# Don't Question God!" and a list of other incredible memes which sustain Christianity.



## footjunior (Jan 15, 2009)

*Don't Question God!" and a list of other incredible memes which sustain Christianity.*

Perhaps best meme ever created. Aye?

I mean... the genius of this. Write a book. In the book, include scripture which tell readers of the book:

1. Believe what is said in this book or go to He11.
2. Readers of this book have no right to question what's in this book. This is because the book says so.
3. You cannot use your logic to question God. You cannot use your logic because logic is flawed. How do we know this? We used logic to know that our logic is flawed. Instead, you must use faith, which by faith we know is better than logic.
4. Oh by the way, I'm an inspired author, so everything in this book is perfect, even the illogical bits. How do you know it's inspired? Because I said so in this book.
5. Be sure to indoctrinate your kids. Start at the age of 0.
6. Be ready to give an answer to all those who ask for a reason for your hope. Unless they're really hard questions. If that's the case, just say the word "faith" repeatedly until they run away.
7. Please make copies and send to all your friends.

You're pretty much guaranteed to win. These were just off the top of my head. Can anyone think of any more?


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## Israel (Jan 15, 2009)

footjunior said:


> Perhaps best meme ever created. Aye?
> 
> I mean... the genius of this. Write a book. In the book, include scripture which tell readers of the book:
> 
> ...



I question God all the time, I have never found him to be offended by it at all.


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 15, 2009)

about 3000 years ago, a large group of religious and political hustlers wanted to get together and control people. 

the human brain is easily programmable, and the authors of the bible knew this.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 15, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> about 3000 years ago, a large group of religious and political hustlers wanted to get together and control people.
> 
> the human brain is easily programmable, and the authors of the bible knew this.



Well surely if there was proof that the Bible was incorrect, a hoax. or whatever, that some brilliant person could deprogram us...how 'bout you? You the man for the job? Whatcha got?
Are you saying no political hustlers or religious writers since then were smart enough to change our minds? 

Lordy those guys back then musta really been geniuses. No one has been able to boil christians in oil, feed them to the lions, crusify them upside down, stone them, and later fry the jews in ovens to deprogram believers. Musta been one heck of a brainwashing going on back then.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 15, 2009)

Israel said:


> I question God all the time, I have never found him to be offended by it at all.



Me, too.

Why Lord Why?  

I usually find out why...and glad I didn't get what I wanted to get.


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## footjunior (Jan 15, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well surely if there was proof that the Bible was incorrect, a hoax. or whatever, that some brilliant person could deprogram us...how 'bout you? You the man for the job? Whatcha got?
> Are you saying no political hustlers or religious writers since then were smart enough to change our minds?
> 
> Lordy those guys back then musta really been geniuses. No one has been able to boil christians in oil, feed them to the lions, crusify them upside down, stone them, and later fry the jews in ovens to deprogram believers. Musta been one heck of a brainwashing going on back then.



And Muslims with PH.D's fly into buildings so they can get 72 virgins. Faith is very powerful. Fundamentalists from any religion are rarely able to escape their indoctrinated beliefs. They are so ingrained into the culture and mindset of the fundamentalist that no amount of reason will persuade them. With fundamentalism comes an immunity to criticism.


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## gtparts (Jan 15, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well surely if there was proof that the Bible was incorrect, a hoax. or whatever, that some brilliant person could deprogram us...how 'bout you? You the man for the job? Whatcha got?
> Are you saying no political hustlers or religious writers since then were smart enough to change our minds?
> 
> Lordy those guys back then musta really been geniuses. No one has been able to boil christians in oil, feed them to the lions, crusify them upside down, stone them, and later fry the jews in ovens to deprogram believers. Musta been one heck of a brainwashing going on back then.



After 2000 years of trying to dethrone Jesus, you'd think the smart ones would figure out that there is something to what the Bible says. Wait.....maybe they have.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 15, 2009)

footjunior said:


> And Muslims with PH.D's fly into buildings so they can get 72 virgins. Faith is very powerful. Fundamentalists from any religion are rarely able to escape their indoctrinated beliefs. They are so ingrained into the culture and mindset of the fundamentalist that no amount of reason will persuade them. With fundamentalism comes an immunity to criticism.



I'm pretty sure if they become the majority in America any infidels will be killed....there's no telling them to be acceptance of other religions...or just anyone who isn't their flavor of muslim/islam. I think people should be a teensy bit concerned about that.
 And I'm not talking about every muslim on the planet...I'm talking about the ones you are talking about.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 15, 2009)

gtparts said:


> After 2000 years of trying to dethrone Jesus, you'd think the smart ones would figure out that there is something to what the Bible says. Wait.....maybe they have.



Yep


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## gemcgrew (Jan 16, 2009)

He hath mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thank God for having mercy on any.


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> And Muslims with PH.D's fly into buildings so they can get 72 virgins. Faith is very powerful. Fundamentalists from any religion are rarely able to escape their indoctrinated beliefs. They are so ingrained into the culture and mindset of the fundamentalist that no amount of reason will persuade them. With fundamentalism comes an immunity to criticism.



Don't confuse religion with faith...you see the one all the time, but till the Lord allows, you won't see or know the other.

But, to extend your reasoning, if all faith/religion is fraudulent, then really, (and there is no God) what's wrong with running a few planes into a buidling? 
Or stealing your shiny new F-250?
Who's gonna say it's wrong? 
You? 
And the guy with your F-250 is gonna say no, it's just the way it oughtta be.

But before you say God is merely an invention to keep you from having a good time (you wouldn't be here apart from his grace)...consider all the restraint shown in society even by the most hardened nihilist because of it's (society's) framework of belief.

Hey, talking mud, think of how much less you'd appear to yourself if you didn't have your imaginary construct of the "religious" to feel superior to.


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

Israel said:


> But, to extend your reasoning, if all faith/religion is fraudulent, then really, (and there is no God) what's wrong with running a few planes into a buidling?



considering all the hijackers were islamic and hoping for their 72 virgins, id say that in a world without religion it probably would have never happened.

next question.


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## Israel (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> considering all the hijackers were islamic and hoping for their 72 virgins, id say that in a world without religion it probably would have never happened.
> 
> next question.



I have no doubt your antipathy to religion does not approach my own...but be that as it may.

As I'd mentioned, knowing the difference between religion and faith is the difference between life and death.

But without faith, one does not know that.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

I've seen "Road Warrior" and the grim depiction of strong vs. weak, where "moral boundaries" are set by parity between opposing factions, all else being bloodshed and carnage. 

First, filling our needs justifies any action we take. Second, filling our desires is easily rationalized and so we take what we want also. We organize for defense and gain the advantage of strength. We, then, take the offense, so that we become them and they become us. We can't really distinguish any difference. The cycle repeats itself, alternating between some form of government, rebellion, and then anarchy. Round and round; no purpose, no peace, no soul. 

