# Water VS Blood



## Lowjack

Much has being debated about Baptism as a requirement for Salvation, but can Water cleanse you of sin ? if that were so why the did Christ had to shed his blood ?

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Leviticus 17:11 He explains: "The life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Atonement is satisfaction for an offense, resulting in the restoration of a broken relationship. "According to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22).

Under the Old Covenant there was atonement through the blood of sacrificial animals. This prefigured the blood of Christ, who would bring the ultimate sacrifice for sin. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4).

"Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrews 9:12-14). 
Now we can better understand John's statement: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
(Hebrews 13:12). Having been made holy by the blood of Christ, we may boldly approach God's throne of grace.

The blood of Christ is the ultimate proof of God's love. "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:8,9). He "loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood" (Revelation 1:5).

The grace of God is demonstrated by the blood of Christ. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith" (Romans 3:24,25). "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7).
"Conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:17- 19). The church was purchased by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28).
"He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13,14). "Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death' " (Revelation 12:10,11).
"Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb' " (Revelation 7:13,14). "And they sang a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation' " (Revelation 5:9).

"If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).

SEEMS TO ME THEN THAT THE BAPTISM AS A RITUAL HAS NO POWER TO SAVE AND THE ONLY LIQUID THAT CAN CLEANSE YOU IS THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD,YESHUA HA MASSHIACH , SHALOM 
__________________


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## Ronnie T

Forgiveness of sin is only found in the cleansing, shed blood of Christ Jesus.

Now, biblically speaking, when specifically does the blood of Jesus cleanse a new convert of their past sins.
And remember, I said, biblically speaking.


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## THREEJAYS

Acts 2:38 gives a hint


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Forgiveness of sin is only found in the cleansing, shed blood of Christ Jesus.
> 
> Now, biblically speaking, when specifically does the blood of Jesus cleanse a new convert of their past sins.
> And remember, I said, biblically speaking.



If we use The Law as a guide, the moment the Priest sprinkled the blood, atonement was made.


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> If we use The Law as a guide, the moment the Priest sprinkled the blood, atonement was made.



I was kinda thinking more in line with what Jesus and His apostles taught.


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## farmasis

The moment we accept Christ, our sins are forgiven.

Therefore, if anyone _is_ in Christ, _he is_ a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28892 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> Now all things _are_ of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28893 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 
<SUP id=en-NKJV-28894 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore _you_ on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28895 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> For He made Him who knew no sin _to be_ sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Cor 5)


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## farmasis

THREEJAYS said:


> Acts 2:38 gives a hint


 
It does give a hint, but IMO the rest of the NT gives the answer.

  <SUP id=en-NKJV-26074 class=versenum>*33*</SUP> I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ (John 1)

*<SUP>5</SUP>* for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1)

Folks, there ain't no power in the water!


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## addictedtodeer

Heb 10:12  But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 
Heb 10:13  waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. 
Heb 10:14  For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified. 

Sins were forgiven at the cross.

Joh 19:30  When Jesus had received the sour wine, he said, "It is finished," and he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. 

It is finished means something. 

Humanly speaking our sins are forgiven at certain point in time in our lives, Biblically speaking sins are forgiven at the cross. We receive what Christ already did.


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## Ronnie T

I agree that it was on the cross that the blood of Jesus was shed.
But according to the Bible, the forgiveness of sins was not bestowed upon us individual converts until later.

The Bible tells more than once when our sins will be forgiven.

Our sins are cleansed from us by the blood of Jesus, but when?


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> I was kinda thinking more in line with what Jesus and His apostles taught.



I think in line with Fulfilling the Law which is where Christ is found first.
Without it , one just belongs to a cult called Christianity without roots.


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## christianhunter

Boy Howdy,how do things in Scripture get so twisted.A Brother posted some verses out of II Timothy in another Thread,that some may need to read.


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## ddd-shooter

Here we go again...


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## BeenHuntn

christianhunter said:


> Boy Howdy,how do things in Scripture get so twisted.A Brother posted some verses out of II Timothy in another Thread,that some may need to read.



Scripture gets twisted because you have unbelievers calling themselves believers and go about interpreting the Scripture themselves instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture...

since they dont have the Holy Spirit... thet mess it all up.

would be the same as a 2 year old trying to truthfully explain algebra...

God said, "many are called, but few are chosen"... In the Bible, "few" means just that... "few".  so God says that few people will be saved. only saved people receive the Holy Spirit.  God would not waste His Holy Spirit on the lost.
so few people have any business even thinking of interpreting Scripture...  that should be reserved for the Spirit filled only.

the Bible is a spiritual book, not a religious book.  the word "spirit" (spiritual, etc) is in the Bible over 500 times and the word religion is in the Bible, 5 times, and only once in a positive sense...

so there you have it... you have millions of people claiming to be religious trying to intrepret the Bible. when they have no right to do so.  they do have the right to read it with the hopes of finding Jesus but they should not try and interpret.

you have thousands of false preachers messing the Scriptures up also as well as thousands of cemetary, uh, i mean seminary teachers who have no business teaching anything about Scripture also messing up the meanings of the Scripture

there is one meaning to Scripture and that is what God says that is means...  all of the false brethren, teachers and professors are fouling up the meaning of Scripture.

i use Scripture and the Holy Spirit to prove Scripture,,,, my chances of getting it wrong are less,..,

if everyone did that, many more people would be on the correct page...

i pray to the glory of the Lord, that these folks get saved and start to interprit the Bible correctly...

just mo


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## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> Much has being debated about Baptism as a requirement for Salvation, but can Water cleanse you of sin ? if that were so why the did Christ had to shed his blood ?



Exactly.
If we could've just been baptized into salvation, Jesus' work on the cross wouldn't be needed.
He either IS or isn't the only way.


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## mtnwoman

Are children that are baptized at birth or sprinkled or whatever, saved? 
Is someone on their death bed or in Iraq "not" saved if they aren't baptized but accept Jesus Christ?

The power is in Christ and the crucifiction and the resurrection. Baptism is just like communion is, symbolic, that's it.

Not sure why this keeps being brought up...I've never known anyone to refuse baptism if it were available to them after they accept Jesus Christ.


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## Lowjack

BeenHuntn said:


> Scripture gets twisted because you have unbelievers calling themselves believers and go about interpreting the Scripture themselves instead of letting Scripture interpret Scripture...
> 
> since they dont have the Holy Spirit... thet mess it all up.
> 
> would be the same as a 2 year old trying to truthfully explain algebra...
> 
> God said, "many are called, but few are chosen"... In the Bible, "few" means just that... "few".  so God says that few people will be saved. only saved people receive the Holy Spirit.  God would not waste His Holy Spirit on the lost.
> so few people have any business even thinking of interpreting Scripture...  that should be reserved for the Spirit filled only.
> 
> the Bible is a spiritual book, not a religious book.  the word "spirit" (spiritual, etc) is in the Bible over 500 times and the word religion is in the Bible, 5 times, and only once in a positive sense...
> 
> so there you have it... you have millions of people claiming to be religious trying to intrepret the Bible. when they have no right to do so.  they do have the right to read it with the hopes of finding Jesus but they should not try and interpret.
> 
> you have thousands of false preachers messing the Scriptures up also as well as thousands of cemetary, uh, i mean seminary teachers who have no business teaching anything about Scripture also messing up the meanings of the Scripture
> 
> there is one meaning to Scripture and that is what God says that is means...  all of the false brethren, teachers and professors are fouling up the meaning of Scripture.
> 
> i use Scripture and the Holy Spirit to prove Scripture,,,, my chances of getting it wrong are less,..,
> 
> if everyone did that, many more people would be on the correct page...
> 
> i pray to the glory of the Lord, that these folks get saved and start to interprit the Bible correctly...
> 
> just mo



I don't think that they are unbelievers, I just think is the other reason you gave, a 2 Year old trying to explain math.
I have students in the University just out of high school or GED program, who have their own version in many subjects in religion, but most come from what  they watch on TV as kids, we have also many who only watch TV preachers.
And they still argue with me, LOL
If you are not washed in The blood of The Messiah you will not see the Kingdom of God.


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Exactly.
> If we could've just been baptized into salvation, Jesus' work on the cross wouldn't be needed.
> He either IS or isn't the only way.



I agree with you.
Biblically speaking, a person cannot simply be baptized into salvation.
It is the blood of Jesus that can cleanse us of our sins.

But, biblically speaking, at what point in our life does God touch us with the cleansing blood of Jesus.
There is a biblical answer.


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## rjcruiser

THREEJAYS said:


> Acts 2:38 gives a hint



Okay...sorry, couldn't let this one pass.

ThreeJays....read a little further in Acts...all the way to chapter 10 and the conversion of Cornelius.  If you read it...especially vs 44, you'll note that the Holy Spirit came upon those who Peter was preaching to.  They had not yet been baptized, yet they received the Holy Spirit.

If baptism is required for salvation, how can you receive the Holy Spirit before being baptized/saved?


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## Six million dollar ham

BeenHuntn said:


> so there you have it... you have millions of people claiming to be religious trying to intrepret the Bible. when they have no right to do so.  they do have the right to read it with the hopes of finding Jesus but they should not try and interpret.



They have no right to do so?  Why do you say this?  Scripture is not meant to be interpreted?



BeenHuntn said:


> i use Scripture and the Holy Spirit to prove Scripture,,,, my chances of getting it wrong are less,..,
> 
> if everyone did that, many more people would be on the correct page...



Seems like you've got it all figured out.


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## THREEJAYS

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with you.
> Biblically speaking, a person cannot simply be baptized into salvation.
> It is the blood of Jesus that can cleanse us of our sins.
> 
> But, biblically speaking, at what point in our life does God touch us with the cleansing blood of Jesus.
> There is a biblical answer.



For sure. Scripture also says we are baptized into Christ.



rjcruiser said:


> Okay...sorry, couldn't let this one pass.
> 
> ThreeJays....read a little further in Acts...all the way to chapter 10 and the conversion of Cornelius.  If you read it...especially vs 44, you'll note that the Holy Spirit came upon those who Peter was preaching to.  They had not yet been baptized, yet they received the Holy Spirit.
> 
> If baptism is required for salvation, how can you receive the Holy Spirit before being baptized/saved?



Then how do you reconcile Acts 2:38 and Jesus's words in Mark 16:16.You can't say that it's only an act to show a changed person because the Bible does not say that?


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## thedeacon

Lowjack said:


> If we use The Law as a guide, the moment the Priest sprinkled the blood, atonement was made.



If you are referring to the Law of Moses, why not use all of it instead of just the parts you like. We are under the law of Grace no Moses.

I agree that only through the blood of Jesus can we be saved.

But please explain these verses to me

Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16 
1 Pet 3:21
Luke 3:3
Acts 22:16

Just a few

Please read the story of the conversion of Paul in Acts 22 and tell me when he was saved.
 Was it on the road or was it in the city? If it was on the road please explain to me what sins was washed away in verse 16? There were surely sins there, were they commited between the time he had met Jesus on the road and rendered blind, and sick? Were they previous sins?

Could he have had so many sins between the time of meeting Jesus and meeting the man in the city?

Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins.

Yes, surely the blood of Christ saves you, Yes you are saved by grace, yes I am saved by my faith, yes, without works my faith is dead being alone.

Would it be safe to say that I am saved by the blood of Christ, by the Grace of God through the faith that I have, by obeying the commandments of God.

If you love me you will obey my commandments. 

We are not saved by works but without works we do not have faith so our faith is a dead faith, without obeying the commands of God we cannot love God and who can be saved without loving God.

Acts 10:48
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.    Command, did he say command? If you love me you will keep my commandments.

Have you ever noticed " when Baptism and Salvation is mentioned in the same passage or verse salvation is always mentioned after Baptism."

Do I think that baptism saves me? Not in itself, but I do think baptism is a very essential part of salvation, but you know what, it doesn't matter what I think because I am just a dum ole country boy. The question is what does the bible say? What does Jesus want me to do?

When I leave here to visit my family in North West Florida I am taking a trip from one place to another I have to go through several towns to get there I can't just skip several miles in the middle because I want to make the trip easier, faster or more convenient. I am accountable for every mile.

There is no short cut to Heaven. Every command is given for a reason. 


Christianity is not something you get it is a way of life.

You don't go "get saved" you are given salvation by the grace of God when you obey.

I said to much already but I ask you to please read and study.

Think twice and you will become much wiser. The one time thinker is not very wise.

There is not such thing as water vs. blood, love vs. compassion, faith vs. work, humility vs. meekness etc. Its all there, you can cut it out.


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## thedeacon

farmasis said:


> It does give a hint, but IMO the rest of the NT gives the answer.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-26074 class=versenum>*33*</SUP> I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’ (John 1)
> 
> *<SUP>5</SUP>* for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.” (Acts 1)
> 
> Folks, there ain't no power in the water!




I agree 100% and I will repeat, Folks, there ain't no power in the water. 

However there is power in obeying the commands of the King.


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## rjcruiser

THREEJAYS said:


> Then how do you reconcile Acts 2:38 and Jesus's words in Mark 16:16.You can't say that it's only an act to show a changed person because the Bible does not say that?



As far as Acts 2:38...you must look at the word that is translated "for" in the greek.  Eis.  Translating it into "for" is loose in its meaning and based upon other scriptures that say "faith alone"  (see Eph 2:8-9) show that works are not required for forgiveness.

I'll look more into Mark 16:16.


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## rjcruiser

thedeacon said:


> I agree 100% and I will repeat, Folks, there ain't no power in the water.
> 
> However there is power in obeying the commands of the King.



Yup...but thankfully, we aren't condemned to he!! when we fail in not following all of God's commands, for no one is perfect.

Kinda like what is the difference between lying and not being baptized?  Both are condemned by God, but if you lie or don't get baptized, it isn't going to keep you from Heaven.


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## Lowjack

thedeacon said:


> If you are referring to the Law of Moses, why not use all of it instead of just the parts you like. We are under the law of Grace no Moses.
> 
> I agree that only through the blood of Jesus can we be saved.
> 
> But please explain these verses to me
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Mark 16:16
> 1 Pet 3:21
> Luke 3:3
> Acts 22:16
> 
> Just a few
> 
> Please read the story of the conversion of Paul in Acts 22 and tell me when he was saved.
> Was it on the road or was it in the city? If it was on the road please explain to me what sins was washed away in verse 16? There were surely sins there, were they commited between the time he had met Jesus on the road and rendered blind, and sick? Were they previous sins?
> 
> Could he have had so many sins between the time of meeting Jesus and meeting the man in the city?
> 
> Arise and be baptized and wash away your sins.
> 
> Yes, surely the blood of Christ saves you, Yes you are saved by grace, yes I am saved by my faith, yes, without works my faith is dead being alone.
> 
> Would it be safe to say that I am saved by the blood of Christ, by the Grace of God through the faith that I have, by obeying the commandments of God.
> 
> If you love me you will obey my commandments.
> 
> We are not saved by works but without works we do not have faith so our faith is a dead faith, without obeying the commands of God we cannot love God and who can be saved without loving God.
> 
> Acts 10:48
> And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.    Command, did he say command? If you love me you will keep my commandments.
> 
> Have you ever noticed " when Baptism and Salvation is mentioned in the same passage or verse salvation is always mentioned after Baptism."
> 
> Do I think that baptism saves me? Not in itself, but I do think baptism is a very essential part of salvation, but you know what, it doesn't matter what I think because I am just a dum ole country boy. The question is what does the bible say? What does Jesus want me to do?
> 
> When I leave here to visit my family in North West Florida I am taking a trip from one place to another I have to go through several towns to get there I can't just skip several miles in the middle because I want to make the trip easier, faster or more convenient. I am accountable for every mile.
> 
> There is no short cut to Heaven. Every command is given for a reason.
> 
> 
> Christianity is not something you get it is a way of life.
> 
> You don't go "get saved" you are given salvation by the grace of God when you obey.
> 
> I said to much already but I ask you to please read and study.
> 
> Think twice and you will become much wiser. The one time thinker is not very wise.
> 
> There is not such thing as water vs. blood, love vs. compassion, faith vs. work, humility vs. meekness etc. Its all there, you can cut it out.



You are preaching to a Law keeper from Birth brother, I used that example as keeping in Context to what we are discussing, commenting on Grace without knowing where grace comes from is fruitless, discussing the blood of Christ without understanding how it is that the blood is what saves us is also fruitless.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Yup...but thankfully, we aren't condemned to he!! when we fail in not following all of God's commands, for no one is perfect.
> 
> Kinda like what is the difference between lying and not being baptized?  Both are condemned by God, but if you lie or don't get baptized, it isn't going to keep you from Heaven.



RJ, I know that you are a studier of God's word.  Do you seriously think that being baptized is no more than not lying?
I don't think you do.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...sorry, couldn't let this one pass.
> 
> ThreeJays....read a little further in Acts...all the way to chapter 10 and the conversion of Cornelius.  If you read it...especially vs 44, you'll note that the Holy Spirit came upon those who Peter was preaching to.  They had not yet been baptized, yet they received the Holy Spirit.
> 
> If baptism is required for salvation, how can you receive the Holy Spirit before being baptized/saved?




Peter made it very clear that what happened with Cornelius was out of the ordinary.  Done so for the benefit of the Jews who were there.


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## gordon 2

“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with
another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin” (1 John 1:7).

By being deciples!!!!!!!!!!!!! by doing things "as He is in the light",...in accord with Kingdom principles. Works again....LOL etc....

I am baptised in the church? And once more the church is a body or physical. It is an institution taylor made for servants or deciples...


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with you.
> Biblically speaking, a person cannot simply be baptized into salvation.
> It is the blood of Jesus that can cleanse us of our sins.
> 
> But, biblically speaking, at what point in our life does God touch us with the cleansing blood of Jesus.
> There is a biblical answer.



The moment we confess Jesus Christ is Lord.... confess in our heart, not necessarily confess at the alter or confess at baptism but the moment we confess who He is, if we believe it in our heart, we are saved.
He knocks we open the door and let Him in....

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:8-10 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter) 
Romans 10:10
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-11 (in Context) Romans 10 (Whole Chapter


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## Bitteroot

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with you.
> Biblically speaking, a person cannot simply be baptized into salvation.
> It is the blood of Jesus that can cleanse us of our sins.
> 
> But, biblically speaking, at what point in our life does God touch us with the cleansing blood of Jesus.
> There is a biblical answer.



When the side of Christ was pierced on the cross out flowed blood and water from the Lamb.  Funny thing is many sing about it at church every week and don't grasp the meaning IMO.  The blood of Christ was forever mixed with the waters of this earth and extablished the link to baptism changing it from the baptism of John.. to the baptism of Christ.  Prior to Christs death on the cross baptism was symbolic... afterwards it was a commandment and a requirement.

On a non scriptural note.. I find it ironic that water is the life of the earth and since I know who created the earth EXACTLY as he intended it to be...including water! As it was purposed in his heart from the very beginning! 

Water is  life sustaining, physically, mentaly, hygenically and as referenced in the NT...  spiritually, by the cleansing of the soul if is one desire to follow what is commanded of us after we confess our sins.. and repent.  Otherwise its just a casual swim.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> RJ, I know that you are a studier of God's word.  Do you seriously think that being baptized is no more than not lying?
> I don't think you do.



Yes...I do.  It is a command.  Just like being a witness for Christ.  It is something that should naturally follow conversion.  Is someone who doesn't witness for Christ going to he!!?  Of course not, but if they don't, they are not obeying Christ and it reflects poorly on their conversion/faith.



Ronnie T said:


> Peter made it very clear that what happened with Cornelius was out of the ordinary.  Done so for the benefit of the Jews who were there.



Really?  Where does he make it clear that it was out of the ordinary?


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## rjcruiser

Bitteroot said:


> When the side of Christ was pierced on the cross out flowed blood and water from the Lamb.  Funny thing is many sing about it at church every week and don't grasp the meaning IMO.  The blood of Christ was forever mixed with the waters of this earth and extablished the link to baptism changing it from the baptism of John.. to the baptism of Christ.  Prior to Christs death on the cross baptism was symbolic... afterwards it was a commandment and a requirement.



Interesting....never heard that one before.

I just don't understand how the requirements for salvation change from before Christ's death to after His death.

We know that God never changes....His promises never change....Hebrews tells us that Abraham was saved by Faith....how is it that before Christ's death, salvation is by Faith....then after Christ's death, salvation is by Faith plus Baptism?


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## Bitteroot

I didn't write the law.. just try and follow it.  But honestly... I don't do a very good job of it sometimes.  I don't agree with several on here and their beliefs.. but I admire thier dedication.. which is much stronger than mine.


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## rjcruiser

Bitteroot said:


> I didn't write the law.. just try and follow it.  But honestly... I don't do a very good job of it sometimes.



Praise God that Christ's death and resurrection cover all of our shortcomings.  Like Paul, I am chief among Sinners.  

That is what makes the Grace of God all that more special.


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## Lowjack

Bitteroot said:


> When the side of Christ was pierced on the cross out flowed blood and water from the Lamb.  Funny thing is many sing about it at church every week and don't grasp the meaning IMO.  The blood of Christ was forever mixed with the waters of this earth and extablished the link to baptism changing it from the baptism of John.. to the baptism of Christ.  Prior to Christs death on the cross baptism was symbolic... afterwards it was a commandment and a requirement.
> 
> On a non scriptural note.. I find it ironic that water is the life of the earth and since I know who created the earth EXACTLY as he intended it to be...including water! As it was purposed in his heart from the very beginning!
> 
> Water is  life sustaining, physically, mentaly, hygenically and as referenced in the NT...  spiritually, by the cleansing of the soul if is one desire to follow what is commanded of us after we confess our sins.. and repent.  Otherwise its just a casual swim.


Excellent analogy !


----------



## Ronnie T

Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
Peter made it very clear that what happened with Cornelius was out of the ordinary. Done so for the benefit of the Jews who were there.



rjcruiser said:


> Really?  Where does he make it clear that it was out of the ordinary?



Acts 10:  44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the message. 
45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 
46For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 
47"Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?" 48And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."


This is the only time, the only time, that anyone other than apostles received gifts of Holy Spirit in this way prior to a person verbally accepting Jesus and being baptized.
I believe verse 47 tells why.
It was done by God to set at ease the minds of the Jewish Christians to the validity of these people's right to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
"Surely these people cannot be refused baptism.
Then Peter commanded these people be baptism.
It was the only command given.


----------



## whome

Wow... I don't think I have the authority to tell someone they don't have to be baptized, but I know someone who does.
Matthew 28: 18-20

18 A Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nation, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world."

If Jesus commands to be baptized; who am I to tell someone that in order to be save, you don't have to be baptized. Should this EVEN be a question? To tell someone all they have to do is "accept or say a prayer or just believe" is not what was taught in the bible.

Baptism is important in salvation because the bible says so and teaching otherwise, well....


----------



## thedeacon

In my opinion, as you can read in post #21, baptism is a command, just as repentance is a command. But the important thing is it doesn't matter what my opinion is or what your opinion might be.
The question is, what does the bible say? 

If you read the bible and say that baptism is not a commandment you are reading a differant new testiment that I. Its plain, its simple, Christ himself said it, the inspiried writers said it so why not just do it. 

No one on here has even tried to prove that there is saving power in water but in obeying the gospel of Christ. We are saved by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ, no doubt about it.

Please read what it says in second Kings chapter 5 

1Now Naaman was commander of the army of the king of Aram. He was a great man in the sight of his master and highly regarded, because through him the Lord had given victory to Aram. He was a valiant soldier, but he had leprosy.a 

2Now bands from Aram had gone out and had taken captive a young girl from Israel, and she served Naaman’s wife. 3She said to her mistress, “If only my master would see the prophet who is in Samaria! He would cure him of his leprosy.” 

4Naaman went to his master and told him what the girl from Israel had said. 5“By all means, go,” the king of Aram replied. “I will send a letter to the king of Israel.” So Naaman left, taking with him ten talentsb of silver, six thousand shekelsc of gold and ten sets of clothing. 6The letter that he took to the king of Israel read: “With this letter I am sending my servant Naaman to you so that you may cure him of his leprosy.” 

7As soon as the king of Israel read the letter, he tore his robes and said, “Am I God? Can I kill and bring back to life? Why does this fellow send someone to me to be cured of his leprosy? See how he is trying to pick a quarrel with me!” 

8When Elisha the man of God heard that the king of Israel had torn his robes, he sent him this message: “Why have you torn your robes? Have the man come to me and he will know that there is a prophet in Israel.” 9So Naaman went with his horses and chariots and stopped at the door of Elisha’s house. 10Elisha sent a messenger to say to him, “Go, wash yourself seven times in the Jordan, and your flesh will be restored and you will be cleansed.” 

11But Naaman went away angry and said, “I thought that he would surely come out to me and stand and call on the name of the Lord his God, wave his hand over the spot and cure me of my leprosy. 12Are not Abana and Pharpar, the rivers of Damascus, better than any of the waters of Israel? Couldn’t I wash in them and be cleansed?” So he turned and went off in a rage. 

13Naaman’s servants went to him and said, “My father, if the prophet had told you to do some great thing, would you not have done it? How much more, then, when he tells you, ‘Wash and be cleansed’!” 14So he went down and dipped himself in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him, and his flesh was restored and became clean like that of a young boy. 

15Then Naaman and all his attendants went back to the man of God. He stood before him and said, “Now I know that there is no God in all the world except in Israel. Please accept now a gift from your servant.” 

16The prophet answered, “As surely as the Lord lives, whom I serve, I will not accept a thing.” And even though Naaman urged him, he refused. 

Naaman was healed because he did what was commanded of him, the Jordan river did not do it, the prophet of God did not do it, the water did not do it. Obediance did it. What if Naaman only dipped 5 times in the water would he have been healed?

I don't know about you but I want to be sure of my salvation, just as the servant told Naaman, if God had ask a great thing I would not hesitate but he has only ask us things we are all capable of doing and baptism is one of those things.

13Who is going to harm you if you are eager to do good? 
14But even if you should suffer for what is right, you are blessed. “Do not fear what they fearb; do not be frightened.”c 
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 
16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
 17It is better, if it is God’s will, to suffer for doing good than for doing evil. 
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 
19through whomd also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 
20who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledgee of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 
22who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.Its there can you deny it?

Sorry for the long post


----------



## Ronnie T

It is not "Water verses Blood".

It's "water and the blood".


----------



## Lead Poison

Lowjack said:


> SEEMS TO ME THEN THAT THE BAPTISM AS A RITUAL HAS NO POWER TO SAVE AND THE ONLY LIQUID THAT CAN CLEANSE YOU IS THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD,YESHUA HA MASSHIACH , SHALOM
> __________________



Amen!

Baptism is a public profession of faith that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

You do NOT have to be baptized in order to go to heaven! However, as a witness to others, you should follow Jesus' instructions to be baptized.


----------



## Ronnie T

Lead Poison said:


> Amen!
> 
> Baptism is a public profession of faith that you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
> 
> You do NOT have to be baptized in order to go to heaven! However, as a witness to others, you should follow Jesus' instructions to be baptized.



So, would it be okay if everyone stands before the judgement seat and tells God.......

"Jesus said that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved but Lord, Lead Poison told us "You do NOT have to be baptized in order to go to heaven!".  ????

Isn't it funny   that neither Jesus or any of the apostles ever mentioned baptism and then followed it up by saying, "Well, you don't actually have to be baptized."??

Lead Poison, if I were you, I'd just be satisfied to say exactly what was taught in regard to baptism.


----------



## Lead Poison

Ronnie T said:


> So, would it be okay if everyone stands before the judgement seat and tells God.......
> 
> "Jesus said that those who believe and are baptized shall be saved but Lord, Lead Poison told us "You do NOT have to be baptized in order to go to heaven!".  ????
> 
> Isn't it funny   that neither Jesus or any of the apostles ever mentioned baptism and then followed it up by saying, "Well, you don't actually have to be baptized."??
> 
> Lead Poison, if I were you, I'd just be satisfied to say exactly what was taught in regard to baptism.



I am sticking to what was "taught" about baptism. 

Obviously, you are not a Southern Baptist. Sorry, but you don't have to be baptized in water. You do however, have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.

Even the thief on the cross, who wasn't baptized in water, will make it to heaven. 

This opens up a whole new area of discussion. As for baptizing babies who aren't at an age of understanding and accountability, well, I guess they just needed a bath.


----------



## mtnwoman

Jesus did it ALL on the cross. Nothing we can do to save ourselves even being baptized.

If baptism could've saved us, Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross.

I've been baptized and of course it's an awesome experience to be buried with Christ (dunk) and raised out of the water being resurrected a new creature in Christ. Symbolic of His death for sin and resurrection.

I'm washed in the blood to cover my sins, washed in water to experience death to sin and raised into a new creature.
When I accepted Christ in the first place, I became a new creature, because of the blood not because of the water.

And I believe the scripture saying we must be baptized means being baptized in the holy spirit...which is letting Christ live inside of us.

If you believe water has some power, then sprinkling would save us, we wouldn't even have to do anything else. Spray ya down and you're good to go.

It's symbolic, that's all.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it funny   that neither Jesus or any of the apostles ever mentioned baptism and then followed it up by saying, "Well, you don't actually have to be baptized."??



Yes, it is.  The teaching that baptism is merely symbolic is unheard of in the first fifteen centuries of church history.  It's an innovation unknown to the early church.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, it is.  The teaching that baptism is merely symbolic is unheard of in the first fifteen centuries of church history.  It's an innovation unknown to the early church.



So to be buried with Christ and resurrected out of the water is not symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection? Then what is it? You don't really die like Christ, just like you don't really drink His blood and eat His flesh in communion.

What does baptism mean, if it doesn't represent (symbolic) the death and resurrection of Christ?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> So to be buried with Christ and resurrected out of the water is not symbolic of Christ's death and resurrection?



I said it's not _merely_ symbolic.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I said it's not _merely_ symbolic.



Ok...I agree.
Explain more of what it is, if you don't mind...it's symbolic and what else?
Thanks


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## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> ...it's symbolic and what else?



It is actual, real union with Christ.


----------



## Big7

Theologians distinguish a twofold necessity, which they call a necessity of means (medii) and a necessity of precept (præcepti). The first (medii) indicates a thing to be so necessary that, if lacking (though inculpably), salvation can not be attained. The second (præcepti) is had when a thing is indeed so necessary that it may not be omitted voluntarily without sin; yet, ignorance of the precept or inability to fulfill it, excuses one from its observance. 

Baptism is held to be necessary both necessitate medii and præcepti. This doctrine is rounded on the words of Christ. In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of _*water and the Holy Ghost*_, he can not enter into the kingdom of God." _*Christ makes no exception to this law *_and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.

So... There you go!


----------



## tell sackett

Must resist....Must resist...

Psst, hey buddy, wanna buy a good used club?


----------



## centerpin fan

tell sackett said:


> Must resist....Must resist...



That's what I told myself, and I _still_ got in. 

I'm so weak.


----------



## tell sackett

PA(posters anonymous) maybe? There's times when I could use it.


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## mtnwoman

Big7 said:


> COLOR="Red"]In John 3, He declares: "Unless a man be born again of _*water and the Holy Ghost*_, he can not enter into the kingdom of God."[/COLOR] _*Christ makes no exception to this law *_and it is therefore general in its application, embracing both adults and infants. It is consequently not merely a necessity of precept but also a necessity of means.
> 
> So... There you go!



So death bed/battlefield professions of faith are null and void, due to the fact there is no baptism? And I'm serious I'd like an opinion on this question.

Don't get me wrong, baptism and communion are precious and a necessary part of my worship and I'm humbled at each and every one of them.
My greatest wish is to be baptized in the Jordan river.

It's hard for me to fathom that our most gracious and merciful Lord would close the gates to heaven to you because you weren't baptized in water.


----------



## Ronnie T

Lead Poison said:


> I am sticking to what was "taught" about baptism.
> 
> Obviously, you are not a Southern Baptist. Sorry, but you don't have to be baptized in water. You do however, have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.
> 
> Even the thief on the cross, who wasn't baptized in water, will make it to heaven.
> 
> This opens up a whole new area of discussion. As for baptizing babies who aren't at an age of understanding and accountability, well, I guess they just needed a bath.




I left what I was taught about baptism.  I no longer trust what the S. Baptist, or the Cath, or the Meth teach about anything.  (No offence anyone, just making a point).  People need to begin honestly reading God's word for themselves.

For your own good, I'd suggest you do a Bible search of *baptized*, *baptism*, *baptize*.  Begin with Jesus' great commission and read all the scripture concerning it in the Gospel.  Use biblegateway.com.   See how baptism connects to the other scripture around it.

You'll find that ...............
it is never mentioned as being symbolic of anything.
no one is every given an option in baptism.
in baptism, one puts on Christ.

You'll also see that Biblical baptism is not looked upon as being just another work.

New testament baptism was instituted in Acts 2.  It was there that the question was asked for the first time, "What must we do?"


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> New testament baptism was instituted in Acts 2.  It was there that the question was asked for the first time, "What must we do?"



So death bed/battlefield professions of faith are null and void, due to the fact there is no baptism?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> You'll find that ...............
> it is never mentioned as being symbolic of anything.
> no one is every given an option in baptism.
> in baptism, one puts on Christ.



When I'm saying symbolic, I'm saying that we aren't really buried physically with Christ in His tomb and resurrected with Him by rolling the stone away. Just like we really don't eat His flesh or drink His blood at communion. Spiritually we are doing it, 'acting as if'...just like the cross is our symbol of Jesus death and what He did on the cross. The cross itself means nothing, what it symbolizes means everything.

I put on Christ the moment I opened the door and let Him into my heart, I was in Him and He was in me....I was changed at that moment, nothing I have done since then has nailed down my salvation.


----------



## mtnwoman

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.


This proves the JW's are right, doesn't it?  


This is what my entire Christianity is built on....this is what the entire OT was about and the NT.

John 3:16 (King James Version)

 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Because I believe that, I do other things and believe other things....but I believe Christ did it all on the cross. All I have to do is believe it and the rest comes from the Christ in me.
I get baptized or take communion or witness door to door, or go to church or feed the hungry because of the Christ that's in me, not because I believe that's what will nail down my salvation.

I'm redeemed/bought back by the blood of the Lamb!!


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> When I'm saying symbolic, I'm saying that we aren't really buried physically with Christ in His tomb and resurrected with Him by rolling the stone away.



True, but something _really_ does happen.  Look at Romans 6:3-5 (NIV):

_Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 
 If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection._

Baptism is where we are united with Christ's death, burial and resurrection.




mtnwoman said:


> I put on Christ the moment I opened the door and let Him into my heart,



I don't doubt your sincerity or your love for God at all, but this terminology is foreign to any of the NT conversion stories and the early church.  Compare with this similar statement in Galatians 3:27 (NIV):  

_for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ._


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> True, but something spiritual _really_ does happen.  Look at Romans 6:3-5 (NIV):
> 
> _Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
> If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection._
> 
> Baptism is where we are united with Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt your sincerity or your love for God at all, but this terminology is foreign to any of the NT conversion stories and the early church.  Compare with this similar statement in Galatians 3:27 (NIV):
> 
> _for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ._



Once again here is my question...

So death bed/battlefield professions of faith are null and void, due to the fact there is no baptism?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> So death bed/battlefield professions of faith are null and void, due to the fact there is no baptism?



God can save whomever he wants whenever he wants.  The thief on the cross is a good example of this and the only "death bed confession" I can think of in the NT.

Death bed confessions are not the norm, however.  For the norm, look at the crowd in Acts 2, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, and Paul in Acts 16.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> True, but something spiritual _really_ does happen.  Look at Romans 6:3-5 (NIV):
> 
> _Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
> If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection._
> 
> Baptism is where we are united with Christ's death, burial and resurrection.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't doubt your sincerity or your love for God at all, but this terminology is foreign to any of the NT conversion stories and the early church.  Compare with this similar statement in Galatians 3:27 (NIV):
> 
> _for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ._



I know something spiritual happens, that's why I said baptism and communion were spiritual and not physical....I get all that...I've done it, I know what it is. I want to be baptized in the Jordan for spiritual reasons. Washing my physical body in water is not spiritual on it's own though.

If I was in prison you don't think I could take a sip of water and a bite of bread and in my spirit accept that as communion because I don't have wine/grapejuice/blood or a cracker/wafer/flesh?

It isn't I who's confusing physical with spiritual. If it isn't done in spirit, doing it physically means nothing.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> God can save whomever he wants whenever he wants.  The thief on the cross is a good example of this and the only "death bed confession" I can think of in the NT.
> 
> Death bed confessions are not the norm, however.  For the norm, look at the crowd in Acts 2, the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8, and Paul in Acts 16.



But your scripture does not say anything about the norm, your point of the scripture is that we must be baptized to enter heaven....that doesn't mean some of us, does it? not according to what your stance is, it means ALL of us MUST be baptized to enter into heaven. It can't be both.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> I know something spiritual happens,



OK, I edited my post to remove spiritual (because I don't think we're talking about the same thing.)  Now, it just says that something happens in baptism:  union with Christ.  If you're not united with Christ in baptism, when are you united with Him?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> it means ALL of us MUST be baptized to enter into heaven.



As Big7 noted above, that's _exactly_ what Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3.




mtnwoman said:


> It can't be both.



You're placing limits on God.  The Jesus who told Nicodemus how to be born again is the same Jesus who told the thief on the cross  that he would see him in Paradise that very day.


