# Prayer



## welderguy

A fellow member on another thread made the comment that there's no use praying because God already has His plan in place and that plan is unchangeable. I don't quite see it this way, but I'm interested in what you fellas have to say about the matter.


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## hummerpoo

I have heard it said that "Prayer doesn't change God; prayer changes God's People."

That holds true only if one allows the immutables to be just that in considering the statement.


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## K80

We lost a son to cancer, the little fellow in the white shirt in my avatar.  He wasn't expected to make it a month, he made it 15 months.  As hard as the treatments were on him the doctors said his body handled the treatment regimen that was as difficult as they come better than anyone they've ever seen.  I credit prayer to that.  Yes it was God's will for cancer to take Grant but I firmly believe the prayers we prayed and all those thousands prayed on our behalf helped get us those extra relatively good months.


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## gemcgrew

The fellow member does not believe that "God already has His plan in place and that plan is unchangeable".


I have never moved myself to pray.


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## welderguy

God tells us what His will is concerning prayer here in 1 Thess.5....

1 Thessalonians 5:17-19
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.

....but, I don't think we always do His will(at least I know I don't), especially when I quench His Spirit.

James says "ye have not because ye ask not"

So, the question I must ask :
Is there a difference between God's will and  His "plan"?


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## hummerpoo

K80 said:


> We lost a son to cancer, the little fellow in the white shirt in my avatar.  He wasn't expected to make it a month, he made it 15 months.  As hard as the treatments were on him the doctors said his body handled the treatment regimen that was as difficult as they come better than anyone they've ever seen.  I credit prayer to that.  Yes it was God's will for cancer to take Grant but I firmly believe the prayers we prayed and all those thousands prayed on our behalf helped get us those extra relatively good months.



I will think of Grant, and smile, the next time I hear a "talking head" refer to some world leader's legacy.


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## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> God tells us what His will is concerning prayer here in 1 Thess.5....
> 
> 1 Thessalonians 5:17-19
> 17 Pray without ceasing.
> 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
> 19 Quench not the Spirit.
> 
> ....but, I don't think we always do His will(at least I know I don't), especially when I quench His Spirit.
> 
> James says "ye have not because ye ask not"
> 
> So, the question I must ask :
> Is there a difference between God's will and  His "plan"?





gemcgrew said:


> The fellow member does not believe that "God already has His plan in place and that plan is unchangeable".
> 
> 
> I have never moved myself to pray.




18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

"this is the will of God ..." refers to "In every thing give thanks".

Welder, have you been moved to thank God for the knowledge of your transgression which He has given you?

>>"I don't think we always do His will"; by what power is that done?<<


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## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
> 
> "this is the will of God ..." refers to "In every thing give thanks".
> 
> Welder, have you been moved to thank God for the knowledge of your transgression which He has given you?
> 
> >>"I don't think we always do His will"; by what power is that done?<<



Yes, I have been moved many times to thank Him for that knowledge.
But by the same token, there have been times when I know I should thank Him and I simply do not(I quench the Spirit).

Reading further down in James 4, I see this:

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.


And I know that God never moves me to sin. I do that on my own, of my own lust.


Hummer, I get a feeling I may have missed your point.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> And I know that God never moves me to sin. I do that on my own, of my own lust.


"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."Genesis 50:20

Precept - But as for you, ye thought evil against me
Decree - but God meant it unto good

God's purpose(decree) includes the evil thought.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."Genesis 50:20
> 
> Precept - But as for you, ye thought evil against me
> Decree - but God meant it unto good
> 
> God's purpose(decree) includes the evil thought.



Ok, all of that makes very good sense. But then I ask myself, did Joseph's brethren have a choice in what they did? If not, who forced them to do the evil?


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Ok, all of that makes very good sense. But then I ask myself, did Joseph's brethren have a choice in what they did? If not, who forced them to do the evil?


God's purpose includes the choice they made.

God does not have to force, that which he completely controls. He controls the resistance. Force is not required.


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## Big7

welderguy said:


> A fellow member on another thread made the comment that there's no use praying because God already has His plan in place and that plan is unchangeable. I don't quite see it this way, but I'm interested in what you fellas have to say about the matter.



I believe that's the so-called elect wing of Christianity.

I know I have many prayers answered.
Some while I didn't WANT to know the real truth
but kept praying, I got my answer, like it or not,
I still got answers.

PS.. Some MAJOR ones right here lately.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> God's purpose includes the choice they made.
> 
> God does not have to force, that which he completely controls. He controls the resistance. Force is not required.



I get what you're saying(I think).
God's master plan will  come to pass, no matter what bad choices,or good, that we make.

And when He says "ye have not because ye ask not", He not only controlled my not asking,but also the not having?

But then that brings me back to His command to "pray without ceasing."
Why would He command me to pray without ceasing, and then turn around and control my prayerlessness?(is that a word?)


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> God's purpose includes the choice they made.
> 
> God does not have to force, that which he completely controls. He controls the resistance. Force is not required.



Another thread goes on "What is true?" But, or rather... God knows.

Your few words _seem in me_ to want to release a torrent, but mercy has already won. And so I would rather simply delight in them.


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## Israel

welderguy said:


> I get what you're saying(I think).
> God's master plan will  come to pass, no matter what bad choices,or good, that we make.
> 
> And when He says "ye have not because ye ask not", He not only controlled my not asking,but also the not having?
> 
> But then that brings me back to His command to "pray without ceasing."
> Why would He command me to pray without ceasing, and then turn around and control my prayerlessness?(is that a word?)



To whatever degree our intercourse is less than in the fullness of God _among things_, asking, seeking, knocking, will engender a search for _a reason_ of their instruction.
But their instruction is from reason itself. Preferably reason...Himself.


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## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
> 
> "this is the will of God ..." refers to "In every thing give thanks".
> 
> Welder, have you been moved to thank God for the knowledge of your transgression which He has given you?
> 
> >>"I don't think we always do His will"; by what power is that done?<<



"You who are far away, hear what I have done; And you who are near, acknowledge My might." Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?" 
He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;…




Yes! There is One who lives...there.


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## welderguy

David didn't know what God's purpose was in his sin with Bathsheba. God allowed it to happen. Whether God did this by removing David's restraint, or if this weakness was already in place(because of Adam), I cannot say for sure.
But, I can certainly relate to what David said here:

2 Sam.12:22 
22And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?

We don't petition God as to twist His arm, but to beg His grace, and He always provides it in every situation. This I know.


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## 1eyefishing

welderguy said:


> A fellow member on another thread made the comment that there's no use praying because God already has His plan in place and that plan is unchangeable.[WA/QUOTE]
> 
> Sounds like predestination to me...


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## Israel

welderguy said:


> David didn't know what God's purpose was in his sin with Bathsheba. God allowed it to happen. Whether God did this by removing David's restraint, or if this weakness was already in place(because of Adam), I cannot say for sure.
> But, I can certainly relate to what David said here:
> 
> 2 Sam.12:22
> 22And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
> 
> We don't petition God as to twist His arm, but to beg His grace, and He always provides it in every situation. This I know.



We all take away what we must.
Another King once prayed that he might not die according to the prophet's word.
In the 15 intervening years granted him by his petitioning against the prophet's word was born of him one who would come to be known as the very worst of Kings over the people.


What do we take away?

(another King prayed, "nevertheless, not my, but thy will be done".)


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## Israel

1eyefishing said:


> welderguy said:
> 
> 
> 
> A fellow member on another thread made the comment that there's no use praying because God already has His plan in place and that plan is unchangeable.[WA/QUOTE]
> 
> Sounds like predestination to me...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> People like to muse over concepts like "parallel universes", never seeing.
> 
> There are things in the world that are not "of it".
> Agents.
Click to expand...


