# The Problem of Evil



## atlashunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Alright we discussed starting a thread about this on the Bart Ehrman thread. The problem of evil is what Ehrman credits with his loss of faith and becoming agnostic. I'd like to open by sharing a video that vividly portrays this problem as well as one of my favorite essays by Mark Twain.



Thoughts of God by Mark Twain


> How often we are moved to admit the intelligence exhibited in both the designing and the execution of some of His works. Take the fly, for instance. The planning of the fly was an application of pure intelligence, morals not being concerned. Not one of us could have planned the fly, not one of us could have constructed him; and no one would have considered it wise to try, except under an assumed name. It is believed by some that the fly was introduced to meet a long-felt want. In the course of ages, for some reason or other, there have been millions of these persons, but out of this vast multitude there has not been one who has been willing to explain what the want was. At least satisfactorily. A few have explained that there was need of a creature to remove disease-breeding garbage; but these being then asked to explain what long-felt want the disease-breeding garbage was introduced to supply, they have not been willing to undertake the contract.
> 
> There is much inconsistency concerning the fly. In all the ages he has not had a friend, there has never been a person in the earth who could have been persuaded to intervene between him and extermination; yet billions of persons have excused the Hand that made him - and this without a blush. Would they have excused a Man in the same circumstances, a man positively known to have invented the fly? On the contrary. For the credit of the race let us believe it would have been all day with that man. Would persons consider it just to reprobate in a child, with its undeveloped morals, a scandal which they would overlook in the Pope?
> 
> ...


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## Huntinfool (Oct 7, 2011)

First impression 11 seconds in....

Scripture quoted out of the intended context.  That is not a promise to every human being.

I'll update as I see things to comment on.


59 seconds.....entirely heartbreaking picture.  Not sure how much more I want to watch.  But I will.  I will not deny or pretend that suffering exists on a level that is almost completely unimaginable.

So it appears that the entire premise of the video is that God's plan was for that little girl to starve to death and be eaten by the vulture and it's based on the verse that he continues to quote over and over...taken out of its proper context.

That invalidates the guy's 100% in my mind.  Does it change the fact that he correctly points out that it's incredibly difficult (understatement of the year) to look at that picture and imagine why God didn't save her?  Absolutely, 100% not.  I'll be honest.  It makes me angry to see that picture.  It makes me want to ask God why in the world he would allow that to happen.  

I cannot answer that question right now.  But I will think on it for a while and try to answer honestly.  This is not an issue...especially after you watch that video that should be answered lightly or with some pre-canned crap "Christian" response.

Honestly, it makes me angry that those pastors were using that verse in the same way the guy who made the video did.  They gave him the ammunition that he needed to hate God.


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## stringmusic (Oct 7, 2011)

I watched the video, but I haven't read the Mark Twain paragraph.

For starters, the Preachers they picked out for the video is just plain hilarious.

Who's fault do you think it is that that little girl, and so many like her, starve to death everyday?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 7, 2011)

A couple other comments on this before I head home for the weekend.  I am convicted about complaining about just how hard my life is.  I actually did it yesterday.  God forgive me when there is real suffering.

One other thing about this makes me angry....the Church...the body of Christ.

That picture is our fault.  We are called to take care of the "orphans" and the hungry and the sick and the widow and on and on and on.  

I've said it many times before.  If the body of Christ actually did what it was called to do, that little girl would not have been there in that shape.  It's heartbreaking.  We know what we are supposed to do and yet we continue to refuse to do it.  The resources of the global church are enough to feed those people 100 times over...and yet we build arenas so that we can sit comfortably for an hour on Sunday and "do our duty" to God one hour a week.  We prefer to just not know that that little girl literally starved to death and probably thousands more just like her even today.  It's too convicting.


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## atlashunter (Oct 7, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I cannot answer that question right now.  But I will think on it for a while and try to answer honestly.  This is not an issue...especially after you watch that video that should be answered lightly or with some pre-canned crap "Christian" response.



You should be commended for this answer. That is very respectable.

I agree it is a very hard hitting picture to look at but it's one that should be seen. It's hard to imagine what it must have been like for the child much less the photographer. I can't imagine seeing that in real life and being told to walk away and doing it. I don't think I could. I think they'd have to shoot me to stop me. And I'm not saying that because I think I'm anything special. I'm most certainly not. But I know to walk away from that I don't think I could live with myself. It would haunt me the rest of my life as I'm sure it haunted the photographer.

We are very much imperfect creatures so we shouldn't be too hard on ourselves. We do bad things to each other. We make poor decisions and can cause harm even with the best of intentions. We aren't perfect and even if we were we aren't omnipotent. We must do the best we can and often times our best simply isn't enough. But what excuse can be made if all of this is the product of an all powerful God? THAT is the problem of evil. Read the last two paragraphs of Twain's essay and then consider it in light of the video.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 7, 2011)

That's what I was thinking.  They'd had to have killed me to.  I'm not walking away from that child.  The camera goes down and she gets scooped up in my arms....or they'll kill me to stop me from doing it.  

All I could think was "what a coward" as I heard the story.



> But what excuse can be made if all of this is the product of an all powerful God?



Is it a product of God, or a product of the Fall?  That has a lot to do with "the problem of evil".  But I'll get back to it on Monday with you.  

I think this is a really great thread.  Glad you posted it...though I'll see that picture for a while in my mind.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier...I was busy having fun with your boy Bigred....what a piece of work.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 7, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> First impression 11 seconds in....
> 
> Scripture quoted out of the intended context.  That is not a promise to every human being.
> 
> ...




Because God never was.. It ALL makes sense once you realize this.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 7, 2011)

And who wants people to believe like them???

You're hilarious...or ridiculous. I haven't figured out which yet.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 7, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> And who wants people to believe like them???
> 
> You're hilarious...or ridiculous. I haven't figured out which yet.




Or I'm ridiculously HILARIOUS!!


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks for starting the thread Atlas.  I am going to kind-of watch how it unfolds a bit.  I have not dug into the problem of evil so much, so I am very interested to see all sides of this.

I have a daughter.  That picture was one of the worst things I have ever seen.  Thing is, when you have kids, you see all kids through that perspective, which does not make sense if God sees us the same.  I guess that has a lot to do with the problem of evil as well........


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## ambush80 (Oct 7, 2011)

It's her own fault, that is, as a representative of the human race; the spawn of original sin, it is what she asked for, with her free will.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> It's her own fault, that is, as a representative of the human race; the spawn of original sin, it is what she asked for, with her free will.



Come on man, uncool.


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## ambush80 (Oct 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Come on man, uncool.



I've been told over and over again that He11 is what we all deserve from the day we're born.  Not just pecked by a vulture till we're dead but burning in a lake of fire for all eternity. 

I agree. It is totally uncool.


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## JB0704 (Oct 7, 2011)

I was more talking about the "it's her own fault."

Ambush, I don't agree with the folks who told you that, not in that context.  Even if I didn't believe in God I would still view that little girl as a precious creation just as deserving as I am.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 8, 2011)

I don't understand or disagree with this:

"But what excuse can be made if all of this is the product of an all powerful God?"

I don't understand or disagree with this:

"but whoso searcheth after a concreted sample of it will in time acquire fatigue"

I disagree with this:
"the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise"

I think that Samual Clements is critical of the society he lives in. Basically he is saying you say one thing in rightiousness and do another.

In the name of God and his Word, in his time Sam saw the North and the South give birth to many flies and the decimation of the Native American. He saw illness and disease mame and kill indiscriminately. He saw revivals, prophets, snake oil preachers, seers, new religions, factions and splits, healings and cursings, cult personalities, mania and maniacs... and many churches some brand new and many people willing to go along for many, many reasons--and that for many it was a means to just "get aheah", to belong.  But to say that God was the motivation for this evil is a stretch. Evil in this case, in his lifetime had a definite genesis and footprint. I don't agree that following the money in the case of the crimes of Evil leads to God as the criminal.

On the contrary, if Sam had lived another 100yrs...he could have shred his essay as being very short sighted.

Sam was critical of the paradoxical nature of american society, which included its destiny,  its religion,  its christianity, God "in whom they trust" etc... To condemn God for the misfits he percieved in his country or elsewhere in the world---does not follow in a condemnation of the designs of God.

PS...flies are very useful in the wild...less so on the farm...and really anoying on city streets full of horse manure...as they don't distinguish to well from dung or  a pie on a window sill. ( In Sam's day, the towns and cities were full of horse dung, coal smoke, dust and flies! Summertimes and heat waves made going on vacation to Northern Maine---a thing for the rich--and a very healty tonic. )

In the wild flies will dismember and make vanish a 150lb carcasse in a week.... How awesome is a fly! and Him that designed it. Now that man moved to the suberbs, makes the fly an issue with man,,,,not God who works all things for good.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> It's her own fault, that is, as a representative of the human race; the spawn of original sin, it is what she asked for, with her free will.




I read this and look at your avatar...and have to wonder...

Is that avatar figurative of growing up...?


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## atlashunter (Oct 8, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't understand or disagree with this:
> 
> "But what excuse can be made if all of this is the product of an all powerful God?"



A god that has the qualities attributed to the Christian god must be the source of everything. If he is the omnipotent and omniscient creator of all I'm not sure how you can not understand or disagree. 




gordon 2 said:


> I don't understand or disagree with this:
> 
> "but whoso searcheth after a concreted sample of it will in time acquire fatigue"



That is probably because it is true if you exclude the places "where man does the mercies and He collects the praise".




gordon 2 said:


> I disagree with this:
> "the proper place to hunt for the facts of His mercy, is not where man does the mercies and He collects the praise"



Why do you disagree? Anyone can do a good deed in the name of some imaginary deity. In light of that why should we credit the deity for the deeds of the man? Even if the deity were real why should anyone be credited for the works of others? Especially someone that is claimed to be all knowing and all powerful. What Twain is saying is, if you want to see what God will do for people don't look in the places where people are doing for themselves in God's name, look in the places where they do nothing and it is entirely left up to God. That is where you will best see his mercies.




gordon 2 said:


> I think that Samual Clements is critical of the society he lives in. Basically he is saying you say one thing in rightiousness and do another.



I don't think his issue in this essay is with what people do or don't do. It is with what God supposedly does and doesn't do.

Concerning the fly he was right about the pest that it makes itself to creatures that have done it no harm. What kind of mind would design such a thing? You can point to other benefits that it provides such as helping break down dead organic matter. But I can point you to similar creatures such as the Black Soldier Fly that do the same thing without being a pest or vector for disease. So his point still stands.

He is pointing out that Christians claim that a merciful and loving God not only created the child in this picture but also the flies covering his body. And left entirely in God's hands this child would slowly whither away in agony and die. What human would stand by and watch this happen with folded arms while having the power to help? What would be said of such a human? Yet it is claimed that an all powerful God does the same thing and is loving and merciful.


