# Sick of it



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

Hypocrisy, that is. 

If I make light that I view God as a magical friend in the clouds I'm insulting someone else's views even though I'm talking about my own, and insulting them indirectly is bad.

BUT, if someone states directly that those who don't believe are perverted, or incapable of being good people and telling right from wrong, then that's fine. 

The arrogance, hypocrisy, and condescension appalls me. 

/Rant. Thank you.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> ... those who don't believe are perverted, or incapable of being good people and telling right from wrong.



I don't believe that.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe that.



I've noticed that this is a common post from you. That you are often at odds with what other Christians hold to be true. 

While I appreciate your exemption from that group, it all goes back to the other threads we've had regarding the lack of 100% common beliefs amongst people of the same religion/denomination/church/congregation.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

And that's all without saying anything about the gall it takes to call a homosexual person an "it" and then tuck tail and duck the question when challenged about it. 

If these are the measures of righteous beings then I am glad to say that I am errant. I recognize that flawed people, those that do things I don't condone or don't agree with, are still people at all.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I've noticed that this is a common post from you. That you are often at odds with what other Christians hold to be true.



I started to type "No Christian believes that" (regarding the OP) but caught myself because there might be some who do.  I've just not noticed it from the regular Christian posters in this forum.




StripeRR HunteRR said:


> While I appreciate your exemption from that group, it all goes back to the other threads we've had regarding the lack of 100% common beliefs amongst people of the same religion/denomination/church/congregation.



Does any group on the planet have 100% common beliefs?  If you're not sure, go to the Sports forum and start a thread with this title:

"Mark Richt is the greatest football coach in the solar system."


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And that's all without saying anything about the gall it takes to call a homosexual person an "it" and then tuck tail and duck the question when challenged about it.



I missed that post.


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 8, 2013)

I think that was just an example....


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## stringmusic (Nov 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And that's all without saying anything about the gall it takes to call a homosexual person an "it" and then tuck tail and duck the question when challenged about it.
> 
> If these are the measures of righteous beings then I am glad to say that I am errant. I recognize that flawed people, those that do things I don't condone or don't agree with, are still people at all.



What thread are you referring to? Or did you run into someone today that has made you upset?


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## stringmusic (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I started to type "No Christian believes that" (regarding the OP) but caught myself because there might be some who do.  I've just not noticed it from the regular Christian posters in this forum.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I think that was just an example....



I really don't know what post/thread you guys are talking about.  Point it out, and I'll respond.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I started to type "No Christian believes that" (regarding the OP) but caught myself because there might be some who do.  I've just not noticed it from the regular Christian posters in this forum.
> 
> Look in the PF. The threads and comments I'm reciting here are there. I can assure you, at least as much as can be comprehended based on their posts, that there are those who do believe this. It could all be a joke, but they don't seem to back off of it, or care to clarify when questioned, so they either don't respect me enough to answer, or don't have a response because it's truly their belief and the position is indefensible.
> 
> ...



I'm ranting here, not looking to solve or discuss anything, per se.


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## JB0704 (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe that.



Me either....in fact, I think the majority of Christians on this board would feel the same.

When people gather around with like-minded thinkers, they develop a lot of theoretical premises. For Chrsitians, one of these is that without a basis morality cannot be achieved because there is nothing to judge an action against.  

Personally, I think we are all capable of knowing right from wrong, and non-believers are capable of being good and decent people as it is not the belief that makes the action correct or incorrect, but the action itself.

That being said, to the OP, you may find better examples of what you are talking about in the political forum.  Some of the things that get said down there are just plain perplexing given certain individual's claimed belief systems.

EDIT:   I posted the above ^^^^ before I read the OP's comments about the PF


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8232427&postcount=135

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8232058&postcount=124

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=8231884&postcount=118

Etc. There's a lot of it in that thread, but it's not exclusive to it.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

*Administrative note*

I have a hard time reading red text.  I don't think it shows up well with the light brown background of this site.  I always try to use blue text as an easier-on-the-eyes alternative.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

Some have since responded, but haven't rescinded their positions, merely backpedalled on calling me out on it in order to try to unruffle feathers. 

It doesn't work that way, those are called platitudes. Either you believe one way or you don't, and you've already been clear with your position, at least until you were called out on it.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I have a hard time reading red text.  I don't think it shows up well with the light brown background of this site.  I always try to use blue text as an easier-on-the-eyes alternative.



I have a hard time telling the blue and black apart, so I can't see what was OP and what is response.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> What thread are you referring to? Or did you run into someone today that has made you upset?



It's been something that has been building within me any time someone in the PF, or even up here, states that knowing right from wrong, or having a moral code, or proposing laws are meaningless without a higher power. 

In short, they're telling me that my beliefs, on those topics, are invalid because I don't subscribe to God all the while telling me that I insult them by questioning God, and not expecting me to be insulted about the insinuations they make about my personal character.


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## JB0704 (Nov 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It's been something that has been building within me any time someone in the PF, or even up here, states that knowing right from wrong, or having a moral code, or proposing laws are meaningless without a higher power.
> 
> In short, they're telling me that my beliefs, on those topics, are invalid because I don't subscribe to God all the while telling me that I insult them by questioning God, and not expecting me to be insulted about the insinuations they make about my personal character.



I think the issue is that any basis to judge an action against is subjective.

That doesn't mean that you aren't a good person, or are incapable of doing good things.  It just means that the evaluation of an action is through arbitrary parameters.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think the issue is that any basis to judge an action against is subjective.
> 
> That doesn't mean that you aren't a good person, or are incapable of doing good things.  It just means that the evaluation of an action is through arbitrary parameters.



Here's the thing, my identity isn't threatened, here. I know what kind of person I am, and I fought hard to reclaim that identity after my divorce. 

Like I said, it's the arrogance, condescension, and gall that it takes to do all of that, and still call yourself a loving Christian person that amazes me.


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## David Parker (Nov 8, 2013)

Take them in stride.  My big honkin family spreads out all over the SE USA and most are very devout and I love them all and love their spirituality.  It comes down to the principle of blind faith.  If a person can excuse reason and whole-heartedly believe something that science and reason suggest can't be, don't try to understand them using reason.  Just accept them I guess is what I'm saying.  You'll be far more satisfied.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No worries.
> 
> I wasn't in the barracks except for basic and AIT, so I didn't deal with it that much.
> 
> ...



So this was my OP, to which Ross replied;



RossVegas said:


> I was in the barracks during my entire enlistment.  _I'd have gotten court martial-ed the first time it looked at me wrong_.



The first time what "it" looked at you wrong? 

Is he speaking as a euphemism for his male organ looking his direction, or is he speaking that the person is the "it"? 

So far there's been no clarification, despite participating in other portions of the thread. 

Am I wrong in reading that the way that I am?


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 8, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Take them in stride.  My big honkin family spreads out all over the SE USA and most are very devout and I love them all and love their spirituality.  It comes down to the principle of blind faith.  If a person can excuse reason and whole-heartedly believe something that science and reason suggest can't be, don't try to understand them using reason.  Just accept them I guess is what I'm saying.  You'll be far more satisfied.



I hear you, but this is my process. I have to blow off a little bit of steam every now and again, but since this is the internet it doesn't make sense to do it at home, but rather here.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2013)

First off you will find more radical Christians on the political forum for some reason. Some almost appear to have hatred in them, hopefully not.
You will be more represented on this forum where we show more respect, sometimes.
Check out some of the past threads where we did indeed discuss morals. We've had a few. As a Christian I don't believe we have a monopoly on morals. Some Christians do believe only Christians can have morals.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You will be more represented on this forum where we show more respect, sometimes.



Shut your pie hole, you filthy degenerate.













Just kidding.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> First off you will find more radical Christians on the political forum for some reason.



I don't know if they're more radical, but the Christians on GON generally post in either the PF or the Spiritual forum.  For some reason, there's not much crossover.  It seems to me, though, that the Spiritual forum Christians are more likely to post in the PF than vice versa.


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## stringmusic (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Shut your pie hole, you filthy degenerate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You probably get tired of seeing me quote you and put a , but you're just a funny human.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 8, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You probably get tired of seeing me quote you and put a , but you're just a funny human.



Thank you!  I'm also available for weddings and bar mitzvahs.


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## hummdaddy (Nov 8, 2013)

i have to say that is why i am so angry when i visit ya'll here in this forum.... some of the vile supposed christians they call themselves in the political forum is just putrid and i am sorry if i take it out on some of ya'll in here...your suppose to love thy neighbor!!!they want a season for gays!!!

we are all human,live in this  great country,and i live by the constitution that was put together by great minds....it's ok to be different as long as there are no victims....


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't know if they're more radical, but the Christians on GON generally post in either the PF or the Spiritual forum.  For some reason, there's not much crossover.  It seems to me, though, that the Spiritual forum Christians are more likely to post in the PF than vice versa.



I've noticed that too. I sometimes wonder why the Christians in the PF don't post in the religious forums. 
I feel that some of the Christians up here don't post on the PF is because "everything goes." It's kinda uncomfortable trying to identify with fellow hostile Christians. Not much compassion or meekness down that way. These are just my observations and don't represent the feelings of all Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2013)

hummdaddy said:


> i have to say that is why i am so angry when i visit ya'll here in this forum.... some of the vile supposed christians they call themselves in the political forum is just putrid and i am sorry if i take it out on some of ya'll in here...your suppose to love thy neighbor!!!they want a season for gays!!!
> 
> we are all human,live in this  great country,and i live by the constitution that was put together by great minds....it's ok to be different as long as there are no victims....



I've noticed that since you have a  true disability and can't work, you are somehow grouped with all of the true deadbeats who are faking it just to get a fat government check. The fakers have ruined it for the people with real problems. That's just something you must live with. You can thank the fakers for that.
The other problem is because you are a stay and home Dad and your wife works. Nevermind it is out of necessity. 
Personally I would not have a problem staying home with my kids if my wife made more than me and enough that we could make it on one income. I still believe children are better off if one parent stays home to raise the children regardless of which parent it is.
All that plus you are a Liberal.

What's weird is when losing in a debate they bring up your family life as a rebuttal instead of sticking to the issues.


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## hummdaddy (Nov 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've noticed that too. I sometimes wonder why the Christians in the PF don't post in the religious forums.
> I feel that some of the Christians up here don't post on the PF is because "everything goes." It's kinda uncomfortable trying to identify with fellow hostile Christians. Not much compassion or meekness down that way. These are just my observations and don't represent the feelings of all Christians.



my observation too and i know i don't come across very well most of the time...working on it


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 8, 2013)

I'm a fiscal conservative but liberal on social issues. Not too many Christians like me so I get it from everyone. I'm pretty fundamental in my religious beliefs and don't follow easy believism which is a liberal religious view. Hard to pin me down with a label. I'm a little bit Country and a little bit Rock & Roll.


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## David Parker (Nov 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Thank you!  I'm also available for weddings and bar mitzvahs.



Mr Sandler?


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## David Parker (Nov 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Personally I would not have a problem staying home with my kids if my wife made more than me and enough that we could make it on one income. I still believe children are better off if one parent stays home to raise the children regardless of which parent it is.


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## PopPop (Nov 8, 2013)

I think I may have contributed to the OPs angst. I actually respect his opinions and intelligence. Being a Christian myself and not caring about Gay Marriage puts me in rare company. I am perfectly content with equal but not supra rights for gays. I am also content to let my "imaginary friend in the clouds" have his way. 
I know that there are many millions of good men who are atheist, I was one of them.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 9, 2013)

The number one single reason I initially got interested in the spiritual forums here was to try to understand why on earth people in the political forum would say the things they did and say the things they hoped for and still boast in being sometimes the only! bona fide christians on the planet.

I have, after many yrs of studying this, come to the conclusion that some of the political spiners are bullies that would kiss a baby and drag Jesus to the polls with enough self congratulation to make pork barrel dipping their due and tithe and war and conflict their entertainment. It is the purpose of the policial forum spin doctors to keep the horses mouth tender.

It is what it is. So... I only visit regards economic matters. Spinning numbers is harder to do compared to morality and behaviours. The political forum is one of the only place or venue I know left in the civilized world, where killing the messager is good form. Yes! the spin will reach that far back...to win the day. And the killing part...well that now tells me alot...on what kind of christians I dealth with.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've noticed that too. I sometimes wonder why the Christians in the PF don't post in the religious forums.



Actions are driven by values based on beliefs.  That's true for everyone.  If a Christian is spending a very precious commodity, time, posting in the PF instead of the RF, it probably suggests that they believe either that they can have a larger impact in the PF, or that politics are more important, or that they are a CINO.  Either way, they are misguided in my humble opinion.


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## bushidobam (Nov 9, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And that's all without saying anything about the gall it takes to call a homosexual person an "it" and then tuck tail and duck the question when challenged about it.



Sorry, don't chime in too often, but I know exactly the thread and member you speak of. Pretty pathetic.

That particular thread is a fine example of what members of the 'club' can get away with saying around here without consequence. I'd just love to see one of them try and pull a racial slur from behind the safety of their big bad avatars.


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## Bobby Jackson (Nov 9, 2013)

The Political Forum here is becoming more,more of a JOKE everyday.
Full of Bigots,racists and narrow minded dimwits who think they have such a superior intellect,they mostly just resort to personal insults whenever they have no valid debate or argument to a valid question.

Sad.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 9, 2013)

Bobby Jackson said:


> The Political Forum here is becoming more,more of a JOKE everyday.
> 
> they mostly just resort to personal insults whenever they have no valid debate or argument to a valid question.
> 
> Sad.



I see that on the Political Forum too. If you can't argue your point then leave it at that. It really makes ones side of the argument look bad when the insults start. I might start to listen to their point if the insults and name calling didn't start.


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## Bobby Jackson (Nov 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I might start to listen to their point if the insults and name calling didn't start.



Agree..but it wont happen over there..


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## David Parker (Nov 10, 2013)

Why not.  Just drop the entire PF right?  Other than cutesy ribbing, I don't engage in personal attack.  It's against the rulez.  If it's not your cup of tea, I kindly bid you good day.  On the flip, there are some issues that come up and some posters get chippy, just like in life.  Alot of life's problems are dealt with by ignoring them and moving on.  Not a perfect solution but an effective one.  In terms of the PF, it works just as well.  It ain't Paymaster's Food Forum, it's peoples' scruples and morality up in there and if there wasn't emotion too, it wouldn't be as intersting.


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## Bobby Jackson (Nov 10, 2013)

David Parker said:


> it wouldn't be as intersting.



Its not interesting or entertaining or informative or much use of anything anymore to have someone with a altering viewpoint to get attacked,berated and namecalling soon follows..

its become a little Ultra right wing clubhouse that is over run with small minds and people with small....well,nevermind


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 10, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Why not.  Just drop the entire PF right?  Other than cutesy ribbing, I don't engage in personal attack.  It's against the rulez.  If it's not your cup of tea, I kindly bid you good day.  On the flip, there are some issues that come up and some posters get chippy, just like in life.  Alot of life's problems are dealt with by ignoring them and moving on.  Not a perfect solution but an effective one.  In terms of the PF, it works just as well.  It ain't Paymaster's Food Forum, it's peoples' scruples and morality up in there and if there wasn't emotion too, it wouldn't be as intersting.



I can understand the emotions of posting on the PF but it still doesn't justify the name calling and such. As an example if someone defends a gay person they are soon labeled as a gay person. Usually in a very derogatory way.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 10, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I hear you, but this is my process. I have to blow off a little bit of steam every now and again, but since this is the internet it doesn't make sense to do it at home, but rather here.



Anytime I go into the PF and sit down to have a drink, it doesn't take me long to grab my drink and leave.
I suspect half of all the comments made on the PF are made in gest, and not a lot of thought put in most of the comments.

There are some exceptions......  But I don't see a lot of exceptions.  The PF is what it is.  Many people enjoy it.  The PF is a tough crowd.  They aren't going to roll over for you!.......... or me!............... and that's probably why you brought it back here!

So aren't you doing the same thing here that you accuse them of doing there?


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 11, 2013)

PopPop said:


> I think I may have contributed to the OPs angst. I actually respect his opinions and intelligence. Being a Christian myself and not caring about Gay Marriage puts me in rare company. I am perfectly content with equal but not supra rights for gays. I am also content to let my "imaginary friend in the clouds" have his way.
> I know that there are many millions of good men who are atheist, I was one of them.



We're cool, if you're cool.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Anytime I go into the PF and sit down to have a drink, it doesn't take me long to grab my drink and leave.
> I suspect half of all the comments made on the PF are made in gest, and not a lot of thought put in most of the comments.
> 
> There are some exceptions......  But I don't see a lot of exceptions.  The PF is what it is.  Many people enjoy it.  The PF is a tough crowd.  They aren't going to roll over for you!.......... or me!............... and that's probably why you brought it back here!
> ...



I brought it here because it applies to some people's views on AAA's and other people. 

I took the religious discussions out of the PF and to the religion subforums. 

Like I said early on, I just needed to vent more than anything and that this was the appropriate forum for it since it dealt solely with religion and how people who believe view the remainder of the world who doesn't, and those who don't conform to their beliefs.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 11, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Thereby leaving the conclusion that you a comfortable with the way those who do not believe view those who do.



How do "those who don't believe" view those "who do?"

Is there a unified view that I've missed out on? 

If you want to discuss how I view believers, then ask me and we can discuss it at length, but please don't pigeonhole me with anyone else. 

I have said that it takes a logical leap, and, what appears to me like, a suspense of logic to believe fully in a religion or a faith. 

Some here have suggested that I have said that they are completely without logic, or incapable of logic. 

If that's the way it's been perceived then I apologize, because that's not how I view anyone. I do, however, believe that it takes, at least, a selective lack of application of logic to believe, or it wouldn't be called faith, it would be understanding. 

In other words, some of the smartest people I know, engineers and other technical people, only for example, who get paid to apply deductive logic to complex systems turn a blind eye to their religion when it comes to the challenging questions. For a list of the questions, search no further than this forum, and look at how many people resort to circular logic, which is rife with fallacy, to justify their claims. I still have mountains of respect for them, especially when they, from a position of their faith, can find a way to talk with me about morality and social constructs without trying to invalidate my entire world simply because I don't share their faith. Where I lose that respect is from people who call other people "it"s, and people who view me as a heathen and lesser human who has no moral capacity or code of ethics without first believing in something that has 0 proof outside of the book they preach from. 

Trying to argue from a standpoint of religion, especially when it comes to morality and ethics being applied to someone else is similar to arguing that we should do X because I believe Larry Bird was the greatest basketball player of all time. 

Beliefs are fine, but it is an illusion to think that they are all the same. Again, look no further than here for Christians, people of the same faith, distancing themselves from one another on hotly contested issues, from gay marriage down to the consumption of alcohol and using swear words. There's no unified message and singularly codified set of rules for people of the same faith to follow, so how can anyone presume to argue them as if they were stone, to someone outside of their faith, when they can't get their own house in order? 

My point, in the end, is that beliefs, and religions, are fine for those who want to believe, but they make bad positions to argue anything from, even within your own group, let alone to the exterior world.


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## David Parker (Nov 11, 2013)

Sounds more like the issues are rooted in the religions (and non-religions) and not really politically motivated.  But both are sensitive and I get it.  Sorry things went bad to all who sincerely show respect in their debate.  I try to anyway.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2013)

Reasonably intelligent people are spending time, money, and organization on a secular mindset with which they 'do not even believe..?

Is that even possible?  I'm beginning to doubt it.  
The atheist on this forum must be struggling for answers
 and I pray that one day they'll be able to end that
 struggle with the necessary faith.  Logical faith.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 11, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Sounds more like the issues are rooted in the religions (and non-religions) and not really politically motivated.  But both are sensitive and I get it.  Sorry things went bad to all who sincerely show respect in their debate.  I try to anyway.



And there is one of the great problems with heated discussions on a forum.  Respect.  People often aren't able to realize the need to be respectful (nice) to those they disagree with.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 11, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> I responded to your generalization; sorry if you didn’t mean it.
> 
> No worries. Cooler heads and all that.
> 
> ...



Thank you.


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## WaltL1 (Nov 11, 2013)

> It just occurred to me that the vagaries of the scientific community are not as widely known, or discussed, as those of the spiritual community. Why is that?


Because science doesn't present theories, beliefs, guesses etc as facts until they are proven to be a fact? There is a lot less to argue about when science says "here's what we think and we are working to determine if what we think is right or wrong".
I don't think anybody could honestly say the same about the spiritual community?


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## WaltL1 (Nov 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Reasonably intelligent people are spending time, money, and organization on a secular mindset with which they 'do not even believe..?
> 
> Is that even possible?  I'm beginning to doubt it.
> The atheist on this forum must be struggling for answers
> ...


When you require from yourself to give an answer that is based on proof, facts, evidence or logic its not nearly as easy as it is to give an answer based on only what you believe.


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## hummerpoo (Nov 11, 2013)

StripeRR,

I would surmise that your proof depends on the connotation of the word proof.

proof
noun 
1. 
evidence sufficient to establish a thing as true, or to produce belief in its truth.

Correct, we are not on the same page.  I will not fault you for being on the wrong page and trust that you will reciprocate. 

Here's the thing about science. They admit two things that I have not seen religion do. Science will say, "I don't know," but add the caveat of "yet." Science will also say that it was wrong, and alter the thesis to support the observable facts. Science does not rest on its laurels and pride themselves on one "answer." Science is a search for the next answer. 

Now, all of that applies to the pure sciences and scientists. Just like there are people who pervert religion for their own gain there are scientists who tamper with the truth to support an idea. The climate change folks come to mind, as an example, and they are not "true" scientists. True scientists follow facts to a logical conclusion, whereas quacks only search out snippets of facts in order to support their pre-formed conclusions. 

My best guess is that you “have not seen religion do” these things for two reasons.  The first is that you have not accepted that the realm of the spiritual exists.  It is not my objective to show you that it does exist, however, I would ask you to acknowledge that physical proofs of spiritual truths is what you are asking for.  If you choose that acknowledgement, then the second reason would be that you are looking in the wrong place.  If you choose to look for them, you will find many in the spiritual community who will say “I don’t know” and free proclaim that they are “searching”.  From your current prospective you may not recognize those statements.

Boy, we sure agree on the climate change folks.  
Very few who read that early man was a tree dweller, as shown by a recently found toe bone, look far enough to find that it was found ten miles from the assumed matching heel bone which is required to substantiate the conclusion.

Please elaborate.
the speed of light = 299 792 458 m / s
metre ="the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299,792,458 of a second."[2]
I think these are the internationally approved definitions.
Although I don’t consider it a serious issue, it is illustrative.

I like the word “real”, but no degree of reality can jump the distance between God and man.  Only God can do that.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 11, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> StripeRR,
> 
> I would surmise that your proof depends on the connotation of the word proof.
> 
> ...



Have a good evening.


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## ambush80 (Nov 12, 2013)

It's interesting to me that when faced with painful life experiences many people either go with "there is a plan and a plan maker" or "no one is at the helm". 

Both positions provide comfort and explanation.  I suppose the same 'evidence' is available in both cases, just interpreted differently.  It makes me think of the time a friend of mine and I were working in an old house.  We both heard what sounded like footsteps upstairs and what sounded like a woman's voice.  We went upstairs and found no one.  There was a broken window and lots of broken furniture and rubbish.  My friend insisted there were ghosts because he likes to believe in ghosts.  I said it was the wind and rats.   

I've always wanted to ask those that struggled with and addiction that "only God was able to cure them of", what do they make of those that simply forced themselves to quit without resorting to 'god'?


----------



## hummdaddy (Nov 12, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It's interesting to me that when faced with painful life experiences many people either go with "there is a plan and a plan maker" or "no one is at the helm".
> 
> Both positions provide comfort and explanation.
> 
> I've always wanted to ask those that struggled with and addiction that "only God was able to cure them of", what do they make of those that simply forced themselves to quit without resorting to 'god'?



they thought it was hawgwash


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> I don't have the page open right now, since I'm typing, but if I remember correctly you claimed to have proof. That, my friend, is the definition of the word proof. If that's not what you have, then you, by definition, do not have proof. I can't tell you what you do have, but I can tell you it's not proof, by your own admissions.
> 
> Sorry, I got the definition from you.
> If only your parameters apply, well, I guess you are conversing with yourself.
> ...



