# Tepid spirituality



## StriperAddict

"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; . . . I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:14-16) 

Lukewarm Laodicea

The Lord Jesus used intense language to rebuke this church, the last of the seven He had John write to in the book of Revelation. Laodicea was dangerously near the brink of being disavowed by He who is the Head of the church. 

Such churches believe they "have need of nothing" (Revelation 3:17). Worldly wealth, extensive property, and popular recognition blinded these members and their leaders to their true spiritual condition. They failed to understand that, from the Lord's perspective, they are "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked" (Revelation 3:17). 

The cause of this terrible spiritual destitution is being spiritually tepid. It's like expecting a glass of cold water or a cup of hot tea but finding everything at room temperature. This church "tasted" just like the world around them. They were neither godly nor in rebellion--just "nice people" who blended in well with the community. Their spiritual reputation did not smell either like life or death (2 Corinthians 2:16). 

Despite the Lord's distaste for such a condition, He loved and counseled them to "buy" from Him the gold of the kingdom's true wealth, righteous clothing that would cover their shameful exposure of worldly behavior, and to anoint their spiritual eyes so that they could see eternal values rather than temporal things. 

As the Lord graciously closed His letter, He "stands at the door" of the church, waiting for anyone to open and let Him in (Revelation 3:20). Tepid spirituality keeps the Lord outside. What a shame that such could ever be said about any church. HMM III 

From: Days of Praise articles 
July 14, 2012

______
The grace of God at the end of the message always astounded me too. Imagine a refuge when wandering in complacency, and not as a commander that would bring out the firing squad. I can think of times where the Lord has brought me back from those pits...  praise His name!


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## Artfuldodger

Did God expect them to do some works for salvation?


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Did God expect them to do some works for salvation?



I think He meant that the city and all the Kingdom needed  more roads.



This song was written by the drummer of this band  Roger Taylor.( Queen). It is about his son--the love of his life--- who was  back then(early 80's) a child. Jesus in our hearts often or sometimes asks us to walk--a walk of faith-- where at first we would rather care not to. So when we stay still, it begs what fire is in our heart after all, or what has broken us...to listlessness.

Folks cold to a life in the Holy Spirit and folks in the heat of Him are not the obsticles. Both need direction and compassion. But those in the middle, who think and praise "they have made it" usually can't shut up long enough to listen. They become clumsy obsticles within the heavenly cities.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Did God expect them to do some works for salvation?


 
Of course not.

But getting so close to the world (standards) is like taking the grace of God for granted, not a good thing.


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## 1gr8bldr

This is one reason I don't accept Revelations as inspired. This verse does not represent the Christian faith. It implies that someone might not be good enough.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> This is one reason I don't accept Revelations as inspired. This verse does not represent the Christian faith. It implies that someone might not be good enough.



That verse doesn't have to represent the Christian faith in order to be inspired.

100's of times, the apostles teach the commandment of discipleship.  Paul warned the church in Rome not to have a sick, worldly view of how God's grace should be accepted (Romans 5 and 6).

The church in Laodicea has a lot in common with the church (Christians) today.  Many are full of themselves.  There isn't much difference in the world today and the people in the church.  We've taken on the appearance of the world.  We want the same things that people of the world want.  We love the way people of the world love.  We trust in God the way people of the world do.
We're fat on the world; lazy spiritually; and love ourself more than God..............

And some even blame us and our attitudes on God.

It's inspired alright.  But it doesn't fit the modern day Christian faith.

Who does Jesus think he's talking to!!!!!  He can's speak to us that way and have those expectations of us?????  We're saved by grace aren't we?  I demand my rights!!!
I don't have to be anything but saved.


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> That verse doesn't have to represent the Christian faith in order to be inspired.
> 
> 100's of times, the apostles teach the commandment of discipleship.  Paul warned the church in Rome not to have a sick, worldly view of how God's grace should be accepted (Romans 5 and 6).
> 
> The church in Laodicea has a lot in common with the church (Christians) today.  Many are full of themselves.  There isn't much difference in the world today and the people in the church.  We've taken on the appearance of the world.  We want the same things that people of the world want.  We love the way people of the world love.  We trust in God the way people of the world do.
> We're fat on the world; lazy spiritually; and love ourself more than God..............
> 
> And some even blame us and our attitudes on God.
> 
> It's inspired alright.  But it doesn't fit the modern day Christian faith.
> 
> Who does Jesus think he's talking to!!!!!  He can's speak to us that way and have those expectations of us?????  We're saved by grace aren't we?  I demand my rights!!!
> I don't have to be anything but saved.



Now where does this certain utterance come from? Gee don't tell me, your listening to Jesus and the Holy Spirit these days?!!!! I think your assesment of the patient is spot on Doc.  Now your orders?


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## thedeacon

God does not expect us to work for salvation but he
does not want  a slothful church either. Does anyone
here actually think God is pleased with someone who
never see's any need to work for the Lord.

GOD HATES LAZY, SLOTHFUL PEOPLE. HE WILL PUKE YOU UP.

