# Your thoughts on John Macaarthur



## SemperFiDawg

What are your thoughts on him and his Strange Fire Conference and self titled book.  If you haven't heard of it you owe it to yourself to look into this.  I think what he's doing is going to have some lasting consequences on the Church as a whole. I have my thoughts about him, but I wanted more input from some of you heavy hitters to maybe broaden my perspective before I post them.


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## Artfuldodger

The Charismatic Movement is the international trend of historically mainstream congregations adopting beliefs and practices similar to Pentecostals. Fundamental to the movement is the use of spiritual gifts. Among Protestants, the movement began around 1960. Among Roman Catholics, it originated around 1967.

So this Strange Fire Conference is to show he doesn't agree with gifts of the Holy Spirit? Is it another "the Bible vs the Holy Spirit debate?"
I never knew the  Charismatic Movement was started by Hippies:

"Ninety percent of the people around the world connected to the Charismatic movement take ownership of the prosperity gospel," he said. "Twenty-four to 25 million of them deny the trinity. One hundred million of them are Roman Catholics. This is not some fringe; this is the movement. And it is growing at a rapid rate."

According to MacArthur, the Charismatic movement is an "alien movement" whose roots can be traced back to 1966 when the hippies of San Francisco moved to Orange County and joined Calvary Chapel and the "barefoot, drug-induced young people told the church how the church should act." he said. "Hymns and suits went out. For the first time in the history of the church, the conduct of the church was conformed to a sub-culture that was born of LSD and marijuana."

http://www.christianpost.com/news/j...-fire-conference-is-divisive-unloving-107051/


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## jmharris23

I think he's right more than he is wrong. I appreciate his strong stand on God's word. He is a gifted teacher and expositor. He's just a man. This is what I think about John MacArthur.


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## Artfuldodger

I do believe as he does on Jesus being Lord & Savior.(Lordship Salvation)
He is more Fundamental than I am on the Bible and his beliefs on the Holy Spirit. I don't believe the Holy Spirit grants gifts but does offer miraculous guidance. 
I don't see the need for a conference. I've been to many Holiness Baptist Campground meetings. The attendees looked like Christians to me.
I'm not a follower of the Charismatic movement either but I could worship with them, until they ask for money.


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## clayservant

I would not walk across the street to hear what he has to say, his whole ministry is tearing down other Ministries. his has no power and I believe he is jealous of those that do. and while we are on this When has God ever said the gifts of the Spirit would only be a tease to those that need it? God did not heal people, and set people free, and raise the dead, just to show off his power, he did it to show US how to do it and he NEVER  SAID STOP..... the gifts are for today more than ever and with it comes power to show GODS power and bring glory to him. I don,t see how some of you can think God just came to earth to play with us for 33 years and do great things just to say na, na, na, na ,na  and stop it and say see what I can DO?........unreal people..God is the same yesterdat, Today and forever.


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## gemcgrew

clayservant said:


> I would not walk across the street to hear what he has to say, his whole ministry is tearing down other Ministries. his has no power and I believe he is jealous of those that do.


Make up your mind. Is he tearing down other ministries or is he powerless?



clayservant said:


> God did not heal people, and set people free, and raise the dead, just to show off his power


John 9:3


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## clayservant

Hey the op wanted MY thoughts on John Macaarthur . well that be them. got it


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## clayservant

gemcgrew said:


> Make up your mind. Is he tearing down other ministries or is he powerless?
> 
> 
> John 9:3



OK you cannot understand this with out verse 4 , well just take the whole thing in context...
John 9:2-5
King James Version (KJV)

2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents........that he was born blind?

3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.

4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

The first thing you MUST understand is that there were NO 
Commas, Periods, Exclamation Points, *semicolons, colons, dashes,   in the original  text, they were ALL ADDED by the translators. also Jesus was a man of FEW words. that being said, it should read this way....



3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents.              but that the works of God should be made manifest in him  4 I must work the works of him that sent me while it is day:

  the night cometh, when no man can work.*


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## formula1

*Re:*

1st - The Azusa Street Revival was a historic Pentecostal revival meeting that took place in Los Angeles, California and is the origin of the Pentecostal movement. It was led by William J. Seymour, an African American preacher. It began with a meeting on April 9, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915. The Charismatic movement came as a result of many mainstream denominations beginning to embrace the Pentecostal movement. But the real truth is it began in Jesus Christ, who sent out the twelve, and who poured out His Spirit on the day Pentecost to 120 gathered in the upper room.  It never ceased, though many will claim it so.

In other words, it did not initiate with the hippies in 1966.

2nd - I have not listened to anything John MacArthur teaches since his cessationist views were identified.  Concerning this conference, nothing good comes from attacking the bretheren and for this reason alone, I say false teacher, at least concerning this subject and I hope he repents.  There is no love in attacking believers! And what about attacks is doing anything to make the body of Christ one?

John 17
20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.

I know many of my Pentecostal and Charismatic family will welcome you with open arms. Come as you are!  That's what my current Baptist church has done for me. All Mr. MacArthur needs to do is the same.  Embrace others in the love of Christ!

3rd -  Scripture says
Joel 2  ( Also quoted by Peter in Acts 2)
28 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.
29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. 

Acts 2
38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 

God Bless!


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## centerpin fan

John MacArthur > Benny Hinn


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## Artfuldodger

clayservant said:


> OK you cannot understand this with out verse 4 , well just take the whole thing in context...
> John 9:2-5
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents........that he was born blind?
> 
> 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
> 
> 4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
> 
> The first thing you MUST understand is that there were NO
> Commas, Periods, Exclamation Points, *semicolons, colons, dashes,   in the original  text, they were ALL ADDED by the translators. also Jesus was a man of FEW words. that being said, it should read this way....
> 
> 
> 
> 3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents.              but that the works of God should be made manifest in him  4 I must work the works of him that sent me while it is day:
> 
> the night cometh, when no man can work.*


*

I do like your version better as it follows my free will beliefs, but I gotta ask: Why wasn't the punctuation in the Bible "inspired?" It makes all the difference in the world.

I'm reminded of the "today you will be with me in paradise comma" that might be in the wrong place also.*


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## mossyback8874

I agree with pretty much everything he says.  There's not been one movement that's produced more false teaching and heretics than the Charasmatic movement.  As far as I'm concerned, this movement has done more to harm Christianity than any other.  Of course, it's just my opinion


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## centerpin fan

formula1 said:


> I know many of my Pentecostal and Charismatic family will welcome you with open arms. Come as you are!  That's what my current Baptist church has done for me.



Would your church ever invite Todd Bentley to speak?


