# Please pray with me.



## HawgJawl

I’m repeatedly told that I just need to ask God for the answers I seek.  After much consideration, I agree.  I will humbly pray and earnestly seek answers from God.

The problem is that I have prayed most of my life and have received answers from God or I have created the answers myself, in my own mind.  I can’t tell the difference.  There are numerous examples throughout history of people who believed they were following orders from God and being led in directions contrary to the teachings of Jesus.  That is why I am asking you to do this with me.

We see daily on this forum many variations of interpretations of complicated concepts, so for the sake of simplicity, let’s stick with questions that can be answered with “yes” or “no”.  Please pray with me and ask God to reveal the correct answer to you and post the answer you receive on this thread.  If you did not receive and answer or are not certain if you received an answer, please post that as well.  

I am approaching this honestly and sincerely and I ask the same from you.  I am publically professing my faith that God will provide His answer.

James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16:12-14
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

Hebrews 10:15-16
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Matthew 21:22
And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

John 14:12-14
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Mark 11:23-24
For verily I say unto you, That whatsoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.

Matthew 7:7, 8, & 11 states ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.  If ye then, being evil, know how to give gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?  

Mark 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.


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## HawgJawl

Let’s spend the day getting our hearts right with God.  Let’s strengthen our faith that our Lord will deliver.  This evening, let’s find a quiet place to commune with our Father.


Recite the Lord’s Prayer, and then ask;

Did modern animals evolve from lower forms of life?


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## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> Let’s spend the day getting our hearts right with God.  Let’s strengthen our faith that our Lord will deliver.  This evening, let’s find a quiet place to commune with our Father.
> 
> 
> Recite the Lord’s Prayer, and then ask;
> 
> Did modern animals evolve from lower forms of life?



A friend of mine has left his family behind and gone to work in North Dakota so he can make enough money to save his families farm.

Another friend of mine just found out this week that his wife has brain and lung cancer.

A man I have known for a long time is suffering from Parkinson's disease and lost his wife of over 50 years last year.

I have traveled all around from church to church trying to find a place I can raise my youngest daughter in ..a place that I won't be a hindrance to.

But let me take the whole day..repenting and getting things out of the way from me and God...just so I can ask the Almighty God if  modern animals evolved from lower life forms! 
 This kind of --unbelief-- is why I seldom participate in the AAA forum. Their ignorance of God is like explaining Bacnet control systems to a neanderthal.


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## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> A friend of mine has left his family behind and gone to work in North Dakota so he can make enough money to save his families farm.
> 
> Another friend of mine just found out this week that his wife has brain and lung cancer.
> 
> A man I have known for a long time is suffering from Parkinson's disease and lost his wife of over 50 years last year.
> 
> I have traveled all around from church to church trying to find a place I can raise my youngest daughter in ..a place that I won't be a hindrance to.
> 
> But let me take the whole day..repenting and getting things out of the way from me and God...just so I can ask the Almighty God if  modern animals evolved from lower life forms!
> This kind of --unbelief-- is why I seldom participate in the AAA forum. Their ignorance of God is like explaining Bacnet control systems to a neanderthal.



I'm sorry to hear about your friends and the problems you are currently facing.  I honestly did not anticipate that question offending anyone.  Some Christians believe all animals were created in their current form in the beginning and other Christians believe God used evolution to develop what we have today.

I thought that would be a simple question to ask with a clear answer of either yes or no, as opposed to a full page answer of personal interpretation of what God is leading a person to believe.

I'm sorry if that question offended you.  It was not my intent.


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## HawgJawl

I have been praying for the anwer but so far I cannot honestly say that I have recieved an answer from God.  I obviously have my own personal opinions but have not yet felt any influence from God in either direction.

I do not draw any conclusions from the fact that I have not received the answer.  I have faith that if enough believers ask God for the answer, a few will receive it.

I hope that others have joined me in this and am anxious to hear if anyone else has received the answer from God.


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## gordon 2

I wonder if neanderthal was atheist? Just a yes or no please. And of course no offense intended--just a strait up question.  And it's a simple question, requiring just a yes or no answer? No full page answers please or personal interpretations. Thanks.


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## HawgJawl

I'm going to continue to pray for an answer and maintain my faith that God will answer.  I hope that others will support me in this.

Many Christians on this forum have at one time or another told me to ask God for the answer to my questions.  Many Christians on this forum report that they talk with God daily.  For those of you who talk to God and have recommended that I do the same, please allow me to lay this on your heart;  Did God lead you to make that recommendation to me?


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## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I do not draw any conclusions from the fact that I have not received the answer.


 My brain just locked up.


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## Denton

Hawg should I send you a doctor to supervise your health while you continue on this prayer sit-in on god's doorstep?  I really hope you are not going on a hunger strike until you get an answer.  

Remember, God gave himself an escape clause by saying something to the effect of, "if you test me then you do not understand me and I reserve the right to ignore you".  

You're right though, I have heard a lot of "after prayer with god and reading the bible I have come to the conclusion that..." but not a lot of "God spoke to me and told me to..." 

Has anyone after the bible been spoken to directly by god and not just through the words of the bible or things happening to them? And not just a feeling of calmness and love, but actual directives.


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## hawglips

This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but this thread reminds me of Luke 6:46.


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## Denton

hawglips said:


> This is not aimed at anyone in particular, but this thread reminds me of Luke 6:46.



You found the escape clause! and yes, this is exactly luke 6:46.


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## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> I do not draw any conclusions from the fact that I have not received the answer.  I have faith that if enough believers ask God for the answer, a few will receive it.



If I personally do not receive a clear answer, I can accept that it is because my relationship with God is not close enough, but is there no one on this forum whose relationship with God is such that they believe they may get a response?  Why is no one willing to help me with this?


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## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> If I personally do not receive a clear answer, I can accept that it is because my relationship with God is not close enough, but is there no one on this forum whose relationship with God is such that they believe they may get a response?  Why is no one willing to help me with this?



hobbs27 and I have a very close relationship with God.  In accordance with Matthew 18:19, we asked God to keep you in the dark on this matter.


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## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> hobbs27 and I have a very close relationship with God.  In accordance with Matthew 18:19, we asked God to keep you in the dark on this matter.



Have you asked God what He wishes for you to do?


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## gemcgrew

Denton said:


> Has anyone after the bible been spoken to directly by god and not just through the words of the bible or things happening to them? And not just a feeling of calmness and love, but actual directives.


If one knows that the words of the Bible are God's words, your question is just silly.


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## Denton

gemcgrew said:


> If one knows that the words of the Bible are God's words, your question is just silly.



sure, but couldn't there be more words? God used to talk a lot to many people, why the silent treatment? 

And after all the discussions here about the possible confusions, the possible human influence on the bible, the different churches within christianity all based on our various interpretations of god's word in the bible, is my question really that silly? Could just a little clarification from the boss have hurt?


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## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Have you asked God what He wishes for you to do?



Yes, and He made it clear:  ignore the restraining order and marry Kim Kardashian.


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## centerpin fan

Denton said:


> sure, but couldn't there be more words? God used to talk a lot to many people, why the silent treatment?




Because when Jesus said, "It is finished", He meant it.  There is no need for this:


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## formula1

*re:*

All the prayer in the world, all the fasting, all the faith, and all the sincerity in the most committed believer will not cause God to answer any question that doesn't meet with His purposes. If He doesn't want you to know, I promise you will not know.

Now why don't you ask something that is directly related to His purpose! But I suppose you have to understand what that is and how you fit into it. Perhaps you should pray for that!

How long? Until He answers!


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## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> All the prayer in the world, all the fasting, all the faith, and all the sincerity in the most committed believer will not cause God to answer any question that doesn't meet with His purposes. If He doesn't want you to know, I promise you will not know.
> 
> Now why don't you ask something that is directly related to His purpose! But I suppose you have to understand what that is and how you fit into it. Perhaps you should pray for that!
> 
> How long? Until He answers!



So you think the question is the problem?

The scripture I quoted in the OP led me to believe that it was alright to ask ANYTHING.  Several people on this forum have told me to ask God my questions.  That's what I'm trying to do and people are making fun of me.

From the reaction I am getting it does not seem like anyone actually believes that what they recommended will really work.  I still believe that it will.  It may not work for me but it might for someone else.  That's why I am asking for others' help. 

If I have no answer tomorrow and no one else is willing to help me, I'll change the question and keep on trying.


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## formula1

*Re:*

The problem is not the question, it is the motivation behind it all.  The heart of man is the issue.  Ever heard 'Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks'? The questions change when the motive is pure.

Luke 14
25 Now great crowds accompanied him, and he turned and said to them, 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. 28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? 29 Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, 30 saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31 Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? 32 And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. 33 So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple.


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## hummerpoo

^^^^^^Perhaps, the disciple's guiding scripture ^^^^^^


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## hobbs27

If you got an answer to this ridiculous question, wouldn't you do the same thing with The Lord as you do with us, and just ask another question, in hopes of tripping Him up? 
 It is not wise to test The Lord. It appears to me that you are as many with little faith as your question suggests...God if you're real do this, or that. I command you to show me or I won't believe.

 Listen , be aware , and humble yourself. God is showing you and all of us He is real. You can hear Him in the songs birds sing, you can see Him in the blooms of flowers and trees, you can see Him in a baby's smile, He's all around you, and the animals and plants around are praising Him, it's time we do too!


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## hobbs27

You can see and hear God here through this young man that is blind.


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## Ronnie T

1Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.


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## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> The problem is not the question, it is the motivation behind it all.  The heart of man is the issue.



I’m receiving responses as to why God may not answer MY prayer, as if I asked that question.  I’ve stated from the start that I understand that God may not answer me but if enough people ask, surely there is someone on this forum whose heart is in the right place to ask God a question and have faith that He will answer.

As for my heart and motivation, I’m at a major spiritual fork in the road.  A very close friend of mine committed suicide and that loss combined with all the emotional interaction with his family has catapulted Christian beliefs to the forefront of my life.  There has been a heavy dose of asking God for answers lately.

Plenty of people on this forum post about speaking with God daily.  Plenty of people on this forum post about receiving answered prayers.  I’ve asked for help in this but thus far all I have received is excuses for why I should not expect an answer.

For those of you who don’t like the question, even though you recommended I ask God my questions, I’ll change the question to an issue directly related to God’s plan for me;

*Is it God's wish that I join the church I currently attend or look elsewhere?*

I ask all of you to pray with me and ask God for the answer to this question.


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## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> *Is it God's wish that I join the church I currently attend ... *



Yes, unless the word "Westboro" is on the marquee.


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## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Yes, unless the word "Westboro" is on the marquee.



I guess it's a safe assumption that you did not actually ask God the question since God knows the name of the church I attend.


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## WaltL1

> Originally Posted by formula1 View Post
> The problem is not the question, it is the motivation behind it all. The heart of man is the issue.





HawgJawl said:


> I’m receiving responses as to why God may not answer MY prayer, as if I asked that question.  I’ve stated from the start that I understand that God may not answer me but if enough people ask, surely there is someone on this forum whose heart is in the right place to ask God a question and have faith that He will answer.
> 
> As for my heart and motivation, I’m at a major spiritual fork in the road.  A very close friend of mine committed suicide and that loss combined with all the emotional interaction with his family has catapulted Christian beliefs to the forefront of my life.  There has been a heavy dose of asking God for answers lately.
> 
> Plenty of people on this forum post about speaking with God daily.  Plenty of people on this forum post about receiving answered prayers.  I’ve asked for help in this but thus far all I have received is excuses for why I should not expect an answer.
> 
> For those of you who don’t like the question, even though you recommended I ask God my questions, I’ll change the question to an issue directly related to God’s plan for me;
> 
> *Is it God's wish that I join the church I currently attend or look elsewhere?*
> 
> I ask all of you to pray with me and ask God for the answer to this question.


Hawg, as an Agnostic, maybe Im out of line for throwing in my opinions here and if so I apologize and just ignore me. First of all Im giving you the benefit of doubt that you are being sincere and all of this isnt an elaborate charade. Sooo -
I think you are getting frustrated because you are asking questions whose answers can only come from inside you and I think that is formulas point. My opinion is also that, based on your questions and arguments, you already know where you stand but are doing your best to avoid it or not accept it. Your questions and arguments go far beyond someone who just has questions about their faith. Your questions and arguments indicate you have lost your faith. Its gone. The fact that no answer is good enough shows that. None of these guys answers are going to restore it and its really not fair to them to make them responsible for you getting it back.
I was once a believer. When no answers from myself or others to my questions were good enough I had to face the fact that I just didn't believe any more. My opinion is that's where you sit but are scratching and clawing to not accept that. There is a saying that goes something like "either poop or get off the pot".
You, yourself, have to pick one and go with it.
Again I don't mean to be out of line, just an opinion from someone who has sat where you seem to be.
And Im sorry about your friend. Ive been there too and it really sucks.


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## Michael F. Gray

God's answers are clearly printed in HIS WORD. Those who seek shall find.


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## ambush80

WaltL1 said:


> Hawg, as an Agnostic, maybe Im out of line for throwing in my opinions here and if so I apologize and just ignore me. First of all Im giving you the benefit of doubt that you are being sincere and all of this isnt an elaborate charade. Sooo -
> I think you are getting frustrated because you are asking questions whose answers can only come from inside you and I think that is formulas point. My opinion is also that, based on your questions and arguments, you already know where you stand but are doing your best to avoid it or not accept it. Your questions and arguments go far beyond someone who just has questions about their faith. Your questions and arguments indicate you have lost your faith. Its gone. The fact that no answer is good enough shows that. None of these guys answers are going to restore it and its really not fair on them to make them responsible for you getting it back.
> I was once a believer. When no answers from myself or others to my questions were good enough I had to face the fact that I just didn't believe any more. My opinion is that's where you sit but are scratching and clawing to not accept that. There is a saying that goes something like "either poop or get off the pot".
> You, yourself, have to pick one and go with it.
> Again I don't mean to be out of line, just an opinion from someone who has sat where you seem to be.
> And Im sorry about your friend. Ive been there too and it really sucks.



I think this is a very astute analysis.  Growing pains are hard.  It's gonna take real courage to let go of the apron strings.


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## HawgJawl

Is it God's will that I join the church I currently attend or should I look elsewhere?

I'll pray about this again tonight and I have faith that God will either answer me or someone else who prays on my behalf.


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## Israel

What does it mean "join the church I currently attend?"
You gather someplace with fellow believers. OK...but then,what?
Do you feel a need to formalize what's already there?
Do you feel the need to "add" to it? Put a little more "ooomph" in the relationships? Declare something? Sign something? Make a promise? Have someone write your name on a roll?
Life isn't that. "real" life, if one needs further clarification...already is...and you came to that when you acknowledged the Lord. There's nothing you can do to make brethren "more" your brethren...or less. We are joined so to speak, for better and worse...in thick and thin, in trials and joys. And the brothers you gather with "there" are no more or less your brothers on here...none of us got to pick the family we were born into the "first" time...even more so, now.
Sure, there may be ten different buildings in your town, (there are probably that in mine), each with a sign hanging outside (some may not...who knows)...and in each...there's probably more family....and _that_ (those) are who we are all joined with and in through Christ.
The "place" is not right...Christ is. The place is in so many ways...immaterial _unless_ to you and by you it is ascribed as something either superior or inferior. But even if inferiority is demonstrated in a "place" that demands a special allegiance to it over the whole of the body...well...that's  a matter for which you will need Jesus at the helm for navigating.
So, I really can't tell by your question...whence it comes...you...or the place I could perhaps infer is requesting something of you?
Either way, the question of "joining" something...if you are already joined to the One who has made us one...becomes the question you may need to reconsider...or consider at the first, if never considered before.


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## formula1

*re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I’m receiving responses as to why God may not answer MY prayer, as if I asked that question.  I’ve stated from the start that I understand that God may not answer me but if enough people ask, surely there is someone on this forum whose heart is in the right place to ask God a question and have faith that He will answer.
> 
> As for my heart and motivation, I’m at a major spiritual fork in the road.  A very close friend of mine committed suicide and that loss combined with all the emotional interaction with his family has catapulted Christian beliefs to the forefront of my life.  There has been a heavy dose of asking God for answers lately.
> 
> Plenty of people on this forum post about speaking with God daily.  Plenty of people on this forum post about receiving answered prayers.  I’ve asked for help in this but thus far all I have received is excuses for why I should not expect an answer.
> 
> For those of you who don’t like the question, even though you recommended I ask God my questions, I’ll change the question to an issue directly related to God’s plan for me;
> 
> *Is it God's wish that I join the church I currently attend or look elsewhere?*
> 
> I ask all of you to pray with me and ask God for the answer to this question.




Hawg,

I have been reading and I really hear you and I have been praying for you. We have more in common than you think and if you would like to meet sometime, just shoot me a pm.  Don't think u can really know someone otherwise. God bless!


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## HawgJawl

To those who are praying with me;
Thank you.  I'm making every effort to prepare my heart to be receptive.  I just have to remind myself to be patient.  I'm anxious to hear the answer God sends me through you.

To those who have offered your opinions;
I appreciate you taking the time to express your personal opinions on this matter.  However, I am not yet ready to settle for personal opinion.  That feels like giving up to me.  It feels like a lack of faith.

I'm trying to remain focused and increase my faith that God will send me an answer.


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## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Is it God's will that I join the church I currently attend or should I look elsewhere?



Join the church until He clearly tells you to go elsewhere.

Problem solved.  

Next!


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## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> A friend of mine has left his family behind and gone to work in North Dakota so he can make enough money to save his families farm.
> 
> Another friend of mine just found out this week that his wife has brain and lung cancer.
> 
> A man I have known for a long time is suffering from Parkinson's disease and lost his wife of over 50 years last year.
> 
> I have traveled all around from church to church trying to find a place I can raise my youngest daughter in ..a place that I won't be a hindrance to.
> 
> But let me take the whole day..repenting and getting things out of the way from me and God...just so I can ask the Almighty God if  modern animals evolved from lower life forms!
> This kind of --unbelief-- is why I seldom participate in the AAA forum. Their ignorance of God is like explaining Bacnet control systems to a neanderthal.



Which one was the neanderthal..Adam or Eve? One of them had to be if you are admitting to neanderthals existing.


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## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Which one was the neanderthal..Adam or Eve? One of them had to be if you are admitting to neanderthals existing.



Really? What set of rules are you referring to that forces one of the two Homo sapiens you have named to be Neanderthal?


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## hobbs27

<div id="fb-root"></div> <script>(function(d, s, id) { var js, fjs = d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0]; if (d.getElementById(id)) return; js = d.createElement(s); js.id = id; js.src = "//connect.facebook.net/en_US/all.js#xfbml=1"; fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js, fjs); }(document, 'script', 'facebook-jssdk'));</script>
<div class="fb-post" data-href="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=532740836843670" data-width="466"><div class="fb-xfbml-parse-ignore">Post by State Rep. Mandi Ballinger.</div></div>


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## Israel

WaltL1 said:


> Hawg, as an Agnostic, maybe Im out of line for throwing in my opinions here and if so I apologize and just ignore me. First of all Im giving you the benefit of doubt that you are being sincere and all of this isnt an elaborate charade. Sooo -
> I think you are getting frustrated because you are asking questions whose answers can only come from inside you and I think that is formulas point. My opinion is also that, based on your questions and arguments, you already know where you stand but are doing your best to avoid it or not accept it. Your questions and arguments go far beyond someone who just has questions about their faith. Your questions and arguments indicate you have lost your faith. Its gone. The fact that no answer is good enough shows that. None of these guys answers are going to restore it and its really not fair to them to make them responsible for you getting it back.
> I was once a believer. When no answers from myself or others to my questions were good enough I had to face the fact that I just didn't believe any more. My opinion is that's where you sit but are scratching and clawing to not accept that. There is a saying that goes something like "either poop or get off the pot".
> You, yourself, have to pick one and go with it.
> Again I don't mean to be out of line, just an opinion from someone who has sat where you seem to be.
> And Im sorry about your friend. Ive been there too and it really sucks.



I wonder if Gamaliel put the brothers to thinking, and maybe even a little shame, with his insights.
God is not owned by those that call themselves christian, and neither, therefore, is wisdom.


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## Denton

Israel said:


> God is not owned by those that call themselves christian, and neither, therefore, is wisdom.



You're right.  But would you say that christianity is owned by those that call themselves christian? Many agnostics don't have a problem with god, just with organized religion.


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## hobbs27

Denton, theres over 41,000 denomintions within Christinity...Do you call that organized?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations


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## Israel

Denton said:


> You're right.  But would you say that christianity is owned by those that call themselves christian? Many agnostics don't have a problem with god, just with organized religion.


Maybe that's why I rarely do, if ever, anymore.
Call myself christian.
Not because the term offends me, but it may easily be an offense to others...not in terms of Christ...but in their assumptions about what an overused and ambiguously broad term may mean to them.
Precision of word, if born of precision of thought, will eventually provoke precision of thought.
Jesus practices this.
In part the miasma is owed to the vague and almost ubiquitous canard that God is calling men through Christ to a religion called christianity.
God calls to life through Christ, the manifestation of the truth of resurrection, by which the seal is set to mercy.
The do's and don'ts are often all one hears when reference is made to a system of religion.
Introducing a person, is quite another matter.
For, after introductions, it really is up to the other parties to decide what kind of relationship they will have.


