# Man gets probation for killing panther



## SmokyMtnSmoke (Aug 25, 2011)

This guy needed a better lawyer! 

What do you think?


http://www.ajc.com/news/man-gets-probation-for-1137800.html


A man who admitted to killing an endangered Florida panther while hunting in Georgia was sentenced to two years' probation and ordered to pay a $2,000 fine.
Enlarge photo
David Adams, 60, was on a deer hunting trip in Troup County in November 2008 when he shot and killed a cougar, known as a Florida panther.
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service David Adams, 60, was on a deer hunting trip in Troup County in November 2008 when he shot and killed a cougar, known as a Florida panther.

David Adams, 60, formerly of Newnan, also loses the right to a hunting license anywhere in the U.S. during his probation, Tom MacKenzie with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service told the AJC. Adams was sentenced Wednesday in U.S. District Court.

“Today’s sentencing affirms our commitment to investigate violations of the federal wildlife laws intended to protect our Nation’s most imperiled species,” said Luis J. Santiago, Acting Special Agent in Charge, Southeast Region, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service Office of Law Enforcement.

Adams shot and killed the animal Nov. 16, 2008, while hunting in Troup County. There is no open season in Georgia for cougars.

The Florida panther has been endangered since 1967. Currently, there are between 100 and 160 adults, up from less than 30 in the late 1980s, according to the Fish and Wildlife Service.


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## GunnSmokeer (Aug 25, 2011)

*don't  know*

Did this guy claim he had to kill that big cat in self-defense?

Or did he just shoot it because, well, he saw it and he had a rifle handy?  

2 years probation.... does that mean it's a felony?  Does this guy now lose his gun rights for life? Or is it not a felony crime that he pled to?  The news article isn't clear on that, and reporters can't accurately report about legal proceedings anyway.

Lesson: When hunting deer, don't shoot non-game species unless you HAVE TO, or unless you're sure nobody give a flip (like when shooting armadillos).


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## birddog52 (Aug 29, 2011)

Glad to see he got what he deserved at least the feds do there job I think Ga DNr is a joke


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## ranger374 (Sep 4, 2011)

GunnSmokeer said:


> Did this guy claim he had to kill that big cat in self-defense?
> 
> Or did he just shoot it because, well, he saw it and he had a rifle handy?
> 
> ...




if i remember correctly, GON had a article about the kill.  It was originally believed to be a western cat--which would be an invasive species--therefore legal to shoot.  GON and DNR officials--if i remember correctly, both stated they were confident that it was a western cat that someone had illegally brought to GA and has escaped.  DNR was standing by their "opinions" that GA had no cougars or "panthers" adequately sustaining themselves in the wild in GA.

A DNA sample was taken from the cat to test.  when the results were back, DNR had to go --oops.  now what do we do--there is proof of cougars in GA now.

DNR then turned it over to the feds for prosecution for illegally killing an endangered species.  now i nor anyone else not directly tied in to the official investigation knows exactly what was negotiated or what went on behind closed doors.  but, you can be substantially fined and go to jail for killing endangered species.

I would hope that the DNR would have worked on the side of the hunter--since they so profoundley stated for years there were no cougars/panthers in GA.

It sucks for the guy who shot it, but i think DNR needs to step up and admit they are/were wrong in stating that GA does not have any cougars in the state.

as far as a felony, i don't know--that would suck.


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## ranger374 (Sep 4, 2011)

birddog52 said:


> Glad to see he got what he deserved at least the feds do there job I think Ga DNr is a joke



i personally don't agree with that statement.  I don't believe he should have been charged with anything.  If anyone is at fault it is the GA DNR for telling basically anyone who said they saw a panther or cougar that there aren't any in GA.  by them saying that, it would lead me and many others in the state to believe if I saw one while hunting that it was illegally brought here by someone else (western cat) and therefore an invasive species--legal to shoot--of course now we know that is not the case, and this poor fella has to pay the price for the DNR's unwillingness to admit what was right.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 4, 2011)

I don't kill it unless I'm gonna eat it or unless it's trying to kill me. This fella didn't claim either so he had to face the music.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 4, 2011)

ranger374 said:


> i personally don't agree with that statement.  I don't believe he should have been charged with anything.  If anyone is at fault it is the GA DNR for telling basically anyone who said they saw a panther or cougar that there aren't any in GA.  by them saying that, it would lead me and many others in the state to believe if I saw one while hunting that it was illegally brought here by someone else (western cat) and therefore an invasive species--legal to shoot--of course now we know that is not the case, and this poor fella has to pay the price for the DNR's unwillingness to admit what was right.



