# Is 'evil' a thing, the absence of good, or something else?



## RegularJoe (Sep 25, 2021)

Is 'evil'
(1) a 'thing,'
(2) simply the absence of 'good,' or
(3) something entirely different than "(1)" or "(2)"
??????
Many thanks.


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## Spotlite (Sep 25, 2021)

Depends on who’s responding.

For the Christian it’s both 1 and 2.
1. A thing - it’s a work of Satan
2. Absence of Good - anything not of God

Outside of religion - what defines good / evil and often does that change? I see pictures of cave men dragging their wives to the kitchen and I see Ward Cleaver (Leave it to Beaver)


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 25, 2021)

I'm gonna say #2.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 25, 2021)

Is "good" a thing, the absence of evil, or something else? Maybe the answer to this question is also #2.

(2) simply the absence of 'evil'.


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## bullethead (Sep 25, 2021)

Did either exist prior to humanity?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 25, 2021)

Are babies born good and become evil or are they born evil and have to become good?


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## RegularJoe (Sep 25, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is "good" a thing, the absence of evil, or something else? Maybe the answer to this question is also #2.
> (2) simply the absence of 'evil'.


Art - A wonderful question, Sir.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 25, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are babies born good and become evil or are they born evil and have to become good?


Every baby I've ever been around is definitely evil.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 25, 2021)

I guess I would define an evil person as someone who has absolutely no empathy for others, hurts others to justify his own means, and actually enjoys causing suffering. Like Karl Panzram.


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## jollyroger (Sep 25, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Every baby I've ever been around is definitely evil.


Arguably the most violent subgroup of our species.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 25, 2021)

Theologically speaking, evil is anything that is contrary to God's nature and commands.

Good is a person.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 25, 2021)

I've always had issues with the mainstream Christian belief that humans are inherently evil as the default position, and have to be saved in order to be good. From what I see, there are good folks and evil folks, and going to church doesn't have much sway either way.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 25, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are babies born good and become evil or are they born evil and have to become good?



at 3:00 A.M. all good babies become evil when they start screaming like a banshee!


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## Spotlite (Sep 25, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I've always had issues with the mainstream Christian belief that humans are inherently evil as the default position, and have to be saved in order to be good. From what I see, there are good folks and evil folks, and going to church doesn't have much sway either way.


Technically, born into sin. 

That being said, there are many very good non Christians and there are many very evil Christians.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 25, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Technically, born into sin.
> 
> That being said, there are many very good non Christians and there are many very evil Christians.


Yep. Contrary to popular belief.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 25, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I've always had issues with the mainstream Christian belief that humans are inherently evil as the default position, and have to be saved in order to be good. From what I see, there are good folks and evil folks, and going to church doesn't have much sway either way.



Humans are evil? Humans_ seem_ evil (to us humans) because only one species (humans) has the mental ability to conceive of and express the concept of evil. Humans are the only species that asks "why?" or needs an explanation for our behavior. 
If any of the other hominids (like Neanderthals or homo erectus) had beat homo sapiens to the evolutionary punch, then they would likely be acting just like we do. Maybe they would never understand why, or have a reason for it, but an extremely complicated intelligent mind tends to go haywire and act contrary to what the rest of the group thinks is normal.


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## 1gr8buildit (Sep 25, 2021)

Religion uses the word evil more so than my definition exists. There is evil in the world, but not to the extent that religion uses it. Religion needs to embellish the word to contrast it's agenda. That sounds bad coming from a believer, however I use the word religion in a negative sense. I could call some democrats evil, or the media whom is trying to control how you think by feeding you what diet they have cooked up in order to brain wash you into what ever is their owner's agenda. A serial killer would be called evil.... However, evil as I define it, as most would define it.... is not very common. Our natures are self serving. Is that evil? We consider ourselves civil, a society of good people. Let me assure you we are not, including the religious. If we were to go without access to food or water for 6 days, no help in sight,  you would see a different humanity. People would kill to feed their kids. I personally think the word evil is an over played word. The contrast of good and evil for me is more of good contrast bad. Evil, exists,  but not the extent that religion poses


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## Spotlite (Sep 25, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> at 3:00 A.M. all good babies become evil when they start screaming like a banshee!


