# If God is not real.....



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

If God is not real,why have all civilizations and tribes since the dawn of history felt the deep need to worship something bigger than themselves? Way before written languages? when did this "evolve"? Do even the most intelligent apes even vaguely feel the need to worship?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> If God is not real,why have all civilizations and tribes since the dawn of history felt the deep need to worship something bigger than themselves? Way before written languages? when did this "evolve"? Do even the most intelligent apes even vaguely feel the need to worship?




Because it just seems realistic that what's here has to be connected to a greater being.


----------



## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> If God is not real,why have all civilizations and tribes since the dawn of history felt the deep need to worship something bigger than themselves? Way before written languages? when did this "evolve"? Do even the most intelligent apes even vaguely feel the need to worship?



It all begins as nature worship. If you need rain look to the sky and ask for rain. If you want your crops to grow look to the ground and ask for growth. As for the apes they don't possess the intelligence to know what produces their needs.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> It all begins as nature worship. If you need rain look to the sky and ask for rain. If you want your crops to grow look to the ground and ask for growth. As for the apes they don't possess the intelligence to know what produces their needs.


it all begins with nature worship--  Yes, I said they felt the need to worship something bigger than themselves.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Because it just seems realistic that what's here has to be connected to a greater being.


Great answer, Ronnie T. they seem to be laying low on this one.........


----------



## christianhunter (Nov 25, 2009)

No,you have to provoke them.
Like this,they can't provide any intelligent argument,so they are afraid to respond.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> No,you have to provoke them.
> Like this,they can't provide any intelligent argument,so they are afraid to respond.


Hey there christianhunter, haven't talked to ya in a while Have a great thanksgiving and CHRISTmas!


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

Because it is pretty easy to look around at just how big the universe is, and how vast space is, and not feel small or insignificant.  Fragile even.
It is a basic fundamental of human thought, the individual quest to find the meaning of life.
Worship?  I think worship comes well after a belief.  Anything else is just lip service or going though the motions to fit in with the crowd one finds themselves in.
For some it is more a reaction to or fear of the unknown, and a desire to be protected by something.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Because it is pretty easy to look around at just how big the universe is, and how vast space is, and not feel small or insignificant.  Fragile even.
> It is a basic fundamental of human thought, the individual quest to find the meaning of life.
> Worship?  I think worship comes well after a belief.  Anything else is just lip service or going though the motions to fit in with the crowd one finds themselves in.
> For some it is more a reaction to or fear of the unknown, and a desire to be protected by something.


wise words, my friend, but still I ask,where did this urge come from? this "desire to be protected by something"?  and yes,it is pretty easy to look around and be in total awe of existence, this is what has always seperated us from animals.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

The human psyche is pretty complex.  Maslow did some extrodinary work there.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The human psyche is pretty complex.  Maslow did some extrodinary work there.


I'm not familiar with the name,but I will be soon!


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 25, 2009)

Hint: Hierarchy of needs...


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

Freud also did extensive work on this.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Nov 25, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> If God is not real,why have all civilizations and tribes since the dawn of history felt the deep need to worship something bigger than themselves?


Are you sure they all have?  At any rate my understanding is religion is either one of two things:
a) a clever scheme devised to control the behavior of a populace or group (think of it as an early competitor to law)

b) man's attempt to deal with the awareness of the fate that awaits each of us - death

I'm not sure which it is.



Gatorcountry said:


> Do even the most intelligent apes even vaguely feel the need to worship?



I doubt it.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/nx4UEe98EkY&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/nx4UEe98EkY&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Hint: Hierarchy of needs...


Oh yeah, the pyramid of self-actualization! I had to dig through alot of books for that one. His findings seem to be concurrent with the Genesis story, although he may be a bit 
partial, being a Jew,and all.......


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> Oh yeah, the pyramid of self-actualization! I had to dig through alot of books for that one. His findings seem to be concurrent with the Genesis story, although he may be a bit
> partial, being a Jew,and all.......




What does it matter his ethnicity or heritage?  Does it matter to you for some reason?

By the way, he was an Atheist.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> What does it matter his ethnicity or heritage?  Does it matter to you for some reason?
> 
> By the way, he was an Atheist.



You missed the point he was making.


----------



## earl (Nov 26, 2009)

God, at least by the Christian definition hasn't been around all that long. The Jewish God has. The Pagan Gods have. The Greek Gods have . I imagine the African, Oriental,Native American have too. Mine has too. 
Sorry if I missed your point.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 26, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You missed the point he was making.



There was one?



Freud discussed the human desire for answers to questions of the unknown and how that desire developed into a supreme father figure type of deity to provide those answers.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> God, at least by the Christian definition hasn't been around all that long. The Jewish God has. The Pagan Gods have. The Greek Gods have . I imagine the African, Oriental,Native American have too. Mine has too.
> Sorry if I missed your point.



Please explain to me what "definition" you are using here. You do know that Christians believe in the same God as Jews?


----------



## earl (Nov 26, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Please explain to me what "definition" you are using here. You do know that Christians believe in the same God as Jews?





No ,the Jewish God prior to JC was precisely that,the Jewish God. To believe in Him prior to JC, you had to convert to Judaism.  If you were a gentile that had not converted ,you probably believed in Mithra ,Ra , or a multitude of others. 

You do know that Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians don't you ? If they did they would also have to believe that JC was the true messiah and son of God. They would also have to believe in the trinity. To the best of my knowledge ,they don't.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> No ,the Jewish God prior to JC was precisely that,the Jewish God. To believe in Him prior to JC, you had to convert to Judaism.  If you were a gentile that had not converted ,you probably believed in Mithra ,Ra , or a multitude of others.
> 
> You do know that Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians don't you ? If they did they would also have to believe that JC was the true messiah and son of God. They would also have to believe in the trinity. To the best of my knowledge ,they don't.



All Christians I know and have ever known believe that "God" was/is the God of the Jews. 
He hasn't changed. 
He sent his Messiah named Jesus and allowed Gentiles as well as Jews to have a relationship with him. Some Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah. God remains the same. 
I believe my God walked with Adam in the cool of the day, just as the Jews do. Only now I do not have to keep the Law to have a relationship with God.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 26, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> All Christians I know and have ever known believe that "God" was/is the God of the Jews.
> He hasn't changed.
> He sent his Messiah named Jesus and allowed Gentiles as well as Jews to have a relationship with him. Some Messianic Jews believe that Jesus was the Messiah. God remains the same.
> I believe my God walked with Adam in the cool of the day, just as the Jews do. Only now I do not have to keep the Law to have a relationship with God.



I'm pretty sure Jews don't believe that Jesus is God.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> No ,the Jewish God prior to JC was precisely that,the Jewish God. To believe in Him prior to JC, you had to convert to Judaism.  If you were a gentile that had not converted ,you probably believed in Mithra ,Ra , or a multitude of others.
> 
> You do know that Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians don't you ? If they did they would also have to believe that JC was the true messiah and son of God. They would also have to believe in the trinity. To the best of my knowledge ,they don't.



Lewis Black, the comedian, does a great standup about defining God and how the "Old" Testament and the "New" Testament can be viewed!


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 26, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I'm pretty sure Jews don't believe that Jesus is God.



No, but some believe he a part of the Godhead just as we Christians do...

They are known as Messianic Jews because they accept Jesus as their Messiah.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> God, at least by the Christian definition hasn't been around all that long. The Jewish God has. The Pagan Gods have. The Greek Gods have . I imagine the African, Oriental,Native American have too. Mine has too.
> Sorry if I missed your point.


earl,I would've thought you more wise than that. The Jewish God and the Christian God are the same.............


----------



## Roberson (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> No ,the Jewish God prior to JC was precisely that,the Jewish God. To believe in Him prior to JC, you had to convert to Judaism.  If you were a gentile that had not converted ,you probably believed in Mithra ,Ra , or a multitude of others.
> 
> You do know that Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians don't you ? If they did they would also have to believe that JC was the true messiah and son of God. They would also have to believe in the trinity. To the best of my knowledge ,they don't.


alot of Jews DID believe Jesus was the Messiah, in fact,they are responsible for the spread of Christianity. And if you know the Bible,you'll understand that all Jews will be saved-they are still God's chosen.


----------



## Lowjack (Nov 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Freud also did extensive work on this.


Freud is a fraud, and a fruit Cake, LOL


----------



## Lowjack (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> No ,the Jewish God prior to JC was precisely that,the Jewish God. To believe in Him prior to JC, you had to convert to Judaism.  If you were a gentile that had not converted ,you probably believed in Mithra ,Ra , or a multitude of others.
> 
> You do know that Jews don't believe in the same God as Christians don't you ? If they did they would also have to believe that JC was the true messiah and son of God. They would also have to believe in the trinity. To the best of my knowledge ,they don't.



Earl you need Freud,LOL


----------



## Roberson (Nov 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Lewis Black, the comedian, does a great standup about defining God and how the "Old" Testament and the "New" Testament can be viewed!


Sorry,WTM, but I don't think I would watch a stand up comedian poking fun at God Almighty. What  if I watched a guy making fun of Native American beliefs? Or of Islam? or Bhuddism? Or atheists?I would probably get in trouble with the ACLU. Why is it always O.K. to laugh at Christianity but God forbid you laugh at another religion!


----------



## earl (Nov 26, 2009)

Well you show me a Jew who believes in JC and the Trinity and I'll show you a Jew who no longer practices Judaism and is no longer considered a true Jew by his own people.

Gator country riddle me this . If the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same ,where is JC and the Trinity taught in Jewish religious books ?

LJ ,I see your ignore feature is malfunctioning. Long as you can see me ,maybe you can help GC Find Jesus the true messiah, and the Christian Trinity in Jewish texts. 

ddd, Do you really think that Messianic Jews are accepted by their Jewish brethren who practice Judaism ? Or are they just hybridized Christians ?

Sounds like we are getting back to there being one way for Jews and another for nonJews to get to heaven . If so ya'll got a lot of explaining to do about there being only one way and no last chance hall passes .

