# Who condemned me?



## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Jhn 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I am condemned already, so who judged and condemned me or man?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Jhn 3:18
> He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
> 
> I am condemned already, so who judged and condemned me or man?


 
Jesus!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

What about the people that know God by his creation/nature and are without excuse?
They may know God by his creation/nature but may not know his Son. If they have never heard the Good News how can they believe?
Does God elect without giving knowledge?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Jhn 3:18
> He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
> 
> I am condemned already, so who judged and condemned me or man?



Adam condemned you. If you are already judged, what about the Judgement Day on the last day?


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus!



John 8:15
Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.

not Jesus


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Adam condemned you. If you are already judged, what about the Judgement Day on the last day?



The "judgement day is not for Judgement but the sentencing, you are already guilty, the question is, Have you accepted the pardon offered?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> The "judgement day is not for Judgement but the sentencing, you are already guilty, the question is, Have you accepted the pardon offered?



OK why are we already condemned? For not believing in Jesus, being born into sin, or for our individual sinning?


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## gordon 2 (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the people that know God by his creation/nature and are without excuse?
> They may know God by his creation/nature but may not know his Son. If they have never heard the Good News how can they believe?
> Does God elect without giving knowledge?



Art, the Good Samaritan knew not Jesus perhaps and yet Jesus says he is our brother. ???


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

notice the Father judgeth no *man*

but judgement of man is given to the Son

 Jhn 5:22
For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Man will be judge as a future event

You were condemned as a spiritual being , before you had a body prepared for you.  Is all i can come up with.

We know we will judge other spiritual beings who sinned.

 1Co 6:3
Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

So maybe we should think that being human is not a failure but part of the redemption process,

 Maybe Jesus meant a sinner has to be born of the flesh and born of the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God,
Jhn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

 Jhn 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> John 8:15
> Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man.
> 
> not Jesus



In the big picture. Ye are saved by Christ, therefore those not saved by Christ are condemned by Christ.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 23, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> In the big picture. Ye are saved by Christ, therefore those not saved by Christ are condemned by Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> In the big picture. Ye are saved by Christ, therefore those not saved by Christ are condemned by Christ.



OK why are we already condemned? For not believing in Jesus, being born into sin, or for our individual sinning?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Maybe Jesus meant a sinner has to be born of the flesh and born of the spirit to enter the Kingdom of God,
> Jhn 3:5
> Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
> 
> ...



It appears your Trinitarian logic is overflowing into all spirits. I don't read these verses as preexisting sinner spirits being born of the flesh in the same process as God being  born of water(flesh) in the incarnate Jesus.
They are just saying a man is born of water(flesh) and must have a spiritual birth also later down the road to enter the Kingdom. I don't read them as a man preexisting and taking on flesh as prerequisite to enter the Kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

If man must be born of flesh to enter the Kingdom then God would have to have incarnate as Jesus as a means to enter the Kingdom.

Jesus being 100% man was born of water but his flesh existence isn't eternal. He hasn't always been a man.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Art, the Good Samaritan knew not Jesus perhaps and yet Jesus says he is our brother. ???



How can Jesus be our brother if he is his Father incarnate?
What made the Samaritan his brother and our brother? Being born of water or spirit? Was it his works/deeds or did he believe Jesus was the Messiah?
Perhaps Jesus just elected him for no reason.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> OK why are we already condemned? For not believing in Jesus, being born into sin, or for our individual sinning?



I'm a ( whosoever will) Christian. The drawing of the HS is your chance to be saved. To reject that drawing is blasphemy of the HS.
 Therefore, those that accept Christ are redeemed, those that reject are condemned.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm a ( whosoever will) Christian. The drawing of the HS is your chance to be saved. To reject that drawing is blasphemy of the HS.
> Therefore, those that accept Christ are redeemed, those that reject are condemned.



That sounds like salvation from something I've already been condemn for. Either I was already condemned for being born into sin or I was condemned for sinning. 
Not everyone has heard the Good News in able to believe or in able for the Holy Spirit to draw yet they are already condemned.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> That sounds like salvation from something I've already been condemn for. Either I was already condemned for being born into sin or I was condemned for sinning.
> Not everyone has heard the Good News in able to believe or in able for the Holy Spirit to draw yet they are already condemned.


It's an invitation, to take of the water of life offered freely..to enter the gates, or be on the outside with the liars, cheats, etc.. Revelation 22:17


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It's an invitation, to take of the water of life offered freely..to enter the gates, or be on the outside with the liars, cheats, etc.. Revelation 22:17



I understand it's an offer of salvation from condemnation. I don't view refusing the offer as my condemnation. I was already condemned. Jesus is my salvation. If I refuse the salvation offer it's not the refusal that condemns me as I was already condemned.

I guess another way of saying it is "unbelievers" are already condemned. Even if they don't know they are unbelievers.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand it's an offer of salvation from condemnation. I don't view refusing the offer as my condemnation. I was already condemned. Jesus is my salvation. If I refuse the salvation offer it's not the refusal that condemns me as I was already condemned.
> 
> I guess another way of saying it is "unbelievers" are already condemned. Even if they don't know they are unbelievers.




