# Dilute Labs



## Senior Vato (Jun 1, 2009)

Originally Posted by browning84  
Here ya go for some questions.

How do you test for the recessive/infamous silver gene or do you just look for the dogs with docked tails?

Was that a shot at the old stand by wiem cross? There is no documentation confirming that. Only internet mumble jumble. We search pedigees and look at the dogs.  Now, with the brood Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- and upcoming pups from improved lines we are bringing in an army of CH or CH sired pups to breed to these fine specimens.  With these breeding we will produce dilute factor pups that can walk in and steal the show and titles.  It's coming folks...believe it.  No different than the days of the fight for the yellows and the chocolates..  I suppose they just magically appeared with no other source...Just one day a couple of blacks got together and produce a chocolate and later a yellow..strange how that could happen and not be possible with a dilute.  I am certain there have been BYB's only there for a buck that have tried it, falsified records, but, it takes two generations of breedings to produce a dilute color like that..HMMM.  Check this out...

I know that accusation has come up in recent times (never at the time of the original "silver" controversy) -- but I spoke to the AKC rep who did the actual on-site investigation, and he told me "the guy has two Labs that live in the back of his pizza parlor, eat all the scraps and are fat as pigs." No mention of Weims at all. (BTW this was right after the original hoo-rah, when memories were still fresh, not 20+ years later.)

Also, I spoke to the breeder of the original Crist Culo dogs' sire, and he told me that dog's dam's sister (I think it was) had also produced "silver" puppies, as had a related dog on the other side of the pedigree. No Weims there....

Furthermore, the dilution factor is a simple recessive. The only way to produce "silver" puppies from a Lab/Weim cross is to make TWO generations of crosses to Weims. A single generation will not suffice -- unless the Lab already carries the dilution factor. 

I have encountered "silver" pedigrees with NO Crist Culo breeding -- both dogs I've seen myself and others. One line goes back to a famous chocolate Eng/Am.CH and BIS winner.... on both sides. That particular famous dog had the "grey cast" that I mentioned before. And how do you explain the 1960s/70s grey puppies from namebrand show breeders??

Also, searching for Weim pedigrees with "Culo" in the name (as one would expect to see) turns up nothing.

It's easy to blame Weim crossbreeding, but it's not supported by the facts or the pedigrees.

Who offers the test? 
International Genetics, Healthgene and more do the test, takes about a month to get your results.  When I breed a CH male lab to one of my dilute factor girls, we send blood and DNA swabs to them from all the pups.  In a month we know which ones carry the "d" gene..then we are ready to roll on.
How far back can you trace your “silver lines”?

We can trace the dilutes back to the original four lines..Culo, Beavercreek, and Huskers...all no relation to one another.

What is the registered name of the first recorded silver lab that you know of, who owned the breeding pair and where were/are they from? 

Spook Culo and Dudley Culo then followed beavercreek and Huskers

This may be hard to trace down because the AKC doesn’t allow the silver color you have to lie and call it chocolate.

AKC did allow you to enter your own color in a blank box up until the eighties.  Until the money from the LRC put pressure on them to limit it to BYC...again, where did yellow and chocolate come from..

come on man, thats too hard! you are not playing fair. 
That wasn't too hard now was it....the facts are out there.  People only want to beleive what suits them...


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

Why would you want to bring this topic back, also these are not all my quotes?


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## Big Jeep Wrangler (Jun 1, 2009)

I have seen another color come up here recently. It is a dark dilute yellow (champagne). Anybody seen one of these?


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

Senior Vato,

To my recollection every “Silver Lab” thread as ended in being locked and people getting feelings hurt and people crying to mods. Plain and simple “Silver Labs” are a cross breed, Weimardores  or Labramaraners.  End of story


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## hogdawg (Jun 1, 2009)

Senior Vato has gone LOCO!!


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)

I saw that color listed on a website....what a joke


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## Big Jeep Wrangler (Jun 1, 2009)

Yeah thats what I was thinking.

I could type all that crap too. I am a see it on paper kind of guy. Show me some documents of this crazy talk.


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## zzweims (Jun 1, 2009)

Senior Vato:

Were you the silver lab breeder from central Georgia who contacted me last year looking for a weim stud?  Seems I get at least one such request every year.

Oh, and it only takes one weim to make a silver lab.  Had a silver lab breeder explain it to me.  First gen, breed lab to weim.  Since silver is a double recessive, ALL pups will be carriers for the silver color.  Second gen, breed brother to sister, and voila--25/75-silver labs. (btw, the lab parent doesn't even have to be chocolate).  Keep inbreeding the silvers, and you will have 100% silver labs


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## ghill4 (Jun 1, 2009)

what an arguement.... I haven't seen a dilute lab yet. Not sayin that there isn't one. ^_^


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## RackNBeardOutdoors (Jun 1, 2009)

Senior Vato, 

I do like to take up for folks, but I'm afraid the Silver Lab is a weimeriner / Lab mix. You can definitly look at them and tell by there ears alone, labs don't have ears like weims do, and that is just 1 of the few characteristics that I mention. If you pay top dollar for one, that is your business, but you are just paying for the mix of the two. 

