# Old vs New Testament



## 660griz (Jul 25, 2013)

In prior run ins with religious folks, christians in this case, I have asked them about rape, murder, and slavery in the bible. A majority say that is the old testament and "we don't use that anymore" or "you are not reading it right". Needless to say, I am stunned, since it is carried with them with the New testament and called the Bible. I then ask about God creating everything. That is in the old testament. "Oh, that is true." They say. So, I am really confused. Is the entire Bible the word of "God" or just the New Testament? Is it considered proper to pick and  choose the parts of the Bible you wish to follow?

"If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."  
I just imagine the Master standing over the slave yelling, "Please get up, Please get up! Come on, I didn't hit you that hard."

Also, which translation is most widely used. King James, NLT, NAB, etc.


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## fulldraw74 (Jul 25, 2013)

http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-old-new-testaments.html


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## 660griz (Jul 25, 2013)

fulldraw74 said:


> http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-old-new-testaments.html



Good stuff. I searched for "slave" on that page. "No matches found."

I did find this. "In both testaments, God reveals Himself to us and how we are to come to Him through Jesus Christ. In both testaments, we find all we need for eternal life and godly living."

Does that mean for godly living, beat your slave, just make sure he/she can get up in a day or two?

Doesn't really answer any of my questions.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2013)

660griz said:


> "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."



I think you are seeing cultural variances.  Lot's of that in the Bible since it was written across 1500 years or so.  However, it is kind-a funny the way it's worded.



660griz said:


> Also, which translation is most widely used. King James, NLT, NAB, etc.



That's a banned topic in the sd&s forum, not sure about down here.

I'm not a real Bible scholar, so I generally use the translation that is near-by when I get the urge to read.  When I look it up online, It is generally NIV.  Everybody has an opinion on that subject, though.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 25, 2013)

660griz said:


> Is the entire Bible the word of "God" ...?



Yes.




660griz said:


> Is it considered proper to pick and  choose the parts of the Bible you wish to follow?



No.




660griz said:


> Also, which translation is most widely used. King James, NLT, NAB, etc.



From polls I've seen:

1.  NIV
2.  KJV
3.  NKJV

... in that order.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 25, 2013)

Research the year of Jubilee. 
Slaves were not to be permanent.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 25, 2013)

90% of the bible toters I know don't even know that those controversal things are in the OT. How God told David to Kill men only in one town and then men women and children in another. Yet they say he is a God of love. I do believe him to be that but believe that the bible is full of atrocities that are attributed to God's command that are really only an attempt to justify one's own personal desires


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## bullethead (Jul 25, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> 90% of the bible toters I know don't even know that those controversal things are in the OT. How God told David to Kill men only in one town and then men women and children in another. Yet they say he is a God of love. I do believe him to be that but believe that the bible is full of atrocities that are attributed to God's command that are really only an attempt to justify one's own personal desires



Always insightful input 1gr8.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 25, 2013)

In light of this discussion I would ask you to read this:

http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=40779


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> ... but believe that the bible is full of atrocities that are attributed to God's command that are really only an attempt to justify one's own personal desires



True. Written by men. Whether they were guided by the "holy spirit", or sucking on a poppy plant, we will never know. What it does seem like, based on activities by religious groups since then, is that it is an attempt to justify the rape, murder,  and pillage of lots of towns and folks. With an occasional justification for a natural disaster. (The big flood). 

I have always thought that religion serves a purpose. Less of a purpose now than it did 4000 years ago. Some folks need it. Some folks can't accept that this life is all there is. That's fine. Prayer, (the power of positive thinking) has been shown to work. Placebos work in some folks too. Where it all falls apart is when the usually logical folks start following the writings or teachings of possible mad men. Man will find a way to exploit.

"Six days shall you do work: in the seventh day is the sabbath, the rest holy to the Lord. Every one that shall do any work on this day, shall die."

What does that mean? I'll die eventually? Duh. 
I'll die immediately? If a christian sees me working on Sunday they should kill me?  
Who writes that stuff? What sane person could read that and say, "Mmmm, that's some good stuff right there." And, that is one of the milder ones with a more "soft" translation. 

We probably laugh at the "If you get your picture taken it will take your soul."


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> In light of this discussion I would ask you to read this:
> 
> http://m.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=40779



Wow!
Old Testament violence "is actually, at its root, in a sense, a loving thing to do," Bethancourt said. 

Hack, stab, hack, I love you man. Hack, stab, hack.

Why did the all powerful God need to send people to do his dirty work? Why didn't he just say, "I got this." Wiggle his nose or nod his head or whatever and bam, bad folks gone. Town empty? Did he just like to watch? Kinda like a good action movie? Strange stuff.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> True. Written by men. Whether they were guided by the "holy spirit", or sucking on a poppy plant, we will never know. What it does seem like, based on activities by religious groups since then, is that it is an attempt to justify the rape, murder,  and pillage of lots of towns and folks. With an occasional justification for a natural disaster. (The big flood).
> 
> I have always thought that religion serves a purpose. Less of a purpose now than it did 4000 years ago. Some folks need it. Some folks can't accept that this life is all there is. That's fine. Prayer, (the power of positive thinking) has been shown to work. Placebos work in some folks too. Where it all falls apart is when the usually logical folks start following the writings or teachings of possible mad men. Man will find a way to exploit.
> 
> ...



People go to their "Happy Place" when reading those writings and tune out all the awful things. They just focus on the enlightening things. I have never been to a church where they have verses posted on the board to be read during the service where it turns out those verses are the ones that talk about slavery,rape,incest,murder etc. Believers intertwine the OT and NT together with the cheerie parts and distance the OT and NT (as if it is two different Gods) when the OT tough love is brought up.


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> People go to their "Happy Place" when reading those writings and tune out all the awful things. They just focus on the enlightening things. I have never been to a church where they have verses posted on the board to be read during the service where it turns out those verses are the ones that talk about slavery,rape,incest,murder etc. Believers intertwine the OT and NT together with the cheerie parts and distance the OT and NT (as if it is two different Gods) when the OT tough love is brought up.



We, non-christians, are lucky they have 'out grown' some of the bible or it would be bad times again. There are still some religions that are just now evolving from the writings of a mad man.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> Wow!
> Old Testament violence "is actually, at its root, in a sense, a loving thing to do," Bethancourt said.
> 
> Hack, stab, hack, I love you man. Hack, stab, hack.
> ...



Moses, David,Joshua etc were all war mongers  and murderers and the stories needed to be embellished with a supernatural invisible friend in order to justify their deeds. It was one more way to keep the easily impressed people in line. Listen to us or God will kill you. He talks to us leaders but does not want to talk to you.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Moses, David,Joshua etc were all war mongers  and murderers and the stories needed to be embellished with a supernatural invisible friend in order to justify their deeds. It was one more way to keep the easily impressed people in line. Listen to us or God will kill you. He talks to us leaders but does not want to talk to you.



This is a perfect point of view on the OT for a non-believer. Obviously I see it otherwise.


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

Tell us how you see it jmharris23. Do you see it like the article?

BTW, my son lives in Molena on 109.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> This is a perfect point of view on the OT for a non-believer. Obviously I see it otherwise.



I understand and this is not directed at you or anyone here specifically, it is just to make a point so I will use "we".

We all think our fathers to be great men. Most are and most of us go through life never thinking any different. As kids there was no one tougher,stronger,faster,smarter than our dads. Sometimes though dads do something stupid and it goes against everything we have thought about them. We defend them to the point of embarrassment and refuse to believe it but having them here in front of us makes the truth more accessible and eventually we find that pedestal to be kicked out from underneath them at times. 
Religion allows that buffer between the good and the bad that our "super dad" does and because we don't get to look him in the eye it is just too easy to get yourself into believing what you want or need to believe rather than the truth. Those OT leaders hacked and murdered their way through the countryside for a few thousand years, the stories of great victories were told throughout the entire time and someone finally decided to to make a love story out of it. Add in some sort of God that says it is all "Ok" and the atrocities are justified, the people obey and the leaders gain more power.
The history of the land tells the story. The embellishments try to justify it.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> 9....believe that the bible is full of atrocities that are attributed to God's command that are really only an attempt to justify one's own personal desires



Wait, what?? I'm just making sure I understand you. I'm not saying you would think it's on equal footing... but like a parent killing their child today and saying that their god told them to do it? They're trying to justify their own personal desires..


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> People go to their "Happy Place" when reading those writings and tune out all the awful things. They just focus on the enlightening things. I have never been to a church where they have verses posted on the board to be read during the service where it turns out those verses are the ones that talk about slavery,rape,incest,murder etc. Believers intertwine the OT and NT together with the cheerie parts and distance the OT and NT (as if it is two different Gods) when the OT tough love is brought up.



An example of the convenience you talked about in another thread.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Moses, David,Joshua etc were all war mongers  and murderers and the stories needed to be embellished with a supernatural invisible friend in order to justify their deeds. It was one more way to keep the easily impressed people in line. Listen to us or God will kill you. He talks to us leaders but does not want to talk to you.



The people that try to do that now-a-days are labelled as crazy and thrown in jail... put to death if they don't kill themselves... yet most of the people that cast the stones at them, commit their lives to the ones from 1900 years ago...


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## HoCoLion91 (Jul 26, 2013)

Are we still fighting wars today because of religious beliefs?  Al Qaeda and other radical groups wage war as often and as violently as the opportunity allows.  They are just as ruthless as any stories in the OT.  I believe the stories of war in the OT are there to prepare us for what we may have to face at sometime.  God wants his people to live in peace and love one another, but when that peace becomes impossible because of others, we must defend ourselves.


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## HoCoLion91 (Jul 26, 2013)

The OT is a history book from that time and the laws they lived by.  Some of those laws are way different than ours today and so they seem ridiculous or stupid. By the same token, if they could read some of today's laws what would they think of our times?


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

HoCoLion91 said:


> The OT is a history book from that time and the laws they lived by.  Some of those laws are way different than ours today and so they seem ridiculous or stupid. By the same token, if they could read some of today's laws what would they think of our times?