Lewis Black is great ! He can tell you all about Jews and Christians.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> Well you show me a Jew who believes in JC and the Trinity and I'll show you a Jew who no longer practices Judaism and is no longer considered a true Jew by his own people.
> 
> Gator country riddle me this . If the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same ,where is JC and the Trinity taught in Jewish religious books ?
> 
> ...


I will gladly entertain you,earl. You see, the difference is the Jewish Nation as a whole has not accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but they will. It doesn't really matter if Messianic Jews are accepted by Jews or not, They are simply people of Jewish heritage who accept Jesus as the messiah. No, they are certainly not hybridized Christians, they are thoroughbred Christians.
Jesus is in the Jewish Texts. He is the Messiah prophesied there.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> Well you show me a Jew who believes in JC and the Trinity and I'll show you a Jew who no longer practices Judaism and is no longer considered a true Jew by his own people.
> 
> ddd, Do you really think that Messianic Jews are accepted by their Jewish brethren who practice Judaism ? Or are they just hybridized Christians ?
> 
> Sounds like we are getting back to there being one way for Jews and another for nonJews to get to heaven . If so ya'll got a lot of explaining to do about there being only one way and no last chance hall passes .



You will have to ask LJ about the acceptance of Messianic Jews, but by some accounts, the Messianic "movement" is gaining ground in Israel. 

earl, as long as a person is alive, they have a chance to repent and believe-no matter what faith they are. During the end times, God will raise up 2 prophets and they, along with other signs, will show Israel (and the rest of the world) who the Messiah is/was. Then they will repent and be saved. Anyone at this time can repent. It is not an overtime period for the Jewish nation or a free shot at the goal. Same rules.


----------



## Diogenes (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry states:  “You see, the difference is the Jewish Nation as a whole has not accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but they will. It doesn't really matter if Messianic Jews are accepted by Jews or not, They are simply people of Jewish heritage who accept Jesus as the messiah. No, they are certainly not hybridized Christians, they are thoroughbred Christians.”

Um?  What?????   You might need to ask a Rabbi about that one.  So, let me get this straight --  Messianic Jews are actually thoroughbred Christians, and the Jewish people as a whole actually will accept Jesus?  And you have this insight on account of what?  Didn’t you Christian folks break away and make your own ‘New’ Testament?  Your statements are outrageous and insupportable.  

To the topic at hand -- God is not real.  Period.  Why folks throughout history have gone ahead and invented them, unfailingly and in thousands of incarnations, was because they were ignorant and scared.  And pay attention here, because as concerns 99.9% of the Gods that history has recorded, everybody is an Atheist.  Nobody knew why the Sun rose and fell, so they posited a Sun God, and worshipped it, and built temples and held sacrifices – then, darn, someone figured it out, and the Sun God disappeared.  Same goes for the Volcano Gods, Rain Gods, Thunder-making Gods, Fertility Gods, and the various Gods of the Seas, the Moon, the Stars, the Crops, the Hunt, and not even mentioning the thousands of lesser godlets and goddesses that were hiding behind every burning bush . . . 

Those Gods were quite real to folks, and they built elaborate temples, and crafted elaborate rituals to get on the good side of everyone from Ra and Isis to Apollo and Daphne, Zeus, and Odin . . .  So if you do not believe in those gods, you are, by definition, an atheist where most of the Gods in history are concerned.  Gods, you see, are created and destroyed by people with quite a bit of alacrity.  What destroyed all of those previous ‘Gods,’ you might notice, was an inconvenient thing we call ‘Knowledge,’ which is acquired by an inconvenient process we call ‘Science.’  

Do a bit of homework on your own religion, and what you will see is a constant retreat from original doctrine and dogma in the face of ever-advancing knowledge – nobody is put on trial by the religious zealots anymore for daring to suggest that the Earth is not the center of the universe, the Scopes Trial is over, and in thousands of ‘intellectual’ arenas all Christian Sects have been continually forced into retreat and rationalization --- everything from creation theories to the flood have been convincingly, factually revealed to be nonsense, and the few stubborn hangers-on have been marginalized.  

People invent Gods to take a short-cut between fear and understanding.


----------



## heavymetalhunter (Nov 27, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> People invent Gods to take a short-cut between fear and understanding.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

God bless you Diogenes.


.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Gatorcountry states:  “You see, the difference is the Jewish Nation as a whole has not accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but they will. It doesn't really matter if Messianic Jews are accepted by Jews or not, They are simply people of Jewish heritage who accept Jesus as the messiah. No, they are certainly not hybridized Christians, they are thoroughbred Christians.”
> 
> Um?  What?????   You might need to ask a Rabbi about that one.  So, let me get this straight --  Messianic Jews are actually thoroughbred Christians, and the Jewish people as a whole actually will accept Jesus?  And you have this insight on account of what?  Didn’t you Christian folks break away and make your own ‘New’ Testament?  Your statements are outrageous and insupportable.
> 
> ...


Why would I need to ask a rabbi? I don't have to .I have this insight on account of the Word of God. Actually it was Jews who "broke away' and wrote the New Testament. And again I beg to differ with your assumption that Christians are being "forced into retreat and rationalization" quite the opposite,if you knew the Bible you would know that it is proving itself true everyday. if you think science can answer everything, you may need to talk to some scientists about that. I'm sure they , like us, are still full of unanswerable questions.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> Well you show me a Jew who believes in JC and the Trinity and I'll show you a Jew who no longer practices Judaism and is no longer considered a true Jew by his own people.
> 
> Gator country riddle me this . If the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same ,where is JC and the Trinity taught in Jewish religious books ?
> 
> ...


Oh, yeah, earl,you wanted the Trinity in Jewish texts,I already gave you Jesus the Messiah, and the Old Testament Mentions The Holy Spirit numerous times. Every time it says "God's Spirit", the "Spirit of the Lord", etc. ..... Also, in the very beginning, God says "Let us make man in our image".  Who is "us"and "our"?


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

GC  You  have failed in both posts. Show me Jewish texts . Torah , etc. As every one knows the Jews do not use the Old Testament. Keep trying.

ddd.   As a gentile Ican wait until the end of time and have the same opportunity as Revalation says God's chosen people will get ????????????Let me have chapter and verse  because I think you may be in error.


----------



## wholenotem (Nov 27, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> :cool:



But, what if we're right; where do you stand?


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Pascal's Wager.  Again.


----------



## heavymetalhunter (Nov 27, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> But, what if we're right; where do you stand?


if i thought you were right,  i would believe what you believe then wouldnt i...............


----------



## heavymetalhunter (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Pascal's Wager.  Again.



yep.


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> GC  You  have failed in both posts. Show me Jewish texts . Torah , etc. As every one knows the Jews do not use the Old Testament. Keep trying.
> 
> ddd.   As a gentile Ican wait until the end of time and have the same opportunity as Revalation says God's chosen people will get ????????????Let me have chapter and verse  because I think you may be in error.



earl, you need to go back and pick up a course in comparative religion and check out the section on Judaism. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament..... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Keep up that kind of misinformation and the Jews will want to slap you on the back of your head. As you say, "Try again."


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> ddd.   As a gentile Ican wait until the end of time and have the same opportunity as Revalation says God's chosen people will get ????????????Let me have chapter and verse  because I think you may be in error.



As long as you are alive, you will have the opportunity to repent. 
As long as the Jews are alive, they will have the opportunity to repent. 
Romans 10:9 applies to everyone.


----------



## GAdeadEye (Nov 27, 2009)

They had to come up with some explanation why the extrateresrtials are visiting the planet in big powerful machines, so they called them "gods" just like during WWII when American planes landed on isolated islands the natives called them "Gods", It's an explanation for something you can't understand


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> earl, you need to go back and pick up a course in comparative religion and check out the section on Judaism. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament..... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Keep up that kind of misinformation and the Jews will want to slap you on the back of your head. As you say, "Try again."


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> GC  You  have failed in both posts. Show me Jewish texts . Torah , etc. As every one knows the Jews do not use the Old Testament. Keep trying.
> 
> ddd.   As a gentile Ican wait until the end of time and have the same opportunity as Revalation says God's chosen people will get ????????????Let me have chapter and verse  because I think you may be in error.



Earl is correct.  They do not use the "Old Testament" in the same sense as Christians use the "KJV Old Testament."

The Tanakh is their guide.  The Torah (in Hebrew) is the Law section.  It is not the same as the KJV.  It is considered by many Jewish leaders as a mis-interpretation of their holy scrolls.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 27, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> To the topic at hand -- God is not real.  Period.
> 
> People invent Gods to take a short-cut between fear and understanding.



Two statements I do not think even you could agree with. Did you not say in another thread: 
"Defending your point of view crashes on the rocks of incredulity the moment it is asserted as the ‘One Truth.’"

You are famous for stating that anyone who claims to hold the truth and tries to push it on others reaks of arrogance, ignorance and a total disregard for honest inquiry...right?

Which is it? Ignore the one who claims to hold the answers, or listen to me, I know the REAL truth.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

it is most certainly the same as the KJV. not only do they use the first five books of the bible, they also use the rest of the Old Testament. (major and minor prophets, psalms, proverbs, The book of Job, the wisdom of Solomon,etc. Show me a jew who does not study David, the King of the Jews, by reading his psalms, and like earl said, I'll show you someone who is no longer a Jew. I don't know why some of you think the Bible has "changed" through the many centuries. it was translated out of the original Hebrew. Even Jews will agree with that. The dead sea scrolls reinforce this.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> People invent Gods to take a short-cut between fear and understanding.



And to those people who do that, their deity is as real to them as the "Boogey Man" under the bed is to others.  I find it pretty unique to each individual, as even the descriptions vary from believer to believer.
How they learn/develop their belief is completely dependant upon external influences and emotions.

The discussion is finally moving forward!  Good post ddd!


