# silver lab



## folded77 (Sep 7, 2012)

was just wondering some of you guys opinions.  I have been offered a silver lab puppy for free and am thinking of getting it.Well the mom has papers but the dad doesn't but is pure lab,but that doesnt matter to me .my question is do any of yall hunt with them,wondering about the color.If i get it it is gonna be my duck partner.Just dont know if i should spend the money on college for the pup.or should get another color.I don't think it will be a problem,just wanting some opinions


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## emusmacker (Sep 7, 2012)

i'll take the pup if you don't want it.


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## ballgroundhound (Sep 7, 2012)

Heck ya man color is not an issue atleast to me a bond and trust is make him ur partner silver aint no brighter than gold


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## Vmarsh (Sep 7, 2012)

I would get another color. Real labs are black.


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## Wastin Bullets (Sep 7, 2012)

I would take it! I am getting a yellow lab when I go to get one though.


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## fatboy84 (Sep 8, 2012)

Get it and buy some no glare como paint at Home Depot.


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## JimDraper (Sep 8, 2012)

papers don't make a dog, the only thing i can tell you about silvers and i don't know why but they seem to be more hyper, i know two guys that have them.


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## levi5002 (Sep 8, 2012)

Vmarsh said:


> I would get another color. Real labs are black.


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## jeroush (Sep 21, 2012)

I have 2 silvers. They blend in perfect in the swamp. 


_Posted  from  Gon.com  App  for Android_


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## ThunderRoad (Sep 21, 2012)

Dont overthink it. You just want a dog then get it. If you want a retriever than get a black dog.


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## fscavs (Sep 21, 2012)

Do the parents hunt or at least show the instincts? If not, I'd pass.  The puppy is only as good as it's genes regardless of color.


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## vrooom (Sep 21, 2012)

I wouldn't get a dog that's been bred/crossbred/inbred for color.
Get a dog with health clearances and hunting/tested parents and you won't have as much to worry about


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## ryano (Sep 21, 2012)

fscavs said:


> Do the parents hunt or at least show the instincts? If not, I'd pass.  The puppy is only as good as it's genes regardless of color.



Sorry but I have to totally disagree.  The 10 month old CLF you see in my avatar is very "birdy" and is going to be one great hunting dog and is half way to her SHR title because of her trainer. NOT because of her genes.  Her mother or dad is nothing more than backyard pets and neither show hunting instincts.   No titles in her pedigree for at least 3 generations either.

A certain trainer on this board that does it for a living, explained it to me that its kinda like buying a lottery ticket.  Your chances of winning big are better with a 20 dollar ticket than they are a one dollar ticket but that doesnt mean a dollar ticket wont win big once in a while.

Do you increase your chances by buying a pup from "hunting stock" or one with many hunting titles in its pedigree?  Why absolutely. But that doesnt mean that pups that come from non hunting parents wont make good hunters.

JMHO.    That of course and a dollar will buy a soft drink.   Maybe I just got lucky


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## king killer delete (Sep 21, 2012)

*Your right papers dont make a dog.*



JimDraper said:


> papers don't make a dog, the only thing i can tell you about silvers and i don't know why but they seem to be more hyper, i know two guys that have them.


 Blood lines do. The only way to see where your dog comes from is the stud books( papers) Then you can get a dog and have some what of an Idea what you have. If your gona buy a pet go to the pound. you wana buy a hunting dog buy one from some one that has  dogs that are in FT or hunt test. Now that all being said if you hunt with some one and he has good dogs that you have seen work and hunt go for it other wise its a gamble at best. good Luck.


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## ryano (Sep 21, 2012)

killer elite said:


> . you wana buy a hunting dog buy one from some one that has  dogs that are in FT or hunt test. .



And at best that still guarantees absolutely NOTHING!


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## nhancedsvt (Sep 21, 2012)

ryano said:


> And at best that still guarantees absolutely NOTHING!



He had a dog that was 2 points away from being a FT champion. You know not what you speak.

Killer please excuse the gimp. He has a backyard inbred Alabama mutt.


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## humdandy (Sep 21, 2012)

ryano said:


> Sorry but I have to totally disagree.  The 10 month old CLF you see in my avatar is very "birdy" and is going to be one great hunting dog and is half way to her SHR title because of her trainer. NOT because of her genes.  Her mother or dad is nothing more than backyard pets and neither show hunting instincts.   No titles in her pedigree for at least 3 generations either.
> 
> A certain trainer on this board that does it for a living, explained it to me that its kinda like buying a lottery ticket.  Your chances of winning big are better with a 20 dollar ticket than they are a one dollar ticket but that doesnt mean a dollar ticket wont win big once in a while.
> 
> ...



I agree.  I've personally seen pedigree dogs that were crap.  However, this is unusual and not the norm.

I'm in the same boat as you ryano, my dogs don't have papers and came from two backyard labs.  So far they have been the two best labs I've ever owned.


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## ryano (Sep 21, 2012)

nhancedsvt said:


> He has a backyard inbred Alabama mutt.



that is being trained by a drunk jackleg, backyard trainer.

I really have no business even replying to the greatness that is Killer Elite.


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## Hooked On Quack (Sep 21, 2012)

nhancedsvt said:


> He had a dog that was 2 points away from being a FT champion. You know not what you speak.
> 
> Killer please excuse the gimp. He has a backyard inbred Alabama mutt.





ryano said:


> that is being trained by a drunk jackleg, backyard trainer.
> 
> I really have no business even replying to the greatness that is Killer Elite.


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## nhancedsvt (Sep 21, 2012)

ryano said:


> that is being trained by a drunk jackleg, backyard trainer.
> 
> I really have no business even replying to the greatness that is Killer Elite.



At least it's a lab and not a spranger...


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## king killer delete (Sep 21, 2012)

Just because a dog has papers does not mean anything ever seen a show dog. With the stud books You have an Idea of what you might get. I have some dogs that came out of backyards that became titled hunting dogs and I have seen dogs from two FCs  that would not pick up a bird. My wife and I sold about 170 lab puppys from Alaska to PR. Some people wanted pets and some wanted hunting dogs. Not all turned out of that Im sure but I had no complants when I sold dogs. I trained allot , and I did well. The man stated that that the Hunt test dogs and the FC gaurantees nothing is right. The last time I looked you gota have some smarts on the trainers behalf. What Im am telling you is that if you are going to pick out a hunting dog. Go look at whose who in the retreiver world. If you can afford it get you a puppy and do not make it a pet. If he does not make it get rid of him. Most folks let the kids and wife get attached and them if the dog does not work out they are stuck. If you have the money go buy an older dog that is a FT wash out. Then you have a dog with allot of training that is not going to make it in FT game. Now i will also go and say this. If you know of a good working dog or dogs that have a liter and you want to try one go for it. I have seen some great dogs that made it that had no background in the Fc or Hunt test world. It just as cheap to feed a dog that has papers as it is to feed one with no papers. It your choice. My last dog that I recently picked up is a beagle. No papers , not gona hunt and he loves all the family . He needed a home and I gave him one . My lab even likes him and she has papers.


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## ugabulldog56 (Sep 21, 2012)

JimDraper said:


> papers don't make a dog, the only thing i can tell you about silvers and i don't know why but they seem to be more hyper, i know two guys that have them.



That's because they're part Weimaraner.

Do your research, the silver gene comes from the Weimaraner, not the lab.  IMO, the dog is a mutt and was bred for color.  Could it hunt?  Yes.  Will it dilute the labrador breed even more if bred? Yes.

With that said, this topic has been debated several times on this forum.  Use the search box to find them, actually lots of good info on them.


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## Turkey Trax (Sep 21, 2012)

save your $ buy the best breeding you can afford. then send it off to school. go to RTF there are LOTS of litters and/or litters to come listed in their classifieds.


