# Women in the "Ministry"..........



## HT2 (Feb 11, 2005)

O.K. Please understand that this is a civil thread just askin' of opinions and what you think.....

I was brought up a Fundamental Baptist.......

I was also brought up that "MEN" are the head of the family, and the church.

Now, I'm not sayin' that "WOMEN" don't know anything when it pertains to running a family or even teaching the word of God....I think just the contrary....

I just see a lot of women that are leading a lot of churches and just wondered what everyone's take on it was.....

No ill intent here......

I promise....


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## Dog Hunter (Feb 11, 2005)

I don't see a problem with it.  It is about God's word, not you is delivering it.  As we are learning in our Purpose Driven Life study, it's about god not you.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 11, 2005)

Dude,
What do you do?  Sit around and think of the most controversial thing you can think of and then post it??      
To try and answer your question. I'm Catholic (which is recently an apparently dangerous thing to be around here) and as you may know Catholics do not have women as priests or deacons.  They can be Eucharistic Ministers and obviously there are several religious orders of nuns.  They do not 'head' a church though they can run schools, orphanages and many other outreach programs of the church.  There is some biblical reference to (non-biological) differences between men and women and their roles and duties.  
Personally..... I've got no issue with a woman in ANY role in ANY church.  
Perhaps not much of an answer as general observation.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## HT2 (Feb 11, 2005)

*Phil........*

Now what's wrong with this question???????

I was just askin'???????     

MODS..................

If this is "INAPPROPRIATE" then "PULL IT"!!!!!!!!!!!!!

O.K.?????????


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 11, 2005)

HT2 said:
			
		

> Now what's wrong with this question???????
> 
> I was just askin'???????
> 
> ...


It's not man I'm just yanking your chain.      For some folks though, this will be a very emotional topic (as is ANYthing related to religion).  Whether and how they choose to respond remains to be seen.   Nothing wrong with the topic IMHO.  Course some pretty mundane topics have taken some nasty turns!     I'm sure it'll be fine....  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## HT2 (Feb 11, 2005)

*Andy......*

I know you'll pull it if it needs it....  

If it goes "SOUTH" Do it!!!!!!!


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## HuntinTom (Feb 11, 2005)

*Moderator Disclaimer...*

Even posts that give "opinions" can be very volatile with such a controversial topic...  This thread obviously has the makings to be a very good discussion, and some opportunity to learn from one another, or, he possibility to become a heated and divisive thread...  So... As long as it's civil, respectful, and good for the whole, it stays...   So, post away, but any posts crossing the line will be excommunicated


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 11, 2005)

*women*

I have my convictions but I don't want to touch that with a


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## 6wheeler (Feb 11, 2005)

*The way I see it,*

it was a woman that ran down that dusty road so many years ago proclaiming, "HE is risen!". If a woman was good enough to be the first entrusted with that message, then a woman is certainly good enough to lead a church IMHO.


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## mpowell (Feb 11, 2005)

personally, i don't have a problem with it.  i have a buddy who's in the princeton seminary PHD program and he met his wife there while they were both working on their masters degrees. 

she's a part-time pastor of a methodist church in new jersey while he's working to finish his PHD.


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## Arrow3 (Feb 11, 2005)

I personally don't care one way or the other if its a man or a woman who's preaching the word of god...


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## Handgunner (Feb 11, 2005)

Arrow3, yes it did so I edited everything.  My bad!  I'm not awake yet.  

Sorry about that...


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## hntrchk29 (Feb 11, 2005)

i think anybody can be called to be anything. if God calls a woman to a leadership position then thats great. one thing i think people don't realize is that the ladies keeping the nursery are in a sense more important than the pastor. they are the leaders of the future of the church. the children base their view of church on their sunday school teachers and the extended session workers. i think they are a leader as much as anybody else and i think that is often overlooked. everybody has their place whether it be an usher, a preacher, a sunday shool teacher, or a greeter. all of them are important.     jessie


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## HuntinTom (Feb 11, 2005)

Well said Jessie...