I don't believe we are born condemned. Conviction comes by the HS , Jesus is the way, the only way. When that way is denied it is that very way that condemns. IMO


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## welderguy (Jul 24, 2015)

The law of God is what would condemn us all because none of us can keep the law perfectly.If we break one part,we are guilty of it all.But according to Rom.8,Jesus has taken our condemnation upon Himself,if you are in Him.(elect)

Romans 8
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How can Jesus be our brother if he is his Father incarnate?
> What made the Samaritan his brother and our brother? Being born of water or spirit? Was it his works/deeds or did he believe Jesus was the Messiah?
> Perhaps Jesus just elected him for no reason.



Art, you know these answers. Your's are rhetorical questions right?

Just in case. Jesus is our brother because he is in the will of the Father as we are in the will of Jesus.

The Samaritan ( even if he was not even considered a Jew) had it in himself the will of the Father toward others, regards oppression and compassion. He helped with no reward expected--he had compassion on an other, just like God had compassion on the Hebrew captives at some point in our past. It is in this regard that human beings are brothers perhaps regardless that they are "saved" or to the "mystical body of Christ" or to something other in God.

Put in today"s terms the fundamentalist-evangelical and the Catholic-humanist walked by a man ( a foreign worker)  that had been mugged not wanting to be involved for their self preserving (political) reasons. A  Bahai-Quaker-New Ager ( a pacifist, hippie socialist from the North!) walks by, helps the man to get up, feeds him, pays his hospital bills, sends money to his family, and sees that he gets back "on his feet" in every way.

Who is a brother to you?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Art, you know these answers. Your's are rhetorical questions right?
> 
> Just in case. Jesus is our brother because he is in the will of the Father as we are in the will of Jesus.
> 
> ...



Amen, I like your example story!


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand it's an offer of salvation from condemnation. I don't view refusing the offer as my condemnation. I was already condemned. Jesus is my salvation. If I refuse the salvation offer it's not the refusal that condemns me as I was already condemned.
> 
> I guess another way of saying it is "unbelievers" are already condemned. Even if they don't know they are unbelievers.



you are right, refusing salvation is like refusing a life preserver, You were already going to drown.

It is most like a pardon for the guilty


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If man must be born of flesh to enter the Kingdom then God would have to have incarnate as Jesus as a means to enter the Kingdom.
> 
> Jesus being 100% man was born of water but his flesh existence isn't eternal. He hasn't always been a man.



A sinner must be born of flesh, then born again of Spirit


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

welderguy said:


> The law of God is what would condemn us all because none of us can keep the law perfectly.If we break one part,we are guilty of it all.But according to Rom.8,Jesus has taken our condemnation upon Himself,if you are in Him.(elect)
> 
> Romans 8
> 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
> 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



Yet Romans 8 comes with the stipulation "who walk not after the flesh." 
Yet we are free from the Law of sin.

I can only believe that walking after the flesh means that I can save myself by works instead of repenting and believing that being in Christ has freed me from the Law of sin.

"and such were some of you but you were washed."


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

Walking after the flesh is not considering the Spiritual but the carnal selfish nature of ourselves and this worldly system.

God forgave all sin, past present and future.  You cannot earn  or keep salvation no more than someone on death row get a pardon by keeping their cell clean.


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## Madman (Aug 13, 2015)

Never known a dead man who was capable of catching a life preserver and putting it on.

_Ephesians 2:  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do._


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## marketgunner (Aug 13, 2015)

Right , but God allows us spiritual understanding so we can make spiritual decisions. He wouldn't require an answer from someone and then not give them the opportunity to decide.

I perceive you know this verse well.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

.
but notice how were are conformed to the image of His son, this is not salvation, because it is before they are even called.

It is a reference to being human. We are placed in a body, spiritually responsive, and placed in a place and time of God's choosing (predestinate).

Humanity is alive spiritually so we can react spiritually.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 13, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Right , but God allows us spiritual understanding so we can make spiritual decisions. He wouldn't require an answer from someone and then not give them the opportunity to decide.
> 
> I perceive you know this verse well.
> 
> ...



You see this as actually being with God before our physical birth and the Reformed see it as God predestining us to his image in foreknowledge only.

Would you consider our being children of God as spirits a form of election?


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## marketgunner (Aug 14, 2015)

no , I do not.  Election has been misplaced in doctrine.  We as the condemned ones that God foreknew (we were in Heaven) He did predestinate (decided where and when I was to get a body) he then called and then justified then glorified(restored)

Predestination is not being saved for Heaven but being made human in a certain place and time to be "called"


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about the people that know God by his creation/nature and are without excuse?
> They may know God by his creation/nature but may not know his Son. If they have never heard the Good News how can they believe?
> Does God elect without giving knowledge?



Yeah.  what about General Revelation ?  Does it condemn?
If so what about General Mills?   Is it a Mill or just a trademark and what bearing does it have on justification through faith, because the word 'Mill' would indicate 'works'? right?  And if works are involved would that nullify predestination?  And predestination and preterism seem to contradict each other with regards to annialiationism.  Doesn't that mean homosexuals have to work for justification!  If so that contradicts the doctrine of how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.  Doesn't this suggest doubt, which would suggest sin against the Holy Spirit?  Is it the one which is unpardonable, or just a common misdemeanor like......homosexuality which Paul said was normal for normal homosexuals, but not heterosexuals.  Do you think heterosexual relationships are just as bad as homosexual ones if it's actually homosexuals engaging in heterosexual acts?  And aren't homosexual atheist saved just like the repentant, because Jesus came to save the WHOLE world right?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 14, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah.  what about General Revelation ?  Does it condemn?
> If so what about General Mills?   Is it a Mill or just a trademark and what bearing does it have on justification through faith, because the word 'Mill' would indicate 'works'? right?  And if works are involved would that nullify predestination?  And predestination and preterism seem to contradict each other with regards to annialiationism.  Doesn't that mean homosexuals have to work for justification!  If so that contradicts the doctrine of how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.  Doesn't this suggest doubt, which would suggest sin against the Holy Spirit?  Is it the one which is unpardonable, or just a common misdemeanor like......homosexuality which Paul said was normal for normal homosexuals, but not heterosexuals.  Do you think heterosexual relationships are just as bad as homosexual ones if it's actually homosexuals engaging in heterosexual acts?  And aren't homosexual atheist saved just like the repentant, because Jesus came to save the WHOLE world right?



