# Heavy FOC / Single Bevel Broadhead



## Eroc33

I have always shot 100gr broadheads, and I was thinking about going up to 125gr. But I was on YouTube last night and discovered a video about Dr. Ashby and heavy foc arrows. 

I'm interested in this and im thinking I want to go up to around 200gr broadheads without changing my arrows. 

I currently shoot carbon express maxima hunter 350's, 28.5" and they weigh 392gr with 100 gr broadheads. I dont want mess up my arrow spine, and get to arround 20% foc if possible. 

Does anyone have experience with these heavy broadheads or know of a store that stocks them / pushes heavy foc?


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## GrantC77

Id definitely say your coming in light even with a 125 grain broadhead. If you put that much weight up front on that light of a arrow, your probably gonna have tuning issues. I recommend you move to a heavier arrow. I have same draw length as you. I’m shooting a victory RIP TKO 300 spine with a 120 grain ethics archery insert/outsert with 100 grain rage trypan. I’m coming in at almost 500 grains with 17% FOC.


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## Jim Thompson

Although I have interest in it, never had enough to make any big moves. There's a pretty good FB group that I am a member of High Momentum: Bowhunting and Archery that gets very indepth and has some great knowledge floated around.  Lots of garbage like most of FB, but good knowledge base for sure.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/359483327558781/


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## ddd-shooter

Definitely need a heavier spine if you want to go to 200. Otherwise I think you’ll be having Tuning issues. 
You’ll find one thing calls for another if you want to change setup that drastically.


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## splatek

No expert here
I’m shooting 350-300 tapered arrow with 200 tip and 150 insert. FOC between 25-30. sitting 50# recurve
Sticks perfect. haven’t knocked down any animals yet but hopefully this coming season. 
Check out ranch fairy YouTube. He works with Ashby foundation and is funny, while still being informative. 
I discovered this looking for arrow set ups for my nine year old who is only pulling 35# recurve.


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## deast1988

I went heavier this year.

You can’t add that big of a jump in tip weight with out tuning issues.

I’m pulling 29in @ 80lbs I went DaySix 250s with the 50gr outsert system. My finished arrow weighs in at 578grs, shooting either an Ironwill s125 or a Kudupoint Contour 125gr single bevel. It hammers the target harder then anything I’ve ever seen. 

RanchFairy on youtube is big heavy arrow advocate. RanchFairy is on Ashby’s board.

Ashby, believe he says 650gr arrows an up! 

In my opinion, you can’t jump the weight up with out being smart with your build. I’ve seen some short draw guys have to go 300spines to accommodate a proper tune with 150gr heads. There’s a ton of positive in going heavier. I shoot deer mainly, so didn’t see a need to go to a 600+ grain arrow. My trad bow just tuned to a 590gr arrow. 550/600gr range is a hammer on deer.


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## Eroc33

The video I saw last night was Ranch Fairy talking to the hunting public guys, he is pretty entertaining. I just watched a few of his videos and he recommended ordering a field tip sample pack and shooting them to see how they did. I think that is what I'll try, maybe 150 or 175 will work. I didn't mention it before, but im only shooting 65lbs so that should help some with the spine.

Thanks,


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## BornToHuntAndFish

Yep, lots of good tested science behind using heavier arrows & broadheads with higher FOC for shorter blood trails & better chances of pass throughs at more different shot angles.

Latest "The Hunting Public" video ("BEST Arrow Setup for Deer Hunting - Heavy vs. Light Arrows w/ RANCH FAIRY") on their Youtube channel at this last Jan. 2020 ATA Show sitting down in discussions with the Ranch Fairy from Texas who shows his testing results on his Youtube channel & has a high intellectual respiratory therapist backgound while also working with Dr. Ashby in this area. Ranch Fairy hunts whitetails, but enjoys & is more motivated hunting hogs that drove him to producing better results & lots of work for this area in recent years.  The Hunting Public team this past season moved to heavier broadhead & arrow setups that produced better results.


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## strothershwacker

I'm a strong advocate for heavy arrows. I started out with heavy xx75s back in the day. Had great results. Pass throughs on every animal I shot except for 1 that I shot qautering away that moved a lil' and I hit in the rump. The heavy arrow with the fixed blade broadhead went thru everything and buried up in the brisket! 25 yard recovery. I had a double lung pass thru on one that I had to dig my arrow out of a cedar tree on the other side! Story after story of good results. Fast forward to the early 2000s, like others I got hooked on speed with super light arrows and big expandable heads. Deer after deer running off with my arrows. No exit wounds. 100+ yard tracking jobs. Since going trad, I went back to my heavy set up. Way heavy. Like 710grains with 265 of that up front. Shoot what ye will, but as for me I'll be chuckin' the payload!