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 11, 2005)

It doesn't matter what I think.  The only thing that matters, concerning this issue, is what God says about it.  And there is only one place that can be found to know what God says about it, and that is in His Holy Word.  I believe Scripture is very straight forward in what it says, it's not an issue of my interpretation vs your interpretation because it says what it says.  I learned a long time ago that it doesn't matter if I like the directions delineated by God's Word,  He certainly didn't ask my opinion before it was written.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 11, 2005)

David Mills said:
			
		

> I believe Scripture is very straight forward in what it says, it's not an issue of my interpretation vs your interpretation because it says what it says.


David,
Can you paste the verses?
Thanks.
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 11, 2005)

Phil,

I'm sitting at my desk at work right now and immediately after, I'm going to the Turkeyrama.  The firewall here will not let me pull up "Blue Letter Bible" or some other websites I used to be able to use during work hours.  But, I'll certainly provide Scripture when I get home later this evening.

Imagine, them wanting me to work.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 11, 2005)

Phil,

I had some info available, see the below verse.  It starts by saying "For a pastor must be a good man".  That's enough right there in itself.  Look at the number of times the phrase "he must" is used.  There's no conflict about interpretation, pretty straight forward.  

I believe God inspired men to write these things so that man could understand, just like He made salvation very simple.  Some may still want to argue and/or debate, but I will stand by what is already written.

I Timothy 3:2-7, TLB. "For a pastor must be a good *man* whose life cannot be spoken against. He must have only one wife, and he must be hard working and thoughtful, orderly, and full of good deeds. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and must be a good Bible teacher. He must not be a drinker or quarrelsome, but he must be gentle and kind, and not one who loves money. He must have a well-behaved family, with children who obey quickly and quietly. For if a man can't make his own little family behave, how can he help the whole church?


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 11, 2005)

David Mills said:
			
		

> Imagine, them wanting me to work.


I hate that!    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

I realize that this is a very sensitive topic and should be approached with care.  As Mr. Mills has already pointed out the scriptures are real plain in what they say on this topic.  I am a pastor of a Baptist Church and even though i do not believe women should hold the office of pastor or deacon it would be impossible for me to preach without the prayers and support of the women in my congregation.  The one thing we often overlook in church is that we are the body of Christ and it takes all the parts to function effectively.  IMHO too much emphasis is placed on positions and titles in the Church.  I realize they are neccesary but so is the little quite lady on the pugh praying for the ones with the titles.  I was once told by an old preacher that God doesn't need extraordinary people...he just needs ordinary people to do extraordinary things with.  Without the women.......without the children.....without the men.....without the lost......without the saved....there would be no one for us pastors to preach to.......so see you are important just filling your place in Gods house.  I hope I have offended no one and I hope God blesses you all.  Just remember the most important thing is knowing Jesus Christ as savior.  All of these other issues will be resolved when we enter into Heaven.


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## dutchman (Feb 11, 2005)

I was raised Southern Baptist and will likely die Southern Baptist, or else be one at the rapture. So, you could guess what I believe about women pastors. But...

...right after my wife and I got married, we became members of a Young Married Couples Sunday School Class at our church. The teachers of that class (at the time, the only co-ed class in the church) were an "older" married couple. The wife was, by far, the better teacher. Now, some people would have a problem with a woman teaching a class that was attended by men. But, I'm here to tell you that the Spiritual Gift of Teaching is not limited to males!

The number one reason, IMO, that you see so many women in different leadership roles in churches today is that the men do not, for whatever reason, step up to do God's work! I'd hate to have the Lord say to me, when we meet by and by, that He had a job for me, but wound up giving it to a woman (or anybody else) because I wouldn't do it.

That little bumping noise you just heard was me jumping down from off my soapbox.


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

Hey Dutchman....I totally agree with you on that one.....some of the best Sunday School and Bible School teachers I ever had were women.  I can honestly say now that without women stepping up there would neither of the previous two I just mentioned happening at the church I pastor.  As a matter of fact my wife has probably quitely taught my children more about Jesus than I have....oops....I just fell off my soapbox


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 11, 2005)

I totally agree that we are ALL called to do different things because as the Preacher in the above comments stated, it takes many functions to make the body whole.  It seems to me that Ephesians that speaks extensively about this when addressing spiritual gifts. (Help me out Preacher)

Women in our church serve in critical positions that we could not function properly without.  I wish many of the men would step up as quickly as the women do when things need to get done.


