# Paul's salutations, no Holy Spirit?



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2018)

_To all that be in Rome, beloved of *God*, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord *Jesus Christ* (Romans 1:7). _
_Grace be to you, and peace, from *God our Father*, and from the *Lord Jesus Christ* (I Corinthians 1:3)._
_Grace be to you and peace from *God our Father*, and from the *Lord Jesus Christ* (II Corinthians 1:2)._
_Grace be to you and peace from *God the Father*, and from our *Lord Jesus Christ* (Galatians 1:3)._
_Grace be to you, and peace, from *God our Father*, and from the *Lord Jesus Christ* (Ephesians 1:2)._


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2018)

John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

In Jesus name we pray to the Father.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 17, 2018)

I don't consider this a disconnect, Art.  The Ephesian believers, for instance, were claimed by God for Himself, and He put His seal, the Holy Spirit, upon them (Eph. 1:13).

God's Holy Spirit enables the believers enjoy that incredible place of nearness/oneness and liberty God had given to them before the Father. This is seen in all the epistles, yes?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2018)

John 17:11
I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name, the name you gave me, so that they may be one as we are one.

What about the Holy Spirit? There seems to be a lot more Father and Son in scripture and not so much Holy Spirit. Maybe it was like the gospel. It was always there but people didn't see it. Grace was always there but people didn't see it. The true children were always there but people didn't see it.

You's think though by the time Paul came around, he would have been more on top of the Trinity. He could have used his revelation to explain it more. Unless that wasn't part of his revelation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2018)

Paul does teach the Holy Spirit as well as the others. Pentecostals really teach the Holy Spirit.

Jesus wanted the disciples to experience the unity he had with his Father. No mention of the unity he had with the Holy Spirit. Jesus will turn the Kingdom over to his Father. No mention of turning the Kingdom over to the Holy Spirit.

John 17:5
And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.

John 17:24
"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

Christianity seems to be more about the relationship or unity of God the Father with his Son than with the Holy Spirit.

The unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is there. It's just not mentioned as much as the unity of the Father and Son.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2018)

StriperAddict said:


> I don't consider this a disconnect, Art.  The Ephesian believers, for instance, were claimed by God for Himself, and He put His seal, the Holy Spirit, upon them (Eph. 1:13).
> 
> God's Holy Spirit enables the believers enjoy that incredible place of nearness/oneness and liberty God had given to them before the Father. This is seen in all the epistles, yes?



Followed with Ephesians 1:14
who is _the_ guarantee of our inheritance to _the_ redemption of the acquired possession, to _the_ praise of His glory.

Goes along with your Grace thread perfectly as well. 

I guess what I feel and is in your phrasing "God's Holy Spirit" is it's the Father's spirit. In other words when I hear the word "God" I think of the Father. God's spirit or God's son. Even if they are all in unity, to me it's the Father's son and the Father's spirit.
Just my way of thinking I guess.


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## welderguy (Jun 17, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus will turn the Kingdom over to his Father. No mention of turning the Kingdom over to the Holy Spirit.



Romans 14:17 
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

According to this text, the Holy Spirit is already very much involved in the kingdom.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 17, 2018)

God is Holy, God is spirit. Thus the NT's use of  "Holy Spirit", is not a surprise. Because of the new covenant. The spirit of God coming to live in the hearts of man rather than a temple of brick and mortar deserves a new way of referencing it. Really strange how "a third coequal person" of a triune god ever evolved, especially with so very little to substantiate it. Plus the complete void of it in any writings up to the 300's. Then the clear evidence of the battle of it's acceptance in the 400's. Clearly not "the gospel first entrusted to the saints"


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2018)

Today being Father's day and thinking of our Heavenly Father. A Father must have children or at least a child to be a Father.

If God always had a Son then he has always been a Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> God is Holy, God is spirit. Thus the NT's use of  "Holy Spirit", is not a surprise. Because of the new covenant. The spirit of God coming to live in the hearts of man rather than a temple of brick and mortar deserves a new way of referencing it. Really strange how "a third coequal person" of a triune god ever evolved, especially with so very little to substantiate it. Plus the complete void of it in any writings up to the 300's. Then the clear evidence of the battle of it's acceptance in the 400's. Clearly not "the gospel first entrusted to the saints"



I was thinking about how much scripture there is related to the Father and the Son but not the Holy Spirit so much. Verses like John 3:16 where God gave us his Son. It doesn't say God and the Holy Spirit gave us his Son. It's more like God giving us his Son and God giving us his Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Romans 14:17
> 17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
> 
> According to this text, the Holy Spirit is already very much involved in the kingdom.



Yes he is a big part of the Kingdom. Paul mentions Christ handing the Kingdom over to his Father. Why didn't Paul mention the Son and the Holy Spirit handing the Kingdom over to the Father?


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## welderguy (Jun 17, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes he is a big part of the Kingdom. Paul mentions Christ handing the Kingdom over to his Father. Why didn't Paul mention the Son and the Holy Spirit handing the Kingdom over to the Father?



Jesus told Nicodemus a person cannot even see the kingdom unless he is first regenerated by the Holy Spirit (born again).


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> God is Holy, God is spirit. Thus the NT's use of  "Holy Spirit", is not a surprise. Because of the new covenant. The spirit of God coming to live in the hearts of man rather than a temple of brick and mortar deserves a new way of referencing it. Really strange how "a third coequal person" of a triune god ever evolved, especially with so very little to substantiate it. Plus the complete void of it in any writings up to the 300's. Then the clear evidence of the battle of it's acceptance in the 400's. Clearly not "the gospel first entrusted to the saints"



The Spirit worked in the Old testament saints the same way as the new. We know this from the evidence of the fruit(Gal.5:22-23)
Hebrews 11 speaks of numerous old testament saints who received faith.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 18, 2018)

Why start with all of the other letters and not Paul's first letter? Why not First Thessalonians? If Paul had never mentioned the Holy Spirit that would be one thing, but it simply isn't so.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 18, 2018)

There is another absence of the HS.... in heaven?


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> There is another absence of the HS.... in heaven?



Everywhere present, nowhere absent.
(read Psalm 139)


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

I do realize that Paul and other writers write about the Holy Spirit. I realize the Holy Spirit is a big part of the Kingdom.

What I'm talking about though is the Holy Spirit isn't addressed along with the Father and Son that much. He is mostly mentioned working alone.
The Holy Spirit isn't mentioned when we think of the Father and Son relationship. The verses about that relationship don't consider the Holy Spirit.

The dialogue between the Father and his Son is in scripture. We don't see that dialogue between between the Father and his Spirit. We don't see the dialogue between the three.