Here's some food for thought.  The natural assumption should be that if, while reading through the hunting regulations and laws, you can't kill anything unless it specifically states that you can.  For instance, the hunting regulations guide doesn't say you can't kill a gopher tortoise, does that mean it's legal to kill them?  No, you have to look on the protected species list.  Same with cougars, if you look in the actual law they are classified as a game animal with a closed season regardless of origin or whether it's a Florida panther or western cougar.

In fact, the last person that killed a cougar in Georgia was also charged.  In the early 90's several western cougars were released as part of reintroduction study and one was shot in Echols county.  The hunter was charged under the state law since it was not a Florida panther.  I guess enough time went by that people forgot it was illegal.

So don't kill anything unless you know for a fact it's legal, plain and simple.


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## drawedback (Sep 5, 2011)

I think its a bunch of bull, for years all we have heard from dnr is that florida panthers do not exist in Ga, if you see one it has to be an escaped pet. If it is an escaped pet it is an exotic and legal to take, Thes are not like other exotic species found in Ga, cougars can and have killed people. I understand it is an endangered species but the guy had no idea it was a florida panther and not just an escaped couger.


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## Jim P (Sep 5, 2011)

Ignorance of the law is no excuse


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 5, 2011)

drawedback said:


> I think its a bunch of bull, for years all we have heard from dnr is that florida panthers do not exist in Ga, if you see one it has to be an escaped pet. If it is an escaped pet it is an exotic and legal to take, Thes are not like other exotic species found in Ga, cougars can and have killed people. I understand it is an endangered species but the guy had no idea it was a florida panther and not just an escaped couger.



I would be interested in reading any articles you can link, regarding panther attacks on humans in Georgia.


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## rvick (Sep 5, 2011)

its against the law in Colo. not to process the meat from a legally taken cougar.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 6, 2011)

drawedback said:


> If it is an escaped pet it is an exotic and legal to take,



Incorrect

§ 27-3-15.  Seasons and bag limits; promulgation of rules and regulations by board; possession of more than bag limit; reporting number of deer killed 
 (a) It shall be unlawful to hunt the following game species at any time during the periods set forth below:

  Game Species                                          Closed Season         
  ------------                                          -------------         
(1) Quail                                        March 16 -- Oct. 31          
...........       
(10) Bear                                        Jan. 16 -- Sept. 7           
(11) Sea turtles and their eggs                  All year                     
*(12) Cougar (Felis concolor)                     All year*


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## germag (Sep 6, 2011)

I think he got off too easy.


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## dadsbuckshot (Sep 6, 2011)

C.Killmaster said:


> Incorrect
> 
> § 27-3-15.  Seasons and bag limits; promulgation of rules and regulations by board; possession of more than bag limit; reporting number of deer killed
> (a) It shall be unlawful to hunt the following game species at any time during the periods set forth below:
> ...



And that right there is what most everyone always wants to know/hear - IN LAW an admission that their are Cougars in Georgia (or can be at any given time) - maybe not a sustainable population, but they are/can be here - thus we have a law. Too much debate on this issue IMO....

Good Post


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## ranger374 (Sep 8, 2011)

C.Killmaster said:


> Incorrect
> 
> § 27-3-15.  Seasons and bag limits; promulgation of rules and regulations by board; possession of more than bag limit; reporting number of deer killed
> (a) It shall be unlawful to hunt the following game species at any time during the periods set forth below:
> ...



was that there in the rules before this incident occured???  just currious--mabye it was or mabye it was added after the fact??  anyone know??

good info though!!