My kids were evil. My Grand-boys……..pure angelic!!!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 26, 2021)

1.Thing.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 26, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Did either exist prior to humanity?




Prior to humanity there was no out of sync with the then order of things ( and therefore no disorder was possible regards the human context).

With reference to man's measure of evil as a thing, evil did not exit before humanity, because mainly man did not exist. But  also and more I propose that nothing created that I am aware had the will to oppose or get out of order with whatever order there was prior to humanity. Every thing fell into the order. Humanity has a penchant to question order and to experiment itself out of it...just to see what will happen. Humanity is a tool maker, an artisan, an artist able to question, forego and/or create order (s).

If the above point is valid that nothing had an independent will to get out of order, or out of sorts in human terms due to getting out of order, then there was no possibility for evil before humanity as humans define it now. And more the case can be made that there was but good as some in humanity would define good.

And I think that this good is from a notion that there was/is an ancient order echoing to the senses or the imagination that life was once not cursed because it was in lock step with a wholesome order which was the first order of humanity when it came into its own; That is that human beings  despite having  free will  were  so enraptured or captivated by what we might call "love" or "good' or " good order" as to not know to leave this order.  Love had no borders to cross once because there were no borders.

I'm trying to use other than a theological outlook here... or trying to be independent of it in my thoughts.

If a mink on an island destroyed all the birds of a kind, the last ones remaining on the planet, we would not say the mink is evil. If man did this, with the full knowledge of what he was doing and knowing there was alternatives... then we might say of ourselves that man's humanity in this case is evil-- because there is an order or some orders in which it is not deemed evil because these orders operate from instinct independent of free will.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 26, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> Humans are evil? Humans_ seem_ evil (to us humans) because only one species (humans) has the mental ability to conceive of and express the concept of evil. Humans are the only species that asks "why?" or needs an explanation for our behavior.
> If any of the other hominids (like Neanderthals or homo erectus) had beat homo sapiens to the evolutionary punch, then they would likely be acting just like we do. Maybe they would never understand why, or have a reason for it, but an extremely complicated intelligent mind tends to go haywire and act contrary to what the rest of the group thinks is normal.


I'm talking about the idea I've heard all my life that humans are born as a fallen, degraded, sinful, hades-bound  creature who only gains any good qualities when he accepts Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 26, 2021)

1gr8buildit said:


> Religion uses the word evil more so than my definition exists. There is evil in the world, but not to the extent that religion uses it. Religion needs to embellish the word to contrast it's agenda. That sounds bad coming from a believer, however I use the word religion in a negative sense. I could call some democrats evil, or the media whom is trying to control how you think by feeding you what diet they have cooked up in order to brain wash you into what ever is their owner's agenda. A serial killer would be called evil.... However, evil as I define it, as most would define it.... is not very common. Our natures are self serving. Is that evil? We consider ourselves civil, a society of good people. Let me assure you we are not, including the religious. If we were to go without access to food or water for 6 days, no help in sight,  you would see a different humanity. People would kill to feed their kids. I personally think the word evil is an over played word. The contrast of good and evil for me is more of good contrast bad. Evil, exists,  but not the extent that religion poses


This sorta reminds me of how man paints his enemies. Enemies in war and in politics. It helps an agenda if we see the other side as evil. The same with other races, religions, or cultures; past, present, and future. Paint a certain group as evil makes it easier to hate them.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 26, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm talking about the idea I've heard all my life that humans are born as a fallen, degraded, sinful, hades-bound  creature who only gains any good qualities when he accepts Jesus.


 
Because without that idea Christianity would be out of business.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2021)

Yes evil is a thing.
Its a descriptive word. Hot/cold, near/far, pretty/ugly, admirable/evil.........


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I've always had issues with the mainstream Christian belief that humans are inherently evil as the default position, and have to be saved in order to be good. From what I see, there are good folks and evil folks, and going to church doesn't have much sway either way.


It strikes me as a very man made concept.
Being perfectly honest.... I feel its a man made con job.


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> Theologically speaking, evil is anything that is contrary to God's nature and commands.
> 
> Good is a person.



What exists that's outside of God's nature or commands?


