# Tiller killer testimony



## earl (Jan 29, 2010)

Partial article on the abortion doctor's killer's testimony .
religiousnews.com

Mr. Roeder, 51, of Kansas City, Mo., told jurors that he had a growing sense of his own faith and opposition to abortion in the 1990s after watching “The 700 Club,” the evangelist Pat Robertson’s television talk show. Mr. Roeder’s views on religion and abortion, he said, went “hand in hand.”

Mr. Roeder acknowledged under cross-examination that he had, as early as 1993, thought about killing Dr. Tiller. A year before the shooting, he said, he had gone to Dr. Tiller’s church with a gun intending to shoot him. (Dr. Tiller was not there that day, he said.) And he said he considered other alternatives: cutting off Dr. Tiller’s hands with a sword, shooting him from a distance with a rifle, or finding him at his house. 


Pat's got some more influence on folks .


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## gtparts (Jan 29, 2010)

The weight of knowing that since Roe vs Wade (1973) more than 50,000,000 babies have been murdered at the request of the one person closest to that child has brought me to my knees in tears and genuine grief on several occasions. 

A statistically significant sample of those cases indicates that those terminated to save the life of the mother and those involving rape or incest account for less than 4% of the total. That means that more than 48 million prenatal infants were killed for convenience alone. In my opinion, Dr. Tiller paid a small price for his part in the homicides he willingly committed. 

That in no way excuses Mr. Roeder, but I can relate to the desperation he felt. I am just able to restrain the desire to stop this hideous practice in like fashion, where Mr. Roeder was not. It was, in my opinion, the actions of a caring man, moved to do the only thing he could conceive would certainly stop the "good" doctor from killing more babies.

I assume that Mr. Robertson shares the sorrow and concern that Mr. Roeder and millions of other Americans have for the "legal" atrocities done in the name of reason and logic.

May God have mercy on a people who have such disregard for the life of their own children.


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## Israel (Jan 29, 2010)

Yes.
There is a spirit that hates man, hates his being made in the image and likeness of the One he despises and believes his inferior, and is working furiously to so mar and deform that image that it is all but unrecoverable, and totally unrecognizable.
He is not vanquished with bullets nor fists...although he (Satan) begs for us to use them...


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 29, 2010)

i cant see God condemning the murderer (Roeder) in this case...  all throughout the old testament... God demanded the evil people (Tiller) get whacked...  either He whacked 'em, an angel did or had somebody else whack 'em... God hates the shedding of innocent blood.

but glory to God and here's why... the Bible says babies go to heaven... forget limbo. so like gt said, 48 mil babies have been sacrificed since 1973.  yes, abortion is a sacrifice to a god. the gods of "convenience" and "self"..

IF all of those babies had been born, many, most, some or whatever # would have rejected Christ and would have eventually found themselves in outer darkness...  but now... they are in heaven instead.  its far better to die at birth and go to heaven than be born, live, die and go to the lake where there is no fishin...    God is merciful and wise...


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

Thou shalt not murder.

Ring a bell ? How can Christians ignore a direct commandment ,or condone the breaking of it ? Obedience when it is convienent ? The man should be convicted of premedatated murder . He is guilty of such by his own admission. Maybe he should have just cut off Tiller's hand with a sword. No commandments broken and more than likely a plausible insanity plea. If he wants to make the case about abortion, he should be allowed to. Then the courts could reinforce that Tiller was within the law. If and when the law is changed ,this type of behaviour is unacceptable. 

Will you teach your children that murder is OK as long as God is on your side ? That will make for an interesting future . Or jihad.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2010)

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:_ if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,_ that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

Israel said:


> John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world:_ if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight,_ that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.




So God has not asked his servants to fight in this kingdom. Roeder's defense just went out the window. It would appear that those who condoned yjis might be wrong also. 

bh has a strange way of saying ''Glory to God'' but in a way he is right. Who's to say abortion is not part of God's plan.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2010)

Tiller would not be dead had not God known it. As with the many babies.
Those millions of babies are not the source of grief...each is safe...it is men acting bestially and scarring their precious souls in complete disregard and rebellion.
The value of a soul is equal to the blood of the slaughtered innocent Son of God. That we may count them of so little worth is testimony to the blindness we have embraced.
Whole world< one soul.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 30, 2010)

earl said:


> Thou shalt not murder.
> 
> Ring a bell ? How can Christians ignore a direct commandment ,or condone the breaking of it ? Obedience when it is convienent ? The man should be convicted of premedatated murder . He is guilty of such by his own admission. Maybe he should have just cut off Tiller's hand with a sword. No commandments broken and more than likely a plausible insanity plea. If he wants to make the case about abortion, he should be allowed to. Then the courts could reinforce that Tiller was within the law. If and when the law is changed ,this type of behaviour is unacceptable.
> 
> Will you teach your children that murder is OK as long as God is on your side ? That will make for an interesting future . Or jihad.





sorry earl, i put "tiller" in the place where i meant "roeder" to go... what i was saying is that i think roeder will not be condemned by God for what he did... based on capital punishment taught in the Bible.

as far as the "thou shalt not kill" command. you have to take the whole of the Bible into consideration when it comes to punishment. the Bible clearly teaches that the evil man is to be punished for his deeds. like was said earlier in another thread when we got on the subject of Romans 13 and govt's role in punishing the wicked.  if the govt dont do their job as required by God... God may choose to have somebody else carry out the job.  tiller was worthy of death and got what he deserved.  now he's getting payback for his evil while the babies he killed are getting comfort.  justice is always served.

i am not saying that abortion is part of God's plan... its part of satans plan and his evil govt stooges who enforce abortion.  what i am saying is that God's counterplan is always greater than satans.  those babies are enjoying heaven right now...  while tiller is enjoying high temperatures...


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## Twenty five ought six (Jan 30, 2010)

It took the jury 37 minutes to return a verdict of capital murder.

Do you have any idea of what it takes to get a jury to return ANY verdict in 37 minutes?

That's 12 people who weren't buying what Roeder was selling.


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## gtparts (Jan 30, 2010)

Twenty five ought six said:


> It took the jury 37 minutes to return a verdict of capital murder.
> 
> Do you have any idea of what it takes to get a jury to return ANY verdict in 37 minutes?
> 
> That's 12 people who weren't buying what Roeder was selling.



He confessed. Far as I can see, he wasn't selling anything......more of a plea for mercy. I think he got human justice instead.


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> sorry earl, i put "tiller" in the place where i meant "roeder" to go... what i was saying is that i think roeder will not be condemned by God for what he did... based on capital punishment taught in the Bible.
> 
> as far as the "thou shalt not kill" command. you have to take the whole of the Bible into consideration when it comes to punishment. the Bible clearly teaches that the evil man is to be punished for his deeds. like was said earlier in another thread when we got on the subject of Romans 13 and govt's role in punishing the wicked.  if the govt dont do their job as required by God... God may choose to have somebody else carry out the job.  tiller was worthy of death and got what he deserved.  now he's getting payback for his evil while the babies he killed are getting comfort.  justice is always served.
> 
> i am not saying that abortion is part of God's plan... its part of satans plan and his evil govt stooges who enforce abortion.  what i am saying is that God's counterplan is always greater than satans.  those babies are enjoying heaven right now...  while tiller is enjoying high temperatures...





''out of context''
There is an interesting thought. The folks who let their child die waiting on faith to heal him , and the lady who starved her children to death waiting on God to fill their needs are whackos and not really Christian to boot. A self confessed muderer is ''out of context''?????
Some of ya'll really ,really scare me. How can ''thou shalt not murder ''be taken out of context ?
If I could convince my wife that all that adultery stuff was out of context...,imagine the possibilities.
BH ,I am surprised at you . I thought you believed in the bible literaly.


