# Let's Talk About Jesus



## dexrusjak (Feb 4, 2011)

What do you belive about Jesus?

a. Never existed.
b. Existed but was nothing like the Jesus of the Bible.
c. Existed and did some things attributed to him in the Bible, just none of the miracles.
d. Existed and was exactly as the Bible says he was and did all the things the Bible says he did.
e. Other

Why?


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

D.

Summary

Outline 
He meant it non-literally, mystically (1) 
He meant it literally 
It is false 
He knew it was false. He was either a liar (2) or a noble liar (3) 
He didn't know it was false. He was honestly mistaken (4) or a lunatic (5) 
It is true (6)


1.He meant it non-literally, mystically. Did Jesus claim to be God in a non-literal, mystical sense?


He made a point of explaining his teachings to his disciples 
His claims (see above) do not lend themselves to the mystical, guru interpretation 
He claims to have come to fulfill the Old Testament not destroy it 
He had no way of learning eastern religions. 
He was Jewish and his teachings differ to the teachings of gurus / eastern philosophies. 
Public law & public scripture vs private, individual, inner experience 
God is distinct from the world vs we and everything else in the world is God 
God is a person vs individuality, selfhood is the supreme illusion 
Fill mind with thoughts of God & His Laws vs empty mind and become one with everything 
Time and matter are real created by God vs time and history are unreal, illusory 
God is an active initiator vs God is passive. We find him, not us 
God is moral, righteous, holy, hates evil vs God is amoral, has no will, law or preferences 
God will judge sin, results in separation vs no sin, no separation from God, no judgement


2.Was Jesus a liar? 


He had the wrong psychological profile 
There is no conceivable motive for his lie 
He could not have hoped that his lie would be successful 
How could he have invented and maintained the lie? 
If Jesus was only a man and claimed to be God, was He then an atheist himself? 
How did he manage to pass on high standards of truth? 
We would have to conclude that he was therefore a hypocrite, evil and a fool 


3.Was Jesus a noble liar? 


If he was so noble then why did he choose the ignoble method of trickery to get people to follow him? 
If he was so noble then why did He claim to be able to heal people when he could not? 
It would be much more difficult to get Jews to believe a human was God incarnate than it would be to get them to adopt morally superior principles 
Since his teachings were based on a true understanding on the Old Testament, what need was there to go as far as trickery and blasphemy? 
Why would Jesus forfeit his salvation for the sake of teachings (apart from his claim to be God) that were not that radical to first century Jews 
If Jesus' main concern was to get people into the kingdom of God, then this would have been the worst way to do it 
Who in history has gone to their death for the sake of something like this that they knew was a lie? (very different to cases e.g. noble people who hid Jews from the Nazis)


4.Was Jesus honestly mistaken?


Considering Jesus' claims, proof that he was mistaken would be clearly evident 
Where in history was there an honestly mistaken messiah who made the claims that Jesus did, and had the degree of success that Jesus did? 
No Jew could sincerely think that they were God 
How does one come to believe, or make a mistake of this nature? To actually believe that you are God? 
There is no evidence that Jesus did make such a mistake, or even doubted what he believed. 
To make the claims that Jesus did, you would have to be a lunatic 


5.Was Jesus a lunatic? 


Because the psychological profiles of lunatics and Jesus are opposite (egotism, inflexibility, dullness, predictability, inability to understand and love others as they really are, inability to creatively relate to others, unbalanced, paranoia or schizophrenia, rash, impulsive, lack wisdom - this is the polar opposite to Jesus) 
Someone with a 'divinity complex' would be incapable of sound rational thought on moral issues 
How could a lunatic maintain from the beginning to the end, the purest and noblest character known in history without and any indication of insanity? 
The reaction of others was not that of a reaction to a lunatic 
Someone with the 'divinity complex' would be obviously raving mad and thus incapable of influencing people. 
We would have to conclude that the expert of human nature who knew how to live the proper life did not understand himself properly 


6.Was Jesus who he claimed to be? 


It is possible as it has no internal or external consistencies 
It is probable as God could well have done this 
It works, having transformed lives 
It gives the greatest hope, and meaning and purpose to human life 
It is supported by the resurrection 
It is supported by Old Testament Prophecies 
The New Testament, which is highly reliable, supports this conclusion 
It is the only rational, honest alternative. Data and argument compel us to it 

This was a copy and past, its a good start.


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## dexrusjak (Feb 4, 2011)

Source?


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> Source?



http://www.knowwhatyoubelieve.com/

The main question came from the apologetics study bible.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2011)

If you apply the same standards to the Mormon story of the prophet Joseph Smith, I wonder just how clear-cut your result will be?


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> If you apply the same standards to the Mormon story of the prophet Joseph Smith, I wonder just how clear-cut your result will be?



Joseph Smith didnt claim to be God, he claimed to be a prophet, so I wouldn't use the same standards to compare the two.  Mr. Smith also did not meet the standards of the prophets of the Bible. So IMO he's out of the equation when it comes to prophets of the living God.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2011)

I know it isn't the same scenerio, but you could apply some of this reasoning to his claims.  If his claims are lies, and if he himself believed his story, and if he was just crazy, etc.


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I just picked # 6.
> 
> 6.Was (Joseph Smith) who he claimed to be?
> 
> ...





HawgJawl said:


> I know it isn't the same scenerio, but you could apply some of this reasoning to his claims.  If his claims are lies, and if he himself believed his story, and if he was just crazy, etc.



All the parts in red would disqualify the Jdog.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> D.
> 
> 2.Was Smith a liar?
> 
> ...



In regard to lies and lunacy


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> In regard to lies and lunacy



If #6 doesnt fit why would we try to fit JS into the lies and lunacy catagories? If one of the catagories is false about someone then the rest of the #'s have no relavancy.


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

http://carm.org/false-prophecies-of-joseph-smith

BTW how much money did Smith make in his lifetime?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 4, 2011)

I'm not defending Joseph Smith.  I'm just debating for sport.
But if I posted a list of qualifying criteria that applied specifically to Joseph Smith, some of it would not apply to Jesus.


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## stringmusic (Feb 4, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not defending Joseph Smith.  I'm just debating for sport.
> But if I posted a list of qualifying criteria that applied specifically to Joseph Smith, some of it would not apply to Jesus.



Correct, but the qualifying criteria that applies to Jesus makes Him a Savior. The criteria that seperated JS from Jesus would'nt be worth the read.


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## JFS (Feb 4, 2011)

7.  Why bother debating the application of false dichotomies to probable fiction?


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## vowell462 (Feb 4, 2011)

b. He may have existed, who knows what else.


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## chicken cow (Feb 4, 2011)

If someone does not Believe the Bible is Truth and it is False, I would not expect them to Believe In Jesus anyway. It is the Foundation of Christianity. Science will never prove Jesus Exsisted or anything in the Bible was true anyway. This is a never ending arguement that has lasted Century's.


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## JFS (Feb 4, 2011)

Why would anyone believe the Bible?


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## chicken cow (Feb 4, 2011)

Why would anyone Believe anything anyone says that doesnt have any evidence to prove it? Is the world 10,000 year old or 10,000,000 who knows for sure?


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## JFS (Feb 4, 2011)

chicken cow said:


> Is the world 10,000 year old or 10,000,000 who knows for sure?



