# Any Preterists in here?



## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 14, 2019)

I see comments here and there in these threads that indicate that some may be Preterists?   Whether Full or Partial....not sure.     Who believes that Jesus returned in 70AD or that prophecy was completely fulfilled in 70AD?


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## Spineyman (Feb 14, 2019)

Just curious why you ask?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2019)

I'm not a Preterist but I do see something happening in 70AD. Some type of a return. The temple being destroyed.

Reading the gospel accounts, the return sounded eminent. The destruction of Jerusalem in the gospel accounts sounded physical. The warnings of fleeing to the mountains, etc. 

I've never been able to see the physical end description changing in the middle of scripture to morph into the Church if this is all about a future event. 
Something just don't quite jive or add up. The line is too squiggly.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2019)

Maybe there is more than one "it is finished."


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 15, 2019)

If you talk to a preterist, you'll soon find that they are the king (or queen) of making everything the prophets said, and Jesus said, "allegories".   "not really meaning what He said" or that it "had some spiritual meaning".    No doubt 70AD was a significant year, but to say that all prophecy was fulfilled then is, IMO, heretical, and something that wasn't taught at all until like the 18th century I believe.     Preterists, at least full preterists, make even our long hoped for resurrection only a spiritual thing.    They will also tell you that the long hoped for kingdom of Christ is now here....     look around you....and enjoy the perfect kingdom that has been prophesied for millennia


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## Spineyman (Feb 16, 2019)

Bander, please tell us what you believe? Which prophecies do you believe are still going to happen, future tense.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 17, 2019)

Spiney, something tells me that I believe just like you do, and most others on here.   Saved by faith in Jesus, but obey Him from a heart that has been circumcized.   I believe what the angel said when Jesus ascended, that He will come exactly as he left, physically and with others watching.   I believe He will stand on the Mount of Olives and it will split.    I believe there will be a resurrection of the righteous at his appearing (Matthew 24 and I Cor 15 and Dan 12)


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## Spineyman (Feb 17, 2019)

Here is what I believe and I am a partial preterist. I do believe that Jesus will split the Eastern Sky at the end of Human History, not a second sooner. I do not believe in the rapture, as in being delivered from anything. I do believe we will one day be caught up together in the air! There will indeed be a resurrection of the body one day!

*The Nicene Creed*​
I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.​And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.​Who, for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.​And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.​And I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.​
*Note*:  The word "catholic" with a lower case 'c' does not mean the Roman Catholic Church, but the universal Christian Church as a whole.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 17, 2019)

I also do not believe in what most call the 'pre trib' rapture...but believe what the Lord said...that his disciples would be raised up "at the last day".    I believe we will be protected in His wrath like the Hebrews were in Egypt, and Noah and his family were protected in the flood, and Lot was protected in Sodom.   Not being "appointed to wrath" does not mean God has to take us to heaven to protect us.   

I believe that the resurrection of the righteous is the achilles heel to the full preterist view.    Jesus was resurrected bodily, having flesh and ate food.    We, too, look forward to that same type of resurrection....when we will be like Him.


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## Spineyman (Feb 17, 2019)

Here it is to me in a nut shell.

* Revelation 1  *

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—*things which must shortly take place.* And He sent and signified _it_ by His angel to His servant John,  2 who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw.  3 Blessed _is_ he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time _is_ near.

This was written to a specific people at a specific time for a specific reason. Now when you are talking to someone in person you would not say shortly if indeed it was thousands of years off. In another place it clearly says that this generation shall not pass until all these things have taken place.

Then you have Hebrews 1 

* Hebrews 1  *
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke *in time past to the fathers by the prophets,*  2 has *in these last days spoken* *to us by His Son*, *whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;*  3 who being the brightness of _His_ glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,  4 having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

So His final Word was Jesus, there is no other prophecy.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 17, 2019)

ah...ok.    

Did the new covenant begin at the cross, or did it wait another 40 years for the destruction of the temple?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 17, 2019)

Do you believe that the world has only continued to get better since 70AD?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> If you talk to a preterist, you'll soon find that they are the king (or queen) of making everything the prophets said, and Jesus said, "allegories".   "not really meaning what He said" or that it "had some spiritual meaning".    No doubt 70AD was a significant year, but to say that all prophecy was fulfilled then is, IMO, heretical, and something that wasn't taught at all until like the 18th century I believe.     Preterists, at least full preterists, make even our long hoped for resurrection only a spiritual thing.    They will also tell you that the long hoped for kingdom of Christ is now here....     look around you....and enjoy the perfect kingdom that has been prophesied for millennia



Yet many Futurist believe the resurrection will be spiritual. I'm thinking physical. The confusing part is where does one go when they die a physical death? The interim between physical death the the physical/spiritual resurrection?

