# FOX NEWS Report on DTP



## Model70 (Apr 23, 2006)

Anybody heard anything about FOX NEWS report about DTP,  I heard the report doesnot show DTP in a good light..


----------



## Model70 (Apr 24, 2006)

*you guys better wake up if you like riding.....*

The courts are trying to put a restraining order on D.P. by the 28th of this
month to shut D.P. down. Mike and D.P. REALLY REALLY need ALL the support
they can get. Like EVERYONE on this website could help one way or another.
This is just another step in the wrong direction for our sport in general.
Today it is D.P., Tomorrow, YOUR local riding area. PLEASE help Mike and
D.P. fight this fight.


----------



## DCarter001 (Apr 24, 2006)

OK...I need to know what D.P. or DTP is, exactly.  You mention riding area.  Horseback, atv, 4x4's, what?

I am totally dazed and confused?


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 24, 2006)

DCarter001 said:
			
		

> OK...I need to know what D.P. or DTP is, exactly.  You mention riding area.  Horseback, atv, 4x4's, what?
> 
> I am totally dazed and confused?


Thanks for asking.  Me too...


----------



## Model70 (Apr 24, 2006)

*DTP is Durhamtown Plantation*

ATV riding mostly,  see link below

Basically if they shut Durhamtown down,  wonder which ATV park will be next ????

http://durhamtown.com/


----------



## Model70 (Apr 24, 2006)

*nutshell report on Durhamtown*

WAGA is running an investigative report on Channel 5 Fox News on Thursday, April 27th at 6 and 10 PM regarding DP and its accident history.

In addition, the local policing agency is pushing, upon receiving a favorable ruling by a local judge, to obtain a restraining order to have DP cease operations by Friday, April 28th. The basis of the restraining order is that injuries and deaths occurring at DP are above normal industry standards for injuries and deaths related to this industry. If this order is successful, it may mean the demise of DP as well as other private ORV parks. 


Here is all the FOX5 contact info for when we need it...we will be prepared!!! 

WAGA-TV is located at 1551 Briarcliff Road Northeast, Atlanta, Georgia 30306. Our main telephone number is (404) 875-5555. 

General Addresses 

Assignment Desk, newstipsatlanta@foxtv.com 

FOX 5 Feedback, feedback5@foxtv.com 

FOX5 Human Resources Department, hratlanta@foxtv.com 

I-Team, IteamAtlanta@foxtv.com 


On Air Talent 

Nicole Allshouse, Reporter, nicole.allshouse@foxtv.com 

Portia Bruner, Reporter, portia.bruner@foxtv.com 

Lisa Crane, News Anchor/Reporter, lisa.crane@foxtv.com 

Morse Diggs, Reporter, morse.diggs@foxtv.com 

Doug Evans, Reporter, doug.evans@foxtv.com 

Tracy Flanagan, Reporter, tracy.flanagan@foxtv.com 

Dana Fowle, Investigative Reporter, dana.fowle@foxtv.com 

Aungelique Proctor, Reporter, aungelique.proctor@foxtv.com 

Doug Richards, Reporter, doug.richards@foxtv.com 

Dale Russell, Investigative Reporter, dale.russell@foxtv.com 

Mark Teichner, Reporter, mark.teichner@foxtv.com 

Tony Thomas, Reporter, tony.thomas@foxtv.com 

Randy Travis, Investigative Reporter, randy.travis@foxtv.com 

Paul Yates, Reporter, paul.yates@foxtv.com 

Back to top 


THIS WAS POSTED ON WWW.GEORGIAOFFROAD.COM TODAY

YOU MAY SEND A COMMENT IN SUPPORT OF DP IF YOU LIKE 

THERE IS ALOT OF INFO BEING POSTED ON THE 
www.georgia offroad.com forums about the issues as well


----------



## DCarter001 (Apr 24, 2006)

Thanks for clearing this up.  Since I can't watch the Atlanta news, what is the accident rate compared to other ORV parks nationwide?


----------



## Model70 (Apr 24, 2006)

*good question*

I thibnk that is the issue,  each ATV park is unique,  numer of trails,  acres,  number of riders etc.     So how can anyone compare the numbers  ????

I think more people died on Lake Lanier last year than at Durhamtown....  IMO


----------



## DCarter001 (Apr 24, 2006)

Model70 said:
			
		

> I thibnk that is the issue,  each ATV park is unique,  numer of trails,  acres,  number of riders etc.     So how can anyone compare the numbers  ????
> 
> I think more people died on Lake Lanier last year than at Durhamtown....  IMO


Comparing numbers is easy...You outlined the exact manner of creating a comparative analysis (#of trails, acres, users, throw in trail difficulty rating and you've got a formula to bring it all back to a common denominator).
The insurance companies conduct these exact analysis of ski resorts each year.

As I said, I can't watch the ATL news from way down here, but keep a close eye on it and let us know if it is a fair analysis.


----------



## gadeerwoman (Apr 24, 2006)

Not uncommon to hear of very serious injurys and some deaths there but they never get reported even in the local papers anymore. Heard they do not even use the local ambulance service any longer but have their own as a result of increased accidents. Personally, I think all the atv resorts should post their accident rates for any prospective riders on their lands. Too many youngsters AND adults getting hurt as a result of speed and carelessness on atvs and not just at the riding resorts. Wouldn't be surprised to see some serious legislative crackdowns on atvs in the next few years.


----------



## DCarter001 (Apr 24, 2006)

I don't want any outdoor park to be closed down.  I was not trying to shoot down the idea to support this atv park either.  Unfortunately, if any outdoor arena, from riding sports to shooting sports, does not police itself, the authorities will come in and do it for us.  If the users are not treating the park in a safe and courteous manner, they should individually be asked to leave.  Once you oust the rif-raf, the remaining patrons can enjoy themselves.


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 24, 2006)

Mostly though,  it is just people pushing a little beyond their abilities.  That is kinda what the sport is about...lol.  The pros you see on videos and tv had to start somewhere and only with practice can anyone get better.  More people get hurt in many other places rather than on trails.  I've never heard anyone gripe about a place because they got hurt riding there.  I fractured three vertebrae at Locust last year.  Not the trails fault at all.


----------



## red dirt (Apr 24, 2006)

My first comment is DP is NOT JUST an ATV PARK.   DP allows atvs, dirtbikes, golfcarts, RHINO TYPE suv , on their trails.  As Kreed stated, it is due to folks riding way above their ability stretching for the next level.  However, it is very disturbing to hear of any accidents, or deaths at any OFF-ROADING AREA or public riding opportunity.   

DP is also a desirable hunting, fishing, shooting resort and has been far longer than a riding hotspot.

A lot of reaction should be for better education for the children, WE ALL are required to have our children HUNTER-EDUCATION CERTIFIED,  why not a few hours during the SCHOOL YEAR for a Motorcycle-atv training course for all school children; ie  ATVSI Instructors doing an assmbly program for safety aspects.

Sorry for the rambling, but atving is, to me, as to hunting is to most of us here.

Lend your support if Facts so lead you.


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 24, 2006)

I'll put my 2 cents in on this one. When d'town first started it was advertised as an "atv paradise" . We used to be annual members. When we first started going quite a few years back it was mostly utility atv's, slow trail riding and some mud bogging and that was about it. Slowly but surley it turned into the monster that it is today. I gave up being a member because the owners were complaining about atvs and was talking about going with nothing but motorcycles because of trail use issues. ( Bikes dont tear up as much stuff). I would have to say 90% of the injuries come from the race tracks, you can sit there and watch people wipe out one after the other. To me there is a big difference between casual trail riding and racing on the MX tracks. People are going to get hurt trying to be like Ricky Carmichael. I wont go to D' Town ever again but I dont want government telling us where and how to enjoy our recreation. But overall I think the place has just gotten away from its owners.


----------



## ponyboy (Apr 24, 2006)

yeah , i hate this but one of the places i ride , close to home has some good rules .but they refuse to enforce them , so  between that and the rif raf if this goes bad , they may find themselves in line for some of the same.........let me know if there is something positive we can do .....


----------



## whitetailfreak (Apr 25, 2006)

although i don't ride, i hope things turn out well for dp. it is a great place to deer hunt for $125 per day. i killed a nice 13 pt. there back in oct. i got this email from dp today.

NOTICE TO ALL RIDERS OF DURHAMTOWN PLANTATION



Durhamtown is under attack by the government/individuals/media to be closed because of the number of injuries/deaths that have occurred here



Rumors were started that there have been more than 25 deaths in 2 years and untold injuries

With this initial rumor it was reported to WAGA Channel 5 I-Team Investigation in Atlanta, with Dale Russell being the primary reporter. Dale Russell, Investigative Reporter, dale.russell@foxtv.com



This is very untrue.... investigations outside of DP claim that there have been 8 related deaths in 4.5 yrs of operation.  Our records indicate 7 deaths with over 2,000,000 hours of riding at DP.    



It was also rumored that we (DP) restricted emergency helicopters from landing and we refuse to call ambulances to injured riders……again untrue.      



FOX 5 along with the GBI have interviewed over 200 people who have ridden at DP.   Dale Russell I-Team WAGA interviewed me last Saturday.     He questioned me about many untrue statements, which I corrected on camera.  As well as discussing many true statements.



