# Past, present and future sins ...



## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2014)

Are they ALL covered by the work of Christ on the cross?


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## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2014)

Another question for consideration on the op,

Can 1 Jn 1:9  be used as support for "when" a person (post-salvation) is forgiven?

Hint:  Some of you greek scholars ought to chime in 

I'll prolly see this sometime after the weekend...

Blessings and grace,
Walt


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 29, 2014)

I voted all sins past, present, and future. It happens in the instance one accepts Jesus which is called repenting. This takes faith. You could also call it believing in Jesus or confessing your sins. 
It's kinda like when an alcoholic confesses or repents and suddenly realizes he can't do it along and needs help or saving.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 30, 2014)

I do believe all our sins are forgiven, then, now and future. I do ask God on a daily basis to forgive me for my trespasses because I am always doing something I shouldn't do, by faith I believe that He will forgive me....whether we need to do that or not, that is my personal conviction to let Him know that I am aware that I have sinned, that is in my human nature, no matter how hard I try, I still fail.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 4, 2014)

After reading the introduction in 1John, I believe he is speaking to both the saved and unsaved, but mostly to the unsaved, that they must have faith to walk in the light.  They must realize they were born into sin, and only through Christ can that sin be washed.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 7, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> After reading the introduction in 1John, I believe he is speaking to both the saved and unsaved, but mostly to the unsaved, that they must have faith to walk in the light.  They must realize they were born into sin, and only through Christ can that sin be washed.



Oh really?  Whatever works for you.
.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 7, 2014)

In 1st John, which people are being continually forgiven of their sins?

Answer:  Those who are walking in the light of Christ.
               Those who are living for Christ.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; 7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 7, 2014)

All sins that are forgiven, without exception, are forgiven in Christ.

The question is:  Who decides which people the above truth is being applied to?  Me, you, or God?

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Oh really?  Whatever works for you.
> .



Weak argument huh? How about this, the letter is written to the brethren and it's focus is on recognizing the unrighteous among them?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 8, 2014)

Or, the focus is for every individual to see within themselves.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 8, 2014)

Ok, a detour, but allow me to come back to 1 Jn 1:9 ...
<SUP class=versenum>*9 *</SUP>If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

In light of the entire word of God, can that text be used as "proof" of "*when*" a believer is forgiven in a *post-redemption confession*?, or, does forgiveness take place - _only_ upon confession? To clarify, please exclude that one moment of time when we cried "help", and asked for Christ/His forgiveness at the time of salvation.


Here's another help with the 1Jn1:9 verse as far as the greek:
Yes, the word "confess" is in the present tense,
but the words forgive and clease are in the subjunctive mood...  meaning, they do not have a direct "time stamp", or can be used in the present tense.  

What does that mean?

Well, to add some help to us as we come to confess our shortcomings, that clearly God calls all the ones of faith (both old testament believers and new testament saints) to the very place where sin was dealt with - the cross ... in one offering, for all time.  Could it be we really don't believe ALL our sins were removed at the cross, when we make a present confession and include asking for forgiveness?? 

In Eph 4:32 we read the words God_has_ forgiven, in Col 2:13 "He made you alive together with Him, _having_ forgiven us all our transgressions", and Hebrews 10:12 "but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins _for all time"_ show us that the cross was a _past action_, a _completed action_, and that all of our sins were put there,
even those we may "miss" dealing with in the present!

(disclaimer - unconfessed sin will choke the communication "pipe" so to speak, but not rob us of the forgiveness provided from the cross in ~ circa 30ad)

The great thing about the greek is that it is very specific where it needs to be, 
It assists us in our understanding of truth,
If we're not careful, we may be led to believe that God "must do" a present "forgiveness" work, something that cannot be done for a believer in Christ, because Christ would have to go on a cross "again" in the present; and then the "one" sacrifice would become "many" - which is impossible!

We might say then of 1 Jn1:9:
If we confess our sins, He is faithful; having forgiven us all our sins, and has cleansed us from all unrighteousness

Glory to God for His incredible gift!


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## hawglips (Sep 8, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I do believe all our sins are forgiven, then, now and future.



I believe Christ has atoned for all our sins, then, now and future.  But I also believe that not all professed believers will find eternal life, and many will be surprised to find themselves shut out and with the goats.

For clarity, perhaps the focus should be on what Christ said about it.

Matt. 7:21
Matt. 25: 1-12
Matt. 25: 31-46
Mark 1: 14-15
Mark 4: 1-20
Luke 6: 46-48
Luke 18: 17-22
Luke 12: 31-46


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## Ronnie T (Sep 8, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Ok, a detour, but allow me to come back to 1 Jn 1:9 ...
> <SUP class=versenum>*9 *</SUP>If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
> 
> In light of the entire word of God, can that text be used as "proof" of "*when*" a believer is forgiven in a *post-redemption confession*?, or, does forgiveness take place - _only_ upon confession? To clarify, please exclude that one moment of time when we cried "help", and asked for Christ/His forgiveness at the time of salvation.
> ...