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## Denton

hobbs27 said:


> Denton, theres over 41,000 denomintions within Christinity...Do you call that organized?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations



I had no idea there were that many groups that disagreed about god's word.  

It's still more organized than on a personal, individual level and that's what I had in mind.  They are all organized around the bible and still congregate in groups, no matter how small a denomination is.  

Israel, did you mean that the Christian God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are what they are regardless of what christians say they are? Or did you mean that God and Wisdom could be found anywhere and not just by christians because they do not own either?


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## Israel

Denton said:


> I had no idea there were that many groups that disagreed about god's word.
> 
> It's still more organized than on a personal, individual level and that's what I had in mind.  They are all organized around the bible and still congregate in groups, no matter how small a denomination is.
> 
> Israel, did you mean that the Christian God/Jesus/Holy Spirit are what they are regardless of what christians say they are? Or did you mean that God and Wisdom could be found anywhere and not just by christians because they do not own either?




More...that.
Now...were it not for God alone, that could appear to leave me in the unenviable place of seeming to speak as an elitist for a God who has already determined to receive all who call upon him in truth.
Integrity to the death.
Men may not know the name at first...but all men are able to recognize it when they see it.


----------



## hobbs27

Denton said:


> I had no idea there were that many groups that disagreed about god's word.
> 
> It's still more organized than on a personal, individual level and that's what I had in mind.  They are all organized around the bible and still congregate in groups, no matter how small a denomination is.



I think it is pleasing to the Lord that people of different socio geographic, and socio economic groups can get togther and worship the same God in different ways. Yes there's some disagreement on Gods word in the different denominations but its mostly disagreement in traditions, while most maintain the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior.


----------



## Denton

Israel said:


> Maybe that's why I rarely do, if ever, anymore.
> Call myself christian.
> Not because the term offends me, but it may easily be an offense to others...not in terms of Christ...but in their assumptions about what an overused and ambiguously broad term may mean to them.



I completely understand.  I live in Atlanta and every now and then I find myself in a group of people where I don't mention hunting or my concealed carry permit right away. Religion, like these, are often painted with a broad brush so that I don't want to talk about it until I trust them.  Or autonomously like here!  



Israel said:


> Precision of word, if born of precision of thought, will eventually provoke precision of thought.
> Jesus practices this.
> In part the miasma is owed to the vague and almost ubiquitous canard that God is calling men through Christ to a religion called christianity.
> God calls to life through Christ, the manifestation of the truth of resurrection, by which the seal is set to mercy.
> The do's and don'ts are often all one hears when reference is made to a system of religion.
> Introducing a person, is quite another matter.
> For, after introductions, it really is up to the other parties to decide what kind of relationship they will have.



If each party is left to decide what kind of relationship he or she will have with god, aside from accepting christ, then are we not left with individual religions tailored to the believer in exactly the same way as if we were simply deciding for ourselves, without outside divine influence, what best suits us? Tying it back to the OP, how do we then decide if what we hear is our own thoughts or divine? 

Don't get me wrong, I really like what you are saying about each person's individual freedom to believe how they see fit under the banner of the holy trinity who love you, want peace, and died for your sins. You seem to have a more free thinking point of view and I want to hear more.  



Israel said:


> More...that.
> Now...were it not for God alone, that could appear to leave me in the unenviable place of seeming to speak as an elitist for a God who has already determined to receive all who call upon him in truth.
> Integrity to the death.
> Men may not know the name at first...but all men are able to recognize it when they see it.



To recap, the holy trinity is what it is.  Whatever man may say about it, or think, it is stable.  And that men will know it when they see it.  

As Hobbs helped point out, how do we know that when a man sees one of the 41,000 flavors of christianity (who are the only people who believe in the holy trinity) are they truly knowing the holy trinity through divine inspiration when they see it or are just picking what they like the best for themselves? 

Or for you is it simply enough that they believe in the holy trinity over all others and the actual do's and don'ts are irrelevant?


----------



## Denton

hobbs27 said:


> I think it is pleasing to the Lord that people of different socio geographic, and socio economic groups can get togther and worship the same God in different ways. Yes there's some disagreement on Gods word in the different denominations but its mostly disagreement in traditions, while most maintain the Lord Jesus Christ is the Savior.



So it is organized, mostly.  More than agnostics or athiests or individuals.  I'm just being silly with you hobbs.  

Like any good ruler, I think you are right that god is pleased to accept people's differences in how they worship him much like the roman's cared little for religion so long as the regions gave soldiers and paid their taxes.  How broadly do you draw the line? Individual freedoms may well accept worshiping with rattlesnakes but when there is a split regarding the acceptance of homosexuality should that be allowed?  If your choice of denomination is between one that accepts gays or one that does not, are we self-sorting based on our own notions and not divinely inspired?  I know you cannot answer whether god picks sides or not.  Just are our choices truly divinely inspired and who is wrong? If we cannot know, then all we can do is trust ourselves to make the right choice, divinely inspired if we think we are, or owning that decision entirely ourselves.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Really? What set of rules are you referring to that forces one of the two Homo sapiens you have named to be Neanderthal?



Did neanderthals arrive in the 6000 years after A&E?


----------



## hobbs27

Denton said:


> So it is organized, mostly.  More than agnostics or athiests or individuals.  I'm just being silly with you hobbs.
> 
> Like any good ruler, I think you are right that god is pleased to accept people's differences in how they worship him much like the roman's cared little for religion so long as the regions gave soldiers and paid their taxes.  How broadly do you draw the line? Individual freedoms may well accept worshiping with rattlesnakes but when there is a split regarding the acceptance of homosexuality should that be allowed?  If your choice of denomination is between one that accepts gays or one that does not, are we self-sorting based on our own notions and not divinely inspired?  I know you cannot answer whether god picks sides or not.  Just are our choices truly divinely inspired and who is wrong? If we cannot know, then all we can do is trust ourselves to make the right choice, divinely inspired if we think we are, or owning that decision entirely ourselves.



God picks individuals, not sides. Individuals pick sides. If an individual that has been chosen by God decides to worship in a church that comforts sinners then that individual will face the consequences of not being a light to the Lord. Consequences of this will be faced in the present Kingdom of God. 
 Scripture is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven...this means they cannot be saved. To deny this scripture and tell the homosexual that they are just fine in the way they are living is comforting that poor soul to he11. I dont want that on me, as Im judged by our Lord.


----------



## Israel

Denton said:


> I completely understand.  I live in Atlanta and every now and then I find myself in a group of people where I don't mention hunting or my concealed carry permit right away. Religion, like these, are often painted with a broad brush so that I don't want to talk about it until I trust them.  Or autonomously like here!
> 
> 
> 
> _If each party is left to decide what kind of relationship he or she will have with god, aside from accepting christ, then are we not left with individual religions tailored to the believer in exactly the same way as if we were simply deciding for ourselves, without outside divine influence, what best suits us?_ Tying it back to the OP, how do we then decide if what we hear is our own thoughts or divine?
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I really like what you are saying about each person's individual freedom to believe how they see fit under the banner of the holy trinity who love you, want peace, and died for your sins. You seem to have a more free thinking point of view and I want to hear more.
> 
> 
> 
> To recap, the holy trinity is what it is.  Whatever man may say about it, or think, it is stable.  And that men will know it when they see it.
> 
> As Hobbs helped point out, how do we know that when a man sees one of the 41,000 flavors of christianity (who are the only people who believe in the holy trinity) are they truly knowing the holy trinity through divine inspiration when they see it or are just picking what they like the best for themselves?
> 
> Or for you is it simply enough that they believe in the holy trinity over all others and the actual do's and don'ts are irrelevant?



That's something else I don't mention much, again, not because I have an issue with Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but because "holy trinity" is a term I have discovered, first in myself, to be of little utility, and less necessity.

I was once very troubled by what I perceived as divisions, flavors, sects and denominations...but that was when I wanted to be an "apostleprophetevangelistpastorteacher" and I thought the whole of the church was my responsibility to straighten out, and that every use and mention of the name Jesus was a personal call to me to inspect for integrity.
Now, not so much.
It is enough I have one temple to maintain, one garden, not with disregard for others...but with attention, again, to introductions I may be called upon to participate in.
There is nothing more needful for me now, that introductions be proper, for I have often felt the sting of my own hypocrisy when called upon to introduce the One who is Lord...is plainly demonstrated through me to be nothing more than a poor excuse to demonstrate my own self.
The Jesus I see, and need, is so often not the Jesus I show. 
For this, I am glad for mercy.
And begin to appreciate why I, of all men, need so much of what I once scorned.


----------



## hobbs27

bullethead said:


> Did neanderthals arrive in the 6000 years after A&E?



 Sorry, Im not a young earth Christian. I cant answer wholly to how long we have been here, or how Adam and Eve's story really relates to all mankind. What I do know with no doubt whatsoever is that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and has shown me this in many ways throughout my life. He is currently Lord of Lords and King of Kings.

 I have questioned things in the Bible before, things like the Adam and Eve story and been shown later that while it doesnt make natural earthly sense, that these stories can be perfectly explained in a spiritual sense.

 I believe man and neanderthal lived side by side for a little while, and probably inter-bred. I also believe man has been on earth for many many more years than what the bible records---but what I know even more than those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is Lord.


----------



## bullethead

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry, Im not a young earth Christian. I cant answer wholly to how long we have been here, or how Adam and Eve's story really relates to all mankind. What I do know with no doubt whatsoever is that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior and has shown me this in many ways throughout my life. He is currently Lord of Lords and King of Kings.
> 
> I have questioned things in the Bible before, things like the Adam and Eve story and been shown later that while it doesnt make natural earthly sense, that these stories can be perfectly explained in a spiritual sense.
> 
> I believe man and neanderthal lived side by side for a little while, and probably inter-bred. I also believe man has been on earth for many many more years than what the bible records---but what I know even more than those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is Lord.



Yes, I agree to a point, in that to believe in most of these things they would have to be taken in another sense.


----------



## Denton

hobbs27 said:


> God picks individuals, not sides. Individuals pick sides. If an individual that has been chosen by God decides to worship in a church that comforts sinners then that individual will face the consequences of not being a light to the Lord. Consequences of this will be faced in the present Kingdom of God.
> Scripture is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven...this means they cannot be saved. To deny this scripture and tell the homosexual that they are just fine in the way they are living is comforting that poor soul to he11. I dont want that on me, as Im judged by our Lord.





hobbs27 said:


> Sorry, Im not a young earth Christian. I cant answer wholly to how long we have been here, or how Adam and Eve's story really relates to all mankind.
> 
> I have questioned things in the Bible before, things like the Adam and Eve story and been shown later that while it doesnt make natural earthly sense, that these stories can be perfectly explained in a spiritual sense.
> 
> I believe man and neanderthal lived side by side for a little while, and probably inter-bred. I also believe man has been on earth for many many more years than what the bible records---but what I know even more than those beliefs is that Jesus Christ is Lord.



How do you reconcile how you feel that "scripture is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven" with how the adam and eve story doesn't make natural earthly sense to you? The wording on both are equally as clear.  Don't lie with a man as you would a woman and god made adam and eve.  

You are still choosing how to believe/interpret scripture based on what makes sense to you, not divine inspiration.   Are you really sure that your own personal prejudices are not getting in the way?


----------



## Denton

And if your own personal prejudices are intruding on how you read the bible, that's fine.  It's just about impossible to not do so.  Just be self-aware of that issue.


----------



## hobbs27

Denton said:


> How do you reconcile how you feel that "scripture is clear that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven" with how the adam and eve story doesn't make natural earthly sense to you? The wording on both are equally as clear.  Don't lie with a man as you would a woman and god made adam and eve.
> 
> You are still choosing how to believe/interpret scripture based on what makes sense to you, not divine inspiration.   Are you really sure that your own personal prejudices are not getting in the way?




I base it on context. There are things in Genesis that is hard to understand. It was written in an old Hebrew language and translated many times over the years. I don't understand it all, but I do see areas that leave allowances for other people being around at the time of Adam and Eve.

The Epistles written by the Apostles on the other hand are fairly clear. Written in Greek and translated into English is fairly simple, plus the epistles are letters to the churches giving instruction for the church in the NT, which we are living in today..now let me ask you this.

 Since I believe the bible  clearly states a homosexual cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and I believe this to be true without any doubt. Is it more hateful for me to proclaim my belief and tell homosexuals scripture says to repent and be saved or is it more hateful to tell them its OK to be gay , knowing they will spend eternity in he11?


----------



## HawgJawl

I've haven't yet received a clear answer from God.  I'm still hopeful that either I will or someone else will on my behalf.

I'm trying to be patient but there are things happening at my church that will eventually force me to pick sides.  I ask that you join me in prayer to determine if God wants me to be part of what is happening.

I have all the personal opinions I can deal with right now.  What I need is to know God's will for me.


----------



## Denton

hobbs27 said:


> I base it on context. There are things in Genesis that is hard to understand. It was written in an old Hebrew language and translated many times over the years. I don't understand it all, but I do see areas that leave allowances for other people being around at the time of Adam and Eve.
> 
> The Epistles written by the Apostles on the other hand are fairly clear. Written in Greek and translated into English is fairly simple, plus the epistles are letters to the churches giving instruction for the church in the NT, which we are living in today..now let me ask you this.
> 
> Since I believe the bible  clearly states a homosexual cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and I believe this to be true without any doubt. Is it more hateful for me to proclaim my belief and tell homosexuals scripture says to repent and be saved or is it more hateful to tell them its OK to be gay , knowing they will spend eternity in he11?



Yet that is still you judging the context and building a background for which beliefs to keep.  You have yet to take yourself out of the equation.  You are weighing the subjective difficulties as you see them of translation, allowing for human error or allowances in the bible you hold dear, while judging that error was not as likely in another case.   

We can discuss the probability of errors all you want, but once you allow for them, then there could be errors in many places.  

The torah, for example, is still in hebrew and as a whole has been studied and protected for even longer than the bible's creation thus protecting much of the old testament in as much of an original form as any of the sections included in the new testament.   

This is irrelevant, once you start down that path of picking which sections of the bible are more believable then you start to personalize your faith based on what you desire.  Or else god is speaking to you about which parts of the bible to follow.


----------



## Denton

HawgJawl said:


> I've haven't yet received a clear answer from God.  I'm still hopeful that either I will or someone else will on my behalf.
> 
> I'm trying to be patient but there are things happening at my church that will eventually force me to pick sides.  I ask that you join me in prayer to determine if God wants me to be part of what is happening.
> 
> I have all the personal opinions I can deal with right now.  What I need is to know God's will for me.



Well now you just made us all really curious about what's going on.


----------



## Ronnie T

Well well.  I go off to worship service this morning and miss a really good discussion.  
.


----------



## HawgJawl

Denton said:


> Well now you just made us all really curious about what's going on.



The less you know about what is going on, the better, as your answer will be less influenced by your personal opinion on the matter.

My first question, which no one seemed to like, was just a starting point.  It was an attempt to weed out people who are unable to separate their own opinion from God's message.

I have a portion of the church who profess that God has spoken to them and He is leading them in a new direction.

I have a portion of the church who are skeptical of this "message from God" and view this new direction as a man-made idea which they are opposed to.

The rest of the church, including myself, are just spectators. 

I have people relaying God's will for me which is not surprisingly identical to their own view on the matter.

That is why I am asking you to help pray with me over this issue.  I obviously do not want to present you with all the information so that you can make a determination of what you would do.  I have plenty of that already.  God knows everything that is going on.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> The less you know about what is going on, the better, as your answer will be less influenced by your personal opinion on the matter.
> 
> My first question, which no one seemed to like, was just a starting point.  It was an attempt to weed out people who are unable to separate their own opinion from God's message.
> 
> I have a portion of the church who profess that God has spoken to them and He is leading them in a new direction.
> 
> I have a portion of the church who are skeptical of this "message from God" and view this new direction as a man-made idea which they are opposed to.
> 
> The rest of the church, including myself, are just spectators.
> 
> I have people relaying God's will for me which is not surprisingly identical to their own view on the matter.
> 
> That is why I am asking you to help pray with me over this issue.  I obviously do not want to present you with all the information so that you can make a determination of what you would do.  I have plenty of that already.  God knows everything that is going on.




Allow me to summarize:


----------



## Ronnie T

I'm thinking God has already answered your prayer in His holy Word.

On more than one occasion Paul warned believers to beware of any teaching that strayed from those things that were first taught by Jesus and then His apostles.

I've never been comfortable with any "new" understanding that wasn't first provided in God's word.


----------



## HawgJawl

Ronnie T said:


> I'm thinking God has already answered your prayer in His holy Word.
> 
> On more than one occasion Paul warned believers to beware of any teaching that strayed from those things that were first taught by Jesus and then His apostles.
> 
> I've never been comfortable with any "new" understanding that wasn't first provided in God's word.



Just like so many different denominations can justify their existence with scripture, so can both sides in this situation.

I can't completely trust any of the folks who are trying to convince me to support their position because I can never really know if their own personal opinion is the driving force or if it is God.  They all seem to have an agenda.  Maybe they are really being led by God.  If so, I wish He would speak to me.  If not, I hope He will relay a message to me through a few on this forum. 

I can more readily trust the word of someone who is not connected with this in any way, especially if they are given information from God that they would otherwise have no way of knowing.

I hope that makes sense.


----------



## Inthegarge

God answers prayers in 1 of 3 ways....  Yes, No and Wait...  When ever I am unsure about the answer I wait.... In church situations I usually ask myself if this thing glorifies God or is it causing confusion ??  God doesn't confuse, He convicts....


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I base it on context. There are things in Genesis that is hard to understand. It was written in an old Hebrew language and translated many times over the years. I don't understand it all, but I do see areas that leave allowances for other people being around at the time of Adam and Eve.
> 
> The Epistles written by the Apostles on the other hand are fairly clear. Written in Greek and translated into English is fairly simple, plus the epistles are letters to the churches giving instruction for the church in the NT, which we are living in today..now let me ask you this.
> 
> Since I believe the bible  clearly states a homosexual cannot enter the kingdom of heaven, and I believe this to be true without any doubt. Is it more hateful for me to proclaim my belief and tell homosexuals scripture says to repent and be saved or is it more hateful to tell them its OK to be gay , knowing they will spend eternity in he11?



And I use that same logic to see the biblical translation of homosexual as being a heterosexual male lying with a male.
It is hard not to use our own logic. I do agree that there were other people on the earth when Adam & Eve were created. I would assume God used science to create Adam and Eve as he used science to create everything else.


----------



## HawgJawl

Inthegarge said:


> God answers prayers in 1 of 3 ways....  Yes, No and Wait...  When ever I am unsure about the answer I wait.... In church situations I usually ask myself if this thing glorifies God or is it causing confusion ??  God doesn't confuse, He convicts....



My church has been kinda "stale" for a long time, so a change could be a good thing.  My primary question is if this particular change is being led by God or not.  If the people claiming to be led by God are in fact not being led by God, I want no part of this because they are either lying or they can not tell if they are being led by God or their own personal opinions.


----------



## Israel

You can print this whole thread and make about 100 copies. If there are 100 members. If there are a 1,000, it will still make the rounds.
You can arrive at your meeting place and set up a card table with a sign..."one member's concerns", or you can just hand them out with a cover sheet stating thus. You don't have to tell anyone you are the member. Unless of course...your real name is Hawg Jawl.
If you are being sincere, your sincerity will touch others of the faith of Christ.
If you are being sincere, and none others are touched, you can stand in the parking lot and preach repentance and faith in Christ.

If the "they" in your sentence "they all seem to have an agenda" stretches to our little paragraphs here, also...then you have a better starting point then at first.

Hawg, no one really desires to be thought crazy, but if one is allowed to glimpse the true cost to the soul in trying to have others believe you are, that's a small price, indeed.
Besides, you discover, no one believes anyone but themselves are truly normal.
You may be able to help someone who has a death grip on the illusion of sanity.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> Is it God's will that I join the church I currently attend or should I look elsewhere?



No one should tell you an answer based on on something they hear (or think they hear) on your behalf.  They can pray for you and your decision, offer things to think about, but it is and should be your decision.  It is reasonable to say that God speaks in and through others in the church for the expressed purpose for building up each other in their faith in Christ.  Anything outside of 'building you up' is likely outside of His purpose and direction.

Also, perhaps your crossroads of faith and it's personal effect make it difficult to identify a reasonable decision about your church.  You can stay or go or wait it out, as long as you can stay and still be strengthened in faith in Christ, you can go and start anew in a place where you are confident you will be strengthened in faith in Christ, and stay if you have thick skin and you feel you can still be built up in the faith through the process, and also help others through it.  

I am still praying for your decision and one thing I'm a sure of is, when you sincerely approach Him, He will provide an answer and His peace will fall upon you.

God Bless!


----------



## HawgJawl

I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your post.

Let me dig a little deeper toward the core of my question.  

Is this change really being led by God?