I was told that Durhamtown was being shut down by Greene County along with criminal charges potentially being sought against me for involuntary manslaughter and other criminal charges by the GBI.    Greene County wants DP closed due to the injures and accidents ASAP.  They are trying to use zoning and permits to get this done if possible as a 1st attempt and 2nd thru criminal actions



         They are seeking a Temporary Restraining Order this Friday to close until a hearing is held to determine the future of DP and other riding areas similar to DP.   They stated they would not stop here; they want to stop any future DP type operations.  If they can create enough cost and fear many will close and more will chose not to open in the future in fear of charges and restrictions.    



Dp was questioned again today by FOX 5 about what are we doing wrong from other facilities.      I reversed the question to Dale Russell and he could not answer it.   I feel that DP has exercises more safety through enforced rules and regulations of our everyday operations.



FOX 5 does not have all the correct statistics to do a proper comparison yet and this is where we need help your help.  Anyone having any statistics from other sports & injuries please forward them to David Wade at peelskid@gmail.com.  We are trying to gather as many statistics as possible.  Please only forward statistic to David.  Continue to provide your comments, by either on the forums or to mikemc@durhamtown.com.



We are primarily a recreational facility with many families and beginners.  As with any sport involving beginners or the not so advanced will prove to have higher injuries than a trained athlete.



Dp is a victim of success and is under attack.



HOW CAN YOU HELP??????



Any help that you may offer will be appreciated    Many have already started by emailing WAGA, local/state/federal government agencies and many others to voice opinions and comments.  Following is a list of email addresses that others have sent to us that they feel is and could be useful.



FOX 5
General Addresses 
Assignment Desk, newstipsatlanta@foxtv.com 
FOX 5 Feedback, feedback5@foxtv.com 
FOX5 Human Resources Department, hratlanta@foxtv.com 
I-Team, IteamAtlanta@foxtv.com 

On Air Talent 
Nicole Allshouse, Reporter, nicole.allshouse@foxtv.com 
Portia Bruner, Reporter, portia.bruner@foxtv.com 
Lisa Crane, News Anchor/Reporter, lisa.crane@foxtv.com 
Morse Diggs, Reporter, morse.diggs@foxtv.com 
Doug Evans, Reporter, doug.evans@foxtv.com 
Tracy Flanagan, Reporter, tracy.flanagan@foxtv.com 
Dana Fowle, Investigative Reporter, dana.fowle@foxtv.com 
Aungelique Proctor, Reporter, aungelique.proctor@foxtv.com 
Doug Richards, Reporter, doug.richards@foxtv.com 
Dale Russell, Investigative Reporter, dale.russell@foxtv.com 
Mark Teichner, Reporter, mark.teichner@foxtv.com 
Tony Thomas, Reporter, tony.thomas@foxtv.com 
Randy Travis, Investigative Reporter, randy.travis@foxtv.com 
Paul Yates, Reporter, paul.yates@foxtv.com



Dale Russell is the I-Team reporter/investigator.  But emails to the general manager and other reporters as well may help.  I would let any and all of them know how we feel.



Here's a website you can contact ALL your elected officials, even the governor, President Bush, and FOX5.
www.congress.org/congressorg/home



Durhamtown appreciates your support!!!!



Thanks Mike


----------



## Bruz (Apr 25, 2006)

What ever happened to "Free Will" and "Personal Responsibility" Did DP train these riders, supply their equipment and Force them to ride the trails beyond their capabilities? 

America is is folding to a bunch of Pansies that want the Gooberment to keep them from hurting themselves.

This kind of thing makes me sick.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 25, 2006)

Seems I JUST read here a few weeks ago at most, several posting they would no longer ride there because it was too dangerous due to unenforced rules.  If you own a business and you CONSCIOUSLY disregard the safety of your patrons, you are gonna' pay, no matter what it is.  I can't imagine owning a business where I state "outside investigators report 8 deaths.... our records indicate 7 deaths..." 
I've only been there once and that was to consider an annual membership for hunting.  It was very clear to me what the ONLY concern was.  $$$$$$$$$


----------



## Bruz (Apr 25, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Seems I JUST read here a few weeks ago at most, several posting they would no longer ride there because it was too dangerous due to unenforced rules.  If you own a business and you CONSCIOUSLY disregard the safety of your patrons, you are gonna' pay, no matter what it is.  I can't imagine owning a business where I state "outside investigators report 8 deaths.... our records indicate 7 deaths..."
> I've only been there once and that was to consider an annual membership for hunting.  It was very clear to me what the ONLY concern was.  $$$$$$$$$



Phil,

I went there once myself for the same reason and personally I have no use for the place either. My point is that they have dirt that they allow folks to pay and ride on. If a person goes there with their equipment and can see the operation,CHOOSE to ride anyway and get hurt or killed then it was their choice to do so. 

It's like taking your car to Boston,paying for a tag to drive the roads, getting in an accident and then blaming the City for the fact that no one can drive up there. You paid, you CHOSE to drive and suffered the consequences in my opinion.

It's tragic when people are hurt and no one wants to blame the victim but in this case that's who deserves the blame. IMHO


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 25, 2006)

Bruz said:
			
		

> Phil,
> 
> I went there once myself for the same reason and personally I have no use for the place either. My point is that they have dirt that they allow folks to pay and ride on. If a person goes there with their equipment and can see the operation,CHOOSE to ride anyway and get hurt or killed then it was their choice to do so.
> 
> ...


I agree in principle but profiting off of the stupidity of others gets to me, ESPECIALLY when INNOCENT people are put at risk.   If everyone could ride in a bubble and just hurt themselves only, go break a leg! 
I've driven in Boston several times, and you're right, I think we have a case!


----------



## Bruz (Apr 25, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> I agree in principle but profiting off of the stupidity of others gets to me, ESPECIALLY when INNOCENT people are put at risk.



Phil,

Our entire economy is dependent on "Profiting from the stupity of others" and many times injury to an innocent (read evolution) bystander is the by product. i.e Lawn Darts, Cigarettes, Kayaks, Dodge Vipers, Climbing Tree Stands etc......

I will go now.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 25, 2006)

Bruz said:
			
		

> What ever happened to "Free Will" and "Personal Responsibility" Did DP train these riders, supply their equipment and Force them to ride the trails beyond their capabilities?
> 
> America is is folding to a bunch of Pansies that want the Gooberment to keep them from hurting themselves.
> 
> This kind of thing makes me sick.



I absolutely agree with Bruz. We visit Durhamtown as often as possible. We just returned from a 4 day camp/ride last week (my sons spring break) and we knew going in that there is always a possibility of some sort of accident happening to one of us. That is just part of the sport. Whether you ride a bicycle, skateboard, Horse, ANYTHING, you accept the risks of doing so.

We as parents and riders know going in that there are risks in the sport, and we accept that. We sign agreement/waivers stating evident dangers every time we visit a track or trail. Should we be able to hold the DOT responsible every time someone gets hurt in an automobile accident? I think not. Should a farm be shut down because someone got hurt or killed riding a rental horse, or a friends horse? You take just as much of a risk getting into your car every day to transport back and forth from work as I or anyone else does while riding an ATV or motorcycle.

IF YOU RIDE any kind of vehicle or animal on any State, Federal, or Privately owned land, you better take notice and do anything possible to help keep our areas from being closed. As stated already, your land or riding area will be the next one on the list ...............


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 25, 2006)

Not true.  If a commercial venture doesn't enforce it's own rules to reasonably insure the safety of it's patrons you are negligent.  DTP has a problem.  If there are documented complaints that went unaswered they likely have a bigger  problem and rightfully so.   If they are innocent, then I hope they are found so.  
For  those who were/are customers, have you ever seen any safety rules being enforced?


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 25, 2006)

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=590791&postcount=1


----------



## Model70 (Apr 25, 2006)

*You go BRUZ /Lakota*

that's the point exactly  you accept risk everyday.  Well most of us do.....

I have been there many times, just try to ride without a helmet....Watch waht happens when a kid mouths off to an orange shirted employee....

 I'm not saying DTP is perfect,  heck I lost 400 acres of my best hunting land to their riding operation....

BUT look out,  wonder if the "legislation" that will come out of this will impact HUNTERS riding ATVS on private land ???

Oh  gota go, my turkey breast in done....


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 25, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Not true. If a commercial venture doesn't enforce it's own rules to reasonably insure the safety of it's patrons you are negligent. DTP has a problem. If there are documented complaints that went unaswered they likely have a bigger problem and rightfully so. If they are innocent, then I hope they are found so.
> For those who were/are customers, have you ever seen any safety rules being enforced?


 
I've never heard anyone complain of them not enforcing their rules.  If anything,  I usually hear complaints because they enforce them too blindly.  They don't take into consideration individual circumstances,  if it is against the rules  their security will stop it and send you packing.  DP can't watch everyone all of the time and shouldn't be responsible for everyone all of the time.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 25, 2006)

Kreed5821 said:
			
		

> I've never heard anyone complain of them not enforcing their rules.  If anything,  I usually hear complaints because they enforce them too blindly.  They don't take into consideration individual circumstances,  if it is against the rules  their security will stop it and send you packing.  DP can't watch everyone all of the time and shouldn't be responsible for everyone all of the time.


Good deal.  Then hopefully they have nothing to worry about.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 25, 2006)

Some do not understand the circumstances of the deaths. I know of 3 comfimed deaths there (not saying they are the only deaths, just the only ones that I know matter of fact). All 3 were accidents. Plain and simple. One young girl was riding and got what I call "throttle panic". She opened the bike up and never let off. Trees took her life. A second male rider lost control of his bike over a jump on one of the MX tracks and ran into a tree. Trees are the main obstacle and danger. But, you cannot have trails without trees. 