You can't wait in Heaven as that's the same as a spiritual resurrection.


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## Spineyman (Feb 17, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet many Futurist believe the resurrection will be spiritual. I'm thinking physical. The confusing part is where does one go when they die a physical death? The interim between physical death the the physical/spiritual resurrection?
> 
> You can't wait in Heaven as that's the same as a spiritual resurrection.


 2 Corinthians 5:1-8  
*Assurance of the Resurrection*
5 For we know that if our earthly house, _this_ tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.  2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,  3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.  4 For we who are in _this_ tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.  5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing _is_ God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So _we are_ always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.  7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.  8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


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## Spineyman (Feb 17, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Do you believe that the world has only continued to get better since 70AD?



1 Corinthians 15:25
For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.

Hebrews 1:13
Yet to which of the angels did God ever say: "Sit at My right hand until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet"?

Hebrews 10:13
Since that time, He waits for His enemies to be made a footstool for His feet,


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> 2 Corinthians 5:1-8
> *Assurance of the Resurrection*
> 5 For we know that if our earthly house, _this_ tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.  2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven,  3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked.  4 For we who are in _this_ tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life.  5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing _is_ God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
> 
> 6 So _we are_ always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.  7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.  8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.



That sounds like a spiritual resurrection description. Like we must shed our "tent" to be present with the Lord. That if we are at home in this body, we are absent from the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 17, 2019)

Jesus "became" flesh. That pre-existing part of the Godhead became flesh. That part of God that may be the image we were made in. 
Jesus did arise physically and ascended physically. Maybe from flesh and blood to flesh and bone but still physical.

So where is this physical place that Jesus now resides? He went there physically yet we can go there spiritually? 

Something don't jive. He is there physically with his spiritual Father and spiritual brothers and spiritual angels?


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## Spineyman (Feb 18, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> That sounds like a spiritual resurrection description. Like we must shed our "tent" to be present with the Lord. That if we are at home in this body, we are absent from the Lord.


That simply means when you are alive here on earth you are in your tent(physical body). When you die the Bible says your body dies but your spirit and soul live on. You pass from life to life, there is no death  for those who have been washed in the blood of the Lamb. We are present with the Lord and our body one day will be resurrected also. We will be clothed with a resurrected, glorified body.


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## Spineyman (Feb 18, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus "became" flesh. That pre-existing part of the Godhead became flesh. That part of God that may be the image we were made in.
> Jesus did arise physically and ascended physically. Maybe from flesh and blood to flesh and bone but still physical.
> 
> So where is this physical place that Jesus now resides? He went there physically yet we can go there spiritually?
> ...


We are made in God's image because we too have a spirit. Jesus now resides at the Fathers right hand in Heaven, and we too will be there with Him also in that great and glorious day!


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> We are made in God's image because we too have a spirit. Jesus now resides at the Fathers right hand in Heaven, and we too will be there with Him also in that great and glorious day!



That's not very Preterist at all then. You did say you aren't a full Preterist. I don't think they believe in a future physical resurrection.

They and many Futurist believe Jesus parked his physical tent at Heaven's gate and his Spiritual entity of the Godhead rejoined with the Father and Holy Spirit.

I think they see the whole of Heaven as being spiritual. Meaning you can't reside there as a physical being.

When you think about it, if God is spiritual, and we go to Heaven as spirits when we die physically? Then that is a type of spiritual resurrection.

Why would we need to return for a physical body? If, in fact, we are already enjoying our presence with God/Jesus in heaven?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2019)

I think it all depends on where and what Jesus is now. The right hand of God, the allegories.

Is Jesus literally at the right hand of God as a resurrected human deity or did he return to the spirit that he was before he became a human?

However he is, we will become like him. When we finally see him as he is.

Weird to think Jesus is the only physical entity in Heaven right now and all of God's other human children are there as spirits.

That and the fact that God is a spirit as well. Will we see God and Jesus or just Jesus as God?


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## Spineyman (Feb 18, 2019)

1 Corinthians 15:52-54

Where, O Death, is Your Victory?
…52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.   54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…

We will not be like we are now. We will be raised to newness of life. We will throw this tent away and put on a heavenly body!


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## Spineyman (Feb 18, 2019)

John 14:1-4 

14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.  2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if _it were_ not _so,_ I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, _there_ you may be also.  4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:52-54
> 
> Where, O Death, is Your Victory?
> …52 in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53 For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.   54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”…
> ...



