# Oldest artfacts so far



## KentuckyHeadhunter (Sep 1, 2019)

Very interesting find in Idaho.  It appears stemmed points pre-dated the Clovis points in this case.  How deep will it go?

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/culture/2019/08/coopers-landing-idaho-site-americas-oldest/


----------



## Nicodemus (Sep 1, 2019)

That`s interesting. I still think as we learn more about the Solutreans, we will find out that occupation on this continent will be pushed many thousands of years further back into prehistory. And the race of these people will be a shocker to many. And a heartbreak to many.


----------



## Sixes (Sep 1, 2019)

I wish it would of shown examples to see the differences instead of going on carbon dating


----------



## KentuckyHeadhunter (Sep 1, 2019)

Hey Sixes if you Google image search Cooper's Ferry artifacts you will get some images.  The points remind me of Adena contracting or vanishing stem points.


----------



## KentuckyHeadhunter (Sep 1, 2019)

Here is a Clovis compared to a point that is possibly 3 thousand years older.


----------



## Sixes (Sep 1, 2019)

Thanks for the pic, no similarities at all.

They favor Solutrean points.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Sep 2, 2019)

The archaeologists are so locked into the Clovis-first theory that they immediately discount anything that goes against it. The Topper Site in SC, Meadowcroft in PA, Cactus Hill in VA, are all pre-Clovis sites that have been bashed by the closed-minded elites. 

They did the same thing for a long time refusing to believe that people were here in the Pleistocene times. All the prevailing theories gave humans 200-3000 years in the Ameica at most. All the first finds of mammoth kill sites and such were discounted offhand by Hrdlicka and his cronies who ran the American archaeological community. It took the folks at the Folsom site sticking to their guns and almost forcefully bringing the big boys in to witness what could not be refuted -fluted Folsom points imbedded in situ in extinct bison-before it was accepted that there were Ice-age people here. I think people have been here for a long, long time. Many different races of folks, to boot.


----------



## Philhutch80 (Oct 24, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> The archaeologists are so locked into the Clovis-first theory that they immediately discount anything that goes against it. The Topper Site in SC, Meadowcroft in PA, Cactus Hill in VA, are all pre-Clovis sites that have been bashed by the closed-minded elites.
> 
> They did the same thing for a long time refusing to believe that people were here in the Pleistocene times. All the prevailing theories gave humans 200-3000 years in the Ameica at most. All the first finds of mammoth kill sites and such were discounted offhand by Hrdlicka and his cronies who ran the American archaeological community. It took the folks at the Folsom site sticking to their guns and almost forcefully bringing the big boys in to witness what could not be refuted -fluted Folsom points imbedded in situ in extinct bison-before it was accepted that there were Ice-age people here. I think people have been here for a long, long time. Many different races of folks, to boot.



Classic uniformitarianism way of thinking in academia today. It is unfortunate that their ego's are so large they cannot have their theories questioned. Are you a fan of Randall Carlson by chance?


----------



## QSVC (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm a big Graham Hancock/Randall Carlson fan. Laugh all you want but they are fact-based, compelling and vindicated by new finds each and every year. If they are even 1% right the entire human record in N. America is upended. EG: Hancock's book, America Before, published earlier this year talks about the significance of Moundville, AL site and its connections to for ancient mythology. I ran into an archaeologist just now researching this a few months ago and everything she said is basically what's in the book. She'd never heard of it.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 24, 2019)

Philhutch80 said:


> Classic uniformitarianism way of thinking in academia today. It is unfortunate that their ego's are so large they cannot have their theories questioned. Are you a fan of Randall Carlson by chance?


Not so much. He has some interesting theories, but a lot of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I find Graham Hancock to be more interesting. I don't agree with a lot of their thinking, but some of it makes sense for sure. I think it's dangerous to get locked into any mindset. Guys like that keep the speculation going, and may very well be right on some or more than some things. There is a whole lot that we don't know, and probably a lot that we think we know but don't.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 24, 2019)

I do tend to agree quite strongly with Bruce Bradley and Dennis Stanford and their theories.