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## Joe Overby (Sep 21, 2012)

ugabulldog56 said:


> That's because they're part Weimaraner.
> 
> Do your research, the silver gene comes from the Weimaraner, not the lab.  IMO, the dog is a mutt and was bred for color.  Could it hunt?  Yes.  Will it dilute the labrador breed even more if bred? Yes.
> 
> With that said, this topic has been debated several times on this forum.  Use the search box to find them, actually lots of good info on them.



No they're not.  Do YOUR research.  Its a recessive genetic mutation found in all colors. There is no Weim in them.  Is it inbred??  Absolutely.  Even more than most because of small numbers out there.  That said, I agree with TT.  Buy the best bred dog you can possibly afford...wait,  no...scratch that.  Go to college.  Graduate.  Get a good job and then buy the best bred dog you can afford.  My .02.


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## Turkey Trax (Sep 21, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> No they're not.  Do YOUR research.  Its a recessive genetic mutation found in all colors. There is no Weim in them.  Is it inbred??  Absolutely.  Even more than most because of small numbers out there.  That said, I agree with TT.  Buy the best bred dog you can possibly afford...wait,  no...scratch that.  Go to college.  Graduate.  Get a good job and then buy the best bred dog you can afford.  My .02.



i think he was talking about sending the dog off to "college"...training.


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## king killer delete (Sep 21, 2012)

*x3x3x3*



Turkey Trax said:


> save your $ buy the best breeding you can afford. then send it off to school. go to RTF there are LOTS of litters and/or litters to come listed in their classifieds.


good direction.


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## tgw925 (Sep 21, 2012)

I hunt with a litter from boomer, yes he is a black lab and is a great retriever...still color is not a big issue.


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## emusmacker (Sep 21, 2012)

I hunt with a buddy that has a chocolate lab that stays in the house and rides in the front of the truck. and will get the birds all day long. Also he minds very well.

I know this isn't a popular comment, but why does it matter if the dog is a champion or not?  I want a companion that will be my best friend and retrieve ducks too. You can have both. Ask Boudreaux about his dog Dewey.


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## Nimrod71 (Sep 21, 2012)

I have never seen a silver lab.  would someone post a picture.  All the labs I have seen have been black, yellow or brown.  I have seen yellows that were so light they looked white, but they came from black and yellow parents.  And papers don't make a dog.  The best lab I have ever had was a back yard dog with no papers.  This dog was running, flushing and retreiveing pheasants at 11 months and doves at 6 months and ducks at 12 months.  I had her for 14 years and there is no telling the number of pheasants, ducks, quail, doves and squirrels she retreived.


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## ryano (Sep 21, 2012)

Nimrod71 said:


> I have never seen a silver lab.  would someone post a picture.  All the labs I have seen have been black, yellow or brown.  I have seen yellows that were so light they looked white, but they came from black and yellow parents.  And papers don't make a dog.  The best lab I have ever had was a back yard dog with no papers.  This dog was running, flushing and retreiveing pheasants at 11 months and doves at 6 months and ducks at 12 months.  I had her for 14 years and there is no telling the number of pheasants, ducks, quail, doves and squirrels she retreived.


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## ryano (Sep 22, 2012)

emusmacker said:


> I hunt with a buddy that has a chocolate lab that stays in the house and rides in the front of the truck. .



Ha, that sounds like my dog. She was raised from 7 weeks old up until now a house dog and rides in the front of my truck.

She is in training now and is outside most of the time and rides in a dog box to the training fields but when I have her, she is inside full time........I cant even have an outside dog where I live.

She will never be a champion anything but I think shes gonna make a good hunting dog. She didnt come from champion bloodline either and her parents are not hunters.  Im gonna get her Started title but my wallet wont really let me go any further with that and hunt too.

I too wanted a companion that is also a good hunting dog.  In fact, she will be dual trained in service work to be my assistant dog and will be going about everywhere I go one day.


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## emusmacker (Sep 22, 2012)

I don't understand why people think you can't have a hunting dog and a "pet" at the same time.

My dad grew up hunting quail and trained his own dogs. They were all huting machines when they were hunting but when they were home, they were pets that my brother and I used to "ride" like a horse.  He would come home from work and they would wait till he got out then he would play with em and wrestle with em.  My mama used to tell me that before I was born, his dogs was like his kids. He played with em, took places, let em ride in the front. His dogs loved him and even defended him once.  

So yes, you can have a pet and a hubnting dog all in one. To me that makes it more special.


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## fish hawk (Sep 22, 2012)

I had a feeling the thread was gonna take this direction,when I first read it!!!


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## vrooom (Sep 22, 2012)

emusmacker said:


> I don't understand why people think you can't have a hunting dog and a "pet" at the same time.
> 
> My dad grew up hunting quail and trained his own dogs. They were all huting machines when they were hunting but when they were home, they were pets that my brother and I used to "ride" like a horse.  He would come home from work and they would wait till he got out then he would play with em and wrestle with em.  My mama used to tell me that before I was born, his dogs was like his kids. He played with em, took places, let em ride in the front. His dogs loved him and even defended him once.
> 
> So yes, you can have a pet and a hubnting dog all in one. To me that makes it more special.



Nobody on this thread has said that you can't have a hunting dog that's a pet.  You're ranting at nobody.
What people ARE saying, and quite clearly, is that if you want a GOOD or GREAT hunting dog, you greatly improve your chances of having one if it comes from a quality breeding.  Is it possible to have a great hunter from a backyard breeder?  Yes, but it seems that the concensus is that to stack the odds in your favor and make things easier for yourself, get a pup from proven bloodlines.  But nobody's saying you can't have a pet that hunts.


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## Turkey Trax (Sep 22, 2012)

vrooom said:


> Nobody on this thread has said that you can't have a hunting dog that's a pet.  You're ranting at nobody.
> What people ARE saying, and quite clearly, is that if you want a GOOD or GREAT hunting dog, you greatly improve your chances of having one if it comes from a quality breeding.  Is it possible to have a great hunter from a backyard breeder?  Yes, but it seems that the concensus is that to stack the odds in your favor and make things easier for yourself, get a pup from proven bloodlines.  But nobody's saying you can't have a pet that hunts.




yep...not sure where that guys rant came from.


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## Folsom (Sep 22, 2012)

Turkey Trax said:


> yep...not sure where that guys rant came from.



He seems to always go against the grain........


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 22, 2012)

fatboy84 said:


> Get it and buy some no glare como paint at Home Depot.



You made me spit spaghetti all over my computer...


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## emusmacker (Sep 22, 2012)

Not referring to anyone in this thread. But I have heard it said numerous times that you either have a hunting dog or you have a pet, you can't have both.

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I wasn't talking about anyone that has posted on this thread. But Vroom, there are folks out there in the dog world that thinks and says this. Just ranting on what I've heard from SOME FOLKS.


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## Nimrod71 (Sep 27, 2012)

I am a dog man.  I have had dogs for 55 years.  Hunting dogs and pets.  I had 35 dogs at one time, 34 beagles and 1 black lab.  The one thing I can say that is law, you can train a dog to handle, you can't train a dog to hunt.  By this I mean the hunt must be in the dog from his genes.  Genes come from parents and bloodline.  Both of these can be from AKC Registered or backyard dogs.  I have registered that were great dogs and I have had them that didn't make it as hunters.  I have had mixed backyard dogs that made great hunters and others that didn't.  I have learned to look at the bloodlines as best you can.  It is easy with registered, you can just order a pedagree and hope it is correct.  Backyard dogs you can look at parents and hunt with them and check where the parents came from, more leg and phone work.

As for hunting dogs and pets.  The problem I have seen with that is some dogs can get to be more pet than hunter and will want to walk with the hunter instead of ranging out and working for game.

But in the end it is what ever makes you happy.  Some want fully broke dogs and talk down others.  Others are just glad their dogs will find a bird and retrieve.

No matter what you have, love them and they will love you.


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## vrooom (Sep 28, 2012)

emusmacker said:


> Not referring to anyone in this thread. But I have heard it said numerous times that you either have a hunting dog or you have a pet, you can't have both.
> 
> Sorry if I wasn't clear on that. I wasn't talking about anyone that has posted on this thread. But Vroom, there are folks out there in the dog world that thinks and says this. Just ranting on what I've heard from SOME FOLKS.