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## atlashunter (Oct 8, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I was more talking about the "it's her own fault."
> 
> Ambush, I don't agree with the folks who told you that, not in that context.  Even if I didn't believe in God I would still view that little girl as a precious creation just as deserving as I am.



It may have been a cheap shot, maybe. But it isn't far off from the answer often given in response when the problem of evil is raised. In fact HF already alluded to it. That it isn't Gods fault but the result of "the fall".

Would you find it any less offensive, less absurd, less unjust if Ambush replaced "it's her own fault" with "it's Adam and Eve's fault"?


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## ambush80 (Oct 8, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It may have been a cheap shot, maybe. But it isn't far off from the answer often given in response when the problem of evil is raised. In fact HF already alluded to it. That it isn't Gods fault but the result of "the fall".
> 
> Would you find it any less offensive, less absurd, less unjust if Ambush replaced "it's her own fault" with "it's Adam and Eve's fault"?




It wasn't a cheap shot.  It truly expresses how I feel about the absurdity of the "Fall of man" claim.  It's s horrible story with a horrible message that I wouldn't tell my child about. 

In those pictures I see only evidence of an indifferent natural system at work.   

I don't know how I could possibly accept that someone is at the helm.


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## JB0704 (Oct 8, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It may have been a cheap shot, maybe.



In light of the awfulness of the picture it struck me as the same as having gas at a wedding.  Sure, it's there, but maybe now's not the best time.



atlashunter said:


> Would you find it any less offensive, less absurd, less unjust if Ambush replaced "it's her own fault" with "it's Adam and Eve's fault"?



Maybe more decent.  Ambush has typically been cool in debates, I just thought a "flag" was somewhat appropriate.  But, that's just my thoughts, its an open forum.

As to the question of the fall of man, I do not think her position in life is her fault.  I think it is the fault of corrupt government and lack of international humanitarian intervention.  Shame on us.

I dont blame it on her or God.


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## JB0704 (Oct 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know how I could possibly accept that someone is at the helm.



I do understand your position, though not in the way it was phrased. I do not agree with you, or the folks who blame her, but we are all welcome to our opinions.

I am not where I can really dig into this so much today, but do hope we can get a good discussion going on this topic soon.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 8, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> A god that has the qualities attributed to the Christian god must be the source of everything. If he is the omnipotent and omniscient creator of all I'm not sure how you can not understand or disagree.
> 
> NO. God is not the source of everthing....man has free will and pretty well can be the source of many things.
> 
> ...



The point is that humans have the power to help and yet don't. Humans are the cause of starvation and suffering which is most likely caused by injustice. Our guilt in seeing this little girl is that we are the cause of her suffering and our own.

 God is always willing to set free, help, save, heal, and provide peace and a good life... but because we are free willed and selfish...always ready to take care of number one first, we can always blame God for letting little children starve were there is no oil. Because where there is oil, it is ok to kill them, they don't have to starve god or no god... And for all your hero words about saving starving children you will line up and thank those who proxy killed them for you and your way of life. They did not need to starve yet...
So I don't buy that man is a better beast than  your god. 

All I can say is that your views of God is arrested...and juvenile. And I don't mean this as an insult...it is just my assessment....

You define a god as christian from little understanding and then you make the scarecrow your wipping boy.  Your foil and your strawman are fictions to a christian... and that is what you have difficulty understanding...


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## atlashunter (Oct 8, 2011)

Gordon I appreciate your participation but please keep your responses outside of the quotation of my post. I went to the trouble of separating your answers out so I could respond but as a courtesy please don't make me have to do that again. Thanks.



gordon 2 said:


> NO. God is not the source of everthing....man has free will and pretty well can be the source of many things.



There are so many problems with the free will excuse.

First even you are saying that God is the source of free will. We only have free will because the boss says so right? Because that is his will. There is only man at all because the boss made him and wanted it that way. And there is also only a free will that includes evil choices because God willed it to be that way. If he didn't then it wouldn't have been so. Any source you want to attribute as the source of evil ultimately has it's source in God. A God that Christians claim knows the outcome of all things from the beginning. Between that foreknowledge and the power to change it that makes him responsible for all things good and bad. Doesn't matter if you are blaming evil on man, free will, the debil, or some combination thereof ultimately all of it has it's source in God.

If evil is a necessary outcome of free will then why did God choose free will knowing it brought evil? And what does that say about heaven, a place where evil supposedly will be abolished? Does that mean free will is also abolished? If so why not just skip straight to the stage that God has a bunch of robots in heaven who have no choice but to obey him and bypass all the eternal suffering of the vast majority of humanity created with the foreknowledge that they would be burned and tortured forever? If only evil will be abolished in heaven but free will remains then God was capable of doing the same here on earth and evil becomes his choice, not an unavoidable consequence.




gordon 2 said:


> But this is not the paradigm in which God acts in.... God acts through people in word and deed. Many people go well beyond what they would normally do or say because their sense of justice is far greater than all the goodness they could "naturally"muster in themselves.



Of course. And my invisible friend Willy only acts through other people too. Anyone can use that excuse. But we know what you are saying is false according to your own holy book because it cites specific cases of God intervening directly in the world, often times not for altruistic purposes but selfish ones.




gordon 2 said:


> The point is that humans have the power to help and yet don't. Humans are the cause of starvation and suffering which is most likely caused by injustice. Our guilt in seeing this little girl is that we are the cause of her suffering and our own.



No Gordon the point is that Christians claim an all knowing all powerful God that could have helped that little girl and chose not to and then call such a God loving and merciful. That is the point. And if you look at human history on the whole the case of this one child is but a drop in an ocean of suffering. Suffering which is sometimes human caused and sometimes not. In this particular case it could very well be said that it is the dispute between humans over their gods that led to her suffering. Whatever the cause, human or not, in all cases we are told God has the power to intervene on his own, without any human assistance and yet chooses not to.




gordon 2 said:


> God is always willing to set free, help, save, heal, and provide peace and a good life...



Great! What is he waiting for? What was he waiting for as that lonely child wasted away in the dirt while a vulture patiently stood by for a meal?




gordon 2 said:


> All I can say is that your views of God is arrested...and juvenile. And I don't mean this as an insult...it is just my assessment....
> 
> You define a god as christian from little understanding and then you make the scarecrow your wipping boy.  Your foil and your strawman are fictions to a christian... and that is what you have difficulty understanding...



I'm sorry that is your assessment Gordon but the claims are not mine, they are the claims made by Christians and their holy book. That is what gets them into trouble. Don't get mad at the rest of us when those claims blow up in your face. The world we find ourselves in is compatible with the concept of a loving God of limited knowledge and/or power. It is compatible with an evil or indifferent God of unlimited knowledge and power. It is compatible with no God at all. But it is _not compatible_ with an omnipotent, omniscient, and loving God. Just isn't. And if you think it is then you'll have to do better than free will or original sin to make that claim square with reality.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 8, 2011)

...God fed them with manna



He must have the day off..


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## gordon 2 (Oct 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Gordon I appreciate your participation but please keep your responses outside of the quotation of my post. I went to the trouble of separating your answers out so I could respond but as a courtesy please don't make me have to do that again. Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry for replying within your copy. I had  not realized it could be an issue. I now see it can abviously. I apologize. I don't know how you do that quote within a texte like you do...but I will find out....

About the free will thing. It is my understanding that we are physically and willfully predators by nature. And if we find ourselves apart from the animal world we identify with some animals, birds or reptiles as models. At some point(s) in human development God intervenes as a model opposed to our base nature and all other models.

My view of "God being all knowing" is that He and we also know through Him what our base natures will bring us as individuals and as societies...imediately and in time. Also holding to other models such as the Dog model, the Bull model or the Eagle model for examples are predictable.

God is not responsible for the outcomes for choosing these models or base nature. We are.

I think your assessment of scripture is interesting, but overlooks human development--- individual and social.
For me your assessment that the christian god is all powerful means a god that has majical miracle power to intervene against anything you deem a calamity. This is not the case...from the point of view or the understanding of christians...no matter what you say that understanding might be.

I can't see why God should be responsible for the calamity that befalls people because they have built their homes, their ideas and political playgrounds from international aid,--- on flood plains prone to earthquakes, cyclones, tornadoes, volcanic irruptions, frequent droughts, and giant tidal waves. And in the same way I can't see it is God's responsibility that the people chose the death penalty as a remedy to injury and then blame God for their fears and insecurities. The miracle you are asking for would stop the world from turning without any change in the way we licence realestate salespersons. The problem is that that miricle would stop the world turning and it would get very cold and very hot, so much so that it would be the last calamity... and God is not is not up to that anytime soon. And especially for the benefit of those who deny Him!  It don't add up... that the real Super Dave Osborns of this world prove God is a fiction.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2011)

Why do the believers have an excuse for God not stepping in to battle evil but they fully believe God intervenes in everything else, especially the good things?

Why isn't there an answer for why won't God save the "fly" children, but everyone has an answer for why he chose to step in and save someone with cancer, auto accident, operation procedure, playoff win, big buck harvest, etc...?

And if we have free will, why do people ask for prayers for loved ones that are in a bad way? Many times unfortunately, a loved one passes on despite the many prayers said in their name and then the person asking for those prayers says it is because it was "God's Will", "Their time to go", "God wanted them in Heaven".....

Do the Super Dave Osborns live thru those wrecks because God allows it? Do they die because God wills it? Do they live or die because the prayer quota was or was not met? Or is their fate determined by a game of chance and inches based off of their preparation and execution?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Why do the believers have an excuse for God not stepping in to battle evil but they fully believe God intervenes in everything else, especially the good things?
> 
> Why isn't there an answer for why won't God save the "fly" children, but everyone has an answer for why he chose to step in and save someone with cancer, auto accident, operation procedure, playoff win, big buck harvest, etc...?
> 
> ...



What is similar between a stoke or a heart attack and a cancer that kills and a tornado, a landside or a tidal wave that kills?

Lots of people have the minds of children when it come to miracles, but in prayer there is always the knowledge that God knows what we need. For example prayer for a dying loved one is often prayer for those suffering for the suffering and the loss that is or soon will be.

People say all kinds of things about God this and God that, but often it is just a Hail Mary that the genade will not have my number or will not dismember to extreme.

Children say the darnest things...even smart ones.

Also you should care that when analizing people's relationship with their gods that you do not confuse the extremes of their culture with the greater reality of that relationship.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> What is similar between a stoke or a heart attack and a cancer that kills and a tornado, a landside or a tidal wave that kills?
> 
> Lots of people have the minds of children when it come to miracles, but in prayer there is always the knowledge that God knows what we need. For example prayer for a dying loved one is often prayer for those suffering for the suffering and the loss that is or soon will be.
> 
> ...