You just showed me a mirror or image of the person I am or have become. 
Hummerpoo pointed this out in post #144 on the Hebrews 13 thread although he was a little more to the point than you and diplomatic at the same time.  

Your post perhaps mirrors me to a tee.

I'm going to try and check what my motives are to insure it's not my pride or just pulling one's chain.
My pride and self I believe have overtaken me. For some strange reason I feel more spiritual tonight and less fleshy.

Mainly because I had a really , really, bad day. A day so bad that I should blame God but instead I'm going to praise him.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If so that contradicts the doctrine of how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.  right?



If a chicken and a half, can lay and egg & a half, in a day and a half;
How many days would it take a grasshopper, with a wooden leg, to to kick all of the seeds our of a dill pickle?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 15, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah.  what about General Revelation ?  Does it condemn?
> If so what about General Mills?   Is it a Mill or just a trademark and what bearing does it have on justification through faith, because the word 'Mill' would indicate 'works'? right?  And if works are involved would that nullify predestination?  And predestination and preterism seem to contradict each other with regards to annialiationism.  Doesn't that mean homosexuals have to work for justification!  If so that contradicts the doctrine of how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.  Doesn't this suggest doubt, which would suggest sin against the Holy Spirit?  Is it the one which is unpardonable, or just a common misdemeanor like......homosexuality which Paul said was normal for normal homosexuals, but not heterosexuals.  Do you think heterosexual relationships are just as bad as homosexual ones if it's actually homosexuals engaging in heterosexual acts?  And aren't homosexual atheist saved just like the repentant, because Jesus came to save the WHOLE world right?





Artfuldodger said:


> If a chicken and a half, can lay and egg & a half, in a day and a half;
> How many days would it take a grasshopper, with a wooden leg, to to kick all of the seeds our of a dill pickle?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If a chicken and a half, can lay and egg & a half, in a day and a half;
> How many days would it take a grasshopper, with a wooden leg, to to kick all of the seeds our of a dill pickle?



I think your ideas are awesome Art.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2015)

After the real sting my family got yesterday from a real adversary, I need them to watch this video too. I hope we can all turn our stings and bites into pain killers.
Thanks for sharing the video. Oh, and I see the grasshopper relation too!


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If a chicken and a half, can lay and egg & a half, in a day and a half;
> How many days would it take a grasshopper, with a wooden leg, to to kick all of the seeds our of a dill pickle?



Balsa or Oak?


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## Israel (Aug 30, 2015)

For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

This being...of being called "back to life"

Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

pleases God to show.

The God of the resurrection is also the God of resurrection

"I am the resurrection, and the life..."

Who he is is made in likeness in those who are his...he cannot deny himself.

Mercy of all...though power be awful, and even authority recognized...in all ways invites the deepest investigations.
Something there is that cannot be learned apart from learning mercy...and something there is that is required for mercy to be shown.

When sin is forgotten, when transgression not even discoverable...mercy is celebrated as not just something needed...but yet of substance true and worthy of eternal consideration and delight.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 30, 2015)

Israel said:


> For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
> 
> This being...of being called "back to life"
> 
> ...




This is very interesting?

"Who he is is made in likeness in those who are his...he cannot deny himself."

Who he is,
is made in likeness
in those who are his...

--------------------------------------------
"and now is[/COLOR], when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live."?

The dead shall hear the voice.
They that hear, ( the dead) shall live.

Will all the dead live?
---------------------------------------------

Can I add this:


  "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

I came to call sinners,
not to call the righteous.

There are two reasons ( or more) why there might be interference so that some sinners will not hear. 1) The message is not His, but a fake. 2. Sinners' hearing is severely damaged or distracted and the message is not understood or appreciated.

Why would some sinners not latch on to the wholesome faith? Do you have other ideas?


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## Israel (Aug 30, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> This is very interesting?
> 
> "Who he is is made in likeness in those who are his...he cannot deny himself."
> 
> ...



I am heartened that you said (or more)...for that is the place I find grace. 

For if/when I say "the fault is mine Lord, I do not represent you rightly..." I find I invite my own condemnation...for I also discover a presumptuousness that is an enemy of faith. Even if it be found to be my lack...I find it is more often through the miasma of spiritual brambles...which practically speaking belies the peace of which I have but merely tasted...but reveals the machinations of an unsettled mind in trying to "do better". The end is always the same, if not in revelation and mirror of experience..a silent waiting.
Likewise, I believe I needn't explain the condemnation that also comes if I presume the "error is in their attentions and apprehensions"...for they are as forgiven of those as I claim to be, so, for me to decide it is their lack that "stops up" my fount and inhibits "their" approach to the Lord...well, you are well aware that motes and logs have a certain exchange-ability to confound the most diligent. 