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## SemperFiDawg

formula1 said:


> 1st - The Azusa Street Revival was a historic Pentecostal revival meeting that took place in Los Angeles, California and is the origin of the Pentecostal movement. It was led by William J. Seymour, an African American preacher. It began with a meeting on April 9, 1906, and continued until roughly 1915. The Charismatic movement came as a result of many mainstream denominations beginning to embrace the Pentecostal movement. But the real truth is it began in Jesus Christ, who sent out the twelve, and who poured out His Spirit on the day Pentecost to 120 gathered in the upper room.  It never ceased, though many will claim it so.
> 
> In other words, it did not initiate with the hippies in 1966.
> 
> 2nd - I will not listen to anything John MacArthur teaches.  Nothing good comes from attacking the bretheren and for this reason alone, I say false teacher, and I hope he repents.  There is no love in attacking believers! And what about attacks is doing anything to make the body of Christ one?
> 
> John 17
> 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.
> 
> I know many of my Pentecostal and Charismatic family will welcome you with open arms. Come as you are!  That's what my current Baptist church has done for me. All Mr. MacArthur needs to do is the same.  Embrace others in the love of Christ!
> 
> 3rd -  Scripture says
> Joel 2  ( Also quoted by Peter in Acts 2)
> 28 “And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh; your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, and your young men shall see visions.
> 29 Even on the male and female servants in those days I will pour out my Spirit.
> 30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and columns of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. 32 And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> 
> Acts 2
> 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
> 
> God Bless!



A sincere Thank You for that insightful post.  I was hoping I was not the only one out here who felt that way.  I'm Baptist also but my wife comes from a charismatic background and I often look to her for insight on spiritual matters. As a result of our separate backgrounds  I have studied the Holy Spirit much these last few years and have reached a couple of conclusions.
1) The gifts of the spirit are supernatural gifts and are as legitimate today as they were in Acts.
2) To deny them is to deny the power of the Holy Ghost,   hence to deny God
3)They are poorly understood by most and hence open to abuse by many.
4) Because of this abuse, many so called "Prominent Denominations" steer well clear of addressing the supernatural work of the Holy Spirit which I find a pity because it is explicitly the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity, that we have with us in person TODAY working through us; yet we are hesitant to acknowledge him and his works outside of giving him credit of convicting sinners of their sins.  We sort of treat the Holy Spirit like a guard dog.  We see someone in need of salvation and sic the Holy Ghost on them to convict them of their sin, but once they are saved we want him back on the leash and in his pen.  Out of sight, out of mind.

Regarding John MacArthur:  To put it mildly, he baffles me.  For the life of me I can't understand why a man of his education, as well as a "Man of God" , would make such inflammatory accusations against fellow Christians.  I told my wife regarding him and his Strange Fire remarks, "I can only think of two explanations for his conduct.  
1) He really believes what he is saying, in which case he is wrong and is guilty of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost......the one unpardonable sin
2)  He doesn't believe what he is saying, but is doing it just to drive sales of his new book."

I'm not sure which is worse.  Either way, I find it hard to believe he could not have foreseen the implications and problems this is gonna have on the Church worldwide, yet he did it anyway.  To me personally, that more than anything he has said, shows me where his heart is.


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## centerpin fan

SemperFiDawg said:


> 3)They are poorly understood by most and hence open to abuse by many.




... which prompted my question:




centerpin fan said:


> Would your church ever invite Todd Bentley to speak?


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## SemperFiDawg

centerpin fan said:


> ... which prompted my question:



Sorry CPF.  Never heard of him.  Let me look him up and get back to you?


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## SemperFiDawg

Well that didn't take long.  Nope!


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## centerpin fan

SemperFiDawg said:


> Sorry CPF.  Never heard of him.  Let me look him up and get back to you?



Allow me to quote Dr. Zaius from _Planet of the Apes_:

"Don't look for it ... You may not like what you'll find."


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## centerpin fan

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well that didn't take long.  Nope!



I didn't hear about this Strange Fire thing until I saw this thread.  Maybe MacArthur is just focusing on loons like Todd Bentley.


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## SemperFiDawg

*U*



centerpin fan said:


> I didn't hear about this Strange Fire thing until I saw this thread.  Maybe MacArthur is just focusing on loons like Todd Bentley.



That is what I had hoped when I first heard about it also.  Unfortunately he paints the entire Charismatic movement with the same brush.  From the quotes I have seen it is bad.


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## formula1

*Re:*



centerpin fan said:


> John MacArthur > Benny Hinn





centerpin fan said:


> Would your church ever invite Todd Bentley to speak?



No on the Todd Bentley thing.

God=Jesus=Holy Spirit(in purpose)>John MacArthur > Benny Hinn

I've been through the mess and seen the darkside very well.  I will not marginalize or limit the work of God via the Holy Spirit and I will not alienate brothers in Christ.  God has the power to do exactly what He wants and there is, quite frankly, nothing you or I can do about it.

But there is this small little thing, 'By their fruit you shall know them'.  Wisdom in man should never forget that. Scripture requires us to test the spirits and we better have the wisdom to remember this. The wolves always gather the weak and tear them apart!


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## centerpin fan

formula1 said:


> Scripture requires us to test the spirits ...



Agreed.


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## formula1

*Re:*



SemperFiDawg said:


> A sincere Thank You for that insightful post.



Your welcome.  You are not alone!


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## clayservant

Artfuldodger said:


> I do like your version better as it follows my free will beliefs, but I gotta ask: Why wasn't the punctuation in the Bible "inspired?" It makes all the difference in the world.
> 
> I'm reminded of the "today you will be with me in paradise comma" that might be in the wrong place also.



Because like I said, it was not in the Original text, the Original text (Scriptures) were what was , and is inspired, not the translations, including the king james version


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## centerpin fan

SemperFiDawg said:


> Unfortunately he paints the entire Charismatic movement with the same brush.


 

Not according to this:





Based on this video, he's addressing the "aberrations" within the charismatic movement.


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## clayservant

So you either believe his way or you are goin to you know where, I pray in tongues , I have cast out demons, I lay hands on the sick and they recover, I have all my needs met and everything I want in life,  but this is of the devil he would tell you.........  he is walking on thin ice and is very close to doin this......

Matthew 12:31
King James Version (KJV)

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


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## centerpin fan

clayservant said:


> So you either believe his way or you are goin to you know where ...



I don't think he's saying that at all.


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## gemcgrew

I am going to try to listen to the conference messages over the weekend. I have a lot of respect for John MacArthur. I think it was back in the early 90's when I came across his broadcast on the radio. I don't remember the message but something caught my attention and I listened all the way home. I remember thinking that here is a man that sees what I see in the scriptures. The Lord used him mightily in my life and for that I am truly grateful. I do find him to be inconsistent in theology. I would say that he is partially reformed in that area.

I am looking forward to listening to these conference messages. It will be difficult for me to listen to Phil Johnson though.