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## Keith48 (Feb 11, 2005)

What about the book of Joel where it says, "Your sons and your daughters will prophecy?" Last I checked, daughters referred to females. 

Also, some of the best physical feeding I receive (meals) come from women. They can feed spiritually as well. If you want to get on a legalistic debate on 1Tim 3:2, we can carry that to many other scriptures as well that would preclude women from doing anything at church - including being a Sunday school teacher or even saying a single word in church (1 Cor 14:34-35); that is, if you want to be legalistic. Are women allowed to talk at your church? If they are, then they should be allowed to preach, as well. Otherwise, you run the risk of being a - GASP - hypocrite. 

The Bible does not assign rigid social or church "roles" to men and women, but it does place headship and authority in husbands as an abiding principal. This in no way precludes a woman from being a spiritual leader. But you are guys are right that we need more Godly men to step and do the right thing as spiritual leaders.


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

David you are exactly right.  The Bible teaches us that there is a diversity of gifts among believers.  Just because something does not go along with the way we were raised or taught doesn't mean that God hasn't blessed someone else with the gift.  Through the blessing of being able to go on several mission trips I really had my eyes opened to the way different people worship.  I was raised southern Baptist right here in the N. Ga. hills so I always wore blinders to any other way.  Gods children are Gods children everywhere and I thank him for everyone of them.


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

Let me ask all of you this ?.  Do you have to hold the title of Pastor or Preacher to preach?  maybe i should have started another thread.....if so i'm sorry


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 11, 2005)

Keith,

There has been a lot of compromising that I sometime struggle with.  Some of these things I have asked about, some I have heard lessons on.  Some of it has been justified by applying a historical perspective on it.  One example is the church in Corinth.  Corinth was, at the time, a pretty sinful place to live and one of the major problems was prostitution.  Some of the "rules" as written in First Corinthians was because of these problems in that area.  I don't remember all the specifics concerning the history, but it was an interesting study that made sense.

I will respectfully disagree somewhat concerning: 





> The Bible does not assign rigid social or church "roles" to men and women


The assignment of pastors and deacons as men for may seem rigid to many.  I believe God's call to obedience is rigid, and rightfully so, He deserves it.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 11, 2005)

Help me out again Preacher, but the Bible states somewhere that we are all called to preach.


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## hntrchk29 (Feb 11, 2005)

in 2timothy 2 it says that women should learn in quietness and full submisson, should not teach, and should be silent.

in luke 1 elizabeth proclaims her praises in a loud voice.

in 1cor 14 it says that women should remain silent in church. if they have a question they must ask their husbands once in the home where the voice will not be heard.

in titus 2  it says that the women should teach what is good

am i supposed to sit silently or shout in a loud voice?

jessie


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

That's correct David.  The word preach in dictionary states "to urge acceptance of or compliance" so when any of us testify of the saving grace of our Savior we are essentially preaching.  The samaritan woman at the well went back into town after her encounter with Jesus and told the people to come see a man who told me all things that I ever did.....by the definition of preach she was preaching.  And because of her many more were saved.


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## dutchman (Feb 11, 2005)

Preacher2671 said:
			
		

> The samaritan woman at the well went back into town after her encounter with Jesus and told the people to come see a man who told me all things that I ever did.....by the definition of preach she was preaching.  And because of her many more were saved.



How many of us would have been guilty of stiffling the Samaritan woman and thereby, preventing many more from being saved? Far be it from me to ever be guilty of quenching the Holy Spirit.

Great point Preacher!


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 11, 2005)

hntrchk29 said:
			
		

> am i supposed to sit silently or shout in a loud voice?
> jessie


Preach on Jessie preach on!...   
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## Woody's Janitor (Feb 11, 2005)

All I will say is, my church had a female pastor and it almost tore the church apart. HuntinTom knows who she is. At first, I welcomed her with an open mind, but I was very happy to see her go. One thing about having her was, you learned about every woman in the Bible.


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

Jessie....i'm no expert but here's my take.  We can teach in so many different ways.  I believe Paul was refering to the doctrine being taught in the Church.  Remember the gospel at that time was in its infant stage and it was very delicate as to how it was taught and handled.  Even as a Pastor there would be somethings you wouldn't want me teaching your daughter......better left to you as a woman.  as far as shouting in worship I hope and pray that all led by the Holy Spirit to shout would do so.  I would welcome any spirit filled shouting  in our church.