If it is, I need to be a part of it.  If it is not, I do not need to be a part of it.  I don't want to concentrate on what I want or what feels right to me.  If this change in direction is God's will, then what I personally think about it should not matter.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your post.
> 
> Let me dig a little deeper toward the core of my question.
> 
> Is this change really being led by God?
> 
> If it is, I need to be a part of it.  If it is not, I do not need to be a part of it.  I don't want to concentrate on what I want or what feels right to me.  If this change in direction is God's will, then what I personally think about it should not matter.



I understand your thinking and I agree. It amounts to if this change came from God, you don't want to miss His will, regardless of whether you like it or not! Let's move with God (said another way)!  Further, you are right in recognizing that what feels good is not necessarily a good criteria.

Some things I would think about:

1) Will this change be in keeping with scripture, both the letter of the written word and the spirit of it? I personally won't evaluate a matter on 1 scripture. It takes mutiples for me!

2) Will the change benefit your local church and the community in which you live?  More specifically, will your church be more able to present the Gospel of Christ to your community as a result?

3) Will the change potentially take away the Love of Christ from your church? And further, will it make you love or care for those that are against it less? A solid understanding of 1 Cor 13 and Christ's words on love should be considered here.

If you can satisfy those, I would also consider another:

3) Will the change bring separation between you and the ones (family, perhaps church friends) you are closest to? And if so, is that acceptable to you?


----------



## HawgJawl

I was really, really hoping for word from God.  I'm not ready to give up on that just yet.  If God did in fact speak to these folks, why will He not speak to me or anyone else on this forum on my behalf?


----------



## Denton

HawgJawl said:


> I was really, really hoping for word from God.  I'm not ready to give up on that just yet.  If God did in fact speak to these folks, why will He not speak to me or anyone else on this forum on my behalf?



If he did, would you believe us when we told you he did?  I wouldn't believe me obviously from my previous comments.  Would you need confirmation through special inside information which you had not divulged to us?


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> I was really, really hoping for word from God.  I'm not ready to give up on that just yet.  If God did in fact speak to these folks, why will He not speak to me or anyone else on this forum on my behalf?



It's been mentioned here, is being mentioned a few times on the presently abutting thread. 
I trust you understand what a "need to know basis" means.
"If I will that he remain till I come, what's that to you, you, follow me"

Since you seem reluctant to say in your congregation what you seem more than ready to say here, that is: "None of this sounds clear enough from God for my satisfaction"...you may do them the favor, and a few here, too...to be consistent.
Either be a "spectator" (your word) in both, or enjoy the liberty there, that you exercise here.

If you operate in a different form of honesty "there", than here...well, you either see that as a primary issue, or not.

Otherwise, you are just gossiping about a group of folks whose sincerity and/or spirituality you have already expressed doubts about.

Δεν χάλια όπου μπορείτε να φάτε


----------



## HawgJawl

Denton said:


> Would you need confirmation through special inside information which you had not divulged to us?



Yes.  I would expect that if God sent a message to me through someone on this forum, that message would include information that the messenger would not otherwise know.


----------



## HawgJawl

Israel said:


> It's been mentioned here, is being mentioned a few times on the presently abutting thread.
> I trust you understand what a "need to know basis" means.
> "If I will that he remain till I come, what's that to you, you, follow me"
> 
> Since you seem reluctant to say in your congregation what you seem more than ready to say here, that is: "None of this sounds clear enough from God for my satisfaction"...you may do them the favor, and a few here, too...to be consistent.
> Either be a "spectator" (your word) in both, or enjoy the liberty there, that you exercise here.
> 
> If you operate in a different form of honesty "there", than here...well, you either see that as a primary issue, or not.
> 
> Otherwise, you are just gossiping about a group of folks whose sincerity and/or spirituality you have already expressed doubts about.
> 
> Δεν χάλια όπου μπορείτε να φάτε



If God spoke to me and told me to just follow Him and not ask questions, there would be no need for this thread.

And as for speaking to the folks involved in this, there's a whole lot of that happening.  There's a whole lot of arguing over whether this is God's direction or not.  

The folks who profess this to be from God maintain their position and accuse those who oppose them of being deliberately disobedient to God.

The folks who did not receive this message are suspicious.  We wonder if it is real.  We wonder why we didn't receive the same message.  We wonder if some folks just jumped on the bandwagon so they can say God spoke to them too.  We wonder a lot of things and there has been a lot of arguing.

That's why I'm asking God to speak to me.  That's why I'm also asking you for your help in receiving an answer from God.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I was really, really hoping for word from God.  I'm not ready to give up on that just yet.  If God did in fact speak to these folks, why will He not speak to me or anyone else on this forum on my behalf?



God speaks in many ways, the primary one being His revealed word in Scripture.  And even if one hears God speaking to them in their spirit, that person would generally evaluate it against the Scriptures if they are wise. Scriptures are the primary basis for the Christian life and valid for discerning God's will! God might very well send you a message (perhaps He has already) through one here but you still have to test every spirit.  When you read scriptures, God is always speaking, but you do have to hear.

So why is that not good enough for your situation?

This request of yours is sounding as one who is seeking some proof of God and is not actually praying with true faith in God! So he tests his theories on those whom he believes say they are Christian and say they hear from God without taking self-responsibility for his own action and personal relationship with God.  Forgive me if I have overstepped your intent!


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> God might very well send you a message (perhaps He has already) through one here but you still have to test every spirit.



I guess I'm trying to test the spirit that spoke to them, or try to determine if they were actually spoken to at all.


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> This request of yours is sounding as one who is seeking some proof of God and is not actually praying with true faith in God! So he tests his theories on those whom he believes say they are Christian and say they hear from God without taking self-responsibility for his own action and personal relationship with God.  Forgive me if I have overstepped your intent!



If you will read back over this thread I think you will see that I am the ONLY one who has expressed any faith whatsoever that God may in fact speak to me or anyone else on this forum about this issue.


----------



## Denton

truth time hawg, do you think anyone since the compilation of the bible (if you think they put it together at the behest of god) has been spoken to directly by god in the direct manner that you are hoping for? 

Does anyone on this forum think so? If yes, who do you think was and why do you think so?


----------



## HawgJawl

Denton said:


> truth time hawg, do you think anyone since the compilation of the bible (if you think they put it together at the behest of god) has been spoken to directly by god in the direct manner that you are hoping for?
> 
> Does anyone on this forum think so? If yes, who do you think was and why do you think so?



Folks at my church say they were spoken to by God.

I was, in the ancient past, convinced that God spoke to me.  More recently, I have questioned whether it was all in my own mind.  Either way, God has not spoken to me in quite some time.

Many people on this forum have expressed that they speak to God daily.  Some people have expressed speaking to God on occasion.  Many have expressed a belief that God answers prayer.  That is what I am seeking.  My prayer is that God will send me a message, if not directly, then through any of the other people on this forum who profess a belief in this.


----------



## formula1

*re:*



HawgJawl said:


> If you will read back over this thread I think you will see that I am the ONLY one who has expressed any faith whatsoever that God may in fact speak to me or anyone else on this forum about this issue.



I completely disagree. Plenty of folks have expressed a living and genuine faith.  You have an 'I' issue that hinders faith.

Do u have faith in the revealed word of God? In the Holy Spirit? If so you already have what you need! So get rid of your conditional faith and trust God and SEEK and PRAY.  God operates His way, not yours, set no conditions and you will find what you are after.


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> I completely disagree. Plenty of folks have expressed a living and genuine faith.  You have an 'I' issue that hinders faith.
> 
> Do u have faith in the revealed word of God? In the Holy Spirit? If so you already have what you need! So get rid of your conditional faith and trust God and SEEK and PRAY.  God operates His way, not yours, set no conditions and you will find what you are after.



This is why I have been asking for others to pray with me.  Any problems with my faith should not have any effect upon the faith of others who believe that God answers prayer.  

What could it possibly hurt to include my question into your daily conversation with God?  I don't understand why everyone is so reluctant to ask God this question for me.  I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything.  I'm asking you to act upon the beliefs you have professed for years.


----------



## Denton

formula1 said:


> I completely disagree. Plenty of folks have expressed a living and genuine faith.  You have an 'I' issue that hinders faith.
> 
> Do u have faith in the revealed word of God? In the Holy Spirit? If so you already have what you need! So get rid of your conditional faith and trust God and SEEK and PRAY.  God operates His way, not yours, set no conditions and you will find what you are after.



I think the point was to take the personal interpretation of the bible out of this decision he has to make as well as his own personal feelings.  Looking to the bible for answers is still reliant upon the interpretation of the reader.  I'm sure you can find passages in the bible for both loyalty to your standing community as well as reinforcement for standing against the establishment.  Hence his dilemma.


----------



## formula1

*re:*



Denton said:


> I think the point was to take the personal interpretation of the bible out of this decision he has to make as well as his own personal feelings.  Looking to the bible for answers is still reliant upon the interpretation of the reader.  I'm sure you can find passages in the bible for both loyalty to your standing community as well as reinforcement for standing against the establishment.  Hence his dilemma.



Respect what you are saying, but if u are seeking God for answers, finding them in the Scriptures as led by the Holy Spirit coupled with prayer is central to the walk of a believer.


----------



## formula1

*re:*



HawgJawl said:


> What could it possibly hurt to include my question into your daily conversation with God?



I am doing that. You keep going back to the same question thinking no one hears you though.

What if God doesn't answer you? Is His grace enough for you?


----------



## Denton

formula1 said:


> Respect what you are saying, but if u are seeking God for answers, finding them in the Scriptures as led by the Holy Spirit coupled with prayer is central to the walk of a believer.



Absolutely you are right that the first place to turn is to the scriptures. But where do you turn when the scriptures could guide in two different directions and you do not trust yourself to be able to distinguish your own voice from that of god?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

HawgJawl said:


> Just like so many different denominations can justify their existence with scripture, so can both sides in this situation.
> 
> I can't completely trust any of the folks who are trying to convince me to support their position because I can never really know if their own personal opinion is the driving force or if it is God.  They all seem to have an agenda.  Maybe they are really being led by God.  If so, I wish He would speak to me.  If not, I hope He will relay a message to me through a few on this forum.
> 
> I can more readily trust the word of someone who is not connected with this in any way, especially if they are given information from God that they would otherwise have no way of knowing.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.



For what it's worth I am aware of a similar situation.g  This is how I have decided to handle it.  

I asked myself if I truely needed to voice an opinion on this and decided that I don't. (The older I get, the more that happens.  I don't know if this is a wise decision on my behalf or not, but it sure keeps me out of any drama and that's a wonderful thing.)  I reminded myself that I have a personal relationship with Christ, and I am not going to let squabbles intrude into that relationship any more than I would let a neighbors or family members squabbles come between me and my wife.  I wont insert myself into it.  I have made it known that I don't even want to hear about it, much less discuss it.  

Guard your relationship with Christ first, your family second, and then maybe the Church is a distant third.  Do this and you will be better for it.  That's not a cliche nor meant as a platitude..but advice I am following myself this very week.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

formula1 said:


> I am doing that. You keep going back to the same question thinking no one hears you though.
> 
> What if God doesn't answer you? Is His grace enough for you?



You and a few others here always give wise advice.  Just wanted to take the opportunity to say Thank You.


----------



## formula1

Denton said:


> Absolutely you are right that the first place to turn is to the scriptures. But where do you turn when the scriptures could guide in two different directions and you do not trust yourself to be able to distinguish your own voice from that of god?



I would turn to the Holy Spirit for guidance. The few times I had the these issues they were always painful and sometimes even seemed like bad decisions, but in the end they were right. It just goes to show for me the eternal keeping power of God holding on to me  in tough times.

I am grateful. May God bless!


----------



## M80

HawgJawl said:


> I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your post.
> 
> Let me dig a little deeper toward the core of my question.
> 
> Is this change really being led by God?
> 
> If it is, I need to be a part of it.  If it is not, I do not need to be a part of it.  I don't want to concentrate on what I want or what feels right to me.  If this change in direction is God's will, then what I personally think about it should not matter.



I would be reluctant about this "change". The bible says God is an unchanging God. Jerimiah says seek out the old paths. I'm not for change, what kind of change are you talking about. 

I'll be praying God gives you the answer your looking for. I will say its hard for one of us or anyone else to pray that God shows us the will for your life. That's between you and God. When The Lord called me to preach it was between me and him. If someone else came to me and said" The Lord told me to tell you he is calling you to preach, I would say they was crazy", but I knew The Lord was calling me. 

If The Lord opens a door for you walk through it. If the door isn't opening, you better be paying attention to him. When I ever bought a car I would pray The Lord would show me if it was his will for me to get it. If I kept running into problems like payments wasn't what I needed or little problems coming up I knew the lord didn't want me to get it. If everything was laid out on a silver platter for me it was like The Lord was saying there you go. 

I will be praying. Trust in The Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways consider him and he shall direct thy path.


----------



## formula1

SemperFiDawg said:


> You and a few others here always give wise advice.  Just wanted to take the opportunity to say Thank You.



You're welcome! But really, I've only made enough mistakes for God to correct me and I learned from them. To His glory!

Proverbs 24:3-4


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> What if God doesn't answer you? Is His grace enough for you?



I don't know.  I'm doing everything I know to do to make myself receptive to God's leadership.  If I am unable to feel the presence of God in my life, I guess I have a decision to make.

I was comfortable sitting back as a spectator for way too long.  My friend's suicide made me evaluate my own spiritual condition which I find totally lacking.  That's why I am no longer satisfied to just sit back and watch.  

I have been told by friends that God has spoken to them.  If that's true, it is very exciting and something I really want to be part of.  If it is not true, I don't know where that leaves me.


----------



## HawgJawl

SemperFiDawg said:


> I reminded myself that I have a personal relationship with Christ, and I am not going to let squabbles intrude into that relationship any more than I would let a neighbors or family members squabbles come between me and my wife.



If I felt a personal relationship with Christ, this would be much easier.  I certainly felt it in my youth.  I was convinced of it for the first half of my life.  The second half of my life has been full of questions and recently I've been unable to convince myself that the whole thing was not a product of my own mind.  

I would truly love to be back in the mindset of my youth.  All it would take is for God to speak to me.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I was, in the ancient past, convinced that God spoke to me.  More recently, I have questioned whether it was all in my own mind.  Either way, God has not spoken to me in quite some time.


Just a few questions if you don't mind. Would not all of your experiences be in your mind? Do you believe the mind is the brain or separate from it? Where do you believe your thoughts originate?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> I would truly love to be back in the mindset of my youth.  All it would take is for God to speak to me.



Don't hold your breath waiting for a "burning bush" moment.


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> Don't hold your breath waiting for a "burning bush" moment.



Hum! 

(But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.)

 Who is this mind I serve? Is it may master? Can it ask for me...." Heal my servant?"


----------



## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> Hum!
> 
> (But just say the word, and my servant will be healed.)
> 
> Who is this mind I serve? Is it may master?


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> Just a few questions if you don't mind. Would not all of your experiences be in your mind? Do you believe the mind is the brain or separate from it? Where do you believe your thoughts originate?



I don't know.  As I admitted earlier in this thread, I'm not sure I can tell the difference between something that my mind is processing and something my mind is inventing, especially if it is something I really want to hear.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Don't hold your breath waiting for a "burning bush" moment.



I'm not asking for a burning bush, a mountain moved, fire from heaven, or any type of miraculous act.  I'm asking for the exact same thing that other folks in my church professed happened to them.  If God did not really speak to them, then I guess I am asking for an answered prayer in the form of a message from God saying that He is not leading the folks in my church in this new direction.

If God chooses not to speak to me, I wish He would send this message to me through someone on this forum, along with enough specific details the person would not know otherwise, to confirm it is actually from God and not just that person's opinion.


----------



## WaltL1

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not asking for a burning bush, a mountain moved, fire from heaven, or any type of miraculous act.  I'm asking for the exact same thing that other folks in my church professed happened to them.  If God did not really speak to them, then I guess I am asking for an answered prayer in the form of a message from God saying that He is not leading the folks in my church in this new direction.
> 
> If God chooses not to speak to me, I wish He would send this message to me through someone on this forum, along with enough specific details the person would not know otherwise, to confirm it is actually from God and not just that person's opinion.


Just curious -
How do you plan on determining the difference between these someones -


> I wish He would send this message to me through someone


And these someones? -


> portion of the church who profess that God has spoken to them and He is leading them in a new direction.


You are trying to get to Believertown by traveling on Logic Street and Reason Street. But they go in the opposite direction. Faith Street and Belief Street will get you where you seem to want to go. 
Maybe stop asking for directions and just drive yourself?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not asking for a burning bush, a mountain moved, fire from heaven, or any type of miraculous act.  I'm asking for the exact same thing that other folks in my church professed happened to them.



Don't hold your breath waiting for that, either.  

Your description of the problem in posts 57 and 61 is so vague, it could be anything.  Maybe one group wants to change the color of the church carpet.  Maybe the minister wants to start a bizarre, Manson-style sex cult.  Who knows?

My guess is it's "much ado about nothing" as far as your salvation goes.  Don't worry about it.  "This life has been given to you for repentance.  Don't waste it on other things."  (St. Isaac the Syrian)


----------



## HawgJawl

WaltL1 said:


> Just curious -
> How do you plan on determining the difference between these someones -
> 
> And these someones? -



If I provided all the details about the issue on this forum, I would have no way of separating personal opinion from a message from God.  If someone on this forum can provide specific information about this issue that would be unknown to them otherwise, their message must actually be from God.

I have no way of knowing if the message professed by folks at my church is really from God unless Gods speaks to me also.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Don't hold your breath waiting for that, either.
> 
> Your description of the problem in posts 57 and 61 is so vague, it could be anything.  Maybe one group wants to change the color of the church carpet.  Maybe the minister wants to start a bizarre, Manson-style sex cult.  Who knows?
> 
> My guess is it's "much ado about nothing" as far as your salvation goes.  Don't worry about it.  "This life has been given to you for repentance.  Don't waste it on other things."  (St. Isaac the Syrian)



If it were merely a difference of opinion that would be fine but folks are professing to have received a message from God.  I think it deserves an effort on my part to try to determine if God really did speak to these folks about this issue.  If so, I want to be part of it.  If not, I want no part of it or them for that matter.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> If someone on this forum can provide specific information about this issue that would be unknown to them otherwise, their message must actually be from God.



Prepare to be disappointed.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Prepare to be disappointed.



Why?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Why?




Because you're not gonna get it unless this guy just joined the forum:


<script type="text/javascript" src="http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=3212270426001&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at video.foxnews.com</noscript>


----------



## WaltL1

HawgJawl said:


> If I provided all the details about the issue on this forum, I would have no way of separating personal opinion from a message from God.  If someone on this forum can provide specific information about this issue that would be unknown to them otherwise, their message must actually be from God.
> 
> I have no way of knowing if the message professed by folks at my church is really from God unless Gods speaks to me also.


You want God to tell someone else "Hey go tell Hawg, the Hawg with the Boss Hawg avatar, you know, the one that participates on the GON forum, to ......???
I don't even believe in gods and that seems uh "misdirected" to me.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Because you're not gonna get it unless this guy just joined the forum:
> 
> 
> <script type="text/javascript" src="http://video.foxnews.com/v/embed.js?id=3212270426001&w=466&h=263"></script><noscript>Watch the latest video at video.foxnews.com</noscript>



Do you believe that God answers prayers?


----------



## HawgJawl

WaltL1 said:


> You want God to tell someone else "Hey go tell Hawg, the Hawg with the Boss Hawg avatar, you know, the one that participates on the GON forum, to ......???
> I don't even believe in gods and that seems uh "misdirected" to me.



The Old Testament is full of messages sent by God through third parties.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God answers prayers?



He's a god who answers prayers.  He's not a genie who grants wishes.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> He's a god who answers prayers.  He's not a genie who grants wishes.



So, asking God for His direction in my life and my church is unrealistic and similar to asking a genie for wishes?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> So, asking God for His direction in my life and my church is unrealistic and similar to asking a genie for wishes?




Because of this condition you're requiring:



HawgJawl said:


> If someone on this forum can provide specific information about this issue that would be unknown to them otherwise, their message must actually be from God.



... it strikes me more as a "pipe dream" than a wish.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Because of this condition you're requiring:
> 
> 
> 
> ... it strikes me more as a "pipe dream" than a wish.



My first choice is for God to speak to me directly.  No conditions on that one.

The only reason for wanting "unknown specifics" from other folks is to weed out all the personal opinions that do not in any way involve God.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> My first choice is for God to speak to me directly.  No conditions on that one.
> 
> The only reason for wanting "unknown specifics" from other folks is to weed out all the personal opinions that do not in any way involve God.



Good luck.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

HawgJawl said:


> My first choice is for God to speak to me directly.  No conditions on that one.
> 
> The only reason for wanting "unknown specifics" from other folks is to weed out all the personal opinions that do not in any way involve God.



What does scripture say TO YOU about this issue.  Not what does scripture say to your neighbor pew sitter, nor what does your fellow believer tell you scripture says, but what you, you Hawg, gather from scripture?  You should find an answer through reading scripture, prayer and fasting.  It's the only place to go for guidance.