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Prior to humanity there was no out of sync with the then order of things ( and therefore no disorder was possible regards the human context).
> 
> With reference to man's measure of evil as a thing, evil did not exit before humanity, because mainly man did not exist. But  also and more I propose that nothing created that I am aware had the will to oppose or get out of order with whatever order there was prior to humanity. Every thing fell into the order. Humanity has a penchant to question order and to experiment itself out of it...just to see what will happen. Humanity is a tool maker, an artisan, an artist able to question, forego and/or create order (s).
> 
> ...





> If man did this


Man does do this 
We just evolved the brain capabilities to be farmers and cattlemen and fish farm owners and chicken farmers etc. out of necessity  or we would have wiped out every species on the planet. We are the greatest killing machines of all the animals.
And that includes the killing of other humans for a multitude of reasons including enjoyment. Its that enjoyment part etc. that lead us to create the concept of "evil" to describe levels or reasons for the killing that we do.
Kill a cow elk and gonna grill some steaks? Please call me!!
Going downtown and killing some hookers and dumping their bodies in the river?
I'm gonna pass on that.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 26, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What exists that's outside of God's nature or commands?


Well aint that a doozy of a question.
I just got back from Venice La. Caught some nice redfish etc.  Will post pics when they get e:mailed  to me.


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## Spotlite (Sep 26, 2021)

> Theologically speaking, evil is anything that is contrary to God's nature and commands.
> 
> Good is a person.





ambush80 said:


> What exists that's outside of God's nature or commands?


Considering the discussions concerning free will / predestination / predetermined, the answer to your question is going to be very interesting, if you get one.

The predestination folks tell us that everything is ordained / ordered (that means commanded??) by God (including evil). How can evil be contrary to His commands when He commands it?

Good is a person? Theologically speaking - there’s nothing good outside of God. I remember reading “glory be to men!”.


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## Spotlite (Sep 26, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Well aint that a doozy of a question.
> I just got back from Venice La. Caught some nice redfish etc.  Will post pics when they get e:mailed  to me.


Did you have any keepers?? Some good eating!!


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## ambush80 (Sep 26, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> Well aint that a doozy of a question.
> I just got back from Venice La. Caught some nice redfish etc.  Will post pics when they get e:mailed  to me.





Spotlite said:


> Considering the discussions concerning free will / predestination / predetermined, the answer to your question is going to be very interesting, if you get one.
> 
> The predestination folks tell us that everything is ordained / ordered (that means commanded??) by God (including evil). How can evil be contrary to His commands when He commands it?
> 
> Good is a person? Theologically speaking - there’s nothing good outside of God. I remember reading “glory be to men!”.



I Have a feeling I know what Gem is gonna say but it's still fun to hear it.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 27, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What exists that's outside of God's nature or commands?


Nothing comes to mind.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 27, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What exists that's outside of God's nature or commands?



true! Nothing exists that god/nature/the laws of  the universe won't allow to exist. 
Anything else is a figment of our human imagination. Yes, that covers a lot of real estate obviously, considering that every human has an unlimited imagination.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Considering the discussions concerning free will / predestination / predetermined, the answer to your question is going to be very interesting, if you get one.
> 
> The predestination folks tell us that everything is ordained / ordered (that means commanded??) by God (including evil). How can evil be contrary to His commands when He commands it?
> 
> Good is a person? Theologically speaking - there’s nothing good outside of God. I remember reading “glory be to men!”.


Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
13 Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked? 
14 Enjoy prosperity while you can, but when hard times strike, realize that both come from God. Remember that nothing is certain in this life.

Ecclesiastes 9:12 
Moreover, no one knows when their hour will come: As fish are caught in a cruel net, or birds are taken in a snare, so people are trapped by evil times that fall unexpectedly upon them.

Where does this bad/evil or just un-good come from that God made crooked?
Perhaps life is a bit of God, Satan, man, Mother Nature, happenstance, and fate. 
But where do we put the percentages? God 90%, Satan 5%, man 2%, and the rest make up the 3%?


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ecclesiastes 7:13-14
> 13 Consider what God has done: Who can straighten what he has made crooked?
> 14 Enjoy prosperity while you can, but when hard times strike, realize that both come from God. Remember that nothing is certain in this life.
> 
> ...