I do not have a problem with history books or telling if a law has been out grown. 
My problem is with using a book about ancient atrocities and contradictions as a way to lead one's life now. 

God said, "Go kill this entire town. Men, women, children."
God said, "Thou shalt not kill."


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

HoCoLion91 said:


> Are we still fighting wars today because of religious beliefs?  Al Qaeda and other radical groups wage war as often and as violently as the opportunity allows.  They are just as ruthless as any stories in the OT.  I believe the stories of war in the OT are there to prepare us for what we may have to face at sometime.  God wants his people to live in peace and love one another, but when that peace becomes impossible because of others, we must defend ourselves.



Sometimes the best defense is a good offense huh?


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## HoCoLion91 (Jul 26, 2013)

One example is war, the other is daily living with your neighbors.  He expects us to know the difference.  The thing about war in the OT as compared to modern times is they had no Geneva convention with rules about how to treat prisoners.  They avoided war if possible, but when it came they took no prisoners.  This was common for both sides.  Those who lost and survived paid tribute to the victor.  Only the US destroys its enemies, then rebuilds their country and sends them a check every month afterwards.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> My problem is with using a book about ancient atrocities and contradictions as a way to lead one's life now.



Do you have a problem with these passages?


"So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you ..."

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

" ... love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

HoCoLion91 said:


> One example is war, the other is daily living with your neighbors.  He expects us to know the difference.  The thing about war in the OT as compared to modern times is they had no Geneva convention with rules about how to treat prisoners.  They avoided war if possible, but when it came they took no prisoners.  This was common for both sides.  Those who lost and survived paid tribute to the victor.  Only the US destroys its enemies, then rebuilds their country and sends them a check every month afterwards.



POWs sounds like a moral issue to me. So the morality of it has changed? 

All of what you've said is your take on it... "Speculation." Those things aren't stated in the bible. How could they be, right? So you must draw your own conclusions... and the conclusions you draw are the ones that justifies it for you.... conveniently... It's not a fault that I'm pointing out, but there are MANY different conclusions to draw.


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## HoCoLion91 (Jul 26, 2013)

Of course it's my "take"on it, just as what you write is your take.  And yes they are my conclusions.  I have read the Bible and everything written since, and have come to my conclusions.  They are what I believe and live by everyday. Just like everyone else.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

Everything? Avid reader


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Do you have a problem with these passages?
> 
> "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you ..."


 Not even sure what this means and could get you arrested. 



centerpin fan said:


> "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."


 Why so specific? Why not everybody that needs help? Why is it God Bless America? Why not God Bless the World? 

Even more humorous coming from the same book that cause lots of orphans and widows. 




centerpin fan said:


> " ... love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you."


 This one is just total nonsense in real life and contradicts other parts of the bible. Unless by love they mean kill. From a personal standpoint, if I had enemies.  I would not love them and would secretly pray for them to die a horrible death. Yes, I would hate them that much that I would not rule out any means necessary. 

I think I see what you are getting at...maybe. You are saying that there is good stuff in the bible. I agree. Being a non-believer, I could pull out the good stuff and live buy it and ignore the bad stuff. There are other teachings along the same lines, without all the genocide however. What I am saying/asking, as a believer, how does one ignore the carnage and just pick out the cherries? Is that even 'legal' being that the entire Bible is the word of God?

Also, would you want to live in a world where folks didn't really know to help the folks in need or in danger or hungry, unless they read it in a book? Sorry, obviously rhetorical. Christians obviously want to live in that world. I want folks to be good to one another because they want to be good to one another. Not because they are afraid to go to H3!! or because a book told them too. I also know some folks can't contemplate how we could possibly be good without a book telling us how. I also want folks that do bad to feel bad about it for the rest of their life and not get some salvation becaused they asked for forgiveness and did some hail mary's or whatever. 
I think Christians, by the very nature of their religion, root for the end of time and the destruction of mankind. It just seems to be a depressing way of life. Always wanting to leave here and go to a better place. Praying for the rapture. 
In my case, I just want to enjoy life as much as possible in my short time and help folks around me enjoy life as much as possible.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> I want folks to be good to one another because they want to be good to one another. Not because they are afraid to go to H3!! or because a book told them too. I also know some folks can't contemplate how we could possibly be good without a book telling us how. I also want folks that do bad to feel bad about it for the rest of their life and not get some salvation becaused they asked for forgiveness and did some hail mary's or whatever.



You're going to get stuff like how do we know what is good and bad without a creator that made it that way. Further depressing the outlook on the value of the human brain...


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> Also, would you want to live in a world where folks didn't really know to help the folks in need or in danger or hungry, unless they read it in a book? Sorry, obviously rhetorical. Christians obviously want to live in that world....
> 
> ... I think Christians, by the very nature of their religion, root for the end of time and the destruction of mankind.



You have set up a false construct of Christianity and have chosen to disbelieve that.


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## HoCoLion91 (Jul 26, 2013)

http://www.americanthinker.com/2013/07/killing_in_the_name_of_god.html

This article may be interesting to some of you.  It is a little long, but covers a lot of ground about religion and waging wars.

You should see my house tripleX,  makes the library of congress look like a used book store.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> ... how does one ignore the carnage and just pick out the cherries?



The NT is one big cherry.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Wait, what?? I'm just making sure I understand you. I'm not saying you would think it's on equal footing... but like a parent killing their child today and saying that their god told them to do it? They're trying to justify their own personal desires..


I am saying that the bible is full of stories where someone claims to be doing God's will but is only doing his own will and trying to justify his actions by attempting to make it seem as though God approves.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 26, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I am saying that the bible is full of stories where someone claims to be doing God's will but is only doing his own will and trying to justify his actions by attempting to make it seem as though God approves.



Are you saying that the bible itself tries to show that the god approves of it, or the individual in the story does? If the bible itself tries to show it, then you're saying that you disagree with those parts of the bible, or is it that it uses those stories for another purpose not stated at all?


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You have set up a false construct of Christianity and have chosen to disbelieve that.



You mean chosen to believe? 

What makes you think it is a false construct? Isn't something much much better waiting for christians? Isn't the horrific destruction of mankind in Revelations? 

I see signs held up by gleeful folks saying, "The end of time is near!" They didn't look upset. I know I could find something better to do with my last remaining time on earth.

So, people really don't want to go to heaven and be with their love ones? They want to delay being unbelievably happy for as long as they can?

Is the saying true, "Everybody wants to go to heaven but, nobody wants to die to get there."?


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The NT is one big cherry.



Definitely easier pickings than the old but...still some doosies in there too. 

Didn't Jesus mention something about the old laws should go forward?

"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.  I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  (Matthew 5:17-18)" 

"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.  So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.'  (Matthew 23:1-3)"  

The above was from a christian site explaining how the Old testament must be followed. I found another christian site that stated that is not what Jesus meant. We are to ignore the old testament...for the most part. So, I am trying to get answers for something the christian community can't quite agree on yet. Great!


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> You mean chosen to believe?



Chosen to _believe_ the false construct or _disbelieve_ in true Christianity -- whichever floats your boat.




660griz said:


> What makes you think it is a false construct?



Because Christians don't "root" for the destruction of mankind.  (Satan does, however.)

Also, Christians don't want to live in a world "where folks didn't really know to help the folks in need or in danger or hungry, unless they read it in a book".




660griz said:


> Is the saying true, "Everybody wants to go to heaven but, nobody wants to die to get there."?



That's from a Steven Seagal movie, so I wouldn't put too much faith in it.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> Didn't Jesus mention something about the old laws should go forward?



No.

I think I know the passage you're referring to, but that's not what He said.


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Because Christians don't "root" for the destruction of mankind.  (Satan does, however.)


 Not surprisingly, my logic leads to a different conclusion.



centerpin fan said:


> Also, Christians don't want to live in a world "where folks didn't really know to help the folks in need or in danger or hungry, unless they read it in a book".


 Then why the bible tours? Why the bible?




centerpin fan said:


> That's from a Steven Seagal movie, so I wouldn't put too much faith in it.


Faith? You have me confused with somebody else. I think it is actually from a Reggae song but, the point is, either you want the world to end so you can be happy or you don't want to die. Boiling it all down. If you don't want to die, perhaps there is some doubt about the afterlife?


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## centerpin fan (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> Then why the bible tours? Why the bible?



"Why" what?  




660griz said:


> Faith? You have me confused with somebody else.



You have a lot of faith.  The object of your faith is just different from mine.




660griz said:


> I think it is actually from a Reggae song ...



Makes sense since the Seagal movie was _Marked for Death_, where SS went up against a Jamaican drug lord.




660griz said:


> ... either you want the world to end so you can be happy or you don't want to die.



I'm happy now, and I'll be happy in heaven.  Paul addresses this in 2 Corinthians 4 & 5.


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## 660griz (Jul 26, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm happy now, and I'll be happy in heaven.  Paul addresses this in 2 Corinthians 4 & 5.



I am happy here...at my desk. I am happier at home. If I could leave early and go home...would I. You bet.  Talk to yall Monday.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 26, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Are you saying that the bible itself tries to show that the god approves of it, or the individual in the story does? If the bible itself tries to show it, then you're saying that you disagree with those parts of the bible, or is it that it uses those stories for another purpose not stated at all?


I guess I am saying that the stories compiled, contain stories, now I'm getting confused, what was the question again???? OK, the bible "itself" contains stories written by men who applied God's approval to atrocities. So, no I don't agree with that part. So the individual in the story may even be dead by the time the story was written, but someone tried to make that person look good. For example, David. He at one period was like a pirate, making random raids on anybody. I say pirate because he was representing no one but himself with a band of rebels. Yet he is painted to be a great man. I should find that particular story


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## jmharris23 (Jul 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I understand and this is not directed at you or anyone here specifically, it is just to make a point so I will use "we".
> 
> We all think our fathers to be great men. Most are and most of us go through life never thinking any different. As kids there was no one tougher,stronger,faster,smarter than our dads. Sometimes though dads do something stupid and it goes against everything we have thought about them. We defend them to the point of embarrassment and refuse to believe it but having them here in front of us makes the truth more accessible and eventually we find that pedestal to be kicked out from underneath them at times.
> Religion allows that buffer between the good and the bad that our "super dad" does and because we don't get to look him in the eye it is just too easy to get yourself into believing what you want or need to believe rather than the truth. Those OT leaders hacked and murdered their way through the countryside for a few thousand years, the stories of great victories were told throughout the entire time and someone finally decided to to make a love story out of it. Add in some sort of God that says it is all "Ok" and the atrocities are justified, the people obey and the leaders gain more power.
> The history of the land tells the story. The embellishments try to justify it.