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## clayservant

Now I must say that I watched some of the people that they are talking about and some of the crazy stuff they do, and I do not accept what they do as GOD, it is man doin his own thing not the Holy Spirit.


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## clayservant

you cannot lump all of the Spirit filled holy ghost people into one pile


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## gemcgrew

clayservant said:


> Now I must say that I watched some of the people that they are talking about and some of the crazy stuff they do, and I do not accept what they do as GOD, it is man doin his own thing not the Holy Spirit.


Why are you tearing down their ministries?


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## centerpin fan

clayservant said:


> Now I must say that I watched some of the people that they are talking about and some of the crazy stuff they do, and I do not accept what they do as GOD, it is man doin his own thing not the Holy Spirit.



Agreed.


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## clayservant

gemcgrew said:


> Why are you tearing down their ministries?



What are you 12?


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## gemcgrew

clayservant said:


> What are you 12?




Just couldn't help but to see the contrast of post#5 and #29.


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## clayservant

gemcgrew said:


> Just couldn't help but to see the contrast of post#5 and #29.



There is none.   he tells lies about some people that I have followed for over 30 years, and what I said is fact, most of that stuff they were doing is not in the bible, shaking, falling out , you cannot find it in the bible, and I only want things that are in the new testament.


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## SemperFiDawg

Here are some quotes with the link posted at the bottom.

Christlikeness over Flamboyance: "Those who have had a charismatic experience have been baptized with the Spirit, they say-and that supernaturally empowers obedience, fosters holiness, and produces the fruit of the Spirit. If their claims were true, charismatics ought to be producing leaders renowned for Christlikeness rather than flamboyance. Moral failures, financial chicanery, and public scandals would be comparatively rare in their movement."(5)

Corruption of Worship: "Charismatic theology…has warped genuine worship through unbridled emotionalism, polluted prayer with private gibberish, contaminated true spirituality with unbiblical mysticism, and corrupted faith by turning it into a creative force for speaking worldly desires into existence."(xvii)

Scriptural Authority: "If Scripture alone were truly their final authority, charismatic Christians would never tolerate patently unbiblical practices-like mumbling in nonsensical prayer languages, uttering fallible prophecies, worshipping in disorderly ways, or being knocked senseless by the supposed power of the Holy Spirit." (16)

On comparing Charismatic Movement to the Day of Pentecost described in Acts 2: "the Charismatic Movement…grew out of the deficient soteriology of the Holiness Movement; it was marked by inconsistent eyewitness testimony; it produced counterfeit religious experiences; and it was initiated by a disreputable spiritual leader." (28)

http://www.christianpost.com/news/e...y-over-charismatic-movt-to-still-burn-107381/

This was just one article.  I tried to find something positive that has been written, but it seems everyone is either condemning him or distancing themselves from him.


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## gemcgrew

clayservant said:


> There is none.   he tells lies about some people that I have followed for over 30 years, and what I said is fact, most of that stuff they were doing is not in the bible, shaking, falling out , you cannot find it in the bible, and I only want things that are in the new testament.


I can't say if he is lying, I haven't listened to the conference yet. One thing that I have noticed with Charismatics is all the I's. See your post #26 as a good example.


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## Artfuldodger

clayservant said:


> Now I must say that I watched some of the people that they are talking about and some of the crazy stuff they do, and I do not accept what they do as GOD, it is man doin his own thing not the Holy Spirit.



Are you Apostolic or Pentecostal? I welcome your views if you are as we don't have many on this forum. The more the merrier. 
I think Gem was pointing out that you were more or less doing the same thing you were accusing John MacArthur of doing. By calling what other Christians  do as crazy is the same as Christians calling what you do as crazy. We are all guilty of doing this including me. 
I can't say the snake handlers have less guidance in the Holy Spirit than you do or I do. For me I'm OK with tongues but Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit seems weird, possibly more so than snake handling.
I have kin that are Holiness so I've seen some of their beliefs. I have no way of knowing it it is the Holy Spirit or not. I do feel the Holy Spirit manifest himself in more ways than just giving us the Bible. He's got too many titles to do just that.
John MacArthur said if people believe something for many years doesn't make it so. I would agree. I don't care if every Christian other than me believes differently from me. They could be wrong and I could be right. This is what John MacAuthur is saying why he did this conference. I don't agree with all of his beliefs but if he has the conviction to do it, he should do it regardless of the division it might cause. It would be just as wrong for him to remain silent as it would you talking about some of the "crazy stuff they do." It would be wrong for me to do this too but I probably have. I've kept quiet around my family about things just to keep peace so I am a hypocrite.


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## gordon 2

I'm not knowledgeable concerning JM, but I know that especially in California and other localized areas there is a problem with some said of the charismatic movement.

I know that some from the former Latter Rain movement have made the "summer camp styles" and youth ministry of that movement into a permanent (main) feature. There is nothing really wrong in this in itself, however if the leaders are flying on their own even a little bit or are in fact under a false spirit, the damage to the lambs can be tremendous.

Formula 1 said that it was possible to see where and worry where, "The wolves always gather the weak and tear them apart!" This fact to me talks of how people who orchestrate a cult proceed. In some places as I have said chrismatic ministry is totally focused on young people, by young people. If there is no accounting for sound ministry from the greater church then there is a problem. And the problem is damaged pilgrims--and eventually a damaged church.

There are many who have been called to be prophets and apostles( as a feature of the charismatic movement) from a false spirit and who will never submit to a prophet or an apostle greater than they are. And I have heard it said that people in a cult, often go from cult to cult, not cult to mainstream. It is a sad thing to know what should be a mature christian for his/her age still hold on from youth to the false calling of a false spirit. It is a sad thing to see someone contradict themselves from sentence to sentence, paragragh to paragraph, hour to hour, day to day, yr to yr. And this is the damage that lack of proper acountability in the church can do.

False spirits are everywhere. If they are inadvertantly carted on a mission to young people, no matter what denomination or movement, then their is going to be problems--for the lambs and eventually the sheep! and eventually the greater church itself. It is one thing for a person to go from a charismatic meeting into a mainstream congragation when refreshed in Christ, sparked in faith. It is another thing that same person come in a mainstream church with the motivations from a false spirit, a spirit falsely presented as in Christ-- and therefore of spirit not motivated in Christ.

I suspect that JM might be motivated ( cashing in) by this percieved need of correction, which is original to a pentecostal brother. ( Note that I'm not against or in condemnation of the charismatics. As a matter of fact, I think with proper authority the chrismatic movement is a genuine aspect of the church and ministry.)

><iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/a5ZvPwFamqs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe


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## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I am going to try to listen to the conference messages over the weekend. I have a lot of respect for John MacArthur. I think it was back in the early 90's when I came across his broadcast on the radio. I don't remember the message but something caught my attention and I listened all the way home. I remember thinking that here is a man that sees what I see in the scriptures. The Lord used him mightily in my life and for that I am truly grateful. I do find him to be inconsistent in theology. I would say that he is partially reformed in that area.
> 
> I am looking forward to listening to these conference messages. It will be difficult for me to listen to Phil Johnson though.



My experience and impression of MacArthur is similarly positive.  However, when speaking and writing about false teachers he is often weak on nuance, resulting in a weakened result from a soundly based effort.


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## clayservant

gemcgrew said:


> I can't say if he is lying, I haven't listened to the conference yet. One thing that I have noticed with Charismatics is all the I's. See your post #26 as a good example.



O Here are some more for you then....

KNOWING WHO I AM IN CHRIST
I am complete in Him Who is the Head of all principality and power (Colossians 2:10).
I am alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5).
I am free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).
I am far from oppression, and fear does not come near me (Isaiah 54:14).
I am born of God, and the evil one does not touch me (1 John 5:18).
I am holy and without blame before Him in love (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:16).
I have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16; Philippians 2:5).
I have the peace of God that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7).
I have the Greater One living in me; greater is He Who is in me than he who is in the world (1 John 4:4).
I have received the gift of righteousness and reign as a king in life by Jesus Christ (Romans 5:17).
I have received the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Jesus, the eyes of my understanding being enlightened (Ephesians 1:17,18).
I have received the power of the Holy Spirit to lay hands on the sick and see them recover, to cast out demons, to speak with new tongues. I have power over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means harm me (Mark 16:17,18; Luke 10:17,19).
I have put off the old man and have put on the new man, which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of Him Who created me (Colossians 3:9,10).
I have given, and it is given to me; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, men give into my bosom (Luke 6:38).
1
I have no lack for my God supplies all of my need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus
(Philippians 4:19).
I can quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one with my shield of faith (Ephesians 6:16).
I can do all things through Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:13).
I show forth the praises of God Who has called me out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9).
I am Godâ€™s childâŽ¯for I am born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, which lives and abides
forever (1 Peter 1:23).
I am Godâ€™s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10).
I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
I am a spirit beingâŽ¯alive to God (Romans 6:11;1 Thessalonians 5:23).
I am a believer, and the light of the Gospel shines in my mind (2 Corinthians 4:4).
I am a doer of the Word and blessed in my actions (James 1:22, 25).
I am a joint-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17).
I am more than a conqueror through Him Who loves me (Romans 8:37).
I am an overcomer by the blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony (Revelation 12:11).
I am a partaker of His divine nature (2 Peter 1:3,4).
I am an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20).
I am part of a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people (1 Peter 2:9).
I am the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).
2
I am the temple of the Holy Spirit; I am not my own (1 Corinthians 6:19).
I am the head and not the tail; I am above only and not beneath (Deuteronomy 28:13).
I am the light of the world (Matthew 5:14).
I am His elect, full of mercy, kindness, humility, and longsuffering (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12).
I am forgiven of all my sins and washed in the Blood (Ephesians 1:7).
I am delivered from the power of darkness and translated into Godâ€™s kingdom (Colossians 1:13).
I am redeemed from the curse of sin, sickness, and poverty (Deuteronomy 28:15-68; Galatians 3:13).
I am firmly rooted, built up, established in my faith and overflowing with gratitude (Colossians 2:7).
I am called of God to be the voice of His praise (Psalm 66:8; 2 Timothy 1:9).
I am healed by the stripes of Jesus (Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24).
I am raised up with Christ and seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 2:12.
I am greatly loved by God (Romans 1:7; Ephesians 2:4; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4).
I am strengthened with all might according to His glorious power (Colossians 1:11).
I am submitted to God, and the devil flees from me because I resist him in the Name of Jesus (James 4:7).
I press on toward the goal to win the prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward (Philippians 3:14).
For God has not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, love, and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7).
It is not I who live, but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:20).
Copyright © 2008 Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc.
3


And by the way......the devil does not like for us to know who WE ARE in christ.


----------



## clayservant

now YOU have a blessed weekend.


----------



## clayservant

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you Apostolic or Pentecostal? I welcome your views if you are as we don't have many on this forum. The more the merrier.
> I think Gem was pointing out that you were more or less doing the same thing you were accusing John MacArthur of doing. By calling what other Christians  do as crazy is the same as Christians calling what you do as crazy. We are all guilty of doing this including me.
> I can't say the snake handlers have less guidance in the Holy Spirit than you do or I do. For me I'm OK with tongues but Holy laughter or drunk in the spirit seems weird, possibly more so than snake handling.
> I have kin that are Holiness so I've seen some of their beliefs. I have no way of knowing it it is the Holy Spirit or not. I do feel the Holy Spirit manifest himself in more ways than just giving us the Bible. He's got too many titles to do just that.
> John MacArthur said if people believe something for many years doesn't make it so. I would agree. I don't care if every Christian other than me believes differently from me. They could be wrong and I could be right. This is what John MacAuthur is saying why he did this conference. I don't agree with all of his beliefs but if he has the conviction to do it, he should do it regardless of the division it might cause. It would be just as wrong for him to remain silent as it would you talking about some of the "crazy stuff they do." It would be wrong for me to do this too but I probably have. I've kept quiet around my family about things just to keep peace so I am a hypocrite.



Pentecostal 100%   and like I said if it ain,t in the bible it is CRAZY.


----------



## clayservant

Holy laughter
drunk in the spirit 
falling out or over
snake handling

Not in the bible, not taught for the NEW TESTAMENT CHURCH.

= crazy


----------



## Mako22

He is a heretic who denies the blood of Jesus, a hyper Calvinist and a proponent of Lordship salvation. I don't believe he is my brother in Christ and instead is a tool of Satan.


----------



## centerpin fan

clayservant said:


> Holy laughter
> drunk in the spirit
> falling out or over
> snake handling



From what I've seen, this (along with the prosperity gospel) is MacArthur's focus.  It reminds me of Hank Hanegraaff's book _Christianity in Crisis_.


----------



## gemcgrew

Woodsman69 said:


> He is a heretic who denies the blood of Jesus


"For some strange reason people have accused me of denying the blood of Christ, which is not so. I affirm that a literal Jesus Christ who was man in every respect, 100 percent man yet God incarnate, died on the cross, shed His literal blood as a sacrifice for sin. I believe that and I believe that it was that sacrificial death of Christ on the cross that atoned for the sins of man and those who believe appropriate that atonement and receive eternal life through His death and resurrection and that's historic Christian theology." John MacArthur


Woodsman69 said:


> a hyper Calvinist and a proponent of Lordship salvation.


Mutually exclusive.


Woodsman69 said:


> I don't believe he is my brother in Christ and instead is a tool of Satan.