My point to all of this is to say a few things:

1) Is this a test? And if not, then why do we need to hoe the road of the straight and narrow, or even try, if there is no pass/fail and can therefore be no punishment? If it is a test, which by the grading scale of pass/fail (heaven/HADES), it can be deduced that it is, then why hand us a rigged deck (leaving existence a mystery, and testing us at all) when some will, by pure mathematical odds, fail? What's the point? 

2) Religion can't answer any questions without getting relativistic, to their own faith, and you just proved it. You can't even abide the definition of the word proof, because you can't provide any for the existence of your deity. Further, no matter how small/large a group of believers, there will always be differences. Rationalize them to yourself all you want as problems with the person, but that many disparate messages, interpretations, rituals, rites, beliefs, and customs doesn't seem like the work of an all powerful being to me. It seems like the first project of a freshman college student taking their first course in communications and public speaking. The message is all garbled, no one really knows what is going on, and the author is counting down to the time they can retreat to their little bubble and leave the whole thing be. The divisions start at denomination and continue all the way down to individual members of congregations, reading the same text, hearing the same sermons, and participating in the same groups. A message with that much variance amongst its audience can't even be considered universal within their own congregation, let alone the denomination, or the main body, without even addressing the fact of trying to apply it to the world at large and passing them off as "truths".


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> StrippeRR,
> I'm sure that your ranting makes you feel better (as you stated above), and for that I am pleased. But, please acknowledge to yourself that "the definition" which you have so vehemently denied three times (as though I had introduced it) was simply a cut and paste from your post (#55).
> 
> I am sincerely sorry that I have been unable to understand your concerns sufficiently to answer you questions, or at least help with them, if that is your desire.
> ...



I was ranting in my early posts, not in these. I'm asking legitimate questions. 

How did I deny the definition of the word proof? You used the phrase that you disagree with my assertion of 0 proof, right? Which means that you have proof, which means that whatever you hold is in agreement with the word proof, by your own estimation.

You're the one who backed away from your disagreement with the phrase 0 proof as soon as I provided you THE, not my, definition of the word proof. 

This isn't a failure on my part, but it's nice that you've tried to play it off as one. (That part seems to be a common thread with believers, any failure has to be on the part of the person who shows a problem, rather than with you or the religion.)

Were my concerns not clear enough? I basically went Martin Luther on everyone and posted my challenges in itemized, detailed, and coherent format. That's ok, you don't have interest in dealing with them, and I don't fault you for that, you're not the first one to turn a cheek to them and I know you won't be the last. 

You volunteered a response to my challenges and couldn't deliver. But, instead of looking at your own beliefs and why they come up short to the crucible of logical questions, you assert that the problem is me, just like every other believer has done. 

I may be the problem with my own faith, but, as I've said many times, I'd rather be an honest skeptic than a false disciple. 

God may bless me, but how would I ever know since He is apparently unwilling to communicate directly with me?

I have peace because I don't have all the answers, and I realize that, but I also stop short of saying that my incomplete theses are "truths" or "proof" of anything to anyone outside of my own little world.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> God may bless me, but how would I ever know since He is apparently unwilling to communicate directly with me?



If it makes you feel any better, He's unwilling to communicate directly with me, too.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> If it makes you feel any better, He's unwilling to communicate directly with me, too.



No, it doesn't make me feel any better, but it raises obvious questions.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> If it makes you feel any better, He's unwilling to communicate directly with me, too.



Why do you think God no longer communicates with man as He did throughout the Bible? 

Do you think God has changed?

Could it be that no one today is nearly righteous enough to communicate directly with God?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Why do you think God no longer communicates with man as He did throughout the Bible?
> 
> Do you think God has changed?
> 
> Could it be that no one today is nearly righteous enough to communicate directly with God?



VERY good questions... IMO for the believer as well (which I understand you are). But I feel like if I asked any of my old pastors that question I'd get an answer like, "Just trust in God. His ways are not our ways." Or maybe even a slight reprimand for questioning...


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

Why do you think God no longer communicates with man as He did throughout the Bible?  God communicates with man today just as He did in the Bible -- through other men.   

Do you think God has changed?  No.

Could it be that no one today is nearly righteous enough to communicate directly with God?  Well, I'm not righteous enough, but I don't want to speak for all of humanity.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> VERY good questions... IMO for the believer as well (which I understand you are). But I feel like if I asked any of my old pastors that question I'd get an answer like, "Just trust in God. His ways are not our ways." Or maybe even a slight reprimand for questioning...



Many Christians offer well-prepared theories of how miracles and direct communication is no longer needed since the Bible has been written.  That theory rests upon the premise that since we now have God's word in writing, there is no one who questions the validity of Christianity.  The existence of the Bible has settled the issue for good.  No one today would even think of asking for a miracle to validate the message from God.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Why do you think God no longer communicates with man as He did throughout the Bible?  God communicates with man today just as He did in the Bible -- through other men.
> 
> Do you think God has changed?  No.
> 
> Could it be that no one today is nearly righteous enough to communicate directly with God?  Well, I'm not righteous enough, but I don't want to speak for all of humanity.



What other men did God communicate through when He talked with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, etc.?


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> What other men did God communicate through when He talked with Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Aaron, etc.?



Adam -- the first man

Noah -- the only righteous man

Abraham -- the father of His chosen people

Moses -- the deliverer of His chosen people

Aaron -- brother of the deliverer and head of the Aaronic priesthood


You're taking these special cases and making them out to be normative.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Adam -- the first man
> 
> Noah -- the only righteous man
> 
> ...


So there are elite humans in Christianity?

So not all of us were created equally in His image?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 12, 2013)

I don't that anyone is saying it was the norm... Just that it happened.. and plenty of people ask for it now... but it never happens.



centerpin fan said:


> Adam -- the first man
> 
> Noah -- the only righteous man
> 
> ...


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Why do you think God no longer communicates with man as He did throughout the Bible?  God communicates with man today just as He did in the Bible -- through other men.
> [/COLOR]



Like who? Lets start to get into specifics here.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So there are elite humans in Christianity?
> 
> So not all of us were created equally in His image?



All soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors are equal but not everybody is a Medal of Honor recipient.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Like who?



The successors of the apostles.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Adam -- the first man
> 
> Noah -- the only righteous man
> 
> ...



So who are the special cases today that are getting all of God's attention?


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't that anyone is saying it was the norm... Just that it happened.. and plenty of people ask for it now... but it never happens.



A wise man once said, "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need."


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The successors of the apostles.



You forgot the specifics part.
All these answers from you have not a shred of validity. You are shooting from the hip with answers that make it sound good in your mind but they have zero credibility or actual fact behind them.
Just once I'd love to see someone with all these answers back them up.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The successors of the apostles.



How about the pope?

Does God at least speak directly to the pope?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> A wise man once said, "You can't always get what you want, but sometimes you get what you need."



Finally one thing you have said that is verifiable........but that is because it has nothing to do with God or the Bible.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> All these answers from you have not a shred of validity. You are shooting from the hip with answers that make it sound good in your mind but they have zero credibility or actual fact behind them.



Some days I just phone it in.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> All soldiers, marines, airmen, and sailors are equal but not everybody is a Medal of Honor recipient.



No, they aren't equal, and that is one of the medals that proves it. 

I don't know where you tried to pull that from, but it's just not true. 

My service was just as important, but not as sacrificial as someone who did something to win that honor, and it would be a disgrace both to myself, and them, to claim otherwise.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How about the pope?
> 
> Does God at least speak directly to the pope?



I don't think the pope makes that claim.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No, they aren't equal, and that is one of the medals that proves it.
> 
> I don't know where you tried to pull that from, but it's just not true.



I disagree.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think the pope makes that claim.



Vicar of Christ? That doesn't imply communication to you?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think the pope makes that claim.



I'm not asking the pope, I'm asking the person who stated that God still speaks to people today just as He did throughout the Bible.  If God spoke to Aaron and his descendants as priests, then why would He not speak to the leader of the Catholic Church?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think the pope makes that claim.



Who does make that claim AND can/has proved it?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Some days I just phone it in.



Way to back it up


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I disagree.



So a Marine playing CoD, but doing his job in his comm shelter, is equal to another Marine who jumps on a grenade, or storms a machine gun nest, and gets killed in the process? 

We're going to disagree on this one, and probably about what valor and honor mean, too, then.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Vicar of Christ? That doesn't imply communication to you?



Not according to this:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not asking the pope, I'm asking the person who stated that God still speaks to people today just as He did throughout the Bible.



I don't think we're talking about the same thing.  You're saying the "burning bush scenario" is normative, and I'm saying it's not.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So a Marine playing CoD, but doing his job in his comm shelter, is equal to another Marine who jumps on a grenade, or storms a machine gun nest, and gets killed in the process?



You're confusing actions with essence.  Both Marines are of the same essence, but one's actions exceed the other's.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Who does make that claim AND can/has proved it?



What would you accept as proof?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Not according to this:
> 
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15403b.htm



Beg to differ.
Matthew 16


> 15 Jesus said to them, And what of you? Who do you say that I am?  16 Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.[2]  17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, *it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee.*



Father in heaven revealed to thee. There's communication there.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You're confusing actions with essence.  Both Marines are of the same essence, but one's actions exceed the other's.



That stems directly from my belief that nothing matters but our actions on this earth. The ripple effect of our lives is the only meaning I can see in our lives.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> What would you accept as proof?



Try me, what do have?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think we're talking about the same thing.  You're saying the "burning bush scenario" is normative, and I'm saying it's not.



I never intended to insinuate that God spoke directly to most folks.  In the Bible, when God found a righteous man He would communicate a message through that righteous man for the people of that time.  It was often a message to the wicked masses to repent and return to God or a punishment would soon follow.

Do you think we don't have a "wicked people" problem these days, or do you think we have a lack of a righteous person for God to talk to, or do you think that God has lost interest in mankind?


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Beg to differ.
> Matthew 16
> 
> 
> Father in heaven revealed to thee. There's communication there.



... and that's in the Bible.  HJ is asking about communication _today_.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... and that's in the Bible.  HJ is asking about communication _today_.



And I'm saying that God revealed his son directly to someone. Your only retort is to say that this person was one of the elite, which are apparently the only ones worthy of communication. 

In other words it seems like you're grasping at straws in order to defend why God isn't talking these days. 

Can you find us a quote where it says that ONLY righteous people will hear, or be communicated to? 

If you can't it's just speculation on your part and rationalization to avoid an inconvenient and obvious truth.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you think we don't have a "wicked people" problem these days, or do you think we have a lack of a righteous person for God to talk to, or do you think that God has lost interest in mankind?



"None of the above."

It's certainly not a lack of wicked people.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

"Hi, you've reached God, I'm not home right now, but if you'd please leave a message I'll call you back (if I deem you worthy.)"

I think I just found my new voicemail outbound message.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And I'm saying that God revealed his son directly to someone. Your only retort is to say that this person was one of the elite ...



1.  That's not what I said.

2.  God often chose people with obvious flaws.  Moses and David are the first two who come to mind.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Try me, what do have?



Nothing you would accept.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "None of the above."
> 
> It's certainly not a lack of wicked people.



I have no problem with the belief that God only speaks directly to the truly righteous.  Even though there are examples of God speaking to those less than righteous in the Bible.

The question is:
Does God still speak directly to anyone today (not everyone or even more than a few), anyone, even if it's just the pope?

If not, why do you think that is?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> 1.  That's not what I said.
> 
> 2.  God often chose people with obvious flaws.  Moses and David are the first two who come to mind.



Your earlier post suggested that he only communicated to people that served a purpose to his plan, I did take it one further and say that they were elite because of that. So you didn't say the word elite, but we are talking about your same post. 

God only communicates with you if you're important to him and flaws don't count then, but apparently do if you're a layperson he doesn't need to do anything special. 

It also turns out that my post from Matthew fed this notion, since Simon son of Jona is Saint Peter. I didn't know that. 

Still, where's proof of God communicating to a guy on the street that he doesn't need anything in particular from?


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> "Hi, you've reached God, I'm not home right now, but if you'd please leave a message I'll call you back (if I deem you worthy.)"
> 
> I think I just found my new voicemail outbound message.




Go with this one:


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Nothing you would accept.



Then it's obviously not proof. 

See definition above. 

I love, I truly do love, how many believers claim to have "proof" then shy away from the challenge when called out. 

Still, I'd also love for just one to put up rather than shut up. 

My language isn't the nicest, here, but I'm not trying to fight with you, rather I was actually hoping you'd post it so we could subject it to the scientific method. If it's real proof then it's going to get through.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Go with this one:



No thanks, never cared for Seinfeld.


----------



## Bobby Jackson (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> "Hi, you've reached God, I'm not home right now, but if you'd please leave a message I'll call you back (if I deem you worthy.)"
> 
> I think I just found my new voicemail outbound message.



Funniest thing I have read on the internet in a while....thanx..I needed a good laugh!!


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> My language isn't the nicest, here, but I'm not trying to fight with you, rather I was actually hoping you'd post it so we could subject it to the scientific method.



We're not talking about gravity or the temperature at which water boils.  We're talking history.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No thanks, never cared for Seinfeld.



Sacrilege!


----------



## 660griz (Nov 12, 2013)

We can put this to rest. God is still talking. 

PHOENIX (CBS5) - A man, who stabbed his mother to death and told authorities that God had told him to do it, is being arraigned on murder charges.


----------



## Bobby Jackson (Nov 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> He told authorities that God had told him to do it, is being arraigned on murder charges.



"And the accused also added that anyone who didn't believe him or in God was a Idiot"..and "Should die/be killed"





Yep..there we go Proof


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> We're not talking about gravity or the temperature at which water boils.  We're talking history.



No we're not. History is that there was a man called Jesus who lived in Nazareth, many sources confirm this. Anything further exists no where but the Bible. That's single sourced and doesn't pass the sniff test. 

I'm also not the one who holds it as a truth that God and Jesus exist in deity form, and that the Bible is the right book of religion, morality, ethics, etc. That's you guys, and all we're asking you to do is to treat it with the same exacting precision that you demand from other things classified as truths here on da erf. The end of the thought process is that religion and faith break down very early on in the quest to prove them as factual and that's why it's faith, and not logic. 

We can end all of this right now if you start a grass roots movement amongst the faithful to stop using words like truth, proof, evidence, and the like. That is unless the faithful are willing to subject their "truths" and such to a little skeptical investigation. If they're true then they'll pass every time, just like gravity, or pure water at sea level always boiling at 212F.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Sacrilege!



It's a motif of mine.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Nothing you would accept.



Centerpin, it has got to be nothing worthwhile if you won't even try. At least your honest in that regard. At some point you have to realize that the answers you give in here require a bit more behind them because of the skeptical people in here. Your answers are fine for a few floors up when you are in the company of like minded people but in here you know who you are dealing with so why do you think that we are just going to take your word for it? Those are the answers...or lack of...that drove many us from religion.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Your answers are fine for a few floors up when you are in the company of like minded people but in here you know who you are dealing with ...



Yes, I do ... which explains this:



bullethead said:


> Centerpin, it has got to be nothing worthwhile if you won't even try.



For most of you guys, it's gonna take a "burning bush" moment to convince you.  I certainly can't provide that, and I'm not positive that it will work, anyway.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, I do ... which explains this:
> 
> 
> 
> For most of you guys, it's gonna take a "burning bush" moment to convince you.  I certainly can't provide that, and I'm not positive that it will work, anyway.



A burning bush would certainly do it for me.  Or a talking donkey.  

That's all I would need.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 12, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> A burning bush would certainly do it for me.  Or a talking donkey.



How about a burning donkey?  I think I could swing that.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 12, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> A burning bush would certainly do it for me.  Or a talking donkey.
> 
> That's all I would need.



I burned a bush the other day in my fire pit... Didn't help...


----------



## bullethead (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, I do ... which explains this:
> 
> 
> 
> For most of you guys, it's gonna take a "burning bush" moment to convince you.  I certainly can't provide that, and I'm not positive that it will work, anyway.



All that reply does is reinforce what I have been saying. You know what we require and you cannot provide it. All that has been established already.
If you or your God have anything better please share it. If your God is who you say he is He/She/It knows EXACTLY what I/we/anyone needs to convince us. A feeling so overwhelming that it is undeniable would do it for me. Talking burning bush, Talking Donkey or some appearance from an Angel (since no one looks at the big guy) might do it. I am not saying I wouldn't have a few questions for them, but such an experience would be more believable than a few guys on the internet giving their opinion without a single shred of evidence or fact to help their claim. Just 'sayin.....


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> How about a burning donkey?  I think I could swing that.



Only if it talks.  Smarty pants.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> All that reply does is reinforce what I have been saying. You know what we require and you cannot provide it. All that has been established already.
> If you or your God have anything better please share it. If your God is who you say he is He/She/It knows EXACTLY what I/we/anyone needs to convince us. A feeling so overwhelming that it is undeniable would do it for me. Talking burning bush, Talking Donkey or some appearance from an Angel (since no one looks at the big guy) might do it. I am not saying I wouldn't have a few questions for them, but such an experience would be more believable than a few guys on the internet giving their opinion without a single shred of evidence or fact to help their claim. Just 'sayin.....




What if someone said it made them stop drinking while watching hamster porn?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I have no problem with the belief that God only speaks directly to the truly righteous.  Even though there are examples of God speaking to those less than righteous in the Bible.
> 
> The question is:
> Does God still speak directly to anyone today (not everyone or even more than a few), anyone, even if it's just the pope?
> ...



Again.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 13, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> You said:
> I won't fault you, but this is what I expected. I don't have the page open right now, since I'm typing, but if I remember correctly you claimed to have proof. That, my friend, is the definition of the word proof. If that's not what you have, then you, by definition, do not have proof. I can't tell you what you do have, but I can tell you it's not proof, by your own admissions.
> 
> What did you mean by That?
> Please be specific (cut and past from this thread).



That was the text that I copied and pasted, then highlighted, from dictionary.com for the definition of  the word proof. 

Even though I highlighted a section it is still THE definition of the word. If that's not what you had then we can get into discussions, once you share it, about what it _actually_ is categorized as but it can't be proof, by definition, if it doesn't comply with the text from the dictionary. 

I don't need to copy and paste from this thread to do any of that. 

1) Go to google.com
2) type "proof definition"
3) Look for and select the result that is from dictionary.com, or Merriam-Webster, or whatever other dictionaries there are. 

The definition, not to be confused with connotation, of such a simple word should be fairly universal.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 13, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What if someone said it made them stop drinking while watching hamster porn?



Impossible


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Impossible



That's why it would be a sho' 'nuff documented miracle.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> If you or your God have anything better please share it. If your God is who you say he is He/She/It knows EXACTLY what I/we/anyone needs to convince us. A feeling so overwhelming that it is undeniable would do it for me. Talking burning bush, Talking Donkey or some appearance from an Angel (since no one looks at the big guy) might do it. I am not saying I wouldn't have a few questions for them, but such an experience would be more believable than a few guys on the internet giving their opinion without a single shred of evidence or fact to help their claim. Just 'sayin.....



Luke 16:

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


----------



## bullethead (Nov 13, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> That's why it would be a sho' 'nuff documented miracle.



Not sure if it is the squeaking of the wheel or the squeaking of the hamsters but it is impossible to get those hamsters to stop the drinking while that is going on. 
I think it helps them cope. Every time I have seen an inebriated hamster it always has had something to do with being in the "industry" and every time I am told their prayers to get them out of the business have gone unanswered. It is near epidemic proportions and so rampant that only an act of God could change things. Maybe, just maybe there is a miracle in the works to provide some hope for these poor, drunk and worn out hamsters.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The question is:
> Does God still speak directly to anyone today (not everyone or even more than a few), anyone, even if it's just the pope?



There's nothing in scripture to indicate that He does, but there is scripture to support what I've been saying all along:

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.  Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”  -- Matthew 28: 16-20


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Luke 16:
> 
> 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
> 
> ...



I asked if YOU have something or if God has something, not the writings of humans and whay they want their God so say.
Again, you know what is needed and cannot provide.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Luke 16:
> 
> 19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
> 
> ...



So why give anyone since then any other signs? 

So why, if Moses died in 1272BC, did people get to witness the miracles of Jesus, loaves and fishes, walking on water, etc., oh and Jesus RISING FROM THE DEAD? 

I hear doublespeak approaching, and in the quoted text.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I asked if YOU have something or if God has something, not the writings of humans and whay they want their God so say.
> Again, you know what is needed and cannot provide.



As I noted:



> ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’.


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## 660griz (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.



au contraire

I think that would do it.


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> As I noted:



Sorry, your "noted" might as well be from a Marvel comic book. It does not mean a thing to me. If that is all you have got it is ineffective at proving anything to someone that does not follow it.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Sorry, your "noted" might as well be from a Marvel comic book.



Note to self:  reserve all references to Jesus, Paul and Wolverine for the forums above.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 13, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> I simply can't tell whether you still have not read what I posted or if you refuse to acknowledge it.
> 
> And I still don't know which definition of truth you're applying. I've given you the knowledge to obtain an actual definition, not connotation since those are subjective, of the word and the space to utilize it.
> 
> ...



There is a path to a positive outcome. If you believe there to be proof of God, post it here and let it stand on its merits. If it passes you will be the one who brought sheep to the flock. If it fails then you can still choose to believe it, but you will know that you're doing so in contravention of linear and deductive logic, and suspending same in acceptance thereof. There's nothing wrong with it, I won't even ask you to admit any of it. I will ask you to not claim to have proof when you have none, and then engage in endless semantic debates that have no basis other than to distract from the source. You don't have to comply, by no means necessary, I'll just know what to expect in the future. 

You're not the first one to do this at any time that I've ever tried to discuss this with anyone. We go tangential into defining what they believe, again key word believe, the definition of evidence and proof are to be. As soon as I break out the English dictionary, a book we all agreed with up unto this point, they get all wishy washy about it because it is nailing their belief to the wall and letting it stand on its own. 

I keep hoping that, if I keep questioning those like you, one day someone will nail something substantive to the wall that I have no choice but to accept. If you're right about faith, then God made me this way, and I would think he wants me to be true to my nature and challenge his faithful in the hopes of finding my own faith. 

Bow out if you wish.


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## bullethead (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Note to self:  reserve all references to Jesus, Paul and Wolverine for the forums above.



There are proper places for those references, this ain't one of 'em...."bub".


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 13, 2013)

pre·dict·a·bil·i·ty
 [pri-dik-tuh-bil-i-tee]  Show IPA  

noun  
1. 
consistent repetition of a state, course of action, behavior, or the like, making it possible to know in advance what to expect: The predictability of their daily lives was both comforting and boring.  

2. 
the quality of being regarded as likely to happen, as behavior or an event: We were disheartened by the utter predictability of war.


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 13, 2013)

660griz said:


> au contraire
> 
> I think that would do it.



Not really.. Because there are reasons that people rise from the "dead" now that are explainable. People have stories of dieing, seeing their god and coming back... Coming back because there were EMTs and doctors working on them trying to bring them back. It's not a miracle just to rise from the dead any more. People go in to comas and seem lifeless for periods of time and come back. The proof of a miracle would be in the details...


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not really.. Because there are reasons that people rise from the "dead" now that are explainable. People have stories of dieing, seeing their god and coming back... Coming back because there were EMTs and doctors working on them trying to bring them back. It's not a miracle just to rise from the dead any more. People go in to comas and seem lifeless for periods of time and come back. The proof of a miracle would be in the details...




Three days dead, confirmed by physicians and documented in film, and then resurrected would be enough proof for me.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 13, 2013)

I died for a few moments, when I had my cancer surgery, according to the docs. 