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## rugerfan

I just watched the hunting public video then watched a couple of the ranch fairy videos. Which led me to do some research about the same thought process for crossbow bolts. Interesting information. Most are saying that with super sharp broadheads and heavy bolts there is no slap when the bolt hits the deer and they are not running and dropping in sight.  Of course not all, but 80 percent or better.


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## hancock husler

I’m in the process of this very thing. Just don’t think I can bring myself to buy the Bishop archery broadheads


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## Eroc33

I did some more research / reading last night. I cant find a good spine calculator on the arrow company websites, but based on crossing over eastons spine chart. A 175 gr might work, but im not going to have enough arrow weight to push a single bevel thru bone. So if I want to go single bevel i will have to change arrows, which I might do.

I wont be purchasing any bishops either, probably going to go with grizzly sticks options.

I have thought about getting a crossbow for my back yard, id be curious how they work with heavy arrows.


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## splatek

I am not sure about bishop's broadheads... but from what I saw they are SUPER EXPENSIVE....

I recently ordered a sample of various weight field points and I am going to start experimenting to see what's what with arrow flight and performance. I have never bareshaft tuned, but I think I see that in my future, as well.


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## Raylander

Heavier inserts (brass 50 gr) can add some pop


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## Kris87

I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to super heavy arrow philosophy and high FOC. I don't think deer are really all that hard to shoot through, and they don't require something like an elk or moose would require. That said, not going to hurt a thing going super heavy, except trajectory of course. I also have not found a great benefit to super high FOC. I normally keep my whitetail stuff in the 13-15% range. 

I'm sure some folks will say you can shoot through shoulders, and that is true of the actual shoulder muscle. I still to this day have not seen an arrow bust through the actual scapula on a deer. That thing is like Fort Knox.


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## Ben1100Mag

Dr Ed Ashby reports and the Ranch Fairy on YouTube is good information. I have always liked a heavy head. I am not totally  sold on single bevel heads for deer. As Kris aid deer are not that hard to shoot thru.


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## Ihunt

I have shot high FOC arrows for years. I have never been able to prove it helps but I have also never seen a negative from it either. So, why not? There are many studies that show it helps but like Kris said, for Whitetail, it’s not really needed. I will say I’ve never had much of an issue shooting large COC heads and this is supposed to be a benefit of high FOC.

Now, concerning the shoulder bone. You should stay away from that at all cost. The Asby studies have shown that you need a 600 grain arrow for “bone busting” weight. The actual shoulder joint is a relatively small area and I for one think have no interest in building that heavy of an arrow for that very small what it scenario. In 37 years of bowhunting, I’ve hit there once. Basically just bounced off and I got a picture of her a couple of days later with just a scratch on her shoulder.

Concerning spine. To load it up you may have to drop draw weight or go to a stiffer spine. A weak spine will show itself very quickly with a fixed head. Easton Hexx are great arrows. If you go with a 260 spine you could load it up.

I use a a 330 spine with a 75 grain insert and a 150 grain head. This is out of a 55lb bow and 28” dL. Arrow weighs 464 grains. I also use feathers which is an easy way to help FOC. Last year I shot 29.75” Easton Hexx, 330 spine, 190 grain head, out of a 62 lb Vertix.


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## Eroc33

I agree some of the recommendations are overkill for whitetail, but years ago i had a arrow with an expandable not pass tru on a small deer from a high angle shot. I usually always like to be prepared, thats probably why this appealed to me so much.

 I almost ordered a 2 arrow test kit the other day, but i talked myself off the ledge ,and ended up ordering a field point test kit, and two 2nd's 200gr broadheads to test, before i jump into the deep end on this.


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## Long Cut

Every deer I’ve missed has been a touch high or low, from deer jumping the string Or misjudging yardage during a November rut chase. 

I understand and agree that high FOC will increase penetration, but for Whitetail deer I don’t think a 600+ grain arrow being shot from a compound bow is necessary. I’d opt for a 10-15% FOC with an FPS range of 270-285FPS... Keep the pin gap tight and arrow weight up front.