I would rather live in a world that has an illusion of accountability to a benevolent "deity". Without some form of self-restraint, humans are no different than the slime that evolutionists say we came from. Imagine, all that change, just to remain the same.

Now, that's a cosmic joke.

Lord, thank you for being who you are. For revealing yourself to your creation and through your creation and in your Son. May I always reserve for you the glory, honor, and praise you are due. Thank you for showing me the rebellion of my soul and sending Jesus that I might be reconciled to you. Amen!


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

Israel said:


> Don't confuse religion with faith...you see the one all the time, but till the Lord allows, you won't see or know the other.



Where did the hijackers get their faith? Religion, perhaps? 



> But, to extend your reasoning, if all faith/religion is fraudulent, then really, (and there is no God) what's wrong with running a few planes into a buidling?
> Or stealing your shiny new F-250?
> Who's gonna say it's wrong?
> You?
> And the guy with your F-250 is gonna say no, it's just the way it oughtta be.



One thing is that it's just wrong. How do I know it's wrong? Because I wouldn't want other people doing it to me (Golden Rule, which by the way did not originate from Christianity). Another thing is that you will go to jail. Do you see atheists blowing up abortion clinics or flying into buildings? These terrorist acts can only be done by people who have incredibly strong faith that what they're doing is right.

Believe it or not you do not need an invisible sky daddy to tell you how to live. Most atheists live perfectly normal, happy lives.



> But before you say God is merely an invention to keep you from having a good time (you wouldn't be here apart from his grace)...consider all the restraint shown in society even by the most hardened nihilist because of it's (society's) framework of belief.



Nonsense. I had a good time when I was a Christian and I have a good time now. I was always a happy individual whether I was a Christian or not. Could you rephrase that last sentence or give examples? What do you  mean by restraint? Do you want to steal an F-250? Are you saying that without a book telling you what to do, you would go around killing and stealing?



> Hey, talking mud, think of how much less you'd appear to yourself if you didn't have your imaginary construct of the "religious" to feel superior to.



You're assuming a lot here. I don't feel superior nor inferior to anyone else. We're all products of our environment. Your environment has evidently not been inducive to critical thinking when it comes to religion. Chances are you can't help it.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I've seen "Road Warrior" and the grim depiction of strong vs. weak, where "moral boundaries" are set by parity between opposing factions, all else being bloodshed and carnage.



Movies =/= reality. I watch reality every day. Last time I checked religion is causing a lot of strife in the world. You think our military would be in the Middle East getting blown up if it wasn't for religion?



> First, filling our needs justifies any action we take. Second, filling our desires is easily rationalized and so we take what we want also. We organize for defense and gain the advantage of strength. We, then, take the offense, so that we become them and they become us. We can't really distinguish any difference. The cycle repeats itself, alternating between some form of government, rebellion, and then anarchy. Round and round; no purpose, no peace, no soul.







> I would rather live in a world that has an illusion of accountability to a benevolent "deity". Without some form of self-restraint, humans are no different than the slime that evolutionists say we came from. Imagine, all that change, just to remain the same.



lol. That's ridiculous. Look around you. Look and see who are causing trouble. It's the ones with this illusion of accountability that you speak of. Religion makes good people do bad things.

All forms of self-restraint must come from religion?


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> I was always a happy individual whether I was a Christian or not.


From your posts and your responses....you sure don't seem happy.



			
				footjunior said:
			
		

> Your environment has evidently not been inducive to critical thinking when it comes to religion. Chances are you can't help it.



Why the personal attack?  Can you not debate the simple point and leave it at that?  No need for stooping to personal attacks.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> From your posts and your responses....you sure don't seem happy.



Examples?



> Why the personal attack?  Can you not debate the simple point and leave it at that?  No need for stooping to personal attacks.



Where exactly is the personal attack?


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## crackerdave (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> from your posts and your responses....you sure don't seem happy.
> 
> 
> 
> Why the personal attack?  Can you not debate the simple point and leave it at that?  No need for stooping to personal attacks.



amen!


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## crackerdave (Jan 16, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Yep



Yep,some more!

By the way - I haven't seen this question from anybody else,so I guess everybody but this dumb ol' cracker already knows: Just exactly WHAT is an "incredible meme?????" [See title of this thread]


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

> One thing is that it's just wrong. How do I know it's wrong? Because I wouldn't want other people doing it to me (Golden Rule, which by the way did not originate from Christianity). Another thing is that you will go to jail. Do you see atheists blowing up abortion clinics or flying into buildings? These terrorist acts can only be done by people who have incredibly strong faith that what they're doing is right.




So: 


> it's just wrong.


It's right. It's the thief's word against yours.



> How do I know it's wrong?


How do you know it isn't wrong?



> I wouldn't want other people doing it to me


So what, someone wants YOUR F250 truck for themselves and he does want to do that to you because you have one and he doesn't.



> Golden Rule, which by the way did not originate from Christianity



Means nothing to the guy that wants YOUR truck. Just some man-made platitudes that are less important than his desire for YOUR truck.



> Another thing is that you will go to jail.



He shouldn't. The Golden Rule is just the lame opinion of someone else. He views his actions as right. It gets him what he wants. It's all good. His feelings, his opinions are just as valid as yours. Laws are just the oppressive opinions of the elitist lawmakers,. They are just trying to deprive others (the have-nots) of what they want, while preserving what they (the elitist lawmakers) have.


Come on footjunior, come up with a good reason for this guy not to steal YOUR truck.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> Where exactly is the personal attack?



foot,
It is obvious that you and I don't see things the same way.  I understand that not everyone is going to agree with me or my views.  That is why we have a debate/discussion forum....and we've had some doosies in here too.

The problem is that you come in here and begin attacking folks that have been in here for a long time.  As far as your attack, I quoted it right above where I pointed it out to you.  You say that you are trying to learn, but I doubt that that is truly your motive.  Maybe I am wrong for judging motives based on your responses, but I don't think I'm the only who feels this way.

I don't have a problem with debate.  I don't have a problem with people not agreeing with me.  But don't come across as an arrogant kid to those who have two to three more times life experience as you do.  Age and experience are great learning tools and as you gain both, you'll gain more wisdom.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> foot,
> It is obvious that you and I don't see things the same way.  I understand that not everyone is going to agree with me or my views.  That is why we have a debate/discussion forum....and we've had some doosies in here too.
> 
> The problem is that you come in here and begin attacking folks that have been in here for a long time.  As far as your attack, I quoted it right above where I pointed it out to you.  You say that you are trying to learn, but I doubt that that is truly your motive.  Maybe I am wrong for judging motives based on your responses, but I don't think I'm the only who feels this way.
> ...



rj, 

footjunior apparently believes that environment is the primary determining factor in who a person is. I knew this fellow who wouldn't stand still in a garage for fear of becoming a grease spot. Hesitated in mid-stride one day and........
Finally got rid of him with a stiff pushbroom, some dishwashing liquid, and a garden hose.


