# Christianity without the veneer of rationality



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

This would never sell if people weren't indoctrinated into it from birth.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

Well, when you say it like that..........


----------



## applejuice (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Well, when you say it like that..........


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> This would never sell if people weren't indoctrinated into it from birth.



Lots of people convert as adults.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Lots of people convert as adults.



Yep and alot of people still think obama is a good president.  You can't cure stupid.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb?
Two.  But they're still in the dark.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 14, 2012)

Why do the words "rib woman" make me hungry?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Yep and alot of people still think obama is a good president.  You can't cure stupid.



Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid.



No, if still a person still thinks obama's good president, I can't help them, their stupid.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> No, if still a person still thinks obama's good president, I can't help them, their stupid.



This thread is not about Obama.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> No, if still a person still thinks obama's good president, I can't help them, their stupid.



I think it's the correlation to religion he was talking about.  Not many Obama fans on this forum.  I think one of y'all is, but he hasn't come out and said it that I know of.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think it's the correlation to religion he was talking about.  Not many Obama fans on this forum.  I think one of y'all is, but he hasn't come out and said it that I know of.



I know, I know, it was a low jab and I now I must apologize.  I'm sorry.  

There is, however, a similar rationalization that takes place.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> This would never sell if people weren't indoctrinated into it from birth.



There's more truth in that than you may think!


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I know, I know, it was a low jab and I now I must apologize.  I'm sorry.
> 
> There is, however, a similar rationalization that takes place.





It's all good.....I am abstaining from posting unicorn and elephant pics these days


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

I will say this, on this forum, it seems the atheists trend libertarian.  In my personal life, the atheists trend liberal.  Not saying one equals the other, just saying it's interesting.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Lots of people convert as adults.


Like me!!!


JB0704 said:


> Not many Obama fans on this forum.  I think one of y'all is, but he hasn't come out and said it that I know of.


 !!!


JB0704 said:


> I will say this, on this forum, it seems the atheists trend libertarian.  In my personal life, the atheists trend liberal.  Not saying one equals the other, just saying it's interesting.


Good post!!!


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I will say this, on this forum, it seems the atheists trend libertarian.  In my personal life, the atheists trend liberal.  Not saying one equals the other, just saying it's interesting.



I would say I'm a libertarian, I live by my golden rule:  Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and their own pursuit of happiness.  That is my biggest beef with the religious zealot. They cannot live and let be. They feel they are obligated to influence society, through legislation, with their brand of morals.   Most scream they are conservative, yet are not afraid to use the state for their own ends.  The political forum is filled with them. Their rationalization for state abuse is more nauseating than what takes place here. Thats why I hardly visit there anymore, they are hypocrits. Atleast here there is a great deal of consistency. Freedom scares alot of people.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I would say I'm a libertarian, I live by my golden rule:  Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and their own pursuit of happiness.  That is my biggest beef with the religious zealot. They cannot live and let be. They feel they are obligated to influence society, through legislation, with their brand of morals.   Most scream they are conservative, yet are not afraid to use the state for their own ends.  The political forum is filled with them. Their rationalization for state abuse is more nauseating than what takes place here. Thats why I hardly visit there anymore, they are hypocrits. Atleast here there is a great deal of consistency. Freedom scares alot of people.



Beleive me, I understand.  Most of my inner circle of friends are Christians....and I am a borderline objectivist politically speaking.  Many, many arguments about the role faith plays in gov't.  Everybody says "individual liberty" until they don't like what another person does with that liberty.  

The PF is fun.  Many are inconsistent, but they probably think I'm crazy too.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Beleive me, I understand.  Most of my inner circle of friends are Christians....and I am a borderline objectivist politically speaking.  Many, many arguments about the role faith plays in gov't.  Everybody says "individual liberty" until they don't like what another person does with that liberty.
> 
> The PF is fun.  Many are inconsistent, but they probably think I'm crazy too.



I believe you have a pretty good handle on things, well most anyway.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I believe you have a pretty good handle on things, well most anyway.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Lots of people convert as adults.



Most do when they hit rock bottom as adults, a life threatening illness, massive drug and alcohol addictions traumatic financial changes.. That's when they 'find' god, at the weakest most vulnerable time of their lives.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Most do when they hit rock bottom as adults, a life threatening illness, massive drug and alcohol addictions traumatic financial changes.. That's when they 'find' god, at the weakest most vulnerable time of their lives.



That is very true.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Most do when they hit rock bottom as adults, a life threatening illness, massive drug and alcohol addictions traumatic financial changes.. That's when they 'find' god, at the weakest most vulnerable time of their lives.



Yep, it tends to sell best to the desperate, the poor, and the uneducated.

Keep everything about the story but change the names and people would think you were nuts to believe such a thing.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> That is very true.



Another way to look at it is.. That's when the church preys upon them, sells them lies and converts their misfortune into political power and plain ol DollA's.. Cults work in the same exact way, funny huh?


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I will say this, on this forum, it seems the atheists trend libertarian.  In my personal life, the atheists trend liberal.  Not saying one equals the other, just saying it's interesting.



I've noticed the same thing. No surprise libertarians are in the minority since we are a minority in the general population. I'm not sure why there aren't more atheist conservatives than there are. Probably has to do with the fact that Christians still drive the social policy of the right.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Another way to look at it is.. That's when the church preys upon them, sells them lies and converts their misfortune into political power and plain ol DollA's.. Cults work in the same exact way, funny huh?



That is indeed another way to look at it.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I've noticed the same thing. No surprise libertarians are in the minority since we are a minority in the general population. I'm not sure why there aren't more atheist conservatives than there are. Probably has to do with the fact that Christians still drive the social policy of the right.



Wondered the same thing. I have an idea about it but I'd come off even more arrogant than usual so I'll keep it to myself..


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I've noticed the same thing. No surprise libertarians are in the minority since we are a minority in the general population. I'm not sure why there aren't more atheist conservatives than there are. Probably has to do with the fact that Christians still drive the social policy of the right.



I think the social policy has a lot to do with it in the U.S.  But, radical leftists tend to be very atheist as well, such as communist countries (generalizing, I know).  I think that has more to do with replacing one with another.  God for gov't.  And less to do with seeking individual liberty.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think the social policy has a lot to do with it in the U.S.  But, radical leftists tend to be very atheist as well, such as communist countries (generalizing, I know).  I think that has more to do with replacing one with another.  God for gov't.  And less to do with seeking individual liberty.



Don't know. I can't relate to radical leftists so it's hard for me to have any insight into what goes on in their heads. On average I think there is an intelligence gap between theists and atheists in the atheists favor. I don't know that the same can be said of political persuasion but both leftists and theists strike me as more oriented toward being more driven by emotion than critical thinking.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Don't know. I can't relate to radical leftists so it's hard for me to have any insight into what goes on in their heads. On average I think there is an intelligence gap between theists and atheists in the atheists favor. I don't know that the same can be said of political persuasion but both leftists and theists strike me as more oriented toward being more driven by emotion than critical thinking.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


>



I gotta say, Ive met some catastrophically STUPID bible thumpin Cristian Conservatives, I haven't met an Atheist of the same caliber of stuuuupid. Have you?
Seriously. I see many similar traits in Atheists,  race tolerance, educated, political ideology (tendency towards Libertarianism), but Its the opposite for the VERY religious. I see more bigots, racist and Republican Social Conservatives politically speaking.. You don't see it?

 I'm not at all saying either one group is 'all' that way, just the one's Ive met so far (Atheists), I haven't met a stupid one yet. 

That being said there are many religious people far more intelligent than I, but Ive met bus loads if religious idiots..


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

Don't know about others but my personal experience bears this out too. The most religious people I know tend to be the least educated. The most educated people I know are much less religious if they believe at all.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I'm not at all saying either one group is 'all' that way, just the one's Ive met so far (Atheists), I haven't met a stupid one yet.
> 
> That being said there are many religious people far more intelligent than I, but Ive met bus loads if religious idiots..



That's correct. We're talking averages here. Just because someone is a christian doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 14, 2012)

The Bible is full of anti-intellectual sentiment.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Don't know about others but my personal experience bears this out too. The most religious people I know tend to be the least educated. The most educated people I know are much less religious if they believe at all.



Somebody is going to come along and say "educated don't mean intelligent." (and in many ways they are correct)

But, we are in the Bible belt.  A majority of my friends are Christian.  And a majority of my friends have a college degree.  So I don't see a personal correlation, but I am aware of the studies that point it out.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Somebody is going to come along and say "educated don't mean intelligent." (and in many ways they are correct)
> 
> But, we are in the Bible belt.  A majority of my friends are Christian.  And a majority of my friends have a college degree.  So I don't see a personal correlation, but I am aware of the studies that point it out.



So then, take the 3 biggest idiots you've _ever_ met, in college or out and ....were they religious or Atheist?


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> So then, take the 3 biggest idiots you've _ever_ met, in college or out and ....were they religious or Atheist?



If most of the people he knows are religious then that slants the odds that the idiots will be religious. Approach it from the other direction. Of the friends who don't believe where would they tend to fall on the intelligence scale?


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> So then, take the 3 biggest idiots you've _ever_ met, in college or out and ....were they religious or Atheist?



The dumbest person I ever met was on a country road somewhere between Steinhatchee Florida and I-75.  I stopped long enough to tell them that they could not follow me to Atlanta, and that I was very sorry they were lost (this person had left Greenville S.C. that morning headed to Atlanta and somehow drove through Georgia, across Florida to Alabama, and was coming back across Florida looking for Atlanta).  I don't know what her faith was.

