# For those wanting to get a rangefinder with ARC



## merc123 (Aug 26, 2008)

Don't...it's a waste of money.  I decided to do the math on it.  This is the assumption that you are 90* straight up and down and the deer is on parallel ground to the tree, as if shooting in a field with slight elevation changes.  I may do one where the deer is on a slope up or down, but I am out of time.  

I attached the math spreadsheet.  Here is how to read it:

Height of the treestand (yards) means that is the distance up the tree you are shooting from.  1 yard = 3 feet so 4 yards = 12 feet up.

Distance to deer from base of tree (yards) means that is the distance, flat lined (actual distance) from the base of the tree you are in.   

Distance to deer from stand means the actual distance from your treestand to the deer.  This is what the ARC measurement would be in the rangefinder.

Height of Treestand (yards)	a	4	4	4	4	4
Distance to deer from base of tree (yards)	b	10	20	30	40	50
Distance to deer from stand	c	10.77	20.40	30.27	40.20	50.16


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## shadow2 (Aug 26, 2008)

the only issue with your spread sheet is the it fails to take in the fact that gravity will not effect the arrow flight as much on a angled shot.  Gravity has the largest effect on the flight of an arrow when the arrow is shot parrall to the ground once this angle is changed the arrow for bullet for that matter will fly flatter or not be affected as much by gravity thus causing you to hit high.  

example.  if you shoot a 30 yd shot parrall to the ground dead on then shoot a 30 yard shot either up or on down hill on a 30 degree angle you will hit high every time.  I know the leupold range finders take all of this into consideration for you.


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## firefighterfree (Aug 26, 2008)

Hey merc123 that makes a lot of since to me. I wonder the same thing. When you actually think about a Laser Ranger is suppose to give you the true distance from where you are ranging. Thanks alot for the speadsheet merc123


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## shadow2 (Aug 26, 2008)

a conventional range finde would have given you the same readings.


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## rmucken1 (Aug 26, 2008)

Shadow, if that is the case, does the speed of arrow matter?


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## shadow2 (Aug 26, 2008)

rmucken1 said:


> Shadow, if that is the case, does the speed of arrow matter?



yes so some degree it does matter.  The Leupold takes the speed of the arrow into count as well.  It has three different settings depending on how fas you arrow is flying.


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## rmucken1 (Aug 26, 2008)

Shadow, gravity is a constant at 9.8/ms.  Physics 101.  That can not be negotiated.    The only variance is the distance you are shooting to the target.   Your arrow is still going to drop at 9.8/ms.  If i am 20 ft up a tree and shoot a deer at 30 yds, my arrow is not flying faster at 30 yds.  The only time that it wouldnt matter is at a very steep angle, in which you propel an object faster than gravity.


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## shadow2 (Aug 26, 2008)

Ok I know that gravity is constant but when you start talking angles it effects things differently.  there are horizontal and vertical vectors that come into play with gravity in relation to flight.  Here is a link explaining it in terms of bullets.  The same is true for arrow flight just on a different level


http://www.imtt.net/downloads/anglefiring.pdf


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## rmucken1 (Aug 26, 2008)

In the diagram you linked, the direct range was 300 yds.  The gravity range ( or horizontal range) was 273 yds.  Doing reverse math, at a 25 degree angle, the vertical distance the shooter is above the target is 124.38.  Now plug that number back into the pathogorean therom and you get.

(124.38 squared) + (273 squared)=c squared (should be 300)

when you do the math, it comes out to 299.999998.


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## shadow2 (Aug 26, 2008)

rmucken1 said:


> In the diagram you linked, the direct range was 300 yds.  The gravity range ( or horizontal range) was 273 yds.  Doing reverse math, at a 25 degree angle, the vertical distance the shooter is above the target is 124.38.  Now plug that number back into the pathogorean therom and you get.
> 
> (124.38 squared) + (273 squared)=c squared (should be 300)
> 
> when you do the math, it comes out to 299.999998.



Ok lets try someting real world.  Take a targed out side. get 20ft up a tree then use a standard range finder and place the target at 20 yards.  then shoot your 20 yard pin you will hit High.  If you can do the same shooting up hill you will hit high as well.  This is another reason that archers are told to always aim a bit low.