You "_might_" say that...... But that's not what John said.

Please include these verses(that which is on John's mind) in your discussion:

1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.

3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 9, 2014)

1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in Him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


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## tell sackett (Sep 9, 2014)

once.


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## NoOne (Sep 9, 2014)

The Blood of Jesus Christ Cleanseth us from all sin. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. God is a Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth.

To be born of the Spirit is to believe God's Word. God who cannot lie. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. When those that are dead in trespasses and sins hear the Word of God and believe in the Heart, those that are dead in trespasses and sins are made alive "spiritual birth" by God's Word. The gossip "good news" is that anyone can be saved by Faith in Christ. 

God made his sinless blameless perfect Son to be sin for us who knew no sin that we might be made the righteousness of God through him.

John the Baptist said when he saw Jesus..Behold the lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

The true lamb died once for all sin. We by faith are crucified with him and he paid the full price for our sins

The second Adam our Lord became a quickening Spirit and by him we have the spiritual birth. 

He was buried and we were buried with him by faith. The Apostle Paul stated that we are dead and our life is hid with Christ.

He was raised from the dead for our justification and is seated at the right hand of God, our High Priest, our mediator, our intercessor. The Apostle Paul states that we are already seated with Christ in Heavenly places and God now sees us in his Son, without spot or blemish. We are one with Christ, complete in him, justified from all things and now waiting on his return to be united with him forever more...Amen


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in Him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar


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## hobbs27 (Sep 9, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar



Their lies will be regretful one day. I don't know nor have the ability to discern from those telling the truth and those lying, all I can do is ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me , my own shortcomings. Truth is none of us are worthy of His grace, and if His works are revealed through us , that's marvelous.

 If we have to think ( what would Jesus do), and we do it so others may observe, then we are not genuine in our Christianity. If we belong to Him it is done through us.

 I don't necessarily disagree with the point ( I assume) you are making. I believe those born of God do great works, but I also believe there's imposters that prefer to do works in hope of gaining favor from man, and they have no faith.

 God Bless you Ronnie, glad to see you participating on the forum still as you enjoy retirement.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 9, 2014)

Well, I didn't post this for the "on the fence" type "christians", however it seems we always head down that road.  

For those belonging to Christ, it's good for the heart to be strengthened in grace ...

Blessings, ya'll


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## gordon 2 (Sep 9, 2014)

hawglips said:


> I believe Christ has atoned for all our sins, then, now and future.  But I also believe that not all professed believers will find eternal life, and many will be surprised to find themselves shut out and with the goats.
> 
> For clarity, perhaps the focus should be on what Christ said about it.
> 
> ...



Thank you for these. I read every one. If ever you can share more on our kingdom, I would appreciate it.  Thanks again.


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## Kawaliga (Sep 9, 2014)

*Past, present and future sins*



Artfuldodger said:


> I voted all sins past, present, and future. It happens in the instance one accepts Jesus which is called repenting. This takes faith. You could also call it believing in Jesus or confessing your sins.
> It's kinda like when an alcoholic confesses or repents and suddenly realizes he can't do it along and needs help or saving.



Jesus told the adulterous woman at the well, go and sin no more. Isn't repentance having a change of heart and turning to a new direction, doing your best to stop the sinful act?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 9, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Their lies will be regretful one day. I don't know nor have the ability to discern from those telling the truth and those lying, all I can do is ask the Holy Spirit to reveal to me , my own shortcomings. Truth is none of us are worthy of His grace, and if His works are revealed through us , that's marvelous.
> 
> If we have to think ( what would Jesus do), and we do it so others may observe, then we are not genuine in our Christianity. If we belong to Him it is done through us.
> 
> ...



And God bless you also Bro Hobbs.  It's always great to stop in from time to time to help get the cobwebs cleared out..... to have to think and ponder the things I use to think were "fact", but now....... "what's a fact"?

God's blessings to you and your family.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 9, 2014)

Kawaliga said:


> Jesus told the adulterous woman at the well, go and sin no more. Isn't repentance having a change of heart and turning to a new direction, doing your best to stop the sinful act?



I used to believe it was the actual turning from sin but now believe it is the actual changing of the heart/mind that one can't quit sinning and thus why we need saving us in the first place. When one finally comes to the conclusion, perhaps shown by God, that he can't quit sinning. He finally realizes he needs Jesus. This is the repentance or change.

Tell me this, if repentance is to stop sinning, how is it working out for you? If you can repent by your definition, why did you need Jesus to die for your sins? Why didn't you just repent by your definition and be saved?

Read some of Paul's bait & switch teachings. He would list this long list of sins not inheriting the Kingdom and then he would say something like "as such were some of you but you were washed" or after another long list of sins he did the switch when he said “Therefore you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, are doing the very same things. 