What area of politics are you in?


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## gordon 2 (Oct 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> What area of politics are you in?



Conservative as the day is long, but not afraid to reward its extremes with a liberal vote. I sit on or behind no fence...and change fox holes now and then...

"Also you should care that when analizing people's relationship with their gods that you do not confuse the extremes of their culture with the greater reality of that relationship."


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## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Sorry for replying within your copy. I had  not realized it could be an issue. I now see it can abviously. I apologize. I don't know how you do that quote within a texte like you do...but I will find out....



No problem. To break up a quote just remove the /quote at the end that is contained in brackets and put that where you want the first block to end. Then copy and paste the very first part of the quote in brackets to the front of the next block of text and the /quote in brackets to the back end of that block. Hope that isn't too confusing. Basically if you do a quote you'll see an opening of the quote and a closing with the / in front of it with the text in between. You can break the text into multiple blocks with those opening and closing each block.

What I do is copy the QUOTE=atlashunter piece that is in brackets (including the brackets) and paste that where I want to start a new quote block and then type in the /quote in brackets part where I want to close the quote.




gordon 2 said:


> About the free will thing. It is my understanding that we are physically and willfully predators by nature. And if we find ourselves apart from the animal world we identify with some animals, birds or reptiles as models. At some point(s) in human development God intervenes as a model opposed to our base nature and all other models.
> 
> My view of "God being all knowing" is that He and we also know through Him what our base natures will bring us as individuals and as societies...imediately and in time. Also holding to other models such as the Dog model, the Bull model or the Eagle model for examples are predictable.
> 
> God is not responsible for the outcomes for choosing these models or base nature. We are.



All I have to say to this is that if you believe he is the creator of all things then he is also the creator of our natures. Even if you believe our nature was initially different and then corrupted by satan who created Satan and his nature? So either humans and satan have the natures that God wanted them to have because he gave them their natures knowing ahead of time what the outcome would be. Or... this god has a habit of making creatures with one nature and then ordering them to have a different nature and acting surprised and disappointed when they don't.




gordon 2 said:


> I think your assessment of scripture is interesting, but overlooks human development--- individual and social.



What does that have to do with the topic at hand?




gordon 2 said:


> For me your assessment that the christian god is all powerful means a god that has majical miracle power to intervene against anything you deem a calamity. This is not the case...from the point of view or the understanding of christians...no matter what you say that understanding might be.



You're saying he doesn't have that power?




gordon 2 said:


> I can't see why God should be responsible for the calamity that befalls people because they have built their homes, their ideas and political playgrounds from international aid,--- on flood plains prone to earthquakes, cyclones, tornadoes, volcanic irruptions, frequent droughts, and giant tidal waves.



Was it not God that created a world with all of those hazards and much more?




gordon 2 said:


> And in the same way I can't see it is God's responsibility that the people chose the death penalty as a remedy to injury and then blame God for their fears and insecurities. The miracle you are asking for would stop the world from turning without any change in the way we licence realestate salespersons. The problem is that that miricle would stop the world turning and it would get very cold and very hot, so much so that it would be the last calamity... and God is not is not up to that anytime soon. And especially for the benefit of those who deny Him!  It don't add up... that the real Super Dave Osborns of this world prove God is a fiction.



You completely lost me here.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Conservative as the day is long, but not afraid to reward its extremes with a liberal vote. I sit on or behind no fence...and change fox holes now and then...



LOLOL gotcha, I was making a joke though. I should have asked what office do you hold because sometimes you give  a lengthy in depth answer that never really addresses the question directly, much like many of our politicians do.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> LOLOL gotcha, I was making a joke though. I should have asked what office do you hold because sometimes you give  a lengthy in depth answer that never really addresses the question directly, much like many of our politicians do.



... Perhaps my answers, my participations, should be limited to "yes" and "no" and leave the gaps between the two to philosophers.

Peace to all.... I'm out of here....


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## gordon 2 (Oct 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> No problem. To break up a quote just remove the /quote at the end that is contained in brackets and put that where you want the first block to end. Then copy and paste the very first part of the quote in brackets to the front of the next block of text and the /quote in brackets to the back end of that block. Hope that isn't too confusing. Basically if you do a quote you'll see an opening of the quote and a closing with the / in front of it with the text in between. You can break the text into multiple blocks with those opening and closing each block.
> 
> What I do is copy the QUOTE=atlashunter piece that is in brackets (including the brackets) and paste that where I want to start a new quote block and then type in the /quote in brackets part where I want to close the quote.
> 
> ...



Sorry man, I guess I'm out of my league.... I regret this.


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## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Maybe more decent.  Ambush has typically been cool in debates, I just thought a "flag" was somewhat appropriate.  But, that's just my thoughts, its an open forum.
> 
> As to the question of the fall of man, I do not think her position in life is her fault.  I think it is the fault of corrupt government and lack of international humanitarian intervention.  Shame on us.
> 
> I dont blame it on her or God.



"God why did you watch this little girl suffer and die like that, doing nothing to help her?"

"Because thousands of years ago the first two people I created disobeyed me and ate fruit from a tree that I told them not to."

Is there anything decent about that? Is there anything just or logical about it?


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## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2011)

To add another stick to the fire...

Epicurus summarized the problem of evil in this way.

"Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> ... Perhaps my answers, my participations, should be limited to "yes" and "no" and leave the gaps between the two to philosophers.
> 
> Peace to all.... I'm out of here....



Ahhh don't take it personal. I like to hear a person's personal thoughts. I just wonder how some answers can be so specific that answer for God's thoughts and intentions and other answers to questions that challenge God's actions or non-actions are vague and uncertain.
It seems with many believers that the "what if" gets a definitive answer and the "what is" is answered with uncertainty. Backwards it seems.


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## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> To add another stick to the fire...
> 
> Epicurus summarized the problem of evil in this way.
> 
> "Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can, but does not want to. If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent. If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked. If God can abolish evil, and God really wants to do it, why is there evil in the world?"



Epicurus left out "will not." Then we are left asking "why not."  

I think the answer is somewhere between what you believe and what the "absolutists" believe.  But it has something to do with a "wheel in motion" concept.  To understand, we have to try and see ourselves from the perspective of God. Why doesn't he stop it?  Not sure.  But that does not eliminate his existence.  

I think the gazelles probably consider lions evil.  But from our perspective, it is the natural order when one gets eaten by the other.  I would agree that humans are inherently different (though you would argue not as we all evolved from the same rock).  The girls condition is a result of humans being humans, and as such, we are products of our environment.  But God is not responsible when we fail.  The girl's condition is a human failure.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Epicurus left out "will not." Then we are left asking "why not."
> 
> I think the answer is somewhere between what you believe and what the "absolutists" believe.  But it has something to do with a "wheel in motion" concept.  To understand, we have to try and see ourselves from the perspective of God. Why doesn't he stop it?  Not sure. But that does not eliminate his existence.
> 
> I think the gazelles probably consider lions evil.  But from our perspective, it is the natural order when one gets eaten by the other.  I would agree that humans are inherently different (though you would argue not as we all evolved from the same rock).  The girls condition is a result of humans being humans, and as such, we are products of our environment.  But God is not responsible when we fail.  The girl's condition is a human failure.



I think the question is what proves God's existence? 

Are gazelles "smart" enough to know evil? No god steps in and saves gazelles, no god steps in and saves humans, no god does anything.


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## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I think the question is what proves God's existence?
> 
> Are gazelles "smart" enough to know evil? No god steps in and saves gazelles, no god steps in and saves humans, no god does anything.



I think we are debating the same subject across three different threads here.....


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## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Epicurus left out "will not." Then we are left asking "why not."
> 
> I think the answer is somewhere between what you believe and what the "absolutists" believe.  But it has something to do with a "wheel in motion" concept.  To understand, we have to try and see ourselves from the perspective of God. Why doesn't he stop it?  Not sure.  But that does not eliminate his existence.



You're right. It does not eliminate his existence. But it does shed light on his nature if he does exist. The problem of evil is not a proof that no god exists. It is a very strong challenge to the claim that a god with the nature and features Christians give their god exists.




JB0704 said:


> I think the gazelles probably consider lions evil.  But from our perspective, it is the natural order when one gets eaten by the other.  I would agree that humans are inherently different (though you would argue not as we all evolved from the same rock).  The girls condition is a result of humans being humans, and as such, we are products of our environment.  But God is not responsible when we fail.  The girl's condition is a human failure.



Whatever you want to say her condition is a result of, it is a condition that a Christian must believe their God is aware of, has the power to remedy, and chooses to allow to persist.


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## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Whatever you want to say her condition is a result of, it is a condition that a Christian must believe their God is aware of, has the power to remedy, and chooses to allow to persist.



And then we have to ask "why?"  If we can assume a god exists, we can explore the question, yes?


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## atlashunter (Oct 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> And then we have to ask "why?"  If we can assume a god exists, we can explore the question, yes?



Absolutely. If you can credit such a God as being pure love and goodness I would like to know how. Twain rightly points out that any human behaving in similar fashion would be deemed evil.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

I promise you this won't be an exhaustive or "sufficient" answer and I'll have to clarify.  But let me try to put my understanding down in typeset and we'll see how it goes.

First things first...this entire discussion is essentially framed in the context of "this life is it".  The question that is being asked should be less "Why does God allow suffering?" and more "Why does God allow suffering in this life?".  

Now, I'll clarify in a second.  But let me just acknowledge that I understand the athiests in the room will dismiss me as presenting a cop out.  But please hear it from the perspective of one who believes deeply in the existence of not just A god, but in THE God.

We (believers) do not live only in the context of this life.  Absolutely, 100%, without a doubt....there are some who, in this life have it easy (i.e. most of us); who live in luxury and who suffer little if at all.  And on the flip side we have children...innocents...who are covered with flies and who are stalked by vultures as they lay dieing.  

The latter is a heartbreaking reality and there is no way it can be considered "fair" in any regard.  But please understand this.  From God's perspective (and ours), there can be nothing greater than eternal fellowship with him in heaven.  If our life on earth mattered in contrast with eternity, he would have sent Jesus, not to die for sins, but to guarantee each person a winning Powerball ticket.  Does that make sense?

What God did for us, in order to remedy the Fall, was to send Christ to die for the forgiveness of our sins that we might spend eternity with him and in his presence.  Now, I understand that that fact means nothing to you.  You can't fathom that sacrificing this life for the ability to spend eternity in the presence of God is better.  It sounds not only un-interesting, but like the greatest cop-out I could present I'm sure.  Not much I can do about that.  But I'm only trying to answer the OP's question...not convince you to change your mind.

