# Old trusty wont hold a group?



## BassHunter25 (Aug 9, 2019)

I’ve Got a ruger m77 7mm mag from early 90’s bought used. Have had same leupold vx1 for twenty years. Always been on never had any problems. I missed a buck a couple seasons ago, which was a long slitghly difficult shot. But as usual after a miss I shot at the range. The gun was off a good 6x6 inches so made a minor adjustment and shot again and it went the other way nearly the same. Then shot again without adjusting and it hits bullseye. I’ve changed ammo tightened everything from scope mounts which weren’t loose to screws on stock which were able to turn a little. Still the same situation when I shoot. I might hit true on the first shot but the second would be a flyer then third the opposite direction. I’ve maintained the gun cleaning with standard wire brush and solvent at the end of the seasons. I’m the 30 years I’ve had the gun I can’t imagine I’ve put more than 60 reds through it. 
Any ideas?


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## Gator89 (Aug 9, 2019)

My first thought is check the scope.  

Rugers may not be bench rest guns, but my 77 in 270 has stayed consistent since I adopted it in 1994.


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## au7126 (Aug 9, 2019)

Had the same problem with a new 7 mag Ruger. Crazy that it would be spot on and the next 2 rounds would be 6" low and 6" high. Gunsmith suggested muzzle brake and no improvement. Sent Leupold back for check out and no problem there. I finally sold to fellow and told him problem. He said he could hand load and fix the group. I want a new gun to shoot ammo bought across counter and tried several different manufacturer before selling. Ruger would not do anything because I had added the brake.


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## model88_308 (Aug 9, 2019)

If possible, try using a mechanical boresigter (collimator). Check the back and forth movement of the reticle as you're adjusting it to see if it seems to be tracking evenly. Then give the scope a couple of hits with your hand and see if the reticle jumps from that. 

While I've never sent a Leupold back for repair, I've sent several, like 5-6, in for reticle changes. They are very efficient and their customer service is absolutely top notch.


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## Dbender (Aug 9, 2019)

Bad scope


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## BassHunter25 (Aug 9, 2019)

model88_308 said:


> If possible, try using a mechanical boresigter (collimator). Check the back and forth movement of the reticle as you're adjusting it to see if it seems to be tracking evenly. Then give the scope a couple of hits with your hand and see if the reticle jumps from that.
> 
> While I've never sent a Leupold back for repair, I've sent several, like 5-6, in for reticle changes. They are very efficient and their customer service is absolutely top notch.



Should I buy a collimator?  Or just buy a new scope? Honestly I wouldn’t mind upgrading the scope. 
Is that the only way to figure out if the scope is bad?


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## model88_308 (Aug 9, 2019)

BassHunter25 said:


> Should I buy a collimator?  Or just buy a new scope? Honestly I wouldn’t mind upgrading the scope.
> Is that the only way to figure out if the scope is bad?



If you're not against the idea of upgrading your scope, I'd go ahead and buy a new one and then send that scope into Leupold to check and service it. They will repair it, or replace it with a like model.

And a great deal on a replacement would be the VX-R 3-9x40 on sale right now at Midway for $399. Firedot Duplex reticle.


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## lagrangedave (Aug 9, 2019)

Is that a Vortex ?


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## Hillbilly stalker (Aug 9, 2019)

It sounds like a scope or loose mount problem but..........I have seen people over tighten the fore arm screw on a rifle and make it do stupid stuff. Quickest easiest cheapest thing is to check that screw, maybe loosen it half a turn if it's seems tight, and go shoot 3-5 rounds. Minus a serious drop or damage, a Leupold usually holds true. If that doesn't do it, try another scope. A 7 mm bucks pretty hard.


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## model88_308 (Aug 9, 2019)

lagrangedave said:


> Is that a Vortex ?



The scope? That's a Leupold VX-R, illuminated reticle. I have seven of them. Great scopes. I've sold Zeiss Conquest to buy more VX-Rs.


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## Gunpowder (Aug 9, 2019)

If it were mine I would’not give up on the scope yet. First thing I would do is take some fingernail polish (Red or white) and put a dab on the rear ring and scope. What you want is to form a seal between the ring and scope. Then shoot it. If the scope moves it will crack the seal. If that happens then remove the scope rings, clean them, clean the screws and reinstall-an inch lb wrench would be great such as the Caldwell. That doesn’t work loosen the base screws and tighten again-Caldwell in lb. if all that proves ok then I would get a new scope. I am assuming that you have not messed with the action screws. That’s a whole different ballgame.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 9, 2019)

Sounds like the scope has some internal issues. Leupold will fix or replace it, just email them for an RMA number. One of my 20-25 year old scopes had similar issues, the seals and whatnot had apparently dry-rotted over the years.


