# tithing to a church you are not a member?



## Double Barrel BB (Nov 13, 2006)

Does it matter which church we tithe to? Does it have to be the church you are a member at?

DB BB


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Nov 13, 2006)

When we tithe we are supposed to be giving it to God not an individual church. If we see a need wherever it's at and God directs us to give we're supposed to give.I an very lucky and very proud of our church it's a very giving church. Trying to get lost people saved is the number one priority but in all the years I've been a deacon there the only reason we have had deacon meetings was to discuss a love offering to someone or in some cases some church in need.


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## Randy (Nov 13, 2006)

Nope.  I rarely tithe to a church.


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## Vernon Holt (Nov 13, 2006)

We have for us this example: (1Co 16:2) "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come".

In this scripture (and in others) the clear indication is that when the local church met on the Lord's Day, it seemed to have been customary that they bring their gifts and placed them on the alter.

These offerings were intended as a means of supporting the ministry as well as the "temple upkeep".

Now, things can go awry when it comes to Church Stewardship of these tithes and offerings.  I presume this may be the basis for your question.

I have known first hand of Churches who are reckless with spending the Lord's money, spending heavily on staff and administration, while neglecting the ministry (local and foreign missions, benevolence, etc).

This matter is certainly debatable, but I for one believe that if and when a Church departs from the Biblical task at hand, then it is decision time.

If one elects to withold all or part of their tithe and offerings, one would not necessarily give to "another church".  Consider for example giving to the local Gideon Camp for the purchase of Bibles which are distributed to points world wide.  Talk to your local Family and Children's
service about a local need.  Come to the aid of a widow or an oprhan.

When one gives to a "need", he should always give in the name of the Lord.


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## toddboucher (Nov 13, 2006)

I could be wrong but I believe where we are planted(our home church) we will grow. Means if our church membership is were we are Spiritually growing then that is were are tithe should be. Now as giving to a need, we are told to give tithe and offerings to the Lord, again "I" feel our offering is after/before our tithe has been giving to our home church and does not count towards it. Malachi say's bring the Whole tithe into the storehouse. I feel under grace its not a duity but a joy to give to the Lord, So its a heart issue. Now I heard cathloics give 5% or their church and 5% to others. I feel it's against the giving plan in the Bible. I would like to hear from my cathloic brothers on this, because maybe Im wrong.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 13, 2006)

Going along with what Mr. Holt said, a preacher made this remark once to his own congregation:

_If you're having problems in your heart about giving to your local church assembly, you should consider if it's a sign that you should be moving on._

It wasn't an angry remark either, he was freely pointing out that when it comes to giving, if your heart isn't in it, then your whole self needn't be in "it" either. He was pointing out that this was an indication that you weren't where God wanted you to be.

just a point to ponder on the matter...


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## 60Grit (Nov 13, 2006)

I read it a little diffently. 

When we are away, out of town, visiting family or just on vacation, we tithe, regardless of what church we are in. We don't save it up for when we get home to give to our church.

I look at it two ways, I am thankful that God has blessed this country (so far) in such a way to allow us to worship no matter where we are, and two, I feel that God will use my tithe for his will regardless of where I give it.

?????????


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## bird dog (Nov 13, 2006)

The bible say's that the tith is to be brought to the store house.  That is the first fruits.  It do'es not say any thing about your offerings being brought to the store house.  I belive this to mean that your store house is the church in witch you are pluged into.  As far as when we are out of town we give a offering to the church we attend, but the tith goes to my home church.  If you do'nt think your home church is good ground you should move to a place that is good ground.


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## THREEJAYS (Nov 17, 2006)

ALL GOOD COMENTS AND I AGREE ON TITHING AT MY LOCAL CHURCH BODY.I DON'T MEAN THIS BAD BUT IN SEVERAL THREADS I,VE SEEN IT MENTIONED TO MOVE ON,WHAT THRILLS ME IS TO SEE CHRISTAINS STAND UP COMPASSIONATELY AND LOVING TO TRY TO BRING ABOUT POSITIVE CHANGE IN THE BODY THEY ARE SERVING IN.( JUST A NOTE) IF YOU CHOOSE THIS ROUTE IT MAY NOT BE EASY, BUT MAY BLESS MORE FOLKS THAN YOU COULD EVER IMAGINE.


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## DCarter001 (Nov 28, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Does it matter which church we tithe to? Does it have to be the church you are a member at?
> 
> DB BB



Back to the original question.  We have lived out of our home town now for many years.  We have chosen NOT to move our letter of membership.  We have been included on the roles of two different churches as "associate" members because we were plugged in but would not move our letters.  Each of those instances involved detailed conversations with the pastors and searching our hearts about our membership letters.  In our case, we tithed to the church we were attending.


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 1, 2006)

The issue of tithing is an interesting one. 
Tithing is introduced in the Old Testament and when you add up the actual tithes it would be equivalent to 30% of ones income not the 10% we are used to.
In the Old Testament it was used for the welfare of the priestly tribe and the up keep of God's house.
In the New Testament tithing is not mentioned, but instead sacrificial giving. Does this mean merely 10% or more? That has been greatly debated since the church was founded.
Also since God's house, the temple in Jerulsalum, is no longer needed for worship since we are now each God's temple there is debate about what a "tithe" should be used for. 
1 Corinthians16:1-3 shows that the members were to collect  an offering to go to others in need (specifically the church members in Jerusalem). Notice that it was a collection to be taken up weekly until Paul arrived and then Paul would send it to Jerusalem.  It was not a continuous collection.  It was a collection based on need of other brothers and sisters.  
Giving in the New Testament was to be a sacrifice for the giver and to meet a specific need within Christ's body (local or global) and their community.
You just will not find a command to give to a local church, but instead to give to needs of individuals as worship towards God.  If giving to a local church is the way you define it, go for it.  The key is this is an act of worship to God through meeting the needs of fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.


