# What Is True?



## ambush80

This is a fantastic podcast.  It sounds similar to the type of discussions we have here.  Please listen to it.  I'd love to have a discussion about it.

https://www.samharris.org/podcast/item/what-is-true


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## ambush80

At the beginning of the podcast, Sam asks the listeners to weigh in on what the conversation meant to them.  This guy's analysis is compelling:



This guy's is even more so:



Here's what's going on in Sam's forum:

https://www.samharris.org/forum/viewforum/7048/

Apparently the topic was incredibly controversial and engaging to many people.  It shook my foundational beliefs about what truth might be.


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## ambush80

This explains it quite well.  It's also how we argue in here.:


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## ambush80

I like this guy's analysis:

Also, read the comments.  They're fantastic.



I like this one:

_"Nacasius4 days ago
You seem to be forgetting that Jesus said there are only 2 Laws.
Submission to God, and The Golden Rule.

Submission to God provides no explanatory power to any subject.

Only proper application of the Golden Rule has ever provided humanity with information about how to live and work and thrive together.

As long as Peterson is a believer in Divine Command Theory, he will never be able to offer cogent arguments to a civilized discussion of facts."﻿_


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## welderguy

Truth is able to stand on it's own.
Facts need a standard to show they are facts.

This is why you can't exchange the word truth for the word fact.


The biggest question should be "what is the standard?"
You know what I believe it is. But I'd like to know what you think it is.


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## 660griz

welderguy said:


> Facts need a standard to show they are facts.



The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability

A philosopher, a physicist, a mathematician and a computer scientist were travelling through Scotland when they saw a black sheep through the
window of the train.

"Aha," says the philosopher, "I see that Scottish sheep are black."

"Hmm," says the physicist, "You mean that some Scottish sheep are black."

"No," says the mathematician, "All we know is that there is at least one sheep in Scotland, and that at least one side of that one sheep is
black!"

"Oh, no!" shouts the computer scientist, "A special case!"


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## welderguy

660griz said:


> The usual test for a statement of fact is verifiability
> 
> A philosopher, a physicist, a mathematician and a computer scientist were travelling through Scotland when they saw a black sheep through the
> window of the train.
> 
> "Aha," says the philosopher, "I see that Scottish sheep are black."
> 
> "Hmm," says the physicist, "You mean that some Scottish sheep are black."
> 
> "No," says the mathematician, "All we know is that there is at least one sheep in Scotland, and that at least one side of that one sheep is
> black!"
> 
> "Oh, no!" shouts the computer scientist, "A special case!"



They each were relying on their own individual eyes and minds as their standard of truth. Unreliable.


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## 660griz

welderguy said:


> They each were relying on their own individual eyes and minds as their standard of truth. Unreliable.



Yes they were. You mentioned a standard for facts though. Not truth.
However, facts were not stated unless verified.
No standard needed.
However, until more 'test' the mathematician got it right. All they knew for sure is there was one sheep with one black side. All that could be observed.


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## welderguy

660griz said:


> Yes they were. You mentioned a standard for facts though. Not truth.
> However, facts were not stated unless verified.
> No standard needed.
> However, until more 'test' the mathematician got it right. All they knew for sure is there was one sheep with one black side. All that could be observed.



If we are talking about absolute truth, an immovable standard would be required for the test.
Eyes are unreliable(moveable). They go bad, could be colorblind, crossed,etc.
The mind is very unreliable. Intelligence is all over the spectrum, mental illness, chemical imbalance ,etc.


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## bullethead

Belief is a product of the mind.  Equally as unreliable.


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## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Belief is a product of the mind.  Equally as unreliable.



Do you believe this?


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## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Belief is a product of the mind.  Equally as unreliable.





welderguy said:


> Do you believe this?



Without a mind there's no belief.  There IS still truth even with no minds to articulate it.  At some point in the timeline of the Universe there were no sentient beings to observe natural phenomena.  From what we can tell, the rules of Physics applied then like they do now.  They were and are True.  The kind of "truth" that Peterson is talking about (and Welder, and Isreal and Semper Fi) is subjective.  Some of it is based in utility but most of it is based on wishful thinking.   It's actually a redefinition of the word Truth that sneaks in some metaphysics.


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## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Without a mind there's no belief.  There IS still truth even with no minds to articulate it.  At some point in the timeline of the Universe there were no sentient beings to observe natural phenomena.  From what we can tell, the rules of Physics applied then like they do now.  They were and are True.  The kind of "truth" that Peterson is talking about (and Welder, and Isreal and Semper Fi) is subjective.  Some of it is based in utility but most of it is based on wishful thinking.   It's actually a redefinition of the word Truth that sneaks in some metaphysics.



What is your immovable standard for knowing this is truth?


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## ambush80

welderguy said:


> What is your immovable standard for knowing this is truth?



I don't need one.  Why do you think one is necessary?  We'll never know the truth because we don't have all the information but we must use the information that we have in the best way possible (assuming that you want to flourish and not perish).  Calling something "true" is one of the ways that we do that.  It's a useful descriptor of empirical evidence.


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## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do you believe this?



I do not believe that people who have belief of higher powers are reliable sources of accurate factual information regarding those higer powers.


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## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> I don't need one.  Why do you think one is necessary?  We'll never know the truth because we don't have all the information but we must use the information that we have in the best way possible (assuming that you want to flourish and not perish).  Calling something "true" is one of the ways that we do that.  It's a useful descriptor of empirical evidence.



So basically what you're telling me is that you hope it's true, but without an immovable standard(which you deemed unnecessary), you can't be sure.


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## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I do not believe that people who have belief of higher powers are reliable sources of accurate factual information regarding those higer powers.



I see what you did there.

Turned it so you wouldn't say "I believe that people who have belief of higher powers are not reliable sources of accurate factual information regarding those higher powers."

It's still your mind that's making the assessment, and we agreed the mind is not an immovable standard.
So we're back to square one.


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## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I see what you did there.
> 
> Turned it so you wouldn't say "I believe that people who have belief of higher powers are not reliable sources of accurate factual information regarding those higher powers."
> 
> It's still your mind that's making the assessment, and we agreed the mind is not an immovable standard.
> So we're back to square one.


I get careful like that.

And I agree that my mind, which is certainly fallible, is what I use to decide..based off of available evidence that can be backed up with the most reliable facts...what is more likely than not to be more true.
I cant know 100%. And I am fine with that.


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## Miguel Cervantes

welderguy said:


> They each were relying on their own individual eyes and minds as their standard of truth. Unreliable.



And so goes the Pseudo-Science of Global Warming / Anthropogenic Climate Change.


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## ambush80

welderguy said:


> So basically what you're telling me is that you hope it's true, but without an immovable standard(which you deemed unnecessary), you can't be sure.




No.  I rely on empirical evidence and you do too.  That's why you don't go walking off rooftops.  Does gravity work on some distant planet that we don't know about like it does here?  I dunno.  Do you?

Tell me one thing you know that's unconditionally true with 100% certainty.


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## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> No.  I rely on empirical evidence and you do too.  That's why you don't go walking off rooftops.  Does gravity work on some distant planet that we don't know about like it does here?  I dunno.  Do you?
> 
> Tell me one thing you know that's unconditionally true with 100% certainty.



With my mind I believe I know God, but that's not where my proof is(because we already agreed our minds fail us often.)

My spirit is what is 100% sure that I know Him. Somehow He has made Himself known of me. Don't ask me how because I cannot explain that part. It's not a wishful hoping, it's not a feeling, it's a sure knowing. This sure knowing is not my doing(I'm a skeptic by nature). It is my immovable standard that I navigate by, because my heart and my mind deviate almost constantly, so much that I don't trust them. But this inner knowing is steadfast and unshakable.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> So basically what you're telling me is that you hope it's true, but without an immovable standard(which you deemed unnecessary), you can't be sure.



Basically you are calling him out on him needing a standard to base the truth on which is a standard which isn't necessary in the first place.

I wish I had the motivation to have the ability to watch the videos and ponder such a quest for the truth. I did watch enough to understand that I didn't need to watch it to understand that I didn't need it for a basis on understanding the truth.

I'm still open to seek the truth. I don't think I'm blinded by religion, education, blindness, or election.

I applaud your youth? quest? light? revealing?


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## Artfuldodger

ambush80 said:


> No.  I rely on empirical evidence and you do too.  That's why you don't go walking off rooftops.  Does gravity work on some distant planet that we don't know about like it does here?  I dunno.  Do you?
> 
> Tell me one thing you know that's unconditionally true with 100% certainty.



Does the truth require 100% certainty? I can think of many things that meet that requirement. I'm pretty sure that if I jump in my pool tonight that it is wet and cold. 
There it an electrical wire exposed in my attic and I'm wondering if it's hot. I'm pretty sure it is. I'm not 100% sure. I would say maybe 75% sure. I'm just basing this on the other wires in my attic. The truth is I'm not sure. I'm sure enough I wouldn't touch it. I have enough faith that I believe it's hot. Is that truth? Is that belief? I can't see the electricity. I actually have no reason to believe it's hot or dead. I'm only basing my beliefs on past situations.

My faith is based on the thing I can't see. The truth is I'm basing my actions on faith more than truth.

Shocking revelation!


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> With my mind I believe I know God, but that's not where my proof is(because we already agreed our minds fail us often.)
> 
> My spirit is what is 100% sure that I know Him. Somehow He has made Himself known of me. Don't ask me how because I cannot explain that part. It's not a wishful hoping, it's not a feeling, it's a sure knowing. This sure knowing is not my doing(I'm a skeptic by nature). It is my immovable standard that I navigate by, because my heart and my mind deviate almost constantly, so much that I don't trust them. But this inner knowing is steadfast and unshakable.



In the video Sam walks out and says to himself "I hope they have water on the podium. He wonders who he is talking too. What part of himself didn't see the water? 
Do you see our mind/flesh talking to our spirit and visa verse? Jesus often talked to a different personna of himself. Perhaps his man spirit talking to his God Spirit. Maybe our man spirit talks to the indwelling God Spirit like in the cartoons when our angel talks to our devil.


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## SemperFiDawg

"What is true?"  In the purest, most intense, and all encompassing sense, Jesus.


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## bullethead

SemperFiDawg said:


> "What is true?"  In the purest, most intense, and all encompassing sense, Jesus.



Instead of just making the usual declarative statement with absolutely nothing to back it up, are you capable of defending that statement with facts that would even give it a hint of thruthfulness?


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## ambush80

SemperFiDawg said:


> "What is true?"  In the purest, most intense, and all encompassing sense, Jesus.



Didn't listen to the podcast, huh?


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## SemperFiDawg

bullethead said:


> Instead of just making the usual declarative statement with absolutely nothing to back it up, are you capable of defending that statement with facts that would even give it a hint of thruthfulness?



There's plenty to "back it up", just nothing you would accept, which says more about you than it does for the evidence.


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## SemperFiDawg

ambush80 said:


> Didn't listen to the podcast, huh?



No time.  Work is crazy, but the thread title is catchy.


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## bullethead

SemperFiDawg said:


> There's plenty to "back it up", just nothing you would accept, which says more about you than it does for the evidence.


Lay it out there.
Show us.
Are you ashamed to write it out in front of everyone?

Am am very open to truth.


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## SemperFiDawg

bullethead said:


> Am am very open to truth.



Ain't ain't.


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## red neck richie

welderguy said:


> Do you believe this?



No you can not wrap your mind around the supernatural or the spirit, therefore you cant understand. You cannot fathom that there is a higher power because you let what you understand dictate your thoughts.


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## bullethead

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ain't ain't.


Answer a non important snippet to deflect, ignore the straight on questions that hold your feet to the fire.


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> No you can not wrap your mind around the supernatural or the spirit, therefore you cant understand. You cannot fathom that there is a higher power because you let what you understand dictate your thoughts.




But you can.  Why?


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## SemperFiDawg

red neck richie said:


> you let what you understand dictate your thoughts.



Not true.  They comprehend it.  They just reject it.  Yuge difference.


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## SemperFiDawg

bullethead said:


> Answer a non important snippet to deflect, ignore the straight on questions that hold your feet to the fire.



There's not enough evidence in the universe (literally) to get you to accept Christ.  If it was a matter of evidence, you would have accepted Christ long ago.   It's a heart matter, not a mind matter and only you can change your heart, so it's a waste of time discussing evidence only to have you reject the patently obvious.  I've got better things to do and probably, so do you.


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## stringmusic

SemperFiDawg said:


> There's not enough evidence in the universe (literally) to get you to accept Christ.  If it was a matter of evidence, you would have accepted Christ long ago.   It's a heart matter, not a mind matter and only you can change your heart, so it's a waste of time discussing evidence only to have you reject the patently obvious.  I've got better things to do and probably, so do you.



And the reason I don't post in here very much anymore. Great post.


Hope all of y'all are doing good.


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## bullethead

SemperFiDawg said:


> There's not enough evidence in the universe (literally) to get you to accept Christ.  If it was a matter of evidence, you would have accepted Christ long ago.   It's a heart matter, not a mind matter and only you can change your heart, so it's a waste of time discussing evidence only to have you reject the patently obvious.  I've got better things to do and probably, so do you.


So far, i agree, there is not enough evidence in the universe (literally) to get me to accept Christ. It is a matter of evidence and that is the problem... there is no actual evidence of Christ as a god in the entire universe.
Read your own bible, your god is the one that hardens and softens hearts. Heck, you don't even accept the evidence you expect me to accept.
You make claims of "patently obvious" and "evidence" and yet in now the third post you cannot provide any.

There is absolutely zero evidence outside of a book that even hints at Christ (or anyone or anything) is devine.
Because I do not accept the lessened standards that allow you to be convinced is in no way due to a lack of acknowledging evidence...I expect the evidence to meet claims. God=Godlike evidence. If all you've got is ancient writings then I will accept that as evidence of a culture trying to make sense of their existence and a religious movement that broke off from their former religion in order to tweak it to their liking. Neither stand out among the back stories all the other tens of thousands of religions that use such "evidence" of their god (s).


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## bullethead

stringmusic said:


> And the reason I don't post in here very much anymore. Great post.
> 
> 
> Hope all of y'all are doing good.


See string, you were always a little more sharp than most, you tried..but you soon realized that  what evidence you supplied  (which is no different than all other believers) just wasn't enough to stand out above scrutiny.
And you  stopped trying. We appreciate that.

Stay well.


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## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> But you can.  Why?



Well if I could answer that there wouldn't be a debate now would there. I'm not going to tell you I fully understand everything or am gonna give you some factual insight to change your mind. But based on personally feeling the holy spirt in my own spirit and things I have personally witnessed happen in my life I have no doubts what the truth is.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Well if I could answer that there wouldn't be a debate now would there. I'm not going to tell you I fully understand everything or am gonna give you some factual insight to change your mind. But based on personally feeling the holy spirt in my own spirit and things I have personally witnessed happen in my life I have no doubts what the truth is.


Using that as a basis for truth, isn't every other believer in every other god in every other religion that has personal feelings and have personally witnessed things that they attribute to their god  just as accurate as you?

Are they proof that their gods are just as real?

If not, why do you dismiss their proof when yours is no different?


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Using that as a basis for truth, isn't every other believer in every other god in every other religion that has personal feelings and have personally witnessed things that they attribute to their god  just as accurate as you?
> 
> Are they proof that their gods are just as real?
> 
> If not, why do you dismiss their proof when yours is no different?



Bullethead If you have a minute go to youtube and check out louis giglios video on laminin. It is about the best I can do. Good luck on your quest for the truth.


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Well if I could answer that there wouldn't be a debate now would there. I'm not going to tell you I fully understand everything or am gonna give you some factual insight to change your mind. But based on personally feeling the holy spirt in my own spirit and things I have personally witnessed happen in my life I have no doubts what the truth is.



That's bad evidence.  Would you believe me if I offered you the same evidence (testimony) about the "truth" of Copper Bracelets.


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## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> That's bad evidence.  Would you believe me if I offered you the same evidence (testimony) about the "truth" of Copper Bracelets.



Why is personal witness bad evidence its used in a court of law?


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Why is personal witness bad evidence its used in a court of law?



https://www.google.com/search?q=eye+wittness+testiomony+is+flawed&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

Read some of these and get back to me.

"Hands up!! Don't shoot!!!"


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullethead If you have a minute go to youtube and check out louis giglios video on laminin. It is about the best I can do. Good luck on your quest for the truth.



Is that the molecule shaped like a cross?

I can't say what I am thinking.


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Is that the molecule shaped like a cross?
> 
> I can't say what I am thinking.



Ambush 80 and bullethead. It seems as though you have all the facts you want. If you would like to hear my personal testimony I would love to give it to you. But if you have already made up your mind no need to go there.  Best wishes.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Ambush 80 and bullethead. It seems as though you have all the facts you want. If you would like to hear my personal testimony I would love to give it to you. But if you have already made up your mind no need to go there.  Best wishes.


How does your personal testimony differ from the personal testimony of a believer in another god?

There are examples of them praying for a loved one that is stricken with an incurable disease only to be healed after an offering or prayer to their gods or gods.
They witnessed spectacular events where a guiding hand saved them.
They died, saw their god and were sent back.
Etc
Etc
Etc...

I do not doubt that you experienced something that was incredible.  Real to you. Unexplainable. Unique. Mind Boggling. 
Something that to you seemed spiritual. 

Can you admit that others of all faiths and non faith experience similar things?


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> How does your personal testimony differ from the personal testimony of a believer in another god?
> 
> There are examples of them praying for a loved one that is stricken with an incurable disease only to be healed after an offering or prayer to their gods or gods.
> They witnessed spectacular events where a guiding hand saved them.
> They died, saw their god and were sent back.
> Etc
> Etc
> Etc...
> 
> I do not doubt that you experienced something that was incredible.  Real to you. Unexplainable. Unique. Mind Boggling.
> Something that to you seemed spiritual.
> 
> Can you admit that others of all faiths and non faith experience similar things?



I don't like speaking for others on what they experienced. I can only speak on my personal experience. But it is exactly what others have said they experienced.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I don't like speaking for others on what they experienced. I can only speak on my personal experience. But it is exactly what others have said they experienced.



I appreciate the honesty.

If your experience is proof that God exists, is their experiences equally as accurate proof that their god or gods exists?


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## 660griz

bullethead said:


> I appreciate the honesty.
> 
> If your experience is proof that God exists, is their experiences equally as accurate proof that their god or gods exists?



Can't wait for the answer. What will we get? Honesty or deflection?


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I appreciate the honesty.
> 
> If your experience is proof that God exists, is their experiences equally as accurate proof that their god or gods exists?



Again I cant speak on the experience of others you will have to talk to them. But my experiences are consistent with what is written and witnesses in the bible. So if you want to believe that me and all the apostles that have witnessed these things are liars that's your choice you have the freewill to do so. But it clearly says that the miracles preformed by Jesus were of God.


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Again I cant speak on the experience of others you will have to talk to them. But my experiences are consistent with what is written and witnesses in the bible. So if you want to believe that me and all the apostles that have witnessed these things are liars that's your choice you have the freewill to do so. But it clearly says that the miracles preformed by Jesus were of God.



Richie,

Will you share your testimony with me?


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## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Richie,
> 
> Will you share your testimony with me?



Yes I will pm you when I get home from work. Its personal so I would rather not put it on this blog. You know the whole lets bash the Christian deal.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Again I cant speak on the experience of others you will have to talk to them. But my experiences are consistent with what is written and witnesses in the bible. So if you want to believe that me and all the apostles that have witnessed these things are liars that's your choice you have the freewill to do so. But it clearly says that the miracles preformed by Jesus were of God.


I am not asking you to speak for anyone else.
I am asking you this question.

If your experiences are consistent with what is written in your holy book,
And others experiences are consistent with what is written in their holy book,
Are they both equal?


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I am not asking you to speak for anyone else.
> I am asking you this question.
> 
> If your experiences are consistent with what is written in your holy book,
> And others experiences are consistent with what is written in their holy book,
> Are they both equal?


I have never experienced any other God so I would have to say no based on my experiences. I'm not tying to tell you what to believe I'm just telling you based on my experiences and my knowledge this is what I believe to be true.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I have never experienced any other God so I would have to say no based on my experiences. I'm not tying to tell you what to believe I'm just telling you based on my experiences and my knowledge this is what I believe to be true.


I am not asking you if you experienced another god.
I am asking you about end results. 

If you add 2+2 and get 4 based off of the math that you were taught, practised and learned..
And
Someone from another part of the world added 2+2 and also gets 4 based off of their system..

Is their 4 and your 4 equal?


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## bullethead

You ask your god to heal your cancer strucken friend.
A muslim asks his god to heal his cancer stricken friend.
I lay two sprigs of spruce tree branches on a large flat rock in my yard and ask the rock to heal my cancer stricken friend.

All of our friends survive. 

How can one be any more effective or less effective than the other?
How could any of them be more or less true than the other?


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> You ask your god to heal your cancer strucken friend.
> A muslim asks his god to heal his cancer stricken friend.
> I lay two sprigs of spruce tree branches on a large flat rock in my yard and ask the rock to heal my cancer stricken friend.
> 
> All of our friends survive.
> 
> How can one be any more effective or less effective than the other?
> How could any of them be more or less true than the other?


I would say you have some very lucky friends.  Talk to the muslim talk to the Christian talk to the branch layer. Read the kuran read the Bible read the branch layers holy book search your spirit and make your own decision. I've already made mine.
Find the answers to your questions. I can only answer your questions based on what I have come to learn to be true.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I would say you have some very lucky friends.  Talk to the muslim talk to the Christian talk to the branch layer. Read the kuran read the Bible read the branch layers holy book search your spirit and make your own decision. I've already made mine.
> Find the answers to your questions. I can only answer your questions based on what I have come to learn to be true.


You cannot possibly have learned what is true based off of one while ignoring the same evidence in the others.


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## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You cannot possibly have learned what is true based off of one while ignoring the same evidence in the others.



What if....Just what if...

One is true and one is counterfeit?


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## bullethead

welderguy said:


> What if....Just what if...
> 
> One is true and one is counterfeit?



Thats possible. Which one?
Is one true and 20,000 counterfeit?

Which one?

Its also possible they are all true...and none are.


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## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Thats possible. Which one?
> Is one true and 20,000 counterfeit?
> 
> Which one?
> 
> Its also possible they are all true...and none are.



Tell me how all could be true?


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## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Tell me how all could be true?



If one is possible all are possible.


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## welderguy

bullethead said:


> If one is possible all are possible.



Each claims to be the only true one. That cannot be true for every one.


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## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Each claims to be the only true one. That cannot be true for every one.


The evidence that many of you use points to many gods.

It also may mean not even one exists, and none being the only true one.


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## welderguy

bullethead said:


> The evidence that many of you use points to many gods.
> 
> It also may mean not even one exists, and none being the only true one.



You cannot include me in that description, as I believe in only one true God.
All others, I believe, are counterfeit.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> You cannot include me in that description, as I believe in only one true God.
> All others, I believe, are counterfeit.



You  do understand why the counterfeit god believers use the same evidence of creation and nature that you and I use for our true God, right?

They believe the evidence points to their god and they don't believe their god is counterfeit. Most of the dead counterfeit god believers died that way. This fact doesn't make their god true, but in their hearts they used the same evidence as we do. Most were just never elected and enlightened.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> You  do understand why the counterfeit god believers use the same evidence of creation and nature that you and I use for our true God, right?
> 
> They believe the evidence points to their god and they don't believe their god is counterfeit. Most of the dead counterfeit god believers died that way. This fact doesn't make their god true, but in their hearts they used the same evidence as we do. Most were just never elected and enlightened.



Phill.3:18
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:


----------



## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> You  do understand why the counterfeit god believers use the same evidence of creation and nature that you and I use for our true God, right?
> 
> They believe the evidence points to their god and they don't believe their god is counterfeit. Most of the dead counterfeit god believers died that way. This fact doesn't make their god true, but in their hearts they used the same evidence as we do. Most were just never elected and enlightened.



Art,

This is you trying to understand others.



welderguy said:


> Phill.3:18
> 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:



This is Welder talking about "enemies"

Maybe now you see what the problem with religion is.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Art,
> 
> This is you trying to understand others.
> 
> 
> 
> This is Welder talking about "enemies"
> 
> Maybe now you see what the problem with religion is.



It is the cross of Christ that separates. Many religions agree that something supernatural was involved in creation, but the cross is what causes the strife.

I think Art understands this, and I hope someday you will too.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You cannot include me in that description, as I believe in only one true God.
> All others, I believe, are counterfeit.



It is an oldie but a goodie...
For the reasons that you dismiss other religions, that is why I dismiss yours. 

You are especially included


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> It is an oldie but a goodie...
> For the reasons that you dismiss other religions, that is why I dismiss yours.
> 
> You are especially included



So you're telling me you are an enemy of the cross?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> So you're telling me you are an enemy of the cross?



I have  nothing against crosses.
Not Christopher
Not Kriss
Crosses keep vampires away from me.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You cannot include me in that description, as I believe in only one true God.
> All others, I believe, are counterfeit.



And the believers in those other gods believe that your's is counterfeit .
See how that works?
In actuality none of you can prove the other wrong, and none of you can prove yourself right.
Truth isnt that hard to prove, but false claims and lies are.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I have  nothing against crosses.
> Not Christopher
> Not Kriss
> Crosses keep vampires away from me.



I appreciate your humor, I really do. But I believe you know exactly which cross I'm talking about, and more importantly, what that cross represents.

When I say "enemy of the cross", I'm referring to what Paul wrote in Phillipians 3.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> And the believers in those other gods believe that your's is counterfeit .
> See how that works?
> In actuality none of you can prove the other wrong, and none of you can prove yourself right.
> Truth isnt that hard to prove, but false claims and lies are.



Of course they believe mine is counterfeit. That's a no brainer.
As far as proof goes, the Higher Power does the proving to the ones of His choosing, not to all. And He's the only one that's able to do that.
See how that works?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Of course they believe mine is counterfeit. That's a no brainer.
> As far as proof goes, the Higher Power does the proving to the ones of His choosing, not to all. And He's the only one that's able to do that.
> See how that works?


Yes I see EXACTLY how that works.
And that is why You claim you are chosen, Welder claims some Spirit has chosen him and every person that believes like you and him believe and EVERY other person in the ENTIRE world that believes in EVERY other god claims THEY are chosen too.
Do You See that you are giving credit to your beliefs to a diety that you cannot get to come here and show itself?
That claim is not unique.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I appreciate your humor, I really do. But I believe you know exactly which cross I'm talking about, and more importantly, what that cross represents.
> 
> When I say "enemy of the cross", I'm referring to what Paul wrote in Phillipians 3.


I am no more an enemy or fan of Paul's writings as I am of Paul McCartney's song lyrics. Both are equally as entertaining to me and yet both have individuals that take their words literally and expect others to do so also. 
I am not an enemy of something that I think does not exist. I am more a foe of the fanatics that expect others to live in their fantasy worlds.
Basically if you want to dress up like Spock and speak Vulcan go ahead, but just realize not everybody plays in that world.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Art,
> 
> This is you trying to understand others.
> 
> 
> 
> This is Welder talking about "enemies"
> 
> Maybe now you see what the problem with religion is.



Ambush you know i like you dude but I don't see Christians killing people because of their religious beliefs. I have seen muslim extremists behead people because of theirs. So I don't think he is off base with the whole enemy thing.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Ambush you know i like you dude but I don't see Christians killing people because of their religious beliefs. I have seen muslim extremists behead people because of theirs. So I don't think he is off base with the whole enemy thing.


Not a fan of Christian history?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Yes I see EXACTLY how that works.
> And that is why You claim you are chosen, Welder claims some Spirit has chosen him and every person that believes like you and him believe and EVERY other person in the ENTIRE world that believes in EVERY other god claims THEY are chosen too.
> Do You See that you are giving credit to your beliefs to a diety that you cannot get to come here and show itself?
> That claim is not unique.



Like I said before, there's true and there's counterfeit.
But I have to disagree with you about the "cannot get to come and show itself" part.  When I draw near to Him, He draws near to me. Every time.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I am no more an enemy or fan of Paul's writings as I am of Paul McCartney's song lyrics. Both are equally as entertaining to me and yet both have individuals that take their words literally and expect others to do so also.
> I am not an enemy of something that I think does not exist. I am more a foe of the fanatics that expect others to live in their fantasy worlds.
> Basically if you want to dress up like Spock and speak Vulcan go ahead, but just realize not everybody plays in that world.



I do not expect you to live in my world. I am simply telling you about my world and what I believe is true. I don't believe a person CAN believe until they have been changed.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Like I said before, there's true and there's counterfeit.
> But I have to disagree with you about the "cannot get to come and show itself" part.  When I draw near to Him, He draws near to me. Every time.


Welder, you ignore the billions of people that use that same evidence for their true god.
If you expect me to accept that for you, then you have to accept that for them.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, you ignore the billions of people that use that same evidence for their true god.
> If you expect me to accept that for you, then you have to accept that for them.



That's just it. I do not expect you to accept it. In actuality, it would be a miracle(literally) if you accepted it. It is nothing more than foolishness to you, and I get that (remember there was a time when I could not believe either).
Try not to take it so personally, like I'm attacking you or something,cause I'm not. You and I are on even terms. I am no better than you or anyone else.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> That's just it. I do not expect you to accept it. In actuality, it would be a miracle(literally) if you accepted it. It is nothing more than foolishness to you, and I get that (remember there was a time when I could not believe either).
> Try not to take it so personally, like I'm attacking you or something,cause I'm not. You and I are on even terms. I am no better than you or anyone else.


I do not take it personally. I respect you for taking the time in life to discuss these things with me.
I just wonder sometimes if you can see that the arguments you present as evidence are also used by believers around the world as their evidence? And you dismiss their evidence for the same reasons they dismiss yours and it is all the same evidence.
The hypocrisy is what gets me.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I do not take it personally. I respect you for taking the time in life to discuss these things with me.
> I just wonder sometimes if you can see that the arguments you present as evidence are also used by believers around the world as their evidence? And you dismiss their evidence for the same reasons they dismiss yours and it is all the same evidence.
> The hypocrisy is what gets me.



If I have been hypocritical, then shame on me. But to the best of my knowledge, I have tried to be honest about what I believe to be true, based on things that I've learned and experienced. I realize you are relying on your mind to sort through these things, and I know that the mind only gets you so far. I don't expect you to go any further without devine help. I pray almost every day for that on your behalf.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If I have been hypocritical, then shame on me. But to the best of my knowledge, I have tried to be honest about what I believe to be true, based on things that I've learned and experienced. I realize you are relying on your mind to sort through these things, and I know that the mind only gets you so far. I don't expect you to go any further without devine help. I pray almost every day for that on your behalf.


Again, what you base your truth on, your learnings, your teachings, your feelings, your experiences are precisely the same things that all believers  of all religions use as "proof". You do not accept their proof, yet say the exact same things as yours. It is hypocritical.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Again, what you base your truth on, your learnings, your teachings, your feelings, your experiences are precisely the same things that all believers  of all religions use as "proof". You do not accept their proof, yet say the exact same things as yours. It is hypocritical.



A counterfeit bill looks very much like a real one too.
But there are subtle differences.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> A counterfeit bill looks very much like a real one too.
> But there are subtle differences.



You are correct. A legit bill can be authenticated. 

That is not the case with any claims from believers that the god they worship is the mostest bestest ever.
Your incessant repeats are prime example.

You remind me of the hollywood celebs preaching on soap boxes that the USA should not keep out refugees and not build a wall on the mexico border.
Meanwhile they all live in gated communities in houses that are surrounded by walls.
Hypocrisy at it's finest.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You are correct. A legit bill can be authenticated.
> 
> That is not the case with any claims from believers that the god they worship is the mostest bestest ever.
> Your incessant repeats are prime example.
> 
> You remind me of the hollywood celebs preaching on soap boxes that the USA should not keep out refugees and not build a wall on the mexico border.
> Meanwhile they all live in gated communities in houses that are surrounded by walls.
> Hypocrisy at it's finest.



Yes the legit bill can be authenticated(on the outside), but a legit believer's authentification is on the inside.

And... I'm not really following your hollywood celeb analogy as it pertains to me, sorry.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Yes the legit bill can be authenticated(on the outside), but a legit believer's authentification is on the inside.
> 
> And... I'm not really following your hollywood celeb analogy as it pertains to me, sorry.


How do you authenticate what is on the inside of a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc?

The analogy:
Shows that you are as hypocrital as the celebs.
You claim truth is on the inside without ever knowing what is inside of other believers in gods. 
You use the same examples they use and say theirs are wrong while you continue to not acknowledge that yours are no different.
You say your god is the one. They say their god is the one. You say theirs is counterfeit they say yours is counterfeit and you both use the same examples why.
It is a hysterical hypocrital circus.
Anything with such credibility as a god would be undeniable truth. Universally.  People may not like it, but they couldn't disagree with such pure truth. It would be the epitome of truth. And yet believers in all religions use the same arguments for what is the best baseball team.... Which college football team is the greatest....and which color is the most appealing. There is not a single answer more true than the next. One answer is as equally dismissed than the next for the same reasons.
Truth needs no excuses. Thats all believers make.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> How do you authenticate what is on the inside of a Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, etc?



I can't. All I see is their outward appearance.  But here's what I know.
If a person has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they know there's been a change done in them that they did not do themselves,and they will be led to act accordingly. The reason I know this is because it took place in me,without my help. If it happens to you, you will know it, and then you will be telling everyone that will listen. You won't be able to hold it in.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I can't. All I see is their outward appearance.  But here's what I know.
> If a person has the Holy Spirit dwelling in them, they know there's been a change done in them that they did not do themselves,and they will be led to act accordingly. The reason I know this is because it took place in me,without my help. If it happens to you, you will know it, and then you will be telling everyone that will listen. You won't be able to hold it in.


So using that proof, everyone that cannot hold in their joy and tells everyone who will listen about Allah is as genuine and as truthful and as real as you?
Can you admit that others have this happen to them? There are testimonies worldwide.
You are not unique.
Your proof is not unique.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So using that proof, everyone that cannot hold in their joy and tells everyone who will listen about Allah is as genuine and as truthful and as real as you?
> Can you admit that others have this happen to them? There are testimonies worldwide.
> You are not unique.
> Your proof is not unique.



If they are changed by the same Spirit that changed me, they will know Jesus. They may not know his name and all the head knowledge of Him, but they will know the one who changed them.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If they are changed by the same Spirit that changed me, they will know Jesus. They may not know his name and all the head knowledge of Him, but they will know the one who changed them.


Oh I thought you had something good.

I am thinking you probably are touched by the same spirit that has touched them and Allah  is using the prophet Jesus to make you feel comfortable in your journey to him.
That makes way more sense.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If they are changed by the same Spirit that changed me, they will know Jesus. They may not know his name and all the head knowledge of Him, but they will know the one who changed them.



Seriously, unreal man.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Oh I thought you had something good.
> 
> I am thinking you probably are touched by the same spirit that has touched them and Allah  is using the prophet Jesus to make you feel comfortable in your journey to him.
> That makes way more sense.



Then explain why they,and I, (and you too,if you've had this ^^revelation)are going in three totally different directions.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> If they are changed by the same Spirit that changed me, they will know Jesus. They may not know his name and all the head knowledge of Him, but they will know the one who changed them.



Off topic but since God doesn't elect by works such as how one believes before election, would it stand to reason that God has elected just as many Hindus and Native Americans 500 years ago as he has individuals with a Christian heritage?

Considering that election is the only way one comes to know God through Jesus, one's upbringing is pretty much useless in respect to finding the truth.
Your parents had 0% of any part in bringing you to know the truth. The Hindu child likewise has 0% of knowing the truth through his parents. 
Therefore since election is from 100% grace, there should be just as many individuals who grew up Hindu or who have never heard the Gospel from Paul.
Likewise all of the souls already dead that we thought never had a chance from not hearing the Word might already be in Heaven by knowing God through Jesus by revelation.

Their salvation/truth  came through Jesus from God. They knew Jesus from the Spirit but not his name.

You would have had the same chance at learning the truth growing up in Iraq.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Off topic but since God doesn't elect by works such as how one believes before election, would it stand to reason that God has elected just as many Hindus and Native Americans 500 years ago as he has individuals with a Christian heritage?
> 
> Considering that election is the only way one comes to know God through Jesus, one's upbringing is pretty much useless in respect to finding the truth.
> Your parents had 0% of any part in bringing you to know the truth. The Hindu child likewise has 0% of knowing the truth through his parents.
> Therefore since election is from 100% grace, there should be just as many individuals who grew up Hindu or who have never heard the Gospel from Paul.
> Likewise all of the souls already dead that we thought never had a chance from not hearing the Word might already be in Heaven by knowing God through Jesus by revelation.
> 
> Their salvation/truth  came through Jesus from God. They knew Jesus from the Spirit but not his name.
> 
> You would have had the same chance at learning the truth growing up in Iraq.



The Holy Spirit knows no bounds. He finds those that were elected before the foundation of the world, and calls them out of darkness.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Then explain why they,and I, (and you too,if you've had this ^^revelation)are going in three totally different directions.



Lolol, THAT IS MY POINT!!!!
If ONE TRUE GOD spiritually touched everyone that claims they have been spiritually touched NOBODY would differ in who did the touching!!!!
But reality is that each religion has believers that swear up down left and right that they have been uniquely moved by the guiding force of their god and everyone else that makes the same claim about a different god is mistaken, deceived, misguided and wrong. 

For those reasons you are all mistaken.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> The Holy Spirit knows no bounds. He finds those that were elected before the foundation of the world, and calls them out of darkness.



Still swiping the assertive claim card that the ATMs of Reality doesn't accept.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bullethead said:


> Lolol, THAT IS MY POINT!!!!
> If ONE TRUE GOD spiritually touched everyone that claims they have been spiritually touched NOBODY would differ in who did the touching!!!!
> But reality is that each religion has believers that swear up down left and right that they have been uniquely moved by the guiding force of their god and everyone else that makes the same claim about a different god is mistaken, deceived, misguided and wrong.
> 
> For those reasons you are all mistaken.



In Welder's defense, we don't believe we are mistaken. I can understand that the others are mistaken. Perhaps Welder's election blinded him more than my election in understanding why all of those other folks feel they are believers.

I agree with Welder that no one can find the truth of Jesus except from God. 

Yet I can still see why or how all of the world are still blind. Maybe Welder can't see that or understand it.

Just the other day my sister said, I don't understand why Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. She doesn't understand election and hardening. 

Even still she should understand indoctrination even if she doesn't believe in election. Whole nations blinded years ago so that their indoctrination is useless just as ours is.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Ambush you know i like you dude but I don't see Christians killing people because of their religious beliefs. I have seen muslim extremists behead people because of theirs. So I don't think he is off base with the whole enemy thing.



Yes.  Especially Muslims at this time in history.


----------



## bullethead

Artfuldodger said:


> In Welder's defense, we don't believe we are mistaken. I can understand that the others are mistaken. Perhaps Welder's election blinded him more than my election in understanding why all of those other folks feel they are believers.
> 
> I agree with Welder that no one can find the truth of Jesus except from God.
> 
> Yet I can still see why or how all of the world are still blind. Maybe Welder can't see that or understand it.
> 
> Just the other day my sister said, I don't understand why Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. She doesn't understand election and hardening.
> 
> Even still she should understand indoctrination even if she doesn't believe in election. Whole nations blinded years ago so that their indoctrination is useless just as ours is.


I dont think you understand it because it is truthful,  if that was the case it would be understood universally.
Your and others "understanding" is the result of what you need to tell yourself in order for you to make sense of the nonsensical.

All of the evidence you use to convince yourself is also used by others worldwide. It is not coincidence that the people who are christians somehow get choseb by Jesus, Muslims amazingly get chosen by Allah, Jews are chosen by God. And you all wear the "I've got it right, they got it wrong" TShirts.
Hypocrisy


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Lolol, THAT IS MY POINT!!!!
> If ONE TRUE GOD spiritually touched everyone that claims they have been spiritually touched NOBODY would differ in who did the touching!!!!
> But reality is that each religion has believers that swear up down left and right that they have been uniquely moved by the guiding force of their god and everyone else that makes the same claim about a different god is mistaken, deceived, misguided and wrong.
> 
> For those reasons you are all mistaken.



No sir. You missed the point.
You said you believe that Allah is actually  my God. And I asked if that's the case, why am I not serving Allah and following the Koran. I'm definitely not.
Then by the same token, why are you not?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> No sir. You missed the point.
> You said you believe that Allah is actually  my God. And I asked if that's the case, why am I not serving Allah and following the Koran. I'm definitely not.
> Then by the same token, why are you not?



For the same reasons non christians are not following Jesus....
You say there is one God and that God is Jesus. 
We all know billions of people worldwide do not follow Jesus. They all claim they ARE following their god. They have the same "feeling "that you do so like you, they know they are right.
If they have the same feelings as you yet do not follow Jesus then those feelings are not coming from Jesus.
They are coming from somewhere then, where?
Multiple Gods sending multiple truths?
Your god confusing them?
Their god confusing you?

No gods sending any messages to anyone, just individuals who are products of their cultures convincing themselves why adults still beleive in Santa?

I think one stands out for me...


----------



## bullethead

Artfuldodger said:


> In Welder's defense, we don't believe we are mistaken. I can understand that the others are mistaken. Perhaps Welder's election blinded him more than my election in understanding why all of those other folks feel they are believers.
> 
> I agree with Welder that no one can find the truth of Jesus except from God.
> 
> Yet I can still see why or how all of the world are still blind. Maybe Welder can't see that or understand it.
> 
> Just the other day my sister said, I don't understand why Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah. She doesn't understand election and hardening.
> 
> Even still she should understand indoctrination even if she doesn't believe in election. Whole nations blinded years ago so that their indoctrination is useless just as ours is.


Have you ever talked to a believer of any religion that admits that they are mistaken?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> For the same reasons non christians are not following Jesus....
> You say there is one God and that God is Jesus.
> We all know billions of people worldwide do not follow Jesus. They all claim they ARE following their god. They have the same "feeling "that you do so like you, they know they are right.
> If they have the same feelings as you yet do not follow Jesus then those feelings are not coming from Jesus.
> They are coming from somewhere then, where?
> Multiple Gods sending multiple truths?
> Your god confusing them?
> Their god confusing you?
> 
> No gods sending any messages to anyone, just individuals who are products of their cultures convincing themselves why adults still beleive in Santa?
> 
> I think one stands out for me...



You keep saying belief is based on feelings. And that it's based on intellect or cultural raising. This explains why you and I are not even on the same page.
I'm telling you my belief is not based on any of these things. You don't seem to be getting that detail. I'm also saying, until you are visited by the Holy Spirit you will never get it.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You keep saying belief is based on feelings. And that it's based on intellect or cultural raising. This explains why you and I are not even on the same page.
> I'm telling you my belief is not based on any of these things. You don't seem to be getting that detail. I'm also saying, until you are visited by the Holy Spirit you will never get it.


Welder I get it, I just do not agree with you. 
Welder, YOU are the one that says a person FEELS the Holy Spirit.
Why is it that:
The Holy Spirit only visits Christians.
Allah only visits Muslims.
Krishna only makes house calls to Hindus.
Each religions spiritual recruiter stays within his section of town so to speak.

You do not see Hindus being touched by the Christian holy spirit.
Krishna doesn't swing by to talk to you.
Allah doesn't recruit in Israel. 


It is culture,  home, family , area influenced  and driven by individual need. Subconsciously you are filling a void. 

If you were born and raised in Somalia you would still be the same hypocrital fanatic, you would just be wearning a different jersey making these same vague and vast excuses for a different  Quarterback.

You ignore what goes on everywhere else except for your own world.  You give proof and when shown others use that same proof you claim they are wrong.
You give excuses like "just wait till the spirit gets you..then youll see". It is hogwash. "Santa is watching, so you better be good for goodness sake"

Your delusion is a pacifier for something missing in your life. You got old enough to know Santa was just a story but at some point you made the jump to a god because as an adult you think that makes much more sense.

You use the same excuses that others use and you say theirs are not valid. You are blind to your own excuses, but 20/20 when someone else uses them for a different god.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder I get it, I just do not agree with you.
> Welder, YOU are the one that says a person FEELS the Holy Spirit.
> Why is it that:
> The Holy Spirit only visits Christians.
> Allah only visits Muslims.
> Krishna only makes house calls to Hindus.
> Each religions spiritual recruiter stays within his section of town so to speak.
> 
> You do not see Hindus being touched by the Christian holy spirit.
> Krishna doesn't swing by to talk to you.
> Allah doesn't recruit in Israel.
> 
> 
> It is culture,  home, family , area influenced  and driven by individual need. Subconsciously you are filling a void.
> 
> If you were born and raised in Somalia you would still be the same hypocrital fanatic, you would just be wearning a different jersey making these same vague and vast excuses for a different  Quarterback.
> 
> You ignore what goes on everywhere else except for your own world.  You give proof and when shown others use that same proof you claim they are wrong.
> You give excuses like "just wait till the spirit gets you..then youll see". It is hogwash. "Santa is watching, so you better be good for goodness sake"
> 
> Your delusion is a pacifier for something missing in your life. You got old enough to know Santa was just a story but at some point you made the jump to a god because as an adult you think that makes much more sense.
> 
> You use the same excuses that others use and you say theirs are not valid. You are blind to your own excuses, but 20/20 when someone else uses them for a different god.



No, you definitely don't get it. You are making your assessments based on an incomplete knowledge.You look out and see with your eyes what looks like the same exact evidence.I get that. I agree,at face value,it does look very much the same in a lot of ways(to the eyes).
BUT, knowing what I know inside(which you don't,obviously), it is not the same.There are many dead giveaways, not the least of which is the element of love.And before you ask, I don't believe I have the capacity to explain to you what I mean by that statement so you can understand. I wish I did, but that is something that MUST be taught(unlocked)by the Holy Spirit.
This is very frustrating because I want so badly for you to see what I see, but I don't have the power to make that happen. Only God can.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> No, you definitely don't get it. You are making your assessments based on an incomplete knowledge.You look out and see with your eyes what looks like the same exact evidence.I get that. I agree,at face value,it does look very much the same in a lot of ways(to the eyes).
> BUT, knowing what I know inside(which you don't,obviously), it is not the same.There are many dead giveaways, not the least of which is the element of love.And before you ask, I don't believe I have the capacity to explain to you what I mean by that statement so you can understand. I wish I did, but that is something that MUST be taught(unlocked)by the Holy Spirit.
> This is very frustrating because I want so badly for you to see what I see, but I don't have the power to make that happen. Only God can.


I am taking your word for what you claim is inside you.
Therefore
I must take the Muslims word for what they claim what is inside of them.
I must take the Hindus word for what they claim is inside them.
And on and on and on for every believer of every religion.

Your feeling inside is the same as their feeling. 
If you say it isnt you are disingenous, in denial and a hypocrite.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I am taking your word for what you claim is inside you.
> Therefore
> I must take the Muslims word for what they claim what is inside of them.
> I must take the Hindus word for what they claim is inside them.
> And on and on and on for every believer of every religion.
> 
> Your feeling inside is the same as their feeling.
> If you say it isnt you are disingenous, in denial and a hypocrite.



I understand why you have to take that position. You do NOT have a choice in the matter(contrary to what some would try to tell you).


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I understand why you have to take that position. You do NOT have a choice in the matter(as some would try to tell you).



Correct,  by using your evidence that is the only position that can be logically taken.