4.5 Billion.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 6, 2011)

Hello Dex, I believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be. A man sent by God. His miracles were so that we would believe that God sent him. Just as God did with Moses in Ex 4. Jesus was a prophet likened to Moses. In John, Jesus is recorded as saying "at least believe on the evidence of the miracles".


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## pnome (Feb 6, 2011)

I'm going with C.


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2011)

pnome said:


> I'm going with C.



why would the prophets record the miracles if they never happened?


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## pnome (Feb 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> why would the prophets record the miracles if they never happened?



So they could create a religion.  Or maybe they believed they actually did happen.  Who knows?

It doesn't really matter what their motivation was.  The Bible is the only source for information on these miracles and I'm not about to believe something so extraordinary based on only one source.  And an ancient one at that.  No sir.  I'm gonna have to see them for myself.

A man living and preaching in that region at that time, who taught a message of humility and kindness.  That I can believe without hardly any evidence at all.  The man's name was Jesus?  OK.  No problem, I'll take the Bible's word for it. He had all these great things to say?  Sure I'll believe Jesus said them.  He was the actual son of the creator of the universe? Hold on a second there.....


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 7, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Dex, I believe that Jesus is who he claimed to be. A man sent by God. His miracles were so that we would believe that God sent him. Just as God did with Moses in Ex 4. Jesus was a prophet likened to Moses. In John, Jesus is recorded as saying "at least believe on the evidence of the miracles".



What evidence of miracles do you have, other than what some men wrote down?


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What evidence of miracles do you have, other than what some men(who were writing the same things as other prophets before them wrote, even though there was, in some cases, a 1500 year gap, and they had no way of communicating across continents. Who were also willing to give up everything and lay there life down to share with others what they witnessed.) wrote down?



These are just a few extras I threw in.


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2011)

pnome said:


> So they could create a religion.


They already had a "religion", there wouldn't have been much gain in starting a new one.



> Or maybe they believed they actually did happen.  Who knows?


I think its pretty obvious, by what was wriiten, they did believe it actually happened.



> It doesn't really matter what their motivation was.


You criticize the bible, yet will not entertain the motivation behind the writtings? Seems that would be a good starting point for your scrutiny.




> The Bible is the only source for information on these miracles and I'm not about to believe something so extraordinary based on only one source.


Here is another source, look outside.




> I'm gonna have to see them for myself.


You have.



> A man living and preaching in that region at that time, who taught a message of humility and kindness.


Jesus' main message was not of humility and kindness. It was one of salvation, and how to obtain it. One cannot place Jesus in the catagory of "just a good guy who taught humility and kindness", He either was who He claim to be, or He was a stark raving lunatic.


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## JFS (Feb 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> One cannot place Jesus in the catagory of "just a good guy who taught humility and kindness", He either was who He claim to be, or He was a stark raving lunatic.



IMHO "cannot" is too strong a word.   Your proposition assumes that we know what he claimed.  For example, how do we not know he wasn't a good guy who taught humility and kindness but to whom some attached statements and claims that were subsequently believed by others?


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## pnome (Feb 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Here is another source, look outside.



Just looked outside.  I didn't see anything that said Jesus is the son of God.  What, exactly, am I supposed to be looking for?





> You have.



Sorry, but no, I haven't.



> He either was who He claim to be, or He was a stark raving lunatic.



False dichotomy.

The bible could be wrong about him.  Maybe he never claimed to be the son of God.  Maybe that was added in afterward to give the message more emphasis. Maybe the claim to divinity is really just a metaphor.  Maybe everything we think we know about him is wrong.  After all, there is only one source.  And it's credibility is already highly suspect.

Maybe he was crazy.  He wouldn't be the first crazy person to have some good ideas.

All of those things are orders of magnitude more likely then that he was the actual son of a mystical being that created the universe.


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2011)

JFS said:


> IMHO "cannot" is too strong a word.   Your proposition assumes that we know what he claimed.  For example, how do we not know he wasn't a good guy who taught humility and kindness but to whom some attached statements and claims that were subsequently believed by others?





pnome said:


> Just looked outside.  I didn't see anything that said Jesus is the son of God.  What, exactly, am I supposed to be looking for?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is there anything in this reality that either one of you will entertain as truth? Both of you can just keep going on and on and on, if your going to get anywhere with accepting any sort of theology(which may or may not be the case), you must accept something as truth.


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## pnome (Feb 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Is there anything in this reality that either one of you will entertain as truth? Both of you can just keep going on and on and on, if your going to get anywhere with accepting any sort of theology(which may or may not be the case), you must accept something as truth.



I do.  But in a different way than you might.

It's all about probabilities.  Not certainties.  

Example:  You see me one day and I've got a band-aid on my head and you ask "Hey, what happened to you?"

Reply A: Oh, I hit my head on my car door jam yesterday.

Do you need any more evidence to believe my story as the truth?  You can't be certain that I'm telling the truth.  I could have hit it on any number of things. 

Reply B: Oh, I was kidnapped by aliens and they preformed brain surgery on me to increase my intelligence so that they could communicate with me.

Do you need any more evidence to believe my story as the truth? You should!

Which is more likely?  A or B?  If I were you, I'd readily and easily believe A to be true, but I would need a little bit more evidence to accept B.


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2011)

pnome said:


> I do.  But in a different way than you might.
> 
> It's all about probabilities.  Not certainties.
> 
> ...



So nothing is certain in this world?


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## pnome (Feb 7, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> So nothing is certain in this world?



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

There is an absolute truth.  But we cannot be absolutely certain what it is.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 7, 2011)

pnome said:


> False dichotomy.
> 
> The bible could be wrong about him.  Maybe he never claimed to be the son of God.  Maybe that was added in afterward to give the message more emphasis. Maybe the claim to divinity is really just a metaphor.  Maybe everything we think we know about him is wrong.  After all, there is only one source.  And it's credibility is already highly suspect.
> 
> ...



If He had not made the claim of being Himself God, and sufficiently convinced His closest group of followers, is it even reasonable to think they would die for His lie?  That is just not plausible.  People might lie to avoid death, but not to welcome it.

So to entertain the idea that the Bible embellishes what Jesus said about Himself, you would have to discount the actions and experience of His 'group of 12' or discount the Biblical account of what happened with them.  Historically speaking no one argues the experience of this group of men.

So you really are left with Jesus being a "David Koresh" type - lunatic that also had such charisma/magic acts that he was able to convince a whole host of people about a falsehood, or He really was the Messiah.


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## brian lancaster (Feb 7, 2011)

I believe exactly what the Bible says, God is not in the tricking business he's in the saving business, and he's done that with his son Jesus. And he is the only way to life everlasting.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 7, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> If He had not made the claim of being Himself God, and sufficiently convinced His closest group of followers, is it even reasonable to think they would die for His lie?  That is just not plausible.  People might lie to avoid death, but not to welcome it.
> 
> So to entertain the idea that the Bible embellishes what Jesus said about Himself, you would have to discount the actions and experience of His 'group of 12' or discount the Biblical account of what happened with them.  Historically speaking no one argues the experience of this group of men.
> 
> So you really are left with Jesus being a "David Koresh" type - lunatic that also had such charisma/magic acts that he was able to convince a whole host of people about a falsehood, or He really was the Messiah.


