# Paul's struggle with the old and the new?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

I like Paul. I was once put off by him. I once saw his journey as too wishy washy. I even tried to justify and find something that would lead me to believe that he wasn't an apostle. 
I mean, how could one so insecure be a prophet? How could he speak for God one minute and then be a non-secure human man the next?

Anyway, I think it was because of his struggle with the Old and the New. He was given the task from God to provide the transition.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

The Transition? Something was there. A mystery/secret given to Paul directly from God to present to man.

I do like and appreciate God using one human to do this task vs using a council of men. Just seems less confusing that way.

So here is a man given this chore. Imagine the confusion between flesh and spirit? The Old and New?

A human trying to figure out what to say and think? Should I say what I think or what God thinks? What about my fellow Jews? The Gentiles? The mystery/secret?
God's plan? Jesus and the Cross?
All of that plus the Old and the New.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

Maybe Romans 7 is a good place to start. Paul's own struggle. 

Transitions? Maybe Romans 14. 

Something was changing when Paul was tasked with delivering the gospel. He had to present the Old with the New.

I sure would have hated to be tasked with Paul's mission.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

Obedience?

Paul has now got to show that through these changes or transitions, obedience to God has to prevail. 
Even with the washing. The LOVE. The Cross. The sacrifice. The price paid. The slate wiped clean.

Even through all of that Paul still has to explain some type of obedience to God.

Exactly what that is and how we view that with the Cross is where some questions arise. 

Maybe that is the balance. What that obedience to God means vs the Law. I'm sure that concept was another one of Paul's struggles.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2019)

A revelation was given to Paul to explain a change within the realm of time.
Even though a prophet, he was still a man. Flesh and spirit, as are we all.

Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.   13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2019)

This video will explain what was going on in Paul's head.   Paul had learned how the Lost Sheep could come back into covenant with God.       You can, too.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 5, 2019)

I can't say that I ever saw it this way? But I can see your point. I think he was using himself as an example, but likely did not struggle with fleshly desires. His struggle was not the old and the new, but rather the struggle with Peter, who was mixing the law and grace. Yet Peter was more respected so it was a task to over rule Peter. f I personally don't believe the story in Acts where he shaved his head based on a vow. Does not make since that he would take a vow, yet say, let your yes be yes and your no be no. Acts has many contradictions, but yet Luke never claimed to be inspired. He simply said he had investigated these things


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> I can't say that I ever saw it this way? But I can see your point. I think he was using himself as an example, but likely did not struggle with fleshly desires. His struggle was not the old and the new, but rather the struggle with Peter, who was mixing the law and grace. Yet Peter was more respected so it was a task to over rule Peter. f I personally don't believe the story in Acts where he shaved his head based on a vow. Does not make since that he would take a vow, yet say, let your yes be yes and your no be no. Acts has many contradictions, but yet Luke never claimed to be inspired. He simply said he had investigated these things



Paul took a Nazarite vow, it’s was in the Law. Preachers don’t teach anything in the OT so that’s why christians don’t know these things    Curious to know what other contradictions you believe are in Acts?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 5, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Paul took a Nazarite vow, it’s was in the Law. Preachers don’t teach anything in the OT so that’s why christians don’t know these things    Curious to know what other contradictions you believe are in Acts?


Several, I'll post tomorrow


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 6, 2019)

Busy day today, but I'll start with this one... In Acts it says Paul went to Jerusalem, acts 9,  but in Galatians, Pauls words, 1;22, he said he was unknown to Jerusalem


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## Israel (Feb 7, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I like Paul. I was once put off by him. I once saw his journey as too wishy washy. I even tried to justify and find something that would lead me to believe that he wasn't an apostle.
> I mean, how could one so insecure be a prophet? How could he speak for God one minute and then be a non-secure human man the next?
> 
> Anyway, I think it was because of his struggle with the Old and the New. He was given the task from God to provide the transition.