Each individual believer, no matter who they worship, will not only tell you that they are somehow more touched by their god than everyone else who believes in a different god but they also actually believe they are even more close to their own god than other beleivers in that same god.
Yep, you are special alright.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I understand why you have to take that position. You do NOT have a choice in the matter(contrary to what some would try to tell you).



Your mind allows you to understand it.
Your religion makes you deny it.
You are a product of your beliefs.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Correct,  by using your evidence that is the only position that can be logically taken.
> 
> Each individual believer, no matter who they worship, will not only tell you that they are somehow more touched by their god than everyone else who believes in a different god but they also actually believe they are even more close to their own god than other beleivers in that same god.
> Yep, you are special alright.



Coming from an outsider(you) looking in, that opinion carries very little weight with me.
These discussions that you and I have, though frustrating at times, really actually only solidify my beliefs even stronger because you say and act EXACTLY how the scriptures depict an unbeliever will act...until they are changed.

It's ALL good


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Coming from an outsider(you) looking in, that opinion carries very little weight with me.
> These discussions that you and I have, though frustrating at times, really actually only solidify my beliefs even stronger because you say and act EXACTLY how the scriptures depict an unbeliever will act...until they are changed.
> 
> It's ALL good


That is how indoctrination works my friend.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> That is how indoctrination works my friend.



No, that is how belief/unbelief works.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> No, that is how belief/unbelief works.



Sure, i agree. The cult must get you to believe. The doctrine will certainly tell you what "non-beleivers" will say.
You fall for it.
Indoctrinated to the hilt.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Sure, i agree. The cult must get you to believe. The doctrine will certainly tell you what "non-beleivers" will say.
> You fall for it.
> Indoctrinated to the hilt.



Even if the belief I speak of is independent of the mind?


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Even if the belief I speak of is independent of the mind?


I can hardly wait for your explanation of how belief can be independent of the mind 

I haven't posted in a while so I must say hello and hope all of you are doing well.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Even if the belief I speak of is independent of the mind?



Welder, you are an example of a charlatan. You use unprovable means as evidence.
You deny others when they use the exact same evidence.
Con men look up to you.


----------



## bullethead

Nice to hear from you again Walt.
You have been missed.


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> Nice to hear from you again Walt.
> You have been missed.


Thanks. I had to take a break so I could get back into the "right mind" on this subject.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Even if the belief I speak of is independent of the mind?



What Welderguy is saying is it has nothing to do with his mind/indoctrination. He would still have been elected even if he grew up in a Muslim or Hindu household. Indoctrination is a blindness that God can overcome. Indoctrination leaves salvation up to chance. Election let's God elect folks who have never heard the word. Election let's God elect children raised in Muslim countries.

Welder is saying that his Christian upbringing or his mind has nothing to do with his revelation of the truth. There are many folks raised in a Christian environment that haven't been revealed the truth. This is evidence that it has to be revealed from God. There are dead bodies in the ground that never heard the Gospel but yet their souls are in Heaven. This is proof that only God can reveal the truth, which is Jesus.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Welder, you are an example of a charlatan. You use unprovable means as evidence.
> You deny others when they use the exact same evidence.
> Con men look up to you.



Other Religions had the son of their God sent to earth to preform countless miracles such as rising people from the dead and being crucified only to rise from the dead himself 3 days later? The proof is there weather you want to believe it or not that is the real question.


----------



## bullethead

Artfuldodger said:


> What Welderguy is saying is it has nothing to do with his mind/indoctrination. He would still have been elected even if he grew up in a Muslim or Hindu household. Indoctrination is a blindness that God can overcome. Indoctrination leaves salvation up to chance. Election let's God elect folks who have never heard the word. Election let's God elect children raised in Muslim countries.
> 
> Welder is saying that his Christian upbringing or his mind has nothing to do with his revelation of the truth. There are many folks raised in a Christian environment that haven't been revealed the truth. This is evidence that it has to be revealed from God. There are dead bodies in the ground that never heard the Gospel but yet their souls are in Heaven. This is proof that only God can reveal the truth, which is Jesus.


Anybody can and does say whatever they want. We all know that.
It is the people that are able to back up what they say with facts are the ones that are considered reliable , trustworthy and consistent. 

Simply saying things is what gets us into these conversations in the first place. 
One side backs it up,  the other just keeps piling on the assertions, declarations, and unknown and act as if that is proof.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Anybody can and does say whatever they want. We all know that.
> It is the people that are able to back up what they say with facts are the ones that are considered reliable , trustworthy and consistent.
> 
> Simply saying things is what gets us into these conversations in the first place.
> One side backs it up,  the other just keeps piling on the assertions, declarations, and unknown and act as if that is proof.



Bullethead the son is the proof. The blood of Christ is the proof. Christ rising from the dead is the proof he was sent to earth as proof. Now if you do not choose to believe the proof that's your choice but just say that.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Other Religions had the son of their God sent to earth to preform countless miracles such as rising people from the dead and being crucified only to rise from the dead himself 3 days later? The proof is there weather you want to believe it or not that is the real question.


You seem to be under the impression that Christianity is the only religion that makes these claims of miracles, representatives and resurrection.
Its not.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Other Religions had the son of their God sent to earth to preform countless miracles such as rising people from the dead and being crucified only to rise from the dead himself 3 days later? The proof is there weather you want to believe it or not that is the real question.


Listen, the proof is absolutely not there. It exists nowhere but the writings that were written after Jesus was dead and by anonymous people who did not witness it.made it into the New Testament. Nobody else recorded it as it happened . Literally nobody.

Where is this proof elsewhere?

A gods only solution to fix mankind is to make a jewish girl pregnant with a human copy of himself, have the kid grow up uneventfully except for when the lie of all the first born being killed,  which happened nowhere,  then at 30 years old he bursts onto the scene, creates a pile of trouble, get his rearend killed for it and then somehow that fixes mankind?
No sacrifice. 
If true, the guy knows he is gonna live eternally as a god.  Big whoop. Where do I sign up?
We have discussed the events as told over and over.  The writers were not even familiar with Jewish customs, roman procedure, or roman and Jewish laws. 
Either men dying and coming back to life wthen flying into the sky was a regular thing that no one else recorded it as it happened or else IT JUST DID NOT HAPPEN. 

BUT, I have not given you the chance to provide your new groundbreaking evidence yet.
Please proceed


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullethead the son is the proof. The blood of Christ is the proof. Christ rising from the dead is the proof he was sent to earth as proof. Now if you do not choose to believe the proof that's your choice but just say that.


Richie, if all you've got is some text written 1900+years ago by anonymous authors you are dead in the water before you even lined up for the race.
That evidence works for people who already believe. It doesn't hold up to the scrutiny that requires facts to back up.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie, if all you've got is some text written 1900+years ago by anonymous authors you are dead in the water before you even lined up for the race.
> That evidence works for people who already believe. It doesn't hold up to the scrutiny that requires facts to back up.



No unfortunately I believe it is you who are dead spiritually. But at least I got you to admit it the truth of the matter is that you don't believe the Bible. Which is fine because God gave you the freewill to do so. You think that the Bible is a lie and all believers experiences with the Holy Spirt are lies. But I can respect that opinion rather that you beating around a burning bush with your analogies and questions.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> No unfortunately I believe it is you who are dead spiritually. But at least I got you to admit it the truth of the matter is that you don't believe the Bible. Which is fine because God gave you the freewill to do so. You think that the Bible is a lie and all believers experiences with the Holy Spirt are lies. But I can respect that opinion rather that you beating around a burning bush with your analogies and questions.


Richie you did not just discover a major revelation here.  "Our" views have been willingly shared since day one. You are just late to the party.

To catch you up on things, there has not been a beleiver in here that has been able to produce a single shred of evidence outside of their holy books thata god of any sort exists...let alone a specific god exists, let alone what a god is responsible for, let alone it also just so happens to be the god you worship, let alone you know what that likes, thinks and does.

Until someone can provide us with a god at all, the rest is just wishful thinking by a bunch of people who still beleive in santa.

Now, I have already admitted that something so true as a god would not only be easy to prove but could not be denied as it would be the epitome of absolute truth.
You guys cant even get one to show up outside of writings from anonymous authors who took 1600 years to write about it. EVERY religion has a holy book which states how special their god is too.  They all have the same thing in common though and that is people who actually believe the nonsense and make excuses for a god that is a constant no show.

Do a search for any subject you think you want to discuss, it has probably been covered over many pages.  If you have something new to provide,  like actual proof, please do so. I want to be wrong so badly that I will convert on the spot. Maybe you are the guy your god sent to reveal him to me/us. Whatcha got?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie you did not just discover a major revelation here.  "Our" views have been willingly shared since day one. You are just late to the party.
> 
> To catch you up on things, there has not been a beleiver in here that has been able to produce a single shred of evidence outside of their holy books thata god of any sort exists...let alone a specific god exists, let alone what a god is responsible for, let alone it also just so happens to be the god you worship, let alone you know what that likes, thinks and does.
> Until someone can provide us with a god at all, the rest is just wishful thinking by a bunch of people who still beleive in santa.
> 
> Now, I have already admitted that something so true as a god would not only be easy to prove but could not be denied as it would be the epitome of absolute truth.
> You guys cant even get one to show up outside of writings from anonymous authors who took 1600 years to write about it. EVERY religion has a holy book which states how special their god is too.  They all have the same thing in common though and that is people who actually believe the nonsense and make excuses for a god that is a constant no show.
> 
> Do a search for any subject you think you want to discuss, it has probably been covered over many pages.  If you have something new to provide,  like actual proof, please do so. I want to be wrong so badly that I will convert on the spot. Maybe you are the guy your god sent to reveal him to me/us. Whatcha got?



So people today that have had experiences with the Holy spirit you believe to be lying. Such as speaking in tongues or being healed or actually hearing the voice of God.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> So people today that have had experiences with the Holy spirit you believe to be lying. Such as speaking in tongues or being healed or actually hearing the voice of God.


Yes. Yes I do.
I beleive that they have an experience. I believe it is psychological but not in a bad way. 
People all over the world heal miraculously. It happens.
People all over the world claim to hear their god.

If you, like welder,  want to use that as evidence that your god exists then you must beleive those people from other religions and admit that their gods are just as real.
Same evidence. Same claims.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Yes. Yes I do.
> I beleive that they have an experience. I believe it is psychological but not in a bad way.
> People all over the world heal miraculously. It happens.
> People all over the world claim to hear their god.
> 
> If you, like welder,  want to use that as evidence that your god exists then you must beleive those people from other religions and admit that their gods are just as real.
> Same evidence. Same claims.



Well we will all know the truth one day. At the end of our life when our time comes. So I guess you will have to wait until then to find out. Don't know if there is anything else I can share with you on My experiences that will help you understand My God. I will continue praying and reading your posts to see if anything comes to mind. May peace be with you.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Well we will all know the truth one day. At the end of our life when our time comes. So I guess you will have to wait until then to find out. Don't know if there is anything else I can share with you on My experiences that will help you understand My God. I will continue praying and reading your posts to see if anything comes to mind. May peace be with you.


Thanks for the kind words, peace be with you too.
In case you do not know, i used to be a believer.  20 plus years of my life. I was very devoted.
The more I searched to back up my thoughts the less I started to believe. It set off a life long quest to find the truth.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Yes. Yes I do.
> I beleive that they have an experience. I believe it is psychological but not in a bad way.
> People all over the world heal miraculously. It happens.
> People all over the world claim to hear their god.
> 
> If you, like welder,  want to use that as evidence that your god exists then you must beleive those people from other religions and admit that their gods are just as real.
> Same evidence. Same claims.



The counterfeits(unjust)get rain from the one true God the same as the true followers(just) do.
Many times I believe the heathen is blessed simply because of the presence of the righteous.(Sodom and Gamorrah would have been)

On another note, how can someone, who says they've never had an experience with the Holy Spirit, say that another, who has, is lying?
That is far more unprecedented than one ,who has had an experience, making that same statement.

Kinda like someone who has never been behind the wheel of a car, telling another,who has, how to drive.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> I can hardly wait for your explanation of how belief can be independent of the mind
> 
> I haven't posted in a while so I must say hello and hope all of you are doing well.



Hey Walt, I thought you were gone forever. Glad you're back.

I made the above statement based on my belief that the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

It can speak to an unborn child who's mind is not yet fully developed, as well as a comatose or mentally handicapped person.
It is self-sufficient. It does not need the help of man.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> The counterfeits(unjust)get rain from the one true God the same as the true followers(just) do.
> Many times I believe the heathen is blessed simply because of the presence of the righteous.(Sodom and Gamorrah would have been)
> 
> On another note, how can someone, who says they've never had an experience with the Holy Spirit, say that another, who has, is lying?
> That is far more unprecedented than one ,who has had an experience, making that same statement.
> 
> Kinda like someone who has never been behind the wheel of a car, telling another,who has, how to drive.


People say aliens abducted them and took them in a spaceship.
People say they saw bigfoot.
People say they see Elvis.
People say the holy spirt (not sure how they know it is the holy spirit or their powerful mind) has entered them. 

When people say unprovable things I tend to err on the side that they know they are virtually unprovable and therefore they get lumped into Tall Stories category until they can prove them. 

If you have a alien buddy, tell him to take me for a ride.
If you play in the woods with bigfoot, ask him to pose for a pic with you...or me.
If you are a guest a Graceland and watch The Voice with Elvis, get me a selfie.
If the holy spirit is in you then ask him, nicely, to come visit me. I have two shredded chicken bbq's in the crockpot and he/they are welcome to some and watch the game.

Now I dont want to point out your own hypocrisy in your last statement but since you brought it up....when is the last time you drove a Muslims car, a Jews car, a Hindus car, a Buddhists car etc etc etc X 10,000? You cant produce a drivers license let alone a car of your own.

I can say that the old stump in my yard told me that gods do not exist. I can tell you that stump has guided me through the best and worst times of my life. I can tell you that very stump has saved lives and performed miracles. You cannot prove that it didn't tell me that. You have not talked to that stump so does that make me correct by default?
You are quite lucky that I am honest with myself and others and do not say things that are outlandish and try to pass them off to you simply because I know that you cannot prove them wrong.
If I did say such nonsense I would expect you to ask me to prove it. I would expect you to ask me to provide evidence that corroborates my claims. 
That is all I expect from you.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Hey Walt, I thought you were gone forever. Glad you're back.
> 
> I made the above statement based on my belief that the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
> 
> It can speak to an unborn child who's mind is not yet fully developed, as well as a comatose or mentally handicapped person.
> It is self-sufficient. It does not need the help of man.


Coincidentally, the stump does all those exact same things, but its word is even sharper than your gods word! It is fact. It told me.

See how a declarative statement works? See how I can assert something and never back it up?
Do you understand that we are equal in our assertions and claims if neither of us are required to back it up with actual evidence?


----------



## bullethead

My grandmother who was 99yrs old last November is sadly slipping. In the last month her health has declined daily. So much so that last night the nurses thought she was on the telephone for a few hours. It turns out she was talking to her Dad all night. He died in the 1950s. All day today she knew who was there with her in the room and yet she was still holding conversations with her Dad at the same time.
Now some can argue that her dad is an angel, or a ghost, or some other spiritual entity or sign, but..she was talking to him like they were back on the farm when she was a little girl.
I doubt she will be with is much longer but that is not the point of this story.
The mind is so powerful and not yet understood. She can remember people from 60 years ago and cannot figure out the time on a digital clock. She knows the names of my wife's brother and sister and doesn't remember mine. She is not only talking to her father at the farm which she has not lived on in well over 75 years, but having in depth "real" conversations with him and the rest of us in the room at the same time.
I am glad that she seems very happy to be with her dad on the farm again and that she thinks we are on the farm with them too but it is her mind that is causing this to happen. She is dying. Her cells are dying. Her electrical impulses are causing current thoughts and past memories to coincide. Reality and dreams are taking place at the same time. The mind and body are able to go to levels that leave super computers in the dust.
It happens when we are healthy, intoxicated, depressed, euphoric, in love, in need, completely content, filled with hate and in every state of our existence at any time of our existence. 
It is examples like this that lead me to believe that it is more likely than not believers in ALL religions have absolutely wonderful life changing experiences that they attribute to higher powers, but, in actuality thier own minds and bodies are responsible.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> People say aliens abducted them and took them in a spaceship.
> People say they saw bigfoot.
> People say they see Elvis.
> People say the holy spirt (not sure how they know it is the holy spirit or their powerful mind) has entered them.
> 
> When people say unprovable things I tend to err on the side that they know they are virtually unprovable and therefore they get lumped into Tall Stories category until they can prove them.
> 
> If you have a alien buddy, tell him to take me for a ride.
> If you play in the woods with bigfoot, ask him to pose for a pic with you...or me.
> If you are a guest a Graceland and watch The Voice with Elvis, get me a selfie.
> I have two shredded chicken bbq's in the crockpot and he/they are welcome to some and watch the game.
> 
> Now I dont want to point out your own hypocrisy in your last statement but since you brought it up....You cant produce a drivers license let alone a car of your own.
> 
> I can say that the old stump in my yard told me that gods do not exist. I can tell you that stump has guided me through the best and worst times of my life. I can tell you that very stump has saved lives and performed miracles. You cannot prove that it didn't tell me that. You have not talked to that stump so does that make me correct by default?
> You are quite lucky that I am honest with myself and others and do not say things that are outlandish and try to pass them off to you simply because I know that you cannot prove them wrong.
> If I did say such nonsense I would expect you to ask me to prove it. I would expect you to ask me to provide evidence that corroborates my claims.
> That is all I expect from you.



You said:
"If the holy spirit is in you then ask him, nicely, to come visit me."

I say that I have and do almost daily.It's not up to me.



You said "when is the last time you drove a Muslims car, a Jews car, a   Hindus car, a Buddhists car etc etc etc X 10,000?"

I say that I would have a much more productive argument with the Muslim,the Jew,the Hindu, and the Buddhist than I have with you because of the fact at least they are open-minded to supernatural/spiritual type phenomena. (Paul did that on Mar's hill)



You said you have a stump in your yard that has powers.

To that, I would have to ask you, "are you being honest?"
What would your reply to that be?

Remember, we are seeking truth here, not the perception of truth, but the actual bonafied truth.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> My grandmother who was 99yrs old last November is sadly slipping. In the last month her health has declined daily. So much so that last night the nurses thought she was on the telephone for a few hours. It turns out she was talking to her Dad all night. He died in the 1950s. All day today she knew who was there with her in the room and yet she was still holding conversations with her Dad at the same time.
> Now some can argue that her dad is an angel, or a ghost, or some other spiritual entity or sign, but..she was talking to him like they were back on the farm when she was a little girl.
> I doubt she will be with is much longer but that is not the point of this story.
> The mind is so powerful and not yet understood. She can remember people from 60 years ago and cannot figure out the time on a digital clock. She knows the names of my wife's brother and sister and doesn't remember mine. She is not only talking to her father at the farm which she has not lived on in well over 75 years, but having in depth "real" conversations with him and the rest of us in the room at the same time.
> I am glad that she seems very happy to be with her dad on the farm again and that she thinks we are on the farm with them too but it is her mind that is causing this to happen. She is dying. Her cells are dying. Her electrical impulses are causing current thoughts and past memories to coincide. Reality and dreams are taking place at the same time. The mind and body are able to go to levels that leave super computers in the dust.
> It happens when we are healthy, intoxicated, depressed, euphoric, in love, in need, completely content, filled with hate and in every state of our existence at any time of our existence.
> It is examples like this that lead me to believe that it is more likely than not believers in ALL religions have absolutely wonderful life changing experiences that they attribute to higher powers, but, in actuality thier own minds and bodies are responsible.



First of all, let me say I'm sorry you may be at the point of losing your Grandmother, but that it is good to know she is at peace.

Second, I agree with you about how complex and powerful the mind is. It is more complex than we even know. And I know the mind,though very useful in many many capacities, often fails and many times processes information in error.
But, what I have been trying to tell you is God is bigger and far more complex than the mind(He created it). And He reaches His people initially by means that do not involve the mind. It involves the spirit.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You said:
> "If the holy spirit is in you then ask him, nicely, to come visit me."
> 
> I say that I have and do almost daily.It's not up to me.
> 
> 
> 
> You said "when is the last time you drove a Muslims car, a Jews car, a   Hindus car, a Buddhists car etc etc etc X 10,000?"
> 
> I say that I would have a much more productive argument with the Muslim,the Jew,the Hindu, and the Buddhist than I have with you because of the fact at least they are open-minded to supernatural/spiritual type phenomena. (Paul did that on Mar's hill)
> 
> 
> 
> You said you have a stump in your yard that has powers.
> 
> To that, I would have to ask you, "are you being honest?"
> What would your reply to that be?
> 
> Remember, we are seeking truth here, not the perception of truth, but the actual bonafied truth.


Yeah, its up to bigfoot and Elvis too.

You don't talk to anyone else that is as fanatical with another religion because you will see the same excuses from them that you give me.
You said that you'd  have a much more productive argument with them....But the truth is you don't talk to them so you have no idea what their experiences are but that does not stop you from immediately dismissing their testimony.
Reread the section regarding the stump. Your question was answered before you asked it.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> First of all, let me say I'm sorry you may be at the point of losing your Grandmother, but that it is good to know she is at peace.
> 
> Second, I agree with you about how complex and powerful the mind is. It is more complex than we even know. And I know the mind,though very useful in many many capacities, often fails and many times processes information in error.
> But, what I have been trying to tell you is God is bigger and far more complex than the mind(He created it). And He reaches His people initially by means that do not involve the mind. It involves the spirit.



I do appreciate your kind words.

Again though, you take reality and then intertwine your assertive declarative statements about a god, what a god does,  what a god thinks,  what a god does, how a god operates....and all because that is what you THINK would happen if you were a god.
It is improbable,  unprovable and you run with it because it only exists in your complex mind because that is what you NEED.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I do appreciate your kind words.
> 
> Again though, you take reality and then intertwine your assertive declarative statements about a god, what a god does,  what a god thinks,  what a god does, how a god operates....and all because that is what you THINK would happen if you were a god.
> It is improbable,  unprovable and you run with it because it only exists in your complex mind because that is what you NEED.



It's like I'm on one side of a wall and you're on the other side. You can't see what I see and I can't show it to you. I can only describe what I see as honestly and as detailed as I can, but you think I'm trying to mess with you or something.
Did it ever occur to you that maybe you missed something when you thought you believed before?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> It's like I'm on one side of a wall and you're on the other side. You can't see what I see and I can't show it to you. I can only describe what I see as honestly and as detailed as I can, but you think I'm trying to mess with you or something.
> Did it ever occur to you that maybe you missed something when you thought you believed before?


Yes, exactly. On my side of the wall reality abounds. On your side Walter Mitty is the tour guide in your world. 
Welder you have not described anything that you see outside of your imagination.

It did occur to me that I was absolutely missing something when I was a believer.
Evidence.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Yes, exactly. On my side of the wall reality abounds. On your side Walter Mitty is the tour guide in your world.
> Welder you have not described anything that you see outside of your imagination.
> 
> It did occur to me that I was absolutely missing something when I was a believer.
> Evidence.



See, how could you even make the assumption that my tour guide is Walter Mitty if you can't see what I see? I never told you he was.

You have to stop making assumptions and listen to what I'm honestly describing.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> See, how could you even make the assumption that my tour guide is Walter Mitty if you can't see what I see? I never told you he was.
> 
> You have to stop making assumptions and listen to what I'm honestly describing.


Welder, I make assumptions in jest.
You live by assumptions and not facts.

You are right about one thing. I cannot see what you see. Nobody can. All the greatest crystal ball readers and psychics rely on that same "gift". Every one of them has been debunked too.
Keep doing what you are doing. It obviously makes you happy and a caring person.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, I make assumptions in jest.
> You live by assumptions and not facts.
> 
> You are right about one thing. I cannot see what you see. Nobody can. All the greatest crystal ball readers and psychics rely on that same "gift". Every one of them has been debunked too.
> Keep doing what you are doing. It obviously makes you happy and a caring person.



How can you say I don't live by facts in one breath, and then say you can't see what I see in another?

I say, it's because you can't see the facts that I see.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> How can you say I don't live by facts in one breath, and then say you can't see what I see in another?
> 
> I say, it's because you can't see the facts that I see.


Facts are provable. Facts are a result of evidence.
You have no provable evidence.

You keep on telling us the proof and evidence is in your vision as in what you can see that others cannot.
That is the talk of a scam artist and a professional one at that.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> How can you say I don't live by facts in one breath, and then say you can't see what I see in another?
> 
> I say, it's because you can't see the facts that I see.


Quit whatever your current profession is.
Start a hotline so you can tell people what you see. P.T. Barnum guarantees you a lot of business.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Facts are provable. Facts are a result of evidence.
> You have no provable evidence.
> 
> You keep on telling us the proof and evidence is in your vision as in what you can see that others cannot.
> That is the talk of a scam artist and a professional one at that.



In post 150, you said it was obvious to you that I was a caring person.
Aside from the fact that a scam artist is not a caring person, what I hear you saying loudest is that,although you don't know me in reality, you base your opinion of me solely on some things I've typed.(no proof)

But, other things I've typed don't get the same open-mindedness. Why do you trust certain things about me and not others when you really can't see any of it?

BTW, thanks for the compliment.I do care.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> In post 150, you said it was obvious to you that I was a caring person.
> Aside from the fact that a scam artist is not a caring person, what I hear you saying loudest is that,although you don't know me in reality, you base your opinion of me solely on some things I've typed.(no proof)
> 
> But, other things I've typed don't get the same open-mindedness. Why do you trust certain things about me and not others when you really can't see any of it?
> 
> BTW, thanks for the compliment.I do care.


You seem like you mean well. You believe your own thoughts and I do not think that you are making them up to purposely deceive anyone.
I also do not think that you posess any special abilities given to you by any spirit that enables you to see things more clearly regarding a god. I believe that you believe you do. 
I am only able to use the information that you provide in your posts and none of it is tangible as you admit yourself that what you type is of no proof.

I am able to be open minded about the parts of your posts that are provable through evidence. Your claims of visions and feelings are such that you are unable to provide anything to back up their validity.
Those traits are prevalent in scam artists that know they are lying and purposely try to dupe others into believing them.
I don't think you are lying and purposely trying to deceive anyone, I just think you see what you need to see, you believe it, but you absolutely cannot back it up with any tangible proof.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Thanks for the kind words, peace be with you too.
> In case you do not know, i used to be a believer.  20 plus years of my life. I was very devoted.
> The more I searched to back up my thoughts the less I started to believe. It set off a life long quest to find the truth.



Not to be nosey. But I am just wondering what made you change your mind. I am just trying to figure out if the devil is playing a role here to keep you from a relationship with the Father.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Not to be nosey. But I am just wondering what made you change your mind. I am just trying to figure out if the devil is playing a role here to keep you from a relationship with the Father.


My story is well told in threads througout here.

The devil....please.

So an all powerful and all knowledgeable god didnt know someone was plotting against him and when he finally finds out all he can do is send it to a firery prison for eternity??
And oh by the way, while the most evil force is locked up this all powerful god allows it to wreak havoc upon the children god supposedly loves??
And your god does nothing, not even a finger snap, to rid the world if this troublemaker.

That doesnt sound like a couple thousand year old tale at all.
Next you will tell me that the only way to fix the attitudes of some belligerent humans is to drown them all....

Luckily you are on the side of good and are a devil decipherer. Kind of like a sidekick.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You seem like you mean well. You believe your own thoughts and I do not think that you are making them up to purposely deceive anyone.
> I also do not think that you posess any special abilities given to you by any spirit that enables you to see things more clearly regarding a god. I believe that you believe you do.
> I am only able to use the information that you provide in your posts and none of it is tangible as you admit yourself that what you type is of no proof.
> 
> I am able to be open minded about the parts of your posts that are provable through evidence. Your claims of visions and feelings are such that you are unable to provide anything to back up their validity.
> Those traits are prevalent in scam artists that know they are lying and purposely try to dupe others into believing them.
> I don't think you are lying and purposely trying to deceive anyone, I just think you see what you need to see, you believe it, but you absolutely cannot back it up with any tangible proof.



You keep saying that the Bible was written by anonymous writers years after the events happened. Why do you think this?
We know who wrote each book except maybe Hebrews. And the requirement of an apostle was to be an eye witness of Jesus. So I don't see your position on this.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> You keep saying that the Bible was written by anonymous writers years after the events happened. Why do you think this?
> We know who wrote each book except maybe Hebrews. And the requirement of an apostle was to be an eye witness of Jesus. So I don't see your position on this.





> We know who wrote each book except maybe Hebrews


You stepped into it here


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> You stepped into it here



I'm not trying to cause an argument, I'm just curious about why he would think this.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> My story is well told in threads througout here.
> 
> The devil....please.
> 
> So an all powerful and all knowledgeable god didnt know someone was plotting against him and when he finally finds out all he can do is send it to a firery prison for eternity??
> And oh by the way, while the most evil force is locked up this all powerful god allows it to wreak havoc upon the children god supposedly loves??
> And your god does nothing, not even a finger snap, to rid the world if this troublemaker.
> 
> That doesnt sound like a couple thousand year old tale at all.
> Next you will tell me that the only way to fix the attitudes of some belligerent humans is to drown them all....
> 
> Luckily you are on the side of good and are a devil decipherer. Kind of like a sidekick.



Sounds like I hit a nerve there. Who said anything about drowning? You sound like your angry because you don't understand Gods plan. He doesn't promise life will be a bed of roses and he will answer every prayer. Have you ever thought about once a soul is created it cannot be destroyed. Maybe that why he only banished him to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.


----------



## centerpin fan

red neck richie said:


> Sounds like I hit a nerve there. Who said anything about drowning? You sound like your angry because you don't understand Gods plan. He doesn't promise life will be a bed of roses and he will answer every prayer. Have you ever thought about once a soul is created it cannot be destroyed. Maybe that why he only banished him to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.



Your Jedi mind tricks won't work on bullethead.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You keep saying that the Bible was written by anonymous writers years after the events happened. Why do you think this?
> We know who wrote each book except maybe Hebrews. And the requirement of an apostle was to be an eye witness of Jesus. So I don't see your position on this.


You are incorrect.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I'm not trying to cause an argument, I'm just curious about why he would think this.



Because I live in reality and deal with facts.
I research things that I talk about from many sources, not just the one I want to hear, and go with the preponderance of evidence.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Sounds like I hit a nerve there. Who said anything about drowning? You sound like your angry because you don't understand Gods plan. He doesn't promise life will be a bed of roses and he will answer every prayer. Have you ever thought about once a soul is created it cannot be destroyed. Maybe that why he only banished him to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.


God cannot destroy a soul?
Not much of a god imo.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You are incorrect.



Incorrect about what specifically?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Incorrect about what specifically?



Your entire post #158.
Do your homework.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> I'm not trying to cause an argument, I'm just curious about why he would think this.


What we know and what we don't know about the authors of the various books of the Bible is very well documented.
Biblical scholars spend their entire careers researching the subject.
*Bullet knows this and he knows what the research is*, that's why "he would think this".


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Richie, if all you've got is some text written 1900+years ago by anonymous authors you are dead in the water before you even lined up for the race.
> That evidence works for people who already believe. It doesn't hold up to the scrutiny that requires facts to back up.



Anonymous ?
We know the names of the writers. (except Hebrews)


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> What we know and what we don't know about the authors of the various books of the Bible is very well documented.
> Biblical scholars spend their entire careers researching the subject.
> *Bullet knows this and he knows what the research is*, that's why "he would think this".



Spell it out in one sentence what you're trying to say and I'll be satisfied.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Spell it out in one sentence what you're trying to say and I'll be satisfied.


You think the name on the book is who wrote the book.
Bullet knows that has been proven wrong.
Took 2 sentences


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Anonymous ?
> We know the names of the writers. (except Hebrews)


You get an F on your homework.
I am done playing the games welder. You are either willingly clueless or purposely ignorant.
At this point I no longer care which.
You were involved in earlier threads that discussed this and if by chance you were not then search for them.
I really do not care that you will not research anything. You do not take my word for it. You do not read my links when I post them. You refuse to face facts.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You get an F on your homework.
> I am done playing the games welder. You are either willingly clueless or purposely ignorant.
> At this point I no longer care which.
> You were involved in earlier threads that discussed this and if by chance you were not then search for them.
> I really do not care that you will not research anything. You do not take my word for it. You do not read my links when I post them. You refuse to face facts.



Definitely not playing games. Thought we could have a civil conversation about something that sparked my curiosity but obviously you are in some sort of funk. Maybe its your grandmother. If so, I understand.Its OK don't worry about it.


----------



## fireman32

What is true to a blind man? I don't personally know anyone that's blind, but how do you prove a rainbow exists to them?  He can physically understand math and hear things,  but you can't feel a rainbow.  I'm not saying this is proof of God, but maybe what is true requires some "faith".


----------



## bullethead

fireman32 said:


> What is true to a blind man? I don't personally know anyone that's blind, but how do you prove a rainbow exists to them?  He can physically understand math and hear things,  but you can't feel a rainbow.  I'm not saying this is proof of God, but maybe what is true requires some "faith".


Rainbows exist. There is scientific evidence. There is scientific examples. Science understands how light refraction causes rainbows and when these condidtions are met and replicated a rainbow occurs.

I understand you are using "blind" as some sort of poetic metaphor but it doesn't really work here. For literally hundreds of reasons people conjur up their version of a higher power and their relationship to that higher power and also how they convince themselves how they have a more personal relationship with the power than the next person. It exists worldwide. But it also varies per individual. So if there is one true god, it does not stand out above any other.

Just remember, it takes faith to believe in the make believe also.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Definitely not playing games. Thought we could have a civil conversation about something that sparked my curiosity but obviously you are in some sort of funk. Maybe its your grandmother. If so, I understand.Its OK don't worry about it.


It has nothing to do with anything other than your ways on here. 
Never, not even once in any discussion, have you informed yourself about an alternate possibility and discussed that source.
You refuse to acknowledge that scholars, scientists, archeologists, historians, have overwhelming evidence that contradict many things in the bible.
You do not so much as use their work to try to even pick it apart. All you do is keep your nose in the book that you believe is the truth and say the same old disoroven nonsense over and over and over.
Dont be so disingenous to say you are curious or interested in finding out anything other than the same old obliterated arguments that you have used a thousand times over.
You ask, we show, we back with evidence and you continue on as if we haven't.
We ask, you show us nothing, we show you why it is nothing and you continue on as if we haven't.
Why continue


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> It has nothing to do with anything other than your ways on here.
> Never, not even once in any discussion, have you informed yourself about an alternate possibility and discussed that source.
> You refuse to acknowledge that scholars, scientists, archeologists, historians, have overwhelming evidence that contradict many things in the bible.
> You do not so much as use their work to try to even pick it apart. All you do is keep your nose in the book that you believe is the truth and say the same old disoroven nonsense over and over and over.
> Dont be so disingenous to say you are curious or interested in finding out anything other than the same old obliterated arguments that you have used a thousand times over.
> You ask, we show, we back with evidence and you continue on as if we haven't.
> We ask, you show us nothing, we show you why it is nothing and you continue on as if we haven't.
> Why continue



Good morning Mr. Hyde, any idea when Dr. Jekyll will be back? I'd like to speak to him about the ridiculous Piso theory. By the way, that's a nice looking high horse you're sitting on there.


----------



## bullethead

Welder I am not out to change your mind  nor anyone else's mind.
I have always admitted that even I do not know if a god exists or what is out there somewhere.
I  just dont know.
What I am able to do, using available evidence, is to counter much of what is written in the bible with facts based off of evidence gained by research done by myself and many way more qualified others.
That is what took me from being you and using your one sided solves all source to becoming more aware about what I thought and  not am more educated about how the religion I was a part of came to be, to why most of it is legend and folklore. Simple evidence is the difference.
Mr. Hyde  is all there is and all there ever was. I can play nice when I have to but have no trouble calling bull snot when it presents itself.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder I am not out to change your mind  nor anyone else's mind.
> I have always admitted that even I do not know if a god exists or what is out there somewhere.
> I  just dont know.
> What I am able to do, using available evidence, is to counter much of what is written in the bible with facts based off of evidence gained by research done by myself and many way more qualified others.
> That is what took me from being you and using your one sided solves all source to becoming more aware about what I thought and  not am more educated about how the religion I was a part of came to be, to why most of it is legend and folklore. Simple evidence is the difference.
> Mr. Hyde  is all there is and all there ever was. I can play nice when I have to but have no trouble calling bull snot when it presents itself.



I can't hear you because of all the sounding brass and tinkling cymbals.
It was much quieter two days ago.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> You think the name on the book is who wrote the book.
> Bullet knows that has been proven wrong.
> Took 2 sentences



It has not been proven wrong. It is only a theory.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> It has not been proven wrong. It is only a theory.


What is only a theory?


----------



## bullethead

Good luck Walt.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> What is only a theory?



Piso theory(I mentioned it in post 177)


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Piso theory(I mentioned it in post 177)


Yes. Agreed. The Piso theory is only a theory.
It has not been proven to be true and it proves nothing.


----------



## red neck richie

centerpin fan said:


> Your Jedi mind tricks won't work on bullethead.



Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.


----------



## centerpin fan

red neck richie said:


> Anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.



I don't think BH is angry.


----------



## bullethead

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think BH is angry.


CorrectAmundo CenterpinArelli


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Mr. Hyde  is all there is and all there ever was. I can play nice when I have to but have no trouble calling bull snot when it presents itself.



"Mr. Hyde is all there is and all there ever was. I can play nice when I have to...."

And he calls me the hypocrite.

Now that's what is really "bull snot".


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> "Mr. Hyde is all there is and all there ever was. I can play nice when I have to...."
> 
> And he calls me the hypocrite.
> 
> Now that's what is really "bull snot".



Get over it wailder, we weren't going steady.

Start a new thread on why you think the Piso theory is incorrect by breaking down it's arguments.

Lololol, I almost kept a straight face there...


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Get over it wailder, we weren't going steady.
> 
> Start a new thread on why you think the Piso theory is incorrect by breaking down it's arguments.
> 
> Lololol, I almost kept a straight face there...



Ha! 
I'd rather eat linoleum !


----------



## Artfuldodger

Off topic but remember when we had linoleum tablecloths? They were also known as oilcloth.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Ha!
> I'd rather eat linoleum !



I think my point was already made but thank you for your personal support.


----------



## centerpin fan

bullethead said:


> Get over it wailder, we weren't going steady.



Maybe not, but I see a hit TV show in the making:


----------



## bullethead

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe not, but I see a hit TV show in the making:



L-O to the L


----------



## welderguy

Is this what you had in mind CPF ?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Is this what you had in mind CPF ?



You would rather eat linoleum than take the time to research, educate yourself, and talk about a subject that YOU suggested we discuss, but you have and take the time to photoshop the work of someone else  in order to try to lead the conversation away from the direction you took it and hope nobody will ask you back up the claims about a subject you  wanted to dicuss.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You would rather eat linoleum than take the time to research, educate yourself, and talk about a subject that YOU suggested we discuss, but you have and take the time to photoshop the work of someone else  in order to try to lead the conversation away from the direction you took it and hope nobody will ask you back up the claims about a subject you  wanted to dicuss.


Dude, lighten up a little. It's just a timing issue. I started a new job this week working off a ten story building.Besides, you're the one who seems most giddy to discuss this. Me, not so much anymore. (you kinda took the wind out of the sails with your negativity)Why don't you discuss your view of it and I'll respond when I can(I have a very slow fitter).Walt already gave me all the affirmation I need anyway....And, it literally took about 12 minutes to Photoshop that pic.

PS. Is that Blizzard hitting your area?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Dude, lighten up a little. It's just a timing issue. I started a new job this week working off a ten story building.
> Besides, you're the one who seems most giddy to discuss this. Me, not so much anymore. (you kinda took the wind out of the sails with your negativity)Why don't you discuss your view of it and I'll respond when I can(I have a very slow fitter).
> Walt already gave me all the affirmation I need anyway.
> 
> ...And, it literally took about 12 minutes to Photoshop that pic.


I'm not doing your homework for you only to have you tell me all the right answers are wrong with no knowledge of why you claim they are wrong and no facts to back up your refutation.
I am not giddy to discuss it. I am happy to be able show yet another example of how you want to talk about subjects which you have no knowledge of other than a title or quick paragraph which you then make a definitive statement about. Meanwhile you refuse to take the time to educate yourself about the very subject you want to discuss.

I is telling that because Walt told you what you wanted to hear you are satisfied and yet had Walt disagreed you wouldn't have been able to tell him why he may ir may not be wrong other than using some Bible quote.  You wouldn't and don't take the time to actually research the theory, the arguments for the theory the details within the theory and break them down and pick them apart with researched facts.
You say "its just a theory" and move on.
I only brought it up because you gave me the perfect example of what I have been saying about your discussion style in every conversation you are involved in here.

In 12 minutes you could have read 3 articles about the Piso family connection to the early start of the organized church.


----------



## bullethead

Its just 6" to 10" of snow. We don't get worried till about 20" hits the ground,  then its a problem.
Thanks for asking tho.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Dude, lighten up a little. It's just a timing issue. I started a new job this week working off a ten story building.Besides, you're the one who seems most giddy to discuss this. Me, not so much anymore. (you kinda took the wind out of the sails with your negativity)Why don't you discuss your view of it and I'll respond when I can(I have a very slow fitter).Walt already gave me all the affirmation I need anyway....And, it literally took about 12 minutes to Photoshop that pic.
> 
> PS. Is that Blizzard hitting your area?





> Walt already gave me all the affirmation I need anyway....


What I affirmed was that the Piso theory was indeed just a theory. Its one of many theories. It has little to no bearing on the subject being discussed.
Again -


> What we know and what we don't know about the authors of the various books of the Bible is very well documented.


----------



## 660griz

bullethead said:


> I appreciate the honesty.
> 
> If your experience is proof that God exists, is their experiences equally as accurate proof that their god or gods exists?



They don't need experiences or proof. Which is probably a good thing because no proof can be found.
Faith, by definition, is belief without proof. 
"Strong belief in God or the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof"

How or why do some folks 'see' evidence of God? The mind is a powerful thing. Books are, and have been, filled with what supernatural things folks have seen, or heard, or 'felt'.

When I was young, I watched the movie 'Grizzly'. That same day, my brother took my camping. He then left to go back into town to do some work. When the sun went down, I saw Grizzlies everywhere...in South Carolina.


----------



## WaltL1

660griz said:


> They don't need experiences or proof. Which is probably a good thing because no proof can be found.
> Faith, by definition, is belief without proof.
> "Strong belief in God or the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof"
> 
> How or why do some folks 'see' evidence of God? The mind is a powerful thing. Books are, and have been, filled with what supernatural things folks have seen, or heard, or 'felt'.
> 
> When I was young, I watched the movie 'Grizzly'. That same day, my brother took my camping. He then left to go back into town to do some work. When the sun went down, I saw Grizzlies everywhere...in South Carolina.


Those low country grizzlies are the worst !


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> What I affirmed was that the Piso theory was indeed just a theory. Its one of many theories. It has little to no bearing on the subject being discussed.
> Again -



Precisely Walt. You merely agreed that it was a theory and that was all the information that welder needed to connect every dot.
And I am beginning to think the Piso theory is what welder thinks I was talking about when I mentioned about the writings.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Precisely Walt. You merely agreed that it was a theory and that was all the information that welder needed to connect every dot.
> And I am beginning to think the Piso theory is what welder thinks I was talking about when I mentioned about the writings.



Question:

The apostles made the emphatic case that they were eyewitnesses of Jesus, His miracles, and His ressurection. They also made the case that they were among the various authors of the New Testament.

My question is, why, (if all the above is false), weren't the writings rejected by EVERY single eyewitness of the time period and proven to be false in that day?

I'm not asking for so-called  falsifications from writers much later, which can be dug up on the internet by the handfuls now. I want to know about those first-hand  eyewitnesses that supposedly refuted the apostle's testimony.


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> Precisely Walt. You merely agreed that it was a theory and that was all the information that welder needed to connect every dot.
> And I am beginning to think the Piso theory is what welder thinks I was talking about when I mentioned about the writings.


"Because that one particular theory, out of all the theories on the subject, hasn't been proven to be true, that proves MY  theory is true".
How convenient


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Precisely Walt. You merely agreed that it was a theory and that was all the information that welder needed to connect every dot.
> And I am beginning to think the Piso theory is what welder thinks I was talking about when I mentioned about the writings.



Y'all can present any theory you want you have obviously made your mind up. So I asked myself why do I keep coming back to this post when I know you are going to try to disprove anything I say. I came to the conclusion that it is bothersome to me that you might not be in the kingdom of heaven. You might not get to spend eternity with the Father or reunite with your love ones that have passed before you. I would love to witness your joy and to witness this take place. I will continue to pray for each of you. That God would speak to your hearts and give you the proof you are looking for.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Question:
> 
> The apostles made the emphatic case that they were eyewitnesses of Jesus, His miracles, and His ressurection. They also made the case that they were among the various authors of the New Testament.
> 
> My question is, why, (if all the above is false), weren't the writings rejected by EVERY single eyewitness of the time period and proven to be false in that day?
> 
> I'm not asking for so-called  falsifications from writers much later, which can be dug up on the internet by the handfuls now. I want to know about those first-hand  eyewitnesses that supposedly refuted the apostle's testimony.


Where and to whom did they make the case that they were among the various authors of the NT?

Answer to your question:
20, 30 40 50 60 and even 70 years passed before ANY writings were written.
The average person most likely had no idea such things were written and definitely had ZERO access to any of them. 
These writings were not part of the church until LONG after Jesus and most people alive at the time it supposedly occured were long dead. Most people did not live very long back then.
And NOBODY...I MEAN NOBODY that supposedly witnessed Jesus rise from the dead, ascend into the sky, heal anybody, perform miracles etc ever recorded it as it happened. NOBODY. literally  NOBODY.
The writings that are the gospels could not be proved wrong at the time because they were not written at that time. 

You REALLY need to research  your own religions history before you use how you think it happened as fact.
This is and always has been your achilles heel.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Y'all can present any theory you want you have obviously made your mind up. So I asked myself why do I keep coming back to this post when I know you are going to try to disprove anything I say. I came to the conclusion that it is bothersome to me that you might not be in the kingdom of heaven. You might not get to spend eternity with the Father or reunite with your love ones that have passed before you. I would love to witness your joy and to witness this take place. I will continue to pray for each of you. That God would speak to your hearts and give you the proof you are looking for.


Well thanks, but how do you know any of my loved ones are in heaven? How do you know any of your loved ones are in heaven? You seem sure that you are gonna be there.
I am glad that these types of things allow you to stay comfortable with your own mortality. 
I live a great life and am fine that is all there is.


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> "Because that one particular theory, out of all the theories on the subject, hasn't been proven to be true, that proves MY  theory is true".
> How convenient



Walt, welder doesn't even take the time to learn the history of his own religion and he thinks he can argue the research from the ones who make their living doing it.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Well thanks, but how do you know any of my loved ones are in heaven? How do you know any of your loved ones are in heaven? You seem sure that you are gonna be there.
> I am glad that these types of things allow you to stay comfortable with your own mortality.
> I live a great life and am fine that is all there is.



You live a great life and are fine on earth but what about the afterlife? What about your soul? Have you considered if you were God forbid wrong? What then? I'm not trying to scare you I'm just wondering if you have given thought to it.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> You live a great life and are fine on earth but what about the afterlife? What about your soul? Have you considered if you were God forbid wrong? What then? I'm not trying to scare you I'm just wondering if you have given thought to it.