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## Vernon Holt (Dec 1, 2006)

You seem not to take into account that the Church today does have CONTINUING needs well beyond the "needs of individuals"(staff, buildings, utilities, insurance, supplies, travel, missions support, etc.)

Giving is indeed an act of worship, but it is also an act of stewardship (being responsible to God).


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 1, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:


> You seem not to take into account that the Church today does have CONTINUING needs well beyond the "needs of individuals"(staff, buildings, utilities, insurance, supplies, travel, missions support, etc.)
> 
> Well that is were the debate is.  I'm coming from this having been on staff at churches for over 12 years.  I've drawn a paycheck from  church most of my adult life.  I've been challenged by other Christians this pass year as to the necessity of some of things we "tithe" to.  It has been an interesting and tough year to examine the issue.
> Some things we say we give too may merely be getting in the way of actual giving to ministries. For example doyou give to a mortgage on a building or use that same money to support a missionary?  If you didn't have the mortgage, the answer is easy.
> ...


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 8, 2010)

This is something my wife and I have been discussing, whay say you other Christians who tithe?
Always to your local Church or do you support other Ministries?


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## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

My wife and I faithfully tithe to our church because: 1) as has been pointed out it's scripturally taught that we should bring our tithes and offerings to the altar(see Vernon Holt post #4- he said it a lot better than I can), and 2) to use a J Vernon McGee phrase it's just sanctified common sense that a church can't function without money.

That being said, I think it's about grace giving; if you want to support some other ministry also, then by all means do it. God will bless you for giving. I've seen the evidence many times when there just isn't the money in the family budget at the start of the month, but the bills are always paid on time.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 8, 2010)

Swamp Runner said:


> This is something my wife and I have been discussing, whay say you other Christians who tithe?
> Always to your local Church or do you support other Ministries?



addictedtodeer put it well...and is the situation that my family is in currently.  The church we attend has no paid pastor.  We have no building.  We have no expenses.  We meet in the basement of a home.

There is a small amount of money that is kept on reserve...but everything over that is given to missions.  In the 8 months that we've been going to this church, we've not given a penny to it.  Instead, we've been encouraged to give directly to missions and support those who the Lord has directed us to.

One of the ways we've done that is by getting Christmas gifts for a missionary family in Croatia.  Was it the normal way of giving to missions?  Nope.  Was it supplying a need to someone in "the Church?"  Absolutely.



addictedtodeer said:


> Our church for instance has decided it will no longer seek a paid pastor.  The elders of our church have now become the ones who preach, so that more money can go towards actual ministry needs (its worked well for this past year). We are also looking at selling our church property and begin meeting in each other houses.  This way we have no expenses to maintain a"church" and our giving can be as close to 100% to ministry as possible.
> it is radical, and it is challenging.





tell sackett said:


> My wife and I faithfully tithe to our church because: 1) as has been pointed out it's scripturally taught that we should bring our tithes and offerings to the altar(see Vernon Holt post #4- he said it a lot better than I can), and 2) to use a J Vernon McGee phrase it's just sanctified common sense that a church can't function without money.
> 
> That being said, I think it's about grace giving; if you want to support some other ministry also, then by all means do it. God will bless you for giving. I've seen the evidence many times when there just isn't the money in the family budget at the start of the month, but the bills are always paid on time.



Interesting.  Never seen the words Tithe and Grace Giving spoken of positively in the same post


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## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> addictedtodeer put it well...and is the situation that my family is in currently.  The church we attend has no paid pastor.  We have no building.  We have no expenses.  We meet in the basement of a home.
> 
> There is a small amount of money that is kept on reserve...but everything over that is given to missions.  In the 8 months that we've been going to this church, we've not given a penny to it.  Instead, we've been encouraged to give directly to missions and support those who the Lord has directed us to.
> 
> ...


Ok, you dad blamed pot stirrer, it's all grace giving, how's that?


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## rjcruiser (Jan 8, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Ok, you dad blamed pot stirrer, it's all grace giving, how's that?



Wasn't stirring the pot or at least wasn't trying too 


Just thought it was humorous as those two don't go hand in hand and church's have split over the difference.


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## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Wasn't stirring the pot or at least wasn't trying too Yeah, right It's hard to resist that low hanging fruit ain't it?
> 
> 
> Just thought it was humorous as those two don't go hand in hand and church's have split over the difference.


I see your point. I guess I should have clarified I'm using the term"tithe" as giving and not just a certain mandated amount.


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## pileit (Jan 8, 2010)

Swamp Runner said:


> This is something my wife and I have been discussing, whay say you other Christians who tithe?
> Always to your local Church or do you support other Ministries?



My wife and I tithe to the local church and give offerings to the Georgia Baptist Childrens home, St Judes hospital and the Shriners.  I like the groups that are dedicated to helping children that would otherwise be left out.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 8, 2010)

Most of the churches that you attend are already in the process of helping in foreign missions, helping the poor,  the financially needy.  I encourage Christians to support your home congregation's benevolent programs first, then do more on your own.
There are things that Christians need to do individually rather than as a group.  Help your neighbor.  Help the husband, wife, child on the street who's obviously in need.

Tithing.  Personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a 10% tithe for Christians.
Disciples of Christ are to "give as you have decided in your heart".
That obviously puts an extra burden on us to make the proper choice and decision.


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## tell sackett (Jan 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Most of the churches that you attend are already in the process of helping in foreign missions, helping the poor,  the financially needy.  I encourage Christians to support your home congregation's benevolent programs first, then do more on your own.
> There are things that Christians need to do individually rather than as a group.  Help your neighbor.  Help the husband, wife, child on the street who's obviously in need.
> 
> Tithing.  Personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a 10% tithe for Christians.
> ...