As far as rule enforcement, DP enforces them to the point that some customers get mad. For example, last week a teenager on a 250cc bike started blasting around the Peewee track. A staff member immediately spotted hime and came over to explain the rules of the Peewee track. He shouldn't have even had to explain the rules. They are stated on a HUGE sign at the entrance to the Peewee track "no bikes over 125cc allowed and I think no ages over 13". His parents were there along with other smaller siblings of this fellow. They expressed thier opinions, but the staff stood behind the rules. The next day he came back again. I went straight to the lodge, reported him and he and his family was told to either leave the track, or leave the Plantation.

Dale and his I-5 team, along with everyone else needs to research the facts. I will be glued to the TV come Thurs night. I will also be locked and ready for any help needed in the matter from here on out. Bull like this really gets me going...... What's next. Are we going to have to cut our grass with clippers because someone cut a foot off with a lawn mower and bled to death? Never mind, you could fall on the clippers and stab yourself, so clippers should be banned too.  

And, if you guys are going to quote a tread, let everyone see the ENTIRE tread and not one mans opinion. Here is a link to the entire thread mentioned above.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=590791#post590791

-


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 25, 2006)

They really need another small track just for yungins. The way those pro 80's run,  a small kid will get run over easily.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 25, 2006)

Your wish is thier command. The DP staff just finished a smaller Peewee track 2 weeks ago. Specifically built for beginners. It's located across the road from the larger PW track, in the large parking lot.


----------



## frankwright (Apr 25, 2006)

If seven people were killed in 4.5 years at Six Flags,The Atlanta Zoo,Lanier Islands or anywhere else it would have already been shut down.

You can not be responsible for peoples actions and their inability to act responsibly but by providing a venue that is obviously that dangerous is very risky. I am surprised lawsuits not the TV news has not caused them a problem before this.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 25, 2006)

frankwright said:
			
		

> If seven people were killed in 4.5 years at Six Flags,The Atlanta Zoo,Lanier Islands or anywhere else it would have already been shut down.



I do not deny that it has or can happen, but I also cannot confirm 7 deaths in 4.5 yrs at DP. Hopefully we'll find out more about the real numer of deaths come Thursday. 

Come on, can you really compare a Six flags, a ZOO, and Laneir Islands to a place that has over 700 people riding motorized vehicles in one given weekend? You gotta get real on the comparisons (actually there is no comparison above).


----------



## beretta (Apr 25, 2006)

The only death I know about was last year. A teen age boy was goofing off on a 660 Raptor in the campground. He was riding (WHERE HE SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN)a wheelie with out a helmet and ran it straight into Pine tree. ...I hope they keep the place open. My family loves to ride there.


----------



## ponyboy (Apr 25, 2006)

how long has dp been open to riding  [just 4.5 yrs. ] ?


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 25, 2006)

For those of you that may not know, please take the time to visit the website below. You will find a HUGE wealth of information about DP and other offroad facilities in GA.

Hopefully I'm not violating any of the rules of posting here? This website has nothing to do with hunting. It's exclusively for the offroad crowd covering facilities and such located in GA and other Southeast states.

http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=1

.


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 25, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Seems I JUST read here a few weeks ago at most, several posting they would no longer ride there because it was too dangerous due to unenforced rules.  If you own a business and you CONSCIOUSLY disregard the safety of your patrons, you are gonna' pay, no matter what it is.  I can't imagine owning a business where I state "outside investigators report 8 deaths.... our records indicate 7 deaths..."
> I've only been there once and that was to consider an annual membership for hunting.  It was very clear to me what the ONLY concern was.  $$$$$$$$$


 You hit the nail on the head brother!


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 25, 2006)

I hate to see it go. But at the same time if it were to stay as it was " a sportsmens resort and atv paradise" and not a lets see how fast you can burn up the trails on your motorcycle. I think alot of these problems would have been avoided. I dont think very many got hurt muddin on the swamp loop with their utility quads.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

> If you own a business and you CONSCIOUSLY disregard the safety of your patrons, you are gonna' pay, no matter what it is.


Can't satisfy everyone I guess. Maybe we should just keep the ATV folks seperated from the bike folks ... And I don't think that anyone that hasn't spent time RIDING there shouldn't have much of an opinion on the rules and how they are enforced. How could you know if you've never been there? I speak from hands on experience.

This type of attitude is what seperates the riders. I ride a bike, my wife rides an ATV. I have no problem with either one or anyone that rides them. You can't **** around on a bike like you can on an ATV. They aren't geared for that. They aren't built for that.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

For anyone that really cares. Here it is from the horses mouth. Mike, the owner with the latest update........



> HERE IS WHAT IS GOING ON AS FAR AS I KNOW
> 
> Not alot of info is being released for me to work with
> 
> ...


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

You want to compare, then here are a few statistics to compare. There will be more by the end of the week.

Bear in mind that these still do not compare equally. DIRTBIKING and ATVing is much more dangerous than regular sports. As stated a million times, we as riders know this going in. Common sense should tell you that this type of sport will have more injuries than "squash" or "Soccer", etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.



> As far as statistics go, I have loads of information, thanks to you. DP is trying to show that they have had injury/deaths at a rate of so many per 1000 of hours or riding. I have found only one source that will compare apples to apples and that is as follows:
> Table # 1 death injury odds
> Motorcycle, Motorbike 2,106 54,000 1 in 26
> Data From NHTSA Traffic Safety Facts 1997
> ...


----------



## B Young (Apr 26, 2006)

.... we may find out he is being investigated for more than injuries and deaths?  Mike has made some horrible decisions concerning injuries also. I used to be a member there. There are a lot of things going on that people do not understand,I have a lot of friend that work there. They say one of the biggest problems is Mike! Because of this myself and many others have left.
We do not want to be associated with DP.When I left there were a lot of injuries, that number as gone up in the last 2 years.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 26, 2006)

Hate to jump to conclusions but whoever they are interviewing comes across as.... well..... not very favorably on the blurbs they are showing.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 26, 2006)

LAKOTA said:
			
		

> You want to compare, then here are a few statistics to compare. There will be more by the end of the week.
> 
> Bear in mind that these still do not compare equally. DIRTBIKING and ATVing is much more dangerous than regular sports. As stated a million times, we as riders know this going in. Common sense should tell you that this type of sport will have more injuries than "squash" or "Soccer", etc. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.


Lakota,
That chart says INJURIES, not deaths.  Do you have the INJURY rate for DTP?  
I would actually assume ATV riding to be LESS dangerous from an overall injury rate than many sports.  I don't know a 40 year old who actively plays any sport (especially contact) that hasn't been injured.  I know many riders who have never been injured.   But that's really irrelevant.  Yes, everyone would like to know if DTP is more dangerous than other riding parks.  It would SEEM that information should be available.  They aren't the only one in the country obviously.   I'm suspect of anything that is shown on the news but maybe it will provide some objective info.  Hey, we can hope anyway right?


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

No injury rate for DP yet. They are working on that. I would expect it to be pretty high since DP has one of the largest, if not THE largest number of customers per year in the US for the particular type of sports complex.

Believe it or not, I don't even know Mike (the owner), nor have I ever met him in person. I have a strong opinion on this subject because I feel that me, my family and many other riders will lose our rights to ride what we want to ride, and where we want to ride as long as it is legal. I'm tired of people not wanting to take responsibility of THEMSELVES and wanting our govt. to do it for us.  

I've had my nephew under my supervision while riding and he's gotten a concusion twice and broken both arms. Was I scared or worried, you bet I was. Seeing him lying there motionless for about 2 minutes with dirty salava running out of his mouth and eyes rolled back into his head. I can't describe the fear I had for his safety. Have I or will I quite riding because of this, no.

Every time I plop my rear end across the seat of my dirtbike, I know that dangers are ahead. I know that I could be hurt, mamed, or even killed riding. I don't have to be going 70mph to get hurt. I can be starting off in 1st gear, hit a root, get thrown into a tree and lose my life.

You guys on Street bikes choose to take the same risks. You are not in complete control of a bike if your around other riders, cars, trucks, etc. You cannot rule out an accident unless you choose not to ride.

I ALREADY KNOW THIS BEFORE STRATLING THAT SEAT!


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 26, 2006)

frankwright said:
			
		

> If seven people were killed in 4.5 years at Six Flags,The Atlanta Zoo,Lanier Islands or anywhere else it would have already been shut down.
> 
> You can not be responsible for peoples actions and their inability to act responsibly but by providing a venue that is obviously that dangerous is very risky. I am surprised lawsuits not the TV news has not caused them a problem before this.


 
9 people were killed in amusement parks from '95-'97. That is somewhere that there is supposed to be no danger.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

Two were killed yesterday by accidental electrocution. Someone may correct me, but I think it was Disney world / land?


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 26, 2006)

I've heard that there have been a lot of deaths at Disney world but they pay a lot of money to keep it under the table and out of the papers.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

Kreed5821 said:
			
		

> I've heard that there have been a lot of deaths at Disney world but they pay a lot of money to keep it under the table and out of the papers.


Search Disney Deaths on Google. You won't believe what you'll find.....