I have come to terms with those thoughts many years ago. I am not scared one bit.
If there is some sort of god that judges an individuals life by that individuals actions then I am a shoe in.
If there is a god that ignores my life here and requires me to kiss its derriere  to get in...no thanks.
And with over 10,000 versions of gods throughout the history of humans what if you chose the wrong one?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Where and to whom did they make the case that they were among the various authors of the NT?
> 
> Answer to your question:
> 20, 30 40 50 60 and even 70 years passed before ANY writings were written.
> The average person most likely had no idea such things were written and definitely had ZERO access to any of them.
> These writings were not part of the church until LONG after Jesus and most people alive at the time it supposedly occured were long dead. Most people did not live very long back then.
> And NOBODY...I MEAN NOBODY that supposedly witnessed Jesus rise from the dead, ascend into the sky, heal anybody, perform miracles etc ever recorded it as it happened. NOBODY. literally  NOBODY.
> The writings that are the gospels could not be proved wrong at the time because they were not written at that time.
> 
> You REALLY need to research  your own religions history before you use how you think it happened as fact.
> This is and always has been your achilles heel.



Luke certainly claimed it.

Luke 1

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.


My point in this is that Luke claimed to be an eyewitness to Jesus, among "many others",he says. And Luke is writing his account of it as he saw it firsthand. Even the secular non-believing writers of the day did not refute it. Prove me wrong. I haven't found it.(keywords "of the day")


I found this on an atheist website,of all places.:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Jesus-apparently-existed-outside-of-the-bible


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I have come to terms with those thoughts many years ago. I am not scared one bit.
> If there is some sort of god that judges an individuals life by that individuals actions then I am a shoe in.
> If there is a god that ignores my life here and requires me to kiss its derriere  to get in...no thanks.
> And with over 10,000 versions of gods throughout the history of humans what if you chose the wrong one?



I was hoping you would ask that or I kinda already knew you would. If for the sake of debate I am wrong which I know I'm not. Then we are both just dust in the wind.  No harm no foul. If I am right and you are wrong. Are you sure you are a shoe in? Because it may just be me but I thought you had a different theory.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Luke certainly claimed it.
> 
> Luke 1
> 
> 1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,
> 2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
> 3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
> 4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.
> 
> 
> My point in this is that Luke claimed to be an eyewitness to Jesus, among "many others",he says. And Luke is writing his account of it as he saw it firsthand. Even the secular non-believing writers of the day did not refute it. Prove me wrong. I haven't found it.(keywords "of the day")
> 
> 
> I found this on an atheist website,of all places.:
> 
> http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Jesus-apparently-existed-outside-of-the-bible


It took him 30 years until he decided to record the events.
That is really sumpin


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I was hoping you would ask that or I kinda already knew you would. If for the sake of debate I am wrong which I know I'm not. Then we are both just dust in the wind.  No harm no foul. If I am right and you are wrong. Are you sure you are a shoe in? Because it may just be me but I thought you had a different theory.


What if we are not just dust and we are both wrong?
Who or what else should we worship to cover all bases just in case?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> It took him 30 years until he decided to record the events.
> That is really sumpin



Regardless, he was still very much alive and so were many others.
Remember, he was kinda busy preaching.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> What if we are not just dust and we are both wrong?
> Who or what else should we worship to cover all bases just in case?



Third post in a row I already knew what you were going to say before you said it. Your answer is I only have one base and it is home plate. He doesn't make it difficult in fact its very simple and clear. For God so loved the world that he gave his only son that who ever believes in him shall not parish but have everlasting life. And I could be wrong but I think that is the only shoe in.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Regardless, he was still very much alive and so were many others.
> Remember, he was kinda busy preaching.



Who Luke?

Luke was written about 60ce. Jesus was dead 27 years at that point.

Not one single contemporary historian that lived right there with Jesus, who would have witnessed Jesus in action or at least would have talked to dozens upon dozens of people that came to him to tell him about Jesus in action, never wrote a single thing about him. Nobody.
Luke wrote what Paul told him.

Now follow up on Paul for a couple weeks and see where that rabbit takes you.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Who Luke?
> 
> Luke was written about 60ce. Jesus was dead 27 years at that point.
> 
> Not one single contemporary historian that lived right there with Jesus, who would have witnessed Jesus in action or at least would have talked to dozens upon dozens of people that came to him to tell him about Jesus in action, never wrote a single thing about him. Nobody.
> Luke wrote what Paul told him.
> 
> Now follow up on Paul for a couple weeks and see where that rabbit takes you.



Well it would'nt be a popular thing to do at the time you know the whole being crucified for you speaking out thing. Just saying.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Who Luke?
> 
> Luke was written about 60ce. Jesus was dead 27 years at that point.
> 
> Not one single contemporary historian that lived right there with Jesus, who would have witnessed Jesus in action or at least would have talked to dozens upon dozens of people that came to him to tell him about Jesus in action, never wrote a single thing about him. Nobody.
> Luke wrote what Paul told him.
> 
> Now follow up on Paul for a couple weeks and see where that rabbit takes you.



Yes Luke.
Along with many other eyewitnesses to the actual events.
And we do not know if anything was written by the contemporary historians(during Jesus' lifetime) because nothing has been found...Unlike the many archaeological finds supporting many events and  people of the bible.
I found this to be very interesting from the article, didn't you?

"Some German higher-critical scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries had questioned Jesus' existence, pointing out that such key figures as Pontius Pilate and the chief priest Joseph Caiaphas in the Gospel accounts had never been confirmed as real. No rebuttal was possible until the mid-20th century.

Archaeologists in 1962 confirmed Pilate's existence when they discovered his name included in an inscription on an excavated stone. Likewise, the existence of Caiaphas was uncertain until 1990, when an ossuary (bone box) was discovered bearing his inscription. Archaeologists have also discovered what they believe to be Simon Peter's house and a cave where John the Baptist did his baptizing."


----------



## welderguy

The Pilate Stone


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Yes Luke.
> Along with many other eyewitnesses to the actual events.
> And we do not know if anything was written by the contemporary historians(during Jesus' lifetime) because nothing has been found...Unlike the many archaeological finds supporting many events and  people of the bible.
> I found this to be very interesting from the article, didn't you?
> 
> "Some German higher-critical scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries had questioned Jesus' existence, pointing out that such key figures as Pontius Pilate and the chief priest Joseph Caiaphas in the Gospel accounts had never been confirmed as real. No rebuttal was possible until the mid-20th century.
> 
> Archaeologists in 1962 confirmed Pilate's existence when they discovered his name included in an inscription on an excavated stone. Likewise, the existence of Caiaphas was uncertain until 1990, when an ossuary (bone box) was discovered bearing his inscription. Archaeologists have also discovered what they believe to be Simon Peter's house and a cave where John the Baptist did his baptizing."


Welder, I'm curious....
To you, in your opinion, what does the fact that some people and some places that are talked about in the Bible actually did exist, prove?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Well it would'nt be a popular thing to do at the time you know the whole being crucified for you speaking out thing. Just saying.



Yeah, sure. A guy is walking around and in between performing miracles he comes back from the dead and flies up into the sky but NOBODY mentions it.
You wouldnt have to be a Chriatian to write down that while you were at the market today some guy that claimed to be the son of god was walking around 3 days afer after he died, or that you saw him fly into the sky.
Bible says more thaan 500 witnessed it.
Was it so common for people to see guys leave their feet and float up into the sky that they just walked away and thought there gies another one.
I dont believe in god people but i can assure you that if i see some guy, regardless of his religion scoot into the clouds after he has been dead...im gonna record that event to the best of my abilities.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Yes Luke.
> Along with many other eyewitnesses to the actual events.
> And we do not know if anything was written by the contemporary historians(during Jesus' lifetime) because nothing has been found...Unlike the many archaeological finds supporting many events and  people of the bible.
> I found this to be very interesting from the article, didn't you?
> 
> "Some German higher-critical scholars in the 18th and 19th centuries had questioned Jesus' existence, pointing out that such key figures as Pontius Pilate and the chief priest Joseph Caiaphas in the Gospel accounts had never been confirmed as real. No rebuttal was possible until the mid-20th century.
> 
> Archaeologists in 1962 confirmed Pilate's existence when they discovered his name included in an inscription on an excavated stone. Likewise, the existence of Caiaphas was uncertain until 1990, when an ossuary (bone box) was discovered bearing his inscription. Archaeologists have also discovered what they believe to be Simon Peter's house and a cave where John the Baptist did his baptizing."



Mix the real with the make believe and you have a guy like welder that believes it.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> The Pilate Stone



You have just proved Pilate was real.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Welder, I'm curious....
> To you, in your opinion, what does the fact that some people and some places that are talked about in the Bible actually did exist, prove?



I don't say it's proof.I say it's interesting.
As I've said many times, my proof is inside in the form of the Holy Spirit.
These evidences only support what I already know.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I don't say it's proof.I say it's interesting.
> As I've said many times, my proof is inside in the form of the Holy Spirit.
> These evidences only support what I already know.


Welder, research how trials were held 2000 years ago in Jerusalem.  Pay attention to who tried certain crimes and procedures.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> I don't say it's proof.I say it's interesting.
> As I've said many times, my proof is inside in the form of the Holy Spirit.
> These evidences only support what I already know.


And what do you do with the evidence (and facts) that DONT support what you already know?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, research how trials were held 2000 years ago in Jerusalem.  Pay attention to who tried certain crimes and procedures.



Sure.when I get time.
I trust you have a point to this?


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> And what do you do with the evidence (and facts) that DONT support what you already know?



Lay them out and we will look at them individually.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Lay them out and we will look at them individually.


They are laid out in here on a daily basis in nearly every thread. For you to look at them individually, you have to learn something about them.
To have a conversation about them it has to start there.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> They are laid out in here on a daily basis in nearly every thread. For you to look at them individually, you have to learn something about them.
> To have a conversation about them it has to start there.



Just one.
Humor me.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Just one.
> Humor me.



Take the time you wish to be humored and use it to learn about your own religions history. Then we can talk.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Take the time you wish to be humored and use it to learn about your own religions history. Then we can talk.



Let's compare, shall we?

Aristotle
Everyone believes he existed and wrote many writings also, right?
Is it a problem to believe that? No, I don't think so.

Only 49 original pieces of his work have been found.
But, over 5,300 pieces of the Bible have been found. 

Homer's Iliad, 643 pieces found.

The Bible has far more than any other writings found.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Let's compare, shall we?
> 
> Aristotle
> Everyone believes he existed and wrote many writings also, right?
> Is it a problem to believe that? No, I don't think so.
> 
> Only 49 original pieces of his work have been found.
> But, over 5,300 pieces of the Bible have been found.
> 
> Homer's Iliad, 643 pieces found.
> 
> The Bible has far more than any other writings found.


Nobody is arguing that a bible exists.
Nobody is arguing that the writings that were assembled to make up the Bible exists.
There were many other writings that were written in the same region during the same 1600 year span that were not included in the bible.
The bible wasnt a complete book from day one. Depending on your christianity some bibles contain more or less books.
The first books in the OT are the Jewish Torah.

What exactly is your point? That the bible is true because it exists? So is Sports Illustrated.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Nobody is arguing that a bible exists.
> Nobody is arguing that the writings that were assembled to make up the Bible exists.
> There were many other writings that were written in the same region during the same 1600 year span that were not included in the bible.
> The bible wasnt a complete book from day one. Depending on your christianity some bibles contain more or less books.
> The first books in the OT are the Jewish Torah.
> 
> What exactly is your point? That the bible is true because it exists? So is Sports Illustrated.



This is mainly stemming from your claim that the Bible was written by anonymous authors. But I just thought I'd show the comparison of things people widely accept and others they widely reject.


----------



## welderguy

Again from this article:

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Jesus-apparently-existed-outside-of-the-bible


"His Jewish opponents had the most to gain by denying Jesus' existence. But the evidence points in the opposite direction. "Several Jewish writings also tell of His flesh-and-blood existence. Both Gemaras of the Jewish Talmud refer to Jesus. Although these consist of only a few brief, bitter passages intended to discount Jesus' deity, these very early Jewish writings don't begin to hint that he was not a historical person."


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> This is mainly stemming from your claim that the Bible was written by anonymous authors. But I just thought I'd show the comparison of things people widely accept and others they widely reject.


I fail to see where you have shown that the bible wasnt written by anonymous authors.

You listed two known authors that authored known books.

Then you say that the bible which consists of at least 66 different "books" which were written over 1600 years by various authors are all able to be traced back to the exact people who authored them.

Go ahead.
Show us who wrote each book and back that up with an explanation of why that person is the author.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Again from this article:
> 
> http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/Thread-Jesus-apparently-existed-outside-of-the-bible
> 
> 
> "His Jewish opponents had the most to gain by denying Jesus' existence. But the evidence points in the opposite direction. "Several Jewish writings also tell of His flesh-and-blood existence. Both Gemaras of the Jewish Talmud refer to Jesus. Although these consist of only a few brief, bitter passages intended to discount Jesus' deity, these very early Jewish writings don't begin to hint that he was not a historical person."



100 years into the future there will be evidence that a guy with the nickname of welderguy existed on planet earth.
There will be the same evidence of the miracles that you performed as there is for Jesus.
None

The bible is writings of a culture that wrote tales to tell their story. 
Just like every culture out there.
The native Americans all have wonderful tales that describe their existence.

Like the bible, they all include some real places that involve some real people performing some real acts. Those three are intertwined with tall tales that were told to try to make sense of the unexplainable and were enhanced to make their culture seem more blessed than others by divine intervention.

Every single culture for ten thousand years has done the same thing.

The problem is that as humans have advanced and as ways of recording divine events became more available the amount of these events have decreased exponentially. 

You have the most advanced means possible to provide us with evidence of what you constantly claim and yet all you offer is the same means that was available 2000 years ago. 

Odds are a man named Yeshua (Joshua) lived about 2000 years ago. About the time he hit 30 years of age he became outspoken against the current Jewish religious leadership and caused trouble. He may have been right in what he was doing and saying and became the leader of a following that wanted to take the Jewish religion back to the core of its roots. Whatever he wanted to do, he accomplished getting the attention of the religious heirarchy and he made enough trouble that they decided he was a troublemaker and they arrested him and killed him in hopes of quenching the religious rebellion. 
20,30,40,50,60 70 even 100+ years later people wrote stories about him. (They wrote similar stories about many messiahs and saviours that they were sure were the people that would save Israel and those scrolls are just as real as the scrolls written about Jesus. ) These stories included the good and the bad.  They included real people and made up people. Real places and fake places. Real historic events and phony events. They  embellished the real with the supernatural. 
They did it. The Chinese did it. The Japanese did it. The Egyptians did it. And every culture race, creed, religion did it too.
Yeah welder, Jesus or more correctly Josh was a real guy. He probably got tacked to a couple logs for causing trouble and the authorities most likely dumped his body in the trash dump outside of town to keep his followers from gathering at his grave.
From unbelievable grief came embellished writings.
The jews wrote like that before him and after him too. There is volumes written about many Jewish messiahs.
You just believe this one


----------



## bullethead

Look at Abraham lincoln. Lots of historical writings about him. And a book called Abraham Lincoln Vampire Slayer.
2000 years ago had that been written and stuck in a clay pot in a cave......

Welder, you have to understand that the bible just did not poof into existence. It was the writings of men. It was assembled by men. The common people never had them to own. These writings were in posession of the religious leaders. They changed then and change now depending upon the denomination. There were thousands of scrolls. 60 something were chosen to make the book.


----------



## bullethead

Welder, for your own sake, please research the early Jewish religious history. Educate yourself about how they are always on the lookout for their messiah. Read about how many they thought were it over the thousands of years. Learn how the religion was always having sects branch off. Learn how, when and why. Learn the history of their culture.
Maybe then you can understand why things are as they are.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Odds are a man named Yeshua....
> 
> ....became the leader of a following that wanted to take the Jewish religion back to the core of its roots.....
> 
> .... the authorities most likely dumped his body in the trash dump outside of town to keep his followers from gathering at his grave.



I seriously believe that it's you who needs to educate yourself on some very important things. You seem to be ignoring the events which took place after Jesus' death. Three days afterward He was resurrected, and over 500 eyewitnesses saw Him and testified of it. most of these eyewitnesses were even still alive during Paul's ministry.
These eyewitness testimonies carry much weight to the validity of the events because there were so many, not just one or a few,(which would tend to raise eyebrows, but over 500. If you had 500 eyewitnesses in a court of law today testifying the same exact thing, how reliable do you think that testimony would be considered?
But here's the problem. Evil, and hatred of men for truth,(as we still see today), began to rear its ugly head. The Roman guards, which guarded the tomb of Jesus,were paid by the Sanhedron to lie, saying the disciples stole the body. We know this is a lie because any time a Roman soldier failed to guard his post, he was put to death. This did not happen, clearly showing something is foul.
Furthermore, a quest to stamp out all testimony of this resurrection began with such severity, and persecution that the witnesses were scattered and killed and attempted to be silenced. They were not silenced, but rather the word spread like a wildfire. One cannot deny that today it is still very much being believed and spread throughout the whole world. The more the attempts to stamp it out, the more it grows and spreads. One would have to be blind not to see the history in that.
The word of the Lord will never be stamped out. It will endure throughout all eternity.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I seriously believe that it's you who needs to educate yourself on some very important things. You seem to be ignoring the events which took place after Jesus' death. Three days afterward He was resurrected, and over 500 eyewitnesses saw Him and testified of it. most of these eyewitnesses were even still alive during Paul's ministry.
> These eyewitness testimonies carry much weight to the validity of the events because there were so many, not just one or a few,(which would tend to raise eyebrows, but over 500. If you had 500 eyewitnesses in a court of law today testifying the same exact thing, how reliable do you think that testimony would be considered?
> But here's the problem. Evil, and hatred of men for truth,(as we still see today), began to rear its ugly head. The Roman guards, which guarded the tomb of Jesus,were paid by the Sanhedron to lie, saying the disciples stole the body. We know this is a lie because any time a Roman soldier failed to guard his post, he was put to death. This did not happen, clearly showing something is foul.
> Furthermore, a quest to stamp out all testimony of this resurrection began with such severity, and persecution that the witnesses were scattered and killed and attempted to be silenced. They were not silenced, but rather the word spread like a wildfire. One cannot deny that today it is still very much being believed and spread throughout the whole world. The more the attempts to stamp it out, the more it grows and spreads. One would have to be blind not to see the history in that.
> The word of the Lord will never be stamped out. It will endure throughout all eternity.


Welder you are a nut.
Those witnesses testified to whom?
Where is their testimony recorded?
I am anxious to see you post the list of names and their testimonials.

You have done what you always do and completely ignore the information given to you in favor of retreating back to and clutching your biblical security blanket while you rock back and forth spouting the exact nonsense that has been obliterated a hundred threads ago.

You do not know your own religions history,  you refuse to research it and you deny it when someone else tells you about it when it is you that asks for it.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder you are a nut.
> Those witnesses testified to whom?
> Where is their testimony recorded?
> 
> You have done what you always do and completely ignore the information given to you in favor of retreating back to and clutching your biblical security blanket while you rock back and forth spouting the exact nonsense that has been obliterated a hundred threads ago.
> 
> You do not know your own religions history,  you refuse to research it and you deny it when someone else tells you about it when it is you that asks for it.



I don't think your petty insults are helping your case very much(it's certainly not phasing me),but if you feel it is necessary, by all means carry on. I don't hold it against you.

But, the issue at hand is, in my opinion, the evidence of testimony so widespread and so rapid in those days immediately following the historically correct account of Jesus' death. In spite of the Christian persecution,(well-recorded by many secular historians), the eyewitness testimony went into all parts of the known world to all the differing and varying cultures and languages, and is STILL doing so today. Its account has spread in a way that has never been paralleled by any other in history. Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I don't think your petty insults are helping your case very much(it's certainly not phasing me),but if you feel it is necessary, by all means carry on. I don't hold it against you.
> 
> But, the issue at hand is, in my opinion, the evidence of testimony so widespread and so rapid in those days immediately following the historically correct account of Jesus' death. In spite of the Christian persecution,(well-recorded by many secular historians), the eyewitness testimony went into all parts of the known world to all the differing and varying cultures and languages, and is STILL doing so today. Its account has spread in a way that has never been paralleled by any other in history. Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has.


Santa Claus


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I don't think your petty insults are helping your case very much(it's certainly not phasing me),but if you feel it is necessary, by all means carry on. I don't hold it against you.
> 
> But, the issue at hand is, in my opinion, the evidence of testimony so widespread and so rapid in those days immediately following the historically correct account of Jesus' death. In spite of the Christian persecution,(well-recorded by many secular historians), the eyewitness testimony went into all parts of the known world to all the differing and varying cultures and languages, and is STILL doing so today. Its account has spread in a way that has never been paralleled by any other in history. Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has.


Welder EVERY religion has been persecuted.
Every religion writes stories about how their god (s) got them through it.
The only thing missing in their stories and especially your tall tales is the truth.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Santa Claus



Most adults do not believe in santa claus, and I dare say would not die for the testimony of his cause.
very miniscule compared to the cause of Christianity.

try again


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I don't think your petty insults are helping your case very much(it's certainly not phasing me),but if you feel it is necessary, by all means carry on. I don't hold it against you.
> 
> But, the issue at hand is, in my opinion, the evidence of testimony so widespread and so rapid in those days immediately following the historically correct account of Jesus' death. In spite of the Christian persecution,(well-recorded by many secular historians), the eyewitness testimony went into all parts of the known world to all the differing and varying cultures and languages, and is STILL doing so today. Its account has spread in a way that has never been paralleled by any other in history. Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has.



And yet again your lack of knowledge regarding your own religions history shows.
Christianity was on the verge of death for about 300 years. It didn't spread from any witnesses. It faded.
How can try to to teach others when you do not know anything yourself?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder EVERY religion has been persecuted.
> Every religion writes stories about how their god (s) got them through it.
> The only thing missing in their stories and especially your tall tales is the truth.



I agree with your first and second statements.
But, I think you need to look at the supporting evidence with a stronger microscope and also a more powerful telescope.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> And yet again your lack of knowledge regarding your own religions history shows.
> Christianity was on the verge of death for about 300 years. It didn't spread from any witnesses. It faded.
> How can try to to teach others when you do not know anything yourself?



Says you


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Most adults do not believe in santa claus, and I dare say would not die for the testimony of his cause.
> very miniscule compared to the cause of Christianity.
> 
> try again


This is a direct quote by YOU.
" Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has."

I used your rules. I used the parameters that you set.

And I crushed your claim.

Now, as usual, you ignore it and move on to another set of rules that suit you and will continue to do so until you finally whittle it down to a shred of unprovable claims which is all you ever have.

My fiction beat your fiction.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Says you


Says history.
Try it, you might learn something


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Says history.
> Try it, you might learn something



OK I challenge you to go out, any where you like, and get signatures of as many people you can in a weeks time, of those that say they believe in santa claus. I will do the same only get the ones that say they believe in Jesus.
Then we'll see who crushes who.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> OK I challenge you to go out, any where you like, and get signatures of as many people you can in a weeks time, of those that say they believe in santa claus. I will do the same only get the ones that say they believe in Jesus.
> Then we'll see who crushes who.



" Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has."

Are you changing the rules again to suit yourself JUST like I said you would?

Welder, you claimed something NEVER had as powerful influence on the entire world. YOU mentioned fiction, fallacy and truth as being included.
YOU asked ME to give you just ONE example.
Santa wins hands down.

I dont care if you deny it, that is your style, but it doesn't change the fact.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> " Mere fiction or fallacy,or even truth for that matter,in any form has never had such a powerful influence on the entire world as the testimony of Christianity has. I challenge you to give me one example of something that has."
> 
> Are you changing the rules again to suit yourself JUST like I said you would?
> 
> Welder, you claimed something NEVER had as powerful influence on the entire world. YOU mentioned fiction, fallacy and truth as being included.
> Santa wins hands down.



OH BROTHER! 

You're nitpicking so you don't have to face the reality of the point I am making(and you know exactly what that point is).

I already made the point of  the "powerful influence" of Christianity being the surviving and even flourishing amidst severe persecution, and also the rapid widespread  travel of the gospel.
This is my definition of "powerful influence". Apparently your interptretation of "powerful influence" is much different than mine, hence the santa reference.

gotta go get on the backhoe.be back later this evening


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> OK I challenge you to go out, any where you like, and get signatures of as many people you can in a weeks time, of those that say they believe in santa claus. I will do the same only get the ones that say they believe in Jesus.
> Then we'll see who crushes who.


So let me get this straight, you want me to go out and get signatures of BELIEVERS in each?
Now you well know that neither one of us can go worldwide and do an accurate survey so we will each go to the places that will tip the numbers in our favor. You go to every christian church for your signatures and ill go to every elementary school and we can stack the odds for each of us.

Now if you want to just ask people who have heard of either of those two Bozos...id say Santa and Joshua are on equal footing here in the USA, and Santa will win the race worldwide.

But, maybe you will want to change the rules to a survey of Christians in your own home,  or a survey of Ministers who believe in Jesus but do not still believe in Santa if you think that will help your claims at all....


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> OH BROTHER!
> 
> You're nitpicking so you don't have to face the reality of the point I am making(and you know exactly what that point is).
> 
> I already made the point of  the "powerful influence" of Christianity being the surviving and even flourishing amidst severe persecution, and also the rapid widespread  travel of the gospel.
> This is my definition of "powerful influence". Apparently your interptretation of "powerful influence" is much different than mine, hence the santa reference.
> 
> gotta go get on the backhoe.be back later this evening


Welder being welder.
There are the definitions that everyone else uses, and then there is the dictionary that exists only in welders brain, run by the eternal librarian the holy spirit, and uses definitions and ground rules that pertain to welder only.
Oh and a good pair of dark glasses keeps you from seeing reality.

Happy digging


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> I seriously believe that it's you who needs to educate yourself on some very important things. You seem to be ignoring the events which took place after Jesus' death. Three days afterward He was resurrected, and over 500 eyewitnesses saw Him and testified of it. most of these eyewitnesses were even still alive during Paul's ministry.
> These eyewitness testimonies carry much weight to the validity of the events because there were so many, not just one or a few,(which would tend to raise eyebrows, but over 500. If you had 500 eyewitnesses in a court of law today testifying the same exact thing, how reliable do you think that testimony would be considered?
> But here's the problem. Evil, and hatred of men for truth,(as we still see today), began to rear its ugly head. The Roman guards, which guarded the tomb of Jesus,were paid by the Sanhedron to lie, saying the disciples stole the body. We know this is a lie because any time a Roman soldier failed to guard his post, he was put to death. This did not happen, clearly showing something is foul.
> Furthermore, a quest to stamp out all testimony of this resurrection began with such severity, and persecution that the witnesses were scattered and killed and attempted to be silenced. They were not silenced, but rather the word spread like a wildfire. One cannot deny that today it is still very much being believed and spread throughout the whole world. The more the attempts to stamp it out, the more it grows and spreads. One would have to be blind not to see the history in that.
> The word of the Lord will never be stamped out. It will endure throughout all eternity.


Now that you have gone to a Christian site and surprise surprise found a theory that supports your beliefs, the next step in your research is to go check THIS theory out at other sources and find out if it is supported and widely accepted.
Wouldn't that be an important step if you are going to use it as your argument?


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Now that you have gone to a Christian site and surprise surprise found a theory that supports your beliefs, the next step in your research is to go check THIS theory out at other sources and find out if it is supported and widely accepted.
> Wouldn't that be an important step if you are going to use it as your argument?



That didn't come from a Christian website.
It came from my Christian brain.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So let me get this straight, you want me to go out and get signatures of BELIEVERS in each?
> Now you well know that neither one of us can go worldwide and do an accurate survey so we will each go to the places that will tip the numbers in our favor. You go to every christian church for your signatures and ill go to every elementary school and we can stack the odds for each of us.
> 
> Now if you want to just ask people who have heard of either of those two Bozos...id say Santa and Joshua are on equal footing here in the USA, and Santa will win the race worldwide.
> 
> But, maybe you will want to change the rules to a survey of Christians in your own home,  or a survey of Ministers who believe in Jesus but do not still believe in Santa if you think that will help your claims at all....



You get signatures of as many as you can find wherever you can find them that BELIEVE in santa.
I will get signatures of those that BELIEVE  in Jesus.

It won't even be a contest.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You get signatures of as many as you can find wherever you can find them that BELIEVE in santa.
> I will get signatures of those that BELIEVE  in Jesus.
> 
> It won't even be a contest.



Welder, you are missing my point, you are like the democrats... you want to poll a limited select group of people that favor your side, in an area that is chock full of those people and have those results represent the world wide population.
You are stacking the deck in your favor.

Take the survey in Japan or China, or Russia, or Iran and the results will not favor you.

But this is your standard method of operation. You make a specific claim, your claim gets obliterated by the very rules that YOU set,  then you change the parameters however many times until you get the results you want.

You need a to take a step back and re-evaluate your methods and knowledge.
It would save so much bandwith.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, you are missing my point, you are like the democrats... you want to poll a limited select group of people that favor your side, in an area that is chock full of those people and have those results represent the world wide population.
> You are stacking the deck in your favor.
> 
> Take the survey in Japan or China, or Russia, or Iran and the results will not favor you.
> 
> But this is your standard method of operation. You make a specific claim, your claim gets obliterated by the very rules that YOU set,  then you change the parameters however many times until you get the results you want.
> 
> You need a to take a step back and re-evaluate your methods and knowledge.
> It would save so much bandwith.



Forget the poll.
Here's what I'm saying. There is nothing in the history of the world that has impacted the human race as dramatically as Christianity, specifically Jesus Christ. 
He affects believers and nonbelievers.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Forget the poll.
> Here's what I'm saying. There is nothing in the history of the world that has impacted the human race as dramatically as Christianity, specifically Jesus Christ.
> He affects believers and nonbelievers.


I am going to have to ask you to back that up with facts that back up your claim.
It would seem that you have done your homework on this and I would like you to share that with us.
Right now the worlds population is about 7.3 billion.
The population of Christians is approx 2.1 billion.

If you have three people together,  two of them do not believe in Jesus.
Now putting aside that the overwhelming population does not worship jesus, I am curious to learn from you just how Jesus Christ has impacted the world more than anything else.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Forget the poll.
> Here's what I'm saying. There is nothing in the history of the world that has impacted the human race as dramatically as Christianity, specifically Jesus Christ.
> He affects believers and nonbelievers.


Like I am now wondering if Jesus has more of an effect than vaccinations have on believers and non believers.  Or antibiotics. Or modern medicine. Or Henry Ford, how many people drive cars nowadays? Or the Wright Brothers..how many people have flown in the last 100years?

Now is the time you tweak the details to suit you.....


----------



## bullethead

Welder, how about a guy named Gavrilo Princip?

I will let you research him so you have to read about him.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I am going to have to ask you to back that up with facts that back up your claim.
> It would seem that you have done your homework on this and I would like you to share that with us.
> Right now the worlds population is about 7.3 billion.
> The population of Christians is approx 2.1 billion.
> 
> If you have three people together,  two of them do not believe in Jesus.
> Now putting aside that the overwhelming population does not worship jesus, I am curious to learn from you just how Jesus Christ has impacted the world more than anything else.



You don't have to be a Christian to be affected by Christianity. That's my point. And I'm not saying all people are necessarily affected in a good way, relatively speaking.
Jesus turned the world upside down. Some love Him, some despise Him. Many claim to be indifferent toward Him, but, I'm not sure I buy that. I think , really, only those who have not yet heard of Him can be indifferent toward Him.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> You don't have to be a Christian to be affected by Christianity. That's my point. And I'm not saying all people are necessarily affected in a good way, relatively speaking.
> Jesus turned the world upside down. Some love Him, some despise Him. Many claim to be indifferent toward Him, but, I'm not sure I buy that. I think , really, only those who have not yet heard of Him can be indifferent toward Him.


Poor point.
Jesus didnt do any of that. Jesus was dead within three years of being known. Paul had way more effect than Jesus ever did.

Mohammad was alive much longer, was just as divine and was way more secular. Id say he was easily more influential just based off your new criteria.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, how about a guy named Gavrilo Princip?
> 
> I will let you research him so you have to read about him.



He was an assassin. What else do you want to know about him?


----------



## bullethead

Welder, condense the requirements till you are vindicated.

Make it, name one other person who was jewish whose lived till 33, and was alive about 1984 years ago and whos name was Jesus  and who had Saul from Tarsus write about him and who is now worshipped by over 2 Billion people.

Oh geeze welder, you got us all there buddy. Bravo, BRAVO!


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> He was an assassin. What else do you want to know about him?



How many people were affected by his actions?


----------



## bullethead

Welder, fire?
Has fire made a greater impact on humans?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Poor point.
> Jesus didnt do any of that. Jesus was dead within three years of being known. Paul had way more effect than Jesus ever did.
> 
> Mohammad was alive much longer, was just as divine and was way more secular. Id say he was easily more influential just based off your new criteria.



Jesus did more in three years than any man ever did.
Paul's life was turned upside down by Jesus. After his conversion on the road to Demascus, Paul was sold out for Jesus. He was a different man altogether.
Mohammad ,though very influential, has not turned the world upside down.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Jesus did more in three years than any man ever did.
> Paul's life was turned upside down by Jesus. After his conversion on the road to Demascus, Paul was sold out for Jesus. He was a different man altogether.
> Mohammad ,though very influential, has not turned the world upside down.


So the south pole is actually the north pole?
I dont know what you mean by turn the world upside down.

Welder, you have ignored most of my posts and you have yet to provide a single fact that supports your claim let alone is the proof that is required to make your claim true.

When are you ever going to actually step up and give us something tangible?

Lets go here.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> How many people were affected by his actions?



Apparently not as many as you would like to think. I never even heard of him until you brought him up.


----------



## bullethead

http://www.amaana.org/ismailim.html

Better read that from start to finish and if you have actual points to refute it please do.

Replying  "Jesus was the Ayatolla of Rockenrolla" is gonna be a little to vague so use some details backed by facts, please?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, fire?
> Has fire made a greater impact on humans?



I'm afraid not. nice try though.

Before the sun was created, who was the source of light?

BINGO. You guessed it. Jesus


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So the south pole is actually the north pole?
> I dont know what you mean by turn the world upside down.
> 
> Welder, you have ignored most of my posts and you have yet to provide a single fact that supports your claim let alone is the proof that is required to make your claim true.
> 
> When are you ever going to actually step up and give us something tangible?
> 
> Lets go here.



I'm not intentionally ignoring your posts. I'm a slow typist, and an even slower thinker. be patient.
Besides, you post three or four posts before I can even answer one.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Apparently not as many as you would like to think. I never even heard of him until you brought him up.



Now wait now wait now wait....
Is it Who Heard of him?
Or
How many people were affected?

His actions started WWI.  Including the hundreds of millions that died, the billions that were affected and the hundreds of millions that died and billions that were affected in WWII from his actions and the fact that even though you never heard of him that you are still affected by the ripple effects of his actions to this day is evidence of his impact.
I cannot help that you never heard of him. All that means is that you never heard of him. His actions remain. His affect on the world remains.

Suggestion, take the time to study history.
You seem to have heard of very little yet argue like you know it all.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I'm not intentionally ignoring your posts. I'm a slow typist, and an even slower thinker. be patient.
> Besides, you post three or four posts before I can even answer one.



In the last few years i have posted hundreds of posts and am still waiting for you to answer one correctly and especially one that you can back up your answer with factual evidence.

How about starting now?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I'm afraid not. nice try though.
> 
> Before the sun was created, who was the source of light?
> 
> BINGO. You guessed it. Jesus





Have a great night.
Ill respond when you can back up your nonsensical claims.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> http://www.amaana.org/ismailim.html
> 
> Better read that from start to finish and if you have actual points to refute it please do.
> 
> Replying  "Jesus was the " is gonna be a little to vague so use some details backed by facts, please?



Ayatolla of Rockenrolla 
That one made me belly laugh. thanks

About the link:
I couldn't help but notice this.(which says it all)

"There were, however, in Mecca, a small number of Jews and Christians; it was from them no doubt that Muhammad first learned of a single, omnipotent God who ruled the entire universe."

See, even Mohammad admits to being influenced by Christian teachings.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Now wait now wait now wait....
> Is it Who Heard of him?
> Or
> How many people were affected?
> 
> His actions started WWI.  Including the hundreds of millions that died, the billions that were affected and the hundreds of millions that died and billions that were affected in WWII from his actions and the fact that even though you never heard of him that you are still affected by the ripple effects of his actions to this day is evidence of his impact.
> I cannot help that you never heard of him. All that means is that you never heard of him. His actions remain. His affect on the world remains.
> 
> Suggestion, take the time to study history.
> You seem to have heard of very little yet argue like you know it all.



You have a very valid point. I totally agree that you don't have to have knowledge of something to have had effects from it.
I said that without realizing what I was saying.excuse me.


----------



## welderguy

Bullet,
If you and I both agree the bible was written over a span of 1600 years, how do you explain the 300+ accurate prophecies in the Old Testament which foretell of Jesus and His life?
You've already agreed that Jesus was truly a historical figure. I also pointed out to you some of the secular historians' accounts of Jesus' life.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Bullet,
> If you and I both agree the bible was written over a span of 1600 years, how do you explain the 300+ accurate prophecies in the Old Testament which foretell of Jesus and His life?
> You've already agreed that Jesus was truly a historical figure. I also pointed out to you some of the secular historians' accounts of Jesus' life.


The prophesies were talking abiut a coming messiah.  The Jews to this very day wull tell you Jesus wasnt it because he did not meet the criteria. There were more other men in their history that met more criteria than Jesus but still didn't meet enough.
Not one of those Prophecies mentions Jesus specifically by name. They are so vague that we could make you fit some of them.

You have left about 50 points unaddressed. Work on them before you make your pile of broken claims even higher.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> The prophesies were talking abiut a coming messiah.  The Jews to this very day wull tell you Jesus wasnt it because he did not meet the criteria. There were more other men in their history that met more criteria than Jesus but still didn't meet enough.
> Not one of those Prophecies mentions Jesus specifically by name. They are so vague that we could make you fit some of them.
> 
> You have left about 50 points unaddressed. Work on them before you make your pile of broken claims even higher.



As have you my brother. You think every eyewitness is a liar or is having some sort of neurologic episode. Not the case. I have personally witnessed two people in prayer out loud turn to speaking in tongues the same terminology at the same time verbatim, that had never spoken in tongues before. It is proof of the Holy Spirit and not some kind of mind meld that you brush it off to be.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> As have you my brother. You think every eyewitness is a liar or is having some sort of neurologic episode. Not the case. I have personally witnessed two people in prayer out loud turn to speaking in tongues the same terminology at the same time verbatim, that had never spoken in tongues before. It is proof of the Holy Spirit and not some kind of mind meld that you brush it off to be.



So you clearly understand and can translate when people speak in tongues?
You know it is the holy spirit and nothing else?.

Can you point me to where speaking in tongues is unique to the holy spirit and doesn't happen anywhere else or in any other religion?

Listen, you uber religious people arw some of the best actors and ir some of the most gullible people that I've encountered.
I am not saying that you are not "good" people or that I dislike you. I am saying that in every other aspect of life you are probably very cautious and make informed decisioms. Regarding religious practices and anything that you cannot immediately explain you jump to the god, jesus or the holy spirit...unless of course when those guys fail you, then its the devil. The 4th amigo that none of the first three can handle, despite being all powerful and all....


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> The prophesies were talking abiut a coming messiah.  The Jews to this very day wull tell you Jesus wasnt it because he did not meet the criteria. There were more other men in their history that met more criteria than Jesus but still didn't meet enough.
> Not one of those Prophecies mentions Jesus specifically by name. They are so vague that we could make you fit some of them.
> 
> You have left about 50 points unaddressed. Work on them before you make your pile of broken claims even higher.



Do any of them fit the criteria(besides Jesus) of having been born of a virgin?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> As have you my brother. You think every eyewitness is a liar or is having some sort of neurologic episode. Not the case. I have personally witnessed two people in prayer out loud turn to speaking in tongues the same terminology at the same time verbatim, that had never spoken in tongues before. It is proof of the Holy Spirit and not some kind of mind meld that you brush it off to be.



Glossolalia is not unique to Christians, the  religious or anyone specfic.
It happens world wide outside of Christianity.

Wait...let me guess....Christiams that babble are for real...the OTHERS are faking, nuts, possessed, etc..


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> So you clearly understand and can translate when people speak in tongues?
> You know it is the holy spirit and nothing else?.
> 
> Can you point me to where speaking in tongues is unique to the holy spirit and doesn't happen anywhere else or in any other religion?
> 
> Listen, you uber religious people arw some of the best actors and ir some of the most gullible people that I've encountered.
> I am not saying that you are not "good" people or that I dislike you. I am saying that in every other aspect of life you are probably very cautious and make informed decisioms. Regarding religious practices and anything that you cannot immediately explain you jump to the god, jesus or the holy spirit...unless of course when those guys fail you, then its the devil. The 4th amigo that none of the first three can handle, despite being all powerful and all....



I was following you until the whole devil thing? Maybe its just Gods plan. Do you think you can figure it out. You are wrong. Don't try because its what you want to understand not Gods pan. BTW you feel like someone has failed you now we are getting somewhere.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do any of them fit the criteria(besides Jesus) of having been born of a virgin?



Wow
Many other  people in other religions have popped out of virgins too, but..

WITHOUT USING THE BIBLE,  show us how you know Mary was a virgin.

You just do not see the juvenile in your style of argument.

It is like name one other superhero that is half man half fish.?
You argue in fantasy


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I was following you until the whole devil thing? Maybe its just Gods plan. Do you think you can figure it out. You are wrong. Don't try because its what you want to understand not Gods pan. BTW you feel like someone has failed you now we are getting somewhere.


Oh so there is no free will?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I was following you until the whole devil thing? Maybe its just Gods plan. Do you think you can figure it out. You are wrong. Don't try because its what you want to understand not Gods pan. BTW you feel like someone has failed you now we are getting somewhere.


The devil is a believers excuse for all the bad things.
You are telling me you believe in an all powerful god that loves you,  and then you tell me that same god allows a devil to exist. God either cant or wont do anything about the devil. Not much of a god at all.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Oh so there is no free will?



You absolutely know there is free will. That is why you have taken the position you have. It was given from the beginning when Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We didn't know you were naked and ashamed but now we do.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Wow
> Many other  people in other religions have popped out of virgins too, but..
> 
> WITHOUT USING THE BIBLE,  show us how you know Mary was a virgin.
> 
> You just do not see the juvenile in your style of argument.
> 
> It is like name one other superhero that is half man half fish.?
> You argue in fantasy



Were they born of a virgin in Bethlehem?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> You absolutely know there is free will. That is why you have taken the position you have. It was given from the beginning when Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. We didn't know you were naked and ashamed but now we do.


But in the next breath you say god has a plan. 

Which is it richie?

Doesn't your god know the outcome of everything before it happens?
Does your god change his mind from his plan?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Were they born of a virgin in Bethlehem?



Welder we are done. 
All you do is switch up your criteria and ignore the answers you ask for.

You have left post after post unanswered because even you with your limited style you dont even have the rebuttle for those.

Here is the bottom line. The beginning of the Old Testament is the Torah. Jesus did not fulfill the required prophesy.  Period. If he did the Jews would be worshiping him now.

I will say it one last time.
Do your homework.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> But in the next breath you say god has a plan.
> 
> Which is it richie?
> 
> Doesn't your god know the outcome of everything before it happens?
> Does your god change his mind from his plan?



I'm saying because you don't find it impressive or would do something different you want to say he dosent  exist. I can bring you countless witness but you say they are all liars including myself. I would say you are in a state of denial. I don't try to figure things out I accept the plan. I have complete trust. He does know the outcome but who are you that he must explain it to?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I'm saying because you don't find it impressive or would do something different you want to say he dosent  exist. I can bring you countless witness but you say they are all liars including myself. I would say you are in a state of denial. I don't try to figure things out I accept the plan. I have complete trust. He does know the outcome but who are you that he must explain it to?


Richie you can't have it both ways.
If your god has a plan then I am doing exactly as I am supposed to do. Who do you think you are to try to alter your gods plan?
If I have free will then your god cannot know my thoughts or actions beforehand. 

You are getting like welder, cherry picking your answers and avoiding the questions that cause you to questions your beliefs.

If you use speaking in tongues as proof that your holy spirit exists, then when believers in other religions do it it is also proof that their god exists, and when non believers do it it proves no god exists, right?

And explain how your gods plan and free will exist together.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> So you clearly understand and can translate when people speak in tongues?
> You know it is the holy spirit and nothing else?.
> 
> Can you point me to where speaking in tongues is unique to the holy spirit and doesn't happen anywhere else or in any other religion?
> 
> Listen, you uber religious people arw some of the best actors and ir some of the most gullible people that I've encountered.
> I am not saying that you are not "good" people or that I dislike you. I am saying that in every other aspect of life you are probably very cautious and make informed decisioms. Regarding religious practices and anything that you cannot immediately explain you jump to the god, jesus or the holy spirit...unless of course when those guys fail you, then its the devil. The 4th amigo that none of the first three can handle, despite being all powerful and all....



Who said that? You hear what you want but you don't listen. Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Who said that? You hear what you want but you don't listen. Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth.



Then how the heck can you sit there and tell me that you witnessed anything to do with a holy spirit?
A few people are holding hands singing kumboya  and start doing their best Mel Tillis impersonations and you immediately without question are convinced the holy spirit is responsible. 

Now you have information that shows you lots of people besides christains speak in tongues and I am supposed to stop informing you of these things because you dont want to hear the truth because it makes your evidence, evidence of nothing.

See rich, i hear things loud and clear. I question the things that do not make sense and I ask the person telling me these things to explain them and back it up with facts that make them true. Is it unreasonable for me to expect that from you?
If you cannot do that, please tell me now


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie you can't have it both ways.
> If your god has a plan then I am doing exactly as I am supposed to do. Who do you think you are to try to alter your gods plan?
> If I have free will then your god cannot know my thoughts or actions beforehand.
> 
> You are getting like welder, cherry picking your answers and avoiding the questions that cause you to questions your beliefs.
> 
> If you use speaking in tongues as proof that your holy spirit exists, then when believers in other religions do it it is also proof that their god exists, and when non believers do it it proves no god exists, right?
> 
> And explain how your gods plan and free will exist together.



WROG! He knows everything about you he created you. Plus I never said I understood tongues I said I witnessed it being spoken. Get the facts correct.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> WROG! He knows everything about you he created you. Plus I never said I understood tongues I said I witnessed it being spoken. Get the facts correct.


I am going to ask you show me evidence that your god created me.

And ok, you do not understand tongues. I was thinking you might have by the way you knew what they were doing was responsible from the holy spirit. 
How do you know it was because of the holy spirit? 
With very little research you will find examples of other people that believe in others gods speaking in tongues and you will also find that non believers have spoken in tongues.  Why is this?

Plus please dont skip the hard questions, address them all.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I am going to ask you show me evidence that your god created me.
> 
> And ok, you do not understand tongues. I was thinking you might have by the way you knew what they were doing was responsible from the holy spirit.
> How do you know it was because of the holy spirit?
> With very little research you will find examples of other people that believe in others gods speaking in tongues and you will also find that non believers have spoken in tongues.  Why is this?
> 
> Plus please dont skip the hard questions, address them all.