----------



## mtnwoman

I guess my stance is that 'should' we be baptized, yes. Should we refuse baptism, no (never heard of anyone doing that).
But this MUST be baptized to enter into the kingdom, don't sit right with me...everyone I know isn't of the norm.

I'm baptist, born and raised, believe in baptism. My ex thinks he's saved because he was baptized, he's far from it. People think that's what saves them, just like people think that good works will make them be part of the 144,000, and they too will tell you that you will not enter heaven least you do them.

My catholic friends can live like hedoublehockysticks all week, ( and they do) but they will crawl to mass because that will save them, so says their mama.  Not ALL catholics, just some, just an example of what people 'think' and believe.

So I'll just make it simple for me and those I minister to, I'll go by John 3:16 and the rest will come from that. Baptism will definately first be on my list along with communion for the spiritual experience only. I'll try to do all the things Christs asks/demands, but I'm pretty sure I'll fall short...thus the blood, I'm washed in the blood...not physically but spiritually washed in the blood.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> You're placing limits on God.



ME? excuse me, it isn't me whose placing limits on God. God can choose what He wills, and whom He wants to save. And to say that without baptism you  won't enter heaven is putting a limit on God. I don't believe God has limits. 

believe in Jesus...check
baptized....check
works....check
communion...check

ok you're in

believe in Jesus...check
baptized...no we live in a sewer in south africa
works....we have no money or food
communion....we have no tidbit or juice

ok you're out...step aside.

Buy your own words it's a MUST to be baptized....I don't believe that.  Maybe refusing baptism, I dunno...but MUST, no....else Christ DIDN'T do it ALL on the cross.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> But this MUST be baptized to enter into the kingdom, don't sit right with me...everyone I know isn't of the norm.



I understand, but for many people, belief in Christ and repentance "don't sit right", either.  Universalists believe everyone will be saved, regardless of what they do or believe.  




mtnwoman said:


> I'm baptist, born and raised, believe in baptism.



I was raised Baptist myself.  I speak fluent Baptist. 




mtnwoman said:


> I'll try to do all the things Christs asks/demands, but I'm pretty sure I'll fall short...



We all fall short.  May the Lord strengthen and keep you on your journey.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Buy your own words it's a MUST to be baptized....



I am not the author of John 3.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> OK, I edited my post to remove spiritual (because I don't think we're talking about the same thing.)  Now, it just says that something happens in baptism:  union with Christ.  If you're not united with Christ in baptism, when are you united with Him?




Here is where my union began, my first acknowlegedment and union with Him.
Revelation 3:20
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

This reminds me of the last supper, our communion with Christ.

Here is more of the text, rutroh I don't speak in tongues...

Mark 16:15-17 (New International Version)

 15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;


It says whoever does not believe will be condemned, it doesn't say whoever isn't baptized will be condemned.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I am not the author of John 3.



You're kiddin'? Neither am I, but I know what it means.


----------



## mtnwoman

I guess there's always going to be points that we don't all see eye to eye on, that's because we are not perfect yet...one day we will be.

I believe if we believe in Christ and He lives within us and we know He does because of the Holy Spirit, then our convictions will keep us on the straight and narrow, and boy does that straight and narrow beat wandering around in the desert for 40 yrs...been there done that.

Blessings to ya my brother!


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> I guess there's always going to be points that we don't all see eye to eye on, that's because we are not perfect yet...one day we will be.



Yes, I think it's time to "agree to disagree".




mtnwoman said:


> Blessings to ya my brother!



Same to you.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> When I'm saying symbolic, I'm saying that we aren't really buried physically with Christ in His tomb and resurrected with Him by rolling the stone away. Just like we really don't eat His flesh or drink His blood at communion. Spiritually we are doing it, 'acting as if'...just like the cross is our symbol of Jesus death and what He did on the cross. The cross itself means nothing, what it symbolizes means everything.
> 
> I put on Christ the moment I opened the door and let Him into my heart, I was in Him and He was in me....I was changed at that moment, nothing I have done since then has nailed down my salvation.



Do a Bible search of "put on Christ" and see what the Bible says.

What you said above sounds very good.  But sounding good doesn't count.  What counts is what God tells us to do; and what God does that we cannot do.

As for death-bed, I'll leave that to God.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I guess my stance is that 'should' we be baptized, yes. Should we refuse baptism, no (never heard of anyone doing that).
> But this MUST be baptized to enter into the kingdom, don't sit right with me...everyone I know isn't of the norm.
> 
> I'm baptist, born and raised, believe in baptism. My ex thinks he's saved because he was baptized, he's far from it. People think that's what saves them, just like people think that good works will make them be part of the 144,000, and they too will tell you that you will not enter heaven least you do them.
> Baptism alone won't get you to heaven.  Works alone won't get you to heaven.
> 
> My catholic friends can live like hedoublehockysticks all week, ( and they do) but they will crawl to mass because that will save them, so says their mama.  Not ALL catholics, just some, just an example of what people 'think' and believe.
> 
> So I'll just make it simple for me and those I minister to, I'll go by John 3:16 and the rest will come from that. Baptism will definately first be on my list along with communion for the spiritual experience only.
> If you'll check the book of Acts, you'll find that the apostles taught much more than John 3:16 as they brought people into Christ's church.
> 
> I'll try to do all the things Christs asks/demands, but I'm pretty sure I'll fall short...thus the blood, I'm washed in the blood...not physically but spiritually washed in the blood.



If you'll do a serious study of New Testament baptism, you'll find that it is during baptism that the blood of Jesus cleanses one from their past sins.  That's the time God chose to do it.
God sent a man to Paul.  This man told Paul "Arise and be baptized, washing away your sins."
Not with the water of baptism, but obviously the blood of Jesus.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> As for death-bed, I'll leave that to God.



I guess I could use that as every answer, but it isn't good enough.

And you're not leaving it to God by saying you have to be baptized to enter the kingdom.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> If you'll do a serious study of New Testament baptism, you'll find that it is during baptism that the blood of Jesus cleanses one from their past sins.  That's the time God chose to do it.
> God sent a man to Paul.  This man told Paul "Arise and be baptized, washing away your sins."
> Not with the water of baptism, but obviously the blood of Jesus.



Exactly as I've stated before. We aren't actually washed in the blood with real blood, we are washed with water which is symbolic (symbolizes) the blood. In spirit it is blood in the flesh it is water. That's my whole point.

If I am not in a position to actually be dunked in water, why in the spirit (which is where Christ works) can I not be washed in the blood?

Why is it all in the flesh that we are working? Baptism is an outward(flesh) expression of an inward cleansing, which I believe Christ's power of the blood can do that without water. 

I personally would never tell anyone not to be baptized that it is meaningless, because I don't believe that, I just do not believe that you will be turned away and will not be saved if you don't get a chance to be baptized.

Baptism is precious to me, and it's a big hallelujah when someone gets baptized and I get filled with the Spirit. But I do not believe the scripture is saying that you will not be saved if you aren't baptized.

I think it should ALL be left to God....only He knows our hearts, with or without water.

We don't see exactly eye to eye on this, but I don't believe either one of us will be turned away and there's enough info here for folks to bible study, and that's my goal, too.

Bless you my brother in Christ.


----------



## whome

It really doesn't matter what I "think or feel" only what the scriptures say, and there are numerous scriptures that clearly teaches the importance of baptism to receive forgiveness under the gospel.
Mark 16:16 - Believes and is baptized will be saved.
Acts 2:38 - Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins.
Acts 22:16 - Be baptized and wash away your sins.
Rom. 6:3,4; Gal. 3:26,27 - We are baptized into Christ, into His death. We have newness of life after we have been baptized (John 3:3,5).
I Pet. 3:21 - Baptism now saves us.

About the thief on the crosss... we do not know whether the he was or was not baptized. We are assuming that he wasn't baptized, but very well could have been as many had been baptized by John the Baptist and by Jesus' disciples (Matt. 3:5,6; John 4:1,2).  So it's possible the thief was baptized....  

Furthermore, the thief's salvation was while the Old Testament was still in effect. He is not an example of salvation under the gospel than we are under.  How he was saved is irrelevant to how we are saved. 
Col. 2:14 - Jesus removed the first ordinances nailing them to His cross. Until Jesus died, the Jews lived under the laws given at Mt. Sinai through Moses. When He died, those laws ceased to be in effect. 
Eph. 2:13-16 - He abolished the old law through His blood shed on the cross (v13,16).
Heb. 10:9,10; 9:16,17 - Jesus removed the first testament and replaced it with His new covenant the gospel. It is under this new testament that we are saved by Jesus' death. As with any will or testament, Jesus had to die to bring His testament into force. The old law was in effect until Jesus died, then it was replaced by the New Covenant. Gal. 3:13; Rom. 7:4

But the thief was forgiven before Jesus died and while the first covenant was still in effect. The conditions he had to meet to be forgiven prove nothing about the conditions under which we are forgiven. He proves no more about how we should be saved than does David, Moses, Noah, or Abraham. They did not have to believe what we do nor did they have to be baptized because they did not live under the same law we do.

And yes, while Jesus was on earth, he had the power to forgive people directly as he chose....Jesus directly spoke the forgiveness of several people (Mark 2:5-12; Luke 7:48,49; cf. John 8:1-11) and the thief is another case.


----------



## whome

[/QUOTE] Baptism is an outward(flesh) expression of an inward cleansing, which I believe Christ's power of the blood can do that without water. 
QUOTE]

Where does that saying come from... An outward expression of an inner faith?

Perhaps, in Acts 8 when Philip was asked by the Ethiopian Eunuch about seeing the water and being baptized, he should have said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest, but we don't really need to stop cause Christ's power of the blood can do that without water. Keep in mind he could have said that... Look at the multiple conversions in the NT all believed and were baptized. 
It might be worthwhile to do a word study on "into." What takes us from being without to being within Christ and his death???


----------



## pileit

Lowjack said:


> Much has being debated about Baptism as a requirement for Salvation, but can Water cleanse you of sin ? if that were so why the did Christ had to shed his blood ?
> 
> 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
> 
> Leviticus 17:11 He explains: "The life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul." Atonement is satisfaction for an offense, resulting in the restoration of a broken relationship. "According to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission" (Hebrews 9:22).
> 
> Under the Old Covenant there was atonement through the blood of sacrificial animals. This prefigured the blood of Christ, who would bring the ultimate sacrifice for sin. "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins" (Hebrews 10:4).
> 
> "Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrews 9:12-14).
> Now we can better understand John's statement: "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
> (Hebrews 13:12). Having been made holy by the blood of Christ, we may boldly approach God's throne of grace.
> 
> The blood of Christ is the ultimate proof of God's love. "God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Romans 5:8,9). He "loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood" (Revelation 1:5).
> 
> The grace of God is demonstrated by the blood of Christ. We are "justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith" (Romans 3:24,25). "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Ephesians 1:7).
> "Conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay here in fear; knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot" (1 Peter 1:17- 19). The church was purchased by the blood of Christ (Acts 20:28).
> "He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins" (Colossians 1:13,14). "Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death' " (Revelation 12:10,11).
> "Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, 'Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?' And I said to him, 'Sir, you know.' So he said to me, 'These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb' " (Revelation 7:13,14). "And they sang a new song, saying: 'You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation' " (Revelation 5:9).
> 
> "If we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin" (1 John 1:7).
> 
> SEEMS TO ME THEN THAT THE BAPTISM AS A RITUAL HAS NO POWER TO SAVE AND THE ONLY LIQUID THAT CAN CLEANSE YOU IS THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB OF GOD,YESHUA HA MASSHIACH , SHALOM
> __________________





Maybe it's time to reread these verses and comments.


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## mtnwoman

>>>>> Baptism is an outward(flesh) expression of an inward cleansing, which I believe Christ's power of the blood can do that without water. 
QUOTE]

Where does that saying come from... An outward expression of an inner faith?

Perhaps, in Acts 8 when Philip was asked by the Ethiopian Eunuch about seeing the water and being baptized, he should have said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest, but we don't really need to stop cause Christ's power of the blood can do that without water. Keep in mind he could have said that... Look at the multiple conversions in the NT all believed and were baptized. 
It might be worthwhile to do a word study on "into." What takes us from being without to being within Christ and his death???[/QUOTE]<<<<

It is the blood of Christ that washes away sin. Not water, if water could wash away sins, everyone who is baptized but still doesn't understand salvation would be saved. And they can still believe there is a Christ but not understand who He is. You have to do both.
You have to understand that it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.
When we take communion are we really eating the flesh and blood of Christ? Inside of us in our hearts we are and we understand what that means, but we aren't physically eating the flesh and blood of Christ with bread and wine, anyone can take communion doing that and it means nothing in their heart, therefore it means nothing. It has to mean something on the inside of us to work 'symbolically' on the outside.

Does God really actually physically circumsize our heart, no He circumsizes our spiritual heart, but you have to comprehend that spiritually.


----------



## Ronnie T

Here's my final comment on the subject, until it comes up again in 3 months.

Jesus' great commission to His apostles, and to us, 
included baptism as part of the process.

When Phillip went to the man in the desert, 
it's obvious that in that short teaching time, 
he taught the man about baptism and it's importance.

In book of Acts, baptism was always taught and expected.

My point, there's no room for anyone to make the
statement:  "you don't have to be baptized to go to heaven".

By the way, I baptized an 80 year old man Wednesday afternoon this week.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Here's my final comment on the subject, until it comes up again in 3 months.
> 
> Jesus' great commission to His apostles, and to us,
> included baptism as part of the process.
> 
> When Phillip went to the man in the desert,
> it's obvious that in that short teaching time,
> he taught the man about baptism and it's importance.
> 
> In book of Acts, baptism was always taught and expected.
> 
> My point, there's no room for anyone to make the
> statement:  "you don't have to be baptized to go to heaven".
> 
> By the way, I baptized an 80 year old man Wednesday afternoon this week.



I know you said it was your last statement, so you can pm if you wanna.

I agree with you on all the things about baptism, I comprehend all the scripture and the purpose and most of that scripture came before the blood on the cross was available....I'd never say to anyone that you don't have to be bapized to go to heaven.

My question to you is this...

Can you tell me that you believe that if you aren't baptized that you won't go to heaven?


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## betweenthehedges

mtnwoman said:


> >>>>> Baptism is an outward(flesh) expression of an inward cleansing, which I believe Christ's power of the blood can do that without water.
> QUOTE]
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps, in Acts 8 when Philip was asked by the Ethiopian Eunuch about seeing the water and being baptized, he should have said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest, but we don't really need to stop cause Christ's power of the blood can do that without water. Keep in mind he could have said that... Look at the multiple conversions in the NT all believed and were baptized.
> It might be worthwhile to do a word study on "into." What takes us from being without to being within Christ and his death???


<<<<

It is the blood of Christ that washes away sin. Not water, if water could wash away sins, everyone who is baptized but still doesn't understand salvation would be saved. And they can still believe there is a Christ but not understand who He is. You have to do both.
You have to understand that it is the blood of Christ that washes away sin.
When we take communion are we really eating the flesh and blood of Christ? Inside of us in our hearts we are and we understand what that means, but we aren't physically eating the flesh and blood of Christ with bread and wine, anyone can take communion doing that and it mean nothing in their heart, therefore it means nothing. It has to mean something on the inside of us to work 'symbolically' on the outside.

Does God really actually phycically circumsize our heart, no He circumsizes our spiritual heart, but you have to comprehend that spiritually.[/QUOTE


We are not PHYSICALLY eating the flesh and blood of Christ's body... 
There is nothing special about the water itself that you are baptized in... Just like you can sit home all day long and drink grape juice and eat unleaven bread with no significance. 
Act 2:6-16
Do you think Paul believe on the road to Damascus... Could he not have said I believe on you lord and prayed?  When he ask, "what shall I do Lord?" in verse 10 the Lord said Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do." What does Acts 22:16 say.... arise and be baptized, and WASH WAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the lord

In your eyes how does one receive the blood of Christ then....???? 
According to Mark 6:3-4 it is through baptism that we put on Christ and baptized into Jesus's death. A necessary step or act??? It would seem so.
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

What personal agenda do people have to tell people that baptism isn't necessary??? That it's merely symbolic...


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## Big7

*Well allrighty then...*



mtnwoman said:


> So death bed/battlefield professions of faith are null and void, due to the fact there is no baptism? And I'm serious I'd like an opinion on this question.



Well allrighty then... I took the time to look up and post all this so please read it.


Hey Miss A ! (Didn’t know if you wanted your name on the forum)

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).
"The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]"

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted"
Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.
As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.
“Following passages” And some more good stuff on the subject may be found HERE:

http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp

Baptism
One of the Seven Sacraments of the Christian Church; frequently called the "first sacrament", the "door of the sacraments", and the "door of the Church". The subject will be treated under the following headings: 

•	Authoritative statement of doctrine 
•	Etymology 
•	Definition 
•	Types 
•	Institution of the sacrament 
•	Matter and form of the sacrament 
•	Conditional baptism 
•	Rebaptism 
•	Necessity of baptism 
•	Substitutes for the sacrament 
•	Unbaptized infants 
•	Effects of baptism 
•	Minister of the sacrament 
•	Recipient of baptism 
•	Adjuncts of baptism 
•	Ceremonies of baptism 
•	Metaphorical baptism 

The above are links inside of the link on EACH subject.
This and more stuff HERE:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02258b.htm

Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic (GO HERE
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html#baptism-II

SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

Scripture
I.	Born Again in Water Baptism 
II.	Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic 
III.	Infant Baptism 
IV.	Pouring and Sprinkling versus Immersion 
V.	Original Sin 
Tradition / Church Fathers
I.	“Born Again” Means Water Baptism 
II.	Infant Baptism 
III.	Original Sin 

The above are links inside of the link on EACH subject.
More on that HERE:
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/baptism.html

Baptism of Desire:
That doesn't mean that only those who have been formally baptized can be saved. From very early on, the Church recognized that there are two other types of baptism besides the baptism of water.

Baptism of Blood:
The baptism of blood is similar to the baptism of desire. It refers to the martyrdom of those believers who were killed for the faith before they had a chance to be baptized. This was a common occurrence in the early centuries of the Church, but also in later times in missionary lands. The baptism of blood has the same effects as the baptism of water.
More on that here:
http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Sac_Baptism.htm

The baptism of blood has the same effects as the baptism of water.
Read all about that HERE:
http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/p/Sac_Baptism.htm

Started to PM you all this… And some more.
Maybe someone else could use the info too…

I'm  on this one. PM me if you like.
Going to Cherokee to trout fish for the weekend
so it will be Monday before I can get back to you.


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## mtnwoman

betweenthehedges;4595140What personal agenda do people have to tell people that baptism isn't necessary??? That it's merely symbolic... 
You still didn't answer my question about the origins of An outward expression of an inner faith?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> There is no personal agenda to tell someone they haven't been baptized, i've said over and over in my posts that I'd never do that and no one should do that....are you reading my entire post or speculating on what you think my intentions are?
> 
> I tried to answer your question about outward and inward. Here I'll try again.
> 
> Do you think water alone washes my sins away....or do you believe something working on the inside of me that causes me to want to be baptized on the outside as a symbol of the buriel and resurrection of Christ. Unless on the inside that you believe you are buried with Christ and resurrected when you are baptized then water on the outside is not going to cause you to believe that nor wash your sins away. You have to believe that first. Baptism doesn't make you believe it.
> 
> And let me ask you, too.
> 
> Do you believe that if someone isn't baptized before dying that they will not go to heaven even though they believe Christ is who He says He is and they have ask for forgiveness of their sins?


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## mtnwoman

Thanks Big7! And thanks for answering my question about getting into heaven with/without water baptism, and thanks for comprehending my posts and my points and my question.

You can use my real name anytime, thanks for being cautious though...LOL.

Hey big boy, be careful trodding on my stomping grounds....LOL.

Do you know if Harmon Den is still 'open'? I believe it's down Nantahala Gorge.


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## BeenHuntn

water, baptism, sprinkling, christening, circumcision, etc has nothing to do with salvation. Christ gets 100% of the glory for saving anyone. you cannot divy up the amount of credit for salvation to mostly Christ and part men. Christ gets it all. He gets all of the credit and glory for salvation. its thru His mercy and grace alone that there is salvation. its a free gift.


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## mtnwoman

BeenHuntn said:


> water, baptism, sprinkling, christening, circumcision, etc has nothing to do with salvation. Christ gets 100% of the glory for saving anyone. you cannot divy up the amount of credit for salvation to mostly Christ and part men. Christ gets it all. He gets all of the credit and glory for salvation. its thru His mercy and grace alone that there is salvation. its a free gift.



Amen!!!!


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## mtnwoman

betweenthehedges said:


> <<<<
> 
> There is nothing special about the water itself that you are baptized in... Just like you can sit home all day long and drink grape juice and eat unleaven bread with no significance. *Right, that's outward.*
> Act 2:6-16
> Do you think Paul believe on the road to Damascus... Could he not have said I believe on you lord and prayed?  When he ask, "what shall I do Lord?" in verse 10 the Lord said Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do." What does Acts 22:16 say.... arise and be baptized, and WASH WAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the lord
> 
> In your eyes how does one receive the blood of Christ then....???? *Thru the heart.*
> According to Mark 6:3-4 it is through baptism that we put on Christ and baptized into Jesus's death. A necessary step or act??? It would seem so.*So thru baptism anyone can  put on Christ? Even though they believe in Christ but do not understand that when they are washed in water they are washed in the blood?*
> Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.*I put on Christ when I let Him take over my heart. Then I was baptized in front of witnesses to show that my sins are washed away BECAUSE of the blood, and that I was sybolically (not phycially) buried and ressurected with Christ (outward showing of an inward acceptance of the cleansing blood of Christ).*
> 
> What personal agenda do people have to tell people that baptism isn't necessary??? That it's merely symbolic...*Because if you tell someone they will be washed in the blood of Christ and they go ewwwwww, ain't gonna happen, then you tell them we use water instead of blood to symbolize the blood and that cleanses us of our sins, symbolizing that it's really the blood that washes our sins away, not the water. Else they will jump in the pool and say yay I'm saved, I'm been washed in the water, I'm good now. *



I was baptized, buried with Christ and resurrected with Him...but it wasn't the water that took my sins away in reality, it was the blood.


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## mtnwoman

How come some of you insist on me answering your questions but you never answer my questions? and i've asked several time a simple question.

Do you believe that someone who believes in Christ and understands who He is and what He did for us, yet was not baptized in water will not enter heaven?
That's a yes or no question.


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I know you said it was your last statement, so you can pm if you wanna.
> 
> I agree with you on all the things about baptism, I comprehend all the scripture and the purpose and most of that scripture came before the blood on the cross was available....I'd never say to anyone that you don't have to be bapized to go to heaven.
> 
> My question to you is this...
> 
> Can you tell me that you believe that if you aren't baptized that you won't go to heaven?



Well, it is the opinion of ol' Ron that if Philip and the other guy had arrived at the water, and Philip had said, "Here's water, lets get you baptized" and the fellow said, "No thanks, I'm going to just trust in the blood of Jesus to save me"  , and at that very time his chariot turned over and killed him, I don't believe he would have gone to heaven.
Here's why.  He had refused the plan of salvation as spelled out by Christ and His apostles.

Now if he died prior to finding water.......... God knows the heart of everyone.  Whatever God did, it would have been the right thing.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Well, it is the opinion of ol' Ron that if Philip and the other guy had arrived at the water, and Philip had said, "Here's water, lets get you baptized" and the fellow said, "No thanks, I'm going to just trust in the blood of Jesus to save me"  , and at that very time his chariot turned over and killed him, I don't believe he would have gone to heaven.
> Here's why.  He had refused the plan of salvation as spelled out by Christ and His apostles.
> 
> Now if he died prior to finding water.......... God knows the heart of everyone.  Whatever God did, it would have been the right thing.



I'm not asking that. I said if someone refused baptism that I didn't know the outcome...but I've never known anyone to refuse baptism for any reason....it sort of comes with the territory.

The scripture you are backing up says you MUST believe and be baptized to enter the kingdom...(even God knowing our heart)
I'm asking you if 'do you believe that not being baptized in water before you die' that's what will prevent you from going to heaven even though you meet all of the other criteria about being saved.

That's only a yes or no....if you believe the scripture to the T or not...that's all I'm asking.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Well, it is the opinion of ol' Ron that if Philip and the other guy had arrived at the water, and Philip had said, "Here's water, lets get you baptized" and the fellow said, "No thanks, I'm going to just trust in the blood of Jesus to save me"  , and at that very time his chariot turned over and killed him, I don't believe he would have gone to heaven.
> Here's why.  He had refused the plan of salvation as spelled out by Christ and His apostles.



So in baptism what does the water represent?

What in reality are we cleansed by? I mean in our spirits and in our hearts are we not saved by the blood? Didn't Jesus take on our sins at the cross? He either did or didn't. 

Water is representation of the blood.
Men baptize us in water, Christ baptizes us in the Holy Spirit because of the blood at the cross, the Holy Spirit came to Jesus when He was baptized in water but the HS came to us after the blood not before. Before that there was only water to wash our sins away. Until the blood came we didn't even understand the death and resurrection. Everyone was baptized in water to remove their sins, they had no idea of what was to come on the cross or anything about that it was really the blood at the cross that takes our sins away.

Of course that's just my understanding and my belief.

If you accept that scripture as being specifically true for today, then it also says we should speak in tongues, same scripture.


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## mtnwoman

RonnieT, it wasn't you who insisted I answer their questions.
But thanks for your replies.


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## betweenthehedges

"Do you believe that if someone isn't baptized before dying that they will not go to heaven even though they believe Christ is who He says He is and they have ask for forgiveness of their sins?" 


Matt 28:18 Jesus was given the authority in heaven and on earth. 
Matt11:25 God is Lord of heaven and earth.

It's not up to me to say if someone is saved or isn't saved.  God will be the ultimate judge of that.... and doesn't need my input or help on that. 
But according to scripture baptism is clearly important.  So, dear old dad/mom/brother/sister/friend or whomever that made that "deathbed confession" will have to answer to God. I think it's important not to get wrapped up with these type of situations, and forgo what is taught in the bible as the way to salvation because "I just can't believe God would do that." Take a look at Uzzah... were his intentions not good? I think God means business when he tells us what we should and shouldn't do.
We should be concerned with our own salvation, and teach people the way to Christ through what is taught in the scripture, not what "I" believe or feel. Let's not forget it's the one and ONLY authority, which was given by God.


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## mtnwoman

Ok let's look at the scripture, the entire scripture....

Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)

 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


so the signs that follow them that believe 16 shall be in verse 17 and 18. By the way it only says that those who do not believe will not be saved, doesn't say a word about those who are not baptized will not be saved.

If 16 is effect then 17 and 18 are in effect. You can't accept 16 and 17 and 18 are not in God's word. People can take one scripture out of context and make a whole new religion...take the JW's for example, who believe works is the way to heaven.

I don't speak in tongues, and I don't handle serpents....those are God's word, right. So I guess I don't believe....do you agree?

Do you speak in tongues which is proof that you believe? If you don't then God says you don't believe.

Don't give me this story about tongues is no longer in effect, it's in the same passage that you're saying that baptism is a MUST for salvation or proof of belief.

Wanna debate scripture? then let's debate scripture, the full scipture.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> water, baptism, sprinkling, christening, circumcision, etc has nothing to do with salvation. Christ gets 100% of the glory for saving anyone. you cannot divy up the amount of credit for salvation to mostly Christ and part men. Christ gets it all. He gets all of the credit and glory for salvation. its thru His mercy and grace alone that there is salvation. its a free gift.





SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM

Scripture
I.	Born Again in Water Baptism 
II.	Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic 
III.	Infant Baptism 
IV.	Pouring and Sprinkling versus Immersion 
V.	Original Sin 
Tradition / Church Fathers
I.	“Born Again” Means Water Baptism 
II.	Infant Baptism 
III.	Original Sin 

Sprinkling, christening, infant baptism, and original sin are no more scriptural than eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and drinking milk to remember Christ's body in communion... 

The point of baptism is that you have HEARD the word of God and BELIEVE it. You are COGNIZATE of the fact that sin is in your life and something must change. You REPENT of your sin and are BAPTIZED for remission of your sins.

You don't have to be baptized to be saved... if you are without sin then it isn't necessary. Who then would fall under that category???


----------



## mtnwoman

betweenthehedges said:


> "Do you believe that if someone isn't baptized before dying that they will not go to heaven even though they believe Christ is who He says He is and they have ask for forgiveness of their sins?"
> 
> 
> Matt 28:18 Jesus was given the authority in heaven and on earth.
> Matt11:25 God is Lord of heaven and earth.
> 
> It's not up to me to say if someone is saved or isn't saved.  God will be the ultimate judge of that.... and doesn't need my input or help on that.
> But according to scripture baptism is clearly important.  So, dear old dad/mom/brother/sister/friend or whomever that made that "deathbed confession" will have to answer to God. I think it's important not to get wrapped up with these type of situations, and forgo what is taught in the bible as the way to salvation because "I just can't believe God would do that."*Let's change that to I don't believe that's what God's word says.* Take a look at Uzzah... were his intentions not good? I think God means business when he tells us what we should and shouldn't do.
> We should be concerned with our own salvation, and teach people the way to Christ through what is taught in the scripture, not what "I" believe or feel. Let's not forget it's the one and ONLY authority, which was given by God.


*Do you also teach people that they will speak in tongues if they truly believe? That's in the same scripture.*

Snake handlers believe in the exact same scripture that tells us we must be baptized, do you handle snakes, too, as proof that you believe? I don't and yet it's in God's word, isn't it? I just believe that water was used to wash away sins before we had the blood, now we know it is really the blood that washes away sin. Are we really washed in the blood in the flesh, or are we washed in the blood in our hearts?
Should we be baptized because God's word says so, of course we should, but will it render our salvation null and void if we are not baptized in water, no it will not. Once you let Christ in your heart, which comes before your comprehension of water baptism, He is not going to leave you because you don't make it to the baptismal.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> The point of baptism is that you have HEARD the word of God and BELIEVE it. You are COGNIZATE of the fact that sin is in your life and something must change. You REPENT of your sin and are BAPTIZED for remission of your sins.
> 
> You don't have to be baptized to be saved... if you are without sin then it isn't necessary. Who then would fall under that category???



It's the blood that we are washed in for the remission of our sins, water can't do that.
I could get baptized every week and still never really be washed in the blood if I didn't comprehend that it's the shed blood of Christ that allows me to be brought into repentence because of His work on the cross. He took my sins to the cross shedding His blood for my sins....may have been easier for Him to just be baptized in water and say now, there that's whatcha do and your sins are gone, saved Him a lot of suffering, eh?

That's why people baptize their children, in case they don't get a chance to get baptized before they die, that does NOT save that child nor does it wash their sins away.

The danger of that is that people think baptism saves them
My ex thinks (like I've said before) that he is saved because he was baptized and he does believe that Jesus is the son of God, but he has not taken on the new man in his heart. The thought of being cleansed in the blood is gross to him, he lives deep in sin, but thinks baptism has saved him and he went to sunday school and He believes Jesus is who He says He is, but my ex has not accepted Jesus into his heart, so in my opinion he is not saved....he is tricked by works.


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM
> 
> Scripture
> I.	Born Again in Water Baptism
> II.	Baptism is Salvific, Not Just Symbolic
> III.	Infant Baptism
> IV.	Pouring and Sprinkling versus Immersion
> V.	Original Sin
> Tradition / Church Fathers
> I.	“Born Again” Means Water Baptism
> II.	Infant Baptism
> III.	Original Sin
> 
> Sprinkling, christening, infant baptism, and original sin are no more scriptural than eating peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and drinking milk to remember Christ's body in communion...
> 
> The point of baptism is that you have HEARD the word of God and BELIEVE it. You are COGNIZATE of the fact that sin is in your life and something must change. You REPENT of your sin and are BAPTIZED for remission of your sins.
> 
> You don't have to be baptized to be saved... if you are without sin then it isn't necessary. Who then would fall under that category???



how dare you call me COGNIZATE?? 

I think we are in agreement over the water not being necessary...


----------



## betweenthehedges

Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)

 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


so the signs that follow them that believe 16 shall be in verse 17 and 18. By the way it only says that those who do not believe will not be saved, doesn't say a word about those who are not baptized will not be saved.

If 16 is effect then 17 and 18 are in effect. You can't accept 16 and 17 and 18 are not in God's word. People can take one scripture out of context and make a whole new religion...take the JW's for example, who believe works is the way to heaven.

I don't speak in tongues, and I don't handle serpents....those are God's word, right. So I guess I don't believe....do you agree?

Do you speak in tongues which is proof that you believe? If you don't then God says you don't believe.

Don't give me this story about tongues is no longer in effect, it's in the same passage that you're saying that baptism is a MUST for salvation or proof of belief.

Wanna debate scripture? then let's debate scripture, the full scipture.[/QUOTE]

You might what to read the 1 Chorinthians 13 the entire chapter, especially 8-10... I think you will find your answer there.





mtnwoman said:


> *Do you also teach people that they will speak in tongues if they truly believe? That's in the same scripture.*
> 
> Snake handlers believe in the exact same scripture that tells us we must be baptized, do you handle snakes, too, as proof that you believe? I don't and yet it's in God's word, isn't it? I just believe that water was used to wash away sins before we had the blood, not the we know it is really the blood that washes away sin. Are we really washed in the blood in the flesh, or are we washed in the blood in our hearts?



I don't know any snake handlers, so I don't know what they believe.


----------



## mtnwoman

BeenHuntn said:


> I think we are in agreement over the water not being necessary...



Is that what he said? I must of misunderstood his post then.


----------



## mtnwoman

betweenthehedges said:


> I don't know any snake handlers, so I don't know what they believe.



Neither do I.
That isn't the question. 
In God's word that says you MUST be believe and be baptized to be saved, then next verse says that proof of your belief is that you speak in tongues and handle serpents. You believe the part about baptism but not the part about speaking in tongues and handling serpents? 

That's my question, what part of that passage I posted do you believe, all or part?


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> It's the blood that we are washed in for the remission of our sins, water can't do that.
> I could get baptized every week and still never really be washed in the blood if I didn't comprehend that it's the shed blood of Christ that allows me to be brought into repentence because of His work on the cross. He took my sins to the cross shedding His blood for my sins....may have been easier for Him to just be baptized in water and say now, there that's whatcha do and your sins are gone, saved Him a lot of suffering, eh?
> 
> That's why people baptize their children, in case they don't get a chance to get baptized before they die, that does NOT save that child nor does it wash their sins away.
> 
> The danger of that is that people think baptism saves them
> My ex thinks (like I've said before) that he is saved because he was baptized and he does believe that Jesus is the son of God, but he has not taken on the new man in his heart. The thought of being cleansed in the blood is gross to him, he lives deep in sin, but thinks baptism has saved him and he went to sunday school and He believes Jesus is who He says He is, but my ex has not accepted Jesus into his heart, so in my opinion he is not saved....he is tricked by works.



Hmmm.... I didn't know babies were such sinner???
I agree,  people shouldn't feel that just because they are baptized, the can live ungodly lives anyway they please. Obviously, you must continue to walk daily with Christ and strive to grow spiritually with him.
That is all I have to say...  Have a great weekend.


----------



## mtnwoman

betweenthehedges said:


> You might what to read the 1 Chorinthians 13 the entire chapter, especially 8-10... I think you will find your answer there.



I understand that scripture. That's what Paul is saying Jesus wants from us.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying about water vs blood....let me back up a bit.

Do you believe water baptism is a requirement to enter heaven?


----------



## betweenthehedges

mtnwoman said:


> Neither do I.
> That isn't the question.
> In God's word that says you MUST be believe and be baptized to be saved, then next verse says that proof of your belief is that you speak in tongues and handle serpents. You believe the part about baptism but not the part about speaking in tongues and handling serpents?
> 
> That's my question, what part of that passage I posted do you believe, all or part?



You might what to read the 1 Chorinthians 13 the entire chapter, especially 8-10.
I think you will find your answer there.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> Hmmm.... I didn't know babies were such sinner???*Sigh, what I was saying is that being baptized as a child, does not save you from your sins as an adult. I'm not trying to argue over everything little thing here.*
> I agree,  people shouldn't feel that just because they are baptized, the can live ungodly lives anyway they please. Obviously, you must continue to walk daily with Christ and strive to grow spiritually with him.
> That is all I have to say...  Have a great weekend.


*Still no answer to my question.*

Everyone wants to post around my question, why is that, it's a yes or no question. Wonder if someone were teetering on the edge of death or salvation would you beat around the 'bush'?


----------



## mtnwoman

betweenthehedges said:


> You might what to read the 1 Chorinthians 13 the entire chapter, especially 8-10.
> I think you will find your answer there.



How does that answer my question to you? It doesn't.

I just posted a response on the scripture, says nothing about baptism, which is my question here.

You people want to post to my posts, but not answer my question. Why is that?


----------



## BeenHuntn

mtnwoman said:


> Is that what he said? I must of misunderstood his post then.



oh, i think i misunderstood his post... oh well.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Do you believe water baptism is a requirement to enter heaven?