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## germag (Sep 8, 2011)

ranger374 said:


> was that there in the rules before this incident occured???  just currious--mabye it was or mabye it was added after the fact??  anyone know??
> 
> good info though!!



That has been in the regs for years.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 9, 2011)

ranger374 said:


> was that there in the rules before this incident occured???  just currious--mabye it was or mabye it was added after the fact??  anyone know??
> 
> good info though!!



It's been in there since before 1993, that's the year they changed the genus from _Felis_ to _Puma_


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## Throwback (Sep 9, 2011)

ranger374 said:


> if i remember correctly, GON had a article about the kill.  It was originally believed to be a western cat--which would be an invasive species--therefore legal to shoot.  GON and DNR officials--if i remember correctly, both stated they were confident that it was a western cat that someone had illegally brought to GA and has escaped.  DNR was standing by their "opinions" that GA had no cougars or "panthers" adequately sustaining themselves in the wild in GA.
> 
> A DNA sample was taken from the cat to test.  when the results were back, DNR had to go --oops.  now what do we do--there is proof of cougars in GA now.
> 
> ...





I can't recall anyone from DNR ever saying "there are absolutely not cougars of any type in ga and there is not a chance of one being here". 

in fact, I know FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY they are cougars here in GA. 1000% sure. There are also timber wolves, african lions, rhinos and ligers. I even know where there are breeding populations of water buffalo and elk in GA. 






T


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## one hogman (Sep 9, 2011)

Throwback said:


> I can't recall anyone from DNR ever saying "there are absolutely not cougars of any type in ga and there is not a chance of one being here".
> 
> in fact, I know FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY they are cougars here in GA. 1000% sure. There are also timber wolves, african lions, rhinos and ligers. I even know where there are breeding populations of water buffalo and elk in GA.
> 
> ...



T, you left out BLACK PANTHERS


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## germag (Sep 9, 2011)

Throwback said:


> I can't recall anyone from DNR ever saying "there are absolutely not cougars of any type in ga and there is not a chance of one being here".
> 
> in fact, I know FOR AN ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY they are cougars here in GA. 1000% sure. There are also timber wolves, african lions, rhinos and ligers. I even know where there are breeding populations of water buffalo and elk in GA.
> 
> ...



I've never seen that either, and I don't believe they've ever said that. What they _have_ said is that there are no breeding populations of them in Georgia. I think the reason the law was included in the hunting regs was to protect the occasional Florida Panther that from time to time wanders into Georgia (they don't really understand state lines and such), because they know for sure that happens....and if they didn't protect them some nitwit would shoot them.


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## one hogman (Sep 10, 2011)

What was ridiculous in my book was that he wasn't charged by Ga, DNR and the Feds had to do a DNA test before they charged him?


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## germag (Sep 10, 2011)

one hogman said:


> What was ridiculous in my book was that he wasn't charged by Ga, DNR and the Feds had to do a DNA test before they charged him?



Why do you say that's ridiculous? Ga DNR probably didn't charge him because they wanted to defer to the Feds, since that species is Federally protected. The DNA test is to make sure what population the cougar came from. If it's an escaped pet that came from the western populations, then it may have turned out not to be a prosecutable offense. If it came from the Florida populations, then there's no doubt in anyone's mind that it's a clear violation of the Endangered Species Act and fully prosecutable.


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## olcowman (Sep 10, 2011)

germag said:


> Why do you say that's ridiculous? Ga DNR probably didn't charge him because they wanted to defer to the Feds, since that species is Federally protected. The DNA test is to make sure what population the cougar came from. If it's an escaped pet that came from the western populations, then it may have turned out not to be a prosecutable offense. If it came from the Florida populations, then there's no doubt in anyone's mind that it's a clear violation of the Endangered Species Act and fully prosecutable.



