# Haiti



## earl (Jan 22, 2010)

How do ya'll feel about  it now that there is talk of a mass exodus to the USA. With unemployment at record rates ,will it be the'' Christian ''thing to do to allow more people in with no jobs in sight ?


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## Huntinfool (Jan 22, 2010)

Funny you ask.


Honestly, I was just thinking that we need to look at sending aid as a protectionary measure as well.  I don't hear people talking about that.

Send them aid and get that country up and running...SO THEY DON'T COME OVER HERE!

Can you imagine another million or two Haitians coming over here?  Imagine what the ultimate $$ cost would be for that to the taxpayers.

That said, the "Christian" thing to do is to help them.  It is not good for anybody (IMO) to bring them over here.  We need to help them get back on their feet so that they can rebuild.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 22, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Funny you ask.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I was just thinking that we need to look at sending aid as a protectionary measure as well.  I don't hear people talking about that.
> ...



Agree.

I wonder how much of the damage and drama in Haiti is media hype.  We will never know how many people actually died in that quake.

25,000
50,000
100,000
200,000

No one will ever know.


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## Israel (Jan 22, 2010)

Funny...you know what I am learning?
All the things I may have opinions on...I really don't have to have opinions on.
Every possibility that may come down the pike doesn't have to have a yea or nay from me.


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## JustUs4All (Jan 22, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Funny you ask.
> 
> 
> Honestly, I was just thinking that we need to look at sending aid as a protectionary measure as well.  I don't hear people talking about that.
> ...



I agree with all of that except the "so they can rebuild" part.  I believe most of what is there was originally either built or funded by outsiders.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2010)

Israel said:


> Funny...you know what I am learning?
> All the things I may have opinions on...I really don't have to have opinions on.
> Every possibility that may come down the pike doesn't have to have a yea or nay from me.




That's interesting.  I always thought that one of the benefits of adopting one of the standardized codes for morality would be definitive answers to the hard questions in life: Stem cells, birth control, charity to refugees, shooting fawns...etc.


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## gtparts (Jan 22, 2010)

Smart money would be on "teaching a man to fish" for a long-term solution. The U.S. has rarely been concerned beyond "throwing a fish" to those in need. 

It has been a sad truth for much of the last century that the most enduring effort has been pretty much limited to that of the Christian churches and the American Red Cross. Haiti has limited resources, so without people committing to go for an extended time to integrate into the culture to teach and a significant investment in developing tourism that supports the base economy of the nation, they have a long way to go. 

So far most of the private investments made in Haiti have been with an eye to getting cheap labor without putting back into the people and economy. Raw materials are imported, processed at near slave wages, reshipped, and sold around the world, with very little going back into the country that provided the labor. What does, is siphoned off by the corrupt officials.


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## FX Jenkins (Jan 22, 2010)

Israel said:


> Funny...you know what I am learning?
> All the things I may have opinions on...I really don't have to have opinions on.
> Every possibility that may come down the pike doesn't have to have a yea or nay from me.



thats deep bro


I do happen to have an opinion on this one..comprised of the following two inspirations...

James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame.
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!" 

This is no time to shut the door....


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## Lowjack (Jan 22, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Agree.
> 
> I wonder how much of the damage and drama in Haiti is media hype.  We will never know how many people actually died in that quake.
> 
> ...



I assure you sir, it is no hype, as a matter of fact whatever you saw on CNN , multiply that by 100 and then you will have a pictured.
I had the misfortune to have to smell dead bodies in the thousands laying on  sidewalks and gutters on the streets, to see mass graves with bodies swollen and eaten by maggots buried in the municipal dump, you have no Idea of the magnitude of Haiti's problems.

And I'm going back next week.
God have Mercy on these people who are also God's Creation.
I'm Very dissapointed at the level of Christianity found in here.


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## Dominic (Jan 22, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Smart money would be on "teaching a man to fish" for a long-term solution. The U.S. has rarely been concerned beyond "throwing a fish" to those in need.


 

I remember that part of the Bible, when Jesus said to five thousand "OK everyone gather around, now I know you're all hungry, so I'm going to help. This is a net..."


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## earl (Jan 22, 2010)

Nimby ?


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## gtparts (Jan 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> I remember that part of the Bible, when Jesus said to five thousand "OK everyone gather around, now I know you're all hungry, so I'm going to help. This is a net..."



Cute! The situation was a little different and you know it. 

I in no way implied that nothing was being done. Far from it. But most emergency workers will be "out of there" when the churches of the world will still be ministering to the needs of the people of Haiti, as they have been for decades. Missionaries have been on the ground in Haiti for the better part of 150 yrs. or more.

The hundreds of millions expended in the last several days and weeks could have prevented some of the suffering had it arrived in a more timely fashion, say over the last 20 yrs., to build better (earthquake resistant) housing, schools and hospitals, and to train more Haitian medical personnel.