Mtnwoman deserves an answer, so I'll jump back in at this point (although I may live to regret it.  )

I believe that union with Christ is a requirement to enter heaven.  We _must_ participate in His death, burial and resurrection.  I believe that water baptism is the point in time when this occurs.    As Paul said in Romans 6:

_Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. 
If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection._


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Mtnwoman deserves an answer, so I'll jump back in at this point (although I may live to regret it.  )
> [/U][/I]



Thanks for being straight up, sheesh like giving birth around here to get an answer...LOL

Ok then may I ask you or someone this question...

Do you believe faith without works is dead? 
For example, the JW's believe that works is also a requirement to prove your faith, which faith/belief is also a requirement to get into heaven.

And do you or anyone practice the rest of the scripture following 'you must believe and be baptized to be saved', regarding tongues and serpents as proof, or do you consider that earlier teachings before the blood was actually understood?
Do you just follow the first scripture and the rest is null and void?

Or can we skip over to later teachings in 1 Corinthians where Christs says what He really expects of us as proof of being saved.

What do y'all think about Christ did it all on the cross except baptize us with water, which is something we must do on our own to enter the kingdom, which we wouldn't do of course if we didn't believe in the first place.

Y'all know we have a lot of lurkers here who have many questions, none of us want to lead them down the wrong road regarding works, sin, blood, forgiveness, etc etc.
That's why I'm continuing in this discussion, not to prove I'm right but so that others can see both sides and then study and seek wisdom of God to understand scripture.

That's all I'm doing...ok? You know good and well the questions will come up from unbelievers, might as well sharpen our swords while we're here, eh? Practice makes perfect.

There is no reason in the 'world' to not be baptized if at all possible, I'm not even concerned with that at all. I'm just wondering how legalistic it is to say you MUST, when Jesus has supposedly done it ALL on the cross for our sins, if we accept that.


----------



## pileit

BeenHuntn said:


> water, baptism, sprinkling, christening, circumcision, etc has nothing to do with salvation. Christ gets 100% of the glory for saving anyone. you cannot divy up the amount of credit for salvation to mostly Christ and part men. Christ gets it all. He gets all of the credit and glory for salvation. its thru His mercy and grace alone that there is salvation. its a free gift.



You are 100% right on this one.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Do you believe faith without works is dead?



Yes, that's what James 2 says.  I'm certainly not a JW, though.




mtnwoman said:


> And do you or anyone practice the rest of the scripture following 'you must believe and be baptized to be saved', regarding tongues and serpents as proof, or do you consider that earlier teachings before the blood was actually understood?



The early church believed that these gifts passed away.  So, no I don't follow that.  (I realize that charismatic gifts are a whole 'nuther subject, though.)




mtnwoman said:


> What do y'all think about Christ did it all on the cross except baptize us with water, which is something we must do on our own to enter the kingdom, which we wouldn't do of course if we didn't believe in the first place.



I think Christ did it all on the cross.  There are no exceptions.  There is nothing I can do to merit salvation.  Baptism is merely the point in time when we participate in what Jesus "did":  He died, He was buried, and He was resurrected.  I believe the clearest expression of this is in Romans 6.




mtnwoman said:


> Y'all know we have a lot of lurkers here who have many questions, none of us want to lead them down the wrong road regarding works, sin, blood, forgiveness, etc etc.
> That's why I'm continuing in this discussion, not to prove I'm right but so that others can see both sides and then study and seek wisdom of God to understand scripture.
> 
> That's all I'm doing...ok? You know good and well the questions will come up from unbelievers, might as well sharpen our swords while we're here, eh? Practice makes perfect.



I appreciate the spirit in which you ask the questions.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I'm not asking that. I said if someone refused baptism that I didn't know the outcome...but I've never known anyone to refuse baptism for any reason....it sort of comes with the territory.
> 
> The scripture you are backing up says you MUST believe and be baptized to enter the kingdom...(even God knowing our heart)
> I'm asking you if 'do you believe that not being baptized in water before you die' that's what will prevent you from going to heaven even though you meet all of the other criteria about being saved.
> 
> That's only a yes or no....if you believe the scripture to the T or not...that's all I'm asking.




Yes.  I believe those scriptures to a T.
I believe I am save through the grace of God.......
I don't believe I earn my salvation.
And I believe I must be baptized in order for God to wash me in that gift of His.

Please, if anyone does not believe that God intended for new believers to be baptized as a part of the salvation process, read the following scriptures.

If you still don't understand my point, there really isn't anything else to be said.

Matthew 3:16
After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,

Mark 16:16
" He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:41
So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Acts 8:12
But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.

Acts 22:16
'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'

Romans 6:4
Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.

Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Colossians 2:11-13
11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 
12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 

1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  I believe those scriptures to a T.
> I believe I am save through the grace of God.......
> I don't believe I earn my salvation.
> And I believe I must be baptized in order for God to wash me in that gift of His.
> 
> Please, if anyone does not believe that God intended for new believers to be baptized as a part of the salvation process, read the following scriptures.
> 
> If you still don't understand my point, there really isn't anything else to be said.
> 
> Matthew 3:16
> After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him,
> 
> Mark 16:16
> " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Acts 2:41
> So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
> 
> Acts 8:12
> But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike.
> 
> Acts 22:16
> 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
> 
> Romans 6:4
> Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 
> Galatians 3:27
> For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
> 
> Colossians 2:11-13
> 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
> 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:21
> Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  I believe those scriptures to a T.
> I believe I am save through the grace of God.......
> I don't believe I earn my salvation.
> And I believe I must be baptized in order for God to wash me in that gift of His.
> 
> Please, if anyone does not believe that God intended for new believers to be baptized as a part of the salvation process, read the following scriptures.
> 
> If you still don't understand my point, there really isn't anything else to be said.
> 
> Matthew 3:16
> After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, *Jesus was at that time baptized in the Holy Spirit....we didn't yet have the blood of Christ that takes away the sin of the world, the physical world not the spiritual world.*
> 
> Mark 16:16
> " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.*It still only says if you disbelieve you are condemned...doesn't say if you aren't baptized you are condemned. Meaning that baptism alone does not save you. Please read exactly what it says. *
> 
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them, " Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.*Mark 1:8
> I indeed have baptized you with water: but He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
> Mark 1:7-9 (in Context) Mark 1 (Whole Chapter)
> Acts 1:5
> For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
> *
> 
> Acts 2:41
> So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.*You left out some important verses...Acts 2...all the verses must be applied, not just one. What about prophesying? (King James Version)
> 
> Acts 2
> 1And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
> 
> 2And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
> 
> 3And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
> 
> 4And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
> 
> 5And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
> 
> 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
> 
> 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
> 
> 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
> 
> 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia,
> 
> 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,
> 
> 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.
> 
> 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
> 
> 13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
> 
> 14But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
> 
> 15For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
> 
> 16But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
> 
> 17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
> 
> 18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
> 
> 19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
> 
> 20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
> 
> 21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 
> 22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
> 
> 23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
> 
> 24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
> 
> 25For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:
> 
> 26Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
> 
> 27Because thou wilt not leave my soul in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
> 
> 28Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
> 
> 29Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
> 
> 30Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
> 
> 31He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, neither his flesh did see corruption.
> 
> 32This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
> 
> 33Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
> 
> 34For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
> 
> 35Until I make thy foes thy footstool.
> 
> 36Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
> 
> 37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
> 
> 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
> 
> 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
> 
> 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
> 
> 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.
> 
> 43And fear came upon every soul: and many wonders and signs were done by the apostles.
> 
> 44And all that believed were together, and had all things common;
> 
> 45And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.
> 
> 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,
> 
> 47Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
> 
> 
> King James Version (KJV)*
> 
> Acts 8:12
> But when they believed Philip preaching the good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were being baptized, men and women alike. *Acts 8:14-22 (King James Version)  You left out some stuff...
> 
> 14Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
> 
> 15Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
> 
> 16(For as yet he(the Holy Spirit) was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
> 
> 17Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. in water baptism they did not receive the HS.
> 
> 18And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
> 
> 19Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 20But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
> 
> 21Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
> 
> 22Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
> 
> 
> *
> 
> Acts 22:16
> 'Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'
> 
> Romans 6:4
> Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
> 
> Galatians 3:27
> For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
> 
> Colossians 2:11-13
> 11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
> 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
> 
> 1 Peter 3:21
> Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,



Thanks for posting RonnieT.

I could go on, I guess, but I'm tired. Jesus gave us an example of washing our sins away with water, an example of what was to come, buried with Him and resurrected into a new man. He received the HS at that time, we do not during water baptism. However no one even understood being washed in the blood at that time, so He used water to show them that His blood would later wash their sins away. Being washed in water is not enough, being washed in the blood by believing that the blood is what saves us IS what saves us...not the physical washing in water.

Anyway like I said, I'm tired waxing faint....no one is saved by water baptism, you are saved by blood baptism, receiving the HS....using water as a catalyst between natural and superanatural....water alone doesn't transform you, it's the supernatural baptism in the blood of Christ that transform you. You can wash all you want in water, only Christ received the HS by that, because no one would've understand at His baptism what washed in His blood would mean.

I'll come back later and respond to the other verses you used.

Blessings my brother.
In Him I Remain
Annie


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> If you still don't understand my point, there really isn't anything else to be said.



Ah come on now, there's plenty to be said. You do a great job of saying it, too.

Love you!!


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## Inthegarge

Simple Question.. scripture says in Eph 4:4-5  "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, "one baptism." I Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit". Which is the "one baptism" ?? The water baptism of man or the spirit baptism of the Holy Spirit  ???  RW


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## Inthegarge

ergo: water baptism is an outward symbol of the spiritual baptism that takes place at salvation. Was the thief on the cross baptized ?? Is he in heaven or did Jesus lie to him ?? Water baptism shows a willingness to be obedient to Christ. Water baptism was how the Jewish people/and others identified outwardly with Christ. It is also why they were persecuted and martyred. Remember Saul who became Paul ???  RW


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## mtnwoman

Inthegarge said:


> ergo: water baptism is an outward symbol of the spiritual baptism that takes place at salvation. Was the thief on the cross baptized ?? Is he in heaven or did Jesus lie to him ?? Water baptism shows a willingness to be obedient to Christ. Water baptism was how the Jewish people/and others identified outwardly with Christ. It is also why they were persecuted and martyred. Remember Saul who became Paul ???  RW



Thanks, I agree.

I think back about how God let the Jews wander around the desert for 40yrs, only a 12 mile hike to the promised land. It took Him 40yrs to 'breed' out the captive mentality the Jews had. Could we possibly believe that the Jewish diciples of Jesus still have some of the old law instilled in them? of course they did. You must do this and that to be accepted by God.
Timothy still thought that women should be submissive to their husband no matter what...no matter if the husband was a drug dealer or a pimp....what he says goes. You become submissive to your husband IF he loves you like Christ loves the church, not under any other circumstances.

Jesus had to detox the disciples from the old ways. Just like Peter still didn't want to preach to gentiles the dirty dogs....Jesus told Him, what I call clean (now) is clean. The OT, the law, legalism, works is gone. It's by grace you are saved and nothing else.
If it only took water to save us, or tithing to save us, or submissiveness to our husbands or any works, then Jesus died on the cross for naught....He did it all...all for our salvation, NOTHING we can do will buy/get our salvation. Only believing in the blood of Christ will cover our sins and wash us clean. Meeting the HS moves you from acts in the flesh to acts in the spirit. Acts in the flesh are works and symbolism.


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## mtnwoman

Inthegarge said:


> Simple Question.. scripture says in Eph 4:4-5  "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, "one baptism." I Cor 12:13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free and have all been made to drink into one Spirit". Which is the "one baptism" ?? The water baptism of man or the spirit baptism of the Holy Spirit  ???  RW



When we are young we are baptized in water to wash our sins away because that's what we can understand....when we become a man and put away our child like mindset we are washed in the blood, because that's when we can understand that being washed in the blood baptizes us with the HS. 

Baptism in water is symbolic of being buried with Christ and His blood and resurrected into a new man, because of the blood.


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> When we are young we are baptized in water to wash our sins away because that's what we can understand....when we become a man and put away our child like mindset we are washed in the blood, because that's when we can understand that being washed in the blood baptizes us with the HS.
> 
> Baptism in water is symbolic of being buried with Christ and His blood and resurrected into a new man, because of the blood.



What you say sounds like sweet music.
Problem, it isn't bible-based.

Look back at the conversion of Paul(Saul).
It seems more than likely that it is during water baptism
that Jesus' blood cleanses us from sins.


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## Ronnie T

Annie,
Please explain the following scripture to me.
Both are speaking of water baptism.


Galatians 3:27
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


1 Peter 3:21
Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-- not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


----------



## Inthegarge

Ronnie T said:


> What you say sounds like sweet music.
> Problem, it isn't bible-based.
> 
> Look back at the conversion of Paul(Saul).
> It seems more than likely that it is during water baptism
> that Jesus' blood cleanses us from sins.



Please explain why the verses given aren't "Bible based"..
It amazes me how man always thinks he has to have part in something for it to be correct. Salvation is a spiritual event (baptism by the Holy Spirit) NOT physical (Water baptism by a man) . Again I ask..Was the thief on the cross saved or not ??  Please provide scripture.....Thx RW


----------



## mtnwoman

Galatians 3
  25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 

 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. *What does this mean? It means what it says, by faith we are all children of God.*

 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. *Who was Paul talking to here? A well versed bible scholar, no he was talking to people who once lived by works and explaining to them, that because they believed and were baptized (and it doesn't mention water baptism), that they have put on Christ. And it didn't say ONLY you who have been baptized. *

 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. *If we are all one in Christ why do some people still believe that women can't preach to men? He's making a point that now there is no difference because we are all the same in Christ. *

 29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


King James Version (KJV)


----------



## mtnwoman

Pulling this one verse out of context, an entire religion was created....who believes this verse to be true standing alone?

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie,

You believe this entire text to a T? am I correct?

Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


----------



## Ronnie T

I believe everything the Bible teaches.  I believe every single word was written with purpose.  I believe God's Holy Spirit was a part of every word that was written.
I don't believe any thing was written to be complicated and difficult to understand.
I believe that every sentence of the Bible can be used in teaching and that no sentence will upset another sentence.

I believe that one day the world was in complete, total sin and there was nothing they could do about it on their own.  And God allowed, no, God purposed, that His Son would make it possible for all those evil, sinful people to return to Him.

I believe it was through God's grace and mercy that we were given this life as Christ's disciples.
I believe Christ when He said His blood would pay the price for our sins.
I also believe Christ when He included water baptism in salvation.
I believe Gal 3:27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  I believe that when Paul told those Christian that, he could very well have said:  "Ronnie, when you were baptized into Christ, you put on Christ."  I "put on Christ".  I chose Christ.  I made a commitment.  God did everything else.

I believe that when Jesus said:  "Go into all the world a teach the Gospel.  Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, those who believe not shall be condemned."
I believe that Jesus included baptism in that sentence for a reason.
He didn't put it there so that I or someone else might try to take it out.

I believe every word of the Gospel and all that comes with it.
I don't feel the need to ignore one part just so the other part can remain what I was taught.

There are no "trick" verses.  Believing in the necessity of baptism doesn't take away from the grace and mercy of God.  In fact, it completes it.


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## mtnwoman

Ephesians 2:7-9 (King James Version)

 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 

 8For by *grace* are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 

 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

My ex who I don't believe is saved says...'hey I ain't no heathen, I've been baptized'...and he resents me asking him.

Or hey, how many houses were you able to get into today with your door to door works?

Or how many people did your preacher baptize last week( I've honestly found myself prideful because of the number of baptisms at our church) so that many people were saved? uh...maybe, I hope someone made sure before hand.

Our pastor would not baptize my 15 yr old granddaughter, because she couldn't answer his questions about what salvation meant. She thought she'd just go ahead and get baptized and get it over with.....as if first comes baptism and then you get it about salvation.

Maybe I'm way off base, but I've been baptized so I guess I'm in.
If I hadn't been baptized I'd want to be as a public profession in front of others as witnesses of my faith in Christ. He came to me first, He came into my heart first, I accepted Him and His sin cleansing bloodshed on the cross, then I was baptized. I was already one with Christ before I was baptized.

I know, buried with Christ and resurrected with Him, but the water didn't do that, I had to understand what baptism meant before I did it, it didn't come to me or happen to me during or after baptism...I already knew and accepted it before I was baptized, that's why I was baptized. My intention was never to be baptized and then I'd be saved.


----------



## mtnwoman

mtnwoman said:


> Ronnie,
> 
> You believe this entire text to a T? am I correct?
> 
> Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)
> 
> 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
> 
> 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> 
> 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



Ronnie, do you have any of these signs to prove you believe? and if you don't does it mean you don't believe? 

I've ask this several times, it follows the very verse you are adament about.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Pulling this one verse out of context, an entire religion was created....who believes this verse to be true standing alone?
> 
> James 2:17
> Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.



This verse is saying............

Where there is faith, there will be works.
Real faith will always produce works.
If you breath in, you will breath out.
If you have faith, you will have works.
It's just gonna happen.
You don't even have to try.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> I believe that when Jesus said:  "Go into all the world a teach the Gospel.  Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved, those who believe not shall be condemned."
> I believe that Jesus included baptism in that sentence for a reason.
> He didn't put it there so that I or someone else might try to take it out.


Reread the verse....first of all have you been into ALL the world to preach the gospel? I haven't...

It says 'those who do believe not, are condemned'. Doesn't say those who do not believe or are not baptized are condemned.

 He's saying  you have to believe along with baptism....not believing is what will condemn you even if you are baptized.
Don't you think the diciples probably baptized hundreds of people who DID NOT believe or didn't even comprehend enough to believe, but yet were baptized? Do we do that today, by sprinkling/baptizing our small children? But they must believe along with baptism or without belief be condemned.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Ronnie,
> 
> You believe this entire text to a T? am I correct?
> 
> Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)
> 
> 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
> 
> 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> 
> 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



Yes, to a T.
Verse 17- "follow them that believe"  Peter preached the first gospel sermon in Acts 2.  All the apostles were filled with HS.  From that day forward, believers were given these special gifts BY the apostles.
Not everyone had the same gifts.  Not everyone could speak in tongues.  I think 1 Cor 13 and 14 point that out.
As far as the snakes.  The Bible says it happened, so it happened.  Personally, I don't mess with snakes.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> This verse is saying............*Exactly, that's my point...amen hallelujah!!!! But if you read the verse alone that's not what it says, now is it?....you know what it says because you use OTHER scripture with it....just like you posted here...that verse doesn't say all that does it? But we do know from using other verses what it means.*
> 
> Where there is faith, there will be works.
> Real faith will always produce works.
> If you breath in, you will breath out.
> If you have faith, you will have works.
> It's just gonna happen.
> You don't even have to try.



We know that but try getting the JW's to comprehend that pulling a single verse out of context, standing alone, is something that you just can't do.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Reread the verse....first of all have you been into ALL the world to preach the gospel? I haven't...
> 
> It says 'those who do believe not, are condemned'. Doesn't say those who do not believe or are not baptized are condemned.
> 
> He's saying  you have to believe along with baptism....not believing is what will condemn you even if you are baptized.
> Don't you think the diciples probably baptized hundreds of people who DID NOT believe but yet were baptized? Do we do that today, by sprinkling our children? But they must believe along with baptism or without belief be condemned.



Annie, Jesus is saying exactly what He said.
"Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved".
Believing and baptized.
Both.

I believe if Jesus didn't want baptism in that sentence, it wouldn't be there.

You're complicating the simple.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Yes, to a T.
> Verse 17- "follow them that believe"  Peter preached the first gospel sermon in Acts 2.  All the apostles were filled with HS.  From that day forward, believers were given these special gifts BY the apostles.
> Not everyone had the same gifts.  Not everyone could speak in tongues.  I think 1 Cor 13 and 14 point that out.
> As far as the snakes.  The Bible says it happened, so it happened.  Personally, I don't mess with snakes.



Come on, Ronnie you'd mess with snakes if you believed, that's what it says isn't it? 

I know not everyone had the same gifts, it says so right there, but it says that these signs will follow you if you believe right after it tells you if you believe you need to get baptized. 
How can you choose baptizm and overlook the other things that prove you believe, only one verse away?

I believed they did it too, I believe they were baptized...but can't say one verse proves you believe and leave out the other verses. 

Picking and choosing a verse here and there about baptism is worthless without understanding the entire text about believing...you just can't do it, or at least you shouldn't.

How are you gonna answer an unbeliever when he reads that scripture and you say well I believe the baptism part but the other doesn't apply to me?


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Annie, Jesus is saying exactly what He said.
> "Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved".
> Believing and baptized.
> Both.
> 
> I believe if Jesus didn't want baptism in that sentence, it wouldn't be there.
> 
> You're complicating the simple.



rt, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Annie, Jesus is saying exactly what He said.
> "Those who believe and are baptized shall be saved".
> Believing and baptized.
> Both.
> 
> I believe if Jesus didn't want baptism in that sentence, it wouldn't be there.
> 
> You're complicating the simple.



Ok....did Jesus say that you'd be condemned if you weren't baptized? No He said you'd be condemned if you didn't believe.
Did He say in 'that' scripture that you must believe and be baptized in water?
Don't skip to another scripture let's stick with this one, we can beat around the bible all day picking and choosing verses that we believe proves we are right.

I'm not complicating anything


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Reread the verse....first of all have you been into ALL the world to preach the gospel? I haven't...
> 
> It says 'those who do believe not, are condemned'. Doesn't say those who do not believe or are not baptized are condemned.
> 
> He's saying  you have to believe along with baptism....not believing is what will condemn you even if you are baptized.
> Don't you think the diciples probably baptized hundreds of people who DID NOT believe but yet were baptized? Do we do that today, by sprinkling our children? But they must believe along with baptism or without belief be condemned.



Yes.
*Believing and baptism will get you saved.
*Not believing will condemn you.


----------



## mtnwoman

BeenHuntn said:


> rt, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?



yes because he understood the blood that washed his sins away....and Jesus said he would be with Him, even without water baptism.

Can Jesus then pick and choose whom He wants to save with or without baptizm, yes He can, it's not our CALL.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.
> *Believing and baptism will get you saved.
> *Not believing will condemn you.



Could we just let Jesus' blood save us and use water as an expression of our belief instead of saying baptism will save you?

Were you saved before you were baptized? I was....or I wouldn't have understood the baptism.

That very scripture that you answered yes to, should show you that not being baptized is not what will condemn you, so it isn't a must....is it a command? yes, right along going into all the world...but by His grace and mercy His Father gave us Jesus as a gift and all we have to do is except it...that's it...nothing else.

Should we do other things, of course we should, we all know that. I've been baptized, I'm sure I was led to be baptized since I had been saved....but that's not what saved me.


Oh and let me add, my baptism was a joyful day for me even at 12, it was a supernatural experience, but only because I knew what it meant. I had accepted that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected for my sins, and the baptism physically made me physically feel that, but because I understood it spiritually, my spirit understood it, too. However I understood what it meant before I ever got in the water, buried with Christ and resurrected with Him, I was already dead to sin when I accepted His grace and mercy before my baptism and had already ask for His forgiveness and had received it 2000 yrs ago at the cross.


----------



## BeenHuntn

mtnwoman said:


> yes because he understood the blood that washed his sins away....and Jesus said he would be with Him, even without water baptism.
> 
> Can Jesus then pick and choose whom He wants to save with or without baptizm, yes He can, it's not our CALL.



is your name, rt???     j/k...


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> rt, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?



I assume he did.
Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus in paradise.

The thief is an interesting story.
It certainly shows the power of Jesus Christ cause I certainly believe Jesus had the power to save this man as He hung there on the cross.

But this thief doesn't belong in a discussion of the church.  The church had not been established at that time.
Jesus had not died on the cross.
Jesus' blood had not been shed.
Jesus had not instituted New Testament baptism.  Jesus had not issued his commission to His apostles.

Isn't it something, saved the thief on the cross, but killed Ananias and his wife for lying about a land deal.
And, from heaven, watched as Stephen was stoned for his faith.

Figure it all out????????????????
I've stopped trying to do that.  After 42 years of reading and study, I started just doing what it says and stopped  trying to use my poor human brain so much.


----------



## mtnwoman

Thank you Lord for letting us debate this without beating each other to a pulp...give me wisdom, too, Lord. If I have scales on my eyes, please let them fall away.

Thanks everyone for your patience with me, and especially my friend Ronnie who is my enabler...LOL.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> After 42 years of reading and study, I started just doing what it says and stopped  trying to use my poor human brain so much.



You gotta a good brain Ronnie....and we're exercising it to keep it that way...me, too.
Plus I'm trying to sharpen my sword, searching and debating scripture polishes it up a bit, ya know?


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Could we just let Jesus' blood save us and use water as an expression of our belief instead of saying baptism will save you?No, because that's not what Jesus said
> 
> Were you saved before you were baptized? I was....or I wouldn't have understood the baptism.
> Now, Annie, how in the world do you know you were saved before you were baptized?  And if you didn't understand, you were in the same boat as the folks in the church at Rome.  Read the early part of Romans chap 6.  Paul told them that they had not understood their baptism, but God still did His work in it.
> 
> That very scripture that you answered yes to, should show you that not being baptized is not what will condemn you, so it isn't a must....is it a command?Careful now.  Look at what Jesus said.  "If they believe and are baptized they will be saved."  Jesus didn't have to put it there.  But He did, and you better leave it there.
> yes, right along going into all the world...but by His grace and mercy His Father gave us Jesus as a gift and all we have to do is except it...that's it...nothing else.Your preconceived notions are making it hard for you to accept this teaching.
> 
> Should we do other things, of course we should, we all know that. I've been baptized, I'm sure I was led to be baptized since I had been saved....but that's not what saved me.You're right.  Jesus Christ saved you.  He saved you in your baptism.
> 
> 
> Oh and let me add, my baptism was a joyful day for me even at 12, it was a supernatural experience, but only because I knew what it meant. I had accepted that Jesus died, was buried and resurrected for my sins, and the baptism physically made me physically feel that, but because I understood it spiritually, my spirit understood it, too. However I understood what it meant before I ever got in the water, buried with Christ and resurrected with Him, I was already dead to sin when I accepted His grace and mercy before my baptism and had already ask for His forgiveness and had received it 2000 yrs ago at the cross.



Unfortunately, I don't have that clear of a memory of my baptism.  God's done a lot to me since that day.  Lots of disciplining.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it something, saved the thief on the cross, but killed Ananias and his wife for lying about a land deal.
> And, from heaven, watched as Stephen was stoned for his faith.
> 
> Figure it all out????????????????
> I've stopped trying to do that.  After 42 years of reading and study, I started just doing what it says and stopped  trying to use my poor human brain so much.



But Jesus had been baptized in water by that time, and that's the example He wants us to use, isn't it? The washing away of our sins....not down the Jordan but down the cross.
And yes by the time Jesus got on the cross, He had received a horrendous blood letting.

The thief understood who Jesus was and what He was doing and that's why he was saved.


----------



## Lead Poison

Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.

Accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior is the ONLY requirement. 

Peace to all.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> You gotta a good brain Ronnie....and we're exercising it to keep it that way...me, too.
> Plus I'm trying to sharpen my sword, searching and debating scripture polishes it up a bit, ya know?



Actually, it's nice to talk Bible without the...... you know who jumping into the mix.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Unfortunately, I don't have that clear of a memory of my baptism.  God's done a lot to me since that day.  Lots of disciplining.



Well I went through a lot of that, too...later on. But I went thru a lot of things that should've left me braindead practically, but it was recalled to my memory when Christ came and retrieved His lost lamb. I also remember as soon as I was baptized I wanted to be a missionary like Lottie Moon...I never accomplished that, overseas, anyway.


----------



## Ronnie T

Lead Poison said:


> Baptism is not a requirement for salvation.Even if Jesus said it was??????????????
> 
> Accepting Jesus as one's Lord and Savior is the ONLY requirement.
> 
> Peace to all.



So what do I have to do?  Get the white-out and delete all those pesky verses?


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Actually, it's nice to talk Bible without the...... you know who jumping into the mix.



Amen and hallelujah to that! That's what I was thanking God for, too. Funny how He's right on time, to back the old debil outta play.

Some people don't even comprehend that's it's not even a he's right or wrong or she's right or wrong issue...it's that we are struggling to understand the Word, together.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> So what do I have to do?  Get the white-out and delete all those pesky verses?



Well not exactly.....LOL....whiting even one verse out would change the whole meaning of the entire text.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> I assume he did.
> Jesus told him that he would be with Jesus in paradise.
> 
> The thief is an interesting story.
> It certainly shows the power of Jesus Christ cause I certainly believe Jesus had the power to save this man as He hung there on the cross.
> 
> But this thief doesn't belong in a discussion of the church.  The church had not been established at that time.
> Jesus had not died on the cross.
> Jesus' blood had not been shed.
> Jesus had not instituted New Testament baptism.  Jesus had not issued his commission to His apostles.
> 
> Isn't it something, saved the thief on the cross, but killed Ananias and his wife for lying about a land deal.
> And, from heaven, watched as Stephen was stoned for his faith.
> 
> Figure it all out????????????????
> I've stopped trying to do that.  After 42 years of reading and study, I started just doing what it says and stopped  trying to use my poor human brain so much.




if Jesus says that the thief was to go to heaven than you could bet the universe that he did go to heaven... no need to assume he did.

i think the discussion here is about Christ and not "the church".  baptism is about Christ, not the church.

if the church had not been established yet, how could the "Head of the Church" be born, live, teach and be crucified and yet the church which He founded had not been established yet?  if you start a bass club from scratch... does the club not actually exist until after your death??  the club starts when you start it...  the church is made up of every person who will go to or eventually go to heaven. thats the Body of Christ. that is the church.  Abraham is in this church.  lazarus. mary, martha, jacob, joseph, etc are all part of the church...  

Jesus' blood was shed when He was on the cross...   Jesus did not start baptisms... JTB did, before Jesus did.  when JTB started baptizing with water it was a foreshadowing of Christ coming to baptize with the Holy Spirit.  you know that God foreshadows everything... 

Scripture interprets Scripture. we know the thief went to heaven because Jesus said He would... he was not baptized therefore baptism is not necessary for salvation.

many people were "justified" in the old testament and they werent baptized.  therefore baptism is not necessary for salvation.

if Gilligan had been shipwrecked with his Bible instead of the Skipper... and believed in Christ by reading his Bible... and then died without baptism... wouldnt he go to heaven... of course...

Christ is necessary.  the Holy Spirit is necessary and God too...  but not a ritual...  

but like you after 42 years i am trying to "follow" and to be a doer of the Word...


----------



## mtnwoman

I think this has been a wonderful debate on both sides. There is enough information here on both sides, I hope, to help someone understand baptism and what it means regarding our salvation.

I use a lot of words to say a little...LOL


aka Ramblin' Rose....
and I can yodel, too.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> if Jesus says that the thief was to go to heaven than you could bet the universe that he did go to heaven... no need to assume he did.
> 
> i think the discussion here is about Christ and not "the church".  baptism is about Christ, not the church.
> 
> if the church had not been established yet, how could the "Head of the Church" be born, live, teach and be crucified and yet the church which He founded had not been established yet?  if you start a bass club from scratch... does the club not actually exist until after your death??  the club starts when you start it...  the church is made up of every person who will go to or eventually go to heaven. thats the Body of Christ. that is the church.  Abraham is in this church.  lazarus. mary, martha, jacob, joseph, etc are all part of the church...
> 
> Jesus' blood was shed when He was on the cross...   Jesus did not start baptisms... JTB did, before Jesus did.  when JTB started baptizing with water it was a foreshadowing of Christ coming to baptize with the Holy Spirit.  you know that God foreshadows everything...
> 
> Scripture interprets Scripture. we know the thief went to heaven because Jesus said He would... he was not baptized therefore baptism is not necessary for salvation.
> 
> many people were "justified" in the old testament and they werent baptized.  therefore baptism is not necessary for salvation.
> 
> if Gilligan had been shipwrecked with his Bible instead of the Skipper... and believed in Christ by reading his Bible... and then died without baptism... wouldnt he go to heaven... of course...
> 
> Christ is necessary.  the Holy Spirit is necessary and God too...  but not a ritual...
> 
> but like you after 42 years i am trying to "follow" and to be a doer of the Word...



Like I said, I just read it and do it.

And as for the ritual not being necessary, it became necessary when my Lord and Savior said it was necessary.
I don't care what Calvin, Luther, or Jim Jones says.  If Jesus and His apostles taught it.......... I do it.  I teach it.
See, if you come to me looking for salvation in Jesus, you're gonna end up getting baptized very quickly, or you're going to refuse it.
Just like they did back then.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Like I said, I just read it and do it.
> 
> And as for the ritual not being necessary, it became necessary when my Lord and Savior said it was necessary.
> I don't care what Calvin, Luther, or Jim Jones says.  If Jesus and His apostles taught it.......... I do it.  I teach it.
> See, if you come to me looking for salvation in Jesus, you're gonna end up getting baptized very quickly, or you're going to refuse it.
> Just like they did back then.




i was baptized as a baby. or sprinkled.  basically i got my forehead cleaned...  

after many years of being atheist and then in the worlds most evil cult... i read a book that God used to open my eyes...  i got down my knees and cried like a baby. repented and my life changed. i was a new creature. i was saved and i felt it. i felt the Holy spirit.  i wasnt baptized for about 2 years... after my baptism, there was nothing knew or changed...

the regeneration came when i repented and believed.  my whole world changed.    so i am a firm believer in baptism. a believers baptism... i guess i am one of those re-baptizers... i am not against baptism in any way...  it was taught and commanded so i believe it. but i believe it falls in the category with the Lords Supper....  just a symbolic display of What Christ did for us...

anyway... for what its worth... i am pro baptism...


----------



## mtnwoman

BeenHuntn said:


> i was baptized as a baby. or sprinkled.  basically i got my forehead cleaned...
> 
> after many years of being atheist and then in the worlds most evil cult... i read a book that God used to open my eyes...  i got down my knees and cried like a baby. repented and my life changed. i was a new creature. i was saved and i felt it. i felt the Holy spirit.  i wasnt baptized for about 2 years... after my baptism, there was nothing knew or changed...
> 
> the regeneration came when i repented and believed.  my whole world changed.    so i am a firm believer in baptism. a believers baptism... i guess i am one of those re-baptizers... i am not against baptism in any way... i am pro baptism. it was taught so i believe it. but i believe it falls in the category of the Lords Supper....  just a symbolic display of What Christ did for us...
> 
> anyway... for what its worth... i am pro baptism...



Hey great testimony!! Loved it.
Glad I'll see you in heaven.

I don't know anyone anti baptism or anyone who ever refused it...guess there may be some.

God knows our hearts, we're all good to go!


----------



## BeenHuntn

mtnwoman said:


> Hey great testimony!! Loved it.
> Glad I'll see you in heaven.
> 
> I don't know anyone anti baptism or anyone who ever refused it...guess there may be some.
> 
> God knows our hearts, we're all good to go!



God is great and heaven will be AWESOME!!!


----------



## centerpin fan

In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be "born of water and the Spirit".  Compare that with the Great Commission in Mt 28 and Mk 16:16 and the conversion accounts in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, and Acts 22.

Also, read the writings of the 2nd and 3rd century Christians.  The belief that baptism is just symbolic of what has already happened is UNKNOWN to them.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> In John 3, Jesus told Nicodemus that one must be "born of water and the Spirit".  Compare that with the Great Commission in Mt 28 and Mk 16:16 and the conversion accounts in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, and Acts 22.
> 
> Also, read the writings of the 2nd and 3rd century Christians.  The belief that baptism is just symbolic of what has already happened is UNKNOWN to them.





when Jesus said you must be born of water and the spirit He was saying that being born of water is the first birth, the natural birth. as a baby...  then when older you are born again.  you cant be born again unless you are born the first time as a baby.  not by baptism.  water meant natural birth...

cf, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?  lazarus? abraham?  moses? were they baptized? no... but they still were saved.

if you say baptism is a necessity for salvation... what do you do with these verses? salvation is discussed but not baptism.

Acts 13:39
Rom 3:24
Rom 3:28
Rom 3:30
Rom 4:5
Rom 5:1
Rom 5:9
Rom 5:16
Rom 8:30
Rom 8:33
1 Cor 6:11
Gal 2:16
Gal 3:18
Gal 3:24
Mark 16:16
Luke 7:50
Luke 8:12
Luke 18:42
John 10:9
Acts 16:31


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Also, read the writings of the 2nd and 3rd century Christians.  The belief that baptism is just symbolic of what has already happened is UNKNOWN to them.



Makes no sense to me.....

Ok let's see, in the 2nd and 3rd century, Christ hadn't died and been resurrected? That already happened. So in the 2nd and 3rd century,when they baptized someone they didn't know it was because of the death and ressurection of Christ 2 or 3 hundreds years before.?

Well maybe that's what I'm saying, if they didn't comprehend it then, we are now in a turtle parade to see which cames first, salvation or baptism. or somebody is, not me, I already know.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> when Jesus said you must be born of water and the spirit He was saying that being born of water is the first birth, the natural birth. as a baby...  then when older you are born again.  you cant be born again unless you are born the first time as a baby.  not by baptism.  water meant natural birth...
> 
> cf, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?  lazarus? abraham?  moses? were they baptized? no... but they still were saved.
> 
> if you say baptism is a necessity for salvation... what do you do with these verses? salvation is discussed but not baptism.
> 
> Acts 13:39
> Rom 3:24
> Rom 3:28
> Rom 3:30
> Rom 4:5
> Rom 5:1
> Rom 5:9
> Rom 5:16
> Rom 8:30
> Rom 8:33
> 1 Cor 6:11
> Gal 2:16
> Gal 3:18
> Gal 3:24
> Mark 16:16
> Luke 7:50
> Luke 8:12
> Luke 18:42
> John 10:9
> Acts 16:31



What will he do with those verses?
Well, i hope he want do the same with those as you'd suggest we do with Jesus' words and His apostles' words concerning New Testament baptism!