Best of Luck


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> Would you like to see one? I can send pictures or you can make a trip to monticello. We have dilute blacks " charcoals" dilute chocolates "silver" and dilute yellow " champagnes" and the other BYC colors



Idiot


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 1, 2009)

browning84 said:


> Idiot



agreed


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## hogdawg (Jun 1, 2009)

x2!!


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## Phantom2 (Jun 2, 2009)

Why do you guys waste your time with these closed minded GON inbreeds?  Head over to RTF.  As you've seen, at least a few of the folks there have the ability to cognizantly consider the possibilities when it comes to the reality of Silver Labrador Retriever (if I recall even ol' hogdawg was there last fall trying to figure out the whole Silver Lab thing).

zzweims, I'm sure I read over a year ago on Gun Dog Forum that you were only contacted "once" and that it was then "7 years ago".  Not sayin' it didn't happen, but if the story changes, it can't all be true.


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 2, 2009)

http://www.nationalhybridregistry.com/


I am sure you wont have a problem getting those "silver" labs registered there


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

Phantom2 said:


> Why do you guys waste your time with these closed minded GON inbreeds?  Head over to RTF.



Because it is more fun to berate the ignorant over here, then it is to have and or read cognitive thoughts on RTF.


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## zzweims (Jun 2, 2009)

Phantom2 said:


> zzweims, I'm sure I read over a year ago on Gun Dog Forum that you were only contacted "once" and that it was then "7 years ago".  Not sayin' it didn't happen, but if the story changes, it can't all be true.



That is correct.  It was the only time someone actually brought a lab to my house for breeding to my weim stud.  It was also the first time I had ever heard about silver labs.  I have been contacted by phone and email several times since then.


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## zzweims (Jun 2, 2009)

3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> Would you like to see one? I can send pictures or you can make a trip to monticello. We have dilute blacks " charcoals" dilute chocolates "silver" and dilute yellow " champagnes" and the other BYC colors



That's what we call culls.


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## ghill4 (Jun 2, 2009)

This is all interestin, does anyone have a pic of one, I wanna see what they look like lol i havent seen one b4


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

Google it, it's not hard to find them. If in doubt always Google it


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## BOB_HARWELL (Jun 2, 2009)

Isn't the Fox Red Lab a Lab/Vizsla cross??

                 BOB


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

nope


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## Phantom2 (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> Because it is more fun to berate the ignorant over here, then it is to have and or read cognitive thoughts on RTF.


You misread.  
It wasn't the silver breeders I was referring to as being "closed minded GON inbreeds".


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

Phantom2 said:


> You misread.
> It wasn't the silver breeders I was referring to as being "closed minded GON inbreeds".



O, yea I invite all silver breeders to go to RTF and I won’t say a word but will enjoy the show, because if you think I am mean you have yet to find a whole group up people that will bless you up and down, if you breed silvers. Go for it.


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## hogdawg (Jun 2, 2009)

Phantom2 said:


> Why do you guys waste your time with these closed minded GON inbreeds?  Head over to RTF.  As you've seen, at least a few of the folks there have the ability to cognizantly consider the possibilities when it comes to the reality of Silver Labrador Retriever (if I recall even ol' hogdawg was there last fall trying to figure out the whole Silver Lab thing).
> 
> zzweims, I'm sure I read over a year ago on Gun Dog Forum that you were only contacted "once" and that it was then "7 years ago".  Not sayin' it didn't happen, but if the story changes, it can't all be true.



Yeah Casper and I found out everything I needed to know about em'.  I bet you are a popular guy over there at RTF.  How ironic you chose the word inbred to describe us GONers.

Pass the popcorn browning, this is gonna be good.


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

hogdawg said:


> Yeah Casper and I found out everything I needed to know about em'.  I bet you are a popular guy over there at RTF.  How ironic you chose the word inbred to describe us GONers.
> 
> Pass the popcorn browning, this is gonna be good.




op2:


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## coachwillow (Jun 2, 2009)

zzweims said:


> That is correct.  It was the only time someone actually brought a lab to my house for breeding to my weim stud.  It was also the first time I had ever heard about silver labs.  I have been contacted by phone and email several times since then.



Why would anyone breed their weim stud to a different breed dog????  Why would they want to create a mixed breed dog in the first place? I can't get over how you think it was alright to breed your weim to a lab??????? That's like Jessicay breeding her yellow dilute male lab to a poodle. Why would you allow someone to breed to your male to make mixed breed dogs when millions lose their lives in shelters every year. Did you do it for the money???

And all y'all want to talk about bettering the breeds. What a joke.