Unless there really is a God of the Bible who is doing what the bible says he is doing. Then, like the article addresses, what you read in the OT makes perfect sense. 

Again it boils down to belief in the bible or disbelief.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 26, 2013)

660griz said:


> Tell us how you see it jmharris23. Do you see it like the article?
> 
> BTW, my son lives in Molena on 109.



Yes. I agree with the stance taken by the article's writer. 

That's cool on your son. I live just off of 109. How long has he lived here? I may know him.


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## bullethead (Jul 26, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Chosen to _believe_ the false construct or _disbelieve_ in true Christianity -- whichever floats your boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now we know what Satan wants.


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## HoCoLion91 (Jul 26, 2013)

Gris, you seem to know the Bible better than most Christians .  You would make a great preacher when you accept it as the Truth.


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## ambush80 (Jul 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You have set up a false construct of Christianity and have chosen to disbelieve that.



What's all this: "Lord come quick!  Save me from my rheumatiz or my whiskey snorting or my porn looking!" I see it all the time.  I bet you would love for him to come down right this second and swing his giant fiery sword and release you from this Earthly suck and at the same time send all the lap dogs of the devil non-believers into the lake of burning garbage.


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## ambush80 (Jul 28, 2013)

HoCoLion91 said:


> Gris, you seem to know the Bible better than most Christians .  You would make a great preacher when you accept it as the Truth.



It gets harder to believe the more you know about it.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 28, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What's all this: "Lord come quick!  Save me from my rheumatiz or my whiskey snorting or my porn looking!" I see it all the time.  I bet you would love for him to come down right this second and swing his giant fiery sword and release you from this Earthly suck and at the same time send all the lap dogs of the devil non-believers into the lake of burning garbage.



I know you weren't addressing this at me but no true follower of Christ wants to see anyone go to H E L L.  There is no pleasure to be found in that.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 28, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> no true follower of Christ wants to see anyone go to H E L L.  There is no pleasure to be found in that.


Where would you prefer the reprobate spirits, both men and angels, to go? Heaven? Would not a true follower of Christ be pleased that he11 was created for this very purpose?


----------



## jmharris23 (Jul 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Where would you prefer the reprobate spirits, both men and angels, to go? Heaven? Would not a true follower of Christ be pleased that he11 was created for this very purpose?



I prefer they not die as reprobates. I prefer to try and share the gospel with them so as to avoid that. I prefer to see God at work in a person and see the Spirit draw them to salvation. 

I realize that some will not do this, and I realize that those who die apart from Christ will spend eternity apart from God, in a place the bible refers to as H E L L. 

But it's heartbreaking and I don't want to see anyone go there. I was under the impression that no one who has the love of Christ in them would prefer to see people go to H E L L. 

I guess I was wrong. Therefore I stand corrected on my previous post. I guess there are Christians who want people to go to H E L L, but I am not one of them.


----------



## ted_BSR (Jul 28, 2013)

660griz said:


> True. Written by men. Whether they were guided by the "holy spirit", or sucking on a poppy plant, we will never know. What it does seem like, based on activities by religious groups since then, is that it is an attempt to justify the rape, murder,  and pillage of lots of towns and folks. With an occasional justification for a natural disaster. (The big flood).
> 
> I have always thought that religion serves a purpose. Less of a purpose now than it did 4000 years ago. Some folks need it. Some folks can't accept that this life is all there is. That's fine. Prayer, (the power of positive thinking) has been shown to work. Placebos work in some folks too. Where it all falls apart is when the usually logical folks start following the writings or teachings of possible mad men. Man will find a way to exploit.
> 
> ...



It means that the human body needs rest. It is not a "do it or else" type of statement. It is meant for the rest and recuperation of our bodies, and minds.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 28, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I guess I was wrong. Therefore I stand corrected on my previous post. I guess there are Christians who want people to go to H E L L, but I am not one of them.


Again I ask, where would you prefer the reprobate go? Heaven is not an option, they are reprobate. God is right and true by definition, God created he11, so it was right for him to do it. So it is right for God to create a place for the reprobate. It appears that you would prefer God to have not done this, but He "works all things after the council of his own will". How would you council him different if you could? Where would you put them? This is a fair question as you are in opposition to the Biblical worldview. Would not a true follower of Christ be wrong to disapprove or be displeased by its existence or purpose ?


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 29, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Again I ask, where would you prefer the reprobate go? Heaven is not an option, they are reprobate. God is right and true by definition, God created he11, so it was right for him to do it. So it is right for God to create a place for the reprobate. It appears that you would prefer God to have not done this, but He "works all things after the council of his own will". How would you council him different if you could? Where would you put them? This is a fair question as you are in opposition to the Biblical worldview. Would not a true follower of Christ be wrong to disapprove or be displeased by its existence or purpose ?



Into the fiery kiln where the vessels of wrath were born.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jul 29, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Again I ask, where would you prefer the reprobate go? Heaven is not an option, they are reprobate. God is right and true by definition, God created he11, so it was right for him to do it. So it is right for God to create a place for the reprobate. It appears that you would prefer God to have not done this, but He "works all things after the council of his own will". How would you council him different if you could? Where would you put them? This is a fair question as you are in opposition to the Biblical worldview. Would not a true follower of Christ be wrong to disapprove or be displeased by its existence or purpose ?




I prefer that God do whatever pleases Him. I would not council Him to do anything other than His own desires and will. I believe that those who die apart from God deserve the H E L L that God created for them. 

That said I personally take no pleasure in the eternal punishment of anyone. That's what I said in my post above and now I've said it again. 

If fact, one more time, slowly: it breaks my heart that anyone spend eternity apart from God. I take NO pleasure in their demise. None. 


This does not mean I disagree with God. It simply means that I find no pleasure in it. I would liken it to the death of a child. If God chooses to call a young child home before they live out a good, long, full life, then I am in no place to argue with his sovereign decision. Just because I won't argue with it, and just because I know that it was his good and perfect will to do what pleases him, that does not mean that I will be pleased in the death of that child. 

I believe i have made myself abundantly clear here. There is no need to try to continue to twist my words.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I prefer that God do whatever pleases Him. I would not council Him to do anything other than His own desires and will. I believe that those who die apart from God deserve the H E L L that God created for them.
> 
> That said I personally take no pleasure in the eternal punishment of anyone. That's what I said in my post above and now I've said it again.
> 
> ...




Why does it make you feel that way? Because it's terribly evil to do that to someone.... When all he had to do was think up a better plan that wasn't so mean. Maybe not nice, but not as evil. It was your god that came up with the entire idea of sin and he11. Take a look at the he11 thread...


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Why does it make you feel that way? Because it's terribly evil to do that to someone.... When all he had to do was think up a better plan that wasn't so mean. Maybe not nice, but not as evil. It was your god that came up with the entire idea of sin and he11. Take a look at the he11 thread...



They're are alot of symbolic numbers used in the Bible. 
40 days 40 nights,  7times 7 times 7, wandering in the desert vfor 4o days. Seems plenty of time to burn in a fire that doesn't consume you.

Is it a sin to criticize how god metes out punishment?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Why does it make you feel that way? Because it's terribly evil to do that to someone.... When all he had to do was think up a better plan that wasn't so mean. Maybe not nice, but not as evil. It was your god that came up with the entire idea of sin and he11. Take a look at the he11 thread...





ambush80 said:


> They're are alot of symbolic numbers used in the Bible.
> 40 days 40 nights,  7times 7 times 7, wandering in the desert vfor 4o days. Seems plenty of time to burn in a fire that doesn't consume you.
> 
> Is it a sin to criticize how god metes out punishment?



I know I've asked this question to triple X before, but what do you guys think God should have done with people that didn't want anything to do with Him?

Another question, what gives either one of you the authority to decide how/why punishments are given to mankind?


----------



## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> It means that the human body needs rest. It is not a "do it or else" type of statement. It is meant for the rest and recuperation of our bodies, and minds.



Interesting translation. Where did you find that one? 
I picked the least violent translation I could find. Most said, "whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death." 

If we have errored in translating such dire warnings as "you will die" and "be put to death", makes you wonder what else we are not translating correctly. 

Perhaps, some folks are changing the translation once they realize that the teachings cannot be followed in a civil society. Just a thought.


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## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I know I've asked this question to triple X before, but what do you guys think God should have done with people that didn't want anything to do with Him?



Nothing. What is wrong with "worship me, believe in me and live forever in a really nice place with no sadness or don't and just die."?

Like with kids you say, "Come with me and get ice cream or stay here and get nothing."
I mean, I created them but, I wouldn't say, "Come with me and get ice cream or burn in H3!! you ungratefull little demons."


----------



## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

Both the below scenarios assume there is a God.

Scenario1: Serial killer has been caught. He admits to killing and raping 50 children over the past year. He is sentenced to death. While on death row, he finds and accepts Jesus as his savior. Becomes a born again Christian. 

Scenario2: Atheist has devoted his entire life to helping people. He/she has never harmed a fly and is a devoted spouse and mother/father. 

They both die. The atheist was killed trying to keep the serial murderer from raping and killing another child. 

Which one gets to heaven? This is obviously an easy answer but hard to say...right?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I know I've asked this question to triple X before, but what do you guys think God should have done with people that didn't want anything to do with Him?
> 
> Another question, what gives either one of you the authority to decide how/why punishments are given to mankind?