----------



## Ronnie T

Actually, this isn't a discussion of baptism.
It's a discussion of one's willingness to accept the Word exactly, and precisely the way God chose to have them presented to us.
To be willing to accept God's grace, and God's Holy Word.


----------



## Israel

The preaching of the gospel will always lead to one of two things...
1. What must I do then, to be saved?
2. Later dude (or some variant thereof)

We know it is by grace through faith that saves us.
God mercifully gives us a way to demonstrate that faith which, if it does not immediately produce a desire to conform in obedience to this new spirit of which we are now possessed, one might easily ask, what spirit did you receive?
An obedient son...or something else?

And to the preacher, in obedience to whom are you preaching?

We are receiving the spirit of Christ, the obedient son...and rejecting Adam as our inner man.

If the attitude is "what's in it for me, what's the least I can do..." 
Then I marvel that one would believe this to be the spirit of Christ.

If the first impetus is a response of a son awakening to the knowledge of a new Lord and is..."what would you have me to do...Lord..."

I believe the same spirit that commended Jesus for his obedience will also instruct in an answer.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Actually, this isn't a discussion of baptism.
> It's a discussion of one's willingness to accept the Word exactly, and precisely the way God chose to have them presented to us.
> To be willing to accept God's grace, and God's Holy Word.



Well actually I thought it was a discussion of baptism, water vs. blood.
Back to basics... spiritually I'm washed in the blood, but physically(which will pass away) i'm baptized in water and even at that time it's a spiritual (inside) event. The water washes nothing away, it's what water baptism represents (symbolizes) that washes my sins away, which already occurred before my outward baptism.


----------



## BeenHuntn

dangerous. very dangerous to add anything to the blood, salvation and what Christ did on the cross...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> when Jesus said you must be born of water and the spirit He was saying that being born of water is the first birth, the natural birth. as a baby...  then when older you are born again.  you cant be born again unless you are born the first time as a baby.  not by baptism.  water meant natural birth...
> 
> cf, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?  lazarus? abraham?  moses? were they baptized? no... but they still were saved.
> 
> if you say baptism is a necessity for salvation... what do you do with these verses? salvation is discussed but not baptism.
> 
> Acts 13:39
> Rom 3:24
> Rom 3:28
> Rom 3:30
> Rom 4:5
> Rom 5:1
> Rom 5:9
> Rom 5:16
> Rom 8:30
> Rom 8:33
> 1 Cor 6:11
> Gal 2:16
> Gal 3:18
> Gal 3:24
> Mark 16:16
> Luke 7:50
> Luke 8:12
> Luke 18:42
> John 10:9
> Acts 16:31




Here’s an anecdote to explain my position.

I used to listen to Hank Hanegraaff (“The Bible Answer Man”) on one of the local Christian radio stations –listened to him for years.  If you’ve never heard of him, he’s a very knowledgeable Christian apologist.  In all the time I listened to his show, I heard him rendered speechless on exactly ONE occasion.  Here’s how it happened:

Hank and another Protestant apologist were debating a Catholic guy on various doctrines.  (BTW, I’m not Catholic so this is not another “Catholic vs. Protestant” thing.)  Anyway, John 3:5 came up at one point and Hank said the same thing you just said, that the “water” was referring to the physical birth.  The Catholic guy then asked Hank:

_“Can you name any church father in the first thousand years of history who believed that the “water” in John 3:5 referred to anything OTHER THAN baptism?”_

Hank’s response?  The sound of crickets chirping.  The other Protestant had no response, either.  They both realized the Catholic guy was right:  the church universally believed that Jesus is speaking about water baptism in John 3.

As for the other verses you mention, I don’t have a problem with any of them.  You have to view scripture in its entirety.  You can’t just isolate verses and build a theology around them.

When:

(a) Jesus says we must be born of water and the Spirit in John 3, 

(b) and then tells the apostles to baptize in the Great Commission of Matthew 28 and Mark 16, 

(c) and then you see the conversion accounts in Acts involving baptism, 

(d) and then you read church father after church father teaching that water baptism is essential,

… you kind of have to put two and two together.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Makes no sense to me.....
> 
> Ok let's see, in the 2nd and 3rd century, Christ hadn't died and been resurrected? That already happened. So in the 2nd and 3rd century,when they baptized someone they didn't know it was because of the death and ressurection of Christ 2 or 3 hundreds years before.?
> 
> Well maybe that's what I'm saying, if they didn't comprehend it then, we are now in a turtle parade to see which cames first, salvation or baptism. or somebody is, not me, I already know.



They definitely comprehended the meaning of baptism, since they had been taught by the apostles and the disciples of the apostles.  They just didn’t believe it was a symbol.  Nobody did until the Protestant Reformation.  As Big7 noted above, not even Martin Luther considered it a symbol.  I can’t tell you exactly when the “baptism is not necessary – it’s just a symbol” argument came into being.  My guess is it started later in the Reformation among some of the more radical reformers.


----------



## Israel

I believe the first disciples very well understood the significance of baptism, especially in light of Jesus' own.
If ever there was a man who didn't need to be "washed", he is the man.
Yet what did he say when coming to John for baptism and John said..."...I have need to be baptized of thee"?
Jesus said
"Suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness..."

There are two things at work here.
The obvious...that Jesus came to be an example for us...these things he didn't need to do, but willingly submitted to do for our sakes in obedience to the Father...he did.
Even as he said in John..."for their sakes I sanctify myself..." Jesus didn't need to do anything "for himself", but was willing to do whatever was necessary to be both example to us and power for us.
What did Jesus say in John when the disciples heard the voice of the Father from heaven?

John 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

So, Jesus was always concerned that those things he did and said would bring about the heavenly confirmation of his being Lord...yet not that he needed them at all.

The "fulfilling of all righteousness" is now likewise the interest of those born of God. 
The attitude of heart is never "is this necessary"...but rather "what would you have me to do, Lord"


I will testify in the Lord that most often it is the "little" things...those things that seem almost inconsequential, and almost needless in which our obedience is tested...for he who is faithful in little will also be faithful in much.

It is rarely the willingness to go to Bible school, or start a church, or give your body to be burned that God is after...for he knows if he can just get us to do the things we think are beneath us, or of no consequence...then he will have us for the larger tasks.

You want to know about a pastor or anyone claiming to be a "leader" in the church?
(As the topic of frauds has so frequently come into play here) observe how he is with his wife...is he kind? patient with his children? or dismissive and churlish? Toward the "least" in the assembly...is he attentive?

God has his eye on us for the small things...for he knows if he has our hearts there, he is able to do with us as he wishes in the weightier matters of ministering the gospel rightly and being a wise builder in his house.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Here’s an anecdote to explain my position.
> 
> I used to listen to Hank Hanegraaff (“The Bible Answer Man”) on one of the local Christian radio stations –listened to him for years.  If you’ve never heard of him, he’s a very knowledgeable Christian apologist.  In all the time I listened to his show, I heard him rendered speechless on exactly ONE occasion.  Here’s how it happened:
> 
> Hank and another Protestant apologist were debating a Catholic guy on various doctrines.  (BTW, I’m not Catholic so this is not another “Catholic vs. Protestant” thing.)  Anyway, John 3:5 came up at one point and Hank said the same thing you just said, that the “water” was referring to the physical birth.  The Catholic guy then asked Hank:
> 
> _“Can you name any church father in the first thousand years of history who believed that the “water” in John 3:5 referred to anything OTHER THAN baptism?”_
> 
> Hank’s response?  The sound of crickets chirping.  The other Protestant had no response, either.  They both realized the Catholic guy was right:  the church universally believed that Jesus is speaking about water baptism in John 3.
> 
> As for the other verses you mention, I don’t have a problem with any of them.  You have to view scripture in its entirety.  You can’t just isolate verses and build a theology around them.
> 
> When:
> 
> (a) Jesus says we must be born of water and the Spirit in John 3,
> 
> (b) and then tells the apostles to baptize in the Great Commission of Matthew 28 and Mark 16,
> 
> (c) and then you see the conversion accounts in Acts involving baptism,
> 
> (d) and then you read church father after church father teaching that water baptism is essential,
> 
> … you kind of have to put two and two together.




what the church believed after close of revelation means nothing to me and should mean nothing to you.  the only thing that should matter as Christians is the Word.  the Word says that baptism is not necessary for salvation to occur.  what augustine said, or origen doesnt matter. how do we know they werent wrong? we dont. Christians can stick to the Word of God in full confidence that nothing else is needed.  no more revelation is needed. no anything.

Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished".  that was it. complete.  He did not say, "well, i just saved everyone, but they still have to get baptized".

salvation is 100% the work of Christ. not 90% Christ, 5% baptism, 5% Lords Supper, etc..

its a free gift. not of your works lest any man should boast.


cf, did the thief on the cross go to heaven? you likely wont answer me, so...

if your answer is yes.  you agree with Christ and also say that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. because he obviously wasnt baptized.

if you answer no. than you are saying the words of Christ cannot be trusted.

making anything part of salvation other than the cross, is nothing less than legalism.


----------



## Inthegarge

Let's start with Jesus Acts 1:5  "For John Baptized with water; but ye shall Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence"..Then in Acts 11:16 Luke writes "then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost". This was when the Holy Ghost first fell on Gentiles. It is also well after Jesus's death and the so called change in the way people were saved. 

The  verses I posted earlier also confirm there is only One baptism and it is by the Spirit of God. Jesus said it, an apostle confirmed it and them Paul confirmed it in Ephesians chapter 4.

The apostles and the early church understood this. The other scriptures support Baptism but do not command water baptism as necessary for salvation. It was understood that baptism by the HS had taken place and water baptism was the way to show this.

Again, salvation is a spiritual event. As such there is no physical aspect to it. John 3:6 says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."................RW


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> what the church believed after close of revelation means nothing to me and should mean nothing to you.  the only thing that should matter as Christians is the Word.  the Word says that baptism is not necessary for salvation to occur.  what augustine said, or origen doesnt matter. how do we know they werent wrong? we dont. Christians can stick to the Word of God in full confidence that nothing else is needed.  no more revelation is needed. no anything.



There are a few things wrong with this.

First, what’s wrong with considering the opinions of smart, godly people who knew the apostles and the disciples of the apostles?  Isn’t it conceivable that they might possess some insight that Christians today could benefit from?  We are 20 centuries removed from the facts, after all.    Here’s Justin Martyr from his _First Apology _(mid 2nd century):

_Then they are led by us to a place where there is water; and there they are reborn in the same kind of rebirth in which we ourselves were reborn: In the name of God, the Lord and Father of all, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they receive the washing with water. For Christ said, "Unless you be reborn, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." ...The reason for doing this, we have learned from the Apostles._

Second, your suggestion of “sticking to the Word” is something that was impossible for the early Christians.  If you were a Christian in Rome in 120 AD, you couldn’t just walk down to the local Family Bookstore and buy a KJV Bible.  And even if you could, it wouldn’t have helped since most people were illiterate.  The non-believers on the forum do have a point:  there was no completed NT canon until the late 4th century.  Even then, it was not available to the average Christian.  The Bible wasn’t widely available until the invention of the printing press.  Do you really believe there was no church until then?

Third, the Protestant Reformation is proof positive that “sticking to the Word” does not produce unity.  Just look at this board, for example.  Everybody quotes scripture but there’s not even a consensus on baptism.  “Something else” is definitely needed, and that is the collective opinions of the church that produced the Bible.  Do you think modern physicists completely ignore Newton just because he lived a long time ago?




BeenHuntn said:


> … the Word says that baptism is not necessary for salvation to occur.



No, it does not.  That is your interpretation of various verses.  There is no passage in the NT that says “baptism is not necessary for salvation to occur.”




BeenHuntn said:


> salvation is 100% the work of Christ.



I agree completely.  What I disagree with is the premise of this thread.  There is no “water versus blood” argument in the NT or in the ante-Nicene writings.




BeenHuntn said:


> cf, did the thief on the cross go to heaven?.



He absolutely did.  But, as I said before, the Jesus who told him He would see him in Paradise is the same Jesus who told Nicodemus he must be “born of water and the Spirit”.


----------



## whome

We actually don't know that he (Thief) wasn't baptized now do we?

Acts 2:38 - Repent and Be Baptized for Remission of Sins
Where does this passage place remission in relation to baptism?
Are sins forgiven (remitted) before baptism or as a result of it? Note that the purpose of baptism is clearly stated: it is for remission of sins. 
Consider the people to whom Peter was speaking. 
If "for" means "because they already had remission," then Peter must have been talking to saved people. Was he? 

He had just convicted them of the sin of killing Jesus (v36), and they were pricked in heart and asked what to do (v37). They did not already have remission, but stood in need of receiving it. 

Peter then told them to "repent." If they already had remission, why did they need to repent? The command to repent proves these people were not already saved, but were still sinners needing to receive remission. 

After v38, Peter told them to "be saved" from the wicked generation (v40). If they were already saved, why tell them to be saved? 

Clearly these were not saved people being told what to do because they had remission. They were lost sinners being told what to do to receive remission. Hence, "for remission of sins" means "in order to receive remission." 

Consider the parallel to Matthew 26:28. 

Acts 2:38 says be baptized "for remission of sins." 

Matthew 26:28 says Jesus blood would be shed for many "for remission of sins." 

Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? Not at all. He did it so people who did not have remission could receive it. 

Likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it. 

1 Peter 3:21 - Baptism Saves Us
Noah illustrates how we are saved. V20 says he and his family were saved "by (or through) water." The flood water destroyed the wicked, but it also saved Noah because it bore the ark up, delivering (saving) Noah from death. 

This illustrates the fact that baptism is what saves us. This does not mean that we are physically washing dirt from our bodies. The power is not in the water but in the death and resurrection of Jesus. But we contact that blood in baptism. 

Romans 6:3 - We Are Baptized into Jesus' Death
This verse says again (as in Gal. 3:27) that we are baptized into Jesus. But also we are baptized into Jesus' death. 

Why is Jesus' death important to us? It was in His death that He shed His blood that saves us from sin! How do we come into contact with it? We are baptized into it! 

Baptism is where the sinner contacts the blood! 

In baptism we receive the benefits of Jesus' death! What then is the condition of those who say you are saved before baptism or that baptism is not necessary for the remission of sins? 

Acts 22:16 - Be Baptized and Wash away Your Sins
Where is the washing away of sins in this passage: before baptism or a result that follows from baptism? 

Saul had seen Jesus on the road, clearly believed in Him, and was willing to obey Him (22:5-10; 9:3-6). He had even been praying (9:9,11). If anyone could be saved before baptism, it would be Saul. Was he saved? 

Jesus had said Saul should go into the city and would be told what he must do (9:6). Ananias came and told him to be baptized and wash away his sins. 

If sins are forgiven before baptism, Saul would have had no sins to wash away. But he had his sins till he was baptized. So, though a person may believe in Jesus and repent, he is still guilty of all his sins till he is baptized.


----------



## centerpin fan

Inthegarge said:


> The verses I posted earlier also confirm there is only One baptism and it is by the Spirit of God.... the early church understood this.



No, they did not.

Here's Tertullian:

_A treatise on our sacrament of water, by which the sins of our earlier blindness are washed away and we are released for eternal life will not be superfluous.....taking away death by the washing away of sins. The guilt being removed, the penalty, of course, is also removed.....Baptism is itself a corporal act by which we are plunged in water, while its effect is spiritual, in that we are freed from sins. (On Baptism 1:1; 5:6; 7:2)

...no one can attain salvation without Baptism, especially in view of the declaration of the Lord, who says: "Unless a man shall be born of water, he shall not have life." _

Here's Irenaeus:

_And [Naaman] dipped himself...seven times in the Jordan" [2 Kings 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as new-born babes, even as the Lord has declared: "Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Fragment 34)_

Here's Clement:

_But you will perhaps say, "What does the baptism of water contribute toward the worship of God?" In the first place, because that which has pleased God is fulfilled. In the second place, because when you are regenerated and born again of water and of God, the frailty of your former birth, which you have through men, is cut off, and so ...you shall be able to attain salvation; but otherwise it is impossible. For thus has the true Prophet [Jesus] testified to us with an oath: "Verily, I say to you, that unless a man is born again of water....he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Recognitions 6:9)_

There are many more just like these.


----------



## Inthegarge

Still don't address what Jesus said............ Or the other scriptures I quoted..
It is irrevalent what "early Christians thought" if it doesn't square with scripture. Unless you believe the scriptures are flawed..
You presume a lot when you claim that physical water is what cleanes away a mans sin.....
Again, Salvation is a spiritual act NOT physical. We don't become a sinless fleshy person after baptism do we ???  The same argument is used to try and prove 1/2 angel, 1/2 man Giants in Genesis.
Your type of arguement is what has caused all the confusion in Christianity today. Please don't use man's books (Recognitions 6:9) to misstate the words of my Lord Jesus....Jesus said His Baptism would be by the Holy Spirit....Believe it or not !!!!!!!!!  No more pearls before swine.............RW

PS citing 2 or 3 authors who support your position does not mean that the early church believed it.............


----------



## BeenHuntn

Inthegarge said:


> Still don't address what Jesus said............ Or the other scriptures I quoted..
> It is irrevalent what "early Christians thought" if it doesn't square with scripture. Unless you believe the scriptures are flawed..
> You presume a lot when you claim that physical water is what cleanes away a mans sin.....
> Again, Salvation is a spiritual act NOT physical. We don't become a sinless fleshy person after baptism do we ???  The same argument is used to try and prove 1/2 angel, 1/2 man Giants in Genesis.
> Your type of arguement is what has caused all the confusion in Christianity today. Please don't use man's books (Recognitions 6:9) to misstate the words of my Lord Jesus....Jesus said His Baptism would be by the Holy Spirit....Believe it or not !!!!!!!!!  No more pearls before swine.............RW
> 
> PS citing 2 or 3 authors who support your position does not mean that the early church believed it.............




THANK YOU, GARGE !!!!  


question for cf or rt...

what about the baby that is baptized as a baby then goes on to lead a life as a heathen and then dies without accepting Christ or repenting???  do they go to heaven just because they were sprinkled?

heaven or helll?  pls answer yes or no w/o a bunch of church father mumbo jumbo...  thx.


----------



## centerpin fan

Inthegarge said:


> Still don't address what Jesus said............ Or the other scriptures I quoted..
> It is irrevalent what "early Christians thought" if it doesn't square with scripture. Unless you believe the scriptures are flawed..



No, I don't.  I think the belief that baptism is just a symbol (which began during the Reformation) is flawed.




Inthegarge said:


> It is irrevalent what "early Christians thought" if it doesn't square with scripture.



It might not square with _your interpretation _of scripture.  That doesn't mean that they were wrong.  It might mean you are wrong.  Look at it from their perspective.  They would say your views don't square with the scriptures.




Inthegarge said:


> You presume a lot when you claim that physical water is what cleanes away a mans sin.....



I'm not claiming anything that has not been claimed from the beginning.




Inthegarge said:


> Again, Salvation is a spiritual act NOT physical. We don't become a sinless fleshy person after baptism do we ???



We do according to the ancient church.  I thought Tertullian summed it up nicely.




Inthegarge said:


> Your type of arguement is what has caused all the confusion in Christianity today. .....



No, that would be the Reformation.  Talk about opening Pandora's box!




Inthegarge said:


> PS citing 2 or 3 authors who support your position does not mean that the early church believed it.............



Feel free to quote one that supports your position.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> what about the baby that is baptized as a baby then goes on to lead a life as a heathen and then dies without accepting Christ or repenting???  do they go to heaven just because they were sprinkled?



I don't get to decide the eternal destiny of anybody.  I don't see how a person like this could make it to heaven, though.  Salvation is a journey.

Here's the same question for you:  what if an 18-year old man accepts Christ and sincerely repents of his sins ... and then goes on to lead the life of a heathen.  Not only does he live as a heathen, but he later renounces Christ and converts to Islam.

Does he go to Heaven? 




BeenHuntn said:


> pls answer yes or no w/o a bunch of church father mumbo jumbo...  thx.



Why such disdain for the opinions of godly men and women, many of whom died for their faith?


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> what the church believed after close of revelation means nothing to me and should mean nothing to you.  the only thing that should matter as Christians is the Word.  the Word says that baptism is not necessary for salvation to occur.
> I can't believe you would say that.  Jesus Himself said baptism is important.  Jesus Himself included it as being necessary for salvation.  Where do you get off saying He didn't?
> 
> what augustine said, or origen doesnt matter. how do we know they werent wrong? we dont. Christians can stick to the Word of God in full confidence that nothing else is needed.  no more revelation is needed. no anything.
> 
> Jesus said on the cross, "it is finished".  that was it. complete.  He did not say, "well, i just saved everyone, but they still have to get baptized".
> 
> salvation is 100% the work of Christ. not 90% Christ, 5% baptism, 5% Lords Supper, etc..
> 
> its a free gift. not of your works lest any man should boast.
> 
> 
> cf, did the thief on the cross go to heaven? you likely wont answer me, so...
> 
> if your answer is yes.  you agree with Christ and also say that baptism is not a requirement for salvation. because he obviously wasnt baptized.
> 
> if you answer no. than you are saying the words of Christ cannot be trusted.
> 
> making anything part of salvation other than the cross, is nothing less than legalism.




I'm really shocked that so many people have developed the ability to ignore the very teaching of Jesus Christ Himself.


----------



## Ronnie T

Inthegarge said:


> Let's start with Jesus Acts 1:5  "For John Baptized with water; but ye shall Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence"..Then in Acts 11:16 Luke writes "then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost". This was when the Holy Ghost first fell on Gentiles. It is also well after Jesus's death and the so called change in the way people were saved.
> 
> The  verses I posted earlier also confirm there is only One baptism and it is by the Spirit of God. Jesus said it, an apostle confirmed it and them Paul confirmed it in Ephesians chapter 4.
> 
> The apostles and the early church understood this. The other scriptures support Baptism but do not command water baptism as necessary for salvation. It was understood that baptism by the HS had taken place and water baptism was the way to show this.
> 
> Again, salvation is a spiritual event. As such there is no physical aspect to it. John 3:6 says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."................RW



Here's the Holy Spirit that all Christians will believe....
But, oh, I forgot, you've removed this verse from your Bible.

Acts 2:38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 

Does that make any sense to you at all????


----------



## Harbuck

Inthegarge said:


> Let's start with Jesus Acts 1:5  "For John Baptized with water; but ye shall Baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence"..Then in Acts 11:16 Luke writes "then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that He said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost". This was when the Holy Ghost first fell on Gentiles. It is also well after Jesus's death and the so called change in the way people were saved.
> 
> The  verses I posted earlier also confirm there is only One baptism and it is by the Spirit of God. Jesus said it, an apostle confirmed it and them Paul confirmed it in Ephesians chapter 4.
> 
> The apostles and the early church understood this. The other scriptures support Baptism but do not command water baptism as necessary for salvation. It was understood that baptism by the HS had taken place and water baptism was the way to show this.
> 
> Again, salvation is a spiritual event. As such there is no physical aspect to it. John 3:6 says "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."................RW



the bible also says that you can't enter into the kingdom of heaven unless you are born of the water and of the spirit. So explain that one please.


----------



## Ronnie T

To Beenhuntn and Inthegarge.

Jesus Christ Himself has told you that Baptism with water is an important part of the salvation process.

Jesus' apostles(Peter) told the very first Christians(Acts 2:38) to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.

No other scriptures are necessary.

And yet you two would be willing to ignore these very teachings of Christ Himself rather than even consider something that's different from what you've been taught earlier.

Yes, Jesus saved the thief on the cross.  SO.  SO!!
AFTER He saved the thief on the cross He instructed me and you be be baptized for the remission of our sins.

Yes, you are saved by God's grace, but Jesus said to get baptized for the remission of your sins.

I got to hand it to you, your willingness to study the Bible openly might not be the greatest, but when you make up your minds on what you're going to believe, you certainly stand your ground.
That could be a good quality, but only if your study is rational.

I pray that in the days to come you will study the subject of baptism.  It's apparant importance to Christ, and it's importance in the teachings of the apostles.  And while you study it, forget about the thief on the cross.  He isn't part of the equation.  Neither is Lazarus.


----------



## Inthegarge

Harbuck said:


> the bible also says that you can't enter into the kingdom of heaven unless you are born of the water and of the spirit. So explain that one please.



Scripture please ................................I was born of water on Oct 19, 1952.. I was born of the Spirit on Jan 15, 1975...Those born only of water will not enter the kingdom of God............RW


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## centerpin fan

Inthegarge said:


> Scripture please



John 3:5



Inthegarge said:


> I was born of water on Oct 19, 1952.. I was born of the Spirit on Jan 15, 1975...



I'll ask you the same question I posted above:

_“Can you name any church father in the first thousand years of history who believed that the “water” in John 3:5 referred to anything OTHER THAN baptism?”_


----------



## whome

Inthegarge said:


> Scripture please ................................I was born of water on Oct 19, 1952.. I was born of the Spirit on Jan 15, 1975...Those born only of water will not enter the kingdom of God............RW



Kinda funny that you don't know the scripture cause it comes from the same passage you referenced earlier as
John 3:6. The story of Nicodemus and Jesus. Try reading John 3:1-24... 
Might want to look at Romans 6:3-5 infact, read all of Romans 6.
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 

When we are baptized into Christ, we are baptized into His death, and therefore into His burial and resurrection as well. 
It is through BAPTISM that we come into contact with Christ's blood that was shed at the cross... How much more simple can it be than this. 
Baptism=Christ's Blood
Not cause I said it, but cause it says it in Romans 6:3-5


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> To Beenhuntn and Inthegarge.
> 
> Jesus Christ Himself has told you that Baptism with water is an important part of the salvation process.
> 
> Jesus' apostles(Peter) told the very first Christians(Acts 2:38) to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of their sins.
> 
> No other scriptures are necessary.
> 
> And yet you two would be willing to ignore these very teachings of Christ Himself rather than even consider something that's different from what you've been taught earlier.
> 
> Yes, Jesus saved the thief on the cross.  SO.  SO!!
> AFTER He saved the thief on the cross He instructed me and you be be baptized for the remission of our sins.
> 
> Yes, you are saved by God's grace, but Jesus said to get baptized for the remission of your sins.
> 
> I got to hand it to you, your willingness to study the Bible openly might not be the greatest, but when you make up your minds on what you're going to believe, you certainly stand your ground.
> That could be a good quality, but only if your study is rational.
> 
> I pray that in the days to come you will study the subject of baptism.  It's apparant importance to Christ, and it's importance in the teachings of the apostles.  And while you study it, forget about the thief on the cross.  He isn't part of the equation.  Neither is Lazarus.




sorry bud. i claim nor want an ounce of credit.  the Bible is clear.  Jesus did it ALL.  nothing else needed.  saying that Jesus' work fell short is saying that God failed.... and He didnt. 

guys, why is repentance mentioned 20+ times in the NT but yet baptism is not mentioned along with repentance?

pouring water on a persons head, or a person being dunked in water means ZERO....  only Christ matters and His grace and His forgiveness...  baptism means nothing.  its simply something a believer does once repented and received the Spirit...

the sabbath was created for men... not men for the sabbath... baptism was created for men.... not men for the baptism...

Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam ned.

folks this is proof that the only thing that matters is believing....  he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not, shall be dam ned... this is so clear that the only thing that matter is believing...  !!  not the baptism.  if you get baptized w/o be a true believer... its a waste of time...  hello?


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> sorry bud. i claim nor want an ounce of credit.  the Bible is clear.  Jesus did it ALL.  nothing else needed.  saying that Jesus' work fell short is saying that God failed.... and He didnt.
> 
> guys, why is repentance mentioned 20+ times in the NT but yet baptism is not mentioned along with repentance?
> 
> pouring water on a persons head, or a person being dunked in water means ZERO....  only Christ matters and His grace and His forgiveness...  baptism means nothing.  its simply something a believer does once repented and received the Spirit...
> 
> the sabbath was created for men... not men for the sabbath... baptism was created for men.... not men for the baptism...
> 
> Mark 16:16
> He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam ned.
> 
> folks this is proof that the only thing that matters is believing....  he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not, shall be dam ned... this is so clear that the only thing that matter is believing...  !!  not the baptism.  if you get baptized w/o be a true believer... its a waste of time...  hello?



Your completely right... I don't know what Acts 2:38 says...
Mark 16:16 is a very weak argument to tell someone that baptism isn't necessary... what do you think is mentioned right there with believing in Mark 16:16? BAPTISM... IF you believe and are baptized, you have a hope of salvation. 

I'd be concerned about making a statement such as "pouring water on a persons head, or a person being dunked in water means ZERO....  only Christ matters and His grace and His forgiveness...  baptism means nothing.  its simply something a believer does once repented and received the Spirit..."

For one, it was a direct commandment by Jesus in Matthew 28:19... I hope you realize that your statement is a direct contradiction to the word of God because as you state it means ZERO... baptism means NOTHING.

You are demeaning what Jesus did for you, me, and everone else in the world when he died on the cross for the remission of sins. It is throught Baptism that we come into contact with Jesus's blood as we are BAPTIZED into his death... Romans 6
Do you know something that I, along with a lot of other people don't know. Do you have direct correlation with God and the authority to change what the bible says? 

By the way, the word Baptize in some shape or form is mentioned more that 100 times.

" and folks this is proof that the only thing that matters is believing.... he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not, shall be dam ned... this is so clear that the only thing that matter is believing... !! not the baptism. if you get baptized w/o be a true believer... its a waste of time... hello?"

You have proved absolutely nothing... you reference one scripture and say "believe what "I" say"... "all you have to do is believe."


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> baptism is not mentioned along with repentance?



Ronnie already mentioned one:  Acts 2:38.


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Your completely right... I don't know what Acts 2:38 says...
> Mark 16:16 is a very weak argument to tell someone that baptism isn't necessary... what do you think is mentioned right there with believing in Mark 16:16? BAPTISM... IF you believe and are baptized, you have a hope of salvation.
> 
> I'd be concerned about making a statement such as "pouring water on a persons head, or a person being dunked in water means ZERO....  only Christ matters and His grace and His forgiveness...  baptism means nothing.  its simply something a believer does once repented and received the Spirit..."
> 
> For one, it was a direct commandment by Jesus in Matthew 28:19... I hope you realize that your statement is a direct contradiction to the word of God because as you state it means ZERO... baptism means NOTHING.
> 
> You are demeaning what Jesus did for you, me, and everone else in the world when he died on the cross for the remission of sins. It is throught Baptism that we come into contact with Jesus's blood as we are BAPTIZED into his death... Rom 6
> Do you know something that I, along with a lot of other people don't know. Do you have direct correlation with God and the authority to change what the bible says?
> 
> By the way, the word Baptize in some shape or form is mentioned in more that 100 times.





i am "demeaning" what Christ did??  

i am the one standing up for Christ.  not you. you are standing up for baptism (water or a ritual) over Christ...   

you are putting water on the same level as Christ,,,,  you need to repent...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> Mark 16:16
> He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam ned.
> 
> folks this is proof that the only thing that matters is believing....  he that believes and is baptized shall be saved but he that believeth not, shall be dam ned... this is so clear that the only thing that matter is believing...  !!  not the baptism.  if you get baptized w/o be a true believer... its a waste of time...  hello?



Why on earth would anyone get baptized if they didn't believe?  

If you don't believe, you're not even in the on deck circle, 
but that doesn't negate the need for baptism.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> i am "demeaning" what Christ did??
> 
> i am the one standing up for Christ.  not you. you are standing up for baptism (water or a ritual) over Christ...
> 
> you are putting water on the same level as Christ,,,,  you need to repent...



Because it is through Baptism that you come into Christ's blood and to say it isn't necessary is in direct contradiction to what the bible teaches. I WILL stand up for Baptism because it is what is taught in the bible.
I need to repent????

What then sir, is the purpose of baptism according to the bible?


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Why on earth would anyone get baptized if they didn't believe?
> 
> If you don't believe, you're not even in the on deck circle,
> but that doesn't negate the need for baptism.



what about the millions of babies every year that are sprinkled but dont have a clue?  they dont believe but their parents force them to get baptized...

because of the teachings of folks like origen and augustine... many think they can go get water poured over their head and will make it to heaven...  because of the baptism... neglecting repentance and being born again and discipleship...
baptismal regeneration is one of the most evil doctrines EVER...

religion and the teachings of men are evil...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> i am "demeaning" what Christ did??
> 
> i am the one standing up for Christ.  not you. you are standing up for baptism (water or a ritual) over Christ...
> 
> you are putting water on the same level as Christ,,,,  you need to repent...



Have you ever read John 3:5?


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> what about the millions of babies every year that are sprinkled but dont have a clue?  they dont believe but their parents force them to get baptized...
> 
> because of the teachings of folks like origen and augustine... many think they can go get water poured over their head and will make it to heaven...  because of the baptism... neglecting repentance and being born again and discipleship...
> baptismal regeneration is one of the most evil doctrines EVER...
> 
> religion and the teachings of men are evil...




TRUE TRUE.... DING DING... you got it. There is nothing and I mean nothing scriptural about infant baptism. It was something a pope came up with and somewhere it "caught." One must be able to hear and understand the word and clearly a baby can not do that. I am glad we agree on something.


----------



## BeenHuntn

let me ask you cf...

when you were a child... and your parents said, go clean your room... did you go and research what the 1st and 2nd century children did?? or did you just obey your parents?

well, what does God say to do...? obey your parents.  He never said go ask origen or augustine or their kids what they would do...

the Bible is PERFECT.


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> TRUE TRUE.... DING DING... you got it. There is nothing and I mean nothing scriptural about infant baptism. It was something a pope came up with and somewhere it "caught." One must be able to hear and understand the word and clearly a baby can not do that. I am glad we agree on something.




yeh but you think a person must get water poured over their head to go to heaven...  that is blasphemy and legalism all in the same error.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Have you ever read John 3:5?



somewhere between 20 - 50 times...  whats your point???


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> yeh but you think a person must get water poured over their head to go to heaven...  that is blasphemy and legalism all in the same error.



NO...Baptism
BAPTIZO "to dip, immerge, submerge"

I'll ask you again, scripturally what is said about baptism???


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> NO...Baptism
> BAPTIZO "to dip, immerge, submerge"
> 
> I'll ask you again, scripturally what is said about baptism???



easy... a person, believes, repents and gains faith... therefore making him a child of the kingdom of God... and THEN they make a profession of their belief by getting baptzed by their church...   so simple my 5 year old can figure it out...


----------



## whome

If you read John 3:5... reference that verse with the following; Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and you should have your answer.


Baptism is essential to new birth. 
If I say, "You are a citizen of this country, because you have been born into it." Does your birth or your citizenship come first? Now use the same verb tenses in Galatians 3:26,27:

"ye ARE all the children of God by faith"
"for" (Greek GAR = because)
"as many of you as HAVE BEEN baptized into Christ..."

So looking at verb tenses, which came first... baptism or being a child of God? "Faith only" says one is first a child of God, then he is baptized. But the Scripture clearly says one is first baptized "into Christ," then he is a child of God. 

Romans 6:4 one has "newness of life" (new birth, born again) after he is raised from baptism, not before  (Colossians 2:12,13; John 3:5). And all this happens "by faith." Becoming a child of God "by faith" includes baptism it does not exclude it.


----------



## Israel

There seems to be very little recognition of the spiritual implications of the things God gives us to do while in these bodies.
I am not speaking of mystical ritualistic practices, but the very simple instructions that do indeed have very powerful spiritual truth as their foundation...and therefore minister much grace in their obedient practice.
Confess Christ as Lord...

Gee, why should I? God knows I believe.

Be baptized...

Again, if I am righteous, what do I need a bath for, I'm already cleansed...(Good thing Jesus didn't have that "mind")

Eat this meal in remembrance of me...

Nah, let's turn it into crackers and juice...


Now, any of these things can be made to serve a ritualistic or legalistic religious system.
But we are not here speaking of what men do with the things of God...but rather how the things of God are given to men as a gift of a revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is not one instruction, not one thing given by the Lord as a point of obedience that is not a gift from him for our sakes.
Do any of us really want to know the fullness of the Lord's joy?
The liberty of which Jesus speaks?
Then let us learn to follow the spirit of God. Not encumbered by requirements, not given a checklist...but learn to see him who was willing to do all and everything he did...because he didn't have to.

The blessing is never in following what makes sense to us...or whose end we clearly see and therefore measure out our obedience "efficiently".

It's always walking into the dark, where the outcome is now not so visible, the rationale not so plain, the presence of the Lord, even, not so manifest...but because you hear that voice that you cannot deny is his, you abide...and in the waiting have the day star arise in your heart...and learn to do and follow just because the Master has said so.

Yes, baptism does indeed appear inconsequential on so many levels...except for the fact that it is something Jesus _both did...and taught.