Thanks for saying what I was trying to(apparently not too well)


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## crackerdave (Jan 8, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> My wife and I faithfully tithe to our church because: 1) as has been pointed out it's scripturally taught that we should bring our tithes and offerings to the altar(see Vernon Holt post #4- he said it a lot better than I can), and 2) to use a J Vernon McGee phrase it's just sanctified common sense that a church can't function without money.
> 
> That being said, I think it's about grace giving; if you want to support some other ministry also, then by all means do it. God will bless you for giving. I've seen the evidence many times when there just isn't the money in the family budget at the start of the month, but the bills are always paid on time.




Amen to that,brother.I've seen a lot of God's hand in that,too.Especially here lately.


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## Lowjack (Jan 8, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Does it matter which church we tithe to? Does it have to be the church you are a member at?
> 
> DB BB



Yeah dont tithe to the Church with the false Jesus, remember only your church has the real Eisous


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## crackerdave (Jan 8, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Yeah dont tithe to the Church with the false Jesus, remember only your church has the real Eisous



Seems like an unnecessary jab to me?


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 8, 2010)

Found some interesting facts and figures on tithing and the percenatges given by people from the Barna Group -

http://www.barna.org/barna-update/a...ew-study-shows-trends-in-tithing-and-donating


New Study Shows Trends in Tithing and Donating      
April 14, 2008

While theologians debate whether or not the practice of tithing - donating ten percent (or more) of one's income to churches and charitable groups - is a biblical responsibility of Christians, Americans have pretty much made up their minds on the subject. Their views are discernible through their behavior. The giving patterns of Americans are described in new research released by The Barna Group, based on an annual tracking survey conducted by the firm regarding religious behaviors and beliefs. The results of the new research can be compared with outcomes from prior years to follow the trend line.

Tithing in 2007

Whether they believe in the principle of tithing or not, few Americans give away that much money. In 2007, the research revealed that just 5% of adults tithed.

Not surprisingly, some population groups were more likely than others to have given away at least ten percent of their income. Among the most generous segments were evangelicals (24% of whom tithed); conservatives (12%); people who had prayed, read the Bible and attended a church service during the past week (12%); charismatic or Pentecostal Christians (11%); and registered Republicans (10%).

Several groups also stood out as highly unlikely to tithe: people under the age of 25, atheists and agnostics, single adults who have never been married, liberals, and downscale adults. One percent or less of the people in each of those segments tithed in 2007.

Among all born again adults, 9% contributed one-tenth or more of their income.

The study also showed that Protestants were four times as likely to tithe as were Catholics (8% versus 2%, respectively).

Tithing Since 2000

The percentage of adults who tithe has stayed constant since the turn of the decade, falling in the 5% to 7% range. The Barna tracking reported that the proportion of adults who tithed was 7% in 2006 and 2005; 5% in 2004 and 2003; 6% in 2002; and 5% in 2001.

Origins of Tithing

Strangely, tithing is a Jewish practice, not a Christian principle espoused in the New Testament. The idea of a tithe - which literally means one-tenth or the tenth part - originated as the tax that Israelites paid from the produce of the land to support the priestly tribe (the Levites), to fund Jewish religious festivals, and to help the poor. The ministry of Jesus Christ, however, brought an end to adherence to many of the ceremonial codes that were fundamental to the Jewish faith. Tithing was such a casualty. Since the first-century, Christians have believed in generous giving, but have not been under any obligation to contribute a specific percentage of their income.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 8, 2010)

Swamp Runner said:


> Origins of Tithing
> 
> Strangely, tithing is a Jewish practice, not a Christian principle espoused in the New Testament. The idea of a tithe - which literally means one-tenth or the tenth part - originated as the tax that Israelites paid from the produce of the land to support the priestly tribe (the Levites), to fund Jewish religious festivals, and to help the poor. The ministry of Jesus Christ, however, brought an end to adherence to many of the ceremonial codes that were fundamental to the Jewish faith. Tithing was such a casualty. Since the first-century, Christians have believed in generous giving, but have not been under any obligation to contribute a specific percentage of their income.



This is slightly misleading.  The tax was 10% for the Levites, 10% for the festivals and then 10% every 3 years for the poor.  As such, the total was 23.3% per year.



Funny thing about the tithe.  Ask a Southern Baptist..or a person who believes in Tithing 10% whether or not service can replace $$ when $$ is tight.  I've always been told yes.  Well...how do you put a $$ amount on service?  That usually stumps them.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 8, 2010)

I don't remember who it was but I remember hearing someone say they gave 10% as a young adult but now in their later years and pretty well off financially, they now kept the 10% and gave the 90% to God.
Actually, we don't give to God, we return to God.


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## thedeacon (Jan 8, 2010)

We are commanded in the new testament to give as we have been prospered, and we are commanded to give on the first day of the week. To me, that means that I should decide how God has prospered me and make a decision on how much I think I should give back to God, and I should give that to my home congregation.
If you choose to give more to other needs you will be much blessed. If you are displeased with the way funds are spent maybe you are a member of the wrong church.

Tithing was commanded under the law of Moses and we are told that we should exceed the works of the Scribes and Pharisee's. That tells me we should be very open with our giving. 

And by the way money is not the only way we can give back to God. To many times we think that all we have to do is show up at church and drop some bill's in the plate and we will be a christian. Not so. Sitting in a church will not make you a christian any more than sitting in a hen house will make you a christian.


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## pileit (Jan 8, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> My wife and I faithfully tithe to our church because: 1) as has been pointed out it's scripturally taught that we should bring our tithes and offerings to the altar(see Vernon Holt post #4- he said it a lot better than I can), and 2) to use a J Vernon McGee phrase it's just sanctified common sense that a church can't function without money.
> 
> That being said, I think it's about grace giving; if you want to support some other ministry also, then by all means do it. God will bless you for giving. I've seen the evidence many times when there just isn't the money in the family budget at the start of the month, but the bills are always paid on time.



You are right on the mark.  Why would anyone want to return any less because we are under grace and not under the law?