When I was in college, the number of idiots per capita was much higher than the "blue collar" jobs I have worked.  After high school, before college, I worked in residential construction with men who never even finished high school.  Some of those men were the smartest people I had ever met.  In college, the smart / idiot ratio was skewed to idiot.

Most of them were religious, because I went to a Christian college for my undergrad, and I live in the Bible belt, so my sample is going to be skewed.  I didn't talk about faith much in grad school.  That was "all business."


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Approach it from the other direction. Of the friends who don't believe where would they tend to fall on the intelligence scale?



I've said it before, most the atheists I know are very intelligent people.

But, for a personal correlation, I have also noticed most of them tend to be "rebels."  Against their childhood, education, church, parents, something.

Does that mean their rebellion drove their skepticism?  No, but it is an observation I have made within my personal sample of skeptics.


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Freedom scares alot of people.


 
Not me... but I'm answering "on topic"...

True freedom is why our Savior went to the cross; that we would be free from sin and the penalty it deserves.... and that kind of life & freedom scares a lot of _religious_ people. But that's for a different topic.


----------



## applejuice (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> But, for a personal correlation, I have also noticed most of them tend to be "rebels."  Against their childhood, education, church, parents, something.
> 
> Does that mean their rebellion drove their skepticism?  No, but it is an observation I have made within my personal sample of skeptics.



interesting 

Not sure what drove mine, but I have alot of it. Skepticism that is


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I've said it before, most the atheists I know are very intelligent people.
> 
> But, for a personal correlation, I have also noticed most of them tend to be "rebels."  Against their childhood, education, church, parents, something.
> 
> Does that mean their rebellion drove their skepticism?  No, but it is an observation I have made within my personal sample of skeptics.



No disagreement there.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I've said it before, most the atheists I know are very intelligent people.
> 
> But, for a personal correlation, I have also noticed most of them tend to be "rebels."  Against their childhood, education, church, parents, something.
> 
> Does that mean their rebellion drove their skepticism?  No, but it is an observation I have made within my personal sample of skeptics.



Yep this is me.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2012)

I wish an atheist would start a thread on their intellectual superiority to believers.This is very interesting stuff.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

This site provides some stimulating information on the subject.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/the-real-reason-atheists-have-higher-iqs

Among other things, it says this:
"In short, discussing correlations between IQ and religiosity without a grasp of the relevant underlying factors is something of a parlor game. It recalls the long and tiresome debate about the correlation between IQ scores and skin color that got a lot of people very excited but proved a scientific dead end."

According to their writers, no differences would be found in a comparason of atheists and Christians in USA because we all live on a level playing field.

As far as one atheist meeting a lot of really stupid Christians probably has a lot to do with one atheist meeting some Christians who disagreed with him.  And anyone who disagrees with an atheist is stupid?

*I'd be interested to know how many atheists have made a name for themselves in our national government, or economics, etc.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

Here's a small list of atheist world notables who became believers in God and are now Christians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_converts_to_Christianity_from_atheism


----------



## Nastytater (Aug 14, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I would say I'm a libertarian, I live by my golden rule:  Everyone has a right to life, liberty, and their own pursuit of happiness.  That is my biggest beef with the religious zealot. They cannot live and let be.



Thats funny,I thought the same exact thing about the atheists when i read the thread topic.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> This site provides some stimulating information on the subject.
> 
> http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the-human-beast/201005/the-real-reason-atheists-have-higher-iqs



Good read. He doesn't cite the "convoluted theories" that he is countering but his other factors are valid. I don't think the argument is so much that being religious makes one stupid but rather the more developed one's mental faculties and critical reasoning skills in particular the _less likely_ one is to be religious.



Ronnie T said:


> Among other things, it says this:
> "In short, discussing correlations between IQ and religiosity without a grasp of the relevant underlying factors is something of a parlor game. It recalls the long and tiresome debate about the correlation between IQ scores and skin color that got a lot of people very excited but proved a scientific dead end."
> 
> According to their writers, no differences would be found in a comparason of atheists and Christians in USA because we all live on a level playing field.



That isn't what the writer said at all.



> Of course, the same phenomena are relevant to comparisons within a country, although within-country differences in these factors are generally smaller. Even so, the wealthier individuals in a country experience life differently than the poorer ones, developing higher IQ scores and greater religious skepticism.






Ronnie T said:


> As far as one atheist meeting a lot of really stupid Christians probably has a lot to do with one atheist meeting some Christians who disagreed with him.  And anyone who disagrees with an atheist is stupid?



Straw man.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Good read. He doesn't cite the "convoluted theories" that he is countering but his other factors are valid. I don't think the argument is so much that being religious makes one stupid but rather the more developed one's mental faculties and critical reasoning skills in particular the _less likely_ one is to be religious.
> 
> That's not exactly what the man said either.
> 
> ...



Course, we look at it differently, you being atheist and I being Christian.  We don't think alike.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> That's not exactly what the man said either.



That is what I take away from this:



> It is certainly plausible that highly intelligent people would have a problem accepting some of the more improbable beliefs required by their church Moreover, modern science offers explanations for phenomena that were previously explained in terms of religion and intelligent people may prefer the scientific account.






Ronnie T said:


> Course, we look at it differently, you being atheist and I being Christian.  We don't think alike.



That is true. I was just pointing out that the correlation exists. The cause is open to debate.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Most do when they hit rock bottom as adults, a life threatening illness, massive drug and alcohol addictions traumatic financial changes.. That's when they 'find' god, at the weakest most vulnerable time of their lives.


 Weak,very weak.
Yea some do but some dont,,,simple!!!! "atheist are not nearly as opened minded as they claim to be".......If someone finds God at there lowest point.Whats wrong with that?Someone might find God at a low point but it sure dont mean they have to keep him.They can easily loose him as quickly as they found him.Right?So what is it that makes someone that doesn't know God and found him during a traumatic time in there life stick with God???


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I gotta say, Ive met some catastrophically STUPID bible thumpin Cristian Conservatives, I haven't met an Atheist of the same caliber of stuuuupid. Have you?
> Seriously. I see many similar traits in Atheists,  race tolerance, educated, political ideology (tendency towards Libertarianism), but Its the opposite for the VERY religious. I see more bigots, racist and Republican Social Conservatives politically speaking.. You don't see it?
> 
> I'm not at all saying either one group is 'all' that way, just the one's Ive met so far (Atheists), I haven't met a stupid one yet.
> ...


Sorry, I don't know what planet that's on but......Give me a break!!!


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Weak,very weak.
> Yea some do but some dont,,,simple!!!! "atheist are not nearly as opened minded as they claim to be".......If someone finds God at there lowest point.Whats wrong with that?Someone might find God at a low point but it sure dont mean they have to keep him.They can easily loose him as quickly as they found him.Right?So what is it that makes someone that doesn't know God and found him during a traumatic time in there life stick with God???


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


>



I think this 40 year old genious is filming this from his bedroom in his parents house, hope they don't catch him smoking, he could get a spanking.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

Since we were discussion the supposed obvious intellectual superiority of atheists, I decided to do a google of American inventions by atheists.  I couldn't find any outside of the science field.
Anyone know of any references?

.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
> 
> Don't know about others but my personal experience bears this out too. The most religious people I know tend to be the least educated. The most educated people I know are much less religious if they believe at all.


can you define intelligent for me???Can you define educated for me???Is being educated someone that can read and write ,add and subtract?Is intelligence being able to tear down a transmission then put it back together.Or is the atheist definition of intelligence?Someone believes in God,so they must be unintelligent........Some of the smartest people I've known were also some of the dumbest,fact.....Christian or non!!!Atheist just like to think there smarter than everyone else,it makes em feel better about themselves!!!


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


>



Good grief man......Please try harder!!!


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I think this 40 year old genious is filming this from his bedroom in his parents house, hope they don't catch him smoking, he could get a spanking.



He's like the riddler in batman......Crazy as a run over dog!!!


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> can you define intelligent for me???Can you define educated for me???Is being educated someone that can read and write ,add and subtract?Is intelligence being able to tear down a transmission then put it back together.Or is the atheist definition of intelligence?Someone believes in God,so they must be unintelligent........Some of the smartest people I've known were also some of the dumbest,fact.....Christian or non!!!Atheist just like to think there smarter than everyone else,it makes em feel better about themselves!!!:yeah:



Don't you think it's probably just the attitude that most any internet forum atheist is probably going to have?  The sarcasm, the speaking down to?

.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Don't you think it's probably just the attitude that most any internet forum atheist is probably going to have?  The sarcasm, the speaking down to?
> 
> .


Yea......that too


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

Goodness I must have struck a nerve.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 14, 2012)

Historically.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Good grief man......Please try harder!!!



That video pretty well answers your questions both concerning what is wrong with latching onto comforting delusion in a moment of desperation and why it is tempting to not let go after the fact. The point is, when someone is in excruciating mental or physical pain is not the ideal time for considering matters rationally and without prejudice.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> He's like the riddler in batman......Crazy as a run over dog!!!



He didn't sound crazy. He sounded intelligent and compassionate and showed great empathy for the people he was talking about. . He made_ sense_.. _Heaps_ of it.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> That video pretty well answers your questions both concerning what is wrong with latching onto comforting delusion in a moment of desperation and why it is tempting to not let go after the fact. The point is, when someone is in excruciating mental or physical pain is not the ideal time for considering matters rationally and without prejudice.