_


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> If you read John 3:5... reference that verse with the following; Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:21 and you should have your answer.
> 
> 
> Baptism is essential to new birth.
> If I say, "You are a citizen of this country, because you have been born into it." Does your birth or your citizenship come first? Now use the same verb tenses in Galatians 3:26,27:
> 
> "ye ARE all the children of God by faith"
> "for" (Greek GAR = because)
> "as many of you as HAVE BEEN baptized into Christ..."
> 
> So looking at verb tenses, which came first... baptism or being a child of God? "Faith only" says one is first a child of God, then he is baptized. But the Scripture clearly says one is first baptized "into Christ," then he is a child of God.
> 
> Romans 6:4 one has "newness of life" (new birth, born again) after he is raised from baptism, not before  (Colossians 2:12,13; John 3:5). And all this happens "by faith." Becoming a child of God "by faith" includes baptism it does not exclude it.



you are making God's Word of "none effect"...

1 Corinthians 1:17 
 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

anyone should be able to read the above verse and come to the conclusion that baptism is not necessary for salvation.  Jesus commanded Paul to preach the Gospel and NOT baptize...  if baptism is necessary Jesus would have commanded Paul to baptize.

Mark 7:13 
 13Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

1 Corinthians 1:16-18 
 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

 18For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Ephesians 2:8-9 
 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:   9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

baptism is a work and it is said right here... works cannot save...

Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." This is an interesting verse and if you read it closely, you will understand it. Who will be condemned? Are the condemned the ones that don't get baptized? No, the condemned are the ones that don't believe.

Jesus did not baptize anyone either.  isnt it strange that if baptism is a requirement for salvation, that Jesus did not baptize anyone...?

Romans 10:9
 9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

baptism is not even mentioned.  because it is not necessary for salvation.  it is only recommended in Scripture to the followers of Christ...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> you are making God's Word of "none effect"...
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1:17
> 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
> 
> anyone should be able to read the above verse and come to the conclusion that baptism is not necessary for salvation.  Jesus commanded Paul to preach the Gospel and NOT baptize...  if baptism is necessary Jesus would have commanded Paul to baptize.



You are ripping that verse from its context.  Paul is addressing divisions within the church.  People had started to follow whomever had baptized them (see verses 10-12.)  Because of that, Paul says, "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name."

Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize in Mt 28 and Mk 16.  He told Nicodemus he must be "born of water and Spirit" in John 3.  It doesn't get any plainer than that.

Besides, the Paul who wrote that to the Corinthians also wrote Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> You are ripping that verse from its context.  Paul is addressing divisions within the church.  People had started to follow whomever had baptized them (see verses 10-12.)  Because of that, Paul says, "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name."
> 
> Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize in Mt 28 and Mk 16.  He told Nicodemus he must be "born of water and Spirit" in John 3.  It doesn't get any plainer than that.
> 
> Besides, the Paul who wrote that to the Corinthians also wrote Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12.




ok, lets say an unsaved person reads his bible. repents. gives his life to Christ.  Christ fills him the Spirit...  he schedules his baptism with his pastor for the next week. on his way to the church he gets in a wreck and gets killed.  did he go to heaven?


----------



## Israel

centerpin fan said:


> You are ripping that verse from its context.  Paul is addressing divisions within the church.  People had started to follow whomever had baptized them (see verses 10-12.)  Because of that, Paul says, "I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name."
> 
> Jesus commanded the apostles to baptize in Mt 28 and Mk 16.  He told Nicodemus he must be "born of water and Spirit" in John 3.  It doesn't get any plainer than that.
> 
> Besides, the Paul who wrote that to the Corinthians also wrote Romans 6, Galatians 3:27 and Colossians 2:12.



Precisely.
It seems folks were taking the unfortunate attitude that "if I baptized you, then you are my disciple"...
and already the roots of divisions were being propagated.

It is not at all unusual that one might preach and leave the baptizing to another disciple...indeed to show what Paul was always trying to circumvent...that this was not "his show"...and also demonstrate the body functioning rightly, no part being played by any other that might assume superiority in any way.


----------



## thedeacon

If this thread has done nothing else it has made some people (including myself) do some thinking and studing. Personaly I find that to be refreshing.

The original thread started, "blood vs. water" there is no comparison of blood to water. The blood of Christ saves us and even though I believe with all my heart that baptism is necessary because it is commanded in the bible, I feel just as strong that there is no saving power in water. 

We should not be baptized just as a symbol but we should be baptized because it is a command. 

Forget the water and remember the command. 

The saving power is in the blood but there is a thing of obediance that we have to pay close attention to.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> easy... a person, believes, repents and gains faith... therefore making him a child of the kingdom of God... and THEN they make a profession of their belief by getting baptzed by their church...   so simple my 5 year old can figure it out...



Where is the Bible do you get that understanding of Baptism? .....so simple my 5 year old can figure it out...


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Where is the Bible do you get that understanding of Baptism? .....so simple my 5 year old can figure it out...



i find baptism to be extremely simple to understand as taught in the new testament. and yes my 5 year old can explain too. we both agree with what the Bible teaches...  believe (have faith in Christ and His blood) and be saved, then get baptized (if you can) because Jesus told us to...  its very simple. Jesus also told us to share the Gospel, we are not saved by sharing the Gospel.  Jesus did 100% of the work needed for salvation and to take away from that 100% and give credit to baptism, works, Lords Supper, going to church, etc nullifies what He did on the cross...  and i believe to be a very dangerous thing for a Christian to do...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> ok, lets say an unsaved person reads his bible. repents. gives his life to Christ.  Christ fills him the Spirit...  he schedules his baptism with his pastor for the next week. on his way to the church he gets in a wreck and gets killed.  did he go to heaven?



First of all, NOBODY in the NT "schedules his baptism with his pastor for the next week."

Did he go to heaven?  If it were up to me, yes, but I don't get to make those decisions.  If I go by the plain reading of John 3, Mt 28, Mk 16, Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, Acts 22, Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2, 1 Peter 3 -- no.  However, I trust God's infinite mercy in a case like this.

How about this scenario:  an unsaved person reads his bible and is close to repentance.  Before he repents, he has a heart attack and drops dead.  Did he go to heaven?


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> First of all, NOBODY in the NT "schedules his baptism with his pastor for the next week."
> 
> Did he go to heaven?  If it were up to me, yes, but I don't get to make those decisions.  If I go by the plain reading of John 3, Mt 28, Mk 16, Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, Acts 22, Romans 6, Galatians 3, Colossians 2, 1 Peter 3 -- no.  However, I trust God's infinite mercy in a case like this.
> 
> How about this scenario:  an unsaved person reads his bible and is close to repentance.  Before he repents, he has a heart attack and drops dead?  Did he go to heaven?



you still avoided the question.  so i'll answer it for you. yes he went to heaven because he believed and repented and put his faith in Christ... that was all that was needed.  he is in paradise.  just like the thief who was not baptized. just like moses, joseph, jacob, daniel and all the other millions of saints who put their faith in God to be saved but were never baptized.

as far as your question.  the answer is no.  we are not promised the next day, minute or hour.  the time for repentance and believing on Christ for salvation is necessary right this second because we are not guaranteed another minute.  if a person dies without believing on Christ. sorry too late. you should have believed sooner... you have to be saved before you die.
that is what the Bible teaches so i believe it.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> i find baptism to be extremely simple to understand as taught in the new testament.



The question you should ask yourself is this:

_How did my understanding of baptism come to be different than that of Christians from the first 15 centuries of church history?_


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> you still avoided the question.



No, I gave you an honest answer.




BeenHuntn said:


> he believed and repented and put his faith in Christ... that was all that was needed.



That's your (mis)interpretation of scripture.




BeenHuntn said:


> just like the thief who was not baptized. just like moses, joseph, jacob, daniel and all the other millions of saints who put their faith in God to be saved but were never baptized.



All these people were in a different covenant than you or I.




BeenHuntn said:


> as far as your question.  the answer is no.  we are not promised the next day, minute or hour.  the time for repentance and believing on Christ for salvation is necessary right this second because we are not guaranteed another minute.  if a person dies without believing on Christ. sorry too late. you should have believed sooner... you have to be saved before you die.
> that is what the Bible teaches so i believe it.



Why separate repentance and believing from baptism?  They didn't in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, or Acts 22, for example.


----------



## WTM45

BeenHuntn said:


> sorry too late. you should have believed sooner... you have to be saved before you die.
> that is what the Bible teaches so i believe it.



So, BH, do you take Romans 10:10 literally? 
"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." 

If you do, then.....a person who is mute or unable to speak and can NOT confess with his mouth is doomed.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> The question you should ask yourself is this:
> 
> _How did my understanding of baptism come to be different than that of Christians from the first 15 centuries of church history?_



good question.  so i'll give you a good answer.  because the written Word of God was withheld from the people for the most part. people could get killed just for having a Bible.  example John Wycliffe.  he was murdered for wanting to print a Bible.

without a written Word to read and study, all kinds of fallacies and vain traditions can enter Christendom.    

sounds like a strategy of satan to me.  keep the Bible out of the hands of the people to keep them ignorant of the truth...  gain more souls for helll.


a question for cf.  should i believe what uninspired men taught back in the 3rd or 4th century or should i put my trust in the Word of God?


----------



## BeenHuntn

WTM45 said:


> So, BH, do you take Romans 10:10 literally?
> "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
> 
> If you do, then.....a person who is mute or unable to speak and can NOT confess with his mouth is doomed.



yes, literally.

that very verse answers your question. righteousness is in the heart and God judges the heart. God knows our hearts and minds.  so being able to speak doesnt mean anything.  God did give us some common sense to understand these types of verses.  plus, Scripture proves Scripture.  there are hundreds of verses that prove a man has to have faith in Christ. that is done in the heart. not with the mouth.  so if you allow the Bible to teach itself, this verse makes total sense. no confusion at all.


----------



## WTM45

BH, solidly in the corner of Team Calvin!

You need to take that supreme knowledge to a major institution of higher learning and share it.  The world is waiting!


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> yes, literally.
> 
> that very verse answers your question. righteousness is in the heart and God judges the heart. God knows our hearts and minds.  so being able to speak doesnt mean anything.  God did give us some common sense to understand these types of verses.  plus, Scripture proves Scripture.  there are hundreds of verses that prove a man has to have faith in Christ. that is done in the heart. not with the mouth.  so if you allow the Bible to teach itself, this verse makes total sense. no confusion at all.



So, can a person just believe and pray to be saved?


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> No, I gave you an honest answer.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's your (mis)interpretation of scripture.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *so the truth comes out. you do believe that person must be  baptized to go to heaven...  this is why nobody should study the early church heretics.*
> 
> 
> 
> All these people were in a different covenant than you or I.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why separate repentance and believing from baptism?  They didn't in Acts 2, Acts 8, Acts 16, or Acts 22, for example.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...



*they are different and happen at different times.  we are told by God to believe and repent right now and to not put it off.  if we do that and get saved. what makes you think there is gonna be a person there to baptize you at that very moment?  thats crazy. it may take a day week or month to get baptized...*


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> So, can a person just believe and pray to be saved?



yes. and if they are truly saved they will want to obey the commands of Christ.  obedience shows our love for Christ. not our words. not warming a pew. so if they are truly saved, then they will go get baptized.  they will repent of all sins. they will share the Gospel with others, etc etc. they will become disciples of Christ.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> yes. and if they are truly saved they will want to obey the commands of Christ.  obedience shows our love for Christ. not our words. not warming a pew. so if they are truly saved, then they will go get baptized.  they will repent of all sins. they will share the Gospel with others, etc etc. they will become disciples of Christ.



Does baptism wash away our sins?


----------



## BeenHuntn

WTM45 said:


> BH, solidly in the corner of Team Calvin!
> 
> You need to take that supreme knowledge to a major institution of higher learning and share it.  The world is waiting!



i am a calvinist? i didnt know that...  

the only camp that i am in is camp Christ...

i have no supreme knowledge. but i do have a Supreme Lord who has graciously opened my eyes to the Word of God...

no the world is not waiting. the world hates the Biblical Christ.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> without a written Word to read and study, all kinds of fallacies and vain traditions can enter Christendom.



Having a written Word to read and study has _not _prevented "all kinds of fallacies and vain traditions"  from entering Christendom.  The last five centuries of church history offer undeniable proof of that.




BeenHuntn said:


> a question for cf.  should i believe what uninspired men taught back in the 3rd or 4th century or should i put my trust in the Word of God?



Early Christian writings are good _commentaries_ on the scriptures.  That's all.  They show how the early church interpreted the scriptures (baptism, in this case.)  If you read them, you will find they do not agree with your interpretation of NT baptism.

You should trust in the Word of God, but you must realize that if you remove it from the context of the church that produced it, you are bound to misinterpret it.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> easy... a person, believes, repents and gains faith... therefore making him a child of the kingdom of God... and THEN they make a profession of their belief by getting baptzed by their church...   so simple my 5 year old can figure it out...



Since you didn't answer my simple, inquiring question the first time, I'll ask it again.

Where, in the Bible, did you get the above information concerning baptisms purpose??


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> what makes you think there is gonna be a person there to baptize you at that very moment?



From reading the book of Acts.




BeenHuntn said:


> it may take a day week or month to get baptized...[/B]



That was _never_ the case in the NT.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> so the truth comes out. you do believe that person must be baptized to go to heaven...



You're just now figuring that out?


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Does baptism wash away our sins?




water baptism washes away dirt.  Jesus died for my sins.  the  second i came to Him, believed on Him for my salvation, my sins were washed away...  Jesus gets the credit for this not water...

water baptism is just a visible symbol of what Christ did for us...  works do not save. baptism is a work.  Lords Supper is a work. sharing the Gospel is a work. good deeds are a work.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> You're just now figuring that out?



i'll pray for you...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> works do not save. baptism is a work.  Lords Supper is a work. sharing the Gospel is a work. good deeds are a work.



You're talking apples and oranges.  The Lord's supper, sharing the gospel, and doing good deeds are _never _ connected with being born again.

Baptism is, over and over again in the NT.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> i'll pray for you...



Thanks.  I need all the prayers I can get.


----------



## WTM45

BeenHuntn said:


> i am a calvinist? i didnt know that...



A "wanna-be" Calvin.  A self appointed authority.

It is entertaining.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> water baptism washes away dirt.  Jesus died for my sins.  the  second i came to Him, believed on Him for my salvation, my sins were washed away...  Jesus gets the credit for this not water...
> 
> water baptism is just a visible symbol of what Christ did for us...  works do not save. baptism is a work.  Lords Supper is a work. sharing the Gospel is a work. good deeds are a work.



What does Acts 22:16 say? "Arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the lord."
HMMM... so it washes away dirt?

You might want to look at the conversion of Saul... in Acts 9 and then again in Acts 22... what you say is not what the bible says... period.
 Did not Saul believed??? But his sins were not "Washed away" until he was baptized. He believed and prayed, yet it took and still takes today, baptism to washed them away.


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> What does Acts 22:16 say? "Arise and be baptized and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the lord."
> HMMM... so it washes away dirt?
> 
> You might want to look at the conversion of Saul... in Acts 9 and then again in Acts 22... what you say is not what the bible says... period.
> Did not Saul believed??? But his sins were not "Washed away" until he was baptized. He believed and prayed, yet it took and still takes today, baptism to washed them away.




why dont we just accept the obvious...  i will put all of my faith in Christ to wash away my sins... and you can put all of your faith in water to wash away your sins...


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> why dont we just accept the obvious...  i will put all of my faith in Christ to wash away my sins... and you can put all of your faith in water to wash away your sins...



You just don't get it do you??? The blood of Christ is what washes away our sins... We recieve the benefits of that through baptism...
Would it be OK for me to eat Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and drink milk for the Lord's Supper? Or not observe that altogether? Why not?


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> You just don't get it do you??? The blood of Christ is what washes away our sins... We recieve the benefits of that through baptism...
> Would it be OK for me to eat Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and drink milk for the Lord's Supper? Or not observe that altogether? Why not?



we receive the benefits (forgiveness of sins) when we believe on Him with our faith. and i dont like pbj or milk...  i do like choc milk...  

you are doing the same thing with "baptism" (making it necessary for salvation) that the Catholic Church does with the Lords Supper (eucharist)... and the SDA's with the sabbath...  the LS and baptism are just commands from God to do after we are saved but have nothing to do with being or getting saved...  that is what the Bible teaches and i am sticking to it...


----------



## Ronnie T

Originally Posted by BeenHuntn  
easy... a person, believes, repents and gains faith... therefore making him a child of the kingdom of God... and THEN they make a profession of their belief by getting baptzed by their church... so simple my 5 year old can figure it out... 



Since you didn't answer my simple, inquiring question the first time, I'll ask it again.

Where, in the Bible, did you get the above information concerning baptisms purpose??


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Originally Posted by BeenHuntn
> easy... a person, believes, repents and gains faith... therefore making him a child of the kingdom of God... and THEN they make a profession of their belief by getting baptzed by their church... so simple my 5 year old can figure it out...
> 
> 
> 
> Since you didn't answer my simple, inquiring question the first time, I'll ask it again.
> 
> Where, in the Bible, did you get the above information concerning baptisms purpose??



the new testament as a whole. 

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

pouring water over somebodys head would be a work, if you apply salvation to it.  we just read "not by works".

if we could just pour water on someone and they be cleansed why did Jesus die for the sins of the world?

God would have just told everybody to get baptized and would have saved His Son a humiliating death.

Luke 7:50
And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.  He did not say, "they faith has saved you, now go get baptized. He didnt mention being baptized. there was Jesus' chance to tell her she must get baptized and He didint.

John 3:18

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  baptism not mentioned.

Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved... nothing about baptism.

1 Corinthians 6:11-15
 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

baptism not mentioned

Hebrews 1:2-4 
 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

our sins are "purged" or washed away by Christ alone. it says right here By Himself...  that means nothing else washes away sins.

Acts 10:40-48

40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (they were saved) 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.  (they were saved)

   Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." (they were saved) 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. 

as you can plainly see here... the people (Cornelius, etc), heard the Word and believed and received the Holy Spirit... they were saved!!!!!  THEN they got baptized...

water baptism is just a outward display of an inward transformation...


----------



## mtnwoman

Since the bibleman was brought up, who also teaches that if you continue to ask for forgiveness that every time you do you're putting Christ back on the cross....so if that's also true, we'd better quit saying the Lord's prayer.

Let's see what another man we know believes to be true

http://www.billygraham.org/MyAnswer_Article.asp?ArticleID=1705


BG>>Yes, I would certainly encourage you to talk with your pastor about baptism. Baptism is a public sign that you have now put your faith in Christ and are taking an open stand for Him.

It also is a *sign* that Jesus has now washed away all your sins. Think of it: You have been cleansed of every sin you've ever committed,because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you! You aren't saved because of anything you have done; you are saved only because you have put your faith and trust in Christ and what He has already done for you. The Bible says Christ "saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).

Let me add one other thought. No, you didn't grow up in a Christian family. But now you are part of one, because now you have countless brothers and sisters in Christ, and God is now your Father! Thank God for this, and ask Him to help you learn from them.

No matter who we are or what we have done, God still loves us and wants to forgive us if we will but turn in faith to Christ. This has been your experience—and it can be the experience of every person reading this.  Make an eternal difference in 2010 »  Proclaim the Good News to the world »


----------



## mtnwoman

Y'all can pull as many single verses out of context that you want to....people have made entire religions pulling scipture out of context.

Once again I'll use 

Faith without works is dead...JW's proof that they are right.

Most of us know that scipture alone doesn't mean what it appears to mean. Pulling that one scripture out of context could change everything we believe, if we choose to build our faith on works.

Works comes from the "Jesus" in us...we want to do 'works'. But that scripture standing alone appears to be saying that if you do no works you don't have any faith.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Let's see what another man we know believes to be true
> 
> http://www.billygraham.org/MyAnswer_Article.asp?ArticleID=1705
> 
> 
> BG>>Yes, I would certainly encourage you to talk with your pastor about baptism. Baptism is a public sign that you have now put your faith in Christ and are taking an open stand for Him.
> 
> It also is a *sign* that Jesus has now washed away all your sins. Think of it: You have been cleansed of every sin you've ever committed,because of what Jesus Christ did on the cross for you! You aren't saved because of anything you have done; you are saved only because you have put your faith and trust in Christ and what He has already done for you. The Bible says Christ "saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).




What makes Billy Graham right and Tertullian wrong?


----------



## mtnwoman

As some of y'all say, what are you gonna do with this scripture?


Titus 3
  4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 

 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 

 6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 

 7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 

 8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> What makes Billy Graham right and Tertullian wrong?



Scripture

we are regenerated by the work on the cross, washed clean in that, not water, water is used to outwardly show an inward belief, that the blood cleansed us.
Just like communion, Christ says to eat His flesh and drink His blood....what is our 'sign' of that? Juice/wine and tidbit


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> the new testament as a whole.
> 
> 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9Not of works, lest any man should boast.
> 
> pouring water over somebodys head would be a work, if you apply salvation to it.  we just read "not by works".
> 
> if we could just pour water on someone and they be cleansed why did Jesus die for the sins of the world?
> 
> God would have just told everybody to get baptized and would have saved His Son a humiliating death.
> 
> Luke 7:50
> And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.  He did not say, "they faith has saved you, now go get baptized. He didnt mention being baptized. there was Jesus' chance to tell her she must get baptized and He didint.
> 
> John 3:18
> 
> He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.  baptism not mentioned.
> 
> Acts 2:21
> And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved... nothing about baptism.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:11-15
> 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
> 
> baptism not mentioned
> 
> Hebrews 1:2-4
> 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
> 
> 3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
> 
> our sins are "purged" or washed away by Christ alone. it says right here By Himself...  that means nothing else washes away sins.
> 
> Acts 10:40-48
> 
> 40but God raised him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen. 41He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
> 
> 44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. (they were saved) 45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46For they heard them speaking in tongues[a] and praising God.  (they were saved)
> 
> Then Peter said, 47"Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have." (they were saved) 48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
> 
> as you can plainly see here... the people (Cornelius, etc), heard the Word and believed and received the Holy Spirit... they were saved!!!!!  THEN they got baptized...
> 
> water baptism is just a outward display of an inward transformation...




None of those scriptures says what you said previously.
And all of those scriptures fit very well with New Testament baptism.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> So, can a person just believe and pray to be saved?




What does John 3:16 say?

We are saved by grace, by the blood, it's a free gift, we just have to accept it, that's it.

I was saved and then baptized, not vice versa.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Scripture



Tertullian, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, etc. read the same scriptures and came to a very different conclusion than Billy Graham.  Why pick BG over them?

Do you know of anybody (before the 16th century) who taught that baptism was just a symbol?  (I realize you believe the apostles taught that.  I'm specifically talking about someone who lived between approximately 100 AD and 1500 AD.)


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Titus 3
> 4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
> 
> 5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;



What do you think this is referring to?


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> What do you think this is referring to?



read the next verse?

that's what I'm talking about pulling one verse out of the bible to make an intire doctrine on..the very next verse tells you that it was washing in what happened at the cross which was blood...says nothing about water


----------



## mtnwoman

Verse 16 is y'all's key verse about having to be baptized....
What does it say in the next few verses.

How in the world do you think you can go by 16 and skip the rest? You can't just throw those out, it either is all in word of God and you believe it all or you don't.


Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> read the next verse?
> 
> that's what I'm talking about pulling one verse out of the bible to make an intire doctrine on..the very next verse tells you that it was washing in what happened at the cross which was blood...says nothing about water



Do you know of anybody (before the 16th century) who believed that? (I realize you believe the apostles taught that. I'm specifically talking about someone who lived between approximately 100 AD and 1500 AD.)


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Tertullian, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement, Origen, etc. read the same scriptures and came to a very different conclusion than Billy Graham.  Why pick BG over them?
> 
> Do you know of anybody (before the 16th century) who taught that baptism was just a symbol?  (I realize you believe the apostles taught that.  I'm specifically talking about someone who lived between approximately 100 AD and 1500 AD.)



Why pick BG over them, because he's correctly dividing the word and not pulling one verse out here and there to build an entire doctrine.

The bibleman says that you don't need to keep praying for forgiveness because when you do you are putting Christ back on the cross, so I guess we no longer need the Lord's prayer regarding forgiveness...
I suppose then that you believe that because the bibleman said so?


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Do you know of anybody (before the 16th century) who believed that? (I realize you believe the apostles taught that. I'm specifically talking about someone who lived between approximately 100 AD and 1500 AD.)



John the Baptist said I wash you in water, but He will wash you in the HS.

Jesus said eat my flesh and drink my blood, but they didn't really do that, just like we really aren't washed in the blood physically.
When I take communion, in my spirit I believe I am taking in Christ, I am partaking in His blood shed and the flesh that suffered....it's an outward sign/jesture/symbol representing the flesh and blood of Christ.
Water is representing the blood....the blood saves us, not the water.
The blood is what washed my sins away not the water.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Why pick BG over them, because he's correctly dividing the word and not pulling one verse out here and there to build an entire doctrine.



How do you know he's correctly dividing the word?  Because he agrees with you?  Of course, he agrees with you.  He's a Baptist minister! 




mtnwoman said:


> I suppose then that you believe that because the bibleman said so?



I agree with the "bibleman" on very little.  I used him as an example earlier only because he realized that his guest was correct:  NOBODY in the first 1,000 years of church history believed that John 3:5 meant anything other than baptism.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> John the Baptist said I wash you in water, but He will wash you in the HS.
> 
> Jesus said eat my flesh and drink my blood, but they didn't really do that, just like we really aren't washed in the blood physically.
> When I take communion, in my spirit I believe I am taking in Christ, I am partaking in His blood shed and the flesh that suffered....it's an outward sign/jesture/symbol representing the flesh and blood of Christ.
> Water is representing the blood....the blood saves us, not the water.
> The blood is what washed my sins away not the water.



You didn't answer my question.

Wow! Six pages of this mess!


----------



## BeenHuntn

mtnwoman said:


> John the Baptist said I wash you in water, but He will wash you in the HS.
> 
> Jesus said eat my flesh and drink my blood, but they didn't really do that, just like we really aren't washed in the blood physically.
> When I take communion, in my spirit I believe I am taking in Christ, I am partaking in His blood shed and the flesh that suffered....it's an outward sign/jesture/symbol representing the flesh and blood of Christ.
> Water is representing the blood....the blood saves us, not the water.
> The blood is what washed my sins away not the water.




you go girl...


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Do you know of anybody (before the 16th century) who believed that? (I realize you believe the apostles taught that. I'm specifically talking about someone who lived between approximately 100 AD and 1500 AD.)



Well, I dunno, I'm just reading the text. I don't know what all they believed during that period, isn't that when we had the crusades when a bunch of so called Christians went around killing everyone who wouldn't believe?

Here's a good starting place, I'm sorry I don't exactly agree with all the supposedly Christians did in that time frame. Looks like everyone was confused to me.

And there's plenty more about the crusades, this is just general and how and what Christians believed during that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> You didn't answer my question.
> 
> Wow! Six pages of this mess!



What's your point?

You want everyone to answer your questions, eh? You haven't answered mine either.

And why is it a mess? because everyone doesn't agree with you?

Nothing about discussing scripture is ever a mess to me, maybe you need to be renewed in your thought process, got a water spray bottle? That'll fix ya right up, water always washes away our thought process and what goes on in our heart.


----------



## mtnwoman

Lord Jesus, please help people's unbelief that your blood on the cross did it ALL.


----------



## centerpin fan

The crusades came much later than Tertullian, Irenaeus, etc.

I'll repeat what I said earlier:  the early church writings are not scripture, but they are great _commentaries_ on scripture.  You can learn a lot about what the early church believed and taught.

The last time I went into a Christian bookstore, they had lots more than Bibles for sale.  People read 21st century writers like Charles Stanley, John Macarthur, Max Lucado, etc.  What's wrong with reading some 2nd and 3rd century writers?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> What's your point?



You answered me in a subsequent post.




mtnwoman said:


> You want everyone to answer your questions, eh? You haven't answered mine either.



Which one did I miss? 




mtnwoman said:


> And why is it a mess? because everyone doesn't agree with you?



I was being facetious.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Lord Jesus, please help people's unbelief that your blood on the cross did it ALL.



I guarantee you that Ronnie, whome, and I all agree that Christ "did it all" on the cross.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> The crusades came much later than Tertullian, Irenaeus, etc.
> 
> I'll repeat what I said earlier:  the early church writings are not scripture, but they are great _commentaries_ on scripture.  You can learn a lot about what the early church believed and taught.
> 
> The last time I went into a Christian bookstore, they had lots more than Bibles for sale.  People read 21st century writers like Charles Stanley, John Macarthur, Max Lucado, etc.  What's wrong with reading some 2nd and 3rd century writers?



I don't read any of that...I do bible study only.

My dad had a couple of nervous breakdowns (literally) trying figure out which of these writers were right.....I've ask God to keep it simple for me and let me stick to the verses that I read.

I only quoted the BG thing because some of y'all were saying what all these other people were saying.

None of these writers can sway my belief, that the blood or Christ washed my sins away...that's it, that's all it took and because I believe that I am saved, redeemed, bought back by the blood of the Lamb, I am saved.

Water baptism nailed down nothing for me, anyone can be baptized.

Tell me everyone that the disciples baptized, like the 3000 fully understood that their sins were really washed away by the blood?
Half of us don't even get that today.


----------



## WTM45

mtnwoman said:


> Well, I dunno, I'm just reading the text. I don't know what all they believed during that period, isn't that when we had the crusades when a bunch of so called Christians went around killing everyone who wouldn't believe?
> 
> Here's a good starting place, I'm sorry I don't exactly agree with all the supposedly Christians did in that time frame. Looks like everyone was confused to me.
> 
> And there's plenty more about the crusades, this is just general and how and what Christians believed during that time.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades



So many simply "toe their party line" especially the further out you go in the Baptist lineage toward the Pentecostals and the Holiness gang.  They know nothing of history.  Some refuse to even acknowledge it.

Don't fall into the trap of "I know everything there is to know" and "It must be right.  It's what Luther, Calvin, Graham, Roberts..."

Learn where your religious belief system came from.  Learn how it was shaped.  Learn how your holy book was compiled.  Know the history.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I guarantee you that Ronnie, whome, and I all agree that Christ "did it all" on the cross.



Then why are you saying that you have to be water baptized then to complete what Jesus did on the cross?
He either did it all on the cross or there is something that we MUST do, too. I'm saying nothing, y'all are saying water baptism.

What Jesus did on the cross washed my sins away, when I accepted that I was saved. Water baptism just shows that I did accept it....water represents the cleansing blood of the lamb. Water alone represents nothing least the blood come first....2000yrs ago it came.

Course you can't go by what I say, I don't believe holy water alone blessed by a priest does anything either.


----------



## centerpin fan

WTM45 said:


> Learn where your religious belief system came from.  Learn how it was shaped.  Learn how your holy book was compiled.  Know the history.



Yes!


----------



## WTM45

It's OK.
Only Baptists are gonna be in Heaven anyway.  
Everyone else will have to "sneak" in quietly!


----------



## mtnwoman

WTM45 said:


> So many simply "toe their party line" especially the further out you go in the Baptist lineage toward the Pentecostals and the Holiness gang.  They know nothing of history.  Some refuse to even acknowledge it.
> 
> Don't fall into the trap of "I know everything there is to know" and "It must be right.  It's what Luther, Calvin, Graham, Roberts..."
> 
> Learn where your religious belief system came from.  Learn how it was shaped.  Learn how your holy book was compiled.  Know the history.



Now let me think back a second here.....the only post I posted was Billy Graham, how many others posts are here about what other MEN wrote? I've stuck to the text this whole time, some of y'all are the ones bringing other folks and what they thought into this.

Sheesh, you can bring up every person in history and I bring up one and you tell me we shouldn't do that??? That don't seem fair now does it?

Alrighty then, there's a lot of doublemindedness going on around here, ya know?

Jesus did it ALL on the cross, but YOU have to be baptized to be saved....so He didn't do it all...there's something you gotta do besides believe.

And believe me, I expect answers to these questions in this post, too.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Then why are you saying that you have to be water baptized then to complete what Jesus did on the cross?



Water baptism doesn't _complete_ what He did.  That's just how you _accept_ what He did.  Water baptism is how you are "grafted into" what He did.  (That's my paraphrase of Romans 6.)


----------



## WTM45

mtnwoman said:


> And believe me, I expect answers to these questions in this post, too.



HA!

Thousands of dollars in tuition and books, hours in lecture, hours in the library, days in reading and years of searching might not provide that!
The reason?  There just might be as many different interpretations as there are stars in the sky!


----------



## mtnwoman

WTM45 said:


> It's OK.
> Only Baptists are gonna be in Heaven anyway.
> Everyone else will have to "sneak" in quietly!



No one will be able to sneak in...
But if'n you ain't baptized you won't get it.

But I've been baptized so I'm good...I had to get water baptized to prove to myself that I was really saved, what Jesus did on the cross wasn't quite enough.


----------



## WTM45

mtnwoman said:


> No one will be able to sneak in...
> But if'n you ain't baptized you won't get it.
> 
> But I've been baptized so I'm good...I had to get water baptized to prove to myself that I was really saved, what Jesus did on the cross wasn't quite enough.



A couple of faiths take care of that little technical issue right up front!
Get them babies wet!


----------



## mtnwoman

WTM45 said:


> HA!
> 
> Thousands of dollars in tuition and books, hours in lecture, hours in the library, days in reading and years of searching might not provide that!
> The reason?  There just might be as many different interpretations as there are stars in the sky!



You got that right, that's why I stick to scripture and avoid reading what all these other men think, or else I'd be peddling down the street door to door, going to confession, crawling to mass, sitting on the church door step, getting baptized every other day since I sin everyday, speaking in tongues, snake handling, falling out in the spirit, sprinkling my grandkids into salvation, getting blessed by the Pope, burying a statue of St Joseph in my front yard to help sell my house, believing I'm included in the 144,000....and on and on. That really would drive you insane, trying to figure out which 'men' have given you the right info.

And I'm not belittling any of that, if that's your conviction.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> I don't read any of that...I do bible study only.
> 
> My dad had a couple of nervous breakdowns (literally) trying figure out which of these writers were right.....I've ask God to keep it simple for me and let me stick to the verses that I read.
> 
> I only quoted the BG thing because some of y'all were saying what all these other people were saying.
> 
> None of these writers can sway my belief, that the blood or Christ washed my sins away...that's it, that's all it took and because I believe that I am saved, redeemed, bought back by the blood of the Lamb, I am saved.
> 
> Water baptism nailed down nothing for me, anyone can be baptized.
> 
> Tell me everyone that the disciples baptized, like the 3000 fully understood that their sins were really washed away by the blood?
> Half of us don't even get that today.



Do a bible study of "An outward sign of inner faith" and tell me what you come up with... I bet it would be ZERO... WHY, cause it isn't taught that way.

Maybe you should do a bible study on how to receive the benefits of Christ's death on the cross and his blood.

What, now you're speculating on the 3000 that were baptized???? HMMMMM....


----------



## WTM45

mtnwoman said:


> You got that right, that's why I stick to scripture and avoid reading what all these other men think, or else I'd be peddling down the street door to door, going to confession, crawling to mass, sitting on the church door step, getting baptized every other day since I sin everyday, speaking in tongues, snake handling, falling out in the spirit, sprinkling my grandkids into salvation, getting blessed by the Pope, burying a statue of St Joseph in my front yard to help sell my house, believing I'm included in the 144,000....and on and on. That really would drive you insane, trying to figure out which 'men' have giving you the right info.



No fear you might miss something important while relying on your own interpretations and views?


----------



## whome

Obviously, no baby should be baptized.... maybe that would be another thread, but I don't think it would be as long as this one. Who's baptizing babies anyway??? 
And just because you are baptized doesn't mean "I'm in."


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Water baptism doesn't _complete_ what He did.  That's just how you _accept_ what He did.  Water baptism is how you are "grafted into" what He did.  (That's my paraphrase of Romans 6.)



No I'm spiritually grafted into the vine, nothing I do in the flesh will graft me into the vine....baptism outwardly shows what's going on on the inside, but baptism is not proof to us that we are saved, we get baptized 'because' we are saved first.

Who are you trying to prove to that you're saved by baptism? That's what I don't get? Christ hasn't already accepted you before you're baptized? You're not in until you get baptized? You aren't forgiven until you're baptized?

I was saved first, then baptized, and outward showing in the flesh of being baptized by the blood on the inside...it's the blood that does the work.


----------



## whome

Saying baptism isn't necessary at all or mean zero is not taught in the bible. 
When was Saul saved in your opinion? Was it on the road?.... was it when he was praying? WHEN?
Can I just say a little prayer and be saved???


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> And just because you are baptized doesn't mean "I'm in."



Why? doesn't it wash your sins away? That's what y'all are saying. It takes water baptism to wash your sins away or you're not in, no matter what you believe on the inside...no matter if you believe that Jesus is who He says He is and He knows our heart, you are not saved if you're not baptized in water.

Oh Lord help us.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> Why? doesn't it wash your sins away? That's what y'all are saying. It takes water baptism to wash your sins away or you're not in, no matter what you believe on the inside...no matter if you believe that Jesus is who He says He is and He knows our heart, you are not saved if you're not baptized in water.
> 
> Oh Lord help us.



I'll ask again...
When was Saul saved in your opinion? Was it on the road?.... was it when he was praying? WHEN? 
So you ARE saying...Can I just say a little prayer and be saved???