 Sorry, but he did not make that claim.[to be God] Pure traditional assumptions. Nothing but a handful of ambigious verses.
We have record of Christians coming out of the woodwork wanting to be killed. We have a letter written by a 2nd in command to his superior, asking what shall we do with all of them and he responded "Don't they have cliffs they can jump off of"


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## VisionCasting (Feb 8, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, but he did not make that claim.[to be God] Pure traditional assumptions. Nothing but a handful of ambigious verses.



Jesus as God's Son:  Matthew 3:17
And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Jesus' closest friends recognize it:  Mark 8:29
“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?” Peter answered, “You are the Messiah.”

Jesus makes the claim:  Mark 14:61-62
Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”  “I am,” said Jesus.

If you are going to pontificate, get the facts right.  Jesus made the claim.  His closest friends made the claim.  God Himself made the claim.  There is no ambiguity.  Only your attempt at deceit and it's been noted for what it is.


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## dexrusjak (Feb 8, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Jesus as God's Son:  Matthew 3:17
> And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
> 
> "My son" does not mean "god."
> ...



If you are going to use Bible verses to support your claim, choose better verses.  I recommend the one in which Jesus says, "I, Jesus, am God."  Oh wait, that one doesn't exist.  Interesting.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 8, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> If you are going to use Bible verses to support your claim, choose better verses.  I recommend the one in which Jesus says, "I, Jesus, am God."  Oh wait, that one doesn't exist.  Interesting.



“The truth is, before Abraham was, I AM.” (John 8:58 NLT)

The I AM title (ego eimi) is the Name of God for Himself!  The most Holy of terms that Jews did not even dare to repeat. Yet He claimed that title.

There it is.  Ready to repent and turn to Yahweh now?


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## armalite (Feb 8, 2011)

it will be alot clearer to everyone after the rapture. there will you be. not here i hope.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 8, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> What do you belive about Jesus?
> 
> a. Never existed.
> b. Existed but was nothing like the Jesus of the Bible.
> ...



My answer.  Actually, THE answer:  "d".

The Bible verifies it.
Hundreds of documents, beginning in the 2nd century verify His existence.
Those same documents and writing provide even more details than the Bible.  Tho those writings cannot be considered "sacred".

How could I "not" believe in Jesus Christ?


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## JFS (Feb 8, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> How could I "not" believe in Jesus Christ?



Common sense?


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## ugadawg88 (Feb 8, 2011)

JFS said:


> Common sense?



I think you might be missing the point of this whole religion thing... You see, you can sit there and deny what the many prophets of the Old Testament attested too, you can deny manuscripts of the ancient world, actually more than 24,000 that all attested to the miracles and divine nature of Christ, but thats ok. You, like everyone on the planet have been given a choice. You have been given a conscience, you have been given free will. The good thing about God, is He does not force himself on anyone, you simply cannot force love, which is God's nature. To get a true picture of God, look at Jesus. 

I will ask you this: are you married? If so, were you forced to love your wife? No. You weren't. Were you forced to love your parents, No. You had the choice to love and accept love. That is the same thing with Jesus. Jesus offers "life and life abundantly". God has given us a choice. What you do with it is up to you. Jesus gave Peter a choice, when he was hanging out with them on the beach after the resurrection, he said "Peter, do you love me more than these?" 3 times. Essentially giving Peter the choice. 

You may never choose to believe that Jesus offers "life and life abundantly," and again, that is up to you. 

Do you believe in science's theory of the big bang and black holes and vacuums and such (I am not extremely schooled in the theories of all that)? If so, you do so with faith. It cannot be proven. It is theory.  So you have faith that science is true. I could be wrong, but I don't think there are ancient manuscripts to support that. I am not trying to insult you, I am just trying to make a point. 

Now I could go on and on, but I don't want to ramble. I want to make one more point, the problem with all of those theories is that, well they are exactly that. YOu could counter argue with, "well, the evidence that you have is the Bible." The Bible does provide adequate evidence, but so do archaeologists who have repeatedly stated that life began in the Mesopotamian region between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which coincides with biblical teaching. 

Anyways, it's your choice. But, God loves you regardless. I will also provide links to my statements. 

http://home.earthlink.net/~ronrhodes/Manuscript.html
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.
http://www.equip.org/articles/facts-for-skeptics-of-the-new-testament

Hope this helps!


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2011)

JFS said:


> Common sense?



Common sense belongs to the common.
Spiritual discernment belongs to the spiritual.


Common sense is fine, unless it stands in direct contrast to historical evidence.
How do you know Abraham Lincoln was ever president of this country?  Historical documents! Not common sense.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 9, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Jesus as God's Son:  Matthew 3:17
> And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
> 
> Jesus' closest friends recognize it:  Mark 8:29
> ...


 Your already making this too easy. I should refrain from busting up the unity on this friendly forumn but if you would like, and I will give you that option cause I will certainly refute every single verse you can come up with. The last three years of my life have gone into this study. I should warn you, if you choose for me to continue in this discussion, 1/2 will hate me, 1/4 will wonder and another 1/4 will cross over on the other side.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your already making this too easy. I should refrain from busting up the unity on this friendly forumn but if you would like, and I will give you that option cause I will certainly refute every single verse you can come up with. The last three years of my life have gone into this study. I should warn you, if you choose for me to continue in this discussion, 1/2 will hate me, 1/4 will wonder and another 1/4 will cross over on the other side.



Baaawaaaahahahahaaaaa!   Thank you for that.  It made my morning.  Were you PUI?  (Posting Under the Influence).  

Talk about "outrageous claims".  But OK.  On behalf of the Christians on this SF I gladly accept your claim that you can cause a crisis of faith or better yet, cause us to renounce our faith.

I suggest a new thread, the mods can make it a 'Sticky'.  But what should we call it?  Let's have a contest.  I suggest "Warning: Christians don't read this unless you want more free time on Sunday mornings".


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## stringmusic (Feb 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your already making this too easy. I should refrain from busting up the unity on this friendly forumn but if you would like, and I will give you that option cause I will certainly refute every single verse you can come up with. The last three years of my life have gone into this study. I should warn you, if you choose for me to continue in this discussion, 1/2 will hate me, 1/4 will wonder and another 1/4 will cross over on the other side.



Do you believe in the Trinity?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 9, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Baaawaaaahahahahaaaaa!   Thank you for that.  It made my morning.  Were you PUI?  (Posting Under the Influence).
> 
> Talk about "outrageous claims".  But OK.  On behalf of the Christians on this SF I gladly accept your claim that you can cause a crisis of faith or better yet, cause us to renounce our faith.
> 
> I suggest a new thread, the mods can make it a 'Sticky'.  But what should we call it?  Let's have a contest.  I suggest "Warning: Christians don't read this unless you want more free time on Sunday mornings".