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## Double Barrel BB (Jan 11, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Yeah dont tithe to the Church with the false Jesus, remember only your church has the real Eisous


 
This was a long time ago... and a lot of other circumstances were involved...

DB BB


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## rjcruiser (Jan 11, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> This was a long time ago... and a lot of other circumstances were involved...
> 
> DB BB



welcome back


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## Lowjack (Jan 11, 2010)

thedeacon said:


> We are commanded in the new testament to give as we have been prospered, and we are commanded to give on the first day of the week. To me, that means that I should decide how God has prospered me and make a decision on how much I think I should give back to God, and I should give that to my home congregation.
> If you choose to give more to other needs you will be much blessed. If you are displeased with the way funds are spent maybe you are a member of the wrong church.
> 
> Tithing was commanded under the law of Moses and we are told that we should exceed the works of the Scribes and Pharisee's. That tells me we should be very open with our giving.
> ...



Titheing like the Sabbath preceeds the Law.
Abel gave o his flock to God, so did Cain.
Abraham tithed to Melquisedek.


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 11, 2010)

Double Barrel BB said:


> This was a long time ago... and a lot of other circumstances were involved...
> 
> DB BB



Yeah, It is fairly old, I love going through the old threads, some real good gems to peruse.


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## reformedpastor (Jan 11, 2010)

If the word tithe means "a tenth" how could it be more?


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## BeenHuntn (Jan 12, 2010)

no takers on the truth of tithing, huh?


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## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> no takers on the truth of tithing, huh?



No takers? The kingdom of God must be financed. Just like our homes and the civil magistrate. In fact, its not an accident the at bible says where your heart is there will be your money. Let's take this to the next level-to say your a Christian and never, sporadicly, hardly, painfully give-tithe-offer- how can you claim to be a Christian? Just saying! 

When God saves a man he comes with all he has to serve his new Master. All the money in the world, much less the small amounts we all have, couldn't buy what He's graciously given. 

To put it in southren your pocket book will be where your faith is! If its the god of sports then............, of the god of health.............., the god of pleasure...................


You fill in the blanks. 



Do I believe the tithe is still in affect? Yep.


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## gtparts (Jan 12, 2010)

"All the money in the world, much less the small amounts we all have, could buy what He's graciously given. "

Believe you left out the "not". Should read, All the money in the world, much less the small amounts we all have, could not buy what He's graciously given. 

If the tithe were no more than a symbolic representation of our fealty to God, that would be sufficient reason to give it. But it is a chief method by which all may participate in the good works God prepared for us to do. Is supporting missionaries a good work? Is providing for a place of communal worship a good work? Is feeding and clothing the poor a good work? How about aiding in providing health services for the sick? Or comfort for the dying? Or constructing affordable housing? 

And finally, is any of this of value if we do not also take, bring, or send  the Good News of Jesus, the redemptive power of His death and resurrection, to those we seek to minister to in their physical need?


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## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2010)

gtparts said:


> "All the money in the world, much less the small amounts we all have, could buy what He's graciously given. "
> 
> Believe you left out the "not". Should read, All the money in the world, much less the small amounts we all have, could not buy what He's graciously given.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the correction. I have edited my post. Christians should be involved in all those things you mentioned, 'good works' are keeping His commandments. 

Tithing is a good work. And you can only tithe to your church everything else is over and above what is required.


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## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> so in other words... you didnt read the article...



What article?


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## Tony Two Tone (Jan 12, 2010)

*Hmmmmm!*

This topic reminds me of a story of the pastor in a small western town. He preached faithfully each Sunday and vigilantly cared for his flock.  He was a very thin man who also loved his horse and took very good care of it.  

One Sunday after church a lady from the walked up to the pastor and said, why are you so thin and undernourished while your horse is so well maintained?   He gently replied you see… I love my horse and take very good care of him. And you and the rest of this congregation take care of me.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 12, 2010)

I'm not sure where to start with the article.  I just read the whole thing.  Let me think on it....there is a good bit I find wrong and there is a lot I agree with.


But let me start with this question.  Weren't you one of the ones who insisted that water baptism is part of salvation and that you cannot be saved without?  Or am I mistaken (which I very well could be).


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## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm not sure where to start with the article.  I just read the whole thing.  Let me think on it....there is a good bit I find wrong and there is a lot I agree with.
> 
> 
> But let me start with this question.  Weren't you one of the ones who insisted that water baptism is part of salvation and that you cannot be saved without?  Or am I mistaken (which I very well could be).




If you are asking me, if baptism is essential to salvation? The answer is no.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 12, 2010)

No, I was asking BH.


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## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> it was earlier in the thread...  i would love to see this article refuted on here...
> prob wont happen tho.
> 
> http://www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html



Does the man who wrote this article discount the Trinity and everlasting punishment? If this is the case the guy isn't even a Christian. 

At first glance the article reminds me of sophomoric scholarship. Like one who takes an concordance, picks all the versus with the word tithe in them and compiles them to together and states an conclusion. But I will address some of his points later.


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## Huntinfool (Jan 12, 2010)

> Does the man who wrote this article discount the Trinity and everlasting punishment? If this is the case the guy isn't even a Christian.




Yes.....that's the guy.  Not sure you or I can make a judgement on the last part though.


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## reformedpastor (Jan 12, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Yes.....that's the guy.  Not sure you or I can make a judgement on the last part though.




Not sure I follow you. Are you saying that a man can deny the Trinity and be a Christian? What would this kind of thinking lend itself to?


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## Huntinfool (Jan 12, 2010)

beenhuntn said:


> not me.



10-4


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## Huntinfool (Jan 12, 2010)

reformedpastor said:


> Not sure I follow you. Are you saying that a man can deny the Trinity and be a Christian? What would this kind of thinking lend itself to?



What I'm saying is that you do not know the condition of his heart.  That is all.