When I point out stuff like that it is because it is evidence to me that your god is not who he claims to be. Punishments to mankind are a prime example of that. Banishment to any place like what he11 is described is just evil.... Of your all loving god...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> Nothing. What is wrong with "worship me, believe in me and live forever in a really nice place with no sadness or don't and just die."?



And actually, it's not clear that this is not what the bible says happens... Christians don't even agree on this...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> Interesting translation. Where did you find that one?
> I picked the least violent translation I could find. Most said, "whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death."
> 
> If we have errored in translating such dire warnings as "you will die" and "be put to death", makes you wonder what else we are not translating correctly.
> ...




Nah... it was all translated perfectly... no issues with translation.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> Nothing. What is wrong with "worship me, believe in me and live forever in a really nice place with no sadness or don't and just die."?


You do "just die", but like it or not, you are a soul, and your soul lives on for eternity.



> Like with kids you say, "Come with me and get ice cream or stay here and get nothing."
> I mean, I created them but, I wouldn't say, "Come with me and get ice cream or burn in H3!! you ungratefull little demons."


The ice cream is God's presence, and "getting nothing" is the same as "not God's presence" and the worst thing that could happen to your soul.


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## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You do "just die", but like it or not, you are a soul, and your soul lives on for eternity.
> 
> 
> The ice cream is God's presence, and "getting nothing" is the same as "not God's presence" and the worst thing that could happen to your soul.



My soul doesn't have that now. If that is the worst thing that can happen. I am good. "Might not want to spread that around though. Church may not be able to make payroll."


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You do "just die", but like it or not, you are a soul, and your soul lives on for eternity.



Then I should remember my before life because my soul was around for eternity.


----------



## jmharris23 (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Why does it make you feel that way? Because it's terribly evil to do that to someone.... When all he had to do was think up a better plan that wasn't so mean. Maybe not nice, but not as evil. It was your god that came up with the entire idea of sin and he11. Take a look at the he11 thread...



 No. I have been what I think is abundantly clear here. I believe that those who refuse the grace of God deserve h e l l. I believe that God has done the right thing in giving those who refuse him exactly what they wanted. Simply this is what h e l l is, an eternal place for those who want nothing to do with God. 

But I believe an eternity apart from God is an awful thing, and I take no pleasure in anyone experiencing that. Even if they chose it. 

I'll give you another analogy. I have 4 children. They all came from mothers who chose to do drugs and sleep around rather than care for their children. They deserved to have their children taken from them and placed in a home that will love and care for them. A judge made the decision to do just that. It was the right decision and I am thankful for the opportunity to be the father they would have never had. BUT, I take no PLEASURE in the fact that these mothers lost their children.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> No. I have been what I think is abundantly clear here. I believe that those who refuse the grace of God deserve h e l l. I believe that God has done the right thing in giving those who refuse him exactly what they wanted. Simply this is what h e l l is, an eternal place for those who want nothing to do with God.
> 
> But I believe an eternity apart from God is an awful thing, and I take no pleasure in anyone experiencing that. Even if they chose it.
> 
> I'll give you another analogy. I have 4 children. They all came from mothers who chose to do drugs and sleep around rather than care for their children. They deserved to have their children taken from them and placed in a home that will love and care for them. A judge made the decision to do just that. It was the right decision and I am thankful for the opportunity to be the father they would have never had. BUT, I take no PLEASURE in the fact that these mothers lost their children.



In that analogy, if you were god, you could snap your fingers and the mothers wouldn't be druggies. There doesn't have to be drugs in that little world of yours at all. And bypass the issue all together.. In YOUR ANALOGY... if you made drugs and addictions the way that they are... I would say shame on you. If you left those two things out of the equation, those mothers would still have their children.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> In that analogy, if you were god, you could snap your fingers and the mothers wouldn't be druggies. There doesn't have to be drugs in that little world of yours at all. And bypass the issue all together.. In YOUR ANALOGY... if you made drugs and addictions the way that they are... I would say shame on you. If you left those two things out of the equation, those mothers would still have their children.



Ok....obviously this is an exercise in futility on both our parts. Have a great day.


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> Both the below scenarios assume there is a God.
> 
> Scenario1: Serial killer has been caught. He admits to killing and raping 50 children over the past year. He is sentenced to death. While on death row, he finds and accepts Jesus as his savior. Becomes a born again Christian.
> 
> ...



The person with the relationship with God goes to heaven. 

"Jesus didn't come here to make bad people good He came here to make dead people live" 

Both the serial killer rapist and the atheist have sin in their lives, it matters not how much, they both missed the mark of perfection. The only one of those two that goes to heaven is the one that accepts that his sin is paid for by Christ.


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## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I believe that those who refuse the grace of God deserve h e l l.



Went to church for many years. Entire family is christian. Still, it shocks to hear this. Not sure why. I should be used to it. I guess it sounds like something you would hear back in the witch hunt days. 

Does anybody say that outloud and think that makes any sense? Boggles the mind.

What ya in for? "Refusing the grace of God." 

Did I ask for a God? Did I ask to know about a God? I have all the Gods demanding stuff from me or...really really bad things happen. I think the God(s) have a self esteem issue. 
Be my friend and love me,  or you are tortured forever. I really just don't get it.


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> My soul doesn't have that now. If that is the worst thing that can happen. I am good. "Might not want to spread that around though. Church may not be able to make payroll."



Yes you do. God's presence is here on earth, He didn't create mankind and earth and then leave.


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> When I point out stuff like that it is because it is evidence to me that your god is not who he claims to be. Punishments to mankind are a prime example of that. Banishment to any place like what he11 is described is just evil.... Of your all loving god...



How is it evil? You don't believe in God, and you don't want to spend eternity with Him, so you get to go exactly where you want to go. Don't blame God because that's not going to be a picnic, you were invited to the picnic and told that the woods, were you choose to stay, meant that the bugs were going to bite you.


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## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Yes you do. God's presence is here on earth, He didn't create mankind and earth and then leave.



Prove it.  

Just kidding.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 29, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I prefer that God do whatever pleases Him. I would not council Him to do anything other than His own desires and will. I believe that those who die apart from God deserve the H E L L that God created for them.
> 
> That said I personally take no pleasure in the eternal punishment of anyone. That's what I said in my post above and now I've said it again.
> 
> ...


I understand you. Let me also be clear. I am pleased that reprobate spirits, both men and angels, go to he11. I am pleased that God actively causes endless torment there. 

It was not my desire to twist your words. You left me no wiggle room with your "no true follower of Christ" statement.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> How is it evil? You don't believe in God, and you don't want to spend eternity with Him, so you get to go exactly where you want to go. Don't blame God because that's not going to be a picnic, you were invited to the picnic and told that the woods, were you choose to stay, meant that the bugs were going to bite you.



It's evil to create that system. It's totally unnecessary. It won't be a picnic because I'm going to be at the mercy of satan (another of god's creations) without god protecting me... I've gone over it 12 times already. 

You just contradicted yourself though. I don't want to spend any time with him right now. I denounced the holy spirit in the same spot that I accepted it... so he should consider my heart hard and leave me... and I'm fine. So he's left me or he hasn't?


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> It's evil to create that system. It's totally unnecessary. It won't be a picnic because I'm going to be at the mercy of satan (another of god's creations) without god protecting me... I've gone over it 12 times already.


If it's evil, tell me how it would be good? ( and indifference has already been explained by the fact that you are a soul and your soul is eternal.) 

You're not going to disappear, because you're an eternal soul, you're not going to heaven because you don't want to, besides he11(not being in God's presence), what else is there?



> You just contradicted yourself though. I don't want to spend any time with him right now. I denounced the holy spirit in the same spot that I accepted it... so he should consider my heart hard and leave me... and I'm fine. So he's left me or he hasn't?


I'm not seeing a contradiction.

You don't have to spend any time with Him right now, that doesn't mean that His Spirit isn't present on earth. Like I said in an earlier post, God didn't create the earth and mankind and then leave.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

He can destroy me... which the bible says he does. If my soul is eternal, and I will know where my soul is after I die, then why don't I know where my soul was before I was born?


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> He can destroy me... which the bible says he does. If my soul is eternal, and I will know where my soul is after I die, then why don't I know where my soul was before I was born?



Maybe a better word for me to use is "endless". Your soul is endless. I think eternal is the wrong word.

Either way, you live on after you die. So based on that premis.....



			
				stringmusic said:
			
		

> You're not going to disappear, because you're an eternal soul, you're not going to heaven because you don't want to, besides he11(not being in God's presence), what else is there?


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> He can destroy me... which the bible says he does. If my soul is eternal, and I will know where my soul is after I die, then why don't I know where my soul was before I was born?



BTW, what's the chapter and verse that states God destroys unbelievers and they are no longer a soul?


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## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> BTW, what's the chapter and verse that states God destroys unbelievers and they are no longer a soul?



He has to have a soul. What else is he going to torture for eternity?


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> He has to have a soul. What else is he going to torture for eternity?


He saying the bible says that God destroys unbelievers and I would imagine he's making the implication that means they no longer have a soul.

I never said he didn't have or didn't have to have a soul.

Just FYI, I don't believe people have a soul, I believe people are souls, that have a body.(to paraphrase a quote by C.S. Lewis)


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## 660griz (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Just FYI, I don't believe people have a soul, I believe people are souls, that have a body.(to paraphrase a quote by C.S. Lewis)



A body with a soul. Soul with a body. Tomaato Tomahto.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> BTW, what's the chapter and verse that states God destroys unbelievers and they are no longer a soul?



1g8blder referenced it in the he11 thread.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Maybe a better word for me to use is "endless". Your soul is endless. I think eternal is the wrong word.
> 
> Either way, you live on after you die. So based on that premis.....



Endless soul, but it had a beginning? Can you show me the ch and verse where it clarifies endless/eternal souls?


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 29, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What's all this: "Lord come quick!  Save me from my rheumatiz or my whiskey snorting or my porn looking!" I see it all the time.  I bet you would love for him to come down right this second and swing his giant fiery sword and release you from this Earthly suck and at the same time send all the lap dogs of the devil non-believers into the lake of burning garbage.



No. Totally unbiblical. 