I didn't have any experience. 

Maybe I'm condemned to Limbo as a result of my skepticism.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There's nothing in scripture to indicate that He does,



There wouldn't necessarily have to be something in scripture to indicate that God would speak to someone today.  God speaking to man is what formed most scripture that we have.  God delivering a message to man today would practically be the foundation for new scripture.  

Like I said earlier, God found a righteous man and told him to deliver a message to the wicked or back-slider to repent or punishment was coming.  This happened many times throughout the Bible.  

Why would that situation no longer exist today?


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## 660griz (Nov 13, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not really.. Because there are reasons that people rise from the "dead" now that are explainable. People have stories of dieing, seeing their god and coming back... Coming back because there were EMTs and doctors working on them trying to bring them back. It's not a miracle just to rise from the dead any more. People go in to comas and seem lifeless for periods of time and come back. The proof of a miracle would be in the details...



All true. I just got lazy and didn't want to go through the evidence of truly 'dead'. Let's say, they are embalmed already. That would do it.


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 13, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Three days dead, confirmed by physicians and documented in film, and then resurrected would be enough proof for me.



Agreed... Details. Still though... The person themselves or some god would have to claim who did it as well, wouldn't they?


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## jay sullivent (Nov 13, 2013)

Its been a long time since I've spent any time on this forum
and I see y'all have made a whole new category in my honor!
oh how I miss butting heads with you guys in the spiritual section!
I do love you guys though!


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## centerpin fan (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There wouldn't necessarily have to be something in scripture to indicate that God would speak to someone today.  God speaking to man is what formed most scripture that we have.  God delivering a message to man today would practically be the foundation for new scripture.



Exactly, which is why it won't happen.  The Christian faith was "once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3.)  Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished."  He has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He gave the disciples their marching orders in the Great Commission.


Now, as an added bonus, here's a little something for the non-believers among us:


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Exactly, which is why it won't happen.  The Christian faith was "once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3.)  Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished."  He has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He gave the disciples their marching orders in the Great Commission.
> 
> 
> Now, as an added bonus, here's a little something for the non-believers among us:


You're always giving. I like that about you.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Exactly, which is why it won't happen.  The Christian faith was "once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3.)  Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished."  He has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He gave the disciples their marching orders in the Great Commission.
> 
> 
> Now, as an added bonus, here's a little something for the non-believers among us:



Do you realize how many times it is stated in the Old Testament that Mosaic Law is permanent, for all future generations, etc.  I counted it once.  I don't have that in front of me right now but I think it was stated 32 times.  That seemed to be settled once and for all...   Until it wasn't.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you realize how many times it is stated in the Old Testament that Mosaic Law is permanent, for all future generations, etc.  I counted it once.  I don't have that in front of me right now but I think it was stated 32 times.  That seemed to be settled once and for all...   Until it wasn't.



Galatians 3 is your friend.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Galatians 3 is your friend.



I'm not saying that it didn't change.  I'm just saying that the Old Testament presented it as being permanent.  If you just read the Old Testament you will not see the groundwork laid for Mosaic Law to be viewed as temporary or subject to change.

The New Testament is written similarly, with no indication that it may be changed in the future, but it happened before, so...


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 13, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Exactly, which is why it won't happen.  The Christian faith was "once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3.)  Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished."  He has ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.  He gave the disciples their marching orders in the Great Commission.



That means that those of us who would like that kind of evidence for us to base our own faith on... Are just outta luck.... Unfortunately for us, because we were born 2000 years late, I don't get the same benefit that they did.... rats.... To he11 with me...


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## stringmusic (Nov 13, 2013)

Just stopping by for my daily laugh.....


centerpin fan said:


> How about a burning donkey?  I think I could swing that.






Thanks CPF!


----------



## bullethead (Nov 13, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Just stopping by for my daily laugh.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And now we got ours. Thanks string!


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> All that reply does is reinforce what I have been saying. You know what we require and you cannot provide it. All that has been established already.
> If you or your God have anything better please share it. If your God is who you say he is He/She/It knows EXACTLY what I/we/anyone needs to convince us. A feeling so overwhelming that it is undeniable would do it for me. Talking burning bush, Talking Donkey or some appearance from an Angel (since no one looks at the big guy) might do it. I am not saying I wouldn't have a few questions for them, but such an experience would be more believable than a few guys on the internet giving their opinion without a single shred of evidence or fact to help their claim. Just 'sayin.....



hubris


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 13, 2013)

660griz said:


> au contraire
> 
> I think that would do it.



Undoubtedly it hasn't.


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## SemperFiDawg (Nov 13, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I keep hoping that, if I keep questioning those like you, one day someone will nail something substantive to the wall that I have no choice but to accept.



No you don't.  That is exactly what you hope doesn't happen, but don't worry my friend.  You will get your wish one day, and I'm truly sorry for you.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No you don't.  That is exactly what you hope doesn't happen, but don't worry my friend.  You will get your wish one day, and I'm truly sorry for you.



If someone can do it then it doesn't matter if we want it to or not.. It will be undeniable and we will have to accept it.  Because reality is what we base our whole lives on.


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## 660griz (Nov 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Undoubtedly it hasn't.



 Did I miss something?


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## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> hubris



Touch of hubris or not it doesn't change anything in that post. Don't think your not a card carrying member of being a little too prideful and a touch arrogant as you post on here with a puffed chest as to how special you are that you have an invisible friend and all it does for you.
Hello Pot, my name is Kettle.


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## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No you don't.  That is exactly what you hope doesn't happen, but don't worry my friend.  You will get your wish one day, and I'm truly sorry for you.



hubris

see how easy that is to say in here SFD?


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No you don't.  That is exactly what you hope doesn't happen, but don't worry my friend.  You will get your wish one day, and I'm truly sorry for you.



I can't say what I want to, here. 

You don't know me, and you never fully will. 

What was that word you posted? Oh right, HUBRIS. 

I feel sorry for you, you're the one who has bought into something without fully understanding it, and a penchant for ignorance in regards to questioning it. 

At least my eyes and mind are open. 

Congratulations, you're my first use of the ignore function on this board.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> hubris
> 
> see how easy that is to say in here SFD?



Can you believe the arrogance of him to believe that he knows me, or what I think, because of a few posts on an internet board? 

I thought Christians were supposed to be non-judgmental and compassionate. 

Maybe he's not, or everyone else isn't, a true Christian, depending on which side of the coin is correct.


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## Bobby Jackson (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I thought Christians were supposed to be non-judgmental and compassionate.



HaHaHaaa...wait,were you serious?


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Can you believe the arrogance of him to believe that he knows me, or what I think, because of a few posts on an internet board?
> 
> I thought Christians were supposed to be non-judgmental and compassionate.
> 
> Maybe he's not, or everyone else isn't, a true Christian, depending on which side of the coin is correct.





Bobby Jackson said:


> HaHaHaaa...wait,were you serious?



He is compassionate.  He feels sorry for us that we're gonna BURN IN HE11!!!!!!!!!!!!! MUAH HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

Bobby Jackson said:


> HaHaHaaa...wait,were you serious?



Yeah, I actually was serious. It wasn't rhetorical and it wasn't snide. 

I thought some of the modern tenets, not the OT, of Christianity was compassion, understanding, etc. 

Also, I try to let people rest on their own merits than represent the whole, that's why I said the part about him not being a true believer, and from his perspective others not being true, as a result of either condemning me for my skepticism or not.


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

This thread is silly and pointless


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> This thread is silly and pointless



So don't participate. Problem solved.


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

Me not participating doesn't make the thread less silly and pointless your not gonna change anyones beliefs

I've been an atheist most my life
I had something horrible happen to me snd people I love recently and found myself praying to god
Many of my prayers were answered
by god? Coincidence?
Who knows


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Me not participating doesn't make the thread less silly and pointless your not gonna change anyones beliefs
> 
> I've been an atheist most my life
> I had something horrible happen to me snd people I love recently and found myself praying to god
> ...



I'm not trying to change theirs. I'm trying to change mine. Despite what some others have said today. 

I hold myself to be an agnostic, rather than atheist. 

I just don't know, either way, what's out there or isn't. But I do know that I won't be able to accept it until it's tested, every other possibility ruled out, and held up to be none other than the doing of a deity. 

My worldview will change then, but I won't rush to embrace Christianity more than I would Buddhism, or Polytheism, without evidence on that matter.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

As far as the thread being silly and pointless, it's my thread so it can be whatever I want it to be, within the general guidelines of the boards, which it is. 

We haven't gone off topic, and it's been pretty mature in here, with a few exceptions, so unless the admins tell me differently then the thread keeps going.


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

The arguing over religion is silly to me
It might take a tragedy or some type of lifechangining
Event that will cause you to reach out to a higher
Power
It will be personal to you and never tested


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> The arguing over religion is silly to me
> It might take a tragedy or some type of lifechangining
> Event that will cause you to reach out to a higher
> Power
> It will be personal to you and never tested



I've experienced plenty of tragedy and 0 revelation. 

I've survived cancer, watched family members die of cancer. 

I've lost my children to my ex wife because her family had deeper pockets than I, and heard of them being threatened to be killed if she left he second husband. I've heard of her being choked against a wall while they watched, at the same time he threatened them with the same if they spoke out about it. 

I lost my house because of that, my car, my personality and almost my sanity. 

I've sat in closets in tears nearly deciding to end it before realizing that there wasn't a structure in there that could hold my 250lb frame, and not the money to buy bullet or gun, while choosing against drowning or any other method due to the possibility of messing it up and having to explain myself to family members. 

I've had those same family members turn their backs on me in order to stay in good graces with my ex so they could stay in contact with my children. 

I've seen good people shredded by IED's and ESP's in both Iraq and Afghanistan. 

I've seen firsthand the atrocities of modern war, things that would shock you and chill you to the core. 

In all of that I have not once felt the hand of any deity pick me back up, or whisper in my ear to stand on my own feet again, but rather heard deafening silence. 

If I can live through all of that and hear nothing then what else is in store for me so that I can experience enough suffering in order to believe? And what's the point of it all if this God truly loves me?


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

Sounds like you are due some fortune in your life
Maybe some well overdue blessings will be your life changing event


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> The arguing over religion is silly to me
> It might take a tragedy or some type of lifechangining
> Event that will cause you to reach out to a higher
> Power
> It will be personal to you and never tested



This subforum is for Apologetics.  

I would be satisfied if all the believers that come here admit what you have admitted: that the experience is personal and that they really have nothing that would hold up as PROOF in a court of law.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I've experienced plenty of tragedy and 0 revelation.
> 
> I've survived cancer, watched family members die of cancer.
> 
> ...



There's no one at the helm.  We're all alone together.  Keep your head high and lean on your brothers when you find them.  We're all we've got.

Ultimately, you're all you've got.


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

Also striper hunter
Read my post again
To cause YOU TO REACH OUT


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Sounds like you are due some fortune in your life
> Maybe some well overdue blessings will be your life changing event



Not long after all of that I met my current wife and I couldn't be happier. Still, it didn't feel like the work of a deity that she got tired of her old hometown and moved out here, after 30 years there.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Also striper hunter
> Read my post again
> To cause YOU TO REACH OUT



Believe me I reached. In those times I cried in my own hands and begged, literally begged, to be proven wrong and that there was a God and a plan that this all fit in to. 

It's impossible for you to know just what I went through and what I did, but I did beg.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> There's no one at the helm.  We're all alone together.  Keep your head high and lean on your brothers when you find them.  We're all we've got.
> 
> Ultimately, you're all you've got.



I believe we have more than our singular selves. We do have those around us, family and friends, and there might be something more out there, but that's unknown. 

I lean on those close to me as often as I can.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> The arguing over religion is silly to me
> It might take a tragedy or some type of lifechangining
> Event that will cause you to reach out to a higher
> Power
> It will be personal to you and never tested



An atheist cannot reach out to a higher power. I, alone, handle any personal tragedies in my life. Defecation occurs. 

You know the saying, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Plus, just worry about things one can control.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 14, 2013)

660griz said:


> An atheist cannot reach out to a higher power. I, alone, handle any personal tragedies in my life. Defication occurs.
> 
> You know the saying, "What doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Plus, just worry about things one can control.



Is that the word you meant to use?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Is that the word you meant to use?



Probably meant feces, but that's funny so I, at least, like it. 

Everybody poohs.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Sounds like you are due some fortune in your life
> Maybe some well overdue blessings will be your life changing event



Well overdue? Did god mess up? Was he too busy?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Well overdue? Did god mess up? Was he too busy?



I would suspect that my suffering were to serve a purpose, according to the faithful. 

I can't answer for what God's purpose would have been, but my takeaways were clear, and I formulated them by myself with nothing but logic, about the implications to my character, my decisions, and my forward path in life. 

Likewise the suffering of my children for a purpose. I don't understand, no matter how many times someone says it, the need for a child to suffer in order to produce a result later. With unlimited power, as one would expect from a deity, and the capacity to know them before they're even born, I would think that I could imbue them with that drive without the need for suffering. If he can imbue Tiger with his chip shot, or MJ with his ups, or anyone else on the planet with any other innate talent and drive, then there seems to be no purpose to the suffering, other than to have some use it as a rationalization for why bad things happen.


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

What is a diety?
I don't know if begging to be proven wrong counts
I don't doubt you've been through a lot
You survived though
You chose to live
You can't comepletely count out the possibility of a higher power
I know I don't know
That's sll I know
I have theories though
I wish I could share my lifechanging event
But its too public right now


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## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Sounds like you are due some fortune in your life
> Maybe some well overdue blessings will be your life changing event




" Deserving's got nothing to do with it."

                                              --William Munny


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't believe everything is planned or for a reason


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't think deserving has snything to do with it but nature usually evens thing out in the long run


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> I don't think deserving has snything to do with it but nature usually evens thing out in the long run



Here's a new one... Yet another view on the big man... Another interpretation of the inspired word of god... Interpreted how it makes the reader feel best about it..


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm not a christian by the way
and I hate when people try to preach religion to me


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## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

I don't read the bible either
I'm more of a non fiction guy


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> I don't believe everything is planned or for a reason





jay sullivent said:


> I don't think deserving has snything to do with it but nature usually evens thing out in the long run




Sound to me like you've got a long road ahead of you to figure what you believe in.  

Don't just jump on the first thing that "feels" good.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> What is a diety?
> 
> The term I use in lieu of using the hot word of God. Deity is universal, God isn't.
> 
> ...



Thanks.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> I don't think deserving has snything to do with it but nature usually evens thing out in the long run



That's what I call The Balance. No deity, no belief, just an observation. Things are generally neutral, with some really good days and some really bad days, too.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> I don't believe everything is planned or for a reason



Fair point and I hope you don't think I was trying to paint you with that brush, merely express what I've been told before. 



jay sullivent said:


> I'm not a christian by the way
> and I hate when people try to preach religion to me



Interesting then that you're seemingly on the other side of this discussion. I always like someone willing to play Devil's Advocate, though. 

That does bring up the question, what do you believe? I'd hate to be operating under the wrong assumption based on your posts. 



jay sullivent said:


> I don't read the bible either
> I'm more of a non fiction guy



See above about beliefs.


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm an athiest or agnostic
but I believe we have some type of "soul" and something here's our thoughts and prayers


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> I'm an athiest or agnostic
> but I believe we have some type of "soul" and something here's our thoughts and prayers



So one step closer to a believer than I am, and solely, no pun intended, related to the thoughts and prayers. 

I don't think anyone is home, or paying attention to the callers, anyway. 

I believe that we have a "soul" in the sense that our life energy, because we are more than just meat in my eyes, goes somewhere, most likely back into the system it came from, not that much different than the Star Wars movies say in becoming one with the Force. Now, that's not to say that I'm some crazy guy who thinks he's a Jedi, but that they describe it as a universal energy that everything is made up of. I don't think that energy has a will, per se, but that it exists in a neutral state completely disconnected from our experiences.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So one step closer to a believer than I am, and solely, no pun intended, related to the thoughts and prayers.
> 
> I don't think anyone is home, or paying attention to the callers, anyway.
> 
> I believe that we have a "soul" in the sense that our life energy, because we are more than just meat in my eyes, goes somewhere, most likely back into the system it came from, not that much different than the Star Wars movies say in becoming one with the Force. Now, that's not to say that I'm some crazy guy who thinks he's a Jedi, but that they describe it as a universal energy that everything is made up of. I don't think that energy has a will, per se, but that it exists in a neutral state completely disconnected from our experiences.



What's your basis for believing in a soul?  Did it pass the crucible test or is it just a working theory?


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

Maybe prayer is like the plocebo affect


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> maybe prayer is like the plocebo affect



100%


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

Then I wss right
someone is listening
Me!


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Me not participating doesn't make the thread less silly and pointless your not gonna change anyones beliefs
> 
> I've been an atheist most my life
> I had something horrible happen to me snd people I love recently and found myself praying to god
> ...



So why YOU? What would be your reason(s) for some sort of God answering your prayer(s) and ignoring the tens of thousands of other prayers that were asked in that same amount of time?
Is there any way the outcome was 50/50 before the prayers, or say you had prayed to a rock in your yard...could the outcome have ended up the exact same way?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> The arguing over religion is silly to me
> It might take a tragedy or some type of lifechangining
> Event that will cause you to reach out to a higher
> Power
> It will be personal to you and never tested



Is it possible that such a tragedy or life changing event could possibly cause someone to deny a higher power?


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So why YOU? What would be your reason(s) for some sort of God answering your prayer(s) and ignoring the tens of thousands of other prayers that were asked in that same amount of time?
> Is there any way the outcome was 50/50 before the prayers, or say you had prayed to a rock in your yard...could the outcome have ended up the exact same way?



...or that he seems to answer prayers to Allah and Vishnu?  If the answer is always going to be either "Yes, No or Wait" then everyone will receive an answer, even if they pray to a rock.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Is it possible that such a tragedy or life changing event could possibly cause someone to deny a higher power?



Sometimes it causes people to say "Fine!  I'll do it myself!"


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

All good points
Placebo effect


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> All good points
> Placebo effect



It's powerful stuff sometimes.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 14, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Is that the word you meant to use?



No. Corrected.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> I'm an athiest or agnostic
> but I believe we have some type of "soul" and something here's our thoughts and prayers



I just don't understand that. What else could answer your prayers but a deity?


----------



## 660griz (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> It's powerful stuff sometimes.



Yes, the power of prayer, AND, positive thinking, placebo affects, have been proven.


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

What is a deity?


----------



## jay sullivent (Nov 14, 2013)

That sounds like a christian response
Well if things went your way god must have done it.
I don't believe a deity is the only answer


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What's your basis for believing in a soul?  Did it pass the crucible test or is it just a working theory?



That there is a measurable energy difference between a living body and a dead one that can not be attributed to anything. 

If you take a living body and sum its energy, you get X. 

If you measure the same from a dead person, literally a moment after death, you get Y. 

I attribute that to the ghost in the machine, so to speak, or what others call a soul. 

There are studies that have measured this repeatedly, and while the values vary, the fact that there is a difference does not. 

I believe there was even a guy who photographed people as they died in varying spectra and got some surprising, but anecdotal, pictures.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> Maybe prayer is like the plocebo affect



Like George Carlin said, it doesn't hurt your chances to pray. He just chooses Joe Pesci.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That there is a measurable energy difference between a living body and a dead one that can not be attributed to anything.
> 
> If you take a living body and sum its energy, you get X.
> 
> ...



The human body uses electrical impulses to create the activity for each and every part in the body. Neurons, Electrolytes etc. I do not find it any surprise that the Electricity can be measured when alive and ceases to exist and can no longer be measured when the body/brain dies.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The human body uses electrical impulses to create the activity for each and every part in the body. Neurons, Electrolytes etc. I do not find it any surprise that the Electricity can be measured when alive and ceases to exist and can no longer be measured when the body/brain dies.



I can see that, and I though it, too. The last time I read the research they took that into account, too, and it still didn't make up the difference. 

It has been a while, so maybe I misunderstood it, but I still believe that we are more than just animated meat.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

jay sullivent said:


> That sounds like a christian response
> Well if things went your way god must have done it.
> I don't believe a deity is the only answer



Chance favors the prepared mind.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That there is a measurable energy difference between a living body and a dead one that can not be attributed to anything.
> 
> If you take a living body and sum its energy, you get X.
> 
> ...





bullethead said:


> The human body uses electrical impulses to create the activity for each and every part in the body. Neurons, Electrolytes etc. I do not find it any surprise that the Electricity can be measured when alive and ceases to exist and can no longer be measured when the body/brain dies.



There is a measurable energy difference in a D cell battery when it loses its charge.  We're like a machine that just wears out.  All the heat and energy and work that went into us and we put out didn't go anywhere.  It just changed form.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I can see that, and I though it, too. The last time I read the research they took that into account, too, and it still didn't make up the difference.
> 
> It has been a while, so maybe I misunderstood it, but I still believe that we are more than just animated meat.



What difference does it make if we're just animated meat (which is a pretty cool thing in and of itself, Hocus Pocus notwithstanding)?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What difference does it make if we're just animated meat (which is a pretty cool thing in and of itself, Hocus Pocus notwithstanding)?



None to either of us. I just think the study was pretty cool and it made me "feel" like there was something more to us than can be seen/measured, and nothing further.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That there is a measurable energy difference between a living body and a dead one that can not be attributed to anything.
> 
> If you take a living body and sum its energy, you get X.
> 
> ...



In your opinion, do animals have this same "soul"?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> There is a measurable energy difference in a D cell battery when it loses its charge.  We're like a machine that just wears out.  All the heat and energy and work that went into us and we put out didn't go anywhere.  It just changed form.



The mathematics of energy conservation are very well understood. They, again, if I'm remembering correctly, measured the electrical, thermal, kinetic, and stored energy in a person immediately before and immediately after death. 

They knew how much of each would be lost over a time scale of seconds, so a lot of electricity, but not much heat, all of kinetic, but none of stored, accounted for it all and the energy loss was still greater than that math allowed for, so there must have been some other energy at work. That's all that they say about it. 

I choose to think of that as the ghost in the machine. I'm not asking anyone else to believe it or worship it, or even read about it. 

I'm fine if I'm the only person on the planet who feels that way.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> In your opinion, do animals have this same "soul"?



Some degree of one, yes. 

A dog, for example, can be empathetic and sympathetic to their owner, that's a higher degree of conscience and since we don't know where that resides in the brain I would choose to believe, but can't prove in any way, that there is reason for it to be true. 

Again, disagree and I won't mind. It's just how I feel. There's no hard evidence on the matter of animal awareness either way. Though dolphins have been known to recognize themselves in mirrors, something lesser intelligent animals can't be observed doing.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

If we "lose" 3/4 of an ounce of weight(according to Dr. MacDougall in 1907) when we die then we have to ask where this energized weight goes. If it goes to Heaven or H3ll then those places are said to be outside of our Universe, yet it is also said that all the Energy that is in the Universe, stays in the Universe and it is the same amount now as when the Big Bang happened. Losing 3/4oz of energy doesn't sound like much but when you add up every single person that has died it would guess that it is more than a little bit and somehow that loss would be felt or have an effect.
Which then leads me to wonder if this 3/4oz turns into a spirit or ghost and the energy "stays"  then the concept of Heaven or H3ll goes out the window because why are these people, especially Christians not going to either place?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 14, 2013)

IDK if my dog can recognize herself in a mirror... partly because I think they can't see 2d like that... and because she definitely doesn't realize it's her when she poots... but I do believe she's got a very similar conscience as humans have. Soul or similarly animated meat...


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> If we "lose" 3/4 of an ounce of weight(according to Dr. MacDougall in 1907) when we die then we have to ask where this energized weight goes. If it goes to Heaven or H3ll then those places are said to be outside of our Universe, yet it is also said that all the Energy that is in the Universe, stays in the Universe and it is the same amount now as when the Big Bang happened. Losing 3/4oz of energy doesn't sound like much but when you add up every single person that has died it would guess that it is more than a little bit and somehow that loss would be felt or have an effect.
> Which then leads me to wonder if this 3/4oz turns into a spirit or ghost and the energy "stays"  then the concept of Heaven or H3ll goes out the window because why are these people, especially Christians not going to either place?