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## Phantom2 (Jun 3, 2009)

hogdawg said:


> How ironic you chose the word inbred to describe us GONers.


The irony is in the hypocrisy of your statement.  
Inbred humans being critical of inbred canines.


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## hogdawg (Jun 3, 2009)

So you admit they are inbred.  FINALLY a supporter with some sense!!  And just because I married my 2nd cousin, don't mean I'm inbred... or does it?  On a more serious note, If you yourself have gone through or are going through anything with a relative, feel free to talk openly here.  As you have stated, we've all been there and we are very supportive.


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## zzweims (Jun 3, 2009)

coachwillow said:


> Why would anyone breed their weim stud to a different breed dog????  Why would they want to create a mixed breed dog in the first place? I can't get over how you think it was alright to breed your weim to a lab??????? That's like Jessicay breeding her yellow dilute male lab to a poodle. Why would you allow someone to breed to your male to make mixed breed dogs when millions lose their lives in shelters every year. Did you do it for the money???
> 
> And all y'all want to talk about bettering the breeds. What a joke.



I turned the woman away.


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## zzweims (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> I found this statement wrote by you ZZ, I find it funny how you changed your opinion about this. One day someone is coming to your house to breed to your Weim and the next day you think the silver is a recessive gene. Make up you mind ZZ.
> 
> *Honestly Jessicay, I don't disagree with you. I would be thrilled for you if you could put some serious field titles on your dogs. I'd even send you puppy buyers if you did. IMO, there is no such thing as the wrong color on the right dog. Heck, silver is a recessive gene that could be erradicated in a single generation, if someone prefered a different color. Bring your pup to my farm sometime and we'll shoot quail and pheasant over the pond. (sorry, I don't have any pen ducks). In the meantime, there are several retriever trials and hunt tests coming up. Get your older dogs out there and compete with the big boys. Prove 'em wrong.
> 
> Here's info and directions to our farm http://sitekreator.com/zzfarms Don't forget the Margarita mix!*




Silver IS a recessive gene.  It doesn't matter what breed carries it (weims, dobes, etc.).  The only way to get the color is to breed to a carrier. Do labs carry the silver gene?  I don't know.  I'm not a lab person.  I DO know that silver lab breeders have contacted me to breed to my weims.  Why would they do that if they could get the color without cross breeding?

As for the statement above, I was trying to be nice.  I don't care if your dogs are purple.  Of all the genetic faults out there, color is the easiest to fix.  Health, temperament, comformation, hunting ability, etc. take a lot more time and dedication.  You claim that you breed for these qualities and not just color.  I invited you to prove it.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 3, 2009)

Last night there was someone on the Letterman show bragging about his 
"red fox Labrador"  ---- bright red coat.

Wonder where that "recessive" gene came from.



> That's like Jessicay breeding her yellow dilute male lab to a poodle.



Already been done, search "labradoodle."  You have to give those folks credit for being upfront about the crossbreeding.

What's ironic about this whole discussion is that the Weimaraner and Labrador, and most other hunting breeds, are the result of extensive out-crossing, primarily in the 19th century. The difference is that folks were up front about it.  In fact, it was considered the "smart" thing to do.


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## zzweims (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> I have tried my best to stay off this thread, but this statement is a bunch of Bull CRAP!!
> 
> , I have just realized what you wrote here.  Do you mind sending me the contact info on this person. I would LOVE to contact them, if they really do exist.



It was many years ago.  I don't recall her name.  She was very polite and told me that she had or was starting a breeding business with her daughter.  I lived in Eatonton at the time, and the woman got my name from the local vet.  Try calling Dr. Brenda Manley.  She's in your local phone book.  I'm sure that she could provide you with the information.


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## chadf (Jun 3, 2009)

tip toeing away now ?

Provide the info!


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## contender* (Jun 3, 2009)

91xjgawes said:


> http://www.nationalhybridregistry.com/
> 
> 
> I am sure you wont have a problem getting those "silver" labs registered there



WOW! This site is a joke. As a Beagle owner/breeder the following really get my blood pressure up!!
Beagle / Jack Russell Terrier  ---	Jack-A-Bee
Beagle / Cocker Spaniel 	      ------  Bocker
Beagle / Min Pinscher 	             -------   Meagle
Beagle / Poodle 	                     -------   Poogle
Beagle / Pug 	                       ------- Puggle


Along with the Beagle / Basset mixes


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)

If you look at any old pictures of any breed of dog they have evolved and their makeup is in general slightly different, this is due to years of progression to improve the breed, whatever that breed may be. But once breeds are established and recognized as a breed and breeding is done only by those alike breed types then the breed must progress from dogs that have proven themselves to be better than another and have desirable characteristics that will improve the breed. This means the Labrador Retrieve does not need the introduction of a weirmaraner to create an undesirable color to better the breed. If this were to occur naturally which genetically it shouldn’t but for argument sake if it were the dog should have been culled, in todays standards that would mean sold as a limited registrant to a pet home with a neuter spay agreement, or the breeder should keep it and OB train the dog until it can ethically be clipped and sold as a OB trained dog to a family in need of a pet or possibly sell to a cop to train as a working/bomb/scent/ect dog. Either way you look at it Silver is not for betterment whether it be inbred or genetic defect the dog shouldn’t go on to breed period. This is a designer type dog and people pay money and big money at that for these “RARE” colors.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

zzweims said:


> I turned the woman away.