I agree...it would be appropriate to question his salvation.


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## Israel (Jan 12, 2010)

I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
But I don't believe in the trinity.


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## Inthegarge (Jan 12, 2010)

My experience has been that the ones pushing Tithing as OT only don't give anything. They think Pastors and Christians workers shouldn't get paid. Yes, some "Ministers" are in it for the money BUT the majority are trying to 1) win others to Christ 2) help young Christians to grow and 3) living on a lot less than their congregations... Funny they are 1st ones called when 1) you want to get married 2) you want someone in your family buried and 3) bad things happen in YOUR life. The 1st Century Christians gave ALL THEY HAD cheerfully. Today it's lets see how little I can get away with giving. As has already been said "your heart is where your money is"... Why don't you post your checkbook so we all can see where your heart is ?????  JMHCO  RW


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## Inthegarge (Jan 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> pastor,
> lets focus on his article on tithing for a minute. lets worry about whether he is a Christian or not later...
> 
> if you read his article... and you disagree would you please prove him wrong?
> ...



Matt 5:17 ff   Jesus Speaking " Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets; I am not come to destroy but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the Kingdom of heaven; but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven"...  Didn't the scribes and Pharisees tithe ????  Is your giving exceeding their tithe ????  Back to the checkbook..........JMHO  RW


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## Ronnie T (Jan 12, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> My experience has been that the ones pushing Tithing as OT only don't give anything. They think Pastors and Christians workers shouldn't get paid. Yes, some "Ministers" are in it for the money BUT the majority are trying to 1) win others to Christ 2) help young Christians to grow and 3) living on a lot less than their congregations... Funny they are 1st ones called when 1) you want to get married 2) you want someone in your family buried and 3) bad things happen in YOUR life. The 1st Century Christians gave ALL THEY HAD cheerfully. Today it's lets see how little I can get away with giving. As has already been said "your heart is where your money is"... Why don't you post your checkbook so we all can see where your heart is ?????  JMHCO  RW



I fully agree with most everything you say.  Many Christians give as little as possible.   But they do that whether their church teaches tithing or not.

Before Christ, people were instructed on exactly how much to give.  They were told "A tenth belongs to the Lord".
During Jesus' ministry and then throughout the inspired writings Christians were never commanded to tithe(give a certain amount).
In and thru Jesus, disciples were told that everything already belonged to God.  That we were only stewards.  And they/we were instructed to give "As We Purposed in Our Hearts".
Wow!  What a statement.  "Give As We Have Purposed in Our Hearts".

In other words, God no longer intends to tell us exactly what to return to Him.  God doesn't need our money.  But God needs our hearts.

Preachers and ministers will always have what they need.  God will see to that.  The church will never go broke.  God will see to that.
God no longer wants 10 percent of what's already His.  He wants us to give all of it.
I've know people who've never given as much as 10 percent.  I've also known people who gave 60 percent.
They both gave as they purposed in their heart.

And Jesus still stands watching the poor widow give everything.


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## post450 (Jan 12, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> 1 Thessalonians 5:21
> Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
> 
> so prove the tithe and i'll hold fast to it...
> ...



I disagree. If Christ is being preached, regardless of the preacher is false, has the wrong intentions/motivation, or the set up of the church, Paul said in Philippians 1:18 "What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice." Verses 12-17 lay the background for what he is saying. Benny Hinn may well be a false prophet, but if some people come to Christ through his preaching the Word, it doesn't really matter who delivered it, after all, it is the preached Word which renders faith leading to Salvation through Christ. We can't place God or His Word in a box. The parable of the wheat and tares comes to mind.


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## tell sackett (Jan 13, 2010)

Does this not apply to the man who wrote the article you're referencing?


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## post450 (Jan 13, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> false prophets come as angels of light (Christ). most of what they teach will be sound. its the other small % of doctrine that kills.
> 
> lets take joel osteen.  i have seen his shows and read one of his books...  most of what he preaches is sound. its what he isn;t preaching that is killing his flock, such as sin and repentance. you will never hear him say anything about true repentance or sin... why?
> its not popular...  people do not want to hear about their sins... they want their ears tickled.
> ...



I never said or insinuated that the false prophets would get a free pass. Come down from your soapbox for a minute and read the scripture in Philippians.

What I am trying to relay is that if someone is saved by the Bible/Gospel of Jesus Christ as given by by Hinn, Olsteen, Meyers, or whoever, then Paul indicated we are to rejoice that the Gospel is going forth. Does Hinn not use the Bible? Did The Lord not promise his Word would not return void? 

Nobody is saying we should accept false doctrine, but Paul didn't spend much time ranting against specific people who were false and he obviously realized that people could be truly saved through the Gospel of Christ, even when the messenger had the wrong motives. The bottom line is no matter what someone's motives are or we believe them to be, the Gospel is still sufficient to lead people to Christ and we don't  know how many people have been or will be led to Christ through such efforts.


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## reformedpastor (Jan 13, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> pastor,
> lets focus on his article on tithing for a minute. lets worry about whether he is a Christian or not later...
> 
> if you read his article... and you disagree would you please prove him wrong?
> ...



The point I am making is when a man handles/interprets the word in a way that brings him to conclude that Jesus isn't God or that hellll isn't eternal it brings his method/principles of interpretation into serious question. Which I think is valid to do. 

Also, I want you to understand that critiquing an article like this isn’t easy if done well. Because you’re not just having to address his wording but the underlying presupposition he uses to get his meaning. It’s not as easy as saying this word means this or that. I wish it were but if that were that case we probably wouldn’t have all the error we have now. Interpreting scripture does take work. If done properly its time consuming and that’s why I hesitate to critique it myself. I have plenty to do with the people I pastor. 