As far as single bevels for Whitetails... I’m going to compare some to my Grim Reapers and Slick Tricks in 2020.


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## Mr Bya Lungshot

strothershwacker said:


> I'm a strong advocate for heavy arrows. I started out with heavy xx75s back in the day. Had great results. Pass throughs on every animal I shot except for 1 that I shot qautering away that moved a lil' and I hit in the rump. The heavy arrow with the fixed blade broadhead went thru everything and buried up in the brisket! 25 yard recovery. I had a double lung pass thru on one that I had to dig my arrow out of a cedar tree on the other side! Story after story of good results. Fast forward to the early 2000s, like others I got hooked on speed with super light arrows and big expandable heads. Deer after deer running off with my arrows. No exit wounds. 100+ yard tracking jobs. Since going trad, I went back to my heavy set up. Way heavy. Like 710grains with 265 of that up front. Shoot what ye will, but as for me I'll be chuckin' the payload!


You had me at payload


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## Mr Bya Lungshot

Kris87 said:


> I guess I'm in the minority when it comes to super heavy arrow philosophy and high FOC. I don't think deer are really all that hard to shoot through, and they don't require something like an elk or moose would require. That said, not going to hurt a thing going super heavy, except trajectory of course. I also have not found a great benefit to super high FOC. I normally keep my whitetail stuff in the 13-15% range.
> 
> I'm sure some folks will say you can shoot through shoulders, and that is true of the actual shoulder muscle. I still to this day have not seen an arrow bust through the actual scapula on a deer. That thing is like Fort Knox.


You lost me at scapula

Im in the ballpark of your arrow probably. I shoot a 28 1/2 inch 55/70 goldtip and a muzzy 85 at 74 peak Always have.
This arrow flys flat. I can use one pin to fourty with a hair of mental adjustment. Target to 60. Deer move too much to be shooting rainbows.
Really I agree with all you said but the scapula.
I bust that plate regular not both.


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## Eroc33

I have always wanted a flat shooting setup also that's why I stuck with 100gr, but this video makes me think point weight doesn't matter near as much as we think it does.






If the whole arrow is a lot heavier it will obviously make more difference, but I'm going to do my own testing to see.


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## strothershwacker

Shooting light arrows and mechanical broadheads is what keeps tracking dogs in top shape?


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## Hillbilly stalker

Heavy arrow equals penetration and a quieter bow.   What's not to love ?


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## wks41

I switched from 350 to 300 spine arrows with 50 grain half outs and 100 grain expandable.  Shot 4 with my bow this year.  3 pass throughs and one hit the opposite side shoulder.  The heavier arrow and 50 grains more up front make a big change for me this year.  Didn’t have a pass through last year.  The black eagle rampage arrows come with 50 grain half outs.  Very solid arrow IMO


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## Eroc33

That sounds like a good setup without going crazy. I wish i could pull the inserts out of the arrows i have to try some heavier ones.


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## ddd-shooter

I Love heavy arrows, although I enjoy mechanicals for white tails and bears around here. Actually, I’m not sure I wouldn’t shoot anything in the lower 48 with my setup, although it might be a little light for some, which I would remedy with a 50 grain outsert that would make my point weight 175.
currently I’m at 510 grains, flying about 280 fps. Thats about 64 slugs of momentum, 89 ft lbs of k.e., and only about 10% f.o.c. But it hits like a ton of bricks, flies through shoulder blades and ribs no problem, and I always get two holes. Plus being around 280, my pins are manageable out to 80.


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## ddd-shooter

Eroc33 said:


> That sounds like a good setup without going crazy. I wish i could pull the inserts out of the arrows i have to try some heavier ones.


Brass outsert?


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## splatek

Eroc33 said:


> That sounds like a good setup without going crazy. I wish i could pull the inserts out of the arrows i have to try some heavier ones.



Best way to get the inserts out, that I have found: Take a lighter and heat up a field point for about a minute or so, then pull on the field point. The heat should loosen up the glue that is used to attached the insert. You might want to get get yourself some of that glue for yourself so that you can glue in the insert/outsert or else it'll pull out in your target on every shot.


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## Kris87

No one here is going to convince me they're shooting through a deer scapula consistently.  I've seen too many arrows hit one and bounce backwards out of a deer. 