Yeah I am sure you did..... I guess that's why she brought the lab to your house.... Just for you to turn her away.....

But regardless if you didn't do it. It still crossed your mind.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

chadf said:


> tip toeing away now ?
> 
> Provide the info!



That's exactly what they need to do... For all we know they could just be blowing smoke up our butts....


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

browning84 said:


> If you look at any old pictures of any breed of dog they have evolved and their makeup is in general slightly different, this is due to years of progression to improve the breed, whatever that breed may be. But once breeds are established and recognized as a breed and breeding is done only by those alike breed types then the breed must progress from dogs that have proven themselves to be better than another and have desirable characteristics that will improve the breed. This means the Labrador Retrieve does not need the introduction of a weirmaraner to create an undesirable color to better the breed. If this were to occur naturally which genetically it shouldn’t but for argument sake if it were the dog should have been culled, in todays standards that would mean sold as a limited registrant to a pet home with a neuter spay agreement, or the breeder should keep it and OB train the dog until it can ethically be clipped and sold as a OB trained dog to a family in need of a pet or possibly sell to a cop to train as a working/bomb/scent/ect dog. Either way you look at it Silver is not for betterment whether it be inbred or genetic defect the dog shouldn’t go on to breed period. This is a designer type dog and people pay money and big money at that for these “RARE” colors.



I guess thats why the yellows and chocolates shouldnt have been bred to begin with or even the awful word culled....... You forget the people that bred yellow and chocolates long ago were fighting the battle jessicay and other dilute breeders are fighting now...


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2009)

coachwillow said:


> I guess thats why the yellows and chocolates shouldnt have been bred to begin with or even the awful word culled....... You forget the people that bred yellow and chocolates long ago were fighting the battle jessicay and other dilute breeders are fighting now...



except for the fact that yellows and chocolates occur naturally...


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

91xjgawes said:


> except for the fact that yellows and chocolates occur naturally...



So did the silvers.... I am sure those labrador breeders that bred only black back in the day said the same thing about yellow and chocolate.

Labradors Black, Yellow, Chocolate, and dilutes all come naturally. They are pushed through the females vagina. But thanks for trying to give us a science lesson.


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)




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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2009)

coachwillow said:


> So did the silvers.... I am sure those labrador breeders that bred only black back in the day said the same thing about yellow and chocolate.
> 
> Labradors Black, Yellow, Chocolate, and dilutes all come naturally. They are pushed through the females vagina. But thanks for trying to give us a science lesson.



im glad you found that SO funny...

no one should be breeding for color, must less a DILUTED color...


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

Coach... I don't think zzweims did breed that combination. All she is saying is that she has been asked. I could be wrong, but I don't think so   She and her hubby are fine Weim breeders and those dogs hunt!

Julia

PS: I didn't read further before I answered... but anyhow, I am glad now I KNOW zzweims didn't do that breeding 



coachwillow said:


> Why would anyone breed their weim stud to a different breed dog???? Why would they want to create a mixed breed dog in the first place? I can't get over how you think it was alright to breed your weim to a lab??????? That's like Jessicay breeding her yellow dilute male lab to a poodle. Why would you allow someone to breed to your male to make mixed breed dogs when millions lose their lives in shelters every year. Did you do it for the money???
> 
> And all y'all want to talk about bettering the breeds. What a joke.


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

Just for the record... I know dilute labs are supposed to be valuable because of color, but I also know folks who get really GOOD prices for their pups while remaining within the current standard for their Labs, and these on limited registrations. Also, Lab breeders who train and compete are selling valuable animals 

So, there are more important things than color to breed for in any animal. I have fought this never-ending battle before... in the realm of Arabian horses and there is no winner... just lots of folks who don't breed for the right things. Conformation, ability (whether hunting or other things), breed type, etc. are much more important than color. I would not care if my Arabians came out purple with green polka dots as long as they were high quality and could stand up against any other Arabians in ability and beauty of conformation and type 

I know this arguement, and it is sad that it shows up in one of the world's nicest dogs!! (And I am a GSP person, not Weims or Labs... but I like all of them and this color breeding demeans any breed of animal, be it horse, dog, or whatever else!)