We were in prayer after my uncle wraped his car around an oak tree. We were all circled around in prayer when my aunt and uncle began speaking in tongues. I am just telling you what I witnessed not that I understand what was being said. I was only 10 at the time.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> We were in prayer after my uncle wraped his car around an oak tree. We were all circled around in prayer when my aunt and uncle began speaking in tongues. I am just telling you what I witnessed not that I understand what was being said. I was only 10 at the time.


Richie, I get it.  You witnessed them speaking  in tongues. 
Why did they do that? What caused them to do that?

I know me asking you to show me that your god created me was one of those hard questions that always seem to get ignored.
Can you not answer that one?

I mean if it is true it should not be hard for you to just give me evidence of it. I cannot find any evidence outside of the bible that says your god created me. Can you show me?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie, I get it.  You witnessed them speaking  in tongues.
> Why did they do that? What caused them to do that?



They were in deep prayer with God. They had just received the news that their brother was dead. I don't know exactly but I know it was of God. How else could two different people speak in tongues saying the same thing at the same time verbatim.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> They were in deep prayer with God. They had just received the news that their brother was dead. I don't know exactly but I know it was of God. How else could two different people speak in tongues saying the same thing at the same time verbatim.


Ok now we are getting some where.

If you don't know exactly how can you know it was from your god?
I can see why you would certainly think that at the time under the circumstances.

If that is the proof you use is the same proof equal to believe that poeple in other religions who have experienced the same or similar circumstances are speaking in tongues because of their god too?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie, I get it.  You witnessed them speaking  in tongues.
> Why did they do that? What caused them to do that?
> 
> I know me asking you to show me that your god created me was one of those hard questions that always seem to get ignored.
> Can you not answer that one?
> 
> I mean if it is true it should not be hard for you to just give me evidence of it. I cannot find any evidence outside of the bible that says your god created me. Can you show me?



Bullet I also don't see how you can pick up a fish and look at its gills and how it breathes underwater and believe that is caused by a big bang? Or how birds fly or the tides roll?  Or how the sun rises and sets. To think that just evolved on its own. You would have a better chance of getting struck by lightning while being bit by a shark just after winning the lottery.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I also don't see how you can pick up a fish and look at its gills and how it breathes underwater and believe that is caused by a big bang? Or how birds fly or the tides roll?  Or how the sun rises and sets. To think that just evolved on its own. You would have a better chance of getting struck by lightning while being bit by a shark just after winning the lottery.


That is why you should reaearch these things, learn about it and educate yourself.
To simply deny yourself that kmowledge and insert god did it because you dont understand it is a disservice to yourself.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> That is why you should reaearch these things, learn about it and educate yourself.
> To simply deny yourself that kmowledge and insert god did it because you dont understand it is a disservice to yourself.



Why do you think I am not educated? I feel his presence. I witness his miracles. Why would I Deny my maker? I don't understand your view. I love God and you will not change that. But I am glad we have met I look forward to the challenge of debating with you.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Why do you think I am not educated? I feel his presence. I witness his miracles. Why would I Deny my maker? I don't understand your view. I love God and you will not change that. But I am glad we have met I look forward to the challenge of debating with you.


We all need education. We need to take the time to learn about the things we do not understaand.
If you do not know how a fish's gills work or how how they evolved you are uneducated about those things and should research it.
If you do not know how the tides roll, birds fly or how the sun rises and sets ( it doesn't) you should educate yourself in those areas.

You, like welder, avoid any questions that ask you to answer honesty. I think it is out of fear that what you want to say goes against your beliefs so therefore you wont answer it.

But for the 3rd time,
 you don't know exactly how can you know it (speaking in tongues)was from your god?
I can see why you would certainly think that at the time under the circumstances.

If that is the proof you use is the same proof equal to believe that people in other religions who have experienced the same or similar circumstances are speaking in tongues because of their god too?


----------



## welderguy

One is real. All others are counterfeit.

How do I know? 
The word says so.

How do I know the word is true?
Faith inside initially, then verification by experience.

As I've been in the process of showing(taking a while to develop), the 300+ precisely fulfilled prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament over a 1600 year period are undeniable evidence of Divine inspiration of those scriptures. Not to mention,they are also supported by many archaelogical finds.

There are event details, time statements, multiple eyewitness accounts, and archaelogical finds all to narrow down any possibility of any other Messiah, other than Jesus Christ.

We can disect it if you like and look at every one if necessary. Bullet says he's done and I don't blame him. But I'm just beginning myself.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> One is real. All others are counterfeit.
> 
> How do I know?
> The word says so.
> 
> How do I know the word is true?
> Faith inside initially, then verification by experience.
> 
> As I've been in the process of showing(taking a while to develop), the 300+ precisely fulfilled prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament over a 1600 year period are undeniable evidence of Divine inspiration of those scriptures. Not to mention,they are also supported by many archaelogical finds.
> 
> There are event details, time statements, multiple eyewitness accounts, and archaelogical finds all to narrow down any possibility of any other Messiah, other than Jesus Christ.
> 
> We can disect it if you like and look at every one if necessary. Bullet says he's done and I don't blame him. But I'm just beginning myself.


Break them down. Dissect them.
I can't look away from yet another trainwreck.


----------



## 660griz

red neck richie said:


> How else could two different people speak in tongues saying the same thing at the same time verbatim.



Practice.


----------



## bullethead

660griz said:


> Practice.


The witness testimony is suspect also. 
Witness was 10, didnt understand whatever tongues was being spoken,  yet in the heat of  the moment  (which had to be strange and overwhelming for a10 year old) he could not only process that jibberish was being said but also discern that they were in unison saying the same thing at the same time exactly the same way.
That is the real story there.


----------



## ambush80

This makes me sad and embarrassed for this woman.


----------



## ambush80

Every one of these I see just makes me feel embarrassed for these people.


----------



## ambush80

Then there's this guy who who calls himself a Christian but clearly doesn't receive the gift of understanding from the Holy Spirit.  HE may actually be the agent of Satan.


----------



## ambush80

Jump to 2:08 for the good part.



Come on.......

Does that REALLY make anyone here feel like God is real?

PROPHESY TIME!!!!


----------



## bullethead

Prophesy Time....
Lolol

Cant wait to re-discuss the prophesy discussion that took place years ago.

Welder, I am sure, has come up with some brand new never before debunked...i mean discussed fulfilled prophesies and this time he says with " event details, time statements, multiple eyewitness accounts, and archaelogical finds all to narrow down any possibility of any other Messiah, other than Jesus Christ.".
This must be groundbreaking stuff that gets noticed worldwide.

Or the work of a Christian website that adds dots when they run out of them.


----------



## bullethead

Ambush, even better than those vids is to make sure the close captioned is on and watch it try to translate.

Good stuff.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> This makes me sad and embarrassed for this woman.


Cant stop watching...the closed caption trying to translate is worth the nonsense.
"Shot the bok car draw...."
Rotfl


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Ambush, even better than those vids is to make sure the close captioned is on and watch it try to translate.
> 
> Good stuff.



Sunlight is the best disinfectant.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Cant stop watching...the closed caption trying to translate is worth the nonsense.
> "Shot the bok car draw...."
> Rotfl



It's funny at first then terribly, terribly sad when you realize that's a real person somewhere that believes it's true.

People are easily manipulated.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> It's funny at first then terribly, terribly sad when you realize that's a real person somewhere that believes it's true.
> 
> People are easily manipulated.


That sums it up.
I dont think less of them for falling for it I just wish dicsussions like this causes them to realize it.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> Sunlight is the best disinfectant.



And the translations change somewhat each time.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> That sums it up.
> I dont think less of them for falling for it I just wish discussions like this causes them to realize it.



In this day and age if you're falling for that nonsense then you're a blight.   I don't anticipate anymore discussion.  How can anyone defend those videos?  Sorry for ruining your conversation.  You seemed like you were enjoying yourself.

The OP is "What Is True?"  Those videos show exactly what is NOT true.  We can advance on the question from there.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> In this day and age if you're falling for that nonsense then you're a blight.   I don't anticipate anymore discussion.  How can anyone defend those videos?  Sorry for ruining your conversation.  You seemed like you were enjoying yourself.
> 
> The OP is "What Is True?"  Those videos show exactly what is NOT true.  We can advance on the question from there.


Im glad you stepped in.
I felt like the preists in the exorcist and had to take a break.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Im glad you stepped in.
> I felt like the priests in the exorcist and had to take a break.



I've been thinking about your discussion for a couple of days now.  When most of us look at those videos of people speaking in tongues, it's easy for us to to say "Well, that's obviously made up".  We can watch people circle around the Black Stone in Mecca and say "That's obviously made up, too".  Some of us will see a Catholic priest swinging incense and flinging holy water and say "That's _probably _made up".  Some people will see a baby waving his/her hand in the air possessed by the spirit and say "That's definitely NOT made up".  

Less people will see someone silently bowing their head in prayer at the Waffle House and say "That's made up".  Of someone quietly praying to a nondenominational 'God', some might say "THAT is most certainly made up".  

What are the standards?  Who's to judge?  What are the chances that all of them have it right?  I say 100%.  They all believe that what they're doing makes complete sense.  The truth is that the truth doesn't matter and that saddens me. It's all about individual feelings.  There are no standards in these matters.  This is a different animal.  It's not math, it's just a matter of taste. People like the flavors that they were brought up with.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> I've been thinking about your discussion for a couple of days now.  When most of us look at those videos of people speaking in tongues, it's easy for us to to say "Well, that's obviously made up".  We can watch people circle around the Black Stone in Mecca and say "That's obviously made up, too".  Some of us will see a Catholic priest swinging incense and flinging holy water and say "That's _probably _made up".  Some people will see a baby waving his/her hand in the air possessed by the spirit and say "That's definitely NOT made up".
> 
> Less people will see someone silently bowing their head in prayer at the Waffle House and say "That's made up".  Of someone quietly praying to a nondenominational 'God', some might say "THAT is most certainly made up".
> 
> What are the standards?  Who's to judge?  What are the chances that all, of them have it right?  I say 100%.  They all believe that what they're doing makes complete sense.  The truth is that the truth doesn't matter and that saddens me. It's all about individual feelings.  There are no standards in these matters.  This is a different animal.  It's not math, it's just a matter of taste. People like the flavors that they were brought up with.


Oh i agree that the truth is what an individual believes at the moment.
Some people are willing to learn with an open mind and some are not.
My whole purpose in this discussion was to get them to answer a few things honestly and they both avoided the questions multiple times.
Dont answer once and i think they probably missed because I include a lot in a post.
Twice and maybe have not thought about it enough to have a comfortable answer. 
Three and four times after i make a specific post asking them to please answer and I can't help but think that the answer they want to give does not line up with their beliefs and it refutes what they have been saying all along so they ignore it.
Or in welders case, he just says the others are mistakenly wrong with no details why because all reasons he would give refute his position too. He just carries on like it doesn't.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Oh i agree that the truth is what an individual believes at the moment.
> Some people are willing to learn with an open mind and some are not.
> My whole purpose in this discussion was to get them to answer a few things honestly and they both avoided the questions multiple times.
> Dont answer once and i think they probably missed because I include a lot in a post.
> Twice and maybe have not thought about it enough to have a comfortable answer.
> Three and four times after i make a specific post asking them to please answer and I can't help but think that the answer they want to give does not line up with their beliefs and it refutes what they have been saying all along so they ignore it.
> Or in welders case, he just says the others are mistakenly wrong with no details why because all reasons he would give refute his position too. He just carries on like it doesn't.



I answered all your questions to the best of my ability. Which one are you saying I am dodging. The one about the possibility of other Gods. I told you I don't believe there are. And the reason I believe that is because I have never experienced another God. I also told you all my personal beliefs are based on my life experiences. You don't believe me I get it. If you don't believe God why would you believe It makes perfect sense. I thought you might be interested  but it is clear you are not. I really don't think you are looking for the truth. I think you have already made your mind up. Again just my 2 cents.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> In this day and age if you're falling for that nonsense then you're a blight.   I don't anticipate anymore discussion.  How can anyone defend those videos?  Sorry for ruining your conversation.  You seemed like you were enjoying yourself.
> 
> The OP is "What Is True?"  Those videos show exactly what is NOT true.  We can advance on the question from there.



Not so fast ambush. You didn't think you were gonna get rid of me that easy did you. I will say you seem to be more open minded than others on this site. I really do believe you are looking for the truth. When clearly others are not.


----------



## welderguy

I'd like to know what question I alledgedly ignored also.


----------



## 1eyefishing

This is a tough reading thread for my simple mind. 
I would like to suggest that we all study up on the subject of epistemology. It is the philosophical study of how knowledge is known and separated from opinion.
That may do away with some of the argumentativeness on here and render words such as 'belief' and 'opinion' much less relevant. Respect to all...


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I answered all your questions to the best of my ability. Which one are you saying I am dodging. The one about the possibility of other Gods. I told you I don't believe there are. And the reason I believe that is because I have never experienced another God. I also told you all my personal beliefs are based on my life experiences. You don't believe me I get it. If you don't believe God why would you believe It makes perfect sense. I thought you might be interested  but it is clear you are not. I really don't think you are looking for the truth. I think you have already made your mind up. Again just my 2 cents.



Those other testimonies are as valid or as invalid as yours for the same reasons. If you are not lying why would they?

I used to believe. I now made up my mind to believe evidence. If the evidence supported a god I'd be all in.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Those other testimonies are as valid or as invalid as yours for the same reasons. If you are not lying why would they?
> 
> I used to believe. I now made up my mind to believe evidence. If the evidence supported a god I'd be all in.



I get your point. I understand the logic. I don't think its so. You believe your evidence I believe mine. I believe my God is the creator of the universe. I don't believe there are any other Gods.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> I get your point. I understand the logic. I don't think its so. You believe your evidence I believe mine. I believe my God is the creator of the universe. I don't believe there are any other Gods.


Cant help but notice - you say to Bullet -


> I really don't think you are looking for the truth. I think you have already made your mind up.


And then you say -


> I believe my God is the creator of the universe. I don't believe there are any other Gods.


Whats that saying about having a plank in your eye and living in a glass house?
Bullet is attempting to separate fact from fiction, folklore, metaphor and interpretation. Precisely for the reason of looking for the "truth".
And that causes you to think -


> I really don't think you are looking for the truth. I think you have already made your mind up.


Its interesting how point of view causes us to see things differently.


----------



## welderguy

The bible validates itself as being the truth by the 300+ precisely fulfilled prophecies of Jesus in the Old testament.
It was predicted that a Messiah would be born of a virgin in Bethlehem. And that they would flee to Egypt.
Daniel prophecied the exact time Jesus would begin His public ministry, 483 years from the decree to rebuild the temple.
David described His crucifixion in detail, before crucifixion was even invented.

These are only a few, but should serve to remove all doubt from a reasonable man's mind, who is able to understand the enormous mathematical odds of all the prophecies coming to fulfillment in detail.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> The bible validates itself as being the truth by the 300+ precisely fulfilled prophecies of Jesus in the Old testament.
> It was predicted that a Messiah would be born of a virgin in Bethlehem. And that they would flee to Egypt.
> Daniel prophecied the exact time Jesus would begin His public ministry, 483 years from the decree to rebuild the temple.
> David described His crucifixion in detail, before crucifixion was even invented.
> 
> These are only a few, but should serve to remove all doubt from a reasonable man's mind, who is able to understand the enormous mathematical odds of all the prophecies coming to fulfillment in detail.


Wow.


----------



## welderguy

Using statistical probability, scientists tell us the chance that the law of gravity will reverse is 1 in 10 to the 50th power.
They also tell us the chance that the laws of thermodynamics will reverse is 1 in 10 to the 80th power.
But, using this same criteria, the chance of all 300 Messianic prophecies just randomly coming true is 1 in 10 to the 2000th power.


----------



## centerpin fan

welderguy said:


> ... scientists tell us the chance that the law of gravity will reverse is 1 in 10 to the 50th power.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> Cant help but notice - you say to Bullet -
> 
> And then you say -
> 
> Whats that saying about having a plank in your eye and living in a glass house?
> Bullet is attempting to separate fact from fiction, folklore, metaphor and interpretation. Precisely for the reason of looking for the "truth".
> And that causes you to think -
> 
> Its interesting how point of view causes us to see things differently.



I agree with that about our point of view. But our point of view is based off of life experiences. If I believe God is creator of the universe why would he create other Gods. That was my point.


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> Wow.



Yes Walt, if it were not in writing right in front of you it would be hard to fathom it on your own.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I agree with that about our point of view. But our point of view is based off of life experiences. If I believe God is creator of the universe why would he create other Gods. That was my point.



What would you tell 5 billion other people who believe in other gods for the same reasons and the same experiences and the same evidence that you use to believe in yours?


----------



## 660griz

red neck richie said:


> I agree with that about our point of view. But our point of view is based off of life experiences. If I believe God is creator of the universe why would he create other Gods. That was my point.



Maybe all the Gods were there all the time. They decided to create a bunch of folks and compete for praise, and money.
They pretty much all say don't worship anyone but me. 
Whoever has the most followers at the time the sun burns out wins.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> I agree with that about our point of view. But our point of view is based off of life experiences. If I believe God is creator of the universe why would he create other Gods. That was my point.


If the story went that he created a dozen other Gods, you wouldn't even question it or give it a second thought.
Why would an all loving God allow innocent children to suffer every day in a hospital bed until their death?
Why would an all knowing God be "forced" to drown women, children, young, old, because he was disappointed they wouldn't listen to him to his satisfaction?
Why would an all powerful God allow the devil to run rampant and perform all these dastardly tasks?
Why would.......
Seems like you are kind of selective about asking "why would"...


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> Yes Walt, if it were not in writing right in front of you it would be hard to fathom it on your own.


Its kind of like a car wreck. 
You don't want to look but you just cant help it.


----------



## welderguy

More evidence


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> More evidence



I cannot believe it. You did it.
You finally proved that a guy from 2000 years ago died.

You do know the name on the inscription on that ossuary is spelled incorrectly don't you?
And, there is no mention on that box if the person in that box was a High Priest.

So, what  is that box evidence of?

Which passage in the OT says that a loyal servant of the welder tribe shall scour the 'net and find a pic of a box that contains the bones of a dead guy?


----------



## bullethead

"Some have suggested that the spelling of the name on the inscription makes it unclear whether it actually speaks of a Caiaphas, or a different name. He points out that the second letter in the Hebrew inscription is probably more likely to be the letter ו rather than the letter י and so would explain why the letter is omitted in the other inscriptions. This change in spelling would mean that the inscription does not say “Joseph son of Caiaphas”, but rather, “Joseph son of Qopha” or “Joseph son of Qupha” and so this would not be the same man who was the high priest during the time of Jesus’ ministry. Another problem which has been raised is that the ossuary is very intricate and ornate, yet was found in a very plain tomb, and so would seem slightly out of place. But the main issue with this is that usually important people, such as the high priest would be buried in tombs that are more special than others.

So while many accept the authenticity of this ossuary, there are still valid arguments for not believing the ossuary to be authentic."


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> "Some have suggested that the spelling of the name on the inscription makes it unclear whether it actually speaks of a Caiaphas, or a different name. He points out that the second letter in the Hebrew inscription is probably more likely to be the letter ×• rather than the letter ×™ and so would explain why the letter is omitted in the other inscriptions. This change in spelling would mean that the inscription does not say “Joseph son of Caiaphas”, but rather, “Joseph son of Qopha” or “Joseph son of Qupha” and so this would not be the same man who was the high priest during the time of Jesus’ ministry. Another problem which has been raised is that the ossuary is very intricate and ornate, yet was found in a very plain tomb, and so would seem slightly out of place. But the main issue with this is that usually important people, such as the high priest would be buried in tombs that are more special than others.
> 
> So while many accept the authenticity of this ossuary, there are still valid arguments for not believing the ossuary to be authentic."



Thanks for that information. very helpful in my research.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Thanks for that information. very helpful in my research.



You are welcome.
Why couldn't you find that yourself?
What was your post supposed to be evidence of exactly?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You are welcome.
> Why couldn't you find that yourself?
> What was your post supposed to be evidence of exactly?



My time is very limited these days. Working 60 hrs/week. I get a break now and then waiting on my Guatamalian fitter but not much.
I am looking into archaeological findings from the 1st Century that support/unsupport the biblical account.

That may or may not be Caiaphas' ossuary, but either way it doesn't take anything away from the biblical account.Agree?


----------



## red neck richie

welderguy said:


> My time is very limited these days. Working 60 hrs/week. I get a break now and then waiting on my Guatamalian fitter but not much.
> I am looking into archaeological findings from the 1st Century that support/unsupport the biblical account.
> 
> That may or may not be Caiaphas' ossuary, but either way it doesn't take anything away from the biblical account.Agree?



Welder, when you get a minute check out Gobekli Tepe. It is the oldest temple ever discovered. Many will tell you it is either the entrance to the garden of Eden or a temple that was in the garden.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> My time is very limited these days. Working 60 hrs/week. I get a break now and then waiting on my Guatamalian fitter but not much.
> I am looking into archaeological findings from the 1st Century that support/unsupport the biblical account.
> 
> That may or may not be Caiaphas' ossuary, but either way it doesn't take anything away from the biblical account.Agree?


It doesn't add anything to the biblical account either, agree?

If it was the ossuary of Caiaphas all it would prove is that Caiaphas lived at one time.
I dont think anyone has argued that.
Nobody is arguing that some people who are mentioned in the bible actually lived. 

What is missing is proof of the embellishments,  fables, folklore, and fantasy. 

Because you find evidence that a person existed does not immediately prove that a miracle happened.

There is not a doubt in my mind that a guy named Joshua  that made it his mission to preach about the God all Jews worshipped but ticked off the High Priests enough and so often that he was arrested and put to death for heresy.

You have to study the Jewish laws of the time to be able to understand the punishment.
You have to understand how criminals that committed certain crimes were punished.
You have to understand how the punishment was carried out.
You have to understand how the Romans handled things and how the Jews handled things and why they separated the laws at times.
You have to understand how certain criminals that were put to death were disposed of and why.
You have to understand how Roman guards operated.

Once you understand these things you will realize that what is written in the bible was done by someone who was not familiar with the practices mentioned above and took liberty with the accounts.

You will find that many of those writings used one source to base their writings off of, so much that exact phrases and sentences are used word for word in each and even so...the details differ. Call it artistic liberty.

Once you understand these things then you can discuss them.
Or
While discussing them at least research them on the fly.  And please dont search till you find the one that agrees with you, take the time to research multiple sources paying special attention to historical records instead of bible verses.

I dont care to change your faith, because once you really inform yourself you will have never needed faith more.
But once educated about these things I honestly think you look back at your posts  and re-evaluate your ways of "proof and evidence".


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> My time is very limited these days. Working 60 hrs/week. I get a break now and then waiting on my Guatamalian fitter but not much.
> I am looking into archaeological findings from the 1st Century that support/unsupport the biblical account.
> 
> That may or may not be Caiaphas' ossuary, but either way it doesn't take anything away from the biblical account.Agree?


Its good that you are trying to use actual "real" evidence - archeological findings - in your research.
However whether they support biblical accounts or not, is a matter of opinion or what can be proven.
The finding of Caiaphas ossuary would prove that an ossuary with the name Caiaphas on it was found. That's it. 
It doesn't even prove who is inside it.
That there are some people and some places that are in the Bible that did in fact exist is already an established fact.
Its the other 99.8% that is the issue.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Welder, when you get a minute check out Gobekli Tepe. It is the oldest temple ever discovered. Many will tell you it is either the entrance to the garden of Eden or a temple that was in the garden.


Welder is busy researching archeological evidence.
Once he goes past an ossuary or two he will find evidence of Neanderthals, and human type beings that go back 1.6 million years that
modern dna can be traced back to.
It goes well beyond a garden in the middle east with two people in it.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Welder is busy researching archeological evidence.
> Once he goes past an ossuary or two he will find evidence of Neanderthals, and human type beings that go back 1.6 million years that
> modern dna can be traced back to.
> It goes well beyond a garden in the middle east with two people in it.



I noticed you said human type. Monkeys have 98.8% of the same DNA as humans. I'm talking about Man here not animals. You know Adam and Eve. Have you read Genesis?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I noticed you said human type. Monkeys have 98.8% of the same DNA as humans. I'm talking about Man here not animals. You know Adam and Eve. Have you read Genesis?



Have I read genesis....lolol, um yeah.
I know who you are talking about, you just dont know what you are talking about.

Search how far modern humans can be traced back.

Get back to us.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> If the story went that he created a dozen other Gods, you wouldn't even question it or give it a second thought.
> Why would an all loving God allow innocent children to suffer every day in a hospital bed until their death?
> Why would an all knowing God be "forced" to drown women, children, young, old, because he was disappointed they wouldn't listen to him to his satisfaction?
> Why would an all powerful God allow the devil to run rampant and perform all these dastardly tasks?
> Why would.......
> Seems like you are kind of selective about asking "why would"...



Walt you seem to take issue with the way God does things. You don't think that's the way an all loving God should do things. I'm not going to say I understand the plan but I know there is one. Believe me I have experienced great loss in my life and wondered why. But I never doubted it was part of the plan. Yes sometimes it seems harsh or unfair but that's the way it is. He doesn't say believe in me and all your dreams will come true.


----------



## bullethead

So now we are back to the "plan".
If there is a plan that must be followed then you cannot have free will.


----------



## bullethead

We take issue with how believers in gods make excuses for no show gods.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> So now we are back to the "plan".
> If there is a plan that must be followed then you cannot have free will.



Not your plan Gods plan. You can do whatever you want so why are you mad when he does.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> We take issue with how believers in gods make excuses for no show gods.



In your time or his? You act like you should be able to tell him what to do.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Not your plan Gods plan. You can do whatever you want so why are you mad when he does.


Where do you get the notion that your god has a plan?


----------



## red neck richie

red neck richie said:


> In your time or his? You act like you should be able to tell him what to do.



Btw you taking issue is nothing compared to being thrown to the lions, what they use to do to us. So my apologies for not being concerned that you are taking issue with me God forbid.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> In your time or his? You act like you should be able to tell him what to do.


In Mighty Mouse time.

Can you for a second imagine how you would respond to someone asserting to you that their god does this or does that and includes and intertwines you in that gods world as if you are a product of that god. A god that you do not believe in at all none the less.
Would you play along or make it known that you do not play by those rules?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Btw you taking issue is nothing compared to being thrown to the lions, what they use to do to us. So my apologies for not being concerned that you are taking issue with me God forbid.


The Romans threw EVERYBODY to the lions, even other Romans.
Educate yourself man!


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Walt you seem to take issue with the way God does things. You don't think that's the way an all loving God should do things. I'm not going to say I understand the plan but I know there is one. Believe me I have experienced great loss in my life and wondered why. But I never doubted it was part of the plan. Yes sometimes it seems harsh or unfair but that's the way it is. He doesn't say believe in me and all your dreams will come true.


No.


----------



## bullethead

Ritchie, how does god say anything?
Does it talk to you directly?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> In Mighty Mouse time.
> 
> Can you for a second imagine how you would respond to someone asserting to you that their god does this or does that and includes and intertwines you in that gods world as if you are a product of that god. A god that you do not believe in at all none the less.
> Would you play along or make it known that you do not play by those rules?



Play by your own rules brother it is after all an open forum. You state your 2 cents I state mine. Nobody said we have to sing how great thou art together.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Play by your own rules brother it is after all an open forum. You state your 2 cents I state mine. Nobody said we have to sing how great thou art together.



But you expect us to play in your world.
"In your time or his?.."
Seriously, to me you are talking about a fictional character that you absolutely cannot give one single shred of physical proof of except for what it is your mind. And yet you do not accept anyone else that does the same thing as proof of their god.

You expect us to live by  words written over 1600 years by anonymous men as if they are fact.
I say, if your god cant write his own book then it isn't a god. 

I would LOVE for someone to come on here, ESPECIALLY your god, and set me straight with solid evidence. Heck I am open to a personal visit from a god any time, any day.

I used to think like you, talk like you, assert like you,  declare like you and think everything around me was based off of the bible and a god. And then I realized that I couldnt back one single shred of it up with anything tangible.  The more I tried the less I believed.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> But you expect us to play in your world.
> "In your time or his?.."
> Seriously, to me you are talking about a fictional character that you absolutely cannot give one single shred of physical proof of except for what it is your mind. And yet you do not accept anyone else that does the same thing as proof of their god.
> 
> You expect us to live by  words written over 1600 years by anonymous men as if they are fact.
> I say, if your god cant write his own book then it isn't a god.
> 
> I would LOVE for someone to come on here, ESPECIALLY your god, and set me straight with solid evidence. Heck I am open to a personal visit from a god any time, any day.
> 
> I used to think like you, talk like you, assert like you,  declare like you and think everything around me was based off of the bible and a god. And then I realized that I couldnt back one single shred of it up with anything tangible.  The more I tried the less I believed.



Faith


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Faith


This is EXACTLY right.
Because when the truth doesn't fit your beliefs, use faith to override common sense, facts, and reality.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> This is EXACTLY right.
> Because when the truth doesn't fit your beliefs, use faith to override common sense, facts, and reality.



Not true I use facts and reality. I also seek the truth. We can debate on the common sense. Like my wife getting mad because I am blogging with you  on Valentines day. She said they wont listen. I told her probably not but it doesn't hurt to try.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Not true I use facts and reality. I also seek the truth. We can debate on the common sense. Like my wife getting mad because I am blogging with you  on Valentines day. She said they wont listen. I told her probably not but it doesn't hurt to try.


Facts are backed up with evidence. The truth is universal and cannot be denied.
Well, you can deny anything but nobody that denies gravity will stand under an anvil hanging from a rope and let someone else cut the rope. Reality wins.

What facts are you using?
Parlor tricks you witnessed when you were 10?
We listen. And we ask for you, and welder and anyone else to back up your claims.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Facts are backed up with evidence. The truth is universal and cannot be denied.
> Well, you can deny anything but nobody that denies gravity will stand under an anvil hanging from a rope and let someone else cut the rope. Reality wins.
> 
> What facts are you using?
> Parlor tricks you witnessed when you were 10?
> We listen. And we ask for you, and welder and anyone else to back up your claims.



Oh that was just the first experience. I have had many since then. I would be happy to tell you about them. But if you don't deem my experiences relevant oh mighty bullethead then there is no need.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Oh that was just the first experience. I have had many since then. I would be happy to tell you about them. But if you don't deem my experiences relevant oh mighty bullethead then there is no need.


I'll listen to yours if you listen to my possible explanations for them.
No need to rank me with a "mighty" title. I am just a thinking man. Save the mightys for the mouse and invisible deities.
I want to be able to narrow it all down to a god  and a specific god but that and 100's of other possibilities exist.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> No.



Sunshine and rainbows right Walt.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I'll listen to yours if you listen to my possible explanations for them.
> No need to rank me with a "mighty" title. I am just a thinking man. Save the mightys for the mouse and invisible deities.
> I want to be able to narrow it all down to a god  and a specific god but that and 100's of other possibilities exist.



Deal. I will be in touch.


----------



## bullethead

Richie, if you had not been raised Christian and not had read or had access to a bible, how would you know who or what was responsible for anything?
Think about it, you were first raised with someone telling you god did it,  then you came up through sunday school and church being taught verses from a book (not the bad ones mind you) that is geared towards obedience. And now you spend your adult life making sure at least once a week you attend a building where this stuff is repeatedly thumped into your head.
If you were born and raised on a non religious island do you think that would know anything about a god, let alone think that the gods portrayed in the bible were responsible for you and everything on that island? Would you look at each sunset and think it was happening because some spiritual being that drowns people,  get virgins pregnant and makes himself the baby only to kill himself so that he can live has GOT to be responsible for it all?


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Sunshine and rainbows right Walt.


And flowers.
I like flowers.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Richie, if you had not been raised Christian and not had read or had access to a bible, how would you know who or what was responsible for anything?
> Think about it, you were first raised with someone telling you god did it,  then you came up through sunday school and church being taught verses from a book (not the bad ones mind you) that is geared towards obedience. And now you spend your adult life making sure at least once a week you attend a building where this stuff is repeatedly thumped into your head.
> If you were born and raised on a non religious island do you think that would know anything about a god, let alone think that the gods portrayed in the bible were responsible for you and everything on that island? Would you look at each sunset and think it was happening because some spiritual being that drowns people,  get virgins pregnant and makes himself the baby only to kill himself so that he can live has GOT to be responsible for it all?



I would have, definitely.
I wouldn't know all the details of it, but I would have the revelation of the Holy Spirit. This I am sure of. Yep. Yes sir.
Them who He foreknew,...them He also called...


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I would have, definitely.
> I wouldn't know all the details of it, but I would have the revelation of the Holy Spirit. This I am sure of. Yep. Yes sir.
> Them who He foreknew,...them He also called...



You would be the first.  Why do you think that's never happened before?  Why do you think that indigenous people never spontaneously start believing in Jesus but only do so after contact with Christians?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> You would be the first.  Why do you think that's never happened before?  Why do you think that indigenous people never spontaneously start believing in Jesus but only do so after contact with Christians?



You need to understand that when the Spirit calls , He changes (transforms) that person into a " new creature". He doesn't fill in all the blanks of head knowledge, but He gives him a thirst for that knowledge based on the faith that He has now put in place. The changed person will seek the source of his faith, because he is drawn to it by what's living within him.


----------



## ambush80

ambush80 said:


> You would be the first.  Why do you think that's never happened before?  Why do you think that indigenous people never spontaneously start believing in Jesus but only do so after contact with Christians?




Here.  Let me help you.  

"Those people who have never heard of Jesus and never will are Vessels of Wrath, created by the loving hand of the Creator of the Universe to be born, die, and then spend eternity in the fiery pit of He11.   I don't know why God would do this but I trust that He has a plan and I am grateful that He has chosen me and mine for eternity with Him in Heaven.  Amen."

You're right.  It's so simple even a child can understand it.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> You need to understand that when the Spirit calls , He changes (transforms) that person into a " new creature". He doesn't fill in all the blanks of head knowledge, but He gives him a thirst for that knowledge based on the faith that He has now put in place. The changed person will seek the source of his faith, because he is drawn to it by what's living within him.



...and some of them end up worshiping trees, and some of them end up worshiping Allah, and some of them end up worshiping Hale-Bop.  

You're so close.  

People obviously seek a higher power.  They've been doing it for as long as we can tell.  When you understand that, you will realize that they don't ever know what the heck they're talking about.  They come up with all kinds of supernatural explanations and a myriad cast of whimsical characters to explain the mysteries of life.  Your God arose from the same human confusion as the rest of them did.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> ...and some of them end up worshiping trees, and some of them end up worshiping Allah, and some of them end up worshiping Hale-Bop.
> 
> You're so close.
> 
> People obviously seek a higher power.  They've been doing it for as long as we can tell.  When you understand that you will realize that they don't ever know what the heck they're talking about.  They come up with all kinds of supernatural explanations and a myriad cast of whimsical characters to explain the mysteries of life.  Your God arose from the same human confusion as the rest of them did.



I don't lump them all in one group as you do.
I see a difference.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I don't lump them all in one group as you do.
> I see a difference.




That's right.  You see yourself as special; handpicked and privy to the thoughts of God.  He speaks to you directly and tells you what His intentions are.  'They' think that, too.  But 'They' are mistaken, not you. ('They' might include Christians that you don't agree with)

You aren't just Human like the rest of us.  You're Homo Electus.

You've set yourself up for living a life of untruth.  You may think that you're doing the best you can but you're not.  You're not trying to understand anything.  You're just trying to reinforce what you've chosen to believe.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  You see yourself as special; handpicked and privy to the thoughts of God.  He speaks to you directly and tells you what His intentions are.  'They' do, too.  But 'They' are mistaken, not you.
> 
> You aren't just Human like the rest of us.  You're Homo Electus.
> 
> You've set yourself up for living a life of untruth.  You may think that you're doing the best you can but you're not.  You're not trying to understand anything.  You're just trying to reinforce what you've chosen to believe.



I didn't say, and would not say all that. I think you may have misinterpreted.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I didn't say, and would not say all that. I think you may have misinterpreted.



Take apart what I said line for line and tell me specifically which parts I got wrong.


----------



## ambush80

Anyone care to comment on this?  What did I get wrong here?



ambush80 said:


> Here.  Let me help you.
> 
> "Those people who have never heard of Jesus and never will are Vessels of Wrath, created by the loving hand of the Creator of the Universe to be born, die, and then spend eternity in the fiery pit of He11.   I don't know why God would do this but I trust that He has a plan and I am grateful that He has chosen me and mine for eternity with Him in Heaven.  Amen."
> 
> You're right.  It's so simple even a child can understand it.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  You see yourself as special; handpicked and privy to the thoughts of God.  He speaks to you directly and tells you what His intentions are.  'They' think that, too.  But 'They' are mistaken, not you. ('They' might include Christians that you don't agree with)
> 
> You aren't just Human like the rest of us.  You're Homo Electus.
> 
> You've set yourself up for living a life of untruth.  You may think that you're doing the best you can but you're not.  You're not trying to understand anything.  You're just trying to reinforce what you've chosen to believe.


Spot the heck on!!


----------



## bullethead

For every welderguy out there in christianity there is his exact twin in every other religion.  They dismiss each other for the same reasons without realizing they all say the same thing.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  You see yourself as special; handpicked and privy to the thoughts of God.  He speaks to you directly and tells you what His intentions are.  'They' think that, too.  But 'They' are mistaken, not you. ('They' might include Christians that you don't agree with)
> 
> You aren't just Human like the rest of us.  You're Homo Electus.
> 
> You've set yourself up for living a life of untruth.  You may think that you're doing the best you can but you're not.  You're not trying to understand anything.  You're just trying to reinforce what you've chosen to believe.
> 
> Take apart line for line and tell me specifically which parts I got wrong.



1st paragraph:
I am not special or better in any way than anyone else. I have been made a part of something that is very special. The elect family of God. I've been adopted as a son. I am part of the body of Christ (an uncomely part). You may be also...you just don't know it yet. You are one of those I pray for regularly in this regard, that if you are your eyes would be opened.

2nd paragraph:
I am simply a person struggling to live the way I believe God's word instructs me to. I sin daily. If you knew all the things in my past you probably wouldn't even want to be associated with me. And I wouldn't blame you.

I have no ill will toward you. I want very much for you to see what I see. But it's not up to me.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> 1st paragraph:
> I am not special or better in any way than anyone else. I have been made a part of something that is very special. The elect family of God. I've been adopted as a son. I am part of the body of Christ (an uncomely part). You may be also...you just don't know it yet. You are one of those I pray for regularly in this regard, that if you are your eyes would be opened.
> 
> 2nd paragraph:
> I am simply a person struggling to live the way I believe God's word instructs me to. I sin daily. If you knew all the things in my past you probably wouldn't even want to be associated with me. And I wouldn't blame you.
> 
> I have no I'll will toward you. I want very much for you to see what I see. But it's not up to me.



Minus the Christ reference that is the mantra of a humble believer in most major religions.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Minus the Christ reference that is the mantra of a humble believer in most major religions.



I would not argue with this, generally speaking, but also knowing there are exceptions in every case.

You do realize, however, that this mantra minus Christ is not what designates any religion as being true.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> 1st paragraph:
> I am not special or better in any way than anyone else. I have been made a part of something that is very special. The elect family of God. I've been adopted as a son. I am part of the body of Christ (an uncomely part). You may be also...you just don't know it yet. You are one of those I pray for regularly in this regard, that if you are your eyes would be opened.



The definition of "Special" in the OED:

_"2Belonging specifically to a particular person or place:

2.1 Designed or organized for a particular person, purpose, or occasion:"_

Looks pretty much like the part in blue.  





welderguy said:


> 2nd paragraph:
> I am simply a person struggling to live the way I believe God's word instructs me to. I sin daily. If you knew all the things in my past you probably wouldn't even want to be associated with me. And I wouldn't blame you.
> 
> I have no ill will toward you. I want very much for you to see what I see. But it's not up to me.





ambush80 said:


> You've set yourself up for living a life of untruth.  You may think that you're doing the best you can but you're not.  You're not trying to understand anything.  You're just trying to reinforce what you've chosen to believe.



I completely understand what's going on inside you.  I can disagree with people's beliefs yet understand why they hold them.  Would you be willing to demonstrate that you've thoroughly examined your beliefs by giving me what you think the three best arguments AGAINST your belief?  

I'll start by giving you what I think are the best arguments in support of your type of belief.

1.  "Man has always sought the Divine."

2.  "There are things that we will never know."  

3.  "If we can imagine a perfect being then it most likely exists somewhere."

Your turn.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I would not argue with this, generally speaking, but also knowing there are exceptions in every case.
> 
> You do realize, however, that this mantra minus Christ is not what designates any religion as being true.


No, I do not realize.
Explain it to me in a detailed way that supports your claim.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> The definition of "Special" in the OED:
> 
> _"2Belonging specifically to a particular person or place:
> 
> 2.1 Designed or organized for a particular person, purpose, or occasion:"_
> 
> Looks pretty much like the part in blue.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I completely understand what's going on inside you.  I can disagree with people's beliefs yet understand why they hold them.  Would you be willing to demonstrate that you've thoroughly examined your beliefs by giving me what you think the three best arguments AGAINST your belief?
> 
> I'll start by giving you what I think are the best arguments in support of your type of belief.
> 
> 1.  "Man has always sought the Divine."
> 
> 2.  "There are things that we will never know."
> 
> 3.  "If we can imagine a perfect being then it most likely exists somewhere."
> 
> Your turn.



1)The number 1 reason that sometimes makes me doubt is when I consider my great sinfulness.How could there be a God who would love someone like me?
2)Probably the number 2 reason I doubt sometimes is when I begin to see all my, and others', struggles and afflictions. If there's a God that loves me, why is life such a struggle?
3)The 3rd would be my impatience.Why, if God loves me, doesn't He hurry up and come back to take us to heaven?

I doubt when I get in the flesh, but it's those times that drive me to my knees even more, and I find His peace that passes all understanding.
I realize then how foolish I was to doubt.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> No, I do not realize.
> Explain it to me in a detailed way that supports your claim.



What I'm trying to say is anyone can clean up the outside appearance, but it takes Christ to cleanse you on the inside. This is the difference I speak of.
Men only see the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> What I'm trying to say is anyone can clean up the outside appearance, but it takes Christ to cleanse you on the inside. This is the difference I speak of.
> Men only see the outward appearance, but God looks on the heart.


I know what you are saying, I am not asking you to say it again, I asked you to explain it in a way that SUPPORTS your claim.
You can say 50 times that it takes Christ to cleanse you on the inside, but you have not shown how he does, let alone that he can.
You have not shown why believers in other religions cannot be cleansed on the inside.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> 1)The number 1 reason that sometimes makes me doubt is when I consider my great sinfulness.How could there be a God who would love someone like me?
> 2)Probably the number 2 reason I doubt sometimes is when I begin to see all my, and others', struggles and afflictions. If there's a God that loves me, why is life such a struggle?
> 3)The 3rd would be my impatience.Why, if God loves me, doesn't He hurry up and come back to take us to heaven?
> 
> I doubt when I get in the flesh, but it's those times that drive me to my knees even more, and I find His peace that passes all understanding.
> I realize then how foolish I was to doubt.



Lets try again.  What are your three best arguments against the existence of God?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> 1)The number 1 reason that sometimes makes me doubt is when I consider my great sinfulness.How could there be a God who would love someone like me?
> 2)Probably the number 2 reason I doubt sometimes is when I begin to see all my, and others', struggles and afflictions. If there's a God that loves me, why is life such a struggle?
> 3)The 3rd would be my impatience.Why, if God loves me, doesn't He hurry up and come back to take us to heaven?
> 
> I doubt when I get in the flesh, but it's those times that drive me to my knees even more, and I find His peace that passes all understanding.
> I realize then how foolish I was to doubt.



Do you want Revelation to come to pass right now?  Do you want to be in Heaven with God right now?  Is this world so sucky that you would wish Armageddon to come  as it was prophesied  as soon as possible?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Lets try again.  What are your three best arguments against the existence of God?



I honestly don't have any valid arguments against the existence of God. I admit I sometimes have some doubts but they are unfounded. 

I know you don't want to hear it but I am totally committed in my belief.
I don't think it would be possible for anything to shake my belief, because the very things that seem like they will, only prove to  strengthen it .


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Do you want Revelation to come to pass right now?  Do you want to be in Heaven with God right now?  Is this world so sucky that you would wish Armageddon to come  as it was prophesied  as soon as possible?



I don't have a bad life. Actually I'm very blessed. But nothing in this world or this life holds my affection in comparison to my Lord. I'm looking forward to seeing Him and being totally sinless.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I don't have a bad life. Actually I'm very blessed. But nothing in this world or this life holds my affection in comparison to my Lord. I'm looking forward to seeing Him and being totally sinless.




And you would love for that to happen right now.  Right this second.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I know what you are saying, I am not asking you to say it again, I asked you to explain it in a way that SUPPORTS your claim.
> You can say 50 times that it takes Christ to cleanse you on the inside, but you have not shown how he does, let alone that he can.
> You have not shown why believers in other religions cannot be cleansed on the inside.



Christ did the cleansing on the cross by His blood, but the realization of that cleansing comes at regeneration. That is the point in time when a child of God is made alive to spiritual things; he is made to know he has been washed.

Believers in other religions CAN be cleansed. There is not one so filthy that Jesus' blood couldn't cleanse. But here's the thing, when they are regenerated, there will then be a conflict in their spirit.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> And you would love for that to happen right now.  Right this second.



yes, definately.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I honestly don't have any valid arguments against the existence of God. I admit I sometimes have some doubts but they are unfounded.
> 
> I know you don't want to hear it but I am totally committed in my belief.
> I don't think it would be possible for anything to shake my belief, because the very things that seem like they will, only prove to  strengthen it .



I know you're totally committed to your belief.  Everybody knows it.    It's the nature of that kind of belief.  It's unproveable and unfalsifiable and it confirms itself.  It's by its very nature completely different from a truth claim.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> yes, definately.



These guys did, too.  They couldn't wait.  Imagine the pure rapture they must have felt.  You would know better than I how they felt because you have a different frame of reference than me, more similar to theirs.  How did they feel?  Confused?   Duped?  How confident do you think they were that what they were doing was God's will?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie, if you had not been raised Christian and not had read or had access to a bible, how would you know who or what was responsible for anything?
> Think about it, you were first raised with someone telling you god did it,  then you came up through sunday school and church being taught verses from a book (not the bad ones mind you) that is geared towards obedience. And now you spend your adult life making sure at least once a week you attend a building where this stuff is repeatedly thumped into your head.
> If you were born and raised on a non religious island do you think that would know anything about a god, let alone think that the gods portrayed in the bible were responsible for you and everything on that island? Would you look at each sunset and think it was happening because some spiritual being that drowns people,  get virgins pregnant and makes himself the baby only to kill himself so that he can live has GOT to be responsible for it all?



