# Need a est. price on gun



## bubbafowler (Aug 26, 2008)

I was over at my grandmother-in-law's house yesterday, and she had a pistol that was her fathers when she was a little girl.  It is an Essex Gun Works 410-12m/m choke pistol that has an 8 inch barrel and shoots a 2 1/2 inch shell.  This gun is in very good shape, and looks and shoots great.  I know that "Essex Gun Works" was a trade name used by the Crescent-Davis Firearms Company on shotguns made for the Belknap Hardware Company in Louisville, Ky. , but my question is still, how much is this worth.  She is not interested in selling, just curious, so a good estimated guess is good enough for us!! Thanks.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Aug 26, 2008)

might want to look up any legality issues with such gun, being as it is a shotgun with a barrel shorter than the minimum 18" length.  It seems as you need some paperwork documenting its registration with the ATF.

good condition is around $500 with excellent being up to $1000.


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## homey (Aug 26, 2008)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> might want to look up any legality issues with such gun, being as it is a shotgun with a barrel shorter than the minimum 18" length.  It seems as you need some paperwork documenting its registration with the ATF.
> 
> good condition is around $500 with excellent being up to $1000.



The man said it was a pistol.What's the difference with it than a Taurus "judge"?


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## Twenty five ought six (Aug 26, 2008)

> What's the difference with it than a Taurus "judge"?



The Taurus Judge had a rifled barrel, which takes it out of the catergory of "short barreled shotgun".

These old shot pistols pop up every now and then, and it is a serious federal crime to be in possession of one.   I doubt that BATF is going to bust Grandma, but you should be aware of the consequences of simply possessing it.


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## stevetarget (Aug 26, 2008)

if its black powder then no problem with the FED's (BATF) local law can vary. If not black powder it might fall under the AOW group.


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## Rich Kaminski (Aug 31, 2008)

*It's Grandfathered in as legal!*

Just my 2 cents.


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## polaris30144 (Sep 16, 2008)

Rich Kaminski said:


> Just my 2 cents.



No it isn't. It has to be registered whether it was just found or was always owned before the law changed. They had an amnesty period to register, but that has long since expired. If it is a black powder, then it isn't an AOW and isn't required to be registered. Ask a C&R or FFL that you trust. They probably will know how to get the correct answer. They didn't grandfather Thompsons or other weapons, they all had to be registered or destroyed.

Sometimes the$0.02 can lead to ten years.


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## Lloyd72 (Sep 18, 2008)

hmmm I dont know about Georgia but I do know that in Mississippi a shot gun in .410 or smaller can have any length barrel


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 18, 2008)

Folks:

This is not a new question.  Several companies made this little pistol/shotguns, including Stevens.  They usually show up under the very circumstances here, someone finds one in Grandpa's dresser or such.

The National Firearms Act makes possession of a short barreled, unregistered shotgun *illegal*.  These guns are short barreled shotguns.  It's that simple.  BATF takes this provision of the law very seriously.

Don't you wonder why you've never seen one at a gun show or in a gun shop?

If you want to jeopardize your right to own _any_ gun _forever_, keep messing around with this gun.

To answer the original question, there is no legal way to sell this gun in operating condition. Zero, zip, nada.  So the legal market value is $0.  It would have the same legal market value as a kilo of cocaine.  If you render it permanently inoperable, it might have some minimal value as a decorative piece.


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## bwarren2 (Sep 18, 2008)

Could he register it, then it would have value?


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## VHinch (Sep 18, 2008)

bwarren2 said:


> Could he register it, then it would have value?



No.  As previously stated there was an amnesty period offered several years ago where NFA items could be registered, but it is long since gone and all indications are that there will not ever be another one.  Legally, it must be destroyed, or rendered permanently inoperable as defined by the ATF.


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## polaris30144 (Sep 21, 2008)

Lloyd72 said:


> hmmm I dont know about Georgia but I do know that in Mississippi a shot gun in .410 or smaller can have any length barrel



Unless Mississippi is a country unto themselves, which I believe it is not, Federal law trumps any law that you think you know locally. You don't know what you stated as law is actually a law,you are just repeating what you have heard or been told over the years. It doesn't make a hill of beans about what state you are in if you violate a federal law. Federal law states the gun is illegal to own or posses unless it is permanently made inoperable or destroyed.  (If you can't impress them with knowledge, baffle them with baloney.)


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## TurkeyProof (Sep 21, 2008)

*found this on the net..*

In the United States, due to the National Firearms Act, it is illegal for a private citizen to possess a sawed-off modern smokeless powder shotgun (a barrel length less than 18 in. or 46 cm and an overall length less than 26 inches) without a tax-stamped permit from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives, which requires an extensive background check and a $200.00 fee for every transfer.[1] (Short-barreled blackpowder shotguns, in contrast, are not illegal, by federal law, and require no tax-stamped permit, although they may be illegal under state law.) A new tax stamp must be purchased with every transfer of a modern smokeless powder short-barrelled shotgun, and transfers must be made through a Class III Federal Firearms Licensed (FFL) dealer.[2]

Additional restrictions may apply in many other jurisdictions. State and local laws may entirely prohibit civilian possession of short-barrelled shotguns. (These restrictions do not apply to military and police departments.) In most states, a shotgun less than a certain length is legally classed as a handgun, and requires a handgun licence (which is much more difficult to obtain than a basic shotgun license), plus a registration. The act of sawing off the gun would, in these jurisdictions, constitute unlawful manufacture of a handgun.

