# Going to Church



## JB0704

I have thought about starting this thread for a while, and have been torn about whether or not it was a good idea.  I have mentioned to several that I would, but am going to try and find an angle to where I can’t be accused of attacking the faith, so, here is my best try……….

Y'all know I don't go, but I don't want anybody to think this is an effort to drive folks away.  It is an effort for me to gather information from you.

Oh, and before anybody says "why ask," let me answer that: because I want your (all who read) opinion and view of what the Bible says on this topic.

1. What is the Biblical case for mandatory Church attendance by believers?

2. What defines Church?  Or, what exactly is Church according to the Bible?  I know "body of Christ," but let's talk about the local Church, the one we say everybody should attend.


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## blood on the ground

i will start by saying i do attend church and i enjoy going, but it wasnt until the last five years that reached this place in my life.
i grew up in very religious home, we attended private christian school and lived our life under the opinion of the pastor and what he thought God would like or dislike. the people were very judgmental and would look down their nose at the other that didnt show every time the doors were open. i always had the feeling that i had to attend or i was going to meet the devil. this drove me away from God and the churchfor a long time. long of the short, i dont think church is mandatory it is something your heart desires while building a personal relationship with God. church? IMO, is a place of worship and if done from the heart could be in your own home. me i choose first baptist of powder springs, its small and full of down to earth people that i can relate to. i respect your post.


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## JB0704

blood on the ground said:


> i will start by saying i do attend church and i enjoy going, but it wasnt until the last five years that reached this place in my life.
> i grew up in very religious home, we attended private christian school and lived our life under the opinion of the pastor and what he thought God would like or dislike. the people were very judgmental and would look down their nose at the other that didnt show every time the doors were open. i always had the feeling that i had to attend or i was going to meet the devil. this drove me away from God and the churchfor a long time. long of the short, i dont think church is mandatory it is something your heart desires while building a personal relationship with God. church? IMO, is a place of worship and if done from the heart could be in your own home. me i choose first baptist of powder springs, its small and full of down to earth people that i can relate to. i respect your post.



Thanks for your comments, and I can relate to your story.  I did not go to a private Christian school, but everything else is was pretty much the same for me.

And I tend to believe that Church can be in the home as well.  I have recently been considering attending a "home church" a friend of mine has started, but have to get to a place where I want to go instead of going out of compulsion.  

I am glad you found a Church which works for you.  I know the one you are talking about, and have heard good things about them.


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## Randy

I attend every evening at 10:00.  never miss it.


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## JB0704

Randy, are you referring to "prayer time," or do you have a specific place where you go?


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## Huntinfool

So, JB, I gather by your post that you do acknowledge that there is a model for "church" in the NT?

I'm basing that off of this part:


> And I tend to believe that Church can be in the home as well.



To confirm that, churches in the NT met in homes, schools and temples and generally wherever they could gather.  There is no mandate for a church building.  A church is more than just a building.


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## Huntinfool

> Randy, are you referring to "prayer time," or do you have a specific place where you go?



I'm guessing he attends "Bedside Baptist Church"?


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## centerpin fan

Here's St. Justin Martyr's take on the subject.  This is not "Bible", but it's a look at how the early church would have answered your question.  It's from his First Apology (emphasis mine.)


_CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS. 

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. _


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So, JB, I gather by your post that you do acknowledge that there is a model for "church" in the NT?.



Yes.



Huntinfool said:


> To confirm that, churches in the NT met in homes, schools and temples and generally wherever they could gather.  There is no mandate for a church building.  A church is more than just a building.



I agree.  But what are your thoughts on what defines a church?


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need.



I love this quote, it gives insight into how they viewed the body should act.  I also see the Biblical context for this, but do not see it in modern application.  It would be hard, because it is very communal.



centerpin fan said:


> But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. [/I]



Now, this is the where, I think, things get confusing.  I believe the top quote is descriptive of how "the body" operates.  Sunday services, then, become a formality.  It seems the modern church is more into the formality of Sunday than the early church was.  Not that that is wrong, it just seems like something got "lost."


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## Randy

JB0704 said:


> Randy, are you referring to "prayer time," or do you have a specific place where you go?


I go into my bedroom and turn on Joyce Meyer.  She is my pastor and Iam there with those thousands in attendance.  And yes I even believe the Bible is clear that women should not be pastors, but she is good and knows the Bible more than any man I have ever known.


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## Randy

centerpin fan said:


> Here's St. Justin Martyr's take on the subject.  This is not "Bible", but it's a look at how the early church would have answered your question.  It's from his First Apology (emphasis mine.)
> 
> 
> _CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.
> 
> And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration. _


The problem with that is Sunday is not the sabbath.  The sabbath is the last day on the week, which is Saturday.  So I go every day.


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## Huntinfool

> I agree. But what are your thoughts on what defines a church?



Trying to gather them.  If you want just the "off the top of my head" answer, here it is.

There is "The Church" (universal) and there is "the church" (local).  The local church is an elder led body of believers who gather together regularly for the purpose of teaching, encouraging, rejoicing with, mourning with, remembering Christ and equipping each other to go out and fulfill the Great Commission.

I think what irks me a little bit about those who claim Christ as savior and yet reject church gatherings is related to my thread that talked about the fact that you cannot love the bridegroom and hate the bride.  It's not possible.

No, I don't believe there is a biblical mandate for attending a church building once a week and dressing up in your Sunday best.  But, yes, there is a mandate for gathering with other believers for the specific purposes listed above and doing it regularly.  

Meeting with a friend at applebee's every once in a while does not fulfill that IMO.

People....fallen people...make churches difficult sometimes.  No argument there.  I've seen it from inside the home of a pastor.


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## Huntinfool

> She is my pastor





> And yes I even believe the Bible is clear that women should not be pastors



I agree....she's really good.  But even she doesn't consider herself a pastor and she says clearly that she is under the headship of her husband.

You do see the contradiction in these two statements, right?  You do see that you just said you know there is a biblical mandate for something...and you choose to ignore it.

I think I know what you're getting at.  You choose to learn scriptural truth from her.  I just think maybe your choice of wording was off a little on this one.


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## JB0704

> I go into my bedroom and turn on Joyce Meyer. She is my pastor and Iam there with those thousands in attendance



I had not even thought about that.  I guess this way of attendance could also include watching on TV.  I tried that, but get distracted.  Also, I feel a need to help out on some level, at least try to meet needs within the community.  That is not for everybody, just how I feel.  But I am glad you have something which works for you.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> There is "The Church" (universal) and there is "the church" (local).  The local church is an elder led body of believers who gather together regularly for the purpose of teaching, encouraging, rejoicing with, mourning with, remembering Christ and equipping each other to go out and fulfill the Great Commission..



I agree with the "elder led body" part of this statement.  I am wondering, because I am no Bible scholar, where the regular "teaching, encouraging, rejoicing" comes into play.  View your Applebee's statement, all of this could happen over lunch.



Huntinfool said:


> I think what irks me a little bit about those who claim Christ as savior and yet reject church gatherings is related to my thread that talked about the fact that you cannot love the bridegroom and hate the bride.  It's not possible..



Yes it is 

Where you and I may different is what defines "the bride" (local body).  I have no problem with the universal body, the local body is where I get "tripped."



Huntinfool said:


> But, yes, there is a mandate for gathering with other believers for the specific purposes listed above and doing it regularly.  Meeting with a friend at applebee's every once in a while does not fulfill that IMO.



Why does lunch at Applebees "miss the mark?"  Not that I totally disagree with you, but am curious as to your justification.

I understand as a PK you probably saw the worst in folks.  It is these things which terrify folks like me about being "vulnerable" (as in submissive, or even belonging) to a local body.


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## centerpin fan

Randy said:


> The problem with that is Sunday is not the sabbath.  The sabbath is the last day on the week, which is Saturday.



For Jews, yes, but the church has always met on Sunday.  Muslims even refer to Christians as "the Sunday people".  Joyce Meyer's church certainly meets on Sunday.  I don't know of any church that doesn't worship on Sunday, other than the Seventh Day Adventists.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> For Jews, yes, but the church has always met on Sunday.  Muslims even refer to Christians as "the Sunday people".  Joyce Meyer's church certainly meets on Sunday.  I don't know of any church that doesn't worship on Sunday, other than the Seventh Day Adventists.



But......would it be wrong if they met on Tuesday?


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## Huntinfool

> Where you and I may different is what defines "the bride" (local body). I have no problem with the universal body, the local body is where I get "tripped."



Then you and I agree....it is not possible.  There is more than one local body.

"the church" is part of "The Church".  The lesser are the components of the greater.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Meeting with a friend at applebee's every once in a while does not fulfill that IMO.



Nor does "just me and God in the deer stand".  Spending time with God in His beautiful world is fine, but it is not a substitute for meeting with and encouraging other believers.

If you read the passage I quoted from St. Justin Martyr, you see that the assembly of the saints was very "others-centered".  I think a lot of people today don't go to church because they "don't get anything out of it".  It's not designed for our entertainment, despite what some churches have turned it into.  The central part of the assembly is communion:  the communion with God through the body and blood of His Son and the communion with other believers.


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## Huntinfool

> Why does lunch at Applebees "miss the mark?" Not that I totally disagree with you, but am curious as to your justification.



It doesn't necessarily.  But most folks I've talked to who reject church give me "well I had lunch with some believers just the other day...I'm good".  That's what I'm getting at.  There is a lack of connection and commitment to the wellbeing of each other that is missing.



> I understand as a PK you probably saw the worst in folks. It is these things which terrify folks like me about being "vulnerable" (as in submissive, or even belonging) to a local body.



There are true followers of Christ in every body.  Find them and you don't have to be terrified about being vulnerable or submissive.


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## Huntinfool

> Nor does "just me and God in the deer stand". Spending time with God in His beautiful world is fine, but it is not a substitute for meeting with and encouraging other believers.



100% true.  Better watch out.  You're about to get some "non-regulars" in this thread now.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> But......would it be wrong if they met on Tuesday?



We occasionally meet on Tuesdays ... and Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays.  Sunday worship has been going on since the beginning, though.


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## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> 100% true.  Better watch out.  You're about to get some "non-regulars" in this thread now.



I'm ready.  I'm wearing shark-proof chain mail, shoulder pads, thigh pads and a football helmet in preparation.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Nor does "just me and God in the deer stand".  Spending time with God in His beautiful world is fine, but it is not a substitute for meeting with and encouraging other believers.



Hold on now, the Bible is clear that God's nature is revealed through creation. There is a huge spiritual benefit to communicating within creation, at least for a country boy like me.

As far as meeting with the believers goes, how organized do you believe it has to be in order to "hit the mark?"  Can having ribs with like-minded folks and discussing God and the Bible work as well?


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> We occasionally meet on Tuesdays ... and Mondays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays.  Sunday worship has been going on since the beginning, though.



Ok, so we might agree that there is no clear mandate for meeting time outside tradition.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> It doesn't necessarily.  But most folks I've talked to who reject church give me "well I had lunch with some believers just the other day...I'm good".  That's what I'm getting at.  There is a lack of connection and commitment to the wellbeing of each other that is missing..



I guess the content of the conversation is what matters. I actually knew of a Church plant which started in a golden corral.  Kind-of keeps in line with the "breaking bread together" concept.  I find folks enjoy fellowship a lot more when it is over BBQ.



Huntinfool said:


> There are true followers of Christ in every body.  Find them and you don't have to be terrified about being vulnerable or submissive.



I agree, but at what cost are we ordered to be willing?  Which is to say, what is the mandate for corporate worship?


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## ASH556

I'll start with what the Bible says:

Hebrews 10:24, 25 (NKJV)



> 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works,
> 
> 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.



You can absolutely commune with God anywhere.  If you've confessed Christ with your lips and received the Holy Spirit, you ARE the church; at least part of it.  

1Corinthians 12:14-26



> 14 For in fact the body is not one member but many.
> 15 If the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 16 And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body,” is it therefore not of the body? 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18 But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19 And if they were all one member, where would the body be?
> 20 But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; nor again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23 And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24 but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25 that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.



The reason for being a part of the local body is to give, receive, and build relationships.  A preacher on TV cannot hold you accountable if you begin to stumble.  He/she cannot come visit you in the hospital.  He/she cannot bring your family a meal when you have a new baby.  Likewise, you cannot share and spur the television congregation onto good works.  You cannot serve that congregation in the helps ministries.  

I'm not saying that using television and radio for supplements is a bad thing, but it simply cannot replace the local body.  

It is, however, a discouraging trend that seems more and more common:  Folks attend a local body or grew up in one and were hurt by a person or persons at that body.  They then harden their hearts against the local body altogether and decide that it can be just them and God, but not God's people.  

The Bible speaks clearly and directly about this too:

1John 4:20


> 20 If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, how can[a] he love God whom he has not seen?



A social gathering is a social gathering.  That's not to say that social gatherings are not good and healthy, but they still cannot replace fellowship with the body of Christ with the express purpose of worshiping and teaching.  It's about focus.  It's about submitting your flesh and carnal nature to the things of God.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> I also see the Biblical context for this, but do not see it in modern application.  It would be hard, because it is very communal.



I dunno.  It's pretty much what we do every week.




JB0704 said:


> Now, this is the where, I think, things get confusing.  I believe the top quote is descriptive of how "the body" operates.  Sunday services, then, become a formality.  It seems the modern church is more into the formality of Sunday than the early church was.  Not that that is wrong, it just seems like something got "lost."



I dunno again.  The early church was pretty into congregational worship.  And I don't know if anything has been lost so much as other things have come into our lives to push God out.


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## stringmusic

centerpin fan said:


> Nor does "just me and God in the deer stand".  Spending time with God in His beautiful world is fine, but it is not a substitute for meeting with and encouraging other believers.
> 
> If you read the passage I quoted from St. Justin Martyr, you see that the assembly of the saints was very "others-centered".  I think a lot of people today don't go to church because they "don't get anything out of it".  It's not designed for our entertainment, despite what some churches have turned it into.  The central part of the assembly is communion:  the communion with God through the body and blood of His Son and the communion with other believers.


Fantastic CP.


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## centerpin fan

Josh Vibert said:


> The reason for being a part of the local body is to give, receive, and build relationships.  A preacher on TV cannot hold you accountable if you begin to stumble.  He/she cannot come visit you in the hospital.  He/she cannot bring your family a meal when you have a new baby.  Likewise, you cannot share and spur the television congregation onto good works.  You cannot serve that congregation in the helps ministries.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> There is a huge spiritual benefit to communicating within creation, at least for a country boy like me.



... and for this country boy, too.


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## JB0704

Josh Vibert said:


> The reason for being a part of the local body is to give, receive, and build relationships..



Absolutely agree, but this can be done outside of traditional organization.



Josh Vibert said:


> He/she cannot come visit you in the hospital.  He/she cannot bring your family a meal when you have a new baby. ..



Many modern preachers say this is not their job.  Many on here agree with that sentiment, there was another thread on this recently.



Josh Vibert said:


> It is, however, a discouraging trend that seems more and more common:  Folks attend a local body or grew up in one and were hurt by a person or persons at that body.  They then harden their hearts against the local body altogether and decide that it can be just them and God, but not God's people.



The problem is that I don't see necessity in the "hurt."  I have yet to see where my interaction with other believers does not line up with scripture.  I do not attend an organized gathering, but don't see how I "miss the mark" yet.  



Josh Vibert said:


> A social gathering is a social gathering.  That's not to say that social gatherings are not good and healthy, but they still cannot replace fellowship with the body of Christ with the express purpose of worshiping and teaching.  It's about focus.  It's about submitting your flesh and carnal nature to the things of God.



Right, but the NT church describes a very social "body."  The devoted themselves to prayer and breaking bread together.....fellowship.  Again, where does the corporate part of the matter come into play?


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## Randy

Huntinfool said:


> I agree....she's really good.  But even she doesn't consider herself a pastor and she says clearly that she is under the headship of her husband.
> 
> You do see the contradiction in these two statements, right?  You do see that you just said you know there is a biblical mandate for something...and you choose to ignore it.
> 
> I think I know what you're getting at.  You choose to learn scriptural truth from her.  I just think maybe your choice of wording was off a little on this one.


No it is definately contradictory and I struggle with it daily.  Yes she says she is not a pasttor but a teacher yet she constantly says "I am preaching good tonight."  Teacher teach preachers preach.  And yes I know she sasy  she is doing this under the headship of her husband, she has to to get around the scripture.  But she quacks like a duck, she is a duck.  I am still struggling with it.


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## Huntinfool

> Hold on now, the Bible is clear that God's nature is revealed through creation. There is a huge spiritual benefit to communicating within creation, at least for a country boy like me.



and me....and I'm sure CF as well.  But he didn't say it was bad.  He said it's not a substitute for a body of believers as many claim it is.

It's the "I only need God" claim.  God created us to need other people.  He can supply everything....but he chooses to use others to minister with him...and yes, if you need it, there is biblical justification for that.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> I dunno.  It's pretty much what we do every week.



I was talking more about the "helping each other" and the community "feel" the early church had.

The modern church, at least the ones I have been to, are very organized, very cold, and very Sunday oriented.  "The body" falls apart after the service.

I think the concept of "local body" is better served by small groups of people who encourage each other, help each other, pray together, and give to others in need.  Not going and listening to a band play 5 songs, a preacher give his once a week speech (modern trend), having one song, then leaving and forgetting all about each other.  It seems the community aspect is what is missing.

Why be part of a body that only cares about each other for a few hours on Sunday?


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> and me....and I'm sure CF as well.  But he didn't say it was bad.  He said it's not a substitute for a body of believers as many claim it is.
> 
> It's the "I only need God" claim.  God created us to need other people.  He can supply everything....but he chooses to use others to minister with him...and yes, if you need it, there is biblical justification for that.



What if you are hunting with other believers, fellowshipping together, and pray together, break bread together.  I contend that hunting camp can be a more biblical church than the traditional organized church.


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## Randy

centerpin fan said:


> For Jews, yes, but the church has always met on Sunday.  Muslims even refer to Christians as "the Sunday people".  Joyce Meyer's church certainly meets on Sunday.  I don't know of any church that doesn't worship on Sunday, other than the Seventh Day Adventists.


Correct, they are all not following the requirements of the sabbath.  But hey ther e are a lot more things churchs do not follow.


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## JB0704

Randy said:


> But hey ther e are a lot more things churchs do not follow.



cough, cough, head pastor, cough, cough


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## ASH556

JB0704 said:
			
		

> Many modern preachers say this is not their job.  Many on here agree with that sentiment, there was another thread on this recently.


They they have missed the mark of their calling.  However, just becase some pastors are disfunctional, that doesn't mean you don't need one.





			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> The problem is that I don't see necessity in the "hurt."  I have yet to see where my interaction with other believers does not line up with scripture.  I do not attend an organized gathering, but don't see how I "miss the mark" yet.


  It's not a salvation issue.  You're not going to the Lake of Fire because you didn't regularly attend "Church", but it's a highly recommended by Scripture way to ensure spiritual growth.





			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> Right, but the NT church describes a very social "body."  The devoted themselves to prayer and breaking bread together.....fellowship.  Again, where does the corporate part of the matter come into play?



Acts 2:1-4


> 1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord[a] in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.



Do you think the Pentecost Spirit Filling would have happened or at least have had the same effect if they were not assembled all in the same place?  I don't.  I think their devotion to waiting together, in the same place, on the Holy Spirit was key to their encounter.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> If you read the passage I quoted from St. Justin Martyr, you see that the assembly of the saints was very "others-centered".  I think a lot of people today don't go to church because they "don't get anything out of it".  It's not designed for our entertainment, despite what some churches have turned it into.



I agree here, and believe that most of what folks go to Church for is "me-oriented."  I can't tell you how many times I have heard sermons critiqued based on delivery, and not content.  But, what is the organization for?  If the community aspect can be accomplished otuside the traditional setting?

My struggle is that I have seen Church be a compulsory aspect of our spiritual lives, and not something we do out of desire.  For instance, I love giving now, I always hated "having" to write a check to church.  But I was always told that I had to give 10% to the Church I attended.  Once I quit going to church, I absolutely love giving freely to the needs I come across.


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## Huntinfool

> What if you are hunting with other believers, fellowshipping together, and pray together, break bread together. I contend that hunting camp can be a more biblical church than the traditional organized church.



Can be.  So can a gathering at a coffee shop or a bar for that matter.  The problem is "consistent gathering".  Meet at hunting camp consistently for an extended period of time (not just the 3 or 4o months of hunting season), support each other and train each other up for express purpose of spreading the gospel...and you've got yourself a church right there in the woods.

But, if this is all you've ever experienced...



> The modern church, at least the ones I have been to, are very organized, very cold, and very Sunday oriented. "The body" falls apart after the service.



...then, quite frankly, you need to look harder.  There are at least several churches in every community that don't look like that.  They are not difficult to find.  They are, for the most part, loving, inclusive, uplifting bodies that don't "fall apart" after the service on Sunday.  They support each other, help each other when needed, meet consistently throughout the week, etc.  

There are at least several in every community I've ever lived in that don't look like your typical gathering of the dead.  If you're really looking for one, they are not hard to find.

I think that's what bugs me a little about folks who say that the local church turns them off.  I cannot believe that they've really tried to find a body that is functioning well.  Most of the time (and I'm not accusing you of this) they've been to one church, had a bad experience and written the whole thing off because it's easier to say the local church is broken than trying to find one that isn't.

Ultimately, the purpose of the church is to spread the gospel.  If you're just meeting (wherever) just to check the box off or to "get something"....you do not have a church body....steeple or not.


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## ASH556

JB0704 said:


> I was talking more about the "helping each other" and the community "feel" the early church had.
> 
> The modern church, at least the ones I have been to, are very organized, very cold, and very Sunday oriented.  "The body" falls apart after the service.
> 
> I think the concept of "local body" is better served by small groups of people who encourage each other, help each other, pray together, and give to others in need.  Not going and listening to a band play 5 songs, a preacher give his once a week speech (modern trend), having one song, then leaving and forgetting all about each other.  It seems the community aspect is what is missing.
> 
> Why be part of a body that only cares about each other for a few hours on Sunday?



The body I fellowship with is not that way at all.  They really do function like a body.  The house church/homegroup thing is certainly a viable alternative if there is no official "church" in your area that operates as it should.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> The modern church, at least the ones I have been to, are very organized, very cold, and very Sunday oriented.  "The body" falls apart after the service.
> 
> I think the concept of "local body" is better served by small groups of people who encourage each other, help each other, pray together, and give to others in need.  Not going and listening to a band play 5 songs, a preacher give his once a week speech (modern trend), having one song, then leaving and forgetting all about each other.  It seems the community aspect is what is missing.



That is unfortunate but true for a lot of churches.  I don't think my church is like that, and there are certainly many others who are not like that.


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## JB0704

Josh Vibert said:


> Do you think the Pentecost Spirit Filling would have happened or at least have had the same effect if they were not assembled all in the same place?  I don't.  I think their devotion to waiting together, in the same place, on the Holy Spirit was key to their encounter.



I agree with you, and see power in numbers.  But when do the numbers become cumbersome to the purpose?  This is why I honestly think, sometimes, organization (which is a natural by-product of growth) can take the place of personal worship and involvement, to the detriment of the body.


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## ASH556

JB0704 said:


> I agree with you, and see power in numbers.  But when do the numbers become cumbersome to the purpose?  This is why I honestly think, sometimes, organization (which is a natural by-product of growth) can take the place of personal worship and involvement, to the detriment of the body.



Absolutely it can and has, but again, that's man's perrogative to decide if he's going to let it interrupt the Spirit.  If he does, time to go somewhere else.  Even so, most "Mega" Churches have small groups to counteract that effect.  If that's not your thing, find a smaller church that "is" the small group.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> My struggle is that I have seen Church be a compulsory aspect of our spiritual lives, and not something we do out of desire.  For instance, I love giving now, I always hated "having" to write a check to church.  But I was always told that I had to give 10% to the Church I attended.  Once I quit going to church, I absolutely love giving freely to the needs I come across.



I have been a member of a church where giving sometimes felt like paying protection money to the mob.  It was not a pleasant experience.  I'm in a different church, now, and I enjoy giving.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Can be.  So can a gathering at a coffee shop or a bar for that matter.  The problem is "consistent gathering".  Meet at hunting camp consistently for an extended period of time (not just the 3 or 4o months of hunting season), support each other and train each other up for express purpose of spreading the gospel...and you've got yourself a church right there in the woods..



But what is "biblically consistent?



Huntinfool said:


> ...then, quite frankly, you need to look harder.  There are at least several churches in every community that don't look like that.  They are not difficult to find.  They are, for the most part, loving, inclusive, uplifting bodies that don't "fall apart" after the service on Sunday.  They support each other, help each other when needed, meet consistently throughout the week, etc.  .



I think it is hard to accomplish with the modern trend of the "mega-church."  Even the small ones are trying to look and act like the big ones.  I was part of big and small, and have visited many.  There is more to the story here, and we can discuss more in detail.  What I am trying to get from you, and everybody, is what is the biblically ideal church, not the personally ideal church?  



Huntinfool said:


> I think that's what bugs me a little about folks who say that the local church turns them off.



So, do you think the modern Church structure should work for everyone?  Is that the Biblical mandate?


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## Inthegarge

I think of verses that say "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves as the manner of some are".....or "As often as you come together"...BUT none of these are commandments... I believe we need regular assemblies but there is nothing wrong with other meeting to discuss Biblical items.....I belong to an Outdoors Bible Study and a Professionals Bible Study....


