# Why is speed not a factor?



## aj.hiner (Aug 2, 2014)

Now this will no doubt be a debated topic but was interested in hearing why speed is important or not important when shooting your bow? I personally love the speed. I like shooting over or around 300fps. but know most guys shoot in the 260 to 280fps range. Here's what I cant understand. I'll sit here and watch these guys on TV shooting 260fps pulling 60lbs and watch their arrow flight at 30-40 yds look like a rainbow. Then the deer ducks the arrow by a foot and they will say speed don't matter? I don't get it? If you can shoot accurately at 300+fps then whey not shoot a flat arrow at 30-40. I know I have shot next to several guys and watch my arrow be as flat as can be out to say 40 yds and then they shoot and it lobs it in there. They can still hit the same spot but with how many deer jump the string why wouldn't you want to shoot as fast as you can while still being accurate. Again, not hating just wondering what the thoughts are behind why speed is not a big deal to some.


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## Kris87 (Aug 2, 2014)

Just like u posted in your other thread, speed can be hard to tune for some shooters.  Add in cold temps, an elevated position, elevated heartbeat, and it can be harder to control.  Not saying speed is bad, but X fps isn't necessary.  A quiet, forgiving bow is more important.  If you've ever spent time with sight tape software building tapes for different speeds, you'd see there's not a HUGE difference between a bow shooting 280 fps and one shooting 300 fps.


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## aj.hiner (Aug 2, 2014)

Kris87 said:


> Just like u posted in your other thread, speed can be hard to tune for some shooters.  Add in cold temps, an elevated position, elevated heartbeat, and it can be harder to control.  Not saying speed is bad, but X fps isn't necessary.  A quiet, forgiving bow is more important.  If you've ever spent time with sight tape software building tapes for different speeds, you'd see there's not a HUGE difference between a bow shooting 280 fps and one shooting 300 fps.



I can agree with there not being a difference in 20 fps at 0-20 but I have shot with a lot of folks and when you watch the arrow flight at say 40 yds it seems like that 20 fps makes a drastic difference mines still flat as can, gets there in a hurry and penetration is better.


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## SELFBOW (Aug 2, 2014)

Speed doesn't kill. Silent bows w punch do .....


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## riskyb (Aug 2, 2014)

all my newer bows have been 290-310 i dont see why you cant have a happy medium


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## aj.hiner (Aug 2, 2014)

YOu can and I agree im not knocking the slower speeds I just constantly see deer ducking the arrow and have always been taught that penetration is of utmost importance. Well if im shooting 310 FPS and a guy is standing next to me shooting the the same arrow and BH set up Will the faster bow not only get there quicker but have more penetration as well?


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## riskyb (Aug 2, 2014)

that depends i did an arrow test recently one at 423 grains 288fps one at 388gr and 302 fps one at 403gr and 299 fps the 403 grain had more ke than the faster arrow or slower arrow so it should have better penetration every bow has a sweet spot gotta find it but yes i like a little speed every now and then too


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## Grey Man (Aug 2, 2014)

I'll tell you why I personally don't shoot a speed bow: harder to keep in tune. Durability is a factor. I have a single cam Diamond that is almost impossible to take out of tune. I keep reading that it's harder to tune speed bows. So I stick with slower and more reliable because I prefer it.


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## aj.hiner (Aug 2, 2014)

buckbacks said:


> Speed doesn't kill. Silent bows w punch do .....





riskyb said:


> all my newer bows have been 290-310 i dont see why you cant have a happy medium





riskyb said:


> that depends i did an arrow test recently one at 423 grains 288fps one at 388gr and 302 fps one at 403gr and 299 fps the 403 grain had more ke than the faster arrow or slower arrow so it should have better penetration every bow has a sweet spot gotta find it but yes i like a little speed every now and then too


Yep I agrre with the test however its because you used a lighter arrow for the faster speed if you take a bow shooting 300 fps and a bow shooting 288 fps with the same 400 grain arrow the faster bow will no doubt have better KE


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## aj.hiner (Aug 2, 2014)

is there some kind of calculator that relates the arrow drop in inches at say 20, 30 , and 40 yds by fps of the bow that anyone knows of?