There's also ego, embarrassment, the thought of wasted time and commitment. Its easier for some to just hang on then face the reality of letting go of that they have clung onto during a time of need. Co-dependance of sorts.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> The point is, when someone is in excruciating mental or physical pain is not the ideal time for considering matters rationally and without prejudice.


So when is?


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> He didn't sound crazy



Yea he did.....He talked in circles!!!I think he might have been smoking something besides that cig too!!!


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> He didn't sound crazy. He sounded intelligent and compassionate and showed great empathy for the people he was talking about. . He made_ sense_.. _Heaps_ of it.



I'm betting there are people reading this who know exactly what kind of moment he is referring to.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

Figured I'd throw y'all a bone..


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 14, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Yea he did.....He talked in circles!!!I think he might have been smoking something besides that cig too!!!



I feel for ya man. I do. You seem absolutely 'blissful' enjoy it.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> So when is?



When you're prepared and willing to ask the questions that must be asked and accept the answers whatever they may be. A parent who has just lost their child is not likely to be in a mental state of accepting the possibility that the separation is forever. It would be like expecting a thirsty man in the desert to not believe that the mirage off in the distance isn't an oasis. He _needs_ the comfort and hope that the illusion brings him at that moment.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 14, 2012)

Ronnie T said:
			
		

> As far as one atheist meeting a lot of really stupid Christians probably has a lot to do with one atheist meeting some Christians who disagreed with him. And anyone who disagrees with an atheist is stupid?



...and it goes round and round.  Why are we as non-believers considered pitiable souls that only need be shown "the way" to be "redeemed"?  I've been looked upon as foolish and stupid by many a Christian for not believing... as a matter of fact the majority of the really devout Christians I know are some of the most intolerant people of others' rights and opinions of any people that I have ever met.

I don't feel that Christians are stupid for believing as they do, worship whatever you like, I don't care.  It's the arrogant "I know better than you" attitude that bothers me.  Believe what you what, but respect my right to have different beliefs...


----------



## bullethead (Aug 15, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Since we were discussion the supposed obvious intellectual superiority of atheists, I decided to do a google of American inventions by atheists.  I couldn't find any outside of the science field.
> Anyone know of any references?
> 
> .



I would guess that most Atheists do not wear their belief or non belief status like a patch on their shoulder and include it with things they have done. They don't slip it in wherever they can for all to know.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 15, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I would guess that most Atheists do not wear their belief or non belief status like a patch on their shoulder and include it with things they have done. They don't slip it in wherever they can for all to know.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 15, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> ...and it goes round and round.  Why are we as non-believers considered pitiable souls that only need be shown "the way" to be "redeemed"?  I've been looked upon as foolish and stupid by many a Christian for not believing... as a matter of fact the majority of the really devout Christians I know are some of the most intolerant people of others' rights and opinions of any people that I have ever met.
> 
> I don't feel that Christians are stupid for believing as they do, worship whatever you like, I don't care.  It's the arrogant "I know better than you" attitude that bothers me.  Believe what you what, but respect my right to have different beliefs...



Well said. I have seen and felt that intolerance displayed here on GON.  Some think they have exclusive right to define things as spiritual, moral, and ethical based on their view just becuase they call themselves christian.  They are all to quick to judge and scold those whose disagree.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 15, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> ...and it goes round and round.  Why are we as non-believers considered pitiable souls that only need be shown "the way" to be "redeemed"?  I've been looked upon as foolish and stupid by many a Christian for not believing... as a matter of fact the majority of the really devout Christians I know are some of the most intolerant people of others' rights and opinions of any people that I have ever met.
> 
> I don't feel that Christians are stupid for believing as they do, worship whatever you like, I don't care.  It's the arrogant "I know better than you" attitude that bothers me.  Believe what you what, but respect my right to have different beliefs...



I have to agree with you!  You're totally correct.

But those are the ways of internet forums.  Both sides of the isle are guilty of speaking down to the other.
It would be great if you could simply get an insight into how Christians "think" as they live by faith.
It would be great if we believers could get an insight into how atheists "think" as they live life in complete randomness with no real connection to the past nor the future.
But our conversations are never able to begin and end with those sorts of attitudes.  Something is said that causes our chest to swell and our brow to sweat.

I will make this promise to you, and I don't often promise......  The extreme majority of Christians don't have negative feelings towards those who do not believe as they do.  They don't.  There is a very small percentage of Christians who will spend their entire lives involved in biblical arguing, with anyone who will argue with them.  

But the vast majority of Christians will be very good neighbors for you.  They will speak highly of you in the neighborhood, if you're a good person.  They might constantly invite you to church worship or socials; but they don't do it in order to indoctrinate you, they just want you to know God and be able to experience Him as they already have.

Every Christian began as an unbeliever.  We aren't Christians today because we're so perfect.  We aren't.  We got problems.  Personal problems, family problems, church problems.  Your social morals might be higher than many Christians I know.

Now, I kinda feel like we should hug necks or something now, but you might not be into that sort of thing.
Know this, that atheists are not enemy's of the church.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 15, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to agree with you!  You're totally correct.
> 
> But those are the ways of internet forums.  Both sides of the isle are guilty of speaking down to the other.
> It would be great if you could simply get an insight into how Christians "think" as they live by faith.
> ...



Come on now.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 15, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I have to agree with you!  You're totally correct.
> 
> But those are the ways of internet forums.  Both sides of the isle are guilty of speaking down to the other.
> It would be great if you could simply get an insight into how Christians "think" as they live by faith.
> ...



Great post.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 15, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Come on now.



Then you can change my impression.   

.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 15, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Then you can change my impression.
> 
> .



I just know better from the way I have been treated.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> When you're prepared and willing to ask the questions that must be asked and accept the answers whatever they may be. A parent who has just lost their child is not likely to be in a mental state of accepting the possibility that the separation is forever. It would be like expecting a thirsty man in the desert to not believe that the mirage off in the distance isn't an oasis. He _needs_ the comfort and hope that the illusion brings him at that moment.



So if someone has had a tragedy in there life or a traumatic event happen to them and going to a church or finding God makes them feel better or helps them overcome there grief.....Please explain to me whats wrong with that?????????


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 15, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> So if someone has had a tragedy in there life or a traumatic event happen to them and going to a church or finding God makes them feel better or helps them overcome there grief.....Please explain to me whats wrong with that?????????



I think that is addressed in the video I posted. If you still don't see it then maybe substituting the faith you believe is true with the adoption of some now defunct mythology might give you the proper perspective.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> So if someone has had a tragedy in there life or a traumatic event happen to them and going to a church or finding God makes them feel better or helps them overcome there grief.....Please explain to me whats wrong with that?????????





atlashunter said:


> I think that is addressed in the video I posted. If you still don't see it then maybe substituting the faith you believe is true with the adoption of some now defunct mythology might give you the proper perspective.


Sorry i couldnt watch anymore than about 2 minutes of the video......Can you please answer,in your own words the question that i asked in the above post???


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 15, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Sorry i couldnt watch anymore than about 2 minutes of the video......Can you please answer,in your own words the question that i asked in the above post???



You mean to tell me you went off half cocked on the video without even watching it? 

I really do recommend skipping past the first 2 minutes and listening to the rest of what he has to say. He might surprise you.

The short answer is, yes it may help a person get through a very trying time in life and that isn't to be taken lightly but it also carries with it a risk of latching onto a falsehood that will be carried through life and spread to others. That risk is there even if there is a god. Just watch the video and then let's see if you think the points are way off base.


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You mean to tell me you went off half cocked on the video without even watching it?



Yea ,you asking me to watch that video in it's entirety is like me asking you to watch a Billy Graham crusade.See the correlation there?


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> it also carries with it a risk of latching onto a falsehood that will be carried through life and spread to others.



If you truly believe it how can it be a falsehood?


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> that will be carried through life and spread to others. That risk is there even if there is a god. Just watch the video and then let's see if you think the points are way off base.



Thats one of a Christians goals....To spread the gospel to others.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 15, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> If you truly believe it how can it be a falsehood?



Wow! Sure you don't want to rephrase that?


----------



## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Wow! Sure you don't want to rephrase that?



Nope.....I truly believe theres a God so nothing you say or do can convince me otherwise, i believe it to be a truth.You on the other hand dont believe in God so you believe it to be a falsehood.


----------



## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 15, 2012)

> Now, I kinda feel like we should hug necks or something now, but you might not be into that sort of thing.
> Know this, that atheists are not enemy's of the church.



Why, I'd be glad to hug your neck Ronnie!

And the church is no enemy of mine, I just get frustrated with some it's followers from time to time.  

Beers to you as well...


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 15, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> If you truly believe it how can it be a falsehood?



A falsehood is a falsehood whether you believe it to be true or not.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 15, 2012)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Why, I'd be glad to hug your neck Ronnie!
> 
> And the church is no enemy of mine, I just get frustrated with some it's followers from time to time.
> 
> Beers to you as well...



I preshate that.


----------



## ted_BSR (Aug 16, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I just know better from the way I have been treated.



How do you treat others?


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 17, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> How do you treat others?



The way they deserve to be treated.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 17, 2012)

Interesting 'definition'.....here are a few others I found.