Yeah, Paul was inserted into that "struggle" and God has graciously allowed for its viewing to be _played out_ in a man so that even what may find itself as the weakest can find hope.

But for this very reason I was shown mercy, so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display His perfect patience as an example to those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Any gathering of apostles for the Yearbook photo that refuse to be joined under _their own_ banner as this:

Voted Least Likely to Succeed

should be shunned.

"Son if you think you ever gunna create for yourself a place better than being right for the wrong reasons, or wrong for the right reasons, you gunna be bitterly disappointed." 
"Big" John Timmons to John Jr. "Partners at the Great Divide"


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Busy day today, but I'll start with this one... In Acts it says Paul went to Jerusalem, acts 9,  but in Galatians, Pauls words, 1;22, he said he was unknown to Jerusalem



Hmmm   KJV reads that "he was unknown by face unto the churches ... "   Personally, I think it's a stretch to say that that would mean he had never been to Jerusalem....especially since he was a Pharisee and a "Hebrew of Hebrews".    Wouldn't a 'Hebrew of Hebrews', sometime in his life, want to go to Jerusalem for the feasts, at least?   lol   Didn't Acts also say that he was present at Stephen's stoning?   

All Jews were to present themselves before the Lord 3 times a year...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 7, 2019)

Maybe Paul is saying in Galatians 1, they didn't know his ministry. He may have went to Jerusalem as Saul but not as the preacher, Paul.

Paul was preaching elsewhere so the churches in Jerusalem had only heard of his "preaching the faith" through reports. Maybe


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

I'm sure one of the greatest Pharisees of all time, who studied under Gamaliel, would have visited the Temple sometime in his lifetime.   lol      This is fun.   What's the next Acts-contradiction?


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## Israel (Feb 7, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe Paul is saying in Galatians 1, they didn't know his ministry. He may have went to Jerusalem as Saul but not as the preacher, Paul.
> 
> Paul was preaching elsewhere so the churches in Jerusalem had only heard of his "preaching the faith" through reports. Maybe


 
I see it that way, also. Don't know that he much evangelized there where

(And when James, Cephas, and John) who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we _should go_ unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.


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## Israel (Feb 7, 2019)

We do know this however:

And when he was come unto us, he took Paul's girdle, and bound his own hands and feet, and said, Thus saith the Holy Ghost, So shall the Jews at Jerusalem bind the man that owneth this girdle, and shall deliver _him _into the hands of the Gentiles. And when we heard these things, both we, and they of that place, besought him not to go up to Jerusalem. Then Paul answered, What mean ye to weep and to break mine heart? for I am ready not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus. And when he would not be persuaded, we ceased, saying, The will of the Lord be done. 

Saul probably enjoyed a somewhat benign ignoring...Paul...not so much.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

OK, so I should have looked before I posted....i'm to rusty to shoot from the hip. It's not that Paul had not been to Jerusalem.... I was remembering incorrectly.... It is Luke's version of his time after conversion, specifically when he met Peter. Luke implys he met Peter but Paul says his conversion is from God, not influenced by disciples, that he did not go see the apostles, that he went to see Peter after 3 years....


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

Yea, I'm rusty... The vow I was trying to recall..Acts 21;23. Read the adjoing context. There is no way that Paul would have taken a vow, to show that he was not teaching contrary to the law, example, , vs 21, telling them not to be circumcised. Paul would have never done this. He did preach that you did not need to be circumcised. Paul did not mix law and grace. Did not happen


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Yea, I'm rusty... The vow I was trying to recall..Acts 21;23. Read the adjoing context. There is no way that Paul would have taken a vow, to show that he was not teaching contrary to the law, example, , vs 21, telling them not to be circumcised. Paul would have never done this. He did preach that you did not need to be circumcised. Paul did not mix law and grace. Did not happen



and then in Acts 16 Paul circumcises Timothy       Paul taught (and this may be what you've implied) that circumcision was NOT NECESSARY for salvation, but was something you did ONLY AFTER your heart was circumcised.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Yea, I'm rusty... The vow I was trying to recall..Acts 21;23. Read the adjoing context. There is no way that Paul would have taken a vow, to show that he was not teaching contrary to the law, example, , vs 21, telling them not to be circumcised. Paul would have never done this. He did preach that you did not need to be circumcised. Paul did not mix law and grace. Did not happen



