# Need advice from canoe experts.



## aznflycaster (Jan 12, 2012)

I need advice on a 2 person canoe. I have experience with kayaks and currently own an OT 119 solo canoe. I currently stand and fish in the 119 canoe so my balance is decent, not sure about my new lady friends since she has never been in a canoe. 99.9% of the time we will be in the river or creeks fishing around shoals. With out any experience with the bigger canoes I wonder what length would be better 14 or 16 ft?  Mainly looking for light weight and stable canoe that has enough room for her to be comfortable in the front.


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## breampole (Jan 12, 2012)

Friend of mine bought an Old Town Camper and loves it.  I think it is 16 ft.  I had a 17 ft canoe (grumman) which I paddled solo putting some weight in the front and loved it.  I think you would be fine with 16 ft.


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## wgatling (Jan 14, 2012)

*Canoe for two*

The real answer is to buy two canoes. Everyone will be happier.

The answer you are looking for is longer is better because it will be easier to move through the water. Everyone is patient and willing to go slow for the first 10 minutes. After that, it starts to become work.

Ignore stability. This isn't your first time on the water. When you first get in the boat, go straight to your knees with them spread as far apart as possible. This will be your stability. You can sit down later after everybody is feeling more comfortable. 

Let me know and you can borrow my Discovery 158. (near Kennesaw)

Also check Gapaddle.com for trips that would give her a better sense of security.

If you can tolerate each other in a tandem canoe, she is a keeper!


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## FERAL ONE (Jan 15, 2012)

we loved our discovery 169. it was a bit heavy to tote around but on the water it was a dream.  i had an osprey that i liked really well (and sold like a big dummy)  but i admit the extra couple feet sure were nice for 2 people fishing.


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## justrun (Jan 15, 2012)

Those pics makes want to go out right now and get one.  Very nice.


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## FERAL ONE (Jan 15, 2012)

that first one was a june trip to the okefenokee. 1 way 11 miles !!! i will NEVER do that again in hot weather but i sure would like to do it in april or october !!!


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## kenmorrow (Jan 17, 2012)

If you're really, really sure you want to do this:  fiberglass...or even Kevlar lay ups.  You'll hate me when you write the check and love me every time you lift the boat, because 16-17' is the only way to go and the lighter the better.


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## justrun (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm looking at the Native Watercraft Ultimate 14.5 Tandem Kayak for my first purchase.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 17, 2012)

justrun said:


> I'm looking at the Native Watercraft Ultimate 14.5 Tandem Kayak for my first purchase.



Well, if you want a _really heavy_, very short, tandem canoe that's one way you could go.  You can get a lot more bang for the buck out of an actual canoe from a name brand tandem canoe in the 16-17' range and then custom rig it for fishing.  It will come in much lighter, carry far more, be just as stable, and provide a lot more versatility.


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## justrun (Jan 17, 2012)

kenmorrow said:


> Well, if you want a _really heavy_ tandem canoe that's one way you could go.



74lbs out of the box.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes, I know.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 17, 2012)

Let me educate you (and others) just a bit...

Here is a cheap option that uses a chop-gun layup process that results in canoes that are still relatively heavy.  Nothing wrong with their boats other than they are "economy" model fiberglass canoes:  http://www.indianrivercanoemfg.com/specs.htm

You will notice the American is 16' and weighs 65 lbs., with a recommended load capacity of 600 lbs.  It sells to the customer for $540...less than 1/2 the price of your Native Ultimate 14.5  You can do a LOT of custom rigging for $700!

The next example is one of the highest quality custom lay-up canoe companies in the world, Wenonah.  I've selected their tandem 14' fisherman because it is closest to the Native Ultimate 14.5 Tandem:  http://www.wenonah.com/products/tem...p?IID=20&SID=e62523973a96d9b526c2e47eb3d088d5

Note that in Rotomolded Royalex (same as the Native Ultimate) the boat weighs 15 lbs less at the same length and costs about the same as a base model Native Ultimate.  In a Kevlar custom lay-up, you can get the weight down to HALF that of the Native Ultimate.  Again, rigging possibilities are endless and you have tons more cockpit space in the boat, providing far more adaptability.

