# Who are the elect?



## mtnwoman

My son in law is going thru this thing of trying to figure out the elect of God....in his understanding only the elect of God can be saved. As if God chooses us, and He doesn't choose others.
My stance is that God wants everyone to be saved and even though God already knows who and who will not be saved, He (God) doesn't pick and choose who He wants to be saved. We choose. My son in law says no, God chooses us.....in particular.

I assume I am part of the elect since I'm saved, but does that mean that God chose me over another person to be saved?

I told my son in law that if God chooses who He wants to draw only, then what's the purpose of us preaching the gospel. If God didn't "elect" that person then I'd be wasting my breath and if God did elect them, then they'd get it on their own.

He was using Romans and Paul and all that and I told him that was when the first church was being put together and the elect were those ones that God chose to put that together....ie God elected Moses, Elijah, Paul etc to service Him.

I can't even get son in laws argument, ie he ask me why God hardened Pharoah's heart....huh? Why didn't God draw Pharoah?...I believe He did and Pharoah refused.

I'm not confused about it, I just can't accept the fact that the elect are the ones God chose to be saved and everyone else is out of luck.
Even though I realize that God drew me, and He called me to be a 'disciple', my son in law says that everyone isn't drawn.
I said well that's why nonChristians have an attitude about us saying we are the chosen, as if they weren't good enough to be chosen.

Gee I hope all that makes since. I'm sure most of you know  about this debate on this subject.

SIL says I didn't really have a choice in it, either we are elected or not, we can't elect ourselves....alrighty then.


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## Dr. Strangelove

Hmmm... an interesting question based on logic and reasoning

Sorry Ma'am, can't have those here...


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## hummerpoo

I'm in your son in law's camp on this one but at the same time I fully understand your concerns because they are legitimate.  One thing we can be sure of, we aren't going to settle the question for everybody, its been going on at least since Augustine and Pelageus.  The one thing I would ask you, please don't let anybody pull you into the group that becomes hateful about the issue.

I told my son in law that if God chooses who He wants to draw only, then what's the purpose of us preaching the gospel. If God didn't "elect" that person then I'd be wasting my breath and if God did elect them, then they'd get it on their own.
Those who believe in the total soveriegnty of God are often acused of this belief, but I've not known anyone who really believes this way.  The question is, did God tell you who He has elected.  If not, and you believe that He works through His people (that's you and the preacher) you'd better listen closely to what He is telling you to do, and that is probably going to be to be His witness in the world.  He tells us that in His word.  And I see a lot of Him telling us that actions speak louder than words.

I said well that's why nonChristians have an attitude about us saying we are the chosen, as if they weren't good enough to be chosen.
If we follow God's commandments about love that will never happen.  Those who think they are better than others because of the favor of God are using the wrong standard for judging themselves.

SIL says I didn't really have a choice in it, either we are elected or not, we can't elect ourselves
No man will ever fully understand God or why He does what He does but He has revealed some of it to us and I don't see anything about God that would allow a man to overrule anything of His.  It seems to me that the free will side of this question tends to, intentionally or unintentionally, raise man and lower God.  The God who spoke the universe into existance is one that I want to serve (if He allows me) to His glory.

This is an important issue, but we must remember that God and His glory will always rule the day. 



mtnwoman said:


> My son in law is going thru this thing of trying to figure out the elect of God....in his understanding only the elect of God can be saved. As if God chooses us, and He doesn't choose others.
> My stance is that God wants everyone to be saved and even though God already knows who and who will not be saved, He (God) doesn't pick and choose who He wants to be saved. We choose. My son in law says no, God chooses us.....in particular.
> 
> I assume I am part of the elect since I'm saved, but does that mean that God chose me over another person to be saved?
> 
> 
> I told my son in law that if God chooses who He wants to draw only, then what's the purpose of us preaching the gospel. If God didn't "elect" that person then I'd be wasting my breath and if God did elect them, then they'd get it on their own.
> 
> He was using Romans and Paul and all that and I told him that was when the first church was being put together and the elect were those ones that God chose to put that together....ie God elected Moses, Elijah, Paul etc to service Him.
> 
> I can't even get son in laws argument, ie he ask me why God hardened Pharoah's heart....huh? Why didn't God draw Pharoah?...I believe He did and Pharoah refused.
> 
> I'm not confused about it, I just can't accept the fact that the elect are the ones God chose to be saved and everyone else is out of luck.
> Even though I realize that God drew me, and He called me to be a 'disciple', my son in law says that everyone isn't drawn.
> I said well that's why nonChristians have an attitude about us saying we are the chosen, as if they weren't good enough to be chosen.
> 
> Gee I hope all that makes since. I'm sure most of you know  about this debate on this subject.
> 
> SIL says I didn't really have a choice in it, either we are elected or not, we can't elect ourselves....alrighty then.


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## mtnwoman

hummerpoo said:


> I'm in your son in law's camp on this one but at the same time I fully understand your concerns because they are legitimate.  One thing we can be sure of, we aren't going to settle the question for everybody, its been going on at least since Augustine and Pelageus.  The one thing I would ask you, please don't let anybody pull you into the group that becomes hateful about the issue.
> 
> I told my son in law that if God chooses who He wants to draw only, then what's the purpose of us preaching the gospel. If God didn't "elect" that person then I'd be wasting my breath and if God did elect them, then they'd get it on their own.
> Those who believe in the total soveriegnty of God are often acused of this belief, but I've not known anyone who really believes this way.  The question is, did God tell you who He has elected.  If not, and you believe that He works through His people (that's you and the preacher) you'd better listen closely to what He is telling you to do, and that is probably going to be to be His witness in the world.  He tells us that in His word.  And I see a lot of Him telling us that actions speak louder than words.
> 
> I said well that's why nonChristians have an attitude about us saying we are the chosen, as if they weren't good enough to be chosen.
> If we follow God's commandments about love that will never happen.  Those who think they are better than others because of the favor of God are using the wrong standard for judging themselves.
> 
> SIL says I didn't really have a choice in it, either we are elected or not, we can't elect ourselves
> No man will ever fully understand God or why He does what He does but He has revealed some of it to us and I don't see anything about God that would allow a man to overrule anything of His.  It seems to me that the free will side of this question tends to, intentionally or unintentionally, raise man and lower God.  The God who spoke the universe into existance is one that I want to serve (if He allows me) to His glory.
> 
> This is an important issue, but we must remember that God and His glory will always rule the day.



Well basically you agree with my sil the way I see it.

God gave us free will...period. That was a gift. He chooses us all! I chose to accept the invitation, not all do. But I do not believe God would pick me and not choose/pick/elect  my baby sister sleeping next to me  to be saved whatever reason he chooses, without any free will for her to choose. I have an attitude about that. And if He is really a respector of persons then I have a problem with that, too.

Then if all that is true, why does He need me to tell someone He chooses about the gospel?....He woed them, like he wooed me, He don't need me. I could be helping some old lady fix her food, or make her bed rather than running around telling 'unelected' people about Jesus.


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## JB0704

This thread gets into it pretty good around post #64.  

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=632614&page=2

I think the logical problem is an "all knowing" God.  If he is omniscient, then he knows before you are born whether or not you will choose him.  That would rule out the "free will" part of the equation, and essentially mean you were appointed for heaven, and others for he11.  I don't buy into this argument because you get yourself into a logical "loop."  God would just be playing out the act that he wrote which he knew he would write before he wrote it.  

There are verses about predestination, but, like all scripture, they can be looked at in several different ways.  Very few people will change their position on this.


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## hummerpoo

mtnwoman said:


> Well basically you agree with my sil the way I see it.
> 
> God gave us free will...period. That was a gift. He chooses us all! I chose to accept the invitation, not all do. But I do not believe God would pick me and not choose/pick/elect  my baby sister sleeping next to me  to be saved whatever reason he chooses, without any free will for her to choose. I have an attitude about that. And if He is really a respector of persons then I have a problem with that, too.
> 
> Then if all that is true, why does He need me to tell someone He chooses about the gospel?....He woed them, like he wooed me, He don't need me. I could be helping some old lady fix her food, or make her bed rather than running around telling 'unelected' people about Jesus.



I apologize for not percieving your attitude from your OP.  It was not my intent to try to change your mind, only trying to advance understanding.


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## tmiller

An excellent resource to learn more about the doctrines of grace is Richard Belcher's book "A journey in grace". It is very easy to read, and I pray that in every study we will let scripture interpret scripture and let the Holy Spirit guide us and grow us in truth.


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> My son in law is going thru this thing of trying to figure out the elect of God....in his understanding only the elect of God can be saved. As if God chooses us, and He doesn't choose others.
> My stance is that God wants everyone to be saved and even though God already knows who and who will not be saved, He (God) doesn't pick and choose who He wants to be saved. We choose. My son in law says no, God chooses us.....in particular.
> 
> I assume I am part of the elect since I'm saved, but does that mean that God chose me over another person to be saved?
> 
> I told my son in law that if God chooses who He wants to draw only, then what's the purpose of us preaching the gospel. If God didn't "elect" that person then I'd be wasting my breath and if God did elect them, then they'd get it on their own.
> 
> He was using Romans and Paul and all that and I told him that was when the first church was being put together and the elect were those ones that God chose to put that together....ie God elected Moses, Elijah, Paul etc to service Him.
> 
> I can't even get son in laws argument, ie he ask me why God hardened Pharoah's heart....huh? Why didn't God draw Pharoah?...I believe He did and Pharoah refused.
> 
> I'm not confused about it, I just can't accept the fact that the elect are the ones God chose to be saved and everyone else is out of luck.
> Even though I realize that God drew me, and He called me to be a 'disciple', my son in law says that everyone isn't drawn.
> I said well that's why nonChristians have an attitude about us saying we are the chosen, as if they weren't good enough to be chosen.
> 
> Gee I hope all that makes since. I'm sure most of you know  about this debate on this subject.
> 
> SIL says I didn't really have a choice in it, either we are elected or not, we can't elect ourselves....alrighty then.



Annie,

We've had some good debates in the past but I'm not going to debate with you here.  I don't think I need to offer any opinion as it appears to me that you have started asking the right questions on your own.  You seem like a very nice lady and I truly hope that your quest for the truth leads you to a place of peace, understanding and enlightenment.

Welcome to the Rabbit Hole, Alice.


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## Ronnie T

"Elect" as used from the Greek doesn't have the same meaning as our understanding of the word.

It's one of those words that can be researched really well.

It doesn't mean that God lined us up and chose who he would save and who He would refuse.

It's based upon one's faith and love of God's truth.


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## sea trout

Ronnie T said:


> "Elect" as used from the Greek doesn't have the same meaning as our understanding of the word.
> 
> It's one of those words that can be researched really well.
> 
> It doesn't mean that God lined us up and chose who he would save and who He would refuse.
> 
> It's based upon one's faith and love of God's truth.



one could make any word in GODS BOOK mean anything they want with this research


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## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> "Elect" as used from the Greek doesn't have the same meaning as our understanding of the word.
> 
> It's one of those words that can be researched really well.
> 
> It doesn't mean that God lined us up and chose who he would save and who He would refuse.
> 
> It's based upon one's faith and love of God's truth.



This really goes to the heart of much of our not fully grasping parts of the Bible.

For example: A person can run for public office, be elected, but choose not to be sworn in or serve. 

Election, as used in Scripture, underscores the truth that God is committed to redeeming all who will be redeemed. He has no intent to drag the unrepentant or unbelieving to dwell in heaven with Him. 

While Scripture tells us, God created the Place of Ultimate Torment for Satan and the fallen angels, it is clear that PUT will be the eternal dwelling place for those who reject Him and His provision for their salvation. After the "harvest", He will certainly separate the "wheat" from the "tares". He has deemed PUT to be appropriate for that purpose. 

The other problem involves how some people understand God's omniscience.
 Knowing that the Braves game starts at 7:05 pm next Wed. in no way means I bear responsibility for it happening. 
Likewise, God's foreknowledge of choices we may make in the future is not causation.

Look at it this way, folks. Let's say the legal authorities make a law that eating blueberry muffins with room temperature cream soda is unlawful and subject to a penalty of 30 minutes in a portable john at a county construction site. 
Subsequently, CH eats blueberry muffins with room temperature cream soda, is video taped, arrested, confesses, is convicted, and does his 30 min. Does it mean that the legal authorities caused CH to violate the law, after all, they created it? If they knew prior to the infraction, that CH would break the law, does that really mean that they caused him to take such felonious action?

God has expressed His love towards us and His conditional intent (desire and commitment) for us. Does His foreknowledge of our choices necessarily force us to make those choices? Because God functions without the constraints of time, He can observe and know, yet He does not violate the free will He has given us.  
To some, it may be an enigma or a paradox, because their preconceptions color how they look at things,..... including how they define certain words.

Once you get past those issues, election and foreknowledge, it should be easier to grasp how God's sovereignty and our free will dovetail. Free will allows us to choose to do things His way.


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## mtnwoman

My daughter sent me this and I think this is pretty much how I see it.
I know God already knows what's gonna happen, doesn't mean that is what He chose for each person. He chooses that none to perish, then it's up to us to accept or not. When we do accept we become part of the elect.

Anyway here's the link..

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/biblical_election.htm

....


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## ambush80

gtparts said:


> This really goes to the heart of much of our not fully grasping parts of the Bible.
> 
> For example: A person can run for public office, be elected, but choose not to be sworn in or serve.
> 
> Election, as used in Scripture, underscores the truth that God is committed to redeeming all who will be redeemed. He has no intent to drag the unrepentant or unbelieving to dwell in heaven with Him.
> 
> While Scripture tells us, God created the Place of Ultimate Torment for Satan and the fallen angels, it is clear that PUT will be the eternal dwelling place for those who reject Him and His provision for their salvation. After the "harvest", He will certainly separate the "wheat" from the "tares". He has deemed PUT to be appropriate for that purpose.
> 
> The other problem involves how some people understand God's omniscience.
> Knowing that the Braves game starts at 7:05 pm next Wed. in no way means I bear responsibility for it happening.
> Likewise, God's foreknowledge of choices we may make in the future is not causation.
> 
> Look at it this way, folks. Let's say the legal authorities make a law that eating blueberry muffins with room temperature cream soda is unlawful and subject to a penalty of 30 minutes in a portable john at a county construction site.
> Subsequently, CH eats blueberry muffins with room temperature cream soda, is video taped, arrested, confesses, is convicted, and does his 30 min. Does it mean that the legal authorities caused CH to violate the law, after all, they created it? If they knew prior to the infraction, that CH would break the law, does that really mean that they caused him to take such felonious action?
> 
> God has expressed His love towards us and His conditional intent (desire and commitment) for us. Does His foreknowledge of our choices necessarily force us to make those choices? Because God functions without the constraints of time, He can observe and know, yet He does not violate the free will He has given us.
> To some, it may be an enigma or a paradox, because their preconceptions color how they look at things,..... including how they define certain words.
> 
> Once you get past those issues, election and foreknowledge, it should be easier to grasp how God's sovereignty and our free will dovetail. Free will allows us to choose to do things His way.



Using your premise as a given:

I can accept that even though God may know what my destiny is, He isn't necessarily the cause of events in my life.  I think that some will argue that God does indeed cause all things to happen.  Some may think that He just sits back and watches things unfold, after all, if He interceded in someone's life then due to His omnipotence, He knew that He was going to intercede and He knew what the end result of His intercession would be. 

If God knows that I am destined for He11 then there's nothing that anybody can do to change it, not even me. If my destiny was written in the stars before the beginning of time then I'm never going to do anything other than what I was meant to do, repent or reject included.

I've heard people say "Boy, that guy is just unlucky."   According to your premise, that may indeed be true and "that guy" was just meant to have a sucky life.  

I don't want to believe that. I prefer to operate as though there is no predestined plan.  I'm going to chug along, doing the best I can with what I've got and keep trying to make good decisions with the belief that I can affect the things that happen in my life.


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## Bama4me

JB0704 said:


> This thread gets into it pretty good around post #64.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=632614&page=2
> 
> I think the logical problem is an "all knowing" God.  If he is omniscient, then he knows before you are born whether or not you will choose him.  That would rule out the "free will" part of the equation, and essentially mean you were appointed for heaven, and others for he11.  I don't buy into this argument because you get yourself into a logical "loop."  God would just be playing out the act that he wrote which he knew he would write before he wrote it.
> 
> There are verses about predestination, but, like all scripture, they can be looked at in several different ways.  Very few people will change their position on this.



Disagree completely... just because God KNOWS an event is going to occur doesn't mean God removes free will of people involved from the equation.  Here's the biggest rub of all for those who believe God has elected certain people to be saved.  2 Peter 3:9 clearly states God desires ALL people to be saved.  IF He has "elected" folks to be saved and folks to be lost, this passage lies in the worst possible way.

Here's how "election" works.  Before the foundation of the world, God designated two groups and their destiny for all living in the Christian age.  Those who'd believe and obey Christ would be saved... those who reject Him would be lost.  In the same way a teacher "predestines" his/her students to pass/fail is the same way God "predestined" folks to be saved/lost... it is by way of being in a certain group, not on an individual level.  Mtnwoman... you're absolutely correct.


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## Ronnie T

Some very good "attempts" to explain it all.
I wonder how close my explanation came...... Or the others of you?

It's always tough for me to explain God.


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## mtnwoman

hummerpoo said:


> I apologize for not percieving your attitude from your OP.  It was not my intent to try to change your mind, only trying to advance understanding.



I know..I knew you weren't trying to change my mind. You gave me what I was asking for, your opinion, thanks!!


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## JB0704

Bama4me said:


> Disagree completely... just because God KNOWS an event is going to occur doesn't mean God removes free will of people involved from the equation.  Here's the biggest rub of all for those who believe God has elected certain people to be saved.  2 Peter 3:9 clearly states God desires ALL people to be saved.  IF He has "elected" folks to be saved and folks to be lost, this passage lies in the worst possible way.
> 
> Here's how "election" works.  Before the foundation of the world, God designated two groups and their destiny for all living in the Christian age.  Those who'd believe and obey Christ would be saved... those who reject Him would be lost.  In the same way a teacher "predestines" his/her students to pass/fail is the same way God "predestined" folks to be saved/lost... it is by way of being in a certain group, not on an individual level.  Mtnwoman... you're absolutely correct.




If you read the link I posted, you will see that many advocates of predestination do not believe in free will. They do not believe Jesus died for all, but only those who were chosen.  For me (and I am not claiming this position as truth, just my current thoughts on the subject) this would mean an individual is born with no chance of heaven if they are not predestined.  The implications of such a position are not in line with the scripture you posted, or the nature of God as I perceive it to be.

We are going to have to remain in disagreement on the free will position.  Thank you for your efforts to clarify, but I can not follow the logic, and will never be able to see how the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.


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## LovinOutside

mtnwoman said:


> My son in law is going thru this thing of trying to figure out the elect of God....in his understanding only the elect of God can be saved. As if God chooses us, and He doesn't choose others.
> My stance is that God wants everyone to be saved and even though God already knows who and who will not be saved, He (God) doesn't pick and choose who He wants to be saved. We choose. My son in law says no, God chooses us.....in particular.
> 
> I assume I am part of the elect since I'm saved, but does that mean that God chose me over another person to be saved?
> 
> I told my son in law that if God chooses who He wants to draw only, then what's the purpose of us preaching the gospel. If God didn't "elect" that person then I'd be wasting my breath and if God did elect them, then they'd get it on their own.
> 
> He was using Romans and Paul and all that and I told him that was when the first church was being put together and the elect were those ones that God chose to put that together....ie God elected Moses, Elijah, Paul etc to service Him.
> 
> I can't even get son in laws argument, ie he ask me why God hardened Pharoah's heart....huh? Why didn't God draw Pharoah?...I believe He did and Pharoah refused.
> 
> I'm not confused about it, I just can't accept the fact that the elect are the ones God chose to be saved and everyone else is out of luck.
> Even though I realize that God drew me, and He called me to be a 'disciple', my son in law says that everyone isn't drawn.
> I said well that's why nonChristians have an attitude about us saying we are the chosen, as if they weren't good enough to be chosen.
> 
> Gee I hope all that makes since. I'm sure most of you know  about this debate on this subject.
> 
> SIL says I didn't really have a choice in it, either we are elected or not, we can't elect ourselves....alrighty then.



It is wrong to try and figure out "the elect" as this is impossible and a waste of energy.  You cannot know the secret things of God's will. He does not tell us.  We are not responsible for that.  

Deut. 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law."

Now, in general, the position you are referring to is Calvinism.  It is taught by many churches that are what are called Reformed.  I am "Reformed," though I was raised Southern Baptist.  It was a process but now no longer believe in the semi-arminian position that is so popular today.  I attend a Presbyterian PCA church but am really a Reformed Baptist.

Some of the greatest preachers and missionaries that ever lived were Reformed.  Charles Spurgeon, for example, was a Calvinist.  A modern preacher would be John Macarthur, a Reformed person.  This is also sometimes called "The Doctrines of Grace."

Typically, people do not understand Calvinism and mischaracterize it nowadays.  aomin.org is a good resource, James White, a Reformed Baptist.

---

Why can't you believe everyone else is out of luck?  If God saved no one would He be justified in doing so?  Everyone can be out of luck?  Why can't He do what He wants?

If you had ten people on death row, and the Governor only pardoned three of them, is the Governor justified?  Is he required to pardon the rest?  Is he justified?

---
On preaching and praying.  Why do it?  One, because God said to.  But you must understand.  It is not just people that are ordained.  The means are ordained also.  God ordains preaching and praying just as much as He ordains people.  So not only is it not a waste of time, it is doing God's exact will and actually accomplishing something.  It is never a waste of time to do God's will.

It also makes you a little less important.  God doesn't need you for anything.  He will get his man/woman no matter what.  It's about if you want to be involved in His gathering His people and allowing me to participate.

Think about this, and this will touch on what someone else said on free will.  When you pray, you pray as a Calvinist I bet.  Everyone does.  For example, when you pray for someone to be saved, do you pray that God actually save the person or do you pray that God does something that hopefully, finally convinces someone to be saved?  When I pray, I want God to do something to the person, to change them, to regenerate them, to give them the ability to believe.  I don't pray, God please help this person's free will.  No, God please change this person.  Save them.

(btw, people do have free will, they just never ever ever choose God, Rom. 3., unless God changes them and takes out their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh Ezek. 36:26.)

John 6:36-44 is a classic passage used in this debate.

SIL is right you had no choice about election but wrong if that means no choice in belief.  If God changes a heart that person always runs to God.  In this belief system, regeneration and being born again precede faith, not after it, as it is popularly preached.  He is right.  Not everyone is drawn.  If they were they'd all be saved.

There are many fine people in the Reformed camp just as they are in the non-Reformed.  I can only tell you that long ago I decided to stop trying to save "free will" and "let" God do whatever He wants as He revealed in His Scriptures.


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## mtnwoman

LovinOutside said:


> SIL is right you had no choice about election but wrong if that means no choice in belief.  If God changes a heart that person always runs to God.  In this belief system, regeneration and being born again precede faith, not after it, as it is popularly preached.  He is right.  Not everyone is drawn.  If they were they'd all be saved.



So God does pick and choose who He wants to save, if everyone isn't drawn?
What about all the scriptures that God says He doesn't want anyone to perish and wants everyone to be saved? But if He wanted everyone to be saved wouldn't He draw everyone?  and in that system we are telling the lost, the unchosen, that God drew us and not them. 

I do agree that we don't understand all of God's ways. And I do agree that when we "preach" the gospel to our lost family, friends, etc that we can help them in some way to seek and or understand the gospel and their heart can be drawn. I understand that God already knows whose gonna be saved and who isn't, too.  But it would be hard for me to look at some people and think well sorry bud, you weren't drawn so God didn't elect you to go to heaven, and nothing you can do to change that.


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## LovinOutside

mtnwoman said:


> So God does pick and choose who He wants to save, if everyone isn't drawn?
> What about all the scriptures that God says He doesn't want anyone to perish and wants everyone to be saved? But if He wanted everyone to be saved wouldn't He draw everyone?  and in that system we are telling the lost, the unchosen, that God drew us and not them.
> 
> I do agree that we don't understand all of God's ways. And I do agree that when we "preach" the gospel to our lost family, friends, etc that we can help them in some way to seek and or understand the gospel and their heart can be drawn. I understand that God already knows whose gonna be saved and who isn't, too.  But it would be hard for me to look at some people and think well sorry bud, you weren't drawn so God didn't elect you to go to heaven, and nothing you can do to change that.



In the Reformed camp, yes.  That is what they believe.  Typically passages about "all" refer to all of a certain group, not every single person, in the Reformed belief system.  Again, though, my guess is that you pray like a Calvinist.  I've never met anyone that didn't and that goes pretty much against free will, if you really want God to change someone.  

IMHO, most of the passages are all of a certain group, not every single human being.  I also believe John 6 is clear.  Whoever is drawn is saved and Jesus raises them up on the last day.

God knows things based upon His decrees.  He doesn't "look down through time" as the argument goes and attain knowledge.  He knows because He decrees.

You're not supposed to look at someone and say that.  Again, no on knows who is and isn't in the elect.  That is God's secret will.  There are many things you see and can't answer and you do this with.  Can you answer why one person's child dies (like with Job) or maybe why a catastrophe happened?  No, you can't and neither can I.  We just say, somehow, God's will will be done, and we accept that.

Anyone trying to guess if someone is elect is plain wrong.  I don't even know why someone would try and do such a thing.  God ordains preaching.  You preach someone believes.  That's all we are called to do.

I do not believe that anyone is simply wooed or enticed by God and that somehow they "wake up" without being changed and believe.  They are dead, spiritually dead, and dead people don't do anything.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> So God does pick and choose who He wants to save, if everyone isn't drawn?
> What about all the scriptures that God says He doesn't want anyone to perish and wants everyone to be saved? But if He wanted everyone to be saved wouldn't He draw everyone?  and in that system we are telling the lost, the unchosen, that God drew us and not them.
> 
> I do agree that we don't understand all of God's ways. And I do agree that when we "preach" the gospel to our lost family, friends, etc that we can help them in some way to seek and or understand the gospel and their heart can be drawn. I understand that God already knows whose gonna be saved and who isn't, too.  But it would be hard for me to look at some people and think well sorry bud, you weren't drawn so God didn't elect you to go to heaven, and nothing you can do to change that.



You're on mark here and you know you are.
Me and you don't speak this "calvinist" language and stuff.
And the only thing "reformed" about us was done on the cross.

"It is God's desire that ALL come to repentance"


----------



## LovinOutside

Ronnie T said:


> You're on mark here and you know you are.
> Me and you don't speak this "calvinist" language and stuff.
> And the only thing "reformed" about us was done on the cross.
> 
> "It is God's desire that ALL come to repentance"



You may not speak it but many great men of God have and still do.


----------



## mtnwoman

LovinOutside said:


> I do not believe that anyone is simply wooed or enticed by God and that somehow they "wake up" without being changed and believe.  They are dead, spiritually dead, and dead people don't do anything.



I guess this is the part that confusses me then, wooed or enticed or drawn all mean the same thing to me. 

What wakes them from the dead?

I was once spiritually dead, I made a conscious choice to try God since nothing else seemed to work. But if I hadn't been in the "elect" line I would've never made that choice? 

God please have mercy on the 'unelect'....they have no choice in the matter really, God please give them a choice or least a chance to make a choice, and you know who they are, you put them in that line.


----------



## mtnwoman

I don't think it's about trying to guess who the elect are, that's not what I or my sil is talking about.

I know God knows who will and who will not be saved.....knowing it doesn't mean it was His will for some to be elect and some not. I don't believe that God chose that for us. He gives us free will to choose, even though He knows whether we will or not and I believe He draws us all, some of us just don't respond, but that's our free will to respond or not.


----------



## Bama4me

JB0704 said:


> We are going to have to remain in disagreement on the free will position.  Thank you for your efforts to clarify, but I can not follow the logic, and will never be able to see how the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.



If man does not have free will, then EVERYTHING that occurs on this earth is "God's will."  Question... if God's will is always done, why did Jesus need to pray for that in the model prayer?  Also, if God's will is always done, why is everyone not saved per 2 Peter 3:9.  Simply, we can become part of the "elect" due to our sanctification by the Spirit and our belief in the truth... according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.  IF man doesn't have free will, one could remove "belief in the truth" from the passage.

Here's the biggest thing though JB... faith in God often means we take God's word for what is says... even if we don't understand completely.  Many things regarding God and spirituality seem to be either difficult to understand or nearly impossible to do so... almost as if God makes it that way so that we cannot walk by sight.


----------



## JB0704

Bama4me said:


> If man does not have free will, then EVERYTHING that occurs on this earth is "God's will."  Question... if God's will is always done, why did Jesus need to pray for that in the model prayer?  Also, if God's will is always done, why is everyone not saved per 2 Peter 3:9.  Simply, we can become part of the "elect" due to our sanctification by the Spirit and our belief in the truth... according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13.  IF man doesn't have free will, one could remove "belief in the truth" from the passage.



I do not believe in predestination.  I am a believer in free will as a concept, not a stated principle.  As far as God's will is concerned, I think the only way an individual can qualify the existence of evil is to acknowledge God does not always get his will, otherwise the existence of evil is God's will.  This brings up an important question I am currently thinking through: if God's will is not always done, what does that imply about the "omnipotent" quality.  I am really struggling with this currently because I can't wrap my head around it.  Maybe a new thread on this would be more appropriate.



Bama4me said:


> Here's the biggest thing though JB... faith in God often means we take God's word for what is says... even if we don't understand completely.  Many things regarding God and spirituality seem to be either difficult to understand or nearly impossible to do so... almost as if God makes it that way so that we cannot walk by sight.



I Peter 3:15 "But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect."

I think God wants us to understand why we believe what we believe.  I may disagree with somebody's perspective, interpretation, or application, but that does not mean I am disagreeing with God, only the individual perspective I am debating.  In light of this verse, I have always wondered why Christians get so defensive, and even rude, when they have theological disagreements.


----------



## LovinOutside

mtnwoman said:


> I guess this is the part that confusses me then, wooed or enticed or drawn all mean the same thing to me.
> 
> What wakes them from the dead?
> 
> I was once spiritually dead, I made a conscious choice to try God since nothing else seemed to work. But if I hadn't been in the "elect" line I would've never made that choice?
> 
> God please have mercy on the 'unelect'....they have no choice in the matter really, God please give them a choice or least a chance to make a choice, and you know who they are, you put them in that line.



"What wakes them from the dead?"

What made Lazarus come out of the tomb when the Lord Jesus said, "Lazarus, Come Forth!"


----------



## gtparts

JB0704 said:


> This brings up an important question I am currently thinking through: if God's will is not always done, what does that imply about the "omnipotent" quality.  I am really struggling with this currently because I can't wrap my head around it.  Maybe a new thread on this would be more appropriate.




The implication is that, while God is all powerful, He can decide to allow actions and events to occur that are contrary to His will, simply because He chooses not to exercise His power. It is frequently referred to as His "permissive will". Being omnipotent does not necessitate the full implementation of that power.


----------



## gacowboy

Ronnie T said:


> You're on mark here and you know you are.
> Me and you don't speak this "calvinist" language and stuff.
> And the only thing "reformed" about us was done on the cross.
> 
> "It is God's desire that ALL come to repentance"
> 
> Well said, I believe the words from John 3:16 "Whosoever believes"
> means everyone has the free will to choose to accept Jesus. If this is not true then why bother to preach,have missionaries or spread the Gospel. Calvinism, Reformed or whatever they want to call it does not make sense and confuses many people. God's plan of salvation and the work of the Holy Spirit is not confusing or complicated.
> Praise the Lord for the simple Gospel !
> Three simple facts to follow from the early Church:
> 1) Pray for the Power of the Holy Spirit
> 2) Preach Jesus Christ
> 3) Love each other with unconditional Love


----------



## JB0704

gtparts said:


> The implication is that, while God is all powerful, He can decide to allow actions and events to occur that are contrary to His will, simply because He chooses not to exercise His power. It is frequently referred to as His "permissive will". Being omnipotent does not necessitate the full implementation of that power.



 I understand and appreciate your thoughts, but what troubles me is that if we decided to allow evil to happen that we knew would happen, we would be considered complicit in the action.  I think this is referred to as the "evil problem."  I don't want to change the direction of this thread.  If anybody who has thought through it would like to discuss in a new thread I am all ears because it is currently very confusing to me.


----------



## Ronnie T

Life is about serving God, or not serving God.

No one can lovingly serve who has been forced to serve.

God has all power on earth and in heaven, but God choses to be served.  And why shouldn't He!  And why wouldn't He!


----------



## mtnwoman

LovinOutside said:


> "What wakes them from the dead?"
> 
> What made Lazarus come out of the tomb when the Lord Jesus said, "Lazarus, Come Forth!"



Lazarus responded by coming out...Jesus called him and Lazarus accepted. Jesus didn't make him come out, Lazarus elected to come out at the call.  Yes, it was by the power of God that Lazarus was brought back from the dead and because the others believed then Lazarus was saved from death.  

Jesus calls us all but if we don't 'come out', then we aren't a part of the elect. The elect are the ones who elected to let Jesus in, just like we elect to take certain subjects in school...we do that, we elect our electives in school. My son in law is thinking that we don't have a choice, we are either chosen by God or we're not.  

The elect are the ones who have responded yes at the call.....and God calls everyone to be saved....if they don't elect to be saved then they are not of the elect.

My son in law was saying, does the president elect himself? That was his come back. I said no but I elected whether or not to vote for him or even whether to vote at all, I opted, made the choice, elected to. I wasn't only elected to be saved as everyone is, I've also elected to say yes, when God calls me for other things or at least I try. 

My opting, electing, choosing to be in the elect is what me part of the elect.  God knew that from the foundation of the world that I would accept, yes but it was because He knew the choice I would make, not because He put me in the elect line and chose for me.


Got anything else besides Lazarus?....my sil used Pharoah as God hardening his heart, I said give me a few more since you say elect examples are all over the Bible.


----------



## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> The implication is that, while God is all powerful, He can decide to allow actions and events to occur that are contrary to His will, simply because He chooses not to exercise His power. It is frequently referred to as His "permissive will". Being omnipotent does not necessitate the full implementation of that power.



I like that.


----------



## CAL

Remember in the Parable of the workers?Jesus gave this example.
Matt.20;16 So the last shall be first and the first last;for many be called,but few chosen.

Then in Mark when Jesus speaks of the Great Tribulation.
Mark 13:20And except that the Lord had shorten those days,no flesh should be saved:but for the elect's sake,whom he hath chosen,he hath shortened the days.


----------



## Michael F. Gray

Do not wish to start a prolonged discussion contrasting Calvinistic and Armeinian views. That being said, the elect are those who have heard the call of Almighty God. Usually through the foolishness of Preaching, but also involving the office work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man. Admittedly this is the calling, the ELECT are those whose names are written in the Book of Life after appropriately responding to the call. The final invitation in the Word of God is found in Revelation 22:17 ; "And the Spirit and the Bride say COME, and let him the heareth,[the call ofGod], say COME. And let him that is athirst  COME. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of Life FREELY."


----------



## LovinOutside

mtnwoman said:


> Lazarus responded by coming out...Jesus called him and Lazarus accepted. Jesus didn't make him come out, Lazarus elected to come out at the call.  Yes, it was by the power of God that Lazarus was brought back from the dead and because the others believed then Lazarus was saved from death.
> 
> Jesus calls us all but if we don't 'come out', then we aren't a part of the elect. The elect are the ones who elected to let Jesus in, just like we elect to take certain subjects in school...we do that, we elect our electives in school. My son in law is thinking that we don't have a choice, we are either chosen by God or we're not.
> 
> The elect are the ones who have responded yes at the call.....and God calls everyone to be saved....if they don't elect to be saved then they are not of the elect.
> 
> My son in law was saying, does the president elect himself? That was his come back. I said no but I elected whether or not to vote for him or even whether to vote at all, I opted, made the choice, elected to. I wasn't only elected to be saved as everyone is, I've also elected to say yes, when God calls me for other things or at least I try.
> 
> My opting, electing, choosing to be in the elect is what me part of the elect.  God knew that from the foundation of the world that I would accept, yes but it was because He knew the choice I would make, not because He put me in the elect line and chose for me.
> 
> 
> Got anything else besides Lazarus?....my sil used Pharoah as God hardening his heart, I said give me a few more since you say elect examples are all over the Bible.



You misunderstand about Lazarus.  What power raised him from death to life and did Lazarus have any choice about being raised from the dead?  No! You are saying God raised him from the dead but maybe Lazarus would have decided not to walk out of the tomb.

Lazarus had no choice about his resurrection.  Jesus commanded him to move from death to life and he did because Jesus Christ is God and what He says comes to be.  Lazarus had zero to do with that because he was dead and stinking.  Now do you really think this would have a occurred and Lazarus not come out of the tomb?  That is an untenable position.  Besides it would not change the fact that Lazarus was alive and the dead man had nothing to do with his own resurrection.  Nothing.

Notice this is all in the context of believing in Jesus in John 11.


Anything else?  I am only presenting small little things.  I had no desire to go into an entire system of thought.  That has been done many times over.


----------



## CAL

LovinOutside said:


> Lazarus had no choice about his resurrection.  Jesus commanded him to move from death to life and he did because Jesus Christ is God and what He says comes to be.  Lazarus had zero to do with that because he was dead and stinking.  Now do you really think this would have a occurred and Lazarus not come out of the tomb?  That is an untenable position.  Besides it would not change the fact that Lazarus was alive and the dead man had nothing to do with his own resurrection.  Nothing.
> 
> .


I agree with your thoughts.


----------



## LovinOutside

CAL said:


> I agree with your thoughts.



The point is that both sides agree with this.  The Reformation camp believes this occurs prior to belief.  They call this regeneration, born again, new creature, etc.  And that regenerated people *always* come running to Christ.  The other size semi-armenian believes it occurs after belief.  The Calvinistic side of the fence uses this particular passage to show illustrate what being dead in sin really means - dead.  What Ephesians 2 means - dead.  So, in their mind, dead people cannot do anything.  Just like Lazarus they require an outside agent (God) to do something to them first (or their not really dead.)  That is what they believe (I do also.)

Two people are in a sermon.  One believes another does not.  Why?  What is it that resides in one person and not another that caused them to believe?  Is one smarter?  Better?  Just less stubborn?  Reformation folks would say that God did not regenerate one of the two.

Most of the objections are really rooted in this perceived unfairness.  I was not raised Reformed.  I understand this.  I don't like it myself.  But God can do whatever He wants.

Also, both sides believe in free will.  The Reformed side says yes people have free will it's just that all the inclinations of their heart are evil and they never ever choose God.  In fact they are incapable of doing so.  They lack liberty.  They are free to choose what is in line with their nature - evil or relative good.  The other side believes that a person can make that decision to choose God without the need of being born again first.

For the record I know good people on both sides.  I can only say that once one embraces the Doctrines of Grace it changes the life of a church - from being man centered (free will) to God centered.  God is not subservient to the creatures will.

On a side not this is why Reformed missionaries go forth.  They KNOW that God has people there and that when the preach the Gospel someone WILL come forth to be saved because God has people of every tribe, tongue, and nation.  The non-Reformed cannot know this.

On 2 Pet. 3:9 which has been mentioned.  Reformers would say all of a certain kind in context or they would say it just means human kind and that Peter is not saying every single human being.  They would say the same about John 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:4, Matt. 23:37, and 1 Jn. 2:2 (with other arguments as well.)  It's not as if they are dodging these passages.  They are *fully* aware and hit them head on.  John 6, Rom. 9, and others are passages they use for the affirmative.

Two books:

Chosen but Free by Norman Geisler - free will side
The Potter's Freedom by James White - reformed, response to that book


----------



## Bama4me

LovinOutside said:


> On 2 Pet. 3:9 which has been mentioned.  Reformers would say all of a certain kind in context or they would say it just means human kind and that Peter is not saying every single human being.  They would say the same about John 3:16, 1 Tim. 2:4, Matt. 23:37, and 1 Jn. 2:2 (with other arguments as well.)  It's not as if they are dodging these passages.  They are *fully* aware and hit them head on.  John 6, Rom. 9, and others are passages they use for the affirmative.



Their answer to 2 Peter 3:9, John 3:16, etc. doesn't hold water IMO... either God does or doesn't want each and every person to be saved.  If the very people He created are ones that He created to send straight to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- without them having a choice, count me out of serving that kind of Deity.  And no matter how folks try to explain it, there is no reason why disciples of Christ throughout the ages have been commissioned to take the gospel to the whole world.  Jesus Himself said, "pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."  There's no need for "laborers" to go out if the "harvest" has already been determined without their involvement.


----------



## LovinOutside

Couldn't disagree more.  So that's where we'll have to leave it.  I've answered the objections already.  Some of the greatest men of God in history held to this, and I doubt it's going anywhere anytime soon.


----------



## hummerpoo

Bama4me said:


> Jesus Himself said, "pray to the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest."  There's no need for "laborers" to go out if the "harvest" has already been determined without their involvement.



Who is instructing?
Who is to pray?
Pray to whom?
Who sends?
Who's harvest?

Who's analysis?


----------



## LovinOutside

God ordains not just people but *means.*  This means He ordains preaching to be the method He uses to save people.  It is simply a mischaracterization to say otherwise about the Reformed position (if anyone thinks that).

I also gave several examples that were never answered.  Such as the Governor above.  I simply think that God doesn't owe us anything.  If He elected to save no one He is justified.  So why can't He save whom He wants?  I also gave a specific passage in John 6 and Romans 9 (did not go into specifics but mentioned them.)  In the end you can be thankful that you exercised your free will???  Good thing you made that choice, best thing YOU ever did.  That is man centered, in the final analysis.

The responses are simply "This isn't fair."  But it is indeed.  Are you seriously saying you deserve a "chance" to go to heaven?  You don't.  No one does.  It's not fair for the giver of the gift to give it to whom He wants?  I believe it is His right.  It's His grace to give out.

The one who is drawn is the one who is raised.  That's what John 6:44 says.  That's what it means to be drawn, biblically.


----------



## JB0704

LovinOutside said:


> Are you seriously saying you deserve a "chance" to go to heaven?



If the punishment for being born is going to he11 otherwise, I would say any definition of the word "just" would include a chance at heaven.  Nobody chooses to be born.



Bama4me said:


> If the very people He created are ones that He created to send straight to he11 without them having a choice, count me out of serving that kind of Deity.



X2


----------



## LovinOutside

JB0704 said:


> If the punishment for being born is going to he11 otherwise, I would say any definition of the word "just" would include a chance at heaven.  Nobody chooses to be born.
> 
> 
> 
> X2



Then I suggest that a misunderstanding of the seriousness of sin is the real problem.  God owes us nothing.  People deserve to go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----!

Again, if there is a Governor and he pardons three our of nine people on death row, is he justified in doing so?  Can't he do what he wants?  Politicians often pardon people for various things at the end of their term (and get blasted for it) but they owe the rest of penal society nothing.  The Governor is under no obligation to pardon everyone because he chose to pardon some.


----------



## LovinOutside

JB0704 said:


> If the punishment for being born is going to he11 otherwise, I would say any definition of the word "just" would include a chance at heaven.  Nobody chooses to be born.
> 
> 
> 
> X2



This presupposes they want to be saved.  I contend they do not.


----------



## JB0704

LovinOutside said:


> The Governor is under no obligation to pardon everyone because he chose to pardon some.




But the governor did not make the conditions or the rules under which the crime was committed, nor did he deliver the death sentence.  Besides, Jesus made a way for _everybody_ to be pardoned because he is more "just" than the governor.  The statement was:



> Are you seriously saying you deserve a "chance" to go to heaven?



I (and everybody else) deserve just as much a chance at it as you do, thanks goes to Jesus (John 3:17).  I wonder how many people who believe in predestination think they are not "the elect," but one of the unfortunate condemned.  I wonder if it would change a person's perspective to think so.


----------



## JB0704

LovinOutside said:


> This presupposes they want to be saved.  I contend they do not.



They do not believe, if they did, they would want to be saved.


----------



## LovinOutside

JB0704 said:


> But the governor did not make the conditions or the rules under which the crime was committed, nor did he deliver the death sentence.  Besides, Jesus made a way for _everybody_ to be pardoned because he is more "just" than the governor.  The statement was:
> 
> 
> 
> I (and everybody else) deserve just as much a chance at it as you do, thanks goes to Jesus (John 3:17).  I wonder how many people who believe in predestination think they are not "the elect," but one of the unfortunate condemned.  I wonder if it would change a person's perspective to think so.



Do you deserve a chance to go to heaven?  Does anyone deserve this chance?  No.

You are supposed to make your election sure, btw.  

What you do not realize is that believing that God is sovereign is freeing.  You are not tied down to something that you decided.  It was all of God.  It starts with God and ends with God.  The other starts with God, man is somewhere in the middle, and somehow ends with God.


----------



## LovinOutside

JB0704 said:


> They do not believe, if they did, they would want to be saved.



I do not know what this mean.  No one seeks God.  No one, ever, never ever.  They are dead!  God has to change their hearts first.  That's why "free will" doesn't work.  Men always use their free will to *not* choose God unless God regenerates them, then the come running to God, like Lazarus did from the tomb.


----------



## gordon 2

The folk that are elect are the folk that get to live in a mansion with a view at the very end of any palm branch that Jesus stepped on. 

 And from there, as if in mid air, they can see people in new heavens and to a new earth.  And as if floating above the horizons, pleasant valleys shielded by the hills of the Lord.

If they look back, they see this description of the elect;
but if they look ahead they, the elect, see that once again in the beginning God creates the heavens and the earth.

And there again in the valleys there is a tree of life, and there men and women eat from the table of the Lord, which is adorned by its many branches.


----------



## JB0704

LovinOutside said:


> I do not know what this mean.  No one seeks God.  No one, ever, never ever.  They are dead!  God has to change their hearts first.  That's why "free will" doesn't work.  Men always use their free will to *not* choose God unless God regenerates them, then the come running to God, like Lazarus did from the tomb.



You said it presupposes that they want to be saved.  I would contend that anybody who believes the gospel would want to be saved.  So those that don't aren't refusing salvation, they are denying that salvation exists as we know it.  

I think we are going to need to agree to disagree.  I cannot accept that I am a robot in a play written by a deity which may condemn me without a chance for redemption.  If God has to change my heart to accept him, then God is refusing to change the hearts of men who don't.  If this is the case, he is condemning them without a chance.  I cannot accept the implications that position has for God's character.  I see a very different God than you.  But, I do recognize that we are all welcome to believe as we wish.


----------



## pjeremy

*Pjeremy*



JB0704 said:


> You said it presupposes that they want to be saved.  I would contend that anybody who believes the gospel would want to be saved.  So those that don't aren't refusing salvation, they are denying that salvation exists as we know it.
> 
> I think we are going to need to agree to disagree.  I cannot accept that I am a robot in a play written by a deity which may condemn me without a chance for redemption.  If God has to change my heart to accept him, then God is refusing to change the hearts of men who don't.  If this is the case, he is condemning them without a chance.  I cannot accept the implications that position has for God's character.  I see a very different God than you.  But, I do recognize that we are all welcome to believe as we wish.



Very well put.


----------



## gtparts

LovinOutside said:


> Do you deserve a chance to go to heaven?  Does anyone deserve this chance?  No.
> 
> You are supposed to make your election sure, btw.
> 
> What you do not realize is that believing that God is sovereign is freeing.  You are not tied down to something that you decided.  It was all of God.  It starts with God and ends with God.  The other starts with God, man is somewhere in the middle, and somehow ends with God.



I don't see that what we deserve is even relevant to this thread. Salvation is based on God offering salvation by the sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection of His Son, Jesus. If salvation is based on a personal relationship (One-on one), does it really make sense for the calling to be for the benefit of a group (the preselected elect) rather than also a One-on-one basis? Particularly in light of God's own word "that it is not His will that any should perish"? 

Could you ever conclude (based on Scripture) that God, on the one hand, forces some to respond positively to the Gospel because they are preselected? Or that God forces some to reject Him? If that is true, the Gospel then becomes the false hope of anyone that God has not preselected. The presentation of the Gospel becomes something like Lucy VanPelt snatching the football away after offering to hold the football. The offer of the Gospel becomes some cruel joke for those folks. I always understood that when the Gospel is presented, it is a genuine bona fide offer, the free gift of God. If there is no possibility of redemption, we are in fact lying to some to whom we witness. Or are we to add the caveat, "Unless, of course, you happen to be one not elected, then, hey, what can I say but tough break. Yep, Jesus loves you, gave His life, died and rose for you, but I nor you can be real sure about our personal salvation because we may not be preselected."


At what point does God allow us any choice?
Based on Scripture, it would appear that regeneration is intimately tied to a personal decision to submit to the lordship of Christ, rather than two separate, distinct events in time. Perhaps, neither precedes the other, but happen simultaneously.


The "elect" mentioned in Scripture are certainly members of a group based on that singular trait, but they are "elected" individually. That is, their salvation is secure on an individual basis. And deciding to follow Christ is most certainly an individual choice.  

I am not sure that Lazarus is a good example. He was raised physically to show the power and glory of God, only to die again, later. Salvation is spiritual in nature, involving resurrection to eternal life in a new, incorruptible, heavenly body. The differences are rather profound.


----------



## LovinOutside

gtparts said:


> I don't see that what we deserve is even relevant to this thread. Salvation is based on God offering salvation by the sacrificial death and subsequent resurrection of His Son, Jesus. If salvation is based on a personal relationship (One-on one), does it really make sense for the calling to be for the benefit of a group (the preselected elect) rather than also a One-on-one basis? Particularly in light of God's own word "that it is not His will that any should perish"?
> 
> Could you ever conclude (based on Scripture) that God, on the one hand, forces some to respond positively to the Gospel because they are preselected? Or that God forces some to reject Him? If that is true, the Gospel then becomes the false hope of anyone that God has not preselected. The presentation of the Gospel becomes something like Lucy VanPelt snatching the football away after offering to hold the football. The offer of the Gospel becomes some cruel joke for those folks. I always understood that when the Gospel is presented, it is a genuine bona fide offer, the free gift of God. If there is no possibility of redemption, we are in fact lying to some to whom we witness. Or are we to add the caveat, "Unless, of course, you happen to be one not elected, then, hey, what can I say but tough break. Yep, Jesus loves you, gave His life, died and rose for you, but I nor you can be real sure about our personal salvation because we may not be preselected."
> 
> 
> At what point does God allow us any choice?
> Based on Scripture, it would appear that regeneration is intimately tied to a personal decision to submit to the lordship of Christ, rather than two separate, distinct events in time. Perhaps, neither precedes the other, but happen simultaneously.
> 
> 
> The "elect" mentioned in Scripture are certainly members of a group based on that singular trait, but they are "elected" individually. That is, their salvation is secure on an individual basis. And deciding to follow Christ is most certainly an individual choice.
> 
> I am not sure that Lazarus is a good example. He was raised physically to show the power and glory of God, only to die again, later. Salvation is spiritual in nature, involving resurrection to eternal life in a new, incorruptible, heavenly body. The differences are rather profound.




First, I disagree with your interpretation of the verse you are alluding to.  Second, the argument about deserving does indeed matter because the argument is based on "fairness" against the Reformed position.  So my question about us deserving ANYTHING is totally relevant.  I could have just as easily used the word "fair."

Do you believe it is "fair" for us to be offered anything at all for salvation?  Why can't God do what He wants?

The word "forces" is also strange.  The Reformed position is not one where God is dragging someone to heaven that doesn't want to be there while keeping out others that do.  That's not it at all.  In fact, NO ONE wants to seek God.  Something I've said over and over.  NO ONE seeks God.

When you say that someone chooses God you are saying they are seeking God.  I am saying that unless God causes someone to be born again, they will not seek God and choose to exercise faith in Him.  You are saying the opposite, that there is some bit of the person, untouched by the fall, that still has the ability to choose and seek God. 

I have also offered up two passages.  John 6 and Romans 9.  John 6 clearly states people are *unable* to come to Jesus unless the Father draws them and that whoever is drawn is raised.  All of the drawn are raise, not just some, all of them.  And in this context, all of them really means all .

The order of salvation or ordo salutis is:

1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30) 

taken from http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/

You see I believe in the total depravity of man.  You really have to understand how depraved man is.  It's not that he is as evil as he can be just that there is no untouched part of his nature that isn't affected by sin - this includes the will.  People never chooses God.  You are saying they do.

If you are a Christian, what makes you better than the guy that didn't choose God?  You may say nothing but in the final analysis there something in you better than the other guy.  You chose.  You did it.  You rose above your depravity, the affects of the fall and chose.  Maybe you were smarter, just little less stubborn, who knows.  But, in all here, it is Y-O-U.

The Reformed position is simple.  Man is totally depraved and cannot seek God.  God changes the heart.  The person comes to God and believes and is saved.

Your caveat misses the point.  You do not preach like that because you do not know who the elect are.  You simply preach that Christ died for sinners.  Those who are elect respond.  The other's do not.

I also believe you do not pray like you are saying.  When you want a loved one saved, don't you want God to actually do something?  I do.  I pray He will change their heart, because, again, God ordains *means,* (preaching, teaching, etc.) and NOT just people.  He ordains the Gospel to be that tool that wakes the dead.

You also are just as folly because you (I am guessing) believe that God already knows who will believe, so why not just preach to them?  Why some big group where you don't know?  Why doen't God just assemble the ones that will believe and keep you from wasting your time?  After all, God knows that no matter what these folks won't believe.  No matter what.  You just can't convince them.  Not even God can convince them.  But somehow because they heard it, God's in the clear.  Why not just make people that believe and forget about the whole worrisome unbelievers?  You are in the same boat.

Lastly, John 11 is about believing in Christ.  Second, it's analogy.  Jesus says He is the resurrection and the life and whoever believes is saved....and raises the dead to prove it.  I'm saying that's the kind of power it takes for someone to believe the Gospel.  It's not wooing, or enticing, or something else.  It's God almighty changing what only He can change - the heart of man.  HE takes out the heart of stone and gives them the heart of flesh (Ezek. 36:26).

God is not bound by the creatures will.  God doesn't look down through time to see who will do what.  He knows because he decrees.

Besides, let's say you're right.  Why can't God woo and entice everyone to be saved?  Why can't He just convince everyone?  I'm aware of the verses about "they would not," I'm asking why not.  Why could he convince you but not someone else?  I do not have to worry about convincing.  I can simply say that God elects and transforms.  Of course they would not.  They cannot come to God unless He enables them to.  No more grumbling.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Michael F. Gray said:


> Do not wish to start a prolonged discussion contrasting Calvinistic and Armeinian views. That being said, the elect are those who have heard the call of Almighty God. Usually through the foolishness of Preaching, but also involving the office work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of man. Admittedly this is the calling, the ELECT are those whose names are written in the Book of Life after appropriately responding to the call. The final invitation in the Word of God is found in Revelation 22:17 ; "And the Spirit and the Bride say COME, and let him the heareth,[the call ofGod], say COME. And let him that is athirst  COME. And WHOSOEVER WILL, let him take the water of Life FREELY."



Short and to the point! Thanks!

Too many folks out there trying to figure out God.  What we ought to be about is living for Jesus, serving Him, loving God and our fellow man, and giving Jesus to others through the pouring out of our lives.  Nothing else really matters. 

After all,  the mystery is already known, if in fact you know him.

Colossians 1:24-27
24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.


----------



## LovinOutside

formula1 said:


> Short and to the point! Thanks!
> 
> Too many folks out there trying to figure out God.  What we ought to be about is living for Jesus, serving Him, loving God and our fellow man, and giving Jesus to others through the pouring out of our lives.  Nothing else really matters.
> 
> After all,  the mystery is already known, if in fact you know him.
> 
> Colossians 1:24-27
> 24 Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I am filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of his body, that is, the church, 25 of which I became a minister according to the stewardship from God that was given to me for you, to make the word of God fully known, 26 the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now revealed to his saints. 27 To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.



I understand and agree but these matters are not merely academic.  What you believe about them changes the life of the church.  That's why you don't find things like altar calls and arm twisting and "God's telling me to give one more verse of Just as I am."  And, yes, I've been blessed at an altar call though I do not believe in them anymore.

The church, Gospel, salvation, everything becomes about something God does through and through.  Believing what someone does about free will matters - a lot.

Typically people do no understand that and blow off these issues but it does matter and it changes everything.  It changes how you witness to people, it changes how you pray, and it changes how you worship.

I apologize in advance for offending someone about the altar calls.  I really came here to talk about fishing and hunting .


----------



## Ronnie T

Cornelius was a man who met God through the other men of God in his adopted home-town.
Cornelius began searching for God.....    "“Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God."

And Peter was sent by God to Cornelius' home:

34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: 
   “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.


----------



## LovinOutside

Ronnie T said:


> Cornelius was a man who met God through the other men of God in his adopted home-town.
> Cornelius began searching for God.....    "“Your prayers and alms have ascended as a memorial before God."
> 
> And Peter was sent by God to Cornelius' home:
> 
> 34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
> “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.




Because God was drawing him.  He would never have done so on his own.  It is *impossible.*


----------



## Crubear

Many years ago I had a similar struggle with predestination. Just another way of phrasing what you're asking (IMO).

I finally resolved it for myself by asking the following questions.
1) Is God a loving god, or not?
2) If He's a loving god, then how could he condem the majority of his creation to fire and brimstone by His choice?
3) If He's already chosen who's going to Heaven and who's not, then why did He need to send Jesus?

He is a loving god who wants everyone to come to Him, and He sent Jesus so everyone could. God is there at the begining of time, and He's there at the end - so He knows what I've done with my whole life. I think of salvation as His way of changing how I come out.


----------



## LovinOutside

Crubear said:


> Many years ago I had a similar struggle with predestination. Just another way of phrasing what you're asking (IMO).
> 
> I finally resolved it for myself by asking the following quesitons.
> 1) Is God a loving god, or not?
> 2) If He's a loving god, then how could he condem the majority of his creation to fire and brimstone by His choice?
> 3) If He's already chosen who's going to Heaven and who's not, then why did He need to send Jesus?
> 
> He is a loving god who wants everyone to come to Him, and He sent Jesus so everyone could. God is there at the begining of time, and He's there at the end - so He knows what I've done with my whole life. I think of salvation as His way of changing how I come out.



1.  Yes.

2.  Because they deserve it.  He is infinitely just as well as infinitely loving.  People that go to *ell are sinners and deserve it.  It is a miracle that anyone is saved.  We are again appealing to this notion of how could a loving God send someone to *ell.  Because sin must be punished.  If God saved no one He would be justified in punishing everyone in *ell.  He is just and loving and under no obligation to save anyone.

3.  How is this related to election?  The people Jesus died for still need forgiveness and the imputed rightesouness of Christ.  Simply because God elected them doesn't mean they don't need Jesus sacrifice.  In fact the opposite is true.  Jesus came for His people and He secures their salvation by what he did, perfect life, death, and resurrection.  When He died something was actually and finally purchased.  It wasn't a maybe.  It was a fact.  He intercedes for those whom He secured.


----------



## Ronnie T

LovinOutside said:


> Because God was drawing him.  He would never have done so on his own.  It is *impossible.*



Your view on this lacks critical biblical foundation.
To believe as you believe on this subject, I'd first have to be indoctrinated into the way someone else looked at it.
I'll just take it as given.


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## Crubear

Lovin, I guess where you and I differ is in how we feel things are done.

1) I do believe God is The Loving God.

2) I don't believe He chooses who goes where. I do believe He lets us choose and then sends us where we've decided to spend eternity. As I teach my kids, choices have repercussions.

3) Jesus died so that everyone can choose God; no limits and no restrictions on who that is. 

I guess I choose to interpret those who are God's elect as people who've elected to choose God.


----------



## LovinOutside

Ronnie T said:


> Your view on this lacks critical biblical foundation.
> To believe as you believe on this subject, I'd first have to be indoctrinated into the way someone else looked at it.
> I'll just take it as given.



Romans 3 says people do not seek God.


----------



## LovinOutside

Crubear said:


> Lovin, I guess where you and I differ is in how we feel things are done.
> 
> 1) I do believe God is The Loving God.
> 
> 2) I don't believe He chooses who goes where. I do believe He lets us choose and then sends us where we've decided to spend eternity. As I teach my kids, choices have repercussions.
> 
> 3) Jesus died so that everyone can choose God; no limits and no restrictions on who that is.
> 
> I guess I choose to interpret those who are God's elect as people who've elected to choose God.



1.  We agree.

2.  I agree.  Again, I do not believe people do not have free will per se.  They do.  I simply believe their heart is so damaged by sin that they are incapable of choosing God.  They always, freely, choose, not God.  They do not seek God.  They are incapable of coming to Christ.  They are spiritually dead.  Their inclinations are never towards God.

3.  Jesus died for sinners.  Jesus intercedes for those whom He died for and He does not interceded for every single person alive.

Romans 3 is clear.  No one elects to choose God.  Only when God changes their hearts (being born again) do they change and come running (always) to God.  Regeneration and being born again precedes faith not after it.


----------



## Ronnie T

LovinOutside said:


> Romans 3 says people do not seek God.



???????


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## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Your view on this lacks critical biblical foundation.
> To believe as you believe on this subject, I'd first have to be indoctrinated into the way someone else looked at it.
> I'll just take it as given.



I found what I now know as the Reformed view in scripture.  I never heard of such a thing.  The church I was raised in certainly never taught it and the one I was attending hates it.  I was shocked one day when I was listening to the radio and heard R.C. Sproul laying out a system of belief that I thought I was the only one in the world believed.

I was so shocked I had to pull off the road.


----------



## Jeffriesw

hummerpoo said:


> I found what I now know as the Reformed view in scripture.  I never heard of such a thing.  The church I was raised in certainly never taught it and the one I was attending hates it.  I was shocked one day when I was listening to the radio and heard R.C. Sproul laying out a system of belief that I thought I was the only one in the world believed.
> 
> I was so shocked I had to pull off the road.




X's 2


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## LovinOutside

Ronnie T said:


> ???????



What?  Romans 3:11:  

no one understands;
   no one seeks for God.


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## LovinOutside

Swamp Runner said:


> X's 2



I too found RC.  He is respected by Reformed and non-Reformed.  We all need to remember that.

Also, go to Savannah.  Whitefield and Wesley, together.  Great men.  Reformed and non-Reformed.

Reformed do get to claim Charles Spurgeon though .


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## hummerpoo

I once heard a fellow say that once he found the soverignty of God in the Bible it was on every page.  I think he was exagerating, half the pages is probably closer.

Some may have seen a statement I made on another thread about Reformed Theology being taught by prominent men today and not being heard.  If anyone is interested they might google up a transcript of a conversation between John Piper and Rick Warren that took place this past spring and give it a careful read.


----------



## mtnwoman

LovinOutside said:


> What?  Romans 3:11:
> 
> no one understands;
> no one seeks for God.



Somebody seeks God, or a god....look at all the ancient alters made to gods that we don't believe in.
How did the world come up with so many religions and so many 'idols' without someone seeking God?

God's will is for everyone to be saved. Some elect Him as their God and some people don't. When we do we become part of the elect. Opposite but sort of like hitler, binladen, etc etc is part of the antichrist. You are either of the elect or part of the antichrist, we get to choose.

Like someone else said, otherwise who woulda needed the cross? We didn't need Jesus to save us we were already saved/elected/chosen?


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> You said it presupposes that they want to be saved.  I would contend that anybody who believes the gospel would want to be saved.  So those that don't aren't refusing salvation, they are denying that salvation exists as we know it.
> 
> I think we are going to need to agree to disagree.  I cannot accept that I am a robot in a play written by a deity which may condemn me without a chance for redemption.  If God has to change my heart to accept him, then God is refusing to change the hearts of men who don't.  If this is the case, he is condemning them without a chance.  I cannot accept the implications that position has for God's character.  I see a very different God than you.  But, I do recognize that we are all welcome to believe as we wish.



Well put x2


----------



## Bama4me

LovinOutside said:


> I do not know what this mean.  No one seeks God.  No one, ever, never ever.  They are dead!  God has to change their hearts first.  That's why "free will" doesn't work.  Men always use their free will to *not* choose God unless God regenerates them, then the come running to God, like Lazarus did from the tomb.



Would like some scripture to prove this idea.  You are merging unconditional election with total hereditary depravity... and THD is clearly taught against in both the Old and New Testaments.  Sin... not birth is what condemns a person (Romans 6:23).


----------



## Bama4me

LovinOutside said:


> Couldn't disagree more.  So that's where we'll have to leave it.  I've answered the objections already.  *Some of the greatest men of God in history held to this, and I doubt it's going anywhere anytime soon*.



One... I don't follow people because history holds them as being "great."  Two... to be called a man of God, a man needs to accurately represent what Scripture says.  I know a lot of "great men"... but just because someone carries a Bible, delivers a message, and has a large numerical following does not mean they are "great men of God."  2 John 9-11 implies somone considered "great" carries with them the doctrine of our Lord... which many religious people today do not espouse.


----------



## LovinOutside

Bama4me said:


> Would like some scripture to prove this idea.  You are merging unconditional election with total hereditary depravity... and THD is clearly taught against in both the Old and New Testaments.  Sin... not birth is what condemns a person (Romans 6:23).



Scripture for what idea?  Romans 3:11 "no one seeks for God."  Also see the rest of Romans 3.  Not a pretty picture.

You really don't believe we all are affected by the fall and have fallen natures?  Ephes. 2 clearly states we were "by nature children of wrath."  Never even heard of THD.  I'm not saying your DNA is somehow a transmitter.  Though it is fallen in the sense all of creation is (and moaning.)  You nature is not physical.  It's the "you" of you.  We are fallen creatures.  I am anyway.  You were born a sinner.  You sin because you are a sinner.  You are not a sinner because you sinned one time.  It's your nature to do evil.  Only the light of Jesus Gospel can open and change the heart and THANK GOD I wasn't dependent on some innate decision making process without God's enabling.  I'd be going to a devil's *ell.


----------



## LovinOutside

Bama4me said:


> One... I don't follow people because history holds them as being "great."  Two... to be called a man of God, a man needs to accurately represent what Scripture says.  I know a lot of "great men"... but just because someone carries a Bible, delivers a message, and has a large numerical following does not mean they are "great men of God."  2 John 9-11 implies somone considered "great" carries with them the doctrine of our Lord... which many religious people today do not espouse.



I'll stick with Charles Spurgeon.  A great servant of God.  John Piper is a modern good one.  Albert Mohler president of a SBC school.  Many more.  This is not some johnny come lately doctrine.  The church has believed it for a long time...I'd say since Paul. .

On a side note, there are many things, more important things we agree upon, I hope:

God is the creator.
God is Triune.
Jesus is God the Son, Second Person of Trinity.
The Holy Spirit, is Personal, and He is the Third Peson of the Trinity, worshipped and glorified along with the Father and the Son.
Salvation By Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, in Christ Alone.  The Gospel.
The Bible is the only Scripture as contained in the Old and New Testaments
Physical, bodily resurrection from the dead.  Jesus real, resurrection.
Jesus is returning one day.

He has personally changed me.  I am a new creature.  A new creation.  Born again.

We probably hold more in common than not.  I want to go squirrel hunting.


----------



## Ronnie T

LovinOutside said:


> What?  Romans 3:11:
> 
> no one understands;
> no one seeks for God.




So Cornelius did NOT seek God?
Then what did Cornelius do?

Did Paul seek God?  Before and after he met Jesus?
In Acts 2 after those souls heard the Gospel call from Peter, did those people seek God?

After Paul told Lydia about Jesus Christ, did Lydia seek God?


----------



## Ronnie T

LovinOutside said:


> Because God was drawing him.  He would never have done so on his own.  It is *impossible.*



But as soon as Cornelius heard the Gospel, Cornelius had heard the Gospel 'call'.
He either accepted it or did not.

Faith comes from hearing.


----------



## Ronnie T

2 Peter 1:10 (NKJV)
10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;


----------



## centerpin fan

LovinOutside said:


> This is not some johnny come lately doctrine.  The church has believed it for a long time...I'd say since Paul. .



I'm not so sure about that.  The eastern church has never believed it.  The concept is very much a western one.  I would say the genesis of Reformed theology was Augustine.  The Reformers took his ideas and ran with them.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> 2 Peter 1:10 (NKJV)
> 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;


 
you tellin' me i'd better make sure? well if it's already planned, well then, why tell me to make sure? I elect to make sure....nothing other than Jesus dying for me on the cross for my sins could ever make me choose the God of Abraham as my God...He offered up an offering for my sins, Jesus Christ, and I accepted/elected to choose the gospel....He ask me to be His bride and I said yes...a few times before, I said no and ran far away into darkness, and He let me go.

Now I believe God will bring you to your knees when He's ready to fetch His lost lamb....He'll let the debil just terrorize the heck out of ya until you fall to your knees and say help me Lord. 

Sorry I'm sleepless and sleep deprived and delirious. We had one kid in the hood 3yrs old slam and busted a sliding glass door, an ambulance came and took her. She's ok, just sliced up a little. Then my next door neighors 1 month old grand son died of sids. They woke up and he was dead in his crib, the entire hood is flippin'. I just need to stay up a little longer and fix food etc. Oh the baby lived on the other side of me and the aunt and uncle across the street....whew Lordy.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not so sure about that.  The eastern church has never believed it.  The concept is very much a western one.  I would say the genesis of Reformed theology was Augustine.  The Reformers took his ideas and ran with them.




Not necessarily towards you Mr Fan
Why would someone reform the original word? I think that's a problem I've had for a long time.  I'm sure it wasn't impossible to translate Aramaic, Greek, Hebrew etc, into English.

The folks that paul was talking about were people that were already saved....so he said 'we the elect', just like I'd say we Christians meaning us'ns. He wasn't preaching to a large crowd of the unelect/ the unchosen. He was talking to his peeps, his sunday school teachers, his preachers, folks that had already elected to accept Christ, ready for the mission field.

Somebody needs to show me any scripture which directly states that God's will is not for everyone to be saved....it boils down to that scripture. 
We are all His children how could He pick and choose? He gave His son for atonement of sin, you can either believe that or not. I too wouldn't want to serve a God who chose for my sister or brother, or friend to not be of the elect.


----------



## LovinOutside

Ronnie T said:


> So Cornelius did NOT seek God?
> Then what did Cornelius do?
> 
> Did Paul seek God?  Before and after he met Jesus?
> In Acts 2 after those souls heard the Gospel call from Peter, did those people seek God?
> 
> After Paul told Lydia about Jesus Christ, did Lydia seek God?



Then please interpret Romans 3:11.  What does it and Romans 3 mean?


----------



## gtparts

LovinOutside said:


> First, I disagree with your interpretation of the verse you are alluding to.  Second, the argument about deserving does indeed matter because the argument is based on "fairness" against the Reformed position.  So my question about us deserving ANYTHING is totally relevant.  I could have just as easily used the word "fair."
> 
> Fair??? I didn't say "fair" or "unfair. That is not my argument and it sure isn't yours. Some try to use it to justify their position, but that shows an almost complete lack of understanding concerning Scripture and the character of God as revealed in the Bible and by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Do you believe it is "fair" for us to be offered anything at all for salvation?  Why can't God do what He wants?
> 
> The sovereign LORD most certainly can do as He wants... and no one can contend with it and stand. I am just utterly convinced that what He said about desiring all to be saved is central to the heart and character of God and is an expression of His love for all He has created.
> 
> The word "forces" is also strange.  The Reformed position is not one where God is dragging someone to heaven that doesn't want to be there while keeping out others that do.  That's not it at all.  In fact, NO ONE wants to seek God.  Something I've said over and over.  NO ONE seeks God
> 
> .....until they are convicted by the Holy Spirit and called of God. At that point, you maintain they will not refuse. The rich (and foolish) young ruler showed signs of conviction, desiring to do what was right. He knew that he was still lacking the peace that salvation brings. His problem was he prized (trusted in) his wealth for his earthly security more than he trusted God for all his security. I read "walking away sad" as rejecting the Word incarnate. Refusal!
> 
> When you say that someone chooses God you are saying they are seeking God.  I am saying that unless God causes someone to be born again, they will not seek God and choose to exercise faith in Him.  You are saying the opposite, that there is some bit of the person, untouched by the fall, that still has the ability to choose and seek God.
> 
> On the contrary! I believe that sin creates a God "shaped hole" in every ones spirit and that man will do almost anything to fill it, with things or with self, typically. It is an emptiness only Jesus can satisfy, but many will settle for far less.
> 
> I have also offered up two passages.  John 6 and Romans 9.  John 6 clearly states people are *unable* to come to Jesus unless the Father draws them and that whoever is drawn is raised.  All of the drawn are raise, not just some, all of them.  And in this context, all of them really means all .
> 
> The order of salvation or ordo salutis is:
> 
> 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)
> 
> taken from http://www.monergism.com/directory/link_category/Ordo-Salutis/
> 
> You see I believe in the total depravity of man.  You really have to understand how depraved man is.  It's not that he is as evil as he can be just that there is no untouched part of his nature that isn't affected by sin - this includes the will.  People never chooses God.  You are saying they do.
> 
> God's love is extended to all men, whether totally depraved or not.
> 
> If you are a Christian, what makes you better than the guy that didn't choose God?
> 
> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> You may say nothing but in the final analysis there something in you better than the other guy.
> 
> Only in the sense that the Holy Spirit dwells in me. That gives me no reason to boast or be prideful. It is what God alone has done.
> 
> You chose.  You did it.
> 
> Sure did.... as a response to the work that God did in me.
> 
> You rose above your depravity, the affects of the fall and chose.  Maybe you were smarter, just little less stubborn, who knows.  But, in all here, it is Y-O-U.
> 
> Nope, He lifted me.
> 
> The Reformed position is simple.  Man is totally depraved and cannot seek God.  God changes the heart.  The person comes to God and believes and is saved.
> 
> Your caveat misses the point.  You do not preach like that because you do not know who the elect are.  You simply preach that Christ died for sinners.  Those who are elect respond.  The other's do not.
> 
> But, you believe it, yet you don't inform the person you are attempting to proselytize that there is the possibility they are not of the elect. Why would you omit telling them? Seems you are leaving out a key piece of information they just might want to know.... something like "Before we continue the discussion, this may be a colossal waste of time because God's love is not really extended toward everyone.... just the elect."
> 
> I also believe you do not pray like you are saying.  When you want a loved one saved, don't you want God to actually do something?  I do.  I pray He will change their heart, because, again, God ordains *means,* (preaching, teaching, etc.) and NOT just people.  He ordains the Gospel to be that tool that wakes the dead.
> 
> You also are just as folly because you (I am guessing) believe that God already knows who will believe, so why not just preach to them?  Why some big group where you don't know?  Why doen't God just assemble the ones that will believe and keep you from wasting your time?  After all, God knows that no matter what these folks won't believe.  No matter what.  You just can't convince them.  Not even God can convince them.  But somehow because they heard it, God's in the clear.  Why not just make people that believe and forget about the whole worrisome unbelievers?  You are in the same boat.
> 
> Lastly, John 11 is about believing in Christ.  Second, it's analogy.  Jesus says He is the resurrection and the life and whoever believes is saved....and raises the dead to prove it.  I'm saying that's the kind of power it takes for someone to believe the Gospel.  It's not wooing, or enticing, or something else.  It's God almighty changing what only He can change - the heart of man.  HE takes out the heart of stone and gives them the heart of flesh (Ezek.
> 36:26).
> 
> Actually, it is metaphorical, not analogous. Jesus IS the resurrection and (IS) the life,...    He is not LIKE them. But, you are right. The power to effect that change, the power to save is His. I'm with you on that.
> 
> God is not bound by the creatures will.  God doesn't look down through time to see who will do what.  He knows because he decrees.
> 
> Besides, let's say you're right.  Why can't God woo and entice everyone to be saved?  Why can't He just convince everyone?  I'm aware of the verses about "they would not," I'm asking why not.  Why could he convince you but not someone else?  I do not have to worry about convincing.  I can simply say that God elects and transforms.  Of course they would not.  They cannot come to God unless He enables them to.  No more grumbling.



Why not? I believe it is simply because their hearts have been hardened from repeated rebellious acts against God, the horrible consequence of dwelling in sin. God speaks of "turning them over to their depravity". I believe that "act of God" happens in the context of the individual. God is not playing games. Like sheep, God searches out the one.   

Since you choose not to look at this from a neutral position, explain to me how two people, unknown to each other,  are saved, who attend the same Reformed church, but one is saved on the 15th of the month and the other is saved on the 29th. If both are of the elected (and we must assume they are, as they both give there heart to Christ, submitting themselves to Him), why is their a two week separation? If the person saved on the 29th was elected, why did he not respond on the 15th, being of the elect?  
Your words: 





> You simply preach that Christ died for sinners.  Those who are elect respond.  The other's do not.



Could it be that all are elect initially (that is, God's desires to save every lost sheep) , but those who die in a state of "lostness", unrepentant  and not in submission to Jesus as Lord and Savior, have their election revoked (and then, the judgment)? Kind of like Jesus bought tickets for everyone and left them at Will Call, and you and I have told folks how to get their free ticket, only they never pick them up and miss The Greatest Show in Heaven.

Here are several things that come to mind.

The foolish bridesmaids who did not prepare for the wedding party by bringing oil for their lamps. Invited to the ceremony and party, but left out.

The Pharisees who tithed their herbs, but neglected the weightier matters, yet thought they were justified by what they had done and by their ancestry.  

In the final analysis, if God only saves those that He has preselected (if election is limited to only some),then for some salvation is not an option. There is no path they may choose, no remote hope of spending eternity with the Creator. They are condemned before they draw their first breath and life is meaningless, waiting only for the final judgment.    
Now, while the sovereign God has all power and authority to do things any way He chooses, the nature of the one you describe is not the Jesus I know and serve.

Did the Holy Spirit work in the heart of the prodigal, bringing conviction that resulted in repentance? Would God not work that way in the lives of all His children? And what of the woman who emptied and cleaned her house to find a lost coin? Or the shepherd whose sheep wandered off? 

No, it is not a matter of "fair" as men see it. It is a matter of who God has revealed Himself to be.


----------



## LovinOutside

All I need to know is what Romans 3:11 means when talking about lost people.   What does it mean?


----------



## Bama4me

LovinOutside said:


> Scripture for what idea?  Romans 3:11 "no one seeks for God."  Also see the rest of Romans 3.  Not a pretty picture.
> 
> You really don't believe we all are affected by the fall and have fallen natures?  Ephes. 2 clearly states we were "by nature children of wrath."  Never even heard of THD.  I'm not saying your DNA is somehow a transmitter.  Though it is fallen in the sense all of creation is (and moaning.)  You nature is not physical.  It's the "you" of you.  We are fallen creatures.  I am anyway.  You were born a sinner.  You sin because you are a sinner.  You are not a sinner because you sinned one time.  It's your nature to do evil.  Only the light of Jesus Gospel can open and change the heart and THANK GOD I wasn't dependent on some innate decision making process without God's enabling.  I'd be going to a devil's *ell.



You aren't correctly viewing Romans 3:11.  It's quoting Isaiah 52:11... where Isaiah was describing the state of Judah at the time of writing.  It's not "they can't seek God"... it's "they are not seeking Him."

I was NOT born a sinner.  If you will go back and read Ezekiel 18:4-29, Scripture portrays three men... a grandfather, a father, and a son/grandson.  The passage describes both the grandfather and grandson as one who fears God... while the father is an evil person.  Verses 19-20 claims the grandson would not suffer because of the iniquity of the father... and that the soul who sins will suffer death.  Notice... the soul who sins suffers death.

IF man is depraved when he is born (the idea you are representing), please explain why Jesus claimed that we should be like children in Luke 18:15-17... and also why Jesus said "to such belongs the kingdom of God."  If we are born unable to do any good thing (depraved), why did Jesus commend them for goodness?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.

It can be easily explained by looking in context at the passage from which it comes.

Psalm 14
1 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God."
  They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds,
  there is none who does good.
2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the children of man,
  to see if there are any who understand,
  who seek after God.
3 They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt;
  there is none who does good,
  not even one.

Verse 1 - The fool, the unbeliever denies the existance of God, by what? By what he is doing! His actions!

Verse 2 - The Lord is looking onto the children of may for one who seeks after Him. Who pursues Him. Does this say God does not want seekers?

Verse 3 - But they are corrupt, by their action they are not good and they cannot be, not even one. 

This hints to the coming redemptive power of the cross, in God's knowing, He must create a way of escape from our depravity. This is where we need to read two passages in Isaiah for clarity.

Isaiah 64:6
But we are all like an unclean thing,And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away.

Isaiah 61:1 
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me, because the LORD has anointed me to bring good news to the poor; he has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound.

We are all captive by our sin, and Jesus came to free us, to proclaim liberty for all of the captives.

The conclusion of Romans 3:11 is Romans 3:21-22:
21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— 
22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe.

"All who believe", could not be any clearer, IMHO!

And why seek God? Because He wants us to! There is overwhelming scriptural evidence fot it and here is some of it.

Psalm 9:10
And those who know your name put their trust in you,for you, O LORD, have not forsaken those who seek you.
Psalm 27:8
You have said, "Seek my face."My heart says to you,"Your face, LORD, do I seek."
Psalm 34:10
The young lions suffer want and hunger;but those who seek the LORD lack no good thing.
Psalm 105:4
Seek the LORD and his strength; seek his presence continually!
Psalm 119:2
Blessed are those who keep his testimonies,who seek him with their whole heart
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me,and those who seek me diligently find me.
Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice,but those who seek the LORD understand it completely.
Isaiah 55:6
"Seek the LORD while he may be found;call upon him while he is near;
Jeremiah 29:13
You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with all your heart.
Ezekiel 34:11
"For thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I, I myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out.
Ezekiel 34:16
I will seek the lost, and I will bring back the strayed, and I will bind up the injured, and I will strengthen the weak, and the fat and the strong I will destroy. I will feed them in justice.
Hosea 10:12
Sow for yourselves righteousness;reap steadfast love; break up your fallow ground,for it is the time to seek the LORD,that he may come and rain righteousness upon you.
Amos 5:4
For thus says the LORD to the house of Israel: "Seek me and live;
Zephaniah 2:3
Seek the LORD, all you humble of the land,who do his just commands; seek righteousness; seek humility; perhaps you may be hidden on the day of the anger of the LORD.
Matthew 6:33
But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Matthew 7:7
"Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 11:9
And I tell you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
Luke 12:29-31
29 And do not seek what you are to eat and what you are to drink, nor be worried. 30 For all the nations of the world seek after these things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 Instead, seek his kingdom, and these things will be added to you.
Luke 15
8 Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and seek diligently until she finds it? 9 And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin that I had lost.' 10 Just so, I tell you, there is joy before the angels of God over one sinner who repents.
Acts 17
24 The God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, 25 nor is he served by human hands, as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. 26 And he made 
from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, 27 that they should seek God, in the hope that they might feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us
Colossians 3:1
If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
Hebrews 13:14
For here we have no lasting city, but we seek the city that is to come.

Scripture teaches, I just hope we hear!  God Bless!


----------



## LovinOutside

Romans 3 is describing all of mankind.  All are under the power of sin.  Paul then describes what this means.  You're interpretation is novel and against most everything either side of this debate would say.  If you don't think Romans 3 is describing all people and their condition.  I do not know what to tell you.

Do not or cannot is not relevant.  The don't.  So either way.  They don't do it.  What does it matter?  They never ever seek God.

You also should read Psalm 51:5.

Jesus is not talking about sinful natures.  I never said you could do no good thing at all.  I said you never ever choose God.  And in some sense you cannot choose a "full" good only a relative good.  I'll leave it to you to research that.  I did not orginate the concept.

Romans 3 is all about the true nature of mankind. You are born with a sinful nature.  If you wish to believe you are born good....ok.


----------



## LovinOutside

formula1 said:


> Romans 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
> 
> It can be easily explained by looking in context at the passage from which it comes.
> ...
> Scripture teaches, I just hope we hear!  God Bless!



Please in context then.  Tell me what Romans 3:11 means.  Romans 3 is all about the state of man.  That's the context.


----------



## formula1

LovinOutside said:


> Please in context then.  Tell me what Romans 3:11 means.  Romans 3 is all about the state of man.  That's the context.



I did. Mankind is evil and Jesus came to redeem the lost!

"All who believe", 'All who believe', 'All who believe'! Romans 3:21-22

I gave you 23 scriptures about seeking God, many of which proclaim 'If you seek ME(God), you will find me!'

I don't know what else to say when you deny the very scriptures you supposedly believe!


----------



## LovinOutside

formula1 said:


> I did. Mankind is evil and Jesus came to redeem the lost!
> 
> "All who believe", 'All who believe', 'All who believe'! Romans 3:21-22
> 
> I gave you 23 scriptures about seeking God, many of which proclaim 'If you seek ME(God), you will find me!'
> 
> I don't know what else to say when you deny the very scriptures you supposedly believe!



You seem to think that because God commands something you are capable of obeying it.  When you reach that perfection let me know.  God commands to keep the whole law but no one does or is capable of doing so.

They do not seek God.  No on in mankind does.  God commands them.  They do not do it.  They never ever do it.  That's the problem.  That's what Romans 3 is telling us.

You seem to think that because Paul said they are not seeking God that they really can.  That goes against the entire text describing their nature.  They can't clean themselves up.  Their throat is an open grave!  They cannot and do not do it.  God still commands.  They still don't do it.  The whole world is bound up like this.  All are under sins power until God changes them.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

God promises! And I trust His promise! 

God sees me through the redemptive power of Christ and changed me through that same power. I have access to God because He willed it in Christ and I believe and trust it!  

Romans 5:2
Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Ephesians 2:18
For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.

Ephesians 3:11-13
11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him.

Jesus is the bridge to God and if any man will seek Him, they will find Him.  That is God's promise, not mine!

What else can I say, except I wish you well!


----------



## LovinOutside

I have no idea what we are even arguing about anymore.  Thanks for the conversation though.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> you tellin' me i'd better make sure? well if it's already planned, well then, why tell me to make sure? I elect to make sure....nothing other than Jesus dying for me on the cross for my sins could ever make me choose the God of Abraham as my God...He offered up an offering for my sins, Jesus Christ, and I accepted/elected to choose the gospel....He ask me to be His bride and I said yes...a few times before, I said no and ran far away into darkness, and He let me go.
> 
> Now I believe God will bring you to your knees when He's ready to fetch His lost lamb....He'll let the debil just terrorize the heck out of ya until you fall to your knees and say help me Lord.
> 
> Sorry I'm sleepless and sleep deprived and delirious. We had one kid in the hood 3yrs old slam and busted a sliding glass door, an ambulance came and took her. She's ok, just sliced up a little. Then my next door neighors 1 month old grand son died of sids. They woke up and he was dead in his crib, the entire hood is flippin'. I just need to stay up a little longer and fix food etc. Oh the baby lived on the other side of me and the aunt and uncle across the street....whew Lordy.



All I'm doing is providing words from scripture rather than man.
Each person can you it as they wish.


----------



## Ronnie T

Bama4me said:


> You aren't correctly viewing Romans 3:11.  It's quoting Isaiah 52:11... where Isaiah was describing the state of Judah at the time of writing.  It's not "they can't seek God"... it's "they are not seeking Him."
> 
> I was NOT born a sinner.  If you will go back and read Ezekiel 18:4-29, Scripture portrays three men... a grandfather, a father, and a son/grandson.  The passage describes both the grandfather and grandson as one who fears God... while the father is an evil person.  Verses 19-20 claims the grandson would not suffer because of the iniquity of the father... and that the soul who sins will suffer death.  Notice... the soul who sins suffers death.
> 
> IF man is depraved when he is born (the idea you are representing), please explain why Jesus claimed that we should be like children in Luke 18:15-17... and also why Jesus said "to such belongs the kingdom of God."  If we are born unable to do any good thing (depraved), why did Jesus commend them for goodness?



Thank you very much.

Yes.


----------



## Ronnie T

LovinOutside said:


> You seem to think that because God commands something you are capable of obeying it.  When you reach that perfection let me know.  God commands to keep the whole law but no one does or is capable of doing so.
> 
> They do not seek God.  No on in mankind does.  God commands them.  They do not do it.  They never ever do it.  That's the problem.  That's what Romans 3 is telling us.
> 
> You seem to think that because Paul said they are not seeking God that they really can.  That goes against the entire text describing their nature.  They can't clean themselves up.  Their throat is an open grave!  They cannot and do not do it.  God still commands.  They still don't do it.  The whole world is bound up like this.  All are under sins power until God changes them.



Well, Yeah.

If God commands it, it's possible.
That doesn't mean I will, but it's possible.


----------



## Ronnie T

There's a lot of Bible study going on here.
That's always a good thing.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> There's a lot of Bible study going on here.
> That's always a good thing.



I basicly agree, but it's been a long time since I've seen the sin nature denied.  Still trying to decide what, if anything, that says about the conversation.


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> I basicly agree, but it's been a long time since I've seen the sin nature denied.  Still trying to decide what, if anything, that says about the conversation.



I don't think anyone's denying that.
The primary thing I deny is that God decided long ago that He would cause you to be saved but deny even the opportunity to me.
It's not true.


----------



## mtnwoman

LovinOutside said:


> You seem to think that because God commands something you are capable of obeying it.  When you reach that perfection let me know.  God commands to keep the whole law but no one does or is capable of doing so. *Exactly the point, because God commands us even His prechosen do not obey sometimes, would you agree? *
> 
> They do not seek God.  No on in mankind does.  God commands them.  They do not do it.  They never ever do it.  That's the problem.  That's what Romans 3 is telling us.*You can't build a whole new concept on that one scripture...well you can, doesn't mean the rest of us who look at the bible as a whole are gonna do that though.*
> 
> You seem to think that because Paul said they are not seeking God that they really can.  That goes against the entire text describing their nature.  They can't clean themselves up.  Their throat is an open grave!  They cannot and do not do it.  God still commands.  They still don't do it.  The whole world is bound up like this.  All are under sins power until God changes them.


*I agree that we can't clean our selves up, I agree that we can't circumsize our hearts or clean our spirits or forgive ourselves of sin, I believe that we have to elect to accept what God offers us initially though. And all we have to do is accept/elect to say yes Lord yes and the Holy Spirit takes over and fixes us up like new, we are reborn, made new, cleansed, but only at our own acceptance, God did not force me to be saved, I chose His salvation and do I thank Him for giving me the right mind and heart to do so, yes, but still I had to accept the gift, it was not forced upon me.*


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think anyone's denying that.
> The primary thing I deny is that God decided long ago that He would cause you to be saved but deny even the opportunity to me.
> It's not true.



I agree!

One of my son in laws thoughts is, the president didn't elect himself, people don't elect themselves, someone else has to do that. But elect also means to choose, like I elect to take phys ed instead of algebra...I chose that and when I did I went to the elect group in the gym of the others who chose/elected PE.

And the one verse in Romans 3 doesn't change a million other verses that God did what He did with the Lamb to give us all a choice. If we were prechosen anyway we wouldn't need a saviour, would we? 
And I say again, God does know what we will chose, but He didn't chose for us.


----------



## mtnwoman

LovinOutside said:


> You really don't believe we all are affected by the fall and have fallen natures?  Ephes. 2 clearly states we were "by nature children of wrath."  Never even heard of THD.  I'm not saying your DNA is somehow a transmitter.  Though it is fallen in the sense all of creation is (and moaning.)  You nature is not physical.  It's the "you" of you.  We are fallen creatures.  I am anyway.  You were born a sinner.  You sin because you are a sinner.  You are not a sinner because you sinned one time.  It's your nature to do evil.  Only the light of Jesus Gospel can open and change the heart and THANK GOD I wasn't dependent on some innate decision making process without God's enabling.  I'd be going to a devil's *ell.



I think most of us are not denying the bulk of this post. We all know we are sinners....I haven't been anywhere today but I'm sure I've sinned already, saying a bad word or something.
It was not an innate decision process for me. Jesus knocked on the outside of my heart, I opened the door and let Him in....therefore I did something...I let Him in...I accepted/elected to take the invitation that God set forth to all of us. 

I didn't do much, because I couldn't do much, I was broken, damaged and almost destroyed, but I did say Yes Lord Yes, I WANT YOU!!  God didn't just pick me and not my neighbor, He picked all of us, but we have to acknowledge that "whosever believeth"....I was a whosoever, not special, not of the elect, not of anything but sin, so I accepted/elected to take God up on His promise and He and He alone changed me and my world, that I had nothing to do with, I didn't have the ability to do that.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> I think most of us are not denying the bulk of this post. We all know we are sinners....I haven't been anywhere today but I'm sure I've sinned already, saying a bad word or something.



Did he know you would say those bad words?  Were you going to anything other than utter them?  Does he know just before they leave your lips whether or not you are going to say them or not?  I'm not saying that he makes you say them,  I'm just asking if you think there was anything else that you could have done, seeing as he knew what you were going to do.



mtnwoman said:


> It was not an innate decision process for me. Jesus knocked on the outside of my heart, I opened the door and let Him in....therefore I did something...I let Him in...I accepted/elected to take the invitation that God set forth to all of us.



Again, were you going to do anything other than what you did?  Does Goldilocks ever decide not to eat the porridge, turn around and leave the Bear's house?



mtnwoman said:


> I didn't do much, because I couldn't do much, I was broken, damaged and almost destroyed, but I did say Yes Lord Yes, I WANT YOU!!  God didn't just pick me and not my neighbor, He picked all of us, but we have to acknowledge that "whosever believeth"....I was a whosoever, not special, not of the elect, not of anything but sin, so I accepted/elected to take God up on His promise and He and He alone changed me and my world, that I had nothing to do with, I didn't have the ability to do that.



Does he know what I'm going to do?  Does he know if I will ever accept Christ?  What if his answer is "No. No you will not."?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Did he know you would say those bad words?  Were you going to anything other than utter them?  Does he know just before they leave your lips whether or not you are going to say them or not?  I'm not saying that he makes you say them,  I'm just asking if you think there was anything else that you could have done, seeing as he knew what you were going to do.*I didn't say the bad word because He knew I would say the bad word. Of course He knew I'd say the bad word, I'm sure it wasn't His will though. It was mine.*
> 
> 
> 
> Again, were you going to do anything other than what you did?  Does Goldilocks ever decide not to eat the porridge, turn around and leave the Bear's house?*If she knew what would happen she would, I've been told what will happen to me if I do or do not do certain things. I've had many chances to do the 'right' thing and finally accepted/elected to make that choice, probably goldilocks would too if she knew the consequences.*
> 
> 
> 
> Does he know what I'm going to do?  Does he know if I will ever accept Christ?  What if his answer is "No. No you will not."?



*He does know if we will accept Christ, but it's not Him that decided that, because He wills for no one to perish, He leaves it up to our free will to choose, otherwise wouldn't He change our minds if He wanted to? Since He says He chooses death for no one, that wouldn't have been His choice, it woulda been ours.

*


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think anyone's denying that.
> The primary thing I deny is that God decided long ago that He would cause you to be saved but deny even the opportunity to me.
> It's not true.



I'm sorry to say that mans' sin nature is directly denied in a post above.  I'll not point it out because I can't see the benefit.  What bothers me is, first that I'm concerned for the individual who holds to that belief, and second that if that is the theological base from which agruments are being made, the process can not help but be contaminated to some degree.

Although not with precision, I understand your position on soveriegnty vs. free will and I'm sure you have a equal understanding of mine.  It would be great if we could get together every Thursday afternoon for about twenty years and see if we could reconcile one or two points within the broader question.  Barring that being in God's plan, I don't see any reason that every discussion of the issue has to end up with locked horns.  I don't know if I should say this or not.....oh well, here goes.  The reason that many in the Reformed camp tend to be a bit stealth about their views is that they are demonized by misunderstanding and inuendo before there is an opportunity to get to the really great liberating part that leads to a relationship with God that has nothing to do with "Ain't it great that God chose me" or "Boy am I glad that I chose God".  Knowing that it will likely end in that fashion, which does absolutely nothing to advance The Kingdom, it seems better to avoid the controversy. (I alluded to this problem in my first post in this thread)

I have learned a little from this discussion, but I'll bet that a better tone and more open mindedness would have revealed a lot more to me and everyone who ever reads it.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> *He does know if we will accept Christ, but it's not Him that decided that, because He wills for no one to perish, He leaves it up to our free will to choose, otherwise wouldn't He change our minds if He wanted to? Since He says He chooses death for no one, that wouldn't have been His choice, it woulda been ours.
> 
> *



I'm not saying he makes you do anything.

I'm just asking you if you think that the events in your life are all written down in god's mind, like the words in a book, is there any way that you might possibly do anything other than what is written in the book?

Again, not placing blame but just trying to get an explanation that makes sense.


----------



## Bama4me

LovinOutside said:


> You seem to think that because God commands something you are capable of obeying it.  When you reach that perfection let me know.  God commands to keep the whole law but no one does or is capable of doing so.
> 
> They do not seek God.  No on in mankind does.  God commands them.  They do not do it.  They never ever do it.  That's the problem.  That's what Romans 3 is telling us.
> 
> You seem to think that because Paul said they are not seeking God that they really can.  That goes against the entire text describing their nature.  They can't clean themselves up.  Their throat is an open grave!  They cannot and do not do it.  God still commands.  They still don't do it.  The whole world is bound up like this.  All are under sins power until God changes them.