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## Artfuldodger

1eyefishing said:


> Sounds like predestination to me...



Can one pray for God's will to not be done?


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## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> Yes, I have been moved many times to thank Him for that knowledge.
> But by the same token, there have been times when I know I should thank Him and I simply do not(I quench the Spirit).
> 
> Reading further down in James 4, I see this:
> 
> 17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
> 
> 
> And I know that God never moves me to sin. I do that on my own, of my own lust.
> 
> 
> Hummer, I get a feeling I may have missed your point.



Have you not declared your freedom from God.


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."Genesis 50:20
> 
> Precept - But as for you, ye thought evil against me
> Decree - but God meant it unto good
> 
> God's purpose(decree) includes the evil thought.




The evil thought itself is NOT God's purpose. But what follows from it.... God fellowships with man in both the servant and the served, in the union of faith and in the cure that is wrath. 

That is what follows  from this case of evil is "meant" unto good that Joseph will forgive and nourish his brothers and even us today.

Is this not the way of God's ministry to those walled in by His wrath that they might return like prodigal sons to Him?

This is God's witness to as sinner as to His will in us:  John 13:14   If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another 's feet. 

God's wrath hardens and makes bitter so that His grace may be the light of His way. This in no shape or form makes God an agent of evil.


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> God's purpose includes the choice they made.
> 
> God does not have to force, that which he completely controls. He controls the resistance. Force is not required.



God's purpose does not include the choice they made. God's purpose is in effect for the choice they made, that choice being in the Spirit and the fellowship or in the wrath to follow. So God's purpose is the effect, the course, in the life, following from or for the choice or route taken.


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## hobbs27

Prayer makes a difference.


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## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Have you not declared your freedom from God.



I have, only in the way that He has already declared it to me first; when He declared He is not the author of sin and He tempteth no man with evil.

I fully understand the point you are demonstrating, that God is sovereign over all. I agree. 

But, herein also is my point:
If God is not the author of my sin, that only leaves me to blame.(and to forgive)

The two must go hand in hand.
That is why we pray. To honour His sovereignty, to ask His forgiveness, and petition His help.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Prayer makes a difference.



Yes, but in what? specifically?


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> God's purpose does not include the choice they made. God's purpose is in effect for the choice they made, that choice being in the Spirit and the fellowship or in the wrath to follow. So God's purpose is the effect, the course, in the life, following from or for the choice or route taken.



Romans 11:31-32
31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.

Is there any way to tie this into our disobedience? Without disobedience, we wouldn't need salvation.

Romans 9:17
For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."

Verse 9 is saying God based his purpose for Pharoah on?

I'm wondering if Pharoah or Judas could have prayed and changed their own predetermined destiny.


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## gordon 2

welderguy said:


> Yes, but in what? specifically?





( Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.)

In my experience people seem to receive what they need, if not always what they seem to think they need. And these people include tea toddling saints right up to the those acting out of anger and other nasty motivations in the grip of wrath.

And too be honest, my experience is that people end up in the end, regardless of what is received, with emotional "healing", and therefore  some sort of joy.


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## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> I have, only in the way that He has already declared it to me first; when He declared He is not the author of sin and He tempteth no man with evil.


If His glory is revealed, do you call it evil?




> I fully understand the point you are demonstrating, that God is sovereign over all. I agree.


Your first sentence seems to show reservations.




> But, herein also is my point:
> If God is not the author of my sin, that only leaves me to blame.(and to forgive)


Foregoing the semantics of blame vs. responsibility; (Romans 9:18-20) "...who are you, O man, to answer back to God? ...", also look at Numbers 22:34, among others.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 11:31-32
> 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.
> 
> Is there any way to tie this into our disobedience? Without disobedience, we wouldn't need salvation.
> 
> Romans 9:17
> For Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."
> 
> Verse 9 is saying God based his purpose for Pharoah on?
> 
> I'm wondering if Pharoah or Judas could have prayed and changed their own predetermined destiny.



 The world is captivated by wrath to the point were all human beings are to some degree vessels of wrath, some more some less. So we are raised by grace both by faith and by wrath. ( By wrath as in someone reaching rock bottom and in a simple prayer asking for help and for this receiving relief.) And so we can become bitter and hardened to various degrees. So it is conceivable that the Pharoah ( the nation also) was so hardened as to forgo any outlook other than  what we might call the "dark side". But who knows? Maybe the plagues  He and his people suffered counseled a remnant... which is not unusual.

Life everlasting is God's commandment. ( John 12:50) When is a man so far gone, knowing this commandment and disregarding it and not knowing this commandment, that even his house shall  not hope for him?


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> I have, only in the way that He has already declared it to me first; when He declared He is not the author of sin


Show this declaration.


welderguy said:


> and He tempteth no man with evil.


James 1:13 does not address the topic at all.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Show this declaration.
> 
> James 1:13 does not address the topic at all.



Habakkuk 1 illustrates my point.
Verse 6 says God raised up the Chaldeans.It was for His judgement.(vs.12)
Then look at vs. 13:

13Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil,and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously,and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

It's the same thing basically that happened in Joseph's case. The wickedness of men was in them already. God allowed their wickedness to work His judgement, but the wickedness was not God's.
Later in the book, God turns His judgement back upon the Chaldeans for their wickedness.


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## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> Habakkuk 1 illustrates my point.
> Verse 6 says God raised up the Chaldeans.It was for His judgement.(vs.12)
> Then look at vs. 13:
> 
> 13Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil,and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously,and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
> 
> It's the same thing basically that happened in Joseph's case. The wickedness of men was in them already. God allowed their wickedness to work His judgement, but the wickedness was not God's.
> Later in the book, God turns His judgement back upon the Chaldeans for their wickedness.



Habakkuk illustrates no point that I have seen you make in this thread.

I would suggest another read of the book.  You are arguing as Habakkuk argued before he was taught by God.  He started egocentric and became theocentric after his enlightenment.


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## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Habakkuk illustrates no point that I have seen you make in this thread.
> 
> I would suggest another read of the book.  You are arguing as Habakkuk argued before he was taught by God.  He started egocentric and became theocentric after his enlightenment.



Egocentric or not, Habakkuk was speaking truth. Same as Isaiah did.

Isaiah 59:2
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

The Father even hid His face from His own Son on the cross because He was made to be sin for us.


But, aside from those rabbit trails, can you answer the question in the OP about prayer?
" What's the use praying if God's plan is unchangeable?"
That's what I originally wanted to know before we got stuck on the "unchangeable" part of it.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Yes, but in what? specifically?



Our faith is strengthened when we ask,  and we are answered.  Not every prayer is answered in the way we desire,  but if we keep our ears and eyes open to the spirit,  the Spirit of God will respond and that in itself is satisfying to the soul.  That in itself strengthens our faith.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Habakkuk 1 illustrates my point.


I did not ask for an illustration.



welderguy said:


> It's the same thing basically that happened in Joseph's case. The wickedness of men was in them already.


Who assures that this is always the case?


welderguy said:


> God allowed their wickedness to work His judgement, but the wickedness was not God's.


"Allowed" and "caused" have essentially the same meaning.

But one of us is dancing.


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## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> a fellow member on another thread made the comment that there's no use praying because god already has his plan in place and that plan is unchangeable. I don't quite see it this way, but i'm interested in what you fellas have to say about the matter.