People simply think canoes have lost their "sex appeal."  But I've got to tell you that when you run class 4 white water in a canoe, all the kayak folks think you're pretty darn "hot!"  LOL  Minivans aren't sexy either, but it really comes down to what is going to give you the greatest enjoyment over the longest life span for your investment.  Screw all that image and marketing hype!

You may still choose the Native, but choose from a well-informed position and have fun!


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## Randy (Jan 17, 2012)

The tunnel hull on the Native can be an issue on the rocks in rivers.


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## justrun (Jan 17, 2012)

kenmorrow said:


> Let me educate you (and others) just a bit...
> 
> Here is a cheap option that uses a chop-gun layup process that results in canoes that are still relatively heavy.  Nothing wrong with their boats other than they are "economy" model fiberglass canoes:  http://www.indianrivercanoemfg.com/specs.htm
> 
> ...



Which one of the two above listed would you recommend for the two scenarios? 

1) fishing with 5'11 240 Lbs dad and 10 y/o son.
2) same dad sneaking out alone


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## SASS249 (Jan 17, 2012)

All boats are compromises.  I have an Old Town Discovery 158 I have paddled for over 20 years.  At 80 pounds it is not exactly light.  It is a wide, stable and pretty slow boat.  I have paddled a huge variety of canoes, and for my money the Discovery is hard to beat.  New at $900.00 I consider it pricey, but you often find them used for much less.  

I have put that boat on everything to Class IV whitewater to the Okefenokee, and I usually paddle solo.  The best thing it has going for it is that it is darn near indestructible.  I have drug it across countless shoals and down trees with all that is needed is an occasional wax job to fill in the scratches.  It is a REALLY stable canoe and for someone who has no experience is a good choice.  Plenty of room for two people and as much gear as you can pile in it  I used it canoe camping all over the southeast and while it is slow, due to the short length and wide bottom, for me the stability to stand up and paddle makes it worthwhile.

aznflycaster I am a fair distance from Columbus, but you are welcome to come up hereand paddle the 158 anytime.  In fact you can run the metro section of the Hooch just a few minutes from my house.

As far as I am concerned it is the pickup truck of the canoe world.  Not flashy, and not the best for a specific situation, but a good all round get it done boat.

I liked it so much that when I started building my own strip boats I pretty much duplicated the lines in the boat I now use for canoe camping.

Kayaks are great, but for me if I am going to spend 8-10 hours on the water the comfort of the canoe makes it a winner.

aznflycaster I am a ways fromColumbus, but if you want to come up here and paddle the 158 the Metro section of the hooch is only a few minutes from my house.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 17, 2012)

I'm not recommending either of these boats, they're sort of the ends of the spectrum (although Wenonah is what I consider the end of the affordable range, not the end of the high end-high performance range).

There are a lot of great canoes out there that would suit your needs.  Your son is going to grow quickly at his age, and a good boat should last until he is an adult...and beyond.  So the Wenonah 14' Fisherman would be out for me.  I'd be looking at 16' boats that will carry 2 adults.  It's not hard to handle them solo with a bit of ballast in the bow and proper rigging.  They work great, especially if you keep the weight down for solo portaging, launching, and car topping.

The Indian River American is a great value, but a bit "rough around the edges."  A great option is a Georgia-based custom lay-up company called Class Five that builds original Mohawk fiberglass pressure bag lay-ups.  http://www.classfiveboats.com  The Blazer 16 is $665 in deluxe trim!  This is a fine and proven canoe that has been "reborn" by Class Five in North GA.

One of the real advantages of fiberglass is the ability to repair it vs. rotomolded plastics like Royalex.  You'll find a lot of folks with fiberglass canoes that are 20-30 years old that look great.  You won't find many 20 year old Royalex canoes.  It breaks down with exposure to UV and other chemicals (in water and air) over time, and has a max life span.  That doesn't mean Royalex isn't a good material choice for what it is good for.  If you're going to be scraping rocks all the time, any boat is going to have a short life span.  That's why kayaks and whitewater canoes were mostly made of Royalex from the day it came along.  It absorbs a ton of shock, and gouges and scrapes are the same color as the surface.  It's also about the same material input cost (lower labor cost) as fiberglass.