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## crackerdave (Jan 16, 2009)

Hey,roothog - maybe YOU can tell this dumb cracker what an "incredible meme" is? Nobody else will


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

rangerdave said:


> Hey,roothog - maybe YOU can tell this dumb cracker what an "incredible meme" is? Nobody else will



wow, name calling. how mature............


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> so your basically saying evolution is ****?


 No, but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express one night.

Just saying that if there is no God, what difference does it all make; life, education, family, friends,......

Might as well do what feels good while it lasts.


 Tha.... tha.....tha.......that's all , folks.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> wow, name calling. how mature............





rangerdave was speaking of himself. (tongue in cheek)


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

rangerdave said:


> Yep,some more!
> 
> By the way - I haven't seen this question from anybody else,so I guess everybody but this dumb ol' cracker already knows: Just exactly WHAT is an "incredible meme?????" [See title of this thread]



Very good question. Memes are simply ideas, thoughts, etc. that spread like viruses do. Memes in religion spread in a way similar to natural selection. The meme that best replicates itself is the one that stays in the religion or evolves with different religions.

An example would be the concept of He11. The concept of He11 is a very successful meme. It is found in many religions.

That's just a very basic description. You should look it up and research it more, it's pretty interesting in my opinion.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> so your basically saying evolution is ****?



I'll say evolution is baloney.



footjunior said:


> The bold part in the quote is ironic.



Not really...I think it was pretty fitting...but edited it because I did feel that it might have been a bit harsh.

You are correct, a statement made by a 2 year old or a 100 year old will be the same statement.  However, as you gain gray hairs, people tend to listen a bit more intently.  

Why that is?  Maybe its because of the society we live in.


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll say evolution is baloney.



where is your proof? there is plenty of scientific proof to support evolution, but i bet you cannot find one verified shred of scientific proof for creation.

lets speak frankly here.

for the sake of discussion, lets just say there is a god. where did god come from? if something as complex as "god" just randomly "happened"on its own, then what is to say that the world couldnt have just happened and evolved on its own?

but if "god" was created by some other force, then it wouldnt neccessarily be god at all.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> where is your proof? there is plenty of scientific proof to support evolution, but i bet you cannot find one verified shred of scientific proof for creation.
> 
> lets speak frankly here.
> 
> ...




Here's something that's gonna blow your socks off.

God has no beginning!  God has always existed.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> God has no beginning!  God has always existed.



Another nice meme. Thanks Ronnie!

8. God has no beginning! How do I know? Because I said so in this book.


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's something that's gonna blow your socks off.
> 
> God has no beginning!  God has always existed.



everything has a beginning. it is the simple way things work.

"i refuse to believe that i would be created by a god, and then given logic and reason, but be expected to fore-go their use by believing in him"


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's something that's gonna blow your socks off.
> 
> God has no beginning!  God has always existed.



Ding ding ding.  Alex, we have a winner.



footjunior said:


> Another nice meme. Thanks Ronnie!
> 
> 8. God has no beginning! How do I know? Because I said so in this book.



Word of the day.  Meme



heavymetalhunter said:


> everything has a beginning. it is the simple way things work.
> 
> "i refuse to believe that i would be created by a god, and then given logic and reason, but be expected to fore-go their use by believing in him"



That is fine....that is your God-given right to believe what you want to.  But you are putting human parameters on something that is non-human.

Oh...and for evidence of creation or a young earth?

How thick was the dust on the moon when mankind landed their in 1969?  Kinda interesting that after billions of millions of years, only a few inches had accumulated.


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> How thick was the dust on the moon when mankind landed their in 1969?  Kinda interesting that after billions of millions of years, only a few inches had accumulated.



so i take that you think the universe hasnt really been around that long. is that correct? if so, how long do YOU think it has existed?


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> Perhaps best meme ever created. Aye?
> 
> You're pretty much guaranteed to win. These were just off the top of my head. Can anyone think of any more?



I've got a few memes for the Religion of Atheism.

1. Prove it.

Then, when someone proves it...

2. That isn't valid proof.

or....

3.  You actually believe that?

4.  Why is it that religion is common with the uneducated?

I'd say, you are pretty much guaranteed to win with those as well.


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## Banjo (Jan 16, 2009)

How about all those transitional fossils that the Evolutionists have found.....Anyone?  Anyone?


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> The state's response to his stealing is a good reason for this guy to not steal my truck. It makes no difference what the thief thinks when he's in jail. There is no objective morality, but that fact does not negate the laws that are in place. The thief and I choose to live in America and choose to pay the consequences for our actions.
> 
> If you're looking for some sort of objective morality, you're not going to find it from me. Morality is subjective. It just so happens that in America many people have the same morality when it comes to stealing, that's why there's a law against stealing. In America, people differ on their morality when it comes to abortion, which is why there's so much debate on the legality of abortion.




In America, people differ on their morality when it comes to vehicle theft, also. If that were not so, then we would all be car thieves or none of us would be car thieves. It is only because the majority considers vehicle theft wrong that we have laws against it. Being in the majority does not make the positions held by them right. Does morality change as the majority changes? If you were stranded on an island with many cannibals, how would you regard them preparing you for dinner?

 I know, "It's just not right." 

Considering the rate of recovery, the condition at the time of recovery, the rate of apprehension, the rate of conviction, the average time of incarceration, I'd have to say that crime pays fairly well when everything is taken into consideration. It's no skin off my nose if he gets caught, as I do not own an F250. I would have to acquit him on the basis that his morality permitted such behavior and his morality is no less valid than yours or the other flawed people of the courtroom. In fact, you are in the wrong for imposing your moral values on him.

BTW:
Where do you think our system of law originated?


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I've got a few memes for the Religion of Atheism.



here we go again


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> How thick was the dust on the moon when mankind landed their in 1969?  Kinda interesting that after billions of millions of years, only a few inches had accumulated.



From your beloved website:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v7/i1/moondust.asp



> Calculations show that the amount of meteoritic dust in the surface dust layer, and that which trace element analyses have shown to be in the regolith, is consistent with the current meteoritic dust influx rate operating over the evolutionists' timescale. While there are some unresolved problems with the evolutionists ' case, the moon dust argument, using uniformitarian assumptions to argue against an old age for the moon and the solar system, should for the present not be used by creationists.


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## Banjo (Jan 16, 2009)

Evolution is a religion...It takes FAITH to believe it because it can't be proven.   Ever hear of anyone creating something out of NOTHING in the lab?  Abiogenesis simply doesn't occur....

For some people, it is much easier to believe we evolved than to believe there is a Creator to whom we are accountable.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> so i take that you think the universe hasnt really been around that long. is that correct?