The very same things. None are righteous. We must be "washed." It's the only way. Understanding this "way" is repentance.


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## Kawaliga (Sep 9, 2014)

*present past and future sins*



Artfuldodger said:


> I used to believe it was the actual turning from sin but now believe it is the actual changing of the heart/mind that one can't quit sinning and thus why we need saving us in the first place. When one finally comes to the conclusion, perhaps shown by God, that he can't quit sinning. He finally realizes he needs Jesus. This is the repentance or change.
> 
> Tell me this, if repentance is to stop sinning, how is it working out for you? If you can repent by your definition, why did you need Jesus to die for your sins? Why didn't you just repent by your definition and be saved?
> 
> ...



I was just asking the question, not setting myself up as morally superior. It hasn't worked out very well for me, actually. I sin every day, and occasionally fall back into my old habits at times. I'm too busy running my own race to judge anyone else. I ask for forgiveness every day.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2014)

Kawaliga said:


> I was just asking the question, not setting myself up as morally superior. It hasn't worked out very well for me, actually. I sin every day, and occasionally fall back into my old habits at times. I'm too busy running my own race to judge anyone else. I ask for forgiveness every day.



Understandable, and I didn't see you as doing that with your question.


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## hawglips (Sep 11, 2014)

> Originally Posted by Kawaliga:
> Jesus told the adulterous woman at the well, go and sin no more. Isn't repentance having a change of heart and turning to a new direction, doing your best to stop the sinful act?





Artfuldodger said:


> I used to believe it was the actual turning from sin but now believe it is the actual changing of the heart/mind that one can't quit sinning and thus why we need saving us in the first place.



How do you read Matt. 7:21?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2014)

hawglips said:


> How do you read Matt. 7:21?



I read this  as evildoers who never repented. Jesus knew and knows who repents and converts. His will is that we do this. He knows our motives and hearts. 
The people who don't truly repent and convert haven't done the will of the Father.

Matt 7:22-23
Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?
23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!

God knew they were acting religious for the wrong reasons and it wasn't for the will of the Father.

John 6:40 tells us one thing that is God's will:
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."


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## furtaker (Sep 11, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> 1John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in Him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



This verse is talking about the new nature of the believer.  Every born again person has 2 natures: the old fleshly nature, and the new nature he received when he believed in Christ.
The old man still sins and will always sin!  The new man cannot sin even once, because he is born of God.  God cannot sin, so neither can the new man born of Him.
I honestly want to puke when I hear some preacher say that this verse means that a Christian cannot "practice" sin.   What the heck is that supposed to mean?  The word practice is not even in the verse; neither is the concept.  The Greek word used means "to make or do."  That includes one single act!

The flesh can sin repeatedly.  The new nature cannot sin even once.

Sin has consequences in the life of the believer.  The law of sowing and reaping is still in effect, and God's discipline is a real thing.
However, we need to face the reality just like the New Testament writers did instead of trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

Just a casual reading of Paul's letters shows that believers sin and sometimes sin a lot!  The whole New Testament is full of rebukes to BELIEVERS for not living right!

We need to remember to walk in the Spirit so we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

A person is saved into eternal life when he believes in Jesus Christ alone...that He paid for his sins and guarantees him eternal life.  Regardless of what that person does or does not do after he believes, he is born again.  The good news is that it is free...this is what distinguishes the true gospel from all its counterfeits.

God bless!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2014)

And such were some of you: but you are washed.


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## BAR308 (Sep 14, 2014)

If ALL future sins are forgiven... Why did God kill Ananais and Saphira for lying? Why did Jesus say in Rev that He was going to kill her (church) and her children for not repenting? Heb 10:26 is clear... there is NO more sacrifice (what Jesus did on the cross) if we sin wilfully... pretty clear to me.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 14, 2014)

BAR308 said:


> If ALL future sins are forgiven... Why did God kill Ananais and Saphira for lying? Why did Jesus say in Rev that He was going to kill her (church) and her children for not repenting? Heb 10:26 is clear... there is NO more sacrifice (what Jesus did on the cross) if we sin wilfully... pretty clear to me.



Ananais and Saphira died for lack of faith IMO, they put the spirit to test. Many folks could be doing that very thing today by practicing Christianity, and not believing.

Jesus referenced Jezebel in Revelation as being seductive and immoral, a false prophetess, and unrepentive. Obviously a non-Christian but claiming to be and teaching a false doctrine. The message to the church there was to not allow her to continue teaching, and to hold on to true Christian doctrine. His threat was to kill her and those that followed her doctrine when he was about to come in judgement at the end---of the old covenant and jerusalem.

Hebrews 10:26
 (For if we sin willfully) willfully being the key word to me. Christians cannot sin willfully for we know it is wrong and will carry the burden of treating Christs blood as unclean.