And there's where I differ. I don't believe the energy leaves the system, but rejoins the rest of the loose energy in the universe, like the Force concept, where we all go back to the stream from whence we came.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 14, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> IDK if my dog can recognize herself in a mirror... partly because I think they can't see 2d like that... and because she definitely doesn't realize it's her when she poots... but I do believe she's got a very similar conscience as humans have. Soul or similarly animated meat...



Dolphins were the only ones, maybe some primates, that I heard of that recognized themselves in the mirror. Canines, felines, and the rest haven't shown any more awareness than empathy.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

It was said that some animals lose weight when dead and some do not. What does that mean? Do some animals have souls? I thought that was impossible???


But then I read this:

First off, to give you an idea of the amount of weight we are talking about: 1 fresh new dollar bill is exactly 1 gram so you can estimate that the weight loss at death described by Dr. MacDougall in 1907 is equivalent to 21 dollars in singles.

Moments before death your body temperature rises to 39.2 degrees C or 102.6 deg F. This increase is called the agonal phase of death in which there is an increase rate of metabolism and perspiration. Furthermore there is agonal dehydration which means that at death there is a sudden loss of tissue fluid due to steady-state/homeostatic alterations of the body's chemistry. These are all metabolic processes of death that can be explained using fancy equations but I will spare you the math jargon.

Lets make this easy to understand:
The link below is about the size of a container that can hold 21ml, that is the amount of fluid, hence weight, lost at death. Keep this in mind while you read the next paragraph. http://www.verpakkingshop.nl/images/unipot trans 20 ml.jpg

Since 1 gram = 1 cu cm = 1 ml, 21ml (21grams) of fluid (weight) loss is explained by agonal phases of death. As you seen from the link, 21ml is not a lot of fluid to be evaporated on a surface area of 2 square meters of skin. But that is not saying much unless you know what 2 square meters is:

2 square meters is equal to 21.5 square feet; so picture 21.5 ceiling tiles and spreading the vile of fluid equally across this surface area.

To further prove that this is the reason behind the 21 grams, Dr. A. P. Clarke in 1907 repeated the MacDougall experiment on dogs. They did not lose 21 grams because they do not sweat. Dogs maintain body temperature mostly by panting, which cannot be performed after death. (The process of evaporation of fluid on skin does not require life).

Dr. Frank Scali


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And there's where I differ. I don't believe the energy leaves the system, but rejoins the rest of the loose energy in the universe, like the Force concept, where we all go back to the stream from whence we came.



I agree. 
But, for those that say a soul "goes" to H or H then that soul would take 3/4oz...21grams of weight/energy with it out of the system.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> The mathematics of energy conservation are very well understood. They, again, if I'm remembering correctly, measured the electrical, thermal, kinetic, and stored energy in a person immediately before and immediately after death.
> 
> They knew how much of each would be lost over a time scale of seconds, so a lot of electricity, but not much heat, all of kinetic, but none of stored, accounted for it all and the energy loss was still greater than that math allowed for, so there must have been some other energy at work. That's all that they say about it.
> 
> ...



You're doing the same thing believers do.  They don't really have proof.  They just like how believing unfounded things makes them feel.  You're closer to them than you think.  It's weird that you expect them to be able to prove something when you don't need it yourself.  If you want to believe in ghosts then you will surely see them.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> If we "lose" 3/4 of an ounce of weight(according to Dr. MacDougall in 1907) when we die then we have to ask where this energized weight goes. If it goes to Heaven or H3ll then those places are said to be outside of our Universe, yet it is also said that all the Energy that is in the Universe, stays in the Universe and it is the same amount now as when the Big Bang happened. Losing 3/4oz of energy doesn't sound like much but when you add up every single person that has died it would guess that it is more than a little bit and somehow that loss would be felt or have an effect.
> Which then leads me to wonder if this 3/4oz turns into a spirit or ghost and the energy "stays"  then the concept of Heaven or H3ll goes out the window because why are these people, especially Christians not going to either place?




Why did you take the conversation directly to the Heaven or He11 scenario?  You're as indoctrinated as the rest of us.  It's like you take those places as a given when there's no proof of either.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Why did you take the conversation directly to the Heaven or He11 scenario?  You're as indoctrinated as the rest of us.  It's like you take those places as a given when there's no proof of either.



Sometimes I am not sure if you are serious or not or are just being sarcastic.
Full well knowing that there is no proof of either, I am trying to ask questions to the believers if they can explain things in ways that would make sense.
I used H and H because Christians think they are going to one place or the other and I would like their explanations on how 3/4oz of weight/energy gets to either place and is not missed in the Universe.
Many of the same people also believe in ghosts that they say are right here among us so I am curious and ask them if these ghosts or spirits(possibly made up of this 3/4oz of weight loss at death) are/were Christians then why are they not either in H or H?


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Sometimes I am not sure if you are serious or not or are just being sarcastic.
> Full well knowing that there is no proof of either, I am trying to ask questions to the believers if they can explain things in ways that would make sense.
> I used H and H because Christians think they are going to one place or the other and I would like their explanations on how 3/4oz of weight/energy gets to either place and is not missed in the Universe.
> Many of the same people also believe in ghosts that they say are right here among us so I am curious and ask them if these ghosts or spirits(possibly made up of this 3/4oz of weight loss at death) are/were Christians then why are they not either in H or H?




I just thought we were talking about souls, not Christian mythology.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I just thought we were talking about souls, not Christian mythology.



Well yeah. If we are talking about souls and people that think the soul leaves the body when we die and the soul goes somewhere.... I am just trying to solidify or rule out some places right off the bat.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Well yeah. If we are talking about souls and people that think the soul leaves the body when we die and the soul goes somewhere.... I am just trying to solidify or rule out some places right off the bat.



I think we've established that there is no proof of a soul, just "feelings" that they exist.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I think we've established that there is no proof of a soul, just "feelings" that they exist.



Again...well yeah, but while me, you and maybe a few others are in agreement... I have been waiting for some others to chime in with their thoughts and possible proofs.

In other words:
I am not directing these posts of mine directly at you. I am pretty sure of your stance on things.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Again...well yeah, but while me, you and maybe a few others are in agreement... I have been waiting for some others to chime in with their thoughts and possible proofs.
> 
> In other words:
> I am not directing these posts of mine directly at you. I am pretty sure of your stance on things.



I'd like to see some good solid proof myself.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I'd like to see some good solid proof myself.



ten-figgity-four!


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If someone can do it then it doesn't matter if we want it to or not.. It will be undeniable and we will have to accept it.  Because reality is what we base our whole lives on.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Nov 14, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If I can live through all of that and hear nothing then what else is in store for me so that I can experience enough suffering in order to believe? And what's the point of it all if this God truly loves me?



Have you ever read the book of Job?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 14, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I just thought we were talking about souls, not Christian mythology.



Maybe all this talk of Atheist having souls, alternate life forces, and praying is a new form of Lite Atheism.
It sounds too New Age like for Atheism. Anybody use Crystal Quartz?


----------



## drippin' rock (Nov 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Have you ever read the book of Job?



fairy tales


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe all this talk of Atheist having souls, alternate life forces, and praying is a new form of Lite Atheism.
> It sounds too New Age like for Atheism. Anybody use Crystal Quartz?




I can talk about spirituality as a particular type of thought. A way of engaging something intuitive, something sublime, not usually experienced consciously in the daily milieu.  

I don't think any of us believe that there is concrete evidence of a soul, including yourself.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


>



You know what's real?  People don't resurrect.  That's real.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I don't think any of us believe that there is concrete evidence of a soul, including yourself.



How can there be concrete evidence of something non-concrete....or, extra-physical?

In order to have such a discussion, both sides need to accept the possibilities.  This "pull up a soul and show me" is a non-starter.  It elliminates the possibility of the existence of a soul based on parameters which such a thing could never be measured with in the first place.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 15, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> You're doing the same thing believers do.  They don't really have proof.  They just like how believing unfounded things makes them feel.  You're closer to them than you think.  It's weird that you expect them to be able to prove something when you don't need it yourself.  If you want to believe in ghosts then you will surely see them.



I'm not doing the same thing. I'm choosing to believe what I will, but I'm not asking, or expecting, anyone else to. 

I don't hold it up as proof of anything, or worship anything. 

All I'm doing is interpreting the data that there is in the way that I understand it.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 15, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I'm not doing the same thing. I'm choosing to believe what I will, but I'm not asking, or expecting, anyone else to.
> 
> I don't hold it up as proof of anything, or worship anything.
> 
> All I'm doing is interpreting the data that there is in the way that I understand it.



Right. You're not saying it's the way and the truth when you and your own pastor don't even agree on it. I feel like you are candid that it is your own idea.

All of us have our own idea of what is likely or possible... We just don't all claim that it's so true that you are eternally punished if you don't agree.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How can there be concrete evidence of something non-concrete....or, extra-physical?
> 
> In order to have such a discussion, both sides need to accept the possibilities.  This "pull up a soul and show me" is a non-starter.  It elliminates the possibility of the existence of a soul based on parameters which such a thing could never be measured with in the first place.



It has been shown in here that the arguments brought up for having a soul, like weight loss at death, and only humans losing that weight not animals, have been debunked and explained. No one has brought up anything else yet that is a solid argument for having a soul. Some seem to have eluded that only believers somehow have souls, but no one has brought up anything other than what could be explained as a conscience powered by electrical impulses within the brain.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Nov 15, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How can there be concrete evidence of something non-concrete....or, extra-physical?
> 
> In order to have such a discussion, both sides need to accept the possibilities.  This "pull up a soul and show me" is a non-starter.  It elliminates the possibility of the existence of a soul based on parameters which such a thing could never be measured with in the first place.



I agree that it's a non-starter... But then speaking of the non physical world..... we can make up anything we'd like, call it truth and no one can prove us wrong.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

Lots of these concepts by humans started at a time when things were less understood. As we advanced these things have been proven to exist, but not in the manner as it has been thought to exist earlier. Science has done a good job of explaining our conscience and mind and much of those studies can explain why many humans think they have a soul. The same people are fine with sticking to thoughts that are thousands of years old that attempt to explain why we have souls, but time has passed them by and newer findings tell another story.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

There are people today that still reference the experiment where a body loses weight at the moment of death. Whether the people that state this as fact have researched the experiment or are just going by whatever they have heard(because the amount of weight varies depending who is telling the "facts") many of these people do not realize that the experiment they are referring to took place 106 years ago. They do not have a clue that 6 subjects were used and 2 out of the 6 were thrown out of the studybecause the findings did not match with the other 4. Since this experiment there have been tests done, more precise tests with better equipment, that explain what happens when a body dies..why it happens..and also why it also happens to certain animals. Like religion it seems that many people are quick to repeat outdated stories without ever really looking into if anything has changed since and more importantly why it has changed.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> It has been shown in here that the arguments brought up for having a soul, like weight loss at death, and only humans losing that weight not animals, have been debunked and explained.



Physical arguments will always fail when explaining the non-physical.



bullethead said:


> No one has brought up anything else yet that is a solid argument for having a soul.



Sure they have.  However, these arguments are dismissed as "evolution" much in the same manner that theists say "God dun it."  I can create a theory on anything you want, which might seem reasonable, if I have endless variables to work with......you and I both operate in such a framework when discussing these things.



bullethead said:


> Some seem to have eluded that only believers somehow have souls, but no one has brought up anything other than what could be explained as a conscience powered by electrical impulses within the brain.



That's my point.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> There are people today that still reference the experiment where a body loses weight at the moment of death. Whether the people that state this as fact have researched the experiment or are just going by whatever they have heard(because the amount of weight varies depending who is telling the "facts") many of these people do not realize that the experiment they are referring to took place 106 years ago. They do not have a clue that 6 subjects were used and 2 out of the 6 were thrown out of the studybecause the findings did not match with the other 4. Since this experiment there have been tests done, more precise tests with better equipment, that explain what happens when a body dies..why it happens..and also why it also happens to certain animals. Like religion it seems that many people are quick to repeat outdated stories without ever really looking into if anything has changed since and more importantly why it has changed.



They also recently found spear heads which will re-write the history of humans.  Everything you believed was true, is now false......

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013...ears-predate-existence-humans-by-85000-years/

One theory is that there was an acient "Bill Gates" amongst them 

Anything can sound reasonable if said correctly.


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I agree that it's a non-starter... But then speaking of the non physical world..... we can make up anything we'd like, call it truth and no one can prove us wrong.



Happens in the physl world also, see my last post about a "Bill Gates" pre-human.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

I'm having trouble understanding Agnostics. You are somewhere in between believing a God is possible, but you aren't real sure. If I thought there was the remote possibility of a God, I would try to find out what he wants from me.
I guess a better way would be believing in a God but just not sure which one to follow. But then again there are many people who believe in God that do nothing about it because they are waiting on that feeling to overcome them. To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him. I don't think it's a gray matter. If I stopped believing in God, I would go all the way to the other end of the spectrum to include not believing in a soul or life force energy.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm having trouble understanding Agnostics. You are somewhere in between believing a God is possible, but you aren't real sure. If I thought there was the remote possibility of a God, I would try to find out what he wants from me.
> I guess a better way would be believing in a God but just not sure which one to follow. But then again there are many people who believe in God that do nothing about it because they are waiting on that feeling to overcome them.To God it doesn't really mater as you are either with him or against him. I don't think it's a gray matter. If I stopped believing in God, I would go all the way to the other end of the spectrum to include not believing in a soul or life force energy.



You're dealing in absolutes, something that religion is very good at indoctrinating people with, and I don't use that term to offend. 

You either believe 100% or you'll be punished. It generally gets pretty squishy after that, though. 

For me, why I'm an agnostic and not an atheist is purely left to the unknowns. The gravitational constant being what it is could just be a fluke, or it could be the work of a designer, I don't know which so I can't rule either way.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> You're dealing in absolutes, something that religion is very good at indoctrinating people with, and I don't use that term to offend.
> 
> You either believe 100% or you'll be punished. It generally gets pretty squishy after that, though.
> 
> For me, why I'm an agnostic and not an atheist is purely left to the unknowns. The gravitational constant being what it is could just be a fluke, or it could be the work of a designer, I don't know which so I can't rule either way.



Understandable, no offense taken. I wasn't trying  to offend either.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Understandable, no offense taken. I wasn't trying  to offend either.





Boy this thread grew some legs...


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## TripleXBullies (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm having trouble understanding Agnostics. You are somewhere in between believing a God is possible, but you aren't real sure. If I thought there was the remote possibility of a God, I would try to find out what he wants from me.
> I guess a better way would be believing in a God but just not sure which one to follow. But then again there are many people who believe in God that do nothing about it because they are waiting on that feeling to overcome them. To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him. I don't think it's a gray matter. If I stopped believing in God, I would go all the way to the other end of the spectrum to include not believing in a soul or life force energy.



It feels like you're saying if you didn't believe in GOD... not in A god. Just because your god doesn't exist, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. And what if he doesn't really care what we do while we live. Get away from the framework of your god... because as soon as you feel that he's not real then it opens up many more possibilities.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> It feels like you're saying if you didn't believe in GOD... not in A god. Just because your god doesn't exist, doesn't mean that one doesn't exist. And what if he doesn't really care what we do while we live. Get away from the framework of your god... because as soon as you feel that he's not real then it opens up many more possibilities.



So in other words getting away from believing in one of the already established Gods, opens up the opportunity for one to explain God in ones own way. With no established God, he can be whomever you define and as you define or believe him to be. 
He could have unlimited entities, male and female or no human traits at all such as love or anger. He might not even have any commandments or guidelines for us to follow. His abilities might have ended at creation. He might not have foreknowledge or the ability to intervene or predestinate. The possibilities are unlimited without using the constraints of my indoctrination.


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> They also recently found spear heads which will re-write the history of humans.  Everything you believed was true, is now false......
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013...ears-predate-existence-humans-by-85000-years/
> 
> ...



I am all for any information that can be validated. Whether I like it, love it, or it goes against what I previously thought....

But, I think this is how misinformation gets it's start....no where did I read anything that mentioned a Bill Gates.....


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Happens in the physl world also, see my last post about a "Bill Gates" pre-human.



Ehhhhhh, change one name, even a similar type of person....and the story changes.

I disagree with your physical world theory. Whatever can be said, but there is always information available to prove it or disprove it. The "Steve Jobs" type of pre-human will either be found correct or not.


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm having trouble understanding Agnostics. You are somewhere in between believing a God is possible, but you aren't real sure. If I thought there was the remote possibility of a God, I would try to find out what he wants from me.


Many have asked and seek but still no answer



Artfuldodger said:


> I guess a better way would be believing in a God but just not sure which one to follow. But then again there are many people who believe in God that do nothing about it because they are waiting on that feeling to overcome them.


Some believe in the possibility of a God but none of the popular religions versions feel right. But these people are open to a God intervention yet it never happens, at least nothing that can be 100% without question from a God.


Artfuldodger said:


> To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him. I don't think it's a gray matter.


I am very curious as to how you know this.



Artfuldodger said:


> If I stopped believing in God, I would go all the way to the other end of the spectrum to include not believing in a soul or life force energy.


With or without beliefs, everyone has a different opinion of what they THINK happens so it sounds right inside their own head.


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## HawgJawl (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm having trouble understanding Agnostics. You are somewhere in between believing a God is possible, but you aren't real sure. If I thought there was the remote possibility of a God, I would try to find out what he wants from me.
> I guess a better way would be believing in a God but just not sure which one to follow. But then again there are many people who believe in God that do nothing about it because they are waiting on that feeling to overcome them. To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him. I don't think it's a gray matter. If I stopped believing in God, I would go all the way to the other end of the spectrum to include not believing in a soul or life force energy.



Try to imagine this perspective:

Group (A) proclaims that they are certain that intelligent life exists in galaxy "something".  They have even developed many different theories about this intelligent life and how it thinks and what it wants, based upon reported contacts with this life form in the past.

Group (B) proclaims that they are certain that no intelligent life form exists in galaxy "something".

Group (C) says that until there are a few factual pieces of information regarding galaxy "something" there is nothing to base an educated guess upon.  And until there is some reason to actually believe that intelligent life exists in galaxy "something" there is no reason to concern ourselves with what this supposed intelligent life might want.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
> To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him. I don't think it's a gray matter.
> 
> I am very curious as to how you know this.



It's a major belief held by Christians. I could imagine a God who doesn't command his existence if I was looking elsewhere other than Jesus and his Father. I don't see that happening as I said before; If I was to stop believing in the God of Abraham, I would stop believing in the concept of a God. I would quit cold turkey so to speak. I would not stop believing in one God just to start believing in another God. If my belief changes, the reason for my disbelief would be the reason for not believing in any God. With me it's all or nothing. Either I believe in a particular God or I don't believe in even the remote possibility of a God. If something caused me to abandon my God then religion would be over for me. I wouldn't go shopping for another one or even the concept of one.


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's a major belief held by Christians. I could imagine a God who doesn't command his existence if I was looking elsewhere other than Jesus and his Father. I don't see that happening as I said before; If I was to stop believing in the God of Abraham, I would stop believing in the concept of a God. I would quit cold turkey so to speak. I would not stop believing in one God just to start believing in another God. If my belief changes, the reason for my disbelief would be the reason for not believing in any God. With me it's all or nothing. Either I believe in a particular God or I don't believe in even the remote possibility of a God. If something caused me to abandon my God then religion would be over for me. I wouldn't go shopping for another one or even the concept of one.



"To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him"
THAT is a Major belief among Christians???
I know what you are saying, or trying to say But one of my peeves is when plain ol humans who have never spoken to God directly tell other humans what matters to God, what he thinks, what he would say, how he would feel. etc etc etc
Just like your personal scenario you outlined "IF" you stopped believing in a God. You can certainly speak for you and what you would do, but it also seems like you are speaking for God and what you, ahem, "he" cares about.


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ehhhhhh, change one name, even a similar type of person....and the story changes.



   Bill Gates, Steve Jobs......same thing.  I was in a big darned hurry.  The point remains that such was a theory presented by a scientist.  My original post carried the point just fine.  The comment on misinformation was misdirection.  The point remains that it is a stupid theory, which is easier for you to accept than other things because it is presented outside the possibility of a god in the mix.

Yes, I see it now, amongst all the monkeys was a "Steve Jobs" monkey, who was really darn good at flint knapping.



bullethead said:


> I disagree with your physical world theory. Whatever can be said, but there is always information available to prove it or disprove it. The "Steve Jobs" type of pre-human will either be found correct or not.



How so?  They can never say there was a really smart monkey, or not.  It is a theory based on evidence at hand with zero possibility of being debunked.  There will not be dual sources of information to verify whether or not there was a really smart monkey in the mix.  Just won't happen.

But, it is a theory, and it's floating out there with the rest of them.

Do you buy it?


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2013)

Jaybean theory on the origins of the pre-human spear points.......

In this ancient civilization of humanoid mammals, who had evolved to society given their lack of physical prowess, a massive anteater-ish creature emerged as the dominate species in the mix.  This critter had it's way with things, and the pre-humans could not prevent it's dominance.  

There could have been a rising from the masses, not one, but many humanoids, who's non-soul containing brains were incapable of much other than basic deductive reasoning, recognized that survival hinged on the defeat of the anteaterish monster (yet to be discovered, but there is fossil record of large rodents at the time....but of course, I could have used large predatory rodents in the story but it wouldn't have been as funny as the mental image of an anteater tormenting pre-humans).

Given that one's demise was imminent, many searched for rescue amongst the rainforest which inhabited the African continent.  They were still tree climbers, but so was the dang yet undiscovered anteaters.  Through Darwinian advances, a few were able to escape.  The lesser pre-humans, of course, were eaten.

These pre-humans bred other pre-humans which were capable of building upon their ancestor's expertise.  One band of which learned that hiding amongst sharp rocks would prevent the advance of the anteaterish monster.  Over time, they would congregate amongst these sharp rocks.  Some, when given the lack of sharp rocks around, would chew upon the stones they found in order to sharpen them (a previously unknown purpose for the appendix......that will be theorized up much later by more brilliant scientists than the "Steve Jobs" dude).  Eventually, they determined that the sharp stones were capable of damaging the flesh of the anteaterish.  And, as they threw these stones at each other, they realized that every now and then one would piece the flesh of other pre-human critters....maybe, this would work on the anteaterish?????

Eureka!!!

We have spear points.

Now, ^^^^That's a physical explanation which removes the soul and God from the picture, which exploits Darwinian logic to come to a conclusion as to why a spear point would exist pre-human.

It is just as logical, and provable, as the Steve Jobs Monkey.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

As a Christian who believes in evolution, I wonder when we evolved  into humans developed enough to deserve a soul. Did it happen in one generation as in Adam & Eve? Could we de-evolve into not having a soul? Maybe crossing with life forms from other planets or test tube babies.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Jaybean theory on the origins of the pre-human spear points.......
> 
> In this ancient civilization of humanoid mammals, who had evolved to society given their lack of physical prowess, a massive anteater-ish creature emerged as the dominate species in the mix.  This critter had it's way with things, and the pre-humans could not prevent it's dominance.
> 
> ...



Driving to the store for beer removes God from the picture if he didn't predestine me to drive to the store for beer. My ancestors accidentally left some fruit juice out of the refrigerator too long. Something turned it into wine. They drunk it anyway and liked it better than fruit juice. Kinda like evolution, did God play the scientist?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2013)

bullethead said:


> "To God it doesn't really matter as you are either with him or against him"
> THAT is a Major belief among Christians???
> I know what you are saying, or trying to say But one of my peeves is when plain ol humans who have never spoken to God directly tell other humans what matters to God, what he thinks, what he would say, how he would feel. etc etc etc
> Just like your personal scenario you outlined "IF" you stopped believing in a God. You can certainly speak for you and what you would do, but it also seems like you are speaking for God and what you, ahem, "he" cares about.