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## JB0704

Josh Vibert said:


> Absolutely it can and has, but again, that's man's perrogative to decide if he's going to let it interrupt the Spirit.  If he does, time to go somewhere else.  Even so, most "Mega" Churches have small groups to counteract that effect.  If that's not your thing, find a smaller church that "is" the small group.



I was in a "mega-church" for many years.  They tried to accomplish the community aspect through small groups.  What happened, though, is that there was a huge disconnect between the leaders and the individual groups within the Church.  There was so much going on that folks didn't know about, and didn't care about.  All they cared about was their individual connection.  But, in reality, they were actively supporting some pretty awful stuff.  They blindly followed the "leadership" without having a clue as to how the leadership actually functioned.


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## JB0704

Inthegarge said:


> I think of verses that say "Forsake not the assembling of yourselves as the manner of some are".....or "As often as you come together"...BUT none of these are commandments... I believe we need regular assemblies but there is nothing wrong with other meeting to discuss Biblical items.....I belong to an Outdoors Bible Study and a Professionals Bible Study....



I was part of a men's Bible study for many years, and even though we don't meet once a week anymore, we are all still very close and gather somewhat regularly for fellowship, but it is not organized at all, we just have dinner and discuss things.


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## Huntinfool

> But what is "biblically consistent?



Are you looking to do the minimum?



> So, do you think the modern Church structure should work for everyone?



It's difficult to get around the elder led part without, in some way, resembling the modern church structure to a degree.  



> Is that the Biblical mandate?



It would be easier to answer both of these if you defined "modern church structure" for me.  I would guess we are operating off of two different concepts.

Going to church is not a biblical mandate.  Not forsaking to gather together with believers for the purposes listed in other posts above is a biblical mandate.

If you're trying to argue that the modern church does not fit the biblical mandate, you're wrong.  There are plenty of churches that do in fine regard.  If you're making the case that you do not have to attend a church building on Sunday morning at 11AM and be finished at 12, you are right.  But be careful not to take it to the extreme and try to "get by with the minimum".


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## Huntinfool

I think what I'm hearing in all of this is a desire to find out that you're ok to not be part of a local church.  I just would be curious as to why.  I know the bad experiences.  But why have you given up?


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## safebuilder

Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together(previously quoted) and Jesus when he read from the scrolls the Bible says "as was his custom". Church bodies (First Baptist, St. James Methodist, etc) have members and/or attenders who are all part of "the Church" which is the body of believers in Jesus' shed blood and resurrection and referred to in the Bible as "the bride of Christ". My opinion is get plugged into a body of believers anf join in corporate worship and service.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Are you looking to do the minimum?



No. What is Biblically consistent?




Huntinfool said:


> It's difficult to get around the elder led part without, in some way, resembling the modern church structure to a degree.



I agree.  But consider this, if this forum were a "church" (and I think there is a strong case that it could be defined that way), who would be the elders?  I believe you and I might agree on a  few of them.  My point is this, does an "elder" have to be officially recognized as such?  Or can it be the "wise men" who everybody looks to?  I honestly don't know the answer to that.



Huntinfool said:


> It would be easier to answer both of these if you defined "modern church structure" for me.  I would guess we are operating off of two different concepts..



When I say modern Church structure I mean this: Head Pastor, elders (if any) who are limited to advisory roles, Sunday morning services that have music - preaching - music.  Then everybody goes back to their lives.



Huntinfool said:


> Going to church is not a biblical mandate.  Not forsaking to gather together with believers for the purposes listed in other posts above is a biblical mandate.
> 
> If you're trying to argue that the modern church does not fit the biblical mandate, you're wrong.  There are plenty of churches that do in fine regard.  If you're making the case that you do not have to attend a church building on Sunday morning at 11AM and be finished at 12, you are right.  But be careful not to take it to the extreme and try to "get by with the minimum".



First, I am not trying to argue anything.  Please refer to the OP where I specifically state that I am looking to hear opinions.  A natural point and counter point will follow, but I am not trying to argue so much, but bounce stuff and see if anything "sticks."

Second, if there is no mandate to be part of the modern church, could there be "outside the box" way sto meet the things which are mandated biblically?  Randy had a good idea.  A "small group" type organization, maybe?  Do we have to have a building?  Does a person have to go to Sunday mornign worship to be part of the "body?"  In a bit I will describe what I do, and see if you think it "fits," for now I am enjoying getting everybody's insight.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I think what I'm hearing in all of this is a desire to find out that you're ok to not be part of a local church.  I just would be curious as to why.  I know the bad experiences.  But why have you given up?



Come on now.....we are doing good today....let's not read too much into things...


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## Huntinfool

So you haven't given up on the local church?  There is nothing wrong with me telling you what I'm hearing.  Just tell me I'm not hearing correctly.


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## JB0704

safebuilder said:


> Forsake not the assembling of yourselves together(previously quoted) and Jesus when he read from the scrolls the Bible says "as was his custom". Church bodies (First Baptist, St. James Methodist, etc) have members and/or attenders who are all part of "the Church" which is the body of believers in Jesus' shed blood and resurrection and referred to in the Bible as "the bride of Christ". My opinion is get plugged into a body of believers anf join in corporate worship and service.



Thanks for your thoughts.  I think I personally do a cost-benefit analysis in reference to corporate worship.  This is why I do not belong to an "organized" body at this time.  If the corporate stuff were a mandate, my thoughts would be very different.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So you haven't given up on the local church?  There is nothing wrong with me telling you what I'm hearing.  Just tell me I'm not hearing correctly.



But, last time I tried that you implied I was wrong, and you knew more about what I was saying than I did?  But, you are wrong.  That is not what I am saying.  I am throwing out ideas and thoughts and seeing what comes floating back.  It has been very good so far.

Could you please answer the question about biblical consistency?


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## blood on the ground

Huntinfool said:


> Are you looking to do the minimum?
> 
> 
> 
> It's difficult to get around the elder led part without, in some way, resembling the modern church structure to a degree.
> 
> 
> 
> It would be easier to answer both of these if you defined "modern church structure" for me.  I would guess we are operating off of two different concepts.
> 
> Going to church is not a biblical mandate.  Not forsaking to gather together with believers for the purposes listed in other posts above is a biblical mandate.
> 
> If you're trying to argue that the modern church does not fit the biblical mandate, you're wrong.  There are plenty of churches that do in fine regard.  If you're making the case that you do not have to attend a church building on Sunday morning at 11AM and be finished at 12, you are right.  But be careful not to take it to the extreme and try to "get by with the minimum".



what is the minimum? attendance without salvation or salvation without attendace? im not trying to be a jerk im really asking because i have never thought of a spiritual minimum. maybe i am guilty of this! i am a believer and i attend church but i dont do every thing i can to bring people to Christ.


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## Huntinfool

> No. What is Biblically consistent?



We are told simply to not neglect gathering as some do.  



> But consider this, if this forum were a "church" (and I think there is a strong case that it could be defined that way), who would be the elders?



I don't agree that we could define this as a church.  I only know one person who frequents this area personally.  I have no relationship with anybody in here deeper than surface interaction on this board.  I don't think I would consider a close body of believers.  It is a gathering for sure.



> My point is this, does an "elder" have to be officially recognized as such?



Yes, otherwise they have no authority to lead or do anything else that is required of an elder.  It is an "office" as defined in the NT with requirements.



> Or can it be the "wise men" who everybody looks to?



If all don't recognize his authority in the body, then he is not leading IMO.  He must be recognized.  There is more to being an elder than just wisdom.


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## tomtlb66

Ok, IMO, i believe a "church" is another home if you will, where you are fed the word and supported by other believers in a loving manner. It is a place that is held specifically for worshiping God, drawing closer to God and learning His word. It is a place where all believers gather in one accord to seek God, to touch God, to draw closer to God and to put the things of this world behind us. I need church, it is a way of fellowship with my brothers and sisters, its another home to me. I hope that helps


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## blood on the ground

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.  I think I personally do a cost-benefit analysis in reference to corporate worship.  This is why I do not belong to an "organized" body at this time.  If the corporate stuff were a mandate, my thoughts would be very different.



i had the same thought also until i joined the church i attend now. i can see the money we give working in our community and globally. every spring break the men of the church will go out and make home repairs free of charge for the less fortunate in our community. they sponcer missionarys around the world so it makes me feel better about giiving.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I don't agree that we could define this as a church.  I only know one person who frequents this area personally.  I have no relationship with anybody in here deeper than surface interaction on this board.  I don't think I would consider a close body of believers.  It is a gathering for sure.



I have met with some on here, tried to meet with others.  The point is, we discuss faith, and scripture, and we got a crazy turkey hunter who is always trying to "spur people" or push them to a deeper faith.  I believe we have one member who plans on organizing a regional meeting.



Huntinfool said:


> Yes, otherwise they have no authority to lead or do anything else that is required of an elder.  It is an "office" as defined in the NT with requirements..



What authority does an elder have in your life that you don't personally give him?  If you don't like what the elders at your church do, you can leave, and the authority he has is worthless.

Here is where I am going with that:  the "elders" in my life are wise men who I listen to, and follow instruction from.  These men gained my respect, and now, I go to them regularly with questions and conflicts.  One is a preacher in Missouri, one works for a children's home, one is a school teacher.  But I recognize all of them.


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## JB0704

tomtlb66 said:


> Ok, IMO, i believe a "church" is another home if you will, where you are fed the word and supported by other believers in a loving manner. It is a place that is held specifically for worshiping God, drawing closer to God and learning His word. It is a place where all believers gather in one accord to seek God, to touch God, to draw closer to God and to put the things of this world behind us. I need church, it is a way of fellowship with my brothers and sisters, its another home to me. I hope that helps



It does, and thanks for your comments.  I guess I have never found a "church home," in that, I felt I was a part of a body.  I have always seen members be dispensable when they didn't "fit" anymore.

I am glad you have found a different experience.


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## JB0704

blood on the ground said:


> every spring break the men of the church will go out and make home repairs free of charge for the less fortunate in our community. they sponcer missionarys around the world so it makes me feel better about giiving.



....I love it when Churches do stuff like that.  That is the most appealing part of organization to me, in that, you are better able to serve when you have a body you can organize to a goal.  

It is when the organization is for the sake of organization, not service, that I kind-of get lost.


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## Huntinfool

> what is the minimum?



I don't know that there is a minimum.  Consistent is necessary for maintaining deep and close relationships.  How many times per week does that equate to?  I don't know and there isn't a biblical mandate.  I suppose a good rule of thumb is whether there are believers (outside of your spouse) who know you deeply enough to help you grow and hold you accountable.  Meet often enough to maintain relationships like that.



> i am a believer and i attend church but i dont do every thing i can to bring people to Christ.



None of us do bud.  None of us do.  Being part of a close body of believers should keep us from getting complacent in that though.


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## Huntinfool

> and we got a crazy turkey hunter who is always trying to "spur people" or push them to a deeper faith






Now THAT...is funny right there.  Probably the most truthful thing that has ever been typed on your keyboard JB.


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## ASH556

JB0704 said:


> When I say modern Church structure I mean this: Head Pastor, elders (if any) who are limited to advisory roles, Sunday morning services that have music - preaching - music.  Then everybody goes back to their lives.




That may be the case with some (even many) churches, but it certainly doesn't describe all Churches.

If that's your current definition of "Church" then I agree, I wouldn't want to be a part of that either.

I think part of the issue may be the definition of "modern Church."

Even so, how flawed was the Synagogue during Jesus' life?  Flawed enough that Jesus had to go in and "clean house."  Flawed enough that the leadership flogged and crucified him.  However, it has been pointed out that it was Jesus' custom to regularly attend said flawed Synagogue.

Psalm 69:9, John 2:17


> Zeal for your house has consumed me



How can you become consumed with Zeal for God's house if there isn't one designated for him (ala meeting at Golden Corral, deer camp, etc.)

Because of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the body, we no longer have to go to a specific place to encounter God's presence, but I don't think that means we shouldn't designate a place as sacred for God's house.  If that were the case, then why would there be such importance placed upon the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem in Revelation?


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I don't know that there is a minimum.  Consistent is necessary for maintaining deep and close relationships.  How many times per week does that equate to?  I don't know and there isn't a biblical mandate.  I suppose a good rule of thumb is whether there are believers (outside of your spouse) who know you deeply enough to help you grow and hold you accountable.  Meet often enough to maintain relationships like that.



Ok then, what I do is consistent with this.  In fact, the "body of believers" I am part of just went to Montgomery to watch one of us be commisioned an officer in the Air Force yesterday (not me, I am not military, but I went to watch and support).

But, we are not organized, don't have a building, don't have anything regulraly.  Just get-togethers where we fellowship, eat, and stuff.  We all help each out.  We hold each other accountable.  But, there is no name, no head pastor, no band, no anything.  Just a group of friends.


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## Huntinfool

> What authority does an elder have in your life that you don't personally give him? If you don't like what the elders at your church do, you can leave, and the authority he has is worthless.



He has authority of the body of believers that I am part of.  I can choose to leave that body.  You are right.  But I cannot stay and refuse to acknowledge the elders' authority.  

As I've discussed before.  I've been on the business end of Matthew 18 discipine within a body.  I could have chosen to walk away from that body.  But I recognized my error and corrected it with God's help and the help of the elders (and others).  They have authority over me as long as I choose to be part of that body.



> Here is where I am going with that: the "elders" in my life are wise men who I listen to, and follow instruction from. These men gained my respect, and now, I go to them regularly with questions and conflicts. One is a preacher in Missouri, one works for a children's home, one is a school teacher. But I recognize all of them.



I am glad you have them in your life.  Even though they are wise and likely qualify, I don't think they are elders in the biblical sense though.


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## Huntinfool

> If that's your current definition of "Church" then I agree, I wouldn't want to be a part of that either.



Me either...and yes, we are operating with two very different definitions.


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## JB0704

Josh Vibert said:


> That may be the case with some (even many) churches, but it certainly doesn't describe all Churches.
> 
> If that's your current definition of "Church" then I agree, I wouldn't want to be a part of that either.
> 
> I think part of the issue may be the definition of "modern Church."



Maybe so, but it is all I have ever seen.  Even in the Churches I grew up in, nobody really cared about each other.  Sure, a few were friends with each other.  But the guy in the front row had no idea the guy in the back was going through a divorce.  There has always been a lack of community which, I believe, is an unfortunant aspect of organization.  People rely on the organization to meet the needs rather than personally being "the body."



Josh Vibert said:


> How can you become consumed with Zeal for God's house if there isn't one designated for him (ala meeting at Golden Corral, deer camp, etc.)
> 
> Because of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the body, we no longer have to go to a specific place to encounter God's presence, but I don't think that means we shouldn't designate a place as sacred for God's house.  If that were the case, then why would there be such importance placed upon the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem in Revelation?



Hmmm.....I had never really considered this.....good thoughts!  I am not sure.  I have never been consumed with zeal for God's house, but only because I always looked at the building as such.  But if the building is just a gathering place, is it God's house?  If the believers inside are not acting like the body......


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Me either...and yes, we are operating with two very different definitions.



Then let's get on the same page, what is your definition of modern church structure?


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Even though they are wise and likely qualify, I don't think they are elders in the biblical sense though.



Actually, one might not qualify (he has never been married so is not the husband of one wife  , just thought I wuold point out another angle on that one).

But, how are they not elders in the Biblical sense? I am genuine here, not trying to argue.

Also, could you please answer what is Biblicaly consistent?  I know what I believe is consistent, but what would qualify as Biblically consistent?


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## Huntinfool

> don't have anything regularly



This is where you lose me.  Just personally.  

Consistently, but not regularly?  I suppose if by regularly, you just mean you don't have an assigned day and time.  Then I get it kind of.

It just seems like setting aside a time and place to meet for the purpose of communing regularly with others in the presence of God puts the focus on making our lives fit rather than squeezing God's time into our lives.  Does that make sense?

I suppose that's why it's important to me to "set aside" specific times for matters of God.  Early mornings are my time with him alone.  Before bedtime is my time to bring my family together to worship.  Sundays (and thursday nights)...those are my time, to bring my family into corporate worship with other believers.

All other things in my life defer to those times.  I do not fit God's time into my life.  I fit my life around God's time.

Admittedly...I fail to keep those times sometimes.  But I hope you follow the point I'm trying to make.


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## ASH556

JB0704 said:


> Hmmm.....I had never really considered this.....good thoughts!  I am not sure.  I have never been consumed with zeal for God's house, but only because I always looked at the building as such.  But if the building is just a gathering place, is it God's house?  If the believers inside are not acting like the body......



Depends upon if God is there or not.  When God encountered Moses at the burning bush, He Himself declared the place to be Holy ground and commanded Moses to remove his sandals.  After God's spirit left the place, was it still holy?

When the Isrealites were carrying around the Ark and setting it up in the Holy of Holies inside the Tabernacle, any man who entered besides the High Priest would be instantly killed.  However, when they moved the camp and God's spirit moved from the Holy of Holies to the pillar of fire or cloud, was that ground still holy?  Surely someone might have stood on that same piece of ground after the Tabernacle was moved.


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## Huntinfool

> Also, could you please answer what is Biblicaly consistent? I know what I believe is consistent, but what would qualify as Biblically consistent?



There isn't a Webster's Bible Dictionary.  So there isn't a prescribed number of times per week that = "consistent".  Here is what I offered earlier.  It's as often as is necessary.  Personally one hour per week is not enough.  I don't know how one would maintain doing that or even less.



> Consistent is necessary for maintaining deep and close relationships. How many times per week does that equate to? I don't know and there isn't a biblical mandate. I suppose a good rule of thumb is whether there are believers (outside of your spouse) who know you deeply enough to help you grow and hold you accountable. Meet often enough to maintain relationships like that.





> But, how are they not elders in the Biblical sense? I am genuine here, not trying to argue.



"elder" is an office of an organized body of believers, even if it's loosly organized.  They hold a position of authority over that body.  You, alone, do not qualify as a body of believers.  If you and others come together as a body and universally recognize them as fitting the biblical qualifications and then call them to the office of elder...then they fit.


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## THREEJAYS

You can not get around an organized meeting of the Saints if you are going to follow the outline provided in scripture.You can like most any other topic justify it to the point that you may be able to live with yourself. A question I often wonder about is " where would the Church be if all Christains thought and acted as I do".Without a  regular meeting and giving by the body ,yea you might meet the small need of a person from time to time but you won't be able to truly provide for a large need.God knows best and there is a reason he wanted us meeting together.As much as I enjoy the computer it and watching TV does not even start to feel the need I have for being obedient and meeting on the first day of the week for breaking bread and devoting myself to the teaching from scripture. Life is tooo short ,if you've been hurt look some where else but remember the Church body is completly made up of people with the same needs and problems as you.


----------



## Randy

After reading all this I now realize it is not the Church that I have a problem with but the body and sometimes the head of the church.  I guess that is another reason I like to watch Joyce every night.  I am kind of like I am part of that body there with her yet I know none of them.  I assume they all want to be there for the message since they went out of their way to go.  So I assume they are there for the right reasons.


----------



## centerpin fan

Randy said:


> After reading all this I now realize it is not the Church that I have a problem with but the body and sometimes the head of the church.



The body is filled with imperfect, sinful people.  They're bound to disappoint.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> There isn't a Webster's Bible Dictionary.  So there isn't a prescribed number of times per week that = "consistent".  Here is what I offered earlier.  It's as often as is necessary.  Personally one hour per week is not enough.  I don't know how one would maintain doing that or even less.



HF, here is the problem, in my experience, the organization is counter productive to the development of meaningful relationships.  I gave the example of a man not knowing a fellow congregant is gowing through a divorce.

It seems that people use the organized church as an excuse to fail to "be the church."  The concept that somebody who goes on Sunday is giving a better effort than a man who passes is frustrating, because often attending on Sunday is an excuse to not "be the body" the rest of the week.

Consider what CP mentioned about the early Church, how they saw themselves as a community.  I have never seen that in any organized body.  There were pot-luck dinners, and hospital visits, but folks were not active in each other's lives beyond what was necessary.  The Sunday morning  attendance meant they were living the good life.

Put this on top of the other stuff, and you might understand why my analysis leads me to believe that the practice of attendance is not what is the most important aspect of our spiritual walk.


----------



## JB0704

THREEJAYS said:


> Without a  regular meeting and giving by the body ,yea you might meet the small need of a person from time to time but you won't be able to truly provide for a large need.God knows best and there is a reason he wanted us meeting together.As much as I enjoy the computer it and watching TV does not even start to feel the need I have for being obedient and meeting on the first day of the week for breaking bread and devoting myself to the teaching from scripture. Life is tooo short ,if you've been hurt look some where else but remember the Church body is completly made up of people with the same needs and problems as you.



Small needs are large to those who have them.  I am not trying to argue against giving to a Church, but direct giving allows 100% to go to the need, as opposed to a portion going to administrative overhead.

I also understand the value of meeting with others.  But I am asking if the Bible says it should be the way it is (see previous definition of modern church structure), or if it is that way because of how we made it?  If we see more value, spiritually, in not being part of the organization, is it the right thing to do to not be part of the organization?  Thats all, just wondering what the mandates are.

I appreciate the input, there have been a lot of great responses so far.


----------



## JB0704

JB0704 said:


> Then let's get on the same page, what is your definition of modern church structure?



HF, did you ever answer this?


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> ... the practice of attendance is not what is the most important aspect of our spiritual walk.



I don't often quote Woody Allen, but I'll do it here:

"Eighty percent of success is showing up."

I think you can make a similar comment regarding church.  A lot of the time, I don't feel like going to church.  But I know I will be missed.  (And I don't mean they will miss my check going into the collection plate.)  They will miss _me_.

I think we underestimate how much we can serve and encourage others just by "being there".


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> I don't often quote Woody Allen, but I'll do it here:
> 
> "Eighty percent of success is showing up."
> 
> I think you can make a similar comment regarding church.  A lot of the time, I don't feel like going to church.  But I know I will be missed.  (And I don't mean they will miss my check going into the collection plate.)  They will miss _me_.
> 
> I think we underestimate how much we can serve and encourage others just by "being there".



If you went to a "mega-church" you would not feel that way.  Again, most contemporary churches are starting to model themselves after these large, cold, impersonal organizations.

I know there are some traditional churches which are good, and I have visited a few good ones.  But I keep coming back to wondering if I am there because I have to be, or if I am there because I want to be?

I need the first question answered first before I can address the second.....


----------



## Huntinfool

Not "organization" in terms of "THE organization".  Organization in terms of regularly setting time aside to meet.



> because often attending on Sunday is an excuse to not "be the body" the rest of the week.



I agree with you on this.  But, you have to be honest and admit that most of those who reject the church do so for the same exact reason.  There are exceptions on both sides of that coin.  Most people point out hypocrisy in the church....so that they can feel better about not going.



> There were pot-luck dinners, and hospital visits, but folks were not active in each other's lives beyond what was necessary.



Like I said, you need to look some more.  What you've experienced is only a glimpse of some churches.  I know that's all you have to go off of.  I would encourage you to look deeper in your community.  Good ones that function as many of us have described are there.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Then let's get on the same page, what is your definition of modern church structure?



I think it's just too broad.  "Modern Church" to me means a church modeled on the NT as closely as possible.

I get what you're saying though.  The "First" church mentality.  That is a problem.  There are too many "Christians" in churches and not enough followers of Christ.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Again, most contemporary churches are starting to model themselves after these large, cold, impersonal organizations.



WAY too broad of a generalization.  Just patently untrue.  Many?  Possibly.  Most?  Not true.




> But I keep coming back to wondering if I am there because I have to be, or if I am there because I want to be?



I would say that if you're wondering, then you're there because you feel like you have to be.


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> If you went to a "mega-church" you would not feel that way.  Again, most contemporary churches are starting to model themselves after these large, cold, impersonal organizations.



I was a member of a large church.  I don't know if it would qualify as "mega" but it was pretty big.  We had small groups, and we would generally sit together, so people noticed if I was not there.

It's easy to disappear in a big church, but the ones I know of go out of there way to plug people into small groups so that doesn't happen.




JB0704 said:


> But I keep coming back to wondering if I am there because I have to be, or if I am there because I want to be?



There is another option:  do you _need_ to be there.  I know I do.

As for wants, much of the Christian life is saying "no" to our wants.  If I only did what I wanted to do , I'd be in sorry shape -- mentally, phyically, and spiritually.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

In my ESV, the word 'church' is used 113 times in various contexts in the New Testament. This word church simply means 'those called out of', this being from the original Greek word (ekklesia). In my view, if you are 'called out' of something, let's call it the Kingdom of darkness or perhaps the world systems, you become part of the Kingdom of God thru faith in Christ, then you must become new and be in submission to the workings of the Kingdom of God, through identification with others of like mind. A group of believers 'called out' of the world then, becomes the church, if in fact they have been reborn into faith in Christ Jesus.  

Matthew 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden.

While I understand folks being 'burned' by badly organized churches or rigid doctrinal beliefs or hypocritical stances, it remains in my view that by separating yourself from the Body of Christ, you separate yourself from the 'City on the Hill' and from being that 'Light of the World'.  Since it is impossible to be a 'Body of Christ' without other members of the body and the Head, Christ becomes of no effect to you.  That's just the way it is. You cannot 'deny yourself' and 'hold onto yourself' at the same time! If indeed you were bought with a price (Christ) and accepted His atonement, how can you say you will not accept His body on the earth! Further, you cannot provide the gifts that are purely your own to the Body of Christ, which is your calling, again making your own walk ineffectual.

Running from God's church is not the answer but the problem (one of many). If everyone does as you have done, there will be no 'City', and Christ is not preached.