But having looked at the article and at first glance the first error that jumps out at me is how he treats the Old and New Testaments. He treats them differently. It looks to me he completely relegates the OT to the people of Israel and the New to Christians which I don't see scripture doing and I would ask is there warrant in the word of God for doing this?? Where does the bible give us permission or where do we have an Apostolic example of this? He treats the bible like two distinct and separate books instead of one continuous unfolded revelation of God, with a beginning and end. 

Example- The author of the article states that nowhere are Christians commanded to tithe. Of course he is only using to the New Testament to arrive at his conclusion. Instead of seeing that command for a tenth has already been given in the Old Testament and still stands unless clearly abrogated in the New. How many times does God need to command it? Once is enough I would think. Understanding this one principle of interpretation the giving we see all throughout the NT is very compatible with the OT. 

1.	Brining your gifts to the temple/ Church 
2.	Levites/minister s–God’s appointed men are responsible for receiving, distributing 
3.	The kingdom of God is funded and the poor and needy among God’s flock are relieved. 
4.	The New Testament does demonstrate a greater responsibility to give because Christ the promised Messiah has arrived and blesses His people beyond measure. Giving is a part of worshiping God. In it we show how that all we have belongs to Him and all we have is because of Him.  Tithing a Tenth is the minimum. But what Christian only wants to do the minimum? 

This is only a start and I don’t think enough to change minds about the tithe. It’s only something to think about. If I can do more I will.

I will say that by and large the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is doing a poor job with its tithe. How many single mothers are having to work and put the children in government anti-god schools because the Church needs a better building or wants to save the Africans instead of helping those in her midst do and be what God has called us to be. 

Save all your hate comments about government schools. If you let Caesar train your children don't be surprised when you get a Roman. 

Grace


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## reformedpastor (Jan 13, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> guys yall can have it. i am simply trying to get more truth on tithing so that i can please God. but if the tithe is not commanded i want to know that too... i dont have all the answers but i am searching. but,
> 
> all yall want to do is attack me.
> 
> ...




I hate you have been treated this way but you have to ask yourself if you have played into it as well. I commend your search for the truth. 

You are commanded to tithe. Its imperative on any who disagree with the tithe to prove from the New Testament where its been abrogated.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 13, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> guys yall can have it. i am simply trying to get more truth on tithing so that i can please God. but if the tithe is not commanded i want to know that too... i dont have all the answers but i am searching. but,
> 
> all yall want to do is attack me.
> 
> ...



Been,
From what you've written it seems clear that you understand exactly what New Testament teachs concerning giving.
Don't you dare allow yourself to be dupped into doubting what is clearly taught.
Here's you another site to look at and ponder.
Sorry, but posting the site is easier than retyping what I've already posted.

http://www.gotquestions.org/tithing-christian.html


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## post450 (Jan 13, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> guys yall can have it. i am simply trying to get more truth on tithing so that i can please God. but if the tithe is not commanded i want to know that too... i dont have all the answers but i am searching. but,
> 
> all yall want to do is attack me.
> 
> ...



BH, I was not trying to change your mind about tithing or dupe you as Ronnie so eloquently put it, but I simply disagreed with the following specific comments:



BeenHuntn said:


> you fail to even consider that many churches are not even Biblical and are not part of the body of Christ. if they are not part of Christ's body... whose body are they a part of?
> 
> every dollar that is "tithed" in those churches... is given to advance the wrong kingdom.
> 
> the Word is quite clear about false prophets and false christs. every nickle given to these hirelings is promoting satan and his false gospel...



I posted a comment as such with scripture to support it. You couldn't argue with that scripture, so in response I get a bunch of scriptures completely out of context. 

I have not attacked you, called you stupid, idiot, or otherwise, just pointed out a flaw in some of your thinking according to the Word. As bold as you have been in most of your rhetoric here, I did not think you would be so quick to take offense. 

My Granny always said people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.


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## reformedpastor (Jan 13, 2010)

post450 said:


> My Granny always said people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks.



Wise Granny!


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## Israel (Jan 13, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I fully agree with most everything you say.  Many Christians give as little as possible.   But they do that whether their church teaches tithing or not.
> 
> Before Christ, people were instructed on exactly how much to give.  They were told "A tenth belongs to the Lord".
> During Jesus' ministry and then throughout the inspired writings Christians were never commanded to tithe(give a certain amount).
> ...



well said


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## thedeacon (Jan 14, 2010)

I keep hearing titheing, tenth, purposing, giving and thats all good and important, even commanded. What we all need to know is; what we have, every little dab of it already belongs to God. He gave it to us and he can, and I believe he will,  take it away. 

Read about the rich fool in Luke 12, or read the parable of the talents in Matt; 25. God doesn't care about money, houses, cars, boats or any other kind of stuff. He does however care how we use that money and stuff.

God cares where our heart is because he knows that is where we will be.

Someone very dear to me ask me one time; Do I really have to attend the church services on Sunday night and do I really have to give money to the church.

My response was this; Absolutely not, you don't have to do anything but my question back to her was this; Why would you not want to do these things, these are things that show how much we love God and it tells God where our heart is. 

Our giving must be a heartfelt sacrifice. Yes I said it a sacrifice, not just money but our time our God given talent etc. etc. there are so many ways we can give to God other than money. Don't forget that it all belongs to God in the first place he has just loaned it to us for a very short time.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 21, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Most of the churches that you attend are already in the process of helping in foreign missions, helping the poor,  the financially needy.  I encourage Christians to support your home congregation's benevolent programs first, then do more on your own.
> There are things that Christians need to do individually rather than as a group.  Help your neighbor.  Help the husband, wife, child on the street who's obviously in need.
> 
> Tithing.  Personally, I don't believe there's such a thing as a 10% tithe for Christians.
> ...



I pretty much agree with this, too.

Another thing, is that we all pay taxes, which supports the poor and needy. So I guess that can be counted in, if you want to.