 This is the way I understand these verses which does not contradict any of the other verses throughout the bible that explains clearly that Christ blood washes all sin. 
 If you see obvious error I would appreciate it being pointed out. Thanks.


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## NoOne (Sep 14, 2014)

Ananais and Saphira died under the Kingdom of Heaven gospel program that was given to the 12 Apostles to deliver to the House of Israel to repent that the time of refreshing may come from the return of the Lord to rule Israel as king to fulfill the prophetic promises made to David. The Apostle Peter had the keys to bind or loose and so they were cast out.

The ones that are referred to in Revelations is the false church, the false bride, the one left behind to face the judgment of God during the tribulation, also referred to as the time of Jacobs trouble.

That which is spoken of in Hebrews is written to the Hebrews "Jews" that were still trying to carry on with the temple offerings which ended with Christ as the true lamb of God that took away the sin of the world. The old passed away and is no longer in affect. We are now in the dispensation of Grace that was give to us from the Lord, the revelation of the mystery that was revealed through the Apostle Paul, the Apostle to the gentiles.

To understand Gods word, it must be rightly divided according to II Timothy 2:15.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 15, 2014)

Skeester said:


> Ananais and Saphira died under the Kingdom of Heaven gospel program that was given to the 12 Apostles to deliver to the House of Israel to repent that the time of refreshing may come from the return of the Lord to rule Israel as king to fulfill the prophetic promises made to David. The Apostle Peter had the keys to bind or loose and so they were cast out.
> 
> The ones that are referred to in Revelations is the false church, the false bride, the one left behind to face the judgment of God during the tribulation, also referred to as the time of Jacobs trouble.
> 
> ...



But remember this:  "Just because someone quotes the above scripture does not mean they are presently 'rightly handling the Word of God!"

Where in the world, or in the Bible, did you come across this teaching: (some overeducated theologian?)

............  "The ones that are referred to in Revelations is the false church, the false bride, the one left behind to face the judgment of God during the tribulation, also referred to as the time of Jacobs trouble.


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## hawglips (Sep 16, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I read this  as evildoers who never repented. Jesus knew and knows who repents and converts. His will is that we do this. He knows our motives and hearts.
> The people who don't truly repent and convert haven't done the will of the Father.



So, doing the will of the Father includes ONLY converting?  What about all the other stuff Jesus said was necessary for eternal life?


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## hawglips (Sep 16, 2014)

> Originally Posted by hawglips:
> How do you read Matt. 7:21?





Artfuldodger said:


> I read this  as evildoers who never repented.



Do you think repenting is a one time and you're done thing?


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## gemcgrew (Sep 16, 2014)

hawglips said:


> So, doing the will of the Father includes ONLY converting?  What about all the other stuff Jesus said was necessary for eternal life?


He provides it. He died to obtain salvation and He lives to apply it.

"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life." (Romans 5:10)


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 16, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Do you think repenting is a one time and you're done thing?



Repenting, yes.
Done receiving my salvation yes.
Living a holy life and doing the will of God, no.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 16, 2014)

hawglips said:


> So, doing the will of the Father includes ONLY converting?  What about all the other stuff Jesus said was necessary for eternal life?



What does doing the "will of the Father" actually mean?

How do you view what sins Jesus died for? What stipulations do you believe apply to our salvation? How holy do I need to be to have assurance?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 16, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> How holy do I need to be to have assurance?




I've wondered this too. If a person can do something to disqualify their salvation, what must they have done to qualify it?


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## hawglips (Sep 16, 2014)

> Do you think repenting is a one time and you're done thing?





Artfuldodger said:


> Repenting, yes.
> Done receiving my salvation yes.
> Living a holy life and doing the will of God, no.



Seems to me that there is a lot of repenting involved in trying to live a holy life and doing the will of God.


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## hawglips (Sep 16, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What does doing the "will of the Father" actually mean?
> 
> How do you view what sins Jesus died for? What stipulations do you believe apply to our salvation? How holy do I need to be to have assurance?



Jesus died for all my sins, past present and future.   His atonement is infinite.  And if I don't do the will of the Father (entering in at the strait gate and continuing on the narrow way which few find and travel on; obeying His commandments; feeding his sheep; loving my enemies; etc) I risk showing him by my works that I actually don't have much faith in His son, and that I don't actually love Him very much; and thereby might be one of those that say "Lord, Lord...."

I think the question is not how holy we need to be, but how humble we need to be and how much love for God we need to have.    And if we claim salvation due to a prayer we said once while we currently have no intention of trying to do the will of the Father, then I think we risk ending up with the goats if we don't repent.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2014)

I am glad I read this entire thread before I posted again. I was beginning to think some of you were saying you were sinless and/or lived perfectly ever day in God's will without ever doing something wrong, even the least of things.

I never believed the Lord's Prayer was a salvation prayer, I always thought it was to remind us of how we are to continue praying for strength/forgiveness/and how to treat folks who have 'hurt' us.

