# Obey God?



## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Ephesians 2:2
You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.

How does one obey God?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Looking at how we obey God? To be good and not evil. Even though we were washed, scripture paints a good vs evil thing concerning salvation to a certain extent.

James 2:24
You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Maybe it's by loving and caring. Helping and forgiving or is it to stop being greedy, jealous, angry, a cheater, lying, fornicator, or a drunkard?

What good was the washing if I can't actually never stop sinning? What happens at the resurrection if I'm saved but separated as a goat for my life of sinning?

When the angels come and separate the wicked from the righteous?
Does the blood of Jesus give me the imputed righteousness to qualify?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2018)

Back to obedience, perhaps it's more than commandments and keeping Law. I mean if Christ died to cover us for that aspect of obedience, maybe now our obedience is something differnent.

Spreading the Gospel maybe or going to Church maybe. Confession maybe. In the sheep and goats separation it seemed to be a lot about not helping.
There were those who didn't help feed, clothe, and visit vs. those who did. That that was a big part of evil vs. righteousness for a transition into the Kingdom.

What I'm getting at is I can see why people ask; Is believing enough?
Is it really that easy? Especially if you believe God lead you to Jesus.
I would think that to be enough.
If God lead me to Jesus then I'd think He would keep me but then I read about obedience and evil vs righteousness as the test for salvation.

Ephesians 2:4-5
But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,  5made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved!

Ephesians 2:8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,   9not by works, so that no one can boast.


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## RegularJoe (Jan 7, 2019)

.


Artfuldodger said:


> What I'm getting at is I can see why people ask; Is believing enough?
> Is it really that easy? Especially if you believe God lead you to Jesus.
> I would think that to be enough.
> If God lead me to Jesus then I'd think He would keep me but then I read about obedience and evil vs righteousness as the test for salvation.
> ...


For me ... here is how I have found that I find myself associating Believing, & Obedience (aka "works").

Regarding BELIEVING: I accept that being Saved is 
as simple as believing Christ is my Savior, etc.
And, AT THE SAME TIME 
in order for me to authentically believe I must know WHY.

Regarding OBEDIENCE: In the wake of BOTH, above
I then resultingly end up being so grateful that I find myself _routinely_ trying to do what I can do to be obedient ... not out of guilt or need to serve Him,
just purely out of gratitude.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2019)

RegularJoe said:


> .
> 
> For me ... here is how I have found that I find myself associating Believing, & Obedience (aka "works").
> 
> ...



How would you describe this obedience? Love, helping, forgiving others?

Maybe not cheating, stealing, overeating, anger, or being jealous.

Worshiping, going to Church, witnessing, or visiting prisoners?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 8, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does one obey God?


By being in Christ.


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## RegularJoe (Jan 8, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> How would you describe this obedience?


Apologies in advance if the following seems on the vague side... 
I personally dislike vagueness, & yet, 
this is only as precise as I am capable of replying.

For me, what _I_ have to do is _try_ to keep aware
(& I am not saying I do a very good job at this :- )
of whatever my most current _collective_ understanding is of how to serve Him,
wherever, 
at any moment that I think about it, 
I am.

I see me as fully responsible for keeping my above, so called :- ), 
'collective understanding' current .... 
_some examples _of means that help me do this is:
*1.*  Review the spritually, including atheistic, posts (all sub-topics) on GON.
*2.*  Spend 5 minutes a day in some kind of Scripture, e.g., www.TheBible.bz
*3.*  Prioritize/ask the most important Q.s, 
of the ba-zillion that emerge in my mind and heart, 
of thoughtful folks such as you Artfuldodger,
on GON or church or wherever.
Then spend time thinking thru the answers ... 
this SURE helps me see what I have been missing.  
I REALLY benefit from the thoughts/questions of others.


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## BassMan31 (Jan 9, 2019)

Salvation is in Christ alone. The thing is far above and greater than my ability to add or detract.


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## j_seph (Jan 9, 2019)

This comes to mind in obedience.
Seek what we are told to seek, and seek counsel before you do something, which is where I fail at often. I actually know one preacher that is not much older than me and he will pray about when and sometimes even where just to go buy groceries.

Matthew 6:33

33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.


Proverbs 11:14
14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.