We do see God speaking through the Spirit or working through the Spirit as he did through Jesus. Jesus talked to God when he did this. Maybe there are some verse where the Holy Spirit talks to God like Jesus did.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever--
or
And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,

John 16:17
But very truly I tell you, it is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

First Jesus is in a subordinate roll as Son "asking" his Father. True he is still on the earth, if this is your excuse. Second the Father will send another Helper." The Helper/Advocate/Councelor/Holy Spirit is being "sent" by the Father just as Jesus was sent by the Father.
God so love the world he gave us his Son. God will send us a Helper. 

Also appears that Jesus had a mission, returns to Heaven and the Holy Spirit appears for His mission.

John 7:39
He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

It's more like the Father is God and his Son and Spirit play subordinate roles. When scripture delves into it, it's the Father and his Son relationship or the Father and his Spirit relationship. Still though the unity of the three is there. 
God in the role of a powerful Father with his Son and Spirit as subordinates, doesn't take away from the Unity of the Three.

The Trinity is there, just not as co-equals.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 18, 2018)

In the OT, there is occasion of God's spirit moving among men to empower them


welderguy said:


> Everywhere present, nowhere absent.
> (read Psalm 139)


Nope, not one mention of the HS in heaven. We see visions of the Father and Son, but never the HS. If the son sits at the right hand of the Father, is the HS sitting on the left..???? It don't say.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

Maybe God and his Son have always been spiritual but with some tie to a later human existence. Man is created and God becomes human through his Son. Then we in turn can become spiritual through his Son, who once again has become spiritual as well.

In the process of the Son's unity with his Father, with the Son becoming man, dying on the Cross,  we are given a bit of this Unity through the Spirit of God. Eventually this unity grows until we see Jesus as he is.


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## j_seph (Jun 18, 2018)

Jesus told of the holy ghost
John 14
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Paul mentions in
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> In the OT, there is occasion of God's spirit moving among men to empower them
> 
> Nope, not one mention of the HS in heaven. We see visions of the Father and Son, but never the HS. If the son sits at the right hand of the Father, is the HS sitting on the left..???? It don't say.



Didn't read Psalm 139 did you?
Here, I'll help you.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in he11,behold, thou art there.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 18, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Didn't read Psalm 139 did you?
> Here, I'll help you.
> 
> 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
> 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in he11,behold, thou art there.


Your missing the point, but somehow, I think you know this. Where in the bible does it ever mention the HS in heaven as it does God and Jesus? Is the 3rd person of the trinity sitting at the left hand of God and Jesus on his right? We have many references to Jesus in heaven.... and God in heaven..... but no mention of the Holy Spirit. To further this..... Wonder why Jesus received the HS coming down on him in the form of a dove? Hmmmm, weird, the 3rd person coming on the 2nd person? Did he need receive the spirit of God? Or was this just some sort of demonstration? Weird


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

Is the Spirit of God in the Old Testament the same as the Holy Spirit sent as the Comforter at the request of Jesus?

Has anyone also thought it weird that a spirit has a spirit?  God being a spirit has a co-equal other spirit. Maybe there is only one Spirit that goes by the name God or Holy Spirit. Not actually a different persona, just a different name. I can't seem to see why God needs his own separate spirit since he as God is Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

j_seph said:


> Jesus told of the holy ghost
> John 14
> 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
> 
> ...



I'm not denying the existence of the Holy Ghost/Spirit. I'm wondering why he isn't mentioned in the same context or way that Jesus and God were. Did Jesus say My God and also his Holy Spirit, why have they forsaken me? Did Jesus pray to his Father and his Holy Spirit while he was on the earth? Was the Holy Spirit one of the "us" in Genesis mentioned when Adam sinned?
Did Paul consider the Holy Spirit in dialogue concerning the Father and Son? Wouldn't one think that if they were all three  co-equals, then all three of their personas would always be in the dialogue. I see mostly the Father and Son dialogue in scripture. 
Jesus mentions that everything he does is through the power of his Father. He doesn't say by the power of my Father and the Holy Spirit. Even if he gave up his 1/3 of the power during his incarnation, where is the Holy Spirit's power?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your missing the point, but somehow, I think you know this. Where in the bible does it ever mention the HS in heaven as it does God and Jesus? Is the 3rd person of the trinity sitting at the left hand of God and Jesus on his right? We have many references to Jesus in heaven.... and God in heaven..... but no mention of the Holy Spirit. To further this..... Wonder why Jesus received the HS coming down on him in the form of a dove? Hmmmm, weird, the 3rd person coming on the 2nd person? Did he need receive the spirit of God? Or was this just some sort of demonstration? Weird



Jesus said he would ask his Father to send a Comforter. Where did this Spirit come from if not Heaven? Was this Helper God's spirit or a totally different spirit sent by God?


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2018)

1 John 5:7 

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your missing the point, but somehow, I think you know this. Where in the bible does it ever mention the HS in heaven as it does God and Jesus? Is the 3rd person of the trinity sitting at the left hand of God and Jesus on his right?





Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus said he would ask his Father to send a Comforter. Where did this Spirit come from if not Heaven? Was this Helper God's spirit or a totally different spirit sent by God?


The difference in my belief is that I see the HS as merely God's spirit given as the new covenant. God is spirit and God is holy, thus the HS. In the OT the saints were not given his spirit to "overcome" as they have been in the NT. That's the gospel point. Where mankind failed to alter his nature through discipline, we have been given a new way, the spirit living within, as a constant. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Thus God's spirit should be referenced differently. And Jesus will not actually send him but rather made the way, set the new cov in motion. No coequal 3rd person of a trinity, just the spirit of God, referred to as the Holy Spirit


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 18, 2018)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 5:7
> 
> 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


This is a prime example of the corruption of a translation trying to force a doctrine. Just look at it in the greek..... and a 2nd grader would know he had been mislead.  Most bible students are aware of this????? and would not have posted it..... knowing it was a corruption. As I have always said. You can't learn the contents of the bible when approached from a devotional mindset. If your going to debate it, you got to know the issues.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 5:7
> 
> 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.



Hard to believe the  interpretation because it has Jesus giving testimony for himself. The Word is Jesus.

The testimony is Spirit (who never lies), the water and the blood.

For there are three that give testimony-- the Spirit, the water, and the blood;

the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

 How did Jesus come? Not by water alone. Many must have thought he came like the rest of us did, by water alone. He also came by blood (lineage of God). In other words he was born human (water), and also from God (blood,lineage). God was his Father. Divinity? The blood of God? 
God created Adam. Adam was not from water but blood. Jesus had an earthly Mother, he came from water. Water and blood.

John was trying to explain this concept. Therefore the Spirit, water, and blood testify as to Jesus being who John said he was.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> The difference in my belief is that I see the HS as merely God's spirit given as the new covenant. God is spirit and God is holy, thus the HS. In the OT the saints were not given his spirit to "overcome" as they have been in the NT. That's the gospel point. Where mankind failed to alter his nature through discipline, we have been given a new way, the spirit living within, as a constant. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant. Thus God's spirit should be referenced differently. And Jesus will not actually send him but rather made the way, set the new cov in motion. No coequal 3rd person of a trinity, just the spirit of God, referred to as the Holy Spirit



Was Jesus the first to receive the Holy Spirit?
The New Covenant has Jesus dying for our sins. What you are saying is that part of this New Covenant is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit to help us? Maybe to keep the great commandments of loving God and fellow man.