Regarding gods, It would seem that Evil is the creation and will of an all powerful all knowing deity.


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## stringmusic (Sep 27, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I'm talking about the idea I've heard all my life that humans are born as a fallen, degraded, sinful, hades-bound  creature


What would you call a human being who sins then? Every human has sinned and when it comes to who can enter God’s presence there is no scale or number of sins issue. There has to be atonement for any and all sins and that is where Jesus’ sacrifice comes in.



> who only gains any good qualities when he accepts Jesus.


I don’t know anybody that believes that. I think everyone knows that sinful humans can live mostly moral lives. Putting your faith in Jesus as your Savior and sacrifice for your sins is the point whether you have 1 or 100 sins. 

Jesus didn’t come to make bad people good,  He came to make dead people live.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2021)

stringmusic said:


> What would you call a human being who sins then? Every human has sinned and when it comes to who can enter God’s presence there is no scale or number of sins issue. There has to be atonement for any and all sins and that is where Jesus’ sacrifice comes in.
> 
> 
> I don’t know anybody that believes that. I think everyone knows that sinful humans can live mostly moral lives. Putting your faith in Jesus as your Savior and sacrifice for your sins is the point whether you have 1 or 100 sins.
> ...


While I agree, we've had folks on here say that one must have God in order to have morals and be good. Plus on the religious forums some say you must be good as well as saved.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2021)

stringmusic said:


> What would you call a human being who sins then? Every human has sinned and when it comes to who can enter God’s presence there is no scale or number of sins issue. There has to be atonement for any and all sins and that is where Jesus’ sacrifice comes in.
> 
> 
> I don’t know anybody that believes that. I think everyone knows that sinful humans can live mostly moral lives. Putting your faith in Jesus as your Savior and sacrifice for your sins is the point whether you have 1 or 100 sins.
> ...


A human being who sins is a human being. "Sin" is the religious excuse as to why we act like we do. No different than "free will". Religion gives the impression that there is something above sin. Many people spend their entire lives feeling guilty for acting like humans.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 27, 2021)

Some folks on here have said it just takes a belief in any god to be good. If that's the case then it makes me think that would be based on fear and not love.

Being good should be based on love and not fear. That's one of the things Jesus taught.

It's kind of sad, no matter who one believes in, if doing good is based on the fear of the consequences of being evil.
This fear thing was taught to me growing up. It started with Santa Clause as a reason to be good. I was never taught as a small child to be good for love. At least not until I got old enough to learn it in Church.


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## stringmusic (Sep 27, 2021)

bullethead said:


> A human being who sins is a human being. "Sin" is the religious excuse as to why we act like we do. No different than "free will". Religion gives the impression that there is something above sin. Many people spend their entire lives feeling guilty for acting like humans.


I’d like to see that argument used in a courtroom. 

“Your honor I was doing what humans do when I robbed that guy” 

If secular society didn’t believe sin (or whatever you want to call it) existed, there would be no need for a court system. 

We’ve been through this many times, but I still find the attempted explanation of good/evil from a secular view to be completely arbitrary and subjective, I also realize it has to be in that worldview.


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## stringmusic (Sep 27, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> While I agree, we've had folks on here say that one must have God in order to have morals and be good. Plus on the religious forums some say you must be good as well as saved.


I’m sure we can always find somebody that believes something, I just don’t think it’s the mainstream view of anybody who’s thought about it for more than two seconds.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 27, 2021)

stringmusic said:


> I’d like to see that argument used in a courtroom.
> 
> “Your honor I was doing what humans do when I robbed that guy”
> 
> ...


The difference is that we have a legal code of the US and the state you reside in. Crime and sin are two different things. Sin  to most people is a transgression of two thousand year old Hebrew religious law. We don't live in ancient Canaan, we live under our code of law. You can no more apply Biblical sin to a court case here than the ancient Hebrews could have applied old Assyrian law in their courts.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2021)

stringmusic said:


> I’d like to see that argument used in a courtroom.
> 
> “Your honor I was doing what humans do when I robbed that guy”
> 
> ...


Nobody ever said that humans being human is a court defense. We are held to human standards which as you very well know vary widely between humanity. We have laws.

Your sin/court analogy has absolutely nothing to do with one another and nobody but you suggested that it did. 