Shoulder muscles, leg bones, ribs....Sure...the actual scapula, no.


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## Hillbilly stalker

Consistently? No....done it ?   Yes . 70ld bow, 31 inch draw, 2315 xx75’s . 100 grain muzzy 2 cam bow at less than 20 yards. Wasn’t intentional, but it happened and my gear performed.


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## Raylander

100 gr muzzy ain’t no joke


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## Kris87

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Consistently? No....done it ?   Yes . 70ld bow, 31 inch draw, 2315 xx75’s . 100 grain muzzy 2 cam bow at less than 20 yards. Wasn’t intentional, but it happened and my gear performed.



Did the deer die? What organ did you hit after you busted through the scapula?


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## Hillbilly stalker

Kris87 said:


> Did the deer die? What organ did you hit after you busted through the scapula?


Yes he died, within 50-60 yards if I remember correctly. He was the second one of 2 I shot off that feed tree that evening. I had a lot of work dragging both out by myself so there wasn’t any autopsy. Sept heat makes a fellow move fast to save the meat.


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## Hillbilly stalker

I believe the muzzy trocar tips have a lot to do with muzzy penetrating. As much as I love thunder heads, they have a point and don’t split bone as well as a muzzy. Any decent 2 blade will out preform them on penetration tho.


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## strothershwacker

The





Hillbilly stalker said:


> Yes he died, within 50-60 yards if I remember correctly. He was the second one of 2 I shot off that feed tree that evening. I had a lot of work dragging both out by myself so there wasn’t any autopsy. Sept heat makes a fellow move fast to save the meat.


There must be an artery or something up there because I've hit some way forward tween the brisket and shoulder that bled out fast.


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## Kris87

Hillbilly stalker said:


> I believe the muzzy trocar tips have a lot to do with muzzy penetrating. As much as I love thunder heads, they have a point and don’t split bone as well as a muzzy. Any decent 2 blade will out preform them on penetration tho.



Ten four. I'm going to save the scapula from the first deer I kill this year and I'm going to shoot it with a Muzzy at 10 yds. My bow produces roughly 85ft-lbs of KE. I have both 100gr and 125gr Muzzys. I'll shoot one at each since I'll have two of them. 

I'll post the videos here.


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## splatek

Kris87 said:


> Ten four. I'm going to save the scapula from the first deer I kill this year and I'm going to shoot it with a Muzzy at 10 yds. My bow produces roughly 85ft-lbs of KE. I have both 100gr and 125gr Muzzys. I'll shoot one at each since I'll have two of them.
> 
> I'll post the videos here.



Being a scientist, I love this idea and I might do the same. I shot through both scaps on a doe this year - heavy fixed blade broadhead. Went though both and into the ground. I was pretty close, ~20 yards, but only pulling 56 pounds.  When I did shoot an expandable, one time, I found one side only opened half way, the other was closed, and it deflected almost into the guts, off ribs. One of my fixed blade shots went from brisket to butt, no problem. The fixed blade went clear through everything. . I wish I had known what I was doing when I was doing it. 

And if you are going to do it, don't mess with comparing 100 to 125, step it up, compare 100 to 200 or 250. 

I think I might test single versus double bevel. This could be fun, assuming I kill anything. HAHA


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## Kris87

splatek said:


> Being a scientist, I love this idea and I might do the same. I shot through both scaps on a doe this year - heavy fixed blade broadhead. Went though both and into the ground. I was pretty close, ~20 yards, but only pulling 56 pounds.  When I did shoot an expandable, one time, I found one side only opened half way, the other was closed, and it deflected almost into the guts, off ribs. One of my fixed blade shots went from brisket to butt, no problem. The fixed blade went clear through everything. . I wish I had known what I was doing when I was doing it.
> 
> And if you are going to do it, don't mess with comparing 100 to 125, step it up, compare 100 to 200 or 250.
> 
> I think I might test single versus double bevel. This could be fun, assuming I kill anything. HAHA



You have a picture of the entry hole? I'd like to see it. The scapula is very high on the deer, and unless you were shooting from the ground, it's impossible to shoot through two of them. I think people confuse the actual shoulder muscle with the bone I'm referring to.


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## Hillbilly stalker

I shot mine from a low stand (8-10 ft.) and the deer was on the side of a hill , that's how I managed to bust both. It's pretty easy to tell the difference between bone and muscle.