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

Hunting and then murdering a man should result in the death penalty. IMHO


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 30, 2010)

earl said:


> ''out of context''
> There is an interesting thought. The folks who let their child die waiting on faith to heal him , and the lady who starved her children to death waiting on God to fill their needs are whackos and not really Christian to boot. A self confessed muderer is ''out of context''?????
> Some of ya'll really ,really scare me. How can ''thou shalt not murder ''be taken out of context ?
> If I could convince my wife that all that adultery stuff was out of context...,imagine the possibilities.
> BH ,I am surprised at you . I thought you believed in the bible literaly.



earl, if a maniac breaks into your house tonite and threatens to harm your family... do you not have the Biblical right to shoot to kill? you better believe it. not only do you have the right but are commanded to do so.

many of the commands of God have a small * next to them.  example, again if a maniac knocks on my door and some man says where are your kids, i am gonna kill them!  do i have to say, "we'll, i cannot tell a lie because it is sin... so mister, you will find my kids hiding under the bed..."   

thats crazy... 

some verses have only one meaning... like the first commandment, loving God with all your heart. that can never be overridden or altered. when a Christian loves anything or anyone more than God it is idolatry.

but not killing is one of those verses that have to be taken in consideration with the rest of Scripture...  we are commanded to not kill but there are dozens of versus of men killing men with the approval of God. it all has to be put together to determine what is being said.


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

I think you may be mixing up the OT and the NT.The ''10 commandments '' all either stand alone or they all are meaningless. How many times have I read your posts admonishing others for ''spinning'' the bible. God could have prevented the death of his son , but he didn't.
BTW, a side note to manics. If you break in my house ,I will be most unChristian , and shoot you as soon as I can get the Rottweiler off of you.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 30, 2010)

earl said:


> I think you may be mixing up the OT and the NT.The ''10 commandments '' all either stand alone or they all are meaningless. How many times have I read your posts admonishing others for ''spinning'' the bible. God could have prevented the death of his son , but he didn't.
> BTW, a side note to manics. If you break in my house ,I will be most unChristian , and shoot you as soon as I can get the Rottweiler off of you.





You would make a good barber. Your stories are precious and very entertianing. Folk would go for a hair cut---need it or not.


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## tell sackett (Jan 30, 2010)

gtparts said:


> The weight of knowing that since Roe vs Wade (1973) more than 50,000,000 babies have been murdered at the request of the one person closest to that child has brought me to my knees in tears and genuine grief on several occasions.
> 
> A statistically significant sample of those cases indicates that those terminated to save the life of the mother and those involving rape or incest account for less than 4% of the total. That means that more than 48 million prenatal infants were killed for convenience alone. In my opinion, Dr. Tiller paid a small price for his part in the homicides he willingly committed.
> 
> ...


This is a great post, I couldn't have said it better if I tried. No matter how the pro abortion side tries to pretty it up, (pro choice, a woman's right to choose, calling the victim a fetus instead of a baby, and on and on...)you're still killing unborn children. As gt pointed out, abortion is being used as birth control in 96% of the cases and the actual number is probably higher than 48,000,000 because some states don't report the number of abortions performed.

That being said, I can understand why Mr. Roder did what he did, but I can't justify it with scripture. God said "Veangence is mine, I shall repay."


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 30, 2010)

earl said:


> I think you may be mixing up the OT and the NT.The ''10 commandments '' all either stand alone or they all are meaningless. How many times have I read your posts admonishing others for ''spinning'' the bible. God could have prevented the death of his son , but he didn't.
> BTW, a side note to manics. If you break in my house ,I will be most unChristian , and shoot you as soon as I can get the Rottweiler off of you.



earl, even some of the 10 commandments have to be compared to other Scripture. like the sabbath.  they dont need to stand alone...  not sure really what your meaning by that one...  and no they are not meaningless. without the law it would be hard for anyone to know right or wrong...

even though God does not change sometimes his laws and statutes do.  like stoning adulterers. animal sacrifices etc. sabbath.

anyway, tiller the killer got his just payback and will continue to get it.


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

I don't remember the commandment about the sabbath being changed.Help me out on that one. 

Can we delete the things that are changed ?

What other exceptions to that commandment would you make ?
Pediophiles certainly should be.
How about gays ? Muslims ? People that drive electric cars ?
On second thought , who gave the exception in the first place ?
One more question. How many people involved in abortion in Jesus's day did God have Jesus kill before the Crucifiction ?

I don't care how you spin it, you will never be able to use the bible to justify the murder. Now it's time for Roeder to pay for his crime.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 30, 2010)

earl said:


> I don't remember the commandment about the sabbath being changed.Help me out on that one.
> 
> Can we delete the things that are changed ?
> 
> ...




research the "Lords Day" in the New Testament...

as far as your other questions... they are getting 
poopoo'd...   

not spinning anything... just debating punishment.

roeder will get punished because the "system" has tossed out God's rules for their own...  and he broke a law created by the system.  but did he break one of God's laws? thats the million dollar question...


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## gtparts (Jan 30, 2010)

From msnbc.com news services:

"Roeder faces a mandatory sentence of life in prison with the possibility of parole after 25 years. He will be sentenced March 9.

Prosecutor Nola Foulston said she would pursue a so-called "Hard 50" sentence, which would require Roeder to serve at least 50 years before he can be considered for parole."

As noted, Roeder is 51. May or may not make it out alive.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2010)

If Jesus accomplished so much with his death, why do we, who claim to follow, think God now wants us to kill, instead of simply die?


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## earl (Jan 30, 2010)

I'll leave it for a while with Israel's post.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 30, 2010)

can we be 100% CERTAIN that the Holy Spirit did not convict roeder to kill tiller? no.

is there ANY chance at all that the Holy Spirit might have convicted roeder to pay back tiller? yes.

ananias and saphira dropped dead, at the hands of the Holy Spirit and with Peter present, moments after lying about profits from the sale of some land...

there are hundreds of similar verses in the Bible to support...

if yall dont think God is sovereign enough to use one of His own to take out a devil possessed maniac... you dont know the God of the Bible.

we (sheep) are to follow Christ. but Christ is God.  that includes the God of the old testament. it was Jesus who sent the angel to kill 185,000 assyrians. it was Jesus who was right there to kill all the wicked men of the Bible.  why is it that everything is different in this day and age? has Jesus stopped killing the evil? no.

is God allowed to kill? yes, He owns it all. it all along belongs to Him. He can give life and take it all day long and we can say nothing.

earl said earlier he would whack anyone that came into his house threatening...  if earl has the right, and he does... does God not have the right to send one of His own children or a policeman or mafia hitman or a pastor or an athiest to dispose of another evil wicked man that God wants disposed...? of course He does.

whoever does not believe that has not spent much time in the old testament.

am i saying that God sent roeder to kill tiller? i have no idea. but if He did... it is in agreement with the Word of God and God has every right to do so... it all belongs to Him.


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## gtparts (Jan 31, 2010)

I have been reading The Principle of the Path by Andy Stanley and came upon this small portion that speaks clearly (at least, for me) about the subject at hand.

"So I want to encourage you to apply these three questions to every option that comes your way:

1. Does this option violate God's law?

2. Does this option violate a principle?

3. In light of the story I want to tell, what is the wise thing to do?"


On count one, everyone on this forum knows that Roeder's action did violate God's law.   That's a "Yes". I could stop there, but I won't.

On count two, if "loving your neighbor", "forgiving others", and "not taking revenge" are such biblical principles, then Roeder has trampled several. Again, "Yes".

If Roeder sought to leave a personal legacy that honors and points to Christ, was his action the wisest in accomplishing that goal? Absolutely not!

If Roeder considers himself a follower of Christ, then in this matter he has failed. 

So, what's new? I know of no Christian who has ever followed Christ perfectly, myself included (at the top of the list). I am certain that I live in the biggest and most fragile "glass house" in the neighborhood, if not the world.

Finally, can he find forgiveness? The Bible says he can. That is another of God's principles.

I pray that he will seek it. If he does, I know he will receive it.

God bless and have a glorious Son-day!


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> can we be 100% CERTAIN that the Holy Spirit did not convict roeder to kill tiller? no.
> 
> is there ANY chance at all that the Holy Spirit might have convicted roeder to pay back tiller? yes.
> 
> ...



I am glad you brought up Ananais and Saphira.
For I would have in this post had I not gone back and read past your first two lines. Along with Simon the Magician.

We could throw in King Hezekiah, but seeing he is mentioned in the Tanach that might confuse things...for there they still resorted to swords and carnal weapons.

The weapons of our warfare are not carnal. 