From this post, it seems you are struggling with a grasp of "how much can man clean himself up."  I don't know of anyone who reads scripture who doesn't come to the conclusion that only Christ can ultimately provide forgiveness... we can never make ourselves perfect w/o the cleansing blood of Jesus.

However, the fact that we can't create our salvation does not automatically mean that we don't have a "nature" that can ultimately submit to Christ.  You keep bringing up Romans 3... the first several chapters of this book are devoted to explaining the Jewish/Gentile relationship in Christ.  Paul's observation in verse 11 develops the idea presented in verse 9... all are "under sin."  However, one has to sin individually... they are not born in it (Romans 3:23).

You referenced Psalm 51:5... have you noticed David was writing this psalm after his adultery w/ Bathsheba?  May be just me, but after I do something terribly dumb, I am very prone to exaggeration.  Verse 4 clearly shows David did some of that in the passage... he had sinned against God, but he also sinned against Uriah, Bathsheba, etc.  BTW, he also uses the same thing in Psalm 6:6.    

The last thing I'll say on the subject is based on so much usage of Romans 3... if you go back to 1:18-32, Paul had described those who had chosen to reject God's glory... notice the terms which indicate they possessed ability to accept God if they so desired.
* 20 - they are without excuse (personal responsibility)
* 21 - they became futile (not born futile)
* 22 - they became foolish (not born foolish)
* 24 - God gave them up (not created them that way)
* 25 - they exchanged the truth for a lie
* 26 - exchanged natural relations (note: morally good)
* 28 - they did not see fit (not "they couldn't)


----------



## Ronnie T

Bama4me said:


> From this post, it seems you are struggling with a grasp of "how much can man clean himself up."  I don't know of anyone who reads scripture who doesn't come to the conclusion that only Christ can ultimately provide forgiveness... we can never make ourselves perfect w/o the cleansing blood of Jesus.
> 
> However, the fact that we can't create our salvation does not automatically mean that we don't have a "nature" that can ultimately submit to Christ.  You keep bringing up Romans 3... the first several chapters of this book are devoted to explaining the Jewish/Gentile relationship in Christ.  Paul's observation in verse 11 develops the idea presented in verse 9... all are "under sin."  However, one has to sin individually... they are not born in it (Romans 3:23).
> 
> You referenced Psalm 51:5... have you noticed David was writing this psalm after his adultery w/ Bathsheba?  May be just me, but after I do something terribly dumb, I am very prone to exaggeration.  Verse 4 clearly shows David did some of that in the passage... he had sinned against God, but he also sinned against Uriah, Bathsheba, etc.  BTW, he also uses the same thing in Psalm 6:6.
> 
> The last thing I'll say on the subject is based on so much usage of Romans 3... if you go back to 1:18-32, Paul had described those who had chosen to reject God's glory... notice the terms which indicate they possessed ability to accept God if they so desired.
> * 20 - they are without excuse (personal responsibility)
> * 21 - they became futile (not born futile)
> * 22 - they became foolish (not born foolish)
> * 24 - God gave them up (not created them that way)
> * 25 - they exchanged the truth for a lie
> * 26 - exchanged natural relations (note: morally good)
> * 28 - they did not see fit (not "they couldn't)





I think that does a lot to explain things.
Thanks


----------



## Bama4me

hummerpoo said:


> I'm sorry to say that mans' sin nature is directly denied in a post above.  I'll not point it out because I can't see the benefit.  What bothers me is, first that I'm concerned for the individual who holds to that belief, and second that if that is the theological base from which agruments are being made, the process can not help but be contaminated to some degree.
> 
> Although not with precision, I understand your position on soveriegnty vs. free will and I'm sure you have a equal understanding of mine.  It would be great if we could get together every Thursday afternoon for about twenty years and see if we could reconcile one or two points within the broader question.  Barring that being in God's plan, I don't see any reason that every discussion of the issue has to end up with locked horns.  I don't know if I should say this or not.....oh well, here goes.  The reason that many in the Reformed camp tend to be a bit stealth about their views is that they are demonized by misunderstanding and inuendo before there is an opportunity to get to the really great liberating part that leads to a relationship with God that has nothing to do with "Ain't it great that God chose me" or "Boy am I glad that I chose God".  Knowing that it will likely end in that fashion, which does absolutely nothing to advance The Kingdom, it seems better to avoid the controversy. (I alluded to this problem in my first post in this thread)
> 
> I have learned a little from this discussion, but I'll bet that a better tone and more open mindedness would have revealed a lot more to me and everyone who ever reads it.



I'm glad for the opportunity for open discussion... and if no one had any passion for their beliefs on the subject, it would probably mean we aren't convicted.  Personally, I think that one reason this subject (along with the other tenets of Calvinism) is so volatile is due to the nature of both man and God.  Calvinism claims man is unable to do anything regarding his salvation... God does everything (including giving him faith to believe).  Those who don't subscribe to Calvinism claims God provides mankind an opportunity for salvation... but allows him to choose.  In one, God does everything... in the other, God and man both play a role in salvation.  

These two positions are very far apart... and believing one or the other shapes our view of God, salvation, and how one develops a relationship with God.  Here's the thing, though... both ideas can't be correct.  Thus, we must closely examine the whole of Scripture to seek an answer... as we should for all our questions.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I'm not saying he makes you do anything.
> 
> I'm just asking you if you think that the events in your life are all written down in god's mind, like the words in a book, is there any way that you might possibly do anything other than what is written in the book?
> 
> Again, not placing blame but just trying to get an explanation that makes sense.



The only answer I know is that I do believe God knows everything that I have done and will do, if He knows every hair on my head, He already knows what I'm gonna do, whether it's His will or not, He still knows. 
I do believe that prayer "could" change something, but I think God would know that would happen, too. Even though God knew all the things that I've done, even before I did them, most of those things were not His will according to the list of sins in the Bible.

I also believe that if I went back when I was 20 and let God take the wheel and live within His will, I would've done a lot of different things. The things I chose/elected to do would not have been what My Father in heaven would choose for me.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> The only answer I know is that I do believe God knows everything that I have done and will do, if He knows every hair on my head, He already knows what I'm gonna do, whether it's His will or not, He still knows.
> I do believe that prayer "could" change something, but I think God would know that would happen, too. Even though God knew all the things that I've done, even before I did them, most of those things were not His will according to the list of sins in the Bible.
> 
> I also believe that if I went back when I was 20 and let God take the wheel and live within His will, I would've done a lot of different things. The things I chose/elected to do would not have been what My Father in heaven would choose for me.



What if God knows that I will never repent?  What am I to do? How can I be saved?  How can I escape my destiny?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> What if God knows that I will never repent?  What am I to do? How can I be saved?  How can I escape my destiny?



If you never repent you cannot be saved. God knows that you wouldn't or would though. 

You can be saved by repenting and if you were going to, God would know that, too. But He knows ahead what your choice is going to be.

You not repenting is your choice though, because it has been offered to everyone....and I'm pretty sure living in this country most people already know what they have to do to be a Christian, whether they do or not is up to them, even though God knows which ones will and which ones won't. I'm sure that isn't His will for anyone to perish.
God never put us in two lines and chose you go here and the others go there, we choose, He just happens to know what we will choose, just like knows everything else about me.


----------



## mtnwoman

Bama4me said:


> I'm glad for the opportunity for open discussion... and if no one had any passion for their beliefs on the subject, it would probably mean we aren't convicted.  Personally, I think that one reason this subject (along with the other tenets of Calvinism) is so volatile is due to the nature of both man and God.  Calvinism claims man is unable to do anything regarding his salvation... God does everything (including giving him faith to believe).  Those who don't subscribe to Calvinism claims God provides mankind an opportunity for salvation... but allows him to choose.  In one, God does everything... in the other, God and man both play a role in salvation.
> 
> These two positions are very far apart... and believing one or the other shapes our view of God, salvation, and how one develops a relationship with God.  Here's the thing, though... both ideas can't be correct.  Thus, we must closely examine the whole of Scripture to seek an answer... as we should for all our questions.



I agree.

All I have to do is accept and God does the rest. I can do all things thru Christ who/which strengthens me, because I accepted  His calling, everyone does not.  If anyone has even heard about Christ they're on notice to accept or not. Everyone I personally know, has heard the gospel, but not all have accepted, I don't know which ones will or which ones won't, so I keep them 'covered', but God does know which ones will or won't.


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> What if God knows that I will never repent?  What am I to do? How can I be saved?  How can I escape my destiny?



you either don't care or do. if you really do, then you can. If you don't you'll discover "but I was just the way you made me" is a lousy excuse, cause he'll just say..."if you really knew I made you, then why'd you keep speaking and acting it wasn't so?"

He may or may not say "liar" after the last statement. may you nor I ever have to hear it.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> you either don't care or do. if you really do, then you can. If you don't you'll discover "but I was just the way you made me" is a lousy excuse, cause he'll just say..."if you really knew I made you, then why'd you keep speaking and acting it wasn't so?"
> 
> He may or may not say "liar" after the last statement. may you nor I ever have to hear it.



Again, I'm not blaming him or anybody for making me a particular way, but he does know which way i will vote.  How can I not do what he knows I already will?

What if it's not in my cards to come to that realization?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Again, I'm not blaming him or anybody for making me a particular way, but he does know which way i will vote.  How can I not do what he knows I already will?
> 
> What if it's not in my cards to come to that realization?



It is in your cards though to come to the realization, who do you know of personally that hasn't heard the gospel, I know you have so you have a choice....it is not in His will for anyone to perish. You have a choice, even though God knows everything. He knows the number of hairs on my head and He knows when I'm about to pull them out, does He choose for me to pull my hair out? of course not, but since I have free will I'll pull it out if'n I have to...lol.

I'm sure it's in His will for me to have more patience, does He just hand me over patience when I get saved....Lordy I wished He would. We cultivate it based on what the Bible says His will is for us.


----------



## gtparts

ambush80 said:


> Again, I'm not blaming him or anybody for making me a particular way, but he does know which way i will vote.  How can I not do what he knows I already will?
> 
> What if it's not in my cards to come to that realization?



And if you vote according to how you choose, how does Him knowing (before you vote) force your decision? Foreknowledge does not mean He causes you to vote that way, only that He knows. While He could interfere with the process, sometimes He chooses to take no action, for or against. Much of life unfolds without supernatural intervention, He just allows it to happen.


----------



## ambush80

gtparts said:


> And if you vote according to how you choose, how does Him knowing (before you vote) force your decision? Foreknowledge does not mean He causes you to vote that way, only that He knows. While He could interfere with the process, sometimes He chooses to take no action, for or against. Much of life unfolds without supernatural intervention, He just allows it to happen.



For the last time:  

I'm not saying that anybody forced my decision.

What I contend is that if my future is known by ANYONE then there is in fact no decision.  Things will transpire exactly as they were supposed to.  

If he (or anybody) knows that I will die and never accept Jesus,  is there a possibility that I will do anything else?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> If he (or anybody) knows that I will die and never accept Jesus,  is there a possibility that I will do anything else?



No.

Did you consciously decide at some point, some moment, some second in your life to accept Christ? Did you choose to be baptized because you thought or were convicted to do so and God tells us to. After salvation God can do much more with us, and I do believe that it's all planned and we're following the plan sometimes....but yet me, myself and I still get in the way and I'm out of God's will sometimes...still.

Do you think about things that you could do and then decide against them after prayer or careful thought?

Does God know what you will do, yes He does...are you a robot and must do God's will, no. Does He put things in front of you, a road sign, the voice of a child, a sermon? of course He does because when you have said yes and become saved, you are sensitive to the Holy Spirit. He still doesn't force you, but being saved you then ARE following where He leads you, because you want to. When you are not saved you usually don't even have a clue what is going on.  

I have seen Christ calling an unsaved person and I know or believe that is what's happening and yet they don't see it at all, and will sometimes even blow you off. I don't know if they will come to salvation, but God knows. They may never open their minds to it but yet with me even talking to them about it is an invitation or calling from Christ. They have to accept, God doesn't say yes for them. Does He still call through me even though He knows they won't accept, I believe He does. Because I don't know who will and who will not be saved. I just know I am and Christ calls us to preach the gospel all the time to everyone.

Did He choose for me to party for 30 yrs and live a life in darkness rather than be a missionary....no I chose that, did He know I was going to? yes. Did He know I'd be delivered, yes.


To me this is a difficult topic, just like trying to explain the Trinity to someone. Which seems virtually impossible sometimes especially to someone who isn't saved or maybe a mocker of Christ. 

I don't believe this topic is salvation altering either. It's going to be impossible for all of us to agree.
If we agree that Christ is our saviour and is the son of God, that's the most important thing, and if we do most of us will try to abide by His will for us as expressed in the Bible. 

I have been angry at God before and blaming Him for all the years I wasted being wasted and missed out on a lot of 
other things. I still struggle with it sometimes, because when I started I was so naive. However I was saved at 12 and God did let me go about as far I could go and then He snatched me back. I was already His, though. 

Do I believe He let me wander off for and turned it out for good? I do believe that because I have an awesome testimony to young girls now. Had I not been saved at an early age (personally speaking), I may have never come back on my own. Did He come and get His lost lamb? yes, because I was already His. 

After we are saved we see things differently than before we were saved...so to go back and say "if" this or that it's nearly impossible.
I just have to believe what I'm personally convicted of, which may be different than what someone else's convictions are because our sins are all counted the same but sometimes our temptations are different.  ie I never had a bank robbin' problem, ya know, but I did plenty else...etc.

Sorry to make this so long and this post is just for anyone. I just felt like testifying this morning.

I'm thankful I'm saved and I thank God everyday, and I'm thankful for whoever else is saved even though we may process things differently.

With Much Love,
Ramblin' Rose


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> What if it's not in my cards to come to that realization?


 
There mere fact that you would openly ask that question is, IMO, a sign that He is calling you to his love.  Why would you be interested otherwise?   Think about it!
It's like the christians who are fear'd they may blaspheme the Holy Spirit...  I'd say the concern itself means the opposite in most cases.


----------



## mtnwoman

StriperAddict said:


> There mere fact that you would openly ask that question is, IMO, a sign that He is calling you to his love.  Why would you be interested otherwise?   Think about it!
> It's like the christians who are fear'd they may blaspheme the Holy Spirit...  I'd say the concern itself means the opposite in most cases.



Amen!!

My daddy nearly went insane a few times during his life over religion/Christianity. He read other things, like watchtower and other stuff and got confused. 
Please anyone who may get too overboard on some of this stuff, if you're saved, remember Jesus' yoke is light. Just believe even if it's just in a simple way. John 3:16 has always been my home base verse.

I understand about 10% of the Bible. I mostly stick to love, grace and mercy and prayer and the fruit of the spirit. That's about as much as this peabrain can handle. That's why the OT is so uh let's say "strict", because we had to do something or try to do something physically for our atonement, we couldn't....thus the Cross, the wondrous Cross. All we have to do is say yes Lord yes, and pretty much that's about all any of us can really do on our own as far as salvation goes. Once we say yes, the HS runs to us and carries us....Thank you God, Thank you Jesus!!!


----------



## StriperAddict

Thanks Annie.  I am also blessed by that 'yoke' from the Lord.  I find great peace in staying close and being watchful over the issues of grace and mercy/forgiveness, while finding my way thru life's storms and arrows (Lam 3).


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Amen!!
> 
> My daddy nearly went insane a few times during his life over religion/Christianity. He read other things, like watchtower and other stuff and got confused.
> Please anyone who may get too overboard on some of this stuff, if you're saved, remember Jesus' yoke is light. Just believe even if it's just in a simple way. John 3:16 has always been my home base verse.
> 
> I understand about 10% of the Bible. I mostly stick to love, grace and mercy and prayer and the fruit of the spirit. That's about as much as this peabrain can handle. That's why the OT is so uh let's say "strict", because we had to do something or try to do something physically for our atonement, we couldn't....thus the Cross, the wondrous Cross. All we have to do is say yes Lord yes, and pretty much that's about all any of us can really do on our own as far as salvation goes. Once we say yes, the HS runs to us and carries us....Thank you God, Thank you Jesus!!!



Great points Annie.  I've known more than one person that almost became insane in their search to be able to answer every question the Bible raises.
I see that desire in myself at times.  I see it on this forum a lot.
We gonna have to make up a lot of stuff to be able to answer all the questions.  
My favorite answer today is:  "I don't know".  It sits well with me and helps me better understand what I am.


----------



## ambush80

StriperAddict said:


> There mere fact that you would openly ask that question is, IMO, a sign that He is calling you to his love.  Why would you be interested otherwise?   Think about it!
> It's like the christians who are fear'd they may blaspheme the Holy Spirit...  I'd say the concern itself means the opposite in most cases.



I hear people say they believe in predestination AND free will and I'm dumbfounded by this.  I am compelled to ask how they can rationalize these two things existing simultaneously.  Then I realize, every time,  that no rational answer can be given.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I hear people say they believe in predestination AND free will and I'm dumbfounded by this.  I am compelled to ask how they can rationalize these two things existing simultaneously.  Then I realize, every time,  that no rational answer can be given.



I guess then it's about faith and trusting God doesn't expect that we know all the right answers to enter into His kingdom...Thank You For the Cross...that is my right of way.
Try explaining the trinity....it depends on the receiver of how well you can explain or bumble thru it.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> I guess then it's about faith and trusting God doesn't expect that we know all the right answers to enter into His kingdom...Thank You For the Cross...that is my right of way.
> Try explaining the trinity....it depends on the receiver of how well you can explain or bumble thru it.



If I could talk to your son in law I would share with him some of the good advice that I have gotten here from Christians.  One of the most important pieces of advice that I was given was that when it comes down to the things in the Bible that don't make any sense, one should stop trying to make it make sense.

If you want to stay strong in your faith, when you come across a question that you just can't seem to answer in a rational way then stop asking it.  If it keeps bugging you then it's probably the Devil trying to shake your faith.

Best of luck to you all.


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> I hear people say they believe in predestination AND free will and I'm dumbfounded by this.  I am compelled to ask how they can rationalize these two things existing simultaneously.  Then I realize, every time,  that no rational answer can be given.



X2... and you can't reconcile those two ideas using the word of God.  One or the other has to be true.


----------



## ambush80

Bama4me said:


> X2... and you can't reconcile those two ideas using the word of God.  One or the other has to be true.



As a matter of fact you can.  See, there's this very important concept that responds to all of the contradictory notions and nonsensical claims made by the Bible and that is:  

"His ways are not our ways."  

This is the "Get out of jail free" card when boxed into a logical corner.  If that explanation  isn't good enough for you, well, then you're a bad Christian.  

Amen?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> If I could talk to your son in law I would share with him some of the good advice that I have gotten here from Christians.  One of the most important pieces of advice that I was given was that when it comes down to the things in the Bible that don't make any sense, one should stop trying to make it make sense.
> 
> If you want to stay strong in your faith, when you come across a question that you just can't seem to answer in a rational way then stop asking it.  If it keeps bugging you then it's probably the Devil trying to shake your faith.
> 
> Best of luck to you all.



You are exactly right!

Jump back debbil!


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> If I could talk to your son in law I would share with him some of the good advice that I have gotten here from Christians.  One of the most important pieces of advice that I was given was that when it comes down to the things in the Bible that don't make any sense, one should stop trying to make it make sense.



The Lord is far greater than I can ever imagine and I am just not gonna "get it" on this side of eternity on several issues. I'm good with that, for the sake of what I see of His love and grace.
Other times an issue comes up that I'll choose to spend some time on. God is not a god of confusion, but peace, so my conflict lies in my misunderstanding, not His word.
Case in point; when I was a young believer I got all tripped up about how Adam/Eve didn't die right after they bit in to the forbidden fruit. As time went on, I started learning the meaning of 'spiritual death' (ex: 1Tim5:6 "But the widow who lives only for pleasure is spiritually dead even while she lives.") and my initial problem with the Genesis account was resolved, and even led to deeper study and understanding.

Not all 'word struggles' will necessarily have a final black & white answer, but many of them will help to build and solidify faith.  We just have to choose our battles wisely and accept by faith that God alone is better than our self-reasoning, esp. if it contradicts the Spirit led life and keeps us from peace.


----------



## Backcountry

I don't post in here much...but i like Psalms 8.  

3When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;

4What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

5For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

I believe man is the elect of his creation and the grace of God is sufficient for all men if they choose salvation.  With pharoah's heart, I believe God can intervene on my part in my "enemies" heart.   God removed his intervention from that situation...*allowing* phar. heart harden to achieve the best for God's people and perform miracles so that they would know that he is God.  Pharaoh had made his choice not to serve God. that was choice was over due to pharaoh's doing.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> If that explanation  isn't good enough for you, well, then you're a bad Christian.
> 
> Amen?



That seems to be the case.  I can't tell you how many times as a kid I was chastised for questioning an "alimighty God" when all I wanted to do was make sense of something that Biblically didn't make sense.  Now, years later, I get my faith questioned when I seek answers and refuse to accept the "finite human minds" response.

I personally don't think God would want to be a mystery.


----------



## gtparts

ambush80 said:


> For the last time:
> 
> I'm not saying that anybody forced my decision.
> 
> What I contend is that if my future is known by ANYONE then there is in fact no decision.  Things will transpire exactly as they were supposed to.
> 
> If he (or anybody) knows that I will die and never accept Jesus,  is there a possibility that I will do anything else?



Thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly, you have posed a conundrum, an enigma for which there in no rational explanation. When considering the things of God, it is impossible to assume we can understand all that He is, all He does. We will never have His perspective. 

How does a a physical person (who relies on the physical, defines most everything in physical terms) grasp the truth and essence of a supreme being that is spirit? 

It is the one thing that made Jesus the ultimate expression of the Father's revelation of Himself, to us. There is nothing that better shows the Father to us, than the Son.


----------



## JB0704

gtparts said:


> How does a a physical person (who relies on the physical, defines most everything in physical terms) grasp the truth and essence of a supreme being that is spirit?
> 
> It is the one thing that made Jesus the ultimate expression of the Father's revelation of Himself, to us. There is nothing that better shows the Father to us, than the Son.



So, the second sentence answers the first?  Which would indicate God wants us to understand him.


----------



## gtparts

JB0704 said:


> So, the second sentence answers the first?  Which would indicate God wants us to understand him.



Absolutely, to the extent that we can understand. There is, however, some cooperation required of each of us. We are asked to exercise the faith He gives us, and if we do, He will grow that faith and confirm it in many ways, some natural and some supernatural.

It also might be helpful to grasp that those two paragraphs above are just words on a screen. The second reality is the answer to the question posed by the first reality.


----------



## gordon 2

People's ideas of God are all-over-the-place.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> That seems to be the case.  I can't tell you how many times as a kid I was chastised for questioning an "alimighty God" when all I wanted to do was make sense of something that Biblically didn't make sense.  Now, years later, I get my faith questioned when I seek answers and refuse to accept the "finite human minds" response.
> 
> I personally don't think God would want to be a mystery.




Now that you're all grown up they call you Heathen.




gtparts said:


> Thanks for the clarification. If I understand correctly, you have posed a conundrum, an enigma for which there in no rational explanation. When considering the things of God, it is impossible to assume we can understand all that He is, all He does. We will never have His perspective.
> 
> How does a a physical person (who relies on the physical, defines most everything in physical terms) grasp the truth and essence of a supreme being that is spirit?
> 
> It is the one thing that made Jesus the ultimate expression of the Father's revelation of Himself, to us. There is nothing that better shows the Father to us, than the Son.



I have come to understand this thing well, thanks in some part to you, GT.  See:



ambush80 said:


> As a matter of fact you can.  See, there's this very important concept that responds to all of the contradictory notions and nonsensical claims made by the Bible and that is:
> 
> "His ways are not our ways."
> 
> This is the "Get out of jail free" card when boxed into a logical corner.  If that explanation  isn't good enough for you, well, then you're a bad Christian.
> 
> Amen?


----------



## ambush80

I guess we're all done with this.  

Don't ask no questions what can't get no answerin'.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I guess we're all done with this.
> 
> Don't ask no questions what can't get no answerin'.



'Otay', I'll remember that next time I start a thread...

I like the way we all pretty much behaved ourselves, though.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Now that you're all grown up they call you Heathen.
> 
> *Hey, that's heathern, or heatheren...lol*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have come to understand this thing well, thanks in some part to you, GT.  See:


----------



## Israel

The elect are in heaven with God.
Some just don't know it yet.
Will you tell them?


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> The elect are in heaven with God.
> Some just don't know it yet.
> Will you tell them?




Does it make any difference?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Does it make any difference?



It may not make a difference to whoever you're telling, but it does matter to God for us to be obedient and it matters to me, I absolutely cannot keep my mouth shut when I get the 'notion' to start tellin' someone about Jesus!


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> It may not make a difference to whoever you're telling, but it does matter to God for us to be obedient and it matters to me, I absolutely cannot keep my mouth shut when I get the 'notion' to start tellin' someone about Jesus!




I meant "does it make a difference" ultimately.

Is it possible that 6Mil Ham, Diogenese (rest his soul) and myself are The Elect and you, Ronnie T, TedBSR and Israel are not?  

Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants?


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> As a matter of fact you can.  See, there's this very important concept that responds to all of the contradictory notions and nonsensical claims made by the Bible and that is:
> 
> "His ways are not our ways."
> 
> This is the "Get out of jail free" card when boxed into a logical corner.  If that explanation  isn't good enough for you, well, then you're a bad Christian.
> 
> Amen?



But, see... there's this issue of the Bible being united.  In other words, one passage in the Bible is not going to be in direct contradiction with another passage.  A person can't have "free will" and be "predestined" at the same time.  God either makes the choice for the invidual or the individual makes the choice... it can't be both ways.  Us not being able to completely understand God has nothing to do with this subject.  It IS, however, totally about the question of what man is able/not able to do based on his created nature.


----------



## hummerpoo

mtnwoman said:


> It may not make a difference to whoever you're telling, but it does matter to God for us to be obedient and it matters to me, I absolutely cannot keep my mouth shut when I get the 'notion' to start tellin' someone about Jesus!



You keep on listening to those "notions", talk to God about them, and let the Spirit guide your tongue, and I believe with all that is in me that it will make a difference to God and many that you talk to.


----------



## ambush80

Bama4me said:


> But, see... there's this issue of the Bible being united.  In other words, one passage in the Bible is not going to be in direct contradiction with another passage.  A person can't have "free will" and be "predestined" at the same time.  God either makes the choice for the invidual or the individual makes the choice... it can't be both ways.  Us not being able to completely understand God has nothing to do with this subject.  It IS, however, totally about the question of what man is able/not able to do based on his created nature.




Playing Devil's advocate:

You don't, can't and won't ever understand how God works because you're an ant.  God is God and you're an ant.  You are trying to use rules that don't apply to God. 




hummerpoo said:


> You keep on listening to those "notions", talk to God about them, and let the Spirit guide your tongue, and I believe with all that is in me that it will make a difference to God and many that you talk to.



Except for the ones that were never going to be convinced no matter what anyway.  He knows who they are.


----------



## hummerpoo

ambush80 said:


> Except for the ones that were never going to be convinced no matter what anyway.  He knows who they are.



You'll note that I said "many" that mtnwoman talks to.

The other part of it is that when she is following the Lord's leading it may not be the person she is talking to that is God's intended beneficiary.


----------



## ambush80

hummerpoo said:


> You'll note that I said "many" that mtnwoman talks to.
> 
> The other part of it is that when she is following the Lord's leading it may not be the person she is talking to that is God's intended beneficiary.



I'm goin' ta Heabn'.  I don't care what any of you say.  I've been chosen.  I have the mark; the seal of approval.  USDA saved.  I was chosen from the beginning of time.  I'm special.


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> Playing Devil's advocate:
> 
> You don't, can't and won't ever understand how God works because you're an ant.  God is God and you're an ant.  You are trying to use rules that don't apply to God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Except for the ones that were never going to be convinced no matter what anyway.  He knows who they are.



Though I do understand to a point what some say when discussing "understanding God," I don't get what you're saying when you claim we can't understand "how God works."  Isn't that what Scripture is for... for us to learn the things about God He has revealed to us.  Certainly, you're not telling me that I can't understand God's love for us... nor are you telling me I can't understand how God is all-powerful.  Sorry... you can claim ignorance in your case, but I believe what the word says about God.  And... what the word says about God doesn't contradict itself.  Going back to the subject, "predestination" and "free will" don't mix because Scripture says the two don't mix... not because I say so.


----------



## ambush80

Bama4me said:


> Though I do understand to a point what some say when discussing "understanding God," I don't get what you're saying when you claim we can't understand "how God works."  Isn't that what Scripture is for... for us to learn the things about God He has revealed to us.  Certainly, you're not telling me that I can't understand God's love for us... nor are you telling me I can't understand how God is all-powerful.  Sorry... you can claim ignorance in your case, but I believe what the word says about God.  And... what the word says about God doesn't contradict itself.  Going back to the subject, "predestination" and "free will" don't mix because Scripture says the two don't mix... not because I say so.



You're trying to understand scripture as a human being.  You're flawed, and a born sinner to boot.   The scripture is like quantum physicians and you have only studied alegebraicism.  Don't try to quantificationfy the Holy Word. Just believe.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I meant "does it make a difference" ultimately.
> 
> Is it possible that 6Mil Ham, Diogenese (rest his soul) and myself are The Elect and you, Ronnie T, TedBSR and Israel are not?
> 
> Wouldn't that be a kick in the pants?



It isn't possible that I'm not of the elect....I know I elected myself to follow Jesus. He called my name and I said yes, Lord, yes!  If you haven't said yes, then you are not of the elect.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I'm goin' ta Heabn'.  I don't care what any of you say.  I've been chosen.  I have the mark; the seal of approval.  USDA saved.  I was chosen from the beginning of time.  I'm special.



Well were all chosen....make sure you say yes to Jesus and mean it by believing, and you're all set.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> You're trying to understand scripture as a human being.  You're flawed, and a born sinner to boot.   The scripture is like quantum physicians and you have only studied alegebraicism.  Don't try to quantificationfy the Holy Word. Just believe.



That goes for me, too. I have found that I come to wisdom right when I need it, and sometimes it's a change of mind actually or maybe how I understand/understood scripture. 
The word of God is sharper than any twoedged sword, dividing asunder soul (me) and spirit (the part that connects with God).....can you imagine in the super natural of being able to seperate what you consider perfect understanding in your soul, to perfect understanding in the spirit? And sometimes it's like wiggling loose from a trap and freeing yourself.


----------



## Israel

The elect are in heaven with God.
Some just don't know it yet.
Will you tell them? 




ambush80 said:


> Does it make any difference?




Yes, it makes all the difference there is.
To do something simply because the Lord has told you to...and not because you think you understand how it works, or are going to do something to "make it work".

Invite everyone to dinner, even knowing that only those who are appointed to be there, will come.

Our instruction is to extend the invitation, not try and figure who, or how those chosen to come, get to be there.
That, is entirely above our pay grade.


----------



## hummerpoo

ambush80 said:


> I'm goin' ta Heabn'.  I don't care what any of you say.  I've been chosen.  I have the mark; the seal of approval.  USDA saved.  I was chosen from the beginning of time.  I'm special.



If you are saying that is my attitude, you are mistaken.  If you go way back on this forum you will find a statement that I made something like this...If God has decided that I will end up in he11, that's O.K. with me.  It doesn't change who He is, and who He is demands that I serve Him if I can.


----------



## gordon 2

ambush80 said:


> You're trying to understand scripture as a human being.  You're flawed, and a born sinner to boot.   The scripture is like quantum physicians and you have only studied alegebraicism.  Don't try to quantificationfy the Holy Word. Just believe.



This is a very good analogy of how some christians understand faith. It is not unlike a "funny" book or satiric cartoon of  a misunderstood reality.

If we can agree that Paul was a christian with understanding Paul said that God was revealed as just throughout scripture.

So christians that claim we cannot know God that He is too big and we are to small, or that He is too Holy and we are too sinful are not to the same faith that was Paul.

Ambush I don't know why you must glean from christians what has been left in their fields and  take it as their best harvest? Why do you make scarecrows out of the straw that is left? There is nothing to protect from the birds except the occational worm or marmot?

Why do you what to camp out behind the barns of christianity while there is in christianity a table and a bed  and a whole farm house for you?


The apostle Paul tells us, as do many pastors and preists and ordinary christians today that God promised to Abraham, a rightious man because of his faith in God, that he Abraham would be the father of many nations, including gentile nations (  blue eyed greeks).

Now Paul says that thru Jesus the Greeks are called to Abraham's faith, which is simply faith in God. This faith in God is simply knowing God, know what God is, who He is, why He is, where He is etc....

Now the Greeks were compared to the Jews when Paul said  that God called the Greeks thru Jesus because of the promise made to Abraham. So we are all called to God via the faith, and that faith includes knowing God. (You are correct to point out that how can many be directed by what they do not know?) Most of us I would venture are either of Helenistic stock or of Barbarian stock and in this we are the Greeks Paul allludes to. We are called simply because of a promise made to Abraham.

Therefore we are all called by God thru Jesus to the faith. That faith is the same faith we are told in scripture that makes Abraham rightious or sanctified.

Now to this "call" which Paul talks about, we as Greeks are left to answer yes, maybe, perhaps, I don't know, maybe someday,  latter, gee this is all Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, and no.

Those that answered yes at the first or eventually are the elect as has been mentioned in this tread from the very beginning. Those that are saying perhaps, maybe, someday, they are beating up scarecrows that have no usefulness. Those that say no, well they are missing out on the world full of grace and justice for a world of good and evil.

In the light that is furnished by the ministry of Jesus that leads to God, the focus of Abraham's faith, grace and justice see grace and justice. Where his faith is absent, one sees good and evil from good and evil.

Now this is not rocket science for christians or for you. The God of Abraham is not to big for all to know and understand--contrary to what many "holy and saintly people" might tell you. They don't know it but they are dismissing their apostle Paul, calling him a saint by day and a fool by night. Do not listen to them.

The elect are those that said and say yes to Jesus that thru him they get to know the father (God) and  in trusting Him are made rightious just as Abraham was...and the burdens of this world are made lighter for grace and justice according to God's justice and grace--not the justice and the killing force of our predatory natures. 

Now this might be scary, but it is not rocket science, or quantum physics to those educated on Family Guy, the Simpsons and the like....

We are always afraid of loosing ourselves because there is much to loose our selves to. Using Jesus as a spiritual benchmark we can be anywhere and everywhere and still know our way home. It takes time to get use to, but once you get the hang of it, it's like riding a bicycle, barring a stroke and inner ear problems, one never forgets the balance.

So don't be afraid, get on the bicycle and try it-- the worst you can do is fall. And hey, avoid scarecrows, their is a post in them that can break an arm or your leg.

Now on predestination: In His promise to Abraham God predestined that many nations would come from his seed. Abraham's seed is a spiritual seed and that seed germinates for our faith in God. Abraham's God is a God of justice and grace, and we have trust in His, this His nature.


*** On an other note, my biological father was a great guitar player and it was difficult to learn from him  when he was alive...he was so good. Then he died and i heard everywhere what he had tried to teach me... and for his spirit and his councels, many yrs after he had passed I learned again from him.

Peace bros... Called, Elect, and Predestined...baahhh! Just pick up ur guitar.

Peace bros.


----------



## StriperAddict

Thanks Gordon, great post.  

Me do some "string pickin' " too


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> You're trying to understand scripture as a human being.  You're flawed, and a born sinner to boot.   The scripture is like quantum physicians and you have only studied alegebraicism.  Don't try to quantificationfy the Holy Word. Just believe.



Scripture is NOT that complicated to understand... nor is it something we can never come to know.  If human beings can't grasp what the Bible says, why did our Lord say what is recorded in John 8:31-32... "If you abide in My word, you are truly My disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."

What you're saying is that we're not intelligent enough to understand what God has revealed to us.  Personally, that's an insult to each person... but more than that, it's an insult to God.  We're made in the image of God... and if Genesis 1:26 is true, there is no way we're created in such a way that we are born depraved (sinners).

In this thread, I have cited several scriptures to prove that man has free will... you've made many assertions claiming otherwise.  Where do you find those teachings in God's word?  Show me in Scripture why the things you are claiming are true... otherwise, you're asking me to go beyond what is written (1 Corinthians 4:6).


----------



## Crubear

I understand Paul, sometimes more than I want to admit.
I understand scripture (sometimes differently than you).
I know God, but I don't understand Him.
I'm OK with that.

The only scriptures I need to get through each day are
1) In the begining God created...
2) Love the Lord your God with all your....
3) Do this in rememberance of me.
4) Who do you say that I am?
5) Do unto others....
6) Love one another as I have loved you.
7) Let the one without sin throw the first stone.

You can either make your relationship with God simple or complex. God seems (to me) to like simple.


----------



## gordon 2

Crubear said:


> I understand Paul, sometimes more than I want to admit.
> I understand scripture (sometimes differently than you).
> I know God, but I don't understand Him.
> I'm OK with that.
> 
> The only scriptures I need to get through each day are
> 1) In the begining God created...
> 2) Love the Lord your God with all your....
> 3) Do this in rememberance of me.
> 4) Who do you say that I am?
> 5) Do unto others....
> 6) Love one another as I have loved you.
> 7) Let the one without sin throw the first stone.
> 
> You can either make your relationship with God simple or complex. God seems (to me) to like simple.



I don't know you, and I might be out of bounds here,but I will suggest something here that comes from you  own wisdom. And seriously it is a wisdom that I thank you for.

"I understand Paul, sometimes more than I want to admit."

 It is perhaps ok to admit more, and that more is Grace as opposed to the Law-- as Paul explains.

Perhaps the complexity christians give themselves is in the transition from the Law to Grace. Perhaps our lives are complicated because we live "that" by Grace and "this" by the Law.  We are spiritually in two camps. This is confusing to people like ambush.

Paul says that by grace Jesus has aquitted us of our sins. In a sense it is our last judgement. Yet we continue to judge and live as if there had never been an aquital or mercy that could be of any part of justice. And Ambush being no fool, knows not all is well with us.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> It isn't possible that I'm not of the elect....I know I elected myself to follow Jesus. He called my name and I said yes, Lord, yes!  If you haven't said yes, then you are not of the elect.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


>



I notice you are more and more emotional lately.


----------



## mtnwoman

gordon 2 said:


> I notice you are more and more emotional lately.



Ronnie's joyful!! I like joy. I do have peace and joy, and workin' on patience when I'm less joyful...lol


----------



## ambush80

I'm one of the elect too!!!!  Hallelujah!!!!

I can feel it in my bones!!  Nah nah nah nah nah all you predestined to go to He11 suckers!!


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I'm one of the elect too!!!!  Hallelujah!!!!



Alright!! That's awesome!!


----------



## gtparts

mtnwoman said:


> Alright!! That's awesome!!


Great news!! I am looking forward to signs of his sanctification. It will make this forum a more pleasant place.


----------



## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> Great news!! I am looking forward to signs of his sanctification. It will make this forum a more pleasant place.



And more fruitful, too.


----------



## mtnwoman

Remember when I said I was gonna pull my hair out over this issue, well I'm bald on one side....hahahahahahaha.

I found out about 2 weeks ago that my youngest brother, about 44, left the family church and joined another church because he now believes in the elect thing.

That God chose us to be saved before we were born.

When I ask him or my son in law any questions all they do is send me a link from someone that I've never heard of, except for Spurgeon.

All I ask is, what will you say to someone who asks you these questions?

Can God save me? I've been so evil?
Will God save me, if I come to an understanding with Him and believe what I need to believe and practice it.
Can God save everyone? Does He save everyone that surrenders to Him? Did Christ die for me, too?

They beat around the bush and send me a link? I don't want a link I want them to tell me that if they are unable to lie to them that you'd have to tell them that you don't know if they are chosen...and that no God doesn't save everyone...you have to be preselected.

Exactly how do you witness to someone like that?

I can see some of it, like where God says I knew you before the foundation of the world, wasn't He talking to a prophet in the OT, and God said He chose Him to be a prophet. Just like Jesus elected the disciples, just like Paul addressing the elect which were church officials in His letters.
Just like God didn't elect me to be a preacher, He did call or elect others to be in 'office' at the church.

My daughter and my sister and I are all flipping out over this. None of the links really make a lot of sense to me. I mean if I didn't believe differently, I might think that was the right way to believe. I'm so convicted over this and I don't know what to do but pray.

We aren't having a knock down drag out over it, but the boys are acting like they've stumbled across some kind of new understanding and I've read up on it on line and it's like a new fad in some churches to study/believe this.
I know it's hundreds of years old, does that mean it's right?

I need for y'all to pray for me for some peace about this. My brother has 9 children 12 and younger, and I don't know if this is a good thing to teach them or not.

I ask my brother if He loved the world enough to send his only son to the cross.(8 girls, 1 boy) And of course He said no and then I said how could a God that loves us so much to let His Son only die for part of us, and divide the rest of His children up and send some to be saved and some to be lost. I ask my brother could he, as a father, pick and choose which of his children he'd let go to hades. Of course he said no, but then he said but he didn't know that one could grow up to be a thief and one a liar and one a killer, and then I said but is that in their father's (earthly father) will to do that? And I said how could our Father give His Son but still let the some of us go to hades.

So what I believe what I believe because I was raised that way and I'm wrong and I may not be saved because I wasn't chosen, I'm just a wanna be....which of course I know that I'm saved by the Holy Spirit.

This is really messing my head up, i've been rebuking demons everyday. I gotta do something else like feed some hungry children, or help the girl next door because her 3mo baby died, but I can't I gotta worry about this.

By the way my son in law and daughter and their children go to a huge Baptist Church that I go to sometimes, too. Not as 'spiritual' as our church in Asheville, but the pastor is resigning and I'm wondering if the church is being divided up by this doctrine.

I know God knows who and who will not be saved, but it's hard for me to think that someone I love wasn't chosen even before the foundation of the world to not be saved.

Lord give me grace, mercy and understanding about the TULIP and how to address it.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Remember when I said I was gonna pull my hair out over this issue, well I'm bald on one side....hahahahahahaha.
> 
> I found out about 2 weeks ago that my youngest brother, about 44, left the family church and joined another church because he now believes in the elect thing.
> 
> That God chose us to be saved before we were born.
> 
> When I ask him or my son in law any questions all they do is send me a link from someone that I've never heard of, except for Spurgeon.
> 
> All I ask is, what will you say to someone who asks you these questions?
> 
> Can God save me? I've been so evil?
> Will God save me, if I come to an understanding with Him and believe what I need to believe and practice it.
> Can God save everyone? Does He save everyone that surrenders to Him? Did Christ die for me, too?
> 
> They beat around the bush and send me a link? I don't want a link I want them to tell me that if they are unable to lie to them that you'd have to tell them that you don't know if they are chosen...and that no God doesn't save everyone...you have to be preselected.
> 
> Exactly how do you witness to someone like that?
> 
> I can see some of it, like where God says I knew you before the foundation of the world, wasn't He talking to a prophet in the OT, and God said He chose Him to be a prophet. Just like Jesus elected the disciples, just like Paul addressing the elect which were church officials in His letters.
> Just like God didn't elect me to be a preacher, He did call or elect others to be in 'office' at the church.
> 
> My daughter and my sister and I are all flipping out over this. None of the links really make a lot of sense to me. I mean if I didn't believe differently, I might think that was the right way to believe. I'm so convicted over this and I don't know what to do but pray.
> 
> We aren't having a knock down drag out over it, but the boys are acting like they've stumbled across some kind of new understanding and I've read up on it on line and it's like a new fad in some churches to study/believe this.
> I know it's hundreds of years old, does that mean it's right?
> 
> I need for y'all to pray for me for some peace about this. My brother has 9 children 12 and younger, and I don't know if this is a good thing to teach them or not.
> 
> I ask my brother if He loved the world enough to send his only son to the cross.(8 girls, 1 boy) And of course He said no and then I said how could a God that loves us so much to let His Son only die for part of us, and divide the rest of His children up and send some to be saved and some to be lost. I ask my brother could he, as a father, pick and choose which of his children he'd let go to hades. Of course he said no, but then he said but he didn't know that one could grow up to be a thief and one a liar and one a killer, and then I said but is that in their father's (earthly father) will to do that? And I said how could our Father give His Son but still let the some of us go to hades.
> 
> So what I believe what I believe because I was raised that way and I'm wrong and I may not be saved because I wasn't chosen, I'm just a wanna be....which of course I know that I'm saved by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> This is really messing my head up, i've been rebuking demons everyday. I gotta do something else like feed some hungry children, or help the girl next door because her 3mo baby died, but I can't I gotta worry about this.
> 
> By the way my son in law and daughter and their children go to a huge Baptist Church that I go to sometimes, too. Not as 'spiritual' as our church in Asheville, but the pastor is resigning and I'm wondering if the church is being divided up by this doctrine.
> 
> I know God knows who and who will not be saved, but it's hard for me to think that someone I love wasn't chosen even before the foundation of the world to not be saved.
> 
> Lord give me grace, mercy and understanding about the TULIP and how to address it.



If you keep pullin your hair out you gonna have to get a wig.
And I'm sorry to here about your neighbor's little girl passing away.  That's just terrible.
According to your brother, that little girl might go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----!!!  It's just not so Annie.

You just keep praying for them, be an example when you can, and enjoy your life in Christ.
You need to go visit your neighbor.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> If you keep pullin your hair out you gonna have to get a wig.
> And I'm sorry to here about your neighbor's little girl passing away.  That's just terrible.
> According to your brother, that little girl might go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----!!!  It's just not so Annie.
> 
> You just keep praying for them, be an example when you can, and enjoy your life in Christ.
> You need to go visit your neighbor.



Thank you!

Pray for me. Obviously I have not found the wisdom I need to shed some light on the subject for them or myself. My bro lives about 160 miles from here so it's not like I can duct tape him to chair (which I'd like to) and quiz him....and maybe even smack him around a little bit,.....lol...only cuz I can. lol.

All their children are homeschooled, too, which I think is awesome. I think we should train our children in the way they should go plus readin' writin' and 'rithmetic. They are the softest spoken children and so sweet and cute and their mom is doing a great job at home in the little classroom they have set up. It's really awesome. Then something happened and I don't know how to remedy it.

I guess I'll just pray for peace about it. It's not salvation rendering either way, but it sure sticks a thorn in what I believe witnessing should be....whosoever.


----------



## mtnwoman

I don't think I mentioned this, but I guess what bothers me the most is that my 10yr old granddaughter just started going to the church school. And my daughter was all upset because she realizes, after church today, the entire church, at least all of her sunday school classe believes in the tulip, all five points of calvinism. They've paid $5000 for her to attend the school. The younger granddaughter wasn't smart enough to get in....that's nice. But probably that's a blessing now.


----------



## THREEJAYS

JB0704 said:


> But the governor did not make the conditions or the rules under which the crime was committed, nor did he deliver the death sentence.  Besides, Jesus made a way for _everybody_ to be pardoned because he is more "just" than the governor.  The statement was:
> 
> 
> 
> I (and everybody else) deserve just as much a chance at it as you do, thanks goes to Jesus (John 3:17).  I wonder how many people who believe in predestination think they are not "the elect," but one of the unfortunate condemned.[  I wonder if it would change a personperspective to think so.[/'s QUOTE][/COLOR]
> 
> all I've met believe they are part of the elect.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If I could talk to your son in law I would share with him some of the good advice that I have gotten here from Christians.  One of the most important pieces of advice that I was given was that when it comes down to the things in the Bible that don't make any sense, one should stop trying to make it make sense.
> 
> If you want to stay strong in your faith, when you come across a question that you just can't seem to answer in a rational way then stop asking it.  If it keeps bugging you then it's probably the Devil trying to shake your faith.
> 
> Best of luck to you all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agree mostly, Some things aren't meant for us to fully understand,although I don't fully understand why.
Click to expand...


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I know I elected myself to follow Jesus.



So you, by your choice, gave efficacy to the work of Christ?

According to the Book of God, those who believe that salvation is accomplished by the will of man are not worshippers of God, but will-worshippers.
(Colossians 2:23)


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> So you, by your choice, gave efficacy to the work of Christ? *Did I say that or imply that somewhere?*
> 
> According to the Book of God, those who believe that salvation is accomplished by the will of man are not worshippers of God, but will-worshippers. *I didn't say that either. Nothing I could do to save myself, not even by works, not even my following instruction of the great commission, nothing can save me that I do. Jesus knocks and I let Him in...all I did was say yes, He didn't force the door open, did He? He offered me salvation and I accepted it. *
> (Colossians 2:23)



So this also fits into the willworshippers, because we opted to believeth?

John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Are you saying we don't have to accept? because if we do that, it is because of our will then, that we are saved? so we really aren't saved. We have to be preselected, but only some of us, the rest are not selected and put in the lost forever line? and nothing we can do to change it, even if we wanted to?

When an unsaved person asks you if it's possible for you to explain to them how to be saved.....you tell them there's nothing they can do if they aren't prechosen?


----------



## THREEJAYS

mtnwoman said:


> So this also fits into the willworshippers, because we opted to believeth?
> 
> John 3:16
> King James Version (KJV)
> 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 
> Are you saying we don't have to accept? because if we do that, it is because of our will then, that we are saved? so we really aren't saved. We have to be preselected, but only some of us, the rest are not selected and put in the lost forever line? and nothing we can do to change it, even if we wanted to?
> 
> When an unsaved person asks you if it's possible for you to explain to them how to be saved.....you tell them there's nothing they can do if they aren't prechosen?



Sounds like some pretty good questions to me.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Are you saying we don't have to accept?



I am saying you are unable to accept. You are dead. All you can do is respond. 



mtnwoman said:


> because if we do that, it is because of our will then, that we are saved? so we really aren't saved.



Yes. You are basing salvation on a decision or a choice and without that, Christ finished work on the cross is for naught.




mtnwoman said:


> We have to be preselected, but only some of us, the rest are not selected and put in the lost forever line? and nothing we can do to change it, even if we wanted to?



Yes. Election is God's sovereign, eternal choice and determination to save some. It is a free, unconditional, irreversible act of God's sovereign grace, by which the everlasting salvation of all the chosen was secured from eternity (Psalm 65:4, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:3-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).



mtnwoman said:


> When an unsaved person asks you if it's possible for you to explain to them how to be saved.....you tell them there's nothing they can do if they aren't prechosen?



I tell them there is nothing they can do. (It's not my job to go around saving people. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.)


----------



## Ronnie T

Be careful, someone might start posting those verses that speak of one having to "accept" that which God has made available to everyone!


----------



## Michael F. Gray

mtnwoman I enjoy reading and responding to your comments and questions. This time I'll abstain. I believe without intending to do so, you've posed a question which has been the subject of centuries of theological debate between those who follow the teachings of Calvin as opposed to those of the Armmeinian persuassion. Wish I was sitting under a shade tree with you, and could briefly lay out the tenants of each. The feelings ignited by such open discussians lead to the throwing of bricks in New Durham, New Hampshire by one faction in the direction of folks who believed differantly in the mid 1700's. I have had occasion to study, and to some degree teach on the matter. I've learned to choose my audiance carefully. May the Lord Bless you, I love your inquisitive mind.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I am saying you are unable to accept. You are dead. All you can do is respond. *So responding isn't an action on your part? Respond is a verb, that is an action.  When He offered me salvation I said yes, by doing that I did something, I spoke the word yes. That's all I had to do. I could've responded by saying no, would I still be saved because I responded? That's all I had to do was say yes....say is a verb, an action. According to your previous post, it isn't necessary for us to act, which is to speak/respond/accept  openly or in our heart or in our mind, because doing so would be contributing to our salvation?...which we cannot do. Now if that ain't confusing.*
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. You are basing salvation on a decision or a choice and without that, Christ finished work on the cross is for naught.*The Bible says that Christ died for everyone, everyone who accepts....accepting is an action on our part.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Election is God's sovereign, eternal choice and determination to save some. It is a free, unconditional, irreversible act of God's sovereign grace, by which the everlasting salvation of all the chosen was secured from eternity (Psalm 65:4, John 15:16, Ephesians 1:3-6, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14). *So grafting the gentiles into the vine was not what God intended? The Jews are God's chosen.
> People in the OT didn't have a choice, God snatched them up and said you're gonna do this or float in a whale, etc. Why did we need Jesus if we were already preselected and chosen? Jesus didn't die for our sins, our sins were already forgiven before the foundation of the world, when we were put in the elected line to go to heaven? What did Jesus die for then if we were already saved? *
> 
> 
> 
> I tell them there is nothing they can do. (It's not my job to go around saving people. That is the work of the Holy Spirit.)



*So you don't do anything about the great commission? That also is in the Bible ya know. You just pick out elect and fly with it, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, they too believe they are the only ones to be saved.... but they do work at the great commission as commanded.

*


----------



## mtnwoman

Sorry, I didn't get to edit the above post, I could feel the fiery darts blasting past my head...lol and right as I posted it, my computer shut down. So I'm glad it didn't get lost.


----------



## mtnwoman

Michael F. Gray said:


> mtnwoman I enjoy reading and responding to your comments and questions. This time I'll abstain. I believe without intending to do so, you've posed a question which has been the subject of centuries of theological debate between those who follow the teachings of Calvin as opposed to those of the Armmeinian persuassion. Wish I was sitting under a shade tree with you, and could briefly lay out the tenants of each. The feelings ignited by such open discussians lead to the throwing of bricks in New Durham, New Hampshire by one faction in the direction of folks who believed differantly in the mid 1700's. I have had occasion to study, and to some degree teach on the matter. I've learned to choose my audiance carefully. May the Lord Bless you, I love your inquisitive mind.



Thanks for your kind post. I pretty much believe parts of both armmenianism and calvinism as explained in the umpteen links I've been sent, since nobody can really explain anything without sending a link.

 Mostly I'm a John 3:16 Christian.

The teacher at church that was teaching this told my daughter she was a universalist...say what? Don't they believe everyone will go to heaven? My daughter nor I believe that. It's a good thing I wasn't there, I haven't been going during this teaching.
My daughter is a NT believer, too, especially John 3:16. 

We both believe that God knows who will and who will not be saved. But we believe that we are all given a choice. We are saved by mercy, grace, and the cleansing blood on the cross that washes our sins away, so that we are like spotless children to God. Some people will respond yes to that, or accept that as being the truth as outlined in John 3:16.....whosever. There is nothing else we can do, not works, not tithing, nothing else will get us to heaven except to believe that Christ is who He says He is. There's that darn verb, believe, again...lol

Paul is talking to other saved people when he says 'we'. He is talking to the God elected church leaders. At that time there weren't that many people saved....none or very few gentiles, those adopted into the vine.  Didn't God tell Paul to go talk to them that they were not dirty any more? 

Anyway, I'm gettin' carried away again.
I'm having a hard time with this one. I never knew God as a prejudiced God, that would pick and choose who He wanted, I thought He was not a respecter of persons, either. Obviously by this teaching He is. He picks His favs and lets the others burn for eternity. I can't get past that, I just can't.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> So responding isn't an action on your part?



It is! A response to life as with Lazarus.



mtnwoman said:


> The Bible says that Christ died for everyone



If Christ died for everyone, then everyone will be just fine.



mtnwoman said:


> everyone who accepts



 Dead men can't do anything.



mtnwoman said:


> So you don't do anything about the great commission?



My Lord forbids me to cast pearls before swine, give what is holy to dogs. Now show me a sinner and I can rejoice with them in the glorious good news.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> It is! A response to life as with Lazarus. *I understand that point of view, but then what to do with John 3:16, whosever believes?? Wasn't Lazurus just a precurser to Christ and the power of resurrection by God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. Lazurus was before the crusifixtion.*
> 
> 
> 
> If Christ died for everyone, then everyone will be just fine.Only the ones that believe will be fine.No where have I said everyone will be fine regardless. The bible says that God doesn't want anyone to perish, even though they will if they don't believe, can we throw that scripture out, too?[/B]
> 
> 
> 
> Dead men can't do anything. *Lazurus was dead, he got up and did something, he walked out of the darkness, just like we do when Christ calls us to come. Everyone doesn't hear Christ....let he who has ears, throw that away?*
> 
> 
> 
> My Lord forbids me to cast pearls before swine, give what is holy to dogs. Now show me a sinner and I can rejoice with them in the glorious good news.*We are all sinners, what about the unsaved, you just gonna let them be lost? Doesn't Christ tell us to preach the gospel or can we throw that out too and just watch football? we're saved no matter what if we're chosen, we don't have to nor can we do anything. *



So this is what reformation of the catholic and protestant church was all about, picking and choosing what so and so wanted to leave in and add to and what so and so else wanted to pitch out, too.

I'm saved because Jesus called my name and I came forth, cluelessly, helplessly, like a lost sheep, out of a dark, dead, tomb, not from anything of my own. Christ rose from the dead, and thru Christ I rose from the dead. He called and I did something, I responded, that is an action. Even Lazurus had to walk out of the tomb, he did something. He didn't just poof in front of Jesus and Mary, he had to obey Christs' command to come forth.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> My Lord forbids me to cast pearls before swine, give what is holy to dogs. Now show me a sinner and I can rejoice with them in the glorious good news.



Swine, would include everyone that isn't saved? or is swine the people that know about Christ, but refuse to follow and try to trick and trip you up? In other words you don't keep on chasing them, just like Christ doesn't always come a knockin', but He does knock and He Himself said to us that if we open the door (action) He will come in and sup with us. We don't have to open the door, therefore obviously we have a choice. We can respond/open/address/choose to open the door to Him...or we can turn a deaf ear.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I understand that point of view






mtnwoman said:


> Lazurus was dead, he got up and did something



I think you missed my point completely. Lazarus was dead, he was incapable of doing anything. He was able to respond only after he was made alive. Lazarus did not choose or will himself to live. He was the object of divine intervention.

It is the same with a spiritually dead man. That is what I meant by "dead men can't do anything". If we don't agree on that principal, nothing else will make sense.

What prompted me to respond to your post was "I know I elected myself to follow Jesus". Lazarus did not elect himself to live. Lazarus responded only after life was bestowed.


----------



## Ronnie T

Well done Mtnwoman.
Easily understood.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> What prompted me to respond to your post was "I know I elected myself to follow Jesus". Lazarus did not elect himself to live. Lazarus responded only after life was bestowed.



But, he was dead, literally.  Couldn't we all agree that spiritually dead, and actually dead are two different things? Any comparison to lazarus would have to be metaphorical.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> But, he was dead, literally.  Couldn't we all agree that spiritually dead, and actually dead are two different things?



Yes, you can be physically alive and spiritually dead.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Corinthians 2:14

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Ephesians 2:1


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.1 Corinthians 2:14
> 
> And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Ephesians 2:1



But isn't the natural man a reference to our sin nature?  Being dead, meaning spiritually dead?


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> But isn't the natural man a reference to our sin nature?  Being dead, meaning spiritually dead?



Yes.

Good point.

I was spiritually dead and did not respond to Christ as He knocked on my heart for 30 yrs. Oh I heard Him alright, I just went farther and farther away like adam and eve, to hide. Then one morning I awoke and said God help me, I can't do this any more....thank God Jesus was still there, and I let Him in and we have dined ever since. I've been tackled and overcome by the Holy Ghost ever since, too. Glory Hallelujah!!!!

Let me add, Jesus gave me the bread of life and I took it and ate it, I didn't have to, I wanted/chose/elected/opted/responded to the offer.....I couldn't give myself the bread of life, neither did I want to perish for my own sins, I accepted Christ's offer of eternal life, to take up my staff and follow Him.


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> But, he was dead, literally.  Couldn't we all agree that spiritually dead, and actually dead are two different things? Any comparison to lazarus would have to be metaphorical.



Lazarus, along with Pharoah and Esau and a few scriptures in the old and new testament, is used quite often in defense of this doctrine. Leaving everything out that Jesus actually said Himself, and really God, too.

When it is said that God hated Esau, Pharoah and hardened their hearts or whatever the scripture is supposedly saying referring to election....hate only means to love less. God tried thru Moses to save the Pharoah, the pharoah's heart was hardened to God already and our all knowing God knew he would never soften his heart to Him....so He let him (pharoah) go.

Can God control what He chooses, ie Jonah, of course He can....then the saved should be perfect as soon as they are saved, we don't have to work at it based on our own free will, as we don't have any free will according to this doctrine. We'd become saved and never sin again, if God wanted to be in full control of our will.  I don't see anyway around my free will to do good along with my sinning being my free will and not God's.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Lazarus, along with Pharoah and Esau and a few scriptures in the old and new testament, is used quite often in defense of this doctrine. Leaving everything out that Jesus actually said Himself, and really God, too.
> 
> When it is said that God hated Esau, Pharoah and hardened their hearts or whatever the scripture is supposedly saying referring to election....hate only means to love less. God tried thru Moses to save the Pharoah, the pharoah's heart was hardened to God already and our all knowing God knew he would never soften his heart to Him....so He let him (pharoah) go.
> 
> Can God control what He chooses, ie Jonah, of course He can....then the saved should be perfect as soon as they are saved, we don't have to work at it based on our own free will, as we don't have any free will according to this doctrine. We'd become saved and never sin again, if God wanted to be in full control of our will.  I don't see anyway around my free will to do good along with my sinning being my free will and not God's.



There's a whole thread about this.  

_Exodus 4:21
    And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 7:3
 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.

Exodus 10:1
    And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:

Exodus 10:20
 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.

Exodus 11:10
    And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:4
 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.

Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel

Exodus 14:17
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. _

Sounds to me like Pharaoh was a patsy, but I don't have the magic discerning power.  Stop trying to make it make sense. Trust and OBEY.  Why does it bother you so much that it has to make sense?  Quit scratching that itch.  It will only make life hard for you.

Maybe I'm referencing the wrong version of the Bible.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> There's a whole thread about this.
> 
> _Exodus 4:21
> And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
> 
> Exodus 7:3
> And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
> 
> Exodus 7:13
> And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
> 
> Exodus 9:12
> And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
> 
> Exodus 10:1
> And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
> 
> Exodus 10:20
> But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
> 
> Exodus 10:27
> But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
> 
> Exodus 11:10
> And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
> 
> Exodus 14:4
> And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.
> 
> Exodus 14:8
> And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel
> 
> Exodus 14:17
> I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour. _
> 
> Sounds to me like Pharaoh was a patsy, but I don't have the magic discerning power.  Stop trying to make it make sense. Trust and OBEY.



Thanks for posting all that, I think Judas was a patsy, too, and not working with his own will. But that's just my opinion and not worth debating...I don't think anyone can explain about Judas.
Nor God taking over the pharoah's will, changing his mind on letting the Jews go. In the beginning pharoah was all for  letting the Jews go, God changed that, because He could. That doesn't mean God changes everyone's will. I cannot compare myself to a pharoah, or a hitler, or a kennedy, or a moses, or even a jonah. God controls what He wants to. I still believe in the NT after the resurrection, that we have free will to chose or turn away from God.

Otherwise we are ALL puppets....I've got an attitude about that process, I'm sure you understand that. Many nonbelievers believe we are just puppets anyway.  And I know for a fact I still have free will, it's not God's will for me to sin, but guess what? I still sin...no matter how hard I try...I still do.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Maybe I'm referencing the wrong version of the Bible.



No darlin', that sounds like KJV, that's the right version 

JMHO


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Lazarus, along with Pharoah and Esau and a few scriptures in the old and new testament, is used quite often in defense of this doctrine. Leaving everything out that Jesus actually said Himself, and really God, too.



Are you serious? If so, let me throw a couple red letter verses your way in order to expose the absurdity of that statement.

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. John 17:9

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37



mtnwoman said:


> hate only means to love less.



That doesn't work at all.


----------



## Ronnie T

*Who are the elect????  The Predestined?*

Mountainwoman, here's the answer.  Clear, simple.

Ephesians 2.......  tells of two categories of people who are the predestined.

Now Annie, you got to read every single word of the chapter to get the full message.
At the end of it you'll see who the elect, predestined are.
(1st).  The Jew, the people of Israel.
(2nd).  Any and all of the Gentiles who trust in the blood of Jesus.

1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them. 
 11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, and are of God’s household, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, is growing into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Thanks for posting all that, I think Judas was a patsy, too, and not working with his own will. But that's just my opinion and not worth debating...I don't think anyone can explain about Judas.
> Nor God taking over the pharoah's will, changing his mind on letting the Jews go. In the beginning pharoah was all for  letting the Jews go, God changed that, because He could. That doesn't mean God changes everyone's will. I cannot compare myself to a pharoah, or a hitler, or a kennedy, or a moses, or even a jonah. God controls what He wants to. I still believe in the NT after the resurrection, that we have free will to chose or turn away from God.
> 
> Otherwise we are ALL puppets....I've got an attitude about that process, I'm sure you understand that. Many nonbelievers believe we are just puppets anyway.  And I know for a fact I still have free will, it's not God's will for me to sin, but guess what? I still sin...no matter how hard I try...I still do.




Is it OK with you, I mean, does it seem "right" to you if _anybody_ is used as a puppet?


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Is it OK with you, I mean, does it seem "right" to you if _anybody_ is used as a puppet?



I am perfectly ok with it. If this somehow in your mind makes God out to be a monster, get ready to meet a monster! That he chose to make vessels of mercy along with vessels of wrath is comforting.

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Romans 9:20,21


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> I am perfectly ok with it. If this somehow in your mind makes God out to be a monster, get ready to meet a monster! That he chose to make vessels of mercy along with vessels of wrath is comforting.
> 
> Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
> 
> Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Romans 9:20,21




Born to suffer.........that's great.


----------



## mtnwoman

On the word hate.....so what is being said here? Really? we are to hate our mother and father, isn't there  a 10 commandment, (we can throw out) on how to treat our mother and father. Or do you think it means to put Jesus first and love less the rest of the world including our family. Surely He's not calling us to hate, is He?


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Born to suffer.........that's great.



For real! That's what makes people flock to the church who are not saved, especially the God of the OT before we had a new convenant with Him. 

Come here, we have some love for ya...then


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Is it OK with you, I mean, does it seem "right" to you if _anybody_ is used as a puppet?



Well it's not exactly ok with me,but that's why I ran far far away from the God of the OT, because it seemed as though there was nothing but killing and hating, testing and sorrow coming from Him.  As I got older I began to understand why God did some of the things He did in the OT, the OT was based on works....and nobody could meet the 'goal'.  So God elected/selected/chose people that He could use for His purpose.  Moses wasn't always aware of the God of Abraham, God had to make Himself known to Moses. I believe Moses was a moon worshipper, I think. God changed that and He knew that Moses was His man. Since God knows everything, He knew that.  

God found or gave us an easier way, by mercy and grace to opt into His plan of salvation thru Jesus Christ. Jesus died because God so loved the world, not just the elect, and chooses for everyone to be saved.  Anyone, whosoever comes to Christ and believes and follows Christ's teaching will be saved. 

If I wasn't working on my own will to receive the grace and mercy extended to me by Christ, wouldn't God choose for me to be perfect, He certainly doesn't will for us to sin, that we do on our own free will. I know, I've said that before.


----------



## mtnwoman

Thank you Ronnie. I sent that entire thing to my daughter. 

Exactly as I believe it to be.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> So God elected/selected/chose people that He could use for His purpose. Moses wasn't always aware of the God of Abraham, God had to make Himself known to Moses. I believe Moses was a moon worshipper, I think. God changed that and He knew that Moses was His man.



Now you are starting to sound like a Calvinist. 



mtnwoman said:


> God found or gave us an easier way, by mercy and grace to opt into His plan of salvation thru Jesus Christ.



No No No, I lost you...lol

The way never changed!




mtnwoman said:


> Jesus died because God so loved the world, not just the elect, and chooses for everyone to be saved.



Well, the Jesus you speak of failed in his endeavor. If He shed his blood for everybody, satisfied the wrath of God for everybody, and some perish yet in their sin, he failed. He was not an acceptable sacrifice if God yet looks to man for something more!

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29


mtnwoman, I appreciate your honesty and I do not doubt your passion, but I fear there is a great gulf divide between us that must not, can not ever be bridged.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Now you are starting to sound like a Calvinist.
> 
> 
> 
> No No No, I lost you...lol
> 
> The way never changed!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, the Jesus you speak of failed in his endeavor. If He shed his blood for everybody, satisfied the wrath of God for everybody, and some perish yet in their sin, he failed. He was not an acceptable sacrifice if God yet looks to man for something more!*If God chooses for no one to perish, but yet He chooses some to be lost forever then the Jesus you speak of didn't die for everyone as God states. Y'all can repeat over and over what Paul said, but Paul is not God, and I choose to take what God said...whosoever.*
> 
> Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? Hebrews 10:29
> 
> 
> mtnwoman, I appreciate your honesty and I do not doubt your passion, but I fear there is a great gulf divide between us that must not, can not ever be bridged.


 I'm sure I'll never cross that bridge.....perhaps if I had been raised on believing that I had to be special/chosen by God to be forgiven by the blood then I might have that mindset. But I accepted Christ when I was a low down dirty dog believing that He would save me and that He was not a respecter of persons.

I do believe in part of calvinism as well as arminienism, but actually I don't have to accept either, as I am a John 3:16 Christian and always have been and always will be, as that was the voice of God that said that..accept my Son~


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> The way never changed!



To God nothing changed, but to man things changed as far as the way we think/thought about things. Ie Paul calling gentiles dirty....Jesus wasn't only for the Jews, He was for the Gentiles, too...which is everyone else except for the Jews.

You can't say that you are saved if you live by OT as the Jews were expected to do in the OT and turn around and say, but now we have grace. That's a huge change, for man.

And killing lambs for atonement, each individual had to do that, not a selected few. Now we have Jesus as our Lamb for atonement. God said whosoever believeth that....Jew, Gentile, black, white, green, yellow, red, will be saved and whosoever doesn't won't be saved.

No change? did saving grace start in Gen,Ex,Lev? It did in God's mind. But the Jews obeyed by works.

I understand God's plan never changed to Him....even getting the Jews to see Gentiles as equals was a change as far as the Gentiles were concerned, otherwise only the chosen/Jews would be brought to salvation Paul believed that at one point...yet we were grafted into the vine by grace, and mercy.

Jesus says His yoke is light, compared to the Rabbi's in the OT, who put on their students heavy yokes.....that's change, at least to us.

I do believe that God can pick /choose who He wants for anything. I believe He picked and chose Moses, whether Moses wanted to or not, God chose Him, along with Jonah, who probably didn't chose on His own to take a whale ride.
The people that God did not like in the OT, were people that wouldn't obey Him...so they had free will not to obey. And if God wanted to pluck a shepard boy out of the pasture to be king He could and did. Those are the people that I consider chosen, perhaps, beyond their will and/or because they loved/feared God.

Did David have free will to kill someone? Do you think that was in God's will for David to commit murder? If so we can take out 'thou shalt not kill' as a commandment, because God didn't really mean it.

Preachers, teachers as those that Paul was talking to I'm sure were chosen by God as God plucked Paul out of muck and mire, also. 

Anyway.....like I said if I didn't already have all that information, I maybe could be persuaded that we are preselected/elected, and not saved by grace extended to all but saved by election. I could let go of my long lengthy testimony of how bad I use to be and how God picked me up and changed me, and I let Him, because I was as low as I could go...and the process I went thru. So when I tell young troubled girls that Jesus loves them and if you accept Him, He can change you, too, or I can tell them that maybe, if you're chosen, you can go to heaven, because God picked and chose who He wanted, you have no choice in it...so good luck.  There is absolutely no reason to preach the gospel as no one has a choice, you're chosen or not and will be saved if you're chosen, you don't need to hear anything or do anything.....luck of the draw.

So I can't change my witnessing, testimony, of God's mercy and grace extended to me, because I know what happened to me. He knocks on every heart, but every heart does not harken, that will never change for me, else I was saved on a false pretense. And I want everyone to know that my Jesus can be their Jesus, too, if they let Him. And when they elect to do so, they become one of God's elect. Not the same elect the JW's believe in, the special ones, but everyone(whosoever) was called upon to receive and accepted/elected the blood drenched saving grace of our Father by the sacrifice of His lamb, Jesus.

Oh and once again, I will say that I do know that God knows who and who will not be saved...but that He chooses for no man to perish.

And I don't have to be preselected to produce fruit....we'll know each other by our fruit, too, no doubting in that.


----------



## The Foreigner

mtnwoman said:


> I'm sure I'll never cross that bridge.....perhaps if I had been raised on believing that I had to be special/chosen by God to be forgiven by the blood then I might have that mindset. But I accepted Christ when I was a low down dirty dog believing that He would save me and that He was not a respecter of persons.
> 
> I do believe in part of calvinism as well as arminienism, but actually I don't have to accept either, as I am a John 3:16 Christian and always have been and always will be, as that was the voice of God that said that..accept my Son~



mtnwoman

You've misunderstood the biblical position: no-one is chosen because they are special or have some good attributes that God could use.  No the choosing makes the specialness (though that's not really a biblical concept) - that's why grace is SO SO SO important to some calvinists, it's because they weren't special, were dead in trespasses and sins, that grace has overcome those huge obstacles.  

That's why grace is grace and not works or reward - because salvation is undeserved.

Peace.


----------



## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> mtnwoman
> 
> You've misunderstood the biblical position: no-one is chosen because they are special or have some good attributes that God could use.  No the choosing makes the specialness (though that's not really a biblical concept) - that's why grace is SO SO SO important to some calvinists, it's because they weren't special, were dead in trespasses and sins, that grace has overcome those huge obstacles.
> 
> That's why grace is grace and not works or reward - because salvation is undeserved.
> 
> Peace.



I realize what you're saying about being special.

But if everyone is dead in trespasses and the specialness of being chosen is because of grace, but that grace is not extended to everyone, makes God a respecter of persons, and I don't believe that.

And to an unsaved person, telling them that I've been chosen and I'm saved, not sure you can be, but let me preach the gospel to you and if you might be chosen, then you'll know.....that concept is what many unsaved people hold against us and our God, thinking we are chosen/elected by God, but not all are.

The Jews are God's chosen people....will they all be saved? Many of them will. Maybe all, I don't know. I know of 2 who are not even practicing Jews that think because they are chosen they are going to heaven no matter what and maybe they are right, according to you. So I don't need to give them anything better.
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the elect. The tulip believe they are the elect. That was the reason for my question in the original post.

I believe those that believe Christ's/God's word to be true, that Jesus died for our sins, become the elect.  

I am grateful for grace, and mercy and forgiveness. However it is the Jesus in me that extends mercy and grace and forgiveness to others because me, myself and I am not always capable of those things. I have to pray alot about those things, too. That to me proves that I have a free will, to not always obey, as I should.  If we didn't have free will wouldn't we live by and in God's perfect will all the time?

No doubt I was brought to salvation by grace, mercy and the blood of Christ. No doubt Jesus knocked on my heart many times, and God pricked my heart and I turned away. No doubt that God knew who and who wouldn't accept salvation and knows every hair on my head. But John 3:16 is stuck in my craw and will never let go. 


I do not wish to battle you or anyone else that posts here about this, because I don't believe that if we are already saved that this topic is not salvation rendering to us.  My witness here is for those who lurk and read but never post, that might want to know how to be saved....or to understand the Bible. I continue to post because I can't help myself and it's heavy on my heart everyday, that an unsaved person here, might think they don't have to do anything to be saved, either they are pre elected or they aren't and they'll find out sooner or later and never seek the word because of that. If I'm wrong it won't matter, but if i'm right and they think they are predestined to be saved or lost anyway, not a worry in the world and do nothing about seeking Christ, then they will be doomed if they just do nothing, I'm not taking that chance.

I'm not worried abit about us who are the elect now, I'm worried about those who are not at least not now.


----------



## Mako22

Calvin was a liar.


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## gemcgrew

Woodsman69 said:


> Calvin was a liar.



Of coarse he was. Along with every man since the fall. What is your point?


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## mtnwoman

If we are all liars we all have free will, to pick and choose what we want to do.

All men are fallible and capable of sin/mistakes.

How many religions/sects have been started by picking and choosing verses out of context to prove a point? and make a whole new doctrine out of it?

If I only lived in God's will, instead of my own, I wouldn't be a liar and I'd be perfect to boot.

I was born into sin, but I opted out, my free will won't let me be perfect, though. And even though I'm not perfect, I'm forgiven.

Any here who do not struggle to live within God's perfect will? Trust me I'd rather not live on my own free will, I don't do good. God tells me right from wrong, and I don't always choose the sinless thing to do.

example
God told us in the OT not to eat pork because it is unclean. Then in the NT He said it was ok. It is still unclean and not good for us, most of us know that. When we eat pork we are working on our own free will, not God's will for us.

The OT says to tithe, the NT says to give as you have been given. So not tithing is not a salvation rendering sin in the NT. However if we want the windows of heaven to open up and pour out a blessing that we cannot contain, then we can tithe. Which I try to. Even though sometimes it seems impossible and sometimes I don't. But when I do, God's promise never fails. I've got lots of witness on that one. And when I don't, I'm forgiven. 

Love you peeps!!
Ramblin Rose


----------



## The Foreigner

mntwoman

I hear you - in answer to your question about who are the elect? "None of us know" is the only answer.   

Concerning God being a respecter of persons - again I think you've misunderstood Paul in Romans 9-11. God is not a respecter of persons, you are quite right - that is why his choice is free and sovereign. He chose Jacob over Esau before they were born, not because of the good or ill one or other would do. That's the definition of "not being a respecter of persons" it seems to me. He chose Israel (nationally) not because they were great - he didn't respect military or political prowess. So election, which many passages directly state, is not God looking down the corridor of time to see who is useful - that would make God a respecter of persons - it's really quite apart from anything we are - because when we are saved we are all dead in trespasses and sins - again that's what Paul says.

Concerning the need for the gospel to be preached - that is the means God uses to call the elect to himself in time. So election, far from negating the need for the gospel to be preached, actually establishes it. It gives us a certainty that God has ordained some to faith, so we preach with hope (at least I do  ). 

I appreciate your calm tone - I'm not trying to battle either. 

Peace.


----------



## common man

Just to piggy back on what the foreigner is writing I think you really have to ask why I'm a Christian, many people are alot more smarter than I who will perish. What happened in your salvation? Does God draw a man to a certain point and then wait back for his response? That put's man in the driver's seat and turn Jesus death on the cross into not saving one single human being because it first has to be activated by that person's response. Then if you are smart enough, spiritual enough, you make the ultimate decision. I think the bible teaches that we are running towards destruction with no interest in God at all and he has to overcome that resistance and bring us to faith.

See Romans 8, Epesians chapter 1, Romans 9

Ya'll have  agood one.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Then if you are smart enough, spiritual enough, you make the ultimate decision.



I definintely wasn't smart enough or spiritiual enough at 12 years old to make an ultimate decision...nor do I claim to be now. He had been calling me for a while, I surrendered.

Even after baptism,working on my own will, I ran far away from Christ because I didn't feel like I could fullfill my commitment nor be good enough to go to church, be sinless, preach the gospel to people who were offended. If I was living in God's perfect will wouldn't I be doing that?   

He knocked on my heart for many years and me, myself and I working on my own free will didn't open the door. He didn't elect for me to open the door, He simply knocked. When I came to the realization that I wasn't doing very well on my own, 40 yrs later, I fell to my knees and ask Him to take over the driving....He'd always been there trying to drive, I just refused. Then I surrendered.

I find it hard for me to tell anyone that is unsaved that you have to be chosen to be saved and if you're not then you're not. I believe, again like I've said, that whosoever believeth (verb/action) in Him shall not perish. If we were predestined to be saved anyway, why would we have to believe that or even preach the gospel to the unsaved elect? Won't they be saved anyway somehow? They can't do anything and neither can we.  We could live like heck on earth and still be saved, 50/50 chance.  I believe that we have to accept Christ, just like the Christians in the first church, or even the thief on the cross....did he not do something? Did he act on something? He told (verb) Christ that he believed....he just didn't hang there and do nothing, he made a move, and action, he accepted and believed. 

So if we preach the gospel and someone who is of the elect but not yet saved, does not want to hear it, will they still be saved without surrendering? If they are of the elect, they are of the elect, God pricks their heart and they are good? not knowing a thing about the gospel?

You say we have to do nothing, then why preach the gospel? that's doing something ain't it? I'm saved/elected and stay inside my home and do nothing, since there's nothing I can do, and I'm still saved and everyone else of the elect will be saved, great commission or not.

If you are pre elected, and you do nothing about anything, don't go to church, don't believe John 3:16 then you're saved anyway.....I have a hard time believing that.

Were you saved believing that you were predestined to be saved? I wasn't, I believed that I had to accept and believe John 3:16, if that is incorrect, then I was saved based on a false belief, so maybe I'm not saved....I'm just a church going wanna be.


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## mtnwoman

I guess we can throw this out and listen only to what some believe Paul is saying..... this calls for action on our part...open the door and repent.
Revelation 3:19-21
King James Version (KJV)
 19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

 21To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


----------



## common man

I think the mystery lies in Phillipians 2 12-13. I will never be able to fully understand how that works but I just claim it as truth.

We preach the gospel because that is what God commands us to do.

The elect are going to hear the gospel and respond. See Romans 8:28-30. DOes it says some that were called were justified? No all those people who were called came to faith and were justified and were glorified.
Calvinists aren't saying we can't resist we are just saying you can only resist up till when God overcomes your resistance.
And of course  me or you are not saved by believing in predestination we are saved by the blood of Christ.

There is no difference in the process of faith and repentance if you believe in calvinism or not.

Calvinists believe the same as you do in that you have to respond to the gospel, we just feel the whole process is 100% God.


----------



## hummerpoo

mtnwoman said:


> I definintely wasn't smart enough or spiritiual enough at 12 years old to make an ultimate decision...nor do I claim to be now. He had been calling me for a while, I surrendered.
> 
> Even after baptism,working on my own will, I ran far away from Christ because I didn't feel like I could fullfill my commitment nor be good enough to go to church, be sinless, preach the gospel to people who were offended. If I was living in God's perfect will wouldn't I be doing that?
> 
> He knocked on my heart for many years and me, myself and I working on my own free will didn't open the door. He didn't elect for me to open the door, He simply knocked. When I came to the realization that I wasn't doing very well on my own, 40 yrs later, I fell to my knees and ask Him to take over the driving....He'd always been there trying to drive, I just refused. Then I surrendered.
> 
> I find our stories interesting:  You were 12, I was 13, you were pushed away by a false standard, I was drawn away by the world, you always felt Him there, I never knew He was there, you finally gave up, I was jerked back out of the world, I thought 25 yrs was a long time.
> 
> I find it hard for me to tell anyone that is unsaved that you have to be chosen to be saved and if you're not then you're not. I believe, again like I've said, that whosoever believeth (verb/action) in Him shall not perish. If we were predestined to be saved anyway, why would we have to believe that or even preach the gospel to the unsaved elect? Won't they be saved anyway somehow? They can't do anything and neither can we.  We could live like heck on earth and still be saved, 50/50 chance.  I believe that we have to accept Christ, just like the Christians in the first church, or even the thief on the cross....did he not do something? Did he act on something? He told (verb) Christ that he believed....he just didn't hang there and do nothing, he made a move, and action, he accepted and believed.
> 
> So if we preach the gospel and someone who is of the elect but not yet saved, does not want to hear it, will they still be saved without surrendering? If they are of the elect, they are of the elect, God pricks their heart and they are good? not knowing a thing about the gospel?
> 
> You say we have to do nothing, then why preach the gospel? that's doing something ain't it? I'm saved/elected and stay inside my home and do nothing, since there's nothing I can do, and I'm still saved and everyone else of the elect will be saved, great commission or not.
> 
> If you are pre elected, and you do nothing about anything, don't go to church, don't believe John 3:16 then you're saved anyway.....I have a hard time believing that.
> 
> Were you saved believing that you were predestined to be saved? I wasn't, I believed that I had to accept and believe John 3:16, if that is incorrect, then I was saved based on a false belief, so maybe I'm not saved....I'm just a church going wanna be.
> 
> And I see God’s sovereign work in all that you see as free will.



CM has done an excellent job of explaining things.

The way I see it, our stories did not become divergent after we were called in adolescence then converge many years later.  That is the “working out of our salvation”.  I don’t think you and I are capable of such things.  Jesus said He never lost a single one.  All those years that we spent away were not wasted, somehow they achieve God’s purpose, His glory.

As long as the energy we spend working out such questions as these is motivated by a desire to better serve our Lord, I'm confident that He will bless those efforts.

God Bless


----------



## The Foreigner

Mtnwoman ... cm is spot on. Election does not negate the need to repent and nand believe but establishes it. Man must believe, does he truly do that under election - yes. Just as pharoah was raised up for condemnation, but he still really and truly did not believe moses or God. Moreover neither did he want to believe. Faith, the gift of God is the instrument of his election not the enemy.
Peace.


----------



## gtparts

hummerpoo said:


> CM has done an excellent job of explaining things.
> 
> The way I see it, our stories did not become divergent after we were called in adolescence then converge many years later.  That is the “working out of our salvation”.  I don’t think you and I are capable of such things.  Jesus said He never lost a single one.  All those years that we spent away were not wasted, somehow they achieve God’s purpose, His glory.
> 
> As long as the energy we spend working out such questions as these is motivated by a desire to better serve our Lord, I'm confident that He will bless those efforts.
> 
> God Bless



Two thoughts ran through my mind as I read your comments and others. They seem to be connected. 

The story (each person's story) concludes with this question.

"What did you do with the Savor?"

Like the song, 





> It's not how you start, it's how you finish


, the reality is that we will all finish, but how we "ran" and our destination are the only things of eternal significance. Each of us starts at a different place, at different times. Our race is a solo race. God doesn't weigh us against our brothers and sisters, so we need not be concerned about any advantage or disadvantage we have faced. Do the best you can with God's Coaches, His Word and the Holy Spirit!

One Christian's journey may be through the worst this world has to offer. Another person's may seem to be unflawed, filled with joy and peace. We do not "run the same race", but we all contend for the same prize in Christ Jesus, to glorify Him with our lives. 
Barking about Calvinism or Arminianism  all you choose will not advance your position, how you finish. It is most often a prideful thing that causes us to lose sight of the finish line and hurt our relationships to other Christians. Let God have His way with each of us. We will be better for it!

I would advise all to let it go and get back in the race. The finish line is closer than we know.


----------



## The Foreigner

gtparts said:


> Two thoughts ran through my mind as I read your comments and others. They seem to be connected.
> 
> The story (each person's story) concludes with this question.
> 
> "What did you do with the Savor?"
> 
> Like the song, , the reality is that we will all finish, but how we "ran" and our destination are the only things of eternal significance. Each of us starts at a different place, at different times. Our race is a solo race. God doesn't weigh us against our brothers and sisters, so we need not be concerned about any advantage or disadvantage we have faced. Do the best you can with God's Coaches, His Word and the Holy Spirit!
> 
> One Christian's journey may be through the worst this world has to offer. Another person's may seem to be unflawed, filled with joy and peace. We do not "run the same race", but we all contend for the same prize in Christ Jesus, to glorify Him with our lives.
> Barking about Calvinism or Arminianism  all you choose will not advance your position, how you finish. It is most often a prideful thing that causes us to lose sight of the finish line and hurt our relationships to other Christians. Let God have His way with each of us. We will be better for it!
> 
> I would advise all to let it go and get back in the race. The finish line is closer than we know.



I'm not sure you've taken the sense of recent posts here friend, no-one I can see is barking about Calvinism or Amninianism. It's a pretty polite conversation actually.

And if you don't believe that election is an aid to "running the race" or however one wants to describe it, then you've not studied the doctrine much. It is a huge incentive, a huge foundation, upon which the Christian may stand firm. You see, if God has chosen, then salvation is secure and not dependent on our own strength or lack of strength. It is the basis for what our Lord says in John 6:39 "This is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing that he [the Father] has given me but raise it up on the last day". Left to our own _strength which one of us could survive? But standing on the work of God, we may all strive for the finishing line.  If that is what you mean by saying "let God have his way with each of us" I agree, but I fear you have misread the thread (at least recent parts of it) and also the significance of the biblical doctrine.

So election is hugely important in our walk as Christian. It comforts us along the way, through trouble and toil. Some may use election to act in a way Paul condemns "shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?" but as Paul says that's folly. The true child of God will always seek to do the will of his heavenly Father. 

No barking here ... only purring.

Peace._


----------



## Ronnie T

gtparts said:


> Two thoughts ran through my mind as I read your comments and others. They seem to be connected.
> 
> The story (each person's story) concludes with this question.
> 
> "What did you do with the Savor?"
> 
> Like the song, , the reality is that we will all finish, but how we "ran" and our destination are the only things of eternal significance. Each of us starts at a different place, at different times. Our race is a solo race. God doesn't weigh us against our brothers and sisters, so we need not be concerned about any advantage or disadvantage we have faced. Do the best you can with God's Coaches, His Word and the Holy Spirit!
> 
> One Christian's journey may be through the worst this world has to offer. Another person's may seem to be unflawed, filled with joy and peace. We do not "run the same race", but we all contend for the same prize in Christ Jesus, to glorify Him with our lives.
> Barking about Calvinism or Arminianism  all you choose will not advance your position, how you finish. It is most often a prideful thing that causes us to lose sight of the finish line and hurt our relationships to other Christians. Let God have His way with each of us. We will be better for it!
> 
> I would advise all to let it go and get back in the race. The finish line is closer than we know.



You're spot-on this morning brother.

We're often like Job's friends as they "figured" it all out.
Thank goodness Job just simply stayed in the race.


----------



## Israel

amen...the finish line is close, ain't it? 
I wonder if Stephen knew on the morning he awoke to that day in which a buncha folks were gonna take off their cloaks to free up their throwing arms was gonna be his "day in the sun?"

I can't help but wonder if there were days I wasn't able to see, simply because of my own timidity?

Good thing he works all things after the counsel of his own will, cause there's sure no hope if I think I do.


----------



## gtparts

*Response to post by The Foreigner, above*



The Foreigner said:


> (edited)
> If you don't believe that election is an aid to "running the race", then you've not studied the doctrine much.  If God has chosen, then salvation is secure and not dependent on our own strength, but I fear you've misread the thread (at least recent parts of it) and also the significance of the biblical doctrine.
> 
> No barking here .. only purring.
> 
> Peace.


 I make no defense of my barking comment. There are enough threads (some deleted) that show contentious spirits. But, I am truly glad that you are purring.
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Name="Intense Reference"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false"    UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/>   <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/>  </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style>  /* Style Definitions */  table.MsoNormalTable     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;     mso-style-noshow:yes;     mso-style-priority:99;     mso-style-qformat:yes;     mso-style-parent:"";     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;     mso-para-margin-top:0in;     mso-para-margin-right:0in;     mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;     mso-para-margin-left:0in;     line-height:115%;     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;     font-size:11.0pt;     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;} </style> <![endif]--> Calvin and Arminius viewed election with selective vision. They were looking at the same coin from different sides. I'll not go into a full explanation, but election and free will are both supported in Scripture. The beautiful conjunction of God's will for us and our will to submit is the essence of His salvation.  The New Covenant has two parties: the One who provides the salvation and the one who accedes to the terms.
The "race" is more about being the obedient servant, than expounding doctrine. Is doctrine important? No doubt! But, it is far more important to be about our Father's business than have Him observe us in debate while people are still dying in their sin.
We tend to think ourselves more righteous because we spend time in theological debate. So did the pharisees. 
You say,"So election is hugely important in our walk as Christian." 
So is our free will, that daily we rise to crucify the "old man" that remains. I seek to do no less, in His power, everyday. The Christian walk is about relationships and choices. God presents us with opportunity in both areas. What we do with them is the main focus of a servant's heart.


----------



## ambush80

It has come to my attention that I am not one of The Elect.  Like Pharaoh, my heart has been hardened.  I'm a patsy.  My life is a cautionary tale to be told to little children so that they will eat their vegetables and be glad for whatever they get.   

Me and Pharaoh; poor us.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> It has come to my attention that I am not one of The Elect.  Like Pharaoh, my heart has been hardened.  I'm a patsy.  My life is a cautionary tale to be told to little children so that they will eat their vegetables and be glad for whatever they get.
> 
> Me and Pharaoh; poor us.



I'm pretty sure you have a choice to be one of the elect. All our hearts are hardened at one point or another, but yet we have a choice to surrender, and we know that when we do, we will have joy and peace....even if we have to eat buttered spinich.....yuckity yuck yuck yuck! or pickled beets....thank you God that nobody ever made me eat either!

That's mercy and grace...


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> I'm pretty sure you have a choice to be one of the elect. All our hearts are hardened at one point or another, but yet we have a choice to surrender, and we know that when we do, we will have joy and peace....even if we have to eat buttered spinich.....yuckity yuck yuck yuck! or pickled beets....thank you God that nobody ever made me eat either!
> 
> That's mercy and grace...



Nope.  It's written down in the Book of Life.

His will be done.


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Nope.  It's written down in the Book of Life.



2 Thessalonians 2:13




ambush80 said:


> His will be done.



Isaiah 46:10


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## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> 2 Thessalonians 2:13
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isaiah 46:10



Thank you for bringing my point home.


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## The Foreigner

ambush80 said:


> Nope.  It's written down in the Book of Life.
> 
> His will be done.



Interesting ... the only man in the history of the world who actually knows his name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.  Is the Book of Life in your local library? ...it's just that no-one else seems to know who's name is not written in the book. Perhaps you have exclusive access?

Seems to me like you are using election (which is God's decree, and not revealed to man) as an excuse to remain in sin. Not knowing the decree of election, you do not have the right to determine whether your name is in the book or not. So you are simply left with the REVEALED will of God - which to you is "the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the gospel".

Peace.


----------



## ambush80

The Foreigner said:


> Interesting ... the only man in the history of the world who actually knows his name is not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.  Is the Book of Life in your local library? ...it's just that no-one else seems to know who's name is not written in the book. Perhaps you have exclusive access?
> 
> Seems to me like you are using election (which is God's decree, and not revealed to man) as an excuse to remain in sin. Not knowing the decree of election, you do not have the right to determine whether your name is in the book or not. So you are simply left with the REVEALED will of God - which to you is "the kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe in the gospel".
> 
> Peace.



Many claim to be Elect, meaning they claim to know that they are in the Win Column.  What's so strange about a claim to be Non-Elect?

As Jessica Rabbit said in _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_ "I'm not bad.  I'm just drawn that way."

It's OK.  

You won, Pharaoh and I lost.  Can't have everyone in Heaven, now, can we?  Some folks are meant to burn.  That's the plan.  This is the pot accepting the will of the potter.


----------



## The Foreigner

ambush80 said:


> Many claim to be Elect, meaning they claim to know that they are in the Win Column.  What's so strange about a claim to be Non-Elect?
> 
> As Jessica Rabbit said in _Who Framed Roger Rabbit_ "I'm not bad.  I'm just drawn that way."
> 
> It's OK.
> 
> You won, Pharaoh and I lost.  Can't have everyone in Heaven, now, can we?  Some folks are meant to burn.  That's the plan.  This is the pot accepting the will of the potter.



It's not a matter of winning or losing, though there will be great loss for you.  The point is when it comes to election - you don't know the will of the Potter. Your suppositions are based purely on your own desires to remain in sin.


----------



## ambush80

The Foreigner said:


> It's not a matter of winning or losing, though there will be great loss for you.  The point is when it comes to election - you don't know the will of the Potter. Your suppositions are based purely on your own desires to remain in sin.



As long as that goes for those who claim to be the elect as well and if that's the case, I may be one of the elect, "sinny", blasphemous  and all and you may not be.  That would be a bad joke on you, wouldn't it?

By the way,  it's Ok to say that you won if you're a winner and what a grand prize it is, too.  And it's Ok to admit when you've lost, even when there was no chance to win.


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## Israel

ambush80 said:


> As long as that goes for those who claim to be the elect as well and if that's the case, I may be one of the elect, "sinny", blasphemous  and all and you may not be.  That would be a bad joke on you, wouldn't it?
> 
> By the way,  it's Ok to say that you won if you're a winner and what a grand prize it is, too.  And it's Ok to admit when you've lost, even when there was no chance to win.



LOL...not a bad joke...a wonderful joke!
There's no "in crowd", no clique, no frat boys with the inside track...nobody to say you have or haven't jumped through enough or the right hoops to qualify.
Loving Jesus is a bit different sometimes, than what appears as being a christian. 
He also came to tear down the "we are in the right club" mentality, and it cost him a bit for the effort.
If I have any calling at all, if I have seen anything at all, if I have ever had one experience in the Lord that may be real at all, I can only say this: You may, in all your seeming bravado and, (how did you put it...) blasphemy, be a far better representation of the Lord than I am, simply by diligently resisting to fall to the temptation of categorizing reality as the "ins" and the "outs" according to what appears from some external adaptation of either various "inside" words, some behaviors, or some rituals.
For all I know, what may appear as irrascibility and recalcitrance may well be a dogged determination to hold to a deeper truth that more pleases God than all the creeds and rituals piled to the heavens I either practiced or embraced.
And that is: God is no respecter of persons. 
I can't pretend to know your heart, I have enough trouble sorting my own out. It's even possible that your deep conviction against submitting to club membership in any way, manner, shape, or form...is precisely what pleases God far more than my own hypocrisy.
You_ say _you have no conviction that Jesus lives...but, do you always tell the truth?