Not my opinion, thats what God says.

A lot of people are trying to justify not doing anything, not giving anything, not caring about anything. Thats not Christian thinking.
Now thats my opinion.


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## 1gr8bldr

But grace is grace. Paul said "his grace was not without effect on me". In other words, as with Paul, The Holy Spirit living in us has an effect on us. Works are a result. But not a requirement. So does that mean we don't try? No, not what I am saying. What I am saying is that particular verse is saying to already saved hearers, that you are not good enough. You are either washed by the blood white as snow or you are not. To defend that verse is to trample grace underfoot


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## 1gr8bldr

thedeacon said:


> God does not expect us to work for salvation but he
> does not want  a slothful church either. Does anyone
> here actually think God is pleased with someone who
> never see's any need to work for the Lord.
> 
> *GOD HATES LAZY, SLOTHFUL PEOPLE. HE WILL PUKE YOU UP.*
> 
> Not my opinion, thats what God says.
> 
> A lot of people are trying to justify not doing anything, not giving anything, not caring about anything. Thats not Christian thinking.
> Now thats my opinion.


God don't care if the unsaved are lazy. You are implying that God hates lazy Christians. I could never say that. Lazy or not, they were bought by the precious blood of Jesus. This verse has no place in the Christian faith


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## 1gr8bldr

I would hate to go around wondering if I were good enough. Had I done enough to get in??? Would he spew me out. What was the standard. Who do I compare myself to that I might think that I do more than they do, so hopefully I will be saved and not spewed out. Come on guys, you believe this, then you ain't saved by grace.


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## 1gr8bldr

If I were to offend a group of students for their being behind others, would I not actually be offending the teacher of that group. Are we not new creations? Are we not God's workmanship?


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## 1gr8bldr

"More straw, more bricks, increase the quota!"

Where have you seen this before? Are you free or still in slavery?


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## 1gr8bldr

John 6:28 "Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?29 Jesus answered" The work of God is to believe in the one he has sent"


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## 1gr8bldr

Scholars proved long ago that the writing of Revelations was not written by the same writer of John. Even Eusebius wrote about this. Origen also. It was first rejected by the Catholic church but later accepted.


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## 1gr8bldr

This pasted from another site;
Universally maintained as last in the compilation after the Shepherd of Hermes was finally removed in the middle ages. It is written in a totally different style than the Johannine gospel and epistles. The difference is so pronounced in Greek that none of the patristic writers accepted that the same author of the gospel and epistles was the author of the book (accept Irenaeus). This has led to interesting disputes over the book. All of these began because Irenaeus accepted anything from Ephesus claiming to be from John because he said that Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis, was John’s student and scribe. Papias, however, had said he was the hearer and scribe to John the Presbyter, and not the apostle. Dionysius of Alexandria said the same author as the gospel cannot be the author of Revelation, based on its very different style. Eusebius popularized the idea that the Elder John wrote the book Eusebius dug up Papias own books, where Papias mentions the Elder frequently. This was commonly accepted from that time by others, including Jerome. Eusebius flushed the book into the “spurious” category. The claim of authorship and style of content maintained the book on disputed lists even during the time of Charlemagne (9th century). The Council of Trent would not hold the book as full canon. No Reformer accepted the book. Because of the literary disputes Calvin offered that John Mark could have been the author. The “visions” in Revelation are clearly stolen from Daniel, and they also clearly were applied against Rome. They were also soon to happen . . .but did not.


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## Ronnie T

Notice the way Christ identifies Himself to them:
Rev 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; 
*Very impressive isn't it?  All Christians should be able to acknowledge those truths.

Now Christ mentions their outer person and their inner person.
(1) He knows what their physical life is all about.  (2) He also knows the inner them.  They don't love Christ, and they don't hate Christ.  They don't acknowledge Christ.
Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
*That's not the effect Jesus is suppose to have on people.

Here, in verse 17, gives the details of what He is confronted with in them.
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth 
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
*These Christians have forgotten what Christ did for them.  They are no longer living in the realization that they needed, and continue to need Christ.  They don't believe they need anything from anyone.  Christ has a message for them, and us.

Christ is obviously profoundly upset with their response to His work.  The son of the Almighty has that right.

I suspect God Himself is hurt to His core when He hears the heart of one of His creations say:  "I'm saved through grace and I don't owe God anything."  
I believe that's the greatest lie of present day Christian beliefs.


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## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> Notice the way Christ identifies Himself to them:
> Rev 3:14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
> *Very impressive isn't it?  All Christians should be able to acknowledge those truths.
> 
> Now Christ mentions their outer person and their inner person.
> (1) He knows what their physical life is all about.  (2) He also knows the inner them.  They don't love Christ, and they don't hate Christ.  They don't acknowledge Christ.
> Rev 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou were cold or hot.
> *That's not the effect Jesus is suppose to have on people.
> 
> Here, in verse 17, gives the details of what He is confronted with in them.
> Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth
> Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
> *These Christians have forgotten what Christ did for them.  They are no longer living in the realization that they needed, and continue to need Christ.  They don't believe they need anything from anyone.  Christ has a message for them, and us.
> 
> Christ is obviously profoundly upset with their response to His work.  The son of the Almighty has that right.
> 
> I suspect God Himself is hurt to His core when He hears the heart of one of His creations say:  "I'm saved through grace and I don't owe God anything."
> I believe that's the greatest lie of present day Christian beliefs.