Proverbs 19:20-21 

20 Hear counsel, and receive instruction, that thou mayest be wise in thy latter end.

21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the Lord, that shall stand.


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## formula1 (Jan 12, 2019)

The heart knowledge that you have been set free by your heavenly Father completely transforms who you are.  Obedience then is not a word or a way to measure yourself but it is new life in honor of the one who made you free.

Most of us struggle to fully comprehend our freedom in the Spirit. Indeed it is difficult to see when almost everything in this world works against it.

Perhaps we should consider preparation for eternal life we are called to and not to the one we exist in! Perhaps that is obedience!


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

BassMan31 said:


> Salvation is in Christ alone. The thing is far above and greater than my ability to add or detract.



Ephesians 2:2
You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God. 

Maybe asked this way; how does one obey the devil? The devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

formula1 said:


> The heart knowledge that you have been set free by your heavenly Father completely transforms who you are.  Obedience then is not a word or a way to measure yourself but it is new life in honor of the one who made you free.
> 
> Most of us struggle to fully comprehend our freedom in the Spirit. Indeed it is difficult to see when almost everything in this world works against it.
> 
> Perhaps we should consider preparation for eternal life we are called to and not to the one we exist in! Perhaps that is obedience!



I do feel I have that freedom until I read Ephesians 2:2. I want to believe the washing took the place of the Devil working in my heart to make me not obey God.

I would like to have that yoke of slavery removed. I'm usually there until I read a certain passage on works and the resurrection. Probably a part of my early childhood indoctrination.

As you are aware, I still get on the religious roller coaster. Just not as often.


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## BassMan31 (Jan 12, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:2
> You used to live in sin, just like the rest of the world, obeying the devil--the commander of the powers in the unseen world. He is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.
> 
> Maybe asked this way; how does one obey the devil? The devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God.



I see this as a simple thing: I once existed only in sin, now I don't. It was not something I did, but something did for me.

Should one not obey God, they obey the devil. They who aren't for the kingdom are against it. There are no, "fence sitters." Those who are saved have, by definition, obeyed God. Those who do not obey God are not saved and, by definition, obey the devil.

I would step back and examine why you're conflating a fairly trivial doctrine. God is not the author of confusion.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

BassMan31 said:


> I see this as a simple thing: I once existed only in sin, now I don't. It was not something I did, but something did for me.
> 
> Should one not obey God, they obey the devil. They who aren't for the kingdom are against it. There are no, "fence sitters." Those who are saved have, by definition, obeyed God. Those who do not obey God are not saved and, by definition, obey the devil.
> 
> I would step back and examine why you're conflating a fairly trivial doctrine. God is not the author of confusion.



I have thought about the "believing" being the obedience. Some verses though sometimes make me feel that there is more. The Ephesians passage says we used to live that way. That by grace we have been saved from the wrath of living that way.

I wonder why Paul said the devil is the spirit at work in the hearts of those who refuse to obey God? If the obey part is just believing? If salvation is from God. If "all" is from God, why did Paul provide so much instruction? Why isn't that the end of it? We are saved, it's all from God. Why did we need Paul?

What really got me looking at obeying God was not even the Ephesians passage. It was reading about the resurrection of good and evil. I started wondering why it isn't the resurrection of the saved and unsaved.
The sheep and the goats separation. The goats never helped, fed, or clothed the people therefore never helped, fed, or clothed Jesus.
The goats never visited Jesus in prison.

Keep my commandments, love thy neighbor, forgive others, walk in obedience, stand firm until the end, love your enemies, do the will of my Father, not only hear but do the word of God, and justified by works and not by faith alone.

I do understand that we are a new creation. Yet I still see and find many verses about obedience. Obedience to God appears to be more than believing. More like following the great commandment and forgiving others.

How can I add or detract from these scriptures when I know that they are there? How can I understand a resurrection of the good and evil if the reality is it's a resurrection of the saved and unsaved?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

Jesus taught us to do the will of his Father. Should I assume Jesus is  referring to believing? Is that what Jesus meant when he said to  act on the Words of scripture instead of just reading them? That obedience means believing?

All that means just believing? If believing brings "all that". If believing brings all the obedience, then why all the instruction? From Jesus, from James, from Paul?
I can see grace fueled obedience but it still appears to be more than believing.