----------



## HawgJawl

SemperFiDawg said:


> What does scripture say TO YOU about this issue.  Not what does scripture say to your neighbor pew sitter, nor what does your fellow believer tell you scripture says, but what you, you Hawg, gather from scripture?  You should find an answer through reading scripture, prayer and fasting.  It's the only place to go for guidance.



If interpreting scripture is the only way to receive guidance from God, then there a few folks at my church who are lying, because that's not how they said they received this message.  Maybe they are lying.  I just want to be sure.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> If I felt a personal relationship with Christ, this would be much easier.  I certainly felt it in my youth.  I was convinced of it for the first half of my life.  The second half of my life has been full of questions and recently I've been unable to convince myself that the whole thing was not a product of my own mind.
> 
> I would truly love to be back in the mindset of my youth.  All it would take is for God to speak to me.



Your “time away”, or “time on the outside”, experience is not unique.  I spent 25 years out there, and would not now trade it for anything.  Completely different from yours, of course, but it is perfectly clear that God knew what He was doing.

Just one of many things gained; I am now very comfortable not knowing the rest of the story.  He has shown me that He does.


----------



## Denton

SemperFiDawg said:


> What does scripture say TO YOU about this issue.  Not what does scripture say to your neighbor pew sitter, nor what does your fellow believer tell you scripture says, but what you, you Hawg, gather from scripture?  You should find an answer through reading scripture, prayer and fasting.  It's the only place to go for guidance.



Dang, fasting is hardcore.  Not kidding at all. Props to you SFD if you do this often.  Like an indian going for a spiritquest or something! How long do you fast at a time?


----------



## centerpin fan

Denton said:


> Dang, fasting is hardcore.  Not kidding at all. Props to you SFD if you do this often.  Like an indian going for a spiritquest or something! How long do you fast at a time?



The Lenten fast is 6-7 weeks long -- no animal products.  For the remainder of the year, Wednesday and Friday are traditional fast days.


----------



## Denton

I was thinking consecutive zero food days. If your choosing the fish instead of beef that's way different. Fish Fridays are not comparable to something like Ramadan. I need to look up the Lenten fast.


----------



## Denton

Oh it's just the fancy term for lent. My bad. I've never heard of anyone giving up more than chocolate or coke.


----------



## Artfuldodger

We had a discussion on here a few months ago about the Bible being the only way the Holy Spirit communicates to us in the Modern Church. There were a couple of members that believed in that manner. Is that possible? It would certainly explain all of the different paths instead of God leading that many people on so many different paths.
Take Joseph Smith as an example. It's possible God guided him but it's quite possible he just got his signals mixed up. Maybe the scripture is more important than direct signals from God. 
This is one of those areas I'm torn between. I don't personally feel like God has lead me by talking although I have felt his presence while praying. Maybe he's just leading me to scripture. His answer might be in his scripture instead of telling me directly.  If God was directly leading all of the folks in your Church, why the division? There has to be some room for the error of man.(free will)


----------



## centerpin fan

Denton said:


> Oh it's just the fancy term for lent. My bad. I've never heard of anyone giving up more than chocolate or coke.



Coke was easy, but gettin' off the meth darn near killed me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

There might be some truth to the Holy Spirit speaking to us through the Bible. Does God always use the Holy Spirit to communicate to us?
Why all the verses stressing to read the Bible for answers?
Maybe the Holy Spirit leads us to read the scriptures. That could be how God calls. Wow, more free will.
I get confused about all of the changes between the early church and the modern church pertaining to the Holy Spirit's communication and gifts. We don't handle snakes anymore, maybe it is only through the Bible does the Holy Spirit manifest himself. Something happened or changed between then and now.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Just a few questions if you don't mind. Would not all of your experiences be in your mind? Do you believe the mind is the brain or separate from it? Where do you believe your thoughts originate?



I notice we don't get many answers to the hard questions.
I believe my mind is a part of my flesh. My thoughts originate in my mind/brain flesh.


----------



## M80

HawgJawl said:


> The Old Testament is full of messages sent by God through third parties.



Hawg I've been praying and thinking about this since my last post. Since Jesus died on the cross we have an advocate with the father. Daniel interpreted Nebuchadnezzar's dream through prayer with his three companions. He didn't even know what the king had dreamed yet God showed it to him. Old Testament people depended a lot on prophets to inform them words from God. Since Jesus died on the cross we have direct access to the throne. Now God could speak to someone else to tell you something, but seeing we have this personal access to Jesus I believe he will give you what you are looking for.


----------



## Denton

centerpin fan said:


> Coke was easy, but gettin' off the meth darn near killed me.



that just proves you live in Ga.  We all have a hard time gettin off the meth.   It's just so much fun to make in a walmart!


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> I notice we don't get many answers to the hard questions.
> I believe my mind is a part of my flesh. My thoughts originate in my mind/brain flesh.



I somehow missed those!

1) Are all experiences in your mind? Of course.
2) Do you believe the mind is the brain or separate from it? I would say the brain contains the mind, in the sense that the brain stores the information, the mind is more the way each one processes the information and can be very different depending on what someone stores.
3) Where do you believe your thoughts originate?  Many places. Many of them from self-preservation, self-interest, survival, evil, and good.  But as the mind is re-trained (renewed) by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit has the power to add God thoughts and redirect the mind to a different action or direction, provided that the mind/will is submitted to the Spirit and not the the world.  And also, you must have to knowledge or discernment of spiritual things to understand the difference.  And this is where the Scriptures and Prayer come into play!

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.


----------



## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> If interpreting scripture is the only way to receive guidance from God, then there a few folks at my church who are lying, because that's not how they said they received this message.  Maybe they are lying.  I just want to be sure.





Artfuldodger said:


> We had a discussion on here a few months ago about the Bible being the only way the Holy Spirit communicates to us in the Modern Church.



Does anyone believe that God still speaks directly to people today separate from reading scripture?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Does anyone believe that God still speaks directly to people today separate from reading scripture?



He _can_.  Does He?  I see no documentation of it -- not for the last 2,000 years anyway.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> Does anyone believe that God still speaks directly to people today separate from reading scripture?



Yes. On His terms and in His way and to His.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> Does anyone believe that God still speaks directly to people today separate from reading scripture?



Not audibly, but through the Spirit into your mind.  And it will always be motivated to bring peace or to build  faith or to strengthen trust in Him, in you and in others. And it will never violate the principles of scripture. Ever!


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> I somehow missed those!
> 
> 1) Are all experiences in your mind? Of course.
> 2) Do you believe the mind is the brain or separate from it? I would say the brain contains the mind, in the sense that the brain stores the information, the mind is more the way each one processes the information and can be very different depending on what someone stores.
> 3) Where do you believe your thoughts originate?  Many places. Many of them from self-preservation, self-interest, survival, evil, and good.  But as the mind is re-trained (renewed) by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit has the power to add God thoughts and redirect the mind to a different action or direction, provided that the mind/will is submitted to the Spirit and not the the world.  And also, you must have to knowledge or discernment of spiritual things to understand the difference.  And this is where the Scriptures and Prayer come into play!
> 
> Romans 12:2
> Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.



I've been trying to figure out how to put this into practical application;


God only speaks to me through interpretation of scripture.  

My way to verify that God actually did speak to me through scripture is to read scripture.

If my interpretation of scripture (which I think came from God) is not consistent with my "regular" interpretation of scripture, then it must not be from God.


Am I missing something here?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I've been trying to figure out how to put this into practical application;
> 
> 
> God only speaks to me through interpretation of scripture.  (Insofar as you have recognized or know)
> 
> My way to verify that God actually did speak to me through scripture is to read scripture. (An awesome place to start)
> 
> If my interpretation of scripture (which I think came from God) is not consistent with my "regular" interpretation of scripture, then it must not be from God.
> (Not sure I get this, but, I will say sometimes 'we' interpret things incorrectly and later the Holy Spirit redirects our thoughts toward His intended purpose. It's not that you 1st thoughts were wrong but the Holy Spirit provides more clarity)
> 
> Am I missing something here?



Hawg, I put some comments above in red to your thoughts.  

I have never met you personally so I am not sure what you could be 'missing', if anything. I can only say that I try to renew my own mind through scripture, prayer, accountability groups at my church, my pastor and His messages, and quality relationships with friends and family whom I trust. Further I don't come here for that purpose, but rather I am genuinely interested in helping anyone who will listen draw closer to their heavenly Father and build their own relationship with Him and help acheive that 'renewed' mind in Christ.

I hope this helps you along the path.


----------



## HawgJawl

I've been told by several people in several different ways that I should seek my answer through reading scripture and praying for the Holy Spirit to lead me in interpreting scripture to address my questions.  I've been told that I should not expect anything more than that.

If the message from God develops inside my mind as I'm interpreting scripture, how am I supposed to be able to tell the difference between a thought I created and a thought placed in my mind by God?  

I'm told that the way to verify it came from God is to make sure that the thought is consistent with scripture.  How could it not be consistent with scripture when the thought itself IS my interpretation of scripture?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

These are the scriptures that came to my mind in response to your question:

Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 
James 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change.

James 1:5-8 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God, who gives generously to all without reproach, and it will be given him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for the one who doubts is like a wave of the sea that is driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For that person must not suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

2 Timothy 3 16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Now, ask your self some questions, considering these scriptures about your own interpretation:
1) Does your thoughts promote love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?
2) Are they good? Are they perfect? Can they be thought of as from God, considering #1.
3) Have you asked for wisdom? Do you believe you can receive it? Or are you unsure and hesitant?
4) Is your interpretation vaild for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness? Will it complete you(equip you) and bring peace to your circumstance?

These are just some thoughts to help you sort out your 'voices'. I'm sure there are others but these are those that came to my mind first.  God Bless!


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> Now, ask your self some questions, considering these scriptures about your own interpretation:
> 1) Does your thoughts promote love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control?
> 2) Are they good? Are they perfect? Can they be thought of as from God, considering #1.
> 3) Have you asked for wisdom? Do you believe you can receive it? Or are you unsure and hesitant?
> 4) Is your interpretation vaild for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness? Will it complete you(equip you) and bring peace to your circumstance?
> 
> These are just some thoughts to help you sort out your 'voices'. I'm sure there are others but these are those that came to my mind first.  God Bless!



I've been thinking about the above criteria and it is a good way to weed out those "directions" which could not be from God.  

But passing this criteria only labels the "direction" as being Christ-like, consistent with scripture, etc.  It does not automatically make the "direction" a message from God.  A person can come up with an idea in his own mind that passes the above criteria.  My dilema remains, which is being able to differentiate between the Christ-like "directions" invented in my own mind and a true message from God.

An example:
While reading Timothy an idea springs forth in my mind concerning a particular widow who was very dear to me in years past but I have not seen in many years.  I have an unexplanable feeling that she is currently in need.  I clearly feel a strong motivation to do something I have never done before, which is to go visit her and see if I can help her in any way.  Because this conviction is so strong and this idea is not normal for me, I am convinced it is a message from God.

This "direction" fits the criteria above and could easily be a message from God.

When I attempt to act upon this "direction", I learn that this particular lady passed away over a year ago.  I now know that this "direction" to go visit her and help her out was NOT a message from God, although it was a good, Christ-like initiative.

If she happened to still be alive, how would I know if the "direction" was actually a message from God or a Christ-like idea I created?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> I've been thinking about the above criteria and it is a good way to weed out those "directions" which could not be from God.
> 
> But passing this criteria only labels the "direction" as being Christ-like, consistent with scripture, etc.  It does not automatically make the "direction" a message from God.  A person can come up with an idea in his own mind that passes the above criteria.  My dilema remains, which is being able to differentiate between the Christ-like "directions" invented in my own mind and a true message from God.
> 
> An example:
> While reading Timothy an idea springs forth in my mind concerning a particular widow who was very dear to me in years past but I have not seen in many years.  I have an unexplanable feeling that she is currently in need.  I clearly feel a strong motivation to do something I have never done before, which is to go visit her and see if I can help her in any way.  Because this conviction is so strong and this idea is not normal for me, I am convinced it is a message from God.
> 
> This "direction" fits the criteria above and could easily be a message from God.
> 
> When I attempt to act upon this "direction", I learn that this particular lady passed away over a year ago.  I now know that this "direction" to go visit her and help her out was NOT a message from God, although it was a good, Christ-like initiative.
> 
> If she happened to still be alive, how would I know if the "direction" was actually a message from God or a Christ-like idea I created?




This is a classic example of "paralysis by analysis".


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I've been thinking about the above criteria and it is a good way to weed out those "directions" which could not be from God.
> 
> But passing this criteria only labels the "direction" as being Christ-like, consistent with scripture, etc.  It does not automatically make the "direction" a message from God.  A person can come up with an idea in his own mind that passes the above criteria.  My dilema remains, which is being able to differentiate between the Christ-like "directions" invented in my own mind and a true message from God.
> 
> An example:
> While reading Timothy an idea springs forth in my mind concerning a particular widow who was very dear to me in years past but I have not seen in many years.  I have an unexplanable feeling that she is currently in need.  I clearly feel a strong motivation to do something I have never done before, which is to go visit her and see if I can help her in any way.  Because this conviction is so strong and this idea is not normal for me, I am convinced it is a message from God.
> 
> This "direction" fits the criteria above and could easily be a message from God.
> 
> When I attempt to act upon this "direction", I learn that this particular lady passed away over a year ago.  I now know that this "direction" to go visit her and help her out was NOT a message from God, although it was a good, Christ-like initiative.
> 
> If she happened to still be alive, how would I know if the "direction" was actually a message from God or a Christ-like idea I created?



Would it matter if someone is served by your action and/or you learn to discern God's direction in your life?

I have a plaque on my mantle from a well known servant of God.  It says, 'Obey God and leave the consequences to Him'!  So I say to you, do you trust God to take care of the consequences, even when you make an error for the good?

God has already paid the price for all of your errors! So, why should you still fear them?


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> This is a classic example of "paralysis by analysis".



"Paralysis by Analysis" is one end of this spectrum.

The other end of this spectrum could be to attribute every idea in your own head to be a direct order from God.  If every decision and action you make is ordained by God, how could you ever be wrong?

Is there nothing in between?  Is there no way to differentiate being directly led by God from simply following scripture on your own?


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> Would it matter if someone is served by your action and/or you learn to discern God's direction in your life?
> 
> I have a plaque on my mantle from a well known servant of God.  It says, 'Obey God and leave the consequences to Him'!  So I say to you, do you trust God to take care of the consequences, even when you make an error for the good?
> 
> God has already paid the price for all of your errors! So, why should you still fear them?



I believe it is important for me to be able to identify the Holy Spirit's guidance in my life and differentiate that from an idea that I hatched in my own mind.  I could be wrong about a "direction" which I created, but the Holy Spirit will not be wrong.

It could be that many of the disagreements within Christianity resulted from the inability to tell the difference.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I could be wrong about a "direction" which I created, but the Holy Spirit will not be wrong.



If you have settled your faith in Christ as your Savior and Lord, believing He died for your sins, and was ressurrected on the third day, then you have received the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance in Christ, to guide you and lead your life.

Then you will to need to learn to use the tools He provided (the Word, Prayer, Pastors, Teachers, Mentors) to assist with testing the intuition of the Holy Spirit you have within.  In time, His voice will become clear to you!

God Bless!


----------



## Denton

formula1 said:


> If you have settled your faith in Christ as your Savior and Lord, believing He died for your sins, and was ressurrected on the third day, then you have received the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance in Christ, to guide you and lead your life.
> 
> Then you will to need to learn to use the tools He provided (the Word, Prayer, Pastors, Teachers, Mentors) to assist with testing the intuition of the Holy Spirit you have within.  In time, His voice will become clear to you!
> 
> God Bless!



sooooo, make informed decisions, trust yourself to make the right and moral decision to the best of your abilities, and if it doesn't work out trust that its not your fault but that god has a greater plan for you?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

Denton said:


> sooooo, make informed decisions, trust yourself to make the right and moral decision to the best of your abilities, and if it doesn't work out trust that its not your fault but that god has a greater plan for you?



Straw man


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Denton said:


> sooooo, make informed decisions, trust yourself to make the right and moral decision to the best of your abilities, and if it doesn't work out trust that its not your fault but that god has a greater plan for you?



I trust God! I have no trust in myself!  And nothing you mention has ever be said by me!  God Bless!


----------



## Denton

SemperFiDawg said:


> Straw man





formula1 said:


> I trust God! I have no trust in myself!  And nothing you mention has ever be said by me!  God Bless!



yes, you got me.  

but, trusting yourself to understand the word of god vs. trusting that the holy spirit has instructed you correctly in how to interpret the word of god is exactly the same thing.  No one has ever sat in a classroom with the holy spirit teaching them how to read the bible,  all they have is trust that the voice inside their head is correct.


----------



## Denton

formula1 said:


> If you have settled your faith in Christ as your Savior and Lord, believing He died for your sins, and was ressurrected on the third day, then you have received the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance in Christ, to guide you and lead your life.
> 
> Then you will to need to learn to use the tools He provided (the Word, Prayer, Pastors, Teachers, Mentors) to assist with testing the intuition of the Holy Spirit you have within.  In time, His voice will become clear to you!
> 
> God Bless!



Accepting Christ as your savior and lord, believing He died for your sins, and was resurrected on the third day is no guarantee that the person in question is smart enough to read, let alone interpret the bible in the correct fashion.  God hasn't and probably won't fix stupid.  There are many god-fearing people who have done really stupid stuff.  

On one hand you are saying to trust your interpretation of the bible as the instruction of the holy spirit, on the other you are saying to trust your pastors, mentors, and teachers.  If your intuition is inconsistent with what your mentors, teachers, and pastors are saying, should you bow down to the crowd's interpretation of what is correct?  Sometimes the crowd is right but also sometimes the crowd is very wrong.  It all depends on who you surround yourself with.  

My point is that there is nothing in this thread or in our existence that removes the human element from our daily lives or religion.  We can only see out our own two eyes, we can only hear through our own two ears.  We can only understand through our own brain.  All we have is either faith or self delusion that the things that pop into our minds are from somewhere else.  If we said aliens were putting thoughts into our brain and that tin foil hats would stop that then we'd be called crazy, but if instead of aliens it was god, well then, that's another story.


----------



## formula1

Denton said:


> Accepting Christ as your savior and lord, believing He died for your sins, and was resurrected on the third day is no guarantee that the person in question is smart enough to read, let alone interpret the bible in the correct fashion.  God hasn't and probably won't fix stupid.  There are many god-fearing people who have done really stupid stuff.



But accepting Christ is enough for you to attain eternal life my putting your faith and trust in Him.  That's the beauty of it, no smarts required! Just belief and trust.  That separates alot of those who can't get beyond their own brillance.  And plenty of brilliant folks still do stupid stuff.  Simple, child-like faith is where its at. God can use folks with no brillance if they have faith.  In fact, He prefers it that way.

If the definition of one who follows Christ is 'stupid', count me in!


----------



## Denton

formula1 said:


> But accepting Christ is enough for you to attain eternal life my putting your faith and trust in Him.  That's the beauty of it, no smarts required! Just belief and trust.  That separates alot of those who can't get beyond their own brillance.  And plenty of brilliant folks still do stupid stuff.  Simple, child-like faith is where its at. God can use folks with no brillance if they have faith.  In fact, He prefers it that way.
> 
> If the definition of one who follows Christ is 'stupid', count me in!



I meant that believing in christ does not give you the keys to understanding the bible or how to deal with two groups of people, each saying the lord is leading them, who wish you to follow them.  

Yes, otherwise smart people also do stupid stuff. 

Are you trolling?  lol.  "simple, child like faith is where its at?  God can use folks with no brillance if they have faith.  In fact, He prefers it that way."

I....I rest my case.


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> If you have settled your faith in Christ as your Savior and Lord, believing He died for your sins, and was ressurrected on the third day, then you have received the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of your inheritance in Christ, to guide you and lead your life.
> 
> Then you will to need to learn to use the tools He provided (the Word, Prayer, Pastors, Teachers, Mentors) to assist with testing the intuition of the Holy Spirit you have within.  In time, His voice will become clear to you!
> 
> God Bless!



Where does this leave me with regard to the decision I have to make?

Best case scenario would have been for God to speak directly to me and provide direction.  That did not happen.  Next best would have been for God to send a specific message to me through someone on this forum.  That did not happen.

I can find scripture to support both sides of the argument and I feel no external influence when reading scripture that might help make a decision.

Should I interpret this to mean that God wants no part of this decision?  If so, would that support a belief that God did not speak to those folks in my church about this decision?


----------



## formula1

*re:*

I cannot say. Perhaps God wants to do a little more heart searching or perhaps you need to wait on Him. Some of my own decisions have taken quite some time.

I really have tried my best to help you weigh things but I cannot do it for you. But I am still praying and I believe your answers will come.


----------



## formula1

*re:*



Denton said:


> I meant that believing in christ does not give you the keys to understanding the bible or how to deal with two groups of people, each saying the lord is leading them, who wish you to follow them.
> 
> Yes, otherwise smart people also do stupid stuff.
> 
> Are you trolling?  lol.  "simple, child like faith is where its at?  God can use folks with no brillance if they have faith.  In fact, He prefers it that way."
> 
> I....I rest my case.