It is not that "God is above killing anyone"...which is funny on the face of it, right?
But that he needn't resort to the weak and beggarly elements upon which we rely to do so.
In fact...we may never know here if Roeder didn't try to steal God's glory, simply by his own incontinence.
Who knows if there was a prophet being prepared somewhere, a disciple in a Walmart,
or a believer living under a bridge in a refrigerator box, who would not have walked up to Tiller, in God's time and simply said, "The Lord commands you repent or perish" and simply walk away?
Now, who knows if God had not already spoken that to him before his shooting? Perhaps. I know God is merciful.
But I do know this, Peter saw Ananais and Saphira fall by nothing more than the power of the Holy Ghost. He didn't take a sword to punish them. Paul the apostle stopped the mouths of gainsayers, smote others with blindness...but not by the power of his own arm...

Two witnesses are reviled and hated and killed...not for anything less than the power of God in their mouths and their ability to smite the earth with curses as often as they wish. 
What we don't have in power coming out of our mouths, we don't have of Christ.

The wrath of man works not the righteousness of God...

That's a hard thing for us to learn...that our own sense of righteousness must die so that his righteousness can come through...
In simpler terms...when it doesn't matter to us at all what anyone is doing, not doing, saying, not saying, being, not being...but only concerned with the Lord's name, then the Lord may use us.


Offenses will come...

There's a whole world full of injustice out there...of which do we choose to be incensed?
For if it is you or I choosing, it will be you or I working. Not the Lord. When it is no longer you or I...

I am in no position to judge Roeder. 

For I know well what it is to seek to redress things according to my own sense of righteousness.

But I cannot deny that I have seen Jesus, who, when men were looking for him to kill him, did not run away but rather called to them afar off and asked..."Whom do you seek"...knowing full well it was he they were searching for.
The Holy Ghost gives us power in the evil day to stand. 
Not run away.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 31, 2010)

why is it a man can be "called" in the old testament by God to go and whack another evil person. an angel could be called to go whack another. king david, ditto. 

but not now. because a few verses out of the new testament are being taken literally and the similar verses in the old testament are being left out. Is Jesus God or isnt He?  

we cant just take the 4 gospels or even the new testament and say that is the Word of God and thats all i need.  i personally made that mistake before and God opened my eyes real quick and it was painful...

we are to follow Christ, but Christ is God. the Word is God.  we cant cherry pick verses or the ones that we like.  thats all i am saying.

in the OT God used whatever or whoever He wanted to take somebody out.  was it fair that all of pharoahs men drowned while chasing Moses across the red sea?  yes.
was Moses guilty of murder? no. well Jesus was right there  parting the red sea knowing He was gonna let it come back and kill hundreds of soldiers.

we cannot put God in a box. He alone is Sovereign. no our govt is not sovereign.  and we cannot pick out a verse here and there that says "do no violence" while ignoring hundreds others that tell us to protect and kill if necessary.

i am not saying that roeder was acting for God. i am saying that it is possible. i think its funny, the govt can force a hitman marksman to go and blow off the head of an "suspected" militant and the country praises the idea and praises the govt...

yet God in His own world which He created does not have the authority to do the same (proven in the Bible...) ... and if He does then the person who did it... is a maniac and deserves punishment by the same govt who does the same thing with PRAISE from the people!!!!  the govt who is only the minister of justice for God can kill people and we applaud them...  but if God wants to use another method to kill someone, we want them punished.?.?.?  maybe God had to use roeder to kill tiller because our govt is the one that gives tiller his power to murder the innocent.  since God cant rely on His minister of justice to take out tiller (they give him his power instead), God gets somebody else to do it but that person is a maniac...  

can you not see the problem with this way of thinking?

we have the Biblical right to self defense all day long for ourselves and families.  what about those babies?   whose defending them?  one man decides he is gonna defend those babies (either with or without the blessing of God, we dont know) and the public goes mad and wants him put to death...  why were yall not screamin for the death of tiller?  the one who deserved to die.

justice was served and tiller got what he deserved. God is sovereign and He allowed it to happen. as far as we know... roeder "could be" a hero in the eyes of God... yall can pull out verses that say he is not. i can pull out verses that say he is... but its only God's opinion of roeder that matters.


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> why is it a man can be "called" in the old testament by God to go and whack another evil person. an angel could be called to go whack another. king david, ditto.
> 
> but not now. because a few verses out of the new testament are being taken literally and the similar verses in the old testament are being left out. Is Jesus God or isnt He?
> 
> ...



I have no right to defend myself.
I don't see self defense anywhere in Christ at all. 
I see the exact opposite of self defense everywhere I look in Jesus.
I see God the Father vindicating him, and I see all of heaven devoted to this one thing...his glory.
But Jesus, did nothing of himself, for himself.
That I have been forgiven when I lapse from what I have seen of his glory assures me others are also. 
But my weakness in the flesh does not diminish the truth his glorious liberty from having had to ever care about himself at all.

In truth I believe he came to show that.
God cares for the sparrows, who do not one thing to produce those things needed to give them life...and God so cares for them that not one can fall without his notice.

The whole of the world's system is a result of our doing the one thing God never wanted us to do, for it was his (and is) his delight, privilege and joy...to care for us.

We put forth our hand in disobedience to do something we believed would make us like God.
While God had already determined to make us into his image and likeness... and so, our own disobedience made way for the revelation of our deliverance from our own will and ways...Jesus the Christ.
Is Jesus, has Jesus, always been God's will for us?
Yes.
He is not plan B.
Did God even allow our disobedience to be part of the plan? 
Yes.

Did God conclude all in disobedience that all may know his mercy?

"God causes ALL things to work together for the good for those that love God and are the called according to his purpose..."  

But do we now preach disobedience (as some might say) that grace may abound? God forbid...

Who of us is in Adam...still trying to hide when we put our hand forth to eat the wrong fruit?

Who is in Christ?
Ready to die, not kill, for that one who eats wrongly.

God knows.
May we all appear to his glory.


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 31, 2010)

Israel said:


> I have no right to defend myself.
> I don't see self defense anywhere in Christ at all.
> I see the exact opposite of self defense everywhere I look in Jesus.
> I see God the Father vindicating him, and I see all of heaven devoted to this one thing...his glory.
> ...




all i'll say is that Jesus is the God of the whole Bible and not just a few verses.  we are to be doers of the Word (in its entirety) and not doers IF the Word lines up with our favorite verses...  Jesus was not a pacifist and did not teach pacifism but meekness, which is power under control and yielded to God.  

He taught us to use our brain and protect ourselves as needed not just let the wicked trample all over us...  and i'll stand by my comment that tiller got what he deserved. and now he's getting what he deserves and he will continue to get what he deserves forever...  roeder will also get what he deserves because God will pay him back... but how will he pay him back?  either judgement or rewards...  its God's decision.

i do know this... thanks to roeder, many babies will not have their brains sucked out of their heads by the evil doctors like tiller, and have their body parts sold to pharmaceutical companies.


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## pileit (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> all i'll say is that Jesus is the God of the whole Bible and not just a few verses.  we are to be doers of the Word (in its entirety) and not doers IF the Word lines up with our favorite verses...  Jesus was not a pacifist and did not teach pacifism but meekness, which is power under control and yielded to God.
> 
> He taught us to use our brain and protect ourselves as needed not just let the wicked trample all over us...  and i'll stand by my comment that tiller got what he deserved. and now he's getting what he deserves and he will continue to get what he deserves forever...  roeder will also get what he deserves because God will pay him back... but how will he pay him back?  either judgement or rewards...  its God's decision.
> 
> i do know this... thanks to roeder, many babies will not have their brains sucked out of their heads by the evil doctors like tiller, and have their body parts sold to pharmaceutical companies.




BH do you think this would be much different than taking out Osama Bin Laden with govt approval and collecting a $50,000,000 reward?


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## earl (Jan 31, 2010)

''all i'll say is that Jesus is the God of the whole Bible and not just a few verses''

Sounds like reason to edit the bible. Take what you need and ignore the rest.


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> all i'll say is that Jesus is the God of the whole Bible and not just a few verses.  we are to be doers of the Word (in its entirety) and not doers IF the Word lines up with our favorite verses...  Jesus was not a pacifist and did not teach pacifism but meekness, which is power under control and yielded to God.
> 
> He taught us to use our brain and protect ourselves as needed not just let the wicked trample all over us...  and i'll stand by my comment that tiller got what he deserved. and now he's getting what he deserves and he will continue to get what he deserves forever...  roeder will also get what he deserves because God will pay him back... but how will he pay him back?  either judgement or rewards...  its God's decision.
> 
> i do know this... thanks to roeder, many babies will not have their brains sucked out of their heads by the evil doctors like tiller, and have their body parts sold to pharmaceutical companies.