Wow, that's powerful when you think about it. Regardless of the Trinity belief or not, the Spirit of God living within you as a Helper or Comforter.
Maybe that's why Paul didn't include him in his salutation and Jesus didn't include him in his prayers.

They both knew it was God himself.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> This is a prime example of the corruption of a translation trying to force a doctrine. Just look at it in the greek..... and a 2nd grader would know he had been mislead.  Most bible students are aware of this????? and would not have posted it..... knowing it was a corruption. As I have always said. You can't learn the contents of the bible when approached from a devotional mindset. If your going to debate it, you got to know the issues.



One more question, do you think God is powerful enough to live within us  and be in Heaven at the same time? Without having to send a separate but equal 1/3 of himself to do it?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

When Jesus returns to the earth, what does scripture say the Holy Spirit will do?

Backing up to Creation, how does Scripture say he fit in to that mission? Was Creation created through Christ and the Holy Spirit?
Even if  in Word only? The Word was with God, was the Holy Spirit mentioned of being in Word with God?


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> This is a prime example of the corruption of a translation trying to force a doctrine. Just look at it in the greek..... and a 2nd grader would know he had been mislead.  Most bible students are aware of this????? and would not have posted it..... knowing it was a corruption. As I have always said. You can't learn the contents of the bible when approached from a devotional mindset. If your going to debate it, you got to know the issues.



So, you're one of those Sabellianists?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So, you're one of those Sabellianists?



Oneness Pentecostals believe that Jesus was "Son" only when he became flesh on earth, but was the Father before being made man. They refer to the Father as the "Spirit" and the Son as the "Flesh", but they believe that Jesus and the Father are one essential Person, though operating as different "manifestations" or "modes". Oneness Pentecostals reject the Trinity doctrine, viewing it as pagan and nonscriptural, and hold to the Jesus' Name doctrine with respect to baptisms. They are often referred to as "Modalists" or "Jesus Only". Oneness Pentecostalism can be compared to Sabellianism, or can be described as holding to a form of Sabellianism, as both are nontrinitarian, and as both believe that Jesus was "Almighty God in the Flesh", but they do not totally identify each other.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So, you're one of those Sabellianists?



Is God powerful enough to enter us directly instead of having to use a seperate but equal persona known as the Holy Spirit?

In which persona was God in when talking to Moses through the Burning Bush? Could God the Father do this and also be in Heaven or would it require the work of the Holy Spirit?

Is that how God has always work even in the Old Testamen? Through a separate but equal Holy Spirit instead of just God's spirit. So if we see Spirit or God's Spirit in the Old Testament, should we assume it's the Holy Spirit?


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## Israel (Jun 19, 2018)

The Holy Spirit doesn't testify "of Himself".

But when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.

But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 19, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hard to believe the  interpretation because it has Jesus giving testimony for himself. The Word is Jesus.
> 
> The testimony is Spirit (who never lies), the water and the blood.
> 
> ...


The thought here was assumed that the reader understood and did not need the details. But even the translators of the KJ did not know. Jesus, "a prophet likened to Moses" came by water and blood. When Moses told God, how will they know it is you who have sent me? God said, if they don't believe the first miracles, then take water from the nile and turn it to blood, and back again. When Jesus was hanging on the cross, they pierced his side and blood and water came out. The Spirit testifies to these things


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 19, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So, you're one of those Sabellianists?


No, I had to google that, I believe the gospel in it's simplest form. No extra biblical jargon, like hypostatic union, incarnation, one meaning 3, etc. Just simple terms, straight from the bible. I believe In God , one God, no parts, divisions, etc. One God. And in  Jesus being the firstborn of the Spirit, firstborn of many brothers,  having been a man in every way, no different than any other. Whom pleased God, .  A man, being made in the image of God, as all men were, did not consider equality with God as something to be had, as Eve had done, but made himself a servant, realizing that man was created to serve God rather than rival God, he humbled himself, even to the point of death on a cross, therefore God highly exalted him and gave him a name above all others. ......As the firstborn son receives all that the Father has in the OT, God was pleased to have all his fullness rest on him.


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## welderguy (Jun 19, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> No, I had to google that, I believe the gospel in it's simplest form. No extra biblical jargon, like hypostatic union, incarnation, one meaning 3, etc. Just simple terms, straight from the bible. I believe In God , one God, no parts, divisions, etc. One God. And in  Jesus being the firstborn of the Spirit, firstborn of many brothers,  having been a man in every way, no different than any other. Whom pleased God, .  A man, being made in the image of God, as all men were, did not consider equality with God as something to be had, as Eve had done, but made himself a servant, realizing that man was created to serve God rather than rival God, he humbled himself, even to the point of death on a cross, therefore God highly exalted him and gave him a name above all others. ......As the firstborn son receives all that the Father has in the OT, God was pleased to have all his fullness rest on him.



I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying you don't believe Jesus is God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 19, 2018)

1 Corinthians 8:6 
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Again the Holy Spirit is left out. We have but one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus. What about the Holy Spirit?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 20, 2018)

welderguy said:


> I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying you don't believe Jesus is God?


Sorry, but no. He is the Firstborn Son of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, but no. He is the Firstborn Son of God.



John 17:5 
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

I don't believe Jesus is God either. I also believe the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. I can't explain the Holy Spirit but I don't believe it is a desperate persona other than God. Paul never included the Holy Spirit in his salutations. If he thought him equal, he would be in the salutations. Paul did separate God and Jesus.

_To all who are in Rome_, _beloved of God, called to be saints: grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ_. (*Romans 1:7*) 

How do you explain the verse above? I can understand Jesus being in Word only but is this some out of time thing Jesus is talking about. I can even understand creation being made through Jesus without him being here yet.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, but no. He is the Firstborn Son of God.



The I would assume we'll see Jesus and God in Heaven? Some Trinitarians and Oneness believe we will only see God as Jesus in Heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

I believe Jesus co-existed with God as his Son. that means he had to have some form of pre-man spirit/soul. He was already a Son yet only spiritual. He became physical at his incarnation.

I believe he is in Heaven today as a man. That he is a seperate entity than God. That he will return to the earth as a man.
Does this mean that I believe in two Gods? Maybe Jesus doesn't have the divinity of his Father but uses his Father's divinity/power.

The Trinity as most believe it appears to me as a way most have chosen to explain the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. To me it makes appear they believe in three Gods but using Unity is an excuse that they aren't.
Oneness is a little better at an excuse because they only believe in one God who operates in the different modes of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I do believe in the unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

If Jesus pre-existed in Heaven with God, was he already man? Does a man have to have a body to be a man? Maybe he was already a man in spirit only. Can't we exist as man even after we die a physical death? 
This is sorta the belief of the LDS. We pre-existed as man but only as spirits. 