----------



## The Foreigner

ambush80 said:


> As long as that goes for those who claim to be the elect as well and if that's the case, I may be one of the elect, "sinny", blasphemous  and all and you may not be.  That would be a bad joke on you, wouldn't it?
> 
> By the way,  it's Ok to say that you won if you're a winner and what a grand prize it is, too.  And it's Ok to admit when you've lost, even when there was no chance to win.



I don't mean to confrontational, at least not anymore confrontational than the gospel is ... but at least you won't be able to use the excuse "Nobody told me...".


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> By the way,  it's Ok to say that you won if you're a winner and what a grand prize it is, too.  And it's Ok to admit when you've lost, even when there was no chance to win.



When you're at a point thinking there is no possible way to win, you're a lot closer to "winning" than you think.


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## Israel

StriperAddict said:


> When you're at a point thinking there is no possible way to win, you're a lot closer to "winning" than you think.



Amen!


----------



## Lowjack

Hate to burst all of your Bubbles, the Word is clear who the elect are.
God elected Israel , The Gentile Church Chose The God of Israel through his Messiah.


Exodus 19:5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exodus 19:6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.' These are the words you are to speak to the Israelites."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 4:20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 7:6 For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 10:15 Yet the LORD set his affection on your forefathers and loved them, and he chose you, their descendants, above all the nations, as it is today.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 14:2 for you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Out of all the peoples on the face of the earth, the LORD has chosen you to be his treasured possession.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 26:18 And the LORD has declared this day that you are his people, his treasured possession as he promised, and that you are to keep all his commands.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deuteronomy 26:19 He has declared that he will set you in praise, fame and honor high above all the nations he has made and that you will be a people holy to the LORD your God, as he promised.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1 Samuel 12:22 For the sake of his great name the LORD will not reject his people, because the LORD was pleased to make you his own.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Psalm 118:27 The LORD is God, and he has made his light shine upon us. With boughs in hand, join in the festal procession up to the horns of the altar.
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Psalm 135:4 For the LORD has chosen Jacob to be his own, Israel to be his treasured possession.
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Isaiah 9:2 The people walking in darkness have seen a great light; on those living in the land of the shadow of death a light has dawned.
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Isaiah 42:16 I will lead the blind by ways they have not known, along unfamiliar paths I will guide them; I will turn the darkness into light before them and make the rough places smooth. These are the things I will do; I will not forsake them.
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Isaiah 43:20 The wild animals honor me, the jackals and the owls, because I provide water in the desert and streams in the wasteland, to give drink to my people, my chosen,
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Isaiah 43:21 the people I formed for myself that they may proclaim my praise.
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Isaiah 61:6 And you will be called priests of the LORD, you will be named ministers of our God. You will feed on the wealth of nations, and in their riches you will boast.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 62:12 They will be called the Holy People, the Redeemed of the LORD; and you will be called Sought After, the City No Longer Deserted.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 66:21 And I will select some of them also to be priests and Levites," says the LORD.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Malachi 3:17 "They will be mine," says the LORD Almighty, "in the day when I make up my treasured possession. I will spare them, just as in compassion a man spares his son who serves him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Titus 2:14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.
New International Version ©1984 by Biblica 


Acquired Belonging Choice Chosen Clear Completely Dark Darkness Declare Deeds Elect Excellence Excellences Excellencies Forth Generation God's Heaven Holy Kingly Kings Lineage Marvellous Marvelous Nation Peculiar Perfections Possession Praises Priesthood Priests Proclaim Race Royal Shew Special Specially Virtues Wonderful Wondrous

Belonging Choice Chosen Clear Completely Dark Darkness Declare Deeds Elect Excellence Forth Generation God's Heaven Holy Kingly Kings Light Marvellous Marvelous Nation Peculiar Perfections Possession Praises Priesthood Priests Proclaim Race Royal Shew Show Special Specially Virtues Wonderful

Belonging Choice Chosen Clear Completely Dark Darkness Declare Deeds Elect Excellence Forth Generation God's Heaven Holy Kingly Kings Light Marvellous Marvelous Nation Peculiar Perfections Possession Praises Priesthood Priests Proclaim Race Royal Shew Show Special Specially Virtues Wonderful

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
a chosen. 1:2 De 10:15 Ps 22:30 33:12 73:15 Isa 41:8 44:1

a royal. Ex 19:5,6 Isa 61:6 66:21 Re 1:6 5:10 20:6

an holy. Ps 106:5 Isa 26:2 Joh 17:19 1Co 3:17 2Ti 1:9

peculiar. or, purchased. De 4:20 7:6 14:2 26:18,19 Ac 20:28 Eph 1:14 Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- 2:14

shew. 4:11 Isa 43:21 60:1-3 Mt 5:16 Eph 1:6 3:21 Php 2:15,16

praises. or, virtues. who. Isa 9:2 60:1,2 Mt 4:16 Lu 1:79 Ac 26:28 Ro 9:24 Eph 5:8-11 Php 3:14 Col 1:13 1Th 5:4-8

Bible Gateway: 1 Peter Chapter 2 Verse 9 NIV ESV NKJV NLT KJV Message Amplified

Alphabetical: a are belonging But called chosen darkness declare excellencies for God God's has him his holy into light marvelous may nation of out own people possession praises priesthood proclaim race royal so that the to who wonderful you

THE HOLY BIBLE, NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION®, NIV® Copyright ;© 1973, 1978, 1984 by Biblica®. Used by permission. All rights reserved worldwide.


----------



## Lowjack

"But you, O Israel, My servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, 
you descendants of Abraham My friend. — Isa. 41:8.

But now, this is what the Lord says—He who created you, O Jacob,
He who formed you, O Israel:
"Fear not, for I have redeemed you;
I have called you by name; you are Mine."
— Isa. 43:1.

"But now listen, O Jacob, My servant, Israel, whom I have chosen.
This is what the Lord says—
He who made you, who formed you in the womb,
and who will help you:
Do not be afraid, O Jacob, My servant, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen."
—Isa. 44:1, 2.

"For the sake of Jacob My servant, of Israel My chosen,
I call you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor
though you do not acknowledge Me."
— Isa. 45:4.

"Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called:
I am He; I am the first and I am the last."
—Isa. 48:12.

"I have put My words in your mouth 
and covered you with the shadow of My hand —
I who set the heavens in place, 
who laid the foundations of the earth, 
and who say to Zion, 'You are My people.'"
—Isa. 51:16. 

Election means God's choice or preference. The Jews are therefore known as "the chosen people."

Messiah. With respect to the election of the Messiah, the Lord declares through Isaiah:

"Here is My Servant, whom I uphold, My chosen One in whom I delight;
I will put My Spirit on Him and He will bring justice to the nations." —
Isa. 42:1.

"Come together, all of you, and listen:
Which of the idols has foretold these things?
The Lord's chosen Ally will carry out His purpose against Babylon;
His arm will be against the Babylonians.
I, even I, have spoken; yes, I have called Him.
I will bring Him, and He will succeed in His mission."
—Isa. 48:14, 15.1

Listen to Me, you islands; hear this you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called Me;
from My birth He has made mention of My name.
He made My mouth like a sharpened sword, 
in the shadow of His hand He hid Me;
He made Me into a polished arrow and concealed Me in His quiver.

He said to Me, "You are My Servant, 
Israel, in whom I will display My splendor."
But I said, "I have labored to no purpose; 
I have spent My strength in vain and for nothing.
Yet what is due Me is in the Lord's hand, and My reward is with My God."

And now the Lord says—
He who formed Me in the womb to be His Servant
to bring Jacob back to Him and gather Israel to Himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and My God has been My strength—

He says:
"It is too small a thing for You to be My Servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make You a light for the Gentiles, 
that You may bring My salvation to the ends of the earth."
— Isa. 49:1-6. 

In this passage the Messiah is also called Israel. This title refers both to the chosen people and to the chosen One. In Isaiah there is an interesting interplay between these two elect entities. Both are called the elect. Both are called "the servant of Yahweh." And both are the subject of Isaiah's great servant songs. If we are to grasp the biblical concept of redemption through substitution and representation, we must not lose sight of the fact that Jesus stands before God as Israel. The many are justified in the suffering of One (Isa. 53:11). And the many are constituted children in the election of One.


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## Israel

It's impossible, of course, to be of the faith of Abraham without being of the God of Abraham.
The same God who called him out of his natural father's house to serve him.
We all have a natural dwelling place out of which we are being called to serve God...
And when we are called out of that...we see how silly it is to have _any_ confidence in the flesh.


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## TimB

> Mat 10:32	¶	*Whosoever* therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.





> Revelation 22:17
> 
> 17And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And *whosoever will*, let him take the water of life freely.





> John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever* believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 
> 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that *the world* through him might be saved.



Let everything be confirmed with two or three witnesses. From my reading of the scripture we are given the choice. We can discuss predestination till the cows come home, having been raised in a house of ministers I've heard it all before. It's fruitless to try and figure out the exact meaning of some verses which can be viewed in many ways. 

 But when the word clearly says "Whosoever" will may come I take it to mean just that.


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## Big7

Hey Annie,

Maybe this will help.
Don't let anyone fool you or yours.

The Elect mentioned in the context of this rubbish. Period.

God gave you a mind and free will.
Guess you could say you can "elect" yourself. 

What it meant in the OT and in the NT ALL can be found HERE:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05374a.htm


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## mtnwoman

Big7 said:


> Hey Annie,
> 
> Maybe this will help.
> Don't let anyone fool you or yours.
> 
> The Elect mentioned in the context of this rubbish. Period.
> 
> God gave you a mind and free will.
> Guess you could say you can "elect" yourself.




Amen!! Thank you!  I was saved based on John 3:16...whosoever.

I have free will to sin and I have free will to accept Christ as my Saviour! Just like the Jews. I was only grafted in not forced in. I chose to be grafted in by mercy and grace.

If I was chosen by God's will to be saved, wouldn't I be perfect based on God's will for me? His will is for me to be sinless? am I? by no means. Why? because I have free will to choose.


----------



## mtnwoman

StriperAddict said:


> When you're at a point thinking there is no possible way to win, you're a lot closer to "winning" than you think.



Amen!

Just being here, makes you closer than you think!
Knock knock!!


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> If I was chosen by God's will to be saved, wouldn't I be perfect based on God's will for me?



Absolutely 



mtnwoman said:


> His will is for me to be sinless? am I?



Absolutely or you are in need of a more perfect substitute!




mtnwoman said:


> Why? because I have free will to choose.



And choose you did, in Adam. The result was death!


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## Big7

Silly me!

I meant to link you to this site in post # 242. 

No bones tell it like it is.

Sorry Annie 

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/num21.htm


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## TimB

mtnwoman said:


> I realize what you're saying about being special.
> 
> But if everyone is dead in trespasses and the specialness of being chosen is because of grace, but that grace is not extended to everyone, makes God a respecter of persons, and *I don't believe that.*




Probably because that's in the Bible!



> Act 10:34	¶	Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
> 
> Act 10:35	 	But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.





> And to an unsaved person, telling them that I've been chosen and I'm saved, not sure you can be, but let me preach the gospel to you and if you might be chosen, then you'll know.....that concept is what many unsaved people hold against us and our God, thinking we are chosen/elected by God, but not all are.



Preach it Sister! How embarrassing that would be to have to preach the Gospel like that! How do you share the Love of God with someone and then tell them, "but he may not love you enough to save you! His Grace may not be sufficient for YOU!"  

How silly. 



> The Jews are God's chosen people....will they all be saved? Many of them will. Maybe all, I don't know. I know of 2 who are not even practicing Jews that think because they are chosen they are going to heaven no matter what and maybe they are right, according to you. So I don't need to give them anything better.
> Jehovah's Witnesses believe they are the elect. The tulip believe they are the elect. That was the reason for my question in the original post.
> 
> I believe those that believe Christ's/God's word to be true, that Jesus died for our sins, become the elect.
> 
> I am grateful for grace, and mercy and forgiveness. However it is the Jesus in me that extends mercy and grace and forgiveness to others because me, myself and I am not always capable of those things. I have to pray alot about those things, too. That to me proves that I have a free will, to not always obey, as I should.  If we didn't have free will wouldn't we live by and in God's perfect will all the time?
> 
> No doubt I was brought to salvation by grace, mercy and the blood of Christ. No doubt Jesus knocked on my heart many times, and God pricked my heart and I turned away. No doubt that God knew who and who wouldn't accept salvation and knows every hair on my head. But John 3:16 is stuck in my craw and will never let go.
> 
> 
> I do not wish to battle you or anyone else that posts here about this, because I don't believe that if we are already saved that this topic is not salvation rendering to us.  My witness here is for those who lurk and read but never post, that might want to know how to be saved....or to understand the Bible. I continue to post because I can't help myself and it's heavy on my heart everyday, that an unsaved person here, might think they don't have to do anything to be saved, either they are pre elected or they aren't and they'll find out sooner or later and never seek the word because of that. If I'm wrong it won't matter, but if i'm right and they think they are predestined to be saved or lost anyway, not a worry in the world and do nothing about seeking Christ, then they will be doomed if they just do nothing, I'm not taking that chance.
> 
> I'm not worried abit about us who are the elect now, I'm worried about those who are not at least not now.






> Rom 10:9	 	That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, *thou shalt be saved.*






> 2Pe 3:9	 	The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, *not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.*



"Shalt" means Shalt and "ALL" means All. I'm just sayin'.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Amen!! Thank you!  I was saved based on John 3:16...whosoever.
> 
> I have free will to sin and I have free will to accept Christ as my Saviour! Just like the Jews. I was only grafted in not forced in. I chose to be grafted in by mercy and grace.
> 
> If I was chosen by God's will to be saved, wouldn't I be perfect based on God's will for me? His will is for me to be sinless? am I? by no means. Why? because I have free will to choose.



Were you gonna do anything other than what He knew you were gonna?


----------



## TimB

ambush80 said:


> Were you gonna do anything other than what He knew you were gonna?



What difference would it make? God lives outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. Just because he can see what you're going to do before you do it doesn't mean the decision to do it wasn't yours, it was.


----------



## ambush80

TimB said:


> What difference would it make? God lives outside of time and knows the end from the beginning. Just because he can see what you're going to do before you do it doesn't mean the decision to do it wasn't yours, it was.



You should really think about what you're saying very carefully.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Were you gonna do anything other than what He knew you were gonna?



He knows everything I'm gonna do....but it's not necessarily all in His will or I'd be perfect. All I'm saying is I have free will and a choice to choose right or wrong, to accept salvation or not. I've said that all thru this thread, ya know?

He knows everything, He knew I'd turn into a wild woman at 23 and stay until I was 45, living mostly a sinful life....was that in His will? No, did He know I was gonna do that? Yes! Did He let me do it? Yes! Why? Because I have free will. We all do.

But I do not believe that He chose me to be saved before the foundation of the world, even though He knew whether I would chose to be saved or not...He didn't make that choice for me. He gave me that choice, and that's the most incredible thing He could've ever done for me, is give me that simple choice. I didn't have to live a perfect life, even though that is in His will for me to do so. He knows I can't, so He gave us Jesus as our scapegoat our sacrificial lamb for atonement, otherwise all of us would be lost forever and seperated from God.

If He picked and chose us unto salvation, there would be no need for the cross as our salvation would've been nailed down before the foundation of the world no matter what.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> He knows everything I'm gonna do....but it's not necessarily all in His will or I'd be perfect. All I'm saying is I have free will and a choice to choose right or wrong, to accept salvation or not. I've said that all thru this thread, ya know?
> 
> He knows everything, He knew I'd turn into a wild woman at 23 and stay until I was 45, living mostly a sinful life....was that in His will? No, did He know I was gonna do that? Yes! Did He let me do it? Yes! Why? Because I have free will. We all do.
> 
> But I do not believe that He chose me to be saved before the foundation of the world, even though He knew whether I would chose to be saved or not...He didn't make that choice for me. He gave me that choice, and that's the most incredible thing He could've ever done for me, is give me that simple choice. I didn't have to live a perfect life, even though that is in His will for me to do so. He knows I can't, so He gave us Jesus as our scapegoat our sacrificial lamb for atonement, otherwise all of us would be lost forever and seperated from God.
> 
> If He picked and chose us unto salvation, there would be no need for the cross as our salvation would've been nailed down before the foundation of the world no matter what.




If I understand you correctly, God loves everybody and wants to save everybody but He has given man a free will, and cannot save a man unless that man, of his own free will, decides to let God save him.

So the Scriptures are mistaken when they describe man as dead in sins? God is not sovereign? His will is subject to man's will? We should be praying to men to use their will to let God save them?

Salvation is not dependent upon God, but man? Man gets a portion of the credit in salvation? Salvation cannot be said to be 100% grace?

Man's will is the key that unlocks the grace of God? Grace cannot work unless man turns the key? God's will has no say in the ultimate destiny of the sinner? In reality, God's will is meaningless in the salvation of the sinner?

The will of man controls his own destiny? The death of Christ was at best a gamble, dependent upon the will of man, and in reality a failure, because many He died for are lost anyway? The security of the believer hinges on his own will? 

We take the weakest aspect of our nature, our will, and build a religion upon it?


"It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Romans 9:16).


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> He knows everything I'm gonna do....but it's not necessarily all in His will or I'd be perfect. All I'm saying is I have free will and a choice to choose right or wrong, to accept salvation or not. I've said that all thru this thread, ya know?
> 
> He knows everything, He knew I'd turn into a wild woman at 23 and stay until I was 45, living mostly a sinful life....was that in His will? No, did He know I was gonna do that? Yes! Did He let me do it? Yes! Why? Because I have free will. We all do.
> 
> But I do not believe that He chose me to be saved before the foundation of the world, even though He knew whether I would chose to be saved or not...He didn't make that choice for me. He gave me that choice, and that's the most incredible thing He could've ever done for me, is give me that simple choice. I didn't have to live a perfect life, even though that is in His will for me to do so. He knows I can't, so He gave us Jesus as our scapegoat our sacrificial lamb for atonement, otherwise all of us would be lost forever and seperated from God.
> 
> If He picked and chose us unto salvation, there would be no need for the cross as our salvation would've been nailed down before the foundation of the world no matter what.



Were you gonna do anything other than what you did?  You really have to understand what that means in regards to free will.

This whole idea gnaws at you.   You know in your gut it doesn't make sense.  I implore you to keep questioning. You deserve to know the truth.



gemcgrew said:


> If I understand you correctly, God loves everybody and wants to save everybody but He has given man a free will, and cannot save a man unless that man, of his own free will, decides to let God save him.
> 
> So the Scriptures are mistaken when they describe man as dead in sins? God is not sovereign? His will is subject to man's will? We should be praying to men to use their will to let God save them?
> 
> Salvation is not dependent upon God, but man? Man gets a portion of the credit in salvation? Salvation cannot be said to be 100% grace?
> 
> Man's will is the key that unlocks the grace of God? Grace cannot work unless man turns the key? God's will has no say in the ultimate destiny of the sinner? In reality, God's will is meaningless in the salvation of the sinner?
> 
> The will of man controls his own destiny? The death of Christ was at best a gamble, dependent upon the will of man, and in reality a failure, because many He died for are lost anyway? The security of the believer hinges on his own will?
> 
> We take the weakest aspect of our nature, our will, and build a religion upon it?
> 
> 
> "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Romans 9:16).



Aren't you glad that you are one of the chosen ones?  Pity us, the cursed.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> If I understand you correctly, God loves everybody and wants to save everybody but He has given man a free will, and cannot save a man unless that man, of his own free will, decides to let God save him.*Yes, or He woulda just said, well rather than kill my son for your sins, I've just chosen you to be saved and the rest no go, I have no mercy or grace on them.....too bad, so sad.*
> 
> So the Scriptures are mistaken when they describe man as dead in sins?*No, we are all dead in sin, every one.* God is not sovereign? *Yes, no one said He wasn't. But the elect are not who you think they are.*His will is subject to man's will?*Are you sayiing you don't have free will and do things (sin) that you know that isn't in God's will?* We should be praying to men to use their will to let God save them?*Where did I say that? Man y'all can really twist things up. God said He would save us if....John 3:16. *
> 
> Salvation is not dependent upon God, but man?*Who said that? again you are trying to twist nothing into something.* Man gets a portion of the credit in salvation?*I don't know about you, but I don't. But I don't think I'm more special than anyone else and they have as much of an opportunity to be saved as much as I do. Honestly do you think God would choose for people to be unsaved? come on now...that's what makes no sense. He chose you and me, but Bob, Billy, Susie are out of luck, because God didn't chose them? * Salvation cannot be said to be 100% grace?*We are saved by grace rather than works....nobody said we weren't. Grace is extended to everyone, God is no respector of persons....y'all gonna throw that outta the Bible along with John 3:16?*
> 
> Man's will is the key that unlocks the grace of God?*Who said that? You are trying to justify your belief by your imagination of what other people say, that they don't even say.* Grace cannot work unless man turns the key?*Who said that? * God's will has no say in the ultimate destiny of the sinner?*Does God's will have any say in your sins....has He made you perfect and sinless...that's His will ya know, for you to be sinless...are you? If His choice is to preselect you why wouldn't He make you perfect, He can ya know...but does He?* In reality, God's will is meaningless in the salvation of the sinner?*Where do you come up with this stuff? The bible says, if you'll read it, that God desires for NO ONE to perish....you gonna throw that out. But they will perish because they don't choose to accept  God's offer of grace ...that is their choice. You honestly think our God does not have mercy and grace available for everyone....that's an aweful cruel god and why many don't come to salvation as it is now.*
> 
> The will of man controls his own destiny?*Do you think an addict controls his own destiny, do you think that's God's will for him? No, but does the addict do it anyway.* The death of Christ was at best a gamble, dependent upon the will of man, and in reality a failure, because many He died for are lost anyway?*It clearly says in the Bible that Christ died for everyone, not just you because you were lucky.* The security of the believer hinges on his own will? *It does hinge on his will, by God's grace...God's will is for no one to perish...the Bible says that....throw that out too? Why do you never include what God says rather than what Calvin says?*
> 
> We take the weakest aspect of our nature, our will, and build a religion upon it?*I don't...some people like the Jehovah's Witness proclaim they are the elect, too. I don't believe that either. The elect are Jews it says so in the Bible....are you from the tribe of Judah?Do you think only 144,000 people will be saved. Lord help us Jesus!!!!!!!*
> 
> 
> "It is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy" (Romans 9:16). You left out For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....why oh why do y'all do that...and pick some verse that suits your purpose. So are you saying God doesn't have mercy on everyone, just His special, chosen, elect people, that are better than anyone else that didn't get picked?



OT people were saved by works, we are saved by grace and mercy and we have to believe John 3:16.

Like a choice cut of meat, eh? God chooses the best and the rest He kills off. Sorry I'm not in that camp. But you got the Jehovahs Witnesses that believe as you do....so you're not alone in this false doctrine.

It's not salvation rendering for us who are saved but it might be salvation rendering to someone who wants to know if God will save them and you have to tell them you don't know because you don't know if they are of the chosen as you are. You'd personally would be lying if you said yes....you'd have to say, I don't know...you might not be chosen as I am, to be truthful to them. That is NOT the gospel

The Jews are God's chosen people...the 144,000 are the elect Jews that will preach the gospel to the unsaved Jews during the tribulation. When we become saved we become part of the elect, grafted into the vine, not by preselection but by grace and mercy and believe that John 3:16 is true. Throw that verse out if you want to....but I can't do it.

Believe it or not.

I was not saved on the belief that I was especially chosen, I was saved on the belief that Jesus loves everyone and He knocks on all our hearts and all we have to do is let Him in and He will come in a sup with us.
How about you? what belief did you have when you walked to the alter, or when you accepted Christ or whatever it was y'all do or think you should do? What was your belief at the moment? Just curious.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> This whole idea gnaws at you.   You know in your gut it doesn't make sense.  I implore you to keep questioning. You deserve to know the truth.



Do you mean what I'm saying doesn't make sense?

It isn't gnawing at me, I'm under heavy conviction, it's spreading like wildfire thru the churches. I can about guarantee you most people that I know that are saved were not saved on the basis that they were preselected/elected/chosen while others do not have the opportunity or choice to be saved because they were preselected to perish.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Do you mean what I'm saying doesn't make sense?
> 
> It isn't gnawing at me, I'm under heavy conviction, it's spreading like wildfire thru the churches. I can about guarantee you most people that I know that are saved were not saved on the basis that they were preselected/elected/chosen while others do not have the opportunity or choice to be saved because they were preselected to perish.




What if God knows that I will never repent.  

Can I do anything to change that?  

Can I surprise him?  

Is there some point that He says "Hey Gabriel!  Look at that!  Ambush accepted Christ, I mean Me...or whatever. I never saw that coming.  I was sure that he wasn't supposed to ever submit.  I wonder if it will stick?"


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> What if God knows that I will never repent.
> 
> Can I do anything to change that?
> 
> Can I surprise him?
> 
> Is there some point that He says "Hey Gabriel!  Look at that!  Ambush  accepted Christ, I mean Me...or whatever. I never saw that coming.  I  was sure that he wasn't supposed to ever submit.  I wonder if it will  stick?"


What you'll find when you find Him is that it won't matter or speak to the life you gain in Him.  That's all I can add.  I don't know what could trip you up over this unless there is inner concern over the overall plan of God. Can any of us know it in it's totality? Of course not.  But we can know of absolute certainty that we have the life of Christ by choosing the life He was willing to die to give.

Head stuff will trip us up every time. Heart stuff will always lead the way.
I know little of the grand picture in my mind, but my new man in Christ, the spirit man, knows all to well.


----------



## ambush80

StriperAddict said:


> What you'll find when you find Him is that it won't matter or speak to the life you gain in Him.  That's all I can add.  I don't know what could trip you up over this unless there is inner concern over the overall plan of God. Can any of us know it in it's totality? Of course not.  But we can know of absolute certainty that we have the life of Christ by choosing the life He was willing to die to give.
> 
> Head stuff will trip us up every time. Heart stuff will always lead the way.
> I know little of the grand picture in my mind, but my new man in Christ, the spirit man, knows all to well.



In a very elegant way you you basically said "Don't think about it so much. Don't try to make it make sense".


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> In a very elegant way you you basically said "Don't think about it so much. Don't try to make it make sense".



To be honest, this is one paradox that I don't have to, for the sake of knowing His love.  There are other issues that have grown smaller in light of that also.  Faith can leave much to Him that won't make a big difference in the end. I hope the ones you study make a way for understanding, but He is Lord.  His Spirit speaks/convicts our hearts of the important first. Try a new search there.

Also from another thread, this:



gtparts said:


> God's Word says we can know with absolute certainty some things (such as  His love and His salvation), but it denies we can know it all, at least  in this life. Some things are just not for us to know.


----------



## ambush80

StriperAddict said:


> To be honest, this is one paradox that I don't have to, for the sake of knowing His love.  There are other issues that have grown smaller in light of that also.  Faith can leave much to Him that won't make a big difference in the end. I hope the ones you study make a way for understanding, but He is Lord.  His Spirit speaks/convicts our hearts of the important first. Try a new search there.
> 
> Also from another thread, this:



That's what I've been trying to tell Mntwoman.  For whatever reason, she thinks it can be reconciled logically.  I'm glad you pointed out the only way to reconcile God's omniscience and Free Will is through special pleading.

You must accept that my fate, as know to God, may not include salvation.  What am I to do?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> What if God knows that I will never repent.
> 
> Can I do anything to change that?
> 
> Can I surprise him?
> 
> Is there some point that He says "Hey Gabriel!  Look at that!  Ambush accepted Christ, I mean Me...or whatever. I never saw that coming.  I was sure that he wasn't supposed to ever submit.  I wonder if it will stick?"



If God knows you won't repent, that is because He is all knowing, not because HE chose you to be lost.

People that believe in the TULIP teaching believe there is nothing you can do to change what God has pre chosen even if you wanted to. My stance on that is yes, God does know what you will do, but I do not believe He chose for you to perish, he gave you free will to choose.

I'm not doubting God is all knowing, I'm doubting that God picked and chose who He wanted to save and who He chose to let perish. Letting someone perish doesn't show any grace or mercy towards that person and I believe my God is not only all knowing, but He is merciful and graceful to all.

If the elect are correct, then if you aren't chosen my friend then you are hades bound and nothing you can do to change it. No way do I believe that anymore than I believe the Jehovah's witnesses are the elect 144,000. Gees that's all the people that will be in heaven? I double d doubt that.

Choose Christ my friend, then you become one of the elect and we'll all clog together in heaven...or go fishin, or whatever God has a plan for and I'm sure it's a much better plan than what we have.  God did not chose for you to be lost, He chose for all to be saved and to not perish, and that includes you.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> If God knows you won't repent, that is because He is all knowing, not because HE chose you to be lost.
> 
> People that believe in the TULIP teaching believe there is nothing you can do to change what God has pre chosen even if you wanted to. My stance on that is yes, God does know what you will do, but I do not believe He chose for you to perish, he gave you free will to choose.
> 
> I'm not doubting God is all knowing, I'm doubting that God picked and chose who He wanted to save and who He chose to let perish. Letting someone perish doesn't show any grace or mercy towards that person and I believe my God is not only all knowing, but He is merciful and graceful to all.
> 
> If the elect are correct, then if you aren't chosen my friend then you are hades bound and nothing you can do to change it. No way do I believe that anymore than I believe the Jehovah's witnesses are the elect 144,000. Gees that's all the people that will be in heaven? I double d doubt that.
> 
> Choose Christ my friend, then you become one of the elect and we'll all clog together in heaven...or go fishin, or whatever God has a plan for and I'm sure it's a much better plan than what we have.  God did not chose for you to be lost, He chose for all to be saved and to not perish, and that includes you.



I've never been trying to place blame on God.  

Let me say that again. I'm not blaming God. 

 I'm just pointing out that if He knows what I'm going to do, then there was no other outcome than the one that will happen.  I can't make it any simpler.  Some pots are going to become beautiful vessels and some pots will shatter in the kiln.  He knows which is which.

Tell your son in law there's no way to understand it.  Trust and obey.  There's no other way.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I'm just pointing out that if He knows what I'm going to do, then there was no other outcome than the one that will happen.



I get that. I know and have said a gazillion times that God already knows what's gonna happen, I do not deny that.

Let's look at it this way...what I'm trying to say. And this of course is not saying that you are all knowing, but as an adult a lot of us know what will happen to our children if they do something we tell them not to do.

If you have a 6 year old that's doing cartwheels in the parking lot of walmart on Christmas Eve and it's crazy and you know what will happen if that 6 year old doesn't do what you want them to do, they will get run over.

If that child gets away from you and does cartwheels anyway and gets hurt, was that your will even though you knew what would happen? Would you have chosen for that child to have done what you ask but since they had free will they didn't do what you ask, would it be your choice that child got hurt because you knew they would? Or did they get hurt because of their own free will of choice.

The Tulip Calvinists believers are saying that even though you know what would happen it is your will that the child got hurt because you knew they would.  The child doesn't have free will....you knowing what would happen, made the choice for them to be saved or lost...and since they got hurt that was your will.

I'm not talking about fault in anyway, I'm talking of free will. According to the elect it would be God's fault if He didn't choose for you to be saved.  If you have no choice in the matter, then yes it's God's choice and it's His fault.

That's why I believe He gives us a choice to be saved or not. Does He know what we will choose ahead of time....YES HE DOES!!! The Tulip Calvinists  believe God chooses for us, and we have no choice.

Do I believe that you (personally) are not saved now, but think I could lead you to salvation by preaching the gospel to you (the great commission) that you then COULD be saved. YES!  I DO NOT believe that God chose for you and His choice was for you to be lost...I don't believe God chooses for anyone to be lost. Does HE know, being allknowing, that you will be lost....YES He knows what YOU will choose, but He doesn't choose for you.

If it were set in stone that whatever happens is preselected then no one needs to preach the gospel, because if God selected or rejected us, NO matter what anyone does will change that. 

If God has chosen you to be saved in the end, then no one need to preach to you, you're prechosen. Nothing you can do either away according to those who believe the TULIP preselection doctrine of either being elect or not elect before the foundation of the earth.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> I get that. I know and have said a gazillion times that God already knows what's gonna happen, I do not deny that.
> 
> Let's look at it this way...what I'm trying to say. And this of course is not saying that you are all knowing, but as an adult a lot of us know what will happen to our children if they do something we tell them not to do.



We cannot look at it "this way" because crucial to the crux of the matter is the fact that God IS all knowing.




mtnwoman said:


> If you have a 6 year old that's doing cartwheels in the parking lot of walmart on Christmas Eve and it's crazy and you know what will happen if that 6 year old doesn't do what you want them to do, they will get run over.
> 
> If that child gets away from you and does cartwheels anyway and gets hurt, was that your will even though you knew what would happen? Would you have chosen for that child to have done what you ask but since they had free will they didn't do what you ask, would it be your choice that child got hurt because you knew they would? Or did they get hurt because of their own free will of choice.



If I was all knowing and I knew that my cartwheeling child was going to come out unscathed would I tell them not to do it?  If I knew that they would choke and die on the pop corn that I gave them would I not have given it to them?



mtnwoman said:


> The Tulip Calvinists believers are saying that even though you know what would happen it is your will that the child got hurt because you knew they would.  The child doesn't have free will....you knowing what would happen, made the choice for them to be saved or lost...and since they got hurt that was your will.
> 
> I'm not talking about fault in anyway, I'm talking of free will. According to the elect it would be God's fault if He didn't choose for you to be saved.  If you have no choice in the matter, then yes it's God's choice and it's His fault.



He could just be watching.  Though that would be an incorrect way of thinking about it, since he already knows what will happen.  



mtnwoman said:


> That's why I believe He gives us a choice to be saved or not. Does He know what we will choose ahead of time....YES HE DOES!!! The Tulip Calvinists  believe God chooses for us, and we have no choice.



Please, I implore you, think long and hard about the word "choice" as it applies to an omniscient being. 



mtnwoman said:


> Do I believe that you (personally) are not saved now, but think I could lead you to salvation by preaching the gospel to you (the great commission) that you then COULD be saved.



But God ALREADY knows what's going to happen whether you preach or not.




mtnwoman said:


> YES!  I DO NOT believe that God chose for you and His choice was for you to be lost...I don't believe God chooses for anyone to be lost. Does HE know, being allknowing, that you will be lost....YES He knows what YOU will choose, but He doesn't choose for you.



I'm still not talking about forcing anyone.



mtnwoman said:


> If it were set in stone that whatever happens is preselected then no one needs to preach the gospel, because if God selected or rejected us, NO matter what anyone does will change that.
> 
> If God has chosen you to be saved in the end, then no one need to preach to you, you're prechosen. Nothing you can do either away according to those who believe the TULIP preselection doctrine of either being elect or not elect before the foundation of the earth.



You're soooooooooo close.  You just don't want to accept the paradox, I assume because it just doesn't seem right.  It's probably not right.  

The best you can do to reconcile this is do what Striperaddict does and say "It doesn't make sense but I don't care."


----------



## Ronnie T

ambush80 said:


> That's what I've been trying to tell Mntwoman.  For whatever reason, she thinks it can be reconciled logically.  I'm glad you pointed out the only way to reconcile God's omniscience and Free Will is through special pleading.
> 
> You must accept that my fate, as know to God, may not include salvation.  What am I to do?[/QUOTE]
> 
> You'll get what one who mocks God deserves!
> And you'll be eating a lot of words you've spoken.
> And you'll confess Jesus as the Son of God.


----------



## ambush80

Ronnie T said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's what I've been trying to tell Mntwoman.  For whatever reason, she thinks it can be reconciled logically.  I'm glad you pointed out the only way to reconcile God's omniscience and Free Will is through special pleading.
> 
> You must accept that my fate, as know to God, may not include salvation.  What am I to do?[/QUOTE]
> 
> You'll get what one who mocks God deserves!
> And you'll be eating a lot of words you've spoken.
> And you'll confess Jesus as the Son of God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Amen, rabbi.  I'll bring some extra hot sauce.
> 
> So much for discussion.
Click to expand...


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I'm talking of free will. According to the elect it would be God's fault if He didn't choose for you to be saved.


 
Choice yes, fault no, for he has none. 



mtnwoman said:


> If you have no choice in the matter, then yes it's God's choice and it's His fault.




Of coarse it is God's choice. That is the very definition of God. He is either sovereign in all things or no God at all and not worthy of worship. 


I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9: 15-23

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mark 13:20

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6)


The word of God teaches us that man by nature has neither the will (John 5:40) nor the ability (John 6:44) to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. All the sons and daughters of Adam are by nature spiritually dead (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:1-4), having no more ability in the spiritual realm than a dead man does in the natural realm (John 3:3-7). We are all by nature morally depraved sinners, incapable of doing anything good toward God (Rom. 3:9-19). As we are incapable of doing anything good or spiritual by nature, we are not capable of believing on Christ. Faith in Christ is a gift of God brought forth in the heart by the sovereign, irresistible power of God the Holy Spirit in regenerating grace (Psa. 65:4; 100:3; Eph. 1:19; 2:8; Col. 2:12).


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Aren't you glad that you are one of the chosen ones?  Pity us, the cursed.



Oh, but you may be in better shape than most folks warming a pew on Sunday, pretending to know God.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Choice yes, fault no, for he has none.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of coarse it is God's choice. That is the very definition of God. He is either sovereign in all things or no God at all and not worthy of worship.
> 
> 
> I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
> So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
> For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
> Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
> Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
> Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
> Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
> What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
> And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Romans 9: 15-23
> 
> And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. Mark 13:20
> 
> All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37
> 
> And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65
> 
> Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." Ephesians 1:3-6)
> 
> 
> The word of God teaches us that man by nature has neither the will (John 5:40) nor the ability (John 6:44) to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. All the sons and daughters of Adam are by nature spiritually dead (Rom. 5:12; Eph. 2:1-4), having no more ability in the spiritual realm than a dead man does in the natural realm (John 3:3-7). We are all by nature morally depraved sinners, incapable of doing anything good toward God (Rom. 3:9-19). As we are incapable of doing anything good or spiritual by nature, we are not capable of believing on Christ. Faith in Christ is a gift of God brought forth in the heart by the sovereign, irresistible power of God the Holy Spirit in regenerating grace (Psa. 65:4; 100:3; Eph. 1:19; 2:8; Col. 2:12).



Explain John 3:16 to me....first and foremost before you pick and select any other scriptures out for me to read that everyone of the TULIP tribe repeats over and over.

And God is not 100% merciful or grace giving, if only part of us are selected to be saved and part a selected to perish....He's partially graceful, only to the ones He chooses.....and even if you choose Him and He doesn't choose you, then your doomed? Explain that to me.

Please do not tell me again that God is all knowing, I know that. He knows who will and who will not be saved. But prove to me that He has only a select few that He chooses, if you go by JW's they are the 144,000 elect...that ain't many. They explain being the elect the same as you do.

Again I ask what does John 3:16 mean?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Oh, but you may be in better shape than most folks warming a pew on Sunday, pretending to know God.




Why warm a pew if you're presaved?

I'm saved that's it...I can preach the gospel...but what good will it do me to preach to ambush? If you're saved you're save, no matter anything about the gospel...right?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Oh, but you may be in better shape than most folks warming a pew on Sunday, pretending to know God.



One more question and it should be a short answer....what did you believe when you chose salvation? Or whatever, I know you didn't choose, but what happened when it dawned on you that were saved and then got baptized? Did you choose to get baptized? Why be baptized if you're preselected to be saved?

Just answer those questions...no scripture please...just your personal testimony...oh you don't have a testimony, well just when it dawned on you....or whatever.


----------



## mtnwoman

Wanna prove your point with scripture....explain this to me

Matthew 18:13-15
King James Version (KJV)


 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 

 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 

 15Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.

Just explain this scripture, don't quote something else or send me a link, please...just your conviction on what this means.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Explain John 3:16 to me



John 3:16 is almost always the first verse thrown my way by will worshipers. They take the position that "world" means everybody (universal atonement). We know from Scripture that God does not love everybody. We do know that he loves his people (church, sheep, elect). The word "world" in John 3:16 refers to believers only, as it does in John 1:29; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.





mtnwoman said:


> And God is not 100% merciful or grace giving, if only part of us are selected to be saved and part a selected to perish



He will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:18



mtnwoman said:


> and even if you choose Him and He doesn't choose you, then your doomed? Explain that to me.



You have no desire or ability to choose Him because you are dead, D-E-A-D, dead. His chosen are given the gift of life! Only then do they respond.




mtnwoman said:


> Please do not tell me again that God is all knowing, I know that.



Not sure where that came from.



mtnwoman said:


> He knows who will and who will not be saved. But prove to me that He has only a select few that He chooses



It wouldn't do either one of us any good for me to prove it to you.



mtnwoman said:


> if you go by JW's they are the 144,000 elect...that ain't many. They explain being the elect the same as you do.



No they don't


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> One more question and it should be a short answer....what did you believe when you chose salvation? Or whatever, I know you didn't choose, but what happened when it dawned on you that were saved and then got baptized? Did you choose to get baptized? Why be baptized if you're preselected to be saved?
> 
> Just answer those questions...no scripture please...just your personal testimony...oh you don't have a testimony, well just when it dawned on you....or whatever.



I will try and respond to this in the next day or 2. And yes I have a testimony......


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> John 3:16 is almost always the first verse thrown my way by will worshipers. They take the position that "world" means everybody (universal atonement). We know from Scripture that God does not love everybody. We do know that he loves his people (church, sheep, elect). The word "world" in John 3:16 refers to believers only, as it does in John 1:29; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.*Of course it is....because it says whosoever...what does whosoever mean? God created everyone but He doesn't love everyone. Just you? and a select other few? How can you possibly think you are so good/great/ to be selected as opposed to others that were not? You were extended grace and they were not?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:18
> 
> 
> 
> You have no desire or ability to choose Him because you are dead, D-E-A-D, dead. His chosen are given the gift of life! Only then do they respond.*So if they respond is that an action on their part?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure where that came from.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't do either one of us any good for me to prove it to you.*Yeah it might do somebody some good, that might think they are not chosen like ambush*
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't*Actually they do, they think they are the 144,000 elect of God which are actually the Jews that will preach the gospel to the Jews who were blinded and unsaved at the time of the rapture. But if you believe they don't, tell me what the JWs believe.*



Again I ask you, what did you believe at the moment you realized you were saved? Did you go to the alter? that's an action on your part if you did. Did you decide to get baptized as yourself or as a robot directed by God....if you wanted to get baptized that's an action on your part. 

Please answer those questions and quite avoiding what you believed the moment you realized you were saved or wanted to be saved or accepted Jesus as your saviour or opened the door when He knocked. Were you just a robot or did you choose to do those things?

Robot, or choose on your own, are your only two choices. Just answer the question. You had nothing to do with being saved then you are a robot. Did you choose or not? Did God give you a choice or not...or did He just put you in the saved line? and that's that?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I will try and respond to this in the next day or 2. And yes I have a testimony......



But you don't really need a testimony, nor to preach the gospel to the presaved and it's a waste of time to preach to the preselected lost.  So why bother? Your testimony won't make a difference to anyone who is saved nor to anyone who is predestined to perish or preselected to be saved.....would it? Just go hunting or something, don't waste your time on something that is already accomplished.


----------



## mtnwoman

I just talked to my daughter and back to the original post about my son in law.....he is still on this tulip kick and how special it makes him to be preselected and how much more he loves God (or feels special) because God chose him to be saved instead of being lost......sigh.

Ok then go play golf....and don't worry, God has it all preplanned and nothing that you can do will change that not even preaching the gospel. Don't take your children to church, they are either lost or saved....don't worry about it.

Please God help us...please!  The great commission is useless under a preselected predestination agenda. What will be will be, without or with the gospel.
Ok I'm gonna go make hair bows and quite worrying about people who are presaved and the lost are lost, no need to bother...except for my pal ambush.

Father in heaven, please give us come conviction on this, unless this is the end times when the devil causes great confusion amongst the believers.  In  60 years I never believed I was prechosen, I believed Jesus died for my sins and I said  yes, Lord yes, I accept that. Even if I ignored your knocking, I had nothing to worry about I was prechosen....I never knew that.....it's all a new thing to me, that I had no choice in the matter....not even 'just as I am'.


----------



## Ronnie T

ambush80 said:


> Ronnie T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Amen, rabbi.  I'll bring some extra hot sauce.
> 
> So much for discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "So much for discussion?"
> I haven't seen any real discussion from you in this serious thread.
> Nothing but silly stuff.
Click to expand...


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> John 3:16 is almost always the first verse thrown my way by will worshipers. They take the position that "world" means everybody (universal atonement). We know from Scripture that God does not love everybody. We do know that he loves his people (church, sheep, elect). The word "world" in John 3:16 refers to believers only, as it does in John 1:29; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.



WRONG!  Do some research.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I just talked to my daughter and back to the original post about my son in law.....he is still on this tulip kick and how special it makes him to be preselected and how much more he loves God (or feels special) because God chose him to be saved instead of being lost......sigh.
> 
> Ok then go play golf....and don't worry, God has it all preplanned and nothing that you can do will change that not even preaching the gospel. Don't take your children to church, they are either lost or saved....don't worry about it.
> 
> Please God help us...please!  The great commission is useless under a preselected predestination agenda. What will be will be, without or with the gospel.
> Ok I'm gonna go make hair bows and quite worrying about people who are presaved and the lost are lost, no need to bother...except for my pal ambush.
> 
> Father in heaven, please give us come conviction on this, unless this is the end times when the devil causes great confusion amongst the believers.  In  60 years I never believed I was prechosen, I believed Jesus died for my sins and I said  yes, Lord yes, I accept that. Even if I ignored your knocking, I had nothing to worry about I was prechosen....I never knew that.....it's all a new thing to me, that I had no choice in the matter....not even 'just as I am'.



I know what you're feeling.
That's what happens when people listen to other people rather than learning God's word.
It's tough to believe the truth when the lie is more comfortable.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I know what you're feeling.
> That's what happens when people listen to other people rather than learning God's word.
> It's tough to believe the truth when the lie is more comfortable.



OMGosh Ronnie, if our God doesn't love everybody, what hope does anybody have. We're on our own...God may or may not save us....that's like gambling that He will.

If I didn't know that I know that I know, I would be doubting my salvation, how do you know that you were chosen? how? you didn't choose Christ? did He choose you? but that really we chose each other. how do you know? only God is all knowing, you ain't. You chose to get baptized, how do you know that took? you chose it. Maybe God didn't chose it for you.

If we are known by our fruit, what fruit? I see people in bars who are joyful, longsuffering on drugs, loving everyone when they are high, peaceful when they are stoned, what fruit? 

Preaching the gospel is preaching to the choir, you're saved or not. Preaching the gospel won't change a thing...will it? What will it change...what will it accomplish?
You get a nugget in your crown?

Sheesh if I had known I was predestined to be saved no matter what, I woulda partied on until I was 90.....lol....wouldn't have made a difference would it? But no I'm out here preaching the gospel to people who don't wanna hear it and ripping me to pieces and for what...notta....nothing will help them...they're lost by preselection. Sheesh what a waste of time when I coulda been helping little children....geez


----------



## ambush80

Ronnie T said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> "So much for discussion?"
> I haven't seen any real discussion from you in this serious thread.
> Nothing but silly stuff.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've actually been having a very interesting discussion with everyone else.
Click to expand...


----------



## TimB

Predestination is easy to explain, a four year old can understand it. All those who receive Christ are predestined to go to heaven.  NO_ONE is predestined to receive Christ however.

The "Elect" are those who heard the call and answered it and they are predestined to glory.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> WRONG!  Do some research.




Apparently I have, in the content and context of Scripture, but thanks for your contribution.


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> Predestination is easy to explain, a four year old can understand it. All those who receive Christ are predestined to go to heaven.  NO_ONE is predestined to receive Christ however.
> 
> The "Elect" are those who heard the call and answered it and they are predestined to glory.




Using your logic then, all those who reject Christ are predestined to go to he11?


----------



## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> Using your logic then, all those who reject Christ are predestined to go to he11?



Where else would they go?


----------



## gemcgrew

stringmusic said:


> Where else would they go?



I am trying to understand his definition of predestined.


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> The "Elect" are those who heard the call and answered it and they are predestined to glory.



Agree


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Predestination is easy to explain, a four year old can understand it. All those who receive Christ are predestined to go to heaven.  NO_ONE is predestined to receive Christ however.
> 
> The "Elect" are those who heard the call and answered it and they are predestined to glory.




Exactly!!!

My whole point is we have to do something, we have to answer the call. But when I say that some will say I'm saying that that's giving myself credit for being part of my own salvation.

We either say yay or nay. That makes it our choice. God calls us all, not only part.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Exactly!!!
> 
> My whole point is we have to do something



And my whole point is you can't do anything. You are dead! Salvation is 100% God. Your response to being born again is a result of the gift of life and not how you acquired it.




mtnwoman said:


> we have to answer the call. But when I say that some will say I'm saying that that's giving myself credit for being part of my own salvation.



Well, if salvation is a result of something you did, of coarse you get the credit.



mtnwoman said:


> We either say yay or nay. That makes it our choice. God calls us all, not only part.



Again, if it is by your choice, it is accomplished by your hand. Without your saying yay or nay, it won't happen.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> John 3:16 is almost always the first verse thrown my way by will worshipers. They take the position that "world" means everybody (universal atonement). We know from Scripture that God does not love everybody. We do know that he loves his people (church, sheep, elect). The word "world" in John 3:16 refers to believers only, as it does in John 1:29; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.



So Go ye into all the world preaching the gospel doesn't mean go ye into all the world, it means just preach to the believers?

Poor missionaries have wasted their lives and time for years preaching the gospel for nothing.

And I know what you'll say.....since we don't know who will  be saved and nor who the believers will be then we need to preach the gospel to all.....why though? if they are predestined to be saved they will be, like you said God is sovereign, if they're gonna be saved no matter what why waste missionary lives?

WOW just wow! What a twisted doctrine.

And of course people are gonna use John 3:16 as a sword most of us were saved based on believing that very verse. 

you explained world, please explain whosoever
and then explain God is not a respector of persons

I am saved I am of the elect now. I believe everyone can be of the elect and you don't. Like my son in law said, it makes you more special to know that you have been chosen over others to be hand picked by God to be of the elect. That hurts my heart for him to even think that God would chose for some to be lost without hope and not have a choice.
I know God knows who won't be saved but it's almost impossible for me to believe that He didn't have mercy and grace on them and it was His choice and not their choice....and they never had a chance in heck.


----------



## gtparts

*mtnwoman*

I think your point is well taken. My response to gemcgrew is similar in idea, but worded slightly different.

gemcgrew,

The essence of being "elect", according to your understanding and posts, appears (to me) to indicate that the "preselected" have no reason to be concerned about their personal sin. 
To my mind, it seems that you are saying that sinners who are "elect" are going to heaven regardless of whether they repent or not. Now, I know that can never be, based on Scripture.  Only the forgiven (the redeemed) will be there, having confessed and repented and believing the work of Jesus on the cross and Him as personal Lord and savior. 

To ease anyone's mind, I believe in election, just not as you and John Calvin define it. I think there is a mystery as to how the verses you offered MUST agree with the ones posted by mtnwoman. Do I understand exactly how that can be? No, not really. But, I do believe that we (both sides of this theological question) are at least, in part, wrong. Otherwise, we would be in agreement. 

God, grant us the grace to lay this at the foot of the cross and walk away, not beating each other over the head for the sake of being right. Amen.


----------



## hawglips

mtnwoman said:


> OT people were saved by works, we are saved by grace and mercy and we have to believe John 3:16.



OT folks were saved by the same grace you are saved by.  The difference is that the Israelites before Christ were obligated to obey the laws revealed by Moses -- including the blood sacrifices -- which pointed to the great and final sacrifice of Christ on the cross.  

As Paul taught, Abraham was saved by his faith, not the blood sacrifices or circumcision -- because it was his faith that led him to obey the law of sacrifice.


----------



## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> I think your point is well taken. My response to gemcgrew is similar in idea, but worded slightly different.
> 
> gemcgrew,
> 
> The essence of being "elect", according to your understanding and posts, appears (to me) to indicate that the "preselected" have no reason to be concerned about their personal sin.
> To my mind, it seems that you are saying that sinners who are "elect" are going to heaven regardless of whether they repent or not. Now, I know that can never be, based on Scripture.  Only the forgiven (the redeemed) will be there, having confessed and repented and believing the work of Jesus on the cross and Him as personal Lord and savior.
> 
> To ease anyone's mind, I believe in election, just not as you and John Calvin define it. I think there is a mystery as to how the verses you offered MUST agree with the ones posted by mtnwoman. Do I understand exactly how that can be? No, not really. But, I do believe that we (both sides of this theological question) are at least, in part, wrong. Otherwise, we would be in agreement.
> 
> God, grant us the grace to lay this at the foot of the cross and walk away, not beating each other over the head for the sake of being right. Amen.



Honestly GT, I'm not trying to prove I'm right for personal reasons. Because I know this isn't salvation rendering on anyone's part that is already saved....but I'm concerned for folks like ambush, who may think differently, and obviously doesn't agree with me. I want ambush or any other unsaved person that may lurk and never post that they can be saved by accepting Christ and not saved by preselection by God, even though God does know ultimately what they will choose....God gives them the mercy and grace He extends to all, and everyone can choose.


----------



## gtparts

mtnwoman said:


> Honestly GT, I'm not trying to prove I'm right for personal reasons. Because I know this isn't salvation rendering on anyone's part that is already saved....but I'm concerned for folks like ambush, who may think differently, and obviously doesn't agree with me. I want ambush or any other unsaved person that may lurk and never post that they can be saved by accepting Christ and not saved by preselection by God, even though God does know ultimately what they will choose....God gives them the mercy and grace He extends to all, and everyone can choose.



I appreciate your concern that election might be regarded as exclusion by God, without an opportunity for each to respond to His calling. Like you (and based on Scripture), I believe that God would have all be redeemed, IF they will be saved according to His plan of salvation. It is apparent that some have heard the Gospel, rejected it, and entered eternity unsaved. This fact and the Great Commission should make us all focused on the need to bear witness to the lost, our definition of "elect" not withstanding. My prayer is that Mr. 80 will one day seek a saving relationship with Jesus, as is yours.
We should work diligently to bring all to the point of salvation, but only the Holy Spirit can cause each to "cross that line". I am confident that if we do our assignment, He can and will do what He promised.

Grace and peace to you.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Honestly GT, I'm not trying to prove I'm right for personal reasons. Because I know this isn't salvation rendering on anyone's part that is already saved....but I'm concerned for folks like ambush, who may think differently, and obviously doesn't agree with me. I want ambush or any other unsaved person that may lurk and never post that they can be saved by accepting Christ and not saved by preselection by God, even though God does know ultimately what they will choose....God gives them the mercy and grace He extends to all, and everyone can choose.



Thank you for your concern Annie, but I don't believe in predestination or fate.

I do wish for you that you to be able to reconcile the portion in blue.  I'm quite certain that you'll just have to "lay it at the foot of the cross" as GT suggested; meaning "stop trying to make it make sense".  Trust and obey.


----------



## Ronnie T

The apostle Paul's prayer was that all his countrymen (fellow Jews) would come to accept the truth of Jesus as the Christ so that they could be saved.
That should be all of our prayers.

Again, read the entire chapter 2 of Ephesians.  Salvation is for all us gentiles who will believe in Jesus Christ.
"Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> The essence of being "elect", according to your understanding and posts, appears (to me) to indicate that the "preselected" have no reason to be concerned about their personal sin.



Prior to regeneration, they have no ability, they are dead. Christ makes chosen redeemed sinners new creatures (new man) with a new heart.



gtparts said:


> To my mind, it seems that you are saying that sinners who are "elect" are going to heaven regardless of whether they repent or not.



Thank God that He grants repentance! Repenting is a result of salvation and not how you acquire it. My Savior did not say that he died so that I could tell sinners to repent. He tells us that he died that we might proclaim repentance. There is a difference.


----------



## ambush80

gtparts said:


> I appreciate your concern that election might be regarded as exclusion by God, without an opportunity for each to respond to His calling. Like you (and based on Scripture), I believe that God would have all be redeemed, IF they will be saved according to His plan of salvation. It is apparent that some have heard the Gospel, rejected it, and entered eternity unsaved. This fact and the Great Commission should make us all focused on the need to bear witness to the lost, our definition of "elect" not withstanding. My prayer is that Mr. 80 will one day seek a saving relationship with Jesus, as is yours.
> We should work diligently to bring all to the point of salvation, but only the Holy Spirit can cause each to "cross that line". I am confident that if we do our assignment, He can and will do what He promised.
> 
> Grace and peace to you.



Unless Ambush is not gonna. (He knows).


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Unless Ambush is not gonna. (He knows).



And that may very well be the case. You may be one of those that Christ refused to even pray for. But I can promise you this, if you are one of his sheep, he is going to wake you up at a time and place of his choosing.

BTW, I enjoy reading your post. Reminds me of myself not too long ago.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> One more question and it should be a short answer....what did you believe when you chose salvation? Or whatever, I know you didn't choose, but what happened when it dawned on you that were saved and then got baptized? Did you choose to get baptized? Why be baptized if you're preselected to be saved?
> 
> Just answer those questions...no scripture please...just your personal testimony...oh you don't have a testimony, well just when it dawned on you....or whatever.



I was raised in a free will Baptist Church. As with most, John 3:16 was the first verse memorized and “Jesus loves me this I know! For the Bible tells me so” was probably the first learned song. Sunday consisted of Sunday school, worship service, training union and evening service. Wednesday was evening prayer service followed by Thursday soul winning. From childhood, I was taught how to be, how to look like and how to act like a Christian. If that wasn’t enough, the preacher would brow beat us from the pulpit with all the dos and don’ts that go along with legalism. We learned how to win souls for Christ by walking someone down the roman road and helping them with a sinner’s prayer.  When I was 10 or 11 yrs old I learned about the rapture! Couldn’t sleep for several nights and pulled out a lot of hair from the back of my head, out of fear of waking up to an empty house, all of my family gone. Out of this fear of the rapture and going to he11, I asked Christ numerous times to forgive me of my sins and save me. Nothing happened! 

Parents decided to put me in a Baptist Christian School when I was 15. I remember in chapel service on a Wednesday morning, a guest speaker preached to us about the suffering in he11. Kindergarten through 2nd grade along with several older students went down the aisle to be saved and avoid such an end. All those years I had to endure the question “Are you saved”? Me “No” them “why not” me ‘I don’t know”. In my eyes I was a good person. I didn’t cuss, smoke, drink or dance. If I had a bad thought, I would immediately ask forgiveness. I was probably living a cleaner life than all the professing Christians around me. 

At the age of 16, our youth director found out I had never been baptized or had made a profession of faith. After service one Wednesday evening, he asked my dad if I could help him move a desk in his office. When I entered his office, he locked me in and insisted that I listen to a tape recording of Jack Hyles leading someone to Jesus. When the tape was finished, he asked me if I wanted to go to Heaven. “Yes” I responded. “Well then” he said. “All you have to do is say the sinner’s prayer and ask Jesus into your heart”.  “But I have done that several times before” I told him. “Well, repeat after me” he said. I did. When we finished the prayer, he asked me if I felt any different and I told him no. He then tells me I am saved and for me never to doubt it or let anybody tell me different. I was baptized pretty soon after that.

At the age of 26, God stripped me from everything I was counting on in regards to salvation. In a very short period of time, everything about me that I thought made me a good person and a Christian was taken away. Only then did I give up to just go on with my life.

But God (Two of my favorite words), who is rich in mercy and grace, gave me spiritual life and I saw, with new eyes, my condition and heard, with new ears, the Gospel for the very first time. I responded as Lazarus did and left the grave. I had been exposed to preaching my entire life but did not have ears to hear. It could not have come at a better time. God’s timing is perfect!

It is because of that early abusive, religious teaching of freewill works religion and universal atonement that I will continue to expose it for what it is. Deceit at the very core.


----------



## Big7

gemcgrew said:


> John 3:16 is almost always the first verse thrown my way by will worshipers. They take the position that "world" means everybody (universal atonement). We know from Scripture that God does not love everybody. We do know that he loves his people (church, sheep, elect). The word "world" in John 3:16 refers to believers only, as it does in John 1:29; 3:17; 6:33; 12:47 1 Cor. 4:9; 2 Cor. 5:19.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He will have mercy upon whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Rom 9:18
> 
> 
> 
> You have no desire or ability to choose Him because you are dead, D-E-A-D, dead. His chosen are given the gift of life! Only then do they respond.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not sure where that came from.
> 
> 
> 
> It wouldn't do either one of us any good for me to prove it to you.
> 
> 
> 
> No they don't



Stay off the meds? Do what You want. We will do it our way.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Why be baptized if you're preselected to be saved?



Sorry, I missed this one. If I am overlooking your questions, it is not intentional. 

The reason I was baptized was to be obedient to God. It was my outward confession of my inward condition.


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> Stay off the meds? Do what You want. We will do it our way.



That is to your peril.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> So Go ye into all the world preaching the gospel doesn't mean go ye into all the world, it means just preach to the believers?



The word "world" in the context of this scripture is not the same as in John 3:16. 

The word translated “world” (kosmos) is used in many ways, and its meaning must be determined by the way it is used.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> you explained world, please explain whosoever



There is a remnant scattered throughout world who are loved of God and He is determined to save. God so loved those people that he gave his Son to redeem them. Who are they? "Whosoever believeth in him!"

I understand whosoever will (sheep) and I also understand whosoever won't (goats)


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> The word "world" in the context of this scripture is not the same as in John 3:16.
> 
> The word translated “world” (kosmos) is used in many ways, and its meaning must be determined by the way it is used.




John 3:16............. "World"......  (Greek usage)

kosmos: order, the world
Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: kosmos
Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
Short Definition: the world, universe
Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.

http://biblos.com/john/3-16.htm

http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm

.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Sorry, I missed this one. If I am overlooking your questions, it is not intentional. *I know there's a lot of info here and long posts.*
> 
> The reason I was baptized was to be obedient to God. It was my outward confession of my inward condition. *Well we agree on that....Oh happy day!!!*


----------



## Ronnie T

The same is found for Mark 16:15  "God ye into all the world and preach......."

http://biblos.com/mark/16-15.htm

.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I was raised in a free will Baptist Church. As with most, John 3:16 was the first verse memorized and “Jesus loves me this I know! For the Bible tells me so” was probably the first learned song. Sunday consisted of Sunday school, worship service, training union and evening service. Wednesday was evening prayer service followed by Thursday soul winning. From childhood, I was taught how to be, how to look like and how to act like a Christian. If that wasn’t enough, the preacher would brow beat us from the pulpit with all the dos and don’ts that go along with legalism. We learned how to win souls for Christ by walking someone down the roman road and helping them with a sinner’s prayer.  When I was 10 or 11 yrs old I learned about the rapture! Couldn’t sleep for several nights and pulled out a lot of hair from the back of my head, out of fear of waking up to an empty house, all of my family gone. Out of this fear of the rapture and going to he11, I asked Christ numerous times to forgive me of my sins and save me. Nothing happened!
> 
> Parents decided to put me in a Baptist Christian School when I was 15. I remember in chapel service on a Wednesday morning, a guest speaker preached to us about the suffering in he11. Kindergarten through 2nd grade along with several older students went down the aisle to be saved and avoid such an end. All those years I had to endure the question “Are you saved”? Me “No” them “why not” me ‘I don’t know”. In my eyes I was a good person. I didn’t cuss, smoke, drink or dance. If I had a bad thought, I would immediately ask forgiveness. I was probably living a cleaner life than all the professing Christians around me.
> 
> At the age of 16, our youth director found out I had never been baptized or had made a profession of faith. After service one Wednesday evening, he asked my dad if I could help him move a desk in his office. When I entered his office, he locked me in and insisted that I listen to a tape recording of Jack Hyles leading someone to Jesus. When the tape was finished, he asked me if I wanted to go to Heaven. “Yes” I responded. “Well then” he said. “All you have to do is say the sinner’s prayer and ask Jesus into your heart”.  “But I have done that several times before” I told him. “Well, repeat after me” he said. I did. When we finished the prayer, he asked me if I felt any different and I told him no. He then tells me I am saved and for me never to doubt it or let anybody tell me different. I was baptized pretty soon after that.
> 
> At the age of 26, God stripped me from everything I was counting on in regards to salvation. In a very short period of time, everything about me that I thought made me a good person and a Christian was taken away. Only then did I give up to just go on with my life.
> 
> But God (Two of my favorite words), who is rich in mercy and grace, gave me spiritual life and I saw, with new eyes, my condition and heard, with new ears, the Gospel for the very first time. I responded as Lazarus did and left the grave. I had been exposed to preaching my entire life but did not have ears to hear. It could not have come at a better time. God’s timing is perfect!
> 
> It is because of that early abusive, religious teaching of freewill works religion and universal atonement that I will continue to expose it for what it is. Deceit at the very core.



My testimony is very similar. Except I wasn't brow beaten. I felt Christ really tugging at my heart when I was 12 and surrendered to Him. Got baptized. Southern Baptist, at the time and not much heckfire and brimstone, just a grandmother that was such a sweet example of our Lord. 

I got lost a short period after that and stayed lost for some 30 yrs, and yes I lived in darkness just like Lazurus. Then one morning, I awoke and said Oh Lord, please help me, I can't do this any more...prolly the hundreth time I had said that after a rough night out. He scouped me up from behind/under the rock I was hiding and brought His lost lamb home. I was never lost to Him, He always knew where I was. I was His since I was 12. I didn't even know how lost I was. I never denied Him throughout all those years, looking back I merely hid from Him, He knew where I was.

Back to finish, satan was shooting darts and shut my computer down....lol.

I know God was calling me at a young age or at least I believe He was, calling me to be a missionary, I didn't want to do that. I ran far away I didn't want to leave my mama. That's the only thing I knew what to do to get away from that calling. It beared down on my spirit daily for 3 or 4 years...finally I just left the church around 17, which isn't uncommon anyway. Broke my grandmother's heart.  

I never became a missionary as such, at least not to another country. And I'm too old now. But I still believe that was my calling and it's a big regret and I ask for forgiveness everyday.  It's almost all I can do to restrain myself from going to Austrailia now...maybe I should.


Enough from Ramblin Rose


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> And that may very well be the case. You may be one of those that Christ refused to even pray for. But I can promise you this, if you are one of his sheep, he is going to wake you up at a time and place of his choosing.
> 
> BTW, I enjoy reading your post. Reminds me of myself not too long ago.




But if I ain't, then He won't.  Too bad for me , huh?  Remember me when you're walking on streets of gold.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> But if I ain't, then He won't.  Too bad for me , huh?  Remember me when you're walking on streets of gold.



Oh love, you have a choice. It may seem like there's a lot to it with all of us on here, but really it is simple, the most simple thing you could ever do. You don't have to know the Bible or understand it. God is your spiritual guide and He leads you all the way. Your personality doesn't even change....you may not cuss any more stuff like that. But you don't just become another person, you just become a reborn you, as if you renewed as the babe you were born as. 

Rev.3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I'll be lookin' to walk with you on the shores of heaven.


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> But if I ain't, then He won't.  Too bad for me , huh?



Yes



ambush80 said:


> Remember me when you're walking on streets of gold.



No


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> The same is found for Mark 16:15  "God ye into all the world and preach......."
> 
> http://biblos.com/mark/16-15.htm
> 
> .



Amen!!

I can't go far, but I can get to GA from here!!!  lol


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> John 3:16............. "World"......  (Greek usage)
> 
> kosmos: order, the world
> Original Word: κόσμος, ου, ὁ
> Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
> Transliteration: kosmos
> Phonetic Spelling: (kos'-mos)
> Short Definition: the world, universe
> Definition: the world, universe; worldly affairs; the inhabitants of the world; adornment.
> 
> http://biblos.com/john/3-16.htm
> 
> http://concordances.org/greek/2889.htm
> 
> .



Ronnie, the same for John 17:9. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Using kosmos the same as in John 3:16, according to you, it would read "I pray for them: I pray not for everybody, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."

Correct?


----------



## TimB

gem, I'm confused by a couple of your statements that appear to be contradictory. Please clear this up for me

In the quote below and in couple of other places (but I'll only use this one example) you state that it is impossible for us (dead in our sins as we once were) to seek out God or his salvation;



gemcgrew said:


> You have no desire or ability to choose Him because you are dead, D-E-A-D, dead. His chosen are given the gift of life! Only then do they respond.



And yet in your own testimony or at least this part of it you state that multiple times in your own life you yourself sought salvation, prayed the sinners prayer etc etc. ;



gemcgrew said:


> Out of this fear of the rapture and going to he11, *I asked Christ numerous times to forgive me of my sins and save me.* Nothing happened!
> 
> 
> 
> “Well then” he said. “All you have to do is say the sinner’s prayer and ask Jesus into your heart”.  *“But I have done that several times before” I told him. *



How is it that you sought out God's salvation several times before you were actually called by and saved by God when you were "Dead, D-E-A-D, dead" ?

  Also if you could please explain the following, you yourself said you were familiar with and had been taught the "Roman road" but did not explain how it fits with your belief or why it is wrong if that is what you think. 

 It says;



> Romans 10:9
> If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
> 
> Romans 10:10
> For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.



Does this description not tell us that there are actions we must take BEFORE we are saved making our salvation at least in part dependent on prior action on our part? 

 It clearly says _IF_ we declare with our mouth AND _believe_ in our heart we will be saved. The converse of which is that if we do NOT do those things we will NOT be saved. But in any case it does appear to me that there are certain actions we must take while still being "dead" in order for us to become _un_dead. 




> It is because of that early abusive, religious teaching of freewill works religion and universal atonement that I will continue to expose it for what it is. Deceit at the very core.




I certainly agree that you were subjected to abusive treatment by over zealous people in your youth. It is unfortunate that things like that happen. My own upbringing while not as severe as yours was very similar, restrictive, legalistic and with lots of fear and guilt bestowed upon me. It was the old "Hellfire and brimstone, get saved and live right or burn" technique. 

 My folks were well meaning and loved me they were just wrong in their delivery of God's word because that was how they themselves had been taught. 

 But their misapplication of the word and the truth  did not negate the fact that it was indeed true. Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- exists, the rapture WILL take place and we MUST be born again if we are to enter the kingdom of God. 

 You seem to think that because the doctrine of salvation was misapplied  it makes the doctrine itself a lie. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

 Also (moving along) you said you prayed the prayer of salvation and "nothing happened". How could you possibly know that? What, did you think the heavens would open and the angels would sing and you would be instantly transformed somehow? 

 Salvation is by _Faith_, it's not a feeling. When you pray the sinners prayer following the biblical instruction you receive salvation by faith in God's word. The word says "if you do A,B, & C, you WILL be saved". 

 Some people have dramatic experiences at the time they pray they repent and pray the sinners prayer. Most do not, but that doesn't mean "nothing happened". Plenty happened, in the spirit world. First your sins are all forgiven from that moment on, second your spirit man is renewed in its ability to fellowship with God, the Spirit of Christ comes to live in your heart and your name is written in the Lamb's Book of life.

 So your statement that "nothing happened" may or may not be true. Regardless of what our perception was at the time, you could have been saved right then but your expectation that some grandiose thing was supposed to happen disappointed you and made you _think_ nothing happened. 

 OR maybe nothing really did happen because you were asking amiss (James 4:3). 

One final question if you don't mind, you were very brief and non-descriptive about your actual (according to you) salvation experience in comparison with your detailed story of your spiritually abusive upbringing. Could you elaborate on that experience just a bit? 

 I'd like to know how in your mind it was that you came to be "called" and how you responded. How you "knew" you were finally saved . etc. Because based on the doctrine you've outlined about predestination I'm really foggy on just how that is supposed to take place.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> No



Wow....that's cold!


----------



## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, the same for John 17:9. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
> 
> Using kosmos the same as in John 3:16, according to you, it would read "I pray for them: I pray not for everybody, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
> 
> Correct?




Correct. Jesus was praying for a specific group of men, his followers, AND _all_ who would later believe on him because of their word and testimony (verse 20). 

 The fact that he is praying for those that are "his" here and not the world at large in no way makes the word "world" in Jn. 3:16 indicative only of believers. "World" still _means_ world, world at large. 

 Jesus died for the world that the world through him might be saved. 

 If I write Jn 3:16 to fit YOUR doctrine with the word world meaning only believers it would have to read something like this;



> 16  For God so loved his own, that he gave his only begotten Son, that his own should not perish, but have everlasting life.




*Wut?*

If they were already his own (believers, as you said) why did he need to send Jesus to die for them?


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB, great questions and deserving of an answer. I will try to address it tomorrow.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, the same for John 17:9. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
> 
> Using kosmos the same as in John 3:16, according to you, it would read "I pray for them: I pray not for everybody, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
> 
> Correct?



Well that leaves us out, we were not around then. The gentiles weren't saved then or even grafted into the vine then, I'm a gentile...He couldn'tve been talkin' about me. At that time, the Jews were still God's chosen, not us. Paul was the tool that was used to graft in the dogs who were the rest of the world...usn's


----------



## TimB

mtnwoman said:


> Wow....that's cold!



You're right Annie and that is a fundamental problem I see with that doctrine of predestination. Some of its adherents exhibit an extreme air of superiority and appear unfeeling and "cold" towards others. 

 It's a "well you can't get to heaven unless you're called anyway and whether you are or not is predetermined and nothing I do matters or can change anything so to heck with you" type attitude. 

And that just seems contrary to the Spirit of Christ to me.


----------



## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> TimB, great questions and deserving of an answer. I will try to address it tomorrow.



Just "Tim" will be fine if you prefer and I'll look forward to your response. I know it was a lengthy post and may take time to address in full. 

 Also I may not have much time on here tomorrow, depends on what time your post goes up but I'll definately read and respond as time permits. 




mtnwoman said:


> Well that leaves us out, we were not around then. The gentiles weren't saved then or even grafted into the vine then, I'm a gentile...He couldn'tve been talkin' about me. At that time, the Jews were still God's chosen, not us. Paul was the tool that was used to graft in the dogs who were the rest of the world...usn's




Actually Annie, Jesus was praying for us too, in Jn. 17:20 Jesus says; 



> 20 Neither pray I for these alone, *but for them also which shall believe on me through their word*;




That's you and me! Their word and testimony was written and passed along through the ages and it is because of them and their word that we believed. It's because of their record the Gospel was preached  and perpetuated through out the ages.


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Actually Annie, Jesus was praying for us too, in Jn. 17:20 Jesus says;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's you and me! Their word and testimony was written and passed along through the ages and it is because of them and their word that we believed. It's because of their record the Gospel was preached  and perpetuated through out the ages.



Yes, I agree.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Ronnie, the same for John 17:9. "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
> 
> Using kosmos the same as in John 3:16, according to you, it would read "I pray for them: I pray not for everybody, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine."
> 
> Correct?



Correct.  In the language in which it's provided, you're correct.


----------



## Big7

gemcgrew said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> No



I'll call "bull crap" on that one.


----------



## Big7

GO LOOK HERE:
http://www.saintaquinas.com/christian_comparison.html

Might help you understand you're the nut. Not the rest of the flock


----------



## mtnwoman

Big7 said:


> I'll call "bull crap" on that one.



That along with no mercy or grace from the God I worship. If we are to be like Christ aren't we to have mercy and give grace to others?....how is saying, too bad, so sad being like Christ? 
I know my mind has been blown for years...but this really tops anything I've ever heard.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Wow....that's cold!



Cold? Why in the world when I am in the presence of my Redeemer, praising and supping with Him would I want to remember ambush80?


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> I'll call "bull crap" on that one.



Do you not understand ambush80's condition? And if he dies in that condition, God gets glory in casting him into he11?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Cold? Why in the world when I am in the presence of my Redeemer, praising and supping with Him would I want to remember ambush80?



Why in the world when you are sinful and yet still in the presence of your redeemer and He forgives you that you wouldn't remember the great commission that your redeemer ask you to relay to the world...and that you could take on the composer of Jesus  and not judge others?
WWJD about ambush...forget?....OMGosh

Did you ever think that you might've been hard headed and you needed heck fire and brimstone to bring you to your knees? just like ambush. It made you do it didn't it? How do you know that all that head banging didn't bring you to Christ, especially if you don't have your own will...remember? You had a free will to run away didn't you? You had a free will to come back?  Of course you resented it, we all resent things God puts us thru to bring us to our knees.  Whatever happened to you when you were younger ultimately brought you to Him. I believe that. But your free will...ya know....took you away...it's free will that takes us there and brings us back. Kinda like that prodigal son, does that ring a bell?

It's an action on our part that makes us one of the elect, not that we save ourself, but that we surrender to Him....and that's all He wants all of us to do, is to surrender/obey to Him. Ya know...to obey is an action, that means doing something, responding/accepting/agreeing/yes Lord yes.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Why in the world when you are sinful and yet still in the presence of your redeemer and He forgives you that you wouldn't remember the great commission that your redeemer ask you to relay to the world...and that you could take on the composer of Jesus  and not judge others?
> WWJD about ambush...forget?....OMGosh



Go back and read his post. He asked me to remember him when I am in heaven.



mtnwoman said:


> Did you ever think that you might've been hard headed and you needed heck fire and brimstone to bring you to your knees? just like ambush. It made you do it didn't it?



No! and again No! The Holy Spirit made me do it!




mtnwoman said:


> How do you know that all that head banging didn't bring you to Christ, especially if you don't have your own will...remember? You had a free will to run away didn't you? You had a free will to come back?



No! "Therefore, behold, I will hedge up thy way with thorns, and make a wall, that she shall not find her paths." Hosea 2:6 Is that free will? Free will does not exist with a sovereign God.



mtnwoman said:


> Of course you resented it, we all resent things God puts us thru to bring us to our knees.



I do not resent it, I rest in it. I wouldn't change it if I could. It was the path chosen for me by God. 





mtnwoman said:


> It's an action on our part that makes us one of the elect, not that we save ourself



Which is it? You say it is an action on your part that saves you but then you say you don't save yourself. God will not save you without an action by you is what you are saying? Do you understand what you are saying? That what separates you from the souls in He11 is a decision by you. Could it be that all you have is works by your hand? Why are you so offended by "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9-11





mtnwoman said:


> but that we surrender to Him....and that's all He wants all of us to do, is to surrender/obey to Him. Ya know...to obey is an action, that means doing something, responding/accepting/agreeing/yes Lord yes.




And you can't until you are born again!


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> Might help you understand you're the nut.



Could it be that you are in the broadway, glancing over at the narrow way, saying "Look at that nut over there all by himself"?


----------



## gemcgrew

Mtnwoman,

In regards to your son in law, if he has the same Light as I do, you will have no common ground. It is the same with me and my mother in law. And it must be the same for me and my mother, father, sister and brothers (Luke 14:26).The God you serve who loves everybody too much to interfere with their will and the Christ who shed his blood for everybody but God still holds some of them accountable for those sins, does not exist for me.


----------



## ambush80

For what it's worth, I think Gemcrew really understands the nature of omniscience and fate and God's plan.

That's what it says.  

If you are not of the word then you are of you know who.


----------



## hummerpoo

ambush80 said:


> For what it's worth, I think Gemcrew really understands the nature of omniscience and fate and God's plan.
> 
> That's what it says.
> 
> If you are not of the word than you are of you know who.



Ambush, my emotions are stirred by what I percieve as wisdom, and perhaps understanding, that the mind of man can not achieve.

Job 28
12.  "But where can wisdom be found? And where is the place of understanding?
 13.  "Man does not know its value, Nor is it found in the land of the living.
 14.  "The deep says, 'It is not in me'; And the sea says, 'It is not with me.'
 15.  "Pure gold cannot be given in exchange for it, Nor can silver be weighed as its price.
 16.  "It cannot be valued in the gold of Ophir, In precious onyx, or sapphire.
 17.  "Gold or glass cannot equal it, Nor can it be exchanged for articles of fine gold.
 18.  "Coral and crystal are not to be mentioned; And the acquisition of wisdom is above {that of} pearls.
 19.  "The topaz of Ethiopia cannot equal it, Nor can it be valued in pure gold.
 20.  "Where then does wisdom come from? And where is the place of understanding?
 21.  "Thus it is hidden from the eyes of all living And concealed from the birds of the sky.
 22.  "Abaddon and Death say, 'With our ears we have heard a report of it.'
 23.  "God understands its way, And He knows its place.
 24.  "For He looks to the ends of the earth And sees everything under the heavens.
 25.  "When He imparted weight to the wind And meted out the waters by measure,
 26.  When He set a limit for the rain And a course for the thunderbolt,
 27.  Then He saw it and declared it; He established it and also searched it out.
 28.  "And to man He said, 'Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; And to depart from evil is understanding.' "


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Mtnwoman,
> 
> In regards to your son in law, if he has the same Light as I do, you will have no common ground. It is the same with me and my mother in law. And it must be the same for me and my mother, father, sister and brothers (Luke 14:26).The God you serve who loves everybody too much to interfere with their will and the Christ who shed his blood for everybody but God still holds some of them accountable for those sins, does not exist for me.



My son in law is 45, he just resently began to get caught up in this. He's done this before on other things......he once tried to convince us that as long as we kept praying for forgiveness for our sins we were keeping Jesus on the cross. He'll come to his senses. We haven't even talked about it since I opened this thread. I won't argue with him about it. He talks down to me....I guess that's part of what he thinks makes him so 'special'.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Which is it? You say it is an action on your part that saves you but then you say you don't save yourself.*The action I'm talking about is responding to the calling, respond is an action. That's why I ask you since you said we can't do an action, when did it just dawn on you that were saved, since you didn't have or couldn't do anything.* God will not save you without an action by you is what you are saying?*Without me accepting/saying yes/respond i* Do you understand what you are saying? That what separates you from the souls in He11 is a decision by you.*Of course I accepted the gift offered to me, that was me responding, that's what I did different than the ones in hades. Again I ask you how did you realize you were saved without any action of response/accepting salvation? Did it just dawn on you all of a sudden?* Could it be that all you have is works by your hand? Why are you so offended*Who said I was offeneded?? Please don't continue to imagine I'm saying things that I not saying.* by "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." Isaiah 46:9-11
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you can't until you are born again! *But I can't be born again, because I can't do any action by responding or accepting....how did you know that all of a sudden you were born again? Remember there can be no action on your part, and responding is an action, the only action I took, that you condemn me for.*



Annie


----------



## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not understand ambush80's condition? And if he dies in that condition, God gets glory in casting him into he11?




 I must have missed the scripture that says God takes glory in casting people into he11, could you please guide me to it? 

 This one here is the one I've kind of been relying on;



> 2 Peter 3:9
> 
> 
> 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you,* not wanting anyone to perish*, but *everyone* to come to repentance.






			
				gemcgrew said:
			
		

> Mtnwoman,
> 
> In regards to your son in law, if he has the same Light as I do, you will have no common ground. It is the same with me and my mother in law. And it must be the same for me and my mother, father, sister and brothers (Luke 14:26).The God you serve who loves everybody too much to interfere with their will and the Christ who shed his blood for everybody but God still holds some of them accountable for those sins, does not exist for me.



Excuse me but are you saying that Mtnwoman (and I presume myself and others who disagree with the Calvinist view) is not saved? This is certainly what it sounds like if you think she serves a different God than you do. 

 Wasn't there something in the Bible about us not judging others? Seems to me there was.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Cold? Why in the world when I am in the presence of my Redeemer, praising and supping with Him would I want to remember ambush80?



Why do you think Christ should want to remember you?

We will still all be judged for our works. What about preaching the gospel? the great commission? You don't have to do any of that? It dawned on you one day that you were saved by no action on your part and that's that....you're saved and you ain't gotta do anything that Christ wants you to do. I do believe that you're still saved whether you preach the gospel or not or whether you forgive others or not and I know for sure none of us are sinless except for being under the blood. I do believe that if you're saved you're saved and I believed God woos each of us to Him. Nothing we can do to get to be with Him but expressing the desire to do so. By saying yes, in our heart or outloud. By responding to His calling, or by believing....nothing else we can do. I've never said I was saved by works....I'm probably on the low end of works compared to many people.

But when Jesus knocked and I let Him into my heart, I was saved. I thank Him everyday for offering me that salvation and I thank God everyday that Jesus died for my sins and I thank Him that I can't or didn't have to do anything to become His, and I thank Him for giving me enough sense to murmur yes Lord yes. I thank Him for making it that easy for all of us. I don't believe that we could do enough works to save ourselves....nothing we can do except to believe that Christ is who He says He is.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not understand ambush80's condition? And if he dies in that condition, God gets glory in casting him into he11?



Oh Lord have mercy on us!


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Why do you think Christ should want to remember you?
> 
> We will still all be judged for our works. What about preaching the gospel? the great commission? You don't have to do any of that? It dawned on you one day that you were saved by no action on your part and that's that....you're saved and you ain't gotta do anything that Christ wants you to do. I do believe that you're still saved whether you preach the gospel or not or whether you forgive others or not and I know for sure none of us are sinless except for being under the blood. I do believe that if you're saved you're saved and I believed God woos each of us to Him. Nothing we can do to get to be with Him but expressing the desire to do so. By saying yes, in our heart or outloud. By responding to His calling, or by believing....nothing else we can do. I've never said I was saved by works....I'm probably on the low end of works compared to many people.
> 
> But when Jesus knocked and I let Him into my heart, I was saved. I thank Him everyday for offering me that salvation and I thank God everyday that Jesus died for my sins and I thank Him that I can't or didn't have to do anything to become His, and I thank Him for giving me enough sense to murmur yes Lord yes. I thank Him for making it that easy for all of us. I don't believe that we could do enough works to save ourselves....nothing we can do except to believe that Christ is who He says He is.



Kind of weird to knock on EVERY door on the block, even the ones he already knows aren't buying.


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not understand ambush80's condition? And if he dies in that condition, God gets glory in casting him into he11?



This is my discernment of what the Good Book says as well.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> This is my discernment of what the Good Book says as well.



What scripture states anything to the effect that God wants glory from people perishing?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Kind of weird to knock on EVERY door on the block, even the ones he already knows aren't buying.



I thought you agreed that we don't think like God? He is the One that commands us to preach the gospel to the world. And even the TULIP calvinists agree that's because WE don't know who is or isn't saved. 

Even if God knows that you will or won't be saved Ambush, we, the saved, the elect are called to preach the gospel to you, because God may know but we don't.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Why do you think Christ should want to remember you?




Please go back and read the original post. Do you want to remember earthly things while you are in heaven?



mtnwoman said:


> We will still all be judged for our works. What about preaching the gospel? the great commission? You don't have to do any of that?




Of coarse and I do. I am doing it here in the forum at the moment.



mtnwoman said:


> I've never said I was saved by works....I'm probably on the low end of works compared to many people.
> 
> But when Jesus knocked and I let Him into my heart, I was saved.



Please read what you just said and tell me how you are not taking credit for your salvation.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> What scripture states anything to the effect that God wants glory from people perishing?



Not wants, gets. God is glorified in all of His creation. When Satan, fallen angels and unregenerate are sealed in he11 for eternity, who do you suppose gets the glory?


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> I must have missed the scripture that says God takes glory in casting people into he11, could you please guide me to it?



Please take a moment to look up the definition of "glory". I think you are attempting to replace it with the word "delight" or "pleasure".





TimB said:


> Excuse me but are you saying that Mtnwoman (and I presume myself and others who disagree with the Calvinist view) is not saved? This is certainly what it sounds like if you think she serves a different God than you do.



Where did I say anything about the Calvinist view?
Let me be clear. If you believe in a God that is not sovereign in all things or His will is subject to your will, then yes, you worship a different God.

If you believe in a Christ that died for all men, shed His blood for the sins of all men and satisfied the justice of God for all men. Yet some still perish, then yes, you worship a different Christ. 

How many times in the New Testament alone are we warned about false gods, Christ, teachers, prophets shepherds etc?  Does that not concern you of a real danger?

And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Matthew 24:4,5)

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (Matthew 24:21-24)

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Matthew 7:22,23)




TimB said:


> Wasn't there something in the Bible about us not judging others? Seems to me there was.



That does not mean that we are never to exercise judgment about anything. 

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thess. 5:21)


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Please take a moment to look up the definition of "glory". I think you are attempting to replace it with the word "delight" or "pleasure".
> 
> *To the glory of God means to me that His elect abide by His calling for us.....do you honestly think that everyone that is saved abides by God's calling for us, to preach the gospel, etc etc? His delight and His pleasure is for everyone to preach the gospel so everyone can be saved.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where did I say anything about the Calvinist view?
> Let me be clear. If you believe in a God that is not sovereign in all things or His will is subject to your will, then yes, you worship a different God.*Honestly, you never sin or do anything outside of God's will which makes you perfect? If so you're a first.*
> 
> If you believe in a Christ that died for all men, shed His blood for the sins of all men and satisfied the justice of God for all men. Yet some still perish, then yes, you worship a different Christ.
> 
> How many times in the New Testament alone are we warned about false gods, Christ, teachers, prophets shepherds etc?  Does that not concern you of a real danger?*Of course it does....that's exactly why I started this thread, because there is a merciless god and a graceless god that actually chooses from a babe that  someone should perish and he doesn't save by mercy he saves by predjudice.*
> 
> And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. (Matthew 24:4,5)
> 
> For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.*Exactly that's for those of us who are saved not just you....for ALL who are saved.* Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.*Amen on that....I've been of the elect for many years and I'm not fooled by anyone who doesn't agree with John 3:16* (Matthew 24:21-24)*Funny how you go off on another tangent that we're not even talking about. We all know there are false prophets....like John Calvin.*
> 
> Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
> And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.*Wow you're actually providing correct scripture that most of us already know. My son in law resently adopted this doctrine, he didn't always believe it....he is being tricked and tripped up by someone other than God. He was not saved based on this doctrine.* (Matthew 7:22,23)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That does not mean that we are never to exercise judgment about anything. *So on judgement it's your will be done......which is it?*
> 
> Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thess. 5:21)



Oh I'm holding fast to John 3:16 which is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.....throw it out if you like.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Not wants, gets. God is glorified in all of His creation. When Satan, fallen angels and unregenerate are sealed in he11 for eternity, who do you suppose gets the glory?



Gets glorified from who? Not from us according to you, at least that's what you said about ambush....so who is going to glorify God for the lost? 

I tell ya, you can twist one up.

And for the 94th time, how do you know you are saved? You didn't accept, respond, and baptism is only an act on an inner belief.....how did/do you know? It just dawned on you or what?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Oh I'm holding fast to John 3:16 which is part of the gospel of Jesus Christ.....throw it out if you like.



Throw it out? It is more precious to me than you can imagine.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Gets glorified from who? Not from us according to you, at least that's what you said about ambush....so who is going to glorify God for the lost?



I'm sorry but I have no idea what you just said. What did I say about ambush?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not understand ambush80's condition? And if he dies in that condition, God gets glory in casting him into he11?



this?


----------



## mtnwoman

So God gets the glory from whom?


----------



## mtnwoman

Speaking of my son in law. My daughter called me a little bit ago and said mama i've been crying all day about this subject and I said why. This isn't the first time but it's the worst time.

His sunday school class people and leader want to start a new church because of their belief I guess.

I told her a few weeks ago to mount up and fight back when people belittled her about her belief.
Today her husband said, well my wife Kimberly, says she had an emotional reaction when she accepted Christ and I didn't. 4 men, now that's  4 men standing up against a small 4ft11 woman and saying that an emotional reaction to salvation doesn't mean a thing.

Oh Lordy I'm glad I quit going there, because I would've leaped up and said well you better get used to being emotional because you're going to be glorifying God for eternity, and praising, and singing and be designated to play a harp...what the heck is wrong with this pic.

She said her hubs had been doing this for like 3 months. She had been beggin him to shape up a bush in their front window so she could see the children playing while he goes outta town, like to the beach to sell hear aids...adds up don't it?  or to see his bro in washington or his aunt in va beach....and he went home after church and cut the bush  down to the ground to hurt her....for what..? for his glorification of God. He's gone tonight to get their childen about an hour away at his parents and she said her eyes were so swollen she couldn't even see to go get herself a biscuit from bojangles after not eating all day. So much for taking your wife out to eat after church...he uses his comps from work to take all his buds out though during the week.  Yeah he's of Jesus....he's a good husband. And she doesn't want to fight in front of their children for fear they will run away from the church...and we know they will. 

I told her to come here, that I would undergird her and that others would, too. 

He has always had such a grandious attitude about himself that I'm not surprised he would get caught up into being part of the 'select'...or being part of the best ballteam on earth...NC State...season tickets and almost every tailgate...but dog out your wife. Course he only married my daughter to pay back his ex for leaving him for treating her the same way.

Please pray for me before....well just before.

WOW took me 20, min to get back on...debil done knocked me off line...ok where was I?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> So God gets the glory from whom?



God gets the glory from all of His creation!

The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works. 

Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalm 104:31,35)


----------



## SlappyTomato

mtnwoman said:


> Speaking of my son in law. My daughter called me a little bit ago and said mama i've been crying all day about this subject and I said why. This isn't the first time but it's the worst time.
> 
> His sunday school class people and leader want to start a new church because of their belief I guess.
> 
> I told her a few weeks ago to mount up and fight back when people belittled her about her belief.
> Today her husband said, well my wife Kimberly, says she had an emotional reaction when she accepted Christ and I didn't. 4 men, now that's  4 men standing up against a small 4ft11 woman and saying that an emotional reaction to salvation doesn't mean a thing.
> 
> Oh Lordy I'm glad I quit going there, because I would've leaped up and said well you better get used to being emotional because you're going to be glorifying God for eternity, and praising, and singing and be designated to play a harp...what the heck is wrong with this pic.
> 
> She said her hubs had been doing this for like 3 months. She had been beggin him to shape up a bush in their front window so she could see the children playing while he goes outta town, like to the beach to sell hear aids...adds up don't it?  or to see his bro in washington or his aunt in va beach....and he went home after church and cut the bush  down to the ground to hurt her....for what..? for his glorification of God. He's gone tonight to get their childen about an hour away at his parents and she said her eyes were so swollen she couldn't even see to go get herself a biscuit from bojangles after not eating all day. So much for taking your wife out to eat after church...he uses his comps from work to take all his buds out though during the week.  Yeah he's of Jesus....he's a good husband. And she doesn't want to fight in front of their children for fear they will run away from the church...and we know they will.
> 
> I told her to come here, that I would undergird her and that others would, too.
> 
> He has always had such a grandious attitude about himself that I'm not surprised he would get caught up into being part of the 'select'...or being part of the best ballteam on earth...NC State...season tickets and almost every tailgate...but dog out your wife. Course he only married my daughter to pay back his ex for leaving him for treating her the same way.
> 
> Please pray for me before....well just before.
> 
> WOW took me 20, min to get back on...debil done knocked me off line...ok where was I?



Just read this entire thread and mtnwoman the above post states it clearly, your problem is with the son in law more than election.  The greatest gift you can give your daughter is the same as all mother in laws~Please read Mark 10:6-9 and take it seriously.

New International Version (NIV)

6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,* 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.” 


Hate to post and run but somethings must not go unchallenged.*


----------



## TimB

SlappyTomato said:


> Just read this entire thread and mtnwoman the above post states it clearly, your problem is with the son in law more than election.  The greatest gift you can give your daughter is the same as all mother in laws~Please read Mark 10:6-9 and take it seriously.
> 
> New International Version (NIV)
> 
> 6 “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’[a] 7 ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife,* 8 and the two will become one flesh.’[c] So they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”
> 
> 
> Hate to post and run but somethings must not go unchallenged.*


*

Absolutely! It would be a sin of course for a mother to help a daughter who is being abused by her husband. Who doesn't know that? *


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Absolutely! It would be a sin of course for a mother to help a daughter who is being abused by her husband. Who doesn't know that?



Thanks Tim, that's correct.

But this thread, I'm sure you know isn't about my son in law, it's about the confusion that this belief causes, in lots of areas, and we know who the author of confusion is.

I still don't know how gems came to realize, he/she was saved, did you ever get an answer?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> God gets the glory from all of His creation!
> 
> The glory of the LORD shall endure for ever: the LORD shall rejoice in his works.
> 
> Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD. (Psalm 104:31,35)



No one denies the sinners will be consumed out of the earth, but if we have no free will, as you state, who's going to glorify God for selecting whom He wills to perish? like ambush for example. You are the one that said you wouldn't remember ambush, so how would you remember to glorify God for the lost ambush?

The glory will last forever of course, we all know that, no one said it wouldn't. Just wondering who will glorify God for the lost as you said to ambush....please answer a question for once will ya? and quit going off into something that you think none of us know about. We will all glorify God......but I'm asking you who will glorify God regarding the lost like ambush that you said you wouldn't even think about. Please please please answer just one question.

Who will glorify God for the lost if we don't even think about or remember the lost? Who?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> please answer a question for once will ya?



That is unfair and ridiculous at the same time. Any sensible person reading this thread will see that I am trying to keep up with and answer your questions. Some of them more than once.