Unfortunately, I believe you have seen some that fit this description.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 29, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It gets harder to believe the more you know about it.



Once again, no. 

But if you would prefer, we can each all paint each other with broad brushes and laugh at the generalizations we make


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 29, 2013)

660griz said:


> Both the below scenarios assume there is a God.
> 
> Scenario1: Serial killer has been caught. He admits to killing and raping 50 children over the past year. He is sentenced to death. While on death row, he finds and accepts Jesus as his savior. Becomes a born again Christian.
> 
> ...



Not hard for me to say at all. 
If God is holy, all sin must be paid for to be in his presence. 
Think of it this way, if you have a white sheet and it only has one speck of mud on it, is it clean? (Think atheist)

If you have a filthy sheet and you bleach it in the washing machine, is it clean? (Think murderer)


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## bullethead (Jul 29, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I know I've asked this question to triple X before, but what do you guys think God should have done with people that didn't want anything to do with Him?


Why does he have to do anything for us? Can't letting us die be enough? Is it not absurd to create people (playing along for arguments sake) full well knowing they are not followers and the punishing them for following their destiny?



stringmusic said:


> Another question, what gives either one of you the authority to decide how/why punishments are given to mankind?



A strong free mind that asks sensible questions in order to try to decipher senselessness is a good quality to posses.


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## ambush80 (Jul 30, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I know I've asked this question to triple X before, but what do you guys think God should have done with people that didn't want anything to do with Him?
> 
> Another question, what gives either one of you the authority to decide how/why punishments are given to mankind?



I wipe out a bunch of people, not quite as exquisitely as god does. I suppose I could if my holy book said to.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> A strong free mind that asks sensible questions in order to try to decipher senselessness is a good quality to posses.




Exactly. I'm not trying to say he did it wrong. I'm saying that the way it is written in the bible makes absolutely no sense to me. Not even enough sense for me to disregard the parts I don't get and have faith in the rest.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> A strong free mind that asks sensible questions in order to try to decipher senselessness is a good quality to posses.



So you agree your freedom to question God is a good thing. 
Now you use that freedom to say he is not good. 

Makes sense.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 30, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> So you agree your freedom to question God is a good thing.
> Now you use that freedom to say he is not good.
> 
> Makes sense.



No, that is what you want it to say.

I question everything that does not make sense to me. I am not questioning a God. I am questioning the writers that tried to make these senseless things seem like they are from a God. I question why they limit their God, then I realize that their hands are tied. They can only go so far with the God like claims until it catches up with them.

No one has granted me that freedom.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 30, 2013)

660griz said:


> Interesting translation. Where did you find that one?
> I picked the least violent translation I could find. Most said, "whoever does any work on the sabbath day shall surely be put to death."
> 
> If we have errored in translating such dire warnings as "you will die" and "be put to death", makes you wonder what else we are not translating correctly.
> ...



I need a verse quotation there to read it in context.

Hebrew to English by way of Latin can be tricky.


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## bigreddwon (Jul 30, 2013)

The bible is a horred book, if it were made into a movie, its closest equivalent would be a cross between a Terinteno moive and Caligula. That is if they actually followed the bibles every word. They never do. Its some sanitarty ' green mile' version. 

 I was blown away the first time I read it at the sheer number of storys' that leaders of my church NEVER read or talked about. The second time I read it I realized WHY they dont. It would shake far too many apples from the tree, loose members, lose money. Botton line. 

In the NT Jesus clearly instructs everyone the old laws still apply. The church realized how hard the OT was to 'live with' so they 'softened' it with the other versions. Still being barbarian goat hearders its still not a disney story, but its not AS bad as the OT. The church also went on a full scsle PR campaigne to attempt to cherry pick verses to reinforce the interpertain that he somehow said to not worry about the ot. Weak at best, disingenuous all the way. 

Religion was created to keep poor people from killing the rich, to control the masses. 

When Athiests really want to destroy Christianity,  they will go on a nationwide, worldwide campaign to make 'Christians' READ the bible. That will be the end. The church should be very thankfull that a great majority of its parishioners are absolutly ignorant about what the bible actualy says.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 31, 2013)

No. Jesus came to fulfill the law, which he did. 
Luke 16:16 Jesus says the law and the prophets were until John, but now the kingdom of heaven is preached.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 31, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You have set up a false construct of Christianity and have chosen to disbelieve that.



Well when you can't argue with the truth, where else is there to go but lies.  Simple, but true.


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## 660griz (Aug 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well when you can't argue with the truth, where else is there to go but lies.  Simple, but true.



Truth based on what?


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 2, 2013)

660griz said:


> Truth based on what?



Gee Griz you tell me what you base truth on.  You're with the camp that holds truth is relative not objective.  I have no idea what you base truth on.  Some of you guys base it on "feelings", others on " instinct" and others deny truth exists at all.   Are you guys too ignorant to realize that by denying there is an objective external source to truth, you destroy your ability to affirm or deny anything?


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gee Griz you tell me what you base truth on.  You're with the camp that holds truth is relative not objective.  I have no idea what you base truth on.  Some of you guys base it on "feelings", others on " instinct" and others deny truth exists at all.   Are you guys too ignorant to realize that by denying there is an objective external source to truth, you destroy your ability to affirm or deny anything?



Someone that claims that there is an objective external source has got to prove such a source exists.
Anyone can make such a claim, and lots do, but not a single person has ever been able to back up such a source exists let alone narrow it down to a specific source.

Truth is relative. Morals are relative. Ethics are relative. Every single one of them has changed in the history of our Country and has changed in the history of the world and even today in modern times differ from other regions and places on earth. 
It is man who decides these things not any god and certainly not "your" god. If so your god's handbook would not be littered with violations for each.
The meme thread lists a bunch of them from YOUR God, go dispute them.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Someone that claims that there is an objective external source has got to prove such a source exists.
> Anyone can make such a claim, and lots do, but not a single person has ever been able to back up such a source exists let alone narrow it down to a specific source.
> 
> Truth is relative. Morals are relative. Ethics are relative. Every single one of them has changed in the history of our Country and has changed in the history of the world and even today in modern times differ from other regions and places on earth.
> ...



Will we end our current segregation in our lifetimes? Maybe.... Maybe we will throw away the idea that we need a men's and women's restroom... Women may feel at some point that it's not equal treatment because men get urinals and they don't. In our children's lifetimes, it may be perfectly fine for men and women to share a restroom... Then BANG... new moral/ethical standard...


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 2, 2013)

bigreddwon said:


> The bible is a horred book, if it were made into a movie, its closest equivalent would be a cross between a Terinteno moive and Caligula. That is if they actually followed the bibles every word. They never do. Its some sanitarty ' green mile' version.



And yet not only has Christianity grown, it has flourished.  Go figure?



bigreddwon said:


> I was blown away the first time I read it at the sheer number of storys' that leaders of my church NEVER read or talked about. The second time I read it I realized WHY they dont. It would shake far too many apples from the tree, loose members, lose money. Botton line.



Maybe you should read it again and hopefully comprehend it.  One third of the entire human population is Christian.  Which is more reasonable, They got it right or you got it right?  



bigreddwon said:


> In the NT Jesus clearly instructs everyone the old laws still apply. The church realized how hard the OT was to 'live with' so they 'softened' it with the other versions. Still being barbarian goat hearders its still not a disney story, but its not AS bad as the OT. The church also went on a full scsle PR campaigne to attempt to cherry pick verses to reinforce the interpertain that he somehow said to not worry about the ot. Weak at best, disingenuous all the way.



Again I would suggest reading focused toward comprehending the entire meta narrative especially since you are so revulsed by cherry picking verses.  Maybe then you can come back and make a truthfully accurate statement.



bigreddwon said:


> Religion was created to keep poor people from killing the rich, to control the masses.



Is this someone else's quote our just your opinion?



bigreddwon said:


> When Athiests really want to destroy Christianity,  they will go on a nationwide, worldwide campaign to make 'Christians' READ the bible. That will be the end. The church should be very thankfull that a great majority of its parishioners are absolutly ignorant about what the bible actualy says.



Let's see,  hmmmmm.  Has that been tried before?  Why yes, I believe it has.  You may want to read a bit of history there Freddy Boot.  You're have the uncanny ability to appear less educated and less intelligent with each post.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Truth is relative


Is it true that truth is relative?


----------



## JFS (Aug 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I have no idea what you base truth on.



I think if we just eliminated revelation from the list people wouldn't be that far apart.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And yet not only has Christianity grown, it has flourished.  Go figure?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you treat people in your church that disagree with you on something that the bible says like this?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 2, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Is it true that truth is relative?



No, its an absolute truth that truth is absolutely relative...


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 2, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> No, its an absolute truth that truth is absolutely relative...


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And yet not only has Christianity grown, it has flourished.  Go figure?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you count yourself among Jehovah's Witness and Mormons?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Someone that claims that there is an objective external source has got to prove such a source exists.
> Anyone can make such a claim, and lots do, but not a single person has ever been able to back up such a source exists let alone narrow it down to a specific source.
> 
> Truth is relative. Morals are relative. Ethics are relative. Every single one of them has changed in the history of our Country and has changed in the history of the world and even today in modern times differ from other regions and places on earth.
> ...



You still don't get it.  Truth is either objective and exclusive or relative and inclusive.  You say it is relative thus inclusive.  If that is the case then you are correct to say that there is no God, but I am equally correct to say that there is a God, in fact everyone is correct in anything they say.  It's all relative right?  Do you see the absurdity of it all.  Once truth becomes relative it ceases to exist, because truth by definition implies false therefore it must be exclusive and objective.  

But you don't really believe that, because if you really thought truth was relative why bother even discussing, not just God, but anything.  It's all true.  But you do bother.  You spent time on this board arguing that Atheism is true and Theism is false.  The fact is you are not practicing what you preach.  You want truth to be relative when applied to you and your morality, but hypocritically want to hold others to an objective truth....at least your special definition of it.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Is it true that truth is relative?