Many will be satisfied to address the immediate problems without ever getting to know the people, and that's OK. But rebuilding the infrastructure will take much longer and will only be accomplished by establishing  personal relationships with the people of Haiti. Sadly, few are willing to make that commitment. 

Jesus came with one purpose. As His followers, we are called to many different purposes. Let's just be faithful and obedient to our calling.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 22, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> I assure you sir, it is no hype, as a matter of fact whatever you saw on CNN , multiply that by 100 and then you will have a pictured.
> I had the misfortune to have to smell dead bodies in the thousands laying on  sidewalks and gutters on the streets, to see mass graves with bodies swollen and eaten by maggots buried in the municipal dump, you have no Idea of the magnitude of Haiti's problems.
> 
> And I'm going back next week.
> ...



You're right.  I have no idea of the magnitude of Haiti's problems.  I don't doubt the mass graves.  I don't doubt the death.  That being said, it is impossible to tally the number of bodies in a mass grave.  How big of a pile is 1,000 bodies? Nobody knows.

By questioning the number of dead has nothing to do with a "level of Christianity."  I just find it....hmm....interesting at the intensity of the media attention of this event.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 22, 2010)

Oh...btw...I don't want to hijack the thread of LJ saying where people can donate.

Earl..you brought up the question of wondering how much went to actual missions.

Here is an organization where 100% of everything goes to the people of Haiti.  www.doubleharvest.org


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## earl (Jan 22, 2010)

I looked through that link and would ask the same questions. I did not see their financial page listed . 
As gt said , missionaries have been there for around 150 years. I don't see the results. Nor do I see the results of the millions of dollars that have been spent by the world's governments. At some point, and now may not be the time, the Hatian people need to take responsibility for their country. If the US were to take as much trouble in Hati that they have in insuring that Iraq has a democratic government the Docs could not have ruined the country. Of course Haiti has probably as many oil wells as Iraq has missionaries. Makes me wonder.


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## pileit (Jan 22, 2010)

Dominic said:


> I remember that part of the Bible, when Jesus said to five thousand "OK everyone gather around, now I know you're all hungry, so I'm going to help. This is a net..."



I remember another time when they had toiled all night, caught nothing and Jesus told them where to let their net down and the catch was so great it brake the nets.


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## Dominic (Jan 23, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Cute! The situation was a little different and you know it.


 
Was it? 

There is a time to call for folks standing up and doing for themselves, but that time is not when there are thousands lying dead in the streets.



pileit said:


> I remember another time when they had toiled all night, caught nothing and Jesus told them where to let their net down and the catch was so great it broke the nets.


 
You mean he did not tell them about currents, tides, the feeding patterns of tilapia, in other words "teach them to fish”; instead He was brazen enough to give them a miracle. How dare He just give them something, and not expect them to work for it.


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## gtparts (Jan 23, 2010)

> Originally Posted by gtparts  View Post
> Cute! The situation was a little different and you know it.





Dominic said:


> Was it?
> 
> There is a time to call for folks standing up and doing for themselves, but that time is not when there are thousands lying dead in the streets.
> 
> ...



Come on, Nic. You either missed the point or avoided the point.
 Again, my point was that the the high profile do-gooders, if they are true to form, will be gone from Haiti as soon as the cameras are gone. My heart breaks for the people of Haiti. I have been there and have friends there. I have friends here who have lost family and and life-long friends in the earthquakes (at least four families from Haiti in our church). I grieve with LJ and many others for the loss of life and devastation and I would not minimize the current efforts, but I am equally certain that much of the long  term needs will not be met by emergency workers, but by missionaries and their support organizations. 
The next five to ten years will be critical to changing the landscape and lives of Haitians, especially the slum conditions of Port-au-Prince from the Bay of Gonave to the rising hills and peaks above the city. Many of the small towns and villages around P-a-P are suffering also.

To my mind, there is a cruelty to merely taking care of the short term needs and then bailing on the long term needs. Does it really take a disaster to bring temporary assistance to the Western Hemisphere's poorest country or should the world have been doing more all along...and going forward into the future?

You seem to think that my attitude is to let Haitians pick themselves up by "their own boot straps".....which it is not. 
You have misread something somewhere in this thread.

Exactly what is it about my post that you disagree with and why?


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## Dominic (Jan 25, 2010)

gtparts said:


> To my mind, there is a cruelty to merely taking care of the short term needs and then bailing on the long term needs.



Kind of like not leaving in place a, oh lets say a Magisterium, to guide and lead your followers? But that’s another topic.



gtparts said:


> Exactly what is it about my post that you disagree with and why?




I stated my problem, and I say again there is a time to call for folks standing up and doing for themselves, but that time is not when there are thousands lying dead in the streets.  A helping hand out is what is needed now, eventually a helping hand up it what will be needed.