----------



## TimB

mtnwoman said:


> Thanks Tim, that's correct.
> 
> But this thread, I'm sure you know isn't about my son in law, it's about the confusion that this belief causes, in lots of areas, and we know who the author of confusion is.
> 
> I still don't know how gems came to realize, he/she was saved, did you ever get an answer?



No, I'm still waiting for my answer Annie. He's posted several times but has not answered my most pointed questions and I don't wonder why. 

 The simple fact is that for someone who believes man is so sinful and depraved that he is totally incapable of answering the call of God has a really tough time explaining how _he_ answered the call of God. 

Also if one believes that God "predestined" everything then you have to believe that God created sin! He caused man to act a specific way knowing in advance what it would lead to.

Also, If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant and without repentance no one is saved! Repentance is an act that is required on our part _before_ we can be saved so since we are incapable of any act that would save ourselves or contribute to our own salvation NO ONE is saved!

If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be sinners. 

 Remember if God predestined everything then he predestined Adam to sin so how can man be at fault? 

 The TULIP Calvinism breaks down to total illogic and rationality on so many levels it's not funny. There's no way anyone is convincing me that God randomly saves men and randomly sends men to he11 for no reason. God is no respecter of persons and besides there is no indication at all in the Bible that God wants robots serving him who had absolutely no choice in the matter but were just "elected" to serve. Hogwash!

 God already had the angels in heaven he didn't need to create man also to serve in that capacity. 

And on a final note, "Once saved, always saved" is a total farce, One only has to read the very last two verses of James (James 5:19-20) to see why. "My brethren, if any among you *strays from the truth* and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "

If someone is "Predestined" to be saved how could he lose his soul? 

Yes, God is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows what will happen before it will happen. But foreknowledge does not imply predestination.

 The Old Testament Jews became very arrogant and complacent because they felt themselves to be the "Elect" of God, the "Chosen" people. They got so arrogant and complacent they failed totally in the mission God elected them to carry out and wound up crucifying their own messiah. 

 So your son in law cutting down a tree for spite isn't that unusual or unexpected for someone of this particular bent.


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> No, I'm still waiting for my answer Annie. He's posted several times but has not answered my most pointed questions and I don't wonder why.



Tim, I said your questions deserved an answer. Please be patient. I take your questions seriously and not with a run and gun attitude. You and mtnwoman asked me what took place at my new birth. This is something very personal between a man and the Holy Spirit. I think it prudent to be very careful with my answer. There are some things that occur between a man and the Spirit that are not necessarily to be broadcast in the marketplace.


----------



## ambush80

TimB said:


> No, I'm still waiting for my answer Annie. He's posted several times but has not answered my most pointed questions and I don't wonder why.
> 
> The simple fact is that for someone who believes man is so sinful and depraved that he is totally incapable of answering the call of God has a really tough time explaining how _he_ answered the call of God.
> 
> Also if one believes that God "predestined" everything then you have to believe that God created sin! He caused man to act a specific way knowing in advance what it would lead to.
> 
> Also, If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant and without repentance no one is saved! Repentance is an act that is required on our part _before_ we can be saved so since we are incapable of any act that would save ourselves or contribute to our own salvation NO ONE is saved!
> 
> If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be sinners.
> 
> Remember if God predestined everything then he predestined Adam to sin so how can man be at fault?
> 
> The TULIP Calvinism breaks down to total illogic and rationality on so many levels it's not funny. There's no way anyone is convincing me that God randomly saves men and randomly sends men to he11 for no reason. God is no respecter of persons and besides there is no indication at all in the Bible that God wants robots serving him who had absolutely no choice in the matter but were just "elected" to serve. Hogwash!
> 
> God already had the angels in heaven he didn't need to create man also to serve in that capacity.
> 
> And on a final note, "Once saved, always saved" is a total farce, One only has to read the very last two verses of James (James 5:19-20) to see why. "My brethren, if any among you *strays from the truth* and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
> 
> If someone is "Predestined" to be saved how could he lose his soul?
> 
> Yes, God is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows what will happen before it will happen. But foreknowledge does not imply predestination.
> 
> The Old Testament Jews became very arrogant and complacent because they felt themselves to be the "Elect" of God, the "Chosen" people. They got so arrogant and complacent they failed totally in the mission God elected them to carry out and wound up crucifying their own messiah.
> 
> So your son in law cutting down a tree for spite isn't that unusual or unexpected for someone of this particular bent.



Can you explain this one?


----------



## Israel

It seems that to some God sits in heaven waiting for tomorrow. And can then say...see, I knew this was going to happen.
In Jesus are all things finished. 
Not going to be, not someday will be...not waiting around for "what happens next"...Jesus is all that is and has ever been happening.
We are either in him enjoying that...or still wondering "what's God going to do next?"


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> It seems that to some God sits in heaven waiting for tomorrow. And can then say...see, I knew this was going to happen.
> In Jesus are all things finished.
> Not going to be, not someday will be...not waiting around for "what happens next"...Jesus is all that is and has ever been happening.
> We are either in him enjoying that...or still wondering "what's God going to do next?"



I don't think that's how omniscience works.


----------



## Bama4me

Several passages which are applicable to this discussion are the following:
*  Acts 2:40 - "save yourselves from this crooked generation"
*  Ephesians 2:8 - "for by grace you have been saved through faith"
*  John 3:5 - "unless one is born of the water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven"
*  Romans 10:9 - "if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved"

The passage most cite to allegedly prove unconditional election, Ephesians 1:4-7, is easily explained.  There is a vast difference between "group election" and "individual election."  In the passage, "election" is only through the Lord Jesus Christ...
*  "In Him" (verse 4)
*  "By Jesus Christ" (verse 5)
*  "In the Beloved" (verse 6)
*  "In Him" (verse 7)

If our election is "in Christ", a study of how we get into Christ from the New Testament is essential.  Check out Romans 6:3 and Galatians 3:27 and you will notice that is accomplished in baptism... a response to the message of salvation.

An illustration that helps us understand is when teachers give a syllabus with a grading scale on it - they have "predestined" all students in the class to "pass" or "fail" since all will fall into the categories presented.  Likewise, God (before the earth began) "predestined" every single person living in the era of Christ's law to either heaven or hel l.  Those who respond to the gospel message the way God commands will be saved... those who reject the gospel message will be lost.  What made the distinction possible?  The blood of Christ.  Thus... all the saved are saved so "in Christ"... but that does not in the least imply we don't have to respond.


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> gem, I'm confused by a couple of your statements that appear to be contradictory. Please clear this up for me
> In the quote below and in couple of other places (but I'll only use this one example) you state that it is impossible for us (dead in our sins as we once were) to seek out God or his salvation;
> And yet in your own testimony or at least this part of it you state that multiple times in your own life you yourself sought salvation, prayed the sinners prayer etc etc. ;
> 
> How is it that you sought out God's salvation several times before you were actually called by and saved by God when you were "Dead, D-E-A-D, dead" ?



I sought God's salvation because that is was I was told to do in order to escape he11. The same with the sinners prayer etc. These were the outward acts I was being told by my teachers, preacher and friends that I needed to do in order to be saved. Who in their right mind would not want to escape he11 by doing what everybody is telling them to do? 




TimB said:


> Also if you could please explain the following, you yourself said you were familiar with and had been taught the "Roman road" but did not explain how it fits with your belief or why it is wrong if that is what you think.



 I was taught how to convince folks that they are lost and what verses to present to them from the Bible to prove it. I was taught how to deceive them, that if they would just outwardly do what I was telling them to do, without an inward desire to do it, that everything will be ok. It is the "what do you have to lose" approach. It is the work of the Holy Spirit to establish that inward desire. 




TimB said:


> I certainly agree that you were subjected to abusive treatment by over zealous people in your youth. It is unfortunate that things like that happen.



But why wouldn't they get as many confessions from as many people as they can. By what ever means possible? Remember, that is how easy it was for them to be saved. My wife will tell you how she was constantly walking the aisle and kneeling at the Baptist alter and getting "saved". She was baptized 4 or 5 times! She wanted to make sure she got it right because nothing was happening. And as it was with me, nothing was happening inwardly. We were just going through the outward like everybody else. If we had doubt about our salvation, we were just told "Did you do this? Did you do that? Well then, you are saved and don't let anybody tell you different." They were more concerned for our outward acts than our inward condition. Why? I would imagine they were in the same condition as us.





TimB said:


> One final question if you don't mind, you were very brief and non-descriptive about your actual (according to you) salvation experience in comparison with your detailed story of your spiritually abusive upbringing. Could you elaborate on that experience just a bit?
> 
> I'd like to know how in your mind it was that you came to be "called" and how you responded. How you "knew" you were finally saved . etc. Because based on the doctrine you've outlined about predestination I'm really foggy on just how that is supposed to take place.



This is something that is very personal, intimate between me and the Holy Spirit. I am waiting on liberty whether or not to talk about it in this venue.


----------



## SlappyTomato

TimB said:


> Absolutely! It would be a sin of course for a mother to help a daughter who is being abused by her husband. Who doesn't know that?




Are you serious? Now she is being abused because he cut the shrub wrong and didn't take her out to eat after church?  This is what happens when you run from the scriptures and let emotions take over. 

TimB as far as the sin for the mother in law? I posted the scripture ~Gods guidance and final word on the matter~ If you cannot read it with understanding then you will not know the answer as to where the sin is with her involvement in a marriage. 

This is not the first and will not be the last involvement from a mother in law in their childs marriage, yet this was addressed so many years ago in THE SCRIPTURES aka Gods word!

I will continue to cling to the scriptures, you as well as most will cling to emotions.


----------



## SlappyTomato

mtnwoman said:


> Speaking of my son in law. My daughter called me a little bit ago and said mama i've been crying all day about this subject and I said why. This isn't the first time but it's the worst time.
> 
> His sunday school class people and leader want to start a new church because of their belief I guess.
> 
> I told her a few weeks ago to mount up and fight back when people belittled her about her belief.
> Today her husband said, well my wife Kimberly, says she had an emotional reaction when she accepted Christ and I didn't. 4 men, now that's  4 men standing up against a small 4ft11 woman and saying that an emotional reaction to salvation doesn't mean a thing.
> 
> Oh Lordy I'm glad I quit going there, because I would've leaped up and said well you better get used to being emotional because you're going to be glorifying God for eternity, and praising, and singing and be designated to play a harp...what the heck is wrong with this pic.
> 
> She said her hubs had been doing this for like 3 months. She had been beggin him to shape up a bush in their front window so she could see the children playing while he goes outta town, like to the beach to sell hear aids...adds up don't it?  or to see his bro in washington or his aunt in va beach....and he went home after church and cut the bush  down to the ground to hurt her....for what..? for his glorification of God. He's gone tonight to get their childen about an hour away at his parents and she said her eyes were so swollen she couldn't even see to go get herself a biscuit from bojangles after not eating all day. So much for taking your wife out to eat after church...he uses his comps from work to take all his buds out though during the week.  Yeah he's of Jesus....he's a good husband. And she doesn't want to fight in front of their children for fear they will run away from the church...and we know they will.
> 
> I told her to come here, that I would undergird her and that others would, too.
> 
> He has always had such a grandious attitude about himself that I'm not surprised he would get caught up into being part of the 'select'...or being part of the best ballteam on earth...NC State...season tickets and almost every tailgate...but dog out your wife. Course he only married my daughter to pay back his ex for leaving him for treating her the same way.
> 
> Please pray for me before....well just before.
> 
> WOW took me 20, min to get back on...debil done knocked me off line...ok where was I?







mtnwoman said:


> Thanks Tim, that's correct.
> 
> But this thread, I'm sure you know isn't about my son in law, it's about the confusion that this belief causes, in lots of areas, and we know who the author of confusion is.



You are publicly airing the dirty laundry regarding your "DAUGHTERS MARRIAGE" and your involvement in it as well as your clear contempt for your son in law. There should not be a single person with a glimmer of intelligence reading the above post who thinks this thread is about his beliefs.


----------



## StriperAddict

SlappyTomato said:


> You are publicly airing the dirty laundry regarding your "DAUGHTERS MARRIAGE" and your involvement in it as well as your clear contempt for your son in law. There should not be a single person with a glimmer of intelligence reading the above post who thinks this thread is about his beliefs.


You can disagree with a post all you want but why you would put this on some chopping block is beyond me.  People deal with things from the light they have been given, and you just may not know the whole story.


----------



## SlappyTomato

StriperAddict said:


> why you would put this on some chopping block is beyond me.



I understand you not understanding.


----------



## stringmusic

slappy T, what exactly is the point in your rediculus posts?


"You cling to emotion and I'll cling to the Bible"..... give me a break.

We are all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no need for the ill will posts.


----------



## gemcgrew

I think the seriousness of this thread has possibly run its coarse. If I missed any questions, please hit me up with private message. I will be in the Small Game Hunting section from time to time.

Glenn


----------



## mtnwoman

SlappyTomato said:


> Are you serious? Now she is being abused because he cut the shrub wrong and didn't take her out to eat after church?  This is what happens when you run from the scriptures and let emotions take over.
> 
> TimB as far as the sin for the mother in law? I posted the scripture ~Gods guidance and final word on the matter~ If you cannot read it with understanding then you will not know the answer as to where the sin is with her involvement in a marriage.
> 
> This is not the first and will not be the last involvement from a mother in law in their childs marriage, yet this was addressed so many years ago in THE SCRIPTURES aka Gods word!
> 
> I will continue to cling to the scriptures, you as well as most will cling to emotions.




He didn't cut the shrub wrong.....he cut it down to the ground. It was too tall for her to reach the top and she had shaped it all the way as far as she could reach. So know there is no shrub there right in the middle of all the other shrubs. He also cut down their 20 foot tall japanese maple but left a 5 foot stump, while even the children cried. Look at it however you want to....if you think that's loving your wife like Christ loves that church, I pity your wife. And he did that to punish her for saying something in sunday school class.

So glorifying God isn't emotional to you? Man you must be cold as a stone. But that's ok....even the rocks WILL cry out.

My whole point in bringing this up is that he has such a high and mighty grandious attitude about being part of the preselected elect that he can do what he wants to....he's in......no matter what God chose him.


----------



## SlappyTomato

stringmusic said:


> slappy T, what exactly is the point in your rediculus posts?
> 
> 
> "You cling to emotion and I'll cling to the Bible"..... give me a break.
> 
> We are all supposed to be brothers and sisters in Christ, there is no need for the ill will posts.



No ill will here~ and cling to the scriptures is always good advice.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I think the seriousness of this thread has possibly run its coarse. If I missed any questions, please hit me up with private message. I will be in the Small Game Hunting section from time to time.
> 
> Glenn



Except that some of us want to know, how did you come to terms that you were saved? I mean how did you know? Did it just dawn on you? There is no action on your part, I'm just wondering how the preselected elect know they are saved?

That's the one question that several have ask you and you've avoided throughout the entire thread and is definately a very important point of how did you come to the conclusion.
Please don't bail out just to avoid this question.


----------



## SlappyTomato

> Look at it however you want to....if you think that's loving your wife like Christ loves that church, I pity your wife.
> 
> So glorifying God isn't emotional to you? Man you must be cold as a stone. But that's ok....even the rocks WILL cry out.



There has never been a man that has loved his wife like Christ loved the church-My wife like myself rest in the love of Christ not man but thanks anyway for your pity. Pity and prayers are always welcome.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Except that some of us want to know, how did you come to terms that you were saved? I mean how did you know? Did it just dawn on you? There is no action on your part, I'm just wondering how the preselected elect know they are saved?
> 
> That's the one question that several have ask you and you've avoided throughout the entire thread and is definately a very important point of how did you come to the conclusion.
> Please don't bail out just to avoid this question.



Please see post 362 and 367.


----------



## stringmusic

SlappyTomato said:


> No ill will here~ and cling to the scriptures is always good advice.



Delivery, delivery, delivery.

You get more bees with honey than vinegar.


----------



## Huntinfool

If anybody has been looking for a modern-day miracle...


This thread is 8 pages long and now 380 posts deep...full of controversy and disagreement....



....and HF has not posted a single time in the thread until post #380.  


It's a miracle y'all!



Annie, I don't know about you, but I'm more emotional than ever and get worse the deeper I know Christ.  God exhibits all kinds of emotion throughout both Old and New Testament.  Don't you worry lady.  Emotion is a good thing.  Don't be controlled by it...but thank the Lord for emotions.


----------



## stringmusic

Huntinfool said:


> If anybody has been looking for a modern-day miracle...
> 
> 
> This thread is 8 pages long and now 380 posts deep...full of controversy and disagreement....
> 
> 
> 
> ....and HF has not posted a single time in the thread until post #380.
> 
> 
> It's a miracle y'all!


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> If anybody has been looking for a modern-day miracle...
> 
> 
> This thread is 8 pages long and now 380 posts deep...full of controversy and disagreement....
> 
> 
> 
> ....and HF has not posted a single time in the thread until post #380.
> 
> 
> It's a miracle y'all!




It's a miracle you're not one of those banded ducks that stringmusic is holding in his avatar



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Annie, I don't know about you, but I'm more emotional than ever and get worse the deeper I know Christ.  God exhibits all kinds of emotion throughout both Old and New Testament.  Don't you worry lady.  Emotion is a good thing.  Don't be controlled by it...but thank the Lord for emotions.



There in lies the problem with most in the modern day church.  They allow their emotions to make their doctrinal/theological decisions.


----------



## stringmusic

rjcruiser said:


> It's a miracle you're not one of those banded ducks that stringmusic is holding in his avatar



He's a mod favorite, just look at the "Doubt" thread.


----------



## rjcruiser

stringmusic said:


> He's a mod favorite, just look at the "Doubt" thread.



Wow...to think, I was spending time in a tree hunting deer instead of participating in that thread.

Boy...I missed a great one.

HF, how's it feel to be a mod favorite?  You must get constant PMs of praise.


----------



## Huntinfool

I officially disavow any knowledge or participation in the previous three posts.


----------



## SlappyTomato

stringmusic said:


> Delivery, delivery, delivery.
> 
> You get more bees with honey than vinegar.



That is true of bees but direct people to scripture and you will be "cold as stone and have your wife pitied" and be told "you lack love for your brothers and sisters."  

Read the replies, although it is very sad this is the standard/typical response when you direct people to the scriptures.  I gave advice based the scriptures and I was attacked and that is fine as I stated before that is typical.

There is a time when you walk away from a discussion because you have nothing in common and when the scriptures are ignored or attacked we no longer have anything in common~ so feel free to attack away and I will go back to the hunting section.


----------



## mtnwoman

Joy is a fruit of the spirit.....that may be the only fruit I'm known for, but I got that one.....oh and longsuffering...

And besides I'm practicing up for heaven when I'm overcome with love, peace, and all those little meaning emotions I have for my Lord.
My gosh He died on the cross for me, how can I not be emotional about just that one thing, if nothing else. I get emotional when a cat dies....sheesh.


----------



## Huntinfool

Slappy....you clearly have not read through many threads in here.  People point out scripture to each other on a daily basis and very rarely (except when I do it!) is it ever taken as offensive or meanspirited.  It isn't the scripture you posted that was offensive...it was your words.

I think you and I both need to work on our delivery my friend.  Yours is even worse than mine these days.  

Don't hide anger behind authority of scripture.  It's a dangerous combo.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Please see post 362 and 367.




This gets to the core of my problem with this doctrine. Not one person yet has answered that question for me. How do you know? if you do nothing how do you know?

The people that believe this doctrine can send you a gazillion links and gazillion and two scripture, yet with no answer to that question. 

I do give up....so no need to respond.

If it's that personal between you and the HS I don't know how you'd even testify,witness, preach the gospel, explain salvation to someone like ambush who might need that answer. You said nothing happened in your tries before what if someone asks you then how do you know and you refuse to answer them?

I just don't think there is an answer that doesn't call for at least a response/acceptance/belief on our part.

And this is the reason why, I've not gotten an answer to that very question, but I sure have gotten how I must've saved myself when I said yes Lord, or responded to Christ's knock, or accepted His offer of salvation, somehow that appears that I'm saying I had part in my salvation, which is absolutely absurd. There is nothing I can do to save myself...nothing at all....no works, nothing.

And to think God gets/wants/needs/ glorification when someones perishes is absolutely absurd.


----------



## gtparts

TimB said:


> No, I'm still waiting for my answer Annie. He's posted several times but has not answered my most pointed questions and I don't wonder why.
> 
> The simple fact is that for someone who believes man is so sinful and depraved that he is totally incapable of answering the call of God has a really tough time explaining how _he_ answered the call of God.
> 
> Also if one believes that God "predestined" everything then you have to believe that God created sin! He caused man to act a specific way knowing in advance what it would lead to.
> 
> Also, If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant and without repentance no one is saved! Repentance is an act that is required on our part _before_ we can be saved so since we are incapable of any act that would save ourselves or contribute to our own salvation NO ONE is saved!
> 
> If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be sinners.
> 
> Remember if God predestined everything then he predestined Adam to sin so how can man be at fault?
> 
> The TULIP Calvinism breaks down to total illogic and rationality on so many levels it's not funny. There's no way anyone is convincing me that God randomly saves men and randomly sends men to he11 for no reason. God is no respecter of persons and besides there is no indication at all in the Bible that God wants robots serving him who had absolutely no choice in the matter but were just "elected" to serve. Hogwash!
> 
> God already had the angels in heaven he didn't need to create man also to serve in that capacity.
> 
> And on a final note, "Once saved, always saved" is a total farce, One only has to read the very last two verses of James (James 5:19-20) to see why. "My brethren, if any among you *strays from the truth* and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "
> 
> If someone is "Predestined" to be saved how could he lose his soul?
> 
> Yes, God is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows what will happen before it will happen. But foreknowledge does not imply predestination.
> 
> The Old Testament Jews became very arrogant and complacent because they felt themselves to be the "Elect" of God, the "Chosen" people. They got so arrogant and complacent they failed totally in the mission God elected them to carry out and wound up crucifying their own messiah.
> 
> So your son in law cutting down a tree for spite isn't that unusual or unexpected for someone of this particular bent.



Dude, you really had it pretty much nailed down ........ till you got to the part in blue above. Read closely the words "if any among you *strays from the truth*". The reference to "any among you" may be interpreted as "kinsmen" or "neighbors" or "those with whom one engages in conversation, commerce, etc., an acquaintance". It is not necessarily a saved person....... until we get to this part, "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way". 

Hmmmmm..... those words "sinner" and "error of his way", coupled with a direction from which one needs to be turned, identifies a lost person. James, then, is not referring to a saved person that has already been redeemed. Now, because the book is addressed to the twelve tribes, dispersed, he is giving instruction to the Jewish Christians to be influences for Christ among the unsaved Jewish populations where they live.

Verses 19 & 20 are about spreading the Gospel among the Jews and by so doing, when they repent, their sins will be forgiven. 

Jesus is Lord, scriptural context is important, and whomsoever God saves is saved indeed!


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Slappy....you clearly have not read through many threads in here.  People point out scripture to each other on a daily basis and very rarely (except when I do it!) is it ever taken as offensive or meanspirited.  It isn't the scripture you posted that was offensive...it was your words.
> 
> I think you and I both need to work on our delivery my friend.  Yours is even worse than mine these days.
> 
> Don't hide anger behind authority of scripture.  It's a dangerous combo.



Thank you HF....the OP was about my son in law and many posts were about that, just like you said, I'm speaking from where I'm sittin' at the moment. 
Right now y'all are my church. I'm not going to stop seeking because someone makes fun of me. I still have not understood exactly this doctrine...I mean I understand it, except for the part of about how do you know when you become saved.

However it is hard to explain yourself online sometimes and things come across as being a way that may not be the intent of the poster.
Besides y'all are guys....hahahahahahahaha...I grew up with brothers, they are more abrasive than women.........sometimes....


----------



## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> Dude, you really had it pretty much nailed down ........ till you got to the part in blue above. Read closely the words "if any among you *strays from the truth*". The reference to "any among you" may be interpreted as "kinsmen" or "neighbors" or "those with whom one engages in conversation, commerce, etc., an acquaintance". It is not necessarily a saved person....... until we get to this part, "let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way".
> 
> Hmmmmm..... those words "sinner" and "error of his way", coupled with a direction from which one needs to be turned, identifies a lost person. James, then, is not referring to a saved person that has already been redeemed. Now, because the book is addressed to the twelve tribes, dispersed, he is giving instruction to the Jewish Christians to be influences for Christ among the unsaved Jewish populations where they live.
> 
> Verses 19 & 20 are about spreading the Gospel among the Jews and by so doing, when they repent, their sins will be forgiven.
> 
> Jesus is Lord, scriptural context is important, and whomsoever God saves is saved indeed!



TimB and GT...both of your posts are right on, to me.

I'm a little confused about the scipture in question in both posts.

I do believe once saved always saved. And you'd have to believe that if you're totally absorbed in the TULIP doctrine...wouldn't ya...or not? I'm a little confused.

If you're predestined then you couldn't lose your salvation and you cannot refuse/resist the calling, which I get...in the TULIP Calvinism doctrine.  

Ok dangit I'm just confused....hahahahahahaha.


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Also, If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant and without repentance no one is saved! Repentance is an act that is required on our part _before_ we can be saved so since we are incapable of any act that would save ourselves or contribute to our own salvation NO ONE is saved! *That's a golden nugget right there.*
> 
> If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be sinners. *Absolutely*
> 
> The Old Testament Jews became very arrogant and complacent because they felt themselves to be the "Elect" of God, the "Chosen" people. They got so arrogant and complacent they failed totally in the mission God elected them to carry out and wound up crucifying their own messiah.



I used to clean houses in between layoffs at bellsouth, I worked for a jewish lady, orthodox jew, and her dr husband. She talked down to me so bad that it was unbelievable...of course I didn't last long. She had gone thru 10 others in the past year.
My granddaughter went to the dr office one night for me to clean, and they made me pay $1 for a piece of typing paper I used for her to color while I worked....hahahahahahahahahahahaha.


----------



## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> The simple fact is that for someone who believes man is so sinful and depraved that he is totally incapable of answering the call of God has a really tough time explaining how _he_ answered the call of God.



I already answered it. He can not answer until he is born again.



TimB said:


> Also if one believes that God "predestined" everything then you have to believe that God created sin!



God is sovereign in all things. God's purpose includes all the sinful acts of man.

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."(Genesis 50:20)
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."(Isaiah 45:7)
"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"(Amos 3:6)
"And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so?" (2 Samuel 16:10)




TimB said:


> Also, If man is totally incapable of good, then man cannot truly be remorseful or repentant and without repentance no one is saved!



As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)



TimB said:


> Repentance is an act that is required on our part _before_ we can be saved so since we are incapable of any act that would save ourselves or contribute to our own salvation NO ONE is saved!



No, repentance is a result of salvation.




TimB said:


> If God predestined everything, then why eternally condemn the non-elect? After all, it is not their fault.. they were predestined to be sinners.
> 
> Remember if God predestined everything then he predestined Adam to sin so how can man be at fault?



Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (Romans 9:20,21)


----------



## mtnwoman

I think we should just throw out every other book of the Bible but Romans.....that book is what this doctrine is founded on.

It tickles my son in law pink when they're gonna study romans, and guess what, they've been studying romans for 3 months, the whole time this has been going on in their lives.

Maybe it's someone else that is being worshipped, like Paul.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I already answered it. He can not answer until he is born again.



Ok so how are you born again? You just all of a sudden realize you're born again? You're just reborn and then you can answer? how do you know you are reborn?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> No, repentance is a result of salvation.



So how do you know when it's time to repent? How do you know you've achieved salvation? Do we get a que or anything? How did you know when to repent/ask for forgiveness/get baptized. How do you know if and when you're saved to do those things?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I think we should just throw out every other book of the Bible but Romans.....that book is what this doctrine is founded on.



 Are you saying it is founded on God's word?



mtnwoman said:


> It tickles my son in law pink when they're gonna study romans, and guess what, they've been studying romans for 3 months, the whole time this has been going on in their lives.
> 
> Maybe it's someone else that is being worshipped, like Paul.



May be. Not all Calvinist are born again. Some apply or have these doctrines applied to their mind. But God (I love those two words) Who is rich in Mercy and Grace applies them to the heart of some men.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Ok so how are you born again? You just all of a sudden realize you're born again? You're just reborn and then you can answer? how do you know you are reborn?



How was Lazarus brought to life when he was dead?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Ok so how are you born again? You just all of a sudden realize you're born again? You're just reborn and then you can answer? how do you know you are reborn?



You are the recipient of Divine power. Just as God created the world, He creates life where there was none. It is a new inward condition.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> How was Lazarus brought to life when he was dead?



Lazarus was physically dead.

But i'll still go there with you.

Jesus said Lazarus come forth or it could be Annie come forth....Lazarus was awakend by Christ and got up and came forth, just like I did.  Did lazarus have anything to do with his 'saving'..... no, other than obedience.  He acted on what Christ told Him to do, lazarus, obeyed Christ. 

And also if you want to use that example.....I stayed in the tomb and resisted Christ for 30 some years.....did He force me to come, no, did He know I would come out, yes....did I come out and obey Christ, yes I did, finally and it was my free will to act on that. Don't say I can't resist I did....for 30 yrs. But ultimately I came out....know why? Because I accepted years ago when I was 12 and God said nothing will snatch you out of the palm of my hand, and nothing did. I was lost and didn't even know I was lost and didn't care. Did God always know where I was? of course....He left the 90 and 9 and came and got His lost sheep.
None of that was because of anything I did, other than saying yes, Lord yes, at age 12....I surreneder/responded/ acted upon the invitation.

I believe there are predestined elect thru out the Bible....Moses, Abraham, Jonah, and David, Paul, Judas, and many others. I believe that they had to do what God said no matter what. But just like God gave the Jews the option to follow Him and they did not, He gave us the orphans the same deal. 

Of course He selected me to be saved just like He did everyone else. His chosen were the ones that had no choice...remember Paul?....He had no choice, God blinded Him and made Him do His will. Paul was of the preelect of God. Just like Judas, Peter, etc. I'm not of that category.

I'm just an orphan gentil saved by mercy and grace if I believe that Christ is who He says He is.

I can't put myself in the category of Paul, nor Abraham, nor Jonah.


----------



## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> I already answered it. He can not answer until he is born again.





> Luke 24:47
> And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
> 
> Acts 3:19
> Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.



Why preach repentance to the unsaved if they're incapable of repenting until they're born again and how do they get born again without repenting?




> God is sovereign in all things. God's purpose includes all the sinful acts of man.



True but he did not _create_ sin or evil. 



> "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."(Genesis 50:20)
> 
> "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."(Isaiah 45:7)



You should well know that the accurate translation of that word is not "evil" but _Darkness_. God created darkness, he did not create evil. He _uses_ evil to some extent if it furthers his purpose like he used Pharaoh but he did not make Pharaoh evil. He just hardened his already hard heart. 



> "Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"(Amos 3:6)



 You really need to post more accurate translations, again yours is wrong. It actually reads;



> Amos 3:6
> 
> 6 When a trumpet sounds in a city,
> do not the people tremble?
> When disaster comes to a city,
> has not the LORD caused it?





> As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
> There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
> They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. (Romans 3:10-12)



No disagreement there, but the idea that man is incapable of repentance until _after_ he is saved is absurd. Too many scriptures as I already pointed out that show repentance preceding salvation.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> How was Lazarus brought to life when he was dead?



How was Judas brought to life when he was dead?


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> No disagreement there, but the idea that man is incapable of repentance until _after_ he is saved is absurd. Too man scriptures as I already pointed out that show repentance preceding salvation.



Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Acts 2:37-39 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.
Acts 3:18-20 (in Context) Acts 3 (Whole Chapter)


repentance comes first....


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Lazarus was physically dead.
> 
> But i'll still go there with you.
> 
> Jesus said Lazarus come forth or it could be Annie come forth....Lazarus was awakend by Christ and got up and came forth, just like I did.  Did lazarus have anything to do with his 'saving'..... no, other than obedience.  He acted on what Christ told Him to do, lazarus, obeyed Christ.



Yes, he obeyed. He was unable to and did not desire to until he was alive. Why? Because he was dead.





mtnwoman said:


> I believe that they had to do what God said no matter what.



So you don't believe in free will?



mtnwoman said:


> Of course He selected me to be saved just like He did everyone else.



Then everyone else will be saved. But we know that is not Scriptural.



mtnwoman said:


> His chosen were the ones that had no choice...remember Paul?....He had no choice, God blinded Him and made Him do His will. Paul was of the preelect of God. Just like Judas, Peter, etc. I'm not of that category.



I am sorry but I am not following you here.



mtnwoman said:


> I'm just an orphan gentil saved by mercy and grace if I believe that Christ is who He says He is.



There are many in he11 that believe Christ is who He says He is.



mtnwoman said:


> I can't put myself in the category of Paul, nor Abraham, nor Jonah.



What category would that be?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> How was Lazarus brought to life when he was dead?



You're reading too much into the term "dead".  Notice Ephesians 2 says people were "dead in trespasses and sin"... that's a far cry from being unable to do anything.  Romans 6:11 claims Christians consider themselves as "dead to sin"... does that mean a Christian is unable to sin any longer?  Check 1 John 1:8-10 for the answer. 

Romans 6:4 claims that when we are baptized into Jesus' death, we begin walking in "newness of life."  Seems to me the Bible clearly teaches that when we react this way to the gospel message, the "dead" turns to "life."  

If you try to make Lazarus' situation parallel, you must also be willing to apply Jesus' situation.  In Acts 2, Peter indicated God raised Jesus from the dead... but 1 Peter 2:18-19 tells us that while He was dead, His spirit was proclaiming a message to spirits in prison.  Thus, dead doesn't always mean "incapable of any action"... and your argument fails to hold water.


----------



## TimB

TimB said:
			
		

> Yes, God is omnipotent and omniscient. He knows what will happen before it will happen. But foreknowledge does not imply predestination.





ambush80 said:


> Can you explain this one?



Sorry I almost missed this ambush, yes I can explain!

  Let's say I had a time machine (you know God is not restricted by time, he lives outside of time) and I got in this time machine and traveled forward in time to next Sunday night and watched the news to find out who won this weeks Falcon game and see that the Falcons beat the Lions 33 to 17 (let's think positive!). 

 So then I get back in my time machine and travel back to my real time. I then know what will happen in the future in the Falcon game BUT _knowing_ that does not mean I had anything to do with the outcome of the game. 

 So then _foreknowledge_ does not equate to _predestination_. 

I hope this clears it up for you.


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## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> There are many in he11 that believe Christ is who He says He is.




Well now that's one of the truest things you've ever said! The bible says that Satan believes;



> 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.



 To be saved one has to ACT on what he believes by repenting of sin and being born again. In that order.


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## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> Why preach repentance to the unsaved if they're incapable of repenting until they're born again and how do they get born again without repenting?



Why preach the Gospel to dead men? Because that is the means God has chosen to reveal himself. How does that dead man do anything until he is given life? And that which He begins in us He makes perfect.






TimB said:


> True but he did not _create_ sin or evil.



Of coarse not. It just happened outside of His sovereign control and He just figured out a way to deal with it?





TimB said:


> No disagreement there, but the idea that man is incapable of repentance until _after_ he is saved is absurd. Too many scriptures as I already pointed out that show repentance preceding salvation.



He is dead (corpse).


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## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> To be saved one has to ACT on what he believes by repenting of sin and being born again. In that order.



So you get the credit or at least part of the credit for your salvation?


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> So you get the credit or at least part of the credit for your salvation?



That's as common as For God so loved the world....whosoever etc.

No body is trying to take credit for their salvation.
If you did nothing, you did not respond to the calling, you did not repent, etc etc, then you are taking credit for your trip to he11? same thing.

If you even acknowledge that God is calling you personally,  are you saying that we are trying to take credit for our salvation? well of course you are, if any action means your taking credit for it...but no one here has said that. You seem stuck on accusing folks for trying to take credit for their salvation.
That's why I ask you how did you know you received salvation? How did you even know you could repent or should repent, and did you even repent? Some of us are trying to fathom that you did nothing and yet you are auto-saved and you know when to repent and to get baptized, yet you did nothing to get to that point.
It's like sprinkling a child and they are saved, and of course that's if they are of the preselected, they never have to do anything, they're accomplished.


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## Ronnie T

It's difficult to communicate biblically with anyone who cannot read scripture and take it for what it says.
It becomes an impossibility.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Why preach the Gospel to dead men? Because that is the means God has chosen to reveal himself. How does that dead man do anything until he is given life? And that which He begins in us He makes perfect.
> 
> *Because we are to be like Christ, and He called lazarus forth, don't you believe we should be like Christ and call others that are dead forth, you dismiss the great commission? Because I know you are not wise enough to know who is and who is not saved, just like I dont.
> 
> So you're saying you're perfect? wow.....well I hate to enlighten you but you are not and neither am I.
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of coarse not. It just happened outside of His sovereign control and He just figured out a way to deal with it?*Well wow, we finally can agree on that....He is sovereign and everything He says goes and IF it doesn't (like ambush gets saved) then God will deal with it.*
> 
> Oh Lord, please don't let me spin in circles much longer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He is dead (corpse).



Well you were once dead? We all were? When God called you or pricked your heart, or whatever, how did you react? If you didn't react then I how does anyone or you know you are saved....you just think you should be because...well I don't know why...there's nothing to base your salvation on, not that I've seen yet.

How do you know you weren't saved at your younger age and God just put you through what you went thru as a testimony to others that are the same boat that you were in....Maybe you should be preaching freedom to people instead of 50/50 salvation.


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## Ronnie T

Acts 2:38  37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 

38  And Peter replied,      "You don't have to do nothin".  God does it all and if you are required to do anything you might want to get some of the credit."  Nothing required of you at all.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Why preach the Gospel to dead men? Because that is the means God has chosen to reveal himself. How does that dead man do anything until he is given life? And that which He begins in us He makes perfect.




Why preach the gospel to dead men? How do you know who are dead? Aren't we called to the great commission. Not a sentence in the Bible says we should not preach to everyone, except not to continue to throw our pearls amongst the swine, move on.

We are all dead and Christ knocks on every heart....we are dead, passed out, clueless to the calling. But someone like you comes along and realized this person is dead, and you explain that Jesus loves them and that He will take them as they are. That's the great commission. Then we give them the info, the gospel. At that time, Christ working thru us, is calling that person, and that person wakes up... CAN that person resist? I know for a fact they can. Will I give up on them? No....if Christ can go so far as to die on the cross for us, I can keep up discipleship to someone that I know will perish.
Jesus didn't blow us off....I'm not gonna blow anyone off because I think they aren't saved or can never be saved based on their fruit of whether they are dead, when I know they are dead.


Good Lord have mercy.....Please let the power of your Grace and Mercy be realized it is extended to all....not just a few select cute babes who were also dead in sin....like the rest of us and will never be perfect until the coming of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Acts 2:38  37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
> 
> 38  And Peter replied,      "You don't have to do nothin".  God does it all and if you are required to do anything you might want to get some of the credit."  Nothing required of you at all.




Are you just messing with me again,darlin?....


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## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Well now that's one of the truest things you've ever said! The bible says that Satan believes;*OH yeah dat oh debil believes, but he tries to trip and trick the rest of us up. Poor ambush, he's lost due to bad info...glad that ain't on my head *
> 
> 
> 
> To be saved one has to ACT on what he believes by repenting of sin and being born again. In that order.



But believe is a verb you can't use a verb to the TULIP believers....you just sat there like a robot, or a knot on a log and when Christ says your saved, and that's in secret code....you repent and get baptized and you're good to go.

And some even have an excuse for not preaching the gospel because people are dead.....


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## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Sorry I almost missed this ambush, yes I can explain!
> 
> Let's say I had a time machine (you know God is not restricted by time, he lives outside of time) and I got in this time machine and traveled forward in time to next Sunday night and watched the news to find out who won this weeks Falcon game and see that the Falcons beat the Lions 33 to 17 (let's think positive!).
> 
> So then I get back in my time machine and travel back to my real time. I then know what will happen in the future in the Falcon game BUT _knowing_ that does not mean I had anything to do with the outcome of the game.
> 
> So then _foreknowledge_ does not equate to _predestination_.
> 
> I hope this clears it up for you.




agree!

to ambush....just like I said in the walmart story, even though your youngun didn't mind you, even though you knew what would happen, that you willed that to happen for your kid, even though you knew it would?

once again for the 4011th time, we all agree that God knows what will happen to the end of time. Can He change what He wants to change, of course He can...does He?, I don't think so. If His plan is for us to be saved based on our belief in Christ, that doesn't mean that He is not all knowing, nor all controlling if He chooses.  He made the rules, ya know.....if you'll do this then I'll do this. And He proved that with Jonah. But does He control us all? There are some in the Bible that were chosen/elected by God to do His will to make His plan work.

We are not a Billy Graham, or a Moses or a Jonah, or a Judas, we are just of the elect if we are saved. Jonah was of the elect before the foundation of the earth and also of the chosen, who sees what happened to Jonah happen in their life? I'm not of that elect, nor am I the chosen of God who are the Jews.

I am chosen to be saved, but not to ride in a whale, I'm saved by mercy and grace and never had to memorize the torah as the jews did, be in God's grace. I'm grafted into the vine because God said come and I chose to come....without His offering, no way in heck could I save myself and have never taken credit for it, except maybe I've said thank you God for giving me a brain cell or two to make the right choice...ask and ye shall receive...and hallelujah I got way more that I could ever deserve.


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## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> Acts 2:38  37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?”
> 
> 38  And Peter replied,      "You don't have to do nothin".  God does it all and if you are required to do anything you might want to get some of the credit."  Nothing required of you at all.



Seems to me that "they were pierced to the heart" is operative.


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## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> So you get the credit or at least part of the credit for your salvation?



Who is assigning credit? Who is claiming credit. I don't know of any Christian claiming credit, yet they do have some responsibility in their salvation. Through Christ, God has provided a way that all might be reconciled, but He forces no one.

Let me ask you a question.

Have you ever done something anonymously? 

If so, then you understand the concept of "doing something without seeking or receiving credit". When presented with the free gift of God's grace (salvation through Christ Jesus) each individual will either accept or reject that gift and God continues to extend that gift to the lost until some point of His choosing. 
While we may choose to respond to Christ, it is important to know that He is a perfect "gentleman" and will not force Himself into the life of anyone. He stands at the door and knocks, dear friend, waiting for us to open the door, if we will.

Yes, we "do" something, but it is a response. We neither set the terms of salvation, nor do we have any part in providing or keeping (retaining) salvation. It is His salvation to give and if it is accepted, He will preserve it for us. Is it even possible to take credit? I don't believe it is possible. If we truly grasp the simplest details of salvation, we know that we are merely the recipients of grace. God has set the requirements and we must meet those requirements in order to be in right relationship and partake of everlasting life with Him.  

I believe that Calvin either had it wrong or expressed himself poorly. Choosing Christ brings God glory; it does not rob Him of anything, especially His sovereignty.


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## hawglips

gemcgrew said:


> So you get the credit or at least part of the credit for your salvation?



Ask yourself the flip side of that question:

Who gets the credit if one is not saved?  Is it God's fault?  Or ours?  I'd say that it's not God's fault, but our own.

So, of course, what we do or don't do, has a direct bearing on whether we are saved or not.

The opportunity to be saved is a gift freely given.  We can not earn that.  But if we refuse that gift; if we let the opportunity slip by; if our pride prevents us from developing faith, submitting to his will, and obeying his commandments -- it's not His fault when salvation passes us by, but our own.


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## hummerpoo

gtparts said:


> Who is assigning credit? Who is claiming credit. I don't know of any Christian claiming credit, yet they do have some responsibility in their salvation. Through Christ, God has provided a way that all might be reconciled, but He forces no one.
> 
> Let me ask you a question.
> 
> Have you ever done something anonymously?
> 
> If so, then you understand the concept of "doing something without seeking or receiving credit". When presented with the free gift of God's grace (salvation through Christ Jesus) each individual will either accept or reject that gift and God continues to extend that gift to the lost until some point of His choosing.
> While we may choose to respond to Christ, it is important to know that He is a perfect "gentleman" and will not force Himself into the life of anyone. He stands at the door and knocks, dear friend, waiting for us to open the door, if we will.
> 
> Yes, we "do" something, but it is a response. We neither set the terms of salvation, nor do we have any part in providing or keeping (retaining) salvation. It is His salvation to give and if it is accepted, He will preserve it for us. Is it even possible to take credit? I don't believe it is possible. If we truly grasp the simplest details of salvation, we know that we are merely the recipients of grace. God has set the requirements and we must meet those requirements in order to be in right relationship and partake of everlasting life with Him.
> 
> I believe that Calvin either had it wrong or expressed himself poorly. Choosing Christ brings God glory; it does not rob Him of anything, especially His sovereignty.



I have to wonder if Paul, after he was struck blind, would agree with the part in blue.  Seems forceful to me.  Just wondering.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> So you get the credit or at least part of the credit for your salvation?



Someone offers you a million dollars... but he insists you must come to his home to receive it.  Do you get part of the "credit" when you comply with the demands made to receive the gift?  Can you say with any measure of truth, "I partially 'earned' that million dollars?"  Don't know of anyone who would brashly assert this idea.  

That's what the Bible clearly says in Ephesians 2:8... "you are saved by grace THROUGH faith."  "Faith" is trusting God enough to respond to His demands to receive the gift of Christ.  Noah is a great example... life was offered, BUT he had to obey God in order to receive that offer.  Had he not acted (faith's response), he would have drowned with all others of his time.  Even with this example, it was God (not Noah) who provided the means for his safety.


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## gtparts

hummerpoo said:


> I have to wonder if Paul, after he was struck blind, would agree with the part in blue.  Seems forceful to me.  Just wondering.



Certainly God exerted pressure to get Saul's attention, temporarily taking his physical sight to facilitate spiritual "sight". Fairly extreme, I agree. Nevertheless, Saul still had choices to make. No doubt the entire experience served to cause Saul to choose wisely. Some of us have also experienced dramatic things in order for God to get our attention. Others, not so dramatic. Just goes to show that God is more concerned about our character than our comfort.


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## mtnwoman

hummerpoo said:


> I have to wonder if Paul, after he was struck blind, would agree with the part in blue.  Seems forceful to me.  Just wondering.



I personally think it's possible that Paul, Jonah, Abraham are the very elect that are spoken of in the scripture that the TULIP followers are trying to fit themselves into. A lot of those verses make sense. If you realize that the Jews are the chosen and that the elect that cannot refuse God, those are the people that were the elect and chosen of God for a purpose, that they otherwise might not do on their own will.  Take Judas for example...or even Peter. We don't fit in that group.....well I mean generally we don't. 

And I'm just wondering on that, too. Piece by piece we might fit some of the puzzle together.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> But when Jesus knocked and I let Him into my heart, I was saved.



Again I ask you. These are your words not mine. The souls in he11 are there because they didn't let him in? If they would have done what you did and "let Him in" they would be saved?


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Again I ask you. These are your words not mine. The souls in he11 are there because they didn't let him in? If they would have done what you did and "let Him in" they would be saved?



Well if that's what you wanna twist it into....but no they are there because they didn't respond to God's offer of salvation. They did not believe Jesus is who He says He is.


I know you think they're there for the glory of God, like you said...which is probably very offensive to God, because He chose for no one to perish. He offered salvation to all, some did not accept that offer.

Oh and please backquote where those are my words...those are your words that you're trying to make my words.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Again I ask you. These are your words not mine. The souls in he11 are there because they didn't let him in? If they would have done what you did and "let Him in" they would be saved?



read this again.


Someone offers you a million dollars... but he insists you must come to his home to receive it. Do you get part of the "credit" when you comply with the demands made to receive the gift? Can you say with any measure of truth, "I partially 'earned' that million dollars?" Don't know of anyone who would brashly assert this idea.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Again I ask you. These are your words not mine. The souls in he11 are there because they didn't let him in? If they would have done what you did and "let Him in" they would be saved?



You certainly are insistant on knowing what I believe, what if I told you it was personal? which I have no reason to not give my witness or testimony.

You aren't the only one that won't answer the question about what happened at the moment you realized/decided/ or it dawned on you that were saved....I haven't gotten an answer from one single person that believes in the tulip doctrine.
Maybe some of them just think they are special enough to be saved, like some of the universalists that believe everyone will be saved whether they believe in anything or not.....they don't have to do anything either ya know, they just believe they are saved....does that mean they are?

And I'm not talking about you personally not being saved, if you say you are, I have no reason to doubt. I'm just wondering how you can truthfully preach the gospel in full, if you believe that some are not chosen and they might just burn in hades for the glory of God while we go to heaven for the glory of God...explain that to a sinner.

Like I said I was saved at 12 and fell away for many years, which means I resisted God by my own free will for 30 some years. I cried out and in the twinkling of an eye, and I'm serious, I was back in the fold....that very day, that very moment....and in hindsight I realized I had always been saved, just a lost sheep on a slippery slope, probably for some reason of testimony or witness, that I have well made use of. Ask me anything about addiction and relationship stuff and I've got the answers that God gave me, but I went thru what I went thru, so I could be a witness to the saving grace of God....not because I thought I could save myself....I wasn't even drivin'. When I go to the girls detention halls, or speak to young girls sometimes, I tell them to let Jesus do what they cannot do. Just let Him do it. He gives it freely, just invite Him in and He will lead you home. He won't break down the door, you have to want Him and trust and believe Him and you will be His. I certainly won't tell them that all of them are not welcome....I think I might lose my own salvation on that sin...I'm not here to be a stumbling block.

Jesus wants to work thru us, and when I say I'm responsible for the salvation of others, that mean that I'm responsible for allowing Christ to work thru me...I don't take any credit for my own salvation or for any one elses salvation. We are called to witness and help lead others to Christ by preaching the gospel to them, but that's not me, it's Christ working thru me. It's the Jesus in me that loves others, I am slowly beginning to show more love to others, but I've been hurt a lot and it's hard, so I have to say it's the Jesus in me that loves others. It's my garden to tend but it's Jesus who is my caregiver and driver.


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## TimB

gtparts said:


> Who is assigning credit? Who is claiming credit. I don't know of any Christian claiming credit, yet they do have some responsibility in their salvation. Through Christ, God has provided a way that all might be reconciled, but He forces no one.



Exactly, he's asking the wrong question. It's not about who gets "credit". No one can take credit for Salvation but God the father and the Son who gave his life that we might live. 

 We merely reach out and take what is offered by faith and he gives us that too, but it IS a decision we have to make whether or not to accept his call. 




> Acts 3:17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 *Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out*, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,




Notice the progression there, as in so many other verses;

1. Repent

2. Turn to God

3. Sins wiped out

Repentance is an act of will on our part before salvation comes. In this verse and many others it comes in response to the preaching of the word and precedes salvation.


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## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> Why preach the Gospel to dead men? Because that is the means God has chosen to reveal himself. How does that dead man do anything until he is given life? And that which He begins in us He makes perfect.



That's a straw man argument and an incorrect analogy as well. You're defining "dead man" by your own definition to suit your own purposes. The scripture no where defines us as being "dead" in the way you are describing. 

 Yes because of Adam's sin we are "dead in sins and trespasses", spiritually unable to fellowship with God but so was Adam after he sinned (In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die......) but he still was able to speak physically with God. He just could not fellowship with him spiritually any more. 

 Likewise we today are still able to communicate with God (see Acts 10) at least within limited parameters, certainly able to respond to the preaching of the Gospel and answer God's call to repent which we MUST do according to many scriptures _before_ salvation can come.


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## mtnwoman

First of all you can't compare Judas or Lazurus to us.

Does any one here think that I could go to a graveyard and preach the gospel and someone will respond.....Lordy I hope not. I don't know what Lazurus or Judas have to do with any of this. 

Jesus wasn't saving Lazurus spirit, anyway, He was waking him from the dead. That is totally different than the kind of dead we are.

If we are dead in that way, we couldn't hear or think about the gospel...makes not a lick of sense to me. But then again it's all spun in circles if you ask me. The more I read about it and ask questions the more beating around the bush I get.

I believe part of calvinism, I just do not believe that there is limited atonement for all mankind. If we were gonna be saved anyway, why would Jesus have to die on the cross? We would eventually, being hand picked, come around anyway without the death of Christ. We could've been grafted right into the vine just by God's authority, no doubt that could've happened....God can do what He wants to. But He is not a liar nor is He a respector of persons.


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## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> That's a straw man argument and an incorrect analogy as well. You're defining "dead man" by your own definition to suit your own purposes. The scripture no where defines us as being "dead" in the way you are describing.
> 
> Yes because of Adam's sin we are "dead in sins and trespasses", spiritually unable to fellowship with God but so was Adam after he sinned (In the day that you eat thereof you shall surely die......) but he still was able to speak physically with God. He just could not fellowship with him spiritually any more.
> 
> Likewise we today are still able to communicate with God (see Acts 10) at least within limited parameters, certainly able to respond to the preaching of the Gospel and answer God's call to repent which we MUST do according to many scriptures _before_ salvation can come.



Amen!!


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> So you get the credit or at least part of the credit for your salvation?



Why do you keep saying that over and over? No one here takes credit for their salvation....no one even insinuates that, is that all the comeback you have, that and the Lazurus story?

By responding to God's calling we are saved, just like the story of the million dollars. If someone gifted me with a million dollars but I had to meet them at the bank to get it, do you think because I go to the bank that I'm taking credit for getting the million dollars? I would absolutely not be taking any credit for it at all in any way. I'm not a total idiot, and most of the rest of us are not here either.

When you do something for someone do you expect credit for it? Do you expect to get praise for helping out a person in need? Do you expect to get credit for preaching the gospel and someone comes to Christ thru your words? My brother does, he said he actually got credit for it. He barely said but tried to backpeddle out of it. But I caught it and it wasn't the main issue at the time. This is all a new doctrine for him, too. He was not saved based on this doctrine. I can't ask my own brother a question that he don't beat around the bush, send me a link or a bunch of scriptures that don't say anything about God having 2 lines for people....one heaven bound and one hades bound. He can't answer a single question, and my son in law can't either...all he does is talk down to me and yet he's only followed this doctrine for a few months.

I'll shut up now...but you can't throw the entire bible away, by using one story of lazurus or insinuating that people are taking credit for their own salvation, no one here does and no one i've even known to be saved has been nothing but thankful for their salvation and has never said a word about credit.

And no matter how much you dislike John 3:16  everyone is saved based on the truth in that scripture....at least all the people I know....not just baptists, either.


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## hummerpoo

mtnwoman said:


> I personally think it's possible that Paul, Jonah, Abraham are the very elect that are spoken of in the scripture that the TULIP followers are trying to fit themselves into. A lot of those verses make sense. If you realize that the Jews are the chosen and that the elect that cannot refuse God, those are the people that were the elect and chosen of God for a purpose, that they otherwise might not do on their own will.  Take Judas for example...or even Peter. We don't fit in that group.....well I mean generally we don't.
> 
> And I'm just wondering on that, too. Piece by piece we might fit some of the puzzle together.



Your thoughts are on a path that I stumbled on to a while back.  I haven't been able to get the fog out of my brain on it yet, and may never, but it does seem there is something that fits between salvation under law and sovereignty of God.  After all, God doesn't change, He can't, He is holy.
We'd better leave that out of this discussion though.  There seems to be enough here already.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Why do you keep saying that over and over?



Why? Because I smell a will worshipper and God has given me a great burden for the will worshipper. He made me to be one for 26 years. He allowed me along with the Baptist preacher, teachers and friends to carve a god into my imagination. I did what those people told me to do to be saved, and I wasn't. I went out soul winning with them and used a system to deceive others into thinking they were saved as well. I pray that I did not make them two fold the child of he11. I convinced myself and others that I was saved and they were to.

But GOD (there you go) who is rich in mercy and grace, tore me all to pieces. He turned me inside out and revealed the inward, and it was ugly. He created life where there was none before. He shredded the god I had carved, loved and worshipped. He replaced the things that I was confident in, my will, my decision, my choice, all my works. He replaced them with Himself. He gave me ears to hear and I heard. He gave me eyes to see and I saw. Only then did this new creature leave those worthless things behind.

I have a great burden for the will worshippers who are headed to he11 at 60 seconds per minute. They are going to split he11 wide open with John 3:16 on their lips and a Bible under their arm. They are going to drag as many as they can along with them. I can't save them but God can and does. God makes the sinner and reveals the sinner. He will save every one of the objects of His love. None will perish!

I have been accused here in this thread of being superior or bent a certain direction and that breaks my heart but it is OK. I can not change perception but God can and does.

I recently had an encounter with someone I love so much, my daughter. I was in the kitchen cooking and had just pulled a very hot pan from the oven and placed it on top. Out of love and concern, I turned to her and said " Katie, be careful of that pan. It is very hot". She looked up at me and laid a charge against me that broke my heart. She said "You just think I'm stupid and you're smarter than me".

 I could not help her perception but God could and does. I prayed that God would put her in contact with a hot pan and he did. Now, out of love and concern, she warns her brother.


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## hummerpoo

gtparts said:


> Certainly God exerted pressure to get Saul's attention, temporarily taking his physical sight to facilitate spiritual "sight". Fairly extreme, I agree. Nevertheless, Saul still had choices to make. No doubt the entire experience served to cause Saul to choose wisely. Some of us have also experienced dramatic things in order for God to get our attention. Others, not so dramatic. Just goes to show that God is more concerned about our character than our comfort.



I'll let this one marinate for a little while.  I think you may have uncover one of the foundation stones of wisdom.


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## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> Why? Because I smell a will worshipper and God has given me a great burden for the will worshipper. He made me to be one for 26 years. He allowed me along with the Baptist preacher, teachers and friends to carve a god into my imagination. I did what those people told me to do to be saved, and I wasn't. I went out soul winning with them and used a system to deceive others into thinking they were saved as well. I pray that I did not make them two fold the child of he11. I convinced myself and others that I was saved and they were to.



God "made you to be a will worshipper" for 26 years?  I am sorry, but the Bible teaches that we are creatures of free will and bear responsibility for our own actions.  If you were a will-worshipper, it wasn't God, you made the choice.

The part, it seems, that led you to where you were was the fact you did what people told you... rather than going to the Scriptures and finding the answers you sought.  If we blindly follow others or rely on emotions to direct our paths, we will likely find ourselves in error because we have began depending on something else than the word.  I'm just speaking from the information you've provided.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> I could not help her perception but God could and does. I prayed that God would put her in contact with a hot pan and he did. Now, out of love and concern, she warns her brother.



Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but I don't think you should ever pray that the Lord harm your daughter so that she'll learn a lesson.

Why wouldn't you pray that she learn without getting burned?

Why wouldn't you respond in a more gentle manner?  Or at least discuss with her the reasoning behind your response?


----------



## Branchminnow

John 3:16 emphasis on the word ALL. The elect are those who have been saved. WE sometimes read alot into the scriptures that is not there.......it says what is says, it may mean different things to different people, but dont complicate the simpleness of the word with over analization.


----------



## gtparts

hummerpoo said:


> I'll let this one marinate for a little while.  I think you may have uncover(ed) one of the foundation stones of wisdom.





Not mine. Picked it up from Jeremy Kingsley, evangelist, who probably got it from somebody else, who got it from someone else, or perhaps by divine revelation. At any rate, I have found this to be true in my life, in the lives of many others, and a principle, made obvious in much of Scripture. Adversity, "allowed by God", is always intended to teach us something..... humility, perseverance, gratitude or to point us to our shortcomings or misunderstandings, for correction. Everything that is unpleasant is not intended for evil (comes from Satan). Often it is a means of sanctification, making us wiser, stronger, and more useful to the Kingdom.


----------



## gtparts

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but I don't think you should ever pray that the Lord harm your daughter so that she'll learn a lesson.
> 
> Why wouldn't you pray that she learn without getting burned?
> 
> Why wouldn't you respond in a more gentle manner?  Or at least discuss with her the reasoning behind your response?



I agree, rj. My almost instant reaction was to label this as cruelty, but when it comes to salvation, it is far from cruel if it results in someone coming to Christ. 

Perhaps it should be "softened" by praying that the lesson be learned with as little pain or suffering. Sometimes kids will just not take a parent's word; they insist on finding out for themselves.


----------



## rjcruiser

gtparts said:


> I agree, rj. My almost instant reaction was to label this as cruelty, but when it comes to salvation, it is far from cruel if it results in someone coming to Christ.
> 
> Perhaps it should be "softened" by praying that the lesson be learned with as little pain or suffering. Sometimes kids will just not take a parent's word; they insist on finding out for themselves.



I understand, but to wish it on them...that is not a Biblical response, is it?

I know that I discipline my kids.  When I do, it hurts them enough so that they remember not to do it again.  But it pains me as well....and I work very hard to not discipline out of anger.

Maybe I read the response incorrectly.


----------



## ambush80

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but I don't think you should ever pray that the Lord harm your daughter so that she'll learn a lesson.
> 
> Why wouldn't you pray that she learn without getting burned?
> 
> Why wouldn't you respond in a more gentle manner?  Or at least discuss with her the reasoning behind your response?



I think gemcgrew is reading and comprehending the Bible correctly.  His way of teaching his daughter is modeled after how God teaches.  The rest of you don't want to accept what it CLEARLY states in the Bible about God, His nature and the nature of omniscience, so you do mental cartwheels, engage in special pleading or just give up and say "I don't know how it works but it can't be just like how it says in the Bible because that would be unjust."  

I am constantly told that I have no place in judging what God does or how he does it and neither do you.  Just read it, understand it and obey it.

If He exists and the Bible is His book, then gemcgrew is reading and understanding it well.  If you don't like it maybe you should find another book to follow, or none at all.


----------



## rjcruiser

ambush80 said:


> I think gemcgrew is reading and comprehending the Bible correctly.  His way of teaching his daughter is modeled after how God teaches.  The rest of you don't want to accept what it CLEARLY states in the Bible about God, His nature and the nature of omniscience, so you do mental cartwheels, engage in special pleading or just give up and say "I don't know how it works but it can't be just like how it says in the Bible because that would be unjust."
> 
> I am constantly told that I have no place in judging what God does or how he does it and neither do you.  Just read it, understand it and obey it.
> 
> If He exists and the Bible is His book, then gemcgrew is reading and understanding it well.  If you don't like it maybe you should find another book to follow, or none at all.



Or...how about you actually post something meaningful rather than troll around stirring up nothing but trouble.


----------



## ambush80

rjcruiser said:


> Or...how about you actually post something meaningful rather than troll around stirring up nothing but trouble.



I've been deeply engaged in this discussion for a long time.  

You don't like what I'm saying so you call me a troll.

The truth hurts.


----------



## rjcruiser

ambush80 said:


> I've been deeply engaged in this discussion for a long time.
> 
> You don't like what I'm saying so you call me a troll.
> 
> The truth hurts.



No...you specifically tried to demean gemcrew's position.  Had you left that out of your post, I would've been fine with it.  However, you showed your true intentions by trying to bash him.

Troll.


----------



## ambush80

rjcruiser said:


> No...you specifically tried to demean gemcrew's position.  Had you left that out of your post, I would've been fine with it.  However, you showed your true intentions by trying to bash him.
> 
> Troll.



I'm bashing him by agreeing with him?  Wow.....

You're discernment powers are broken.  Must be getting a weak signal due to the weather.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> I'm bashing him by agreeing with him?  Wow.....
> 
> You're discernment powers are broken.  Must be getting a weak signal due to the weather.



Looks to me like it was equal opportunity sarcasm.......

I have avoided this thread pretty much, it has gone in circles for a month or so, I think.

I think the bigger point to your comments, in light of the thread, is: does God teach (on the assumption God exists, of course), and can man learn?  If man is so evil he cannot respond to God, then there is no teaching involved, he is just acting out the script.  Doesn't make much sense, really.  What could God teach if man has no free will?  Why repent of anything, sin was predestined, and not our fault, really.

Then, man is limiting God, because God can't teach because man can't learn.  Something to think about anyway......


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> I think gemcgrew is reading and comprehending the Bible correctly.  His way of teaching his daughter is modeled after how God teaches.  The rest of you don't want to accept what it CLEARLY states in the Bible about God, His nature and the nature of omniscience, so you do mental cartwheels, engage in special pleading or just give up and say "I don't know how it works but it can't be just like how it says in the Bible because that would be unjust."
> 
> I am constantly told that I have no place in judging what God does or how he does it and neither do you.  Just read it, understand it and obey it.
> 
> If He exists and the Bible is His book, then gemcgrew is reading and understanding it well.  If you don't like it maybe you should find another book to follow, or none at all.



The position both of you present cannot be supported by a complete study of the New Testament.  "Like" has no place in the discussion... the matter has everything to do with what God's word says.  Man, simply put, possesses the choice to determine his/her eternal destiny... and we do that by either accepting or rejecting the offer of grace God has made available to us.  My friend... that's what is CLEARLY stated in God's word.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Looks to me like it was equal opportunity sarcasm.......
> 
> I have avoided this thread pretty much, it has gone in circles for a month or so, I think.
> 
> I think the bigger point to your comments, in light of the thread, is: does God teach (on the assumption God exists, of course), and can man learn?  If man is so evil he cannot respond to God, then there is no teaching involved, he is just acting out the script.  Doesn't make much sense, really.  What could God teach if man has no free will?  Why repent of anything, sin was predestined, and not our fault, really.
> 
> Then, man is limiting God, because God can't teach because man can't learn.  Something to think about anyway......




Assuming an omniscient God (any God), free will cannot exist.  The best explanation of how this paradox could possibly exist has been "I don't know how but it does."

As you know, there is alot of the Bible that doesn't make sense to me.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> Assuming an omniscient God (any God), free will cannot exist.  The best explanation of how this paradox could possibly exist has been "I don't know how but it does."



Christians like to say that God exists in all dimensions, past, present, and future because he is outside of time....infinite.

However, I would contend that the past does not exist, outside of memory or history, but not in a literal sense.  We (everything) would also have to simultaneously exist in the current time and each and every moment we have ever existed in.  There would be infinite dimensions of existence.  We can know the past because we have been there.

If this is the case with the past, what are the implications of the future?  Could it be an onmiscient God created something, and now watches where it goes.  Like building a race-car track.  You know they are going to turn left, but some parts of the race are unknowable until they happen.

Just a thought, or, a better explanation than "I don't know."  In no way a claim to fact, though.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Christians like to say that God exists in all dimensions, past, present, and future because he is outside of time....infinite.
> 
> However, I would contend that the past does not exist, outside of memory or history, but not in a literal sense.  We (everything) would also have to simultaneously exist in the current time and each and every moment we have ever existed in.  There would be infinite dimensions of existence.  We can know the past because we have been there.
> 
> If this is the case with the past, what are the implications of the future?  Could it be an onmiscient God created something, and now watches where it goes.  Like building a race-car track.  You know they are going to turn left, but some parts of the race are unknowable until they happen.
> 
> Just a thought, or, a better explanation than "I don't know."  In no way a claim to fact, though.



Its an interesting theoretical notion.  There really would be no "watching" in the sense of things unfolding.  All things would be experienced simultaneously; your birth, your death and your soul either rotting in He11 or basking in Heaven. 

If we want to play the "Alternate Universes Game" you could be doing both rotting in He11 and basking in Heaven simultaneously.  But there's no mention of such a thing occurring in the Bible; with the exception of God and His omniscience, which I'm pretty sure is, as a Biblical principle an addendum.

Better to not go "there" and simply use the notions that are put forth in the Bible in their simplest terms, if you decide to use it at all.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> Its an interesting theoretical notion.  There really would be no "watching" in the sense of things unfolding.  All things would be experienced simultaneously; your birth, your death and your soul either rotting in He11 or basking in Heaven. .



Only if the future has already happened.  Then, yes, we would already be in heaven.  But we aren't.

I believe the only "reality" is the current reality.  Right now is the only actual time in existence.  No alternate dimensions, no past me, no future me.  But, I was put on that race track.  



ambush80 said:


> Better to not go "there" and simply use the notions that are put forth in the Bible in their simplest terms, if you decide to use it at all.



eh, I am one of those who can't handle the "I don't know" stuff.


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Only if the future has already happened.  Then, yes, we would already be in heaven.  But we aren't.
> 
> I believe the only "reality" is the current reality.  Right now is the only actual time in existence.  No alternate dimensions, no past me, no future me.  But, I was put on that race track.
> 
> 
> 
> eh, I am one of those who can't handle the "I don't know" stuff.



As you stated before, in a state of omniscience all things are known and observed simultaneously.  "Already happened" doesn't really apply.  It just occurred to me that when the Bible says that a lost soul will be cast into the lake of fire to burn in He11 for eternity that to an omniscient being, eternity doesn't exist.  From His perspective, you've been there for quite some time already; eternally, as it were.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> As you stated before, in a state of omniscience all things are known and observed simultaneously.  "Already happened" doesn't really apply.  It just occurred to me that when the Bible says that a lost soul will be cast into the lake of fire to burn in He11 for eternity that to an omniscient being, eternity doesn't exist.  From His perspective, you've been there for quite some time already; eternally, as it were.



Ok, and I would say that is a case against predestination.

We discussed in another thread about why I believed in God, and I pointed to the existence of life as the best indicator.  If you recall, Atlas posted a video describing how life could come about without God in the equation.  That was just a theory, right?  So are my thoughts.  I do not think omniscient means what everybody thinks it means.


----------



## JB0704

Ambush, here is a link to something close to what I am implying:

http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?file=article&name=News&sid=14

In summary, God would know all that is "knowable."  This does not mean the entire future is knowable, because it is not yet a reality.  Understanding the past, and present would give a good indication of future events (race-trac analogy), but the folks driving the cars might not follow "script" (Eve), and God might change the "script" himself.  I think this is kind-of how I see it currently.....free-will inside the context of creation.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I have a great burden for the will worshippers who are headed to he11 at 60 seconds per minute. They are going to split he11 wide open with John 3:16 on their lips and a Bible under their arm. They are going to drag as many as they can along with them. I can't save them but God can and does. God makes the sinner and reveals the sinner. He will save every one of the objects of His love. None will perish!



Well you don't need to burden yourself with the so called will worshippers, because if they were predestined to go to hades they would've anyway, right? Like you said you can't save them, but God can and does or doesn't. So why are you so worried about the ones that are chosen to be unsaved anyway?

I hope you are not saying that people who believe in free will and believe John 3:16 are hades bound?? That's a pretty huge judgement on your part, you are the one that makes your own self seem like you are superior. 

God tears us all up.


----------



## Huntinfool

Perhaps he should go read the first few verses of Matt 5, huh Annie?


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Ok, and I would say that is a case against predestination.
> 
> We discussed in another thread about why I believed in God, and I pointed to the existence of life as the best indicator.  If you recall, Atlas posted a video describing how life could come about without God in the equation.  That was just a theory, right?  So are my thoughts.  I do not think omniscient means what everybody thinks it means.



Lets use this definition from Webster:

_om·ni·scient
adj \-shÉ™nt\
Definition of OMNISCIENT
1
: having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
2
: possessed of universal or complete knowledge _

That certainly sounds like a super power that God would possess and if so, no free will.





JB0704 said:


> Ambush, here is a link to something close to what I am implying:
> 
> http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?file=article&name=News&sid=14
> 
> In summary, God would know all that is "knowable."  This does not mean the entire future is knowable, because it is not yet a reality.  Understanding the past, and present would give a good indication of future events (race-trac analogy), but the folks driving the cars might not follow "script" (Eve), and God might change the "script" himself.  I think this is kind-of how I see it currently.....free-will inside the context of creation.



That's not omniscient and I applaud you for taking that unpopular position.  It allows you to remain logically consistent (which is what gemcgrew does as well) without having to jump through all those "special exception" hoops


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Perhaps he should go read the first few verses of Matt 5, huh Annie?



Maybe I should go read it again!


----------



## ambush80

Bama4me said:


> The position both of you present cannot be supported by a complete study of the New Testament.  "Like" has no place in the discussion... the matter has everything to do with what God's word says.  Man, simply put, possesses the choice to determine his/her eternal destiny... and we do that by either accepting or rejecting the offer of grace God has made available to us.  My friend... that's what is CLEARLY stated in God's word.




It also says "I have known you before the beginning of time", among other things that point to His omniscience.

What you have there is what is known in the business as a paradox.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Lets use this definition from Webster:
> 
> _om·ni·scient
> adj \-shÉ™nt\
> Definition of OMNISCIENT
> 1
> : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
> 2
> : possessed of universal or complete knowledge _
> 
> That certainly sounds like a super power that God would possess and if so, no free will.



That defination doesn's say a thing about all controlling. It says all knowing...we all agree on that.
That doesn't mean we don't have free will, obviously we do or we wouldn't keep sinning after we are saved and we do. To continue in sin is NOT God's will...it is our own.

We all agree that God knows who will chose to be saved and who won't. Nobody denies that. But if we lived in God's perfect will we, the saved/elect would be perfect. 
No matter how hard we try we will always fall short of the mark...because we do have free will.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> It also says "I have known you before the beginning of time", among other things that point to His omniscience.



Nobody here denies that. We all know that. That isn't even a part of the debate. Obviously if we believe in the Bible or even have any interest in understanding revelation we know God already has it planned out and knows what will happen to each and every one of us. And there's nothing we can do to change that.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Well you don't need to burden yourself with the so called will worshippers



I didn't and I refuse the credit. God delivered me from that years ago.




mtnwoman said:


> Like you said you can't save them, but God can and does or doesn't. So why are you so worried about the ones that are chosen to be unsaved anyway?



Worried? No! Obedient? Yes



mtnwoman said:


> I hope you are not saying that people who believe in free will and believe John 3:16 are hades bound??



There are a lot of will worshippers in he11 that believed John 3:16.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.(Matthew 7:22,23)

It appears to me that they did a lot more than just believe John 3:16.



mtnwoman said:


> That's a pretty huge judgement on your part, you are the one that makes your own self seem like you are superior.



Again, perception.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> And there's nothing we can do to change that.



So now you don't believe in free will?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I have a great burden for the will worshippers who are headed to he11 at 60 seconds per minute. They are going to split he11 wide open with John 3:16 on their lips and a Bible under their arm. They are going to drag as many as they can along with them. I can't save them but God can and does. God makes the sinner and reveals the sinner. He will save every one of the objects of His love. None will perish!



You just said you have a great burden for the will worshippers....so you did/do or don't. When you say one thing and then change it into something....well it just ain't right.

And you've said that God will save who He wills, so all those that are going to hades with John 3:16 on their lips, are going where God predestined them anyway? right or wrong?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> So now you don't believe in free will?



Huh?

I didn't say that, I said I couldn't change anything in the Bible, in revelations. My free will ain't gonna change that I've never claimed that.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> There are a lot of will worshippers in he11 that believed John 3:16.
> 
> It appears to me that they did a lot more than just believe John 3:16.



And I bet there's a ton of folks down there that believe John 3:16 but yet never accepted Christ, because they thought they were of the chosen....what's the difference? And how'd you'd know who's down there anyway? You're liftin' yourself higher and higher.

And of course there's more to believe than John 3:16....but believe is an action, ya know...and you said we don't need to do any actions.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> You just said you have a great burden for the will worshippers....so you did/do or don't. When you say one thing and then change it into something....well it just ain't right.



You are making my head hurt. I never said I burdened myself. You misquoted me.



mtnwoman said:


> And you've said that God will save who He wills, so all those that are going to hades with John 3:16 on their lips, are going where God predestined them anyway? right or wrong?



Right and I don't know who they are.


----------



## mtnwoman

I guess I'm done here. I've been around the mullberry bush enough...can you believe it?

I still don't understand how a tulip worshipper knows when and if they are saved. I can't get a straight answer from anyone. And I've read every link sent to me and I still come up with the same answer....

He calls, we answer/submit/respond/accept/receive/either aloud or in our hearts with no credit to ourselves. Nothing we do except to receive His offer of salvation by His mercy and grace, without that offer we cannot be saved and without accepting we have not received the free gift of salvation.


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> That defination doesn's say a thing about all controlling. It says all knowing...we all agree on that.
> That doesn't mean we don't have free will, obviously we do or we wouldn't keep sinning after we are saved and we do. To continue in sin is NOT God's will...it is our own.
> 
> We all agree that God knows who will chose to be saved and who won't. Nobody denies that. But if we lived in God's perfect will we, the saved/elect would be perfect.
> No matter how hard we try we will always fall short of the mark...because we do have free will.



There's no controlling to be done by anyone.  It's a done deal, you just don't know it yet.  But He does.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> And I bet there's a ton of folks down there that believe John 3:16 but yet never accepted Christ, because they thought they were of the chosen....what's the difference?



No difference



mtnwoman said:


> And how'd you'd know who's down there anyway? You're liftin' yourself higher and higher.



How do I know? Again, "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

I at least know they are there.



mtnwoman said:


> And of course there's more to believe than John 3:16....but believe is an action, ya know...and you said we don't need to do any actions.



Again, dead men don't do anything. Belief is the result of life. Lazarus was dead. He could not do anything. After God created life where there was none, then action took place by Lazarus.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I still don't understand how a tulip worshipper knows when and if they are saved. I can't get a straight answer from anyone. And I've read every link sent to me and I still come up with the same answer....



I assume you are referring to me even though I have never mentioned tulip in this thread. If you are, then you never read post 436. I at least partially explained it.



mtnwoman said:


> Nothing we do except to receive His offer of salvation by His mercy and grace, without that offer we cannot be saved and without accepting we have not received the free gift of salvation.



You are almost there.


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> Lets use this definition from Webster:
> 
> _om·ni·scient
> adj \-shÉ™nt\
> Definition of OMNISCIENT
> 1
> : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
> 2
> : possessed of universal or complete knowledge _
> 
> That certainly sounds like a super power that God would possess and if so, no free will.
> 
> THIS is where your argument breaks down.  The fact our God is ominscient doesn't automatically mean He controls things outside of the free will of human beings.  I'm sorry, your assertion is simply unable to be substantiated by a complete study of God's word.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> The fact our God is ominscient doesn't automatically mean He controls things outside of the free will of human beings.  I'm sorry, your assertion is simply unable to be substantiated by a complete study of God's word.



And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)


----------



## gemcgrew

I came across this quote from Noel Smith the other day. 

"What is he11? I tell you, and I say it with profound reverence, he11 is a ghastly monument to the failure of the Triune God to save the multitudes who are there. I say it reverently, I say it with every nerve in my body tense: sinners go to he11 because God Almighty Himself could not save them! He did all He could. He failed" (Noel Smith , Editor Baptist Bible Tribune)

At least in regards to free will he was honest with what he believed.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> I came across this quote from Noel Smith the other day... At least in regards to free will he was honest with what he believed.



Here's another honest man, St. Irenaeus:


This expression of our Lord, "How often would I have gathered thy children together, 
       and thou wouldest not, (Matthew 23:37) II , set forth the ancient law of human liberty, 
       because God made man a free agent from the beginning, possessing his own power, 
       even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests of God voluntarily, and not by 
       compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will towards us is 
       present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. In man, 
       as well as the angels, He has placed the power of choice...so that those who had yielded 
       obedience might rightly possess the good, given indeed by God, but preserved by 
       themselves. On, the other hand, they who have not obeyed, shall, with justice, be not 
       found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment : for God did 
       kindly bestow on them what was good;... (Against the Heresies, IV, 37, I).


----------



## Big7

*John Calvin Made Me Catholic. NOT ME.. Just sayin'*

OK.. Go HERE: Read all about it..

http://archive.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0203dr.asp


----------



## ambush80

Bama4me said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Lets use this definition from Webster:
> 
> _om·ni·scient
> adj \-shÉ™nt\
> Definition of OMNISCIENT
> 1
> : having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
> 2
> : possessed of universal or complete knowledge _
> 
> That certainly sounds like a super power that God would possess and if so, no free will.
> 
> THIS is where your argument breaks down.  The fact our God is ominscient doesn't automatically mean He controls things outside of the free will of human beings.  I'm sorry, your assertion is simply unable to be substantiated by a complete study of God's word.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please go back and read where I said that the issue is NOT whether or not God is controlling things.
> 
> I have only been saying that God has/is/will see you be born, die and either rot in He11 or bask in Heaven.  That's omniscience.
> 
> For the last time (and I may have to raise my voice here so this doesn't come up again)  _I am not saying that God makes you go to Heaven or He11_ but He knows which place you are going and nothing you can do can change where you end up.
Click to expand...


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Bama4me said:
> 
> 
> 
> For the last time (and I may have to raise my voice here so this doesn't come up again)  _I am not saying that God makes you go to Heaven or He11_ but He knows which place you are going and nothing you can do can change where you end up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We know that, that's what I've been saying the whole time.....gems is saying that God DOES make you go to heaven or he11, that's the part I've been disagreeing with.
> 
> If you will read my posts I have said over and over that God knows what we will choose...gems says God chooses for some to go to heaven and some to go to he11 and we don't even have a choice.
> 
> I just hadda have one last comment to ambush.
Click to expand...


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but I don't think you should ever pray that the Lord harm your daughter so that she'll learn a lesson.
> 
> Why wouldn't you pray that she learn without getting burned?
> 
> Why wouldn't you respond in a more gentle manner?  Or at least discuss with her the reasoning behind your response?



rj, go back with me if you can and look into my Mother's room as she prays for her son. As she weeps for her boy, she cries out "God, please save Glenn. Please grab a hold of him and tear him all to pieces, break him, turn him inside out and show him the inward."

Or would you prefer, "God, please save Glenn. I have pointed him to Christ for 26 years and he in not willing. Please be gentle and not interfere with his will."

I tell you rj, love that does not interfere in man's will is no love at all. It is worthless love. Love that stands idly by on the sideline of the broad way and begs and pleads for man to choose, but will not interfere, is useless love.

When we say that God loves everybody and Christ died for everybody, but God gave man a free will to choose one way or another and won't interfere with that will, we are making God's love as fickle as yours and mine. We reduce the love of God to nothing. And if God intervenes, then it is not free will, but God.


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> Bama4me said:
> 
> 
> 
> Please go back and read where I said that the issue is NOT whether or not God is controlling things.
> 
> I have only been saying that God has/is/will see you be born, die and either rot in He11 or bask in Heaven.  That's omniscience.
> 
> For the last time (and I may have to raise my voice here so this doesn't come up again)  _I am not saying that God makes you go to Heaven or He11_ but He knows which place you are going and nothing you can do can change where you end up.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whether you yell or not, your final statement continues to be contradictory.  You say that God doesn't make us go to a specific eternal destiny, yet you say there's nothing we can do to change where we end up... if we can't change it, God has made the choice for us!  I don't understand how you can't see the contradiction in what you're saying.
Click to expand...


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> rj, go back with me if you can and look into my Mother's room as she prays for her son. As she weeps for her boy, she cries out "God, please save Glenn. Please grab a hold of him and tear him all to pieces, break him, turn him inside out and show him the inward."
> 
> Or would you prefer, "God, please save Glenn. I have pointed him to Christ for 26 years and he in not willing. Please be gentle and not interfere with his will."
> 
> I tell you rj, love that does not interfere in man's will is no love at all. It is worthless love. Love that stands idly by on the sideline of the broad way and begs and pleads for man to choose, but will not interfere, is useless love.
> 
> When we say that God loves everybody and Christ died for everybody, but God gave man a free will to choose one way or another and won't interfere with that will, we are making God's love as fickle as yours and mine. We reduce the love of God to nothing. And if God intervenes, then it is not free will, but God.



We are on the same page as far as predestination.

I'm just not sure I'd agree with praying for trials for your child.  I pray that God will use any means necessary, but I certainly hope that they are not trials.  If they are, blessed be the name of the Lord.  If they're not, blessed be the name of the Lord.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35)



Context... context... context.  You do realize this is a statement made by an uninspired man?  In other words, this is just a statement made by a man who was not speaking on behalf of God?  Again, you can go and pick out a verse here and there which seems to prove your point... but an ENTIRE study of the New Testament will clearly prove that man possesses free will.


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> Context... context... context.  You do realize this is a statement made by an uninspired man?  In other words, this is just a statement made by a man who was not speaking on behalf of God?  Again, you can go and pick out a verse here and there which seems to prove your point... but an ENTIRE study of the New Testament will clearly prove that man possesses free will.



I did not realize that you were New Testament only. I will comply. Matthew 11:20-27, Matthew 28:18, Romans 9:20-24, Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 1:22...

John 6:37-40, John 6:44-45, John 6:63, Romans 8:30, Galatians 1:15-16, Ephesians 1:18-20, Ephesians 2:1-5...

Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, Colossians 2:12...

Romans 3:20-28, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:23, Romans 11:6, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 1 Corinthians 15:10, 2 Timothy 1:9...


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> We are on the same page as far as predestination.
> 
> I'm just not sure I'd agree with praying for trials for your child.  I pray that God will use any means necessary, but I certainly hope that they are not trials.  If they are, blessed be the name of the Lord.  If they're not, blessed be the name of the Lord.



RJ, I know this is an "old" question, but could you clarify the purpose of prayer if the result has already occurred from God's perspective (timeless and infinite, see my previous exchange with ambush)?


----------



## ambush80

Bama4me said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Whether you yell or not, your final statement continues to be contradictory.  You say that God doesn't make us go to a specific eternal destiny, yet you say there's nothing we can do to change where we end up... if we can't change it, God has made the choice for us!  I don't understand how you can't see the contradiction in what you're saying.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are confusing Omnipotence with Omniscience.  I will help you.
> 
> _om·nip·o·tence
> noun \äm-Ëˆni-pÉ™-tÉ™n(t)s\
> 
> Definition of OMNIPOTENCE
> 1
> : the quality or state of being omnipotent
> 2
> : an agency or force of unlimited power_
> 
> There is a definition of Omniscience in a post above.
> 
> Back to the discussion at hand.  This is a very straight forward philosophical concept.  In respect to the notion of OMNISCIENCE, try to reconcile free will.
> 
> If you want to talk about omnipotence or potters or the will of God we can do that in another thread.
> 
> Omniscience: all knowing.  Omnipotence:all powerful
> 
> Let's keep the conversation about omniscience.
Click to expand...


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> RJ, I know this is an "old" question, but could you clarify the purpose of prayer if the result has already occurred from God's perspective (timeless and infinite, see my previous exchange with ambush)?





Do you find that the conversation is different if we substitute the notion of Fate in place of God's omniscience?


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Let's keep the conversation about omniscience.



Personally, I can't without diving into the sovereignty of an Almighty God that encompasses All things. Maybe someone else can.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I did not realize that you were New Testament only. I will comply. Matthew 11:20-27, Matthew 28:18, Romans 9:20-24, Ephesians 1:11, Ephesians 1:22...
> 
> John 6:37-40, John 6:44-45, John 6:63, Romans 8:30, Galatians 1:15-16, Ephesians 1:18-20, Ephesians 2:1-5...
> 
> Ephesians 2:8-9, Philippians 1:29, Colossians 2:12...
> 
> Romans 3:20-28, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:23, Romans 11:6, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 1 Corinthians 15:10, 2 Timothy 1:9...



The New Testament... or Christ's law is our authority in religious matters (see Colossians 2:13-14, Hebrews 1:1ff).  In all these passages, there is nothing that indicates man doesn't have free will... and that he uses that free will to choose himself what eternity will be.

God/Christ has authority/is sovereign... but that doesn't mean He "controls" mankind.  The US government has authority over our life, but we ultimately choose.  It is very ironic you cite these passages:
*  John 6:37-40 - verse 40 says "everyone who sees the Son and BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life."
*  Ephesians 2:8 - you are saved by grace THROUGH faith.
*  Colossians 2:12 - raised with Him THROUGH faith.

The verses you cite in Ephesians 1 surround verses 12-13, verses which clearly indicate people are saved by their actions of belief in the gospel.  Does that mean we earn our salvation?  Absolutely not (million dollar example of above)!  Are we predestined?  Yes... but as a group, not as individuals like students in a classrom.  Answer me this, if man doesn't exercise free will to receive salvation, why did Joshua say "CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve" (Joshua 24:15) if God had already chosen for them?  And why did Paul say "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12) if God had already worked it out for them?

Again, your position takes many passages (many of them out of context - like Romans, which most often discusses the law of Christ verses the law of Moses) and twists them into something that is not meant (like assuming that "having authority over" means puppeteering).


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> Personally, I can't without diving into the sovereignty of an Almighty God that encompasses All things. Maybe someone else can.



Think of it this way:

God is all knowing (omniscience) but He is also all powerful (omnipotent), they are very distinct qualities. You can talk about predestination in regards to each superpower separately.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> Do you find that the conversation is different if we substitute the notion of Fate in place of God's omniscience?



I would think fate, as in "destined," would line up the same as "God's will," better than "God's omniscience."  It changes things, in that, things might not go as planned.  I don't believe everything that happens is God's will.  I think that is what you were asking......


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> I would think fate, as in "destined," would line up the same as "God's will," better than "God's omniscience."  It changes things, in that, things might not go as planned.  I don't believe everything that happens is God's will.  I think that is what you were asking......



I guess I was thinking of Fate as a more secular notion.  I guess the Greeks had a God or Demigods named The Fates but I what was getting at was that if there existed an omniscient being, say for example the very best psychic ever; the Uber-psychic, would "choice" still exist?


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Think of it this way:
> 
> God is all knowing (omniscience) but He is also all powerful (omnipotent), they are very distinct qualities. You can talk about predestination in regards to each superpower separately.



I understand that. Some will take omniscience and use it this way "Because God is all knowing, He knew who would accept or reject and so He knew who to elect. But I say that is wrong. That would still make mans will or choice the determining factor of salvation. Not God's will or choice.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> I guess I was thinking of Fate as a more secular notion.  I guess the Greeks had a God or Demigods named The Fates but I what was getting at was that if there existed an omniscient being, say for example the very best psychic ever; the Uber-psychic, would "choice" still exist?



In a sense, no.  We go back to the concept of time.  If the future is knowable, then in some way it is already determined, or has already happened or happenning simultaneously.  Decisions now would not alter that if it could be known.   So, I guess in theory there would be no choice.  We would just be doing what "fate" would have, even if we think we are changing our mind.

Which is why I don't believe the future is entirely knowable.  You and I know the future, to some extent.  We can predict the sunrise, and that race car drivers will almost always turn left.  It is the variables that are out of our control that we cannot predict.  This is where I think omniscience is limited.  Free will is the variable in the universe.  It is also the answer to the problem of evil.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Not God's will or choice.



Why is it not God's will that all be saved?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Why is it not God's will that all be saved?



If it is, they will be. But we know from Scripture the reality of he11 and the suffering there. So we have to ask who is being referred to in the Scriptures that indicate "all" and "whosoever". I say it is the elect, the objects of God's love.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> If it is, they will be. But we know from Scripture the reality of he11 and the suffering there. So we have to ask who is being referred to in the Scriptures that indicate "all" and "whosoever". I say it is the elect, the objects of God's love.



Ok.  I appreciate your honesty.  I had this conversation with another person with similar beliefs recently, and that was the first time I had ever heard or considered the concept of God's love not being universal.  I do not agree with it, based on a lot of the verses which have already been debated between yourself and others (2 Peter 3:9), but do find your position logically consistent.

I think the concept of free-will and election are mutually exclusive.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  I appreciate your honesty.  I had this conversation with another person with similar beliefs recently, and that was the first time I had ever heard or considered the concept of God's love not being universal.  I do not agree with it, based on a lot of the verses which have already been debated between yourself and others (2 Peter 3:9), but do find your position logically consistent.
> 
> I think the concept of free-will and election are mutually exclusive.



You referred to (2 Peter 3:9). Go back to the beginning of the chapter and determine who is being written to, the "beloved". I say it is obvious that he is writing to believers.

Knowing he is writing to believers, how does this verse now read? "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward (the believers?), not willing that any(believers?) should perish, but that all (believers?)should come to repentance.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> You referred to (2 Peter 3:9). Go back to the beginning of the chapter and determine who is being written to, the "beloved". I say it is obvious that he is writing to believers.
> 
> Knowing he is writing to believers, how does this verse now read? "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward (the believers?), not willing that any(believers?) should perish, but that all (believers?)should come to repentance.



....or, could "beloved" be like your or me addressing a personal letter as "Dear GEMCGREW,"


----------



## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> I understand that. Some will take omniscience and use it this way "Because God is all knowing, He knew who would accept or reject and so He knew who to elect. But I say that is wrong. *That would still make mans will or choice the determining factor of salvation. Not God's will or choice.*



Grace is an undeserving gift, which God has granted mankind. How does Gods' will or choice play under this premise? How does it play under mans will or choice?

Does Gods' grace play any role in salvation? Of course it does. If God is giving a gift of salvation is it not mankinds choice to accept that gift?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> ....or, could "beloved" be like your or me addressing a personal letter as "Dear GEMCGREW,"



Go read it again. Do you think he is trying to stir up the PURE minds of unbelievers?

Once you establish that, establish for whom is the Bible written? You may want to establish that and go back and read it all over again.


----------



## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> Go read it again. Do you think he is trying to stir up the PURE minds of unbelievers?


Do believers even have pure minds?



> Once you establish that, establish *for whom is the Bible written*? You may want to establish that and go back and read it all over again.


How could the answer to that not be "everyone"?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Go read it again. Do you think he is trying to stir up the PURE minds of unbelievers?
> 
> Once you establish that, establish for whom is the Bible written? You may want to establish that and go back and read it all over again.



Do you mean the read the whole Bible again?

Honestly, I think the OT was written for the Jews, and the gospels, Acts, etc. were written for everybody.  The letters were written for who they were written for and are used as instructions for the Church today.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> RJ, I know this is an "old" question, but could you clarify the purpose of prayer if the result has already occurred from God's perspective (timeless and infinite, see my previous exchange with ambush)?



For our own sanctification.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> For our own sanctification.



But how is that an act we can contribute to?  Wouldn't God who elects us also sanctify us because we are unable to respond?


----------



## JB0704

The below seems to descibe the act of choosing.  If one is elected by God, does God elect for them to turn away?  Why would it be better for them not to get initially elected if God decided to unelect them, which is the case here if there is no free-will?

2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> But how is that an act we can contribute to?  Wouldn't God who elects us also sanctify us because we are unable to respond?



Nope...once He makes us alive in Him (calls us, we respond and we are given the Holy Spirit), we have the will to obey.  God provides us a way of escape from every temptation.  Doesn't mean that we always take it.

Our sin penalty has been paid for.  However, we will still be judged/rewarded for our deeds.


----------



## gemcgrew

stringmusic said:


> Do believers even have pure minds?
> 
> 
> How could the answer to that not be "everyone"?



Is it the living Word of God? Is it spiritual? Would spiritual eyes be required to understand it?

That being said, even the reprobate, if he read it and followed the principals as best he could, would benefit in this life.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Our sin penalty has been paid for.  However, we will still be judged/rewarded for our deeds.



Can the judgement for your deeds result in he11?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...once He makes us alive in Him (calls us, we respond and we are given the Holy Spirit), we have the will to obey.



I am not being difficult here, but could you point me to where the Bible says free-will is part of the gift of election?

I believe we are free to choose pre or post.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> However, we will still be judged/rewarded for our deeds.



Again, I don't understand how materialism, or personal satisfaction, lines up with the rest of the message.  This implies we do good deeds for us, so we will be rewarded, where is God in the equation?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Can the judgement for your deeds result in he11?



How can deeds result in anything?  If God elects us, we would not be able to change that, would we?  That would give man authority over God.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> I believe we are free to choose pre or post.



Pre or post what?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> If God elects us, we would not be able to change that, would we?


No



JB0704 said:


> That would give man authority over God.


Yes


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Pre or post what?



Salvation. 

Like I said previously, we are looking at the same scriptures from two different directions.  I am reading through 2 Peter right now, and see your point, but also understand that either side could be clinging to what might simply be cultural discrepancies in the translation or interpretation.  A good example of how two cultures might view the same scripture would be 2 Peter 2:16 KJV (has to be KJV for the example to work).  I would challenge anybody to let their teenager read that and see if they don't chuckle.

A good example of free will having a role is 2 Peter 2 :20, we discussed earlier, but it clearly states that people have escaped by clinging to knowledge, not election.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> No
> 
> 
> Yes



Like I said, I do think your position is consistent, regardless of whether or not I agree.


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> I understand that. Some will take omniscience and use it this way "Because God is all knowing, He knew who would accept or reject and so He knew who to elect. But I say that is wrong. That would still make mans will or choice the determining factor of salvation. Not God's will or choice.



I like how you know what you know and you stick to it.  The saved ones are chosen by God.  They are special, but no more special that the ones that He chose to burn in He11. They all serve a purpose, but their purpose is a secret that only He knows.  It makes sense in regards to how I understand the God of the Bible operates. 



JB0704 said:


> In a sense, no.  We go back to the concept of time.  If the future is knowable, then in some way it is already determined, or has already happened or happenning simultaneously.  Decisions now would not alter that if it could be known.   So, I guess in theory there would be no choice.  We would just be doing what "fate" would have, even if we think we are changing our mind.
> 
> Which is why I don't believe the future is entirely knowable.  You and I know the future, to some extent.  We can predict the sunrise, and that race car drivers will almost always turn left.  It is the variables that are out of our control that we cannot predict.  This is where I think omniscience is limited.  Free will is the variable in the universe.  It is also the answer to the problem of evil.