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## riskyb (Aug 2, 2014)

Agreed I think some of the short brace height high speed bows can take more to tune or keep tuned and yes if u can sling 400 gens faster you will have more energy also shorter brave heights take good form and practice to stay accurate imo


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## spydermon (Aug 2, 2014)

Lot of old school hunters still go towards the heavier side of the spectrum for arrows.  Depending on what your hunting, thats way more important than speed.  I know several that took very fast/lightweight arrows combos elk hunting about 20 years ago and they didn't fare too well.  Both elk and mule deer were wounded with poor penetration.  Both quartering away shots..using small very light heads.

For deer hunting here in Ga we can get by with 350 gr arrows I'd guess.  Most are likely in that 350-400 gr range with varying draw lengths.  These weight arrows produce some nice speed with today's bows and they are deadly...I personally am like the op and want the 300+ and my set up provides that with plenty of energy.  Heavier and slightly slower arrows will still hit hard and bows today push those heavier arrows fast enough to still have nice speed for flat shooting


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## Pneumothorax (Aug 2, 2014)

At the distances I shoot speed matters very little.  For me the fun is getting as close as possible.  By close I mean 25 yards and in.  I don't usually hunt where a shot beyond around 30 is even possible.

Assuming a constant speed:

250fps arrow traveling 25 yards = 300ms (0.3 seconds)
300fps arrow traveling 25 yards = 250ms ( 0.25 seconds)

IMO, the better hunter you are, the less speed you need.


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## aj.hiner (Aug 2, 2014)

I agree if your shooting with say 25 yds speed probably isn't a factor. But me personally if im trying to put meat in the freezer and a big ol nanny is standing there in an open lane broadside at 40, She will be busted and a bow shooting 300+fps helps on a shot like that. Its not that your a better hunter than me because I shoot a speed bow I just chose to put my meet in the freezer on that day of that hunt at 40 yds instead of 20. I let several walk under my tree year in and year out just because I chose not to take the shot or didn't need the meat. But your opinion is valued thanks. I figure most guys shoot less speed because they just choose not to shoot a deer at greater distances. TO each his own


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## kbuck1 (Aug 2, 2014)

I choose slower because a slow hit is better than a fast miss. Go to an indoor Vegas style archery tournament and see what kind of speeds those guys are shooting. Slow.  If I'm taking a long shot, ( over 40 yards) and I have and will do again if the situation requires it I want a more forgiving bow. Not a speed bow.  While I would agree that most archers can shoot today's speed bows well at a target under no pressure, things change significantly in a hunting situation when nerves are involved.


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## dh88 (Aug 3, 2014)

aj.hiner said:


> Yep I agrre with the test however its because you used a lighter arrow for the faster speed if you take a bow shooting 300 fps and a bow shooting 288 fps with the same 400 grain arrow the faster bow will no doubt have better KE



I think you misunderstood riskyb's post a little


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## Scottyhardison (Aug 3, 2014)

What would hurt more a leaf blown at 60 mph or a concrete block traveling 2 mph. I'll take mass over speed.


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## aj.hiner (Aug 3, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> What would hurt more a leaf blown at 60 mph or a concrete block traveling 2 mph. I'll take mass over speed.



Ill take both its not like I shoot a 300 grain arrow. IM shooting a 375 grain arrow at 306fps. That's a concrete block at 60 mph lol


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## Kris87 (Aug 3, 2014)

aj.hiner said:


> Ill take both its not like I shoot a 300 grain arrow. IM shooting a 375 grain arrow at 306fps. That's a concrete block at 60 mph lol



To put it in perspective using your 40 yard scenario from an above post.  Using your bow at 306, and my bow at 285, when your arrow impacts the target at 40 yards, my arrow is only 7 feet away.  And considering the arrow is traveling over 150mph still at that distance, is that really a whole lot?  Its not.