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## earl (Jan 25, 2010)

Religious news .com reported that the US alone had sent 380 million dollars. For a population of 9 million. The reported average income in Haiti is reported at about $480 . I am not an economist by any means ,but that sounds like an enormous helping hand. And that doesn't include contributions from other nations.Or next month's contribution. The world as a whole and the US in particular should demand an accounting for the way the money is spent. _f we are only enriching the government and religious orginisations, I say ''Enough !! '' Haiti as a nation has shown itself incapable of utilizing the help it gets to beacome autonomous. World governments haven't helped nor have the various missionaries._


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## gtparts (Jan 25, 2010)

earl said:


> Religious news .com reported that the US alone had sent 380 million dollars. For a population of 9 million. The reported average income in Haiti is reported at about $480 . I am not an economist by any means ,but that sounds like an enormous helping hand. And that doesn't include contributions from other nations.Or next month's contribution. The world as a whole and the US in particular should demand an accounting for the way the money is spent. _f we are only enriching the government and religious orginisations, I say ''Enough !! '' Haiti as a nation has shown itself incapable of utilizing the help it gets to beacome autonomous. World governments haven't helped nor have the various missionaries._


_

I would highly recommend not giving anymore, if I were you mad. 

God loves a cheerful giver._


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## earl (Jan 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I would highly recommend not giving anymore, if I were you mad.
> 
> God loves a cheerful giver.



Does being a wise shephard come into play ?


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## gtparts (Jan 26, 2010)

earl said:


> Does being a wise shephard come into play ?



Of course, which, knowing how generously you have already contributed, you should not feel bad about discontinuing to give at this time. You may be moved to give more, later.

Relax. If you have given cheerfully out of your abundance, take joy in knowing you have helped the less fortunate.

Oh, and I believe you meant "wise steward", not "shepherd".


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## earl (Jan 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Of course, which, knowing how generously you have already contributed, you should not feel bad about discontinuing to give at this time. You may be moved to give more, later.
> 
> Relax. If you have given cheerfully out of your abundance, take joy in knowing you have helped the less fortunate.
> 
> Oh, and I believe you meant "wise steward", not "shepherd".






You are correct. Thank you. I must have read more sarcasm in your post than intended .


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## Tim L (Jan 26, 2010)

Sad truth is there's no hopeful answers for the people of Hati; they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't......The country has been totally striped of it's natural resources; in the early 1800's it was a natural paradise; now it's a cesspool....most of the natural vegetation is gone; the soil severely eroded; most of the trees cut for fuel...no history of responsible government; no honest native buracracy that can distribute aid in a responsible manner...no real hope for getting any better...most of the country is run by gangs and thugs; most that aren't aspire to be in a gang or a thug...yet these are people too and they have suffered horribly and will continue to into the long term future....and the same was basically true (to a lesser extent) before the quake...like I said, the poor bestards are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't...


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## gtparts (Jan 26, 2010)

Rouster said:


> Sad truth is there's no hopeful answers for the people of Hati; they are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't......The country has been totally striped of it's natural resources; in the early 1800's it was a natural paradise; now it's a cesspool....most of the natural vegetation is gone; the soil severely eroded; most of the trees cut for fuel...no history of responsible government; no honest native buracracy that can distribute aid in a responsible manner...no real hope for getting any better...most of the country is run by gangs and thugs; most that aren't aspire to be in a gang or a thug...yet these are people too and they have suffered horribly and will continue to into the long term future....and the same was basically true (to a lesser extent) before the quake...like I said, the poor bestards are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't...



Yep, that's a fairly accurate description of a tragic situation. I almost believe they would have been better off if they had remained under French control into the late 20th century.....and that is saying something.

 Bleak when I was there and it looks worse now. Absolutely heartbreaking!


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## Cottontail (Jan 26, 2010)

We need to start taking care of our own & worrying a little less about all these other Countries . I know people right here in the good old USA who need help getting there Medication every month and are turned down by Medicaid if you had no insurance and lets say you or one of your children had a illness that required medication every day for the rest of your life & it cost $1000.00 a month where would you turn to ???? Thats not including the Doctors visits we need to be focusing on these type problems right here at home !!!!


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## tell sackett (Jan 26, 2010)

Matt.25:37-40  Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38)When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39) Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You? 40)And the King will answer and say to them, Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.  

Somehow, I don't think that teaching is there just as filler. It's a direct command from the King himself. We who profess the name of Christ are called to do all we can to help all those in need, whether they are here at home or thousands of miles away.

I've been reading comments here and in the pf about throwing our hands up and walking away from Haiti as a hopeless cause. I agree that it is maddening to see so much aid and effort being wasted or stolen and I don't pretend to have the answer, but I do know this: I see no way that we, in good conscience, can turn our backs on people who are so desperate and hungry that even before the quake they were baking mud pies and eating them for lack of anything better.

I do agree with buckmaster32 and others who are making the point that there are many in need in this country, and we as individuals and churches need to do more to help them, but even the poorest in this country live like kings compared to many in this world.


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## Tim L (Jan 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Yep, that's a fairly accurate description of a tragic situation. I almost believe they would have been better off if they had remained under French control into the late 20th century.....and that is saying something.
> 
> Bleak when I was there and it looks worse now. Absolutely heartbreaking!