 So I guess you think that if you don't believe that Jesus is  God then your not a biblical Christian. I have been thinking about this. I don't think that the forumn mods would approve of this. I have been debating this topic specifically on another forumn for years. I know exactly where you will go and exactly what verses you will go to and the exact ways to debunk them. Been doing it with expert debaters who are not just an offended bible toter. Based on the verses you already posted, I realize that you are a beginner in debating the trinity. The good debaters never post verses that easy. This comes from an innocence of the situation. Admirable in some respects.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> So I guess you think that if you don't believe that Jesus is  God then your not a biblical Christian. I have been thinking about this. I don't think that the forumn mods would approve of this. I have been debating this topic specifically on another forumn for years. I know exactly where you will go and exactly what verses you will go to and the exact ways to debunk them. Been doing it with expert debaters who are not just an offended bible toter. Based on the verses you already posted, I realize that you are a beginner in debating the trinity. The good debaters never post verses that easy. This comes from an innocence of the situation. Admirable in some respects.



I repeat, baaawaaahahahahaha!

Now cowboy up and cause at least 50% of us a crisis of faith.  Your credibility is on the line.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> So I guess you think that if you don't believe that Jesus is  God then your not a biblical Christian. I have been thinking about this. I don't think that the forumn mods would approve of this. I have been debating this topic specifically on another forumn for years. I know exactly where you will go and exactly what verses you will go to and the exact ways to debunk them. Been doing it with expert debaters who are not just an offended bible toter. Based on the verses you already posted, I realize that you are a beginner in debating the trinity. The good debaters never post verses that easy. This comes from an innocence of the situation. Admirable in some respects.



I pray that one day you'll be able to admit the same thing that the great debater Saul finally admitted, that he had mistakenly spend many years of his life trying to destroy the people of Christ.

It seems that when the time came, Saul was devastated that he had brought such harm to the blessed Son of God.

Until then, you'll continue doing your 'work'.


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## JFS (Feb 9, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> How do you know Abraham Lincoln was ever president of this country?  Historical documents! Not common sense.



There is no conflict between common sense and the proposition that AL was president.  But if you claim he was a space alien, it's going to take more than the writings of the Secret Space Alien Society to convince me.

See:




> Example: You see me one day and I've got a band-aid on my head and you ask "Hey, what happened to you?"
> 
> Reply A: Oh, I hit my head on my car door jam yesterday.
> 
> ...



Your anthology of tribal myths doesn't count for much objectively either, particularly given that the supernatural claims are so dependent on what is clearly a false narrative.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2011)

JFS said:


> There is no conflict between common sense and the proposition that AL was president.  But if you claim he was a space alien, it's going to take more than the writings of the Secret Space Alien Society to convince me.
> 
> See:
> 
> ...



I'll just leave all that to you.

“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen.”  Albert Einstein

“Faith is believing in things when common sense tells you not to”  unknown

And my personal favorite...............
"Common sense is what tells us the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around it."
Anon


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## JFS (Feb 9, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> And my personal favorite...............
> "Common sense is what tells us the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around it."
> Anon




That's a good one and absolutely appropriate.  A couple of thousand years ago, people's views as to what made sense are different than today.  They were willing to accept things that fit their world view at the time.  But we know better now.

So as to whether "common sense is what tells us the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around it"  click here and then get back to me as to what common sense tells you: http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/ve/2429/globe_east_2048.jpg


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 9, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I repeat, baaawaaahahahahaha!
> 
> Now cowboy up and cause at least 50% of us a crisis of faith.  Your credibility is on the line.


 I can assure you that it won't be funny, as a matter of fact, it always gets nasty. When people can't accept the facts, they resort to throwing stones. You said he claimed to be God. I said he did not.I also said your verses were ambiguious. You implied I was, well let's just say inncorrect. I said I could debunk your verses. I gave you the choice if you wanted to continue. You act as if your ready. Now, before we go on. since you don't even comprehend what you are getting into. *I ask not you, but the mods who oversee this humble trinitarian based website if they welcome this or if they had prefer not*.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2011)

JFS said:


> That's a good one and absolutely appropriate.  A couple of thousand years ago, people's views as to what made sense are different than today.  They were willing to accept things that fit their world view at the time.  But we know better now.
> 
> So as to whether "common sense is what tells us the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around it"  click here and then get back to me as to what common sense tells you: http://eoimages.gsfc.nasa.gov/ve/2429/globe_east_2048.jpg



No thanks.
I got other stuff to do.


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## JFS (Feb 9, 2011)

Here, I'll help, I'll post it below.  Nothing to be afraid of.

But just as people used to think the world was flat, they also used to attribute all kinds of natural events to god, but we know better now.  The tribal god of the jews is no longer plausible.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I ask not you, but the mods who oversee this humble trinitarian based website if they welcome this or if they had prefer not.





I'm still a Christian.  String?  You still a Christian?  

Clock is ticking Bldr.  Given your claim of  50%, you will be able to flip one of us.

But if we are all  with Jesus afterward, you going to  with us?  Or just ?


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## JFS (Feb 9, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> Given your claim of  50%, you will be able to flip one of us.




Can't wait to see this one


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 9, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> I'm still a Christian.  String?  You still a Christian?
> 
> Clock is ticking Bldr.  Given your claim of  50%, you will be able to flip one of us.
> 
> But if we are all  with Jesus afterward, you going to  with us?  Or just ?


 You think this is funny, I don't, you seem to have no concept of what is about to happen on this board if we continue. I hate to see it happen. It will be the most devisive thing this forumn has ever seen since the last time this came up but worse. I will wait until I here from the mods out of respect for their wishes. By the way, get your facts straight. I said 1/4. In the meantime, while I wait for confirmation from the mods, I suggest you study up.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2011)

JFS said:


> Here, I'll help, I'll post it below.  Nothing to be afraid of.
> 
> But just as people used to think the world was flat, they also used to attribute all kinds of natural events to god, but we know better now.  The tribal god of the jews is no longer plausible.



You realize that you are in the minority with that view?

The God of Israel is the God of the world whether you or the rest of the world believes it or not.
God's existance does not depend upon your believing in Him or not.  You think you're a smart guy!  Probably the major difference in my humanist and your humanist is that I've come to terms with mankinds stupidity and you haven't.
I have nothing to prove to you.  And I have nothing to share with you if you refuse it.
Eventually, we will both know for sure with no consideration of the other.
And there I go wasting your time again.
Sorry.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2011)

I'm gettin skeered.
I'm going back over to the other side.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> You think this is funny, I don't, you seem to have no concept of what is about to happen on this board if we continue. I hate to see it happen. It will be the most devisive thing this forumn has ever seen since the last time this came up but worse. I will wait until I here from the mods out of respect for their wishes. By the way, get your facts straight. I said 1/4. In the meantime, while I wait for confirmation from the mods, I suggest you study up.


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## shortgo (Feb 10, 2011)

I WOULD HAVE RATHER BELIEVED AND FOUND OUT I WAS WRONG THAN NOT BELIEVED AND FOUND OUT I WAS WRONG WHEN I BURSTED Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- WIDE OPEN!


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## jmharris23 (Feb 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> You think this is funny, I don't, you seem to have no concept of what is about to happen on this board if we continue. I hate to see it happen. It will be the most devisive thing this forumn has ever seen since the last time this came up but worse. I will wait until I here from the mods out of respect for their wishes. By the way, get your facts straight. I said 1/4. In the meantime, while I wait for confirmation from the mods, I suggest you study up.



You go ahead and do whatver you feel the need to do as long as it doesn't break the rules of the forum. 

As for causing 1/4 of the believers on this site to walk away from the faith, I think you're full of it. 