I like your position as well.  God is not omniscient or partially omniscient.  I recall someone saying that God turns off his omniscience powers sometimes.  I suppose that could be so.  If He can do that, then He could make a burrito so hot that He can't eat it.  I could get behind that guy, too.



JB0704 said:


> Like I said, I do think your position is consistent, regardless of whether or not I agree.



It's admirable, don't you think?  No need for special pleading or discernment; just straight up from the pages.


----------



## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> I like your position as well.  God is not omniscient or partially omniscient.  I recall someone saying that God turns off his omniscience powers sometimes.  I suppose that could be so.  If He can do that, then He could make a burrito so hot that He can't eat it.  I could get behind that guy, too.



.....or a rock so big he can't lift it?  I always liked those questions.  But my position is that the future is a concept only, not reality, and the only reality is the one we are in.  If the past or future existed, then we would have to exist within those realities as well at each moment within those realities, and you would have infinite realities.

That being the case, the future may not be fully knowable as it is only a concept, as free will represents a variable which can change things.  So, omniscient might not include knowledge of everything that will happen.  Just a good predicatbility factor based on knowing everything that has happened or is happening.


----------



## stringmusic

Gemcgrew, I would like to see your thoughts on post #502


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> .....or a rock so big he can't lift it?  I always liked those questions.  But my position is that the future is a concept only, not reality, and the only reality is the one we are in.  If the past or future existed, then we would have to exist within those realities as well at each moment within those realities, and you would have infinite realities.
> 
> That being the case, the future may not be fully knowable as it is only a concept, as free will represents a variable which can change things.  So, omniscient might not include knowledge of everything that will happen.  Just a good predicatbility factor based on knowing everything that has happened or is happening.



That's the problem I have with allowing for the supernatural.  It opens a whole big can of worms. And using the Bible, or any other religious text as a guide to try to understand the supernatural seems inadequate.  Especially considering who wrote it.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> Can the judgement for your deeds result in he11?



No.  If saved, always saved.



JB0704 said:


> I am not being difficult here, but could you point me to where the Bible says free-will is part of the gift of election?
> 
> I believe we are free to choose pre or post.




Ephesians 2

1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.



Whose faith?  Salvation is a gift, or to simplify, a reward for faith, right?

I guess my point is that there are two ways of looking at this stuff.

On one hand, God does not love everybody, and only chooses a few, and sends everybody else to he11.  On the other hand, God loves everybody, offers salvation to all, and gives it to those who take it.

From where I sit, and as I read the gospels, postition 2 seems more consitent with the nature of Jesus.

But, that scripture does not point out where free-will is a gift of salvation.


----------



## Ronnie T

The Elect:

Acts 2:47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.  (KJV)

And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved. (NASB)


----------



## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Whose faith?  Salvation is a gift, or to simplify, a reward for faith, right?
> 
> I guess my point is that there are two ways of looking at this stuff.
> 
> On one hand, God does not love everybody, and only chooses a few, and sends everybody else to he11.  On the other hand, God loves everybody, offers salvation to all, and gives it to those who take it.
> 
> From where I sit, and as I read the gospels, postition 2 seems more consitent with the nature of Jesus.
> 
> But, that scripture does not point out where free-will is a gift of salvation.



As I understand it from a potter to clay perspective,  this could be in fact the way it works and you really don't have any authority to question it.  His ways are not your ways.  

Doesn't sound just or kind to me either but the scripture that gemcgrew puts forth makes a strong argument for it working like that.


----------



## gemcgrew

stringmusic said:


> Grace is an undeserving gift, which God has granted mankind.


If you are saying God's grace is available to all of mankind, I would disagree. His grace is bestowed on the elect (the object's of His love). That doesn't mean the vessels of wrath don't benefit from the grace bestowed on the vessels of mercy in the sense "He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45)



stringmusic said:


> How does Gods' will or choice play under this premise? How does it play under mans will or choice?
> 
> Does Gods' grace play any role in salvation? Of course it does. If God is giving a gift of salvation is it not mankinds choice to accept that gift?



No, Grace is the unmerited favor of God. Grace is free and unconditional. Anything earned, merited, or deserved by you is not grace. The man who thinks he deserves God’s salvation does not believe in grace.


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> If you are saying God's grace is available to all of mankind, I would disagree. His grace is bestowed on the elect (the object's of His love). That doesn't mean the vessels of wrath don't benefit from the grace bestowed on the vessels of mercy in the sense "He maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust." (Matthew 5:45)
> 
> 
> 
> No, Grace is the unmerited favor of God. Grace is free and unconditional. Anything earned, merited, or deserved by you is not grace. The man who thinks he deserves God’s salvation does not believe in grace.



"The Vessels of Wrath"

I like that!


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## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> If you are saying God's grace is available to all of mankind, I would disagree.


I just don't see Christianity as an exclusive faith. When you witness to someone, do you tell them " I am glad you have accepted Jesus, I just hope your one of the elect."




> No, *Grace is the unmerited favor of God*



Where did you get this definition? I understand it helps with your logic, but that is not the definition of grace.... at least not according to the dictionary. You only have to change the "of" to "from" for that definition to be correct.

grace
Definition
grace[ grayss ]NOUN 
graces  plural 

1. elegance: elegance, beauty, and smoothness of form or movement
2. politeness: dignified, polite, and decent behavior
"She fended off queries with her usual grace." 
3. generosity of spirit: a capacity to tolerate, accommodate, or forgive people
4. prayer at mealtimes: a short prayer of thanks to God said before, or sometimes after, a meal
5. finance 
Same as  grace period
6. pleasing quality: a pleasing and admirable quality or characteristic ( usually used in the plural ) 
7.* gift of God to humankind: in Christianity, the infinite love, mercy, favor, and goodwill shown to humankind by God*
8. freedom from sin: in Christianity, the condition of being free of sin, e.g. through repentance to God


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## gemcgrew

Let me ask you this. How big of a role did you play in your natural birth?


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## gemcgrew

stringmusic said:


> I just don't see Christianity as an exclusive faith.



The Christianity we see today and we hear preached today doesn't exclude anybody.



stringmusic said:


> When you witness to someone, do you tell them " I am glad you have accepted Jesus, I just hope your one of the elect."



Of coarse not. 




stringmusic said:


> Where did you get this definition? I understand it helps with your logic, but that is not the definition of grace.... at least not according to the dictionary. You only have to change the "of" to "from" for that definition to be correct.



"Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:5,6)

Man says that it is free BUT you have to accept it. I say it is one thing to receive it but it is another thing entirely to accept it. Your accepting it or not is works.


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## Big7

Where is that "dead horse" thingy when you need it?


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> The Christianity we see today and we hear preached today doesn't exclude anybody.
> Of coarse not.
> "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." (Romans 11:5,6)
> Man says that it is free BUT you have to accept it. I say it is one thing to receive it but it is another thing entirely to accept it. Your accepting it or not is works.



That is so misusing the term works.  Works is nothing more than good deeds.  Accepting God's love is absolutely not a work or deed.  


Titus 2:11–14 
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, 12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, 13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, 14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works


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## Ronnie T

And why would God take vengence on people who never had a chance to do otherwise?????????


2 Thessalonians 1:7–10 

7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


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## Ronnie T

Big7 said:


> Where is that "dead horse" thingy when you need it?



I'm looking for it.
...
...
I can't find one.


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## ambush80

Big7 said:


> Where is that "dead horse" thingy when you need it?





Ronnie T said:


> I'm looking for it.
> ...
> ...
> I can't find one.



This seems like a pretty important issue to me.  If I was going to be a Christian, I would spend alot of time trying to understand this issue; a whole lifetime if need be.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> And why would God take vengence on people who never had a chance to do otherwise?????????



If they ever had a chance, they lost in the garden. We were all there in the first Adam. We shook our fist in the face of Almighty God and said "we'll have it our way." That is the way I see it but I can't prove it.

Thank God for the second Adam. He came to save some, all that the Father gave Him. He paid the price and satisfied the Father. Thank God for that. God makes a sinner and God saves a sinner. 

It is hard to find a sinner today, in this country at least. Everybody is comfortable in their church buildings and content right where they are in their rebellion. Most trusting in something they did, like in making a decision, walking down an aisle, saying a prayer or accepting.

If any of you are one of His children, He will get you if He hasn't already. He knows where you are. It will be at a time and place of His choosing and not yours. He will turn you inside out and show you the inward and you will have no choice but to look at it. You will not want to put your stinking, filthy hand in the midst of what takes place. A new creature will emerge from where no life existed before.

I will stop "beating a dead horse" here as someone suggested. But before I leave, someone sent me a message asking why I bash the Baptist. I don't and didn't mean for it to seam so. I am Baptist. The Arminian Baptist don't like me, the Reformed Baptist don't like me and the Calvinist Baptist don't think much of me either. 

Glenn


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Let me ask you this. How big of a role did you play in your natural birth?



How big of a role did you play in your baptism? Were you willing to be baptized, or were you forced by the long arm of God?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> This seems like a pretty important issue to me.  If I was going to be a Christian, I would spend alot of time trying to understand this issue; a whole lifetime if need be.



I agree.

Not to disagree that we've lead that horse to drink a hundred times in this thread.

But if I had ask a person how to get saved, and they were truthful with me, and told me it was a 50-50 chance. I might take my chances and run away.

To believe that some are chosen and some are not but be deceptive about it when witnessing, is not a good idea.

Sorry I just couldn't leave.....especially ambush, maybe a few others who are not posting.

I'm not trying to be right, I am truly convicted that this could effect the salvation of some. When we are called to preach the gospel, I think we should preach exactly as the bible teaches....accepting/responding/saying yes Lord yes/ is all the same thing....and that includes everybody. And some of you can use the bible to say that in all of pauls letters he is saying that only some will be saved....his letters are to the saved...and those people are trying to get others saved, they aren't just laying around a campground waiting for something to happen, they are preaching the gospel to the gentiles, WHO ARE NOT the chosen of God. He didn't choose us, He chose the Jews, but we can be grafted in, but we have to want to/accept/respond/believe whatever verb you wanna use.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> And why would God take vengence on people who never had a chance to do otherwise?????????



He wouldn't.


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## mtnwoman

Quote:
Originally Posted by stringmusic  
When you witness to someone, do you tell them " I am glad you have accepted Jesus, I just hope your one of the elect."


gemc>>Of coarse not. <<

What would you tell them then? That's what you believe why wouldn't you tell them the truth...or your truth?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I'm looking for it.
> ...
> ...
> I can't find one.



Here dahlin' just beat me....
Obviously I do have a little fruit of longsuffering.....and a dash of patience....but a lot of conviction.


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> Whose faith?  Salvation is a gift, or to simplify, a reward for faith, right?*It's an out and out gift.  We can take it or leave it. It's by faith that we accept the gift, and I guess you could consider it a reward in the longrun.
> 
> I guess my point is that there are two ways of looking at this stuff.
> 
> On one hand, God does not love everybody, and only chooses a few, and sends everybody else to he11.  On the other hand, God loves everybody, offers salvation to all, and gives it to those who take it.
> 
> From where I sit, and as I read the gospels, postition 2 seems more consitent with the nature of Jesus.I agree, that's the purpose of Jesus death, He was our scapegoat for our sins.
> 
> But, that scripture does not point out where free-will is a gift of salvation.If we didn't have free will we would not be able to sin, because it's not in God's will for us to sin*


*

MtnWoman*


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If they ever had a chance, they lost in the garden. We were all there in the first Adam. We shook our fist in the face of Almighty God and said "we'll have it our way." That is the way I see it but I can't prove it.
> 
> Thank God for the second Adam. He came to save some, all that the Father gave Him. He paid the price and satisfied the Father. Thank God for that. God makes a sinner and God saves a sinner.
> 
> It is hard to find a sinner today, in this country at least. Everybody is comfortable in their church buildings and content right where they are in their rebellion. Most trusting in something they did, like in making a decision, walking down an aisle, saying a prayer or accepting.
> 
> If any of you are one of His children, He will get you if He hasn't already. He knows where you are. It will be at a time and place of His choosing and not yours. He will turn you inside out and show you the inward and you will have no choice but to look at it. You will not want to put your stinking, filthy hand in the midst of what takes place. A new creature will emerge from where no life existed before.
> 
> I will stop "beating a dead horse" here as someone suggested. But before I leave, someone sent me a message asking why I bash the Baptist. I don't and didn't mean for it to seam so. I am Baptist. The Arminian Baptist don't like me, the Reformed Baptist don't like me and the Calvinist Baptist don't think much of me either.
> 
> Glenn



All that, and you didn't answer the question you attached your comments to.

"And why would God take vengence on people who never had a chance to do otherwise?????????"

*What Adam did in the garden affected every person whose ever lived since him.  The saved and the unsaved.  Every person needs Jesus as their savior.  Ephesians 1 makes it clear that Jesus Christ came for the Jew first, then to the Gentile (because of their belief).


----------



## Ronnie T

ambush80 said:


> This seems like a pretty important issue to me.  If I was going to be a Christian, I would spend alot of time trying to understand this issue; a whole lifetime if need be.



You wouldn't need to spend your whole lifetime searching for the answer.
All you'd need to do is read the book of Matthew, then start reading the book of Acts.

With the knowledge you'll get from Matthew, it won't take long in Acts for you to see that the Gospel was taught and made available to everyone possible.  And anyone who believed it was saved.
Same goes today.


----------



## Huntinfool

> God makes a sinner and God saves a sinner.



...as in "God creates us sinners and God saves us"?  Do you have a solid biblical justification that God creates us as sinners?



> If any of you are one of His children, He will get you if He hasn't already. He knows where you are. It will be at a time and place of His choosing and not yours. He will turn you inside out and show you the inward and you will have no choice but to look at it. You will not want to put your stinking, filthy hand in the midst of what takes place. A new creature will emerge from where no life existed before.



Folks, I don't know any way to say this better.  I don't know that I agree with our friend on everything he's said regarding how the salvation process works.  But I can tell you with 100% certainty and without any doubt whatsoever that what he posted right here is absolutely true in my case.  

I did not go looking for God.  He, quite literally, came after me.  He came looking for me and it was not pleasant.  He was angry with me and, as I describe it to others....he had had enough.  He turned me over to myself for a period of time (think Romans Ch1).  But when he'd had enough he quite literally threw me on the ground and I can promise you he put his finger in my face and said to me "You will NOT mess up the plans I have for you!"...and that was that.

I was not looking for God, but he most assuredly was looking for me in that period and he found me with a vengeance.  It was the most painful thing he's ever done to me and the most loving all at the same time.

No life existed before.  My only difference with him, in this case, is that I'm fairly certain that I had a choice at some point in that period.  I could have continued to run or I could have broken.  But God very clearly drew a line in the sand on one particular evening.  There was no mistaking what was happening.  

Whether I realy had a "choice" in the matter, I don't know.  But there were options.  Obviously I broke that night because the enormity of what was happening hit me like a ton of bricks.  But I could have run...I feel very strongly about that.

...and yes...I understand that I've not laid any scripture in front of you on this particular post.  I'm just relaying how my experience validates the quote above.


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> ...as in "God creates us sinners and God saves us"?  Do you have a solid biblical justification that God creates us as sinners?
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, I don't know any way to say this better.  I don't know that I agree with our friend on everything he's said regarding how the salvation process works.  But I can tell you with 100% certainty and without any doubt whatsoever that what he posted right here is absolutely true in my case.
> 
> I did not go looking for God.  He, quite literally, came after me.  He came looking for me and it was not pleasant.  He was angry with me and, as I describe it to others....he had had enough.  He turned me over to myself for a period of time (think Romans Ch1).  But when he'd had enough he quite literally threw me on the ground and I can promise you he put his finger in my face and said to me "You will NOT mess up the plans I have for you!"...and that was that.
> 
> I was not looking for God, but he most assuredly was looking for me in that period and he found me with a vengeance.  It was the most painful thing he's ever done to me and the most loving all at the same time.
> 
> No life existed before.  My only difference with him, in this case, is that I'm fairly certain that I had a choice at some point in that period.  I could have continued to run or I could have broken.  But God very clearly drew a line in the sand on one particular evening.  There was no mistaking what was happening.
> 
> Whether I realy had a "choice" in the matter, I don't know.  But there were options.  Obviously I broke that night because the enormity of what was happening hit me like a ton of bricks.  But I could have run...I feel very strongly about that.
> 
> ...and yes...I understand that I've not laid any scripture in front of you on this particular post.  I'm just relaying how my experience validates the quote above.



I'm familiar with that testimony. He brought me to my knees...and I could not resist.

Let me ask you this, before this happened, and you were younger were you ever "saved"?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> You wouldn't need to spend your whole lifetime searching for the answer.
> All you'd need to do is read the book of Matthew, then start reading the book of Acts.
> 
> With the knowledge you'll get from Matthew, it won't take long in Acts for you to see that the Gospel was taught and made available to everyone possible.  And anyone who believed it was saved.
> Same goes today.



Salvation is a much lighter yoke than we think it's gonna be. I just didn't wanna have to thru all that trying to be perfect, and understanding the bible, and going to church as a chore.
And it was nothing like that, when I stepped into the light.


----------



## Big7

ambush80 said:


> This seems like a pretty important issue to me.  If I was going to be a Christian, I would spend alot of time trying to understand this issue; a whole lifetime if need be.



OK Ambush.

Unless you have a mental issue, God gave you a good mind and free will.

There are plenty folks on here that would be MORE than glad to
help you if you wish to know the life of God in the OT and the coming of Jesus Christ (The New Covenant) and how it REALLY works through faith, understanding the Bible
and following a spiritual goal. 

Ain't got that? You got nothing except your time on earth.

You gotta' "do right" too..

Faith without works is dead..

Read THIS:
http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm


----------



## mtnwoman

Big7 said:


> OK Ambush.
> 
> Unless you have a mental issue, God gave you a good mind and free will.
> 
> There are plenty folks on here that would be MORE than glad to
> help you if you wish to know the life of God in the OT and the coming of Jesus Christ (The New Covenant) and how it REALLY works through faith, understanding the Bible
> and following a spiritual goal.
> 
> Ain't got that? You got nothing except your time on earth.
> 
> You gotta' "do right" too..
> 
> Faith without works is dead..



Amen!


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> You referred to (2 Peter 3:9). Go back to the beginning of the chapter and determine who is being written to, the "beloved". I say it is obvious that he is writing to believers.
> 
> Knowing he is writing to believers, how does this verse now read? "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward (the believers?), not willing that any(believers?) should perish, but that all (believers?)should come to repentance.



I'm sorry... but if you're willing to twist the Scriptures that much, I need to drop out of the discussion.  We're on the same page understanding that context means a lot in a passage, but when you start trying to limit the word "all" in this passage?  That's close to being at the top of the list of all that I've seen.


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## Bama4me

stringmusic said:


> Gemcgrew, I would like to see your thoughts on post #502



SM... I've learned that questions that can't be answered get ignored.  I asked in post 491 why Joshua 24:15 and Philippians 2:12 clearly indicates free will of man is at work and nothing but SILENCE throughout the day.  You add to that a horrible twisting of 2 Peter 3:9 and there's little doubt that continued discussion of the matter will yield little profit.


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> 2 Peter 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.



That's the result of free will.


----------



## JB0704

mtnwoman said:


> That's the result of free will.



I agree.  I appreciate GEMCGREW's conviction, and his willingness to stand on his beliefs.  I have been in his shoes, where I was debating the rest of y'all, so I know it ain't easy.

That being said, I also think, sometimes, there are multiple ways of looking at things.  I gave the example of 2 Peter 2:16 KJV.  If you read that verse in the KJV, and have no cultural perspective, it has a completely different meaning than what is intended.  Two words are used which mean something completely different when put together today.  This is why I think the concept, and discussion, of election and predestination are confusing.  The letters were written to fellow believers who had a completely different culture and way of communicating than we did.  We constantly say John struggled when writing Revelation to describe what he saw, but everything else must be taken, literally, word-for-word?

For those reasons, I cannot overlook the grace of the gospels when considering the letters.  It strikes me as if the gospels are the primary context of all that follows.  Without the gospels, you have no NT.  So, if my interpretation does not line up with what was demonstrated by Jesus, then I might need to step back and look at it from a different angle.  From what I can tell, Jesus loved everybody.  If not for the gospels, I would not believe.

I am no Bible scholar, but that is just my thoughts.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Let me ask you this, before this happened, and you were younger were you ever "saved"?



Several times...

I had "salvation experiences"....but after lots of introspection and overcoming an unwillingness to admit it...I was not saved.

Lots of years of being a REALLY good faker.


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Several times...
> 
> I had "salvation experiences"....but after lots of introspection and overcoming an unwillingness to admit it...I was not saved.
> 
> Lots of years of being a REALLY good faker.



The reason I ask is this.....

I was saved at 12 and I remember how I felt. I fell away for about 30 some years, and thought I probably hadn't been saved after all.
I was overcome/tackled by the HS and was brought back to the fold.
I was like the one that Christ was coming to get, as He left the 99 to go get the one and yes He knew where I was. He didn't even have to break my leg, I went back willingly.
After that I realized that because I had accepted/repented/bapized or 'whatever', that nothing had really snatched me out of the palm of His hand. He always knew where I was all those years, because really I had been saved because I still always believed what I believed at age 12. Nothing much a 12yo could understand except for surrendering, didn't understand scripture, maybe John 3:16 which I did believe.

But for all those years, I was lost in sin. Didn't go to church, probably never prayed unless I needed something. But yet I still believed who Jesus was, I never doubted the gospel, I just didn't live by it in any means.

In hind sight, like I said, I realized that I became His at 12 and when I had gone about as low as I could go, He came and got me and took me home, and it exactly what it musta felt like being a prodigal son. I always knew who my Father was but I was living in darkness, and it made me wonder thru some of those years how could I ever get back. I couldn't even do that myself. He lifted me up outta the hole and brought me back to the fold and that was that and I'm still here. And at the moment it happened I still didn't know what was happening, really. But after that day, I didn't party any more, nor cuss any more....and yes I was stumbling around trying to figure out what to do. I ended up, by a witness, going to a downtown store front black church for a year. Me and my daughter and granddaughter. We went to church maybe 5 times a week. It was a precurser to a learning experience of the bible, when we moved to the North Asheville Bapt. Church that about 15 yrs ago. Going to the black church was a lot of basic learning and a lot of praising God. The church I was saved in and raised in was one of those churches you could hear a pin drop during the entire service, mostly because everyone was literally asleep. I needed a praise and worship church, I didn't even know how to do that, nor how to even pray. You don't know much or learn much at 12 mostly because of lack of discipleship from others. But yet I was still saved, just ignorant.

Unless you really remember being a faker, perhaps you'd always been saved but ran away and God snatched you back. I'm not saying that's what happened, but that's what happened to me. Since then I've realized a lot of stuff about my being lost and why this or that, did or didn't happen. I could've easily gotten any drug I wanted, being a  girl and a musicians wife. But something held me back, I credited a lot to 'my spiritual guide'.....when really that's what it turned out to be....but it was the Holy Spirit. There's a lot more to it, dreams about something after me all the time, even when I was old enough not to be scared of the dark...turns out something was after me...the HS. Once I willingly went back, or pulled back, or carried back or however you wanna look at it, the scary (fear not)dreams stopped. I could go into the dreams but it would make this longer than it already is.....but today it is easy to look back and see what was going on in the spirit all those years.  Since then my eyes have been wide open to learn anything I can...I yearn for that knowledge. And I've ask God many times, why He let me fall away, why didn't He just keep me a saved little girl....and the only answer I get is that's what I had chosen to do, but He turned it out for the good. Because I stay on fire, making up for all those years, I was dead (in my mind) as a rock. And I wouldn't go near a church for fear that I want Jesus again, so I hid.

Sorry so long.

uh oh...edited to add.....and yes He tore me up, cored all that evilness and dirtiness out of me and change my life as I knew it. He repaired me, and fixed me, but I'm still damaged goods, just like a USPS package, damaged but delivered!!! Hallelujah to the lamb of God.


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> I agree.  I appreciate GEMCGREW's conviction, and his willingness to stand on his beliefs.  I have been in his shoes, where I was debating the rest of y'all, so I know it ain't easy.
> 
> That being said, I also think, sometimes, there are multiple ways of looking at things.  I gave the example of 2 Peter 2:16 KJV.  If you read that verse in the KJV, and have no cultural perspective, it has a completely different meaning than what is intended.  Two words are used which mean something completely different when put together today.  This is why I think the concept, and discussion, of election and predestination are confusing.  The letters were written to fellow believers who had a completely different culture and way of communicating than we did.  We constantly say John struggled when writing Revelation to describe what he saw, but everything else must be taken, literally, word-for-word?
> 
> For those reasons, I cannot overlook the grace of the gospels when considering the letters.  It strikes me as if the gospels are the primary context of all that follows.  Without the gospels, you have no NT.  So, if my interpretation does not line up with what was demonstrated by Jesus, then I might need to step back and look at it from a different angle.  From what I can tell, Jesus loved everybody.  If not for the gospels, I would not believe.
> 
> I am no Bible scholar, but that is just my thoughts.



I agree completely. Because of the teaching in the OT, that the Jews were God's chosen people. And He was their God and no one else's. They were the chosen and that was that...according to all the Jews in those times.
Then came the new covenant the NT and God said ok, I'm making this available for everyone not just the Jews. So that's why I say I'm a NT believer....not because I don't believe the OT, but when God said not only my chosen can be saved, but it's open to anyone. God said to Peter not to call the gentiles unclean, because they too need the gospel...all of the Jews, all of the gentiles, not only part.

If the Jews didn't have free will even in the OT, why didn't God just make them get thru the 12 miles hike to the promised land? He coulda just poofed them over there, but their mindset, (that God could've controlled but didn't), that they had been better off in bondage, like I used to think about myself, course I didn't realize i was in bondage. But I was better off, being in a familiar place rather than being in church or with God.

Acts 10:13-15 (King James Version)

Show resources
Acts 10:13-15
King James Version (KJV)
 13And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.

 14But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.

 15And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

And that's why I believe that everyone is called, not only the special people as Peter thought he was. He didn't want to preach to the gentiles, dirty dogs, but His grace should be extended to all, and that's what makes God not a respecter of persons.


----------



## mtnwoman

Bama4me said:


> SM... I've learned that questions that can't be answered get ignored.  I asked in post 491 why Joshua 24:15 and Philippians 2:12 clearly indicates free will of man is at work and nothing but SILENCE throughout the day.  You add to that a horrible twisting of 2 Peter 3:9 and there's little doubt that continued discussion of the matter will yield little profit.



That's why I'm still here. I can't get a straight answer from anyone....not even my own brother. He just twists and squirms and sends me a link or a scripture that isn't saying what he says it says when you pull it out of context. So I'm beginning to believe there is no answer to be given. But he won't give me a yes or no answer even. If I do he sends me something to explain it rather then just tell me yes or no...how could you possibly preach the gospel to others if you can't even explain what you believe? We have to email each other, we can't talk about it on the phone, he gets too frustrated......and he's scared of me.....hahahahahahaha. No we just don't want to get into a knock down drag out because he won't answer my questions or me puttin' a choke hold on him until he does....lol.

My son in law scrambles for answers that he doesn't have. Like the other month when he first got started in this, he said....'you know Calvinism, as in Calvary Baptist Church'....my daughter and I said huh?

But I'm mostly here for the lurkers the ones that never post. Compare the posts in the thread to the lookers, of course I'm sure everytime we log in it counts...I'm just saying. I don't want any one to believe that it might be possible that God might not have chosen them to be saved.

I at one time thought I was lost for good, but then once I grasped, 'NOTHING will snatch you out of the palm of my hand', I realized God always knew where His lost lamb was...He never forsakes us, never....oh Hallelujah to the Lamb of God!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Huntinfool

> Unless you really remember being a faker, perhaps you'd always been saved but ran away and God snatched you back.



Perhaps.  But I do know that I made no movement forward in my walk, exhibited no real fruit and had not died to sin or self in any way.  Life was all about me.

Was I saved way back in 2nd grade...and then again at a 2nd Ch of Acts concert at my church when I was a teenager?  Possibly at either of those times.  But I was not living the life of one who was saved.  That's why I struggle so much with the question "can you walk away"?  If I was saved, then the answer very much is yes...absolutely you can.  If I was faking....then I was never saved in the first place.

It doesn't matter to me.  What I do know is that I did not die to myself and did not follow Christ until after the time I talked about earlier.


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> OK Ambush.
> 
> Unless you have a mental issue, God gave you a good mind and free will.
> 
> There are plenty folks on here that would be MORE than glad to
> help you if you wish to know the life of God in the OT and the coming of Jesus Christ (The New Covenant) and how it REALLY works through faith, understanding the Bible
> and following a spiritual goal.
> 
> Ain't got that? You got nothing except your time on earth.
> 
> You gotta' "do right" too..
> 
> Faith without works is dead..
> 
> Read THIS:
> http://www.catholicapologetics.org/ap020800.htm



I perceive you to be one who does not have a clue in what they believe. Could it be that you are so confused that you insist on sending folks somewhere via a link, so that somebody else that is just as confused as you, can explain it.

There is real danger in that. There are people out there that will have you eating your own poop and drinking your own urine based on a verse in Isaiah.

Want the link?


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Perhaps.  But I do know that I made no movement forward in my walk, exhibited no real fruit and had not died to sin or self in any way.  Life was all about me.*if you believed that Christ was who He said He was you were saved.*
> 
> Was I saved way back in 2nd grade...and then again at a 2nd Ch of Acts concert at my church when I was a teenager?  Possibly at either of those times.  But I was not living the life of one who was saved.*Who does at that age? You didn't know then what you know now. *  That's why I struggle so much with the question "can you walk away"? *Did you ever deny Christ was who He said He was? or did you just hide from Him in sin, like Adam did?*  If I was saved, then the answer very much is yes...absolutely you can. *Yes you can walk away from the church, because we have free will, but again did you still believe in your heart that Christ was who He said He was even though you weren't living within in His will for us?* If I was faking....then I was never saved in the first place.*At those ages about all we can do is believe that Christ is who He said He is...we are babes and hadn't even gotten to eat of the meat of the word.*
> 
> It doesn't matter to me.  What I do know is that I did not die to myself and did not follow Christ until after the time I talked about earlier.


 Me, either. But I didn't disbelieve or deny Him to anyone. I just led a sinful life, and that's why we need the verse that the good Shepard will leave the 90 and 9 and come find the lost sheep...the sheep belonged to Him, and He never left the sheep, the sheep left. But after the sheep realized, just like the prodigal son, that it was lost and could do nothing on it's own, then God......

I'm not saying all that happened to you, too. I'm just saying as I looked back over all those years, I had really been saved. Even though I thought I had fallen from salvation. Simply, no meat, just believed as a child would believe. I remember how I felt when I got saved and when I got baptized I remember believing with all my heart about the gospel of Jesus....even though I went astray, Christ never forgot me, He knew where His lost lamb was.

Somewhere in the bible or in some history book, the shepherds would have wandering lambs....they would break the lambs leg so it couldn't leave again. Just like that's why they didn't have to break Jesus' legs on the cross is because He submitted to the inevitable.

When God was ready for me to come back, He snatched me back and I have a great witness and testimony. I was mad at God for a long time because I believe that He let me get tangled up with the wrong crowd at a young age....I couldn't understand why God would let a child be hurt and harmed so much. But after some teaching, I realized it was for a testimony....for His glory...for His promises, of He'll never really leave us.

Thank you God for not forgetting your lost lamb, and thank you for giving us your son Jesus for the washing away of our sins.

And knowing all that, the verse of never being snatched out of His hand even 30 yrs, is a precious verse for me and that's why I believe once saved always saved. And that's why I believe in free will. But God is faithful to His promise even though we are not.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I perceive you as one who does not have clue in what they believe. Could it be that you are so confused that you insist on sending folks somewhere via a link, so that somebody else that is just as confused as you, can explain it.
> 
> There is real danger in that. There are people out there that will have you eating your own poop and drinking your own urine based on a verse in Isaiah.
> 
> Want the link?



No worse than telling ambush he may or not be chosen. 

Besides Big7 isn't confused nor confusing.


----------



## Big7

gemcgrew said:


> I perceive you as one who does not have clue in what they believe. Could it be that you are so confused that you insist on sending folks somewhere via a link, so that somebody else that is just as confused as you, can explain it.
> 
> There is real danger in that. There are people out there that will have you eating your own poop and drinking your own urine based on a verse in Isaiah.
> 
> Want the link?



Just dealing in the facts:

You think what you want.

I know the truth. The Bible was not intended for me or you or ANYONE ELSE to interpret on his own.

Especially Calvin.

Lookie here. Calvin "invented" Calvinism. bout
WAYYY back in 1555. 460 years ago.. a flash
compared to the church Jesus HIMSELF founded in 33AD.

Go LOOK HERE: 
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/history.html 

Christ had everything _JUST_ like He wanted it.
Then the so-called reformation?
You must be kidding huh?

The Christian is called to adhere to Christ and His teaching integrally; the unity of faith is the dominant motif of divine revelation on which St. Paul insists energetically, when he writes:

 1 Cor. 1:10. I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, _that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you:_ but that you be perfect in mind and in the same judgement. 

It says divisions instead of schisms in the KJV so it don't
"sound" so bad. A schism is a schism, none the less. 

Have fun with that!


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> I know the truth. The Bible was not intended for me or you or ANYONE ELSE to interpret on his own.



Who are you relegating that responsibility to? Do not misunderstand me. I have No tolerance for the freewill, works religion of the Baptist or the Catholic. Salvation is not a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is Christ.


----------



## Big7

I'm not going back and reading all 564 posts.

You prolly been asked already but humor me.

Who made you one of "the elect"? Why you and not some of the rest of us?

What if (which will never happen) I decided to convert to Calvinism.. Would that make me "elect"? If not why?

I know I'm gonna need a lot of 

But give it a shot. Please?


----------



## Big7

gemcgrew said:


> Who are you relegating that responsibility to? Do not misunderstand me. I have No tolerance for the freewill, works religion of the Baptist or the Catholic. Salvation is not a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is Christ.



The Deposit of Faith of the Catholic Church consists of Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium in conjunction with our holy Father the Pope. You can equate it to a three legged stool, with each leg having its own specific function. This three legged stool is also firmly implanted on the solid rock of the Catholic Church. See Matt 16:18, John 1:42, Eph 2:20, 1Pet 2:4-8

That's who.

More HERE: 
http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/legacy.htm


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Who are you relegating that responsibility to? Do not misunderstand me. I have No tolerance for the freewill, works religion of the Baptist or the Catholic. Salvation is not a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is Christ.



You do realize that everything Jesus and His apostles taught is doctrine??????
The cross and the empty tomb are doctrine.
The shedding of blood as atonement is doctrine.
God's grace and mercy is doctrine.
New birth in Christ is doctrine.

Individual election is not doctrine.  If it was, please expose that biblical doctrine to me............

I also note that you "have no tolerance" for free will.
You're beginning to sound arrogant to me.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> You do realize that everything Jesus and His apostles taught is doctrine??????
> The cross and the empty tomb are doctrine.
> The shedding of blood as atonement is doctrine.
> God's grace and mercy is doctrine.
> New birth in Christ is doctrine.
> 
> Individual election is not doctrine.  If it was, please expose that biblical doctrine to me............
> 
> I also note that you "have no tolerance" for free will.
> You're beginning to sound arrogant to me.



Back to my son in law....he just told my daughter a few days ago, that salvation was much more special to him now that he knows that he's good enough for God to choose.

He keeps saying you'll know them by their fruit, yeah well we know you by the bush or a $1000 tree you just chopped down for no reason. My brother who says the same thing, and he has 9 children, I told him, God didn't mean fruit as in children...lol
Neither one of them were saved based on that doctrine. I wonder how many have been? and then adopt another doctrine? Obviously 2 that I know of.  I know for sure I'm saved and I was saved based on John 3:16, that's about all I could grasp at 12. That was a long time ago and I remember it as clear as day. I don't remember the exact process I went thru, I don't remember how I repented or how long it was before I was baptized, probably a week or two. But I remember when Jesus came into my heart. He had drawn me before but I was embarrassed to go in front of the church, that didn't last but a week or two and I even remember thinking during the week...this sunday Jesus, I'm going to admit that I love you...I remember it being heavy on me. And when I did it was like being set free. He didn't strong arm me either. Now on my rededication, I'm pretty sure, He said alright, Annie, that's it, that's enough, git on back to where you belong. And I was surprised and thankful when He did that. He overcame me and took me home.

I don't know if things woulda been different if I believed this...

'well God it's a 50/50 chance I might can go to heaven, and I do believe in Christ, but since I'm not sure I'm gonna be going to heaven, could you slip me a morsel of joy anyway while I worry about it? 

Lord help us!!


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> It doesn't matter to me.  What I do know is that I did not die to myself and did not follow Christ until after the time I talked about earlier.



Have you totally died to yourself yet?

When we are saved at that young of an age, there's not much more that we can understand but that Jesus loves me. He wants us to come to Him as children. He knows children don't know how to die to themselves....we didn't know anything except Jesus loves me.

Most of all I know or understand now is from hindsight in my selfish decisions and then how God's grace fit into that. I can't hardly even explain the depth that God's word came to me in hindsight...and how I know I now understand.

At one time I was angry when Abraham or maybe not mad but afraid, that God would ask me to sacrifice my child....so I ran farther away. I didn't grasp the part where the mercy and grace to Abraham come in, I was still drinking the milk. Living and working on childrens bible stories, not really understanding one at all. It took me 30 yrs to get that one and the David and Goliath one where God is the one that will give you the tools to overcome the giants in your life.

That is the importance of discipleship to continue to a new convert and many times it isn't. You're on your own.
That's why I come out here and witness and testify, to folks that even though I was the lowest of the low that Jesus still loved me and died for me just like He did everyone else.....yes even YOU can be saved...and I don't mean You personally.  I could never say, well God saved me, but you I don't know, but listen to the gospel you can decide for yourself if you have faith enough to believe it could happen. I'm pretty sure I would've never accepted that much of an iffy thing.


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> The Deposit of Faith of the Catholic Church consists of Holy Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium in conjunction with our holy Father the Pope. You can equate it to a three legged stool, with each leg having its own specific function. This three legged stool is also firmly implanted on the solid rock of the Catholic Church. See Matt 16:18, John 1:42, Eph 2:20, 1Pet 2:4-8
> 
> That's who.



I thank you for being honest.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> You do realize that everything Jesus and His apostles taught is doctrine??????



Of coarse. Do you realize that you can lie with the truth?



Ronnie T said:


> You're beginning to sound arrogant to me.



Arrogant or one who knows?


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> Folks, I don't know any way to say this better.  I don't know that I agree with our friend on everything he's said regarding how the salvation process works.  But I can tell you with 100% certainty and without any doubt whatsoever that what he posted right here is absolutely true in my case.
> 
> I did not go looking for God.  He, quite literally, came after me.  He came looking for me and it was not pleasant.  He was angry with me and, as I describe it to others....he had had enough.  He turned me over to myself for a period of time (think Romans Ch1).  But when he'd had enough he quite literally threw me on the ground and I can promise you he put his finger in my face and said to me "You will NOT mess up the plans I have for you!"...and that was that.
> 
> I was not looking for God, but he most assuredly was looking for me in that period and he found me with a vengeance.  It was the most painful thing he's ever done to me and the most loving all at the same time.
> 
> No life existed before.  My only difference with him, in this case, is that I'm fairly certain that I had a choice at some point in that period.  I could have continued to run or I could have broken.  But God very clearly drew a line in the sand on one particular evening.  There was no mistaking what was happening.
> 
> Whether I realy had a "choice" in the matter, I don't know.  But there were options.  Obviously I broke that night because the enormity of what was happening hit me like a ton of bricks.  But I could have run...I feel very strongly about that.
> 
> ...and yes...I understand that I've not laid any scripture in front of you on this particular post.  I'm just relaying how my experience validates the quote above.



I take you at your word and I say "hello brother, it is good to meet you. I knew you were in here, I just didn't know who you were." 

The religious people will try to convince you that you must have been saved at an earlier time, but you know better. I pray that the Lord will show you what that line in the sand was if he hasn't already.

Please don't take this the wrong way and I know that you won't. You may want to proclaim the Truth with more boldness so that your brothers and sisters know who you are. There appears to be few of us in this country and we get a little weary now and then.

Again, I say with profound joy and happiness, "It is so very nice to meet you."


----------



## Big7

gemcgrew said:


> I thank you for being honest.



Always.

Now are you going to be honest with me and answer #565 ?


----------



## mtnwoman




----------



## Huntinfool

> Please don't take this the wrong way and I know that you won't. You may want to proclaim the Truth with more boldness so that your brothers and sisters know who you are.



Ok you guys....you heard it.  I've been instructed to be MORE bold in here!!!

I laugh because, friend....NOBODY in here will accuse me of not being bold in my beliefs or my statements.  It's kind of one of those, "you had to be there" kind of jokes.

Trust me...nobody wants me to be more bold.  I'm trying to be more "meek" than I have been lately!


----------



## Big7

Huntinfool said:


> Ok you guys....you heard it.  I've been instructed to be MORE bold in here!!!
> 
> I laugh because, friend....NOBODY in here will accuse me of not being bold in my beliefs or my statements.  It's kind of one of those, "you had to be there" kind of jokes.
> 
> Trust me...nobody wants me to be more bold.  I'm trying to be more "meek" than I have been lately!



I heaaarrreeeeddd THAT.

Been a while since I really got on somebody on here.

Really been concentrating on work (You know in this economy you never know)

I see it's SSDD! (stuff, yall thought I was going to say the other word, I know)

Seems like we (not just me either) get a back-lash when we point something out especially in the SF threads.

Lot of "this is how (insert name here) see it and all the rest of you are wrong" type things..

I always try to link to a creditable source unless I say:

JMO, IMHO, My 2 or the big one, IMNSHO!


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Ok you guys....you heard it.  I've been instructed to be MORE bold in here!!!
> 
> I laugh because, friend....NOBODY in here will accuse me of not being bold in my beliefs or my statements.  It's kind of one of those, "you had to be there" kind of jokes.
> 
> Trust me...nobody wants me to be more bold.  I'm trying to be more "meek" than I have been lately!



We know dat's right!!


----------



## mtnwoman

1 Timothy 2:6
King James Version (KJV)
6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Isaiah 53:6
King James Version (KJV)
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


Hebrews 2:9
King James Version (KJV)
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


1 John 2:2
King James Version (KJV)
2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5:6
King James Version (KJV)

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

2 Peter 2
1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.



Galatians 2:20
King James Version (KJV)
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


----------



## Ronnie T

Great verses Annie.


----------



## mtnwoman

God is talking to the Jews, He is NOT talking to the gentiles.
The Jews are God's chosen, people....not gentiles. We the gentiles are saved by grace, we are NOT chosen. We can opt in or no reply.


Deuteronomy 7:6
For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

Deuteronomy 18:5
For the LORD thy God hath chosen him out of all thy tribes, to stand to minister in the name of the LORD, him and his sons for ever.

Joshua 24:22
And Joshua said unto the people, Ye are witnesses against yourselves that ye have chosen you the LORD, to serve him. And they said, We are witnesses.

1 Kings 11:13
Howbeit I will not rend away all the kingdom; but will give one tribe to thy son for David my servant's sake, and for Jerusalem's sake which I have chosen.

2 Chronicles 6:6
But I have chosen Jerusalem, that my name might be there; and have chosen David to be over my people Israel

Nehemiah 1:9
But if ye turn unto me, and keep my commandments, and do them; though there were of you cast out unto the uttermost part of the heaven, yet will I gather them from thence, and will bring them unto the place that I have chosen to set my name there.

Psalm 135:4
For the LORD hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.

Isaiah 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:20
The beast of the field shall honour me, the dragons and the owls: because I give waters in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert, to give drink to my people, my chosen.

Zechariah 3:2
And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?


----------



## mtnwoman

Obviously the Jews had free will, too. Because they did not choose Jesus...did they? They had a choice, a vote and they 'elected' to crucify Him. Why would anybody think we would be better than the Jews, who were God's chosen people and yet they didn't mind Him, they had their own free will? Didn't they?...but we don't? 

God in heaven help us!


----------



## gemcgrew

Big7 said:


> I'm not going back and reading all 564 posts.
> 
> You prolly been asked already but humor me.
> 
> Who made you one of "the elect"?


God 



Big7 said:


> Why you and not some of the rest of us?



Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?(Romans 9:20)



Big7 said:


> What if (which will never happen) I decided to convert to Calvinism..Would that make me "elect"?



No. 



Big7 said:


> If not why?


Salvation is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is in Christ.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> God
> 
> Who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?(Romans 9:20)
> 
> No.
> Salvation is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is in Christ.



Do you EVER use scripture to clarify things you believe and teach?
It would be nice if you would provide some.


----------



## Big7

Ronnie T said:


> Do you EVER use scripture to clarify things you believe and teach?
> It would be nice if you would provide some.



I hate to be the one to break it to you Ronnie,
But. Uh... No he don't.

He got something you and I don't. Calvinism.

No matter how good or bad we are or how good or bad he is, he and his ilk are "predestined".

Not matter what we do.. what lengths we go to to be Christ-like.. If we are not in the man made Calvinism deal
we gonna see he11.

Heck he even told me flat out even if I converted to Calvinism I STILL would not be one of the "elect".

Bet that don't do much for evangelism for the Calvinist
cause.

I'm gonna dismiss this crap, out of hand. Don't matter.

I suggest the rest of us do the same.


----------



## TimB

lol, I can hardly believe this thread is still ongoing. I finally figured out that gem is jerking everyone around and decided to opt out. He spouts the same platitudes and catch phrases over and over while refusing to directly and specifically address pertinent questions and ignoring every point made that disproves his pov. 

 Surely it's not surprising that one so emotionally and spiritually abused in his youth would turn to a belief system that takes all decisions out of his hands and guarantees him a spot in heaven. I feel for him, as I said I had a similar experience to his growing up. 

 But I have to stick with scripture which does not support his view. And I would not want to serve a God who did not give me a choice in the matter. 

 The bible says it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance (Rom. 2:4). If God just "elected" us to serve him and we had no choice why would he need to be good to us at all? We would just be puppet slaves. 

 And why would we need to be "led" to repentance if we were just automatically saved by election? I can find no place in scripture where repentance does not precede salvation. 

 So this subject is now closed for me, I was open to having my mind changed at the outset as it is always the truth that I seek. But he never brought a convincing argument and this thread has just turned into a continuous beating of a dead horse.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I try to stay out of threads that I know have verses that each side usues to combat the other. I also stay out of some because I know that many are not ready for what has not been revealed to them yet. This comes from the assumption that God will guide into all truth. So who am I to try to run ahead of the Holy Spirit. I ask this for my pondering over the responses with no intentions of responding myself. Why is it that we think it so unfair of God to choose? Those who had no choice of where they were born, what family beliefs were taught, circumstances of life, Do they have a choice to believe in the gospel. How about those mentally challenged, deaf or the event that they died young. I say this because I still ponder this and viewing responses makes me think it through


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> I try to stay out of threads that I know have verses that each side usues to combat the other. I also stay out of some because I know that many are not ready for what has not been revealed to them yet. This comes from the assumption that God will guide into all truth. So who am I to try to run ahead of the Holy Spirit. I ask this for my pondering over the responses with no intentions of responding myself. Why is it that we think it so unfair of God to choose? Those who had no choice of where they were born, what family beliefs were taught, circumstances of life, Do they have a choice to believe in the gospel. How about those mentally challenged, deaf or the event that they died young. I say this because I still ponder this and viewing responses makes me think it through


 In other words, those who decided to believe, What if you had been born Muslim?


----------



## ambush80

1gr8bldr said:


> I try to stay out of threads that I know have verses that each side usues to combat the other. I also stay out of some because I know that many are not ready for what has not been revealed to them yet. This comes from the assumption that God will guide into all truth. So who am I to try to run ahead of the Holy Spirit. I ask this for my pondering over the responses with no intentions of responding myself. Why is it that we think it so unfair of God to choose? Those who had no choice of where they were born, what family beliefs were taught, circumstances of life, Do they have a choice to believe in the gospel. How about those mentally challenged, deaf or the event that they died young. I say this because I still ponder this and viewing responses makes me think it through



Exactly.  It's called special pleading.  

I get reprimanded all the time when I point out how unjust God is.  I am told " Who are you to judge God and his methods?  His justice is perfect.  He is the potter and you are the clay and you have no right to question what He does with you."  But for some reason, when it comes to this election thing, all of a sudden people claim to know what God would or wouldn't do.  They say that there is no way He would do something so unjust as to predestine people.  Sounds like a bunch of pots insisting that they know how the potter works, and I say this as an objective observer.

As far as I can tell, Calvin read the words, didn't try to put his own spin on it and nailed it.  That's what the Book says.  As I said before, if you don't like what it says find another book.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> The religious people will try to convince you that you must have been saved at an earlier time, but you know better.



What does the verse about leaving the 90 and 9 to go get the lost lamb mean then? That lamb was once a part of the fold and the shepard knows the lamb has lost it's way. So the Good Shepard goes to get the lost lamb leaving the ninety and nine. Was Jesus just a religious people? Do you honestly think that people don't get saved and then fall by the wayside?

I was saved at 12. A 12 year old only has sense enough to believe John 3:16. You run far away but yet you still believe Jesus is who He says He is but you don't live the "Christian life", one day God will overcome/tackle/bring you to your knees/ because nothing ever snatched you out of His hands. Not drugs, not alcohol, not porn, NOTHING, He surprises you because you were always His, that is if you believe what He has told you that nothing will snatch you out of the palm of His hand...which includes not living a Christian life. Once saved, always saved. Why would once saved always saved matter if we didn't do something that we thought might take that salvation away, and not living a Christian life for all 'those' years is a good reason to think you were never saved....then He overtakes you, because you've always been His by your belief in the first place.

Matthew 18:12-13 (King James Version)


King James Version (KJV)
 12How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.


----------



## mtnwoman

I can completely understand the beating of a dead horse.

But we have at least one here who isn't saved and is falling into the trap of that he might not be predestined to be saved. There are a lot of lurkers, according to the amount of posters compared to the amount of readers. We don't know which ones of those people are not saved, as we all agree on that, that might need enough info to make a choice.

I'm not posting to win an argument against a certain person, or people, I'm here to show that everyone has the choice to be saved or not. I would hate for anyone to think that they are so bad, and have sinned so much that they could never be good enough for God to choose them....and that we all have equal opportunity to repent and become part of the elect.

It's heavy on my heart, and as long as it is....I can't do a whole lot about it. Can I see it going in circles? of course I can. But I'm  not tired enough to wax faint yet. I pray everyday for God to give me the wisdom to know when the battle is over.....and I ain't got the 'bring the troops home' word from God yet. And that's just me.


----------



## TimB

ambush80 said:


> As far as I can tell, Calvin read the words, didn't try to put his own spin on it and nailed it.  That's what the Book says.  As I said before, if you don't like what it says find another book.




That may be because you are taking at face value words that are being taken out of context by some with a one sided agenda. 

 The whole Calvinist teaching hinges on the "T" in "TULIP" ie Total inability/depravity, the idea that man has sunk so far through the Fall that he is no longer capable of believing the gospel. He can no more repent and believe than a dead man can rise up and walk. This is all the result of the sin of Adam, who communicated this absolute inability, this loss of free will, to all his posterity.

Problem is that God in Acts 17:30 commands "All men evrywhere to repent. Kinda makes God look a little stupid to be commanding men who can't repent to repent. 

 And as I've stated on several occasions I have yet to find an instance in the bible where repentance does not precede salvation which all by itself disputes the total idea of "Total Inability/depravity of man". 

 It is obvious that man can indeed repent of his sins, it happens over and over in the bible so to accept Calvinist doctrine you have to totally ignore plain bible scripture.


----------



## Bama4me

ambush80 said:


> As far as I can tell, Calvin read the words, didn't try to put his own spin on it and nailed it.  That's what the Book says.  As I said before, if you don't like what it says find another book.



And again, I say that you need to read your "own book" before telling others to find another.  You sir are putting your own "spin" to what God says.  As I have said a bit earlier in this thread, when you can offer concrete proof from God's word (considering the entire case), I will be more than happy to concede.  I can explain a way the idea of "predestination" agrees with other passages which do not support your teachings... but neither you nor Gem have offered anything outside of twisting of Scripture... to the point "all" doesn't mean "all."


----------



## Bama4me

TimB said:


> Problem is that God in Acts 17:30 commands "All men evrywhere to repent. Kinda makes God look a little stupid to be commanding men who can't repent to repent.



What you're missing is the fact that when Paul preached to those people on Mars Hill, he was speaking to part of the elect... had he been talking to the non-elect, we'd be reading something completely different.  Has to be the answer to passages containing "all", "everyone", or "anyone."


----------



## TimB

mtnwoman said:


> I'm not posting to win an argument against a certain person, or people, I'm here to show that everyone has the choice to be saved or not. I would hate for anyone to think that they are so bad, and have sinned so much that they could never be good enough for God to choose them....and that we all have equal opportunity to repent and become part of the elect.
> 
> It's heavy on my heart, and as long as it is....I can't do a whole lot about it. Can I see it going in circles? of course I can. But I'm  not tired enough to wax faint yet. I pray everyday for God to give me the wisdom to know when the battle is over.....and I ain't got the 'bring the troops home' word from God yet. And that's just me.



Annie I completely understand and I was not criticizing anyone else for posting. And you're right we must do what we can to keep others from being misled by a false doctrine so I will continue to chime in where I feel I can contribute something positive.

 I'm just done trying to reason with the one who is totally unreasonable and unwilling to have a meaningful dialogue. If his position were so solid as he makes out then he would have no problem answering direct questions and he's shown that all he has is repetitive talking points.


----------



## TimB

Bama4me said:


> What you're missing is the fact that when Paul preached to those people on Mars Hill, he was speaking to part of the elect... had he been talking to the non-elect, we'd be reading something completely different.  Has to be the answer to passages containing "all", "everyone", or "anyone."



Stupid me, how did I _ever_ miss that!


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> Annie I completely understand and I was not criticizing anyone else for posting. And you're right we must do what we can to keep others from being misled by a false doctrine so I will continue to chime in where I feel I can contribute something positive.
> 
> I'm just done trying to reason with the one who is totally unreasonable and unwilling to have a meaningful dialogue. If his position were so solid as he makes out then he would have no problem answering direct questions and he's shown that all he has is repetitive talking points.




I know that no one is critisizing me, nor I of anyone who feels they are done with this. I completely see both sides.

I became convicted, mostly because of my son in law and my brother who I feel are being led down a dark road. Neither can answer a question. It's almost as if the HS is giving me words and scriptures that I've never really thought I'd have to defend before. Because I never knew this doctrine existed...never heard of it. Until a few months ago. So I also believe it is to my own personal benefit to mount up and take up the sword for my ownself.
It makes me search the scriptures and rely on the HS to give me wisdom. I have honestly taken in account that I could've been wrong all these years in what I believe...for a minute or three...lol.

I was totally flipped out when my son in law was telling me about this and I could hardly believe my ears. That's when I called my brother who's in church a lot and he has also been studying for a few months and actually believes it but can't exactly explain it. I was shocked once again. My sister doesn't believe it and she's flipped out, too. We have not talked to my oldest brother yet.I didn't want to start a family feud over this.

This entire thread has helped me have some answers to things that I never thought I'd have to defend. So it's to my good, for a reason. I don't know what that might be, exactly. But I'm sure I'll find out.

I appreciate everyone's input and the undergirding from everyone, while I'm trying to come up with the way to rebuke some of the responses that are pro tulip belief.

That's the good thing about some of these debates is that we learn how to battle and we learn a lot of things that we never even heard of before.

I'm practicing up, because I feel like we are going to have a battle on our hands soon with this reborn doctrine that seems to be spreading like wildfire thru some of the churches.

God bless everyone and give us wisdom.
And I love you all!!

Annie


----------



## JB0704

TimB said:


> Problem is that God in Acts 17:30 commands "All men evrywhere to repent. Kinda makes God look a little stupid to be commanding men who can't repent to repent.



I agree with your position, so I am a bit biased, but this seems to be the answer.  The question is not only how can a depraved / dead man repent, but why is it necessary if he is already elect?

I am glad this thread has gone for so long, there has been a lot of good stuff in here.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I agree with your position, so I am a bit biased, but this seems to be the answer.  The question is not only how can a depraved / dead man repent, but why is it necessary if he is already elect?



Because that is how God made it.

Just like He required death to fulfill the penalty of Sin.  C

Could God have made it to where His Son wouldn't have had to die?  Possibly...but that isn't what He did...so why even ask the question?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> ...so why even ask the question?



Why ask any questions?  I guess, with this line of thinking, we could all stop asking questions and recognize we have the answers because Calvin said so.

People are funny that way, RJ.

Oh, and it's a bit of a stretch to claim God made it that way, I think you will find plenty of disagreement with that assertion within this thread.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Why ask any questions?  I guess, with this line of thinking, we could all stop asking questions and recognize we have the answers because Calvin said so.
> 
> People are funny that way, RJ.
> 
> Oh, and it's a bit of a stretch to claim God made it that way, I think you will find plenty of disagreement with that assertion within this thread.



Well...let me phrase it like this then.

Why did God create everything in 7 days?

Could He have done it in 1 day?


Same line of reasoning...same question.

Could God make a rock so big that He couldn't lift it?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Why did God create everything in 7 days?
> 
> Could He have done it in 1 day?



Were they 24 hour days?  The first few were before the sun, which would kind-of make such an assertion tricky.  Follow me?

My point is that we ask questions to understand doctrine.  If you claim God wakes a dead man up to repent, then naturally we would ask why repent if his destination was already certain.  It is a logical path to walk, and one I believe nullifies the doctrine of election when taken in context with the rest of scripture.

So, for me, it is a very important question to ask becuase the fate of billions hangs in the intent, (not my interpretation, but the original intent).....right?  Whether or not we believe anybody has a chance outside fate changes according to the answer.  

You can follow the path you believe, but I will continue to ask questions.  I find that having answers strengthens my beliefs, or discards those which I find to be incorrect.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Were they 24 hour days?  The first few were before the sun, which would kind-of make such an assertion tricky.  Follow me?
> 
> My point is that we ask questions to understand doctrine.  If you claim God wakes a dead man up to repent, then naturally we would ask why repent if his destination was already certain.  It is a logical path to walk, and one I believe nullifies the doctrine of election when taken in context with the rest of scripture.
> 
> So, for me, it is a very important question to ask becuase the fate of billions hangs in the intent, (not my interpretation, but the original intent).....right?  Whether or not we believe anybody has a chance outside fate changes according to the answer.
> 
> You can follow the path you believe, but I will continue to ask questions.  I find that having answers strengthens my beliefs, or discards those which I find to be incorrect.



Right, but if you don't have a basic set of ground rules, the discussion can go on forever.  (see this thread for instance).

Why does man have to repent?  Because scripture says it.

Why does God call?  Because scripture says it.

Why is it 7 days?  Because scripture says it.

And the whole 24 hr period thing, look up the Hebrew term day that was used....same as any other day throughout the OT.  Also, Adam was how old when he died?  He wasn't created on day 7....so...the days back then were hundreds of years thing...just doesn't fly.

Either you believe their is one way to salvation ( through Jesus Christ and His death/resurrection) or you don't.

Some things just are.  Don't think you can really question it...unless you just don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Right, but if you don't have a basic set of ground rules, the discussion can go on forever.  (see this thread for instance)..



Who makes the ground rules?  Sure everything is as God made it, but how is everything?  Did God make folks elect, or did he give free will.  "Because God made it that way" only responds to the answer, not the question. 

You could make any assertion, and claim "because God made it that way" and still have an incorrect assertion.  I hope that makes sense.



rjcruiser said:


> And the whole 24 hr period thing, look up the Hebrew term day that was used....same as any other day throughout the OT.  Also, Adam was how old when he died?  He wasn't created on day 7....so...the days back then were hundreds of years thing...just doesn't fly..



Soemtimes I think you and I had the same professors.  I know this argument, but it does not address the fact that the Bible says God made light and Earth a few days before the sun.  Whether or not something flies is subjective.



rjcruiser said:


> Some things just are.  Don't think you can really question it...unless you just don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.



I disagree completely.  We are made in God's image.  So I would assume our natural thirst for knowledge is God given.  Questions are a very good thing and have led to many good reforms within Christianity, and even my belief system.  

Saying "because God made it" does not mean that God did anything.  It only means that is what the person making such a claim says God did.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Don't think you can really question it...unless you just don't believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God.



I seperated this quote from the others.

I question man.  Not God.  What you say the Bible says is not "God's word."  It is what RJ says the Bible says.

I lived my whole life under folks who said asking questions was questioning "the inerrant word of God."  What I discovered is that I found man's views of scripture can be incredibly errant.  Anytime there is man's influence on an idea (Calvinism), there is room for questions.  You might agree with me that man is fallen, and not to be trusted.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I seperated this quote from the others.
> 
> I question man.  Not God.  What you say the Bible says is not "God's word."  It is what RJ says the Bible says.
> 
> I lived my whole life under folks who said asking questions was questioning "the inerrant word of God."  What I discovered is that I found man's views of scripture can be incredibly errant.  Anytime there is man's influence on an idea (Calvinism), there is room for questions.  You might agree with me that man is fallen, and not to be trusted.



I'm not saying don't question different doctrinal positions...ie Calvanism...just saying that you can't question Scripture...or if you do, we'll never come to an agreement or position.


You can't read through Ephesians (or any book of the NT) and not see that God chose us...predestined us...knew us from before the beginning of time.

And on the flip side, you read in many books of man's responsibility to do good works, to respond, to repent.

Now, the question is, which came first, the chicken or the egg...that we can discuss and debate.

To me, when one starts thinking that they did something equally or moreso than God...that is where I start to have issues.  But...that is my opinion based on scripture.  You might have a differeing opinion


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> You can't read through Ephesians (or any book of the NT) and not see that God chose us...predestined us...knew us from before the beginning of time.



But, so many people do.  You can't read John 3:16 and still believe in the concept of only a few chosen make it to heaven without changing the definition of the word "world."  So, who is questioning God?  Free-will folks, or predes folks?  Both have a case for their conclusion.  I tend to believe there are cultural translation issues in the letters, and that leads me to avoid hanging my hat on a concept which nullifies the global nature of the crucifiction.  

We both can fire scripture at each other all day long, and folks have already covered that ground on this thread.



rjcruiser said:


> To me, when one starts thinking that they did something equally or moreso than God...that is where I start to have issues.



Who does this?  Nobody on here has claimed salvation can be accomplished outside of God.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> But, so many people do.  You can't read John 3:16 and still believe in the concept of only a few chosen make it to heaven without changing the definition of the word "world."  So, who is questioning God?  Free-will folks, or predes folks?  Both have a case for their conclusion.



So God can't love the "World" yet only save a few?



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> Who does this?  Nobody on here has claimed salvation can be accomplished outside of God.




If it is God's accomplishment, how can I choose before God?



I love how it is described in Romans 8

23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.

We are adopted by God.  Just like when a parent adopts a child...the child is chosen.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I love how it is described in Romans 8
> 
> 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
> 
> We are adopted by God.  Just like when a parent adopts a child...the child is chosen.



Kind-of counters the concept of total depravity, doesn't it?

I follow your thinking, just have a bit of a different conclusion


----------



## gemcgrew

Bama4me said:


> What you're missing is the fact that when Paul preached to those people on Mars Hill, he was speaking to part of the elect... had he been talking to the non-elect, we'd be reading something completely different.  Has to be the answer to passages containing "all", "everyone", or "anyone."



When Christ addressed a great multitude in Matthew 11, he was addressing everybody, right?

Or was he? 

"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. "(Matthew 11:15)


----------



## Huntinfool

Give it up RJ...

There is no argument that will get beyond "You're a man, man is flawed, I don't trust man's opinion because man is flawed, therefore you cannot prove to me that what you are saying is accurate....you are man....man is flawed"

God's word is not flawed apparently...just the men who read it and since all who read it are flawed, there is none who can interpret it accurately.

See the circle?  It does, though, lead me back to the question "Why ask questions?"  You are asking men....who are flawed and cannot possibly give anything but errant opinions.


----------



## JB0704

Uncool HF.  That was unecessary. In your usual zeal to take a shot at me without contemplating the content of my comments you failed to notice that the exchange in questioned ended amicably.

Not sure why you did that.


----------



## Huntinfool

I wasn't questioning whether the conversation ended in a friendly manner and I'm not going after you or taking a shot at you.  

That's just the logic that we're getting to at the end of every thread these days.  I'm just pointing it out.  It's circular.  There is no logic that will get past "Man is flawed.  Only man reads the Bible.  Therefore any man who reads the Bible is giving me flawed opinion."

Anybody can counter any argument that someone gives you with that circular reasoning.  If you believe that no man can give you a good interpretation of the Bible because their opinion is flawed, then you are left all alone on an island...and it begs the question "Why ask questions?"  There is only one who can answer and that is God.  All others are flawed and when one who uses this logic gets to an impass with somebody else or they get to the point in the discussion where their logic doesn't stack up, they can turn the tables by pointing out that all men are flawed and so are their opinions.

Maybe it would be better discussed as a new thread.  But it was not a shot at you.  I am just pointing out the circular nature of the thing.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> When Christ addressed a great multitude in Matthew 11, he was addressing everybody, right?
> 
> Or was he?
> 
> "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. "(Matthew 11:15)



So you figure part of the people didn't listen?


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Give it up RJ...
> 
> There is no argument that will get beyond "You're a man, man is flawed, I don't trust man's opinion because man is flawed, therefore you cannot prove to me that what you are saying is accurate....you are man....man is flawed"
> 
> God's word is not flawed apparently...just the men who read it and since all who read it are flawed, there is none who can interpret it accurately.
> 
> See the circle?  It does, though, lead me back to the question "Why ask questions?"  You are asking men....who are flawed and cannot possibly give anything but errant opinions.



Does that include Paul? or any preachers? Seems as this tulip belief is based almost entirely on Paul's letters to the other messianic jews who are at other churches preaching the gospel.

After we are saved and we don't live a Christian life, how are we suppose to do that without at least some discipleship? I was saved at 12 all I knew was John 3:16. I did very little wrong because I'd get a spanking if I did. So when I got 16 or 17, and started HS, I followed what the other kids did. God didn't force me or change me into a fullblown Christian meat eating adult. I still sat in church clueless. Mostly because I shoulda been in youth group and not with the adults, I didn't understand anything the preacher was talking about...I had no idea that David was Jesus, great, great,great,great,greatgrandfather. I just thought David was a bible story, didn't connect the to in anyway. Nor moses, nor abraham, they were just bible stories, not connected in any way for any reason.  I used none of that to help me with my Christian life. I like and understood some of psalms....still didn't relate how that related to Jesus though. But I was still saved I always believed who Jesus said He was and never denied Him and when I got lost the Good Shepherd came and got His lost lamb. Then I had an awakening into scripture, I needed lots of bible study. I didn't even comprehend that the story of David was a story for us, that God would give us the tools we need to overcome the giants in our life until I was 45yo. Why didn't someone tell me that? I didn't even know any questions to ask. I was simply saved and that was that.

The Bible is specific when it says that Christ died for everyone, and that God wishes no one to perish. I never felt any responsibility for my own salvation in any kind of way, I was way humbled by it, and that after all those years God had not forgotten the little girl lamb that got lost, but nothing really snatched her away. I was in awe of that, and still am.

I don't listen to every preacher and believe everything they say, I do have the HS to discern for me. I believe I was guided to the right church and to the right pastor for the type of preaching that I could comprehend.

Asking questions shouldn't be this much beating around the bush for sure.....but obviously the questions that some of have ask, we get no answers, and usually nothing back least it's some sort of talking down to us answer, as if we're stupid, or answering a question with another question.

It shouldn't be that hard to answer how do people that believe in the tulip doctrine preach the gospel and what's is the answer when a sinner says, will God save me?

That isn't a hard question, unless you (not you personally) choose to beat around the bush for 14 pages.

I know how I witness the gospel and all I want to know is how does a tulip believing person that doesn't believe all are  chosen by God to be saved, some are chosen to go to hades.....how is that preached to a sinner?


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Give it up RJ...
> 
> There is no argument that will get beyond "You're a man, man is flawed, I don't trust man's opinion because man is flawed, therefore you cannot prove to me that what you are saying is accurate....you are man....man is flawed"
> 
> God's word is not flawed apparently...just the men who read it and since all who read it are flawed, there is none who can interpret it accurately.
> 
> See the circle?  It does, though, lead me back to the question "Why ask questions?"  You are asking men....who are flawed and cannot possibly give anything but errant opinions.



I believe my pastor is Holy Ghost led.
So why so much emphesis on pauls opinions, and that question is for anyone, he was just a man, and so was John Calvin. Why believe either one? We might as well not go to preaching? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but is that what you're saying?

I usually am instantly convicted when something is revealed to me, whether convicted in a positive way to an eye opening revelation or a nay, run for your life from that.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> So God can't love the "World" yet only save a few?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it is God's accomplishment, how can I choose before God?
> 
> 
> 
> I love how it is described in Romans 8
> 
> 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body.
> 
> We are adopted by God.  Just like when a parent adopts a child...the child is chosen.



Paul in Romans 8 is talking to the already redeemed. He isn't talking to unsaved people.
He is trying to teach the Christians how to live a Christian life.

Are all orphans up for adoption or just a select few?


----------



## mtnwoman

John 3:15
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


I guess God could love the whole world but only save a select few...but that isn't what scripture says.

Honestly I thought the God in the OT, could not possibly be the God, Father of Jesus. If I thought I could not believe His word and that He really didn't give Jesus to die once and for all for everyone, I'm not sure....well I'm just not sure how I would feel about things, knowing that. I'll look and each and every person wondering could that person be saved, should I approach them? lie to them, throw out John 3:16 since most people I know were saved based on that verse. Maybe half the people I know are not saved....that would drive me insane. Wondering who? I would never have peace in knowing who in my family were saved.
And I can't say I'll know them by their fruit most of the time, because some of the kindest, most compassionate people I know aren't even saved.


----------



## Big7

JB0704 said:


> Saying "because God made it" does not mean that God did anything.  It only means that is what the person making such a claim says God did.



That's why the Bible IS NOT FOR SELF INTERPRETATION.

Surprise.. Surprise.. Surprise..
This ain't even from a Catholic site! Open.. READ UP!
http://bible.cc/2_peter/1-20.htm

This one is.. it basically says the same thing.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html 

Hint: NOBODY on this board or any layperson, Preacher, Pastor or Priest has the infallible knowledge to let the Bible 
fall out of the sky and read it then discern it on one's own.

Sooner yall get a grip on that.. Better off you will be..

Look back at: 
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/1-10.htm
purposefully chose anther non-Catholic site so
you can see even what your own Bible teaches.

READ UP. Have fun!

Get back with me where I'm wrong.?
PLEASE??


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Honestly I thought the God in the OT, could not possibly be the God, Father of Jesus. If I thought I could not believe His word and that He really didn't give Jesus to die once and for all for everyone, I'm not sure....well I'm just not sure how I would feel about things, knowing that.




And that is why some in here want me to discard the OT, or they want me to discard this book or chapter or verse of the Bible. I won't do it. God won't have it. They don't even know what they are asking me to do is to discard Christ.

It is the same God, the same Christ, in the OT and the NT. If you go back to the flood you will see that God hated everybody, and he took the everybody he hated and destroyed them. The same God loved everybody, and he took the everybody he loved and he placed them in Christ. He sealed them and preserved them in Christ, and they could not perish. John 3:16 is the same God, the same Christ. "For God so loved the world (everybody), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever(the everybody) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

So, in answer to the question that started the thread, "Who are the elect?"

My answer is "everybody".


----------



## mtnwoman

Big7 said:


> That's why the Bible IS NOT FOR SELF INTERPRETATION.
> 
> Surprise.. Surprise.. Surprise..
> This ain't even from a Catholic site! Open.. READ UP!
> http://bible.cc/2_peter/1-20.htm
> 
> This one is.. it basically says the same thing.
> http://www.scripturecatholic.com/scripture_alone.html
> 
> Hint: NOBODY on this board or any layperson, Preacher, Pastor or Priest has the infallible knowledge to let the Bible
> fall out of the sky and read it then discern it on one's own.
> 
> Sooner yall get a grip on that.. Better off you will be..
> 
> Look back at:
> http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/1-10.htm
> purposefully chose anther non-Catholic site so
> you can see even what your own Bible teaches.
> 
> READ UP. Have fun!
> 
> Get back with me where I'm wrong.?
> PLEASE??



You just ain't right........in da head






No I agree, it will take longer than I live to even get 10% of the Bible.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> And that is why some in here want me to discard the OT, or they want me to discard this book or chapter or verse of the Bible. I won't do it. God won't have it. They don't even know what they are asking me to do is to discard Christ.
> 
> It is the same God, the same Christ, in the OT and the NT. If you go back to the flood you will see that God hated everybody, and he took the everybody he hated and destroyed them. The same God loved everybody, and he took the everybody he loved and he placed them in Christ. He sealed them and preserved them in Christ, and they could not perish. John 3:16 is the same God, the same Christ. "For God so loved the world (everybody), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever(the everybody) believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
> 
> So, in answer to the question that started the thread, "Who are the elect?"
> 
> My answer is "everybody".



Well actually nobody in here has ask you to discard the OT. I don't do that. Our pastor/church doesn't do that. I've just said that throughout the OT God is talking to the Jews...and we were adopted in later. Does God tell us now in the NT to go out and kill bob and his youngun's down the street because there is sin in the camp? No because something changed, the crusifiction.

With all His might God could not get the Jews to obey Him, yet He is proned to save them, still. Not because He couldn't have forced them, but because they had free will. He could've made them obey, He could've made them accept Christ, but He didn't. He blinded them so we could be grafted in....HE let His own son be tortured and killed not only for the Jews but for anyone who would accept Him as Christ. God could've made any of us do anything He wanted us to do. He had to take Jonah for a whale ride, so did He force Jonah, yes, and Jonah was part of the chosen.  We were not yet chosen in the OT, or at least it doesn't say we are up until Peter came in. And God told Him not to consider the gentiles unclean, give them the gospel, too.  That appears to me, that Peter and the rest of the Jews, thought, but God we are the chosen, why let them in, too.....that God chose to give everyone a chance to be saved. There would've been no need for Jesus if the Jews had totally willingly obeyed God...so they must've had free will, too. We are adopted unto the same God so why wouldn't we have free will? And I don't mean free will to choose to do anything we want to, I've been turned sideways many times trying to do crapola that God knew I shouldn't. I'm talking freewill to accept Jesus, like that same freewill the Jews had to not obey God way earlier in the OT.  

All I've ask you that you won't answer is how do you witness to someone, if they ask you will God save them?


Would there have been a flood if the Jews/mankind didn't have free will to sin?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> That's just the logic that we're getting to at the end of every thread these days.  I'm just pointing it out.  It's circular.  There is no logic that will get past "Man is flawed.  Only man reads the Bible.  Therefore any man who reads the Bible is giving me flawed opinion."



HF, I read a "cheap shot" in your comments because it was very similar to some rather sarcastic previous posts.  If I read incorrectly, which I sometimes do, I apologize. 

And, maybe I'm the problem HF.  Here's the way I see it, and you can take this however, but every Christian on here reads certain scriptures and sees different things.  We then take our insight, and discuss with other believers.  Where we get problems is when we claim "truth."  We all claim we have it, you, me, even the atheists do someitmes.  Often the two positions are mutually exclusive.

Remember the "gay church worker" thread I deleted.  You had two sides, one (well, just me) arguing from the gospels, the other (everybody else) arguing from the letters.  Everybody started claiming "context!"  What is the difference between that discussion's ending point and this one's?  I feel everybody was strengthened (until somebody got on several days later and started taking cheap shots, which is why I deleted it).  We all walked away with a new perspective to consider.  I feel the same will happen here. 

Isn't that a good thing?  We don't have to agree with each other.  And I don't have to agree that what you are selling is true.  But we are challenged in the faith, circular reasoning or not, we put it all out there for folks to reason through.


----------



## JB0704

Big7 said:


> That's why the Bible IS NOT FOR SELF INTERPRETATION.



Ok.  I hear ya.  But, who is left to interpret it then?  We can say "let scripture interpret scripture," but we have to have a clue what scripture is saying in order for it to interpret itself.


----------



## Big7

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  I hear ya.  But, who is left to interpret it then?  We can say "let scripture interpret scripture,"_ but we have to have a clue_ what scripture is saying in order for it to interpret itself.



Back on up to HERE:  

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=6402532&postcount=566


----------



## JB0704

Big7 said:


> Back on up to HERE:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=6402532&postcount=566



I may have misunderstood your intent, but are you implying the Pope is 1/3 of your source when seeking interpretation?

I read that comment when you originally posted it, and was a bit confused then as well.  Whatever works for you is what you should do.  I am not Catholic, so I would have difficulty with that concept.


----------



## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> I may have misunderstood your intent, but are you implying the Pope is 1/3 of your source when seeking interpretation?
> 
> I read that comment when you originally posted it, and was a bit confused then as well.  Whatever works for you is what you should do.  I am not Catholic, so I would have difficulty with that concept.



I could be wrong but I believe Big 7 is saying that we get guidance from fallible men, like Peter, like Paul. Like our pastor. It's up to us to pray to God/Holy Spirit in discerning what certain scripture means. I know very little about Catholics, too. I can't say they are wrong, or right. It could be right for those for that type of preaching but not for others.  I personally need a certain type of teaching or leadership or understanding of scriptures. Some need more  obedience. One thing most of us have in common is John 3:16. None of us will ever be perfect or even know God's will for us, not even Peter who was a disciple of Christ...one of 12, how could we?

God is a complex deity, but a simple rule of thumb...Jesus is our salvation...and to believe that we become part of the whole.

We will never all agree, we can't. We only have to believe one thing to be saved and do the best we can with the rest of the Christian life. It depends on how deeply you depend on Christ, even for your questions. Which I've pretty much quit asking, except for here and there. I know what God wants me to do and wants me to believe based on how I can witness to others.  And I've prayed many times for help  for my unbelief in this or that area and all I go by is what I'm convicted of. He will give me the words and the perception that He wants me to have, based on the people He will send my way to witness to.  And that doesn't mean that if I grow in Him that I will not get into a different perception of what it is He wants me to put forth. Peter did, peter had a total reformation of what God wanted...even though Peter was raised differently.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## mtnwoman

If we are the body of Christ and I believe we are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBrhVRx4HSI&feature=related


----------



## Huntinfool

> HF, I read a "cheap shot" in your comments because it was very similar to some rather sarcastic previous posts. If I read incorrectly, which I sometimes do, I apologize.



No apology necessary.  I can see how it might be read that way.  Certainly was not intended.



> And, maybe I'm the problem HF.



Nah...like we know already...you and I just disagree on a lot of stuff.  Hopefully we'll help each other get stronger in our faith through all of this.



> Here's the way I see it, and you can take this however, but every Christian on here reads certain scriptures and sees different things. We then take our insight, and discuss with other believers. Where we get problems is when we claim "truth." We all claim we have it, you, me, even the atheists do someitmes. Often the two positions are mutually exclusive.



But, if no one can claim "truth", then there isn't much point in discussion IMO.  What is the Bible if it's not "truth".  As I said, if no one can claim truth, then there is only one who knows the truth and that is God.  All others are tainted by errancy and should not be trusted.  Why would we ask each other if no one can claim truth?



> We all walked away with a new perspective to consider. I feel the same will happen here.
> 
> Isn't that a good thing? We don't have to agree with each other. And I don't have to agree that what you are selling is true. But we are challenged in the faith, circular reasoning or not, we put it all out there for folks to reason through.



Yes, we all learn from each other...if we accept that there is truth in what someone is saying.  But if no one is allowed to claim truth...then I don't know what can be learned.

Anyway, back to the thread.  It's already long.  I don't need to make it longer by getting off topic.


----------



## rjcruiser

mtnwoman said:


> I believe my pastor is Holy Ghost led.
> So why so much emphesis on pauls opinions, and that question is for anyone, he was just a man, and so was John Calvin. Why believe either one? We might as well not go to preaching? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but is that what you're saying?



Well, the main difference between Paul and your pastor or Paul and Calvin is that Paul was an apostle of God.  His opinions that we have in the Bible are the infallible inerrant words of God.  That makes it more than just his opinion...it makes it God's opinion...in other words...Truth.

I would never put any man, your pastor, John Calvin, the Pope on an equal footing as any apostle or any book of the Bible.



mtnwoman said:


> Are all orphans up for adoption or just a select few?



All orphans are up for adoption....but not all children are orphans.  Also, not all orphans are adopted. But when they are adopted, they're chosen.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> Well, the main difference between Paul and your pastor or Paul and Calvin is that Paul was an apostle of God.  His opinions that we have in the Bible are the infallible inerrant words of God.  That makes it more than just his opinion...it makes it God's opinion...in other words...Truth.
> 
> I would never put any man, your pastor, John Calvin, the Pope on an equal footing as any apostle or any book of the Bible.
> *That I can agree with, we are pretty much HS lead, based on what we hear.*
> 
> 
> All orphans are up for adoption....but not all children are orphans.  Also, not all orphans are adopted. But when they are adopted, they're chosen.



But going back to your first answer on this post, we are talking about man adopting, and not God.  I would never put any man on an equal footing of adoption that I do God. He said the Jews were blinded so the gentiles could be grafted into the vine...not some of the gentiles, but the gentiles.  Peter didn't like that so much though, because he thought he and the other Jews could be the only chosen of God, because that's all he knew at the time.


----------



## rjcruiser

mtnwoman said:


> But going back to your first answer on this post, we are talking about man adopting, and not God.  I would never put any man on an equal footing of adoption that I do God. He said the Jews were blinded so the gentiles could be grafted into the vine...not some of the gentiles, but the gentiles.  Peter didn't like that so much though, because he thought he and the other Jews could be the only chosen of God, because that's all he knew at the time.



No...the term adoption is used for a reason.  God has adopted us as sons and daughters of His.  We've been chosen/adopted and now are part of His family.

Were the Jews blinded?  or did they choose not to see?


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> No...the term adoption is used for a reason.  God has adopted us as sons and daughters of His.  We've been chosen/adopted and now are part of His family.*I realize that, but we're all up for adoption. Will we all be adopted, no, just the ones that believe Jesus is who He says He is, because God is not a respector of persons or orphans.*
> 
> Were the Jews blinded?  or did they choose not to see?


 Both


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> All orphans are up for adoption....but not all children are orphans.*All the gentiles were ophans because they were not Jews, the chosen.*  Also, not all orphans are adopted.*No they aren't if they don't believe what the Jews were blinded to.* But when they are adopted, they're chosen. *And they will be chosen if they believe that Jesus is who He says He is, if not, they will be lost/left behind*



No matter how you look at it, you have to believe who Jesus says He is to be saved.

Jesus was put right before the Jews and they did not accept Him. And yet they were chosen, why did God have to blind them? so they wouldn't realize who Jesus was? why didn't He just unchoose them for a time? They are still His chosen people even though they are dead to Christ, just like a lot of gentiles are, there is no difference. They will have a chance to accept Christ from the 144,000 elect noted in revelation who will come to preach the gospel to them, why, if they were simply chosen, would they have to hear the gospel??


----------



## rjcruiser

So..I guess that it goes back to who makes the first move?  Does the adoptee choose their parents first?  or do the parent choose their adoptee and the adoptee then always accepts the parents because it is always a better option for the adoptee?

I view it as God makes the first move and everyone He chooses will accept.


----------



## ambush80

I'm a vessel of wrath like Pharaoh (without the perks).


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> So..I guess that it goes back to who makes the first move?  Does the adoptee choose their parents first?  or do the parent choose their adoptee and the adoptee then always accepts the parents because it is always a better option for the adoptee?
> 
> I view it as God makes the first move and everyone He chooses will accept.



Ok well then perhaps I can ask you the question I've been asking throughout this entire thread.

If someone comes to you and says, brother, I am not saved and I have been a terrible sinner all of my life, will God save me?

What will you say to him/her?


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> So..I guess that it goes back to who makes the first move?  Does the adoptee choose their parents first?  or do the parent choose their adoptee and the adoptee then always accepts the parents because it is always a better option for the adoptee?
> 
> I view it as God makes the first move and everyone He chooses will accept.



Actually in the orphanage in Kazakhstan  (sp?) where my home church has been adopting children for about 10 yrs. The orphange tries to keep the brothers and sisters together. So they only offer to our church, certain adoptee children.
The parents have no choice, they take what is offered to them.

The other church that we visit in winston, well that I visit, saved an entire village from destruction.  We had to take all or none or they would be executed. Sort of like VN but not VN but a village like that. Carinians (sp?) We had no choice. They all live together in a housing complex and they all sit together in church and they are all bussed together and the church has fostered them. All or none. The kids are intermingled with our children and participate in plays and childrens choir, but they live with their parents, but the entire village was adopted, not just part.


----------



## mtnwoman

This is what the church in winston believes, I doubt  that they know the tulip doctrine it being taught in my son in laws sundays school class...and I suppose that is why some in that class are going to seperate from that church...the tulip believers. They had a q&a this past sunday which my daughter did not attend and half the class didn't even realize that this was being taught or didn't realize that was what the teacher believes. At least my daughter stirred the post enough for someone to realize what was going on.

http://www.calvarynow.com/what-we-believe


----------



## 1gr8bldr

mtnwoman said:


> Ok well then perhaps I can ask you the question I've been asking throughout this entire thread.
> 
> If someone comes to you and says, brother, I am not saved and I have been a terrible sinner all of my life, will God save me?
> 
> What will you say to him/her?


----------



## TimB

rjcruiser said:


> Because that is how God made it.



You could use that answer to justify almost any outlandish doctrine you could come up with. The Bible says let everything be confirmed in the mouth of two or three witnesses. That is why most people require at least two firm scriptures saying the same thing before considering it as "doctrine". 

 And when two scriptures seem to disagree or contradict one another you have to look at the various circumstances, who it was talking to, when it was said and why and whether it was an "eternal" truth or just intended for a particular time/place/people/tribe etc.

 There are tons of scriptures (as I've said repeatedly) that say repentance takes place _before_ salvation comes and none that I know of that says repentance comes _after_ salvation. 

 So just saying _because_ God made it that way is just a convenient dodge. Show me two or three scriptures that _say_ God made it that way. Failing that , you got diddly .


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> If someone comes to you and says, brother, I am not saved and I have been a terrible sinner all of my life, will God save me?
> 
> What will you say to him/her?



I would answer truthfully and proclaim the Truth. "That is God's choice, not mine nor yours. God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner."


----------



## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> I would answer truthfully and proclaim the Truth. "That is God's choice, not mine nor yours. God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner."



so basically.... "can't help ya' bud. Hope God likes you, if not, your goin' to he11, good luck!"

Do you think it possible that a person being told "That is Gods' choice, not mine nor yours" would spend a lot of time trying to gain Gods' favor by doing things that they think would please Him?

So the first thing someone does under your premis is try to "work" themselves into Gods' favor. Sounds like a lot of other religions I know.

I am glad I have a relationship with Christ, and not just a religion. However, it takes two to tango in a relationship, God offered me (along with everyone who has ever lived) the chance to enjoy that relationship, and I accepted it.

If we don't have a choice, we are mere robots.


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I would answer truthfully and proclaim the Truth. "That is God's choice, not mine nor yours. God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner."



If she answers from Scripture, she'd say what Peter said in Acts 2:40 - "save yourselves from this perverse generation."  Not, "wait for God to save you because He has chosen you to either be saved or lost."

Or, if you don't like Acts 2:40, try 1 Thessalonians 1:8.  Those who will suffer eternal punishment are those who "do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel"... and the Greek language mandates these are things THEY did not do, not something done to/for them.  

Or, maybe you don't like 1 Thessalonians 1:8... in that case try Romans 1:18ff.  In verse 19, God provided all the information necessary to mankind to seek Him... yet verse 21 clearly claims THEY did not honor Him as God and THEY became futile in their thinking.

NO WHERE in the New Testament do you ever see one who has been taught the gospel/asks to be saved being told "that is God's choice, not mine nor yours."  Neither do you find them being told, "God makes the sinner and saves the sinner."  

Gem... show me one time in the book of Acts, a book of many conversion stories, where what you claim as truth can clearly be seen.  Show me one occurence when Peter or Paul or someone else indicated salvation was not their responsibility... but was God's.  I can show you MANY which clearly indicate accepting God's salvation is UP TO THEM... and it was their choice.


----------



## stringmusic

I have not read this whole thread, has anybody presented these scriptures?

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,[d] and violent people have been raiding it. 13 For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come. 15 Whoever has ears, let them hear.    16 “To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others: 

   17 “‘We played the pipe for you, 
   and you did not dance; 
we sang a dirge, 
   and you did not mourn.’ 

   18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’ 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’ But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.” 

Woe on Unrepentant Towns
 20 Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[e] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.” 
The Father Revealed in the Son
 25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. 
   27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 

I think it is clear that the Son chose to reveal Him to everyone. See verses 14 & 15 and 28 below
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”


----------



## mtnwoman

stringmusic said:


> so basically.... "can't help ya' bud. Hope God likes you, if not, your goin' to he11, good luck!"
> 
> Do you think it possible that a person being told "That is Gods' choice, not mine nor yours" would spend a lot of time trying to gain Gods' favor by doing things that they think would please Him?
> 
> So the first thing someone does under your premis is try to "work" themselves into Gods' favor. Sounds like a lot of other religions I know.
> 
> I am glad I have a relationship with Christ, and not just a religion. However, it takes two to tango in a relationship, God offered me (along with everyone who has ever lived) the chance to enjoy that relationship, and I accepted it.
> 
> If we don't have a choice, we are mere robots.



Yeah or continue in sin thinking..welp, i'm saved or not 50-50 chance, can't do nuttin about it either way, I might as well have me some fun.

Lord help us God, if that is what my brother and others are teaching their children.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I would answer truthfully and proclaim the Truth. "That is God's choice, not mine nor yours. God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner."



WOW!!!

So basically that's your gospel in a nutshell, eh?

That oughta bring some lost souls to Christ.


----------



## mtnwoman

Why did God allow/create/use the flood to destroy the earth/world, if man didn't have free will to sin against God?

Why did God destroy sodom and gommorrah if man didn't have free will to sin? Couldn't He just make them act right? Yes He could have.

Did adam and eve have free will to sin?

Did David have free will to sin, and to kill his rival in love?

Did Moses act on his free will when he broke the tablets?

Did God know these things would happen, I'm sure He did. Did He allow free will, yes. Were these people punished for acting wrongly on their own free will, yes.

Could God have stopped them from doing these things by taking their free will away? Of course He could. But He didn't.


----------



## gemcgrew

stringmusic said:


> so basically.... "can't help ya' bud.


I am not in the people saving business! I can't help him and he can't help himself. I do not have the responsibility nor the ability to save him. I could convince him to walk an aisle, say a prayer, or do this thing or that thing to obtain salvation and he would be no better off. "Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" (Exodus 14:13). 
"Salvation is of the Lord" 
In its planning (Ephesians 1:3-6) (2 Timothy 1:9) (Romans 8:28-30)
In its purchase (Romans 3:24-26) (Galatians 3:13) (Hebrews 9:12) (1 Peter 1:18-20)
In its execution (John 3:8) (Ephesians 2:1-9) 
In its preservation (John 10:27-30) (Jeremiah 32:38-40)
In its completion (Philippians 1:6) (Ephesians 5:25-27) (Jude 24-25). 




stringmusic said:


> Hope God likes you, if not, your goin' to he11, good luck!"



"Like" has nothing to do with it, "Love" has everything to do with it. "Luck" has nothing to do with it, "Purpose" has everything to do with it.



stringmusic said:


> So the first thing someone does under your premis is try to "work" themselves into Gods' favor. Sounds like a lot of other religions I know.


That is your premise, not mine.



stringmusic said:


> God offered me (along with everyone who has ever lived) the chance to enjoy that relationship, and I accepted it.


Then it is your accepting that accomplished salvation. Yay you! 



stringmusic said:


> If we don't have a choice, we are mere robots.



And if that makes me a robot, I don't have an issue with it.


----------



## ambush80

stringmusic said:


> so basically.... "can't help ya' bud. Hope God likes you, if not, your goin' to he11, good luck!"
> 
> Do you think it possible that a person being told "That is Gods' choice, not mine nor yours" would spend a lot of time trying to gain Gods' favor by doing things that they think would please Him?
> 
> So the first thing someone does under your premis is try to "work" themselves into Gods' favor. Sounds like a lot of other religions I know.
> 
> I am glad I have a relationship with Christ, and not just a religion. However, it takes two to tango in a relationship, God offered me (along with everyone who has ever lived) the chance to enjoy that relationship, and I accepted it.
> 
> If we don't have a choice, we are mere robots.



Or humble instruments in the service of the Lord.  It's a matter of perspective.  How important do you think your will is in comparison to the Lord's?


----------



## Bama4me

gemcgrew said:


> I am not in the people saving business! I can't help him and he can't help himself. I do not have the responsibility nor the ability to save him. I could convince him to walk an aisle, say a prayer, or do this thing or that thing to obtain salvation and he would be no better off. "Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" (Exodus 14:13).
> "Salvation is of the Lord"
> In its planning (Ephesians 1:3-6) (2 Timothy 1:9) (Romans 8:28-30)
> In its purchase (Romans 3:24-26) (Galatians 3:13) (Hebrews 9:12) (1 Peter 1:18-20)
> In its execution (John 3:8) (Ephesians 2:1-9)
> In its preservation (John 10:27-30) (Jeremiah 32:38-40)
> In its completion (Philippians 1:6) (Ephesians 5:25-27) (Jude 24-25).



I don't think you'll get any argument from folks on this board regarding the church's planning/purchase... both concepts are clearly supported by Scripture.  However, the other three are not biblical.

"Its execution"?  John 3:8 doesn't teach that man has no part in his salvation... Jesus was used an analogy to help explain that being "born again" didn't have to completely be understood to be valid in God's sight (see verse 7).  The very passage you claim supports "execution" (Eph. 2:1ff) bu God alone, actually teaches otherwise in verse 8 - for you have been saved by grace THROUGH faith.

"Its preservation"?  John 11:29 claims no one can snatch us away out of God's hand... but does it comment on one who may willingly "walk away?"  Like, say, those who in 2 Peter 2:20 "escaped the pollutions of the world" only to become "entangled in them again"?  With both John 11 and Jeremiah 32, you insert your beliefs into the passage rather than exegetically getting them out.

"Its completion"?  In all three passages, you are making them say what you want them to... despite the clear fact that all three letters indicate Christians can exert their free will in decision making.  Try Philippians 1:10... that YOU may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ."  Try the concepts of "walk" in Ephesians... walk in love, walk as children of light, walk as circumspectly.  Try Jude 21... keep YOURSELVES in the love of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> WOW!!!
> 
> So basically that's your gospel in a nutshell, eh?



You proposed the question "will God save me?" Was there more to your question?




mtnwoman said:


> That oughta bring some lost souls to Christ.



That is the work of God the Holy Spirit. I can't do it and I won't pretend to others that I can.
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:1-5)


----------



## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> I am not in the people saving business! I can't help him and he can't help himself. I do not have the responsibility nor the ability to save him. I could convince him to walk an aisle, say a prayer, or do this thing or that thing to obtain salvation and he would be no better off. "Stand still and see the salvation of the Lord" (Exodus 14:13).
> "Salvation is of the Lord"
> In its planning (Ephesians 1:3-6) (2 Timothy 1:9) (Romans 8:28-30)
> In its purchase (Romans 3:24-26) (Galatians 3:13) (Hebrews 9:12) (1 Peter 1:18-20)
> In its execution (John 3:8) (Ephesians 2:1-9)
> In its preservation (John 10:27-30) (Jeremiah 32:38-40)
> In its completion (Philippians 1:6) (Ephesians 5:25-27) (Jude 24-25).


What is your understanding of the great commission? 





> That is your premise, not mine.


You consider the accepting on my park "works". The fact is that someone who does not know the Lord and is not sure if they are the elect, but they want to be a servant of the Lord, will try to do a lot of religious things to gain favor of God.




> Then it is your accepting that accomplished salvation. Yay you!


If I give you an undeserved 100 dollar bill as a gift, did you earn or work for the money or just accept it?

The point is that salvation can only be had if God allows it to happen, and He has, by Christ, to everyone. The choice we have of acception is also part of that gift. There are no "works" done on our part, all that is done with the acceptance is a "thank you"





> And if that makes me a robot, I don't have an issue with it.


Does love really exist if you're a robot? How can God really love us and not give us a choice to love, or not love Him back?

I'll answer for you, it can't. When love exist, both parties must accept the other.


----------



## Bama4me

I have stayed in this thread primarily for benefit of those who may read this thread and learn what the Bible says about the subject.  If you're reading this thread for that purpose, please notice the fact that many passages from God's word has been cited to support man's free will in the salvation of his/her soul... and please notice that like a skillful boxer, many questions have not been answered by the opposite position.

