# So the Aurora massacre apparently was not entirely tragic



## Six million dollar ham (Jul 24, 2012)

So sayeth Jerry Newcombe of Truth in Action:



> "If a Christian dies early, if a Christian dies young, *it seems tragic, but really it is not tragic because they are going to a wonderful place *... on the other hand, if a person doesn’t know Jesus Christ ... if they knowingly rejected Jesus Christ, then, basically, they are going to a terrible place."



Gosh, he could have actually thanked the shooter and it wouldn't have been too much a departure from his words here.  And yes, ignore the actual appearance of a mangled body with its guts hanging out and eyes bulged from a headshot or something...they're going to heaven!  How awesome!


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## centerpin fan (Jul 24, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Gosh, he could have actually thanked the shooter ...



... but he didn't, and he wouldn't.  He's just highlighting the hope Christians have in the face of any tragedy.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 24, 2012)

If you were in Heaven, would you care what your Earthly body looked like? I think I would be too focused on ..well..I would be in heaven so my focus would NOT be on earth


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2012)

This reminds me of something that happened in a church I used to go to......

A little boy died after a long illness.  He was about 8 years old.  Anyway, the preacher got the news at the end of the service, and he was crying uncontrollably when he announced it to the congregation.  Everybody in the audience was clearly troubled.  A kid dieing is always tragic.

Anyway, this was a relatively large church, but as the congregation left nobody was speaking.  Very solemn moment.  One lady decided to change that.....she started running around the atrium yelling "rejoice, be glad, the boy is with Jesus!!!"  I found that incredibly offensive.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 25, 2012)

> I found that incredibly offensive.



...and rightly so.

Not because what she was saying wasn't true, but because what she was doing was unbiblical.

This addresses Ham's very trollish concern as well.  The Bible very clearly tells us to mourn with those who mourn.  That's what the pastor was doing and that's what the congregation was doing....until that lady did that.

What she was saying was true.  But it was not what the mourners needed to hear at that moment.  There is a time for everything (again...biblical....think Beatles).  The moment you find out someone has died is not the time to rejoice with those who are mourning.  It is a time to comfort them.  They know the truth and the good news about where their loved one is.  But right in that moment they are mourning the loss...and we should do it with them.

What Mr. Newcombe said was true.  It was ill timed and I truly wish Christians would understand that right in the moment of a tragedy is NOT the time to jump for joy.  It is, instead, a moment to mourn and comfort.  There is time later to explain the hope and joy that their loved one is not dead forever.

Many of us (Christian and non) tend to want to 'fix' problems and are uncomfortable when someone is hurting.  So we "pep talk" in those situations.  We try to make them feel better so that we won't be uncomfortable.  All they really need is just for someone to cry with them and help them mourn the loss.  For Pete's sake....PLEASE....please people....when something terrible happens to someone, don't let the first words that come out of your mouth be Romans 8:28.  That verse is true and good.....that moment is not the time to quote it to one who is mourning.

Troll on Ham my brotha....troll on.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and rightly so.
> 
> Not because what she was saying wasn't true, but because what she was doing was unbiblical.
> 
> ...



I agree.....with all of it.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 25, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Many of us (Christian and non) tend to want to 'fix' problems and are uncomfortable when someone is hurting. So we "pep talk" in those situations. We try to make them feel better so that we won't be uncomfortable. All they really need is just for someone to cry with them and help them mourn the loss. For Pete's sake....PLEASE....please people....when something terrible happens to someone, don't let the first words that come out of your mouth be Romans 8:28. That verse is true and good.....that moment is not the time to quote it to one who is mourning.


 
Very very well said


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## Ronnie T (Jul 25, 2012)

I agree also.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 25, 2012)

"Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep." (Romans 12:15)


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## Paymaster (Jul 25, 2012)

I do as well. Jesus wept at the death of Lazarus, knowing he was about to raise him from the grave. He mourned with the loved ones.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep." (Romans 12:15)



I should also add that this stirs conflicting emotions in me. My Mom died when I was 21 and had requested for there to be no funeral. She was not opposed for immediate family to meet at the grave site for a service but wanted it to be a time of rejoicing. "Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice." This was very difficult for the unbelievers in the family to comprehend. How could they? It was also difficult for the believers to carry out. How could they?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 25, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and rightly so.
> 
> Not because what she was saying wasn't true, but because what she was doing was unbiblical.
> 
> ...