I'm confused about what you're saying.   Are you saying that Paul would never have taken a Nazarite vow, a vow of separation to God as detailed in Numbers 6?   This Nazarite vow - which obviously the men James referred to had taken - were to shave their heads and offer A SACRIFICE (which Paul was paying for)   I know some think that sacrifices are ALL totally fulfilled in Christ, but there were other sacrifices unrelated to Jesus' death, like this one.    30 years after Jesus' ascension Paul is paying for this vow animal sacrifice.     Food for thought...


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'm confused about what you're saying.   Are you saying that Paul would never have taken a Nazarite vow, a vow of separation to God as detailed in Numbers 6?   This Nazarite vow - which obviously the men James referred to had taken - were to shave their heads and offer A SACRIFICE (which Paul was paying for)   I know some think that sacrifices are ALL totally fulfilled in Christ, but there were other sacrifices unrelated to Jesus' death, like this one.    30 years after Jesus' ascension Paul is paying for this vow animal sacrifice.     Food for thought...


What I am saying is that Paul was determined to teach that the law was no longer required. Yet, we see where the disciples were upset that he did so, and wanted him to take a vow to show there was no truth in this. Acts said he did so. Can't believe he would have done that. Whether it was a Nazerite vow or other is beside the point.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

He even got so frustrated with this that he said he wished they would go all the way and emasculate themselves. 
1Now, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those who are agitating you, I wish they would proceed to emasculate themselves! 
So we have a contradiction. Did Paul take a vow to show he did or did not teach circumcision. I take Paul's own words over Luke's second + hand


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

Acts;
20 When they heard this, they praised God. Then they said to Paul: “You see, brother, how many thousands of Jews have believed, and all of them are zealous for the law. 21 They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses,telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. 22 What shall we do? They will certainly hear that you have come, 23 so do what we tell you. There are four men with us who have made a vow. 24 Take these men, join in their purification rites and pay their expenses, so that they can have their heads shaved.* Then everyone will know there is no truth in these reports about you, *but that you yourself are living in obedience to the law.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

We know Paul didn't believe that circumcision was NECESSARY for salvation...he made that clear in Acts 15....but we know he believed in circumcision as a sign of a circumcised heart because in the VERY NEXT chapter, Acts 16, Paul circumcises Timothy.   Paul would not have circumcised Timothy unless he believed it was still a covenant sign...


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> What I am saying is that Paul was determined to teach that the law was no longer required. Yet, we see where the disciples were upset that he did so, and wanted him to take a vow to show there was no truth in this. Acts said he did so. Can't believe he would have done that. Whether it was a Nazerite vow or other is beside the point.



Also, I think you are misreading Acts 21.    James wanted Paul to show the Jews that he was still "walking orderly" by cleansing himself with those men and paying for the animal sacrifice.   James didn't ask Paul to take a vow....only to pay for those who had.    The vow that was to be taken required long periods of time...time enough for your hair to grow out.   The hair would be shaved at the end of the vow.    Anyway, saying that there's no way Paul would have done any of this is an argument from silence.    The context of Acts 21 shows that whatever James suggested that he do to show the Jews he still walked in the Law, he did.   verse 26 says that right after James suggested it, that Paul took those men.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

Whether Paul did anything like shave his head, pay, etc.... is beside the point. Did he agree to take part in custom to show that customs are required? Did Paul want to be one of the gang so much that he let peer pressure push him into participating in a manipulated illusion that contradicted his beliefs and teaching?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

The bulk of Paul's teaching and writings show his constant fight with the law trying to creep into grace. There is no grace if there is any law. It can't be 50/50, or 10/90. It's 100% grace


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Whether Paul did anything like shave his head, pay, etc.... is beside the point. Did he agree to take part in custom to show that customs are required? Did Paul want to be one of the gang so much that he let peer pressure push him into participating in a manipulated illusion that contradicted his beliefs and teaching?