Believing in Christ is absolutely the key to understanding Gods word for those who believe have the Holy Spirit to help them.

The rest of your comments I will leave alone.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> Where does this leave me with regard to the decision I have to make?



Have you ask yourself from where the requirement for a decision, or any action, emanates?
Has God directed you to do something?
Do you feel worldly pressure to do something?



> Should I interpret this to mean that God wants no part of this decision?



Maybe that's the message you've been looking for.
If God wants nothing to do with it, do you?
Worth praying about?


----------



## hobbs27

Any Word From The Lord?


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> Have you ask yourself from where the requirement for a decision, or any action, emanates?
> 
> It comes from church members who profess that the "direction" came from God.  Whether or not it actually came from God is the whole point of this thread.
> 
> Has God directed you to do something?
> 
> According to a few folks, God has directed me and the entire church to do something.  I've been asking God to direct me personally or at least confirm their "direction".
> 
> Do you feel worldly pressure to do something?
> 
> Yes
> 
> Maybe that's the message you've been looking for.
> If God wants nothing to do with it, do you?
> Worth praying about?



I've been praying plenty.  If I can determine that God wants nothing to do with this decision, I feel safe assuming that God did not give that "direction" to the folks who profess that He did.  That would then make them liars, and I would want nothing to do with them.  On the other hand, if God did speak to them, I want to be a part of that.


----------



## HawgJawl

formula1 said:


> I really have tried my best to help you weigh things but I cannot do it for you. But I am still praying and I believe your answers will come.



I really do appreciate the time and effort you have spent on this.  I realize it may seem that no answer is good enough for me.  I apologize for that, but I'm reluctant to just give up on God speaking directly to me.  I'm having difficulty going from this:  



HawgJawl said:


> I am approaching this honestly and sincerely and I ask the same from you.  I am publically professing my faith that God will provide His answer.
> 
> John 14:12-14
> Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.
> 
> Mark 11:23-24
> For verily I say unto you, That whatsoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
> 
> Mark 9:23
> Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.




to this:




formula1 said:


> Then you will to need to learn to use the tools He provided (the Word, Prayer, Pastors, Teachers, Mentors) to assist with testing the intuition of the Holy Spirit you have within.  In time, His voice will become clear to you!


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> Any Word From The Lord?




No.


----------



## mtnwoman

HawgJawl said:


> Is it God's will that I join the church I currently attend or should I look elsewhere?
> 
> I'll pray about this again tonight and I have faith that God will either answer me or someone else who prays on my behalf.



I knew when I found the church were God wanted me to be. It was a 'weird' state of events that actually led me there. When I got there, I knew. It took me many years to find the place I needed to be, learning a lot along the way. But when you are fed and you are satisfied and coming away full each time you attend, you will know.  If you are unsure for any reason, I'd go somewhere else...pray that  God will lead you there.


----------



## HawgJawl

mtnwoman said:


> ...pray that  God will lead you...



I've been praying.

I'm still praying.

God has not spoken to me yet.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> I've been praying.
> 
> I'm still praying.
> 
> God has not spoken to me yet.



Cessationism is the doctrine held by some Christians which states that once the canon of Scripture (66 books) was completed, God no longer spoke personally to humans. Well, they don't want to sound THAT crass, but it is what they mean.

Have you looked into this possibility? It would explain a lot.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Cessationism is the doctrine held by some Christians which states that once the canon of Scripture (66 books) was completed, God no longer spoke personally to humans. Well, they don't want to sound THAT crass, but it is what they mean.
> 
> Have you looked into this possibility? It would explain a lot.



I think the only way I could embrace cessationism is to accept that God is no longer personally involved in anyone’s life, God no longer communicates with anyone, God no longer answers anyone’s prayers, and God no longer performs miracles.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> I think the only way I could embrace cessationism is to accept that God is no longer personally involved in anyone’s life, God no longer communicates with anyone, God no longer answers anyone’s prayers, and God no longer performs miracles.



I agree, cessationism would be total freewill.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, cessationism would be total freewill.


----------



## Denton

centerpin fan said:


>



lol


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Cessationism is the doctrine held by some Christians which states that once the canon of Scripture (66 books) was completed, God no longer spoke personally to humans. Well, they don't want to sound THAT crass, but it is what they mean.
> 
> Have you looked into this possibility? It would explain a lot.





HawgJawl said:


> I think the only way I could embrace cessationism is to accept that God is no longer personally involved in anyone’s life, God no longer communicates with anyone, God no longer answers anyone’s prayers, and God no longer performs miracles.





Artfuldodger said:


> I agree, cessationism would be total freewill.



Then again, I may be heading in that direction.


----------



## HawgJawl

If it is so difficult to articulate the difference between a message from God and a thought I create inside my own mind, then how can I be convinced that God is actually involved in my life whatsoever?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> If it is so difficult to articulate the difference between a message from God and a thought I create inside my own mind, then how can I be convinced that God is actually involved in my life whatsoever?



Even preachers get mixed signals occasionally. Benny Hinn said the Holy Spirit told him that the Trinity had nine parts. He should check out his message against the Word. That would be the first place to start. At least make sure it's biblical. Hinn later recanted and said that messaged wasn't from God but he must have read it earlier somewhere.


----------



## hummerpoo

Hawg,

During lunch today I read Psalms 13 and thought of you before completing the first verse.

David’s expression of faith, and what we now know of his future, is confirmed by an experience related in my presence.  I was in a bible study when a young woman told of her search for a husband; she had wanted one badly and had prayed, and prayed with no result.  One night, while sitting in a church service, she prayed, “God, if you want me to be single, so be it; just show me how.”   Her future husband, whom she had not met, was sitting three positions to her right on the pew (he was a farmer first, and nuclear engineer second; not what she was looking for).  Two other women, of the 7 or 8 total in the group, had similarly experienced getting their spouse after giving up on God giving them what they wanted.

After complaining to God about His lack of action, and expressing his opinion of the likely result, David expresses His faith and determination to praise God no mater what; in effect saying “You alone are God, and Your will be done.”

Scriptural support is all over the place.  A few are: Mat.6:33, 34; Joshua 1:9; Rm. 8:28; Jer. 29:11; and on, and on.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> Hawg,
> 
> During lunch today I read Psalms 13 and thought of you before completing the first verse.
> 
> David’s expression of faith, and what we now know of his future, is confirmed by an experience related in my presence.  I was in a bible study when a young woman told of her search for a husband; she had wanted one badly and had prayed, and prayed with no result.  One night, while sitting in a church service, she prayed, “God, if you want me to be single, so be it; just show me how.”   Her future husband, whom she had not met, was sitting three positions to her right on the pew (he was a farmer first, and nuclear engineer second; not what she was looking for).  Two other women, of the 7 or 8 total in the group, had similarly experienced getting their spouse after giving up on God giving them what they wanted.
> 
> After complaining to God about His lack of action, and expressing his opinion of the likely result, David expresses His faith and determination to praise God no mater what; in effect saying “You alone are God, and Your will be done.”
> 
> Scriptural support is all over the place.  A few are: Mat.6:33, 34; Joshua 1:9; Rm. 8:28; Jer. 29:11; and on, and on.



I could see myself settling for the point of view that God is actively involved in our lives and in control of everything that happens, even though He will not speak to me, answer my prayers, nor make His presence known to me in any way.

But the problem I have with accepting that point of view is that in practical application it appears identical to a world in which there is no God involved.


----------



## hummerpoo

In "practical application" I perceive, perhaps incorrectly, a construct which is not God centered.  I think my post focused on a God centered paradigm.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> In "practical application" I perceive, perhaps incorrectly, a construct which is not God centered.  I think my post focused on a God centered paradigm.



I understand what you're saying but the only difference is in the person's perspective.  A person who attributes everything to God but still has absolutely no real personal relationship with God and no perceivable evidence that God is really involved in their life has nothing more to show than a person who does not believe a God exists.


----------



## hobbs27




----------



## HawgJawl

I knew that in order for God to answer my prayer, I had to approach this with absolute belief and faith in God.  I humbled myself and did everything I know to do in order to prepare my heart to be receptive to God's voice.  I have been earnestly praying and listening intently.  

Even if I could make myself more receptive, I do not believe that to be an obstacle which God cannot overcome if He truly wanted to speak to me.


----------



## mtnwoman

HawgJawl said:


> Even if I could make myself more receptive, I do not believe that to be an obstacle which God cannot overcome if He truly wanted to speak to me.



Absolutely.

Seek and ye shall find. 

I usually only pray scripture...I say 'God in your word you said' then the scripture. God said His word will not return void.


----------



## HawgJawl

mtnwoman said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> Seek and ye shall find.
> 
> I usually only pray scripture...I say 'God in your word you said' then the scripture. God said His word will not return void.



Are you saying that you find scripture which can be applied to your situation or are you saying that after you read scripture and pray about it God literally speaks to you?


----------



## ambush80

HawgJawl said:


> Are you saying that you find scripture which can be applied to your situation or are you saying that after you read scripture and pray about it God literally speaks to you?



Like a fortune cookie?


----------



## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> Are you saying that you find scripture which can be applied to your situation or are you saying that after you read scripture and pray about it God literally speaks to you?





ambush80 said:


> Like a fortune cookie?



Or your daily horoscope?


But seriously, if there is no communication other than reading scripture and applying it to my life, what is the difference, as far as communication goes, between reading the Holy Bible and reading the Pali Canon, or the Vedas, or the Quran, or the Tanakh.  

I can read any religious text and find a way to apply it to my life.  But does that count as actual communication from the deity of that particular religion?


----------



## ambush80

HawgJawl said:


> Or your daily horoscope?
> 
> 
> But seriously, if there is no communication other than reading scripture and applying it to my life, what is the difference, as far as communication goes, between reading the Holy Bible and reading the Pali Canon, or the Vedas, or the Quran, or the Tanakh.
> 
> I can read any religious text and find a way to apply it to my life.  But does that count as actual communication from the deity of that particular religion?



All Mighty God can speak through a fortune cookie if he wants to......but how do you know?

Can He speak through a Doors song?


----------



## Israel

Can he speak through a comic strip?


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> Can he speak through a comic strip?



Why, yes. He can.


----------



## Israel

As to the Doors' song...which one?
People are Strange has often hit a chord with me in some regards.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> As to the Doors' song...which one?
> People are Strange has often hit a chord with me in some regards.



More importantly than which one, how do you know?


----------



## hobbs27

2 Samuel Chapter 9


1And David said, Is there yet any that is left of the house of Saul, that I may shew him kindness for Jonathan's sake?

2And there was of the house of Saul a servant whose name was Ziba. And when they had called him unto David, the king said unto him, Art thou Ziba? And he said, Thy servant is he.

3And the king said, Is there not yet any of the house of Saul, that I may shew the kindness of God unto him? And Ziba said unto the king, Jonathan hath yet a son, which is lame on his feet.

4And the king said unto him, Where is he? And Ziba said unto the king, Behold, he is in the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, in Lodebar.

5Then king David sent, and fetched him out of the house of Machir, the son of Ammiel, from Lodebar.

6Now when Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, was come unto David, he fell on his face, and did reverence. And David said, Mephibosheth. And he answered, Behold thy servant!

7And David said unto him, Fear not: for I will surely shew thee kindness for Jonathan thy father's sake, and will restore thee all the land of Saul thy father; and thou shalt eat bread at my table continually.

8And he bowed himself, and said, What is thy servant, that thou shouldest look upon such a dead dog as I am?

9Then the king called to Ziba, Saul's servant, and said unto him, I have given unto thy master's son all that pertained to Saul and to all his house.

10Thou therefore, and thy sons, and thy servants, shall till the land for him, and thou shalt bring in the fruits, that thy master's son may have food to eat: but Mephibosheth thy master's son shall eat bread alway at my table. Now Ziba had fifteen sons and twenty servants.

11Then said Ziba unto the king, According to all that my lord the king hath commanded his servant, so shall thy servant do. As for Mephibosheth, said the king, he shall eat at my table, as one of the king's sons.

12And Mephibosheth had a young son, whose name was Micha. And all that dwelt in the house of Ziba were servants unto Mephibosheth.

13So Mephibosheth dwelt in Jerusalem: for he did eat continually at the king's table; and was lame on both his feet.


 There is no pasture in Lo Debar... The king calls you to the table, but you cannot eat if you do not give in to His invitation,

Strong's Concordance

Lo Debar: "pastureless," a place in Gilead
Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Proper Name Location
Transliteration: Lo Debar
Phonetic Spelling: (lo deb-ar')
Short Definition: Lo-debar


----------



## HawgJawl

I am listening for His invitation.  I am praying for His invitation.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> But does that count as actual communication from the deity of that particular religion?



Is that particular religion's deity is an actual deity?  Is it God?


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Is that particular religion's deity is an actual deity?  Is it God?



I guess I would have to say that if a deity communicates with me then that deity must be real.

If my standard for what constitutes "communication from a deity" is simply to be able to apply that particular deity's religious writings to a situation in my life, then many different deities would be able to communicate with me which would in turn make them real.

I'm hoping and praying for a little more "communication" than the mere existence of scripture which seems to apply to my current situation.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> I guess I would have to say that if a deity communicates with me then that deity must be real.



Ok.  Now you have a basis to start narrowing your field.



HawgJawl said:


> If my standard for what constitutes "communication from a deity" is simply to be able to apply that particular deity's religious writings to a situation in my life, then many different deities would be able to communicate with me which would in turn make them real.



I can apply lessons from "To Kill a Mockingbird" to my life.  That does not make Atticus Finch a deity.



HawgJawl said:


> I'm hoping and praying for a little more "communication" than the mere existence of scripture which seems to apply to my current situation.



Are you letting the deity know what forms of communication you find acceptable, so that the deity will comply?


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Are you letting the deity know what forms of communication you find acceptable, so that the deity will comply?



I haven't received any communication as far as I can tell, so I haven't disregarded any communication as being unacceptable.

What different types of communication are you speaking of?


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> What different types of communication are you speaking of?



Any and all possibilities, I don't think I would limit any of them if I was dilligently seaking a response.  However, logic concludes that a deity capable of creating you is also capable of detecting your sarcasm in your attempts at communication.

Communication could be as simple as something saying "open your eyes, man."  Or, as blatant as a burning bush beside a talking donkey.

I tend to think you are wanting to hear a booming voice from the sky, or a donkey, in order to prove what is already there for you to see.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Any and all possibilities, I don't think I would limit any of them if I was dilligently seaking a response.  However, logic concludes that a deity capable of creating you is also capable of detecting your sarcasm in your attempts at communication.
> 
> I've been asking others to pray with me from the beginning of this.  In your opinion, has everyone who has been praying with me exhibited too much sarcasm in their prayers to warrant a response?
> 
> Communication could be as simple as something saying "open your eyes, man."  Or, as blatant as a burning bush beside a talking donkey.
> 
> I tend to think you are wanting to hear a booming voice from the sky, or a donkey, in order to prove what is already there for you to see.



I am simply seeking any type of communication that is real and cannot be equally claimed by any number of religions.

Let me explain why I’m looking for more than interpretation of scripture as my source of communication from God;

To Sanatani (orthodox) Hindu, such as Mahatma Gandhi, the Vedas are infallible, revealed scripture from their god.  Mahatma Gandhi was quoted as saying:

I find a solace in the Bhagavad Gita that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount.  When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavad Gita.  I find a verse here and a verse there and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies – and my life has been full of external tragedies – and if they have left no visible, no indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavad Gita.

If, while reading the Bhagavad Gita, I felt moved that the text was speaking to me and directly related to my current situation in some inexplicable way, would you consider that to be communication from Brahma?


----------



## JB0704

First, let's be honest, this whole thread is an exercise in sarcasm.  I may be off base, but, it seems apparent you are trying to make a point but getting believers to give you a particular response.

If you are serious, there are TONS of books written on this subject.  Endless amounts of scripture to give you some direction.  Here's one to start with: Psalms 66:18.  That's a starting place.

A Christian will say it begins with the place you are when you ask, not physically, but spiritually.  



HawgJawl said:


> I am simply seeking any type of communication that is real and cannot be equally claimed by any number of religions.



Why?  Wouldn't you prefer communication from a deity regardless of religion?



HawgJawl said:


> If, while reading the Bhagavad Gita, I felt moved that the text was speaking to me and directly related to my current situation in some inexplicable way, would you consider that to be communication from Brahma?



Let's say the text did speak directly to you, and we confirmed that communication was straight from God.  Then, it can be safely assumed that a God who created you can use whatever form of communication he chooses.

And we are back to where we started.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> First, let's be honest, this whole thread is an exercise in sarcasm.  I may be off base, but, it seems apparent you are trying to make a point but getting believers to give you a particular response.
> 
> 
> A Christian will say it begins with the place you are when you ask, not physically, but spiritually.



You're not the first person to question my sincerity in this.  What is posted on this forum is but a tiny portion of the conversations I have engaged in with other Christians regarding this issue.  There have been a few private messages and many conversations outside this forum.

Many people who were initially suspicious of my intentions and sincerity in this, decided to pray about it first to ask God about my intentions and if God wanted them to try to assist me in this.

I find it interesting that you didn't think of prayer as the first and best source for the answer to your suspicion of me.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> You're not the first person to question my sincerity in this.  What is posted on this forum is but a tiny portion of the conversations I have engaged in with other Christians regarding this issue.  There have been a few private messages and many conversations outside this forum.
> 
> Many people who were initially suspicious of my intentions and sincerity in this, decided to pray about it first to ask God about my intentions and if God wanted them to try to assist me in this.




You are seeking a divine answer as to whether or not animals evolved from lower forms of life.  First, evolution is like a hand grenade in this forum.  Second, does it have eternal consequence one way or the other (assuming eternity exists)?  That alone is what raised a few flags.

I enjoy intelligent discussion with you guys.  I learn a lot, and have been able to establish a good line of communication with folks who disagree with me on a whole lot of stuff.  I would be more than happy to engage in such discussion with you, if that is your intention.

For those reasons, I posted a few other questions in my last response that I will be more than happy to cover if you like.



HawgJawl said:


> I find it interesting that you didn't think of prayer as the first and best source for the answer to your suspicion of me.



Why?


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> You are seeking a divine answer as to whether or not animals evolved from lower forms of life.  First, evolution is like a hand grenade in this forum.  Second, does it have eternal consequence one way or the other (assuming eternity exists)?  That alone is what raised a few flags.
> 
> I enjoy intelligent discussion with you guys.  I learn a lot, and have been able to establish a good line of communication with folks who disagree with me on a whole lot of stuff.  I would be more than happy to engage in such discussion with you, if that is your intention.
> 
> For those reasons, I posted a few other questions in my last response that I will be more than happy to cover if you like.
> 
> 
> 
> Why?



Oh.  I see now.
It's obvious now that you have not read this entire thread.  The initial question about evolution was solely intended to weed out those who were unable to separate their own personal opinion from an answer received in prayer.  The real question was asked after it became obvious that no one on this forum was able to do that.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> Oh.  I see now.
> It's obvious now that you have not read this entire thread.  The initial question about evolution was solely intended to weed out those who were unable to separate their own personal opinion from an answer received in prayer.  The real question was asked after it became obvious that no one on this forum was able to do that.



Correct.  I read post #2, and moved on.  However, my instincts were correct, in that, you used that to get a specific reaction from Christians.

I would venture a guess that most folks in here would trust God if they believed God told them life evolved from lower forms.  Heck, I assume about half of them already believe so anyways but don't speak of it much given the volatility of the subject amongst believers (nobody likes being told they don't believe the Bible correctly).  There's probably more than a few who believe God gives plenty of answers in nature (this is Biblical) that do not require serious soul searching to discover......these answers are there for the believer and atheists/agnostics alike.

As before, I left several questions on the thread which opened the door to communication, they are there.  I also gave a a verse which is a starting point.  Not sure what else the exercise is if it isn't for you to get Christians to admit something you have already determined to be so.


----------



## JB0704

Ok, I read the entire thread.  

So, a "christian who has lost his faith" is having issues with church, and wants disengaged folks to provide an answer from God to his dillemma without knowing the details in such a way that can only be explained as God communicating.

Is that a decent summary?

Did you start your quest with Psalms 66:18?

I am pleased to read all the helpful and interested responses in this thread by well intentioned people.


----------



## Israel

"I used to be a christian"
"I have lost my faith"
"I used to seek the Lord"
I am not disposed to debate whether one can "lose" their salvation, or, if so, one who is now claiming to be outside the faith presently, means therefore they never were of that household.
The loss of the "sense" of fellowship over a time that results in denial of the faith is not a "loss" of faith, nor a rethinking of prior commitments...it is a path of disobedience _chosen_.
At some point, in some place, at some time, one was made aware of something with which they would not "go along". Fine, that's between oneself and the Lord.
But the dragging of the anticipation now that accompanies such, the unwelcome waiting for the "other shoe to drop"...that is always the companion of faithlessness (and the lack of keeping faith with God) is not ameliorated (as one may fervently hope) by getting others to doubt, question, or in any other way, submit to a subversion of their faith, in their desire to be of some comfort... by either clever tactics, nor a feigned sincerity of seeking.