Can you name a court case where anyone was convicted of having another god before "god"?
Or, taking the lord's name in vain or not honoring thy father and mother?
You need to find better excuses


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## Spotlite (Sep 27, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> While I agree, we've had folks on here say that one must have God in order to have morals and be good. Plus on the religious forums some say you must be good as well as saved.


We’ve had folks say a lot of their opinions on here.


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## 1gr8buildit (Sep 27, 2021)

I don't actually like the way I often refer to myself on here... as "a believer". I don't like that. I don't "believe" that my faith is based on belief of a certain standard. When pushed into a corner, I actually see it as chosen. I was chosen in that he revealed himself to me. On one hand, it's the same thing... on the other hand, very different. Now, to the thread topic. A god that would create man, then judge him, sentence him to suffer eternity for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, because he failed to believe he existed due to his lack of showing himself, I would consider this evil. The concept of he11 for nonbelievers is evil


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 28, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Nobody ever said that humans being human is a court defense. We are held to human standards which as you very well know vary widely between humanity. We have laws.
> 
> Your sin/court analogy has absolutely nothing to do with one another and nobody but you suggested that it did.
> 
> ...


Scene in prison cell:
"What you in here fo?"
"Making a graven image. How about you?"
"Fishing on Sunday."


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Scene in prison cell:
> "What you in here fo?"
> "Making a graven image. How about you?"
> "Fishing on Sunday."


Lolol so true.
I went back and reread my initial statement which included <"Sin" is the religious excuse as to why we act like we do.>  It is clear that I said "the religious". And String has to re-stuff his strawman and throw in something about using the excuse in court full well overlooking that his claim can be used both ways. 
Humans are held accountable by and answer to other humans for unlawful deeds. Sin is a totally different thing made to associate humans having to answer to a god.
Maybe a good excuse at the Pearly Gates could be " well its all Adam's fault"?


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## RegularJoe (Sep 28, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... Being good should be based on love and not fear...


There are some folks that are motivated to be 'good' with who/whatever his/her 'god' is out of just simple gratitude, alone.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 28, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> There are some folks that are motivated to be 'good' with who/whatever his/her 'god' is out of just simple gratitude, alone.


I would agree and I wish I personally would have been taught to be good for nothing.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 28, 2021)

That was sort of a joke,lol. Seriously though it seems like we are taught to be good to receive rewards or out of fear.


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## Spotlite (Sep 28, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Scene in prison cell:
> "What you in here fo?"
> "Making a graven image. How about you?"
> "Fishing on Sunday."


Or,

“What you in here for”?
“Stealing. How about you?”
“Me too”
“We should just tell them there’s a religious excuse as to why we act like we do”

Maybe that’s what he meant by saying he’d like to see that argument in court?


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Or,
> 
> “What you in here for”?
> “Stealing. How about you?”
> ...


I doubt String would elude to anything religious negatively.


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## bullethead (Sep 28, 2021)

Look at how the laws vary within our own country. Out in California some cities passed ordinances that allow people to literally steal, take without paying for, items up to but not over $1000. The victims are not even supposed to report it to police as the police will do nothing about it. 
The above is an example to show that even within our own nation how varied laws are. People make the laws.
In coal country,  someone is eating lead for stealing tic-tacs. Period.
"Sin" got nothing to do with either.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Look at how the laws vary within our own country. Out in California some cities passed ordinances that allow people to literally steal, take without paying for, items up to but not over $1000. The victims are not even supposed to report it to police as the police will do nothing about it.
> The above is an example to show that even within our own nation how varied laws are. People make the laws.
> In coal country,  someone is eating lead for stealing tic-tacs. Period.
> "Sin" got nothing to do with either.


Do you mean Prop 47 in Cal?


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## bullethead (Sep 29, 2021)

Israel said:


> Do you mean Prop 47 in Cal?


Yes.
That downgraded theft from a felony to misdemeanor but the kicker is "selective enforcement".


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 29, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some folks on here have said it just takes a belief in any god to be good. If that's the case then it makes me think that would be based on fear and not love.
> 
> Being good should be based on love and not fear. That's one of the things Jesus taught.
> 
> ...