----------



## Philhutch80 (Oct 24, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Not so much. He has some interesting theories, but a lot of it needs to be taken with a grain of salt. I find Graham Hancock to be more interesting. I don't agree with a lot of their thinking, but some of it makes sense for sure. I think it's dangerous to get locked into any mindset. Guys like that keep the speculation going, and may very well be right on some or more than some things. There is a whole lot that we don't know, and probably a lot that we think we know but don't.



It's funny that you mention Graham as I think Randall's theories are more concrete than some of what Graham has proposed. I do like to listen to all sides though and their points (no pun intended) about the Clovis people and how it ties in with the Younger Dryas events are very interesting when compared with some other geologist's theories from out west. I try to question everything and put an amalgum of their thoughts and more mainstream theories together.


----------



## Philhutch80 (Oct 24, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I do tend to agree quite strongly with Bruce Bradley and Dennis Stanford and their theories.



Those are two additional folks I have been told I need to research myself. If you have some recommended reading I am all ears.


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 24, 2019)

Philhutch80 said:


> Those are two additional folks I have been told I need to research myself. If you have some recommended reading I am all ears.




Here`s one for starters.

https://www.amazon.com/Search-Ice-Age-Americans/dp/1586850210


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 24, 2019)

Philhutch80 said:


> Those are two additional folks I have been told I need to research myself. If you have some recommended reading I am all ears.


Dr. Bradley has a website with a bunch of info and links on it. One book I find quite interesting that deals more with the lithic aspect of the Paleo peoples is Bob Patton's _Peoples of the Flute._


----------



## Philhutch80 (Oct 24, 2019)

This thread turned into a gem of information sharing. Thank you gentlemen for giving me some other avenues to explore. Do either of you enjoy the Youtubes for some of the varying information? 
One thing I have wanted to speak with some geologist about as well as Randall is how Georgia got some of it's hanging valleys it has. There are very few but if you know where to look, they are there. Would like  to go hunt for points up hill from some of these areas as well as downstream where water would have slowed down.


----------



## QSVC (Oct 24, 2019)

Here's the first (I believe) Joe Rogan podcast with the 2 of them. 






If you can listen to that and not be intrigued at least I don't know what to do for you.


----------



## Bigga Trust (Oct 24, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> That`s interesting. I still think as we learn more about the Solutreans, we will find out that occupation on this continent will be pushed many thousands of years further back into prehistory. And the race of these people will be a shocker to many. And a heartbreak to many.



A majority of archaeologists and anthropologists reject the Solutrean "hypothesis".  It doesn't fit their world view and not politically correct.  If this was proved with indisputable evidence, you would see Govt public schools drop any curriculum regarding ancient America like hot pow wow chow.


----------



## Philhutch80 (Oct 24, 2019)

QSVC said:


> Here's the first (I believe) Joe Rogan podcast with the 2 of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I’ve watched all of those as well as Randall’s Geocosmicrex YouTube channel. I also follow the Central Washington U’s channel. Nick Zetner is the geologist there. Interesting hearing how vastly these theories differ yet how much more concrete Randall’s theories are starting to be accepted as a result. Great stuff. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 25, 2019)

Scott Silsby once showed me an almost classic Solutrean laurel leaf point that was dredged up off the coast of Virginia by a fishing net or some such (in an area that would have been dry land during the Pleistocene.) It was made from high-grade Pennsylvania rhyolite.


----------



## QSVC (Oct 25, 2019)

The best part of that podcast for me is the vast astronomical and terrestrial mathematical and geometric knowledge built into the great pyramid.
It actually, among other things, has embedded in it the dimensions of our planet. If you measure the base perimeter (in cubits) of the Great Pyramid and multiply it by 43,200 and you get the approximate circumference of the earth in those same units. If you take the height of the Great Pyramid multiply that by 43,200 and you get the polar radius of the Earth.