Then why did he take the men, when James suggested he take them?   Can anyone read Acts 21 and see anything but that Paul was showing the Jews that he, too, obeyed the Law?    Why, in your opinion, did Paul circumcise Timothy?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Then why did he take the men, when James suggested he take them?   Can anyone read Acts 21 and see anything but that Paul was showing the Jews that he, too, obeyed the Law?    Why, in your opinion, did Paul circumcise Timothy?





BANDERSNATCH said:


> Then why did he take the men, when James suggested he take them?   Can anyone read Acts 21 and see anything but that Paul was showing the Jews that he, too, obeyed the Law?    Why, in your opinion, did Paul circumcise Timothy?


Again, your assuming Acts as factual, I am not. That's my whole point. Pauls words or Lukes words about Paul


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2019)

The writer of Luke was not whom we think he was. And he never claimed to be. He only said that he had investigated these things. He was not an eyewitness. So therefore as one might expect, embellishments occur. Only bad thing is that much of Lukes writing is not from investigation but rather plagiarizing from Mark and an unknown source named Q. It's easily seen in his writing called "editorial fatigue". He should have just gave over his copy of Mark instead of passing it off as his work. And Matthew did the same.


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## Israel (Feb 8, 2019)

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible.  To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.  To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law.  To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some. I do all this for the sake of the gospel, that I may share in its blessings. 

Were you or I to write this in any adversarial setting, how much might come under a scrutiny to the end of accusation?

As in  "Hey buddy...YOU...don't have the right to decide or make any attempt to present yourself in any certain way in differing situations, or among differing folks...that's called hypocrisy!"

Or "Hey buddy...YOU...can't _and don't_ 'save anyone' "

Or...look at that last line..."Hey buddy, I suspected you were very much self engaged in what all this provides _for you_, so all this talk about being unselfish and living for another is just so much baloney...you obviously are interested in what _you _get _out of it_".

I don't doubt I have caused much eye strain, been rightly held liable for the crime of boredom and being more tedious than aunt Bertha explaining why the Hummels aren't toys and you can't play with them when you visit. Or seeking to be clever in prose. And ending up rather...prosaic. 

And _any hint _anyone has ever had to a self interest, I won't now attempt to _gaslight_...you been right all along. (if you don't know what gaslighting is as a rather frequently applied term in the age of LOL and _virtue signaling..._the internet stands ready to serve.)

I'm more slippery than an eel when it comes to self justification.

I think I'm just a man seeking to make heads and tails out of stuff that's just so plainly beyond my own comprehension. And honestly the scriptures seem to raise an equal number of questions in that particular moment I believe I have found an answer to any particular one.

Someone, it appears, not only _wanted me to be_, but is also (and no less) keeping me in being. There are lots of presumptions/assumptions I have made to this plainly obvious (to me) thing. There is no comfort to be found in any presumption about being _kept in being. _The moment I assume it speaks anything...as in..."I got _through that, _and am still here...therefore I must occupy some place of approval..." Boy! I can find another thing...being kept...no less...

The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve (read keep) the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: 

And no less, if in any moment I try to "tip" the scales to myself to escape _that fearful knowing_, again, as in "but I am _the_ righteous I believe in Jesus Christ" or worse "then look at how many temptations I have resisted!" I am pressed to see the how many times I have acted unfaithfully to the One in whom I say I believe...and all the many temptations...I _have fallen _to. Even after claiming to "know Him". 