*Capitalism:*
_A system of economics where large entities compete to establish barriers to trade, lobby government to help them and hurt other businesses, control a country's political outcomes through financing its politicians, extract maximum profits from labor and other inputs, deceive customers about their products, and prevent other businesses from getting started or otherwise competing._






*Liberal:*
_One who is generous; one who favors greater freedom in political or religious matters.  On who is free from prejudice or narrow thinking._


















I suppose it's all in perspective....now isn't it?



...I'm guessing that there are several billion people on this planet that would say that, if we weren't indoctrinated to believe that capitalism was wonderful from birth, we'd think differently...but that's just me.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 17, 2012)

Huntinfool, that's pretty good stuff.
Perspective.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 17, 2012)

Well if we are all entitled to our own definitions perhaps you'll share which parts of the OP you consider to be untrue, from your perspective of course. The more you scratch off the list as a load of bull the closer our perspectives become.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 17, 2012)

You're certainly entitled to your own definition.  We're all very aware of that.

I actually didn't indicate that anything was untrue did I?  But since you ask...


#1 Jesus was not a zombie.
#2 You are not saved by taking communion
#3 He doesn't remove an evil force, he attoned for our sins and redeemed us.  But sin is still very much here.  You and I are living proof of that.


If you take the anger and sarcasm out of what you posted, some of it might be in line with what Christians believe.  As I said, it's all in perspective.  You can say things that are very true two different ways and imply or mean two very different things.

I'll give you one more modern day example.  Does Paul Ryan want to push Granny off a cliff?  Listen to the two sides tell the same story and you'll never know the answer.  Perspective is a very cosmic, magical, zombie kind of thing ain't it?

I'll be the first to admit...I'm indoctrinating my kids.  I'll claim that all day long.  I'm indoctrinating my children so that they know the foundational truths of Christianity.  I'm brainwashing them to believe what I believe.  That's my job.  I'm their dad....The magical Jewish zombie told me to in his mystical magical book (Duet and Titus to be specific along with some other places).

We've had this discussion before in here.  There are some in here who actually claim (with a straight face) that they aren't indoctrinating their kids in any way.  That's about as laughable as a liberal saying they are "open minded".


----------



## ted_BSR (Aug 18, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> The way they deserve to be treated.



It comes around and goes around.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 19, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> You're certainly entitled to your own definition.  We're all very aware of that.
> 
> I actually didn't indicate that anything was untrue did I?  But since you ask...
> 
> ...



If a zombie is a corpse that comes back to life then yeah Jesus is a zombie according to Christians. Of course they don't like that name because it makes obvious just how absurd the claim is but the shoe is a perfect fit.

The second point I agree with. Christians don't claim that is a criteria to be saved but it is still a disgusting symbolic practice when you think about it.

For the third point maybe they should have phrased it that the zombie is your personal scapegoat and you must be washed in his blood.




Huntinfool said:


> I'll be the first to admit...I'm indoctrinating my kids.  I'll claim that all day long.  I'm indoctrinating my children so that they know the foundational truths of Christianity.  I'm brainwashing them to believe what I believe.  That's my job.  I'm their dad....The magical Jewish zombie told me to in his mystical magical book (Duet and Titus to be specific along with some other places).
> 
> We've had this discussion before in here.  There are some in here who actually claim (with a straight face) that they aren't indoctrinating their kids in any way.  That's about as laughable as a liberal saying they are "open minded".



That's a shame. I hope for their sake they are able to learn enough critical thinking skills for themselves to overcome your brainwashing.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> If a zombie is a corpse that comes back to life then yeah Jesus is a zombie according to Christians. Of course they don't like that name because it makes obvious just how absurd the claim is but the shoe is a perfect fit.
> 
> The second point I agree with. Christians don't claim that is a criteria to be saved but it is still a disgusting symbolic practice when you think about it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 20, 2012)

If you two have kids...

What if your kid, when they were 4, came into your house and said "Dad....I'm glad you taught me how to think critically.  I've done the research and I'm convinced that God exists and that he's the one talked about in the Bible.".

I suppose you would, then, support that position without fail?  I mean...if you redirected that faulty thinking....you'd kind of be.....gasp....indoctrinating them.  Teaching them to believe as you do?


No, nevermind...I'm sure you don't do that.


For my part, I hold the exact position that you do.  I hope that your children grow up to have enough critical thinking skills to overcome the brainwashing in your home.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> If you two have kids...
> 
> What if your kid, when they were 4, came into your house and said "Dad....I'm glad you taught me how to think critically.  I've done the research and I'm convinced that God exists and that he's the one talked about in the Bible.".
> 
> ...



You mean the anti-brainwashing brainwashing commonly called education?

At 4, she can believe in unicorns, but monsters under the bed, absolutely not.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> If you two have kids...
> 
> What if your kid, when they were 4, came into your house and said "Dad....I'm glad you taught me how to think critically.  I've done the research and I'm convinced that God exists and that he's the one talked about in the Bible.".
> 
> ...



I 'd ask them to provide reasons, and evidence to support their conclusions. When they can't (which we all know can't be done) I will present arguments to the contrary.  If they still believe after that, that is their perogative, and I will not have a problem.  Unlike you I will not be pushing my children either way, it is something they must arrive to on their own accord, or it really isn't their belief, it is their indoctrination.  I want better for my kids.  I do not want them to believe as I do just becuase I taught them to believe as I do. I want them to beleive as I do becuase they reached the same logical conclusion as Idid.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> For my part, I hold the exact position that you do.  I hope that your children grow up to have enough critical thinking skills to overcome the brainwashing in your home.



Everybody indoctrinates their kid to some extent. I think it's interesting that teaching a kid faith is somehow akin to removing their critical thinking skills.  There have been many wonderful people throughout history who believed in a higher power.......because they were "indoctrinated."

How else do I "indoctrinate" my kids?

I teach my son that soccer is the worst game ever created.  On the inverse, I teach him that baseball is the greatest.

I teach my kids that it is ok to kill animals if we are going to eat them.  Many would find this a cruel lesson.....but I started it very young.

I teach both my kids that fishing is an awesome way to spend one's free time.  Some would find this boring....but they both caught their first fish when they were two.

I teach both my kids that guns are ok if handled properly, and to be respected, and dangerous if not.  Many would find this a hazardous indoctrination.  Again, I started my son on a bb gun when he was 5, and my daughter will get one at the same age.  My son has since graduated to high-powered rifles.

I teach both my kids that college is very important, and should be pursued regardless of one's chosen profession.  Nobody has ever been hurt by having a college degree.  Some would think I am indoctrinating them to be what I want them to be.....I think I am trying to help them keep as many doors open as possible.

The list goes on, and on.  But, we all indoctrinate our kids.  Passing on our beliefs is a priviledge of parenting.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You mean the anti-brainwashing brainwashing commonly called education?


Kids,

In this exercise Mr. Ambush uses a different word for indoctrinating his children, can you guess which word he uses?


Kids yell......... EDUCATION!


Great jobs kids, you're all correct!


So, you kids be sure when your talking to people that say that your parents are indoctrinating you into the Christian faith, be sure and tell them they your parents are simply educating you.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Everybody indoctrinates their kid to some extent. I think it's interesting that teaching a kid faith is somehow akin to removing their critical thinking skills.  There have been many wonderful people throughout history who believed in a higher power.......because they were "indoctrinated."
> 
> How else do I "indoctrinate" my kids?
> 
> ...



You can make a rational argument about all of those things.  You can show them a chart.  Not so for matters of 'faith'.

Faith asks you to suspend your rational thinking; to accept something without evidence that everybody can experience.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Kids,
> 
> In this exercise Mr. Ambush uses a different word for indoctrinating his children, can you guess which word he uses?
> 
> ...



Yes.  The Bible will be on the suggested reading list.  By the time that it is age appropriate, there will be little doubt about what realm talking snakes and resurrections are in.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Faith asks you to suspend your rational thinking; to accept something without evidence that everybody can experience.



I disagree, but, then, we have been through that a bunch.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Yes.  The Bible will be on the suggested reading list.  By the time that it is age appropriate, there will be little doubt about what realm talking snakes and resurrections are in.



Just hope they don't turn out to be another Ravi Zacharias, he didn't get his hands on a Bible until late in his teen years. You'll probably want to wait and let them read it when they're at least 20, just to be on the safe side.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

We saw a dead bird the other day and I explained what 'dead' is.  A pox upon me should I ever tell her that that natural process has ever been reversed.  And what would my basis for such a claim be?  Poor little children who have been told those things.....


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Just hope they don't turn out to be another Ravi Zacharias, he didn't get his hands on a Bible until late in his teen years. You'll probably want to wait and let them read it when they're at least 20, just to be on the safe side.



A mature 12 or 15.  About the same time they can read and understand The Illiad.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I disagree, but, then, we have been through that a bunch.



You believe in god through a rational process; it's untestable and your 'best guess'; like String Theory.  I can respect that.  That you would hinge so much on that seems weird to me.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 20, 2012)

I love it.  

"education" is anti-indoctrination.  Good grief I hope you're kids don't go to public school my man.  That is the BIRTHPLACE of indoctrination.

I brainwash...you educate.  Fan-tastic.




> I will present arguments to the contrary.



If we're talking about a 4 year old, Bishop (and that's what the discussion was about), you actually believe that when a father presents "arguments to the contrary" about ANYTHING, that a four year old isn't going to believe it hook, line and sinker?"  

Guess what my friend....you indoctrinate your kids.  Fight against that phrase all you want.  You indoctrinate your children.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You believe in God through a rational process; it's untestable and your 'best guess'; like String Theory.  I can respect that.  That you would hinge so much on that seems weird to me.