So to be clear, you simply wanted somewhere to have a nice, inconsequential rant.  Fair enough


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## gobbler1 (Sep 28, 2012)

Why do you think that there are no silver labs in hunting shows or srs. Because they are a good lap dog that's it. Once you go black you never go back and that saying is true in labs.


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## Folsom (Sep 28, 2012)

gobbler1 said:


> Why do you think that there are no silver labs in hunting shows or srs. Because they are a good lap dog that's it. Once you go black you never go back and that saying is true in labs.



What color won the nationals this past year??

This is how I look at it, buying a lab pup is a lot like buying a lottery ticket. You can buy that one or two dollar ticket and have a slim margin of winning big, but you can. Buy the 20$ ticket and you have a lot better chance of hitting it big. Now with that in mind you could get losers with both, but you better your odds with the $20 ticket (dog put of a proven pedigree).


O and Vroom that was hilarious, I don't know the guy but dang he seems like the most negative person ever.


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## ngaduck (Sep 28, 2012)

Folsom said:


> What color won the nationals this past year??



Open or Am?


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## Folsom (Sep 28, 2012)

Am...


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## ngaduck (Sep 28, 2012)

Not any of the colors I have.


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## Folsom (Sep 28, 2012)

maybe you need to go shopping... My little special yella is back on top of his game and should do well the rest of the fall, until we detrain once season comes in.


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## ryano (Sep 28, 2012)

Folsom said:


> This is how I look at it, buying a lab pup is a lot like buying a lottery ticket. You can buy that one or two dollar ticket and have a slim margin of winning big, but you can. Buy the 20$ ticket and you have a lot better chance of hitting it big. Now with that in mind you could get losers with both, but you better your odds with the $20 ticket (dog put of a proven pedigree).



hmmm, well I wasnt gonna call out any names in this thread but........



ryano said:


> A certain trainer on this board that does it for a living, explained it to me that its kinda like buying a lottery ticket.  Your chances of winning big are better with a 20 dollar ticket than they are a one dollar ticket but that doesnt mean a dollar ticket wont win big once in a while.



I bought the dollar ticket and while I dont think she will win big, I got lucky and done ok I think    Im happy anyway!


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## Skyjacker (Sep 28, 2012)

Don't get me started. It's a cross breed between a Weimaraner and a lab.  It's genetically impossible for a lab to be silver.  And for what it's worth, I own a Labrador (in my avatar) and a Weimaraner. Theyre both great dogs,but there is no such thing as a silver lab. Its a designer breed sold by snake oil salesman.

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html


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## Skyjacker (Sep 29, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> No they're not.  Do YOUR research.  Its a recessive genetic mutation found in all colors. There is no Weim in them.  Is it inbred??  Absolutely.  Even more than most because of small numbers out there.  That said, I agree with TT.  Buy the best bred dog you can possibly afford...wait,  no...scratch that.  Go to college.  Graduate.  Get a good job and then buy the best bred dog you can afford.  My .02.



I have, and you are wrong. See the link in my post above.


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## nhancedsvt (Sep 29, 2012)

Skyjacker said:


> Don't get me started. It's a cross breed between a Weimaraner and a lab.  It's genetically impossible for a lab to be silver.  And for what it's worth, I own a Labrador (in my avatar) and a Weimaraner. Theyre both great dogs,but there is no such thing as a silver lab. Its a designer breed sold by snake oil salesman.
> 
> http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/silverlabs.html





Skyjacker said:


> I have, and you are wrong. See the link in my post above.



I don't think I would go calling the likes of Mr. Overby wrong based on one website that you get from a search of Google. Like you I also did my research. I went to Google, typed in "silver lab" and read the first topic. Now I'm an expert. Based on my research, you sir, are wrong.

http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm

Pay special close attention to the DNA tests described under the sub-heading "Are silver labs purebred labrador retrievers?"

Also my information comes from the first website returned on a Google search, yours from the fifth. That automatically makes my source more credible than yours.


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## Skyjacker (Sep 29, 2012)

nhancedsvt said:


> I don't think I would go calling the likes of Mr. Overby wrong based on one website that you get from a search of Google. Like you I also did my research. I went to Google, typed in "silver lab" and read the first topic. Now I'm an expert. Based on my research, you sir, are wrong.
> 
> http://www.silverlabs.com/controversy.htm
> 
> ...




I've seen that website. Those people are snake oil salesman.  I'd trust the biologist over a designer dog breeder website. In fact the article I link disputes all the supposed genetic mapping Bull that your page is trying to pass off as factual proof.  It's not, it is smoke and mirrors to dupe people into believing its a lab. Those dogs became silver because they're a mixed breed of a Weimaraner.


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## Joe Overby (Sep 29, 2012)

Ok, without further derailing this thread get whatever color you like.  Ya'll can argue pedigreed vs backyard bred all day long but the numbers speak for themselves.  There are more dogs with good pedigrees containing performance titles doing well in the field and on the line than the ones without said titles.  "you gotta start somewhere" and "mom and dad were good hunters" and "its just a meat dog" are the most common excuses used to cover up a poorly bred, poorly trained dog.  I see these dogs day in, day out.  It's frustrating for me as a trainer and even more frustrating for an owner who doesn't get what they ultimately want.  You can make a dog do anything with enough pressure but you cant make him want to.  This dog is an investment.  The initial cost of the pup or "initial investment" is the smallest, most inconsequential cost of owning the dog.  You are making a commitment to this dog for the next 10-15 years...vet bills, food, training, doggy supplies...i promise you it is WAAAAYYYY more than the $1000 commonly shelled out for well bred pups these days.  So you can hedge your bet with the best bred pup you can afford or you can go to Vegas and lay it on the roulette wheel.  It's your choice, your money, your time, and your perceived level of performance expectation.  
Skyjacker, since I am obviously ignorant and you are the resident forum genetics expert, explain to me where chocolates came from.  Wasn't that long ago they were a "designer" color marketed by "snake oil salesmen", inbred to the point of health issues, deformities, and poor field performance.  Obviously, they must've crossed a yellow with Chesapeake to get the color...just sayin.  Remember, its on the internet so it HAS to be correct information.  Believe what you want, buy what you want...I really dont care, but don't try and prove me wrong with ONE website with questionable credibility.


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## Skyjacker (Sep 29, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> Ok, without further derailing this thread get whatever color you like.  Ya'll can argue pedigreed vs backyard bred all day long but the numbers speak for themselves.  There are more dogs with good pedigrees containing performance titles doing well in the field and on the line than the ones without said titles.  "you gotta start somewhere" and "mom and dad were good hunters" and "its just a meat dog" are the most common excuses used to cover up a poorly bred, poorly trained dog.  I see these dogs day in, day out.  It's frustrating for me as a trainer and even more frustrating for an owner who doesn't get what they ultimately want.  You can make a dog do anything with enough pressure but you cant make him want to.  This dog is an investment.  The initial cost of the pup or "initial investment" is the smallest, most inconsequential cost of owning the dog.  You are making a commitment to this dog for the next 10-15 years...vet bills, food, training, doggy supplies...i promise you it is WAAAAYYYY more than the $1000 commonly shelled out for well bred pups these days.  So you can hedge your bet with the best bred pup you can afford or you can go to Vegas and lay it on the roulette wheel.  It's your choice, your money, your time, and your perceived level of performance expectation.
> Skyjacker, since I am obviously ignorant and you are the resident forum genetics expert, explain to me where chocolates came from.  Wasn't that long ago they were a "designer" color marketed by "snake oil salesmen", inbred to the point of health issues, deformities, and poor field performance.  Obviously, they must've crossed a yellow with Chesapeake to get the color...just sayin.  Remember, its on the internet so it HAS to be correct information.  Believe what you want, buy what you want...I really dont care, but don't try and prove me wrong with ONE website with questionable credibility.