Bullet I wasn't raised a Christian. My family didn't attend Church. I was and am not today the choir boy you perceive me to be. My belief comes from hard core life lessons and experiences. Not to say I had never heard of God before. When I was young I new of him but not about him. You asked me if God directly speaks to me. No not directly but indirectly, although I know people he has spoken to directly. One of which I have been married to for 27 years. I'll give you an example. I take my daughter on a fishing trip every spring. We go to a lake in north Ga., in the mountains. We enjoyed a great weekend of fishing, hanging out by the campfire and star gazing. Just enjoying creation. On the way home I was feeling thankful for the weekend. So I started to pray and I thanked God for the blessings he has given me and I thanked him for the fish and most important I thanked him for the time with my daughter. At the end of my prayer I prayed to him that he would use me to do his will. At that exact moment I was passing over the top of the mountain I was driving over and a woman popped out of the woods and put her thumb up to hitch a ride. I never pick up hitch hikers and told my daughter to never pick up hitch hikers for safety reasons. But something was telling me I needed to pick her up. So I pulled over and she asked if I could give her a ride into town. I sure I am headed that way. When I dropped her of in town she tried to pay me for the lift I told her there was no need to pay me I was headed that way anyway. She turned to walk off and turned back around and asked if I had a minute. I said sure She said something told me to tell you this. I said what is it. She said Ive been on a 3 day hike on the mountain to get closer to God. When I was walking out of the woods I was praying to God that he would send someone to pick me up. I said that crazy Because at the exact moment you praying for a ride I was praying that God would use me to do his will. But That's how he works with me but everybody is different and there relationship with him is different. Sorry such a long post but its hard to put this stuff into words.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I wasn't raised a Christian. My family didn't attend Church. I was and am not today the choir boy you perceive me to be. My belief comes from hard core life lessons and experiences. Not to say I had never heard of God before. When I was young I new of him but not about him. You asked me if God directly speaks to me. No not directly but indirectly, although I know people he has spoken to directly. One of which I have been married to for 27 years. I'll give you an example. I take my daughter on a fishing trip every spring. We go to a lake in north Ga., in the mountains. We enjoyed a great weekend of fishing, hanging out by the campfire and star gazing. Just enjoying creation. On the way home I was feeling thankful for the weekend. So I started to pray and I thanked God for the blessings he has given me and I thanked him for the fish and most important I thanked him for the time with my daughter. At the end of my prayer I prayed to him that he would use me to do his will. At that exact moment I was passing over the top of the mountain I was driving over and a woman popped out of the woods and put her thumb up to hitch a ride. I never pick up hitch hikers and told my daughter to never pick up hitch hikers for safety reasons. But something was telling me I needed to pick her up. So I pulled over and she asked if I could give her a ride into town. I sure I am headed that way. When I dropped her of in town she tried to pay me for the lift I told her there was no need to pay me I was headed that way anyway. She turned to walk off and turned back around and asked if I had a minute. I said sure She said something told me to tell you this. I said what is it. She said Ive been on a 3 day hike on the mountain to get closer to God. When I was walking out of the woods I was praying to God that he would send someone to pick me up. I said that crazy Because at the exact moment you praying for a ride I was praying that God would use me to do his will. But That's how he works with me but everybody is different and there relationship with him is different. Sorry such a long post but its hard to put this stuff into words.



God ALWAYS answers  prayers.  He does it   in three ways: "Yes, No, Not Right Now."

Amen?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> These guys did, too.  They couldn't wait.  Imagine the pure rapture they must have felt.  You would know better than I how they felt because you have a different frame of reference than me, more similar to theirs.  How did they feel?  Confused?   Duped?  How confident do you think they were that what they were doing was God's will?



I have no desire to kill anyone. I want nothing but peace for every human being. 
I cannot speak for those individuals who did those outrageous acts of terror. Your guess is certainly as good as mine.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I have no desire to kill anyone. I want nothing but peace for every human being.
> I cannot speak for those individuals who did those outrageous acts of terror. Your guess is certainly as good as mine.



Your guess is better than mine because you believe in Paradise.  You know what it feels like to believe in Paradise with all your heart and soul.  You know what devotion to God is.  You know what it feels like.  You know how they felt.  You may channel it in a different way but you know how deep their commitment was.

Do you know who the Jains are? They don't even want to harm bugs so they wear surgical masks.  They want nothing but  peace for all living creatures.  Do you think that they think what they're doing is stupid?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> God ALWAYS answers  prayers.  He does it   in three ways: "Yes, No, Not Right Now."
> 
> Amen?



Amen!


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Amen!



Pray to Me Ma's black iron skillet and you'll get the same answer.  "Yes, No, Not Right Now."

Amen?

I've tried it.  It works every time.  You can even ask it for guidance.  If the Almighty God wants to speak to you though a frying pan or a donkey then he most certainly can.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Your guess is better than mine because you believe in Paradise.  You know what it feels like to believe in Paradise with all your heart and soul.  You know what devotion to God is.  You know what it feels like.  You know how they felt.  You may channel it in a different way but you know how deep their commitment was.
> 
> Do you know who the Jains are? They don't even want to harm bugs so they wear surgical masks.  They want nothing but  peace for all living creatures.  Do you think that they think what they're doing is stupid?



I do believe in paradise, but I also equally believe in love and peace. I think that's the difference here.
I understand your point though. You are hammering on the point that when people believe something that strongly to be right, they will even die for that cause. I agree that they will. I also believe that many have very wrong influences at work against them.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Pray to Me Ma's black iron skillet.  You'll get the same answer.  "Yes, No, Not Right Now."
> 
> Amen?
> 
> I've tried it.  It works every time.  You can even ask it for guidance.  If the Almighty God wants to speak to you though a frying pan or a donkey then he most certainly can.



I don't think I will be trying that one. I'm glad it worked for you though. You do know Amen means so be it right?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I do believe in paradise, but I also equally believe in love and peace. I think that's the difference here.



Granted.  Like I said, you channel it in different ways.  The Jains channel it in an even more peaceful way than you do.  Don't you agree?



welderguy said:


> I understand your point though. You are hammering on the point that when people believe something that strongly to be right, they will even die for that cause. I agree that they will. I also believe that many have very wrong influences at work against them.



And they believe that about you.  Ain't that sumthin'?


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> I don't think I will be trying that one. I'm glad it worked for you though. You do know Amen means so be it right?



It will work for you, too. Run it through your mind like an experiment.   You don't have to actually blaspheme and pray to a skillet.  Just imagine me doing it.  Watch what happens to my prayer.  It gets answered just like yours.  How could you tell the difference?

So be it.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> And they believe that about you.  Ain't that sumthin'?



Sure they do.
Are you saying that because two parties have opposing views, that automatically means neither one is right?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> It will work for you, too. Run it through your mind like an experiment.   You don't have to actually blaspheme and pray to a skillet.  Just imagine me doing it.  Watch what happens to my prayer.  It gets answered just like yours.  How could you tell the difference?
> 
> So be it.



That would be blaspheme to me I will not do it. Your a hard one to figure out ambush. You seem like your heart is in the right place. I don't know what the game is but I'll play. One is God and one is a pan. Did I get it right?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Sure they do.
> Are you saying that because two parties have opposing views, that automatically means neither one is right?



It's a possibility, isn't it?


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> That would be blaspheme to me I will not do it. Your a hard one to figure out ambush. You seem like your heart is in the right place. I don't know what the game is but I'll play. One is God and one is a pan. Did I get it right?



I'm not hard to figure out.  My heart is in the right place.  I'm looking for the truth.  Figuring out what that is is the hard part. You can help me and all the people reading find out what that is. 

Why would it be blasphemy if you imagined me praying to a skillet?  Is it blasphemy for you to imagine a Jew praying, or a Muslim, or a Shinto Bubbhist?  When they pray they get the same answers as you "Yes, No,  Not Right Now".


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> I'm not hard to figure out.  My heart is in the right place.  I'm looking for the truth.  Figuring out what that is is the hard part. You can help me and all the people reading find out what that is.
> 
> Why would it be blasphemy if you imagined me praying to a skillet?  Is it blasphemy for you to imagine a Jew praying, or a Muslim, or a Shinto Bubbhist?  When they pray they get the same answers as you "Yes, No,  Not Right Now".



I said it would be for me. Because I don't believe in any other God. But I don't wish ill will to others that do. To each his own. But I do struggle with Muslims that want to kill people for their beliefs.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> I said it would be for me. Because I don't believe in any other God. But I don't wish ill will to others that do. To each his own. But I do struggle with Muslims that want to kill people for their beliefs.



Is it blasphemy to imagine people praying to Jesus in a gay church?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Is it blasphemy to imagine people praying to Jesus in a gay church?



There is such a thing? Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. I think gays have a sexual fetish. But again to each his own no ill will wished upon you. Everybody will meet their maker it is up to him. Ambush are you gay? That's why I couldn't figure you out.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> There is such a thing? Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve. I think gays have a sexual fetish. But again to each his own no ill will wished upon you. Everybody will meet their maker it is up to him. Ambush are you gay? That's why I couldn't figure you out.



http://www.urbanvillagechurch.org/

That's me in the picture (maaaaaayybe).

What part of our discussion made you wonder if I'm gay?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> http://www.urbanvillagechurch.org/
> 
> That's me in the picture (maaaaaayybe).
> 
> What part of our discussion made you wonder if I'm gay?



The part where you mentioned a gay church. I didn't know they existed. But like I said its not up to me.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> The part where you mentioned a gay church. I didn't know they existed. But like I said its not up to me.



Out of your pay grade.  I understand.  It's out of my pay grade, too; the whole understanding God thing.

So is it blasphemy to imagine gays praying to Jesus?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I wasn't raised a Christian. My family didn't attend Church. I was and am not today the choir boy you perceive me to be. My belief comes from hard core life lessons and experiences. Not to say I had never heard of God before. When I was young I new of him but not about him. You asked me if God directly speaks to me. No not directly but indirectly, although I know people he has spoken to directly. One of which I have been married to for 27 years. I'll give you an example. I take my daughter on a fishing trip every spring. We go to a lake in north Ga., in the mountains. We enjoyed a great weekend of fishing, hanging out by the campfire and star gazing. Just enjoying creation. On the way home I was feeling thankful for the weekend. So I started to pray and I thanked God for the blessings he has given me and I thanked him for the fish and most important I thanked him for the time with my daughter. At the end of my prayer I prayed to him that he would use me to do his will. At that exact moment I was passing over the top of the mountain I was driving over and a woman popped out of the woods and put her thumb up to hitch a ride. I never pick up hitch hikers and told my daughter to never pick up hitch hikers for safety reasons. But something was telling me I needed to pick her up. So I pulled over and she asked if I could give her a ride into town. I sure I am headed that way. When I dropped her of in town she tried to pay me for the lift I told her there was no need to pay me I was headed that way anyway. She turned to walk off and turned back around and asked if I had a minute. I said sure She said something told me to tell you this. I said what is it. She said Ive been on a 3 day hike on the mountain to get closer to God. When I was walking out of the woods I was praying to God that he would send someone to pick me up. I said that crazy Because at the exact moment you praying for a ride I was praying that God would use me to do his will. But That's how he works with me but everybody is different and there relationship with him is different. Sorry such a long post but its hard to put this stuff into words.


Why would God change his PLAN because someone is asking him to through prayer?

The pickup would have happened without either one of you praying if it was his Plan.

You two praying had to be part of his plan also and really unneeded because he planned for that hitchiker to walk out when you drove by.

Making the both of you pray to him for something that he planned to happen anyway is just an ego stroke.

You and that hitchiker was gonna happen whether you wanted it to or not.

Neither of you really had a choice in it. You couldn't refuse it if you wanted to.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I wasn't raised a Christian. My family didn't attend Church. I was and am not today the choir boy you perceive me to be. My belief comes from hard core life lessons and experiences. Not to say I had never heard of God before. When I was young I new of him but not about him. You asked me if God directly speaks to me. No not directly but indirectly, although I know people he has spoken to directly. One of which I have been married to for 27 years. I'll give you an example. I take my daughter on a fishing trip every spring. We go to a lake in north Ga., in the mountains. We enjoyed a great weekend of fishing, hanging out by the campfire and star gazing. Just enjoying creation. On the way home I was feeling thankful for the weekend. So I started to pray and I thanked God for the blessings he has given me and I thanked him for the fish and most important I thanked him for the time with my daughter. At the end of my prayer I prayed to him that he would use me to do his will. At that exact moment I was passing over the top of the mountain I was driving over and a woman popped out of the woods and put her thumb up to hitch a ride. I never pick up hitch hikers and told my daughter to never pick up hitch hikers for safety reasons. But something was telling me I needed to pick her up. So I pulled over and she asked if I could give her a ride into town. I sure I am headed that way. When I dropped her of in town she tried to pay me for the lift I told her there was no need to pay me I was headed that way anyway. She turned to walk off and turned back around and asked if I had a minute. I said sure She said something told me to tell you this. I said what is it. She said Ive been on a 3 day hike on the mountain to get closer to God. When I was walking out of the woods I was praying to God that he would send someone to pick me up. I said that crazy Because at the exact moment you praying for a ride I was praying that God would use me to do his will. But That's how he works with me but everybody is different and there relationship with him is different. Sorry such a long post but its hard to put this stuff into words.


And, you still didn't answer the Island question that I asked.


----------



## bullethead

Gays=gods plan.


----------



## bullethead

I attended a wedding where a woman married another woman. The minister announced that in the eyes of God and the power vested in him that the two were sealed in matrimony.

They Had to have gods approval for that to be said. Right?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> And, you still didn't answer the Island question that I asked.



They will know God but not the details.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I attended a wedding where a woman married another woman. The minister announced that in the eyes of God and the power vested in him that the two were sealed in matrimony.
> 
> They Had to have gods approval for that to be said. Right?



No dude are you serious? They had man's approval not Gods. You can say anything you want. I thought you said you use to believe then you should know where I'm coming from. Am I that far off base from what you use to know?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Gays=gods plan.



This site has really become Gay? Gods plan>Gays.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Out of your pay grade.  I understand.  It's out of my pay grade, too; the whole understanding God thing.
> 
> So is it blasphemy to imagine gays praying to Jesus?



Not to me. Anybody that loves Jesus and believes in him should pray. But me being a straight male honestly I don't understand the whole gay thing. But like I told you its not up to me.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Out of your pay grade.  I understand.  It's out of my pay grade, too; the whole understanding God thing.
> 
> So is it blasphemy to imagine gays praying to Jesus?



Ambush can you explain your avatar? A big amazon woman looking through a small door at a gay man?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> No dude are you serious? They had man's approval not Gods. You can say anything you want. I thought you said you use to believe then you should know where I'm coming from. Am I that far off base from what you use to know?


I know exactly where you are coming from and that is why I know you are so mistaken.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> This site has really become Gay? Gods plan>Gays.



How could anything exist if god did not plan for it?
He had to know people would be gay. Gay had to be a part of his plan.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Why would God change his PLAN because someone is asking him to through prayer?
> 
> The pickup would have happened without either one of you praying if it was his Plan.
> 
> You two praying had to be part of his plan also and really unneeded because he planned for that hitchiker to walk out when you drove by.
> 
> Making the both of you pray to him for something that he planned to happen anyway is just an ego stroke.
> 
> You and that hitchiker was gonna happen whether you wanted it to or not.
> 
> Neither of you really had a choice in it. You couldn't refuse it if you wanted to.


Bullet are you gay? Is walt as well? I thought this was a nonbelievers site not a gay site. If we were playing poker I would have lost all my money. Thanks for the lesson though.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> They will know God but not the details.



Can you provide us with evidence of this happening?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet are you gay? Is walt as well? I thought this was a nonbelievers site not a gay site. If we were playing poker I would have lost all my money. Thanks for the lesson though.



I am with the same woman since I am 15yrs old and am now 47.
Merely saying the word Gay or talking about being Gay does not make someone gay.
You mentioned about you being educated, when are you going to show it?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet are you gay? Is walt as well? I thought this was a nonbelievers site not a gay site. If we were playing poker I would have lost all my money. Thanks for the lesson though.



And why would this be your reply after what you quoted me as asking?

There are other sites you can use if you are curious about another's sexuality.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Ambush can you explain your avatar? A big amazon woman looking through a small door at a gay man?




He does look gay, doesn't he?


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Bullet are you gay? Is walt as well? I thought this was a nonbelievers site not a gay site. If we were playing poker I would have lost all my money. Thanks for the lesson though.





> Is walt as well?


Thanks for the interest but you're not my type.


----------



## welderguy

Anybody that sits in a yellow kayak with his socks on has got to be at least half gay....


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I am with the same woman since I am 15yrs...



Are you sure she's really a woman?????


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Anybody that sits in a yellow kayak with his socks on has got to be at least half gay....


Its yellow and red and orange. I like a brightly colored kayak as it is more noticeable on the water and helps avoid getting run over by some moron with more boat than brains.
And it looks bright and cheery and fabulous!
And I don't understand your fixation on me wearing socks. You've mentioned it a number of times.
Have you mentioned this to your therapist?


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Its yellow and red and orange. I like a brightly colored kayak as it is more noticeable on the water and helps avoid getting run over by some moron with more boat than brains.
> And it looks bright and cheery and fabulous!
> And I don't understand your fixation on me wearing socks. You've mentioned it a number of times.
> Have you mentioned this to your therapist?



Walt, it wouldn't matter to me if you sat in your kayak wearing nothing but a pink leotard, my esteem of you would not be scathed.

......well...maybe just a little.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Bullet are you gay? Is walt as well? I thought this was a nonbelievers site not a gay site. If we were playing poker I would have lost all my money. Thanks for the lesson though.



I can see how you might come to that position.  You associate non-belief with depravity and lack of morality.  It's no stretch to you that an atheist might easily venture into "Gay Land". 

This is one of the costs of your belief.  

Examine how your characterize people through the lens of your belief.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> I can see how you might come to that position.  You associate non-belief with depravity and lack of morality.  It's no stretch to you that an atheist might easily venture into "Gay Land".
> 
> This is one of the costs of your belief.
> 
> Examine how your characterize people through the lens of your belief.



I think this could be relative to the level of spiritual maturity. Don't you?
Remember, Jesus ate with publicans and sinners.


----------



## Artfuldodger

From a Christian perspective, would it be prideful of you to expect God to give every person salvation?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Are you sure she's really a woman?????



I don't have those same problems you do.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I think this could be relative to the level of spiritual maturity. Don't you?
> Remember, Jesus ate with publicans and sinners.



Jesus had an entourage of 12 guys around him constantly. 
Just sayin....


----------



## 660griz

ambush80 said:


> Do you want Revelation to come to pass right now?  Do you want to be in Heaven with God right now?  Is this world so sucky that you would wish Armageddon to come  as it was prophesied  as soon as possible?



Religion looks forward to the destruction of the world…. Perhaps half aware that its unsupported arguments are not entirely persuasive, and perhaps uneasy about its own greedy accumulation of temporal power and wealth, religion has never ceased to proclaim the Apocalypse and the day of judgment. 

If god really wanted people to be free of [wicked thoughts], he should have taken more care to invent a different species.
---Christopher Hitchens


----------



## 660griz

red neck richie said:


> This site has really become Gay? Gods plan>Gays.



I learned that very often the most intolerant and narrow-minded people are the ones who congratulate themselves on their tolerance and open-mindedness.
--Christopher Hitchens


----------



## Artfuldodger

I always find it interesting that when one defends gays they get accused of being gay. I know some of it on here is in jest though.

In general when one is debating about any topic, it's better to just defend your side instead of attacking the character of the person you are debating. I would consider that a weakness in one's defense of their side of the argument.

That being said I think Walt's kayak looks fabulous. I'm not too crazy about his sleeveless purple shirt though. I'm thinking he needs a trendy Under Armor shirt. Better yet a wet suit vest like Burt Reynolds wore in Deliverance.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> From a Christian perspective, would it be prideful of you to expect God to give every person salvation?



I believe so, if He has not given every person salvation.
Do you believe He has given every person salvation?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I don't believe God will give every person salvation. I think that sometimes we always want others to have what we have which we know isn't possible.

Like when someone takes a vacation, we want them to stay at the same place we did and eat in the same restaurants we ate at.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe God will give every person salvation. I think that sometimes we always want others to have what we have which we know isn't possible.
> 
> Like when someone takes a vacation, we want them to stay at the same place we did and eat in the same restaurants we ate at.



How do you determine who it's a possibility to?


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> How do you determine who it's a possibility to?



If one is called by the Holy Spirit, I don't need to know to whom it's a possibility. 

Besides, it's more than a possibility.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> If one is called by the Holy Spirit, I don't need to know to whom it's a possibility.
> 
> Besides, it's more than a possibility.



That's what I hoped you meant.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe God will give every person salvation. I think that sometimes we always want others to have what we have which we know isn't possible.
> 
> Like when someone takes a vacation, we want them to stay at the same place we did and eat in the same restaurants we ate at.



That's a very interesting take on things. Can we mine it?
Because I do believe it happens. I think we may be able to agree in some form that we understand that is not an uncommon _experience_.

And that's where that leads me, to these questions..."Is a thing truth because it happens?" or "Do things happen because there is truth?"


----------



## bullethead

Life on Earth is an expression of the available chemistry set.
Only what can happen does happen.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Life on Earth is an expression of the available chemistry set.
> Only what can happen does happen.



I would add that we don't know what _CAN_ happen everywhere.  We know what can happen as far as we can observe.  To speak about what we can't observe is.....Philosophy?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> And that's where that leads me, to these questions..."Is a thing truth because it happens?" or "Do things happen because there is truth?"



Using God and Jesus as the truth, I must say yes to both your questions.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Life on Earth is an expression of the available chemistry set.
> Only what can happen does happen.



True if all things in the formula are constant. You must include man as a variable in your formula. God is the only constant. I see the discussion goes on I thought after ambush and Walt came out of the closet it would scare you boys off.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> True if all things in the formula are constant. You must include man as a variable in your formula. God is the only constant. I see the discussion goes on I thought after ambush and Walt came out of the closet it would scare you boys off.


The formula has changed for 4.5 billion years. Man is just the current product.
God has been and is nowhere to be found. All I have seen so far is god is comprised of excuses from its believers.

I wouldn't throw rocks in glass closets. You worship a guy who ate, hung out and slept with 12 other guys for three years.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> The formula has changed for 4.5 billion years. Man is just the current product.
> God has been and is nowhere to be found. All I have seen so far is god is comprised of excuses from its believers.
> 
> I wouldn't throw rocks in glass closets. You worship a guy who ate, hung out and slept with 12 other guys for three years.



I'm not sure how expressing a different view from yours in an open forum is throwing rocks. Perhaps you take things too personally. But the whole rock throwing thing worked out pretty good for David.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I'm not sure how expressing a different view from yours in an open forum is throwing rocks. Perhaps you take things too personally. But the whole rock throwing thing worked out pretty good for David.


Its not about having different views.
You are throwing around insinuations about guys being gay and you worship someone who had an all male encourage for 3 years.

I dont take much personally, and especially what is said in here. But I will point out the hypocrisy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bullethead said:


> Its not about having different views.
> You are throwing around insinuations about guys being gay and you worship someone who had an all male encourage for 3 years.
> 
> I dont take much personally, and especially what is said in here. But I will point out the hypocrisy.



I think it was more like Jesus having an all male military. Personally I would have chosen 12 women.


----------



## bullethead

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it was more like Jesus having an all male military. Personally I would have chosen 12 women.



I would agree with the military thing if it wasnt for the fact that none of them put up any sort of fight.
Being that a light in the sandals lifestyle was frowned upon back then,  and believers think that some of his disciples actually wrote the gospels  so there is no wonder some intricate information was purposely left out.


----------



## bullethead

http://m.jpost.com/Christian-News/G...0QjJGQkU3MDBFMkI2REZGMEE5NUU5RTMxREIyOEFERjA=


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> With my mind I believe I know God, but that's not where my proof is(because we already agreed our minds fail us often.)
> 
> My spirit is what is 100% sure that I know Him. Somehow He has made Himself known of me. Don't ask me how because I cannot explain that part. It's not a wishful hoping, it's not a feeling, it's a sure knowing. This sure knowing is not my doing(I'm a skeptic by nature). It is my immovable standard that I navigate by, because my heart and my mind deviate almost constantly, so much that I don't trust them. But this inner knowing is steadfast and unshakable.



Now that we're almost 500 posts in, let's go back to this and see if there's anything to glean.

You know what the truth is but you don't how you know.  You think that you "sense" the truth with a mysterious organ called the Spirit which you don't understand and can't describe.  

I would say that you still don't know anything about the truth, even if by some chance it aligns with what you think it might be. 

When you speak about the truth in this context you reveal, by your own admission, that you don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> No you can not wrap your mind around the supernatural or the spirit, therefore you cant understand. You cannot fathom that there is a higher power because you let what you understand dictate your thoughts.



"You let what you understand dictate your thoughts".

What else is there?

Have you had any insights on your belief after all this conversation?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Now that we're almost 500 posts in, let's go back to this and see if there's anything to glean.
> 
> You know what the truth is but you don't how you know.  You think that you "sense" the truth with a mysterious organ called the Spirit which you don't understand and can't describe.
> 
> I would say that you still don't know anything about the truth, even if by some chance it aligns with what you think it might be.
> 
> When you speak about the truth in this context you reveal, by your own admission, that you don't know what you're talking about.



I didn't expect you to believe my faith, I just like to tell people about it.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I didn't expect you to believe my faith, I just like to tell people about it.



I like when you tell people about it, too.  Hopefully, a few of the readers will recognize it for what it is.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> I like when you tell people about it, too.  Hopefully, a few of the readers will recognize it for what it is.



The same sun that hardens clay, also softens butter.
To me, it's good either way.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I didn't expect you to believe my faith, I just like to tell people about it.



I recognize it to be a way for you to atone for your prior deeds. I hope that helps you and would be glad for you if it does help you.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> The same sun that hardens clay, also softens butter.
> To me, it's good either way.



Sunlight is the best disinfectant.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> I recognize it to be a way for you to atone for your prior deeds. I hope that helps you and would be glad for you if it does help you.



I'm all for things that make people better.  I'm more for  things that make people better, better.

(I hope Ritchie doesn't think this picture is too gay.)


----------



## bullethead

It is human nature to desire to believe and trust and like water it takes the path of least resistance.  Unfortunately that is why it is so easy to be taken advantage of, the need and want to believe allows an individual to not only be duped but actually defend the one that dupes them.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Sunlight is the best disinfectant.



 ... Sunshine almost always makes me high...

.....at least that's what John Denver says


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> ?? ... Sunshine almost always makes me high...??



Enjoy it while you can. The bulb in your Easy Bake oven is slowly dimming.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Enjoy it while you can. The bulb in your Easy Bake oven is slowly dimming.



Yeah, ever since I put GI Joe in there to warm him up after his Arctic reconnaissance mission, the Easy Bake hasn't done so well. 

I miss those little muffins too.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> I'm all for things that make people better.  I'm more for  things that make people better, better.
> 
> (I hope Ritchie doesn't think this picture is too gay.)



Not at all I'm a fan of Roger. I admire his grit.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> "You let what you understand dictate your thoughts".
> 
> What else is there?
> 
> Have you had any insights on your belief after all this conversation?



Spirit. You listen to your mind not your spirit. Yes I have thanks for asking. I have been in daily prayer. Praying for you that God shows you what you need to see to know the truth. But even if he doesn't through your doubt my personal relationship is stronger than ever. So thanks for that.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Yeah, ever since I put GI Joe in there to warm him up after his Arctic reconnaissance mission, the Easy Bake hasn't done so well.
> 
> I miss those little muffins too.



Pray for someone to say "let there be another light".
This one is on it's  way out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> ... Sunshine almost always makes me high...
> 
> .....at least that's what John Denver says



"Far out!"


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Pray for someone to say "let there be another light".
> This one is on it's  way out.



I don't think that's necessary. Since I've seen the true Light, all other lights are just too dim.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I don't think that's necessary. Since I've seen the true Light, all other lights are just too dim.



Welder, the Sun. You have brought up the sun and we have been talking about the sun all along.
This is why you are too far past the edge of reality. As soon as you get lost in conversation you go fetal position in your religious happy place.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, the Sun. You have brought up the sun and we have been talking about the sun all along.
> This is why you are too far past the edge of reality. As soon as you get lost in conversation you go fetal position in your religious happy place.



Ooooooohh. You're still talking about the big ball of fire in the sky. I thought we had moved past that to things more figurative.
I'll wait here, until you can catch up.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Ooooooohh. You're still talking about the big ball of fire in the sky. I thought we had moved past that to things more figurative.
> I'll wait here, until you can catch up.


Welder, welder, welder,...
Because you deal in "figurative" you think that you are standing on the starting line waiting for others to catch up. In reality that starting line you are stuck on is the finish line to everyone else. We have led the race the entire time by using Literal cars while you are still waiting for a Figurative car to come off the Figurative trailor that was built in a Figurative shop. The interviews are already over and we are headed to the next track.
We all have heard how fast and powerful this figurative car you have is but reality shows you standing on a starting line in a jumpsuit full of patches from make believe sponsors. You make engine noises with your mouth but have no car to drive.
Keep waiting for me.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, welder, welder,...
> Because you deal in "figurative" you think that you are standing on the starting line waiting for others to catch up. In reality that starting line you are stuck on is the finish line to everyone else. We have led the race the entire time by using Literal cars while you are still waiting for a Figurative car to come off the Figurative trailor that was built in a Figurative shop. The interviews are already over and we are headed to the next track.
> We all have heard how fast and powerful this figurative car you have is but reality shows you standing on a starting line in a jumpsuit full of patches from make believe sponsors. You make engine noises with your mouth but have no car to drive.
> Keep waiting for me.



I didn't know you were a NASCAR fan!!
Thought only us southern rednecks cared about that.

Maybe there's hope for you after all !!


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I didn't know you were a NASCAR fan!!
> Thought only us southern rednecks cared about that.
> 
> Maybe there's hope for you after all !!


I'm not a fan.
Never even watched a full race on tv.
But,like everything else I do, I educate myself enough to know what I am talking about.
You should try it.

(Pocono is 30 miles from me)


----------



## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> I'm not a fan.
> Never even watched a full race on tv.
> But,like everything else I do, I educate myself enough to know what I am talking about.
> You should try it.
> 
> (Pocono is 30 miles from me)





> Never even watched a full race on tv.


Me either. About 3 minutes of watching cars go around in a circle is all I can tolerate.


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> Me either. About 3 minutes of watching cars go around in a circle is all I can tolerate.



I may have made it to the second commercial break a few times at the beginning of a race.
And I have stayed interested for the last five laps at the end of a race.
I have no problem with all the fans who really like it. It is just not my thing.
Years ago I had an epiphany.  I gave up getting elated or upset from watching  professionals getting paid millions of dollars to play kids games or hobbies. I respect their dedication and talent but at the end of the day, win or lose, I don't get a ring or trophy..I still have to get up in the morning and earn a living. I save money on remote controls now too. Lolol


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Spirit. You listen to your mind not your spirit. Yes I have thanks for asking. I have been in daily prayer. Praying for you that God shows you what you need to see to know the truth. But even if he doesn't through your doubt my personal relationship is stronger than ever. So thanks for that.



Tell me everything you know about the spirit.


----------



## welderguy

The Spirit causes a man to long for something that is not of this world...

...And also lose interest in many things that are of this world.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> The Spirit causes a man to long for something that is not of this world...
> 
> ...And also lose interest in many things that are of this world.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> The Spirit causes a man to long for something that is not of this world...
> 
> ...And also lose interest in many things that are of this world.



What is it?  What is it made of?  How much does it weigh?  Where is it located?  How does it work?  How can you test for it?


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


>



I'm giving Welder and Ritchie the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe they can demonstrate that they know what they're talking about.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> I'm giving Welder and Ritchie the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe they can demonstrate that they know what they're talking about.



Yeah I realize what you are trying to accomplish.  
Based on their unwillingness and inability to do so throughout this whole discussion already led me to to jump the gun.
I'll let you pluck this chicken for a while.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Tell me everything you know about the spirit.



Google it. I could tell you but you wont listen anyway. Round and round we go where it stops me and welder know. Walt, Ambush. Bullet y'all don't like NASCAR racing I'm shocked. I would also be shocked to find out y'all weren't conservative republicans.


----------



## centerpin fan

ambush80 said:


> Now that we're almost 500 posts in, let's go back to this and see if there's anything to glean.
> 
> You know what the truth is but you don't how you know.  You think that you "sense" the truth with a mysterious organ called the Spirit which you don't understand and can't describe.
> 
> I would say that you still don't know anything about the truth, even if by some chance it aligns with what you think it might be.
> 
> When you speak about the truth in this context you reveal, by your own admission, that you don't know what you're talking about.



I haven't really been following this thread, but I hope somebody has posted the obligatory Jack Nicholson clip.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Google it. I could tell you but you wont listen anyway. Round and round we go where it stops me and welder know. Walt, Ambush. Bullet y'all don't like NASCAR racing I'm shocked. I would also be shocked to find out y'all weren't conservative republicans.


There is no need to be shocked when the information is at your disposal.
Instead of reading one source and basing all of your information (and beliefs) off of that one source  just do some research.

I get the feeling you feel better guessing rather than knowing.


----------



## bullethead

centerpin fan said:


> I haven't really been following this thread, but I hope somebody has posted the obligatory Jack Nicholson clip.


People don't  always want to know the truth.
The truth got Col. Jessup locked up.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> I'm giving Welder and Ritchie the benefit of the doubt.  Maybe they can demonstrate that they know what they're talking about.



Based on what you said here...:

Quote ambush80 "I like when you tell people about it, too. Hopefully, a few of the readers will recognize it for what it is."

....it sounds like you already think you have all your answers.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Google it. I could tell you but you wont listen anyway. Round and round we go where it stops me and welder know. Walt, Ambush. Bullet y'all don't like NASCAR racing I'm shocked. I would also be shocked to find out y'all weren't conservative republicans.



I want to hear what you think.  I've listened to everything you've said.  Are you getting the impression that I'm not absorbing the information that you've shared?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Based on what you said here...:
> 
> Quote ambush80 "I like when you tell people about it, too. Hopefully, a few of the readers will recognize it for what it is."
> 
> ....it sounds like you already think you have all your answers.



Then surprise me.  

I thought you like sharing your spiritual wisdom with everybody.  Lay it on me.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Then surprise me.
> 
> I thought you like sharing your spiritual wisdom with everybody.  Lay it on me.



I said I like telling people about my faith. Didn't say anything about having wisdom.
Matter of fact someone said my replies were "juvenile", and I don't know how to research.

But yet, here we are yet again.

...reminds me of that movie Groundhog Day, with Bill Murray.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> I want to hear what you think.  I've listened to everything you've said.  Are you getting the impression that I'm not absorbing the information that you've shared?



Then whose spirit do you really want to hear about? The Holy spirit, your spirit ,my spirit ? Bullets spirit? It is the same thing as your soul. But if you don't believe you have one why explain? I cant tell if your seriously interested of playing games?


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Then whose spirit do you really want to hear about? The Holy spirit, your spirit ,my spirit ? Bullets spirit? It is the same thing as your soul. But if you don't believe you have one why explain? I cant tell if your seriously interested of playing games?



I'm serious.  These questions have been asked from the beginning of mankind.  There are ways to find out if something is true or not.  They often involve proof or explanation.  Can you give any?


----------



## welderguy

red neck richie said:


> Then whose spirit do you really want to hear about? The Holy spirit, your spirit ,my spirit ? Bullets spirit? It is the same thing as your soul. But if you don't believe you have one why explain? I cant tell if your seriously interested of playing games?



They are seriously interested in playing games. I assure you.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> I'm serious.  These questions have been asked from the beginning of mankind.  There are ways to find out if something is true or not.  They often involve proof or explanation.  Can you give any?



Kind of like the OJ trial. Everybody knows he did it but you are not satisfied with the evidence. Matthew 11: 1-7. But you don't believe the bible to be true. Just like if the glove don't fit you must acquit.


----------



## bullethead

The POINT of apologetics is having the ability to explain yourself, your beliefs, your experiences, your assertions and claims in ways that are relatable to the non religious.
Apologists posess that ability and that is why there is a forum for it.
You either have it or you don't but do not be so  disingenous to come into and Atheists, Agnostics and Apologetics specific forum and
expect to not to be grilled about your broken record unprovable claims.
The constant biblical verses and baseless preaching to the choir is a few floors up where the real disagreements happen.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> They are seriously interested in playing games. I assure you.



That's pretty smug and a bit condescending.  I don't mind.  I just wanted to bring it to your attention if you didn't know it.  You imply that I don't truly care about these things that we discuss.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Kind of like the OJ trial. Everybody knows he did it but you are not satisfied with the evidence. Matthew 11: 1-7. But you don't believe the bible to be true. Just like if the glove don't fit you must acquit.




That's right.  It's your job to prove what you claim.  It's your task.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  It's your job to prove what you claim.  It's your task.



As a believer I got frustrated trying to explain things to myself.
These guys know they have nothing that backs up their claims. They are just in too deep and too dishonest to admit it. It's not intentional, it is a reflex reaction until they come to terms with reality.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> The POINT of apologetics is having the ability to explain yourself, your beliefs, your experiences, your assertions and claims in ways that are relatable to the non religious.
> Apologists posess that ability and that is why there is a forum for it.
> You either have it or you don't but do not be so  disingenous to come into and Atheists, Agnostics and Apologetics specific forum and
> expect to not to be grilled about your broken record unprovable claims.
> The constant biblical verses and baseless preaching to the choir is a few floors up where the real disagreements happen.



It is explained you just don't believe the explanation. Call it what ever you like in mans terminology. I'm not interested in that. I am however interested in salvation. I know why I even care . My mind is telling me not to waste my time but my spirit is telling me you must try. Who do I listen to? Well my spirit of course. I'm naturally hard headed as are many of you but I have learned how to let go and trust in God. I have a peace in my spirit that is so comforting. I want each and everyone of you to know my Father. This is why I care. I may never change you mind or make you see the truth But as my brothers you are worth the fight.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> It is explained you just don't believe the explanation. Call it what ever you like in mans terminology. I'm not interested in that. I am however interested in salvation. I know why I even care . My mind is telling me not to waste my time but my spirit is telling me you must try. Who do I listen to? Well my spirit of course. I'm naturally hard headed as are many of you but I have learned how to let go and trust in God. I have a peace in my spirit that is so comforting. I want each and everyone of you to know my Father. This is why I care. I may never change you mind or make you see the truth But as my brothers you are worth the fight.



Ask your spirit to give you some facts that are undeniable.
Ask your spirit to throw you a bone that would stand up in a courtroom.

If your explanations were worthy nobody could deny them.

Is this honestly the best you've got?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Then surprise me.



What proof can you give me that there is no afterlife?


----------



## bullethead

Richie you can change our minds quickly, just try backing up your claims with facts and evidence.


----------



## red neck richie

welderguy said:


> They are seriously interested in playing games. I assure you.



Good looking out Welder I appreciate it. But when God puts a calling on my heart I have learned to listen. It may be futile but its well worth a shot in the dark.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> What proof can you give me that there is no afterlife?



Who said there is no afterlife?
I personally dont know if there is or isn't,  but I am not so arrogant to tell anyone details about something that I not only know nothing about, but cannot back up when I claim that I do.
How does one narrow down an afterlife when they have not stopped living?
Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence.
If you make one we expect the other.
If what you say is true it cannot be a problem to back up.


----------



## welderguy

red neck richie said:


> Good looking out Welder I appreciate it. But when God puts a calling on my heart I have learned to listen. It may be futile but its well worth a shot in the dark.



I understand that calling.
I feel like David many times when he said "Is there not a cause?!!"


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Good looking out Welder I appreciate it. But when God puts a calling on my heart I have learned to listen. It may be futile but its well worth a shot in the dark.



So God is telling you to do this and you are unable to do it any way that is truthful or even convincing.
He is either unwilling to provide you with the skills, or incapable of helping you, or non existent.
Ask him which.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I understand that calling.
> I feel like David many times when he said "Is there not a cause?!!"



I feel like Foghorn Leghorn when he said " stop it boy, you are doing a lot of chopping but no chips are flying"


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Who said there is no afterlife?
> I personally dont know if there is or isn't,  but I am not so arrogant to tell anyone details about something that I not only know nothing about, but cannot back up when I claim that I do.
> How does one narrow down an afterlife when they have not stopped living?
> Extraordinary claims require Extraordinary evidence.
> If you make one we expect the other.
> If what you say is true it cannot be a problem to back up.



If you are open to the possibility of an afterlife, why did you reply with this:

""


...when I said this ?:

"The Spirit causes a man to long for something that's not of this world...
....and to lose interest in many things that are of this world."


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If you are open to the possibility of an afterlife, why did you reply with this:
> 
> ""
> 
> 
> ...when I said this ?:
> 
> 
> "The Spirit causes a man to long for something that's not of this world...
> ....and to lose interest in many things that are of this world."


Because you have been unable to back any of it up.
You talk about a spirit and cannot back it up with anything.
Since your first post in this entire forum your only constant is your inability to back up every single claim you made.
Isnt it about time you get that spirit to help you out? Or realize that it's just you having a tea party around an empty table.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> So God is telling you to do this and you are unable to do it any way that is truthful or even convincing.
> He is either unwilling to provide you with the skills, or incapable of helping you, or non existent.
> Ask him which.



No need to ask my questions have been answered. I am praying for him to tell you. You are the one in doubt. Remember I have received my proof you have not. Maybe this is what angers you be patient.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> No need to ask my questions have been answered. I am praying for him to tell you. You are the one in doubt. Remember I have received my proof you have not. Maybe this is what angers you be patient.


Hard to believe a god would change his mind or plan from a prayer.
You are asking a god to do your will.
Bad mojo richie.

Hollywood Liberals anger me.
Anti 2nd Amendment protestors anger me.
Pelosi, Schumer and the likes anger me.
Guys who cannot back up their claims and instead make excuses entertain me.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Because you have been unable to back any of it up.
> You talk about a spirit and cannot back it up with anything.
> Since your first post in this entire forum your only constant is your inability to back up every single claim you made.
> Isnt it about time you get that spirit to help you out? Or realize that it's just you having a tea party around an empty table.



That's pure balogni.
The reason you posted your little facepalm emoji is because you are not open to the possibility of an afterlife. You don't fool anyone. 
As a matter of fact, I remember about a year ago you told me you believed when this life is over that's it.nothing else.(I can find it if you need proof)

You keep telling us we're dishonest, but you may need to check yourself.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> That's pure balogni.
> The reason you posted your little facepalm emoji is because you are not open to the possibility of an afterlife. You don't fool anyone.
> As a matter of fact, I remember about a year ago you told me you believed when this life is over that's it.nothing else.(I can find it if you need proof)
> 
> You keep telling us we're dishonest, but you may need to check yourself.


Sure I said that, I have seen zero evidence otherwise. 
I'm open to an afterlife.
No idea if it is reincarnation, a thousand yard shooting range with unlimited ammo and weapons or recycled worm poop that helps someone grow a flower.
All the evidence I have seen points to worm poop.
I dont remember anything before I was born and I dont think (not know) I'll  know of anything after im dead.
I hope my impact while here allows a positive memory of me to continue with my friends and family and aquaintances.

If my actions on earth dictate my afterlife I am a shoe in.

If I have to narrow down one specific set of ancient rules to follow then I choose worm poop until I see evidence otherwise.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Hard to believe a god would change his mind or plan from a prayer.
> You are asking a god to do your will.
> Bad mojo richie.
> 
> Hollywood Liberals anger me.
> Anti 2nd Amendment protestors anger me.
> Pelosi, Schumer and the likes anger me.
> Guys who cannot back up their claims and instead make excuses entertain me.



I would say 3 out of 4 aint bad. But your confused on the most important one. Sound like we are two peas in a pod except I don't live without God. If it is his will it will be done. But he does hear our prayers. And will answer them in accordance to the plan. I'm glad at least I'm entertaining to you. It is not my intent to anger you. I'm just hoping something I say brings you back.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Sure I said that, I have seen zero evidence otherwise.
> I'm open to an afterlife.
> No idea if it is reincarnation, a thousand yard shooting range with unlimited ammo and weapons or recycled worm poop that helps someone grow a flower.
> All the evidence I have seen points to worm poop.
> I dont remember anything before I was born and I dont think (not know) I'll  know of anything after im dead.
> I hope my impact while here allows a positive memory of me to continue with my friends and family and aquaintances.
> 
> If my actions on earth dictate my afterlife I am a shoe in.
> 
> If I have to narrow down one specific set of ancient rules to follow then I choose worm poop until I see evidence otherwise.



And I believe there's a heaven.
I don't get proof from you that all there is after death is worm poop.
And you don't get proof from me that there is heaven.

I could demand that proof from you, and you wouldn't be able to give it.
See how that works?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> What proof can you give me that there is no afterlife?



The same proof I can give you that there are no Unicorns.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> And I believe there's a heaven.
> I don't get proof from you that all there is after death is worm poop.
> And you don't get proof from me that there is heaven.
> 
> I could demand that proof from you, and you wouldn't be able to give it.
> See how that works?


Now see you are not being realistic. I CAN show you dead bodies in various stages of decomposition. 
I am realistic and factual right up to and including the point where flesh is broken down to a point where it is gone.

I could then make up some ridiculous story about a part of a being that may or may not exist (soul) and what happens to it after death (if anything) and tell you in detail about where I NEED it to go (some fantasy land) in order to face my own mortality.
But the truth is that I Do Not Know.
And you do not know any more than I do.
You just pretend to so you can deal with it.

You are making the extraordinary claims welder. You need to provide the evidence that backs them up.

See Ambush's reply above.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> The same proof I can give you that there are no Unicorns.



I'm gonna need you to prove to me that there are no unicorns.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I'm gonna need you to prove to me that there are no unicorns.



The first thing you have ever proved on here is your delusion.
Great job.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Now see you are not being realistic. I CAN show you dead bodies in various stages of decomposition.
> I am realistic and factual right up to and including the point where flesh is broken down to a point where it is gone.
> 
> I could then make up some ridiculous story about a part of a being that may or may not exist (soul) and what happens to it after death (if anything) and tell you in detail about where I NEED it to go (some fantasy land) in order to face my own mortality.
> But the truth is that I Do Not Know.
> And you do not know any more than I do.
> You just pretend to so you can deal with it.
> 
> You are making the extraordinary claims welder. You need to provide the evidence that backs them up.
> 
> See Ambush's reply above.



Showing a decomposed body doesn't disprove an afterlife. It only shows that something died.

Try again.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> I'm gonna need you to prove to me that there are no unicorns.



I can't....but, really?

Go around telling people that you believe in unicorns because they can't be proven not to exist.  Wear that around for a while and see how it feels.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Showing a decomposed body doesn't disprove an afterlife. It only shows that something died.
> 
> Try again.


Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents "a lack of contrary evidence"), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proved false (or vice versa). This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that: there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove  the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
1. true
2. false
3 .unknown between true or false
4. being unknowable (among the first three).
In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof


----------



## welderguy

My point is you can't see unicorns any more than you see God, but you don't spend all day every day arguing the non-existence of unicorns. There seems to be a difference in the underlying agenda.
In other words, when you say "I'm open to the possibility", we're not seeing that openness.


----------



## 660griz

welderguy said:


> My point is you can't see unicorns any more than you see God, but you don't spend all day every day arguing the non-existence of unicorns. There seems to be a difference in the underlying agenda.



I have never had anyone come up to me and state that they live their life based on a conversation with a unicorn or a book the unicorn wrote.

We don't have laws based on what the unicorn said. Nobody starts wars or kills folks to please the unicorn...that I know of. 

I don't spend all day every day. I come here every once in awhile to hopefully help people.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> My point is you can't see unicorns any more than you see God, but you don't spend all day every day arguing the non-existence of unicorns. There seems to be a difference in the underlying agenda.
> In other words, when you say "I'm open to the possibility", we're not seeing that openness.


So lets see, you are using an argument from ignorance and its our fault that we reject it.
Because we aren't "open to it".


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> My point is you can't see unicorns any more than you see God, but you don't spend all day every day arguing the non-existence of unicorns. There seems to be a difference in the underlying agenda.
> In other words, when you say "I'm open to the possibility", we're not seeing that openness.