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## Kris87 (Aug 3, 2014)

You asked about calculator programs too, I use OT2 for all my needs.  Google Ontarget archery software to find it.


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## kayaker (Aug 3, 2014)

I shoot slower speeds because with a 25" draw, I haven't found a bow that will shoot 300fps.


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## deast1988 (Aug 3, 2014)

I like heavy, my FMJ with a nockturnal and 100gr tip blew through everything I hit last year. Coyote, fox 4 deer. One was a pass through in the dirt at 41yds no ducking just a solid smack and a 120yd blood trail. Heavy makes things quieter. I'd take a Mack truck at 40mph over a civic at 50mph in a head on collision any day. 7ft difference is so small it's hardly noticeably. I like the idea of knocking the crap out of what and where I hit instead of chasing light arrow speed.

My long bow is in the 180/190 range and Goldtip heavy hunters are punching the target like I've never seen before. They're finished at almost. 600grs


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## tad1 (Aug 3, 2014)

AJ, most folks would prefer a faster bow if all other factors didn't come into play.  I can't pull 70 lbs comfortably, my draw length(which is a huge factor in bow speed) is relatively short at 26.5". The difference in speed between a 26" and 30" draw weight is significant. How low can a person go on arrow weight to pick up more speed?  Also as other posters mentioned, aggressive cam bows are commonly less forgiving to shoot and to tune.  When a deer spooks and loads its muscles to take off, that's just a part of bow hunting that makes it more challenging.  It's likely from the sound or motion of the shot.  Maybe a recurve bow would be nice and quiet in this situation.  I recently bought a used bowtech equalizer and it really is a good bit faster than my older bow!  I seriously doubt though, that I will be a more successful hunter because of it.  But as newer faster bows are designed, people will be standing in line to buy them.  It is a thrill to sling em fast!
       JT


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## Doug B. (Aug 3, 2014)

Is 300+ fps fast enough that a deer won't duck an arrow?


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## cowhornedspike (Aug 3, 2014)

aj.hiner said:


> I know I have shot next to several guys and watch my arrow be as flat as can be out to say 40 yds and then they shoot and it lobs it in there.



There has been a lot of good info posted here and without a doubt a fast arrow flies (a little) flatter than a slower one and gets to the target (a little) quicker, but let's address the flaw in your observation mentioned above.

Your eye is directly above your arrow path when you shoot and off to the side of the arrow path when others shoot so theirs will ALWAYS look like it has more arc than yours to you even if your arrow is slower and has more arc than theirs.  Facts and physics are easy to prove but our anecdotal observations rarely have much value in that process.


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## MCNASTY (Aug 3, 2014)

Doug B. said:


> Is 300+ fps fast enough that a deer won't duck an arrow?



No, I had a video if I can find it I'll post. I shot a deer at 27 yards feeding calmly. The video shows the deer dropping 6-7 inches before the arrow arrives. I was aiming low thankfully and got her. My arrow was 301 fps back then. There's a distance that I am not really positive where it's at when the deer starts to react to the shot. It's somewhere past 20 yards but less than 30 yds there's a zone there where if a deer can drop a little before the arrow gets there. I've noticed this from years of bow hunting and watching how they can respond to the releasing of an arrow at certain distances. My experience is that anything less than 20 yds the just don't have time to react at today's speed. Then again if the deer is very relaxed sometimes they won't jump the string at all at any distance. It's all about reading the deer and anticipating them to move.


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## aj.hiner (Aug 3, 2014)

Kris87 said:


> To put it in perspective using your 40 yard scenario from an above post.  Using your bow at 306, and my bow at 285, when your arrow impacts the target at 40 yards, my arrow is only 7 feet away.  And considering the arrow is traveling over 150mph still at that distance, is that really a whole lot?  Its not.