Yet being "good" based on love alone* will still get you eternal torment *if you don't accept Jesus - yes, that very Jesus who says you shouldn't be good out of fear. 
Quite a contradiction there IMHO. The only way that the church (or any religion) can really teach that you should be good out of love is to take punishment off the table. 

So it seems to me that people with no fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife - or the hope of a reward whether here on earth or in the afterlife - are the only people best motivated to do good just for the sake of doing good. Atheists who devote their life to good works would be tossed into the eternal pit of fire along with the billions of people who don't accept Jesus, according to the Christian church. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 29, 2021)

About Prop 47: how do we know the exact amount somebody stole_ until_ the cops actually arrest the thief?  In other words a thief is heading for the door with a rucksack full of items. The rucksack could contain canned vegetables or it could be full of high end electronics, jewelry, lobster or who knows what.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 29, 2021)

1gr8buildit said:


> I don't actually like the way I often refer to myself on here... as "a believer". I don't like that. I don't "believe" that my faith is based on belief of a certain standard. When pushed into a corner, I actually see it as chosen. I was chosen in that he revealed himself to me. On one hand, it's the same thing... on the other hand, very different. Now, to the thread topic. A god that would create man, then judge him, sentence him to suffer eternity for ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, because he failed to believe he existed due to his lack of showing himself, I would consider this evil. The concept of he11 for nonbelievers is evil



I totally get that last part. IMHO judgement and the subsequent eternal punishment is the ultimate "do as I say, not as I do" from god. You the believer are expected/commanded to be forgiving and non vengeful to the extent that an imperfect human can be, yet god himself will dole out the most tortuous & painful punishment for all of eternity. Yes, I get it - god doesn't have to be a role model and you don't have to like him, you just have to love him.....or else!


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 29, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree and I wish I personally would have been taught to be good for nothing.


 
Good for nothing? mission accomplished then, according to my probation officer.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 29, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet being "good" based on love alone* will still get you eternal torment *if you don't accept Jesus - yes, that very Jesus who says you shouldn't be good out of fear.
> Quite a contradiction there IMHO. The only way that the church (or any religion) can really teach that you should be good out of love is to take punishment off the table.
> 
> So it seems to me that people with no fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife - or the hope of a reward whether here on earth or in the afterlife - are the only people best motivated to do good just for the sake of doing good. Atheists who devote their life to good works would be tossed into the eternal pit of fire along with the billions of people who don't accept Jesus, according to the Christian church. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.


I've had Christian forum members on here tell me they didn't see the point in believing if there was no eternal punishment. That eternal life wasn't enough to make them want to believe.

Jesus does use some examples like the Separating of the Sheep and Goats to show that good vs evil does matter among people who say they know God. Jesus more or less says you may know me but if you didn't feed the sick, then I don't know you.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 29, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet being "good" based on love alone* will still get you eternal torment *if you don't accept Jesus - yes, that very Jesus who says you shouldn't be good out of fear.
> Quite a contradiction there IMHO. The only way that the church (or any religion) can really teach that you should be good out of love is to take punishment off the table.
> 
> So it seems to me that people with no fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife - or the hope of a reward whether here on earth or in the afterlife - are the only people best motivated to do good just for the sake of doing good. Atheists who devote their life to good works would be tossed into the eternal pit of fire along with the billions of people who don't accept Jesus, according to the Christian church. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.


My main gripe with the Christian religion has always been this. 

God created man in his own image, then set him up for failure. The default position for man is burning in a fiery eternal torment unless he actively seeks repentance for acting exactly like God programmed him to act. Regardless of whether he is a very good man, or an evil man. God comes close to being a kid with a magnifying glass and an anthill on a sunny day in this scenario.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 30, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> Yet being "good" based on love alone* will still get you eternal torment *if you don't accept Jesus - yes, that very Jesus who says you shouldn't be good out of fear.
> Quite a contradiction there IMHO. The only way that the church (or any religion) can really teach that you should be good out of love is to take punishment off the table.
> 
> So it seems to me that people with no fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife - or the hope of a reward whether here on earth or in the afterlife - are the only people best motivated to do good just for the sake of doing good. Atheists who devote their life to good works would be tossed into the eternal pit of fire along with the billions of people who don't accept Jesus, according to the Christian church. That doesn't seem right or fair to me.