I'm open to the possibility of Unicorns existing somewhere.  What can I give you other than my word?

But MUCH more importantly is this:



660griz said:


> I have never had anyone come up to me and state that they live their life based on a conversation with a unicorn or a book the unicorn wrote.
> 
> We don't have laws based on what the unicorn said. Nobody starts wars or kills folks to please the unicorn...that I know of.
> 
> I don't spend all day every day. I come here every once in awhile to hopefully help people.



I want to help, too.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> So lets see, you are using an argument from ignorance and its our fault that we reject it.
> Because we aren't "open to it".



So why tell people you are open to it then. Why don't you be more open about your un-openness?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> I'm open to the possibility of Unicorns existing somewhere.  What can I give you other than my word?
> 
> But MUCH more importantly is this:
> 
> 
> 
> I want to help, too.



How do you know you're helping and not actually hurting?
If you say you're open to the existence of unicorns, but then turn around and constantly discredit the possibility they exist to a believer in unicorns, how is that helping?

Sounds to me that you're talking out both sides of your mouth.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Showing a decomposed body doesn't disprove an afterlife. It only shows that something died.
> 
> Try again.


Welder, no shakkaka.

The decomposing body is as far as I can go and be accurate. Anything more from me or you is just a guess.
And THAT is the point that you cannot seem to grasp.


----------



## welderguy

660griz said:


> I have never had anyone come up to me and state that they live their life based on a conversation with a unicorn or a book the unicorn wrote.
> 
> We don't have laws based on what the unicorn said. Nobody starts wars or kills folks to please the unicorn...that I know of.
> 
> I don't spend all day every day. I come here every once in awhile to hopefully help people.



With the exception of the killing folks part, why are the other things you mentioned so bad?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> How do you know you're helping and not actually hurting?
> If you say you're open to the existence of unicorns, but then turn around and constantly discredit the possibility they exist to a believer in unicorns, how is that helping?
> 
> Sounds to me that you're talking out both sides of your mouth.


Because we are able to look at both sides objectively and argue points against to narrow what is more likely or not to be true.
All these things you try to use as facts we have already debunked them long ago and we hope that you, richie or any one of the other 2 billion believers can come up with something that knocks our socks off.
But so far....nada.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> So why tell people you are open to it then. Why don't you be more open about your un-openness?


Its almost a miracle the way you consistently miss the point. 
1. You are using an argument from ignorance.
2. We recognize that. 
3. You don't recognize that. (even though I already gave you the definition of it)
4. Due to the fact that it is an argument from ignorance, it is therefore rejected.
5. What we are "open to or not open to" plays absolutely no part in it. 
6. Your argument is the problem but you seem to be unwilling or unable to recognize that.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, no shakkaka.
> 
> The decomposing body is as far as I can go and be accurate. Anything more from me or you is just a guess.
> And THAT is the point that you cannot seem to grasp.



Sure. That's fine, but don't come in here under the false impression that you're open to it, when you openly and plainly reject it. It's not so much a dishonesty toward me that's the issue, but the being dishonest to your self.


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> Its almost a miracle the way you consistently miss the point.
> 1. You are using an argument from ignorance.
> 2. We recognize that.
> 3. You don't recognize that. (even though I already gave you the definition of it)
> 4. Due to the fact that it is an argument from ignorance, it is therefore rejected.
> 5. What we are "open to or not open to" plays absolutely no part in it.
> 6. Your argument is the problem but you seem to be unwilling or unable to recognize that.



That's your opinion.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> That's your opinion.


I gave you the definition of argument from ignorance.
That wasn't my opinion.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Because we are able to look at both sides objectively and argue points against to narrow what is more likely or not to be true.
> All these things you try to use as facts we have already debunked them long ago and we hope that you, richie or any one of the other 2 billion believers can come up with something that knocks our socks off.
> But so far....nada.



If there were 500+ eyewitnesses that came forth and said they saw a mermaid off the coast of Florida, you would want to find out how all 500 saw the exact same thing and testified the same thing.

But yet there were 500+ eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection. You reject that testimony. Don't you think they investigated the testimonies in that day with scrutiny over such a miraculous claim? You know they did.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If there were 500+ eyewitnesses that came forth and said they saw a mermaid off the coast of Florida, you would want to find out how all 500 saw the exact same thing and testified the same thing.
> 
> But yet there were 500+ eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection. You reject that testimony. Don't you think they investigated the testimonies in that day with scrutiny over such a miraculous claim? You know they did.



OYG,
you are stuck in the same debunked rut and instead of taking the help you are given you just floor the accelerator digging yourself deeper.

NOWHERE except the bible are any of those witnesses mentioned. 
NOBODY outside of the bible mentioned it. It is recorded NOWHERE else in Jewish or Roman history.

Yes welder they did investigate miraculous claims. 
They did not invesigate 500 witnesses to a resurrection because no resurrection took place.

Your argument of ignorance is only surpassed by your willingness of ignorance.

You keep bringing up the very things you have been shown are incorrect over and over and over. It is borderline insanity.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> That's your opinion.



You are incapable of knowing the difference between definition and opinion, how can we accept your knowledge of anything else?


----------



## 660griz

welderguy said:


> With the exception of the killing folks part, why are the other things you mentioned so bad?



Is Sharia law bad?
Is dancing bad?
Should the only reason you act nice be because you fear h3!!?
Should you celebrate the end of the world and long for it to get here sooner? 
Teaching kids we just popped up rather than evolution, bad?
"Mother Teresa said that suffering was a gift from God. She spent her life opposing the only known cure for poverty, which is the empowerment of women and the emancipation of them from a livestock version of compulsory reproduction." --C. Hitchens

I could go on. There is very little good.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If there were 500+ eyewitnesses that came forth and said they saw a mermaid off the coast of Florida, you would want to find out how all 500 saw the exact same thing and testified the same thing.
> 
> But yet there were 500+ eyewitnesses of Jesus' resurrection. You reject that testimony. Don't you think they investigated the testimonies in that day with scrutiny over such a miraculous claim? You know they did.


Welder I want you to explain to me in detail about Who investigated these 500 witnesses, where it was recorded, and what their testimony said.


----------



## bullethead

http://www.skepdic.com/resurrection.html

Read on welder,  please read on.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> How do you know you're helping and not actually hurting?
> If you say you're open to the existence of unicorns, but then turn around and constantly discredit the possibility they exist to a believer in unicorns, how is that helping?
> 
> Sounds to me that you're talking out both sides of your mouth.



I'm not talking out of both sides of my mouth.  How else can I get you to believe me that I accept that Unicorns might exist somewhere?  How many times do I have to say that?  Do I operate as if they exist?  No, and for the EXACT same reasons that you don't either.  

So do you believe in Unicorns; not just accept that they might exist somewhere, but you truly believe they exist, and do you base your actions on the wishes of Unicorns?

What would you say to someone who said that they hear the Unicorn talking to them in their spirit and it tells them what to do?  What if they told you they asked the Unicorn to tell them how to vote or what job to take or what school to send their kids to?  Wouldn't you want to help them?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> OYG,
> you are stuck in the same debunked rut and instead of taking the help you are given you just floor the accelerator digging yourself deeper.
> 
> NOWHERE except the bible are any of those witnesses mentioned.
> NOBODY outside of the bible mentioned it. It is recorded NOWHERE else in Jewish or Roman history.
> 
> Yes welder they did investigate miraculous claims.
> They did not invesigate 500 witnesses to a resurrection because no resurrection took place.
> 
> Your argument of ignorance is only surpassed by your willingness of ignorance.
> 
> You keep bringing up the very things you have been shown are incorrect over and over and over. It is borderline insanity.



Bullet why are you so quick not to believe eye witness testimony? Both in the Bible and by millions of Christians today. It is admissible evidence in any court to determine the truth of what happened. Yet you don't even consider their testimony to be true. This is the main thing I don't understand about your position.


----------



## bullethead

http://www.lchr.org/a/41/pn/500witnesses.htm
500 eyewitnesses, unconfirmed and inconsistent


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Bullet why are you so quick not to believe eye witness testimony? Both in the Bible and by millions of Christians today. It is admissible evidence in any court to determine the truth of what happened. Yet you don't even consider their testimony to be true. This is the main thing I don't understand about your position.



If I may,  the testimonies I have heard from "millions of Christians today" are no more compelling than the testimonies of UFO abductees or people who have seen ghosts.  I'm more compelled by testimonies that relate a supernatural occurrence involving physical matter:  An object like a car passing through another object undamaged (video would be excellent), Stigmata, or recordings of demonic possession; something real, not merely "I got a felling" or "I heard a voice".  

Even then, almost all of such evidence points to a hoax or 
a misunderstanding of what actually happened.

And to the question that you and Welder avoid: What to make of the testimony of those that have had experiences and give testimony that they claim points to a God different than yours?  Can we stay on that issue for at least 15 posts?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet why are you so quick not to believe eye witness testimony? Both in the Bible and by millions of Christians today. It is admissible evidence in any court to determine the truth of what happened. Yet you don't even consider their testimony to be true. This is the main thing I don't understand about your position.



Name one court that accepts any of that as proof that a god exists.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet why are you so quick not to believe eye witness testimony? Both in the Bible and by millions of Christians today. It is admissible evidence in any court to determine the truth of what happened. Yet you don't even consider their testimony to be true. This is the main thing I don't understand about your position.


By your standards  Elvis is still alive.
Why hasn't the courts announced that Elvis is pulling a fast one on the public and has faked his own death?


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Name one court that accepts any of that as proof that a god exists.



Also:  

https://agora.stanford.edu/sjls/Issue One/fisher&tversky.htm

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-the-eyes-have-it/

http://www.livescience.com/16194-crime-eyewitnesses-mistakes.html

http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr06/eyewitness.aspx


Who you gonna believe?  Me or your lyin' eyes?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> By your standards  Elvis is still alive.
> Why hasn't the courts announced that Elvis is pulling a fast one on the public and has faked his own death?



Let me give you an example. When I get back to deer camp the boys say did you see anything? If I tell them I saw a big eight point you better believe they will hunt my stand. When I go out fishing they ask did you catch anything? I tell them I located a school of stripers busting the surface and give them the location they will go fish there. Even though they did not witness these things themselves. They believe me why would I lie. Is it just a trust issue with you or what? I'm not saying there are not people out there that make things up. But so many eyewitness's with the same accounts come on.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Name one court that accepts any of that as proof that a god exists.



Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God? With your right hand on the Bible.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Let me give you an example. When I get back to deer camp the boys say did you see anything? If I tell them I saw a big eight point you better believe they will hunt my stand. When I go out fishing they ask did you catch anything? I tell them I located a school of stripers busting the surface and give them the location they will go fish there. Even though they did not witness these things themselves. They believe me why would I lie. Is it just a trust issue with you or what? I'm not saying there are not people out there that make things up. But so many eyewitness's with the same accounts come on.



You're not talking about stuff that everybody knows is real.  If I told you that I foul hooked the Loch Ness Monster at Clarks Bridge in Lake Lanier would you believe me?  What if I showed you the rod he snapped in half?  How about if I showed you the tooth marks in my hull?  How about a picture I took with my phone as he sounded, clearly showing what appears to be a giant pectoral fin?  What if I told you I believe it with all my heart?

Would you believe that there is a Loch Ness Monster in lake Lanier?  I'd go check it out.  Lots of people might.  Some of them will see it.

And to the question that you and Welder avoid: What to make of the testimony of those that have had experiences and give testimony that they claim points to a God different than yours? Can we stay on that issue for at least 15 posts?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God? With your right hand on the Bible.



You didn't answer my question.

Ill make it even more simple.
Tell us which court accepted that type of proof and declared your god as real.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> If I may,  the testimonies I have heard from "millions of Christians today" are no more compelling than the testimonies of UFO abductees or people who have seen ghosts.  I'm more compelled by testimonies that relate a supernatural occurrence involving physical matter:  An object like a car passing through another object undamaged (video would be excellent), Stigmata, or recordings of demonic possession; something real, not merely "I got a felling" or "I heard a voice".
> 
> Even then, almost all of such evidence points to a hoax or
> a misunderstanding of what actually happened.
> 
> And to the question that you and Welder avoid: What to make of the testimony of those that have had experiences and give testimony that they claim points to a God different than yours?  Can we stay on that issue for at least 15 posts?



I have answered this question before. If I saw a ufo I would have said that if I saw a unicorn I would have said that. I only have reference to what I have witnessed and experienced.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> I have answered this question before. If I saw a ufo I would have said that if I saw a unicorn I would have said that. I only have reference to what I have witnessed and experienced.



So do you believe them like I should believe you?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Let me give you an example. When I get back to deer camp the boys say did you see anything? If I tell them I saw a big eight point you better believe they will hunt my stand. When I go out fishing they ask did you catch anything? I tell them I located a school of stripers busting the surface and give them the location they will go fish there. Even though they did not witness these things themselves. They believe me why would I lie. Is it just a trust issue with you or what? I'm not saying there are not people out there that make things up. But so many eyewitness's with the same accounts come on.


Do the same guys flock to your stand when you tell them that a gaggle of bigfeets use the trail nearby?
How many of your buddies cast lines at your favorite  'Nesse hotspot?

Yes, I have a trust issue with you.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I have answered this question before. If I saw a ufo I would have said that if I saw a unicorn I would have said that. I only have reference to what I have witnessed and experienced.



Then why do you dismiss others for what they have experienced and expect us to believe you?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> So do you believe them like I should believe you?



I'm not about to tell you who or what to believe. I am telling you what I believe and why I believe it. You are the one in search of answers I have found mine. I have never talked to anyone that has seen a ufo. I have never talked to anyone that has seen bigfoot. I am basing what I share with you on my own personal experience.


----------



## ambush80

ambush80 said:


> You're not talking about stuff that everybody knows is real.  If I told you that I foul hooked the Loch Ness Monster at Clarks Bridge in Lake Lanier would you believe me?  What if I showed you the rod he snapped in half?  How about if I showed you the tooth marks in my hull?  How about a picture I took with my phone as he sounded, clearly showing what appears to be a giant pectoral fin?  What if I told you I believe it with all my heart?
> 
> Would you believe that there is a Loch Ness Monster in lake Lanier?  I'd go check it out.  Lots of people might.  Some of them will see it.
> 
> And to the question that you and Welder avoid: What to make of the testimony of those that have had experiences and give testimony that they claim points to a God different than yours? Can we stay on that issue for at least 15 posts?





bullethead said:


> Do the same guys flock to your stand when you tell them that a gaggle of bigfeets use the trail nearby?
> How many of your buddies cast lines at your favorite  'Nesse hotspot?
> 
> Yes, I have a trust issue with you.



Beat ya to it


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> I'm not about to tell you who or what to believe. I am telling you what I believe and why I believe it. You are the one in search of answers I have found mine. I have never talked to anyone that has seen a ufo. I have never talked to anyone that has seen bigfoot. I am basing what I share with you on my own personal experience.



And yours is good as theirs?  Or, theirs is worse than yours?


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> Beat ya to it



Indeed


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> And yours is good as theirs?  Or, theirs is worse than yours?



You know people that have seen a ufo and an alien popped out? You know people that have see a unicorn? You know people that have seen big foot in the millions? I get it you have trust and credibility issues is not that uncommon. I don't trust a lot of people myself.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I'm not about to tell you who or what to believe. I am telling you what I believe and why I believe it. You are the one in search of answers I have found mine. I have never talked to anyone that has seen a ufo. I have never talked to anyone that has seen bigfoot. I am basing what I share with you on my own personal experience.


We fully understand what you believe and why you believe it.
We have no problem with that.
When you made the leap from what you believe to telling us what is true then we asked for proof.
You have been unable to provide any truth that is acceptable. 
You have not been able to back up any claim or assertion.
You are unable to cite one court case that accepts the testimony you say is acceptable. 
We are only asking you to back up your claims.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> You know people that have seen a ufo and an alien popped out? You know people that have see a unicorn? You know people that have seen big foot in the millions? I get it you have trust and credibility issues is not that uncommon. I don't trust a lot of people myself.



I find it easy to trust people when they're talking about something sensible and realistic.  If you told me you were wearing a red shirt right now I would believe you.  If you told me you were levitating an inch above the ground you would have to give me pretty good evidence.  I might even have to see it with my own eyes.  Do you see the difference in the two types of claims?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> You know people that have seen a ufo and an alien popped out? You know people that have see a unicorn? You know people that have seen big foot in the millions? I get it you have trust and credibility issues is not that uncommon. I don't trust a lot of people myself.


Your style is to avoid giving a direct answer to
a direct question when you know you cannot answer it honestly.


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> Your style is to avoid giving a direct answer to
> a direct question when you know you cannot answer it honestly.



Curious, isn't it?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Your style is to avoid giving a direct answer to
> a direct question when you know you cannot answer it honestly.



Not true. I have been nothing but honest with you. I have answered every question you presented. You just don't like my answers.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Not true. I have been nothing but honest with you. I have answered every question you presented. You just don't like my answers.



How about my question?



ambush80 said:


> I find it easy to trust people when they're talking about something sensible and realistic.  If you told me you were wearing a red shirt right now I would believe you.  If you told me you were levitating an inch above the ground you would have to give me pretty good evidence.  I might even have to see it with my own eyes.  Do you see the difference in the two types of claims?



?


----------



## ambush80

Bigfoot and I were captured by the same aliens and held in captivity in their ship.  We were subjected to many highly invasive tests.

Do you believe me?  Why or why not?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Bigfoot and I were captured by the same aliens and held in captivity in their ship.  We were subjected to many highly invasive tests.
> 
> Do you believe me?  Why or why not?



This is where I have a problem with the questioning. You are just throwing things out there to see what sticks. You are making up hypothetical questions. I am telling you I experienced mine. Are you telling me man to man that you were probed. I mean by an alien.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Not true. I have been nothing but honest with you. I have answered every question you presented. You just don't like my answers.



I reject the incorrect ones as most people do.

Which court has declared your god as being legitimate because of the testimony you have given or the testimony others have given? Remember the type of testimony that you claim is legitimate and accepted..


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> I find it easy to trust people when they're talking about something sensible and realistic.  If you told me you were wearing a red shirt right now I would believe you.  If you told me you were levitating an inch above the ground you would have to give me pretty good evidence.  I might even have to see it with my own eyes.  Do you see the difference in the two types of claims?



Richie ^^^ this...


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> This is where I have a problem with the questioning. You are just throwing things out there to see what sticks. You are making up hypothetical questions. I am telling you I experienced mine. Are you telling me man to man that you were probed. I mean by an alien.



Does it matter if it happened to me or my mom or any other stranger?  The fact is that some people have claimed such things.  Do you believe them?  Why or why not?

All we're trying to get to is what are your standards for someone else's claims?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie ^^^ this...



Bullet I do see the difference but I am tired of the hypothetical's. I have been honest with you now be honest with me? Do you personally know anyone that has claimed to have seen a bigfoot? Do you personally know anyone that has claimed to have had an experience with the Holy spirit?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Does it matter if it happened to me or my mom or any other stranger?  The fact is that some people have claimed such things.  Do you believe them?  Why or why not?
> 
> All we're trying to get to is what are your standards for someone else's claims?



Now its you who are dodging the questions. Why do keep coming up with hear say. I am asking your personnel experience with this. Have you experienced these things? If my uncle had breasts he would be my aunt. Is he an alien woman?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I do see the difference but I am tired of the hypothetical's. I have been honest with you now be honest with me? Do you personally know anyone that has claimed to have seen a bigfoot? Do you personally know anyone that has claimed to have had an experience with the Holy spirit?


Bigfoot, no.
H.S., yes
My mother in law makes you look like an atheist. I've had over 20 years of these same conversations with her.
Ive shared many of them numerous times in these threads.
She never could back up a claim either.
On her deathbed she realized all she had previously believed seemed to be untrue.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Bigfoot, no.
> H.S., yes
> My mother in law makes you look like an atheist. I've had over 20 years of these same conversations with her.
> Ive shared many of them numerous times in these threads.
> She never could back up a claim either.
> On her deathbed she realized all she had previously believed seemed to be untrue.



Your mother in law sounds like an amazing woman. My condolences on your loss. I hope you are reunited one day. But I would bet I could ask every one on this forum the same question and they would have the same answer.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Now its you who are dodging the questions. Why do keep coming up with hear say. I am asking your personnel experience with this. Have you experienced these things? If my uncle had breasts he would be my aunt. Is he an alien woman?



I used to believe that God spoke to me.  

What difference does it make if it's my personal experience or some other stranger? You still judge whether or not it's believable using the same criteria I do.  I'm trying to show you that you don't apply the same level of scrutiny to your own claims.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Your mother in law sounds like an amazing woman. My condolences on your loss. I hope you are reunited one day. But I would bet I could ask every one on this forum the same question and they would have the same answer.


Many people do not like their MIL but I can say mine was fantastic and I loved her dearly.
Our religious conversations made our intellectual relationship stronger.
I appreciate your condolences.

What question are you talking about?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Many people do not like their MIL but I can say mine was fantastic and I loved her dearly.
> Our religious conversations made our intellectual conversations stronger.
> I appreciate your condolences.
> 
> What question are you talking about?



How many people personally know someone that honestly claims to have seen a big foot or an alien. The answer will be no. And how many people personally know someone that has experienced the Holy spirit. The answer will be yes. Why do you think this is so?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Your mother in law sounds like an amazing woman. My condolences on your loss. I hope you are reunited one day. But I would bet I could ask every one on this forum the same question and they would have the same answer.


Reunited?
She questioned god on her deathbed. She wanted to know why her beliefs and biblical promises were not coming to fruition. 
Cancer literally ate her organs.
Death was not glorious.
No Angels
No painless elation in the glory of god.

Excruciating agony compounded by starvation untill she drowned in her own liquids.

A loyal servant....
Not even granted a prayer to be taken quickly.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> How many people personally know someone that honestly claims to have seen a big foot or an alien. The answer will be no. And how many people personally know someone that has experienced the Holy spirit. The answer will be yes. Why do you think this is so?


Oh that is nonsense.
Search for a bigfoot forum and join.
Your claimed results will switch quickly and leave you making excuses for why.
Same for an alien forum.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> How many people personally know someone that honestly claims to have seen a big foot or an alien. The answer will be no. And how many people personally know someone that has experienced the Holy spirit. The answer will be yes. Why do you think this is so?



I thought I had seen a ghost many years ago.
To this day I cant fully explain it.
But I dont go around telling people that what I saw was 100% either way.
I just dont know.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> How many people personally know someone that honestly claims to have seen a big foot or an alien. The answer will be no. And how many people personally know someone that has experienced the Holy spirit. The answer will be yes. Why do you think this is so?


Turn on the tv.
Choose the "looking for Bigfoot" show you prefer.
Count how many times they say "there he is".
The only thing you never actually see on the show?
Yup.... a Bigfoot.
Sound familiar?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Reunited?
> She questioned god on her deathbed. She wanted to know why her beliefs and biblical promises were not coming to fruition.
> Cancer literally ate her organs.
> Death was not glorious.
> No Angels
> No painless elation in the glory of god.
> 
> Excruciating agony compounded by starvation untill she drowned in her own liquids.
> 
> A loyal servant....
> Not even granted a prayer to be taken quickly.



What if she is in the Kingdom of heaven right now. What if she is trying to tell you that it does exist. I lost my best friend to cancer at the age of 29. Believe me I watched him feed himself through a stomach tube because the cemo made him to sick to eat. I know the harsh reality. But when he died he said he did see angels and that they had come for him.


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> Turn on the tv.
> Choose the "looking for Bigfoot" show you prefer.
> Count how many times they say "there he is".
> The only thing you never actually see on the show?
> Yup a Bigfoot.
> Sound familiar?


They CONSTANTLY talk about "typical" big foot behavior. "typical" bigfoot sounds. "typical bigfoot reactions.
And yet they have never studied one, never actually saw one, never found a dead one.
But they too are EXPERTS!

GOOD example Walt


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> Turn on the tv.
> Choose the "looking for Bigfoot" show you prefer.
> Count how many times they say "there he is".
> The only thing you never actually see on the show?
> Yup.... a Bigfoot.
> Sound familiar?



Seriously I'm not talking about a tv show I'm talking about real life personal experience.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Seriously I'm not talking about a tv show I'm talking about real life personal experience.


When they say "there he is" that is telling you they are having the real life personal experience of seeing what they believe to be Bigfoot.
So not only do we "know" people who honestly claim to have seen a Bigfoot........ they actually have tv shows about it.

They absolutely believe they are having personal contact with Bigfoot.
That proves Bigfoot exists doesn't it?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> What if she is in the Kingdom of heaven right now. What if she is trying to tell you that it does exist. I lost my best friend to cancer at the age of 29. Believe me I watched him feed himself through a stomach tube because the cemo made him to sick to eat. I know the harsh reality. But when he died he said he did see angels and that they had come for him.



Wait, you aren't now switching to hypotheticals are you?
What ifs???

She said she would do everything possible IF possible to contact me. 

You mean your friend told you that before he died, right?


----------



## bullethead

WaltL1 said:


> When they say "there he is" that is telling you they are having the real life personal experience of seeing what they believe to be Bigfoot.
> So not only do we "know" people who honestly claim to have seen a Bigfoot........ they actually have tv shows about it.
> 
> They absolutely believe they are having personal contact with Bigfoot.
> That proves Bigfoot exists doesn't it?


Should work in court....


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> When they say "there he is" that is telling you they are having the real life personal experience of seeing what they believe to be Bigfoot.
> So not only do we "know" people who honestly claim to have seen a Bigfoot........ they actually have tv shows about it.
> 
> They absolutely believe they are having personal contact with Bigfoot.
> That proves Bigfoot exists doesn't it?



Walt I will ask you the same question? Do you personally know a person that claims to have seen a bigfoot? Do you personally know a person that has had an experience with the Holy Spirit? Tell the truth no tv mumbo jumbo.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Reunited?
> She questioned god on her deathbed. She wanted to know why her beliefs and biblical promises were not coming to fruition.
> Cancer literally ate her organs.
> Death was not glorious.
> No Angels
> No painless elation in the glory of god.
> 
> Excruciating agony compounded by starvation untill she drowned in her own liquids.
> 
> A loyal servant....
> Not even granted a prayer to be taken quickly.



So,  it's not that you don't believe in God.  You're just mad at God,  right?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Wait, you aren't now switching to hypotheticals are you?
> What ifs???
> 
> She said she would do everything possible IF possible to contact me.
> 
> You mean your friend told you that before he died, right?



What if she is contacting you right now? He wasn't saying it directly to me more of a narrative of what he was seeing .


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Walt I will ask you the same question? Do you personally know a person that claims to have seen a bigfoot? Do you personally know a person that has had an experience with the Holy Spirit? Tell the truth no tv mumbo jumbo.


Do some of you guys just purposely ignore what we write or is it some sort of "special gift" ?


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> So,  it's not that you don't believe in God.  You're just mad at God,  right?



No
It upset me that she put so much time, effort and faith into something and she was let down in the end when all she left was her faith.
I cannot be mad at a god, or mighty mouse, or wolverine or c3po.
Tell me how I could possibly mad at any of those .


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> No
> It upset me that she put so much time, effort and faith into something and she was let down in the end when all she left was her faith.
> I cannot be mad at a god, or mighty mouse, or wolverine or c3po.
> Tell me how I could possibly mad at any of those .



Who let her down?


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> Do some of you guys just purposely ignore what we write or is it some sort of "special gift" ?



Answer the Question truthfully.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Oh that is nonsense.
> Search for a bigfoot forum and join.
> Your claimed results will switch quickly and leave you making excuses for why.
> Same for an alien forum.



You gave the exact true answer that is nonsense?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> What if she is contacting you right now? He wasn't saying it directly to me more of a narrative of what he was seeing .



Richie....YOU spent a few posts talking smack about hypotheticals when they didnt suit you and now you expect me play along.

What indeed IF she is trying to contact me right now?
How?
If she is she is doing a bad job.
If I was needy and HAD to feel that she was contacting me i could spill a box of toothpicks on the floor and once ive seen two that cross like a "t" i could out of sheer NEED convince myself that the ONLY way that happened was by her hand, or gods hand, or was it the devil trying to trick me, or was it Allah showing me compassion for my beliefs and he gave ne a sign that he knew I would understand, or is it "typical "bigfoot behavior for them to cross wooden stix as a sign of their bedding area.

I, you, anybody can make excuses for anything that we are looking for.

What I want is undeniable proof.

She knows a slap upside the head by her morphing right here in front of me now will do it. It hasnt happened. Wait, nope still hasnt happened. 
I am convinced that it is more likely than not that it will never happen. I am open to it, but I am not needy enough to connect dots that are not there.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Who let her down?



She let herself down believing in nonsense.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> No
> It upset me that she put so much time, effort and faith into something and she was let down in the end when all she left was her faith.
> I cannot be mad at a god, or mighty mouse, or wolverine or c3po.
> Tell me how I could possibly mad at any of those .



How do you know she was let down? What if she is in the Kingdom right now? What if she is trying to communicate with you through people on this forum right now?


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> She let herself down believing in nonsense.



I agree.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> How do you know she was let down? What if she is in the Kingdom right now? What if she is trying to communicate with you through people on this forum right now?



What if she is on bubblegum mountain and queen of jellybean  plateau?

Thats another hypothetical from you Richie.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> How do you know she was let down? What if she is in the Kingdom right now? What if she is trying to communicate with you through people on this forum right now?



Richie, this  nonsense is the stuff Im talking about with you and welder. 
You guys NEED to connect dots that are not there. You carry a sharpie so you can add them in. You put 8 letters in a 5 letter crossword box so your wrongs seems right.

If she is using YOU or welder as a medium then I beg you, tell me something only she would know would convince me that what you say is true.
What are her childrens names?
What is HER name?
When is HER birthday?

Cmon.....now is your chance.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I thought I had seen a ghost many years ago.
> To this day I cant fully explain it.
> But I dont go around telling people that what I saw was 100% either way.
> I just dont know.



Personal testimony. I will believe that more than a bigfoot tv show any day. And if you are sure of what you witnessed and you are not CensoredCensored ing to sell a show, and there are millions of witness's with the same account I will take you seriously.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Answer the Question truthfully.


1. There are tv shows about people seeing Bigfoot.
2. Christians not only claim to have experienced the Holy Spirit but claim to actually have a relationship.

Have I actually physically met each one of the above people? Is that your point?
No.
Haven't met you either.......


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Personal testimony. I will believe that more than a bigfoot tv show any day. And if you are sure of what you witnessed and you are not CensoredCensored ing to sell a show, and there are millions of witness's with the same account I will take you seriously.


But you are only hearing what you want to hear.
I THOUGHT it was a ghost.
It MAY have been a ghost.
I Dont KNOW what the heck it really was.
I can make a case for yes or no.

I have not given you testimony of anything.
And you fall for it as if I did.
Your need to believe in whatever you think is real takes away from your natural caution.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Richie, this  nonsense is the stuff Im talking about with you and welder.
> You guys NEED to connect dots that are not there. You carry a sharpie so you can add them in. You put 8 letters in a 5 letter crossword box so your wrongs seems right.
> 
> If she is using YOU or welder as a medium then I beg you, tell me something only she would know would convince me that what you say is true.
> What are her childrens names?
> What is HER name?
> When is HER birthday?
> 
> Cmon.....now is your chance.



I knew you were gonna ask that. I knew that is what it would take for you. When I was praying this morning for you string came to mind I have no idea what that means but that is what I felt I should tell you. Is there something about a string that is meaningful to you?


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Personal testimony. I will believe that more than a bigfoot tv show any day. And if you are sure of what you witnessed and you are not CensoredCensored ing to sell a show, and there are millions of witness's with the same account I will take you seriously.


Personal testimony doesn't have to be about God.
I experienced Bigfoot and I experienced God are both personal testimony.

You are backing yourself into a corner.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> How do you know she was let down? What if she is in the Kingdom right now? What if she is trying to communicate with you through people on this forum right now?



This tells us more about you than anything else.

You take an end result and work backwords to the source you need it to come from.

Anyone can use any other source and insert it to fit the way you do.

You will draw dots to create the picture you want while ignoring the dots that are in place that draw the picture you dont want to see.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I knew you were gonna ask that. I knew that is what it would take for you. When I was praying this morning for you string came to mind I have no idea what that means but that is what I felt I should tell you. Is there something about a string that is meaningful to you?



Absolutely nothing.

Listen when i die and if it is possible for me to communicate to a friend or loved one i am going to be specific, accurate and use details to get the exact information across.

You are going John Edwards on me here and are discrediting yourself even more, which I didnt think was possible. 

If your god gave you "string" as the thing that was gonna enlighten me you should go see a shrink asap.
One word from the most powerful entity to ever exist and it is a total brick...
You should be ashamed.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> Personal testimony doesn't have to be about God.
> I experienced Bigfoot and I experienced God are both personal testimony.
> 
> You are backing yourself into a corner.



Not at all you actually saw a Bigfoot? You are the first person I have talked to to  honestly make this claim. But I am not buying what you are selling. Walt if you experienced God why do you doubt his existence. My boy welder was right you and ambush like to play games.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Absolutely nothing.
> 
> Listen when i die and if it is possible for me to communicate to a friend or loved one i am going to be specific, accurate and use details to get the exact information across.
> 
> You are going John Edwards on me here and are discrediting yourself even more, which I didnt think was possible.
> 
> If your god gave you "string" as the thing that was gonna enlighten me you should go see a shrink asap.
> One word from the most powerful entity to ever exist and it is a total brick...
> You should be ashamed.



Never. I told you I don't always understand things but I have learned not to doubt them. I knew you were going to ask for something specific. I prayed to give me the words. That is what I felt to tell you so that's what I did.


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Not at all you actually saw a Bigfoot? You are the first person I have talked to to  honestly make this claim. But I am not buying what you are selling. Walt if you experienced God why do you doubt his existence. My boy welder was right you and ambush like to play games.


I have no clue what the above nonsense you just wrote is about.
And then you conclude that we are playing games.
Absolutely amazing.......


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> I knew you were gonna ask that. I knew that is what it would take for you. When I was praying this morning for you string came to mind I have no idea what that means but that is what I felt I should tell you. Is there something about a string that is meaningful to you?



How didnt your god know the three things I was gonna ask you?
How didnt my MIL know what to tell you were the answers to those three things?

Get to praying.
Now you already know the questions.
If you can communicate through prayer to a higer power then I'll expect your answers in the morning.
If you want to text me the answers (God knows my 2nd cell number..not the one ive already given to welder...) you can do that too
Hit me up either way.

Its not like your reputation lies in you pulling this off or anything...

Tty tomm....or not.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Never. I told you I don't always understand things but I have learned not to doubt them. I knew you were going to ask for something specific. I prayed to give me the words. That is what I felt to tell you so that's what I did.



I am done playing along.
Tomm is put up or shut up time.
Get to praying instead of typing on here.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> How didnt your god know the three things I was gonna ask you?
> How didnt my MIL know what to tell you were the answers to those three things?
> 
> Get to praying.
> Now you already know the questions.
> If you can communicate through prayer to a higer power then I'll expect your answers in the morning.
> If you want to text me the answers (God knows my 2nd cell number..not the one ive already given to welder...) you can do that too
> Hit me up either way.
> 
> Its not like your reputation lies in you pulling this off or anything...
> 
> Tty tomm....or not.


That's not how it works . I will pray for sure but I may not understand or get the answer right away or may not understand the message. Or may not get one at all but unlike you I will be listening. God is not a being you can command to do your will. I do my best to listen but don't always hear the message but over time learn the message. After all I am human and do have faults. I was going out on a limb there but I trust in God so much I am willing to do that. In fact he may be testing my faith and not yours.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> That's not how it works . I will pray for sure but I may not understand or get the answer right away or may not understand the message. Or may not get one at all but unlike you I will be listening. God is not a being you can command to do your will. I do my best to listen but don't always hear the message but over time learn the message. After all I am human and do have faults. I was going out on a limb there but I trust in God so much I am willing to do that. In fact he may be testing my faith and not yours.


Or it could be that you are wrong and mistaken and your need to prove to yourself that you have a relationship with a being has you grasping at straws and willing to take anything and everything as some sort of sign.
Whrn one thing that you are SURE of doesnt pan out out make a few excuses and adjust your redirect.
God was trying to talk to me, then it was my MIL, but now when your Little Orphan Annie decoder word didnt pan out God is testing you.
Quit your job and go into fertilizer sales. You are a natural.


----------



## 660griz

red neck richie said:


> That's not how it works . I will pray for sure but I may not understand or get the answer right away or may not understand the message.



"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realized that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me." 
---Emo Philips


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Or it could be that you are wrong and mistaken and your need to prove to yourself that you have a relationship with a being has you grasping at straws and willing to take anything and everything as some sort of sign.
> Whrn one thing that you are SURE of doesnt pan out out make a few excuses and adjust your redirect.
> God was trying to talk to me, then it was my MIL, but now when your Little Orphan Annie decoder word didnt pan out God is testing you.
> Quit your job and go into fertilizer sales. You are a natural.


It must be nice to have all of the knowledge of everything that ever was and will come to be in our known world. To live a life void of fear of anything because you already know it all must be comforting.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It must be nice to have all of the knowledge of everything that ever was and will come to be in our known world. To live a life void of fear of anything because you already know it all must be comforting.


Geeze, I guess it would be nice, I couldn't tell you.


I find it comforting to be able to inform myself with as much information as posssible regarding whatever subject I happen to be discussing and then using that information to make educated decisions about what is more likely to be accurate based off of the avaliable information.
I really do not fear much though, maybe sharks.
I will admit though that I do not have the luxury of time that would allow a person to make almost 70,000 posts in a few short years, so I would venture to guess a person with that much time and that many posts certainly seems to think they outrank all others in perceived knowledge of everything that ever was or ever will be, and if not..they certainly make an willful effort to get a word in wherever and whenever they can just to pad their count because they like to hear themself and thinks that his or her opinion matters whenever they feel like jumping in.

A good example of that would be someone just popping into a thread to make a poor attempt at a snide comment to somone else when that initial person did not contribute a single post in regards to entire conversation that has been taking place over weeks.

Take care Miggy.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Or it could be that you are wrong and mistaken and your need to prove to yourself that you have a relationship with a being has you grasping at straws and willing to take anything and everything as some sort of sign.
> Whrn one thing that you are SURE of doesnt pan out out make a few excuses and adjust your redirect.
> God was trying to talk to me, then it was my MIL, but now when your Little Orphan Annie decoder word didnt pan out God is testing you.
> Quit your job and go into fertilizer sales. You are a natural.



1 CORINTHIANS 2:1-16 describes it perfectly. Read it and get back to me.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Geeze, I guess it would be nice, I couldn't tell you.
> 
> 
> I find it comforting to be able to inform myself with as much information as posssible regarding whatever subject I happen to be discussing and then using that information to make educated decisions about what is more likely to be accurate based off of the avaliable information.
> I really do not fear much though, maybe sharks.
> I will admit though that I do not have the luxury of time that would allow a person to make almost 70,000 posts in a few short years, so I would venture to guess a person with that much time and that many posts certainly seems to think they outrank all others in perceived knowledge of everything that ever was or ever will be, and if not..they certainly make an willful effort to get a word in wherever and whenever they can just to pad their count because they like to hear themself and thinks that his or her opinion matters whenever they feel like jumping in.
> 
> A good example of that would be someone just popping into a thread to make a poor attempt at a snide comment to somone else when that initial person did not contribute a single post in regards to entire conversation that has been taking place over weeks.
> 
> Take care Miggy.



It wasn't my first post in the thread and with a 90+ wpm typing skill posting is near effortless (FWIW It is closer to a 200k posts, I've just thinned them out over the years) But thanks for stalking me to try and make an invalid point relative to the topic. Your research on me, contrary to your pseudo reliable efforts did not yield the factual truths in this case. 

But while we're playing this hyper intellectual game of yours allow me to ask a question. 

Given the influence and availability of information at our fingertips, thanks to Google and other similar search engines today; Using a circular pie chart representing all of the knowledge available that ever was in our planets existence, what percentage, slice of that pie, would you say you possess, seeing that you do hold yourself as a reasonably studied intelligent person?


----------



## red neck richie

red neck richie said:


> 1 CORINTHIANS 2:1-16 describes it perfectly. Read it and get back to me.



By the way I was reading from my wife's Bible because mine was on the other side of the room. I was looking for a book mark to save the page I was on and couldn't find one. But guess what I found at the bottom of her Bible to save the page. That's right a string. Mine doesn't  have one.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> By the way I was reading from my wife's Bible because mine was on the other side of the room. I was looking for a book mark to save the page I was on and couldn't find one. But guess what I found at the bottom of her Bible to save the page. That's right a string. Mine doesn't  have one.



Oh my.......


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It wasn't my first post in the thread and with a 90+ wpm typing skill posting is near effortless (FWIW It is closer to a 200k posts, I've just thinned them out over the years) But thanks for stalking me to try and make an invalid point relative to the topic. Your research on me, contrary to your pseudo reliable efforts did not yield the factual truths in this case.
> 
> But while we're playing this hyper intellectual game of yours allow me to ask a question.
> 
> Given the influence and availability of information at our fingertips, thanks to Google and other similar search engines today; Using a circular pie chart representing all of the knowledge available that ever was in our planets existence, what percentage, slice of that pie, would you say you possess, seeing that you do hold yourself as a reasonably studied intelligent person?



I would suspect the slice of pie that represents what we understand is very small.  Admittedly by believers, what they know about God, Angels, Predestination, Heaven, The Spirit, exists in that giant part of the pie that we don't know.  Why do believers speak with such authority on these matters?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> I would suspect the slice of pie that represents what we understand is very small.  Admittedly by believers, what they know about God, Angels, Predestination, Heaven, The Spirit, exists in that giant part of the pie that we don't know.  Why do believers speak with such authority on these matters?



You overstepped any claim that I have yet to make in the matter and made a bold assumption regarding your disdain for Christians et al that was not implied. 

You are welcome to assign a percentage to your own pie chart if you wish and we shall discuss further.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> It wasn't my first post in the thread and with a 90+ wpm typing skill posting is near effortless (FWIW It is closer to a 200k posts, I've just thinned them out over the years) But thanks for stalking me to try and make an invalid point relative to the topic. Your research on me, contrary to your pseudo reliable efforts did not yield the factual truths in this case.
> 
> But while we're playing this hyper intellectual game of yours allow me to ask a question.
> 
> Given the influence and availability of information at our fingertips, thanks to Google and other similar search engines today; Using a circular pie chart representing all of the knowledge available that ever was in our planets existence, what percentage, slice of that pie, would you say you possess, seeing that you do hold yourself as a reasonably studied intelligent person?



Stalking...
You don't know the definition..type fast and look it up.


Less than 0.001%
But I strive on my willingness to learn.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> By the way I was reading from my wife's Bible because mine was on the other side of the room. I was looking for a book mark to save the page I was on and couldn't find one. But guess what I found at the bottom of her Bible to save the page. That's right a string. Mine doesn't  have one.


Yeah thats it.
String.
String...
I thought about it last night.
String,
Lights, a string of lights.
Xmas lights.
A string of xmas lights that we still hang on our tree.
And guess where they came from....?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Stalking...
> You don't know the definition..type fast and look it up.
> 
> 
> Less than 0.001%
> But I strive on my willingness to learn.



As a Christian I would equate my knowledge of the Bible and God about the same as your claim to general knowledge, but you are seemingly intelligent so I won't dare compare my general knowledge capabilities up to par with yours. So give me a 0.0015% in that category. 

Now, you are firm in your adherence to the "fact" that no God exist, yet your own math has just admitted to the fact that out of all known knowledge to exist on this planet there is 99.999% of which you are not knowledgeable. 

So, is it possible that out of that 99.999% of which you do not know that you have simply not yet discovered that dimension of knowledge of which God does exist?


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> As a Christian I would equate my knowledge of the Bible and God about the same as your claim to general knowledge, but you are seemingly intelligent so I won't dare compare my general knowledge capabilities up to par with yours. So give me a 0.0015% in that category.
> 
> Now, you are firm in your adherence to the "fact" that no God exist, yet your own math has just admitted to the fact that out of all known knowledge to exist on this planet there is 99.999% of which you are not knowledgeable.
> 
> So, is it possible that out of that 99.999% of which you do not know that you have simply not yet discovered that dimension of knowledge of which God does exist?



Now Miguel, 
1. I've always said that I Do Not Know if a god exists.
2. I've always said that if a god exists that I do not know about it.
3. I've always said that I have found no evidence of any specific god existing as described by any specific religion that is mainly talked about in here.

It certainly is possible that there is a realm of knowledge that would allow me to know for sure a god exists.

Now, are you open to all that untapped knowledge existing that opens up the possibility that whatever knowledge you think you know and understand about the god you currently worship is incorrect?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Yeah thats it.
> String.
> String...
> I thought about it last night.
> String,
> Lights, a string of lights.
> Xmas lights.
> A string of xmas lights that we still hang on our tree.
> And guess where they came from....?



1CORINTHIANS 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


----------



## 660griz

"Imagine you are God. You’re all-powerful, nothing is beyond you. You’re all-loving. So it is really, really important to you that humans are left in no doubt about your existence and your loving nature, and exactly what they need to do in order to get to heaven and avoid eternity in the fires of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored. It’s really important to you to get that across. So what do you do? Well, if you’re Jehovah, apparently this is what you do. You talk in riddles. You tell stories which on the surface have a different message from the one you apparently want us to understand. You expect us to hear X, and instinctively understand that it needs to be interpreted in the light of Y, which you happen to have said in the course of a completely different story 500-1,000 years earlier. Instead of speaking directly into our heads - which God has presumed the capability of doing so - simply, clearly and straightforwardly in terms which the particular individual being addressed will immediately understand and respond to positively - you steep your messages in symbols, in metaphors. In fact, you choose to convey the most important message in the history of creation in code, as if you aspired to be Umberto Eco or Dan Brown. Anyone would think your top priority was to keep generation after generation after generation of theologians in meaningless employment, rather than communicate an urgent life-or-death message to the creatures you love more than any other." ---Richard Dawkins   ( I think.)


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> 1CORINTHIANS 2:14
> But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Nope. Corinthians did not give me the lights. 
Take another guess


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> As a Christian I would equate my knowledge of the Bible and God about the same as your claim to general knowledge, but you are seemingly intelligent so I won't dare compare my general knowledge capabilities up to par with yours. So give me a 0.0015% in that category.
> 
> Now, you are firm in your adherence to the "fact" that no God exist, yet your own math has just admitted to the fact that out of all known knowledge to exist on this planet there is 99.999% of which you are not knowledgeable.
> 
> So, is it possible that out of that 99.999% of which you do not know that you have simply not yet discovered that dimension of knowledge of which God does exist?



So you and I are on level ground.
Would you agree?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Now Miguel,
> 1. I've always said that I Do Not Know if a god exists.
> 2. I've always said that if a god exists that I do not know about it.
> 3. I've always said that I have found no evidence of any specific god existing as described by any specific religion that is mainly talked about in here.
> 
> It certainly is possible that there is a realm of knowledge that would allow me to know for sure a god exists.
> 
> Now, are you open to all that untapped knowledge existing that opens up the possibility that whatever knowledge you think you know and understand about the god you currently worship is incorrect?



This is what I love about the "scientific facts are sufficient" for absolute truth about what I need to know crowd.  Especially given the constantly changing percentage of error that is evolving regarding scientific findings, not to mention the corruption being uncovered in other areas of science where money was the driving motivator to provide the answers they did. 