The law states "cougar"... and I am not sure a DNA test can conclude "escaped pet"? It is really sad that so many are so quick to step up and take sides with this man who broke both state and federal laws. As I recall, by his own admission, he basically was deer hunting and the cat happened to walk by and he shot it. He sure looked proud in them pictures, but I imagine that fine, the hassle of probation, and the loss of hunting privilages wiped that big smile off his face?

I know that this may not be a real popular idea with many but I would like to see the state attempt to re-stock all of our native, top-tier predators to some extent. But sadly, because of folks like this guy and his supporters, and the fiasco a few years ago with the western cougars in south GA, there are those among us that make efforts such as this impossible.


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 10, 2011)

one hogman said:


> What was ridiculous in my book was that he wasn't charged by Ga, DNR and the Feds had to do a DNA test before they charged him?




You think the Troup County probate judge would have given him two years probation, and $2,000 fine?

I'm glad the DNR deferred to the Feds, so that there could be some real enforcement of the game laws.


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## germag (Sep 10, 2011)

olcowman said:


> The law states "cougar"... and I am not sure a DNA test can conclude "escaped pet"? It is really sad that so many are so quick to step up and take sides with this man who broke both state and federal laws. As I recall, by his own admission, he basically was deer hunting and the cat happened to walk by and he shot it. He sure looked proud in them pictures, but I imagine that fine, the hassle of probation, and the loss of hunting privilages wiped that big smile off his face?
> 
> I know that this may not be a real popular idea with many but I would like to see the state attempt to re-stock all of our native, top-tier predators to some extent. But sadly, because of folks like this guy and his supporters, and the fiasco a few years ago with the western cougars in south GA, there are those among us that make efforts such as this impossible.



Well, I think that if it was from the western population it would be fairly obvious that it was an escapee.


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## olcowman (Sep 10, 2011)

germag said:


> Well, I think that if it was from the western population it would be fairly obvious that it was an escapee.



Yeah, you're probably right... but there has been recent reports of western cougars as far east as Illinois? I figure the prudent thing would be to let it walk and enjoy the experience? Unless of course it's one of them black panthers...


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## germag (Sep 10, 2011)

Yep. The smart and prudent thing would be to let it go about it's business, get photos if you can, and alert DNR to it. Shooting it is just pure stupidity.


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## C.Killmaster (Sep 10, 2011)

germag said:


> I've never seen that either, and I don't believe they've ever said that. What they _have_ said is that there are no breeding populations of them in Georgia. I think the reason the law was included in the hunting regs was to protect the occasional Florida Panther that from time to time wanders into Georgia (they don't really understand state lines and such), because they know for sure that happens....and if they didn't protect them some nitwit would shoot them.


I believe the law was put into effect when there was still a chance that eastern cougars were still in existence.  They weren't declared extinct until earlier this year.  At one point in time (early 1800's and before) Georgia had both the eastern cougar and Florida panther.


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## germag (Sep 10, 2011)

C.Killmaster said:


> I believe the law was put into effect when there was still a chance that eastern cougars were still in existence.  They weren't declared extinct until earlier this year.  At one point in time (early 1800's and before) Georgia had both the eastern cougar and Florida panther.



That could be.....I just know it's been in the regs for years.


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## germag (Sep 10, 2011)

Twenty five ought six said:


> You think the Troup County probate judge would have given him two years probation, and $2,000 fine?
> 
> I'm glad the DNR deferred to the Feds, so that there could be some real enforcement of the game laws.



Yep...the Feds are not going to bring a case unless they know they can get a conviction. It's a really a shame that the state has to defer to the Feds to get good enforcement like that, but I'm glad they did in this case.

What I'm not sure about is whether the $2k fine and 2 years probation represents a felony under Federal law...I know it would if it was State, but not sure about Federal. I hope so.....


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## huntfish (Sep 10, 2011)

germag said:


> Why do you say that's ridiculous? Ga DNR probably didn't charge him because they wanted to defer to the Feds, since that species is Federally protected. The DNA test is to make sure what population the cougar came from. If it's an escaped pet that came from the western populations, then it may have turned out not to be a prosecutable offense. If it came from the Florida populations, then there's no doubt in anyone's mind that it's a clear violation of the Endangered Species Act and fully prosecutable.