I tithe at least 10% to my church, and I also give to other groups outside my own church. My church supports a lot of missions, both foreign and homeland.
I try to do other stuff...like help people find furniture or appliances or clothes for their children, etc.

I am personally convicted to tithe....I guess maybe I need structure or something, not sure. But I do much better, emotionally, spiritually and financially when I tithe at least the 10%.


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## tell sackett (Jan 21, 2010)

I was listening to David Jeremiah this morning and his sermon was about giving. I didn't catch all of it but he was talking about the fact that one of Jesus's last acts before passion week began was to go to the temple and watch the people putting money in the temple treasury. Dr. Jeremiah agreed with RonnieT that if Jesus was interested in what people were giving then, He's certainly still interested now.

One thing for sure, whether you believe in tithing or grace giving, God will bless you if you give back to him. You can't outgive God, He's got a bigger shovel!


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## pileit (Jan 21, 2010)

If there is anything more difficult than converting an atheist to christianity, it is teaching stewardship to a christian.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 29, 2010)

pileit said:


> If there is anything more difficult than converting an atheist to christianity, it is teaching stewardship to a christian.



True...we have to rely on the Holy Spirit to 'move' them and pray for wisdom for them.

I do believe that in the NT we can all be convicted to give differently depending on what we have to give.  But we do have to keep the church's lights on, ya know.


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## tell sackett (Jan 31, 2010)

This was part of my daily reading today:
Ex.25:2- Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2010)

The Lord will not receive what is not given freely.
He is in no man's debt...ever.


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## tell sackett (Jan 31, 2010)

He gave me grace, why would I not give back to Him a portion of what is His? Even if I were to wind up sitting in the trash dump scraping my sores with a piece of broken glass, I still have it all.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2010)

reformedpastor said:


> If the word tithe means "a tenth" how could it be more?



Correct...only thing is that 3 tithes (or tenths) are required in the OT.



reformedpastor said:


> And you can only tithe to your church everything else is over and above what is required.



Hmmm..where is that in the OT?



Israel said:


> I believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
> But I don't believe in the trinity.



  Whole nother thread...so I won't go down that path.



Inthegarge said:


> My experience has been that the ones pushing Tithing as OT only don't give anything.



So you know how much I give  I grew up at a church that taught grace giving.  That church has everything it needs and more.  Amazing...don't know how they do it based on your experience.



reformedpastor said:


> I will say that by and large the Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is doing a poor job with its tithe. How many single mothers are having to work and put the children in government anti-god schools because the Church needs a better building or wants to save the Africans instead of helping those in her midst do and be what God has called us to be.
> 
> Save all your hate comments about government schools. If you let Caesar train your children don't be surprised when you get a Roman.
> 
> Grace



We'll agree to disagree on these issues.  Funny you bring up the fact of single mothers and public schools.

It seems that you are more concerned on the action than on the heart of the matter.  Rather than preach legalism, why not preach on the motives and heart of the matter and allow that to change the person and do what they feel God is leading them to do?




reformedpastor said:


> You are commanded to tithe. Its imperative on any who disagree with the tithe to prove from the New Testament where its been abrogated.



Hmmm....just like keeping the Sabbath and the dietary laws.  Amazing how when the NT Church was established in Acts...no mention of a "Tithe."  Also, do you maintain the OT Tithe?  All three of them?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

I can honestly say that the GON Spiritual Forum has changed my mind on an issue.

Can you guys believe it?  Everybody says it doesn't happen.  Well here we are!

I'm not 100% yet.  But reading through the posts and doing a WHOLE BUNCH of research on my own, I am coming to the conclusion that the tithe is no longer required.

My issue, though, is that there are too many people who then use that argument as an excuse to not give.  If anything IMO, loosing us from that requirement puts MORE burden on us to give.  We are to give out of the abundance of what we've been given...I dare say that 10% is just a starting point.  That's kind of scary and hard to swallow, I will admit.

Again though, this is not a deal breaker kind of issue for me.  I would guess that 99% of the folks who are in my local church family would think I'm crazy for saying that the tithe isn't a requirement.  Heck, my own wife thought I was nuts until we sat down and really talked through it and considered what the NT has to say on the issue.


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## gtparts (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I can honestly say that the GON Spiritual Forum has changed my mind on an issue.
> 
> Can you guys believe it?  Everybody says it doesn't happen.  Well here we are!
> 
> ...



Spend enough time searching out issues and you will find they are ALL heart issues. Every action and inaction, every thought has spiritual ramifications. Those who can't see it, I believe, have stopped short in their search.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I can honestly say that the GON Spiritual Forum has changed my mind on an issue.
> 
> Can you guys believe it?  Everybody says it doesn't happen.  Well here we are!
> 
> ...





Yes.....I can honestly say, you've been swayed to the right side 

Funny, that those who believe in the Tithe being Biblical always point out that people use Grace Giving as an excuse not to give and give less.

But really, you are right.  We are required to give out of our hearts.  We are required to meet the needs of those in need.  So...you hold a Bible Study in your home.  No monetary amount...but it fills a need.  A family has a newborn and needs a meal...you bring them by something...no Monetary amount..but it fills a need.  A young couple in your church is getting married and you have an old washer/dryer you're getting rid of that you give to them.  No Monetary amount...but it fills a need.

The problem you face when you put a "Tithe" in place is that you cause so many "what ifs."  Just like the Scribes & Pharisees in the day.  So many laws just to keep the law....and you lose sight of the true meaning.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> My issue, though, is that there are too many people who then use that argument as an excuse to not give.



Same here.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

Let me say this though.....in NO WAY do I agree with most of what that wacko said in the article that BH posted.

BH, that's not an attack on you buddy.  I just think that guy is off his rocker based on the way he approached his "research" and "logic".


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> My issue, though, is that there are too many people who then use that argument as an excuse to not give.  .





centerpin fan said:


> Same here.



Okay..I'm curious.

