# Food for thought, or faith. You decided



## bushidobam (Oct 6, 2012)

So last year I read a book by the late Christopher Hitchens titled, _god Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything_, and in the back of the book were some questions for discussion. There are exactly 19 discussion questions in this book, but I'm going to throw out only two, and see what some of the responses are.

1) Name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been performed by a nonbeliever?

2) What do you make of the idea that religion gives people 'bad reasons to behave well?'


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## centerpin fan (Oct 6, 2012)

#1 - nothing leaps to mind

#2 - I dunno.  I don't think the Golden Rule would fit that description.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 6, 2012)

2)  I don't know about other religions, but Christianity certainly doesn't give people 'bad reasons to behave well'


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## bushidobam (Oct 6, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> 2)  I don't know about other religions, but Christianity certainly doesn't give people 'bad reasons to behave well'



What about the ultimatum that christianity offers? In short form, _Accept JC as your lord and saviour, or burn in he11 for eternity._ That doesn't seem very good to me. 

Again, another (poor) analogy, but that's like saying ' you are either going to vote for Barack Obama for president, or you are going to stick the barrel of my shotgun in your mouth and squeeze the trigger.'

That to me is not a good reason, that to me is instilling fear, and that is bad. Awful even.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 6, 2012)

bushidobam said:


> What about the ultimatum that christianity offers? In short form, _Accept JC as your lord and saviour, or burn in he11 for eternity._ That doesn't seem very good to me....
> 
> That to me is not a good reason, that to me is instilling fear, and that is bad. Awful even.



First, if your only reason for becoming a Christian is "fire insurance", that is pretty poor.

Second, some things should be feared.


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## outdooraddict (Oct 6, 2012)

bushidobam said:


> So last year I read a book by the late Christopher Hitchens titled, _god Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything_, and in the back of the book were some questions for discussion. There are exactly 19 discussion questions in this book, but I'm going to throw out only two, and see what some of the responses are.
> 
> The first is absolutely true, a nonbeliever could, why not? Unfortunately, they have no reason why they should. There is no "oughtness" to our behavior, nothing we ought to do.
> 
> ...


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## ross the deer slayer (Oct 6, 2012)

2. I behave well because I know its right, when I do bad I think "wow that was stupid of me" and ask for forgiveness. I don't really feel threatened by God, if I honestly believe in Him, i'm fine. I obviously need to continue doing things right and trying to avoid sin...and thhe concept of he11, I think, is similar to human discipline. Tell a child not to eat a cookie that's right in front of them and they eat it. Tell them they will be popped with a ruler and a thought process occurs


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## gtparts (Oct 9, 2012)

bushidobam said:


> 1) Name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been performed by a nonbeliever?



This leaves many questions, such as:

What is an "ethical statement or action"? That is, what makes a statement or action ethical?

and

Does making a statement or taking an action give clear indication as to intent and motive?

What Hitchens has done here is "load" the question to imply that there is no difference between one individuals ethical behavior and anyone else's. He excludes reference to motivation and intent, which go to the character of the one making the statement or taking the action. Furthermore, it seeks to place everyone on equal ground, morally, based on their capacity to be ethical. The believer may behave the same, but his/her motivation should be to become more like Christ, to please God, and to respond with obedience to the love, mercy, and grace God has extended, first. The nonbeliever does not, cannot, operate from that position. Scripture says essentially this: Being nice to folks who are nice to you is of no special note or praise. Even nonbelievers do that. Instead, do what God does, what God instructs. Love the unlovely (your enemies), pray for those who mistreat you, give sacrificially (in various ways). Being a believer is about being transformed, living ones life based on an agenda totally different from the world's view.




bushidobam said:


> 2) What do you make of the idea that religion gives people 'bad reasons to behave well?'



Religion can certainly have that effect; even the pseudo-Christianity that is so prevalent today. 

It originates in a works-based theology that seeks to justify evil, to accomplish a "greater good". True Christianity speaks solidly against such a foolish and self-serving position. To effectively serve the holy, perfect, and just God, one cannot be unholy in method to achieve holiness. In every situation God grants the grace to remain holy. Sadly, we all choose our way instead, from time to time. God does not justify our actions simply based on outcome. He is far more concerned about our character, what we attempt for Him, and the purity of our motivation (heart).


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## ted_BSR (Oct 9, 2012)

bushidobam said:


> So last year I read a book by the late Christopher Hitchens titled, _god Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything_, and in the back of the book were some questions for discussion. There are exactly 19 discussion questions in this book, but I'm going to throw out only two, and see what some of the responses are.
> 
> 1) Name an ethical statement or action, made or performed by a person of faith, that could not have been performed by a nonbeliever?
> 
> 2) What do you make of the idea that religion gives people 'bad reasons to behave well?'



1) A non-believer cannot share the good news of salvation.

2) Religion does behave badly, no doubt. Anytime you throw in a middle man, they want a cut. When you look at God's laws (particularly Old Testament), it is apparent that they were not created so that man could serve the law, but rather that the law could serve man. For example, keeping the Sabbath Holy by observing a day of rest is a good idea for your health. The human body was made to NEED rest. This also applied to the earth. God asked for his followers to allow their fields to "rest" every seventh year. Crop rotation is a sound farming practice. Don't eat pork, because you cook over a fire and don't have microscopes, so you don't know about trichinosis. Cook in a Kosher manner because you don't want your carrots rolling around in the blood of the meat you have butchered. Don't have premarital sex because it leads to unwanted pregnancy and disease. Don't cut the hair on your temples, because you shave with a rock. I am not Hassidic, or even Jewish, but the lessons here are obvious to me.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 9, 2012)

bushidobam said:


> What about the ultimatum that christianity offers? In short form, _Accept JC as your lord and saviour, or burn in he11 for eternity__._ That doesn't seem very good to me.
> 
> Again, another (poor) analogy, but that's like saying ' you are either going to vote for Barack Obama for president, or you are going to stick the barrel of my shotgun in your mouth and squeeze the trigger.'
> 
> That to me is not a good reason, that to me is instilling fear, and that is bad. Awful even.



Try this instead: "You are seperated from God by sin. God offers you a totally free way to get back to His presence. Take it or leave it."

It is not an ultimatum. The consequences are perfectly clear, but it is a gift.


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