Avoiding it/defering it?    GADNR LEO have seen many a good cases go soft due to the good ole boy network.   They get as frustrated as we do seeing the fines etc.    Allowing the Feds took out the good ole boy network and has larger bight.    It's also not uncommon in GA.


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## germag (Sep 10, 2011)

huntfish said:


> Avoiding it/defering it?    GADNR LEO have seen many a good cases go soft due to the good ole boy network.   They get as frustrated as we do seeing the fines etc.    Allowing the Feds took out the good ole boy network and has larger bight.    It's also not uncommon in GA.



Yep....it's a good tactic. Some of the Judges in Georgia make you wonder when they issue $100 fines for violations and that's it. The Feds are going to get a conviction and they're not going to be soft on it. The problem is that they can only bring the Feds into it when Federal laws have been broken, such as in this case....so poachers that are breaking only state game laws essentially get a walk.


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## huntfish (Sep 11, 2011)

germag said:


> Yep....it's a good tactic. Some of the Judges in Georgia make you wonder when they issue $100 fines for violations and that's it. The Feds are going to get a conviction and they're not going to be soft on it. The problem is that they can only bring the Feds into it when Federal laws have been broken, such as in this case....so poachers that are breaking only state game laws essentially get a walk.



There's lots of Federal land out there being hunted and fished.   Any infraction can be federally cited.


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## germag (Sep 11, 2011)

huntfish said:


> There's lots of Federal land out there being hunted and fished.   Any infraction can be federally cited.



Obviously they can, but only if the infraction occurs on Federal land, or if a Federal law is broken on state or private property. The Feds do not enforce state game laws on state property or private property, unless the violation includes transporting illegally taken game or protected species across state lines.


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## Sunset (Sep 11, 2011)

GA gun rights can be restored after 5 to 10 yrs depending on crime , federal case ???????


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## germag (Sep 11, 2011)

In Georgia that's decided by the Georgia Pardons and Parole Board. For a Federal conviction, rights would have to be restored by a Federal judge.....I'm not sure how often that really happens.


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## one hogman (Sep 13, 2011)

germag said:


> Why do you say that's ridiculous? Ga DNR probably didn't charge him because they wanted to defer to the Feds, since that species is Federally protected. The DNA test is to make sure what population the cougar came from. If it's an escaped pet that came from the western populations, then it may have turned out not to be a prosecutable offense. If it came from the Florida populations, then there's no doubt in anyone's mind that it's a clear violation of the Endangered Species Act and fully prosecutable.



I say rediulous BECAUSE that man didn't know it was a FLORIDA PANTHER neither did the Feds till they did the DNA test, either way it broke Ga. law, they didn't push it, but the Almighty Feds had to step in, Cougars are a natural game animal and still hunted LEGALLY in many western states, some on here sound like animal activists' one person wrote " why would anyone want to shoot one" I would for One because I am a hunter, Many think the same thing about the deer you love to hunt. No one should be happy when the Feds stick their nose in, It should have been a State issue, Period.The Federal Govt is always overstepping their bounds on using the Endangered species act to run rough shod over common sense management, Just look at the Wolf and Grizzly bear situation in the lower 48 for two examples, I am not or never have condoned breaking game laws anywhere, anytime, just hate to hear people condoning Big Brother stepping in.They step in WAY too much.


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## germag (Sep 13, 2011)

one hogman said:


> I say rediulous BECAUSE that man didn't know it was a FLORIDA PANTHER neither did the Feds till they did the DNA test, either way it broke Ga. law, they didn't push it, but the Almighty Feds had to step in, Cougars are a natural game animal and still hunted LEGALLY in many western states, some on here sound like animal activists' one person wrote " why would anyone want to shoot one" I would for One because I am a hunter, Many think the same thing about the deer you love to hunt. No one should be happy when the Feds stick their nose in, It should have been a State issue, Period.The Federal Govt is always overstepping their bounds on using the Endangered species act to run rough shod over common sense management, Just look at the Wolf and Grizzly bear situation in the lower 48 for two examples, I am not or never have condoned breaking game laws anywhere, anytime, just hate to hear people condoning Big Brother stepping in.They step in WAY too much.