I hear this excuse...reasoning for tithe all the time.  Wondering if you actually know someone who believes in grace giving and then uses it as an excuse not to give?

Do you really personally know someone? or is it just from stories you've heard from others?  I've never met someone who believes in grace giving and uses it as an excuse to not give to the church.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

If they believe in it, then they don't use that argument....that's the point.


Most I'm talking about have simply HEARD the argument and adapt it to suit their needs.  

"The NT says we are not required to tithe anymore.." is typically how it goes.  Many say, "I can serve and that's just as good".  While it is, they are using it as an excuse to not also give money to the church simply because they just want to keep it all IMO.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 1, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Do you really personally know someone?



I'm one of the guys who actually counts the weekly contribution.  I do it for my church now, and I've done it for churches I've attended in the past.  So, yes, I actually know people like this.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Most I'm talking about have simply HEARD the argument and adapt it to suit their needs.
> 
> "The NT says we are not required to tithe anymore.." is typically how it goes.  Many say, "I can serve and that's just as good".  While it is, they are using it as an excuse to not also give money to the church simply because they just want to keep it all IMO.



Ditto.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> "The NT says we are not required to tithe anymore.." is typically how it goes.  Many say, "I can serve and that's just as good".  While it is, they are using it as an excuse to not also give money to the church simply because they just want to keep it all IMO.





centerpin fan said:


> Ditto.



Interesting.  Wonder if Simon the Tanner in Acts 9-10 gave any "money" to the church?  He did however give Peter a place to stay and fed him.

Wonder if that is good enough?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

I didn't say you HAVE to give money.  I just think that if you have the ability and you are blessed financially (as many MANY of us are), then you should also give out of that blessing. Follow me?

No, no "type" of giving is required.  But what is required is giving as you're led.  Churches need money to operate.  That's just life.  

What I'm saying is the cop out of "Well, I don't HAVE to give money" is just that...it's a cop out.  Tell me truthfully....do you think God doesn't expect a monetary contribution from you if you can give it?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting.  Wonder if Simon the Tanner in Acts 9-10 gave any "money" to the church?  He did however give Peter a place to stay and fed him.
> 
> Wonder if that is good enough?



Are you under the impression that he never gave of his wages?  Ever?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 1, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Wonder if that is good enough?



I'd say so.  We certainly have members like that.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Churches need money to operate.  That's just life.
> 
> What I'm saying is the cop out of "Well, I don't HAVE to give money" is just that...it's a cop out.  Tell me truthfully....do you think God doesn't expect a monetary contribution from you if you can give it?



Not all Churches need money to operate.  The church that I currently attend has no expenses (well...I take that back, we've paid for incorporation and 501c3 filing which has amounted to a small amount of money).  We keep a small amount of offerings for things like above, but the majority of any offerings are used towards missions.  Also, members are encouraged to give directly to missions as they feel led.



Huntinfool said:


> Are you under the impression that he never gave of his wages?  Ever?



Not sure.  We'll never know as the Bible doesn't tell us.




The thing is that it seems as if the church today is driven by money.  To build a bigger building.  To hire another pastor.  To put in a new pipe organ.  To build a new Nursery.  To fund an outreach program.

All are good things..but are they necessary?  Why not have members give of themselves?  Why not have members/elders step up and teach and go to visitation so that another pastor is not needed?  Why doesn't the youth group or a member cut the grass so that a lawn service doesn't need to be hired?

Isn't time money?  So are people who just give money, trying to feel involved without being involved?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 1, 2010)

Are you intentionally trying to miss my point or are we just having a good day?

Here's my bottom line: If you do not give money to the church (or missions....or whatever part of God's work you choose) because you sincerely feel that God has led you to serve rather than give financially, then so be it and you will get no condemnation from me.

If, however, you "serve" as a means of circumventing giving monetarily, then you are no better than Annanias and Saphira (and yes, I'm aware that I just butchered those names again).  They were not killed because they held the money back...they were killed because they sought to essentially lie to God.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2010)

I gotcha HF...just trying to get everyone to re-think the traditions that have been taught for so long.  I think you are on the right page.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 1, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Not all Churches need money to operate.  The church that I currently attend has no expenses (well...I take that back, we've paid for incorporation and 501c3 filing which has amounted to a small amount of money).  We keep a small amount of offerings for things like above, but the majority of any offerings are used towards missions.  Also, members are encouraged to give directly to missions as they feel led.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree.  I see many families who seem to have a good sense of giving monetarily but cannot be counted on for anything else dealing with the Lord's church.
They're too busy.


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## Tunacash (Feb 6, 2010)

*Funny!*



Tony Two Tone said:


> This topic reminds me of a story of the pastor in a small western town. He preached faithfully each Sunday and vigilantly cared for his flock.  He was a very thin man who also loved his horse and took very good care of it.
> 
> One Sunday after church a lady from the walked up to the pastor and said, why are you so thin and undernourished while your horse is so well maintained?   He gently replied you see… I love my horse and take very good care of him. And you and the rest of this congregation take care of me.



how true!


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## Tunacash (Feb 6, 2010)

Realistically it takes money to operate a church or a ministry, and I feel that you feed your family first. You wouldn't feed someone elses kids if yours didn't have food for your own.  Sometimes it's easy to get caught up on the word "membership" I believe that you should tithe to your home church. My wife and I have attended our church for a few years now and we have sent money to different churches and ministries but we feel it is an honor and at the same time our duty to support out church.  When we tithe we put a seed in the hands of our church leadership and I trust the
 to invest that seed on the area that needs it( might be a missionary, bills, or hot dogs for vacation bible school)

there are many ways to interpret what the bible says about tithing...I sort of look at that 10% is my tithe and whatever I give the lord over that is my offering. So in some ways 
I give my tithe and offering to my church and if I feel that the lord wants me to give to another ministry it is an offering above what I have already given to my church. 

Really interesting thread glad to see the different views on this subject


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