I believe there is enough information in this thread to be able to prove that holding to the idea of "unconditional election" will put you in a place to have to "explain away" the meaning of numerous biblical passages.  Am more than happy to encourage everyone to read through this entire thread and come to his/her conclusion.


----------



## stringmusic

ambush80 said:


> Or humble instruments in the service of the Lord.  It's a matter of perspective.  How important do you think your will is in comparison to the Lord's?



Not very, doesn't make me a robot, it is my choice to loose my will to gain His.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> You proposed the question "will God save me?" Was there more to your question?*If I'm unsaved is it my responsibility to ask the right questions or is it your responsibility to witness the gospel to me? What does the bible say about the great commission. You wouldn't have anything else to say to an unsaved person except God makes the sinner and God saves the sinner...... or would you continue in your truth and say but He doesn't save ALL sinners, they are prechosen, you know to withold information is the same as deceiving, don't you?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is the work of God the Holy Spirit. I can't do it and I won't pretend to others that I can.*So the HS is suppose to be on the great commission not us? Is that what you're sayin?*
> "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:1-5)


*And that's what you're gonna say to a person who knows nothing of the meat of the Bible. Doesn't God say to come as a child? How would a child understand more than Jesus loves me, or John 3:16??*

Good Lord, I'm glad I'm saved. Thank you Jesus, thank you Father, thank you Holy Spirit, that I have my feet planted firmly in the word.


----------



## mtnwoman

stringmusic said:


> it is my choice to loose my will to gain His.



Come into my heart Lord Jesus and please please please thy will be done!!!!


----------



## Big7

Yall just tryin' to get a record # of posts in a single thread??

That's all.


----------



## mtnwoman

Bama4me said:


> I have stayed in this thread primarily for benefit of those who may read this thread and learn what the Bible says about the subject.  If you're reading this thread for that purpose, please notice the fact that many passages from God's word has been cited to support man's free will in the salvation of his/her soul... and please notice that like a skillful boxer, many questions have not been answered by the opposite position.
> 
> I believe there is enough information in this thread to be able to prove that holding to the idea of "unconditional election" will put you in a place to have to "explain away" the meaning of numerous biblical passages.  Am more than happy to encourage everyone to read through this entire thread and come to his/her conclusion.



Amen!!!!  me, too!!


----------



## mtnwoman

Big7 said:


> Yall just tryin' to get a record # of posts in a single thread??
> 
> That's all.



Dat's right big boy, so keepapostin'.....LOL

So far the thread has gone well....and lots of info.

Still no real answer to my questions though.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> You proposed the question "will God save me?" Was there more to your question?




Speaking of questions here's few different ones.

Why did God destroy the earth/world with a flood, if man had no free will to sin.

Did Adam and Eve have free will to sin?


Did David have freewill to kill his love rival?

Did Moses have free will to break the tablets?


They were all punished, would God have punished them if they were working on God's will?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> That is the work of God the Holy Spirit. I can't do it and I won't pretend to others that I can.
> "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)"(Ephesians 2:1-5)



Wouldn't that have happened before I ask you will God save me? Had I not been wooed by the HS? And I do agree that after we are saved the HS is a huge part of us living a Christian life, I have no doubt in that.


You keep saying one thing comes first then you say something else comes first.

So wouldn't you (believing what you do) believe that by that person asking you that question would've been chosen 
already and that's what brings them to want that information?

That's what's so confusing about you talking in circles, one time it's this way and in another scenerio it's another way.


Didn't you just say 'let he who has ears to hear' ? Well then wouldn't you have to hear the gospel to believe the gospel? And who's suppose to preach the gospel? The Holy Spirit?


----------



## StriperAddict

stringmusic said:


> Not very, doesn't make me a robot, it is my choice to loose my will to gain His.


 
Quite profound, yet simple in it's meaning to a believer moving in God's grace.  Thanks


----------



## mtnwoman

StriperAddict said:


> Quite profound, yet simple in it's meaning to a believer moving in God's grace.  Thanks



I agree!!


----------



## mtnwoman

Perhaps there are just questions that can not be explained away by a scripture here and there....who said we don't seek a god? Who said we were incapable of seeking our God? The word of God, if you believe the word of God, tells us to seek Him. It's in us to seek a higher power, God put that in us when we were made. He wants us to tell the world/earth/all nations/all peoples about Him. Thus the great commission.

Matthew 7

7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 

 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 

 9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 

 10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 

 11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? 

God is telling us that if we seek Him we will find Him. He pricks the heart of everyone that has ever been born. Even the ancient folks made idols to worship so they were seeking. And those that still worship those idols are the ones that we need to preach the gospel to...the great commission.

There would be no need for a great commission if we were prechosen, no cross if we were prechosen. Why wouldn't God just cut the chase and go on to heaven...instead of defeating satan....God up there laughing and watching us run in circles with the lower gods?

Seek and yeah shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door will be opened to you.

God offers us a free gift and we can receive it or refuse it....doesn't mean if we accept it that we are taking credit for it. We are simply accepting the truth of the gospel.

If someone is hanging on the side of a cliff (been there) and someone offers us a hand to pull us up out of the muck and we accept that hand, does that in any way indicate that we are taking credit for our being pulled up? No....the hero is the one that offered His life for ours, giving us the opportunity that we will accept the invitation to be saved. Would I brag that I saved my own life.....nope, makes no sense at all to do that.

The tulip doctrine may not effect those who are saved, excepting it or not. But it sure could effect the unsaved who think they only have a 50/50 chance of being saved.  They are out there thinking, IF God wants to save me, then I'll know it????? Lordy that is scary.


----------



## TimB

mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps there are just questions that can not be explained away by a scripture here and there....who said we don't seek a god? Who said we were incapable of seeking our God? The word of God, if you believe the word of God, tells us to seek Him. It's in us to seek a higher power, God put that in us when we were made. He wants us to tell the world/earth/all nations/all peoples about Him. Thus the great commission.
> 
> Matthew 7
> 
> 7Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
> 
> 8For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
> 
> 9Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
> 
> 10Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
> 
> 11If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
> 
> God is telling us that if we seek Him we will find Him. He pricks the heart of everyone that has ever been born. Even the ancient folks made idols to worship so they were seeking. And those that still worship those idols are the ones that we need to preach the gospel to...the great commission.
> 
> There would be no need for a great commission if we were prechosen, no cross if we were prechosen. Why wouldn't God just cut the chase and go on to heaven...instead of defeating satan....God up there laughing and watching us run in circles with the lower gods?
> 
> Seek and yeah shall find, ask and ye shall receive, knock and the door will be opened to you.
> 
> God offers us a free gift and we can receive it or refuse it....doesn't mean if we accept it that we are taking credit for it. We are simply accepting the truth of the gospel.
> 
> If someone is hanging on the side of a cliff (been there) and someone offers us a hand to pull us up out of the muck and we accept that hand, does that in any way indicate that we are taking credit for our being pulled up? No....the hero is the one that offered His life for ours, giving us the opportunity that we will accept the invitation to be saved. Would I brag that I saved my own life.....nope, makes no sense at all to do that.
> 
> The tulip doctrine may not effect those who are saved, excepting it or not. But it sure could effect the unsaved who think they only have a 50/50 chance of being saved.  They are out there thinking, IF God wants to save me, then I'll know it????? Lordy that is scary.




You are right on all points Annie (as usual!). I consider the Calvinist view to be heretical. There are just so many verses of scripture that make it non-sensical, many you have pointed out here. I pray that those who have been deceived by that doctrine be delivered from it. 

 btw, like your new avatar but sure miss seeing your smiling face!


----------



## mtnwoman

My oldest brother, 2 yrs younger than me, came to this area over the thanksgiving holidays to move his son to raleigh...which is 2 hours from me and 4 hours from them. 

I finally got to ask him what he thought about being preselected/predestined to be saved.  Tried to explain to him about our younger bro and my son in law believing that we are preselected. Even his own wife, my oldest brothers wife who is a liberal to the extreme thought it was an incorrect doctrine.  My oldest bro, her husband, calls her a neonazipinkocomy/liberal, and even she believes that we have a choice and we are not preselected.  She said no one forces us to chose one way or the other, including abortion, salvation of Christ, choice of being gay or not, admits that we all have a choice. Why is it then, that even some Christians don't believe we have a choice? 

I know I have free will....it's sometimes not the best free will....but when someone or some thing, can change my mind....then I believe in the supernatural.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> and even she believes that we have a choice and we are not preselected.



If it is a choice that separates those in heaven from those in he11, then salvation is acquired by something we do.

Salvation is the work of God's free grace alone. We do nothing. We contribute nothing. Nothing is determined by or dependent upon our will or our works. "Salvation is of the LORD!"


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> If it is a choice that separates those in heaven from those in he11, then salvation is acquired by something we do.
> 
> Salvation is the work of God's free grace alone. We do nothing. We contribute nothing. Nothing is determined by or dependent upon our will or our works. "Salvation is of the LORD!"



With all due apologies, the matter as you have pointed out is all a matter of semantics. Work is the act of physical change, moving mass over some distance. The expense of mental energy, in a thought process, is not work. Making a conscious decision to follow Christ or not does not qualify as "work" in the context of what Scripture calls "works".

If one concludes that absolutely nothing is essential on our part to receive the free gift of salvation, then what is "believing" or "receiving"? These are mental processes, like "accepting" or "repenting", that actually result in us taking action. 

Under the scheme you hold to, where we have no part in salvation, whether we receive or reject, whether we believe or disavow, has no bearing on our being saved or not. Brother, that runs counter to the very words of Christ. By application of your criteria, "confessing" is a work,.... a work that is essential to salvation. 

When anyone, myself included, comes on here and makes a statement, it is always prudent to define terms and understand the subject matter first. What you have suggested here, does not gee and haw with most of the NT. God alone is responsible for providing the means to reconciliation and the faith to receive salvation, but if we "do nothing" with what He offers, we will miss the wedding feast completely.


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> If one concludes that absolutely nothing is essential on our part to receive the free gift of salvation, then what is "believing" or "receiving"?



"Believing" or "receiving" is a response to salvation, not how you acquired salvation.


----------



## Israel

it's a peculiar thing (I know, I say that a lot)...but it seems the "work" is required to deny salvation.
A man comes to me and tells me Jesus is alive in the resurrection, my sins are forgiven, and I have been reconciled to God through Jesus death ...and I am in much need of this truth because of the coming wrath to be revealed.
All at once...and I know not how...I believe this. (Later I discover what voice confirmed this to me..."But when he the spirit of truth is come, whom the Father shall send in my name he will reprove the world of righteousness, sin, and judgment...for I walked as a man always waiting for "the other shoe to drop"...and knew not why...but now I did!) So, now since I see what I didn't see (and I know I didn't "make myself see it")...I simply confess, Jesus is Lord. No less than a man who steps outside can say "the sun is out today"...my confession doesn't mean I have figured something out, made myself believe, or even used my will to acquire faith.
Tell me, we who use Paul so frequently to buttress our faith (and sadly, arguments). When you are knocked down and blinded and reproved for your deeds...and you cry out "who are you?" And you hear the answer...
can you take any measure or part for your own doing for simply telling everyone who answered your question?

Here's another...when Jesus asks you "who do you say I am" and you answer "thou art the son of the living God"...and Jesus tells you you are blessed for knowing that...and you probably think you're pretty hot stuff for giving the "right" answer...not only hot stuff...but now ready to advise the Lord regarding his trip to Jerusalem...and then later...correct him in front of everyone about who will abandon him "even if all these others do..."...tell me...when did Peter know Jesus is Lord? Was it there when he was commended for his confession? Or was it the morning after a night of desperate tears...?
Jesus is Lord. It's 60 something degrees in Savannah right now. And the fact that I know both of them has never really had anything to do with me at all...I just don't have any energy or care to deny either.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> it's a peculiar thing (I know, I say that a lot)...but it seems the "work" is required to deny salvation.
> A man comes to me and tells me Jesus is alive in the resurrection, my sins are forgiven, and I have been reconciled to God through Jesus death ...and I am in much need of this truth because of the coming wrath to be revealed.
> All at once...and I know not how...I believe this. (Later I discover what voice confirmed this to me..."But when he the spirit of truth is come, whom the Father shall send in my name he will reprove the world of righteousness, sin, and judgment...for I walked as a man always waiting for "the other shoe to drop"...and knew not why...but now I did!) So, now since I see what I didn't see (and I know I didn't "make myself see it")...I simply confess, Jesus is Lord. No less than a man who steps outside can say "the sun is out today"...my confession doesn't mean I have figured something out, made myself believe, or even used my will to acquire faith.
> Tell me, we who use Paul so frequently to buttress our faith (and sadly, arguments). When you are knocked down and blinded and reproved for your deeds...and you cry out "who are you?" And you hear the answer...
> can you take any measure or part for your own doing for simply telling everyone who answered your question?
> 
> Here's another...when Jesus asks you "who do you say I am" and you answer "thou art the son of the living God"...and Jesus tells you you are blessed for knowing that...and you probably think you're pretty hot stuff for giving the "right" answer...not only hot stuff...but now ready to advise the Lord regarding his trip to Jerusalem...and then later...correct him in front of everyone about who will abandon him "even if all these others do..."...tell me...when did Peter know Jesus is Lord? Was it there when he was commended for his confession? Or was it the morning after a night of desperate tears...?
> Jesus is Lord. It's 60 something degrees in Savannah right now. And the fact that I know both of them has never really had anything to do with me at all...I just don't have any energy or care to deny either.




I can look at a thermometer to know the temp.   How am I going to see the enigmatic and elusive God head without His help?


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> "Believing" or "receiving" is a response to salvation, not how you acquired salvation.



I keep going back to Scripture that tells over and over and over how belief precedes salvation. Now, I would agree that the revelation of what God has done must precede all else. But I just don't see how salvation is more than a concept until the human mind agrees with God. It is, according to my reading of God's Word, not salvation unto me until I have submitted to His calling me. Is the rebellious teenager that rejects Christ at 19 saved at 19, even though he doesn't make a commitment till he is 40? If so, how can he be saved and not know or experience it until 21 years later? God made provision for my salvation and everyone else at Calvary. I was saved at 11. What was my condition from birth until 11? I can tell you. I was a lost sinner, bound for eternal separation from God.

Understand, I make no claim for having done anything to merit God's grace. To accept the gift of eternal life through Christ, is not a measure of my actions. It is a work done by Him. Receiving that gift is truly NOT a work of mine, but it is a capitulation of my life apart from His lordship. It is both a spiritual and mental process, but it is not a physical one and is not "work" in the scriptural sense. 

The compelling nature of Christ is not coercion; it is not forced on any one. It is an appeal to respond to the inexhaustible love God has shone us. Where is the glory for God, if His trophies of grace are forcibly subdued? It is in the willingness to be subject and obedient to Christ that we receive salvation. It is in that way that God is glorified of men. (He is also glorified in that He justly punishes the unrepentant sinner). I can not see it any other way.  

Israel, your point is well taken. Jesus is Lord. Indeed, as I mentioned before, I see this impasse as semantics. I believe that an act of the will is not works. Sometimes the "willing" is only evidenced by the testimony of "good intentions". Does God allow us the exercise of the will He has bestowed upon us or does He completely and utterly negate our will? The end is the same either way, yet I see more of the love of God in the former and less in the latter. I may love my wife more than any human in this universe, but if she does not love me of her own will, what can be said of our relationship?


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> It is, according to my reading of God's Word, not salvation unto me until I have submitted to His calling me.



"Salvation is of the Lord" and not of your submission. One does not have the will, desire nor ability to submit prior to the new birth. And that very submission is a gift of God's grace.



gtparts said:


> Understand, I make no claim for having done anything to merit God's grace (did you not just say that there is no salvation until you submit?). To accept the gift of eternal life through Christ, is not a measure of my actions (again, submission?). It is a work done by Him.


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew,

How many souls are on record as being saved without submission? None! I would be amazed to enter heaven to find souls that were unrepentant. Is it possible for someone to make a decision or take action without taking any credit for him or herself? Of course! People (Christians included) can and do, every day. I do things all the time and give God all the credit. The idea that one can make a decision for Christ without the inward working of the Holy Spirit is ludicrous. I have never denied that and yes, it precedes the consummation of the beginning of the new relationship we have with God through Christ.

My friend, do me the courtesy of responding to the questions I posed in post #672. It serves no purpose to keep hammering away with the Calvinistic hard line. David prayed and wrote this: "Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation." All salvation comes from God. It is all the work of His love and grace. But, if I do not accept it as the free gift that it is, then I am still under condemnation. I don't have to "do something" to receive it; I just have to receive it.


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> I can look at a thermometer to know the temp.   How am I going to see the enigmatic and elusive God head without His help?


Actually...that's the point.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> Actually...that's the point.



That's gemcgrew's point.  I could be sitting here reading The Satanic Verses minding my own business and then all of a sudden, God pokes me in the shin or heart or whatever He does to get one's attention.  If He then decides to use me for His purpose and He turns me into a monster like Pharaoha or a televangelist , what can I do to stop Him?


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> Is the rebellious teenager that rejects Christ at 19 saved at 19, even though he doesn't make a commitment till he is 40?



Not understanding your question here, but the way I read it, no.



gtparts said:


> God made provision for my salvation and everyone else at Calvary.



Then everyone will be saved.



gtparts said:


> I was saved at 11. What was my condition from birth until 11?



You were spiritually dead.



gtparts said:


> I can tell you. I was a lost sinner, bound for eternal separation from God.



Without God's intervention, yes.



gtparts said:


> Understand, I make no claim for having done anything to merit God's grace. To accept the gift of eternal life through Christ, is not a measure of my actions. It is a work done by Him. Receiving that gift is truly NOT a work of mine, but it is a capitulation of my life apart from His lordship. It is both a spiritual and mental process, but it is not a physical one and is not "work" in the scriptural sense.



Here is where you confuse me. You say that you did nothing to merit God's grace but then you say that you had the ability to accept or reject it. If what separates you from those in he11 is your accepting or rejecting (a choice you made) then that is definitely something you did, is it not?



gtparts said:


> Where is the glory for God, if His trophies of grace are forcibly subdued?



His glory is in the salvation of His people.



gtparts said:


> It is in the willingness to be subject and obedient to Christ that we receive salvation.



No, and you are back to works again.


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> That's gemcgrew's point.  I could be sitting here reading The Satanic Verses minding my own business and then all of a sudden, God pokes me in the shin or heart or whatever He does to get one's attention.  If He then decides to use me for His purpose and He turns me into a monster like Pharaoha or a televangelist , what can I do to stop Him?



Whether you realize it or not, He is using you for His purpose now.


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> Whether you realize it or not, He is using you for His purpose now.




I'm a vessel of wrath.


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> I'm a vessel of wrath.



There was a time in my life when I felt the same way and was determined to make the most of it. Thankfully, God's determination was immutable.


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> There was a time in my life when I felt the same way and was determined to make the most of it. Thankfully, God's determination was immutable.



The balls in His court then.  No, wait,  He made the ball and the court and the rules.  Time to beg for mercy I guess.


----------



## hummerpoo

gtparts said:


> Is the rebellious teenager that rejects Christ at 19 saved at 19, even though he doesn't make a commitment till he is 40? If so, how can he be saved and not know or experience it until 21 years later?



The scenerio doesn't exactly align with my life, but it's close enough for me to say "I definitely resemble that remark".  I didn't experience it until 28 years later


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Time to beg for mercy I guess.



You could but you won't, because you don't need it. If mercy does take place, it will be at a time and a place of His choosing. I have more hope for you than I do for most churchgoers.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> If it is a choice that separates those in heaven from those in he11, then salvation is acquired by something we do.
> 
> Salvation is the work of God's free grace alone. We do nothing. We contribute nothing. Nothing is determined by or dependent upon our will or our works. "Salvation is of the LORD!"



Please read my entire post and not respond to the first part only. I make some kind of point in the end.

I agree salvation IS of the Lord, but it is offered to everyone, not a chosen few.

That isn't what scripture says..... on the simplest level let the children come to Me, He says, the children have to come which is an action on their part, He says my sheep know my voice and they follow, another action....or obedience of you will.  We are obeying Him when He tells us to open the door and He will come in a sup with thee....but your obedience as an action, is acceptance that you are willing to follow Him and that you get it. You have surrendered to Him, He who gave all. The Bible says whosoever believeth in Him....and at 12 I did, the Holy Spirit nudged me and I lined up behind Jesus at that time.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> "Believing" or "receiving" is a response to salvation, not how you acquired salvation.



A response on our part, that's an action, it requires some kind of action. 

Whosoever believeth....believeth is an action on our part that is required for salvation. When I got saved, and believed what John 3:16 says, it took me a few sundays to get the nerve to publicly accept Christ in front of the church.  And as soon as I went up there, I was so humbled and so relieved. That was a long time ago, and that's just what we did. But I felt Him calling me and I could not resist any more, so I went to the alter...that was 50 years ago.

I cannot change how I was saved, and knew what I needed to do to accept, I didn't just sit there and do nothing, I surrendered. Did I save myself or think I did.....of course not.....I understood there was no way to save myself, but I do know what Christ ask us to do to be saved, repent...that's an action. 

Since God knows all who are going to be saved, then shouldn't He just take us on away? Why are we still here? If none of us have a choice, why don't He have a little more mercy and spare us of what we're going thru? Maybe just a game on His part to see us running around in circles, trying to figure out what we have to do or what we don't have to do.

And why preach the gospel to anyone because we are all predestined which means God's chosen is His chosen, surely He isn't waiting on a response from them....that would be something He required of them....acceptance.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I can look at a thermometer to know the temp.   How am I going to see the enigmatic and elusive God head without His help?



You won't....none of us will.

But you gotta let Him, it's your choice.....to receive or deny.

Don't you think you have a choice right now to deny Him.....obviously you do.
Even though I believe He is calling you, too.  You are not preselected....God is not a respector of persons.....whosoever believeth and that includes you. Jesus says He knocks on your heart, and asks you to open the door and He'll come in and mull it over with you....you might end up loving Jesus, like we do.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> You could but you won't, because you don't need it. If mercy does take place, it will be at a time and a place of His choosing. I have more hope for you than I do for most churchgoers.



I have hope for everyone, I can't pick or even slightly remotely think that it's my HOPE that saves someone.

Christ is always calling us, He stands and knocks....you gotta open the door. And you either can or can't refuse that calling.....you don't have hope for churchgoers? how about nonchurchgoers, you don't have hope for them, and what difference does YOUR hope mean to a God who has already predestined them?  Your choices, your prayers, your hope is worthless to God......it's all predetermined, according to the doctrine you support.


----------



## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> gemcgrew,
> 
> How many souls are on record as being saved without submission? None! I would be amazed to enter heaven to find souls that were unrepentant. Is it possible for someone to make a decision or take action without taking any credit for him or herself? Of course! People (Christians included) can and do, every day. I do things all the time and give God all the credit. The idea that one can make a decision for Christ without the inward working of the Holy Spirit is ludicrous. I have never denied that and yes, it precedes the consummation of the beginning of the new relationship we have with God through Christ.
> 
> My friend, do me the courtesy of responding to the questions I posed in post #672. It serves no purpose to keep hammering away with the Calvinistic hard line. David prayed and wrote this: "Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation." All salvation comes from God. It is all the work of His love and grace. But, if I do not accept it as the free gift that it is, then I am still under condemnation. I don't have to "do something" to receive it; I just have to receive it.



I mean, gees, it's obedience on our part that we please our God. He wants us to surrender and repent, He calls us to action. He doesn't take our will away on that....that's about the only will we have. Unless we want to get into the sin we have because of our freewill....something I'd like to avoid.  He doesn't force me not to sin, I have free will, it's by His power I choose not to sin, not because He beat me into submission, but because I submitted to HIS will .

Great post GT


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> The balls in His court then.  No, wait,  He made the ball and the court and the rules.  Time to beg for mercy I guess.



No you don't need to beg for mercy. The mercy is there, you just need to accept it. I receive you Lord, I receive Your mercy and your grace.

It's not about begging, it's about accepting, which is your own choice, your own free will.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Not understanding your question here, but the way I read it, no.
> 
> 
> 
> Then everyone will be saved.*No, only the ones that believe John 3:16...the Bible clearly states that.*
> 
> 
> 
> You were spiritually dead.*How are the preselected spiritually dead? *
> 
> 
> 
> Without God's intervention, yes.*His intervention was ALL done on the cross.*
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where you confuse me. You say that you did nothing to merit God's grace but then you say that you had the ability to accept or reject it. If what separates you from those in he11 is your accepting or rejecting (a choice you made) then that is definitely something you did, is it not?*What does the Bible say about accepting Jesus who took the sins of the world on the cross?*
> 
> 
> 
> His glory is in the salvation of His people.*Well of course, it is, and His 'chosen' people are the Jews, the rest of us were invited to the party, He just needs an rsvp...does that help? If any are preselected it is the Jews. They refused Him, His ultimate glory will be shown thru the salvation of the Jews. He is offering us orphans a home in heaven with Him too, IF we believe what the Jews have to believe to be saved.*
> 
> 
> 
> No, and you are back to works again.*Well you either think you deserve to be chosen by God because of nothing you can do, or you can either obey what He tells us to do.....to believe that Jesus is who He says He is. We aren't saved like God had a lottery or anything, He gave us specific things we needed to do to be saved...and He wants for us to be saved, because we/He knew we couldn't do it, but because God would accept us if we had faith in His word that He would accept any of us who believe what He calls us to believe. *


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> Not understanding your question here, but the way I read it, no.
> 
> 
> 
> Then everyone will be saved.
> 
> 
> 
> You were spiritually dead.
> 
> 
> 
> Without God's intervention, yes.
> 
> 
> 
> Here is where you confuse me. You say that you did nothing to merit God's grace but then you say that you had the ability to accept or reject it. I'm not tooting my own horn. God gave me the ability to accept or reject. I never said that my ability to accept or reject came from anyone but God. I certainly didn't claim that ability originated in me.  If what separates you from those in he11 is your accepting or rejecting (a choice you made) then that is definitely something you did, is it not?
> 
> 
> 
> His glory is in the salvation of His people.
> 
> 
> 
> No, and you are back to works again.



I really think you are trying to be obtuse. Once and for all, why is it you think an act of the individual will (especially one prompted by the Holy Spirit) is a "work"? Over and over Scripture tells us to believe and be saved. Belief, then is not a "work". It can't be! Why? Because works can't save us, but belief unto salvation can.  We are also told to repent. Is that a "work"? We are told to confess, which means "to agree with what God has declared (revealed) about our sin condition. Again, a "work"? Apparently everything God has instructed us to do to have eternal life is wrong, according to you, because it involves our participation. 
I just don't know how to make it any plainer.


----------



## common man

Guys I was on here a while back and just wanted to add a few things man this thing has really turned into a massive posting, some really good stuff.

I just want all of you who struggle with or are curious about this to think about several things.

Isn't it interesting that some of the most vibrant times in our church history of evangelism were led by calvinists (Also by many that were not I know). I'm just saying did you relize that such names as Charles Spurgeon, Jonathon Edwards, and George Whitfield were calvinists.

Why are you a Christian when there are so many people more smarter than you who reject him? Do you really have any reason or thing to stand on for accepting him?

Didn't Jesus death on the cross actuaaly atone for sins? IF that salvation was only made possible and not actual Jesus death on the cross did not secure the salvation of one single person on this earth because it has to made actual by your decision.

If people die in their sins without accepting Christ, wouldn't you consider rejecting the son of God a sin? Christ died for that sin too.

I know it is a tough pill to swallow either way but God's glory is shown in both his grace and his justice.

Just keep in mind their is not some red rope like getting into the club and God saying nope not you. The whole point is we could care less about God or his love if he didn't go after us. We don't want him unless he goes after us.

There are some reaaly good resources out there if you are interested in hearing more I am attaching a short video by a guy named Paul Washer and another good resource would be www.desiringgod.org. IF you search under TULIP you will see like 9 videos from March of 2008 on the subject by John Piper. If you only listened to one of those listen to Message 6 which deals extensively with Romans 8 and Romans 9.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRGMp0md5CE

Anyhoo either way you stand let's all stay respectful to eachother. Ya'll have a blessed day.


----------



## gtparts

I appreciate your efforts on bringing clarity to this issue, but Charles Spurgeon, Jonathon Edwards, George Whitfield, Paul Washer, and John Piper are/were, hopefully, Christians first and Calvinists second. 

When the Word of God is preached, I will listen intently and hold what is said by men up against Scripture, itself, relying on the Holy Spirit to rightly divide the word of truth for me. 

When the word of Calvin is preached by men and it conflicts with Scripture, I can only relegate such talk to the trash heap. When the word of Calvin is preached and the Word of God sustains it, then I can embrace it. 

Some of what Calvin said and did, speaks against the very words of our Lord, Jesus. Some is "spot on". I am very intentional about "keeping the baby" and equally so, about "disposing of the bath water". 

One of the greatest travesties in Judeo-Christian history is the efforts of men to place yokes on others that God never intended. His burden is light and His yoke is easy.


----------



## common man

Good clarification I agree with all you said.


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> I really think you are trying to be obtuse.



And I clearly understand why you would think that. I must speak in such a way so that folks won't confuse me with others.




gtparts said:


> Once and for all, why is it you think an act of the individual will (especially one prompted by the Holy Spirit) is a "work"? Over and over Scripture tells us to believe and be saved. Belief, then is not a "work". It can't be!



Where does that belief come from?

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Romans 3:11)

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)

If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (John 15:19)

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)

Again, "Salvation is of the Lord." I had no part in my salvation. I was not looking for it, I did not want it, I did not need it. But God (there you go) in eternity, before the world began, chose to be gracious to me.


----------



## stringmusic

gemcgrew said:


> And I clearly understand why you would think that. I must speak in such a way so that folks won't confuse me with others.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where does that belief come from?
> 
> There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Romans 3:11)
> 
> But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)
> 
> If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (John 15:19)
> 
> And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)
> 
> Again, "Salvation is of the Lord." I had no part in my salvation. I was not looking for it, I did not want it, I did not need it. But God (there you go) in eternity, before the world began, chose to be gracious to me*... and everyone else who has ever lived.*



Fixed it for ya.


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> And I clearly understand why you would think that. I must speak in such a way so that folks won't confuse me with others.
> 
> That's not likely to happen.
> 
> 
> Where does that belief come from?
> 
> From God. I thought I made that clear long ago. We are in agreement on that point.
> 
> There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (Romans 3:11)
> 
> Agreed. Paul is talking about lost folks. The saved are not included in this passage.
> 
> But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)
> 
> Agreed. I particularly like the part about "the things of the Spirit of God" being "spiritually discerned." Discerned by whom? By God? No, He obviously has that down pat! Then, it must be the spiritual man, 'cause it ain't the natural man. So, it is the spiritual man that discerns. This discernment comes from God. The discerning, spiritual man, is then able, not forced, but able to receive "the things of the Spirit of God".
> 
> 
> If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. (John 15:19)
> 
> Again, agreed.
> 
> And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. (John 6:65)
> 
> No argument there, either.
> 
> Again, "Salvation is of the Lord." I had no part in my salvation. I was not looking for it, I did not want it, I did not need it. But God (there you go) in eternity, before the world began, chose to be gracious to me.



"Salvation is of the Lord." Agreed, again!

But, you understand this to mean that you have no part in your salvation, while I understand this as saying God is the source and benefactor of all salvation, who makes salvation available to "whomsoever". 

Let me close by asking whether at any point did you receive, accept, respond, confess, repent. Did God receive for you? Accept for you? Respond for you? Confess in your behalf? Repent for you? No, He simply and graciously enabled you (and me and every other saint) to do so.


----------



## The Foreigner

WOW - are we still going on this one!

CALVINIST ALERT - I AM ONE!!!: Here goes.

1. Calvinists do believe that when someone comes to faith, BY NECESSITY, they HAVE made a decision and they HAVE exercised their will.
2. Some hyper-calvinists will argue that to "make a decision" is then to saved by works, against which Paul clearly teaches in Rom 3:21ff and many other passages/ 
3. However, this kind of Calvinist will then struggle to make sense of the "repent and believe" passages, of which there are many in Scripture - God commands us to do something, does He not? YES. 

1. The Arminian (opposite of Calvininst) believes man's will is free and able to "invite Jesus into my heart", language by the way, which is never  found in Scripture. 
2. He believes that man's nature is not corrupt and therefore he has the ability / capacity to rationally make that decision for salvation.
3. The arminian, then like the Calvinist, has some tricky passages to explain away: Eph 2 man is "dead in tresapsses and sins" not "just a bit wounded" but spiritually dead. Why does a man need to be born again if he can believe himself. Being born is a passive act  - being born from above is something God does for us, is it not? Being born again is not being saved _per se, it is the doctrine of regeneration (see Ezek 36, 37, John 3) Man must be born again to receive faith, which again according to Paul is a gift of God (Eph 2:8) not a decision by man.

So then... how do we understand predestination and election, both biblical terms by the way, and the command to repent and believe, also biblical terms.

Well - in answer to Annie's original question "who are the elect?" - the simple answer is only God knows. Do any of us know for sure that the person in front of us will come to faith - NO! Only God knows.  So God knows who are his as he tells Paul in Acts18:9-10. 

But he also tells Paul in the same passage - to go on preaching boldly, because there are many people who are yet to come to faith in that city, yet they already belong to God.  And thus as a Calvinist and a preacher of the gospel, I do just that. Every week in the church I serve, I preach the gospel of "repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ". Why? Because God calls me to do it  first of all; second he tells us in Romans 10 that people will not be saved unless they hear the gospel: so preaching, witnessing, evangelsim etc is the instrument and not the cause of salvation. It is that which God uses to bring people to faith. And yes people MUST BELIEVE, if they don't they are not saved. Simple As.

Do they have the capacity to make that decision of themselves - Paul says no - "dead in trespasses". God awakens, regenerates them - they are born from above / again so that they might be able to receive the gift of faith. How do they receive it? Without a will? As A robot? Did God just hit the enter key?  Does God believe for us? (No God does not need to believe)  NO NO NO. They believe by God straightening out a bent and twisted will so that man, caused by God, does make a decision to rest on and receive Jesus Christ. So Gos is the cause and man is an instrument, putting it simply. Both are active. 

A Calvinist that denies the will in the matter of faith, does not understand the matters of causes and instruments, nor does he understand the doctrine of regeneration (I have met a few like that). 

An Arminian that asserts free will as the CAUSE of salvation (note the difference between Cause and Instrument) has not sufficiently understood Scripture's witness on the nature of man, nor faith as a gift, nor grace.

I think that is as simple as I can put it. I hope I have not offended anyone, that was not my intention.  This discussion needs the heat taken out of it, and the light switch turned on - that is my intention, however successful I may have been. I'd be glad to answer any questions.

Peace._


----------



## common man

The Foreigner said:


> WOW - are we still going on this one!
> 
> CALVINIST ALERT - I AM ONE!!!: Here goes.
> 
> 1. Calvinists do believe that when someone comes to faith, BY NECESSITY, they HAVE made a decision and they HAVE exercised their will.
> 2. Some hyper-calvinists will argue that to "make a decision" is then to saved by works, against which Paul clearly teaches in Rom 3:21ff and many other passages/
> 3. However, this kind of Calvinist will then struggle to make sense of the "repent and believe" passages, of which there are many in Scripture - God commands us to do something, does He not? YES.
> 
> 1. The Arminian (opposite of Calvininst) believes man's will is free and able to "invite Jesus into my heart", language by the way, which is never  found in Scripture.
> 2. He believes that man's nature is not corrupt and therefore he has the ability / capacity to rationally make that decision for salvation.
> 3. The arminian, then like the Calvinist, has some tricky passages to explain away: Eph 2 man is "dead in tresapsses and sins" not "just a bit wounded" but spiritually dead. Why does a man need to be born again if he can believe himself. Being born is a passive act  - being born from above is something God does for us, is it not? Being born again is not being saved _per se, it is the doctrine of regeneration (see Ezek 36, 37, John 3) Man must be born again to receive faith, which again according to Paul is a gift of God (Eph 2:8) not a decision by man.
> 
> So then... how do we understand predestination and election, both biblical terms by the way, and the command to repent and believe, also biblical terms.
> 
> Well - in answer to Annie's original question "who are the elect?" - the simple answer is only God knows. Do any of us know for sure that the person in front of us will come to faith - NO! Only God knows.  So God knows who are his as he tells Paul in Acts18:9-10.
> 
> But he also tells Paul in the same passage - to go on preaching boldly, because there are many people who are yet to come to faith in that city, yet they already belong to God.  And thus as a Calvinist and a preacher of the gospel, I do just that. Every week in the church I serve, I preach the gospel of "repent and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ". Why? Because God calls me to do it  first of all; second he tells us in Romans 10 that people will not be saved unless they hear the gospel: so preaching, witnessing, evangelsim etc is the instrument and not the cause of salvation. It is that which God uses to bring people to faith. And yes people MUST BELIEVE, if they don't they are not saved. Simple As.
> 
> Do they have the capacity to make that decision of themselves - Paul says no - "dead in trespasses". God awakens, regenerates them - they are born from above / again so that they might be able to receive the gift of faith. How do they receive it? Without a will? As A robot? Did God just hit the enter key?  Does God believe for us? (No God does not need to believe)  NO NO NO. They believe by God straightening out a bent and twisted will so that man, caused by God, does make a decision to rest on and receive Jesus Christ. So Gos is the cause and man is an instrument, putting it simply. Both are active.
> 
> A Calvinist that denies the will in the matter of faith, does not understand the matters of causes and instruments, nor does he understand the doctrine of regeneration (I have met a few like that).
> 
> An Arminian that asserts free will as the CAUSE of salvation (note the difference between Cause and Instrument) has not sufficiently understood Scripture's witness on the nature of man, nor faith as a gift, nor grace.
> 
> I think that is as simple as I can put it. I hope I have not offended anyone, that was not my intention.  This discussion needs the heat taken out of it, and the light switch turned on - that is my intention, however successful I may have been. I'd be glad to answer any questions.
> 
> Peace._


_

Good explanation._


----------



## StriperAddict

gtparts said:


> One of the greatest travesties in Judeo-Christian history is the efforts of men to place yokes on others that God never intended. His burden is light and His yoke is easy.


 
Agreed. I am finding more and more each day that the end of the gospel is for the believer to enjoy the Lord while Christ does His work thru him/her, with no (flesh) effort on our part. This, I'm sure, drives a lot of 'works' believers crazy, but who really wants a smile on face, sad eyes, and no one wants what ya got!

Some reasons to start:  Faith and Repentance are both gifts:

*Ephesians 2:8*
For by grace you have been saved through *faith*; and that not of yourselves, it is the *gift* of God

*Acts 5:31
Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 11:18
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

*

Perhaps "Positional holiness" sick is a topic for another thread...


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> Let me close by asking whether at any point did you receive, accept, respond, confess, repent.



Of coarse! A result of life given. Not how life was acquired.

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"(1 Corinthians 4:7)




gtparts said:


> Did God receive for you? Accept for you? Respond for you? Confess in your behalf? Repent for you?



Purposed and brought about by God.

"For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"(Isaiah 14:27)


----------



## common man

StriperAddict said:


> Agreed. I am finding more and more each day that the end of the gospel is for the believer to enjoy the Lord while Christ does His work thru him/her, with no (flesh) effort on our part. This, I'm sure, drives a lot of 'works' believers crazy, but who really wants a smile on face, sad eyes, and no one wants what ya got!
> 
> Some reasons to start:  Faith and Repentance are both gifts:
> 
> *Ephesians 2:8*
> For by grace you have been saved through *faith*; and that not of yourselves, it is the *gift* of God
> 
> *Acts 5:31
> Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
> 
> Acts 11:18
> When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
> 
> *
> 
> Perhaps "Positional holiness" sick is a topic for another thread...



A helpful one for me also has been

2 timothy 2 verse 25


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> Of coarse! A result of life given. Not how life was acquired.
> 
> "For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?"(1 Corinthians 4:7)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Purposed and brought about by God.
> 
> "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?"(Isaiah 14:27)



Thank you. We agree on the fact that God is ultimately the origin and very source. We just disagree on His methodology, the "how" of the matter. I see Scripture describing a process where God provides everything and makes it possible for us to understand our lost, sin nature and His solution. I believe that God seeks and makes it possible, even desires, that we respond to Him as Lord and Savior. I believe, with my whole heart, soul, and mind, that God calls men to His salvation, through a decision, enabled by Him, and chosen by us, for us to confess His will and deny our own will and ........

I believe Calvinism has closed more doors to the lost than it has ever opened. For 1500 years people became followers of Christ. Then, in the course of 50+ years, Calvin was able to create such division and enmity that it has continued to be a "bone of contention" for 400 years. How can anyone see that as a life lived for Christ or His church universal? Not only is there disagreement between Catholic and Reformed Protestant, but there is also disagreement between Protestant and Reform Protestant. As it is, I'll place my confidence in Christ alone. I am called to newness of life in Christ, not factions that identify with Calvin or in Calvin, himself.

All that aside, I pray that you and yours fully celebrate the birth of Christ today, in the coming weeks, and always.


----------



## The Foreigner

gtparts said:


> Thank you. We agree on the fact that God is ultimately the origin and very source. We just disagree on His methodology, the "how" of the matter. I see Scripture describing a process where God provides everything and makes it possible for us to understand our lost, sin nature and His solution. I believe that God seeks and makes it possible, even desires, that we respond to Him as Lord and Savior. I believe, with my whole heart, soul, and mind, that God calls men to His salvation, through a decision, enabled by Him, and chosen by us, for us to confess His will and deny our own will and ........
> 
> I believe Calvinism has closed more doors to the lost than it has ever opened. For 1500 years people became followers of Christ. Then, in the course of 50+ years, Calvin was able to create such division and enmity that it has continued to be a "bone of contention" for 400 years. How can anyone see that as a life lived for Christ or His church universal? Not only is there disagreement between Catholic and Reformed Protestant, but there is also disagreement between Protestant and Reform Protestant. As it is, I'll place my confidence in Christ alone. I am called to newness of life in Christ, not factions that identify with Calvin or in Calvin, himself.
> 
> All that aside, I pray that you and yours fully celebrate the birth of Christ today, in the coming weeks, and always.



Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings: you just don't know your church history, whether you are reformed or not, it matters not.  The disagreement between Catholic and Protestant are matters of the gospel, not in-house issues. It is the same issue that Paul dealt with in Galatians. 

Concerning affiliation: I agree with you in part. Calling myself a Calvinist is not something I particularly like actually. I belong to Christ also. But we do use terms like Calvinist, Arminian, Trinitarian etc to more easily denote our theological position. In fact they more accurately denote a position than saying - I belong to Christ. That is now so broad it has almost become worthless _as a theological idenitifer. _ Just look at the number of denominations that claim to belong to Christ, and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## gtparts

The Foreigner said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings: you just don't know your church history, whether you are reformed or not, it matters not.  The disagreement between Catholic and Protestant are matters of the gospel, not in-house issues. It is the same issue that Paul dealt with in Galatians.
> 
> Concerning affiliation: I agree with you in part. Calling myself a Calvinist is not something I particularly like actually. I belong to Christ also. But we do use terms like Calvinist, Arminian, Trinitarian etc to more easily denote our theological position. In fact they more accurately denote a position than saying - I belong to Christ. That is now so broad it has almost become worthless _as a theological idenitifer. _ Just look at the number of denominations that claim to belong to Christ, and you'll see what I mean.



Just my poor attempt at summarizing differences that many allow some to separate themselves from others. While unity is desirable, even necessary, it does not demand homogeneity. As parts of the body of Christ, we should all seek to live harmoniously, though some are "eyes", some "ears", and some "feet". 

As for _a theological identifier, _I usually don't concern myself with labels. For me, _I belong to Christ _describes a relationship. If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny, how so many build their house on the Rock, but so quickly are willing to relocate it to sand.
Please, keep Calvin, and gladly. I find more than a little about Calvin's life and theology to be opposed to Scripture, as I am sure he would find that true of mine, also. I stand (or fall) on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, not on what Calvin thinks about God.

May the peace that comes from Him be with you.


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## The Foreigner

gtparts said:


> Just my poor attempt at summarizing differences that many allow some to separate themselves from others. While unity is desirable, even necessary, it does not demand homogeneity. As parts of the body of Christ, we should all seek to live harmoniously, though some are "eyes", some "ears", and some "feet".
> 
> As for _a theological identifier, _I usually don't concern myself with labels. For me, _I belong to Christ _describes a relationship. If it wasn't so serious, it would be funny, how so many build their house on the Rock, but so quickly are willing to relocate it to sand.
> Please, keep Calvin, and gladly. I find more than a little about Calvin's life and theology to be opposed to Scripture, as I am sure he would find that true of mine, also. I stand (or fall) on the work of Jesus Christ on the cross, not on what Calvin thinks about God.
> 
> May the peace that comes from Him be with you.



My peace is in the Solid Rock on whom I stand (that's Jesus not Calvin) all other ground is sinking sand.  I think you missed the point about theological identifiers by the way.
Peace.


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## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings: you just don't know your church history, whether you are reformed or not, it matters not.  The disagreement between Catholic and Protestant are matters of the gospel, not in-house issues. It is the same issue that Paul dealt with in Galatians.
> 
> Concerning affiliation: I agree with you in part. Calling myself a Calvinist is not something I particularly like actually. I belong to Christ also. But we do use terms like Calvinist, Arminian, Trinitarian etc to more easily denote our theological position. In fact they more accurately denote a position than saying - I belong to Christ. That is now so broad it has almost become worthless _as a theological idenitifer. _ Just look at the number of denominations that claim to belong to Christ, and you'll see what I mean.



I actually am part calvinist and arminian also....I disagree with some of each, also.  I don't believe part of the tulip doctrine.

I do believe that Christ died for all of us, whoever believes that Christ is who He says He is, and to tell anyone, that their acceptance will not save them, they are either prechosen already and nothing they can say or do will change that, is a huge stumbling block and could keep someone from submitting to God because they think IF they are saved/chosen, God will let them know.

I do agree that God already knows who and who will not be saved, I just don't  agree that He picked and chose us to be saved or perish by His own hand. I think He offered us a gift and all we have to do is take/believe/accept/admit/trust in it.


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## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> Thank you. We agree on the fact that God is ultimately the origin and very source. We just disagree on His methodology, the "how" of the matter. I see Scripture describing a process where God provides everything and makes it possible for us to understand our lost, sin nature and His solution. I believe that God seeks and makes it possible, even desires, that we respond to Him as Lord and Savior. I believe, with my whole heart, soul, and mind, that God calls men to His salvation, through a decision, enabled by Him, and chosen by us, for us to confess His will and deny our own will and ........
> 
> I believe Calvinism has closed more doors to the lost than it has ever opened. For 1500 years people became followers of Christ. Then, in the course of 50+ years, Calvin was able to create such division and enmity that it has continued to be a "bone of contention" for 400 years. How can anyone see that as a life lived for Christ or His church universal? Not only is there disagreement between Catholic and Reformed Protestant, but there is also disagreement between Protestant and Reform Protestant. As it is, I'll place my confidence in Christ alone. I am called to newness of life in Christ, not factions that identify with Calvin or in Calvin, himself.



Take our friend Ambush....he could perish believing his own will was not needed in accepting Christ.....per Calvin, you're chosen or not.....rather than, per God,for whoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have ever lasting life. 

Us believing is using our own will to do so, God doesn't make us believe, He asks us to believe, but we have to accept/say yes.  His will is for all of us to be saved, Bible says so, He knows all of us won't, but He does not choose for people to perish by His choice, if in fact He does, then my whole interpretation of my salvation is going to change.


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## The Foreigner

mtnwoman said:


> I actually am part calvinist and arminian also....I disagree with some of each, also.  I don't believe part of the tulip doctrine.
> 
> I do believe that Christ died for all of us, whoever believes that Christ is who He says He is, and to tell anyone, that their acceptance will not save them, they are either prechosen already and nothing they can say or do will change that, is a huge stumbling block and could keep someone from submitting to God because they think IF they are saved/chosen, God will let them know.
> 
> I do agree that God already knows who and who will not be saved, I just don't  agree that He picked and chose us to be saved or perish by His own hand. I think He offered us a gift and all we have to do is take/believe/accept/admit/trust in it.



Sure I think that is one of the misunderstandings on both sides of this coin. We don't tell people that they their acceptance of Christ can't save them, unless they want to see acceptance as a work (Rom 3:21). And when we preach the gospel, we do so telling them to repent and believe - I'm very careful to explain to them that they really beleive but that God is behind their decision. Does that make sense?

However, when Scriptre is speaking more about election and or man's nature: I clearly explain the "Deadnes" of man's nature. I also show it is not up to man to regenerate himself, yet God still calls him to believe, because exercising his desires / will is an instrument God uses to save people.  Does that make sense too?  

Don't make the mistake of thinking that people like me squeeze all of God's sovereignty and all of man's repsonisbility into every single sermon - no i just preach what is in the text before me: if it's repent and believe  - that's what you'll get.

Peace


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## mtnwoman

It's not usn's (we that are saved) that matters to me about being prechosen or not, our stance on that is not salvation rendering, as I've said before.

I do believe however to tell an unbeliever that they have a 50/50 chance of being saved is what weighs on my heart. And if you are a tulip believer, to be honest with the unbeliever you have to tell them that or beat around the bush and not give them the truth.  I would not be holding a lightening rod at the time I told someone that Jesus did not die for all of us, He only died for the prechosen saved.


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## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> Sure I think that is one of the misunderstandings on both sides of this coin. We don't tell people that they their acceptance of Christ can't save them, unless they want to see acceptance as a work (Rom 3:21). And when we preach the gospel, we do so telling them to repent and believe - I'm very careful to explain to them that they really beleive but that God is behind their decision. Does that make sense?
> 
> However, when Scriptre is speaking more about election and or man's nature: I clearly explain the "Deadnes" of man's nature. I also show it is not up to man to regenerate himself, yet God still calls him to believe, because exercising his desires / will is an instrument God uses to save people.  Does that make sense too?
> 
> Don't make the mistake of thinking that people like me squeeze all of God's sovereignty and all of man's repsonisbility into every single sermon - no i just preach what is in the text before me: if it's repent and believe  - that's what you'll get.
> 
> Peace



Yeah it makes sense, I think...lol....

I guess the only part I don't agree with that I started this thread about, is that God preselected us into salvation.

What do we need all that scripture for, if we are already chosen or not? That's the part that doesn't make sense to me. Why don't we just get on up out of here? Nothing is going to change, we can't change someones mind if God has not chosen them. God's just watching us run in circles trying to get people saved that He hasn't even chosen, and why do the chosen that are not saved yet, need my 2cents if it's all up to God anyway....if He calls us to the great commission that leads me to believe that we are to carry the gospel to the unsaved in hopes they will be saved, and why waste our time on that if God already has us picked and chosen?

Accepting or denying is man's free will....we don't need to try to change the mind of someone who denys Christ if ultimately he is preselected to be saved??? That's what makes no sense to me.

And the tulip believers will say, well we don't know who's chosen so we need to preach the gospel to them....why? they are preselected and chosen....and why do they need to accept if God's will has already overriden their will? Just makes no sense to me at all.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I do believe however to tell an unbeliever that they have a 50/50 chance of being saved is what weighs on my heart.



I personally have never heard anyone say that man has a 50/50 chance of being saved. I do know that there will be a great multitude in heaven. At the same time, I know that in this world at any time there is but a remnant. There are few to whom the strait gate is revealed.



mtnwoman said:


> I would not be holding a lightening rod at the time I told someone that Jesus did not die for all of us, He only died for the prechosen saved.



If Jesus died for all, then all will be saved or He FAILED in His endeavor to save all. None deserve salvation! Praise God that He chose to save some! Not one that Christ died for will perish!


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I personally have never heard anyone say that man has a 50/50 chance of being saved. I do know that there will be a great multitude in heaven. At the same time, I know that in this world at any time there is but a remnant. There are few to whom the strait gate is revealed.  *I just used 50/50 as an example....I'm sure the exact amount that you think have and have not been chosen could be broken down into a percent of some sort. I'd say for most people that go to church that strait gate/right path/only way has been revealed. It's up to us to take it or not...God offers us salvation thru the cross, we can take the straight and narrow or ignore/decline. Honestly don't you think most people in the USA have some sort of knowledge about the Gospel, even if they aren't saved? I know I've debated plenty who know all about it but still decline, they aren't deaf and or blind to it, they may be dead to it, but they know about it. By their own free will they reject the gift, they aren't ignorant of it.*
> 
> 
> 
> If Jesus died for all, then all will be saved or He FAILED in His endeavor to save all. None deserve salvation! Praise God that He chose to save some! Not one that Christ died for will perish! *Scripture doesn't say that though, it says that Jesus died for all and whosoever believeth will be saved, obviously leaving the rest to perish who do not believe, even though Christ died for them. Show me the scripture that says, 'not one that Christ died for will perish'.*



I was not saved based on that doctrine, were you? 

I was saved based on, Jesus loves me and died in my place for my sins, and I could accept or decline. I could die in sin or live in Him....that and John 3:16.

No one ever told me nor have I ever told anyone... 'well just go ahead and believe that you're going to heaven, but be aware that you may not be chosen and you'll go to hades'.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> If Jesus died for all, then all will be saved or He FAILED in His endeavor to save all. None deserve salvation! Praise God that He chose to save some! Not one that Christ died for will perish!




Ok, if that is true, then why are we called to the great commission to preach the gospel? If you're chosen you'll be saved no matter what and if you're not chosen you'll perish. Couldn't we be doing something else, like spending more time feeding the hungry children? If there's nothing any of us can do, what are we doing running around witnessing? other than God told us to...but I'm pretty sure there was a reason behind that.


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## hummerpoo

Boy do I hate to get in to this, but the defining question for me has not been posed or directly addressed (or maybe I missed it).

Is God's sovereignty limited?  If it has limits, is He God?
If it is unlimited then He has sovereignty over the will of men (which I find supported in Scripture).


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## The Foreigner

mtnwoman said:


> Ok, if that is true, then why are we called to the great commission to preach the gospel? If you're chosen you'll be saved no matter what and if you're not chosen you'll perish. Couldn't we be doing something else, like spending more time feeding the hungry children? If there's nothing any of us can do, what are we doing running around witnessing? other than God told us to...but I'm pretty sure there was a reason behind that.



You are mistaking election with fatalism. Election is simply a choice - God does not work without means (I mean he can, because he's God) but he has told us the WAY ELECTION IS WORKED OUT, IS BY THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED AND PEOPLE BELIEVING. We all know salvation doesn't just happen - I'm not sitting at home smoking pot and watching pornography and I suddenly just become a Christian.  No God uses his Word and SPirit both to bring wills into conformity with his own. That gives me great confidence as a preacher, for I know God has ordained the means by which his sovereign choice is outworked - by the preaching of the gospel. 

It doesn't just happen - that's what you getting hung up on. It happens by means - the cause is God, the means are to be used by us. Does that make more sense?

Peace.


----------



## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> You are mistaking election with fatalism. Election is simply a choice - God does not work without means (I mean he can, because he's God) but he has told us the WAY ELECTION IS WORKED OUT, IS BY THE GOSPEL BEING PREACHED AND PEOPLE BELIEVING. We all know salvation doesn't just happen - I'm not sitting at home smoking pot and watching pornography and I suddenly just become a Christian.  No God uses his Word and SPirit both to bring wills into conformity with his own. That gives me great confidence as a preacher, for I know God has ordained the means by which his sovereign choice is outworked - by the preaching of the gospel.
> 
> It doesn't just happen - that's what you getting hung up on. It happens by means - the cause is God, the means are to be used by us. Does that make more sense?*If we're preselected why wouldn't it just happen, I thought we couldn't do anything, we only had to be elected....we can't say yes, we can't accept, we can't do anything because we are taking the credit for our own salvation according to gems and others who are tulip believers. If I say I accept you Jesus, and go home and tell my mama, that means I'm taking credit for saving myself, because nothing we do has anything to do with our salvation, God either picks us or He doesn't according to the tulip doctrine. *
> 
> Peace.



I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything. I don't think it just happens. According to the tulip believers, it just happens because you are chosen and you WILL be saved no matter what, nothing you can do or nothing you have to do, you are prechosen.  And the ones that are not chosen don't need the gospel, do they? They have been chosen not to be saved. Of course we don't know who they are, but God does and He's in control of who does or doesn't get saved, right? He preselected them, right? Jesus didn't die for everyone, just the chosen? right? We can't tell everyone that Jesus died for anyone that accepts Him, because He only died for the chosen. right?

If God has prechosen the ones He wants to save, and since we're dead and we don't have a will of our own to do anything then how do we achieve salvation, especially if Christ didn't die for all of us?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> If God has prechosen the ones He wants to save, and since we're dead and we don't have a will of our own to do anything then how do we achieve salvation, especially if Christ didn't die for all of us?



You don't and can't, but God can and does.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Is God's sovereignty limited?  If it has limits, is He God?
> If it is unlimited then He has sovereignty over the will of men (which I find supported in Scripture).



When you boil it all down you will find that is the issue.  An issue that goes all the way back to the Garden.


----------



## The Foreigner

mtnwoman said:


> It's not usn's (we that are saved) that matters to me about being prechosen or not, our stance on that is not salvation rendering, as I've said before.
> 
> I do believe however to tell an unbeliever that they have a 50/50 chance of being saved is what weighs on my heart. And if you are a tulip believer, to be honest with the unbeliever you have to tell them that or beat around the bush and not give them the truth.  I would not be holding a lightening rod at the time I told someone that Jesus did not die for all of us, He only died for the prechosen saved.



I'm afraid you are wide of the mark here - you've really  misunderstood the biblical teaching of election and responsibility. I don't tell anyone they've got a 50/50 chance of salvation! How could anyone say that, and if you draw that inference from what I've said, you've misunderstood my posts.

Here it is again: I have no idea what "chance of salvation" anyone has, neither do you actually. To say such is to say we know the mind of God. Being pre-chosen, which is a real stumbling block for you, i understand, has no implication on how we present the gospel. We tell them what Christ told them: repent and believe. Simple as. I find that people who want to meditate on election and who are unbelievers use it as an excuse for unbelief. That will not wash with God. No man will get to the judgment seat and be "let off" because he tells God - "hey God it was your choice, I had no choice"! He will reply "you have Moses and the Prophets, and the Gospel which warned you to flee from the wrath to come".  Election is not usually part of the gospel presentation.

I'll happily tell people Jesus died for the elect, becuase that's what Scripture says - read John 10 - very clear. Because no man has God's mind on this matter, in that we don't know who the elect are - so we sow the seed of the gospel before all men, and let God be God.

I think mtnwoman, if you are not prepared to look at the Scriptures on this matter, those I and others have raised, then you'll never get to the heart of the matter. Your posts are largely the product of logic and not study, and on this one human logic will get us into trouble. Go back to the text and look - if there is no such things as election or predestination why is Scripture full of its teaching: Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13, 1 Pet 1:2, 2 Pet 1:10, Rom 9-11, Rom 8:30.  If there is no such things a the depravity of man why is Scripture full of its teaching - Gen 6:5, 8:21; Rom 5:12, 1 Cor 2:14 (THAT ONE IS HUGE!!!); Eph 2:2-3;  and if we are not "Dead in trespasses and sins" how is it that Scripture tells us that it is God who works in us, not out own decision that is the CAUSE (it is the instrument) of coming to faith - scripture says this again: JOhn 15:16, John 6:44, Eph 2:8. Rom 3:21 and so on.

Does God use our wills - YES AGAIN I AFFIRM HE DOES. Does he believe for us - NO HE DOESN'T.
Does he cause us to beleive - YES HE DOES.
Do we need to be born again? YES - this is the greatest evidence of God working in us - being born "from above" is being born of God - are you active in your own birth - no you are passive.

I hope this helps. Please read the texts  - I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.

Blessings and Peace.


----------



## The Foreigner

mtnwoman said:


> I don't think I'm misunderstanding anything. I don't think it just happens. According to the tulip believers, it just happens because you are chosen and you WILL be saved no matter what, nothing you can do or nothing you have to do, you are prechosen.  And the ones that are not chosen don't need the gospel, do they? They have been chosen not to be saved. Of course we don't know who they are, but God does and He's in control of who does or doesn't get saved, right? He preselected them, right? Jesus didn't die for everyone, just the chosen? right? We can't tell everyone that Jesus died for anyone that accepts Him, because He only died for the chosen. right?
> 
> If God has prechosen the ones He wants to save, and since we're dead and we don't have a will of our own to do anything then how do we achieve salvation, especially if Christ didn't die for all of us?



Mtnwoman - you are misrepresenting us - I have told you many times now - it doesn't just happen. That's where you are wrong. God operates with means. Don't misrepresent us please - we are the ones who are holding out the means that God has given by which souls are saved. That's why we preach, because God tells us souls will be saved - OR hardened by the gospel. Read John 9:39 - the gospel opens AND closes eyes, at least that what Jesus said he came to do.
Peace.


----------



## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> Mtnwoman - you are misrepresenting us - I have told you many times now - it doesn't just happen. That's where you are wrong. God operates with means. Don't misrepresent us please - we are the ones who are holding out the means that God has given by which souls are saved. That's why we preach, because God tells us souls will be saved - OR hardened by the gospel. Read John 9:39 - the gospel opens AND closes eyes, at least that what Jesus said he came to do.
> Peace.



Maybe I am misinterpreting what you're saying. Let me ask you these questions if you don't mind and I'll try to get on the same page with you.....and I'd appreciate answers from Gems, too. 

Do you believe that Jesus died for everyone...or basically for the sins of the world?

Do you believe that God gave His Son for anyone who will believe?  All Jews and Gentiles alike?

Do you believe we are prechosen by God before the foundation of the world to be saved or to perish?
I know you believe as I do that God already knows who will and won't be saved, but do you believe it's by His choice(preselected) who is saved and not by our choice in believing or accepting?

We know we cannot be saved without Him, but do you think He gives us a choice, or rather gives ALL of the world a choice or just a preselected few?


----------



## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> I'm afraid you are wide of the mark here - you've really  misunderstood the biblical teaching of election and responsibility. I don't tell anyone they've got a 50/50 chance of salvation! How could anyone say that, and if you draw that inference from what I've said, you've misunderstood my posts.
> 
> Here it is again: I have no idea what "chance of salvation" anyone has, neither do you actually. To say such is to say we know the mind of God. Being pre-chosen, which is a real stumbling block for you, i understand, has no implication on how we present the gospel. We tell them what Christ told them: repent and believe. Simple as. I find that people who want to meditate on election and who are unbelievers use it as an excuse for unbelief. That will not wash with God. No man will get to the judgment seat and be "let off" because he tells God - "hey God it was your choice, I had no choice"! He will reply "you have Moses and the Prophets, and the Gospel which warned you to flee from the wrath to come".  Election is not usually part of the gospel presentation.
> 
> I'll happily tell people Jesus died for the elect, becuase that's what Scripture says - read John 10 - very clear. Because no man has God's mind on this matter, in that we don't know who the elect are - so we sow the seed of the gospel before all men, and let God be God.
> 
> I think mtnwoman, if you are not prepared to look at the Scriptures on this matter, those I and others have raised, then you'll never get to the heart of the matter. Your posts are largely the product of logic and not study, and on this one human logic will get us into trouble. Go back to the text and look - if there is no such things as election or predestination why is Scripture full of its teaching: Eph 1:4; 2 Thess 2:13, 1 Pet 1:2, 2 Pet 1:10, Rom 9-11, Rom 8:30.  If there is no such things a the depravity of man why is Scripture full of its teaching - Gen 6:5, 8:21; Rom 5:12, 1 Cor 2:14 (THAT ONE IS HUGE!!!); Eph 2:2-3;  and if we are not "Dead in trespasses and sins" how is it that Scripture tells us that it is God who works in us, not out own decision that is the CAUSE (it is the instrument) of coming to faith - scripture says this again: JOhn 15:16, John 6:44, Eph 2:8. Rom 3:21 and so on.
> 
> Does God use our wills - YES AGAIN I AFFIRM HE DOES. Does he believe for us - NO HE DOESN'T.
> Does he cause us to beleive - YES HE DOES.
> Do we need to be born again? YES - this is the greatest evidence of God working in us - being born "from above" is being born of God - are you active in your own birth - no you are passive.
> 
> I hope this helps. Please read the texts  - I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about.
> 
> Blessings and Peace.



I guess because I've been debating some with gems, I'm getting conflicting answers from two people who claim to believe the same thing. Gems says if we claim/choose to believe or do anything of our free will that we are taking credit for saving ourselves. Have you read all of his posts?


----------



## mtnwoman

The Foreigner said:


> Does God use our wills - YES AGAIN I AFFIRM HE DOES. Does he believe for us - NO HE DOESN'T.
> Does he cause us to beleive - YES HE DOES.
> Do we need to be born again? YES - this is the greatest evidence of God working in us - being born "from above" is being born of God - are you active in your own birth - no you are passive.



All that I agree with. Jesus knocked on my heart, I let Him in and believed. I was born again, baptized and believe that all that is a gift from God, nothing that I did to deserve/earn/comprehend it. But I do believe there is an action on our part that is required....and that isn't taking credit for my salvation as gems says, when I chose to believe. 

Again, the part that I have a hard time with is that God preselected us to be saved, which means according to Gems, that Jesus did not die for everyone only the preselected.

And of course I get using hindsight, that in the end, that the ones that are saved are the  ones He died for. But His intention on the cross was for all to be saved not a preselected few chosen by God before the foundation of the world. We don't all have equal rights in believing in other words.  I have a hard time with telling my neighbor that if God has chosen you to be saved you will be. I just don't see that in the gospel anywhere....that it's God that choses us, we cannot chose Him.


----------



## The Foreigner

mtnwoman said:


> I guess because I've been debating some with gems, I'm getting conflicting answers from two people who claim to believe the same thing. Gems says if we claim/choose to believe or do anything of our free will that we are taking credit for saving ourselves. Have you read all of his posts?



Right, I understand gems point and there is truth to it. But, it is also a truth that the will of man is used, causally by God, and instrumentally by man in salvation. Put it this way, and I'm pretty sure gem would agree with this: do you beleive or does God believe for you. No you believe, but wholly and completely under his influence and power.

So I maintian, as Jonah said "salvation is of the Lord", but I also want people to know that God puts the responsibility of believing on the individual - as far as I can tell he never says "I'll repent and believe for you" - no he says "repent and believe". So do you believe - if you are of faith the answer is yes - it is really and truly you, your will believing - but you are caused by God to believe, you (for you , read "we") don't have the capacity to believe. Our will is never free - previously it is a slave to sin, and when re-born we are slaves to righteousness. That is the tendencey of our wills.

Does that make sense?

The real sticking point is the idea that Jesus didn't die for everyone. John 10 is quite clear for whom he died - his sheep. He then tells some JEws that they do not believe, because they are not his sheep (notice the order there). It's hard and unpopular, but those were Jesus' own words.

Blessings


----------



## The Foreigner

Also don't worry about telling your neighbour about whether he is elect or not - neither of you know the fact of it, so don't raise the issue. Our Lord, more often than not, does not raise the issue of election when calling people to repentance. When he does do it, he is often responding to those who have already rejected him (read john 6). So election is not the message that I would emphasize in a gospel presentation. In this respect, I'm trying to follow the pattern of Christ's own teaching.


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## mtnwoman

Thanks TF, I get where you're coming from. 

And I agree with your viewpoint...well at least most of it. I agree with what you've said here.

I agree that Christ died for His sheep...and I know that there's nothing that we can do except to believe and repent to be saved. I just don't believe that God handpicked His sheep and that the gift of the cross is  not for everyone, even the nonbelieving Jews, who have only been temporarily blinded, like Paul, so that the gentiles can be grafted in....and gentiles are any and everyone who is not a Jew.  

I believe God used Paul specifically as a witness because of Paul's position. So that others would say, 'look even Paul believes now, maybe we should open our ears'. Thus all of Paul's letters. I believe there were many others chosen like Paul, but Paul is dominant (for lack of a better word) in getting the church 'noticed'. How many Jews did Paul influence because of his position?  
How many Jews did Moses influence? (most of whom were
reluctant) because he was the adopted son of the Pharoah, I believe God uses people in high places for a reason....subshepards, maybe? 

I believe Pharoahs heart was hardened to the fact of letting the Jews go, so he went after them, and he was destroyed and I believe that's what his heart was hardened towards, giving freedom to his slaves. But God let him make a choice that would cause his destruction which was what God's plan was, to destroy the masters of the Jewish slavery.  And Pharoah was powerful, but God showed the rest of the world at that time, that He was much more powerful. It wasn't a secret or personal incident between God and Pharoah, God used Pharoah so that many people would hear or see the power of the God of Abraham. 

Even the nonbelieving Jews still believe they are 'the' chosen. But without believing the gospel, even God's chosen people will not be saved. And that IS a blanket statement for all mankind. 
I believe when Paul says 'us', he still has the mindset of a Jew, ie God's chosen people.  Just like Peter that called the gentiles unclean/unacceptable.

The Jews led by Moses wandered in the desert for 40 years until the mindset of slavery was bred out of them. They were only on a 12 mile hike. It took them 40 yrs to get to a place where God could use them. Why? were they working on their own free will, of course they were.

And I just believe that Peter and Paul and other disciples still had the mindset of a Jew and that God brought in the gentiles, so that the Jews would know that God meant even the unclean, He chooses to save, if they believe. God wants to be everyone's God....not just a select few.

All of that, TForeigner, is not from reasonings I got from you. You did clear up a lot of things for me.


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## mtnwoman

1 Timothy 2 
King James Version (KJV)


1 Timothy 2
 1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 

 2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 

 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 

 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 

 5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 

 6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 

 7Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity. 

 8I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. 

 9In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; 

 10But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 

 11Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 

 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 

 13For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 

 14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 

 15Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.

Does Timothy teach with a mindset of a Jew, or are all of us women to follow this since it to is written in the NT?
That we should learn in silence? and submissiveness(whether we are convicted differently or not?) We are still in bondage to the natural man rather delivered by God to be who we are in Christ.

If I was submissive to my ex I woulda been a drug dealer, and yes he was a backslidden saved man.

What does this have to do with election? That some of Paul's thought process in his letters proves that he (paul) went from 'us' the chosen (Jews) to another 'us' the chosen (acceptance of Christ). Paul was always of the chosen wasn't he? at least in his mind. Same mindset of Peter and Timothy, still preaching from the OT.

ETA there are churches today that adopt that doctrine that Timothy wrote about, no makeup, no flashy jewelry, no cutting of your hair, etc etc to supposedly call attention to yourself. And there are of course, people who adopt a doctrine based on what Paul said.  Don't doubt that God can save everyone thru Jesus Christ and I believe God's will is for that to happen, even though He knows and we know that will never happen. But God is no respector of persons and wants to save everyone....that's mercy and grace towards all not a chosen few.


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## common man

mtnwoman

On a side note I think alot of what you are saying is from a dispensationalist pesrspective. Probably because that is all in life alot of Christians today are exposed to. Some of us on here would hold that God had one plan for salvation and that is through faith.

Jonah was being sent to Ninevah to preach the gospel. There wer no Jews their I believe. Abraham was justified because of his faith not from keeping some sacrificial system. See Romans 4. 

Probably alot of us leaningtowards the other way would lean more towards new covenant theology. Just something you might want to look at just so you can compare. Most all my life all I ever heard was some form of dispensationalism but that concept when placed against church history is not that old of a system. Just trying to show other views. Appreciate your comments and posting.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> mtnwoman
> 
> On a side note I think alot of what you are saying is from a dispensationalist pesrspective. Probably because that is all in life alot of Christians today are exposed to. Some of us on here would hold that God had one plan for salvation and that is through faith.
> 
> Jonah was being sent to Ninevah to preach the gospel. There wer no Jews their I believe. Abraham was justified because of his faith not from keeping some sacrificial system. See Romans 4.
> 
> Probably alot of us leaningtowards the other way would lean more towards new covenant theology. Just something you might want to look at just so you can compare. Most all my life all I ever heard was some form of dispensationalism but that concept when placed against church history is not that old of a system. Just trying to show other views. Appreciate your comments and posting.



You are correct, ninevah was actually an enemy to the Jews. God gave them 40 days to repent or they would be destroyed. Jonah wanted them to be destroyed because he was in great fear of them. But they who lived in ninevah  opted to repent and God was faithful to His word and did not destroy them. God saved all of ninevah not part. 
Just as today, God tells us to repent or else.

God could've just gone in and destroyed ninevah right off the bat, but He did not, He gave them a choice, just like He gives us today. Except we have proof, we have the cross...where as ninevah was saved by faith, grace and mercy. Same as we are today, just we have more evidence since we didn't study under the old law.  Well at least I didn't. I'm a NT believer.  I know that I will be destroyed if I do not repent, I grew up with that, Ninevah did not.
Salvation of ninevah was a witness to the power of our God, along with His mercy and grace that He has for all. Did God take power over Jonah to do His will? yes He did. Did God take power over Ninevah and make them repent, no, not according to this scripture, why else would Jonah have to preach the gospel if God could just will them to believe and make it happen?

Did God overcome Moses, Jonah, Abraham, Paul, Noah, Pharoah and use them as a tool sometimes against their will? Yes He did....that doesn't prove that He does that to all of us, He could just force who He will to believe and be done with the process, especially since He already knows who will and will not surrender to Him.


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## mtnwoman

Reading much about the tulip doctrine, it appears to me that this doctrine claims justification of man before he even repents, if he is in fact chosen.

Doesn't the NT say to believe and repent before justification/salvation can take place? 

It appears to me also that predestination salvation before the foundation of the earth, would not require a sacrifice to achieve something that we have already been given ie before the foundation of the earth. What would be the point?  No catalyst needed to render us into salvation. 

Isaiah also says something that appears to lend to the tulip doctrine, in chapter 53. However nothing is mentioned of us the gentiles, so seemingly it shows Isaiah was still speaking of the Jews, how they would not all believe, and that Jesus died for those who would believe. Which of course most of us believe that Christ died for our sins, those of us who would chose to believe and repent.

I do not believe my name was written in the book of life until I believed and repented, not before.

I was not originally 'chosen', I was grafted into the vine, now I am of the elect after my belief and repentence, not before.


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## common man

mtnwoman said:


> Reading much about the tulip doctrine, it appears to me that this doctrine claims justification of man before he even repents, if he is in fact chosen.
> 
> Doesn't the NT say to believe and repent before justification/salvation can take place?
> 
> Solely God has to go do some major work on the heart of someone since it is spirituaaly dead.  Regeneration first, then conversion (repentance and faith) both of which are described in scripture as gifts or initiated by God. Ephesian 2,              2 timothy  chapter 2 verse 25
> 
> It appears to me also that predestination salvation before the foundation of the earth, would not require a sacrifice to achieve something that we have already been given ie before the foundation of the earth. What would be the point?  No catalyst needed to render us into salvation.
> 
> Still have sins to account for either way, show his glory
> 
> Isaiah also says something that appears to lend to the tulip doctrine, in chapter 53. However nothing is mentioned of us the gentiles, so seemingly it shows Isaiah was still speaking of the Jews, how they would not all believe, and that Jesus died for those who would believe. Which of course most of us believe that Christ died for our sins, those of us who would chose to believe and repent.
> 
> I do not believe my name was written in the book of life until I believed and repented, not before.
> 
> Revelation 13 verse 8
> "And all that dwell on the earth shall worship the beast, whose names are not written in  the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."
> 
> There is a book and it was written before all eternity and there was a Lamb that was going to be slain before their ever was history, or sin,  or humans ,or anything.
> 
> I see no other way of interpreting that verse other than if your name is not in the book you will worship the beast. Not the other way around Like _'ll take your name out if you worship the beast etc, etc. The reason they worship the beast is because thier name is not in the book._
> 
> 
> 
> I was not originally 'chosen', I was grafted into the vine, now I am of the elect after my belief and repentence, not before.



I think here you are just really hung up on the order. I agree with you 100% that you have to believe and repent to be saved, where I differ is how I see scripture telling me the call effected my faith.

1 Corinthians 1 verses 22-25
"For the Jews require a sign, and the greekds seek after wisdom. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the greeks foolishness. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Romans 8 29-30 
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren. Moreover he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It's not like here God drew these people to a point then they made their ultimate self determination. The ones who were called were justified and only believers are justified. The call effects faith.


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## common man

sorry got your original quote mixed in there. My bad.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> I think here you are just really hung up on the order. I agree with you 100% that you have to believe and repent to be saved, where I differ is how I see scripture telling me the call effected my faith.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1 verses 22-25
> "For the Jews require a sign, and the greekds seek after wisdom. But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumbling block, and unto the greeks foolishness. But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks,Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
> 
> Romans 8 29-30
> For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinateto be conformed to the image of his son, that he might be the firstborn of many brethren. Moreover he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
> 
> It's not like here God drew these people to a point then they made their ultimate self determination. The ones who were called were justified and only believers are justified. The call effects faith.



I just believe that God calls us all and only some will accept.

I believe, I could be wrong, that you believe God only calls some and those all will accept.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> sorry got your original quote mixed in there. My bad.



Don't worry about it, we all do it and I know what you meant. 


:candle:


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> You are correct, ninevah was actually an enemy to the Jews. God gave them 40 days to repent or they would be destroyed. Jonah wanted them to be destroyed because he was in great fear of them. But they who lived in ninevah  opted to repent and God was faithful to His word and did not destroy them. God saved all of ninevah not part.
> Just as today, God tells us to repent or else.
> 
> God could've just gone in and destroyed ninevah right off the bat, but He did not, He gave them a choice, just like He gives us today. Except we have proof, we have the cross...where as ninevah was saved by faith, grace and mercy. Same as we are today, just we have more evidence since we didn't study under the old law.  Well at least I didn't. I'm a NT believer.  I know that I will be destroyed if I do not repent, I grew up with that, Ninevah did not.
> Salvation of ninevah was a witness to the power of our God, along with His mercy and grace that He has for all. Did God take power over Jonah to do His will? yes He did. Did God take power over Ninevah and make them repent, no, not according to this scripture, why else would Jonah have to preach the gospel if God could just will them to believe and make it happen?
> 
> Did God overcome Moses, Jonah, Abraham, Paul, Noah, Pharoah and use them as a tool sometimes against their will? Yes He did....that doesn't prove that He does that to all of us, He could just force who He will to believe and be done with the process, especially since He already knows who will and will not surrender to Him.



I am being used by God like He used Pharaoh; as a patsy. My life is a cautionary tale to scare children into saying their prayers and eating their vegetables.


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## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I am being used by God like He used Pharaoh; as a patsy. My life is a cautionary tale to scare children into saying their prayers and eating their vegetables.



Thanks for letting God use you.   You are faithful in it, for sure.


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## common man

A couple more helpful scriptures.

Acts13 verse 48

When the Gentiles heard this,they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

John 6 verses 37-39

All that the Father gives Me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. This is the will of Him who sent ME, that all that He has biven Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Thanks for letting God use you.   You are faithful in it, for sure.




I'm not really "letting" Him.  If He intends to use me for something, do I have any choice?


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## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I'm not really "letting" Him.  If He intends to use me for something, do I have any choice?



I believe you do.....then again He can also bring you to your knees.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> A couple more helpful scriptures.
> 
> Acts13 verse 48
> 
> When the Gentiles heard this,they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
> 
> John 6 verses 37-39
> 
> All that the Father gives Me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will certainly not cast out. This is the will of Him who sent ME, that all that He has biven Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.




Acts 10:33-35
King James Version (KJV)


 33Immediately therefore I sent to thee; and thou hast well done that thou art come. Now therefore are we all here present before God, to hear all things that are commanded thee of God. 

 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 

 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


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## mtnwoman

I believe God's word is meant for everyone. Not everyone will believe and God already knows that. Does He render some to service by hand picking them? I believe He does, just like Paul. The entire scripture, and you should read it all, down to the last few verses which explains pretty much how I believe other than verse 16 of course.

The testimony of Christ is given freely to everyone, and only some will believe. But it is available for everyone in my opinion. And do I thank God everyday for saving me, of course I do. Do I take any credit? of course not.  I know what I can do on my own and it ain't pretty.  If God is willing to save me, surely He will save anyone.




John 3 
King James Version (KJV)


John 3
 1There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 

 2The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 

 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 

 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 

 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 

 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 

 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 

 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 

 9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 

 10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 

 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 

 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 

 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 

 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 

 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 

 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 

 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 

 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 

 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 

 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. 

 22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 

 23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 

 24For John was not yet cast into prison. 

 25Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying. 

 26And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 

 27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven. 

 28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but that I am sent before him. 

 29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled. 

 30He must increase, but I must decrease. 

 31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 

especially beginning here>>> 32And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. 

 33He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. 

 34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. 

 35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 

 36He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> I believe you do.....then again He can also bring you to your knees.



So it is entirely possible that God has a plan to use me like He did Pharaoh and that Pharaoh and I will be toasting marshmallows with Satan.  Boy. Too bad for me and Pharaoh, huh?


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## Israel

ambush80 said:


> So it is entirely possible that God has a plan to use me like He did Pharaoh and that Pharaoh and I will be toasting marshmallows with Satan.  Boy. Too bad for me and Pharaoh, huh?



You are precisely where you need to be...and if you have come to the place of "too bad for me"...you are all the more encouraged...don't go to that place.
Don't worry...God will not make you a christian.
He'd love for you to hear him call you son. And that will be enough for both he and you. Splendiferously enough.


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## ambush80

Israel said:


> You are precisely where you need to be...and if you have come to the place of "too bad for me"...you are all the more encouraged...don't go to that place.
> Don't worry...God will not make you a christian.
> He'd love for you to hear him call you son. And that will be enough for both he and you. Splendiferously enough.



I'm sure it won't be any surprise to Him where I end up.


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## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> I'm sure it won't be any surprise to Him where I end up.



Yes, He knows, already!


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## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> So it is entirely possible that God has a plan to use me like He did Pharaoh and that Pharaoh and I will be toasting marshmallows with Satan.  Boy. Too bad for me and Pharaoh, huh?



What Israel said.


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> Yes, He knows, already!



In that case I'll just go along and do what I do and if it's meant to be that I repent then I will.  Then I'll be in the club and when I am at my atheist friend's deathbed I can tell him "things are as they were going to be as they were known from before the beginning" (or something similarly cryptic and mystical).


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> I just believe that God calls us all and only some will accept.
> 
> I believe, I could be wrong, that you believe God only calls some and those all will accept.



Just for a second lay aside what you believe and reread Romans 8 verse 28-30 again. The called are justified and only believers are justified. If the called come to faith and are justified and then later glorified.

If you match  what you are saying against this scripture, everyone is going to come to faith. Which we would both agree is not going to happen ?

I'm just trying to show you scriptuarlly there is a differnece between a general call and a special inward call which is shown in 1 Corinthins 1. The gospel goes out (general call) some Jews and Greeks don't accept it.  But then the verse clearly states that something else happened "to those who are called" they came to faith.

Another way of putting it is just read Romans Chapter 9. If the only reason God chose Jacob over Esau was soemthing in them. What I mean is something they had done or not done concerning faith why would Paul then turn around and ask the question Is God unjust in the same chapter?


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## Israel

ambush80 said:


> I'm sure it won't be any surprise to Him where I end up.


LOL...the joy he has is in you finding where he has placed you...not in his relief some distant day "whew! thanks be to me Ambush finally made it". 
You can put off joy as long as you need to...but why?
It's yours today...you're free, right now...alive, and forgiven. No strings. No formal signature of obligation.
Love works well enough to do two things...keep you...and also, for God purpose...to jazz up some other live wires.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> In that case I'll just go along and do what I do and if it's meant to be that I repent then I will.  Then I'll be in the club and when I am at my atheist friend's deathbed I can tell him "things are as they were going to be as they were known from before the beginning" (or something similarly cryptic and mystical).





I believe God calls everyone to believe and repent and be saved. He gives salvation to all who accept Him. Jesus did it all on the cross for you, so you've already been called. All you have to do is accept the gift....you will then have the desire to repent, it basically all happened to me at once, because I had already heard the gospel and I knew what the process was. 

I was still clueless for a long time, until I understood who the Holy Spirit was, but I'm sure after I was saved then God took the wheel and led me to where I needed to go.  I wish I would've understood who the Holy Spirit was a long time ago....but I went thru what I went thru for His glory...for a testimony of the work God did in me.

I believe another thing too, in many cases or maybe in all cases, our 'hearing' the gospel is our calling.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Just for a second lay aside what you believe and reread Romans 8 verse 28-30 again. The called are justified and only believers are justified. If the called come to faith and are justified and then later glorified.
> 
> If you match  what you are saying against this scripture, everyone is going to come to faith. Which we would both agree is not going to happen ?
> 
> I'm just trying to show you scriptuarlly there is a differnece between a general call and a special inward call which is shown in 1 Corinthins 1. The gospel goes out (general call) some Jews and Greeks don't accept it.  But then the verse clearly states that something else happened "to those who are called" they came to faith.
> 
> Another way of putting it is just read Romans Chapter 9. If the only reason God chose Jacob over Esau was soemthing in them. What I mean is something they had done or not done concerning faith why would Paul then turn around and ask the question Is God unjust in the same chapter?



I get what you're saying.

I just was not saved based on that doctrine. I was saved based on John 3:16. 

I think we should start a thread on Jacob and Esau and we can see on Esau's journey where someone was ask to destroy a certain people, all of them and they were not all destroyed and those are believed to be the muslims, by many Bible scholars.  If God meant for the muslims/another people to be destroyed why didn't He force someone's hand to do that? Anyway that's all beside the point.  Jacob and Esau didn't have the blood to be covered under, we do.  God punished them on the spot, like Moses who wandered off in the desert to die...etc. They are the ones with limited atonement....limited to how they lived by the law or not.  The crusifiction changed all that, and even changed to everyone else who believed could be saved too, and not just the chosen of the OT, the Jews. 

JMHO


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## mtnwoman

Israel said:


> LOL...the joy he has is in you finding where he has placed you...not in his relief some distant day "whew! thanks be to me Ambush finally made it".
> You can put off joy as long as you need to...but why?
> It's yours today...you're free, right now...alive, and forgiven. No strings. No formal signature of obligation.
> Love works well enough to do two things...keep you...and also, for God purpose...to jazz up some other live wires.



Amen!

God sometimes jazzes up some dead wires, too.


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## ambush80

Israel said:


> LOL...the joy he has is in you finding where he has placed you...not in his relief some distant day "whew! thanks be to me Ambush finally made it".
> You can put off joy as long as you need to...but why?
> It's yours today...you're free, right now...alive, and forgiven. No strings. No formal signature of obligation.
> Love works well enough to do two things...keep you...and also, for God purpose...to jazz up some other live wires.




All good then. Que sera sera.  I surrender myself to His will, even if He already knows that I am He11 bound.  What a relief.


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> all good then. Que sera sera.  I surrender myself to his will, even if he already knows that i am he11 bound.  What a relief.


!



!



!


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## common man

mtnwoman said:


> I get what you're saying.
> 
> I just was not saved based on that doctrine. I was saved based on John 3:16.
> 
> I think we should start a thread on Jacob and Esau and we can see on Esau's journey where someone was ask to destroy a certain people, all of them and they were not all destroyed and those are believed to be the muslims, by many Bible scholars.  If God meant for the muslims/another people to be destroyed why didn't He force someone's hand to do that? Anyway that's all beside the point.  Jacob and Esau didn't have the blood to be covered under, we do.  God punished them on the spot, like Moses who wandered off in the desert to die...etc. They are the ones with limited atonement....limited to how they lived by the law or not.  The crusifiction changed all that, and even changed to everyone else who believed could be saved too, and not just the chosen of the OT, the Jews.
> 
> JMHO



You can still believe as I do and have absolutely no problem with John 3 verse 16. And as I stated those in the old testament were saved by faith just as you and I are. See Romans 4. Does it says Abraham was justified by keeping some system or his physical lineage. Nope. IF we want to go off being saved for being a part of a family lineage Esau would certainly have qualified. But God through his own choosing chose Jacob which the scripture clearly says was not based off of some foreseen act


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> You can still believe as I do and have absolutely no problem with John 3 verse 16. And as I stated those in the old testament were saved by faith just as you and I are. See Romans 4. Does it says Abraham was justified by keeping some system or his physical lineage. Nope. IF we want to go off being saved for being a part of a family lineage Esau would certainly have qualified. But God through his own choosing chose Jacob which the scripture clearly says was not based off of some foreseen act



But Esau did something that turned God against him
The twins grew up very different. Jacob was “a quiet man, staying among the tents” and his mother’s favorite. Esau was “a skillful hunter, a man of the open country” and his father’s favorite. One day, Esau returned from hunting and desired some of the lentil stew that Jacob was cooking. Jacob offered to give his brother some stew in exchange for his birthright—the special honor that Esau possessed as the older son, which gave him the right to a double portion of his father’s inheritance. Esau put his temporary, physical needs over his God-given blessing and sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:27-34).

If we were prechosen, and they were saved the same way we are, and we the same way they are, what did we need Jesus for? why didn't God give them Jesus in the first place? why give Him as a sacrifice later? God had a plan with Jesus and even told Abraham that He (God) would provide His own blood sacrifice, the Lamb of God.

The old covenant and the new covenant with God are different, not the same, or we'd still be in the old testament.  Jesus is our new blood covenant with God, which brought everyone else into the picture, other than the chosen who were of the OT.

Would you go back and answer my post about timothy? and his and paul's mindset...thanks.

I don't want to believe as you do, that only a select chosen few can be witnessed to and saved. I want to be able to tell everyone (whosoever) that the gospel is meant for them and anyone else who will believe.
Until/unless God convicts me of something else, I'll stick to the doctrine by which I was saved. I'm not gonna up and believe something else after believing this for 50 years and been under no other conviction before. Trust me i've prayed about this long and hard the past few months.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> But Esau did something that turned God against him
> The twins grew up very different. Jacob was “a quiet man, staying among the tents” and his mother’s favorite. Esau was “a skillful hunter, a man of the open country” and his father’s favorite. One day, Esau returned from hunting and desired some of the lentil stew that Jacob was cooking. Jacob offered to give his brother some stew in exchange for his birthright—the special honor that Esau possessed as the older son, which gave him the right to a double portion of his father’s inheritance. Esau put his temporary, physical needs over his God-given blessing and sold his birthright to Jacob (Genesis 25:27-34).
> 
> Here we are back to the fact that God chooses based on some foreseen act which Romans 9 clearly states is not the case. We can certainly go through Jacob's actions and find reasons he should not be chosen.
> 
> If we were prechosen, and they were saved the same way we are, and we the same way they are, what did we need Jesus for? why didn't God give them Jesus in the first place? why give Him as a sacrifice later? God had a plan with Jesus and even told Abraham that He (God) would provide His own blood sacrifice, the Lamb of God.
> 
> Sins were passed over in the old testament, the law, sacrificial system all of these things were pictures of things to come.  They couldn't even come close to keeping the law. As in Colossians the law was given as a schoolmaster to show how impossible it was to keep.  I believe when Christ died he died for all of those sins of everyone who were his elect., his sheep past and prestent. It was a real sacrifice for real sins. Otherwise you end up with a Savior who didn't save anyone. Because that sacrifice is only activated when God brings you to a certain point and then you make the final decision. This point if held to clearly goes against so much scripture which we have already talked about. All of the called coming to faith etc etc.  And this decision is made by someone who the bible describes as spiritualy dead.
> 
> The old covenant and the new covenant with God are different, not the same, or we'd still be in the old testament.  Jesus is our new blood covenant with God, which brought everyone else into the picture, other than the chosen who were of the OT.
> 
> Once again Romans 4. Old testamnet saints were saved the same way through faith. Yes largely Jews but not all. If God had some different plan of salvation why would Paul say I wish to be accursed for the sake of my brethren.
> 
> Would you go back and answer my post about timothy? and his and paul's mindset...thanks.
> 
> Don't rememberthis one sorry.
> 
> I don't want to believe as you do, that only a select chosen few can be witnessed to and saved. I want to be able to tell everyone (whosoever) that the gospel is meant for them and anyone else who will believe.
> Until/unless God convicts me of something else, I'll stick to the doctrine by which I was saved. I'm not gonna up and believe something else after believing this for 50 years and been under no other conviction before. Trust me i've prayed about this long and hard the past few months.



MTnwoman I share your pain it is hard to grasp that God can be completely just and gracious at the same time. If youdon't want to believe it I hear you but if scripture plainly teaches it you have to go with scripture.  You have to start with are men truly evil, are they truly dead in sins, if there was no election would God be justified in sending all of the human race straight to :nono::nono::nono::nono:. And if he chooses to be gracious to some is he really ripping the others off who  don't want him, break his law etc. There is no island of righteousness inside of us, we all truly deserve the worst.

You still can believe as you do and preach the gospel indiscriminately to every living creature and sit back and watch God work. The gospel is meant for everyone who will repent and believe.


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> I surrender myself to His will.



I think you are on to something, sans sarcasm.


----------



## ambush80

StriperAddict said:


> I think you are on to something, sans sarcasm.



I'm serious.  If He's real then He knows if I'll repent or not.  I'll just keep trucking along until I come upon a burning bush.


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## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Is serious.  If He's real then He knows if I'll repent or not.  I'll just keep trucking along until I come upon a burning bush.



No fortheloveofpete, don't ask for a burning bush....because when you need for God to prove it and ask Him to, He will, trust me.  Ask and ye shall receive, ya know?

Joy to the World.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> MTnwoman I share your pain*I don't have any pain, except for this doctrine. I am joyful, and my cup runneth over.* it is hard to grasp that God can be completely just and gracious at the same time.*Not to me it isn't. God can do what He chooses to do, I believe that because of Jonah.* If youdon't want to believe it I hear you but if scripture plainly teaches it you have to go with scripture.  You have to start with are men truly evil, are they truly dead in sins, if there was no election would God be justified in sending all of the human race straight to :nono::nono::nono::nono:. And if he chooses to be gracious to some is he really ripping the others off who  don't want him, break his law etc.*Well of course He is, after promising that He chooses for no one to perish??....He is faithful, He wouldn't do that.* There is no island of righteousness inside of us, we all truly deserve the worst.*So why does He choose/elect any of us? No one deserves less than I do and I'm saved.*
> 
> You still can believe as you do and preach the gospel indiscriminately to every living creature and sit back and watch God work. The gospel is meant for everyone who will repent and believe.*Of course it is. That's what I've been saying. everyone 'who will'*


----------



## jmharris23

If you are willing to listen....here is a good sermon on the topic 

http://my.ekklesia360.com/Clients/p...true&find_category=sermons&target=MediaPlayer


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## Israel

ambush80 said:


> Is serious.  If He's real then He knows if I'll repent or not.  I'll just keep trucking along until I come upon a burning bush.


Ambush, 
Brother.
(And I imply no sarcasm or casual casting about of our affiliation in that. For I don't believe I have ever viewed you with disdain, or treated you with such. If I have, forgive me. God knows how easily I am prone to behaving like a bull in the china shop of other people's hearts)
You wrote well, and since I respect you as a man not at all unlike myself, I accept you at your word. I had wanted to post only one *!*...but the site required three characters to be a post.
Jesus said this:
If any man will do his will, he will know whether my doctrine is my own.

He likewise said:   

Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? 
Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 

I do not despise the day of small beginnings. A man has attained to a measure of wisdom when he realizes, if my life and times are in the hands of another...how can I resist him, if he has a "will" for me? Even I am not sure I see him as others claim they do...(I speak of myself)

Committing to him what is his, even if we do not know the full measure of all that he yet holds (and I trust...not one man who has ever set out to seek the truth... of God...first cause...prime mover...has ever known the fullness of what would be revealed)...and that he even has a name we come to know him by.

You are right...if God wants you to repent...he will bring you to it. It is his kindness, not badgering, or my condescension, that works.
God knows what form your burning bush will take. But you will know it when you see it.
I hope someday soon to sit with you and we can discuss these things.

I have...over the course of my brief walk with Jesus, met wolves in sheep's clothing. 

It is no longer a wonder to me to meet those wearing an agnostic's or atheist's garb that are, if I look patiently, unswervingly, and deeply enough...those who hear a shepherd in their hearts.


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## StriperAddict

I'll amen what Israel shared with you, Ambush.  Pardon any of my idiocyncracies that get in the way of telling you I also admire your search on these matters.  It may seem like digging in a trench with no gold to be found, but it will be revealed in perfect time.  I'll continue to pray and suggest to you to keep an open heart on your study of the One who holds pure gold out to you freely, and of more value than the stuff you can hold in your hand.


----------



## mtnwoman

jmharris23 said:


> If you are willing to listen....here is a good sermon on the topic
> 
> http://my.ekklesia360.com/Clients/p...true&find_category=sermons&target=MediaPlayer



Thank you, that was awesome!


----------



## ambush80

Israel and StiperAddict,

I thought about both your responses all day because I sense your sincerity and zeal in both of your posts as well as your deep concern for those who you believe to be lost.

All logic aside.