Your opinion. Mine differs. First off, real hunters don't kill everything that walks through, especially protected species. While it's true that hunting cougars is allowed in certain high population areas, that's only in those certain few areas. Georgia ain't one of them. It is stated clearly in the regs that there is no open season on Cougars, so from the perpective of the "hunter" it doesn't make any difference at all if it was a Florida Panther or a Western Cougar....any of them are illegal to shoot here and he had to know there was a better than even chance it was a Florida Panther...they wander into South Georgia fairly often. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Before you shoot something, it is your responsibility to know if it's legal or not.


 Secondly, the Feds didn't just take it upon themselves to prosecute. The State asked for their assistance, and with good reason. First, the Federal penalties are stiffer and this one deserves stiff penalties and vigorous prosecution. Second, if it wasn't for the "good old boy" network, the State might have prosecuted it themselves....but they know for sure that the judges that try these wildlife cases are notoriously soft on poachers (and this guy IS a poacher). Shooting a Florida Panther is a pretty serious crime. There are not very many left and enough of them get hit on hiways and such...we don't need idiots out in the woods killing them too. There are probably no more than 200 of them in existence. Sometimes it's a good tactical move to try to take one idiot and make an example of him for everybody else. Now nearly everyone knows that if you shoot one in Georgia, you'll get burned. That's a good thing. The State knew that if it was, in fact, a Florida Panther, they would get a lot more action against this guy if they let the Feds prosecute it under the Federal laws that were broken.


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## birddog52 (Sep 13, 2011)

yeah its shows that DNr bioliogist don,t get out in the woods or  know anything at all and that goes for some of the Rangers that are supposed to be enforcing the law


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## Throwback (Sep 13, 2011)

It's my understanding you can't tell if any panther is the florida variety or not until a DNA test is done. 

T


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## germag (Sep 13, 2011)

Throwback said:


> It's my understanding you can't tell if any panther is the florida variety or not until a DNA test is done.
> 
> T



That's correct. Therefore the law doesn't prohibit shooting them based on sub-species. It's on the species level. It's illegal to shoot any cougar in Georgia, regardless of which population it came from. If it proves out to be a Florida Panther, the penalties are stiffer under Federal Law since it's listed as Critically Endangered throughout it's range.


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## stevetarget (Sep 13, 2011)

obviously he should not have shot it since he was prosecuted for it but, if you have to run a DNA test to see if it was legal or illegal then maybe they should have given some thought to his intentions when he shot the cat. DID he knowingly shoot a endangered species because he did not care what it was or did he shoot it thinking it was legal. IF he thought it was legal and you have to do a DNA test to prove it was not then I say let him slide. 
This is why we have jury trials. A little common sense can go a long ways.


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## germag (Sep 13, 2011)

stevetarget said:


> obviously he should not have shot it since he was prosecuted for it but, if you have to run a DNA test to see if it was legal or illegal then maybe they should have given some thought to his intentions when he shot the cat. DID he knowingly shoot a endangered species because he did not care what it was or did he shoot it thinking it was legal. IF he thought it was legal and you have to do a DNA test to prove it was not then I say let him slide.
> This is why we have jury trials. A little common sense can go a long ways.



You're missing the whole point. It's NEVER legal to shoot a cougar in Georgia....at all...simple as that, unless you can provide compelling evidence that it was a case of self-defense. If it happened to be a western cougar, it's still illegal to shoot it in Georgia. It doesn't matter at all if he _thought_ it was legal. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. It is his reponsibility to KNOW whether it's legal or not. If it had been a western cat, the state could have still prosecuted under the state law, but the Feds wouldn't have. Because it turned out to be a Florida cat which is specifically and stringently protected under Federal law, a better case could be brought by the state.