And I also find then I have added something to what I am told and being convinced is true in "For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."
So, "is it them? or me?" has become something of an exercise (which I freely admit still entices in places) is being destroyed daily and moment by moment by the revelation of our Lord. If  (or better, Since) Jesus bore in grace such contradiction against himself, his word, his testimony, his life...this truth impels me to grace. Am I greater than my Lord? Is it enough, truly...and in this I must emphasize the reality of the question to my soul...is it enough that the servant be as the Master? If I am puzzled, unsettled, irked, can it possibly be I have sought to "outstrip" my Lord? Am I not quite as content in being ignored, thought foolish, relegated to the heap of the superstitious or insane? If not, then why not?
If there be those of us who have not looked into eyes glazing over, watching gates shut though gaze in politeness still be aimed, these questions and considerations may seem moot. If there be those that have not felt lash when kindness (as best as understood) seems all in innocence offered, likewise.
Yes, I believe I have been down the "is it them or me?" road more than a few times.
But...this marvel of grace...this wonder of mercy, which you mention in the "(or more)" catches me, as though almost by trick, but which I now see providence. 
I cannot ever be set for the satisfying of self by my "self" or "their self"...but called in every moment to live before the face of all contentment...and there behold, and perhaps hear "it is good. It is very good" 
That the order of all my steps has always been to bring me to one, for one, by one, though steps have been faltering, bruises of shins and ego necessary...faithful are the wounds of a friend.
That he has made of himself an enemy of no man, I also find I needn't be my own.

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

O, Lord, thou alone knows.

And it is enough.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 31, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Why would some sinners not latch on to the wholesome faith? Do you have other ideas?


Repulsion. It is a stench of death.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 31, 2015)

Israel said:


> I am heartened that you said (or more)...for that is the place I find grace.
> 
> For if/when I say "the fault is mine Lord, I do not represent you rightly..." I find I invite my own condemnation...for I also discover a presumptuousness that is an enemy of faith. Even if it be found to be my lack...I find it is more often through the miasma of spiritual brambles...which practically speaking belies the peace of which I have but merely tasted...but reveals the machinations of an unsettled mind in trying to "do better". The end is always the same, if not in revelation and mirror of experience..a silent waiting.
> Likewise, I believe I needn't explain the condemnation that also comes if I presume the "error is in their attentions and apprehensions"...for they are as forgiven of those as I claim to be, so, for me to decide it is their lack that "stops up" my fount and inhibits "their" approach to the Lord...well, you are well aware that motes and logs have a certain exchange-ability to confound the most diligent.
> ...




Quote: ["Likewise, I believe I needn't explain the condemnation that also comes if I presume the "error is in their attentions and apprehensions"...for they are as forgiven of those as I claim to be, so, for me to decide it is their lack that "stops up" my fount and inhibits "their" approach to the Lord...well, you are well aware that motes and logs have a certain exchange-ability to confound the most diligent."
 ]


This is very interesting. It reminds me of one of the readings yesterday.

James 1:22-27New International Version (NIV)

22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23 Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like someone who looks at his face in a mirror 24 and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25 But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—they will be blessed in what they do.

26 Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.


And this is interesting. You do have a very interesting calling my friend. I envy you,  the you who is in the very good way.



Quote: ["I cannot ever be set for the satisfying of self by my "self" or "their self"...but called in every moment to live before the face of all contentment...and there behold, and perhaps hear "it is good. It is very good" 
]

Amen.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 31, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Repulsion. It is a stench of death.



Thanks. This is strikingly evident, repulsion that is. But your answer is all too short. (And I know you would have many reasons to be brief.) However, what death (s) have you observed are the source of repulsion (s)? Their's? Mine? Your's? Our's? His?

I assume that repulsion is an emotional-intellectual response to some traumatic event--as when a father does not "believe" because his  young daughter was decapitated in a road accident on her way to work one morning, for example. Or someone is scandalized that a loving "God" leaves and a million civilians die of starvation in the siege of Stalingrad.

But what is it that is traumatic in the Good News of the Kingdom? ---that it should repulse? Where is the death in that life? Is it the murderings of the middle ages? Bully pulpits? The split personalities of Zionist Christianity? The differing shapes that Christianity has given to cultures. Prosperity platforms? Naturism vs total depravity? Aggression and competition vs passivity. Freedom vs responsibility?


I think Paul once said that for some the Cross is foolishness.
But--- is not the cross exactly for these?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 31, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> But what is it that is traumatic in the Good News of the Kingdom? ---that it should repulse?


For the Christian, nothing. For the non-Christian, everything. In fact, it is not Good News for the non-Christian. It is very bad news.


gordon 2 said:


> I think Paul once said that for some the Cross is foolishness.
> But--- is not the cross exactly for these?


Not as long as it remains foolishness. Paul said that they are blind in the mind. When God shines the light of knowledge to the mind, foolishness is no more.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 31, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> For the Christian, nothing. For the non-Christian, everything. In fact, it is not Good News for the non-Christian. It is very bad news.
> 
> Not as long as it remains foolishness. Paul said that they are blind in the mind. When God shines the light of knowledge to the mind, foolishness is no more.



Good points. Thanks.