In addition, some firearm types that would normally be considered to fall into the Short Barrel Shotgun (SBS) category are not legally considered to be a SBS. A shotgun is legally defined as a shoulder mounted firearm that fires shot. Shotguns and shotgun receivers that have never had a buttstock of any type installed are not shotguns, as they cannot be shoulder mounted. Therefore, cutting one of these below the 18" barrel and/or 26" overall length cannot produce a SBS as the firearm was never a shotgun. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives recognizes these firearms as being a smooth bore handgun which is an Any Other Weapon (AOW). Unlike a SBS, an AOW only carries a $5.00 tax and can be moved interstate without Federal approval. However, to maintain its AOW status, one may generally not have a buttstock (making it a SBS) or a rifled slug barrel (making it a Destructive Device (DD); a handgun with a bore over 0.5"). Both SBS and DD weapons require a $200.00 transfer tax and prior Federal approval to transport interstate.


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## Lloyd72 (Sep 22, 2008)

like I said the man stated it was a pistol so i was correct in saying that as long as it is no larger than .410 as he stated it was than it was perfectly legal


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## deerslayer42 (Sep 22, 2008)

Lots of *certain* opinions here. I am certain of this.  .410 pistols are still made and still for sale if you want one.  They are not very common but you can find them at gun dealers and gun shows.  I think the last one I saw for sale was made by Herritage and the people that licensed the Derringer name made a double barrel model a few years ago but I'm not sure if it is still in production.  My guess is they are legal; don't think too many dealers would jeopardize their FFL for a $200 dollar gun.


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 23, 2008)

> My guess is they are legal; don't think too many dealers would jeopardize their FFL for a $200 dollar gun.



So I'm curious.  Are you advising other members to commit a federal felony based on what you are guessing is legal, the guess itself being based on something that you casually observed on a dealer's table at a gunshow?  

First, if you will actually read the posts above, none of the people who actually know what they are talking about ever said that there was any prohibition on a .410 pistol.  Thompson Center took this very issue (more of less) all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States. The current marketing of the Taurus "The Judge" also shows that a .410 pistol can be sold.  Both of these guns have rifled barrels.

Secondly, if you had actually picked one of the derringers up (and they are currently being manufactured) and closely examined it, you would have noticed that it too had a rifled barrel.

Here is the ATF ruling from 1969 on the Contender:



> Information available to this office discloses that the Thompson/Center
> Contender  is manufactured in various pistol and revolver calibers such
> as .22LR, .22WMR, .22 Hornet, .22 Rem-Jet, .38 Special, .357 Magnum, .256
> Winchester Magnum and possibly more.  The caliber of the gun cane be
> ...



Here is an excerpt from a 1994 letter from BATF, which describes the H&R "Handyman", which is a .410 pistol similar to the one under discussion.



> As you observed, one of the reasons for denying your rerquest was ATF s
> conclusion that the H & R Handygun is similar in design and function to
> the sawed-off shotgun, a popular crime weapon that has been the subject
> of numerous Federal and State prosecutions.  You contend that this
> ...



So I'll make the point again, America is a great place, so you can make your own decision about whether or not to commit a federal felony base based on someone's guess about something they think they saw at a gunshow


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## EMC-GUN (Sep 23, 2008)

If it's rifled it's a pistol in the same vein as the Judge by Taurus. If it's smoothbore it's a short barreled shotgun and WILL get you in trouble. Years back I was in a gun store in Ms and a man walked in and had a wrapped up towel in his hand. He asked if the store still dealt with Class3 weapons and the manager said "no we don't". Well while he was asking the question he was opening the towel to reveal a nice little submachine gun. He needed some work done on it. The manager told him to wrap it back up and leave the store and to never return with that gun. It is that serious.


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## Trizey (Sep 23, 2008)

Could he not have the barrel rifled?


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Sep 23, 2008)

rifling a shotgun barrel?  not sure if thats even possible.  seems the steel would be way too thin to cut any kind of rifling into it.  not to mention the age of this firearm means I would not go into any extensive modification.

IMO, what should be done is what looks like the original poster has done... fade away and go about his business.  I have no problems with a man keeping an heirloom firearm and I think its ridiculous that the FED would outlaw such a firearm which is the furthest thing from an assault weapon that I can possibly think of.  If I were him I'd delete this thread and "lose" this firearm.


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## deerslayer42 (Sep 23, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> So I'm curious.  Are you advising other members to commit a federal felony based on what you are guessing is legal, the guess itself being based on something that you casually observed on a dealer's table at a gunshow?
> 
> First, if you will actually read the posts above, none of the people who actually know what they are talking about ever said that there was any prohibition on a .410 pistol.  Thompson Center took this very issue (more of less) all the way to the Supreme Court of the United States. The current marketing of the Taurus "The Judge" also shows that a .410 pistol can be sold.  Both of these guns have rifled barrels.