That which is born of the flesh...is flesh.
That which is born of the spirit, is spirit.
If evil is so easily overcome by a gun or a sword, then Christ died in vain.

Conquering the whole world occurs in one place, that little bit of earth between the ground and the tops of our heads. 

You want to kill an enemy of Christ...start there.

It's not wise to be one who recommends men should get what they deserve.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 31, 2010)

Israel said:


> That which is born of the flesh...is flesh.
> That which is born of the spirit, is spirit.
> If evil is so easily overcome by a gun or a sword, then Christ died in vain.
> 
> ...



I pray I don't get what I deserve from God.


----------



## WTM45 (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> can we be 100% CERTAIN that the Holy Spirit did not convict roeder to kill tiller? no.
> 
> is there ANY chance at all that the Holy Spirit might have convicted roeder to pay back tiller? yes.



Seek professional help.  Please.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Jan 31, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Seek professional help.  Please.



i love you 45. gimme a hug.


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## ambush80 (Jan 31, 2010)

I've seen the light.  God has told me to be the tip of his sword.  I have never been so certain of anything in my entire life.  Y'all pray for Ambush.   He is sent forth to do the work of the Lord.  Many will not understand what he does in this life time, but when we all rejoice at the the foot of the King, all will be revealed.

BeenHuntin, my brother, you have galvanized my resolve.  May I do justice to the righteousness of our Lord and Savior.  

The wicked, fear my wrath......


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## pileit (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> can we be 100% CERTAIN that the Holy Spirit did not convict roeder to kill tiller? no.
> 
> is there ANY chance at all that the Holy Spirit might have convicted roeder to pay back tiller? yes.
> 
> ...




BH what would you do if you felt the Holy Spirit was leading you to whack off one of these devil possessed maniacs?


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 31, 2010)

Proverbs 5:14
I was almost in all evil in the midst of the congregation and assembly.


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## Sugar HillDawg (Jan 31, 2010)

I am having trouble reconciling the fact that a late term abortion doctor was in church. How does he do what he does and worship the lord too?


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## centerpin fan (Jan 31, 2010)

Sugar HillDawg said:


> I am having trouble reconciling the fact that a late term abortion doctor was in church. How does he do what he does and worship the lord too?



He believed that, by providing abortion services, he was doing the Lord's will.

Seriously.


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2010)

Jesus is not a pacifist.
He is the Prince of Peace.
And:
" God is sovereign enough to use one of His own to take out a devil possessed maniac... you dont know the God of the Bible"

Do you know who "of his own" he used...and how he delivers those oppressed by the devil, or if you prefer,  "a devil possessed maniac... "

Jesus has no trouble dealing with devils.

He also knows how to separate the baby from the bathwater, so that what is precious might be saved, what is useless might be discarded.


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## Big7 (Jan 31, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> i cant see God condemning the murderer (Roeder) in this case...  all throughout the old testament... God demanded the evil people (Tiller) get whacked...  either He whacked 'em, an angel did or had somebody else whack 'em... God hates the shedding of innocent blood.
> 
> but glory to God and here's why... the Bible says babies go to heaven... forget limbo. so like gt said, 48 mil babies have been sacrificed since 1973.  yes, abortion is a sacrifice to a god. the gods of "convenience" and "self"..
> 
> IF all of those babies had been born, many, most, some or whatever # would have rejected Christ and would have eventually found themselves in outer darkness...  but now... they are in heaven instead.  its far better to die at birth and go to heaven than be born, live, die and go to the lake where there is no fishin...    God is merciful and wise...



I'm  with you on "get whacked...  either He whacked 'em, an angel did or had somebody else whack 'em... God hates the shedding of innocent blood".

Only God knows where Roeder will end up.
Somebody needed to do it, the law did not stop
"Tiller the killer"

Not de-railing the thread but a little lesson on "limbo",
just to clear up the Protestant misconception:


•that their condition is one of happiness, 
•that it is temporary, and 
•that it is to be replaced by a condition of final and permanent bliss when the Messianic Kingdom is established.

Short version: Un-born babies and infants DO go to heaven. NOT trying to

More HERE:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09256a.htm


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

earl said:


> Some of ya'll really ,really scare me. How can ''thou shalt not murder ''be taken out of context ?



It cannot be...you are right earl.

I think though, that you are stretching.  You need to understand the distiction between murder and righteous killing.

You probably consider that splitting hairs or a cop out.  But you need to understand the difference.  It is very clear that God killed and told to kill for righteous purposes.  Murder is a different concept.  It is not for righteous purposes.  Both are killing.  But one is for God's purpose and for his glory (yes....for his glory).  The other is a selfish sinful act.

Did this guy kill that doctor for righteous purposes?  If you're asking my opinion, HECK NO!  I don't believe for a second that God told him to kill that man.  I'm not buyin'.

That said, there is no way for me to know for certain.  Cop out #2 for this post.


----------



## earl (Feb 1, 2010)

Do you think in the original Hebrew that it said ''thou shalt not murder except for My glory'' and it got lost in transliteration ?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 1, 2010)

Big7 said:


> I'm  with you on "get whacked...  either He whacked 'em, an angel did or had somebody else whack 'em... God hates the shedding of innocent blood".
> 
> Only God knows where Roeder will end up.
> Somebody needed to do it, the law did not stop
> ...



I know where more of those baby killers do their evil bidding.  

God needs someone with impeccable discernment abilities, perhaps some prior military experience; maybe and older person, in the Winter of their years, someone that has led a full life already and is now prepared to take up the sword for Christ and save the little children.

I know where the evil doers are.  Is there someone who is ready to make them pay?


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 1, 2010)

Unfortunately, there are plenty of them around.  And Sunday Schools worldwide are ensuring a new generation will be there to take their place.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

earl said:


> Do you think in the original Hebrew that it said ''thou shalt not murder except for My glory'' and it got lost in transliteration ?



No...it said thout shall not murder.  You missed my point.  Murder is a selfish act.  Murder does not cover all killing, would you not agree?

There is murder and then there is righteous killing (I don't know how else to word it..but I hope you follow what I'm saying).

There are mutually exclusive concepts.  One cannot be a type of the other.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Unfortunately, there are plenty of them around.  And Sunday Schools worldwide are ensuring a new generation will be there to take their place.



Painting a little broad with that brush are we Picasso?


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Painting a little broad with that brush are we Picasso?



Wouldn't want to leave any out that pride themselves on their abilities to brainwash and manipulate!


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> There is murder and then there is righteous killing (I don't know how else to word it..but I hope you follow what I'm saying).
> 
> There are mutually exclusive concepts.  One cannot be a type of the other.




I know you don't condone the actions nor his defense.  But, let's get a little deeper here.

Where do we draw a line?  If a society will allow a "spirit" or a "Holy Ghost" to influence and endorse/condone/command such an act of violence, it will surely fall apart in short order.
I don't care what the underlying or motivational issue was.
Blaming a spirit is baloney.
The act even occured in a church building, of all places.  What irony.  
Sad.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I know you don't condone the actions nor his defense.  But, let's get a little deeper here.
> 
> Where do we draw a line?  If a society will allow a "spirit" or a "Holy Ghost" to influence and endorse/condone/command such an act of violence, it will surely fall apart in short order.
> I don't care what the underlying or motivational issue was.
> ...



Nobody is blaming a spirit (except the killer...and I agree it's likely baloney).

Soceities have been "allowing" higher powers to "condone" killing for centuries.  I don't see how the fall apart in short order comment works out very well for you given that fact.

My take on it is that this guy was mentally unstable and a lunatic.  He killed the Dr. because he convinced himself that God would want him to do it.  In no way does that mean that God caused him to, asked him to or condoned him doing it.  What it means is that he was a psychopath who convinced himself that God told him to do it.  The Bible tells us that if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, such an act would be in direct conflict with being filled...and I agree and can testify to that fact as can many others here.

What I see both first hand and scripturally is that God is (at least temporarily) out of the business of commanding righteous killings.  Why?  I won't pretend to know.

