# Grandma is overstepping.....



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

So my mom sent my 5 year old daughter home with a teddy bear that says the Lord's Prayer.  At lunch the other day I told my mom that I gave it away (my friend said he wanted to make some kind of art piece out of it; make its head spin around or something).  

I asked her if she would like it if someone sent my daughter home with a toy that said "Praise be to Isis, Goddess almighty, who protects us from the demon Forest Spirits and brings forth the Godlike power within us." Of course she said she wouldn't like it.  I asked her why and she said "because that isn't real."  I asked her to not expose my daughter to any more of that stuff while she is in her care.  I don't think she got the message.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 9, 2014)

Your mother sounds like a very loving grandmother.  Your daughter is lucky to have her.
.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Your mother sounds like a very loving grandmother.  Your daughter is lucky to have her.
> .



My exposure to her religious ideas caused me to live in fear for a large portion of my life.  I still have to work at healing those wounds every day.  

Imagine telling a little child that they are a born sinner, cursed by Adam and destined for He11.  "Puke smilie"


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## erog (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> My exposure to her religious ideas caused me to live in fear for a large portion of my life.  I still have to work at healing those wounds every day.
> 
> Imagine telling a little child that they are a born sinner, cursed by Adam and destined for He11.  "Puke smilie"



My family told me I was a born sinner and destined for He11. I told my dad to save me a seat by the fire.

I was raised Catholic and I think I probably realized there was no god around the age I got to school. My mind works only on logic and there was nothing telling me that any god existed. My prayers were NEVER answered so unless god is a complete jerk, you're just thinking the words to yourself or talking to yourself. I'm pretty sure doctors call tihs schitzophrenia.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2014)

I believe passing on our beliefs, worldview, etc is a priviledge and responsibility of parenting.  While this is a completely different topic than what I deal with, my kids have one set of grandparents who get zero unsupervised time with my kids because they do not respect my wishes. 

But, I understand what Grandma is trying to accomplish, and it is a very sincere effort on her part, it seems.  I hope you can find a way to work it out while remaining appreciative of her motives.


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## erog (Jan 9, 2014)

I forgot to mention that I'm torn about teaching my kids the ways of Christianity or not when they're born. My fiancee keeps telling me she wants to start going to church and stuff like that when they're born to let them decide for themselves...

I don't know if I agree with this or not. I look at myself and realize there is no God and am able to live my life based on my own abilities. I look at my fiancee's fanatically religious family and I think of them as idiots for it. However, they're happy and enjoy their faith. I guess as long as one is happy it doesn't really matter.

I changed my mind. I'll read them the bible after I read them Lord of the Rings because it's both make believe and I think the Lord of the Rings is a better story...I don't want my kids to be looked at like they're idiots for believing in some invisible being that controls everything including them. I also don't want them thanking this invisible being for everything I provide them with.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2014)

erog said:


> I forgot to mention that I'm torn about teaching my kids the ways of Christianity or not when they're born. My fiancee keeps telling me she wants to start going to church and stuff like that when they're born to let them decide for themselves...
> 
> I don't know if I agree with this or not. I look at myself and realize there is no God and am able to live my life based on my own abilities. I look at my fiancee's fanatically religious family and I think of them as idiots for it. However, they're happy and enjoy their faith. I guess as long as one is happy it doesn't really matter.
> 
> I changed my mind. I'll read them the bible after I read them Lord of the Rings because it's both make believe and I think the Lord of the Rings is a better story...I don't want my kids to be looked at like they're idiots for believing in some invisible being that controls everything including them. I also don't want them thanking this invisible being for everything I provide them with.



That was quick.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I believe passing on our beliefs, worldview, etc is a priviledge and responsibility of parenting.  While this is a completely different topic than what I deal with, my kids have one set of grandparents who get zero unsupervised time with my kids because they do not respect my wishes.
> 
> But, I understand what Grandma is trying to accomplish, and it is a very sincere effort on her part, it seems.  I hope you can find a way to work it out while remaining appreciative of her motives.



I forgive her for she knows not what she does but told her to go forth and do it no longer. 