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## shadow2 (Aug 26, 2008)

rmucken1 said:


> In the diagram you linked, the direct range was 300 yds.  The gravity range ( or horizontal range) was 273 yds.  Doing reverse math, at a 25 degree angle, the vertical distance the shooter is above the target is 124.38.  Now plug that number back into the pathogorean therom and you get.
> 
> (124.38 squared) + (273 squared)=c squared (should be 300)
> 
> when you do the math, it comes out to 299.999998.




when you go to shoot you only shoot  as if the taget is 273 yards not 300 yards.   thus preventing you from shooting over you point of aim which you would have done if you would have shot the target thinking that it was 300 away

the 273 is the true ballistic range.


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## Mudfeather (Aug 27, 2008)

Guys, I can't say gravity ever cost me a deer...neither can you honestly. 

And speed of an arrow has no effect on gravity. 

Those range finders were mainly designed for hunting out west with a rifle shooting great distances at steep angles. Actually they were mainly designed to profit off of hunters worrying about such stuff like us. LOL


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

shadow2, I see exactly what you're saying.  

However, on the Bushnell Elite 1500 with ARC it does not do the drop characteristic due to gravity/trajectory in archery mode...

Bow mode â€“ provides true horizontal distance from 5 to 99 yards 

Rifle mode â€“ provides bullet-drop/holdover data in inches from 100 to 600 yards 


Leupold is the same way:

Multiple Ballistics Settingsâ€¦RX rangefinders with True Ballistic Range (TBR®) provide accurate aiming information matched to the performance of your rifle or bow. By calculating the incline, line of sight range to the target, and a projectileâ€™s ballistics, your RX provides rifle hunters using Leupold Ballistics Aiming Systemâ„¢ reticles as well as bow hunters the correct equivalent horizontal distance for precise shooting on an incline. In other words, aim using the True Ballistic Range, not the line of sight range. Rifle hunters can also get this data as an MOA adjustment or a holdover point. With practice, long distance/steep angle shooting will become second nature. Dial in your RX to one of seven TBR ballistics settings for the rifle and three for the bow for incredible accuracy. TBR is effective to 800 yards for most rifle cartridges. 


They are using TRUE distance based on the ARC theories, not gravity for the bow modes, and estimated ballistics tables for rifles.

In all actuality, if you look at the numbers based on ARC the plain jane rangefinder is more effective.

12 feet up a tree, 10 yard horizontal distance to target = 10.77 yards actual to target.  If you use a 10 yard pin you will hit high according to what you're saying.  Since the target is .77 yards (2.31 feet) further, you will hit pretty close to on target.


Now, like said before, ARC will come in handy out west.  

Say you're 100 yards above your mule deer.   The deer shows to be 100 yards on the non ARC...ARC is 141.42.  You'll shoot 42 yards short at 100 yards, 60 at 125 yards, 80 at 150 yards, 101 at 175 yards.

Height of Treestand (yards)	a	100	100	100	100	100
Base of tree (yards)	b	            100	125	150	175	200
Distance to deer from stand	c	141.42	160.08	180.28	201.56	223.61

Now, you're in flat lands out west and you're only 2 yards eleveation above you're game.  You're ARC will be .02 yards or .72 inches more than non ARC.  

Height of Treestand (yards)	a	2	2	2	2	2
Distance to deer from base of tree (yards)	b	100	125	150	175	200
Distance to deer from stand	c	100.02	125.02	150.01	175.01	200.01


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## Full Pull (Aug 27, 2008)

great info thanks


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## Beehaw (Aug 27, 2008)

The bigger question for me would be what other features are only available on the "premium" models of any manufacturer.  I think most of the waterproof models include ARC, and I think being waterproof is much more important.


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## shadow2 (Aug 27, 2008)

waterproof is a grear advantage. it is avaible on the RXIII


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

Beehaw said:


> The bigger question for me would be what other features are only available on the "premium" models of any manufacturer.  I think most of the waterproof models include ARC, and I think being waterproof is much more important.