I can't imagine accusations from a self proclaimed racist and bigot will keep MacArthur up at night. But that is just my opinion.


----------



## clayservant

gordon 2 said:


> I'm not knowledgeable concerning JM, but I know that especially in California and other localized areas there is a problem with some said of the charismatic movement.
> 
> I know that some from the former Latter Rain movement have made the "summer camp styles" and youth ministry of that movement into a permanent (main) feature. There is nothing really wrong in this in itself, however if the leaders are flying on their own even a little bit or are in fact under a false spirit, the damage to the lambs can be tremendous.
> 
> Formula 1 said that it was possible to see where and worry where, "The wolves always gather the weak and tear them apart!" This fact to me talks of how people who orchestrate a cult proceed. In some places as I have said chrismatic ministry is totally focused on young people, by young people. If there is no accounting for sound ministry from the greater church then there is a problem. And the problem is damaged pilgrims--and eventually a damaged church.
> 
> There are many who have been called to be prophets and apostles( as a feature of the charismatic movement) from a false spirit and who will never submit to a prophet or an apostle greater than they are. And I have heard it said that people in a cult, often go from cult to cult, not cult to mainstream. It is a sad thing to know what should be a mature christian for his/her age still hold on from youth to the false calling of a false spirit. It is a sad thing to see someone contradict themselves from sentence to sentence, paragragh to paragraph, hour to hour, day to day, yr to yr. And this is the damage that lack of proper acountability in the church can do.
> 
> False spirits are everywhere. If they are inadvertantly carted on a mission to young people, no matter what denomination or movement, then their is going to be problems--for the lambs and eventually the sheep! and eventually the greater church itself. It is one thing for a person to go from a charismatic meeting into a mainstream congragation when refreshed in Christ, sparked in faith. It is another thing that same person come in a mainstream church with the motivations from a false spirit, a spirit falsely presented as in Christ-- and therefore of spirit not motivated in Christ.
> 
> I suspect that JM might be motivated ( cashing in) by this percieved need of correction, which is original to a pentecostal brother. ( Note that I'm not against or in condemnation of the charismatics. As a matter of fact, I think with proper authority the chrismatic movement is a genuine aspect of the church and ministry.)
> 
> ><iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/a5ZvPwFamqs?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe



Great video, I am shocked to see a lot of this trash in the charismatic churches, if it ever came to my church, either it would go or I would go.


----------



## Artfuldodger

clayservant said:


> So you either believe his way or you are goin to you know where, I pray in tongues , I have cast out demons, I lay hands on the sick and they recover, I have all my needs met and everything I want in life,  but this is of the devil he would tell you.........  he is walking on thin ice and is very close to doin this......
> /QUOTE]
> 
> Even though you use "I" it is understood the Holy Spirit is doing these things through you? Or does the Holy Spirit give you the power to do these things?
> I recall Jesus saying everything he was doing was actually from his Father or from the power of his Father.


----------



## Inthegarge

Wow......no wonder the Church is on the decline......If I don't have personal experience with an individual, I certainly wouldn't base anything on quotes taken out of context......JMHSO


----------



## gordon 2

Why do you say this tread is locked? Although... something is just not right with it.... my post to the tread is vanished, except...for Clayservant's quoting me. ???? Also I worked last nite and visited the site there and the post and from my work computor and from home computor the tread is not the same at all.???? Never seen that before.????


----------



## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> Why do you say this tread is locked? Although... something is just not right with it.... my post to the tread is vanished, except...for Clayservant's quoting me. ???? Also I worked last nite and visited the site there and the post and from my work computor and from home computor the tread is not the same at all.???? Never seen that before.????


I could not get it to load after he quoted you, even though there appeared to be a new post from user Inthegarage. The first page still does not fully load for me.

This is what happens when one makes light of MacArthur's ministry.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> I could not get it to load after he quoted you, even though there appeared to be a new post from user Inthegarage. The first page still does not fully load for me.
> 
> This is what happens when one makes light of MacArthur's ministry.





But really I see this tread differently if I use a different computor....? Never seen such a thing...! I have two  post, one from Intergarage and one from Artfuldodger after Clayservant.

MacArthur wan't he a general in the pacific campaign? Smoked a pipe, and said, "Old soldiers never die, they just fade away."

The only people I think that would mess  this tread up, although many could, are lawyers. They have a tendency to find cause for their coffers in the darnest things... but maybe not?


----------



## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> The only people I think that would mess  this tread up, although many could, are lawyers. They have a tendency to find cause for their coffers in the darnest things... but maybe not?


Perhaps, but I am thinking Rj had something to do with it. I bet his head wanted to explode when he read this thread.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I responded before "In the Garage" and was never able to see my response or inthegarage's.
In my response, I was asking Clayservant that although he did use "I", he did know that it was the work of the Holy Spirit. I was trying to get a feel from him how he thought the Holy Spirit did that? Was the gifts actually the Holy Spirit or did the Spirit give him those abilities. I reminded him about Jesus saying everything he did was from the Father or it was his Father's power.


----------



## hobbs27

Never heard of him.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> Formula 1 said that it was possible to see where and worry where, "The wolves always gather the weak and tear them apart!" [\QUOTE]
> 
> Brother Gordon, I named them wolves (yet they proclaim to be sheep).  It can be very deceiving can't it, especially so many who are looking for so much for they have so little.  Yet there is a real along with the counterfeit and one must have the wisdom to discern the difference. This is at least one of the reasons I personally value the scriptures so highly as it gives us many written tools to discern falsehoods that are obvious. Cessation is a falsehood (at least until Christ returns) as much as the video of the movement you posted is false.  I am not afraid to say that!
> 
> Everything that is true of the Power of the Holy Spirit and His genuine manifestations can be determined by one simple question, Do these events lead one to a transformed life in Jesus Christ through His Gospel and accomplish His purposes?  Much of the video you posted, possibly all of it, would fail that test.  Equally a failure is implied cessation that many determine from a few scriptures out of context, for God wants to do more and show Himself as He needs to reach into someone's life. He's God, He loves doing things for His own!
> 
> The sum of what I am saying is this(for everyone reading):  God wants to meet you where you are and be all you need Him to be in your life.  He will leave the 99 to find just 1!  He cares that much for you! And He will do what He believes necessary to reach you. For some, that could be a transforming encounter with the Holy Spirit's power (see Saul and Cornelius). For some, it could be the simple words of a preacher explaining the Scriptures (see Ethiopian eunuch) and you hear it just as if it is the mightly hand of the Spirit pouring a gift upon you (and it is just that).  I choose to do my best to accept both of these extremes because they are true, both to scritpure and experience! And want to allow my heavenly Father to use whatever He deems necessary to turn lives to faith in Jesus Christ.  I am confident He will do exactly that!
> 
> Remember this, If He does not move in the earth, you and I are still dead in our sins, as would every believer who reads this!  Think on that for a bit!
> 
> I'm going to end by shouting 'Hallelujah' and thanking God that He moved in my life!!!


