# Pre Chosen to be Saved ?



## Lowjack

Some Christians think ,they are the cause of their own salvation but does the Bible teach that if you are saved is because G-d Chose you to be saved ?

For many are called, but few [are] chosen.” (Matthew 22:14, KJV)

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,  before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” (Jeremiah 1:5 NIV)

“In love He  predestined  us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,…” (Eph. 1:5, NASB)

“To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive.” (Mark 4:10-12, NASB)

For those whom He foreknew, He also  predestined  to become conformed to the image of His Son, and these whom He  predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified.” (Rom. 8:28-30, NASB)

“… but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God  predestined  before the ages to our glory; …” (1Co. 2:7, NASB)

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.” (Romans 9:15-18, NIV)

“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.” (Acts 13:48, ESV)


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## JB0704

Here 'ya go.....

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=636168&highlight=the+elect

1,077 posts before it got locked down.


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## barryl

*Chosen ?*



JB0704 said:


> Here 'ya go.....
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=636168&highlight=the+elect
> 
> 1,077 posts before it got locked down.


Romans 8:29 It's privately interpreted regularly any way you want. One of the MODS, HARRIS can fill you in.


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## JB0704

barryl said:


> Romans 8:29 It's privately interpreted regularly any way you want. One of the MODS, HARRIS can fill you in.



Could you clarify?  I don't get the "crazy" emoticon.


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## jmharris23

barryl said:


> romans 8:29 it's privately interpreted regularly any way you want. One of the mods, harris can fill you in.



Well ok....


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## rjcruiser

Lowjack said:


> does the Bible teach that if you are saved is because G-d Chose you to be saved ?



Yes.


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## rockman7

my view is God(sorry lowjack....i be gentile ). God created mankind(or the race of man) to be/have something no other creature would have. that being a personal one on one relationship with Him like no other.hence the reason moses was able to take to Him "face to face as a friend".

in other words, thru adam God chose the whole race of man to rule and reign with Him, to be able to fellowship with him as no angel, or any other creature in creation could ever do.....to be equal in a sence(not in power). but....thru/because of our downfall in sin man now has to go thru a mediator.

and now because of this situation even tho "all" are called only those who answer that call are "eligble" to assume that status again.for example .... if every one here won a new gun from the editors of GON and only a few showed up was it GON's fault only a few showed up? was that thier intention all along?as the winners of the new gun did we have to do something to win "and" recieve that gun? 

as for God knowing "pharoah" would be there. i think we read too much into that. remember "pharoah" is a title, like our president. it merely meant God knew because of the fallen nature of man that at that appointed time there would be a man (a pharoah) who would oppose him. it does not mean God allowed a woman to give birth to a specific child who would grow up to be appointed soley for that position so He could destroy him.

the same applies to the judas,the antichrist, ect.. God calls everyone for His porpose, which is life more abundant.

sorry if this is a ramble...its'a huge subject and not fit to be described in a forum.

in a nutshell "everyone", from adam to now was chosen to be the "elect". we chose not to and now we have to "chose" to come back and assume that position once again


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## CollinsCraft77

The simple answer is yes. I mean you put down just a few examples where it says it. Why people argue or deny it kills me. 

I'm sorry. It's just plain black and white for me. Simple


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## Artfuldodger

Early Church views:
    110-165AD Justin Martyr "We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for." (Justin First Apology chap. 43)
    185-255 AD Origen "He makes Himself known to those who, after doing all that their powers will allow, confess that they need help from Him." (Origen Against Celsus bk. 7, chap. 42)
    190 AD Clement of Alexandria "A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace." (Clement Salvation of the Rich Man chap. 21)
    190 AD Clement of Alexandria "Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary." (Clement Miscellanies bk. 1, chap. 17)
    250-300 AD Archelaus "All the creatures that God made, He made very good. And He gave to every individual the sense of free will, by which standard He also instituted the law of judgment.... And certainly whoever will, may keep the commandments. Whoever despises them and turns aside to what is contrary to them, shall yet without doubt have to face this law of judgment.... There can be no doubt that every individual, in using his own proper power of will, may shape his course in whatever direction he pleases." (Archelaus Disputation With Manes sees. 32, 33)
    260-315 AD Methodius "Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the unavoidable necessities of fate, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils. " (Methodius The Banquet of the Ten Virgins discourse 8, chap. 16)


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## Artfuldodger

God calls, you come(or not):
John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

John 15:7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Romans 2:10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain [it]. 25 And everyone who competes [for] [the] [prize] is temperate in all things. Now they [do] [it] to obtain a perishable crown, but we [for] an imperishable [crown].