Now, don't get me wrong. I have also made that mistake in the past, having been badly burned by two such ministries in the past. Yet I know that the church (The Body of Christ) is God's plan to make disciples of all nations andI cannot separate myself from His work! Oh yes, I have that choice, but if I make that choice I separate myself from the community that helps to guard my heart and seeks to make me accountable before God on a daily
basis. Left to myself, I would fail as a follower of Christ. It really is that simple and it is God's will for you to give yourself to His body, the church!

Besides, if the organized church is really that bad and you recognize this, then it is your responsibilty before God to make it better! We should not run from our responsibility!

Matthew 7:21-23
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' 23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

This scripture is giving everyone of us a glimpse into the judgment day before it occurs. Lets be sure in every way possible that 'Jesus knows you' and you will not hear the words, 'I never knew you!'  Be called out, be different, hear and do the will of the Father!

God Bless!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I agree with you on this.  But, you have to be honest and admit that most of those who reject the church do so for the same exact reason.  There are exceptions on both sides of that coin.  Most people point out hypocrisy in the church....so that they can feel better about not going.



You have a point, but I can only speak for my experience.  

But let's get back to the original intent of the post, what is the mandate?  Can it be accomplished outside organization?  I say yes, and often we should.  That is not to say folks shouldn't go to Church if they enjoy it, or if they feel edified by the experience.  My only contention is that the traditional church experience is not the only way to accomplish Church.

Am I wrong? (and I sincerely want everybody's opinion, I won't get offended)


----------



## mtnwoman

Randy said:


> I go into my bedroom and turn on Joyce Meyer.  She is my pastor and Iam there with those thousands in attendance.  And yes I even believe the Bible is clear that women should not be pastors, but she is good and knows the Bible more than any man I have ever known.



Well she has a pastor, so she's under the headship of a man, so she's covered, anyway.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Am I wrong? (and I sincerely want everybody's opinion, I won't get offended)



Is it the only way?  No.  But my opinion is that it's the best way.

Can it be accomplished outside of "organization"?  If you're asking outside of organized effort?  No...it can't.  If you're asking outside the "church" as an organization, sure.  Absolutely.  But organization is part of it.  I don't know how you get around that, or would want to for that matter.


----------



## JB0704

F1, I was hoping you would weigh in, and I appreciate your thoughts.



formula1 said:


> While I understand folks being 'burned' by badly organized churches or rigid doctrinal beliefs or hypocritical stances, it remains in my view that by separating yourself from the Body of Christ, you separate yourself from the 'City on the Hill' and from being that 'Light of the World'.  Since it is impossible to be a 'Body of Christ' without other members of the body and the Head, Christ becomes of no effect to you.  That's just the way it is. You cannot 'deny yourself' and 'hold onto yourself' at the same time! If indeed you were bought with a price (Christ) and accepted His atonement, how can you say you will not accept His body on the earth! Further, you cannot provide the gifts that are purely your own to the Body of Christ, which is your calling, again making your own walk ineffectual.



I follow what you are saying here, but am still wondering how organized we have to be to be the city on the hill?  I am part of a group of believers, we just are not a "church."  We do what we can for the community and each other, and we hold each other accountable.  It just lacks the organization of the modern church.



formula1 said:


> Running from God's church is not the answer but the problem (one of many). If everyone does as you have done, there will be no 'City', and Christ is not preached.



Am I running or taking a stand?  I understand how ridiculous that sounds, but during the last several years since I left I have had more construcive activity, spiritually, than I ever did by being a part of a local organization. 



formula1 said:


> Oh yes, I have that choice, but if I make that choice I separate myself from the community that helps to guard my heart and seeks to make me accountable before God on a daily
> basis. Left to myself, I would fail as a follower of Christ. It really is that simple and it is God's will for you to give yourself to His body, the church!!



I do recognize the need for accountability.  I have that in my life.  As far as giving to the body, I am not certain I have ceased that, just left the organized part of it.  This is where I am lost, because I struggle to see the difference.  



formula1 said:


> Besides, if the organized church is really that bad and you recognize this, then it is your responsibilty before God to make it better! We should not run from our responsibility!



You do have a point here, and I tried.  What I found is that people don't want to listen.  If they are entertained to an acceptable level on Sunday, then the nuts and bolts of the Church don't matter.  I have seen a lot of folks over look some awful things becaue they "like the music."  And those who point out blatant garbage are "harming the cause of unity."  And those who harm the cause of unity are not welcome.  Even if it something as simple as saying, very discreetly to the pastor "maybe we shouldn't spend millions of dollars on a water fountaint when we have folks getting their lights turned off and the benevolence fund is empty."  That is considered going against the "head pastor's vision."  So, we have to look for another vision to follow.

People often refer to their "church home."  To me, home is where you are always loved, and always welcome.


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Can it be accomplished outside organization? ... My only contention is that the traditional church experience is not the only way to accomplish Church.
> 
> Am I wrong?



IMO ... yes.

I agree with St. Ilarion:


_Outside the Church and without the Church, Christian life is impossible. Without the Church, the Christian teaching alone remains as an empty sound, for Christian life is Church life. Only in the life of the Church can a person live and develop. In a bodily organism, separate members never grow or develop independently of one another, but always and only in connection with the whole organism. The same applies to the Church. For the growth of the Church is at the same time the growth of its members._


This was taken from an article of his called "Christianity or the Church".  In it, he quotes St. Cyprian:


_"He who does not have the Church as his mother cannot have God as his Father." _


----------



## JB0704

I am going hunting for the rest of the afternoon!  I will follow up on y'alls comments tonight or tomorrow.

Thanks everybody, this is an enlightening thread so far!


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## mtnwoman

I go sometimes to my daughters and son in laws church, Calvary Baptist Church, it's a huge church and they offer anything you could want to do. I wouldn't call it a mega church, but close. And that's a good thing about a mega church, is nobody knows me....yippeeee. I sit up front so I can pay attention and not get distracted by anything.
We have a praise and worship group, awesome and a full orchestra, also awesome. Our pastor is Gary Chapman, and I think he might be a little well known from his books.

Online, I usually listen to my home church's praise and worship and sermon, because I like our pastor who is an awesome bible teacher and he's one of those people, that you don't mind staying unil 12:30 to finish listening, cause usually we're gonna.

So that's my church life, pretty much, right now.

I need teaching, I'm hungry for the word and I seek the word and God's truth. So if I hear something I'm not sure of, then I'm off on a mission of searching which keeps me in the word and off the streets..lol.


If you are convicted to be in church, even though you may not know why or figure out a good reason why you should go, if you're convicted to go, then you should go. God will lead you to a church that  will hold your attention and give you what God knows you need....ask Him and ye shall receive. God will provide us with what He knows we need, because usually we don't even know what we need. The HS will intercede for us with groanings too deep for words when we don't even know what to ask for.

When 2 or more are gathered together in My name, there I (Jesus) am among you.


None of us really have a good excuse not to go to church.
But I don't think there is anything in the Bible that says we have to. I guess it depends on your relationship with God and what you think He wants you to do.

I don't think I have enough word in me to stay on an even keel (sp?)  I feel like I go to drink and get full because I need to, sometimes I feel like....sheesh you use to spend the weekend in a club or bar, you could at least make it to church for an hour....but that's just me. We all have different convictions. We all don't need the same things. 

Ramblin' Rose


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## NCHillbilly

The woods, the mountains, the rivers and lakes are my church.


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## Huntinfool

They may be places where you worship God.


----------



## formula1

JB:

How organized?  Organized enough to be making disciples and growing the church as Jesus asked of you.  Also, organized enough that no one in their group is a island unto themselves.  Also, sound enough doctrine to rightly divide the Word of Truth, not making light of the Scriptures that lead and interpreting such to fit each individual lifestyle.  And also organized enough where your are fully serving and fully helping others to follow Christ. And most of all where Love for God and your fellow man precludes any self interest.

Consider this:  I don't like the organization, it offends me, so I'll go and create an organization that I like.  Not much different that a church split, IMHO. When we  no longer care that we are offended, the Power of Christ will begin to really work!

I work in the IT world.  Try writing data to a heavily fragmented hard disk.  It's very difficult, but when you run the defrag utility, it hums along just fine.

Likewise, you may consider your method as taking a stand if you like, I consider it running, the end result of which is a fragmented Body of Christ and an ineffectual witness.

You asked!  Please don't be offended.  As I told you before, I have more grace for you than you might see in these words.  But I'm not going to hide what I believe is truth! God Bless!


----------



## THREEJAYS

centerpin fan said:


> I don't often quote Woody Allen, but I'll do it here:
> 
> "Eighty percent of success is showing up."
> 
> I think you can make a similar comment regarding church.  A lot of the time, I don't feel like going to church.  But I know I will be missed.  (And I don't mean they will miss my check going into the collection plate.)  They will miss _me_.
> 
> I think we underestimate how much we can serve and encourage others just by "being there".



Absolutely a big AMEN



centerpin fan said:


> IMO ... yes.
> 
> I agree with St. Ilarion:
> 
> 
> _Outside the Church and without the Church, Christian life is impossible. Without the Church, the Christian teaching alone remains as an empty sound, for Christian life is Church life. Only in the life of the Church can a person live and develop. In a bodily organism, separate members never grow or develop independently of one another, but always and only in connection with the whole organism. The same applies to the Church. For the growth of the Church is at the same time the growth of its members._
> 
> 
> This was taken from an article of his called "Christianity or the Church".  In it, he quotes St. Cyprian:
> 
> 
> _"He who does not have the Church as his mother cannot have God as his Father." _



X2


----------



## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> But I keep coming back to wondering if I am there because I have to be, or if I am there because I want to be?
> 
> I need the first question answered first before I can address the second.....



I guess I could be way off here, but I see that as one of the most legalistic, misguided statements I have ever read.  Sounds like you are looking to your intellectual understanding for guidance of your spiritual understanding.  I know it's just my opinion, but I think that's a formula for disaster.


----------



## polkhunt

I did not read all these posts but I want to respond to some of them. I like Joyce Meyer as well and I do not belive she has ever referred to herself as a pastor unless I have missed it she is not a pastor she is a preacher or minister which is a huge difference. The other thing is that the you don't go to church the church goes to worship. I think the purpose of a local church is to gather worship God and be euipped to share to gospel with the rest of the world and that includes serving your community whenever and whereever you can. There are other churches that meet on Saturday other than SDA and they are probably correct in doing so the Sabbath has never changed but then again does God really care when you worhsip.


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## dewclaw

I think that through prayer and reading scripture that God will talk to you through your consciense. He already has because you are asking this question. I can not tell you what is right because I am going through the same thing right now and I believe that you have a excellent question. I think the answer is to fing the right church that has God's will placed at the priority of the church and Christ as the Head.


----------



## mtnwoman

Joyce refers to herself as a teacher.  She cleared up one thing for me, that I'll never forget, that had been a heavy burden on me.

she said...Temptation will never die, we have to die to temptation.


I couldn't understand if I was really saved why I would keep getting tempted.  That was shortly after my rededication and I was really fighting off demons....but that one sentence made me look at things in a whole new glory hallelujah kinda way.


----------



## mtnwoman

Everyone  needs to go to a church where they want to go to. Don't go as a duty, you aren't getting anything out of it.
All you'll do is sit and think about what you're gonna do when you get out of church and either sit there and squirm or nod off.

All churches are not suited to all of us. I love praise and worship, maybe 3 songs and a solo and then let the bible study begin. If the preacher is boring or teaches the same heckfire and brimstone thing every week, then that's not for me. I need some learnin', some word, something to ponder, something to make a light bulb come on. There are churchs that will do that for each of us out there and it won't be the same church.

Please do not go to church because you feel like you have to. If you find a good church that fits your personality and we all have one, then you won't be able to wait to get there.

God does want us to fellowship.  Sometimes it doesn't always work that way for us.


----------



## JB0704

mtnwoman said:


> Everyone  needs to go to a church where they want to go to. Don't go as a duty, you aren't getting anything out of it.



Then I am correct not to go?  Right now, the idea of going to church makes me very uneasy.



mtnwoman said:


> All churches are not suited to all of us.



I agree, and believe this is why we have so many.


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> I guess I could be way off here, but I see that as one of the most legalistic, misguided statements I have ever read.



I have no idea what you are talking about.  Legalistic?  Not me.

Since we are being blunt, I don't want to go to Church.  But, I am asking whether or not I have to.  If I have to, I will.  But not because I want to.  

That is just doing the right thing, HP.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> I don't like the organization, it offends me, so I'll go and create an organization that I like.  Not much different that a church split, IMHO. When we  no longer care that we are offended, the Power of Christ will begin to really work!



I see your point, but also think Church splits are not always bad. Where good men exist, people will try to do the right thing.  Sometimes, this is opposed.......what then?  We can't always change everybody's mind. Then folks get stuck wandering around again, looking for a new "home."

And, when we quit caring about being offended, sometimes, bad things happen to good people in the name of "unity."  I have seen it. 



formula1 said:


> Likewise, you may consider your method as taking a stand if you like, I consider it running, the end result of which is a fragmented Body of Christ and an ineffectual witness.



I appreciate your sincerity, but think you may lack enough information bout me to make such an assessment. If you are speaking generally, then I follow.



formula1 said:


> You asked!  Please don't be offended.



I am not at all offended.  I knew this was going to be a tricky thread.


----------



## JB0704

dewclaw said:


> I think that through prayer and reading scripture that God will talk to you through your consciense. He already has because you are asking this question. I can not tell you what is right because I am going through the same thing right now and I believe that you have a excellent question. I think the answer is to fing the right church that has God's will placed at the priority of the church and Christ as the Head.



I appreciate your comments DC.  I follow you in reference to finding the right church, but I am still wondering if there is a clear biblical case for compulsory attendance of an "organized" body.


----------



## G5BONECRUSHER

JB, I know I'm jumping in late in this discussion but your questions and the responses compelled me to read the entire thread. Good discussion from everyone... 

I was raised in church all my life Southern Baptist, My father was a deacon of the church for 15 yrs. Growing up I saw church splits, hurt feelings, gossip, all the things we people do. I did drift away from my attendance of church during my college yrs. Prior to getting married my wife and I decided to find a church home. We attended that church for 10 yrs being very involved, then it happened.... My family was hurt by actions that were directed toward us, I will not get in to those details but I will say the whole ordeal hurt my wife and I more than anything we have ever experienced. We finally chose to look for a new church home and found a church where we are truly happy but it has been hard letting down our defenses and truly becoming a part of this new body of believers.

 I have struggled with if "Church" was really worth it after seeing the things that I have seen happen within the Churches I have attended.

To respond to the OP. IMO there is no biblical mandate. The closest thing is in Hebrews 10:25 but I believe to construe that to be a biblical mandate would be error and out of context. 

I have to say that I don't think the Early New Testament Church would recognize the Modern Day Christian Church. Most churches in this day were (small groups) house churches and were made up of people who were walking through this life together. They didn't live twenty miles across town from one another typically they lived nearby one another, possibly worked together, their paths crossed on a regular basis.

 The church was for( Eph 4: 11-32) stirring one another up in love and good works, helping each other, sharing their provision, equipping the saints for ministry, building the body up in love, speaking the truth in love, and forgiving one another. To also worship and praise God. But the primary function is to love and support one another.

I do believe the bible is clear that we need to be part of an organized body of believers that doesn't forsake gathering together.  

My biggest frustration is that we as a body of believers do a pretty terrible job IMO. Of doing what the fundamental purpose of the church is...

LOVING GOD AND LOVING PEOPLE. 

We spend way to much time and money IMO focused on the building and business of "church" The current business model of the Church is not something modeled after the new testament church. I feel that it's wasteful. What if we spent those millions on feeding some children, or building homes for the homeless, or an outreach center for children, helping church members who have fallen on hard financial times?  When was the last time you saw a church pay for a members mortgage and light bill because they lost their job?


 The activities of the church can be done anywhere and quite possibly could be done more effectively in small group settings rather than large congregational meetings. I believe this is the basic premise behind some Sunday school  and small group bible studies.  

I also don't see any evidence of weekly meetings where believers listened to a sermon in the NT. Not saying it never happened or that its not useful but I don't see clear instruction on this in the NT.  

Pastors  of the early church were called to be shepherds of the flock, not preach sermons every Sunday morning. 

Jesus is the Temple

Jesus said  John 2:19 “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Jesus was clearly talking about himself here and not a building.

Jesus said  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. 

Jesus is the head of the Church 

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church. 

With all that said I want to say that I am today part of a loving SBC church that is growing and truly trying to model a real, genuine, love that is an extension of Christ's love for us, and the biblical relationships, fellowship, and accountability that the early church had. It is truly a challenge in today's society. 

Most of us barely have time for our own families after work maybe a little time for ourselves. But making time to meet the needs of others is actually very tough because we first have to take the time to get to know them so we can understand their needs.

 So we rush in on Sunday say "GREAT!!" when people ask how were doing, knowing that is a lie because its been a terrible week. 

What if church was an environment where you respond "Man its been a rough week, money is the tightest its ever been, the wife and I are fighting about it, the kids got in trouble at school man I'm struggling with some temptations right now and I need a friend to give me some support.".......and the response was."  I've been there before brother, how can I help? 

I'm not saying this doesn't happen because I know it does. I have had church members who have been there for me many times. But that is the exception and definitely not the perception.

The writer of Hebrew's words in context are clearly to me not a mandate but as wise direction to help me maintain a healthy relationship with Christ, to help others do the same, so I have someone around to give me a hand if I fall, so I can get encouragement after feeling beaten down by the struggles of life.... and, I have now come to a realization that it also gives me the opportunity to forgive others when they have hurt me. Being part of a loving body of believers helps me to  live a more abundant life, and hopefully a life that is more pleasing to him.

For those that have Children or Have Parent's I would like to pose this question. 

Can you think of a more Joyous occasion for a Father than to spend time with His children and their children gathered together in fellowship?

I'm sorry this was so long but I am frustrated because their are so many people out there who feel the way you do JB and I am convicted that I and the church as a whole are so busy with the business of life that we are failing to meet the needs of fellow believers.


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## StriperAddict

G5, very well said.  Sadly, my wife and I have been down the road you're talking about for several years and in different local assemblies with similar histories and results. It has been an uphill climb for quite some time. But in the last 2 and a half years we've come to a point where our service is within a Recovery Ministry, and not necessarily within a local church at this time. 
What we've found is some like-mindedness in the cause of helping the hurting who are in crisis or addictions, as we have benefited from the ministry over our hurts and hang ups as well. As our hearts beat close together with others having the same zeal to serve the hurting, there is wonderful unity and fellowship, devoid of all the Christianese platitudes that are often said to prevent intimacy in the body.  The "unreal"-ness of some is our primary dislike of what I would call an "organized church meeting".  We can only grow in our union with God so long as we are painfully honest with Him, likewise when believers are in a safe environment to talk out their joys and hurts, we grow strong in fellowship together and are prepared by empathy with one another to drop our guard to then help others in need, with the gifts God gives.  
It's easy to talk about the style of preaching we like, or music style, or what's new on the church calendar, none of those things wrong.  I only hope people focus on getting real rich fellowship found where God plants you, whether a local body or a mission team/group, and where your gifts blossom to the glory of God.  There, you'll realize you are well planted, watered, growing and serving.

I'll share more soon.  Thanks again for the points made, G5.

~Walter


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about.  Legalistic?  Not me.
> 
> Since we are being blunt, I don't want to go to Church.  But, I am asking whether or not I have to.  If I have to, I will.  But not because I want to.
> 
> That is just doing the right thing, HP.



Thank you for understanding that I was being intentionally blunt.

Legalistic ... You must determine if there is a legal requirement first, then (by the statement I was responding to) you can determine if you want to.

More of my opinion ... By your statement here, it sounds like you think you "should" (I hate that word) and, perhaps, are hoping this discussion will provide some justification for ignoring what is probably the Spirit encouraging you to get something done about a step forward in your spiritual maturity that doesn't fit in the intellectural framework you have built.  The scriptural paradigm is "live by the spirit".  I would suggest that a spiritual investigation will produce more fruit than a legal investigation.

Doesn't sound humble does it?... I am fully aware that I don't know your heart.


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## THREEJAYS

Church bodies can come in many forms.I still and probably will always believe that God intended for his children to meet together regular.From when Peter preached the first sermon to John receiving the revelation about the seven Churches I see a body that would have had to be meeting together.The regular meeting is needed because left to ourselves most are to weak to truly build a close relationship with our Lord.It's all through the NT to do the things taught in scripture concerning the Church it would require a body that is connected.One last thought,it's been mentioned about the small home based Churchs in the early days ,well to me they would have been small because it was new not because that was the way it was supposed to be forever.


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## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> Then I am correct not to go?  Right now, the idea of going to church makes me very uneasy.



Well, I don't know if you're correct or not. Perhaps God is trying to lead you somewhere else or to do something else like striper, and sometimes when He wants us to do something He'll make us feel uneasy. And when I feel that way, I keep asking 'What God? What is it? Show me.'

I do believe that God wants us in fellowship, whether we are leaders of a group or supporters of a group or just part of the group.

Could be teaching sunday school at a nursing home, or girls/boys correctional center. I have a great witness for girls to young womens groups, of what NOT to do, or get trapped in. But sometimes I feel a need to be feed. That's where the conviction of the Holy Spirit comes in.

God does want us to do something, sometimes we just gotta figure out or listen or pay attention.

Go visit the sick in nursing homes, you'd be surprised how many folks are just left there alone.

I'm just saying maybe God is making you feel uneasy for a reason and then it could be satan tryin' to trip and trick you up. 

I hope God blesses you with an answer soon.


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## Huntinfool

> I also don't see any evidence of weekly meetings where believers listened to a sermon in the NT. Not saying it never happened or that its not useful but I don't see clear instruction on this in the NT.



The apostles did teach regularly.  Was it weekly?  Well, we don't know.  Likely it was daily.  But this got me thinking...why DO we meet on Sunday?  Why once a week (and for many of us it's more often than that)? Why not Saturday?

Interestingly enough, I was reading through a new book we bought for our kids this morning.  The purpose of the book is to teach them the Shorter Catechism (the kids version) and I remembered reading this part of it.




> Q. 86. What is the fourth commandment?
> A. The fourth commandment is, Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God; in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.




Why do we meet once a week?  Because the Fourth Commandment tells us to keep one day a week holy, to not work.  He hallowed that day.



> Q. 87. What does the fourth commandment teach us?
> A. To keep the Sabbath holy.



Self-explanatory



> Q. 88. What day of the week is the Christian Sabbath?
> A. The first day of the week, called the Lord's day.



OK, it's "the Lord's day".  By why would we change it from Saturday to Sunday?  Keep reading...



> Q. 89. Why is it called the Lord's day?
> A. Because on that day Christ rose from the dead.



Jews keep the sabbath on Saturday because they don't believe in the resurrection of Christ.  It remains Saturday.  Christians celebrate Jesus' resurrection on a Sunday....so we celebrate the Lord's Day as our Sabbath.




> Q. 90. How should the Sabbath be spent?
> A. In prayer and praise, in hearing and reading God's Word, and in doing good to our fellow men.



Because we celebrate his resurrection on Sunday, we gather together as a body in that celebration to enjoy corporate worship of God and so that we don't neglect gathering together.


I don't have the scripture references for each of these yet.  Still looking into it.  But, I will say that I don't need them.  I will find them for those that do.  I agree with everything in these questions and answers.  They line up with my understanding of scripture and I will teach them to my children.

I suppose this is why we gather once a week.  I say it's biblical.


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## Randy

Huntinfool said:


> The apostles did teach regularly.  Was it weekly?  Well, we don't know.  Likely it was daily.  But this got me thinking...why DO we meet on Sunday?  Why once a week (and for many of us it's more often than that)? Why not Saturday?
> 
> Interestingly enough, I was reading through a new book we bought for our kids this morning.  The purpose of the book is to teach them the Shorter Catechism (the kids version) and I remembered reading this part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Why do we meet once a week?  Because the Fourth Commandment tells us to keep one day a week holy, to not work.  He hallowed that day.
> 
> 
> 
> Self-explanatory
> 
> 
> 
> OK, it's "the Lord's day".  By why would we change it from Saturday to Sunday?  Keep reading...
> 
> 
> 
> Jews keep the sabbath on Saturday because they don't believe in the resurrection of Christ.  It remains Saturday.  Christians celebrate Jesus' resurrection on a Sunday....so we celebrate the Lord's Day as our Sabbath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Because we celebrate his resurrection on Sunday, we gather together as a body in that celebration to enjoy corporate worship of God and so that we don't neglect gathering together.
> 
> 
> I don't have the scripture references for each of these yet.  Still looking into it.  But, I will say that I don't need them.  I will find them for those that do.  I agree with everything in these questions and answers.  They line up with my understanding of scripture and I will teach them to my children.
> 
> I suppose this is why we gather once a week.  I say it's biblical.



ahhh, so the Christians decided the Bible was not good enough for them so they would choose a different day to keep the sabbath rather than the day God said to hold holy.  Do some studying on when and why.  The reason of Jesus' reserection was an excuse.  The real reason was the Puritian Christians fleeing the Church in Europe and coming to America did not want to follow the Church's requirements for Saturday as the Holy Day.  It was a revolt in a way.  It started in the 1600's.  Until then, Saturday was the sabbath.  But hey, what is a little bending of the Bible scripture between christians?


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## Huntinfool

> ahhh, so the Christians decided the Bible was not good enough for them so they would choose a different day to keep the sabbath rather than the day God said to hold holy.




Here is the full Shorter with scripture referrences.

Q59:Which day of the seven hath God appointed to be the weekly Sabbath?