Depends on your definition and perspective of the word long.



			
				heavymetalhunter said:
			
		

> if so, how long do YOU think it has existed?



I'd say less than 10,000 years.

How long do you think it has been in existence?  Do you have proof? 

Do you have proof that their isn't a God?  or is it just your reason and belief?


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## matthewsman (Jan 16, 2009)

*people addicted to the world are the same*



footjunior said:


> And Muslims with PH.D's fly into buildings so they can get 72 virgins. Faith is very powerful. Fundamentalists from any religion are rarely able to escape their indoctrinated beliefs. They are so ingrained into the culture and mindset of the fundamentalist that no amount of reason will persuade them. With fundamentalism comes an immunity to criticism.



Humanists are so proud of their education and own sense of self worth that they think that if they don't know something with their vast mental resources it just can't be.....
Hedonist are so into gratifying the flesh that the idea of denying their every whim on earth over rules the possibility of eternal judgement.

I am not into gifts of the Spirit,I don't have to have a supernatural act of God to make me believe.Sometimes I wonder if He even hears me,but I never doubt His being.

You, on the other hand, think that your own intelligence and ideas make you #1 on the evolutionary scale and that with enough forethought and planning can manipulate the planet and it's seasons etc. into a world with no end.

Not bad for only a soulless animal....

What kind of pride must you have to think you are your own creation and the "beat all end all" spiritual being?

That is akin to my 11 year old spitting in my face and telling me he would have acheived all that he has and will become without any support from his mom and I....

God made you,and will judge you,regardless of if you believe in Him or not.

It's like gravity,you won't escape it.

You listed 4 options on your poll with no valid answer included,you created that poll,but the the question presented to you one day will only have two answers.... 

You will answer it.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

Banjo said:


> How about all those transitional fossils that the Evolutionists have found.....Anyone?  Anyone?



Good point. Thanks. I'd like to see what creationists think of them.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> From your beloved website:
> 
> http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v7/i1/moondust.asp



Actually foot...ever heard of moongate?


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## matthewsman (Jan 16, 2009)

*That's tongue in cheek*



footjunior said:


> Good point. Thanks. I'd like to see what creationists think of them.




there are none


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> Humanists are so proud of their education and own sense of self worth that they think that if they don't know something with their vast mental resources it just can't be.....
> Hedonist are so into gratifying the flesh that the idea of denying their every whim on earth over rules the possibility of eternal judgement.
> 
> I am not into gifts of the Spirit,I don't have to have a supernatural act of God to make me believe.Sometimes I wonder if He even hears me,but I never doubt His being.
> ...


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## Banjo (Jan 16, 2009)

I think I was misunderstood....I have YET to see any transitional fossils....No pigs transforming into birds, no monkeys turning into humans, etc.....

I have posted this before, but it bears repeating:

Take a gander at some of Evolutionists' Scientific Endeavors:

Piltdown Man: fake, human skull with a few key parts missing, jaw of an ape whose teeth had been filed down and stained

Java Man: Bones found over fifty feet apart in gravel. Who knows if bones came from the same individual. Regular human skulls also evidenced in gravel (which were conveniently forgotten for 30 years).

Nutcracker Man: Skull ape-like, but buried with evidence of human tools.... must be evidence of an apeman using tools? Or perhaps the human tools were used on the ape skulls, not by the apes. Ape meat may be too tough, so the ape brain is considered the real delicacy. 30 years later Leakey finds bones like modern man buried deeper. Hmmmmmmm...

We also have other mistakes made.... supposed ape-men's bones turning out to be other things like: alligator's upper leg bone, dolphin's rib, horse's toe.

Nebraska Man (including his whole family): based on a single TOOTH.... that is good science. Remember the Scopes Trial? An identical tooth was found later with its real skull attached to its real skeleton..... Pig's tooth. 

Ramapithecus: first ape to walk upright????? This based on pieces of jaws and teeth. Soon after whole jaw is found and as it turns out Rama was just an ape after all.

How come Evolutionist's are so eager to use the tiniest bit of "evidence" to support their Scientific endeavors? 

How about the tooth that wasn't there? Discover magazine's cover story on a jaw that had the canine teeth missing. The hole where they should have been was small, so the pointed teeth must have been small, which means they couldn't have been used as weapons, which means the animal must have had its hands free to hold weapons, which PROVES it walked upright....

Evolution is not science. It is a belief about the past. A belief made up by men and women who weren't there. Men and women who are not omniscient, and who have made some HUGE mistakes about the past already.


----------



## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> Humanists are so proud of their education and own sense of self worth that they think that if they don't know something with their vast mental resources it just can't be.....



What is it exactly that humanists don't understand?



> You, on the other hand, think that your own intelligence and ideas make you #1 on the evolutionary scale and that with enough forethought and planning can manipulate the planet and it's seasons etc. into a world with no end.



Where have I said anything like this? Please quote. Manipulate the planet into a world with no end? I have no clue what you're talking about. Sorry.



> What kind of pride must you have to think you are your own creation and the "beat all end all" spiritual being?



Again. Please quote. And again, I have no idea what you're talking about. "Beat all end all spiritual being." 



> That is akin to my 11 year old spitting in my face and telling me he would have acheived all that he has and will become without any support from his mom and I....



There is direct evidence that you have supported your child. There is no evidence that God has supported humanist endeavors.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> everything has a beginning. it is the simple way things work.
> 
> "i refuse to believe that i would be created by a god, and then given logic and reason, but be expected to fore-go their use by believing in him"



You realize your refusal to believe has no bearing on the truth one way or the other.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Actually foot...ever heard of moongate?



No.


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## heavymetalhunter (Jan 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> You realize your refusal to believe has no bearing on the truth one way or the other.



do you realize your decision to believe has no bearing on the truth, one way or the other?


----------



## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> In America, people differ on their morality when it comes to vehicle theft, also. If that were not so, then we would all be car thieves or none of us would be car thieves. It is only because the majority considers vehicle theft wrong that we have laws against it. Being in the majority does not make the positions held by them right. Does morality change as the majority changes? If you were stranded on an island with many cannibals, how would you regard them preparing you for dinner?



I think you're still confusing me as someone who believes in an objective morality. I may think that cannibalism is wrong (through my subjective morality), but that has no impact on the cannibals (who have their own separate morality). My morality may change based on new experiences, and those new experiences may be influenced by majority changes, but it is not a direct, 100% positive correlation.



> Considering the rate of recovery, the condition at the time of recovery, the rate of apprehension, the rate of conviction, the average time of incarceration, I'd have to say that crime pays fairly well when everything is taken into consideration.



I think you're kidding. In a purely financial sense it is not worth it to steal cars. Crime does not pay very well. The rate of apprehension is simply too high.