Just my small and unimportant opinion 

Julia


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## Phantom2 (Jun 3, 2009)

Who ever said breeding for color was wrong?  All Lab breeders do it.  If they didn't their websites would say, "we sell Labs" and that would be the end of it.  In my experience, the biggest "color breeders" in Labs are the field trial/hunt test breeders.  How many dogs at those events are Black...if I had a nickle for every time I've heard or read the phrase "Black is the only Color" I'd be wealthy enough to afford any top dollar Silver Lab.  Talk about a bigoted mentality, shheeeeshhh!
As for the comment regarding the breeding of Silver not improving on the breed...you've gotta be blind!  Gray is natures all weather, all terrain shade.  For a hunting dog, you couldn't ask for anything better...unless you "only" hunt at midnight with a Black..or "only" in fall cornfields with a Yellow...or in Hershey PA with a Chocolate!  Seriously though, there is no better natural all purpose camouflage than gray.  Hence we use the phrase "Shade of gray" for things that are not clearly discernible.  Silver is an obvious color improvement to make a fine hunting dog that much better at being the total package hunting machine.  
Whether they admit it or not, color has a place in every breeders breeding decision.  It is pretty obvious that there are many Silver breeders that place that decision too high and overlook important things like temperament and instinct...but from what I've learned about the Silver breeders that have been posting here, they are like any other good Lab breeder, they are improving their dogs, willing to use any color to get what they desire if need be.  At the end of the day, they just happen to prefer Silver; just as some breeder prefer Black and others prefer Yellow.


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

You misquote me.... Certainly if the QUALITY of the horse was evident for what Mr. Magraw might want it for I may sell... but I did not, do not, would never, breed for color and sell for that purpose... My point was that COLOR DOES NOT MATTER. WHAT THE STANDARD states for whatever breed of horse or dog IS what matters... Please don't twist around my posts to match the dilute producers' claims  




3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> So you mean to tell me if you produced this purple horse and Lets say Tim magraw calls you and say hey Julia how much do you want for you purple horse? You reply its not for sell. He said how about 300,000 you know you wouldn't turn down that money.


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

Phantom, if the color breeders are breeding for silver because it is higher quality dogs... are there any Field Champions, Hunt Test winners, etc. that we might enjoy hearing about?

I like bay horses. I like grey horses... I like liver GSP (my chosen breed) better than black, but that does not mean I would never have a black if the dog itself was what I wanted at the time 

My only arguement here is that it is a mistake to breed for color because it tends to leave out more important qualities....

zzweims is lucky... her dogs are all the same color, so she just works on and with quality in the field!

I would like to hear from the Lab breeders out there, who are not breeding for dilutes, who are breeding for just blacks or just yellows or chocolates,  and getting the highest quality dogs who can perform in the show ring or field (since they are already accepted colors).  And, I say OR because performance folk don't always show.... and then let the dilute folk match what they have done at least in performance with their dilute dogs. I know it is possible... but a color breeder won't try.... except to get the color. I think that is the basis of the whole problem 

Julia


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

91xjgawes said:


> im glad you found that SO funny...
> 
> no one should be breeding for color, must less a DILUTED color...



Actually I found it quite funny as some others did too. I guess you didn't find it to funny because it was towards you. But it's ok maybe browning and some of your buddies will find something funny to say about the dilute breeders.

Whoever says they don't breed for color are full of a bunch of you know what. ALL labrador breeders breed for color in some shape or form. But why would a breeder breed if one of his reasons was not for color? I think you should have high quality dogs with good examples to the breed, temperaments, ofas, cerf, eic and ect but breeders also breed for color. It shouldn't be their first priority but is should be something on their list.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

Phantom2 said:


> Who ever said breeding for color was wrong?  All Lab breeders do it.  If they didn't their websites would say, "we sell Labs" and that would be the end of it.  In my experience, the biggest "color breeders" in Labs are the field trial/hunt test breeders.  How many dogs at those events are Black...if I had a nickle for every time I've heard or read the phrase "Black is the only Color" I'd be wealthy enough to afford any top dollar Silver Lab.  Talk about a bigoted mentality, shheeeeshhh!
> As for the comment regarding the breeding of Silver not improving on the breed...you've gotta be blind!  Gray is natures all weather, all terrain shade.  For a hunting dog, you couldn't ask for anything better...unless you "only" hunt at midnight with a Black..or "only" in fall cornfields with a Yellow...or in Hershey PA with a Chocolate!  Seriously though, there is no better natural all purpose camouflage than gray.  Hence we use the phrase "Shade of gray" for things that are not clearly discernible.  Silver is an obvious color improvement to make a fine hunting dog that much better at being the total package hunting machine.
> Whether they admit it or not, color has a place in every breeders breeding decision.  It is pretty obvious that there are many Silver breeders that place that decision too high and overlook important things like temperament and instinct...but from what I've learned about the Silver breeders that have been posting here, they are like any other good Lab breeder, they are improving their dogs, willing to use any color to get what they desire if need be.  At the end of the day, they just happen to prefer Silver; just as some breeder prefer Black and others prefer Yellow.