----------



## Kenny K (Apr 26, 2006)

I just found out about Durhamtown's situation yesterday. I reckon I got put on Mike's email list because I emailed him a question last Fall about renting a cabin, and found the email explaining what was going on. Anyway, I think this whole situation is a load of crap. I WILL be watching the report on FOX 5 to see how they are going to spin this. Like others have said, accidents and fatalities happen at amusement parks, lakes, swimming pools, football fields, shooting ranges, and even the woods where we all hunt. What about all the people who die on the highways each day? What  about that?? Should all the highways be closed?? That would be ridiculous, but that is what could happen to Durhamtown. Any time you get people together doing anything more dangerous than playing tiddlywinks there is the risk of injury or death. For someone to go to a riding facility like Durhamtown and NOT have the mindset that riding ATV's or dirtbikes is dangerous is proposterous.

I have been to Durhamtown several times and their staff has always been professional and emphasized safety. I personally witnessed some guys get sent home because they were breaking the safety rules. BUT...the staff can't hold everyone's hand and watch them every second. Mike and his staff cannot be held responsible for riders who break the rules, are inexperinced and ride above their abilities, or are just plain stupid and take stupid chances. 

I have seen a few responses here that things aren't the "same" as they used to be at DP.  Well..you know..things are always changing, and never stay the same.  If things always stayed the same, people would get bored and whine about that too. 

I sent an email to Fox 5 stating my opinion on this matter, and I hope Mike and Durham Plantation continue to stay open and run a sucessful buisness. I'll spend my $$$ there.


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 26, 2006)

Wel as I said I hate to see it go. If it goes many more may be not too far behind. I have had ALOT of memories there with the kids and family. Back when it was safe to take your family riding there. As far as seperating bikes and atvs...? I like that idea. bikes have alot of places to go (ga off road forum)  . Atv's dont have near as much. If d'town stays  hopefully the owners will be a little more humble. Especially about the group of riders that put them on the map. ( atvs of course)


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 26, 2006)

kudzumotorsports said:
			
		

> Wel as I said I hate to see it go. If it goes many more may be not too far behind. I have had ALOT of memories there with the kids and family. Back when it was safe to take your family riding there. As far as seperating bikes and atvs...? I like that idea. bikes have alot of places to go (ga off road forum) . Atv's dont have near as much. If d'town stays hopefully the owners will be a little more humble. Especially about the group of riders that put them on the map. ( atvs of course)


 
lol...you say the opposite of most bikers http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16664 .  They claim that atv's are able to ride everywhere and try to take over their few 'single trails'.  I don't want em separated except for those single trails that give dirt bikers an extra level of difficulty.  I've had too much fun riding with bikes to want em separated.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 26, 2006)

kudzumotorsports said:
			
		

> As far as seperating bikes and atvs...? I like that idea. Bikes have alot of places to go (ga off road forum) . Atv's dont have near as much.


I would prefer that bikes and atv's are not seperated. My wife rides an atv, and my son and I both ride bikes. That would seperate us from riding together. That is precisely why we drive 270 miles round trip to DP. We have Bremen MX just 9 miles from our front door, but she cannot ride her ATV at the same time we ride our bikes. Another reason is that Bremen MX is a REAL track ( no trails ). Experienced riders are there to practice at race speeds, including ATV's. No way she would venture out on the track with those guys, nor would I allow her to do so.

As far as areas that welcome ATV's, unless you include pure Motocross tracks that host RACING weekly, I'm sure that anyone with an ATV has just as many places to choose from as bike riders. The majority of the trails at DP are marked for ATV & MC use. There are some single track trails for MC's, but you couldn't get and ATV in them if you wanted to, they are too narrow. Below is a small sampling of areas that welcome ATV'ers in GA and 1 in West AL ...

Anderson Creek ORV Area
Beasley Knob  
Broad River ATV 
Davenport ORV Area    
Durhamtown Plantation
Highland Park
Houston Valley ORV Area
Locust Stake ORV Area
Milma Creek ATV Trail
Moates Knob ORV Area
Rock Creek ORV Area    
Whissenhunt ORV Area
Kentuck Trail (AL)

I'm not an ATV hater by any means, but I do understand that it takes a lot more time, work and money to keep trails and tracks maintained that have been abused by uncaring ATV operators. Common sense explains that a 6 inch wide bike tire cannot compare to TWO 14 inch tires (in some cases, 4 tires (4x4's) ripping dirt, rutting out areas and creating swamp holes, etc.



			
				kudzumotorsports said:
			
		

> Back when it was safe to take your family riding there.


I don't mean any disrespect toward you, but what has happened in your eyes to make DP not as safe as it used to be? Bikes? Please explain.

.


----------



## Kenny K (Apr 26, 2006)

I used to ride with a bunch of quad guys, until most of them got uninterested and/or in a tight for money and had to sell their rides, so I have NOTHING against quads or quad riders. As long as they respect me, everything is fine. I have seen some quad riders who seem to think they are "invincible" because they are duped into thinking ATV's are more stable and easier to ride than a dirtbike. I think that is a deception on the side of ATV's. They are just as dangerous as a 2 wheel bike, with the exception that they don't require as much skill to balence. Speed and inexperience or excessive risk taking will get ya in the end, no matter what you ride. I've seen some bike guys do some stupid stuff too, so thats why I can't take sides.

Broad River ATV is geared more toward ATV's (they have lots of big swamp holes and bogs to play in) than toward bikes, but I rode there recently and didn't have a problem with anyone. Some of those swamp holes were a little tricky on two wheels. (kidding) It has even been brought up on the DP forurm that maybe Broad River "ratted out" Durhamtown to the media in an effort to up their buisness. Whether that proves to be true is yet to be seen. I hope thats not the case.  

I have ridden at Locust Stake OHV a couple of times. NEVER did I see ANY EMT's or even a ranger, unlike at Durhamtown or Broad River. I just didn't feel safe riding there.

All in all the issue is the "higer ups" closing places like Durhamtown down for "our own good".  I just can't swallow that.


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 27, 2006)

Kenny K said:
			
		

> It has even been brought up on the DP forurm that maybe Broad River "ratted out" Durhamtown to the media in an effort to up their buisness. Whether that proves to be true is yet to be seen. I hope thats not the case.


 
Not a  chance.  I was at Broad River when Mike came by and told John that he might as well close now.  John wouldn't even say an unkind word about him then.   John is a whole class above Mike and I've never heard him say an ill word toward DP even though many people would report Mike talking his head off about BR.

Furthermore,  BR has gotten more business than it can handle really.  They didn't expect to get so many riders so quick and are having a time trying to keep up.  John said from the beginning that he didn't want hundreds of riders per day but if they could get around 100 average,  they'd be happy.


----------



## MICHAEL TAYLOR (Apr 27, 2006)

*Durhamtown*

WHEN WILL IT STOP, IT IS THE RIGHT OF EACH PERSON TO PARTAKE IN ANY LEGAL ACTITIVY HE CHOOSES, HE KNOWS THE RISK, HES PAID HIS DUES, HIS FREEDOM IS BEING CHALLENGED AND TAKEN AWAY BY SOME PROTESTER WHO REALLY NEVER PARTAKED IN THE ACTIVITY HES PROTESTING. I AM VERY HAPPY WITH DURHAMTOWN'S POLICYS, THERE ARE DANGERS IN CROSSING THE STREET ALSO. I'V BEEN TO DURHAMTOWN MANY TIMES, MY 12 YEAR OLD TOOK A BAD FALL ON HIS DIRTBIKE,  THE EMT's WERE RIGHT ON IT, THEY CLOSED DOWN THAT TRACK UNTIL HE WAS TAKEN CARE OF FIRST. PLEASE PROTECT OUR RIGHTS TODAY---WE MIGHT NOT HAVE ANY TOMORROW--- CONTACT FOX 5 NEWS AND STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS AND FREEDOM TO CHOOSE AND DO AS LONG AS ITS LEGAL.  GET INVOLVED BEFORE ITS TO LATE, THANKS


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 27, 2006)

First of all LAKOTA I will say that when we ride we all have our safety gear, but I have a five yr old and a nine year old and they are just not capable of riding 30 mph on connector trails. The last time we went it was horrible ( hence my comments of I will never go back) bikes come by the kids so fast if my kids couldnt hear them before seeing them we would have had several wrecks. I have been on the beginner trails several times ( by beginner I mean the 15 mph trail behind the lodge) and have had bikes shooting rooster tails past the little ones. I think there is a common courtesy that used to be there and I havent seen that the last two times I've been. I used to be a member there. I gave it up. The last time we rode there I rode about five miles of trails and packed up. I would watch my kids pull over and somebody on a bike shoot a rooster tail right at their faces. Even had a headlight busted on the kazuma from one biker. Anyhow I could go on and on I still dont want to see it close I wont go back but I know alot of people like it and we dont need someone telling us where or how to ride. Again I DONT WANT TO SEE IT CLOSE


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 27, 2006)

So I saw the report.  What's the big deal?


----------



## ponyboy (Apr 27, 2006)

greene co. claims he doesnt have the proper permits .........


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 27, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> So I saw the report.  What's the big deal?


Exactly.

Ain't that something. 4.5 yrs of doing the exact same thing and all of a sudden DP doesn't have certain permits and needs to be shut down? Pure hockey. How many permits do you think have been granted to DP over the past 4.5 yrs? MANY. 