Sure, we  owe, we are slaves to Christ.  But to think that the good Christians get saved and the bad Christians get spewed. That is an oxymoran. Are we saved by grace or is it grace plus works? Or maybe saved by grace, kept by works? One more time. Works is a result, not a requirment. No works, then possibly not one of his. But this is not what the text implies. It implies that you have to be good enough. Don't throw your faith under the bus to protect your book of Revelations.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Sure, we  owe, we are slaves to Christ.  But to think that the good Christians get saved and the bad Christians get spewed. That is an oxymoran. Are we saved by grace or is it grace plus works? Or maybe saved by grace, kept by works? One more time. Works is a result, not a requirment. No works, then possibly not one of his. But this is not what the text implies. It implies that you have to be good enough. Don't throw your faith under the bus to protect your book of Revelations.



The Christians that Jesus was writing to were not slaves to Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> The Christians that Jesus was writing to were not slaves to Christ.


But were they Christian?


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## ross the deer slayer

1gr8bldr said:


> John 6:28 "Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?29 Jesus answered" The work of God is to believe in the one he has sent"



Can one be Christian but NOT a slave to Christ if the Work of God is to "believe in The One He has sent"?
To be a Christian, one must believe in Jesus Christ..this is The Work of God. To be a slave to Christ we must do The Work of God right? Believing in Jesus is The work of God.
I think this means that you have to be a slave to Christ in order to be a Christian.


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## Ronnie T

I think this is a discription of the the people in this particular church.

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.


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## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> I think this is a discription of the the people in this particular church.
> 
> 2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.



We have similar thoughts here.

The problem at Laodicia was not lukewarm works,
the problem at Laodicia was lukewarm discipleship.


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## Artfuldodger

Being we have all come short of the glory of God. We have requirements by Jesus to live by under the New Covenant. Being we have free will and can give up our salvation any time we freely want to. Various examples of Jesus telling us how we should live and treat people & help the poor, etc. Whether the problem is lukewarm works or discipleship, it's our problem. People keep saying "if you are a true Christian, then you won't do those things any more" or "now that you are a Christian, you will live righteous."
In my heart, I can't speak for anyone else, my personal Savior requires works from me. Maybe your relationship with Jesus doesn't. We all have a different & personal relationship with Jesus. We all know when we are not meeting our end of the bargain. I guess the difference is what the outcome of us not meeting our end of the bargain will bring.


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> But were they Christian?



I say not. Jude warns of pretenders, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4)



1gr8bldr said:


> But to think that the good Christians get saved and the bad Christians get spewed. That is an oxymoran.


I agree. It does despite unto the Spirit of grace.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> In my heart, I can't speak for anyone else, my personal Savior requires works from me. Maybe your relationship with Jesus doesn't. We all have a different & personal relationship with Jesus. We all know when we are not meeting our end of the bargain. I guess the difference is what the outcome of us not meeting our end of the bargain will bring.



It seems to me that "the difference" is to whom we turn.

I seem to need a lot of turning.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I say not. Jude warns of pretenders, "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ." (Jude 1:4)
> 
> 
> I agree. It does despite unto the Spirit of grace.



So, you believe, in Rev 1,2,3 Jesus is writing letters to unbelievers?


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## hobbs27

The church should be a refuge for the lost.A person of the world should not be able to come in and be comforted in the way they live.I'm afraid we are more concerned with winning numbers of people than souls.
 It shows in the Gospel as its preached also, do you go to have your ears tickled, or to hear from the Lord?
 The scripture shows an error in man regarding our relationship with the Lord, and even today there are those that fear and run from the precious sweet spirit of the Lord.Instead of communing with God many choose to commune with the world and man...going to church and not being the church.
 Im afraid Im no better a man though, because everytime I've asked the Lord to show me faults that I may repent the list grows long.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> So, you believe, in Rev 1,2,3 Jesus is writing letters to unbelievers?



I was referring to Laodicea. Paul appeared to hold this church in high esteem. It apparently was a strong ministry at one time. Something went wrong. I imagine there were a few believers there but most were lost people who thought they were saved. Probably a picture of most churches today.


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## thedeacon

1gr8bldr said:


> John 6:28 "Then they asked him, What must we do to do the works God requires?29 Jesus answered" The work of God is to believe in the one he has sent"



In James he says faith without works is dead, being alone


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## thedeacon

I don't think you can work yourself to heaven.
I also don't think you can be a Christian
if you ignore the WORK of Jesus Christ.
WHAT WERE WE PUT HER FOR?
To serve God. Yes I am a slave to Jesus
Christ, I cannot ignore his commands if
I want to please him.
WITHOUT FAITH IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO PLEASE GOD.
FAITH WITH OUT WORKS IS DEAD, DEAD, DEAD, 
Yes it is still there.