Don't you think that the contrary could be said or your position?

That you would hinge so much on your "best guess" seems odd to us as well.  I don't play the 'razor' game.  But the logic follows exactly from what you just said.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> A mature 12 or 15.  About the same time they can read and understand The Illiad.



Great book!


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> "education" is anti-indoctrination.  Good grief I hope you're kids don't go to public school my man.  That is the BIRTHPLACE of indoctrination.



Before I put my kdis in a private school, my son came home one day and asked me if I cared more about money or global warming.  I said money.  And I knew something had to change.  

I started teaching him capitalism, and individualism, and eventually I decided that I would rather him be "indoctrinated" in a Christian, pro-capitalist, school then a gov't school.

Now, I do have to "counter" things he is taught in his private school with information to the contrary.  But, no situation is perfect, and I would be more afraid of raising a child dependant on the gov't than a child full of incorrect scientific information.  He will learn all the science he needs to draw his conclusions at home watching the nat. geo. channel, and when he goes to college.  

And when he decides what he believes, it will be because he had all the information available....including what I believe.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> That you would hinge so much on that seems weird to me.



But, what am I "hinging" on it?  I can die, and be dust, and no worse for believing in God.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I love it.
> 
> "education" is anti-indoctrination.  Good grief I hope you're kids don't go to public school my man.  That is the BIRTHPLACE of indoctrination.
> 
> ...



First I didn't know we are talking about a four year old. At that age they are going to believe anything their parents tell them.  They don't have their own opinions on such things, nor the ability to question the integrity of the things taught to them.  At that age it is brainwashing, and they really don't have the ability to choose.  

I will stick to teaching the basics of reading, writing and arithmetic.  As they get older I will help them develop the ability to question,and  philosophize to form their own answers.  

Do I indoctrinate my children?  Not in propaganda that has no logical basis in reality.  I don't expect them to believe being a fiscal conservative is right becuase I tell them so. I expect them to believe based on the evidence and arguements I present, that makes perfect 100% logical sense to them. If you can say that about christianity you are fooling yourself or esle the entire world would be christians. You have to have faith to fill in the gaps in logic (what little I see, most is rationalization).  I will not ask them to have faith in rationalizations, if they do its their choice, and I certainly would not do it at an age were they cannot think for themselves.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Do I indoctrinate my children?  Not in propaganda that has no logical basis in reality.  I don't expect them to believe being a fiscal conservative is right becuase I tell them so. I expect them to believe based on the evidence and arguements I present, that makes perfect 100% logical sense to them. *If you can say that about christianity you are fooling yourself or esle the entire world would be christians.* You have to have faith to fill in the gaps in logic (what little I see, most is rationalization).  I will not ask them to have faith in rationalizations, if they do its their choice, and I certainly would not do it at an age were they cannot think for themselves.


Does that same line of logic go for fiscal conservatism as well?


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Does that same line of logic go for fiscal conservatism as well?



Point taken.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I love it.
> 
> "education" is anti-indoctrination.  Good grief I hope you're kids don't go to public school my man.  That is the BIRTHPLACE of indoctrination.
> 
> ...



The type of indoctrinating you do is: 

_to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle_ 

If I tell her that if one drops a rock it will fall to the ground, I have educated her.  We can go outside and test it.  We can try different objects.   I can expose her to what others have observed about objects falling.

How can I convince her that a man rose himself from the dead?  All I can offer her would be "Well little Maya, your mother and I believe this happened and you should too."  That's no education.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> How can I convince her that a man rose himself from the dead?  All I can offer her would be "Well little Maya, your mother and I believe this happened and you should too."  That's no education.


Tell her it's historically documented, and that lot's of people saw Him die on the cross and then lot's of people saw Him days later.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Tell her it's historically documented, and that lot's of people saw Him die on the cross and then lot's of people saw Him days later.



But thats not entirely true. Someone wrote about what  someone else says they saw happen many, many years later, and there is no way to validate that such an illogical, unreplicable, and otherwise impossible event even took place.   That kind of changes the weight of such a statement when you place it in context.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> But thats not entirely true.


It is entirely true, read the bible, it's in there, you just don't accept the evidence to back the claim up, and that's fine, but that does not take away the fact the it is historically documented.

I could say I don't believe Abraham Lincoln was assassinated because I wasn't there to watch it happen and anyone who wrote anything about it was lying to push their agenda, but that wouldn't hold much water with anyone would it?


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> The type of indoctrinating you do is:
> 
> _to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle_
> 
> ...



Yep, that's exactly the indoctrinating that I do....and so do you.

I suppose little Maya doesn't ever hear an opinion from you?  Ever?  Nothing ever spoken in her presence that many (if not most) people would disagree with?

Take String's fiscal conservativism....not planning on talking with her about anything like that?  "Just the facts" huh?

You just made a fantastic straw man argument.  Problem is....we both teach our kids that if you drop a rock, it will fall.  We both teach...we both indoctrinate.  The only difference is that I will admit it.


----------



## pbradley (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I will say this, on this forum, it seems the atheists trend libertarian.  In my personal life, the atheists trend liberal.  Not saying one equals the other, just saying it's interesting.



It's a spectrum. Sharon Harris, the libertarian President of the Advocates for Self Government, is a Christian Libertarian, as is her husband Jimmy, I believe.

Michael Cloud, an extraordinarily gifted speaker and persuader of libertarian ideas, is about as atheist as they come. I believe his partner, Carla Howell, is also.

I've met and worked with hundreds of libertarians / Libertarians, and they run the full range from Christian to agnostic to Deist to atheist and just about every religion in between.

I think I'm about as libertarian as they come, but first and foremost, I'm born again, washed in the blood and saved by grace. My sig line says it all for me.

Atlas, bigredd, if y'all think I'm stupid for it, that's fine by me.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> It is entirely true, read the bible, it's in there, you just don't accept the evidence to back the claim up, and that's fine, but that does not take away the fact the it is historically documented.
> 
> I could say I don't believe Abraham Lincoln was assassinated because I wasn't there to watch it happen and anyone who wrote anything about it was lying to push their agenda, but that wouldn't hold much water with anyone would it?



The fact that you said historically accurace means its entirely false.  If it was entirely accurate we would have never had this forum.  Lincoln assissination was documented by people that were there and by people who talked to multiple eye witnesses.  Not even a remotely close comparison.


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> The fact that you said historically accurace means its entirely false.


Even though I obviously believe Jesus' crucifixion to be historically accurate, I did not use that term in my post, I just said it was historically documented.



> If it was entirely accurate we would have never had this forum.  Lincoln assissination was documented by people that were there and by people who talked to multiple eye witnesses.  *Not even a remotely close comparison*.



It is the EXACT same comparision.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> It is the EXACT same comparision.



It is not even close. We have mutiple accounts from people that were actually there. We have nothing of the sort of the death and ressurrection (or lack thereof).


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> It is not even close. We have mutiple accounts from people that were actually there. We have nothing of the sort of the death and ressurrection (or lack thereof).



....or ever, EVER an example of someone coming back from the dead.  It doesn't happen and it never has.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Yep, that's exactly the indoctrinating that I do....and so do you.
> 
> I suppose little Maya doesn't ever hear an opinion from you?  Ever?  Nothing ever spoken in her presence that many (if not most) people would disagree with?
> 
> ...



She knows already what things are opinion and what things are facts.  She knows that I like spicy food.  She knows that she doesn't.  Those are preferences and opinions.  

I could never in good conscience tell her that a man rose from the dead.  

How do you all do that, by the way?  How do you go about telling a little kid that the Biblical account of the resurrection is true? Do you just tell them to trust you?


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Don't you think that the contrary could be said or your position?
> 
> That you would hinge so much on your "best guess" seems odd to us as well.  I don't play the 'razor' game.  But the logic follows exactly from what you just said.



My position is based on information that all people everywhere around the world have access to and can verify for themselves.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> But, what am I "hinging" on it?  I can die, and be dust, and no worse for believing in God.



Not so much as far as I can tell.  But if you've ever prayed about who to vote for or relied on the Bible to instruct your position on a social issue then I feel that you've done a disservice to all the rest of your fellow man.  

A person's belief or disbelief in String Theory probably won't effect how they vote.


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I could never in good conscience tell her that a man rose from the dead.


Then you shouldn't.   



ambush80 said:


> How do you all do that, by the way?  How do you go about telling a little kid that the Biblical account of the resurrection is true? Do you just tell them to trust you?


That might work, but only up until they think you've lied to them or misled them in any way. I had no reason to question my parents until I felt they lied to me. Then I had to question everything.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 20, 2012)

I just look them in the eye and say these words...



Don't ever......EVER......question the jewish zombie.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Then you shouldn't.
> 
> 
> That might work, but only up until they think you've lied to them or misled them in any way. I had no reason to question my parents until I felt they lied to me. Then I had to question everything.



If you don't have free will who's doing the questioning? Seriously man get your story straight.  

No free will=No ability to act on your own=No ability to question.  

What you essentially said (the only logical scenerio minus free will) is god lied to you through your parents and then god made you question your parents becuase he made them lie to you.  Sounding a bit ridiculous yet?


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I just look them in the eye and say these words...
> 
> 
> 
> Don't ever......EVER......question the jewish zombie.



That's very cute.

Do you have a real answer?