You my friend do not have that kind of power over us who are truly believers.


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## stringmusic (Feb 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> You think this is funny, I don't, you seem to have* no concept of what is about to happen on this board if we continue. I hate to see it happen.* It will be the most devisive thing this forumn has ever seen since the last time this came up but worse. I will wait until I here from the mods out of respect for their wishes. By the way, get your facts straight. I said 1/4. In the meantime, while I wait for confirmation from the mods, I suggest you study up.





VisionCasting said:


> I'm still a Christian.  String?  You still a Christian?
> 
> Clock is ticking Bldr.  Given your claim of  50%, you will be able to flip one of us.
> 
> But if we are all  with Jesus afterward, you going to  with us?  Or just ?



Yep, still got Jesus/God in my heart, but the above quote has got me real skeered . I dont know if Mr. bldr wants to converse with me though, I asked him a question earlier in the thread and he didnt answer, maybe he thought his simple claim of "Jesus is/was not God" alone was sufficient for me?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> So I guess you think that if you don't believe that Jesus is God then your not a biblical Christian. I have been thinking about this. I don't think that the forumn mods would approve of this. I have been debating this topic specifically on another forumn for years. I know exactly where you will go and exactly what verses you will go to and the exact ways to debunk them. Been doing it with expert debaters who are not just an offended bible toter. Based on the verses you already posted, I realize that you are a beginner in debating the trinity. The good debaters never post verses that easy. This comes from an innocence of the situation. Admirable in some respects.






1gr8bldr said:


> I can assure you that it won't be funny, as a matter of fact, it always gets nasty. When people can't accept the facts, they resort to throwing stones. You said he claimed to be God. I said he did not.I also said your verses were ambiguious. You implied I was, well let's just say inncorrect. I said I could debunk your verses. I gave you the choice if you wanted to continue. You act as if your ready. Now, before we go on. since you don't even comprehend what you are getting into. I ask not you, but the mods who oversee this humble trinitarian based website if they welcome this or if they had prefer not.






1gr8bldr said:


> You think this is funny, I don't, you seem to have no concept of what is about to happen on this board if we continue. I hate to see it happen. It will be the most devisive thing this forumn has ever seen since the last time this came up but worse. I will wait until I here from the mods out of respect for their wishes. By the way, get your facts straight. I said 1/4. In the meantime, while I wait for confirmation from the mods, I suggest you study up.


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 10, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> These are just a few extras I threw in.



Well that's certainly nonspecific and unconvincing.  Guess I'll just have to accept what you say on faith.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 10, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> As for causing 1/4 of the believers on this site to walk away from the faith, I think you're full of it.



Don't forget the other 1/4 of us that will be left questioning our faith (in his original claim). 

That make a full 1/2 of us in a 'crisis of faith'.

That would mean Bldr is probably the most effective atheist of all times.

    Waiting.  The suspense is killin' me!  Maybe that's his ploy.  Shucks.  I've fallen for it!  Oooooooohh nooooooo....


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## stringmusic (Feb 10, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well that's certainly nonspecific and unconvincing.  Guess I'll just have to accept what you say on faith.



Certainly dont accept what I say on faith, the words are not mine.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

To begin with, I should clarify my position. I was a trinitarian for 40 years. After reading my bible several times, I realized that their was things being taught that I did not recall seeing in scripture. Motivated to find them assuming that I most have overlooked them, I searched intently. Driven by the fact that I was beginning to distrust what I was being taught, I read it over and over, not even knowing how to use a computer at the time, to simple minded to even know about all the information on the internet, I just kept reading the bible over and over assuming that I had to be wrong. After reading the NT way over a thousand times now. I know exactly what it contains and what it does not contain. To clarify something else, whether you know it or not, many christians are faced with this problem of not seeing the trinity in scripture. I saw once a web site that I can't recall that had a link about "do you question the trinity" or something like that. I was amazed to realize that so many had concerns but would not voice them but in privacy, were looking for answers. It is also very strange how a typical conversion does not include that Jesus is God. Most come in a simplistic way of Jesus is God's son who died for our sins [no comprehension of trinity] and are taught these things later. So, whether you like it or not, this will be viewed by many who don't post here but rather observe, thus a lot is at stake. Also for clarification. I am not an athiest. I am a very devout Christian. I am not a Christian by mans creedal standards. I share the same faith that the first Christians held before the fight over "orthodox" when they had their identity stolen. I have completely given up all forms of trying to be good enough or help God save me and have rested completely from my work of "building" and have submitted myself fully to his work in me as the potter and me simply the clay, trusting only in the finished work of the cross. That is my declaration. The real issue will be; who has been deceived into following a false Christ that has no power to save. As we proceed, I will first, to keep from being sidetracked, address the verses that you have already posted. I ask that you refrain from responding until I have finished with what you have already posted and then I will give you the "floor" for your responses. This should be the format. Random responses will only cloud the issues and make it almost impossible to address each point properly. I'm sure you are ready to jump right in, sorry, I have a death in the immediate family so I may or may not have time right away.


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## ugadawg88 (Feb 10, 2011)

Sorry for interrupting your posts, but your proclamations starkly resemble those of Bart Ehrman...


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

Hello Athiest, I would like to ask a couple of you guys to "umpire" the debate that will be beginning soon. I need only a couple of volunteers, not many jumping in at random. You guys are "neutral" with no traditional implications, believing neither my way or visioncasting's way. I will rely on you to point out things such as being "illogical", redefining words, assumed theorys not supported by scripture, misrepresent my statements, etc. What always happens is that people spout responses that have no logical foundation as if it were assumed truth. In this I need your help to control by pointing this out. As a responder, knowing that you will be called out for "drive buy stoning" will help to maintain a civil discussion where the point maker has been given the opportunity to make his case and have his points addressed properly. I ask for your help, who is willing that would like to "police" this debate?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

ugadawg88 said:


> Sorry for interrupting your posts, but your proclamations starkly resemble those of Bart Ehrman...


 I just the last couple of weeks discovered Bart Erhman. It is sad that he walked away from the faith. I suspect that it was not the errors that caused his turn but the problem of suffering based on his youtube information. I actually did not view that portion. I have ordered some of his books. I am not a book person apart from the bible but I have really been interested in the early church history and been looking for information about the "fight for orthodox"


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

Our initial confrontation began over "*What did Jesus claim*" so this is where we should began.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

jmharris23 said:


> You go ahead and do whatver you feel the need to do as long as it doesn't break the rules of the forum.
> 
> As for causing 1/4 of the believers on this site to walk away from the faith, I think you're full of it.
> 
> You my friend do not have that kind of power over us who are truly believers.


 Hello jmharris23, I agree, I have no power to do anything. In the past, I have refrained from this topic on this forumn. I made the simple statement that Jesus did not claim to be God. Now here we are.


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## ugadawg88 (Feb 10, 2011)

I'm sorry, but I cannot help but interject. So i am very interested in what you have to say. I have watched countless debates with Dr. Ehrman, and your dialog was just kind of on point with his. I fully believe that the Bible is the divinely breathed word of the Almighty, however, I have done manuscript studies of the New Testament, specifically the Gospels, Acts, and most of Paul's letters to the churches. I am interested to see your views on the inconsistencies with the Gospels. Also, will you be explaining your view on Salvation, following Jesus, and the Trinity? If not, please do. I am not trying to call you out or anything, I would just like for you to point out how you personally perceive the conflicts within the the Gospels. Anyways, carry on...