Even though we are saved by grace and not of works. Even though the one who believes has everlasting life. The obedience requirement isn't optional.
So if it's not optional and such a big part of the foundation of Christianity, what is it?

John 14:15
"If you love me, obey my commandments.

Obedience?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

How much does obedience to God have to do with our Salvation? Now again I know people will say I'm looking at it all wrong, Christians don't need to dwell on sin, just the Grace of God. The obedience to God will be evident by our fruit. I understand all that and I understand grace, faith, and repentance.
What I don't understand is why are commandments and obedience such a big part of Paul's teaching? 

1 Corinthians 7:19 
For it makes no difference whether or not a man has been circumcised. The important thing is to keep God's commandments.

Romans 7:12 
So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 

Romans 8:7 
The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

My other side, and it's all from Paul;

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 8:38-39

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." I Corinthians 15:22

"Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ" Galatians 4:7

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." Romans 5:9

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" Romans 8:1

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." Romans 8:2

"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together." Romans 8:17

"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. "II Corinthians 5:17

Galatians 2:16 - "man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ... for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."
    Ephesians 2:8-9 - "not of works"
    2 Timothy 1:9 - "not according to our works"
    Titus 3:5 - "not by works of righteousness which we have done"
    Romans 3:21-22 - "by the works of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight"
    Romans 4:4-5 - "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt."
    Isaiah 64:6 - "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 21, 2019)

obedience is how you show God you love him     I john 5:3


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 21, 2019)

Salvation is a gift IF we truly believe that Jesus was God's son and died and rose again.    Obedience, though, is a choice we make in showing God that we love Him and appreciate what He's done.     Jesus Himself said that the Law would not pass away (even though Christians typically believe He did away with it) and Jesus said that if you keep the commandments OF GOD, and teach others to keep them, YOU WILL BE GREAT IN HEAVEN.


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## Jabberwock (Jan 22, 2019)

I believe that once we are (truly) saved, we will have evidence in our lives to reflect that, i.e. obedience to God and His commandments. 

James 2:18 - But someone will say, " You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 22, 2019)

good scripture, Jab.    James (the Lord's brother) recognized that our faith should have accompanying signs.     Like I've heard it said, "Obedience is the root of our salvation; it's the FRUIT of our salvation"


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

Isn't it kinda weird though or confusing that Salvation is given by grace and not anything we do, yet scripture reads like we have to be obedient to show proof that we received the free gift?

It's like God saying, "I'm going to give you this gift based on nothing you do. It has to be grace and not works or it's not grace. But, there is a but. If you don't remain obedient through works, I'll take my free gift away"

That's almost like God saying it actually isn't a free gift. That salvation actually "is" base on ones works. That is "is" from man.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

Then to complicate things even more, the poor Christian has to figure out exactly what sins he can't commit, what laws he has to keep, what ceremonies to keep, etc.

I thought Christ died for my inability of not being able to keep his Father's Law. Now I'm being told by Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles, that I must.

Even most Christians believe we must produce some fruit as proof. What the problem is, we can't agree on exactly what fruit and what quantity. One sin, fifty sins a week? Break one Law, break fifty Laws a week? Keep some of Paul's Church guidelines or all of Paul's guidelines?

It appears to be a conflicting enigma within Christianity.


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## welderguy (Jan 23, 2019)

Our righteousness is imputed.

Think of it as a change of garments.
Jesus took our robe of sin and put it on Himself.
He then put on us His robe of righteousness.
Now, forever, we are perfectly righteous in His sight.
NOTHING can or will change that. He decreed it.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

James 2:24    You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith alone.    Why would the Lord's brother say that?    It took Abraham actually making the trip to Mount Mariah going up the mountain and attempting to kill Isaac before God saw that his faith was genuine.   God could have stopped him once they got on their horses and headed that way, but He didn't.  (BTW, I love that the bible includes Abraham putting the wood on Isaac's back!   What a shadow of the sacrifice to come!)


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then to complicate things even more, the poor Christian has to figure out exactly what sins he can't commit, what laws he has to keep, what ceremonies to keep, etc.
> 
> I thought Christ died for my inability of not being able to keep his Father's Law. Now I'm being told by Jesus, Paul, and the other apostles, that I must.
> 
> ...