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And to those people who do that, their deity is as real to them as the "Boogey Man" under the bed is to others.  I find it pretty unique to each individual, as even the descriptions vary from believer to believer.
> How they learn/develop their belief is completely dependant upon external influences and emotions.
> 
> The discussion is finally moving forward!  Good post ddd!


moving forward in the direction YOU want it to go, huh, WTM?


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> I don't know why some of you think the Bible has "changed" through the many centuries. it was translated out of the original Hebrew.



Some of us have much more knowledge and experience in the study of canonization and Biblical interpretation than you give credit for.

A review of the previous posts in this forum will give you some insight to the knowledge level of the participants here.

You might be suprised at how incorrect you are with the above statement.  It is all too obvious.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> moving forward in the direction YOU want it to go, huh, WTM?



Ad hominem again?

I'm not directing anything here.
I'm quickly tiring of your inaccuracy and style.  Patient, I remain.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Gatorcountry states:  “You see, the difference is the Jewish Nation as a whole has not accepted Jesus as the Messiah, but they will. It doesn't really matter if Messianic Jews are accepted by Jews or not, They are simply people of Jewish heritage who accept Jesus as the messiah. No, they are certainly not hybridized Christians, they are thoroughbred Christians.”
> 
> Um?  What?????   You might need to ask a Rabbi about that one.  So, let me get this straight --  Messianic Jews are actually thoroughbred Christians, and the Jewish people as a whole actually will accept Jesus?  And you have this insight on account of what?  Didn’t you Christian folks break away and make your own ‘New’ Testament?  Your statements are outrageous and insupportable.
> 
> ...


After all those different gods you talked about came and went,God Himself remains. and almost all of the religions you mentioned there converted to Christianity. you also mentioned the flood----do you know that it is in almost every religious tradition? An ancient memory passed down..........


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> An ancient memory passed down..........



Fable, story or parable, but by NO means a memory.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Ad hominem again?
> 
> I'm not directing anything here.
> I'm quickly tiring of your inaccuracy and style.  Patient, I remain.


AND I"M QUICKLY TIRING OF YOUR "I HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE" ARROGANCE. 
if you cannot debate, or take a joke, you do not have to read this thread. why do you non-believers or whatever you are (You never said) think you know better than most of the world's population which is still mostly Christian? you have made it plain that you have an education, numerous times. well, believe it or not,so do I and BILLIONS of other Christians.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

It's hopeless when words are put in your mouth by another.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Fable, story or parable, but by NO means a memory.


why would almost every culture on earth make up a fable about a great flood? keep in mind that these cultures were spread around the world with no contact with each other. It's not like one Chief in Central America called another chief in Africa and said "let's make up a story about a great flood to tell our people". What would be the purpose of making this up ? to teach the people to not pray to the rain gods too hard?


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

The story of a great flood is not a procedural memory, a propositional memory or a recollective memory for any individual.  Period. 

Neither is the story of a flying spaghetti monster.

An explanation regarding the reasoning for such a global tragedy story must lie in the accepted reasoning of why a deity would destroy even the innocent parts of his/her creation.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The story of a great flood is not a procedural memory, a propositional memory or a recollective memory for any individual.  Period.
> 
> Neither is the story of a flying spaghetti monster.



wow,you sound so confident. so you're telling me that a memory of a great event cannot be passed down through the millennia?


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

It's no longer a memory by definition.
We digress.....


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It's no longer a memory by definition.
> We digress.....


WTM, why do you have to be so dern difficult? you know what I mean when I say it was passed down from generation 
 to generation. What, professor, is the correct term? Oral tradition? No, we are really not digressing,this has to do with the history of religion.But yes, let's move on.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> WTM, why do you have to be so dern difficult? you know what I mean when I say it was passed down from generation
> to generation. What, professor, is the correct term? Oral tradition? No, we are really not digressing,this has to do with the history of religion.But yes, let's move on.



No, I don't know what you mean.  I can only respond to what you say.
And, FYI, the namecalling should stop if you are seeking to be taken more seriously.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> No, I don't know what you mean.  I can only respond to what you say.
> And, FYI, the namecalling should stop if you are seeking to be taken more seriously.


My being taken seriously is not dependent on you.


----------



## Inthegarge (Nov 27, 2009)

Let's see we went from Maslow and Freud to Christians are idiots ????????  You need to do your research and get your "facts" straight. The comments on the Old & New testament not being the same are BASELESS and you should know better.... So don't preach to people when you are the one with incorrect information. 

Maslow was a 'Religious" man as you use the term. Freud is reported to have professed faith in his later years. Anyone with a brain in their heads knows that mankind has always believed in a "Higher Power" since the earliest of accounts. Oh yea.... most of that  came from The "Old Testament". 

Now tell me why we don't find tons of documents from history where the "Athiest" faith was proclaimed. It's not there, It was only in recent history that "Atheist" have claimed to know more then the people who lived and wrote the history. Calling it a fairy tale doesn't make it one. It just makes you appear more uneducated. By the way what is your level of education. You must have studied for years and years in order to know so much about The Torah, the Jews , the Bible and the universe.

No more pearls before swine.......................RW


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

I've just read every single post that was made today in this thread.  Put them all together and you pretty much have nothing.
I was also amused at the number of post that were made by unbelievers who were trying to educate the believers in regard to the Bible.

To the Christians:  Why did you waste your effort in this thread.

To the unbelievers:  I wish you knew as much about God's word as you think you do.  Your understanding is terribly lacking.
All the Christians who will come and read this thread will be shaking their heads at the comments you've made here.

Lord, please lead some folks here who would like to learn of your word.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Let's see we went from Maslow and Freud to Christians are idiots ????????  You need to do your research and get your "facts" straight. The comments on the Old & New testament not being the same are BASELESS and you should know better.... So don't preach to people when you are the one with incorrect information.
> 
> Maslow was a 'Religious" man as you use the term. Freud is reported to have professed faith in his later years. Anyone with a brain in their heads knows that mankind has always believed in a "Higher Power" since the earliest of accounts. Oh yea.... most of that  came from The "Old Testament".
> 
> ...



Excellent post! It's about time.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I've just read every single post that was made today in this thread.  Put them all together and you pretty much have nothing.
> I was also amused at the number of post that were made by unbelievers who were trying to educate the believers in regard to the Bible.
> 
> To the Christians:  Why did you waste your effort in this thread.
> ...


Ronnie, I was hoping to not waste my efforts, but..........


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> earl, you need to go back and pick up a course in comparative religion and check out the section on Judaism. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament..... Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Keep up that kind of misinformation and the Jews will want to slap you on the back of your head. As you say, "Try again."





So if I strictly follow the Jewish faith ,I will find Christian salvation and believe in Jesus Christ aqnd the Trinity ?
You and GC seem to be reluctant to address this particular question.
I think if you answer correctly ,your Jewish friend will be slapping you on the back of the head for saying the Torah and the OT are the same. There is a descrepancy ,you conviently ignore ,between the number of books each religion claim complete their texts.


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> As long as you are alive, you will have the opportunity to repent.
> As long as the Jews are alive, they will have the opportunity to repent.
> Romans 10:9 applies to everyone.



What about Gods chosen that followed his way and died before JC came ? For that matter what about the nonJewish people who died before JC that practiced other religions ?
I have seen it said on this forum that after the second coming Jews will get an extra chance because they are God's chosen. Gentiles ,or non Jews , will not.


----------



## Inthegarge (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> So if I strictly follow the Jewish faith ,I will find Christian salvation and believe in Jesus Christ aqnd the Trinity ?
> You and GC seem to be reluctant to address this particular question.
> I think if you answer correctly ,your Jewish friend will be slapping you on the back of the head for saying the Torah and the OT are the same. There is a descrepancy ,you conviently ignore ,between the number of books each religion claim complete their texts.



Really, they certainly agree on the others. So what is your point??  RW


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

earl, if you have your Bible handy, preferably an NIV study Bible, read Romans 11:25-32. God's covenant with Israel is everlasting. As far as God's chosen before Christ, they were under the law. if they kept the law, they are with God right now.The multitudes who died before are judged by what faith God gave them. Everyone knows the difference between good and evil, God puts that in everyone. Before Christ, this is how you were judged........I think.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Let's see we went from Maslow and Freud to Christians are idiots ????????  You need to do your research and get your "facts" straight. The comments on the Old & New testament not being the same are BASELESS and you should know better.... So don't preach to people when you are the one with incorrect information.
> 
> Maslow was a 'Religious" man as you use the term. Freud is reported to have professed faith in his later years. Anyone with a brain in their heads knows that mankind has always believed in a "Higher Power" since the earliest of accounts. Oh yea.... most of that  came from The "Old Testament".
> 
> ...



Please let me know if you are addressing me.  I'll try my best to explain anything that I might have been unclear on.
I don't think you are, as I have not called anyone here an "idiot" or posted incorrect information.
But I'm willing to clarify anything I've said.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> To the unbelievers:  I wish you knew as much about God's word as you think you do.  Your understanding is terribly lacking.



Not accurate at all, Ronnie.  Borderline condensending even.

We've been past this point, I thought.  In our previous discussions here we have agreed that even believers have differences of opinion and interpretation of the Bible among themselves, so it's not out of the realm of possibilities that unbelievers, Agnostics and believers alike would have some differences.


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> So if I strictly follow the Jewish faith ,I will find Christian salvation and believe in Jesus Christ and the Trinity ?
> You and GC seem to be reluctant to address this particular question.
> I think if you answer correctly ,your Jewish friend will be slapping you on the back of the head for saying the Torah and the OT are the same. There is a discrepancy ,you conveniently ignore ,between the number of books each religion claim complete their texts.



earl, that is altogether quite a different question you pose. It is possible and, in fact, has happened on numerous occasions. I have a personal friend who found the answers given by Judaism to some of the questions he raised, to be so unsatisfactory as to cause him, while in college, to seek out the truth. His own path of study led him to conclude that Jesus is the Christ and he left Judaism and accepted Jesus as the Messiah,.... his Messiah.