I have every confidence of this. may you. God is letting you know he's with you. How you meet him will determine whether that experience will _feel like he is for you._


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Ok, I read the entire thread.
> 
> So, a "christian who has lost his faith" is having issues with church, and wants disengaged folks to provide an answer from God to his dillemma without knowing the details in such a way that can only be explained as God communicating.
> 
> Is that a decent summary?
> 
> Did you start your quest with Psalms 66:18?
> 
> I am pleased to read all the helpful and interested responses in this thread by well intentioned people.



Primarily, I am wanting God to speak to me.  I am honestly seeking communication with God and am doing all I know to do to prepare my heart to be receptive to God.

I am also asking others to pray with me and ask God to relay communication through them, in case my heart is not "in the right place".  Many people, not just on this forum, have almost immediately made the excuse that God hasn't spoken to me because of the condition of my heart.  Many of these people profess to speak with God daily, therefore their hearts must be "right" so I ask them to include this one question for me into their daily conversation with God.

The reason I don't want to give any more details is that I have all the personal opinion I can handle from people intimately involved in the problem.  I would like a method to separate personal opinion from divine revelation.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Primarily, I am wanting God to speak to me.



I want Kim Kardashian to speak to me.  You and I seem to be having similar luck.


----------



## hobbs27

Israel said:


> "I used to be a christian"
> "I have lost my faith"
> "I used to seek the Lord"
> I am not disposed to debate whether one can "lose" their salvation, or, if so, one who is now claiming to be outside the faith presently, means therefore they never were of that household.
> The loss of the "sense" of fellowship over a time that results in denial of the faith is not a "loss" of faith, nor a rethinking of prior commitments...it is a path of disobedience _chosen_.
> At some point, in some place, at some time, one was made aware of something with which they would not "go along". Fine, that's between oneself and the Lord.
> But the dragging of the anticipation now that accompanies such, the unwelcome waiting for the "other shoe to drop"...that is always the companion of faithlessness (and the lack of keeping faith with God) is not ameliorated (as one may fervently hope) by getting others to doubt, question, or in any other way, submit to a subversion of their faith, in their desire to be of some comfort... by either clever tactics, nor a feigned sincerity of seeking.
> 
> I have every confidence of this. may you. God is letting you know he's with you. How you meet him will determine whether that experience will _feel like he is for you._



Amen!

 If my wife were to stop speaking with me, it would not be productive for me tell her " hey I demand you speak to me". 

 Or go to her friends and ask them if she will speak to me through them... Nope , it wouldn't work. First I would have to think back to the offense, then go to her and ask for forgiveness earnestly. Maybe then our relationship could begin to repair itself.  

 Also , I wouldn't expect her to speak to me as she does now, before we ever met.


----------



## HawgJawl

I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.  I'm asking for the standard features of the base model.

79% of Evangelical Christians report having a personal relationship with God.

89% report feeling God's presence in the form of a deep sense of spiritual peace and well-being.

88% believe that miracles still occur today just as they did in ancient times.

84% report receiving a definite answer to a specific prayer request.

I have repented and asked for forgiveness for my many sins.  I have humbled myself before God and sincerely asked Him to make His presence known to me.  I have been doing this daily for over a month. 

Again, I'm not asking for a miraculous booming voice from the sky.  I'm asking for what is supposed to be included in the basic package.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> 79% of Evangelical Christians report having a personal relationship with God.
> 
> 89% report feeling God's presence in the form of a deep sense of spiritual peace and well-being.
> 
> 88% believe that miracles still occur today just as they did in ancient times.
> 
> 84% report receiving a definite answer to a specific prayer request.




As long as it's not 100%, you have nothing to worry about.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not asking for anything unreasonable.  I'm asking for the standard features of the base model.
> 
> 79% of Evangelical Christians report having a personal relationship with God.
> 
> 89% report feeling God's presence in the form of a deep sense of spiritual peace and well-being.
> 
> 88% believe that miracles still occur today just as they did in ancient times.
> 
> 84% report receiving a definite answer to a specific prayer request.
> 
> I have repented and asked for forgiveness for my many sins.  I have humbled myself before God and sincerely asked Him to make His presence known to me.  I have been doing this daily for over a month.
> 
> Again, I'm not asking for a miraculous booming voice from the sky.  I'm asking for what is supposed to be included in the basic package.



You can begin by circling back a few posts to Israel's comments.  

In you efforts to communicate with the almighty, did you convince yourself he exists?


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> As long as it's not 100%, you have nothing to worry about.



Those percentages are from the group of folks who report being Evangelical Christians.

The percentage could easily be 100% of "REAL" Christians.

The majority of Jews surveyed view God as being impersonal.  But the majority of Evangelical Christians I know hold views consistent with the beliefs listed above.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> You can begin by circling back a few posts to Israel's comments.
> 
> In you efforts to communicate with the almighty, did you convince yourself he exists?



I do believe God exists and I've been talking to Him daily, albeit a one-way conversation so far.


----------



## Artfuldodger

It would be interesting to see how each person views God. Carl Sagan views God as a force of nature or the thing that makes the "laws of nature." Some see God controlling every aspect of everything. 
I see God as controlling only what he wants to control. I see God as spiritual. I see God as personal in having feelings and emotions. How or what we believe God is will affect how we see how he answers our prayers and communicates.  Some see the Holy Spirit as a guide while others see him only manifesting as the Bible. 
Our beliefs will affect how we communicate with God and what we believe God is communicating to us. Looking back at the many threads, we see where people are quick to say, "God did not tell you that." "That didn't come from God." Well I guess the individual thought it did. So how do you really know it was from God other than comparing it to scripture? Even then it gets interpreted wrong.
Why would God communicate with you and then make you interpret it wrong. Much is because of free will. Could my interpretations jeopardize my salvation? Where is my guided communication? 
I'm reminded of when people asked Jesus a question, he answered with a question. Perhaps God does this too. 
Spirits speak to spirits. Maybe God speaks to our spiritual selves and sometimes we just don't hear or maybe we just ignore.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> I have repented and asked for forgiveness for my many sins.  I have humbled myself before God and sincerely asked Him to make His presence known to me.  I have been doing this daily for over a month.





HawgJawl said:


> I do believe God exists and I've been talking to Him daily, albeit a one-way conversation so far.



Have you yet come to the point that you can sincerely praise God for the trial with which He has blessed you? (Rm 5:1-5)(Jam 1:2-12)

Have you come to trust that He alone knows when His purpose in this trial has been fulfilled?

>>> "so far" rings of real hope<<<


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ...Spirits speak to spirits. Maybe God speaks to our spiritual selves and sometimes we just don't hear or maybe we just ignore.



Could this be the distinction?

Gal 5:
 16.  But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
 17.  For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
 18.  But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> Have you yet come to the point that you can sincerely praise God for the trial with which He has blessed you? (Rm 5:1-5)(Jam 1:2-12)
> 
> Have you come to trust that He alone knows when His purpose in this trial has been fulfilled?
> 
> >>> "so far" rings of real hope<<<


When I look at all the encouragements, the "fallout" and collateral edifications coming from Hawg's trial through all you brothers and sister, I also have a confidence.

Hawg, I have been at times very direct to the point of sternness, perhaps. And I cannot say the way the Lord will lead you is the way in which I believe he has made himself known to me. Or the ways he still does.
This is always a matter of faith...as ephemeral and seemingly ethereal as that word sounds...we perhaps, come to discover it is what REAL is...what eternal is of, not a mind game, not a trick, not an "invisible" tool while others things shout "I am real, I am tangible, I am reliable". And we see, it's not really a tool at all, to be used...but... it is used, not just some_thing_ "in Christ" that is ours, while it is in Christ and ours...something obviously I am too stupid to define.

Whether this is a comfort to you, as it now is to me, God knows.

Jesus said, in regards to faith, and a corn seed planted...it grows...you wake, you sleep, you wake, you sleep, and it grows..._and you know not how._

While you pray "to hear", pray also for me.


----------



## hummerpoo

Israel said:


> When I look at all the encouragements, the "fallout" and collateral edifications coming from Hawg's trial through all you brothers and sister, I also have a confidence.
> 
> Hawg, I have been at times very direct to the point of sternness, perhaps. And I cannot say the way the Lord will lead you is the way in which I believe he has made himself known to me. Or the ways he still does.
> This is always a matter of faith...as ephemeral and seemingly ethereal as that word sounds...we perhaps, come to discover it is what REAL is...what eternal is of, not a mind game, not a trick, not an "invisible" tool while others things shout "I am real, I am tangible, I am reliable". And we see, it's not really a tool at all, to be used...but... it is used, not just some_thing_ "in Christ" that is ours, while it is in Christ and ours...something obviously I am too stupid to define.
> 
> Whether this is a comfort to you, as it now is to me, God knows.
> 
> Jesus said, in regards to faith, and a corn seed planted...it grows...you wake, you sleep, you wake, you sleep, and it grows..._and you know not how._
> 
> While you pray "to hear", pray also for me.



Every day of time, that I experience, further convinces me that reality is not there to be known.

May all know Him who is real.


----------



## 04ctd

Israel said:


> And I cannot say the way the Lord will lead you is the way in which I believe he has made himself known to me.
> While you pray "to hear", pray also for me.



been wandering thru the posts on here. 

of course, last week, teaching a lesson, one kid goes "Has GOD ever spoken TO YOU"

i looked at her...and said "YES"

and she said why YOU.

i said "it won't because of me...I am not studied up, read up, prayed up enough for God to speak me.....He spoke to me because someone who is righteous, who probably has NO SIN in their life, and has learned to love, to forgive, and is PRAYED UP...who was praying to God for somebody to DO something."

so I did it.  but it was not about me, not thru me, and really did not concern me. it took one evening of my life.

so IDK. 

just say "here am I, send me..." when He does call you.

been praying for you HJ


----------



## hobbs27

It aint only praying, its believing!


----------



## HawgJawl

I've been trying to get back to the state of mind I had when I was first saved.  I've been trying to concentrate on faith and belief and block out any thoughts contrary to that.  

It seems like relatively little was required of me for salvation, but much more is being required of me now.


----------



## Israel

To want God...is to have God.


----------



## HawgJawl

Israel said:


> To want God...is to have God.



That's what I thought too.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> .....but much more is being required of me now.



Could you please elaborate?


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> That's what I thought too.


Dilated and effaced?


----------



## Ruger#3

One should pray regularly when not in need. In this way you will come to recognize Gods voice before your in the midst turbulence or need.

God Bless and guide you sir.

"Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually."

1 Chronicles 16:11


----------



## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> It seems like relatively little was required of me for salvation, but much more is being required of me now.





JB0704 said:


> Could you please elaborate?



It seemed like I didn't have to change much or travel far in order to be saved.  It seems like God is much further from me now.

I don't know if more of me is required now or if I have further to travel in order to get back to God?  

It seemed like all I had to do to be saved was to ask and God came to me.     But that doesn't seem to be the case now.  It seems like I now have to go to God.  Maybe all I have to do is meet Him half way and the distance is much farther than I realize.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> It seemed like I didn't have to change much or travel far in order to be saved.  It seems like God is much further from me now.



Isn't that based on perspective?  There are two ways of looking at this.....if you were initially chosen God, then where you are is by God's design.  If you chose to get to where you are, then the distance is by your design.

Either way, I don't see how the distance is mroe now than before.  It's either God's choice or yours.   On one hand, you have no say in it anyway, so there are no additional requirements, on the other, it's really your call, and you are making things much mroe difficult than they have to be.




HawgJawl said:


> It seemed like all I had to do to be saved was to ask and God came to me.     But that doesn't seem to be the case now.  It seems like I now have to go to God.



Didn't you go to God in the first sentence as well?



HawgJawl said:


> Maybe all I have to do is meet Him half way and the distance is much farther than I realize.



God's parameters didn't change.  Yours did.


----------



## HawgJawl

I believe that God sent His Son Jesus to die as a perfect sacrifice for my sins.  I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior many years ago.  I have repented of my sins and have rededicated my life to Christ.  I have removed as many obstacles as I can from my life that could make me less receptive to God's direction.  I want to relinquish my illusion of control of my life and accept God's divine plan for me.  I pray many times daily and have faith that God will eventually answer.  

What more is needed?


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> I believe that God sent His Son Jesus to die as a perfect sacrifice for my sins.  I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior many years ago.  I have repented of my sins and have rededicated my life to Christ.  I have removed as many obstacles as I can from my life that could make me less receptive to God's direction.  I want to relinquish my illusion of control of my life and accept God's divine plan for me.  I pray many times daily and have faith that God will eventually answer.
> 
> What more is needed?



You have done all these things, there is only one more thing to do. Just let God happen. You can't force communication but He can force patience on us.

 Other than that you may want to visit that little church in Gainesville I mentioned once before. They are in revival this week thru Wednesday night.... starts at 7:00 pm and I guarantee you will hear a word from the Lord there


----------



## Israel

I know I said the Lord may not lead you as he led me.
Got a sec?

I "got saved"..."came forward", blubbered like a baby, confessing Jesus as Lord in 1968. I was 17. Not long after that, my dad died, I'd laid hands on him, prayed as I thought I should...some told me it was a test. One told me my lack of fervor afterwards was a result of me "flunking the test". The first "love of my life" that had brought me to those meetings left...and Jesus went on the backburner. 
Off to college and fornication. Flunked out in preference of laying about with a girl. Blew a full ride scholarship, didn't care. After all, I was "smart"...and didn't need college. Married the girl, my first, and only to that time. Had a daughter. Then, wife and daughter...gone. My being smart had left me working in factories, farms, setting up mobile homes, barely breaking 100$ a week. Seems no one wanted to pay me for just being smart. Or, perhaps I was being paid in perfect accordance with my wisdom. Looking back, overpaid.
It was "rough" on the girl, to say the least. Smart people drag a lot of resentments and insecurities when they feel under appreciated.
The world stopped being what I thought it was supposed to be, and pretty well was for a very brief time...my oyster. Being the dramatic sort, I'd always considered the military a final resort before suicide...so with many promises of reuniting (by her) with my wife...off I went. Air Force was as good to me as it could be. 
Wife declined to join me. Ouch.
Enjoyed having extra money in my pockets...but still somewhat resenting salutes to those I usually considered my intellectual inferiors..."refound" Jesus looking for me, got court martialed, honorable discharge...off to Nursing School.
Met a separated woman, shacked up, we both finalized divorces, and married. Two stepchildren in the mix, then our own daughter.
Didn't take long for my beast to manifest...second wife left.

It was here I discovered what knees are for. This time I was broken...but knew it. Inside. Rotten. (But still with enough "self preservation" to seek God to cut a deal...get me my wife and baby back) I pled, I wept, I saw puddles of snot on the carpet under me. But...Jesus had my attention...riveted, really...even if my motives were still somewhat mixed.
Now...all that to get here.
I had never "heard" the Lord speak to me in my heart, at least where I knew, and could testify it was taking place. 
Then, one evening...shuffling around a large house with a mortgage I could barely pay, waiting for a wife that was not going to return...I heard this "To him who has, more shall be given, but to him who has not, even that which he thinks he has, shall be taken from him"
I won't get into "audible" versus internal voice...cause as you probably already know...all "hearing" takes place internally, in the mind. As does sight.

I remember the thrill of it! The Lord was speaking to me! It was me to a tee. He didn't say This is you...to him who has not...he didn't say "I hate to tell you this"...he simply spoke what was spoken. And I knew in an instant, not understanding all the implications...I was the man who "has not". I was the bluffer, I was the one playing at life with an empty hand...but with cleverness convincing others I had something! Till they found out...and then the sting of being "called". But even in that, the exposure to myself, of myself, and not in a favorable light...really meant nothing! I had heard the Lord! That was all that mattered to me.

I could tell you about idolizing the creature and neglecting the Creator, about venery, about the flesh, about lusts, about being smart in one's own eyes,  (and all the attendant static they produce) about some of the many things I have learned since that evening in 1983. But, that's my road.

I can't say I waited from 1968 till then to hear his voice, I was very very busy, elsewhere. That's why I have confidence...not because I even know my motives for "having" confidence are pure...but he has convinced me...he is, regardless.

I am not saying you need to be broken "enough"...or more, or anything, really. I suppose what I am saying is of little use to you unless the sympathy aroused in me is from the Lord.
You will hear him.
Yes. And after that...you may even discover...it has been far more often than you ever could have imagined.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> What more is needed?



Nothing.  

But, I think it's lent.  Give something up if it'll make ya feel better about things.  Or kill a goat.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> It seemed like I didn't have to change much or travel far in order to be saved.  It seems like God is much further from me now.
> 
> I don't know if more of me is required now or if I have further to travel in order to get back to God?
> 
> It seemed like all I had to do to be saved was to ask and God came to me.     But that doesn't seem to be the case now.  It seems like I now have to go to God.  Maybe all I have to do is meet Him half way and the distance is much farther than I realize.



I went back and read some of your posts from a mere six weeks ago.
Surely, these musings did not come from the same man.




HawgJawl said:


> I believe that God sent His Son Jesus to die as a perfect sacrifice for my sins.  I accepted Jesus as my personal Savior many years ago.  I have repented of my sins and have rededicated my life to Christ.  I have removed as many obstacles as I can from my life that could make me less receptive to God's direction.  I want to relinquish my illusion of control of my life and accept God's divine plan for me.  I pray many times daily and have faith that God will eventually answer.
> 
> What more is needed?



I don't know, but I trust that God will tell you in His perfect time (as He has many others).


----------



## HawgJawl

I continue to pray, repent, and separate myself from worldly desires which could cause disobedience to God.  I try to demonstrate my love for Christ through service to others with a joyful attitude.  I have submerged myself in scripture, hoping to feel God’s presence. 

John 14:15-21
“If you love me, keep my commands.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.  The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.  Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me.  Because I live, you also will live.  On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.  Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.  The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I continue to pray, repent, and separate myself from worldly desires which could cause disobedience to God.  I try to demonstrate my love for Christ through service to others with a joyful attitude.  I have submerged myself in scripture, hoping to feel God’s presence.
> 
> John 14:15-21
> “If you love me, keep my commands.  And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— the Spirit of truth.  The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.  Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me.  Because I live, you also will live.  On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.  Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me.  The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.”



HJ,

Just a quick note to let you know that I am still praying with you. God Bless and I hope this scripture means something to you!

Psalm 27:14 Wait for the Lord; be strong, and let your heart take courage; wait for the Lord!


----------



## hobbs27

Im heading over to revival meeting tonight and really excited to hear a word from the Lord!


----------



## hobbs27

The Lord needs participators not spectators.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> The Lord needs participators not spectators.



I'm still hopeful He will tell me that Himself along with exactly what He wants me to do.  I'll do whatever He asks.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> I'm still hopeful He will tell me that Himself along with exactly what He wants me to do.  I'll do whatever He asks.



The whole world would benefit from the preaching I heard and the spirit I felt last night. HJ, if you aren't in communion right now with God...Go out and seek Him! If you get nothing from the church you're going to then go to others. Gods spirit isn't any weaker now that it ever has been.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> Gods spirit isn't any weaker now that it ever has been.



I have faith that you are correct and that God will make His presence known to me, but so far, nothing.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> I have faith that you are correct and that God will make His presence known to me, but so far, nothing.



Then try this....



> *James 2:14 *What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? *15* Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. *16* If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? *17* In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Then try this....



I try to embrace every opportunity to be charitable.  For the past 26 years, a good portion of my life has been dedicated to public service.  I currently serve as Vice President of a not-for-profit, charitable organization.  We could all do much more, but I always try to live a Christ-like life, even through periods when I question the validity of Christianity.


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I try to embrace every opportunity to be charitable.  For the past 26 years, a good portion of my life has been dedicated to public service.  I currently serve as Vice President of a not-for-profit, charitable organization.  We could all do much more, but I always try to live a Christ-like life, even through periods when I question the validity of Christianity.



I think there is some truth (for yourself) in what you yourself have said here.  "I try to live Christ-like,..." and "periods when I question the validiy of Christianity."

I will agree with you that Christianity does not always appear as angelic, yet it is not made for angels but it is made for people. If we measure it against the dos and don'ts of scripture--it is perhaps not very handsome at all.

However, there is something that makes up for this seemingly disheveled nonsense that can appear as Christianity especially exposed for an overly accusatory mindset regards scripture. 


Jesus is reported to have said, "learn of me". That you try to live Christ-like, your well on your way to this learning like most of Christianity is hopefully trying to do as well.

While we can all use scripture to shoot each other down, "learning of Christ" shoots all of us up.

My hope is that one day Jesus will not need to say much to you, yet you will know He is there-- like good friends that love each other in quiet and gentle fellowship.


