# Torn Up Knee...



## jcountry (Nov 8, 2017)

My lab went lamp on his left hind leg.  

Took him to the vet and they did 500 bucks worth of x rays and such to tell me that he will need surgery for a torn ACL and a torn meniscus.    

Anyone have experience with this?    

How are the outcomes for this sort of thing?   From what I gather, if untreated, the larger breeds will develop bad arthritis from this.   If they do surgery, the joint is supposed to be better, but it won't ever be fully back again.   

Looking for experiences/opinions on this situation.   I've never had a dog with this problem before.


----------



## RacinNut (Nov 8, 2017)

Theres alot of info on the internet about this injury, my Lab. Zach did the same thing and I went thru the tests and was told he needed surgery, that cost $3600, I studied the injury and also posted here and on another Lab site, most all said to get the surgery, I decised on the Conservative Method of treatment with my Vets concent, I worked with Zach everyday for a full year on keeping him from running and he stayed on a leash most of the time, slowly he got better,it was very hard on him and me to keep him as calm as possible, because he was used to running and doing what Labs. do, now 2 years later if he runs to much or overdoes he will limp for a few days and seems to get better, I have a large fenced in yard and he has turned into a big house dog, Zach is not a hunter but he loves to swim and play, I will never know if I did the correct thing or not by not getting the surgery, Zach is seven now and gets around pretty good, I don't know what will happen in his old age, GOOD LUCK and I know this injury is hard on you and your Lab.


----------



## HuntDawg (Nov 8, 2017)

My. 7.5 year old Yellow Female Lab tore her left rearACL last July. No idea how she did it. We had TPLO surgery first of August last year. First 12 weeks were terrible. Hard to watch her try to squat to relieve herself. Pain meds galore, anxiety meds galore, no going outside without a leash for 12 weeks, even with fenced back yard.

Took her on her first dove hunt about 3 weeks ago. She did well. 

Today, you can not tell she had surgery until she runs. She seems to have a little more hop to her step in the back at running speed. Actually, it may be no different and I am just seeing things. 

I plan to leave her with my cousin ( Professional Trainer) for a few days while we are out of town during Thanksgiving, and see what he thinks about her gallop.

I hunt flooded fields in Mississippi and am leaning toward not taking her anymore. Maybe just stick to dove hunts and occasional pond hunts.

Regardless, she is my buddy, and the best darn dog I have ever owned..

$4,000, but I do not regret it. She is happy, lives to retrieve, and no one would know she was ever injured if I did not tell them.

I will find a way to hunt her, even if it is not my flooded fields.


----------



## Mexican Squealer (Nov 9, 2017)

If you love the dog, get the surgery.


----------



## Johnny44 (Dec 1, 2017)

Mexican Squealer said:


> If you love the dog, get the surgery.



This.......................................  My pit has had both knees replaced


----------



## gunslinger33 (Dec 11, 2017)

Many years ago we had an Akita that tore his ACL. I had the surgery performed at UGA. He was a pretty large Akita and around 2 years old at the time of surgery. Trying to control his usage of his leg after surgery was difficult and lengthy. He never regained complete motion but he wasn't suffering either. 

How old is your dog? What do you use him for? If he is a hunter and older I wouldn't expect full recovery. I would make sure whomever performs the surgery (if you go that route) provides you with several references for you to talk to about their results. I would also consider having his other knee , elbows and hips OFA'D just to see if there are any genetic concerns.


----------



## Joe Overby (Dec 15, 2017)

The number 1 man in this part of the country was at Auburn...he has since started his own practice in Fla. Being as Ga and Texas are the wintertime meccas for labrador field trials, some of the best in the country are here for 6 months or more...they recommended him so that's where I'd be heading.  The only other place I'd consider would be UGA. I'll look when I get home and try to find you some more info from the last time i was at auburn.


----------



## Kline2054 (Dec 15, 2017)

always recommend UGA or Auburn

they have two of the best vet programs in the country


----------



## jcountry (Dec 19, 2017)

gunslinger33 said:


> Many years ago we had an Akita that tore his ACL. I had the surgery performed at UGA. He was a pretty large Akita and around 2 years old at the time of surgery. Trying to control his usage of his leg after surgery was difficult and lengthy. He never regained complete motion but he wasn't suffering either.
> 
> How old is your dog? What do you use him for? If he is a hunter and older I wouldn't expect full recovery. I would make sure whomever performs the surgery (if you go that route) provides you with several references for you to talk to about their results. I would also consider having his other knee , elbows and hips OFA'D just to see if there are any genetic concerns.





He is about 10.    Very small for a lab.  (About 65 lbs.)   He seems to be doing pretty good now.   Usually getting around without limping.   

I'm still not sure what to do.     He isn't a working dog.  He doesn't really run or do anything crazy, but every once in a while he takes off after a squirrel and that leg starts bothering him again.   

They recommend TPLO surgery.   Wow!    That stuff is crazy expensive.  From what I have read, that surgery will make the knee stronger and will result in less arthritis, but he will always have a limp.    Surgery seems risky (infections and screwups, etc.)   Not having surgery seems risky.    I just don't know.