1 Timothy 6:12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. 13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and [before] Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep [this] commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing.

2 Timothy 2:21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.

1 John 5:1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.


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## Artfuldodger

Notice the use of anyone or everyone used a lot in the Bible when talking about "WHO" can and will be saved.
Notice the use of the word "YOU" used a lot in the Bible when talking about what "YOU" as an individual must do to be saved.  

    Mark 16:16 "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

    John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

    Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

    1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may [continue] [to] believe in the name of the Son of God.

    Isaiah 45:22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I [am] God, and [there] [is] no other."

    Mark 1:15 "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel."

    Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent."

    Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" And let him who hears say, "Come!" And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

    Matthew 11:28 "Come to Me, all [you] who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

    John 7:37 On the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."


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## Artfuldodger

"YOUR FAITH" is used a lot in the Bible:
 John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you."

Matthew 9:22 But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, "Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well."

Matthew 9:29 Then He touched their eyes, saying, "According to your faith let it be to you."

Matthew 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said to her, "O woman, great [is] your faith! Let it be to you as you desire." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

Mark 2:5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven you."

Mark 5:34 And He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has made you well. Go in peace, and be healed of your affliction."

Mark 10:52 Then Jesus said to him, "Go your way; your faith has made you well." And immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus on the road.

Luke 7:50 Then He said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace."

Luke 8:48 And He said to her, "Daughter, be of good cheer; your faith has made you well. Go in peace."

Luke 17:19 And He said to him, "Arise, go your way. Your faith has made you well."

Luke 18:42 Then Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has made you well." 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed Him, glorifying God. And all the people, when they saw [it], gave praise to God.

John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.


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## Artfuldodger

God doesn't make you believe in him or Jesus. He did give you a mind, body, & spirit for you to use to serve him if you believe.
You have to become a believer it's your choice.
    1 John 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

    Acts 15:11 "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

    Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."

    Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

    Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.

    Romans 9:33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

    Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Galatians 2:16 "knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified."

    Galatians 3:22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor [to] [bring] [us] to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

    Ephesians 1:13 In Him you also [trusted], after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

    1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

    2 Thessalonians 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


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## Artfuldodger

God Desires all Mankind to be Saved and Know the Truth and if you teach the Lost against this it will persuade them not to Seek the Truth. (Why bother, i'm sure a sinner like me won't be Chosen)

    1 Timothy 2:3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For [there] [is] one God and one Mediator between God and men, [the] Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

    1 Timothy 4:10 For to this [end] we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is [the] Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

    2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning [His] promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

    John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

    1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

    1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son [as] Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

    John 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

    John 4:41 And many more believed because of His own word. 42 Then they said to the woman, "Now we believe, not because of what you said, for we ourselves have heard [Him] and we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world."

    Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; We have turned, every one, to his own way; And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.

    Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them: `[As] I live,' says the Lord God, `I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

    Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

    Hebrews 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for] [all].

    2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son.

http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm#7


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## Artfuldodger

It is inconsistent with the Bible

    There are over a hundred verses that say salvation is offered to everyone. For example, 1 John 2:2 says, "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours, but also for the sins of the whole world."

    The Bible says God desires the salvation of those who are perishing. For example, 2 Peter 3:9 says, "He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

    The Bible says people are going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - against God’s will. For example, 1 Corinthians 15:34 says, "For there are some who are ignorant of God--I say this to your shame."

    The Bible says people are perishing because no one has brought them the message. Hosea 4:6 says, "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge."

    ·   Selective Salvationists say God "hates" all of the non-elect. Yet, when the rich young ruler turned his back on Jesus, the Bible said Jesus "loved" him.

    Selective Salvationists say before God created the universe, He selected certain people to go to Heaven and the rest go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Yet, the Bible says - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - was created for the fallen angels, not us (Matthew 25:41).

    Selective Salvationists say the core of this doctrine is the sovereignty of God and His complete control over everything. He dictates every action that takes place. They say God would not be in complete control if man had a choice in his destiny. There are three problems with this view:

        There are hundred of verses in the Bible that clearly show God changing His mind and altering His plans because of our actions or inactions.

        There are many evil and sinful things going on in the world. Do we really want to say God forcibly made people commit these heinous acts?

        We cannot be held accountable for our sins if we have no say or choice in any of our actions. It would be unjust to send a person to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - for something he did not choose to do.