Not wanting to quote a Bible verse but Jesus speaking for his Daddy said , you are either for me or against me. 
What this means to me is Atheist, Hindus, Jews, Wiccans, and Muslims are against God. Mainly because Jesus said it.
I can't personally speak for Jesus or his Dad, so maybe it's not true. My "cares" aren't important. Now if God is made up in my mind and him is me, then this whole conversation isn't important anyway. 
If I concede that that is a possibility, does that make me Agnostic?


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Bill Gates, Steve Jobs......same thing.  I was in a big darned hurry.  The point remains that such was a theory presented by a scientist.  My original post carried the point just fine.  The comment on misinformation was misdirection.  The point remains that it is a stupid theory, which is easier for you to accept than other things because it is presented outside the possibility of a god in the mix.
> 
> Yes, I see it now, amongst all the monkeys was a "Steve Jobs" monkey, who was really darn good at flint knapping.
> 
> ...



Jesus-Mohammad, same thing... 
I don't buy that there was a monkey involved at all.

If these artifacts are as old as they say. If the information is valid. If more clues can be found to back it up. Then one of the earliest humans was a little smarter than the rest a lot earlier than once thought. Could be possible.


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## JB0704 (Nov 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Jesus-Mohammad, same thing...



I have an offer, you choose any book for me to read relative to your worldview and I will read it, and in return, I have one for you......it won't change your mind, but it will give you perspective.



bullethead said:


> I don't buy that there was a monkey involved at all.



Me either.....I was being sarcastic.  There is, however, a lot of debate over many of these pre-human fossils.  That is not to say that I don't believe life has evolved.....it's just to say that we often get a TON of speculation from the scientific community, and the reason it gets believed is because of who said it and how they said it.

Sometimes, you gotta step back and ask "did they really just theorize that there was a Steve Jobs-type prehuman?"



bullethead said:


> If these artifacts are as old as they say. If the information is valid. If more clues can be found to back it up. Then one of the earliest humans was a little smarter than the rest a lot earlier than once thought. Could be possible.



If, if, if, could......we are now on equal logical ground.


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## bullethead (Nov 16, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I have an offer, you choose any book for me to read relative to your worldview and I will read it, and in return, I have one for you......it won't change your mind, but it will give you perspective.



All I was getting at is that for the people that did not read the article, they will pass on what you said in the thread using the Bill Gates reference. In time it may turn into Bill Murray.....





JB0704 said:


> Me either.....I was being sarcastic.  There is, however, a lot of debate over many of these pre-human fossils.  That is not to say that I don't believe life has evolved.....it's just to say that we often get a TON of speculation from the scientific community, and the reason it gets believed is because of who said it and how they said it.


That makes two of us that were being sarcastic. I do not take everything as fact nor do I believe this article is correct. But there are spearheads that have been found. No denying that. The next step is finding out more about who made them.




JB0704 said:


> Sometimes, you gotta step back and ask "did they really just theorize that there was a Steve Jobs-type prehuman?"


I can read through the smoke. I take everything with a grain of salt. It is clear the "Steve Jobs" reference was the authors way of connecting the readers with someone they can relate to in today's terms. Most likely, one early human showed another early human what he did.....that is not to hard to fathom on my end. That is how all animals pass on information.





JB0704 said:


> If, if, if, could......we are now on equal logical ground.


When dealing with real people and actual spearheads that were obviously made by someone that existed and are now in possession to be studied, the "Ifs and Coulds" have more clout behind them than the "Ifs and Coulds" of things things that are "Ifs and Coulds" themselves.


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## bullethead (Nov 16, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I have an offer, you choose any book for me to read relative to your worldview and I will read it, and in return, I have one for you......it won't change your mind, but it will give you perspective.



I cannot say there is a book written that describes my worldviews. I take it all in and form my own opinion. Like many things seen in here, I tend to like what I agree with and think those ways are more "right".......but I'll admit, right for me.


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## JB0704 (Nov 16, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I cannot say there is a book written that describes my worldviews. I take it all in and form my own opinion. Like many things seen in here, I tend to like what I agree with and think those ways are more "right".......but I'll admit, right for me.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It's been something that has been building within me any time someone in the PF, or even up here, states that knowing right from wrong, or having a moral code, or proposing laws are meaningless without a higher power.
> 
> In short, they're telling me that my beliefs, on those topics, are invalid because I don't subscribe to God all the while telling me that I insult them by questioning God, and not expecting me to be insulted about the insinuations they make about my personal character.




i'm here,, lol
 i'd love to see atheist build a society..
what do you do eat each other.. if you don't like them or their family we'll just go over and boil them alive..
you'll not insult me by asking questions and i have had to answer the same questions myself before.. i'm not the perfect christian but i will fight for God.. if no one believes theirs a higher authority then we wouldn't have any morals.. the only reason the country is in this kind of shape.. people that wanna question why they should have a belief.. its the whole point of Christianity not to question whats right just know that its for the common good. but see here in america we have alot of free thinkers that think they know a better way and everyone else is wrong.. this is whats eating at our moral fabric.. everyone is at odds with his neighbor because he don't believe what the other one does.. if he's rich then he thinks he neighbor is just a slacker that don't know how to work in a capitalistic society. if he's poor then he thinks his neighbor is just putting him under his foot stool.. some Christians have used the church to build them and their family's a place of refuge against a world they're scared of.. Christians are scared of atheist because we've been taught the devil walks with them..i'm not scared of the atheist or the non believer your just as welcome here as anyone. i'll treat you the same, even if you don't believe we can still associate.. this is the doctrine of Jesus to walk among the non believers and beat back the serpent of the earth.. and   its all tied together.

probably not the best thing ,,,if we all believe the same but if people question morals then they're wondering why have any? can't i just get away with whatever,act how i want, do what i want, buy what i want..

theirs a reason behind it all ,can a tree produce two different kind of fruit? if your a non believer and questions whats right then go out and produce something thats wrong.


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## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i'm here,, lol
> i'd love to see atheist build a society..
> what do you do eat each other.. if you don't like them or their family we'll just go over and boil them alive..
> you'll not insult me by asking questions and i have had to answer the same questions myself before.. i'm not the perfect christian but i will fight for God.. if no one believes theirs a higher authority then we wouldn't have any morals.. the only reason the country is in this kind of shape.. people that wanna question why they should have a belief.. its the whole point of Christianity not to question whats right just know that its for the common good. but see here in america we have alot of free thinkers that think they know a better way and everyone else is wrong.. this is whats eating at our moral fabric.. everyone is at odds with his neighbor because he don't believe what the other one does.. if he's rich then he thinks he neighbor is just a slacker that don't know how to work in a capitalistic society. if he's poor then he thinks his neighbor is just putting him under his foot stool.. some Christians have used the church to build them and their family's a place of refuge against a world they're scared of.. Christians are scared of atheist because we've been taught the devil walks with them..i'm not scared of the atheist or the non believer your just as welcome here as anyone. i'll treat you the same, even if you don't believe we can still associate.. this is the doctrine of Jesus to walk among the non believers and beat back the serpent of the earth.. and   its all tied together.
> ...


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

i got an idea lets just pretend the turkey is our neighbors head this year that'll be a whole of fun.. i just thought of it and since these guys say they're no reason for beliefs then its okay and i can think for myself whats right and wrong.

i could have handed you any book on morals when you come of age even not the bible and yet you would have questioned why to have morals and beliefs..

if your ignorant theirs usually a reason, ted turners reason is he's rich and knows he's headed for the word that rhymes with jail. cause im a potty mouth- because he's doesn't feel like taking care of his brothers and sisters. he wants to be the ruler of his own mind.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

its not a fact if its real or not... it is real, i'm here,your here, my church is here, my bible is here.. your questioning reality.. its just the reality that you choose for yourself..


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

if your ignorant cause you feel like an outsider then= we all do.. its part of life to not feel accepted.  we have a world full of people who want to rule their own minds and its leading us down a road of instability and uncertainty


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

look at times when the culture agrees their is a god and accept him. theres great prosperity.. not of wealth in riches but in achievements and knowledge and all true gifts comes from above. kids,health, love


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 17, 2013)

I don't know what kind of morals Ted Turner has but he donates a lot of money to charity as does Oprah. 
Would you say people in other countries who worship other Gods get their morals from those Gods? Tiny little villages in the rainforest, where do their morals come from?


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know what kind of morals Ted Turner has but he donates a lot of money to charity as does Oprah.
> Would you say people in other countries who worship other Gods get their morals from those Gods? Tiny little villages in the rainforest, where do their morals come from?



exactly they all draw from a greater power than themselfs.. and have you really checked on where that money goes we'll never know.. i've seen where all those people have handed millions out and not one time have i heard of anyone actually benefiting from it. even if they give all their money away without a greater power it was done in vain and will benefit no one.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> exactly they all draw from a greater power than themselfs.. and have you really checked on where that money goes we'll never know.. i've seen where all those people have handed millions out and not one time have i heard of anyone actually benefiting from it. even if they give all their money away without a greater power it was done in vain and will benefit no one.



I'm trying to follow your beliefs on where morals come from. Do you believe they come from the God of Abraham or from a higher power? Do Hindus get their morals from a different higher power than we Christians, Jews, or Muslims?


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

i don't really know i have noticed most religions have the same charactors.. my son was really really tired been up all night playing with friends and one of them got a new mindcraft game for xbox at their house.. i told him he couldn't go over there he had to come home we we're having family sunday dinner.. he told me he would kill himself if he couldn't go play that game.. doesn't that tell you enough about the worlds evil and the game we're playing.. does it make my son crazy he's six he don't know crazy or has an evil been impressed upon him? is it because the world has turned to ruling their own minds? he sure don't care what i say and other people are the same way.. he's not crazy he's being controled by people trying to gain control over his mind.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i don't really know i have noticed most religions have the same charactors..



So for a person to have morals all he needs to believe in is a higher power. This belief in any higher power will instill the morals needed to keep someone from hurting his fellow man and loving his neighbor.
Atheist on the other hand can't have morals because they don't have a reason to not hurt their neighbor? It just takes the belief in a higher power, not the actual higher power, for someone to have morals?


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## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So for a person to have morals all he needs to believe in is a higher power. This belief in any higher power will instill the morals needed to keep someone from hurting his fellow man and loving his neighbor.
> Atheist on the other hand can't have morals because they don't have a reason to not hurt their neighbor? It just takes the belief in a higher power, not the actual higher power, for someone to have morals?



well you draw from where you like..   i'm drawing on a powerful god slow to anger, full of mercy and the hand of righteousness .


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## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i got an idea lets just pretend the turkey is our neighbors head this year that'll be a whole of fun.. i just thought of it and since these guys say they're no reason for beliefs then its okay and i can think for myself whats right and wrong.
> 
> i could have handed you any book on morals when you come of age even not the bible and yet you would have questioned why to have morals and beliefs..
> 
> if your ignorant theirs usually a reason, ted turners reason is he's rich and knows he's headed for the word that rhymes with jail. cause im a potty mouth- because he's doesn't feel like taking care of his brothers and sisters. he wants to be the ruler of his own mind.



WHO said people do not have morals? It sounds like that is YOU putting words down that no one said but you seem to think others have said.
There is not a single thing that you have said that has been able to be linked to a God, other than what you think exists in your own mind.
If you can slow down, quote exactly WHO and WHAT you are replying to, and make some sense.... this conversation can go more smoothly.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i don't really know i have noticed most religions have the same charactors.. my son was really really tired been up all night playing with friends and one of them got a new mindcraft game for xbox at their house.. i told him he couldn't go over there he had to come home we we're having family sunday dinner.. he told me he would kill himself if he couldn't go play that game.. doesn't that tell you enough about the worlds evil and the game we're playing.. does it make my son crazy he's six he don't know crazy or has an evil been impressed upon him? is it because the world has turned to ruling their own minds? he sure don't care what i say and other people are the same way.. he's not crazy he's being controled by people trying to gain control over his mind.



Less evil, more parenting.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> look at times when the culture agrees their is a god and accept him. theres great prosperity.. not of wealth in riches but in achievements and knowledge and all true gifts comes from above. kids,health, love



Give us some examples that are unquestionably the result of a God. Start with the culture and how it prospered then how it is linked to their God.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> WHO said people do not have morals? It sounds like that is YOU putting words down that no one said but you seem to think others have said.
> There is not a single thing that you have said that has been able to be linked to a God, other than what you think exists in your own mind.
> If you can slow down, quote exactly WHO and WHAT you are replying to, and make some sense.... this conversation can go more smoothly.



theres no conversation with ignorance... its okay it your probably better off not knowing the power of God but when you do you'll understand... when your really tested in life and say you don't believe then you've given up and have been doomed to your own evils and torment.. if you've never been really tested and you cannot comprehend the power of god then i'd say you'll be okay not knowing because its just better that way... i will tell you though i wouldn't make God my enemy.. its all in my mind you say like i'm crazy but we are living something that has been done before. where do you think all those amazing places on earth come from? do you think they we're atheist and didn't believe in nothing done that? How do you create wonderful things and true knowledge?''not video games and dvd players''  i''m talking true knowledge for saving the starved, endless food supply, never any health issues that couldn't be healed// you think wal mart is gonna come up with you a cancer survival pack>?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> theres no conversation with ignorance... its okay it your probably better off not knowing the power of God but when you do you'll understand... when your really tested in life and say you don't believe then you've given up and have been doomed to your own evils and torment.. if you've never been really tested and you cannot comprehend the power of god then i'd say you'll be okay not knowing because its just better that way... i will tell you though i wouldn't make God my enemy.. its all in my mind you say like i'm crazy but we are living something that has been done before. where do you think all those amazing places on earth come from? do you think they we're atheist and didn't believe in nothing done that? How do you create wonderful things and true knowledge?''not video games and dvd players''  i''m talking true knowledge for saving the starved, endless food supply, never any health issues that couldn't be healed// you think wal mart is gonna come up with you a cancer survival pack>?



Show where YOUR God is responsible for all of these things.

When is your God gonna do something about these starving, crippled, unhealthy and cancer ridden?


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

the reason you wouldn't need to know the power of God is because you would use it for your own good or make it about putting money in your pocket.. no one else would ever cross into your mind.. it would destroy you and your mind... 

i'm not even saying you have to go to church, all i'm saying is humble yourself bow your head and ask forgiveness for your wrongs doings.. if you don't realize your wrong then where does your evil end.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Show where YOUR God is responsible for all of these things.
> 
> When is your God gonna do something about these starving, crippled, unhealthy and cancer ridden?



when we all ask for it with truly humbled hearts in true faith proven by our good works.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> the reason you wouldn't need to know the power of God is because you would use it for your own good or make it about putting money in your pocket.. no one else would ever cross into your mind.. it would destroy you and your mind...
> 
> i'm not even saying you have to go to church, all i'm saying is humble yourself bow your head and ask forgiveness for your wrongs doings.. if you don't realize your wrong then where does your evil end.



Oh.
Sorry tried all that and it didn't work.
I feel sorry that you are broke and give all the money you do have to representatives of a God that doesn't need it.
My eyes opened up when I realized that an all mighty powerful deity is powerless against "evil". If he is more powerful than evil and his sole existence is to battle evil then why is there so much evil?


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

if you save one soul it washes away a magnitude of sin..


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Oh.
> Sorry tried all that and it didn't work.
> I feel sorry that you are broke and give all the money you do have representatives of a God that doesn't need it.
> My eyes opened up when I realized that an all mighty powerful deity is powerless against "evil". If he is more powerful than evil and his sole existence is to battle evil then why is there so much evil?



the reason the evil exist is because you have allowed it..


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

i'm not worryed about money see thats where the evil has slipped in your worryed about money over your own good.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> when we all ask for it with truly humbled hearts in true faith proven by our good works.



News Flash:
It's not gonna happen. Hundreds of thousands of years of human animals on this planet and not one God to show for it.
You have obviously asked for it...hows that working out for you?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i'm not worryed about money see thats where the evil has slipped in your worryed about money over your own good.



YOU are the only one that brought up money so I obliged your conversation. You rambled off on three or four tangents about money. Dano.....for not being worried about money you certainly mention it a lot.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> if you save one soul it washes away a magnitude of sin..



Show me


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

when did i make it about money?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> the reason the evil exist is because you have allowed it..



Me?
Am I your God?
Don't go pointing fingers when you are having "evil" problems of your own in your household. If both you and I have evil where do we differ?


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> News Flash:
> It's not gonna happen. Hundreds of thousands of years of human animals on this planet and not one God to show for it.
> You have obviously asked for it...hows that working out for you?



not one god to show for it, we have the bible, koran,etc.. 
are you saying all our ancestors just done this to us because they we're all idiots and your the true messiah? its okay man i know where i stand and i can tell your bent on your ways.. i think you might have had something really devastating in your life.. you can draw great power from your struggles..


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Me?
> Am I your God?
> Don't go pointing fingers when you are having "evil" problems of your own in your household. If both you and I have evil where do we differ?



we all full of evil the evil comes in from every where no one is protected from it. see this is where you wanna feel special, if it doesn't benefit just you and you alone then you don't believe , its been said but your not willing to listen.. its the evil we allow to exist due to not believing we're truly special and better than just not doing anything or believing anything and going about our evil ways...

 should i just go out and do what i want?
where dos it lead if you can tell me or do you have literature and thousands of years of knowledge to prove it? 
should i look to for guidance? 
do you have power i can draw from?
or is there no power and everyone just go about there own ways?
let me know i mean if your way is so good and your beliefs have turned just about everyone is this country over to your ways then why is things getting worse? or do you claim their getting better? if its a wonderful life full of doing what i want when i want then i shouldn't care about you at all.. right>? why care what happens when we're getting our way?
so does your way lead to hatred? 
i wanna know do you have doctrine that looks out for one another>? 
i mean really i wanna know? 
if i didnt care about anyones wrong doings and non beliefs then we don't care about one another.. so when feast and famine hits cause no one cared to plant but for themselfs. what do i do?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> not one god to show for it, we have the bible, koran,etc..
> are you saying all our ancestors just done this to us because they we're all idiots and your the true messiah? its okay man i know where i stand and i can tell your bent on your ways.. i think you might have had something really devastating in your life.. you can draw great power from your struggles..



You need to do a lot more homework. There have been literally tens upon tens of thousands of "Gods" conjured up over time. Not a single one any more true than the next.
If your proof is the Bible, Koran and the Torah then you must know they all worship the same God so why all the difference in the belief between the three???


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> we all full of evil the evil comes in from every where no one is protected from it. see this is where you wanna feel special, if it doesn't benefit just you and you alone then you don't believe , its been said but your not willing to listen.. its the evil we allow to exist due to not believing we're truly special and better than just not doing anything or believing anything and going about our evil ways...



I guess if your God can't or won't do anything about evil then "we" are the only that have to. No need to worship anything.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> should i just go out and do what i want?
> where dos it lead if you can tell me or do you have literature and thousands of years of knowledge to prove it?
> should i look to for guidance?
> do you have power i can draw from?



Well now this is where you are in a pickle:

You don't go out and do what you want because you believe in a God

I do not go out and do what I want and I do not worship a God.

We both get along just fine in life.

If you want power to draw from remember this:
No matter what you do there are consequences..both good and bad.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Well now this is where you are in a pickle:
> 
> You don't go out and do what you want because you believe in a God
> 
> ...



so its a matter of consequence..
 what about not caring for one another>?


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> we all full of evil the evil comes in from every where no one is protected from it. see this is where you wanna feel special, if it doesn't benefit just you and you alone then you don't believe , its been said but your not willing to listen.. its the evil we allow to exist due to not believing we're truly special and better than just not doing anything or believing anything and going about our evil ways...
> 
> should i just go out and do what i want?
> where dos it lead if you can tell me or do you have literature and thousands of years of knowledge to prove it?
> ...




can you please answer more of these.. why would a farmer plant>?


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

do we eat each other cause we view ourselfs as animals?

i mean thats what you said was we we're just animals of the earth.. from the monkey right.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> so its a matter of consequence..
> what about not caring for one another>?



Care about one another and it is a good consequence.
Do good Be good and hope others are as well.
Act like a nit wit and it will catch up to you.

Results are the same god or no god.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Care about one another and it is a good consequence.
> Do good Be good and hope others are as well.
> Act like a nit wit and it will catch up to you.
> 
> Results are the same god or no god.



we'll thats starting to sound familar you do believe in something.. where did you draw that power from?
or is it all in your head?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> do we eat each other cause we view ourselfs as animals?
> 
> i mean thats what you said was we we're just animals of the earth.. from the monkey right.



Again your words.....but , your extremely limited knowledge of animals has you in a bind already.

NOBODY said we came from a monkey. I have never heard anyone in here say we did.
That is what you tell yourself in your mind about us.

I have news for you....there are lots of animals that do not eat their own kind, but there are many including us that eat other animals.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> we'll thats starting to sound familar you do believe in something.. where did you draw that power from?



Evolution of human kind, trial and error, upbringing, social acceptance, family, etc etc etc.


I gotta run, setting up a butcher shop for deer season. I'll be back on tonight. Keep em coming, i'll catch up


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Evolution of human kind, trial and error, upbringing, social acceptance, family, etc etc etc.
> 
> 
> I gotta run, setting up a butcher shop for deer season. I'll be back on tonight. Keep em coming, i'll catch up



do you truly believe that we evolved>?
i mean really> whens my dogs gonna start talking,texting, and get a job?

these other animals have been here for just as long as us but yet we believe we super exceeded them by our exceptional nature.. we are divine by nature and for nature. we are the care takers of all animals and each other. and as soon as we come to terms with it the better..


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2013)

This thread has taken on a whole new life.....but, honestly, I can't make heads or tails of the last 20+ posts


----------



## drippin' rock (Nov 17, 2013)

That's cause we just took a hard right toward crazy town.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 17, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How can there be concrete evidence of something non-concrete....or, extra-physical?



That's exactly what those experiments were trying to do.  Much in the same way the discipline of Apologetics tries to make a rational argument about the irrational.  And if the 'proof' lies in some undetectable alternate universe then that 'proof' can also be used to explain the power my magic crankbait.  I wonder how many crankbaits one could sell if they just went ahead and advertized it as magical; deriving it's fish catching ability from the 'Nether-realm'.  



JB0704 said:


> In order to have such a discussion, both sides need to accept the possibilities.  This "pull up a soul and show me" is a non-starter.  It elliminates the possibility of the existence of a soul based on parameters which such a thing could never be measured with in the first place.



Ok.  Like we've said before, we may as well be discussing the Warp Drive capabilities on the USS Enterprise, but unlike the soul, we can talk about the warp drive in terms that we actually have practical knowledge of.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> do you truly believe that we evolved>?
> i mean really> whens my dogs gonna start talking,texting, and get a job?
> 
> these other animals have been here for just as long as us but yet we believe we super exceeded them by our exceptional nature.. we are divine by nature and for nature. we are the care takers of all animals and each other. and as soon as we come to terms with it the better..



You do not have to keep showing us that you have not taken any time to educate yourself about The Earth, Life on the Earth and especially humans. We appreciate your involvement here but in all honesty and with much better equipped conversationalist theists, we have gotten LONG past where you are stuck on start up.

Take care and keep on doing what you do. As long as it works for you that is a very good thing.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 17, 2013)

bullethead said:


> You do not have to keep showing us that you have not taken any time to educate yourself about The Earth, Life on the Earth and especially humans. We appreciate your involvement here but in all honesty and with much better equipped conversationalist theists, we have gotten LONG past where you are stuck on start up.
> 
> Take care and keep on doing what you do. As long as it works for you that is a very good thing.




oh well i tried, ''ever heard the term keep it simple stupid'' people have just way over complicated our demise as a whole..


----------



## bullethead (Nov 17, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> oh well i tried, ''ever heard the term keep it simple stupid'' people have just way over complicated our demise as a whole..