  Besides, if you will reread my post, you will see that I have not maintained the OT and the Torah are one and the same. The Torah is part of the OT (or perhaps more accurately, the OT includes the Torah. If one compares the Torah to the first five books of the OT in Hebrew, one will see that they are the same. Judaism also values many of the other books in the OT as scripture. They just are not part of the Torah, but are classified differently and held in high regard. I simply understand the relationship of the two documents. I do not ignore the differences. They are significant. Just not in the first five books!


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Those first five books (Chumash) are to remain in Hebrew to be considered what they are to the Jewish faith.  GT, as you said, the differences can be considered by some to be significant.

The study of how the various interpretation versions like the KJV came about is an enlightening study.


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Earl is correct.  They do not use the "Old Testament" in the same sense as Christians use the "KJV Old Testament."
> 
> The Tanakh is their guide.  The Torah (in Hebrew) is the Law section.  It is not the same as the KJV.  It is considered by many Jewish leaders as a mis-interpretation of their holy scrolls.



Actually, earl stopped short of making the statement that you provided above.  earl stated, "As every one knows the Jews do not use the Old Testament.", to which you added, "... in the same sense as Christians use the "KJV Old Testament." 

WTM, have you taken to reading minds? Or do you try to prop up earl's statement because it pleases you to do so? To the best of my recollection, you are the first to bring up the KJV in this thread, not anyone else, including earl. Yet you state that earl is "correct". On the basis of what he typed or on the basis of what you typed?

 Bad form, old chap!


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Actually, earl stopped short of making the statement that you provided above.  earl stated, "As every one knows the Jews do not use the Old Testament.", to which you added, "... in the same sense as Christians use the "KJV Old Testament."
> 
> WTM, have you taken to reading minds? Or do you try to prop up earl's statement because it pleases you to do so? To the best of my recollection, you are the first to bring up the KJV in this thread, not anyone else, including earl. Yet you state that earl is "correct". On the basis of what he typed or on the basis of what you typed?
> 
> Bad form, old chap!



No.  Earl was and is correct.  The Jewish faith does not call the Tanakh the "Old Testament."  So whenever the "Old Testament" is used, it has to refer to a later translation.  The KJV is the most widely referenced version here, therefore my use of the description.
Nothing more than that.  No cards held under the table.  No intention of cheating.


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> earl, if you have your Bible handy, preferably an NIV study Bible, read Romans 11:25-32. God's covenant with Israel is everlasting. As far as God's chosen before Christ, they were under the law. if they kept the law, they are with God right now.The multitudes who died before are judged by what faith God gave them. Everyone knows the difference between good and evil, God puts that in everyone. Before Christ, this is how you were judged........I think.



And what faith did God give the NonJewish. Now you are looking at a big goose egg.
If they didn't keep the law ,are you sure they don't get a second chance with JC in Revalation ?


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Those first five books (Chumash) are to remain in Hebrew to be considered what they are to the Jewish faith.  As you said, the differences can be considered by some to be significant.
> 
> The study of how the KJV came about is an enlightening study.



 I have no problem producing the first five books of the OT in Hebrew. They read the same. The difference is entirely one of interpretation. 

As for the origin of the KJV, it does not seem to be relevant to the thread. The Torah and the first five books of the OT in Hebrew are the same. Would you suggest translating the first five books of the English KJV back into Hebrew? Why bother? We already have them in Hebrew. 

You and earl have adopted a Judaic perspective on the matter, yet, to the best of my knowledge, no one involved in this discussion practices Judaism. Are you just trying to be argumentative?


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

No.  I'm not being argumentative.  And I'm not Jewish or been formally trained as an Orthodox.  I see that knowledge as a pretty valuable asset, one I do not have nor can obtain.
I do have some time spent in study of Judaism.
I'm only relaying knowledge I have obtained.
The Tanakh and the Old Testament simply are not the same.
Yes, one came from the other.
They are taught differently, interpreted quite differently and must be referred to as seperate.

I understand the "chicken-egg" type of argument regarding the two.  But in reality, they are two seperate religious belief systems.  That has to be accepted by all before the discussion can move forward.

Many times I have wished for a greater representation of other belief systems on this forum.  I only try to express what I know to be factual regarding other belief systems as it so often seems they are never correctly represented.


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> earl, that is altogether quite a different question you pose. It is possible and, in fact, has happened on numerous occasions. I have a personal friend who found the answers given by Judaism to some of the questions he raised, to be so unsatisfactory as to cause him, while in college, to seek out the truth. His own path of study led him to conclude that Jesus is the Christ and he left Judaism and accepted Jesus as the Messiah,.... his Messiah.
> 
> Besides, if you will reread my post, you will see that I have not maintained the OT and the Torah are one and the same. The Torah is part of the OT (or perhaps more accurately, the OT includes the Torah. If one compares the Torah to the first five books of the OT in Hebrew, one will see that they are the same. Judaism also values many of the other books in the OT as scripture. They just are not part of the Torah, but are classified differently and held in high regard. I simply understand the relationship of the two documents. I do not ignore the differences. They are significant. Just not in the first five books!



No ,my friend ,it is the same question phrased differently. You maintain that the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same. If I can't get to heaven following the God of the Jews,but I can by the God of the Christians, then they cannot be the same. Just as the OT and the Jewish texts have significant differences so does their Gods
To phrase the question a little differently,can I get to heaven through the OT alone ? Or do  I have to believe in the NT as well ? If I have to and Jews don't then there are two different ways to get to heaven .  No?

Your own example of your friend says he had to abandon Judaism to be saved . Does that mean that God as defined in Jewish texts is insufficient for salvation ? That is what it sounds like you are saying, which was my take originally.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

And someone above went as far as to say all Jews will be saved regardless of their chosen belief system.
Hmmmmmmm........


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> And what faith did God give the NonJewish. Now you are looking at a big goose egg.
> If they didn't keep the law ,are you sure they don't get a second chance with JC in Revalation ?


I think ol' earl is just trying to trip me up  God gives everyone a measure of faith, earl.It's an innate sense that God is real, and even heathens more or less follow a moral code.the unbelieving dead will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement, according to the deeds done in the body, whether good or bad.  Without Jesus, there's no chance to stand before Holy God Almighty. But alot of these dead died before a chance to know Jesus.these are the ones who will be judged according by the deeds done in the 
 body. In other words, if they knew to do good but did not. I'm sleepy


----------



## Inthegarge (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> No ,my friend ,it is the same question phrased differently. You maintain that the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same. If I can't get to heaven following the God of the Jews,but I can by the God of the Christians, then they cannot be the same. Just as the OT and the Jewish texts have significant differences so does their Gods
> To phrase the question a little differently,can I get to heaven through the OT alone ? Or do  I have to believe in the NT as well ? If I have to and Jews don't then there are two different ways to get to heaven .  No?
> 
> Your own example of your friend says he had to abandon Judaism to be saved . Does that mean that God as defined in Jewish texts is insufficient for salvation ? That is what it sounds like you are saying, which was my take originally.



Earl, God has not changed. How he deals with people has. You have those who lived before Christ in one economy and those after another. The Jews looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. Unfortunately, when He came (Jesus) they rejected Him. But this was foretold in the Old Testament. The above reference to them all being Saved was talking about a coming event..it hasn't happened yet. Some have come to realize the Jesus was the Messiah promised and have accepted Him as such. It really pretty simple if you don't try to make it fit your view of time. Hope this helps.....RW


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> And what faith did God give the NonJewish. Now you are looking at a big goose egg.
> If they didn't keep the law ,are you sure they don't get a second chance with JC in Revelation ?




Read Romans 1: 18-32, earl.  Everyone is without excuse. Everyone has everything needed to recognize that God is. Everyone has some faith, sufficient to allow them to place their trust in Him. 

Those who do not want to "get it", won't "get it". Non-seekers are evidently  going to be non-finders. Those who do not respond by exercising the faith God has graced them with are hopelessly lost.


----------



## Inthegarge (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> No.  Earl was and is correct.  The Jewish faith does not call the Tanakh the "Old Testament."  So whenever the "Old Testament" is used, it has to refer to a later translation.  The KJV is the most widely referenced version here, therefore my use of the description.
> Nothing more than that.  No cards held under the table.  No intention of cheating.



WTM, the term "Old Testament" was not used until a few centuries ago. But it does refer to the same scriptures used by Jews and Christians alike. The translations were into English since most English speaking people refuse to learn Armaic, Hebrew and Greek. These are the original languages the texts were written in. Funny, it wasn't an issue until several groups over the past 200 years decided to do their own translation and having it the same as the KJV wasn't going to do it..LOL    RW


----------



## Inthegarge (Nov 27, 2009)

Going hunting in the AM so I'll check in tomorrow to see how this thread is progressing....RW


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And someone above went as far as to say all Jews will be saved regardless of their chosen belief system.
> Hmmmmmmm........


ummmm,that was me who said that,WTM,and I have the scripture to back it up, but you wouldn't accept it.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Going hunting in the AM so I'll check in tomorrow to see how this thread is progressing....RW



Good luck!  I'll be gone for a week!


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> WTM, the term "Old Testament" was not used until a few centuries ago. But it does refer to the same scriptures used by Jews and Christians alike.


"Old Testament" is a term that is MANY centuries old.

Not the same to the Orthodox.  Fact.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> ummmm,that was me who said that,WTM,and I have the scripture to back it up, but you wouldn't accept it.



Rather presumptuous.
And I know what you will use to support your statement BEFORE you post the book, chapter and verse.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I have no problem producing the first five books of the OT in Hebrew. They read the same. The difference is entirely one of interpretation.
> 
> As for the origin of the KJV, it does not seem to be relevant to the thread. The Torah and the first five books of the OT in Hebrew are the same. Would you suggest translating the first five books of the English KJV back into Hebrew? Why bother? We already have them in Hebrew.
> 
> You and earl have adopted a Judaic perspective on the matter, yet, to the best of my knowledge, *no one involved in this discussion practices Judaism. Are you just trying to be argumentative?*


Why no they're not!