↓↓↓            ↓↓↓            ↓↓↓            ↓↓↓            ↓↓↓            ↓↓↓


hummerpoo said:


> i have heard it said that "prayer doesn't change god; prayer changes god's people."
> 
> that holds true only if one allows the immutables to be just that in considering the statement.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> "What's the use praying if God's plan is unchangeable?"
> That's what I originally wanted to know before we got stuck on the "unchangeable" part of it.


The question is presented as an unbeliever would construct it. Ignoring that, every Christian knows the answer.

Obedience.


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## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> Egocentric or not, Habakkuk was speaking truth.



I guess I'll stay with God's view, just like Habakkuk did.


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## red neck richie

gordon 2 said:


> ( Until now you have asked nothing in my name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.)
> 
> In my experience people seem to receive what they need, if not always what they seem to think they need. And these people include tea toddling saints right up to the those acting out of anger and other nasty motivations in the grip of wrath.
> 
> And too be honest, my experience is that people end up in the end, regardless of what is received, with emotional "healing", and therefore  some sort of joy.



Spot on G2 in my experience as well.


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## Artfuldodger

God said to Moses;
“They are a stiff-necked people.  Now leave me alone so 
that my anger may burn against them and that I may 
destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”  
(Exodus 32:9-10)

Moses said to God;
“O Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’?  Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.  Remember your servants 
Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’”  
(Exodus 32:11-13) 

“The Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.”  
(Exodus 32:14) 

This is interesting in that it appears Moses changed God's mind. Reading beyond it we do realize that if God had destroyed the Jews, we wouldn't have Jesus. It would have changed the whole course of events. It would have changed God's plan. The Word was with God from the beginning. Jesus had to be born of Mary. God had a covenant he had to keep.


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## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> God said to Moses;
> “They are a stiff-necked people.  Now leave me alone so
> that my anger may burn against them and that I may
> destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
> (Exodus 32:9-10)
> 
> Moses said to God;
> “O Lord,” he said, “why should your anger burn against your people, whom you brought out of Egypt with great power and a mighty hand? Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains and to wipe them off the face of the earth’?  Turn from your fierce anger; relent and do not bring disaster on your people.  Remember your servants
> Abraham, Isaac and Israel, to whom you swore by your own self: ‘I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and I will give your descendants all this land I promised them, and it will be their inheritance forever.’”
> (Exodus 32:11-13)
> 
> “The Lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.”
> (Exodus 32:14)
> 
> This is interesting in that it appears Moses changed God's mind. Reading beyond it we do realize that if God had destroyed the Jews, we wouldn't have Jesus. It would have changed the whole course of events. It would have changed God's plan. The Word was with God from the beginning. Jesus had to be born of Mary. God had a covenant he had to keep.



Intercourse with the God we know will always take us past what we know of the God we know.


Call unto me, and I will answer thee, and shew thee great and mighty things, which thou knowest not.

"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel.

For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.


For the Father loves the Son...


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> The question is presented as an unbeliever would construct it. Ignoring that, every Christian knows the answer.
> 
> Obedience.



Can a man with faith obtain wisdom by asking, as James seems to be indicating?


James 1:5-8

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


Can a sick man be healed through prayer, as James again seems to be indicating?

James 5:14-16
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Can a man with faith obtain wisdom by asking, as James seems to be indicating?
> 
> Can a sick man be healed through prayer, as James again seems to be indicating?



Your questions imply that God is not to be trusted.


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## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Your questions imply that God is not to be trusted.



No, that's where the faith comes in.

Please, instead of picking apart every question I ask, just answer it plainly, where someone with a welder's education can understand exactly what you're saying.

I love you and Hummer and Israel. And I value each in spiritual wisdom very much, but I wish your method of departing that wisdom were a little plainer for us plain folks.


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## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> Can a sick man be healed through prayer, as James again seems to be indicating?
> 
> James 5:14-16
> 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
> 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
> 16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.



If a man can can save the sick, why can't a man save the SICK? What I'm asking is, how much help or intervention from man does God need or use? If one can pray and save a sick man, why can't I pray to SAVE a  really SICK man?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> If a man can can save the sick, why can't a man save the SICK? What I'm asking is, how much help or intervention from man does God need or use? If one can pray and save a sick man, why can't I pray to SAVE a  really SICK man?



Man saves no one. God does.


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## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> No, that's where the faith comes in.
> 
> Please, instead of picking apart every question I ask, just answer it plainly, where someone with a welder's education can understand exactly what you're saying.
> 
> I love you and Hummer and Israel. And I value each in spiritual wisdom very much, but I wish your method of departing that wisdom were a little plainer for us plain folks.


Fair enough.


welderguy said:


> Can a man with faith obtain wisdom by asking, as James seems to be indicating?


Yes


welderguy said:


> Can a sick man be healed through prayer, as James again seems to be indicating?


Yes


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> If a man can can save the sick, why can't a man save the SICK? What I'm asking is, how much help or intervention from man does God need or use? If one can pray and save a sick man, why can't I pray to SAVE a  really SICK man?



That's a subject all to itself. And I find it is a good question because what's I'm understanding is that why do some people get healed from illness and others don't? Why do some super duper God fearing people don't get healed while  super duper faithless folk do get healed and even after they get healed they continue is disbelief!???


God is mysteriously and beautiful in his ways... He says to his chosen... You my sweet friends are going to suffer like I have, and you my worldly child I am going to make you a sign to the world and take your suffering away! 

So Art what is the difference between sick and SICK?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> So Art what is the difference between sick and SICK?



One is praying for God to change his mind and heal a sick person. The other is to pray for God to change his mind and give a SICK person salvation. (SICK being eternal death or total depravity)
Can and/or does our intervention through prayer change God's will? Did the prayer from Moses change God's mind and keep him from destroying the Jews?

If we can pray for God to heal a sick person, then we should be able to pray for God to heal a SICK person.

Thereby man's intervention can lead God to change the destiny God has given us to a new destiny caused by man's intervention. Through prayer, we can ask God to change his mind. The sick and the SICK can receive salvation through man's intervention. We do, in a sense, become a part of the destiny of others by prayer.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> One is praying for God to change his mind and heal a sick person. The other is to pray for God to change his mind and give a SICK person salvation. (SICK being eternal death or total depravity)
> Can and/or does our intervention through prayer change God's will? Did the prayer from Moses change God's mind and keep him from destroying the Jews?
> 
> If we can pray for God to heal a sick person, then we should be able to pray for God to heal a SICK person.
> 
> Thereby man's intervention can lead God to change the destiny God has given us to a new destiny caused by man's intervention. Through prayer, we can ask God to change his mind. The sick and the SICK can receive salvation through man's intervention. We do, in a sense, become a part of the destiny of others by prayer.



"I searched for a man among them who would build up the wall and stand in the gap before Me for the land, so that I would not destroy it; but I found no one.

"I looked, and there was no one to help, And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold; So My own arm brought salvation to Me, And My wrath upheld Me.

"It will also come to pass that before they call, I will answer; and while they are still speaking, I will hear.



For the Father loves the Son...


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Through prayer, we can ask God to change his mind.


Can we ask him to change it for the better or for the worse?

We would be asking no God at all, but it would expose our idolatry.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> ...Thereby man's intervention can lead God to change the destiny God has given us to a new destiny caused by man's intervention. Through prayer, we can ask God to change his mind. ...



By attempting to intervene in this way one shows that he believes his desired result is superior to God's result.  Right?

>>Sorry Gem, didn't realize I was repeating your point — it was well past my bedtime.<<


----------



## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> By attempting to intervene in this way one shows that he believes his desired result is superior to God's result.  Right?