Way over complicated.......???

If dreaming up an invisible, non interactive, non communicating, out of this world "buddy" that is said to be all knowing and all powerful and can wipe all evil from existence, but has to kill everyone but 8 people with a flood because he was unhappy with his own work(should have known he screwed up BEFORE he screwed up), then get a virgin pregnant so she can bear his child for the sole reason that the child can suffer and die to save the sins of the very creation that this invisible sky buddy made with a defect in the first place...YET the whole entire world always was, is and will be in total  chaos despite this God being in control of it all and the EXCUSE every single time is "free will"........???

Yeah keep it simple brother...keep it simple.

Lets not forget 66 Books of utter and complete nonsense filled with every imaginable horror done by YOUR God and "WE" have over complicated things. 10-4 Good Buddy


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Much in the same way the discipline of Apologetics tries to make a rational argument about the irrational.  And if the 'proof' lies in some undetectable alternate universe then that 'proof' can also be used to explain the power my magic crankbait.  I wonder how many crankbaits one could sell if they just went ahead and advertized it as magical; deriving it's fish catching ability from the 'Nether-realm'.



The "proof" is very easy to understand.  Your magical crankbait can be proven to be such when you take it to a mud puddle and catch a bass that wasn't there before, or, if you are able to catch anything with it on lake Allatoona.

The soul can be best explained as the "real" reason even you, a die hard atheist, will pull over for funerals......and tell your atheist friends it's for traffic reasons   It's that voice in your head that says "give 'em this moment."  Traffic has not existed long enough for there to be an evolutionary argument otherwise.

For the record, people who don't pull over for funerals have no soul.



ambush80 said:


> Ok.  Like we've said before, we may as well be discussing the Warp Drive capabilities on the USS Enterprise, but unlike the soul, we can talk about the warp drive in terms that we actually have practical knowledge of.



See above.  I gave you a physical example of the soul's product.  Now, we are left discussing whether or not it was previously trained motor neurons firing, or if there is actually an inner voice...a soul....which directs us.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> That's cause we just took a hard right toward crazy town.



No kiddin'.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 17, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The "proof" is very easy to understand.  Your magical crankbait can be proven to be such when you take it to a mud puddle and catch a bass that wasn't there before, or, if you are able to catch anything with it on lake Allatoona.



Is that what its like when prayers are answered?  Like rebuking a tornado in God's name?  Do you think that someone can change the course of a tornado in God's name?



JB0704 said:


> The soul can be best explained as the "real" reason even you, a die hard atheist, will pull over for funerals......and tell your atheist friends it's for traffic reasons   It's that voice in your head that says "give 'em this moment."  Traffic has not existed long enough for there to be an evolutionary argument otherwise.
> 
> For the record, people who don't pull over for funerals have no soul.
> 
> ...



You know why I pull overNo No:

Death evokes strange emotions, even when I come across a carcass in the wild; even more so when dealing with a human.  Until I can be convinced of a soul I can't use it as an explanation for anything.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Like rebuking a tornado in God's name?  Do you think that someone can change the course of a tornado in God's name?



No.



ambush80 said:


> You know why I pull overNo No:



I think you were one of the "for traffic flow" people in that thread.  If I'm wrong, I apologize.



ambush80 said:


> Death evokes strange emotions, even when I come across a carcass in the wild; even more so when dealing with a human.  Until I can be convinced of a soul I can't use it as an explanation for anything.



I understand.  But, my point is that I see those reactions as soul in action......

Our thoughts are generally learned patterns repeating within our brains.  Often, we come across new information.  How do we know how we would react?

I spent a majority of my life not understanding people's reaction to death, as I had never lost anyone close.  Then, my best friend was killed in a car wreck, then another close friend died in his sleep, then, other close friends lost a child.....I mourned differently each time, for very different reasons: one death was way too young and senseless act of self destruction, one death left 3 kids fatherless, one death devastated my dear friends and will forever haunt me.  I learned none of those reactions, but, somehow, I felt differently to each in addition to incredible sadness.  

Was that my motor neurons firing away to learned behavior?  Or, would I have felt the same regardless of what I had seen and learned?  Why was I personally heartbroken over each?  Why do I personally hurt when I hear of something bad happening to a child anywhere?

I do not think there is a scientific or evolutionary explanation to that.  For me, that is my soul at work.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> For the record, people who don't pull over for funerals have no soul.



Some states mandate traffic continue moving. Entire state without a soul? 

I stop if I can pull off the road. I think it is a southern thing. This was what I was taught to do growing up. I am not doing it out of respect for the dead. I am doing it because it is the socially accepted thing to do and a habit...I guess. 
The only thing I think about while pulled over is, "I hope this person didn't have a lot of friends."


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 18, 2013)

660griz said:


> I stop if I can pull off the road. I think it is a southern thing.



*Most* yankees don't have souls.  Everybody knows that.



660griz said:


> The only thing I think about while pulled over is, "I hope this person didn't have a lot of friends."



Why is that?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 18, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i'm here,, lol
> i'd love to see atheist build a society..
> what do you do eat each other.. if you don't like them or their family we'll just go over and boil them alive..
> you'll not insult me by asking questions and i have had to answer the same questions myself before.. i'm not the perfect christian but i will fight for God.. if no one believes theirs a higher authority then we wouldn't have any morals.. the only reason the country is in this kind of shape.. people that wanna question why they should have a belief.. its the whole point of Christianity not to question whats right just know that its for the common good. but see here in america we have alot of free thinkers that think they know a better way and everyone else is wrong.. this is whats eating at our moral fabric.. everyone is at odds with his neighbor because he don't believe what the other one does.. if he's rich then he thinks he neighbor is just a slacker that don't know how to work in a capitalistic society. if he's poor then he thinks his neighbor is just putting him under his foot stool.. some Christians have used the church to build them and their family's a place of refuge against a world they're scared of.. Christians are scared of atheist because we've been taught the devil walks with them..i'm not scared of the atheist or the non believer your just as welcome here as anyone. i'll treat you the same, even if you don't believe we can still associate.. this is the doctrine of Jesus to walk among the non believers and beat back the serpent of the earth.. and   its all tied together.
> ...



The fact that you need God, or Jesus, or an instruction manual on how just to be a good person tells me everything I need to know. 

I, an agnostic, don't need any of that and can find many practical reasons to be a good guy.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> This thread has taken on a whole new life.....but, honestly, I can't make heads or tails of the last 20+ posts



It seems like this thread has become the catch all for every topic in AAA. 

I personally don't have a problem with that. 

It's not like I expected some of the people, they know who they are, to suddenly become logical and rational in the face of their beliefs. 

That would throw too many things into question, and what follows is written from their perspective, like why Mommy, Daddy, and Preacher Bob lied to me my whole life, and, without this artificial construct, that I've been holding up as factual this whole time, what am I use as the basis of my life? 

Some people, I call them mature faithfuls, can tolerate speaking to someone about ideas that challenge their beliefs, listen to them and contemplate them, and have the intestinal fortitude to allow others their beliefs while they retain their own. 

Others, like pigeons playing chess, have to come in here thrashing the board, poohing on it, and trying to degrade anyone who doesn't believe in their imaginary friend as subhuman. They know who they are, too. 

I'm not at all surprised that they have come to this thread, actually I'm happy, because they have self identified to be what they truly are. Judgmental, condescending, self-righteous objects that I can't describe any further here. 

I can speak about religion with the mature faithful. I haven't the time or patience for pigeons.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 18, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> *Most* yankees don't have souls.  Everybody knows that.


 So true.


> Why is that?



So the wait for them to pass will not be long.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 18, 2013)

GOD AND COUNTRY ARE THE SAME>> the people draw their energy and ways from the laws of a government..



how did those people build great things? 
think about it how did they build things we can't reproduce today? its because they believed in each other.. 

if you don't believe in GOD and believe in the true force of nature then we're doomed to a bad place..

if you believe in do good get good and do bad get bad.. where does it end? 

if you have to have a balance of good and evil? 
if you don't have a balance of good and evil then and some of the goody goody think they're really good and everyone else is wrong.. and the bad think they're not good enough so why try?.. we gotta give the bad a reason to try.. 

so why not try to do better... and if does not make sense to anyone if not your ignorant and choose not to see.. open your mind and go into deep thought to achieve a better state of mind..

this will solve this countrys whole problem we need to enlighten ourselves with true knowledge not some created by non believers..


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 18, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> GOD AND COUNTRY ARE THE SAME>> the people draw their energy and ways from the laws of a government..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't need God to be good. I do good all on my own, and you have no idea the peaks to which that good extends, all without the "virtue" of a god. 

I'm not saying one is better than the other, you are, but we both have a net positive effect on the world despite our differences in beliefs.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 18, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> if you don't believe in GOD and believe in the true force of nature then we're doomed to a bad place..



If you believe in God, aren't they the same thing?

We(human race on earth) are doomed. Just a matter of time. Nature will prevail.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 18, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> GOD AND COUNTRY ARE THE SAME>> the people draw their energy and ways from the laws of a government..
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The founding Fathers made sure religion was kept separate from Gov't. And for good reason.


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 18, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I don't need God to be good. I do good all on my own, and you have no idea the peaks to which that good extends, all without the "virtue" of a god.
> 
> I'm not saying one is better than the other, you are, but we both have a net positive effect on the world despite our differences in beliefs.



How do you decide what is good and what is not?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 18, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> How do you decide what is good and what is not?



If you pray and read the Bible for each and every single action you take throughout the day and wait for an answer you certainly do not get much accomplished. If you make a decision on your own based off of any number of things then you know how it works for many of us.

What is good for you might not be good for me. Your idea of a "good" time might be getting together and having a prayer and Bible reading session around a campfire. My idea of a "good" time would include the campfire  and some hunting stories minus the praying and Bible reading. We both would probably scoff at yet another campfire sit with VooDoo being the main event thinking this is "bad" because we are not comfortable with it, have no interest in it, and do not like it. All three scenarios are both good and bad to someone all at the same time. Personal feelings decide it.
You MIGHT pray and search the Bible for an answer to help you decide if you want to attend the VooDoo campfire, I know right off the bat I am not interested.

There are just too many things to be taken as good or bad to make a blanket statement about all of them.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 18, 2013)

And before we go there....
Neither of us walk around offing people at our will. You may not because you do not wish to displease a God and suffer the consequences you believe will happen with him, I do not because I do not want to suffer the consequences here in society, but we both know the thought hasn't passed through our minds at one time or another.

Point is. there are many examples of good and bad and too numerous to cover.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 18, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The founding Fathers made sure religion was kept separate from Gov't. And for good reason.




do You know why they seperated the two>?

the reason is because the gov't laws and the form of a gov't will go against most religious doctrine. 

they don't want the atheist laying claim to religion in order to achieve their goals of capitalism.. 

this is why the Amish and others like them practice not to participate in unholy practices..

we Americans have to live with an evil we have created...

one reason is a statesman shouldn't overly benefit from being in office is because he will choose to capitalize on the people.. we do need a morals committee... cause ours are going away through lack of participation in learning doctrines that are already proven..

i'm a christian and i think they should remove ''in god we trust'' from the money... i'm sure most wouldn't agree with me but if money is considered evil and we believe in God then why put our Gods name on the money.. its being used to promote money... they're using our belief in God to promote money... or i could be wrong and the thought of money is evil.. i'm confused on that one myself..


----------



## drippin' rock (Nov 18, 2013)

I like money.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 18, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> do You know why they seperated the two>?
> 
> the reason is because the gov't laws and the form of a gov't will go against most religious doctrine.
> 
> ...



entertaining


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 18, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> do You know why they seperated the two>?
> 
> the reason is because the gov't laws and the form of a gov't will go against most religious doctrine.
> 
> ...



I have noticed some of Christ's most devout followers live in a socialist community like the Amish. I never thought of Capitalism as being an Atheist society. Those Amish do help each other out and live more as a community. I'll have to think about that.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 18, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It seems like this thread has become the catch all for every topic in AAA.



Maybe so, I'm still trying to figure out what one poster is gettin' at (not you)...... 



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Others, like pigeons playing chess, have to come in here thrashing the board, poohing on it, and trying to degrade anyone who doesn't believe in their imaginary friend as subhuman. They know who they are, too.



I truly believe most agnostics begin their journey with a general disgust of "religious" people.  That is the crack that breaks the dam.

Not sure how long you have been on this particular board to know my background, but I have had it with the religious crowd myself.  However, that did not lead me to abandon my faith as it does so many others.  Instead, it lead me to abandon my traditions.

Either way, imagine being told daily that you play with an imaginary friend, and your entire worldview is based on fairy tales.....somewhat demeaning.  It's is understandable that sometimes the religious will come in here guns a blazin'.  IT takes a while, then they either get bored, tired, or settle into decent discussion.  But, often, we can see why one side's actions are more reaction than anything else if we look in the mirror.  I'm guilty myself.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I can speak about religion with the mature faithful. I haven't the time or patience for pigeons.



YEa, but they are a lot of fun, and they exist on all sides of the belief spectrum.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 18, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I have noticed some of Christ's most devout followers live in a socialist community like the Amish. I never thought of Capitalism as being an Atheist society. Those Amish do help each other out and live more as a community. I'll have to think about that.



In many ways, they sound a lot like the NT church......but, one little known fact, many of those Amish folks have plenty of money.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

look guys it was Veterans Day, and a fellow American Veteran asked me to stand up for God and push back the Devil.. i feel as though i have tryed and i hope i done right by the word of God that was handed down to him..

 NO ATHEIST IN A FOXHOLE, IF THEIR IS HE COMES AROUND REALLY QUICK.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> NO ATHEIST IN A FOXHOLE, IF THEIR IS HE COMES AROUND REALLY QUICK.



This is a myth. There is a long list of atheist in foxholes.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

660griz said:


> This is a myth. There is a long list of atheist in foxholes.



did they not believe in brotherhood?

did they not believe they we're there for the betterment of the world?

did they not believe in morals?

if they did then they we'rent  atheist..

if we don't stand for something we'll fall for anything..


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

atheist only hold value in what benefits them.. do good get good... do bad and get bad... 

we should hold ourselves to a higher standard as Americans... we're carrying the burdens of the world..


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

let me give you my testimony..

i was raised poor really poor i got my arm ran over by a car when i was little and fought,cussed,dipped,drank just whatever i wanted.. i had no mom or dad really... i raised myself to where i am.. i have truly believed in God since i was a teenager.. if my bible says it then it must be true.. why else would my ancestors pointed to it for guidance.. i quit school cause i needed to work.. i had to have money to have anything.. i worked my way up to a good job working for a good company building power lines.. i got married to a loving God fearing woman that truly loves me unconditionally because of the love of God in her heart.. i bought a house when i was 22 years old of my own.. had nice vehicles... had it all.. i got burned on 30% of my body 3rd degree... my little boy was born on the same day i got burned 3 years later.. we have struggled through it all but because i believe in God and Country i still fight each day to continue my fight to lead others into true power.. i wouldn't have survived my accident if i didn't have the strength of God with me to get me through..


----------



## 660griz (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> .. i wouldn't have survived my accident if i didn't have the strength of God with me to get me through..



Didn't even go to the hospital? That is some powerful prayer. Anyway, good story and I, as do many, have similar stories to tell. Whoa is me, blah blah. The only difference is, I dug my self out of a hole without the need for or belief in a higher power.
So, who do I thank for roof over my head, food on the table, etc.? Me!

You like catch phrases. Me too. Here is one for you.
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

are you disabled? if your on s.s.i then you have your American Brothers and Sisters to thank for allowing you to continue to have all that you do..

your right two hands can do more than just a thousand collapsed in prayer but if one hand don't care about what the other one is doing its liable to cut it off... so then you have one hand.. what then can one hand still do the same as two.. so your wrong a thousand people praying are better cause they care what each other is doing and willing to offer up their prayers to make you whole again..


----------



## 660griz (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> are you disabled? if your on s.s.i then you have your American Brothers and Sisters to thank for allowing you to continue to have all that you do..


 Huh? I am not disabled but, I have paid into the ss system since I was 15 and worked since I was 12. Still working hopefully for only another 10 years or so.


> your right two hands can do more than just a thousand collapsed in prayer but if one hand don't care about what the other one is doing its liable to cut it off... so then you have one hand.. what then can one hand still do the same as two.. so your wrong a thousand people praying are better cause they care what each other is doing and willing to offer up their prayers to make you whole again..



Sorry. I have no idea what the above means but, it did make me smile. Spoken like a true believer.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> did they not believe in brotherhood?
> 
> did they not believe they we're there for the betterment of the world?
> 
> ...



It seems as though you have lots of things swirling in your mind but cannot seem to put them together where they fit.
NONE of the above has anything to do with being an Atheist


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> atheist only hold value in what benefits them.. do good get good... do bad and get bad...
> 
> we should hold ourselves to a higher standard as Americans... we're carrying the burdens of the world..



Again, you are wrong and have obviously never taken the time to research it beyond preconceived notions in your own mind.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

660griz said:


> Huh? I am not disabled but, I have paid into the ss system since I was 15 and worked since I was 12. Still working hopefully for only another 10 years or so.
> 
> 
> Sorry. I have no idea what the above means but, it did make me smile. Spoken like a true believer.



listen brother i feel your pain, if you turn it into anger your welcoming the devil into your home...

it means if you only care about your own two hands then when the other is cut off.. wouldn't the other hand miss having it... some of us is just better off not having to work after our burdens have been layed down.. it because they care about us that we have what we have... think about it... for what you draw and are gonna draw... do you think you paid that much in? i'm not against s.s.i. or your place cause i know where your at.. it sucks.. but we still gotta be thankful that the people care enough to see to it we're taken care of...  if they only used they're two hands to get for them then where would we be..

no different then a farmer.. 
we sowed our seeds and gathered our crops when we worked.. now they are out sowing the fields and planting seeds.. if they don't gather some food for us then what then..


----------



## 660griz (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> did they not believe in brotherhood?


 Not sure if they did or not. Wasn't there. 


> did they not believe they we're there for the betterment of the world?


 Depends on a lot of variables. Some have stated they just wanted to survive and help others survive. Not all wars are for the betterment of the world.


> did they not believe in morals?


 Can't speak for them, but I have morals and don't believe in god(s).



> if they did then they we'rent  atheist..


 You making up your own definition of atheist?


> if we don't stand for something we'll fall for anything..



Ooo! Catchphrase!


----------



## 660griz (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> listen brother i feel your pain, if you turn it into anger your welcoming the devil into your home...
> 
> it means if you only care about your own two hands then when the other is cut off.. wouldn't the other hand miss having it... some of us is just better off not having to work after our burdens have been layed down.. it because they care about us that we have what we have... think about it... for what you draw and are gonna draw... do you think you paid that much in? i'm not against s.s.i. or your place cause i know where your at..


 LOL. I really don't think you do. 


> no different then a farmer..
> we sowed our seeds and gathered our crops when we worked.. now they are out sowing the fields and planting seeds.. if they don't gather some food for us then what then..



Gather it myself!


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

660griz said:


> Not sure if they did or not. Wasn't there.
> Depends on a lot of variables. Some have stated they just wanted to survive and help others survive. Not all wars are for the betterment of the world.
> Can't speak for them, but I have morals and don't believe in god(s).
> 
> ...



we'll what is the Atheist morals?

do good get good, do bad get bad..

that sounds like your trying to punish people for being bad.. you know what its like to be young and dumb.. you gonna punish those people or offer up forgiveness? 

you gonna punish the drug addicts,beggars, and thieves?


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 19, 2013)

Dano,

Get some books.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

i mean whats coming to those people who does bad?? 

Are Atheist calling on the power of man? if so we know where that leads.. it leads to famine,disease,pestilence and so forth..


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> atheist only hold value in what benefits them.. do good get good... do bad and get bad...
> 
> we should hold ourselves to a higher standard as Americans... we're carrying the burdens of the world..



I'm trying to figure out your feelings on how believing in any God is better than being an Atheist. Jesus said you are either with me or against me. From that perspective Hindus or Muslims are no better off than Atheist.
You seem to have more of a problem believing Atheist have morals but not Hindus. How did the Hindus get morals from a non existant god but Atheist can't?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Dano,
> 
> Get some books.



Read his testimony........


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm trying to figure out your feelings on how believing in any God is better than being an Atheist. Jesus said you are either with me or against me. From that perspective Hindus or Muslims are no better off than Atheist.
> You seem to have more of a problem believing Atheist have morals but not Hindus. How did the Hindus get morals from a non existant god but Atheist can't?



He does not have a clue what Atheist means but that doesn't stop him from making blanket statements about every Atheist.

We will just include him with the worst example of a Christian we can find and attach that stereotype to him with each reply we give the witch burner, I mean him.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> He does not have a clue what Atheist means but that doesn't stop him from making blanket statements about every Atheist.
> 
> We will just include him with the worst example of a Christian we can find and attach that stereotype to him with each reply we give the witch burner, I mean him.



why say that? are you offering up evil in the form of your tongue..

thanks i will read.. 

no it wasn't the necklace, it was the fact i should have been putting God first all thru my working life but i strayed from my morals and gave into the evils.. i'm not straying from that i love everyone.. so i'm not a witch burner, your welcome here just like anyone.. i wouldn't tell you if i didn't have love in my heart..


----------



## drippin' rock (Nov 19, 2013)

I cut myself the other day when I was chopping onions.  I wonder what that means?


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Read his testimony........




I saw it somewhere else.  I still advocate getting some books; lots of them.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 19, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> How do you decide what is good and what is not?



Nothing you'd recognize, so we sit across the table from each other as equals. I don't recognize your source, and you have chosen to use an alternative to mine. 

Danno has gone off the deep end and called me un-American for not believing, in addition to amoral, and basically worthless, in his eyes, as a human being. 

It goes back to my OP for this thread and how such vile posting can be tolerated, if it comes from the right source, but I posit, what would happen to me if I spoke out against religion with as much venom as he does against us, since he doesn't recognize the difference between atheist and agnostic? 

Yeah, look below.


----------



## Bobby Jackson (Nov 19, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> we'll what is the Atheist morals?
> 
> do good get good, do bad get bad..




Isnt that what you just said in your post?

you went away from your god so he punished you?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 19, 2013)

660griz said:


> This is a myth. There is a long list of atheist in foxholes.



Since agnostics are no different in his mind, I was one of them. 

I've had mortars skitter over my feet without detonating. 

I've had AK rounds snap the air around my head. 

I was the only 1 of 9 convoys in a day to not get blown up, even while spending the night trapped on the side of an Afghani road in a sand storm. 

I've seen guys with Rosary's around their necks chewed to shreds by EFPs. 

I've seen guys who went to church more than they called home obliterated by IEDs. 

I've seen chapels blown to bits by mortars. 

I'm an agnostic, so if someone can please explain how that all works to me, that'd be great. I question the existence of anything every single day of my adult life, and escape scot free. Guys who believe with their entire being suffer the worst around me. 

I have no doubts that the faithful will dogpile this post and say that my survival was the hand of God on me. That still doesn't explain why he would openly slaughter his flock in front of me, that's not a wise shepherd, IMO, who slaughters his heard despite his need to still have them carry the message. 

To anyone who attempts to tell me that this was all the hand of God, know this; you will be asked for PROOF, EVIDENCE, and FACTS, not my anecdotes, to substantiate your claim. Why save the guy who doubts you even exist, and questions it actively with everything he has, to slaughter your believers in such horrible ways?


----------



## drippin' rock (Nov 19, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Nothing you'd recognize, so we sit across the table from each other as equals. I don't recognize your source, and you have chosen to use an alternative to mine.
> 
> Danno has gone off the deep end and called me un-American for not believing, in addition to amoral, and basically worthless, in his eyes, as a human being.
> 
> ...



You probably kick puppies too.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 19, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> You probably kick puppies too.



Don't need a God to tell me that's a bad thing to do. Unless said puppy is 90lbs of rock hard muscle and is coming at me with bared teeth, and then, if all I have left is my foot, he's getting kicked.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 19, 2013)

How hard is it to understand that non-believers also don't subscribe to Karma? 