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## thedeacon

hobbs27 said:


> The church should be a refuge for the lost.A person of the world should not be able to come in and be comforted in the way they live.I'm afraid we are more concerned with winning numbers of people than souls.
> It shows in the Gospel as its preached also, do you go to have your ears tickled, or to hear from the Lord?
> The scripture shows an error in man regarding our relationship with the Lord, and even today there are those that fear and run from the precious sweet spirit of the Lord.Instead of communing with God many choose to commune with the world and man...going to church and not being the church.
> Im afraid Im no better a man though, because everytime I've asked the Lord to show me faults that I may repent the list grows long.



I agree with you here. The length of the list is not
important. What is important is you desire to repent
and change.


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## 1gr8bldr

thedeacon said:


> In James he says faith without works is dead, being alone


Just more contridictions coming from within the same book.. You need to decide which side of the fence you will place your faith in. Grace or works??? They don't mix. No such thing as grace and works. The confusion lies in the fact that we as a new creation have no works. It is his work in us. But that is different from the original conversation of whether God will spew lukewarm Christians out of his mouth.


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## Ronnie T

1gr8bldr said:


> Just more contridictions coming from within the same book.. You need to decide which side of the fence you will place your faith in. Grace or works??? They don't mix. No such thing as grace and works. The confusion lies in the fact that we as a new creation have no works. It is his work in us. But that is different from the original conversation of whether God will spew lukewarm Christians out of his mouth.



The reason grace and works won't mix together for some people is because they've listened and read the words of people who haven't allowed grace and fruit to become part of Christian existance.

Jesus' personal ministry, and Jesus' thoughts and words from Revelation speak continually of grace and obedience.
The apostles spoke at length about grace and fruits.  
But we only teach the verses that deal with grace.  
"The covenant of Grace" some people call it.  But a "covenant" is a two sided relation.

The Christians in Rome said "lets sin a lot so that we'll receive more grace".  Paul said "God forbid".
If it's grace only, Paul would not have been able to claim that "God forbids".

God forbid!

They ain't no free tickets to heaven.
But you don't even need a ticket to get into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.


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## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> The reason grace and works won't mix together for some people is because they've listened and read the words of people who haven't allowed grace and fruit to become part of Christian existance.
> 
> Jesus' personal ministry, and Jesus' thoughts and words from Revelation speak continually of grace and obedience.
> The apostles spoke at length about grace and fruits.
> But we only teach the verses that deal with grace.
> "The covenant of Grace" some people call it.  But a "covenant" is a two sided relation.
> 
> The Christians in Rome said "lets sin a lot so that we'll receive more grace".  Paul said "God forbid".
> If it's grace only, Paul would not have been able to claim that "God forbids".
> 
> God forbid!
> 
> They ain't no free tickets to heaven.
> But you don't even need a ticket to get into - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.


We can't confuse the gospel. Are we saved by grace or works? As Paul said, "God's grace was not without effect"


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## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> We can't confuse the gospel. Are we saved by grace or works? As Paul said, "God's grace was not without effect"



We cant do works to recieve his grace, but because we have recieved his grace, we do works.


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## Ronnie T

In Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.


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## hummerpoo

1gr8bldr said:


> Just more contridictions coming from within the same book.. You need to decide which side of the fence you will place your faith in. Grace or works??? They don't mix. No such thing as grace and works. The confusion lies in the fact that we as a new creation have no works. It is his work in us. But that is different from the original conversation of whether God will spew lukewarm Christians out of his mouth.



I can't figure out what this is all about.  You seem to understand salvation and works, but then argue with your own position.

As to who Jesus will present as His own, are you saying that you know who they are?


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## 1gr8bldr

Ronnie T said:


> In Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.


Mercy, Have you given up all?


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## 1gr8bldr

hummerpoo said:


> I can't figure out what this is all about.  You seem to understand salvation and works, but then argue with your own position.
> 
> As to who Jesus will present as His own, are you saying that you know who they are?


I'm debating that the book of Revelation does not belong in the NT canon because it contridicts the gospel. "How I wish you were one or the other [hot or cold] so I will spew you out of my mouth". This is saying that we are not saved by grace but by works. He will spew out the Christians who are not good enough. I do not believe that. There is no such thing as good enough in grace. I acknowledge that salvation brings about change or works but is a result, not a requirment. No one will be good enough, no not one. Mixing grace and works is not the gospel. Many here are defending the inspiration of Revelations while throwing the gospel under the bus. I'm pushing them to realize that grace is not grace at all if works are required. I see this as a BIG deal. It confuses the gospel and brings about uncertainity of being saved. I'll go ahead and say it, It's another gospel.


