# lack of Sabbath observance - a symptom of the problem?



## hawglips (Nov 29, 2015)

In my lifetime, in our society, observance of the Sabbath has changed drastically.  We have moved from Blue Laws and general societal respect for the commandment to keep the Sabbath Day holy, to a society where even the most devout believers do not consider it a commandment at all, much less one to take seriously.

Is it just a coincidence that this change in attitude and observance has been accompanied by things like, the legalization of abortion, the legalization of same sex marriage, the decrease in religiosity among all age groups, the increase in terrorism, the removal of religion and prayer from the schools, a president who proclaims we are no longer a Christian nation, etc.?


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 29, 2015)

I remember when the 7-11 stores came into being, and how shock people were that you would even consider going to a store and buying something on Sunday.  This month, our county voted liquor by the drink sales on Sunday with less than 300 votes against it.  Times have changed drastically.  I try to teach my children respect for their mother, and all women, because I believe the value of something is in the respect you show for that object.

We just don't value God like we use to, and it is showing up in our everyday lives and in our country.


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## rjcruiser (Nov 29, 2015)

Are you talking about the Sabbath? Or are you talking about Sunday. The only thing that has ever been holy on the Sabbath in the South is college football.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 29, 2015)

Sunday has been the day of worship since before 70AD


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## RNC (Nov 29, 2015)

So glad I'm not under the law of Moses


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2015)

Sunday is a day of worship to give everyone the Sabbath to rest.
The Sabbath was for man.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Sunday has been the day of worship since before 70AD



I didn't even say anything..

The Sabbath is fulfilled in Christ, Sunday has been a day of worship and gathering for the church since before 70 ad.
 Is it a commandment? I think one would be hard pressed to find Sunday worship as a commandment in Scripture.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 29, 2015)

Sabbath of Jesus and his disciples and the church is the 7th day of the 4th commandment.  Which is Saturday.  Blue laws are anti-christ, forcing worship on the false Sabbath, the "venerable day of the sun" as the pope that attempted to change the law of God called it.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 29, 2015)

Ya'll need to go talk to Paul about it, I guess.  He said to not let any man condemn you for the Sabbaths you keep, and those you don't.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Ya'll need to go talk to Paul about it, I guess.  He said to not let any man condemn you for the Sabbaths you keep, and those you don't.



There were two kinds of sabbaths.  

THE Sabbath of the 4th commandment

and sabbaths, or holidays, of the levitical law. 

THE Sabbath, the bible says, is eternal as the rest of the 10 commandment law of God.  Paul kept THE Sabbath.  The sabbaths were fulfilled in Christ with the rest of the "law of shadows", the temple laws that forshadowed Christ. 

Either Christians must keep the 10 commandment law, or they don't.  It's not the 9 commandments, or the 10 suggestions.  If the 4th commandment is irrelevant, then so are the other 9.  And I have yet to meet a christian that is OK with having other gods, worshipping idols, murder, adultery, etc.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 29, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> There were two kinds of sabbaths.
> 
> THE Sabbath of the 4th commandment
> 
> ...



Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?


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## ryanh487 (Nov 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?



Love the lord your God, love your neighbor as yourself.

You cannot love God without keeping the first 4 commandments, nor your neighbor without keeping the last 6.

Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,”[a] “You shall not covet,”* and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


We can apply the same principal to the first 4 commandmendts.  We love God with all our hearts by serving only Him.  We love God with all our hearts by not trying to represent him with an idol.  We love God with all our hearts by not taking on his name in vane.  We love God with all our hearts by honoring the special 7th day of the week that he set aside for our own benefit--to rest and spend time honoring him.  

These laws are not restrictions or burdens.  They are instructions for a joyful life, how to live as we were created to live.*


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 30, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> There were two kinds of sabbaths.
> 
> THE Sabbath of the 4th commandment
> 
> ...



But Jesus said that sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath.  I realize that while you believe that keeping the sabbath rates  way up the scale on things we should do, I am not so sure that it is the day that is important.  I think it is much more important that we set aside a specific time to worship God and show thanks for all that He has done for us.  

If you taught your child to be grateful and thankful for everything they received that week, and to show it on Friday evening, but instead, because they had a baby born on Saturday, and they started calling you and telling you how grateful they were for the way they were raised and all you did for them.   Would you hang up on them?  Would you tell them they really didn't love you because they called on Saturday and not Friday?  Would you have your attorney write them out of your will?

If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more does the Father give good gifts to us?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 30, 2015)

hawglips said:


> In my lifetime, in our society, observance of the Sabbath has changed drastically.  We have moved from Blue Laws and general societal respect for the commandment to keep the Sabbath Day holy, to a society where even the most devout believers do not consider it a commandment at all, much less one to take seriously.
> 
> Is it just a coincidence that this change in attitude and observance has been accompanied by things like, the legalization of abortion, the legalization of same sex marriage, the decrease in religiosity among all age groups, the increase in terrorism, the removal of religion and prayer from the schools, a president who proclaims we are no longer a Christian nation, etc.?



I"m at the point where I have to question if our way(s) of life have not created hardhearted people. The grace of God in believers has been overwhelmed by their entanglements with the world--especially the fight between people that would steal the coat off you back against those that would kill to keep it. Or in the fight(s) between  everything political, economic or religious against our life in Christ, our latter life is lost to the lead heart makers.

 Our generation  and traditions in Christ, are just not very strong. The test that has become our way of life is a slow creep to a peace and abiding that is not in Him although we use his name in our most valued enterprises. 

For instance: Quote: ["a president who proclaims we are no longer a Christian nation, etc. " End quote] in a list of negative things which includes "the increase in terrorism" does point out that the president is in league with agents of terror, a Timothy McVey or other terrorist perhaps  yet immune to justice. I would think twice before entering the church or thinking the church and Christ was a serious matter for the saint making such a list. Now, I am an old man and my mind is diminished, but I have to wonder what goes on in the minds of the young and vigorous--when they assess the saints of our generation.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 30, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> But Jesus said that sabbath was created for man, not man for the sabbath.  I realize that while you believe that keeping the sabbath rates  way up the scale on things we should do, I am not so sure that it is the day that is important.  I think it is much more important that we set aside a specific time to worship God and show thanks for all that He has done for us.
> 
> If you taught your child to be grateful and thankful for everything they received that week, and to show it on Friday evening, but instead, because they had a baby born on Saturday, and they started calling you and telling you how grateful they were for the way they were raised and all you did for them.   Would you hang up on them?  Would you tell them they really didn't love you because they called on Saturday and not Friday?  Would you have your attorney write them out of your will?
> 
> If you, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more does the Father give good gifts to us?



We're talking about God's sabbath, not the burdensome pharisee sabbath.  That's what Jesus' point was -- they had taken a beautiful thing that was to our benefit and made it a burden.

When the Jews were exiled to babylon, part of the reason was that they had not been keeping the Sabbath as commanded.  To prevent this, the religious leaders came up with pages and pages of laws restricting activity on the Sabbath.  This made the gift of Sabbath a burden, and angered Jesus. 

Why WOULDN'T you answer the phone on Sabbath to talk about a new baby?  That's what it's all about--acknowledging God's authority as the original creator--and there is no greater homage to the creator than to celebrate the creation of life in His image.


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## RNC (Nov 30, 2015)

Romans 7:4--- Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


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## hobbs27 (Nov 30, 2015)

Jesus is the Sabbath. We find our rest in Him. In the old covenant there were all kinds of works, rules, and laws man had to do, and obey in an attempt to show themselves approved by God.

The new covenant is of grace, not works. What works we do, is out of Love..God is love, therefore the works are not of us but by God through us. We have no labors to rest of, for Christ is our rest...not just one day, but every second of every day of every year.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 30, 2015)

RNC said:


> Romans 7:4--- Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.