It's unfortunate that you can't just make a decent post without calling me a troll.  It's clear that you recognize your argument is paper thin so you, as usual, like to sprinkle "troll" throughout your posts when responding for a little extra kick.  In other words your intellectual effort here is on par with the work ethic of a welfare queen.  

As for your assertion that what the man said was true, albeit ill-timed, it tells me plenty.  Thanks.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 25, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> If you were in Heaven, would you care what your Earthly body looked like? I think I would be too focused on ..well..I would be in heaven so my focus would NOT be on earth



So ross the deer slayer, if it was *your *loved one murdered like that (or in any manner) you're going to be happy about their departure because it's to a better place?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree also.



With what, that getting murdered is not all bad?


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## Ronnie T (Jul 25, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> With what, that getting murdered is not all bad?



Yep!
Ain't no big thang.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Yep!
> Ain't no big thang.



Respective religion aside, how much difference is there in this attitude and that of a Taliban martyr?  By "this attitude" I mean yours here if it were sincere, as opposed to the patronizing tone you use so frequently here.


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## JB0704 (Jul 25, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> With what, that getting murdered is not all bad?



Ham, I get what you're saying, and I would believe the way you do if I did not believe in God.  And I believe that getting murdered is all bad.....regardless of what happens after the fact.  Murder is evil, and murdering children is the most evil.  

I think it is absolutely ridiculous for a person to proclaim joy in such a tragedy.  To do such a thing is wrong on so many levels.  I am a father of two, if somebody "rejoiced" in my kid's demise, they would be quickly shut up.  But, from a Christians perspective, we have hope.  Right or wrong, that is the core of our system.  That is what folks are trying to express here.  The comments from that man about this tragedy were ill-timed, no doubt. 

I didn't think you were trolling.  Christians are supposed to be able to defend our beliefs.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 26, 2012)

> It's unfortunate that you can't just make a decent post without calling me a troll.



Just calling a spade a spade.....spade.




> It's clear that you recognize your argument is paper thin so you, as usual, like to sprinkle "troll" throughout your posts when responding for a little extra kick. In other words your intellectual effort here is on par with the work ethic of a welfare queen.



I wasn't making an argument against you.  I don't bother addressing what you're concerned about with Christianity anymore.  I was making a point about how I feel Christians should handle situations like this biblically.



> As for your assertion that what the man said was true, albeit ill-timed, it tells me plenty. Thanks.



I believe in God the Father Almighty, in Jesus Christ his only son our Lord and in the Holy Spirit.  I believe that the Bible is their word revealed to us and that it is truth.

Biblically speaking, what the man said was true.  Ill-timed and quite insensitive to the suffering of others.  But, biblically, it is true.  It seriously doesn't concern me whether you approve of it or not.

So I called you a troll...and you, in grand fashion and rising above it all compare me to a welfare queen....congratulations.  You're now also a hypocrite.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 26, 2012)

> Ham, I get what you're saying, and I would believe the way you do if I did not believe in God. And I believe that getting murdered is all bad.....regardless of what happens after the fact. Murder is evil, and murdering children is the most evil.



Agreed.



> I think it is absolutely ridiculous for a person to proclaim joy in such a tragedy. To do such a thing is wrong on so many levels. I am a father of two, if somebody "rejoiced" in my kid's demise, they would be quickly shut up. But, from a Christians perspective, we have hope. Right or wrong, that is the core of our system. That is what folks are trying to express here. The comments from that man about this tragedy were ill-timed, no doubt.



James (and other places like Romans) tells us to consider it joy when we face trials of various kinds.  As believers, we are called to be joyful in affliction.  Not for the sake of suffering, but because it produces endurance, character and hope which does not disappoint.  We are not called, however, to tell other people that their sadness is sin and that they should be glad that their loved one was just gunned down mercilessly.  

Considering suffering joy is no easy task and I suspect that ability is reserved for very mature believers.  We are personally called to do that.  We are also personally called to mourn with those who are not able to get there yet.