I was also gonna ask, once you were saved how did you receive and apply the fruit of the spirit instantly? I'm forever tending and working in my 'garden' and wondering if I am just a goat, and I missed the boat altogether and didn't even know it.


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## NoOne (Sep 16, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> But remember this:  "Just because someone quotes the above scripture does not mean they are presently 'rightly handling the Word of God!"
> 
> Where in the world, or in the Bible, did you come across this teaching: (some overeducated theologian?)
> 
> ............  "The ones that are referred to in Revelations is the false church, the false bride, the one left behind to face the judgment of God during the tribulation, also referred to as the time of Jacobs trouble.



First of all who is Revelations written to? It's not written to "or about" the Body of Christ, the one true Church that is here on this earth right now during the dispensation of the Grace of God. The body of Christ was a mystery that was hidden and revealed by Jesus Christ by revelation to the Apostle Paul. The Revelation given by John is a prophecy so stated in Rev 1:3. It is written to the future kingdom saints after the body of Christ, those saved by the Grace of God are removed from this earth for the Body of Christ is not subject to the wrath of God: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15.

Who are the Kingdom saints? The Kingdom of heaven of here on earth was promised to Israel. The Kingdom gospel that was given to the 12 Apostles was rejected by Israel in the book of Acts and Israel was set aside in unbelief. He came unto his own and his own received him not. John 1:11, Acts 28:28, Romans 9, 10, 11

After the Body of Christ is taken out of this world, God will again take up his promises to the nation of Israel. This will be accomplished at the end of the tribulation period when He saves Israel and takes up his throne as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.

The Apostle John is writing to the circumcision or jews. There was an agreement at the mid Acts counsel that the Apostle Paul was to go to the Gentiles and the 12 to the circumcision. This is stated also in Galatians 2:9

So the churches mentioned in the first 3 chapters of Revelations deal with future kingdom churches going through the tribulation. During this time, the false church that was left behind at the rapture will still be here. So Jezebel is part of the false church or otherwise known as Babylon and will be destroyed by the Lord at his return.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 16, 2014)

Skeester said:


> First of all who is Revelations written to? It's not written to "or about" the Body of Christ, the one true Church that is here on this earth right now during the dispensation of the Grace of God. The body of Christ was a mystery that was hidden and revealed by Jesus Christ by revelation to the Apostle Paul. The Revelation given by John is a prophecy so stated in Rev 1:3. It is written to the future kingdom saints after the body of Christ, those saved by the Grace of God are removed from this earth for the Body of Christ is not subject to the wrath of God: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Corinthians 15.
> 
> Who are the Kingdom saints? The Kingdom of heaven of here on earth was promised to Israel. The Kingdom gospel that was given to the 12 Apostles was rejected by Israel in the book of Acts and Israel was set aside in unbelief. He came unto his own and his own received him not. John 1:11, Acts 28:28, Romans 9, 10, 11
> 
> ...



Hanging curveball.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 16, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Seems to me that there is a lot of repenting involved in trying to live a holy life and doing the will of God.



Yes there would be but that is a different type or application for repenting than the repentance for salvation.
When I said I have stopped repenting, I meant for Salvation purposes. I stopped believing my salvation has prerequisites into a belief that Jesus died for my sins because I will never be holy enough. 
The other application of repenting is as you state is to reverse one's life to live holy.

This says it better than I can convey:

 Two Types Of Repentance
Matthew 9:13, "But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

2 Corinthians 7:9, "Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing."

Here we see two examples of different types of repentance. Actually, to be more precise, what we see are two different applications for repentance. The first type is commonly called, "repentance unto salvation." This is the repentance where a lost person changes his mind toward Christ for salvation. Repentance is simply a change of mind. If one is relying on religion, in any form for eternal security, they need to repent (change their minds) away from religion (works) towards Christ alone for salvation.

The word repentance in these two verses come from the same Greek root word, metanoeo, which is defined as, "to think differently." The actual word used in these two verses is, metanola, which is defined as, "reversal." Nothing indicates that the lost must stop sinning to gain salvation. Those who do so are relying on works to get them into Heaven.

http://churchpros.blogspot.com/2012/04/two-types-of-repentance.html


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 16, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What does doing the "will of the Father" actually mean?



I'm still trying to grasp the concept of what the "will of the Father" is. I ran across this site which conveys us doing the will of the Father with how Jesus did the "will of his Father and our Father." Jesus always stated he was doing the will of his Father. He stressed doing the will of his Father. 
Maybe our concept of what we believe is the will of the Father is different from what Jesus knew was the will of the Father.

From Edgar Jones:
To him, the will of the Father signified, exclusively, one specific thing, and it was that one thing that he had come to the earth to perform. I submit the following utterances for our consideration:
1. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will, but the will of him who sent me. (John 6:38)

2. Pray then like this: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. (Matthew 6:9,10).

3. Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matthew 7:21).

4. Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine be done. (Luke 22;42).

5. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. (John 6:40).

6. He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. (John 12:25).

7. Tetelestai! (It is finished, John 19:30)

We will not err if we think of Jesus as one who had come down from heaven for the purpose of doing the will of the Father as stated in (1). His total earthly experience was focused on this one commission. It would seem to follow that the will of the Father had never yet been done on earth, for then Jesus would not have had to come down from heaven to do it. Neither will we err if we think of the will of the Father as being a specific action having no relevance to what men usually mean in speaking of the will of God.

Then it follows that in the Lord's Prayer (2) Jesus was urging his disciples to pray for him, that he might prevail against all temptations to fulfill his commission by doing the will of the Father on earth as it is in heaven. It also follows that the coming of the Kingdom only awaited the doing of the will of the Father. We see the logic in this when we pause to consider that any kingdom is defined as the realm where the will of the king is done. The kingdom had not come on earth before Jesus because the will of the Father had not yet been done on earth.

Then it likewise follows that no one enters the kingdom of the Father without performing this same action identified in the mind of Jesus as the will of the Father (3). The kingdom of the Father is then defined as the realm where the will of the Father is done. Even Jesus could not enter apart from doing this specific will of the Father.

In dark Gethsemane he yet had not performed what he came to the earth to do: the will of the Father. He prayed to be relieved of the cup of bitter suffering that it entailed (4). It was there that he also urged the sleepy disciples to continue praying The Lord's Prayer, that the will of the Father be done and that his kingdom might come and that they enter not into temptation. Then he left the Garden with a victory over evil: Not my will, but thine be done! (see #1 again).

Jesus defined the will of the Father in (5), and further elaborated it in (6). The will of the Father is: that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life. But this is equated with hating one's life in this world. Therefore the will of the Father as defined by Jesus consists of hating one's life in this world, and this is what he came to the earth from heaven to do.

http://www.voiceofjesus.org/thewill.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 16, 2014)

The will of God is that we all live in perfect obedience to him. The very first man God created failed and so has every man except Jesus. Though we should strive to live in perfect obedience to God we can't and thus need a savior. That savior was sent from God in the form of Jesus. 
If man could have lived in perfect obedience to God, Jesus would not have been needed.
I believe Jesus died for this reason and it frees me from having to guess or wonder exactly how righteous  I must be to gain salvation.
If there are stipulations then what was the reason for Jesus? What sins did he die for past, present, or future? 
What was the reason for Jesus or why did he come if not because I couldn't do it alone? What sins or commands that I can't keep did Jesus die for?


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## mtnwoman (Sep 16, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The will of God is that we all live in perfect obedience to him. The very first man God created failed and so has every man except Jesus. Though we should strive to live in perfect obedience to God we can't and thus need a savior. That savior was sent from God in the form of Jesus.
> If man could have lived in perfect obedience to God, Jesus would not have been needed.
> I believe Jesus died for this reason and it frees me from having to guess or wonder exactly how righteous  I must be to gain salvation.
> If there are stipulations then what was the reason for Jesus? What sins did he die for past, present, or future?
> What was the reason for Jesus or why did he come if not because I couldn't do it alone? What sins or commands that I can't keep did Jesus die for?



I totally agree!!! If I was 'made' perfect at redemption/salvation then what would I need Jesus for now?  I am perfect? No I still need Jesus to get me closer and closer to glorification, which will only occur when I shed my body and soul (personality) and become one spirit with Him and that won't be until my 'time' is come...until then I won't be perfect.....I long for that time.


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## NoOne (Sep 17, 2014)

All that I do know is this. That God's Word showed me that I was a sinner in need of a savior. I was lost and without hope, dead in trespasses and sins, a slave to it.

Then one day I heard the gospel "a dead man hears by the power of God", that Christ died in my place and took all the wrath of God I deserved upon himself at Calvary. He paid the full price for me and took the condemnation/judgment for my sin and the sins of everyone. 

God spared not his own son for me. He loves me and keeps me by his grace. He did it all and for everyone who believes in him. It's all about faith, faith in his blood which cleanses us from ALL sin.

I believe this. Abraham also believed God and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

His Word says we are accepted in the beloved. That we are complete in him, hid in him, his righteousness imputed to us by faith to all that believe.

You either believe or you don't believe, that's the way faith works.

The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from All sin.

The true Lamb of God took away the sin of the world at Calvary. 

He was made All our sin by God on the cross, died and paid the full price for All our sins, was buried and on the third day raised from the dead without ours sins.

He now resides in Heaven at the right hand of the Father and is our mediator and intercessor. He has justified us freely by his Grace. Once a person believes this he is saved and sealed by the Spirit. We become Gods workmanship, he did everything that was needed and does everything that is needed afterward.