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## ugadawg88 (Feb 10, 2011)

Also, if you have a long post, pretty please separate your paragraphs. It makes them so much easier to read.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

ugadawg88 said:


> I'm sorry, but I cannot help but interject. So i am very interested in what you have to say. I have watched countless debates with Dr. Ehrman, and your dialog was just kind of on point with his. I fully believe that the Bible is the divinely breathed word of the Almighty, however, I have done manuscript studies of the New Testament, specifically the Gospels, Acts, and most of Paul's letters to the churches. I am interested to see your views on the inconsistencies with the Gospels. Also, will you be explaining your view on Salvation, following Jesus, and the Trinity? If not, please do. I am not trying to call you out or anything, I would just like for you to point out how you personally perceive the conflicts within the the Gospels. Anyways, carry on...


Hello, ugadawg88, I won't have time to address those points without clouding the present debate. I would enjoy discussing those things later. I would love to make a couple brief comments so that you knew my position but I fear it would spur responses that would sidetract the present OP. I hope you understand. Maybe you could PM me but I will be very limited for time so please be patient. Thanks, I look foward to hearing your views also.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

ugadawg88 said:


> Also, if you have a long post, pretty please separate your paragraphs. It makes them so much easier to read.


point taken, I should simply because it is eaiser to respond to. I am not very efficient with a computer. I only learned how a couple years ago during the need to find tractor parts on the net. Why, I still type with one finger and have no clue how to "cut and paste". I am a simple man who has been given a desire to know about the scriptures which is ultimately to know about "the God and Father of my Lord Jesus Christ". I have a zeal for the unkown truth of the "kingdom of God" and God in man,[the promise,Immanuel], not God as man.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

Hello again Athiest, Most of you know me and should be able to verify my attitudes towards you guys has been respectful. I sometimes present my views but never try to force my position on any other because I know that your own views are grounded on much thought that was formulated over much time. We Christians will never be able to prove faith or the bible, BUT, I ask you to observe what is about to happen and call to remembrance the words of Jesus, "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. A man will be against his brother....." You will witness the "powerful delusion" first hand. Ponder over it and see if the bible doesn't "come to life" right before your very eyes.


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## JFS (Feb 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I ask you to observe what is about to happen.....


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

JFS said:


>


 Soon enough JFS, I have family issues to attend to as priority.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 10, 2011)

Hi Dex, so sorry to derail your thread. We could start a new one if you prefer????


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## Ronnie T (Feb 10, 2011)

During the lull in the action here, concerning whether or not Jesus is God, I'd have to ask for some clarity.

If Jesus is God, when Jesus was baptized why did God speak from heaven and say "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".  There's dozens of other scripture you know I can provide.
So whoever is proclaiming that Jesus is God needs to clarify some things.................... or go back to the classroom.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 11, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> During the lull in the action here, concerning whether or not Jesus is God, I'd have to ask for some clarity.
> 
> If Jesus is God, when Jesus was baptized why did God speak from heaven and say "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".  There's dozens of other scripture you know I can provide.
> So whoever is proclaiming that Jesus is God needs to clarify some things.................... or go back to the classroom.


Hello Ronnie, Once we get started I will not respond to other questions but since I have a moment, I surely want to start with things "clarified". I ask a seemingly dumb question, Who is this intended for? Me or visioncasting. It looks obivious but I have seen all sorts of different opinions so you never know what is being assumed in a question. Maybe I should ask how you would answer this question and then I would know where you stand. A PM might be best


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 11, 2011)

Seems, quite, I suspect everybody's surfing the web, looking for stones [info] to throw my way


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## jmharris23 (Feb 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Seems, quite, I suspect everybody's surfing the web, looking for stones [info] to throw my way



No stones here, I just can't come up with anything appropriate to say in response to you. 

Like our momma's always said, " If you don't have anything nice to say......."


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## dexrusjak (Feb 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hi Dex, so sorry to derail your thread. We could start a new one if you prefer????



Not at all.  I look forward to learning from the conversation.  Please continue.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 11, 2011)

Still a Christain.  Clock still ticking.  I'm beginning to think you might not be able to cause a crisis of faith for 50% of us.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Seems, quite, I suspect everybody's surfing the web, looking for stones [info] to throw my way




No, I think everybody is just waiting for you to:


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## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Ronnie, Once we get started I will not respond to other questions but since I have a moment, I surely want to start with things "clarified". I ask a seemingly dumb question, Who is this intended for? Me or visioncasting. It looks obivious but I have seen all sorts of different opinions so you never know what is being assumed in a question. Maybe I should ask how you would answer this question and then I would know where you stand. A PM might be best



Oh no, not directed toward you at all, I don't think.
I assumed someone, or several, have told you that Jesus said he was God.  My point is that Jesus never said he was God.  That's all.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 11, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Oh no, not directed toward you at all, I don't think.
> I assumed someone, or several, have told you that Jesus said he was God.  My point is that Jesus never said he was God.  That's all.



See post #38.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2011)

VisionCasting said:


> See post #38.



I went back and looked.
I imagine you and I are in agreement with Jesus' relationship with God.  And there was a relationship.  And since there was a relationship Jesus cannot be the one true God.
And I don't think Jesus ever claimed to be God.

Jesus did say that He was as God is.  And Jesus said that He didn't speak His own words and will, but Jesus always spoke the words of God.  

I'll say it this way:  Jesus and God were the same, but Jesus was not God.

"Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, 'Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, but I know him because I am from him and he sent me'" (John 7:28-29). 

"Then they asked him, 'Where is your father?' 'You do not know me or my Father,' Jesus replied. 'If you knew me, you would know my Father also'" (John 8:19) 

"'I tell you the truth,' Jesus answered, 'before Abraham was born, I am!'" (John 8:58). 

"I and the Father are one" (John 10:30). 

VisionCasting, I see those verses just as you do, but I don't consider Jesus ever saying that "I am God".


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 12, 2011)

I'll say it this way:  Jesus and God were the same said:
			
		

> I am confused!
> 
> If jesus and god are the same then jesus must be god, it's logical.
> 
> Why are you christians get so angry when someone tells you that he/she does not believe in jesus/bible/god?  I can see your anger in this website and my daily life.  I am tired of being lectured that I will be burn in hail for eternity.  I am tired of being asked which church do I attend before you even know my name.  I am tired of being looked at funny when I don't bow my head before eating my lunch.  However, I do believe jesus or whatever his name was existed 2000 years ago as a roman's slave.  Also, I want to buy my liquor on sunday.


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## kyewhit (Feb 12, 2011)

The truth is this!!!!!!!

It does not matter what any of us believe because we are just people. Our one opinion does not change reality. Does Jesus exist? Was he GOD in human from? Was he the son of GOD also and also the Holy Spirit? Is God eternally existing in three persons the Farther, Son and Holy Spirit? the answer to all of these is YES!!!

        Remember that our one opinion does not change reality!!!
How do we know that Christianity is real? Becuase it has the power to change lives. When poeple decide to not believe in Jesus like an atheists or someone at does not believe in the gospel they are a lot of the times tring to justify there sinful life style. Because they don't want to answer for the things they have done.