So it's no longer sinful to worship Baal or kill folks.  


The law is not our salvation, it is what shows us we need salvation.  Without the law there is no longer such a thing as sin. And we know from Jesus himself that believers still sin.  If you throw away the law, we have no need for Christ.   There is no difference between the heathen and the saint.  The 10 Commandment law is eternal, and has existed in heaven before the creation of our world and will exist long after it has been remade. The PENALTY, or curse, of the law has been made obsolete when we allow Christ to live his perfect life through us, it does not excuse us from the law.  Grace forgives past mistakes, it is not a free pass for the future ones.  Repentance is change, not just an apology.

Christ called us to be DOERS of the law, not just hearers.  As James said, you show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith BY my works.  Works are the result of salvation, transformation, not the cause of it.  Christ kept the law--if Christ is in us it is made evident by our obedience to the Father as he was obedient.


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## hawglips (Nov 30, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Our generation  and traditions in Christ, are just not very strong. The test that has become our way of life is a slow creep to a peace and abiding that is not in Him although we use his name in our most valued enterprises.



I fear that as a people, this nation is indeed becoming more and more distant from Christ.  He is farther and farther from our thoughts and intents of our hearts.  We were never perfect, but we didn't reject him wholesale, like we are moving towards at a rapid pace these days.  

Even professed believers seem to spend more time discounting commandments than they do defending obedience to them. 

Keeping the Sabbath day holy was never done away with by Christ.  Only the Pharisees' hypocritical missing of the mark was rebuked.  And why would treating one day a week as a holy day, according to an original commandment, be something that a believer would not want to do?   But that's not the point of this thread.  

I do believe the treatment of the Sabbath by believers and society in general is a symptom of where we are these days.  And I do believe there is no coincidence that this attitude and the problems that beset us as a nation coexist.


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## NE GA Pappy (Nov 30, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> We're talking about God's sabbath, not the burdensome pharisee sabbath.  That's what Jesus' point was -- they had taken a beautiful thing that was to our benefit and made it a burden.
> 
> When the Jews were exiled to babylon, part of the reason was that they had not been keeping the Sabbath as commanded.  To prevent this, the religious leaders came up with pages and pages of laws restricting activity on the Sabbath.  This made the gift of Sabbath a burden, and angered Jesus.
> 
> Why WOULDN'T you answer the phone on Sabbath to talk about a new baby?  That's what it's all about--acknowledging God's authority as the original creator--and there is no greater homage to the creator than to celebrate the creation of life in His image.




you missed the point completely.  I was trying to say that God wishes for us to communion with Him each and every day in a personal way.  If we decide to honor Him by making a special day out of Sunday rather that Saturday, is that really a sin. Or could it be that God respects the honor and worship, even if it is on another day?

Do we have to cross every T and dot every i to please God, or does He allow for our excuses and nonstandard behaviors and love us anyway?  In other words, is it the day we need to respect, or the God that created the day?



I think you missed it a little bit on the Jews/Babylon idea.  Scripture says it was the year of Shemitah that Israel was exiled for 490 years.  Interesting that you don't think we should close all our businesses, refuse to plow and plant, and set aside a year of rest every 7 years as was commanded also.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 30, 2015)

Galatians 1:8
But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!

Romans 16:25
Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,

What is Paul's gospel and/or the one he preached?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 1:8
> But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!
> 
> Romans 16:25
> ...



Wiki has some  interesting info on this regards your question:


1.God sent his Son.
2.The Son was crucified for the sins of humanity.
3.After being dead three days, the Son was raised from the dead, defeating death.
4.The Son would soon return.
5.Those in Christ will live with him forever.
6.Followers are urged to live by a set apart (sanctified) standard—"And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ".[1 Thes. 5:23]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle


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## Huntinfool (Dec 1, 2015)

Gracious.  Every time I think there might be a thread to take interest in....just increased silliness.

Folks, on the 7th day God rested from his work and made it Holy.  The Sabbath was created well before the Law was given and, if God rested (even though he didn't need to)....perhaps we should heed the example.

Why is there so much time spent in here these days looking for the most minute ways to justify our own distance from our Creator?  The OP was simply lamenting that even Christians are beginning to believe that something God established as good is not something that is good for them....and then the rest of the thread has been spent confirming exactly what he was afraid of.


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## welderguy (Dec 1, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Gracious.  Every time I think there might be a thread to take interest in....just increased silliness.
> 
> Folks, on the 7th day God rested from his work and made it Holy.  The Sabbath was created well before the Law was given and, if God rested (even though he didn't need to)....perhaps we should heed the example.
> 
> Why is there so much time spent in here these days looking for the most minute ways to justify our own distance from our Creator?  The OP was simply lamenting that even Christians are beginning to believe that something God established as good is not something that is good for them....and then the rest of the thread has been spent confirming exactly what he was afraid of.



Good point.
I kinda got the feeling it boiled down to "is it pleasing to God to forsake assembling together or not?" .


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## JB0704 (Dec 1, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Gracious.  Every time I think there might be a thread to take interest in....just increased silliness.



You and I should debate in here more often.  I miss those days 



Huntinfool said:


> Why is there so much time spent in here these days looking for the most minute ways to justify our own distance from our Creator?  The OP was simply lamenting that even Christians are beginning to believe that something God established as good is not something that is good for them....and then the rest of the thread has been spent confirming exactly what he was afraid of.



To me, there seemed to be a cause / effect relationship established by the OP relevant to Sabbath observance.  I might agree that the effects exist, but do not agree with the cause.  There are a lot of things wrong with our society.  However, linking increased terror, decreased blue laws, and legalized abortion to this seems far fetched.  I think it (decreased Sabbath observance) may also be a symptom with the root being a general decreased spirituality amongst the people.

Society is in a current state of rebellion against the way things always were.  I guess that may be a never ending process, I dunno.  There are good and bad changes that come with this.  However, even on a micro level, rebellion is not always the fault of the rebellious as it can be a natural reaction to over zealous application of the law, rules, etc. (this goes for any rebellion.....an angry teenager or a political uprising).  Maybe some introspection within the religious community is in order?  Perhaps something that doesn't involve "let's figure out a way to re-brand."

Just some thoughts.


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 1, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Gracious.  Every time I think there might be a thread to take interest in....just increased silliness.
> 
> Folks, on the 7th day God rested from his work and made it Holy.  The Sabbath was created well before the Law was given and, if God rested (even though he didn't need to)....perhaps we should heed the example.
> 
> Why is there so much time spent in here these days looking for the most minute ways to justify our own distance from our Creator?  The OP was simply lamenting that even Christians are beginning to believe that something God established as good is not something that is good for them....and then the rest of the thread has been spent confirming exactly what he was afraid of.



I hope I haven't given the impression that I am against respect for the Sabbath. My contention is that should we be setting aside Saturday as the Sabbath or Sunday. 

If we really wanted to go back and follow the law given, We would be celebrating from sunset on Friday til sunset on Saturday as the Sabbath, as the jewish day starts around 6pm.   I know that some will scream that all that died under grace, but hey, either you follow the whole law, or you are condemned by the law.  

Our society has grown so far away from gospel truth and the desire to please God, that we can even justify the killing of unborn children by saying they are not alive because they haven't taken a breath.  Ludicrous.   

I believe we are all doing as Jesus spoke, and trying to remove the speck from a brothers eye, and ignoring the timber that we have in our own eye.

God forgive us.


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## RNC (Dec 1, 2015)

Galatians 5:4 -- Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 1, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Gracious.  Every time I think there might be a thread to take interest in....just increased silliness.