----------



## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> I think there is some truth (for yourself) in what you yourself have said here.  "I try to live Christ-like,..." and "periods when I question the validiy of Christianity."
> 
> I will agree with you that Christianity does not always appear as angelic, yet it is not made for angels but it is made for people. If we measure it against the dos and don'ts of scripture--it is perhaps not very handsome at all.
> 
> However, there is something that makes up for this seemingly disheveled nonsense that can appear as Christianity especially exposed for an overly accusatory mindset regards scripture.
> 
> 
> Jesus is reported to have said, "learn of me". That you try to live Christ-like, your well on your way to this learning like most of Christianity is hopefully trying to do as well.
> 
> While we can all use scripture to shoot each other down, "learning of Christ" shoots all of us up.
> 
> My hope is that one day Jesus will not need to say much to you, yet you will know He is there-- like good friends that love each other in quiet and gentle fellowship.



In awe of the wisdom written here. Thanks for that.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> I try to embrace every opportunity to be charitable.  For the past 26 years, a good portion of my life has been dedicated to public service.  I currently serve as Vice President of a not-for-profit, charitable organization.  We could all do much more, but I always try to live a Christ-like life, even through periods when I question the validity of Christianity.



I am happy so many in here are taking the opportunity to provide insight for you in this exercise and taking this thread seriously.  

But, the part in red.......where are you with that now?  I had one such period in my life, and it lasted several years.  Once the question was settled, it was settled.  But, everybody is different.

Have you found your faith between now and the time you claimed to have lost your faith (just a few months back)?  That's really why I am convinced this entire thread is an exercise in you making a point.   Wouldn't it be a lot easier to come out and say what your getting at?


----------



## gordon 2

When a man looses an arm, I can be his arm until he learns to live with but one arm.

When a women lives yet having lost here mind, from a stroke perhaps, I can be her mind according to her will when her mind was well, not my mind, not my will, but her's when they were whole.

If a man looses his two legs I can walk for him until he accepts is disability and learns to be mobile in other ways. I can fetch for him. I can serve him his meals. I can stand by as he learns to walk again on prosthetic limbs.

And when a woman looses her speech, is unable to talk, I can talk for her until she is over her upset and finds, with the help of others, other ways to express herself.

When a man's heart does not supply blood flow sufficient that his limbs swell up and  he becomes immobile unable to toilet himself, I can help him.

When a mother with bipolar needs positive assessments and encouragement regards her condition and her interactions with the people she values dearly, I can help her.

When someone is severely depressed, I can look out for them and their family while they recover.

And I can help many strangers this way.

But when a man who once believed in God, who perhaps once loved God, does not believe in God no more, or has lost Him, and especially when that man is a very intelligent man, with the the kind of intelligence that seen as a gift cannot be denied, or even inherited respected,  what can I give him? How can I comfort?

Is all of my right arm, flesh and bone and circulation and articulation, given of any worth? My two eyes, my two legs, my trained assessment skills, my back, all the tricks I can muster to give an appetite to one who has not one anymore, but who is not ready to die...are all these, and all of my self given, equal to what is missing and of vital or of necessary need to one who does not "believe" in God?

Is faith a vital  need of life to someone who says it is not vital?-- this faith which was and is no longer and no longer vital to taking a breath? Is breathing effective?-- Not vital to expiration? Not to inspiration? Circulation? Not vital to giving one's human breath to the human life surrounding an individual, his family, his co-workers, his children, his community, his nation, his world?

There is a love greater than what I can give by myself and my abilities, to a man who has lost God, so it is to you I pray my Love. Help us, we can't make it alone. Help us. Give us the breath that you give me--through your Son. It is not much Love, I come begging, but for now it is all I have.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Have you found your faith between now and the time you claimed to have lost your faith (just a few months back)?  That's really why I am convinced this entire thread is an exercise in you making a point.   Wouldn't it be a lot easier to come out and say what your getting at?



How long does it take for a person to come to God?  What is an appropriate length of time?

Ask God about my sincerity.  God knows.  Ask God if I am honestly seeking a relationship with Him.  I'm not being sarcastic.  I want you to ask God and report back what God tells you regarding this.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> How long does it take for a person to come to God?  What is an appropriate length of time?



From the point of sincerity, not long at all.  Give it a shot.



HawgJawl said:


> Ask God about my sincerity.  God knows.  Ask God if I am honestly seeking a relationship with Him.  I'm not being sarcastic.  I want you to ask God and report back what God tells you regarding this.



I recon God already filled me in, and I've been telling you for a while now.  But, you don't have to be a Christian to know what this thread is about.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> I recon God already filled me in, and I've been telling you for a while now.  But, you don't have to be a Christian to know what this thread is about.



I believe that there is only one God, and I believe that you and I are praying to the same God, so please be very specific and tell me exactly what God said to you concerning my sincerity.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> I believe that there is only one God, and I believe that you and I are praying to the same God, so please be very specific and tell me exactly what God said to you concerning my sincerity.



Sure!

I opened your thread a while back when you started it, and, given the fact that I can remember many exchanges you and I had several years ago, as well as recently after your extended hiatus from these forums, I was curious as to what you had to say.

So, I read through the OP, then the 2nd post, and that was when a still, small voice in my head said to me......

Horse apples.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Sure!
> 
> I opened your thread a while back when you started it, and, given the fact that I can remember many exchanges you and I had several years ago, as well as recently after your extended hiatus from these forums, I was curious as to what you had to say.
> 
> So, I read through the OP, then the 2nd post, and that was when a still, small voice in my head said to me......
> 
> Horse apples.



Are you certain that it was God who said "Horse Apples" to you as opposed to your own mind generating that opinion.

It's not uncommon for people to believe that God has instructed them to do something when in fact the thought was generated by their own mind.  This is more easily recognized when the instruction is clearly against scripture, such as a terrorist attack.

The reason this is important is because I know for certain that I am honestly seeking God's voice.  But you don't have to believe me.  There are others who have prayed to God concerning my sincerity and have received a different answer from God.  Are you certain that God told you this?


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> Are you certain that it was God who said "Horse Apples" to you as opposed to your own mind generating that opinion.



I wouldn't have been so confident except it was complete with accompaniment:


----------



## HawgJawl

Since God has not yet spoken to me directly, but He reportedly speaks to you "complete with accompaniment", would you please ask Him for the answer to my current dilemma?



HawgJawl said:


> The less you know about what is going on, the better, as your answer will be less influenced by your personal opinion on the matter.
> 
> My first question, which no one seemed to like, was just a starting point.  It was an attempt to weed out people who are unable to separate their own opinion from God's message.
> 
> I have a portion of the church who profess that God has spoken to them and He is leading them in a new direction.
> 
> I have a portion of the church who are skeptical of this "message from God" and view this new direction as a man-made idea which they are opposed to.
> 
> The rest of the church, including myself, are just spectators.
> 
> I have people relaying God's will for me which is not surprisingly identical to their own view on the matter.
> 
> That is why I am asking you to help pray with me over this issue.  I obviously do not want to present you with all the information so that you can make a determination of what you would do.  I have plenty of that already.  God knows everything that is going on.





HawgJawl said:


> Just like so many different denominations can justify their existence with scripture, so can both sides in this situation.
> 
> I can't completely trust any of the folks who are trying to convince me to support their position because I can never really know if their own personal opinion is the driving force or if it is God.  They all seem to have an agenda.  Maybe they are really being led by God.  If so, I wish He would speak to me.  If not, I hope He will relay a message to me through a few on this forum.
> 
> I can more readily trust the word of someone who is not connected with this in any way, especially if they are given information from God that they would otherwise have no way of knowing.
> 
> I hope that makes sense.





HawgJawl said:


> I understand what you're saying and I appreciate your post.
> 
> Let me dig a little deeper toward the core of my question.
> 
> Is this change really being led by God?
> 
> If it is, I need to be a part of it.  If it is not, I do not need to be a part of it.  I don't want to concentrate on what I want or what feels right to me.  If this change in direction is God's will, then what I personally think about it should not matter.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> would you please ask Him for the answer to my current dilemma?



What are your parameters for knowing whether or not I'm telling the truth, and discerning whether or not I am actually hearing from God?


----------



## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> Since God has not yet spoken to me directly, but He reportedly speaks to you "complete with accompaniment", would you please ask Him for the answer to my current dilemma?



Why even bother to ask the dilemma questions on a christian forum? I mean, as you say... the outlook is biased from the get go?

Ok, then if scripture can be used as you say to justify two divergent spiritual communities...you must look outside of scripture for a resolution.

Do you know of any spiritual community that has more than scripture to resolve dilemma such as yours?

So God tells me that first off you must address your prayers to God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that God is a community outside of scripture. So you must address prayers in this way.

Now as for me, you can accuse me of being to one camp vs another and that what God tells me is just as valid as the other, which is just another way of saying will the real God please stand up. However, ask yourself, although other communities might know God, do they know Him and his family? in the same manner that you knew your spouse better for getting to know her family?

If a Jehovah's Witness came to your door today with his family, and that person who knocked at your door, let them speak, would you know the person who knocked at your door better than he had come by his lonesome? 

Pray to God as He is a family, address Him as a family, know Him as a family and your dilemma will be resolved. That's what God tells me to help you.

Now how does God tell me this? Well he tells me within the spiritual traditions of his born again creation--which is his spiritual Kingdom for his born again people. ( Now that is a mouthful right!) Which brings me to the second thing God tells me in this spiritual reality I occupy with Him and other Christians... He says, " You cannot land a tuna from your neighbor's swimming pool, or know your golf handicap if you ain't on the course." So He tells me to tell you, "Get on the course and cast your lines in My ocean, otherwise your prayers are just play things... just entertainment on this here forum."

So I think what God is saying, is spirituality is only revealing of God, and His will for all of us, if you jump in, as in a total immersion. Otherwise your just teasing a Lion.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> What are your parameters for knowing whether or not I'm telling the truth, and discerning whether or not I am actually hearing from God?



God knows the intimate details of the claims made by some members of my church.  Either God spoke directly to those members and gave them clear direction regarding His will, or He did not.  

If your answer is of your own personal opinion, I would not expect you to know any of the specific details.  If your answer is from God, you should have a clear understanding of the specific details.


----------



## HawgJawl

gordon 2 said:


> Why even bother to ask the dilemma questions on a christian forum? I mean, as you say... the outlook is biased from the get go?
> 
> Ok, then if scripture can be used as you say to justify two divergent spiritual communities...you must look outside of scripture for a resolution.
> 
> Do you know of any spiritual community that has more than scripture to resolve dilemma such as yours?
> 
> So God tells me that first off you must address your prayers to God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that God is a community outside of scripture. So you must address prayers in this way.
> 
> Now as for me, you can accuse me of being to one camp vs another and that what God tells me is just as valid as the other, which is just another way of saying will the real God please stand up. However, ask yourself, although other communities might know God, do they know Him and his family? in the same manner that you knew your spouse better for getting to know her family?
> 
> If a Jehovah's Witness came to your door today with his family, and that person who knocked at your door, let them speak, would you know the person who knocked at your door better than he had come by his lonesome?
> 
> Pray to God as He is a family, address Him as a family, know Him as a family and your dilemma will be resolved. That's what God tells me to help you.
> 
> Now how does God tell me this? Well he tells me within the spiritual traditions of his born again creation--which is his spiritual Kingdom for his born again people. ( Now that is a mouthful right!) Which brings me to the second thing God tells me in this spiritual reality I occupy with Him and other Christians... He says, " You cannot land a tuna from your neighbor's swimming pool, or know your golf handicap if you ain't on the course." So He tells me to tell you, "Get on the course and cast your lines in My ocean, otherwise your prayers are just play things... just entertainment on this here forum."
> 
> So I think what God is saying, is spirituality is only revealing of God, and His will for all of us, if you jump in, as in a total immersion. Otherwise your just teasing a Lion.



I'm doing everything I know to do to be receptive to God's will.  So far, God has not spoken to me, so I asked my question to people who profess to speak with God daily.

I have been given many reasons why God may not speak to me.  I have been given no reasons why God would not speak to anyone else on this forum regarding my question.


----------



## stringmusic

HawgJawl said:


> I do believe God exists and I've been talking to Him daily, albeit a one-way conversation so far.



They may be exactly what He knows you need.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> If your answer is from God, you should have a clear understanding of the specific details.



What's your basis for that conclusion?


----------



## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> If your answer is from God, you should have a clear understanding of the specific details.





JB0704 said:


> What's your basis for that conclusion?



Scripture.


----------



## JB0704

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture.



Nope.  Scripture does not tell us that god will disclose details of a conversation.

You are trying very hard to make a point.  It would be easier if you came out and said what your getting at.....it's painfully obvious, as this exercise is not as clever as you think it is.


----------



## HawgJawl

JB0704 said:


> Nope.  Scripture does not tell us that god will disclose details of a conversation.



Throughout scripture, when God communicated with man, the message was specific and clear.  There is no indication in scripture that God has trouble getting a message through when He wants to communicate with man.  Scripture shows that God is capable of relaying specific information to man which is clearly understood.  

I see no scripture where man writes something like "I sense that God may be trying to lead me in a certain direction."

A group of people at my church reported that God spoke clearly to them with specific directions.  Either that happened or it did not.  If this did happen, I am praying for God to repeat this exact same thing to me or anyone else on this forum.

Also, if this did in fact happen, I would think that all Christians would be extremely interested in this unusual event.

If this did not happen as reported, there are some folks at my church who are either lying or very confused about voices in their heads.


----------



## M80

HawgJawl said:


> Throughout scripture, when God communicated with man, the message was specific and clear.  There is no indication in scripture that God has trouble getting a message through when He wants to communicate with man.  Scripture shows that God is capable of relaying specific information to man which is clearly understood.
> 
> I see no scripture where man writes something like "I sense that God may be trying to lead me in a certain direction."
> 
> A group of people at my church reported that God spoke clearly to them with specific directions.  Either that happened or it did not.  If this did happen, I am praying for God to repeat this exact same thing to me or anyone else on this forum.
> 
> Also, if this did in fact happen, I would think that all Christians would be extremely interested in this unusual event.
> 
> If this did not happen as reported, there are some folks at my church who are either lying or very confused about voices in their heads.



Hawg, I've stayed out of this for a while. I've got a question. Have you ever been saved. (Born again)


----------



## HawgJawl

mwilliams80 said:


> Hawg, I've stayed out of this for a while. I've got a question. Have you ever been saved. (Born again)



I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church.  Sunday school, Sunday evening service, Wednesday night service, Tuesday night choir practice, etc.  When I was 13 years old, I felt conviction during the alter call, I walked down the aisle, knelt at the alter, and prayed with my pastor.  I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, was baptized, and joined the church.  When I was 16 - 18 years old, I felt strongly that the Lord might be calling me to be a preacher.  I never followed through with it though.

There have been many times in my life when I truly believed that God was guiding me.


----------



## M80

HawgJawl said:


> I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church.  Sunday school, Sunday evening service, Wednesday night service, Tuesday night choir practice, etc.  When I was 13 years old, I felt conviction during the alter call, I walked down the aisle, knelt at the alter, and prayed with my pastor.  I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior, was baptized, and joined the church.  When I was 16 - 18 years old, I felt strongly that the Lord might be calling me to be a preacher.  I never followed through with it though.
> 
> There have been many times in my life when I truly believed that God was guiding me.




Your testimony sounds a lot like mine. I got out of the will of God when I was 16.  I was saved at 12 though in a summer revival. I was called to preach when I was 19, surrendered to the calling and been pastoring the past 2 years. I'm 33 now and being in the lords will is the best thing in the world. God has never with an audible voice spoke to me even though I know he could. The Holy Ghost that lives within me leads and guides me. An old preacher man once said "lord, I'll never walk through a door that you haven't opened, but only the ones you do open". The bible says the steps of a righteous man are ordered by The Lord.  Some say, how do I know if I'm in the lords will. Think about Jonah, he got out of gods will when he went to tarshish. What happened, it went from the word of The Lord into god sent a strong wind. I don't know your whole testimony, are you in gods will, have been out of his will living like the world for a long while and know all of the sudden your seeking back after The Lord. God made a promise to Abraham and Sarah about Isaac, but had to wait many years to get him. Don't give up on The Lord. Remember Ellijah, it was a small still voice when god spoke.


----------



## HawgJawl

mwilliams80 said:


> I don't know your whole testimony, are you in gods will, have been out of his will living like the world for a long while and know all of the sudden your seeking back after The Lord.



Some Christians automatically connect the level of ethics and morals in a person's lifestyle directly to the person's level of involvement in a Christian church.  I don't see a close connection between the two.

Some of the most ethical and moral people I am aware of were not Christian.  Mahatma Gandhi is just one example.

Conversely, some of the most ruthless and unethical people I am aware of were highly religious, at least in appearance.

My point is that my ethics and morals, my desire to live a Christ-like life, was instilled in me from early childhood and does not change each time my level of faith in God changes.

When I go through stages of disbelief, my lifestyle does not change.  I don't automatically start living wickedly when I step away from the church.  The biggest change is my perspective of the level of involvement of God in our everyday life.  I begin to see normal coincidence as opposed to an act of God.  I also feel an increased need for human charity when I begin to question whether or not God is going to take care of the problem Himself.

My seeking God right now has nothing to do with "hitting rock bottom and needing God to save me from myself".  I am opening my mind up the the very real possibility that I am wrong when I disbelieve.  I have felt, in the past, what I thought to be God leading me.  I also realize that this "feeling" is not 100% reliable because many people have "felt" that God was leading them to do things which were contrary to scripture.  

I am completely open to God working in my life.  All I want is for God to make His presence known to me.  I'm not asking for a miraculous event, even though some members of my church claim that they received one.  All I'm asking for is the same amount of contact from God that makes so many others absolutely convinced that God is communicating with them or leading them.


----------



## Israel

Faith is what pleases him.
Have you never thought it peculiar that Ghandi said this: 

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” 

Perhaps, in some innermost place Ghandi had set Jesus apart as Lord, I really don't know. 
But I know that the many I have met personally that assent to the "wonderful" moral teachings, the gracious words, the acts of kindness and forbearance...balk...often, at the complete and utter plainness with which Jesus commanded obedience and acceptance of the truth of his being. His claim upon our soul is absolute and unwavering. 
This is what grace is for. That a man may receive that truth, find himself pinioned to a stake...and yet...because of that grace find liberty, peace, communion, life and joy there.
You view a "progression" as stated:

"I begin to see normal coincidence as opposed to an act of God." 

This is precisely not as things are.
Everything has a motive, everything has an origin, everything is precisely not "accidental", and everything has a consequence...words, deeds, thoughts and even...unbelief.
The temporary paralysis to which this understanding leads...passes. 
And we learn, perhaps, grace is not so I can just blithely imagine everything I say or do pleases God because I am his, but because I am his...or you, or any, that we will be able to bear our chastening when administered as necessary...for grace also tells us God...is Daddy...who loves us...to our good.
Through Jesus Christ.
The Lord.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> All I'm asking for is the same amount of contact from God that makes so many others absolutely convinced that God is communicating with them or leading them.



Maybe those people are nuts.


----------



## Israel

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe those people are nuts.




I am not sure if you are implying it would be anything but normal for the Creator to communicate with his creation.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe those people are nuts.



Are you referring specifically to the folks at my church who claim that God spoke to them or are you referring to anyone who claims that God is communicating with them?


----------



## 1222DANO

Where does the Preachers sermon come from?  

So if God doesn't speak to us then how can a man Preach an hour long message "from God" and it hit the Aspects of our lives that needs to be addressed.
it wasn't rehearsed.


----------



## HawgJawl

1222DANO said:


> Where does the Preachers sermon come from?
> 
> So if God doesn't speak to us then how can a man Preach an hour long message "from God" and it hit the Aspects of our lives that needs to be addressed.
> it wasn't rehearsed.



I'm not sure if this is directed at Centerpin Fan or me.

I do believe that scripture supports a belief that God communicates with those who earnestly seek Him, and that is precisely what I have been praying for.


----------



## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> I do believe God exists and I've been talking to Him daily, albeit a one-way conversation so far.





stringmusic said:


> They may be exactly what He knows you need.




I've been thinking about this statement for a while now.  Under the old covenant, it does seem that God would ignore His people on occassion.  The book of Lamentations is a good example of this.

But, is this still true under the new covenant?  I'm looking for New Testament scripture that says God may not respond to some people who seek Him.


----------



## Madman

HawgJawl said:


> Let’s spend the day getting our hearts right with God.  Let’s strengthen our faith that our Lord will deliver.  This evening, let’s find a quiet place to commune with our Father.
> 
> 
> Recite the Lord’s Prayer, and then ask;
> 
> Did modern animals evolve from lower forms of life?



HJ,

Not sure the need for this question.  God has already answered and made that answer available to all men.

24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:24-25

By the way the answer is no.


----------



## Madman

HawgJawl said:


> I also realize that this "feeling" is not 100% reliable because many people have "felt" that God was leading them to do things which were contrary to scripture.



God would NEVER lead someone in a direction contrary to Scripture.  But demons would.


----------



## HawgJawl

Madman said:


> HJ,
> 
> Not sure the need for this question.  God has already answered and made that answer available to all men.
> 
> 24 Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature according to its kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth, each according to its kind”; and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth according to its kind, cattle according to its kind, and everything that creeps on the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.
> Genesis 1:24-25
> 
> By the way the answer is no.



The point of this thread was never about proving or disproving the theory of evolution.  The point of the initial question was about the source of our answers to these type of questions.  Specifically, the difference between obtaining an answer directly from God through prayer or coming to our own conclusions based upon our interpretation of scripture, what we have been told, and our own personal opinions.