I admire you humility in your admission of percentage of knowledge and won't dare challenge it, but given the percentage of that which you do not know, why do you and others in the same boat constantly feel the need to sarcastically degrade those that do have a knowledge of God, regardless if it is only 0.0005%. Is it jealousy of knowledge they have discovered that you have yet to? 

Given your admitted lack of 99.999% of what is yet to learn I believe there is plenty left out there for all of us to discover, and we all may be highly surprised what the reality of the situation is based on our preconceived notions of what we suspect to be. 

So in short, the absolutes of science and availability to information via technology may not be exactly what they seem in the big picture, nor is a belief in God any more invalid by the same measure. With over 99% of knowledge yet to be unlocked by anyone on this planet I think there could be common ground where we all can have a discussion without condescension towards ones character or level of intelligence. 

To use what I don't know as an argument is like trying to prove a negative. That never works out well for any debate. But to use what you do know, based on the vast chasm of what is left to learn creates common ground.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> As a Christian I would equate my knowledge of the Bible and God about the same as your claim to general knowledge, but you are seemingly intelligent so I won't dare compare my general knowledge capabilities up to par with yours. So give me a 0.0015% in that category.
> 
> Now, you are firm in your adherence to the "fact" that no God exist, yet your own math has just admitted to the fact that out of all known knowledge to exist on this planet there is 99.999% of which you are not knowledgeable.
> 
> So, is it possible that out of that 99.999% of which you do not know that you have simply not yet discovered that dimension of knowledge of which God does exist?


Lets ask Richie and welder about their pie chart percentage of knowledge about their god.
Nobody is perfect but those two may grade themself as 99%ers as they each have said multiple times they are 100% sure about knowledge about their beliefs. 

What do you say to that?
What is your opinion?
Are they that knowledgable?
How could we tell?

How could you test me if i lied and said I was 100%?

Can we test them the same way?

Would you use evidence or just take their word for it?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> So you and I are on level ground.
> Would you agree?



Absolutely, but I would also admit that attempting to find absolute truth in all matters of knowledge not yet discovered, such as "What is True" on an internet forum is a colossal exercise in futility. 

All that ever comes out in the end when counter cultures of belief are pitted against one another is reduced to a childs name calling game with neither side being able to offer substantial evidence to prove that their 0.001% of knowledge is greater than the others. 

I will not force you to believe in the God I know, if you will not force me to believe in the science you accept as proof to the contrary based on what we both do not know yet. And I shall never insinuate you to be less of a man of character for the difference. Nor shall I fear for your future in whatever afterlife may or may not exist. That is not my job as a Christian, contrary to what others may expel as fact. 

We are all on a constant quest for knowledge and truth, and given that which is still out there, and dividing our ages by the percentage of what we feel we do know it can be safely presumed that none of us will know the absolute truth while we exist in this dimension, or any other if it truly exists.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Lets ask Richie and welder about their pie chart percentage of knowledge about their god.
> Nobody is perfect but those two may grade themself as 99%ers as they each have said multiple times they are 100% sure about knowledge about their beliefs.
> 
> What do you say to that?



I would say that their statements are to be interpreted as; They are 100% confident in the 0.0005% that of which they do know, just as I am sure you are 100% confident in the 0.001% of that of which you do know.


----------



## 660griz

So, are all the agnostics and religious folks in agreement that there is a chance all gods could exist?


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> This is what I love about the "scientific facts are sufficient" for absolute truth about what I need to know crowd.  Especially given the constantly changing percentage of error that is evolving regarding scientific findings, not to mention the corruption being uncovered in other areas of science where money was the driving motivator to provide the answers they did.
> 
> I admire you humility in your admission of percentage of knowledge and won't dare challenge it, but given the percentage of that which you do not know, why do you and others in the same boat constantly feel the need to sarcastically degrade those that do have a knowledge of God, regardless if it is only 0.0005%. Is it jealousy of knowledge they have discovered that you have yet to?
> 
> Given your admitted lack of 99.999% of what is yet to learn I believe there is plenty left out there for all of us to discover, and we all may be highly surprised what the reality of the situation is based on our preconceived notions of what we suspect to be.
> 
> So in short, the absolutes of science and availability to information via technology may not be exactly what they seem in the big picture, nor is a belief in God any more invalid by the same measure. With over 99% of knowledge yet to be unlocked by anyone on this planet I think there could be common ground where we all can have a discussion without condescension towards ones character or level of intelligence.
> 
> To use what I don't know as an argument is like trying to prove a negative. That never works out well for any debate. But to use what you do know, based on the vast chasm of what is left to learn creates common ground.


Is it possible tthat I know more than I guessed I did?

By your criteria nothing is known for sure anywhere by anyone, yet the entire world plays by different rules. 

And I am curious as to why you do not follow your own rules.
If I bring your criteria to light in other forums will you admit that you really do not know what you are talking about and then explain why you felt you should share your opinion anyway?
Or
Is the way things are discussed in here and everywhere a more accurate representation of how discussions are continued in just about every aspect conversation?
Its not always about what a person may or may not know, it is about what they can prove with just evidence to back up their claim.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I would say that their statements are to be interpreted as; They are 100% confident in the 0.0005% that of which they do know, just as I am sure you are 100% confident in the 0.001% of that of which you do know.


Should they be held to a standard for the .0005% that they claim to know?
Or given a free pass to make any claim they want as possibly being true because after all all...we are all equally stupid?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

660griz said:


> So, are all the agnostics and religious folks in agreement that there is a chance all gods could exist?



In essence, and from my perspective, knowing that my God goes by many names, dispelling ancient mythologies and those that were actually humans but claimed to be prophets yet distorted scriptures and created their own version of them for the sake of genocide (which in Christianity's past history is not completely absolved from) I would give it a definite possibility. But that is only an admission of my God appearing to other cultures in a manner an name that would appeal to them, as there are many parallels to their books of belief and the Christian Bible, absent the chronology of the Old Testament. 

So the answer would be yes, from my view, with stipulations. 

I've got to catch a few meetings, but will catch up later.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Should they be held to a standard for the .0005% that they claim to know?
> Or given a free pass to make any claim they want as possibly being true because after all all...we are all equally stupid?



Yes.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Is it possible tthat I know more than I guessed I did?
> 
> By your criteria nothing is known for sure anywhere by anyone, yet the entire world plays by different rules.
> 
> And I am curious as to why you do not follow your own rules.
> If I bring your criteria to light in other forums will you admit that you really do not know what you are talking about and then explain why you felt you should share your opinion anyway?
> Or
> Is the way things are discussed in here and everywhere a more accurate representation of how discussions are continued in just about every aspect conversation?
> Its not always about what a person may or may not know, it is about what they can prove with just evidence to back up their claim.



Does time actually exist? I don't engage in circular arguments, and will not continually badger you about the possibilities of what you do not know in order to prove what I do know.

Gotta run, really!!!


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Yes.



We can only deal in what is known not what might be.
I hold others to the same standards that I hold myself to and respect anyone that is capable of teaching me new things by showing a preponderance of evidence that supports their claims.

I will take the stance that any claim can be made but only the ones that can be backed up are valid.
If it's  based off of only .001% or .0005% of all known knowledge then so be it. It is the best we have at this time so use it to the maximum until something more supercedes it.
That is how mankind has gotten by this far and it seems to be the way things get done.

Hospitals do not use the same scalpels to cut into multiple patients because more about germs, cross contamination and health risks have been learned since the 1800s. They do not just continue to use the same old practices just because they do not know 100% of everything. They use the best available information until something better and more proven comes along.
I hold myself, you and everyone else to those same standards.
Why wouldn't I?


----------



## 660griz

Miguel Cervantes said:


> In essence, and from my perspective, knowing that my God goes by many names, dispelling ancient mythologies and those that were actually humans but claimed to be prophets yet distorted scriptures and created their own version of them for the sake of genocide (which in Christianity's past history is not completely absolved from) I would give it a definite possibility. But that is only an admission of my God appearing to other cultures in a manner an name that would appeal to them, as there are many parallels to their books of belief and the Christian Bible, absent the chronology of the Old Testament.
> 
> So the answer would be yes, from my view, with stipulations.


That kinda read like a long 'no'. 


> I've got to catch a few meetings, but will catch up later.



I have tried to get Friday meetings banned at work. To no avail. I have one in 45 minutes.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Lets ask Richie and welder about their pie chart percentage of knowledge about their god.
> Nobody is perfect but those two may grade themself as 99%ers as they each have said multiple times they are 100% sure about knowledge about their beliefs.
> 
> What do you say to that?
> What is your opinion?
> Are they that knowledgable?
> How could we tell?
> 
> How could you test me if i lied and said I was 100%?
> 
> Can we test them the same way?
> 
> Would you use evidence or just take their word for it?



Of the knowledge I have of God that is not dependent upon my brain, I would say wholeheartedly 100'/.

Of that which is in my brain, it wouldn't even amount to a crumb of that pie....
....But some day I'll know Him as I am known.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Of the knowledge I have of God that is not dependent upon my brain, I would say wholeheartedly 100'/.
> 
> Of that which is in my brain, it wouldn't even amount to a crumb of that pie....
> ....But some day I'll know Him as I am known.


Not even a humble 99%
This one is a perfect 100%

Miguel, are you buying this?


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You overstepped any claim that I have yet to make in the matter and made a bold assumption regarding your disdain for Christians et al that was not implied.
> 
> You are welcome to assign a percentage to your own pie chart if you wish and we shall discuss further.



Ok. I was just heading it off at the pass.  You know as well as I do where the conversation was headed and I was right based on your conversation with Bullet.  

Disdain is a strong word and doesn't apply to my attitude towards Christians.  We can beat around the bush and examine why people speak authoritatively on things they don't know about in general but that's not what we do in here.  We discuss a fairly narrow subject matter.


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> As a Christian I would equate my knowledge of the Bible and God about the same as your claim to general knowledge, but you are seemingly intelligent so I won't dare compare my general knowledge capabilities up to par with yours. So give me a 0.0015% in that category.
> 
> Now, you are firm in your adherence to the "fact" that no God exist, yet your own math has just admitted to the fact that out of all known knowledge to exist on this planet there is 99.999% of which you are not knowledgeable.
> 
> So, is it possible that out of that 99.999% of which you do not know that you have simply not yet discovered that dimension of knowledge of which God does exist?



Can you talk about how general knowledge is acquired?  How about knowledge of God and the Bible?  How are the methods different and how are they the same?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> Ok. I was just heading it off at the pass.  You know as well as I do where the conversation was headed and I was right based on your conversation with Bullet.
> 
> Disdain is a strong word and doesn't apply to my attitude towards Christians.  We can beat around the bush and examine why people speak authoritatively on things they don't know about in general but that's not what we do in here.  We discuss a fairly narrow subject matter.



Y'all want to meet up somewhere tomorrow after church and watch the Daytona 500.


----------



## red neck richie

red neck richie said:


> Y'all want to meet up somewhere tomorrow after church and watch the Daytona 500.



Sorry guys I wont be able to make it I am taking the girls out to the range tomorrow for some training and target shooting. I know Walt will be disappointed.


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Sorry guys I wont be able to make it I am taking the girls out to the range tomorrow for some training and target shooting. I know Walt will be disappointed.



Next time, Ritchie.  I would go out as far as Snellville (preferably more like Tucker) to meet up sometime.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Y'all want to meet up somewhere tomorrow after church and watch the Daytona 500.



Yep, Somewhere in North Carolina  should be about half way.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Sorry guys I wont be able to make it I am taking the girls out to the range tomorrow for some training and target shooting. I know Walt will be disappointed.



That's like putting a lightning rod in a church,  where is your faith?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> That's like putting a lightning rod in a church,  where is your faith?



I told you I'm not your typical Christian. I have complete faith but I believe in being prepared. I also believe in the 2nd amendment. My girls know how to defend themselves. Practice makes perfect. Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.


----------



## red neck richie

red neck richie said:


> I told you I'm not your typical Christian. I have complete faith but I believe in being prepared. I also believe in the 2nd amendment. My girls know how to defend themselves. Practice makes perfect. Its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.



They are actually trying to pass a bill allowing gun owners with permits to carry in church. To protect ourselves from the crazies that want to do us harm.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> They are actually trying to pass a bill allowing gun owners with permits to carry in church. To protect ourselves from the crazies that want to do us harm.



If only there was a higher power to look out for and protect its worshippers...


----------



## bullethead

Concealed carry in church...needs a belt..a belt is sort of a string,  a string that holds up your pants..pants are made of threads..threads are strings...
Richie you are a truly a medium between the spirit world and humans.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> If only there was a higher power to look for and protect its worshippers...



There is you just cant except how he works. you might have heard this one before. A police officer knocks on the door and says a hurricane is on the way you are in a flood zone you need to evacuate. The man says he's not leaving God will save me. The hurricane hits and the storm surge starts flooding his house. A man comes by in a boat and says get in I will take you to safety. The man declines and says God will save me. The flood water floods his house so he goes to the roof. A helicopter comes by and says get in. he refuses and says God will save me. Eventually the flood overtakes the house and he drowns. When he get to heaven he asks God why he didn't save him. God tells him I sent you warning, I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter. What else would you have me do?


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> There is you just cant except how he works. you might have heard this one before. A police officer knocks on the door and says a hurricane is on the way you are in a flood zone you need to evacuate. The man says he's not leaving God will save me. The hurricane hits and the storm surge starts flooding his house. A man comes by in a boat and says get in I will take you to safety. The man declines and says God will save me. The flood water floods his house so he goes to the roof. A helicopter comes by and says get in. he refuses and says God will save me. Eventually the flood overtakes the house and he drowns. When he get to heaven he asks God why he didn't save him. God tells him I sent you warning, I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter. What else would you have me do?



"Yes, No, Not Right Now"

Amen, still?

Why won't you answer my question about prayer?  If I pray to a skillet will I get an answer of "yes, no, not right now"?


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> "Yes, No, Not Right Now"
> 
> Amen, still?
> 
> Why won't you answer my question about prayer?  If I pray to a skillet will I get an answer of "yes, no, not right now"?



He doesn't work like a magic 8 ball. I think that is one of the biggest disconnects with you guys. You expect prayers to be answered on demand. you expect it to happen in some grandiose fashion so all will see. You don't think there should be any suffering you don't think there should be any pain. After all he is an all loving God why would he do that. Just because you don't understand things doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not saying I totally understand how God works. But my mind and spirit is open enough to learn.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> There is you just cant except how he works. you might have heard this one before. A police officer knocks on the door and says a hurricane is on the way you are in a flood zone you need to evacuate. The man says he's not leaving God will save me. The hurricane hits and the storm surge starts flooding his house. A man comes by in a boat and says get in I will take you to safety. The man declines and says God will save me. The flood water floods his house so he goes to the roof. A helicopter comes by and says get in. he refuses and says God will save me. Eventually the flood overtakes the house and he drowns. When he get to heaven he asks God why he didn't save him. God tells him I sent you warning, I sent you a boat, I sent you a helicopter. What else would you have me do?


Hallmark writers are great aren't they?

Or did the news crew catch that entire conversation on film?

Actually, I heard it was Allah.

That is the SAME type of story that the bible is full of. Tell them enough and people think they really happened.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> He doesn't work like a magic 8 ball. I think that is one of the biggest disconnects with you guys. You expect prayers to be answered on demand. you expect it to happen in some grandiose fashion so all will see. You don't think there should be any suffering you don't think there should be any pain. After all he is an all loving God why would he do that. Just because you don't understand things doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not saying I totally understand how God works. But my mind and spirit is open enough to learn.


All loving as in genocide all loving?

I know that somehow You are able to not only understand but speak for a god whos mind is so complex that it is uncomprehensible, so tell us how you do it.
Tell us all how you know much about something you have never met.

Is it coincidence your god thinks and acts just like you?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> All loving as in genocide all loving?
> 
> I know that somehow You are able to not only understand but speak for a god whos mind is so complex that it is uncomprehensible, so tell us how you do it.
> Tell us all how you know much about something you have never met.
> 
> Is it coincidence your god thinks and acts just like you?



Prayer. A personal relationship. He acts nothing like me. If it was me I would of told you where you could go after our first post. He gives me peace he gives me patience he shows me things in his time and his ways. By the way I've been meaning to ask you why you put up a Christmas tree with a string of Christmas lights if you don't believe Christ is the son of God. Why do you put up a symbol of his birth.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Prayer. A personal relationship. He acts nothing like me. If it was me I would of told you where you could go after our first post. He gives me peace he gives me patience he shows me things in his time and his ways. By the way I've been meaning to ask you why you put up a Christmas tree with a string of Christmas lights if you don't believe Christ is the son of God. Why do you put up a symbol of his birth.


So there were Douglas Firs covered in tinsle and blinking lights in Bethlehem?

I don't think you know nor understand the story of and history of Christmas.

You are obvioulsly uneducated about what time of the year Jesus was born. 

And you are clueless to the previous religions that the Virgin birth, Dec 25th and a couple dozen other things that the writers of the NT "borrowed" from them to use as stories for Jesus.


Dont pray for me man, use that time to research your own religion. You know very little about it.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Concealed carry in church...needs a belt..a belt is sort of a string,  a string that holds up your pants..pants are made of threads..threads are strings...
> Richie you are a truly a medium between the spirit world and humans.



I like the way your thinking now you are opening up.


----------



## bullethead

School Time For All the Christians that know everything there is to know about their Religion

Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.
In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.

The ancient Egyptians worshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.

Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs. In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder.

The “Real” Deal With Fake Christmas Trees — 

Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles.

Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.

It is not surprising that, like many other festive Christmas customs, the tree was adopted so late in America. To the New England Puritans, Christmas was sacred. The pilgrims’s second governor, William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out “pagan mockery” of the observance, penalizing any frivolity. The influential Oliver Cromwell preached against “the heathen traditions” of Christmas carols, decorated trees, and any joyful expression that desecrated “that sacred event.” In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the 19th century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy.

In 1846, the popular royals, Queen Victoria and her German Prince, Albert, were sketched in the Illustrated London News standing with their children around a Christmas tree. Unlike the previous royal family, Victoria was very popular with her subjects, and what was done at court immediately became fashionable—not only in Britain, but with fashion-conscious East Coast American Society. The Christmas tree had arrived.

By the 1890s Christmas ornaments were arriving from Germany and Christmas tree popularity was on the rise around the U.S. It was noted that Europeans used small trees about four feet in height, while Americans liked their Christmas trees to reach from floor to ceiling.

The early 20th century saw Americans decorating their trees mainly with homemade ornaments, while the German-American sect continued to use apples, nuts, and marzipan cookies. Popcorn joined in after being dyed bright colors and interlaced with berries and nuts. Electricity brought about Christmas lights, making it possible for Christmas trees to glow for days on end. With this, Christmas trees began to appear in town squares across the country and having a Christmas tree in the home became an American tradition.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> School Time For All the Christians that know everything there is to know about their Religion





I've yet to hear anyone claim to own that title, though there are a few over in the other forum that certainly portray that air about them.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I've yet to hear anyone claim to own that title, though there are a few over in the other forum that certainly portray that air about them.


Granted though, you cannot possibly know 100% of what titles all Christians have given themselves so the possibility of A, few, or many Christians that do claim to own that title certainly exists.
Right?
I mean Welder and Richie know 100%of their .0005% or at least act like they do right?

I am just holding them to the standards we all follow.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> I mean Welder and Richie know 100%of their .0005% or at least act like they do right?
> 
> I am just holding them to the standards we all follow.


But your statement did not qualify them in that category.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> But your statement did not qualify them in that category.



I only know .001% of things so in case I was mistaken, which was over 99.9%possible, I didnt want to exclude them if I was wrong.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> I only know .001% of things so in case I was mistaken, which was over 99.9%possible, I didnt want to exclude them if I was wrong.



You classified them in the "Everything there is to know about Religion"

That would be 100% knowledgeable about all Religions, including their own. I haven't heard any of them claim the title of the later, much less all of them.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You classified them in the "Everything there is to know about Religion"
> 
> That would be 100% knowledgeable about all Religions, including their own. I haven't heard any of them claim the title of the later, much less all of them.



But there are lots of things that you have not heard.
What are the percentage of things that you would say that you have not heard?


----------



## humdandy

WWJD?

Funny I thought they "J" stood for Judas......boy was I wrong......


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

humdandy said:


> WWJD?
> 
> Funny I thought they "J" stood for Judas......boy was I wrong......



The way it was overused you might not have been as wrong as you suspect.


----------



## humdandy

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The way it was overused you might not have been as wrong as you suspect.



Oh.....I was only told I was wrong.  I think I'm right.


----------



## centerpin fan

bullethead said:


> http://m.jpost.com/Christian-News/G...0QjJGQkU3MDBFMkI2REZGMEE5NUU5RTMxREIyOEFERjA=



Well, that settles it.  Buddhism, here I come!


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> But there are lots of things that you have not heard.
> What are the percentage of things that you would say that you have not heard?



That would be trying prove a negative. 

I know what I know, but more importantly I don't know what I have yet to learn. How can one be absolute of something they've yet to learn?


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> You classified them in the "Everything there is to know about Religion"
> 
> That would be 100% knowledgeable about all Religions, including their own. I haven't heard any of them claim the title of the later, much less all of them.



I said "Everything there is to know about THEIR (capitols mine) Religion."

Xmas trees must be outside of THEIR  100% of THEIR .0005% of THEIR knowledge.

What percentage of their knowledge would you say is false? Like they have the knowledge about something but their knowledge is not accurate?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> I said "Everything there is to know about THEIR (capitols mine) Religion."
> 
> Xmas trees must be outside of THEIR  100% of THEIR .0005% of THEIR knowledge.
> 
> What percentage of their knowledge would you say is false? Like they have the knowledge about something but their knowledge is not accurate?



Sorry, but re-read you're own quote. You did not include the possessive "their" you clearly stated "everything about Religion". Though you addressed them for their faith, you did not qualify the intent of your statement in the end.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> School Time For All the Christians that know everything there is to know about their Religion
> 
> Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.
> In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.
> 
> The ancient Egyptians worshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.
> 
> Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs. In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder.
> 
> The “Real” Deal With Fake Christmas Trees —
> 
> Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles.
> 
> Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.
> 
> It is not surprising that, like many other festive Christmas customs, the tree was adopted so late in America. To the New England Puritans, Christmas was sacred. The pilgrims’s second governor, William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out “pagan mockery” of the observance, penalizing any frivolity. The influential Oliver Cromwell preached against “the heathen traditions” of Christmas carols, decorated trees, and any joyful expression that desecrated “that sacred event.” In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the 19th century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy.
> 
> In 1846, the popular royals, Queen Victoria and her German Prince, Albert, were sketched in the Illustrated London News standing with their children around a Christmas tree. Unlike the previous royal family, Victoria was very popular with her subjects, and what was done at court immediately became fashionable—not only in Britain, but with fashion-conscious East Coast American Society. The Christmas tree had arrived.
> 
> By the 1890s Christmas ornaments were arriving from Germany and Christmas tree popularity was on the rise around the U.S. It was noted that Europeans used small trees about four feet in height, while Americans liked their Christmas trees to reach from floor to ceiling.
> 
> The early 20th century saw Americans decorating their trees mainly with homemade ornaments, while the German-American sect continued to use apples, nuts, and marzipan cookies. Popcorn joined in after being dyed bright colors and interlaced with berries and nuts. Electricity brought about Christmas lights, making it possible for Christmas trees to glow for days on end. With this, Christmas trees began to appear in town squares across the country and having a Christmas tree in the home became an American tradition.



Looks like I hit a nerve again. I got bullet all fired up. 
To quote my buddy Steve Erkel. Did I do that? Centerpin that was for you.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> That would be trying prove a negative.
> 
> I know what I know, but more importantly I don't know what I have yet to learn. How can one be absolute of something they've yet to learn?


Again, how do you know what you know is 100% accurate knowledge?

Same goes for what they know. 
I believe that Richie was convinced he knew about xmas trees, but it would seem to others who knew a little more about xmas trees that Richies knowledge was incomplete. 

I do have some advanced knowledge about xmas trees as I have a friend who owns a tree farm and I and all of my three Sons have helped him on the farm.
That being said I rate my knowledge of xmas trees at a 1.987% in total. Maybe a 2.0 tops.
But I feel that I know a much higher percent about those trees being associated with Christianity, but not overall about everything there is to know about all the varities of trees that are used for celebratory holidays such as xmas. I know about them as symbols but not much about the diseases that effect them etc.
But, none of that other knowledge pertains to the symbol of the tree used at xmas anyway so my knowledge in that particular area goes up. It might be a s high as 50% with the rest at my fingertips. Now I know that nobody can know the knowledge of all the Evergreen trees that may or may not exist throughout the entire universe so my knowledge
in that particular area may fall back down to a .0001 or .00015 again.

I am just trying to cover all the bases


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Looks like I hit a nerve again. I got bullet all fired up.
> To quote my buddy Steve Erkel. Did I do that? Centerpin that was for you.



No nerve hit.
I just wanted to educate you about your incorrect knowledge of a xmas tree.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> School Time For All the Christians that know everything there is to know about their Religion
> 
> Long before the advent of Christianity, plants and trees that remained green all year had a special meaning for people in the winter. Just as people today decorate their homes during the festive season with pine, spruce, and fir trees, ancient peoples hung evergreen boughs over their doors and windows. In many countries it was believed that evergreens would keep away witches, ghosts, evil spirits, and illness.
> In the Northern hemisphere, the shortest day and longest night of the year falls on December 21 or December 22 and is called the winter solstice. Many ancient people believed that the sun was a god and that winter came every year because the sun god had become sick and weak. They celebrated the solstice because it meant that at last the sun god would begin to get well. Evergreen boughs reminded them of all the green plants that would grow again when the sun god was strong and summer would return.
> 
> The ancient Egyptians worshipped a god called Ra, who had the head of a hawk and wore the sun as a blazing disk in his crown. At the solstice, when Ra began to recover from the illness, the Egyptians filled their homes with green palm rushes which symbolized for them the triumph of life over death.
> 
> Early Romans marked the solstice with a feast called the Saturnalia in honor of Saturn, the god of agriculture. The Romans knew that the solstice meant that soon farms and orchards would be green and fruitful. To mark the occasion, they decorated their homes and temples with evergreen boughs. In Northern Europe the mysterious Druids, the priests of the ancient Celts, also decorated their temples with evergreen boughs as a symbol of everlasting life. The fierce Vikings in Scandinavia thought that evergreens were the special plant of the sun god, Balder.
> 
> The “Real” Deal With Fake Christmas Trees —
> 
> Germany is credited with starting the Christmas tree tradition as we now know it in the 16th century when devout Christians brought decorated trees into their homes. Some built Christmas pyramids of wood and decorated them with evergreens and candles if wood was scarce. It is a widely held belief that Martin Luther, the 16th-century Protestant reformer, first added lighted candles to a tree. Walking toward his home one winter evening, composing a sermon, he was awed by the brilliance of stars twinkling amidst evergreens. To recapture the scene for his family, he erected a tree in the main room and wired its branches with lighted candles.
> 
> Most 19th-century Americans found Christmas trees an oddity. The first record of one being on display was in the 1830s by the German settlers of Pennsylvania, although trees had been a tradition in many German homes much earlier. The Pennsylvania German settlements had community trees as early as 1747. But, as late as the 1840s Christmas trees were seen as pagan symbols and not accepted by most Americans.
> 
> It is not surprising that, like many other festive Christmas customs, the tree was adopted so late in America. To the New England Puritans, Christmas was sacred. The pilgrims’s second governor, William Bradford, wrote that he tried hard to stamp out “pagan mockery” of the observance, penalizing any frivolity. The influential Oliver Cromwell preached against “the heathen traditions” of Christmas carols, decorated trees, and any joyful expression that desecrated “that sacred event.” In 1659, the General Court of Massachusetts enacted a law making any observance of December 25 (other than a church service) a penal offense; people were fined for hanging decorations. That stern solemnity continued until the 19th century, when the influx of German and Irish immigrants undermined the Puritan legacy.
> 
> In 1846, the popular royals, Queen Victoria and her German Prince, Albert, were sketched in the Illustrated London News standing with their children around a Christmas tree. Unlike the previous royal family, Victoria was very popular with her subjects, and what was done at court immediately became fashionable—not only in Britain, but with fashion-conscious East Coast American Society. The Christmas tree had arrived.
> 
> By the 1890s Christmas ornaments were arriving from Germany and Christmas tree popularity was on the rise around the U.S. It was noted that Europeans used small trees about four feet in height, while Americans liked their Christmas trees to reach from floor to ceiling.
> 
> The early 20th century saw Americans decorating their trees mainly with homemade ornaments, while the German-American sect continued to use apples, nuts, and marzipan cookies. Popcorn joined in after being dyed bright colors and interlaced with berries and nuts. Electricity brought about Christmas lights, making it possible for Christmas trees to glow for days on end. With this, Christmas trees began to appear in town squares across the country and having a Christmas tree in the home became an American tradition.



Bullet Thanks for the history lesson. Modern Christians use the Christmas tree as a symbol of the spirit of Christmas and the birth of Christ. Its good to learn from our past but it is also good to live in the now. And while we are at it you didn't specify why you put one up. Was it a reason you listed in your lesson?


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Sorry, but re-read you're own quote. You did not include the possessive "their" you clearly stated "everything about Religion". Though you addressed them for their faith, you did not qualify the intent of your statement in the end.



Yep, but it is not my fault.
My knowledge of qualifying the intent is not 100%.
I THOUGHT this was good enough.



bullethead said:


> School Time For All the Christians that know everything there is to know about their Religion


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> As a Christian I would equate my knowledge of the Bible and God about the same as your claim to general knowledge,





ambush80 said:


> Can you talk about how general knowledge is acquired?  How about knowledge of God and the Bible?  How are the methods different and how are they the same?



(Emoji eating popcorn)


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet Thanks for the history lesson. Modern Christians use the Christmas tree as a symbol of the spirit of Christmas and the birth of Christ. Its good to learn from our past but it is also good to live in the now. And while we are at it you didn't specify why you put one up. Was it a reason you listed in your lesson?



You are welcome.
My wife is a Christian.
2 of my sons graduated from a Catholic High School.
One son taught school at a Catholic Elementary school.
I was raised Protestant and lived that Christian lifestyle for 20 years.

But, the tree was up and goes up because we all like to decorate a tree.
Its what we all did from when we were young.

Why do you put one up and exchange gifts?
Do you allow you children to believe in Santa?
If so why?


----------



## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Sorry guys I wont be able to make it I am taking the girls out to the range tomorrow for some training and target shooting. I know Walt will be disappointed.


I would have just ignored the race that's all.
Where do you go target shooting?


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> (Emoji eating popcorn)



We are all still waiting on a multitude of questions to be answered.
Lots of popcorn to be popped.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> You are welcome.
> My wife is a Christian.
> 2 of my sons graduated from a Catholic High School.
> One son taught school at a Catholic Elementary school.
> I was raised Protestant and lived that Christian lifestyle for 20 years.
> 
> But, the tree was up and goes up because we all like to decorate a tree.
> Its what we all did from when we were young.
> 
> Why do you put one up and exchange gifts?
> Do you allow you children to believe in Santa?
> If so why?



Look it up your the historian. You should be telling me about the German St. Nicholas.


----------



## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> I would have just ignored the race that's all.
> Where do you go target shooting?



I have 5 acres of land in Oglethorpe county my uncle left me. I have a camp set up on it with a range set up for target practice. If you are close by pm me and we can go shoot. I also have a 20ft center console and fish Lanier a lot if you are close by pm me and I  will get you out of that pretty kayak.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Look it up your the historian. You should be telling me about the German St. Nicholas.



I searched for the history of red neck richie and didn't find anything so that is why I asked the source directly. 

Listen, I get it, you try to avoid giving the answers that you know you might have to tell the truth for because they go against what you want them to be.

You are as disingenous as you claim us to be.

You claim on your own power you wouldnt even bother to converse with us but God drives you to do it. That might be true right up until you are asked about something you rather not admit to, then God must be riding shotgun and snoozing while you do the driving.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I searched for the history of red neck richie and didn't find anything so that is why I asked the source directly.
> 
> Listen, I get it, you try to avoid giving the answers that you know you might have to tell the truth for because they go against what you want them to be.
> 
> You are as disingenous as you claim us to be.
> 
> You claim on your own power you wouldnt even bother to converse with us but God drives you to do it. That might be true right up until you are asked about something you rather not admit to, then God must be riding shotgun and snoozing while you do the driving.



Once again not true. I would converse with you but I wouldn't  be so patient or polite. I would tell you to get your head out of some where and open your eyes but that wouldn't be Christian like would it. God does show me the errors of my ways.


----------



## bullethead

Rich here's the deal.  If you and I shared a hunting camp together, we had never previously met or talked in here and the subject of religion never came up at camp, we would get along just fine.
I don't have a doubt that we would still get along even now.
Id be willing to bet that we have more in common than not.
And that goes for the vast majority of the people that participate in here.

I find that religion is more of a divider than a uniter. Its all about peace and love, unless you dont agree with my religion then its war.
Kind of like the dems and the 1st amendment.  Preach freedom of speech until you dont agree with what they are saying, then they tell you shut up.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Once again not true. I would converse with you but I wouldn't  be so patient or polite. I would tell you to get your head out of some where and open your eyes but that wouldn't be Christian like would it. God does show me the errors of my ways.


I would respect the other style more. It's not phony.
I would normally counter you with the same style. How can I have such restraint without being a Christian?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Once again not true. I would converse with you but I wouldn't  be so patient or polite. I would tell you to get your head out of some where and open your eyes but that wouldn't be Christian like would it. God does show me the errors of my ways.


And...
That doesn't explain why or excuse you from avoiding all the hard questions that you  continually pass over.


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Rich here's the deal.  If you and I shared a hunting camp together, we had never previously met or talked in here and the subject of religion never came up at camp, we would get along just fine.
> I don't have a doubt that we would still get along even now.
> Id be willing to bet that we have more in common than not.
> And that goes for the vast majority of the people that participate in here.
> 
> I find that religion is more of a divider than a uniter. Its all about peace and love, unless you dont agree with my religion then its war.
> Kind of like the dems and the 1st amendment.  Preach freedom of speech until you dont agree with what they are saying, then they tell you shut up.



Agreed. We have common ground in that statement. But you and I don't agree on religion and I wish you nothing but the best.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Agreed. We have common ground in that statement. But you and I don't agree on religion and I wish you nothing but the best.



And the best to you also.


Just think about this:
I have been with the same woman since I am 15 years old. Never cheated on her or raised a hand to her. Raised 3 sons. Never abused them or treated them harshly. All are adults now and successful. Had/have 2 successful businesses that I run honestly. Never been in trouble with the law. Dont smoke. Dont drink except in very minor moderation like a beer or two a month would be the upper end. I have been a great husband, father and son. I am well respected within my community and have never had a known enemy.
I am not bragging. I am proud of my accomplishments.
How can I turn out to be a decent human being without divine intervention?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> (Emoji eating popcorn)



What are your guesses, suspicions?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You are welcome.
> My wife is a Christian.
> 2 of my sons graduated from a Catholic High School.
> One son taught school at a Catholic Elementary school.
> I was raised Protestant and lived that Christian lifestyle for 20 years.
> 
> But, the tree was up and goes up because we all like to decorate a tree.
> Its what we all did from when we were young.
> 
> Why do you put one up and exchange gifts?
> Do you allow you children to believe in Santa?
> If so why?



I didn't know your wife was a Christian. I bet the two of you have some interesting conversations.(to be a fly on that wall).
Do you ask her these same questions you ask us?
If so,are her answers similar to ours?


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> What are your guesses, suspicions?



In my experience and from the podcast/videos that this thread is based on (Did you review any of the material?) I suspect that some of the knowledge that you have about God you would describe as coming from revelation.  We've spent alot of the last half of this thread talking to Richie and Welder about revelation.  

1. We firmly established that revelation is personal. 

2. We established that people who receive revelation believe that they got it from the one true God that they believe in and the revelation that others get is false or from the Devil.

This thread is about trying to examining how people decide what they believe is true.  Peterson and Harris disagree on what the definition of true is, as do the people who made videos and comments in response to the podcast.

I think it's clear that Harris' definition fits the practical and  historically accepted idea of what truth is.  Peterson offered a new, personal definition of truth because he knew that in talking with Harris that the issue of religious belief would come up and that it couldn't be defended as being true using the OED definition of truth.  I believe that's called "moving the goalposts" in debate parlance.  

If we accept Peterson's (and Welder's and Ritchie's and my Mom's) definition of truth based on revelation, we are lost in a morass.  

As an aside, would you be willing to take the challenge I put forth and give your three best arguments _against_ the existence of God, or your particular God?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> And the best to you also.
> 
> 
> Just think about this:
> I have been with the same woman since I am 15 years old. Never cheated on her or raised a hand to her. Raised 3 sons. Never abused them or treated them harshly. All are adults now and successful. Had/have 2 successful businesses that I run honestly. Never been in trouble with the law. Dont smoke. Dont drink except in very minor moderation like a beer or two a month would be the upper end. I have been a great husband, father and son. I am well respected within my community and have never had a known enemy.
> I am not bragging. I am proud of my accomplishments.
> How can I turn out to be a decent human being without divine intervention?



Sounds like you've got your cup pretty clean on the outside.(for this I commend you)
But are you able to see that the inside needs some attention?


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Sounds like you've got your cup pretty clean on the outside.(for this I commend you)
> But are you able to see that the inside needs some attention?



Let me offer a challenge to you.  Examine how you view Bullet as somehow wanting "inside" because he doesn't believe Christ is Lord.  Does it make you sad for him?  Does it make you feel glad that you and yours are "Saved by His grace"?   

Let me remind you that you don't even know him.

What do you think are the implications of your beliefs in regards to how you navigate through the public sphere.  How do they make you view others and yourself?


----------



## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> He doesn't work like a magic 8 ball. I think that is one of the biggest disconnects with you guys. You expect prayers to be answered on demand. you expect it to happen in some grandiose fashion so all will see. You don't think there should be any suffering you don't think there should be any pain. After all he is an all loving God why would he do that. Just because you don't understand things doesn't mean they don't exist. I'm not saying I totally understand how God works. But my mind and spirit is open enough to learn.



I expect prayers to anything including a frying pan to result in a "yes, no, not right now" answer. 

It's really a lack of an answer as talking to a frying pan has no ability to affect the future as far as anyone can tell. Still, something will happen to me in regards to my "prayer".  There will be a desired outcome ("yes" answer), a negative outcome ("no" answer), or nothing will happen either way (a "not right now" answer).  

Interestingly, a "no" answer (your loved one who you prayed for dies) will often be rationalized as "God's will was done.  He had a good reason that we may never understand for her suffering".  Also, an event tangentially related to the initial prayer might be seen as God's "sideways" answer to the prayer.

From the point of view of the believer, God's will is ALWAYS done no matter what happens and in that way the believer can take comfort in the fact that God has the situation under control no matter how heinous the situation is.  Isn't that what it's all about, aligning your world view in such a way as to give you meaning, assurance, and comfort; truth not withstanding?

So do I understand prayer or not?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Sounds like you've got your cup pretty clean on the outside.(for this I commend you)
> But are you able to see that the inside needs some attention?



You don't end up with a mighty oak by planting onions.
The outside is a proven representative of my inside.

Can't have one without the other.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> You don't end up with a mighty oak by planting onions.
> The outside is a proven representative of my inside.
> 
> Can't have one without the other.



What if the mighty oak has a disease that causes its trunk to be rotten on the inside?

(not saying YOU are rotten on your inside; God alone knows.)


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Let me offer a challenge to you.  Examine how you view Bullet as somehow wanting "inside" because he doesn't believe Christ is Lord.  Does it make you sad for him?  Does it make you feel glad that you and yours are "Saved by His grace"?
> 
> Let me remind you that you don't even know him.
> 
> What do you think are the implications of your beliefs in regards to how you navigate through the public sphere.  How do they make you view others and yourself?



If you are asking if I look down on some and esteem others because of my beliefs, I can only say I sure hope not, and I do not intend to consciously. I simply do not know for sure who God's called are, so I try to keep that in mind when navigating through the public sphere.
Even if a person is acting like a heathen today, tomorrow God may call him out of that darkness.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> What if the mighty oak has a disease that causes its trunk to be rotten on the inside?
> 
> (not saying YOU are rotten on your inside; God alone knows.)



What if...

I let my life speak for itself.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If you are asking if I look down on some and esteem others because of my beliefs, I can only say I sure hope not, and I do not intend to consciously. I simply do not know for sure who God's called are, so I try to keep that in mind when navigating through the public sphere.
> Even if a person is acting like a heathen today, tomorrow God may call him out of that darkness.


That is the rally cry of many heathens.


----------



## welderguy

Bullet,
post # 724


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Bullet,
> post # 724



I can pick out at least a dozen direct questions that both you and richie have purposely skipped over in this thread alone.

When are you going to step up?


My wife is well aware of my stance and I am of  hers.
I hold her to the same standards that I hold everyone else.
She has not been the same since she watched her mother die and you are well aware of that story and my relationship with her.

Now return the respect and flip through the last 650 posts and answer my direct questions to you.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> What if...
> 
> I let my life speak for itself.



I wouldn't wish anything less of you.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I wouldn't wish anything less of you.



How can I have such standards and accomplishments and be well liked without being a Christian?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> How can I have such standards and accomplishments and be well liked without being a Christian?



Do you think God only blesses Christians?
Do you think your "accomplishments" are strictly your own?
Did it ever occur to you that sometimes people like other people in spite of their undesirable traits?


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do you think God only blesses Christians?
> Do you think your "accomplishments" are strictly your own?
> Did it ever occur to you that sometimes people like other people in spite of their undesirable traits?


I dont even think anything blesses Christians.

Lots of factors contribute to my accomplishments. 
Upbringing, genetics, society, the will for me to set examples for my Sons being a few.

It sure has occured to me. That is why I continue to talk to you.


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> Sounds like you've got your cup pretty clean on the outside.(for this I commend you)
> But are you able to see that the inside needs some attention?


And there, in a nutshell, is how your religion teaches you to view other people.
Its sad.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I dont even think anything blesses Christians.
> 
> Lots of factors contribute to my accomplishments.
> Upbringing, genetics, society, the will for me to set examples for my Sons being a few.
> 
> It sure has occured to me. That is why I continue to talk to you.



Do you consider yourself to be a humble person?(not that it matters)


----------



## welderguy

WaltL1 said:


> And there, in a nutshell, is how your religion teaches you to view other people.
> Its sad.



It would truly be sad if there wasn't One Who is a master at making things spotless.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Do you consider yourself to be a humble person?(not that it matters)



I am extremely humble until I am pushed.

I have no problem telling it like it is, but only after I hear enough to know the other person is not honest.

I figure if they are not bashful to say it, I am not bashful to call them out on it.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> I am extremely humble until I am pushed.
> 
> I have no problem telling it like it is, but only after I hear enough to know the other person is not honest.
> 
> I figure if they are not bashful to say it, I am not bashful to call them out on it.



Have I been dishonestly pushy?
If so,how?


----------



## WaltL1

welderguy said:


> It would truly be sad if there wasn't One Who is a master at making things spotless.


I'm sure, in your mind, that response actually means something.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Have I been dishonestly pushy?
> If so,how?



Welder you avoid questions constantly even when asked multiple times so there was no mistake that you just missed them.

You do not use evidence that is acceptable anywhere reality is used.

You argue from ignorance.

Basically EVERYTHING that I constantly bring to your attention are the causes.

I have no problem with people making claims when they can back them up.
I WANT you to back them up. The reason I am in here is to find ONE person that their god elects with the gift to be able to prove their god to me.
So far in here, and in 27 years of searching,  zip.

I would be the first to be honest enough to accept actual factual evidence. Dont fool yourself into thinking that you have proved your points and I do not accept them because I would have to admit I am wrong.  It is quite the contrary. 

I am under the impression that something so true as the creator of truth, something that exemplifies truth and knowledge would not and could not be so elusive.

I am looking at all of it objectively. I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong and I am honest enough to not settle for anything but the most accurate examples of evidence that leaves me with zero doubt.

You have been unable to sway me towards your beliefs, in fact, you have done more to provide examples to me of why I cannot find evidence of any specific god let alone the god you speak of.


----------



## bullethead

I am taking richies advice and heading to the range.


----------



## bullethead

300 rnds later. Soul cleansed .


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> 300 rnds later. Soul cleansed .



Just got back myself. Maybe not a soul cleanser but definitely a stress reliever. My daughter says she liked shooting my AR-15 the best. And she's a great shot we had a great day.


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Just got back myself. Maybe not a soul cleanser but definitely a stress reliever. My daughter says she liked shooting my AR-15 the best. And she's a great shot we had a great day.


That is awesome.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder you avoid questions constantly even when asked multiple times so there was no mistake that you just missed them.
> 
> You do not use evidence that is acceptable anywhere reality is used.
> 
> You argue from ignorance.
> 
> Basically EVERYTHING that I constantly bring to your attention are the causes.
> 
> I have no problem with people making claims when they can back them up.
> I WANT you to back them up. The reason I am in here is to find ONE person that their god elects with the gift to be able to prove their god to me.
> So far in here, and in 27 years of searching,  zip.
> 
> I would be the first to be honest enough to accept actual factual evidence. Dont fool yourself into thinking that you have proved your points and I do not accept them because I would have to admit I am wrong.  It is quite the contrary.
> 
> I am under the impression that something so true as the creator of truth, something that exemplifies truth and knowledge would not and could not be so elusive.
> 
> I am looking at all of it objectively. I am humble enough to admit when I am wrong and I am honest enough to not settle for anything but the most accurate examples of evidence that leaves me with zero doubt.
> 
> You have been unable to sway me towards your beliefs, in fact, you have done more to provide examples to me of why I cannot find evidence of any specific god let alone the god you speak of.



To the best of my knowledge, the only time I don't address a question is when I see no reason behind beating the dead horse with you. You have proven to blatantly reject spiritual matters.There are many responses I would make that would only fall on deaf ears.You claim to be open to all evidence of proof, but if that evidence is spiritual you are anything but open to it.

Having said all of that, bring any of those questions back to my attention and we will try again.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> To the best of my knowledge, the only time I don't address a question is when I see no reason behind beating the dead horse with you. You have proven to blatantly reject spiritual matters.There are many responses I would make that would only fall on deaf ears.You claim to be open to all evidence of proof, but if that evidence is spiritual you are anything but open to it.
> 
> Having said all of that, bring any of those questions back to my attention and we will try again.


Welder, we cant talk spiritual until you prove spirits.
You try to prove the make believe with the imaginable.

You have to provide tangible evidence of one before we can talk about the other.

To me it is no different than you rejecting proof of Allah because someone reads a passage in the koran and then backs it up with their inner feelings.

Half the threads would have to be reposted due to the amount of questions you purposely ignore. You can sift through this thread alone to start.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Welder, we cant talk spiritual until you prove spirits.
> You try to prove the make believe with the imaginable.
> 
> You have to provide tangible evidence of one before we can talk about the other.
> 
> To me it is no different than you rejecting proof of Allah because someone reads a passage in the koran and then backs it up with their inner feelings.
> 
> Half the threads would have to be reposted due to the amount of questions you purposely ignore. You can sift through this thread alone to start.



I don't see you and I ever being able to discuss anything that doesn't involve the 5 senses. You say you are open to a God, but God is spiritual. And you reject the spiritual, so that's a real roadblock to the conversation.