Where do we wait for this heavenly body? The space between physical death and the resurrection?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> John 14:1-4
> 
> 14 “Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.  2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if _it were_ not _so,_ I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.  3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, _there_ you may be also.  4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”



Again, Jesus has gone to prepare a place in his Father's house for us. He will personally come again to so that we may go where he is at.

If John 14:1-4 is the one time event of a future resurrection, where do we wait for this event? 

It does almost sound like one can't go to heaven in the "tent" we are in now. That we also must wait for Jesus to come and get us. Like that return is very important. We need that future resurrection. We yearn for Christ's return. We wait for Christ's return. 
We wait for our new "tent."


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2019)

1 Corinthians 15:23-25
But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.   25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 

1 Corinthians 15:42
So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 19, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Corinthians 15:23-25
> But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him. 24Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power.   25For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:42
> So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable.



In verse 24, there's another mistranslation of the Greek.   Here, Paul is listing out the 3 resurrections;  1st - Jesus Himself as the fulfillment of the FirstFruits feast  2nd -  We who belong to Him at His coming   3rd "Then the end,..." there's the resurrection of the rest of the dead at the end of the millennium.    In verse 24, the comma should come after the word 'end', and the words "will come" are inserted by the translators.  (Your KJV bible will show you that those words are in italics, meaning they were inserted)    Verse 24 should read, "Then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father....."


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> In verse 24, there's another mistranslation of the Greek.   Here, Paul is listing out the 3 resurrections;  1st - Jesus Himself as the fulfillment of the FirstFruits feast  2nd -  We who belong to Him at His coming   3rd "Then the end,..." there's the resurrection of the rest of the dead at the end of the millennium.    In verse 24, the comma should come after the word 'end', and the words "will come" are inserted by the translators.  (Your KJV bible will show you that those words are in italics, meaning they were inserted)    Verse 24 should read, "Then the end, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father....."



I can see that, Jesus' resurrection is past tense and the other two are in the future.

Does scripture tells us where we wait for those final two? If we who belong to Him can't resurrect until He returns?

Even the rest of the dead who aren't his. All waiting somewhere for their final judgement.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 19, 2019)

much debate about where we are when we die.    some scripture indicate we will be "present with the Lord", others indicate we are sleeping in the grave.    doubt you'll get a definitive answer to that one   lol


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## Spineyman (Feb 20, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see that, Jesus' resurrection is past tense and the other two are in the future.
> 
> Does scripture tells us where we wait for those final two? If we who belong to Him can't resurrect until He returns?
> 
> Even the rest of the dead who aren't his. All waiting somewhere for their final judgement.


It has not been given to us definitively . So anything would at best be speculation. But Paul says to be absent from the body I to be present with the Lord. We also know that we will no longer be controlled by time. So no matter where we wait. I am perfectly fine with it to just be in the presence of the Lord, until whenever.  This I do know,  
 Deuteronomy 29:29  

29 “The secret _things belong_ to the Lord our God, but those _things which are_ revealed _belong_ to us and to our children forever, that _we_ may do all the words of this law.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2019)

Spineyman said:


> It has not been given to us definitively . So anything would at best be speculation. But Paul says to be absent from the body I to be present with the Lord. We also know that we will no longer be controlled by time. So no matter where we wait. I am perfectly fine with it to just be in the presence of the Lord, until whenever.  This I do know,
> Deuteronomy 29:29
> 
> 29 “The secret _things belong_ to the Lord our God, but those _things which are_ revealed _belong_ to us and to our children forever, that _we_ may do all the words of this law.



I would agree. The confusing part that Full Preterist say takes care of that is a Spiritual resurrection at our physical death. I would agree, why come back for a body if we are already in Heaven as spirits?


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## Spineyman (Feb 20, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree. The confusing part that Full Preterist say takes care of that is a Spiritual resurrection at our physical death. I would agree, why come back for a body if we are already in Heaven as spirits?


Hey don't complain, you are getting a twofer!


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## hobbs27 (Mar 16, 2019)

A lot of the error in futurist belief begins with failing to consider audience relevance.

So many times people read scripture and say Jesus said to us...or the bible tells us..well most of the time it doesnt.

Also, futurist claim preterist spiritualize scripture or they make it all in metaphors , while they clearly spiritualize or completely ignore the very literal time statements that clearly place His return in the first century.

Finally...luke 21 clearly states that the destruction of the temple would be when all things written would be fulfilled.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 16, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> A lot of the error in futurist belief begins with failing to consider audience relevance.
> 
> So many times people read scripture and say Jesus said to us...or the bible tells us..well most of the time it doesnt.
> 
> ...



Good point. It's spiritual when we want it to be and/or it's physical when we want it to be.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 16, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Good point. It's spiritual when we want it to be and/or it's physical when we want it to be.