Agreed Phantom.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> If I remember correctly your dog came from a chocolateXyellow breeding, right?



Right... Here are some other  things he has posted...

1. 2 yellows will not always have yellow pups. they may not have any yellow pups... 

Funny he says that.... Since 2 yellows will always make yellow.

2.im not trying to discredit you, and i myself dont know a whole lot about the lab/gene issue.

Then why are you on this thread tell us that yellow and chocolate come naturally... hummm but silver didnt....

3.i guess what i was saying is that just because both dogs are yellow does not mean they will throw yellow pups, they both have to be yellow, and carry only yellow genes.


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

Instead of these long diatribes over color, why don't the dilute breeders unite, fill their websites with pedigrees and be up front about parentage of their dogs, etc. and then work toward acceptance at AKC?  Folks who breed black GSPs are actively working for show acceptance of that color because right now the black GSP is only allowed to get performance titles in AKC. 

It's a lot of work, but if the pedigrees are pure, they should proudly post them. Back to my horses... I can trace every horse I bred for 20+ generations. They were Straight Egyptian Arabians, so at times I had to show that my pedigrees were pure... I was happy to do it, and had a large research database (still have it, just not online) to prove anything I was asked. Why can't the dilute breeders show that. I expect AKC would listen if they did....

As to Yellow, Chocolate, Black... they are accepted in the Standard, so within that parameter... color can of course be part of the decision  You are very correct in that statement.... 

Julia




coachwillow said:


> Actually I found it quite funny as some others did too. I guess you didn't find it to funny because it was towards you. But it's ok maybe browning and some of your buddies will find something funny to say about the dilute breeders.
> 
> Whoever says they don't breed for color are full of a bunch of you know what. ALL labrador breeders breed for color in some shape or form. But why would a breeder breed if one of his reasons was not for color? I think you should have high quality dogs with good examples to the breed, temperaments, ofas, cerf, eic and ect but breeders also breed for color. It shouldn't be their first priority but is should be something on their list.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

AKC does accept the dilutes. They are registered to what color they are. Dilute Chocolate (Silver) is registered as chocolate. Same as a fox red labrador is registered as yellow. There is no difference. Dilute breeders are ok that AKC accepts three colors in labradors. Black, Yellow and Chocolate. Because that is what they are. Black, Yellow and Chocolate. Dilute breeders are honest about the parentage. What are you trying to say? The dilutes pedigrees are pure. Most breeders will show you the pedigrees.


JuliaH said:


> Instead of these long diatribes over color, why don't the dilute breeders unite, fill their websites with pedigrees and be up front about parentage of their dogs, etc. and then work toward acceptance at AKC?  Folks who breed black GSPs are actively working for show acceptance of that color because right now the black GSP is only allowed to get performance titles in AKC.
> 
> It's a lot of work, but if the pedigrees are pure, they should proudly post them. Back to my horses... I can trace every horse I bred for 20+ generations. They were Straight Egyptian Arabians, so at times I had to show that my pedigrees were pure... I was happy to do it, and had a large research database (still have it, just not online) to prove anything I was asked. Why can't the dilute breeders show that. I expect AKC would listen if they did....
> 
> ...


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2009)

coachwillow said:


> Right... Here are some other  things he has posted...
> 
> 1. 2 yellows will not always have yellow pups. they may not have any yellow pups...
> 
> ...



you actually took the time to find all of that?

I am def not an expert, never said i was hence number 2 on your "list".

but what i do know is that it takes something other than 2 labs to get a so called silver lab...


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 3, 2009)

> AKC does accept the dilutes



Really? 

How so?

I'll bet you can't show one in a conformation show (the root word there being "conform"-- and the conforming being to a breed standard).

I have two blue weims (rescue dogs, didn't breed them), and they are both AKC registered but I can't begin to take them to an AKC conformation show.  One of them is a killer dog in conformation in everything except color.

So, yes, AKC will take your money to register your "dilute" dog, but you can't show them in the company of standard dogs.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

91xjgawes said:


> you actually took the time to find all of that?
> 
> I am def not an expert, never said i was hence number 2 on your "list".
> 
> but what i do know is that it takes something other than 2 labs to get a so called silver lab...



I figured you was going to say that I took the time. Talk about time... Most of you have way to much time than I do. Like a bunch of girls.  GOSSIP. But then that male gene comes out where y'all all try and be a bunch of bullies. 

This is your typical woodys member  a bully behind a computer... Thinking of another mean thing to say.

It don't take something other than 2 labs to get silver. It's simple 

1 dilute lab + 1 dilute lab = a whole litter of dilute labradors.


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2009)

ohhh boy


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

You are right. Dilutes can not be shown in confirmation. But then again neither can yellows with a liver nose because it is not accepted by them. But I guess they are not purebred either... What was I thinking? As you can see a black will win 90% of the time over a yellow and chocolate. Why? Because they think the same thing about yellow and chocolate that you think about the dilutes.... But I can tell you that they can compete in hunt test.