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## EverGreen1231 (Sep 1, 2015)

For the wages of sin is Death, but the gift of God is eternal life. The condemner also gave a way to escape the condemnation.


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## EverGreen1231 (Sep 1, 2015)

Israel said:


> I am heartened that you said (or more)...for that is the place I find grace.
> 
> For if/when I say "the fault is mine Lord, I do not represent you rightly..." I find I invite my own condemnation...for I also discover a presumptuousness that is an enemy of faith. Even if it be found to be my lack...I find it is more often through the miasma of spiritual brambles...which practically speaking belies the peace of which I have but merely tasted...but reveals the machinations of an unsettled mind in trying to "do better". The end is always the same, if not in revelation and mirror of experience..a silent waiting.
> Likewise, I believe I needn't explain the condemnation that also comes if I presume the "error is in their attentions and apprehensions"...for they are as forgiven of those as I claim to be, so, for me to decide it is their lack that "stops up" my fount and inhibits "their" approach to the Lord...well, you are well aware that motes and logs have a certain exchange-ability to confound the most diligent.
> ...



Beautifully said, Israel.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> For the wages of sin is Death, but the gift of God is eternal life. The condemner also gave a way to escape the condemnation.



Right. So what is this way for those who deem the cross and God man's foolishness and that in fact there is no such thing as eternal life, let alone it being a gift from an non entity?


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## EverGreen1231 (Sep 1, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Right. So what is this way for those who deem the cross and God man's foolishness and that in fact there is no such thing as eternal life, let alone it being a gift from an non entity?



They are without excuse.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 2, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Right. So what is this way for those who deem the cross and God man's foolishness and that in fact there is no such thing as eternal life, let alone it being a gift from an non entity?


"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."



True. Yet I would say that millions today all over the world have been born again and they have not seen the kingdom yet-- they have heard of it but perhaps have not occupied it consciously and have not engaged the world from this platform.

In fact I would venture to say that millions today who have been born again through baptism and the baptism  from individual believers of all denominations--a baptism that in every way is as Paul received in Damascus. Yet these millions have ruled that in the beginning was the word, but the word was not God. Or, that the word is man's consciousness and was never divine. The creator was something other that was before the word--if indeed there is a god at all.

They might believe in God but it is not the creature they see preached by the religious isms we know to derive from Abrahamism. They know not by evidence that Abraham's faith is legitimate of a loving, merciful and kind god that it's adherents put forward. Just the opposite is perceived.

As for the Kingdom you and I know, they claim it is not unique to the " enlightened" of religions all over the world. It is the Kingdom in one, Nirvana in another,  Enlightenment and Total Actualization in an other.

So if I am even partly correct that these even born again have have deemed Christianity suspect and have judged that Christianity's understanding of the everlasting past and the everlasting future as erroneous. They claiming that as man's conciousness  or the everlasting past(s) and future(s) and worlds past and worlds future, that it spans beyond one man's lifetime, beyond many generations and the lives of men born hundred, thousand, perhaps millions of yrs apart who share this "recollection" as part of their natural consciousness. That if there is a Creator this entity was before the word or man's consciousness and this renders the present Abrahamic traditions and religions erroneous and that if there is to be faith in the world it must be other than what we know it to be today. 

 So even for the born again who see this way, who come by it from no malice and with honesty what is this way for these who deem the cross and God man's foolishness in the communities where we live today, these that in fact claim there is no such thing as eternal life, that it can be explained scientifically-- that it is NOT a gift from an non entity?

As a Christian what is the way to reach them? Being born again yet fallen away are they fallen from our faith or simply fallen. Are they in a holding pattern from out perspective or are they doomed--these our children? What would Paul say or Jesus to the children of parents who created a world that says one thing and practices another--in the name of their strange god? 

Has our faith traditions become burdens to the people of faith, just as the traditions of the Pharisees were once deemed an obstruction to the wholesome spiritual nature of man? Who condemns my children and does not condemn me?


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## welderguy (Sep 2, 2015)

Gordon,
In reference to your post.

 Mat.7:21
"Not everyone who sayeth unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Gordon,
> In reference to your post.
> 
> Mat.7:21
> "Not everyone who sayeth unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."



What does that mean? It can't be works. How can one not do the will of his Creator? If the Potter makes a vessel for dishonor, then that vessel is doing the will of the Potter.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 2, 2015)

Gordon, does this passage speak directly to your inquiry? Quickening His people is His work; our part is simple.  We don't have to be smart, or wise in the eyes of men, or even called to the formal ministry (though called to the work we all are).  Welder identified those brought to "faith" by man's ability; Paul identified those brought to faith by God's power.

1 Cor:
2 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 
2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 
3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling,
4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 
5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Gordon,
> In reference to your post.
> 
> Mat.7:21
> "Not everyone who sayeth unto me Lord, Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."



Mark 3:35
Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

Hebrews 10:36
You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

1 John 2:17
The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.

Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is--his good, pleasing and perfect will.

Ephesians 5:17
Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is.

I guess even with Election, Eternal Salvation, and the fruit of the dwelling Spirit, we'd better be doing the "will of God" if we want to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. 

Maybe some verses where God does his will for his Creation.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2015)

God working his will for his Creation;

Colossians 1:9
For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you. We continually ask God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all the wisdom and understanding that the Spirit gives,

1 Thessalonians 5:18
give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD works out everything to its proper end-- even the wicked for a day of disaster.

Romans 8:27
And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God's people in accordance with the will of God.