----------



## centerpin fan

formula1 said:


> Cessation is a falsehood ...



Not according to many Southern Baptists:

_There is no official SBC view or stance on the issue.  If you polled SBC churches across the nation on the topic of "charismatic" practices you would likely find a variety of perspectives. Probably most believe that the "gift of tongues" as described in the Bible ceased upon the completion of the Bible. Some may view speaking in tongues as a spiritual gift given to some Christians enabling them to communicate the Gospel to foreign cultures in a language the speaker had not known previously.  A very small minority might accept what is commonly practiced today in charismatic churches as valid._

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#8


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



centerpin fan said:


> Not according to many Southern Baptists:
> 
> _There is no official SBC view or stance on the issue.  If you polled SBC churches across the nation on the topic of "charismatic" practices you would likely find a variety of perspectives. Probably most believe that the "gift of tongues" as described in the Bible ceased upon the completion of the Bible. Some may view speaking in tongues as a spiritual gift given to some Christians enabling them to communicate the Gospel to foreign cultures in a language the speaker had not known previously.  A very small minority might accept what is commonly practiced today in charismatic churches as valid._
> 
> http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/faqs.asp#8



I therefore side with the scriptures and accept my minority status in my own denomination! God bless!


----------



## centerpin fan

formula1 said:


> I therefore side with the scriptures and accept my minority status in my own denomination! God bless!



Fair enough.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

I'm Baptist, but count me in the minority also.


----------



## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> If you polled SBC churches across the nation on the topic of "_______________" practices you would likely find a variety of perspectives.



Fixed. Just fill in the blank with whatever you want.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Fixed. Just fill in the blank with whatever you want.



Understood.  As a former Southern Baptist, I'm well aware of their positions.


----------



## clayservant

I think we all were once southern baptist at one time...lol


----------



## centerpin fan

clayservant said:


> I think we all were once southern baptist at one time...lol


----------



## hummerpoo

Posts 58 thru 65 - Me Too.

CPF, do you ever sleep, or do you browse YouTube all night long?
Keep it up, you come up with some great stuff.


----------



## Ronnie T

clayservant said:


> you cannot lump all of the Spirit filled holy ghost people into one pile



This isn't directed directly to you 
Clay, but that sounds like a strange term to use to differentiate between groups of Christians.


----------



## Ronnie T

clayservant said:


> O Here are some more for you then....
> 
> KNOWING WHO I AM IN CHRIST
> I am complete in Him Who is the Head of all principality and power (Colossians 2:10).
> I am alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5).
> I am free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).
> I am far from oppression, and fear does not come near me (Isaiah 54:14).
> I am born of God, and the evil one does not touch me (1 John 5:18).
> I am holy and without blame before Him in love (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:16).
> I have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16; Philippians 2:5).
> I have the peace of God that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7).
> I have the Greater One living in me; greater is He Who is in me than he who is in the world (1 John 4:4).
> I have received the gift of righteousness and reign as a king in life by Jesus Christ (Romans 5:17).
> I have received the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Jesus, the eyes of my understanding being enlightened (Ephesians 1:17,18).
> I have received the power of the Holy Spirit to lay hands on the sick and see them recover, to cast out demons, to speak with new tongues. I have power over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means harm me (Mark 16:17,18; Luke 10:17,19).
> I have put off the old man and have put on the new man, which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of Him Who created me (Colossians 3:9,10).
> I have given, and it is given to me; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, men give into my bosom (Luke 6:38).
> 1
> I have no lack for my God supplies all of my need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus
> (Philippians 4:19).
> I can quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one with my shield of faith (Ephesians 6:16).
> I can do all things through Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:13).
> I show forth the praises of God Who has called me out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9).
> I am God’s childâŽ¯for I am born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, which lives and abides
> forever (1 Peter 1:23).
> I am God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10).
> I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
> I am a spirit beingâŽ¯alive to God (Romans 6:11;1 Thessalonians 5:23).
> I am a believer, and the light of the Gospel shines in my mind (2 Corinthians 4:4).
> I am a doer of the Word and blessed in my actions (James 1:22, 25).
> I am a joint-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17).
> I am more than a conqueror through Him Who loves me (Romans 8:37).
> I am an overcomer by the blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony (Revelation 12:11).
> I am a partaker of His divine nature (2 Peter 1:3,4).
> I am an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20).
> I am part of a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people (1 Peter 2:9).
> I am the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).
> 2
> I am the temple of the Holy Spirit; I am not my own (1 Corinthians 6:19).
> I am the head and not the tail; I am above only and not beneath (Deuteronomy 28:13).
> I am the light of the world (Matthew 5:14).
> I am His elect, full of mercy, kindness, humility, and longsuffering (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12).
> I am forgiven of all my sins and washed in the Blood (Ephesians 1:7).
> I am delivered from the power of darkness and translated into God’s kingdom (Colossians 1:13).
> I am redeemed from the curse of sin, sickness, and poverty (Deuteronomy 28:15-68; Galatians 3:13).
> I am firmly rooted, built up, established in my faith and overflowing with gratitude (Colossians 2:7).
> I am called of God to be the voice of His praise (Psalm 66:8; 2 Timothy 1:9).
> I am healed by the stripes of Jesus (Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24).
> I am raised up with Christ and seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 2:12.
> I am greatly loved by God (Romans 1:7; Ephesians 2:4; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4).
> I am strengthened with all might according to His glorious power (Colossians 1:11).
> I am submitted to God, and the devil flees from me because I resist him in the Name of Jesus (James 4:7).
> I press on toward the goal to win the prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward (Philippians 3:14).
> For God has not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, love, and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7).
> It is not I who live, but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:20).
> Copyright © 2008 Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc.
> 3
> 
> 
> And by the way......the devil does not like for us to know who WE ARE in christ.



Maybe you are, and maybe you are not.
.
God will know.
.


----------



## centerpin fan

hummerpoo said:


> CPF, do you ever sleep, or do you browse YouTube all night long?
> Keep it up, you come up with some great stuff.



Glad you like 'em.  My secret is a very good memory for movie/TV scenes.  BTW, you might like post 69 here:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=777065&page=2


----------



## clayservant

Ronnie T said:


> Maybe you are, and maybe you are not.
> .
> God will know.
> .



no maybe about it. it is GODS WORDS not mine.