    Selective Salvationists say God preplanned people’s lives (forced them to become Christians and perform great services for Him). If this were true, you would think He would have planned lives that would consistently glorify Him. Instead, we find many of His leaders (Saul, David, Samson, Solomon, etc) made some major blunders and had their years of service cut short.

    There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to seek Him. If some are incapable of seeking God, why did He make that command? For example, Hebrews 11:6 says, "He rewards those who earnestly seek him."

    God said to the whole Nation of Israel, "Seek me and live" (Amos 5:4). God was offering his plan of salvation to the whole Nation of Israel. Yet the Bible clearly says not all of the Israelites became believers. This means many of the people God wanted to go to Heaven ended up going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.

    The Bible says we can resist God. For example, Matthew 23:37 says, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing." This means some people were resisting God’s call to salvation. It also means some people went to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - against His desire.

    There are dozens of verses where God commands the world to repent. If some people are incapable of repenting, why did He make that command? For example, Acts 17:30 says, "He [God] commands all people everywhere to repent."

    There are dozens of verses that talk about how we can be easily led astray from God and salvation. This shows our eternal destinies have not been pre-planned.

    The Bible says our surroundings can greatly influence our eternal destiny. For example, Matthew 19:24 says, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to go to Heaven"

    Why did Jesus have to suffer such a terrible spiritual - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -ation? If there is no choice in our spiritual destiny, then our spiritual "test" (and subsequent failures) could easily have been bypassed. There was no need for us to be lost and ultimately redeemed. There was no need for Jesus to suffer such a brutal, humiliating, and despicable punishment.


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## hobbs27

CollinsCraft77 said:


> The simple answer is yes. I mean you put down just a few examples where it says it. Why people argue or deny it kills me.
> 
> I'm sorry. It's just plain black and white for me. Simple



Of your family do you know the ones that are predestined and which are not?


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## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> The simple answer is yes. I mean you put down just a few examples where it says it. Why people argue or deny it kills me.
> 
> I'm sorry. It's just plain black and white for me. Simple



I'm the fellow who stands at the other end of the corridor in disagreement with the "pre-chosen" stand.

My friend Artfuldodger has posted about 3,586 scripture that don't make sense if God had already chosen.

If pre-chosen, Paul wasted tears as he mourned over his fellow Jews who would not accept Jesus as God's son.

Stephen died for no reason.

God chose alright, but He chose those who would believe.
In Acts 2, later verses, God was adding to the church, 'those who were saved'.

"Pre-chosen" is modern thinking mingled in with God's word.
It doesn't make sense in the context of Jesus' coming into the world.
It makes a mockery of the true relationship God wants with those who believe and love Him.

"Pre-chosen" means there is no prodigal son!  The father always knew the son would return.  As a matter of fact, it would mean the father even forced the son to leave in the first place.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> My friend Artfuldodger has posted about 3,586 scripture that don't make sense if God had already chosen.



Artfuldodger copied and pasted an argument for a man centered, free will works religion. One that presents to us a god who is not determined to save and a christ who will never see the travail of his soul and be satisfied.

A summary of what was said is "God has done all He can do, now the rest is up to you." See the contradiction?


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> A summary of what was said is "God has done all He can do, now the rest is up to you." See the contradiction?



Not if the choice is by design.  You are forcing God's hand, by declaring what he must be, and what he must do.  The Calvinist approach sets God's parameters without considering that God may not work inside our box.


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## CollinsCraft77

Nope. I sure don't.

But I will tell you this. Given the choice, I'd much rather prefer a Almighty God making a PERFECT choice rather than leaving it up to any of my kids, or my wife, and definitely me. You can't confess Christ as Lord without being chosen and to do so doesn't save your soul, but merely serves as a marker of his perfect choice.

You guys keep thinking your doing something. I will trust God. Not myself or any man for that matter because it's a choice man CAN'T and WON'T make. 

Besides, those 2,000,000 scriptures he spoke of, when looked at thru an election set of eyes, have totally different meanings than those who look st it thru man is the master of his destiny set of eyes.

Never heard a pot tell the potter to make me a certain way or to do this. The potter is in control. Period.


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## CollinsCraft77

Ps - it is you who putsGod in a box by saying he only did half the job and now man must finish. You limit God. not me


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## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ps - it is you who putsGod in a box by saying he only did half the job and now man must finish. You limit God. not me



Not at all.

If God does not make the choice for us, you (pl) say he is then no longer God.  Somehow, in your perspective, God becomes limited if he created choice.  This is not a discussion of capability, but more a discussion of reality.