That video and Twain wrongly put forth the idea that once "the lights go out" that's it and, so, God let her suffer for nothing....she suffered and then she died and that's where the thought process ends.  But for the Christian, that's not the entire story and it must be framed in that context.  There is suffering here and temporarily....because of the fall.  BUT, because of the redemptive work of Christ on the cross...there is no suffering in Heaven and for eternity.

So let's go back to "Why does God allow suffering?".  The answer, for me, is really just that this life matters not.  Does that comfort that little girl while she is being stalked and eaten (possibly alive) by that vulture?  No....not even a little bit.  Imagine with me though...after it's over...when God (figuratively) scoops her up in his arms, her body restored, and she looks into the loving face of the almighty Creator.  At that moment, does the suffering in this life matter to her (again...from the perspective of a believer)? 

I hope this makes even a little bit of sense so that you undestand why I can believe in God and see this level of suffering.  I fully acknowledge the suffering and the fact that it is not fair.  That little girl lived 2, maybe 3 years in this life...and she will live for eternity with God...just like me.  Her life here was entirely unfair and undeserved.  Part of it was "them's just the breaks...you were born in Africa and the world left you to die.".  Part of it is God's permissive will.

Another Christian cop-out for you to ponder with this...Evil is never good.  But, God uses evil for good all the time.  Take a hypothetical stretch with me...

...if that picture of that little girl impacts somebody here in the States so deeply that they are moved to find the "solution" for starving in Africa.  If they figure out how to feed all those people and, through their life, not a single person on the planet ever starves again....and it is because of that picture....was it "worth it"?  Obviously the little girl might not see the "purpose" of her suffering.  But, just what if....what if that little girl's suffering was the catilyst for the "solution" to starvation around the world.  Would God allowing that girl to suffer have been a good thing?

Again...this is too long already, so I'll quit and read responses.  I'm sure that I've done a terrible job of explaining what's in my brain and on my heart this morning.  I've had to think a lot about this issue the past few days.  It's not an easy answer.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

What people believe and what is actually the truth is often two entirely different things.

It is comforting to HOPE there is something more beyond this life and it helps some people cope with reality, but no one knows anything for sure.
No one can speak as to why a God allows anything unless a God specifically told them and if he told them...he can tell us all.
Please don't insult us by telling us why a God doesn't step in and help, then in another thread at another time, tell us why a God does step in and help. 
It is borderline sickening to hear that a God wouldn't step in and save that poor little helpless fly infested girl because he is going to give her a better time in another life, but tell us how a God DID step in and save a neighbor/family member/friend from  a car wreck..cancer..tree falling on house but missing the family.. or any one of the dozens upon dozens of stories about how a God chooses to save some but not others.

HF your reply above is well thought out and well put. You make a great case for other believers to continue to believe, but it does not make any sense to someone outside of those beliefs. I KNOW that you are sincere and it comes from your heart. I cannot fault you for that. To others though, it sounds like excuses being made for a non existent being. They are stories about how a God wasn't there when he should have been and stories about how he was there when he wasn't. In every case the only thing actually missing is a God.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> It is comforting to HOPE there is something more beyond this life and it helps some people cope with reality, but no one knows anything for sure.



You're right....





> What people believe and what is actually the truth is often two entirely different things.



Ha!



> Please don't insult us by telling us why a God doesn't step in and help, then in another thread at another time, tell us why a God does step in and help.



I hope I haven't done that.  I can't tell you, in specific situations, "why"....on either side of the coin...good and bad outcome.  The specific why could be my hypothetical from my previous post....but I don't know.

I can tell you broadly "why".  But specifically and in every situation...no way.  I do not know the mind of God and there are (biblically speaking) secret things that I will not know.




> It is borderline sickening to hear that a God wouldn't step in and save that poor little helpless fly infested girl because he is going to give her a better time in another life



But that's what you're not getting and I, honestly, wouldn't expect you to.  He will save her.  But she will suffer for a short time.  Did she deserve it?  In the sense that we are all sinners, we all deserve it.  But she, somehow deserve to be in that situation more than ME?  Absolutely not.  Your perspective is that she suffers and then that's it.  So it's even more unfair.  I know you hear what I'm saying...but it doesn't register...I get that.

I agree with you...to me it feels like almost borderline blasphemy for Christians in the U.S. to shout "Praise God" constantly when he protects them from stubbing their toe and yet we ignore suffering and never cry out to him in agony over their suffering.  We are more concerned with a boo boo on our toe than we are that the flies are eating that child alive.  It is disgraceful.



> but it does not make any sense to someone outside of those beliefs.



....and I get that and admitted it.  I'm not trying to change your mind in this thread.  Just trying to help you understand mine.  I won't quote you all the stuff about what the Bible says about why people who don't believe won't get it.  You know all that.  I'm just trying to help you understand how I can believe in a loving God who also allows suffering.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You're right....
> 
> Ha!
> 
> ...



HF, I gotta say I like the conversations with you when you keep it civil.
I know what your saying and it does register. It is just that after absorbing what you say(and others) it does not make sense. I can fully understand it but it goes against my better judgement to believe it and go along with it. (Kind of like when a Prince of Nigeria wants me to help him get his fortune out of gridlock and in turn he will reward me with some cash....all I gotta do is trust him and give him my account numbers....... I understand him, his touching story registers, but something STILL tells me not to go along with it!)


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## TheBishop (Oct 10, 2011)

Hey Hf I know you say god has a plan for her and she will be saved afterlife but what is she is a muslim? According to christians she suffers now, and will suffer then, just becuase of the way she was raised?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> Kind of like when a Prince of Nigeria wants me to help him get his fortune out of gridlock and in turn he will reward me with some cash



DON'T DO IT!


I hear the return on that investment is not quite what's promised!  Ha!


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> Hey Hf I know you say god has a plan for her and she will be saved afterlife but what is she is a muslim? According to christians she suffers now, and will suffer then, just becuase of the way she was raised?



She is 2...or 3 at best.  She is neither Christian nor Muslim.  She is a baby.  

If she professes faith in Allah, then she ends up with the same eternal fate of all others who are not followers of Christ.  Same as all other non-believers.  

Do I believe that would be what caused her present day suffering?  No...likely not.  But again...I do not know the mind of God in every situation.


BTW...Your argument about "just because of the way she was raised" is a weak one at best....but you know that.  Each person decides for themselves who they will follow.  You, Atlas and many others are living proof of that Bishop.  Do you not see that?  Africa is experiencing the single greatest explosion in conversions to Christianity of any area in the entire world.  For you to make the assumption that she would be muslim just "because of the way she was raised" is a tired argument.  You consider putting that horse out to pasture before you break her back from riding her so hard.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> HF, I gotta say I like the conversations with you when you keep it civil.



I have my moments bullethead...don't get used to it!!!


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## atlashunter (Oct 10, 2011)

I'll respond later when I have enough time. Have to get on the road for work. Do want to say though in response to bullet that the original question assumes God's existence so you can't reject an answer that assumes the same on that basis.


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## TheBishop (Oct 10, 2011)

> For you to make the assumption that she would be muslim just "because of the way she was raised" is a tired argument. You consider putting that horse out to pasture before you break her back from riding her so hard.



What is the predominate religion in africa?   I'll give you a hint it begins with a mu and ends with a slim.

And is the argument tired becuase it hold true more often than not?


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## TripleXBullies (Oct 10, 2011)

HF... I can definitely see your point of suffering in life but then seeing his face making it all better. If that is the case though, then why are we here for any period of time if this doesn't matter at all? It's certainly not for his glory using this child as an example.

Also, with your example on how this picture may motivate someone to solve world hunger (which is actually not what's causes the suffering in Darfur and the rest of Sudan - I watched the vid earlier, I think that's where this was). That still goes with what Twain wrote. Is it RIGHT for god to claim the glory of that person's works? Christians could claim that for god when it is CONCRETE that it was the work of a man.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> What is the predominate religion in africa? I'll give you a hint it begins with a mu and ends with a slim.
> 
> And is the argument tired becuase it hold true more often than not?



No....it's tired because it's old and worn out and it doesn't hold true nearly as often as you'd conveniently like it to.

Here are a few countries that have changed a bit over the past 100 years.  % "Christian" in 1900 and then in 2000:

                        1900           2000
Congo-Zaire  1.4%        95.4%
Angola            0.6%        94.1%
Swaziland       1.0%       86.9%
Zambia           0.3%        82.4%
Kenya             0.2%        79.3%
Malawi           1.8%        76.8%


and here are a few more %'s Christian from 2000:

Seychelles 96.9% 
Saint Helena 96.2% 
Sao Tomé & Principe 95.8% 
Cape Verde Islands 95.1% 
Namibia 92.3% 
Burundi 91.7% 
Congo-Brazzaville 91.2% 
Lesotho 91% 
Gabon 90.6% 
Uganda 88.7% 
South Africa 83.1% 
Rwanda 82.7% 
Spanish North Africa 80.3% 
Equatorial Guinea 76.6% 
Central African Republic 67.8%
Zimbabwe 67.5%
Botswana 59.9% 
Cameroon 54.2% 
Ethiopia 57.7%
Ghana 55.4% 
Eritrea 50.5% 
Tanzania 50.4% 
Madagascar 49.5% 
Nigeria 45.9%
Togo 42.6% 

(yes....from a Christian organization.  It's all I could find quickly.  But it illustrates the point and I have no reason to believe they are fabricated.  Wiki seems to agree as do a few others I checked)


Like Bullethead said:



> What people believe and what is actually the truth is often two entirely different things.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> No....it's tired because it's old and worn out and it doesn't hold true nearly as often as you'd conveniently like it to.
> 
> Here are a few countries that have changed a bit over the past 100 years.  % "Christian" in 1900 and then in 2000:
> 
> ...



Heyyyyyy, all I got before was a "Ha"! Now your quoting me??? I'm flattered.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> If that is the case though, then why are we here for any period of time if this doesn't matter at all? It's certainly not for his glory using this child as an example.



I wondered who would ask that question....I figured it would come up.

I'm honestly not sure I have a great answer.  Here's how it looks as I understand it.  God made all creation and it was good.  We are here because we are part of a good creation that has been corrupted.

Jesus, in the great commission, commanded us to go and make disciples of all nations....because John tells us that God so loved the world that he gave his son that none should perish (i.e. he does not desire that we perish).  We are here...from the Christian perspective...to go and make disciples of all nations. 

Why are YOU here?  I guess to give me something to work on!



> Is it RIGHT for god to claim the glory of that person's works? Christians could claim that for god when it is CONCRETE that it was the work of a man.



The first couple of questions in most catechisms (think brainwashing material) answer this.  

Who made you? - God

What else did God make? - All things

Why did God make all things? - For his glory

It's not a question of whether God gets to take credit.  All things are made with the intent of giving him glory.

The next logical question you'll ask is "how does that little girl's situation give him glory?"  I suppose it doesn't.  Not that I know of.