I want my daughter to learn the difference between something that can be tested (facts) and opinions.  When my daughter told me that Jesus died and came back to life I asked her why she thinks that is possible and she told me "Lola said so."  Now I have to do all kinds of debriefing.  Oh, well.  Parenting ain't easy.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

My mom does it to my daughter too... but I have yet to come out of the closet to my parents... I am afraid I will be written out of their will.... Something I am not willing to risk!!


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> That was quick.



I have no problem with her being exposed to the Bible or the BhagavadgAt.  I think I will have to provide her with that exposure.  I just don't like that my mom calls her beliefs "the truth".


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> My mom does it to my daughter too... but I have yet to come out of the closet to my parents... I am afraid I will be written out of their will.... Something I am not willing to risk!!



We's po'.  All I've got is my integrity.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I want my daughter to learn the difference between something that can be tested (facts) and opinions.  When my daughter told me that Jesus died and came back to life I asked her why she thinks that is possible and she told me "Lola said so."





erog said:


> I don't know if I agree with this or not. I look at myself and realize there is no God and am able to live my life based on my own abilities.



Some of us were able to come to the conclusions we are at despite our parents' best attempts to wash our brains. I feel like the simple act of us presenting those little questions like, "Does that really make sense to you?" without even saying with any fatherly, I'm right, words that it is nonsense, is all our children will need to question other authority figures' opinions appropriately on the subject.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Some of us were able to come to the conclusions we are at despite our parents' best attempts to wash our brains. I feel like the simple act of us presenting those little questions like, "Does that really make sense to you?" without even saying with any fatherly, I'm right, words that it is nonsense, is all our children will need to question other authority figures' opinions appropriately on the subject.




Exactly. I try not to sway her by my inflection but want her to learn how to determine if something "makes sense".  I'm outgunned though when Grandma speaks with such conviction.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

I could speak with as much conviction if I wanted to. I specifically don't want to. I don't want her to think exactly like I do just because I do, that's what she's used to and comfortable with or anything imposed by me. I want my influence on her world view to make sure things make sense to HER.


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## trckdrvr (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I'm outgunned though when Grandma speaks with such conviction.



and maybe you should be..

My Grandmother was born in 1899 and married and raise 9 children during the depression,faith was a big part of her life and she would not rest, hardly eat and couldn't sleep until every newborn grandchild that was born of her family was baptized in the Methodist church..
(I think it was 30-40grandkids)

When it was done..you were fine..all good again in the world(for her)

You didn't argue it with her..You just did it.




Possibly just educate the child on history(everyone likes history,right?)

Just teach her the history of the many,many,many religions the worlds people have followed...

Christianity is simply the religion of OUR time..their have been many.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

So she didn't sleep for like 70 years? Yikes, that is evidence of a God!!!


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

"Thanks for your concern Mom, but I'd appreciate if you'd leave the spiritual education of my children to me."


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

I have a problem with that. It was forced? Even my old self would have had a problem with that.


trckdrvr said:


> You didn't argue it with her..You just did it.




Does this mean that you may not be making your granny proud? If she didn't sleep for 70 years, she may rise from her grave to come back for you!


trckdrvr said:


> Christianity is simply the religion of OUR time..their have been many.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> "Thanks for your concern Mom, but I'd appreciate if you'd leave the spiritual education of my children to me."



That's not a bad idea, but your children will get spiritual education, direction, ideas etc. from all over. I think it's more important to make sure they are able to take it for it is.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

trckdrvr said:


> and maybe you should be..
> 
> My Grandmother was born in 1899 and married and raise 9 children during the depression,faith was a big part of her life and she would not rest, hardly eat and couldn't sleep until every newborn grandchild that was born of her family was baptized in the Methodist church..
> (I think it was 30-40grandkids)
> ...



We watched an animated story about a Native American creation myth yesterday.  Gotta keep at it.  Make sure that she gets well rounded exposure.


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## trckdrvr (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> So she didn't sleep for like 70 years? Yikes, that is evidence of a God!!!




What?..please don't make fun of my Grand mother..its very disrespectful of a woman who I can assure deserved much.

She simply would make sure baptism occurred almost immediately after the child came home from Hosp..


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's not a bad idea, but your children will get spiritual education, direction, ideas etc. from all over. I think it's more important to make sure they are able to take it for it is.



I agree, but there's no need to trash the mother's faith while going about it. Faith is fine, if you recognize it for what it is. 