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> No ,my friend ,it is the same question phrased differently. You maintain that the Jewish God and the Christian God are the same. If I can't get to heaven following the God of the Jews,but I can by the God of the Christians, then they cannot be the same. Just as the OT and the Jewish texts have significant differences so does their Gods
> To phrase the question a little differently,can I get to heaven through the OT alone ? Or do  I have to believe in the NT as well ? If I have to and Jews don't then there are two different ways to get to heaven .  No?
> 
> Your own example of your friend says he had to abandon Judaism to be saved . Does that mean that God as defined in Jewish texts is insufficient for salvation ? That is what it sounds like you are saying, which was my take originally.



I did not say he had to abandon, I said he did. Early, ethnically-Jewish followers of Jesus continued to practice their faith in the Temple until they were ostracized and persecuted; banned from Temple worship. They viewed being a follower of the Messiah as being completely consistent with Judaism as God intended it. It was not the beginning of a new religious identity, it was the fulfillment of the one that they and their ancestors were called to, beginning with Abraham. The Jews see the Christian God as different from Jehovah. The Christian perspective is that the revelation of Jehovah is continued through the Son of God, Jesus Christ and is further evidenced in the God-inspired writings of Holy Scripture and by the in-dwelling of the Holy Spirit.


Can you (someone) get to heaven through the teachings of the OT? Sure, two ways. 1) Faith in God to provide the means for reconciliation, Jesus. 2) Live a completely sinless life in obedience to God's commands.

Well, #2 is water under the bridge, so #1 is your (or a contemporary's) only shot.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> The Jews see the Christian God as different from Jehovah.



Isn't that just what earl said in post #21?


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Rather presumptuous.
> And I know what you will use to support your statement BEFORE you post the book, chapter and verse.



why WTM,that's rather presumptuous of you too, to presume what text I was going to use. But you are right. What else would I use?by the way,do you accept it?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And someone above went as far as to say all Jews will be saved regardless of their chosen belief system.
> Hmmmmmmm........




Personally, I don't believe that will be the case.  It certainly isn't what is taught in the Gospel of Jesus.

Jesus came into the world for the Jew first.  Jesus was Jewish.  He grew up studying the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
Once he began His ministry He began teaching the Jews only.  Telling them, through words, miracles, quoting the Prophets, that the Messiah had come.  Jews began believing in Jesus.  Jews began spreading the news into all the world that the Messiah had come.

Eventually, God allowed Gentiles to have salvation through the Messiah of the Jews(Ephesians 1-2). 
The God of the Jews, the only God, thru Jesus, would now allow everyone and anyone come to Him thru Jesus Christ.

Those who don't come thru Jesus Christ, cannot come.

Some might disagree with some of that but the point is this:  The God of the Jew, became the God of all.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> why WTM,that's rather presumptuous of you too, to presume what text I was going to use. But you are right. What else would I use?by the way,do you accept it?



Not presumptuous, just a wild guess!

Accept it?  As in alowing it to be presented as an argument for or against?  Sure.  People present whatever they consider evidence to support their thoughts.
As in... "Yep, that's what the book says."

Agree with it?  That's a different subject altogether!


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I don't believe that will be the case.  It certainly isn't what is taught in the Gospel of Jesus.-
> 
> Jesus came into the world for the Jew first.  Jesus was Jewish.  He grew up studying the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
> Once he began His ministry He began teaching the Jews only.  Telling them, through words, miracles, quoting the Prophets, that the Messiah had come.  Jews began believing in Jesus.  Jews began spreading the news into all the world that the Messiah had come.
> ...


Ronnie, how do you reconcile that to Romans 11:25-32?
I totally agree that no one comes to God but through Jesus.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I don't believe that will be the case.  It certainly isn't what is taught in the Gospel of Jesus.
> 
> Jesus came into the world for the Jew first.  Jesus was Jewish.  He grew up studying the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
> Once he began His ministry He began teaching the Jews only.  Telling them, through words, miracles, quoting the Prophets, that the Messiah had come.  Jews began believing in Jesus.  Jews began spreading the news into all the world that the Messiah had come.
> ...



A well worded explanation, and just how I understand it from how it was presented to and taught to me.  But, the last sentence is not in agreement with or accepted by Orthodox Jews.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

goodnight ya'll.


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

Ya'll keep swinging and missing. He's the same ,just different, does not work in any sense of the word or in the Word. 
The God of the Jews ,ancient and todays Jews, is not the God of the Christians or of all. Judaism does not ,and never has , accepted Jesus Christ.

And no one has addressed the "Jewish ''version of the Trinity


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> A well worded explination, and just how I understand it from how it was presented to and taught to me.  But, *the last sentence is not in agreement with or accepted by Orthodox Jews*.



Maybe not, but I'm glad He is.


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Earl, God has not changed. How he deals with people has. You have those who lived before Christ in one economy and those after another. The Jews looked forward to the coming of the Messiah. Unfortunately, when He came (Jesus) they rejected Him. But this was foretold in the Old Testament. The above reference to them all being Saved was talking about a coming event..it hasn't happened yet. Some have come to realize the Jesus was the Messiah promised and have accepted Him as such. It really pretty simple if you don't try to make it fit your view of time. Hope this helps.....RW




Did you realy write that ? God didn't change but his ''deal'' did . I'm not an English major but some things wrong with that sentence .  Is it really that hard to accept that he changed his mind because his original laws were impossible for mankind to keep ?


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> Ya'll keep swinging and missing. He's the same ,just different, does not work in any sense of the word or in the Word.
> The God of the Jews ,ancient and todays Jews, is not the God of the Christians or of all. Judaism does not ,and never has , accepted Jesus Christ.
> 
> And no one has addressed the "Jewish ''version of the Trinity




There's nothing to discuss.  They're wrong.


----------



## gtparts (Nov 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Isn't that just what earl said in post #21?



The Judaic perspective on the subject of "same or different" is pretty well documented. The Christian perspective is clearly that they are the same. 

As for post #21, ddd is quoted as,"You do know that Christians believe in the same God as Jews?" 

earls response is, "No."

earl is wrong, because what ddd suggests is true.

Then earl proceeds to comment on what the Jews believe to back his negative response.

The premise, that earl makes, is based on the perspective of the Jew.....and is true.....but it does not negate the truth of ddd's post, predicated on the Christian's perspective. An honest appraisal would result in 1) earl confirming the correctness of ddd's suggestion and 2) something to the effect that the Jewish perspective is contrary. But to refute a premise, you must operate within that original premise. Debate doe not allow you to change the premise to refute the original premise. You must argue against the point as originally stated.

If there is a quarter and a dime in an ashtray at hunting camp and I say "Look, there is a quarter in the ashtray." It is foolish to say "No" in opposition and then state, "There is a dime in the ashtray." While the 1st and 3rd statements are both true, the second is false. The addition of the 3rd does nothing to negate the truth of the 1st.

Or are you having a hard time following that?


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> I think ol' earl is just trying to trip me up  God gives everyone a measure of faith, earl.It's an innate sense that God is real, and even heathens more or less follow a moral code.the unbelieving dead will be judged at the Great White Throne Judgement, according to the deeds done in the body, whether good or bad.  Without Jesus, there's no chance to stand before Holy God Almighty. But alot of these dead died before a chance to know Jesus.these are the ones who will be judged according by the deeds done in the
> body. In other words, if they knew to do good but did not. I'm sleepy




Ol' Scratch may be tripping you up or it could be your understanding of the scriptures . Even Ronnie says they are hard to decipher.

So now you are telling me that before JC, folks actually got a ticket to heaven based on their works. What happened to ''For all have sinned...'' etc. ? That pretty much wipes out all the nonJews , don't you think ?


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> There's nothing to discuss.  They're wrong.



Then how come they wont be going to he11 with me instead of being given that last second chance ?


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> goodnight ya'll.



You light weight !! I've got to be on the boat at 5:30 to get to my blind and it's gonna be 36 degrees .


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> As for post #21, ddd is quoted as,"You do know that Christians believe in the same God as Jews?"
> 
> earls response is, "No."



Earl is correct.
Neither group defines God the same nor openly accepts the other's definition.
Therefore, we have two distinct ideas of God.
They are not one in the same, no matter how you want to state it.
It takes very little time for an Orthodox Jew to point out the differences, from both a Christian's perspective and from a Jewish perspective.
I sat right there and heard it with my own ears.

I can not, and do not speak for all Christians or Jews.  There can be as many different interpretations found within those two belief system followers as there are ways of playing a 72 hole championship golf course.
I'm only discussing it at the most fundamental level of belief.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 27, 2009)

earl said:


> You light weight !! I've got to be on the boat at 5:30 to get to my blind and it's gonna be 36 degrees .


I'll say a prayer for ya!


----------



## earl (Nov 27, 2009)

gtparts said:


> The Judaic perspective on the subject of "same or different" is pretty well documented. The Christian perspective is clearly that they are the same.
> 
> As for post #21, ddd is quoted as,"You do know that Christians believe in the same God as Jews?"
> 
> ...


----------



## pileit (Nov 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I don't believe that will be the case.  It certainly isn't what is taught in the Gospel of Jesus.
> 
> Jesus came into the world for the Jew first.  Jesus was Jewish.  He grew up studying the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
> Once he began His ministry He began teaching the Jews only.  Telling them, through words, miracles, quoting the Prophets, that the Messiah had come.  Jews began believing in Jesus.  Jews began spreading the news into all the world that the Messiah had come.
> ...





Ronnie, in a few words you have given the best explanation yet in this thread.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

pileit said:


> Ronnie, in a few words you have given the best explanation yet in this thread.



Only of Christianity.  The original poster's questions are deeper still.


----------



## Diogenes (Nov 28, 2009)

Gatorcountry.  Wow.    

“Why would I need to ask a rabbi? I don't have to .I have this insight on account of the Word of God. Actually it was Jews who "broke away' and wrote the New Testament. And again I beg to differ with your assumption that Christians are being "forced into retreat and rationalization" quite the opposite,if you knew the Bible you would know that it is proving itself true everyday.”