       Also people they came up with there on faith or believe in something else they are guilty of a sin called idolatry, and a lot of people do this because it is so easy to do. and this were you make up a god to suit your life style so you fell better about the sinner you have commited.

      So let me ask you this are you a good person? So here is the million-dollar question: Will you go to Heaven? Here's a quick test. Have you ever told a lie, stolen anything or used God's name in vain? Jesus said, “Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart".
Have you looked with lust? Will you be guilt on Judgment Day? If you have done those things, God sees you as a lying, thieving, blasphemous, adulterer-at-heart. The Bible warns that if you are guilty you will end up in his place of punishment. That's not God's will. He sent his Son to suffer and die on the cross for you. Jesus took your punishment upon Himself. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." Then He rose f...rom the dead and defeated death. Please, repent (TURN FROM SIN) today and trust in Jesus, God will grant everlasting life. Then read your Bible daily and obey it.


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## dexrusjak (Feb 12, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> Why are you christians get so angry when someone tells you that he/she does not believe in jesus/bible/god?  I can see your anger in this website and my daily life.  I am tired of being lectured that I will be burn in hail for eternity.  I am tired of being asked which church do I attend before you even know my name.  I am tired of being looked at funny when I don't bow my head before eating my lunch.  However, I do believe jesus or whatever his name was existed 2000 years ago as a roman's slave.  Also, I want to buy my liquor on sunday.


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## dexrusjak (Feb 12, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> The truth is this!!!!!!!
> 
> It does not matter what any of us believe because we are just people. Our one opinion does not change reality. Does Jesus exist? Was he GOD in human from? Was he the son of GOD also and also the Holy Spirit? Is God eternally existing in three persons the Farther, Son and Holy Spirit? the answer to all of these is YES!!!
> 
> ...



Ray Comfort, is that you?


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## blondiega1 (Feb 12, 2011)

Jesus is a pretty cool dude.
It's his fan club that scares me.



.


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 12, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> The truth is this!!!!!!!
> 
> It does not matter what any of us believe because we are just people. Our one opinion does not change reality. Does Jesus exist? Was he GOD in human from? Was he the son of GOD also and also the Holy Spirit? Is God eternally existing in three persons the Farther, Son and Holy Spirit? the answer to all of these is YES!!!
> 
> ...



You just prove my point, more lecturing.  Whatever you say or do will never convince me that god existed or jesus is the son of god.

  “Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart".

I don't lust at just any woman.  She has to be pretty and proprotional.  Human is still a part of the animal kingdom and our goal is to continue with the survival of the specie.  We are not evolved to be monogamus.  I don't know any specie that is monogamus.  But in reality I would not cheat on my wife because I would not want her to cheat on me.


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## kyewhit (Feb 12, 2011)

1handkneehigh

Do you know how I know you have parents??? Because you exist!!! How do I know a painting has a painter??? Because the painting exists!!! How do I know a building has a builder??? Because the building exists!!! You don't have something without a creator!! And when I look at creation I know there must be a creator. Remember that it does matter what you think because its going to change reality.

When one person tells a lie it makes them a lier you tell 10 and a bell goes off. If one person kills another person it makes them a murder even if they kill one time. And its the same with lust if you do it one time its adultery at heart. And when you said you only lust after pretty and proprotional women, all you are doing is justfying your sin and you like ever on else will have to give account for your sin.

Lets say that you have a fine that you can't pay. And now you are standing in front of the judge and he ask you if you have the ability
to pay your fine? And you tell him that you are sorry for the things you have done. He looks that you and says that you should be sorry for the things that you have done, because you broke the law. As the judge orders you off to jail someone steps in the courtroom and pays your fine for you, that's what Jesus did for you. It was the blood of Jesus that paid the fine for our sin when he suffered and died on the cross. When he rised from the dead he gave us  everlasting life to those at will repent and put there faith in him. So now sense he did that, those that are washed in his blood ( those who repent) will not be judged for there sin on judgement day because Jesus paid our fine. Also if I say I dont believe in bullets and I put a load gun to my head and pull the trigger its not going to change reality. Don't make Jesus judge you for your sin. Think about we have talked about and ask him to for give you. Any of us can die at any time and sweept into eternity.


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 12, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> How do we know that Christianity is real? Becuase it has the power to change lives.



By that rationale Allah is real.  If he's real I bet he could whip Jesus in an Indian strap match....because he would cheat.



kyewhit said:


> When poeple decide to not believe in Jesus like an atheists or someone at does not believe in the gospel they are a lot of the times tring to justify there sinful life style. Because they don't want to answer for the things they have done.



Maybe this is it and I just haven't come to grips with it yet.  The disbelief in an invisible entity that nobody can see or touch has nothing to do with it, in your opinion?  For me, the evidence of Jesus's existence being found in a book with talking animals and 900 year old men makes it dubious at best.





kyewhit said:


> Have you looked with lust?



Yes brother!! Guilty!!  You ever been to a Publix at about 11am during the week after morning tennis matches have ended?



kyewhit said:


> Then read your Bible daily and obey it.



Should we obey Numbers 31:17-18?


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 12, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> 1handkneehigh
> 
> Do you know how I know you have parents??? Because you exist!!! How do I know a painting has a painter??? Because the painting exists!!! How do I know a building has a builder??? Because the building exists!!! You don't have something without a creator!! And when I look at creation I know there must be a creator. Remember that it does matter what you think because its going to change reality.



There you go again, lecturing like every good southern baptist preacher I've ever met.

Since you stated that if everything exists there's must be a creator.  Then if god exists then who created him?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 13, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> I am confused!
> 
> If jesus and god are the same then jesus must be god, it's logical.
> 
> Why are you christians get so angry when someone tells you that he/she does not believe in jesus/bible/god?  I can see your anger in this website and my daily life.  I am tired of being lectured that I will be burn in hail for eternity.  I am tired of being asked which church do I attend before you even know my name.  I am tired of being looked at funny when I don't bow my head before eating my lunch.  However, I do believe jesus or whatever his name was existed 2000 years ago as a roman's slave.  Also, I want to buy my liquor on sunday.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 13, 2011)

I love you guys sense of humor, just quickly checking in. Been very busy hosting the family at my house while we grieve the death of an immediate family member. I should find time in a few days.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 13, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> There you go again, lecturing like every good southern baptist preacher I've ever met.


I didn't find any "lecturing".  When any of us gets asked to explain our beliefs, an answer like yours tosses such an excellent post reply under the bridge.  I'm sorry you could not see the whole answer for what it was.



1handkneehigh said:


> Since you stated that if everything exists there's must be a creator.  Then if god exists then who created him?



He always was. It's another thought that gives believers great hope and security.


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 13, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> I didn't find any "lecturing".  When any of us gets asked to explain our beliefs, an answer like yours tosses such an excellent post reply under the bridge.  I'm sorry you could not see the whole answer for what it was.
> 
> Like in my post earlier when someone told you that they don't believe in god or jesus your further comments may not be warranted.  I don't think whatever I say or do can sway you from your belief what make you think you can sway mine.
> 
> He always was. It's another thought that gives believers great hope and security.