If we can exist as man in spirit form only then perhaps Christ can as well. He may be in Heaven today as a man. He may return as a man.
Some believe God, the one God, became Jesus at the incarnation of God. In other words, Christ didn't pre-exist except in Word and God became Christ. This is Oneness. They believe that God is now Jesus. Jesus only. God became man, one God. One God becoming man. God is now man. God is in heaven as that one man, Jesus. We can only experience God as Jesus from the time he became Jesus.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 20, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 17:5
> And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
> 
> I don't believe Jesus is God either. I also believe the Holy Spirit is God's spirit. I can't explain the Holy Spirit but I don't believe it is a desperate persona other than God. Paul never included the Holy Spirit in his salutations. If he thought him equal, he would be in the salutations. Paul did separate God and Jesus.
> ...


The translations got messed up when the writers tried to use the creation of God as a parallel to the new creation that comes through Christ. Just like if you were making an analogy of 2 different things, intending to merge them together at the correct time to make your point. But... then later, a copier, merged them together earlier, thus ruining the analogy. The proof in John 1 is that John tells us that "he is not the Christ". There is no way that John would tell us in the same breath that Jesus is God from the beginning,,,,,, and then also tell us essentially that I am not God.  [when he claims not to be the Christ] In other words, if he intends to say Jesus is God, then he would also be saying that he is not God. He would be stoned for claiming not to be God, as if he were in question as to whether he was or might be God.  When Jesus speaks of the glory I had with you before time began, [the curse, eternal rather than immortal, time begins, ageing] He is referring to himself as mankind, Adam, the glory that Adam lost in the fall. Jesus as the second Adam, he regained what the 1st Adam lost. The very reference to Jesus as the second Adam crushes any idea of preexistence.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

Jesus was Spirit and flesh. Does one need flesh to be a man? If so then we'll all wait in the ground until the Man returns for God to awaken us. If we must be physical to experience Heaven then we aren't "man" if we are only in spirit form.

Thus maybe Jesus did pre-exist as a man but in spirit form only. Then that spirit became flesh. Once flesh he used the power of his Father to do what he did. He had unity with his Father before his incarnation and he longed for that glory and unity once more.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 20, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Jesus pre-existed in Heaven with God, was he already man? Does a man have to have a body to be a man? Maybe he was already a man in spirit only. Can't we exist as man even after we die a physical death?
> This is sorta the belief of the LDS. We pre-existed as man but only as spirits.
> 
> If we can exist as man in spirit form only then perhaps Christ can as well. He may be in Heaven today as a man. He may return as a man.
> Some believe God, the one God, became Jesus at the incarnation of God. In other words, Christ didn't pre-exist except in Word and God became Christ. This is Oneness. They believe that God is now Jesus. Jesus only. God became man, one God. One God becoming man. God is now man. God is in heaven as that one man, Jesus. We can only experience God as Jesus from the time he became Jesus.


Everything was created in the 7 days. God does not create as he goes along. Everything has been set in motion. Some things are withheld, [with God] until times reach fulfillment, set forth by God. Thus much of these things, "to come" are created in word. God spoke and it was so. Jesus has been promised since the beginning of time to crush the serpent's heel. The word became flesh, times reached fulfillment, the promise of a savior had come to pass. The word meaning nothing more than promise being fulfilled. Not that mess created in John 1 by the translators.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 20, 2018)

Reread John 1, replacing the he's and him with "it" the correct, original intent, referring to the light. The light is the topic, and then at a point, John rolls the light analogy to Jesus. The translators correctly knowing it was about Jesus, incorrectly used him and he prematurely, thus ruining the analogy.,  Being that without the light [of the sun] there would not be any "emerging". Check the greek. No indication of creating, just moving from one point to another. Without Jesus as the mediator of a new covenant, there would be no new creation. John tells us he is not the light, thus the topic. Notice all the references to the light. This is the topic, the "it" that incorrectly was translated as he and him.


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## welderguy (Jun 20, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, but no. He is the Firstborn Son of God.



Why did Thomas say " my Lord and my God"?
And why didn't Jesus correct him?

John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

Earlier in the same chapter, why did Jesus say to  Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God?"


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Why did Thomas say " my Lord and my God"?
> And why didn't Jesus correct him?
> 
> John 20:28
> 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.



Also note that Thomas left out the Holy Spirit. Why didn't Jesus correct him?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 20, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Why did Thomas say " my Lord and my God"?
> And why didn't Jesus correct him?
> 
> John 20:28
> 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.


When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan...." Did he really mean Peter was Satan.....or was he referring to the work of Satan? Same thing with Jesus. The previous chapters, Jesus went on and on about how he could do nothing on his own, only through the power of his Father that was at work in him. Check it out, the 3 previous chapters, over and over. However.... I concede, that if you look only at this verse....and ignore all the others, like "the Father is greater than I" or context like Jesus having a God, or missing context like no recorded controversy that the extreme monotheistic Jews just accepted a new revelation that the one God has three parts.... I concede that standing alone..... this verse seemingly says Jesus is God


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

John 17:3
And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth.

One doesn't have to know the Holy Spirit?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

Salutations; Paul, Peter, and John;

“_Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ._” Romans 1:7
“_Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ._” 1 Corinthians 1:3
“_Grace be to you and peace from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ._” 2 Corinthians 1:2
“_Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,_” Galatians 1:3
“_Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ._” Ephesians 1:2
“_Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ._” Philippians 1:2
“_Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ._” Colossians 1:2
“_Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ._” 1 Thessalonians 1:1
“_Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ._” 2 Thessalonians 1:2
“_Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord._” 1 Timothy 1:2
“_Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord._” 2 Timothy 1:2
“_Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour._” Titus 1:4
“_Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ._” Philemon 1:3
“_Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,_” 2 Peter 1:2
“_Grace, mercy and peace will be with us, from God the Father and from Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father,_” 2 John 1:3


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## welderguy (Jun 20, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan...." Did he really mean Peter was Satan.....or was he referring to the work of Satan? Same thing with Jesus. The previous chapters, Jesus went on and on about how he could do nothing on his own, only through the power of his Father that was at work in him. Check it out, the 3 previous chapters, over and over. However.... I concede, that if you look only at this verse....and ignore all the others, like "the Father is greater than I" or context like Jesus having a God, or missing context like no recorded controversy that the extreme monotheistic Jews just accepted a new revelation that the one God has three parts.... I concede that standing alone..... this verse seemingly says Jesus is God



Well, since you don't accept Thomas calling Jesus "God", how about when the Father calls Him "God"?

Heb.1:8
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

Hebrews 1:9
You love justice and hate evil. Therefore, O God, your God has anointed you, pouring out the oil of joy on you more than on anyone else."

You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; this is why God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your companions.