----------



## gemcgrew (Aug 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> If you don't have free will who's doing the questioning? Seriously man get your story straight.
> 
> No free will=No ability to act on your own=No ability to question.
> 
> What you essentially said (the only logical scenerio minus free will) is god lied to you through your parents and then god made you question your parents becuase he made them lie to you.  Sounding a bit ridiculous yet?



The only thing ridiculous are the asserted conclusions. If you have the capacity for serious discussion, I will be happy to spend some time on it with you.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> But if you've ever prayed about who to vote for or relied on the Bible to instruct your position on a social issue then I feel that you've done a disservice to all the rest of your fellow man.



We all question each other's voting habits.

I feel anybody voting for Romney or Obama this go 'round is doing a disservice to us all.   Does it matter how I reached that conclusion?  What matters is the result of the action.

Some folks pray about it, and believe their discernment is "God-given."  I don't know that I have ever prayed over who to vote for, because I typically approach the booth with  a certain clarity......but, I don't care how a person arrives at their vote.  It can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> We all question each other's voting habits.
> 
> I feel anybody voting for Romney or Obama this go 'round is doing a disservice to us all.   Does it matter how I reached that conclusion?  What matters is the result of the action.
> 
> Some folks pray about it, and believe their discernment is "God-given."  I don't know that I have ever prayed over who to vote for, because I typically approach the booth with  a certain clarity......but, I don't care how a person arrives at their vote.  It can be right for the wrong reasons and wrong for the right reasons.



It does.  Would you be OK if someone reached their conclusions by reading tea leaves or chicken bones?  What if you knew that a future president made his decisions that way?

There are some scientists who think that T Rex was a scavenger.  Others think it was a hunter.  Some believe in String Theory.  Some don't.  It's interesting when they get together, to listen to them debate.  In the end they agree that they don't know.  So I guess they aren't really 'believers'.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> The only thing ridiculous are the asserted conclusions. If you have the capacity for serious discussion, I will be happy to spend some time on it with you.



I don't know Gem, his logic seems pretty sound to me.  
Can you explain where he falls short?


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> The only thing ridiculous are the asserted conclusions. If you have the capacity for serious discussion, I will be happy to spend some time on it with you.



Please explain to me how any other conclusion can be reached. It is your claim that we have no free will, not mine. It is when you start applying your claim that it begins to break down. It is 100% illogical. There is no way around it.  

Not only do I have the capacity for serious discussion but the free will to execute such an endeavor. The real question is do you have the will to answer?  Is it your answer or is god answering through you?


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> What if you knew that a future president made his decisions that way?



Regardless how we got here, this is where we're at.  I am not ok with an Obama or a Romney being president.  Obama claims to be a Christian, and Romney claims to be a Mormon.  Yet both would claim to seek the counsel of the same God I pray to.  So their prayers mean absolutely nothing to me.  All I care about is how they might govern.....and in this case, neither is acceptable to me.

If I knew a president was reading tea leaves, but governing in a free-market libertarian sort of way, I guess I would be ok with it.  Just like I would be ok with a Jewish president, or a Mormon president, or an atheist president.

All I care about are the results of the decisions.  



ambush80 said:


> There are some scientists who think that T Rex was a scavenger.  Others think it was a hunter.  Some believe in String Theory.  Some don't.  It's interesting when they get together, to listen to them debate.  In the end they agree that they don't know.  So I guess they aren't really 'believers'.



T-Rex was a scavenger


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Regardless how we got here, this is where we're at.  I am not ok with an Obama or a Romney being president.  Obama claims to be a Christian, and Romney claims to be a Mormon.  Yet both would claim to seek the counsel of the same God I pray to.  So their prayers mean absolutely nothing to me.  All I care about is how they might govern.....and in this case, neither is acceptable to me.
> 
> If I knew a president was reading tea leaves, but governing in a free-market libertarian sort of way, I guess I would be ok with it.  Just like I would be ok with a Jewish president, or a Mormon president, or an atheist president.
> 
> ...



It's an indicator of how they process or acquire information and an indicator of how much they are influenced by superstition.

I think that a president praying about a decision is just as whack as one who would read goat innards or Tarot cards.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I think that a president praying about a decision is just as whack as one who would read goat innards or Tarot cards.



Then you must not vote much.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Just hope they don't turn out to be another Ravi Zacharias, he didn't get his hands on a Bible until late in his teen years. You'll probably want to wait and let them read it when they're at least 20, just to be on the safe side.



Teens and 20 somethings are often very susceptible to influence, especially if they are troubled.  Best they have  good critical thinking skills (read that: a good 'male cow poop' sensor) by that time as well as good self esteem etc.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know Gem, his logic seems pretty sound to me.
> Can you explain where he falls short?



While Gem and I don't agree on the free will /predes stuff, his positions are extremely consistent.

I don't want to put words in his mouth, because I know he is perfectly capable of answering for himself, but I think, as I learn more about that position, is that a person's will is exercised as God allows.....and cannot be determined to be free.  Somehow, that does not translate into robots doing what they're told....but doing what they are allowed to do.

I believe in free will.  But, his position makes more sense the more I learn about it.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Then you must not vote much.



My doctor prays.  I still go to him.  If he prayed about how to heal me then we would have a problem.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> While Gem and I don't agree on the free will /predes stuff, his positions are extremely consistent.
> 
> I don't want to put words in his mouth, because I know he is perfectly capable of answering for himself, but I think, as I learn more about that position, is that a person's will is exercised as God allows.....and cannot be determined to be free.  Somehow, that does not translate into robots doing what they're told....but doing what they are allowed to do.
> 
> I believe in free will.  But, his position makes more sense the more I learn about it.



"Somehow" indeed.......I think Gem understands the god of the Bible completely.  I think you will have to see it his way eventually, too.  Or give it up.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

pbradley said:


> It's a spectrum. Sharon Harris, the libertarian President of the Advocates for Self Government, is a Christian Libertarian, as is her husband Jimmy, I believe.
> 
> Michael Cloud, an extraordinarily gifted speaker and persuader of libertarian ideas, is about as atheist as they come. I believe his partner, Carla Howell, is also.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone who believes in God is _stupid_.. I feel _mildly_ sorry for them, and occasionally a little frightened of them. Like _you would _if you found out one of your friends _worshiped_ Santa, and_ really _believed he existed. The guy might be a brain surgeon, support his family and be a productive citizen. Normal on all fronts. He just believes in a man made character that if that man made character told him to kill you,he'd kill you for _*Santa told him to*_.. Ya know, _totally terrifying_..


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> My doctor prays.  I still go to him.  If he prayed about how to heal me then we would have a problem.



I would think he prays for wisdom....as do most of us.  But we still hit the books when we need some "learning."


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I don't think anyone who believes in God is _stupid_.. I feel _mildly_ sorry for them, and occasionally a little frightened of them. Like _you would _if you found out one of your friends _worshiped_ Santa, and_ really _believed he existed. The guy might be a brain surgeon, support his family and be a productive citizen. Normal on all fronts. He just believes in a man made character that if that man made character told him to kill you,he'd kill you for _*Santa told him to*_.. Ya know, _totally terrifying_..



You've got to be kidding me!  

"Science is true, even if you don't believe in it?"

A good scientist would acknowledge the ignorance of that statement.

.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I don't think anyone who believes in God is _stupid_.. I feel _mildly_ sorry for them, and occasionally a little frightened of them. Like _you would _if you found out one of your friends _worshiped_ Santa, and_ really _believed he existed. The guy might be a brain surgeon, support his family and be a productive citizen. Normal on all fronts. He just believes in a man made character that if that man made character told him to kill you,he'd kill you for _*Santa told him to*_.. Ya know, _totally terrifying_..



I wonder if in a thousand years Vishnu and Jesus and Buddah will pass into history like Zeus and Ra and be replaced by some other gods.


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I would think he prays for wisdom....as do most of us.  But we still hit the books when we need some "learning."



I'd prefer he meditate as opposed to seeking counsel of a 'spirit guy'.  What if he believes that god told him what to do and I died?  I guess he can say that god said it was my time to go.  And if I'm healed?  I guess that was god, too.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I wonder if in a thousand years Vishnu and Jesus and Buddah will pass into history like Zeus and Ra and be replaced by some other gods.


30-60 years... That's EXACTLY how it will go, they will go the way of Zeus and other 'true' Gods. Atheism is going to catch like a wildfire in Colorado.. I think science and common sense will replace gods. Man do I _hope_ common sense makes a comeback!! I think a higher percentage of folks had common sense 100+ years ago and religion killed it slowly.. Once ya start actually believing in talking bush's its all downhill from there.. I'd say in the last 100 years we've had a crazy surge in 'religionization'.. I hope to see it diminish in my lifetime.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> You've got to be kidding me!
> 
> "Science is true, even if you don't believe in it?"
> 
> ...



No, they wouldn't. Ignorance is disputing it.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I don't think anyone who believes in God is _stupid_.. I feel _mildly_ sorry for them, and occasionally a little frightened of them. Like _you would _if you found out one of your friends _worshiped_ Santa, and_ really _believed he existed. The guy might be a brain surgeon, support his family and be a productive citizen. Normal on all fronts. He just believes in a man made character that if that man made character told him to kill you,he'd kill you for _*Santa told him to*_.. Ya know, _totally terrifying_..




Ugh!   From one of your past posts:

"I gotta say, Ive met some catastrophically STUPID bible thumpin Cristian Conservatives, I haven't met an Atheist of the same caliber of stuuuupid. Have you?"

Have you noticed any of the ignorant Christians referring to you in the ways that you seen to continually refer to them??????????????????????????????