Relatively


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You still don't get it.  Truth is either objective and exclusive or relative and inclusive.  You say it is relative thus inclusive.  If that is the case then you are correct to say that there is no God, but I am equally correct to say that there is a God, in fact everyone is correct in anything they say.  It's all relative right?  Do you see the absurdity of it all.  Once truth becomes relative it ceases to exist, because truth by definition implies false therefore it must be exclusive and objective.
> 
> But you don't really believe that, because if you really thought truth was relative why bother even discussing, not just God, but anything.  It's all true.  But you do bother.  You spent time on this board arguing that Atheism is true and Theism is false.  The fact is you are not practicing what you preach.  You want truth to be relative when applied to you and your morality, but hypocritically want to hold others to an objective truth....at least your special definition of it.


There is no god, all the weird double speak in the world won't change that. Your god exists just as much as Zeus. How ya feel about ol Zeus?


----------



## bullethead (Aug 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You still don't get it.  Truth is either objective and exclusive or relative and inclusive.  You say it is relative thus inclusive.  If that is the case then you are correct to say that there is no God, but I am equally correct to say that there is a God, in fact everyone is correct in anything they say.  It's all relative right?  Do you see the absurdity of it all.  Once truth becomes relative it ceases to exist, because truth by definition implies false therefore it must be exclusive and objective.
> 
> But you don't really believe that, because if you really thought truth was relative why bother even discussing, not just God, but anything.  It's all true.  But you do bother.  You spent time on this board arguing that Atheism is true and Theism is false.  The fact is you are not practicing what you preach.  You want truth to be relative when applied to you and your morality, but hypocritically want to hold others to an objective truth....at least your special definition of it.



Now SFD I am convinced you like to ramble on blabbing about things that do not really go together except in your own mind. You jump to conclusions based off of what you want the outcome to be.

You can search through every post I have ever made, every thread I have ever started and you are not going to find one where I have said Atheism is true.
I have clearly stated my thoughts about truth, morality,and ethics in depth on here in threads and you  still put your own spin on it.
I don't base my thoughts solely off of an everybody is right mentality. I have stated numerous times that I feel they are all based off of various factors that have been proven to influence these things and change them.
You can say they are given to us by some Irish Unicorn in a fur suit that plays the flute while dancing a jig. I know that is not the case(despite you telling me I think differently) because I base my findings off of real influences. Unfortunately your God, like that talented Unicorn, does not make the cut for me though I am open to any information that could change my mind. Since no one has been able to provide any evidence of either I have to revert back to the examples that have been shown to influence all of these things.
If you are telling me there is an external force outside of our world that has instilled these qualities in all of us I want to know who it is. I know that had you been born elsewhere on this planet there is a great chance you would be arguing differently about some other god or some other thing being responsible for those things.

I want to see some proof along the lines of a dozen infants being abandoned on islands deserted by all other humans and outside influences and survived to adulthood to all have the exact same qualities regarding morals, ethics, and an innocent knowledge of ultimate truth. I'd love to see these isolated people having the otherwise un-influenced except solely by God given qualities.
Unfortunately that would not happen. Each will base all of those things off of personal thoughts and experiences, wants and needs because there is no other influence. There is a heck of a good chance that when you roll up in your kayak to interview one of them, they are gonna crack your head open with a coconut and eat your brains.
Each of the 12 will be different from each other.
They will all be different than individuals raised on islands with no outside influence except for one family.
And they will all be different than individuals raised on islands with no outside influence except for a society built from multiple families.

I am not arguing that these things do not come from an external source although I am 99.99999% convinced that such a source is not an intelligent being that exists beyond our parameters. What I am saying is that I know for a fact that you cannot prove any of it comes from an ultimate external source that is called a god and for darn sure can't prove it comes from the god you worship despite all that you claim to know about such a deity.

The absurdity of it all is that people will tell me all about an external source, they will give me every single detail about said source but in the end not a single one of them can actually show the source. And the source that they do provide, through writings in a book, is THE WORST example of truth, morals and ethics that has ever seen the face of this earth and is probably the reason why it was banished to some spiritual prison off in Never-Never Land in the first place.
Your external source should practice what you preach. Your version is better than what the one in the Bible has shown to be. If it's examples are to be followed then no wonder the world is in chaos.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 3, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Do you count yourself among Jehovah's Witness and Mormons?



No, but that would make an interesting thread if you care to start it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 3, 2013)

bigreddwon said:


> There is no god, all the weird double speak in the world won't change that. Your god exists just as much as Zeus. How ya feel about ol Zeus?



That's an opinion.  Care to expound on it with any logic or reasonable dialog?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Your external source should practice what you preach. Your version is better than what the one in the Bible has shown to be. If it's examples are to be followed then no wonder the world is in chaos.



Well if you like my version better maybe you should go back to my source and read it without any presuppositions, because obviously my version (and that of many others) has created a conflict in how you view the message.  Just read The Gospel of John and earnestly ask God to reveal it to you whether it is true.  I have been praying for your epiphany that you said you have been waiting for and I will continue to pray that it comes.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's an opinion.  Care to expound on it with any logic or reasonable dialog?



Logic... we KNOW Zeus was made up. By man. We KNOW the god of Abraham was made up as well. By man. Your god is just as real as the other gods man has made up. THATS logic.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well if you like my version better maybe you should go back to my source and read it without any presuppositions, because obviously my version (and that of many others) has created a conflict in how you view the message.  Just read The Gospel of John and earnestly ask God to reveal it to you whether it is true.  I have been praying for your epiphany that you said you have been waiting for and I will continue to pray that it comes.



Been there. Done that.
Have read the Bible,and few versions to boot, a few times. 
I have read John a few times.

Is it that I have not read it right?
Is it that I have not been sincere enough?
Is it that I cannot possibly understand it(even when I was a devout Christian) and am not worthy?
Or is it that God has answered your prayers and my prayers but his answer was NO?
Or is it that it is all not what it is claimed to be and I am living breathing proof that everything believers claim just does not happen?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 4, 2013)

bigreddwon said:


> Logic... we KNOW Zeus was made up. By man. We KNOW the god of Abraham was made up as well. By man. Your god is just as real as the other gods man has made up. THATS logic.



I would challenge you to if not prove, at least offer evidence to what you KNOW, because without evidence it's just another opinion.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 4, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Been there. Done that.
> Have read the Bible,and few versions to boot, a few times.
> I have read John a few times.
> 
> ...




Or is it that you are wrong.  I'm still praying for you brother.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's an opinion.  Care to expound on it with any logic or reasonable dialog?



You ignore logic. 



bigreddwon said:


> Logic... we KNOW Zeus was made up. By man. We KNOW the god of Abraham was made up as well. By man. Your god is just as real as the other gods man has made up. THATS logic.



Like you ignored this. 



SemperFiDawg said:


> I would challenge you to if not prove, at least offer evidence to what you KNOW, because without evidence it's just another opinion.




The burden of proof lies with you. You know as well as anyome else that Zeus was made up. Along with any other deity of the past several civilizations. 

Do you believe in any other gods exsistanc?  Yes or no!??? What method did you use to come to your answer? Logic, common sence?  Apply whatever you used to determine if Zeus was real in evaluating your god, if your honest you'll come to the same conclusion. 

Youll either be an Atheist or youll have a few more gods to worship.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Or is it that you are wrong.  I'm still praying for you brother.



I would challenge you to if not prove, at least offer evidence to what you KNOW, because without evidence it's just another opinion. 
Hey! yours fits here too!


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 4, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I would challenge you to if not prove, at least offer evidence to what you KNOW, because without evidence it's just another opinion.
> Hey! yours fits here too!



Okey Dokey.  Here's two.  As soon as you refute them with evidence or logic there's several more we can discuss.

1)


Everything that exists has an explanation of its existence, either in the necessity of its own nature or in an external cause.

If the universe has an explanation of its existence, that explanation is God.

The universe exists.

Therefore, the universe has an explanation of its existence 

Therefore, the explanation of the universe’s existence is God 

2)

If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.

Objective moral values and duties do exist.

Therefore, God exists.

3)


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 4, 2013)

bigreddwon said:


> You ignore logic.



No.  I just haven't seen any.  Cut n paste clip art of someone else's thoughts?  Yes.  Opinions (yours or someone else's...who knows)? Yes.  Any evidence of logic or reasoning from you personally to support said clip art and opinions? No.





bigreddwon said:


> The burden of proof lies with you.



Actually it lies with you.  You made the statement,you own it; unless you are not as good as your word.

So, you were in the process of explaining how you KNOW the God of Abraham was "made up"......


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 4, 2013)

Much better to cut and paste bible verses.  That's original thought.......


----------



## bullethead (Aug 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Okey Dokey.  Here's two.  As soon as you refute them with evidence or logic there's several more we can discuss.
> 
> 1)
> 
> ...



You assert a God is the explanation.
Prove it is a God, then prove it is your God.
If God exists, then who created God?



SemperFiDawg said:


> 2)
> 
> If God does not exist, objective moral values and duties do not exist.
> 
> ...



LOL, more assertions. Insert any make believe deities and you cannot argue against them either using your method.

Your argument is an argument for belief in a god, not for the existence of a god.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 4, 2013)

bullethead said:


> You assert a God is the explanation.
> Prove it is a God, then prove it is your God.
> If God exists, then who created God?
> 
> ...



Waiting on you to offer a refutation of either.


----------



## bullethead (Aug 4, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Waiting on you to offer a refutation of either.



I am still waiting for proof of evidence from you, not assertions.
In order to make an assertion valid, you must first prove that what you are asserting exists.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 4, 2013)

bigreddwon said:


> You ignore logic.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





SemperFiDawg said:


> No.  I just haven't seen any.  Cut n paste clip art of someone else's thoughts?  Yes.  Opinions (yours or someone else's...who knows)? Yes.  Any evidence of logic or reasoning from you personally to support said clip art and opinions? No.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Listen... Carefully....... A n s w e r the  Z E U S question, in detail and as honestly as you can. Oooooookay? You've skipped it twice and replaced the answer with lame insults and dramatic tales of boot camp. Your not fooling anyone. 

Answer the question about Zeus. Honestly. 