Your right; if you look at the carribean islands that are still french dependencies, their poor, but well fed...the islands have maintained their native fauna and vegetation....


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## Old Winchesters (Jan 26, 2010)

I pay an overwhelming amount of taxes and if my government chooses to give my money to other countries then so be it. I depend on them to be good stewards of that money. I think of myself as giving that way...through the government money, men, food and equipment that will be sent over there....Thats my money going over there and I don't mind it since it is needed but I just can't see myself sending more. Those countries will never pull there self up. It was a miserable place before and will be afterwards , no matter what we do. JMO


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## 3weimies (Jan 26, 2010)

Surely we should help them and other needy souls of the world. My question is, Their country was in pitiful shape for many many years before this quake. Where were the hollywood and music types and media before now?


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 26, 2010)

perfect example of satan fooling the govt who then fool
the churches who then use romans 13 to fool the people. 

do whatever the govt says. 
be a good american. 
we can drop bombs.
the banks needed your $2.5 trillion more than you.
give everything that we tell you to give. 
dont ask questions. 
it was the 19 saudis with boxcutters.
we know whats best for you.
keep silent. 
we must print more fiat money.
killing babies is good.
be a patriot. 
take your poisonous vaccine and shut up.
we need to reform the best healthcare in the world.
pay your unconstitutional taxes.
we must bailout AIG.
saddam has weapons of mass destruction.
accept our unbiblical laws.

it never ends. at least not until Jesus puts an end to this mess. there are gonna be a lot of people surprised at who the real enemies are...

Jesus said that our (His sheep) enemies will be those of our own household....   hmmm. maybe "household" here could mean house but also, country...


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## tell sackett (Jan 27, 2010)

[color=[QUOTE="beenhuntn, post: 4555687"]perfect example of satan fooling the govt who then fool
the churches who then use romans 13 to fool the people. 
what do you think Paul is teaching in ch.13?
do whatever the govt says. if it isn't contrary to scripture
be a good american.see above 
we can drop bombs.unfortunately, sometimes that's necessary for the protection of the country. Also unfortunately, sometimes we do it when we shouldn't
the banks needed your $2.5 trillion more than you.the bailout was criminally stupid imo, but where did you get 2.5 trillion?
give everything that we tell you to give. no, who has said that here?
dont ask questions. see above
it was the 19 saudis with boxcutters.yes, it was, with a lot of help from terrorist organizations. Please tell me you're not one of the tin foil hat wearing "Bush did it" crowd.
we know whats best for you.no
keep silent. defenitely no!
we must print more fiat money.the gov. printing money with nothing to back it up is also criminally stupid imo
killing babies is good.there will be some terrible judgement for this. 
be a patriot. yep, i am proud and thankful to live in this country
take your poisonous vaccine and shut up.did your kids not get vaccinated against measles,polio, etc.?
we need to reform the best healthcare in the world.see criminally stupid
pay your unconstitutional taxes.i can only say it's the law of the land and until it's changed, i'll do it, no matter how much i hate it
we must bailout aig.criminal
saddam has weapons of mass destruction.yes he did, according to almost every intelligence agency in the world
accept our unbiblical laws.if we disobey a law we believe is unbiblical, we must be prepared to take the consequences

it never ends. At least not until jesus puts an end to this mess. There are gonna be a lot of people surprised at who the real enemies are...true, Jesus will put an end to it, starting when he sets foot on the mount of olives again, and I'm planning on being with him!

jesus said that our (his sheep) enemies will be those of our own household....   Hmmm. Maybe "household" here could mean house but also, country...[/quote]


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 27, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> [color=[/QUOTE]
> 
> 
> just curious... but why would you un-capitalize "Jesus"...?


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## tell sackett (Jan 27, 2010)

I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't un-capped anything.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 27, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> I have no idea what you're talking about. I haven't un-capped anything.



if you look at my post, you'll see i capitalized the word Jesus... but in your response to my post, "Jesus" was uncapitalized....  no big deal.  just curious...


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## tell sackett (Jan 27, 2010)

ok, I see what you mean. Something's going on with this computer, every time I hit post reply, it quotes your post #32. 

So what is your interpretation of Rom.13?


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 27, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> ok, I see what you mean. Something's going on with this computer, every time I hit post reply, it quotes your post #32.
> 
> So what is your interpretation of Rom.13?



my interpretation means zero. i'm commanded by God to not even give "my" interpretation... but i will be happy to give you my opinion of what i think the Bible's interpretation to be... tomorrow... when i can stay awake...


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 27, 2010)

3weimies said:


> Surely we should help them and other needy souls of the world. My question is, Their country was in pitiful shape for many many years before this quake. Where were the hollywood and music types and media before now?



When the Camera's leave, so will they...

I won't tell anyone to give (Not pointed at you 3 weimies), that's between you and the Lord, But I will say if you do feel like you need to give, find a organazation that has been there for years and plans on staying for years.