No, if I look to the writings for justification...it's just a wash...for I'll so easily insert myself into whatever is most convenient to myself...and find there...the inescapable knowing...what is written can just as easily be turned to my condemnation. To me it then becomes obvious...if there be any hope at all, it cannot even be in things most seemingly noble and right...(and exalted as such by so many appearing compatriots), as_ the writings._

I well understand how easily such an exposition as above can be turned to "this man is preaching no usefulness is found in the scripture" And, that would be a lie. Rather, they are of no use to me as _source of salvation. O!_ But they testify to such a thing, but no less testify to a fearful condemnation. And to believe in either is not possible unless believing...in both. Trying to "tip the scales" so to speak, from either desire or dread terror, for me, has become, as said, a wash. A complete (if one can receive this description) zero sum game.

But when terror is known...this notion of "game", and any disposition toward having appeared so, is crushed under the awful and terrible weight of a revelation (may I say it is so...a revelation?) of an inexpressible "highness of stake" that is at hand. Any "gaming" I have been disposed to seeing and deported myself in accord to, is made so clearly source of condemnation...that only one plea, perhaps the only one true thing I am able to ever have, or ever have been formed to utter, comes.
It is not "reasoned to", it is not considered as in "this would be a good thing to say" nor has anything of "my reason" I could assign to it...it's simply the _only thing_ that there can be said..."Lord, save me!" It's all and only what I am able to speak, find, or know.

Now, I get (is that a presumption?) that at this moment of sucking down a coffee, on a device I can neither explain nor create, in a home made warm by some remarkable manner of things I am able to call voltage and amperage (that, by my naming of them once implied an understanding of them...but is now revealed as truly complete mystery...despite their naming) leaves me no less having to admit that simply knowing of a name, or assigning of one...or_ using one_, can somehow be revealed as truly not knowing what is in it...at all. And that names, and naming of things, are more often employed to a self serving comfort of illusion of holding within that assignation of naming, explanation. But electron...no more _explains_ electron, no matter how many other names of processes, observations, _words used_ to the most (seeming) _intelligent description_ can capture.

Something inescapable is happening, no matter how it is sought to be captured by words to describe. It is as ineffable as it is inexplicable.
But, I cannot deny I "think" I may be learning my name.

It is "thing that needs to be saved". And that is all, and also, enough for me now. To not say otherwise, I am persuaded, is born of such self serving as alone is revealed to be safe... a _thing_ needs its soul saved.

The tinman said: "Now I know I have a heart because I can feel it breaking"

Perhaps in the same way the soul is revealed...beyond concept, or idea.
And also beyond explanation.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 8, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Again, your assuming Acts as factual, I am not. That's my whole point. Pauls words or Lukes words about Paul



Ah!   Now I understand where you're coming from.    You're saying that nothing in Acts should be used as evidence.    Sorry.....I misunderstood your arguments.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 8, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Ah!   Now I understand where you're coming from.    You're saying that nothing in Acts should be used as evidence.    Sorry.....I misunderstood your arguments.


Just saying that I put Paul's words over Lukes in regards to Paul's life. However, I do consider Luke's writings as second or third hand, maybe more, so I expect his story to not be 100% accurate. But likely, close


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 8, 2019)

I know there are numerous references (many extra-biblical) that says Luke was, indeed, Paul's companion.    Do you not believe that they were traveling buddies?   No offense intended, but many of your comments here I'd expect to find in the AAA forum.   lol     I've never heard a Christian express doubts about the Gospel of Luke and/or Acts like you have done.

Almost sounds like you're calling Luke an outright liar...


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 8, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I know there are numerous references (many extra-biblical) that says Luke was, indeed, Paul's companion.    Do you not believe that they were traveling buddies?   No offense intended, but many of your comments here I'd expect to find in the AAA forum.   lol     I've never heard a Christian express doubts about the Gospel of Luke and/or Acts like you have done.
> 
> Almost sounds like you're calling Luke an outright liar...