And honestly, if you are right, God is making me be wrong, so I am not wrong, just simply a puppet of a perfect puppet master.......who then would be a bit strange for making me be wrong, when he is supposedly perfect.


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## Inthegarge

Thought:  If God wanted puppets why did He allow Adam and Eve to make a choice in the Garden....Throughout Scripture God presses man to choice Him over the world...This has never changed "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord"....We are "predestined" because of God's "foreknowledge"......


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## gemcgrew

Inthegarge said:


> Thought:  If God wanted puppets why did He allow Adam and Eve to make a choice in the Garden....Throughout Scripture God presses man to choice Him over the world...This has never changed "As for me and my house we will serve the Lord"....We are "predestined" because of God's "foreknowledge"......



Nothing is outside of God’s control or purpose. He said to Adam, “In the day thou eatest thereof,” (not if you eat, but when), “thou shalt surely die.” 

If God "predestines" because of "foreknowledge", why place the tree in the garden to begin with?


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## pstrahin

CollinsCraft77 said:


> The simple answer is yes. I mean you put down just a few examples where it says it. Why people argue or deny it kills me.
> 
> I'm sorry. It's just plain black and white for me. Simple




This is a fallacy.  Bob is in, Jim is out?

Salvation is offered to Bob and Jim.  Argue all you want, you could not be farther from the truth.


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## thedeacon

Sooooooooooooooooo, what are you saying? God chose only a "FEW" people to go to heaven but he chose "MANY" people
to bake in he11.

Come- unto- me- all- ye- that- labor- and- are- heavy- laden- and- I- will- give- you- rest.


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## Ronnie T

"Nothing is outside of God's control" but that doesn't mean God controls everything.

I'm reminded of Gen chap 6.  "God's heart was filled with pain" as He saw that mankind had all but one become filled with wickedness.
God was certainly in control for He destroyed those who had turned from Him.

No, God did not leave the job 'half done'.  God 'demands' that mankind make a choice.  That doesn't show a weakness in God, it shows His desire to have us all love Him of our on choosing.

God is patient because He wants all that will to come to Him.

Not make choices?  Why God demands that we make choices.  And it is His right to do that.  
If not, He would have been content with angels.

I don't save myself with my choice, but I must choose.


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## dawg2

If "pre-chosen" then why bother with anything?  Pre-chosen makes no sense.


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## Huntinfool

dawg2 said:


> If "pre-chosen" then why bother with anything?  Pre-chosen makes no sense.



...and I suppose, then, there's no need to fund mission trips if they are pre-chosen anyway, eh?

Sounds like our problem of whether or not to fund them just got solved!


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## JB0704

If God controls everything in the universe:

Why does God make free-willers argue with Calvinists?
Why does God make evil people do evil things?
Why does God make so many people argue about the Bible?
Why does God make policians argue over everthing?
Why does God create conflicting perspectives.....does he find glory in conflict?

If everything is predestined, then all of our sins, struggles, thoughts, actions, etc. are all part of the program.  And really, there is no use getting bothered by anything.......because God did it.  And, if we get mad at God for doing it, that would really just be God making us get mad at himself for what he did.

Why would anybody get mad at another person.  Why would the Church judge fellow Christians if all of their actions are controlled by God?  When the preacher cheats on his wife, perhaps we could pray and ask God to stop making the preacher cheat......and really, it would be God making us pray to him to stop something he did that he knew he would make us pray about in the first place.

Predestiny is a very dizzying position.....particularly when a Calvinist considers that he believes God made me write all of this stuff.


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## CollinsCraft77

Lol. 

I love you guys getting all worked up. 

Did God choose and predestinate? Yes you can't argue it.

The argument is why? You believe because you made a choice and he foreknew that choice. Ok. Fine

I believe he made the choice according to his OWN WILL and grace given to us before the world began. Not after I did anything. Your a Christian because God chose you. Not because you chose him.

Did any of you choose your natural father? No but you seem to think you can choose your heavenly father???? How many of you choose to be born the first time? But yet you think you can control being born again? Regenerated? Eyes opened?  I have never seen a deceased person choose to be alive and yet for some reason you think that someone who is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses can suddenly make themselves alive? 

Oh and the daily living thing. You live right to fellowship. At the time he only knows your eyes were opened and what did you suddenly have? Bingo! The desire to fellowship. To pray. And all the desires to do right. Do you confess Christ as Lord and Savior? Congrats. He did that. Not you. Why some and not others? I don't know. 

Let me reverse this a little to you free will people.