> I would have to acquit him on the basis that his morality permitted such behavior and his morality is no less valid than yours or the other flawed people of the courtroom. In fact, you are in the wrong for imposing your moral values on him.



lol that's your choice to acquit him, even though I highly doubt you would in reality. It's not my morals, it's the law. He can leave the country. I'm not making him stay in America.



> Where do you think our system of law originated?



Mostly from English Common Law I'm guessing.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

Banjo said:


> I think I was misunderstood....I have YET to see any transitional fossils....No pigs transforming into birds, no monkeys turning into humans, etc.....



Honestly? 

If you haven't seen any transitional fossils then you haven't looked for them. That's ok. If I was a Christian I wouldn't look for them either. Every fossil we find is transitional. When I die and rot in the grave, my skeleton can be considered a transitional fossil, marking the transition from homo sapien to whatever we evolve (or more likely whatever we're genetically engineered) into in the future.



> Piltdown Man: fake, human skull with a few key parts missing, jaw of an ape whose teeth had been filed down and stained
> 
> Java Man: Bones found over fifty feet apart in gravel. Who knows if bones came from the same individual. Regular human skulls also evidenced in gravel (which were conveniently forgotten for 30 years).
> 
> ...



So out of all the scientific evidence we have for evolution, these are some of the only mistakes? And most of them are over 70 years old? I think we're doing pretty good. If you're looking for perfect science you're not going to find it. Scientists make mistakes because their human. Thankfully we have scientists to recognize these mistakes and fix them. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Even if we had no fossil evidence at all, the simple variations between current, local populations of animals would be enough (read as Galapagos Island species).

Good example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRCe9hUt4lo


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

I





> think you're still confusing me as someone who believes in an objective morality. I may think that cannibalism is wrong (through my subjective morality), but that has no impact on the cannibals (who have their own separate morality). My morality may change based on new experiences, and those new experiences may be influenced by majority changes, but it is not a direct, 100% positive correlation.



Then, as each forms his or her own sense of morality, there is no absolute morality and you are content with being consumed by the cannibals, being convinced that for you, it is wrong, but willing to concede that for them it is right? You adopt situational morality as a dynamic belief system? Your convictions of today may not be your convictions of tomorrow? You then would be a most curious individual of unstable character. Do you hold security clearances?


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## matthewsman (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> What is it exactly that humanists don't understand?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do you understand EVERYTHING?Can you speak eloquently for hours on the differences in tonal and guttural language difference and their subtle differences?Discuss problems and successes with advances in biomechanics?Exlain the homing instinct in birds or the biological quirks that enable somespecies synchronized flight...?Could you personally replicate the Great pyramids or direct a crew in reconstructing Roman Aqueducts?Make me a quick model of a strand of human DNA and compare the similarities and differences in that and a Chimp?Diagram a complex sentence correctly without going back to your highschool comp primer?Capacitors?Masonry?Tape and finish Drywall? Sculpt?

Have you reached the end of your quest for knowledge already,or are you on a "vision quest"?

I promise you everything you think you know or understand is nothing more than 2 cups and a string compared to the vast amounts of talent and knowledge that has been expended and aquired by humankind.It is insulting for you to assume that you have spent more time and effort by keying a phrase or two into a search engine and expect people to defend their beliefs against every philosophical concept dreamed up by every "truth seeker " in the worlds brief(6000 years or so ) history.. 


Humanists the world over think that by manipulating the planet by reducing our consumption and waste products and usage patterns we can influence the seasons and conditions and extend the usefull life of our planet...The ants would be better served to expend their efforts...weight wise there are about as many of them...

"Beat all end all"if that's over your head,I prolly just wasted a few paragraphs above...Put it easy for you...You ain't the "Big Cheese" You are not the epitome of the "life force"You aren't the "highest power"...Maybe that helps or someone else can elucidate more explicitly for you....


I'll agree with you...there is no evidence God has supported humanists endeavors....


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2009)

*More memes....*



> Originally Posted by footjunior
> 
> 
> In a purely financial sense it is not worth it to steal cars.
> ...



Trying to protect his vehicle from theft.


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## JC (Jan 16, 2009)

lets hear it for the banjo!  I would love to read a response to her last post.  What about the second law of thermodynamics the Law of the Unmoved Mover.  That everything set in motion must be put in motion by something that can not be moved.  Or Carbon 14 dating that each time it gets "updated" the length of the years earths existence is shortened?  This is great stuff to be discussing.  But He is right in the end it all boils down to faith.  Either you have faith in God or you have faith in Scientist.


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## matthewsman (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> Honestly?
> 
> If you haven't seen any transitional fossils then you haven't looked for them. That's ok. If I was a Christian I wouldn't look for them either. Every fossil we find is transitional. When I die and rot in the grave, my skeleton can be considered a transitional fossil, marking the transition from homo sapien to whatever we evolve (or more likely whatever we're genetically engineered) into in the future.
> 
> ...



Now you're being silly..You claim evolutionary theory isn't perfect,but it's close and you'll accept it...Darwin himself said in 1859 that the biggest problem with his teory was the absence of a transitional fossil(missing link) for the modern man....Transitional fossils ave been found for other creatures.(where you and I would have a difference on these are aging them)You can't convince me that we can find fossilized remains of humans of all form from eons ago but can't find the remains of the last stage before modern man...As sparcely as the world was populated and according to the cataysclismic geographic and climate changes we've supposedly had throughout the eons,the latest remains should be the most obtainable....Yet they ae not there...

If you are satisfied with "pretty good" theories faulted only by a few human mistakes,then Creation ought to be moderately appealing to you also...


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## crackerdave (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> wow, name calling. how mature............



I forgive you,rookie.You obviously don't know that I have a friend on Woody's whose screen name is roothog. Better look before you attack this ol' boy!


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Then, as each forms his or her own sense of morality, there is no absolute morality and you are content with being consumed by the cannibals, being convinced that for you, it is wrong, but willing to concede that for them it is right?



Yes. For them it is perfectly fine, for me it is not. This is the core of subjective morality. However, if it is wrong to me, that means I'm not "content with being consumed by the cannibals" and therefore I would fight for my life.



> You adopt situational morality as a dynamic belief system?



I don't change my morality on a whim, if that's what you mean. If by "dynamic belief system" you mean that I am open minded, then yes I agree with you.

As I said before, my morality changes just like my opinions of certain things do. I educate myself. My opinion changes as I gain more information. For example I used to be pro-life, now I am pro-choice (here come the flames ). I did so because I gained more information about the topic. I used to be a Christian, now I'm an atheist. I did so because I gained more information about the topic. If, in the future, I gain adequate information that supports Christianity,  I will become a Christian. If I gain adequate information that supports Islam, I will become a Muslim.