Right, but many buy it strictly for the ARC feature thinking if they don't the rangefinder is useless.


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## NOYDB (Aug 27, 2008)

Anyone got an estimate of the percentage of "features" we buy that "aren't really" needed?


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

Beats me...my rangefinder I traded for has no feature.  You push the button and it tells you the range...

However, ARC is a $100 feature that is in many situation useless.  JMO.


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## livetohunt (Aug 27, 2008)

I have wondered how much the angle really changed the shot too...As an experiment, I have ranged the base of a tree on a steep angle, and then come to my level and ranged the same tree. What I found is that the rangefinder measured the distances the same..Maybe 1 yard off. I do not have a rangefinder that calculates angle.

So I agree that the angle rangefinders are a waste of money for bowhunters..


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## jimmystriton (Aug 27, 2008)

the best range finder you can buy you already have...it is attached to your shoulders. It takes a lot of practice but you can get yourself within a yard from 40 and in. Shoot from  tree to get used to how it looks.........you can take the best rangefinder that gives you multiple readouts and tell you what to shoot it for but without the ability to hit what you want it does you no good.


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## Flash (Aug 27, 2008)

merc123 
  I didn't pay attention in math not sure we even had it     if I read it right you figured 12 ft in a tree.

  Would it change much if you were 20 or 22ft?


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

livetohunt said:


> I have wondered how much the angle really changed the shot too...As an experiment, I have ranged the base of a tree on a steep angle, and then come to my level and ranged the same tree. What I found is that the rangefinder measured the distances the same..Maybe 1 yard off. I do not have a rangefinder that calculates angle.
> 
> So I agree that the angle rangefinders are a waste of money for bowhunters..



I've done the same thing at first and couldn't see a difference.  I actually learned that instead of aiming at the deer, aim at a tree that is eye level so you get an accurate measurement.  



jimmystriton said:


> the best range finder you can buy you already have...it is attached to your shoulders. It takes a lot of practice but you can get yourself within a yard from 40 and in. Shoot from  tree to get used to how it looks.........you can take the best rangefinder that gives you multiple readouts and tell you what to shoot it for but without the ability to hit what you want it does you no good.



I read somewhere that even trained people are only right 75% of the time.  I agree with you on the shooting ability too 




Flash said:


> merc123
> I didn't pay attention in math not sure we even had it     if I read it right you figured 12 ft in a tree.
> 
> Would it change much if you were 20 or 22ft?




I actually included the spreadsheet with the measurements in the very first post.

Here ya go though:  

7 yards, or 21 feet:

You gain 2.21 yards at 10, 1.19 at 20, .81 at 30 and .61 at 40.  So if you non-ARC rangefinder shows 10, it's really 12.21 yards.

Height of Treestand (yards)	a	7	7	7	7	7
Distance to deer from base of tree (yards)	b	10	20	30	40	50
Distance to deer from stand	c	12.21	21.19	30.81	40.61	50.49


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

Also, to clarify some things about my bow.  I have 3 pins, 25, 35 and 45 yard pins.  For anything under 25 yards, I use my 25 yard pin.  I don't adjust.

I can shoot dead on at 5 yards, 10 yards, 12 yards, 15 yards, 18 yards or 25 yards with my 25 yard pin.  I have even shot my 3-d deer from a treestand, about 15 feet up, and still nailed it accurately.


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## gpigate (Aug 27, 2008)

we somewhat discussed the same thing in another thread

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=223210

do the numbers compare merc?

i agree 100%  those things have value, just not here, and not for what we are wanting to do.  is just my opinion.  save your money for the diesel bill


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

Pretty much gpigate.  These were all based off most of my hunting situations where the terrain was relatively flat in my shooting lanes with a 90* angle.

There is only one place I hunt where it might come into play, but I'm shooting up hill, which in a treestand is actually almost horizontal to what I'd be shooting.