----------



## WTM45

whome said:


> Obviously, no baby should be baptized.... maybe that would be another thread, but I don't think it would be as long as this one. Who's baptizing babies anyway???



It would become just another mud slingin' between Protestants and Catholics.
Moderators would have to reach for the Tums and Pepcids.

Too bad most don't have any true idea where their teachings came from and how they have been shaped by the interpretations of others.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> Saying baptism isn't necessary at all or mean zero is not taught in the bible.
> When was Saul saved in your opinion? Was it on the road?.... was it when he was praying? WHEN?
> Can I just say a little prayer and be saved???



It is not necessary for salvation...the blood did that.

Can you say a prayer and be saved....well a lot of people use the sinners pray.
But yes you can be saved by praying...how else would you be saved?

For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son, and whosever believes that will be saved...

That's it, that's all you have to do to be saved....Lord help you if you don't believe that...Lord help you if you believe that there's something you can do to be saved.

Thru Christ we desire baptism, we desire communion, we desire to do other works, and those things come under the fruit of the spirit, and outward showing of an inward work.

Do you believe that you literally have to be washed in the blood of the Lamb to be forgiven?
I believe spiritually we do, but not physically, we use water to represent the blood in cleansing. Nothing about our flesh will ever be saved, not even by water.

One cell of one drop of the blood of Jesus has run thru my veins like a pac man eating up all my sins, all my infirmities, all my greed, all my price, all my sickness, it's the blood, the life is in the blood. Not the water.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> It is not necessary for salvation...the blood did that.
> 
> Can you say a prayer and be saved....well a lot of people use the sinners pray.
> But yes you can be saved by praying...how else would you be saved?
> 
> For God so loved the world that He GAVE His only begotten Son, and whosever believes that will be saved...
> 
> That's it, that's all you have to do to be saved....Lord help you if you don't believe that...Lord help you if you believe that there's something you can do to be saved.
> 
> Thru Christ we desire baptism, we desire communion, we desire to do other works, and those things come under the fruit of the spirit, and outward showing of an inward work.
> 
> Do you believe that you literally have to be washed in the blood of the Lamb to be forgiven?
> I believe spiritually we do, but not physically, we use water to represent the blood in cleansing. Nothing about our flesh will ever be saved, not even by water.
> 
> One cell of one drop of the blood of Jesus has run thru my veins like a pac man eating up all my sins, all my infirmities, all my greed, all my price, all my sickness, it's the blood, the life is in the blood. Not the water.



I believe, according to the bible, that the blood of christ saves us... and it is through baptism that we come into contact with his blood.... and it is through baptism that our sins are forgiven and washed away... not cause that is what I "think or feel," but because that is what is written in the bible.  

So, when was Saul save????


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> I'll ask again...
> When was Saul saved in your opinion? Was it on the road?.... was it when he was praying? WHEN?
> So you ARE saying...Can I just say a little prayer and be saved???



Christ chose Paul/Saul, just like He chooses us. Paul was clueless, Jesus snatched Him into salvation...Paul had to believe first, if He didn't believe and accept Christ's calling he never would've been baptized.
Baptism in water is an expression of being baptised in the cleansing power of the blood.
First comes salvation then baptism.
Yes there are some the expect salvation because they get baptized, but it doesn't work that way....salvation first then baptism.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Who are you trying to prove to that you're saved by baptism?



No, I'm saying you're saved _at_ baptism.  You're saved because you are then united with Christ (Romans 6.)




mtnwoman said:


> Christ hasn't already accepted you before you're baptized? You're not in until you get baptized? You aren't forgiven until you're baptized?



Nope, nope, and nope.




mtnwoman said:


> I was saved first, then baptized, and outward showing in the flesh of being baptized by the blood on the inside...it's the blood that does the work.



This goes back to my very first post in this thread:  nobody would have made this statement before the Protestant Reformation.  Luther certainly wouldn't have.  I'm not sure about Calvin.


----------



## mtnwoman

Do you think if Saul was walking down the road and a baptism was going on down by the river on the side of the road and he went down there and said, ya know I think I'll just try this baptism thing and see if it changes me....do you think baptism would've changed him?

Just answer yes or no.

I don't, not until his heart was changed would he believe he was a changed man, baptism was an expression of understanding that the blood is what cleanses us and that water symbolized that blood...it's the blood y'all the blood that saves us.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm saying you're saved _at_ baptism.  You're saved because you are then united with Christ (Romans 6.)



Well I was saved before I was baptized, or I never would've accepted baptism for what it really meant.

So you're saying people are saved at baptism and not before? Jesus doesn't save you? Baptism does?


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> Do you think if Saul was walking down the road and a baptism was going on down by the river on the side of the road and he went down there and said, ya know I think I'll just try this baptism thing and see if it changes me....do you think baptism would've changed him?
> 
> Just answer yes or no.
> 
> I don't, not until his heart was changed would he believe he was a changed man, baptism was an expression of understanding that the blood is what cleanses us and that water symbolized that blood...it's the blood y'all the blood that saves us.


 
Why don't you go read about the conversion of Paul/Saul in Acts 9 and again in Acts 22, so you can give some sort of biblical answer... and not some hypothetical babble


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> This goes back to my very first post in this thread:  nobody would have made this statement before the Protestant Reformation.  Luther certainly wouldn't have.  I'm not sure about Calvin.



No one has to make the statement, it just isn't that hard.

We are baptized into Christ because of the bloodshed on the cross, if we believe. We express our belief (which we already have) when we are baptized in water....buried and resurrected...we are taking on the blood of Christ by using water and not blood...just like eating His flesh and drinking His blood, we don't really do that in church, we use something else to symbolize the blood and flesh, like grape juice and a tidbit.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> Why don't you go read about the conversion of Paul/Saul in Acts 9 and again in Acts 22, so you can give some sort of biblical answer... and not some hypothetical babble



Acts 9

 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 

 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 

 19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 


*Thanks for bringing that scripture up. He received the HS spirit and then he was baptized. He didn't get baptized to receive the HS. He believed first, Christ called him and was saved from his old evil ways right there on the road when he said Lord what will you have me do...Saul believed then, later baptized. Not baptized first then believed in the Lord.*

Babble?? Watch out your fruit is showing, you'd better tend it, looks like pride and judgement has weeded it's way into your garden.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> So you're saying people are saved at baptism and not before? Jesus doesn't save you? Baptism does?



_Jesus_ saves you _at_ baptism.

You are saved when you are united with him.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> No one has to make the statement, it just isn't that hard.



No one had to make the statement _because no one believed it._


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> Why don't you go read about the conversion of Paul/Saul in Acts 9 and again in Acts 22, so you can give some sort of biblical answer... and not some hypothetical babble



And by the way, you weren't saved by accepting Christ's calling before you got baptized?


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> No one had to make the statement _because no one believed it._



You never answered by question on this, do you believe all or only part of this scripture is true? That's a yes or no question...you either believe it all or not.
You can't just pull out one verse and use that as a foundation of what the disciples are telling us, they said ALL of this.

Yes or No

Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.

17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 

18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


----------



## WTM45

centerpin fan said:


> This goes back to my very first post in this thread:  nobody would have made this statement before the Protestant Reformation.  Luther certainly wouldn't have.  I'm not sure about Calvin.



Correct.
Calvin promoted infant baptism just as the Jews promoted circumcision.  It's pretty well documented that it was common for infants to be baptised as far back as 200AD.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> Acts 9
> 
> 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
> 
> 19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
> 
> 
> *Thanks for bringing that scripture up. He received the HS spirit and then he was baptized. He didn't get baptized to receive the HS. He believed first, Christ called him and was saved from his old evil ways right there on the road when he said Lord what will you have me do...Saul believed then, later baptized. Not baptized first then believed in the Lord.*
> 
> Babble?? Watch out your fruit is showing, you'd better tend it, looks like pride and judgement has weeded it's way into your garden.




"saul believed then, later baptized. Not bapitzed first then believed in the lord."
and notice what Acts 22:16 says.... " And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."

Where is the washing away of sins of Saul/Paul in this passage: before baptism or a result that follows from baptism? 

Saul had seen Jesus on the road, clearly believed in Him, and was willing to obey Him (22:5-10; 9:3-6). He had even been praying (9:9,11). If anyone could be saved before baptism, it would be Saul. Was he saved? 

Jesus had said Saul should go into the city and would be told what he MUST do (9:6). Ananias came and told him to be baptized and wash away his sins.


----------



## WTM45

mtnwoman said:


> Christ chose Paul/Saul, just like He chooses us. Paul was clueless, Jesus snatched Him into salvation...



Then there is no need for the individual to believe or state anything of their own doing.  No belief or acceptance of anything is necessary.  It's just simply being a part of a "chosen few" like the Jews believe.

But don't forget to get dunked, unless your parents made sure that was taken care of before you could walk!

Hmmmmmm............


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> You never answered by question on this, do you believe all or only part of this scripture is true? That's a yes or no question...you either believe it all or not.
> You can't just pull out one verse and use that as a foundation of what the disciples are telling us, they said ALL of this.
> 
> Yes or No
> 
> Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)
> 
> 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
> 
> 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> 
> 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



I answered you way back in post # 113.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> You never answered by question on this, do you believe all or only part of this scripture is true? That's a yes or no question...you either believe it all or not.
> You can't just pull out one verse and use that as a foundation of what the disciples are telling us, they said ALL of this.
> 
> Yes or No
> 
> Mark 16:16-18 (King James Version)
> 
> 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be condemned.
> 
> 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
> 
> 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.



The bible tells us that all miraculous abilities/gifts and the like are no more....


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> _Jesus_ saves you _at_ baptism.
> 
> You are saved when you are united with him.



Yes you are saved when you are united thru Him, not thru baptism.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Paul had to believe this first, then he was saved and then he was baptized in water. Blood really washes our sins away not water, you have to believe Jesus died for our sins and shed His blood or water will do nothing for you. It's the blood that saved us and washed our sins away.
Water just represents that blood washing...you have to accept the washing in the blood for our sins, then you are saved. Baptism doesn't show Jesus that we believe, doesn't show Him we are washed, He already washed us.

We are admitting we are saved to the world by being baptized in water, saying I am His and He is mine, which really happend before we stepped into the water.

If it was the water that could save us, then why have all the blood shed, why didn't people just get baptized into salvation if that's what it takes?


----------



## whome

What about 1 Peter 3:20-21.... what does that mean?

It shows us how Noah and his family were saved "by (or through) water." The flood water destroyed the wicked, but it also saved Noah because it bore the ark up, delivering (saving) Noah from death. 

This illustrates the fact that baptism is what saves us. This does not mean that we are physically washing dirt from our bodies. The power is not in the water but in the death and resurrection of Jesus. But we contact that blood in baptism


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, that's what James 2 says.  I'm certainly not a JW, though.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The early church believed that these gifts passed away.  So, no I don't follow that.  (I realize that charismatic gifts are a whole 'nuther subject, though.)*So they kept one third of the scripture and heck with the rest? Could it possibly be that we now know that it was the blood and not the water that saved us? If the other signs have passed away, why not baptism, we all know it's the blood that saves us, not water.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think Christ did it all on the cross.  There are no exceptions.  There is nothing I can do to merit salvation.  Baptism is merely the point in time when we participate in what Jesus "did":  He died, He was buried, and He was resurrected.  I believe the clearest expression of this is in Romans 6.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I appreciate the spirit in which you ask the questions.



Well that's not exactly a yes or no anwer, ya know 
You believe one verse is in effect but not the next two?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> You believe one verse is in effect but not the next two?



Yep!

Most of the Christian world believes that the charismatic gifts died out very early in church history.  That is just one area that is not practiced today (except by various charismatic churches.)  Here are some other examples:

I Cor 11:5-6 talks about women covering their heads when prophesying.  Do the women in your church do that?  Do the women in any church you know do that?

I Cor 15:29-30 talks about being "baptized for the dead".  Does your church or any church you know of do that?  I think only the Mormons still practice baptism for the dead.

The fact that I don't believe in snake handling does not invalidate the rest of that passage or all the others on baptism.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> why didn't people just get baptized into salvation if that's what it takes?



They did -- all through the book of Acts.

I don't know if I can say it any plainer than I did back in post #289.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> _Jesus_ saves you _at_ baptism.
> 
> You are saved when you are united with him.



Scripture please...


----------



## BeenHuntn

mtnwoman said:


> Well that's not exactly a yes or no anwer, ya know
> You believe one verse is in effect but not the next two?



mtnwoman, these guys are not gonna be convinced and you probably have a headache by now... they gave me my headache by 100pm today.

all you can do is pray that they will be saved in spite of their baptism errors...


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Yes you are saved when you are united thru Him, not thru baptism.
> 
> Romans 10:9
> That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
> 
> 
> Paul had to believe this first, then he was saved and then he was baptized in water. Blood really washes our sins away not water, you have to believe Jesus died for our sins and shed His blood or water will do nothing for you. It's the blood that saved us and washed our sins away.
> Water just represents that blood washing...you have to accept the washing in the blood for our sins, then you are saved. Baptism doesn't show Jesus that we believe, doesn't show Him we are washed, He already washed us.
> 
> We are admitting we are saved to the world by being baptized in water, saying I am His and He is mine, which really happend before we stepped into the water.
> 
> If it was the water that could save us, then why have all the blood shed, why didn't people just get baptized into salvation if that's what it takes?



Annie, pretty much everything you've written above is unscriptural.  It sounds great and it is stirring to read, but it just is not scriptural.

It's important that the books of the Bible be looked at and studied in context.

1.  The 4 Gospels are written pre-Christianity.  The Gospels detail Jesus' coming into the world, His ministry, and death and resurrected.  They are God's answer to the prophets.

2.  The book of Acts is about Christ's establishment of the church.  He uses His apostles, and He uses the Holy Spirit to do that.  Acts is the brings of the world to God thru Christ.  First, the bringing of Jews to Christ.  Eventually, the bringing of non-jews(gentiles) to Christ, thru Paul, Peter and Cornelius.
Acts includes the spreading of the Gospel and the comforting of the young church.

3.  Most everything else, all the letters and 1,2,3 John, Jude, 1,2 Peter, etc are books of additional instructions for Christians.  Everything contained in them is written for the Christian's additional instruction.

Example:
The book of Acts tells how Christians were brought into salvation and added to God's kingdom.

The book of Romans was not written to detail how a person comes to Christ, but what coming to Christ should do to that person.
Romans 6 isn't written to provide the 'when' and 'where' of getting baptized.  But Romans 6 does tell what baptism has already done to a Christian.

In Matt 26 Jesus gave His apostles instructions on how to bring the lost to Him.  You know what it says:  "Go into all the world........."
No one else ever heard those words of Jesus until Christ made and arranged for His story to be told in Acts 2.  There, in Jerusalem, the Gospel was preached and people responded.  They responded by responding to those very words that Jesus had spoken to the apostles several weeks earlier.

Now, in Rome, and Corinth, and other places, there were Holy scriptures written to further inform, teach, and educate those very Christians who accepted Christ there in Jerusalem in Acts 2.

My point, The book of Romans was written to people who had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
The same for Corinth and Thessolanica.

Shew, this is very tiring.



Forgive me for assuming you might not have already considered the above.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> What about 1 Peter 3:20-21.... what does that mean?
> 
> It shows us how Noah and his family were saved "by (or through) water." The flood water destroyed the wicked, but it also saved Noah because it bore the ark up, delivering (saving) Noah from death.
> 
> This illustrates the fact that baptism is what saves us. This does not mean that we are physically washing dirt from our bodies. The power is not in the water but in the death and resurrection of Jesus. But we contact that blood in baptism




Glad you went there.
First off we didn't have the blood in the OT, except for the lambs that were sacrificed for remissions of sin, is that correct? Is that what day of atonement is about? the remissions of sin by the blood of an innocent lamb.


The water saved Noah from a physical death though, right? And when God told Noah to build the ark, at that point Noah was saved because he believed or he wouldn't have built the ark. He believed first and was saved before the water came, he wasn't saved because the water came.

What saved the children of Israel in egypt when the death angel came thru? The blood on the doorpost? They killed an innocent lamb(like Jesus) and painted the doorpost with that blood, therefore they were covered under the blood, the symbolic blood of the Lamb of God, the saving blood.

Once we got that blood from the cross, that's what we use for remission of sins...water is symbolic of that blood, just like the lamb's blood in the OT is symbolic of the blood of Christ, yet the come.

The NT is the OT fulfilled....everything that God did from Abraham almost sacrificing his son as a blood sacrifice down to where Isaiah says He will be denyed came to fullness in the NT. Jesus says it is finished, He did all the works, He shed all the saving blood and forgave is for our sins 2000 yrs ago, if we just believe it.

Should we obey Jesus and do the things He wants us to do, yes of course we should.
But still He isn't saying you must do anything else to be saved except to believe in Me and who I am.
No one will come to the Father except thru Me.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Forgive me for assuming you might not have already considered the above.



Don't worry, I never take anything you say as any kind of an insult or demeaning in any kind of way.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Yep!
> 
> Most of the Christian world believes that the charismatic gifts died out very early in church history.  That is just one area that is not practiced today (except by various charismatic churches.)  Here are some other examples:
> 
> I Cor 11:5-6 talks about women covering their heads when prophesying.  Do the women in your church do that?  Do the women in any church you know do that?
> 
> I Cor 15:29-30 talks about being "baptized for the dead".  Does your church or any church you know of do that?  I think only the Mormons still practice baptism for the dead.
> 
> The fact that I don't believe in snake handling does not invalidate the rest of that passage or all the others on baptism.



Once again, I'm asking YOU, not the people of the early church. When you say that you believe every word, do you really?
How can you tell me which scriptures to pick and choose to prove my point because of some people in the early church don't believe such and such?

You either believe it and obey it all or you realize that it was a process.
In the end of all those teachings what does Christ tell us is the most important things we need to do? Does He say for my sake get baptized, speak in tongues, handle snakes, wear a scarf, don't wear jewelry, don't boast....well yeah He says all that stuff, can we pick and choose which we want to follow? Or can we come to understand that when Jesus used examples, all kinds of examples of how we should do things. Are we condemned because we don't say the Lord's prayer everyday? Some folks believe we are. Do some people still think women should wear things on their heads and wear no makeup and no jewelry...yes they do and they truly believe that you are not saved.

My grandmother told me if I danced, I'd get thrown into a hot hot place, my grandpa said oh you cut your hair, you're doomed. My other grandmother, you need to go the church everytime the door is open because Christ said to gather together.....all legalism. Jesus is concerned for my spirit, not what I wear, etc....of course I try not to be 'vulgar' in dance or dress because I'm housing the HS.

Jesus says my yoke is light all you have to do is believe and before my death you'll be washed in water and after my death you'll be washed in the blood of the lamb...JTB basically says that...I (JTB) baptize you in water HE (Jesus) will baptize you in the Holy Spirit...at the point we accept the HS (Jesus) into our hearts we are saved, not at the point of water baptism.

He showed us how to pray, He expressed to us how we could be cleansed of our sins thru His blood, buried with Him resurrected with Him, by His blood, because of His blood.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> Scripture please...



See Ronnie's post # 114.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> See Ronnie's post # 114.



cf, did Jesus baptize anyone?


----------



## mtnwoman

The JW's (poor guys I pick on them a lot)....can stand in your living room and quote one verse after another to prove their point, leaving half of the passage out that they don't want to acknowledge or accept. They can say well that's past away....alrighty then, so parts of the Bible we don't even need...we can just toss it aside.

Ever talk to one? they never use the entire scripture, they pick and choose to back their belief.

I believe it's the church of Christ that believes something similar, that it's by works....because after all that one verse they pick out says, faith without works is dead. And when you try to tell them that you are saved by grace and faith in Christ and that He is who He says He is, then they come up with a single verse out of the bible or a string of single verses and they could possibly make a valid point, if you don't know when the entire text says.

Anyway, I'm tired, too.

I'm baptized, I believe everyone should be baptized to experience what it is like to feel your sins washed away yet understand that you are really buried and resurrected with Christ as you are being cleansed by His blood.

But when someone tells me I accepted Christ last year as my Saviour and He came into my heart and my life is changed and I'm a new person.....I'm not going to tell them, well if you aren't baptized I hate to tell you, you're mistaken, you couldn't possibly be a part of Christ because you need to be baptized to really be part of Him. Y'all can, but I'm not gonna do it. I would tell them to be baptized, but I'm not gonna say that's what will save them...that's just wrong.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Once again, I'm asking YOU, not the people of the early church. When you say that you believe every word, do you really?
> How can you tell me which scriptures to pick and choose to prove my point because of some people in the early church don't believe such and such?



I'm not talking about the early church.  I'm saying most churches _today_ don't practice snake handling, head covering, or baptism for the dead. 




mtnwoman said:


> can we pick and choose which we want to follow?



I'm not saying to pick and choose what you want to believe.  I'm saying many churches today believe that gifts like tongues and the ability to handle snakes _passed away_.  They hold to this view _regardless_ of their position on baptism.


----------



## mtnwoman

BeenHuntn said:


> cf, did Jesus baptize anyone?



Yeah us, but it was in the blood.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> cf, did Jesus baptize anyone?



Not that I'm aware of.

Did his disciples ever baptize anyone?

Here's an even better question:  Did any of His disciples ever tell anyone to repent and then say, "Hey, you know that baptism thing?  It's really not a big deal.  It's only a symbol of what just happened to you.  But, if you get a chance in the next month or so, go talk to your pastor about it."


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not talking about the early church.  I'm saying most churches _today_ don't practice snake handling, head covering, or baptism for the dead. *Well I don't either. But it's one scripture away from the verse your using about baptism...it says evidence of those things prove you're save...so you chose the baptism verse to follow but the rest doesn't apply to you?*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not saying to pick and choose what you want to believe.  I'm saying many churches today believe that gifts like tongues and the ability to handle snakes _passed away_.  They hold to this view _regardless_ of their position on baptism.



Exactly, that's my point. I know they believe those things are passed away....so in 3 verses you are to be baptized as evidence of salvation and also speak in tongues/or interpret tongues/ or handle serpents/ or drink poison, yet they choose not to believe any of that is evidence except the baptism part....is that right to dismiss some but not all?

I'm not sure about tongues, don't do it, don't handle snakes as evidence, but some people do. Do I think they should....uh not necessarily, because I don't believe it proves we are saved, same as baptism. 

Trust me I'd love to think I had the power of the HS so strong inside me that I could speak in tongues and that I'd never be harmed by snakes or poison, but I don't have that power, neither do I have the power to save myself by choosing baptism in water. My baptism nor my choice in baptism doesn't save me, it's the blood that saves me, I'm saved before I get to the river or I wouldn't even believe in baptism.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> Not that I'm aware of.
> 
> Did his disciples ever baptize anyone?
> 
> Here's an even better question:  Did any of His disciples ever tell anyone to repent and then say, "Hey, you know that baptism thing?  It's really not a big deal.  It's only a symbol of what just happened to you.  But, if you get a chance in the next month or so, go talk to your pastor about it."



No but I'm pretty sure they didn't want to say, well ya know Christ will shed His blood for you and you'll be washed in the blood for repentence of your sins, which is what they were called to believe (Jesus work on the cross is what did the cleansing)

I'm pretty sure Christ didn't say here drink me, eat me and pass around flesh and blood, He used something else symbolic.

There's just something about blood that in the flesh, people don't want to drink or bathe in. 
ONLY because we understand what the blood means are we willing to do it in the spirit of Christ.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Annie, pretty much everything you've written above is unscriptural.  It sounds great and it is stirring to read, but it just is not scriptural.
> 
> It's important that the books of the Bible be looked at and studied in context.
> 
> 1.  The 4 Gospels are written pre-Christianity.  The Gospels detail Jesus' coming into the world, His ministry, and death and resurrected.  They are God's answer to the prophets.
> 
> 2.  The book of Acts is about Christ's establishment of the church.  He uses His apostles, and He uses the Holy Spirit to do that.  Acts is the brings of the world to God thru Christ.  First, the bringing of Jews to Christ.  Eventually, the bringing of non-jews(gentiles) to Christ, thru Paul, Peter and Cornelius.
> Acts includes the spreading of the Gospel and the comforting of the young church.
> 
> 3.  Most everything else, all the letters and 1,2,3 John, Jude, 1,2 Peter, etc are books of additional instructions for Christians.  Everything contained in them is written for the Christian's additional instruction.
> 
> Example:
> The book of Acts tells how Christians were brought into salvation and added to God's kingdom.
> 
> The book of Romans was not written to detail how a person comes to Christ, but what coming to Christ should do to that person.
> Romans 6 isn't written to provide the 'when' and 'where' of getting baptized.  But Romans 6 does tell what baptism has already done to a Christian.
> 
> In Matt 26 Jesus gave His apostles instructions on how to bring the lost to Him.  You know what it says:  "Go into all the world........."
> No one else ever heard those words of Jesus until Christ made and arranged for His story to be told in Acts 2.  There, in Jerusalem, the Gospel was preached and people responded.  They responded by responding to those very words that Jesus had spoken to the apostles several weeks earlier.
> 
> Now, in Rome, and Corinth, and other places, there were Holy scriptures written to further inform, teach, and educate those very Christians who accepted Christ there in Jerusalem in Acts 2.
> 
> My point, The book of Romans was written to people who had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
> The same for Corinth and Thessolanica.
> 
> Shew, this is very tiring.
> 
> 
> 
> Forgive me for assuming you might not have already considered the above.



I understand all of this and agree with you.

Reread the story of Saul on the road....make a list of what happens first, second, third and so on.
Since that's an example we're looking at, and tell me how I explained it isn't scriptural.

example...I'd like to see your step by step analysis of the story.

The Lord comes to Saul (of course Jesus already knew what 'Paul' would do..would baptism change that?)

and then when you get done, you or somebody, I'd like to see how you parallel the OT and NT blood/salvation


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Exactly, that's my point. I know they believe those things are passed away....so in 3 verses you are to be baptized as evidence of salvation and also speak in tongues/or interpret tongues/ or handle serpents/ or drink poison, yet they choose not to believe any of that is evidence except the baptism part....is that right to dismiss some but not all?



What verse in Mark (or any other NT book) says baptism is "evidence of salvation"?




mtnwoman said:


> it's the blood that saves me,



I agree.  The only question is _when_ did the blood save you.  If you look at all the verses Ronnie listed earlier PLUS 1,500 years of church history on top of that, the answer is clear.


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> What verse in Mark (or any other NT book) says baptism is "evidence of salvation"?*Answering a question with a question doesn't work either...LOL...I believe you know what I'm asking, now go on back and answer the question. If you want to debate words, then just go back to the scripture and reread what it says and tell me, if you can use that verse now, how can you throw the other out by saying such and such churches don't believe that part, yet they believe you have to be baptized to be saved.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.  The only question is _when_ did the blood save you.  If you look at all the verses Ronnie listed earlier PLUS 1,500 years of church history on top of that, the answer is clear.



When did the blood save me? The blood was offered at the cross for salvation, I accepted in 1963 that Jesus died on the cross for my sins and the blood He shed was for me and my sins. When I accepted that gift from God, I was saved. A few months later I was baptized....if I was crusified/buried/resurrected with Christ who was God's blood sacrifice for my sins, just like the lambs in the OT were sacrificed for atonement of sins, I had already been forgiven my sins. I was baptized as a public profession of my faith in Christ.  Did it effect me, of course it did, I felt a phycial washing away of my sins....and yet I knew that a few months earlier when I let Jesus into my heart, I was saved then.

Sheesh if I really thought that the water washed away my sins, I'd have to get baptized every other week


----------



## mtnwoman

Hey what happened with the Noah story? No reply?


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> "saul believed then, later baptized. Not bapitzed first then believed in the lord."
> and notice what Acts 22:16 says.... " And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."
> 
> Where is the washing away of sins of Saul/Paul in this passage: before baptism or a result that follows from baptism?
> 
> Saul had seen Jesus on the road, clearly believed in Him, and was willing to obey Him (22:5-10; 9:3-6). He had even been praying (9:9,11). If anyone could be saved before baptism, it would be Saul. Was he saved?
> 
> Jesus had said Saul should go into the city and would be told what he MUST do (9:6). Ananias came and told him to be baptized and wash away his sins.



So Saul didn't accept the Lord first?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> ...I believe you know what I'm asking,



At this point, I don't think I do. 




mtnwoman said:


> tell me, if you can use that verse now, how can you throw the other out by saying such and such churches don't believe that part, yet they believe you have to be baptized to be saved.



OK, it's official.  I don't understand your question. 

If you can make it a little clearer, I'll do my best to answer -- tomorrow.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Not that I'm aware of.
> 
> Did his disciples ever baptize anyone?



this is why people should not put any faith in men, including the early church heretics, and focus on the Word of God alone...

Jesus baptizes every single person that will enter the gates of Heaven...

Matthew 3:11 
 11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Mark 1:8
 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost

Luke 3:16 
 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost

John 1:33 
 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 1:5 
 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence

now see that there actually 2 baptisms.  thats why Jesus never baptized anyone with water. He didnt need to.  He baptizes with the HS...

1 Corinthians 6:11 
 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

here we see that we are "washed" by Jesus' work on the cross.

so many times when the Bible says they were baptized... many of those times mean they were baptized with the HS by Jesus...  what i mean is, they were not necessarily told to be dunked under water in the river.

ex.

Matthew 20:22-23
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.  

the baptism that Jesus is talking about is the baptism of  the Spirit.

Matthew 28:19
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

what did Jesus command? to go and preach the Gospel. convert people by the hearing of the Word which leads to the baptism of the Spirit.  He did not say go dunk in a river.
how do we know that? the Bible tells us:

Mark 1:4
John did baptize in the wilderness (water), and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (which is the baptism of the HS)

if water baptism had any saving qualities at all... why would JTB preach 2 different baptisms (water and repentance)?  because water baptism has no saving qualities.  the baptism of the HS has the saving qualities.
if getting dunked saved people there would be no need for another baptism (of the Spirit).

thats why getting dunked is an outward expression of something that happened internally (baptism of the Spirit)

Mark 16:15-17 
 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dammed.

this is proof of that getting dunked is not necessary for salvation. i believe we should do it because Christ told us to, but not because it has anything to do with salvation... believing is a requirement for salvation. because He says so. but in this verse there is no proof here that this baptism is getting dunked versus the baptism of the HS.  but my point is there are many verses like this one where we just dont know for sure that they are commanding water baptism or the baptism of the HS.

John 4:1-6 
When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,   2Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,

this verse sounds like a contradiction.  it said Jesus baptized more than John but then it says Jesus did not baptize anyone... how is that possible???

easy, if you understand baptism... Jesus did not give anyone a water baptism like it says here but He baptized "many" because He baptized them with the HS...

Acts 2:37-55
 37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (to be saved)

 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.  

this scenario is about the baptism of repentance. repent and be baptized (baptism of the Spirit).  would it have even been possible to baptize (with water) 3000 people in one day? thats a lot of water baptisms in one day.

even if they did actually water baptize all 3000 folks... there is no proof of it here that it was water baptism.

Acts 8:12-13
 12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

notice that these people believed and then they were baptized... faith in God always comes before the water baptism.  they believed and were saved (baptism of the HS) then baptized with water.

Acts 8:35-40 
35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. (the Word is always preached) 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?” 
37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” 
And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"

 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

more proof that God wants people to believe with all their heart prior to getting Baptized.  the eunich wanted baptism, but Peter said only if you believe with all your heart...

the eunich believed and the baptism of the HS occurred then the water baptism.

Acts 9:17-18
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.

again, Saul (Paul) believed because He heard the Word (Jesus), received the HS and was then baptized...

Paul was already saved when he got water baptized.  Paul received the Word (Jesus), received the baptism of the HS which is the eternal baptism and then got the water baptism.

Acts 10:40-48
 40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

 41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.

 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.  (the preaching of the Word)

 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him (Jesus) shall receive remission of sins. (baptism of the HS after believing the Word)

 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word.  (the Word ((Jesus)) saves people!! not water... when you have the HS, you are saved)

 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (they were saved, they had the HS)

 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (they are already saved)

 47Can any man forbid water (baptism), that these should not be (water)baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (asking if they should be water baptized??? this is the second time that the disciples made double extra sure that a person's heart was right before God and had received the HS before giving the water baptism)

 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.  (they decided to water baptize because they were truly saved)

Acts 18:7-9 
 7And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

 8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

again you have the preaching, hearing and believing of the Word, the HS baptism or remission of sins and then water baptism.

1 Corinthians 1:16-17
 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel

if water baptism has saving qualities... why would Paul not go around water baptizing everyone? because there is no saving qualities in water baptism. there is saving qualities in hearing the Word of God which leads to a baptism of repentance and a filling of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

the baptism of the Spirit is the baptism that saves. not water.  we are baptized by the Spirit (with the hearing of the Word) into Jesus Christ...

Galatians 3:25-30 
 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  (we are saved thru faith in Christ, not water)

 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  (baptized with the HS and into Christ. he did not say "baptized into the river" but baptized into Christ by the HS)

Ephesians 4:4-6 
 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,  (the one baptism of the Holy Spirit, baptism of repentance... a water baptism could not apply here)

1 Peter 3:20-22 
 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us   (which baptism?) (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,  (not water baptism) but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (but the baptism of the Spirit...)

we should receive a proper water baptism after getting our hearts right with God and receiving the Spirit (baptism of the HS) because Jesus told us to... not because there are saving qualities in water but because we love Jesus and want to please Him... He is our Lord and Savior.


----------



## centerpin fan

BH, you say we should focus on he word of God, but that was IMPOSSIBLE for any Christian until the 16th century.

How did the church manage that?


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> So Saul didn't accept the Lord first?



What forgave him of his sins?
Here it is... in Acts 9:6 the Lord says, "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou MUST do." What is ment by the MUST DO part??? Must Do... MUST Do.... does that mean optional? No, it means MUST DO... What did Ananias tell him??? He clearly believed and then was told by Ananias to be baptized to wash away his sins... How much clearer can it be!

Just because one believes doesn't mean one is saved... 

What does baptism do then? What is the purpose of it?

I don't think there is anyway to make you or BH understand the importance of what the NT teaches on baptism... Both of you say it isn't important, take it or leave it is the attitude I get from the two of you.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> this is why people should not put any faith in men, including the early church heretics, and focus on the Word of God alone...
> 
> Jesus baptizes every single person that will enter the gates of Heaven...
> 
> Matthew 3:11
> 11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
> 
> Mark 1:8
> 8I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost
> 
> Luke 3:16
> 16John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost
> 
> John 1:33
> 33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
> 
> Acts 1:5
> 5For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence
> 
> now see that there actually 2 baptisms.  thats why Jesus never baptized anyone with water. He didnt need to.  He baptizes with the HS...
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:11
> 11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
> 
> here we see that we are "washed" by Jesus' work on the cross.
> 
> so many times when the Bible says they were baptized... many of those times mean they were baptized with the HS by Jesus...  what i mean is, they were not necessarily told to be dunked under water in the river.
> 
> ex.
> 
> Matthew 20:22-23
> But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
> 
> the baptism that Jesus is talking about is the baptism of  the Spirit.
> 
> Matthew 28:19
> Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
> 
> what did Jesus command? to go and preach the Gospel. convert people by the hearing of the Word which leads to the baptism of the Spirit.  He did not say go dunk in a river.
> how do we know that? the Bible tells us:
> 
> Mark 1:4
> John did baptize in the wilderness (water), and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. (which is the baptism of the HS)
> 
> if water baptism had any saving qualities at all... why would JTB preach 2 different baptisms (water and repentance)?  because water baptism has no saving qualities.  the baptism of the HS has the saving qualities.
> if getting dunked saved people there would be no need for another baptism (of the Spirit).
> 
> thats why getting dunked is an outward expression of something that happened internally (baptism of the Spirit)
> 
> Mark 16:15-17
> 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
> 
> 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dammed.
> 
> this is proof of that getting dunked is not necessary for salvation. i believe we should do it because Christ told us to, but not because it has anything to do with salvation... believing is a requirement for salvation. because He says so. but in this verse there is no proof here that this baptism is getting dunked versus the baptism of the HS.  but my point is there are many verses like this one where we just dont know for sure that they are commanding water baptism or the baptism of the HS.
> 
> John 4:1-6
> When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,   2Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,
> 
> this verse sounds like a contradiction.  it said Jesus baptized more than John but then it says Jesus did not baptize anyone... how is that possible???
> 
> easy, if you understand baptism... Jesus did not give anyone a water baptism like it says here but He baptized "many" because He baptized them with the HS...
> 
> Acts 2:37-55
> 37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (to be saved)
> 
> 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.
> 
> 40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
> 
> 41Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
> 
> this scenario is about the baptism of repentance. repent and be baptized (baptism of the Spirit).  would it have even been possible to baptize (with water) 3000 people in one day? thats a lot of water baptisms in one day.
> 
> even if they did actually water baptize all 3000 folks... there is no proof of it here that it was water baptism.
> 
> Acts 8:12-13
> 12But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
> 
> 13Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
> 
> notice that these people believed and then they were baptized... faith in God always comes before the water baptism.  they believed and were saved (baptism of the HS) then baptized with water.
> 
> Acts 8:35-40
> 35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning at this Scripture, preached Jesus to him. (the Word is always preached) 36 Now as they went down the road, they came to some water. And the eunuch said, “See, here is water. What hinders me from being baptized?”
> 37 Then Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.”
> And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"
> 
> 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
> 
> more proof that God wants people to believe with all their heart prior to getting Baptized.  the eunich wanted baptism, but Peter said only if you believe with all your heart...
> 
> the eunich believed and the baptism of the HS occurred then the water baptism.
> 
> Acts 9:17-18
> 17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized.
> 
> again, Saul (Paul) believed because He heard the Word (Jesus), received the HS and was then baptized...
> 
> Paul was already saved when he got water baptized.  Paul received the Word (Jesus), received the baptism of the HS which is the eternal baptism and then got the water baptism.
> 
> Acts 10:40-48
> 40Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
> 
> 41Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
> 
> 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.  (the preaching of the Word)
> 
> 43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him (Jesus) shall receive remission of sins. (baptism of the HS after believing the Word)
> 
> 44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the Word.  (the Word ((Jesus)) saves people!! not water... when you have the HS, you are saved)
> 
> 45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (they were saved, they had the HS)
> 
> 46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (they are already saved)
> 
> 47Can any man forbid water (baptism), that these should not be (water)baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (asking if they should be water baptized??? this is the second time that the disciples made double extra sure that a person's heart was right before God and had received the HS before giving the water baptism)
> 
> 48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.  (they decided to water baptize because they were truly saved)
> 
> Acts 18:7-9
> 7And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.
> 
> 8And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.
> 
> again you have the preaching, hearing and believing of the Word, the HS baptism or remission of sins and then water baptism.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1:16-17
> 16And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
> 
> 17For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel
> 
> if water baptism has saving qualities... why would Paul not go around water baptizing everyone? because there is no saving qualities in water baptism. there is saving qualities in hearing the Word of God which leads to a baptism of repentance and a filling of the Spirit.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 12:13
> For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
> 
> the baptism of the Spirit is the baptism that saves. not water.  we are baptized by the Spirit (with the hearing of the Word) into Jesus Christ...
> 
> Galatians 3:25-30
> 25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
> 
> 26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  (we are saved thru faith in Christ, not water)
> 
> 27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  (baptized with the HS and into Christ. he did not say "baptized into the river" but baptized into Christ by the HS)
> 
> Ephesians 4:4-6
> 4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
> 
> 5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,  (the one baptism of the Holy Spirit, baptism of repentance... a water baptism could not apply here)
> 
> 1 Peter 3:20-22
> 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
> 
> 21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us   (which baptism?) (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,  (not water baptism) but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (but the baptism of the Spirit...)
> 
> we should receive a proper water baptism after getting our hearts right with God and receiving the Spirit (baptism of the HS) because Jesus told us to... not because there are saving qualities in water but because we love Jesus and want to please Him... He is our Lord and Savior.