^^This is the case when a person asks amiss,to consume upon his own lusts. He would be asking for results that are not according to God's revealed will. God's revealed will(His written word) is all we have to go on, because we don't know the whole mind of God.
But I believe there are times when we have not, because we have asked not. (His revealed will tells us this also). We could have received the blessing, if we would have only asked. But God witheld it, even though it was His will to give it, because of our refusal to ask.

Also, sometimes I think God tests our faith by delaying. We knock once, and then give up. If we had kept knocking, He would have had pity and rose up and given us as many loaves as we needed.


----------



## hummerpoo

welderguy said:


> ^^This is the case when a person asks amiss,to consume upon his own lusts. He would be asking for results that are not according to God's revealed will. God's revealed will(His written word) is all we have to go on, because we don't know the whole mind of God.
> But I believe there are times when we have not, because we have asked not. (His revealed will tells us this also). We could have received the blessing, if we would have only asked. But God witheld it, even though it was His will to give it, because of our refusal to ask.
> 
> Also, sometimes I think God tests our faith by delaying. We knock once, and then give up. If we had kept knocking, He would have had pity and rose up and given us as many loaves as we needed.



Once again, your scenario assumes a man, independent of God, who defeats God.

If you were to say that God has established a contingency, you would then need to establish that ambivalence is a attribute of God.

>>Although I hesitate to introduce another scent to the trail, it is important to recognize that His revealed word is not all that He has to go on — there is much that we cannot understand.<<


----------



## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Once again, your scenario assumes a man, independent of God, who defeats God.
> 
> If you were to say that God has established a contingency, you would then need to establish that ambivalence is a attribute of God.
> 
> >>Although I hesitate to introduce another scent to the trail, it is important to recognize that His revealed word is not all that He has to go on — there is much that we cannot understand.<<



First of all, "my" scenario is not mine. It's from the scriptures.

Another thing. I didn't say God's revealed word is all HE has to go on. It is all WE have to go on. I then said,we don't know the whole mind of God.

One more thing, God establishes His own contingencies and His own attributes. They are both in perfect harmony. If you can't reconcile the two in your mind, then in your mind your God is too small.IMO


----------



## hobbs27

Predestination prevents God from God having free will.  His decisions were made long ago,  Now He cannot change. Predestination has imprisoned Him.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> One more thing, God establishes His own contingencies and His own attributes. They are both in perfect harmony.


Please clarify. Are there unknowns to God?


----------



## hummerpoo

Which god is smaller: the one who providentially governs my will, or the god whose will I ignore.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Predestination prevents God from God having free will.  His decisions were made long ago,  Now He cannot change. Predestination has imprisoned Him.



Wouldn't all of those omni things do the same thing?


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Which god is smaller: the one who providentially governs my will, or the god whose will I ignore.


The god who changes for the worse.

God is perfect in every way. Any change can only be for the worse.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> ^^This is the case when a person asks amiss,to consume upon his own lusts. He would be asking for results that are not according to God's revealed will. God's revealed will(His written word) is all we have to go on, because we don't know the whole mind of God.
> But I believe there are times when we have not, because we have asked not. (His revealed will tells us this also). We could have received the blessing, if we would have only asked. But God witheld it, even though it was His will to give it, because of our refusal to ask.
> 
> Also, sometimes I think God tests our faith by delaying. We knock once, and then give up. If we had kept knocking, He would have had pity and rose up and given us as many loaves as we needed.



Then by the power of prayer a lost person who isn't one of the Elect can change God's mind and God will elect him. He could ask the Holy Spirit to come upon him. He'd have to be partially depraved to do this of course. 

I guess the way out is prayer only works for Christians. Only Christians can get God to change his will.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> The god who changes for the worse.
> 
> God is perfect in every way. Any change can only be for the worse.



Exactly!

The assumption of an imperfect God (a sort of Super Man)necessitates change which leads to this reasoning:



hobbs27 said:


> Predestination prevents God from God having free will.  His decisions were made long ago,  Now He cannot change. Predestination has imprisoned Him.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't all of those omni things do the same thing?



I don't think so.  I see predestination boxing God into a corner,  making Him distant. I don't see a viable relationship possible under predestination.  And apparently some think if God made the decision to give man free-will then according to them God made the wrong decision.  Amazing.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think so.  I see predestination boxing God into a corner,  making Him distant. I don't see a viable relationship possible under predestination.  And apparently some think if God made the decision to give man free-will then according to them God made the wrong decision.  Amazing.



If I recall, don't you believe God predestined until 70AD when all was finished? Meaning that he didn't leave his master plan up to chance. The Word was with God before creation. I'm not sure after 70AD but everything before had to be predestined.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> If I recall, don't you believe God predestined until 70AD when all was finished? Meaning that he didn't leave his master plan up to chance. The Word was with God before creation. I'm not sure after 70AD but everything before had to be predestined.



No,  not until,  but just for that special moment in time He predestined a Bride. 

I hate using the word predestination in the above statements. It's really Calvinism in which I'm against but the predestination folks are offended by that term.


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> Predestination prevents God from God having free will.  His decisions were made long ago,  Now He cannot change. Predestination has imprisoned Him.



Predestination is a declaration by God to bring His people to a pre-determined state.It's the expected end spoken of in Jeremiah 29.
He brings us to this end by sanctification.(discipline of various sorts)
Some of us are slow learners, but He is longsuffering. For this I am sooo thankful.


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Please clarify. Are there unknowns to God?



No.


----------



## welderguy

hummerpoo said:


> Which god is smaller: the one who providentially governs my will, or the god whose will I ignore.



Neither.
The same God brings my rebellion to His will into submission by His loving chastisement and by His conforming me to His will.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> No.


Help me understand. How are you using the word "contingencies"?


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Help me understand. How are you using the word "contingencies"?



In the context of what I was replying to Hummer, I was referring to the many "if, thens" in scripture.( I was in a hurry.should have clarified better)

We read many examples in scripture where it says "if you do such and such...then I will do thus and thus".
These are telling us God has set us at liberty to do these things.If we obey, there's blessing.
If we do not obey, there are consequences. 

I called them contingencies, but they are not really contingencies to God as we see them because God knows everything. I see why I had you confused now.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> No,  not until,  but just for that special moment in time He predestined a Bride.
> 
> I hate using the word predestination in the above statements. It's really Calvinism in which I'm against but the predestination folks are offended by that term.



Was Jesus dying on the Cross predestined? Was Saul becoming Paul fate, destiny, chance, happenstance?
Did God appoint Pharoah to certain purpose?


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> We read many examples in scripture where it says "if you do such and such...then I will do thus and thus".
> These are telling us God has set us at liberty to do these things.If we obey, there's blessing.
> If we do not obey, there are consequences.


We are discussing divine sovereignty and human freedom. The many examples do not address the topic at all. They do not tell us the metaphysical cause behind the doing such and such.

The fallacy of irrelevance is probably the most frequent of fallacies committed by will worshippers. Be on guard for it and learn to recognize it.


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> We are discussing divine sovereignty and human freedom. The many examples do not address the topic at all. They do not tell us the metaphysical cause behind the doing such and such.
> 
> The fallacy of irrelevance is probably the most frequent of fallacies committed by will worshippers. Be on guard for it and learn to recognize it.



I am not a will worshipper as you perceive.  God uses direct and indirect means of conforming my will to His will.This in no way is a diminishing of His sovereignty.
 It is a life long process, very much akin to a shepherd gently leading his sheep and caring for their every need.He often must go and find me, when I have strayed.

side note:
In the old days, when a sheep continually went astray, the shepherd would purposely break the legs of the sheep. This would teach the sheep to be totally dependent upon his master. David understood this concept firsthand as shown in Psalm 51:8.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> I am not a will worshipper as you perceive.