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## tinker141 (Aug 27, 2008)

Pretty much it doesnt matter which range finder you use and what it reads as long as it is he one you set up with . In other words if you practice from 15 feet and you use your fav RF and it says that a target is 20 yards , and you have your pin set at 20 yards and it is shooting dead on ... Then when you are hunting from 15 feet using that same RF and it still reads 20 yards and you still use the 20 yard pin that you set up . Whammo .... It is still accurate . Even if you are really shooting 23 yards . Your set up doesnt know the difference . Thats how I set up , and it works well . JMO


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## fountain (Aug 27, 2008)

if you are up a tree 20 feet and the deer is 20 yards, the a high hit ( cant be more that an inch or two-regardless)--will not hurt anything.  it will give the right exit wound.  if you are 20 feet in the tree and the deer is 20 yards, you use the 20 yard pind and hit it in the back--it is not the rangefinder's fault at all.  the shooter made the error or the deer jumped the string--still possibly the hunter's fault.
the range finder is a helper--with or without arc.  if they did not come up with anything more technological each year, adding a hundred or so dollars, then they would feel they would lose money just sitting still.  
again the range finder is a tool to help--you do still have to use you head and skill to execute the shot. it only approximates the range, not make the shot for ya.  maybe that will be next years advancement and another thousand dollar option.  what did everybody do when there were no range finders?  they sighted their bows in at 20 yards and hunted approx. 20 yards from where they thought the animal may appear and then took that animal home--if the executed the shot correctly.
merc- use the regular range finder if you want.  i have a regular one and it works fine to me.  if i have to be that precise to make a 20 yard shot--then judging yardage should not even be a worry.  shooting should be.


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

fountain said:


> merc- use the regular range finder if you want.  i have a regular one and it works fine to me.  if i have to be that precise to make a 20 yard shot--then judging yardage should not even be a worry.  shooting should be.



Yep, I only use it for bowhunting anyway.  With rifle here is my yardage estimation...can I see it?  Yep...aim....fire....deer down!  deer down!


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## rmucken1 (Aug 27, 2008)

Shadow,

Using Merc123 example of being 12 ft up a tree and shooting 10 horizontal yds., your actual distance if measuered with a standard range finder would be 10.77.  So if you shoot for 10.77, your going to shoot high.  The reason for this is not because you are shooting with gravity and your arrow has less resistance, but that your actual range to the target is only 10 yds.  There is only 10 horizontal yds for your arrow to drop do to gravity.  Same thing with fountains exampler.  If you range a deer down a hill, we'll say, "straight line yds, the actual horizontal distance is not 20 yds.  Normal gravity does not work within vectors.  It runs straight down.


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## rmucken1 (Aug 27, 2008)

The reason The arc cam out was to let you know what your actual horizontal distance was to shoot, not what your "Straight line distance" was using conventional rangefinders.


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## merc123 (Aug 27, 2008)

rmucken1 said:


> The reason The arc cam out was to let you know what your actual horizontal distance was to shoot, not what your "Straight line distance" was using conventional rangefinders.



Exactly, and in terms of the short range of a bow and likely hood of not climbing a mile up a tree it makes ARC nearly useless.  That's why I posted this in Bowhunting and not General Hunting.  There is some use for it in gun hunting.


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## rmucken1 (Aug 29, 2008)

merc123 said:


> Exactly, and in terms of the short range of a bow and likely hood of not climbing a mile up a tree it makes ARC nearly useless.  That's why I posted this in Bowhunting and not General Hunting.  There is some use for it in gun hunting.



Yes i agree, ARC would be helpfull at long shots with a gun, but not really with a bow.  My buddy confirmed this last year because he bought one and we tried it out.


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## merc123 (Sep 7, 2008)

ttt


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## duke13 (Sep 9, 2008)

I think y'all are over thinking this. I shoot in my backyard from level ground and from a 16 ft. lock on at distances from 10 yards to 30 yards, ranged with a lazar rangefinder. My point of impact is the same. I believe any difference you are having by changing your angle of shot is more due to the angle of your eye and the sights than any physics equation. 30 yards is 30 yards whether it is level or at an angle.


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## Michael Lee (Sep 9, 2008)

rmucken1 said:


> Shadow, gravity is a constant at 9.8/ms.  Physics 101.  That can not be negotiated.    The only variance is the distance you are shooting to the target.   Your arrow is still going to drop at 9.8/ms.  If i am 20 ft up a tree and shoot a deer at 30 yds, my arrow is not flying faster at 30 yds.  The only time that it wouldnt matter is at a very steep angle, in which you propel an object faster than gravity.