That's not the way it should work either. We need to identify the language. It's impossible to keep a literal rigid interpretation of apocalyptic language and come out with the true meaning. We have several old testament examples to look at , and compare to. We certainly aren't going to find true meaning looking at scripture through our modern western eyes.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 17, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> If you talk to a preterist, you'll soon find that they are the king (or queen) of making everything the prophets said, and Jesus said, "allegories".   "not really meaning what He said" or that it "had some spiritual meaning".    No doubt 70AD was a significant year, but to say that all prophecy was fulfilled then is, IMO, heretical, and something that wasn't taught at all until like the 18th century I believe.     Preterists, at least full preterists, make even our long hoped for resurrection only a spiritual thing.    They will also tell you that the long hoped for kingdom of Christ





BANDERSNATCH said:


> No doubt 70AD was a significant year, but to say that all prophecy was fulfilled then is, IMO, heretical



Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 17, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.



That one sounds physical and literal. Like a warning to flee physical Israel and to hide in the mountains for a physical battle.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 17, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> That one sounds physical and literal. Like a warning to flea physical Israel and to hide in the mountains for a physical battle.


It was


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 20, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> That one sounds physical and literal. Like a warning to flee physical Israel and to hide in the mountains for a physical battle.



What armies was Jerusalem surrounded by in 70AD?   Also, Jesus here is alluding to a prophecy in Zech 14 where it also says that Jerusalem, after the "armies" are destroyed will dwell in peace and safety forever.   Are the inhabitants of Jerusalem dwelling in safety?    

For the full preterist:   Do you still evangelize?   Take communion?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> What armies was Jerusalem surrounded by in 70AD?   Also, Jesus here is alluding to a prophecy in Zech 14 where it also says that Jerusalem, after the "armies" are destroyed will dwell in peace and safety forever.   Are the inhabitants of Jerusalem dwelling in safety?
> 
> For the full preterist:   Do you still evangelize?   Take communion?


I think the Romans. I'm not saying it was the end of "all things" but it was a description of a soon to be event. Maybe it describes both, with one a mirror of a future event.

Also , how or where will Israel dwell in peace and safety forever? Aren't there passages that after the restoration the pastures will be green and full of animals or something like that?

To me it sounds like there will be a future physical restoration. Everything will be green and great again. Physically.

Now the question is, how do we balance the physical salvation with the spiritual salvation verses? How do we balance the physical restoration with the spiritual verses?

Sometimes they read like they are a physical salvation, such as Israel, from a physical wrath that is coming, and then a physical restoration.

Other times it reads like everything is spiritual. Maybe one is a shadow of the other.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 20, 2019)

It seems to me that everything should be physical or everthing should be spiritual at some point. I think that is one thing Preterism tries to answer.
That now everything is spiritual when we die a physical death. That we go directly to Heaven as spirits never to return to the earth. That Jesus is now back to the spirit part of God that he was before he became a man. That he returned to the Trinity in the spirit form that he once was.

I don't think they believe Jesus is at the right hand of God in a physical resurrected body.

Preterism makes everything spiritual. They think that Christ's resurrection was the only human to have a physical resurrection and his was just to show that he had defeated death. They somehow even make his resurrection spiritual instead of physical.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 20, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> What armies was Jerusalem surrounded by in 70AD?   Also, Jesus here is alluding to a prophecy in Zech 14 where it also says that Jerusalem, after the "armies" are destroyed will dwell in peace and safety forever.   Are the inhabitants of Jerusalem dwelling in safety?
> 
> For the full preterist:   Do you still evangelize?   Take communion?



 The Roman army surrounded Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years starting in AD66 ending with the destruction of the temple in AD 70.

Do I take communion? I have, and I would again. Do I evangelize..Of course.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 20, 2019)

A simple understanding is, AD 70 was the end of the age ie. Old covenant age that had been made void at the cross, but was still in existence and about to vanish when the author penned Hebrews 8:13.

All prophesies were fulfilled in Gods judging of Apostate Jews..Jerusalem was left desolate.  And the New Covenant church age has no end. Ephesians 3:21.

Jesus completed the task He come to do, and in the first century when He said it would be done.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> A simple understanding is, AD 70 was the end of the age ie. Old covenant age that had been made void at the cross, but was still in existence and about to vanish when the author penned Hebrews 8:13.
> 
> All prophesies were fulfilled in Gods judging of Apostate Jews..Jerusalem was left desolate.  And the New Covenant church age has no end. Ephesians 3:21.
> 
> Jesus completed the task He come to do, and in the first century when He said it would be done.