Interesting, substantive threads are a rarity these days.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 1, 2015)

I wonder how many folks who say they don't believe in working on Sunday would want somebody working for the hospital to come get them on Sunday if they had a heart attack? Or how many stop to eat out after church on Sunday morning in a place where people work to prepare and serve the food?

When I was a kid we weren't even allowed to fish on Sunday. Or do much of anything else. I think that one day is the same as another, and if you have a relationship with God, it should be on every day, not just one special one.


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## RNC (Dec 1, 2015)

NCHillbilly said:


> I wonder how many folks who say they don't believe in working on Sunday would want somebody working for the hospital to come get them on Sunday if they had a heart attack? Or how many stop to eat out after church on Sunday morning in a place where people work to prepare and serve the food?
> 
> When I was a kid we weren't even allowed to fish on Sunday. Or do much of anything else. I think that one day is the same as another, and if you have a relationship with God, it should be on every day, not just one special one.



Good post !


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

NCHillbilly said:


> I wonder how many folks who say they don't believe in working on Sunday would want somebody working for the hospital to come get them on Sunday if they had a heart attack? Or how many stop to eat out after church on Sunday morning in a place where people work to prepare and serve the food?
> 
> When I was a kid we weren't even allowed to fish on Sunday. Or do much of anything else. I think that one day is the same as another, and if you have a relationship with God, it should be on every day, not just one special one.



That sounds like my childhood which was even more liberal than my parents childhood. My mother couldn't even play cards or say "I swear." 
It also depended on our preacher as to what we could do. Different guideline given by different preachers.  At one point we couldn't even buy a loaf of bread on Sunday. Definitely couldn't go to the river or play ball.
We were required to rest meaning, take a nap.

It was mentioned that the Sabbath started on Friday at 6pm. If one started their Sabbath on Sunday morning, wouldn't they be in violation of not keeping the Sabbath correctly? I would think this to be worse than not keeping it at all. 

I can't see how Sabbath keeping is related to abortions and same sex marriage. It's more in relation to how society changes over the years. Mixed marriages are now accepted when once they weren't. Women now wear pants to Church and teach men. Churches now sell Pumpkins for Halloween even on Sunday. Halloween for God's sake, and on Sunday. 
                                                                                              These are legalism issues that have nothing to do with God's grace. Salvation is of the Lord's and not by our works. We couldn't follow the Law even if we wanted to thanks to Adam. This is why we needed Salvation in the form of a Redeemer. Any other Gospel is not the Gospel of Paul. We must follow the teachings of Paul as he was the teacher of the Gentiles.


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## ryanh487 (Dec 1, 2015)

God set aside 1 day, a specific day.  That's all.  It's not a complicated thing, a burdensome thing, or a bad thing in any way.  He said remember THE Sabbath and keep it Holy (as in continue to keep it Holy because he had already made it that way).  Yes, a relationship with God is a daily thing.  But He commanded also in the 4th commandment that 6 days a week we shall work.  Keeping Sabbath every day isn't holy, it's lazy! Sabbath is about trusting that our Creator will provide for our needs. It's about putting our daily nonsense aside for worship, fellowship, prayer, and the rest that our bodies were physically designed to need. Our God is to be obeyed, not bargained with--in His authority as the creator, He designated a specific day and asked us that if we love Him, to keep His commandments.  Not mold them to fit our preferences and schedule.  

Nic, you mention hospital work.  As Jesus said, it is not sinful to do good on the sabbath.  He healed on the Sabbath, why would it not be OK for us to follow likewise?  He also said "which of you, if your ox fell in a ditch on Sabbath, would not labor to pull him out?".  He was not tearing down the Sabbath, just that the idea that we should neglect the "life happens" emergencies for the sake of it.  Rest on Sabbath. Don't work for the sake of income, trust that God will meet your needs and bless your obedience.  But if someone needs help, help them, even if it means labor!  

Sabbath is not for repairing your car.  But if you pass someone on the side of the road struggling with a flat, help them!

Sabbath is not for cleaning your house.  But if you dog has an accident, pick it up.

Sabbath is meant for our own good.  It is a recognition of God as the creator--the 4th commandment is the authority clause of the law.  Because he created the earth, and because he made the 7th day holy, and because he ceased his labor on the 7th day, so we are to do likewise in recognition of this.  It is because of creation and sabbath that our 7 day calendar even exists, and in every language but english around the world the word for Saturday IS Sabbath.  

It goes back to the OP.  Why are christians arguing so hard about what they shouldn't have to do, instead of opening their hearts and begging "God, what more can I do to show my love for you in response to your amazing grace?"

And moreso, obedience to God is a free will choice that should not be legislated by government.  You cannot force worship.  There shouldn't need to be laws forbidding work on Sabbath, in a christian nation there shouldn't be any desire to to begin with. 

Look at Little Debbie. The founders, the McKee family, are Adventist.  They live in Collegedale, TN.  Little Debbie headquarters closes down every Friday at 4:00 PM to give the workers time to get home, and doesn't re-open until Sunday.  It costs them $1,000,000 a week to do this complete shut down and re-start.  But they haven't suffered for it one bit!


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 1, 2015)

I seriously doubt the cost of shutting down production and restarting production in a bakery cost $1MIL.

You never answered the question about starting the Sabbath on Friday evening... God plainly says evening and morning are a day.  Not midnight, morning, afternoon and evening are a day.


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## hawglips (Dec 1, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> The OP was simply lamenting that even Christians are beginning to believe that something God established as good is not something that is good for them....and then the rest of the thread has been spent confirming exactly what he was afraid of.



This is true.

Does anyone besides myself wonder if the descent we have experienced as a people and as a nation are related to our hearts turning away from God?  I can't help but feel that there is a direct relationship there.  And since I believe that this nation was inspired by God and founded for His purposes, we have a certain obligation to worship Him, or lose his special blessings.


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## hawglips (Dec 1, 2015)

RNC said:


> Galatians 5:4 -- Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.



Are those who use grace as a justification for violating God's commandments in jeopardy?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> This is true.
> 
> Does anyone besides myself wonder if the descent we have experienced as a people and as a nation are related to our hearts turning away from God?  I can't help but feel that there is a direct relationship there.  And since I believe that this nation was inspired by God and founded for His purposes, we have a certain obligation to worship Him, or lose his special blessings.



Special blessings? Can you list examples please?


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## ryanh487 (Dec 1, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I seriously doubt the cost of shutting down production and restarting production in a bakery cost $1MIL.
> 
> You never answered the question about starting the Sabbath on Friday evening... God plainly says evening and morning are a day.  Not midnight, morning, afternoon and evening are a day.



Sabbath is sundown friday to sundown saturday night, a 24 hour period.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> This is true.
> 
> Does anyone besides myself wonder if the descent we have experienced as a people and as a nation are related to our hearts turning away from God?  I can't help but feel that there is a direct relationship there.  And since I believe that this nation was inspired by God and founded for His purposes, we have a certain obligation to worship Him, or lose his special blessings.




Were we a better , more Christian nation while we were killing and taking native Americans land? What about as a Nation that was deeply involved in Slavery, were we more Christian nation then? 
 Were we more of a Christian nation when we expelled people from church membership for picking peas on Sunday ( actually happened in the county I was born and raised in ) ?


Maybe I'm just one of the few that thinks things are getting better, with up's and downs along the way.


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## ryanh487 (Dec 1, 2015)

America is not now nor has it ever been a nation reflective of Christ's character.  Now less than ever.  We are the second beast of revelation.  There are those who use the blessings of being an American to bring Christ to the world, but the nation as a whole is not a Christian nation.

If we were a Christian nation, there would be no call for welfare programs because the church would have already taken care of the needs of every poor person, widow, orphan, and homeless soul.  