Faith comes by hearing and the only way those that are dead in trespasses and sins can hear is by God's Word. Believe God's Word, God who cannot lie and by faith you will live.

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 17, 2014)

Ephesians 2:8... What part of "and that not of yourselves" is so difficult to understand?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The will of God is that we all live in perfect obedience to him. The very first man God created failed and so has every man except Jesus. Though we should strive to live in perfect obedience to God we can't and thus need a savior. That savior was sent from God in the form of Jesus.
> If man could have lived in perfect obedience to God, Jesus would not have been needed.
> I believe Jesus died for this reason and it frees me from having to guess or wonder exactly how righteous  I must be to gain salvation.
> If there are stipulations then what was the reason for Jesus? What sins did he die for past, present, or future?
> What was the reason for Jesus or why did he come if not because I couldn't do it alone? What sins or commands that I can't keep did Jesus die for?


------------------------------------------------------------------
I like the way you put things here art.


The will of God is that we all live in perfect obedience to him. ( Perfect obedience are not words I think belong in a loving relationship.)

 The very first man God created failed and so has every man except Jesus. (To be born in the world of the knowledge of God and Evil, does not mean man is a failure.)

 Though we should strive to live in perfect obedience to God we can't and thus need a savior. That savior was sent from God in the form of Jesus. ( To strive for perfect obedience is impossible in a loving relationship because it has nothing to do with love.)


If man could have lived in perfect obedience to God, Jesus would not have been needed. ( Jesus is a redeemer via God's loving grace. He provides that we are drawn out of the world. Our perfection is our born again spirit which permits a one on one relationship with the Holy Spirit--if we chose. Before the knowledge of good and evil, when all trusting was with man and God, perfection and obedience was not an issue.) 


I believe Jesus died for this reason and it frees me from having to guess or wonder exactly how righteous  I must be to gain salvation. (I don't think your view is 100% correct as trust in Jesus would be 100% correct otherwise Jesus would not have said what is attributed to him in Matthew 7:21-24. You don't have to guess in a loving relationship, you love or you don't have a communion at all.)


If there are stipulations then what was the reason for Jesus? ( The Cross. Remember the cross in your life. This old world is still this old world, even if you are saved, redeemed, blessed, born again etc.)

 What sins did he die for past, present, or future? ( He died to redeem us from the world of sin, a world past, present and future.) 


What was the reason for Jesus or why did he come if not because I couldn't do it alone? ( The alone part is "alone without a relationship with our creator and alone in the land of good and evil.)
  What sins or commands that I can't keep did Jesus die for? (He died for the sins of the world. Restored your spirit ( born again) so that the Holy Spirit's  might become a plain and loving teacher to you and not of the cowering spirit dreamed up for you by the world which views God as  demanding works in perfect obedience... )[/QUOTE]

Ask yourself if you are immune from sin, past, present and future and if you agree that we are reminded in scripture to continuously lean on Christ and for a good reason Paul cautions that we should be wise to false doctrine (s) or if there was no consequence to the redeemed for a fall away from a relationship with Jesus or God and falling again for the doctrines of the world, Jesus and Paul would not have made an issue of it. 

The will of God is perfect.  When we are in communion with His will, we are in His perfection even though our's ( our will) cannot be as long as we are still running our race and carrying our cross " in this here old world".  Even we! being the redeemed!  We are told a day will come when this old world will meet with its end. It just has not happened yet.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 17, 2014)

Revelation 4:11
“You are worthy, our Lord and Our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you have created all things, and by your pleasure they exist and were created.” 

Galatians 3:10
But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law."

Isaiah 64:6
We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

James 2:10
For the person who keeps all of the laws except one is as guilty as a person who has broken all of God's laws.

Luke 17:10
“So also you, whenever you have done all those things that were commanded you, you should say, 'We are unprofitable servants, because we have done that which we were obligated to do.' “

Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is not from works, or else grace is not grace. But if it is by works, it is not from grace, or else work is not work.

John 15:5
"I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 17, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Revelation 4:11
> “You are worthy, our Lord and Our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you have created all things, and by your pleasure they exist and were created.”
> 
> Galatians 3:10
> ...




 For once! I agree with everything you posted. Every tittle of it....   Your mojo must be  workin on me bro.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 17, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> For once! I agree with everything you posted. Every tittle of it....   Your mojo must be  workin on me bro.



It was probably because I didn't say anything.


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## BT Charlie (Sep 18, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It was probably because I didn't say anything.



That humor made the read worth it, Art and Gordon.

If being sinless now is required for me to go to heaven when I die, all I can say is that at least my eternal dam-ation for my present and future sin will glorify God and His Word.  

I'm not looking for a loophole... I am an unprofitable servant, certainly, trying to fulfill a duty, gratefully. Alas, I sin in innumerable ways.  If I try to tell myself I'm through with it, I am shown the truth is not in me.  The wheel is turning boys, but the hamster is dead.