In its original form, creation reflected the glory of God and everything in it was good.  Sin enters the picture via free will and, quite literally...all hades broke loose.  That's the basics of it.  I don't have time to expand and I know it will get taken out of context.  So I hope you guys can forgive the brevity and read the intent of the response.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Heyyyyyy, all I got before was a "Ha"! Now your quoting me??? I'm flattered.



You're moving up in the world.  Watch out!  You'll be on the speed dial shortly (you watch Seinfeld back in the day?).


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You're moving up in the world.  Watch out!  You'll be on the speed dial shortly (you watch Seinfeld back in the day?).



Giddy-up!


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I wondered who would ask that question....I figured it would come up.
> 
> I'm honestly not sure I have a great answer.  Here's how it looks as I understand it.  God made all creation and it was good.  We are here because we are part of a good creation that has been corrupted.
> 
> ...



Now HF, God keeps making things that He KNOWS are going to fail him.
Adam&Eve.....forbidden to eat the fruit....puts fruit there KNOWING they will eat it....we pay for eternity.

Noah commanded to build an ark because God is so displeased with his creations that he decides to drown them all and let these 8 people(repopulate the world and have their offspring turn into every race,creed, and example of the diverse changes to mankind in only a couple thousand years.....but anyway....) do us all good by honoring his glory by obeying him. Only he must have screwed up and picked the wrong 8 people, because nothing changed...(but he would have known that) so...

 After the next few thousand years of chaos made by the offspring of his hand picked 8.... God decided the ONLY way to fix us humans.....despite him being capable of accomplishing anything with the bat of an eyelash....he decides to send his only Son to "save" us.  ONLY the people who believe in his son are worthy though(again...KNOWING who will and who won't a trillion centuries before he created the earth....) 

And yet 2000+ years later he lets flies pester an already dying girl until the buzzards get to start the feast before she takes her last breath ALL because that is what she deserved(adam&eve) so she can go to a better life elsewhere. 

Somehow I do not see any Glory there. I do not make excuses for my hero, I hold him accountable.


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## TripleXBullies (Oct 10, 2011)

We've talked about it elsewhere, but since evil comes from us, we all deserve to go out like that. A pitiful way to look at your own existense....



bullethead said:


> Now HF, God keeps making things that He KNOWS are going to fail him.
> Adam&Eve.....forbidden to eat the fruit....puts fruit there KNOWING they will eat it....we pay for eternity.
> 
> Noah commanded to build an ark because God is so displeased with his creations that he decides to drown them all and let these 8 people(repopulate the world and have their offspring turn into every race,creed, and example of the diverse changes to mankind in only a couple thousand years.....but anyway....) do us all good by honoring his glory by obeying him. Only he must have screwed up and picked the wrong 8 people, because nothing changed...(but he would have known that) so...
> ...


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## TheBishop (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> No....it's tired because it's old and worn out and it doesn't hold true nearly as often as you'd conveniently like it to.
> 
> Here are a few countries that have changed a bit over the past 100 years.  % "Christian" in 1900 and then in 2000:
> 
> ...



Good dodge but um no.  The dominate religion of Africa is Muslim. 45% muslim to a 40% christian.  If we talk north africa muslim domnate by a much wider margin.  If we throw all the other hethen religions in there, there is a 60%chance the child is not christian. 

And yes it holds true more often than you will conveintly admit it does.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

You don't hold an omnipotent God accountable...


If you'll grant me that God created all creation for one reason, his glory, then I can try to answer your post.  Take the sarcasm out and you've actually got a lot of truth in there from my perspective.

God created the earth and everything in it for his glory.  For us?  No.  For our satisfaction?  No.  For our comfort?  No.  For his glory and only for his glory (which I'm sure sound arrogant to you...we can talk about that another time).

Did he intend for us to enjoy creation, be comfortable and be satisfied in creation?  Absolutely.  But one of the things that best reflects glory on God is when creation freely chooses to love and obey him as creator (I'm already doing a horrible job of explaining what I want to say!).

When God created man, he knew the end at the beginning.  No doubt.  He cannot me omniscient if he didn't.  I cannot understand eternity, and so it would be hard for me to explain it.  But I do know that God does not live on a linear timeline as we do.  There is no yesterday, today, tomorrow.  Beginning and end, all time at the same time is the best I can understand it.

So, yes, he created Adam and Eve and knew they would sin.  Did he cause them to sin?  No, I don't believe so.  He created them and gave them the ability to sin.  Why?  So that when those who reflect his image choose to follow him, he receives glory.  Robots follow commands.  But there is no glory in creating something that has no say in the matter.  When a child obeys out of love and respect, the parent is made proud and lifted up.

That whole story that you just told.  There is remarkable continuity in the story to get to Jesus, don't you think?  I mean, if it's true, think about all of the amazing things that had to happen exactly right just to get to Jesus.  Think about all the promises, prophecies, etc that had to happen exactly right for Jesus to be born of the line he was promised.  Think about the miracle births that occured, the deceptions, the murders, the blessings, the curses...all the things to ensure that Jesus would be born exactly as was promised at the beginning.  It's really pretty amazing to watch that part of the story wind through the Bible.

He didn't decide to send Jesus when the offspring of Noah screwed everything up.  It had already been decided and promised in the Garden of Eden.



> And yet 2000+ years later he lets flies pester an already dying girl until the buzzards get to start the feast before she takes her last breath ALL because that is what she deserved(adam&eve) so she can go to a better life elsewhere.
> 
> Somehow I do not see any Glory there.



Again...you're framing this in the "she takes her last breath and that's it...wasted life" context.  The glory is not in the suffering, it is in the redemption of spending eternity with her creator who loves her.  

I'm not even going to pretend like I understand.  I can't fathom that type of suffering.  It's beyond my ability to comprehend.  You do seem to blame God 100% for her suffering though, which I don't understand.  Was there no one who had the ability to stop what happened to her?  Or was it just that no one cared enough to help?

We do have a role in the suffering in the world....humans do.  It's not as if we are desperately trying to do good in Darfur and God is just not letting us because he's, somehow, amused by watching the vulture stalk her.


----------



## TheBishop (Oct 10, 2011)

This might be a stupid question but why would an entity powerful enough to create all need glory?


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> Good dodge but um no. The dominate religion of Africa is Muslim. 45% muslim to a 40% christian. If we talk north africa muslim domnate by a much wider margin. If we throw all the other hethen religions in there, there is a 60%chance the child is not christian.
> 
> And yes it holds true more often than you will conveintly admit it does.



The dominant religion in Africa is Muslim....because Bishop says so?  

I suppose you simply dismiss the stats I quoted showing 90+% Christian in many of those countries...and growing.  Muslim is historically the dominant religion.  It is rapidly losing ground because individuals are hearing the Gospel of Jesus Christ and rejecting the teaching of their parents.  

Of course, religion has a lot to do with where you are born and who you are born to...as does fashion sense....so what?  Bishop, tell me....where were you born?  What religion did your parents subscribe to?  I suppose you're just one of the "smart, lucky ones" that saw the light and the rest are simple-minded sheep with no ability to make decisions for themselves?


I'm sorry bud.  You make a lot of great points.  But this wasn't one of them.


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> This might be a stupid question but why would an entity powerful enough to create all need glory?



I don't think it's a stupid question.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 10, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> This might be a stupid question but why would an entity powerful enough to create all need glory?



Because when man invented him (god), he (man) inadvertently made him in his image (mans image,mans faults).. With all gods emotions in the bible, hes very needy, like an insecure girlfriend almost. Far from omnipotent. 

He _needs_ praise, he _needs_ glory, he _needs_ constant attention and affirmation.

I know PEOPLE who do good deeds and wish to remain anonymous, nowhere in the bible is god show that kind of unselfishness. I know people who show more 'godlike ' tendency's than how the god in the bible is portrayed.


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

bigred....would you shoot me a PM when you actually post something constructive that adds to a conversation? 

I'd appreciate it.




You just contradicted yourself....in the same post.  Your ability to do that is remarkable...truly.

You just said that man made God in man's image....to be needy.  Need attention, need glory, need affirmation.  And then you completely contradicted what you say the nature of humans is:



> I know PEOPLE who do good deeds and wish to remain anonymous, nowhere in the bible is god show that kind of unselfishness. I know people who show more 'godlike ' tendency's than how the god in the bible is portrayed.



Just shoot me a PM.


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## TheBishop (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The dominant religion in Africa is Muslim....because Bishop says so?



No the WWW does.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Religion_in_Africa






> I suppose you're just one of the "smart, lucky ones" that saw the light and the rest are simple-minded sheep with no ability to make decisions for themselves?



Yes I am, and I am a minority. Smart but not lucky.


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 10, 2011)

> No the WWW does.



Not going to address the numbers I posted?  Where do you think they came from?

Bottom line is that you freely chose to reject the idea of God.  All others are free to do so as well...or to choose which god they will serve.  You're assertion that where you are born determines who you will serve is beyond ridiculous.  It is an influencing factor.  It is not the determining factor.  

The very fact that Christianity is exploding in Africa (and that fact cannot be refuted), regardless of whether it's currently the dominant religion, shows that to be true.  If geography was the determining factor, then evangelism would be pointless.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You don't hold an omnipotent God accountable...


I do not see that quality



Huntinfool said:


> That whole story that you just told.  There is remarkable continuity in the story to get to Jesus, don't you think?  I mean, if it's true, think about all of the amazing things that had to happen exactly right just to get to Jesus.  Think about all the promises, prophecies, etc that had to happen exactly right for Jesus to be born of the line he was promised.  Think about the miracle births that occured, the deceptions, the murders, the blessings, the curses...all the things to ensure that Jesus would be born exactly as was promised at the beginning.  It's really pretty amazing to watch that part of the story wind through the Bible.


Exactly? Amazing? Ever since the OT was written there has been claim after claim, story after story about how those vague prophesies point to Jesus and others that have made the claim to have fulfilled the prophesy. It is not "exactly & amazing" writing for the writers of the NT to tie it in with the OT.  



Huntinfool said:


> He didn't decide to send Jesus when the offspring of Noah screwed everything up.  It had already been decided and promised in the Garden of Eden.


Evidence?





Huntinfool said:


> Again...you're framing this in the "she takes her last breath and that's it...wasted life" context.  The glory is not in the suffering, it is in the redemption of spending eternity with her creator who loves her.


I don't believe that. I doubt that is the belief of her parents religion if they are not Christian(honestly I doubt they believe that even if they are) and it is a great example of drinking the Kool-aide because if that was the case......every Christian would/should immediately end it all and go to the happy place. Eliminate the stop over and go right to the resort.




Huntinfool said:


> I'm not even going to pretend like I understand.  I can't fathom that type of suffering.  It's beyond my ability to comprehend.  You do seem to blame God 100% for her suffering though, which I don't understand.  Was there no one who had the ability to stop what happened to her?  Or was it just that no one cared enough to help?