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## JB0704 (Jul 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> James (and other places) tell us to consider it joy when we face trials of various kinds.  As believers, we are called to be joyful in affliction.  We are not called, however, to tell other people that their sadness is sin and that they should be glad that their loved one was just gunned down mercilessly.
> 
> Considering suffering joy is no easy task and I suspect that ability is reserved for very mature believers.  We are personally called to do that.  We are also personally called to mourn with those who are not able to get there yet.



Huntinfool.   I agree with what you are saying.  I personally struggle with that passage in James because I am not "mature," and will readily admit that (and I assume my posts make it painfully obvious).  Though I try to be.

I was only trying to point out to Ham that Christians see hope beyond the sorrow.  And, I know it must seem ridiculous to those who do not.

My comments on "proclaiming joy" were relevant to the concept of a preacher getting on T.V. and claiming it was a joyous moment....or that ill advised woman running through the sanctuary of my old church.  Both, to me, are counter-productive.

I liked what Paymaster said about even Jesus weeping in the face of tragedy.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 26, 2012)

What Pay said is absolutely right.  Jesus had no reason to weep.  He knew what he was about to do.  He was weeping because of the suffering he saw in the people around him.  It was genuine emotion because he was human.  But he was modeling for us at that same moment.

I'm with you...I saw a picture yesterday of one of the guys who was killed.  He was a very young guy and the picture was of him smiling and holding his two little bitty kids (who both looked to be under 4)....and I just cried.  Revoke my man card....I got choked up on the way home listening to the teenage son of the guy who was killed and had three teenage daughters and a son.  His son talked about how he was his hero and best friend and how he would never hold a greater title than "your son".  

If somebody did something like that to one of my kids....right now...I would not rejoice that they had been killed.  That's not what the passages are talking about though.  We rejoice that we are being drawn closer to God in the situation...not that the child was killed.  That is a very sad and tragic thing and we are right to mourn.  I think, though, that we need to understand that there is a difference in being "joyful" and being "happy".  Joy is something deeper than happiness.  I believe that it is entirely possible to have joy in a situation while being overwhelmed with grief and I believe that is what Paul and James are talking about.


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## JB0704 (Jul 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm with you...I saw a picture yesterday of one of the guys who was killed.  He was a very young guy and the picture was of him smiling and holding his two little bitty kids (who both looked to be under 4)....and I just cried.  Revoke my man card....I got choked up on the way home listening to the teenage son of the guy who was killed and had three teenage daughters and a son.  His son talked about how he was his hero and best friend and how he would never hold a greater title than "your son".



Your man card doesn't get revoked for that.   If you had gotten choked up over curtains at Linens and Things, then you would have a problem 

On a serious note, my best friend and long time hunting buddy died a year and a half ago, and I just recieved some of his things from his sister last Friday.  In particular, his bow, which I am going to hunt with from now on.  Though he has been dead over a year, when I got home, I put the bow away, and cried like a baby.  I miss my friend.  I cannot imagine what a family who loses a child goes through.

I get what you are saying about joy.  And agree.  And I also wish Christians (not you, the fella who is the subject of the OP) would exercise more wisdom when conveying these thoughts.  It almost seems like this fella added insult to injury.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 26, 2012)

The do have some fine curtains at Linens and Things.


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## Havana Dude (Jul 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> The do have some fine curtains at Linens and Things.



Now that gets the man card for sure, just the fact that you know such a place exists, gets it suspended, but to know what is in the place............gone!!!!!!

Sticking my head in the door here, and I have to say this. I read alot of these type posts on here from time to time. At first glance, it looks like Ham is trolling. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, I will say he asks a genuine question. One, that I suspect he will never get a satisfactory answer to. The closest we can come to helping him, is to condemn those who rejoice over such a tragedy, at the time and place they do such a thing. He will never understand looking beyond the tragedy, since he has no belief in God, with life everlasting. He simply cannot comprehend such an idea. Ham, that is not a dig at you, simply facts. We grieve just like a non believer in these moments of tragedy. These are not works of God, but works of the devil. But if you don't believe in God, then surely you don't believe in the devil, and you just see this as evil humanity, and people are dead, the end. The missing part of the puzzle, is that we believe it is not the end.