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## earl (Jan 27, 2010)

The US has installed dictators in Iraq,Soth Amaerica ,and a few other places. Wonder why they missed Haiti ?


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## rjcruiser (Jan 27, 2010)

earl said:


> The US has installed dictators in Iraq,Soth Amaerica ,and a few other places. Wonder why they missed Haiti ?



Earl...you sure are hitting the cough medicine early today

Really...earl...dictators in Iraq?  South America? Other places?

Where and who?  Just curious.

Oh...and to give you the answer you're desiring...because they don't have any oil


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## earl (Jan 27, 2010)

Nydol is good stuf !!!!!!!!!!!!! 

You are correct about the oil though. The US is picky withspreading Democracy.

FWIW  ,I happen to look great in my tinfoil hat.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 27, 2010)

earl said:


> Nydol is good stuf !!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You are correct about the oil though. The US is picky withspreading Democracy.
> 
> FWIW  ,I happen to look great in my tinfoil hat.



well...the really crappy thing is that we go to iraq, free a bunch of people and then Obama comes in...screws up some negotiations...and the chinese end up with the oil contracts.

So...we end up getting nothing out of the deal.

Okay...this is way off topic and probably more in suit for the political forum...but I digress.


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## WTM45 (Jan 27, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...and to give you the answer you're desiring...because they don't have any oil



Are you sure?

Platform drilling.  Geologists have been keeping quiet about the region for a reason.  Would make for a VERY close terminal with lower shipment costs.
Shhhhhhhh........


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## rjcruiser (Jan 27, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Are you sure?
> 
> Platform drilling.  Geologists have been keeping quiet about the region for a reason.  Would make for a VERY close terminal with lower shipment costs.
> Shhhhhhhh........



Didn't think about a shipping terminal.  Hmmm....maybe our guys are down there for a reason.

Wonder how many special ops guys are down there doing things that we don't know about.  Easy to hide bodies when their are mass graves on each corner.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 27, 2010)

earl said:


> The US has installed dictators in Iraq,Soth Amaerica ,and a few other places. Wonder why they missed Haiti ?



give 'em time earl... the govt can only invade so many countries at one time... now that they're in haiti, they will probably never get us out... especially if there is oil in haiti.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2010)

JustUs4All said:


> I agree with all of that except the "so they can rebuild" part.  I believe most of what is there was originally either built or funded by outsiders.


The French built it and were there until about 1791.  Then the Haitian Revolution began and they killed every French: man, woman, child, and baby they could get their hands on.  The place has been a mess since then.


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## dawg2 (Jan 27, 2010)

earl said:


> The US has installed dictators in Iraq,Soth Amaerica ,and a few other places. Wonder why they missed Haiti ?



You left out North and Central America


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## WTM45 (Jan 27, 2010)

earl said:


> The US has installed dictators in Iraq,Soth Amaerica ,and a few other places. Wonder why they missed Haiti ?



Change that to "supported the installation of dictators" and you would be much more accurate.

Shall we go forward with "Manifest Destiny" and take Haiti/DR?  It would ensure MLB a more stable talent pool.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 27, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> ok, I see what you mean. Something's going on with this computer, every time I hit post reply, it quotes your post #32.
> 
> So what is your interpretation of Rom.13?



i'll answer your question and briefly. i have learned not to spend a whole lotta time trying to point out Biblical matters on here... usually falls on deaf ears...

Rom 13:6
For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
Sounds like we have to blindly pay tribute to Caesar, right?
Wrong… Jesus is our example…  did Jesus pay tribute to the govt?   No…  did Jesus praise His nation? No.

Luke 23:2
And they began to accuse Him, saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that He himself is Christ a King.
If Paul and the Apostles commanded us believers to blindly follow Caesar… why did they get persecuted? Thrown in jail? Murdered?

Why would Caesar do that to people who are commanding others to obey the govt?  it doesn’t make sense.  The Apostles were murdered by the govt because they were setting up the Kingdom of Heaven which teaches a different form of govt with Jesus as the King. Can a Christian have 2 kings? No. Jesus is our King, not Caesar nor obama. We are members of another Kingdom. Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world”. How can we be under Caesar and Jesus when they totally contradict each other? There is no institution in the world that is more antagonistic to Christ then world govts.

God has given us govt so that they would be a minister to good works and punish evil… their powers are limited by God. God is the only lawgiver. is that what they do when they drop bombs on innocent people? What about when they kill babies? Legalize sodomy? Steal from the rich and give to the poor? Tax people to death so that they can go start a war in iraq for false reasons.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12:2, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world". Obeying the ungodly secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be bowing to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). There is no greater group of unbelievers than those in the world govts… so how can we “yoke” with them and please God?

Romans 6:16 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness.
If we are enslaved to Caesar, how can we be servants to Christ?

People think that ALL govt is ordained from God, but is that Biblical?