The significance of 43,200 is it's a number that is found embedded in mythology all around the world and it is a multiple of the number 72; 72 is the heartbeat of the processional cycle of the equinoxes (the earth wobbling on its axis) which amounts to one degree of change every 72 years so what they've actually done is given us the dimensions of our planet on a scale defined by the motion of the planet itself and done so via one of the most enduring structures ever built by human beings. Pretty smart way to pass information down through the ages to the next astronomically literate civilization.

This is readily agreed to by mainstream science because it's basically just math and they can't just mumble it away however it's written off as coincidence. That's a heck of a coincidence.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 25, 2019)

I think the Old Ones knew a lot more than we give them credit for. And traveled a lot wider, too.


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 25, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> Scott Silsby once showed me an almost classic Solutrean laurel leaf point that was dredged up off the coast of Virginia by a fishing net or some such (in an area that would have been dry land during the Pleistocene.) It was made from high-grade Pennsylvania rhyolite.




The Late Dr, Kenny Waldrop showed me a classic Laurel Leaf he found in the Muckalee Creek here in Lee County. It was about 11 inches long and of a blue gray material I haven`t ever seen before and definitely not from around here. That blade was a beauty with exceptional workmanship. I`ve seen some magnificent Paleo artifacts, but never anything like this. I was a nervous wreck just holding it.


----------



## fishfryer (Oct 25, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think the Old Ones knew a lot more than we give them credit for. And traveled a lot wider, too.


I haven't done the vast research to back up a credible argument but, I am convinced that many different types of people visited and possibly colonized this country before the current theories say they did. Men of ancient times were absolutely as smart as we think we are. In the world they lived in, infinitely smarter.


----------



## fishfryer (Oct 25, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> The Late Dr, Kenny Waldrop showed me a classic Laurel Leaf he found in the Muckalee Creek here in Lee County. It was about 11 inches long and of a blue gray material I haven`t ever seen before and definitely not from around here. That blade was a beauty with exceptional workmanship. I`ve seen some magnificent Paleo artifacts, but never anything like this. I was a nervous wreck just holding it.


You are privileged to have seen to such objects, cherish those memories.


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 25, 2019)

fishfryer said:


> You are privileged to have seen to such objects, cherish those memories.




I do, Ken, I sincerely do. I`ve been fortunate to see a couple of collections that will never see the light of day. Artifacts and numbers of them that would astound anybody. Things that are local to the area.

South Georgia and north Florida have some projectile points and blades that will rival anything from Texas, Pacific northwest, and the Hopewell Complex.


----------



## blood on the ground (Oct 25, 2019)

I got nothing to add except this is the most interesting thread I've seen on here.


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 25, 2019)

Concerning the Clovis People and their artifacts. This is the only point type that has been found in 49 states, Mexico, and Canada. And there have been more found and documented in Alabama, than all the other states.


----------



## Duff (Oct 25, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> Concerning the Clovis People and their artifacts. This is the only point type that has been found in 49 states, Mexico, and Canada. And there have been more found and documented in Alabama, than all the other states.



Had no idea.

My first thought is the “Clovis” period was a much longer span than most experts think? Predated?



Loving this thread


----------



## Duff (Oct 25, 2019)

Inspires me to do some research


----------



## trad bow (Oct 25, 2019)

This thread is astounding and without a doubt the best thread I’ve ever read here. Thank you gentlemen for sharing your knowledge. This needs to be a sticky.


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 25, 2019)

KentuckyHeadhunter said:


> Here is a Clovis compared to a point that is possibly 3 thousand years older.  View attachment 981748




The blade on the right favors the "Sandia" point that Frank Hibben had dealings with back in the 1940s. I haven`t done a lot of research on it, other than reading his book, The Lost Americans, written during that time. In it he explains that the Sandia points predate Clovis, and that he found evidence of this when he excavated Sandia Cave in New Mexico. It now appears that this was all an elaborate hoax.


----------



## trad bow (Oct 25, 2019)

I don’t know as much as I should about this subject and this continents history to do anything but read y’all’s information and comments. I do however never believed the Clovis were first.