You have yet to question that website's credibility.  In fact, that particular article has a ton of credibility since it was written by a molecular biologist. Or did you not notice that?

Labs came from Newfoundlands. Newfoundlands had chocolate colors.  Silver though was not one.

I agree with the rest of your post though except the part where you defend silver labs.  It may be more lab than weimaraner, But compared to the recognized colors, it's a lot smaller percentage of lab blood.


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## labradoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Skyjacker said:


> I agree with the rest of your post though except the part where you defend silver labs.  It may be more lab than weimaraner, But compared to the recognized colors, it's a lot smaller percentage of lab blood.



so when you embreed two chocolate "labs" to throw silver you take away percentages of lab blood? hmm.


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## Skyjacker (Sep 29, 2012)

labradoodle said:


> so when you embreed two chocolate "labs" to throw silver you take away percentages of lab blood? hmm.



Already shown to be incorrect. Read the article by the biologist.  Two chocolates cannot Produce "silver" without another breed being introduced into the bloodline, in this case more than likely a Weimaraner.  Pretty easy read.


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## Folsom (Sep 29, 2012)

ryano said:


> hmmm, well I wasnt gonna call out any names in this thread but........
> 
> 
> 
> I bought the dollar ticket and while I dont think she will win big, I got lucky and done ok I think    Im happy anyway!



ha ha sorry ryano must have skipped over your post when reading

it be true though.

PS and I would say you scratched off a winner with Miss Allie!


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## labradoodle (Sep 29, 2012)

Skyjacker said:


> Already shown to be incorrect. Read the article by the biologist.  Two chocolates cannot Produce "silver" without another breed being introduced into the bloodline, in this case more than likely a Weimaraner.  Pretty easy read.



so Cesar is the sire to this doberman a charolais?


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## nhancedsvt (Sep 30, 2012)

Skyjacker said:


> I've seen that website. Those people are snake oil salesman.  I'd trust the biologist over a designer dog breeder website. In fact the article I link disputes all the supposed genetic mapping Bull that your page is trying to pass off as factual proof.  It's not, it is smoke and mirrors to dupe people into believing its a lab. Those dogs became silver because they're a mixed breed of a Weimaraner.



Skyjacker,

Are you familiar enough with genetic theories to read an actual article on genetics? I am, but didn't post it first because most wouldn't understand it. And the truth shall set you free.

http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm


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## Joe Overby (Sep 30, 2012)

Skyjacker said:


> You have yet to question that website's credibility.  In fact, that particular article has a ton of credibility since it was written by a molecular biologist. Or did you not notice that?
> 
> Labs came from Newfoundlands. Newfoundlands had chocolate colors.  Silver though was not one.
> 
> I agree with the rest of your post though except the part where you defend silver labs.  It may be more lab than weimaraner, But compared to the recognized colors, it's a lot smaller percentage of lab blood.



No, they did not come from Newfoundlands.  Again, you are wrong.  I am not defending silver labs.  I do not agree with breeding only for color.  In doing so one is not breeding for the betterment of the breed.  However, I disagree with you and your claim that they are part wiem.  Through genetic mapping, parentage can be traced and linked to puppies.  That said, NO genetic testy has ever linked a weim to a silver.  Further, the AKC recognizes the silver as a chocolate.  How could this be if silvers are as you say a mixed breed as the AKC does not recognize mixed breeds??  

If you wanna know where chocolates come from read this.  
http://www.lorkenfarms.com/labrador Retriever history.htm

Ignorance is bliss......


----------



## Turkey Trax (Sep 30, 2012)

Just get a boykin and don't worry about the color......


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## Skyjacker (Sep 30, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> No, they did not come from Newfoundlands.  Again, you are wrong.  I am not defending silver labs.  I do not agree with breeding only for color.  In doing so one is not breeding for the betterment of the breed.  However, I disagree with you and your claim that they are part wiem.  Through genetic mapping, parentage can be traced and linked to puppies.  That said, NO genetic testy has ever linked a weim to a silver.  Further, the AKC recognizes the silver as a chocolate.  How could this be if silvers are as you say a mixed breed as the AKC does not recognize mixed breeds??
> 
> If you wanna know where chocolates come from read this.
> http://www.lorkenfarms.com/labrador Retriever history.htm
> ...



So in your opinion, silver labs were never mixed with a Weimaraner?  I didn't see anything about silver "labs" in the article.


----------



## Skyjacker (Sep 30, 2012)

nhancedsvt said:


> Skyjacker,
> 
> Are you familiar enough with genetic theories to read an actual article on genetics? I am, but didn't post it first because most wouldn't understand it. And the truth shall set you free.
> 
> http://labbies.com/genetics2.htm



Ok I've read the article.  It's interesting, but It still didn't change my opinion. A silver lab is as much a lab as a labradoodle in my opinion. In fact the article linked by your page even states the silver color was " introduced". 

It seems the argument is being made that because of interbreeding of labs before they were a recognized breed, it could have produced then a silver trait.  But the problem with that is the additional article says that the silver trait would have been more likely to show itself then as opposed to 75 years later.  That's the brunt of it.  So if you believe in fairies and wizardry, I suppose you can also believe that the silver trait in Labradors are part of the original breed standard as opposed to interbreeding years later.

As for the silver being closely associated with chocolates. Chocolates have the recessive gene, which is why they were chosen for interbreeding with weims. The argument that chocolates weren't recognized either is moot for the silver lab argument. Chocolates were finally recognized because there were "liver" colored labs produced from the very first breeders of recognized labs.


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## king killer delete (Sep 30, 2012)

What does the  breed standard say for breed 108 Labrador retreiver?


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## king killer delete (Sep 30, 2012)

Now that is the AKC. What does the kennel club , British breed standard and the CKC Breed standard.  These breed standards are what defines a Labrador Retreiver. Not some web site.


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## Joe Overby (Sep 30, 2012)

Skyjacker said:


> So in your opinion, silver labs were never mixed with a Weimaraner?  I didn't see anything about silver "labs" in the article.



Thats right.  No, the point was that the lab was actually a St. Johns Dog from newfoundland, NOT a newfoundland dog.  AND, the chocos have been around since the breed originated in the early 1800's.  The color variations you are seeing in the "designer" colors are simply genetic flaws.  Irresponsible breeding has continued this trait over the lust for money.  Frankly, the color variations have been around for many, many years it just had not been marketed nor was it so prevalent it was actually bred for.  The AKC has been recognizing color variations in yellows ranging from "white" to "fox red" for years.  Breed standard doesn't recognize a "dudley" or a lack of pigmentation in the nose and around the eyes in yellows.  A true "champagne" is a dudley with an odd yellowish color NOT containing any red down the back and little to no shade change down the sides.  Point is, color variations in all colors have been around for many, many years...one VERY prominent FT stud is well known for throwing chocos with a VERY "ashy" colored coat.  The stud is black and it doesnt matter whether he is mated to a choco female or a choco factored black.  It is simply a recessive genetic "flaw" that stupid people are willing to pay more money for.  Further, they have (as a whole) very, very, very little by way of performance titles in their pedigrees furthering my argument for a more proven line of dogs.  The color doesn't bother me, the weakness of pedigree, and the irresponsible breeding fostering a "fad" for off colored dogs does.  But lets not jump on an unfounded argument bandwagon because "its the only dog with that color that could've caused this".  That argument is ignorant, and un-provable.


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## folded77 (Sep 30, 2012)

these silver labs weren't intentinal,or breed for the color,was just 4 of them out of 10 pups that came from a choclate and a black. Still not sure If I can afford to make the investment needed for a good dog yet.


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## Folsom (Sep 30, 2012)

I just put a deposit down on a "fawn" colored lab......


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## Joe Overby (Sep 30, 2012)

folded77 said:


> these silver labs weren't intentinal,or breed for the color,was just 4 of them out of 10 pups that came from a choclate and a black. Still not sure If I can afford to make the investment needed for a good dog yet.