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## hummerpoo

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm debating that the book of Revelation does not belong in the NT canon because it contridicts the gospel. "How I wish you were one or the other [hot or cold] so I will spew you out of my mouth". This is saying that we are not saved by grace but by works. He will spew out the Christians who are not good enough. I do not believe that. There is no such thing as good enough in grace. I acknowledge that salvation brings about change or works but is a result, not a requirment. No one will be good enough, no not one. Mixing grace and works is not the gospel. Many here are defending the inspiration of Revelations while throwing the gospel under the bus. I'm pushing them to realize that grace is not grace at all if works are required. I see this as a BIG deal. It confuses the gospel and brings about uncertainity of being saved. I'll go ahead and say it, It's another gospel.



OK.  In that case...not to promote an argument, but for consideration; I think you are misinterpreting the passage.
Unless I misunderstand, your interpretation would mean that there are no "tares", which, of coarse, there are.  And we can't ignore "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' "....(Mat. 7:21-23)


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## 1gr8bldr

hummerpoo said:


> I can't figure out what this is all about.  You seem to understand salvation and works, but then argue with your own position.
> 
> As to who Jesus will present as His own, are you saying that you know who they are?


Maybe those debating with me on this are misunderstanding my position as you have here?


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## 1gr8bldr

hummerpoo said:


> OK.  In that case...not to promote an argument, but for consideration; I think you are misinterpreting the passage.
> Unless I misunderstand, your interpretation would mean that there are no "tares", which, of coarse, there are.  And we can't ignore "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' "....(Mat. 7:21-23)


I understand your point, but the Revelation verse in question very much implies works among believers.


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## hummerpoo

1gr8bldr said:


> I understand your point, but the Revelation verse in question very much implies works among believers.



I don't know ... when I see, hot, cold, lukewarm, I think of the phrase "on fire for the Lord"; which I think means dedicated to the teachings of Christ, which you and I agree are a result of salvation.  Yes it is "works", but I don't see that as a requirement or obligation; my personal interpretation of scripture is that it is unavoidable.


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> I understand your point, but the Revelation verse in question very much implies works among believers.



Does it? 

"Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; _and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:_ (Rev3:17)

I would say that these are unregenerate.


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## 1gr8bldr

gemcgrew said:


> Does it?
> 
> "Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; _and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:_ (Rev3:17)
> 
> I would say that these are unregenerate.


"How I wish you were one or the other" [hot or cold], but you are lukewarm." Lukewarm describes the temperature of the water. But it is water regardless of whether it is hot, cold or lukewarm


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> "How I wish you were one or the other" [hot or cold], but you are lukewarm." Lukewarm describes the temperature of the water. But it is water regardless of whether it is hot, cold or lukewarm



"and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"

Unregenerate


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## Artfuldodger

I've often wondered if Revelation was not written by the same John or shouldn't have been in the Bible. It doesn't seem to fit, that might be why some think most of it has already happened. 
Either way the story of the Laodiceans  is about how their wealth has interfered with their responsibilities as Christians. It's not the first time Jesus has preached against rich people. Being rich in itself isn't bad but it can cause one to believe he has everything one needs and disregard God. Especially to the point of not helping others. I'm not sure what will happen to someone or a whole group of people (church, city, nation) who quit honoring & obeying God because of fame, fortune, wickedness, egos, pride, etc.
That is the lesson of Revelation 3:14-16, not doing works per say.


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## gemcgrew

I think when you try to attribute hot, cold and lukewarm to believers is where you are getting all tangled up here. When you apply it to man, hot(believer), cold(atheist), lukewarm(deceived or hypocrite), I believe is the proper application here.


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## gordon 2

1gr8bldr said:


> I understand your point, but the Revelation verse in question very much implies works among believers.



Works here if you are influenced from specific denominations has a negative meaning which means salvation by one's own efforts. But this is useing the word "works" as a broad brush. The meaning that I would give works in your examples is "walk" or the "way of".

So it would mean the way of and the walk of christians amonst themeselves and in the world. So by their ways and walk one can assume that there is a problem or not with the faithful--and if there is one attemps to fix it.

Simply if one has all the symptoms of a depression or a cold, most likely one has a depression or a cold. Those afflicted can do some things to help themselves...


"Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
In Luke 14:25 Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, "If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not carry his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple. For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, saying, 'This man began to build and was not able to finish.' Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions."

I suggest that the folk at  the chruch of Laodicia  would read from the above as the world reads it. They would not have  understood it and for not understanding it they were questionably lost or "and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked."

This worldly poverty is exactly what they might have feared for themselves for what the above passage meant to them!  Ironically, for not understanding it they were very poor in Spirit--naked babes...or something was wrong with the body of that church... It needed attending. 

Perhaps their hearts were still in the world despite their meeting as a church--something was not right. They could not let go of father and mother, spouse and children in the world. They saw and found it difficult to let go the needs of the world addressed and cared for by that world and not by the Kingdom! 

The world would read the above and know exactly what it would mean. It would mean doing as some hindu do even today  when they leave their families and wealth and wonder in poverty--sometimes sacraficing a limb in their spiritual walks. This is not what it means to a christian. To a christians it means knowing what of the world we were saved from and what of the Kingdom we were saved to--actually is!