_A:From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath;1 and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian Sabbath.2
1.And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (Genesis 2:3, KJV).
2.And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them. (Acts 20:7a, KJV).
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. (Revelation 1:10a, KJV)._



> Until then, Saturday was the sabbath. But hey, what is a little bending of the Bible scripture between christians?



So Randy, so as to justify your apparent anger....I suppose you keep Saturday holy at this point in your walk?

My only point was to explain why we gather on Sundays and why most churches have their main gathering once a week.  You don't have to agree with it.  It is not twisting scripture as I read it.


----------



## Randy

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> JB, I know I'm jumping in late in this discussion but your questions and the responses compelled me to read the entire thread. Good discussion from everyone...
> 
> I was raised in church all my life Southern Baptist, My father was a deacon of the church for 15 yrs. Growing up I saw church splits, hurt feelings, gossip, all the things we people do. I did drift away from my attendance of church during my college yrs. Prior to getting married my wife and I decided to find a church home. We attended that church for 10 yrs being very involved, then it happened.... My family was hurt by actions that were directed toward us, I will not get in to those details but I will say the whole ordeal hurt my wife and I more than anything we have ever experienced. We finally chose to look for a new church home and found a church where we are truly happy but it has been hard letting down our defenses and truly becoming a part of this new body of believers.
> 
> I have struggled with if "Church" was really worth it after seeing the things that I have seen happen within the Churches I have attended.
> 
> To respond to the OP. IMO there is no biblical mandate. The closest thing is in Hebrews 10:25 but I believe to construe that to be a biblical mandate would be error and out of context.
> 
> I have to say that I don't think the Early New Testament Church would recognize the Modern Day Christian Church. Most churches in this day were (small groups) house churches and were made up of people who were walking through this life together. They didn't live twenty miles across town from one another typically they lived nearby one another, possibly worked together, their paths crossed on a regular basis.
> 
> The church was for( Eph 4: 11-32) stirring one another up in love and good works, helping each other, sharing their provision, equipping the saints for ministry, building the body up in love, speaking the truth in love, and forgiving one another. To also worship and praise God. But the primary function is to love and support one another.
> 
> I do believe the bible is clear that we need to be part of an organized body of believers that doesn't forsake gathering together.
> 
> My biggest frustration is that we as a body of believers do a pretty terrible job IMO. Of doing what the fundamental purpose of the church is...
> 
> LOVING GOD AND LOVING PEOPLE.
> 
> We spend way to much time and money IMO focused on the building and business of "church" The current business model of the Church is not something modeled after the new testament church. I feel that it's wasteful. What if we spent those millions on feeding some children, or building homes for the homeless, or an outreach center for children, helping church members who have fallen on hard financial times?  When was the last time you saw a church pay for a members mortgage and light bill because they lost their job?
> 
> 
> The activities of the church can be done anywhere and quite possibly could be done more effectively in small group settings rather than large congregational meetings. I believe this is the basic premise behind some Sunday school  and small group bible studies.
> 
> I also don't see any evidence of weekly meetings where believers listened to a sermon in the NT. Not saying it never happened or that its not useful but I don't see clear instruction on this in the NT.
> 
> Pastors  of the early church were called to be shepherds of the flock, not preach sermons every Sunday morning.
> 
> Jesus is the Temple
> 
> Jesus said  John 2:19 “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Jesus was clearly talking about himself here and not a building.
> 
> Jesus said  Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
> 
> Jesus is the head of the Church
> 
> Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church.
> 
> With all that said I want to say that I am today part of a loving SBC church that is growing and truly trying to model a real, genuine, love that is an extension of Christ's love for us, and the biblical relationships, fellowship, and accountability that the early church had. It is truly a challenge in today's society.
> 
> Most of us barely have time for our own families after work maybe a little time for ourselves. But making time to meet the needs of others is actually very tough because we first have to take the time to get to know them so we can understand their needs.
> 
> So we rush in on Sunday say "GREAT!!" when people ask how were doing, knowing that is a lie because its been a terrible week.
> 
> What if church was an environment where you respond "Man its been a rough week, money is the tightest its ever been, the wife and I are fighting about it, the kids got in trouble at school man I'm struggling with some temptations right now and I need a friend to give me some support.".......and the response was."  I've been there before brother, how can I help?
> 
> I'm not saying this doesn't happen because I know it does. I have had church members who have been there for me many times. But that is the exception and definitely not the perception.
> 
> The writer of Hebrew's words in context are clearly to me not a mandate but as wise direction to help me maintain a healthy relationship with Christ, to help others do the same, so I have someone around to give me a hand if I fall, so I can get encouragement after feeling beaten down by the struggles of life.... and, I have now come to a realization that it also gives me the opportunity to forgive others when they have hurt me. Being part of a loving body of believers helps me to  live a more abundant life, and hopefully a life that is more pleasing to him.
> 
> For those that have Children or Have Parent's I would like to pose this question.
> 
> Can you think of a more Joyous occasion for a Father than to spend time with His children and their children gathered together in fellowship?
> 
> I'm sorry this was so long but I am frustrated because their are so many people out there who feel the way you do JB and I am convicted that I and the church as a whole are so busy with the business of life that we are failing to meet the needs of fellow believers.



The best and most Christian post in this thread.


----------



## centerpin fan

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> I also don't see any evidence of weekly meetings where believers listened to a sermon in the NT. Not saying it never happened or that its not useful but I don't see clear instruction on this in the NT.



Some things are not spelled out specifically in the NT (how church services were done, for example.)  By looking at the early Christian writings, you can get a very good idea of what the church believed and taught.  Here's chapter 14 of _The Didache_ (emphasis mine):

_*Christian Assembly on the Lord's Day.* But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one who is at odds with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: "In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations." _

_The Didache_ was written very close to NT times.  It's generally dated in the 100-120 range.  See also my previous quote from St. Justin Martyr (post #8.)  He wrote in the mid-2nd century.


----------



## Randy

Huntinfool said:


> Excellent Randy....great job.
> 
> Here is the full Shorter with scripture referrences.
> 
> Q59:Which day of the seven hath God appointed to be the weekly Sabbath?
> 
> _A:From the beginning of the world to the resurrection of Christ, God appointed the seventh day of the week to be the weekly Sabbath;1 and the first day of the week ever since, to continue to the end of the world, which is the Christian Sabbath.2
> 1.And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. (Genesis 2:3, KJV).
> 2.And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them. (Acts 20:7a, KJV).
> I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. (Revelation 1:10a, KJV)._
> 
> 
> 
> So Randy, so as to justify your apparent anger....I suppose you keep Saturday holy at this point in your walk?
> 
> My only point was to explain why we gather on Sundays and why most churches have their main gathering once a week.  You don't have to agree with it.  It is not twisting scripture as I read it.


As Sabbath as I keep Sunday, and every day for that matter.  No I don't do as I think God wants us too, nobody does.  At least nobody I know.  We are all weak.  The problem I have with the church is they are supposed to teach what is right and wrong yet they have moved a long way from right.  I guess it is becasue it is just so hard to be right and since we are under Grace, it makes it easier to just do what we want to do.  Thank you Jesus.  Can you imagine trying to tell the congregation it is wrong to go out and eat after church?  Half of them woud quit the church.


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## JB0704

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> JB, I know I'm jumping in late in this discussion but your questions and the responses compelled me to read the entire thread. Good discussion from everyone....



I am responding to the entire comment, but only put the above in quotes so folks would know who I was responding to.

Thank for jumping in G5.  I think, in many ways, you hit the nail on the head from my perspective.  Particularly in the area of the NT church not recognizing the modern church.  Like you, I had some bad experiences with church.  One day, I just said "enough."  I was done.

That being said, I also agree with your thoughts on small groups being more reflective of the early church.  I was in a small group for several years, and have alluded to it in this thread.  We don't meet regularly anymore, but we are all best friends, and we are all there when the others need us.  All of this in addition to encouraging each other and holding each other accountable.

My problem is that I can't get past that position.  I can't rationalize putting myself out there again.  I mentioned a cost benefit analysis.  Currently, the risk outweighs the reward.

I know there are good churchs out there.  I know there are a lot of good Christian folks who do their best to be the "hands and feet."  I am not condemning the faith or the church.  I just think something has gotten lost along the way and we, Christians as a whole, look the other way.


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## Huntinfool

> As Sabbath as I keep Sunday, and every day for that matter.



So you choose to twist scripture with the rest of us...and you don't work....at all on any day?



> The problem I have with the church is they are supposed to teach what is right and wrong yet they have moved a long way from right.



Just like JB's comment...this is WAY too broad a generalization.  I know this is how you feel about church and what, possibly, you've experienced.  But there are plenty of churches in your area that look like this...



> What if church was an environment where you respond "Man its been a rough week, money is the tightest its ever been, the wife and I are fighting about it, the kids got in trouble at school man I'm struggling with some temptations right now and I need a friend to give me some support.".......and the response was." I've been there before brother, how can I help?







> I guess it is becasue it is just so hard to be right and since we are under Grace, it makes it easier to just do what we want to do.



We shall not go on sinning so that grace may abound.  


I get that there are a lot of people who have bad impressions of "church".  My feeling is that most of them have gotten to the point that they are afraid to open up...to anybody...not just a church family.  They are afraid to be exposed and to lean on someone else.  So they go around giving reasons why they aren't part of a body of believers that have absolutely nothing to do with why they aren't part of a body. 

There is at least one church in your area that functions as above.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Currently, the risk outweighs the reward.




So what (and I'm genuinley curious) are the risks in your mind and what are the rewards.

I obviously see it 180 deg opposite of that.  The rewards are very much worth any risk by a large margin.  So I'm curious what it looks like in your mind that would cause "risks" to be so great.


----------



## JB0704

StriperAddict said:


> It's easy to talk about the style of preaching we like, or music style, or what's new on the church calendar, none of those things wrong.  I only hope people focus on getting real rich fellowship found where God plants you, whether a local body or a mission team/group, and where your gifts blossom to the glory of God.  There, you'll realize you are well planted, watered, growing and serving.



Well said, not just what I quoted, but all of it.  I have also found non traditional service opportunities to be rewarding and a great avenue to find involvement with other like minded believers. I involve myself as often as I can, and try to meet needs where I can. Some worked, some didn't.  But it is a great thing that you are helping folks with addictions.

I am amazed at how many folks are feeling the same things.


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## formula1

*Re:*

JB,

This comment bugs me a little(though I don't take offense):

"And, when we quit caring about being offended, sometimes, bad things happen to good people in the name of "unity." I have seen it. "

I don't think you see my point so I'll make it blunt.  If Jesus cared more about offense that servanthood, more about His will than His Father's, where would you and I be?  When they spit in His face, sought to kill Him for His words, I mean, shouldn't He have been offended? Yet, He did not open His mouth on His way to the garden and then to the cross. Is He our example or is He not? 

Matthew 5
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Philippians 2:1-4
1 So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy, 2 complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind. 3 Do nothing from rivalry or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.

And you already know Hebrews 10:24-25.

Mark 8:34
And calling the crowd to him with his disciples, he said to them, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

If the church, full of redeemed sinners bought by the Blood of Christ, is repulsive to you and you separate yourself from it, are you not also separating yourself from Christ? Is that little small group enough to suffice, to get by until the day of the Lord?  Is it that important for you to be comfortable?  Is the what matters to Jesus, that you be happy in your own skin? For the record, ask these to yourself as I don't need a response.

I, like others here, seem to sense you are uneasy with what you have been doing, though often it feels comforatble to you. Here is what I would do, making my best effort to put myself in your shoes:

1) Pray earnestly for God to show you where He wants you to be planted. 
2) Let Him know you are willing to lay down your will for His.
3) Attend some churches. There is no requirement to commit. It's a long way, but you can come to mine, just like you are, skeptic and all.  That's an open invite. 
4) Find the place where God's voice is clear in you, where He wants you planted.  If you find something you might like, dig deeper, get to know others, build relationships in Christ. See if the spirit of the people and the leadership bears witness to your spirit and God's Spirit in you.
5) Serve others with a full heart of love and bring others to faith in Jesus Christ.

Here's a little of my own story for you.  When I made a commitment to the church I now attend (2.5 yrs ago), I had been attending for 6 years. And before that, out of church for 8 years because of being hurt by the leadership of 2 previous churches. I was very slow to commit.  Yet, what I know now is that God intended for this thing to work and it does work in many of our churches.  Your own relationship with God grows exponentially more as you relate to the people of God than rather than outside of the Body of Christ.  It just does!  I can't explain it, I just know it. As big as my hurts were, God still had a place for me, and when I got to the place to seek Him about it, He made His will known to me. And it has been great!  Not perfect mind you (that doesn't exist), but wonderful for my relationship with Him!


----------



## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> The scriptural paradigm is "live by the spirit".  I would suggest that a spiritual investigation will produce more fruit than a legal investigation.



I tend to agree with this statement.  But, the truth is that if I determine it is a mandate, I will follow it.  Much like many other mandates which are not easy to follow.  I am not looking for an "out," I already have one.  I am looking for opinions.

You see, I am one of those folks that get "stuck."  I have turned this topic over and over for the last several years trying to see what the "right thing to do" is.  I am not sure.  On one hand, I do not want to support a system that I think is harmful to my family (yes, we have been very hurt by the church, and myself many times).  On the other, I want to "grow."  Can I do that outside an organization?  

This is not an exercise to be "lazy."  Believe me, I find whatever service opportunity I can, and give where I find needs.  I encourage my friends spiritually, as they do for me.  We hold each other accountable.  

I hope that clarifies my position a little bit.  Thanks for your thoughts, they are very appreciated.


----------



## JB0704

THREEJAYS said:


> One last thought,it's been mentioned about the small home based Churchs in the early days ,well to me they would have been small because it was new not because that was the way it was supposed to be forever.



You may have a point.  But, I would venture to say it was more personal.  And to whatever extent, more effective.

II feel I have done my duty by showing up, additional work or giving might be seen as excessive.  I know not everybody is like that.  But in my experience, it requires a lot more commitment to serve when you do not belong to any organization.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I suppose this is why we gather once a week.  I say it's biblical.



But those who work on Sunday? I'm talking about the volunteers who also work a full time job.  They are then only left one day a week to handle personal business. What day do they keep holy?


----------



## Huntinfool

> But those who work on Sunday? I'm talking about the volunteers who also work a full time job. They are then only left one day a week to handle personal business. What day do they keep holy?



Like the people who work in the church on Sunday?  Working with kids, etc?  

According to the fourth commandment, we all only have one day a week to not work.  The folks who work in the church on Sunday are keeping that day holy.  I'm not sure I'm understanding the question correctly.

When I say "it's biblical, what I mean is that it's in line with scripture and not contradictory...not necessarily that it is a scriptural mandate.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> JB,
> 
> This comment bugs me a little(though I don't take offense):
> 
> "And, when we quit caring about being offended, sometimes, bad things happen to good people in the name of "unity." I have seen it. "
> 
> I don't think you see my point so I'll make it blunt.  If Jesus cared more about offense that servanthood, more about His will than His Father's, where would you and I be?  When they spit in His face, sought to kill Him for His words, I mean, shouldn't He have been offended? Yet, He did not open His mouth on His way to the garden and then to the cross. Is He our example or is He not?



I am responding to the entire quote, not just what is above.

Thanks F1.  I appreciate you taking the time to write that out.  It is a testament to your dedication to your beliefs.  And there is wisdom in your comments.

For clarification purposes, what I meant was that I have seen folks continue to support Church leadership in the face of horrible offenses in the name of "unity."  What his did was validate the leadership, and more harm was done to more people because the problem wasn't fixed.  People sat idly by and watched because they were entertained on Sunday morning.

I know I often come across as "relative" in my beliefs, but one thing I absolutely despise is people hurting people in the name of God.

Thanks for the invite to your church.  That is very generous.  I probably live a bit too far away, but the thought is very appreciated.  Over the last several months I have visited 4 different local churches, kind-of testing the waters, but my heart is not "in it."  I don't know how else to explain it.  I don't know where that feeling will lead. 

As to the rest, I will listen, and follow your five steps and see what happens.  #2, laying down my will for his, is the most difficult for any person.  Right now, I kind-of think I am where I am supposed to be.  But, I still have so many questions....thus the post.

Everybody has been awesome on this thread, I really appreciate it.  Good conversation!


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Over the last several months I have visited 4 different local churches, kind-of testing the waters, but my heart is not "in it."



You're welcome at mine any time.  I go to a little church in Hiram, so it's not too far from you.  It'll be very different than what you're used to, but it's a great bunch of people.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So what (and I'm genuinley curious) are the risks in your mind and what are the rewards.
> 
> I obviously see it 180 deg opposite of that.  The rewards are very much worth any risk by a large margin.  So I'm curious what it looks like in your mind that would cause "risks" to be so great.



Ok, HF, let's try to do this cordially......

Risks:
1. Hurt.  This involves many things, but among them are folks holding my past against me, watching leadership make hurtful decisions on gossip (I have seen this a lot), becoming the object of somebody's gossip, having to remove myself when the train falls off the tracks (if it's home it is hard to leave), being told I need to be on board with the "head pastor's vision" (whatever that is).

2. Family.  See above.  How much damage can be caused to a family when things go awry.  When I involve myself in anything, I give it 110%.  That is Biblically mandated.  When things go bad, it affects everything. I have seen many families negatively affected through church involvement because of the churches imperfections.  Pastor's over-working, PK syndrome, adultery, differing visions and loyalties, and people's tendency to get into everybody's business.

3. Blind submission.  I know this isn't every church.  The ones I have been to expect blind trust of the leadership.  I can trust leadership, but they have to earn it.  I don't award it based on position.

4. Folks telling me how I raise my kids is their business 

5. Feeling "fake."  Being part of a "family" when folks don't care about me, or my family.  They just want my service and my money (it happens).  When times are down, I become irrelevant.

6. Time.  Giving time to an experience that might be a net negative.  I can find plenty of ways to serve and not be part of an organization.

7. The list goes on, but I think we might spend the rest of the day picking it apart.

Somebody in this thread said it has to do with opening up.  The truth is I open up to those I trust, and I have a very large circle of friends.  But I don't trust the local church anymore.....they have lost it.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> You're welcome at mine any time.  I go to a little church in Hiram, so it's not too far from you.  It'll be very different than what you're used to, but it's a great bunch of people.



Thanks for the invite, and because of your location I will try to take you up on it.  Like I said, my heart isn't there yet.

When I walk in a church, my cynical nature takes over and I start seeing things that are associated with past things.  I have trouble being open minded.

And, if you knew me, you would understand how funny the idea of me in an orthodox church is.  But, for that reason, I will visit.  Do y'all wear suits?  I usually throw on shorts and a hoodie when I go to church......


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

JB,

As always,  I support you in your search for truth and the will of the Father in your life.

I despise what you despise, thus is the reason I had to leave bad church environments, because they weren't going to change their entrenced deception.  It should be noted that those decisions did not come easy.  And also notable is that neither of these 'churches' exist any longer. That helps me to know that God is all about dealing with deception in the church and I can trust Him.

But eventually and ultimately, I could not reach that fullness and closeness with God without a solid local Body! I am convinced your 'eventually and ultimately' will come.  I entrust you into His hands.  God Bless!


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> And, if you knew me, you would understand how funny the idea of me in an orthodox church is.



I assure you it's no funnier than the idea of _me_ in an Orthodox church. 




JB0704 said:


> Do y'all wear suits?  I usually throw on shorts and a hoodie when I go to church......



Some wear suits.  I'd say "business casual" is more of the norm, but it varies.


----------



## JB0704

Thanks F1.  I appreciate you opening up and relating your story.  This thread has been good for many reasons, but one is that I can see so many others are, or have been, where I am.

CP, I will PM you about Church.  I don't know when.  It is a very kind invite.  I visited the other churches to see where I was, and found I am not "there." If that makes sense.


----------



## Randy

Huntinfool said:


> So you choose to twist scripture with the rest of us...and you don't work....at all on any day?
> 
> 
> 
> Just like JB's comment...this is WAY too broad a generalization.  I know this is how you feel about church and what, possibly, you've experienced.  But there are plenty of churches in your area that look like this...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> We shall not go on sinning so that grace may abound.
> 
> 
> I get that there are a lot of people who have bad impressions of "church".  My feeling is that most of them have gotten to the point that they are afraid to open up...to anybody...not just a church family.  They are afraid to be exposed and to lean on someone else.  So they go around giving reasons why they aren't part of a body of believers that have absolutely nothing to do with why they aren't part of a body.
> 
> There is at least one church in your area that functions as above.



No I work every day as do most Christians.  Not twisting the scripture just admittng that I am not following it, unlike the church.

Yes most of todays Churchs are not doing what I think the Bible says do.  At least the ones I know of.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Risks:
> 1. Hurt. This involves many things, but among them are folks holding my past against me, watching leadership make hurtful decisions on gossip (I have seen this a lot), becoming the object of somebody's gossip, having to remove myself when the train falls off the tracks (if it's home it is hard to leave), being told I need to be on board with the "head pastor's vision" (whatever that is).
> 
> 2. Family. See above. How much damage can be caused to a family when things go awry. When I involve myself in anything, I give it 110%. That is Biblically mandated. When things go bad, it affects everything. I have seen many families negatively affected through church involvement because of the churches imperfections. Pastor's over-working, PK syndrome, adultery, differing visions and loyalties, and people's tendency to get into everybody's business.
> 
> 3. Blind submission. I know this isn't every church. The ones I have been to expect blind trust of the leadership. I can trust leadership, but they have to earn it. I don't award it based on position.
> 
> 4. Folks telling me how I raise my kids is their business
> 
> 5. Feeling "fake." Being part of a "family" when folks don't care about me, or my family. They just want my service and my money (it happens). When times are down, I become irrelevant.
> 
> 6. Time. Giving time to an experience that might be a net negative. I can find plenty of ways to serve and not be part of an organization.
> 
> 7. The list goes on, but I think we might spend the rest of the day picking it apart.
> 
> Somebody in this thread said it has to do with opening up. The truth is I open up to those I trust, and I have a very large circle of friends. But I don't trust the local church anymore.....they have lost it.



Can I ask one more question before I respond (and yes, it will be cordial)?

How many churches are these experiences based on and over what period of time?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Can I ask one more question before I respond (and yes, it will be cordial)?



Sure.




Huntinfool said:


> How many churches are these experiences based on and over what period of time?



Four personally.  I have heard about many others.

Church One was the Church I grew up in.  The head pastor decided to let a wedding be organized between two people who's respective divorces were not finalized until days before the wedding.  I saw 2 music directors fired because of differences with the pastor's wife.  A youth director was fired because of differences with the pastor's kid.  Many others were just "nudged" out.  The church no longer exists.  When the pastor's wife left him, well, things went downhill.

Church two was my "church home" during my first marriage.  Fantastic pastor.  Still admire the man.  When I got divorced, nobody said anything to me even though I had gone there five years.  It was as if it never happened, until one day the idea of the singles group came up, an elder informed me that I would "always be married in the eyes of the lord."  The pastor understood why I left. 

Church three was a brief experience.  The preacher, not knowing anything about me other than I guess I looked a little rough, decided during alter call that there was an unsaved person in the audience.  After 45 minutes of "Just as I am," I looked up, and realized he was pointing to me.  Well, that didn't work, so in front of everybody he came down the aisle and patted me on the shoulder to come with him to the alter.  The pastor was well intentioned, but I knew I would not "fit in."

Church four.  Most recent church. Went there five years.  Saw several staff members fired based on hear say, never being given a chance to explain or defend themselves, the charge: not being on board with the "head pastor's vision." The elders never asked for both sides.  These poor people just walked in and were walked out the door.  One of them on her first day back from maternity leave.  Another, after 14 years with the church and being one of the founding pastors.  However, this church also re-hired a man who had been fired for adultery after a ten month period of reconcilliation.  He was the pastor's friend.  The one's who were walked out, well, nobody ever tried to reconcile them.  The pastor openly demands blind trust, and will not explain himself.  And yes, I know most of the story here.  In addition, the church spent tons of money on appearances in comparison to the benevolence fund.  This church did a lot of good stuff, but was very bad beneath the surface.  Not Godly, humble, meek, or anything.  Just an ice cold "mega-church."  But, they have a good band and the pastor is cool, so nobody stands up to anybody, not even the elders.  

So, it is a pretty broad base of experience.  I simply gave you the overview, and could have written an entire volume on the subject.


----------



## Huntinfool

I forgot to ask....you didn't list the rewards.  I'd be interested to see what you view as the rewards as well.


Honestly, if all I got from church was what you listed above...I wouldn't want to go either.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I forgot to ask....you didn't list the rewards.  I'd be interested to see what you view as the rewards as well.



If you will humor me, I would like to turn this around and ask you to list them after reading my post on church experience, and see them in light of that.


----------



## Huntinfool

Here are just some of the benefits for me:

Deep and long lasting relationships with the couples in our small group and the ability to lean on them through (quite literally) he||.  One couple in particular was there for us during the worst thing we've ever lived through.  In fact, I still remember a phone call I got from a guy in our group telling me he loved me and that he was scared for me.  He simply wanted to remind me that taking my own life was not an option (and it really wasn't...but he didn't know that).

Deep relationship with a group of men who have committed to love their wives well and to train and raise their kids well.  Accountability with those guys who promise me that they love me enough to point out things in my life that might be slipping.

Opportunities to serve with and among all of these people who I desire to be with consistently and opportunities to go out with them into our community to serve and into the world.

Elders who (even though I don't always agree with them) I KNOW bathe every decision they make in prayer and who always speak with one voice rather than defering to one man.  

Elders who support me and my family and have/had the courage to stand up and say when something is not right and to lovingly correct scripturally.

Friendships for my children with children of parents who I know are raising them well and to love the Lord.  