Wow... you've really switch gears, and decided to take a new approach on why baptism isn't necessary, so now its baptism of the holy spirt...eh

My favorite....
"this scenario is about the baptism of repentance. repent and be baptized (baptism of the Spirit).  would it have even been possible to baptize (with water) 3000 people in one day? thats a lot of water baptisms in one day.
even if they did actually water baptize all 3000 folks... there is no proof of it here that it was water baptism"
HAHAHA....serious?...Brilliant
Do you think it would have been possible for Jesus to feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.... what are your thougths on that???


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Wow... you've really switch gears, and decided to take a new approach on why baptism isn't necessary, so now its baptism of the holy spirt...eh
> 
> My favorite....
> "this scenario is about the baptism of repentance. repent and be baptized (baptism of the Spirit).  would it have even been possible to baptize (with water) 3000 people in one day? thats a lot of water baptisms in one day.
> even if they did actually water baptize all 3000 folks... there is no proof of it here that it was water baptism"
> HAHAHA....serious?...Brilliant
> Do you think it would have been possible for Jesus to feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.... what are your thougths on that???




didnt switch gears. still debating baptism...  i just wanted to point that the Bible teaches that there are 2 baptisms and they each have their roles....

yall were saying that baptism was necessary for salvation and you were correct... but you were only partially correct. you had the wrong baptism....  it is impossible to go to heaven without the baptism of the HS...  the other is just a symbolic command by Jesus once hearing the Word, believing and repenting.  we still  need to get water baptized....  but Biblically.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> BH, you say we should focus on he word of God, but that was IMPOSSIBLE for any Christian until the 16th century.
> 
> How did the church manage that?



there was some Scripture available to them.  in Acts the Bereans were called "nobel" because they searched the Scriptures daily....


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> What forgave him of his sins?
> Here it is... in Acts 9:6 the Lord says, "Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou MUST do." What is ment by the MUST DO part??? Must Do... MUST Do.... does that mean optional? No, it means MUST DO... What did Ananias tell him??? He clearly believed and then was told by Ananias to be baptized to wash away his sins... How much clearer can it be!
> 
> Just because one believes doesn't mean one is saved...*Just because one is baptized doesn't mean they are saved either....that's not what saves you. What about John 3:16?  16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
> 
> *
> 
> What does baptism do then? What is the purpose of it?*Blood baptism in the spirit, receives the Holy Spirit, baptism in the flesh with water is symbolic of washing away sins, which is really washed away with the blood in the spirit.*
> 
> I don't think there is anyway to make you or BH understand the importance of what the NT teaches on baptism... Both of you say it isn't important, take it or leave it is the attitude I get from the two of you.



There is no where that I've said it isn't important. Please refer to the post that I said that. 

If and only if you are reading my post you will see the attitude or spirit, I write what I write and nothing I've said has belittled baptism. 

If anything you all who think baptism in water is what saves you is belittling the crusifiction of Christ and the shedding of His blood that is needed for the remission of sins, just like in the OT where an innocent lamb was sacrificed for the remission of sins....what part of that parallel don't you get?.Jesus says it is finished, the OT fulfilled by the death on the cross....the final lamb, the final bloodshed for atonement.

Are you gonna throw John 3:16 out?
 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 

That's where it says if we believe we will not perish, we will be saved....what part of that don't you get? 

Nothing we do will save us, nothing will save our flesh, water, holy water, laying on of hands, not wearing makeup, wearing a head covering, speaking in tongues....NONE of that will save us. Jesus saved us when He died on the cross and we accepted Him as our saviour.

Make a list of all the things that every religion requires you have to do to be saved and being baptized in water will be on that list.

God says to believe that Jesus is who He said He is, the innocent Lamb of God, that was sacrificed for our sins....how does baptism in water compare to that?

Why didn't God spare Jesus and say, well just go get baptized in water and you're good to go? No He said we must be baptized in the blood, water being the symbol of blood.


----------



## mtnwoman

BeenHuntn said:


> didnt switch gears. still debating baptism...  i just wanted to point that the Bible teaches that there are 2 baptisms and they each have their roles....
> 
> yall were saying that baptism was necessary for salvation and you were correct... but you were only partially correct. you had the wrong baptism....  it is impossible to go to heaven without the baptism of the HS...  the other is just a symbolic command by Jesus once hearing the Word, believing and repenting.  we still  need to get water baptized....  but Biblically.



Switching gears? From reverse to forward I'd say....very little mention of the the baptism in the HS in this pro baptism for salvation debate.

John the baptist and all the disciples used water baptism, Jesus baptizes in the HS, of course that comes after the work on the cross. It appears that some do not believe that anything changed after the cross.

We need two baptisms? No just one, like Saul, we are baptized in the HS, today. 
Is water baptism worth anything? Of course it is, it's our flesh being washed in semblence of our spirit being washed in the blood for the remission of sins.
Only the blood of Christ can really wash away our sins. Water is worthless unless we believe, it doesn't make us believe, it doesn't redeem us...it's something we do in the flesh only to show others we believe....Christ already knows that we believe, He knows our heart...well if you believe He knows your heart. He knows mine, and lives there.


----------



## thedeacon

How funny is it that people can find every place in the bible that baptism is not mentioned but fail to be smart enough to find the places that it is mentioned.  WOW


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Wow... you've really switch gears, and decided to take a new approach on why baptism isn't necessary, so now its baptism of the holy spirt...eh
> 
> My favorite....
> "this scenario is about the baptism of repentance. repent and be baptized (baptism of the Spirit).  would it have even been possible to baptize (with water) 3000 people in one day? thats a lot of water baptisms in one day.
> even if they did actually water baptize all 3000 folks... there is no proof of it here that it was water baptism"
> HAHAHA....serious?...Brilliant
> Do you think it would have been possible for Jesus to feed 5000 with 5 loaves of bread and 2 fish.... what are your thougths on that???



haha! brilliant!  Jesus wasn't there wise guy...  this scenario was in the book of Acts...   He was seated at the right hand of the Father by this time.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> haha! brilliant!  Jesus wasn't there wise guy...  this scenario was in the book of Acts...   He was seated at the right hand of the Father by this time.



Who said he was??


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Who said he was??



its what you were implying... you can try to change the subject here if you want... but you cannot change the teaching of the water baptism and Spirit baptism that is taught in the Bible...  water is just that water. without the baptism of the Spirit, nobody will see heaven.


----------



## WTM45

BeenHuntn said:


> its what you were implying... you can try to change the subject here if you want... but you cannot change the teaching of the water baptism and Spirit baptism that is taught in the Bible...  water is just that water. without the baptism of the Spirit, nobody will see heaven.



That's not Acts 2:38.
It clearly establishes a procedural order.  It does not refer to any step in that order as being more important than another.
The HS is a "gift."


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> its what you were implying... you can try to change the subject here if you want... but you cannot change the teaching of the water baptism and Spirit baptism that is taught in the Bible...  water is just that water. without the baptism of the Spirit, nobody will see heaven.



My point was you questioning the possibility of baptizing3000 people in one day... then saying that's a lot of baptisms.


----------



## whome

Good old believism...


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Good old believism...



can a person go to heaven without believing?


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> can a person go to heaven without believing?



No a person can't.

Mark 16:16
" He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; 
but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Good old believism...



can a person go to heaven without believing?


----------



## Israel

eat all of the lamb.
including his obedience.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> can a person go to heaven without believing?



No...


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> No...



thank you.


----------



## Big7

BeenHuntn said:


> Scripture please...



"Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12). 

There you go...


----------



## centerpin fan

Big7 said:


> "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).



That's about as plain as it gets.


----------



## BeenHuntn

au contraire...  you can keep your water. i'll keep my baptism in the Spirit.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> au contraire...  you can keep your water. i'll keep my baptism in the Spirit.



The only way to receive, and contact the blood of Jesus is through baptism into his death. And a burial water baptism is the only way to do that.

Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
When you read that verse, what is it that takes you from being without Christ to being within Christ? Baptism..Pretty simple stuff


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> The only way to receive, and contact the blood of Jesus is through baptism into his death. And a burial water baptism is the only way to do that.
> 
> Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ
> When you read that verse, what is it that takes you from being without Christ to being within Christ? Baptism..Pretty simple stuff



meaning:  "for as many of you as have been baptized (in the Holy Spirit not water) into Christ have put on Christ (saved!).  you are correct that baptism is needed to be saved... but its the baptism of the Spirit, not the water.  water is an outward sign.. and comes AFTER salvation...

need proof?

Acts 8:30-4
 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

 31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

 32The place of the scripture which he read was this (the Gospel), He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened He not his mouth:

 33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

 34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. (so the eunuch heard the Gospel and believed and he is saved!!)

 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (why cant i get water baptized??)

 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. _*And he (Eunuch) answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*_   NOW the eunuch is saved.

 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. 

now they are baptized in the water.  100% proof that water baptism should not occur unless the person has been filled with the Spirit thru the baptism of the spirit which comes from the Word and the believing in the Word..


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> The only way to receive, and contact the blood of Jesus is through baptism into his death. And a burial water baptism is the only way to do that.
> 
> Galatians 3:27 - For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
> When you read that verse, what is it that takes you from being without Christ to being within Christ? Baptism..Pretty simple stuff



You might think the water saved you but the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins.
If we could be washed in water and be saved, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross.

Sins were atoned in the OT by the shed blood of a lamb, they didn't use water on the Day of Atonement, they used blood. God said He'd provide Himself a lamb and sacrifice that lamb to take away the sins of the world once and for all....it's about the blood, all about the blood.

And I think that is simple.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> You might think the water saved you but the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins.
> If we could be washed in water and be saved, then Jesus wouldn't have had to die on the cross.
> 
> Sins were atoned in the OT by the shed blood of a lamb, they didn't use water on the Day of Atonement, they used blood. God said He'd provide Himself a lamb and sacrifice that lamb to take away the sins of the world once and for all....it's about the blood, all about the blood.
> 
> And I think that is simple.




So true, it IS the blood that was shed on the cross. That's what saves you... How do you get into Christ's death and his blood that was shed on the cross? 
What was his blood shed for???
Let see what God's word says about it..
Romans 6:3-5
Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 
Baptism is what takes us into Jesus and his death.
So, to make this simple... 
Baptism= into Christ
Baptism= into Christ's death
Christ's death=blood
I highlighted BURIED because if you all want to talk about symbolism, it's a good one to look at here and actually throughout the NT... What do you the symbolism between buried and baptism is???

So, you say... "the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins"
Can you see it yet???


Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Now, take a look at Act 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Again, let make this simple...
Christ's blood shed=Remission of sins
Baptism=Remission of sins

So, you say... "the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins"
Can you see it yet???

Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? No, He did it so people who did not have remission could receive it and likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it.

It IS simple....


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> meaning:  "for as many of you as have been baptized (in the Holy Spirit not water) into Christ have put on Christ (saved!).  you are correct that baptism is needed to be saved... but its the baptism of the Spirit, not the water.  water is an outward sign.. and comes AFTER salvation...
> First... Who is the outward sign for?
> So, let me get this right...salvation come when you believe at your "Holy Spirit Baptism" followed by your "Water Baptism"
> Sort of like an "outward sign of your inner faith"
> 
> need proof?
> 
> 
> Acts 8:30-4
> 30And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
> 
> 31And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
> 
> 32The place of the scripture which he read was this (the Gospel), He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened He not his mouth:
> 
> 33In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
> 
> 34And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
> 
> 35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. (so the eunuch heard the Gospel and believed and he is saved!!)
> So, he's save here according to YOU because he heard the word...?
> 
> 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (why cant i get water baptized??)"Why can't I get water baptized." You can't be serious
> 
> 37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. _*And he (Eunuch) answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.*_   NOW the eunuch is saved.
> So, he's saved here again according to YOU cause he believes...?
> 
> 38And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
> Now, here is where he is saved according to what the bible teaches... for the remission of sins, to put on christ, baptized into his death
> now they are baptized in the water.  100% proof that water baptism should not occur unless the person has been filled with the Spirit thru the baptism of the spirit which comes from the Word and the believing in the Word..



Seems pretty confusing to me...


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> Seems pretty confusing to me...




that doesnt confuse me...


----------



## Ronnie T

whome said:


> So true, it IS the blood that was shed on the cross. That's what saves you... How do you get into Christ's death and his blood that was shed on the cross?
> What was his blood shed for???
> Let see what God's word says about it..
> Romans 6:3-5
> Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
> Baptism is what takes us into Jesus and his death.
> So, to make this simple...
> Baptism= into Christ
> Baptism= into Christ's death
> Christ's death=blood
> I highlighted BURIED because if you all want to talk about symbolism, it's a good one to look at here and actually throughout the NT... What do you the symbolism between buried and baptism is???
> 
> So, you say... "the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins"
> Can you see it yet???
> 
> 
> Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
> Now, take a look at Act 2:38
> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> Again, let make this simple...
> Christ's blood shed=Remission of sins
> Baptism=Remission of sins
> 
> So, you say... "the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins"
> Can you see it yet???
> 
> Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? No, He did it so people who did not have remission could receive it and likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it.
> 
> It IS simple....




Your reasoning here makes it about as clear as can be.
But they are not going to change what they've already decided is the truth.
They believe a person is saved prior to baptism, so a person doesn't need to be baptized.
They simply don't see baptism as the point where Jesus' blood washes away the sins of the new believer.  The Bible cleary teaches that, they for reasons unknown, they refuse to consider it.
They know the scriptures NEVER say that baptism is an afterthought to salvation, but that's not what they've been taught so they are not willing to look with an open mind.

The argument has been presented from both side.
Hopefully, people will read this thread in the future and learn from the scriptures that have been quoted.
Growing in the word is one of the great things about having God's Holy, Inspired Scriptures to meditate upon.


----------



## whome

Ronnie T said:


> Your reasoning here makes it about as clear as can be.
> But they are not going to change what they've already decided is the truth.
> They believe a person is saved prior to baptism, so a person doesn't need to be baptized.
> They simply don't see baptism as the point where Jesus' blood washes away the sins of the new believer.  The Bible cleary teaches that, they for reasons unknown, they refuse to consider it.
> They know the scriptures NEVER say that baptism is an afterthought to salvation, but that's not what they've been taught so they are not willing to look with an open mind.
> 
> The argument has been presented from both side.
> Hopefully, people will read this thread in the future and learn from the scriptures that have been quoted.
> Growing in the word is one of the great things about having God's Holy, Inspired Scriptures to meditate upon.



That is what I would hope... that people will dive into the scripture to see what the words says. Why? Cause that's what ultimately matters... 

Here is what they say... He who believes is saved and may then be baptized. 
But here is what the word of God says... He who believes and is baptized will be saved.

Both faith and baptism are essential in order to receive salvation.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. *How many times have I posted that in this thread?? that the blood of the lambs in the OT were for the remission of sins, now the blood of the Lamb of God in the NT is the blood for the remission of sins...not water, the blood of Christ.*
> Now, take a look at Act 2:38
> Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.*Yeah in the blood of the NT, that's WHY we receive the HS is because we believe in the blood, not because we get baptized in water.*
> Again, let make this simple...
> Christ's blood shed=Remission of sins
> Baptism=Remission of sins*Water baptism is a symbol that you've been washed in the blood...water alone means nothing, it represents the blood of Christ. That's all they had before the blood was shed, was water as a symbol of what the blood will do for them in the spirit...wash away their sins*
> 
> So, you say... "the blood saved me, the work on the cross saved me, Jesus died on the cross for my sins"
> Can you see it yet???*Do I see what?*
> 
> Did Jesus shed His blood because people already had remission of sins? No,*Where has anyone said that but you? According to you if they were baptized in water before the cross, they had remission of sins...and if they believed they did, but it was still because of the death to come. The jews always used blood for the remission of sins, now they switched over to water?* He did it*Did what?* so people who did not have remission could receive it and likewise, baptism is not administered because people already have remission but so people who do not have it can receive it.*Everyone already has the blood, that happened 2000 yrs ago, you now have to believe it. Before the blood there was only water,(John the Baptist) implying what the blood to come would do...wash away our sins.*
> 
> It IS simple....



Yes it is simple.

Nothing but the blood of Jesus.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> That is what I would hope... that people will dive into the scripture to see what the words says. Why? Cause that's what ultimately matters...
> 
> Here is what they say... He who believes is saved and may then be baptized.
> But here is what the word of God says... He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
> 
> Both faith and baptism are essential in order to receive salvation.



You're still leaving out part of that scripture, why do you do you that? 
The scripture says that you will be saved if you believe and are baptized but if you DO NOT BELIEVE you will be condemned...doesn't say a thing if you're not baptized that you'll be condemned.

When you believe you are now baptized in the HS, which means that you believe that the spirt of Jesus which IS the Holy Spirit is in you....you have become part of Him because you accept the blood and it's cleansing power you are united with the HS the moment you believe, being baptized in the Holy Spirit, you're sins were already forgiven 2000 yrs ago on the cross the ONLY thing you have to do is believe it.

Baptism in water is symbolic of accepting that, accepting the fact that you've received the HS when you first believed not after you were baptized in water....water baptism is just like communion...we have already taken on Christ when we believed.


----------



## mtnwoman

Let me ask y'all a question.

If today I accept Jesus Christ as my saviour and I believe that the blood of the lamb was for the remission of sins, and that Jesus is the Son of God and was crusified for my atonement, as lambs were in the OT....that if I die before I get bapized next month that I won't be saved?

All I want is a yes of no answer....I either am saved or I'm not.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> You're still leaving out part of that scripture, why do you do you that?
> The scripture says that you will be saved if you believe and are baptized but if you DO NOT BELIEVE you will be condemned...doesn't say a thing if you're not baptized that you'll be condemned.



It doesn't have to.  If you don't believe, you won't get baptized.  Belief is the first step, but it's not the only step.  If it were, Jesus would not have mentioned baptism here at all.  If baptism is not crucial for salvation, there's no point in constantly bringing it up.




mtnwoman said:


> When you believe you are now baptized in the HS,



Satan and his demons believe Jesus is the Son of God.  Have they been baptized in the Holy Spirit?


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> All I want is a yes of no answer....I either am saved or I'm not.



No.

On the other hand, why wait a month to get baptized?  Nobody in the NT did.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> You're still leaving out part of that scripture, why do you do you that?
> The scripture says that you will be saved if you believe and are baptized but if you DO NOT BELIEVE you will be condemned...doesn't say a thing if you're not baptized that you'll be condemned.
> 
> 
> I think you are trying to walk a fine line with...It should be obvious, if you do not believe you will probably not be baptized... Let make this simple again...1+1=2 take either of the 1's out of the equation and you don't have 2. In a similar fashion Faith+Baptism= Salvation... You can no more be saved before baptism than you can before believing.
> 
> When you believe you are now baptized in the HS, which means that you believe that the spirt of Jesus which IS the Holy Spirit is in you....you have become part of Him because you accept the blood and it's cleansing power you are united with the HS the moment you believe, being baptized in the Holy Spirit, you're sins were already forgiven 2000 yrs ago on the cross(so, a persons sins are forgiven prior to baptism according to you) the ONLY thing you have to do is believe it.  Maybe that sounds good in your mind, but that's not what the word of God says....
> 
> Baptism in water is symbolic of accepting that, accepting the fact that you've received the HS when you first believed not after you were baptized in water....water baptism is just like communion...we have already taken on Christ when we believed.



Who is it a symbol for??? Is this where "an outward sign of inner faith" comes into play?


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


> Let me ask y'all a question.
> 
> If today I accept Jesus Christ as my saviour and I believe that the blood of the lamb was for the remission of sins, and that Jesus is the Son of God and was crusified for my atonement, as lambs were in the OT....that if I die before I get bapized next month that I won't be saved?
> 
> All I want is a yes of no answer....I either am saved or I'm not.



Why must you come up with all of the hypothetical situations where you want us to pass judgement on whether or not someone is saved. Look at Paul... do you think he didn't believe on the road? Yet, he was told that Ananias would come tell him what he MUST do... What is the MUST referring to?  Better yet what DID Ananias tell him? So, what Ananias TOLD him was the MUST the Lord was referencing... Again, 1+1

I'll second the motion on "why would you wait a month?"  Notice in the NT the timeframe of baptism...


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Your reasoning here makes it about as clear as can be.
> But they are not going to change what they've already decided is the truth.
> They believe a person is saved prior to baptism, so a person doesn't need to be baptized.
> They simply don't see baptism as the point where Jesus' blood washes away the sins of the new believer.  The Bible cleary teaches that, they for reasons unknown, they refuse to consider it.
> They know the scriptures NEVER say that baptism is an afterthought to salvation, but that's not what they've been taught so they are not willing to look with an open mind.
> 
> The argument has been presented from both side.
> Hopefully, people will read this thread in the future and learn from the scriptures that have been quoted.
> Growing in the word is one of the great things about having God's Holy, Inspired Scriptures to meditate upon.



there are 2 different baptisms taught in the Bible. 

the baptism of the Spirit, where one repents, believes on Christ and puts all faith in Christ. this is the baptism where salvation takes place. it is when the blood of Christ and His blood washes away the sins of the believer.  so yes, baptism does save, but its the baptism of the Spirit that saves.

the second baptism, is once the person has been baptized in the Spirit, repented, accepted Christ... THEN they go down to the water and make a public profession and are washed in the water to symbolize that they have been washed by the blood already.  this baptism is commanded by the Word so yes we need to do it.  no reason not to. its being obedient to Christ.  and i never said it wasnt necessary. it is necessary but not necessary for salvation because the salvation has already taken place at the baptism of the Spirit.

this so clearly taught in the Bible i dont know how anyone can miss it.

we are saved (100%) by the blood of Christ and faith in Him thru His grace ALONE......  and to add anything to His grace endangers the believer of nullifying His work on the cross.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> No.
> 
> On the other hand, why wait a month to get baptized?  Nobody in the NT did.



why do you read the writings of the early church heretics and believe their doctrines??? nobody in the NT did...


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> there are 2 different baptisms taught in the Bible.
> 
> the baptism of the Spirit, where one repents, believes on Christ and puts all faith in Christ. this is the baptism where salvation takes place. it is when the blood of Christ and His blood washes away the sins of the believer.  so yes, baptism does save, but its the baptism of the Spirit that saves.
> 
> the second baptism, is once the person has been baptized in the Spirit, repented, accepted Christ... THEN they go down to the water and make a public profession and are washed in the water to symbolize that they have been washed by the blood already.  this baptism is commanded by the Word so yes we need to do it.  no reason not to. its being obedient to Christ.  and i never said it wasnt necessary. it is necessary but not necessary for salvation because the salvation has already taken place at the baptism of the Spirit.Which is it??? Necessary or not necessary... it's either one or the other? What is it necessary for then? You can't have it both ways.
> 
> this so clearly taught in the Bible i dont know how anyone can miss it.
> 
> we are saved (100%) by the blood of Christ and faith in Him thru His grace ALONE......  and to add anything to His grace endangers the believer of nullifying His work on the cross.



What then shall we do with Ephesians 4:4-5???
4. There is on body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in on hope of your calling; 
5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism...

I'll ask this again.....Who is the outward sign for?
So, let me get this right according to you ...salvation come when you believe at your "Holy Spirit Baptism" followed by your "Water Baptism" sort of like an "outward sign of your inner faith."


----------



## Lowjack

mtnwoman said:


> You're still leaving out part of that scripture, why do you do you that?
> The scripture says that you will be saved if you believe and are baptized but if you DO NOT BELIEVE you will be condemned...doesn't say a thing if you're not baptized that you'll be condemned.
> 
> When you believe you are now baptized in the HS, which means that you believe that the spirt of Jesus which IS the Holy Spirit is in you....you have become part of Him because you accept the blood and it's cleansing power you are united with the HS the moment you believe, being baptized in the Holy Spirit, you're sins were already forgiven 2000 yrs ago on the cross the ONLY thing you have to do is believe it.
> 
> Baptism in water is symbolic of accepting that, accepting the fact that you've received the HS when you first believed not after you were baptized in water....water baptism is just like communion...we have already taken on Christ when we believed.



Very God point and it also doesn't say baptized in Water, what about the baptism of The Holy Spirit ??


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> this so clearly taught in the Bible i dont know how anyone can miss it.



It was missed by the entire church for 15 centuries.


----------



## Ronnie T

This all absolutely amazes me.

Let me ask two questions about acts 2:38.

38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1.  Why is baptism included in the above verse??

2.  When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

Note:  If you need to, go to original greek to verify this speaks of water baptism.


Now, the way you answer these 2 questions will tell you and everyone else how you're able to read a sentence and intellectualize it.

Please answer.


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> What then shall we do with Ephesians 4:4-5???
> 4. There is on body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in on hope of your calling;
> 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism...
> 
> I'll ask this again.....Who is the outward sign for?
> So, let me get this right according to you ...salvation come when you believe at your "Holy Spirit Baptism" followed by your "Water Baptism" sort of like an "outward sign of your inner faith."



this means the baptism of the Spirit not water baptism.

if you could just understand that there are 2 different baptisms taught in the Bible you could possibly see what these verses are speaking of.

this verse cannot possibly be talking about getting dunked or sprinkled by water.  the thief on the cross went to heaven and did not get "water" baptized as did joseph, mary, moses, everybody from the OT and most from the NT, we have NO proof they were ever water baptized...

BUT

everyone who enters heaven will be baptized in the Spirit (not water).

Matt. 3:11,  "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."�

Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."

John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."

Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> It was missed by the entire church for 15 centuries.



you said that just to make me   ,  didnt you?


----------



## WTM45

BeenHuntn said:


> we have NO proof...



Hmmmmmmm........

Have we heard that here before?


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> you said that just to make me   ,  didnt you?



Just stating a fact -- no ulterior motives.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> This all absolutely amazes me.
> 
> Let me ask two questions about acts 2:38.
> 
> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1.  Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> 
> 2.  When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Note:  If you need to, go to original greek to verify this speaks of water baptism.
> 
> 
> Now, the way you answer these 2 questions will tell you and everyone else how you're able to read a sentence and intellectualize it.
> 
> Please answer.



even if this is speaking of "baptism by water" (in the greek), this does not prove that water baptism is necessary for salvation.

how do you know that 100% of salvation did not occur at repentance?

you cant prove, nor does the Bible teach water has any saving qualities. salvation is 100% thru grace, from the blood.

if water baptism is necessary... why is repentance mentioned 10 times in Revelation and baptism is not mentioned once????

here is just 1 of those 10 verses..

Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, (they heard the Word) and hold fast, (to your faith in Me) and REPENT. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

if water baptism is necessary, why doesnt Jesus mention it at least once in Rev?  because water is not necessary.  the baptism of the HS is necessary.

why did Paul say that he was commanded by Jesus to preach the Gospel and to not baptize...?  water is not needed.  

if it was, Jesus would have told the thief... "sorry bud, i know you repented and believed on Me, but there is no way that I can let you into heaven because we wont be able to get you down off this cross to get you into some water for a dunking before you die..."


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> why do you read the writings of the early church heretics and believe their doctrines??? nobody in the NT did...



1) I don't.  Their writings are not scripture.  They are just good commentaries on scripture.  Besides, just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them heretics.   It might mean you are the heretic.

2) You didn't answer my question.  Why didn't anyone in the NT postpone their baptism?


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Let me ask y'all a question.
> 
> If today I accept Jesus Christ as my saviour and I believe that the blood of the lamb was for the remission of sins, and that Jesus is the Son of God and was crusified for my atonement, as lambs were in the OT....that if I die before I get bapized next month that I won't be saved?
> 
> All I want is a yes of no answer....I either am saved or I'm not.



Sorry, but I can't give you a yes or no answer.
God makes those choices, not you and I.
I can tell you what the Bible says.
I already have.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> this means the baptism of the Spirit not water baptism.
> 
> if you could just understand that there are 2 different baptisms taught in the Bible you could possibly see what these verses are speaking of.
> 
> this verse cannot possibly be talking about getting dunked or sprinkled by water.  the thief on the cross went to heaven and did not get "water" baptized as did joseph, mary, moses, everybody from the OT and most from the NT, we have NO proof they were ever water baptized...
> How do you know the thief wasn't baptized???
> Seriously??? NO proof?
> BUT
> 
> everyone who enters heaven will be baptized in the Spirit (not water).
> 
> Matt. 3:11,  "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
> 
> Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."�
> 
> Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
> 
> John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."
> 
> Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
> 
> Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."




I hope you realize that these are the only six times in the NT that we read that Jesus was to baptize in the Holy Spirit and nowhere else... and further more, they are all off the same account... the day of Pentecost.


----------



## centerpin fan

BH, you're pulling verses out of context again.  Jesus is not speaking to the unconverted in Revelation.  He's speaking to churches.


----------



## Ronnie T

Beenhuntn,

Do you believe every child of God is baptized with the Holy Spirit today?


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> This all absolutely amazes me.
> 
> Let me ask two questions about acts 2:38.
> 
> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1.  Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> 
> 2.  When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Note:  If you need to, go to original greek to verify this speaks of water baptism.
> 
> 
> Now, the way you answer these 2 questions will tell you and everyone else how you're able to read a sentence and intellectualize it.
> 
> Please answer.



No one wants to answer these two questions in your own words?


----------



## whome

Ronnie T said:


> This all absolutely amazes me.
> 
> Let me ask two questions about acts 2:38.
> 
> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1.  Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> Baptized in the name of Jesus for the forgiveness of sins
> 2.  When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> After baptism
> Note:  If you need to, go to original greek to verify this speaks of water baptism.
> 
> 
> Now, the way you answer these 2 questions will tell you and everyone else how you're able to read a sentence and intellectualize it.
> 
> Please answer.


It also amazes me...
I like my little equations so I'll post them again... These are scriptural... not just because I feel or I think  
Baptism= into Christ
Baptism= into Christ's death
Christ's death=blood
Christ's blood shed=Remission of sins
Baptism=Remission of sins


----------



## whome

I'll ask this again... BH, If your "water baptism" as you call it is only an outward sign; who is it for? and of what benefit?
And your "spirit baptism" comes after one believes...


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> 1) I don't.  Their writings are not scripture.  They are just good commentaries on scripture.  Besides, just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them heretics.   It might mean you are the heretic.
> 
> 2) You didn't answer my question.  Why didn't anyone in the NT postpone their baptism?



no they are not good commentaries. what makes a commentary a "good" commentary? one that is in agreement with the Word.  their teachings sometimes did line up with the Word but in many cases did not. the only commentary that we need of the Bible is the Bible itself.

how do you know that nobody waited to get baptized in the NT? are you 100% sure that nobody ever waited in the NT?  and what is "waiting"?  is it an hour? a day? a year?  you have to define waiting?  their church then was different than ours today.  today you have to make an appt with a pastor to get baptized. most pastors arent willing to drop what they are doing right that second to go and baptize anyone... why should they be? water baptism is not necessary to go to heaven...


----------



## BeenHuntn

whome said:


> I hope you realize that these are the only six times in the NT that we read that Jesus was to baptize in the Holy Spirit and nowhere else... and further more, they are all off the same account... the day of Pentecost.



so what?  creation is only mentioned "x" number of times in the Bible... does that mean we shouldnt believe in it?  

there are thousands of things only mentioned a few times... that doesnt mean we dont believe in them.  your reasoning makes no sense.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> BH, you're pulling verses out of context again.  Jesus is not speaking to the unconverted in Revelation.  He's speaking to churches.



??? if they are already saved, why was He telling them to repent?  was all of them saved?  were all of them converted? you dont know... but we do know water baptism is not mentioned as part of the command to repent...


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Beenhuntn,
> 
> Do you believe every child of God is baptized with the Holy Spirit today?



if they are a saved child of God, yes, they have been baptized in the HS...  if they are in a cult and call themselves a child of God, i would say probably not.

Jesus said that after He left, that He would send the Comforter.  the Comforter will dwell in every true child of God that has been saved.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> no they are not good commentaries.



How do you know?  Which ones have you read?


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> ??? if they are already saved, why was He telling them to repent?



Because Christians sin and need to repent, too.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> how do you know that nobody waited to get baptized in the NT? are you 100% sure that nobody ever waited in the NT?



Well, there's no record of it in the NT, and you said yourself all we need is the Bible.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> no they are not good commentaries. what makes a commentary a "good" commentary? one that is in agreement with the Word.  their teachings sometimes did line up with the Word but in many cases did not. the only commentary that we need of the Bible is the Bible itself.
> 
> how do you know that nobody waited to get baptized in the NT? are you 100% sure that nobody ever waited in the NT?  and what is "waiting"?  is it an hour? a day? a year?  you have to define waiting?  their church then was different than ours today.  today you have to make an appt with a pastor to get baptized. most pastors arent willing to drop what they are doing right that second to go and baptize anyone... why should they be? water baptism is not necessary to go to heaven...




Did the ethiopian eunuch wait??? We do know that was a "water baptism" as you would call it.
Yeah, I don't know what would be anymore important that someone who wants to put on Christ...
John 14:15
John 14:21


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> No one wants to answer these two questions in your own words?



38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

1. Why is baptism included in the above verse??

2. When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?

1) He said repent. when (if) they did repent, they were then saved, at that very moment. and be baptized. salvation occured at repentance. so now whatever baptism they are talking about (water or HS) is after or second. both baptisms will fit in this verse perfectly. because salvation has already occured. since salvation has occured they are now free to go get dunked (if that is what this means) or they are now free to recieve the HS, BECAUSE, they called on the name of JC for forgiveness.  guys, only Jesus saves.  to include anything with the blood of Christ is just wrong.

2) it says he would receive the HS after repentance, which totally agrees with the rest of the Bible...


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> if they are a saved child of God, yes, they have been baptized in the HS...  if they are in a cult and call themselves a child of God, i would say probably not.
> 
> Jesus said that after He left, that He would send the Comforter.  the Comforter will dwell in every true child of God that has been saved.No He did not.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> it says he would receive the HS after repentance, which totally agrees with the rest of the Bible...



Incredible.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1. Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> 
> 2. When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> 1) He said repent. when (if) they did repent, they were then saved, at that very moment. and be baptized. salvation occured at repentance. so now whatever baptism they are talking about (water or HS) is after or second. both baptisms will fit in this verse perfectly. because salvation has already occured. since salvation has occured they are now free to go get dunked (if that is what this means) or they are now free to recieve the HS, BECAUSE, they called on the name of JC for forgiveness.  guys, only Jesus saves.  to include anything with the blood of Christ is just wrong.
> 
> 2) it says he would receive the HS after repentance, which totally agrees with the rest of the Bible...



Well there ya go.