I suspect that you might want to ask a Rabbi because I doubt very much that your God whispered his Word in your ear, and that is all the education you need.  And the Bible is proving itself true every day?  Is it really?  Which parts?  Be very specific, because I can quote hundreds of pages of outright nonsense written there, and I’m dying to hear about the parts that are proving themselves true.  

“Also, in the very beginning, God says "Let us make man in our image".”   Um?  ‘So God created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.’  But it is 26 passages later before this God does surgery on Adam, snatches out one of his ribs, and creates a female.  You see- if you wish to hang your hat entirely on words, you had better pay some attention to those words – one can’t have created ‘them,’ both ‘male and female,’ while creating only one man.  So, if you wish to boil it down to a phrase-by-phrase analysis, and parse each sentence, I’m game.  You see, for me the book you use as the the sole basis of existence is no different than the Wizard of Oz or the Chronicles of Narnia, and to be honest, as stories go, the latter are far more consistent and coherent.   

“After all those different gods you talked about came and went,God Himself remains. and almost all of the religions you mentioned there converted to Christianity. you also mentioned the flood----do you know that it is in almost every religious tradition? An ancient memory passed down..........”   What????   How can that be?  Hundreds and perhaps thousands of ‘Gods’ have been asserted and abandoned, and yours alone remains?  And (almost) all previous believers in those other ‘Gods’ have converted to your own?  Who knew?  Only you, it seems . . .   But since you do assert that you know, with unwavering, unfailing certainty, it is certainly justified to state: 

“AND I"M QUICKLY TIRING OF YOUR "I HAVE SUPERIOR KNOWLEDGE" ARROGANCE. 
if you cannot debate, or take a joke, you do not have to read this thread. why do you non-believers or whatever you are (You never said) think you know better than most of the world's population which is still mostly Christian? you have made it plain that you have an education, numerous times. well, believe it or not,so do I and BILLIONS of other Christians.”

Since you DO have superior knowledge, by only your own evidence, then we will not accuse you of arrogance.  That would be unfair.  But having such superior insight and knowledge, you would first of all understand that there are not ‘Billions’ of Christians by any means.  And you would also certainly understand that the fallacy of consensus gentium, in which sheer numbers of adherents create righteousness would work against you, since most of the 6.5 billion folks (or thereabouts) on the planet are not Christians.  So if your argument is that most of the world’s population must certainly be correct, then you have just argued that Christianity must then be wrong.  

OOPS.  Now.  As I recall, the question was one of whether or not God is real.  

And, as I recall, you asked that question yourself.  

As ‘Spiritual’ questions go, that is certainly a very good question, and is one that might merit some actual discussion, except for one problem – You, yourself, will not allow any discussion, and devolved the thought into a diatribe concerning your own mythology and how certainly and perfectly correct it says it is, as described entirely by itself in it’s own greatest and only Book.  Quoting and misquoting at will, rejecting any work or thought other than the singular ‘Scripture’ to which you adhere (and even rejecting parts of that ‘Scripture’ which seem to be inconvenient), insulting and belittling any thoughts that do not agree wholeheartedly, and adopting a posture of the ‘thug’ mentality where you find strength in numbers and agreements rather than in objective thoughts – well --  that is hardly a ‘discussion,’ now is it?

One might conclude that the question was not honestly posed, but was offered up as a lure in order to create a soapbox to stand upon and preach to the great unwashed . . . Which is exactly what you have done.  If you wished to have a referendum on your own Bible, then you have it – the population of the planet stands about 4 to 1 against it, by best current estimates, and you will not be able to change that by taking your Book and trying to continually and continuously hit everyone else over the head with it by way of ‘proving’ that everything it says is perfectly True.  

I say that, aside from a few actual pearls of genuine wisdom, everything it says is perfect nonsense, and I find genuine wisdom in quite a few of the tens of thousands of books I’ve read without asserting any of them as ‘proof’ of anything at all.  So – if the only thing you can possibly consider to be ‘Spiritual’ is your one Book, and your thinking is so narrow and your mind is so closed that any other thoughts will only be met with yet more ‘Bible’ quotes, then perhaps ‘discussion’ is not what you seek . . . 

Methinks, a famous bard once observed, that thou doth protest too much --  if the Christian viewpoint was so self-evidently correct that it is the only standard by which all other things are measured then such a surety would certainly need no defense.  

If there is a God, as you describe and place characteristics of your own description upon; and if this God has chosen to endow only a small part of his creation with the gift of such pansophic knowledge; and if you assert yourself to be among those in possession of that knowledge; then one might think a certain amount of serenity might accompany that position of Divine privilege.  If not, which seems obvious, then what is the problem?  Is your ‘Belief’ so fractured and insecure that it cannot tolerate any questioning without referring back to itself by way of validation?  Seems a bit sheep-like to me . . .


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 28, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> If there is a God, as you describe and place characteristics of your own description upon; and if this God has chosen to endow only a small part of his creation with the gift of such pansophic knowledge; and if you assert yourself to be among those in possession of that knowledge; then one might think a certain amount of serenity might accompany that position of Divine privilege.  If not, which seems obvious, then what is the problem?  Is your ‘Belief’ so fractured and insecure that it cannot tolerate any questioning without referring back to itself by way of validation?  Seems a bit sheep-like to me . . .



There it is in a nutshell.


----------



## Thanatos (Nov 28, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> If there is a God, as you describe and place characteristics of your own description upon; and if this God has chosen to endow only a small part of his creation with the gift of such pansophic knowledge; and if you assert yourself to be among those in possession of that knowledge; then one might think a certain amount of serenity might accompany that position of Divine privilege.  If not, which seems obvious, then what is the problem?  Is your ‘Belief’ so fractured and insecure that it cannot tolerate any questioning without referring back to itself by way of validation?  Seems a bit sheep-like to me . . .



Through human perception and experience we try to put God in a box. That is a very, very, very, very, very small box.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 28, 2009)

Is the concept of a supreme deity of any use whatsoever when it is not understood, or even understandable?  
Is that what you are hinting at?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 28, 2009)

earl said:


> What about Gods chosen that followed his way and died before JC came ? For that matter what about the nonJewish people who died before JC that practiced other religions ?
> I have seen it said on this forum that after the second coming Jews will get an extra chance because they are God's chosen. Gentiles ,or non Jews , will not.



The faithful Jews (yes, Jews can be faithful see Hebrews 11) went to a place called Abraham's Bosom (See Luke 16:22). After Jesus was crucified, He went and preached to those souls in captivity, or in prison. 
1 Peter 
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 
   19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 
   20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 
   21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 
   22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.


I will say it again. If you are alive when the prophets are preaching and you see signs of the end times; you can be saved just as easily as a Jew.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The faithful Jews (yes, Jews can be faithful see Hebrews 11) went to a place called Abraham's Bosom (See Luke 16:22). After Jesus was crucified, He went and preached to those souls in captivity, or in prison.
> 1 Peter
> 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
> 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
> ...



Aren't you quoting the "New Testament" which the Orthodox do not recognize?
I guess it is for the "faithful" only.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 28, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Aren't you quoting the "New Testament" which the Orthodox do not recognize?
> I guess it is for the "faithful" only.



I cannot argue for every sect of the Christian faith. earl asked me a question and I gave him what I believe to be the answer. 

Hebrews 6: (Written to the Hebrews if you didn't connect those dots...)

6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.


----------



## WTM45 (Nov 28, 2009)

I was referring to the NT addressing the "faithful" as those who believe in the triune God, Father-Son-Holy Spirit.

I know the Hebrews chapter/verse refers to those who believe in YHVH.


----------



## Diogenes (Nov 28, 2009)

The comment under this one is likely to be relevant.


----------



## Thanatos (Nov 28, 2009)

The comment above this one is likely to be irrelevant.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 28, 2009)

This comment was posted by a genius!


----------



## Roberson (Nov 28, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Gatorcountry.  Wow.
> 
> “Why would I need to ask a rabbi? I don't have to .I have this insight on account of the Word of God. Actually it was Jews who "broke away' and wrote the New Testament. And again I beg to differ with your assumption that Christians are being "forced into retreat and rationalization" quite the opposite,if you knew the Bible you would know that it is proving itself true everyday.”
> 
> ...



whoa,man-I must have really gotten next to you! Jesus fulfilling His words once again. "If the world hates you,keep in mind that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is,you do not belong to the world, But I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you". what have I misquoted at will? what part of scripture have I rejected? and what is wrong with me defending Christianity by quoting the Bible? I would not be much of a Christian if I did not. I have checked and rechecked the stats and the current number of professed Christians is about 2.1 Billion, with agnostics and other non believers coming in at 1.1 billion. you are welcome to check these stats at any reputable, unbiased source. and yes,the Holy Spirit does whisper truths to me-every time I read the Bible!         oh by the way,I am very much at peace, it seems to me that you are the unsettled one.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 28, 2009)

and furthermore,Diogenes, my original question was posed from a defensive standpoint to begin with. oh well, like my daddy used to say-"If everybody in the world were all the same, it sure would be a boring world!"


----------



## earl (Nov 28, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Really, they certainly agree on the others. So what is your point??  RW



My point would be that the difference in the texts translates to different Gods. I am still waiting for some one to tell me as a nonJew how to use their texts to get in a Christian heaven. The short answer is ,it can not be done .


----------



## earl (Nov 28, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I have no problem producing the first five books of the OT in Hebrew. They read the same. The difference is entirely one of interpretation.
> 
> As for the origin of the KJV, it does not seem to be relevant to the thread. The Torah and the first five books of the OT in Hebrew are the same. Would you suggest translating the first five books of the English KJV back into Hebrew? Why bother? We already have them in Hebrew.
> 
> You and earl have adopted a Judaic perspective on the matter, yet, to the best of my knowledge, no one involved in this discussion practices Judaism. Are you just trying to be argumentative?



Some of my interest in this subject goes back too a thread where LowJack claimed that God was Jewish. I seemed to be one of the only ones who disagreed. That led me to believe that any Christians who read that tread agreed. 