Annanious and Saphira (I know I just butchered those names) are an example of God striking someone down in the NT.  But there was no proxy for him....he did it as I'm sure he continues to do.

There are lots of examples in the OT where God commanded righteous killing.  But somewhere in the silent period, he got out of that business IMO and has not returned to it.

But let's go back to the Ten Commandments since that's where you guys want to hang your hat.  Do you disagree that there is a difference between murder and righteous killing or is all killing murder in your eyes?  

If we don't agree on that single point, then there can be no resolution to the question at hand.  You guys will believe that all killing is murder and we will go on believing that there is only ONE being that is justified if he chooses to kill....and no...that does not make him evil/uncompassionate/unjust, etc.


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm not confusing the "authority" of government with the individual being allowed to kill at random or at their individual discretion.
Big difference in the two ideals.
Allowing the individual to conduct themselves as judge, jury and executioner will result in a fallen society in short order.

We agree on the convicted's fundamental defense as total baloney.  He is simply a fruitcake.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 1, 2010)

earl said:


> Hunting and then murdering a man should result in the death penalty. IMHO


 
Hunting and then murdering a child should also... IMHO

DB BB


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 1, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Hunting and then murdering a child should also... IMHO
> 
> DB BB



Where does that happen?  Is it some new sport in Sri Lanka or Borneo I have not heard about?


----------



## earl (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> No...it said thout shall not murder.  You missed my point.  Murder is a selfish act.  Murder does not cover all killing, would you not agree?
> 
> There is murder and then there is righteous killing (I don't know how else to word it..but I hope you follow what I'm saying).
> 
> There are mutually exclusive concepts.  One cannot be a type of the other.





I think your use of the term religious killing is inaccurate in this case. Defense of my home ,children and even against an enemy my country is at war with fall under that term. In all cases ,the law determines what rightious killings are. What Roeder did was murder a man who was LEGALLY performing his chosen proffesion. 
Now if you want to define rightious killings based on religion,we have a problem. The Muslims who perpetrated 9/11 were following their God's dictates. Was it rightious ? Not in my book. Nor was Roeder any more devine intervention than the terrorists claimed they were.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 1, 2010)

earl said:


> I think your use of the term religious killing is inaccurate in this case. Defense of my home ,children and even against an enemy my country is at war with fall under that term. In all cases ,the law determines what rightious killings are. What Roeder did was murder a man who was LEGALLY performing his chosen proffesion.
> Now if you want to define rightious killings based on religion,we have a problem. The Muslims who perpetrated 9/11 were following their God's dictates. Was it rightious ? Not in my book. Nor was Roeder any more devine intervention than the terrorists claimed they were.



God determines all things.. men only sin and are not capable of squat except offending God.

the muslims did not perpetrate 911... your beloved govt did...


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 1, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the muslims did not perpetrate 911... your beloved govt did...


----------



## earl (Feb 1, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> God determines all things.. men only sin and are not capable of squat except offending God.
> 
> the muslims did not perpetrate 911... your beloved govt did...




Well, alrighty then !!!Have you filled your quota of abortionist whacking ????Don't want you to offend the big guy.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 1, 2010)

earl said:


> Well, alrighty then !!!Have you filled your quota of abortionist whacking ????Don't want you to offend the big guy.



i will always oppose the baby killers... and there is no quota on that. God hates the shedding of innocent blood.  was tillers blood innocent? no.   God cannot be mocked. you reap what you sow...   you live by the sword you die by the sword...


----------



## earl (Feb 1, 2010)

Opposing and killing are two different things. I think Roeder found out what the quota on killing one  is. I do not see were God has been mocked any where in this thread. Man's interpretation of God's will has been mocked with good reason. Had Roeder used a sword as he said he thought about , he would not have been convicted of murder but would probably have gotten a pretty good jail term for cutting off the Doctors hands .


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## Israel (Feb 1, 2010)

Carnal weapons yield carnal results.
That which is born of the flesh...


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 1, 2010)

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


----------



## earl (Feb 1, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> 1 Timothy 5:8
> But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 1, 2010)

earl said:


>





it was for someone specific earl...  sorry. but sometimes you are not the center of attention....


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## Israel (Feb 2, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Nobody is blaming a spirit (except the killer...and I agree it's likely baloney).
> 
> Soceities have been "allowing" higher powers to "condone" killing for centuries.  I don't see how the fall apart in short order comment works out very well for you given that fact.
> 
> ...



We don't even have to tie ourselves in such knots over definitions...

1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

So, when someone puts their hand up to quickly volunteer

Jesus: Looks like there are some folks resisting my will...

Student: I'll kill them!! I'll kill them...send me, Oh! Oh! send me , Oh, pick me Jesus, pick me....puleeeaase!


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> the muslims did not perpetrate 911... your beloved govt did...



BH...PLEASE tell me you're kidding.  Please tell me you didn't just invalidate pretty much every post you've ever made on this forum.  Please tell me you're kidding.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2010)

earl said:


> I think your use of the term religious killing is inaccurate in this case. Defense of my home ,children and even against an enemy my country is at war with fall under that term. In all cases ,the law determines what rightious killings are. What Roeder did was murder a man who was LEGALLY performing his chosen proffesion.
> Now if you want to define rightious killings based on religion,we have a problem. The Muslims who perpetrated 9/11 were following their God's dictates. Was it rightious ? Not in my book. Nor was Roeder any more devine intervention than the terrorists claimed they were.




What you're missing here, though, is that there is only ONE righteous being.  Yes, yes...I know you don't buy that and I know you'll say that every religion on the planet says the same thing...and I admit, that's true.

What I'm asking is that you understand the perspective.  From the Christian perspective, the truth is that there is only on true God and he is the only righteous one.  

When you talk about defending your home, I would call that more "justifiable"....not righteous.  I know we're getting technical with details here. 

The argument, "who's to say what is righteous?  Every religions says differently." does not resonate.  For the Christian, there is only one righteous God.  All others are false (and yes I know that muslims think the same and so on and so on...they are wrong..


----------



## Israel (Feb 2, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> What you're missing here, though, is that there is only ONE righteous being.  Yes, yes...I know you don't buy that and I know you'll say that every religion on the planet says the same thing...and I admit, that's true.
> 
> What I'm asking is that you understand the perspective.  From the Christian perspective, the truth is that there is only on true God and he is the only righteous one.
> 
> ...



well said...and well understood.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 2, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Where does that happen? Is it some new sport in Sri Lanka or Borneo I have not heard about?


 
It happens right in our own towns...

There will be a judgement for america for the amount of abortions that are allowed in the name of reproductive freedom. I am surprised God's wrath hasn't visited us sooner...

DB BB


----------



## WTM45 (Feb 2, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> It happens right in our own towns...
> 
> There will be a judgement for america for the amount of abortions that are allowed in the name of reproductive freedom. I am surprised God's wrath hasn't visited us sooner...
> 
> DB BB



Well, just keep on prayin' for it.
Maybe you won't be disappointed.

I hope you do not believe "God" used Roeder...........


----------



## Israel (Feb 2, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Well, just keep on prayin' for it.
> Maybe you won't be disappointed.
> 
> I hope you do not believe "God" used Roeder...........



There's a difference between God using Roeder...and Roeder claiming "I heard from God to kill him".
God uses everything, winos on bar stools, pigeons on rooftops, lillies in fields, roaches on old meat, and even someone like me. We are all ultimately going to prove one thing, either by our redemption or our perdition...Jesus is Glorious.
It is far different to acknowledge that than to say in presumption..."God told me to do so and so..."
Now since I don't really know why Roeder claims to have killed Tiller, other than what I hear reported or bandied about, I probably shouldn't try to attribute anything to him of which I am not convinced.
On the whole, however, I remain convinced God need not, and does not resort to the carnal methods we have developed for perforating, decapitating, exsanguinating, filleting, nor incinerating (generally by stake) those with whom we are troubled.
His word is enough to do it.
And when need be, even in this covenant of grace, he has shown himself strong on behalf of his church to remove polluters.


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 2, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> BH...PLEASE tell me you're kidding.  Please tell me you didn't just invalidate pretty much every post you've ever made on this forum.  Please tell me you're kidding.



all i'll say about 911 is this. i ain't buying what the 911 commission or govt is selling...