I don't blame God for for her suffering because I don't think there is a God devious enough to allow it. I don't believe there is a god capable of saving one person(according to believers) and turning the cheek on another. If there is a God that could stop that and does not, i don't want anything to do with it. I don't want a god that picks and chooses.




Huntinfool said:


> We do have a role in the suffering in the world....humans do.  It's not as if we are desperately trying to do good in Darfur and God is just not letting us because he's, somehow, amused by watching the vulture stalk her.


I have to wonder how do you know? 
I wonder if the powers that be in Darfur belong to the rising population of Christians or something else?
I wonder what her prayers were?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Not going to address the numbers I posted?  Where do you think they came from?
> 
> Bottom line is that you freely chose to reject the idea of God.  All others are free to do so as well...or to choose which god they will serve.  You're assertion that where you are born determines who you will serve is beyond ridiculous.  It is an influencing factor.  It is not the determining factor.
> 
> The very fact that Christianity is exploding in Africa (and that fact cannot be refuted), regardless of whether it's currently the dominant religion, shows that to be true.  If geography was the determining factor, then evangelism would be pointless.



Honestly, how do you think Christianity spread in Africa? was it because the majority of the population found ancient scrolls that told the same story as those found in the middle east? Is it because many Africans take the family to the Holy Land on vacation and are won over by the magnitude of it all? Or do you think they "found" Jesus about the same way the Native Americans did?


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Africa

http://www.wadsworth.com/religion_d/special_features/popups/maps/matthews_world/content/map_01.html


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

I wonder why religion is growing in 3rd world countries and declining elsewhere? Is it that the 3rd world countries are where the advanced countries were hundreds of years ago and in need of some sort of hope......while the advanced countries are starting to see religion beyond it's usefulness?


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## bigreddwon (Oct 10, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> bigred....would you shoot me a PM when you actually post something constructive that adds to a conversation?
> 
> I'd appreciate it.
> 
> ...



How do you not understand what I meant? Christians describe god one way.. The bible portrays him in the complete opposite way.. Its not me whose contradicting himself.. Remember, I _know_ there is _no_ god. Just as I _know_ there is no 'magic' or fairy's.. 

Human nature? That's a contradiction? Because some people can do good things and not want, or expect to be praised for it might be a contradiction in itself. We all want praise, we all want to be recognized, but some people in certain acts of kindness don't want or need it. That in itself _*is*_ a contradiction, but a good one IMO. People being people will contradict themselves, a PERFECT deity, would NOT.. ever..


Oh, and stop telling me where to post or how to communicate, if I feel the desire to send you a PM, I will. If you don't want to read my post, put me on your iggy list, I wont mind.

Man created god, not the other way around. If it WERE the other way, he wouldn't want need or CARE to be praised, glorified, exalted or any of MANs emotional need  n wants. Period. It would, be beneath him. It further proves my point that he is indeed, entirely man-made.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 10, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I wonder why religion is growing in 3rd world countries and declining elsewhere? Is it that the 3rd world countries are where the advanced countries were hundreds of years ago and in need of some sort of hope......while the advanced countries are starting to see religion beyond it's usefulness?



The Christian church historically go's after folks that are impoverished, uneducated and in dire straights. The closer they are to 'the bottom of the barrel' of life, the easier it is to convert them. They after all _sell_ hope, and a better life. The worse off the folks are the more you'll see the church preying on them. Thats why in educated country's, the bulk of new 'recruits' are drug addicts, alcoholics,the terminally ill, people who've lost everything and have little hope. 

Smart tactics, but equally deplorable IMO.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> The Christian church historically go's after folks that are impoverished, uneducated and in dire straights. The closer they are to 'the bottom of the barrel' of life, the easier it is to convert them. They after all _sell_ hope, and a better life. The worse off the folks are the more you'll see the church preying on them. Thats why in educated country's, the bulk of new 'recruits' are drug addicts, alcoholics,the terminally ill, people who've lost everything and have little hope.
> 
> Smart tactics, but equally deplorable IMO.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 10, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> The Christian church historically go's after folks that are impoverished, uneducated and in dire straights.



That's because most of the people who have ever lived have been "impoverished, uneducated and in dire straights."  As Milton Friedman said, "the normal condition of mankind is tyranny and misery."




bigreddwon said:


> Thats why in educated country's, the bulk of new 'recruits' are drug addicts, alcoholics,the terminally ill, people who've lost everything and have little hope.



Too ridiculous to warrant further comment.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2011)

I have an unusual loss of words


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## JB0704 (Oct 10, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Smart tactics, but equally deplorable IMO.



Deplorable?


I wonder how deplorable it is to the many, many people who are fed, have houses built, have wells dug where there is a  need for clean water.  How many children are educated, lives changed?  .............All in the name of Jesus.  How is that deplorable?

Let's talk about drug addicts in modern societies, I would assume getting help from Christians is no less helpful than getting help from "heathens," and I would assume the clean addict is just as thankful the folks who helped were believers as he would be if it came from non-believers.  Often Christians do good not to recruit, but because it is the right thing to do.  

These are the good parts of religion.


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## ambush80 (Oct 10, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Deplorable?
> 
> 
> I wonder how deplorable it is to the many, many people who are fed, have houses built, have wells dug where there is a  need for clean water.  How many children are educated, lives changed?  .............All in the name of Jesus.  How is that deplorable?
> ...



Except that you are convincing them that they should do the right thing to please a god that may not exist as opposed to that they do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.  

Not to mention the side effects of such a belief.


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## JB0704 (Oct 11, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Except that you are convincing them that they should do the right thing to please a god that may not exist as opposed to that they do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.
> 
> Not to mention the side effects of such a belief.



My point is that it seems we overlook the whole reason many Christians go to Africa.  My wife has gone, I have several friends who have gone, I know many more who have sent money or supplies in order to help folks.  It has less to do with prothelytizing and more to do with helping.  I don't get how that is deplorable.

I guess I see these as being the good things about faith, when it is used to help others.  Help is help, and I am sure those folks appreciate clean water, regardless of who it came from.  What difference does it make if the person digging the well also tells them about Jesus?  If they want no part of it, they don't have to buy it.  They get clean water either way.

I have many issues with religion, this is not one of them.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 11, 2011)

> Except that you are convincing them that they should do the right thing to please a god that may not exist as opposed to that they do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.



They do the right thing because it's the right thing to do.  God agrees with you on what the right thing to do is.  They do not help in order to coerce them.  That's the most cynical view possible and wholesale untrue in almost all cases.




> Not to mention the side effects of such a belief.



Which are?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 11, 2011)

> Too ridiculous to warrant further comment.



CF,

If you want, I'll shoot you a PM when he posts something that actually contributes to a conversation.  He's supposed to be notifying me when it happens.  I'll pass the word.

Think of it as a public service from HF.


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 11, 2011)

> Honestly, how do you think Christianity spread in Africa? was it because the majority of the population found ancient scrolls that told the same story as those found in the middle east? Is it because many Africans take the family to the Holy Land on vacation and are won over by the magnitude of it all? Or do you think they "found" Jesus about the same way the Native Americans did?



They were evangelized by other Christians.  Did you hear me say somewhere that they "found Jesus" on their own?  

I'm not sure what your point is.  Christ commanded us to take the gospel to all nations.  Funny thing is that the growth in Africa, at this point, is not because of traditional missionary work.  It is internal, like a fire that was started with a match and is now spreading from within.  Africans are evangelizing each other by the thousands on a daily basis.

Soon, there will be no doubt what the dominant religion in the region is.


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## bullethead (Oct 11, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> They were evangelized by other Christians.  Did you hear me say somewhere that they "found Jesus" on their own?
> 
> I'm not sure what your point is.  Christ commanded us to take the gospel to all nations.  Funny thing is that the growth in Africa, at this point, is not because of traditional missionary work.  It is internal, like a fire that was started with a match and is now spreading from within.  Africans are evangelizing each other by the thousands on a daily basis.
> 
> Soon, there will be no doubt what the dominant religion in the region is.



And the Dallas Cowboys are the most popular nfl team.....what is your point?


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 11, 2011)

Bishop made the argument that the dominant religion is Muslim because of geographic history and that it will stay that way because people simply associate with whatever religion they are born into.  Islam is definitely dominant as of today.  Soon it will not be if the exponential growth of Christianity continues as is has been for quite a while now.  That's the point.

I was showing that people choose what religion (if any) they will follow once they have the ability to do so and don't simply fall in line because they were told to.  You and he are living proof of that...and so are the millions of African Christians.  They were likely born Muslim, but have decided that God is the one who is to be followed.

...and before we get back into "well Christians buy their affection with money, housing and food", let me just correct the thinking there.

I've seen what is happening specifically in Ethiopia and have dear friends on the ground there right now.  Muslims are the ones that are buying affection.  They have a mosque on every corner, quite literally.  They draw the children in with food and free education because they know that, if they get the kids, they will maintain their status...at least that's what thier trying to do.  

There is only one school in the entire country of Ethiopia with the word "Christian" in the name...and it will open next fall.  There are 100's on the other side.  

Christianity is exploding despite the strategic efforts of the muslim faith to continue dominance in the region...and it is not because of money.  It is because the gospel is being spread internally by native Africans who are passionate.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 11, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> CF,
> 
> If you want, I'll shoot you a PM when he posts something that actually contributes to a conversation.  He's supposed to be notifying me when it happens.  I'll pass the word.
> 
> Think of it as a public service from HF.



Thanks! I would appreciate it.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 11, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Bishop made the argument that the dominant religion is Muslim because of geographic history and that it will stay that way because people simply associate with whatever religion they are born into.  Islam is definitely dominant as of today.  Soon it will not be if the exponential growth of Christianity continues as is has been for quite a while now.  That's the point.
> 
> I was showing that people choose what religion (if any) they will follow once they have the ability to do so and don't simply fall in line because they were told to.  You and he are living proof of that...and so are the millions of African Christians.  They were likely born Muslim, but have decided that God is the one who is to be followed.
> 
> ...



I understand it is growing there. I understand it is shrinking in other countries. All religions fluctuate. I think what I am trying to get at is because a religion is on the rise does not make the "more right" religion. Christianity is spreading in Africa, that is certainly the case in some areas. It is because it's another avenue of hope....a new set of beliefs to try.....new promises of a better life.....not because a god has chosen them and has performed miracles to change their lives.


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## bigreddwon (Oct 11, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Deplorable?
> 
> 
> I wonder how deplorable it is to the many, many people who are fed, have houses built, have wells dug where there is a  need for clean water.  How many children are educated, lives changed?  .............All in the name of Jesus.  How is that deplorable?
> ...