If that's not your cup of tea, substitute Poseidon. Or RA. I'm easy dude. Flexible.  

You, and your kind sing from the freakin mountaintops about this _god_. I didn't invent him, I don't _believe_ in him.

You do. 

You say, you have proof he exists. 

I say you'd have a better chance providing Harry Potters real. So ya know, I can't prove he not real. Get it? See how that worked? I know a lady invented him, wrote a big book lots of people read, and enjoyed. If I told my child ten times a day he is god, for twenty years. 

Two things would happen. 1. She'd believe Harry Potter is a god. 2. You couldn't prove he didn't exist to her, and shed be better off. Harry Potter never supported slavery, rape, MASS murder, incest or cannibalism       .  





> Deuteronomy 28:53-57
> Because of the suffering that your enemy will inflict on you during the siege, you will eat the fruit of the womb, the flesh of the sons and daughters the Lord your God has given you. Even the most gentle and sensitive man among you will have no compassion on his own brother or the wife he loves or his surviving children, and he will not give to one of them any of the flesh of his children that he is eating. It will be all he has left because of the suffering your enemy will inflict on you during the siege of all your cities. The most gentle and sensitive woman among you - so sensitive and gentle that she would not venture to touch the ground with the sole of her foot - will begrudge the husband she loves and her own son or daughter the afterbirth from her womb and the children she bears. For she intends to eat them secretly during the siege and in the distress that your enemy will inflict on you in your cities.
> Lev 26:29
> You will eat the flesh of your sons and the flesh of your daughters.
> ...






Hey, I did a little copy n past for ya.


----------



## drippin' rock (Aug 5, 2013)

Wow.  I have to say in all my years of Sunday school and church, I never encountered those verses. 

I know the answer though.  The stories in the old testament, no matter how vile and unacceptable, are used to show how God uses imperfect people and imperfect situations to achieve his plan.  Therefore it is ok to disregard the bad parts of the OT and NT use only the good parts.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 5, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Relatively


So your statement that "Truth is relative" is not even objectively true?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 5, 2013)

bigreddwon said:


> Listen... Carefully....... A n s w e r the  Z E U S question, in detail and as honestly as you can. Oooooookay? You've skipped it twice and replaced the answer with lame insults and dramatic tales of boot camp. Your not fooling anyone.
> 
> Answer the question about Zeus. Honestly.
> 
> ...



And again, you know the God of Abraham was "made up" how?


----------



## 660griz (Aug 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gee Griz you tell me what you base truth on.



Answer a question with a question. 

Purpose of this thread, in a nutshell, was to verify that most christians 'cherry pick' the bible. That is obvious. If you do not cherry pick, then it is just not being interperted correctly. Does this about sum it up?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> Answer a question with a question.
> 
> Purpose of this thread, in a nutshell, was to verify that most christians 'cherry pick' the bible. That is obvious. If you do not cherry pick, then it is just not being interperted correctly. Does this about sum it up?



I think that's a poor understanding of the bible. 
There have been several different covenants God has made with the world. Adamic, mosaic, etc. We are in a new covenant. That's what is revealed in the NT. I am not under the mosaic law. Or the levitical law. 
I am under Grace through the complete atonement of Christ on the cross. 
Yes, we Christians sometimes complicate things. The very bible we muddle up sometimes even says we can be tripped up by the simplicity that is in Christ.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 6, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think that's a poor understanding of the bible.
> There have been several different covenants God has made with the world. Adamic, mosaic, etc. We are in a new covenant. That's what is revealed in the NT. I am not under the mosaic law. Or the levitical law.
> I am under Grace through the complete atonement of Christ on the cross.
> Yes, we Christians sometimes complicate things. The very bible we muddle up sometimes even says we can be tripped up by the simplicity that is in Christ.



So,wait. I can abduct, torture, murder and eat a child then ask for forgiveness and pledge my life to Christ and go to Heaven while my little Hindu victim goes to He11?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> purpose of this thread, in a nutshell, was to verify that most christians 'cherry pick' the bible.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> So,wait. I can abduct, torture, murder and eat a child then ask for forgiveness and pledge my life to Christ and go to Heaven while my little Hindu victim goes to He11?



Yep.  Here's an Atheist!


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> Answer a question with a question.
> 
> Purpose of this thread, in a nutshell, was to verify that most christians 'cherry pick' the bible. That is obvious. If you do not cherry pick, then it is just not being interperted correctly. Does this about sum it up?



Oh?  I thought it was to show how Atheist twist biblical teachings and doctrines into caricatures and then use those caricatures to denigrate Christianity.  You guys have done a fine job of it.  Bravo  I repeat what I said earlier.  If you can't refute the truth, then create a lie and refute it.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yep.  Here's an Atheist!


 

Am I wrong in my understanding of how the incantation works?  That's how I was told it works from Sunday School.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh?  I thought it was to show how Atheist twist biblical teachings and doctrines into caricatures and then use those caricatures to denigrate Christianity.  You guys have done a fine job of it.  Bravo  I repeat what I said earlier.  If you can't refute the truth, then create a lie and refute it.



Huh? I think you and cf have this thread confused with the meme thread. You also argue like a woman. "Oh yea, well what about that girl you looked at 10 years ago."  Focus people. Old vs. New Testament Thread.


----------



## 660griz (Aug 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> View attachment 744111





> :
> Originally Posted by 660griz
> ... how does one ignore the carnage and just pick out the cherries?





centerpin fan said:


> The NT is one big cherry.



Is that not an admission(based on my question) that you only follow the NT and not the OT?

Let me try to predict the response. "Fail, because a big cherry and a big section we ignore so, it is not picking cherries plural, just cherry."


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Am I wrong in my understanding of how the incantation works?  That's how I was told it works from Sunday School.



Keep up the denigration.  What advice did Dawkins give to Atheist, "When your argument fails, ridicule."


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> Huh? I think you and cf have this thread confused with the meme thread. You also argue like a woman. "Oh yea, well what about that girl you looked at 10 years ago."  Focus people. Old vs. New Testament Thread.



I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> Is that not an admission(based on my question) that you only follow the NT and not the OT?



No, it's not.

You say:



660griz said:


> ... most christians 'cherry pick' the bible."



I say most atheists _claim_ that Christians cherry pick the Bible because atheists somehow lose the ability to differentiate between "new" and "old" when referring to the Bible.

Christians don't "ignore" the OT.  How can we?  The OT tells of a Messiah.  Christians believe Jesus is that Messiah.  He said that He came to fulfill the Law and Prophets (OT.)


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Keep up the denigration.  What advice did Dawkins give to Atheist, "When your argument fails, ridicule."



Will I go to Heaven if I proclaim Jesus Lord?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> Is that not an admission(based on my question) that you only follow the NT and not the OT?



I think Galatians 3 is the best summary of the relationship between the OT and the NT for Christians.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 6, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> So,wait. I can abduct, torture, murder and eat a child then ask for forgiveness and pledge my life to Christ and go to Heaven while my little Hindu victim goes to He11?



I cannot say who goes to heaven or he11 if they haven't been introduced to Jesus. The Bible says those without the law will be judged without the law. 
See post 147 on this thread.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Aug 6, 2013)

660griz said:


> Is that not an admission(based on my question) that you only follow the NT and not the OT?
> 
> Let me try to predict the response. "Fail, because a big cherry and a big section we ignore so, it is not picking cherries plural, just cherry."


The only thing I follow is Jesus. 
He was foreshadowed in the OT, revealed in the NT.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 7, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I cannot say who goes to heaven or he11 if they haven't been introduced to Jesus. The Bible says those without the law will be judged without the law.
> See post 147 on this thread.



Ok. Say it's a 16 year old Hindu kid in America.  I repent after eating him.  Do I go to Heaven and he to He11?


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 7, 2013)

See post 147. It applies to everyone. Read Romans2 for gentiles who do not have the law but their conscience acts as a law.


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## Fenderbuilt27 (Dec 7, 2013)

660griz said:


> In prior run ins with religious folks, christians in this case, I have asked them about rape, murder, and slavery in the bible. A majority say that is the old testament and "we don't use that anymore" or "you are not reading it right". Needless to say, I am stunned, since it is carried with them with the New testament and called the Bible. I then ask about God creating everything. That is in the old testament. "Oh, that is true." They say. So, I am really confused. Is the entire Bible the word of "God" or just the New Testament? Is it considered proper to pick and  choose the parts of the Bible you wish to follow?
> 
> "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
> I just imagine the Master standing over the slave yelling, "Please get up, Please get up! Come on, I didn't hit you that hard."
> ...



Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness
Ephesians 6:10-18
The armor of God being the word of God. It does not say to pick and choose what you want to follow. As far as the Old Testament, it is there to give you and account of the history of Israel. It points to Jesus Christ. There is also prophecy there about Jesus Christ. The Laws of the Old Testament are how God put into motion his plan so that the entire human race would have a chance at redemption. 
 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20
The New Testament has the teachings of Jesus. He taught of the Love of the Father and how no one is good and we all deserve he!! but he took that burden for all who believe in him.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 8, 2013)

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand firm. Stand therefore, having fastened on the belt of truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness
> Ephesians 6:10-18
> The armor of God being the word of God. It does not say to pick and choose what you want to follow. As far as the Old Testament, it is there to give you and account of the history of Israel. It points to Jesus Christ. There is also prophecy there about Jesus Christ. The Laws of the Old Testament are how God put into motion his plan so that the entire human race would have a chance at redemption.
> 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20
> The New Testament has the teachings of Jesus. He taught of the Love of the Father and how no one is good and we all deserve he!! but he took that burden for all who believe in him.


This leaves me with a couple of questions - 


> "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."





> that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil


In my mind, having slaves and beating them being ok sounds like a pretty devilish scheme. No? Its even more devilish to say not kill them. But I guess that way they stay alive so you can beat them some more.


> For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places.


The slave being beaten wasn't made of flesh and blood? The slave was a ruler? An authority? Cosmic power? Force of evil? Wouldn't the person doing the beating be all those things to the slave?