In Acts 15 the council comes up with the minimum set, SINCE GENTILES KNEW NOTHING OF THE LAW.    Acts 15:21 tells us that the Gentiles WOULD LEARN what God's desire is over time by listening to Moses' words on Sabbath.    BTW, in Acts 15, the discussion was NEVER about whether the Law was done away with, only if it was NECESSARY for salvation.    It wasn't.    Obedience was always from the heart.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Our righteousness is imputed.
> 
> Think of it as a change of garments.
> Jesus took our robe of sin and put it on Himself.
> ...



Did that make or change how we are to be obedient? If God elected someone three thousand years ago, was his obedience guidelines different from ours after the Cross? 
Did the Cross change how one was to obey God? When God elects an individual and imputes "His" righteousness, how does that effect how we show obedience?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

If the Cross didn't do away with how we were to be obedient, then we should still be obedient in the same way believers were before the Cross.
There are plenty of believers that say the Cross didn't "change" anything within time about obedience. That Noah obeyed God the same way as Abraham. That we obey God the same way David did.

Yet Paul tells us the Cross did something within time to change something about how we were to obey God.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

Jesus was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal (Northern tribes)    His death made a way for the lost sheep to come back.  Deut 30 says that God would scatter his people around the world like sheep....but that they would in later days return to obeying Him.    Obedience has always been Gods desire for his bride.   It's how we show Him Love.    

Guys, this is nothing to get upset over.   Obedience is not a salvation issue, but obedience does look to be the fruit of our salvation   (James 2  I John 5)   Salvation is a gift, if you endure to the end in faith.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the Cross didn't do away with how we were to be obedient, then we should still be obedient in the same way believers were before the Cross.
> There are plenty of believers that say the Cross didn't "change" anything within time about obedience. That Noah obeyed God the same way as Abraham. That we obey God the same way David did.
> 
> Yet Paul tells us the Cross did something within time to change something about how we were to obey God.



Also, we read in Acts where the only people who knew how to be obedient - JEWS - were being obedient, well after Jesus ascended.   In Acts 21 I believe, James tells Paul that there were "thousands of believing Jews in Jerusalem who were zealous of the Law".


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Jesus was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Isreal (Northern tribes)    His death made a way for the lost sheep to come back.  Deut 30 says that God would scatter his people around the world like sheep....but that they would in later days return to obeying Him.    Obedience has always been Gods desire for his bride.   It's how we show Him Love.
> 
> Guys, this is nothing to get upset over.   Obedience is not a salvation issue, but obedience does look to be the fruit of our salvation   (James 2  I John 5)   Salvation is a gift, if you endure to the end in faith.



Then there is a stipulation. One must endure to the end. My Church as a boy taught this stipulation. They taught this obedience  was the fruit. I will agree that somehow, somewhere this has changed over time.

Didn't James show this more than Paul? I can't read Ephesians 2 though and see the Cross part of Christ's mission as being only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Perhaps his teaching part was while he was on the earth.

In Ephesians 2, Paul says the Gentiles were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

That by the blood of Jesus, Gentiles have been brought near. That Jesus brought down the wall that separated the two. That Christ made the two groups one.

Jesus did this by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace.

Regardless of whom the wall divided, Jesus removed it. It then allowed the grafting in of Gentiles to the Commonwealth of Israel.
The only way this grafting could take place was if the law of commandments and decrees were abolished. That is why Jesus said he abolished it. Where the two could become one.

I'm not sure exactly how all this ties back in to our obedience. We still must be obedient. Romans 11 tells us if we quit believing. If we quit trusting in God, we can be removed from the grafting.

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either."


So maybe free grace doesn't exactly give us free reign. We still must be obedient. But if Jesus abolished the laws and decrees, what then is this obedience? Is it Paul's guidelines?

We are quick to say that commiting homosexuality is not being obedient to God. That we can't use the Old Testament to tell us that but since Paul told us it was wrong, then it is. So was it Paul who got word from God on the "New List?"
What women must wear, what sex we must sleep with, etc. Circumcision, Sabbath worship? Did Paul get to relay God's "new" guidelines of Obedience to Him?
If in fact the way of showing Obedience did change. And by what Jesus did on the cross, I must say it did.