I have _seen_ that, but it is the exception, and not the rule. I've seen people from church's help people who have declared they are atheist and still helped.  Good people. Most of the die hard Christian people I've known were of those I described in my previous post tho.  In pretty bad places in life. That's just my take on it from the life I've lived.


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## atlashunter (Oct 11, 2011)

Ok I've had some time to think about this. I'll try to keep it short as I'm worn out tonight.

The response that the question of evil is too narrow in scope because it is looking only at the current life amounts to more of a sidestepping of the question than an answer to the question. In the first place as Bishop pointed out even in the Christian concept of after life evil is not eliminated for everyone. Instead the situation goes to absolute extremes of a perfectly good environment (part of the original question is why not skip straight to this stage and avoid evil altogether?) or a perfectly evil environment. Sudan is around 70% muslim and 5% christian so chances are a Sudanese that starves to death will be roasting for eternity according to Christian dogma. The point I think is not whether that is what happened to the child in the photo but that it is claimed to happen to anyone who dies a non-believer in Jesus. Not exactly an end to suffering to put it mildly. Secondly even in the cases that we assume the poor suffering soul goes to heaven to say their suffering didn't really matter because they get heaven everlasting is not an explanation for the evil, it's just a band aid that says "don't worry about it, all is well now". We are still left believing that there is an all powerful god standing over this exhausted and abandoned dying little girl who watches while the vulture tentatively approaches, takes a peck, then with a little more boldness climbs atop and begins his meal. The child too weak to put up a defense can only lay there and endure until the end. And all through it this god stands there watching, fully capable of ending the suffering in any number of imaginable ways, but for some reason choosing to do nothing. Can what happens to the child after death possibly be justification for that? If we should accept the notion that evil in this life is pointless because it is the next life that really counts and all will be made right the question of Epicurus still remains unanswered, why the evil in this life?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

> Sudan is around 70% muslim and 5% christian so chances are a Sudanese that starves to death will be roasting for eternity according to Christian dogma.



If they claim to follow Islam...you are correct.  That little girl did not/could not follow any religion simply because she is too young to have any understanding or accountability IMO.



> The point I think is not whether that is what happened to the child in the photo but that it is claimed to happen to anyone who dies a non-believer in Jesus



Again....correct...assuming accountability.



> Secondly even in the cases that we assume the poor suffering soul goes to heaven to say their suffering didn't really matter because they get heaven everlasting is not an explanation for the evil, it's just a band aid that says "don't worry about it, all is well now".



I hope you didn't hear me say that their suffering in this life doesn't matter.  It absolutely does.  It's heartbreaking and, quite honestly, that picture has been haunting me all week.  I am ashamed of my selfishness.

Her suffering will end, however, at physical death.  You did here me say that and, in comparison with eternity, it is a blip in her existence.  But it does matter.



> And all through it this god stands there watching, fully capable of ending the suffering in any number of imaginable ways, but for some reason choosing to do nothing.



Sort of like he did when his own son was hanging on a cross...right?

Unimaginable, at the time, that a loving God would stand by watching as people drove nails through his son's hands and left him to suffer unimaginable pain.  No one there could understand why God would allow that.

I'm not saying that this little girl is the savior of the world.  The point I'm trying to make is the classic "Christian cop-out"...we don't know why God stands by sometimes and "does nothing".  But he is good.  You cannot be a believer and not believe that God is good and that he is in control.  I'm sure you see that as mindlessly brainwashed sheep.  I hope not.  But you probably do.



> Can what happens to the child after death possibly be justification for that?



Justification?  No.  Otherwise we would all suffer like that in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.  Comfort for the suffering?  Yes.



> why the evil in this life?



Because God allowed for the possibility of evil in the beginning in order to have a creation that willingly loved and followed him.  Humanity brought evil into this world.  God did not.

BTW...I'm aware that none of what I just posted is going to resonate.  I'm ok with that.


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Sort of like he did when his own son was hanging on a cross...right?
> 
> Unimaginable, at the time, that a loving God would stand by watching as people drove nails through his son's hands and left him to suffer unimaginable pain.  No one there could understand why God would allow that.
> 
> I'm not saying that this little girl is the savior of the world.  The point I'm trying to make is the classic "Christian cop-out"...we don't know why God stands by sometimes and "does nothing".  But he is good.  You cannot be a believer and not believe that God is good and that he is in control.  I'm sure you see that as mindlessly brainwashed sheep.  I hope not.  But you probably do.



Did God stand by not knowing that was going to happen to his son, or did he send his son for exactly that purpose knowing full well what was going to happen? 
As far as Jesus, the little girl and God are concerned......it was supposed to happen if we are to believe the way God operates.


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

As I said....I'm not comparing the purposes between Christ and that little girl.  Just making the point that there is a purpose.  Sometimes we don't know what it or, nor can we fathom what it could be.

I put forth a "possibility" in previous posts.  What if that picture of that girl inspires someone to "solve the problem" (whatever that is) for that entire nation?  Was it worth God standing by silently and allowing it?

Like I said...the classic Christian cop-out, right?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> As I said....I'm not comparing the purposes between Christ and that little girl.  Just making the point that there is a purpose.  Sometimes we don't know what it or, nor can we fathom what it could be.
> 
> I put forth a "possibility" in previous posts.  What if that picture of that girl inspires someone to "solve the problem" (whatever that is) for that entire nation?  Was it worth God standing by silently and allowing it?
> 
> Like I said...the classic Christian cop-out, right?



Would you stand by if your child fell off the swing set at the park and was crying in agony just to inspire another parent to step up? Loving and caring has no boundary or limits. Excuses for invisible beings  do have limits. Praise for the good things, excuses for the bad. Why not hold the same accountability for each?


----------



## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

You're right.  He's either good all the time or he's not.  I don't make excuses for the bad.  But, you understand that God does not cause all things to happen, right?

No, I would not stand by if my child fell off the swing set.  But I wouldn't send her to die for the sins of others either.  I do not have perfect love.

If all children in the world were yours and millions were saved because one died....would you allow it?  You can read that in the context of Jesus or the little girl...it matters not which.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You're right.  He's either good all the time or he's not.  I don't make excuses for the bad.  But, you understand that God does not cause all things to happen, right?
> 
> No, I would not stand by if my child fell off the swing set.  But I wouldn't send her to die for the sins of others either.  I do not have perfect love.
> 
> If all children in the world were yours and millions were saved because one died....would you allow it?  You can read that in the context of Jesus or the little girl...it matters not which.



I understand that God does not cause all things to happen, but for a different reason than you do.

Perfect love? I don't buy into that. Creating a son to sacrifice is the ONLY explanation that ties Jesus to God when a God of that power could have fixed it all ANY other way and much simpler.

If I had the power you say a God does one would not have to die for any others to be saved.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2011)

> If I had the power you say a God does one would not have to die for any others to be saved.



Perhaps you should apply for the position...since you seem to think there's an opening.


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## stringmusic (Oct 12, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I understand that God does not cause all things to happen, but for a different reason than you do.
> 
> Perfect love? I don't buy into that. Creating a son to sacrifice is the ONLY explanation that ties Jesus to God when a God of that power could have *fixed it all ANY other way *and much simpler.
> 
> If I had the power you say a God does one would not have to die for any others to be saved.



God sent His Son to die on a cross and you don't believe, what makes you think He should have gone the "simple" route? I think that would give you less a chance to believe.

Just curious, what other ways do you think God should have made an obvious sacrifice and show of grace? Killing a squirrel,deer or moose. Making a delicious peanut butter and jelly sandwhich? 

If God split the sky right now, peaked into your window at your house and said "I am God bullethead, and I am real" what do you think you would do? One week later would you believe what you seen or chalk it up to something the cook put on your burger at lunch that day?


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Perhaps you should apply for the position...since you seem to think there's an opening.



You gave me the hypothetical question, all I did was answer it.


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## bullethead (Oct 12, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> God sent His Son to die on a cross and you don't believe, what makes you think He should have gone the "simple" route? I think that would give you less a chance to believe.
> 
> Just curious, what other ways do you think God should have made an obvious sacrifice and show of grace? Killing a squirrel,deer or moose. Making a delicious peanut butter and jelly sandwhich?
> 
> If God split the sky right now, peaked into your window at your house and said "I am God bullethead, and I am real" what do you think you would do? One week later would you believe what you seen or chalk it up to something the cook put on your burger at lunch that day?



First of all WHY would he need to show us anything? He could have....in the blink of an eye....put everything the way he wanted it. Free Will be darned. He could have done it when he wiped out all creation with the flood and he could have done it right from the beginning. He did not because he cannot. All of his things are perfect in every way except his greatest creation...the one modeled after him. Why? Because he is man's creation. He was created in one small teeny part of the world( just like the thousand gods made by humans everywhere) and he no more is responsible for anything as any of the others are. For the reasons you dismiss those other gods I dismiss your god.

There was a time when I was all ears for anything he had to tell me and I heard nothing. I would LOVE to hear from him. I would be honest and tell you all about it. Now we each have something to look forward to. I'll let you know if he looks like Morgan Freeman.


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## awr72 (Oct 12, 2011)

strange to me hearing a debate of a starving child with all of us having a cozy home nice game animals in our pics we dont kill to survive just trophys and a good hunt and plenty of money .and food to add at what point do you think your not blessed,and at what point do you become a blessing what have you done other than tithe a church?can you imagine that girls family seeing that fat turkey in your pic?or deer?


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> First of all WHY would he need to show us anything?


Because He loves us.




> He could have....in the blink of an eye....put everything the way he wanted it.


He did




> Free Will be darned.


He should have made us all robots? God does not force Himself on us. Love cannot exist if the one(us) who is offered the love does not have a choice in the matter.





> He could have done it when he wiped out all creation with the flood and he could have done it right from the beginning. He did not because he cannot. All of his things are perfect in every way except his greatest creation...the one modeled after him. Why? Because he is man's creation. He was created in one small teeny part of the world( just like the thousand gods made by humans everywhere) and he no more is responsible for anything as any of the others are. For the reasons you dismiss those other gods I dismiss your god.



3 different continents is not what I would call a "small teeny part of the world". Yep, the writings that make up the bible where found on 3 different continents.




> There was a time when I was all ears for anything he had to tell me and I heard nothing. I would LOVE to hear from him. I would be honest and tell you all about it. Now we each have something to look forward to. I'll let you know if he looks like Morgan Freeman.



How long did you give Him? 5 mins, 1 day, 10 years? What if you didn't wait to hear from Him long enough? Did you read the bible and pray diligently every day for God to reveal Himself to you with a truely humble and repentive heart?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 13, 2011)

> can you imagine that girls family seeing that fat turkey in your pic?or deer?



I suppose you haven't read the thread, huh?

I said repeatedly that the picture of that girl has haunted me since I saw it...still does...and that I am ashamed that I have not done more to help those who truly suffer...and that I'm ashamed that I complained about how "hard" my life is right now the other day.