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## WTM45 (Feb 2, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> all i'll say about 911 is this. i ain't buying what the 911 commission or govt is selling...



Tin foil hat time folks.
Roll 'em up.  Put 'em on.  Wait for the choppers.


----------



## tell sackett (Feb 2, 2010)

I hear Wally world is having a good sale on tin foil.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 2, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> all i'll say about 911 is this. i ain't buying what the 911 commission or govt is selling...




10-4 buddy.  keep on keepin' on.


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## WTM45 (Feb 2, 2010)

Israel said:


> There's a difference between God using Roeder...and Roeder claiming "I heard from God to kill him".
> God uses everything, winos on bar stools, pigeons on rooftops, lillies in fields, roaches on old meat, and even someone like me. We are all ultimately going to prove one thing, either by our redemption or our perdition...Jesus is Glorious.
> It is far different to acknowledge that than to say in presumption..."God told me to do so and so..."
> Now since I don't really know why Roeder claims to have killed Tiller, other than what I hear reported or bandied about, I probably shouldn't try to attribute anything to him of which I am not convinced.
> ...



If some wish to believe a deity used Roeder, Polpot, Hitler, Mao or even President Johnson they have to also believe a deity had a way to "tell" or communicate to that person what to do.

Voices, dreams, interpretation of visions, miracles, hearing a sermon....whatever.  They had to get that message.

And that message seems to the those who are sane as a garbled and un-decoded mess called mental illness.

I think much more of a man who can accept his own actions and deeds as being of his own doing and choice.
When one tries to use a "defense" based on a religious implication, they drop to the the same level as pond scum in my not so humble opinion.


----------



## thedeacon (Feb 2, 2010)

Israel said:


> Tiller would not be dead had not God known it. As with the many babies.
> Those millions of babies are not the source of grief...each is safe...it is men acting bestially and scarring their precious souls in complete disregard and rebellion.
> The value of a soul is equal to the blood of the slaughtered innocent Son of God. That we may count them of so little worth is testimony to the blindness we have embraced.
> Whole world< one soul.



Amen, Amen, Amen

We cannot correct the sin of the world by committing the same sin, that goes against all the teaching of Jesus in the New Testiment.


----------



## gurn (Feb 3, 2010)

I having a little problem. We got a guy thats murdered
countless babies, and would have continued to so if someone didnt have the fortitude to stop him. 
What am I missing here? 
I see no need to split hairs, or even the need for bible verse arguments. Hitler did it to the unwanted children, although he used a gas chamber instead of a clinic. 
What did we do to him?


----------



## earl (Feb 3, 2010)

No, you have a big problem. Why stop with Tiller ? Let's make a list.


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## gurn (Feb 3, 2010)

Well buddy I'm ah waitin for my list. I sure would preciate it.


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## earl (Feb 3, 2010)

Pedophiles 
Homosexuals
Rapists
Adulterers
I am sure there are one or two other types that break God's laws that I left out. Since God himself said all sin is equal except one ,let's get started. Or maybe just get going on the blasphemers since that is the only sin that got recognition. Oh ,wait, Tiller wasn't a blasphemer. Whoops . Reckon God will give him a do over ?


----------



## gurn (Feb 3, 2010)

Ok Earl, lets start with first on my list. Was this man murdering, or killing if you perfer, babies?


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## Israel (Feb 3, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> If some wish to believe a deity used Roeder, Polpot, Hitler, Mao or even President Johnson they have to also believe a deity had a way to "tell" or communicate to that person what to do.
> 
> Voices, dreams, interpretation of visions, miracles, hearing a sermon....whatever.  They had to get that message.
> 
> ...



I think you may misunderstand what I see when I tried to express the difference between "being used by God" and obedience to Him.
But since you believe the whole matter to be based upon a failed supposition, it is most likely fruitless.
Suffice it to say even the disobedient are used by God for his purposes, if for no other reason than that the obedient may marvel at God's forbearance toward what resists him vehemently.


----------



## earl (Feb 3, 2010)

gurn said:


> Ok Earl, lets start with first on my list. Was this man murdering, or killing if you perfer, babies?



Dr. Tiller's proffession has not been called to question. Roeder's claim to be doing God's work for him is in question. That you think Tiller's murder was okie dokie was what I was adressing.
Up to speed now ?
Who else you got on your list  ?


----------



## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> Dr. Tiller's proffession has not been called to question. Roeder's claim to be doing God's work for him is in question. That you think Tiller's murder was okie dokie was what I was adressing.
> Up to speed now ?
> Who else you got on your list  ?



this is in complete opposition to the Word of God...  i love ya earl... but you are way off.  a doctor can kill the innocent as he pleases (as allowed by other evil men) breaking the Word of God. and thats ok.  you can kill an intruder (in your home) and thats ok...  but if someone decides they're gonna kill another murderer...  well thats not ok....  says who?  when men make men, their sovereign.... you end up with extreme error...  men are not sovereign...  God is...

the dr. was not above the law.  you are not above the law.   roeder was not above the law... the problem is in the group that interprets the law...  which is the govt.  the govt should never make the laws... they are not capable. only God is.

isnt it funny that a baby murderer is "ok" (according to the govt) ... yet another man can kill the baby murderer and that is not "ok" (according to the govt)...  yet if a man (doctor, governor, president, whoever) might kill one of your own, earl, you would demand his immediate death as justice...  ??

i dont know how someone as bright as you regarding the Bible... can ignore the evil that exists in this world and in the govt that rules the world.

Proverbs 17:15
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.


----------



## Israel (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> this is in complete opposition to the Word of God...  i love ya earl... but you are way off.  a doctor can kill the innocent as he pleases (as allowed by other evil men) breaking the Word of God. and thats ok.  you can kill an intruder (in your home) and thats ok...  but if someone decides they're gonna kill another murderer...  well thats not ok....  says who?  when men make men, their sovereign.... you end up with extreme error...  men are not sovereign...  God is...
> 
> the dr. was not above the law.  you are not above the law.   roeder was not above the law... the problem is in the group that interprets the law...  which is the govt.  the govt should never make the laws... they are not capable. only God is.
> 
> ...



I'm still trying to understand the meaning of your last line in reference to all that's been said about shooting people, even unarmed people at that.
Are you saying that to have anything but an endorsement for Roeder's actions, but especially his motives (for that's where the righteous are judged)...is an abomination to God?


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## DanBROWNING (Feb 4, 2010)

vengence,is mine saith the Lord,and surely I will repay. the bible tells us to pray for our enamies, this is where we usually drop the ball, pray for them, and God will heap coals of fire on their heads and just maybe he will change their views. He does have the power to harden or unharden a persons heart. pray,pray,and pray somemore.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2010)

DanBROWNING said:


> vengence,is mine saith the Lord,and surely I will repay. the bible tells us to pray for our enamies, this is where we usually drop the ball, pray for them, and God will heap coals of fire on their heads and just maybe he will change their views. He does have the power to harden or unharden a persons heart. pray,pray,and pray somemore.




It seems, Dan, some want to argue that Roeder heard from God to be his instrument of vengeance.
I don't know that Roeder even knows Jesus the Lord.
Now, that Tiller got killed in God's appointed time, none can argue.
 But that does not automtically equate the tool God allowed to be used with any righteous motives, or even by his own admission, make him "the hand of God".

I hear what you are saying...and agree...till we come to see prayer as something other than the "last resort", but the weapon of our warfare that is made mighty through God to accomplish all of his desire in and through us...we are still calling the one who says "ask, and you shall receive..." something of a bit of a silly man.


----------



## DanBROWNING (Feb 4, 2010)

Israel said:


> It seems, Dan, some want to argue that Roeder heard from God to be his instrument of vengeance.
> I don't know that Roeder even knows Jesus the Lord.
> Now, that Tiller got killed in God's appointed time, none can argue.
> But that does not automtically equate the tool God allowed to be used with any righteous motives, or even by his own admission, make him "the hand of God".
> ...



I agree.A weapon more powerful than any man or weapon made by man,prayer.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 4, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Well, just keep on prayin' for it.
> Maybe you won't be disappointed.
> 
> I hope you do not believe "God" used Roeder...........


 
Maybe He did... Maybe He didn't... I have no clue... but there is a reason for everything that happens... We may not understand those reasons...