Great! Then rejecting the notion of "....but, I don't think we always do His will(at least I know I don't), especially when I quench His Spirit." will be easy for you.


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Great! Then rejecting the notion of "....but, I don't think we always do His will(at least I know I don't), especially when I quench His Spirit." will be easy for you.



If I were to reject that statement, I would have to change it to this:

" I always do God's will, because I never quench His Spirit."


Gem, what would you say if I stated it like this?

"Although I don't always do God's revealed will, I ALWAYS do His decreed will.


I believe Jesus, as a man knowing the Father's revealed will, was petitioning a change in the decreed will(which He showed was impossible), when He said this:

"Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me.Nevertheless, Thy will be done."

The difference between me and Jesus is He always did the whole will of His Father(revealed will and decreed will).

I'm not quite there yet, but He's bringing me to that place. That's why I need prayer.


Hope this clears any confusion as to where I stand on this.


----------



## Israel

Come, I pray you, and we reason, saith Jehovah, If your sins are as scarlet, as snow they shall be white, If they are red as crimson, as wool they shall be!


----------



## hummerpoo

God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM." And he said, "Say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you.'" 

Man's mostly clumsy attempt expressed as the Doctrine of Simplicity.


----------



## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Hope this clears any confusion as to where I stand on this.



So are you a conditional freewiller or a partial freewiller?


----------



## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> So are you a conditional freewiller or a partial freewiller?


I don't know what label men would put on me, honestly.As far as I'm concerned, I'm neither, because I don't believe man has anything to do with obtaining eternal salvation.Man does all the sinning, and God does all the saving.When you start mixing the two together, you've got problems.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Gem, what would you say if I stated it like this?
> 
> "Although I don't always do God's revealed will, I ALWAYS do His decreed will.


I agree with the statement.(With the understanding that God has one will.)

Are you comfortable with it?


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> I agree with the statement.(With the understanding that God has one will.)
> 
> Are you comfortable with it?



Yes. His will is in perfect unison, never contradictory. We, as humans only see it in part(we see through a glass darkly), until it is brought to pass through providence. 
But God sees the end from the beginning.

Now, having said all of that, what do you make of this in 1 John 2:15-17?

" 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17And the world passeth away,and the lusts thereof:but he that doeth the will of God abideth forever."

Correct me if I'm mistaken but haven't you been maintaining that everyone does the will of God since everything is predetermined?

Is this verse referring to His revealed will in His word and by His Spirit, perhaps?


----------



## Israel

But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.


----------



## welderguy

Israel said:


> But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. “And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.



Thankyou brother.
This made me go back and amend my last post.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> Now, having said all of that, what do you make of this in 1 John 2:15-17?


See post 9 and 74.

Then look at these verses and see if they are relevant to our topic. Do they have interest in what we are discussing? 

"And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel." (Judges 14:1-4)


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> See post 9 and 74.
> 
> Then look at these verses and see if they are relevant to our topic. Do they have interest in what we are discussing?
> 
> "And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife. Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well. But his father and his mother knew not that it was of the LORD, that he sought an occasion against the Philistines: for at that time the Philistines had dominion over Israel." (Judges 14:1-4)



In order to clarify to me what you are conveying, would you mind if I asked you to describe ,in exact detail, what you mean, in post 74,by "metaphysical cause"(specifically the "cause").

I need to know if you are saying that God directly causes a person to sin.This has been my main issue with your view, although, maybe I'm inferring something that you are not actually saying.
 You said He does not force, but rather controls the resistance. I agree with this statement. I also know He hardens hearts and He softens hearts. He permits men to act in their own depravity, but I do not believe He directly causes men to sin as if they are puppets on strings.
Maybe you are not saying that. Please clarify.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> In order to clarify to me what you are conveying, would you mind if I asked you to describe ,in exact detail, what you mean, in post 74,by "metaphysical cause"(specifically the "cause").
> 
> I need to know if you are saying that God directly causes a person to sin.This has been my main issue with your view, although, maybe I'm inferring something that you are not actually saying.
> You said He does not force, but rather controls the resistance. I agree with this statement. I also know He hardens hearts and He softens hearts. He permits men to act in their own depravity, but I do not believe He directly causes men to sin as if they are puppets on strings.
> Maybe you are not saying that. Please clarify.



How do you look upon how the Potter molded things to make the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus come about the way it did? Especially concerning Judas and the Jews in general? 
Would you say God let Pharoah, Moses, Abraham, David, Mary, Jesus, Judas, the apostles, Israel and Paul come about randomly to allow his plan to come about?

Did he write the book of life before it happened or write the book as it happened?


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> How do you look upon how the Potter molded things to make the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus come about the way it did? Especially concerning Judas and the Jews in general?
> Would you say God let Pharoah, Moses, Abraham, David, Mary, Jesus, Judas, the apostles, Israel and Paul come about randomly to allow his plan to come about?
> 
> Did he write the book of life before it happened or write the book as it happened?



I believe the mind of God is sooo far infinitely complex above our finite minds, that He can bring all His purposes to pass simply by hardening and softening hearts. There is an innumerable number of ways He is able to do this(from a coat of many colors to a whale or even One claiming to be the Son of God). In doing so, man's depravity is either allowed to glorify Him or it is kept in check.(This is an easy thing for Him)
This verse shows what I'm saying:

Proverbs 21:1-2
1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.

Here's another:

Proverbs 5:21-23
21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings.
22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.


Psalm 33:11-15
11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
13 The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.


----------



## Artfuldodger

welderguy said:


> I believe the mind of God is sooo far infinitely complex above our finite minds, that He can bring all His purposes to pass simply by hardening and softening hearts. There is an innumerable number of ways He is able to do this(from a coat of many colors to a whale or even One claiming to be the Son of God). In doing so, man's depravity is either allowed to glorify Him or it is kept in check.(This is an easy thing for Him)
> This verse shows what I'm saying:
> 
> Proverbs 21:1-2
> 1 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
> 2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the Lord pondereth the hearts.
> 
> Here's another:
> 
> Proverbs 5:21-23
> 21 For the ways of man are before the eyes of the Lord, and he pondereth all his goings.
> 22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.
> 23 He shall die without instruction; and in the greatness of his folly he shall go astray.
> 
> 
> Psalm 33:11-15
> 11 The counsel of the Lord standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations.
> 12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord; and the people whom he hath chosen for his own inheritance.
> 13 The Lord looketh from heaven; he beholdeth all the sons of men.
> 14 From the place of his habitation he looketh upon all the inhabitants of the earth.
> 15 He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.



I think maybe you are showing that only the Elect are predestined and the reprobates, well being born that way will always be reprobates. So maybe in your view God isn't the author of sin and evil but Elects some out of this group for salvation?

I think the other Reformed view of the Potter is he predestined Pharoah for his particular role. In this view the sovereign God predestines both the reprobate and the elect. This God chose Judas and Mary, one for good and one for evil. Well we see one as doing good and one doing evil but in a way both did what was necessary for God's plan.