If we were a Christian nation, we wouldn't even think up half the laws and regulations that are on the books, because the populace would never think of doing the things that made folks pass them.

If we were a Christian nation, it would be like Israel under Solomon's Godly part of his reign -- folks from around the world looking to us for instruction in awe of how amazing everything was, instead of blaming us for global problems and seeking to control us or tear us down.

A christian nation cannot exist, nor will it exist, in this fallen world.  The only holy nation that will ever exist is the new Jerusalem established in the new heaven and earth after the second coming.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 1, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> America is not now nor has it ever been a nation reflective of Christ's character.  Now less than ever.  We are the second beast of revelation.


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 1, 2015)

ryanh487 said:


> Sabbath is sundown friday to sundown saturday night, a 24 hour period.



I know what Sabbath is, I was asking if that is what you are observing or think we should observe.   I know you will have said Paul was talking about special Sabbaths when he said not to be condemned for the ones you keep or don't keep, but you gave no basis for that claim.  

To me, this is a legalistic view of what God expects from us.   To suggest that we have fallen from His favor because of not keeping Sabbath is a bit of a reach to me.  A Friday evening to Saturday evening Sabbath has never been practiced in America by the populace, nor most any other country in the world.  It is a Jewish tradition.  The Sabbath that was celebrated here and many other countries is a Sunday Sabbath, with which you are not in agreement.  

Sure, the attitude of respect for anything held holy has diminished in America. Not just for the Sabbath.  If you hold anything up as holy or sacred, people will try to destroy it.  I think it is the great falling away that is spoken of in Scripture, and will only get much worse before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I know what Sabbath is, I was asking if that is what you are observing or think we should observe.   I know you will have said Paul was talking about special Sabbaths when he said not to be condemned for the ones you keep or don't keep, but you gave no basis for that claim.
> 
> To me, this is a legalistic view of what God expects from us.   To suggest that we have fallen from His favor because of not keeping Sabbath is a bit of a reach to me.  A Friday evening to Saturday evening Sabbath has never been practiced in America by the populace, nor most any other country in the world.  It is a Jewish tradition.  The Sabbath that was celebrated here and many other countries is a Sunday Sabbath, with which you are not in agreement.
> 
> Sure, the attitude of respect for anything held holy has diminished in America. Not just for the Sabbath.  If you hold anything up as holy or sacred, people will try to destroy it.  I think it is the great falling away that is spoken of in Scripture, and will only get much worse before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.



I'm with Hobbs, I think everything is getting better. We are doing more to end world hunger. Infant mortality is down. People are living longer. Knowledge is increasing. We're taking better care of our natural resources. 

We treat each other better, help the sick, feed the poor, build houses for the poor, missionaries and churches send help and aid into the world. 
The US is no longer an Imperialistic nation. We're helping other nations instead of taking them. Even gave a few lands back. We treat blacks and women with equality.

Mass communication makes the world appear to be worse. 

We're slowly learning about grace instead of legalism.


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## RNC (Dec 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Are those who use grace as a justification for violating God's commandments in jeopardy?



We are not violating something we are not under .


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## NE GA Pappy (Dec 1, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm with Hobbs, I think everything is getting better. We are doing more to end world hunger. Infant mortality is down. People are living longer. Knowledge is increasing. We're taking better care of our natural resources.
> 
> We treat each other better, help the sick, feed the poor, build houses for the poor, missionaries and churches send help and aid into the world.
> The US is no longer an Imperialistic nation. We're helping other nations instead of taking them. Even gave a few lands back. We treat blacks and women with equality.
> ...



if things are getting so much better, why are murder rates up, ISIS beheading people, Syrian christian dying daily, and violence running rampant in the streets?  Now to you square that with scripture that says in the last days, men would be lovers of themselves rather than truth? How son will turn on their fathers and fathers on their sons? Seems to me that things are sure worse now than they were 20 years ago.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> if things are getting so much better, why are murder rates up, ISIS beheading people, Syrian christian dying daily, and violence running rampant in the streets?  Now to you square that with scripture that says in the last days, men would be lovers of themselves rather than truth? How son will turn on their fathers and fathers on their sons? Seems to me that things are sure worse now than they were 20 years ago.



And before that our parents thought the time before WWII was better. Before the evil Nazis who gave way to the evil Communists. Back before the dirty hippies showed up with their dope and free love. Before them were the liberal Beatniks. Before them were the socialist Bohemians.

In the Thirties we had the Great Depression. Before the Thirties was the "Roaring Twenties." The Twenties, that really was an evil decade. The second incarnation of the Klan was going on pretty strong to stop the rise of the Colored empires. There was good paying jobs in the cotton mills and turpentine camps. If you didn't mind owing your soul to the company store.
I wonder it the government was as crooked back then?
Rumrunning was popular as was gangsters.

It actually went down hill because of Jazz Music. You can read about it. Jazz was Satan's gift to humanity. It made young people dance provocatively, wear weird clothes, and strange hair styles.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 2, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> if things are getting so much better, why are murder rates up, ISIS beheading people, Syrian christian dying daily, and violence running rampant in the streets?  Now to you square that with scripture that says in the last days, men would be lovers of themselves rather than truth? How son will turn on their fathers and fathers on their sons? Seems to me that things are sure worse now than they were 20 years ago.



The flavor of the day in  bad news is always a cause for some to say that it has never been worse than today. Yet,  it would be easy to make lists of sins of the past, but then I would be in judgement of those who sowed the seeds of today. 

The citizens of this country today are the children of the citizens of yesterday. The citizens today are the creation of their predecessors. Personal sin is sin against the community and sin against the community is sin against the nation and sin against the nations is sin of the nation.

It has always been easy to say our children really don't  have shame, and forget that we thought this to them, for we had no shame for many sins that made us prosperous and comfortable and thought blessings. 

It is often easy for a citizen to frown on the habitual death via abortions for example of babies in his/her nation, but to look away at the habitual deaths of nation X babies from collateral damage in war. Our children learn most from our examples and in many cases judge us wanting. And us means our religious, spiritual, and moral make up which really speaks to the God we believe in.

One  of greatest american prophet I have heard regards the the sins of the nation was President Eisenhower and his caution of the industrial military complex vs the nation of peace. And one is never a prophet in his homeland still holds unfortunately.

Repentance required, not from people who don't go to church but from those who do and think that in their generation they were blessed for having far less sins than today. The remedy is mercy--- and guess who has to ask for it? Who has to admit his sin to God first, the guy going to church and reminded to do so, to repent and confess ( admit his sins) frequently or someone else? 


1 Kings 8:46-50New International Version (NIV)

46 “When they sin against you—for there is no one who does not sin—and you become angry with them and give them over to their enemies, who take them captive to their own lands, far away or near; 47 and if they have a change of heart in the land where they are held captive, and repent and plead with you in the land of their captors and say, ‘We have sinned, we have done wrong, we have acted wickedly’; 48 and if they turn back to you with all their heart and soul in the land of their enemies who took them captive, and pray to you toward the land you gave their ancestors, toward the city you have chosen and the temple I have built for your Name; 49 then from heaven, your dwelling place, hear their prayer and their plea, and uphold their cause. 50 And forgive your people, who have sinned against you; forgive all the offenses they have committed against you, and cause their captors to show them mercy;
---------------------------------
I suggest that the captors are the sins of the fathers, not those of the sons in this case. The fathers are still in their sins. They need to repent first, not the sons.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 2, 2015)

Perhaps contraception has prevented more future babies than abortion has killed. Is killing life a greater sin than preventing life?
I remember when some Christians believed so. Times sure change for better or worse.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps contraception has prevented more future babies than abortion has killed. Is killing life a greater sin than preventing life?
> I remember when some Christians believed so. Times sure change for better or worse.