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## saltysenior (Aug 11, 2019)

I have a Ruger 77ul in .270 ,bought in '86....been thru ammo , scope , stock , and every thing else....a good looking rifle ,but can't get it to group....


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## nmurph (Aug 11, 2019)

Start with checking all screws are torqued to specs,especially the action screws. Check that the barrel if free floated, most guns benefit from this and you may have some debris in e
bail channel. If that doesn't solve the problem, then borrow a scope and try it out.
You can send the scope to Leupold and they will go through it at no charge. You will re receive complete report. Any fixable problems will be corrected.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 11, 2019)

why not send the scope off to Leupold anyway to be checked out?  It is not like it is going to set you back an arm in a leg


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## jglenn (Aug 12, 2019)

If everything is tight, then the scope is the most likely culprit.  As noted leupold will fix it.. if you want a new scope and don't want to break the bank, check out the Leopold freedom series. Excellent quality for the price these days.. right aroumd $200. Still made in the USA


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## Buckstop (Aug 12, 2019)

If you have a scope on another rifle I'd swap it out to rule out the scope or not. Or send it back to Leupold.  I got a new VX 3i last year that I put on a rifle that was shooting good with a cheap Vortex and it shifted POI on every shot by 1 to 3 inches. Re-mounted & torqued it several times with no improvement. Put the Vortex back on and it was back to .75 inch or less groups. Sent it back to Leupold.  They went thru it and said they found nothing off but when it came back it shot great.  They have good service and were pretty quick about it too.


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## nmurph (Aug 12, 2019)

I have a Vari-X II that I sent back recently bc the power ring was extremely difficult to twist.  It was back in a couple of weeks with a comprehensive printout of the testing. The power ring was repaired but the report stated no problems were found...no cost other than what USPS charged to get it there.


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## lonewolf247 (Aug 12, 2019)

This is what I would do.  You mentioned you might be interested in a new scope?  I'd buy the new scope, and send the other one back for repair/assessment. That seems to be what many are replying, and I agree.


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## Jester896 (Aug 13, 2019)

yeah
Leupold ain't perfect...i have sent the same New Leupold back 3 times because it wouldn't hold zero like you describe...3rd time I got a different serial number back.


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## BassHunter25 (Aug 13, 2019)

nmurph said:


> I have a Vari-X II that I sent back recently bc the power ring was extremely difficult to twist.  It was back in a couple of weeks with a comprehensive printout of the testing. The power ring was repaired but the report stated no problems were found...no cost other than what USPS charged to get it there.



That’s one reason I was thinking if changing anyway. The power adjustment has always been tight. It was never a big deal but I always had to be ready for a quick adjustment. I always thought it would loosen up the more I used it. It never has. 

Thanks for all the responses. I have an old tasco I’m going to try and see if it’s the gun or the scope.


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## killerv (Aug 14, 2019)

maybe ol trusty's owner is a little rusty


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## BeerThirty (Aug 14, 2019)

First thing I would do is check the scope. If you have another functional scope at your dispose, put it on the rifle you're having issues with to serve as a control to see if it's the Leupold or the gun. 

I seriously highly doubt it's the ammo.

Another thing with the gun is make sure you are not resting the actual barrel of the gun on the rest when you are sighting in. Instead, it should be your stock.  I did not know this until recently but there are several videos online that really opened up my eyes about how much this really can impact accuracy.

Lastly, check where your barrel meets the receiver. My dad had an old Remington semi-auto odd-six that actually cracked right there.  He was having the exact same problems as you until he literally inspected it with a magnifying glass.  It was a hairline crack but sure enough with a little pressure it actually caused the barrel to bend.


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## BassHunter25 (Aug 14, 2019)

killerv said:


> maybe ol trusty's owner is a little rusty



That’s probably true but I am testing on a led sled to take away most human error.


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## Big7 (Aug 14, 2019)

Gator89 said:


> My first thought is check the scope.
> 
> Rugers may not be bench rest guns, but my 77 in 270 has stayed consistent since I adopted it in 1994.



I digress. I have 2 Ruger long arms left. I did sell a beautiful, walnut .338 Win Mag about 3 years ago (and I regret that to this day) they ALL shoot MOA.

I'd be checking rings and scope. Ruger mounts are BY FAR THE BEST THERE IS but they will only fit Ruger.

Then, I would look at a thoroughly cleaning the barrel for copper fouling and any other fouling.

Then I'd check the crown.

All severely bottle neck, sometimes called over bore - rifle barrels are subject to throat burn.
ESPECIALLY large caliber rounds that burn a LOT of a slower powder. 7MM Rem. Mag. Fits that category.