OK so let me ask you this this..this isn't an argument just wondering. .So your telling me at 40 yds say that 7 ft is not critical. .But yet a deer can duck an arrow and drop 12 inches in less time than it takes your arrow to impact the deer? So how is say 2-3" in drop at 40 yds not critical? That's the difference in high lung or that dead zone and a non lethal shot IMO My bow say shooting 306 fps over a bow shooting 280 or less will gain several inches in a deers drop when u look at how fast a deer can drop..You see I think everyone looks at it the other way and forgets how fast a deer can drop..I'm sure there's I mathematical way to find out but I'd be willing to bet that 20 fps slower will be a 2 or 3 inch difference or more at POI on a deer when factoring in the deer drop speed.if that's the case then 30fps is absolutely critical


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## aj.hiner (Aug 3, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> There has been a lot of good info posted here and without a doubt a fast arrow flies (a little) flatter than a slower one and gets to the target (a little) quicker, but let's address the flaw in your observation mentioned above.
> 
> Your eye is directly above your arrow path when you shoot and off to the side of the arrow path when others shoot so theirs will ALWAYS look like it has more arc than yours to you even if your arrow is slower and has more arc than theirs.  Facts and physics are easy to prove but our anecdotal observations rarely have much value in that process.



So I guess when I'm watching them shoot from behind them which I so often do that throws your theory out the window right? Read my last post and let physics prove that at the speed a deer drops 30 fps is a matter of several inches at 30-40 yds. . If it's not..shame on me but I believe you'll find how critical it is when comparing it to a deers drop speed


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## Kris87 (Aug 3, 2014)

19 fps is about an inch difference in my setup at 40 yards.  Its not close to 3".  You're also not accounting for that louder bow being heard better either.  Bottom line is there's no scientific way to measure a deer's drop at any distance.  You can measure an arrow, but not a deer's reaction.


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## deast1988 (Aug 3, 2014)

I watched the deer and deer hunting video blind fold a guy put a target on a stick and shoot at the target with him trying to drop the target at the sound of a bow. He made the guy shooting the bow look bad...... They shot 3 bows 280s 300s and. 320s he successfully ducked arrows from each. It's the hunter on how he shoots........ Not the speed of the arrow. Does a deer die if heart shot with a rifle? To muzzfied at 300fps. This has gone from heavy slow to light and fast. Deer react differently they're an unpredictable animal.


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## SCDieselDawg (Aug 3, 2014)

Doesn't a lighter arrow slow down faster? If it's leaving at 300+ Fps what is its speed at 40yds?  I'm not saying that a heavy arrow doesn't lose speed but I doubt it's as much. So both arrows are probably close to the same Fps at 40yds. 

It would be about like throwing a tennis ball versus a base ball. The tennis ball would leave faster but would lose speed throughout the flight.


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## Scottyhardison (Aug 3, 2014)

I see it's a lot like driving a 16 penny nail, a 16oz hammer will drive the nail in and can be swung faster and harder than a 22oz framing hammer but wich one is more efficient at it. I promise you the 22oz hammer will out drive the 16oz hammer any day stroke for stroke. I'm also positive you'll have a lot more bent nails as they hit knots in the wood with the 16oz hammer as well.


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## bowkill7 (Aug 3, 2014)

Studies have shown that a bow would have to shoot over 800 fps to keep an alerted whitetail from having enough time to duck or jump the string at 20 yards. Like Chris said not much difference in 280 and 300 fps.  On the weight verses speed issue, this is my take. Suppose I am standing on the roof of my house and you are on the ground. I have a red brick in one hand and a concrete block in the other, which one had you rather I drop on your head?  The brick will be faster, but the stored energy in  the concrete block will drive you in the dirt like a tent stake!  Lol!