It's not do good get good, that's the definition of Karma, it's do good and let that goodness ripple through the rest of humanity, and do good just because it is good. There's no expectation of return, quite the opposite, in my case, anyway. 

I do good just because I know it's good, and despite the fact that the universe seems to have laser beams aimed at my man bits and can hit them at a moment's notice.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 19, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> How do you decide what is good and what is not?



I read the Old Testament for that information.  If God did it and also ordered man to do it, it must be good.


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Nothing you'd recognize


Try me.


> I don't recognize your source, and you have chosen to use an alternative to mine.


I don't know what yours is.


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Since agnostics are no different in his mind, I was one of them.
> 
> I've had mortars skitter over my feet without detonating.
> 
> ...


Children of God die too.



> I question the existence of anything every single day of my adult life, and escape scot free. Guys who believe with their entire being suffer the worst around me.


They suffered a bad death on earth, but they were not promised an easy earthly death, they were promised and everlasting eternal life.


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I read the Old Testament for that information.  If God did it and also ordered man to do it, it must be good.



Interesting.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 19, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Try me.
> 
> I don't know what yours is.



I have. We don't agree. You feel that your morals descend from your God and that, without such basis, all else is meaningless. 

My goodness is a product of the decisions I make every day with no more consideration than what they would be perceived like to an outside observer, and those downstream from my decisions. 

Sure, my goodness is relative to the person, but so is yours. Christians have, and continue, to do things that are just as immoral as those without beliefs. People can find just about any excuse they want for them to do things that aren't all that good but benefit themselves, regardless of their position around or on the religion fence posts. Using them to punch holes in my theory is no more credible than they would be for punching holes in your beliefs. 

Morality, like religion, is subjective no matter where you go. Religion, however, tries to self-validate and elevate it's relativism and cast itself as universal truth. I know the limitations of my own morality and I embrace them.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 19, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Children of God die too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks, I am aware of that and I figured, no offense, that this would be in with the responses. 

So my skittering of death is just fluke, then? 

How do you tell the difference?


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I have. We don't agree. You feel that your morals descend from your God and that, without such basis, all else is meaningless.
> 
> My goodness is a product of the decisions I make every day with no more consideration than what they would be perceived like to an outside observer, and those downstream from my decisions.
> 
> ...



So when you say you do "good", you really just mean you do what you think is good and you're not really sure if it's actually good or not?


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 19, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Thanks, I am aware of that and I figured, no offense, that this would be in with the responses.
> 
> So my skittering of death is just fluke, then?
> 
> How do you tell the difference?



How do I tell the difference between what?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Since agnostics are no different in his mind, I was one of them.
> 
> I've had mortars skitter over my feet without detonating.
> 
> ...



You have been there and seen reality. This stuff these other believers are trying to pass off only happens in there own minds. They talk like it is truthful and offer up some nonsense as proof because that is all it takes for them to believe and they think everyone should think just like them. What they cannot comprehend is that someone else can and does think for themselves and that rattles their one tract brains....then you get posts like Dano and SFD provide for us. "I had a bad experience, I lived, = proof of God"


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> What they cannot comprehend is that someone else can and does think for themselves and that rattles their one tract brains....



Interesting thing about people, we often accuse those who don't think/act like us as "less."

I think Dano and SFD believe what they are saying with the same conviction that you don't.  Each has reached a different conclusion based on the evidence at hand.  You, requiring concrete evidence, will reach a different conclusion.

Let me give you a great example.....

I have an assumption that, based on your previous posts about your children and communicating with you for the last few years via the forum and PM's, that you are most likely a great Dad and a good neighbor and person.  I am making this assumption based on very little concrete evidence, and a lot of intuition.  Am I wrong for reaching that conclusion?  Or, am I reaching the best conclusion available to me based on the evidence at hand?

I don't think the fact that I am assuming you are a good dude means I am not a thinker.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Interesting thing about people, we often accuse those who don't think/act like us as "less."
> 
> I think Dano and SFD believe what they are saying with the same conviction that you don't.  Each has reached a different conclusion based on the evidence at hand.  You, requiring concrete evidence, will reach a different conclusion.
> 
> ...



Tell me you think I am a good dude based off of available evidence and that is proof of God and THEN we are closer to how some thinkers go beyond available evidence and insert their own to draw conclusions.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Tell me you think I am a good dude based off of available evidence and that is proof of God and THEN we are closer to how some thinkers go beyond available evidence and insert their own to draw conclusions.



I am not really saying I agree with all of their conclusions....just pointing out that people form conclusions all the time based on weak evidence.

You are a great example.

1. I don't know you are real.  
2. You could be a untruthful even if you are real.

The only thing I have concrete is the words typed here.

With God, the only thing I have concrete is that I am here, and so is "bullethead."

Does that mean that God answered their prayers as they stated,  nope.  It does mean that we all are capable of assuming things, and reaching conclusions, with the best available evidence.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 19, 2013)

You are making the existence of a god an enourmous hurdle where I do not see it as such.  

You are making an "answered prayer" a lack of intellectual thought, but only because you have made the existence of a god an enourmous hurdle.

Not real hard to see how the two paths will differ so much.

For the record, I don't think livin' the good life is evidence of God.  But, I do understand how a person can believe God exists, and gives them a reason to live the good life.....whether you need that reason or not.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I am not really saying I agree with all of their conclusions....just pointing out that people form conclusions all the time based on weak evidence.
> 
> You are a great example.
> 
> ...



How does the highlighted in blue fit?

You and I are concrete. Inserting "with God" does what??


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You are making the existence of a god an enourmous hurdle where I do not see it as such.
> 
> You are making an "answered prayer" a lack of intellectual thought, but only because you have made the existence of a god an enourmous hurdle.
> 
> ...



JB what would be your enormous hurdle? It's not the God you think exists. So what would sound so outrageous to you that you cannot wrap your mind around going along with it?  Is it the concept of another God that someone else is sure exists? Would a non-Godlike Invisible flying dragon do it for you? We exist because IT exists?? It's wings are responsible for wind, it's breath heat, it's heartbeat giving us life and it's band of invisible reptile like friends all contribute to each and every thing we know. If someone could come up with an explanation to link our creation to this dragon and it's friends would it be too much for you to stomach knowing it is all so ridiculous that you just cannot believe ONE person actually believes this? Would you be as willing to accept that my mother in law beat cancer because the scales of the dragon shielded her body from the cancer?

If I linked each and everything posted in here to this dragon and friends, how much could you possibly sit back and take before you called me out on this? If some of my answers almost kinda sorta made sense but most did not and my reply was "my proof is because I am here and you are here therefore the Dragon exists" could you NOT question me about it??


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> How does the highlighted in blue fit?
> 
> You and I are concrete. Inserting "with God" does what??



I am evidence that I came from somewhere, then I walk back from there.....JB0704, ancestors, early life, earth, dust, origins......still concrete......

.....God.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 19, 2013)

bullethead said:


> JB what would be your enormous hurdle? It's not the God you think exists. So what would sound so outrageous to you that you cannot wrap your mind around going along with it?



Infinity.



bullethead said:


> Is it the concept of another God that someone else is sure exists? Would a non-Godlike Invisible flying dragon do it for you? We exist because IT exists?? It's wings are responsible for wind, it's breath heat, it's heartbeat giving us life and it's band of invisible reptile like friends all contribute to each and every thing we know. If someone could come up with an explanation to link our creation to this dragon and it's friends would it be too much for you to stomach knowing it is all so ridiculous that you just cannot believe ONE person actually believes this? Would you be as willing to accept that my mother in law beat cancer because the scales of the dragon shielded her body from the cancer?



You are putting a spin on a concept.  It's muddying the waters really.  The point is that I just walked backwards on a concrete path for you, then made a logical conclusion.

This "which God" stuff is really just arguing over which face belongs to the name, not whether the owner of the name really exists.



bullethead said:


> If I linked each and everything posted in here to this dragon and friends, how much could you possibly sit back and take before you called me out on this? If some of my answers almost kinda sorta made sense but most did not and my reply was "my proof is because I am here and you are here therefore the Dragon exists" could you NOT question me about it??



Honestly, I have discussed faith with folks of all sorts of beliefs.  As long as you believed it, I wouldn't call you out on it.  I would do as I always try to.....listen, and explain why I believe what I do.

I recon I just jumped in on this 'cause it seems it is overlooked that we all make conclusions without "evidence" every day.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I am evidence that I came from somewhere, then I walk back from there.....JB0704, ancestors, early life, earth, dust, origins......still concrete......
> 
> .....God.



I really do not think that you would have come to the conclusion you walk back to now if you had to come up with it on your own. You might get to the point where you think a higher power had something to do with it or "what made the dust", but not likely that you would have come to put together the story you were told as how it was. None of it concrete.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 19, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Infinity.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But the dragon is NOT a God. It is just a life giving dragon.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Infinity.


Infinity for me too.
Like an Infinite God





JB0704 said:


> You are putting a spin on a concept.  It's muddying the waters really.  The point is that I just walked backwards on a concrete path for you, then made a logical conclusion.


But I am a 60yr old Mother of 3 boys, or am I a 44 yr old Father of 3 boys? Maybe I don't have boys at all and I am not married.
You trust the story and do not take the time to check to see what is true.
The religious make up the conclusion and then try to fit a story to it.



JB0704 said:


> This "which God" stuff is really just arguing over which face belongs to the name, not whether the owner of the name really exists.


No, not really, because out of all the examples we have not found one that we can say exists to put any sort of face on.






JB0704 said:


> Honestly, I have discussed faith with folks of all sorts of beliefs.  As long as you believed it, I wouldn't call you out on it.  I would do as I always try to.....listen, and explain why I believe what I do.
> 
> I recon I just jumped in on this 'cause it seems it is overlooked that we all make conclusions without "evidence" every day.


I would be very comfortable to say "some way more than others".


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I really do not think that you would have come to the conclusion you walk back to now if you had to come up with it on your own. You might get to the point where you think a higher power had something to do with it or "what made the dust", but not likely that you would have come to put together the story you were told as how it was.



If you are talking about my Christian faith, then I would agree.  I would not have come up with Jesus on my own most likely.



bullethead said:


> None of it concrete.



  Every single step along the way is concrete until the conclusion.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Infinity for me too.
> Like an Infinite God



Something is infinite.  To me, that concept is incomprehensible, not being restricted by time.  But, I don't see how there is an alternative to either an infinite everything or an infinite something.  Which is the logical basis for a belief that something outside the natural had to kick start the natural, otherwise, we are all infinite in one form or another......incomprehensible.



bullethead said:


> But I am a 60yr old Mother of 3 boys, or am I a 44 yr old Father of 3 boys? Maybe I don't have boys at all and I am not married.
> You trust the story and do not take the time to check to see what is true.
> The religious make up the conclusion and then try to fit a story to it.



No.  I was told about Jesus.  I believe it to be true.  It fits my worldview based on my perceptions of existence.



bullethead said:


> No, not really, because out of all the examples we have not found one that we can say exists to put any sort of face on.



Christianity puts a face on it.



bullethead said:


> I would be very comfortable to say "some way more than others".



Me too.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No.  I was told about Jesus.  I believe it to be true.  It fits my worldview based on my perceptions of existence.
> Christianity puts a face on it.



Perhaps this is the only area of debate. We are going to hit a roadblock when trying to explain the beginnings of the universe and matter. Either you don't know or God did it. 
There is always the, "Yea, but where did THAT come from?" 

You were told about Jesus, I assume this story was handed down and you were just born into a christian family. What about ones not born in a christian family? Born in other countries. They are told about other Gods. 
All the same God? If not, why are they wrong? What evidence is there that either it is the same God or christianity is the one that is correct?


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> You were told about Jesus, I assume this story was handed down and you were just born into a christian family. What about ones not born in a christian family? Born in other countries. They are told about other Gods.
> All the same God? If not, why are they wrong? What evidence is there that either it is the same God or christianity is the one that is correct?




It depends on how you are looking at it.  And this is very tricky ground for me, as it is very difficult to verbalize without sounding like a heretic.  Do I believe there are false gods....sure.  You could build a wooden statue of an elephant, and claim it is god, and it could not be god because it was created.

Also, If there are two gods, and one is "greater" than the other, than there ain't two gods.  

If two people are discussing that which created the universe, and one is sacrificing goats and the other is baptizing kids in this creator's name, they are still both discussing the creator of the universe.....right?  

Let's say I'm an eskimo.  I spend my whole life living in an artctic tundra, and am certain that my universe is the result of a creator......and I call him the "heat maker" and assume he is the sun.  All I am doing is taking the original concept, and envisioning it in a way that fits my reality.....that does not mean that the creator does not exist just because I call him "heat maker" and thinks he's the sun.   

Now, humor me for a moment and assume God exists.

Is the eskimo wrong?  Yes and no.  He is wrong in assuming that the sun is the creator of all because we can scientifically prove that the sun was a created thing.  He is right that there is a creator of all.  His face is wrong, his concept is right.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> So when you say you do "good", you really just mean you do what you think is good and you're not really sure if it's actually good or not?



Remove the Bible, what reference do you have then? 

I use my conscience, yes. Even Christians have one of those, right, or do they just default to the Bible? I also think of the downstream effects, not consequences per se since they're not all inclusive and only about myself, and then how I would perceive someone else engaging in the same activity. 

Since I don't recognize the source of your morality, how can your explanation be met with any more credibility on my end, than my explanations are met on yours?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> How do I tell the difference between what?



My surviving all of my combat experiences as either a fluke stroke of luck, or the hand of God on me keeping me safe.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> It depends on how you are looking at it.


 From the aspect that there are a whole bunch of religions and a whold bunch of other gods, past and present.   



> If two people are discussing that which created the universe, and one is sacrificing goats and the other is baptizing kids in this creator's name, they are still both discussing the creator of the universe.....right?


 Yep. This is the OT vs NT right? 



> Let's say I'm an eskimo.  I spend my whole life living in an artctic tundra, and am certain that my universe is the result of a creator......and I call him the "heat maker" and assume he is the sun.  All I am doing is taking the original concept, and envisioning it in a way that fits my reality.....that does not mean that the creator does not exist just because I call him "heat maker" and thinks he's the sun.
> 
> Now, humor me for a moment and assume God exists.
> 
> Is the eskimo wrong?  Yes and no.  He is wrong in assuming that the sun is the creator of all because we can scientifically prove that the sun was a created thing.  He is right that there is a creator of all.  His face is wrong, his concept is right.



Maybe not. Sun is giver of all life and will probably burn all those on earth one day. I think we have a theory as to how the sun was created. Maybe it has been here the entire time. Maybe it is God. 

What about Allah? Same as the christian God? Allah is said to be the creator of the universe too.


----------



## Bobby Jackson (Nov 20, 2013)

Christianity is a western religion and the chosen religion of this time period..Hasnt always been..wont always be.
Anyone who proclaims it is the only or that ALL others are false just hasn't studied religion very much or is brainwashed(Both)


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> Maybe not. Sun is giver of all life and will probably burn all those on earth one day. I think we have a theory as to how the sun was created. Maybe it has been here the entire time. Maybe it is God.



Nah, it's a star.  We know where they came from.  Cancer kills a bunch of people too.....we have difficulty stopping it, and don't undertand near enough about it, but cancer ain't God either.



660griz said:


> What about Allah? Same as the christian God? Allah is said to be the creator of the universe too.



I believe Islam and Chrisitanity share an origin with Abraham.  From there, I know very little about Islam.  If nothing else, the two seem to have a very different practice relevant to their faith.  I just don't think there can be "multiple Gods," so we often are discussing concepts more than reality when asking "which God."


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> Yep. This is the OT vs NT right?



Yes.  A modern Christian would say "that ain't my god," but it would have to be if the goat killer was just a strict OT observing Jew.  Two very different spins on the very same thing.

And, that's my point.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Every single step along the way is concrete until the conclusion.



I am talking about "the story that told you how it was" as not being concrete.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Also, If there are two gods, and one is "greater" than the other, than there ain't two gods.


How do we know which is the more powerful God without having a book written about the Gods by man?



JB0704 said:


> If two people are discussing that which created the universe, and one is sacrificing goats and the other is baptizing kids in this creator's name, they are still both discussing the creator of the universe.....right?


Discussion about does not automatically make a creator. It is a discussion about the concept of a creator.



JB0704 said:


> Let's say I'm an eskimo.  I spend my whole life living in an artctic tundra, and am certain that my universe is the result of a creator......and I call him the "heat maker" and assume he is the sun.  All I am doing is taking the original concept, and envisioning it in a way that fits my reality.....that does not mean that the creator does not exist just because I call him "heat maker" and thinks he's the sun.


You are overlooking that NO creator has been shown to exist anywhere but in the minds of that Eskimo and in the minds of the people that think it is some other creator. In both cases each party is assuming a Creator and then conjuring up their version of how,who, what it is.




JB0704 said:


> Now, humor me for a moment and assume God exists.
> 
> Is the eskimo wrong?  Yes and no.  He is wrong in assuming that the sun is the creator of all because we can scientifically prove that the sun was a created thing.  He is right that there is a creator of all.  His face is wrong, his concept is right.



Agreed when we have to humor and pretend.
When you say lets assume "God" exists are we defaulting to the God of Abraham in the Christianity version?

In reality everyone that believes in a God assumes their God is the "right" God.
In your scenario the Eskimo is sorta right but not quite as right as your version. And neither have any more proof that one or the other exists, let along is the "right" god.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

ALL we do is assume/humor/pretend/hope there is a God because there is nothing else we can do.
The difference in here is that some people are no longer willing to do those things because they don't see any of them as proof.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> How do we know which is the more powerful God without having a book written about the Gods by man?



You would start with "who created who."

But, we can try a different angle: God, as I understand the term, would be that which created the universe.  And with that definition, could not be rivaled.

I could absolutely worship the wrong thing....a tree for example, which was created, but that would not change who God is.




bullethead said:


> Discussion about does not automatically make a creator. It is a discussion about the concept of a creator.



Yes.



bullethead said:


> You are overlooking that NO creator has been shown to exist anywhere but in the minds of that Eskimo and in the minds of the people that think it is some other creator. In both cases each party is assuming a Creator and then conjuring up their version of how,who, what it is.



Which is why I placed the qualifier "humor me and assume God exists."  The discussion was directly relevant to the question "which God."  You are taking it in another direction...."is there a God."




bullethead said:


> Agreed when we have to humor and pretend.
> When you say lets assume "God" exists are we defaulting to the God of Abraham in the Christianity version?
> 
> In reality everyone that believes in a God assumes their God is the "right" God.
> In your scenario the Eskimo is sorta right but not quite as right as your version. And neither have any more proof that one or the other exists, let along is the "right" god.



No.  The eskimo is wrong if he believes the sun is the "creator of all," but not wrong in assuming there is a "creator of all" if "a creator of all" exists.


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 20, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Remove the Bible, what reference do you have then?


The Holy Spirit. 



> I use my conscience, yes. Even Christians have one of those, right, or do they just default to the Bible? I also think of the downstream effects, not consequences per se since they're not all inclusive and only about myself, and then how I would perceive someone else engaging in the same activity.


Do you think of the conscience as simply a by-product of evolution? If so, why do you think it evolved to make you do good and why are not all humans good, since we all evolved?


----------



## stringmusic (Nov 20, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> My surviving all of my combat experiences as either a fluke stroke of luck, or the hand of God on me keeping me safe.


You survived your combat experiences because you were not hit by anything deadly. I can't tell you why that happened.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> The Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> Do you think of the conscience as simply a by-product of evolution? If so, why do you think it evolved to make you do good and why are not all humans good, since we all evolved?



Regarding the Trinity, again, I don't subscribe to it, so yours has no more basis to me than mine does to you, so we still sit across the table from each other as equals. 

I don't presume to explain why people do good or bad. I have a few theories on the matter, though. 

How conscience arose is none of my concern. I have it, end of story. You might want to ask a neuroscientist about this, though. 

I do subscribe to evolution, but that's an explanation of the how's of change, not always the why's.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You survived your combat experiences because you were not hit by anything deadly. I can't tell you why that happened.



That's a different tack. Most faithful would try to find some rationale for why I would survive and the members of their flock didn't.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, it's a star.  We know where they came from.


 So why are scientist still researching the origin? New research is coming out all the time.  





> Cancer kills a bunch of people too.....we have difficulty stopping it, and don't undertand near enough about it, but cancer ain't God either.


Guess I will have to take your word on that. 



> I just don't think there can be "multiple Gods," so we often are discussing concepts more than reality when asking "which God."



Yea. I do get the whole 'monotheism' thing. Which one counts? Let's say I really want to believe in one. I don't have a God or religion by default. I have to pick one. Which one of them all and why? Another topic I know. Sorry.
Did you choose or was the God picked for you?


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> So why are scientist still researching the origin? New research is coming out all the time.



I think they have elliminated the possibility that our sun created it all.



660griz said:


> Yea. I do get the whole 'monotheism' thing. Which one counts? Let's say I really want to believe in one. I don't have a God or religion by default. I have to pick one. Which one of them all and why? Another topic I know. Sorry.
> Did you choose or was the God picked for you?



I would start with God.  Then, investigate which concept swuares with your logical conclusions.

You are taking it back to the "which god" stuff.

I was born into a Christian home, and am certian that has an awful lot to do with my ability to accept Christianity.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

I have probably said this 100 x's on this board, but, again:

If God exists, then he is God, regardless of what I say or think about him.  

That should elliminate the question as to "which God."


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 20, 2013)

i'm leaving and laying it all aside, and gonna end up where God will have me to lay my burdens down to make a better society for my son.. just walking away now not stopping putting my faith in GOD.. for all of us..


----------



## 660griz (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think they have elliminated the possibility that our sun created it all.


 Another example of where the conversation about God takes a tangent. When christians start throwing around spatterings of there scientific beliefs. You know your God created everything, no one has ever seen God, you KNOW the sun isn't God because science tells you otherwise. 

So, if science could explain it all, you wouldn't believe? 



> I would start with God.  Then, investigate which concept swuares with your logical conclusions.


 Logical conclusions and God. Good stuff. 



> You are taking it back to the "which god" stuff.


You mean my original question? Yes. 



> I was born into a Christian home, and am certian that has an awful lot to do with my ability to accept Christianity.



I guess the quote, “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen F Roberts

Is true.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> Another example of where the conversation about God takes a tangent. When christians start throwing around spatterings of there scientific beliefs. You know your God created everything, no one has ever seen God, you KNOW the sun isn't God because science tells you otherwise.



I KNOW the sun can't be God, because it has an origin, beginning and end.  Additionally, it isn't even the biggest baddest star out there, not even close. 



660griz said:


> So, if science could explain it all, you wouldn't believe?



As in....if science could prove that inanimate matter could come to life, and the universe created itself from nothing?



660griz said:


> Logical conclusions and God. Good stuff.



Well.....much better thinkers than you and I both have come to the same conclusions you and I both have.  Not sure belittling my side does anything for your argument.



660griz said:


> You mean my original question? Yes.



Which has at this point been beaten to death.  We're just gonna go in circles.





660griz said:


> I guess the quote, “I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one less god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.” —Stephen F Roberts
> 
> Is true.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Which has at this point been beaten to death.  We're just gonna go in circles.



Painfully obvious...again.

Unfortunately, the fate of all discussions down here. Fun though.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> Fun though.



Yep


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You would start with "who created who."
> 
> But, we can try a different angle: God, as I understand the term, would be that which created the universe.  And with that definition, could not be rivaled.
> 
> I could absolutely worship the wrong thing....a tree for example, which was created, but that would not change who God is.




Or you might be a flea and think that the dog is god because you don't know anything about the leash and the human holding the leash.  The God of Abraham might be the "dog" in that scenario and there's a bigger, badder being holding and leading the dog; maybe Vishnu.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Or you might be a flea and think that the dog is god because you don't know anything about the leash and the human holding the leash.  The God of Abraham might be the "dog" in that scenario and there's a bigger, badder being holding and leading the dog; maybe Vishnu.