I will tell you with the utmost heartfelt honesty that for me the biggest issue I have with the God described in the Bible is His position of submit or burn.  That's really what it boils down to.  Y'all talk about the love and the healing and the peace but before ALL that is the declaration: "You are lord." and the penalty for not submitting....? Well, there have been some pretty good discussions on what He11 might be like. 

My head, my heart and every fiber of my being tells me that this kind of a proposition is the kind of thing made up by men.  God may exist but I refuse to believe that this is the best He could come up with.

I appreciate your concern (yours too, Annie).  You are doing what you think is right but I'm convinced that it's not.

Back to the OP.  Either He knows what I'll do or He doesn't and if He knows, then what will be will be.  No need to argue about His nature and what He would or wouldn't do or whether or not it is in character.  If He knows, He knows.


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> Israel and StiperAddict,
> 
> I thought about both your responses all day because I sense your sincerity and zeal in both of your posts as well as your deep concern for those who you believe to be lost.
> 
> All logic aside.
> 
> I will tell you with the utmost heartfelt honesty that for me the biggest issue I have with the God described in the Bible is His position of submit or burn.  That's really what it boils down to.  Y'all talk about the love and the healing and the peace but before ALL that is the declaration: "You are lord." and the penalty for not submitting....? Well, there have been some pretty good discussions on what He11 might be like.
> 
> My head, my heart and every fiber of my being tells me that this kind of a proposition is the kind of thing made up by men.  God may exist but I refuse to believe that this is the best He could come up with.
> 
> I appreciate your concern (yours too, Annie).  You are doing what you think is right but I'm convinced that it's not.
> 
> Back to the OP.  Either He knows what I'll do or He doesn't and if He knows, then what will be will be.  No need to argue about His nature and what He would or wouldn't do or whether or not it is in character.  If He knows, He knows.



Some men make the centerpiece of "their" gospel the righteous judgments of God. But often, what seems to be omitted is the most important judgment, that is, God's judgment of Jesus. 
As I see it...if all we talk about judgment is its wrath for sin...and fail to mention God's judgement of Jesus, we leave the hearer short changed (at least again,as I see it.)
In short...God had a judgment for Jesus...and it is this...
sit here, on my throne...for I have judged you worthy of it. In bible talk it is this: 

Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 

Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 

And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 

They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 

And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 

And not to be wordy...but this:

Heb 3:1  Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus; 
Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house. 
For this man was _counted worthy_ of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house. 

I include these in concession to my brothers, for what does "counted worthy" mean except a judgment?

Or here.
Eph 1:20  Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 
Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 
_And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church_, 
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all. 
In short...Jesus received of the Father what is due him...because of his righteousness.


Now...if someone can appreciate the man, Christ Jesus as one who desired mercy over judgment...to the point of his own death for the sake of others...to keep others from wrath...and to even...somehow begin to see that he was "led" there by someone who so wanted his merciful nature known he would sacrifice his own son...perhaps, then perhaps...a man might begin to see God has never delighted in anything more than showing mercy and grace.
I would say to a man who says "I cannot believe in a God in says turn or burn" 
Perhaps you do not see how, and the lengths he has absolutely gone to...to keep you from it.
When a man chooses mercy he receives it.
It is impossible for a man to know what he inherits if he refuses it until it is too late.
The choosing of "not mercy" is a horrid place to be...and go.
If you do not believe you need mercy you will think me a fool.
I don't accuse you of anything about you that demands you need it.
It's only the mercy I have received that impels me to speak of its wondrousness. 
For seeing someone who loves others better than themself is both my salvation and deliverance from my selfish self. I am the man who needs mercy.
And I am now a debtor to you for allowing me to speak to you about it.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Back to the OP.  Either He knows what I'll do or He doesn't and if He knows, then what will be will be.  No need to argue about His nature and what He would or wouldn't do or whether or not it is in character.  If He knows, He knows.



All of us (believers) believe that God is all knowing. He knows what we will choose, no matter what else we believe and most of us cannot and will not agree on every single thing.

I used to say, that all Christians whether they are Baptist, Methodist, nondenominational, Catholics etc...we all believe John 3:16....but I can't say that any more after this thread.
All of us don't believe that verse, that whosoever believeth...it's whosoever God chooseth for some.

In my opinion ambush, you have a choice whether you want to be saved or not...and I believe God is calling you and I believe He loves you and does not wish for you to perish.  Turn or burn is a manmade statement.

Back to the boat I spoke of earlier. You are called into the boat to be saved, if you don't get in then it is your choice to perish. The person that came to get you isn't being mean and wishes for you to perish they came to save you, you just denied the free ride.


----------



## mtnwoman

StriperAddict said:


> I'll amen what Israel shared with you, Ambush.  Pardon any of my idiocyncracies that get in the way of telling you I also admire your search on these matters.  It may seem like digging in a trench with no gold to be found, but it will be revealed in perfect time.  I'll continue to pray and suggest to you to keep an open heart on your study of the One who holds pure gold out to you freely, and of more value than the stuff you can hold in your hand.



Amen!


----------



## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> All of us (believers) believe that God is all knowing. He knows what we will choose, no matter what else we believe and most of us cannot and will not agree on every single thing.



Then it will all come out in the wash.  Whew!



mtnwoman said:


> I used to say, that all Christians whether they are Baptist, Methodist, nondenominational, Catholics etc...we all believe John 3:16....but I can't say that any more after this thread.
> All of us don't believe that verse, that whosoever believeth...it's whosoever God chooseth for some.
> 
> In my opinion ambush, you have a choice whether you want to be saved or not...and I believe God is calling you and I believe He loves you and does not wish for you to perish.  Turn or burn is a manmade statement.
> 
> Back to the boat I spoke of earlier. You are called into the boat to be saved, if you don't get in then it is your choice to perish. The person that came to get you isn't being mean and wishes for you to perish they came to save you, you just denied the free ride.



I'm fine.  I'm not "drowning".


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Then it will all come out in the wash.  Whew!
> I'm fine.  I'm not "drowning".



You might not be drowning in the washing machine, but if you were, let's say, drowning in something deeper, He would carry you across the raging waters.


----------



## Israel

mtnwoman said:


> All of us (believers) believe that God is all knowing. He knows what we will choose, no matter what else we believe and most of us cannot and will not agree on every single thing.
> 
> I used to say, that all Christians whether they are Baptist, Methodist, nondenominational, Catholics etc...we all believe John 3:16....but I can't say that any more after this thread.
> All of us don't believe that verse, that whosoever believeth...it's whosoever God chooseth for some.
> 
> In my opinion ambush, you have a choice whether you want to be saved or not...and I believe God is calling you and I believe He loves you and does not wish for you to perish.  _Turn or burn is a manmade statement._
> 
> Back to the boat I spoke of earlier. You are called into the boat to be saved, if you don't get in then it is your choice to perish. The person that came to get you isn't being mean and wishes for you to perish they came to save you, you just denied the free ride.



I hope you understand that it was said to emphasize the weakness of some communication.
A man may say "All I *hear* from believers is about a God who says turn or burn"
(And I have also known some believers who have even justified that precise communication by saying "well...Jesus himself said "Repent or Perish")
The matter becomes that as Jesus said this...he went about preaching the good news of the Kingdom of God, both in power and intent of laying his own life down for those who would believe.
I know how easy it is to share the gospel thinking "Gee, this is easy...just say some words about Jesus" (And I don't accuse anyone of this immature thinking except myself)
But I have discovered, as many of you seem to have, there is a "cup" the Lord calls us to share.
Paul knew what it was to be "poured out on the sacrifice and service" for the faith of others, as Jesus knew he would be. Jesus knew from the start...we learn it.
And there is a great difference between a casual speaking of "Repent, the Kingdom of God is at hand" and the same words spoken through the mouth of one who fully intended his own death on behalf of those to whom he preached.
I am just beginning to see why Jesus repeated to Peter...do you love me.
Peter would share the same cup, and discover the feeding of sheep would also be with his very own life consumed on the altar and sacrifice of their faith.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> All of us (believers) believe that God is all knowing. He knows what we will choose, no matter what else we believe and most of us cannot and will not agree on every single thing.
> 
> I used to say, that all Christians whether they are Baptist, Methodist, nondenominational, Catholics etc...we all believe John 3:16....but I can't say that any more after this thread.
> All of us don't believe that verse, that whosoever believeth...it's whosoever God chooseth for some.
> 
> In my opinion ambush, you have a choice whether you want to be saved or not...and I believe God is calling you and I believe He loves you and does not wish for you to perish.  Turn or burn is a manmade statement.
> 
> Back to the boat I spoke of earlier. You are called into the boat to be saved, if you don't get in then it is your choice to perish. The person that came to get you isn't being mean and wishes for you to perish they came to save you, you just denied the free ride.



Mtnwoman why can't the gospel go out to all and then God can soverignly work at the same time. 

Phillipians 2 verse 12-13.

Like we saw in 1 Corinthians 1 verses 24-26 the gospel goes out, some think it's foolishness, some a stumbling block. but to those who are called it is something else.

Why can't God simply say to us in scripture and I think he does go find my sheep, they will hear my voice, go after them lay down yur life for them, don't worry about who will respond, preach it on the mountain tops everywhere whoever will listen.

Their has to be somthing different in us you or anybody else who puts our faith in Christ or are we all equally guilty.  

That everyone has received this peanut butter grace throughout the world and you and I did something a little more better than someone who didn't. There has to be something a little better in us. We were a little more smarter, a little more spiritual, 

You will also be freed in knowing that you are freed from it all being on you when you talk to someone. It won't be based on your presentation but on God's sovereign work.


----------



## mtnwoman

Israel said:


> I hope you understand that it was said to emphasize the weakness of some communication.



I know. For me I'd rather use that in more biblical terms/words...repent and believe or perish. Life or death..etc. I think I just don't like using those particular words. I didn't mean it was a manmade idea, I just meant the choice of words were from man.  I agree with your post, for some reason that particular saying erks me....lol...but I know that fits in our postings here to get our basic opinion across.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> You will also be freed in knowing that you are freed from it all being on you when you talk to someone. It won't be based on your presentation but on God's sovereign work.



I am free.  I feel completely confident knowing that if I 'preach' the gospel to anyone, that that's the only thing I can do for them as far as salvation. I tell them, all you have to do is believe and repent and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit takes over from there as far as leading them. God can use me or someone else to disciple them. 

I urge them to go to church or find a good teacher/preacher that can help them understand more about the Bible.
So many people think you've got to do a lot of stuff to be saved and feel like it's a heavy yoke they are about to take on...gotta go to church, gotta be perfect, gotta understand the entire bible, gotta give all your money to the church, got to get a bicycle and a shirt and tie, etc etc.  Even the saved take on that heavy yoke.

It is different when I'm talking to a group than it is talking to one person. I could make a blanket statement to a group easier than I can one on one, when they are asking me "will God save me"?  I cannot fathom saying, well I don't know depends on if you're chosen. Then they have two things to dwell on.....finding salvation and wondering if it will do them any good not knowing whether they are chosen or not.

Would you answer my question on Timothy? If you already have and I missed it, send me the post number. Thanks.


----------



## G5BONECRUSHER

common man said:


> Mtnwoman why can't the gospel go out to all and then God can soverignly work at the same time.
> 
> Phillipians 2 verse 12-13.
> 
> Like we saw in 1 Corinthians 1 verses 24-26 the gospel goes out, some think it's foolishness, some a stumbling block. but to those who are called it is something else.
> 
> Why can't God simply say to us in scripture and I think he does go find my sheep, they will hear my voice, go after them lay down yur life for them, don't worry about who will respond, preach it on the mountain tops everywhere whoever will listen.
> 
> Their has to be somthing different in us you or anybody else who puts our faith in Christ *or are we all equally guilty*.
> 
> That everyone has received this peanut butter grace throughout the world and you and I did something a little more better than someone who didn't. There has to be something a little better in us. We were a little more smarter, a little more spiritual,
> 
> You will also be freed in knowing that you are freed from it all being on you when you talk to someone. It won't be based on your presentation but on God's sovereign work.



*We are all equally guilty....*

James 2:10 (ESV) For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.


----------



## mtnwoman

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> *We are all equally guilty....*



x2

God is no respector of persons...and God commanded for Peter not to be one either.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> I am free.  I feel completely confident knowing that if I 'preach' the gospel to anyone, that that's the only thing I can do for them as far as salvation. I tell them, all you have to do is believe and repent and God/Jesus/Holy Spirit takes over from there as far as leading them. God can use me or someone else to disciple them.
> 
> I urge them to go to church or find a good teacher/preacher that can help them understand more about the Bible.
> So many people think you've got to do a lot of stuff to be saved and feel like it's a heavy yoke they are about to take on...gotta go to church, gotta be perfect, gotta understand the entire bible, gotta give all your money to the church, got to get a bicycle and a shirt and tie, etc etc.  Even the saved take on that heavy yoke.
> 
> It is different when I'm talking to a group than it is talking to one person. I could make a blanket statement to a group easier than I can one on one, when they are asking me "will God save me"?  I cannot fathom saying, well I don't know depends on if you're chosen. Then they have two things to dwell on.....finding salvation and wondering if it will do them any good not knowing whether they are chosen or not.
> 
> Would you answer my question on Timothy? If you already have and I missed it, send me the post number. Thanks.






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mleum3jZ1E

Please watch this video above.  But I think either if you embrace the doctriens of grace or not you can equally say God will save you if you believe and repent.  And if they believe and repent then how did that take place and what does scripture say about that process not what you  want scripture to say that is the dilemma.  ultimately does scripture teach .

Can you give me the number for the timothy post.


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## CollinsCraft77

I am a Primitive Baptist. We hold to election and predestination.

Without going back and rehashing it all, I know that simply if God waits for me to make a right decision, well, he will still be waiting. What's right in man's eyes is not exactly the same as what is right in God's eyes.

If faith is the gift of God, how do you exercise such faith before it is given?

When I get confronted with the question "well aren't you worried about eternal salvation?" I always smile and say no. I much rather let God make any decision because we will never choose correctly. Your eyes are open to him because he allowed it. Not because you chose to see. 

Wish I weren't late to this discussion. It's really simple to me.

Easy way to describe it is, and yes, this is simple is this.

Take a man and a pitcher full of water. The man is God. The water in his pitcher is his spirit. Now imagine an empty glass on a table. The glass is dead. Spiritually dead (man). Now wait for the glass to ask the man to fill it. It will never happen. Only until the man decides to pour the water in the pitcher does the glass become like the pitcher. Can the glass really ever say he chose to be filled? No. Only when the man (God) decided to act was it so. Could the water going into the glass be rejected? No. Because the man held it when he filled it. It couldn't run away. It couldn't resist being filled. 

I know that's elementary and simple. But believer's are nothing more than vessels filled by God. I know, we all could quote scriptures till we are blue in the face. But if any of you can show me a glass that asks to be filled before actually being filled, well, I will consider your argument. But I got drawers full of them and I have never heard a peep out of them.


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## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I am a Primitive Baptist..



Please don't take offense to this question, I ask sincerely, and it may illustrate my personal ignorance on the subject, but are Primitive Baptists the ones who handle snakes?  



CollinsCraft77 said:


> But if any of you can show me a glass that asks to be filled before actually being filled, well, I will consider your argument. But I got drawers full of them and I have never heard a peep out of them.



The glass doesn't work because it has no feelings or emotions.  Even the "spiritually dead" have those.

But, if we are using analogies, I will offer mine:

A man breeds dogs for a living.  The man is God and the dogs are humans.  The dogs can't choose their master, as he is the breeder and determines which dogs are born.  Now, a few of these dogs he loves, and cherishes, and prepares a great place for.   But, for the majority of them, he just burns them alive.  What would you call that man?  

That is how everybody else sees God in light of predestination.


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## CollinsCraft77

lol! No we don't handle snakes.

The glass is spiritually dead. Carnal feelings are against God, correct? They have no spiritual feelings and without spiritual feelings will not turn to God.

Funny analogy. First of all, who said it was just a few? I believe it to be more than the grains of sand on a beach. Using your analogy, God would be wrong if he didn't take EVERYBODY. He doesn't do that in a freewill doctrine. 

If you guys want to believe you chose him, then brother that's great. All for it. Just shows me he chose you first.


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## ambush80

JB0704 said:


> Please don't take offense to this question, I ask sincerely, and it may illustrate my personal ignorance on the subject, but are Primitive Baptists the ones who handle snakes?
> 
> 
> 
> The glass doesn't work because it has no feelings or emotions.  Even the "spiritually dead" have those.
> 
> But, if we are using analogies, I will offer mine:
> 
> A man breeds dogs for a living.  The man is God and the dogs are humans.  The dogs can't choose their master, as he is the breeder and determines which dogs are born.  Now, a few of these dogs he loves, and cherishes, and prepares a great place for.   But, for the majority of them, he just burns them alive.  What would you call that man?
> 
> That is how everybody else sees God in light of predestination.



Someone with that kind of power? "Lord", I suppose.


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## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> Please don't take offense to this question, I ask sincerely, and it may illustrate my personal ignorance on the subject, but are Primitive Baptists the ones who handle snakes?
> 
> 
> 
> The glass doesn't work because it has no feelings or emotions.  Even the "spiritually dead" have those.
> 
> But, if we are using analogies, I will offer mine:
> 
> A man breeds dogs for a living.  The man is God and the dogs are humans.  The dogs can't choose their master, as he is the breeder and determines which dogs are born.  Now, a few of these dogs he loves, and cherishes, and prepares a great place for.   But, for the majority of them, he just burns them alive.  What would you call that man?
> 
> That is how everybody else sees God in light of predestination.



My sister just adopted a registered hunting dog, forgot the breed, but it's black and white and spotty. The breeder was gonna put the dog down because it wouldn't point. My brother in law went instantly to get the pup when he found that out, even though the pup wouldn't point. It appears to also have been abused. So now they have a beautiful rescue pup who will point at butterflies....lol.
Even though they had bought their last few pointers from this same breeder, they said they will never do business with him again.  I wouldn't be interested in doing business with someone like that either.

It's kinda like taking a litter of kittens, keeping the cutest one, and throwing the rest in the river. I'd have great disdain for that person even if they were a friend of mine.


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## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Someone with that kind of power? "Lord", I suppose.



Probably a bad analogy huh?


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> lol! No we don't handle snakes.
> 
> The glass is spiritually dead. Carnal feelings are against God, correct? They have no spiritual feelings and without spiritual feelings will not turn to God.
> 
> Funny analogy. First of all, who said it was just a few? I believe it to be more than the grains of sand on a beach. Using your analogy, God would be wrong if he didn't take EVERYBODY. He doesn't do that in a freewill doctrine.
> 
> If you guys want to believe you chose him, then brother that's great. All for it. Just shows me he chose you first.



I don't doubt that God chose me. I didn't chose myself. Where we differ is that I believe He chooses us all, it's just that some will respond and some won't.  I had enough gospel taught to me to recognize His calling. And I believe that's why we have to preach the gospel, no one can believe in something they know nothing about.

What happens to that glass when it's full? Does it preach the gospel or is the glass still dead?


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## stringmusic

Just doin' my part on gettin' this thread to 17 pages.


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## mtnwoman

stringmusic said:


> Just doin' my part on gettin' this thread to 17 pages.




lol...it sure has been a civil thread to be this long, I hope we all can glean something from it.


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## stringmusic

mtnwoman said:


> lol...it sure has been a civil thread to be this long, I hope we all can glean something from it.



Interesting to read, but I get a headache after so long reading the same things.....


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## CollinsCraft77

Oh we preach the gospel, which we all know means good news. Correct? Good news of what? 

Also, why do you question the Potter? Is God unjust if he decides to choose some and not others? Technically, he does just that in a freewill doctrine as well. But we look at those as the unsaved who rejected God and blame the man.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Oh we preach the gospel, which we all know means good news. Correct? Good news of what?
> 
> Also, why do you question the Potter? Is God unjust if he decides to choose some and not others? Technically, he does just that in a freewill doctrine as well. But we look at those as the unsaved who rejected God and blame the man.



The Jews are God's chosen people in the OT, will they all be saved?


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## stringmusic

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Oh we preach the gospel, which we all know means good news. Correct? Good news of what?
> 
> Also, why do you question the Potter? Is God unjust if he decides to choose some and not others? Technically, he does just that in a freewill doctrine as well. But we look at those as the unsaved who rejected God and blame the man.



Why do you think God would do this?


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Oh we preach the gospel, which we all know means good news. Correct? Good news of what?
> 
> Also, why do you question the Potter? Is God unjust if he decides to choose some and not others? Technically, he does just that in a freewill doctrine as well. But we look at those as the unsaved who rejected God and blame the man.



So we can blame God for not saving them instead of blaming the man?
It's not the man's fault God didn't chose him/her, is it?


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## CollinsCraft77

Why are you blaming God for anything? He would be just as just to not save any of us. 

My point was even if you look at it your way or our way, somebody still gets rejected. Correct? So is it easier to say well it's his fault he didn't choose God. And then he gets the punishment. And people are fine with that. But if someone says God, in his infinite wisdom and his righteousness decides to save some and not others, we "humans" then scream about how wrong it is. Why? Why would we question God? We all were born guilty due to Adam, correct? So we are guilty. In either doctrine, some are pardoned and some are not. Why would you question the maker of the Life if indeed he did choose some and not others?


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## ambush80

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Why are you blaming God for anything? He would be just as just to not save any of us.
> 
> My point was even if you look at it your way or our way, somebody still gets rejected. Correct? So is it easier to say well it's his fault he didn't choose God. And then he gets the punishment. And people are fine with that. But if someone says God, in his infinite wisdom and his righteousness decides to save some and not others, we "humans" then scream about how wrong it is. Why? Why would we question God? We all were born guilty due to Adam, correct? So we are guilty. In either doctrine, some are pardoned and some are not. Why would you question the maker of the Life if indeed he did choose some and not others?





gemcgrew said:


> Probably a bad analogy huh?



Yes.  I believe there is an analogy of a Potter that is more accurate.


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## CollinsCraft77

The Potter has power over the clay. 

Regardless, the hardest thing for men to absorb is when you tell someone they have no choice. Tell any person that and 99.9% of men will tell you they do. It's human nature.

However, at anytime election and predestination and foreknowledge, etc, etc is mentioned in the Bible, it is always according to God's will. Not I think  God meant this or knew I would do this. Then that would be God's will according to man's will thus putting man's will at a higher place than God. And if that's what people want to believe, then that's fine.

God's elect are who he chooses for whatever reason he saw fit and who am I to question it. He will call and you will come. No choice. 

That's what the Bible says to me. I think the Bible is a perfect book right up until the cover is opened because it is then that man's interpretations mess it all up. I just know when I open it it tells me that the Big Guy has it all in control and I feel no pressure to do anything more than to be his son. And I know he loves me despite what I do and this started long before the world began, without me doing anything good or bad. Why? I do not know.



Doctrine is doctrine is doctrine and we will never ever agree.


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## CollinsCraft77

My last statement about doctrine is meant the world as a whole, not people on this thread per se. As long as we people are here, there will be many different reasons and doctrines and so forth.


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## TimB

> Hebrews 11:6
> But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.




Someone tell me why that verse is in the bible. To the Calvinist no one without faith in God would even think of trying to please him and if we're already saved by election why would we need to "diligently seek" that which we already have?


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## ambush80

TimB said:


> Someone tell me why that verse is in the bible. To the Calvinist no one without faith in God would even think of trying to please him and if we're already saved by election why would we need to "diligently seek" that which we already have?




Because you don't know which one you are and it is your command: to plod on like a plow horse with blinders, putting one hoof in front of the other until the row is done.


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## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> Someone tell me why that verse is in the bible. To the Calvinist no one without faith in God would even think of trying to please him and if we're already saved by election why would we need to "diligently seek" that which we already have?



Without faith, it is impossible to please God. Those who are without faith are without Christ. Christ is all! He that cometh to God must believe that he is God, not just that there is a God. There is only one way to seek God and that is in Christ.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Why are you blaming God for anything? He would be just as just to not save any of us.
> 
> My point was even if you look at it your way or our way, somebody still gets rejected. Correct? So is it easier to say well it's his fault he didn't choose God. And then he gets the punishment. And people are fine with that. But if someone says God, in his infinite wisdom and his righteousness decides to save some and not others, we "humans" then scream about how wrong it is. Why? Why would we question God? We all were born guilty due to Adam, correct? So we are guilty. In either doctrine, some are pardoned and some are not. Why would you question the maker of the Life if indeed he did choose some and not others?



I know y'all hate John 3:16 and will post every verse in the bible but that one.

Tell me what John 3:16 means to you.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John is the gospel. Most of the rest of the books in the NT are on discipleship. What we should and shouldn't be doing.  Of course Paul is going to say, we the elect or we the chosen, because he is saved and talking to others who are saved....heads of the church. I'm saved, I am of the elect.  The bible clearly says, to believe and repent, that belief is not built into me ahead of time, or I wouldn't be dead in sin, would I?

Do I believe some people are chosen for a higher calling than mine, yes I do. Just like God pulled a shepherd boy out of the pasture to be a king, and sent Jonah off in a whale. God can make us do anything He wants us to do, and when He says His desire is for no man to perish, does He mean He will push that on all of us, of course not.  He calls us all, we either hear and respond or we don't.


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## JB0704

ambush80 said:


> Someone with that kind of power? "Lord", I suppose.



I had another adjective in mind, but I think the point was made.


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> lol! No we don't handle snakes.



Thanks, and I apologize for not knowing. 




CollinsCraft77 said:


> Funny analogy. First of all, who said it was just a few? I believe it to be more than the grains of sand on a beach. Using your analogy, God would be wrong if he didn't take EVERYBODY. He doesn't do that in a freewill doctrine.
> 
> If you guys want to believe you chose him, then brother that's great. All for it. Just shows me he chose you first.



I had no choice in whether I was born an American man or an African ant.  I get the original sin concept, but have difficulty squaring the punishment with the crime if I am "chosen."  We like to use the word "just," but that word does not fit into sending folks to he11 for being born.

Ambush brought up the potter and the clay.  I think that is a good thought, but did the potter make the vessel only to destroy it?  If you are right, then that is what is happening.  Am I questioning God, well, no, I am questioning your perspective on God, and you are welcome to question mine.

I appreciate your approach to this.  Too often we beat each other up on this forum.


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## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> I had no choice in whether I was born an American man or an African ant.  I get the original sin concept, but have difficulty squaring the punishment with the crime if I am "chosen."  We like to use the word "just," but that word does not fit into sending folks to he11 for being born.
> 
> Ambush brought up the potter and the clay.  I think that is a good thought, but did the potter make the vessel only to destroy it?  If you are right, then that is what is happening.  Am I questioning God, well, no, I am questioning your perspective on God, and you are welcome to question mine.



Agree


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## hummerpoo

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I am a Primitive Baptist.



Hey, must be quite a few PBs down there.  The church I've been attending for about a year had the paster move to a Ga. church in July and now have a new paster coming to Missouri from Ga.

How's that for off topic?


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## CollinsCraft77

Yeah, there are still a few.

Quote John 3:16 all day long. Look at the greek word for world. It can mean a little more than the earth as a whole. And every time you people see the word saved you automatically think eternally. 

I feel for you guys. I really do. I cant see how you guys can sleep at night or do anything during the day. I mean why arent you guys preaching 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week? Seriously, revivals every night. No little league games, watching tv, fishing, etc,etc. Wouldnt saving a lost world take a little more priority in ALL of your lives? Not just your pastor but all freewill people. 

But of course I dont believe the "world" is lost. Yep, Christ saved the World. He died for it, absolutely.

Think a little people. I'm going to the World of Coke to watch reruns of the Wide World of Sports. It's a special edition of  Sports in Third World Nations.

But I thought the word world meant the entire globe and all its inhabitants? Hmmmm.


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## ambush80

mtnwoman said:


> I know y'all hate John 3:16 and will post every verse in the bible but that one.
> 
> Tell me what John 3:16 means to you.
> 
> Matthew, Mark, Luke, John is the gospel. Most of the rest of the books in the NT are on discipleship. What we should and shouldn't be doing.  Of course Paul is going to say, we the elect or we the chosen, because he is saved and talking to others who are saved....heads of the church. I'm saved, I am of the elect.  The bible clearly says, to believe and repent, that belief is not built into me ahead of time, or I wouldn't be dead in sin, would I?
> 
> Do I believe some people are chosen for a higher calling than mine, yes I do. Just like God pulled a shepherd boy out of the pasture to be a king, and sent Jonah off in a whale. God can make us do anything He wants us to do, and when He says His desire is for no man to perish, does He mean He will push that on all of us, of course not.  He calls us all, we either hear and respond or we don't.



How do you know if He is using anybody?   Does it always have to be something dramatic like being swallowed by a whale?  What if He just made someone like me for instance, a vessel of wrath, created for the sole purpose of instilling doubt and testing faith.  How lucky am I?  Chosen.  Hand picked like Pharaoh.  I'm truly honored.


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## common man

Where we differ is that I believe He chooses us all, it's just that some will respond and some won't.

Mtnwoman this is from earlier and you are welcome to believe this statement above but can you show me that biblically.

Take what you are saying and read these tracts. 

Acts 13 verse 48

1 corinthians 1 verses 22-26

Romans 8 28-32.


If only believers in this world are justified and the justified are called, and all the called come to faith, can't you see their is a difference between a general call to salvation which would be you on the street corner or you telling your neighbor about Jesus and a special call to salvation described in the verses above. Once God goes after you that is it. 

Some of the called chose and some of the called did not. You can't put that against scripture. That's where it breaks down.

IF you put what you are saying you have to rewrite the scripture to match it. God drew them to a point and then some got in and some didn't. They believed and were appointed to eternal life. IT won't fit.


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## StriperAddict

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Look at the greek word for world. It can mean a little more than the earth as a whole.


 
You're on to something here, thanks.

If I remember correctly, the greek word for 'world' is like looking at the verse and when you come upon the word 'world' it's as if you can insert your own name there and read it as a personal note to you from God.  We don't have an english equivalent, so world was the word for it.  Me, I like to think of the personal touch, because since believing, that touch is a part of life daily.

Peace


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Can you give me the number for the timothy post.



post 728....and I invite any other input on this.  This is no different than taking Paul at his 'words'.
Do y'all practice what Timothy teaches, also?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Yeah, there are still a few.
> 
> Quote John 3:16 all day long. Look at the greek word for world. It can mean a little more than the earth as a whole. And every time you people see the word saved you automatically think eternally.
> 
> I feel for you guys. I really do. I cant see how you guys can sleep at night or do anything during the day. I mean why arent you guys preaching 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week? Seriously, revivals every night. No little league games, watching tv, fishing, etc,etc. Wouldnt saving a lost world take a little more priority in ALL of your lives? Not just your pastor but all freewill people.
> 
> But of course I dont believe the "world" is lost. Yep, Christ saved the World. He died for it, absolutely.
> 
> Think a little people. I'm going to the World of Coke to watch reruns of the Wide World of Sports. It's a special edition of  Sports in Third World Nations.
> 
> But I thought the word world meant the entire globe and all its inhabitants? Hmmmm.



Please just explain what this verse means...seems like most of the translations I looked up say almost the same thing, I guess it's hard to put it into other words.  Now don't forget this in the gospel scriptures. Paul is starting church not writing the gospel....he writes about the gospel, but he did not write the gospel.
This IS the gospel to me.


John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)
 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
 16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16
Amplified Bible (AMP)
16For God so greatly loved and dearly prized the world that He [even] gave up His only begotten ([a]unique) Son, so that whoever believes in (trusts in, clings to, relies on) Him shall not perish (come to destruction, be lost) but have eternal (everlasting) life.

John 3:16
Good News Translation (GNT)
16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.


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## mtnwoman

StriperAddict said:


> You're on to something here, thanks.
> 
> If I remember correctly, the greek word for 'world' is like looking at the verse and when you come upon the word 'world' it's as if you can insert your own name there and read it as a personal note to you from God.  We don't have an english equivalent, so world was the word for it.  Me, I like to think of the personal touch, because since believing, that touch is a part of life daily.
> 
> Peace



I do that a lot to children, I put their name where world is...and tell them God loves you just like He loves everyone else and offers His gift to all, and all includes you. It works great in a group of kids, because you can go around the table and say, and suzi, and bobby, and erin, and gary, and kim, etc etc


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I feel for you guys. I really do. I cant see how you guys can sleep at night or do anything during the day. I mean why arent you guys preaching 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week? Seriously, revivals every night. No little league games, watching tv, fishing, etc,etc. Wouldnt saving a lost world take a little more priority in ALL of your lives? Not just your pastor but all freewill people.



Really, wow! You're putting all that stuff above the great commission. Yes we should all be out preaching all the time. I just happen to believe ALL need to hear it, because they ALL need to hear it, to be able to believe.  I guess there's a lot fewer in your mind to hear it, so that means less work for you? alrighty then.

Isn't that what Paul did? You want to use Paul's words to justify your doctrine, then shouldn't you be doing what he did? Or you just do 'in part'?

Doesn't He/God/Jesus tell us to go into all the world preaching the gospel?

I can't go but I fund missionaries to go.....and I do believe they are specially called for that mission. If you believe what you say about God, He's got it covered, dontcha think?

Don't feel sorry for us, feel sorry for the ones you think are not going to be saved no matter what?

Peace on earth, and that goes for everyone, not just some.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Where we differ is that I believe He chooses us all, it's just that some will respond and some won't.
> 
> Mtnwoman this is from earlier and you are welcome to believe this statement above but can you show me that biblically.*This is from the gospel of Jesus Christ....it says whosoever believes, implying whoever doesn't believe will perish.
> *
> *John 3:16
> King James Version (KJV)
> 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.*
> 
> 
> 
> Take what you are saying and read these tracts.
> 
> Acts 13 verse 48
> 
> 1 corinthians 1 verses 22-26
> 
> Romans 8 28-32.
> 
> 
> If only believers in this world are justified and the justified are called, and all the called come to faith, can't you see their is a difference between a general call to salvation which would be you on the street corner or you telling your neighbor about Jesus and a special call to salvation described in the verses above. Once God goes after you that is it.
> 
> Some of the called chose and some of the called did not. You can't put that against scripture. That's where it breaks down.
> 
> IF you put what you are saying you have to rewrite the scripture to match it. God drew them to a point and then some got in and some didn't. They believed and were appointed to eternal life. IT won't fit.


*No actually you have to rewrite the gospel, changing whosoever, to 
 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, for His chosen who will believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. *

Please read post 728 and tell me if you also abide by all Timothy teaches, he was an underling of Paul, ya know.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> *No actually you have to rewrite the gospel, changing whosoever, to
> For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, for His chosen who will believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. *



Actually we don't. We know that the "whosoever believeth in him" are the objects of God's love.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Actually we don't. We know that the "whosoever believeth in him" are the objects of God's love.



Well we agree on something, hallelujah!!! 

I know He loves us. He also commands us to preach the gospel to the unbelievers, whom He also loves. Why put a limit on God's love? I don't get that.

But it also says for God so loved the world and we are not the world, we are only a part of the world, and God is no respector of persons.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Actually we don't. We know that the "whosoever believeth in him" are the objects of God's love.



Would you consider reading my post on Timothy..post 728 and since there is a whole doctrine practiced based on his writings, do you agree with that doctrine also? Women are to just be quiet.....I know most men wished we would........but do you agree with that chapter, since Paul was a teacher of Timothy and y'all believe everything Paul says and believes?

Or at least explain your take on the scripture?


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Would you consider reading my post on Timothy..post 728 and since there is a whole doctrine practiced based on his writings, do you agree with that doctrine also? Women are to just be quiet.....I know most men wished we would........but do you agree with that chapter, since Paul was a teacher of Timothy and y'all believe everything Paul says and believes?
> 
> Or at least explain your take on the scripture?



In the house of God, women are never to be put in a place of dominance over men. Godly women live in subjection to their husbands. They are not rebels to God or his Word. Just as men are to be in subjection to Christ and to all who are put in authority over them.


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## common man

Whosoever i absolutely agree with you Mtnwoman Greek, Hebrew, black, green, orange, woman, child, whoever calls on the name of the LORD will be saved. Totally agree.

Go into all the gospel and preach to ever living creature. Totally agree.

What you are leaving out is why?

But can you still explain how Romans 8 28-32 or Acts 13 verse 48, or a whole host of other scriptures can work based on what you are saying.

All the called come to faith. In no way does it contradict scripture to say on one hand whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved, and hold too the reason why these people believed "They had been appointed to eternal life".


----------



## common man

We also agree they all need to hear it. No one knows who the elect are.


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## common man

gemcgrew said:


> In the house of God, women are never to be put in a place of dominance over men. Godly women live in subjection to their husbands. They are not rebels to God or his Word. Just as men are to be in subjection to Christ and to all who are put in authority over them.





Would be my take as well?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> In the house of God, women are never to be put in a place of dominance over men. Godly women live in subjection to their husbands. They are not rebels to God or his Word. Just as men are to be in subjection to Christ and to all who are put in authority over them.



Yes, I know all that and agree. Men are called to love their wives as Christ loves the church. Nowhere does it say woman have to do anything but be submissive...concerning their husbands. 
If I was submissive to my 2nd husband, I would've been doing and selling cocaine. Does the scripture instruct that we be submissive to only a saved husband.....uh...nope it don't. But using common sense and rightly dividing the word, we know that we aren't suppose to be doing something that we know is wrong....right?  But I'm sure some would think that I'm wrong for not being submissive.

Do you think that women should learn in silence as Timothy says? (why did I know you wouldn't address that?)
Wasn't that a yoke from the OT? or do you think women are free, too. 

And I agree that there needs to be a headship over a woman teacher, I believe that, so how can she teach and be silent at the same time and have no opinion according to Timothy....did he not know there were women teachers and preachers of the word?

You know there is a doctrine based on that very chapter, where women, can't wear makeup, nor jewelry and have to let their hair grow...yet it isn't in the gospel. I believe it's leftover Jewish tradition from the OT....but that's just me. And I feel that same way about some of Paul's attitudes....as he was always of the chosen, what a lucky man. Chosen when he was a jew and chosen when he became a Christian.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I know He loves us. He also commands us to preach the gospel to the unbelievers, whom He also loves.



I understand you believe that God loves everybody. Even those suffering in he11. I believe God’s love is specifically and distinctively toward his elect alone.



mtnwoman said:


> God is no respector of persons.



I notice you keep saying this. I assume you are referring to Acts 10:34. These words do not mean that God treats all men alike in providence and grace. He does not.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> We also agree they all need to hear it. No one knows who the elect are.



So God can't just send the chosen to listen? Why do we have to do all that preachin' to those who aren't going to be saved anyway, when we could be preachin' to someone who will accept? 
And besides that, if we're presaved, we're presaved and we'll come to salvation by His calling only....because He wills it. What am I afraid that a 'chosen' person is not gonna make it? If they are chosen they are chosen. 
Like someone else said, I could be out fishin'.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Do you think that women should learn in silence as Timothy says? (why did I know you wouldn't address that?)



Actually, I did address it.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> So God can't just sends the chosen to listen? Why do we have to do all that preachin' to those who aren't going to be saved anyway, when we could be preachin' to someone who will accept?
> 
> I'll just go with God commands it.
> 
> And besides that, if we're presaved, we're presaved and we'll come to salvation by His calling only....because He wills it. What am I afraid that a 'chosen' person is not gonna make it? If they are chosen they are chosen.
> Like someone else said, I could be out fishin'.



I'll just go with God commands it


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I understand you believe that God loves everybody. Even those suffering in he11. I believe God’s love is specifically and distinctively toward his elect alone.*Actually no I don't, I believe those that are lost are forgotton, I just don't believe that they were put aside before they refused God. If God, for example, chose for a certain person not to be saved and when they were 3 yrs old, they died, do you believe that that went to hades? I don't. Because I don't think they understood the choice they had to believe...I just don't accept that.*
> 
> 
> 
> I notice you keep saying this. I assume you are referring to Acts 10:34. These words do not mean that God treats all men alike in providence and grace. He does not.


 Well I guess not, that isn't in the gospel anyway. Maybe I should just stick with the gospel Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. 

I'll read the passage and in the mean time, why don't you tell me what not being a respector of person means? Good thing Peter wasn't right about being prejudice towards the gentiles or you and I would be 'not' chosen.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Actually, I did address it.



No you didn't....you just expressed that a woman should be submissive or not teach without a headship of a men. But Timothy doesn't say that, he says women should learn in silence....do you believe that? Please just go exactly of what the scripture says as you do when you're reading Paul's scripture.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I understand you believe that God loves everybody. Even those suffering in he11. I believe God’s love is specifically and distinctively toward his elect alone.
> 
> 
> 
> I notice you keep saying this. I assume you are referring to Acts 10:34. These words do not mean that God treats all men alike in providence and grace. He does not.



Perfect example....he that feareth Him...doesn't say a thing about he who God chooseth. That's why I keep saying it.
Acts 10:34-35
King James Version (KJV)


 34Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 

 35But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Actually no I don't, I believe those that are lost are forgotton, I just don't believe that they were put aside before they refused God.



So you believe that God loved them, up until their death. Correct?





mtnwoman said:


> If God, for example, chose for a certain person not to be saved and when they were 3 yrs old, they died, do you believe that that went to hades?



Of coarse they did if God did not save them.




mtnwoman said:


> I don't. Because I don't think they understood the choice they had to believe...I just don't accept that.



Of coarse you don't, because you place so much emphasis on "choice".


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> No you didn't....you just expressed that a woman should be submissive or not teach without a headship of a men. But Timothy doesn't say that, he says women should learn in silence....do you believe that? Please just go exactly of what the scripture says as you do when you're reading Paul's scripture.



I said "They are not rebels to God or his Word." I think that covered it.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Perfect example....he that feareth Him...doesn't say a thing about he who God chooseth. That's why I keep saying it.



Actually, it does. "He that feareth Him" is referring to a believer.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> So you believe that God loved them, up until their death. Correct?
> 
> *I believe God loves all of His creation, I don't believe He creates people to just send them to hades. What is God's desire in this great creation?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of coarse they did if God did not save them.*Wow. God looked at a baby like baby Jesus and said, off to hades you go?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of coarse you don't, because you place so much emphasis on "choice".



Oh well....God said it...whosoever will believe

I guess you're thinking in your mind, I wish she(me) would just shut up, that's what Timothy said, to just be silent. Good for me I don't believe that. God is no respector of persons, male or female as far as salvation goes, anyway.
I could just shut up and watch tv....since I don't have a little leaguer to go watch....lol.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Actually, it does. "He that feareth Him" is referring to a believer.



Well of course it does....God says of every nation, meaning world, meaning whosoever feareth Him...meaning anybody. Says nothing for those who God chose to feareth Him....it's for anyone who wills to feareth Him.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Wow. God looked at a baby like baby Jesus and said, off to hades you go?



No, baby Jesus was sinless.





mtnwoman said:


> I guess you're thinking in your mind, I wish she(me) would just shut up, that's what Timothy said, to just be silent. Good for me I don't believe that. God is no respector of persons, male or female as far as salvation goes, anyway.
> I could just shut up and watch tv....since I don't have a little leaguer to go watch....lol.



Actually, I enjoy discussing these important matters with you.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> No, baby Jesus was sinless.
> 
> *Do you really think a 3 yr old is not sinless? at least as far as a choice on their part. They don't even have a chance in hades for salvation because God did not chose them to believe?
> 
> 
> *
> 
> 
> Actually, I enjoy discussing these important matters with you.



That's why I'm here too, I enjoy discussing these matters with you, too. It keeps me in the word...searching, seeking, and panting for my Lord's life giving water.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Do you really think a 3 yr old is not sinless?



Yes, scripture is very clear on that.



mtnwoman said:


> They don't even have a chance in hades for salvation because God did not chose them to believe?



Nobody has a chance if God does not choose for them to believe.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, scripture is very clear on that.
> 
> 
> 
> Nobody has a chance if God does not choose for them to believe.




I remember when I was in jr high school, that I never got chosen to play ball.  I had brothers and I knew how to play but I wasn't chosen for whatever reason. Maybe I wasn't popular enough, maybe the teacher didn't think I was aggressive enough, I don't know. But I could kick some behind on kick ball, or softball and even basketball, but I never got chosen even though I wanted to be and I opted to try out for those things. There was no try out, they had their 'chosen' before any of us ever tried out. 

That's why I believe God is different than that. I believe I have as much of a chance as anyone else, if I choose to run the race that it takes to be in God's favor and to be loved by Him.  It's hard for me to imagine that God is the same as those that never gave me a chance, believing that God's way is not our way.  Maybe I am wrong in believing that God's telling me I am an overcomer, that Annie too can be saved if she believes and repents. Maybe I'm wrong in telling anyone that all they have to do is believe and repent, because in reality they have to be chosen.
That makes me very sad.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> that Annie too can be saved if she believes and repents. Maybe I'm wrong in telling anyone that all they have to do is believe and repent, because in reality they have to be chosen.
> That makes me very sad.



Nobody is saved without believing and repenting. The difference is that salvation is not acquired by either but both are a result of salvation.

I have to get up early in the morning. You have a good night.


----------



## G5BONECRUSHER

gemcgrew said:


> Nobody is saved without believing and repenting. The difference is that salvation is not acquired by either but both are a result of salvation.
> 
> I have to get up early in the morning. You have a good night.



You are correct. No one is saved without repentance and belief...

 Where is the scripture that says "belief is a result of salvation"?

Then why is the Gosple the power of God for salvation?

 Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

If your view were correct it would read being born one of the elect is the power of God for salvation.


John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; *31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life (Salvation) in his name.*

Clearly salvation comes "by believing". Are you saying this scripture is incorrect?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Nobody is saved without believing and repenting. The difference is that salvation is not acquired by either but both are a result of salvation.
> 
> I have to get up early in the morning. You have a good night.



So I have salvation first, then I believe and repent?

The jews in the OT believe their redemption came after they sacrificed a lamb, they sacrificed a lamb to say to God that they believed they would be atoned AFTER their sacrifice of a lamb not before. Why not spare the lamb? if salvation came first?

God chose His son to be the sacrifice for sin, not just for us (the saved as of today)...but for all of us. Why belittle the work on the cross, that Jesus only died for some? I just don't get it at all. I can't even go there. I believe the power of the crusifiction and the resurrection can resurrect all of us from being dead in sin  Was the 500 witnesses raised in the resurrection saved? How could they be if they hadn't believed (the gospel) and repented which they probably did before death with a lamb other than Jesus.  Christ did it all...for all of us. 
Yes and in hindsight we the elect, Christ died for us who chose to believe, but the world hasn't ended yet and until then we all have a chance.


----------



## hummerpoo

mtnwoman said:


> Why put a limit on God's love?



The companion question is "Why put a limit on God's justness?"

Trying not to forget that we can not truely understand God, it comes down to "What is the defining characteristic of God?"

I would suggest that, in human terms, what defines God is His holiness, which then allows us to understand both His love and His justice.

Unlimited love does not allow justice.  

Unlimited justice does not allow love.  

Pure holiness demands both.


----------



## gtparts

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> You are correct. No one is saved without repentance and belief...
> 
> Where is the scripture that says "belief is a result of salvation"?
> 
> Then why is the Gosple the power of God for salvation?
> 
> Romans 1:16For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 17For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."
> 
> If your view were correct it would read being born one of the elect is the power of God for salvation.
> 
> 
> John 20:30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; *31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life (Salvation) in his name.*
> 
> Clearly salvation comes "by believing". Are you saying this scripture is incorrect?





mtnwoman said:


> So I have salvation first, then I believe and repent?
> 
> The jews in the OT believe their redemption came after they sacrificed a lamb, they sacrificed a lamb to say to God that they believed they would be atoned AFTER their sacrifice of a lamb not before. Why not spare the lamb? if salvation came first?
> 
> God chose His son to be the sacrifice for sin, not just for us (the saved as of today)...but for all of us. Why belittle the work on the cross, that Jesus only died for some? I just don't get it at all. I can't even go there. I believe the power of the crusifiction and the resurrection can resurrect all of us from being dead in sin  Was the 500 witnesses raised in the resurrection saved? How could they be if they hadn't believed (the gospel) and repented which they probably did before death with a lamb other than Jesus.  Christ did it all...for all of us.
> Yes and in hindsight we the elect, Christ died for us who chose to believe, but the world hasn't ended yet and until then we all have a chance.



I agree. Salvation (from God) before "belief" and "repentance" is clearly (from Scripture) "putting the cart before the horse-thinking". God is the source of faith, which God gives, in some measure, to every living soul. Acting on that faith is belief. Belief leads to repentance. It is all over His Word, yet some seem to ignore it.

Thankfully, the things that are important to "have right" can be understood by Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike, without the need to be "right" on much of the points brought up in this thread!

Peace to all. (Yes, that is the desire of God's heart, God's peace to every soul, not just a select sub-group.)


----------



## Israel

A man may have freedom in much. But one thing he may never be free of is being a creature...he is always...and in every way circumscribed completely by the creator of him.
When we speak of the nature of man...it is always and only defined according to the maker of men.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Jesus came to save that which was lost. Correct?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Jesus came to save that which was lost. Correct?



and who's lost? all or part?


----------



## common man

Would you consider rejecting the son of God a sin?


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Would you consider rejecting the son of God a sin?



Not until the rapture comes.

I rejected Christ/God AFTER I was saved. But He said nothing will snatch you out of the palm of my hand, nothing including sin.  I still believed in God/Jesus but I was hiding like a lost lamb hiding in darkness and sin, but He always knew where I was, for 30 some years, He knew where I was. I knew I was lost sorta, but didn't know where I stood with Him. He left the ninety and nine and came and got me....hallelujah to the lamb of God. When He snatched me back, in hindsight, I understood it all....all for a witness/testimony to mostly young women who are lost like I once was. I can say to them, I know exactly how you feel, I've been there. Thank you Lord for my testamony, even though it was a tortureous, lonely, sad, evil life I had to go thru, to be able to help others in the same lifestyle....I thank Him....I've cursed Him, but I'm over that. I thank Him for where I am now, eyes wide open, heart wide open and willing to launch out into the deep to rescue the lost, disregarding what others think. I gotta go get them, they aren't going to jump into my Jesus net because they were chosen to do so...they choose to jump in because they are willing to believe and repent for the promise of eternal life with Christ.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

I ask again. Jesus came to save that which was lost. Correct?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> they choose to jump in because they are willing to believe and repent for the promise of eternal life with Christ.



"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom 3:12) 

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Rom 9:16-18)


----------



## common man

MTnwoman my point about asking the sin question was not based at you but at some one who ultimately does not put their faith in Christ. One argument is It's not their sin which sends them to :nono::nono::nono::nono: but they rejected the son of God. I was just trying to show you that rejecting the son of God is a sin. So now what do we have Jesus died for everyone including all the sins of everyone who do not believen in him including rejection we have everyone going to heaven which both you and I would agree is not going to happen or that Christ died only for the sins of the elect.

What you have to realize is that election does not exclude anyone who wants in to heaven.  People who want Jesus have the desire for Jesus only because it was given to them.

As in earlier posts you say you think he calls everyone.  Then why do you and I come to faith and they don't.  If their are ones he calls and then they don't respond how can you make any sense of Romans 8 verse 28-32 or 1 Corinthians 1 22-26.  The call had an effect on those people coming to faith and the scripture clearly states they all came to faith and there were no dropouts.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> So now what do we have Jesus died for everyone including all the sins of everyone who do not believen in him including rejection we have everyone going to heaven which both you and I would agree is not going to happen or that Christ died only for the sins of the elect.



You must not be reading my posts....I've said probably 300 times that you have to believe and repent to be saved, I've never said nor do I believe everyone will go to heaven. You are getting that because you are saying that whoever God chooses will be saved, but I disagree.  God chooses for no one to perish, but they will, the ones that deny Christ. He did not pick a go to hades line and a go to heaven line before we were born. He knows if we will be saved because He knows everything. But when we choose to believe and repent we accept the gift given to all of us. Not everyone will do that.

Jesus died for the sins of the world that whosoever (not all but just whosover) believeth in Him will be saved. You have to believe and repent before you can be saved. God didn't choose/save us without our will to believe and repent. But Jesus died for anyone who WILL believe and repent.
Where do y'all get out of that, that I'm saying everyone will go to heaven? The only ones that will go to heaven are those that accept the gift of the cross, by believing and repenting.

Y'all are stuck on that thing about we're saying everyone will go to heaven, but that's only because you believe that God chose some people to perish and some to be saved. I believe that only some will go to heaven and some will perish, I just believe that God gave us free will to believe and repent....and if we don't then we will be eternally seperated from Him because we did not choose to follow Him home.

Doubled-up my stance on that post...


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I ask again. Jesus came to save that which was lost. Correct?



Yes, We were all lost at one time, everyone in the world is/was lost. Correct? So He came to save that which was lost and that is everyone.

Who do you say is/was lost?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Rom 3:12)



Actually, why don't you use the entire text instead of building a doctrine one a verse here and there. If you read that entire chapter of Romans, it explains clearly that everyone has sinned, no one seeks God, and therefore God gave Jesus for all, gentiles and jews alike....for all....

Not all will believe and repent, few Jews did at that time, right?  They will, but not yet....well some of them will and they are God's chosen. What did He blind them from? Why did He need to blind them?

Isn't that why we are to preach the gospel? What does the gospel do? why preach it? I was raised on the gospel, those people that Paul is talking to were not...how could they seek a God they never heard of? I don't understand why you don't see a difference in people today that have heard the gospel most of their life, whether they believe it or not, and those people who never knew to seek God or knew who Jesus was, nor His gospel.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

you still have not answered the question. It is not who is/was lost.

The simple yes or no question was did Jesus come to save that which was lost? I will assume you will say yes.

My next question to you is did Jesus save that which was lost? Did he accomplish and complete his work? A simple yes or no answer please.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> You must not be reading my posts....I've said probably 300 times that you have to believe and repent to be saved, I've never said nor do I believe everyone will go to heaven. You are getting that because you are saying that whoever God chooses will be saved, but I disagree.  God chooses for no one to perish, but they will, the ones that deny Christ. He did not pick a go to hades line and a go to heaven line before we were born. He knows if we will be saved because He knows everything. But when we choose to believe and repent we accept the gift given to all of us. Not everyone will do that.
> 
> Jesus died for the sins of the world that whosoever (not all but just whosover) believeth in Him will be saved. You have to believe and repent before you can be saved. God didn't choose/save us without our will to believe and repent. But Jesus died for anyone who WILL believe and repent.
> Where do y'all get out of that, that I'm saying everyone will go to heaven? The only ones that will go to heaven are those that accept the gift of the cross, by believing and repenting.
> 
> Y'all are stuck on that thing about we're saying everyone will go to heaven, but that's only because you believe that God chose some people to perish and some to be saved. I believe that only some will go to heaven and some will perish, I just believe that God gave us free will to believe and repent....and if we don't then we will be eternally seperated from Him because we did not choose to follow Him home.
> 
> Doubled-up my stance on that post...



MTnwoman I'm just trying to show you that rejecting the son of God itself is a SIN.


----------



## common man

As in earlier posts you say you think he calls everyone. Then why do you and I come to faith and they don't. If their are ones he calls and then they don't respond how can you make any sense of Romans 8 verse 28-32 or 1 Corinthians 1 22-26. The call had an effect on those people coming to faith and the scripture clearly states they all came to faith and there were no dropouts. 

Can you still answer what I said above that the call effects faith?

By what you are saying God draws everyone to a certain point and then you and I did something better than someone else. I don't see that biblically.

The call effects faith and there are no dropouts.

Just pointing out the reason people believe and repent biblically are because of GOD not something in them. Ephesians 2 and 2 timothy 2 verse 25.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> you still have not answered the question. It is not who is/was lost.
> 
> The simple yes or no question was did Jesus come to save that which was lost? I will assume you will say yes.
> 
> My next question to you is did Jesus save that which was lost? Did he accomplish and complete his work? A simple yes or no answer please.



You are not asking a question that can be answered by yes or no...unless it's some kind of trick question.

As gemcgrew posted....all were lost...that is what I believe. 

Will all be saved, no. Did Jesus complete His work for the salvation for all, yes He completed His work on the cross.,....but that is where our belief and repentence comes in...everyone will not choose to believe and repent. That is what we have to believe isn't it? that Christ died on the cross for 'my sin'....I believed and I repented, that makes me saved. I'm no longer lost, I am of God's elect now, that I've done what He ask me to do. Everyone won't do that, they will remain lost until/if they do.

We are God's elect because He wanted all of us to be, except one thing, all will not believe and repent, those will stay lost and will never become of the elect.  His word says that He doesn't want anyone to perish, but they will, because of unbelief and no repentence.

That was the deal God gave us, believe and repent in my Son Jesus that I gave you for your atonement for sin, or stay lost.

Why did God blind the Jews, temporarily?


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> By what you are saying God draws everyone to a certain point and then you and I did something better than someone else. I don't see that biblically.



Really, well I did something better than the unsaved, I obeyed God by believing and repenting. I don't get why you don't see that. 

That's what I've been telling you this whole time, how can I be chosen just to be chosen, especially when I was amongst the unsaved. We have all sinned and fallen short....all I did was believe and repent. That's it. God wants to save all of His creation, not just a person here and there??? makes no sense. He gave us all the choice, to believe or not, to repent or not.  Isn't that what the gospel teaches us?

Why are we preachin' the gospel? If I started at Acts and Romans, etc and started learning from that point, I might believe as you do. But I've got the gospel that tells me differently.  You are preachin' what we should do as Christians, that's who Paul is talking to....discipling them. They already surrendered to the gospel.

Why do you never post anything about what the gospel says? It's always what Paul says.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

It is a yes or no question. Either Jesus completed his work or he didnt. Either he saved that which was lost or he didnt. 

Now, did Jesus complete his work and save that which was lost or didnt he?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Perhaps one day you will see that you believe because you were elect instead of elect because you believe.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> MTnwoman I'm just trying to show you that rejecting the son of God itself is a SIN.



Well what difference does that make? If the unsaved are sinners and if what you say is a sin, too, then what difference does that make? They are still unsaved, and lost...right? Just add another sin on their millions of other sins.

Actually what you were saying in your post was that I was saying that ALL will be saved....I've never said that. I just said God doesn't want any one to perish, that's why He gave His Son Jesus. He died for all the sins in the world, and if we believe that is what God sent Jesus to do and we repent for our own sins, then we will be saved.

We have to believe what Jesus work was on the cross, and then repent of our sins. That is what the gospel tells us. Forget Paul for a second and read the gospel, we are NOT saved based on what Paul says. That is a very scary doctrine. We need to be preaching the gospel, and that's what we're called to believe....right or wrong?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Perhaps one day you will see that you believe because you were elect instead of elect because you believe.



Not as long as I believe in the gospel instead of the teachings of Paul. Just be careful of what you are telling folks to believe in when you tell them to believe and repent. If they believe the wrong thing they aren't believing the right thing.

Just like JWS, they can peddle til the cows come home, salvation is not from works....as they and many others would like to believe.


----------



## mtnwoman

John 11:24-26
King James Version (KJV)


 24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 

 25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


John 12:45-47
King James Version (KJV)


 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 

 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 

 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

John 14:11-13
King James Version (KJV)


 11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 

 12Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. 

 13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 16:26-28
King James Version (KJV)


 26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: 

 27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. 

 28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Much much more in the gospel that tells us what Jesus says about what to believe. God loves us because we love Jesus, not because God loved and chose us to love Jesus.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

So you only believe in parts of the Bible, not all? Oh dear. Actually read the 17 chapter of John. Good place to start.


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## CollinsCraft77

By the way, just for my curiousity, what denomination are you?


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> By the way, just for my curiousity, what denomination are you?



Baptist, and you?


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> So you only believe in parts of the Bible, not all? Oh dear. Actually read the 17 chapter of John. Good place to start.



Now where did that come from? You don't believe in the whole bible because you don't post all the scriptures? 

When it comes to believing and repenting, I believe what the gospel says, that is Jesus talking.

Isn't that what we are talking about? are we speaking of the entire Bible, right now? Aren't we talking about believing and repenting. I  believe what Jesus says, He was born perfect, not Paul, not Noah, not Moses, not John, not Timothy. Just Jesus. If you want to talk about another part of the bible start a thread.

This is exactly what my son in law does, when he don't have an answer he goes off some tantrum about what about such and such...and that we leave this and that out.

I believe in the gospel, that's what we are suppose to believe to be saved....yeah or nay?  
So you don't believe in the gospel?


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Really, well I did something better than the unsaved, I obeyed God by believing and repenting. I don't get why you don't see that.



"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Ephesians 2:8,9)



That grace is extended to whosoever will receive it. Not all of us will. Jews are 'God's chosen' and they will tell you that, they are boasting. They don't have to accept the gospel, for they are chosen. That to me is boasting. I mean they don't believe that they have to believe the gospel, they are prechosen, are they saved yet, no, only the messianic jews are saved, the ones that have believed so far.

I am not special because I believe I was chosen over someone else, I believe that God/Jesus told me how to be saved. I was obedient in believing and repenting because I was so overcome with the gospel that I heard, and that's why I believe we preach the gospel, because that is the 'living word' of God/Jesus and that is what brings us to salvation. I was rendered helpless to His calling thru the gospel, not because He prechose me.


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## CollinsCraft77

Yea maam. I do believe in the Gospel which we all know means Good News. However, either all the Books are in agreement, or they are not. If they are not, then God's Word is erroneous. 

And by the way, you might want to research Baptist Church history. You might be surprised that the Baptist you are is relatively new to the church scene. I am a Primitve Baptist, also called an Old School Baptist or even a hard shell Baptist. Why? Because we still hold to the traditional Baptist's beliefs. You are called New School Baptist because at one time, no Baptist believed in such stuff. Sorry. What you think is Baptist, well, it isnt.


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## CollinsCraft77

I bet you sing Amazing Grace. You know Newton, the guy who wrote that song, believed as I do. You know election and predestination and such. Now sing it knowing that and the meaning of the song is different knowing God chooses and you dont.

Also, as seems to be a pattern, you never answered my question. Did Jesus finish the work he came to do? Did he save that which was lost?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Yea maam. I do believe in the Gospel which we all know means Good News. However, either all the Books are in agreement, or they are not. If they are not, then God's Word is erroneous.
> 
> And by the way, you might want to research Baptist Church history. You might be surprised that the Baptist you are is relatively new to the church scene. I am a Primitve Baptist, also called an Old School Baptist or even a hard shell Baptist. Why? Because we still hold to the traditional Baptist's beliefs. You are called New School Baptist because at one time, no Baptist believed in such stuff. Sorry. What you think is Baptist, well, it isnt.



Then I suppose you believe that women should learn in silence according to timothy, right? and that's a yes or no question.

I don't need to research church history. I believe the gospel when it comes to what we are to believe to be saved. Jesus says nowhere that He prechose us. Why would He go thru all He went thru on the cross for people who are prechosen to be saved? 

This is why I keep the gospel simple, because if you go outside of that, you could debate every scripture in the Bible, or somebody would. You've got to tithe, you can't wear lipstick, you can't preach the gospel if you're a woman, you gotta go door to door, you gotta memorize the torah, you can't dance like david danced, divorce is a sin no matter what etc etc. Why do you say that I don't believe the entire Bible because I don't believe as you do?

You either preach the gospel or you bring a bunch of other scripture in that has no bearing on what we are suppose to believe in to be saved.  We aren't even commanded to preach the gospel until we are saved...eh?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Did Jesus finish the work he came to do? Did he save that which was lost?



Ok, no then, but it ain't over is it? Do you really think that everyone who is ever gonna be saved is already saved? You know that cannot be. 

His work is done on the cross, but we are still a work in progress, and if the work was done, do we need to preach the gospel? So I can't say the work is done yet, until we do what the Jesus in us tells us what to do. As far as the Jesus part, yes, it is finished. But until all who are gonna be saved are saved then we are not done. That has to apply to both of our stances, unless you think all have been saved already. Do you? I don't and that's why we still preach the gospel until our last breath, not because they are already saved before they believe and repent...no one is saved until they believe and repent, no one.


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## CollinsCraft77

Yes I believe that. And no, Jesus said he would save those whom the Father gives him AND HE LOSES NONE! Imagine that.

And the question for the third time, did Jesus complete his mission or not? Do you believe in the finished work of Christ?


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## CollinsCraft77

Ok. You finally answered. Good. So when he died, you believe he took everyones sins and took the place for everyone sins. Correct?


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ok. You finally answered. Good. So when he died, you believe he took everyones sins and took the place for everyone sins. Correct?



It says He took the sins of the world, so yes, I believe He took everyones sins on Himself, and that they will be saved IF they believe and repent that He did. That's exactly what the gospel says...IF you...

I believe that He died for my sins, your sins, bob's sins, mary's sins, joanne's sin....that is our gift to be forgiven of our sins and be saved IF we believe and repent. Will everyone believe, no, will everyone repent, no. Is it available for anyone who will receive yes, but they all won't.

Jesus said we would be saved IF we believe and repent. He didn't name names....just whosoever will. My name was written in the book of life, AFTER I believed and repented, not before.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

If he took ALL your sins, then how is it you could be punished? Sin of unbelief? But didnt he take that sin too? So are you now saying that while he took all your sin, he didnt take that one? Totally illogical.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> If he took ALL your sins, then how is it you could be punished? Sin of unbelief? But didnt he take that sin too? So are you now saying that while he took all your sin, he didnt take that one? Totally illogical.



Huh? I don't quite get what you're asking. I'll attempt to answer though.

Jesus said it was finished, right? That means it was finished 2000 yrs ago, right? 
You're the one saying that unbelief is a sin, not me.
Unbelief is a choice....once again...Jesus said, whosoever believes and repents will have everlasting life and be saved. Doesn't matter if you sin or not, for we all have sinned, right? But if you then believe and repent, He is faithful to save us. Right?


You are saying that no matter what if you're chosen, doesn't matter about your sin, you WILL be saved, because you are chosen. Same mindset as the Jews. Yet they have not believed and repented, but they too believe they are chosen and will be saved. Do you honestly believe that ALL the Jews will be saved because they are chosen? Or do you believe they will be saved if they believe and repent....can't go both ways.


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## CollinsCraft77

Is not adultery a choice?


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## CollinsCraft77

Actually your belief in Mans Power to choose is more in line with the Jews who seek to show their righteousness by their choices.


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## CollinsCraft77

Well if Jesus said it was finished, then why wasnt it?


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## common man

unbelief or rejecting the Son of God would definitely be sin.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Well if Jesus said it was finished, then why wasnt it?



It was.

No more sacrificing of lambs for atonement in each household. God said in the OT, that He would provide Himself a lamb for atonement and He did that was Jesus Christ.  Once and for all we have atonement, if we believe and repent.

We have to believe that though and repent for our sins...all we have to do is believe Christ is who He says He is, and repent(ask for forgiveness/acknowledge our sinfulness)...Jesus did His part and we have to do ours, according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Do you believe that it is finished by believing that all of the 'chosen' have believed and repented, thus meaning the preaching of the gospel is finished? It's not finished on our part....or maybe you think it is...I don't know...I don't really know what you believe.

Even Paul said to preach the gospel, again I ask you for the 45th time, why would we have to preach the gospel, if it was all finished on our part, with Christ's death on the cross?

I believe we will not be done until the rapture comes...there will be some, God's chosen, who will be saved after that....the Jews....some of them.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> Not as long as I believe in the gospel instead of the teachings of Paul. Just be careful of what you are telling folks to believe in when you tell them to believe and repent. If they believe the wrong thing they aren't believing the right thing.
> 
> Just like JWS, they can peddle til the cows come home, salvation is not from works....as they and many others would like to believe.



Why can't you believe the gospel and the teachings of Paul? I don't see any conflict here between those two.


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> It was.
> 
> No more sacrificing of lambs for atonement in each household. God said in the OT, that He would provide Himself a lamb for atonement and He did that was Jesus Christ.  Once and for all we have atonement, if we believe and repent.
> 
> We have to believe that though and repent for our sins...all we have to do is believe Christ is who He says He is, and repent(ask for forgiveness/acknowledge our sinfulness)...Jesus did His part and we have to do ours, according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.
> 
> Do you believe that it is finished by believing that all of the 'chosen' have believed and repented, thus meaning the preaching of the gospel is finished? It's not finished on our part....or maybe you think it is...I don't know...I don't really know what you believe.
> 
> Even Paul said to preach the gospel, again I ask you for the 45th time, why would we have to preach the gospel, if it was all finished on our part, with Christ's death on the cross?
> 
> I believe we will not be done until the rapture comes...there will be some, God's chosen, who will be saved after that....the Jews....some of them.



We preach the gospel because GOD commands it. In no way does that conflict with the doctrines of grace that the elect will hear it and respond. ANd that work is solely of God so he gets all the glory and praise.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> unbelief or rejecting the Son of God would definitely be sin.



Ok, what would it matter though? If they didn't believe or repent they are carrying their own sin which results in death, right?

If you wanna say it's sin, then ok...I'm all about eternal life in Christ when we believe.  I can't make someone believe and repent, I can only give them the gospel, and why do that if they are prechosen to be lost. My hope lies in Christ/God and His new convenant with us. The old covenant tells us that God had His chosen...we don't live in the OT. We live in the new covenant when Christ say I not only died for the Jews but I died for the entire world...and that's why the Jews were temporarily blinded to graft the rest of us into the vine....does the graft always take....of course not...only if we believe and repent are we grafted in.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> We preach the gospel because GOD commands it. In no way does that conflict with the doctrines of grace that the elect will hear it and respond. ANd that work*we are not saved by works.* is solely of God so he gets all the glory and praise.



Grace and mercy is for 'whosoever believeth' and repents.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Why can't you believe the gospel and the teachings of Paul? I don't see any conflict here between those two.



Really? Paul isn't preaching the gospel to those who are already saved, he is discipleing those who have been saved how to preach the gospel.
He is NOT speaking nor letter writing to the unsaved, he is speaking to the already saved...telling them how to lead others to Christ. He was chosen to be a leader in the church...not all of us are chosen to do that.

If you believe everything Paul is telling the churches, why are you not out there on the other side of the world preaching the gospel? He's not telling us HOW to be saved....he's talking to the saved...he's telling us how to lead the unsaved to salvation.  And yes, after we are saved we can be chosen to do certain things that God wants us to do....He doesn't call the unsaved to be missionaries nor elects nor chooses them. They have to be saved before God chooses/elects them to do something, just like Jonah. Jonah already believed in God...God didn't make Jonah believe, He chose Jonah to preach the gospel and God was serious about it.


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## CollinsCraft77

It is to share the good news. Pretty simple.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> We preach the gospel because GOD commands it. In no way does that conflict with the doctrines of grace that the elect will hear it and respond. ANd that work is solely of God so he gets all the glory and praise.



Yes, He commands the saved to preach the gospel. He doesn't chose the unsaved to preach the gospel, therefore making them 'chosen' and saved at the same time. 
He chooses the already saved to do His bidding, therefore they are His chosen...and we cannot resist...because He has become our Father.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> It is to share the good news. Pretty simple.



Yes, I like simple.


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## common man

mtnwoman said:


> Ok, what would it matter though? If they didn't believe or repent they are carrying their own sin which results in death, right?
> 
> If you wanna say it's sin, then ok...I'm all about eternal life in Christ when we believe.  I can't make someone believe and repent, I can only give them the gospel, and why do that if they are prechosen to be lost. My hope lies in Christ/God and His new convenant with us. The old covenant tells us that God had His chosen...we don't live in the OT. We live in the new covenant when Christ say I not only died for the Jews but I died for the entire world...and that's why the Jews were temporarily blinded to graft the rest of us into the vine....does the graft always take....of course not...only if we believe and repent are we grafted in.



The point is God could not have died for their sins including unbelief. He died only for the elect.

One thought you have no rejection at all of God revealing himself to a single group of people in the old testament but you do have a problem with God only revealing himself to certain people now.  Was God so unfair in the old testament?  When you read Romans 9 even if you want to say that was not based on individuals which the scripture plainly says you still end up with God working through a group or person not based on somthing they had done whether good or bad.

You simply cant read Chapter 9 and say it was based on anything in them but only for God's purposes


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## CollinsCraft77

Listen, Foreknew. Right? He predestinated (chose ). Right? He called. He conformed. He justified. Thats Bible. Jesus says all that the Father GIVES him WILL come and he will LOSE NONE. Simple. This was decided before the foundation of the world. Simple

Jesus finished the work on the cross. Simple

The Gospel is preached to bring this to light. Simple

What did the Jews have that the Gentiles didnt? Access to God. What does the gospel give to the chosen? Access to God. Simple

You were saved 2000 plus years ago on the cross. Period

What do you have now? Access to God. Simple

Your faith is Gods gift to you. Simple

Just like Lazarus who came bound hand and foot, you came when God called. Lazarus had no choice but came and so did you. Its effectual calling. Grace is what saved you. Faith is what sustains your relationship.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> The point is God could not have died for their sins including unbelief. He died only for the elect.*So you believed from the moment you were born? All of us were guilty of unbelief before we were saved....eh?*
> 
> One thought you have no rejection at all of God revealing himself to a single group of people in the old testament but you do have a problem with God only revealing himself to certain people now.*Well of course, Peter called the gentiles unclean, who were seperate from the Jews, gentiles meaning every other nation, who did God deal with in the OT? God said call nothing unclean that I have called clean. How do you think we were grafted into the vine? We were not born from the roots of the vine, we, the gentiles were grafted in.*  Was God so unfair in the old testament? *No, I just believe that God couldn't get His point across...obviously because the Jews didn't accept Jesus, no question in that, is there?* When you read Romans 9 even if you want to say that was not based on individuals which the scripture plainly says you still end up with God working through a group or person not based on somthing they had done whether good or bad.*Huh...I don't need Romans 9 to understand the gospel.*
> 
> You simply cant read Chapter 9 and say it was based on anything in them but only for God's purposes


*Well of course it is for God's purpose but ONLY after you are saved, not before. Once again, Paul is not talking to the unsaved.*

Peace


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## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Perhaps one day you will see that you believe because you were elect instead of elect because you believe.



If Jesus came to seek and save the lost, wouldn't all people be saved now?
Or Jesus didn't accomplish what He sat out to do, according to your way of questioning.


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## Ronnie T

Annie, don't you let these two or three fellows get to you.
You know how some are on this forum.
You need to ask them for scriptural references to all their statements.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> The point is God could not have died for their sins including unbelief. He died only for the elect.
> 
> One thought you have no rejection at all of God revealing himself to a single group of people in the old testament but you do have a problem with God only revealing himself to certain people now.  Was God so unfair in the old testament?  When you read Romans 9 even if you want to say that was not based on individuals which the scripture plainly says you still end up with God working through a group or person not based on somthing they had done whether good or bad.
> 
> You simply cant read Chapter 9 and say it was based on anything in them but only for God's purposes



Romans 9 isn't part of the gospel.

I was saved based on the gospel. When you were saved what did you believe? That you didn't have a choice, you didn't chose Jesus, you didn't chose to believe, that God chose you and then you believed? just curious.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Annie, don't you let these two or three fellows get to you.
> You know how some are on this forum.
> You need to ask them for scriptural references to all their statements.



I'm good, thank you my dear brother in Christ...you're right. But I've got that scripture memorized by now...lol.
I'm mounted up, my feet are shod with His peace, and I've got my sword sharpened. The more I'm involved the more I sharpen my sword. Thank you God!! I need it. I'm polishing my armor, ya know, RT? 

"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12

In Him I Remain
Annie


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## Ronnie T

common man said:


> The point is God could not have died for their sins including unbelief. He died only for the elect.
> 
> One thought you have no rejection at all of God revealing himself to a single group of people in the old testament but you do have a problem with God only revealing himself to certain people now.  Was God so unfair in the old testament?  When you read Romans 9 even if you want to say that was not based on individuals which the scripture plainly says you still end up with God working through a group or person not based on somthing they had done whether good or bad.
> 
> You simply cant read Chapter 9 and say it was based on anything in them but only for God's purposes



Wrong Wrong.

Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said: 
   “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.” 

*Now, would you like a dozen other pieces of scripture that makes the same point?
Maybe two dozen?
I'll provide them.
Through Jesus Christ, everyone has an opportunity to believe.  Everyone.  Paul pleaded that the Jews would believe.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> If Jesus came to seek and save the lost, wouldn't all people be saved now?
> Or Jesus didn't accomplish what He sat out to do, according to your way of questioning.



Yep, all of us were lost at one time and some still are...some will always be lost, even though Christ's hope for us is to come to salvation...all of us won't.

You're right Ronnie, Christ died for our atonement, it's up to us to believe and repent, no one twists our arms to do that. Who would MAKE us accept a gift?


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I'm good, thank you my dear brother in Christ...you're right. But I've got that scripture memorized by now...lol.
> I'm mounted up, my feet are shod with His peace, and I've got my sword sharpened. The more I'm involved the more I sharpen my sword. Thank you God!! I need it. I'm polishing my armor, ya know, RT?
> 
> "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart." Hebrews 4:12
> 
> In Him I Remain
> Annie



God Bless ya lady.


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## CollinsCraft77

We can quote scripture all day. Thats why this is interesting. List all you wish to discuss. They can all be answered. What a freewill person can not answer is Gods election. His purpose in choosing. I was raised a missionary baptist so its not like Im not familiar with it. The Bible is clear that it happened. 

You want to convince me differently, Im all ears. But you cant just explain it away.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> We can quote scripture all day. Thats why this is interesting. List all you wish to discuss. They can all be answered. What a freewill person can not answer is Gods election. His purpose in choosing. I was raised a missionary baptist so its not like Im not familiar with it. The Bible is clear that it happened.
> 
> You want to convince me differently, Im all ears. But you cant just explain it away.



And what a 'chosen' person cannot do, is understand free will. Just like the the chosen Jews, who have no doubt that free will is not an option. They are in bondage to the law, and couldn't conceive of freedom in Christ.....they refused to believe that it was so easy to just believe and repent. They just didn't know anything else. They didn't know Jesus, and then refused Him. Surely it was up to God, since they were chosen, and not a man named Jesus and His gospel.

I believe that God 'sorta' said....ok I give up, I can't get y'all to mind the law and you will never stop sinning. So the only way I can save you is to give you a lamb of atonement once and for all, and let you choose what you will, it's not up to ME if you perish, it's on you. That's what the law of the chosen was...you had to be God's chosen (Jews) to be saved and that didn't work either...did it?

Believe and repent or perish. That seems so simple to me. He could've forced us to believe by chosing us without sacrificing His son. The sacrificing of His son is what tenderized our hearts, some of us, that if God could give His only Son to die for our sins then surely I can believe and repent and have everlasting life....WOW...what a good trade.

My first song was Jesus Loves me This I know, and I couldn't have believed too much or repented...but I did believe that Jesus loved me and every other 3 yr old in the class, not just me and becky, but all of us.


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## CollinsCraft77

Let me ask you. What happens to a person who never hears the gospel as you say?


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Let me ask you. What happens to a person who never hears the gospel as you say?



I don't know, do you? If they never hear the gospel, does that mean they can't be chosen by God? And if they aren't chosen would hearing the gospel matter? And even if they were chosen and never hear the gospel, can they believe and repent, anyway?

Besides those are the ones we are suppose to be preaching the gospel to...that's the point of 'spreading' the gospel throughout the world.

In your opinion what happens to them?


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## CollinsCraft77

Well of course we believe in election so we believe God elects from all. Thats the simple answer.

But I am trying to look from your point of view. Seriously, i am. I also want to know how people were saved before Christ? I know many say he preached to the dead when he was dead before he rose, but I can not find that in the Bible. 

I have heard people say those that never hear the gospel go to heaven because they were ignorant of the needed choice but I cant find that either. 

I understand where you come from with exercising faith in Christ yet I read faith is Gods gift? I do not understand how one can exercise something before it is given. 

I wish that all could be saved as you do. Still i read where election is true and it was according to Gods will, not mans.

Election is tough as is freewill.


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## Ronnie T

Here are the scripture (KJV) that contain the word "election".

Once in Romans 9.
Three times in Romans 11.
Once in 1Thess 1.
Once in 2 Peter 1.

1.Romans 9:11
 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

2.Romans 11:5
 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

3.Romans 11:7
 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

4.Romans 11:28
 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

5.1 Thessalonians 1:4
 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

6.2 Peter 1:10
 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 


*Each of these situations is worth detailed study.
2Peter 1:10 is pretty interesting.


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## Ronnie T

In Romans 11  Paul is talking to Gentile Christians (verse 13).
But Paul was talking about the Jews being the (original)elect.

Now I refer you back to Eph 1.

Paul begins in Ephesians 1 writing about the election, or predestination of the nation of Israel (Jews).  They were God's elect.
But in verse 13, (I believe it's 13) Paul switches and speaks to the Gentile Christian.  He tells the Gentile Christian that they are now a part of the elect based upon their faith in Jesus Christ.  
I'll get the verse and post it here for you.....
(13)  In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. 

*Paul is specifically speaking to the Gentile Christians in verse 13.
And those who listened to the message of the Gospel, and believed, were sealed in the Holy Spirit.


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## CollinsCraft77

Ronnie, I have to disagree with you that he is speaking of Israel. What in these verses tells you that? He is speaking to Christians. Where do you see any mention of Israel? He talks of Gods election and in verse 13, instead of switching to Gentiles, one could read that he listed all of this, Gods plan, and then "in addition to this" you heard of the truth, the "good news", were regenerated by God and the Holy Spirit is the defining mark of your election.

Eph 2:8 clearly states that the faith a Christian has is the GIFT of GOD. 

No mention of the word gentile till later.


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## common man

Ronnie T said:


> Wrong Wrong.
> 
> Acts 10:34 Opening his mouth, Peter said:
> “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40 God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”
> 
> *Now, would you like a dozen other pieces of scripture that makes the same point?
> Maybe two dozen?
> I'll provide them.
> Through Jesus Christ, everyone has an opportunity to believe.  Everyone.  Paul pleaded that the Jews would believe.



Ronnie what does that prove, that fear came from God? So I suppose your friends who have no faith in Christ and say we are going to hang out in :nono::nono::nono::nono: together have any fear of him?  They will have no fear or knowledge of sin until it is shown to him by GOD. The point is they could care less just like you and I could care less until GOD goes after us.


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## common man

mtnwoman said:


> *Well of course it is for God's purpose but ONLY after you are saved, not before. Once again, Paul is not talking to the unsaved.*
> 
> Peace



My point was he died for your unbelief but did not die for their unbelief.


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## common man

Just replied to wrong post sorry.


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## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ronnie, I have to disagree with you that he is speaking of Israel. What in these verses tells you that? He is speaking to Christians. Where do you see any mention of Israel? He talks of Gods election and in verse 13, instead of switching to Gentiles, one could read that he listed all of this, Gods plan, and then "in addition to this" you heard of the truth, the "good news", were regenerated by God and the Holy Spirit is the defining mark of your election.
> 
> Eph 2:8 clearly states that the faith a Christian has is the GIFT of GOD.



I don't have time today but when I do have time I'll prove it to you.  And I'll prove it from Eph 1 itself.
No mention of the word gentile till later.


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## CollinsCraft77

Ok Ronnie. Looking forward to reading your response


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## pstrahin

God chose all of us.  That is why he sent his son to die on the cross, for our salvation.  However, only those of us who choose to live a life according to God's plan will go to heaven.


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## CollinsCraft77

Really? Where does it say that?


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## pstrahin

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Really? Where does it say that?



In the Bible.


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## CollinsCraft77

Where in the Bible sir does it say God chose everyone?


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## pstrahin

For God so loved the *WORLD* that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believeth in him shall not parrish but have everlasting life.

The word WORLD, is not referring to the planet, but the inhabitants thereof.


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## CollinsCraft77

Done covered that one sir. You need to look at the Greek word used by the translators. Get a Strong's concordance and look. The same greek word is also used for elect or peculiar people. Its right in front of you should you choose to search.

The example used earlier was the wide WORLD of sports. The word their doesnt mean the whole world, nor all its inhabitants, but speaks solely to athletes and the games they play. 

Now i ask again, where does the Bible specifically say God CHOSE everyone as you stated.


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## pstrahin

Let me ask you, why would you believe that God has only chosen certain people?  God sent Jesus to die on the cross for the sin of MANKIND.  Now should man (any man or woman)choose to follow Gods plan of salvation, (1) repent of your sins, (2) Confess that Jesus Christ is the son of God and (3) be baptized (immersed just as Jesus was) and walk a life of Christianity, then yes you are chosen and will spend eternity with our God.  If not, eternal ****ation.


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## CollinsCraft77

Your closer than you think. However, in your scenario, you become chosen

1. At the time you decide to accept Christ. So God's choosing is based on mans decision in real time.

The Bible clearly states God's election, not man electing God, but God's election happened before the world was even created. And furthermore, if one looks at an individual whom he chose, there is a clear path and progression of events. He is predestinated. He is called and conforms to the image of Christ. He is justified. He is secured. He is bought. He is given the gift of faith. Nowhere in this progression does it say a choice is given. Was it fair that God chose Israel in this world to have relationship and not anyone else before Christ? Nope. And it certainly isnt unfair for him to choose in any other capacity. The problem lies in two things. No man doesnt like being told he doesnt have a choice in anything. And secondly, people just automatically think we believe the elect is just a few. Not so. 

Jesus came to save "that" which was lost. He accomplished that. It doesnt read Jesus came and did his part and now its up to them. He knew his sheep. He saved his sheep. Anyone who confesses Jesus as Lord has this ability because God chose them.


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## pstrahin

Maybe "chosen" was not the right word to use.  However, God wants us, "that which was lost" to serve him.  We have a choice, we can choose to serve him, or not.  "Choose ye this day who you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".  I do not believe in predestiny, I believe in freewill.  And I belive that the only way there, is thru the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.


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## mtnwoman

pstrahin said:


> For God so loved the *WORLD* that he gave his only begotten son that whoseover believeth in him shall not parrish but have everlasting life.
> 
> The word WORLD, is not referring to the planet, but the inhabitants thereof.



I was saved based on that very verse. In my opinion that verse is the heart of the gospel. But in the tulip doctrine of Calvinism, totally dismisses that verse and even seems to offend them sometimes. Never heard once or seen once, them post that scripture. 

We preach the gospel because that is what we are called to believe and then repent. That is the key to salvation, believing that verse. If you say you believe but you don't believe the words of God regarding who Jesus was, are you really believing what you need to believe to come to salvation.

I've said before, so just an example and not dissing anyone.....the JWs believe they are the 144,000 elect, just because they have believed that and repented, are they saved based on that? Just because you believe something/anything doesn't mean you are saved does it.

Just because you believe what Timothy said, for women to learn in silence, not to call attention to themselves, with jewelry, makeup, a nice hairdo, you believe that and practice that and that saves you? No they have to believe who God says Jesus is and what He did for us....that's what you have to believe to be saved.

Don't you have to believe what God (not Paul) calls us to believe to receive salvation?

Sorry so long.


----------



## mtnwoman

pstrahin said:


> Maybe "chosen" was not the right word to use.  However, God wants us, "that which was lost" to serve him.  We have a choice, we can choose to serve him, or not.  "Choose ye this day who you will serve, as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord".  I do not believe in predestiny, I believe in freewill.  And I belive that the only way there, is thru the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.



Just answered my question!!

I totally agree.

Simple as that.


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## common man

mtnwoman said:


> I was saved based on that very verse. In my opinion that verse is the heart of the gospel. But in the tulip doctrine of Calvinism, totally dismisses that verse and even seems to offend them sometimes. Never heard once or seen once, them post that scripture.
> 
> We preach the gospel because that is what we are called to believe and then repent. That is the key to salvation, believing that verse. If you say you believe but you don't believe the words of God regarding who Jesus was, are you really believing what you need to believe to come to salvation.
> 
> I've said before, so just an example and not dissing anyone.....the JWs believe they are the 144,000 elect, just because they have believed that and repented, are they saved based on that? Just because you believe something/anything doesn't mean you are saved does it.
> 
> Just because you believe what Timothy said, for women to learn in silence, not to call attention to themselves, with jewelry, makeup, a nice hairdo, you believe that and practice that and that saves you? No they have to believe who God says Jesus is and what He did for us....that's what you have to believe to be saved.
> 
> Don't you have to believe what God (not Paul) calls us to believe to receive salvation?
> 
> Sorry so long.



Mtnwoman JOhn 3 verse 16 is wonderful absolutely wonderul but you can't just throw out all of this scripture showing why you respond and someone else doesn't.

Anyone who will believe absolutely, but the reason they believe biblically is not somethin in them but God's work in them.


----------



## pstrahin

mtnwoman said:


> I was saved based on that very verse. In my opinion that verse is the heart of the gospel. But in the tulip doctrine of Calvinism, totally dismisses that verse and even seems to offend them sometimes. Never heard once or seen once, them post that scripture.
> 
> We preach the gospel because that is what we are called to believe and then repent. That is the key to salvation, believing that verse. If you say you believe but you don't believe the words of God regarding who Jesus was, are you really believing what you need to believe to come to salvation.
> 
> I've said before, so just an example and not dissing anyone.....the JWs believe they are the 144,000 elect, just because they have believed that and repented, are they saved based on that? Just because you believe something/anything doesn't mean you are saved does it.
> 
> Just because you believe what Timothy said, for women to learn in silence, not to call attention to themselves, with jewelry, makeup, a nice hairdo, you believe that and practice that and that saves you? No they have to believe who God says Jesus is and what He did for us....that's what you have to believe to be saved.
> 
> Don't you have to believe what God (not Paul) calls us to believe to receive salvation?
> 
> Sorry so long.



No apologies necessary, healthy discussion for the benefit of God's Kingdom is essential for us to grow.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Done covered that one sir. You need to look at the Greek word used by the translators. Get a Strong's concordance and look. The same greek word is also used for elect or peculiar people. Its right in front of you should you choose to search.
> 
> The example used earlier was the wide WORLD of sports. The word their doesnt mean the whole world, nor all its inhabitants, but speaks solely to athletes and the games they play.
> 
> Now i ask again, where does the Bible specifically say God CHOSE everyone as you stated.



In John 3:16, it's simple, why do you not consider that verse in any kind of way. Nothing in the gospel which is what we are to believe to be saved, says God made a preselection of who He wanted to save and who He didn't. Nowhere in the gospel, which is what we're called to believe in to be saved.

John 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Mtnwoman JOhn 3 verse 16 is wonderful absolutely wonderul but you can't just throw out all of this scripture showing why you respond and someone else doesn't.
> 
> Anyone who will believe absolutely, but the reason they believe biblically is not somethin in them but God's work in them.



Then please show me in the gospel of Jesus Christ where it says He chooses who He wants to save. Since that is what we are suppose to do,preach the gospel, and all we have to do. Says nothing about go into all the world(world meaning what here? part of the world? some folks?) preaching the entire bible, or preach the gospel and Pauls, teachings.

The gospel being Matt, Mark, Luke, John.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> John 1:29
> The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.



The Word of God not only declares that Christ is the Lamb of God and that he is the Lamb slain to make atonement for sin, but also that his atonement for sin is an effectual atonement.You must understand this. It is vital. Effectual atonement is an essential article of gospel truth. Without it there is no gospel. The gospel does not present a Christ who makes it possible for sin to be taken away. The gospel declares that Christ, the Lamb of God, "Taketh away the sin of the world!" He "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26). Christ's atonement was and is an effectual atonement for sin.

If Christ atoned for the sin of the world (everybody, as you believe) then everybody is blameless and everybody will be in heaven. Or I think you would have to say that the atonement was not enough and God yet looks to us for something more.


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Ronnie what does that prove, that fear came from God? So I suppose your friends who have no faith in Christ and say we are going to hang out in :nono::nono::nono::nono: together have any fear of him?  They will have no fear or knowledge of sin until it is shown to him by GOD. The point is they could care less just like you and I could care less until GOD goes after us.



Wasn't Jesus a friend of sinners? What did He tell them?
Even Peter tried to diss some people who he thought God didn't intend on saving...Peter thought they were not of the chosen as he was......God fixed that problem didn't He?


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## common man

gemcgrew said:


> The Word of God not only declares that Christ is the Lamb of God and that he is the Lamb slain to make atonement for sin, but also that his atonement for sin is an effectual atonement.You must understand this. It is vital. Effectual atonement is an essential article of gospel truth. Without it there is no gospel. The gospel does not present a Christ who makes it possible for sin to be taken away. The gospel declares that Christ, the Lamb of God, "Taketh away the sin of the world!" He "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26). Christ's atonement was and is an effectual atonement for sin.
> 
> If Christ atoned for the sin of the world (everybody, as you believe) then everybody is blameless and everybody will be in heaven. Or I think you would have to say that the atonement was not enough and God yet looks to us for something more.




Oh gemcgrew I feel for you you said everybody she is about to get on to you, the dilemma is mtnwoman will accept that not everyone is going to believe, what she will not accept is the dillemma her own doctrine  has Christ dying for no one since it has to be activated by the sinner first.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Then please show me in the gospel of Jesus Christ where it says He chooses who He wants to save.



"Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16) 

"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> The Word of God not only declares that Christ is the Lamb of God and that he is the Lamb slain to make atonement for sin, but also that his atonement for sin is an effectual atonement.You must understand this. It is vital. Effectual atonement is an essential article of gospel truth. Without it there is no gospel. The gospel does not present a Christ who makes it possible for sin to be taken away. The gospel declares that Christ, the Lamb of God, "Taketh away the sin of the world!" He "put away sin by the sacrifice of himself" (Heb. 9:26). Christ's atonement was and is an effectual atonement for sin.
> 
> If Christ atoned for the sin of the world (everybody, as you believe) then everybody is blameless and everybody will be in heaven. Or I think you would have to say that the atonement was not enough and God yet looks to us for something more.



John 3:15-17
King James Version (KJV)


 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 

 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Might be saved...where do you get that everyone will be saved according to this scripture?

The ones that will be saved are the ones that believe and repent, the ones that won't be saved are the ones that won't believe. It doesn't say all are gonna be saved just because Jesus died on the cross, and I don't believe that either, so quit saying I do. Everyone will not be saved, even though Jesus provided a way for them to be.

Matthew 18:13-14
King James Version (KJV)


 13And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray. 

 14Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> "Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you" (John 15:16)
> 
> "I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." John 17:9



Isn't Jesus speaking to and about His disciples whom He did choose?

So I guess the word 'world' here means something different here, too, eh?


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## mtnwoman

common man said:


> Oh gemcgrew I feel for you you said everybody she is about to get on to you, the dilemma is mtnwoman will accept that not everyone is going to believe, what she will not accept is the dillemma her own doctrine  has Christ dying for no one since it has to be activated by the sinner first.



Oh come on, now.
I have never said that, you're assuming that's what I'm saying because that is part of the tulip ploy to accuse us of saying we are saying that...no one I knows believes that every one will be saved, well except for a few nonbelievers that I know.

It's activated at the cross...by grace that was given first. Are we not suppose to preach the gospel to sinners and to anyone who will listen, since we don't know who's saved and who isn't.  Is not the living word of God, including the gospel, that's suppose to ***** the heart? Isn't the Jesus in me working to save others? I surely can't...that's why He tells us to preach the gospel.  All I can do is give them the living word and hope it takes root, then the Holy Ghost woes them, they will not all believe, even though they are being called to believe. 

If we are prechosen, God could just ***** our hearts, call us to faith and we'd be saved, well actually we were already saved before we hear, believe, repent, according to you. Presaved=no gospel needed, it is done, presaved and that's it. You don't even have a choice....you're saved...period.


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## CollinsCraft77

She dont understand it gem. And thats fine. I feel like im twice as close to God than at anytime I was in a freewill church. How much more is it to know that God loved me without me having to do anything to impress him. If God waits for any man to come to him, he will be waiting forever.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> I don't have time today but when I do have time I'll prove it to you.  And I'll prove it from Eph 1 itself.
> No mention of the word gentile till later.



Okay CC77, here it is.
The two categories of "elect".

As Paul writes to the Christians at Ephesus, he begins by referring to himself, the other apostles, and Jews(Israel).
It becomes apparant because he begins by using the pronouns "I" and "we"...... and in verse 13 he'll begin refering to "you"(Gentile believers).  watch now.

Now, you got to read every single word of the chapter to get the full message.
At the end of it you'll see who the elect, predestined are.
(1st). The Jew, the people of Israel.
(2nd). Any and all of the Gentiles who trust in the blood of Jesus.

Eph 1:
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, 
   To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 

 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us(us Jews) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we (Jews) would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us (Jews) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us(Jews) in the Beloved. 7 In Him we(Jews) have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our(Jews) trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us(Jews). In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us(Jews) the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we(Jews) have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we(Jews) who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 

13 In Him, you also(Gentiles), after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you(Gentile believers) were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory. 

 15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you(Gentile Christians) and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all. 

*Did you see that?
First Paul is talking about "us" "us" "us".
Then in 13 he begins talking to "you"   "you"    "you".
You also after listening and then believing have received the seal.......

* I've already posted this several months ago in this thread.  I don't believe anyone made a single comment.
I hope you'll comment on this chapter.


----------



## gemcgrew

CollinsCraft77 said:


> If God waits for any man to come to him, he will be waiting forever.



Kind of difficult for a dead man to do much of anything. 