----------



## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> I expect prayers to anything including a frying pan to result in a "yes, no, not right now" answer.
> 
> It's really a lack of an answer as talking to a frying pan has no ability to affect the future as far as anyone can tell. Still, something will happen to me in regards to my "prayer".  There will be a desired outcome ("yes" answer), a negative outcome ("no" answer), or nothing will happen either way (a "not right now" answer).
> 
> Interestingly, a "no" answer (your loved one who you prayed for dies) will often be rationalized as "God's will was done.  He had a good reason that we may never understand for her suffering".  Also, an event tangentially related to the initial prayer might be seen as God's "sideways" answer to the prayer.
> 
> From the point of view of the believer, God's will is ALWAYS done no matter what happens and in that way the believer can take comfort in the fact that God has the situation under control no matter how heinous the situation is.  Isn't that what it's all about, aligning your world view in such a way as to give you meaning, assurance, and comfort; truth not withstanding?
> 
> So do I understand prayer or not?



No Ambush you do not understand prayer. It is a personal relationship with God that you lack. If you think you can get the same thing by praying to a pan tells me you don't know him.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> I don't see you and I ever being able to discuss anything that doesn't involve the 5 senses. You say you are open to a God, but God is spiritual. And you reject the spiritual, so that's a real roadblock to the conversation.


Are you saying that your god is incapable of presenting itself to me on a way that I would understand or could relate to?
A voice?
An Apparition?
A visit in the flesh?
Burning bush?
Talking donkey?
Can I be the 501st witness?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Are you saying that your god is incapable of presenting itself to me on a way that I would understand or could relate to?
> A voice?
> An Apparition?
> A visit in the flesh?
> Burning bush?
> Talking donkey?
> Can I be the 501st witness?



He certainly can. It's through His Spirit.(uh-oh roadblock)
He did that to me. You can believe me on that or not, but it is as true as I'm breathing.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> He certainly can. It's through His Spirit.(uh-oh roadblock)
> He did that to me. You can believe me on that or not, but it is as true as I'm breathing.



So I am standing on the other side of a roadblock and am wondering if your god can remove that roadblock for me?
Can it get around or over that roadblock to reach me?
What rule prevents your god from contacting me directly and circumventing the spirit thing?

Now I can believe you but to do so I would also have to believe every other person in every other religion that uses the proof of "it is as true as I am breathing".
I almost can barely think of 4 or 5 thousand other things that would be more convincing, but I have to draw the line somewhere.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So I am standing on the other side of a roadblock and am wondering if your god can remove that roadblock for me?
> Can it get around or over that roadblock to reach me?
> What rule prevents your god from contacting me directly and circumventing the spirit thing?
> 
> Now I can believe you but to do so I would also have to believe every other person in every other religion that uses the proof of "it is as true as I am breathing".
> I almost can barely think of 4 or 5 thousand other things that would be more convincing, but I have to draw the line somewhere.



No silly, the roadblock I was referring to was in our conversation,I mentioned it earlier.
There is no roadblock for the Spirit. He goes wherever He will to ALL that the Father has given Him.
Until the Spirit breathes on you, you cannot believe. You may never believe. You say you were once a believer, but it's apparent that it was only intellectually and not spiritually. Because when something else came along that in your mind made more sense(less foolish), you rejected what you formerly "believed".


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> No silly, the roadblock I was referring to was in our conversation,I mentioned it earlier.
> There is no roadblock for the Spirit. He goes wherever He will to ALL that the Father has given Him.
> Until the Spirit breathes on you, you cannot believe. You may never believe. You say you were once a believer, but it's apparent that it was only intellectually and not spiritually. Because when something else came along that in your mind made more sense(less foolish), you rejected what you formerly "believed".


So the Spirit is independent of god?
I always was under the impression that The Trinity was all the same.

Welder, 27 years ago I sounded just like you and your irrational excuses. Please do not insult your own inelligence by trying to Dr.St. Phil me about how I formerly was.

Add that to the list of your dishonestly pushy ways.


----------



## bullethead

So welder, getting back to your "its as true as I am breathing" evidence...
Does that evidence hold true for all believers in all religions that say the same thing?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So the Spirit is independent of god?
> I always was under the impression that The Trinity was all the same.
> 
> Welder, 27 years ago I sounded just like you and your irrational excuses. Please do not insult your own inelligence by trying to Dr.St. Phil me about how I formerly was.
> 
> Add that to the list of your dishonestly pushy ways.



The three are one. Same God, three ways.

Just calling it like I HONESTLY see it.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> The three are one. Same God, three ways.
> 
> Just calling it like I HONESTLY see it.





> He goes wherever He will to ALL that the Father has given Him.



So the Father sends himself wherever the Father wills himself to go that he has given himself.

And then you break it it down into a more romantic sounding pile so it doesn't sound as stupid. 
If you see it that honestly you should honestly be able to see that have a problem.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So welder, getting back to your "its as true as I am breathing" evidence...
> Does that evidence hold true for all believers in all religions that say the same thing?



No.( for about the 348th time)

Jesus is the only way to eternal life. He is the only one that can cause the dead to live.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> So the Father sends himself wherever the Father wills himself to go that he has given himself.
> 
> And then you break it it down into a more romantic sounding pile so it doesn't sound as stupid.
> If you see it that honestly you should honestly be able to see that have a problem.



If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father.
Does that make more sense to you? I Doubt it. But oh well.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> No.( for about the 348th time)
> 
> Jesus is the only way to eternal life. He is the only one that can cause the dead to live.


Then you can see why I dont believe you either


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father.
> Does that make more sense to you? I Doubt it. But oh well.



"He goes wherever He will to ALL that the Father has given Him"
I am just using you own exact words...
It must have sounded bad to you too if you had to rephrase it.


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Then you can see why I dont believe you either



Because you are  spiritually dead?


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> "He goes wherever He will to ALL that the Father has given Him"
> I am just using you own exact words...
> It must have sounded bad to you too if you had to rephrase it.



Not bad at all.Both true.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Because you are  spiritually dead?



Because for the reasons you find all the others beliefs false,  I find yours equally as false.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> Not bad at all.Both true.



Says The argument from ignorance expert


----------



## welderguy

bullethead said:


> Because for the reasons you find all the others beliefs false,  I find yours equally as false.



None of the others have Jesus. That's why.


----------



## bullethead

welderguy said:


> None of the others have Jesus. That's why.



And you are full circle to the first unprovable claim.
And so the conversation goes....

Let me know when you have something that will impress me.

Im gonna clean some Glocks.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> 1. We firmly established that revelation is personal.


When you come upon something you never new before but are amazed, impressed, intrigued, is that not a "personal" revelation for you?



ambush80 said:


> 2. We established that people who receive revelation believe that they got it from the one true God that they believe in and the revelation that others get is false or from the Devil.


What does it matter the source of the "revelation"? To humor your question, Christians vet the source of "revelations" newly learned by comparing them to the scripture for the vetting of the truth. Just as you may use other sources to vet whatever new thing you learn in order to verify they are possible.

How do we vet NASA's claim that an EmDrive engine, which violates every theory of Newton's Laws of Physics, will actually work? 



ambush80 said:


> If we accept Peterson's (and Welder's and Ritchie's and my Mom's) definition of truth based on revelation, we are lost in a morass.


That is an abstract argument. Why would I presume to compare a man's opinion, though he has written a few books, from just a few years ago to a text that has stood the test of time for possibly 3000 years, according to science, not my opinion.

http://www.livescience.com/8008-bible-possibly-written-centuries-earlier-text-suggests.html



ambush80 said:


> As an aside, would you be willing to take the challenge I put forth and give your three best arguments _against_ the existence of God, or your particular God?



I don't debate God, Time or Wind. What's the point?
What you believe is your business, I see no point in arguing what I believe through my life experiences vs what you believe. There are no winners in such a debate.

Are your challenges rooted in trying to convert a Christian? or in hopes of finding there is an omnipotent God?

What is your point in issuing such challenges, other than antagonistic motives?


----------



## bullethead

Mig, What is the point of a person going on any forum and discussing things?


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> When you come upon something you never new before but are amazed, impressed, intrigued, is that not a "personal" revelation for you?



Can we agree to use this definition going forward, since it's the one pertinent to the sub-forum?

_"2.
the divine or supernatural disclosure to humans of something relating to human existence or the world."_

I've never had a confirmable revelation of this type.  I used to think that I heard God talking to me but I realized that it was indistinguishable from my own thoughts.  



Miguel Cervantes said:


> What does it matter the source of the "revelation"? To humor your question, Christians vet the source of "revelations" newly learned by comparing them to the scripture for the vetting of the truth. Just as you may use other sources to vet whatever new thing you learn in order to verify they are possible.



Scripture is the only way to confirm all the supernatural claims found in.....SCRIPTURE.  Does that sound like good vetting to you?



Miguel Cervantes said:


> How do we vet NASA's claim that an EmDrive engine, which violates every theory of Newton's Laws of Physics, will actually work?



Build the sucker.  It's all talk until you can put your hands on it and it flies.




Miguel Cervantes said:


> That is an abstract argument. Why would I presume to compare a man's opinion, though he has written a few books, from just a few years ago to a text that has stood the test of time for possibly 3000 years, according to science, not my opinion.
> 
> http://www.livescience.com/8008-bible-possibly-written-centuries-earlier-text-suggests.html



I know you're not hinging the validity of the Bible on it's age.  There are religious books way older than the Bible. Welder would say "Well, they don't have Jesus" to which someone will reply to his deaf ears "Well, you don't have Zoroaster!".



Miguel Cervantes said:


> I don't debate God, Time or Wind. What's the point?
> What you believe is your business, I see no point in arguing what I believe through my life experiences vs what you believe. There are no winners in such a debate.
> 
> Are your challenges rooted in trying to convert a Christian? or in hopes of finding there is an omnipotent God?
> 
> What is your point in issuing such challenges, other than antagonistic motives?



If you don't debate God then you can't play in the "Prove What You Believe" sandbox.  

I want to hear your life experiences that point you towards God.  If that's the best proof you have then put it out there.  I want to know what's true.  I want to understand how people get to their concepts of truth.  Honestly, do get "antagonism" from me, not genuine curiosity?  

An answer from a Christian that would reflect what I believe to be true would be:

"I know that my beliefs don't make logical sense."

"I know that my version of truth isn't the one in the dictionary, it comes from a personal place."

"I know that people of all other religions have come to their conclusions the same way that I have to mine."

"I realize that what I believe can't be confirmed to be true. (same with Multiverse theory, by the way, though the methods of reaching those conclusions are vastly different)."

"I realize that the methods that I've used to come to my conclusions aren't scientific."

Believers who can admit those things and still maintain their faith are beyond reproach and not subject to Apologist debate.  It's pride that causes someone to argue the inarguable.  It's humility to say "I don't know". When people come in here and assert something to be true they will have to prove it with methods in line with Apologetics.


----------



## ambush80

I would find satisfaction in having a conversation with someone who struggled with the same issues about faith that I did and came to a different conclusion using the same methods of reason and rationality.  Peterson came close and that's what I, and many other non-believers find engaging about him.  I still don't buy what he's selling but his understanding of and ability to expound on the utility of God and Christianity is compelling to me.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> That would be trying prove a negative.
> 
> I know what I know, but more importantly I don't know what I have yet to learn. How can one be absolute of something they've yet to learn?


“You can’t prove a negative.”


People who are searching for excuses to believe silly things frequently make this statement.  A theist makes a positive assertion, and then declines to provide a basis for it.  You deny their assertion (rightly so, what with no basis and all), but your denial is deemed invalid because it is impossible to prove a denial.

There is so very much wrong with this situation, it will take a while to wade through it.

The rules of logic and science indicate that there must be some kind of basis (either in substance or in thought) for an assertion or else it must be denied.  An assertion, without evidence, is not accepted as true.  That is the default position, the position that defines what critical thought is.  Critical thought means not believing things you are told unless there is evidence to back it up.  And without critical thought, logic and science are abandoned, and this is the only kind of productive thought humanity has ever come up with.  To reject critical thought is to turn one’s back on thinking and embrace the Dark Ages.  That’s the answer to this statement in theory.

However, in practice, there is usually a lot more happening with the person who makes such a proclamation.  The person who makes this kind of statement has a great many fundamental misunderstandings about the nature of logic, science, and productive thought.

First, many people who believe in God do not realize that in every discussion about theism, their assertion is implicit: God exists.  They do not need to say it.  Every argument they make is under the assumption that the statement “God exists” is true.  The fact that they identify themselves as believers is enough to serve as an assertion that a deity or deities exists.  No assertion is being made by an atheist (at least not a smart atheist).  The word “god” hasn’t even been defined and the nature of belief in that god has not been described; these must take place before any substantial discussion about the nature of God can begin.  Atheists have no reason to provide these descriptions – without any beliefs about God, they have no reason to do so.  It must be presumed that this onus rests upon the theist.  The mere mention of one’s belief in God serves as an assertion that God exists.

Secondly, a person who rejects an assertion does not need to provide any justification for it.  The evidence has to be provided by the party making the assertion.  The person rejecting the assertion needs to provide nothing at all.  Many theists try to escape this basic fact of life by declaring (in opposition to common sense) that their assertions need to be justified only to themselves in their personal experience.  Simply put, that what is true for others might not be true for themselves.  But this is madness – this also turns its back on productive thinking.  This idea is called “solipsism,” and it refers to the notion that every person lives in his own reality, and what is true in his or her life might not be true for others.  This is an old idea and it was shown to be ridiculous many centuries ago.  Think about it – if it solipsism really was real, there wouldn’t be any books, schools, learning, or science.  And people would never be able to communicate effectively.

Thirdly, the statement that “you cannot prove a negative” is simply false.  On the surface, it seems to be true: if Person A says “I think God exists” and Person B says “I don’t think God exists,” it’s pretty clear that Person B is going to have a hard time proving that there isn’t a God.  However, if you look a little closer, it actually depends on the nature of the negative statement being made.  Here are some negative statements that can be proven very easily:

Five is not equal to four
The ancient Egyptians did not watch Seinfeld
The tsetse fly is not native to North America

Clearly, it’s possible to prove a negative statement.  The real problem here is clearly the nature of the positive statement being refuted.  When a person asserts that God exists, he does not specify the nature of God – that is, is God small, large, blue, red?  And where is he?  Of course it is not possible to prove that God does not exist, if “God” is a thing that has no definition, no characteristics, and no location.  In fact, you can prove just about any kind of negative you can think of – except for (surprise!) the non-existence of mystical beings.  When you get right down to it, the statement “you cannot prove a negative” is really just a different way of saying “You can’t prove me wrong because I don’t even know what I’m talking about.”

Logical statements have to abide by certain rules and restrictions.  In order for a statement to be logical, it must be falsifiable, which means that it has to be presented in such a way that it could be proven incorrect.  A statement is not logical if it cannot be tested to make sure it is true.  The existence of God is not a logical question at all, and is therefore nonsensical.  Of course you can’t prove that God doesn’t exist – no one even knows what God is supposed to be.
~graveyardofthegods.com


----------



## ambush80

Good cut and paste.  Very concise and informative.  It would be useful to discuss each paragraph in detail.



bullethead said:


> When you get right down to it, the statement “you cannot prove a negative” is really just a different way of saying “You can’t prove me wrong because I don’t even know what I’m talking about.”





Add this to the list of what believers should openly admit to.


----------



## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> Good cut and paste.  Very concise and informative.  It would be useful to discuss each paragraph in detail.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Add this to the list of what believers should openly admit to.



The C/Ps  certainly provide a valuable source of getting information in here that would normally be overlooked or not quite worded the way (at least I) wanted.


----------



## ambush80

For right now I would be content to focus on the method of gathering information from revelation ("revelation" that I cited).  What does it look, sound, feel, smell, taste like?  If it's sensed with some other method, what is that method and how is it revealed? What organ senses and deciphers revelation?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> For right now I would be content to focus on the method of gathering information from revelation ("revelation" that I cited).  What does it look, sound, feel, smell, taste like?  If it's sensed with some other method, what is that method and how is it revealed? What organ senses and deciphers revelation?



hint:
not an organ but the spirit.

Tell me everything you know about the spirit.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> If you don't debate God then you can't play in the "Prove What You Believe" sandbox.


There is nothing that mandates I do so, especially on an internet forum. 

You guys are constantly challenging everyone else's belief in order to validate your own, as if by trying to convince us it helps you to believe in yours a little bit more.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There is nothing that mandates I do so, especially on an internet forum.
> 
> You guys are constantly challenging everyone else's belief in order to validate your own, as if by trying to convince us it helps you to believe in yours a little bit more.



Isnt that why everyone participates in forums that interest them?
I come here because very few forums have an AAA section.
I like to discuss things with like minded individuals and also want to hear something that can change my thoughts by others. The constant challenge to my thoughts is worth it.

I know you participate in the political forum and correct me if I am wrong but you are not the middle of the road guy in there.
Just so happens that in that forum I agree with dang near everything you say. 
But , there are a few guys in there that you do not show any mercy to. Why?

Id guess same reasons we are in here.


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There is nothing that mandates I do so, especially on an internet forum.



You're right.  Talk about bass fishing.  Start a thread in here about Springtime crappie action on light tackle or baby back ribs on the Big Green Egg. Maybe it won't get moved.  



Miguel Cervantes said:


> You guys are constantly challenging everyone else's belief in order to validate your own, as if by trying to convince us it helps you to believe in yours a little bit more.



I'm actually dying for someone to come along and blow my mind.  You have a very narrow view of what people want out of these conversations.  Try to be more positive.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> hint:
> not an organ but the spirit.
> 
> Tell me everything you know about the spirit.



It's a concept that has it's origins in animism.  It posits that there's an "essence", "energy", incorporeal element of living things that's immeasurable, invisible, incomprehensible and eternal.  Sometimes it's believed that it retains our personality and consciousness after physical death and is sent to another dimension.  Others believe that it's a part of a greater whole that returns to its origin and reintegrates, shedding all parts of its prior existence.

I personally feel that if we gain the ability to transport our physical matter from one place to another like in Star Trek that the spirit might not get sent along with.   

Your turn.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> You're right.  Talk about bass fishing.  Start a thread in here about Springtime crappie action on light tackle or baby back ribs on the Big Green Egg. Maybe it won't get moved.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually dying for someone to come along and blow my mind.  You have a very narrow view of what people want out of these conversations.  Try to be more positive.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> But , there are a few guys in there that you do not show any mercy to. Why?
> 
> Id guess same reasons we are in here.



If it is an intelligent post with a valid basis I have no problem with any of them. If they are simply there to antagonize and troll then the get what they give. 

As a side note, I was one of the very few that lobbied hard for an AAA forum on this site back in the day because I was fed up with the narrow "unChristian" manner in which folks over in the Self-Righteous forum treated ya'll. Anyone can bludgeon someone with a bible or scripture, but it does nothing towards proving their stance. Just as anyone can bludgeon someone with science, but just as NASA recently revealed, science is ever evolving and some of the age old hard cold truths are seeming maybe not so true after all.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> If it is an intelligent post with a valid basis I have no problem with any of them. If they are simply there to antagonize and troll then the get what they give.


I'll give an Amen to that!



Miguel Cervantes said:


> As a side note, I was one of the very few that lobbied hard for an AAA forum on this site back in the day because I was fed up with the narrow "unChristian" manner in which folks over in the Self-Righteous forum treated ya'll. Anyone can bludgeon someone with a bible or scripture, but it does nothing towards proving their stance. Just as anyone can bludgeon someone with science, but just as NASA recently revealed, science is ever evolving and some of the age old hard cold truths are seeming maybe not so true after all.



 to that all the way around.

I go with the the best available evidence as being the most accurate for right now. The door is always open for that to change but when it does the evidence supports it.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> I'll give an Amen to that!
> 
> 
> 
> to that all the way around.
> 
> I go with the the best available evidence as being the most accurate for right now. The door is always open for that to change but when it does the evidence supports it.


And I have no problem with you believing that way if it is what you are comfortable with. Each man (not gender specific) is a product of their environment and life experiences.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And I have no problem with you believing that way if it is what you are comfortable with. Each man (not gender specific) is a product of their environment and life experiences.


Agreed.
We only argue what we think we know is best.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Agreed.
> We only argue what we think we know is best.



There is room for common ground on all fronts, it's just a matter if people are willing to sit at that table and share a beer over friendly discussion and with acceptance of each others walk.


----------



## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> There is room for common ground on all fronts, it's just a matter if people are willing to sit at that table and share a beer over friendly discussion and with acceptance of each others walk.



Yuengling Brewery is about 15 miles from me if you are ever up this way.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Yuengling Brewery is about 15 miles from me if you are ever up this way.



Never been to PA, yet. I do like an ice cold Yuengling every now and then though.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> It's a concept that has it's origins in animism.  It posits that there's an "essence", "energy", incorporeal element of living things that's immeasurable, invisible, incomprehensible and eternal.  Sometimes it's believed that it retains our personality and consciousness after physical death and is sent to another dimension.  Others believe that it's a part of a greater whole that returns to its origin and reintegrates, shedding all parts of its prior existence.
> 
> 
> 
> Your turn.



When you made this statement:

"I personally feel that if we gain the ability to transport our physical matter from one place to another like in Star Trek that the spirit might not get sent along with."

Are you saying you do believe in the existence of a spirit realm, or just being facetious? Hard to tell sometimes.


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> And I have no problem with you believing that way if it is what you are comfortable with. Each man (not gender specific) is a product of their environment and life experiences.



That's the good part that I like to hear about.  I'm interested in how people got to where they are.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> When you made this statement:
> 
> "I personally feel that if we gain the ability to transport our physical matter from one place to another like in Star Trek that the spirit might not get sent along with."
> 
> Are you saying you do believe in the existence of a spirit realm, or just being facetious? Hard to tell sometimes.



I was making a joke in order to show how talking about transporters is the same as talking about spirits.

Tell me what you know about spirits and how you know it.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> I was making a joke in order to show how talking about transporters is the same as talking about spirits.
> 
> Tell me what you know about spirits and how you know it.



Why does it have to be a "physical" transportation?

To wit, what about the metaphysical? You know, those sensory perception most wild animals have that have been bred out of humans over the generations due to lack of use. That time you're out hunting and your glial cells activate your neurons to let you know something is out of place, something besides yourself is present, something isn't right, something that raises your red flag of self preservation. 

Not claiming this is a spiritual element, but our brains are much more capable than we give them credit for. I believe we are just too stinking cranial in our quest to be in control of every thought process that runs through our brain. Instinct, sans the sight, smell and sound" is a part of our make up. 

How in the world do we explain those perceptive moments where none of those basic three senses are responsible for alerting us to something being out of place? Anyone who has spent enough time in the great outdoors is familiar with this phenomenon.


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Why does it have to be a "physical" transportation?
> 
> To wit, what about the metaphysical? You know, those sensory perception most wild animals have that have been bred out of humans over the generations due to lack of use. That time you're out hunting and your glial cells activate your neurons to let you know something is out of place, something besides yourself is present, something isn't right, something that raises your red flag of self preservation.
> 
> Not claiming this is a spiritual element, but our brains are much more capable than we give them credit for. I believe we are just too stinking cranial in our quest to be in control of every thought process that runs through our brain. Instinct, sans the sight, smell and sound" is a part of our make up.
> 
> How in the world do we explain those perceptive moments where none of those basic three senses are responsible for alerting us to something being out of place? Anyone who has spent enough time in the great outdoors is familiar with this phenomenon.



Yes.  We register quite alot subconscious information.  Some of it can be demonstrated by doing experiments.        See "Derren Brown".  He prompts the  subconscious of his subjects to create some very cool tricks.  Sometimes we get a "Someone is watching me " feeling.  Part of what might cause that is that we don't realize how much of our peripheral vision we are using.  If there's unknown forces at work then we just have to call them unknown for now.  There's no reason to chalk them up to anything Mystical.


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Why does it have to be a "physical" transportation?
> 
> To wit, what about the metaphysical? You know, those sensory perception most wild animals have that have been bred out of humans over the generations due to lack of use. That time you're out hunting and your glial cells activate your neurons to let you know something is out of place, something besides yourself is present, something isn't right, something that raises your red flag of self preservation.
> 
> Not claiming this is a spiritual element, but our brains are much more capable than we give them credit for. I believe we are just too stinking cranial in our quest to be in control of every thought process that runs through our brain. Instinct, sans the sight, smell and sound" is a part of our make up.
> 
> How in the world do we explain those perceptive moments where none of those basic three senses are responsible for alerting us to something being out of place? Anyone who has spent enough time in the great outdoors is familiar with this phenomenon.



The transporter question is interesting because it kind of begs the question of "What is the relationship of our 'meat' to our consciousness"?


----------



## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> Belief is a product of the mind.  Equally as unreliable.



Bullet I have asked this before. Do you believe in love? do you believe in hate ? How do they exist when you only feel them? You do not believe feeling is true when I know being Human you experience these feelings. Is our spirit lying to us?


----------



## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I have asked this before. Do you believe in love? do you believe in hate ? How do they exist when you only feel them? You do not believe feeling is true when I know being Human you experience these feelings. Is our spirit lying to us?


They are emotions. They are brought on by electrical impulses and chemical reactions that happen within our bodies as reactions to emotional feelings. 
People all around the world experience the same" spiritual " feelings that you do and yet you tell them theirs are false.  You can't have it both ways Rich. What you feel is not unique or experienced by just one religion.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

ambush80 said:


> The transporter question is interesting because it kind of begs the question of "What is the relationship of our 'meat' to our consciousness"?



Well, why not meat, flesh, bone and marrow. It seems there is a clear delineation between them in the Bible in order to attempt to make humans understand what they are dealing with in the word of God. 

Here's what Hebrew's says:

12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

So many use the terms "Soul or Spirit" in a synonymous manner. Clearly they are not, just as a joint made from bones is not the same as the marrow within the bones. Uses the verse to create a separation between matters of the heart, which in this case I suppose would be compassion etc. and matters of the brain, thoughts etc.  Wpuld this be admitting a connection between the physical and metaphysical all while stating they are  clearly two separate entities operating in a symbiotic nature?

All done with the analogy of a sharp double edged sword. What do you think Ambush? Using a weapon of extraordinary ability to inflict pain and death on the battlefield to delineate the differences between those things that so many assume are the same and a little more. This isn't the only time in the Bible this sword is mentioned either.

To expand on this, and let's say we assume that the "soul" is a metaphysical being that is non-dimensional (that's a new level of thinking huh?) but I say "non-dimensional" for the sake of my next statement where space, and size constrictions do not apply to the "soul" if we apply this stuff to the Buddhist way of believing. Which is in re-incarnation where every creature has the potential to be a relative from the past. So in order for you, your essence, your Soul to occupy a human form in one life and that of a mosquito in another life the soul would truly have to be a non-dimensional entity capable of occupying any living form of any size. 

If this is true, what then, role does the "spirit" of a human play separate from the "soul"?


----------



## ambush80

bullethead said:


> They are emotions. They are brought on by electrical impulses and chemical reactions that happen within our bodies as reactions to emotional feelings.
> People all around the world experience the same" spiritual " feelings that you do and yet you tell them theirs are false.  You can't have it both ways Rich. What you feel is not unique or experienced by just one religion.



Richie,
Furthermore, with the right chemicals and the right electrical stimulus applied to you, you could be made to feel in love.  Is that real love?  What's the difference?  Inversely, people have had injuries that cause them to forget ever having loved a spouse or child.  Was that real love?  Where did it go?


----------



## ambush80

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Well, why not meat, flesh, bone and marrow. It seems there is a clear delineation between them in the Bible in order to attempt to make humans understand what they are dealing with in the word of God.
> 
> Here's what Hebrew's says:
> 
> 12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13 And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.
> 
> So many use the terms "Soul or Spirit" in a synonymous manner. Clearly they are not, just as a joint made from bones is not the same as the marrow within the bones. Uses the verse to create a separation between matters of the heart, which in this case I suppose would be compassion etc. and matters of the brain, thoughts etc.  Wpuld this be admitting a connection between the physical and metaphysical all while stating they are  clearly two separate entities operating in a symbiotic nature?
> 
> All done with the analogy of a sharp double edged sword. What do you think Ambush? Using a weapon of extraordinary ability to inflict pain and death on the battlefield to delineate the differences between those things that so many assume are the same and a little more. This isn't the only time in the Bible this sword is mentioned either.
> 
> To expand on this, and let's say we assume that the "soul" is a metaphysical being that is non-dimensional (that's a new level of thinking huh?) but I say "non-dimensional" for the sake of my next statement where space, and size constrictions do not apply to the "soul" if we apply this stuff to the Buddhist way of believing. Which is in re-incarnation where every creature has the potential to be a relative from the past. So in order for you, your essence, your Soul to occupy a human form in one life and that of a mosquito in another life the soul would truly have to be a non-dimensional entity capable of occupying any living form of any size.
> 
> If this is true, what then, role does the "spirit" of a human play separate from the "soul"?



Interesting questions and ideas.

Firstly, when I mentioned 'meat' I was thinking of the entirety of the physical body, not just muscle tissue.

There's a lot to unpack in Bible verses so this may take a while but here goes.

_"12 For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."_

We have to find out what the writers meant by 'soul' and 'spirit'.  I'm not a Biblical scholar and I don't read Hebrew so in trying to get at this I will defer to whatever definitions you give me.  What is your distinction between the 'soul' and 'spirit'?

Then there's the issue of metaphor.  The use of the word sword.  It's not a knife. It's not a dagger.  It's not a scalpel (They didn't know what a scalpel is).  It's a sword.  A brutish instrument meant for hacking and plunging.  In this case it reads to me like hacking as in dismembering, not disarticulating.  But then he says piercing, a semi controlled use of the instrument.  That's not typically how one would separate body parts but it says 'piercing' (if that's indeed the correct translation from the Hebrew). So it seems that he's saying that the way that soul and spirit are related is like how joints and marrow are related.  To get to the joints and marrow requires some forceful use of the instrument, especially if what you've got is a sword.  

The whole point is to 'discern' the thoughts and intentions of the heart.


_"discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart."_

Of course the writer isn't talking about the physical heart because err'body knows that's not where thoughts or feelings come from.  Or was he?  Anyhoo,  He seems to be saying that the sword (the Scripure) pierces in order to _"perceive or recognize"_( from Webster) the thoughts and intentions of the heart.  That's enough on that.


I'll assume what you say about the soul being metaphysical and non-dimensional so we can keep discussing this.  I reserve that the soul isn't a proven thing. 

It's strange to me that you bring up the Hindu concept of the soul in order to describe one of its characteristics; that it can fit in various sized vessels.  Equally curious is that you use the Hindu concept that a soul might inhabit a mosquito.

So what about the spirit?  How do you distinguish it from the soul?


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> Richie,
> Furthermore, with the right chemicals and the right electrical stimulus applied to you, you could be made to feel in love.  Is that real love?  What's the difference?  Inversely, people have had injuries that cause them to forget ever having loved a spouse or child.  Was that real love?  Where did it go?



Isaiah 49:15

15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.

Man's love may come and go, but God's love is immutable.


----------



## ambush80

welderguy said:


> Isaiah 49:15
> 
> 15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee.
> 
> Man's love may come and go, but God's love is immutable.



She can if she gets knocked in the head just right.

Try to tell me I'm wrong.

Many women with mental illness have killed their baby in the womb.


----------



## welderguy

ambush80 said:


> She can if she gets knocked in the head just right.
> 
> Try to tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> Many women with mental illness have killed their baby in the womb.



That's exactly what the verse is saying.


----------



## 660griz

ambush80 said:


> She can if she gets knocked in the head just right.
> 
> Try to tell me I'm wrong.
> 
> Many women with mental illness have killed their baby in the womb.



God kills lots of babies in the womb and outside the womb.


----------



## ambush80

660griz said:


> God kills lots of babies in the womb and outside the womb.



If He's real, He's entitled.


----------



## 660griz

ambush80 said:


> If He's real, He's entitled.



And he created us in his own image. Hmmmm


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## ambush80

660griz said:


> And he created us in his own image. Hmmmm



But His ways are not our ways.  

I know that one of your biggest beefs with Christianity is how cruel their God seems.  I have that problem, too,  but the believers see Him as sovereign and mysterious.  We who are clay are not to judge the Potter.


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## bullethead

ambush80 said:


> But His ways are not our ways.
> 
> I know that one of your biggest beefs with Christianity is how cruel their God seems.  I have that problem, too,  but the believers see Him as sovereign and mysterious.  We who are clay are not to judge the Potter.


Yep yep yep.
"There is no uncaused cause"
Except our god
"Our god loves us"
Especially when he kills us
"Everyone is held accountable for their actions"
Except our god, he is sovereign 

He is the opposite of his own rules and flourishes through the excuses of his believers.


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> They are emotions. They are brought on by electrical impulses and chemical reactions that happen within our bodies as reactions to emotional feelings.
> People all around the world experience the same" spiritual " feelings that you do and yet you tell them theirs are false.  You can't have it both ways Rich. What you feel is not unique or experienced by just one religion.



Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.


I don't own a dog and the wife has been out in the kennel since last 4th of July  because she peed on the floor when the fireworks scared her.
She seems happy when she gets her water and I let her run around the yard for a bit.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.



And what is the affection from the animals called?
Where does that come from?


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## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.


That's horrible!
I would never treat a dog that way.........


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> And what is the affection from the animals called?
> Where does that come from?



Instinct.


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## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Bullet I have a scientific experiment I want you to try that proves humans have a spirit and love and anger are real and more that just chemical impulses. Take your dog and lock him in the trunk of your car for half an hour. When you let him out he will be happy to see you. Then take your wife and lock her in the trunk for half an hour and see her reaction when you let her out. Please get this on video and post it as we would all like to see the results of this experiment.


Richie if this subject interests you, you can spend days reading the scientific journals about what we know about how and where emotions are produced in ourselves and the research that is being done and that has been done.


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## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> Richie if this subject interests you, you can spend days reading the scientific journals about what we know about how and where emotions are produced in ourselves and the research that is being done and that has been done.



Walt it is interesting. But I am looking at it from a spiritual aspect and you are looking at it from a scientific aspect. I'm not really into man's unit of measurement. I am guided by the spirit which doesn't always seem logical to some. And there is no scale for it but how scientist try to explain it. I understand your point of view and I hope you understand mine. I am interested in what others think and try to figure out why they think that.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Walt it is interesting. But I am looking at it from a spiritual aspect and you are looking at it from a scientific aspect. I'm not really into man's unit of measurement. I am guided by the spirit which doesn't always seem logical to some. And there is no scale for it but how scientist try to explain it. I understand your point of view and I hope you understand mine. I am interested in what others think and try to figure out why they think that.



So basically it comes down to a "who is tougher, superman or mighty mouse" conversation.
When you deal with and in variables that exist nowhere but an individuals mind and vary from individual to individual how can you establish a baseline as to where to start a discussion?
What is your definition of a spiritual aspect?
And if you are not interested in man's unit of measurement, why talk to man about it?


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> So basically it comes down to a "who is tougher, superman or mighty mouse" conversation.
> When you deal with and in variables that exist nowhere but an individuals mind and vary from individual to individual how can you establish a baseline as to where to start a discussion?
> What is your definition of a spiritual aspect?
> And if you are not interested in man's unit of measurement, why talk to man about it?



Good point I think because humans are curious by nature. So I am trying to figure out why are views are so different and why you have come to the conclusions you have. Just as you are curious why I have come to the conclusions I have.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Good point I think because humans are curious by nature. So I am trying to figure out why are views are so different and why you have come to the conclusions you have. Just as you are curious why I have come to the conclusions I have.


It is hard to get a bunch of like minded christians to agree on details within the bible let alone their conclusions to match on a spirit or spiritual matters.
I and i think "we" have those same feelings as you but it is just I/we do not get the notion that an outside source contributes to them. Science hasn't fully figured out the capacity, limitations or capabilities of our own brains, why introduce an outside source to muddy the waters even more?


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## WaltL1

red neck richie said:


> Walt it is interesting. But I am looking at it from a spiritual aspect and you are looking at it from a scientific aspect. I'm not really into man's unit of measurement. I am guided by the spirit which doesn't always seem logical to some. And there is no scale for it but how scientist try to explain it. I understand your point of view and I hope you understand mine. I am interested in what others think and try to figure out why they think that.


It interests me too. 
But I will readily admit none of the scientific journals I have read entailed locking a dog or a wife in a trunk.
I guess science just hasn't got to that point yet. Maybe it will catch up some day.


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> It is hard to get a bunch of like minded christians to agree on details within the bible let alone their conclusions to match on a spirit or spiritual matters.
> I and i think "we" have those same feelings as you but it is just I/we do not get the notion that an outside source contributes to them. Science hasn't fully figured out the capacity, limitations or capabilities of our own brains, why introduce an outside source to muddy the waters even more?



True but do you think that is because we are all our own individual spirit? Even Identical twins can be totally different. You have three children you would think with the same dna they would be alike. But if your kids are anything like mine they are totally different. They don't think or act the same way. Animals act the same. It seems to be based off instinct but not humans.


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Good point I think because humans are curious by nature. So I am trying to figure out why are views are so different and why you have come to the conclusions you have. Just as you are curious why I have come to the conclusions I have.



Me, too.

I have a suggestion for you.  If you want to understand why people think the way they do, you should first be able to describe what they believe in terms that they'll agree with.  Can you explain back to me what I believe?  Next, you have to understand the arguments they have against your belief.  That's part of the reason I asked you for your best three reasons against your belief.  Or, which of my arguments have been the best against your belief?  Which ones made the most "human mind" sense?


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## red neck richie

WaltL1 said:


> It interests me too.
> But I will readily admit none of the scientific journals I have read entailed locking a dog or a wife in a trunk.
> I guess science just hasn't got to that point yet. Maybe it will catch up some day.



Lol. I guess I'm a pioneer. Maybe I should write a journal.


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> True but do you think that is because we are all our own individual spirit? Even Identical twins can be totally different. You have three children you would think with the same dna they would be alike. But if your kids are anything like mine they are totally different. They don't think or act the same way. Animals act the same. It seems to be based off instinct but not humans.



They can have strong personalities.  The closer the animal is to us genetically, the more they're like us.  Chimps have very different personalities.  Have you ever seen a documentary about chimps or read an article about chimps?


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## ambush80

red neck richie said:


> Lol. I guess I'm a pioneer. Maybe I should write a journal.



I've got a good experiment.  Tie your son to a rock and tell him God told you to slaughter him as a sacrifice.  See how strong his faith is.  See if he'll go along willingly.  If he doesn't, does that mean that God didn't give him enough faith?


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## red neck richie

ambush80 said:


> I've got a good experiment.  Tie your son to a rock and tell him God told you to slaughter him as a sacrifice.  See how strong his faith is.  See if he'll go along willingly.  If he doesn't, does that mean that God didn't give him enough faith?



One problem with your experiment your telling me to do it not God. And as I told you before I don't push my faith or my believes on anyone. Including my children they are my personal beliefs. I tell them what I believe and why but they are free to make up their own mind. How do you know Abraham told his son where they were going and what he was gonna do? Nice try but an ambush shouldn't be that easy to spot.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> True but do you think that is because we are all our own individual spirit? Even Identical twins can be totally different. You have three children you would think with the same dna they would be alike. But if your kids are anything like mine they are totally different. They don't think or act the same way. Animals act the same. It seems to be based off instinct but not humans.


I agree about individuals being different. I have three sons and they are all different.
I do not agree it has anyrhing to do with individual spirits. 
I do not agree that animals act the same way. They each have as a unique personality as a human.


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## WaltL1

bullethead said:


> I agree about individuals being different. I have three sons and they are all different.
> I do not agree it has anyrhing to do with individual spirits.
> I do not agree that animals act the same way. They each have as a unique personality as a human.


Yup.
At one time I owned 2 dogs. If you made an aggressive move toward me the little mixed breed dog pound rescue would be ready to rip your throat out. The Rottweiler would look at you, pass gas and go to sleep.


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## red neck richie

bullethead said:


> I agree about individuals being different. I have three sons and they are all different.
> I do not agree it has anyrhing to do with individual spirits.
> I do not agree that animals act the same way. They each have as a unique personality as a human.



Let me give you an example. If a dog is in heat every unneutered dog within smelling distance will be trying to mate with her. If a human female is having her cycle boys watch out. But seriously I would doubt you would even know. And if you did you have self control as where animals do not.


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## Israel

WaltL1 said:


> Yup.
> At one time I owned 2 dogs. If you made an aggressive move toward me the little mixed breed dog pound rescue would be ready to rip your throat out. The Rottweiler would look at you, pass gas and go to sleep.



Some may be "fear" biters.


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## bullethead

red neck richie said:


> Let me give you an example. If a dog is in heat every unneutered dog within smelling distance will be trying to mate with her. If a human female is having her cycle boys watch out. But seriously I would doubt you would even know. And if you did you have self control as where animals do not.



Your simple analogy is not an example of how complex the differences really are.
You are totally not factoring in evolution and survival of the fittest.
20,000 years ago both ladies would have had the interest of however many men were around them.

Teenage boys in high school and adult males out at bars and clubs on weekend nights are two quick examples of hounds on scent trails.


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## bullethead

Richie, how old is the Earth?
How long have humans inhabited the Earth?

You are well thought but your thoughts stop right at the spot that seems to back up your position and you do not take the thoughts or research further to find out the truth. I used to be the same way.
If you think that male humans have always properly courted females then there is nothing I can say that will change your mind. The history of humans will tell you a much different story. We are animals and still act like animals. If you want to start a new thread to discuss it I ask you to please do so.


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## Israel

Jesus is quite unequivocal in regards to the question of the OP. In fact he is emphatic as to not only what is true, but that he, himself, is _the_ truth.


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## bullethead

Israel said:


> Jesus is quite unequivocal in regards to the question of the OP. In fact he is emphatic as to not only what is true, but that he, himself, is _the_ truth.



So is Hong Kong Phooey. It says so right here.


Hong Kong Phooey, number one super guy. 
Hong Kong Phooey, quicker than the human eye. 

He's got style, a groovy style, 
and a car that just won't stop. 
When the going gets rough, he's super tough, 
with a Hong Kong Phooey chop (Hi-Ya!) 

Hong Kong Phooey, number one super guy. 
Hong Kong Phooey, quicker than the human eye. 

Hong Kong Phooey, fan-riffic (gong!)


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## Israel

One might follow Hong Kong Phooey as far as they are allowed.


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## bullethead

Super Tough, Groovy Style, Quicker than the Human Eye....
#1 Super Guy


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## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> So is Hong Kong Phooey. It says so right here.
> 
> 
> Hong Kong Phooey, number one super guy.
> Hong Kong Phooey, quicker than the human eye.
> 
> He's got style, a groovy style,
> and a car that just won't stop.
> When the going gets rough, he's super tough,
> with a Hong Kong Phooey chop (Hi-Ya!)
> 
> Hong Kong Phooey, number one super guy.
> Hong Kong Phooey, quicker than the human eye.
> 
> Hong Kong Phooey, fan-riffic (gong!)



I did find the word tough, but failed to find "truth" anywhere in that declaration.


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## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I did find the word tough, but failed to find "truth" anywhere in that declaration.



Then my example was a perfect parody of what I find daily by a handful of posters in here.


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## Miguel Cervantes

bullethead said:


> Then my example was a perfect parody of what I find daily by a handful of posters in here.



But to the point, I can find the word "truth" in the scriptures in several places. Perhaps Wonder Dog would have been a better example.


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## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> But to the point, I can find the word "truth" in the scriptures in several places. Perhaps Wonder Dog would have been a better example.



Oh so if it says "truth" in the writing and refers back to itself as a reference then...
I see
I see


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## bullethead

Oh fer geeze, now I don't know what to believe?

I seek refuge in ALLAH from satan the rejected.
In the Name of ALLAH, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

The fact is that ALLAH alone is the only TRUTH in the universe and everything else beside Him is falsehood.

23:90- We have given them the truth, while they are liars.

22:62- It is a fact that ALLAH is the Truth, while the setting up of any idols beside Him constitutes a falsehood, and that ALLAH is the Most High, the Supreme.

10:32- Such is ALLAH, your rightful Lord. What is there after the truth, except falsehood? How could you disregard all this?

10:33- This is what your Lord's decision does to those who choose to be wicked: They cannot believe.

10:82- ALLAH establishes the truth with His words (the Quran), despite the criminals.

17:81- Proclaim, "the truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished; falsehood will inevitably vanish."

21:18 - 21:20- Instead, it is our plan to support the truth against falsehood, in order to defeat it. Woe to you for the utterances you utter. To Him belongs everyone in the Heavens and the Earth, and those at Him are never too arrogant to worship Him, nor do they ever waver. They glorify night and day without ever tiring.

His promises and prophecies, similarly, are the TRUTH. This scripture came in Arabic and ALLAH, Most Wise, included a mathematical component that has phenomenal, miraculous dimensions that are incomprehensible and unfathomable to the human mind. This aspect alone, besides the literal composition, should open up our eyes to the Glory, Greatness, Wisdom, and Omnipotence of the Creator.

It goes on and on..
Literally PROVES its holiness through math at the end
Check it out

http://www.godprovenas1.com/purpose/Allah_the_only_truth.html


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## Miguel Cervantes

Between the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael two directions were taken. I suppose it would come down to; Do you want to follow the example of the son that was blessed by both Abraham and the Lord? or do you want to follow the examples of the one that rebuked both Abraham and the Lord?

Both claimed to follow God, but one was more scriptural than the other.


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## bullethead

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Between the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Ishmael two directions were taken. I suppose it would come down to; Do you want to follow the example of the son that was blessed by both Abraham and the Lord? or do you want to follow the examples of the one that rebuked both Abraham and the Lord?
> 
> Both claimed to follow God, but one was more scriptural than the other.


No,No...it is about TRUTH! Right?? And where that truth comes from..

I choose neither because I am not a couple thousand year old middle easterner that believes in religious legend and folklore which was borrowed from earlier religious legend and folklore and massaged to fit.
And the 3647 and counting other reasons we have discussed in here just in the years I have been active


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## Josey

bullethead said:


> oh so if it says "truth" in the writing and refers back to itself as a reference then...
> I see
> i see


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## Israel

I was interested to see whether a quote I read was truly attributable to the source claimed. I was more than a little surprised...



> He disagreed with the traditional Jewish concept of free will.
> 
> “I am a determinist. As such, I do not believe in free will. The Jews believe in free will. They believe that man shapes his own life. I reject that doctrine philosophically. In that respect I am not a Jew… Practically, I am nevertheless, compelled to act as if freedom of the will existed. If I wish to live in a civilized community, I must act as if man is a responsible being.”
> 
> He never expressed any belief in a personal God, but he believed in the historical Jesus — not the popularized prophet such as appeared in a best-selling biography by Emil Ludwig.
> 
> “Ludwig’s Jesus,” Einstein replied, “is shallow. Jesus is too colossal for the pen of phrasemongers, however artful. No man can dispose of Christianity with a bon mot.”
> 
> “You accept the historical existence of Jesus?”
> 
> “Unquestionably. No one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life. How different, for instance, is the impression which we receive from an account of legendary heroes of antiquity like Theseus. Theseus and other heroes of his type lack the authentic vitality of Jesus.”
> 
> Einstein was no relativist on the subject of nationalism, which he saw grow violent and intolerant from his Berlin home.
> 
> “Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.”





And a few more from an interview, Saturday Evening Post, Oct 26, 1929.

http://www.saturdayeveningpost.com/wp-content/uploads/satevepost/what_life_means_to_einstein.pdf


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