----------



## gunslinger33 (Dec 19, 2017)

JCountry

I would reach out to UGA for an evaluation. You might need a referral from your vet , I'm not sure. Joe will certainly be a better person than I will  as far as Labs go but 10 would concern me. Surgery is pretty invasive and recovery is long and slow , especially for an older dog. I am not familiar with Auburn's services but they are one of the top vet schools.


----------



## Raylander (Dec 20, 2017)

My Lab/Hound (75 lbs) mix needed the surgery when he was 3 or 4. Long story short- I didn't have the $$ (college tuition,etc). We didn't get the surgery.. Kept him inside or on leash for ~4 months. He is now 11 and runs, jumps like a 5 yr Old. He is starting to slow down and maybe pick up  a tiny touch of arthritis, but again he is 11 and we have had lots of fun in the rivers and woods. That said I've seen dogs have great results from surgery and I've also seen dogs that had the surgery and will never run again..


----------



## jcountry (Dec 20, 2017)

I guess the main thing that concerns me is what happens if he has problems in his other leg.    He can get around OK if his good leg is fine, but IDK how he would do if he tore the other CCL also.  

It's a tough decision.   Surgery has risks, and he is not a young dog.   Not a working dog.    Not sure which way I'm gonna go.


----------



## Day trip (Dec 21, 2017)

The general consensus on this forum is broad and is correct.  There is a lot of variation in a dog’s response to CCL injuries.  Some dogs appear to do quite well without surgical repair but that is entirely based on the sheer grit and determination of the dog.  It’s really quite dumbfounding considering the symptoms that most dogs have with a torn ligament.  Radiographically these dogs would be expected to be in a lot of pain, they just hide it really well.  Regardless, surgical repair is always preferred.  Arthritis develops pretty quickly in an injured knee and can become debilitating.  

There are also great variations in how dogs respond to surgery.  The most significant factors are 1) the length of time from the injury until surgery and 2) proper post operative rehabilitation. 3) The physical condition of the dog prior to surgery.  Big fat dogs often have bad habits such as being lazy and overeating.  They often have bilateral disease and post op rehab can be very difficult.  

When dogs tear a cruciate ligament they may either start with a partial tear/internal fiber release or have an acute total rupture of the ligament.  The acute rupture is the best scenario.  The dog is usually acutely non-weight bearing and is usually seen early in the disease process.  The surgery is performed, the dog heals and you rarely see any more symptoms.  For the dog with a partial tear, the dog may not be seen by a vet for quite a while.  It may seem to get better and then 1-3 years later with intermittent limping,  the dog will either complete the rupture and/or developed such severe arthritis that even with surgical repair, you still have an arthritic old knee that has significant symptoms after surgery.  If these dogs are seen early, sometimes medical management can return them to full function but often times the deterioration continues despite valiant efforts and surgery is required.  

The degree of arthritis prior to surgery always dictates the degree of function after surgery.  Surgery does not take an arthritic knee and make it new.  Vets cannot replace knees in dogs like they do in humans.  That is the major factor in post operative success.  The moral is, if you are going to have it fixed, do so early.  Even waiting 2-3 months will result in some visible arthritic changes at surgery.  

With all this in mind, do not forget about private practitioners who perform the lateral suture technique.  It costs much less and with an experienced surgeon, it has great results.  I can attest to over 500 cases where if you’re not starting with a worn out arthritic knee, the dog will do great.   TPLO results in less post operative osteoarthritis but properly performed, the lateral suture technique is a great second choice.  I personally don’t know too many people that can drop $4000-$5000 for the possibility of being a little less arthritic in a few years.  Prognosis is more dependent on the age of the injury and post op rehab.  

Finally, if you cannot go to surgery, limit the dogs activity and put him on a diet.  He will need to spend time scarring up and stabilizing the knee (developing arthritis) in a functional manner.  By active progressive controlled activity (rehabilitation)  and keeping him rediculously thin, you give him the best chance to have a good quality of life.


----------



## ScottA (Jan 24, 2018)

My yellow lab, Max, had the same injury in BOTH, of his rear legs when he was was 2.5 years old. He had his first TPLO surgery on his left rear leg in February of 2011 at the UGA vet school. Once he was mostly recovered from the first surgery, he went back to UGA for his second TPLO on his right rear leg in June of 2011. He developed an infection in the right rear leg in December of 2011 and had a third surgery to remove the plate and screws in his right leg 4 days before Christmas. He was finally able to run again, off leash in February of 2012, 12 months and about $7500 after he was diagnosed. Have you ever tried to keep a 2 -3 year old lab still for 12 months?
Max was not a hunter, but I was training to blood trail. He had found afew deer during the 2010 season. He tore his ligament doing what he loves, chasing and retrieving a ball. if he overran a ball, he would try to stop and turn on a dime. After one such episode, he came up lame on his left rear leg. After about 5 minutes he was putting weight on the leg and after about 15 minutes he wasn't showing any signs of injury. After this happened again a couple of weeks later, I took him to the vet and he was diagnosed.
Max has not had any trouble since and is now 9.5 years old.


----------