Hebrews 1:4
So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

"became?" The always being 1/3 of the Godhead "became" superior to the angels?

After reading verse 4, we see that Jesus became superior to the angels. In verse 9, oh God(god), your God has anointed you.
The God of you has anointed you. Your God has anointed you.

Again, you can't pick one verse out of the concept of the passage. There is no way God in any form could "become" superior to angels. There is no way for God to "anoint" God.

Psalm 45:6-7
Your throne, O God, will last forever and ever; the scepter of justice will be the scepter of Your kingdom. 7You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has placed you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.

And again, the Holy Spirit is missing from the dialogue.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 20, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> When Jesus said to Peter, "get behind me Satan...." Did he really mean Peter was Satan.....or was he referring to the work of Satan? Same thing with Jesus. The previous chapters, Jesus went on and on about how he could do nothing on his own, only through the power of his Father that was at work in him. Check it out, the 3 previous chapters, over and over





welderguy said:


> Well, since you don't accept Thomas calling Jesus "God", how about when the Father calls Him "God"?
> 
> Heb.1:8
> 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.


You left off verse 9. Interesting that you think I ignore a verse, yet your doing the same, are you not? Verse 9 says Jesus has a God. "Therefore God, your God, has annointed you". So.... what is going on here? Lets look at the context. God says to let all the angels worship him. If he were God, would that not be assumed. He tells us that Jesus is greater than the angels. Hmmm, would that not be assumed, if the writer just told us that Jesus is God. The context is that God has made Jesus greater than all. Hmmmm, made him this way? Was he not already. Clearly, the writer of Hebrews has used verse 8 to clarify where the next verse is coming from. Apparently he wanted to draw attention to the Psalms verse and used a previous verse to help identify it. The writer is not saying unto the son he called him God, but rather pointing to a verse that is the same context as the context he is expounding on. The context is that Jesus has been made higher than the angels, not that he is God. Read it again, I concede that standing entirely alone.... it seemingly says Jesus is God. But you have to consider the context. Jesus has a God, Jesus was not greater before, Jesus is greater than the angels. If the writer had wanted to say Jesus is God then he would not go on to say that he was greater than the angels. Hmmmm, you have about ran out of the 5 or 6 go to verses. A few  left, but they no longer,  standing alone, seemingly look like Jesus is called God. After those 2, it gets much easier on my part. Again, you will think I am ignoring what it says. So why did you ignore that it says Jesus has a God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2018)

Hebrews 1:3
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.

Hebrews 10:12
But our High Priest offered himself to God as a single sacrifice for sins, good for all time. Then he sat down in the place of honor at God's right hand.

Would not this be at or in a subordinate place or role? The right hand of his God? The God, oh god?

Again, no mention of the Holy Spirit.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 21, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 1:3
> The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature, upholding all things by His powerful word. After He had provided purification for sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
> 
> Hebrews 10:12
> ...


Adam failed to represent God to the world, yet Jesus represented him so well that he was credited with being the exact representation of his being


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> You left off verse 9. Interesting that you think I ignore a verse, yet your doing the same, are you not? Verse 9 says Jesus has a God. "Therefore God, your God, has annointed you". So.... what is going on here? Lets look at the context. God says to let all the angels worship him. If he were God, would that not be assumed. He tells us that Jesus is greater than the angels. Hmmm, would that not be assumed, if the writer just told us that Jesus is God. The context is that God has made Jesus greater than all. Hmmmm, made him this way? Was he not already. Clearly, the writer of Hebrews has used verse 8 to clarify where the next verse is coming from. Apparently he wanted to draw attention to the Psalms verse and used a previous verse to help identify it. The writer is not saying unto the son he called him God, but rather pointing to a verse that is the same context as the context he is expounding on. The context is that Jesus has been made higher than the angels, not that he is God. Read it again, I concede that standing entirely alone.... it seemingly says Jesus is God. But you have to consider the context. Jesus has a God, Jesus was not greater before, Jesus is greater than the angels. If the writer had wanted to say Jesus is God then he would not go on to say that he was greater than the angels. Hmmmm, you have about ran out of the 5 or 6 go to verses. A few  left, but they no longer,  standing alone, seemingly look like Jesus is called God. After those 2, it gets much easier on my part. Again, you will think I am ignoring what it says. So why did you ignore that it says Jesus has a God?



Not ignoring anything purposely. I think the disconnect here is that you are seeing the concept of Jesus' temporary divesting of His glory and applying it to His eternal existence. It is true that while He was on this Earth, He gave up much of His former majesty. But, it's very important to realize this was only temporary, so that He could be our faithful high priest tempted in ALL points, like as we are. It was the only way. But when the atonement was finished, He was restored by the Father to the glory He had before the world began. He was always God. Even as a man He was God. 

As a side note, let me also insert this. While Jesus was on earth, He did not flaunt His position. There is a reason for this. He remained humble in every way, not exalting Himself above anyone. In this way, many were blinded to His purpose and position....many are still blinded to it. But it's by divine purpose.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 21, 2018)

There is an OT concept that is lost on todays bible thumpers.  Everything was created "in word" in the seven days. God spoke everything into being although most of it existing "in word" only. The OT saints were commended for considering God's words/promises as fact, although not yet come to pass. Each of us were foreknown from the beginning. So, in word, it all preexisted. Yet, only Adam   had glory with God before time began  [ the curse].  Jesus speaking as "the second Adam", speaks of what man lost and now regained.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> There is an OT concept that is lost on todays bible thumpers.  Everything was created "in word" in the seven days. God spoke everything into being although most of it existing "in word" only. The OT saints were commended for considering God's words/promises as fact, although not yet come to pass. Each of us were foreknown from the beginning. So, in word, it all preexisted. Yet, only Adam   had glory with God before time began  [ the curse].  Jesus speaking as "the second Adam", speaks of what man lost and now regained.



So maybe we didn't pre-exist as spirits but in Word only. We were already created, God knew us, we just weren't inserted into the story line yet.

But Jesus was aware of his pre-existance with God, with his Father.


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> So maybe we didn't pre-exist as spirits but in Word only. We were already created, God knew us, we just weren't inserted into the story line yet.
> 
> But Jesus was aware of his pre-existance with God, with his Father.



Art, do you believe Jesus is God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Art, do you believe Jesus is God?



No, I believe he is the Son of God. I believe he has always been. I believe he has always been a subordinate Son to his Father. I don't believe he became a subordinate Son at his incarnation. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
I believe in the unity of the three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

If I had to choose between a Trinity belief and Oneness, I would choose Oneness. I can see God becoming the Son more than God always existing as a Father and Son.

Notice how in most Trinity dialogues the Holy Spirit is not presented as often? We don't pray to the Holy Spirit. We don't sing; "The Holy Spirit loves the little Children."
Do you hear that the Holy Spirit loves you as much as you hear that God and Jesus love you?
1/3 of the Godhead and he isn't even presented as equal. Even if God and Jesus were equal it doesn't appear the Holy Spirit is as well.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 21, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> ...1/3 of the Godhead...