How can you not be having revivals everyday? If you know the goal is heaven for every soul you see saved, why are you wasting even the least of seconds doing other things and not preaching and saving souls? Why take vacations? Why play sports? We are talking people's eternal destinies here and somebody is playing a round of golf or fishing? Seriously? 

Nah. Not me. If y'all want to believe that you can. In fact, my oldest two kids got "saved" at revivals wit their friends. When they told me the good news, I hugged their necks, told them I loved them, and then looked up at the sky and winked to the big guy up there and said thanks for letting me know they've always been yours. I love all of y'all out there and I give the same wink everytime I read your posts.

We are all going to get there. My ticket was bought 2000 years ago. So was yours.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

I never said everything was predestined and neither does the Bible now does it? But it does say something was? Hmmm? What was that?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

And I'm not a Calvinist. I'm a primitive Baptist. There's a difference.


----------



## pstrahin

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Lol.
> 
> I love you guys getting all worked up.
> 
> *Did God choose and predestinate? Yes you can't argue it.*
> The argument is why? You believe because you made a choice and he foreknew that choice. Ok. Fine
> 
> I believe he made the choice according to his OWN WILL and grace given to us before the world began. Not after I did anything. Your a Christian because God chose you. Not because you chose him.
> 
> Did any of you choose your natural father? No but you seem to think you can choose your heavenly father???? How many of you choose to be born the first time? But yet you think you can control being born again? Regenerated? Eyes opened?  I have never seen a deceased person choose to be alive and yet for some reason you think that someone who is spiritually dead in sins and trespasses can suddenly make themselves alive?
> 
> Oh and the daily living thing. You live right to fellowship. At the time he only knows your eyes were opened and what did you suddenly have? Bingo! The desire to fellowship. To pray. And all the desires to do right. Do you confess Christ as Lord and Savior? Congrats. He did that. Not you. Why some and not others? I don't know.
> 
> Let me reverse this a little to you free will people.
> 
> How can you not be having revivals everyday? If you know the goal is heaven for every soul you see saved, why are you wasting even the least of seconds doing other things and not preaching and saving souls? Why take vacations? Why play sports? We are talking people's eternal destinies here and somebody is playing a round of golf or fishing? Seriously?
> 
> Nah. Not me. If y'all want to believe that you can. In fact, my oldest two kids got "saved" at revivals wit their friends. When they told me the good news, I hugged their necks, told them I loved them, and then looked up at the sky and winked to the big guy up there and said thanks for letting me know they've always been yours. I love all of y'all out there and I give the same wink everytime I read your posts.
> 
> We are all going to get there. My ticket was bought 2000 years ago. So was yours.



It is very difficult to argue with somebody that does not have a clue, and you sir, do not have a clue.  

Are you a full 5 part TULIP Calvinist or do you pick and choose?


----------



## JB0704

CC77, how can free-will and predestiny co-exist?  

Also, I am genuinely curious, what are the fundamental differences between Primitive Baptist and Calvinist.  I know one is a religion the other is a belief system (tulip), but where do the beliefs vary?


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I love you guys getting all worked up.



It's God making us do it.


----------



## gemcgrew

pstrahin said:


> This is a fallacy.  Bob is in, Jim is out?
> 
> Salvation is offered to Bob and Jim.  Argue all you want, you could not be farther from the truth.



Try Jacob and Esau. Jacob represents all God's elect. Esau represents non-elect sons of Adam.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> "Nothing is outside of God's control" but that doesn't mean God controls everything.


Nothing happens by luck, chance, accident or fate. Everything that comes to pass in time was purposed by God in eternity.


Ronnie T said:


> No, God did not leave the job 'half done'.  God 'demands' that mankind make a choice.  That doesn't show a weakness in God, it shows His desire to have us all love Him of our on choosing.


"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:9,10)


Ronnie T said:


> God is patient because He wants all that will to come to Him.


"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)


Ronnie T said:


> I don't save myself with my choice, but I must choose.


Is it a choice that separates the souls in heaven from the souls in he11?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> If God controls everything in the universe:
> 
> Why does God make free-willers argue with Calvinists?
> Why does God make evil people do evil things?
> Why does God make so many people argue about the Bible?
> Why does God make policians argue over everthing?
> Why does God create conflicting perspectives.....does he find glory in conflict?
> 
> If everything is predestined, then all of our sins, struggles, thoughts, actions, etc. are all part of the program.  And really, there is no use getting bothered by anything.......because God did it.  And, if we get mad at God for doing it, that would really just be God making us get mad at himself for what he did.
> 
> Why would anybody get mad at another person.  Why would the Church judge fellow Christians if all of their actions are controlled by God?  When the preacher cheats on his wife, perhaps we could pray and ask God to stop making the preacher cheat......and really, it would be God making us pray to him to stop something he did that he knew he would make us pray about in the first place.
> 
> Predestiny is a very dizzying position.....particularly when a Calvinist considers that he believes God made me write all of this stuff.