If god exists I am sure he/she has a momma and a daddy too like the rest of us.  He/she may even have grandparents for all I care.  But let let me tell you this he/she will not rule my world.  I have better thing to worry about than being roast in eternal hail.


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## vowell462 (Feb 14, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> By that rationale Allah is real.  If he's real I bet he could whip Jesus in an Indian strap match....because he would cheat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now thats some funny stuff!


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 18, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> I am confused!
> 
> If jesus and god are the same then jesus must be god, it's logical.
> 
> Why are you christians get so angry when someone tells you that he/she does not believe in jesus/bible/god?  I can see your anger in this website and my daily life.  I am tired of being lectured that I will be burn in hail for eternity.  I am tired of being asked which church do I attend before you even know my name.  I am tired of being looked at funny when I don't bow my head before eating my lunch.  However, I do believe jesus or whatever his name was existed 2000 years ago as a roman's slave.  Also, I want to buy my liquor on sunday.


Sorry, You should be able to live your life free from the influence of "religion" if you so choose.


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## VisionCasting (Feb 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, You should be able to live your life free from the influence of "religion" if you so choose.



So you'd throw out the entire legal system?  And the Constitution?  And the Declaration of Independence?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry, You should be able to live your life free from the influence of "religion" if you so choose.



Certainly no Christian should hate or even be angry at a person because they are an unbeliever.
I use to be an unbeliever.  It wasn't anger and hatred that brought me to belief.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Certainly no Christian should hate or even be angry at a person because they are an unbeliever.
> I use to be an unbeliever.  It wasn't anger and hatred that brought me to belief.



Me either, it was "amazing love/ amazing grace".

I sometimes saw my life without belief in the Lord as hatred toward God. It felt like it was, many times.  And it took a long lost neighbor-friend to bring truth and show me what God did to love me ... with such an amazing sacrifice as the cross.  My friendship with my old neighbor was restored also.  And since grace came those many years ago, I'm grateful for many 'restorations' along the road of life.


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## kyewhit (Feb 20, 2011)

1handkneehigh

Let me ask you this question? Let's say that I am a doctor and I come up to you and tell you that I will give you $1 million for your right eye. Would you give me your right eye for the money?? Lets say I give you $10 million for both your eyes would you do it?? No one in there right mind would do because you need eyes to get threw life, you need to see!!! And Jesus said what is it to prophet a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul. Please consider what we have talked about. Think of it this way If your right and there is no God then we'll all just died and thats it!! but if I'am right and your wrong then man you will have hail to pay for eternity!!! Please think about what we have talked about its just this simlpe!! We broke God's laws God became a man in christ Jesus suffered and died for us, to pay the fine for our sins Now sinse he did that we can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. And when arose from the grave he gave us eternal life. So please think about it and repent and put your trust in him. And it is true that he has a plan for your life but he will all ways address your sin first.


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## kyewhit (Feb 20, 2011)

1handkneehigh said:


> If god exists I am sure he/she has a momma and a daddy too like the rest of us.  He/she may even have grandparents for all I care.  But let let me tell you this he/she will not rule my world.  I have better thing to worry about than being roast in eternal hail.



Jesus said he was the Alpha the Omega the Beginning and the End and the Almight, he is God. Were did he come from, he just was!!


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## atlashunter (Feb 20, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> And Jesus said what is it to prophet a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul.



You first need to establish that people have an eternal soul that can be lost.




kyewhit said:


> Please consider what we have talked about. Think of it this way If your right and there is no God then we'll all just died and thats it!! but if I'am right and your wrong then man you will have hail to pay for eternity!!! Please think about what we have talked about its just this simlpe!!



Ever considered the possibility that some other religion has it right and by rejecting it you are dooming yourself? You're taking the same risk as the atheist.




kyewhit said:


> We broke God's laws God became a man in christ Jesus suffered and died for us, to pay the fine for our sins Now sinse he did that we can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. And when arose from the grave he gave us eternal life. So please think about it and repent and put your trust in him. And it is true that he has a plan for your life but he will all ways address your sin first.



If God is all knowing he knew man would break the rules when he created him. In fact he knew it when he created satan. He also knew that he would use a human sacrifice to appease the debt to himself that he knew and intended to create from the beginning. Does that strike you as moral? Murder of the innocent to pay for the crimes of the guilty? Pretty evil in my opinion.

Besides, I reject the notion that most people are so bad that they deserve to burn.


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## 1handkneehigh (Feb 22, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> 1handkneehigh
> 
> Let me ask you this question? Let's say that I am a doctor and I come up to you and tell you that I will give you $1 million for your right eye. Would you give me your right eye for the money?? Lets say I give you $10 million for both your eyes would you do it?? No one in there right mind would do because you need eyes to get threw life, you need to see!!! And Jesus said what is it to prophet a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul. Please consider what we have talked about. Think of it this way If your right and there is no God then we'll all just died and thats it!! but if I'am right and your wrong then man you will have hail to pay for eternity!!! Please think about what we have talked about its just this simlpe!! We broke God's laws God became a man in christ Jesus suffered and died for us, to pay the fine for our sins Now sinse he did that we can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. And when arose from the grave he gave us eternal life. So please think about it and repent and put your trust in him. And it is true that he has a plan for your life but he will all ways address your sin first.



I know someone who would not only give up his body parts but his life so that his family will not starve.  If it comes to life and death situation for my family all options are on the table.

Why don't you and I convert to islam, I heard you can walk with allah and blessed with virgin girls for eternity.  Whereas christianity get to walk with god only and no virgins.  Let me know if you are up to it.


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## tarheelboy (Feb 24, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> 1handkneehigh
> 
> "Think of it this way If your right and there is no God then we'll all just died and thats it!! but if I'am right and your wrong then man you will have hail to pay for eternity!!!"
> 
> ...


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## dexrusjak (Feb 24, 2011)

tarheelboy said:


> kyewhit said:
> 
> 
> > 1handkneehigh
> ...


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## ambush80 (Feb 24, 2011)

dexrusjak said:


> tarheelboy said:
> 
> 
> > What if the Muslims are right?
> ...


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## pnome (Feb 24, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Or the Wiccans?



Or that crazy guy that lives under the overpass...


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## vowell462 (Feb 24, 2011)

kyewhit said:


> 1handkneehigh
> 
> Let me ask you this question? Let's say that I am a doctor and I come up to you and tell you that I will give you $1 million for your right eye. Would you give me your right eye for the money?? Lets say I give you $10 million for both your eyes would you do it?? No one in there right mind would do because you need eyes to get threw life, you need to see!!! And Jesus said what is it to prophet a man if he gains the whole world and loses his own soul. Please consider what we have talked about. Think of it this way If your right and there is no God then we'll all just died and thats it!! but if I'am right and your wrong then man you will have hail to pay for eternity!!! Please think about what we have talked about its just this simlpe!! We broke God's laws God became a man in christ Jesus suffered and died for us, to pay the fine for our sins Now sinse he did that we can ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. And when arose from the grave he gave us eternal life. So please think about it and repent and put your trust in him. And it is true that he has a plan for your life but he will all ways address your sin first.



Id probably sell my right eye for a million. I can still function through life without one. Ive got purddy good vision. A million would pay for three weddings, and three college tuitions, and still give me some duck hunting money. Yea, Ill take that offer.


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