Twenty five ought six said:


> Really?
> 
> How so?
> 
> ...


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> I already offered that over 24 hours ago, but once I stepped up and said I would put my dogs to the test, the room got really really quite. What do we say now......
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by browning84
> ...



This is not my responsibility, it is your job to prove the lineage of a controversial color and prove some people wrong but you know you are wrong and you also know no one will pay the bill for the test for you therefore you will further breed these mutt with no proof of their actually not being all lab.


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2009)

3.5 YR-OLD BAMBI said:


> Everyone pool your money up and I will do a canine heritage test and if my dilutes come back pure then all of you need to bow down.
> Go do some reasearch there are more that one common dog in the weim background that is the same as the lab. It could have been brought in way back. Keep in mind the english labs and the amercan labs have some different foundation dogs. It could have can in with the english lines.



jessicay wrote this, deleted it, then you wrote it...?

just wondering what happened


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

LOL Jessicay.... breeding knowledge surpasses what kind of animal it is..... study, openness about bloodlines, etc., knowing what you have, and what you need, and much more. I am glad I am  not a Lab breeder... and my experience goes a long way back with the horses, so that is what I use to compare... but good breeding practices is the same, no matter what animal.... we could be talking lab rats too, if we know their heritage and WILL SHARE it


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## JuliaH (Jun 3, 2009)

Browning... I agree with you, but it is hard to get facts thru heads that only care about color.  You test your dogs, work your dogs... that is something most of us can respect 

Julia


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 3, 2009)

> You are right. Dilutes can not be shown in confirmation. But then again neither can yellows with a liver nose because it is not accepted by them. But I guess they are not purebred either... What was I thinking? As you can see a black will win 90% of the time over a yellow and chocolate. Why? Because they think the same thing about yellow and chocolate that you think about the dilutes.... But I can tell you that they can compete in hunt test.



And your point is what?

I have competed one of my "blues" in  a hunt test.  So what?  They still don't meet the standard for Weimaraners.  There is no way that I would hold my blues out as "standard" weims, just because I can register them with the AKC.

A standard is what it says, a standard.  Either a dog meets it or it doesn't.  I have had pet quality pups that in my opinion had too large a white blaze on their chest (which BTW came from the sire, not the momma, which was my dog) and I was perfectly up front with the buyers in telling them that the puppies could be registered with the AKC, but that they were not "standard."  

The Labrador standard says there are three colors, any other dog is not standard -- that's the way that it is.  Want to change the standard, do like the GSP folks and go for it.

No matter how you want to dance around it, the "silver" labs are  not "standard" and that needs to be disclosed in all discussions of them.


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## maker4life (Jun 3, 2009)

Since Julia mentioned the black GSP's I want to expand on that and tie it in with the silver labs . As far as the black GSP's go they can be traced all the way back to the original German stud books . The dogs and breeders that first produced blacks are listed and black is an accepted color in Europe . Here in the states our standard excludes blacks . The only reason being is because  the first GSP's imported didn't come from the black lineage therefore we just never had black dogs and created our standard accordingly . Although we don't have the blacks we know who first entered them and where they came from , Arkwright Pointer breeding .

My question is can the silver labs , like the black GSP's , be traced to ANY official stud book registry for the history of the breed ? Is there ANY recognized entry that accepts and acknowledges silver ?


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)

I think at this point all I can do is just shake my head. I will never get thing right with some of you; I am tired of beating this dead horse.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

Look grape lady. If you forgot everyone on this forum has said that you should prove the dog. Well if they are in the field doing hunt test and getting titles thats bettering the breed. I don't know much about weims and dont care to. I have not said that all the silvers are show quality. I did not say the dilutes were not the three colors that akc recognize. They are BLACK, YELLOW AND CHOCOLATE. What is so hard to understand about that? I am not dancing around anything. I have answered all questions and plus some. Its other people on this forum who are dancing around questions. OR just not posting and hiding out...

Since you have bred did you do all health clearances on your breeding stock? OFAs and such? 



Twenty five ought six said:


> And your point is what?
> 
> I have competed one of my "blues" in  a hunt test.  So what?  They still don't meet the standard for Weimaraners.  There is no way that I would hold my blues out as "standard" weims, just because I can register them with the AKC.
> 
> ...


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said;




> My replay to Browning 84
> 
> I think the test you are talking about costs 150 dollars if you want to buy me two tests and send them to me I will send them in. I will do my dilute chocolate (silver) and I will do one my CH sired girls. I know your next question is going to be, "I should want to prove my dogs are full blooded," right? Why should I spend my money to prove something that I already know. I KNOW my dogs are full blooded labs PERIOD. Why did you make this again about the color??? I was asking about health test.
> Reply With Quote



I'll pay for the tests as long as I can do the swabs and take pictures of the dogs that are tested.  You can PM me with the details.