You are focusing on a name.  The god of Abraham is the creator of everything......or he isn't the God of Abraham.  Think about it.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You are focusing on a name.  The god of Abraham is the creator of everything......or he isn't the God of Abraham.  Think about it.



But the point remains. Other religions hold their God up as the creator of everything, and they aren't the God of Abraham, per se. 

Unless you're of the mindset that all religions are speaking the same story in different languages...


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> But the point remains. Other religions hold their God up as the creator of everything, and they aren't the God of Abraham, per se.



Then we are discussing differences in religion, not different Gods.  There can only be one, unless there is a whole team of equals up there throwing some logical loops in the mix.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Unless you're of the mindset that all religions are speaking the same story in different languages...



I think those who start with the same concept start at the same place, and then go in all kinds of different directions from there.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 20, 2013)

why aren't you willing to walk away and give it all up?

why aren't you willing to give it all up a family, house,cars,cares, and just walk away? try it,, thats what the people who founded this country did.. think about it, they left home,family,jobs and all just to come here.. not for they're gain but just to follow wherever the road might lead..


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Then we are discussing differences in religion, not different Gods.  There can only be one, unless there is a whole team of equals up there throwing some logical loops in the mix.
> 
> So Buddha, or Shiva, or one of the South American ones I can't pronounce let alone spell, are all interchangeable with the God of Christianity? That's the only way, I see it, that you could be discussing the same God with the only difference being religion.
> 
> ...



Yep.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> why aren't you willing to walk away and give it all up?
> 
> why aren't you willing to give it all up a family, house,cars,cares, and just walk away? try it,, thats what the people who founded this country did.. think about it, they left home,family,jobs and all just to come here.. not for they're gain but just to follow wherever the road might lead..



Why aren't you willing to be intelligible? 

What's your point with this nonsense?


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Yep.




Let's say I am holding an apple, I call it an apple, and you call it an egg.....what is it?

It will never produce little chickens like you say, it doesn't have a white exterior like you say, nor does it have a hard shell.  Instead, it has a red skin, will produce fruit, is not a protein.

One of us can be very, very wrong about it, but still be talking about the same thing.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 20, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> why aren't you willing to walk away and give it all up?
> 
> why aren't you willing to give it all up a family, house,cars,cares, and just walk away? try it,, thats what the people who founded this country did.. think about it, they left home,family,jobs and all just to come here.. not for they're gain but just to follow wherever the road might lead..



I think it was for freedom, from religion or, of religion, depends on who ya ask.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Let's say I am holding an apple, I call it an apple, and you call it an egg.....what is it?
> 
> It will never produce little chickens like you say, it doesn't have a white exterior like you say, nor does it have a hard shell.  Instead, it has a red skin, will produce fruit, is not a protein.
> 
> One of us can be very, very wrong about it, but still be talking about the same thing.



But neither of you, in that example, can hold up one or the other as truth, because neither of you can actually see it, or be certain of it, with 100% certainty. 

Still, in your example, you are talking different objects, and therefore different gods. If the difference was religion, IE language, it would be holding up a potato to an American and a Frenchman. 

The American would call it a potato. 

The Frenchman would call it a pommes-de-terre. Literally translated as "apple of the earth". Both names apply to the same object, but differ greatly in connotation. 

So again, it comes down to it that the Hindu's, or the South Americans, or Buddhists, hold that their God is different than yours, and likely yours from them. That's not something that's lost in translation, that's something that's lost because there is nothing concrete upon which to universally base it.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 20, 2013)

660griz said:


> I think it was for freedom, from religion or, of religion, depends on who ya ask.



your right and thanks for listening,, i couldn't imagine what those poor people went thru not knowing nothing about where they we're headed but following God.. how else are you born again? otherwise we tend to hold onto our worldly possessions and become stuck in a endless mindless cycle of destruction of ourselfs..


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> But neither of you, in that example, can hold up one or the other as truth, because neither of you can actually see it, or be certain of it, with 100% certainty.



No.  But, that's not the point.




StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So again, it comes down to it that the Hindu's, or the South Americans, or Buddhists, hold that their God is different than yours, and likely yours from them. That's not something that's lost in translation, that's something that's lost because there is nothing concrete upon which to universally base it.



The point is that to the object, it has no relevance what I see, you see, or anybody else sees.  It is what it is.

Can there be more than one God if God is the creator of all?


----------



## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Can there be more than one God if God is the creator of all?



We are arguing/discussing complete hypothetical subjects here.
OF course in a world of make believe the one god that made all others is the ultimate god. Referring to him as God the Creator of All still does not narrow it down to any specific one. Saying God seems to imply the God of Abraham and that is really giving him the benefit of doubt when there are so many called God.
If we want to try to figure that out in the real world we have to establish that even one God exists, then we have to define him, figure out what he is called and find out just what his responsibilities and capabilities are, then move on to the next one. And on and on and on. Then compare. We cannot put one at the top and work backwards.


----------



## JB0704 (Nov 20, 2013)

bullethead said:


> We are arguing/discussing complete hypothetical subjects here.



Yes.



bullethead said:


> OF course in a world of make believe the one god that made all others is the ultimate god.



And, thank you.



bullethead said:


> Referring to him as God the Creator of All still does not narrow it down to any specific one.



It narrows it down to God.



bullethead said:


> If we want to try to figure that out in the real world we have to establish that even one God exists,



That's really what the whole debate is.



bullethead said:


> then we have to define him, figure out what he is called and find out just what his responsibilities and capabilities are, then move on to the next one. And on and on and on. Then compare. We cannot put one at the top and work backwards.



^^^^There's where religion comes in.


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## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ^^^^There's where religion comes in.



If it is putting one at the top and working backwards then I agree.


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## bullethead (Nov 20, 2013)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God
Leaves the door wide open.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Or you might be a flea and think that the dog is god because you don't know anything about the leash and the human holding the leash.  The God of Abraham might be the "dog" in that scenario and there's a bigger, badder being holding and leading the dog; maybe Vishnu.



I've never thought about the dog & flea scenario but what if the Earth is an electron orbiting a nucleus/sun of an atom. The atom being our solar system in a molecular universe?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 20, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> why aren't you willing to walk away and give it all up?
> 
> why aren't you willing to give it all up a family, house,cars,cares, and just walk away? try it,, thats what the people who founded this country did.. think about it, they left home,family,jobs and all just to come here.. not for they're gain but just to follow wherever the road might lead..



We did have that same discussion on one of the religious forums. We were discussing what exactly God wanted us to give up to to follow him as disciples. The original apostles did leave their families. It is true the early settlers and emigrants left family members to start a new life in America, they usually took their immediate family. Either way was a great sacrifice.


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## Joe of Dirt (Nov 20, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> Why aren't you willing to walk away and give it all up?
> 
> Why aren't you willing to give it all up a family, house,cars, cares, and just walk away?  Try it,, that's what the people who founded this country did.. think about it, they left home, family, jobs and all just to come here.. not for they're gain but just to follow wherever the road might lead..


  (fixed your "texting", to make it more legible.  )

Actually, it wasn't merely that - it was *greed* (the biggest factor in forming this country - the genocide that followed, and what made this country so "huge"...greed.  Not just freedom from organized and forced religion.  Not just the hope of something good.

But greed.  A very, very non-Christian thingy.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

Joe of Dirt said:


> But greed.  A very, very non-Christian thingy.



Greed is a subjective term.  One man's greed is another's productivity.

Greed, loosley defined, is the reason you had a computer to type your response with.  Greed, strictly defined, is certainly an unchristian characteristic.  But, it's not for you or anyone else to regulate another man's greed.....then you are just legislating morality.

God bless 'Murica!!


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No.  But, that's not the point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Can there, sure, I don't see why not, but then again I'm also an imperfect human that is speculating about things way above his paygrade. It would be foolhardy for me to say anything for certain. 

That is the core reason why I am an agnostic. 

I don't know, and can't, anything about God for certain. I can know things about religion, since that's equally about the ritual and rites as it is about the faith, but have 0 chance of peeking behind the veil. 

Yes, the egg in your example is what it is, but there's a veil of complete opaqueness between it and you, and it and me, and it and everyone else. People essentially think that they can know what's going on behind it by the way it ruffles as we observe it. We can observe the veil, sure, but we have no clue what is going on behind it.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

String, if you happen to see this, I realized on my way in this morning that my choice of words to you over the last couple of days might not have been the best. 

When I said that my source of morality wasn't something that you would recognize, I realized that this could be taken as you being incapable of comprehending it. That's not what I meant and if it came across that way please accept my apology. 

The complete statement was that it is nothing that you would recognize _as valid in comparison to your belief that morality is descendent from your view of the Creator._


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Greed is a subjective term.  One man's greed is another's productivity.
> 
> Greed, loosley defined, is the reason you had a computer to type your response with.  Greed, strictly defined, is certainly an unchristian characteristic.  But, it's not for you or anyone else to regulate another man's greed.....then you are just legislating morality.
> 
> God bless 'Murica!!



There's hunger, and then there's greed. 

I take the Carlin stance on the Commandments, that many are redundant. 

Gluttony, lust, and greed are basically interchangeable because they all represent the same thing, an inability to control your baser instincts despite the impact they would have on others and yourself.

Just my .02


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## ambush80 (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Then we are discussing differences in religion, not different Gods.  There can only be one, unless there is a whole team of equals up there throwing some logical loops in the mix.
> 
> 
> 
> I think those who start with the same concept start at the same place, and then go in all kinds of different directions from there.



Why not seriously consider that possibility?


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## ambush80 (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You are focusing on a name.  The god of Abraham is the creator of everything......or he isn't the God of Abraham.  Think about it.



My point is that you don't know about any other god than the one that you conceive of.  He may have a boss that you don't know about because that's how their organization works.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> My point is that you don't know about any other god than the one that you conceive of.  He may have a boss that you don't know about because that's how their organization works.



Then, the boss is actually God.


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Then, the boss is actually God.



So then for the sake of this conversation you would admit that it is possible the god you believe in and worship might not be the only god. There could be a more powerful god unbeknownst to you. Or there could be multiple gods some more powerful than others but none more powerful than all and they all work together to get things done. In the hierarchy of the tens of thousands of gods that have been known to man and worshiped there is a possibility that there is one god that even among gods reins supreme and THAT god would be called GOD, even to the other gods.
Does that about sum it up?


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So then for the sake of this conversation you would admit that it is possible the god you believe in and worship might not be the only god. There could be a more powerful god unbeknownst to you. Or there could be multiple gods some more powerful than others but none more powerful than all and they all work together to get things done. In the hierarchy of the tens of thousands of gods that have been known to man and worshiped there is a possibility that there is one god that even among gods reins supreme and THAT god would be called GOD, even to the other gods.
> Does that about sum it up?



The God I worship is the creator of all.....thats the concept.  You can't say I worship the creator of all, but he is actually just the creator of this.....then, the "sub-creator" is not the concept I worship.  

What you are talking about is this:

Jim worships "Bill," the blue legged spider in the sky.  Jim assumes "Bill" is supreme because he has heard tales of "Bill" creating a mountain.

Nowhere in that scenario is Jim saying Bill is the supreme being.  He is just worshipping the thing that made the mountain.


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## ambush80 (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Then, the boss is actually God.





JB0704 said:


> The God I worship is the creator of all.....thats the concept.  You can't say I worship the creator of all, but he is actually just the creator of this.....then, the "sub-creator" is not the concept I worship.
> 
> What you are talking about is this:
> 
> ...



Assuming completely that the god of the Bible is real, he may just be a middle manager in charge of the physical world and whatever dimension Heaven and He11 are in.  You may not even be capable of grasping the "boss" even if he was standing in front of you.  He may operate in some OTHER, other dimension in which case you don't really know the truth.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Assuming completely that the god of the Bible is real, he may just be a middle manager in charge of the physical world and whatever dimension Heaven and He11 are in.  You may not even be capable of grasping the "boss" even if he was standing in front of you.  He may operate in some OTHER, other dimension in which case you don't really know the truth.




Is there that much wiggle room with the concept of God described in the Bible? 

The Bible could be completely wrong and it would have no effect on the God described in the Bible.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> *The Bible could be completely wrong* and *it would have no effect on the God described in the Bible.*



Whut? Read this again, slowly. 

So the God described in the Bible isn't detailed the way that They actually exist and there's no effect?


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Whut? Read this again, slowly.



I would suggest the same to you.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So the God described in the Bible isn't detailed the way that They actually exist and there's no effect?



How could an incorrect document have any impact on a universal creator?


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I would suggest the same to you.
> 
> 
> 
> How could an incorrect document have any impact on a universal creator?



Perpetuating the myth that one exists at all, where there is no proof of one. Just for one example.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

And my point there, wasn't to insult. My point was the shape drawn by the sentence. A circle. 

If the Bible is wrong, and the Bible describes God, then God could be described incorrectly, too, right? Your statement ignored that possibility and held the God part of the Bible as separate from the Bible.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Perpetuating the myth that one exists at all, where there is no proof of one. Just for one example.



Even then, it could not have any impact.  If it does not exist, then no harm done.  If it does exist, then no harm possible.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And my point there, wasn't to insult. My point was the shape drawn by the sentence. A circle.
> 
> If the Bible is wrong, and the Bible describes God, then God could be described incorrectly, too, right? Your statement ignored that possibility and held the God part of the Bible as separate from the Bible.



The statement assumes a universal creator exists.  

God's existence does not depend on my or your or the Bible's or the Koran's or anybody or anythings description of him.  He is either there, or he ain't.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The statement assumes a universal creator exists.
> 
> God's existence does not depend on my or your or the Bible's or the Koran's or anybody or anythings description of him.  He is either there, or he ain't.



Ok, fair point, and that's all that I wanted to make sure we were square about. That His/Their existence is unaffected by our perceptions. Now, Their perceptions of us are greatly affected by our perceptions of them, I would think. 

Since the first commandment says that whole thing about strange God's, and all.


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The God I worship is the creator of all.....thats the concept.  You can't say I worship the creator of all, but he is actually just the creator of this.....then, the "sub-creator" is not the concept I worship.
> 
> What you are talking about is this:
> 
> ...



I don't agree with the "Jim and Bill" analogy but that doesn't matter.

I am just intrigued that you are counting on that you got the "right" god. It doesn't matter if the story in the Bible is right about that god or not(agreed), it doesn't matter that the rules in the Bible are right or not(agreed), in the end no matter what is said or written You worship the Creator of all creation no matter what he is called. Fair enough.
I agree that IF there is such a god then it would be the supreme god as it is the creator of all the other gods too. Then I would question if I was doing it any justice by worshiping it properly by getting hung up on what the Bible may wrongly be telling me to do.


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## 660griz (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Then I would question if I was doing it any justice by worshiping it properly by getting hung up on what the Bible may wrongly be telling me to do.



And how would you worship a God that created everything and hasn't asked for anything?  Would that God even need or want to be worshiped? 
Probably just a simple, "Thanks God. 'Preciate ya."


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

660griz said:


> And how would you worship a God that created everything and hasn't asked for anything?  Would that God even need or want to be worshiped?
> Probably just a simple, "Thanks God. 'Preciate ya."



660griz i think you we're born as the right hand of god and its so instilled in you that you don't even realize it no more.. that its so simple for you to be thankful, perhaps not athiest but a moral and just man..

just don't let it go to your head...


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Ok, fair point, and that's all that I wanted to make sure we were square about. That His/Their existence is unaffected by our perceptions. Now, Their perceptions of us are greatly affected by our perceptions of them, I would think.



 Maybe so.



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Since the first commandment says that whole thing about strange God's, and all.



There's a lot to that one.  At the time, folks were building golden statues.  Then there is also the concept that it is basically saying "nothing above".....could be money, work, friends, family, all sorts of stuff. 

One thing that is often discussed in Christian circles is the idea of worshipping things through actions, if not thought.  Such as being devoted to pursuits that are not "God centered."


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I agree that IF there is such a god then it would be the supreme god as it is the creator of all the other gods too. Then I would question if I was doing it any justice by worshiping it properly by getting hung up on what the Bible may wrongly be telling me to do.



That's where faith/religion comes in.  I have faith in Jesus.  Jesus is in the Bible.  I let the Bible be my guide.

But, you could absolutely disprove everything ever written in the Bible, and I would still believe in God.  It's a top down view of faith, instead of starting with the Bible and working up.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

thats why your so angry is cause you know the burdens of the world, you know the injustice,, its plain for us to see..

i have nothing against moral atheist no more.. i see how its designed..


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Maybe so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



As a former Catholic I've had many discussions on the nature of idolatry, considering so many works of art representing Holy figures adorn even the poorest parish. 

It's a far cry from praying in the direction of a statue of the Virgin Mary, or Jesus, than it is to be praying TO the statue of the Virgin Mary. 

What constitutes an idol? It depends who you ask because the connotation is a lot less clear than the definition. 

A representation or symbol of an object of worship. The crucifix on so many a neck, the fish on so many a car, the stained glass in many a church. They all represent objects of worship, either by direct acts or by representing miracles that are supposed to display God's power on Earth. 

In the strictest sense of the word it can then be said that any object of a religious nature could be considered an idol, and any coveting of the same could be considered idolatry. 

Still, that's not even addressing the interpretation of the 1C. I took it to mean that God shall have the first place in your heart and mind, and nothing else. So the objects, so long as they don't precede God in order of worship, are harmless. 

The statement on God centered is a good one. It goes right back to the nature of the communication between God and his flock. Indirectly, and through the imperfect word of man. 

It's like playing that game where you whisper a phrase into someone's ear and pass it down the chain of people until you get to the end. It's never the same message at the end, except in this case, each person is using their own metaphors to represent what they just heard, and are translating from dead language to living, and from living to living, where euphemism and translation aren't always exact. There's a lot of room for error where it comes to what God's true message is, and what it would mean for your actions to be God centered, without lots of supposition and assumption. 

It's a very blind shot in the dark that many, ahem, on this board hold up as universal truth.


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> thats why your so angry is cause you know the burdens of the world, you know the injustice,, its plain for us to see..
> 
> i have nothing against moral atheist no more.. i see how its designed..



Are you doing a skit?


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> That's where faith/religion comes in.  I have faith in Jesus.  Jesus is in the Bible.  I let the Bible be my guide.
> 
> But, you could absolutely disprove everything ever written in the Bible, and I would still believe in God.  It's a top down view of faith, instead of starting with the Bible and working up.



So then for you the Bible has to be right.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So then for you the Bible has to be right.



No, not really.  If it is wrong, then I still beleive in God.  I would just have to rethink my Christianity.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No, not really.  If it is wrong, then I still beleive in God.  I would just have to rethink my Christianity.



What, then, would you base your morality upon?


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Are you doing a skit?





He comes across to me as somebody who has had a recent revival of sorts, and is throwing it all out there.....gotta appreciate the dedication.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> What, then, would you base your morality upon?



Good question.....I recon the golden rule would still apply.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Good question.....I recon the golden rule would still apply.



Can the Golden Rule still exist for you without it being a cornerstone in the Bible? That's the real question.


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> He comes across to me as somebody who has had a recent revival of sorts, and is throwing it all out there.....gotta appreciate the dedication.



That's one way to phrase it. I can think of 3 others. 

Filling the air with shot in the hopes of hitting one bird is another.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Can the Golden Rule still exist for you without it being a cornerstone in the Bible? That's the real question.



Yes.  If universally applied, we would all be free.

But, it is in the Bible, and is also evidence that there are a few nuggets contained therein (I am aware of other references to the golden rule).


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> No, not really.  If it is wrong, then I still beleive in God.  I would just have to rethink my Christianity.



So your open to the idea that the whole NT concept about the Son of God could be wrong and the whole OT concept of God could be wrong but your still sure there is a God. 

I get that you 100% believe in the God responsible for all creation.

How would you honor/worship God if you found out everything written by man to this point is incorrect? Would you wait for a sign or instructions and/or do what you think would please God in the meantime?


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> So your open to the idea that the whole NT concept about the Son of God could be wrong and the whole OT concept of God could be wrong but your still sure there is a God.



"Open" is not exactly how I would phrase it.

I don't believe I  am wrong about the Bible, but I am certain that I believe in God in the event that I was.



bullethead said:


> How would you honor/worship God if you found out everything written by man to this point is incorrect? Would you wait for a sign or instructions and/or do what you think would please God in the meantime?



No clue.  My best guess is that I would continue approaching life as a gift, and lived in a way that expressed gratitude.


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> "Open" is not exactly how I would phrase it.
> 
> I don't believe I  am wrong about the Bible, but I am certain that I believe in God in the event that I was.



How would know him if you didn't choose one of the many worldly versions of what man says about him?





JB0704 said:


> No clue.  My best guess is that I would continue approaching life as a gift, and lived in a way that expressed gratitude.



Now you have cracked the door and are getting a peek into what many non believers do each and every day.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> How would know him if you didn't choose one of the many worldly versions of what man says about him?



Through his creation.



bullethead said:


> Now you have cracked the door and are getting a peek into what many non believers do each and every day.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Are you doing a skit?



no brother i'll never push my religion again, i see the reason now.. i see your coming and hells coming with you.. its okay there is a reason.. just put the fear of god in me when you come.. i'm with you...


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> no brother i'll never push my religion again, i see the reason now.. i see your coming and hells coming with you.. its okay there is a reason.. just put the fear of god in me when you come.. i'm with you...




If I'm coming I'll bring you a good ol case of Yuengling Lager from Pa and leave hells where it's at.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

come on son '' don't tread on me is your flag''


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## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> come on son '' don't tread on me is your flag''



Yeah I forgot how close we are and how well you know me. Whats it been 20 posts and now your sending me love songs from the man in black.


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## JB0704 (Nov 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> If I'm coming I'll bring you a good ol case of Yuengling Lager from Pa and leave hells where it's at.



They sell that in Ga now.....and it's a good thing, 'cause it used to be that every time I went to PA I would have to bring a few cases back home to GA with me.


----------



## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> They sell that in Ga now.....and it's a good thing, 'cause it used to be that every time I went to PA I would have to bring a few cases back home to GA with me.



The Brewery is 17miles from me. Lucky if I drink 3 cases of any type of beer in a years time but the Lager is good and it makes for a good gift.


----------



## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

i can't explain why brother all i done is what he asked,, they might come for me i don't know.. oh buy just as much beer as you can..


----------



## bullethead (Nov 21, 2013)

1222DANO said:


> i can't explain why brother all i done is what he asked,, they might come for me i don't know.. oh buy just as much beer as you can..



Seriously, when you get the time try to clue us all in on just what the heck you are talking about.


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

read my testimony,,,,,


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## 1222DANO (Nov 21, 2013)

they don't call us country for no reason.. lol
don't do nothing stupid though,,, please


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## StriperrHunterr (Nov 22, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.  If universally applied, we would all be free.
> 
> But, it is in the Bible, and is also evidence that there are a few nuggets contained therein (I am aware of other references to the golden rule).



That universality is the entire problem. Religion is a very specific language, and one people feel passionately about. 

So, how do you get the Frenchman and the Englishman, to drop their pride and speak on common terms? You basically get them to go to Switzerland and do it on neutral terms. 

Essentially, if you strip the religion out of the morality you can find common ground with almost anyone, on almost anything, and the ones that are left out are those who would violate it no matter where it came from. IMO. 

I have no qualms about the Bible being treated as parable and the core lessons being taken to heart, like helping the less fortunate, the Golden Rule, and some others. It's a great story and has some great suggestions on how to be a good person. Anything further than that I leave to the believers.


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## ambush80 (Nov 22, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That universality is the entire problem. Religion is a very specific language, and one people feel passionately about.
> 
> So, how do you get the Frenchman and the Englishman, to drop their pride and speak on common terms? You basically get them to go to Switzerland and do it on neutral terms.
> 
> ...




Amen and amen.


----------