I used to think that.... but later changed my mind. He never claimed anything other than having investigated these things. It's modern day Christianity that tries to force him into being an eyewitness. He never claimed this. I don't believe he was Paul's companion. If he had of been, then he would have had such deep pockets to draw from, of stories, regarding Paul, and the context of Christianity. He would have never said, "i have investigated these things". People want to make Luke an eyewitness. But it's just not so. Rather than have amazing stories, he resorted to copying from Mark. The bible is what it is. It does not need Luke to be an eyewitness.The good news still prevails without it. Traditional assumptions  are hard to break.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 8, 2019)

Luke having copied from Mark is fact, not a theory


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 9, 2019)

Luke admits, at the beginning of his gospel, that others had written their accounts of the life of Christ and that he, too, 'having perfect understanding" wrote his own account.   No doubt he used all the writings of the Apostles - especially Paul -  and Mark, to pen his gospel.    Speaking of Luke, one renowned historian (i forget who) called Luke, "an historian of the first rank!" and trusted the historical evidence Luke provides as fact (eg Luke 3:1) since archaeology has over and over confirmed what he wrote .   Mark didn't have these dates so, "Thank you, Luke!"

Paul mentions in two of his letters (Collosians and II Timothy) that Luke was with him.   Guess we need to throw out the Pauline epistles too!


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Luke admits, at the beginning of his gospel, that others had written their accounts of the life of Christ and that he, too, 'having perfect understanding" wrote his own account.   No doubt he used all the writings of the Apostles - especially Paul -  and Mark, to pen his gospel.    Speaking of Luke, one renowned historian (i forget who) called Luke, "an historian of the first rank!" and trusted the historical evidence Luke provides as fact (eg Luke 3:1) since archaeology has over and over confirmed what he wrote .   Mark didn't have these dates so, "Thank you, Luke!"
> 
> Paul mentions in two of his letters (Collosians and II Timothy) that Luke was with him.   Guess we need to throw out the Pauline epistles too!


Luke 1, Many have undertaken to compose an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, *2*just as they were handed down to us by the initial eyewitnesses and servants of the word. *3*Therefore, having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, *4*so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught. ,

 Just because Paul mentions Luke..... Does not make the writer of the book of Luke as Luke. I don't need it to be Luke. It could have been anybody for all I would care. I'm not sure why the need is there to try to apply a known person as the writer??? Your bible version... there is zero... zero, in the greek to justify "having perfect understanding".  The word is more of "following", not in the sense that a box car follows the engine  on a train, but rather that someone follow as we understand facebook or instagram. Again, why would your bible translator manipulate a clearly wrong wording in order to push this idea of Luke..... Just simply look at the wording... above..  Many have undertaken to write..Many, hmmmm, this alone dates this writing. Just as they were handed down.... hmmmm, implys second hand or more..... initial eyewitnesses..... Hmmmm, Paul was not an eyewitness of the days of Jesus. He was later. Is not Paul supposed to be Lukes source, and is not Luke writing about the birth and life of Jesus?  Luke never claims to be Luke, only that he had investigated these things.... This implys that "he need investigate". Meaning, he did not know first hand any of what he was saying. However.... Luke crosses the line.... When he made up Mary's song. He wrote of things, specifics of Mary staying with Martha, her song, as if she had wrote it down for him.... that goes beyond investigation. He either lied.... or was being carried by the Spirit as to what to write. Hmmmm, why then would he have editorial fatigue in his writings. The Spirit would not have said, give me a break for a minute, just copy from here while I drink coffee. If he was carried by the Spirit, he would have never said that he "investigated".  Same for Matthew.... surely you don't think the appostle Matthew wrote the book of Matthew. Just so you know though, I believe that John wrote John, the middle section anyway.... LOL, I'm sure you did not realize that there are 2 beginnings and 2 endings, to John. Being a real bible student requires that you know whats in the book


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## tell sackett (Feb 15, 2019)

Have mercy


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2019)