The love that concerns neither fear (terror) nor reward (accolade) is grounded in reverential awe of The Holy God.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 30, 2021)

1gr8buildit said:


> Here is my view of what I think the bible says, and you will never see it anywhere else. There is a he11. It is not for unbelievers. It is for those whom have been given eternal life and have been deceived by the imposter Christ, called the antichrist. Those take the mark. It is those whom, in revelation, are condemned to he11. Just like the fallen angels in the bible... they are eternal beings. Something has to be done with them. Of them it is said, better to have never been born. Those non eternal humans will simply be no more in death. Now, as to whom those are that take the mark, are deceived from the one whom stole Jesus identity... that would be a particular group whom claims to be Christian. Many will say to me on that day.....What needs to be pondered is whether this is a future event.... or a current Jesus belief system? Recall that the imposter Christ will claim to be God.... One belief system already has their Jesus claiming to be God.


1g - You have developed the above view thru examining the protestant Bible cover to cover, correct?


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 30, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> The love that concerns neither fear (terror) nor reward (accolade) is grounded in reverential awe of The Holy God.


 
Call me skeptical but I think that once you are aware that eternal torment is always on the table, that fear will _always _be in the back of your mind - in your subconscious - and influence your "love".


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 30, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> 1g - You have developed the above view thru examining the protestant Bible cover to cover, correct?


 
he very well may have. I would venture to say that all the different denominations and schools of thought that make up Christianity developed from people that were very familiar with the same bible everyone else reads. Everyone has a slightly different view and interpretation of what is written. But being a very lengthy and often contradictory book, that would be expected.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> The love that concerns neither fear (terror) nor reward (accolade) is grounded in reverential awe of The Holy God.


I would agree but why are children taught this differently than that in Christian households? I was taught the concept of fear and rewards through Christianity as far back as I can remember concerning God and Christianity.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2021)

I guess maybe Jehovah Witnesses show love more for the right reasons than most other denominations. They don't have a fear of He11 or even the reward of Heaven.
Just the reward of eternal life from death.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 30, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> Call me skeptical but I think that once you are aware that eternal torment is always on the table, that fear will _always _be in the back of your mind - in your subconscious - and influence your "love".


With regeneration comes reverential awe, with reverential awe comes faith.  Faith is not skeptical of God's power.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 30, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree but why are children taught this differently than that in Christian household? I was taught the concept of fear and rewards through Christianity as far back as I can remember concerning God and Christianity.


You are asking me to demonstrate my omniscience.
  __________ There it is.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> With regeneration comes reverential awe, with reverential awe comes faith.  Faith is not skeptical of God's power.


Would you say that  regeneration brings the awareness of why to be good? Therefore Christian families who teach kids to be good out of fear and rewards haven't been regenerated?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2021)

Reading this;
"The unifying problem with all of these techniques is that they won’t bring lasting change to anyone. As a parent, I do set some boundaries in place and let my kids know about the consequences of their disobedience. I also reward them at times when I see them doing something positive and I may have bribed them at times in a tough spot. But I don’t believe fear, manipulation, rewards, guilt or shame are going to change anyone’s heart."

Yet how does one teach this to a child who has not yet had a regeneration?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 30, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say that  regeneration brings the awareness of why to be good? Therefore Christian families who teach kids to be good out of fear and rewards haven't been regenerated?


I said the former.  I did not say the latter.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 30, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Is 'evil'
> (1) a 'thing,'
> (2) simply the absence of 'good,' or
> (3) something entirely different than "(1)" or "(2)"
> ...



See C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 30, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> From what I see, there are good folks and evil folks, and going to church doesn't have much sway either way.



From the Christian perspective that's not an accurate presentation of what's taught in scripture. That framework says there are the holy and Un-holy  I know a lot of good folks, but I ain't never met a holy one, not even in the church.  None-the-less, that's the appropriate context for that religion.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2021)

There is one aspect that if you love Jesus, you will keep his commandments. Another concept is fruit of the Spirit. Maybe between our spirit and the Spirit, we will show our Love more than having just our spirit.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 30, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess maybe Jehovah Witnesses show love more for the right reasons than most other denominations. They don't have a fear of He11 or even the reward of Heaven.
> Just the reward of eternal life from death.



okay I am totally confused by that last sentence. Are you saying an eternal life that is just like the actual life here on earth? Wouldn't they have to die first to get this "eternal life" and then they would be like a zombie and freak people out. I don't get what you're saying here.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> okay I am totally confused by that last sentence. Are you saying an eternal life that is just like the actual life here on earth? Wouldn't they have to die first to get this "eternal life" and then they would be like a zombie and freak people out. I don't get what you're saying here.