They will be educated about it from others, and that's where the role of the parent becomes, in the formative years mostly, a defensive line against it while exposing them to it all in a safe, and responsible way. 

Ignorance isn't the answer, education is, but it's not the Grandma's place to educate those kids. It's the role of the parents.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> "Thanks for your concern Mom, but I'd appreciate if you'd leave the spiritual education of my children to me."



Nice.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 9, 2014)

I taught my children that they don't have to form an opinion on every subject, but if they do choose to express an opinion, they should be able to substantiate that opinion and present a reasonable argument for it if questioned. 

I discuss religious issues with them the same way I discuss political issues.  They ask me what the differing opinions are and the most common arguments for each respective opinion.  They research the subject more on their own before beginning to form their own opinions.

Their opinions may not be right, but they can definitely tell you why they believe it.  I've never heard them say they believe something just because that's what they were told.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I taught my children that they don't have to form an opinion on every subject, but if they do choose to express an opinion, they should be able to substantiate that opinion and present a reasonable argument for it if questioned.
> 
> I discuss religious issues with them the same way I discuss political issues.  They ask me what the differing opinions are and the most common arguments for each respective opinion.  They research the subject more on their own before beginning to form their own opinions.
> 
> Their opinions may not be right, but they can definitely tell you why they believe it.  I've never heard them say they believe something just because that's what they were told.




They don't have to say it but they do it.  They trust certain people to tell them the truth especially when they're young.  I don't have a problem with Grandma telling her that brushing her teeth is good for her and for her to trust Grandma.  This religion thing is a big deal though.  It could set her on a dangerous path.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Nice.



There are always ways to engage people of opposing views without being belligerent.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> There are always ways to engage people of opposing views without being belligerent.





StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I agree, but there's no need to trash the mother's faith while going about it. Faith is fine, if you recognize it for what it is.



Did my response seem belligerent??


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## HawgJawl (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> They don't have to say it but they do it.  They trust certain people to tell them the truth especially when they're young.  I don't have a problem with Grandma telling her that brushing her teeth is good for her and for her to trust Grandma.  This religion thing is a big deal though.  It could set her on a dangerous path.



Perhaps it's just my kids, but I found that on issues where there are many different opinions (as opposed to should you play in the roadway), they loved the feeling of empowerment when given permission to choose for themselves.  Being presented with as much information on as many different opinions as possible made them less likely to simply take "Grandma's" position because they viewed that as giving up what little bit of power they had.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Did my response seem belligerent??



No, that part was directed at the OP who castigated his mother's faith rather than just ask her to allow him to be the child's parent.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> They don't have to say it but they do it.  They trust certain people to tell them the truth especially when they're young.  I don't have a problem with Grandma telling her that brushing her teeth is good for her and for her to trust Grandma.  This religion thing is a big deal though.  It could set her on a dangerous path.



But the benefit of brushing her teeth and praising god are just as truthful to grandma.. 

It's definitely important that grandma knows your boundaries, but you can't shelter your kids from that kind of stuff. It's just impossible.

That's why I think it's enough for me to make sure I just ask my daughter to think about the things she hears to make sure they make sense to HER and not necessarily introduce my own opinion or conclusion.


Children are easy to convince as you are clearly aware of. Especially when it's by someone who they SHOULD trust. Like their parent or grandparent. I don't want my daughter to have the same conclusions as me just because I'm daddy and daddy must be right.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Perhaps it's just my kids, but I found that on issues where there are many different opinions (as opposed to should you play in the roadway), they loved the feeling of empowerment when given permission to choose for themselves.  Being presented with as much information on as many different opinions as possible made them less likely to simply take "Grandma's" position because they viewed that as giving up what little bit of power they had.



How old are your kids?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> How old are your kids?



They're 18 and 21.

I started what I described above as soon as they started asking "WHY" on matters of opinion.  Obviously this only applies to matters of opinion and not things that I required of them, such as brushing their teeth.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 9, 2014)

Sounds like grandma needs one o' them new Satan statues that are poppin' up everywhere.

My mom avoids the topic of religion with me, because she doesn't like what I've got to say.  I don't have kids, so I'm not sure what she would do there.  Hopefully she would respect my wishes, but I'm not so sure she would.