Those who never change their opinions love themselves more than they love the truth. - Joseph Joubert



> Your convictions of today may not be your convictions of tomorrow? You then would be a most curious individual of unstable character. Do you hold security clearances?



Yous a funny guy. 

It takes adequate and verifiable evidence to convince me of anything. You should have seen the amount studying I did to convince myself that time dilation is possible.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> Do you understand EVERYTHING?



Of course not. 



> I promise you everything you think you know or understand is nothing more than 2 cups and a string compared to the vast amounts of talent and knowledge that has been expended and aquired by humankind.



When did I ever say anything like this? Quotes?



> It is insulting for you to assume that you have spent more time and effort by keying a phrase or two into a search engine and expect people to defend their beliefs against every philosophical concept dreamed up by every "truth seeker " in the worlds brief(6000 years or so ) history.



I don't know what you're talking about anymore. Quotes?



> Humanists the world over think that by manipulating the planet by reducing our consumption and waste products and usage patterns we can influence the seasons and conditions and extend the usefull life of our planet...The ants would be better served to expend their efforts...weight wise there are about as many of them...



What's wrong with the humanists thinking this?



> "Beat all end all"if that's over your head,I prolly just wasted a few paragraphs above...Put it easy for you...You ain't the "Big Cheese" You are not the epitome of the "life force"You aren't the "highest power"...Maybe that helps or someone else can elucidate more explicitly for you....



Isn't it supposed to be "be all end all"? 

When did I ever say any of these things? Quotes?

"Life force", "highest power"? You're saying these things, not me. Please quote next time.


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> Now you're being silly..You claim evolutionary theory isn't perfect, but it's close and you'll accept it



There's no such thing as a perfect theory. Unless the theory is rooted in dogmatism and you're the dogmatist.



> Darwin himself said in 1859 that the biggest problem with his teory was the absence of a transitional fossil(missing link) for the modern man



The key words in your statement is "in 1859". He was right. At the time almost no transitional fossils had been unearthed. This is likely because archeology was still a fledgling science back then. Since then, we have found hundreds of transitional fossils for all types of species.

What do you think will happen as time goes on? Will history repeat itself? Will we continue to find more and more transitional fossils? How many is enough to satisfy you? I think many people wouldn't be convinced even if we had every single transitional fossil that ever existed.



> Transitional fossils ave been found for other creatures.(where you and I would have a difference on these are aging them)You can't convince me that we can find fossilized remains of humans of all form from eons ago but can't find the remains of the last stage before modern man...As sparcely as the world was populated and according to the cataysclismic geographic and climate changes we've supposedly had throughout the eons,the latest remains should be the most obtainable....Yet they ae not there...



So the world was sparsely populated yet that somehow means that we should find mounds of transitional fossils?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkana_Boy



> If you are satisfied with "pretty good" theories faulted only by a few human mistakes,then Creation ought to be moderately appealing to you also...



The theory of evolution will be considered the correct theory until someone can provide verifiable evidence that says otherwise. Creationists have tried for 150 years, no one has come close.

The support for creationism is simply not backed up by scientific evidence. The answers in genesis website should show you this clearly. Each article is littered with original research that has never been published by any peer-reviewed journals. There is no data for individuals to research for themselves.

If someone can provide evidence for creationism that contradicts Darwinian theory, then I will be forced to accept creationism and anyone who doesn't switch to creationism would be a fool.


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## Banjo (Jan 16, 2009)

Any of you seen the movie "Expelled?"


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Any of you seen the movie "Expelled?"



Ya I watched it in December. It was uninformative. It's basically a conspiracy theory when you get down to it. The director took too much of a peripheral route in my opinion. The whole "atheism leads to Jew-killing" thing was absurd and did not flow well with the rest of the movie. The movie was supposed to be about the supposed suppression of creationism in academia, but it was more or less just anecdotal evidence (how many people did they actually interview? Like 7?). If they wanted to convince me they should have used statistics. Maybe have the statistics of how many Royal Society are creationists or perhaps the National Academy of Sciences. I look differently at Ben Stein now.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> anyone who doesn't switch to creationism would be a fool.



Hmmm...reminds me of the quote from Jim Elliot

"He is no fool who gives up what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."

I should add...if you don't know who Jim Elliot was, you should read his testimony.  It is an amazing story of how one would give up a life to reach a people that had never heard the Word of God.

http://www.hyperhistory.net/apwh/bios/b4jelliot6ra.htm


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> everything has a beginning. it is the simple way things work.
> 
> "i refuse to believe that i would be created by a god, and then given logic and reason, but be expected to fore-go their use by believing in him"




Okay then.


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## matthewsman (Jan 16, 2009)

You don't have a problem reading or understanding,you have a problem with selective quoting..We stilldon't have any tarditional human fossils or remains.

There's no such thing as a perfect theory,period.Dogmatism has nothing to do with it.The difference is I fault you with a lack of faith,not sense.You fault believers with a lack of sense.You're attempting to eduacate the educated that have already sifted through what you're weakly presenting and found it lacking.

I doubt the age and the amount of time progression in the dating processes used.Not the exsistence of the fossils.2000 years from now our science will be but fledgling to people then...NO TRANSITIONAL HUMAN REMAINS..quote "all species" again if you would please,but you are dodging what Banjo pointed out to you hours ago still...

The theory of evolution will be considered correct by who?As the world digresses and gets less spiritually minded I sincerely doubt Creation will be assigned any more validity by secular scientists or a more worldly world.I would have expected it to have lost and continue to lose popularity.You can't elevate yourself and be humble enough to believe.

You will discount whatever is put before you...Rest assured,it didn't all come from nothing with no beginning and there will be an end...




footjunior said:


> There's no such thing as a perfect theory. Unless the theory is rooted in dogmatism and you're the dogmatist.
> 
> 
> The key words in your statement is "in 1859". He was right. At the time almost no transitional fossils had been unearthed. This is likely because archeology was still a fledgling science back then. Since then, we have found hundreds of transitional fossils for all types of species.
> ...


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 16, 2009)

*since I seem to be the devil's advocate....*



Banjo said:


> How about all those transitional fossils that the Evolutionists have found.....Anyone?  Anyone?





How about the remains of Noah's Ark?
How about the tablets Moses wrote the commandments on?
How about the Ark of the Covenant?

Since none of those have been found, does that mean they don't exist?


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## Big7 (Jan 16, 2009)

footjunior said:


> And Muslims with PH.D's fly into buildings so they can get 72 virgins. Faith is very powerful. Fundamentalists from any religion are rarely able to escape their indoctrinated beliefs. They are so ingrained into the culture and mindset of the fundamentalist that no amount of reason will persuade them. With fundamentalism comes an immunity to criticism.



GO HERE: http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=288748
Post what you think.

Thanks!