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## Randy (Jan 17, 2012)

You keep saying royalex but I think you mean polyethylene.  Royalex is thermomolded not rotomolded and it is three layer or more process not a thru color.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 17, 2012)

I've got a horrible head cold and am communicating "through the fog."  Yes...should just be saying "plastic boats" to include the both thermo and roto molded plastic hulls.  Thanks for calling my attention to it.


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## justrun (Jan 17, 2012)

Weight and cost are factors but "the" deciding factors.  Functionality is the most important factor.

I will be phasing in the boats into the family.  First it's going to  be a multi-purpose boat that will take me and Ethan fishing mostly with a little floating around time to time.  It has to be able to be used solo by me without much modification or ballasting.  I will later pass this boat to the wife to be able to paddle with Ethan while I get my own fishing canoe/kayak.  That will give me a solo boat that I don't have to move stuff around whenever I get a chance to sneak out while he is in school or whatever.

We have a place in Okaloosa that we go to a few times a year so if I can take a boat with me and toss in the surf it would be a bonus.  It's not really a part of the decision but only a bonus if that can work.

I hope this makes sense to where I am headed so that you guys can keep providing experienced feedback.  All is appreciated.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 18, 2012)

There used to be some good solo-tandem 15.5's and 16's on the market, but they're very rare and expensive nowadays.  They're usually made to order, but there may be one or two out there I'm not thinking of.  That would be ideal if the price is right, but I didn't mention it because of what I said about cost and availability.

So I think your best bets will be a 16' tandem for now and add a solo kayak or solo fishing canoe later.  FYI, this is the way Randy and I both roll:  we use both kayaks and canoes, depending on which is best for what situation.  There is no "best overall."  But either get a real kayak or a real canoe.  The Native Ultimate is just an over-priced overweight canoe made by a kayak company.  I've paddled  and fished from several of them, and I'm just not a fan.  The accessory system sucks big time!  The seat is fairly decent, but the buckles wear quickly and become difficult to operate smoothly (esp with one hand).  The boat paddles pretty well, but is not as stable as a decent canoe that paddles even better for 1/4 the cost (Indian Rivers, Mohawks, etc.).

That's my 2 cents.


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## justrun (Jan 18, 2012)

kenmorrow said:


> There used to be some good solo-tandem 15.5's and 16's on the market, but they're very rare and expensive nowadays.  They're usually made to order, but there may be one or two out there I'm not thinking of.  That would be ideal if the price is right, but I didn't mention it because of what I said about cost and availability.
> 
> So I think your best bets will be a 16' tandem for now and add a solo kayak or solo fishing canoe later.  FYI, this is the way Randy and I both roll:  we use both kayaks and canoes, depending on which is best for what situation.  There is no "best overall."  But either get a real kayak or a real canoe.  The Native Ultimate is just an over-priced overweight canoe made by a kayak company.  I've paddled  and fished from several of them, and I'm just not a fan.  The accessory system sucks big time!  The seat is fairly decent, but the buckles wear quickly and become difficult to operate smoothly (esp with one hand).  The boat paddles pretty well, but is not as stable as a decent canoe that paddles even better for 1/4 the cost (Indian Rivers, Mohawks, etc.).
> 
> That's my 2 cents.



I really appreciate the input.


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## allenww (Jan 18, 2012)

*Canoeing w/a female*

I have paddled with my wife for forty years in a Grumman square stern.   If you haven't bought, and your budget is significant, you oughta at least think about it. 

Heavy to portage, this canoe will carry your girl, your picnic (it isn't lunch with a female), your fishing gear, and
the stuff she needs to be satisfied for a day.  