So if what is of the world and of goodness is not decernable in the people around us, family included and ourselves as well,  and in how we all go about our lives--then we have either  taken vows of decipleship which we were not capable of taking or we are fallen back and need a good shock in the heart--to get it going good again.

From my perspective Revelation is very much in keeping with the Gospels--it is the same Gospel that animates these.  Buy her work(s) or listlessness the church of Leodicia was not very passionate... "What's wrong baby?"

But perhaps Leodicians were pacing themselves or in reserve... in meeting other Kings in battle? "Leodicia, anything wrong...? or is there something I don't know?" "Leodicia if the world  really continues in your heart, I will spit you out of my mouth as it follows that your words, your meanings, they will not be mine.  And! you will be worst, far worst off spiritually, then where you were from to begin with."


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## StriperAddict

1gr8bldr said:


> No, not what I am saying. What I am saying is that particular verse is saying to already saved hearers, that you are not good enough.


 
My eyes then are seeing different.  From the article:



> Despite the Lord's distaste for such a condition, He loved and counseled them to "buy" from Him the gold of the kingdom's true wealth, righteous clothing that would cover their shameful exposure of worldly behavior, and to anoint their spiritual eyes so that they could see eternal values rather than temporal things.


 
Isn't chastisement, rebuke and correction just another form of God's love?

Are saints who have "the righteousness of God in Christ" always without error? And can't such error, left unchecked, look more like the world?  Do we do disservice to our own by letting the hand of the world touch a particular part of the body?

Do we/you/me cry with the tears of heaven when anyone is blinded by sin?

And doesn't grace shout its tidings over all of this? Certainly it does.  Where sin abounds (and not just the unregenerate) grace does MUCH more abound, however with it's heavenly sorrow over the reputation of on High gettin a bad rap.  For such, a good dose of fire might well wash the fleshly works away, as in the case of the Corinthian CHRISTIAN who "had his fathers' wife" and, at first was "turned over to Satan for the destruction of his FLESH" so that his "spirit would be saved".  In 2Cor, the man indeed repented.

As was stated earlier, Shall the Laodiceans "continue in sin, that grace may abound"???   God forbid!

And yet, His mercy comes to them with a "cloak"... of dicipline, perhaps as the "pure gold" of new trials just might be what could turn their current carnality back to total dependency on Him who died for their sins... all of them 

To me? That's grace more than abundant.


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## 1gr8bldr

gemcgrew said:


> I think when you try to attribute hot, cold and lukewarm to believers is where you are getting all tangled up here. When you apply it to man, hot(believer), cold(atheist), lukewarm(deceived or hypocrite), I believe is the proper application here.



I concede that this is reasonable explanation


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## gtparts

I believe that this section of Revelation (the letters to the churches) is more than a warning to specific churches of that day, but to individuals and churches that may be contemporary to the reading of the Word, whomever that may be, at whatever time. If the shoe fits, change shoes! To be warned of impending jeopardy is just another example of God's grace.


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## Ronnie T

Every letter that Jesus sent to the churches in Asia was addressed (from) the Lord of Christ's church (to) those who were His.
The fact that what He says upsets some of our American Christian thinking doesn't mean we can change the intent of those letters.

Clearly, from the beginning of Jesus's ministry until it's end, Jesus spoke of the change that "MUST" take place in the life of a believer.  Continually.
Jesus now continues those Devine teachings from beside our Almighty God.

The apostles continually taught the need for obedience and changed lives.  Over and over again.  It was expected.  It was written about.  And Christians were rebuked and shamed for not doing it.

No one should be surprised, or question Jesus' statements in Revelation.
In these letters, our Lord has a message for you and I also.
What is it?


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## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> I believe that this section of Revelation (the letters to the churches) is more than a warning to specific churches of that day, but to individuals and churches that may be contemporary to the reading of the Word, whomever that may be, at whatever time. If the shoe fits, change shoes! To be warned of impending jeopardy is just another example of God's grace.



Amen.
Why do we fight with scripture rather than allow Christ to speak to us, just as He did Saul?
Paul misunderstood, but listened to Christ.  Can't we?


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## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> Amen.
> Why do we fight with scripture rather than allow Christ to speak to us, just as He did Saul?
> Paul misunderstood, but listened to Christ.  Can't we?



I think we can. It's just a matter of unwinding the salvation bobin to find out if we don't have a knot at the Gospel of the Kingdom and thereby skipped it and went right to the Great Commission from the  next day I received the Holy Spirit without ---this neccesary quality time and talk and aquaintance with Jesus.

Perhaps.


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## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> I concede that this is reasonable explanation



Something to consider as far as the possibility of a believer being able to be cold or lukewarm is just who is the Author and Finisher of our faith? Christ is the beginning and end of it. It is Christ who sustains. That work He begins in us, He perfects. I can assure you that "I will spue thee out of my mouth" will not be any of his sheep!