Usually we get hammered for ''dogging '' the Christians. Now we are taken to task for debating Judaism ??????????


----------



## Roberson (Nov 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Some of my interest in this subject goes back too a thread where LowJack claimed that God was Jewish. I seemed to be one of the only ones who disagreed. That led me to believe that any Christians who read that tread agreed.
> 
> Usually we get hammered for ''dogging '' the Christians. Now we are taken to task for debating Judaism ??????????


Earl, God is not jewish, but Jesus was!    God transcends race.  But I know what you mean.  i still hold that the Old Testament Jewish  God is the Christian God of today.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 28, 2009)

earl said:


> My point would be that the difference in the texts translates to different Gods. I am still waiting for some one to tell me as a nonJew how to use their texts to get in a Christian heaven. The short answer is ,it can not be done .



There are plenty of people who saw Jesus and accepted him as the Messiah. They only had the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah and saw or heard of them fulfilled. They believed and were saved. 

Yes it is a technicality. But if you heard of Jesus and knew the Jewish prophecies, you might believe without ever reading the New Testament. But this point is moot. The NT is very accessible to any who want to read it.


----------



## earl (Nov 28, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> Earl, God is not jewish, but Jesus was!    God transcends race.  But I know what you mean.  i still hold that the Old Testament Jewish  God is the Christian God of today.



''I am still waiting for some one to tell me as a nonJew how to use their texts to get in a Christian heaven.''
One more time and I'll let it go.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I don't believe that will be the case.  It certainly isn't what is taught in the Gospel of Jesus.
> 
> Jesus came into the world for the Jew first.  Jesus was Jewish.  He grew up studying the Law of Moses and the Prophets.
> Once he began His ministry He began teaching the Jews only.  Telling them, through words, miracles, quoting the Prophets, that the Messiah had come.  Jews began believing in Jesus.  Jews began spreading the news into all the world that the Messiah had come.
> ...



earl,  Isn't this the answer to your queston?


.


----------



## earl (Nov 28, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> There are plenty of people who saw Jesus and accepted him as the Messiah. They only had the Jewish prophecies of the Messiah and saw or heard of them fulfilled. They believed and were saved.
> 
> Yes it is a technicality. But if you heard of Jesus and knew the Jewish prophecies, you might believe without ever reading the New Testament. But this point is moot. The NT is very accessible to any who want to read it.





Main stream Jews do not believe the NT. They plan on getting into heaven based on their God .Not the NT God and certainly not through JC.    Different ,Not the same. Either that or 2 different ways to get to heaven.


----------



## earl (Nov 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> earl,  Isn't this the answer to your queston?
> 
> 
> .



No . I still haven't heard how both the Jew and the Christian God are the same .If I follow Judaism and it's version of God you say I can't be saved. Only through the Christian God. Others have said only through JC. According to your explanation of the trinity, which by the way was the best I have heard, Believing in the God of Judaism will get me no where. And then ya'll say they are the same.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Main stream Jews do not believe the NT. They plan on getting into heaven based on their God .Not the NT God and certainly not through JC.    Different ,Not the same. Either that or 2 different ways to get to heaven.



They still await their Messiah. 
If they all decided tomorrow that their Messiah was Jesus, would that change your mind? 

Just because they do not believe the prophecy hasn't been fulfilled, doesn't mean it hasn't.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 28, 2009)

earl said:


> Main stream Jews do not believe the NT. They plan on getting into heaven based on their God .Not the NT God and certainly not through JC.    Different ,Not the same. Either that or 2 different ways to get to heaven.




Here's your misunderstanding earl...........
The Jews who still practice Judaism trust in God.
They don't not accept the man Jesus as the Messiah.
For them, Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of God.
The Jews continue to believe in God as they always have.

Now, thru Christ, and the willingness of God, us non-Jews have been offered salvation.

God is the God of Jews, and gentiles.
But many Jews refuse to acknowledge that the Messiah has come.
But the God is the same.
If a Jew says it isn't the same God, they don't know much about their history.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 28, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And someone above went as far as to say all Jews will be saved regardless of their chosen belief system.
> Hmmmmmmm........


their belief system when they are saved will be Christianity. is that so hard to understand? "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery,brothers, so that you may not be conceited : Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full numbers of the Gentiles has come in. AND SO ALL ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED, for it is written:"The Deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob (Israel) .  And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins".        Romans 11: 25-27.  also read 11: 28-32.


----------



## Diogenes (Nov 29, 2009)

And if any of you stubborn idiots are still driving a Ford, after the advertising department of the Chevrolet company has gone to all that trouble to offer you the One Truth, and it is self evident, that Chevy is clearly the one and only True vehicle, then all we can do is pray for your poor misguided souls.

GM, 3.4: “Like a Rock.”  Which part of that do you fools not understand?  A Rock is Eternal, Solid, and undeniably True!  A Rock can neither be created nor destroyed, and Rocks are the very Foundation upon which all of Life Itself rests!  Refute That!  FOOLS!  It says so, right in the Book of Chevy!  Can’t you people even read?

Chevy, I say.  Your Ford is a false vehicle, conceived and propagated entirely by non-believers, and you know, Brothers and Sisters, that non-believers are the very spawn of Satan!  There is the One True Path, which is your only Way to the Holy Toll Booth, and there are the evil pretenders trying to lead you astray!  

I  say to the Evil nonbelievers that their theoretical nuts were harvested centuries ago, and if they feel differently then I recommend cold compresses for their ailments!  Our Sacred Chevy could split their hollow, toothless Fords quicker than Saint Thomas could split a hair from the Virgin’s hemorrhoidal behind in four, in or out of catechism!  No, I tell you! They are just pounding water in their mortar, as Buffet of blessed memory once said to William of Ockham over an epagogic pot of aglioli, there is no room at the inn for them, nor here either, and that is conclusive, absolute, categorical, and fortiori finito in spades!   So they can go and spread their filthy poxes among their misses of the opiates!  

Like a Rock.  Believe it my Brothers!  Do not waver in the face of heretics!  Stand firm!  Once they accept Chevy into their hearts, they will truly be Saved!


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 29, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> To the topic at hand -- God is not real.  Period.  Why folks throughout history have gone ahead and invented them, unfailingly and in thousands of incarnations, was because they were ignorant and scared.
> People invent Gods to take a short-cut between fear and understanding.





Diogenes said:


> If there is a God, as you describe and place characteristics of your own description upon; and if this God has chosen to endow only a small part of his creation with the gift of such pansophic knowledge; and if you assert yourself to be among those in possession of that knowledge; then one might think a certain amount of serenity might accompany that position of Divine privilege.  If not, which seems obvious, then what is the problem?  Is your ‘Belief’ so fractured and insecure that it cannot tolerate any questioning without referring back to itself by way of validation?  Seems a bit sheep-like to me . . .



Since there was no response to my first reply, I bring this up again. 
First, you assert something for which you have no proof. Period. 
Then you are so bold as to assert that you and those who think like you are the only ones to whom this knowledge was granted, while everyone else stumbles around in the dark. 
Then, you babble on defending your position and ranting about the craziness of our position. 
To finish it up and bring it all together in a nice hypocritical fashion, you rail about those who are so insecure as they cannot tolerate their beliefs being questioned and compare them to sheep. 

Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 29, 2009)

wow! diogenes you are sooooo wise! And to think I stumbled upon this most excellent wisdom here at a good ol' boy forum! Your words have changed my life. I'm sure 2,000 years from now people will still be reading your words, pondering them, wondering if you were just the god of the GON forum or of all outdoorsmen, or even if you ever existed..........


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 29, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> And if any of you stubborn idiots are still driving a Ford, after the advertising department of the Chevrolet company has gone to all that trouble to offer you the One Truth, and it is self evident, that Chevy is clearly the one and only True vehicle, then all we can do is pray for your poor misguided souls.
> 
> GM, 3.4: “Like a Rock.”  Which part of that do you fools not understand?  A Rock is Eternal, Solid, and undeniably True!  A Rock can neither be created nor destroyed, and Rocks are the very Foundation upon which all of Life Itself rests!  Refute That!  FOOLS!  It says so, right in the Book of Chevy!  Can’t you people even read?
> 
> ...



uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh,  If I might ask, how old are you.


----------



## Thanatos (Nov 29, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> And if any of you stubborn idiots are still driving a Ford, after the advertising department of the Chevrolet company has gone to all that trouble to offer you the One Truth, and it is self evident, that Chevy is clearly the one and only True vehicle, then all we can do is pray for your poor misguided souls.
> 
> GM, 3.4: “Like a Rock.”  Which part of that do you fools not understand?  A Rock is Eternal, Solid, and undeniably True!  A Rock can neither be created nor destroyed, and Rocks are the very Foundation upon which all of Life Itself rests!  Refute That!  FOOLS!  It says so, right in the Book of Chevy!  Can’t you people even read?
> 
> ...



Now you are on the right track. If Chevy trucks are your creator then so be it. At least you acknowledge there is a deity that is watching over you.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 29, 2009)

no wonder it took dio so long to speak his piece! He was writing this all day!


----------



## Roberson (Nov 29, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> And if any of you stubborn idiots are still driving a Ford, after the advertising department of the Chevrolet company has gone to all that trouble to offer you the One Truth, and it is self evident, that Chevy is clearly the one and only True vehicle, then all we can do is pray for your poor misguided souls.
> 
> GM, 3.4: “Like a Rock.”  Which part of that do you fools not understand?  A Rock is Eternal, Solid, and undeniably True!  A Rock can neither be created nor destroyed, and Rocks are the very Foundation upon which all of Life Itself rests!  Refute That!  FOOLS!  It says so, right in the Book of Chevy!  Can’t you people even read?
> 
> ...


............So,can ya'll believe the dawgs beat Tech last night?


----------



## earl (Nov 29, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Here's your misunderstanding earl...........
> The Jews who still practice Judaism trust in God.
> They don't not accept the man Jesus as the Messiah.
> For them, Jesus was not the Christ, the Son of God.
> ...