Partnership in training my children in the ways of the Lord.

Knowing that people care about me, that they know when I'm not there and that they are aware when something isn't right.  Knowing that they will pick us up if we're down or in need.

Submission....it's a hard lesson for me.  Having elders who I can trust to lead well gives me the freedom to submit to their authority and to show my children that submission to godly authority is a good thing.

Folks who help me raise my children...because they know it's their business...but not in a negative way.

Knowing that I'm giving of my time and money to further the kingdom of Heaven.

I'm not even scratching the surface with this list.

You see, JB....many of the things that you listed as risks are actually great rewards for me.  People can and will take advantage of other people.  It's just reality.  That is why it is very important to find a church "family" and not just attend a church.  That process takes time and may require lots of effort.  But in the end, it's worth it.

We just bought a house a year ago.  Why?  Well, heck, rates and prices are awesome!  But we didn't buy the house for the house.  We bought the house because it was nice and because it is literally next door to a family in our church who we are close to and who have a bunch of kids around the same ages as ours.  Two of our elders live in the same neighborhood and two other couples that are in our small group just moved into the neighborhood as well...for the same reasons.

We joke and call it our little cult.  But the reality is that we WANT to be around these people as much as possible.  They are uplifting and encouraging and we know that they will help us grow as much as they count on us to do the same.


----------



## JB0704

Ok, now I will note the "rewards" that are accomplished through my current system, and explain my differences with the others:



Huntinfool said:


> Deep and long lasting relationships with the couples in our small group and the ability to lean on them through (quite literally) he||.



Got it.  You may have missed my posts referencing my old small group, which is still together, now it includes all of our wives, just not on a regular basis.



Huntinfool said:


> Deep relationship with a group of men who have committed to love their wives well and to train and raise their kids well. Accountability with those guys who promise me that they love me enough to point out things in my life that might be slipping.



Got it.  See above.



Huntinfool said:


> Opportunities to serve with and among all of these people who I desire to be with consistently and opportunities to go out with them into our community to serve and into the world.



Got it.  Serve and give regularly in various ways in the community.  Just not at "church."




Huntinfool said:


> Elders who (even though I don't always agree with them) I KNOW bathe every decision they make in prayer and who always speak with one voice rather than defering to one man.



Have never had this experience with elders.  They may pray, but it always seems the decision is made before the prayer.  The last church in particular, the elders were an "affirmation committee" for the head pastor.  I just can't give that much trust to folks I don't know.




Huntinfool said:


> Elders who support me and my family and have/had the courage to stand up and say when something is not right and to lovingly correct scripturally.



Got it.  I described my three "mentors" previously in this thread.



Huntinfool said:


> Friendships for my children with children of parents who I know are raising them well and to love the Lord.



Got it.  We all have kids now.  Additionally, I involve my kids heavily in sports, and put them in private schools for many of these reasons.



Huntinfool said:


> Partnership in training my children in the ways of the Lord.



Got it.  She's my wife.



Huntinfool said:


> Knowing that people care about me, that they know when I'm not there and that they are aware when something isn't right.  Knowing that they will pick us up if we're down or in need.



I never got this from church.  Never.  In fact, all I ever got was the opposite.  Now, my friends, they fill this gap and then some!



Huntinfool said:


> Submission....it's a hard lesson for me.  Having elders who I can trust to lead well gives me the freedom to submit to their authority and to show my children that submission to godly authority is a good thing..



If I can't trust them, I can't submit.  This one is probably on me, but it is based on experience, see previous post.



Huntinfool said:


> Folks who help my raise my children...because they know it's their business...but not in a negative way...



Got it.  Again, my wife.



Huntinfool said:


> Knowing that I'm giving of my time and money to further the kingdom of Heaven.



I give much more, and more happily now than I ever have.  Not just money, but also time.



Huntinfool said:


> We joke and call it our little cult.  But the reality is that we WANT to be around these people as much as possible.  They are uplifting and encouraging and we know that they will help us grow as much as they count on us to do the same.



Honestly, HF, it sounds as if your small group is your "church."  Which is also great.

But, do you see how none of the benefits you listed are only achieved through organization?


----------



## Huntinfool

I figured you'd come back with "got those already".  It's different.  Probably can't explain it well enough.  But it's different.

Our church claims that we are not a church WITH small groups....we are a church OF small groups.


You don't need church for friends or relationships or service.  Even atheist can get all of those things outside of an organized church body.

That's why I say it's different.  Perhaps it's intangible.  But it's different.  I know that you don't get it.  I get that.

I wish I could show you what you're missing.  I really do.  I'm sad that you think so poorly of the church. As I said before, organized church is not the ONLY way to do it.  But I firmly believe it's the BEST way.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.  Both a butter knife and a brand new out of the box Buck Skinner will get the same job done.  One is better than the other though.








One of the other benefits that I didn't list is gathering for the purpose of worshiping God and being equipped to go out and fulfill the Great Commission.


----------



## centerpin fan

Randy said:


> The reason of Jesus' reserection was an excuse.  The real reason was the Puritian Christians fleeing the Church in Europe and coming to America did not want to follow the Church's requirements for Saturday as the Holy Day.  It was a revolt in a way.  It started in the 1600's.  Until then, Saturday was the sabbath.



Can you provide a link?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I figured you'd come back with "got those already".  It's different.  Probably can't explain it well enough.  But it's different..



Your not discussing this with a person who never went to church HF.  If you haven't, please read #141.  I would agree that it is different, and better the way I have things in comparison to my experiences.



Huntinfool said:


> Our church claims that we are not a church WITH small groups....we are a church OF small groups...



And I think that's a pretty cool concept.  But, I would ask why the organization is necessary at that point?  The small groups could be more nimble and effective and dedicate a larger portion of their resources to the goal without the additional overhead caused by the organization.



Huntinfool said:


> That's why I say it's different.  Perhaps it's intangible.  But it's different.  I know that you don't get it.  I get that.
> 
> I wish I could show you what you're missing.  I really do.  I'm sad that you think so poorly of the church...



Please see my comments above, and refer to post #141. 

The problem is I do know what I am missing.  That is why I haven't been back. I just have not seen where the benefits outweigh the consequence. I have had a "poor experience," overall.  Let's not get confused that I think others should quit church too, I don't.  I just made this particular call for myself.  Everybody has to decide what is "right" for them and their family (please don't turn this into a "there is only one right way" debate).  I am not trying to influence anyone.  Like I said, just tossing out ideas and seeing what comes floating back.




Huntinfool said:


> One of the other benefits that I didn't list is gathering for the purpose of worshiping God and being equipped to go out and fulfill the Great Commission.



I don't like singing.  I'm not a big fan of Christian music, but do see the artistic value in old hymns.  As far as fulfilling the great commission, again, I can do that without organization.


----------



## Huntinfool

> And I think that's a pretty cool concept. But, I would ask why the organization is necessary at that point? The small groups could be more nimble and effective and dedicate a larger portion of their resources to the goal without the additional overhead caused by the organization.



Our church used it's collective resources and contacts to purchase 10 acres in Dukem Ethiopia.  Through the contacts of one of our members, we got governmental approval to build the ONLY school in the country with the word "Christian" in the name.  Together (and with the help of another "organization") we've built a brand new school, conference center, bakery and other things on that ten acres and the school will open with free tuition to local students next fall.

In the process, we found out that we had a member in our church who has been in charge of international shipping for 25+ years.  He guided us down the very long path of getting two shipping crates into a very corrupt country (not part of our small group).  

....my small group could not have accomplished that on its own (and neither could the church for that matter without God's provision).  But, that is one reason the organization is a good thing.

Perhaps we could have raised the million plus that it required.  But it's doubtful.  We 100% would not have been able to convince the govt to allow it without one particular man who is not part of our small group.



> The problem is I do know what I am missing.



No JB, I'm sorry....

I was going to quote something else and respond, but I'll leave it alone.  I'm starting to get frustrated with you so I'll let it go.  I've got to head out and go cook 30 gallons of chili at our "organization" anyway.  Trunk or Treat tonight for the kids.

The answer to your original post is no, there is no requirement in the Bible that you have to attend organized church.

Like I said, you can skin a cat with a butter knife, but a brand new skinner does the job so much more effectively.  Somewhere along the line that new skinner gashed you so deeply that you'd prefer not try it again.  That just makes me sad.


----------



## JB0704

HF, one small group can contact another, and combine resources.  I was more talking about the overhead of property taxes, lights, water, maintenance, and such that go along with having a building.

And what are you getting frustrated at?  I thought we were having a nice conversation.  That was quite confusing.

Oh, I think the school thing is awesome.  That is what its all about!  Doing good things.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I've got to head out and go cook 30 gallons of chili at our "organization" anyway.



That's cool that your doing that.  I like to do BBQ's.  I have a huge smoker that I tote around (300 gallon, I think).  If you have a good chili recipe, and are feeling generous, please PM me with it.....mine is terrible.


----------



## Huntinfool

One small group contacting another and pooling resources....is an organization...called a church.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> One small group contacting another and pooling resources....is an organization...called a church.



Well, then the first small group is also a church if it is defined by any level of organization.  I have used that term loosley in this thread, but we could define it further if necessary.

I still haven't figured out why you got frustrated, and am still wondering if I am going to get a recipe from you......


----------



## Huntinfool

I have a good recipe. 

Gotta go sharpen my skinner.


----------



## gtparts

JB0704 said:


> (edited for length)
> And I think that's a pretty cool concept (small groups).  But, I would ask why the organization is necessary at that point?  The small groups could be more nimble and effective and dedicate a larger portion of their resources to the goal without the additional overhead caused by the organization.



Synergy, my friend. With organization, duplication of effort and expense can be reduced relative to the task at hand. Consider that there are economies of scale that work to expedite efforts to build relationships with many 3rd world people groups. Buying 300 pumps for clean, deep water wells is cheaper per unit than 1 or 2 at a time, for example. Another reason is that through large organizations, specific critical needs can be met more efficiently. How many medical personnel willing to go to foreign missions for a week, a month, or a year are you likely to find in a small group of 8 to 12 adults? Not many. Will such a small group be able to fund the trip and take care of the family while on mission? Not likely.
I am just trying to point out the power of pooled resources from a larger base. I hope you see my point.



JB0704 said:


> (again, edited for length)
> The problem is I do know what I am missing.  That is why I haven't been back. I just have not seen where the benefits outweigh the consequence. I have had a "poor experience," overall.  Let's not get confused that I think others should quit church too, I don't.  I just made this particular call for myself.  Everybody has to decide what is "right" for them and their family (please don't turn this into a "there is only one right way" debate).  I am not trying to influence anyone.  Like I said, just tossing out ideas and seeing what comes floating back.



It is a genuine shame that your experience with a limited number of local churches has caused you to break relations with the body of Christ. Indeed, my experience would indicate that you are missing a great deal of what God purposed His church to be, to each other and to a lost world. Think about it. Why would God, in His word, encourage participation in the body if it was not the superior way to live according to that which Jesus and His disciples modeled for us?



JB0704 said:


> As far as fulfilling the great commission, again, I can do that without organization.



Just curious, not being critical, but how is that working out?


----------



## mtnwoman

great post gt!

Just a reminder, if we are the body....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBrhVRx4HSI&feature=related


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> Why would God, in His word, encourage participation in the body if it was not the superior way to live according to that which Jesus and His disciples modeled for us?



Good question.


----------



## Huntinfool

Because he is part of the body...just not an organized one.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Because he is part of the body...just not an organized one.



As always HF, I can answer for myself.


----------



## JB0704

gtparts said:


> Synergy, my friend. With organization, duplication of effort and expense can be reduced relative to the task at hand. Consider that there are economies of scale that work to expedite efforts to build relationships with many 3rd world people groups. Buying 300 pumps for clean, deep water wells is cheaper per unit than 1 or 2 at a time, for example. Another reason is that through large organizations, specific critical needs can be met more efficiently. How many medical personnel willing to go to foreign missions for a week, a month, or a year are you likely to find in a small group of 8 to 12 adults? Not many. Will such a small group be able to fund the trip and take care of the family while on mission? Not likely.
> I am just trying to point out the power of pooled resources from a larger base. I hope you see my point.



I do.  My wife has been all over the world on missions trips.  I have supported many others.  I also understand about the wells, and how it is easier to "buy in bulk."  

But, these resources can be pooled in many ways.  Having a church do them is one way, and a good one at that.  From what I understand it takes about $2500 to build a well in Burkina Faso.  My sons little league team raises that much every year for sponsorship money.  They do this without a church.  Parents just go around raising money.

I am not saying the Church is wrong, it is just not the only way.





gtparts said:


> It is a genuine shame that your experience with a limited number of local churches has caused you to break relations with the body of Christ. Indeed, my experience would indicate that you are missing a great deal of what God purposed His church to be, to each other and to a lost world. Think about it. Why would God, in His word, encourage participation in the body if it was not the superior way to live according to that which Jesus and His disciples modeled for us?



Maybe, but is what we have what he had in mind?  We touched on this around #123.  I think G5 brought it up that the NT church and the modern church were different.  You call my experience limited, but it is all I got.  At some point, enough is enough.





gtparts said:


> Just curious, not being critical, but how is that working out?



Very well.  I support several church plants financially, and also give where I find direct needs.  Additionally, I support many who go on these mission trips you mentioned earlier. I see no need in elaborating further because that would just be tacky.  

You don't have to be part of a church to give or go.  Not sure what your point with the question was.


----------



## G5BONECRUSHER

JB0704 said:


> I am responding to the entire comment, but only put the above in quotes so folks would know who I was responding to.
> 
> Thank for jumping in G5.  I think, in many ways, you hit the nail on the head from my perspective.  Particularly in the area of the NT church not recognizing the modern church.  Like you, I had some bad experiences with church.  One day, I just said "enough."  I was done.
> 
> That being said, I also agree with your thoughts on small groups being more reflective of the early church.  I was in a small group for several years, and have alluded to it in this thread.  We don't meet regularly anymore, but we are all best friends, and we are all there when the others need us.  All of this in addition to encouraging each other and holding each other accountable.
> 
> My problem is that I can't get past that position.  I can't rationalize putting myself out there again.  I mentioned a cost benefit analysis.  Currently, the risk outweighs the reward.
> 
> I know there are good churchs out there.  I know there are a lot of good Christian folks who do their best to be the "hands and feet."  I am not condemning the faith or the church.  I just think something has gotten lost along the way and we, Christians as a whole, look the other way.




I can absolutely relate where you are with "weighing the risk and rewards" I have been there. You have been hurt. Your trust has been broken by people that you have given it to in the past, and you are guarded. I still am guarded in many ways. 

I also want to say that I am in no way condemning the Church. I simply don't agree with some who say that the current structure of the modern day church is modeled after the  Biblical New Testament Church. 

In some ways it most certainly is.... but there are also ways that we are much different. 

There are certain intimacies that are lost as any type of organization gets larger. 

This topic weighs very heavy on my heart for many reasons, and when I read some of the responses and accusations that are even made here by believers to other believers it just makes it even more evident to me that we.... We don't do a great job of encouraging one another, of being empathetic, lifting one another up. And then when someone mentions that somethings off we had rather search the scripture for ways to justify our actions than to sit down and really ask if we can we do better at being like Christ. When I say we, I include myself. 

We the body of believers especially here in the United States do a pretty good job at foreign missions, and we can continue to do better. I have been on mission trips to Africa and if you really want to see a good example of what the early church was like go on a mission trip and go to one of the house churches  that still live in regions where technology is still much like biblical times. It will give you a different perspective on how they operated and lived in communion with one another. The Church today is doing many things well I am just convicted that we can do better at supporting those within the body.

 We like like the pharacies focus so much on whats right or wrong about what others do or others views that we miss addressing the physical needs conditions of the heart of our own brothers and sisters in Christ.  Jesus Knew that sin is a symptom of a heart problem. If the condition of our hearts are right discernment. 

JB again I truly relate and it perplexes me when i hear stories like yours, mine and many others, but I know that we are all flawed, as long as humans are the church these things will happen. 

God did press on my heart that he wanted me to be involved and I did fight it for a while. This is really what got me and I just couldn't get around it.

 If this is truly an issue within the body, am I bringing Glory and Honor and Joy to my King by separating myself or by getting involved and trying to impact the Body for his Glory.  

Does that make any sense?


----------



## mtnwoman

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> I can absolutely relate where you are with "weighing the risk and rewards" I have been there. You have been hurt. Your trust has been broken by people that you have given it to in the past, and you are guarded. I still am guarded in many ways.
> 
> I also want to say that I am in no way condemning the Church. I simply don't agree with some who say that the current structure of the modern day church is modeled after the  Biblical New Testament Church.
> 
> In some ways it most certainly is.... but there are also ways that we are much different.
> 
> There are certain intimacies that are lost as any type of organization gets larger.
> 
> This topic weighs very heavy on my heart for many reasons, and when I read some of the responses and accusations that are even made here by believers to other believers it just makes it even more evident to me that we.... We don't do a great job of encouraging one another, of being empathetic, lifting one another up. And then when someone mentions that somethings off we had rather search the scripture for ways to justify our actions than to sit down and really ask if we can we do better at being like Christ. When I say we, I include myself.
> 
> We the body of believers especially here in the United States do a pretty good job at foreign missions, and we can continue to do better. I have been on mission trips to Africa and if you really want to see a good example of what the early church was like go on a mission trip and go to one of the house churches  that still live in regions where technology is still much like biblical times. It will give you a different perspective on how they operated and lived in communion with one another. The Church today is doing many things well I am just convicted that we can do better at supporting those within the body.
> 
> We like like the pharacies focus so much on whats right or wrong about what others do or others views that we miss addressing the physical needs conditions of the heart of our own brothers and sisters in Christ.  Jesus Knew that sin is a symptom of a heart problem. If the condition of our hearts are right discernment.
> 
> JB again I truly relate and it perplexes me when i hear stories like yours, mine and many others, but I know that we are all flawed, as long as humans are the church these things will happen.
> 
> God did press on my heart that he wanted me to be involved and I did fight it for a while. This is really what got me and I just couldn't get around it.
> 
> If this is truly an issue within the body, am I bringing Glory and Honor and Joy to my King by separating myself or by getting involved and trying to impact the Body for his Glory.
> 
> Does that make any sense?



It makes a lot of sense and it's a very nice post.


----------



## JB0704

G5BONECRUSHER said:


> This topic weighs very heavy on my heart for many reasons, and when I read some of the responses and accusations that are even made here by believers to other believers it just makes it even more evident to me that we.... We don't do a great job of encouraging one another, of being empathetic, lifting one another up. And then when someone mentions that somethings off we had rather search the scripture for ways to justify our actions than to sit down and really ask if we can we do better at being like Christ. When I say we, I include myself.



I need to do a better job personally.  I do tend to be very cynical towards other Christians.  Never looked at it from that angle.



G5BONECRUSHER said:


> I have been on mission trips to Africa and if you really want to see a good example of what the early church was like go on a mission trip and go to one of the house churches  that still live in regions where technology is still much like biblical times. It will give you a different perspective on how they operated and lived in communion with one another. The Church today is doing many things well I am just convicted that we can do better at supporting those within the body.



I would love to go to Africa.  My wife has been, and several friends have been.  I thought about this today, how different the church looked when we didn't have all the "organization" and technology we currently have.  What did it look like on the frontier, and the far flung places which didn't have enough people to be much more than a small group?  Your description of the African church is interesting.  I think they think of their small body of believers as a Church.

The most connected I have ever felt to a body was my previous small group. 



G5BONECRUSHER said:


> God did press on my heart that he wanted me to be involved and I did fight it for a while. This is really what got me and I just couldn't get around it.



I want to be involved to some level as well.  Recently, I went every Saturday to set up the pre-school area for a Church that was meeting in a local school.  I did not attend the church, but I enjoy helping.  

Who knows, maybe I will find something like what you found.  I don't know.

I really appreciate this post.  Good thoughts.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> As always HF, I can answer for myself.



My understanding of what you're saying and the point you're making.  Not answering for you.  




> My sons little league team raises that much every year for sponsorship money. They do this without a church. Parents just go around raising money.
> 
> I am not saying the Church is wrong, it is just not the only way.



Lots of random thoughts in this next part...so forgive me.

So, a little league team can accomplish the same things that the body of Christ can accomplish The Church is just another organization that can do good things, like the Red Cross or a baseball team or Kiwanis.

What I'm reading is that there is anything necessarily special about the Church and, in fact, it actually does more harm than good in most cases...that we're likely better off devoting our energies to other organizations that do good but won't also hurt us in the name of Christ.

If you have time, would you try to write out what your description of the ideal church would be?  I mean one that you would willingly attend and want to be a part of.

Also, the thought occurred to me last night that I'm curious how you were introduced to most of the people in your life who you revere spiritually.  The "small group".  The "elders".  How were you introduced to those people?  Did the church play a role in that?

Another thought from last night as we had fun with the kids.  We have recently seen a rush of what the world calls "less fortunate" people attending our church...and they brought a BUNCH of their friends with them last night because of what they've experienced in the body of Christ.  They are people who I don't know, who I wouldn't know and who (quite honestly) my flesh doesn't want to know a lot of times.  But I am blessed by them and their children and am blessed to participate in growing them in Christ.  

You mentioned earlier that it sounded like my small group was my church.  That is not true.  My small group is the group of believers who I am closest to (as is yours).  They are the people who know me deeper than any other group of people.  But they are not my church.  If they were, then my church would ONLY be people who are a lot like me, who I'm comfortable with, who live a life like me and I would never be challenged to love and accept someone into consistent fellowship, love and support who I am not completely comfortable with.  The church is an opportunity for God to bring people into fellowship with me.  The doors are open to any and all who he brings.  My small group is essentially "by invitation only" since we meet in a home and you would not know to come be with us unless you were invited.

To a large degree, I think many of us like small groups because we feel we can control them.  Just blatant honesty for me.  But I suspect it's true for most in here as well.

I essence, church sometimes forces me out of my comfort zone.  That is something that we are naturally....not comfortable with.  But it's good for us.  Small group is very comfortable.  Being part of the larger church body, sometimes, is not....for good reasons as well as the bad that you've listed.


----------



## JB0704

HF, looks like you got an early start.  This is a long response, please take the time to read through it.  

I think you think I am attacking the church.  I am not.  If you read my thoughts, I have been asking what the mandate was.  I have counter-pointed many comments only to validate my belief that an organized body is not necessary.  That does not mean that it is not good.

But I will respond to your questions:



Huntinfool said:


> So, a little league team can accomplish the same things that the body of Christ can accomplish The Church is just another organization that can do good things, like the Red Cross or a baseball team or Kiwanis..



If you read my comments, I point out that church is not the only way.  That was the only point of mentioning the little league team.  But, in that context, yes, the local church is an organization that can do good things.  If it works for you, then I am happy for you.  It has not worked for me, instead, it has been a net negative, as demonstrated.



Huntinfool said:


> What I'm reading is that there is anything necessarily special about the Church and, in fact, it actually does more harm than good in most cases...that we're likely better off devoting our energies to other organizations that do good but won't also hurt us in the name of Christ...



You read too much into things, HF.  The church could be special. But, would you consider every church special?  I don't.  Some of them are pure evil.  Some of them are very good.  The title does not make it what it should be.  I think that is where you are missing my point all together.  If what I had experienced was similar to the NT body, a community of believers with a common cause, I assume I would be telling a different story on this board today.



Huntinfool said:


> If you have time, would you try to write out what your description of the ideal church would be?  I mean one that you would willingly attend and want to be a part of....



See the comments at the end. 



Huntinfool said:


> Also, the thought occurred to me last night that I'm curious how you were introduced to most of the people in your life who you revere spiritually.  The "small group".  The "elders".  How were you introduced to those people?  Did the church play a role in that?....



Some through church, some through sports, school, work, family and friends.



Huntinfool said:


> If they were, then my church would ONLY be people who are a lot like me, who I'm comfortable with, who live a life like me and I would never be challenged to love and accept someone into consistent fellowship, love and support who I am not completely comfortable with.  The church is an opportunity for God to bring people into fellowship with me.  The doors are open to any and all who he brings.  My small group is essentially "by invitation only" since we meet in a home and you would not know to come be with us unless you were invited.



My small group was open to anybody who wanted to come.  I always made sure I cooked twice as much food as was needed in case of a crowd, and sometimes folks would just show up.  You say yours is "like minded" and folks you are comfortable with, mine was very different:

My small group had doctors, IT professionals, construction workers, fire fighters, college students, military, businessmen, Mechanics, landscapers, etc.  It was incredibly diverse.

When we met, we would always eat dinner together. When that was done we would get into the Bible and we all had different opinions. These folks had grown up Catholic, Baptist, Methodist, Non-denom, Church of God, and atheist (recent believer).

Often, we would debate. All opinions were welcome.  The debate got very heated at times, but, at the end of the night, we all walked away very close friends.  Through the years as we all got married we all were in each other's weddings, so lots of bachelor parties, engagement parties, wedding gifts, and tuxedo rentals.  When one of us died (my hunting buddy I mentioned in another thread), we all took off work to be there, and made sure there was a serious cook out afterwards.  At get togethers, we still make sure he is remembered....a "there in spirit" kind-of thing.

As far as outreach goes, we helped every time we were asked.  We organized food delivery to the poor, we supported efforts in many countries, we helped people move every time we were asked even when we did not know the people we were helping (the church usually called us....had to give you that), we helped churches build many things.  

The point is that this group was tossed together through word of mouth and an open invite.  We disagreed with each other on everything, but to this day I have a reltavely large group of very close friends who would be there for me in a heartbeat. 

You asked for my "ideal church," I just described it.