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## gtparts (Jul 26, 2012)

I think at issue is in part the idea of dying. What the victims have experienced is physical or biological cessation of the processes that sustain each and every form of life. It is both normal and, for most, regarded as inevitable.

Christians have reason to believe that the true essence of each individual survives when the body does not. How far does that belief go to relieving the sorrow of loss? To marginalize the length and depth of such grief would be to presume upon the grieving. That is just plain bad taste; cruel and sadistic behavior. 

Can good come out of a tragic event? We know that it can and it has. Each life saved by sprinklers, fire hoses, fire escapes, and fire hydrants (strategically placed and maintained) is cause for rejoicing. Huge gains in medicine and medical treatments have resulted from many critical situations involving death or severe injury. Look at the life of the late Steve Reeves as an example. 

Surely, in all this we realize that some folks misspeak, some have abominable timing, some lack sufficient compassion, and some just don't fully think things out before they open their mouths or set hands to pen or keyboard. 

Those of us who follow Christ need to be motivated first by extending grace and compassion to others. Our second concern should be to facilitate healing. 

Ham, if we follow these two guidelines, we will have little time to criticize and point fingers.


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## Israel (Jul 26, 2012)

What is the tragedy?
Is it death...of itself? 
Death imposed?
Or only the manner in which it comes?


Or is it that man is so desperate to be seen and known...he will spare no barbarity...even up to destroying all he can reach with his hostility...to be acknowledged?
Each round screaming the frustration of the man who declares you WILL know me, now.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Just calling a spade a spade.....spade.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you resort to name-calling and admittedly dodge my topic to go on an unrelated diatribe.  It makes your assessment of me all the more rich.  And comical.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 26, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> If somebody did something like that to one of my kids....right now...I would not rejoice that they had been killed.  That's not what the passages are talking about though.  We rejoice that we are being drawn closer to God in the situation...not that the child was killed.  That is a very sad and tragic thing and we are right to mourn.  I think, though, that we need to understand that there is a difference in being "joyful" and being "happy".  Joy is something deeper than happiness.  I believe that it is entirely possible to have joy in a situation while being overwhelmed with grief and I believe that is what Paul and James are talking about.



Holy crap.  Have you ever considered just sticking with one emotion at a time from a given situation?  It's amazing what mental contortions a devotion to Christianity can cause you to do.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 26, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Sticking my head in the door here, and I have to say this. I read alot of these type posts on here from time to time. At first glance, it looks like Ham is trolling. But to give him the benefit of the doubt, I will say he asks a genuine question. One, that I suspect he will never get a satisfactory answer to. The closest we can come to helping him, is to condemn those who rejoice over such a tragedy, at the time and place they do such a thing. He will never understand looking beyond the tragedy, since he has no belief in God, with life everlasting. He simply cannot comprehend such an idea. Ham, that is not a dig at you, simply facts. We grieve just like a non believer in these moments of tragedy. These are not works of God, but works of the devil. But if you don't believe in God, then surely you don't believe in the devil, and you just see this as evil humanity, and people are dead, the end. The missing part of the puzzle, is that we believe it is not the end.



Good post.  No this is actually an _excellent _post and you clearly put forth the effort to address the topic.  I don't take exception to your point of me not being able to comprehend...but I don't quite agree with it.  Maybe _comprehend_'s not the right term, but the first one that comes to mind for ya.  I'll just say I don't subscribe.  

Again, good on ya.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 26, 2012)

gtparts said:


> I think at issue is in part the idea of dying. What the victims have experienced is physical or biological cessation of the processes that sustain each and every form of life. It is both normal and, for most, regarded as inevitable.



That's the totality of it for me.  What this shooter did was cause this cessation of biological functions, absence of vital signs, etc for a whole lot of people.  I see it as no more than a complete robbery of a future, a most violent insult, and pain and suffering for many more.  Nothing good at all.  I just see it differently than you guys.  Obviously I'm not saying you trumpet the joy to be found in mass murder, I'm just referring to what the future holds for a person once they're dead.


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## Israel (Jul 27, 2012)

"a most violent insult"

Well said.

Yeah...murder is simply an emphatic way of saying "I don't want you here".

true dat.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 27, 2012)

> So you resort to name-calling...



Do the words "welfare" and "queen" ring a bell for ya Pot?