No…  Hosea at 8:4, “They have set up kings, but not by Me: they have made princes, and I knew it not.”  What did the unbelieving Jews say when they were about to kill Christ? “We have no king but Caesar…”

I wonder what Christ thinks when we say we can honor both king obama and King Jesus at the same time??? We have to choose who we will serve. Either we choose the kingdom of the world or the kingdom of heaven…


2 John 1:10-11
10 If there come ANY unto you, and bring not this doctrine (Word of God), receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:  11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

What is a “doctrine”?
doc•trine    (freedictionary.com)  
1. A principle or body of principles presented for acceptance or belief, as by a religious, political, scientific, or philosophic group; dogma.
2. A rule or principle of law, especially when established by precedent.
3. A statement of official government policy, especially in foreign affairs and military strategy.
So as you can see a doctrine can be a govt or military rule… it does not have to be a religious dogma.

What “doctrine” does the govt bring and force upon their people?  

1)	abortion
2)	legal sodomy
3)	theft thru taxation
4)	genocide
5)	make the Bible hate speech
6)	ungodly laws
7)	gay marriage legal
8)	false wars (iraq) 
9)	corruption
10)	unconstitutional property taxes

when a person blindly submits and praises a govt that does these types of things, they become partakers in their evil deeds…

thats enough for me to see that i dont want God to consider me a partaker of their evil deeds...  and there is dozens and dozens of Bible verses that calls believers to be a separate and peculiar people...  are we separate and peculiar when we go down to the local rally, hold signs up and scream for our politician...?  nah. we're being just like the world. if you research the "world" in the Bible... you'll see that Gods opinion of the world is not too favorable...
anyway, just wanted to answer your question.

<!--Begin SermonAudio Link Button--><SCRIPT LANGUAGE=JavaScript type=text/javascript src=http://www.sermonaudio.com/code_sourcefeatured.asp?reversecolor=FALSE&showoverview=FALSE&flashplayer=FALSE&tiny=FALSE&video=FALSE&minimal=FALSE&sermonid=111302121720></SCRIPT><!--End SermonAudio Link Button-->


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## WTM45 (Jan 27, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i'll answer your question and briefly. i have learned not to spend a whole lotta time trying to point out Biblical matters on here... usually falls on deaf ears...



Self appointed authority over interpretation?


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## earl (Jan 27, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Change that to "supported the installation of dictators" and you would be much more accurate.
> 
> Shall we go forward with "Manifest Destiny" and take Haiti/DR?  It would ensure MLB a more stable talent pool.





Or we could buy it. And set up a government backed religion. Can you imagine the resort vacation possibilities in a Protetant only Carribean Paradise ????


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## rjcruiser (Jan 27, 2010)

earl said:


> Or we could buy it. And set up a government backed religion. Can you imagine the resort vacation possibilities in a Protetant only Carribean Paradise ????



Modesty suits only 

oh...and no alcohol sales on Sundays


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## tell sackett (Jan 28, 2010)

earl said:


> Or we could buy it. And set up a government backed religion. Can you imagine the resort vacation possibilities in a Protetant only Carribean Paradise ????


Too hot down there. We need to put it in the mountains.


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## tell sackett (Jan 28, 2010)

bh, this is the first time I've been on the forum since our discussion the other night and I just read your post on Rom.13. I wanted to reply, but I'm going to be brief too(I hope), we really should have started another thread instead of de-railing this one further I guess. Oh well.

First I want to say that I don't think that you'll find any believers on this forum advocating worship of any gov't. There is a big difference in worshipping and honoring. More on that later.

I notice in your first comments about Rom.13 that you use v.6 only, but if you read all all the first seven verses in context, it seems pretty obvious that Paul is teaching  obedience to the authorities. Look at v.1-Let every soul be subject to the higher powers.. .V.2 says that those who resist the powers resist the ordinance of God and recieve ****ation.

About v.6, Jesus did teach that we are to pay tribute. See Matt.17:24-27&22:17-21.

Paul also taught about obedience to the ruling authorities in 1Tim.2:1-3 and Titus3:1-2; Peter also teaches it in1Pe.2:12-17.

 Notice two things in 1Pe. 1) He says in v.13 that we are to do this for the Lord's sake. If you read these verses and what Paul taught I think a large part of the reason we are to be obedient to the gov't is to be a testimony to unbelievers. 2)Peter says in v.17 we are to fear God, but honor the king. There's a huge difference in those two actions. Nowhere does Paul or Peter say that we are to worship the gov't. That's the reason first century believers were persecuted and killed. They refused to worship Caesar as a god, but they were taught to honor him even in the face of persecution.

The scripture you referred to in Hosea is speaking of the kings of Israel in the divided kingdom(see2Ki.15:23,25). God did ordain the first king of Israel(1Sam. ch.8),when they insisted on having one, but He also warned them of the consequences.

Some other verses about obeying kings and gov't: Prov.16:14-15,24:21,25:15; Ecc.8:1-5;Jer.29:7.