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## Ben1100Mag

I shoot thru the spine of a 3.5 year old buck in  Kansas this year and cut it into.  the arrow was a 2219 Aluminum with a 170 Zwickey No mercy Head. The buck was at 8 yards but down hill of me and I hit he spine by accident. Knocked him clean off his feet and it was lights out. 

This year I an going to a Higher FOC with the same Head. These 4 blade Zwickies are cheap and durable.


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## Long Cut

I’ve been using the OT2GO arrow spine calculator that can be purchased online or for your phones through the App Store. 
Then by plugging in the information to an online ballistic arrow calculator, this determines different arrow drop.

The two screenshots are comparing the ballistics of a 28.5” 65# Elite Option 7 (7”BH 32”ATA) 

Arrow 1: is 558 grains going 244FPS
Arrow 2: 418 grains at 279FPS

Arrow ballistics below.

Summary: 100+ grains increased arrow drop by 3” at 30 yards and 6” at 30 yards.


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## Kris87

That arrow ballistic chart is really only good at proving no one is actually shooting one pin out to 40 yds. Heck, even 30 for that matter.  

I will say, the last time I actually shot my bow through a chronograph at 20 yds, it lost more speed than what that chart is showing. Drag is obviously different on something with a lot of helical. Just pointing that out.


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## GrantC77

Easton axis match grade+50 grain brass insert+125 grain ramcat=death. All you need.


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## Long Cut

Kris87 said:


> That arrow ballistic chart is really only good at proving no one is actually shooting one pin out to 40 yds. Heck, even 30 for that matter.
> 
> I will say, the last time I actually shot my bow through a chronograph at 20 yds, it lost more speed than what that chart is showing. Drag is obviously different on something with a lot of helical. Just pointing that out.



Lol amen to that. Lotta folks like talking on forums...

There’s different options for types of fletching, helical or straight etc. I will say, I plugged in my current arrow specs and it was dead on with what the chrono showed. Granted that was point blank, never tried past 10 yards. 

Obviously these calculators are not an “end all be all” but definitely give us a good reference point to hopefully save some money.


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## dtala

I have shot heavy arrows for at least 20 years. 160gr STOS heads, 40 gr adapter=200gr head. 100gr brass arrow insert, total arrow weight is 570 gr. Don't remember the FOC but it is high. Fly like a dart, penetrate thru both shields on a big boar. Shot at 260fps out of a Hoyt.

I shoot the same arrow out of a 57# Dwyer longbow.


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## hancock husler

Got these in today


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## BornToHuntAndFish

hancock husler said:


> Got these in today









Congrats on getting your new single bevel broadheads.  To make your image easier & quicker to view, I embedded it above.  Since I was not sure what was in the box, I did some web research & added the 2nd image above which looks like it's probably what's in your "SAF R125" box. Nothing cheap about those.

GrizzlyStik has some good charts at the web link below showing samples of different arrow build or combination specs (insert/head grains, total weight, FOC, length) for different bow poundage ranges which we can use to go to our favorite arrow & broadhead manufacturers to select what we prefer.

I noticed GrizzlyStik also has Dr. Ed Ashby's Reports on their website which I'll include the web link below along with the other alternative to the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation web link to the same helpful Reports & I'll post a sample top report with a few quote samples.



https://www.grizzlystik.com/Charts-W36.aspx

*GrizzlyStik Charts*


> handy charts listing all the different *Momentum TDT* total arrow weight combinations (at length) matched with all six GrizzlyStik broadhead weights and their corresponding arrow FOC percentages




AND


https://www.grizzlystik.com/Dr.-Ed-Ashby-Reports.aspx

*Dr. Ed Ashby Reports *

*NEW 2019 UPDATE - Ashby's Top 12 Arrow Penetration Enhancing Factors*

or

https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/ashby-reports

*Dr. Ed Ashby's Published *
*Arrow & Broadhead Penetration Research*

*Ashby Reports*

*12 Arrow Penetration Enhancing Factors* (PDF) (Start here with audio above)

On Page 3 of the report document below:


> 3. The Arrow’s Weight Forward of Center (FOC)





> Extreme or Ultra-Extreme FOC (EFOC and Ultra-EFOC)





> Ultra-EFOC is Study-defines as above 30%





> EFOC is defined as 19% to 30% FOC





> first measurable tissue-penetration gains due to FOC are manifest at the EFOC level (19%), with penetration gain continuing to increase as FOC increases





> In fresh and living tissues, all EFOC and Ultra-EFOC tests show very, very high penetration gain over arrows having normal FOC (12% and less)





> high FOC (from 12% up through 18%)





> of FOC (24% to 30-plus %) have yielded a very high percentage of complete passthrough hits on Cape and Asian buffalo … and even a few instances of complete passthroughs on elephant and hippo





> preponderance of actual complete-passthrough hunting shots on buffalo have occurred with compound bows having draw-weights from 65 to 70 pounds




And, at the end of the report document on the bottom of Page 8 below:


> No Arrow is a Bone Breaker?