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## cowhornedspike (Aug 3, 2014)

bowkill7 said:


> Studies have shown that a bow would have to shoot over 800 fps to keep an alerted whitetail from having enough time to duck or jump the string at 20 yards. Like Chris said not much difference in 280 and 300 fps.  On the weight verses speed issue, this is my take. Suppose I am standing on the roof of my house and you are on the ground. I have a red brick in one hand and a concrete block in the other, which one had you rather I drop on your head?  The brick will be faster, but the stored energy in  the concrete block will drive you in the dirt like a tent stake!  Lol!



The brick would not be faster but otherwise your example makes sense.


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## APPierce0628 (Aug 3, 2014)

bowkill7 said:


> Studies have shown that a bow would have to shoot over 800 fps to keep an alerted whitetail from having enough time to duck or jump the string at 20 yards. Like Chris said not much difference in 280 and 300 fps.  On the weight verses speed issue, this is my take. Suppose I am standing on the roof of my house and you are on the ground. I have a red brick in one hand and a concrete block in the other, which one had you rather I drop on your head?  The brick will be faster, but the stored energy in  the concrete block will drive you in the dirt like a tent stake!  Lol!



Not disagreeing with the statement about momentum, but a red brick and concrete block dropped from the same height will be going the same speed on contact. Acceleration due to gravity is constant 9.8 meters (30 feet) per second. But I do agree with you on heavier arrow.  And the statement about a lighter arrow slowing down quicker is also valid. The lighter arrow has less momentum, thus gravity and friction have a larger effect on the lighter arrow after time. Just my take on things. I shoot a slow bow at ~52 pounds and 27 inches, so I choose the slower arrow for penetration. Likelihood of my arrow even touching 260 fps is slim, so I figure penetration is better than attempting to gain a whole bunch of speed when I can't get it that fast anyways.


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## alligood729 (Aug 3, 2014)

One other tidbit.....the 800fps could be true, but until they make a bow that shoots faster the 1125fps, a deer is capable of jumping the string. When they make a bow faster than the speed of sound, then the dropping below the arrow becomes a non factor. They can't duck what they can't hear.....that's why every bow hunter should try to get his setup as quiet as possible. If they can hear it, there is the possibility they can duck it.


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## bowkill7 (Aug 3, 2014)

K.  My thinking was the block has much more surface area to create wind drag over the smaller surface area brick.  Kinda like small parachute verses large parachute.  But trust me, after that first ATA show I attended with the broadheads, I am no engineer! Lol!!!!!


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## cowhornedspike (Aug 3, 2014)

aj.hiner said:


> So I guess when I'm watching them shoot from behind them which I so often do that throws your theory out the window right? Read my last post and let physics prove that at the speed a deer drops 30 fps is a matter of several inches at 30-40 yds. . If it's not..shame on me but I believe you'll find how critical it is when comparing it to a deers drop speed



Nothing in what I said disputed the deer drop vs arrow speed stuff...of course they can drop farther if they have more time.
All I was saying is you aren't seeing it apples to apples and you can never see what the shooter himself sees because you can't get your eye lined up as close as his is...just sayin.


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## APPierce0628 (Aug 3, 2014)

bowkill7 said:


> K.  My thinking was the block has much more surface area to create wind drag over the smaller surface area brick.  Kinda like small parachute verses large parachute.  But trust me, after that first ATA show I attended with the broadheads, I am no engineer! Lol!!!!!



I'm not an engineer either. And this is a disputed topic as we do have drag due to our friction in our atmosphere. However it's weight to surface area ratio isn't that significant. But your point was greatly made. Just thought I would bring that point up. No hard feelings.


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## cowhornedspike (Aug 3, 2014)

bowkill7 said:


> K.  My thinking was the block has much more surface area to create wind drag over the smaller surface area brick.  Kinda like small parachute verses large parachute.  But trust me, after that first ATA show I attended with the broadheads, I am no engineer! Lol!!!!!



FWIW the block could actually have less surface area that the brick depending on how they are each dropped...holes facing vertically or flat side down.  Either way wouldn't matter as far as air friction goes unless you have a really really tall house.