I do agree with you that we are to be seperate from the world; we are not to be of the world, but we have to be in the world. Just because the gov't passes laws making ungodly things (abortion, sodomy etc.) legal doesn't mean we have to participate in them. We should work within the gov't to get those laws changed even when those who want to marginalize Christianity tell us we should sit down and shut up.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 28, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> bh, this is the first time I've been on the forum since our discussion the other night and I just read your post on Rom.13. I wanted to reply, but I'm going to be brief too(I hope), we really should have started another thread instead of de-railing this one further I guess. Oh well.
> 
> First I want to say that I don't think that you'll find any believers on this forum advocating worship of any gov't. There is a big difference in worshipping and honoring. More on that later.
> 
> ...




the govt is a minister unto righteousness and justice. thats the authority they have by God.  authority and power are 2 different things. they have the power to make thousands of bogus laws (along with a few good ones) but they dont have the authority.  God is the only Lawgiver, not osama.

the govt is supposed to enforce Gods laws but they ignore them totally and make up their own. the same with the church and the family.  the church should teach God. the family should follow God and the govt should enforce Gods laws...  but they dont. they enforce their own laws which are almost always are opposite of Gods laws.  theres my issue with it.  they displace God and His rules for their own rules making themselves sovereign instead of God. they have usurped His laws and authority.

i agree that we are to obey the laws of the land if they dont conflict with Gods laws. but the blind submission that people give the govt is putrid. our govt is no different than any others. they are tyranical and oppress the people.  

if the Apostles lived in the modern day, could you imagine them going down to a political rally? how about Jesus? i dont think so...  they are our example.  if they did go, it would be to witness to the politicians.

people are getting bamboozled by the govt but they dont care... just blind submission...  govt is not the friend of Christians...  never has or will be.

we are commanded to have nothing to do with the unfruitful works of darkness. its a command and not a suggestion.  i would make a guess that a group of men that legalize sodomy, gay marriage, promote evil, and kill babies would be considered "unfruitful works of darkness"...  just a hunch.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 28, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> <!--Begin SermonAudio Link Button--><SCRIPT LANGUAGE=JavaScript type=text/javascript src=http://www.sermonaudio.com/code_sourcefeatured.asp?reversecolor=FALSE&showoverview=FALSE&flashplayer=FALSE&tiny=FALSE&video=FALSE&minimal=FALSE&sermonid=111302121720></SCRIPT><!--End SermonAudio Link Button-->




On your recommendation, I listened to a few of this guy's sermons.  What's up with his love affair with the Confederacy? 

He's got an absolute "man crush" on Jefferson Davis.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 28, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> On your recommendation, I listened to a few of this guy's sermons.  What's up with his love affair with the Confederacy?
> 
> He's got an absolute "man crush" on Jefferson Davis.




i dont think you listened to any of them... people in your religion are discouraged from listening to teachings outside of their church.

but if you did...  why is it you can go get brainwashed by the govt schools on history... and thats ok...  but somebody else comes along and wants to give you the truth of what actually happened during the civil war and you blame the guy for being a homo?


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## centerpin fan (Jan 28, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i dont think you listened to any of them...



I listened to three and decided I'd had enough.  Look at some of his sermon titles:


_Why the South Must Rise Again

Jack Hinson, Confederate Sniper

Truth About Andersonville Prison

Jefferson Davis Revisited

Little Aleck – Confederate Memorial Day

Conversion of Gen. Richard Ewell

The Union’s War Against Women and Children

The Truth About the Confederate Battle Flag

The Revival in the Confederate Armies

Confederate Sacrifices

Who Were the Rebels?

The Christian Character of Robert E. Lee

The Confederate Chaplains

Is the Confederate Flag a Symbol of Hate?  (Parts 1 and 2)_


If that's not a warning sign, I don't know what is.




BeenHuntn said:


> people in your religion are discouraged from listening to teachings outside of their church.



You don't even know where I go to church, much less what they teach.




BeenHuntn said:


> but somebody else comes along and wants to give you the truth of what actually happened during the civil war and you blame the guy for being a homo?



I said he had a "man crush" -- big difference.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 28, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> I listened to three and decided I'd had enough.  Look at some of his sermon titles:
> 
> 
> _Why the South Must Rise Again
> ...




so whats your problem with the confederacy?


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## centerpin fan (Jan 28, 2010)

Don't you think that's a little heavy emphasis on the glories of the Confederacy?  I've been listening to sermons for a long time and have yet to hear any with titles like these.  He repeatedly praises southern leaders, constantly denigrates Lincoln and _always_ refers to the Civil War as "the war of northern aggression".  I've heard people do that in jest before, but he's serious.  Also, in the sermons I listened to, he never even mentioned slavery.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 28, 2010)

You say things like this.



BeenHuntn said:


> so whats your problem with the confederacy?



And then wonder this?



BeenHuntn said:


> i have learned not to spend a whole lotta time trying to point out Biblical matters on here... usually falls on deaf ears...