One thing is for sure Roeder will have to face the consequences of his actions... just like Tiller.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 4, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> And that message seems to the those who are sane as a garbled and un-decoded mess called mental illness.


 
What is sanity and where did it come from and are you sure you are sane? if so how?

DB BB


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## gurn (Feb 4, 2010)

Ok Earl, lets start with first on my list. Was this man murdering, or killing if you perfer, babies? 




earl said:


> Dr. Tiller's proffession has not been called to question. Roeder's claim to be doing God's work for him is in question. That you think Tiller's murder was okie dokie was what I was adressing.
> Up to speed now ?
> Who else you got on your list  ?




Its just a simple question, as many dont feel it is. That would be very revelent to the killers actions, in ones own mind.


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> this is in complete opposition to the Word of God...  i love ya earl... but you are way off.  a doctor can kill the innocent as he pleases (as allowed by other evil men) breaking the Word of God. and thats ok.  you can kill an intruder (in your home) and thats ok...  but if someone decides they're gonna kill another murderer...  well thats not ok....  says who?  when men make men, their sovereign.... you end up with extreme error...  men are not sovereign...  God is...
> 
> the dr. was not above the law.  you are not above the law.   roeder was not above the law... the problem is in the group that interprets the law...  which is the govt.  the govt should never make the laws... they are not capable. only God is.
> 
> ...




Love you right back buddy. 
The law of the land draws the LEGAL line between what Roeder did and what Tiller did. My point,the one gurn is avoiding, is that if you use your religious convictions to justify murder of an abortionist , where do you draw the line to stop ?  Sounds ridiculous but if you kill a cow in Nepal ,you have commited a crime. I don't think they execute you but you get  my drift.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 4, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I pray I don't get what I deserve from God.



Oh Lord have mercy, me too.


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

gurn said:


> Ok Earl, lets start with first on my list. Was this man murdering, or killing if you perfer, babies?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





''in ones own mind''

Fortunately  I don't have to worry about that . That is where the legal and judicial systems come into play. The exception to the rule is the nutcase who thinks he doesn't have to live within the law of the land .
The relevant thing is that what Roeder did was illegal. What ever word you choose,killing or murdering, to describe what Tiller was doing , is legal in the US.
Whatever happens to Roeder after he dies is up to him and his god. Just like the terrorist's afterlife will be between them and their god. Until they get their it will be between them and man's law.


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## gurn (Feb 4, 2010)

So I take it your not going to answer the simple question.
Yes or no is alot easyer to type than all that. 
Then we can go on with the rest of the list.


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

A simple yes or no does not answer the question. First you have to define baby. A baby is a living BREATHING being. So ,no . Tiller did not kill or murder a baby. Next . Is a fetus a being and if so at what stage ? If the answer is yes at all stages, the next question is , is birth control mureder in any way shape or form. To answer this question do you go with the Catholic view or the Baptist view. Once you decide that ,you make one of the religious views wrong. 

Not so simple any more.


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## gurn (Feb 4, 2010)

A baby is a living BREATHING being. So ,no 

Ok then, if you believe he wasnt killing babies, I can understand your point of view. That was easy.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> A baby is a living BREATHING being


 
What is your definition of Breathing?

DB BB


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

oxygen from taking in and exhaling air,


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> oxygen from taking in and exhaling air,


 
So Earl, you mean to tell me that you are even ok with partial birth abortions then?

By your reasoning... the child is not alive until it takes in air... in a traditional sense...

I guess it doesn't matter that the child has been breathing through the mother during the pregnancy...

DB BB


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

If ya'll want to start a thread on abortion and all it entails ,please do. I am not a doctor ,so if it is precise medical terms you want ,I won't be much help. In case you missed the OP it pertained to whether or not God guided Roeder to murder. 
DB BB you pretty much know where I stand on abortion  and the legalities for and against. I will reiterate for gurn.
The government has no business telling a woman what she can and cannot do with her body.
If a woman doesn't obey God's commands , man's law won't bother her one way or the other. 
It is none of my or your business what a woman ,other than a wfe , does with her body. 
Abortion for convienence shows moral bankruptcy IMHO.
Abortion for medical reasons should be between a woman ,her husband ,and their doctor.

Now go satrt another thread. I hope I have given ya'll enough ammo for a good start.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

Israel said:


> I'm still trying to understand the meaning of your last line in reference to all that's been said about shooting people, even unarmed people at that.
> Are you saying that to have anything but an endorsement for Roeder's actions, but especially his motives (for that's where the righteous are judged)...is an abomination to God?



no thats not what i am saying. i am sure in all of Christendom the majority do not like that roeder took matters in his own hands.  we dont know what went thru roeder to make him feel like he needed to do what he did.  

i hate abortion too but i have never been compelled to go hurt anyone over it.  but for some reason he did.  in the whole of this thread my point is this: 1) roeder did what he did because of his beliefs 2) his beliefs could have come from God.

did God not approve of David's murder of goliath? all thru the Bible there is verse after verse of God approving of and even commanding His people to go and kill their enemies.  to say that  roeder in no way could have been compelled by God to go in murder tiller is disbelieving the history of the Bible. 

unrepentant sin will get punished. tillers day came and God approved of his murder or it wouldnt have happened.  God is sovereign we are not.


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## DanBROWNING (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no thats not what i am saying. i am sure in all of Christendom the majority do not like that roeder took matters in his own hands.  we dont know what went thru roeder to make him feel like he needed to do what he did.
> 
> i hate abortion too but i have never been compelled to go hurt anyone over it.  but for some reason he did.  in the whole of this thread my point is this: 1) roeder did what he did because of his beliefs 2) his beliefs could have come from God.
> 
> ...



what waS THE LAST THING jESUS TOLD HIS DESCIPLES BEFORE HE ASCENDED TO HEAVEN? I DONT THINK HE TOLD THEM TO KILL HES ENAMIES.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no thats not what i am saying. i am sure in all of Christendom the majority do not like that roeder took matters in his own hands.  we dont know what went thru roeder to make him feel like he needed to do what he did.
> 
> i hate abortion too but i have never been compelled to go hurt anyone over it.  but for some reason he did.  in the whole of this thread my point is this: 1) roeder did what he did because of his beliefs 2) his beliefs could have come from God.
> 
> ...



Indeed, God is sovereign.
And no one except God and Tiller knows if Roeder put a bullet into the brain of a repentant man.
Who knows if that morning (God does) Dr Tiller washed his hands of blood by reckoning rightly with the Lord?
Who knows if the devil put the bug in Roeder's ear and God let it be...knowing Tiller was a weak man after the flesh and that it would be best to take him then in his repentant state.
That he was, in essence, turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh that his spirit might be saved in the Day of the Lord?

Would it be beyond God to save Tiller? And let us all have the narrative all wrong?

If God couldn't save Tiller, where shall I appear?


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## gurn (Feb 4, 2010)

The body in the landfill is not her body. As a "civilized society " that should be everyones business.  Obviously some see it that way, or this thread wouldn't exist.


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

gurn said:


> The body in the landfill is not her body. As a "civilized society " that should be everyones business.  Obviously some see it that way, or this thread wouldn't exist.




Where do you stop allowing man's law to interfere with your decisions ? Should the government pass a law to stop religious medical mutilations ? Otherwise known as circumcision .
You may want to check on your landfills and medical waste theory.

One more question. Do you think all abortions are performed on nonChristian women ?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 4, 2010)

abortion is murder..
killing an abortionist is murder, too.

One unfortunately is legal, the other is not. That's the difference in God's law and man's law.
I choose to live by God's law but I am still under the law of the land whether I like it or not...I won't kill anyone either way.

We don't choose the death penalty for anyone, they choose that for themselves when they commit the crimes that are death penalty crimes, under the law of the land. You can't be for abortions or prochoice and be against the death penalty, well you can but it's kind of an oxymoron isn't it?

I'll trade to outlaw the death penalty to outlaw abortions. But since I have a choice to feel that way, then others can feel how they feel, God will deal with them.