Yes but on the other hand I remember mothers with ten kids, and a husband working months away from home, no valium then, a big credit bill for groceries at the corner store, very little in the lunch box at school and very little in the bread box at home and nothing under the tree for Xmas.  Now adults I think they still hurt for it all. Times sure changed yes.


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## hawglips (Dec 3, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Special blessings? Can you list examples please?



It started with the hand of God in everything about the founding of the republic, through the gaining of independence and establishing the Constitution, and the continued blessings of prosperity and freedom unique to us compared to any other nation in history.


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## hawglips (Dec 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps contraception has prevented more future babies than abortion has killed. Is killing life a greater sin than preventing life?
> I remember when some Christians believed so. Times sure change for better or worse.



Yes, by a long shot.


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## Israel (Dec 3, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> The flavor of the day in  bad news is always a cause for some to say that it has never been worse than today. Yet,  it would be easy to make lists of sins of the past, but then I would be in judgement of those who sowed the seeds of today.
> 
> The citizens of this country today are the children of the citizens of yesterday. The citizens today are the creation of their predecessors. Personal sin is sin against the community and sin against the community is sin against the nation and sin against the nations is sin of the nation.
> 
> ...



amen
"if we had lived in the days of our fathers we would not have stoned the prophets..."


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## hawglips (Dec 3, 2015)

RNC said:


> We are not violating something we are not under .



I think this is an unfortunate perspective.

Christ did not do away with the 10 commandments, he added a spiritual aspect to them, making them even stricter. Seems to me that was made very clear in his sermon on the mount.  

For example, under Moses' law, killing a man was a sin.  In Christ, getting mad at a man is a sin.  

Under Moses' law, having sex with a woman outside of marriage was a sin - under Christ, even lusting after her in one's heart is a sin.

As for the Sabbath, putting down the Pharisaical traditions of counting steps, etc, was not doing away with the Sabbath commandment God established.

It really seems to me that too many of us professing Christ look for loopholes to sin rather than look to repent and follow Him.  But His is a gospel of repentance.  We draw near to him with our lips but have hearts that prefer to reside in Babylon.  Seems to me that the eagerness among those professing to be disciples to make excuses not to keep the Sabbath day holy is a symptom of a fundamental deterioration in our love of God as a people.  

And it seems that as we've departed farther and farther from Him, our liberties, our prosperity, and our virtue have decreased along with it.

What we need is real revival.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I think this is an unfortunate perspective.
> 
> Christ did not do away with the 10 commandments, he added a spiritual aspect to them, making them even stricter. Seems to me that was made very clear in his sermon on the mount.
> 
> ...



While many Christians do see as you, I and others see the lesson of the Sermon on the Mount differently.
Jesus was teaching that even if we were better at keeping the law than the Pharisees, it still would not be good enough to enter the Kingdom. 

He was showing us that none are good by comparing lust to adultery and hate to murder. We are all guilty of sins such as hate, anger, lust, jealousy, lying, cheating, boasting, pride, coveting, not forgiving others, not helping others, etc. 
While we may not commit murder and adultery, we are as equally as those that do in our lack of ability to keep the law.

This is why Paul presents this long list of sins that will keep us our of the Kingdom and then says "and such were some of you but you were washed."

Paul shows this again in Romans. After presenting this long list of sins in Romans 1, he returns with this rebuttal in Romans 2.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 3, 2015)

Jesus was teaching and did so a few other times that you can try to get to Heaven by keeping the Law or you can get to heaven by Himself. 
That if you choose the Law method, then good luck as it will be very,very hard if not impossible.

I mean if lust or hatred will keep me out of the Kingdom, all I can do is to be very thankful for grace. 

The option is still open though if someone wants to try living by the Law.

We do need a revival or perhaps a Great Awakening!


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## hawglips (Dec 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> While many Christians do see as you, I and others see the lesson of the Sermon on the Mount differently.
> Jesus was teaching that even if we were better at keeping the law than the Pharisees, it still would not be good enough to enter the Kingdom.
> 
> He was showing us that none are good by comparing lust to adultery and hate to murder. We are all guilty of sins such as hate, anger, lust, jealousy, lying, cheating, boasting, pride, coveting, not forgiving others, not helping others, etc.
> ...



This is all good.  And true.  Except I think an important component is missing.

If there was any question after the Sermon on mount, the parables of Matthew 25 give clarity.

We have 10 virgins (not vile sinners, but pure virgins, who were waiting on the Lord), 5 who were shut out and told "I know you not," because they didn't bring enough oil.

Then we have 3 servants - servants, not vile sinners;  those who worked for the Lord, and had an intimate relationship with him - not strangers or neighbors.  The one who did not take what the Lord had freely given him and work to increase it, lost what he had been freely given, and was cast into outer darkness. 

And then we have the whole world at judgement being either given everlasting punishment, or life eternal, based purely on how they treated others.

If you love me, keep my commandments, he said.  And the first and greatest commandment is to love Him with all our hearts and mind.   Some say we are not under law.  So, does that mean there are no commandments?  And whatever I do, no matter the motivation, it is OK, because I confess Christ? 

Seems to me that perhaps that particular misunderstanding is what leads to the symptomatic dismissal of Sabbath observance, chastity, honesty, and other basic commandments that lead us to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us.  And we may very well end up wondering why the Lord says he doesn't know us, and sends us to outer darkness and eternal punishment (as in Matt. 25).

In my lifetime, the decline of morality (in all its forms) and dismissal of prayer and Christianity in the public square, is very evident.   The speed at which we are losing freedoms and security that once were sacrosanct is almost stunning.   I can't help but make a mental cause and effect link.

"We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right which Heaven itself has ordained;" (G. Washington)


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## hobbs27 (Dec 4, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Seems to me that perhaps that particular misunderstanding is what leads to the symptomatic dismissal of Sabbath observance, chastity, honesty, and other basic commandments that lead us to Christ and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us.



If you are yoked up with the Lord and truly being led by the Holy Spirit, what need is there of a written law?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2015)

Hebrews 10:14-17
14For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:16"This is the new covenant I will make with my people on that day, says the LORD: I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds."17Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more."

On that day? What day was that?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2015)

If repentance means that I must stop sinning to enter the Kingdom of God, why did Jesus have to die for my non ability to do just that?

Why didn't I just repent from sin instead of accepting God's plan of salvation through his Son?

Galatians 3:12-13
12However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." 13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE "

Two options, one in verse 12 and the other in verse 13.


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## hawglips (Dec 5, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> If you are yoked up with the Lord and truly being led by the Holy Spirit, what need is there of a written law?



It's not "law".   It's commandments.  The Lord loves us, so he gives us commandments.  If we obey them, we are happier, both in this life and eternity, and we qualify for the companionship of the Holy Ghost.  And if we are walking on the strait and narrow path, which few find, and have the Holy Spirit as our guide, then we will not be deceived by Satan or his servants.

Sabbath observance is for us.  Like praying and feasting in the scriptures, it brings us closer to God.  It strengthens us and protects us from the fiery darts of the evil adversary who roams about like a lion seeking whom he can devour. We are better able to avoid being his prey.  It's part of putting on the full armor of God. 

When we use his grace as an excuse not to keep his commandment, then we are not in him, and we are in sin.  We are the servant who hides what the Lord freely gave him in the ground.  And we are one of the foolish virgins....