----------



## M80

God has never made man to sin. Man has freewill. God has beast that already cry holy, holy, holy. He could have made us love him but we choose to love him and accept his salvation. Prayer is the same way. We choose to pray. I pray because I don't know what his will is. He know but I don't. That's why I ask. We have not cause we ask not. Abraham reasoned with God, hezikiah prayed to have his life lengthen. I pray again because I don't know what tomorrow holds. I praise him through prayer, I ask my advocate with the Father to heal sickness. When I pray I know whom I'm praying to and it builds my relationship with Jesus and gives me more faith. When I pray according to his will and he answers my prayer I give him all the glory and honor in this situation. Therefore I ask for healing because I don't know what he will do. When Paul was ready to go to a certain town his friends begged him not to go because they was afraid he would be killed. Paul said he was ready for that if it took place and they said "thy will be done". When I pray for healing and the healing dosnt come I realize that maybe it isn't the Lords will for this person to be healed and I cry "thy will be done". He always m led what is best. 
  Jesus prayed to his Father all night before he selected his disciples. Jesus already knew who he was going to select yet he taught us to pray for Gods guidance and for us to listen to his guiding spirit. I praise the Lord for his spirit that is sealed within me. When I can't get the words out the spirit speaks for me. Glory hallelujah


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> God has never made man to sin. Man has freewill.



Wrong on both counts.

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."


----------



## hobbs27

I don't see how it's possible for God to make man sin. Sin is disobedience to God,  if man is doing something under the direction or force of God then it is obedience regardless of what it is.


----------



## welderguy

gemcgrew said:


> Wrong on both counts.
> 
> "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."



They were "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" to bring the counsels of the Lord to pass.

I'm reminded of what it was said of Job:
"...nor charged God foolishly."

Be careful what you charge God with.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Wrong on both counts.
> 
> "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."



Wrong God knew they would sin. He never made them sin. Still freewill but I know you want have it but to say God made someone sin is to say God made his only begotten Son die. He choose to die for me just as we choose to except the lord or reject him.


----------



## gemcgrew

welderguy said:


> They were "hardened by the deceitfulness of sin" to bring the counsels of the Lord to pass.
> 
> I'm reminded of what it was said of Job:
> "...nor charged God foolishly."
> 
> Be careful what you charge God with.


I'm reminded of the fallacy of irrelevance. I am also careful not to place tradition above my reverence of God.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I don't see how it's possible for God to make man sin. Sin is disobedience to God,  if man is doing something under the direction or force of God then it is obedience regardless of what it is.



What you "don't see" was anticipated by Paul, and clearly explained in Romans 9, and has been pointed out many, many times on this forum.


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## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> What you "don't see" was anticipated by Paul, and clearly explained in Romans 9, and has been pointed out many, many times on this forum.



Somewhere in Romans nine is an explanation of how sin is charged to man yet caused by God. 
 Good,  I've got a meeting about to start and should be home by 9 to find it.


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## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Somewhere in Romans nine is an explanation of how sin is charged to man yet caused by God.
> Good,  I've got a meeting about to start and should be home by 9 to find it.



You shouldn't have any problem finding it, the argument is the bulk of the chapter.


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## Artfuldodger

One could start with Esau & Jacob  but move ahead to Pharoah;

Romans 9:17
17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still blame us? For who can resist His will?”

In verse 20 we see a reoccurring theme of God being in control of his plan;

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"

We see this again in Romans 11:33-36;

33Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?” 35“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.


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## hobbs27

Just starting,  but Esau and Jacob in Roman's is leaning off that which is written in Malachi 1.
 This Esau and Jacob are not individuals but are Israel and Edomites. God had destroyed and hated Edom,  but loved Israel.


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## hobbs27

Pharaoh was allowed to have power over the Israelites that God may show the world who He is by smiting Pharaoh with pestilence....  I see it as allowing your opponent to appear strong,  so when you take them down everyone would know who the Greatest is.


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## hobbs27

Sorry,  maybe I'm slow,  but I've gone through the entire chapter and I don't see anywhere that God makes someone sin.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Just starting,  but Esau and Jacob in Roman's is leaning off that which is written in Malachi 1.
> This Esau and Jacob are not individuals but are Israel and Edomites. God had destroyed and hated Edom,  but loved Israel.



Before Israel and the Edomites were even born or had done anything good or bad, not by works but by him who calls.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Pharaoh was allowed to have power over the Israelites that God may show the world who He is by smiting Pharaoh with pestilence....  I see it as allowing your opponent to appear strong,  so when you take them down everyone would know who the Greatest is.



God says of Pharoah, Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, followed by; Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

Why follow with God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy if God had not raised Pharoah up for this purpose?
Why did Paul add that after statement?

Paul also added; So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Before Israel and the Edomites were even born or had done anything good or bad, not by works but by him who calls.



Malachi 1 2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,

3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.

4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry,  maybe I'm slow,  but I've gone through the entire chapter and I don't see anywhere that God makes someone sin.



After the passage of God loving Israel more than the Edomites, even before they were born, and the passage of God raising up Pharoah for his purpose, we read that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. 

Why would Paul follow all of that with this?

19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?


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## Artfuldodger

Continue to Romans 11 when Paul writes;

27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 

Understand that after Paul said that he followed with this;

33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”

Why did Paul feel a need to follow with that?


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## Artfuldodger

The only thing I can figure is Paul must have knew folks would be questioning God's wisdom and judgment. People would be questioning his ways.
Concerning Election why would God fault every man in the whole wide world? Even those who never heard? Is that fair? Why would God have someone grow up blinded by a false gospel knowing full well they probably will die in the same religion of their parents. Is that fair? Do you really think many of them will convert to Christianity? What free will is in that? What free will does one born in a foreign land have that has never heard?
Regardless of free will or not many of the dead never heard. 
Where was their salvation? This was Paul's answer;

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.…


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Malachi 1 2 I have loved you, saith the Lord. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the Lord: yet I loved Jacob,
> 
> 3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
> 
> 4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the Lord of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the Lord hath indignation for ever



I see that but it was still before they were born. Before they did anything good or bad. God still "chose" and not based on works.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> After the passage of God loving Israel more than the Edomites, even before they were born, and the passage of God raising up Pharoah for his purpose, we read that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.
> 
> Why would Paul follow all of that with this?
> 
> 19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?



 The entire chapter is about God molding the Jew and Gentile together as the remnant. He is saving some out of Israel,  and destroying some out of Israel,  He's even bringing in some Gentiles. He will have mercy on who He will have mercy,  it doesn't matter if they are of Abraham or not. 

 Isn't that what you read into it?


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## hobbs27

Roman's 11.. When the Gentiles started receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving the blessings of God,  they felt as if they had become better than the Jew...  Paul is explaining they aren't,  and He's still hopeful that more Jew's would turn to the faith....it was the job of these Gentile believers to make these non believing Israelites jealous.. 
The time of the end was near.

There's a lot more in Roman's 11 though.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The entire chapter is about God molding the Jew and Gentile together as the remnant. He is saving some out of Israel,  and destroying some out of Israel,  He's even bringing in some Gentiles. He will have mercy on who He will have mercy,  it doesn't matter if they are of Abraham or not.
> 
> Isn't that what you read into it?



I might could read it that way if Paul didn't continue to remind me of God having mercy on whom he will have mercy.
If he hadn't mentioned choosing Jacob not based on works. If he had not mentioned Pharoah.  

Mainly though if Paul had not said;

19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use? 

If it is as you say, why did Paul add this part?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Roman's 11.. When the Gentiles started receiving the Holy Spirit and receiving the blessings of God,  they felt as if they had become better than the Jew...  Paul is explaining they aren't,  and He's still hopeful that more Jew's would turn to the faith....it was the job of these Gentile believers to make these non believing Israelites jealous..
> The time of the end was near.
> 
> There's a lot more in Roman's 11 though.



I agree that is part of the story in Romans 11. Yet Paul writes;

27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable.
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 

Paul also knew individuals would question God's judgement and added;

33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 9 screams predestination. Chapter 10, not so much. Chapter 11 again screams predestination.