The original investment, or purchase of the pup, is the least expensive part of the journey.  I know that "high" price of "good" dogs can be intimidating at first but when factored into the total cost of training, vet bills, food, and other "necessities" the purchase price becomes a very small, inconsequential part of the equation.  When factored over the life of the dog it becomes an even smaller variable.  Get the best dog you can "afford", pay close attention to ALL important health certifications (hips, elbows, eye cerfs, EIC and CNM status, and history of allergies and arthritis in BOTH of the parents) and enjoy the ride.  In the end, you will be happy you did.  There are many "good" breedings out there that aren't so financially "daunting" you just have to do your research and look hard.  Let me know if I can be of any help in finding one for you.  I hear of several every week being in the business.


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## Skyjacker (Sep 30, 2012)

Joe Overby said:


> Thats right.  No, the point was that the lab was actually a St. Johns Dog from newfoundland, NOT a newfoundland dog.  AND, the chocos have been around since the breed originated in the early 1800's.  The color variations you are seeing in the "designer" colors are simply genetic flaws.  Irresponsible breeding has continued this trait over the lust for money.  Frankly, the color variations have been around for many, many years it just had not been marketed nor was it so prevalent it was actually bred for.  The AKC has been recognizing color variations in yellows ranging from "white" to "fox red" for years.  Breed standard doesn't recognize a "dudley" or a lack of pigmentation in the nose and around the eyes in yellows.  A true "champagne" is a dudley with an odd yellowish color NOT containing any red down the back and little to no shade change down the sides.  Point is, color variations in all colors have been around for many, many years...one VERY prominent FT stud is well known for throwing chocos with a VERY "ashy" colored coat.  The stud is black and it doesnt matter whether he is mated to a choco female or a choco factored black.  It is simply a recessive genetic "flaw" that stupid people are willing to pay more money for.  Further, they have (as a whole) very, very, very little by way of performance titles in their pedigrees furthering my argument for a more proven line of dogs.  The color doesn't bother me, the weakness of pedigree, and the irresponsible breeding fostering a "fad" for off colored dogs does.  But lets not jump on an unfounded argument bandwagon because "its the only dog with that color that could've caused this".  That argument is ignorant, and un-provable.



The AKC doesn't set the standards. Continuing to reference them is hurting your viewpoint.  AKC dishes out papers. They dont set the standard.  Find out who does and let me know what you find out about their opinion on silvers.  Some people I guess just want to believe in fairies instead of a biologist that shows genetically speaking, how a silver is impossible unless crossbreed. 

Having owned both weimaraners and labs, I have scanned tons of "silver lab" breeders websites, and just my personal observation, it's pretty darn obvious those dogs were crossbreed with weimaraners, some much more than others.

And don't get me wrong... I'm not dissing the breed. They may be awesome dogs.  But they're more on the same level as labradoodles than they are labs.


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## king killer delete (Oct 1, 2012)

Weinaraners, poodles , goldes, flatcoats Boykins and labs have a written breed standard. Now with DNA we know what is a pure bred dog and a cross bred dog. I love dogs all kind and types. If Your dog hunts for you thats great. I once saw a bull mastiff retreive a pintail in South Korea. He was a great hunting dog. But he was not a Labrador retreiver. It goes back to the stud book. It aint about papers its about the AKC,UKC,CKC, and The British kennel clubs stud books. This is history and its the foundation of our modern hunting dogs. King buck was a lab. Honcho was a lab. Snake eyes and his daddy Dude were labs. Top Brass cotton was a Golden. Pure bred, documented with papers. The only other folks that have done it the right is the Boykin folks and guess what they have a stud book to. I did not read this on the internet , I read it in books cause we did not have the internet back in the day.


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## zzweims (May 17, 2013)

Every other year or so, I get calls from chocolate lab owners wanting to breed to my weims to make a quick buck on silver labs.

Regardless of what you believe--mutt or mutation--at least 'some' of them are weim crosses.  And *if* some of them are mutations, why would you want a dog with a mutation?  Stick with the basics: black, yellow or chocolate.  And if you want to hedge your bet, go black. (there are a lot more of them)


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## king killer delete (May 17, 2013)

*Thats a fact*



ThunderRoad said:


> Dont overthink it. You just want a dog then get it. If you want a retriever than get a black dog.


 Black dog all the way.


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## Joe Overby (May 17, 2013)

You can go black....but you'll be playin second fiddle....


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## Joe Overby (May 17, 2013)

BTW, Sky hacker is still wrong........


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## king killer delete (May 17, 2013)

*Nothin wrong with brown dogs.*



Joe Overby said:


> You can go black....but you'll be playin second fiddle....


 They just aint black!


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## Millcreekfarms (May 17, 2013)

I always wondered how you register silvers when akc only recognizes black,yellow and chocolate as lab colors


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## Joe Overby (May 17, 2013)

killer elite said:


> They just aint black!



NO.....they're brown.....which makes them better.....
Killer, seriously, I don't give a dang what color they are if they can do the work...just have a special place in my heart for the brown puppies....especially the ones who consistently beat the black ones!!!!!!!!!!


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## king killer delete (May 17, 2013)

*Joe*



Joe Overby said:


> NO.....they're brown.....which makes them better.....
> Killer, seriously, I don't give a dang what color they are if they can do the work...just have a special place in my heart for the brown puppies....especially the ones who consistently beat the black ones!!!!!!!!!!


The funny thing is the dog does not know what color he is. You know a NFC will turn over a trash can and eat out of it just like a stray. I was jerkin your chain. I don't care what color the dog is. A good dog is a good dog.


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## Joe Overby (May 17, 2013)

Yup Yup!!!!! Truer words have never been spoken!!!!!!!!!!!


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## king killer delete (May 18, 2013)

One of the best labs I ever had . Had a good size white spot on his chest a several toes that were white and he was a brown dog.


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## macondaly (May 18, 2013)

killer elite said:


> One of the best labs I ever had . Had a good size white spot on his chest a several toes that were white and he was a brown dog.



Killer you and Joe probably already know this but white markings on a Lab are called Bolo marks. They have been traced to and named for a common ancestor, Bachory Bolo, born in 1915. I've heared that Grady throws pups with Bolo marks. He ain't silver but he has been known to throw great pups, and he's got papers!


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## king killer delete (May 18, 2013)

*Yes sir I know the breed standard.*



macondaly said:


> Killer you and Joe probably already know this but white markings on a Lab are called Bolo marks. They have been traced to and named for a common ancestor, Bachory Bolo, born in 1915. I've heared that Grady throws pups with Bolo marks. He ain't silver but he has been known to throw great pups, and he's got papers!



This one came from 2 blacks and was an AKC master Hunter.


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## bander_TC50 (May 21, 2013)

killer elite said:


> Just because a dog has papers does not mean anything ever seen a show dog. With the stud books You have an Idea of what you might get. I have some dogs that came out of backyards that became titled hunting dogs and I have seen dogs from two FCs  that would not pick up a bird. My wife and I sold about 170 lab puppys from Alaska to PR. Some people wanted pets and some wanted hunting dogs. Not all turned out of that Im sure but I had no complants when I sold dogs. I trained allot , and I did well. The man stated that that the Hunt test dogs and the FC gaurantees nothing is right. The last time I looked you gota have some smarts on the trainers behalf. What Im am telling you is that if you are going to pick out a hunting dog. Go look at whose who in the retreiver world. If you can afford it get you a puppy and do not make it a pet. If he does not make it get rid of him. Most folks let the kids and wife get attached and them if the dog does not work out they are stuck. If you have the money go buy an older dog that is a FT wash out. Then you have a dog with allot of training that is not going to make it in FT game. Now i will also go and say this. If you know of a good working dog or dogs that have a liter and you want to try one go for it. I have seen some great dogs that made it that had no background in the Fc or Hunt test world. It just as cheap to feed a dog that has papers as it is to feed one with no papers. It your choice. My last dog that I recently picked up is a beagle. No papers , not gona hunt and he loves all the family . He needed a home and I gave him one . My lab even likes him and she has papers.