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## matthewsman (Jan 16, 2009)

*found something*

http://www.specialtyinterests.net/the_remains_of_noahs_ark.html


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 16, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> http://www.specialtyinterests.net/the_remains_of_noahs_ark.html



I've seen that one before.... it was determined by geologists to be a natural formation 

Then you have Bob Cornuke and his 'ark' seen on Mount Suleiman in the Alborz (Elborz) Mountains... or any of the other number of people who claim they have 'seen' it in the Ararat region.

It's kind of like the burial tomb of Jesus... there are lots of possibilities, but nothing concrete...  people decide which one they have 'faith' is the 'real' one.    I'll admit, if there was positive evidence that Noah's ark had been found, that would be quite compelling to me... but so far....


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## footjunior (Jan 16, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> You don't have a problem reading or understanding,you have a problem with selective quoting..We stilldon't have any tarditional human fossils or remains.



"Selective quoting"? "Tarditional human fossils"? I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. I'm sorry.



> The difference is I fault you with a lack of faith,not sense.You fault believers with a lack of sense.



Where did I say any of this? Please quote.



> again if you would please,but you are dodging what Banjo pointed out to you hours ago still...



I replied to Banjo. Could you point out something that I did not answer or reply to? Just ask me the question or quote her. I'll answer to the best of my ability.



> The theory of evolution will be considered correct by who? As the world digresses and gets less spiritually minded I sincerely doubt Creation will be assigned any more validity by secular scientists or a more worldly world. I would have expected it to have lost and continue to lose popularity.



I'm confused. I'm unable to see your point. You ask who will consider evolution to be correct, but then go on to say that the world is getting more and more secular. I think you pretty much answered your own question.



> You can't elevate yourself and be humble enough to believe.



What do you mean by "elevate yourself"? 



> You will discount whatever is put before you...Rest assured,it didn't all come from nothing with no beginning and there will be an end...



Well if there is evidence against something then of course I will discount it. Put something in front of me and support it with evidence and I will be unable to discount it even if I wanted to.

The way you talk... you're either going over my head or I'm just unable to understand what you're trying to say. There's some sort of miscommunication. I'm sorry that I cannot reply to you in the way that you want me to. Tell me what I'm doing wrong.


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## matthewsman (Jan 17, 2009)

easy enough,maybe..

transitional,not tardational..simple typo..dodged it again

The implication is a simplistic world view or a gullible"ness".
A tendency to believe things you are too smart to fall for.
It's evident in your attitude and demeanor toward Christians.

The theory of evolution is still a work in progress.It,with it's perceived few faults is widely accepted by a secular world that has every reason to hope there is no God,a scientific community all grasping at fame in the hopes the next star or theory would be credited them...

just as certain things are found,fossils etc,thta they say lends validit to evolutionary theory,Biblical archeology continues to validate locations and events of the Bible.

To me and many others each one validates the total.


For instance..the Bible speaks of the miraculous distructionof Sodom and Gomorrah,then they excavate the charred remains of the city...Validated,why would I doubt other things,when over and over again it IS validated?


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## Israel (Jan 17, 2009)

Banjo said:


> How about all those transitional fossils that the Evolutionists have found.....Anyone?  Anyone?


Oh, you mean the trilobite thingy with a claw for holding a cell phone?
Or the ape found buried with a TV remote?


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## Israel (Jan 17, 2009)

Seriously, long before there was a Bible, there is God.
I don't believe in God because the Bible tells me I oughta, I believe the Bible cause the God who has made himself known to me has told me to look there to know more about his dealings with us folk. But it by no means contains the totality of God, nor is it my God...indeed it testifies that God is not measurable, and that even the works of Jesus could not be contained no matter how many books you'd care to write.
Now, you might say..."See!! I told you, you believe everything the bible says about Jesus just cause it says so!..." 
Whereas the Holy Spirit, that has been given to guide us, more often works to bring me to places in the bible to confirm those things about which he is speaking. I already knew "by the spirit" that Jesus is uncontainable, as are his works...and then I discover John says the same thing. Of Course it couldn't be different, for by him, all things that are created, were created.
Now, again, you could say..."see, you're just quoting the bible" but if it would help you any better to understand the things the Lord has taught me, not by telling me "You better believe the bible"...but taught because he is indeed the "teacher" the "master" the "Lord" and he has poured out his spirit, I can say stuff even in "non bible talk" if you prefer.
That buncha religious huksters as you call them who recorded the dealings of reality's author with them, sure didn't go outta there way to flatter themselves...and after being a man on this planet for a while I've come to the conclusion that there IS nothing particularly noble about us, except we can't seem to let go of our attempts to appear so. So when I find some nomads writing very unflattering things about themselves relative to what each of us seem to know about ourselves (none of us is as good as somehow we know we oughta be) I have pinned my hopes on the one they call Abba whose comforts allowed them to not spare themselves one wart in the retelling. That "ring" of truth I'd seen has led me to seeing the bellmaster more clearly, and he is far beyond words on a piece of parchment or vellum. He's well able to make himself known apart from the bible...it's just "his way" to have men relate his dealings with them...it's very expedient for opening lines of clearer communication.
And communication is what this God is all about. 
Intimate communication.


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## footjunior (Jan 17, 2009)

matthewsman said:


> transitional,not tardational..simple typo..dodged it again



I listed a transitional fossil a few posts back when I replied to you. Provided a link for it.



> The implication is a simplistic world view or a gullible"ness".
> A tendency to believe things you are too smart to fall for.
> It's evident in your attitude and demeanor toward Christians.



Well, I agree with you in one sense. Yes, I do believe that many fundamentalists have a simplistic world view and are gullible. But I disagree with you in another sense. I do not think fundamentalists are dumb. Rather, they have these characteristics because of their environment (indoctrination, upbringing, culture, etc.).



> The theory of evolution is still a work in progress. It,with it's perceived few faults is widely accepted by a secular world that has every reason to hope there is no God



Well I can't speak for the rest of the secular world, but I personally don't "hope there is no god". I simply do not believe there is one. I think you're implying that having no God would allow people to do what they want to do, which I'm assuming you mean sin.

My lifestyle didn't change when I became an atheist. In fact, I meet new people (mostly Christians) at Georgia Tech all the time, and they all think I'm a Christian. They see nothing in me that points toward a secular worldview. Most of the time when I tell them I'm an atheist, they are surprised. "Really? Well... I just assumed you were a Christian. You don't act like an atheist." I get this stuff all the time. I wish I knew how atheists act. My morals didn't change when I became an atheist either. Likewise, if I became a Christian, my lifestyle would not change whatsoever. The only difference is that I would go to Church and read the Bible often.

I see Christians at Georgia Tech sleeping around with every one, getting high, coming to class drunk. I'm sure there are atheists who do this as well. My point is that people do what they want to do. When I became an atheist it wasn't like, "Oh yes! Now I can go get high and steal and kill!" I just continued living my life like I had always been living it, the only difference is that I didn't believe in the Christian God anymore. Heck I even date a  Christian girl who's a creationist.