For a long time now you have fractionalized God.
Has it ever occurred to you that that could be a very elementary problem.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 21, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> So maybe we didn't pre-exist as spirits but in Word only. We were already created, God knew us, we just weren't inserted into the story line yet.
> 
> But Jesus was aware of his pre-existance with God, with his Father.





Artfuldodger said:


> No, I believe he is the Son of God. I believe he has always been. I believe he has always been a subordinate Son to his Father. I don't believe he became a subordinate Son at his incarnation. I believe the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God.
> I believe in the unity of the three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
> 
> If I had to choose between a Trinity belief and Oneness, I would choose Oneness. I can see God becoming the Son more than God always existing as a Father and Son.
> ...


Your close to what Arius believed.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> For a long time now you have fractionalized God.
> Has it ever occurred to you that that could be a very elementary problem.



Are you Oneness?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your close to what Arius believed.



I believe so. Regardless of exactly how we believe, there is a certain mystery about God's power and his unity and Oneness.

Does the singular one God become man? Does the persona known as Christ, co-equal to the Father, become man?
I believe the Father/Son relationship is eternal with no beginning or end. I do see as many holes in my belief as I see in the others, especially the Trinity and Oneness.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

1 Corinthians 2:10-12
But God has revealed it to us by the Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of man except his own spirit within him? So too, no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.   12We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

Interesting the Spirit searches the deep things of God. Our own spirit knows our thoughts.
My spirit knows my thoughts. God's Spirit knows my thoughts. My spirit through the help of God's Spirit can guide me.
Does that make me a trinity or does it just show unity?
Does this process in any way fractionalize God? If anything it shows the Oneness and Unity of God.

Maybe man likes to put everything in a box. We need labels. Thinking more about my own trinity of body, soul, and spirit.
Then compare that to God's Trinity. The Father(soul), the Son,(body), and the Holy Spirit(spirit).

Some of this from
*CATHOLIC DOORS MINISTRY* 
https://www.catholicdoors.com/know/godv.htm

I haven't read it all but it looks interesting.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 21, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you Oneness?


I don't know what that is, do you?
It could be a lot of things.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I don't know what that is, do you?
> It could be a lot of things.



I call it Unity. Others see it as God becoming Jesus but not having always been Jesus. God isn't divided into always being fractions, he just changes modes.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I don't know what that is, do you?
> It could be a lot of things.



When the Holy Spirit awakens a person's spirit to their guilt? To their spirit's understanding that Jesus is their redeeming Savior?
Does he enlighten them as to his persona of the Godhead or does that come later?

I guess what I'm seeking and this is not really a Trinity vs something else question. When a person "believes?"
Maybe in a small African village. They have been awakened by the Spirit of God. They believe God sent his Son . They believe in the Father and the Son.
How do they learn of the concept if the Trinity? Is this a part of their effectual calling/special revelation?

When someone is suddenly filled with the Spirit of God, how does he know it is a 1/3 co-equal part of the Godhead and not just the Spirit of God? Even if they are the same? You may know that they are but how does this new believer know?


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## hummerpoo (Jun 21, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I call it Unity. Others see it as God becoming Jesus but not having always been Jesus. God isn't divided into always being fractions, he just changes modes.





Artfuldodger said:


> When the Holy Spirit awakens a person's spirit to their guilt? To their spirit's understanding that Jesus is their redeeming Savior?
> Does he enlighten them as to his persona of the Godhead or does that come later?
> 
> I guess what I'm seeking and this is not really a Trinity vs something else question. When a person "believes?"
> ...


I'm lost.  You have everything from Sabellianism to special revelation to sanctification mixed up in that hash.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 21, 2018)

The Holy Spirit coming to dwell within man, the new covenant is contrasted with the Spirit of God living in the temple. Luke's debut of the HS on mankind is likened to the spirit of God coming to dwell in the temple Solomon built. It was the Spirit of God then, so it would seem that it would also be the Spirit of God in the NT. [not a coequal 3rd person of a triune God]


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2018)

Was reading how scripture originally didn't have small letters or punctuation. Later the translators made it easier to read by adding it.
Now we may see spirit of God or God is spirit, Holy Spirit, spirit, or Spirit. I think the word is "pnuema." The translators decide how God was using this as they saw fit. May also mean wind or breath.
We have fruit of the light or fruit of the spirit.

One translation used Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit. I think others originally did but over time quit using Holy Ghost. So even it was the same word it may be used a Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit, God's spirit, Spirit, spirit, etc.
Then we have Word,word, him, Him, God, and god. All at the mercy of how the translator thought God wanted him to use it.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 22, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was reading how scripture originally didn't have small letters or punctuation. Later the translators made it easier to read by adding it.
> Now we may see spirit of God or God is spirit, Holy Spirit, spirit, or Spirit. I think the word is "pnuema." The translators decide how God was using this as they saw fit. May also mean wind or breath.
> We have fruit of the light or fruit of the spirit.
> 
> ...


However, those who choose to disregard the work of those men, who have made the translation of scripture their life's work, on the basis of their use of Strong's or other similar tools, or based on an idiosyncratic theological approach, are on a fool's errand.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 22, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was reading how scripture originally didn't have small letters or punctuation. Later the translators made it easier to read by adding it.
> Now we may see spirit of God or God is spirit, Holy Spirit, spirit, or Spirit. I think the word is "pnuema." The translators decide how God was using this as they saw fit. May also mean wind or breath.
> We have fruit of the light or fruit of the spirit.
> 
> ...


If you find this interesting, look at how they recklessly translated the word master. Lord, lord, master, Lord God, etc. They same exact word for Lord was used for Peter, if I recall, maybe it was another disciple.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 22, 2018)

Here is one translation, the first that popped up. How can this be? 
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from kuros (authority)
Definition
lord, master
NASB Translation
lord (10), Lord (626), Lord of lords (2), Lord's (12), lords (1), master (38), master's (3), masters (8), masters' (1), owner (6), owners (1), sir (11), sirs (1).


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 22, 2018)

Here is another: 
*The KJV translates Strong's G2962 in the following manner:* Lord (667x), lord (54x), master (11x), sir (6x), Sir (6x), _miscellaneous_ (4x).


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2018)

A couple of things I was looking into. One was that we are made in the image of God. God is a Trinity so therefore so are we. God being spirit, body, and soul. Man in that image being spirit, body, and soul.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2018)

The other thing is that some people believe the the Holy Spirit is Jesus. Thus the term Holy Ghost. Starting with whose spirit was resurrected. Jesus said he would send another Comforter. Jesus in body being the first Comforter and his spirit to return being the "another."
Jesus being a man may have his own spirit. I guess that spirit went an preached before his resurrection. Although Jesus said God would send the Spirit. Jesus also talked about himself in third party such as you should believe in the Son, etc.