Sincerely,
Kettle


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## thedeacon (Jul 27, 2012)

Yes what happened in Co. was a tragady in every sense of the word. I would never be so hard hearted to say anything differant.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 27, 2012)

Christian's hold life to be very precious.  Every life comes from God so every life should only be taken as God had intended.
I can't recall the old testament scripture(not unusual) but there is one that alludes to the fact that a murderer prevents a person from becoming and fulfilling all that God had anticipated for a person's life.

Even though not I, most Christians are in favor for capital punishment in the case of most murders.  Again, verification of the sanctity of life, albeit, the taking of a life in return for the taking might seem confusing.

Life is important.  It is given by God.  It is blessed by God.
But the ending of physical life for a believer is not the end of life.
It is only the end of the physical relationship.
As horrible and as brutal as death can be, there are things worse than death.
Personally, I await it with some anticipation.  Though I'd rather not accept it in a theater with my lovely wife being terrorized.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 27, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Do the words "welfare" and "queen" ring a bell for ya Pot?
> 
> Sincerely,
> Kettle



The conversation in this thread passed you by long ago.  Go away.


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## Huntinfool (Jul 30, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Go away.






You first my man.


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## gtparts (Jul 30, 2012)

I have a sadness about the loss of life, the potential unrealized. I have revulsion for the action taken by Mr. Holmes. I can find joy in the victory accorded those who in that moment were found in Christ. 

Life goes on... or does it? 

Eternal life with Christ is a joy forever.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 30, 2012)

i'm gonna start out that this was a tragic event ,but none of you know anything about these people to know if they are going to the heaven you believe in do you....did they say such and such was a christian,muslim,catholic,atheist,deist,ect,ect....


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## Huntinfool (Jul 30, 2012)

hummdaddy said:


> but none of you know anything about these people to know if they are going to the heaven you believe in do you....did they say such and such was a christian,muslim,catholic,atheist,deist,ect,ect....



and your point is.....

Was there someone who has posted in this thread who said "I know they were all Christians!"?


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## Havana Dude (Jul 30, 2012)

hummdaddy said:


> i'm gonna start out that this was a tragic event ,but none of you know anything about these people to know if they are going to the heaven you believe in do you....did they say such and such was a christian,muslim,catholic,atheist,deist,ect,ect....



Only the person knows what is in their heart. As Christians, we only hope they had accepted Christ. That's all we can do from here. Hummy, you are 100 % correct in this statement.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> If you were in Heaven, would you care what your Earthly body looked like? I think I would be too focused on ..well..I would be in heaven so my focus would NOT be on earth



No tears in heaven. We probably wouldn't even know nor care, what our bodies looked like on earth. We will be like Christ. We will be no longer of the flesh but of the spirit. I know my body will die, no telling what it will look like when I die or even after I die. It's my spirit that will live on.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep." (Romans 12:15)



Amen!!


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## ross the deer slayer (Aug 1, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So ross the deer slayer, if it was *your *loved one murdered like that (or in any manner) you're going to be happy about their departure because it's to a better place?



Probably not immediately but eventually I'm sure I would realize it


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 1, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> Probably not immediately but eventually I'm sure I would realize it



Well for helping to hasten your loved one to a better place, would you thank the killer for their favor?


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## Havana Dude (Aug 1, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well for helping to hasten your loved one to a better place, would you thank the killer for their favor?



Ham, if someone punched you in the face and handed you 10 million dollars, would you Thank them for their favor? Or in your hatred for being punched in the face, turn down everlasting freedom from debt, and the ability to help loved ones financially?


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## gtparts (Aug 2, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well for helping to hasten your loved one to a better place, would you thank the killer for their favor?



Sometimes I really question how your mind works. Wrongful death is no favor, regardless of the eternal destination of the victim. Christians find comfort and hope where you see none. Just because you may not see it or experience it does not mean it isn't real. 

Still praying for you, dude.


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## ross the deer slayer (Aug 2, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well for helping to hasten your loved one to a better place, would you thank the killer for their favor?



I would need to forgive that person who murdered. It isnt a favor to kill someone, "thou shall not murder". We are told not to commit murder in The Bible so I do not see murder as good in that case Mr. Ham


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 3, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Ham, *if someone punched you in the face *and handed you 10 million dollars, would you Thank them for their favor? Or in your hatred for being punched in the face, turn down everlasting freedom from debt, and the ability to help loved ones financially?