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## 91xjgawes (Jun 3, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> jessicay said;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

Twenty five ought six said:


> jessicay said;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jessicay ~ go figure a person that owns weims wants to do the swabs of the dogs that is tested. 

BTW you didn't answer my ?


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 3, 2009)

> Since you have bred did you do all health clearances on your breeding stock? OFAs and such?



Absolutely.  You can take that to the bank.  In fact, I was doing OFA's on my original stud before doing OFA's was really cool.  I guaranteed every puppies health for one year, and their hips for life.

Then I did screening on potential purchasers.  Anyone who didn't meet my standards didn't get to purchase a pup.  Also whether or not a pup met breed standards, and the consequences, were fully disclosed to every purchaser.  Fact is most purchasers don't have any intention of ever showing a dog in a confirmation show, but they appreciate the candor in a breeder in being up front.

I'm not talking about the day before yesterday like a lot of the people here, I'm talking about 35 years ago.



> I did not say the dilutes were not the three colors that akc recognize. They are BLACK, YELLOW AND CHOCOLATE.



Fine, pick out a local dog show (I'll help you if you don't know how), I'll pay the entry fee, and let's see how the judges treat your "dilute."  I think that you will find that "dilute" becomes "dq'ed" -- no matter how much you misrepresent the facts to the AKC, no one on the ground is going to accept a "dilute", red, gray, polk dotted, as "black, yellow, or chocolate."


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> PM sent



PM replied to.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

I am very glad to hear that. Really. 

I did find it interesting I found 2 silver factored champions... And guess what they will do. They can be bred to dilute have half the litter will be dilute. Is that not neat??






Twenty five ought six said:


> Absolutely.  You can take that to the bank.  In fact, I was doing OFA's on my original stud before doing OFA's was really cool.  I guaranteed every puppies health for one year, and their hips for life.
> 
> Then I did screening on potential purchasers.  Anyone who didn't meet my standards didn't get to purchase a pup.  Also whether or not a pup met breed standards, and the consequences, were fully disclosed to every purchaser.  Fact is most purchasers don't have any intention of ever showing a dog in a confirmation show, but they appreciate the candor in a breeder in being up front.
> 
> ...


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## coachwillow (Jun 4, 2009)

jessicay said:


> browning I thought you left this thread, why do I keep seeing you.
> Are you stalking me?


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## NGaHunter (Jun 4, 2009)

How about if I collect the swabs?  always here to help.  Also wanted to again invited all retreiver owners out to train with us this Saturday.  Come On...Gunz up!


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## waterdogs (Jun 4, 2009)

Hey, D  do I need to bring some ducks. Let me know. O by the way, You are the only one I know on here. Hope Browning can make it so I can meet him.  Seems like someone thinks he is a duddy of mine.


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## browning84 (Jun 4, 2009)

waterdogs said:


> Hey, D  do I need to bring some ducks. Let me know. O by the way, You are the only one I know on here. Hope Browning can make it so I can meet him.  Seems like someone thinks he is a duddy of mine.



you can't handle the truth.


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## CedarSwampRetrievers (Jun 4, 2009)

Actually you can show a liver pigmented yellow. It would have to be a really good dog as the darker pigment is preferred by the stndard. Lack of pigment--PINK nose and eye rims-- a dq. There is a difference.


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## waterdogs (Jun 4, 2009)

browning84 said:


> you can't handle the truth.



I meant BUDDY< NOT DUDDY


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## bigrob82 (Jun 6, 2009)

well i hate to het in this but i have a good friend that breeds labs and in the last litter off of his akc dogs because that is all he has there was three brindle pups so it is possible for them to thro other colors i know from seeing three great brindled labs


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## JuliaH (Jun 6, 2009)

Hi 

Looks like it is possible... it is hard to argue this color thing over and over for me too... but here is the info from AKC... 

*



Color
The Labrador Retriever coat colors are black, yellow and chocolate. Any other color or a combination of colors is a disqualification. A small white spot on the chest is permissible, but not desirable. White hairs from aging or scarring are not to be misinterpreted as brindling. Black--Blacks are all black. A black with brindle markings or a black with tan markings is a disqualification. Yellow--Yellows may range in color from fox-red to light cream, with variations in shading on the ears, back, and underparts of the dog. Chocolate--Chocolates can vary in shade from light to dark chocolate. Chocolate with brindle or tan markings is a disqualification.
		
Click to expand...

*


bigrob82 said:


> well i hate to het in this but i have a good friend that breeds labs and in the last litter off of his akc dogs because that is all he has there was three brindle pups so it is possible for them to thro other colors i know from seeing three great brindled labs


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## urdaddyjeep (Jun 7, 2009)

Never seen a silver lab and IMO dont care to.. All the labs I have ever owned were black, choc, and yellow.. guess having a silver is like owning a lab/pug..


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