Sorry 25-06 I did not realize I was commenting on the opinion of such an expert legal mind.  

First, I did read the entire discussion and I am still unconvinced that your opinion is the final word on the Federal Code Annotated.  Second, I do actually know what I was talking about and I stand by my statement that .410 pistols are legal and for sale today, legally.  Third, the cases you quote are not the only case law on this subject and if the Bubba were so inclined I believe he would not have too much trouble finding a real lawyer who could cite other credible precedence and case law  that would show his relative's antique weapon to have been manufactured as a pistol and not a shoulder mounted shotgun.  Forth, chill out, Bubba is not Randy Weaver and you are not J. Edgar Hoover.


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 24, 2008)

> Third, the cases you quote are not the only case law on this subject



Really.  

Give me the citations on the other ones, and I'll look at them.  Especially the one that says an unregistered gun like the one described can be sold.


BATF has definitively ruled on this issue, and if you want to keep jaw jacking to the contrary, have at it.


Yours in the faith, waiting on those cases.


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## KDarsey (Sep 24, 2008)

Poor Grandma...
...and all he wanted to know was the worth of it............
.....poor Grandma....


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## deerslayer42 (Sep 24, 2008)

*really?*

Yes really. As I said, a lawyer could cite the case law and precedence.  I am not a lawyer, maybe you are; but I am really not interested enough in arguing with you to spend hours researching it for you.  You seem convinced you know it all and that the BATF is infallible.  I am happy to leave you in the same condition I found you.

Kdarcy is right.  Bubba, I am sorry I was part of hijacking your thread.


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 24, 2008)

> but I am really not interested enough in arguing with you to spend hours researching it for you.



Then you shouldn't jump in here and opine on something that could result in someone spending several years in a federal penitentiary, and losing the right for the rest of their life the right to possess a firearm.

There's a big difference in expressing an opinion on "what is the best caliber for ......"  and "what will get me busted by BATF".  

You said there were other cases, you've been called on that, let's see them.  If you were just B.S.ing, man up and admit it.

As for "spend[ing] hours researching it for you", some of us don't find it such a burden to spend the time and do the necessary research, so that we can speak from what we learned, and not what we thought we learned from walking by some dealer's stand at a third rate gun show.

I'm still waiting on the citations for those cases to which you referred.  Is there a possibility they don't exist?  I mean you said they were there, so how could it take hours of research to locate something that  you know exists?

BTW, legal genius, being manufactured as a "shoulder mounted firearm " is totally irrelevant to this discussion, but of course your perusal of dealer booths already told you that, right?


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## deerslayer42 (Sep 24, 2008)

Find another horse to beat man. Is your real name Janet Reno?


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 24, 2008)

> Is your real name Janet Reno?



No.

And I'm not giving advice that can land some of the other posters here in the federal penitentiary.

You said you had other information, you've been asked to provide it, you've been shown to be a **** artist.

The prudent and decent thing to do now is slink away, and not resort to name calling of some of the folks here that actually know what they are talking about, and thereby continuing to expose your ignorance of the subject under discussion.

I'm still waiting for those cases.


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## deerslayer42 (Sep 25, 2008)

Blah, blah, blah.  Every time you type you confirm other points I have made and raise new ones that I have not bitten on.  

Just for clarification though: I never gave any advice that would get anyone locked up.  All I said was that .410 pistols are legal; and they are. You will find them at established gun stores, not only at gun shows. I also offered a counterpoint to your interpretation of the law.  No matter how you huff and puff both side could be argued in a real court of law.

That's it, I'm done.  You are the KING of this forum and let no man challenge you.  As I said, I am happy to leave you as I found you.

Sorry again Bubba.


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## Twenty five ought six (Sep 25, 2008)

> Blah, blah, blah. Every time you type you confirm other points I have made and raise new ones that I have not bitten on.





> Third, the cases you quote are not the only case law on this subject



I'm still waiting on those cases.  You shouldn't let your mouth write checks your backside can't cash.


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## Mwaldrop (Sep 25, 2008)

do what you want with it, seems you are already a horrible horrible person for not melting it and turning yourself in!!! like they said poor granny. 

really who's gonna find out? only way you'll get in trouble is if you go out with  it on ur hip. other than that nobody would ever knowu have it.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Sep 25, 2008)

nobody said he should destroy it or turn it in.  we just said whatever you do, be careful with it because it is definitely considered a banned weapon.


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## polaris30144 (Sep 25, 2008)

Look the gun up in the Blue Book of gun values. It states it is subject to confiscation if not registered by the BATF. It can not be registered now if it wasn't during the amnesty period.


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## polaris30144 (Sep 25, 2008)

Mwaldrop said:


> do what you want with it, seems you are already a horrible horrible person for not melting it and turning yourself in!!! like they said poor granny.
> 
> really who's gonna find out? only way you'll get in trouble is if you go out with  it on ur hip. other than that nobody would ever knowu have it.



Or you go posting on the internet.........


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