Is that how you see murder?


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 3, 2012)

gtparts said:


> Sometimes I really question how your mind works.


Really?  Am I the one on here mentioning how happy I would be about my murdered loved one going to heaven?  Do you seriously think it's reasonable for a person to be glad about such?



gtparts said:


> Wrongful death is no favor, regardless of the eternal destination of the victim. Christians find comfort and hope where you see none. *Just because you may not see it or experience it does not mean it isn't real. *



I'm seriously thinking about updating my sig line.  That's how bad this line of yours is.  That's weak sir.


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 3, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I would need to forgive that person who murdered. It isnt a favor to kill someone, "thou shall not murder". We are told not to commit murder in The Bible so I do not see murder as good in that case Mr. Ham



Forgive?  For what?!!  They sent your loved one to heaven!  Paradise! Nirvana!  What's the problem?

No seriously, is murdering a Christian a good thing or a bad thing?  You're giving me mixed signals here.  You say it's not a good thing and no favor, but earlier you agreed that you'd be happy about their disposition.


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## fish hawk (Aug 3, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Ham, if someone punched you in the face and handed you 10 million dollars, would you Thank them for their favor? Or in your hatred for being punched in the face, turn down everlasting freedom from debt, and the ability to help loved ones financially?





Six million dollar ham said:


> Is that how you see murder?


Simple question that you didnt answer,you tried to answer it with another question!!!You have a great pair of dancing shoes.


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## Havana Dude (Aug 3, 2012)

Havana Dude said:


> Ham, if someone punched you in the face and handed you 10 million dollars, would you Thank them for their favor? Or in your hatred for being punched in the face, turn down everlasting freedom from debt, and the ability to help loved ones financially?



Ham, do I really need to explain the comparison to you? No doubt it would be tough for you to comprehend the answer. How you came up with "is that how you see murder?" is beyond me. You cherry picked part of my statement, and did not bother to try and think through my comparison. You want everyone to answer your questions, but you don't want to answer ours. Why is that? 

You question the posters use of the word forgiveness. Aside from the religious use of the word, non Christians can benefit from forgiveness as well. It really has nothing to do with religion. By forgiving someone of a wrong, you are doing nothing more than letting go of the anger towards that person. By doing so, you free yourself from the hate that is nothing but poison to your mind, body and soul. THIS DOES NOT TRANSLATE INTO, HEY BUDDY, IT IS JUST FINE AND DANDY THAT YOU MURDERED MY_____________. You seem to think that as Christians, we get bad news of this sort, and it is party time, and time to rejoice. That is simply not the case. We get angry too. We have feelings of sadness too. let me see if I can explain what is trying to be conveyed to you here. Let's just say, someone murders my wife. Oh boy, I am filled with hate for this person, I want to kill them like they killed my wife, I want to torture them. I am filled with feelings of sadness, grief, despair, I ask myself, how can I go on without her? etc.etc. Then at some point in the future, I come to the realization, that nothing I can do will bring her back(part of healing) I begin the process of "letting go" of all those bad things I want to do(forgiveness), and asking God to forgive me for my thoughts. (You with me so far?). For me, this is the point in which I might utter such words as " Well, if she can't be here on earth with me, at least I know she is with God in heaven " or something along those lines, don't pick apart a hypothetical please. Does this clear anything up for you? 

Now to explain the comparison I made earlier. To make it simple, this how I would assume you would respond. 

Tough guy: Punches Ham in the face

Ham: Hey you dirt bag, you punched me in the face, that hurt, you broke my nose!!!

Tough guy: Here is 10 million dollars, to spend how ever you see fit.

Ham: But you punched me in the face and it hurts!! 

Tough guy: I'm sorry, here take the money.

Ham: Well, OK, I'll take the money..........my face still hurts, but I forgive you. 

*******************************************

Your face hurts for a while, but it heals, you got 10 million bucks, and soon, you almost forget what tough guy looks like.