I don't think the injury/fatality reports are going anywhere as far as closing down the facility. More than likely the media is doing DP the favor of free advertising. Of course the permit issue will have to be solved, or the free advertising is useless....... Time will tell. 

I personally sat in court and heard the permit issues with Highland Park Resort, a 1,000 acre ORV park that just opened this year in Polk co. Almost 9 months of court crap concerning business permits BEFORE OPENING. I can only hope that DP will prevail as did Highland Park.



			
				kudzumotorsports said:
			
		

> I have been on the beginner trails several times ( by beginner I mean the 15 mph trail behind the lodge) and have had bikes shooting rooster tails past the little ones. I think there is a common courtesy that used to be there and I havent seen that the last two times I've been.


Kudzu,
I understand your anger toward those guys. But don't let a few inconsiderate riders deprive you from enjoying what can be a safe and extremely fun place to take your family and have a good time. I can bet you're old enough, fast enough, and big enough to know how to handle those types   .


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 27, 2006)

From what I gathered,  the permits are no big deal.  It sounded to me like the sheriff just has his drawers in a wod for dp.  After the 10:00 broadcast,  they stated that the sheriff had searched for any wrongdoing for a long time and couldn't find anything.  Mike said that the commissioners said the permits would be settled quickly so that can't be the problem.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 27, 2006)

LAKOTA said:
			
		

> More than likely the media is doing DP the favor of free advertising.


That was exactly my thought.  

Was the 11:00 report different than the 6:00?


----------



## Kenny K (Apr 27, 2006)

I thought that the little "fact" that FOX 5 reported that there were 0 deaths on the State OHV trails was a little fishy.  The last time me and my quad riding buds rode at Locust Stake (about 2 years ago) one of them mentioned that someone had died in a collision there just the week before. I'm sure the state can keep such things under wraps and out of the media. 

Fox 5 also played the "Kid Card"

I'm sorry for the losses the families have suffered, and I'm not going to point fingers at anyone or name any names.. BUT I will say this: This day and time I see TOO MANY parents who just don't pay attention to where there children ARE and WHAT they are DOING. They take them somewhere like Durhamtown and seem to think "Well, there are STAFF here that will keep an eye on my kids, so I don't have to keep such a close eye on them. They'll be OK." Even though Durhamtown is a "Family" riding area, it doesn't excuse Parents from supervising their children. On a couple of trips to Durhamtown I did witness individual and groups of young riders riding WITHOUT an ADULT...or at least I didn't see one close by. I thought to myself, "What if one of them got HURT???? WHO would know how to get help??" And heaven FORBID you report something like that to someone in authority. You'll get cussed at for being a "meddler" and told to "mind your own f'in buisness...they're NOT YOUR KIDS!!" by the parent. BUT when ONE child does get hurt or worse...the irresponsible parents are the first to hunt someone else to BLAME...like Mike and the DP Staff rather than accepting responsibilty themselves.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 27, 2006)

Kenny K said:
			
		

> Fox 5 also played the "Kid Card".


Yeah, that was weak.  I kept waiting for something about negligence.  Never heard it.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

They stated that 4 of the 8 deaths occured over the past few months.

Why the sudden increase?

I know quite a few first responders in Greene County as well as Sheriff Houston and I know why they are upset. You can say that Fox 5 is playing the "Kid Card" but the fact is that a large percentage of the accidents involve children.

As I see it it may not be Mike's poor judgement as much as it is the parents poor judgement in allowing their young'uns to blast out of control.

I do understand Chris' concern. If the adults will not act responsibly and protect the kids and one another then it is his responsibility as Sheriff to protect them.

I personally have not been to DP in several years but one thing I noticed in last nights report was a lack of sinage giving instruction or reminding those using the facility to exercise caution. Anyone operating a business for profit does have a responsibility to notify his customers of the inherent risks associated with the activity and to abate as much of the hazards as possible.

As a construction safety director, I have noticed a significant decline in my employees accident rate over the past few years and can attribute that decrease to the fact that we keep the safety message at the forfront of all our activities via briefings, handouts and signage. I can see where the management of DP would be well advised to take the same pro-active steps. It should become Mike's number one concern.

Yes, this is a "free country" but that does not mean that it is a "responsibility free country".


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> You can say that Fox 5 is playing the "Kid Card" but the fact is that a large percentage of the accidents involve children.


Jeff,
Did you see the report?  
The kid's stepfather was supposedly a PROFESSIONAL rider and taught him to ride.  The kid had been riding for several years.  He goes off a ramp that he had never attempted and died.  Now, how is that the owner's fault?  
A bunch of innuendo about whether that ramp should have been in that specific area and whether or not the ramp should have had a 'sign' saying its' dangerous?  Like the warning on cigarettes maybe?  Do parachutes come with warning labels I wonder?  
Read back in this thread and you'll see I was suspicious as anyone.  But if that report is all they could come up with after month's of investigation, I'm not seeing the problem.  
Would I go riding there with my kid?  No.  Would I run that business?  No.  The owner comes off as a little unstable not sure if it's related or not but just saying.  
Zoning issues are separate and they are what they are.  
As far as the place doing something to be negligent, they sure didn't show that in the report.   Maybe there's more smoke and some fire but based on just that report, they are stoking an ice cube.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

"As I see it it may not be Mike's poor judgement as much as it is the parents poor judgement in allowing their young'uns to blast out of control." quote - Jeff Young

Phil, That reading comprehension problem acting up on you again? 

I did not hear any "innuendo" about the ramp being in any area. I heard a definitive statement that the ramp was constructed by DP in a "Beginner's Area" and that since the death it had been moved to another area for more experienced riders.

As for the "parachute" comparison, I have attended a prejump training session and can tell you that safety is stressed firmly and continuously.

I've also done quite a bit of white water rafting/canoeing and can tell you that prior to beginning the run, if you are using an outfitter, the inherent dangers of that activity are preached and safety instruction administered to every participant prior to entering the water.

I'm merely suggesting that Mike may be able to help his own situation by spending a little time, effort and money on upgrading his operation as it relates to safety.

I'm sure Mike seems a bit unstable. There is no way that anyone can be that close to the continued level of tragedy that he has encountered without feeling the stress. I do not know Mike personally, though I did meet him some years ago, I do know his brother (I was his Sunday School teacher) along with several other family members and know them to be good people.

I also attended church with Sheriff Houston and my son worked for him for a couple of years and I can safely say that he is not prosecuting this deal for personal promotion. He has a real concern for "public safety".

The fact is that there is a problem that requires a solution. I don't believe shutting down Mike's business is that solution but I do believe he has some work to do.


----------



## gadeerwoman (Apr 28, 2006)

How the heck does a kid get killed without even leaving the parking lot by hitting a tree? Last night was the first report I had seen and that one really puzzled me. I have to say that seeing last night's report Mike came off as not being the most stable individual in the world. That was weird. I think if someone wants to get rich quick, a bike resort may be the way to do it. Let's see: 1000 people per day per weekend at $25 per head..........yep, I could live on that.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> "As I see it it may not be Mike's poor judgement as much as it is the parents poor judgement in allowing their young'uns to blast out of control." quote - Jeff Young
> 
> Phil, That reading comprehension problem acting up on you again?
> 
> I did not hear any "innuendo" about the ramp being in any area. I heard a definitive statement that the ramp was constructed by DP in a "Beginner's Area" and that since the death it had been moved to another area for more experienced riders.


Jeff,
My lack of reading comprehension is engaged like always.  Making fun of the less capable is not very becoming of you.  
The 'innuendo' was that it shouldn't have been there in the first place.  Based on what?  Skill level is all subjective and if the kid was riding for several years under the tutelage of a PROFESSIONAL rider, I would assume he knows what to do and not especially with that professional apparently there when it happened.  All I hear from people who ride there is about strict enforcement of rules and plenty of signange.  
Look, it's a dangerous sport.  
If the guy is negligent (which I saw NO suggestion of) he'll pay.  If not, he should be left alone provided he is complying with all laws (including zoning).  
If nothing else it got some information out so more of his customers can make informed decisions about their patronage.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

gadeerwoman said:
			
		

> How the heck does a kid get killed without even leaving the parking lot by hitting a tree? Last night was the first report I had seen and that one really puzzled me. I have to say that seeing last night's report Mike came off as not being the most stable individual in the world. That was weird. I think if someone wants to get rich quick, a bike resort may be the way to do it. Let's see: 1000 people per day per weekend at $25 per head..........yep, I could live on that.


Wonder what his insurance costs are.  He must have one lock solid release form but that obviously doesn't prevent people trying to sue.  
The girl killed in the parking lot sure was sad.   Trees don't give much. 
I just don't need money bad enough to operate something where people die with what by hopefully anyone's definition is fair regularity.  
The thing I wonder is for every death, I assume there are many many SERIOUS and potentially life long injuries.  Too much carnage, but hey, that's people's choice.  Glad maybe some now have their eyes even more open by their decisions.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Making fun of the less capable is not very becoming of you.



It is however, one of my favorite past times! Thanks for acknowledging your inferior position relative to my own.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> It is however, one of my favorite past times! Thanks for acknowledging your inferior position relative to my own.


I have never disputed that, despite credentials.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 28, 2006)

There are signs all over DP stating various rules and safety notices. Since I know some will not take the time to look at DP's website, here is some interesting reading direct from DP's webpage. NOTHING has been added. It's read this way since I've been riding there ..... There's more in the link below if you like.