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## feathersnantlers (Feb 11, 2005)

*It explained to me...*

It was explained to me that women are not to be "ordained" but can preach, and hold position's just not in charge of the overall church. 

We have a woman leads the praise teams and the singing in church. We had several members leave when this happened b/c she is a woman. But she has never been ordained.


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## Zack attack (Feb 11, 2005)

*Read the Bible!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  !!!!!!!*

The Bible is very clear on this matter, open it up and read it. 1st Timothy 2:11-15 is one example. A women should not teach a man biblically. Titus is an awesome book on this matter. I go to school with awesome women of God who are studying to go into the ministry. They are studying to be counselors, christian educators, women ministry, childrens ministry,music ministry,  and even some being youth ministry. These women do understand there role Biblically. A women is not to be a pastor, this is not a sexist priciple but a Biblical principle. The sad part is that men do not step up to there role in the church and then the women feel the responcibility to step up. I could wright pages on this but i will stop.


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

Here's something to think about.....I once preached in a week long revival in a small very rural church in Jamaica.  The church had zero grown male members or attendees.  They had some very very dedicted women who led the church.  The pastor of the church also pastored 2 other churches.  When he was unavailable they would just have singing and scripture reading.  Let us hope and pray we men never put our women in this situation.  There were plenty of men around that church just none interested in Jesus.  God still blessed the efforts of this church....that week I was able to witness 15 souls being saved.


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## Zack attack (Feb 11, 2005)

*Thats interesting*

My mentor and I feel led to do missions in Jamaica this summer. But the church that we are going to has a women pastor named Jacklyn Coley. It is a very common problem in Jamaica.


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## PWalls (Feb 11, 2005)

I will echo others here and say I have to go with the Bible here. Deacons and Pastors are to be men. There are plenty of roles in the church that women can fill, just not those two. Our church has sunday school teachers that are women for the younger childrens class that do a wonderful job. We also have a women music minister that seems to have a perfect knack for picking out just the right song to speak to my heart every worship service. I don't view this issue as sexist or feminist. To me it is clearly written in the Bible.


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## feathersnantlers (Feb 11, 2005)

*Zack I am confused*

You say "I go to school with awesome women of God who are studying to go into the ministry. They are studying to be counselors, christian educators, women ministry, childrens ministry,music ministry, and even some being youth ministry" but then you say "These women do understand there role Biblically. A women is not to be a pastor, this is not a sexist priciple but a Biblical principle. "

Are these not pastors, "counselors, christian educators, women ministry, childrens ministry,music ministry, and even some being youth ministry"?

This might me off topic but what is a Preacher vs. Pastor vs. Minister?

To me they're all the same.


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## Preacher2671 (Feb 11, 2005)

feathersnantlers....in most cases a Deacon or Pastor is a position that requires one to be ordained and the others do not.....at least that is the way most Baptist do it.


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## Zack attack (Feb 11, 2005)

feathersnantlers said:
			
		

> You say "I go to school with awesome women of God who are studying to go into the ministry. They are studying to be counselors, christian educators, women ministry, childrens ministry,music ministry, and even some being youth ministry" but then you say "These women do understand there role Biblically. A women is not to be a pastor, this is not a sexist priciple but a Biblical principle. "
> 
> Are these not pastors, "counselors, christian educators, women ministry, childrens ministry,music ministry, and even some being youth ministry"?
> 
> ...



I did not finish my thought, that is why it is confusing. They study so that they can help their husbands do ministry (under him of course) . If you read Titus 2 it teaches that women are to teach the younger women (womens ministry). But with out a doubt they are not to be "Senior pastors"


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## Georgiaastro (Feb 11, 2005)

*Preacher2671*

That's what was surprising to me when I went to Jamaica a few weeks back. That there were so many women in control in the church. I'm not sure which church you preached at 2671 but we attended Phillippo Baptist and most of the deacons were women. We also attended another church one day and most of the deacons there were women.  

Larry


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## bruceg (Feb 11, 2005)

Think I'll have to call my mom and ask. She's retiring this year. Served as a part-time ordained minister in the Presbyterian church, and now in the Methodist church. Course, that's up near Utica New York, and you know how us Yankees are, what with The New Yankee Testament and all.