But by what Paul says, maybe it didn't. Then he add even more obedience rules.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then there is a stipulation. One must endure to the end. My Church as a boy taught this stipulation. They taught this obedience  was the fruit. I will agree that somehow, somewhere this has changed over time.
> 
> Didn't James show this more than Paul? I can't read Ephesians 2 though and see the Cross part of Christ's mission as being only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Perhaps his teaching part was while he was on the earth.
> 
> ...



Hmmmm....according to God, His Law was perfect....and it was not to be added to or taken away from.   (BTW, Jews add to the Law, Gentiles take away from it)    As we know Jesus was against man's 'Dogma', which I believe is the greek work used in Collosians 2 that you may be referencing.    Jesus constantly reviled the Pharisees for their traditions, which they placed over God's commands and put too much weight on people.  (Matthew 23:2)


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm really glad I'm not an alcoholic or homosexual. I'd really have a hard time figuring all this out.
Christianity seems to appear as a great enigma or a catch 22. On one had we are saved by grace and not works. On the other had we must produce the fruits of obedience to "prove" we received the free gift.

The free gift of salvation given not based on works. Yet works are the proof you received the gift. Obedience is the proof you received the free gift.

Continuing  with an alcohol addiction or homosexuality after receiving the free gift is proof you didn't receive the free gift of salvation.

We should go so far as to shun you. But since we now think you never received salvation, we no longer have to shun you. You were a pagan all along. God never knew you. I can now sup with you again.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hmmmm....according to God, His Law was perfect....and it was not to be added to or taken away from.   (BTW, Jews add to the Law, Gentiles take away from it)    As we know Jesus was against man's 'Dogma', which I believe is the greek work used in Collosians 2 that you may be referencing.    Jesus constantly reviled the Pharisees for their traditions, which they placed over God's commands and put too much weight on people.  (Matthew 23:2)


 
What are your beliefs on this verse?

Ephesians 2:15 
by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace

katargēsas


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are your beliefs on this verse?
> 
> Ephesians 2:15
> by abolishing in His flesh the law of commandments and decrees. He did this to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace
> ...



As I mentioned in the previous reply, the word that is translated "commandments" is actually "Dogma"....which was the man-made traditions and rules of the Pharisees.   He (God) hated all that the rulers had added to His Law.   Jesus obviously did not nail the Law to the cross as His followers were still following it 30 years later (and for centuries later as Epiphanius said that there were Nazarenes in the 4th century who were believers in Jesus but were also "fettered" by the Law.   lol


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> As I mentioned in the previous reply, the word that is translated "commandments" is actually "Dogma"....which was the man-made traditions and rules of the Pharisees.   He (God) hated all that the rulers had added to His Law.   Jesus obviously did not nail the Law to the cross as His followers were still following it 30 years later (and for centuries later as Epiphanius said that there were Nazarenes in the 4th century who were believers in Jesus but were also "fettered" by the Law.   lol



Interesting concept of that passage and the Colossians 2 passage as well. I'll have to read it a few times with the same goggles you are wearing and see if I can see it in the same light. It's possible.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 23, 2019)

Lots of problems with translation as you might suspect, especially given 2000 years of separation from the originals.   I just confirmed in my Greek Interlinear (scripture4all.org) that Dogma is the greek word used there.    Paul would definitely not call God's Word "Dogma".   Anyway....if we never test things that we have been taught all our life, we will never realize that we've been handed down lies and errors.   Most assume that they were just lucky and born into perfect truth that is handed to them from the pulpit every week.   lol    I, too, was there until two years ago.   Hope I haven't offended any of you guys today.   And, like you, a lot of this stuff sounded strange to me when I first heard about it.  But, "ridicule, without research, is hypocrisy"       I didn't grow up observing Sabbath, so it was strange to me.   I grew up eating pork and thinking that Peter's Vision explained it perfectly, but now I know that Peter's Vision is the best proof that we are not to eat unclean food if we want to please God.   

Anyway, really enjoyed today's conversations.    Iron sharpens Iron...