It is so stable that she will be comfortable and not afraid, and therefore doesn't mind going which means more time on the water.   And if you just have to stand up, you can sit her on the floor facing you and it will be stable as a pontoon boat. 

After I got out of the service we got a two horse for it,  which really extends the range and makes lake fishing
a lot more fun.  Eventually we added a trailer for it which also carried the kids' bikes.  (You can still get those  bolt together trailers for the same price I paid.  Go to a welding shop and get a longer 4 inch box beam to replace the original tongue).

After the heart attack I got a 40lb Royalex.  But when my wife goes, we still break out the Grumman.  Best money I ever spent on recreation. 

wa


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## Corey (Jan 18, 2012)

What about a Madriver Canoe? 

Its a hybred between a kayak and a canoe and I have heard they are pretty dang stable. 

Room for the whole fam and you can paddle solo from the middle seat. 

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p...d=11552935&cp=4406646.4413993.4417832.4417833


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## justrun (Jan 18, 2012)

Corey said:


> What about a Madriver Canoe?
> 
> Its a hybred between a kayak and a canoe and I have heard they are pretty dang stable.
> 
> http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/p...d=11552935&cp=4406646.4413993.4417832.4417833



There is a madriver on craigslist right now.  I was going to ask about them also.  Are they any good?


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## kenmorrow (Jan 18, 2012)

Madriver Canoe is heavy as Edited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove Profanity and you'll see a LOT of them for resale on the classifieds that are only a year or two old.  That should tell you all you need to know.

If you can trailer those Grummans, they're not bad boats for tandem flat river runners.  Just remember:  square stern canoes are squirrely when it comes to handling (as a paddle craft) and they only go in one direction.  So they aren't considered maneuverable.  They're far more akin to river skiffs and poke boats than they are to traditional canoes.  But...once again...they have their place and their strengths.


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## justrun (Jan 18, 2012)

We were just talking about craigslist.. it's the place to go to find stuff that either $#(@ed or that simply didn't work.  I know that's not true for everything on there but if you keep seeing something over and over take it as a hint.


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## kenmorrow (Jan 18, 2012)

You can make some good buys on there now and then, but you are basically correct.  I recently sold 2 kayaks to clear out the space and offset costs for my new Freedom Hawk Pathfinders.  I loved both of those other boats, but I made my reasons for selling very clear.  By signing the Freedom Hawk pro staff contract, I agreed not to use other kayaks (except for fast river/whitewater where the FH's are inappropriate).  I sold both right away to people who knew what they were looking for.  But when you see a bunch of the same stuff over and over and it ain't very old, that should definitely send up a red flag, whether on CL, eBay, or any classifieds...or the combination of all of them.

I'll tell you one other thing:  winter is buyers' season.  People sell boats and few people buys boats during the winter.  Boat mfgs don't move many boats during the winter.  Most shut down production in the late Fall and start back up again after the new year to meet Spring's demand from dealers in advance of late Spring and Summer sales.  That's the business cycle.  The resale market follows a similar trend.  It's much like motorcycles.  People keep their bikes until cold weather and then try to sell them, but nobody to speak of is interested in buying a bike until the weather starts to warm up.


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## Corey (Jan 18, 2012)

kenmorrow said:


> Madriver Canoe is heavy as Edited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove Profanity and you'll see a LOT of them for resale on the classifieds that are only a year or two old.  That should tell you all you need to know.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## justrun (Jan 18, 2012)

Corey said:


> kenmorrow said:
> 
> 
> > Madriver Canoe is heavy as Edited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove ProfanityEdited To Remove Profanity and you'll see a LOT of them for resale on the classifieds that are only a year or two old.  That should tell you all you need to know.
> ...


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## Corey (Jan 18, 2012)

You know the old saying opinions are like  "O" everyone’s has 
them so just find something and buy it. If you don’t like it put 
it on craigslist


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## justrun (Jan 18, 2012)

Corey said:


> You know the old saying opinions are like  "O" everyone’s has
> them so just find something and buy it. If you don’t like it put
> it on craigslist



That's funny.


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