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## blindhog (Feb 11, 2005)

You can operate in error and still be saved.

The Word of Truth is not changed even though it is "taught" by one in error, and can accomplish God's purpose.

But error is error.

 God desires obedience above sacrifice.

God is plain in His instruction on the role a woman is to have in the assembly.

Plain scripture is to be the building block on the road to interpret the "not so plain" scripture.

Scripture does not negate other scripture.

A woman proclaiming the gospel to the un-saved (a man) is fine outside of an official assembly.
The one who she preaches to is yet unsaved, and not a member of the Body of Christ, so she hasn't stepped out of the Lord's bounds, by ursurping authority over a man in the assembly.


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## Al33 (Feb 12, 2005)

As I have read and studied the Word, I have been convicted to believe that women are to be to the Church what they are called to be to the family. The male is called to be head of his family.

I think many are getting Tim's question confused with teaching or other types of ministry, not leading a church as a pastor. Example: Leadership role.

I am confident there are many women who can or could do a great job of leadership while pastoring a church, however, from what I gather from reading the Word this is not what God desires. I could be wrong, but I simply do not see it any other way. Having said that, it only seems scripturally appropriate that God desires obedience over service or works. I then must ask myself when confronted with this issue, is the preacher lady being obedient to the Word? Believing she is not, I would have a hard time listening to her sermon.

I am certain many will disagree with my opinion or interpretation of the Word, but hey, many churches are putting people into pastoral positions we once could not have imagined.

Al


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Feb 12, 2005)

Al,

There ain't nuthin wrong with your assessment.


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## Buckbuster (Feb 12, 2005)

Al is right, he said it in the right way.  As for what I know I could not sit  in a church with a woman preaching. Nothing wrong with women, I don't think women should be in a position of authority in a church. That is my convictions and what I get out of the Bible. 1 corinthians 14: 33,35


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## Ramey Jackson (Feb 13, 2005)

You guys blow me away (respectfully). I was raised southern baptist. However, as time has gone on and as I have looked at  RELIGION objectively...my views have changed regarding this issue. I heard an incredible sermon from a guest BLACK WOMAN PREACHER this morning in church. ( Does that make some of you guys sick?) I'm sure it does...However, my wife and I walked away feeling blessed to hear the word of god from a different perspective...a black woman. I will say, it was the first for me...But she spoke the truth...straight from the Bible. Gods words were just as clear coming from her mouth as any man that I've heard. 

I'm not a preacher nor am i a decon in the church. I'm just a christian that was saved by the blood of the lamb. I thank GOD everyday for opening my eyes and viewing RELIGON more objectively!


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## feathersnantlers (Feb 14, 2005)

*Zack thanks that sorted it out.*

I appreciate you coming back and finishing your statement. It all makes sense now.


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## Kansashunter (Feb 16, 2005)

I don't know for sure. I know what I have read from the Bible. And the Bible plainly states a woman should not. But I have heard some great Woman Preachers preach. I personally don't have a problem. People have always used scripture this way or that way to prove their point. I have heard the same scripture explain two totally different ways before. So I have come to this conclusion. *God will not let his word die period. *If he so chooses to have a woman spread his word he will. You may ask why???

*BECAUSE HE WANTS TO. I don't need any scripture to prove that. *


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## reylamb (Feb 16, 2005)

We have to seperate the principle of teaching and holding the office of pastor or deacon.

It is clear, when we view Scriptures, that women are not to hold the office of deacon/pastor/priest.  We are clearly told in order to hold that office one must be "the husband of one wife."  

Also, we are told that woman are to remain silent.  Does that mean that they can not share the Word, teach, or rejoice?  When one views that within the context of how Timothy was taught, the obvious answer is no.  Timothy was Taught by his mother, not a man.  How then do we justify women remaining silent?  The obvious answer is that they are not to hold leadership positions.

Again, we must look further into Scriptures for the complete answer.  Christ, a man, is the head of the Church.  If we follow that example, a man must be the leader of the local body of believers.  

The similarities between the institute of marriage and the church or intertwined.  The man is to be the head of the church as the man is to be the head of the family.

As I said above though, it does not limit women from participating or working, or even teaching classes, it only limits them from being in positions of leadership within the local body.


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