I continue to hear ,even in GC's post, that the Jews will be afforded a last chance to believe in Jesus. Is this for Jews only ? If so there arises my contention that there are in fact 2 ways to heaven. Or there are 2 Gods.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 29, 2009)

earl said:


> I continue to hear ,even in GC's post, that the Jews will be afforded a last chance to believe in Jesus. Is this for Jews only ? If so there arises my contention that there are in fact 2 ways to heaven. Or there are 2 Gods.




There is only one God.
And personally, I see nothing in God's word to make me believe that a Jew who rejects Jesus Christ will be saved.


----------



## earl (Nov 29, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> There is only one God.
> And personally, I see nothing in God's word to make me believe that a Jew who rejects Jesus Christ will be saved.



What is your explanation of GC's post 139 ?


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 30, 2009)

earl said:


> What is your explanation of GC's post 139 ?



Let me use an easy translation here to explain the point. God has actually allowed his "chosen people" to become as everyone else when it comes to the gospel. 
There is no "last chance," there is only the fact that eventually Israel will believe in Christ and be saved. See highlighted portions below. Israel will only stay blinded for a time, then they will open their eyes and believe. But as it stands right now, everyone is in disobedience unless you believe in Christ. 

Romans 11:
25 I want you to understand this mystery, dear brothers and sisters, so that you will not feel proud about yourselves. Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ. 26 And so all Israel will be saved. As the Scriptures say,

   “The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
      and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
   27 And this is my covenant with them,
      that I will take away their sins.”

   28 Many of the people of Israel are now enemies of the Good News, and this benefits you Gentiles. Yet they are still the people he loves because he chose their ancestors Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 29 For God’s gifts and his call Now they are the rebels, and God’s mercy has come to you so that they, too, will share in God’s mercy.can never be withdrawn. 30 Once, you Gentiles were rebels against God, but when the people of Israel rebelled against him, God was merciful to you instead. 31  32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.


----------



## pnome (Nov 30, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> If God is not real,why have all civilizations and tribes since the dawn of history felt the deep need to worship something bigger than themselves? Way before written languages? when did this "evolve"? Do even the most intelligent apes even vaguely feel the need to worship?



Sorry, I have not read this whole thread as I am just now getting to it.  I haven't read all the other responses.

What you have spelled out here is an argument from popularity. 

Just because a lot of people believe something, does not make it so.  For many years most people, in many diverse cultures, believed the Earth was flat and that the sun rotated around it.


----------



## earl (Nov 30, 2009)

ddd , please excuse my poor computer skills.

''26 And so all Israel will be saved.''   If by free will they have previously rejected Christ , Are they now ''forced'' to accept him ? If God opens Jewish eyes ,why not Gentiles at the same time ? Or is salvation a second hand gift to gentiles ?

''“The one who rescues will come from Jerusalem,
and he will turn Israel away from ungodliness.
27 And this is my covenant with them,
that I will take away their sins.”''
By free will ? Again ,why not every one ? 2 ways to heaven ?

The last part still sounds like the Gentiles are getting a second hand gift that the Jews turned their noses up at . It also still sounds like they are getting a last chance not afforded Gentiles. I am speaking of the people that are already dead at that time ,in addition to the living. Sounds like God is going to get all Jews into heaven one way or the other while the Gentiles go to hades.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 30, 2009)

pnome said:


> Sorry, I have not read this whole thread as I am just now getting to it.  I haven't read all the other responses.
> 
> What you have spelled out here is an argument from popularity.
> 
> Just because a lot of people believe something, does not make it so.  For many years most people, in many diverse cultures, believed the Earth was flat and that the sun rotated around it.


  Yes, but even after people knew the earth was round and we rotated around the sun, and countless other "mysteries" solved by science, God remains significant in most of the world's population. There remains still a deep need to worship something bigger than us, even today.


----------



## pnome (Nov 30, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> Yes, but even after people knew the earth was round and we rotated around the sun, and countless other "mysteries" solved by science, God remains significant in most of the world's population.



Well, not all questions have been answered.  "God" is a substitute for "I don't know" in the minds of a lot of people.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2009)

earl said:


> What is your explanation of GC's post 139 ?



I cannot fully tell you what those verses are referring to.
God will fully reveal it one day when He chooses.  God is a God of great mercy.  I'm proof of that.

But what ever occurs, all who enter into God's kingdom of heaven will be believers of Jesus Christ as God's Son.
Before a Jew enters into heaven, that Jew will be a believer in Jesus Christ.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Nov 30, 2009)

earl said:


> ddd , please excuse my poor computer skills.
> 
> ''26 And so all Israel will be saved.''   If by free will they have previously rejected Christ , Are they now ''forced'' to accept him ? If God opens Jewish eyes ,why not Gentiles at the same time ? Or is salvation a second hand gift to gentiles ?
> 
> ...



No one is forced. It is simply that they will see signs that help their unbelief. The gentiles will see these signs as well and many will also believe. That prophecy is speaking specifically to Jews. There is also a prophecy that says that salvation will come to the Gentiles and unbelievers as well.

Luke 3:
 4As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 
   5Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 
   6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.


Does this mean everyone will be saved? No. Just that ALL will have a chance to believe whether Jew or Gentile.


----------



## Roberson (Nov 30, 2009)

pnome said:


> Well, not all questions have been answered.  "God" is a substitute for "I don't know" in the minds of a lot of people.


"All" questions will never be answered. I believe that the answer to my original question,though,is that all people from all times have a void in their life that they try to fill with knowledge, sex, drugs, pleasure, money, food, hobbies, you name it. But this void will only be filled by God. At least that's been my experience, both personal and observable.


----------



## Ronnie T (Nov 30, 2009)

pnome said:


> Well, not all questions have been answered.  "God" is a substitute for "I don't know" in the minds of a lot of people.



Wow!  You really know a lot of stuff.


----------



## pnome (Dec 1, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Wow!  You really know a lot of stuff.



I think you might have misread my statement.  I was not trying to suggest that I know a lot of stuff.  I'm saying that most people, are not satisfied with a simple "I don't know".


----------



## pnome (Dec 1, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> "All" questions will never be answered. I believe that the answer to my original question,though,is that all people from all times have a void in their life that they try to fill with knowledge, sex, drugs, pleasure, money, food, hobbies, you name it. But this void will only be filled by God. At least that's been my experience, both personal and observable.



All people have a void in their knowledge that they try to fill with God.   This is why deities are created.  To explain the unexplained.


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 1, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> everything from creation theories to the flood have been convincingly, factually revealed to be nonsense, and the few stubborn hangers-on have been marginalized.



Oh I would LOVE to see the proof text on that statement. 

Dio, I've known you to be a lot of things.  But a "maker-upper" ain't one of them. 

Wanna show me where creation has been "convincingly, factually revealed to be nonsense"?

I'd love to see it.


----------



## Huntinfool (Dec 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Two statements I do not think even you could agree with. Did you not say in another thread:
> "Defending your point of view crashes on the rocks of incredulity the moment it is asserted as the ‘One Truth.’"
> 
> You are famous for stating that anyone who claims to hold the truth and tries to push it on others reaks of arrogance, ignorance and a total disregard for honest inquiry...right?
> ...


----------



## gtparts (Dec 1, 2009)

pnome said:


> All people have a void in their knowledge that they try to fill with God.   This is why deities are created.  To explain the unexplained.




So......what voids in your knowledge are you trying to fill with God? Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## gtparts (Dec 1, 2009)

I think I am going to write a book, "Atheists Say (and type) Some of the Silliest Things".

If you can think of a better title, let me know.


----------



## pnome (Dec 1, 2009)

gtparts said:


> So......what voids in your knowledge are you trying to fill with God? Inquiring minds want to know.



Ok, "all" people would be a poor choice of words.  Let's say 98% of people.


----------



## Roberson (Dec 2, 2009)

pnome said:


> All people have a void in their knowledge that they try to fill with God.   This is why deities are created.  To explain the unexplained.


 You say we believers have a void in our knowledge. I say you have a void in your soul. and probably knowledge, as well.


----------



## pnome (Dec 2, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> You say we believers have a void in our knowledge. I say you have a void in your soul. and probably knowledge, as well.



I certainly have many voids in my knowledge.   One of those voids is weather or not I have a thing called a "soul"


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Dec 2, 2009)

People are not atheists......they're just lost. 

No different from a person who believes theres' A  God....but doesn't know why.....they're just lost too.


----------



## Roberson (Dec 2, 2009)

BRANCHWYNN said:


> People are not atheists......they're just lost.
> 
> No different from a person who believes theres' A  God....but doesn't know why.....they're just lost too.



Very true, my friend.  there seems to be alot of these "Christians".


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Dec 2, 2009)

Gatorcountry said:


> Very true, my friend.  there seems to be alot of these "Christians".



Thats why I don't call myself a CHRISTIAN....I let someone else call me that.


----------



## BRANCHWYNN (Dec 2, 2009)

pnome said:


> I certainly have many voids in my knowledge.   One of those voids is weather or not I have a thing called a "soul"



Child like faith...thats what it takes. My son(9) killed his first deer two SATURDAYS ago. As he looked at her taking her last breathes, and her existence no more. He said something very  remarkable, I still wonder if he understood it himself. DADDY, its a shame she can't go to heaven like us....(pause), but thats okay, she doesn't have a SOUL, only a SPIRIT. 

At that moment, something dawned on me. We were created in HIS image. We all have SPIRIT, but he reveals to us our SOUL.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2009)

BRANCHWYNN said:


> Child like faith...thats what it takes. My son(9) killed his first deer two SATURDAYS ago. As he looked at her taking her last breathes, and her existence no more. He said something very  remarkable, I still wonder if he understood it himself. DADDY, its a shame she can't go to heaven like us....(pause), but thats okay, she doesn't have a SOUL, only a SPIRIT.
> 
> At that moment, something dawned on me. We were created in HIS image. We all have SPIRIT, but he reveals to us our SOUL.



Did you tell him that there's really no way to tell if either exists?


----------