Then I'd check the THROAT
if it's been shot a lot, it is very possible the throat is shot out. If it is, free bore in 1/8 inch increments up to three times.

If that don't fix it you need a new barrel. Assuming the scope and rings are ruled out.

I'm a Rugerholic. I can honestly say I know a LOT about Ruger rifles and sidearms. That ain't bragging- it's the truth.


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## nmurph (Aug 15, 2019)

60 rounds means the barrel isn't shot out.

OP says screws were tightened...if they were CORRECTLY TORQUED, then we can eliminate that. 

It could be a carbon ring, but with only 60 rounds I don't think so. 

I'm back to checking that the stock isn't putting pressure on the stock or that the scope is the problem.


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## rattlesnake1 (Aug 15, 2019)

something is loose , or binding


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## KyDawg (Aug 18, 2019)

I might be too simple here, but I would take the scope off and shoot the target with the iron sights. If it is still moving around, it is not the scope.


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## BassHunter25 (Aug 22, 2019)

Big7 said:


> I digress. I have 2 Ruger long arms left. I did sell a beautiful, walnut .338 Win Mag about 3 years ago (and I regret that to this day) they ALL shoot MOA.
> 
> I'd be checking rings and scope. Ruger mounts are BY FAR THE BEST THERE IS but they will only fit Ruger.
> 
> ...



You lost me on a lot of this. But the gun was used when I got it. I really don’t know how much it was shot before I put 60-80 rounds through. 

What’s the best thing for cooper fouling. I’m gonna try the scooe
Thing first. I have leupold rings and bases. And they aren’t loose. 

I did notice a good scratch on the scope
That I don’t where it came from. Hopefully something happened to the scope. But I don’t know how to check all the other stuff you talked about.


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## Big7 (Aug 22, 2019)

BassHunter25 said:


> You lost me on a lot of this. But the gun was used when I got it. I really don’t know how much it was shot before I put 60-80 rounds through.
> 
> What’s the best thing for cooper fouling. I’m gonna try the scooe
> Thing first. I have leupold rings and bases. And they aren’t loose.
> ...



Any of the Hoppe's line is good stuff as are most of the "name brand". If you really need some serious, aggressive solutions, try a STEEL brush as opposed to brass or nylon bristle brushes. They are fine for a good measure finishing routine. And, no matter what you may have heard, a 3 or 4 aggressive cleanings with a steel brush over the lifetime of the rifle won't hurt a dang thing. You may also find a jag useful. It's just a solid brass plug a few thousands of an inch larger than the bore. It takes some force to get it seated in to a particular land and groove. They are fluted to facilitate a little less force to seat vs a solid plug. First, go through your regular cleaning regiment, followed by what I've described above. Then go with the steel brush/jag. The gunpowder and lead will be the first to come out. Then get to the copper. Just follow the directions on the bottle. When the last few patches come back clean, you are done. If I can be of anymore help, post or PM me. Be glad to help as much as I can.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Aug 22, 2019)

CVA makes a gel called " Barrel blaster". It's made for muzzle loaders but I've had great luck by lubing the barrel real good and letting it sit for awhile before a good scrubbing. The gel works much better than the foam in my experience. It removes copper, carbon, rust and plastic fowling and gunpowder. A brass brush on a cleaning rod inserted in a dewalt drill will work wonders.


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## Jester896 (Aug 22, 2019)

Big7 said:


> You may also find a jag useful. It's just a solid brass plug a few thousands of an inch larger than the bore. It takes some force to get it seated in to a particular land and groove.



say what?

BassHunter25
I use Montana Extreme for copper removal and nylon brushes so you don't get false postives for copper like you do with bronze/brass brushes


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## Big7 (Aug 22, 2019)

Jester896 said:


> say what?
> 
> BassHunter25
> I use Montana Extreme for copper removal and nylon brushes so you don't get false postives for copper like you do with bronze/brass brushes



Maybe you didn't see all my post' in this thread and/or others. I clearly stated nylon bristle brushes were good for the final brushing. Right before you run patches until the patches come back clean.


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## nmurph (Aug 22, 2019)

????