i think this is what ruffled the emu's feathers


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## TurkeyH90 (May 21, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> Ok, without further derailing this thread get whatever color you like.  Ya'll can argue pedigreed vs backyard bred all day long but the numbers speak for themselves.  There are more dogs with good pedigrees containing performance titles doing well in the field and on the line than the ones without said titles.  "you gotta start somewhere" and "mom and dad were good hunters" and "its just a meat dog" are the most common excuses used to cover up a poorly bred, poorly trained dog.  I see these dogs day in, day out.  It's frustrating for me as a trainer and even more frustrating for an owner who doesn't get what they ultimately want.  You can make a dog do anything with enough pressure but you cant make him want to.  This dog is an investment.  The initial cost of the pup or "initial investment" is the smallest, most inconsequential cost of owning the dog.  You are making a commitment to this dog for the next 10-15 years...vet bills, food, training, doggy supplies...i promise you it is WAAAAYYYY more than the $1000 commonly shelled out for well bred pups these days.  So you can hedge your bet with the best bred pup you can afford or you can go to Vegas and lay it on the roulette wheel.  It's your choice, your money, your time, and your perceived level of performance expectation.
> Skyjacker, since I am obviously ignorant and you are the resident forum genetics expert, explain to me where chocolates came from.  Wasn't that long ago they were a "designer" color marketed by "snake oil salesmen", inbred to the point of health issues, deformities, and poor field performance.  Obviously, they must've crossed a yellow with Chesapeake to get the color...just sayin.  Remember, its on the internet so it HAS to be correct information.  Believe what you want, buy what you want...I really dont care, but don't try and prove me wrong with ONE website with questionable credibility.



Words of wisdom..When I buy a dog it is a commitment. The one lab I owned before my current dog was excellent in every hunting capacity. I can now settle for nothing less.


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## king killer delete (May 21, 2013)

*Emu*



bander_TC50 said:


> i think this is what ruffled the emu's feathers


and i hunt together


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## bander_TC50 (May 21, 2013)

killer elite said:


> and i hunt together



i figured as much as you helped him build his boat blind, 

just an example of people saying hunting dogs should be hunting dogs and not pets, my dog was strictly a hunting dog, we moved and my wife made him a pet, so now he is both. so i dont have a horse in the race. i was just saying. but ill pipe down now.


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## ThunderRoad (May 21, 2013)

killer elite said:


> and i hunt together



Can Emu's fly?


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## king killer delete (May 21, 2013)

*Dont know about flyin*



ThunderRoad said:


> Can Emu's fly?


 But he can shoot. I have seen that. Go to you tube costal Georgia duck hunting 2012. That was the last day we hunted together. He is coming back this year and Thunder you should come on down and hunt with us. The invite is still open.


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## bander_TC50 (May 23, 2013)

emu can definatly shoot that looked like allot of fun!!


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## king killer delete (May 24, 2013)

Emu is a killer and his oldest son shoots better than he does


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jun 1, 2013)

Count me with those who believe that "silver" labs are part Weim.  I understand from folks who know a whole lot more about genetics than I could ever hope to that the "blue" dilute is required to create the "silver" color and that doesn't occur in labs.  It does occur in Dobermans, Weims and some other breeds, but not labs.  Even if I am wrong it is such an unbelievably rare genetic trait that those who breed for it and turn out (predictably) whole litters of them are breeding for and with no regard for anything but that rare gene and the result (on average) would be a dog that is less likely to be intelligent, trainable, birdy, healthy, or a good marker because these factors are not being considered (actually being ignored completely) in the breeding decision.  Also, the AKC is in it for nothing but the money that comes from registrations.  They are in the business of registering dogs for money, that is all.  The breed clubs establish the standard and the Labrador Retriever Club of America does not recognize "silver."


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jun 1, 2013)

Nimrod71 said:


> I have never seen a silver lab.



You never will.



killer elite said:


> Now that is the AKC. What does the kennel club , British breed standard and the CKC Breed standard.  These breed standards are what defines a Labrador Retreiver. Not some web site.



Agreed...and by CKC, killer elite is talking about the Canadian Kennel Club, not that other joke of a dog registry using the same initials.



Joe Overby said:


> Breed standard doesn't recognize a "dudley" or a lack of pigmentation in the nose and around the eyes in yellows.



Disagree.  The last I read it the breed standard says that dudley's should be marked down in the show ring.  Big difference between that and "not recognizing" them.



Joe Overby said:


> The color variations you are seeing in the "designer" colors are simply genetic flaws.  Irresponsible breeding has continued this trait over the lust for money...[snip]It is simply a recessive genetic "flaw" that stupid people are willing to pay more money for.  Further, they have (as a whole) very, very, very little by way of performance titles in their pedigrees furthering my argument for a more proven line of dogs.  The color doesn't bother me, the weakness of pedigree, and the irresponsible breeding fostering a "fad" for off colored dogs does.



This is the absolute best case scenario for "silver labs."  That or they are part Weim.  Either way, breeding for them is at a minimum inadvisable and irresponsible...or just plain fraud.


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## emusmacker (Jun 4, 2013)

Dang Folded77, looks like the silver lab you got is "crap" or "trash".  So if you want to get rid of her, I'll take her.  

I'm not dog expert, but I do like it when those "cheap" backyard dogs make awesome hunting dogs.

Some folks could care less about field trials, I know I don't. All I want is my dog to hunt and enjoy it and to obey me.  If he never titles then whoo hoo.

I do ask 1 serious question though.
say that 2 huters are hunting together, 1 has a champion retriever and lots of titles to show for it, and the other has a non titled "backyard" dog.  Both dogs pick up the same amount of birds, obey their masters the same and are pretty much identical in training. Which is the better dog?

Vroom, you seem to like to pipe in on my comments, please don't refrain from this one.  Or you either Folsom. Please answer me which dog is a better hunter.


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## emusmacker (Jun 4, 2013)

vrooom said:


> So to be clear, you simply wanted somewhere to have a nice, inconsequential rant.  Fair enough



And to be clear, you worry about my comments more than any others, right?


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## emusmacker (Jun 4, 2013)

And thunder, yes emus can fly, if you toss one out of an f16 fighter plane it will fly for a little ways. Technically speaking of course.

Or if you put one on an airplane, then it along with all the people and luggage will fly. So yes they can fly.  Anymore questions?


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## Joe Overby (Jun 4, 2013)

emusmacker said:


> Dang Folded77, looks like the silver lab you got is "crap" or "trash".  So if you want to get rid of her, I'll take her.
> 
> I'm not dog expert, but I do like it when those "cheap" backyard dogs make awesome hunting dogs.
> 
> ...



This is a loaded question...and I'm walkin headlong into this one but OK..I'll bite...
The dog with the titles is the better dog. Why? Because he has proven his abilities not just in the duck blind but on the line to many sets of unbiased eyes against a standard set forth by an unbiased organization. Now, blow my argument out of the water and change the original statement to say the dog with the titles has no pedigree...it doesn't take anything away from the guy and dog who simply train and hunt but if you are asking who is better than it is the titled dog. Now Folsom, turkey trax, ngaduck and others will surely offer their opinions on this but what point are you trying to prove with this? That our opinions differ?? Or do you just want to pick a fight over opinions??


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## emusmacker (Jun 5, 2013)

No, just that i think as long as the dog performs to the way the hunter wants then it shouldn't matter.  

I used to own horses and had cousins and friends with registered horses. Because my horse wasn't registered it could not compete against the "better" horses. But when those same registered horses competed against my grade horse in the same type competitions my horse would win. But he never got any official recognition.  That's not fair.  Let the best horse, or dog win regardless of who the mama, and daddy is.