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## welderguy (Dec 5, 2015)

hawglips said:


> It's not "law".   It's commandments.  The Lord loves us, so he gives us commandments.  If we obey them, we are happier, both in this life and eternity, and we qualify for the companionship of the Holy Ghost.  And if we are walking on the strait and narrow path, which few find, and have the Holy Spirit as our guide, then we will not be deceived by Satan or his servants.
> 
> Sabbath observance is for us.  Like praying and feasting in the scriptures, it brings us closer to God.  It strengthens us and protects us from the fiery darts of the evil adversary who roams about like a lion seeking whom he can devour. We are better able to avoid being his prey.  It's part of putting on the full armor of God.
> 
> When we use his grace as an excuse not to keep his commandment, then we are not in him, and we are in sin.  We are the servant who hides what the Lord freely gave him in the ground.  And we are one of the foolish virgins....



Lot of good points here.Thanks Hawg.I needed that brother.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 5, 2015)

hawglips said:


> It's not "law".   It's commandments.  The Lord loves us, so he gives us commandments.  If we obey them, we are happier, both in this life and eternity, and we qualify for the companionship of the Holy Ghost.  And if we are walking on the strait and narrow path, which few find, and have the Holy Spirit as our guide, then we will not be deceived by Satan or his servants.
> 
> Sabbath observance is for us.  Like praying and feasting in the scriptures, it brings us closer to God.  It strengthens us and protects us from the fiery darts of the evil adversary who roams about like a lion seeking whom he can devour. We are better able to avoid being his prey.  It's part of putting on the full armor of God.
> 
> When we use his grace as an excuse not to keep his commandment, then we are not in him, and we are in sin.  We are the servant who hides what the Lord freely gave him in the ground.  And we are one of the foolish virgins....



I don't think you understand. 
If you are yoked up with the Lord and led by the holy spirit, why do any of us need written commandments?
 Is it so we can point out our brothers sin? Show them in the book where they are doing wrong?
 If we are to truly keep the Sabbath then we will keep it just as it is written, on Saturdays. 

Jesus has fulfilled the purpose of the Sabbath.I find rest in Him every second of every day, and the ten commandments ( most of which no one would break if they are led by the Spirit, murder, stealing, coveting, etc.)
Were indeed part of Moses Law and was commanded to the Israelites of the old covenant.


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## welderguy (Dec 5, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think you understand.
> If you are yoked up with the Lord and led by the holy spirit, why do any of us need written commandments?
> Is it so we can point out our brothers sin? Show them in the book where they are doing wrong?



What then was Paul doing in 1 Cor.5:3 ?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2015)

I see it as becoming more spiritual, being lead by the Holy Spirit. The law is now within our hearts, we know what to do. We don't need the written Law that we couldn't follow anyway. 
The Law has shown us it's purpose. It was a curse. Jesus became that curse. 

Grace isn't an excuse, it's the answer. We repent or change our mind in believing we can make it by following the Law and realize we can't. We start believing Jesus is the answer.
When one has the Holy Spirit he wants to put off the old and put on the new.
When God calls and you choose Jesus, you have repented. You become crucified with Christ. Your slate is wiped clean. 

It's easy to see it both ways though. We've discussed Lordship Salvation vs Easy Believism a lot. Maybe it's a little of each or a combination of both. God only knows the struggle I've had with this Religious Rollercoaster.
I've finally realized Jesus removed that yoke for me and from me.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2015)

When a man claims to be under the law, he is claiming to be a non-Christian. When a man has Christ, he has fulfillment. The law kills. Christ gives life.

Live!


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## Israel (Dec 7, 2015)

It is to me a strange thing. In "observances" I, at least, find a pharisee willing to come forth, born of fear, born of faithlessness that never knows if his "observance" is sufficient. To this he is compelled to discover a more perfect way of observance...that is "observance" must now be defined by such and such, a less than that is insufficient, and yet...a "more" always seems to taunt him..."yes, you have gone this far...but you must go deeper". And out of such frustration with "himself"...he deals with others.

The seeing of the Lord, in whatever form, whatever situation, whatever circumstance...is never so. Unbidden, unconjured, un prescribed, he comes...never with warning, never with anything of myself that I might say "of course you had to "show up", Lord, I am engaged in so and so that makes me better at "seeing you".
To live...is Christ. 

And that life...is not "my own". I pray to see you, but my prayer is not what opens my eyes...it is that my eyes have been open to prayer. My total inescapable ability to do or be anything other than an ask-er. And I do not know one thing that makes me "better" at this...than total, irrefutable need. And the idea that I could even make myself more needy is laughable. Hilarious.

But...how will we trade His appearing...for things we are (or may be) told are necessary to cause him to? Many's the virgin that has traded her secret place to another when told "prove your love".


Far better may she be in ultimate circumstance were she to say..."no, I will wait on you for you to do so".
And to all other men desiring her secret place she shall be a scorn in her immovability. But, she waits.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 7, 2015)

hawglips said:


> It's not "law".   It's commandments.  The Lord loves us, so he gives us commandments.  If we obey them, we are happier, both in this life and eternity, and we qualify for the companionship of the Holy Ghost.  And if we are walking on the strait and narrow path, which few find, and have the Holy Spirit as our guide, then we will not be deceived by Satan or his servants.
> 
> Sabbath observance is for us.  Like praying and feasting in the scriptures, it brings us closer to God.  It strengthens us and protects us from the fiery darts of the evil adversary who roams about like a lion seeking whom he can devour. We are better able to avoid being his prey.  It's part of putting on the full armor of God.
> 
> When we use his grace as an excuse not to keep his commandment, then we are not in him, and we are in sin.  We are the servant who hides what the Lord freely gave him in the ground.  And we are one of the foolish virgins....



But is your faith that the Sabbath observance is a offering of fellowship and worship from the heart both God's fellowship and yours or as one useful way to mold a people or society?


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## hawglips (Dec 7, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think you understand.
> If you are yoked up with the Lord and led by the holy spirit, why do any of us need written commandments?



Because the Lord told us to obey them?  Because obeying them makes us happier?  Because of Matthew 25?

I think part of the problem is pretending to be or thinking we are yoked to the Lord, when we are not.  





hobbs27 said:


> Is it so we can point out our brothers sin? Show them in the book where they are doing wrong?



That would be disobeying one of the commandments.



hobbs27 said:


> Jesus has fulfilled the purpose of the Sabbath.I find rest in Him every second of every day, and the ten commandments ( most of which no one would break if they are led by the Spirit, murder, stealing, coveting, etc.)
> Were indeed part of Moses Law and was commanded to the Israelites of the old covenant.



Jesus said the Sabbath was for us.  That purpose is not fulfilled.

And there is a cause and effect here.  Being led by the Spirit is not likely when we are not trying to do his will, while seeking to do his will brings us the Spirit.


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## hawglips (Dec 7, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was teaching and did so a few other times that you can try to get to Heaven by keeping the Law or you can get to heaven by Himself.
> That if you choose the Law method, then good luck as it will be very,very hard if not impossible.
> 
> I mean if lust or hatred will keep me out of the Kingdom, all I can do is to be very thankful for grace.
> ...



I don't know what The Law is, but no one can get to Heaven by himself.  

I do think we need to do the things Christ has asked us to do, or we are in danger of the Matthew 25 negative outcomes...


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## hobbs27 (Dec 7, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Because the Lord told us to obey them?  Because obeying them makes us happier?  Because of Matthew 25?
> 
> I think part of the problem is pretending to be or thinking we are yoked to the Lord, when we are not.
> 
> ...



Everytime you said ( us) you were wrong. Those things were commanded to the Israelites , just as Adam was commanded not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge. That commandment was under the Adamic Covenant, not Moses Law, just as Moses Law does not pertain to ( us) we are under Christ's Law .


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 7, 2015)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27 View Post
Is it so we can point out our brothers sin? Show them in the book where they are doing wrong?




hawglips said:


> that would be disobeying one of the commandments.