----------



## Huntinfool

> You asked for my "ideal church," I just described it.



Then why did it stop gathering together?




> If you read my comments, I point out that church is not the only way.



You keep saying that.  The only way to what?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Then why did it stop gathering together??



I should have mentioned it was a "men's" small group.  It was ideal in spirit (service), not in that it had no women members.  

We all got married, some moved away, we still keep in touch and are very close friends.  We were all single at the beginning.  Once we got married, well, life takes over.  The dynamic changes when a "men's small group" adds women.  So, we all went seperate ways.  Some are still in a small group together, some have started a "home church."  Most left the chruch we were based out of.

We still meet, just not regularly, and its not organized.  Its more like a cookout.



Huntinfool said:


> You keep saying that.  The only way to what?



The only way to raise money.  To serve God, etc.  Whatever I am responding to at the moment.

I typed all that and these were your only questions?


----------



## Huntinfool

Yep...those were my only questions.

Of course church is not the only way to serve God or to raise money.  Has anybody ever suggested that?

My issue with this topic is not whether you have to attend church or not.  My issue is that the reasons you've put forth for rejecting the local church do not hold water IMO (yes, my opinion and your reasons are your reasons).  I understand that you're not saying that the local church is "bad".  But comments like "pure evil" and the very fact that you choose to reject it out of hand indicate that you do, in fact, think that the local church is not as good as "other options".

You can make the case that some individual churches are disfunctional and that you have been hurt by individual churches.  But you have projected that feeling across all individual churches to the point that you reject them all.

I know, based on past posts (and your still very funny avatar) that you've been hurt in other areas of your life deeply.  Why did you not give up in those areas on the "traditional format"?  Why is the local church different in that regard for you?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> But comments like "pure evil" and the very fact that you choose to reject it out of hand indicate that you do, in fact, think that the local church is not as good as "other options".



I said some churches are pure evil.   Not all.  Think about those that protest military funerals.  That is the most extreme case. People getting hurt in the name of God is never a good thing, and I have seen a lot of that.  Remember, I gave an overview of experiences, there is much more to tell.   From personal experience, I have come across a lot of bad stuff in church, HF.  I don't know how else to explain it.



Huntinfool said:


> You can make the case that some individual churches are disfunctional and that you have been hurt by individual churches.  But you have projected that feeling across all individual churches to the point that you reject them all.
> 
> I know, based on past posts (and your still very funny avatar) that you've been hurt in other areas of your life deeply.  Why did you not give up in those areas on the "traditional format"?  Why is the local church different in that regard for you?



Well, church is different than marriage, but, to a great extent, I live a less than ordinary life. It took years and years of bad experiences from several churches for me to give up on church.  If I ended up getting divorced and remarried several more times, well, I might try something different there as well.

But as far as projecting across all Churches, I guess the best way to put it is that I got "tired" of things, many of which are described here.  It hurts thinking about going through it again.

It could be a defense mechanism.  There is a chance that a "perfect" church is right around the corner.  I would still be "afraid" to go based on what I have seen, and let's face it, looking for the right church ain't easy.  And when I find it and really dig in, it would hurt again the next time something else happens.


----------



## Huntinfool

> And when I find it and really dig in, it would hurt again the next time something else happens.



You could say the same thing about marriage.  But, in marriage, we have faith that we know our partner well enough and trust that that "something else" won't happen.  

I would suggest that it's possible to "date" a local church long enough (in fact, it's pretty common) to get to that same level of comfort.  Nobody is suggesting that you find a church and dive in head first and with reckless abandon.  I would say it's downright irresponsible to visit one church one week and "join" the next.  You have no idea what you're getting into.

Any relationship, whether marriage or with a church body, takes a lot of time to develop and learn to trust.


----------



## JB0704

I know folks who give every church they visit 4 weeks before they say "no," but months before they say "yes."  I dunno.  The whole process is exhausting to think about.  I figured that was where you were going with the marriage reference, and it was a good analogy.  

The problem is one that even you have mentioned in other threads: often, those who run the church don't have time to get to know everybody (such as Andy Stanley).  So, you are putting your trust in folks who don't want or have time to have a relationship with the congregants.  Maybe not you specifically, but people often follow leaders who they have no clue what they are like.  So, in that sense, you give a lot more blind trust to a church than you ever would a spouse.

I do get your analogy, though.


----------



## Huntinfool

> but people often follow leaders who they have no clue what they are like.



...and that is a big mistake.  Don't do that.  That's why I suggested the "date" the church thing.

Your stuff is your call obviously.  I just want you to understand that your experiences are not what the church is supposed to be and there are many many churches that do operate biblically, lovingly and with great reverence to God and his Word. 

It is a great myth that most local churches are run by corrupt men who operate selfishly and take advantage of the faith of those in the body.  Some do.  Most don't.


----------



## hawglips

I love going to church, paying tithes and offerings to the church, serving other members in the church, and fellowshipping with the members of the congregation.  There is much more to being Christian than merely going to church.  But to gather with the believers and worship and remember what Christ has done for us, and to be uplifted and encouraged and strengthened to walk in His paths, is a wonderful blessing that can't quite be duplicated outside of the physical place of worship.  

As far as Biblical mandates, in the OT during Moses' time, it was commanded to go to the tabernacle and worship through sacrifices.  The entire law of Moses kept them in remembrance of God.  Before then, they built altars for the sacrifices that they had been commanded to offer.  After Christ came, he commanded us to meet together often and partake of the sacrament to remember his sacrifice for us.   The physical aspect of worship helps us keep the spirit where it needs to be.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> It is a great myth that most local churches are run by corrupt men who operate selfishly and take advantage of the faith of those in the body.  Some do.  Most don't.



I don't think all preachers or elders are corrupt.  Sometimes, you get very good men in leadership who are hurt by the congregation. I once saw a single family turn half the church against a very good man over something very small.  Everybody was to blame, not just the one family, but everybody who took part in the gossip and backstabbing. People are people, after all, and are capable of some pretty awful stuff.  

In reference to getting to know the leadership, that would be hard in a church of much size.  I know some small churches still visit and the pastor takes folks to lunch, etc.  But the bigger ones, well, they physically can't.  That is my biggest case against "mega churches."  It is impossible to know the leadership.


----------



## JB0704

hawglips said:


> But to gather with the believers and worship and remember what Christ has done for us, and to be uplifted and encouraged and strengthened to walk in His paths, is a wonderful blessing that can't quite be duplicated outside of the physical place of worship.



I am glad you enjoy church.  The statement above, do you mean that universally or personally?

I find that it is moments of solitude are when I feel the most uplifted spiritualy.


----------



## G5BONECRUSHER

JB0704 said:


> I know folks who give every church they visit 4 weeks before they say "no," but months before they say "yes."  I dunno.  The whole process is exhausting to think about.



This is exactly what my wife and I did, except we said two weeks before we would decide to move on. If we felt a church was a possible good fit for us we would still move on to the next and come back later after we narrowed it down to 4. We were very prayerful over each decision and continually asking God to lead us to the place he wanted us.  After about 5 churches we had 2 on our list to go back to.

 We actually broke from our plan and went back to one of those 2, after that we visited another for two weeks and we wanted to go back to that same Church again so we did. We continued to visit there for several months before we made the commitment to make it our home.

 It was exhausting.... The whole process took nearly a year. 

I believe it was worth it though.


----------



## The Foreigner

Ok ... how did I miss this thread...?

Time to get stuck in... the concept of church is at an all time low, it seems to me - hence JB0704's questions and conduct towards church (non- accusatroy tone there - just an observation). I've not read every thread either - haven't got time. Here's my 10 cents on why you should be in church...

1. Christ died for his flock - he clearly teaches that in John 10.

2. The flock is not some amorphous, undefined group of people. It is those who belong to the church (and those who will be brought into the church).

3. God has always operated with a "people" who are marked out as such, and belong to his group, whether OT or NT.

4. The church of the NT would indeed recognize today's church, not the disparity, but certainly much of the practice and government. To say otherwise is to ignore the history of worship - Centrepin fan is right on with his historical comments.

5. We are expected to worship as a people, not as individuals.

6. Explicit scriptural warrant: "do not forsake the gathering of yoursleves together, as is the manner of some" Heb 10:25 - clearly written to a worship context.  Again in Heb 13:17 "Obey your leaders and submit to them for they are keeping watch over your souls". Again, there is an authority in Christ's church, which he has placed there. Non-attendance snubs not just that authority but snubs Christ himself.

7. Implicit Scriptural warrant - Peter in 1 Pet 5 tells the elders to "shepherd the flock of God" - how could one possibly do this, if not only attendance but also membership were not present. No church pastoring, encouraging, not to mention discipline, could ever take place (see  1 Cor 5:1-2 if you want warrant for discipline) if attendance or membership was not necessary.   

8. We've all had bad experiences in church - I don't mean to be rude, get over it. You should try being a pastor - then you'd know about bad experiences. The church is not man's it is Christ's - do we not trust him to rule in and through the good and the bad?

9. Absenting yourself from the gathered worship is self-excommunication. That's really really serious stuff. To put oneself outside of  Christ's body is akin to what Paul told the Corinthian church to do to the man who was in sexual immorality - delivering one's self over "for the destruction of the flesh".

10. ... couldn't think of a tenth.

In short - YES you must belong to the imperfect, sinful bride of Christ, which Christ has redeemed and is perfecting. If you put yourself outside of Christ's church in time, why should you think you will be inside it come eternity?

Peace to all.


----------



## JB0704

The Foreigner said:


> Ok ... how did I miss this thread...?



Better late than never, glad you weighed in!  Good thoughts.  I am curious, though, if I am actually outside "the body."  No, I don't belong to an organization, but I do involve myself with service and fellowship.

As far as "get over it,"  I know how hard many in the ministry have things. I mentioned this a few posts back where I talked about ministers being on the wrong end of the negativity. I have a brother in the ministry and three very close friends are pastors of churches.  They tend to agree with you.  But this mentality ignores a lot of what I am trying to say: if we stand by and continue to subject ourselves to the junk, are we not complicit in it?  

I know you mean well, and understand scripture a lot better than I do, but let's consider those who lived on the frontier, or those who live in remote places, what body do they belong to?

My point is that I tend to disagree that the modern church, at least in my experience, does not act like a community of believers.  It acts more like a business, with an entertainment value.  I also agree that what I read in the NT, as far as the spirit of the group, is far different than what I have known.

Thanks for weighing in!


----------



## The Foreigner

Hey man .. glad to be back!

Couple of things: the "get over it" comment was incendiary, I know that, but that is the bottom line. You've made some helpful observations, but I can't help thinking that your entire position stands on the exception, rather than the rule.

Take for example the "frontier" comment - it's irrelevant in today's society. And when Christians pushed back the frontier, guess what... they formed churches under the authority of Christ.

The hurt issue is another situation - we've all been hurt in church, sometimes by our own folly, other times by the folly and sin of others. Christ didn't abandon his church because he was hurt by them  - when Peter denied him, and his disciples fled, he did not flee their communion - he came back to THEM after his resurrection. The New testament does not know of Christians OUTSIDE the body of believers. It is utterly incongruous for someone to claim to belong to Christ, yet to set himself outside of the "body" or the "bride" of Christ, by not adhering to the authority that Christ has set up.

Furthermore, just because you don't see some / many churches looking like the NT, simply means you haven't looked around enough. I know of one, that neither looks, feels nor runs like a business, which is not so far from where you live ... They are out there. That is not to say that your observation concerning chruches looking either like a business or an entertainment set up are not true. They clearly are.

I think you need to examine the concept of biblical authority more clearly before you pass judgment on the whole church. Also you need to examine the biblical concept of the church to really determine if you are "in it" or "out of it".  Keep searching.

Peace.


----------



## gordon 2

The Foreigner said:


> Hey man .. glad to be back!
> 
> Couple of things: the "get over it" comment was incendiary, I know that, but that is the bottom line. You've made some helpful observations, but I can't help thinking that your entire position stands on the exception, rather than the rule.
> 
> Take for example the "frontier" comment - it's irrelevant in today's society. And when Christians pushed back the frontier, guess what... they formed churches under the authority of Christ.
> 
> The hurt issue is another situation - we've all been hurt in church, sometimes by our own folly, other times by the folly and sin of others. Christ didn't abandon his church because he was hurt by them  - when Peter denied him, and his disciples fled, he did not flee their communion - he came back to THEM after his resurrection. The New testament does not know of Christians OUTSIDE the body of believers. It is utterly incongruous for someone to claim to belong to Christ, yet to set himself outside of the "body" or the "bride" of Christ, by not adhering to the authority that Christ has set up.
> 
> Furthermore, just because you don't see some / many churches looking like the NT, simply means you haven't looked around enough. I know of one, that neither looks, feels nor runs like a business, which is not so far from where you live ... They are out there. That is not to say that your observation concerning chruches looking either like a business or an entertainment set up are not true. They clearly are.
> 
> I think you need to examine the concept of biblical authority more clearly before you pass judgment on the whole church. Also you need to examine the biblical concept of the church to really determine if you are "in it" or "out of it".  Keep searching.
> 
> Peace.



And were does one find in scripture the biblical concept of the church?


----------



## The Foreigner

gordon 2 said:


> And were does one find in scripture the biblical concept of the church?



Are you serious? Or just kidding?


----------



## gtparts

JB0704 said:


> Better late than never, glad you weighed in!  Good thoughts.  I am curious, though, if I am actually outside "the body."  No, I don't belong to an organization, but I do involve myself with service and fellowship.
> 
> As far as "get over it,"  I know how hard many in the ministry have things. I mentioned this a few posts back where I talked about ministers being on the wrong end of the negativity. I have a brother in the ministry and three very close friends are pastors of churches.  They tend to agree with you.  But this mentality ignores a lot of what I am trying to say: if we stand by and continue to subject ourselves to the junk, are we not complicit in it?
> 
> I know you mean well, and understand scripture a lot better than I do, but let's consider those who lived on the frontier, or those who live in remote places, what body do they belong to?
> 
> My point is that I tend to disagree that the modern church, at least in my experience, does not act like a community of believers.  It acts more like a business, with an entertainment value.  I also agree that what I read in the NT, as far as the spirit of the group, is far different than what I have known.
> 
> Thanks for weighing in!



Absolutely!! You or anyone else that stands by when there is a sin problem within the body is complicit. The issue is compounded by inaction or running for the hills. God's spirit brings these things up so that action may be taken to correct them. To a great extent, if you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. 

From observation, the operations of most local churches, of necessity, have elements of businesses and  entertainment. The model is quite different from most secular businesses, but decisions must be made on many things that mirror the world around us; finances, maintenance, literature, music, expansion of the "physical plant", etc., are all relevant to most 21 century churches to some degree. 

I see little chance that these things will change before Christ returns. If that holds true, we need to do the best we can to do them in a God-honoring manner, but bailing out is not a Scriptural option ..... to abandon the local body, without making every effort to set things right.

On another point, would you prefer Christians source their entertainment inside the body or outside? The point is, your withdrawal does nothing to correct or encourage the fellowship of the body. 

I think you know what God has called you to, but playing the Lone Ranger is not anywhere in Scripture.

I pray that you will reconsider your position. I do not see it supported by God's word.


----------



## gordon 2

The Foreigner said:


> Are you serious? Or just kidding?




Serious. I mean not everyone gets it from the same place. What is you suggestion?


----------



## JB0704

I appreciate your thoughts....



The Foreigner said:


> Couple of things: the "get over it" comment was incendiary, I know that, but that is the bottom line.



A few things, minimizing my experience does not eliminate it.  The way I see it, my experience compounds what I have witnessed others go through, such as the preachers I mentioned earlier.  Another thought, I kind-of am over it.....just not the traditional way 



The Foreigner said:


> Take for example the "frontier" comment - it's irrelevant in today's society.



But the point remains that belonging to an organized body is not 100% applicable.  That's all I meant with that one.




The Foreigner said:


> The Foreigner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I know of one, that neither looks, feels nor runs like a business, which is not so far from where you live ...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have a point, and I have been thinking on that......
> 
> 
> 
> The Foreigner said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think you need to examine the concept of biblical authority more clearly before you pass judgment on the whole church. Also you need to examine the biblical concept of the church to really determine if you are "in it" or "out of it".  Keep searching.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Right now, I think I am in the universal body, and out of the local body.  I am not certain if the second is a biblical mandate.  You listed some scripture, and I avoided counter-pointing them all, but would like to point out that when I invite several families of believers over for dinner, then that is an assembly where we break bread and pray together.
> 
> I know there are good leaders out there, and they are usually the ones who get trampled by the "villains" in the congregation.  I have seen it both ways. I've not really judged the whole church.  I just said "enough."  I have tried to be very vague as to the details, but when the folks who are supposed to Shepard people turn out to be the "villains," then our entire concept of trust is broken.
> 
> I am going to separate out another post within this thread that might explain this a little better.
> 
> This thread is very helpful and I can't tell y'all how much I have appreciated all the input from everybody.
Click to expand...


----------



## JB0704

gtparts said:


> You or anyone else that stands by when there is a sin problem within the body is complicit. The issue is compounded by inaction or running for the hills. God's spirit brings these things up so that action may be taken to correct them. To a great extent, if you are not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.



I agree with you, but have been told, by many, that the solution is to find another Church.....and that is the whole issue.  A modern thought on this is that God gives the pastor a vision, the congregation gets on board or leaves.  There is no "correcting" mechanism, and the elders have been diminished to an advisory role.  This gives the pastor the authority of God, and I can't stand for that.  This is what I am hearing in many, many churches.




gtparts said:


> I see little chance that these things will change before Christ returns. If that holds true, we need to do the best we can to do them in a God-honoring manner, but bailing out is not a Scriptural option ..... to abandon the local body, without making every effort to set things right.



I'm glad you mentioned this.  A boycott is still an effort.  Would many local churches take time to examine what they are, and what they are preaching, doing, believing if their numbers began to dwindle?  I think so, I know many "mega-churches" are so numbers driven, that a pattern of decline forces a change of direction.  The problem is the lazy congregations which stand by and do nothing when bad things happen to good people because the pastor makes them feel warm and fuzzy on Sunday and the band totally rocks the house.




gtparts said:


> On another point, would you prefer Christians source their entertainment inside the body or outside? The point is, your withdrawal does nothing to correct or encourage the fellowship of the body.



Point taken.




gtparts said:


> I think you know what God has called you to, but playing the Lone Ranger is not anywhere in Scripture.
> 
> I pray that you will reconsider your position. I do not see it supported by God's word.



Thanks GT, I appreciate your thoughts (I mean that sincerely).  In the letters, Paul tells folks to stand firm for what they believe in.  I know this sounds cheesy, but I am.  For example, and this is just one of many "gripes," I will not support an organization which is driven by numbers, and that is a trend I have seen in almost all that I have visited or been a part of.  What this does is it changes the focus off of Jesus and puts it on the marketing to draw folks in....but to what end?  Why are they there, to support the organization?  It just goes in a big circle and the only thing that is accomplished is numerical growth, and often that growth is at the expense of another church and not growth of new believers.

And then, when somebody says "maybe this isn't the best course of action" they are told that they have to get on board with the pastor or leave.  That leads to church hopping.  You never find "home."


----------



## The Foreigner

Men

I'm going to post Monday on this important issue. Busy tomorrow as you know...

Hope all have a blessed weekend in the presence of the Saviour! No seriously, I mean that.

Peace.


----------



## thedeacon

A lady told me one time that she didn't attend services on Wednesday night because the bible didn't say she had to.

It bothers me when someone doesn't go to Church because they say they don't get anything out of it. I do agree there is a part on the Church that should make the services as good as possible but it is also true that if Jesus himself was preaching there would be at least one person that didn't like the sermon and at least one that would be offended by some part of the sermon.

We have gotten the idea the Churches, ministers, Worship Leaders, Elders, Deacons, Bible School teachers etc main job is to spoon feed us the Gospel. 

NOT SO. We should never leave our home to go to worship God with our brothers and sisters thinking only about what we will get out of the service.

We should go with the attitude of what can we attribute to the worship service.

I have never been in a situation where I couldn't get anything out of a lesson or a sermon.

What can I add to a worship should always be the question on our minds not what can they do for me. I am here sup me before I starve to death.

Atteding the services is probably the very least thing you could do to serve God, if you won't do the least thing, do you think you can be depending on to do great things.

Just my thoughts, God bless


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Deacon,

In light of your wisdom, I offer this scripture for all of us to hear, hopefully, with Spirit ears.  God Bless!

Ephesians 4:28
Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.


----------



## JB0704

I appreciate your comments, and agree with much of it. A few thoughts.....



thedeacon said:


> It bothers me when someone doesn't go to Church because they say they don't get anything out of it.......We have gotten the idea the Churches, ministers, Worship Leaders, Elders, Deacons, Bible School teachers etc main job is to spoon feed us the Gospel.



I agree, but this is one of my points of contention....that church has become entertainment.  I have seen congregations sit and let bad things happen because they were entertained. 



thedeacon said:


> We should go with the attitude of what can we attribute to the worship service.



This assumes the "average Joe's" contributions are welcome.  Often, "sinners" are not allowed to serve (even though we all are), untalented people are not allowed to play / sing / pray.  If a church calls on different folks to pray (many "contemporary" churches have done away with this practice) those who pray are judged according to the merit of their prayer....which I find ridiculous. 




thedeacon said:


> Atteding the services is probably the very least thing you could do to serve God, if you won't do the least thing, do you think you can be depending on to do great things.



But there are two ways of looking at this.  Currently, it requires a lot more effort on my part to serve.  I accomplish this goal, but I have to be proactive.  Allowing "church" to be my "service" would take a lot of the effort from me.  I find my current practice much more rewarding than my previous efforts in church because it requires a much more giving attitude, and more dedication.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> Ephesians 4:28
> Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.



Right.  But does this require a local body?  I believe the evidence is "no."


----------



## gtparts

JB0704 said:


> (edited to address a point in the last two paragraphs)
> In the letters, Paul tells folks to stand firm for what they believe in.  I know this sounds cheesy, but I am.  For example, and this is just one of many "gripes," I will not support an organization which is driven by numbers, and that is a trend I have seen in almost all that I have visited or been a part of.  What this does is it changes the focus off of Jesus and puts it on the marketing to draw folks in....but to what end?  Why are they there, to support the organization?  It just goes in a big circle and the only thing that is accomplished is numerical growth, and often that growth is at the expense of another church and not growth of new believers.
> 
> And then, when somebody says "maybe this isn't the best course of action" they are told that they have to get on board with the pastor or leave.  That leads to church hopping.  You never find "home."



You know as well as I do, that if one person interacts with another to any significant degree, one will eventually disappoint the other. It is true of all relationships that go beyond the superficial. Matthew 5 (among other things) calls us to be peacemakers, not peacekeepers. Peace can be kept by terminating a relationship that is experiencing stress.... you simply take a different direction that prevents you from "rubbing up" against the other party or them "rubbing up" on you. But, being a peacemaker requires us to constantly rethink our attitudes towards others. 

It is then that peacemaking becomes difficult, for we must model Christ in all we say and do. Jesus spoke and different people heard different things. One found the words compelling, drawing him/her closer to God and His kingdom. Another found the words annoying or offensive, and quickly departed. Some loved the truth and what is bestowed when we allow the truth into our lives. Others hate the truth because it exposes their sin, which they have already justified in their own minds. Unfortunately, this is true in a secular setting, but even more so when it is manifested among believers.

So, whats a guy to do? Well, sometimes God calls us to stand our ground in His righteousness for the benefit of others... as well as ourselves. Other times, He grants us permission, even pushes us, to move on. It is always for the best. God never wants us to receive less than His best. But, He never desires for us to go it alone. He has every intention to bless you through the church and to bless the church through you. You will never receive the full blessing "standing on the outside" and the church will remain less than God intended by your absence. I think both of those situations break His heart.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> Right.  But does this require a local body?  I believe the evidence is "no."



JB, 

This might be tough to swallow, but if you quit trying to justify by evidence and walk by faith, your relationship with your Heavenly Father would be alot better off. You cannot please God any other way!


----------



## SkeeterEater

"If your scared go to church"

Snoop Dog


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> This might be tough to swallow, but if you quit trying to justify by evidence and walk by faith, your relationship with your Heavenly Father would be alot better off. You cannot please God any other way!



Maybe so.  But there is a difference between faith in God and faith in people.  Belonging to a body requires a level of submission to the body, the human element, which requires faith in man.

I can't tell you how many times I have heard somebody say "I just trust that God is leading the leaders," when the leaders had clearly fallen off the wagon, in some cases were living in adultery, or just being awful human beings.  But these poor folks in the congregation gave men the same faith they gave God, and ended up getting burned.  And it works in the opposite direction, good leaders trust a congregation not to turn on them, and get burned.

I understand the value of walking by faith, and I have faith in God.  Just not men.

I also feel I should point out that I know I am not perfect, and have also made many mistakes in my life in reference to my church experience.


----------



## JB0704

gtparts said:


> You know as well as I do, that if one person interacts with another to any significant degree, one will eventually disappoint the other. It is true of all relationships that go beyond the superficial. Matthew 5 (among other things) calls us to be peacemakers, not peacekeepers. Peace can be kept by terminating a relationship that is experiencing stress.... you simply take a different direction that prevents you from "rubbing up" against the other party or them "rubbing up" on you. But, being a peacemaker requires us to constantly rethink our attitudes towards others.
> 
> It is then that peacemaking becomes difficult, for we must model Christ in all we say and do. Jesus spoke and different people heard different things. One found the words compelling, drawing him/her closer to God and His kingdom. Another found the words annoying or offensive, and quickly departed. Some loved the truth and what is bestowed when we allow the truth into our lives. Others hate the truth because it exposes their sin, which they have already justified in their own minds. Unfortunately, this is true in a secular setting, but even more so when it is manifested among believers.
> 
> So, whats a guy to do? Well, sometimes God calls us to stand our ground in His righteousness for the benefit of others... as well as ourselves. Other times, He grants us permission, even pushes us, to move on. It is always for the best. God never wants us to receive less than His best. But, He never desires for us to go it alone. He has every intention to bless you through the church and to bless the church through you. You will never receive the full blessing "standing on the outside" and the church will remain less than God intended by your absence. I think both of those situations break His heart.