I personally believe your attitude towards believers is pathetic.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I'd prefer he meditate as opposed to seeking counsel of a 'spirit guy'.  What if he believes that god told him what to do and I died?  I guess he can say that god said it was my time to go.  And if I'm healed?  I guess that was god, too.



Or, he just didn't do a good job fixin' you.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> No, they wouldn't. Ignorance is disputing it.



Most any scientist will tell you that science is continually changing and correcting itself with new information.

.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> 30-60 years... That's EXACTLY how it will go, they will go the way of Zeus and other 'true' Gods. Atheism is going to catch like a wildfire in Colorado.. I think science and common sense will replace gods. Man do I _hope_ common sense makes a comeback!! I think a higher percentage of folks had common sense 100+ years ago and religion killed it slowly.. Once ya start actually believing in talking bush's its all downhill from there.. I'd say in the last 100 years we've had a crazy surge in 'religionization'.. I hope to see it diminish in my lifetime.



You know, when I was a kid, in some relatively fundamentalists churches, I would hear some preachers long for "revival."

Sounded a lot like your post.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Ugh!   From one of your past posts:
> 
> "I gotta say, Ive met some catastrophically STUPID bible thumpin Cristian Conservatives, I haven't met an Atheist of the same caliber of stuuuupid. Have you?"
> 
> ...




NO. 

Your entitled to your opinion, even if its wrong. I fully support your right to your opinion.

Why is it _pathetic _tho? I'm curious why you think that.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> You know, when I was a kid, in some relatively fundamentalists churches, I would hear some preachers long for "revival."
> 
> Sounded a lot like your post.


Don't it? I was goin for that!!


----------



## ambush80 (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Or, he just didn't do a good job fixin' you.



I guess I was implying that by seeking supernatural counsel he might be able to relieve himself of some responsibility.  Certainly, if he did everything he knew how to do that's all I could ask.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> 30-60 years... That's EXACTLY how it will go, they will go the way of Zeus and other 'true' Gods. Atheism is going to catch like a wildfire in Colorado.. I think science and common sense will replace gods. Man do I _hope_ common sense makes a comeback!! I think a higher percentage of folks had common sense 100+ years ago and religion killed it slowly.. Once ya start actually believing in talking bush's its all downhill from there.. I'd say in the last 100 years we've had a crazy surge in 'religionization'.. I hope to see it diminish in my lifetime.



"Atheism will be out of control"

Well that's certainly going to bring social change.

Inner city gangs will no longer exist.
Waste baskets will be filled with unborn fetuses.
Wars will come to an end.
Gas prices will plummet.
Bass will start biting again.


----------



## TheBishop (Aug 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> While Gem and I don't agree on the free will /predes stuff, his positions are extremely consistent.
> 
> I don't want to put words in his mouth, because I know he is perfectly capable of answering for himself, but I think, as I learn more about that position, is that a person's will is exercised as God allows.....and cannot be determined to be free.  Somehow, that does not translate into robots doing what they're told....but doing what they are allowed to do.
> 
> I believe in free will.  But, his position makes more sense the more I learn about it.



HOW? Someone please explain how it makes one bit of sense. "Somehow" not like robots doesn't cut it.  Do we have some free will in some capacity? Does sometimes god use us and sometime he doesn't?


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I guess I was implying that by seeking supernatural counsel he might be able to relieve himself of some responsibility.  Certainly, if he did everything he knew how to do that's all I could ask.



I understand.  My point is that the results are what should matter.  You have a dr with a track record and an education you can put your faith in.  If you have that evidence at hand, and it is acceptable, does it really matter where he puts his faith?


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> HOW? Someone please explain how it makes one bit of sense. "Somehow" not like robots doesn't cut it.  Do we have some free will in some capacity? Does sometimes god use us and sometime he doesn't?



I don't know.  It's not my position. And I may be totally wrong about it.  But I think that is where the Calvinists are.  It "makes sense" in the same way you would understand why a person who votes very different than you votes the way they do.  You may not agree with wy, but you understand why.


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> NO.
> 
> Your entitled to your opinion, even if its wrong. I fully support your right to your opinion.
> 
> Why is it _pathetic _tho? I'm curious why you think that.



Because this is a forum, and this particular thread, for atheist and believers to discuss religion.

Mostly, all you do is talk down to believers. 

Mostly, all you do is talk down to believers.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> "Atheism will be out of control"
> 
> Well that's certainly going to bring social change.
> 
> ...



Gangs will always exist where parents fail.

Atheism has nothing to do with abortion, your really reaching.

Wars wont end, they just wont be any more fought for 'Zeus'.

Gas prices are never going back to 1950's prices, ya know why? It AIN'T 1950 anymore, unless your a fundamentalist who wants to take us back there socially..

Tha bass are biting where I fish. Use a different 'pray bait'..


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Gangs will always exist where parents fail.
> 
> Atheism has nothing to do with abortion, your really reaching.
> 
> ...




See, more sarcasm.  You simply cannot help it.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 20, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Because this is a forum, and this particular thread, for atheist and believers to discuss religion.
> 
> Mostly, all you do is talk down to believers.
> 
> Mostly, all you do is talk down to believers.



Are you kidding me? 'Believers' think NOTHING of telling people like me how they are _sorry_ for me, they will prey for me_ anyways_ etc.. Give me a break. That's talking down in a 'nice' way.  They inject their religious views anywhere and everywhere with NO consideration for ANYONE else who might NOT want it.. At least I just do it *HERE*.. I don't go to city or state functions and take 30 seconds before the meeting and try to convince people to forget god, like you guys take 30 seconds to pray to him out loud like everyone there wants to hear it or be part of it.Pushy, condescending and overbearing are the hallmarks of the _true believer_.. I'll take whatever ya wanna call me in stride. I wont lose a moments sleep.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 20, 2012)

If we had the greatest president ever, who ended all wars, balanced our trade deficit and the federal budget, returned our currency to the gold standard, appointed SCOTUS justices who over turned Kelo and Obamacare, and in the process secured our borders in a way that made everybody happy (impossible is the point here), AND declared the song "Call me Maybe" a national tragedy..........

.......would you vote to re-elect him even if you knew he worshipped volcanos and read tea leaves?  I would.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 21, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Are you kidding me? 'Believers' think NOTHING of telling people like me how they are _sorry_ for me, they will prey for me_ anyways_ etc.. Give me a break. Thats talking down in a 'nice' way.  They inject their religious views anywhere and everywhere with NO consideration for ANYONE else who might NOT want it.. Pushy, condescending and overbearing are the hallmarks of the _true believer_.. I'll take whatever ya wanna call me in stride. I wont lose a moments sleep.



Isn't it you guys who tell us our beliefs are not "worthy" of respect, and are "laughable?"

Maybe that wasn't you.  But it happens.  

Do you guys hold budhist' beliefs in the same contempt you hold Christina beliefs?


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 21, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Are you kidding me? 'Believers' think NOTHING of telling people like me how they are _sorry_ for me, they will prey for me_ anyways_ etc.. Give me a break. That's talking down in a 'nice' way.  They inject their religious views anywhere and everywhere with NO consideration for ANYONE else who might NOT want it.. At least I just do it *HERE*.. I don't go to city or state functions and take 30 seconds before the meeting and try to convince people to forget god, like you guys take 30 seconds to pray to him out loud like everyone there wants to hear it or be part of it.Pushy, condescending and overbearing are the hallmarks of the _true believer_.. I'll take whatever ya wanna call me in stride. I wont lose a moments sleep.



No Christian should have that attitude.  They aren't Christian's because they're good.  They're Christians because God is good.

And I'll bet I could spend an entire day on a boat with you without hounding you to believe like I do.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Isn't it you guys who tell us our beliefs are not "worthy" of respect, and are "laughable?"
> 
> Maybe that wasn't you.  But it happens.
> 
> Do you guys hold budhist' beliefs in the same contempt you hold Christina beliefs?



No.
They are _quiet_ about it. They seem to keep it private, like it _should_ be. Religion and faith are _personal_ things. They aren't meant to be _rammed_ down peoples throats at every town hall meeting and legislated. Buddhists never tried to legislate my habits or desires and never made me force pray at a city/state function. Go's a long way with me, not oppressing me n all. I'm funny that way.

Ever seen a Buddhist bumper sticker? Ever seen a Buddhist on a political podium telling you what you should and should be able to do becasue of HIS beliefs? I haven't.. They keep religion in its place, in THEIR hearts.. Not in MY face.

In the grand skeem of things I don't really care. I'm not as worried about 'Christians' as you might think. I _vent_ on these forums, it gets it out of my system. I work with hard core Christians, I _like them_, they aren't all pushy. They don't ALL 'oppress' me.


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 22, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> 30-60 years... That's EXACTLY how it will go, they will go the way of Zeus and other 'true' Gods. Atheism is going to catch like a wildfire in Colorado.. I think science and common sense will replace gods.



Not sure about the timeframe.  But other than that, this part of your post is 100%, spot on, dead accurate.

Wanna know how I know?




_ But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.
(2 Timothy 3:1-9 ESV)_


----------



## ross the deer slayer (Aug 22, 2012)

Christians are supposed to spread their beliefs guys, we are supposed to tell others about God. If you had a belief that could change a person's life in a wonderful way, wouldn't you want others to know what you believe?


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 22, 2012)

It's been the "last days" for 2,000 years.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It's been the "last days" for 2,000 years.