> Some contend that no arrow is a bone breaker. That’s incorrect.





> single rib on a typical mature Asian buffalo bull is thicker than the scapular flat of a moose, elk, zebra or eland. A buffalo rib not only presents a more curved surface to the arrow's impact, it’s tucked behind 3” to 5” of meat and sinew that’s shielded by 1" thick, tire-tread tough skin





> 650 grains demonstrated a 100% bone-breaching rate on Asian buffalo for 196 consecutive shots, with almost one in every five of those shots being taken with a 40# Bear Formula Silver recurve bow





> bone-breaching rate and terminal arrow performance for structurally secure, penetration-enhanced EFOC arrows having a weight above the Heavy Bone Threshold (650 grains)




AND


https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/getting-started

*Getting Started*



> Based on decades of research, an arrow/broadhead combination that weighs at least 650 grains and has Forward of Center (FOC) advantage, with great shot placement, will be lethal





> chart below shows the recommended total arrow and broadhead weights for reliable lethality on specific categories of game animals





> note that arrow weights below 650 grains will not give reliable penetration when heavy bone is encountered





> When arrows + broadheads are 650 grains and up, and follow the 12 penetration enhancing factors, they can be counted on to breach heavy bone.



*Top 12 Arrow Penetration Enhancing Factors*








OR


https://www.ashbybowhunting.org/results

*Results From the Field*



> *MEDIUM GAME: CHART MINIMUM 400 GRAIN TOTAL ARROW WEIGHT. ABF RECOMMENDS 650 GRAINS, 20%+ FOC, CUT ON CONTACT OR SINGLE BEVEL HEAD. *





> commonly hunted whitetail


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## oldguy

Wonder what the Native Americans thought about FOC?


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## splatek

@BornToHuntAndFish great stuff. I have read everything on the foundation site. Hard to argue with science, which many will say is bologna because it was one man doing case studies. However, the good stuff about the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is that their mission is more science. The foundation is relatively new, but It sounds to me like their mission is to demonstrate convincingly how to effectively knock down game with arrows. I am not sure how they plan to do their science, but I will be eagerly reading along.

@oldguy  I was reading an anthropology/archeology report on stone tools and a paper came up on native american bows. They suggested that arrowheads were somewhere slightly below 1 ounce. According to a quick google metric conversion program, 1 ounce weights approximately 425 grains; .5 ounces weighs just a little over 200 grains. I have not seen (nor have I looked) for a report/paper that actually measured (a) weight of broadheads and/or (b) FOC among archeologically discovered arrows. The ashby foundation has some data on some African tribe arrows and FOCs are all pretty high, if my memory serves me well. Sorry I don't have more data to report. Every so often someone on the forum finds an old broadhead, next time that happens I might recommend they weigh it...


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## ninjaneer

Pretty interesting stuff. I had no idea about the single bevel and its advantages.


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## BornToHuntAndFish

splatek said:


> @BornToHuntAndFish great stuff. I have read everything on the foundation site. Hard to argue with science, which many will say is bologna because it was one man doing case studies. However, the good stuff about the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is that their mission is more science. The foundation is relatively new, but It sounds to me like their mission is to demonstrate convincingly how to effectively knock down game with arrows. I am not sure how they plan to do their science, but I will be eagerly reading along.



Yep. Nice having the foundation or ABF doing fine work that benefits the bowhunting community for lots of years with scientific results of more effective ways to bag wild game while helping to lower potential of losing wild game.  Tough for many of us to resist fast, flatter shooting bows with lighter arrows.


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## hancock husler

oldguy said:


> Wonder what the Native Americans thought about FOC?


They made a lot of points and probably had their own science behind it.