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## Jester896 (Aug 22, 2019)

Big7 said:


> You may also find a jag useful. It's just a solid brass plug a few thousands of an inch larger than the bore. It takes some force to get it seated in to a particular land and groove.



proper sized jags are not larger than the bore diameter...and you should not force an oversized jag down your barrel


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## Bobby Linton (Aug 23, 2019)

I'm still learning, just have a general accuracy question for the experts.  If a gun goes from shooting well to a shotgun pattern is a dirty barrel really going to do that?  Accuracy is such a ambiguous term.  To me, 2" groups at 100 yards is fine for the hunting I'm doing.  To a bench rest shooter, 2" would be well past time to get a new barrel.  So accurate for one man isn't the same as another and when we talk about groups opening up it may not mean the same thing.  I would assume 99 percent of high power rifle owners NEVER shoot out a barrel from use.  A dirty barrel will make your groups worse but not shotgun like, will it?  If a decent gun starts to really wander, something has come loose, warped a pressure point, or damage to crown of muzzle. Even when we hear people say "my rifle didnt like "x" ammo" they are really saying that got a smaller group with another brand.  In reality they may be saying they can only shoot 3" groups at 100 yards with "x" brand ammo.  If you cant keep it on the target something more fundamental must be wrong.


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## nmurph (Aug 23, 2019)

Every barrel is different but accuracy tends to degrade slowly with a barrel that is getting dirty. 

The original post sounds like either something is loose with the action (OP says it is tightened down, but overtighten can be as bad as loose), a pressure point, or something is wrong with the scope.


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## BassHunter25 (Aug 23, 2019)

nmurph said:


> Every barrel is different but accuracy tends to degrade slowly with a barrel that is getting dirty.
> 
> The original post sounds like either something is loose with the action (OP says it is tightened down, but overtighten can be as bad as loose), a pressure point, or something is wrong with the scope.



When checking all the scope mounts they wouldn’t tighten at all with moderate force. And the gun has been a tac driver with same scope and mounts for over 15 years till recently. 

I noticed a scratch on the scope along with the some scratches on the scope cover and the leupold embelem missing on the front of scope cover. Tells me something happened to the scope I don’t know about. It’s possible someone dropped my gun at hunting camp and didn’t tell me. Still waiting to get time to change scope and check it out.


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## Big7 (Aug 23, 2019)

Jester896 said:


> proper sized jags are not larger than the bore diameter...and you should not force an oversized jag down your barrel



I think I either misstated or you misunderstood. I'm thinking you are talking about the jags with the pointed tip to be used with a patch. Right?

I should have made myself a little clearer.
I'm talking about the true jag and it's original intent. The old style were made to contact as much of the grooves and lands and forcefully "jag" the bore to scrape as opposed to being a carrier for a patch. I indeed have a drawer full of old-school jags that measure .002 inch over the bore diameter. They have a lot of thin flutes so they will go without much pressure. The run of the mill today are brass or plastic designed to carry a patch. I've not found any use for the type. Sorry about the confusion. I should have addressed this eariler in the thread.


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## Jester896 (Aug 23, 2019)

Big7 said:


> I think I either misstated or you misunderstood. I'm thinking you are talking about the jags with the pointed tip to be used with a patch. Right?
> 
> I should have made myself a little clearer.
> I'm talking about the true jag and it's original intent. The old style were made to contact as much of the grooves and lands and forcefully "jag" the bore to scrape as opposed to being a carrier for a patch. I indeed have a drawer full of old-school jags that measure .002 inch over the bore diameter. They have a lot of thin flutes so they will go without much pressure. The run of the mill today are brass or plastic designed to carry a patch. I've not found any use for the type. Sorry about the confusion. I should have addressed this eariler in the thread.



yes sir, the common type that you find today along with plenty of pictures when you do an internet search.  the same type I have used for 50 years.  I have never heard of the type you describe.  With today's chemical cleaners there is no need to scrape a rifle barrel in that fashion. There are situations that I have found it necessary to wrap a nylon brush with a piece of gray scotchbrite to get the carbon people who never clean a rifle and now claim it no longer shoots.


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## Big7 (Aug 23, 2019)

Jester896 said:


> yes sir, the common type that you find today along with plenty of pictures when you do an internet search.  the same type I have used for 50 years.  I have never heard of the type you describe.  With today's chemical cleaners there is no need to scrape a rifle barrel in that fashion. There are situations that I have found it necessary to wrap a nylon brush with a piece of gray scotchbrite to get the carbon people who never clean a rifle and now claim it no longer shoots.


I've used that and what we used to call a BRITE BOY in the tool, die and mold industry. It has the consistency of a pencil eraser but impregnated with the grit of your choice. They work good too.. Not hard to get. MSC in Mableton has plenty. They also have a will call for pick up- or, you can order online and have it delivered to your house or shop. Very good supply house. If they don't have it, you don't need it.?They are reasonable due to their massive buying power.


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## Jester896 (Aug 24, 2019)

VFG Intensive Pellets may work as well if not better than that and they are soft.  They make jags for them for Dewey Rods as well as others.


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