Lifeway Research conducts polls of Protestant pastors and has found that there is no unanimous answer to the questions regarding evolution.  A decent percentage of pastors believe that God used evolution.

Again, the point is not to prove or disprove evolution.  The point is that if all Christians received the answer to this question directly from God through prayer, there would be NO disagreement on the answer.

So, please allow me to ask;  Did you receive that answer directly from God through prayer or from some other source?


----------



## ambush80

HawgJawl said:


> The point of this thread was never about proving or disproving the theory of evolution.  The point of the initial question was about the source of our answers to these type of questions.  Specifically, the difference between obtaining an answer directly from God through prayer or coming to our own conclusions based upon our interpretation of scripture, what we have been told, and our own personal opinions.
> 
> Lifeway Research conducts polls of Protestant pastors and has found that there is no unanimous answer to the questions regarding evolution.  A decent percentage of pastors believe that God used evolution.
> 
> Again, the point is not to prove or disprove evolution.  The point is that if all Christians received the answer to this question directly from God through prayer, there would be NO disagreement on the answer.
> 
> So, please allow me to ask;  Did you receive that answer directly from God through prayer or from some other source?



Maybe he tells some people one thing and tells other people something else.  I know he's not the author of "confusion" but maybe he calls it something else.  Maybe it's a test.  Maybe your not supposed to know.  Did I leave any out?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> The point is that if all Christians received the answer to this question directly from God through prayer, there would be NO disagreement on the answer.



I guess all Christians DON'T receive the answer to this question directly from God through prayer.

Problem solved.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> I guess all Christians DON'T receive the answer to this question directly from God through prayer.
> 
> Problem solved.



I agree with you, but is there anyone on this forum who does?


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I agree with you, but is there anyone on this forum who does?


Yes, and I thank God that he gives me answers even when he doesn't have me to pray for them.


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, and I thank God that he gives me answers even when he doesn't have me to pray for them.



Many people have tried to describe to me what they believe to be God communicating with them.  I have thoughts which spring forth in my mind.  Some of those are consistent with scripture and some are not, but neither of those types feel different to me in origin.  

Can you describe to me how you tell the difference between a thought that originates within your own mind and a message placed in your mind by God?


----------



## HawgJawl

I'm still praying daily for God to make His presence known to me.  Nothing yet.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> I'm still praying daily for God to make His presence known to me.  Nothing yet.



Why you praying daily? Dont you think He heard you the first time?

 Things happen in His time for a reason.


----------



## Israel

There's something less than wholesome about "reporting back" on God.
While you say you seek to engage him with your whole heart, obviously you yet have enough strength of consideration to imagine it's necessary for you to keep a running bulletin. 
Do I say this to shame you? Hardly.
Do I say this knowing, what God wants to have with you goes far beyond the necessity...even your ability to report on it?
The confessions of dying men, the equivalent of ecstatic utterances, come unbidden and unplanned; unmediated by intent or control.
"You can't handle the truth!...as suddenly the truth bursts forth like a dam breached...a tsunami with no regard for once its earthly borders. And uncaring of repercussion, all is laid bare, even to the speaker's indictment, and the Lord's vindication.
Do all, or perhaps, many here find themselves "rooting" for you...indeed...and what may sound as though a discouragement in your experiment becomes less, "I hope he hears something" to "hear what the Lord has spoken!"
Now is the axe laid to the root.


----------



## HawgJawl

Israel said:


> There's something less than wholesome about "reporting back" on God.
> While you say you seek to engage him with your whole heart, obviously you yet have enough strength of consideration to imagine it's necessary for you to keep a running bulletin.
> Do I say this to shame you? Hardly.
> Do I say this knowing, what God wants to have with you goes far beyond the necessity...even your ability to report on it?
> The confessions of dying men, the equivalent of ecstatic utterances, come unbidden and unplanned; unmediated by intent or control.
> "You can't handle the truth!...as suddenly the truth bursts forth like a dam breached...a tsunami with no regard for once its earthly borders. And uncaring of repercussion, all is laid bare, even to the speaker's indictment, and the Lord's vindication.
> Do all, or perhaps, many here find themselves "rooting" for you...indeed...and what may sound as though a discouragement in your experiment becomes less, "I hope he hears something" to "hear what the Lord has spoken!"
> Now is the axe laid to the root.




When God makes His presence known to me, I will be shouting it from the rooftops.  I will be testifying it to everyone I meet.  I will be engaging all my doubting friends with exactly what has erased all my doubt.  I will be apologizing to everyone whose faith may have been weakened by my questioning.  I will be doing much more than simply reporting back on God.

I assume that this type of reporting is okay and possibly encouraged, but until then you had rather not hear about the status of my relationship with God.


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> When God makes His presence known to me, I will be shouting it from the rooftops.  I will be testifying it to everyone I meet.  I will be engaging all my doubting friends with exactly what has erased all my doubt.  I will be apologizing to everyone whose faith may have been weakened by my questioning.  I will be doing much more than simply reporting back on God.
> 
> I assume that this type of reporting is okay and possibly encouraged, but until then you had rather not hear about the status of my relationship with God.




Now...you're talkin'!


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> When God makes His presence known to me, I will be shouting it from the rooftops.  I will be testifying it to everyone I meet.  I will be engaging all my doubting friends with exactly what has erased all my doubt.  I will be apologizing to everyone whose faith may have been weakened by my questioning.  I will be doing much more than simply reporting back on God.
> 
> I assume that this type of reporting is okay and possibly encouraged, but until then you had rather not hear about the status of my relationship with God.



Maybe you are just not one of the "elect",  God only communicates through the New Testament, all the Gifts/Holy Spirit communication is over, God's gifts rain on everyone, or you just don't have enough faith. Many more Biblical  possibilities, I just can't think of any right now.
We've discussed God has already decided how everything will be down to the Holy Spirit has left only the New Testament for his role on earth. 
Considering the way things happen to Christians vs Hindus, I'm going to have to re-examine my beliefs  on "the way things happen" or how they are revealed.
Nothing personally against you but don't you think it's time to move on? You have sincerely tried to seek divine intervention and haven't succeeded. It is possible the gifts have been taken away and replaced with the New Testament. This is beginning to make more sense as I see what happens around me.  
If you can't rely on faith alone then it's time to move on. I'm not saying this to be harsh, but it is a reality of Christianity.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I need to reexamine how the Holy Spirit reveals. Perhaps it is by knowledge only.
Maybe it's not even that important what I(man) think.
It basically does go back to: "what does the Bible say?"

I have felt the presence of the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. It is a peaceful easy feeling. I have felt his power. I have felt his influence. I have shunned his influence and have disappointed  myself. 
I have never felt like God has driven me to do something differently than revealed in his scripture. In the past I have, now when people say God told me to do ____, I question it. 
I feel God gives us more leeway to read the Bible and decide for ourselves. This is why we have so many different beliefs. It's not the Holy Spirit guiding people differently. It's people guiding themselves differently. I can't answer why God lets people do this. But he does let people choose him and he does let people choose helping others. He does give us his doctrine.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe we're looking too deep for proof in answers, revelations, divine interventions, etc. when the reality of God is based more on faith and his Word.
I think we need to look at what we need to be doing, as in helping others vs what we expect God to be doing. We need to take on the responsibility of doing good things on our own vs depending on the Holy Spirit for personal guidance. His guidance is given to us in scripture. Read it and do it.
We do have free will, will be judged on how we help others, and we are expected by God to be a better person.
You can "surrender all" as far as your eternal death goes but God still expects free will actions from you. If you need Holy Spirit intervention, read the Bible. It or he will surely help.


----------



## Swamp Angel

Hawg, consider this. . . Saul of Tarsus was on the way to Damascus to persecute CHristians when Christ appeared to him and spoke directly to him. He asked, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?" Saul, had no dount as to who had just spoken to him directly. But did Christ tell Saul what he must do? 

No. He told him to continue on to Damascus and there he would meet someone (Ananias) who would tell him what he must do. 

The Roman centurion, Cornelius, prayed to God and was faithful and upright, and his prayer was heard by God. Did God answer him directly? No. He sent Simon Peter to Cornelius to tell him what he must do to be saved.

The Ethiopian eunuch was traveling and studying the scriptures trying to understand the promise of the Christ that God had made so that mankind might be redeemed. Did God directly reveal Himself to him and tell him what was required of him? Again, the answer is no. God used Philip to expound upon the scriptures and preach unto him Christ, after which the Ethiopian eunuch took the opportunity to immediately be baptized. Philip was then caught up and taken away.

Even back in the Old Testament we read of Naaman, a general of the Syrian army who was greatly respected. He was smitten with the dread disease of leprosy and sought to be cured of it. Did God cure him directly? 

No. He was directed by a prophet to dip seven times in the Jordan River and he would be cleansed.

Even when Hannah was praying for a child and Eli thought her to be intoxicated because of her state of duress and fervent prayer, God did not speak directly to her.

In 1 Corinthians 13 Paul tells us that now (the time at which he was writing) we know in part and we see in part, but when that which is full is come, then that which is in part shall be done away with.

The scriptures are complete. The plan of salvation has been revealed to us in its entirety. There is no more need for tongues (they shall cease), nor many of the other gifts of the Holy Ghost which were signs at the time to confirm the word of God as true. Today, we have the written word of God as our guide, and to ask for yet more signs from God is to essentially state that we still don't believe Him.

Are there questions in life to which we still feel we don't have an answer? Absolutely. So where then shall we turn for an answer to these questions we have.

Well, first of all, what is the nature of our question? Is it a question which requires an answer that is essential to our salvation? If so, then the answer is to be found in the scriptures. 

Is it a question that is not essential for our salvation? If so, then allow me to refer you to Deuteronomy 29:29 for an answer. It probably won't be the answer you wanted, but it is the answer that God has given.

In all this, however, I sincerely hope that I have not damaged your faith and desire to pray unceasingly with thanksgiving to our God. Our God does indeed still answer prayers, just as a parent grants his childrens' wishes. For just as a parent will not give his or her child something that is harmful (no matter how fervently the child begs for it) God will not give one of his children a gift that is harmful to their spiritual well-being, no matter how much they may desire it. And _that_ is what it means to pray that God's will be done.


----------



## Madman

HawgJawl said:


> So, please allow me to ask;  Did you receive that answer directly from God through prayer or from some other source?



I received it directly from God through prayerful study of His Word.

The Holy Scriptures are the primary way God has chosen to reveal himself to His creation today.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> I received it directly from God through prayerful study of His Word.
> 
> The Holy Scriptures are the primary way God has chosen to reveal himself to His creation today.



Do you believe in the Holy Spirit cessation?

A belief in Holy Spirit cessation would be harder if one believes in the Trinity.
God himself is a spirit. I see the Holy Spirit as the power of God. The Holy Spirit has manifest itself as breath, wind, fire, water, oil, and a dove.


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe in the Holy Spirit cessation?



AD,

You are going to have to define what you mean by this before I can give you a reasonable answer.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> AD,
> 
> You are going to have to define what you mean by this before I can give you a reasonable answer.



Do you believe the Holy Spirit responds in other ways beyond the "Word?"
Some believe the Holy Spirit is only revealed in the Modern Church in the form of the Bible. The ceasing or cessation varies among believers from no more gifts to guidance only in the form of Scripture.
It's based on the Early Church needing the Holy Spirit's manifestations because the average Christian of that time didn't have a readable Bible. Thus we needed more help than we do now because we have printed & readable Bibles. Today the Bible "is" the Holy Spirit.


----------



## centerpin fan

What's the over/under on the length of this thread?  Three hundred seems a given, but do you think it'll hit 400 posts?


----------



## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> What's the over/under on the length of this thread?  Three hundred seems a given, but do you think it'll hit 400 posts?



I'll say 350 before HJ gets bored with the exercise. It's slowing down some.


----------



## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe the Holy Spirit responds in other ways beyond the "Word?"



Yes.  who am I to bind God?


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> Can you describe to me how you tell the difference between a thought that originates within your own mind and a message placed in your mind by God?


I have a question that is logically prior to yours. Does a thought create itself?


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Nothing personally against you but don't you think it's time to move on? You have sincerely tried to seek divine intervention and haven't succeeded. It is possible the gifts have been taken away and replaced with the New Testament. This is beginning to make more sense as I see what happens around me.
> If you can't rely on faith alone then it's time to move on. I'm not saying this to be harsh, but it is a reality of Christianity.



I'm no longer praying for "divine intervention" or any of the "spiritual gifts" or any type of miracle.  I'm praying for the "thing" that most Christians profess that they have.  Most Christians profess that they feel God's presence in their lives.  Most Christians claim some type of communication with God.  Most Christians profess that they KNOW that God is real in their lives because of .....


----------



## HawgJawl

Swamp Angel said:


> The scriptures are complete. The plan of salvation has been revealed to us in its entirety. There is no more need for tongues (they shall cease), nor many of the other gifts of the Holy Ghost which were signs at the time to confirm the word of God as true. Today, we have the written word of God as our guide, and to ask for yet more signs from God is to essentially state that we still don't believe Him.



Thank you for your post.

Below is a post from earlier in this thread:



HawgJawl said:


> I am simply seeking any type of communication that is real and cannot be equally claimed by any number of religions.
> 
> Let me explain why I’m looking for more than interpretation of scripture as my source of communication from God;
> 
> To Sanatani (orthodox) Hindu, such as Mahatma Gandhi, the Vedas are infallible, revealed scripture from their god.  Mahatma Gandhi was quoted as saying:
> 
> I find a solace in the Bhagavad Gita that I miss even in the Sermon on the Mount.  When disappointment stares me in the face and all alone I see not one ray of light, I go back to the Bhagavad Gita.  I find a verse here and a verse there and I immediately begin to smile in the midst of overwhelming tragedies – and my life has been full of external tragedies – and if they have left no visible, no indelible scar on me, I owe it all to the teaching of Bhagavad Gita.
> 
> If, while reading the Bhagavad Gita, I felt moved that the text was speaking to me and directly related to my current situation in some inexplicable way, would you consider that to be communication from Brahma?



I don't want to misinterpret your post or put words in your mouth, so please allow me to ask you this:

Do you believe that God makes His presence known to His people today in any manner other than the Bible?

A Hindu can believe that Brahma communicates to them through the Bhagavad Gita just as a Christian can believe that the God of Abraham communicates to them through the Bible.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe the Holy Spirit responds in other ways beyond the "Word?"
> Some believe the Holy Spirit is only revealed in the Modern Church in the form of the Bible. The ceasing or cessation varies among believers from no more gifts to guidance only in the form of Scripture.
> It's based on the Early Church needing the Holy Spirit's manifestations because the average Christian of that time didn't have a readable Bible. Thus we needed more help than we do now because we have printed & readable Bibles. Today the Bible "is" the Holy Spirit.



God spoke face-to-face with Moses when relaying the information for the scripture written by Moses.  The Ten Commandments were important enough for God to write Himself.

If the New Testament was intended to replace the Holy Spirit, it would be of even greater importance than the Ten Commandments.  Did Jesus write any scripture?  Did Jesus instruct His disciples to transcribe His words as He spoke?  Did Jesus instruct His disciples to record the story at any point in scripture?


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> I have a question that is logically prior to yours. Does a thought create itself?



I really don't know how thoughts originate.  Some are inspired by different emotions but exactly how a thought is created, I don't know.

Do you believe that ALL thoughts of man are created by God?


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> I really don't know how thoughts originate.  Some are inspired by different emotions but exactly how a thought is created, I don't know.
> 
> Do you believe that ALL thoughts of man are created by God?


Everything has an origin...and every word carries spirit.


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## 1222DANO

God is Love,,, isn't that the old saying.. So maybe the way we would view it.. Is how much do we love being where we are in life..  If you feel the need to communicate with God through prayer and conversation then maybe your asking for some love for someone,yourself or some people.. You wanna focus the love of God on a certain need you may see in your life or other peoples lives. explains one part but i'm not sure about the ones who hear voices.. i've done some serious prayers before and had some unexplainable outcomes although not spontaneous but i can directly remember praying and not understanding my situation at the time.. But later have things happen that are just things that would blow peoples minds..


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## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I really don't know how thoughts originate.  Some are inspired by different emotions but exactly how a thought is created, I don't know.
> 
> Do you believe that ALL thoughts of man are created by God?


If only God is self existent...


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## HawgJawl

I've been seeking God for over three months.  I've been knocking on the door, but there's been no answer.

I'm having difficulty understanding why God is ignoring me while I'm reading scripture that promises that all you have to do is ask.


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## gordon 2

HawgJawl said:


> I've been seeking God for over three months.  I've been knocking on the door, but there's been no answer.
> 
> I'm having difficulty understanding why God is ignoring me while I'm reading scripture that promises that all you have to do is ask.




Reading is just not doing it for you. Maybe take time off. Sometimes when we read too hard and we grind our teeth, making our ears ring to such an extent that hearing is impaired. You need a vacation from your vocation maybe?

Or read here: Luke ch. 4

23 And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country.

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;

26 But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.

28 And all they in the synagogue, when they heard these things, were filled with wrath,

29 And rose up, and thrust him out of the city, and led him unto the brow of the hill whereon their city was built, that they might cast him down headlong.


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## hobbs27

I don't know why this came to me, but here it is free of charge.

4 Whence [are] wars and fightings among you? not thence -- out of your passions, that are as soldiers in your members?
2 ye desire, and ye have not; ye murder, and are zealous, and are not able to attain; ye fight and war, and ye have not, because of your not asking;
3 ye ask, and ye receive not, because evilly ye ask, that in your pleasures ye may spend [it].
4 Adulterers and adulteresses! have ye not known that friendship of the world is enmity with God? whoever, then, may counsel to be a friend of the world, an enemy of God he is set.
5 Do ye think that emptily the Writing saith, `To envy earnestly desireth the spirit that did dwell in us,'
6 and greater grace he doth give, wherefore he saith, `God against proud ones doth set Himself up, and to lowly ones He doth give grace?'
7 be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;
8 draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you; cleanse hands, ye sinners! and purify hearts, ye two-souled!
9 be exceeding afflicted, and mourn, and weep, let your laughter to mourning be turned, and the joy to heaviness;
10 be made low before the Lord, and He shall exalt you.
11 Speak not one against another, brethren; he who is speaking against a brother, and is judging his brother, doth speak against law, and doth judge law, and if law thou dost judge, thou art not a doer of law but a judge;
12 one is the lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy; thou -- who art thou that dost judge the other?
13 Go, now, ye who are saying, `To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city, and will pass there one year, and traffic, and make gain;'
14 who do not know the thing of the morrow; for what is your life? for it is a vapour that is appearing for a little, and then is vanishing;
15 instead of your saying, `If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;'
16 and now ye glory in your pride; all such glorying is evil;
17 to him, then, knowing to do good, and not doing, sin it is to him.


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## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> I've been seeking God for over three months.  I've been knocking on the door, but there's been no answer.
> 
> I'm having difficulty understanding why God is ignoring me while I'm reading scripture that promises that all you have to do is ask.


Perhaps He will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy? Perhaps He works ALL THINGS after the counsel of his own will?


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## 1222DANO

hobbs27 said:


> I don't know why this came to me, but here it is free of charge.
> 
> 4 Whence [are] wars and fightings among you? not thence -- out of your passions, that are as soldiers in your members?
> 2 ye desire, and ye have not; ye murder, and are zealous, and are not able to attain; ye fight and war, and ye have not, because of your not asking;
> 3 ye ask, and ye receive not, because evilly ye ask, that in your pleasures ye may spend [it].
> 4 Adulterers and adulteresses! have ye not known that friendship of the world is enmity with God? whoever, then, may counsel to be a friend of the world, an enemy of God he is set.
> 5 Do ye think that emptily the Writing saith, `To envy earnestly desireth the spirit that did dwell in us,'
> 6 and greater grace he doth give, wherefore he saith, `God against proud ones doth set Himself up, and to lowly ones He doth give grace?'
> 7 be subject, then, to God; stand up against the devil, and he will flee from you;
> 8 draw nigh to God, and He will draw nigh to you; cleanse hands, ye sinners! and purify hearts, ye two-souled!
> 9 be exceeding afflicted, and mourn, and weep, let your laughter to mourning be turned, and the joy to heaviness;
> 10 be made low before the Lord, and He shall exalt you.
> 11 Speak not one against another, brethren; he who is speaking against a brother, and is judging his brother, doth speak against law, and doth judge law, and if law thou dost judge, thou art not a doer of law but a judge;
> 12 one is the lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy; thou -- who art thou that dost judge the other?
> 13 Go, now, ye who are saying, `To-day and to-morrow we will go on to such a city, and will pass there one year, and traffic, and make gain;'
> 14 who do not know the thing of the morrow; for what is your life? for it is a vapour that is appearing for a little, and then is vanishing;
> 15 instead of your saying, `If the Lord may will, we shall live, and do this or that;'
> 16 and now ye glory in your pride; all such glorying is evil;
> 17 to him, then, knowing to do good, and not doing, sin it is to him.




WoW, did those words just come out of you without really having to think about it?


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