As of now we all have the choice in abortion and a choice in committing a death penalty crime.....i'd say refraining from either would please God.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

Israel said:


> Indeed, God is sovereign.
> And no one except God and Tiller knows if Roeder put a bullet into the brain of a repentant man.
> Who knows if that morning (God does) Dr Tiller washed his hands of blood by reckoning rightly with the Lord?
> Who knows if the devil put the bug in Roeder's ear and God let it be...knowing Tiller was a weak man after the flesh and that it would be best to take him then in his repentant state.
> ...



you people are masters at twisting words and/or putting words in the mouths of others....  i never said God could not save tiller. God can save and does save whom He pleases, not who pleases Him.

is it possible tiller got saved before eating the bullet? yes, but not likely. is it possible roeder wasnt saved either? yes.  can he get saved? yes.

funny how Christians are told to study the Scriptures and then go and toss out everything they dont like. i simply said God could have used roeder to kill tiller and you cannot prove that wrong... God has the right to kill whoever He wants, however He wants... and yes, He can use people to do so... to say otherwise is to be ignorant of Scripture.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> you people are masters at twisting words and/or putting words in the mouths of others....  i never said God could not save tiller. God can save and does save whom He pleases, not who pleases Him.
> 
> is it possible tiller got saved before eating the bullet? yes, but not likely. is it possible roeder wasnt saved either? yes.  can he get saved? yes.
> 
> funny how Christians are told to study the Scriptures and then go and toss out everything they dont like. i simply said God could have used roeder to kill tiller and you cannot prove that wrong... God has the right to kill whoever He wants, however He wants... and yes, He can use people to do so... to say otherwise is to be ignorant of Scripture.



Brother...may I help you?
You project...a lot.
But we can all get past it in Christ.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

Israel said:


> Brother...may I help you?
> You project...a lot.
> But we can all get past it in Christ.



blah blah blah.  more religious philosophy.


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## gurn (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> Where do you stop allowing man's law to interfere with your decisions ? Should the government pass a law to stop religious medical mutilations ? Otherwise known as circumcision .
> You may want to check on your landfills and medical waste theory.
> 
> One more question. Do you think all abortions are performed on nonChristian women ?




When I decide to to take innocent human life for my own convience. I would hope someone would interfear by what ever means necessary.

Earl please take this as a compliment.
You are quite well at spreading out the issue by adding
in all kinds of statements that are somewhat related to, but have no real bearing on the intent of the question, or statement. 
Example: Excatly how the body was desposed of. That may be a enviromental issue, but doesnt really relate to the point. Or the professed religon of a person who pays to kill their child in the womb. 
This method of idea exchange, all though not new, often helps in getting so many issues in the conversation. That no resolve is ever possilble. Notice I didnt fall for it the first time, recon I wont this time either. I held you to a yes or no answer and, you finally can up with one. Thats good, were getting somewhere.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no thats not what i am saying. i am sure in all of Christendom the majority do not like that roeder took matters in his own hands.  we dont know what went thru roeder to make him feel like he needed to do what he did.
> 
> i hate abortion too but i have never been compelled to go hurt anyone over it.  but for some reason he did.  in the whole of this thread my point is this: 1) roeder did what he did because of his beliefs 2) his beliefs could have come from God.
> 
> ...





I understand what you are saying..this is a very grey area for me, too. God can use who or what He chooses to do His will, I do believe that. He can use a billboard to save a soul or the voice of a child to hearken a man's heart to God. But He also says not to kill, but yet the OT says kill your enemies.....so it's confusing for me.

I just know I can't do it. I don't think killing anyone, least for self perservation is ok...but I don't yet have the full mind of God and only have a small portion of the mind of the Christ.


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## Israel (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> blah blah blah.  more religious philosophy.



Nah. You have the peculiar malady of the religiously self righteous...to imagine that every bit of resistance you perceive, every insult you imagine you bear, every bit of what you consider persecution is of course, only attributable to your staunch stand for the integrity of Christ.
Unfortunately brother, it is not.
In many ways you are like child who imagines putting on big shoes is enough to convince everyone you are the "man of the house".
When you childishly make pronouncements like "you people", and then go on to present a straw man (for no one accused you of saying anything...no one twisted your words), you yourself show the ease with which you accuse, when no one is accusing you.
Children do not like to be told..."No!"

No! 
Christ does not tell us to murder...regardless of everything you want to say about "Bible history"
Not because Christ is weak, not because he's mealy mouthed about wickedness, and not because your desire to execute wrath far outstrips your spiritual wisdom.




Do you really imagine you are the only one cognizant of Joshua, or Jehu, or David?
Do you think you are the only one who remembers the Lord's displeasure with Saul and Samuel's hacking Agag to pieces?

You may be able, with God's grace and time to get past seeing how wrong "you people" are...and be able to bear a little introspection to see who the real enemy of the cross is...and find grace to deal with him.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

Israel said:


> Nah. You have the peculiar malady of the religiously self righteous...to imagine that every bit of resistance you perceive, every insult you imagine you bear, every bit of what you consider persecution is of course, only attributable to your staunch stand for the integrity of Christ.
> Unfortunately brother, it is not.
> In many ways you are like child who imagines putting on big shoes is enough to convince everyone you are the "man of the house".
> When you childishly make pronouncements like "you people", and then go on to present a straw man (for no one accused you of saying anything...no one twisted your words), you yourself show the ease with which you accuse, when no one is accusing you.
> ...




i have never in my life seen anyone who can speak so many words... yet never say anything.


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## earl (Feb 4, 2010)

gurn. I am so happy we are getting some where , I just wet myself. Are you this direct and focused setting around a fire with a beer ?


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 4, 2010)

earl said:


> gurn. I am so happy we are getting some where , I just wet myself. Are you this direct and focused setting around a fire with a beer ?



be careful gurn... do you really want to sit around a fire drinking beer with a man that wets himself on forums???


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## pileit (Feb 4, 2010)

Israel said:


> Nah. You have the peculiar malady of the religiously self righteous...to imagine that every bit of resistance you perceive, every insult you imagine you bear, every bit of what you consider persecution is of course, only attributable to your staunch stand for the integrity of Christ.
> Unfortunately brother, it is not.
> In many ways you are like child who imagines putting on big shoes is enough to convince everyone you are the "man of the house".
> When you childishly make pronouncements like "you people", and then go on to present a straw man (for no one accused you of saying anything...no one twisted your words), you yourself show the ease with which you accuse, when no one is accusing you.
> ...





Isreal sometimes you simply amaze me with wisdom and maturity.   I just have to ask can you ever look back see where as a novice you may have been as gongho as some on here are?


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## gurn (Feb 4, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> be careful gurn... do you really want to sit around a fire drinking beer with a man that wets himself on forums???




Earl
I am not direct and focused. The problem is I'd be lucky to be able to rub my belly and pat my head at the same time.  The reason I was so stubborn on multiple subjects was this.  I am simple, easily entertained, and easily confused. When I was young I would hear the grown folks wispering in the other room. Then my mother would raise her voice and say "He is not, he just slow". 
  My fault not yours. 

I'm just an old boy freezing up here in Michigan.  My heart is in, and my family are from Kentucky.  After saying that, I recon I can write closer to how I really talk. 

 Here goes concerning the beer and fire.  
As fir as ah far, I ain't got nary ah farplace in the house. It's not nar warn enuff ta build one outside an stand by it.
Ah feller would frezz his hindend off.
Now bout the drankin. I haint drunk ah lick in yars, but with all this cold and the agervation of us carrin on our dissagreement. Recon If I could git down south next to ah good hot farplace full ah coal, and have me a few good swalers of some good clear corn. I jeest might do it.
 Recon the Lord wouldnt hold it gin me much fir just ah few swallers.
Thanks for breakin the Ice twixed us.


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## Israel (Feb 5, 2010)

pileit said:


> Isreal sometimes you simply amaze me with wisdom and maturity.   I just have to ask can you ever look back see where as a novice you may have been as gongho as some on here are?




Pileit...gung-ho is for marines.

Attributing murder to Christ is for those whose desire for wrath outstrips their appreciation of mercy.


So, if you consider me harsh or fatuous (as I might infer if I read your post and appropriately discern its sarcasm,  and if I am wrong, then I ask you to forgive me, letters on a page are far more easily dissociated from the intent of the speaker)
then I have helped you to not be so "amazed" with me anymore.
Which is a good thing.


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## DanBROWNING (Feb 5, 2010)

Two wrongs, dont make a right.


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## Israel (Mar 11, 2022)

Sometimes it's a good thing to see where you have walked and see if you can teach yourself anything.


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