My point I was making is that both dogs did what they were supposed to do, retrieve the birds, hunt with enthusiasm, and obey their master. Just because one has competed in competitions doesn't make that dog any more superior. I know you and all the other trainers will disagree. Ya'll are supposed to, that where you get your moolah from. Those dogs you train that compete. Hard to get alot of recognition and name in books with just a plain ol hunting dog. Just my opinion


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jun 5, 2013)

emusmacker said:


> No, just that i think as long as the dog performs to the way the hunter wants then it shouldn't matter.
> 
> I used to own horses and had cousins and friends with registered horses. Because my horse wasn't registered it could not compete against the "better" horses. But when those same registered horses competed against my grade horse in the same type competitions my horse would win. But he never got any official recognition.  That's not fair.  Let the best horse, or dog win regardless of who the mama, and daddy is.
> 
> My point I was making is that both dogs did what they were supposed to do, retrieve the birds, hunt with enthusiasm, and obey their master. Just because one has competed in competitions doesn't make that dog any more superior. I know you and all the other trainers will disagree. Ya'll are supposed to, that where you get your moolah from. Those dogs you train that compete. Hard to get alot of recognition and name in books with just a plain ol hunting dog. Just my opinion


Eddie every now an then a blind hog will find a acorn!!.........Titles prove trainability in the lineage!!............While it is not a guarantee..........It does stack the odds in your favor!!

There are plenty of plain old hunting dogs out there that are good dogs, but how do you know??


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## Bkeepr (Jun 5, 2013)

If their genetics is similar to Lacy dogs, then silver labs are actually a "dd" , double dilution gene or otherwise would be black.  Same thing in other breeds expressing the color "blue" or "silver".  The parents of the first silver lab would have to both be "Dd" but would appear as black dogs.


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## ThunderRoad (Jun 5, 2013)

emusmacker said:


> And thunder, yes emus can fly, if you toss one out of an f16 fighter plane it will fly for a little ways. Technically speaking of course.
> 
> Or if you put one on an airplane, then it along with all the people and luggage will fly. So yes they can fly.  Anymore questions?



No thats all I wanted to know in this thread.


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## Folsom (Jun 5, 2013)

Emu, you must have got picked on as a kid...Am I right?? And now behind a computer you can be the bully when someone says your wrong or disagree with your opinion....

There are many problems I see with back yard breeding dogs, I would try to explain, but you wouldn't understand.


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## ryano (Jun 5, 2013)

Folsom said:


> There are many problems I see with back yard breeding dogs, .



They like to jump in the water and steal bumpers from puppies on training day    I would never own a dog like that!


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## Folsom (Jun 5, 2013)

Folsom said:


> There are many problems I see with back yard breeding dogs, I would try to explain, but you wouldn't understand.



With this being said I have trained several "back yard" bred dogs that turned out really nice.


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## Folsom (Jun 5, 2013)

ryano said:


> They like to jump in the water and steal bumpers from puppies on training day    I would never own a dog like that!



Thats not the dogs fault but the owner


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 5, 2013)

ryano said:


> They like to jump in the water and steal bumpers from puppies on training day    I would never own a dog like that!



Poor Allie


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 5, 2013)

ryano said:


> They like to jump in the water and steal bumpers from puppies on training day    I would never own a dog like that!



sit is a good command to teach....


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## ryano (Jun 5, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> sit is a good command to teach....



My trainer must have forgot that one.   You mean thats actually important?


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## Turkey Trax (Jun 5, 2013)

ryano said:


> My trainer must have forgot that one.   You mean thats actually important?



 that's a low blow...

Joe warned me about people like this!


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## puddlehunter (Jun 6, 2013)

Y'all will really be upset to know that labs are being crossed with pointy eared working dogs to increase their drive for work....I guess we will now have the labanois...


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 6, 2013)

ryano said:


> My trainer must have forgot that one.   You mean thats actually important?



I'd ask for my money back


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## emusmacker (Jun 6, 2013)

Folsom said:


> Emu, you must have got picked on as a kid...Am I right?? And now behind a computer you can be the bully when someone says your wrong or disagree with your opinion....
> 
> There are many problems I see with back yard breeding dogs, I would try to explain, but you wouldn't understand.



No, never got picked on much. But when I did, I stopped it. Know dat.

I also know that the odds can be stacked in your favor by gettin a pup from good lineage, but according to the scenario I gave, both dogs are equal.   

I don't promote "backyard" breeding but I also know that some folks think a dog has to be titled to be worth a dern.  

I have seeen the problems from backyard breeding. I have also seen some great hunting dogs from backyard breeding.  All I did was ask which of the 2 dogs was a better hunting dog?  Is it really that deep of an answer, or is it that both dogs are equal but because admitting that would then go against the whole champion bloodline breeding arguement.  kinda like not wanting to admit I have a point.  anyway, I was just using a scenario, do what you want, buy what you want, but please don't think that good hunting labs are only one color and come from champion bloodlines.


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## emusmacker (Jun 6, 2013)

RUTTNBUCK said:


> Eddie every now an then a blind hog will find a acorn!!.........Titles prove trainability in the lineage!!............While it is not a guarantee..........It does stack the odds in your favor!!
> 
> There are plenty of plain old hunting dogs out there that are good dogs, but how do you know??



i don't know if you're joking or not. You don't know me very well but I'll answer that question.

I have had 3 good ol hunting dogs in my lifetime.  1 was a redbone coon hound, well he was red but his mom was black and tan, he actually has ribbons and a trophy from competing, plus several coon tails from coons he treed . He even fought one to the death by himself once,(not bad for a "backyard bred" dog)

2 was Llewelin setter. He could have technically been registered, but I didn't need any toilet paper at the time so decided not to paper him. ( see all I wanted was a hunting dog that didn't range out too far).  He unfortunately died just after turning a yr old. I have pics and memories of my dad and I hunting and killing quail over this dog. He actually made a point once while bringing a bird back to me.

3 was another bird dog, it was what they call a "drop" a cross between a setter and pointer. He was a good dog, hunted many times over him too.  He would also "point" rabitts. But quail and woodcock was his main quarry.


Also as a kid, my dad had 2 awesome bird dogs. 1 was an english setter named Jake( backyard special) and another was an english pointer( backyard special). Both of those dogs were great and they hunted with many registered field trial dogs, matter of fact I remember tagging along on a hunt with a veterinarian friend of my grandad that had a field dog, and he asked my dad if he was interested in competing with field trial dogs, my dad looked at him and said, Jake has competed with 1 all day.  

so you see, I have had several hunting dogs. No labs yet, but a good friend of mine got a pup from me that was a backyard bred dog and his dog is a darn good hunting dog.  Anymore questions bout my hunting dogs, please ask.

thanks


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## ryano (Jun 6, 2013)

nhancedsvt said:


> I'd ask for my money back


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 6, 2013)

emusmacker said:


> No, never got picked on much. But when I did, I stopped it. Know dat.
> 
> I also know that the odds can be stacked in your favor by gettin a pup from good lineage, but according to the scenario I gave, both dogs are equal.
> 
> ...



which dog is better is a pretty deep question. the akc hunt test look at 4 things for each dog.  marking ability, style, presaverance, and trainablity. each one of these things gets points and a dog has to get a certain amount of points to pass the test. also to get a title a dog has to pass more than just one test which means the dog will see atleast 8 different places to get the title (4 land series and 4 water series) 

in your question you said both dogs picked up the same number of birds what you didnt say was which dog did what, the titled dog may have done may have been easier than the "meat dog" but we dont know that. a hunt test will give you a pretty good idea of who the better dog is in a simulated hunt.  that is one or many reasons why hunt test were started, was so you could see who had the better dog.

also you keep talking about back yard breed dogs. if you look around the country most of the best breeding are backyard breeders not places like wildrose kennels because these people care about bettering the breed. hunt test and field trails show that a dog can do the work with out going and sitting in a duckblind. and then the health certs that shows both the sire and dame are healthy and going to most likey produce pups that will retrieve and be with you for many years to come.