GT, I really appreciate your comments on this thread.  I also enjoyed your thoughts here in reference to being a peacemaker.  I had not considered this in the past.

As far as God using me to be a blessing, well, I try.  I could do more, but I do give a lot of effort to service.  Just not in the traditional setting.  I did not walk away from faith, or God, just the local church.  Well, I tried to walk away from God when I was yonger.  Eventually, I learned that everything I had always blamed on God was actually the fault of myself or other people.  And, as pointed out in the last post, I know a lot of my experience was my fault.  I have pride, and tend to think I recognize character in people.  I am often wrong, and in that, am guilty of being judgmental.  

But it is not faith I left.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.


----------



## centerpin fan

SkeeterEater said:


> "If your scared go to church"
> 
> Snoop Dog



You left out the profanity.


----------



## centerpin fan

thedeacon said:


> A lady told me one time that she didn't attend services on Wednesday night because the bible didn't say she had to.
> 
> It bothers me when someone doesn't go to Church because they say they don't get anything out of it. I do agree there is a part on the Church that should make the services as good as possible but it is also true that if Jesus himself was preaching there would be at least one person that didn't like the sermon and at least one that would be offended by some part of the sermon.
> 
> We have gotten the idea the Churches, ministers, Worship Leaders, Elders, Deacons, Bible School teachers etc main job is to spoon feed us the Gospel.
> 
> NOT SO. We should never leave our home to go to worship God with our brothers and sisters thinking only about what we will get out of the service.
> 
> We should go with the attitude of what can we attribute to the worship service.
> 
> I have never been in a situation where I couldn't get anything out of a lesson or a sermon.
> 
> What can I add to a worship should always be the question on our minds not what can they do for me. I am here sup me before I starve to death.
> 
> Atteding the services is probably the very least thing you could do to serve God, if you won't do the least thing, do you think you can be depending on to do great things.
> 
> Just my thoughts, God bless



Excellent.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> 1 John 4
> 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.



F1, the scripture is relevant, for sure.  I don't hate anybody.  Fear, well, yes.  I could work on that.  But I don't claim to love everybody either, which is probably a natural byproduct of fear.  Fear and hate are two different emotions.


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Excellent.



Not to lump TheDeacon in with the crowd in question, or you for that matter, but this remindes me of something......

This is what I get reminded of when I start seeing a bunch of "amens" coming from the choir.  It is my fault for putting that on you.  But it is what I deal with when I think of going to church.

At my last church when they would fire folks (and they did so regularly, I guess to demand loyalty of the staff who remain), without warning or counseling, for "not being on board with the pastors vision," they (the remaining "staff" and all of their friends) would slap each other on the backs as if they had done a great thing for God.  In truth, they were damaging "the body," but were so certain they were on "team God."  One of these men getting fired was a friend of mine, and a very good man. Totally blindsided.  He had a family to feed, but was never counseled or warned. 

He was terminated based on gossip (somebody claimed he was not "on board" anymore) which nobody ever asked him to respond to, not even the elders who were nothing more than an affirmation committee and were handpicked by the head pastor.  He was never asked for his side of the story.  Gossip, failing to practice biblical conflict resolution.

But hey, they were "protecting the vision."  Nobody knows to this day who or what they were protecting it from (and yes, I got all sides of the story).

Hundreds left the church, and many are like me now, without a home.  Those who remain "just have faith that God is leading the leaders."


----------



## thedeacon

formula1 said:


> Deacon,
> 
> In light of your wisdom, I offer this scripture for all of us to hear, hopefully, with Spirit ears.  God Bless!
> 
> Ephesians 4:28
> Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need.




Excellant verse.


----------



## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> Right.  But does this require a local body?  I believe the evidence is "no."



You're not getting that "evidence" from God's word.
I'd be afraid its coming from my prideful heart.


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> You're not getting that "evidence" from God's word.
> I'd be afraid its coming from my prideful heart.



Needing a local body to do good work with my hands and help those in need?  No, Mr. Ronnie, I think we can do all these things without a local body, and that is not pride, it is observation.  

A local body has benefits, no doubt, but many (not all) of these are accomplishable outside the body with additional effort for the willing.

I do have pride, though.  Another reason why I tend not to judge anybody because I know that I also can be judged similarly according to my shortcomings.  I think thats how that works anyway.


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> You're not getting that "evidence" from God's word.
> I'd be afraid its coming from my prideful heart.



I believe this is the first time you have jumped in on this thread.  If you don't mind, then, could you make a Biblical case for mandatory attendance?  I believe the overall thinking thus far has been that it is not mandatory, but beneficial.

If it is not mandatory, then can a believer still accomplish the things he is required to do without subjecting himself or his family to all the "junk."  Because, by not going to church, you are guaranteed to avoid the mess.  You might avoid it if you "find the right one."  There is a risk involved in attendance.


----------



## thedeacon

I appreciate your comments, and agree with much of it. A few thoughts.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedeacon  
It bothers me when someone doesn't go to Church because they say they don't get anything out of it.......We have gotten the idea the Churches, ministers, Worship Leaders, Elders, Deacons, Bible School teachers etc main job is to spoon feed us the Gospel.
I agree, but this is one of my points of contention....that church has become entertainment. I have seen congregations sit and let bad things happen because they were entertained. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thedeacon  
We should go with the attitude of what can we attribute to the worship service.
not allowed This assumes the "average Joe's" contributions are welcome. Often, "sinners" are to serve (even though we all are), untalented people are not allowed to play / sing / pray. If a church calls on different folks to pray (many "contemporary" churches have done away with this practice) those who pray are judged according to the merit of their prayer....which I find ridiculous. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thedeacon  
Attending the services is probably the very least thing you could do to serve God, if you won't do the least thing, do you think you can be depending on to do great things.
But there are two ways of looking at this. Currently, it requires a lot more effort on my part to serve. I accomplish this goal, but I have to be proactive. Allowing "church" to be my "service" would take a lot of the effort from me. I find my current practice much more rewarding than my previous efforts in church because it requires a much more giving attitude, and more dedication. 




I can see that this is probably going to be my longest post ever, I don’t like long post because most people just scan over the long one’s and stick to the short, so bare with me today.

I missed the worship services this Sunday morning and on Sunday night, in fact I have missed more since this past May than I have since being a Christian “almost fifty years”.   It’s like missing a family reunion. Every time we meet involves hugging, kissing, laughing, talking, praying, studying teaching and truly loving one another. I NEVER ATTEND BECAUSE IT IS A COMMAND.I attend because I love God and want to please him.
It’s a time for our young people to come together to be shown (not told) how they should conduct themselves in a Christian manner. It’s a time for everyone to come together in unity of spirit to bring glory to God and to commune with him.
What does the bible say about Attendance?
Matthew 6:33
New International Version (NIV)
33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. 
Hebrews 10:25-26
New International Version (NIV)
25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. 
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 
Titus 3 
New King James Version (NKJV)
Titus 3
Graces of the Heirs of Grace
1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, 
Psalms 1


The Righteous and the Ungodly
1 	Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
	nor standeth in the way of sinners,
nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.


2 	But his delight is in the law of the LORD;
	and in his law doth he meditate day and night.






You said   
“This assumes the "average Joe's" contributions are welcome. Often, "sinners" are to serve (even though we all are), untalented people are not allowed to play / sing / pray.”
There is no such thing as an untalented person, in the Lord. Every person has a talent, some people have not found theirs yet but its there. If I found a perfect Church I would not be allowed to attend.
 You said,
“Currently, it requires a lot more effort on my part to serve. I accomplish this goal, but I have to be proactive.”
It takes a lot of effort on all our parts but it all boils down to what is important to us. It takes must less effort for me to attend worship services than it does to just get ready to go fishing not even thinking of the fishing trip in itself. Attending the services is a big part in the serving part of our lives.
We do not meet on Sunday morning with a bunch of perfect people. Far from it. If something is going on that I don’t think is right I try to change it. BUT IT ALWAYS HAS TO BE DONE WITH LOVE.
If I could not change it I would look for another place to worship, and that has happened.
Maybe you should seek a place that is better suited to you.
Every day I pray for wisdom, I pray that the Holy Spirit would bring me comfort from my physical and emotional pains and I pray for the Holy Spirit to give me understanding of God’s will for me. Without these three things I could not exist.
Brother, I pray the same for you, reach out to others, find the goodness and dismiss the weakness in others. 
In yourself attack the weakness and grow the goodness (strength).
If we want it God will provide. Sometimes we have problem recognizing the provisions that are sitting before us.
Draw strength from others, find your talents and grow them.
There is much more I would like to say but it would possible be fruitless because of the length. 
I do pray for your peace of mind, if you want to PM me I will respond. Good luck and God bless you in your search and thank you for sharing your honest feelings.


----------



## SkeeterEater

I'm going fishing or hunting on Sunday. God wants me to.


----------



## JB0704

Thanks Deacon, I did read the whole thing.  Much wisdom, and it is appreciated.  Instead of counter-pointing, I am going to leave it be.  I recognize that you are sincere and want to help.  I apologize if I come across as stubborn.

I truly mean this: I wish I could see Church the way you describe seeing it.


----------



## hawglips

> Originally Posted by hawglips
> But to gather with the believers and worship and remember what Christ has done for us, and to be uplifted and encouraged and strengthened to walk in His paths, is a wonderful blessing that can't quite be duplicated outside of the physical place of worship.





JB0704 said:


> I am glad you enjoy church.  The statement above, do you mean that universally or personally?
> 
> I find that it is moments of solitude are when I feel the most uplifted spiritualy.



To me, it's like a bed of hot, glowing coals.  If you keep them together, they stay hot and glowing for some time, and draw from the heat of the others.  But when you separate them so that their heat generating capabilities are limited to their own, they cool off and die quickly.

I can often have moments of intense spirituality when I'm alone.   Prayer, meditation, soul-searching, scripture learning, etc are things I get the most out of when alone.

But I can't serve others unless I interact with them.  And I can't obey the commandments involving relationships unless I am around others.  And I can't be taught or edified by the words and examples of others when on my own.


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## thedeacon

JB0704 said:


> Thanks Deacon, I did read the whole thing.  Much wisdom, and it is appreciated.  Instead of counter-pointing, I am going to leave it be.  I recognize that you are sincere and want to help.  I apologize if I come across as stubborn.
> 
> I truly mean this: I wish I could see Church the way you describe seeing it.



You do not come across as stubborn at all and there is no need for an apology. Just trust in God, there you will find your answer.


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## Huntinfool

> I truly mean this: I wish I could see Church the way you describe seeing it.



You've had bad experiences with past churches.

What you posted, though, is impossible if you refuse to go to church.  You're stuck with those bad experiences for the rest of your life if you don't go back.  That, for you, would be one of the possible benefits.  You'd get to see the body of Christ as it is in many cases and as it should be.

I'm seeing it kind of like having an aversion to cole slaw because one time you got sick from a bad batch.  It's really good....but since you had a bad experience, you'll never know because you refuse to try it again.


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## JB0704

hawglips said:


> To me, it's like a bed of hot, glowing coals.  If you keep them together, they stay hot and glowing for some time, and draw from the heat of the others.  But when you separate them so that their heat generating capabilities are limited to their own, they cool off and die quickly.



Good analogy, and this is somewhat applicable to my old small group I described previously.  As we went our separate ways, most of us remained dedicated to the faith.  A few of us, however, "fell off the wagon."  It was discouraging to see, and I have wondered what might have happened if we had done a better job.   

I do recognize what you are describing, about the group being hotter together, but have only ever seen it in that small group, never in an organized church.  This could be my short-comings combined with other things.  I wasn't raised to interact with God communally, instead, faith was a private matter even though, as a kid, I had to go to Church and sit on the family pew....no children's church for me.  Now, I have rejected most of my childhood teachings, but think this one might have part in my inability to become part of a whole local "body."


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I'm seeing it kind of like having an aversion to cole slaw because one time you got sick from a bad batch.  It's really good....but since you had a bad experience, you'll never know because you refuse to try it again.



More like: "every time I eat cole slaw I get sick!"

I follow you, but it is not a one time experience.  I know what you mean, I can't eat chicken casserole because I got horribly ill from it once.


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## Huntinfool

Cole slaw for me....that's why I used it.  


Like I said.  Leave the status quo and you're stuck with those bad experiences and bad impressions of what most believe the body of Christ is on earth...for the rest of your life.

Do your homework.  Take your time.  Give it one more try and you can erase all that bad stuff and find out what it's really supposed to be like.

Honestly, if the leadership in your past churches was really as bad as you describe it, I'm surprised that you didn't know their character before you got that deep in the middle of it.  People can fool you for a little while.  But their character will show if you give them a little time.


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## Huntinfool

Oh, and don't let thedeacon lie to ya....



....you're as stubborn as the day is long!  Welcome to the club.


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## Ronnie T

In all my life I've never met a person who was better off by removing themselves from Christ's church (as established by Christ and the apostles).
Oh man, I could tell you some stories.

1.  Some people leave a particular church because there are things there that causes their spirit unrest.  And it's usually wise to leave and find a church family that feels right.

2.  Some people leave a particular church because they disagree with church leadership and they're such a prideful person that they can fatham any church leadership disagreeing with them, and being right!  "It's my way or the highway" attitude.

3.  I've known people who left the church because a pew was removed from the sanctuary without their knowledge.  Never returned to church again, the rest of their life!

4.  I knew someone who left the church because they weren't nominated for an eldership position, and they thought they deserved it.  They actually attempted to begin their own church in their home, gathering in many of their friends and supporters.  It lasted a few months and everyone eventually found a church to worship in and allowed the selfish bitterness to go it's way.

5.  I've known of preacher's being fired during a business meeting and told they needed to be out of their church provided home within 14 days.

6.  I've had Lord's days when 15 people would tell me what a great sermon it was and how it would inspire them to greater devotion; and suddenly the 16th person would tell me 'it's the worst sermon I've ever heard'.  "You're just not a very good preacher".

7.  I've often had personal relationships with a person or two at church that wasn't the greatest in the world.  People that I knew didn't like me very much.  People who had "had words" with me in the past.  But God's kinda love says that I love them anyway.  I bend over backwards to be kind and gracious to them.  I have to move beyond what was said or done in the past.  I have to place myself in their position..... hoping they will eventually forgive anything I might have done, just as people have had to forgive my shortcomings in the past and present.

8.  But as a Christian, I am drawn to the church.  I'm pulled to that little lady who sits near the front that has grown accustomed to giving me a neck hung each time we see each other.
I'm drawn to that couple that I know are having difficulties in life but are hanging on by a thread.
I'm drawn to that old, elderly man who's forgotten more about doing good than I ever hoped to be able to share.
I'm drawn to those who love me no matter what.  No matter what.

9.  The Lord's church is where you'll always find sinners and forgivers.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Honestly, if the leadership in your past churches was really as bad as you describe it, I'm surprised that you didn't know their character before you got that deep in the middle of it.  People can fool you for a little while.  But their character will show if you give them a little time.



It was.

But, when I went to that church, the main area was less relevant for me than the areas I was heavily involved with serving in, so I only knew the leadership vaguely.  As my interaction with the church evolved, I became more aware of the leadership, and was not at all impressed.  The closer I got, the less I liked.  But, I was told to "love it or leave it."  The pastor said this from the stage.  I tried to discreetly discuss things with members of leadership, but was told that I was "harming unity" by questioning the leaders.  I did not gossip or backstab.  I handled the conflict Biblically.

After they re-hired the adulterer in the name of reconcilliation, and continued to fire good people for "not being on board" without any effort at reconiclliation, I determined that it was nothing more than a business.  Biblical principles only applied when convenient, and could be spun when not (such as the elders being "advisors" to the head pastor).  They were packaging and selling a free-product.

I initially visited other churches, but saw many of the same characteristics which were quite disturbing.  I recognized that I would never  be nothing but a back-pew cynic if I continued in Church, and it would pull me farther from God.  So I just threw in the towel.


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> In all my life I've never met a person who was better off by removing themselves from Christ's church (as established by Christ and the apostles).



Ronnie, I have seen similar stuff, and am impressed by your devotion to Church in light of all that non-sense.  Particularly since you are in the ministry, and are subjected to the worst of it.

As far as the above quote is concerned, this is another point of contention.

Is what we often have really the "body" established by Jesus and the apostles?  I know you can answer for your church, but let's talk more broadly.  I think of what I witnessed, and unless they were both called church, I would not be able to find many similarities between it and the NT church, particularly the most recent "mega-church" I was a part of.

When I read the NT I see a community of believers, not a weekly gathering.  I read about a body dedicated to a cause and each other, but have only witnessed a group that tears each other apart.

As far as the preacher who got fired and asked to leave his house, I bet the men who made that decision were awfully proud of themselves thinking they had stood for righteousness.  That bothers me.


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## Ronnie T

Congregations need to be very careful and thoughtful of who they place into positions of leadership.
All decisions have to be made as Christ would have them be made.
And leadership doesn't take the voice of the church family away.
Look at the church in Jerusalem.  That church, as a whole, was often involved and included in making decisions.

I think you need to wipe that last church you were a part of from your memory and just find a congregation to enjoy life in Christ.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> ... by not going to church, you are guaranteed to avoid the mess.



Yes, but you'll miss out on the all the "good stuff", too:  no Communion, no fellowship with other believers, no singing, no message from God's word, etc.


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## Ronnie T

Yes, a lot of things have changed since the first century.
Then, the church depended on each other for survival.  And they were continually involved in studying and learning about their new Lord together.  They met together everyday.  The Lord's day was a specific day that they came together to participate in the Lord's supper and give as prospered.

In some parts of the world, the church still functions in the same way.  The church (people) has to depend on each other for survival.

Not so in America.  We often consider ourselves to be the ideal.... but we probably are not.  That group that has been gathered together by missionaries in some jungle some place is probably the ideal.  But we are what we are.

Our society requires that we work tirelessly five, or six, or even seven days a week.  We require airconditioning!!!  And padded seats.  And a place for our children to be during worship time.

We see each other "officially" three times a week.  Although most only once a week.  We develop 'groups' within the church, and we associate with them in our personal life, if we have time to associate outside the family.
Many spend all their time with children, grand children, and parents.  No time for church people.

You'll be surprised, but my favorite time is Wednesday night.  That's when we can all get together and everyone read and discuss God's word together.  We might not all agree on each verse, but that isn't required in my church family.  Those people who are there on Wednesday night, I know just about everything there is to know about them.  There are no secrets.  And they me.  It is the most wonderful experience imaginable.

Leadership problems?  No.  We deal with things as they occur.  No secrets.  No hidden agendas.  We only demand one thing..... a Christ-like attitude in all things.
There are many churches just like this in America.  I expect that most are.  I sure pray that they are.

But leaders make mistakes.  In the Bible, leaders always made mistakes.  In the Bible, churches always had problems.  That's why most of the letters were written.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if megachurches don't function more as a business than as a church.  I have nothing to base that on, but I can see the need to always be thinking about keeping the church "machine" afloat.


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## THREEJAYS

Ronnie T said:


> Yes, a lot of things have changed since the first century.
> Then, the church depended on each other for survival.  And they were continually involved in studying and learning about their new Lord together.  They met together everyday.  The Lord's day was a specific day that they came together to participate in the Lord's supper and give as prospered.
> 
> In some parts of the world, the church still functions in the same way.  The church (people) has to depend on each other for survival.
> 
> Not so in America.  We often consider ourselves to be the ideal.... but we probably are not.  That group that has been gathered together by missionaries in some jungle some place is probably the ideal.  But we are what we are.
> 
> Our society requires that we work tirelessly five, or six, or even seven days a week.  We require airconditioning!!!  And padded seats.  And a place for our children to be during worship time.
> 
> We see each other "officially" three times a week.  Although most only once a week.  We develop 'groups' within the church, and we associate with them in our personal life, if we have time to associate outside the family.
> Many spend all their time with children, grand children, and parents.  No time for church people.
> 
> You'll be surprised, but my favorite time is Wednesday night.  That's when we can all get together and everyone read and discuss God's word together.  We might not all agree on each verse, but that isn't required in my church family.  Those people who are there on Wednesday night, I know just about everything there is to know about them.  There are no secrets.  And they me.  It is the most wonderful experience imaginable.
> 
> Leadership problems?  No.  We deal with things as they occur.  No secrets.  No hidden agendas.  We only demand one thing..... a Christ-like attitude in all things.
> There are many churches just like this in America.  I expect that most are.  I sure pray that they are.
> 
> But leaders make mistakes.  In the Bible, leaders always made mistakes.  In the Bible, churches always had problems.  That's why most of the letters were written.
> 
> I wouldn't be at all surprised if megachurches don't function more as a business than as a church.  I have nothing to base that on, but I can see the need to always be thinking about keeping the church "machine" afloat.



Agreed
 Wed. is my favorite nite for almost the same reasons.If folks come wed. you can almost be assured they are serious about a relationship with Jesus and his body.I also know many can't because of work,just had to add that.One more thing , life is short for all and we will find out what Jesus thinks quicker than we might beleive.


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## thedeacon

I am more concerned about why a person chooses not to attend services than that they don't.

There was a time when I would condemn a person for taking a Sunday to go hunting. Today I wouldn't do that.

When a person does not attend all the services and seems to have a problem that concerns me. The reason may seem trivial to me but to them it must not be. There is where love and prayer should come into the picture.

Whatever we do must come with an attitude, and it does, either good or bad. It is up to us to try to understand why, sometimes the reason is so rediculas it is inconceivable and we have to dismiss it or just wipe our feet but never let it leave our prayers.

I look at things that have happened in the past and realize that I passed up oppertunities to do better, its left up to me to use that new found wisdom to do things differant today.

Attendance is not the only thing that is affected here. We are supposed to give our God our very best service possible. That means in giving, prayer, serving our fellow man, teaching our fellow man, studying so we are better equiped and above all morning for our fellow man that is suffering the weakness of sin.

Lack of service is not good but it is worse to do something that causes someone to grow weak.

I pray that my influance will behoove people to attend worship services instead of hinder. The fields are ripe for harvest, sometimes I think we had much rather sow and reap and never think we need to water and fertilize the crop.

Just my thoughts, God bless.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Like I said.  Leave the status quo and you're stuck with those bad experiences and bad impressions of what most believe the body of Christ is on earth...for the rest of your life.



I know this thread was buried a while ago, but I came across something relevant......

This is a quote from a new church's "set values" that they call "The Code:"

"We are united under the visionary – We are built on the vision that God has given Pastor Gary. We will aggressively defend our unity and his vision." 


http://www.garylambonline.com/?p=5468

Note, "His Vision" is in reference to pastor Gary, not God.


I can't tell you how often I see that "aggressively defend our unity" junk.  That is another way of saying "follow or leave."  This is what EVERY modern church I have vistited or been a part of believes.


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## Huntinfool

> I can't tell you how often I see that "aggressively defend our unity" junk.




Unity is awefully important in the body of Christ.  Jesus himself asked the Father for unity of those he was about to leave behind three times in one prayer.  David wrote about it before that.

Unified behind and blindly committed to a person is potentially dangerous.  I agree with you.  But unity of the body is very important for many reasons.  Probably the most important is so that we send a clear message to the world so as to confirm who Christ truly is....the son of God and part of the Trinity.  I suppose there is a fine line there.  Hypocrisy and blind following of a pastor who is clearly doing unbiblical things are what corrupts that message.  Christ knew that, if the church wasn't unified, the world would view that as an indictment on him and who he is.




_	“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
(John 17:20-21 ESV)_


_	I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
(John 17:23 ESV)_


_ Behold, how good and pleasant it is
		when brothers dwell in unity!	It is like the precious oil on the head,
		running down on the beard,
	on the beard of Aaron,
		running down on the collar of his robes!
	It is like the dew of Hermon,
		which falls on the mountains of Zion!
	For there the LORD has commanded the blessing,
		life forevermore.
(Psalm 133 ESV)_
_	Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
(John 17:11 ESV)_


_	Finally, all of you, have unity of mind, sympathy, brotherly love, a tender heart, and a humble mind.
(1 Peter 3:8 ESV)_


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## rjcruiser

Unity is important.  Unity amongst the body...amongst the elders....etc etc.

But, that unity is to be based on the Bible...not the pastor.  The pastor should be on the same level as the elders when it comes to decisions/authority.

I've seen many churches splintered because the Pastor thought he was above all others and there were plenty of sheeple to follow.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> This is what EVERY modern church I have vistited or been a part of believes.



Any football/baseball/basketball coach wants players who are "down with the program".  The coach/pastor analogy is not perfect, but the point is valid.  Unity is important to any organization.  If you can't be unified with the group, it's best for everybody involved to part ways.


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## Huntinfool

I went back and read pieces of that blog because I was curious about the "thank God for second chances" thing.  Interestingly enough JB, the guy you quoted started that church because he had to leave his last one because of an affair.  He was since divorce and is now married to (from what I can tell from his blog) the woman he was having the affair with.  

Was caught in an affair, divorced, re-married and started a new church all in one year.  Pretty solid.