So, in your opinion, the new covenant started in 70AD, not when Christ was crucified?   Was there a 40 year lag?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> It seems to me that everything should be physical or everthing should be spiritual at some point. I think that is one thing Preterism tries to answer.
> That now everything is spiritual when we die a physical death. That we go directly to Heaven as spirits never to return to the earth. That Jesus is now back to the spirit part of God that he was before he became a man. That he returned to the Trinity in the spirit form that he once was.
> 
> I don't think they believe Jesus is at the right hand of God in a physical resurrected body.
> ...



I don't think you can lump all Preterists  into one group.    There are big differences between Full and Partial Preterists, although they are also brothers and sisters in Christ.    IMO, believing that all prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD or not is not a salvation issue....no different that being Pre or Post-Trib.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> A simple understanding is, AD 70 was the end of the age ie. Old covenant age that had been made void at the cross, but was still in existence and about to vanish when the author penned Hebrews 8:13.
> 
> All prophesies were fulfilled in Gods judging of Apostate Jews..Jerusalem was left desolate.  And the New Covenant church age has no end. Ephesians 3:21.
> 
> Jesus completed the task He come to do, and in the first century when He said it would be done.



Also, if you read Hebrews 6, 7, and 8, and remove the added words (which are in italics) "covenant", you'll see that it is clearly talking about the priesthood coming to an end.    Hebrews 8:8..."finding fault with THEM"....not the covenant, but with men....priests.   As you know, the priesthood was very corrupt during Christ's time.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, in your opinion, the new covenant started in 70AD, not when Christ was crucified?   Was there a 40 year lag?



 No, it began with Christs earthly ministry, but there were two co existing covenants until AD 70. For 40 years Jesus words, " The Gospel" led those in bondage of the old covenant law out of it, and into the Liberty in Christ...New Covenant.  AD 70 was the vindication of the saints, it was the end spoken of in all prophesies. 

The Harlot of Revelation was no doubt mystery Babylon, the great city, the land beast...old covenant Jerusalem,  and she rode on the sea beast, Rome.
 God was calling His people out of her, with the Gospel, and the giving of the Holy Spirit to gentiles. He was sifting the wheat from the tares, and in AD70 he burned that chaff.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Also, if you read Hebrews 6, 7, and 8, and remove the added words (which are in italics) "covenant", you'll see that it is clearly talking about the priesthood coming to an end.    Hebrews 8:8..."finding fault with THEM"....not the covenant, but with men....priests.   As you know, the priesthood was very corrupt during Christ's time.


The restoration of all things.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2019)

How do we look at Jerusalem/Israel dwelling in peace forever? Is that physical or spiritual? Is it the nation with Gentiles grafted in or the Church?

Here is the passage I was thinking of earlier in the discussion of "dwelling in peace and safety forever."

Jeremiah 23:3-8 
"Then I Myself will gather the remnant of My flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and bring them back to their pasture, and they will be fruitful and multiply. "I will also raise up shepherds over them and they will tend them; and they will not be afraid any longer, nor be terrified, nor will any be missing," declares the LORD. "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch; And He will reign as king and act wisely And do justice and righteousness in the land. "Therefore behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when they will no longer say, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up the sons of Israel from the land of Egypt,' but, 'As the LORD lives, who brought up and led back the descendants of the household of Israel from the north land and from all the countries where I had driven them.' Then they will live on their own soil." 

Has this already happened? It does sound like Jews being gathered. Perhaps the scattered Jews are Gentiles.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2019)

A lot of the passages sound like Israel being united. The division of Israel being restored. 

Amos 9:14-15 
"Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.

I know there are passages concerning Israel being a flock grazing in all of the area after the restoration. I thought I recalled a literal verse where the actual pastures with literal sheep would be restored as well. Perhaps it was concerning Israel as the sheep and Jesus as their Shepherd.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> No, it began with Christs earthly ministry, but there were two co existing covenants until AD 70. For 40 years Jesus words, " The Gospel" led those in bondage of the old covenant law out of it, and into the Liberty in Christ...New Covenant.  AD 70 was the vindication of the saints, it was the end spoken of in all prophesies.
> 
> The Harlot of Revelation was no doubt mystery Babylon, the great city, the land beast...old covenant Jerusalem,  and she rode on the sea beast, Rome.
> God was calling His people out of her, with the Gospel, and the giving of the Holy Spirit to gentiles. He was sifting the wheat from the tares, and in AD70 he burned that chaff.



Jesus Himself said that He did not do away with the Law, and that those who kept the Law would be great in heaven.   Matthew 5:17-19      But you're saying Jesus abolished the Law????