That's only 2 days in "God time"  2 Peter 3:8


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> That's only 2 days in "God time"  2 Peter 3:8



I never heard a preacher talk about the last days as if the present time and a thousand years ago were comparable.

Besides, that scripture goes both ways. It's been 2 days and it's also been 1000 years x 2,000 years x 365 days/year. That's a looong time. You fellers have a long wait ahead of you.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 22, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Most any scientist will tell you that science is continually changing and correcting itself with new information.
> 
> .


Yes. The exact opposite is true of the bible or religion.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I never heard a preacher talk about the last days as if the present time and a thousand years ago were comparable.
> 
> Besides, that scripture goes both ways. It's been 2 days and it's also been 1000 years x 2,000 years x 365 days/year. That's a looong time. You fellers have a long wait ahead of you.



Oh, I know.  Just havin' fun with words.    I don't have a clue when the "end times" are going to be.  Neither does anybody else.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Oh, I know.  Just havin' fun with words.    I don't have a clue when the "end times" are going to be.  Neither does anybody else.



Matthew 24:34


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Matthew 24:34



Think we could keep going???  

1 Thess 5:1-7

Who knows what the fig tree meant in Mathew 24?


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 23, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> Christians are supposed to spread their beliefs guys, we are supposed to tell others about God. If you had a belief that could change a person's life in a wonderful way, wouldn't you want others to know what you believe?



I could name several other things the bible COMMANDS that you do. Including when you are supposed to kill, how you are to collect slaves, how to punish those caught working on the sabbath, how to punish brides who marry without being a virgin, and how to punish adulterers.. Ill give ya a hint, there no 'go stand in the corner' type of punishment.. 

You choose _not to follow_ those instructions yet pushing your region on folks is the one that the leaders of the church say you _should_ do? Of course if it _really was_ all that and a bag of chips you wouldn't _have _to go out n_ sell it_, you'd have people _lined up fighting to get in_. Heck, a good night club has _that_. They aren't promising eternal life either. Why do you think your supposed to go out and 'recruit'? 

I'll tell ya why, becasue without new recruits the 'church' loses money, parishioners DIE and STOP tithing. The church has to recruit or it's $$ and power would recede. Fact.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Think we could keep going???
> 
> 1 Thess 5:1-7
> 
> Who knows what the fig tree meant in Mathew 24?



Sounds like it was written by someone who expected it to happen in their lifetime, they just didn't know when. If not, they are disagreeing with Jesus. Who you gonna believe? Thessalonians? Or Jesus?


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 23, 2012)

> It's been the "last days" for 2,000 years.




...and according to this thread (that you started), it's only a blink of an eye.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=704941


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and according to this thread (that you started), it's only a blink of an eye.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=704941



In cosmic terms absolutely. In terms of the timeframes preachers deal in when they are talking about the end times and the signs and events involved... Let's just say the prophecy has been dragging on about 99 generations past the original prediction.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

Another way to look at this is how does this wait compare to the wait for earlier prophecies that were supposedly fulfilled? This one beats them all by a long shot.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I could name several other things the bible COMMANDS that you do. Including when you are supposed to kill, how you are to collect slaves, how to punish those caught working on the sabbath, how to punish brides who marry without being a virgin, and how to punish adulterers.. Ill give ya a hint, there no 'go stand in the corner' type of punishment..
> 
> You choose _not to follow_ those instructions ...





For the thousandth time ... Christians are told in the NT that we are not to hold to these laws and a host of others.  It sounds like you really have a problem with the Jews, not Christians.  Ask a Jew why they "choose _not to follow_ those instructions".


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> For the thousandth time ... Christians are told in the NT that we are not to hold to these laws and a host of others.  It sounds like you really have a problem with the Jews, not Christians.  Ask a Jew why they "choose _not to follow_ those instructions".



Does that include the ten commandments?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Does that include the ten commandments?



Matthew 22:36-40:

_Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets._


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't want to misunderstand your answer so please be direct. Does that include the ten commandments or not?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I don't want to misunderstand your answer so please be direct. Does that include the ten commandments or not?



I thought Jesus was perfectly clear:

"On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." 

All means all.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I thought Jesus was perfectly clear:
> 
> "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."
> 
> All means all.



So the law does still apply??? Seriously why can't you just answer yes or no? It seemed so clear cut in your initial post that the law doesn't still apply. I'm just asking if you are including the ten commandments in that position.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'm just asking if you are including the ten commandments in that position.



JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD is including the ten commandments in that position.

We've been through this time and time again, so let's revisit another thread:



huntmore said:


> Atlas have you read the Bible (whole thing) or are you just taking parts out that you want to discuss/argue?





atlashunter said:


> I haven't read it cover to cover but I'm pretty familiar with it. Grew up in church, home bible studies, used to believe and study on my own, etc. My father, grandfather, and great grandfather were all pastors so I was steeped in it. I'm still studying and learning, from secular sources now, because I find it interesting.



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=615699&page=2

So, you're "pretty familiar with it", "grew up" in it, are "steeped in it", "still studying and learning" it ... yet, apparently, you have zero understanding of the basics of the faith and even have trouble distinguishing between the Old and New Covenants.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> JESUS CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD is including the ten commandments in that position.



It sounds like your answer to my question is yes they still apply. Not sure why you won't just give a straight forward yes or no as to whether they still apply like you previously did with the other laws. If Jesus is saying they do in your opinion and he is referencing "all" the laws then doesn't that mean "all" of the laws go along for the ride?




centerpin fan said:


> We've been through this time and time again, so let's revisit another thread:
> 
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=615699&page=2
> ...



This isn't about my understanding centerpin it's about yours. I'm just trying to figure out what exactly you think. You said the OT law applied to jews but not christians. I want to know if that include the ten commandments because for not applying to christians they sure love to trot them out at every opportunity. If the law to stone a man for working on the sabbath or a woman for adultery doesn't still apply but "thou shalt not kill" does I'm curious how you are picking and choosing what laws do and don't apply.

I obviously have my own views. I'm not asking you to tell me what they are or what you think of them. I know what they are. I'm just trying to better understand _your viewpoint._


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> This isn't about my understanding centerpin it's about yours.



You're dead wrong.  I understand the faith and have explained it many times on this forum.  In your case, either:

1)  You have zero understanding of the basics of Christianity or

2)  You're _pretending_ to have zero understanding of the basics of Christianity.

If it's #1, sign up for Vacation Bible School.  Sit in the front row and take notes.

If it's #2, I don't have time for games.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You're dead wrong.  I understand the faith and have explained it many times on this forum.  In your case, either:
> 
> 1)  You have zero understanding of the basics of Christianity or
> 
> ...



Apparently you do. I asked a simple question and can't get a straight yes or no answer out of you. How many posts now and you still have yet to say "Yes they still apply." or "No they don't apply.". You refuse to do that which makes no sense for someone with such a self professed solid understanding of the faith. You should have just said you're not willing to answer the question and saved us both the time.

On a side note I find it humorous that you are so convinced of your position as to suggest anyone who questions you doesn't understand the faith when christians can't even come to agreement amongst themselves.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm pretty sure one of the commandments says something about the sabbath.. Pretty sure..


> But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 	14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine donkey, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.



Pick n choose, pick n choose..


----------



## dawg2 (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> This would never sell if people weren't indoctrinated into it from birth.



If you say so.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> If you say so.



Ditto


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I'm pretty sure one of the commandments says something about the sabbath.. Pretty sure..
> 
> 
> Pick n choose, pick n choose..



atlashunter is not the only one who could do with an intensive, eight-week Vacation Bible School.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> On a side note I find it humorous that you are so convinced of your position as to suggest anyone who questions you doesn't understand the faith ...



Anybody who asks this question:



atlashunter said:


> Does that include the ten commandments?



... either:

1) Has zero understanding of the basics of Christianity or

2) Is pretending to have zero understanding of the basics of Christianity.

Which one is it?  You tell me.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It sounds like your answer to my question is yes they still apply. Not sure why you won't just give a straight forward yes or no as to whether they still apply like you previously did with the other laws.



I thought quoting Jesus Christ Himself was sufficient, but it looks like I guessed wrong.  Yes, the law still applies, but you're asking the wrong question.

Are Christians made right with God by following the Law?  NO.

Has _anyone_ ever been made right with God by following the Law?  NO.

Read Galatians 3 (and sign up for VBS.)


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Anybody who asks this question:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm asking what YOU think. Keep dancing around the question.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I thought quoting Jesus Christ Himself was sufficient, but it looks like I guessed wrong.  Yes, the law still applies, but you're asking the wrong question.
> 
> Are Christians made right with God by following the Law?  NO.
> 
> ...



Thank you! Finally a straight answer.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> On a side note I find it humorous that you are so convinced of your position as to suggest anyone who questions you doesn't understand the faith when christians can't even come to agreement amongst themselves.



I find it humorous that this question in the "snake handling" thread remains unanswered:



centerpin fan said:


> What does this have to do with AAA?



Feel free to take a stab at it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Thank you! Finally a straight answer.



Feel free to return the favor.


----------



## atlashunter (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I find it humorous that this question in the "snake handling" thread remains unanswered:
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to take a stab at it.



I answered the first time you asked the question. Scriptures not original to Mark.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I answered the first time you asked the question. Scriptures not original to Mark.



I did not realize you intended that as an answer to my question.  "Are the last twelve verses of Mark legitimate" would be a more direct question, but we all think differently.


----------