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## bowkill7 (Aug 3, 2014)

APPierce0628 said:


> I'm not an engineer either. And this is a disputed topic as we do have drag due to our friction in our atmosphere. However it's weight to surface area ratio isn't that significant. But your point was greatly made. Just thought I would bring that point up. No hard feelings.


That engineer thing is a personal joke.  Had one tell me he had 15 patents in the archery industry and that my broadhead with th shear pin design would not open in an animal.  I then said I have pictures and videos to show different.  He then said I have seen thousands of dead deer pictures and videos, don't bother.  Very, very arrogant and egotistical guy.  In his mind it would not work "on paper". I'm sure he has heard different by now.  Hope he likes the taste of Crow...  Lol!!!


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## Scottyhardison (Aug 3, 2014)

When two objects of different masses are dropped from the same height, both experience the same acceleration, g(9.81 m/s2). The acceleration is independent of mass. Thus when they are dropped, they will always maintain the same velocity and travel the same distance in the same time.


see Newtons law of gravity and Einstein's general relativity.


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## cowhornedspike (Aug 3, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> When two objects of different masses are dropped from the same height, both experience the same acceleration, g(9.81 m/s2). The acceleration is independent of mass. Thus when they are dropped, they will always maintain the same velocity and travel the same distance in the same time.
> 
> 
> see Newtons law of gravity and Einstein's general relativity.




Sooo not true.  Use some common sense here.  The speed is very dependant on mass/density and how it relates to resistance in the air.  Only true if items are dropped in a total vacuum.


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## bowhunterdavid (Aug 3, 2014)

I remember my old 1980s something martin cougar shot about 225fps with a 2216 easton arrow, killed 14 deer with that old bow and cant remember one ducking a arrow, now a days my hoyt, mathews and pse shoot in the low 280 range, 55 to 60 pounds is all i pull, they all are a joy to shot.


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## Scottyhardison (Aug 3, 2014)

In a projectile yes, In a hurricane maybe, dropped from a height where terminal velocity can be met possibly, but dropped (not thrown mind you) from a roof in Georgia at the same time, they are hitting the ground at relatively the same time and speed. Not a race car or golf ball with a driving force here. Two objects dropped from 12 foot or so, ones a brick, the others a block, the driving force being gravity alone, turbulent flow, laminar flow, and drag simply will not play a role large enough for it to be a recognizable difference. Common sense is kind of my thing, and although I love science, I also view things in practical application.




QUOTE=cowhornedspike;8826594]Sooo not true.  Use some common sense here.  The speed is very dependant on mass/density and how it relates to resistance in the air.  Only true if items are dropped in a total vacuum.[/QUOTE]


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## MCNASTY (Aug 3, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> Sooo not true.  Use some common sense here.  The speed is very dependant on mass/density and how it relates to resistance in the air.  Only true if items are dropped in a total vacuum.



Someone hasn't take college Physics yet.

Nothing you think is what is seems in reality. Common  sense has nothing to do with physics. In fact forget everything you think you know when it comes to this subject. It is very challenging to the human mechanical brain because man, you and me, this logically and not scientifically. I found out first hand that what theories I thought were true were very wrong.


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## cowhornedspike (Aug 3, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> When two objects of different masses are dropped from the same height, both experience the same acceleration, g(9.81 m/s2). The acceleration is independent of mass. Thus when they are dropped, they will always maintain the same velocity and travel the same distance in the same time.
> 
> 
> see Newtons law of gravity and Einstein's general relativity.