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> A lot of the passages sound like Israel being united. The division of Israel being restored.
> 
> Amos 9:14-15
> "Also I will restore the captivity of My people Israel, And they will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them; They will also plant vineyards and drink their wine, And make gardens and eat their fruit. "I will also plant them on their land, And they will not again be rooted out from their land Which I have given them," Says the LORD your God.
> ...



absolutely  correct, Art.    It was prophecied throughout the OT that he would once again restore the House of Israel, which He had scattered over the earth.   He has not done that yet.    Jer 31:31-33    Jesus came ONLY for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, not the house of Judah.

the House of Judah was(is) still in covenant with Him.   He only divorced the House of Israel, who He loved dearly (Hosea)


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> No, it began with Christs earthly ministry, but there were two co existing covenants until AD 70. For 40 years Jesus words, " The Gospel" led those in bondage of the old covenant law out of it, and into the Liberty in Christ...New Covenant.  AD 70 was the vindication of the saints, it was the end spoken of in all prophesies.
> 
> The Harlot of Revelation was no doubt mystery Babylon, the great city, the land beast...old covenant Jerusalem,  and she rode on the sea beast, Rome.
> God was calling His people out of her, with the Gospel, and the giving of the Holy Spirit to gentiles. He was sifting the wheat from the tares, and in AD70 he burned that chaff.



The first to be filled with the Spirit were Jews....


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

Art...there's another prophecy in the OT that has not happened yet that is significant.    Jer 23:7-8   The Lord says that when people are asked about the Exodus, they will no longer talk about how God delivered the people out of Egypt, but will talk about a much larger Exodus, where He brings people back to the land from all over the Earth where they were scattered.   Ask anyone today, even Christians, about the Exodus, and you'll hear about Moses.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The first to be filled with the Spirit were Jews....



Agreed, but not all of them. Until the end, AD 70 ,they were being called out of the Harlot. Not all of Israel was Israel, and when God was done sifting He burned the chaff.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> absolutely  correct, Art.    It was prophecied throughout the OT that he would once again restore the House of Israel, which He had scattered over the earth.   He has not done that yet.    Jer 31:31-33    Jesus came ONLY for the lost sheep of the House of Israel, not the house of Judah.
> 
> the House of Judah was(is) still in covenant with Him.   He only divorced the House of Israel, who He loved dearly (Hosea)


The Diaspora were brought into the house in Christ.  Paul going out to the gentiles was bringing in the 10 northern tribes. It is fulfilled.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

God has never once made a covenant with Gentiles....only with Israel, and it was forever.    In order for a Gentile to come into covenant with God, they have to be grafted in to Israel.    No such thing as a "spiritual" Israel, that is a manmade term.    If a Gentile wants to enter the New Jerusalem, there is no "Gentile" gate.   lol    They have to be part of one of the tribes of Israel.    Currently, there is only the tribe of Judah and it includes Benjamin.   God will regather the other 10 lost tribes, as prophecied many places.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> The Diaspora were brought into the house in Christ.  Paul going out to the gentiles was bringing in the 10 northern tribes. It is fulfilled.



The Disaspora are still scattered across the earth.   The prophecy is that they will be gathered "back to the land".    We are no living in Israel.    That land was promised to Abraham and his seed forever.....not America.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

Jer 23    
*7*  Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;

*8*  But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

No one is talking about this "Greater Exodus".    They will walk across dry rivers when they return.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The Disaspora are still scattered across the earth.   The prophecy is that they will be gathered "back to the land".    We are no living in Israel.    That land was promised to Abraham and his seed forever.....not America.



Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with _him_, that we may be also glorified together.

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

I agree not America. The Kingdom in which they were brought into..the promised land to Abraham is spiritual.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
> 
> Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with _him_, that we may be also glorified together.
> 
> ...



another Preterist "invisible" or "spiritual" fulfillment?          No offense....


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> another Preterist "invisible" or "spiritual" fulfillment?          No offense....



Doesn't bother me, scripture proves it.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
> 
> Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with _him_, that we may be also glorified together.
> 
> ...



Yet somehow there were promises made to just Israel;


Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Isaiah 14:1
For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and choose Israel once again. He will settle them on their own land. The foreigner will join them and be united with the house of Jacob.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,

Paul talks about national Israel quite a lot. Especially in Romans 9-11.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2019)

Romans 11:26-27
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

I guess it's possible this happened in 70ad. If so then Israel would have to be spiritual as godlessness still resides in Israel.

Still though there sure are a lot of verses that sound like it's physical. A physical restoration of a physical Israel.

I wonder if this physical restoration will last forever on the earth? If it is indeed physical and a future event?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2019)

Here is a good verse to think about;

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

Ellicott's Commentary;
Life from the dead.--The reconversion of the Jews will be a signal to inaugurate that reign of eternal life which will be ushered in by the resurrection from the dead. 