OK, I'm feeling back at ease as I do the will of God.


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## welderguy (Sep 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What does that mean? It can't be works. How can one not do the will of his Creator? If the Potter makes a vessel for dishonor, then that vessel is doing the will of the Potter.



2 Pet.1:5-11(key verse 11) sheds much practical light on things we actively and diligently do to enter the kingdom.These are not works done to be saved (impossible).Notice the faith is already in place in these particular saints.Peter says they have "forgotten they were purged" and he wanted to stir them up.
As Gem pointed out, a person must be born again, (faith is given by God), then we are compelled to do the things Peter lists to enter the kingdom.
Jesus said the gate is narrow that enters the kingdom,and few find it.Most are content to go through the wide gate.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> 2 Pet.1:5-11(key verse 11) sheds much practical light on things we actively and diligently do to enter the kingdom.These are not works done to be saved (impossible).Notice the faith is already in place in these particular saints.Peter says they have "forgotten they were purged" and he wanted to stir them up.
> As Gem pointed out, a person must be born again, (faith is given by God), then we are compelled to do the things Peter lists to enter the kingdom.
> Jesus said the gate is narrow that enters the kingdom,and few find it.Most are content to go through the wide gate.



I would suggest that before we start those “active and diligent” things we might need to back up two more verses for some guidance on the source and power (as you said, compelled) by which they are done if they are to be of the narrow gate sort.  The wide gate is made in the world; the narrow gate is made in heaven.

1 Pet 1:
... To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness  , through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature  , having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.


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## welderguy (Sep 2, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> I would suggest that before we start those “active and diligent” things we might need to back up two more verses for some guidance on the source and power (as you said, compelled) by which they are done if they are to be of the narrow gate sort.  The wide gate is made in the world; the narrow gate is made in heaven.
> 
> 1 Pet 1:
> ... To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord; 3 seeing that His divine power has granted to us everything pertaining to life and godliness  , through the true knowledge of Him who called us by His own glory and excellence. 4 For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature  , having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.



Correct.I thought I established the source and power when I said they already had faith, which is given by God when we are born again.Maybe I wasn't clear.sorry.

Salvation is ALL of grace.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Correct.I thought I established the source and power when I said they already had faith, which is given by God when we are born again.Maybe I wasn't clear.sorry.
> 
> Salvation is ALL of grace.



I am more likely the one who needs to be apologizing.

When I read “things we actively and diligently do to enter the kingdom”, it brought to mind those who sometimes use the term Monergist, sometimes other monikers or buzz words, to indicate that they believe that God is the unconditional source of “salvation”; then  err, similar to the Deist, in denying Providence in the life of the “saved”; resulting in a gaggle of “christians” happily running around utilizing carnal means to collect money from carnal people, so they can have a jumbo Tron like the church across the street, or substituting entertainment for the Gospel to evangelize, and other such activities and purposes, with not a clue that the Indwelling Spirit that they profess to have received, results in works of the Spirit, not from the enthusiasm of the flesh, but generated and guided from within the Kingdom, which realm is the abode of all God’s children.  “If it works it was from God, if it doesn’t it wasn’t” is to test God.

A rich man can enter the kingdom of heaven, a camel can pass through the eye of a needle, and a child of God can produce works acceptable in the eyes of God.  “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”


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## welderguy (Sep 2, 2015)

Hummer,
What are your thoughts on the "rest" that is spoken of in Heb.3 and 4?
Do you think it's speaking of the kingdom also?

It keeps emphasizing belief to be able to enter into rest, showing examples of some, through their unbelief were not able to enter into rest.
Thoughts?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Gordon, does this passage speak directly to your inquiry? Quickening His people is His work; our part is simple.  We don't have to be smart, or wise in the eyes of men, or even called to the formal ministry (though called to the work we all are).  Welder identified those brought to "faith" by man's ability; Paul identified those brought to faith by God's power.
> 
> 1 Cor:
> 2 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God.
> ...



It does speak directly, yes.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Hummer,
> What are your thoughts on the "rest" that is spoken of in Heb.3 and 4?
> Do you think it's speaking of the kingdom also?
> 
> ...



I'm no Hummer, I was one, but now I try to memorize verses whole and chorus'expertly.

"Into the rest" as a place was exactly for me the Kingdom. I was no longer searching and alone. I remember well when I first put one foot in and then the next.

And before I knew it was the Kingdom, I knew I was looking for a place, a spiritual place that was real, tangible and where some were, I strongly suspected of, walking into and rooted there. Some were walking from there into the world, talking and speaking and thinking from there  --- for the ways they talked and walked were not of the world I was accustomed to.

 I remember well thinking they know a street, a high place, a meditation, a place of peace, another world, a world born out of prayer perhaps, which makes them all to have a wholesome disposition, a purpose in common that is greater than they or their kind could alone put together. "I don't know it yet", I said.  "But I what to know it. O I what to know it! I want to go there." And eventually at an evening bible study on Matthew and Moses sponsored by the church--- I did. I was in my thirties and am now in my sixties. ( The "rest" in Matthew is "the kingdom" and the rest with Moses is Canaan. Both are places set to receive believers.)

I thought it might be some kind of spiritual paradise at first, perhaps a feeling,  but it proved to be a kingdom not unlike any other kingdom in that it had a King, it had citizens, it had rules of the road, ( but not rules to burden saints), it had borders--but it was eternal, and everlasting both from the past and into the future. 