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Lots of problems with translation as you might suspect, especially given 2000 years of separation from the originals.   I just confirmed in my Greek Interlinear (scripture4all.org) that Dogma is the greek word used there.    Paul would definitely not call God's Word "Dogma".   Anyway....if we never test things that we have been taught all our life, we will never realize that we've been handed down lies and errors.   Most assume that they were just lucky and born into perfect truth that is handed to them from the pulpit every week.   lol    I, too, was there until two years ago.   Hope I haven't offended any of you guys today.   And, like you, a lot of this stuff sounded strange to me when I first heard about it.  But, "ridicule, without research, is hypocrisy"       I didn't grow up observing Sabbath, so it was strange to me.   I grew up eating pork and thinking that Peter's Vision explained it perfectly, but now I know that Peter's Vision is the best proof that we are not to eat unclean food if we want to please God.
> 
> Anyway, really enjoyed today's conversations.    Iron sharpens Iron...



I was wondering where you were getting the Greek interpretations for dogma or lingering shadow.

Looked at Ephesians 2:15 on Scripture4All and it did shed light on Jesus abolishing(katargēsas) in the Flesh God's  Law(nomen) through commandments in the form of ordinance.(dogma)

On that site katargēsas means to nullify. So in the deeper look or delving, as you say, it does say dogma and not doctrine. Interesting.

It actually says dogma on Biblehub as well;

https://biblehub.com/lexicon/ephesians/2-15.htm

So then I guess the only thing Jesus died for in relation to removing the dividing wall mentioned in Ephesians 2  was abolishing dogma and not the actual commandments or Law of God.

Would everyone agree? Would someone like to look into it and comment?
Contained in ordinances, dogmasin , an opinion, (a public) decree


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2019)

16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body  that casts it  belongs to Christ. 

Impending things, the reality yet to come, a shadow of the things to come.

So, these things haven't came?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 24, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> 16Therefore let no one judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a festival, a New Moon, or a Sabbath. 17These are a shadow of the things to come, but the body  that casts it  belongs to Christ.
> 
> Impending things, the reality yet to come, a shadow of the things to come.
> 
> So, these things haven't came?



Paul states here, written well after Jesus had ascended, that they were a shadow of things to come.   Isaiah tells us plainly that we will still be celebrating festivals (Tabernacles in particular) throughout the millennium and also New moons and Sabbaths.   

You know, over the last 2000 years people have accused Paul, falsely, of preaching against Moses' Law and telling people not to circumcise their children (Acts 21) and people are still accusing Paul of the same thing today.   When Paul arrived in Jerusalem, James warned him that there were "thousands of Christ-believing Jews there who loved the Law" and that they had heard that Paul was preaching against Moses.   (Keep in mind, this was late in Paul's life, right before he was taken to Rome)   James said, "Just so that we can show them that THERE IS NOTHING TO WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD, we want you to do this...."     Then  he said, "that way they will all know that you, too, WALK UPRIGHT, KEEPING THE LAW"    What was the evidence of Paul walking "Upright"?   It was because he kept the law!   

In II Peter 3:15-17, Peter warns his readers (written to the Galatians primarily) that Paul's writings were "hard to understand" and that when they listen to naysayers they will be "led away with the error of LAWLESS men, and FALL FROM THEIR SECURE POSITION"  (Implying that believers can fall from their secure position if they listen to the words of lawless men.

Anyway, Acts 21 sums up Paul's position, but Christians still today accuse Paul of the same stuff.   If you only went by the word's of our Messiah, you'd never thing God didn't want us to obey Him.    "If you love me, keep my commandments"   Jesus...speaking for the Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 24, 2019)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Paul states here, written well after Jesus had ascended, that they were a shadow of things to come.   Isaiah tells us plainly that we will still be celebrating festivals (Tabernacles in particular) throughout the millennium and also New moons and Sabbaths.
> 
> You know, over the last 2000 years people have accused Paul, falsely, of preaching against Moses' Law and telling people not to circumcise their children (Acts 21) and people are still accusing Paul of the same thing today.   When Paul arrived in Jerusalem, James warned him that there were "thousands of Christ-believing Jews there who loved the Law" and that they had heard that Paul was preaching against Moses.   (Keep in mind, this was late in Paul's life, right before he was taken to Rome)   James said, "Just so that we can show them that THERE IS NOTHING TO WHAT THEY HAVE HEARD, we want you to do this...."     Then  he said, "that way they will all know that you, too, WALK UPRIGHT, KEEPING THE LAW"    What was the evidence of Paul walking "Upright"?   It was because he kept the law!
> 
> ...


 
Concerning how Jesus taught about the Kingdom and obeying the commandments, etc. some people say that was during an overlap period of the two covenants. So since Jesus had not died on the Cross yet, he had to teach his followers to keep his Father's commandments.The 40 year period of covenant transitions. 