> The Laws of the Old Testament are how God put into motion his plan so that the entire human race would have a chance at redemption.


Im not getting the beat your slaves law equaling you have a chance at redemption connection. Explain that?


> Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


I think Im going to pass on this Heaven place and instead not teach anybody its ok to have slaves and beat them. But that's just me.


> He taught of the Love of the Father and how no one is good and we all deserve he!! but he took that burden for all who believe in him


Im wondering if the slave, while he was being beaten, was thinking " Man I wish my Father didn't love me quite this much". Or maybe " This whole Fathers love thing sure is a pain in the flesh and blood".


> but he took that burden for all who believe in him


Seems pretty selfish. If he took that burden for everybody no matter what they believed now that would be impressive.
All I am left with after reading your response is the word "hypocrisy" and confirming to myself that this isn't anything to be worshipped. But, you know, maybe I just didn't understand.


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## Fenderbuilt27 (Dec 8, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> This leaves me with a couple of questions -
> 
> 
> In my mind, having slaves and beating them being ok sounds like a pretty devilish scheme. No? Its even more devilish to say not kill them. But I guess that way they stay alive so you can beat them some more.
> ...



The having slaves was not God's doing, it was man's doing. In the time of Moses it was more of the culture and things weren't done in the same way they are today. In fact there are still millions of slaves all over the world still to this day. We as people who work for a living are pretty much slaves to a dollar. God wants a relationship with us and as part of his master plan "The plan of Salvation" he has given us a way to be saved. The part that we as men have trouble with is that we have to surrender ourselves to him and except Jesus Christ as our savior. Once you except him you become a new creature a new person with God living inside you. 
Jesus Christ himself never owned a slave. He set the example of how we are to live. I would like to challenge you to read the bible without trying to find fault in it's pages but try to understand it for what it is. Through the Fall of Adam all men are condemned to death and an eternity in he!! but through Jesus Christ we can have eternal life.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 8, 2013)

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> The having slaves was not God's doing, it was man's doing. In the time of Moses it was more of the culture and things weren't done in the same way they are today. In fact there are still millions of slaves all over the world still to this day. We as people who work for a living are pretty much slaves to a dollar. God wants a relationship with us and as part of his master plan "The plan of Salvation" he has given us a way to be saved. The part that we as men have trouble with is that we have to surrender ourselves to him and except Jesus Christ as our savior. Once you except him you become a new creature a new person with God living inside you.
> Jesus Christ himself never owned a slave. He set the example of how we are to live. I would like to challenge you to read the bible without trying to find fault in it's pages but try to understand it for what it is. Through the Fall of Adam all men are condemned to death and an eternity in he!! but through Jesus Christ we can have eternal life.





> The having slaves was not God's doing, it was man's doing.


So then this was mans rule and man wrote this correct? -


> "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."





> In the time of Moses it was more of the culture and things weren't done in the same way they are today.


I agree. In your opinion why aren't they done the same way today/why did our culture change?


> I would like to challenge you to read the bible without trying to find fault in it's pages but try to understand it for what it is


You are assuming that I have never read the Bible or that I have only read it as an unbeliever.
I would like to challenge you to read the Bible without glossing over the things that will make you question it but try to understand it for EXACTLY what it says.
And if you care to I would like to see you address the specific questions I asked and comments I made. Again, if you care to.


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## bullethead (Dec 8, 2013)

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> The having slaves was not God's doing, it was man's doing. In the time of Moses it was more of the culture and things weren't done in the same way they are today. In fact there are still millions of slaves all over the world still to this day. We as people who work for a living are pretty much slaves to a dollar. God wants a relationship with us and as part of his master plan "The plan of Salvation" he has given us a way to be saved. The part that we as men have trouble with is that we have to surrender ourselves to him and except Jesus Christ as our savior. Once you except him you become a new creature a new person with God living inside you.
> Jesus Christ himself never owned a slave. He set the example of how we are to live. I would like to challenge you to read the bible without trying to find fault in it's pages but try to understand it for what it is. Through the Fall of Adam all men are condemned to death and an eternity in he!! but through Jesus Christ we can have eternal life.



What examples did Jesus set from ages 2-29? What was he doing? How was he living? What can you tell us about this guy other than the three to four years covered in the Bible?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> The having slaves was not God's doing, it was man's doing. In the time of Moses it was more of the culture and things weren't done in the same way they are today. In fact there are still millions of slaves all over the world still to this day. We as people who work for a living are pretty much slaves to a dollar. God wants a relationship with us and as part of his master plan "The plan of Salvation" he has given us a way to be saved. The part that we as men have trouble with is that we have to surrender ourselves to him and except Jesus Christ as our savior. Once you except him you become a new creature a new person with God living inside you.
> Jesus Christ himself never owned a slave. He set the example of how we are to live. I would like to challenge you to read the bible without trying to find fault in it's pages but try to understand it for what it is. Through the Fall of Adam all men are condemned to death and an eternity in he!! but through Jesus Christ we can have eternal life.



If slavery was man's doings but the whole Old Testament story was God's doings, how do we determine what, if anything in today's time is our doings?
How do we pick what parts of the Old Testament was from man like slavery and what parts were from God like the Moses parts, Flood parts, and the "to show man he couldn't make it without a Savior part?"


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## bullethead (Dec 8, 2013)

It never ceases to make me snicker at how quickly the "user online" light goes from green to grey when the questions are asked of them to back up statements.


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## bullethead (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If slavery was man's doings but the whole Old Testament story was God's doings, how do we determine what, if anything in today's time is our doings?
> How do we pick what parts of the Old Testament was from man like slavery and what parts were from God like the Moses parts, Flood parts, and the "to show man he couldn't make it without a Savior part?"



It really is not that hard to sort out.
SOME of the parts involving real people,places and events are verifiable. Some of the parts involving real people places and things have a hint of truth to them but are embellished and cannot be verified. The parts involving a god are the ones that there are no proof of literally anywhere.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Some of the parts involving real people places and things have a hint of truth to them but are embellished and cannot be verified.



That's a contradictory statement.  If they cannot be verified then you cannot PROVE they have been embellished.  



bullethead said:


> The parts involving a god are the ones that there are no proof of literally anywhere.



But the evidence is everywhere.


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## 660griz (Dec 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What examples did Jesus set from ages 2-29? What was he doing? How was he living? What can you tell us about this guy other than the three to four years covered in the Bible?



Probably abused as a child, and became an alcoholic / drug abuser. Perhaps pimped out women and other evil stuff until one day...He saw the 'light'. Grew a beard and started making things out of wood. Wait, that's...anyway. Seems to be a common theme.


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> Probably abused as a child, and became an alcoholic / drug abuser. Perhaps pimped out women and other evil stuff until one day...He saw the 'light'. Grew a beard and started making things out of wood. Wait, that's...anyway. Seems to be a common theme.



I mean think about it....god...right here on earth for 33 years and a few people that never met him are the only ones to tell conflicting stories about 3 years of his life.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I mean think about it....god...right here on earth for 33 years and a few people that never met him are the only ones to tell conflicting stories about 3 years of his life.



That's still the case today.  Ironic huh?


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's still the case today.  Ironic huh?



Ironic in what way?


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## centerpin fan (Dec 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> Probably abused as a child, and became an alcoholic / drug abuser. Perhaps pimped out women and other evil stuff until one day...He saw the 'light'. Grew a beard and started making things out of wood.



Not even close.  He was easily the best point guard in Nazareth High history.


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## stringmusic (Dec 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Not even close.  He was easily the best point guard in Nazareth High history.






I think there's a signed jersey on ebay right now.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 9, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I think there's a signed jersey on ebay right now.



I'm bidding!


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ironic in what way?


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Not even close.  He was easily the best point guard in Nazareth High history.



Yeah, I remember some epic games between Jesus (Josh back then) and the point guard Scott Howard from the Jerusalem Beavers.


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


>



Listen if you can't explain just say so.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, I remember some epic games between Jesus (Josh back then) and the point guard Scott Howard from the Jerusalem Beavers.



A Gentile?  Playing for the Beavers?  Sacrilege!


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> A Gentile?  Playing for the Beavers?  Sacrilege!



Not just any Gentile.....
He was heavily recruited.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm bidding!


Too late. I picked it up for the Buy Now price of $6.66


Sorry guys I couldn't help but get in on the fun.


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

But I gotsta know........did anyone check into Scott Howard playing for the Beavers?


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## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Too late. I picked it up for the Buy Now price of $6.66
> 
> 
> Sorry guys I couldn't help but get in on the fun.



Good One!


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## bullethead (Dec 11, 2013)

bullethead said:


> But I gotsta know........did anyone check into Scott Howard playing for the Beavers?



centerpin.........?


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## centerpin fan (Dec 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> centerpin.........?



I had to Google it.  I've never seen _Teen Wolf_.

Sorry.


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## bullethead (Dec 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I had to Google it.  I've never seen _Teen Wolf_.
> 
> Sorry.



The king of clips....the sultan of snippets....the Yahweh of Youtube.......has NEVER seen Teen Wolf?!?!?!

I just appreciate you took the time to look it up.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The king of clips....the sultan of snippets....the Yahweh of Youtube.......has NEVER seen Teen Wolf?!?!?



Sad but true.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Sad but true.


In my opinion you aren't missing much


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## 660griz (Dec 17, 2013)

Could someone with the help of the Holy Spirit interpret these for me please:

Matthew
7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 

10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 

5"When you pray, you are not to be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full. 

6"But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.


Hebrews
10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

660griz said:


> Could someone with the help of the Holy Spirit interpret these for me please:
> 
> Matthew
> 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
> ...




Slow day?


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## 660griz (Dec 17, 2013)

Nope. 3 monitors.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

660griz said:


> Nope. 3 monitors.



Bourgeois swine.


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## 660griz (Dec 17, 2013)

Makes me FEEL important.


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## 1222DANO (Dec 17, 2013)

''Some thanked tech knowledge  and some thought if was all about tech knowledge''

''if its about tech knowledge and it can't read or write then how are these words coming from my mouth so right''

''should i have just wrote them all down and throwed them down a well''


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