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## bullethead (Jan 9, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> My mom does it to my daughter too... but I have yet to come out of the closet to my parents... I am afraid I will be written out of their will.... Something I am not willing to risk!!



All kinds of prices to pay for not believing


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## 660griz (Jan 9, 2014)

I wish I could say that I would have done the same but, sadly, I would have probably done nothing.  I, unfortunately, am very accustomed to tip toeing around christians. Been pretty good at it for a long time. My family was deeply religious so, I didn't want to rock the boat.
 Never told my kids anything about religion until they asked. They went to church with friends. I wanted them to make up their own mind. I did tell them to check out as many religions as they could because I didn't know which one, if any, was best for them. They are all grown up and all are atheist as far as I know. 

What your Ma did, as you know, comes from years and years of brainwashing. That is why I just let it go. Easily reversed in kids your daughters age. 

All that being said, I should have done more of what you did...maybe.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

I always tried to indulge my kids' questions, even about the things I required of them, up to a point. 

"Why do I have to brush my teeth?"

 Show them someone with awful teeth. "Theirs got this way by not brushing their teeth, and other things that aren't healthy. Is this what you want to happen to yours? It will if you don't take care of them early and often..."


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I always tried to indulge my kids' questions, even about the things I required of them, up to a point.
> 
> "Why do I have to brush my teeth?"
> 
> Show them someone with awful teeth. "Theirs got this way by not brushing their teeth, and other things that aren't healthy. Is this what you want to happen to yours? It will if you don't take care of them early and often..."



I'm surprised at how well a 5 year old can reason......sometimes.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I'm surprised at how well a 5 year old can reason......sometimes.



It's not perfect, but they do understand logic.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 9, 2014)

I even got mine to control her tempers by having a reset button on her time outs. Every time she whimpered or cried in timeout the counter reset. I only put her in there for 1 minute, she'd cry and turn it into 10. A couple episodes of that, and the realization that she was the one in control of her punishments, and if she even got them, and she straightened right up. It got to where I could just shoot her a glance in public, when she would act out, and she would sit up straighter and act like a little lady. 

60 seconds in the restroom of a restaurant, when you want to be out with your family, is a long time. Especially when you make it longer. People always thought I was taking her in there to spank her. The truth is that I never laid a hand on her. I didn't have to.


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## erog (Jan 9, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> That was quick.



When I said I was torn I was actually thinking about how I'm torn on whether or not I want to make a fight out of this with my fiancee . Throughout that post I remembered how stupid I think her family is and there's no way I want anyone to look at my kids and think they're that stupid. It would be an embarrassment. If they're stupid on their own then fine, but that's no reason to believe that everything that ever was and will be is created by an almighty invisible person.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I'm surprised at how well a 5 year old can reason......sometimes.



Yep


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2014)

erog said:


> When I said I was torn I was actually thinking about how I'm torn on whether or not I want to make a fight out of this with my fiancee . Throughout that post I remembered how stupid I think her family is and there's no way I want anyone to look at my kids and think they're that stupid. It would be an embarrassment. If they're stupid on their own then fine, but that's no reason to believe that everything that ever was and will be is created by an almighty invisible person.



IF you have troubles with her family now, it will only get worse on the other side of the wedding.

The math of marriage is easy, take whatever bugs you now, put it to the power of 10, and that's how much it will bug you after the wedding.

Now, as far as perceptions are concerned, Christianity is a widely accepted worldview, and I highly doubt very many view them in the same manner you do.  So I wouldn't worry about it too much.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I'm surprised at how well a 5 year old can reason......sometimes.



It depends on their personality types.  My 4 yr old is completely "in the moment," and reason revolves around want.  My 13 yr old is an "old soul," and has always been able to grasp logical concepts.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 9, 2014)

Personally, I don't think this -


> believe that everything that ever was and will be is created by an almighty invisible person.


Equals this -


> they're that stupid


People believe in a god for a variety of reasons. As far as I know there is no "IQ number" where below it you believe and above it you don't.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Personally, I don't think this -
> 
> Equals this -
> 
> People believe in a god for a variety of reasons. As far as I know there is no "IQ number" where below it you believe and above it you don't.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> They don't have to say it but they do it.  They trust certain people to tell them the truth especially when they're young.  I don't have a problem with Grandma telling her that brushing her teeth is good for her and for her to trust Grandma.  This religion thing is a big deal though.  It could set her on a dangerous path.