Romans 11 is like a prophesy of what must happen to Israel. There acceptance means life from the dead.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2019)

I'm pretty sure Paul makes a distinction between Israel and the Church. I can't see God changing his definition of Israel. Either it's always been the Church or spiritual Israel or it's always been physical Israel. 

I can accept either of those as always being but not changing from one to the other.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 21, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet somehow there were promises made to just Israel;
> 
> 
> Ephesians 2:12
> ...




Isaiah 14:1 sounds troubling to a preterist...if it were speaking of AD 70. But its not, that's speaking of the return from the Babylonian captivity in 587 BC.

I see no problem for a preterist in the other verses you listed.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Isaiah 14:1 sounds troubling to a preterist...if it were speaking of AD 70. But its not, that's speaking of the return from the Babylonian captivity in 587 BC.
> 
> I see no problem for a preterist in the other verses you listed.



The Jews returned from Babylon in 587BC...   Not the scattered Northern tribes.   the scattered tribes that were taken to Assyria in 721BC never returned to God, and were scattered throughout the world.    There are two houses.   House of Judah.  House of Israel.

Jer 31:31-33 mentions both houses in one verse, as do other verses.    In verse 33, when the kingdoms are restored, (which has not happened yet) there will only be one house again....a united House of Israel, with David as king.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The Jews returned from Babylon in 587BC...   Not the scattered Northern tribes.   the scattered tribes that were taken to Assyria in 721BC never returned to God, and were scattered throughout the world.    There are two houses.   House of Judah.  House of Israel.
> 
> Jer 31:31-33 mentions both houses in one verse, as do other verses.    In verse 33, when the kingdoms are restored, (which has not happened yet) there will only be one house again....a united House of Israel, with David as king.



They were gathered in the New covenant.  The Jews often referred to the diaspora as gentiles,  the northern tribes were scattered out around the Roman empire. They were coming together in the first churches. The church did not replace Israel, it's a continuation . The church is the kingdom promised to Abraham,  Christ is the seed as the heir of the promise.

Galatians 4:21ff shows the two Jerusalem's. The physical land being part of the old covenant is referred to as Hagar.  Her children were cast out. Sarah is referred to as the new covenant and the Jerusalem from above which is the mother of us all, ( us in Christ).

God is never taking man back into the bondage of the law or given us back to Hagar. The Christ believing Jews, along with the diaspora, the Gentiles, and the dead ones that heard His voice were all gathered together in the church which has no end . Ephesians 3:21


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

lol    I can tell you one Jew that thought there was a difference between Gentiles and the Lost Sheep of the northern tribes; Jesus.   

*5*  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

*6* *But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.*

*Also, according to Stephen, the church was at the base of Sinai...long before the alleged "birth of the church", which is another made up modern term.    Church existed long before, even in the wilderness.*

*Hagar was a symbol of trying to earn salvation through fleshly works (Abraham + Hagar)    Sarah was a symbol of salvation through faith and promise (Abraham + Sarah)    Abraham tried to bring about God's promise by doing things himself.   God's best was to get His promise through faith, though.*


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    I can tell you one Jew that thought there was a difference between Gentiles and the Lost Sheep of the northern tribes; Jesus.
> 
> *5*  These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
> 
> ...


Samaritans were of the northern tribe. It was Judah, Levi, and part of Benjamin that had not yet been divorced of the covenant.  Jerusalem was the Bride of God. Jesus came to save those of Judah. He was sifting the wheat and tares, the harvest was ready and the winnowing fork was already in His hand...the axe had been laid to the root.

Paul going out to the Gentile nations was the bringing in of the ten northern tribes.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

Also...The bible clearly identifies Hagar as the old covenant..not a symbol of trying to earn salvation.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Samaritans were of the northern tribe. It was Judah, Levi, and part of Benjamin that had not yet been divorced of the covenant.  Jerusalem was the Bride of God. Jesus came to save those of Judah. He was sifting the wheat and tares, the harvest was ready and the winnowing fork was already in His hand...the axe had been laid to the root.
> 
> Paul going out to the Gentile nations was the bringing in of the ten northern tribes.



So Jesus was wrong?    Jesus said "don't go to the Gentiles, but to the House of Israel"     Clearly a difference in the two.     The Bride of Christ is also clearly identified in Revelation and is, as you said, the New Jerusalem.   This New Jerusalem can only be entered by those associated with the tribes....no Gentile gate.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Also...The bible clearly identifies Hagar as the old covenant..not a symbol of trying to earn salvation.