I'm trying to see how this works in regards to the OP?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 7, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I don't know what The Law is, but no one can get to Heaven by himself.
> 
> I do think we need to do the things Christ has asked us to do, or we are in danger of the Matthew 25 negative outcomes...



In relation to Matthew 25, what about this?

34-36;
34"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 7, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I don't know what The Law is, but no one can get to Heaven by himself.
> 
> I do think we need to do the things Christ has asked us to do, or we are in danger of the Matthew 25 negative outcomes...



In relation to the Kingdom, how does acting unrighteous affect one's ability to enter? 

1 Corinthians 6:9-10

9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the 
kingdom of God. 

Romans 1:18
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 7, 2015)

Matthew 6:15
But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Does this mean that even as elected Christians we might be left out of the Kingdom?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 6:15
> But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
> 
> Does this mean that even as elected Christians we might be left out of the Kingdom?



Darn good question. Spring all kinds of questions. And I bet you held your self from asking them. This would make a great new tread. 

We could ask: What sin did the cross take away? Did the Jews petition for the forgiveness of sin other than by making atonement with a sacrificial lamb? What was sacrificial about offering a lamb? If we are saved by the blood alone are forgiving others and loving your enemies  work? Right up to, " If the law is writ in the hearts of those who are saved, why do they need to rely on scripture to shore up the law in their lives? etc...

Was Jesus forgiving of the scribes and Pharisees? Why did he forgive the soldiers under the cross and the thief at his side, but seemingly condemn spiritual authority of his day?
Did he forgive those who did not know they were sinning and not those who knew better and did not repent? Is a moral hypocrite that knows he is one worse off than one who does not know? etc... Oh, and is getting yourself to Sunday service a work?

Like I said, good question art.


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## Israel (Dec 8, 2015)

If sabbath observance were sufficient to preserve the world, or any corner of it... (at least according to the observance being of days and times)...it would beg the question...


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Darn good question. Spring all kinds of questions. And I bet you held your self from asking them. This would make a great new tread.
> 
> We could ask: What sin did the cross take away? Did the Jews petition for the forgiveness of sin other than by making atonement with a sacrificial lamb? What was sacrificial about offering a lamb? If we are saved by the blood alone are forgiving others and loving your enemies  work? Right up to, " If the law is writ in the hearts of those who are saved, why do they need to rely on scripture to shore up the law in their lives? etc...
> 
> ...



Yes and that was my point in asking. What sins did the cross take away? What about before the cross?
Why did Jesus forgive some and not others?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes and that was my point in asking. What sins did the cross take away? What about before the cross?
> Why did Jesus forgive some and not others?



We know that the Jews (as a society) were addicted to the world, they went on worldly binges via idols and sinful acts in spite of knowing they were"the chosen people". Their spiritual minds and hearts were formed by the customs of their society--religious and social but also by the customs and spiritual traditions which surrounded them.

They were formed from the outside in.

The difference with Christ, if we are to believe His doctrines, it is perhaps that pilgrims are formed from the inside out. So I could say what my lord did for my spiritual health is  to do away with what the world might teach about spiritual life, because that world was ever going astray ( hebrews), and He reoriented His nurture not from the world, but from the heavenly through baptism in Jesus ( rebirth) and the gift of the Holy Spirit as guide, direct and intimate, which is the Father and the Son now. 

So what sins were taken away?... maybe the sins of that old world which you and I were taken out of and into the new life we know.

I can leave you with this perhaps: According to the Jews I speak with Jews have always asked God for the forgiveness of their sins through independent prayer. Most sins, for which they repent of, are admitted and meditated on and petitioned in prayers. When they did temple sacrifices this was the case as it is now, in that they prayed and petitioned God for the forgiveness of sins throught prayer, but when they did temple sacrifice for certain sins  which they deemed severe injury to God and the people they offered also as part of repentance  a sacrificial lamb-- with no blemish.

Now this sacrifice of the lamb was a charity to the temple, priests etc...and was not really the cause for atonement or payment for sin. What made atonement possible was that the sinner had to confess his sin to the temple priest, admit it and repent of it and there after offer charity, AFTER he/she had  admitted ( recognized), confessed to and repented from the admitted sin! The offer of the lamb sacrifice alone without the admission of the sin and the will to repent was of no spiritual value according to the Jews I have talked with. The offer of the sacrifice was a sign and a very real act of a return to grace which follows from repentance ( change). It was an act to show a return to right standing with God--due repentance and change.

So if this is true, then Christ admitted the sins of the world and repented on our behalf and offered Himself as _charity_ as Lamb without blemish for you and me. And being our substitute His Grace is  now ours.

Do we still struggle with sin? Yes. We still struggle with our own sin and the sins of the world, but we are now the temple and the pilgrim. 

And so we do now as God informs us through Jesus. Alive in His grace we know when from Him we are distancing ourselves and not from the outside, but from the inside--from our very real communion in Christ-- that is in common and habitual union with Him independent of and away from the world and the many varied things it might have to teach.


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## hawglips (Dec 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 6:15
> But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
> 
> Does this mean that even as elected Christians we might be left out of the Kingdom?



I think that's the central message of Matthew 25.


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## BAR308 (Dec 29, 2015)

the OT sabbath day of rest was changed to a 365 day a year rest. the OT sabbath was natural and the NT sabbath is spiritual. Jesus started it in His teachings and Paul gave more details in heb 3 and 4... we rest from our works 365x a year... and take on the works of Christ or the law of Christ. we do the first works prepared from the beginning from the power (grace) of God... not on our own. the OT sabbath was not given to us just as sacrifing animals wasnt... why people want to go back to the OT and pick and choose this and that to 'keep'??? i'll never know. must have to do with all the false churches sitting on all the street corners who are part of the harlot churches... the Nicolaitan "system"...


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## hawglips (Dec 30, 2015)

Seems to me that Christ's works are stricter than the Mosaic Law of the OT.  It would be a lot easier, and more of us would be saved if we could go back to those simple rules instead of having to do the works Christ commanded of us.  

In OT times, those 5 foolish virgins would have been let into the wedding.  That servant who hid his talent would have been fine.  The goats who didn't go out of their way to take care of their neighbor would have not been cast into the fire.   That rich man who obeyed all of the commandments he'd been taught but didn't follow Christ's invitation to sell all he had and come follow Him would have not gone away sorrowful.  Those of us merely lusting upon a woman or being angry at our brother would be just fine, instead of being in danger of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation.  

Seems to me that too many of us look for excuses not to give our hearts truly to Him, but try to keep one foot in Babylon; and as a result walk around with empty lamps, talents buried, and herding with goats.  Too many of us cry "Lord, Lord" but do not the things which he says - because we've been taught that saying "Lord, Lord" is good enough.  Too many of us draw near to Him with our lips but our hearts are far from Him. 

I was just studying in Revelation and thought of this discussion as I read His words to the 7 churches of Asia in chapters 2 and 3.  Those were not words to non-believers, but words to those of His church that professed Him and had been baptized and born again, and had taken upon themselves His name.

He took note of their "works" and made the connection between those works done by those of His church and salvation:
2:2 "I know thy works..."
2:5 "...do the first works..."
2:7 "...To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life..."
2:9 "I know thy works..."
2:11 "...he that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death..."
2:13 "I know thy works..."
2:17 "To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna..."
2:19 "I know thy works..."
2:23 "...I will give unto every one of you according to your works."
2:26  "...he that overcometh and keepeth my works unto the end..."
3:1 "...I know they works..."
3:2 "I have not found they works perfect before God..."
3:3 "Remember therefore how thou has received and heard, and hold fast, and repent."
3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but will confess his name before my Father and before His angels."
3:8 "I know thy works... has kept my word..."
3:12 "Him that overcometh will make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out:"
3:15-16 "I know thy works...because thou art lukewarm...I will spue thee out of my mouth."
3:21 "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne..."