Weren't you brought up in the church?  Don't you think differently now?  Same with me.   We both could have easily taken the devout path; goodness knows I was at church enough. It didn't stick though. Never could make all the pieces fit.  My kids certainly get indoctrinated here and there, but I trust the path they choose will workout.  As I'm sure you do with yours.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> So my mom sent my 5 year old daughter home with a teddy bear that says the Lord's Prayer.  At lunch the other day I told my mom that I gave it away (my friend said he wanted to make some kind of art piece out of it; make its head spin around or something).
> 
> I asked her if she would like it if someone sent my daughter home with a toy that said "Praise be to Isis, Goddess almighty, who protects us from the demon Forest Spirits and brings forth the Godlike power within us." Of course she said she wouldn't like it.  I asked her why and she said "because that isn't real."  I asked her to not expose my daughter to any more of that stuff while she is in her care.  I don't think she got the message.



That is a tough one Ambush. You are the parent. What you wish for your child is very important. The grandparent's wish's are also important. They are also her blood. In the old days, children were raised by families, not just parents, but, it is your child, and you have to do what you think is right by her.

On the other hand, she will be influenced by all kinds of people in her life, so this may be an opportunity for you to teach her how to handle those experiences, no matter who they come from.

I would draw the line at ANY talking animal toy. My family ignored me too, and now I have a pile of talking animal toys in the donation pile. I don't care what they say, the personification of animals is wrong. BTW, yes, I am serious about that.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

ted_BSR said:


> That is a tough one Ambush. You are the parent. What you wish for your child is very important. The grandparent's wish's are also important. They are also her blood. In the old days, children were raised by families, not just parents, but, it is your child, and you have to do what you think is right by her.
> 
> On the other hand, she will be influenced by all kinds of people in her life, so this may be an opportunity for you to teach her how to handle those experiences, no matter who they come from.
> 
> I would draw the line at ANY talking animal toy. My family ignored me too, and now I have a pile of talking animal toys in the donation pile. I don't care what they say, the personification of animals is wrong. BTW, yes, I am serious about that.




Eh.  She knows that animals don't talk.  She's helped me take plenty of animals apart.  

We watched some more videos tonight (Hindu and Christian creation myths):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9yWwFWpbRo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVUBg7___w4

She asked "Why are we talking about different gods?"  I told her that I wanted her to know that not everybody believes in the same god that Nana, Grams and Lola believe in.  

She noticed all on her own that they had similar themes.  I'm so exited for her.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2014)

ted_BSR said:


> I would draw the line at ANY talking animal toy. My family ignored me too, and now I have a pile of talking animal toys in the donation pile. I don't care what they say, the personification of animals is wrong. BTW, yes, I am serious about that.



What about talking snakes and donkeys?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Eh.  She knows that animals don't talk.  She's helped me take plenty of animals apart.
> 
> We watched some more videos tonight (Hindu and Christian creation myths):
> 
> ...



It is your prerogative, and I commend you for taking an active role in her life.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 9, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> What about talking snakes and donkeys?



Could be, but they don't need batteries.


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## 660griz (Jan 10, 2014)

ted_BSR said:


> Could be, but they don't need batteries.



That is a great thing about the imagination.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 10, 2014)

ted_BSR said:


> I would draw the line at ANY talking animal toy. My family ignored me too, and now I have a pile of talking animal toys in the donation pile. I don't care what they say, the personification of animals is wrong. BTW, yes, I am serious about that.



Are you referring to things like tickle me elmo too?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 10, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Are you referring to things like tickle me elmo too?



Not as much as animal depictions, Elmo is a "pretend" character. Although, my child has never tolerated any type of toy that talks, without any of my influence. She just doesn't like them, especially Elmo.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 10, 2014)

ted_BSR said:


> Not as much as animal depictions, Elmo is a "pretend" character. Although, my child has never tolerated any type of toy that talks, without any of my influence. She just doesn't like them, especially Elmo.



How do you feel about Cronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the wardrobe?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 12, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> How do you feel about Cronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch, and the wardrobe?



The books were mediocre. The movies are just bad all around.


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