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 25, 2019)

I wish we could find out more about the Kennewick Man. That was interesting until it got hushed up.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Oct 25, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> I wish we could find out more about the Kennewick Man. That was interesting until it got hushed up.


Do tell!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 25, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> I wish we could find out more about the Kennewick Man. That was interesting until it got hushed up.


The Repatriation Act was abused greatly in that case.


----------



## trad bow (Oct 25, 2019)

Just finished reading up on the Kennewick Man. Fascinating but it goes to show why the Corps can’t be trusted with any thing.


----------



## trad bow (Oct 25, 2019)

National Geographic has been showing a documentary on Central American cultures. Technology has revealed thousands of structures, water systems, roads and pyramids larger than the ones in Egypt buried  beneath the jungle.  These people had the technical knowledge that the builders of the great Pyramid had but were separated by an ocean. One thing I can say about those cultures is their knowledge greatly surpasses most of us. I love archaeology and watch those shows.


----------



## Bigga Trust (Oct 26, 2019)

Oh no.  Pack up the bones and end discussion, study and debate!

Reporter Jack Hitt wrote in 2005 that "racial preferences color" the controversy about the genetic origin and ancestry of Kennewick Man.[53] James Chatters, the first anthropologist to examine the skull of Kennewick man, said that it lacked the "definitive characteristics of the classic Mongoloid stock to which modern Native Americans belong", adding that many of the characteristics of the skull "are definitive of modern-day Caucasoid peoples".[54] In 1998, Chatters reconstructed the facial features of the skull. Observers said that Kennewick Man resembled British actor Patrick Stewart


----------



## Nicodemus (Oct 26, 2019)

Bigga Trust said:


> Oh no.  Pack up the bones and end discussion, study and debate!
> 
> Reporter Jack Hitt wrote in 2005 that "racial preferences color" the controversy about the genetic origin and ancestry of Kennewick Man.[53] James Chatters, the first anthropologist to examine the skull of Kennewick man, said that it lacked the "definitive characteristics of the classic Mongoloid stock to which modern Native Americans belong", adding that many of the characteristics of the skull "are definitive of modern-day Caucasoid peoples".[54] In 1998, Chatters reconstructed the facial features of the skull. Observers said that Kennewick Man resembled British actor Patrick Stewart




I`m getting forgetful in my old age, but it seems I read somewhere that Kennewick Man had a lancelate point lodged into his hipbone or somewhere in that general area?


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 26, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> I`m getting forgetful in my old age, but it seems I read somewhere that Kennewick Man had a lancelate point lodged into his hipbone or somewhere in that general area?


He did.


----------



## Jimmypop (Oct 26, 2019)

From what little I have read on the subject of the peopling of america I have resolved my thinking to this. There probably or may have been several Roanoke's but the Clovis guys were the Jamestown folks. I am probably wrong but we're dealing with a lot of guesswork anyway.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 26, 2019)

If the Vikings could float across the Atlantic in 1000 AD in a wooden boat, anybody else could too. A civilization like the Egyptians who figured out how to build the pyramids could certainly figure out how to build a seaworthy ship. Ditto with the builders of Stonehenge, the Phoenicians, the Chinese, the Arabs, and any number of other cultures. As someone else mentioned earlier, they are finding that the Amazon Basin was once full of civilization. And there's that pesky detail of South American cocaine found in Egyptian mummies. And the stone heads with African features down there in SA.


----------



## Bigga Trust (Oct 26, 2019)

In 1998, _The New York Times_ reported "White supremacist groups are among those who used Kennewick Man to claim that Caucasians came to America well before Native Americans." Additionally, Asatru Folk Assembly, a neo-völkisch organization, sued to have the bones genetically tested before it was adjudicated that Kennewick Man was an ancestor of present-day Native Americans.

Who knows if the NY Times made this up.  They are not the always truthful in their reporting and at times make things up.  I was born and raised in South Alabama and have lived in Georgia for 25 year and never have met a "White Supremacist".

I suspect this is what drives them(left leaning academia/scientist) to withhold evidence, examination & study.