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## hancock husler

Big rock - no tracking burnt buffalo


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## hancock husler

I have tried many set ups on my bows, looking at something new to pass time till opening day. I hunt in Kansas and those are big bodied deer, and wanting to push the envelope a little. The way I see it I’m going old school if it works and I’m good with that.


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## oldguy

splatek said:


> @BornToHuntAndFish great stuff. I have read everything on the foundation site. Hard to argue with science, which many will say is bologna because it was one man doing case studies. However, the good stuff about the Ashby Bowhunting Foundation is that their mission is more science. The foundation is relatively new, but It sounds to me like their mission is to demonstrate convincingly how to effectively knock down game with arrows. I am not sure how they plan to do their science, but I will be eagerly reading along.
> 
> @oldguy  I was reading an anthropology/archeology report on stone tools and a paper came up on native american bows. They suggested that arrowheads were somewhere slightly below 1 ounce. According to a quick google metric conversion program, 1 ounce weights approximately 425 grains; .5 ounces weighs just a little over 200 grains. I have not seen (nor have I looked) for a report/paper that actually measured (a) weight of broadheads and/or (b) FOC among archeologically discovered arrows. The ashby foundation has some data on some African tribe arrows and FOCs are all pretty high, if my memory serves me well. Sorry I don't have more data to report. Every so often someone on the forum finds an old broadhead, next time that happens I might recommend they weigh it...


I bet Ryan Gill has something to say about it. He's big primative guy and focuses on detail. I'm not knocking the science, I've read Ashbys stuff and I'm on board. I'm currently using Simmons Tree Shark. But there are SO many cool looking other BH it's tempting to try some others. This is only my third year at trad archery. Hopefully I'll get several more to experiment with!


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## Ihunt

I shoot high FOC arrows. Never seen a negative so why not.

But, I do believe all if not most of his studies were done with traditional bows. That is the main and possibly only reason the he saw such awesome results with his FOC arrows. It’s archers paradox ( if I remember correctly) and it’s something that doesn’t plague compound shooters.

Again, not saying it doesn’t help as I build them but doubt we get the benefits he talks about. 

If you really want to improve penetration up your arrow weight. A heavier arrow tipped with a “real” broadhead should not have any issues with passthroughs on deer sized critters.


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## Hillbilly stalker

I’ve killed a truck load back in the day with a 31 inch 2219, 145 grain wasp and a old Hoyt wheel bow with a huge brace height....I’m thinking 14-16 inches. Silent and deadly. It really lobbed an arrow, but you couldn’t miss at 20 or less.


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## Hillbilly stalker

oldguy said:


> I bet Ryan Gill has something to say about it. He's big primative guy and focuses on detail. I'm not knocking the science, I've read Ashbys stuff and I'm on board. I'm currently using Simmons Tree Shark. But there are SO many cool looking other BH it's tempting to try some others. This is only my third year at trad archery. Hopefully I'll get several more to experiment with!


Here is the info. The man knows his stuff.


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## Eroc33

So I tested my original setup with different weights and 175 defiantly wouldn't shoot right, but 150 seems to be doing pretty good. I have also gotten a longer ATA bow to shoot some targets this summer, and I am going to set it up for 60 lbs. I am going to switch my maxima hunters to the lighter bow and I have ordered a black eagle test pack to test a 550gr and a 650gr arrow in my hunting bow.


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## splatek

Hillbilly stalker said:


> Here is the info. The man knows his stuff.



That was really interesting and reminds me of Dietrich Stout's work on stone tool making and the brain: https://scholarblogs.emory.edu/stoutlab/


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## bowhunter25

Eroc33 said:


> I have always shot 100gr broadheads, and I was thinking about going up to 125gr. But I was on YouTube last night and discovered a video about Dr. Ashby and heavy foc arrows.
> 
> I'm interested in this and im thinking I want to go up to around 200gr broadheads without changing my arrows.
> 
> I currently shoot carbon express maxima hunter 350's, 28.5" and they weigh 392gr with 100 gr broadheads. I dont want mess up my arrow spine, and get to arround 20% foc if possible.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with these heavy broadheads or know of a store that stocks them / pushes heavy foc?



FOC is certainly a hot topic lately in bowhunting. At some point in the process for you, an FOC Calculator might be helpful. But, as some have pointed out, simply going heavier is not all there is too it. Arrow spine, draw weight, speed, draw length, etc are all affect one another.


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