I agree that it says Hagar is the old covenant, but that covenant was where men were trying to earn God's favor by works....not faith.    Symbol was probably not the best word.    better word would have been that the old Hagar covenant TYPIFIED a covenant where men were working to please God.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> They were gathered in the New covenant.  The Jews often referred to the diaspora as gentiles,  the northern tribes were scattered out around the Roman empire. They were coming together in the first churches. The church did not replace Israel, it's a continuation . The church is the kingdom promised to Abraham,  Christ is the seed as the heir of the promise.
> 
> Galatians 4:21ff shows the two Jerusalem's. The physical land being part of the old covenant is referred to as Hagar.  Her children were cast out. Sarah is referred to as the new covenant and the Jerusalem from above which is the mother of us all, ( us in Christ).
> 
> God is never taking man back into the bondage of the law or given us back to Hagar. The Christ believing Jews, along with the diaspora, the Gentiles, and the dead ones that heard His voice were all gathered together in the church which has no end . Ephesians 3:21



Then you see the "gathering" of the dispersed Jews as more of a spiritual gathering than an actual physical gathering? 

What about Romans 11? Did their acceptance bring life to the dead?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

BTW, when Judah was taken captive to Babylon, God told them how long it would be for.   Daniel understood it from the writings of Jeremiah.    70 years.   Judah returned after 70 years, with a repentant heart.     The Northern Tribes were also taken captive, circa 721BC, and were taken into Assyria.   Ezekiel 4 tells us how long the punishment was to be for....390 years.    But the Northern Tribes did not repent after the 390 years, so they were scattered AND, as the bible says, their punishment for not returning was multiplied times 7!    That puts the punishment of the Northern Kingdom ending around 2009AD.    Around 2009 is about when the "Hebrew Roots" thing got started.    Today, thousands and thousands of Christians are turning their hearts back to obedience....not to earn salvation, but because of salvation.   Obedience, per John 5, is how we show God we love Him.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So Jesus was wrong?    Jesus said "don't go to the Gentiles, but to the House of Israel"     Clearly a difference in the two.     The Bride of Christ is also clearly identified in Revelation and is, as you said, the New Jerusalem.   This New Jerusalem can only be entered by those associated with the tribes....no Gentile gate.



Jesus was clearly not wrong. He came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Yet, that was the laying down of the foundation. Jesus sent Paul on a mission to the gentiles after the cross. This was bringing the diaspora in and it also brought about a Godly jealousy over the Jews. He continued drawing them into the fold until the end. Remember not all in Israel were Israel. As for there not being a gentile gate, I say bologna...show me scripture that disproves Revelation 22 that the spirit and bride beckons to whosoever will.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then you see the "gathering" of the dispersed Jews as more of a spiritual gathering than an actual physical gathering?
> 
> What about Romans 11? Did their acceptance bring life to the dead?



 It was a real gathering into the spiritual kingdom.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus was clearly not wrong. He came only for the lost sheep of Israel. Yet, that was the laying down of the foundation. Jesus sent Paul on a mission to the gentiles after the cross. This was bringing the diaspora in and it also brought about a Godly jealousy over the Jews. He continued drawing them into the fold until the end. Remember not all in Israel were Israel. As for there not being a gentile gate, I say bologna...show me scripture that disproves Revelation 22 that the spirit and bride beckons to whosoever will.



I just did.   Rev 22 says that there are only 12 Gates....   are you disputing that?  

Also, was Paul's evangelism only to last until 70AD?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

sorry  Rev 21 says only 12 Gates...

12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

Rev 22 says who can enter them

14  Blessed are they that DO HIS COMMANDMENTS, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> sorry  Rev 21 says only 12 Gates...
> 
> 12  And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
> 
> ...


Revelation 21 is referring to the 144,000..agree?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Revelation 21 is referring to the 144,000..agree?



Disagree....     Why would I think that?    IMO, the only reason someone would think that, since it doesn't state it, is to cram the scripture into a prior belief.    New Jerusalem is HUGE.....much more room than 144000 will need.     My small hometown can handle that many        The qualifier to enter the city is to be someone that Satan hates:   Having the testimony of Jesus and keeping the commandments of God.    REv 12


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## BANDERSNATCH (Mar 22, 2019)

You do agree that not every Christian (although most Christians believe they are) is "the bride of Christ'?   Being a Christian that continues in willful sin does not a bride of Christ make...


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2019)

Bandersnatch...the 144,000 number in my opinion is not literal,  but representative of the remnant and elect. I've studied this extensively and the three groups are the very same. The elect= The remnant= The 144,000. And yes, they were all Israelites.

As for the Bride of Christ being Christian's, I agree we are not the Bride, we are the children of God. The bride is the kingdom.


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