Scottyhardison said:


> In a projectile yes, In a hurricane maybe, dropped from a height where terminal velocity can be met possibly, but dropped (not thrown mind you) from a roof in Georgia at the same time, they are hitting the ground at relatively the same time and speed. Not a race car or golf ball with a driving force here. Two objects dropped from 12 foot or so, ones a brick, the others a block, the driving force being gravity alone, turbulent flow, laminar flow, and drag simply will not play a role large enough for it to be a recognizable difference. Common sense is kind of my thing, and although I love science, I also view things in practical application.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





MCNASTY said:


> Someone hasn't take college Physics yet.
> 
> Nothing you think is what is seems in reality. Common  sense has nothing to do with physics. In fact forget everything you think you know when it comes to this subject. It is very challenging to the human mechanical brain because man, you and me, this logically and not scientifically. I found out first hand that what theories I thought were true were very wrong.



OK guys you must be correct.  Drop a feather and a golf ball from the roof and they will both accelerate at the same rate and hit the ground at the same time.  Stupid me for thinking they wouldn't.  

Lest you say you didn't say they would, I included your original claim above.


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## Scottyhardison (Aug 3, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> OK guys you must be correct.  Drop a feather and a golf ball from the roof and they will both accelerate at the same rate and hit the ground at the same time.  Stupid me for thinking they wouldn't.
> 
> Lest you say you didn't say they would, I included your original claim above.




The air density is thick enough to play a role in your now new given example. All of the above factors that I mentioned in the original brick vs block example that would not play a roll due to mass and drag would now be very much a factor in the now much lighter feather. It's obvious you ran out of anything substantial to add to the first example that you had to make up a hole new one to make you seem right. Good luck with that....


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## BigCats (Aug 3, 2014)

At some point you max out the ke and start only losing speed , I figure mine to the point on max ke to point of where speed is still there I'm not shooting high speed I'd say 280 maybe if that but I shoot 466 g arrow with head and I have no problem with penatration what so ever.


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## Flaustin1 (Aug 3, 2014)

What about a 531gr arrow at 165fps.  Think it will kill one?


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## MossyOak92 (Aug 3, 2014)

IDEA! lets shoot 100 fps. that way when the deer ducks it will stand back up before the arrow gets there.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 3, 2014)

Speed is nice, but I personally will not give up weight to achieve it. 
Out of the same bow:
A heavier arrow absorbs energy from the bow more efficiently, making the bow quieter. 
A heavier arrow maintains speed downrange better than a lighter one. 
A heavier arrow penetrates better than a lighter one. 
A heavier arrow carries more KE and momentum than a lighter one.


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## MCNASTY (Aug 3, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> OK guys you must be correct.  Drop a feather and a golf ball from the roof and they will both accelerate at the same rate and hit the ground at the same time.  Stupid me for thinking they wouldn't.
> 
> Lest you say you didn't say they would, I included your original claim above.



We're talking velocity not force. Which is directly proportional to mass and acceleration. 
F=MA

Velocity is consistent with acceleration. Which in our case is a projectile so there's the initial energy and then gravity. Technically if a heavy arrow and lighter arrow are projected(at an angle) with the exact same potential energy each will have its own value. The lighter arrow travels a farther distance than the heavier arrow due to acceleration alone. If you want to consider the arrows hitting and penetrating that potential energy will be transferred into force and therefore kinetic energy. Both respectively will have its own value. The energy transferred will depend on mass not weight.


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## jawja7 (Aug 3, 2014)

Jeff Dixon and I had this conversation the other day when discussing the speeds, weight, and KE of my Phoenix and Knightmare. He actually showed me that there is a happy medium when calculating arrow weight and spine for that matter. Some people say a heavier arrow is better, but that's simply not true for all instances. You'll actually start losing KE and speed when you get too heavy. We also looked at shooting a 400 spine and a 350 spine shaft from my 65 pound Phoenix. A 400 spine arrow had the same KE as the 350 but faster. The trick is finding that happy medium. I'm not a speed freak, but I like to shoot around a 400 grain arrow somewhere between 285-300 fps. Just my preference. You can contact him for the specific calculator he uses but I trust his calculations and suggestions.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 4, 2014)

jawja7 said:


> You'll actually start losing KE and speed when you get too heavy.



You will, but it is CRAZY heavy. Almost hard to build an arrow that heavy. We're talking well over 1000 grains. 