----------



## Katalee (Oct 26, 2019)

Read this book this summer,  1491 by Charles Mann. Some very interesting opinions.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 26, 2019)

Katalee said:


> Read this book this summer,  1491 by Charles Mann. Some very interesting opinions.


Yes, it is a good read.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 30, 2019)

QSVC said:


> Here's the first (I believe) Joe Rogan podcast with the 2 of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Finally got a chance to listen to it. Never heard both of them together before. Yes, they bring up some very intriguing stuff. I don't think stuff like that should be immediately discounted by the scientific community as it usually is. I think we don't know nearly as much as we think we do.


----------



## trad bow (Oct 30, 2019)

I never believed the scientific and archeological community because they always had tunnel vision. If someone had an opinion different than them and had the proof to back it up they would deny it. 
I would like someone to study all the native nation’s stories on their history and compare them to each other.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 1, 2019)

The oldest human remains in the Americas all contain the same DNA as modern native Americans.  Archeological finds are fascinating, but the proof is in our cells.  Is there even one case of human remains in the Americas where the origins are in dispute? I would be fascinated to learn about them.  Kennewick Man and the girl from the blue hole in south America are the oldest I'm aware of from around 15 thousand years ago and they have been proven to be of current native American haplotype.


----------



## Nicodemus (Nov 1, 2019)

Bobby Linton said:


> The oldest human remains in the Americas all contain the same DNA as modern native Americans.  Archeological finds are fascinating, but the proof is in our cells.  Is there even one case of human remains in the Americas where the origins are in dispute? I would be fascinated to learn about them.




Read up on the Kennewick Man.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 1, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> Read up on the Kennewick Man.


His dna was tested. He is definitely of current native American lineage.  I concede I didn't do the test, but that's what is being published.


----------



## Nicodemus (Nov 1, 2019)

Bobby Linton said:


> His dna was tested. He is definitely of current native American lineage.




Research deeper.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 1, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> Research deeper.


I will.  I I belive visitors from the world over are likely.  I just think we have the tools to find the physical evidence now.  Maybe we will one day soon.


----------



## Nicodemus (Nov 1, 2019)

Bobby Linton said:


> I will.  I I belive visitors from the world over are likely.  I just think we have the tools to find the physical evidence now.  Maybe we will one day soon.



Lot of mysteries out there I`d like to know the answers too. Why was a coin from the Roman Empire found in one of the major indian mounds? Can`t remember which one but I don`t think it was the Hopewell.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 1, 2019)

Modern haplotype testing has already changed our understanding of human migration. The aboriginal people of the islands of Sumatra, Japan, and Australia left Africa in a much earlier wave than people had thought.  A pre ice age civilization could have certainly been erased in the Americas before 15,000 years ago.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 1, 2019)

As far as trade goes, the Bay of Jars in Brazil is proof a Roman ship made it to south America.  People say it could have been blown off course or lost at sea, but that is just elitist.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 1, 2019)

There was a Chinese junk found buried in a swamp in coastal NC.


----------



## Nicodemus (Nov 1, 2019)

I`m of the belief that the Welshman Madoc made landfall here in the year 1169 and returned again in 1170 to settle.


----------



## Philhutch80 (Nov 1, 2019)

This thread just keeps blowing my mind. Here is part one of a four part series Randall did on the people that were here prior to European people's arrival. What he makes many interesting points on is of the mound work here in both Georgia and Alabama but also up in Ohio.


----------



## trad bow (Nov 1, 2019)

Just fascinating info to me.


----------



## oppthepop (Nov 6, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> I do, Ken, I sincerely do. I`ve been fortunate to see a couple of collections that will never see the light of day. Artifacts and numbers of them that would astound anybody. Things that are local to the area.
> 
> South Georgia and north Florida have some projectile points and blades that will rival anything from Texas, Pacific northwest, and the Hopewell Complex.


One should do some research and study the vanished tribe of Timucua native Americans, of which my mother's side of the family is a direct lineage.Quite interesting.