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## tell sackett (Jan 28, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the govt is a minister unto righteousness and justice. thats the authority they have by God.  authority and power are 2 different things. they have the power to make thousands of bogus laws (along with a few good ones) but they dont have the authority.  God is the only Lawgiver, not osama.
> 
> the govt is supposed to enforce Gods laws but they ignore them totally and make up their own. the same with the church and the family.  the church should teach God. the family should follow God and the govt should enforce Gods laws...  but they dont. they enforce their own laws which are almost always are opposite of Gods laws.  theres my issue with it.  they displace God and His rules for their own rules making themselves sovereign instead of God. they have usurped His laws and authority.
> 
> ...


How can a gov't have authority without power? Please use a concordance and  look up the word"power" that Paul uses in Rom.13 

Yes, if the gov't followed God's laws this would be a much better place, but the fact is we live in a fallen world governed by mostly fallen men; we just have to deal with it according to what Scripture teaches. I will say there is coming a day when the world will be ruled according to God's law.

I'm not advocating for going to political rallies,but I do think that if we get a chance to question politicians or candidates about their views, we should certainly do so. 

You're right, we are to have nothing to do with unfruitful works of darkness. Again, just because those laws are on the books doesn't mean we participate in them. We work to get them changed. I will say though that if we do a better job of giving out the gospel and bringing more people into the kingdom it would make changing the gov't easier.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 28, 2010)

centerpin fan said:


> Don't you think that's a little heavy emphasis on the glories of the Confederacy?  I've been listening to sermons for a long time and have yet to hear any with titles like these.  He repeatedly praises southern leaders, constantly denigrates Lincoln and _always_ refers to the Civil War as "the war of northern aggression".  I've heard people do that in jest before, but he's serious.  Also, in the sermons I listened to, he never even mentioned slavery.



he mentions slavery alot and explains how that war was not about slavery. personally i appreciate the fact that he is willing to take the time to research and discuss what really caused the civil war. it was a war of northern aggression. you must be from the north...


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 28, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> How can a gov't have authority without power? Please use a concordance and  look up the word"power" that Paul uses in Rom.13
> 
> Yes, if the gov't followed God's laws this would be a much better place, but the fact is we live in a fallen world governed by mostly fallen men; we just have to deal with it according to what Scripture teaches. I will say there is coming a day when the world will be ruled according to God's law.
> 
> ...



i agree with most of what you said but i dont want to further hijack the original topic. romans 13 would make another good topic... if yall want to further discuss.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 28, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> he mentions slavery alot and explains how that war was not about slavery.



He has almost 400 sermons listed on that site.  If he had one (just one) titled "The Evils of Slavery", or something along those lines, I'd feel a little better ... but he does not.




BeenHuntn said:


> you must be from the north...



No, I've spent my entire life in the south.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 28, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i dont want to further hijack the original topic.



Same here.


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## Tim L (Jan 28, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Too hot down there. We need to put it in the mountains.



I would have agreed with you years ago; but it's just too cold up there...If we are going to take over a country and turn it into a vacation paradise, i for one say let it be a carribean island...nice and warm in the winter; hot but still breezes in the summer...If Castro ever dies, maybe we can take over Cuba, in fact their probably welcome us with open arms; ....they all love baseball and drive big ol Amercian cars...ride around in 57 Chevy's down there; cheap seafood, good fishing; cheap but dry places to flop down at night......That would be nice...


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## earl (Jan 28, 2010)

Now I got a hankerin for a Cubano  samich ,a Cubano seegar and an ole Panhead.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 29, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> What “doctrine” does the govt bring and force upon their people?
> 
> 1)	abortion
> 2)	legal sodomy
> ...





AMEN!!! 

And Christians are dogged all the time for forcing their beliefs on others.

Not much longer...Lord come quickly!!


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## Tim L (Jan 29, 2010)

earl said:


> Now I got a hankerin for a Cubano  samich ,a Cubano seegar and an ole Panhead.



Yep


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## Big7 (Feb 1, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i'll answer your question and briefly. i have learned not to spend a whole lotta time trying to point out Biblical matters on here... usually falls on deaf ears...
> 
> 
> What “doctrine” does the govt bring and force upon their people?
> ...



"usually falls on deaf ears" 
On here???

I would take out #8 and add about a bazillion more
but I can't type that fast.

Just a question: Not a 

When we have to go into Iran (and we will) will
that be a "false war"??

And to be true to my faith I would use "Just War" instead.
Just sayin'

Footnote:
I believe any war with a govt and it's people that
engages in Islamist extremism is a "Just War".
If they had the means we infidels would ALL be dead.

infidels:
–noun 
1. Religion. a. a person who does not accept a particular faith, esp. Christianity. 

b. (in Christian use) an unbeliever, esp. a Muslim. 

c. (in Muslim use) a person who does not accept the Islamic faith; kaffir. 

Found HERE: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/infidels


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