Why are some of the rules in red? Because some of the deaths involved violations of these rules.



> DURHAMTOWN PLANTATION SPORTSMAN'S RESORT
> 
> RIDING RULES AND REGULATIONS
> 
> ...



There is more here .... http://www.durhamtown.com/forms/rules_forms.htm


-


----------



## EON (Apr 28, 2006)

Hey Phil, to answer your question.  Yes Parachutes do have warning labels.  I know, I was an instructor for many years.

I knew Mike and his family before the atv and bike thing.  The interview portrayed him pretty much as I expected.  

Anytime kids are allowed to be put in harms way something needs to be done.  Regardless if it's the property owner, parents or goverment, childern should never be allowed to be put into that type of situation.  Adults should know better, kids are not mature enough to know better.

I'm not saying the place should be closed down but something should be done.  Apparnentlly something isn't working there.

As for the City officials, he's had his run in's with them before, it's not the first time.

Hated to hear about his Momma, she was a nice lady.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

EON said:
			
		

> Hey Phil, to answer your question.  Yes Parachutes do have warning labels.


So do motorcycles and ATVs.  I'm just trying to figure out what this guy should be doing to protect people from themselves.  The only deaths I heard detailed were one vehicle accidents and operator error.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

Phil,

Mike created a business on his property with some inherent risks associated to it. He did so in order to make a profit. He does have a duty to insure that his customers are fully aware of those dangers, as well as being aware of prpoer ways to avoid those dangers.

I'm not trying to imply that he has not done some things to advise his clients of the dangers. I'm simply suggesting, as EON stated, that something is wrong at DP. There is obviously room for improvement and I believe it would serve the owners quite well to take steps "above and beyond the call" in order to change the current flow of accidents and tragedies that have consumed them.

Or, they could just keep on going the way they are currently?

Seems to be working out real well for them, huh!?


----------



## bradpatt03 (Apr 28, 2006)

i don't want to argue back and forth with anyone...but i will say that everyone out there who has died so far was at no fault other than their own or their parents. they or their parents signed a waiver saying that any injury or death was of no responsibility of dp. they made poor judgement calls by attempting to do something they didn't know how to do...or, in the campground death..the kid was not wearing a helmet, speeding in a restricted area, and rode a wheelie into a tree


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Phil,
> 
> Mike created a business on his property with some inherent risks associated to it. He did so in order to make a profit. He does have a duty to insure that his customers are fully aware of those dangers, as well as being aware of prpoer ways to avoid those dangers.
> 
> ...


Jeff,
Of the deaths that were detailed, how could actions by DP have prevented them (other than closing up shop of course). 
This liberal big government streak you are showing is unexpected but intriguing.


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 28, 2006)

The report was false about no fatalities in ORVs.  
http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2704&highlight=death+locust+stake

Maybe the gov't just don't want to keep up with those stats.  That's good though,  they might shut em down otherwise.  The difference in the two broadcasts was after the clip from the I-team finished,   the anchors sitting at the table talking.  Dale Russell made it sound as if the Sheriff was the only one standing against DP.  He even admitted that they hadn't broken any laws.  They should have looked at all 8 deaths a LOT closer.


----------



## gadeerwoman (Apr 28, 2006)

End results will be there will be no change/charges/or shutdown. There were problems at Durhamtown before it became a bike resort, there are problems now that it is it seems. However, I will be greatly surprised if the county takes any actions whatsoever. They have seemed to bend over backwards in the past....probably will do it again. 
But I suspect that if a pay hunt resort had the same number of accidents and deaths in the same time period, it would have been shut down long ago.


----------



## EON (Apr 28, 2006)

Brad, sorry to say but I ain't buying it.  It dosen't matter how many wavier's a person signs, there's no excuse of allowing a minor to be put in that position.  

I saw many dropzones trying to defend someone's death in jumping accidents, and loose.  All of those where adults.  I couldn't imagine the outcome had they been under age.

Bottom line is, the business owner allows activities known to kill and injury so why on earth allow minors the opporunity to follow suit?  $$$$  Even if the parent is there, it's his behind regardless how lame the parent is.

There is a problem there $$$$


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

Kreed5821 said:
			
		

> The report was false about no fatalities in ORVs.
> http://www.georgiaoffroad.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2704&highlight=death+locust+stake
> 
> Maybe the gov't just don't want to keep up with those stats.  That's good though,  they might shut em down otherwise.  The difference in the two broadcasts was after the clip from the I-team finished,   the anchors sitting at the table talking.  Dale Russell made it sound as if the Sheriff was the only one standing against DP.  He even admitted that they hadn't broken any laws.  They should have looked at all 8 deaths a LOT closer.



The report said very clearly that there had been one death at all the other parks combined in the same period that DP had incurred 8.

At least during the 10PM report, they did state that one other had occured.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 28, 2006)

> Sheriff Houston,
> 
> I need your protection from a terrible danger to me and my family. It's my truck, and the state that provides the road for me to drive on. I could be killed driving my F-150 down the highway. Others have been killed and injured in vehicles just like mine. It happens every day. So you need to stop the state from providing me a place to get killed or injured. And please do it quickly.
> 
> ...


 ---


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 28, 2006)

That one was at a private facility.  

It is all about freedom, like it or not.  No body forces any one to ride.  Before a minor can ride at any private facility I've been to,  BOTH parents have to sign a release.  They knew the ramps were there.  Who can not see that a freestyle ramp is dangerous?  My five year old wouldn't do that!  

The reason for the injuries is obvious.  It is a dangerous sport.  No other facility in GA does the amount of business that DP does, none of them have 5 mx tracks,  none of them have freestyle ramps that I know of, and none of them have recieved national recognition for the last couple of years.  DP has riders from all over the southeastern US and beyond.  MANY Florida and SC  riders are there every week.  It is like comparing Wal-Mart to a ma & pop convenience store on a dirt road.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> This liberal big government streak you are showing is unexpected but intriguing.



Phil,

You've confused my desire for folks to accept responsibilities for their actions with liberalism? I know that purple and yeller diploma is of little value but surely you can grasp the difference here?

The owner has created a business and invited, via advertisement, the public to become involved in an activity at a facility which he himself seems to be soley responsible for. The design, the construction, the purpose and the rules are all of his concept. Had he not done so, with the idea of profiting from that activity, none of this would have happened.

Merely having a signed waiver does not relieve him of due deligence in protecting those people he solicitied and pursuaded to partake of his product.

Let's look at an anology. Let's say you decided to use your land to create a commercial firing range. You set up a booth on your land and charge $5 per hour for participants to shoot. You then have them sign a piece of paper informing them not to shoot in the direction of the other customers but you do not construct shooting lanes, berms and backdrops to assist in directing the fire.

One of your customers goes to one side of your property and procedes to shoot another customer who is on the other side eating a peanut butter sandwich.

Who is at fault? The guy with the .40 cal hole in his Nature's Grain? The shooter who could not see the pb smacker? Or the proprietor who failed to construct lanes and berms as detailed in the latest directives of the Gun Range Engineer's Handbook?

Business owners are responsible to carry forth with due deligence when it comes to providing a product that, to an acceptable degree, is safe for consumers and insuring that those consumers are abundently aware of any faults and inherent risks in the product or service.

From your perspective, it would seem that a person could sell bungee jumps off a 200 foot platform using a 225 foot cord and the business owner would not be responsible for the severe headache of the poor unsuspecting consumer.  

Do you believe that any of the 8 people that died at DP went there believing that their activity that day would result in their deaths?


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Phil,
> 
> You've confused my desire for folks to accept responsibilities for their actions with liberalism? I know that purple and yeller diploma is of little value but surely you can grasp the difference here?
> 
> ...


You must have a lot more information about the negligence of the operation than the news does.  The personal responsibility you tout also applies to the patrons as well correct?  Spin this one the way you want.  Nothing, so far, implicates the ownership of negligence.  If he hadn't opened, the girl who drove into the tree in the parking lot, would have driven into a tree in her backyard.  It just wouldn't have been newsworthy.  
Very surprising Jeff.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 28, 2006)

Please tell me how Mike or any of the staff at DP could have prevented a person on an ATV from hitting a tree while popping wheelies and/or speeding in a parking lot. Which both were a direct violation of the rules at DP that are stated on the registration paperwork that was signed by this person? Plus, each person registering is given a set of rules & regs of the park as well as a map.

The same goes for a man killed from losing control of his bike over a jump, and into a tree. How could they have prevented this?

Same goes for the poor girl that lost here life because she never let off of the gas while racing on the strip.

I just don't get it. If someone can tell me how this could have been prevented by the staff or owner, then I won't post again of the subject.

-



			
				Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Do you believe that any of the 8 people that died at DP went there believing that their activity that day would result in their deaths?



Would you believe or expect that when you leave for work tomorrow that you may not make it back home? Will you go anyway?

-


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> If he hadn't opened, the girl who drove into the tree in the parking lot, would have driven into a tree in her backyard.



Let's see the evidence to back that one up. Did Sen. Chucky Schummer write that one for you?

This really should be very simple. It is obvious that the system at DP is broken and needs to be fixed. 

I'm not trying to imply that the business should have never have been opened or that it should be closed down. I'm simply suggesting that it is broke and it needs to be fixed and that I believe that with more diligence it can be fixed.