I think some see that period as ending at various times, the Cross, the temple destruction, 70AD, etc.

Paul though as you stated said, a shadow of what "is" to come.

I wonder why so many read it as it having already came? I'm beginning to see why people have trouble understanding what it means to obey God. 
That was the whole concept of my question when I started the thread "Obey God" 

I've never really been sure what that means. I was slow to even receive answers. Even when I did they were vague. 

I'm still not completely sure, but at least I'm learning. I do remember when I was a child to obey God was more than it is now. The 10 commandments were huge. They hung in our Church.

Maybe back then, we needed a "list."


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 24, 2019)

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.   35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”

John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love.

12 This is my commandment: Love each other in the same way I have loved you.

Why is this a new commandment and why is Jesus telling us to keep "his" commandments just as he has kept his "Father's" commandments?

Does this new commandment from Jesus supersede those of his Father? If by keeping Christ's commandment, are we not obeying God?

If this is enough though, what about when Paul showed up with all his rules? I mean if Loving God and neighbor nullified all the old ones from the Father? Meaning if we truly show God and our brother love, why did Paul have to come along and mess it up with a brand new list?

It's like we had a list, Jesus comes up with a new shorter list, then Paul comes out with an even longer list. If Jesus only said Love, why did Paul have to spell it out with his sin lists?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 25, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 13:34-35
> A new commandment I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so also you must love one another.   35By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you love one another.”
> 
> John 15:10
> ...




The "new" commandment is not new...it was already in Leviticus....to love your neighbor as yourself.    God said that His law was perfect and that we were not to add to it or take away from it.   The greek word there could also mean "Fresh", and probably meant 'fresh' as the commandment was already well known.    Also, Jesus said that His doctrine "was not His own" but from the One that sent Him.   Jesus also said that what He was speaking was the Father's Words.    When the disciples asked Jesus to show them the Father, Jesus said (paraphrased) "He's standing right in front of you for a while now!"


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## BassMan31 (Jan 30, 2019)

Jabberwock said:


> I believe that once we are (truly) saved, we will have evidence in our lives to reflect that, i.e. obedience to God and His commandments.
> 
> James 2:18 - But someone will say, " You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith BY my works.


 "Truly" is an interesting word, to me. Can one be "falsely" saved?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 30, 2019)

Well, actually no one is saved yet, as the bible tells us that "those who endure to the end, will be saved"....just like the Hebrews that came out of Egypt.    We are actually "being saved" as listed in I Corinthians 1:18 I believe...


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## StriperAddict (Jan 31, 2019)

I served that terrible moralistic shamed based view of myself for years until the gravity of the cross and the grace of God began unraveling the distortions of the fruit of that first tree.  Spiritual death, specifically, loss of God-man union can be swallowed up in Another's perfect obedience.  It's a matter of deliberate direction then, not so much the how-to means of my lousy law-based obedience.  Knowing the gift of Life and the Life Giver is so much more enjoyable (restful) as our trust and growth in truth is settled in dependence on vine-branch reality.  We can't push the fruit along in our self-sufficiency!  He promised to live in and thru us, wow ... a perfect work for man to be indwelt !  The cross and resurrection worked then.  How precious (cool) is that?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 31, 2019)

I agree, Stripe!  A true vine-branch relationship will produce fruit that can be seen by others!   I started my walk in Christ when I was like 13, and accepted our Lord through faith in His atoning work.    I was grace-based for the next 40 years, only accepting what He had done for me and not giving back and ignoring His pleas to show Him love.    When I stopped ignoring the front of the book, and learned that the only way He has asked us to show Him love is by obeying Him FROM OUR HEART, my walk with Him changed!   He promises...

John 14:21   HE THAT LOVETH ME, and keeps my commandments, he it is that loveth me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, AND MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM!     

I've never felt Him closer than I do now since I started honoring Sabbath and learning what His ETERNAL covenant was.    "This is love for God, by keeping His commandments, and His commandments are not a burden"     He wants us to have a circumcised heart, not one that only accepts the gift He gave us - salvation- but a heart that LOVES HIM and wants to show Him that we love Him the ONLY WAY HE ASKED US TO SHOW HIM


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