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## king killer delete (Jun 6, 2013)

I want everybody here to tell me about your last talk with your dog and how he felt about the color of his coat. Last time I checked poor old dogs are color blind. A good dog dont know what color he is . As long as the dog is a AKC/UKC/CKC/ The Kennel cub dog he is a pure breed with papers. He fits the breed standard of one of these kennel clubs. Any other dog that is crossed with another breed is not a Lab. He is part lab and something elese. He is not a full blooded reteriver. Now he might be a good hunting dog for you but that dont make him a pure breed dog . I had a black dog that was half bird dog and half lab he was a great duck dog or so i thought. The I went to a Fld Trial and I saw some great dogs. Silver Lab. The AKC breed standard talks about 3 colors Yellow , Black and Choclate. It does not say anything about fox, red , golden , green, purple, blue or silver. It does say that a lab can have white spot on the chest and several white toes.  A good dog is a good dog no matter what color the dog is.


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## emusmacker (Jun 7, 2013)

krazybronco2 said:


> which dog is better is a pretty deep question. the akc hunt test look at 4 things for each dog.  marking ability, style, presaverance, and trainablity. each one of these things gets points and a dog has to get a certain amount of points to pass the test. also to get a title a dog has to pass more than just one test which means the dog will see atleast 8 different places to get the title (4 land series and 4 water series)
> 
> in your question you said both dogs picked up the same number of birds what you didnt say was which dog did what, the titled dog may have done may have been easier than the "meat dog" but we dont know that. a hunt test will give you a pretty good idea of who the better dog is in a simulated hunt.  that is one or many reasons why hunt test were started, was so you could see who had the better dog.
> 
> also you keep talking about back yard breed dogs. if you look around the country most of the best breeding are backyard breeders not places like wildrose kennels because these people care about bettering the breed. hunt test and field trails show that a dog can do the work with out going and sitting in a duckblind. and then the health certs that shows both the sire and dame are healthy and going to most likey produce pups that will retrieve and be with you for many years to come.



In the situation I gave above. Both dogs did what they were asked to do.  In a real hunting situation, I understand about the points and such but that dog that didn't have points doesn't know that.  I'm not bashing hunt tests and registered dogs, all I'm saying is that if I have a lab that I CHOOSE not to compete in tests and he/she retrieves my birds, and does what I ask, when I ask without any lip. then why say or assume that he/she will not or is subpar to a dog that competes?


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## krazybronco2 (Jun 7, 2013)

emusmacker said:


> In the situation I gave above. Both dogs did what they were asked to do.  In a real hunting situation, I understand about the points and such but that dog that didn't have points doesn't know that.  I'm not bashing hunt tests and registered dogs, all I'm saying is that if I have a lab that I CHOOSE not to compete in tests and he/she retrieves my birds, and does what I ask, when I ask without any lip. then why say or assume that he/she will not or is subpar to a dog that competes?



im going to say u you dont understand how the points work for what i am talking about. each of the 4 things gets a certain amount of points or score for that test for akc i think it is on a 0-10 scale for the 4 things they are looking for at each test. the points i think you are talking about are the points recieved for passing the test and add up to get the title. i know the hrc points better than akc but for started you get 5 points for each test passed seasoned 10 points and finished 15 points and each test has a land series and water series. i think you need 20 points to get a started title 40 points for seasoned title and 60 points to get a finished title.


you stated the dogs picked up the same number of birds minded the same and enjoyed hunting. then asked which dog is better. this is impossible to answer there way to factors that come into play hunting to tell which dog is better. and asking someone online which dog is better with out seeing them and only giving 3 very very general things does not help them make a decision. telling someone that one dog has its finished or master title (and this is what i considederd titled) helps make the decision and that is why joe went with his answer and why alot of the people that run hunt test will answer the same way.  you can read the standards and see that some are alot easier than others and i think most that run hunt test will say just about and meat dog can pass a started test, and ok hunting dog can run seasoned test and only the good dogs can pass a finished test. 

and i will say and this is MY OPINION is any person that has a dog that loves to hunt should run some hunt test. first like joe said earlier it extends the dogs hunting season and they love it, it also gives you a reason to to train year round instead of just 2 weeks or a month before the season and maybe having to fix issues during the season. and if the dog is anything like mine you pull out the e collar or a bumper she goes nuts because she knows she is going to get to chase something in the near future.


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## emusmacker (Jun 7, 2013)

I totally understand what you're saying man.   But maybe the question was too generalized. But both dogs are good ol hunting dogs, only difference is 1 has titles or points.  

My point is and it's really simple.  The color of a lab doesn't make it anymore inferior than other colors.  And a "backyard" (non papered) dog that has both parents that are HUNTING dogs is no less of a HUNTING dog than a champion bloodline dog.  Notice I said  hunting dog.

And btw, if you and I are hunting in the blind together and we are using my "backyard special" and he is awesome and trained well, you gonna tell me my dog ain't as good as yours.  Hope not.  I guess it depends on what one considers being better means.  I for 1 do not want to compete in hunt tests, I don't have the money or time, but please don't try to convince me that my dog is inferior to yours or any other because i choose not to compete him.


I know this is not a dog related example but it's kinda like this.

If you are quail hunting and you shoot a Remington 1187 and kill a limit of quail with the Remington, even kill a triple on a covey rise, then the next day you take a Benelli Montefeltro and kill a limit, plus 3 on a covey rise. Which of those guns are better in the circumstances I provided. Not comparing inertia vs gas.

Which gun could you shoot better if you did the same thing with both guns.  1 is about 600 bucks more expensive,but other than that in the hunting situation I used both guns are equal.  Right?


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## emusmacker (Jun 7, 2013)

This is my last post on this.

All I'm saying is that there are a good many good or even great hunting dogs out there that are not titled or champions and many are not even registered.  Why assume those dogs are "trash" or inferior just because they didn't cost as much or don't have lineage with champions in them.  I know a guy that has a dog he got from me and he would probably be offended if you tell him his dog ain't as good as yours because his ain't registered.  And if you hunt with him and his dog you would probably be impressed with him, btw he trained it himself.  

I'm done with this thread 

see ya


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## nhancedsvt (Jun 7, 2013)

If ALL things are equal (same dog, same color, same abilities, etc), and the only thing different between them is one is registered/titled and the other is not, then the registered/titled dog is the "better" dog. Don't believe me? Put both dogs on the market and see which sells for the higher price.

I understand the argument you're trying to make and I get your point, but your argument is based on the assumption that titles/papers don't add anything to a dog and they do. Maybe not in the duck blind like you say, but trust me there is inherent value in a dog with letters in front of its name. If it didn't make a dog better, folks wouldn't do it.

My dog is a backyard bred mutt. She doesn't have any titles, likely never will. But I don't try to kid myself and tell myself that because she'll pick up a duck I send her to that she's as good as a proven trial dog. It is funny to me how the people usually bashing HT/FT dogs are those who have never and likely will never own one.

Oh and by the way Chocolate>black or yellow.


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## king killer delete (Jun 7, 2013)

Its all about what you do with your dog. I have seen allot of good back yard dogs with papers. I always have to say this. It cost just as much to maintain a dog from the pound as it does  to maintain a proven trial dog or hunt test dog. Its all in what you want. Years ago I had a well trained female that was out of Fld Trial stock and she was an AKC titled hunting dog. Went duck hunting with some Guys I had never hunted with in two boats. The were in one boat and my Partner and my dog were in my boat. First duck down the dog from the other boat was sent on the retreive. This dog swam out about 20 yards and started going in a big cricle. The duck was dead and was going out with the tide. They finally got their dog back in their boat. I ask them if they wanted me to pick up the bird. The bird is now in the middle of the Savannah  River 100 hundred yards  in mid stream. They told me to pick up the bird if I could. My little Annie was sent. Perfect line  as she got close to the downed bird one whistle blast and one over cast and she had the bird. all I could hear in the back ground was suprise. They had never seen a dog handled before. She had done it 500 times before in training. This is what its about. Not ribbons but well trained gun dogs.


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