Romans 11:36
For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

The Word was with God before Creation. There isn't much more to say about it. The Word was already wrote. God didn't leave anything up to chance. He didn't say, "If Israel believes Jesus is the Messiah, I'll change my plan."
"If Pharoah doesn't rebel against me, I'll elect another."
"If the Romans won't destroy Jerusalem, I'll use Turkey."
"If Mary doesn't want to be the Mother of Jesus, I'll use Sue."
"If the Jews believe in Jesus, then sorry Gentiles."
"If the Ark isn't needed after all, I'll use something else for a mirror of Jesus."
"If Saul doesn't want to become Paul, I'll use Frank."
"If Jesus changes his mind and doesn't want to die on a cross, he won't be my only begotten son."


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9 screams predestination. Chapter 10, not so much. Chapter 11 again screams predestination.
> 
> Romans 11:36
> For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.




 The remnant was predestined,  I've never denied that...but I still don't see anything in these chapters that says God made man sin.  It's actually an impossibility,  Sin is missing the mark,  or disobeying God... So if God forces you to do something wrong,  you're still hitting the mark and being obedient..  Sin cannot exist without freewill.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The remnant was predestined,  I've never denied that...but I still don't see anything in these chapters that says God made man sin.  It's actually an impossibility,  Sin is missing the mark,  or disobeying God... So if God forces you to do something wrong,  you're still hitting the mark and being obedient..  Sin cannot exist without freewill.



Does one have to hear the Gospel in order for their sins to count against them? How can someone raised up in a Hindu family be expected to hear?
So if the Jews could hear, then God left the death of his Son up to chance.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The remnant was predestined,  I've never denied that...but I still don't see anything in these chapters that says God made man sin.  It's actually an impossibility,  Sin is missing the mark,  or disobeying God... So if God forces you to do something wrong,  you're still hitting the mark and being obedient..  Sin cannot exist without freewill.



If the Remnant was chosen and the rest of Israel was hardened, how do you explain their free will in relation to sin?
Remembering that the Remnant was chosen by grace and not works?


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## M80

Foreknow, this explains it all to me. To foreknow someone is to know what decisions they will make. He didn't say for those he he made. He never made us do anything. That's why I pray.


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## Israel

"Gavisti...he says it means an argument"
"What do you say it means?"

"A desire for more cows"

"OK, come with me..."

From the movie "Arrival", over the interpretation of the Sanskrit word for "war".


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## Artfuldodger

I felt it important to show the sequence of operation in Romans 11.

God chooses a remnant and blinds the rest of Israel. The Gentiles were let in to hopefully provoke the blinded Jews to jealously. I would think at this point their blindness would prevent salvation. They could become jealous but at this point they are hardened until the full number of Gentiles comes in.
The natural branches were broken off to allow the Gentiles grafting into the Commonwealth of Israel. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery. After this hardening is lifted, then and only then can the natural branches be grafted back to the nourishing root ball.

Romans 11:26-27
 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”


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## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Just starting,  but Esau and Jacob in Roman's is leaning off that which is written in Malachi 1.
> This Esau and Jacob are not individuals but are Israel and Edomites. God had destroyed and hated Edom,  but loved Israel.



Notwithstanding that vs. 3 indicates otherwise, and vss. 6,7 reflect Paul’s position expressed in Gal. 3:28,29,  if viewed dispensationally or individually vss. 9-16 have the same meaning relative to the question at hand.



hobbs27 said:


> Pharaoh was allowed to have power over the Israelites that God may show the world who He is by smiting Pharaoh with pestilence....  I see it as allowing your opponent to appear strong,  so when you take them down everyone would know who the Greatest is.



So, is God a God of happenstance, or a God of certainty; did he gamble on Pharaoh’s appearance of strength or did He “raise him up”.



hobbs27 said:


> Sorry,  maybe I'm slow,  but I've gone through the entire chapter and I don't see anywhere that God makes someone sin.



I am sorry.


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## hobbs27

Verse 3 Paul is morning for His fellow Israelites.... He would give up his own life if it meant saving the entire Old Testament church,  and bringing them in to the new testament.  I see he has the same struggle as Abraham... Knowing the destruction of the city was coming,  hoping to save all,  but God searching only found some of faith. 

 Galatians 3:28-29 clearly shows there was no Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ,  but there was clearly Jew's and Gentiles outside at that time... The end was near.. 

Vs  13 is the verse that forces me to see the context of the story about Israel and Edom.  I understand  Jacob and Esau being brothers,  and God setting them apart from the beginning,  but Jacob He loved and Esau He hated as it is written in Malachi 1 concerning the destruction of Edom. 

With Pharaoh God indeed acted on His plan.  This does not mean that every single person and every single happening is directed single handedly by God. 
 God has created a covenant through the Son which provides Salvation to whosoever will.  We are saved by the blood shed on the cross,  not from the foundation of a physical world,  but from the foundation of this world... This age!  Christ's new creation, the new covenant.

 The Bride and the Spirit says come!  Come and take of the water of life freely given to whosoever will. Every man,  every woman,  every race and every nationality everywhere around the world has hope and has eternal life offered to them.

Also,  thanks for your concern I appreciate all prayers.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I felt it important to show the sequence of operation in Romans 11.
> 
> God chooses a remnant and blinds the rest of Israel. The Gentiles were let in to hopefully provoke the blinded Jews to jealously. I would think at this point their blindness would prevent salvation. They could become jealous but at this point they are hardened until the full number of Gentiles comes in.
> The natural branches were broken off to allow the Gentiles grafting into the Commonwealth of Israel. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery. After this hardening is lifted, then and only then can the natural branches be grafted back to the nourishing root ball.
> 
> Romans 11:26-27
> 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”




The little Baptist churches up here in north GA are a very loving bunch. I know they mean well but they see a plan of Salvation in every verse and every scripture in the bible, no matter how they force it in there. 

The context here in Roman's is not man's plan of salvation,  it's the bringing together of the two sticks,  it's the saving of a remnant before certain destruction,  it's the formation of a Bride to consummate the new covenant... These people are the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.  All Israel.. Meaning the ten northern tribes and Judah saved.


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## Artfuldodger

I've asked this before in reading certain passages, which is; are there two different salvations? Perhaps Romans 11 is a different salvation than eternal salvation. A physical salvation story of an event in 70AD. Some view that salvation as a type of parallel to another salvation, the eternal one.

Regardless, if we pick up at Romans 9 and continue through Romans 11, we see predestination. Regardless of who Jacob represents or is, Jacob was elected by grace and not works. Next Pharaoh is mentioned as an example of being "raised up" by God.
Then we finally read of God electing a Remnant and hardening the rest of Israel. 
Perhaps it is another salvation but predestination none the less.

If Pharaoh was happenstance, what about the death of Christ? Was that just foreknowledge? Considering that the Word was with God from before creation?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I've asked this before in reading certain passages, which is; are there two different salvations? Perhaps Romans 11 is a different salvation than eternal salvation. A physical salvation story of an event in 70AD. Some view that salvation as a type of parallel to another salvation, the eternal one.
> 
> Regardless, if we pick up at Romans 9 and continue through Romans 11, we see predestination. Regardless of who Jacob represents or is, Jacob was elected by grace and not works. Next Pharaoh is mentioned as an example of being "raised up" by God.
> Then we finally read of God electing a Remnant and hardening the rest of Israel.
> Perhaps it is another salvation but predestination none the less.
> 
> If Pharaoh was happenstance, what about the death of Christ? Was that just foreknowledge? Considering that the Word was with God from before creation?