There was no calendar date on the King's reign and none on his kingdom--time there was as if absent and yet it was sensible to time and there lived both the saints in heaven and on earth. For it one could never be lost again. And it was now home when I found it--because I found it. It was a real place, it was His rest ( at least in this present life). It was spiritual Canaan except for promise of milk and honey --there was the sharing of bread and wine and the living God of promise.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 3, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Hummer,
> What are your thoughts on the "rest" that is spoken of in Heb.3 and 4?
> Do you think it's speaking of the kingdom also?
> 
> ...



I’m struggling to understand your meaning in the question.
I think the answer is yes, in the sense that God’s People enter into the Kingdom and God’s People enter into His rest; notwithstanding that I would not argue with some who define Kingdom in different terms (some others I would argue with).  That rest comes to His People through understanding, given by God, and faith, given by God, leading to confidence, peace, trust, etc., and negates, uncertainty, turmoil, doubt, etc.

“Thoughts?”
God’s Sabbath Rest is another of God’s wonders which He has shared with His People (like His power and His glory, elsewhere) (Heb. 4:3-5).

There is a shared responsibility among God’s People, both to find and embrace the called, and to maintain a Godly witness within the Body (3:12-19, 4:1,6,11); and those responsibilities a fulfilled through the power of Christ and His Word (4:12-16).

This rest is called a Sabbath rest (vs 9).  I would suggest these passages: Mat. 11:25-30; 12:3-8,11-21; Mk. 2:25-28; Josh. 22:1-6


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## hummerpoo (Sep 3, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> I'm no Hummer, I was one, but now I try to memorize verses whole and chorus'expertly.
> 
> "Into the rest" as a place was exactly for me the Kingdom. I was no longer searching and alone. I remember well when I first put one foot in and then the next.
> 
> ...



Well said brother.
Nah ... Beautifully said.
That stuff makes my old dry eyes leak.

Were you messing with me a while back when you said you didn't understand the sacrifices and offerings as shadows?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Well said brother.
> Nah ... Beautifully said.
> That stuff makes my old dry eyes leak.
> 
> Were you messing with me a while back when you said you didn't understand the sacrifices and offerings as shadows?



I don't recall this. Yet what was perhaps nebulous then as to sacrifices and offerings as shadows, ( many things are for me even on the best of days) is not now-- for you having pointed this out today.  no...  .

PS. I did not say it to say it beautiful, or to be said well, I said it as plain as I could as a witness to the truth of the Kingdom as the place of rest for believers.


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## Israel (Sep 6, 2015)

If I may...in regards to sacrifices and offerings, if only because this has been on my mind quite a bit lately.
(And I add this caveat, that the seeing of a thing does not mean its full apprehension. But, being seen, I think I may be learning...and then broken like bread in the midst of the brethren...somehow, by grace, by a miraculous power, this thing becomes the reality once only glimpsed)

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;

Our Lord, our first brother, preeminent in all things, yet willing to not keep to himself any good thing inherited, is established as the delight of our heart, the deepest longing made manifest among us, the one not ashamed to say of us..."this is now bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh" Of God we are given him as inheritance, yet he treats us not as thing, nor as other...but as true bride. I marvel.

This matter of sacrifice is plainly there. Both in what we call "Old", and "New". How much in mind of "Old" I have striven to understand "New", I can only confess...as sin?...ignorance?...blindness? pride? matters not much, except the confession be made. 

I remember a man much driven by this word, to see it executed rightly, to then lay that same striving...upon others. A giver of burden was he. If I were inclined to kindness I would say this man was so convicted of his own selfishness he could see nothing other than being pressed to sacrifice as his just remedy. 

If less than kind I could say this man was provoked by the truth into the manifestation of his deeper inclinations to bring all others into bondage. His misery, if not loved, surely desired...company. That such a man might use Christ to this end, the Christ of all liberty, as tool of capture, speaks only again of his depravity.
Such a man is rightly chastened, rebuked, and indeed, lashed.

The lash came in every endeavor to sacrifice, to be shown plainly the taint, the defect, the self... like poison seedling crouched, ready to spring forth in its own recognition..."I have made a sacrifice!"

The promise of rest. Almost like taunt were the words "I delight to do thy will O God". All this man knew of God was obligation. The"musts" and "have to's". Yet, there it stood, plainly, a testimony of a man who delighted; whose very breath, bread, and meat, were the will of God. O! To know him...to apprehend him. This man's discovery, this epiphany, this deliverance granted the chiefest of malefactors...twisters...connivers had come...not in command "Make sure everyone else knows me..."...but now in invitation..."You may know me".

I find Christ of book plainly speaking of his mission. It seems never far from him, despite all else he does and says, this singular purpose...to come...to die. It is more, it seems, than "crowning" achievement, more than mere display of fitting end to a life of self sacrifice. (Though in truth...the crowning of it is just that).
Even with all else stripped away, the healings, the glorious sermons and instructions to life, the works of compassion...this "one" thing stands always calling...always the "end" of his being here. And by end I mean purpose...not cessation.
Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

That very point. All else falls away in import, or better, is assigned its proper place relative to this one thing...this very hour. All else said and done is overshadowed by this hour. Indeed, the very bold might say it is this hour that causes anything previous to come to light.
This sacrifice.
Perfect in execution in every sense. Methodical in humiliation of all pertaining to man, in scorns and despisings, of robes placed, paraded, of crown fashioned, in crushing blows and tearing of flesh...both soul and body perfectly insulted...to death. And not a peep of self pity. Not a word of just recrimination escapes his lips. Not a word of derision toward all too blind to see, convinced they are doing God's will.