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## Throwback (Sep 13, 2011)

stevetarget said:


> obviously he should not have shot it since he was prosecuted for it but, if you have to run a DNA test to see if it was legal or illegal then maybe they should have given some thought to his intentions when he shot the cat. DID he knowingly shoot a endangered species because he did not care what it was or did he shoot it thinking it was legal. IF he thought it was legal and you have to do a DNA test to prove it was not then I say let him slide.
> This is why we have jury trials. A little common sense can go a long ways.



no matter what subspecies it was, it was illegal to kill. It was just "more" illegal to kill a florida panther because it's on the endangered species list--therefore, federal charges were made.


T


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## Tennessee Buck (Sep 13, 2011)

ranger374 said:


> i personally don't agree with that statement.  I don't believe he should have been charged with anything.  If anyone is at fault it is the GA DNR for telling basically anyone who said they saw a panther or cougar that there aren't any in GA.  by them saying that, it would lead me and many others in the state to believe if I saw one while hunting that it was illegally brought here by someone else (western cat) and therefore an invasive species--legal to shoot--of course now we know that is not the case, and this poor fella has to pay the price for the DNR's unwillingness to admit what was right.



Yep your right on about that ! The Feds and the DNR are one big JOKE


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 13, 2011)

Tennessee Buck said:


> Yep your right on about that ! The Feds and the DNR are one big JOKE



Yeah, you're absolutely right.  Ol' Dave Adams is going to be sitting home for the next two years laughing about how funny they are.


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## one hogman (Sep 13, 2011)

germag said:


> Your opinion. Mine differs. First off, real hunters don't kill everything that walks through, especially protected species. While it's true that hunting cougars is allowed in certain high population areas, that's only in those certain few areas. Georgia ain't one of them. It is stated clearly in the regs that there is no open season on Cougars, so from the perpective of the "hunter" it doesn't make any difference at all if it was a Florida Panther or a Western Cougar....any of them are illegal to shoot here and he had to know there was a better than even chance it was a Florida Panther...they wander into South Georgia fairly often. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. Before you shoot something, it is your responsibility to know if it's legal or not.
> 
> 
> Secondly, the Feds didn't just take it upon themselves to prosecute. The State asked for their assistance, and with good reason. First, the Federal penalties are stiffer and this one deserves stiff penalties and vigorous prosecution. Second, if it wasn't for the "good old boy" network, the State might have prosecuted it themselves....but they know for sure that the judges that try these wildlife cases are notoriously soft on poachers (and this guy IS a poacher). Shooting a Florida Panther is a pretty serious crime. There are not very many left and enough of them get hit on hiways and such...we don't need idiots out in the woods killing them too. There are probably no more than 200 of them in existence. Sometimes it's a good tactical move to try to take one idiot and make an example of him for everybody else. Now nearly everyone knows that if you shoot one in Georgia, you'll get burned. That's a good thing. The State knew that if it was, in fact, a Florida Panther, they would get a lot more action against this guy if they let the Feds prosecute it under the Federal laws that were broken.



You obviously missed my point, I never said it was legal in GA. in fact I stated it was not,AND i never said anything about him being a" real hunter" I said I was a hunter and I would love to hunt and shoot a big cat" Legally of course", My point was if you base the prosecution of a Man on an animal he killed based on DNA, It is rediculous,Yea this ole boy broke the Law he may or may not have known it was legal to shoot what he thought was and looked like a Mountain Lion, yea he should have known the law and no one said he was not responsible, He  knew there were all kind of stories of these cats and he knew he could prove to a lot of people he wasn't lying so he shot it. I am sure he does regret it, He shot the cat in Nov of 2008 it was almost a year later that the DNA was proven, and now two and a half years later he is prosecuted.I think that IS rediculous, and If you sir think the Feds need to be more involved with anything in this country, either you are one or you don't value your privacy or freedom as much as I do.