1 Corinthians 15:45
Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
(Jesus "became?")

The Scriptures tell us, "The first man, Adam, became a living person." But the last Adam--that is, Christ--is a life-giving Spirit.
(Maybe a better translation.)

2 Corinthians 3:17
Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
(is this the Spirit of God or Jesus Paul is referring to?)

Then we've got in Acts to be baptized in the name of Jesus to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Thoughts? It gets really confusing to me if Jesus had two spirits, one being God and the other his man spirit. Unless it's the same unity we have. Our two spirits, one our man spirit and the other God's Spirit.

So I would assume if one believed the Holy Spirit was that of Jesus, it would have to be his human spirit and not God's Spirit.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 22, 2018)

We need to factor in the beliefs of the writers at the time period they wrote it to understand what it is that they intended to say. Otherwise, we would be putting words in their mouth. I don't think early church fathers nor NT writers ever believed in Body, spirit and soul. Body and Spirit, yes, the soul and spirit being used interchangeable, not separate.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 22, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> The other thing is that some people believe the the Holy Spirit is Jesus. Thus the term Holy Ghost. Starting with whose spirit was resurrected. Jesus said he would send another Comforter. Jesus in body being the first Comforter and his spirit to return being the "another."
> Jesus being a man may have his own spirit. I guess that spirit went an preached before his resurrection. Although Jesus said God would send the Spirit. Jesus also talked about himself in third party such as you should believe in the Son, etc.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 15:45
> ...


The whole spirit concept sort of freaks me out, Jesus becoming one with the Father, us becoming one with Christ. I honestly don't see it. No where. No where have I ever witnessed a true Christ like life. I have seen equal good come from secular people. I have seen equal good done by secular organizations. I have never seen a paralyzed man get up and walk.I have never seen anything that resembles a higher power living in us. That's hard for me to admit, because I have believed it so..... because it was written. But truly Paul believed it so. And taught it. Context is that man had no power to change his nature proved by 1000's of years of trying. So God made a new covenant that his spirit dwell in us giving us overcoming power..... and being an eternal spirit, thus we shall die only a physical death. But sadly, I don't see it. Every church I ever been in did not display it. Speaking in tounges is a mere joke. No one has the gift of miracles, no one has the gift of  "true" love.  One might say that just because you have not experienced it does not mean it's not so. True, but I have seen it NO where. And if anyone says they have experienced it, then I would point them to secular people whom have had "experiences" as well. The only difference in me and another is that I am brave enough to admit it. For someone whom will say, "i was delivered from drugs"...... hmmmm, just as many secular can say the same.  If I really look to the scriptures, I should see REAL miracles, in my day. I should see churches with power, not membership. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it..... Hmmmm, at this point, I have to consider that Jesus did not say this


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2018)

What does one make of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? What about the fruit of the Holy Spirit? The awakening by the Holy Spirit? True it may only be another name of God's spirit but isn't there enough scripture that God or Jesus sent a Comforter/Helper?

If Paul believed it then shouldn't we? If Jesus was just a man, didn't he have to have the anointing of God's spirit to do what he did? The anointing to let him use the power of God? Isn't that where Jesus said he got all of his power?

Isn't the fruit of the Spirit the proof one needs that their salvation took?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2018)

Was thinking about when people say God blesses them more than non-believers. Then when Christians get sick or loose a job they quote the verse about God rains on the just and unjust.
Maybe people do read into or out of the Bible what they want it to say.

I can see where one would think maybe this indwelling doesn't help or comfort. I will admit it that I see the rain on the just and unjust equally even with the indwelling of the Spirit.
Some Christian drug abusers make it through rehab and some don't. Some Atheist drug users make it and some don't.

Ezekiel 36:27 
"I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.

It appears it didn't help the Jews or God's Chosen back in the Old Testament. They had the Holy Spirit.

From Paul;
1 Corinthians 3:16 
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Romans 8:11 
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
(Notice "the Spirit of Him")

What about all of those verses Paul wrote about that will keep someone from inheriting the Kingdom of God? Even with the indwelling of God's Spirit, we still need such warnings.

I can see it too. Just not always sure what to make of it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 22, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> We need to factor in the beliefs of the writers at the time period they wrote it to understand what it is that they intended to say. Otherwise, we would be putting words in their mouth. I don't think early church fathers nor NT writers ever believed in Body, spirit and soul. Body and Spirit, yes, the soul and spirit being used interchangeable, not separate.



Maybe if they could justify their own trinity, they could see being made in the image of God as a Trinity. It appears though it has always been more about just Two. The Father and his Son. Body and Spirit. Man's body and spirit. Flesh and spirit. The Light and evil. 

I hear mind, body, and spirit used sometimes. But if sin is from flesh and death is from flesh then the mind would have to be part of that flesh. That leaves only spirit that can be born of Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2018)

Posted this on something else but maybe this topic is related to ruling and reigning. The head of Christ is God; Where is the Holy Spirit in this verse?

1 Corinthians 11:3 
But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Could this all be connected? Father and Son? Male and female humans? The Bridegroom and the Bride? As to who is head of who?


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## Israel (Jun 26, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> The whole spirit concept sort of freaks me out, Jesus becoming one with the Father, us becoming one with Christ. I honestly don't see it. No where. No where have I ever witnessed a true Christ like life. I have seen equal good come from secular people. I have seen equal good done by secular organizations. I have never seen a paralyzed man get up and walk.I have never seen anything that resembles a higher power living in us. That's hard for me to admit, because I have believed it so..... because it was written. But truly Paul believed it so. And taught it. Context is that man had no power to change his nature proved by 1000's of years of trying. So God made a new covenant that his spirit dwell in us giving us overcoming power..... and being an eternal spirit, thus we shall die only a physical death. But sadly, I don't see it. Every church I ever been in did not display it. Speaking in tounges is a mere joke. No one has the gift of miracles, no one has the gift of  "true" love.  One might say that just because you have not experienced it does not mean it's not so. True, but I have seen it NO where. And if anyone says they have experienced it, then I would point them to secular people whom have had "experiences" as well. The only difference in me and another is that I am brave enough to admit it. For someone whom will say, "i was delivered from drugs"...... hmmmm, just as many secular can say the same.  If I really look to the scriptures, I should see REAL miracles, in my day. I should see churches with power, not membership. If you ask anything in my name, I will do it..... Hmmmm, at this point, I have to consider that Jesus did not say this



If we pin our hopes and understanding (or rather lack of hope) only upon what "we have seen" to know and_ assume a ready stance_ to contradiction of any report otherwise, I have a care that _such a man _is on a course of shipwreck.

I do not say this as a shame. I simply say this as one who is beginning to learn how much, and how often I find myself in the place of needing to see "what I have never seen before". God knows the times and appointments.