----------



## BT Charlie

clayservant said:


> I would not walk across the street to hear what he has to say, his whole ministry is tearing down other Ministries. his has no power and I believe he is jealous of those that do. and while we are on this When has God ever said the gifts of the Spirit would only be a tease to those that need it? God did not heal people, and set people free, and raise the dead, just to show off his power, he did it to show US how to do it and he NEVER  SAID STOP..... the gifts are for today more than ever and with it comes power to show GODS power and bring glory to him. I don,t see how some of you can think God just came to earth to play with us for 33 years and do
> great things just to say na, na, na, na ,na  and stop it and say see what I can DO?........unreal people..God is the same yesterdat, Today and forever.




Artful dodger mentioned "MacArthur" in another forum. Glad I found this, which I will enjoy reading and testing.

My experience is it is a real personal faith builder when everyone says they believe the Bible, then they read it, and form a new church around this or that.  Jesus is Lord -- that is testimony that can get an amen from Gordo, Bama, Hobbs, me and others, right?

Focus on what is excellent.  Love one another.  Do not -- you got it, quarrel.

To Clay's perspective, I think the founder of my little church strain had some hippie roots.  He confessed Christ as his Lord and Savior, sat in some stiff church services, read about Christ and the Apostles, then looked around.  As I perceive Clay might...this fellow saw a disconnect between those lessons and what the modern church was satisfied doing.  "I gave up drugs, for this?"

Now I don't know if that story is true. If it is, I don't subscribe to this fellow's views on a number of levels.  God is not obliged to entertain you. The only thing He is obliged to do, the way I see it, is to send you to he77 if you've earned it. Moreover, He is glorified by your dam at ion, if such comes about.  Yet His mercies are so obvious and so immense, for each.  His love so obvious.  Who wouldn't want more of that?


----------



## BT Charlie

centerpin fan said:


> Allow me to quote Dr. Zaius from _Planet of the Apes_:
> 
> "Don't look for it ... You may not like what you'll find."




To your Dr. Zaius, I call...with Taylor: "It's a madhouse!"


----------



## BT Charlie

gordon 2 said:


> But really I see this tread differently if I use a different computor....
> 
> The only people I think that would mess  this tread up,
> although many could, are lawyers. They have a tendency to find cause for their coffers in the darnest things... but maybe not?



Eh? 

On a brief note:  When young, I loved to trap.  Did so into my 40's.  The prize catch in Montana was a North Dakota coyote.  It was the one with 3 paws gnawed off and one still in the trap.  Ever catch such a one?

Some of both pro Mac and con Mac arguments impress me.  Mac passes the test as a brother, do we all agree? I mean what is lacking, or what was added to defeat it?

The NT spells out how to deal with other brothers who offend you.  (Spoiler: it does not involve YouTube videos or other media events.) And are we not called to correct a brother -- GENTLY? So we do not share implicitly in our brother's sin?  Peter also proclaimed the Gospel boldly in perfect time... . So if this were handled differently, perhaps I would find much with which to agree.

Yet Formula, Clay, SemperFiDawg say it better than I about a heartfelt love of a ymighty God, and those who claim such gifts today.   I would reject too broad of brush stroke.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I don't know why but all of a sudden all of our threads have a common thread of  “Cessation ism” of the Holy Spirit.
I've never even heard of this until a few threads back on this forum.
There are various beliefs to exactly what has ceased if anything about the Holy Spirit from major gifts, healing miracles, interventions, guidance, help, and a host of other functions the Holy Spirit may or may not do.
When you really think about the Holy Spirit is God. When you say the Holy Spirit doesn't help cure someone, you are in affect saying God doesn't cure someone. When you say the Holy Spirit doesn't help you understand the Bible, you are saying God doesn't help.
Talk about total Free will, I'll bet the Elect believers believe the Holy Spirit does everything. 
It would appear to me personally that the Holy Spirit has ceased in his help. I'm reading Corinthians to help me get over these negative feelings about the Holy Spirit's help. Reason being there are too many different variation of beliefs in Bible interpretations to believe God has anything to do with it.
Hindus in India are cured just as Christians in America. People of various religions can put themselves into trances and call it a religious experience. You can take drugs and have a religious experience.
I'm hoping my study of Corinthians will change my mind about the Holy Spirit/God leaving us many years ago for the strange reason of a readable Bible suddenly appearing.


----------



## BT Charlie

Art, say it ain't so!  Could the Holy Spirit be revealing doubt in your heart?  Mr. Hobbs views the NT one way, Bama another. Does what you or they think about "cessation" alter one bit of Christ's finished work on the cross, His 100 percent payment of 100 percent of our debt? Nope.  Stand strong on what you know; don't sway in the wind in frustration.  Turn over all your doubts, emanating from your mere human desires and knowledge. (When you do it, let me know how you did it and I will try to follow!)

 This I believe:  if you were the only one whosoever would believe, Christ so loves you that He would have sweat blood and fulfilled the prophesies -- for you
 Art. Isn't that a Rock to build on?  Gordo -- you can criticize me for mixing and matching doctrines with each conflicting sentence .... I'm a leaky clay vessel, corrupt in and out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Art, say it ain't so!  Could the Holy Spirit be revealing doubt in your heart?  Mr. Hobbs views the NT one way, Bama another. Does what you or they think about "cessation" alter one bit of Christ's finished work on the cross, His 100 percent payment of 100 percent of our debt? Nope.  Stand strong on what you know; don't sway in the wind in frustration.  Turn over all your doubts, emanating from your mere human desires and knowledge. (When you do it, let me know how you did it and I will try to follow!)
> 
> This I believe:  if you were the only one whosoever would believe, Christ so loves you that He would have sweat blood and fulfilled the prophesies -- for you
> Art. Isn't that a Rock to build on?  Gordo -- you can criticize me for mixing and matching doctrines with each conflicting sentence .... I'm a leaky clay vessel, corrupt in and out.



I'm not losing my faith in God, just in my ability  to gain the knowledge needed to find the truth. Now some say this knowledge isn't needed. Others say it's everything. Everything to understanding the Bible. The Bible is everthing and the only thing. The Bible is  the only help we have from the Holy Spirit, who is God. The Bible is where we learn to love God, love others, forgive others, & learn obedience. The Bible is where we learn we must stand firm till the end.
These are the believers who like Mac.


----------



## Artfuldodger

My question to Mac would be, has God called his Spirit home? We know he called his Son home but how can he call his Spirit back to Heaven? Why would he want to? Is this Biblical? Who called us to God? Has God relieved the Holy Spirit and taken on the duties himself or has he just left everything up to the Bible and us?
Now I don't believe our salvation depends on these answers but I'm just curious. If I must stand firm till the end, it would be helpful  to know if I'll be receiving any help from God other than his written Word.
Isn't help from the Holy Spirit and help from God one in the same?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I gotta preach when the Holy Spirit say's preach.
How does God reveal his thoughts? 
1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us.

What does he bestow on us?
1 Corinthians 12:11 It is the one and only Spirit who distributes all these gifts. He alone decides which gift each person should have.