BTW....my kills are not just trophies.


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## JB0704 (Oct 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I suppose you haven't read the thread, huh?


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Because He loves us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You won't be capable of sinning in Heaven so you will be like a robot there.  Why not just start out that way?


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


>


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You won't be capable of sinning in Heaven so you will be like a robot there.  Why not just start out that way?



I think everyone will have a choice in heaven as well, it's not prison.


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think everyone will have a choice in heaven as well, it's not prison.




There's sinning in Heaven?  That's a game changer.


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> There's sinning in Heaven?  That's a game changer.



There is the choice.


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> There is the choice.



But it doesn't happen because........?


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> But it doesn't happen because........?



I don't know that it doesn't happen, however, I don't think most people who are there want to leave.

I'll be honest, I have thought about this before and I don't have a great answer. I should probably read up on it some.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know that it doesn't happen, however, I don't think most people who are there want to leave.
> 
> I'll be honest, I have thought about this before and I don't have a great answer. I should probably read up on it some.




The question has come up before:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600403


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## Huntinfool (Oct 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


>




Oh, pipe down you!  I'm already in enough hot water.


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## JB0704 (Oct 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Oh, pipe down you!  I'm already in enough hot water.





......I couldn't resitst......


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> The question has come up before:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600403



Ah, yes.  I remember that one well.  That was a good one.  The most definitive answers were:

-Limited Free Will
-I don't know
-We won't be that same (Re-programmed)

In the end, the sucker got derailed.  Turns out this is one of those "I don't know the answer and I don't need for it to make sense.  I trust God." questions.  sigh.......


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ......I couldn't resitst......



You weren't around for this one JB.  I sure would like to hear your thoughts on it.  It's good read.



centerpin fan said:


> The question has come up before:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=600403


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## JB0704 (Oct 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You weren't around for this one JB.  I sure would like to hear your thoughts on it.  It's good read.



I will look through it.  My thoughts tend to stray from the typical, so I will probably end up arguing against both sides.

Not sure what the entire thread is about, but I am a free-will guy (no predestination) and am very confused on the concept of heaven (sounds odd to a country boy like me....no huntin' no fishin' just singing) and he11 (Christianity as a whole is torn on this concept, whether it is universally applied, is it fire, etc).

Will flip through and get back on it........


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## Huntinfool (Oct 13, 2011)

> no predestination



Maybe for another thread.  But as in, not at all...or just not the common understanding of what that term means?


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## JB0704 (Oct 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Maybe for another thread.  But as in, not at all...or just not the common understanding of what that term means?



I think common understanding, let's not derail this one today......

....I'll pick a fight with you some other time (considering starting my Church thread soon, but waiting till I get good and bored)


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## Huntinfool (Oct 13, 2011)

Not picking a fight.  Just curious about what you meant there.  Predestination, as a concept, is pretty clear biblically. 

What the heck predestination is and means...I'll be honest, way beyond my ability to comprehend.  I don't think anybody actually knows and can explain it well...at least not that I've heard yet.


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## JB0704 (Oct 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Predestination, as a concept, is pretty clear biblically.


 
Not going there today, HF.

As to the quesiton about free-will, problem of evil, heaven, etc.:

The only reason I believe in heaven is that I believe in Jesus, and he mentioned it.  Otherwise, I would not buy it as a concept.  So, this is an area that I am really challenged in.

But, I would think that heaven, as part of creation, is also governed by the rules of creation.  Free will exists as a necessity to the purpose of creation.  Evil, is a natural opposite of good.  If there was no evil, would there be good?  I would assume the same rules applied in heaven.  What good is it for billions of souls to do what they had to do if God gets glory in the choice?

Again, there are a lot of contradictory thoughts on heaven, honestly, I am not so sure what I think about it.  I have not done a detailed study on it.


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## bullethead (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Because He loves us.







stringmusic said:


> He did



Those answers work for you, not for me.





stringmusic said:


> He should have made us all robots? God does not force Himself on us. Love cannot exist if the one(us) who is offered the love does not have a choice in the matter.


No need for Robots. Undeniable proof of his existence and his accomplishments =yes. He was pretty regular with stepping in on mankind for a few thousand years but lately nothing. I am sure he knows in todays world humans require a little more proof. Part the sky, tell everyone who he is and how it all went down, and we'll see how it goes from there.






stringmusic said:


> 3 different continents is not what I would call a "small teeny part of the world". Yep, the writings that make up the bible where found on 3 different continents.


Yes, 3. Over 1500years!
Where was the beginning written? Where did it all start? Where are all the places and people in Europe that had direct dealing with God mentioned in the Bible.
Who cares where it was written....where did these happenings take place?
If someone writes about the American Revolution 1500 years after it happened and they live in Thailand when writing it....did it also take place in Thailand? 







stringmusic said:


> How long did you give Him? 5 mins, 1 day, 10 years? What if you didn't wait to hear from Him long enough? Did you read the bible and pray diligently every day for God to reveal Himself to you with a truely humble and repentive heart?


String, I like you, but you are somewhat delusional at times. No matter what I tell you here, because I never got what you get out of it, you will tell me I did not do it right. I say this...you say I should have done that. I say that...you say I should have done this, that and don't forget the other thing.
What ifs........give me a break.


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## bullethead (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know that it doesn't happen, however, I don't think most people who are there want to leave.
> 
> I'll be honest, I have thought about this before and I don't have a great answer. I should probably read up on it some.



Yeah definitely read up on it. I am having a hard time finding even one author that that knows the rules of heaven. All I can find is ones that have never been there, never talked to anyone who has been there but give their opinions of what it MUST be like based on the thoughts in their own minds.

(Now is the time to break out some quotes from the 4yr old pastors kid that talks of rainbow colored unicorns prancing all around heaven)


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> No need for Robots. Undeniable proof of his existence and his accomplishments =yes. He was pretty regular with stepping in on mankind for a few thousand years but lately nothing. I am sure he knows in todays world humans require a little more proof. *Part the sky*, tell everyone who he is and how it all went down, and we'll see how it goes from there.


Nah, you would say it had something to do with the world evolving a week after it happened. If parting the sky is what if took for you or anyone else to believe, you just don't _want_ to believe. That is my opinion.




> Yes, 3. Over 1500years!
> Where was the beginning written? Where did it all start? Where are all the places and people in Europe that had direct dealing with God mentioned in the Bible.
> *Who cares where it was written*....where did these happenings take place?


Obviously you do, you just tried to use it as evidence that the bible is not true or reliable.You said the bible was written in a small place, I merely pointed out the fact that it wasn't.



> If someone writes about the American Revolution 1500 years after it happened and they live in Thailand when writing it....did it also take place in Thailand?


Over a span of 1500 years, not 1500 years later. To answer the question, no. 








> String, I like you, but you are somewhat delusional at times. No matter what I tell you here, because I never got what you get out of it, you will tell me I did not do it right. I say this...you say I should have done that. I say that...you say I should have done this, that and don't forget the other thing.
> What ifs........give me a break.



Yes, I am delusional at times 
I didn't say you should do anything, I asked a couple of questions. 

I don't think there is necessarily a formula for asking Jesus to be your personal saviour. I think sincerity of the heart is a big key, and I know that you will tell me that you were of the utmost sincerity when you believed, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe if your were sincere, you wouldn't be where you are at spiritualy now. That is not a shot at you, I hope you know that.


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Yeah definitely read up on it. I am having a hard time finding even one author that that *knows the rules of heaven*. All I can find is ones that have never been there, never talked to anyone who has been there but give their opinions of what it MUST be like based on the thoughts in their own minds.
> 
> (Now is the time to break out some quotes from the 4yr old pastors kid that talks of rainbow colored unicorns prancing all around heaven)



... because nobody does, at least not 100%


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## bullethead (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> ... because nobody does, at least not 100%



Right, so what are you going to read up on?


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Right, so what are you going to read up on?



Whoever I think knows at least 99%


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Nah, you would say it had something to do with the world evolving a week after it happened. If parting the sky is what if took for you or anyone else to believe, you just don't _want_ to believe. That is my opinion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I might settle for a voice in my head.


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## bullethead (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Nah, you would say it had something to do with the world evolving a week after it happened. If parting the sky is what if took for you or anyone else to believe, you just don't _want_ to believe. That is my opinion.


I told you before I'd be honest if I ever talk to God.
I also told you before that no answer I give you is good enough.





stringmusic said:


> Obviously you do, you just tried to use it as evidence that the bible is not true or reliable.You said the bible was written in a small place, I merely pointed out the fact that it wasn't.


Oh boy......the bible's writings, what is written in the bible, is about one small place in the entire world. Even if it is 1500-2000 square miles(Egypt to Israel to Rome etc...) it is small. They had no idea that the world was any bigger than what they knew of around them. Within those writings there is no mention of any God doing things outside of that "world" they knew.




stringmusic said:


> Over a span of 1500 years, not 1500 years later. To answer the question, no.


Again yes your right about time span total but when the King of England called for a total re-write of the Bible it was done those years later.
Which part of the bible was written at the earliest stages? And what area of the world did it talk about? The OT and NT differ greatly when they were written. The OT was around for hundreds of years before the NT and only after hundreds of more years were the two combined for Christianity.
There was a bible that was followed by the Jews long before the Christian bible. Was it written in Europe?









stringmusic said:


> Yes, I am delusional at times
> I didn't say you should do anything, I asked a couple of questions.
> 
> I don't think there is necessarily a formula for asking Jesus to be your personal saviour. I think sincerity of the heart is a big key, and I know that you will tell me that you were of the utmost sincerity when you believed, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe if your were sincere, you wouldn't be where you are at spiritualy now. That is not a shot at you, I hope you know that.



You cannot fathom that a person did not "get" out of a belief in Jesus what you have gotten. The ONLY explanation that you can understand in your mind is that somehow they did not do it right. That is the only answer you can come up with that makes sense to you, I understand that, because anything else would mean what you believe to be true is wrong. You have to tell yourself that the other person screwed up, wasn't sincere enough, didn't wait long enough or should have worn corduroy pants with golf shoes while sitting on a hemlock stump....make up an excuse for why it didn't work... make up anything but the truth.


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## bullethead (Oct 13, 2011)

There was a 400 year "gap" between the OT and NT writings. A time when it was said God did not talk to prophets. Then all of a sudden God starts talking again to announce his Son and tell all about him (40-100 years after it all took place) but most who lived during it did not believe it and only until hundreds of years passed by when the generations who were there died off did the new religion take off. Talented writers.


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## stringmusic (Oct 13, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I *might* settle for a voice in my head.



"mights" grow on a chickens hinny.


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> "mights" grow on a chickens hinny.




I would consider rational explanations first.  You should too.


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