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## germag (Sep 13, 2011)

one hogman said:


> You obviously missed my point, I never said it was legal in GA. in fact I stated it was not,AND i never said anything about him being a" real hunter" I said I was a hunter and I would love to hunt and shoot a big cat" Legally of course", My point was if you base the prosecution of a Man on an animal he killed based on DNA, It is rediculous,Yea this ole boy broke the Law he may or may not have known it was legal to shoot what he thought was and looked like a Mountain Lion, yea he should have known the law and no one said he was not responsible, He  knew there were all kind of stories of these cats and he knew he could prove to a lot of people he wasn't lying so he shot it. I am sure he does regret it, He shot the cat in Nov of 2008 it was almost a year later that the DNA was proven, and now two and a half years later he is prosecuted.I think that IS rediculous, and If you sir think the Feds need to be more involved with anything in this country, either you are one or you don't value your privacy or freedom as much as I do.



My opinion of this case has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how much I value my freedom, and that is not a part of this discussion, nor is it any of your business or your place to make that judgement.  Whether I am now, or ever have been a Federal agent is also none of your business. 


This was simply an agency that is already in place enforcing the laws that they are already chartered to enforce. It has nothing at all to do with the Feds getting _more_ involved in anything. In this case, I am glad to see the enforcement.


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## one hogman (Sep 13, 2011)

germag said:


> My opinion of this case has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how much I value my freedom, and that is not a part of this discussion, nor is it any of your business or your place to make that judgement.  Whether I am now, or ever have been a Federal agent is also none of your business.
> 
> 
> This was simply an agency that is already in place enforcing the laws that they are already chartered to enforce. It has nothing at all to do with the Feds getting _more_ involved in anything. In this case, I am glad to see the enforcement.[/QUOTE
> ...


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## germag (Sep 13, 2011)

one hogman said:


> germag said:
> 
> 
> > My opinion of this case has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how much I value my freedom, and that is not a part of this discussion, nor is it any of your business or your place to make that judgement.  Whether I am now, or ever have been a Federal agent is also none of your business.
> ...



I've already read post #37 and went back and reread it and still completely disagree with it. Sooo....we shall agree to disagree.


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## Spotlite (Sep 14, 2011)

ranger374 said:


> GON and DNR officials--if i remember correctly, both stated they were confident that it was a western cat that someone had illegally brought to GA and has escaped.  DNR was standing by their "opinions" that GA had no cougars or "panthers" adequately sustaining themselves in the wild in GA.
> 
> A DNA sample was taken from the cat to test.  when the results were back, DNR had to go --oops.  now what do we do--there is proof of cougars in GA now.


 Thats all anyone can stand on until DNA is tested. And, unless they are released, your not going to find anymore out there. 


ranger374 said:


> i personally don't agree with that statement.  I don't believe he should have been charged with anything.  If anyone is at fault it is the GA DNR for telling basically anyone who said they saw a panther or cougar that there aren't any in GA.  by them saying that, it would lead me and many others in the state to believe if I saw one while hunting that it was illegally brought here by someone else (western cat) and therefore an invasive species--legal to shoot--of course now we know that is not the case, and this poor fella has to pay the price for the DNR's unwillingness to admit what was right.


 No ones fault but the hunter. Regardless if their existance is ever admitted or not, GA DNR never gave him a season to shoot a Cougar. He should have READ the reg book.  



C.Killmaster said:


> Here's some food for thought.  The natural assumption should be that if, while reading through the hunting regulations and laws, you can't kill anything unless it specifically states that you can.  For instance, the hunting regulations guide doesn't say you can't kill a gopher tortoise, does that mean it's legal to kill them?  No, you have to look on the protected species list.  Same with cougars, if you look in the actual law they are classified as a game animal with a closed season regardless of origin or whether it's a Florida panther or western cougar.
> 
> In fact, the last person that killed a cougar in Georgia was also charged.  In the early 90's several western cougars were released as part of reintroduction study and one was shot in Echols county.  The hunter was charged under the state law since it was not a Florida panther.  I guess enough time went by that people forgot it was illegal.
> 
> So don't kill anything unless you know for a fact it's legal, plain and simple.


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