> a scientific community all grasping at fame in the hopes the next star or theory would be credited them...



"Grasping at fame"? Honestly? There are some who do this, no doubt, but not "all". You know what would get some scientist the most fame? Providing verifiable evidence for young-earth creationism.



> just as certain things are found,fossils etc,thta they say lends validit to evolutionary theory,Biblical archeology continues to validate locations and events of the Bible. For instance..the Bible speaks of the miraculous distructionof Sodom and Gomorrah,then they excavate the charred remains of the city...Validated,why would I doubt other things,when over and over again it IS validated?



I think most people (atheists, scientists, Muslims) believe that the Bible has plenty of historical merit. The Bible said that there was a city of Jericho and that the walls fell, sure enough they found the city of Jericho and the walls were gone. To believe this does not require faith, since there is evidence to back it up. The Bible also said that they marched around the city 7 times and that's what made the walls fall down. The difference is that there is no archeological evidence for this. To believe in this part of the story requires faith, since there is no evidence to back it up.

The Bible also said that there was a huge flood that covered everything. Sure enough scholars find stories from other parts of the world that note a large flood that happened around the same time. This part of the story requires little faith, because there is evidence that supports it. But the Bible says that only 8 people survived the flood and that they rode around in a big ship which also held 2 (or whatever number you interpret from the Bible) of every kind. There is simply no evidence for this part of the story, which means faith must be applied. Then there are the logical problems of genetics, distribution of animals after the flood, caring for the animals, not enough time for evolving into distinct species, survival of distant peoples (who also wrote about the flood in their own cultural way) who were not on the ship, etc. which further increase the amount of faith required to believe in this part of the story.

Without going into another Noah's ark debate, my point is that there are plenty of things in the Bible that are historically correct. There are also things in the Bible which are obviously the Israelite's embellishments of events that happened to them. Likewise there are things in Qu'ran that are historically correct, but there are some things which are obviously exaggerations of events that happened to them.


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## TatnallCountyHunter (Jan 29, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> *everything has a beginning. it is the simple way things work.*



Sir, you are apperantly not fluent with physics. Energy cannot be created nor destoryed. Therefore, it has no beginning and no end. Just like God, no beginning and no end.

Law of Conservation of Energy.


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## fivesolas (Jan 29, 2009)

TatnallCountyHunter said:


> Sir, you are apperantly not fluent with physics. Energy cannot be created nor destoryed. Therefore, it has no beginning and no end. Just like God, no beginning and no end.
> 
> Law of Conservation of Energy.



Where did energy come from? Are you saying energy is from all eternity to all eternity?


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## TatnallCountyHunter (Jan 29, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Where did energy come from? Are you saying energy is from all eternity to all eternity?



Yes, that is what I am saying. It's science. 

Where did the energy come from? It was created by a Intelligent Designer who has the abitlity to manipulate energy.


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## fivesolas (Jan 29, 2009)

TatnallCountyHunter said:


> Yes, that is what I am saying. It's science.
> 
> Where did the energy come from? It was created by a Intelligent Designer who has the abitlity to manipulate energy.



So then energy had a beginning.


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## TatnallCountyHunter (Jan 29, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> So then energy had a beginning.



Well, thats were it gets a little more complicated. 

See, my responce was to heavymetalhunter, who apparently is an atheist, and said that everything has a beginning. But, from an atheist's point of view, that there is not creator, that statement is incorrect because energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so it has been here forever.

We do not know everything about the universe as we think we do. There are some things that we could never understand.


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## celticfisherman (Jan 29, 2009)

footjunior said:


> And Muslims with PH.D's fly into buildings so they can get 72 virgins. Faith is very powerful. Fundamentalists from any religion are rarely able to escape their indoctrinated beliefs. They are so ingrained into the culture and mindset of the fundamentalist that no amount of reason will persuade them. With fundamentalism comes an immunity to criticism.



The thing you should be concerned about is........ They hate you worse than me! Atheists are not given any consideration. At least a Christian is a person of the book in their worldview. You (meaning you an atheist) either must convert or die by the sword (beheading). Christians and Jews on the other hand are allowed to pay taxes according to islamic law.


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## celticfisherman (Jan 29, 2009)

TatnallCountyHunter said:


> Well, thats were it gets a little more complicated.
> 
> See, my responce was to heavymetalhunter, who apparently is an atheist, and said that everything has a beginning. But, from an atheist's point of view, that there is not creator, that statement is incorrect because energy cannot be created nor destroyed, so it has been here forever.
> 
> We do not know everything about the universe as we think we do. There are some things that we could never understand.



That is a good argument. Mind if I borrow it one day?


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## celticfisherman (Jan 29, 2009)

footjunior said:


> "Selective quoting"? "Tarditional human fossils"? I'm having a hard time understanding what you're trying to say. I'm sorry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



#1- I thought you were too busy at GT?

#2- They have never found a missing link for Man. That is the only one that concerns me. I have no problem with micro-evolution. They also have not shown the transitional fossils that turn dinosaurs into birds. Or many other things. Science has found many cases of micro-evolution and species adaptation.

#3- I question God constantly. Not only do I question but I yell and shout. I scream and fuss. I have demanded answers to questions.

And you know what? 

He doesn't mind at all. That's why he gave me a mind and intelligence. 


If you are truly interested in the science I mention and my view of creation then you can visit http://reasons.org/

In fact I would urge everyone to view the site and read some of this. And foot this site is done by a Carl Sagan trained astronomer.


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## addictedtodeer (Jan 30, 2009)

footjunior said:


> Perhaps best meme ever created. Aye?
> 
> I mean... the genius of this. Write a book. In the book, include scripture which tell readers of the book:
> 
> ...



Wow, you're pretty ticked off at the possibility of the existence of the Christian God.

This is not meant as a slam but why do those who claim to not believe in a God work so hard at convincing those who do?
Is it just proslytzing?
 By discussing it do you not legitimatize the possibility that it is correct?


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## WTM45 (Jan 30, 2009)

addictedtodeer said:


> Wow, you're pretty ticked off at the possibility of the existence of the Christian God.
> 
> This is not meant as a slam but why do those who claim to not believe in a God work so hard at convincing those who do?
> Is it just proslytzing?
> By discussing it do you not legitimatize the possibility that it is correct?



Folks for centuries have questioned the existance of a deity.  Do we worship Ra?  No, as that fell out of favor some time ago.
Literally thousands of deities and ideas have been brought forth, invented, created, disproven and even in some cases outright outlawed.  Death came to those who did not convert.
Even the Bible was written by men, not by some hand in the sky with a diamond tipped feather.
It keeps coming back to ones belief and faith.  It is individual.


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