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## gtparts (Aug 3, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> That's the totality of it for me.  What this shooter did was cause this cessation of biological functions, absence of vital signs, etc for a whole lot of people.  I see it as no more than a complete robbery of a future, a most violent insult, and pain and suffering for many more.  Nothing good at all.  I just see it differently than you guys.  Obviously I'm not saying you trumpet the joy to be found in mass murder, I'm just referring to what the future holds for a person once they're dead.





gtparts said:


> Sometimes I really question how your mind works. Wrongful death is no favor, regardless of the eternal destination of the victim. Christians find comfort and hope where you see none. Just because you may not see it or experience it does not mean it isn't real.
> 
> Still praying for you, dude.





Six million dollar ham said:


> Really?  Am I the one on here mentioning how happy I would be about my murdered loved one going to heaven?  Do you seriously think it's reasonable for a person to be glad about such?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm seriously thinking about updating my sig line.  That's how bad this line of yours is.  That's weak sir.



The first line above says it all. For you, death is the end. For Christians, it is just an intermission in life eternal, so brief as to be unnoticeable.

Feel free to use whatever is permissible by forum standards for your sig line, however, you may want to note that you use it with the utmost sarcasm so you won't be misunderstood.

Still prayin'.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 3, 2012)

This particular area of the spiritual forum is identitied as an area of discussion and study:

Spiritual Discussions and Study (3 Viewing) 
"Need questions answered, want to get involved with a study group or maybe just want a little clarification? This is the place for you."


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but he didn't, and he wouldn't.  He's just highlighting the hope Christians have in the face of any tragedy.



Amen!
Christ gives us peace beyond our understanding when grief comes especially from death of a loved one. Peace that some people don't even understand. I want everyone clogging and singing I'll Fly Away when I pass. I'll be in a much better place than I am now. But I'm old now and had a chance to live my life...that is extremely sad for me for those in this terrible shooting.

I'm in no way saying the shooting wasn't a tragedy. I pray for peace for all the ones left behind to deal with it.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I should also add that this stirs conflicting emotions in me. My Mom died when I was 21 and had requested for there to be no funeral. She was not opposed for immediate family to meet at the grave site for a service but wanted it to be a time of rejoicing. "Rejoice in the Lord alway: and again I say, Rejoice." This was very difficult for the unbelievers in the family to comprehend. How could they? It was also difficult for the believers to carry out. How could they?



I agree.

Sorry you didn't have your mom longer than that....sorry for you, not her. How could you not be joyful knowing someone is standing in the presence of our Lord....exactly where I want to be.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

Paymaster said:


> I do as well. Jesus wept at the death of Lazarus, knowing he was about to raise him from the grave. He mourned with the loved ones.



I think Jesus also wept because the others didn't trust Him that He could/would do what He said He would do. They were questioning Him why He was so 'slow' in getting there.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Respective religion aside, how much difference is there in this attitude and that of a Taliban martyr?  By "this attitude" I mean yours here if it were sincere, as opposed to the patronizing tone you use so frequently here.



Who are you comparing to a taliban martyr....the shooter? The taliban martyr kills people and kills themselves at the same time. These people were victims, not martyrs. A martyr has a choice in the matter, these people did not (and none of us) chose for it to happen either.


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## ross the deer slayer (Aug 3, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Forgive?  For what?!!  They sent your loved one to heaven!  Paradise! Nirvana!  What's the problem?
> 
> No seriously, is murdering a Christian a good thing or a bad thing?  You're giving me mixed signals here.  You say it's not a good thing and no favor, but earlier you agreed that you'd be happy about their disposition.



Its sad for the friends and family of the person, but the friends and family can feel better knowing that their friend is in Heaven. It is written in the bible not to murder. I guess God wants most of us to live our full earthly lives for Him maybe.


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 3, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> This particular area of the spiritual forum is identitied as an area of discussion and study:
> 
> Spiritual Discussions and Study (3 Viewing)
> "Need questions answered, want to get involved with a study group or maybe just want a little clarification?



Great, it's perfect!  



Ronnie T said:


> This is the place for you."



I appreciate the hospitality too.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I would need to forgive that person who murdered. It isnt a favor to kill someone, "thou shall not murder". We are told not to commit murder in The Bible so I do not see murder as good in that case Mr. Ham



I agree.


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## Havana Dude (Aug 3, 2012)

..............Crickets................


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