I'm not judging the man or his actions or his heart now....people can and do truly turn from things when their eyes are opened.  What I'm saying is that this guy is probably not the most stable foundation for a church a year after an affair and a divorce.

Anyone who would join up and pledge stiff-necked allegiance to this "vision" is probably questionable in their sanity IMO.  If every church you visited believes what you posted, you've got the worst luck in the entire world and I wouldn't want to stand next to you in a lightning storm.

What you've experienced and what this guy is doing are by far the exception in today's churches.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I'm not judging the man or his actions or his heart now....people can and do truly turn from things when their eyes are opened.  What I'm saying is that this guy is probably not the most stable foundation for a church a year after an affair and a divorce.
> 
> Anyone who would join up and pledge stiff-necked allegiance to this "vision" is probably questionable in their sanity IMO.  If every church you visited believes what you posted, you've got the worst luck in the entire world and I wouldn't want to stand next to you in a lightning storm.



Hey guys, I appreciate the calm responses, and the scripture.  I haven't been able to jump back in because of work, etc.  but....

HF, I know this fella's story.  I read his blog regularly because he has that "hippie Christian" flair I am so fond of.  I also love his story of redemption.  The problem is that the sentence I quoted is indicative of the trend in I have seen in churches, and it is quite damaging to those who think for themselves.

Just so you follow me, I have seen good people get very hurt in the name of "agressively defending unity" and the "pastor's vision."  What this does is set the pastor up as a "mini-pope."  Either you follow his "vision" or leave.  There is no room for "family stuff."  

Its not that I want to argue amongst the believers.  Its that I believe everybody in the body has a role, and nobody is more important than anybody else.  Their must be a mechanism to keep Biblical constraints, otherwise, you are just supporting one  man's "Jesus business."  This attitude does nothing but create spiritual lemmings.  Nobody wants to be cast out from their "church home."  So, they stick their heads in the sand and do nothing when good folks are hurt in the name of Jesus, or when God's money is spent unwisely.

If you read between the lines, it basically says the head pastor gets a vision from God.  So, in such a circumstance, when you disagree, the implication is that you are arguing with God.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> Any football/baseball/basketball coach wants players who are "down with the program".  The coach/pastor analogy is not perfect, but the point is valid.  Unity is important to any organization.  If you can't be unified with the group, it's best for everybody involved to part ways.



I appreciate the analogy, and yes, I do see the need for "team players."  This is different, because it is not First Baptist of Wherever v. United Methodist Folks.  It is Christians.  That's it.

In church, what is "the program?"  Is it one man's wishes (vision), or is it the gospel?  I think the program is written and available and we no longer have prophets receiving visions from God.


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> But, that unity is to be based on the Bible...not the pastor.  The pastor should be on the same level as the elders when it comes to decisions/authority.
> 
> I've seen many churches splintered because the Pastor thought he was above all others and there were plenty of sheeple to follow.




Exactly.  Sheeple is what this modern trend produces.  Folks who think for themselves need not enter.  Apparently God is giving "visions" to the pastor, and that is all anybody needs.


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> This is what EVERY modern church I have vistited or been a part of believes.



JB, please believe that I am not trying to evoke any particular reaction or stir anything up when I say that there has just got to be something wrong here.  

As I recall from things I have read here on the forum, and that is a small part of what is available, several have pointed out that they have not had the same experience, or anything close to the same experience, that you have in trying to find a place to connect with a group of people with whom they can worship,study, and serve.  I know for sure that my understanding of scripture, and that which I have had occasion to teach at times, is not in full agreement with anyone I have known or read.  And, I have been led to change churches from time to time; but there has never been a time when that was brought about by hard feelings.  I still feel close to every congregation that I left; there is brotherly love in every case.  That is not to say that every church I visited was a fit, but the only long search was the first one.

Scripture is clear, we can only serve God as He desires when the whole body (eye, foot, hand, etc.) is working together.

It is painful to see your situation, but I am nontheless going to suggest that the only solution may be that you throw caution to the wind, bar no possible answers, and with all your mind and spirit (especially spirit) seek to discover why no group of believers is acceptable to you.


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## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> It is painful to see your situation, but I am nontheless going to suggest that the only solution may be that you throw caution to the wind, bar no possible answers, and with all your mind and spirit (especially spirit) seek to discover why no group of believers is acceptable to you.



HP, while I understand your intent is to make me look in the mirror, I have to wonder why the finger is pointed at me.  That is the way it often is in systems where group think is not only the norm, but demanded.  I have noticed that in many (not all) Christian circles the standard is to assimilate.  Yes, I understand unity, but there are times when we need to stand up for what we believe in.  I currently feel that the system is broke.  

I have several preacher friends who might agree with you.  While I remain their friends, we also remain in disagreement on a few topics.  In reference to unity, the second I (or anybody else) says "maybe we shouldn't refinance the building and spend our savings on depreciating junk" I am officially out of of unity, and "aggressively defended against."  Or, when I say "did you go to the man and address your concerns before you fired him, as the Bible suggests?"  Nope, out of line.  

Is there a biblical precedent for a Head Pastor to claim to be a "visionary" which must be followed? 

I have always found an interest in Christian's ability to turn an argument around for the sake of maintaining the status quo.  We can either sit in a congregation and support things we don't believe in, or we can throw in the towel.  

Trying to be a servant where you see God's money being flushed down the toilet makes me want to vomit.  Watching men put their personal wishes on par with Biblical precedent has a similar effect.  Watching good people get hurt in the name of Jesus bothers me.  

These three items, I can't just sit and watch, and I refuse to be a "bad apple," and stir the pot.  Not my style.  I tried very hard to be a model congregant.  I have many friends who overlook this stuff and just "love the church and all it's warts."  I am not currently wired in such a way.  At the end of the day, if I support an organization I want to know that they actually care about the people, or is their "vision" the objective.

I have never claimed to be perfect, not even close.  I am about as big a spiritual goofball as you can find.  But, I think a church should at least try to get it right, and not according to a "visionary."


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## hummerpoo

JB, Acts 15 bothered me for years.  I could not understand Paul's acceptance of James' decision, with which he had to disagree.  Had he not put political expediency ahead of the revealed principle?  A couple of months ago I was studying another passage that I knew well, but with which I was never completely comfortable, Romans 14.  My understanding was much improved when I was led to look at Acts 15 in view of Romans 14.  I doubt that Paul viewed himself as standing in the more mature or less mature position at the council, just in a different position.  I now believe that it was not politcal expediency, but ecumenism that guided his acceptance.

There are certainly limits within the essential doctrine of scripture, but they were not crossed at the Council at Jerusalem.  I now hold a more ecumenical view, having come to understand both Acts 15 and Romans 14 from the paramount view of brotherly love (Jn. 13:34, 35).


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## ronpasley

Randy said:


> The problem with that is Sunday is not the sabbath.  The sabbath is the last day on the week, which is Saturday.  So I go every day.



The sabbath is everyday


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## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> I have thought about starting this thread for a while, and have been torn about whether or not it was a good idea.  I have mentioned to several that I would, but am going to try and find an angle to where I can’t be accused of attacking the faith, so, here is my best try……….
> 
> Y'all know I don't go, but I don't want anybody to think this is an effort to drive folks away.  It is an effort for me to gather information from you.
> 
> Oh, and before anybody says "why ask," let me answer that: because I want your (all who read) opinion and view of what the Bible says on this topic.
> 
> 1. What is the Biblical case for mandatory Church attendance by believers?
> 
> 2. What defines Church?  Or, what exactly is Church according to the Bible?  I know "body of Christ," but let's talk about the local Church, the one we say everybody should attend.



So, this thread has been going for a long time,,,,, 234 comments.
Has there been a concensus yet?
May a Christian become so selfcentered and idealistic that they might seperate themself from the formal gatherings of Christ's church??????


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> May a Christian become so selfcentered and idealistic that they might seperate themself from the formal gatherings of Christ's church??????



Ronnie, I can only assume I am the self centered and idealistic one you are talking about, and honestly, I tend to view you as a better person than that.  

Is there ever a time when a Christian can say "I don't think this is what God had in mind."  

What gets me is that Christians tend to want all Christians in church, but once they get there, they want them to be "in unity" or find another church.  What the church is mandating is group think, and it is percieved as a negative in all contexts but this one. 

Call me idealistic, but are you not also idealistic every Sunday when you preach? Don't you try to stay "true to the word of God?"  How 'bout the rest of the folks on here who have tried to convince me that I am better off in church, are they not also idealistic?  The problem is that idealism is a negative when it does not line up with your (generic, not specific) personal ideals.  When we quit striving for the "ideal" we end up getting what we have, and nothing ever changes.


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## Ronnie T

I'm not nearly as good a person as you might think.
But I'm a better person because God gave me Christ's church to live in, and grow with, and serve Him through.
There is nothing from Jesus' teachings or the written inspired words of the apostles that would cause me to believe the world would be better off without the organized church and it's need to be together and meet together.

The OP is actually asking: "is the church so bad that it's organizations and comings together should be done away with."
I say, if it isn't good enough for one person it shouldn't be good enough for anyone.


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> The OP is actually asking: "is the church so bad that it's organizations and comings together should be done away with."
> I say, if it isn't good enough for one person it shouldn't be good enough for anyone.



I wrote the OP.

If you are sick and need medicine, does taking a fake pill do any good other than to say "I took something?"

So, I can assume you believe it would be better to go to a church and follow some fella's vision and call it my "church home" than to find other avenues to serve (and I do)?

And there is another way of looking at this Ronnie, if everybody stood up and said "enough" maybe some of the ills of the modern church could be addressed. 

Why would a local church want a guy like me anyway?  To serve, to give?  Am I no longer "family" if I think differently than the pastor?

What I have found in church is that my money is always good there, but my thoughts are not welcome.


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## Ronnie T

The church was established, not built with hammer and nail.
From the very beginning the church meet together.
Most all of the NT Gospel was addressed to a particular church.  One church was even told, "once you've read this please make sure it's read to the other churches".
It was always intended that Christians would meet together.  Every day but especially on the Lord's day.  Christians want to be with other Christians.

The church hasn't changed.  
Why would a Christian not want to go and associate and worship with other Christian, unless that person didn't believe the others were good enough?
Really, is there another answer?
And how does Christ feel about a person not wanting to associate with His body, and not join with other Christians as was done in the early church?


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Christians want to be with other Christians.



Amen!!


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## StriperAddict

Ronnie T said:


> The church _was begun with hammer and nail_ driven into the One who loved us so much He couldn't not call us His own body.



Fixed it for ya.


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## Ronnie T

StriperAddict said:


> Fixed it for ya.



The church isn't a building and it isn't any inanimate object.  The church is the body of believers.  Those who've answered the call of Jesus Christ.  Called together to work together as they serve their Savior while here in this physical world.


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> The church isn't a building and it isn't any inanimate object.  The church is the body of believers.  Those who've answered the call of Jesus Christ.  Called together to work together as they serve their Savior while here in this physical world.



Well then, I am good.  I just don't go to the Sunday gatherings.

I associate with lots of Christians, much of that association has been detailed in this thread (which is why I am left scratching my head at your points in reference to me not wanting to associate with other believers.....'cause I do).

Now, am I a quitter or am I standing for something.  Which side of 2 Timothy 4:3-7 am I really on, Ronnie.  Which side is everybody who supports organizations described in those passages on?


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## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> Well then, I am good.  I just don't go to the Sunday gatherings.
> 
> I associate with lots of Christians, much of that association has been detailed in this thread (which is why I am left scratching my head at your points in reference to me not wanting to associate with other believers.....'cause I do).
> 
> Now, am I a quitter or am I standing for something.  Which side of 2 Timothy 4:3-7 am I really on, Ronnie.  Which side is everybody who supports organizations described in those passages on?



I don't know which side of 2Tim 4:3-7 you're on.  But I know where Paul and Timothy were?  Timmy was involved in strengthening up established churches.  Seeing that each church was established and organized according to the dictates the Holy Spirit had given to Paul and the others.  The establishment of good, qualified elders in each individual church.
And Paul warned Tim to be strong in conviction of truth to the revealed Gospel.  To not allow himself to be affected by some of the errors that were being taught, but rather correct them.

But neither of them ever once insinuated that one single Christian should seperate themselves from a local congregation.  They assembled each Lord's day for the purpose of "participating" in taking the Lord's supper together.  It was as act that "brought Christians together" in Jesus Christ.

There are many who claim Christianity but choose to stay separate from Christ's visible church organization.
In these times we live in people are determined to do things exactly the way "they" want to do them.  "No one tells them nuthin"!  And I say go-for-it.  But it cannot be legitimized from the scripture.

We will each stand or fall by God's righteousness.  I certainly don't judge you.  I gave up judging people's righteousness many many years ago.  God's glad I did.
But your subject cannot be legitimized scripturally.
Now, I'm gonna go see if I can catch a large-water-fresh-mouthed bass.  And I suggest everyone else do the same.     Peace.


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know which side of 2Tim 4:3-7 you're on.  But I know where Paul and Timothy were?  Timmy was involved in strengthening up established churches.  Seeing that each church was established and organized according to the dictates the Holy Spirit had given to Paul and the others.  The establishment of good, qualified elders in each individual church..



Two points.  One, I am not in their role, just a simple congregant.  Second, according to you, I am not qualified to be an elder, so my ability to institue any effective change is quite limited.

The "traditional" churches disqualify me from effecting change, and the "contemporary" churches all seem to follow a man (the "visionary).  I am left in a corner to just give money......would you want that?



Ronnie T said:


> And Paul warned Tim to be strong in conviction of truth to the revealed Gospel.  To not allow himself to be affected by some of the errors that were being taught, but rather correct them..



But, then there is the "unity" problem.  Try correcting a problem without being accused of being a "naysayer."  I have seen many people fired for this, and many congregants "run out" because they tried to "correct" things, even when they did so biblically.



Ronnie T said:


> But neither of them ever once insinuated that one single Christian should seperate themselves from a local congregation.  They assembled each Lord's day for the purpose of "participating" in taking the Lord's supper together.  It was as act that "brought Christians together" in Jesus Christ...



Now we are back to the beginning, what defines church?  I think a small group is much more similar to what the NT describes than the modern corporate structure.



Ronnie T said:


> There are many who claim Christianity but choose to stay separate from Christ's visible church organization.
> In these times we live in people are determined to do things exactly the way "they" want to do them.  "No one tells them nuthin"!  And I say go-for-it.  But it cannot be legitimized from the scripture.



I think you are taking this in a very different direction than it was intended to go.  This is not about personal authority.  But, I don't think any of you has proven my current practice as unbiblical.  Please, if you have time and are willing, review my previous comments describing my personal involvement with other believers.  Then, ask yourself if you would want me in your congregation.....I am pretty sure we can safely say "no."  In that sense, me lack of attendance is a "win-win."




Ronnie T said:


> Now, I'm gonna go see if I can catch a large-water-fresh-mouthed bass.  And I suggest everyone else do the same.     Peace.



Good luck!


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## 7 point

I was raised not going to church but we did pray before bed and always before a meal and always give thanks for what you have  I think church is something you have be ready to commit your self to to get the real message I grew up with some boys who were made every sunday to go to church and now that there grown dont go and live A not so good life.


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## thedeacon

Going to Church won't make you a Christian any more than sitting in a henhouse will make you a chicken. But!!!!!!!!

The Church is the body of Christ, I can't understand why anyone would think that being a working part of the Church would be a bad thing. In the past year I have "HAD"  to miss more assemblies of the saints than I have in forty years. I can't tell you how much I miss the love, unity, communion etc. that I get when I am with my sisters and brothers in christ.

Do I like all of them, not really, do I agree with all of them, not really, do I love all of them, absolutely, am I willing to put up with some of the  aggrivation, absolutely, if they will put up with me.

Throughout the bible God has taught unity in some form more often than any other thing. I love the unity of 

praying togather 
singing togather
praising God togather
laughing togather
crying togather
confessing togather
teaching togather
communing with God togather
togather, togather, togather

No one person can be an Island.

I believe with all my heart that God expects it of me.
Attending the services is the very least thing I can do for my God.


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## JB0704

thedeacon said:


> The Church is the body of Christ, I can't understand why anyone would think that being a working part of the Church would be a bad thing.



I think that would depend on the church wouldn't it?




thedeacon said:


> I can't tell you how much I miss the love, unity, communion etc. that I get when I am with my sisters and brothers in christ..



And I am sure you were missed as well.  What if you were not "the deacon," but an unworthy back-bencher like me, only good enough to give and work but nothing else? 



thedeacon said:


> Do I like all of them, not really, do I agree with all of them, not really, do I love all of them, absolutely, am I willing to put up with some of the  aggrivation, absolutely, if they will put up with me...



In my experience it is a one way street.  My beliefs, etc. must conform to the body, or go find another church.



thedeacon said:


> Attending the services is the very least thing I can do for my God.



Then it is what you should do.  But there are many other things a fella who is in my predicament can do as well.

I don't think church attendance glorifies God if the Church itself does not glorify God.


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## Ronnie T

In general terms, being biblically "qualified" to be a deacon, elder or pastor doesn't mean a person should be.  I've known some gentlemen who were biblically qualified for certain jobs but I would never give my blessing for it to happen because they were simply the wrong person for the job.

JB said:  "but an unworthy back-bencher like me, only good enough to give and work but nothing else?"
Those who give and work are the very backbone of the Lord's church.  Leader's come and go.
It is they who truly become a light unto the world....... and they often become good examples to church leaders.

I'm sure any church leader will agree with me.


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> JB said:  "but an unworthy back-bencher like me, only good enough to give and work but nothing else?"
> Those who give and work are the very backbone of the Lord's church.  Leader's come and go.
> It is they who truly become a light unto the world....... and they often become good examples to church leaders.



Now we are getting somewhere.

In my experience the "big givers" are listened to (because they finance the church), but the "small giver" who also works is the most easily discarded member.


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## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> Now we are getting somewhere.
> 
> In my experience the "big givers" are listened to (because they finance the church), but the "small giver" who also works is the most easily discarded member.



It is not my experience at all.

I'm now going to bow out if this discussion.
I'm afraid your personal view of church is way off kilter.


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## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> It is not my experience at all.
> 
> I'm now going to bow out if this discussion.
> I'm afraid your personal view of church is way off kilter.



My personal view?  Sorry Ronnie, but you are not informed enough to judge my personal view of church.  Plus, the thread was dead anyway until you took a shot at me saying I was self-centered and idealist (disregarding the fact that you have to be an idealist to be a Christian, unless you don't have ideals when you preach).

I like how so many on here have turned the entire debate around on me.  That is also my experience.  Instead of dealing with the problem, we deal with the person who points it out.  That way, nothing ever gets fixed and we get rid of all those troublesome folks who actually believe in things.

But, maybe I am an idealist.


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> My personal view?  Sorry Ronnie, but you are not informed enough to judge my personal view of church.  Plus, the thread was dead anyway until you took a shot at me saying I was self-centered and idealist (disregarding the fact that you have to be an idealist to be a Christian, unless you don't have ideals when you preach).
> 
> I like how so many on here have turned the entire debate around on me.  That is also my experience.  Instead of dealing with the problem, we deal with the person who points it out.  That way, nothing ever gets fixed and we get rid of all those troublesome folks who actually believe in things.
> 
> But, maybe I am an idealist.



I'm sorry to say this JB, but from my perspective, you wouldn't have it any other way.  Many have attempted to explore your concerns with you.


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## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> I'm sorry to say this JB, but from my perspective, you wouldn't have it any other way.  Many have attempted to explore your concerns with you.



Hmmmm, it seems to me that they have explored my role in it all, and you did the same.....somehow it is my problem. 

Again, as long as those who have concerns are pushed aside and out, and those who remain bury their head in the sand, the church will continue to have problems.

But, you are welcome to view it all as you see fit.


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> Hmmmm, it seems to me that they have explored my role in it all, and you did the same.....somehow it is my problem.
> 
> Again, as long as those who have concerns are pushed aside and out, and those who remain bury their head in the sand, the church will continue to have problems.
> 
> But, you are welcome to view it all as you see fit.



I'm going to depend on my memory here, and that is dangerous at best, so please correct any error on my part.

I don't believe that any fault that you have pointed to in the church has been denied.  What has been denied is that they are universal.  I also think that those faults will be found, either directly addressed or alluded to, as having existed in the churchs discussed in the NT.


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## JB0704

hummerpoo said:


> I don't believe that any fault that you have pointed to in the church has been denied.  What has been denied is that they are universal.  I also think that those faults will be found, either directly addressed or alluded to, as having existed in the churchs discussed in the NT.



Point taken.

But, then, what does a person who hates the idea of church shopping do?  I get very tired of finding a "new home."  Does the church want men like me?  I honestly don't know.  I am sure most on here would have nice things to say, but in practice this is a little different.  I don't believe like most Christians as far as literal interpretation of the OT (though I hold no grudge to those who disagree).  I don't believe in "going along to get along."  I do believe in unity but that unity must be built on God and principles, not a "visionary."  I also believe everybody in the church should be equal, from the wealthy congressman to the poor divorced single mother....I think that is how the Bible describes the body.  That sometimes does not sit well with the realities of keeping a church financed.  But we should conform our actions to what we know to be true, rather than the other way around.


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## thedeacon

Just remember this, trying to reason with some people is like wrestling with a hog, there is no way anyone wins, you end up filthy dirty and the hawg probly had a better time than you did.


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## gtparts

JB, if you don't give up and continue to search for the "perfect" local church body, if you find it this side of heaven, please let the rest of us know where it is. Until then, I'll just keep on working to make the church that I attend more effective in Kingdom-building for Christ.


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## JB0704

gtparts said:


> JB, if you don't give up and continue to search for the "perfect" local church body, if you find it this side of heaven, please let the rest of us know where it is. Until then, I'll just keep on working to make the church that I attend more effective in Kingdom-building for Christ.



Let's turn this around....would you continue attending church if they allowed gay folks to sing in the choir (not that I have a problem with that, but think I remember that you do)?

Now that we have some perspective, could you at least try and put yourself in my shoes, and see that I believe in things too.  I know my "hills to die for" might differ from yours, but lets at least try and be honest that we all have them.


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## JB0704

thedeacon said:


> Just remember this, trying to reason with some people is like wrestling with a hog, there is no way anyone wins, you end up filthy dirty and the hawg probly had a better time than you did.



Funny how this analogy works no matter which side you are on.


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## hummerpoo

JB0704 said:


> Point taken.
> 
> But, then, what does a person who hates the idea of church shopping do?  I get very tired of finding a "new home."
> The only answer to that one may be “suck it up”.  And I’m not being flippant.  I do understand what you are saying.  I’ve had many such challenges, and failed in most of them.  There are many pop psychology answers but that sort of thing always strikes me as being about as deep as a coat of paint.  Go slow and lean hard on the Spirit is as good as I can do.
> Does the church want men like me?  I honestly don't know.
> 
> Honestly, I don’t know either.  But I envision (thought you’d like that word) a place where you and other believers sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron.  That happens when the two rub against each other a lot, not when the two bang together.
> I am sure most on here would have nice things to say, but in practice this is a little different.
> And that is what makes the first two difficult.
> I don't believe like most Christians as far as literal interpretation of the OT (though I hold no grudge to those who disagree).
> If I understand your meaning, I think that some hard, and I do mean hard, study combined with much patience you may moderate those ideas some.  Personally, I’m just beginning that journey from a place nearer the other end of the road.
> I don't believe in "going along to get along."  I do believe in unity but that unity must be built on God and principles, not a "visionary."
> Here I probably know the principle better than the practice.  Remember Acts 15 and John 13: 34,35.  That’s about as close as I can get.
> I also believe everybody in the church should be equal, from the wealthy congressman to the poor divorced single mother....I think that is how the Bible describes the body.
> You are on target here (James 2:1-13).  And there is no doubt that this is a problem in the church.  The problem is that, as with other issues as well, most tend to be in one ditch or the other and few travel on the road.  I think vs. 8 applies to both subjects of the story.  Preference for the poor or rich based on the world’s valuation is equally damaging to the body.  Our objective must be to act in accordance with the analogy of the body.  Sorry, I’m wandering.
> That sometimes does not sit well with the realities of keeping a church financed.
> Just not my issue.
> But we should conform our actions to what we know to be true, rather than the other way around.



My current favorite Psalm is #29 in which Gods strength is described beautifully as both irresistibly powerful and sublimely gentle to which His people shout GLORY!  Then states “The LORD will give strength to His people; The LORD will bless His people with peace.” 

I think I once accused you of being blinded by injustice and unable to see the glory (a bunch of grass in the woods)?  I have no way of knowing if my accusation was well founded, but  today at work I found myself praying that you would see the glory and receive the strength and peace.  I think I owe my boss some time tomorrow.


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## JB0704

HP, I really appreciate the responses.  I am looking up those scriptures now and will study / ponder them.

Thanks for taking the time to think this through and write that out.


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## Madman

JB0704 said:


> Does the church want men like me?



JB,

I came into this late and maybe even unprepared.  I'm not sure what "Does the church want men like me?" means.

I guess because I don't know what "kind of man you are".

Some churches want members to “go along to get along”, that’s not me.  Some want the pastor or priest to be the final authority, that’s not me either.

I see that most of the Epistles were written to Churches that were having some problem; they were having those problems because “everyone is a man like you or me”.

Maybe an opening question we should consider, before we get here, is:  “When functioning as it should and the body is behaving as it should, what does “Church” look like?


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## JB0704

Madman said:


> Maybe an opening question we should consider, before we get here, is:  “When functioning as it should and the body is behaving as it should, what does “Church” look like?



That is a good question, and perhaps you could get a thread started on that topic.  It is a very interesting one to me, but has lead me to where I am right now.


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