----------



## hummerpoo

LOL...Art, I honestly can't tell when you are simply stating both sides, the worldly view and the spiritual view, and when you have completed a decision making process.  I just keep praying that you will recognize that the Body of Christ, and everything connected to it, is spiritual.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> LOL...Art, I honestly can't tell when you are simply stating both sides, the worldly view and the spiritual view, and when you have completed a decision making process.  I just keep praying that you will recognize that the Body of Christ, and everything connected to it, is spiritual.



I keep seeing both views. Jesus as Savior is one view, Jesus as Lord is another view. I want God and his Son. I want God, Jesus as Lord & Savior, and the Holy Spirit.
I know what they all gave & or give.
What I'm still not clear on is what I must give. If the answer is nothing then it is finished.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I keep seeing both views. Jesus as Savior is one view, Jesus as Lord is another view. I want God and his Son. I want God, Jesus as Lord & Savior, and the Holy Spirit.
> I know what they all gave & or give.
> What I'm still not clear on is what I must give. If the answer is nothing then it is finished.



Perhaps it's not something or nothing but empty, as in empty vessel.  That would require that any junk would have to be removed.  Even that could be very difficult, like impossible, if we had to do it without help.


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## formula1

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> What I'm still not clear on is what I must give. If the answer is nothing then it is finished.



Art, your quote above made me think of this song.  I hope it ministers to you!


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## Artfuldodger

Like the old country song, I won't take less than your love!


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## hayseed_theology

So, how many folks have actually read_ Strange Fire_?

I found this review from Tom Schriener helpful: http://thegospelcoalition.org/book-reviews/review/strange_fire

I think a lot of John MacArthur.  I wish more pastors were committed to expository preaching like Johnny Mac.  No telling how many thousands of people have benefitted from his teaching ministry or how many pastors use his commentaries.

That being said.  I don't always agree with him.  I disagree with his strongly dispensational approach to the metanarrative of Scripture and his particularly Israel-centric hermeneutic.  I would also disagree with his very strong cessationist perspective.  I wish on this issue he was a bit more gracious.  It seems that he paints the entire charismatic movement with the same broad brush(I certainly wouldn't want to be lumped together with all other Baptists).  I know MacArthur respects some within the charismatic movement because he has invited a Reformed Charismatic to speak at his Shepherd's Conference in the past.


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## mtnwoman

clayservant said:


> O Here are some more for you then....
> 
> KNOWING WHO I AM IN CHRIST
> I am complete in Him Who is the Head of all principality and power (Colossians 2:10).
> I am alive with Christ (Ephesians 2:5).
> I am free from the law of sin and death (Romans 8:2).
> I am far from oppression, and fear does not come near me (Isaiah 54:14).
> I am born of God, and the evil one does not touch me (1 John 5:18).
> I am holy and without blame before Him in love (Ephesians 1:4; 1 Peter 1:16).
> I have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16; Philippians 2:5).
> I have the peace of God that passes all understanding (Philippians 4:7).
> I have the Greater One living in me; greater is He Who is in me than he who is in the world (1 John 4:4).
> I have received the gift of righteousness and reign as a king in life by Jesus Christ (Romans 5:17).
> I have received the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Jesus, the eyes of my understanding being enlightened (Ephesians 1:17,18).
> I have received the power of the Holy Spirit to lay hands on the sick and see them recover, to cast out demons, to speak with new tongues. I have power over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means harm me (Mark 16:17,18; Luke 10:17,19).
> I have put off the old man and have put on the new man, which is renewed in the knowledge after the image of Him Who created me (Colossians 3:9,10).
> I have given, and it is given to me; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, men give into my bosom (Luke 6:38).
> 1
> I have no lack for my God supplies all of my need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus
> (Philippians 4:19).
> I can quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one with my shield of faith (Ephesians 6:16).
> I can do all things through Christ Jesus (Philippians 4:13).
> I show forth the praises of God Who has called me out of darkness into His marvelous light (1 Peter 2:9).
> I am God’s childâŽ¯for I am born again of the incorruptible seed of the Word of God, which lives and abides
> forever (1 Peter 1:23).
> I am God’s workmanship, created in Christ unto good works (Ephesians 2:10).
> I am a new creature in Christ (2 Corinthians 5:17).
> I am a spirit beingâŽ¯alive to God (Romans 6:11;1 Thessalonians 5:23).
> I am a believer, and the light of the Gospel shines in my mind (2 Corinthians 4:4).
> I am a doer of the Word and blessed in my actions (James 1:22, 25).
> I am a joint-heir with Christ (Romans 8:17).
> I am more than a conqueror through Him Who loves me (Romans 8:37).
> I am an overcomer by the blood of the Lamb and the word of my testimony (Revelation 12:11).
> I am a partaker of His divine nature (2 Peter 1:3,4).
> I am an ambassador for Christ (2 Corinthians 5:20).
> I am part of a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a purchased people (1 Peter 2:9).
> I am the righteousness of God in Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21).
> 2
> I am the temple of the Holy Spirit; I am not my own (1 Corinthians 6:19).
> I am the head and not the tail; I am above only and not beneath (Deuteronomy 28:13).
> I am the light of the world (Matthew 5:14).
> I am His elect, full of mercy, kindness, humility, and longsuffering (Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12).
> I am forgiven of all my sins and washed in the Blood (Ephesians 1:7).
> I am delivered from the power of darkness and translated into God’s kingdom (Colossians 1:13).
> I am redeemed from the curse of sin, sickness, and poverty (Deuteronomy 28:15-68; Galatians 3:13).
> I am firmly rooted, built up, established in my faith and overflowing with gratitude (Colossians 2:7).
> I am called of God to be the voice of His praise (Psalm 66:8; 2 Timothy 1:9).
> I am healed by the stripes of Jesus (Isaiah 53:5; 1 Peter 2:24).
> I am raised up with Christ and seated in heavenly places (Ephesians 2:6; Colossians 2:12.
> I am greatly loved by God (Romans 1:7; Ephesians 2:4; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4).
> I am strengthened with all might according to His glorious power (Colossians 1:11).
> I am submitted to God, and the devil flees from me because I resist him in the Name of Jesus (James 4:7).
> I press on toward the goal to win the prize to which God in Christ Jesus is calling us upward (Philippians 3:14).
> For God has not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, love, and a sound mind (2 Timothy 1:7).
> It is not I who live, but Christ lives in me (Galatians 2:20).
> Copyright © 2008 Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc.
> 3
> 
> 
> And by the way......the devil does not like for us to know who WE ARE in christ.



Are you saying McArthur denies those scriptures? I guess I'm missing the point of that post.

I have heard a few messages by him, and they were pretty good. Heard he is a hyper Calvinist which I don't really go for so much, but never heard him teach/preach on it.


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