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"(Romans 5:12)

"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:10-12)


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> Oh come on, now.
> I have never said that, you're assuming that's what I'm saying because that is part of the tulip ploy to accuse us of saying we are saying that...no one I knows believes that every one will be saved, well except for a few nonbelievers that I know.
> 
> It's activated at the cross...by grace that was given first. Are we not suppose to preach the gospel to sinners and to anyone who will listen, since we don't know who's saved and who isn't.  Is not the living word of God, including the gospel, that's suppose to ***** the heart? Isn't the Jesus in me working to save others? I surely can't...that's why He tells us to preach the gospel.  All I can do is give them the living word and hope it takes root, then the Holy Ghost woes them, they will not all believe, even though they are being called to believe.
> 
> If we are prechosen, God could just ***** our hearts, call us to faith and we'd be saved, well actually we were already saved before we hear, believe, repent, according to you. Presaved=no gospel needed, it is done, presaved and that's it. You don't even have a choice....you're saved...period.



I meant you would react to him saying everybody, I know you accept everyone will not be saved we just don't agree on why that is.That's all I meant.

Mtnwoman I think one thing to remember in this is we have common ground. I believe everything you just said in that second paragraph except the last sentence. I see two kinds of calling in scripture a general call. That would be you just preaching or saharing the gospel with others.  But I also see in scripture when God effectually calls someone their are no dropouts. That is what I am pointing to when I referance 1 corinthians 1 22-26 and Romans 8 verses 28-32.

I believe God changes our hearts and then those he effectually calls come to faith. But even though that is true God still uses the means of the gospel going forth to save his elect.  That is his means and he commands us to be his instruments. SO just because I see election taught in scripture I also see God demands for us to preach the gospel.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Okay CC77, here it is.
> The two categories of "elect".
> 
> As Paul writes to the Christians at Ephesus, he begins by referring to himself, the other apostles, and Jews(Israel).
> It becomes apparant because he begins by using the pronouns "I" and "we"...... and in verse 13 he'll begin refering to "you"(Gentile believers).  watch now.
> 
> Now, you got to read every single word of the chapter to get the full message.
> At the end of it you'll see who the elect, predestined are.
> (1st). The Jew, the people of Israel.
> (2nd). Any and all of the Gentiles who trust in the blood of Jesus.
> 
> Eph 1:
> 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
> To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us(us Jews) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we (Jews) would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us (Jews) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us(Jews) in the Beloved. 7 In Him we(Jews) have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our(Jews) trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us(Jews). In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us(Jews) the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we(Jews) have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we(Jews) who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
> 
> 13 In Him, you also(Gentiles), after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you(Gentile believers) were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
> 
> 15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you(Gentile Christians) and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
> 
> *Did you see that?
> First Paul is talking about "us" "us" "us".
> Then in 13 he begins talking to "you"   "you"    "you".
> You also after listening and then believing have received the seal.......
> 
> * I've already posted this several months ago in this thread.  I don't believe anyone made a single comment.
> I hope you'll comment on this chapter.



Oh how I see it!! and agree!

The Jews are chosen.
We are adopted into the vine, God blinded the Jews temporarily so we, the gentiles, could be grafted in. The Jews were selfish with their God, but God chose for no one to perish which included the so called unclean gentiles, who is everyone else on earth except for the Jews.

I agree there are a chosen group of people, before the foundation of the earth, but obviously by teachings in the OT, that was the Jews, God's chosen people.

Not us gentiles. We were granted grace later. Or else why wasn't God using us in the OT? He only was concerned with the Jews at that time, even though He probably had another plan. He started with choosing them.

That explains to me who the elect/chosen are, they are the Jews. Like Saul, the Jews would've never given Christianity a chance to be grafted in the original vine. So God blinded Saul and the other Jews...agree? to give us the same grace, us being non Jews, which is the rest of the world.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> If God waits for any man to come to him, he will be waiting forever.



Totally untrue. Once we hear the gospel, being unsaved, we are then woed by the Holy Spirit. We choose to come to salvation or we refuse. You say no one can resist who hears the calling of God, the gospel. How many in this USA refuse anyway that know and have heard the gospel?

The gospel is the catalyst that 'can' change us from unbelief to belief, supernaturally. We are just the messingers, we are not the catalyst, we're just preaching the living word.


----------



## mtnwoman

common man said:


> I believe God changes our hearts and then those he effectually calls come to faith. But even though that is true God still uses the means of the gospel going forth to save his elect.  That is his means and he commands us to be his instruments. SO just because I see election taught in scripture I also see God demands for us to preach the gospel.



Who does God say His chosen people are? Who are the elect in revelation? What will those elect do?

God blinded Saul, just like God blinded the Jews, isn't that related in some way? Who is Saul/Paul? was he chosen because he was a Jew? were all the other Jews chosen?

We are not chosen, we are adopted....temporily setting the chosen aside so we can be grafted into the vine. Why would God have to do that if we, too, are the chosen?


----------



## common man

mtnwoman said:


> Oh how I see it!! and agree!
> 
> The Jews are chosen.
> We are adopted into the vine, God blinded the Jews temporarily so we, the gentiles, could be grafted in. The Jews were selfish with their God, but God chose for no one to perish which included the so called unclean gentiles, who is everyone else on earth except for the Jews.
> 
> I agree there are a chosen group of people, before the foundation of the earth, but obviously by teachings in the OT, that was the Jews, God's chosen people.
> 
> Not us gentiles. We were granted grace later. Or else why wasn't God using us in the OT? He only was concerned with the Jews at that time, even though He probably had another plan. He started with choosing them.
> 
> That explains to me who the elect/chosen are, they are the Jews. Like Saul, the Jews would've never given Christianity a chance to be grafted in the original vine. So God blinded Saul and the other Jews...agree? to give us the same grace, us being non Jews, which is the rest of the world.





Back up just forstarters Romans 9 verse 6 and Romans 11 verse 7.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ok, let's look at more of the scripture than just one verse.
If you look at the entire text, this is talking to the Jews, not us. Some of it is about us gentiles, but yet still talking to the Jews, God's chosen people.


Romans 9
 1I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 

 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 

 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 

 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; 

 5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. 

 6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 

 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 

 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. 

 9For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son. 

 10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac; 

 11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 

 12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 

 13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. 

 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 

 15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 

 16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 

 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 

 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 

 19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 

 20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 

 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

 22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 

 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 

 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? 

 25As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved. 

 26And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God. 

 27Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: 

 28For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth. 

 29And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha. 
*Especially starting here.*
 30What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 

 31But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 

 32Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; 

 33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


----------



## mtnwoman

Getting the gentiles was not as hard as getting the Jews to believe who Jesus was. Paul is deperately after the Jews to believe. What a great witness he has because of his great authority when he was still Saul. God uses people to an extreme....from total disbelief to one of the most prominant leaders of Christianity.


Kind of like Tebow....what a great witness for young aspiring sportsmen.  God can use you anywhere, but what an awesome witness Tim is. He is being used for God's glory and has many admirers that may come to salvation because of him. He may get mocked but we expect that, don't we?

He (tebow) is showing that believing in God/Jesus/the gospel is a good and cool thing to believe.
Now that's a man that is letting God be in complete control and I'm sure he was 'chosen' to do that and could not refuse.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> How many in this USA refuse anyway that know and have heard the gospel?



None


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Now that's a man that is letting God be in complete control



Unbelievable


----------



## G5BONECRUSHER

common man said:


> Back up just forstarters Romans 9 verse 6 and Romans 11 verse 7.



Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel ; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham's descendants, but: "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

 Paul is addressing the Jews who are saying that God broke his promise to Abraham. Saying that what God said about the Jewish people in the past is still applicable, still valid for today. And, just because a Semite has lineage to Abraham does not mean he is part of the covenant promise. 

The Promise was... "THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED."

 Paul is explaining God restricted the covenant, in terms of its national promises, only to those in Isaac. God’s Plan is still valid through the line of Abraham-Isaac-Jacob. 

Romans 11:7  What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened

He is speaking of the bulk of the Israelite people; who sought for life and righteousness by their obedience to the law, but did not obtain it. 

Those (Jews) who were “chosen” means, elect men, the remnant among them (Jews), who God had reserved for himself. ( Romans 3:30 ) ( 1 Corinthians 1:26 ) ( (2 Peter 3:13 )  

The rest were hardened because of their disobedience to the word of the Gospel. ( 1 Peter 2:8 )


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Kind of difficult for a dead man to do much of anything.
> 
> "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"(Romans 5:12)
> 
> "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:  There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."(Romans 3:10-12)



Now, if you'll just look a little further in Romans 4 and 5 you'll find where Paul writes of the coming of Christ into the world, and how, through Him, any person will be saved by grace, through their faith.  Salvation as a free gift, to all who believe.


----------



## Ronnie T

common man said:


> Back up just forstarters Romans 9 verse 6 and Romans 11 verse 7.




Why you got to leave Ephesians 1 and go back to Romans?
Can't you comment on Eph 1?

And are you now suggesting by Romans 9:6 that Israel was not God's chosen nation??????    You can't have it both ways.  You can't play:  "pick a verse!"  
Context.  Context.

One does much better when studying God's word if they come to a complete understanding of a particular situation and a particular writing rather than bouncing verses back and forth off the proverbial doctrinal issue.

Who is Paul talking to in Romans 9?
What's the context?
Is chapter 9 connected to chapter 8 and chapter 10?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> None



Did you just say that every person who hears the gospel accepts it and faithfully believes in Jesus Christ?
Is that what you say?


----------



## Ronnie T

My wife reminded me tonight that her granddad once told us that sending missionaries into foreign countries was a waste of money and effort because God would see to the salvation of His elect on His own.  With no effort on mankinds part at all.

This old man became so disillusioned as he tried to come to terms with some of the teachings on "the elect" that at the time of his death he had stopped going to church at all.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> My wife reminded me tonight that her granddad once told us that sending missionaries into foreign countries was a waste of money and effort because God would see to the salvation of His elect on His own.  With no effort on mankinds part at all.
> 
> This old man became so disillusioned as he tried to come to terms with some of the teachings on "the elect" that at the time of his death he had stopped going to church at all.



My granddaughter was homeschooled and my daughter used some sort of Christian based curriculum.
She read all these books about missionaries, I can get the names for anyone interested. But many were killed or died of disease, etc etc. Anyway God is going to call them to go into all the world to preach the gospel to people who are not even chosen/elected? No we do not know who will be saved, but will God send people around the world to die and starve for people who are not gonna be saved and half the time kill them when they come into the village?

If God can force us to come to salvation by preselection, can He not send missionaries to the places where those preselected people are instead of letting them die for nothing? 

I'd rather know that I was saved by mercy and grace and I had sense enough to recognize it, so's I'd have a testimoney for others, than to be born saved, never knowing the depth of my own sin. My son in law says how special it feels to be chosen/elected(he thought he was above everyone else before he got into this)....how can he even feel that good about himself being chosen, what about the unchosen? I'd rather look at every single person and know that there is hope for their eternal soul, rather than to just  feel special for my own self.  I think that alone would drive me insane....knowing that someone standing next to me has been chosen for eternal suffering.

ETA Cameron Townsend was one of the missionaries...the book is very very sad.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> My wife reminded me tonight that her granddad once told us that sending missionaries into foreign countries was a waste of money and effort because God would see to the salvation of His elect on His own.  With no effort on mankinds part at all.
> 
> This old man became so disillusioned as he tried to come to terms with some of the teachings on "the elect" that at the time of his death he had stopped going to church at all.



My dad did the same thing. It did drive him nuts....all his 5 children were wild and unsaved, so he thought, and it drove him nuts because we weren't saved by age 30...and he just thought we were not chosen, he couldn't bear it. He cried and prayed for hours and wrote letters to many pastors, Billy Graham, etc etc. He ended up having to have shock treatment after almost driving my mama insane too. They never went back to church either...well my mother did after my daddy passed. 

He got into the JW thing too....and the thing about blood transfusion, and just got so mixed up with all the contradictory scripture or the misunderstood scripture that people make an entire doctrine out of 10 or 20 verses.

He had been saved based on John 3:16, so I'm sure he's in heaven with my mama and brother waiting on us.  Perhaps if he had taught us that we had to be prechosen to be saved, some of us would've opted out....waiting on a text message from God....you're in.  I'd probably be out peddlin' too, to get some brownie points so God would pick me, too.


----------



## common man

Ronnie T said:


> Why you got to leave Ephesians 1 and go back to Romans?
> Can't you comment on Eph 1?
> 
> And are you now suggesting by Romans 9:6 that Israel was not God's chosen nation??????    You can't have it both ways.  You can't play:  "pick a verse!"
> Context.  Context.
> 
> One does much better when studying God's word if they come to a complete understanding of a particular situation and a particular writing rather than bouncing verses back and forth off the proverbial doctrinal issue.
> 
> 
> Ronnie I would hold to a covenant theology perspective on ISrael so we could go on days about this and probably start another thread.  But anyhoo I hope I haven't been too overly passionate in any of my debates and offended anyone, I feel myself just getting really agitated so I just want to stop for now for my own piece of mind. Everyone have a MERRY CHRISTMAS please keep my dad in your prayers he has parkinson's and a load of other health issues and is in a rehab facility. I'm having a real tough time right now watching him deteriate. He is 81 years old.


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## mtnwoman

There is a lot of good information in this thread. Let's please not get it pulled.  There's been a lot of thought and  research and postings on all sides that are good points. Sometimes things are taken in a way that they are not meant to be. If we were talking face to face it would be different.

Peace


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I'd rather know that I was saved by mercy and grace and I had sense enough to recognize it



Why was God merciful and gracious to you?




mtnwoman said:


> My son in law says how special it feels to be chosen/elected(he thought he was above everyone else before he got into this)....how can he even feel that good about himself being chosen, what about the unchosen?



I understand your contempt for your son in law. If half of what you say about him is true, I don't like him either.


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Why was God merciful and gracious to you?



I believe God offers that to everyone, but all won't accept it because all won't love Jesus, we know many people today who almost hate Him. 

I did love Jesus and He says He loves anyone who loves His son...and I've loved Jesus from as far back as I can remember, maybe 2 or 3 yrs old. My mother said she'd ask me where I was going anytime I was dressed up and I said 'I gonna go see 'Jevus'.


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## CollinsCraft77

Why would you not like him? Because he believes differently than you?


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Okay CC77, here it is.
> The two categories of "elect".
> 
> As Paul writes to the Christians at Ephesus, he begins by referring to himself, the other apostles, and Jews(Israel).
> It becomes apparant because he begins by using the pronouns "I" and "we"...... and in verse 13 he'll begin refering to "you"(Gentile believers).  watch now.
> 
> Now, you got to read every single word of the chapter to get the full message.
> At the end of it you'll see who the elect, predestined are.
> (1st). The Jew, the people of Israel.
> (2nd). Any and all of the Gentiles who trust in the blood of Jesus.
> 
> Eph 1:
> 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,
> To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
> 
> 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us(us Jews) in Him before the foundation of the world, that we (Jews) would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us (Jews) to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us(Jews) in the Beloved. 7 In Him we(Jews) have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our(Jews) trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us(Jews). In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us(Jews) the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we(Jews) have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we(Jews) who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
> 
> 13 In Him, you also(Gentiles), after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you(Gentile believers) were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
> 
> 15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you(Gentile Christians) and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
> 
> *Did you see that?
> First Paul is talking about "us" "us" "us".
> Then in 13 he begins talking to "you"   "you"    "you".
> You also after listening and then believing have received the seal.......
> 
> * I've already posted this several months ago in this thread.  I don't believe anyone made a single comment.
> I hope you'll comment on this chapter.



I was hoping for a response from those who see this chapter in a different light than I do, to help me better understand your point of view.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Ok. Tell you what mr ronnie. I will but its going to have to be tomorrow. Ok?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Why would you not like him? Because he believes differently than you?



Yeah that's why....DUH Mostly is none of your business.

if you must know he abused my oldest granddaughter physically, who is not his child, for starters.......but mostly for that reason.

He talks down to me like you do, no respect whatsoever for another reason....course I don't have a husband, so he gets away with it.  But he just started this about the elect about the time of the original post, and he was saved based on John 3:16....he thinks he's had a new revelation or something.....11 long yrs my daughter has put up with him....and he's gone from one doctrine to another.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I was hoping for a response from those who see this chapter in a different light than I do, to help me better understand your point of view.



For one thing it's addressed to the saints, who are the already saved, which makes them part of the elect and or chosen and he speaks to them as such....right off the bat.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I was hoping for a response from those who see this chapter in a different light than I do, to help me better understand your point of view.



That's an awesome, easy to understand, post. Thanks for all that, I'm sure you spent much time posting that entire chapter. I'm gonna save that to my favs!!


----------



## Ronnie T

Let me record what we all believe and agree upon.

1.  That Christ died on the cross to pay the price for the sins of people who were still sinning.

2.  That Christ resurrected from the dead and called His apostles to Himself.

3.  That Christ commissioned His apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel.

4.  That those who believe will be saved.

5.  That those who do not will not be saved.

In my haste I know I've left out repentence, etc.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Mtwoman, i actually was talking to gemc. Talk down to you? Nope. At least that wasnt my intent.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

4. Those who believe were saved. Thats the difference in our doctrines in a nutshell.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Let me record what we all believe and agree upon.
> 
> 1.  That Christ died on the cross to pay the price for the sins of people who were still sinning.
> 
> 2.  That Christ resurrected from the dead and called His apostles to Himself.
> 
> 3.  That Christ commissioned His apostles to go into the world and preach the Gospel.
> 
> 4.  That those who believe will be saved.
> 
> 5.  That those who do not will not be saved.
> 
> In my haste I know I've left out repentence, etc.



That's what I was saved based on, couldn't go much deeper than that as a 12 yr old. But I got that part, and like you said of course we know repentence. And I probably hadn't sinned too much when I was 12, but I understood it to the point that I was overcome to the point of falling to my knees and boohooing....and I remember the moment it hit me and the moment I knew I was saved, 50 some yrs later....I had always loved Jesus and when I realized my sins had sent Him to the cross, I could hardly bear it.

So I agree...that's salvation... and that's exactly what I 'preach' to anyone, simple and to the point.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Mtwoman, i actually was talking to gemc. Talk down to you? Nope. At least that wasnt my intent.



He doesn't believe different than gemc, so why would you ask him that? You were talking to gemc, but talking about me, eh?

Ok, whatever.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> 4. Those who believe were saved. Thats the difference in our doctrines in a nutshell.



What do you mean?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Gem made the comment that he didnt like him that much either. I simply asked if it was because of his views on this. I just dont paste others comments like you do. It was directed to him. 

Only Gods chosen can believe. Faith is his gift. I believe you "believe" because before the world began God chose you to be a part of Christ's inheritance, his family and thus at the time known to him opened your eyes to him and of course you accepted him because his call is effectual. We differ in that you believe you accepted and were saved. We believe you were saved prior and your eyes were opened so that you could now call him Father and have relationship with him. Thats the difference. When you were saved. Like lazarus, you came. He called. You came.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gem made the comment that he didnt like him that much either. I simply asked if it was because of his views on this. I just dont paste others comments like you do. It was directed to him.
> 
> Only Gods chosen can believe. Faith is his gift. I believe you "believe" because before the world began God chose you to be a part of Christ's inheritance, his family and thus at the time known to him opened your eyes to him and of course you accepted him because his call is effectual. We differ in that you believe you accepted and were saved. We believe you were saved prior and your eyes were opened so that you could now call him Father and have relationship with him. Thats the difference. When you were saved. Like lazarus, you came. He called. You came.



Do you believe that the Jews are God's chosen, too? Well I guess you'd have to, if they are to be saved. Why don't they believe? They didn't believe before God blinded them and they still don't believe. He called them for hundreds of years they never came and most of them still have not come.

I still don't understand if we were already saved, what did we need a saviour for?

And even more than that if all is done before the foundation of the world, what are we waiting on? We're saved, can't we just skip the chess game between God and satan of who gets who? God can't save everyone if it's His choice? and why would He create us just to destroy us, couldn't He just stop this mass production of people bound for eternal dangnation? Get rid of satan and we're all good, then everyone would believe. Why create  people to go to hades?


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gem made the comment that he didnt like him that much either. I simply asked if it was because of his views on this. I just dont paste others comments like you do. It was directed to him.
> 
> Only Gods chosen can believe. Faith is his gift. I believe you "believe" because before the world began God chose you to be a part of Christ's inheritance, his family and thus at the time known to him opened your eyes to him and of course you accepted him because his call is effectual. We differ in that you believe you accepted and were saved. We believe you were saved prior and your eyes were opened so that you could now call him Father and have relationship with him. Thats the difference. When you were saved. Like lazarus, you came. He called. You came.




1 Thessalonians 2:13
 For this reason we also constantly thank God that when you received the word of God which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but for what it really is, the word of God, which also performs its work in you who believe.

Performs its work in who??  .........  you who believe.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> 4. Those who believe were saved. Thats the difference in our doctrines in a nutshell.



You want me to quote the scripture that says:  "those who believe and are baptized will be saved, those who believe not shall be condemned."?

It could have said:  "The elect will believe, the others cannot believe!"


----------



## Ronnie T

common man said:


> Ronnie T said:
> 
> 
> 
> Why you got to leave Ephesians 1 and go back to Romans?
> Can't you comment on Eph 1?
> 
> And are you now suggesting by Romans 9:6 that Israel was not God's chosen nation??????    You can't have it both ways.  You can't play:  "pick a verse!"
> Context.  Context.
> 
> One does much better when studying God's word if they come to a complete understanding of a particular situation and a particular writing rather than bouncing verses back and forth off the proverbial doctrinal issue.
> 
> 
> Ronnie I would hold to a covenant theology perspective on ISrael so we could go on days about this and probably start another thread.  But anyhoo I hope I haven't been too overly passionate in any of my debates and offended anyone, I feel myself just getting really agitated so I just want to stop for now for my own piece of mind. Everyone have a MERRY CHRISTMAS please keep my dad in your prayers he has parkinson's and a load of other health issues and is in a rehab facility. I'm having a real tough time right now watching him deteriate. He is 81 years old.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I apoligize for neglecting this earlier.  I'm so sorry to hear of your Dad's difficulties.  I'm sure your heart is heavy.  This brings back some difficult memories for me.
> I've shed a tear and said a prayer for your dear father.
> God bless him and all his family.
> 
> .
Click to expand...


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## common man

Ronnie T said:


> common man said:
> 
> 
> 
> I apoligize for neglecting this earlier.  I'm so sorry to hear of your Dad's difficulties.  I'm sure your heart is heavy.  This brings back some difficult memories for me.
> I've shed a tear and said a prayer for your dear father.
> God bless him and all his family.
> 
> .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Ronnie.
Click to expand...


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## CollinsCraft77

Ronnie, why do everytime freewill people see saved or believed they sutomatically assume its speaks of eternity?  Are you not saved in this life as well? As Moses raised the serpent, the Jews were saved. Correct? But it wasnt eternally was it? It was in this life. Correct? Just answer me that one


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> Why was God merciful and gracious to you?
> 
> I understand your contempt for your son in law. If half of what you say about him is true, I don't like him either.



I can only answer for myself (as to why I believe God was and is merciful and gracious towards me. I believe it is true of every one of His created beings, angels and humans).

God is mercy, grace, and LOVE. He created us to have fellowship with Him and we messed that up right off the bat. Because of His nature (being perfection, holiness, and justice), He cannot allow us to be in His presence, to go unpunished, yet it is his desire to "reconnect" with each of us.   
Enter His Son into the world, the perfect image of the unseen God. 

Now here is where we differ. I believe from Scripture that God is in control, except in areas He chooses to personally limit His control. This is evidenced by observing how God allows Satan a measure of influence in the very world in which we live. God chooses to not interfere, not to eliminate all natural disasters, for instance. Another, is when He seems to take no action in the choices of men to do evil and wicked things (think, Idi Amin Dada Oumee). The very fact that we exercise our will is clearly apparent. God allows us to do so. That, when we are unsaved, we "dwell" in sin (a life-style) is not to say we sin continuously. We actually, from time to time, exhibit a quality that shows signs of our Creator. Lost folks sometimes let the elderly or disabled go first in line. Lost people sometimes dedicate themselves to the service of others. Now, I'm not arguing for the goodness of man, but a recognition that the very nature of God is sometimes reflected in His creation. God uses lost folks to achieve His will, His good pleasure. 

At this point, I defer to the example of the prodigal son (and his older brother). Both had experienced their father's will and ways, the love and compassion, as well as a sternness concerning attitudes and behavior. God always has a "fatted calf" ready when any of His children return. While He may not pursue them physically, His heart is always inclined, He patiently waits for each to recognize the sin in our lives. Now, God has done all that He needs to do to have the relationship restored, yet He does not force us to be in that relationship with Him against our will. Like the ruby red slippers, we need only to believe that Jesus is who He says He is, paid the just demands of God's law concerning our sin, has risen from the dead, and is infinitely and uniquely qualified and willing to be our only Lord and Savior. I believe God has done everything for the redemption of every soul, except forcing our acceptance of His plan for our reconciliation. I believe, based on Scripture, that God provides the opportunity, the faith, and the desire to return to Him, but like the prodigal, we must walk away from the pigpen and return home in humility and reverence, be repentant and obedient, and He will come running to meet us. The father never gave up hope for the son's return. So it is with our eternal Father. And when we do, all is forgiven and forgotten, because He says so!


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Gt, i understand your thinking. However, it does not take into account those before Christ and those who never hear the gospel as you believe. Many will say he preached to the dead but thats an inference and not in the Bible. Many say those who never hear will experience the same or go to Heaven out of ignorance. Once again, I havent read that.

What you describe is pretty much how we feel about a daily relationship with God. He gives you choice everyday and you can fellowship with him or not. Still, he knew no man would seek him. Thats Bible. Its why in his plan, as in the Bible, he took the steps needed to accomplish it. 

Perhaps we need to back up and study faith. What is it and how does one get it. Take emotion out of it. Simple black and white from scriptures.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ronnie, why do everytime freewill people see saved or believed they sutomatically assume its speaks of eternity?  Are you not saved in this life as well? As Moses raised the serpent, the Jews were saved. Correct? But it wasnt eternally was it? It was in this life. Correct? Just answer me that one



I agree.  Israel was God's own people.  His chosen nation.  Yet all but a handful purposefully died rather than enter the promised land.
For Israel, 'saved' and 'blessed' had to do with their physical life.

Jesus came to the Jews first.  God purposed it that way.
Then sanctification and justification were granted to Gentile believers.  And even though Israel was God's chosen nation, many of them refused to believe that Jesus was truly God's son......  still don't.

I also agree that God's children (all of us) are blessed in this present life.  More than we're able to recognize.

So yes, I agree with you.  "SAVED" is a complicated word.    
Proof:  "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe." (1 Corinthians 1:21)


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## CollinsCraft77

Good morning Ronnie. I havent forgotten your request but my daughter wanted her room painted for Christmas so my answers are short and in between breaks.

Curious though, you admit Jesus came to save Israel first. Ok. What then of people before Christ who were not Jews?


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## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Good morning Ronnie. I havent forgotten your request but my daughter wanted her room painted for Christmas so my answers are short and in between breaks.
> 
> Curious though, you admit Jesus came to save Israel first. Ok. What then of people before Christ who were not Jews?



I can't give a full answer that I'm totally comfortable with.
But I will say that many Gentiles converted to Judaism.  Other than that, I kinda leave those things to the Lord.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ronnie, why do everytime freewill people see saved or believed they sutomatically assume its speaks of eternity?  Are you not saved in this life as well? As Moses raised the serpent, the Jews were saved. Correct? But it wasnt eternally was it? It was in this life. Correct? Just answer me that one



With the snake they were saved from sickness, etc in the flesh not saved as coming to salvation spiritually. That is a whole other story.

You don't believe that you are eternally saved....I must be missing a huge point here?

Ever seen that same snake emblem for physicians offices? Not exactly the same but resemblence of.
I am eternally saved thru Jesus Christ, because I believed and repented.


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Curious though, you admit Jesus came to save Israel first. Ok. What then of people before Christ who were not Jews?



I'm not sure, what's your take on it? I've not really ever thought about it.

Probably God had the same plan we're working in now?


----------



## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> I can only answer for myself (as to why I believe God was and is merciful and gracious towards me. I believe it is true of every one of His created beings, angels and humans).
> 
> God is mercy, grace, and LOVE. He created us to have fellowship with Him and we messed that up right off the bat. Because of His nature (being perfection, holiness, and justice), He cannot allow us to be in His presence, to go unpunished, yet it is his desire to "reconnect" with each of us.
> Enter His Son into the world, the perfect image of the unseen God.
> 
> Now here is where we differ. I believe from Scripture that God is in control, except in areas He chooses to personally limit His control. This is evidenced by observing how God allows Satan a measure of influence in the very world in which we live. God chooses to not interfere, not to eliminate all natural disasters, for instance. Another, is when He seems to take no action in the choices of men to do evil and wicked things (think, Idi Amin Dada Oumee). The very fact that we exercise our will is clearly apparent. God allows us to do so. That, when we are unsaved, we "dwell" in sin (a life-style) is not to say we sin continuously. We actually, from time to time, exhibit a quality that shows signs of our Creator. Lost folks sometimes let the elderly or disabled go first in line. Lost people sometimes dedicate themselves to the service of others. Now, I'm not arguing for the goodness of man, but a recognition that the very nature of God is sometimes reflected in His creation. God uses lost folks to achieve His will, His good pleasure.
> 
> At this point, I defer to the example of the prodigal son (and his older brother). Both had experienced their father's will and ways, the love and compassion, as well as a sternness concerning attitudes and behavior. God always has a "fatted calf" ready when any of His children return. While He may not pursue them physically, His heart is always inclined, He patiently waits for each to recognize the sin in our lives. Now, God has done all that He needs to do to have the relationship restored, yet He does not force us to be in that relationship with Him against our will. Like the ruby red slippers, we need only to believe that Jesus is who He says He is, paid the just demands of God's law concerning our sin, has risen from the dead, and is infinitely and uniquely qualified and willing to be our only Lord and Savior. I believe God has done everything for the redemption of every soul, except forcing our acceptance of His plan for our reconciliation. I believe, based on Scripture, that God provides the opportunity, the faith, and the desire to return to Him, but like the prodigal, we must walk away from the pigpen and return home in humility and reverence, be repentant and obedient, and He will come running to meet us. The father never gave up hope for the son's return. So it is with our eternal Father. And when we do, all is forgiven and forgotten, because He says so!



Awesome GT, especially the part about where God allows satan to step into our lives for some reason, sometimes even after we are saved....been there and done that. God snatched me back, and I'm sure it was for His glory that He allowed satan to use and trip me up, even if it is just for my witness to only one girl/boy/man/woman/preacher/teacher/muslim/prisoner/whatever


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Mtwoman, i do believe im eternally saved else i would no be able to confess Christ is Lord. It is Gods blessing to me that I can, not my will, but his.

My take is that God foreknew all of his elect from the entire whole of humanity. Why did God choose some? According to HIS will as scripture has boldly stated. So his plan is the same. From Adam to the last man. Now freewill and choosing the Lord as saviour in order to be saved precludes a far greater people to eternal ****ation than does election. You can not account for people before Christ. You can not account for people who never hear the gospel as you say. You can not account for children wYho dies at birth or shortly thereafter because the Bible says all are born in sin and iniquity. Therefore freewill is much more the doctrine of exclusion. Not insulting you at all but God's choice would have been perfect. No? Gods choice at anytime would have been superior to that of mans. Correct? So if the Bible CLEARLY states that God foreknew a people and predestinated them and called them and conformed them and justified them and perservered them, then why does any man say I was my will. Christ saved THAT which was lost. Saved it. Meaning completely saved it. If it is completely saved, then it is finished. You preach the gospel to find the elect. So that the elect can NOW be like Israel and have fellowship with God just as the Jews had. Thats where your choice comes in. Do you fellowship with God? You can decide yes or no. However, if one reads the Bible, and lists everything that God does, only his actions, then it is undeniable that eternal salvation for his chosen has been set forth and done by his goodwill, his purpose, and his grace. Election and freewill salvation are contrary. Its either one or the other. If election is true, then the verse you read mean something else and i think they do. 

Chosen Gentiles now have what Israel has always had. Access. And that is thru Christ as Gods gift. Your faith is Gods gift. How do you exercise faith in Jesus before the gift is given?


----------



## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gt, i understand your thinking. However, it does not take into account those before Christ and those who never hear the gospel as you believe.*What do you believe about that? and what does that have to do with our salvation today?* Many will say he preached to the dead but thats an inference and not in the Bible.*Actually it is, that's where He spent His 3 days in the grave, in paradise preaching the gospel to whoever   had not heard it...ie OT, before Christ, etc.* Many say those who never hear will experience the same or go to Heaven out of ignorance.*What do y'all believe about that?* Once again, I havent read that.*It says all will hear and that's why we are still here, and besides what does that have to do with whether we are prechosen or not?*
> 
> What you describe is pretty much how we feel about a daily relationship with God. He gives you choice everyday and you can fellowship with him or not. Still, he knew no man would seek him.*That's why we preach the gospel in the name of Jesus Christ, we are God's voice, it's calling them thru us with the gospel.* Thats Bible. Its why in his plan, as in the Bible, he took the steps needed to accomplish it. *Yes, He sends us into the world to preach the gospel so that all might be saved.*
> 
> Perhaps we need to back up and study faith. What is it and how does one get it. Take emotion out of it. Simple black and white from scriptures.*Go ahead and start a thread on that, that would be a good thing.*



Peace


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Mtwoman, i do believe im eternally saved else i would no be able to confess Christ is Lord. It is Gods blessing to me that I can, not my will, but his.
> 
> My take is that God foreknew all of his elect from the entire



No one is saying God didn't foreknow us, I'm saying we are not prechosen.

Just like you have freewill to sin today or not, I believe we have free will to choose Jesus or deny Him today. God gave us that choice, He forced it on no one by presaving them.


----------



## gtparts

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gt, i understand your thinking. However, it does not take into account those before Christ and those who never hear the gospel as you believe. Many will say he preached to the dead but thats an inference and not in the Bible. Many say those who never hear will experience the same or go to Heaven out of ignorance. Once again, I havent read that.
> 
> What you describe is pretty much how we feel about a daily relationship with God. He gives you choice everyday and you can fellowship with him or not. Still, he knew no man would seek him. Thats Bible. Its why in his plan, as in the Bible, he took the steps needed to accomplish it.
> 
> Perhaps we need to back up and study faith. What is it and how does one get it. Take emotion out of it. Simple black and white from scriptures.



Not sure that your first paragraph is relevant to the matter, but Scripture indicates that salvation was available to the folks in the OT, by faith. Abraham comes immediately to mind. "Faith in what?", you might ask. You and I have faith in the events of 2000 years ago, the death, resurrection, and ascension of the only begotten Son of God. We look back for our redemption. Those that are saved in the OT looked forward, in faith, to God's redemptive work. But, even if that wasn't so, our sovereign God does not answer to our understanding. He can do and has done everything according to His will, not that of man. That means that I need not be concerned about  those that preceded me in life (or death). I trust God to always do what is right.

I think that most everyone involved in this thread would agree that faith is from God and God alone..... the faith to believe, to trust, to repent, even to agree with all that God directs toward us. Faith is "spiritual muscle". God gives it to us and expects us to use it. The first act of faith for the individual is when that person yields to God, embraces the truth, repents, and does a 180 degree turn towards Him. Now, he does not do any of that in his own strength, he does it by the strength God has given him or her...... but he or she must do it to be saved.

While we are on the subject of election, please give me your understanding of Luke 2:10. Feel free to use whatever translation or paraphrase you choose, that is not so obscure that it might go unrecognized by the majority of thread-followers here.

Here is the NKJV, for a start.

" Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people." 

Luke 2:10 

Thanks in advance. I just know you will have a response for the use of "all people".


----------



## Israel

It is finished.
We are just finding out how finished it is.

The lamb slain from the foundation of the world helps us.

To be done.


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## hummerpoo

gtparts said:


> Here is the NKJV, for a start.
> 
> " Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people."
> 
> Luke 2:10
> 
> Thanks in advance. I just know you will have a response for the use of "all people".



GT.... peace.  I'm not really responding to your example directly, but using it as an oportunity to express my frustration with the many examples of "all" that are brought up.  I have not seen one that is difinitive, and I doubt that such exists.

I believe that it has been pointed out that within the Greek word most often translated "all" there is a possible selective meaning (I choose not to explore the 1200+ uses for examples).  It is, of course, often difficult to determine whether that is the case in the passage under consideration.  Most often context, both immediate and wider, is the most helpful in making that determination.  We also find at times minor variations in manuscripts.  Then for those of us who have not devoted a major portion of our lives studying ancient Greek (or as in my case, must depend upon secondary sources) we must muddle through the opinions of others.  I have satisfied myself that this selective meaning does exist, and most often look to context because digging it out elsewhere is tedious.

In the case of Luke 2:10 the immediate context seems to the point.  In most translations the end of the quote is similar to the New American Bible (which I chose because it is generally known to oppose the Reformed view)

Luke 2:14 "Glory to God in the highest and on earth peace to those on whom his favor rests." 

I hasten to admit that an understanding of who God favors comes next.

At least a major portion of the point I am trying to make is that when the angels (messengers of God) announced the arrival of our Lord Jesus Christ they ended it with "Glory to God" and "peace" to his favored on earth.  Is it really that difficult for those whom He favors to accept the blessing?


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## gtparts

mtnwoman said:


> Ok NAS then..
> 
> John 3:16
> New American Standard Bible (NASB)
> 
> 
> 16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
> 
> Leave out world and it still says....He gave His [a]only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.



Since this verse tells us what God did and why He did it, it sometimes serves to take the information (in that order) and look at it from the standpoint of examining the action and, then, the cause.

John 3:16 could be rendered this way.

He (God) gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, for (because) God so loved the world.

Now, I'm not for rewriting that verse, except to say that sometimes the meaning is more clear by considering syntactical restructure to a more current style. The motivation (God so loved) and the action He took based on that motivation (He gave His .... Son) are both significant to the verse and the whole chapter..... even, the whole of Scripture. I tend to weight the phrase, "whoever believes", to express the intent to provide opportunity to all by the "giving" of His Son. If that is how God would have us understand this verse, then the the word "world" in the initial phrase must mean "every one". In English, the phrase is subordinate to the idea expressed in the proper sentence to which it is attached. The meaning of "world", then, depends on how we understand the word "whoever" and not vice versa.

(For the record, I am not a Greek scholar, nor an English scholar, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express some time in the past.)


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## mtnwoman

gtparts said:


> Since this verse tells us what God did and why He did it, it sometimes serves to take the information (in that order) and look at it from the standpoint of examining the action and, then, the cause.
> 
> John 3:16 could be rendered this way.
> 
> He (God) gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life, for (because) God so loved the world.
> 
> Now, I'm not for rewriting that verse, except to say that sometimes the meaning is more clear by considering syntactical restructure to a more current style. The motivation (God so loved) and the action He took based on that motivation (He gave His .... Son) are both significant to the verse and the whole chapter..... even, the whole of Scripture. I tend to weight the phrase, "whoever believes", to express the intent to provide opportunity to all by the "giving" of His Son. If that is how God would have us understand this verse, then the the word "world" in the initial phrase must mean "every one". In English, the phrase is subordinate to the idea expressed in the proper sentence to which it is attached. The meaning of "world", then, depends on how we understand the word "whoever" and not vice versa.*Amen!!! I totally agree.*
> 
> (For the record, I am not a Greek scholar, nor an English scholar, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express some time in the past.)



Yeah, I'm pretty sure there are people on this earth now and then that could translate greek and or hebrew into englay. lol


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## CollinsCraft77

The question gt is just who can believe? One has to believe with faith. Correct? A man dead in sins and trespasses has no faith.

We know he is not physically dead. He is spiritually dead and if dead, how can something dead come to life to make such a leap of faith? He is dead.

So one can deduct that something must change in him for he to become spiritually able to make such a decision. God quickens the person, who has been chosen according to his grace, purpose and will which was determined in himself to his good pleasure before the foundation of the world. This the Bible says and it is indisputable if you believe the Bible to be the authentic Word. Now if God regenerates, quickens the individual, he is "born again". He now can live his life in faith because God has given him the gift of faith. The point Im trying to make is something spiritually dead can not make itself suddenly alive. You cant say well God made me partially alive long enough for me to choose him and if I dont he lets me die again. No. And it clearly states he calls you. Its irresistable. Lazarus came bound hand and foot and so did you. Could Lazarus have said no? He was dead. And so were we till he called. Its the effectual call of God. Like the wind that bloweth to and fro........ So are those born of the spirit. You cant see Anything of God with dead eyes.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> The question gt is just who can believe? One has to believe with faith. Correct? A man dead in sins and trespasses has no faith.
> 
> We know he is not physically dead. He is spiritually dead and if dead, how can something dead come to life to make such a leap of faith? He is dead.
> 
> So one can deduct that something must change in him for he to become spiritually able to make such a decision. God quickens the person, who has been chosen according to his grace, purpose and will which was determined in himself to his good pleasure before the foundation of the world. This the Bible says and it is indisputable if you believe the Bible to be the authentic Word. Now if God regenerates, quickens the individual, he is "born again". He now can live his life in faith because God has given him the gift of faith. The point Im trying to make is something spiritually dead can not make itself suddenly alive. You cant say well God made me partially alive long enough for me to choose him and if I dont he lets me die again. No. And it clearly states he calls you. Its irresistable. Lazarus came bound hand and foot and so did you. Could Lazarus have said no? He was dead. And so were we till he called. Its the effectual call of God. Like the wind that bloweth to and fro........ So are those born of the spirit. You cant see Anything of God with dead eyes.



Well actually we hear the gospel first, which is the living word of God, that either does or doesn't ***** our hearts. If it does then we believe by faith and repent. 

Faith is on our part not Gods.

You talk about dead spiritually and then bring up Lazarus, that is not a good example. Lazarus believed in the flesh and in the spirit that Jesus is who He said He is. So when Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus he came forth....'my sheep hear my voice and they follow/obey me'. Using  Lazarus is like using Pharoah who never believed in God, and was gonna never believe in God and God used Pharoah to free the Jews forever and ever. Lazarus wasn't dead spiritually was he? So how can you compare that to the spiritually dead? Me and you are suppose to be out preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is the calling, people either wake up or they don't.

Hearing the gospel is what God uses to woe/awaken us to Him and it's for everyone, who will come forth and believe. The gospel is 'the living word of God', that is what wakes us up. Most people have heard the gospel now, not back then, so most have had a chance to open their ears and 'hear'.....like the sermon on the mount...for those who will open their ears and hear it....not for some but for all who will believe.


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## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> The question gt is just who can believe? One has to believe with faith. Correct? A man dead in sins and trespasses has no faith.
> 
> "Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God".  Biblically speaking, dozens of times in the Bible, a person has to "come" "to" "God" "in" "faith".
> 
> We know he is not physically dead. He is spiritually dead and if dead, how can something dead come to life to make such a leap of faith? He is dead.
> 
> The above sounds good, but it isn't scriptural.  the 1st 4 chapters of Romans make it clear that every living being has enough evidence surrounding them to have faith in God.  The stars proclaim it.  The perfection of creation proclaims it.  No one has an excuse, according to Paul.
> 
> So one can deduct that something must change in him for he to become spiritually able to make such a decision. God quickens the person, who has been chosen according to his grace, purpose and will which was determined in himself to his good pleasure before the foundation of the world. This the Bible says and it is indisputable if you believe the Bible to be the authentic Word. Now if God regenerates, quickens the individual, he is "born again". He now can live his life in faith because God has given him the gift of faith. The point Im trying to make is something spiritually dead can not make itself suddenly alive. You cant say well God made me partially alive long enough for me to choose him and if I dont he lets me die again. No. And it clearly states he calls you. Its irresistable. Lazarus came bound hand and foot and so did you. Could Lazarus have said no? He was dead. And so were we till he called. Its the effectual call of God. Like the wind that bloweth to and fro........ So are those born of the spirit. You cant see Anything of God with dead eyes.
> 
> Well, I've got to admit, I've never seen anyone use Lazarus as proof of God's pre ordination of individual salvation.



CC, I read it and I've thought about it but am still convinced that it sounds good, but it just ain't Bible stuff to me.
Did you get your daughter's bedroom painted?  That's the most important thing.


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## CollinsCraft77

One, Lazarus is proof of the effectual calling of God, not so much the preordination. 

Not scriptual? Spiritual death? Dead in trespasses and sins?? Pretty simple there Ronnie and it doesnt matter how much evidence nature has, if he has not the Spirit he can not discern them.

1 cor 2:14 the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 

Discerned meaning understood. So this one verse kind of puts that to rest does it not?


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## CollinsCraft77

And yes sir I did. I appreciate the concern and Im blessed that I do not do that for a living.

By the way, which translation of the Bible do you use? I was always KJV but recently I have bought several new translations. What do you prefer?


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## hummerpoo

These three post (996, 997, 998) should give understanding to many on both sides of this discussion.  At the heart of the issue is each persons God-view and man-view.  We develop our understanding of who God is and who man is and the relationship between them from scripture and observation of the world. (I first said; as guided by the Spirit.  But that lends bias which I wish to avoid).

Not much discussed in this thread is the “Glory of God”.  Yet, that is the major theme of the whole of the Bible.  Some read the scriptures and observe the creation and see God in total control of His Glory.  Others, from the same sources, see His Glory dependent upon the free acts of His creation.  To the latter Glory freely bestowed is greater than Glory self controlled.  To the former the uncontrolled creation is incapable of bestowing Glory to the Creator.

Is the Creator faulty? … No.
Is the creation faulty? … No.
Is the revelation faulty? … No.
Is the revelation incomplete? ... Perhaps.
Will God be Glorified? ...Yes.


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## Ronnie T

Yesterday's forum scripture for the day:

1 John 5
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. Whoever does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne concerning his Son. 11 And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.


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## CollinsCraft77

Sounds right. And back to my question from yesterday, just who can believe in God? Those to whom the gift of faith has been given. Those whom God has called. Who receives the call? The elect. Remember, the sheep hear Christs voice and like Lazarus, they come.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Did you just say that every person who hears the gospel accepts it and faithfully believes in Jesus Christ?
> Is that what you say?



Sorry I missed this Ronnie. That is what I said. Only the sheep hear the Gospel. Does Christ call goats in order to make them sheep, or does He call His own sheep by name (John 10.3)?


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## ambush80

I've been following this very closely and I have to tell you all, as a completely objective observer I can't tell which one's of you think you are more special, the ones who think they have been chosen or the ones who thing they have the ability to choose.


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## CollinsCraft77

Never said anything about being special. Actually I feel that while God makes the choice, so much more the responsibilties to the chosen. Its actually I feel tougher on the individual.

But Im not sure where anybody on either side has said we are special nor better than the other but I guess all opinions are fair game.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Well actually we hear the gospel first, which is the living word of God, that either does or doesn't ***** our hearts. If it does then we believe by faith and repent.



Why would it not "***** our hearts"? 



mtnwoman said:


> Faith is on our part not Gods.



Before any sinner can or will come to Christ, he must be born again. Faith is the result, not the cause of a new birth. That faith is the gift of God. Faith is not the work of your imaginary free will. Faith is the gift of God's sovereign grace, the result of God's operation on the heart. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."




mtnwoman said:


> You talk about dead spiritually and then bring up Lazarus, that is not a good example. Lazarus believed in the flesh and in the spirit that Jesus is who He said He is. So when Lazarus heard the voice of Jesus he came forth....'my sheep hear my voice and they follow/obey me'.



So are you saying Lazarus came forth spiritually and not physically? 



mtnwoman said:


> Me and you are suppose to be out preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ, that is the calling, people either wake up or they don't.



And why do you suppose they either "wake up or they don't"? And who makes them to wake up or not?


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Why would it not "***** our hearts"?
> Matthew 13:58 And He did not do many miracles there because of their unbelief.
> Romans 11:20  Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
> 
> Before any sinner can or will come to Christ, he must be born again. Faith is the result, not the cause of a new birth. That faith is the gift of God. Faith is not the work of your imaginary free will. Faith is the gift of God's sovereign grace, the result of God's operation on the heart. "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."
> 
> Complete unscriptural thinking and teaching, except for the scripture itself.  A person absolutely cannot be born again without God being involved in the process.  Do you really think a person has to be born again before he can "come" to Christ?  How could a person without faith be born again???  What would be their motivation to be born again?  And without faith, how would they even realize what the term means?
> 
> 
> So are you saying Lazarus came forth spiritually and not physically?
> 
> Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus.  And that's the beginning and end of the story.  Lazarus was raised from the dead by Jesus; he came forth still wrapped in the buriel binding; Jesus had the people unbind Lazarus.  And Jesus didn't roll the stone away from the grave entrance, he commanded the people remove it.  Jesus has always had expectations of the people.
> 
> And why do you suppose they either "wake up or they don't"? And who makes them to wake up or not?
> 
> Why won't some wake up?  Cause they stupid, selfcentered people.
> God has a plan for those who won't "wake up".
> Revelation 3:3
> So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you.



Again, I wish you'd quote some scripture occasionally.  Without scripture, it's just opinion.

Here's a question:
As the apostles built upon Christ's church throughout the book of Acts and other writings, what always came first:  faith or salvation?


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Why would it not "***** our hearts"? *It would ***** our hearts, but it won't ***** everyone's heart....I thought you'd agree with that.*
> 
> 
> 
> Before any sinner can or will come to Christ, he must be born again.*We are born again after we accept Christ, or even at the same time. I don't think we can be born again before we come to Christ....which came first salvation or baptism? * Faith is the result, not the cause of a new birth.*If you have faith of a mustard seed by hearing the gospel...that's all Christs asks for...just the faith of a mustard seed. How could you have faith before you even heard the gospel, especially when you say no one seeks God...what would they have faith in?* That faith is the gift of God. Faith is not the work of your imaginary free will.*Why do you keep saying imaginary free will....I have free will, whosoever believes, not whosoever is chosen. I believe it's your imagination that God picked and chose people to go to hades, but not you.* Faith is the gift of God's sovereign grace, the result of God's operation on the heart. *That is offered to all, reread the sermon on the mount, Christ clearly says who ever will believe...why would they believe if they've never heard anything to believe in.*"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."*Correct, we all agree on that....God gives us ALL the grace, but some will not receive it. Read again the sermon on the mount.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So are you saying Lazarus came forth spiritually and not physically? * Didn't I just just get thru saying he did both? So Nope, he came forth because He heard His masters/shepherds voice. So are you saying that Lazarus came forth physically and not spiritually? We all know that Lazarus believed in Christ already...I don't get the point at all in using Lazarus as something to prove your point. Lazarus wasn't spiritually dead, was he?He was physically dead...Jesus resurrected him because of his belief, well actually Lazarus answered the call because He heard His Lords voice. So that can no where compare to a person who is dead spiritually and cannot or won't hear.You say the spiritually dead are called like Lazarus that is incorrect, Lazarus was not spiritually dead, now was he?*
> 
> 
> 
> And why do you suppose they either "wake up or they don't"? And who makes them to wake up or not?


*The gospel of Jesus Christ which comes from God...and God wants us to spread it.  Do you actually think almost everyone in the USA has heard at least a part of the gospel? I do....all do not wake up. It's out there, people hear, yet they can decline, and they can also accept. It's not a secret passage to salvation, it's all over the place. *

*Why do you think you should be prechosen to be saved? Are/were you not equal in sin as everyone else?
And are you part of the world just like everyone else that is alive?
I'm saved because God offered me a gift and I believed it, and God loves those who love His son, not because He said hey you look like a good candidate to save.

*

The Jehovahs Witness think they are chosen/elect, just because they think that, does that make them correct?...they too believe they were prechosen by God and you think you are?....like God only had certain people in mind to save.

Which came first your belief or your salvation? Do you really believe that you were saved before you believed and repented unlike the rest of us. We have to believe and repent, and you were just selected?


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Why would it not "***** our hearts"?



Your opinion, is the gospel will not ***** the hearts of the unchosen, even though they hear the gospel....most people in the country have heard it, it's not like it's only spoken to the elect, because we don't know who they are, correct?....everyone hears it. But everyone doesn't accept it.

The intention of preaching the gospel is to ***** everyones heart. But it doesn't do that for everyone, why doesn't it? I don't know because people don't wanna believe it? That's the only reason I can think of that it would or wouldn't ***** a persons heart. Yet the gospel is 'designed' and God's desire for it to ***** everyone's heart, but it just doesn't.

Just hearing the gospel does not mean it pricks our hearts....obviously...or most people would be saved in the USA at least.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Sorry I missed this Ronnie. That is what I said. Only the sheep hear the Gospel. Does Christ call goats in order to make them sheep, or does He call His own sheep by name (John 10.3)?



Why don't you read the entire chaper of John 10? Thru that entire chapter Jesus says, if you believe...if you believe if you believe. 
He's talking about satan coming in and trying to call the sheep astray.

Here's the entire chapter, how can you base an entire doctrine on a verse here and there....I was once a goat, now I'm a sheep....were you a sheep from the time you were born, oh yeah I'm sure you were. You automatically just poofed into the fold because of preselection. 

Lord help us Jesus.

10
 1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. *satan/wolf in sheeps clothing*

 2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. *Jesus*

 3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. *Jesus and His believers*

 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. *Jesus*

 5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. *Satan or false doctrine etc)*

 6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. *Who was Jesus talking to?*

 7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. *Our only way in.*

 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. *False prophets and teachers*

 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. *Safe and nothing will snatch them away from Him*

 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy:*satan and false doctrine* I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 

 11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. *and Jesus did*

 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. *demons/satan/false teachers and preachers of false doctrine*

 13The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. *Obviously if you try to get someone to believe something that Christ did not say, like the JWs and others..false teacher.*

 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 

 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 

 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. *Different people, Jews, gentiles...etc*

 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 

 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 

 19There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings. 

 20And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him? 

 21Others said, These are not the words of him that hath a devil. Can a devil open the eyes of the blind? *No, he tries to trip us up on God's word*

 22And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 

 23And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 

 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 

 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 

 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. *Really? yet the Jews are chosen, too. And God didn't make them believe.*

 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 

 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 

 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. *They are the ones that chose to believe Jesus is who He is, God gave them to Jesus to be their shepherd to lead them home/heaven.*

 30I and my Father are one. 

 31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. *Wow, and yet they are also chosen?*

 32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? *Jesus talking to the Jews.*

 33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 

 34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 

 35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 

 36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified,*Talking to the Jews, their choseness did not take, did it?* and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? *Jesus talking about Himself to the chosen Jews.*

 37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 

 38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. *Why would Jesus keep trying to get thru to the chosen, if they were predestined to be saved? Was He trying to get them to believe, even though they were prechosen? and why?*

 39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand, 

 40And went away again beyond Jordan into the place where John at first baptized; and there he abode. 

 41And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true. 

 42And many believed on him there.*Not all of God's chosen believed, did they? *

Peace


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Sounds right. And back to my question from yesterday, just who can believe in God?*God and Jesus both said whosoever.* Those to whom the gift of faith has been given.*We believe by faith, the gift is not faith, Jesus is the gift.* Those whom God has called..*which is everyone* Who receives the call?*Everyone who has heard the gospel can receive but all won't.* The elect. Remember, the sheep hear Christs voice and like Lazarus, they come.*You've got an entire doctrine based on Lazarus coming out of the grave. Lazarus was not dead spiritually, just like I am not, wherever I am in the grave or at the rapture, I will hear His voice and I will follow. And I do that everyday anyway, I hear His voice.*



Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace that was given me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think as to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to each man a measure of faith.

These are believers already, and they are given a measure of faith. Unbelievers 'chosen' or not, don't have faith yet.
And no one is more highly than another for having faith. You are given faith after you first believe who Jesus is, faith for the rest of the story and faith grows. A mustard seed is a very tiny seed, that grows into one of the biggest herb bushes.


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## CollinsCraft77

Mtwoman, a simple question. Is god sovereign? Do you believe Gid has the power, the right to do anything he wants? At anytime he wants? To whomever? Is God almighty?


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## CollinsCraft77

Also, you are given faith after you first believe? Unbelievers believe then are given faith? Read that slowly. Why are they given faith if theyve already believed? Why give faith at all? They have already showed faith in believing.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Again, I wish you'd quote some scripture occasionally.  Without scripture, it's just opinion.



It is odd to me that you lay that charge in the same post where you offer so much opinion.



Ronnie T said:


> A person absolutely cannot be born again without God being involved in the process.



Agree! So much for free will huh?



Ronnie T said:


> Do you really think a person has to be born again before he can "come" to Christ?



Absolutely. (John 3:6,7)



Ronnie T said:


> How could a person without faith be born again?



 Again, faith is the result of a new birth. The new birth is not something you do. It is something God does for you. (John 1:12-13). You can't save yourself. You can't give yourself life. You can't be born again by something you do (Titus 3:4-6). Your imaginary free will cannot raise you from death to life. The new birth is God's work. Not even faith in Christ can accomplish the new birth. Faith in Christ is not the cause of the new birth. Faith is the result of the new birth according to the working of God's mighty power, by his grace. (Ephesians 1:19, 2:8) (Colossians 2:11,12) 



Ronnie T said:


> What would be their motivation to be born again?



They have none. (Romans 3:11)




Ronnie T said:


> Why won't some wake up? Cause they stupid, selfcentered people.



Much worse than that. They are incapable.(Romans 3:11)


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## Israel

I am saved by free will.


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## CollinsCraft77

No sir, you are saved by grace.


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## gemcgrew

CollinsCraft77 said:


> No sir, you are saved by grace.



I think you may have just taken the bait. He didn't say yet by whose will.


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## CollinsCraft77

Gotcha. And your probably right. I have been known to do that. Sometimes I get so frustrated because it is just right there in front of me, plain as day when I read the Word.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Also, you are given faith after you first believe?*No you have faith to believe.* Unbelievers believe then are given faith?*No that's what you're saying. Have you always believed? Well before you believed you weren't given faith to believe? You just said you were.* Read that slowly. Why are they given faith if theyve already believed? *When I hear the gospel I believe by faith, because at that moment that's all I have is the faith of a mustard seed. That seed grows into one of the largest herb bushes on earth, as I am with Christ more and more. See sermom on the mount.*  Why give faith at all? They have already showed faith in believing. *Now yes, I can agree with that. If you were given faith before you believed wouldn't you have had faith to believe before you did? Especially wouldn't you already had faith before from birth if you were chosen? Faith is by hearing...hearing what? The gospel.*



Peace


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I think you may have just taken the bait. He didn't say yet by whose will.



I personally don't believe that was meant as bait. I could be wrong.


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## mtnwoman

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Mtwoman, a simple question. Is god sovereign? Do you believe Gid has the power, the right to do anything he wants? At anytime he wants? To whomever? Is God almighty?



Yes to all above. (another one of your attempts at baiting..lol) We don't have to try and trick you up with answers as gemc says about Israel....we just use what God's word says, we don't need a trick bag.  Of course I believe God can do anything He wants to. If He wants to choose He'd say that wouldn't He? He doesn't, He says right off in the beginning of the gospel.....whosoever believes...no trick, just God's living word. And unto 'US' is born this day a saviour...it doesn't say for unto the chosen is born this day, does it?

And you left out the fact that He also has the power, sovereignty anytime, anywhere, gives us free will when He wants to.  If we didn't have free will, why would we have sinned in the first place?? if God wanted to MAKE us believe by His choice, He could've had us up outta here a long time ago. Because we have been prechosen and who's  gonna be saved will be saved right?

Explain to me why on earth would God create people intentionally to be lost? and to be in hades for eternity? why would He?  

If you believe that being chosen makes being saved more special, then that makes you special, right? because He chose you out of millions? Just like chosing in a school game, the so called special are always called, and they know they are special and they know they will be chosen, I have found that to be true in human nature. Why is it hard to believe God let's us choose what we want to believe? The words 'whosoever believes' is God's word. You can twist that into whatever you want to and believe that only so and so will be saved, just like the JWs believe they are chosen and special....do you believe they are?


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## Israel

mtnwoman said:


> I personally don't believe that was meant as bait. I could be wrong.


you think well of me, perhaps, Annie...and, if so, I appreciate it.

How easily we make "us" the focus of everything. But in his light is the only place I find light. I know nothing of myself apart from that light...and so...whenever I am tempted to reason my "part" in anything, I am instantly lost when I look at myself...no light there.
So, yes, I see the only free will there is, the only place in which freedom and liberty are not just words...but life indeed.

It has always been Jesus. 
One could, perhaps, open a metaphysical extrahyper dualinistic flux capacitor generated translogistical reverberator...and plug it in to "see" precisely which comes first...the chicken or the egg.
But all things are of God. No need to try to see around or past him, no way to get past grace and truth.
These are all found in the one true and faithful witness, Jesus Christ, who is both alpha and omega, author and finisher...and who alone, by his free will, has saved...

Joh_10:18  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. 


and this:

Mat_26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 


I see one who is absolutely free...even coulda called upon the Father and cried..."enough of this"

And by that free will, I am beginning to barely see..."whom the son sets free, is free indeed..."


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## CollinsCraft77

I believe you wholeheartedly believe what you do mtwoman.

Its no trick. You do not believe in total depravity. You do not believe you are born spiritually dead. Ok.

You say you believe in God's sovereignty but deny that he has chosen people before the foundation of the world. I mean, thats right out of his Word. Why would the potter make one lump to honour and another lump to dishonor? And why would Jesus already know his sheep? Why was Titus elect of God? 

I always find it fascinating when someone says one out of a million? Nobody here has ever said it was exclusive to a chosen few. Rather, its a chosen many, from every tribe and tongue, before Christ and after Christ. Nobody said it was a little amount. 

And yes, I do feel special to know God is in control and loved me. I feel it but I do not deserve it. 

His faith is a gift to you. You do not have any faith to turn to him. Emnity against God. Thats what we are. The power of man is squat. Freewill, imho, renders the cross as only a partial victory. Adam rendered us to destruction. Not God. For all have sinned. Now if you believe in Gods sovereignty, then surely you must admit, regardless if you believe it or not, but surely you must admit that if he were so inclined, he had every right, every power to do as he sees fit, and if he so elected a certain people to be saved just because of his will alone, he would have that right. No?


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## gordon 2

From where did Paul get this?

Hebrews 2: 13 

And again,
"I will put my trust in Him."  

And again,

"Behold, I and the Children whom God has given Me."


-----------------

Don't know why but this seems a good thing to share today:


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## hummerpoo

mtnwoman said:


> 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.
> 
> 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
> 
> 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
> 
> 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
> 
> 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. *They are the ones that chose to believe Jesus is who He is, God gave them to Jesus to be their shepherd to lead them home/heaven.*
> 
> Peace



I think that the difference in understanding comes at vs. 29.

vs24 thru 26 establishes that Jesus is talking to Jews who “do not believe because they are not His sheep”.

Starting at 27; few would disagree that believers (sheep) (Jew or Gentile)hear Christ voice as they go through life; none would deny that Christ knows who the sheep are, and perhaps a few more would doubt that they follow Him.

On to 28; there are, I believe, several (speaking of believers today) who struggle with the concept of the oneness of Jesus and the Father (probably most do to some degree) and from that might come a small question at this point on the statement “I give unto them eternal life” but Jesus deals with that later.  There are several denominations that teach that salvation can be lost.  They come from the free will camp and believe that if one can choose to take up salvation he can also lay it down.  For them the critical part of the conclusion of vs. 28 is “any man”, thus concluding that the one who choose salvation can un-choose it but that no one else can do that for him.

At this point we should acknowledge an order of events.  First the sheep hear His voice, next He recognizes them, next they follow Him, then He gives eternal life.  Concurrent with the giving of eternal life is the declaration that it is permanent, notwithstanding the view acknowledged above.

Then vs. 29 “My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.” (yes, there is that pesky word “all”, and it is the Greek “pas”, and yes, it is a critical factor as it touches upon God’s greatness, or sovereignty, and whether He has given up, or sovereignly assigned, some portion of His greatness or sovereignty, to His creation as relates to salvation.)  Forgoing the “all” question for now and back to the order; where does the Father’s giving of the sheep to Christ, the shepherd, fit in the order of events: after they hear; after He recognizes; after they follow; or after He gives eternal life?  If after they hear then Jesus does not recognize his sheep.  If it is after Jesus recognizes it would reverse the many statements Jesus makes about His being guided by the Father.  If after they follow it would make works prerequisite to giving of eternal life.  If after Jesus gives eternal life then “greater than all” is superfluous.

Where then does the Father’s giving the sheep to the Son fit?  At the one place not yet considered; prior to the hearing.  Consistent with “all” being all of creation in this context.  Consistent with Jesus being guided by the Father in His incarnation.  And consistent with oneness in eternity.

This isn’t the only way I’ve looked at it; but the other ways that I have imagined to explain the order, have mixed the oneness into the order, which negates the separation given in the passage.

Although some will not believe it to be true, I did not set down these thoughts with an eye to convincing anyone that every idea advanced in favor of the election view, not to be understood as election after the fact, is correct.  I once heard Dr. J. Vernon McGee say that the doctrine of election was indeed in scripture, but should never be taught because no one could understand it (he did not say the same about the doctrine of the Trinity).  I do not agree with his position.  I do not claim to fully understand election.  I do believe that not recognizing election detracts from the Glory of God.  Because I do not fully understand election, I can not deny every idea that does not precisely align with my own.  The concerns about some aspects of election theology have legitimacy (as I recognized in post #3 of this thread), but denial of election, I can not accept without accepting limits on the sovereignty of God in my life.

Some on both sides of the question say it’s all one way or the other, and to question one part is to question the whole.  Is that not to claim that our thoughts are God’s thoughts and our ways God’s ways?

Now I think I will devote myself to more mundane pursuits.


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## TimB

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I believe you wholeheartedly believe what you do mtwoman.
> 
> Its no trick. You do not believe in total depravity. You do not believe you are born spiritually dead. Ok.
> 
> You say you believe in God's sovereignty but deny that he has chosen people before the foundation of the world. I mean, thats right out of his Word. Why would the potter make one lump to honour and another lump to dishonor? And why would Jesus already know his sheep? Why was Titus elect of God?
> 
> I always find it fascinating when someone says one out of a million? Nobody here has ever said it was exclusive to a chosen few. Rather, its a chosen many, from every tribe and tongue, before Christ and after Christ. Nobody said it was a little amount.
> 
> And yes, I do feel special to know God is in control and loved me. I feel it but I do not deserve it.
> 
> His faith is a gift to you. You do not have any faith to turn to him. Emnity against God. Thats what we are. The power of man is squat. Freewill, imho, renders the cross as only a partial victory. Adam rendered us to destruction. Not God. For all have sinned. Now if you believe in Gods sovereignty, then surely you must admit, regardless if you believe it or not, but surely you must admit that if he were so inclined, he had every right, every power to do as he sees fit, and if he so elected a certain people to be saved just because of his will alone, he would have that right. No?







> Act 2:17	 	And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh:
> 
> 
> 
> Act 2:21	 	And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord _shall_ be saved.




Depravity or not it looks to me like "All" means All and "Whosoever" means Whosoever and further it looks like the "calling on his name" precedes "being saved". 

Just sayin'.


----------



## StriperAddict

*Paradox, yet faith*

There is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.

Perhaps this is something of a providential paradox, as our sorrow unto salvation has a moment of angelic rejoicing.  

By grace are we saved thru faith, and not of ourselves, it is Gods gift (Eph2:8).

All I know is that broken men/women come to the water to receive the free blessing of life which they neither deserve (being in the sin-seed of Adam) nor have 'worked' for (to gain the birthright in Christ). 

John <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-26129">3:8</sup> The  wind blows where it wishes and _you hear the sound of it, but do not  know where it comes from and where it is going_; so is everyone who is  born of the Spirit.


----------



## ambush80

Think of it this way:  In order for me to believe in that  Jesus is the son of God again it would take a miracle; a for real, supernatural, not anything a man/woman preacher/witness did miracle.  

If that ever happened, I would be hard pressed to say that it was anything that I did because everything that I am screams out that the Bible is bogus.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Ambush, is not life itself a miracle? When I hunt, I just observe nature and think how miraculous its design is. Miracles are all around you. Everyday. You may need the "wow" factor I guess but I have been there and I understand. Seriously, I do.

I just dont put as much stock in chance. My kids are miracles, albeit a pain in the backside at times. Lol! I think back to my teen years and think of all the times I could have died doing stupid stuff. Chance? Perhaps. Divine intervention? Perhaps. I choose the latter. But to me, life itself is a miracle. 

To me, its scarier to rely on chance than to believe there is a God.


----------



## ambush80

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ambush, is not life itself a miracle? When I hunt, I just observe nature and think how miraculous its design is. Miracles are all around you. Everyday. You may need the "wow" factor I guess but I have been there and I understand. Seriously, I do.
> 
> I just dont put as much stock in chance. My kids are miracles, albeit a pain in the backside at times. Lol! I think back to my teen years and think of all the times I could have died doing stupid stuff. Chance? Perhaps. Divine intervention? Perhaps. I choose the latter. But to me, life itself is a miracle.
> 
> To me, its scarier to rely on chance than to believe there is a God.



Many of the workings of the Universe are indeed beyond my comprehension.  I never even got a full grasp of calculus but that's not enough reason for me to say that calculus is magic.  

If you want to make a rational argument for the existence of God then I invite you a couple of floors down, to the basement of the Spiritual Help and Religious Discussions section.  A dingy little sub-forum we call the "Triple A".

Back to the OP.  I am in 100% agreement with you and some others as to what the Bible says about election as well as what the Bible says about God's power and the futility of trying to criticize His plan using human notions of justice.  It's written in plain English for everyone to see (translated from Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Olde English).  


I once tried to put a bookshelf together.   I followed the instructions carefully but at a certain point, the instructions stopped making sense.  After pulling all the parts out, examining them, making careful comparison to what was in the manual and what was actually before me it finally dawned on me that I was looking at the wrong manual.  

Children of Abraham, what are you worshiping?


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> I personally don't believe that was meant as bait. I could be wrong.



I did not mean it in a negative way. I was pretty sure he was waiting for a response before he explained further, and he did.



mtnwoman said:


> We don't have to try and trick you up with answers as gemc says about Israel....



Totally uncalled for and not true.


----------



## Israel

How I see it?

I can't even "be" without God. 

How can I not then know that everything is of God, whether it be my being, my salvation as that being...or my next breath.

Oh! to the millions of star clusters to which I could be scattered in a moment were he not to hold me together and uphold me by the word of his power.

For me to "be" saved...there must first be a me. I act sometimes like I willed myself into being...but...I'm busted.


Thanks be to God!


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> How I see it?
> 
> I can't even "be" without God.
> 
> How can I not then know that everything is of God, whether it be my being, my salvation as that being...or my next breath.
> 
> Oh! to the millions of star clusters to which I could be scattered in a moment were he not to hold me together and uphold me by the word of his power.
> 
> For me to "be" saved...there must first be a me. I act sometimes like I willed myself into being...but...I'm busted.
> 
> 
> Thanks be to God!




I understand and agree. Please do not be offended in my comment. I did not mean for it to be offensive.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> How I see it?
> 
> I can't even "be" without God.
> 
> How can I not then know that everything is of God, whether it be my being, my salvation as that being...or my next breath.
> 
> Oh! to the millions of star clusters to which I could be scattered in a moment were he not to hold me together and uphold me by the word of his power.
> 
> For me to "be" saved...there must first be a me. I act sometimes like I willed myself into being...but...I'm busted.
> 
> 
> Thanks be to God!




And even if I'm one of the ones born to suffer then thanks be to God as well, eh?  

I can live with that.  Who am I to argue?


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> And _even if I'm one of the ones born to suffer then_ thanks be to God as well, eh?
> 
> I can live with that.  Who am I to argue?



God forbid.

Ambush, I have no boast.
Take my ticket.


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> I understand and agree. Please do not be offended in my comment. I did not mean for it to be offensive.


ahhh, brother...you didn't and don't offend me at all...I got a full time job dealing with this self thing here...it keeps trying to mutate...it tells me "see, I am nice now, can I come down"?


----------



## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> I did not mean it in a negative way. I was pretty sure he was waiting for a response before he explained further, and he did.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally uncalled for and not true.



Ahhhhh I see, ok for you but no one else, eh?


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> Think of it this way:  In order for me to believe in that  Jesus is the son of God again it would take a miracle; a for real, supernatural, not anything a man/woman preacher/witness did miracle.
> 
> If that ever happened, I would be hard pressed to say that it was anything that I did because everything that I am screams out that the Bible is bogus.



I can't say we all, but I can say that most of us felt the same way before we believed. We heard the gospel and something supernatural happened by hearing the word, let he who has ears hear.....I was just open to it. I wasn't saved because it was popular to be saved at my church, and I wasn't saved because God made me believe. God LET me believe.

It was like I had an open heart surgery and God created in me a heart  that was tender towards Him...because I loved Jesus. I couldn't help it, I just loved Jesus since I was very young, I guess because He first loved me. 

Ambush, God doesn't choose for you to be condemned.


----------



## mtnwoman

ambush80 said:


> And even if I'm one of the ones born to suffer then thanks be to God as well, eh?
> 
> I can live with that.  Who am I to argue?



Ima naysayer on that. God doesn't make mistakes when He creates anything, even us. God would never choose for you to suffer, Jesus suffered for you, God just asks you to receive that, and believe it and love His Son, like His Son loves you enough to die for you.


----------



## mtnwoman

StriperAddict said:


> There is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents.
> 
> Perhaps this is something of a providential paradox, as our sorrow unto salvation has a moment of angelic rejoicing.
> 
> By grace are we saved thru faith, and not of ourselves, it is Gods gift (Eph2:8).
> 
> All I know is that broken men/women come to the water to receive the free blessing of life which they neither deserve (being in the sin-seed of Adam) nor have 'worked' for (to gain the birthright in Christ).
> 
> John <sup class="versenum" id="en-NASB-26129">3:8</sup> The  wind blows where it wishes and _you hear the sound of it, but do not  know where it comes from and where it is going_; so is everyone who is  born of the Spirit.



I agree!

Great post.


----------



## mtnwoman

Israel said:


> you think well of me, perhaps, Annie...and, if so, I appreciate it.
> 
> How easily we make "us" the focus of everything. But in his light is the only place I find light. I know nothing of myself apart from that light...and so...whenever I am tempted to reason my "part" in anything, I am instantly lost when I look at myself...no light there.
> So, yes, I see the only free will there is, the only place in which freedom and liberty are not just words...but life indeed.
> 
> It has always been Jesus.
> One could, perhaps, open a metaphysical extrahyper dualinistic flux capacitor generated translogistical reverberator...and plug it in to "see" precisely which comes first...the chicken or the egg.
> But all things are of God. No need to try to see around or past him, no way to get past grace and truth.
> These are all found in the one true and faithful witness, Jesus Christ, who is both alpha and omega, author and finisher...and who alone, by his free will, has saved...
> 
> Joh_10:18  No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
> 
> 
> and this:
> 
> Mat_26:53  Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
> 
> 
> I see one who is absolutely free...even coulda called upon the Father and cried..."enough of this"
> 
> And by that free will, I am beginning to barely see..."whom the son sets free, is free indeed..."



I agree, it's barely by the skin of my teeth at a moment in time, I said yes, Lord, yes.

I'm sorry if it appears that this appears to be about me. It isn't about me in anyway, I am nothing without Christ, nothing. I don't believe in anyway that I had anything to do with my own salvation in any way at all, no credit on my part. I couldn't save myself, God gifted His Son as my salvation. I just didn't refuse the gift. I loved Jesus from the time I started singing 'Jesus Loves Me' at probably 3 or 4.

I just don't believe that God creates people and He  chooses for them not to believe, and condemns them before the foundation of the world. But that's just me.
Per scripture I believe all people can be saved and not part are chosen by God to be saved and some are chosen to perish.  And I'm not saying God couldn't do that if He wanted to, He could. But I believe in a merciful, gracious God, not a God that chooses who He wants to send to hades.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> Ahhhhh I see, ok for you but no one else, eh?



I honestly do not have a clue what you are talking about here.


----------



## TimB

God in his great wisdom and love created Adam and gave him a choice between obedience and disobedience. Adam chose disobedience and brought sin on the entire race. 

 Man then needed a savior and a second man Adam was sent to earth;



> 1Cr 15:22	 	For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.




Just as when Adam sinned all men became sinners, when Jesus obeyed and made his sacrifice ALL men then had the opportunity to accept his sacrifice and be saved. Jesus did not die for a few select or "elect" he died for ALL. 






> Deu 30:19	I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:




God in his great love and wisdom bestowed on man the capacity to _choose_. That capacity in itself comes from God. Exercising what God gave us does not constitute us being responsible for our own salvation. It is simply a door through which God allows us to walk. 



> Rev 3:20	Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if  any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.




Again as always, from Genesis to Revelation and everywhere in between God gives us the choice to answer his call or ignore it.


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> God in his great wisdom and love created Adam and gave him a choice between obedience and disobedience. Adam chose disobedience and brought sin on the entire race.
> 
> Man then needed a savior and a second man Adam was sent to earth;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just as when Adam sinned all men became sinners, when Jesus obeyed and made his sacrifice ALL men then had the opportunity to accept his sacrifice and be saved. Jesus did not die for a few select or "elect" he died for ALL.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God in his great love and wisdom bestowed on man the capacity to _choose_. That capacity in itself comes from God. Exercising what God gave us does not constitute us being responsible for our own salvation. It is simply a door through which God allows us to walk.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Again as always, from Genesis to Revelation and everywhere in between God gives us the choice to answer his call or ignore it.



Very well put, I agree.


----------



## Ronnie T

Jesus said to Thomas:  “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” 

I don't know why I believe, even though I never saw those scars in His hands!  It would be easy to ask, "why do I believe but Ambush does not".  I certainly don't have the answer.  
I don't know if I believed the first time I heard of Jesus and His good news, or the 100th time I heard.  I know that I didn't earn any of it.  I certainly don't deserve God's grace and goodness even today.  My entire life is held together by the cost of what Christ did for me, even before I was born.

But I'm equally thankful to know that all is not lost for Ambush.  That even until the last moment of life, God will still be wishing for Ambush to believe in the scars that he'll never see.  That God has not refused salvation for Ambush.  I don't know to what extent God might go to bring Ambush into His kingdom.  
Maybe God will send someone just as He sent Philip to the one man in the desert.  Maybe God has already done that.
But God is patient and forebearing and He wishes that all would come to believe in Jesus.
Ambush needs to know that God has not closed the door on him.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Jesus said to Thomas:  “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.”
> 
> I don't know why I believe, even though I never saw those scars in His hands!  It would be easy to ask, "why do I believe but Ambush does not".  I certainly don't have the answer.
> I don't know if I believed the first time I heard of Jesus and His good news, or the 100th time I heard.  I know that I didn't earn any of it.  I certainly don't deserve God's grace and goodness even today.  My entire life is held together by the cost of what Christ did for me, even before I was born.
> 
> But I'm equally thankful to know that all is not lost for Ambush.  That even until the last moment of life, God will still be wishing for Ambush to believe in the scars that he'll never see.  That God has not refused salvation for Ambush.  I don't know to what extent God might go to bring Ambush into His kingdom.
> Maybe God will send someone just as He sent Philip to the one man in the desert.  Maybe God has already done that.
> But God is patient and forebearing and He wishes that all would come to believe in Jesus.
> Ambush needs to know that God has not closed the door on him.



That's a Holy Ghost post right there. Thank you God for letting Jesus do His work thru RonnieT. That is one of the best posts/witness I've ever read on the gospel of Jesus Christ.  You are beside yourself, my brother Ronnie...and have risen to a new level in Him. Your witness is awesome! I wish I could hear you preach, I'd sit right on the front row, and praise our sweet Lord with you!!


----------



## mtnwoman

I wanted to add, not because God made me believe, not because I might be chosen, not only because I  hunger for Christ but because I need Him not because I'm chosen, but because I'm broken.

I don't want to offend any one more than I do...ya know? 

But I love God because I love Jesus because I long to, I want to, I love to, not because He chose me to....but because He first loved me, that's what made me love Him, that's what woke me up, the moment that I believed...

Jesus loved me, because His Father created me. I was given to Him to love, and die for.
I loved Him because He first loved me. Who could refuse to love someone willing to die for you?
God loved me because I loved His son who died for me and all of God's children. I was a child that Jesus loved, He loves all the little children of the world, not just some.

That is very simple I know, but that's what got me to salvation.


----------



## TimB

Ronnie T said:


> But God is patient and forebearing and He wishes that all would come to believe in Jesus.
> Ambush needs to know that God has not closed the door on him.



And that gets right to the heart of the true issue because if Calvinism or Catholicism or Mormonism or any other "ism" deters one  person from seeking and finding Christ that doctrine is, pardon my English, straight out of HeII. 



> Rom 10:13	for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
> 
> Rom 10:14	How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
> 
> Rom 10:15	How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO [fn]BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!"
> 
> Rom 10:16	However, they did not all heed the [fn]good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
> 
> Rom 10:17	So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.



And that is what people like Ambush need to know. The Gospel is preached so that people will hear the word of God, receive faith through that hearing so that they may believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess him with their mouth and be saved.


----------



## mtnwoman

TimB said:


> And that is what people like Ambush need to know. The Gospel is preached so that people will hear the word of God, receive faith through that hearing so that they may believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess him with their mouth and be saved.



Amen!!  We are all chosen....but we all won't believe and repent.
Thank you God for giving your Son Jesus for the sins of all.  And all who believe that and love Christ can receive and be saved. Not a special few....but for all. Yes, Christ's death can save all, it is not limited atonement for a few/some but for all....the power of the resurrection is powerful enough to provide salvation of all, not just a few. God puts a limit on what His Son's death on the cross can do??? Limited atonement, according to who?...God or who? 
Limited Atonement=Limited Power of God and Christ and the Holy Spirit. There is no limit/ limited anything to God.


----------



## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> God puts a limit on what His Son's death on the cross can do???



Yes, according to you. You say it is limited to those, who by their will, accept it. It does no good for those, who by their will, reject it.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Jesus loved me, because His Father created me. I was given to Him to love, and die for.
I loved Him because He first loved me. Who could refuse to love someone willing to die for you?

Mtwomans words. Sometimes they speak election and they dont even know it.


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Jesus loved me, because His Father created me. I was given to Him to love, and die for.
> I loved Him because He first loved me. Who could refuse to love someone willing to die for you?



I had a thought, semi-relevant, but, what do you do think occurs with a person who, as described above, loves God, but has not been elected....an unelected believer?

It seems that election is a random act, and, according to your perspective, nobody is capable of "choosing to accept salvation."  Does this indicate that anybody who believes in God and Jesus has been elected?

Additionally, can a person be unelected, according to your belief system?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Thats just it sir. Loving God is a sign of one being elected. Faith is Gods gift to those whom he has chosen. One can not love God, one can not believe without Gods regenerating power. And its not random but by his good grace.

And no, you can not lose it.


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Thats just it sir. Loving God is a sign of one being elected. Faith is Gods gift to those whom he has chosen. One can not love God, one can not believe without Gods regenerating power. And its not random but by his good grace.
> 
> And no, you can not lose it.



Thanks for the response. 

This being the case, most kids in Sunday school would then be "elected?" Kids typically aqcuire the belief system of their parents until they get older, and start questioning everything (see the AAA forum for many examples).  Since loss of election is not possible, how do we account for the believers who quit believing?


----------



## Israel

mtnwoman said:


> I agree, it's barely by the skin of my teeth at a moment in time, I said yes, Lord, yes.
> 
> I'm sorry if it appears that this appears to be about me. It isn't about me in anyway, I am nothing without Christ, nothing. I don't believe in anyway that I had anything to do with my own salvation in any way at all, no credit on my part. I couldn't save myself, God gifted His Son as my salvation. I just didn't refuse the gift. I loved Jesus from the time I started singing 'Jesus Loves Me' at probably 3 or 4.
> 
> I just don't believe that God creates people and He  chooses for them not to believe, and condemns them before the foundation of the world. But that's just me.
> Per scripture I believe all people can be saved and not part are chosen by God to be saved and some are chosen to perish.  And I'm not saying God couldn't do that if He wanted to, He could. But I believe in a merciful, gracious God, not a God that chooses who He wants to send to hades.



Annie, I meant nothing of what I'd written directed at you...but I am also not unaware that conviction is a wonderful thing.

(Now, Annie...that is all that was specifically to you. You have a wonderfully tender heart, and I fear if I don't make myself plain, you may feel wrongly singled out...when you have been rightly singled out)

As to conviction...
I must include myself...for I believe I haven't seen or heard anything from the Lord that isn't always for me...but in that I have also heard this..."Israel, if you can accept you are just a common man, and not unlike any other... I  can talk to you...about you."
yes, there is a part of each of us that needs to die...that part that "needs" to feel special...because it has not yet seen just how special "man" is. 

And only in admitting our common nature, do we begin to see...

for "stand not so close to me, I am holier than thou" is the confession of the soul that sees nothing except its own need. Yet is completely deceived by it, and sees not need at all, but a false sufficiency.

Coming clean about weakness and need is only a gift of grace...the carnal man is loathe to turn belly up (except to other men, to manipulate them), 

but my dogs trust me for I love them, and they have learned I do...

(Want a treat? No...not my dogs...you...look up the word proskuneo...the word for worship in what we call the "New Testament"...)


So, this is what I see about men...all men. If we can figure out how something works...it gives us a measure of comfort, for we believe then we have a control of sorts. 


If not of the very events...we feel we can at least brace ourselves emotionally for outcomes. (In a world where a misstep or vulnerability can mean catastrophe...setting ducks in a row is taken as a wise use of time.)

But Jesus makes clay pigeons out of our ducks.


But God sees our need for control...and although he never indulges it, he likewise is merciful. So, while we labor under the delusion caused by self neediness, we can only and always see "our" side of what comes to us from the Lord. 

Therefore:

"Whosoever will"...we hear and thunder about what we think that means.


And "No man cometh to me except"...we hear...and likewise do the same.

"Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."

"For God so loved the world..."

"You are saved by grace through faith..."

And he said to the woman, Your faith has saved you; go in peace.







All the time trying to control by our sense "how it must work"

But...when we are finally brought to see the futility and misdirection we have embraced (because of our own need to have things figured out)...we begin to see the one who says these things... is the one we have always been directed to...and it is not "ourselves"...no matter how that self may say it is now valuable because it is "getting knowledge". The self is always willing to have us forsake the cross 

"just give me a breather...ok"?

But the cross is where the smart self, bad self, good self, scared self, proud self, timid self, half hearted self, dumb self, zealous self is assigned. If we wanna die all we gotta do is listen to it.


But...

When we begin to glimpse the one through whom "ALL things are possible" 

we may begin to see the vanity of 

"it works this way, no it works that way...no this came first...no this did..."

Scripture says "everything that hangs on a tree is a curse"



Deuteronomy 21:23 you must not leave his body on the tree overnight. Be sure to bury him that same day, because anyone who is hung on a tree_ is under God's curse. _You must not desecrate the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.

We preach "the one who hung on the tree is Lord!"

See...even being a "bible scholar" can be an impediment...as the generations of Jews who believe Deuteronomy is "more valid" because it was written first...and therefore say "we will not, we cannot...believe..."
But they forget as we all have...we condemn ourselves with our own words. Cannot the God who "you say" got you to believe deuteronomy (if you have faith)...also bring you to believe whatever he cares to? Or will you prove you have no faith in the God for whom all things are possible...even by the very words you use to justify your faith?

Did God tell Abraham to sacrifice Isaac?

(Answer according to truth.)


Then was your father Abraham wrong to obey the angel? 


Oh...you say "well the angel was from the Lord..." seems faith can take you some places that at first that faith does not seem to lead.

Is it "kill the kid till I say don't kill the kid"?


Then it can just as simply be  "It's a cursed thing till I say it's not a cursed thing...and raise him to my own right hand."


b..b...b....b....b...but...LORD?!!!

Yep. Unless you're of that faith you claim of that "father" Abraham...who was led about long before anything was written down...which was to bring you to me...and not to bring you to the place where you now have a way of figuring me out...

So it is.



Can God do what he wants?

Are all things possible to him?

The question only remains to each of us "who do you say that I am"...



We just can't think the "right" answer ever implies this:


You may now decide what and how I shall do what I shall do.


I and Peter have taken that trip, as have, I am sure...many others...

God will be for each of us precisely what we want.

Since I thought being right was being "like God"...he said OK...I will let you meet the God of your own rightness...but it also means you will have to learn what it means to be "right" about the kind of man you really are...OK?...sure you wanna see this?"

Yes Lord...but you're mistaken Jesus (why don't you know as much as me...why doesn't anyone?)...everyone else will forsake you...but not me..."

OK, Peter...your ticket's been validated...pack a lot of kleenex. And don't worry...I've packed a little map to show you the way back...


----------



## gordon 2

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for the response.
> 
> This being the case, most kids in Sunday school would then be "elected?" Kids typically aqcuire the belief system of their parents until they get older, and start questioning everything (see the AAA forum for many examples).  Since loss of election is not possible, how do we account for the believers who quit believing?



AH HA! Though this question is not directed at me, I have noticed this tread is wonderfully peppered with shotgun replies...here is the full choke of mine.

What accounts for believers who quit?

One would like to say they ( as individuals) never believed to begin with... but this is not a simple enough answer. The people who raised them did not believe. Now that is the simple answer.

The people who raised them (the greater community of saints) lived in a world which was long before Jesus. And many still live in that world, where God is still waging war on the Gods of sinners everywhere. These "believers"are quite happy to exterminate other Gods even at the cost of the extermination other peoples. 

Not unlike the hebrews caving  in all the Gods of the Cannanites, it is not ambigious to these christian believers that todays cannanites be collateral damage.

We speak with forked tongues...from an objective perspective. Our manifest destinies are from the spirit of our people and not from the Holy Spirit we claim as the bounty of the elect and christianity which we claim to be parties of.

WE are Hypocrites... We are a hard sect to believe in and our Gods to the objective minded must seem not different that the fictions of backwards and primitive cultures.

We are cats chasing our tails and are quite entertained by it. Jesus come soon.


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## mtnwoman

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, according to you. You say it is limited to those, who by their will, accept it. It does no good for those, who by their will, reject it.



And also according to you, it is limited to those who are chosen and does no good to those who are not chosen.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> And also according to you, it is limited to those who are chosen and does no good to those who are not chosen.



That is correct.


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## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> That is correct.



Wow.
It's amazing that doctrinal error can be taught, believed, and come to this point in a person or groups belief system.
Totally unscriptural, totally ignores the very essence of the coming of Jesus Christ and His gospel into the world.
Wow wow wow.  And I'll leave you to your heresy.


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## common man

It's also amazing to believe in a Gospel which did not save one single human being because it first has to activated by the sinner.


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## Ronnie T

Acts 2:37 37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brethren, what shall we do?” 38 Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 

47 ................And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

Salvation is for all who hear and accept......... but that salvation is unmistakenly the gift of God and it is God who appoints into His kingdom.


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## Ronnie T

Acts 11:13–14 (NKJV)
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, ‘Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter, 14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.’


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## gemcgrew

You say that "Jesus died on the cross to save everyone in the world". Not so. If Christ had suffered the penalty of God's holy law for everyone, everyone would be saved. Our Lord said that he laid down his life for his sheep, and then turned to the Pharisees and said, "Ye are not of my sheep" (John 10:26). Christ did not die to save all the people of the world. He died to redeem, and actually did redeem, all of God's elect, the objects of his love.

Man by his own free will has the power either to let Christ save him or to resist the Lord's saving grace? No! 

Can the clay resist the potter's will? No!

Can man resist the power of God? No!

Man's will is not free. It is bound by his own evil heart and nature. Left to himself, he will not and cannot come to Christ. Man's will, like all other things, is under the power and dominion of the Son of God.


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## gemcgrew

common man said:


> It's also amazing to believe in a Gospel which did not save one single human being because it first has to activated by the sinner.



It makes man his own savior. If Christ atoned for the sins of all of mankind, yet God looks to man for something more.


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## Israel

Brothers...I know the sovereignty of God is worth defending, by word and perhaps even more.
I also know the extravagant grace of God in Christ Jesus is not to be impugned.
And I believe these are not either/or.
What Jesus said to some of the pharisees he had every right to...for he came both _knowing and speaking_ precisely how those words would be sealed...in his own blood.

Maybe we can speak words to each other that will cost us our lives...too?

Let's not forget the last few words he spoke while blood still coursed through his veins.
Then maybe we can hear some more?
I can only speak for myself, but I need to appear where all my faults are laid upon my own ignorance...for willfulness has had its way in me far too long.


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## hummerpoo

It appears that calls for peace, based on varied criterion, have fallen upon ears that have chosen to not hear.....and upon ears that have been chosen to not hear.


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## TimB

gemcgrew said:


> You say that "Jesus died on the cross to save everyone in the world".



Actually that was not one of us saying that it was the Bible;



> Jhn 3:17	 	For God sent not his Son into the *world* to condemn the world; but that *the world* through him might be saved.





> Strong's;  "World" G2889 - kosmos
> the world, the universe,
> 
> the circle of the earth, the earth
> 
> the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family
> 
> the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ






> Not so.



So, the Bible is wrong then? 



> If Christ had suffered the penalty of God's holy law for everyone, everyone would be saved.



Um, no they wouldn't because the salvation is dependent on "whosoever" will receive it. 

 Jhn 3:16	 	For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that *whosoever believeth* in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Salvation is for those that  believe. 


And now lets look at  the next verse again;

 Jhn 3:17	 	For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him *might* be saved.


 "Might" be saved not "would" be saved. Christ died that we MIGHT be saved. He made it a possibility not a CERTAINTY.


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## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> This being the case, most kids in Sunday school would then be "elected?"



Not sure of your question but just because one goes to Sunday school or church does not make them elect.




JB0704 said:


> Kids typically aqcuire the belief system of their parents until they get older, and start questioning everything (see the AAA forum for many examples).  Since loss of election is not possible, how do we account for the believers who quit believing?



Tares? (Matthew 13:24-30)


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## CollinsCraft77

Actually from my Strongs Greek/Hebrew Bible

kosmos - from the base of komizo - orderly arrangement (by implication) the world - in a wide or narrow sense. Can include the inhabitants there of

So you see, the word is literally translated orderly arrangement. 

For God so loved the orderly arrangement........

Or as it says the whole world OR world in a narrow sense.

The word it is derived from komizo is to provide for.

Hmmmm


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## gordon 2

hummerpoo said:


> It appears that calls for peace, based on varied criterion, have fallen upon ears that have chosen to not hear.....and upon ears that have been chosen to not hear.



Interesting. Paul calls the elect children I believe. Don't children have a bedtime anymore?


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## gemcgrew

TimB said:


> Actually that was not one of us saying that it was the Bible;



 I understand that is how you see it.



TimB said:


> So, the Bible is wrong then?



No  



TimB said:


> Um, no they wouldn't because the salvation is dependent on "whosoever" will receive it.



Again, I understand that you believe that man, by something he does, gives efficacy to the work of Christ. 




TimB said:


> Salvation is for those that  believe.



Agree



TimB said:


> "Might" be saved not "would" be saved. Christ died that we MIGHT be saved. He made it a possibility not a CERTAINTY.



Again, I understand that you think Christ actually secured salvation for nobody, but man by something he does, secures it.


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## common man

"as MANY as the Lord our God will call to Himself.” 

Ya'll are quoting so much scripture you are starting to sound like Calvinists.


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## G5BONECRUSHER

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Actually from my Strongs Greek/Hebrew Bible
> 
> kosmos - from the base of komizo - orderly arrangement (by implication) the world - in a wide or narrow sense. Can include the inhabitants there of
> 
> So you see, the word is literally translated orderly arrangement.
> 
> For God so loved the orderly arrangement........
> 
> Or as it says the whole world OR world in a narrow sense.
> 
> The word it is derived from komizo is to provide for.
> 
> Hmmmm



To correctly divide the word of truth one must draw out the truth that naturally arises from scripture in light of:
1)The Character of God. (That is revealed by him in his word)
2)The example of the Living Word, Jesus Christ.
3)The original texts.	
4)The authors intended audience
5)The immediate and broader context in which it was written.
6)The genre in which it was written.
7)The guidance of the Holy Spirit.


You are choosing a *possible* definition of the word based on an incorrect interpretation of Romans 9, with the verses and chapters surrounding it. and is in direct contrast to the Life of Jesus Christ & Character of God himself. Rather than the definition that is in context with the rest of the Bible as a whole, When there are multiple other uses of the word that naturally agree with all of the above.


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## CollinsCraft77

Actually i think it flows well with the rest of the Bible


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## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Again, I understand that you believe that man, by something he does, gives efficacy to the work of Christ.



God offers man the gift of salvation.  Man can accept or reject that gift.  For fifteen centuries, that was the unquestioned teaching of the church.


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## whome

centerpin fan said:


> God offers man the gift of salvation.  Man can accept or reject that gift.  For fifteen centuries, that was the unquestioned teaching of the church.



x's 2

It shouldn't be that hard to understand.


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## CollinsCraft77

On what basis do you base this on? Which church believed this?


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