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> Something to consider as far as the possibility of a believer being able to be cold or lukewarm is just who is the Author and Finisher of our faith? Christ is the beginning and end of it. It is Christ who sustains. That work He begins in us, He perfects. I can assure you that "I will spue thee out of my mouth" will not be any of his sheep!
> 
> "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."



Who here is created in Christ Jesus? ( Note I'm not asking who is saved.)I submit that this creation is not something that just happens as a free gift....one needs willingly to submit, perhaps? And yet, even  after this, Paul had the choice to be baptised or not! I feel that saved is as saved does.


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## Ronnie T

gordon 2 said:


> Who here is created in Christ Jesus? I submit that this creation is not something that just happens as a free gift....one needs willingly to submit, perhaps? And yet, even  after this, Paul had the choice to be baptised or not!



Thank you.  Yes.
If there weren't an ability to submit and make a choice, those letters Jesus wrote as recorded in Revelation would never have been necessary.  Matter of fact, they would have been worthless.


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## 1gr8bldr

gordon 2 said:


> Who here is created in Christ Jesus? I submit that this creation is not something that just happens as a free gift....one needs willingly to submit, perhaps? And yet, even  after this, Paul had the choice to be baptised or not! I feel that saved is as saved does.


This is a good topic for discussion


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## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> Who here is created in Christ Jesus?


The new creature.


gordon 2 said:


> I submit that this creation is not something that just happens as a free gift....one needs willingly to submit, perhaps?


This is the work entirely of Almighty God. This new creature is formed for righteousness and holiness. These works that God has "before ordained" will be performed. This is the Lord's doing.


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## gordon 2

1gr8bldr said:


> This is a good topic for discussion


 Or another can of worms. LOL

Why don't we ask the political forum  (this is off topic)....but what is the chance of the regular rough necks on the political forum sending a Christmas Card to the Dixie Chicks this year? ( even as a question this is almost unthinkable) Or, better sending an apology to Miss Maquire, Miss Robinson and Miss Maines for mistaking them as unamerican?


Just as some folk are for Dems and others for Reps. and one seeing the other as  the reason the country is going to the can  and add  a few folk saintly folk in the mix that are simply for all of Georgia, I think it is gona stay that way for a couple of hundred years yet.

Think of it this way, Ebenizer Scrooge visited by the ghosts of the Dixie Chicks--Christmas past, present and future--this is the kind of stuff we need to change hearts...because salvation alone is not cutting it.

No I am not drunk... I'm free trowing, or blind folded and batting Hail Marys.

It might be a good topic...but the discussion is predictable....I think.


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## Artfuldodger

gtparts said:


> I believe that this section of Revelation (the letters to the churches) is more than a warning to specific churches of that day, but to individuals and churches that may be contemporary to the reading of the Word, whomever that may be, at whatever time. If the shoe fits, change shoes! To be warned of impending jeopardy is just another example of God's grace.



Almost everything in the Bible was written to a specific  Church, city, nation, etc. Figuring out how or if it pertains to Jews, non-Christians, the people of just Sodom, or present day Christians & Churches is the question.
What would be the difference of why it would pertain to an ancient Church but not a contempary Church or am I missing the point?


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Of course not.
> 
> But getting so close to the world (standards) is like taking the grace of God for granted, not a good thing.



If works aren't in the equation, what is the reason of this post? Those Churches almost lost their accreditation. Maybe not a requirement for salvation but still important. 
When you really think about Jesus & the New Covenant, it's all about "love." The rules, or some of them, are still important but should not be as important as love. Jesus taught to "love thy neighbor", "help the poor", "turn the other cheek", and "forgive others".
To sum it up "actions speak louder than words."
The lukewarmness of a Church or individuals is geared to a Church getting into the "talk" but not the "walk."
Far be it from me to not need help in this field.
Example: We saw a couple entering Soperton on bicycles pulling a dog in a wagon. It was getting late. This was right before Christmas. They were looking for guidance on whether to head for Swainsboro or go to Dublin. We gave them some money and some contacts in Dublin to help them out. After we left them we thought of the Christmas story and how that could have been Joseph, Mary, and baby Jesus(dog). I know it wasn't but I hope it showed the importance of helping people to my kids. 
But on the negative side, I could count ten episodes where I didn't help strangers or poor people but i'm working on it.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> But on the negative side, I could count ten episodes where I didn't help strangers or poor people but i'm working on it.



In helping the poor, are we to help poor believers or just anybody? Your thoughts and scripture please.


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> In helping the poor, are we to help poor believers or just anybody? Your thoughts and scripture please.



I don't have any scriptures handy but I would think we should help people regardless of their salvation. Showing kindness to everyone including our enemies would show what a big part of Christianity is all about.


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## Artfuldodger

I just found some scriptures. I don't see any that discriminate against helping poor Muslims or Jews. I do know that mission work involves helping non-Christian poor people.
Scriptures from this site:
http://www.friendships.org/Scriptures.html

1 John 3:17 But if someone who is supposed to be a Christian has money enough to live well, and sees a brother in need, and won't help him--how can God's love be within him ? 1 John 3:18 Little children, let us stop just saying we love people; let us really love them, and show it by our actions. 1 John 3:19 Then we will know for sure, by our actions, that we are on God's side, and our consciences will be clear, even when we stand before the Lord.