I can't imagine anyone having a problem with that if it results in less injuries and fatalities.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> I can't imagine anyone having a problem with that if it results in less injuries and fatalities.


Of course no one would.  But so far, NOTHING implies it is run any less safely than any other park and apparently he goes to lengths to make it MORE safe.   Again tell me what rule would have prevented ANY of the deaths they described?   
People die when they do risky things.  Life sucks.  
Jeff, there are warning lables on cigarettes.   Yet people smoke 'em by the millions are are literally dying every single day.  What should we do about that?


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

LAKOTA said:
			
		

> The same goes for a man killed from losing control of his bike over a jump, and into a tree. How could they have prevented this?



How about by cutting down some trees and widening out the track around such jumps? Or making the jump less radical/steep? Or adding a turn prior to that jump to force the rider to slow to a speed at which his velocity would not carry him into a fixed object? Or some combination of those?

That's off the top of my head. There are solutions for every problem, to some extent. You're not going to make it perfect but dang! Can't we agree that there is something out of skew here?

Maybe not?

I'll leave it alone and go fishing.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Can't we agree that there is something out of skew here?
> Maybe not?
> I'll leave it alone and go fishing.


Apparently not.  For God's sake don't hook yourself in the thumb or fall out the boat and worse..., I'd hate to see the news out there harassing the marina owner.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Jeff, there are warning lables on cigarettes.   Yet people smoke 'em by the millions are are literally dying every single day.  What should we do about that?



Creamate and/or bury them?

Phil, the tobacco companies have paid through the nostrals for selling a defective product and for intentionally advertising their products as something we should want to consume.

Your example makes my case for me.


----------



## GeauxLSU (Apr 28, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Creamate and/or bury them?
> Phil, the tobacco companies have paid through the nostrals for selling a defective product and for intentionally advertising their products as something we should want to consume.
> Your example makes my case for me.


 
Their product is not 'defective'.  It's harmful.  They admit it.  It's still marketed and people still buy it.  Should we bring in the gun analogy.  I mean, perhaps all guns should have some sort of bio-id mechanism to prevent only lawful owners from firing them and NOT at innocent human targets......
Jeff, go fishing, it's obviously been a long week for you.


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 28, 2006)

It is not broken,  why fix it?  You seem to be going solely under the assumption that there is a huge difference in the number of accidents there from other places of the same type.  Where did you get that?  There is no other place of that magnitude anywhere around here.  I'm not talking about size but the number of patrons.  Go to any of the ORVs one weekend and then the next one go to DP.  BIG difference.  At what point do riders take responsibility for their actions?  Actually,  it is not the riders that are not taking responsibility is it?  Seems like the only people complaining are those who have nothing to do with the sport or those who are grieving for the loss of loved ones.  And those loved ones evidently had no problem with it in the years preceding the loss.  The mom said she had no idea he could die from it?  Her husband was a pro for 39 years,  he KNEW IT!  They want to pass their guilt off on someone else in my opinion.


----------



## Mechanicaldawg (Apr 28, 2006)

Kreed, and this time I really am leaving, the parents of any child injured there participating in that activity is just as responsible as the operator of the business and as you state in the case of the father being a train professional, he has even more.

However, that does not relieve the owner of his responsibility and duty.

BTW, do they do more than 8 times the business of all other trails in the State combined? I really don't know?

This issue has not just balloned up out of no where. It has been stewing for years and the citizens of Greene County have been sending their responder units out there time after time and instead of things improving they have gotten worse.

Something needs to change to some degree.


----------



## Arrow3 (Apr 28, 2006)

They border up to one of my hunting clubs....I don't know exactly how much business they do but i can tell you its a constant roar from about 9 am to dark.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 28, 2006)

I of course cannot confirm numbers, but I would guess by all means that DP has 10 fold the number or riders in a weeks time on average than other ORV's or tracks. From what I understand (I've only been visiting DP for 1.5 yrs), it has grown tremendously in the last 2 yrs. I've had conversations with riders that have been riding there since the opening. They all admit that the size and changes in the last couple yrs have been unreal. Changes that are GOOD. More rules, more places to ride, several tracks to choose from, etc. DP has tried to accomodate every type of rider out there. They just finished another peewee track built specifically for brand new and learning young riders a couple weeks ago.

Imagine this... You live in a small town that has one 4-way stop on a major state highway. There are an average of 2-3 vehicle accidents annually at this 4-way stop. A developer comes in and builds 3 or 4 subdivsions that now house hundreds of New residents. Would you expect the accidents to increase because of the increase in drivers? Of course you would.

As for a sudden increase in deaths in the last 8 months (4 dead in 8 months), I don't think anyone can explain that. They were all unrelated in where and how they happened. There may be 24 months pass before another death occurs, or never again. We have no way of knowing.


----------



## georgian76 (Apr 28, 2006)

can we hunt over corn this year?

just tring to calm everyone down 



i have never been, and dont know if i will ever. but i dont not believe the guy did anything wrong. like it had been posted, the owner has/d rules, you have to read and sign such rules. and if your kids are there with you, i would hope you would sit and explain each in great detail BEFORE any bike or atv was even unloaded. and for me if my kids didnt understand, it would be a wasted trip and money for me, cause i would go home. my kids saftey/life is more important to me than any amount of fun. and my kids know if we are doin something and a rule is broken, especialy one that will bring harm to one or any of them, we are packing up and heading home. 


where was the kids parents when he was riding a wheelie with no helment and in a place where he was not allowed to?  shouldnt there be some kind of charges on the parents??


just my .02


----------



## Deerhead (Apr 28, 2006)

1st let me sat I pray for the 8 people who have lost their life doing something they obviously enjoyed doing!

Having never been their I can not say if anything has been done wrong.  The sport is dangerous and each individual must use good judgment and be responsible for their “own actions”!  

I would like to hear what the owner has DTP has done to improve the conditions and prevent accidents from reoccurring.  Based on what I have seen and read he has used good sound judgment and he cares about his customers. 

Everyone deserves a chance to be treated fairly and responsible for their own actions.


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 28, 2006)




----------



## Kenny K (Apr 29, 2006)

EON said:
			
		

> Anytime kids are allowed to be put in harms way something needs to be done.  Regardless if it's the property owner, parents or goverment, childern should never be allowed to be put into that type of situation.  Adults should know better, kids are not mature enough to know better.



Thats not going to fly with me. Kids are put in "harms way" everytime they are put into or get into an automobile from the day they are brought home from the hospital when they were born. I'll bet you a million bucks that more children die in car crashes than from quad/dirtbike accidents each year. Yet car accidents are considered a "normal" means of a child dying but getting killed on a dirtbike or quad isn't.  I know quite a few kids who are "mature enough" NOT to take chances on a dirtbike, quad or even an automobile too. But then again I see and know alot of kids that you have to watch constantly or they'll be playing with their toys in the middle of  I-85.



			
				Jeff Young said:
			
		

> Do you believe that any of the 8 people that died at DP went there believing that their activity that day would result in their deaths?



To answer your question: No. And I would imagine the people who died on the highways in cars and trucks, or on the lakes in boats or jet skis, or at  their own home when the lawnmower toppeled over on top of them today didn't either. I'm SURE there are some people on this forum that love to hunt.(imagine that) I'm sure those who died as the result of a hunting accident didn't believe their activity that day would result in their death. I sure wouldn't want to get up one morning and say "I'm going to do ________ . I wonder if I'll die doing it?"

If this was a case that involved hunting or fishing, and it came down to closing a lake or hunt club or WMA and holding a landowner responsible...man o man...I couldn't imagine the uproar. I'm sure there would be some different tunes.

But its not. But what's the difference, be it hunting, fishing, driving a car/truck on the highway, mowing grass OR riding dirtbikes or quads? ALL of these activities can be done responsibly and safely with COMMON SENSE, and we live to do it another day. OR NOT..and it might be the last activity we do.

The choice is OURS.  Just like it is every riders' choice that rides at Durhamtown, or any other private or state owned riding area.


----------



## Bruz (Apr 29, 2006)

EON said:
			
		

> .
> 
> Anytime kids are allowed to be put in harms way something needs to be done.  Regardless if it's the property owner, parents or goverment, childern should never be allowed to be put into that type of situation.  Adults should know better, kids are not mature enough to know better.
> 
> .



According to the Committee to Abolish Sport Hunting web site there were 29 deaths in the 04-05 season related to hunting that involved kids under the age of 18. So by your logic we should not let kids hunt either. We might as well keep them in a bubble ....No cars, hunting, going to school and no BB guns cause they might shoot their eye out.

Yes the parents have the obligation to teach safety to their children regardless of the activity but that is the parents job....not the government. If some parents fail then we are dealing with natural selection....Accidents happen..that's life.....We're here once...we can either accept the risks or hide in the shadows...I choose to accept the risks and actually LIVE and so will my children...As safely as possible.


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 29, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> BTW, do they do more than 8 times the business of all other trails in the State combined? I really don't know?


 
Jeff,  it wouldn't surprise me if they do at least 8 times more.  DP has up to 2,000 riders per weekend.  The others are overcrowded if they have 200 and most of them won't handle that many.  Have you ever been to Locust Stake on a saturday?  Just go by and check out the parking lot,  or if you're really brave...ride the trails.

And as far as I know nobody keeps stats on the actual injuries and deaths from the other places.  Fox 5 probably just searched the web to try to find accounts of people being killed elsewhere.  The private areas would probably remember.  The ones from DP can be found quite easily compared to the others.  