I cannot deny I have had, or found myself in winnowing situations. I think we all have. Those places of reduction, those places of being "stripped down" to naked need. Things seemingly lost or taken, upon which we discover in their loss, a footing appears removed. We _feel very much_ at those times...a thing that has been defended and kept covered to assault is now, as our most sensitive part...exposed. Everything seems a torment to it.

Our "hearts" are truly out there. Exposed and vulnerable well beyond our previous imagining as to its sensitivity. A thorns brush against skin may cause a small tear, a scrape...but here...with heart exposed, thorns can inflict mortal wounds.

It's like I see your heart hanging out and would only plead...hang on brother, be careful of throwing away your confidence.

I have no need to "defend" against you...you are where you are. And we are what we are by the grace of God.

The joke you speak of, of tongues may not yet be to us as either perceive.

But a man may come to a place where the truth of the "foolishness of God" being greater than man's wisdom is _made to him _more than merely a quote. Man speaks to himself...all the time in _an assumed_ knowing. Jesus is privy to these conversations.

One man spoke to his soul of what would be the outcome of building bigger barns.

Some others he warned "And do not say within yourselves 'we have Abraham as our Father' "

A man may be so won to have little regard of even appearing _a fool to himself_ in not knowing to a boasting that the wisdom of God is showered upon him. Such a man said "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than you all" It was of so little consequence to him that he "makes sense to himself" for all his _previous sensing_ of order had been shown for what it was.


Something had totally usurped his necessity of ordering himself, of himself that he became totally unashamed of being a fool for Christ. Such a man was made open to seeing things _he had never seen before_. And his testimony is full of references to words in which he was so well schooled (The Tanakh) as a man "of letters"...but which, till the Spirit's work within...had remained hidden to his understanding.

I plead with you only as brother, remain open to the God and Father of Jesus Christ, for things likewise you have never seen (yet), nor understood...before. That the power of Christ rest upon you. And God turn all weakness...to strength.

May we all be made ready to see and receive "a _thing_ we have never seen before".


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, but no. He is the Firstborn Son of God.




1 John 3:16 
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

God  "laid down his life for us".


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 3:16
> 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> God  "laid down his life for us".



Wouldn't that be more of a Oneness belief? That God died on the cross? That would also make God a creature. 
Even if Jesus is God, wasn't it his man nature that died? His physical body and perhaps his man spirit. Maybe just his human body.

Now getting back to 1 John 3:16, only a few of the translations use "God". The others use Christ or He.

Interesting to know what the original Greek or Hebrew said. Then again if God gave these men later the power to write his Words, they must all be right.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2018)

_Theopassianism_, teaches that God Himself suffered death on the cross. _Patripassianism_ indicates that the Father suffered vicariously through the suffering of His Son.
Even to say that the second person of the Trinity died would also mean that God died. 

https://www.ligonier.org/blog/it-accurate-say-god-died-cross/


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 3:16
> 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> God  "laid down his life for us".


Oh my, dude, you have got to become a bible student. Nowhere in the Greek does it say God. If your going to play apologist, then you have got to learn to check the greek so that you don't keep stepping in your own trap


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2018)

Why is Jesus the second person of the Trinity? Why did the second person incarnate instead of the first person of the Trinity?

Then we have the Holy Spirit as the third person. Why wouldn't the Holy Spirit be the first person of the Trinity? Making the Father first person seems to make him have more importance than the second and third persons.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Oh my, dude, you have got to become a bible student. Nowhere in the Greek does it say God. If your going to play apologist, then you have got to learn to check the greek so that you don't keep stepping in your own trap


Type in any verse and "biblehub" on the right in blue will be the verse along with the before and after. Then look up higher at the dselection bar. Click the "greek". You can then see the exact greek, even look left and it will show you the greek word, click it, it will show how many times translated as this, or that. You would be able to see that God is not in the verse. It simple say love, not love of God, and it says "he", not God, not Jesus. But we assume it's Jesus. If you assume it's God, then so be it. But you can't play that card as a wildcard


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Oh my, dude, you have got to become a bible student. Nowhere in the Greek does it say God. If your going to play apologist, then you have got to learn to check the greek so that you don't keep stepping in your own trap



OK Builder, here is one for you;

Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.

Spirit being pneumatos but exactly how can one blaspheme only one persona of a three persona God? Paul did single out the Spirit of God and not God.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(31) The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost.--Better, against the Spirit, the word "Holy" not being found in any MSS. of authority.

Read this;

"Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit has to do with accusing Jesus Christ of being demon-possessed instead of Spirit-filled."

Maybe then it means they were saying Jesus was performing his works by the magic of demons instead of the Spirit of God.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> 1 John 3:16
> 16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> God  "laid down his life for us".





Artfuldodger said:


> OK Builder, here is one for you;
> 
> Matthew 12:31
> And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
> ...


 Blasphemy was a claim to be God. Someone can claim to be Jesus, or the messiah, and be forgiven. However, no one can claim to be God and be forgiven. The use of HS is just another name, a NT name for God. Context..... Eve did not want to serve God. She wanted to be like him to rival God. This is how the saints will know whom the false antichrist is. Jesus would never claim to be God. If he did then he has become God's rival. But he did not, being made in his image, as man is made in the image of God, he humbled himself, realized that man is meant to serve god, not rival him. He was obedient even to death on a cross. Therefore God was pleased and gave him a name above all names that at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow. He is where he is because he did not rival God. This OT context is so overlooked. It's the basis of everything.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by _his_ Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; [the NIV has universe]. The greek word is clearly "ages". The 1st age, the age of grace and the age to come. So much in the bible about the ages


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Oh my, dude, you have got to become a bible student. Nowhere in the Greek does it say God. If your going to play apologist, then you have got to learn to check the greek so that you don't keep stepping in your own trap



It's translated "love of God" because it's the agape love. A term that had not been used previously . It's the sacrificial love. Godly love.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> It's translated "love of God" because it's the agape love. A term that had not been used previously . It's the sacrificial love. Godly love.


Look at Romans 5:5. The writers are perfectly capable of including "of God" if they wish. In Romans 5:5 it has agape of Theos.


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## welderguy (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Look at Romans 5:5. The writers are perfectly capable of including "of God" if they wish. In Romans 5:5 it has agape of Theos.



So we agree that "agape love" = "love of God". correct?

Then.....if this is so:

Romans 13:10
10 Love(agape)worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love(agape) is the fulfilling of the law.

....and Jesus did this:

Matthew 5:17
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

....then "love of God"="love of Jesus"...agape


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So we agree that "agape love" = "love of God". correct?
> 
> Then.....if this is so:
> 
> ...


No, we don't. You get all that agape stuff from church.... not from definitions.

Strong's Concordance
agapé: love, goodwill
Original Word: ἀγάπη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: agapé
Phonetic Spelling: (ag-ah'-pay)
Short Definition: love
Definition: love, benevolence, good will, esteem; plur: love-feasts.


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