James 2:14 Dear brothers, what's the use of saying that you have faith and are Christians if you aren't proving it by helping others? Will that kind of faith save anyone? James 2:15 If you have a friend who is in need of food and clothing, James 2:16 and you say to him, "Well, good-bye and God bless you; stay warm and eat hearty," and then don't give him clothes or food, what good does that do? James 2:17 So you see, it isn't enough just to have faith. You must also do good to prove that you have it. Faith that doesn't show itself by good works is no faith at all--it is dead and useless. James 2:18 But someone may well argue, "You say the way to God is by faith alone, plus nothing; well, I say that good works are important too, for without good works you can't prove whether you have faith or not; but anyone can see that I have faith by the way I act." James 2:19 Are there still some among you who hold that "only believing" is enough? Believing in one God? Well, remember that the demons believe this too--so strongly that they tremble in terror! James 2:20 Fool! When will you ever learn that "believing" is useless without doing what God wants you to? Faith that does not result in good deeds is not real faith.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have any scriptures handy but I would think we should help people regardless of their salvation. Showing kindness to everyone including our enemies would show what a big part of Christianity is all about.



I can't find it at the moment but I read a thought provoking article recently that touched on this subject. Regarding the physical poor, spiritual poor and poor believers. If I come across it, I will post it as a new thread.


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## StriperAddict

*Love indeed!*



Artfuldodger said:


> If works aren't in the equation, what is the reason of this post? Those Churches almost lost their accreditation. Maybe not a requirement for salvation but still important.
> When you really think about Jesus & the New Covenant, it's all about "love." The rules, or some of them, are still important but should not be as important as love. Jesus taught to "love thy neighbor", "help the poor", "turn the other cheek", and "forgive others".
> To sum it up "actions speak louder than words."
> The lukewarmness of a Church or individuals is geared to a Church getting into the "talk" but not the "walk."
> Far be it from me to not need help in this field.
> Example: We saw a couple entering Soperton on bicycles pulling a dog in a wagon. It was getting late. This was right before Christmas. They were looking for guidance on whether to head for Swainsboro or go to Dublin. We gave them some money and some contacts in Dublin to help them out. After we left them we thought of the Christmas story and how that could have been Joseph, Mary, and baby Jesus(dog). I know it wasn't but I hope it showed the importance of helping people to my kids.
> But on the negative side, I could count ten episodes where I didn't help strangers or poor people but i'm working on it.


 
Good post, I am in agreement. (See post 51.)  I'll add that faith worketh by love... 

Trying to touch these Rev. passages again, I would do disservice to the body of Christ to proclaim a "yoke" that God never intended.  We are free from the law through the body of Christ.

Moving on...
Check Romans 1:18-20

Here Paul talks about the supression of truth in unrighteousness; This is heartbreaking to the Spirit of Grace, and dangerous in terms of _another person's chance at salvation_. What is also important, as I stated earlier, is the reputation of the Lord and His body.  

The unredeemed supress truth every day by walking in their own nature, or the sinful Adamic nature. (*A)  They supress truth by walking in _blatent sin_, or "unrighteousness" as Paul says in the verse.

Paul continues to talk about that blatent pattern developing in the rest of Ch 1 of Romans. 

What I see in the Rev. verses are the disiplinary checks and attention of a loving Lord to put right what has gone astray. These believers are (IMO) prodigals, having left the understanding of their Redeemer (truth supressed) by their laying down the dependency they once had on Providence.  
The "gold" of their renewed faith will no doubt go thru the cauldron of testing in the Lord -  that, of a certainty Christ dwells within, and will, thru trials, show up... to hearts willing.  "For the moment *all discipline seems painful* rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it."   Hebrews 12:11 

The Laodeciens lack of intimacy with Christ had earthly consequences, the mixed message that kept others from drawing near to the truth of the cross.  Wether or not they came back around and accepted the chastisement of the Lord maybe we won't know until we're home.  

Finally, can it be said that him who beholds Christ daily, has the earmark of the love of Christ, and enjoys that love and shares it freely?  Art, you hit upon that above. And I gotta say I'd love for those teachers in the body to train their flock in the "drawing near" process and not in the "rules" process.  Shame comes from messages that disqualify the believer and not edify (50 reasons why you ain't gettin' healed! ... comes to mind ).   


Trust me, if ever it looks as if I'm suggesting I can walk/be a Christian in the power of my flesh, call me on it.  It is probably the most disgusting "religious" thing one can "do"...  and miss the Cross of Christ entirely.





(*A) It is not _"acts" of sin_ which send an unbeliever to a Godless eternity, it is their _sinful nature_, inherited from their father Adam. Remember how Jesus said to the Pharisees that if they really _were "of their father Abraham"_ (who believed God and by faith was counted as righteous.. before the law) that they would believe Christ and His word?  
Perhaps a topic for another discussion


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