----------



## whome

BeenHuntn said:


> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1. Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> 
> 2. When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> 1) He said repent. when (if) they did repent, they were then saved, at that very moment. and be baptized. salvation occured at repentance. so now whatever baptism they are talking about (water or HS) is after or second. both baptisms will fit in this verse perfectly. because salvation has already occured. since salvation has occured they are now free to go get dunked (if that is what this means) or they are now free to recieve the HS, BECAUSE, they called on the name of JC for forgiveness.  guys, only Jesus saves.  to include anything with the blood of Christ is just wrong.
> 
> 2) it says he would receive the HS after repentance, which totally agrees with the rest of the Bible...



Wow... an old Willie Nelson tune comes to mind. 
Rev. 22:14
Rev. 22:19


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Originally Posted by BeenHuntn
> if they are a saved child of God, yes, they have been baptized in the HS... if they are in a cult and call themselves a child of God, i would say probably not.
> 
> Jesus said that after He left, that He would send the Comforter. the Comforter will dwell in every true child of God that has been saved.
> 
> *No He did not*



so God doesnt send the HS to dwell with His true children?
what do you do with these verses?

John 14:15-17 
 15If ye love me, keep my commandments.

 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:7
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 3:7-9
 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 2:17
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 2:18
And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

Romans 7:6
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death

Romans 8:4
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:5
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

1 Corinthians 2:12
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you

1 Corinthians 7:40
But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God

2 Corinthians 1:22
Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 4:13
We having the same spirit of faith

Galatians 3:14
That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,

Ephesians 1:13
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

1 Thessalonians 4:8
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also

1 John 3:24
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given


----------



## Big7

BeenHuntn said:


> why do you read the writings of the early church heretics and believe their doctrines??? nobody in the NT did...



Examples of "early church heretics" ? Please?


----------



## BeenHuntn

Big7 said:


> Examples of "early church heretics" ? Please?



i was just  cf, because he loves the early church fathers...


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> so God doesnt send the HS to dwell with His true children?
> what do you do with these verses?
> 
> John 14:15-17
> 15If ye love me, keep my commandments.
> 
> 16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
> 
> 17Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
> 
> John 14:26
> But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
> 
> John 15:26
> But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
> 
> John 16:7
> Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
> 
> Luke 11:13
> If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
> 
> John 3:5
> Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
> 
> John 3:6
> That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
> 
> John 3:7-9
> 7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
> 
> 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
> 
> John 16:13
> Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
> 
> Acts 2:4
> And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
> 
> Acts 2:17
> And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
> 
> Acts 2:18
> And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
> 
> Romans 7:6
> But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
> 
> Romans 8:1
> There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
> 
> Romans 8:2
> For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death
> 
> Romans 8:4
> That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
> 
> Romans 8:5
> For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
> 
> Romans 8:6
> For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace
> 
> Romans 8:9
> But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
> 
> Romans 8:11
> But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
> 
> Romans 8:14
> For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
> 
> Romans 8:15
> For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 2:12
> Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God
> 
> 1 Corinthians 3:16
> Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you
> 
> 1 Corinthians 7:40
> But she is happier if she so abide, after my judgment: and I think also that I have the Spirit of God
> 
> 2 Corinthians 1:22
> Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 4:13
> We having the same spirit of faith
> 
> Galatians 3:14
> That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
> 
> Galatians 4:6
> And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts,
> 
> Ephesians 1:13
> In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
> 
> 1 Thessalonians 4:8
> He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
> 
> James 2:26
> For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also
> 
> 1 John 3:24
> And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given




Wow! You didn't have to gather all those scriptures.
That was a lot of work.

I'm going to only respond to the first of your scriptures because it's the only one that actually speaks of Holy Spirit Baptism.

In John 13 Jesus is gathered with His apostles having the Pentacost feast.  Jesus also introduces them to the Lord's Supper.
The rest of Chapter 13 and 14 Jesus continues speaking to His apostles preparing them for the time that He will no longer be with them.

*He tells them.... *
John 14:12"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father. 
13"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 
14"If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. 
15"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments. 
16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever; 
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.

25"These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 
26"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.
*Jesus is reassuring the apostles that they will have the Spirit to direct them as they set up Christ's church.

26"When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, 
27and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning. 
*In verse 27 it's clear Jesus is speaking only to His apostles.  Only they have been with Him from the beginning.

Now let's continue. Jesus is still speaking to the apostles.

John 16 (still speaking to apostles)  12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 
13"But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. 
14"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.


*Now look closely at this:

Acts 1:4Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me; 

5for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." 

6So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, "Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?" 

7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 

8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth." 


*In Acts 2, the apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit, just as Jesus had told them.

Acts 2:1When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. 
2And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 
3And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 
4And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. 


****I personally have never been baptized with the Holy Spirit but I have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 2:38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 


The Holy Spirit is a vital part of my Christian journey.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Wow! You didn't have to gather all those scriptures.
> That was a lot of work.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Holy Spirit is not a vital part of my Christian journey.
Click to expand...


i was with you the whole way, until i read the last sentence...

as dio always says, YIKES! 

maybe you're just a stronger man than i am... if i didnt have the HS guiding me the whole way... i'd be the debils #1 recruit... 

it appears you see the baptism of the HS and the filling of the HS as different things... i will have to study it further. 
i dont see it that way but maybe its ignorance....


----------



## Lowjack

BeenHuntn said:


> this means the baptism of the Spirit not water baptism.
> 
> if you could just understand that there are 2 different baptisms taught in the Bible you could possibly see what these verses are speaking of.
> 
> this verse cannot possibly be talking about getting dunked or sprinkled by water.  the thief on the cross went to heaven and did not get "water" baptized as did joseph, mary, moses, everybody from the OT and most from the NT, we have NO proof they were ever water baptized...
> 
> BUT
> 
> everyone who enters heaven will be baptized in the Spirit (not water).
> 
> Matt. 3:11,  "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
> 
> Mark 1:8, "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."�
> 
> Luke 3:16, "John answered and said to them all, 'As for me, I baptize you with water; but One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to untie the thong of His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire."
> 
> John 1:33, "And I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the one who baptizes in the Holy Spirit."
> 
> Acts 1:5, "for John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."
> 
> Acts 11:16, "And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, 'John baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit."



Excellent!


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> i was with you the whole way, until i read the last sentence...
> 
> as dio always says, YIKES!
> 
> maybe you're just a stronger man than i am... if i didnt have the HS guiding me the whole way... i'd be the debils #1 recruit...
> 
> it appears you see the baptism of the HS and the filling of the HS as different things... i will have to study it further.
> i dont see it that way but maybe its ignorance....




You're right.  YIKES

I did a typo.  I corrected it.


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> i was with you the whole way, until i read the last sentence...
> 
> as dio always says, YIKES!
> 
> maybe you're just a stronger man than i am... if i didnt have the HS guiding me the whole way... i'd be the debils #1 recruit...
> 
> it appears you see the baptism of the HS and the filling of the HS as different things... i will have to study it further.
> i dont see it that way but maybe its ignorance....



I don't know why I put the "not" in there.
I'm still in the process of losing my mind.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> This all absolutely amazes me.
> 
> Let me ask two questions about acts 2:38.
> 
> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1.  Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> 
> 2.  When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Note:  If you need to, go to original greek to verify this speaks of water baptism.
> 
> 
> Now, the way you answer these 2 questions will tell you and everyone else how you're able to read a sentence and intellectualize it.
> 
> Please answer.




Lowjack,

Since I'm surprised at your stance on baptism,
would you mind answering the 2 above questions?
That way, everyone can see your thought process in this.
Thanks and good night.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know why I put the "not" in there.
> I'm still in the process of losing my mind.




i thought maybe something was up with that...  not too many (or any) true Christians who will diminish the importance of the HS...

it gets easier when your mind is already lost and cant be found... cant rely on anything but the HS then...  

this has probably been my favorite debate... i have learned alot. i had to study it and had to get my brain outta reverse..


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> It doesn't have to.  If you don't believe, you won't get baptized.*Oh really? you're kidding right?I know plenty of people that were baptized as children or sprinkled as children and yet they don't believe.*  Belief is the first step, but it's not the only step.  If it were, Jesus would not have mentioned baptism here at all.  If baptism is not crucial for salvation, there's no point in constantly bringing it up.*Once again, baptism does not save you.*
> 
> Satan and his demons believe Jesus is the Son of God.  Have they been baptized in the Holy Spirit?*I know some demons who have been baptized, you don't? What's your point.*


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> No.
> 
> On the other hand, why wait a month to get baptized?  Nobody in the NT did.



Were they instantanously baptized....gees you always have to argue every tid bit.....

Ok let's cut it down from a month, to 10 minutes...what if you tripped and fell going up the stairs or into the water...then what...off to the pit you go? Lord help us God, please don't let people believe that giving your son on the cross was not enough, we need baptism in water to receive your salvation.
Our church doesn't baptize the minute after you've said you've accepted Christ? does yours? Y'all have baptism on call every minute of the day? Sheesh.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> Did the ethiopian eunuch wait??? We do know that was a "water baptism" as you would call it.
> Yeah, I don't know what would be anymore important that someone who wants to put on Christ...
> John 14:15
> John 14:21



What if the eunich had gotten kilt on the way to the water, then what? don't tell me you think he would be condemned....please don't tell me that.


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> What then shall we do with Ephesians 4:4-5???
> 4. There is on body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in on hope of your calling;
> 5. One Lord, one faith, one baptism...*JTB said I baptize you in water, He (Jesus will baptize you in the HS...that the one baptism)....there would be no HS unless Christ died and shed His blood and left His spirit with us. We are baptized in the HS, therefore taking on Christ. The outward washing is a testimony, ya know how you witness and give your testimony to others about your belief? Well water baptism is that. Before Jesus died, if everyone just had to believe and get baptized, then why can't we just do that now, why did Jesus die on the cross. He hadn't died during the first of the baptisms, how would anyone have remissions of sins when the blood hadn't been shed yet, of course that's only if you believe it was the blood that saved us and not water. If you believe water saved us, then no cross was needed.*
> 
> I'll ask this again.....Who is the outward sign for?
> So, let me get this right according to you ...salvation come when you believe at your "Holy Spirit Baptism" followed by your "Water Baptism" sort of like an "outward sign of your inner faith."*Let that be a testimony, you are witnessing to other about your faith.*



You think those baptized before the cross had any clue of what their baptism really meant...of course they couldn't have because nobody and that means nobody knew Christ was gonna die on the cross. So you either believe today that the cross saved us or it didn't and water does, just like they did back then.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


>


MW
It doesn't have to. If you don't believe, you won't get baptized.Oh really? you're kidding right?I know plenty of people that were baptized as children or sprinkled as children and yet they don't believe. Belief is the first step, but it's not the only step. If it were, Jesus would not have mentioned baptism here at all. If baptism is not crucial for salvation, there's no point in constantly bringing it up.
Maybe, if you think about your argument here it would be obvious...  You should be well aware that both sprinkling or baptizing children is not scriptural! It's people who teach this the "outward sign of an inner faith" hocus-pocus that leads people to do silly, unscriptural things like that.  

Satan and his demons believe Jesus is the Son of God. Have they been baptized in the Holy Spirit? I know some demons who have been baptized, you don't? What's your point.
Keep grasping at anything you can...


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> MW
> It doesn't have to. If you don't believe, you won't get baptized.Oh really? you're kidding right?I know plenty of people that were baptized as children or sprinkled as children and yet they don't believe. Belief is the first step, but it's not the only step. If it were, Jesus would not have mentioned baptism here at all. If baptism is not crucial for salvation, there's no point in constantly bringing it up.
> Maybe, if you think about your argument here it would be obvious...  You should be well aware that both sprinkling or baptizing children is not scriptural! It's people who teach this the "outward sign of an inner faith"*an inner faith of a child? that's a ridiculous example* hocus-pocus that leads people to do silly, unscriptural things like that.*Same thing you believe, baptism is what saves you.**No actually it's the people that teach baptism is what saves you that generates baby baptism and sprinkling...everyone knows you have to believe BEFORE you're baptisted, not because you're baptized. *
> 
> Satan and his demons believe Jesus is the Son of God. Have they been baptized in the Holy Spirit? I know some demons who have been baptized, you don't? What's your point.
> Keep grasping at anything you can...*Grasping...ok. You mean you don't know anyone who claims to believe and has been baptized have no clue? If you do well you're not paying much attention, because there's people out there that think that sprinkling and early baptism saves you...sigh once again I bring that to your attention. *



We are saved by grace and mercy of God because of the sacrificing of His son Jesus, help the unbelief of those who do not think so and believe that water can save you...those that baptize babies, those who baptize anyone supposedly into salvation, they are both clueless. It's belief in the blood that saves them, not baptized in water.


----------



## mtnwoman

I don't know how to do a poll, could someone do a poll on the subject just to see who believes water baptism brings you into salvation?
I'd be interested in see who believes what.


----------



## whome

To MtnWoman...
So let me get this right... everyone has a "holy spirit" baptism waiting out there for them... and when we believe, that's when we receive our first baptism into Jesus??? Now, our second "water baptism" which is optional, can happen at any time we choose, and should be use as a testimony to others...?


----------



## mtnwoman

whome said:


> To MtnWoman...
> So let me get this right... everyone has a "holy spirit" baptism waiting out there for them... and when we believe, that's when we receive our first baptism into Jesus??? Now, our second "water baptism" which is optional, can happen at any time we choose, and should be use as a testimony to others...?



Of course everyone has a baptism in the HS waiting for them out there, that's what JTB said...I will baptize you in water but He( Jesus) will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
Jesus baptizes us in the HS spirit when we accept who He is...water baptism never baptized into the HS. Water baptism washes our sins away representing the blood of Christ that really washes our sins away. Most of us know the blood is for remission of sins just like the OT.
Water is used in baptism, like wine/bread is used in communion, a representative of.
Why is it so hard to comprehend that the blood is what washed our sins away? That's what the cross is all about. Water is simply a medium that we use instead of blood.

Yes I chose to be baptized, most people do, I've never known anyone who refused...but the water represents the blood that really washed our sins away.

Water alone doesn't wash sins away...the blood does, water represents that.

ETA....baptism in water is scheduled at our church...we don't accept/believe and walk straight to the water...does your church? yes or no...and I mean straight as in 1 to 5 minutes after the acceptance of Christ, just not to confuse you.


----------



## whome

mtnwoman said:


>





mtnwoman said:


> Of course everyone has a baptism in the HS waiting for them out there, that's what JTB said...I will baptize you in water but He( Jesus) will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
> Jesus baptizes us in the HS spirit when we accept who He is...water baptism never baptized into the HS. Water baptism washes our sins away representing the blood of Christ that really washes our sins away. Most of us know the blood is for remission of sins just like the OT.
> Water is used in baptism, like wine/bread is used in communion, a representative of.
> Why is it so hard to comprehend that the blood is what washed our sins away? That's what the cross is all about. Water is simply a medium that we use instead of blood.
> 
> Yes I chose to be baptized, most people do, I've never known anyone who refused...but the water represents the blood that really washed our sins away.
> 
> Water alone doesn't wash sins away...the blood does, water represents that.
> 
> ETA....baptism in water is scheduled at our church...we don't accept/believe and walk straight to the water...does your church? yes or no...  There is no scheduling of one's baptism... someone wants to be baptized they make it happenand I mean straight as in 1 to 5 minutes after the acceptance of Christ, just not to confuse you.



So, by your standards baptism is optional...


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> Of course everyone has a baptism in the HS waiting for them out there, that's what JTB said...I will baptize you in water but He( Jesus) will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
> Jesus baptizes us in the HS spirit when we accept who He is...water baptism never baptized into the HS. Water baptism washes our sins away representing the blood of Christ that really washes our sins away. Most of us know the blood is for remission of sins just like the OT.
> Water is used in baptism, like wine/bread is used in communion, a representative of.
> Why is it so hard to comprehend that the blood is what washed our sins away? That's what the cross is all about. Water is simply a medium that we use instead of blood.
> 
> Yes I chose to be baptized, most people do, I've never known anyone who refused...but the water represents the blood that really washed our sins away.
> 
> Water alone doesn't wash sins away...the blood does, water represents that.
> 
> ETA....baptism in water is scheduled at our church...we don't accept/believe and walk straight to the water...does your church? yes or no...and I mean straight as in 1 to 5 minutes after the acceptance of Christ, just not to confuse you.



Yes.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> What if the eunich had gotten kilt on the way to the water, then what? don't tell me you think he would be condemned....please don't tell me that.



I think it's worth tossing out, that God might have seen to the needs of this new believer.  That water that Philip and the eunich came upon sure did seem convenient.
And the eunich must have been looking for it.
All because of what Philip taught him there in that chariot.

Must be nice to teach Jesus while riding in a chariot.


----------



## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> You think those baptized before the cross had any clue of what their baptism really meant...of course they couldn't have because nobody and that means nobody knew Christ was gonna die on the cross. So you either believe today that the cross saved us or it didn't and water does, just like they did back then.



Good morning.
Read these verses and you'll see that John's baptism was not acceptable after Christ's death and resurrection.

Acts 18:23 And having spent some time there, he left and passed successively through the Galatian region and Phrygia, strengthening all the disciples. 
24Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 
25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John; 
26and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 

*Here's a scripture that will cause you to turn on your thinking light.  
I always does me.
Lots of things contained in these verses.  Such as, baptism, Holy Spirit, power of apostles hands.

Acts 19:
1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 
2He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit." 
3And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism." 
4Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 
5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 
6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Oh really? you're kidding right?I know plenty of people that were baptized as children or sprinkled as children and yet they don't believe.



Jesus is not speaking to children here or in Matthew 28 or in Mark 16 or in John 3.  He's speaking to adults who have the capacity to make decisions for themselves.  

The point is no one will make the decision to be baptized until they have first believed.  See the day of Pentecost in Acts 2 and the Ethiopian eunuch in Acts 8.




mtnwoman said:


> Once again, baptism does not save you.



This is exactly opposite of what is stated in 1 Peter 3:21.




mtnwoman said:


> I know some demons who have been baptized, you don't? What's your point.



That belief alone is not enough.


----------



## centerpin fan

mtnwoman said:


> Were they instantanously baptized....



See Acts 2 and Acts 8 for examples.  Also, see Acts 22:16:

"And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name."




mtnwoman said:


> Ok let's cut it down from a month, to 10 minutes...



I'm sure many of the 3,000 in Acts 2 waited at least ten minutes.




mtnwoman said:


> Our church doesn't baptize the minute after you've said you've accepted Christ? does yours?



Yes.


----------



## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> Good morning.
> Read these verses and you'll see that John's baptism was not acceptable after Christ's death and resurrection.
> 
> Acts 18:23 And having spent some time there, he left and passed successively through the Galatian region and Phrygia, strengthening all the disciples.
> 24Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures.
> 25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John;
> 26and he began to speak out boldly in the synagogue. But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
> 
> *Here's a scripture that will cause you to turn on your thinking light.
> I always does me.
> Lots of things contained in these verses.  Such as, baptism, Holy Spirit, power of apostles hands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Acts 19:
> 1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
> 2He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
> 3And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
> 4Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
> 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
> 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.
Click to expand...


out of ignorance i ask you:

1) what proof is there that this baptism was a water baptism? (19:5)  how do we know they were even near water? it says they were baptized "in the name of Jesus"... it doesnt say they were baptized in the river Jordan...  it just says baptized.  we know there are 2 baptisms taught in the Bible (water and HS).

2) if water saves, why did the HS not come until Paul had laid hands on them?  why didnt the HS come upon them as soon as they were in the water, assuming a water baptism...

3) if water saves, why werent they saved the first time they were water baptized by JTB? i think the water baptism of John was a foreshadowing of what Christ would do by baptizing in the Spirit. we all know that you have to have the Spirit to be child of God.

i think yall pro water folks are pulling out a few verses in the NT to come to your conclusion about the necessity of water instead of the whole of the NT.

the Bible says that we are saved by grace thru faith, over and over and that adding anything to that grace is a dangerous thing to do.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

saying that we must be dunked to be/get/stay saved would be legalistic.  it would be a work. we just read that if we are under the law, we nullify the cross.

if water is necessary. why did Paul say he was commanded to preach the Gospel and not water baptize.  we know that people get saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.  why didnt Paul just go around dunking people?

if water baptism has any saving qualities, why would Paul say he thanked God, he did not water baptize?

1 Corinthians 1:14
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> i think yall pro water folks are pulling out a few verses in the NT to come to your conclusion about the necessity of water instead of the whole of the NT.



Pot, meet kettle.


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Pot, meet kettle.



hey you missed the whole "pot" debate a few months ago... it was as good as this one...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> if water is necessary. why did Paul say he was commanded to preach the Gospel and not water baptize.  we know that people get saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.  why didnt Paul just go around dunking people?
> 
> if water baptism has any saving qualities, why would Paul say he thanked God, he did not water baptize?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1:14
> I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius



I addressed this in post #204.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> hey you missed the whole "pot" debate a few months ago... it was as good as this one...



Yes, I remember that one.  I think I had _one_ post in it.


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> hey you missed the whole "pot" debate a few months ago... it was as good as this one...



Have you seen this one, BH?  I just discovered it.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=215289&highlight=baptism


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Have you seen this one, BH?  I just discovered it.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=215289&highlight=baptism



this thread alone causes enough brain fog in me...  if i read that one too... the damage could be detrimental to health...


----------



## centerpin fan

BeenHuntn said:


> this thread alone causes enough brain fog in me...  if i read that one too... the damage could be detrimental to health...



Yeah, I'll have to go through that one some other time.

Have you "voted" yet?


----------



## BeenHuntn

centerpin fan said:


> Yeah, I'll have to go through that one some other time.
> 
> Have you "voted" yet?



voted


----------



## Ronnie T

BeenHuntn said:


> out of ignorance i ask you:
> 
> 1) what proof is there that this baptism was a water baptism? (19:5)  how do we know they were even near water? it says they were baptized "in the name of Jesus"... it doesnt say they were baptized in the river Jordan...  it just says baptized.  we know there are 2 baptisms taught in the Bible (water and HS).
> 
> 2) if water saves, why did the HS not come until Paul had laid hands on them?  why didnt the HS come upon them as soon as they were in the water, assuming a water baptism...
> 
> 3) if water saves, why werent they saved the first time they were water baptized by JTB? i think the water baptism of John was a foreshadowing of what Christ would do by baptizing in the Spirit. we all know that you have to have the Spirit to be child of God.
> 
> i think yall pro water folks are pulling out a few verses in the NT to come to your conclusion about the necessity of water instead of the whole of the NT.
> 
> the Bible says that we are saved by grace thru faith, over and over and that adding anything to that grace is a dangerous thing to do.
> 
> Galatians 5:4
> Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
> 
> saying that we must be dunked to be/get/stay saved would be legalistic.  it would be a work. we just read that if we are under the law, we nullify the cross.
> 
> if water is necessary. why did Paul say he was commanded to preach the Gospel and not water baptize.  we know that people get saved by hearing and believing the Gospel.  why didnt Paul just go around dunking people?
> 
> if water baptism has any saving qualities, why would Paul say he thanked God, he did not water baptize?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 1:14
> I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius




If, If, If, If.
Don't ask me.  Study all those scriptures and find out.

But again, WATER does not save a person.
A person is saved thru the grace and mercy of God in the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> But again, WATER does not save a person.
> A person is saved thru the grace and mercy of God in the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.



That's the first time I've read where you said this.

You're still saying even though you're saved thru grace and mercy you still have to be baptized to 'really' be saved?


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> That's the first time I've read where you said this.
> 
> *Originally Posted by Ronnie T
> But again, WATER does not save a person.
> A person is saved thru the grace and mercy of God in the sacrifice of His Son on the cross.*
> 
> You're still saying even though you're saved thru grace and mercy you still have to be baptized to 'really' be saved?



This has always been my position.
I totally agree with these scriptures.

Eph 4:
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 
5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 
6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 
7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 
9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

But, and this is a big BUT.
But, over and over again Jesus and the apostles make it clear to me that water baptism plays a significant role in the process.
There is no place in the gospel of Jesus that gives me the option of leaving baptism out.

It even says that in baptism my sins are washed away.
Now I can't tell you precisely why it says my sins are washed away during baptism, but it says it.

I just don't think I have an option in baptism.  It just seems to me that God Himself is working in baptism.

But, if you people want to be a bunch of heathens, go ahead.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> This has always been my position.
> I totally agree with these scriptures.
> 
> Eph 4:
> 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
> 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
> 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
> 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
> 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
> 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
> 
> But, and this is a big BUT.
> But, over and over again Jesus and the apostles make it clear to me that water baptism plays a significant role in the process. *I agree it plays a role, I just don't believe that is the point of salvation. Not saying that baptism doesn't turn on a lightbulb for some folks, baptism is powerful*
> There is no place in the gospel of Jesus that gives me the option of leaving baptism out.*I can agree He commands us to be baptized just like His greatest commandment is to love each other, I just believe we are saved by grace and mercy and then we want to do what He commands us to do...but it's because we've already put on Christ when we accept Him into our hearts.*
> 
> It even says that in baptism my sins are washed away.
> Now I can't tell you precisely why it says my sins are washed away during baptism, but it says it.*I still believe the blood washes our sins away....water to me is like communion, representative of our sins being washed away by the blood.*
> 
> I just don't think I have an option in baptism.  It just seems to me that God Himself is working in baptism.*I'm sure He is, once we open the door and let Him in, He works in us from then on. Baptism is a very emotional thing, still isn't what nails down our salvation. I wanna cry and shout hallelujah at every baptism, expression of that persons faith, and chances are I didn't even know the person had accepted Christ until their baptism.*
> 
> But, if you people want to be a bunch of heathens, go ahead.




I love you Ronnie!!! and since I've been baptized, I'll gather with you at the river!!


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## Ronnie T

mtnwoman said:


> I love you Ronnie!!! and since I've been baptized, I'll gather with you at the river!!



It's gonna be great isn't it?
It's gonna be better than we expect.


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## BeenHuntn

Ronnie T said:


> This has always been my position.
> I totally agree with these scriptures.
> 
> Eph 4:
> 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
> 5even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
> 6and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
> 7so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
> 8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
> 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
> 
> But, and this is a big BUT.
> But, over and over again Jesus and the apostles make it clear to me that water baptism plays a significant role in the process.
> There is no place in the gospel of Jesus that gives me the option of leaving baptism out.
> 
> It even says that in baptism my sins are washed away.
> Now I can't tell you precisely why it says my sins are washed away during baptism, but it says it.
> 
> I just don't think I have an option in baptism.  It just seems to me that God Himself is working in baptism.
> 
> But, if you people want to be a bunch of heathens, go ahead.




i havent seen where we've made light of water baptism. were just saying it doesnt save and has nothing to do with salvation.  faith in the blood saves. being washed in the water is symbolic of the washing of the blood.  yes we should get water baptized after being saved.  just because we are commanded to do it doesnt mean it saves.  we're commanded to not surf porn on the internet, but not surfing porn does not save...

justification is not a process.  sanctification is... at least thats what i believe the Bible teaches.

MW, i'm done with this one... you're on your own...  good luck...  this is a tough crowd...


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Lowjack,
> 
> Since I'm surprised at your stance on baptism,
> would you mind answering the 2 above questions?
> That way, everyone can see your thought process in this.
> Thanks and good night.



As Soon as You Tell me How The Thief on the cross was saved without Baptism and how all the people who perished in the Flood of Noah were saved from hades without knowing Christ, Having Faith or being Baptised.
The Lord Says "I will save whom I will save"and "I alone I'm The Saviour"Doesn't say those who play by the rules of a Church will be saved, does it ?


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## Big7

Anybody got a "dead horse" emotio-con for this thread??


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> As Soon as You Tell me How The Thief on the cross was saved without BaptismBecause Jesus Christ Himself saved him.  On the cross, Jesus had not yet given the command that new believers be baptized.  The fact that Jesus saved the thief doesn't make me dumb, blind and unable to read.  Now would you answer the two questions? and how all the people who perished in the Flood of Noah were saved from hades without knowing ChristDifferent dispensation.  They were saved first thru the obedience of Noah, then because God chose to save them., Having Faith or being Baptised.Isn't there a New Testament area that references the waters of the flood and how New Testament baptism parallels it?
> The Lord Says "I will save whom I will save"and "I alone I'm The Saviour"Doesn't say those who play by the rules of a Church will be savedPersonally, when Jesus told His apostles to go, teach, and baptize, I don't think that falls in the category of 'rules of a church'., does it ?



Chicken!  Wow, you don't want to answer the questions.

I don't have all the answers to why God did, or does anything.
All I can do is live now according to the words left for me.

Now would you answer the questions.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Chicken!  Wow, you don't want to answer the questions.
> 
> I don't have all the answers to why God did, or does anything.
> All I can do is live now according to the words left for me.
> 
> Now would you answer the questions.



The Answer is in my question, "God will save whom he will save"
This knowledge was given to the ancients who wrote the Hebrew Bible, Christ (Messiah) today is the appropriation for our sins, but God the Father will save by the appropriated blood , whomever he wishes to save in whatever time line he lived or will live, applying the blood of the lamb for all of Israel was the Aaronic priesthood's job, applying the blood of the son of God is the Father's Right.
Water Cannot take your sins away ,only the blood of Christ.
Read my post of the origins of Baptism.


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## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> This all absolutely amazes me.
> 
> Let me ask two questions about acts 2:38.
> 
> 38Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 1.  Why is baptism included in the above verse??
> 
> 2.  When does it say they would receive the gift of the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Note:  If you need to, go to original greek to verify this speaks of water baptism.
> 
> 
> Now, the way you answer these 2 questions will tell you and everyone else how you're able to read a sentence and intellectualize it.
> 
> Please answer.




Lowjack.

There's the two questions above.

Those are the kinds of questions a student would ask a Professor of Biblical Studies.

And I think any mature Christian should have to answer them.


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## whome

Ronnie T said:


> I think it's worth tossing out, that God might have seen to the needs of this new believer.  That water that Philip and the eunich came upon sure did seem convenient.
> And the eunich must have been looking for it.
> All because of what Philip taught him there in that chariot.
> 
> Must be nice to teach Jesus while riding in a chariot.


I guess one good thing that all these discussions have done is made me search the scripture that much harder. You read and cross reference and read some more... and so forth... and as I was reading in Acts 8 I was wondering, "Why had it been that important to stop upon seeing water?" It's obvious in this passage; Philip had made some sort of reference in teaching the gospel and the importance of being buried with Christ in baptism. So much so, that the Eunuch obviously recognized this and says look here is water!
     At this point, the Eunuch has heard the word and believes it. So, if believing is all that is required of us, why didn't Philip say continue on... What is the purpose of his baptism here? There is no way anyone can refute that it was a "water" baptism. Is he about to get baptized to make a testimony to Philip, who just taught him? Why would he need to testify to Philip? Who would that benefit?


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## whome

It's interesting to see how people have starting getting away from how baptism is spoken in terms of water in the conversions of the NT. Now, you don't have to look very far to see further division... I wonder why that is? Convenience? Have we gotten smarter? I wouldn't think so... I think it's just more self-seeking or self-centered attitude to the word of God and a lack of willingness to follow it. Have WE found a better way, a way to suit US better, a way WE like better?
Apparently so, we're sprinkling and baptizing babies... we're saying a sinner prayer for salvation, no need to be baptized here... you can if you want to, but it's not necessary. Would hosing someone off or just spraying them with some mist be OK?  Why not start preaching that to people for baptism? Would it not be just as scriptural, as leaving it out altogether? 
How about bacon and oj for the Lord's supper? How about we just do away with that too? Do we really have remember Your death? I mean, I know you died for me, but...

     Yes, God is ultimately going to decide who will or won't be saved, but I can only imagine it will be on how we have followed what He has commanded in the scripture and how we have lived our lives according it... says so in 2 Tim.
I have a hard time coming to terms with making baptism optional and that is what some/a lot of people are trying to do. By saying it isn't necessary for salvation, makes it optional... What is its purpose then? Optional was never, ever taught, so why would we teach it? 

I know it isn't the water that saves you, but the blood of Christ shed on the cross. However, in the same breath, it is baptism and only baptism that takes us into Christ's death; the bible says that as well. I will choose to continue believing and teaching that because it what was commanded. That's what the NT teaches, and there are many conversions where people ask "what must we do", or it was told of them what to "do". Obviously, something else was required on their part other than just believing. However, by many of your standards, those same people's "must do's" today would be considered as "I believe" and consequentially salvation. Yet, they always were baptized.  I don't know why that final act of obedience has become so awfully hard to follow.

Sure I have faith in God, and He will save whomever he wants or deems fit to save, but I also have faith in what his word says, and the faith to fear God and keep what he has commanded. I think we should be very careful about having the feel good, anything goes attitude, which seem so prevalent today. 


A couple of times in Proverbs it says;
There is a way that seems right to a man...


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## earl

Come on Ronnie !!! ''mature'' and LJ in the same post.


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## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> Lowjack.
> 
> There's the two questions above.
> 
> Those are the kinds of questions a student would ask a Professor of Biblical Studies.
> 
> And I think any mature Christian should have to answer them.



Now a professor also teaches by asking questions so that the student comes to self realization, so my question is; is Salvation by Grace through Faith that his sins have being atoned by the Blood of Messiah +Baptism+ Holiness ?
Isn't baptism a works, Isn't living a holy life works ?

If It is then Remove Ephesians 2;9;10 Please.

2nd Question, If I accept Jesus' atonement by his blood Sunday Morning at 10 AM and at 12 PM I die in a Car accident going home from Church and I have not being baptized yet, I'm I saved ? SO the blood of Christ was insufficient to save me ?


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> Isn't baptism a works,



Not according to Titus 3:5.  Paul completely separates the two:

_he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit_


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> 2nd Question, If I accept Jesus' atonement by his blood Sunday Morning at 10 AM and at 12 PM I die in a Car accident going home from Church and I have not being baptized yet, I'm I saved ? SO the blood of Christ was insufficient to save me ?



The blood of Christ is applied to us when we are baptized.  I don't want to rehash my previous 73 posts on this topic, but that's the gist of the matter.


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## Ronnie T

Lowjack said:


> Now a professor also teaches by asking questions so that the student comes to self realization, so my question is; is Salvation by Grace through Faith that his sins have being atoned by the Blood of Messiah +Baptism+ Holiness ?
> Isn't baptism a works, Isn't living a holy life works ?
> 
> If It is then Remove Ephesians 2;9;10 Please.
> 
> 2nd Question, If I accept Jesus' atonement by his blood Sunday Morning at 10 AM and at 12 PM I die in a Car accident going home from Church and I have not being baptized yet, I'm I saved ? SO the blood of Christ was insufficient to save me ?




You answer my questions and I'll gladly and fully answer your questions, as best I can.


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## Lowjack

centerpin fan said:


> The blood of Christ is applied to us when we are baptized.  I don't want to rehash my previous 73 posts on this topic, but that's the gist of the matter.



Start # 74 becausee that is not found in the NT anywhere.


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## centerpin fan

Lowjack said:


> Start # 74 becausee that is not found in the NT anywhere.



Sure it is.  Romans 6 is just one example.  It says we are united with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in baptism.


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## Lowjack

mtnwoman said:


> Of course everyone has a baptism in the HS waiting for them out there, that's what JTB said...I will baptize you in water but He( Jesus) will baptize you in the Holy Spirit.
> Jesus baptizes us in the HS spirit when we accept who He is...water baptism never baptized into the HS. Water baptism washes our sins away representing the blood of Christ that really washes our sins away. Most of us know the blood is for remission of sins just like the OT.
> Water is used in baptism, like wine/bread is used in communion, a representative of.
> Why is it so hard to comprehend that the blood is what washed our sins away? That's what the cross is all about. Water is simply a medium that we use instead of blood.
> 
> Yes I chose to be baptized, most people do, I've never known anyone who refused...but the water represents the blood that really washed our sins away.
> 
> Water alone doesn't wash sins away...the blood does, water represents that.
> 
> ETA....baptism in water is scheduled at our church...we don't accept/believe and walk straight to the water...does your church? yes or no...and I mean straight as in 1 to 5 minutes after the acceptance of Christ, just not to confuse you.



Receiving the Seal of The Holy Spirit and the BAptism of the Holy Spirit are two different things,The seal is received immidiatley when you belive Yeshua atoned for your sins with his Blood, The baptism comes afterwards through the laying of hands.


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## Lowjack

centerpin fan said:


> Sure it is.  Romans 6 is just one example.  It says we are united with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ in baptism.



Better read it carefully because I see the reference To The Holy Spirit being the Uniter or in other words the Father is the Holy Spirit.


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## mtnwoman

Lowjack said:


> 2nd Question, If I accept Jesus' atonement by his blood Sunday Morning at 10 AM and at 12 PM I die in a Car accident going home from Church and I have not being baptized yet, I'm I saved ? *Yes, thanks to the work on the cross 2000 yrs ago.* SO the blood of Christ was insufficient to save me ?*It is sufficient and the only thing we need. We are commanded to show that we believe that thru water baptism, along with the outward evidence of speaking in tongues, handling serpents, and so on. I'd hate to think that even if I break a commandment, which I do every day, that my belief in Christ and His blood isn't powerful and sufficient to keep me saved even as I continue in sin, which is obviously impossible to avoid doing. No matter how hard I try, I break some commandment or another every day...doesn't mean I'm not saved from myself...I am. That's why Jesus died because MAN could not abide by the commandments of God and we were all gonna be doomed.*


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