The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus, you will have everlasting life. Thus the opposite would be everlasting death. I'm not exactly sure where they believe that life will be or in what physical state they will be in. I don't think they believe it will be in Heaven though for most of them.
The main point was that they are Christians trying to do good for the love of God. I guess after thinking about it though they are doing it for the reward of eternal life. But they aren't doing it out of fear of He11. It could be from the fear of everlasting death though.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 1, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Bible says that if you believe in Jesus, you will have everlasting life. Thus the opposite would be everlasting death. I'm not exactly sure where they believe that life will be or in what physical state they will be in. I don't think they believe it will be in Heaven though for most of them.
> The main point was that they are Christians trying to do good for the love of God. I guess after thinking about it though they are doing it for the reward of eternal life. But they aren't doing it out of fear of He11. It could be from the fear of everlasting death though.



everlasting death (without the torment of course) shouldn't scare anyone since if you're truly dead, you wouldn't be conscious to even notice that you are dead.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 2, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> everlasting death (without the torment of course) shouldn't scare anyone since if you're truly dead, you wouldn't be conscious to even notice that you are dead.


True, but  some  folks who believe you die when you die still fear death.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 2, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> True, but  some  folks who believe you die when you die still fear death.



maybe it's the concept of the complete and final unknown. When I think about I've been alive for my entire life so it's hard to imagine not existing - having no consciousness. Like I've said before, when I die I'll go back to doing what I did before I was born - a whole lot of nothing.


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## ky55 (Oct 2, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> maybe it's the concept of the complete and final unknown. When I think about I've been alive for my entire life so it's hard to imagine not existing - having no consciousness. Like I've said before, when I die I'll go back to doing what I did before I was born - a whole lot of nothing.


“I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it.”​Mark Twain


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## RegularJoe (Oct 3, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... I guess after thinking about it though they are doing it for the reward of eternal life. But they aren't doing it out of fear of He11. It could be from the fear of everlasting death though.





oldfella1962 said:


> everlasting death (without the torment of course) shouldn't scare anyone since if you're truly dead, you wouldn't be conscious to even notice that you are dead.


Art & Oldfella ~ Couldn't it be that at least some folks, are motivated simply by gratitude for being mortally alive?   
For clarity, what i am suggesting is that some folks may sense that there kinda has to be a 'higher power' of some sort and that they sense the they are, in fact, alive (i.e., not illusory - of course even that could be stated to be some version of 'alive,' i spose : ) .... and that they are simply grateful to said 'higher power' and thereby motivated to serve it/him/her/whatever without necessarily any motivation via:
1. Trying to earn an eternal life in some sort of 'heaven;' &/or
2.  Love for the 'higher power,' &/or
3. Fear of some version of temporary or forever punishment?


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 3, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Art & Oldfella ~ Couldn't it be that at least some folks, are motivated simply by gratitude for being mortally alive?
> For clarity, what i am suggesting is that some folks may sense that there kinda has to be a 'higher power' of some sort and that they sense the they are, in fact, alive (i.e., not illusory - of course even that could be stated to be some version of 'alive,' i spose : ) .... and that they are simply grateful to said 'higher power' and thereby motivated to serve it/him/her/whatever without necessarily any motivation via:
> 1. Trying to earn an eternal life in some sort of 'heaven;' &/or
> 2.  Love for the 'higher power,' &/or
> 3. Fear of some version of temporary or forever punishment?



I for one am definitely grateful for being alive, and fully aware that my time of death is coming, and that I only get one shot at life. I don't see the need for any higher motivation or larger purpose to my being alive. That said life in general (for all species) is often difficult so I don't see why an eternal punishment  - or reward - is even necessary. An afterlife seems to be a manmade concept.


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