Against such all my "own" sacrifices mock me, deride me, indeed, parade me as the false. How plain it becomes...if "I must" keep up with him, I never shall. I am undone. Lost. My only part in this has been curious onlooker at best..."how, in God's name...does he/did he, do that?"

Yes, the sacrifice has caught me. Shown me what I am...and what I am not. It exposed all my emulations...and all that was not real, in its reality.

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life."

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

And in the midst of it all, in the midst of all that seems crushing obligation, in the center of all purposeful steps toward an end to which I can see no man accepting for himself, this is discovered:

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

"B-B-But Lord," I sputter, "would that not mean an abrogation of mission? Desertion?" Yet here I am also acutely aware this is not Jesus saying "I could summon"...or "By my power I could charge 12 legions..." But precisely what it says "I can ask, at any time of my Father..." (isn't this His whole idea...that you "have to" do this? How could he grant you in supplication release...from what is His own purpose? Even that you have stated...over and over. His agreement to send would mean...)

And now I glimpse, as through a glass dimly, that being caught by that sacrifice, though it provoked in me a desire to emulate, of which I always failed...now, through its meaning and purpose to capture has apprehended me for the apprehension of a something too marvelous for any words.

I must know of the relationship between Father and Son...this place where I, now we, find ourselves in bodies prepared for us, sent from true home...where we have always been called Son...and where all is done of love, and nothing...of obligation.

This is a silly thing, perhaps, but when I saw it, it spoke to this cub.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 6, 2015)

Israel said:


> If I may...in regards to sacrifices and offerings, if only because this has been on my mind quite a bit lately.
> (And I add this caveat, that the seeing of a thing does not mean its full apprehension. But, being seen, I think I may be learning...and then broken like bread in the midst of the brethren...somehow, by grace, by a miraculous power, this thing becomes the reality once only glimpsed)
> 
> Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me;
> ...



 “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do Your will, O my God;
Your Law is within my heart.”

Bold, Indeed.
Perhaps not excessively;
dim for this observer.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Hummer,
> What are your thoughts on the "rest" that is spoken of in Heb.3 and 4?
> Do you think it's speaking of the kingdom also?
> 
> ...





hummerpoo said:


> I’m struggling to understand your meaning in the question.
> I think the answer is yes, in the sense that God’s People enter into the Kingdom and God’s People enter into His rest; notwithstanding that I would not argue with some who define Kingdom in different terms (some others I would argue with).  That rest comes to His People through understanding, given by God, and faith, given by God, leading to confidence, peace, trust, etc., and negates, uncertainty, turmoil, doubt, etc.
> 
> This rest is called a Sabbath rest (vs 9).  I would suggest these passages: Mat. 11:25-30; 12:3-8,11-21; Mk. 2:25-28; Josh. 22:1-6



A little belated, but I should add this.

I was just now looking at some material provided by a loving Brother.  I think this is draws excellent distinctions between two examples of what is sometimes assumed to be our Sabbath rest, or Rest In Christ, and the true rest which our Father has provided to His People.

Contentment with God in Christ

What is a Saints contentment but to be content with God {“I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.” Phil.4:11,} and in God in all conditions. Herein is only a true rest; if it be in anything else but God, it is no true rest. If honor, or pleasure, or profit, or credit, or applause, or riches, or anything besides God doth give thee rest, thy rest and contentment is in the creature and not in God. On the contrary; if ye have poverty, disgrace, banishment, or imprisonment and enjoy God, he hath his rest still; because his contentment is not in and with the creature, but it is in and with God. God's will is his rest! He that lives in the will of God, he sees God's will is best for him; and his own will is so swallowed up in the will of God, and made one with it, that he hath no peace but in this. And this life he hath and enjoys not by reasoning himself into this condition; as, for a man to say thus; ‘this is God's will, and therefore I must be content; it is but a folly to resist his will; it must be so, and I cannot help it; therefore I had better be content than to fight and strive against it; for I cannot remove it until it please the Lord. Now this is not the contentment of Saints, but that which reason dictates to a man, which a man without grace may reach; and in this state of contentment most are satisfied, and take it to be a Saints submission, and contentment when it is not. But a Saints rest, contentment, and satisfaction is not from reason, but from a sweet enjoyment of God in every condition. His rest is not in this and that, but God in this and that! Paul Hobson {Practical Divinity, 1646}


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## welderguy (Sep 7, 2015)

Hummer,
I agree.I had to learn this^ the hard way and He's still teaching me(I'm a slow learner).
The wise man said everything under the sun is vanity and vexation of spirit,and I've come to realize that.Nothing can truly satisfy your soul except Jesus Christ.If we could just cease from our frantic searching in this world for things to satisfy us and just rest in the finished work of Jesus,then we will have true satisfaction.
He said there is an abundant life for His children and I believe even in the worst of physical conditions,it can be experienced in Him alone.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2015)

God is longsuffering.  He had Joshua demonstrate it and record it, Jesus teach it, Matthew and Mark record it, the letter to the Hebrews explain it, Br. Hobson, and who knows how many more preach it, and He still graciously leads us by the hand daily.


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