I agree there is a happy medium, which I would say is dependent on how YOU hunt, what broadhead YOU shoot, what animals YOU shoot etc...


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## DAVE (Aug 4, 2014)

Doug B. said:


> Is 300+ fps fast enough that a deer won't duck an arrow?



No, 300fps is as easy for a deer to duck as 250fps and the longer the range the more likely the target has moved several inches.


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## aj.hiner (Aug 4, 2014)

Flaustin1 said:


> What about a 531gr arrow at 165fps.  Think it will kill one?



No u don't have a chance at killing one no matter what u shootNo No:


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## satchmo (Aug 5, 2014)

Good subject. No matter how fast we shoot, a deer can still get out of the way of an arrow at 15-20 yards completely. The fastest bow still shoots slower than a red rider BB gun .   The only advantage I see in higher speed is that it definitely will shoot more flat eliminating a lot of drop at longer distances. If the deer has a clue what's going on from your direction, they can still go into launch mode(jumping the string, really squatting down to get ready to fly out of there), and still get out of the way of any arrow at any speed. I am a 388 grain, 309 fps guy. Great combo for deer,bear hogs etc. with one pin. It works very well for anything I am doing.


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## Flaustin1 (Aug 5, 2014)

*blood*



aj.hiner said:


> No u don't have a chance at killing one no matter what u shootNo No:



I remember a specific day in which I bloodied your new boat for the first time.  

I know im back to the ol indian bow this year but its gonna make meat.  Im sure of it.


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## DartonHunter101 (Aug 7, 2014)

alligood729 said:


> One other tidbit.....the 800fps could be true, but until they make a bow that shoots faster the 1125fps, a deer is capable of jumping the string. When they make a bow faster than the speed of sound, then the dropping below the arrow becomes a non factor. They can't duck what they can't hear.....that's why every bow hunter should try to get his setup as quiet as possible. If they can hear it, there is the possibility they can duck it.



I starting to believe that sound is the most important virtue of a bow. I will pick a quiet bow over a fast bow anyday.


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## Ihunt (Aug 8, 2014)

I never use a light arrow when gator hunting. Just saying.


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## The Fever (Aug 8, 2014)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I starting to believe that sound is the most important virtue of a bow. I will pick a quiet bow over a fast bow anyday.



Get the poo to post a video of his bow. Sounds like a .22 mag going off....the poor solo cup never knew what hit it however DRT....


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## chris41081 (Aug 11, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> What would hurt more a leaf blown at 60 mph or a concrete block traveling 2 mph. I'll take mass over speed.



Great analogy!


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## C Cape (Aug 16, 2014)

This is in an interesting topic for sure. Speed is definitely a good thing BUT give me a quiet bow with 425-450 gr at 285-290 any day over a 375 gr at 305. Especially shooting fixed blade heads as they don't seem to tune as easily at speeds over 290 or so. 

As far as KE goes, it is a number that sheds with every foot the arrow travels. Momentum is the number that matters the most from everything I have read while researching this. 

Another guy in here stated that you reach a number where the heavier arrow gets slower and KE goes down as well. This is true but the momentum keeps getting higher. Do some reading on it as it is pretty interesting.


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## Kris87 (Aug 16, 2014)

Mo....mentum, Mo.... Mentum, Mo....mentum.   Good post Cape.  That's all true.


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## Jim Thompson (Aug 16, 2014)

Speed is a factor, but nearly as big of a factor as some make it out to be.

Deer will "jump the string" no matter the speed of your bow and there is absolutely no rhyme or reason as to why or when.  They dont do it any more often or any less often nowadays when I am shooting a faster bow than when I was shooting slower bows.  Sometimes they will do it when they are wary and on edge and other times they will do it when they seem to be calmly feeding.  

The only thing that speed has done for me over the years is flatten my trajectory which means that my single pin now gets my arrow out there a couple more yards before fall off...thats it


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