9.82 / ms is in a frictionless environment.  In this case air resistance would be friction against the arrow and its components.  Also you have speed to deal with as mentioned so gravity's effect will be greater at greater distances obviously.

Also like said, 30 yards is 30 yards.  The further you shoot from a stand (in a level environment) the more effect gravity will have and resistance.  Alike, the further you shoot the closer to "level" you are getting.  So one would think accuracy would be closer at longer ranges as far as ground and stand equivalency, no counting in slope if a variable.

Basically the difference on a perpendicular environment is very small.

10 yard high stand (30 feet) (also higher than I would be bow hunting, but anyway)

Target is 20 yards away from the base of the tree

100 + 400 = 500

Sr root of 500 = 22.36 yards would basically be the distance from your stand to your target.

In my experience, the additional yardage is negated by the elevation (gravity effect) on the arrow.  So your 20 yard pin is actually a 22.36 yard pin, and you would aim normally in this case.

BUT if you range the target with any range finder and it reads 22 yards, wouldn't that be accurate enough?  Why are ARC range finders necessary?

If you are in a tree, isn't the target in a straight line away?

Long range shooting with a gun is a different ball game.

That's also why it's always good to practice from a tree stand.

One more thing that I have seen take an effect is the elevation you are hunting at.  When in Colorado, my bow just flat out shoots higher, even a 20 yards than it does here.


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## DaddyPaul (Sep 9, 2008)

Michael Lee said:


> If you are in a tree, isn't the target in a straight line away?



As I understand it, gravity only affects the arrow over the horizontal distance from the base of the tree to the target, not the line of sight distance. 

I agree the difference, is in most cases, is "neglible".


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## JohnK3 (Sep 9, 2008)

I will be buying a rangefinder with ARC.  But not for bowhunting, even though I will use it for bowhunting.  I will be buying ARC for rifle hunting.  The feature won't hurt my bowhunting rangefinding, so I'm not going to worry about it.


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## rmucken1 (Sep 9, 2008)

Michael Lee said:


> 9.82 / ms is in a frictionless environment.  In this case air resistance would be friction against the arrow and its components.  Also you have speed to deal with as mentioned so gravity's effect will be greater at greater distances obviously.
> 
> Also like said, 30 yards is 30 yards.  The further you shoot from a stand (in a level environment) the more effect gravity will have and resistance.  Alike, the further you shoot the closer to "level" you are getting.  So one would think accuracy would be closer at longer ranges as far as ground and stand equivalency, no counting in slope if a variable.
> 
> ...



I agree, we are agreeing on the same thing.


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## T_well (Sep 17, 2008)

Mudfeather said:


> Guys, I can't say gravity ever cost me a deer...neither can you honestly.



Say what you want, but I'm blaming all my missed shots on gravity!!!


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## waits (Sep 17, 2008)

*my 2 cents*

In my case I can honestly say that my form was the biggest issue on up hill and down hill shoots. I have learned a lot about this in competative archery. If you use any rangefinder and your bow is set to it you will be close enough to make a clean kill. Just work on your form and make sure that you bend at the waste and keep your anchor point the same. Remember that there is no substitute for practice good postand good luck everyone.


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## GSUJake (Sep 17, 2008)

just another gimmick to get you to  buy something else. In 2 years it will be something else...


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## merc123 (May 6, 2010)

For the 2010 season...


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## ClydeWigg3 (May 7, 2010)

Deep "stuff" man, deep stuff.  My head hurts now, I'm going back to bed.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (May 7, 2010)

Michael Lee said:


> One more thing that I have seen take an effect is the elevation you are hunting at.  When in Colorado, my bow just flat out shoots higher, even a 20 yards than it does here.



That is because the air is less dense at higher elevations.  My bow shoots fatter in Montana than it does here.  You can blame it on the flight, but we didn't fly and i have a good bow case....and all four of our bows did the same thing.  Sea level and 8000 feet are totally different and made a 8 to 9 inch difference.


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