Christ's blood for my past, present and future "me." I was and remain completely unworthy of such mercy, grace and love ... before and after repentance, calling upon the name of the Lord and baptism.

As Ronnie teaches her, I am as the old cook on the Edmund Fitzgerald.  Fellas, it's been good to know ya and I'm glad you're going to heaven.

I suspect we'll all see that none of us got it all 100 percent correct all the time.  I certainly hope Ronnie is outside the x ring to the extent he is convinced that present sin is proof one is not in Christ.

My hope remains fixed on Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.  Peace.


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## M80 (Sep 18, 2014)

brentus said:


> This verse is talking about the new nature of the believer.  Every born again person has 2 natures: the old fleshly nature, and the new nature he received when he believed in Christ.
> The old man still sins and will always sin!  The new man cannot sin even once, because he is born of God.  God cannot sin, so neither can the new man born of Him.
> I honestly want to puke when I hear some preacher say that this verse means that a Christian cannot "practice" sin.   What the heck is that supposed to mean?  The word practice is not even in the verse; neither is the concept.  The Greek word used means "to make or do."  That includes one single act!
> 
> ...



Amen and amen, I bet some of y'all thought I done changed my avatar name and posted this.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 18, 2014)

John 6:28-29
28Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."


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## hawglips (Sep 18, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I never believed the Lord's Prayer was a salvation prayer, I always thought it was to remind us of how we are to continue praying for strength/forgiveness/and how to treat folks who have 'hurt' us.



I was referring to the prayer many preach is all that is required to be saved.

Today while reading in John 15, I felt this was pertinent to the discussion:

I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 19, 2014)

hawglips said:


> I was referring to the prayer many preach is all that is required to be saved.
> 
> Today while reading in John 15, I felt this was pertinent to the discussion:
> 
> ...



Reading farther along in John 15 we read this in verse 16:
John 15:16
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you.


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## hawglips (Sep 19, 2014)

Christ was addressing his disciples in that verse (he had called the 12 to come follow him), not speaking in general terms as he did in verse 5 and 6 when he stated "he that abideth" and "if a man"....  

And he mentions how (in verse 27) that they (disciples) have been with him from the beginning of his ministry so they should bear witness of him.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 19, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Christ was addressing his disciples in that verse (he had called the 12 to come follow him), not speaking in general terms as he did in verse 5 and 6 when he stated "he that abideth" and "if a man"....
> 
> And he mentions how (in verse 27) that they (disciples) have been with him from the beginning of his ministry so they should bear witness of him.



And perhaps all of this was just pertaining to Jews. What about the Great Commission, was it also just for the 12?
If God can choose the 12 and Paul, why not everyone?


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## Israel (Sep 20, 2014)

There's a something a man may see afar off, and being drawn near by its beacon, begin to marvel. Trembling, he may wonder at its truth, of how it may be so, and yet, it is. Perhaps we all have burning bushes, so peculiar in our discovery, even peripheral to what seems our path that we too, must "turn aside and see this great sight".

And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. "If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."

Matthew 16:19
I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

It would appear the Lord has much for us in the "handling" of this good news.
The gaining may not come as much in our wisdom, but in the foolish extravagance of God's grace.
How much, a man may ask, can I forgive?
For that he may be pressed to discover how much he has been forgiven. And in that pressing learn something of which he thought was worthy of every striving and labor.
He who is forgiven little, loves little.
He who is forgiven much, loves much.

Was it always that simple Lord?
I did not know how to search out the "all" of which I have been forgiven, but I knew it was right to love you.
And the supreme rightness of that, and of the question it has always begotten of such fear and trembling in my soul as I walk among so many weeping souls seeking to love, seeking its proof, seeking its object of being, is answered.
Not by my own soul's self query, but the cry of "how much am I loved, Father?"
And "how much dare I?"


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## BT Charlie (Sep 20, 2014)

Beautifully said. This is a good gig for you, and the holy spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 20, 2014)

It's possible that all Christians are disciples and that the references to the 12 pertain directly to all of us. Maybe God chose all of us to bear fruit and abide. 
Regardless of whether God chose me or I chose God, I can only give all power and humbleness to God for granting me the ability to bear fruit and to abide with him. Without him I can't do either. I am nothing without God. The ability just isn't there.


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## BT Charlie (Sep 21, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's possible that all Christians are disciples and that the references to the 12 pertain directly to all of us. Maybe God chose all of us to bear fruit and abide.
> Regardless of whether God chose me or I chose God, I can only give all power and humbleness to God for granting me the ability to bear fruit and to abide with him. Without him I can't do either. I am nothing without God. The ability just isn't there.




Amen, Art.


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## Swaggert (Sep 27, 2014)

Sin will forever be forgiven, when asked for forgiveness through prayer, admitting that you failed The Lord. 

Sin is eternal. God uses sin to draw us closer to him. We serve a jealous God.


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