I should clarify that "it could have been Luke who wrote Luke... We just don't know. If we go with probability... it was probably him, unlike Matthew who was much later than a 1st hand disciple. We can predict the timing of the writing, based on the ending. It was written, or completed about the time Paul was in house arrest. Because it goes no further to include his prison sentence spoken of in the end of 2 Timothy. If it was Luke, I wish he had written an Acts 2, because considering he was then focused on Paul, we have no ending to Paul's story. It's possible that he did write more about Paul's prison and death.... and it possibly was lost. Clearly the writer focused on Paul after midway, investigation of Luke, and half of Acts, 1st hand of the ending of Acts. Still does not prove it was Luke. Just as 1 comment of Luke as the "beloved physician" does not make Luke into a Doctor.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2019)

Matthew is much easier. We have lingo that we use. Such as "riding a wave, a big wave". Is this 1 wave... or 2. Matthew being a non eyewitness, has Jesus riding in straddling 2 donkeys. "on a donkey, on a foal of a donkey", which he wrote as 2 donkeys. Clearly not an eyewitness, nor someone whom understood the lingo of that time. And he too had editorial fatigue in his writing as Luke did. Thus he was not full of info, but rather resorted to sources for his info. Does not matter to me. I don't need it to be Matthew a disciple of Jesus. It was someone just like Luke who felt inclined to record what he saw as valuable information. Either he was highly devoted to sharing the gospel..... or said to himself, mercy, the stories keep changing and getting more and more embellished, or people keep trying to  change the narrative....... I had better write this down before it starts evolving into something else. And it's a good thing he did or people might still be praying to Mary. We use these books to validate which beliefs are clearly not from antiquity.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2019)

The entire point here is not who wrote what. The point was over Paul's struggle. Was it fleshly desires.... or was it another struggle seen in the context of his writings. So sorry I derailed the thread when I mentioned that I did not think he actually meant literally that he struggles with fleshly desires. I think he meant it as trying to be relate-able  to people. When he says, I don't do what I want and I do do what I don't want to, the struggle, I assume he is referring to things we would not consider sins. Possibly.... I should encourage these people... but yet, I'm tired and would like to get some rest. I just don't think his struggle was with sin, as we know it. He would have no credibility as a God fearing preacher if so. But I did mention the overwhelming context in the NT of how he fought, the struggle to keep the law from trying to merge with Christianity. The gospel depends on it. The law was given until grace appeared. We died to the law to live a new life, not goverened by traditions or laws, but by the spirit he gave us. The new covenant. Not parts of the new and old, but the new covenant. If you could obtain righteousness from the law.... then Christ died for nothing. No one will enter the gates of heaven with a mindset of look at the discipline I displayed, what a good example am I. No, not one. Only those whom have torn down their man made temples for God to dwell in that they so admire, and consider them rubbish and can say as Paul, did, By the grace of God, I am what I am..... Steven understood. God does not live in houses made by man. Paul fought this battle every day. Peter was a hindrance. Because Paul reveals that Peter was succumbing to the peer pressure of mixing grace with law. Which really caused so much resistance because Peter was assumed higher up, more of an authority. Paul once called him out, to his face.... All through his writings..... We see talk about food sacrificed to idols, etc.... Never could deprogram his audience from this


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## hummerpoo (Feb 15, 2019)

tell sackett said:


> Have mercy


Sometimes one just ain't enough.
…


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 15, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> ....I don't believe he was Paul's companion. If he had of been, then he would have had such deep pockets to draw from, of stories, regarding Paul, and the context of Christianity.



Unless you're calling Paul a liar, you must now accept that Luke was indeed with Paul and drew from "deep pockets, or stories, regarding Paul, and the context of Christianity".    At least you have to admit that Luke did, in fact, know Paul and what he taught very well.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 15, 2019)

1gr8bldr said:


> Just as 1 comment of Luke as the "beloved physician" does not make Luke into a Doctor.



I think most on here would agree that you are really really having to stretch it to think Paul was not talking about Luke...and calling him a physician doesn't make him a doctor.        He doesn't have to be a doctor....what we know is that Luke was, indeed, a physician and Paul said that Luke was with him.   The implication is that if Luke did write Acts, then we can trust what he said about Paul...as you said.


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