----------



## oppthepop (Nov 6, 2019)

The Timucua inhabited Nic's stomping grounds in Southeast GA and Northeast Florida. mostly unheard of "tribe" that basically vanished or assimilated into the Seminoles when the Spanish came. My deceased aunt did years and years of research on them, but sadly the research was all on paper and lost in a house fire right after she passed away.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 6, 2019)

oppthepop said:


> The Timucua inhabited Nic's stomping grounds in Southeast GA and Northeast Florida. mostly unheard of "tribe" that basically vanished or assimilated into the Seminoles when the Spanish came. My deceased aunt did years and years of research on them, but sadly the research was all on paper and lost in a house fire right after she passed away.


I've got a good old book called "The Indians of the Southeastern United States" by John Swanton that has a lot of plates of DeBry's old engravings from the 1500s of Timucua Indian life.


----------



## oppthepop (Nov 6, 2019)

NCHillbilly said:


> I've got a good old book called "The Indians of the Southeastern United States" by John Swanton that has a lot of plates of DeBry's old engravings from the 1500s of Timucua Indian life.


NCHILLBILLY that is awesome! I will look to see if I can find that book. thanks!


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 6, 2019)

oppthepop said:


> NCHILLBILLY that is awesome! I will look to see if I can find that book. thanks!


https://www.amazon.com/Indians-Southeastern-United-States/dp/087474895X


----------



## QuackAddict (Nov 7, 2019)

Great thread fellas.


----------



## Bobby Linton (Nov 7, 2019)

I was down with what Graham Hancock was saying till he started on telekinesis and the pyramids.  Kinda lost me there.  History is fascinating enough without the supernatural angle to me.


----------



## Tentwing (Nov 9, 2019)

Nic, I live close to and work in Manchester TN. There were Welsh coins from the 1100’s found in ,or around the old Fort here on the Duck River. Most people attribute the presence of those coins to Madoc ,or some of his people.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Nov 10, 2019)

I have read some pretty convincing theories about the Mandan Indians being descended from Madoc's Welsh colony.


----------



## DustyRoads (Nov 16, 2019)

Nicodemus said:


> Here`s one for starters.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Search-Ice-Age-Americans/dp/1586850210


Just bought it,thanks


----------



## Fletch_W (Jan 31, 2020)

Great, now there's like $220 of stuff in my Amazon cart.


----------



## oldguy (Jan 31, 2020)

Man I was forced to sit through 3 quarters of chemistry, two of physics, and calculus and I coulda' been listening to these guys and actually learn something! Something that woulda' stayed with me my whole life. AND I could still be learning about!!
I'm gonna' relay this to a 7th grade teacher friend of mine that teaches gifted kids. Do the World a favor and pass this on!


----------



## KentuckyHeadhunter (Feb 2, 2020)

Glad this thread led to such interesting conversations.  I watched both Rogan podcasts with Hancock and Carlson (over 6 hrs!) and finally finished them today.  I'm blown away by this information but my question is that if this cataclysmic event happened that wiped out the Clovis culture then why do we have layers above that with early Archaic material?  Leading all the way through to the woodland period and beyond?  Why are there so many mammalian remains and fossils that don't display a period of instant extinction?


----------



## Philhutch80 (Feb 4, 2020)

KentuckyHeadhunter said:


> Glad this thread led to such interesting conversations.  I watched both Rogan podcasts with Hancock and Carlson (over 6 hrs!) and finally finished them today.  I'm blown away by this information but my question is that if this cataclysmic event happened that wiped out the Clovis culture then why do we have layers above that with early Archaic material?  Leading all the way through to the woodland period and beyond?  Why are there so many mammalian remains and fossils that don't display a period of instant extinction?



Well it is similar to when the dinosaurs were taken out; only the smaller mammals survived that cataclysmic event 65 Mil years ago. With the Younger Dryas event, if it was a meteor or comet it was much smaller than the one that hit ending the Jurassic Period. Fascinating stuff though isn't it? I happened to be working in Montana around Missoula in 2017 when I discovered their podcasts and saw first hand the 'bathtub ring effect on the mountains both there and further south along the Madison River valley as well.


----------