They clearly stated that there was no pattern to the deaths at DP.  Actually there was,  rider error.  BTW, before anyone under 18 can ride at DP or Broad River BOTH parents have to sign a release.  If I take my son to Broad River,  I have to get my wife to sign the release and take it with me.  One parent just ain't enough...lol.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 29, 2006)

It's a done "deal". DP is back to operations as normal pending a few minor permits with the lodge kitchen, without the Freestyle ramps, and of course, the "deal" to let Greene county EMT's handle the emergencys and not the hired EMT service - hmmmmmm. It's odd to hear complaints at the beginning of the investigation that DP may be putting other parts of the county in jepordy using the Greene county EMT so often, then all of a sudden they want to be the exclusive service?   Another theory that takes rocket scientist abilities .... 

Either way, it's settled and I can't wait to take the family back!


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 29, 2006)

That does sound fishy.  Now they just have to do all this 7 more times to get rid of all the deadly areas...lol.


----------



## EON (Apr 29, 2006)

> there were 29 deaths in the 04-05 season related to hunting that involved kids under the age of 18. So by your logic we should not let kids hunt either.



No but most people don't let minors in the woods with guns unsupervised either.



> Kids are put in "harms way" everytime they are put into or get into an automobile from the day they are brought home from the hospital



Sure but you don't see anyone handing them the keys to take her for a spin.

I understand your passion, that's admirable. I wish Mike the best.  However his facilities are somewhat responable. Without the jump in place the one boy would have never attempted such a trick.  The girl that hit the tree apparnetly didn't have enough experiance to be allowed in an area with obstacles. 

Mike has or should have an beginners area and should know the experiance level of any kid before allowing them run wild.  Waviers are just a way to pass off responability to someone else.  If the parents really wanted to press the issue he could find himself in some deep legal battels.

Those kids should never have been allowed to be put into those situations.  And just to clear things up when I say kids, I'm primarly reffering to those under fifteen.


----------



## LAKOTA (Apr 29, 2006)

> Mike has or should have an beginners area and should know the experiance level of any kid before allowing them run wild.


*WHAT?!*

That is where you are wrong. There are plenty of beginner areas at DP. Several beginner trails and a beginner track. Mike and the staff do not run a daycare center. The PARENTS ultimately have the responsibility to NOT LEAVE a child alone. Anyone leaving thier child on a trail or track is an absolute senseless person as far as I'm concerned. No way I would leave my 8 yr old son you see in the above picture alone on a track or trail.


----------



## kudzumotorsports (Apr 29, 2006)




----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 30, 2006)

EON said:
			
		

> Without the jump in place the one boy would have never attempted such a trick. The girl that hit the tree apparnetly didn't have enough experiance to be allowed in an area with obstacles.
> 
> Mike has or should have an beginners area and should know the experiance level of any kid before allowing them run wild.


 
Lakota is right it's not a daycare.  

As far as the ramp,  anyone riding should be responsible enough to make those decisions or their parents should not have signed the release and let them out of their sight.  The ramps served their purpose and were safe to anyone into that type of jumps (the ramp didn't break).  

As far as the girl,  to my understanding she froze up on the drag strip and didn't let off the throttle (anyone know if that is correct?).  If that is the case,  even a beginner area would not have offered any safety.  You will eventually hit something if you don't back off of it or turn!

EON,  have you ever been to DP?  Do you ride recreationally at all?  I'm just curious because I don't think that most riding enthusiasts would get your point of view.


----------



## EON (Apr 30, 2006)

Lakota, did you read my post? I never said they didn't have a beginners area.

Kevin, I don't ride recreationaly, I do have one but it's used for hunting or work around the property.  I haven't been to DTP in several years, basically since the MX thing started.  But we used to ride there during the off hunting season which planted the idea in Mike's head he could make more $$$ off the bikes than the hunters.  

As for the girl freezing up, it's understandable.  But had she been instructed to go to a beginners area and checked out before being turned loose, then we may not be having this conservation.  Same with the kid on the ramp.  The other deaths I don't know much about but I was suprised to hear of eight.

Personnaly I think DPT needs to re-evulate how they turn kids loose before knowing they have the capacity to ride safely.  From everything I've heard and read it sounds like that piece is missing.


----------



## Kreed5821 (Apr 30, 2006)

EON said:
			
		

> ...But had she been instructed to go to a beginners area and checked out before being turned loose...
> Personnaly I think DPT needs to re-evulate how they turn kids loose before knowing they have the capacity to ride safely. From everything I've heard and read it sounds like that piece is missing.


 
How would that have saved her?  Once she got on the bike in a beginner's area wouldn't she be turned loose?

I don't think knowing someone's riding capacity should be DP's responsibility.  I'm an adult,  I go pay someone to let me ride,  I should be able to ride.   When I take my son I don't want somebody telling me that he can't ride because of his age or size or whatever. According to the recommendations for four wheelers,  my son started riding his 3 years too early!  People need to get off of the "it's not my fault" crap when it comes to their own decisions or those they make for their kids and take responsibility for themselves.


----------



## MICHAEL TAYLOR (May 1, 2006)

*Durhamtown*

The Responsibality In Any Activity Is The Parents And The Person Doing The Activity....they Pay Good Money To Partake In An Event, They Should Know The Risks Involved,  The Abilitys Of The Person, Before They Turn Them Loose,  Everyone Must Crawl Before They Run,  Why Is This Any Different??? I'v Been To Durhamtown, We'v Had An Accident There, And I Will Still Go Back, It Is The Best Place In The State To Learn At Your Own Pace,  When Will Everyone Take Responsability For Their Own Actions???


----------



## ponyboy (May 1, 2006)

Kreed5821 said:
			
		

> How would that have saved her?  Once she got on the bike in a beginner's area wouldn't she be turned loose?
> 
> I don't think knowing someone's riding capacity should be DP's responsibility.  I'm an adult,  I go pay someone to let me ride,  I should be able to ride.   When I take my son I don't want somebody telling me that he can't ride because of his age or size or whatever. According to the recommendations for four wheelers,  my son started riding his 3 years too early!  People need to get off of the "it's not my fault" crap when it comes to their own decisions or those they make for their kids and take responsibility for themselves.


  ..........


----------



## Kenny K (May 2, 2006)

EON said:
			
		

> Personnaly I think DPT needs to re-evulate how they turn kids loose before knowing they have the capacity to ride safely.  From everything I've heard and read it sounds like that piece is missing.




This issue is pretty much a done deal, but this arguement for just who is responsible for the kids and their safety and abilities just keeps resurfacing... 

That "missing" piece IS the responsibility of the PARENT or GUARDIAN or ADULT that BRINGS their child to Durhamtown. I have never seen anyone UNDER the legal driving age pull up at DP with their pickup truck and trailer with all their toys and pay their fees and ride. Believe it or not there ARE ADULTS that bring them. Children "running wild" is a discipline problem that the parents/guardians/adults have let go unchecked. It is not the place of anyone else to correct. Where is it Durhamtowns place to say "Keep up with your spoiled little snotty nosed kids so they won't get hurt or killed. And if they don't know how to ride properly, TAKE THEM BACK HOME!!!" Although, IF they posted a sign saying such, it JUST MIGHT make some irresponsible adults think about it. Maybe that would be good idea, to "weed out the morons" so to speak. This day and age everything has to be spelled out, because you can't assume the average person/customer has any common sense anymore.

As far as the warning signs and knowing the skill level of young riders before they are allowed to ride...When you go to an amusement park, you see all the warnings about High Blood Pressure, Heart Problems, Bad Backs, etc etc etc at the entrance to the major rides. Do parks require a physical exam BEFORE you enter their park to determine if you have any of these conditions and ban you from riding the rides with these warnings? No. You and only YOU know if you have these conditions, and its YOUR choice to ride the monster roller coaster or NOT.  If you ride it and have a KNOWN heart problem and die from a heart attack, who's fault is that? The park posted the warning. A decision to ride was made and the consequences wasn't so good. Sometimes it might even happen when someone DOESN'T KNOW their heart is about to explode. So who is responsible for the unknown factors? 

So in this same situation...what is Durhamtown to do? Make kids pass a riding test given by a qualified riding instructor in the beginners area before they are allowed to go ride anywhere else? Teenagers pass driving tests given by the State Patrol and usually with a officer riding in the car with them to get their drivers licence, and sometimes die the same day or a short time afterward in a car wreck. Still, the kid passed the test the experts gave them though, so the reason they died couldn't be from inexperience. If Durhamtown did this, and a kid died, then the BLAME would be on the instructor. First thing you would hear would be: "WELL the instructor said my kid was a good rider..but he/she had an accident and died anyway!!" See how ridiculous that sounds?

If Durhamtown had  hacked up, rutted up, or washed out trails and tracks, ramps that were cobbled up and fell apart, blind jumps or corners, maybe they could be held accountable. But they maintain all that really well. They DO THEIR PART. But thousands ride there day after day, and live to ride another day without injury. I guess they were just the lucky ones. 

We all make choices, be they good or bad. We are ultimately responsible for the outcome or end result, be it good or bad. For those of us that have children, we (the parents) are responsible for their actions until they are 18. At least that is what the law says. If those children aren't taught how to make good/smart decisions in life..... then I guess its ALL Mike McCommons' fault, because he is making a $.


----------