And in later chapters,
9:20 "...the men which...repented not of the works of their hands..."
18:6 "...reward her...according to her works..."
20:12 "...the dead...were judged...according to their works."
20:13 "...the dead...were judged every man according to their works."
21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

I suspect that instead of building our houses on the rock of Christ, we too often build our houses on the sands of those voices that encourage us to go to sleep instead of taking care that our lamps are filled with oil; to bury what He has freely given us instead of actively seeking to magnify and multiply it; to stay inside our convenient and comfortable dens of relaxation instead of actively reaching out to the least of these our brethren, and loving God with all our hearts, minds and strength.  

And I think many of us in the church will be surprised to hear Him say those words in Matthew 25 - "I know you not...Thou wicked and slothful servant.... Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."


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## hobbs27 (Dec 30, 2015)

I think more people will be in heaven than some people think.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2015)

hawglips said:


> And I think many of us in the church will be surprised to hear Him say those words in Matthew 25 - "I know you not...Thou wicked and slothful servant.... Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."



If we all came from Heaven, why would Father make it so hard for us to return home? If none of us are good and we all fall short of God's glory, why not just accept Father's way to get home?

Father said believe that you can't make it back home by works. You must believe that I chose and sent Jesus as a Savior from your sin. If you can stop sinning and make it home that way, try it. Try it and I'll judge you that way. 

The choice is yours, try it the Law way or try it the Jesus way.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 31, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Seems to me that Christ's works are stricter than the Mosaic Law of the OT.  It would be a lot easier, and more of us would be saved if we could go back to those simple rules instead of having to do the works Christ commanded of us.
> 
> In OT times, those 5 foolish virgins would have been let into the wedding.  That servant who hid his talent would have been fine.  The goats who didn't go out of their way to take care of their neighbor would have not been cast into the fire.   That rich man who obeyed all of the commandments he'd been taught but didn't follow Christ's invitation to sell all he had and come follow Him would have not gone away sorrowful.  Those of us merely lusting upon a woman or being angry at our brother would be just fine, instead of being in danger of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredation.
> 
> ...





COLOR="Blue"]And I think many of us in the church will be surprised to hear Him say those words in Matthew 25 - "I know you not...Thou wicked and slothful servant.... Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels."[/

Maybe this is exactly why many don't even bother with church anymore. They are not unlike you in thinking  in that  "many of us in the church" will be surprised to hear Him say, "ye cursed".

I mean why  bother in such a church where one portion of it views the other portion cursed and each portion ( faction) claiming to own the mind of Christ?

Is this truly the body of Christ? a body warring against itself? Rife with duality, duplicity, psychologically ill?

I personally think many  in "the church" are not in the church at all and have just spinned themselves one to fit their sins in order to hide them.

I feel very sad for the children of these people, they would be better off as pagans meeting Jesus for the first time and not having to fight the baptisms, spins and the works of their parents. And oddly enough these are the children "the church" is creating today: pagans.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 31, 2015)

Pagan's or just comforted and happy atheist's?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 31, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Pagan's or just comforted and happy atheist's?



Yea, same difference maybe. The chemistry gods and the clay gods are probably related. 

But really. If you were bent to justify  polygamy for instance, for example,  as not sinful in the new christian context in the 16th century, chances are not one of the existing christian sects and denominations would welcome you and you would be left to "re-form"  a whole new paradigm, from camp to kit.

Same idea with the Christian Kingdom... if for some reason some church dignitary  decided that it, the Kingdom, was not in "you" and rather in days far off, what denomination would welcome such novel witness  in the 16th century?


Once upon a time there were three popes at the same time ( bad form in my estimation) . And possibly this really messed people up--- in many different ways. The church has not recovered yet perhaps and this happened looooooooooog ago.... We have perhaps even longer to go before it starts to settle down. Think of the how   the long ago  original sin  still influences the lives of man... We have perhaps yet a long haul to go...as the body of Christ, which in its present form is super separated joint from joint.


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## welderguy (Jan 9, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> In relation to the Kingdom, how does acting unrighteous affect one's ability to enter?
> 
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
> 
> ...



This is not speaking of going to heaven.If it were,none would go because we were all guilty of these things.

It is speaking of living in the Kingdom here on earth(the Kingdom that's within our hearts),in this life.Going in at the narrow gate,not the wide gate.

If we have been called by the Spirit,even though it's still possible for us to do these sin in our rebellion,God still loves us.That's why He will scourge us. "He scourgest every son whom He receivest".Heb 12:6-11


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## Mako22 (Jan 9, 2016)

Sunday isn't the Sabbath.


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## Mako22 (Jan 9, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I think more people will be in heaven than some people think.



I think more people will be in the alternative place than some people think.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2016)

Woodsman69 said:


> I think more people will be in the alternative place than some people think.



Due to salvation being such a complex process? When you read 
1 Corinthians 6:9-10, do you see it as a list of people who want make it to the Kingdom?


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## Mako22 (Jan 10, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Due to salvation being such a complex process? When you read
> 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, do you see it as a list of people who want make it to the Kingdom?



Nothing complex about salvation at all and the Word makes that perfectly clear.


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## Bama4me (Jan 12, 2016)

ryanh487 said:


> There were two kinds of sabbaths.
> 
> THE Sabbath of the 4th commandment
> 
> ...



While I'm not OK with having other gods, worshipping idols, murder, adultery, etc... I don't obey those ideas because they're part of the 10 Commandments.  I follow 9 of the 10 commandments because in one way or another, those 9 are restated in the law of Christ.  Only one, the Sabbath regulation, is not restated in the New Covenant.

The law of Moses, which the 10 Commandments is a part of, was never designed by God to be perpetual until the end of time.  In Jeremiah 31:31-34, the prophet predicted a time would come when a "new covenant" would be established with the people of God.  That law, according to Hebrews 8, is the covenant of Jesus Christ.  According to Colossians 2:14, the law of Moses was nailed to the cross of Christ... effectively abolishing it.  The law of Moses (including the 10 Commandments) had a purpose... Galatians 3:21-29 indicates the law served as a "guardian" (schoolmaster) to bring people to Jesus Christ.

If you doubt these things, simply read Galatians 1:6-10 and then turn and read 5:1-6.  These Christians were turning away from the true gospel to something else.  Part of the "something else" was the doctrine that Christian males must be circumcised (a requirement of the law) in order to be pleasing to God.  Listen to the progression there...
*  Requiring circumcision returned to a "yoke of slavery"
*  Accepting circumcision = Christ is of "no advantage"
*  Accepting circumcision = obey ALL of the law of Moses
*  "Justified by law of Moses" = "severed from Christ"
*  "Justified by law of Moses" = "fallen from grace"
*  Circumcision counts for nothing "in Christ Jesus"

I don't know how Scripture can be any plainer that the law of Moses is not binding upon people today.  IF someone says it is... then as the poster above suggested, there are a LOT of things that people are overlooking.  Among them... all males must travel to Jerusalem three times annually for the three great feasts; we must continue to offer animal sacrifices and observe the Day of Atonement; we must give a tenth of our income every year to priests/Levites; we must abstain from many different foods (including pork).  When you start thinking about the 600+ laws included in the Mosaical code, you begin to understand why Galatians 5:1 says it's "a yoke of slavery".


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## BAR308 (Jan 18, 2016)

hawglips said:


> It would be a lot easier, and more of us would be saved if we could go back to those simple rules instead of having to do the works Christ commanded of us.



pure heresy...


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