There's one salvation,  it comes by grace through faith. But.... The plan was different imo.... How could the Spirit and the Bride say come... Before there was a Bride?  
 Jesus said way back then, He was coming quickly and with His reward ( eternal life IMO)  according to the works in which they had done. 
 Remember the goats and the sheep... Separated by works...

But after He came,  the water of life is freely given to whosoever will.


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## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Verse 3 Paul is morning for His fellow Israelites.... He would give up his own life if it meant saving the entire Old Testament church,  and bringing them in to the new testament.  I see he has the same struggle as Abraham... Knowing the destruction of the city was coming,  hoping to save all,  but God searching only found some of faith. .



Not relevant to the subject.



> Galatians 3:28-29 clearly shows there was no Jew nor Gentile in the body of Christ,  but there was clearly Jew's and Gentiles outside at that time... The end was near..



So God was a bigot then He relented.
Not relevant to the subject.



> Vs  13 is the verse that forces me to see the context of the story about Israel and Edom.  I understand  Jacob and Esau being brothers,  and God setting them apart from the beginning,  but Jacob He loved and Esau He hated as it is written in Malachi 1 concerning the destruction of Edom.



See previous post: "if viewed dispensationally or individually vss. 9-16 have the same meaning relative to the question at hand."



> With Pharaoh God indeed acted on His plan.  This does not mean that every single person and every single happening is directed single handedly by God.



The context shows that Paul used Pharaoh to illustrate exactly what you deny.



> God has created a covenant through the Son which provides Salvation to whosoever will.  We are saved by the blood shed on the cross,  not from the foundation of a physical world,  but from the foundation of this world... This age!  Christ's new creation, the new covenant.



Not relevant to the subject.



> The Bride and the Spirit says come!  Come and take of the water of life freely given to whosoever will. Every man,  every woman,  every race and every nationality everywhere around the world has hope and has eternal life offered to them.



And Paul illustrated whosoever will with Jacob, Esau, and Pharaoh.



> Also,  thanks for your concern I appreciate all prayers.



You’re welcome.
It’s a universal need, and coincidently, or properly not coincidently, commanded.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> There's one salvation,  it comes by grace through faith. But.... The plan was different imo.... How could the Spirit and the Bride say come... Before there was a Bride?
> Jesus said way back then, He was coming quickly and with His reward ( eternal life IMO)  according to the works in which they had done.
> Remember the goats and the sheep... Separated by works...
> 
> But after He came,  the water of life is freely given to whosoever will.



Tell me more about the goats and the sheep... Separated by works. I mentioned it recently on another thread. This would mean a time when salvation  was by works instead of grace or at least a group picked by their works instead of grace.
How does this separation for gathering the Bride work in conjunction with the election of the Remnant chosen by grace?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> The little Baptist churches up here in north GA are a very loving bunch. I know they mean well but they see a plan of Salvation in every verse and every scripture in the bible, no matter how they force it in there.
> 
> The context here in Roman's is not man's plan of salvation,  it's the bringing together of the two sticks,  it's the saving of a remnant before certain destruction,  it's the formation of a Bride to consummate the new covenant... These people are the 144,000 spoken of in Revelation.  All Israel.. Meaning the ten northern tribes and Judah saved.



I still didn't understand your response about Romans. You say it has nothing to do with salvation yet you agree a remnant was elected by grace and not works.
The Remnant was chosen and the rest of Israel was hardened until the full number of Gentiles came in. Then all Israel was saved which was the ten northern tribes and Judah. How could they be saved from destruction if you believe there was only one salvation? What was the remnant elected to become and what was all of Israel saved from?


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## Artfuldodger

Staying within the Preterist view, weren't individuals saved from the destruction of Jerusalem? Mostly the folks who had fled to the mountains. Next there were millions of folks that weren't even in the vicinity. It would appear that many people were saved(salvation) from this destruction.
I don't think that every person that was saved in this destruction was part of the Remnant.
Next as in today, when we die, we are saved(salvation) from eternal death.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Staying within the Preterist view, weren't individuals saved from the destruction of Jerusalem? Mostly the folks who had fled to the mountains. Next there were millions of folks that weren't even in the vicinity. It would appear that many people were saved(salvation) from this destruction.
> I don't think that every person that was saved in this destruction was part of the Remnant.
> Next as in today, when we die, we are saved(salvation) from eternal death.




There's different schools of thought,  depends  if you are looking at it in the CBV or the IBV. 

Im going to pm you a link to a discussion on Roman's 11... Even though the two people are all over the Bible,  I think you'll understand what the preterist is saying from the CBV... The futurist seems to be a hyper dispensationalist or a messianic Jew, I'm not sure,  bit there's tons of good stuff in it.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> There's different schools of thought,  depends  if you are looking at it in the CBV or the IBV.
> 
> Im going to pm you a link to a discussion on Roman's 11... Even though the two people are all over the Bible,  I think you'll understand what the preterist is saying from the CBV... The futurist seems to be a hyper dispensationalist or a messianic Jew, I'm not sure,  bit there's tons of good stuff in it.



Reading from Dr. Preston, their is a Israel of the flesh that promises were made to. God made a covenant with this Israel. Jesus descended and was born into this Israel.

Including my own interpretation of his beliefs the promises/prophesies to this Israel were fulfilled. This included the destruction of Israel. This to include your believes on the Remnant and the "two stick" theology.
The prophesy of the historical events of 70Ad fulfilled.

I'll have to think about that but it still appears to be God saving some of Israel of the flesh from the destruction of Jerusalem and then another salvation for us and them from Eternal death. I can't read Romans and not see both accounts of salvation. I agree that some of this was about physical Israel. Some people were physically saved from the destruction. Yet there is another salvation from eternal death. Perhaps it coincided for those in 70AD. You don't really need to tell someone to hide in the mountains if he's about to be rapture'd. They were being warned of a physical destruction. They were being saved from a physical destruction. This could be part of a promise being fulfilled. Perhaps some of the promises were for a physical Israel.
Parts of Romans also includes Gentiles being grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel. Is this physical Israel or what? If "what" then why is Romans not about salvation?

So these prophesies fulfilled and it happening the way you suggest, was it not predestination? The remnant, the hardening, the Gentiles grafted in, the physical salvation of some of Israel, the destruction of Jerusalem?

Tell me more about the sheep and the goats.


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## hobbs27

Matt 25:31-46
 We see a gathering of (all nations) for judgment.  The word for nations is used for tribes of Israel,  and I believe that's what we see here.  This will parallel with Matt.  13:37-43 and Revelation 14:14-20.
 It is a judgment to determine true Israel from the apostate rebellious fleshly Israel. The nation's were divided into two groups.  Those on the right hand received the kingdom (Matt. 25:34) Those on the left hand experienced a fiery destruction (Matt. 25:41).

 This corresponds with Matt. 21:43. .The gentiles never had the kingdom that it could be taken from them. (eph. 2:12) Nor were the gentiles ever cast out of the kingdom, for they were never in it.  (Matt. 13:41,42: Matt.  25:41).

This judgment belongs in the Jewish context of Jesus' life and ministry.  Jesus was showing how the children of the kingdom (Jews) would be cast into outer darkness and the kingdom would be possessed by another nation, the sons of God born of spiritual birth by Abraham's spiritual seed.  Galatians 3:16-29.

I hope this helps... I had to go back on some old notes,  and dig some in my book The spirit of prophecy.


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## Artfuldodger

Concerning Matt 25:31-46, I can see it as nations. After all it says the nations will be gathered before him. Is it possible many scriptures are about the physical judgment of nations and we confuse those passages with our individual salvation from eternal death?


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## hobbs27

Yes, we do.  It's a common error when your mindset is on Salvation and searching it in the scriptures.


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