Why? Because "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Nothing happens by luck, chance, accident or fate. Everything that comes to pass in time was purposed by God in eternity.
> The Bible as a whole doesn't support your belief, and I completely disagree with you.
> Is God responsible for child sexual abuse?
> "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:9,10)
> That scripture doesn't say controls everything in life.  It says "what God chooses to do, He will do".
> 
> "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." (John 6:37)
> 
> Per Acts 2:37, those who had believed were then added to the kingdom by God Himself.  They were added only after they had believed.
> Those who believe will be given to Jesus, by God Himself.
> 
> Is it a choice that separates the souls in heaven from the souls in he11?
> 
> It is the judgement of God that separates heaven from - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -.



If what you believe is true, 85 percent of the Gospel is a farce..... and it is not.
You can't go through life blaming God for everything.  People must take responsibility.  The drunk must be accountable for those he killed on I-75.  Not God.

Please look back at Gen 6.  Was God responsible for the wickedness in the world that brought Him so much pain?  Pain of such intensity that He destroyed all of mankind except one family???????
God caused wickedness?  You can't believe that.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Pstrahin, first of all, are you personally insulting me or my intelligence? Because to do so is against forum rules is it not? I believe I was slapped with a demerit for less and I take offense. 

Now as for your question. Baptists believed in the stuff Calvin wrote long before Calvin gave you the tulip stuff. So basically to say I'm a Calvinist is to deny the true Church doctrines existed until him. Sorry. We believe a lot of the same stuff but I'm not a Calvinist.

I don't have a clue. I guess neither did Spurgeon when he said " We need an ANTIDOTE for the heresies and poisonous doctrines proclaimed by a large part of the public ministry of the present age. Zealous persons whose zeal for God is NOT according to knowledge, have gone about and gathered the gourds of the wild vine - ritualism, sacramentalism, Romanism, liberalism, Rationalism, Arminianism,...............(And we know the last one means free will) 

Why would Spurgeon argue against free will if only Calvinists believed that?

The Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge says " the doctrine of predestination runs thru both the Old and New Testaments; it is corroborated by the whole scriptural teaching concerning the Divine scheme of Salvation; and in its IMMEASURABLE compass, in it's infinite depth, has NEVER LACKED the TESTIMONY of the religious conscience of the LIVING CHURCH.

I promise you I have way more than a clue.

Do you sir sing Amazing Grace? Do you love that song? One of the most beautiful songs ever penned wouldn't you say? John Newton authored it. Did you know he believed in predestination and election? He wasn't a freewill believer yet every Sunday millions sing his song. Now that you know that, go back and read the lyrics knowing now what he believed and you will see A different song. Just like when you believe in Gods grace and choice, you will read a different Bible.


----------



## thedeacon

thedeacon said:


> Sooooooooooooooooo, what are you saying? God chose only a "FEW" people to go to heaven but he chose "MANY" people
> to bake in he11.
> 
> Come- unto- me- all- ye- that- labor- and- are- heavy- laden- and- I- will- give- you- rest.



Please, will one of the predistinators, please answer my question.


----------



## gemcgrew

thedeacon said:


> Please, will one of the predistinators, please answer my question.



"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:14-23)


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> If what you believe is true, 85 percent of the Gospel is a farce


No, but it would make your Gospel a fable.



Ronnie T said:


> You can't go through life blaming God for everything.  People must take responsibility.  The drunk must be accountable for those he killed on I-75.  Not God.


I blame God for nothing. I praise God for everything.



Ronnie T said:


> Please look back at Gen 6.  Was God responsible for the wickedness in the world that brought Him so much pain?  Pain of such intensity that He destroyed all of mankind except one family???????
> God caused wickedness?  You can't believe that.



God's purpose includes all the sinful acts and wickedness of man.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> No, but it would make your Gospel a fable.
> 
> 
> I blame God for nothing. I praise God for everything.
> 
> 
> 
> God's purpose includes all the sinful acts and wickedness of man.



You didn't address and explain the questions and answers.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Someone please say where any of us said God only chooses a few. If I'm not mistake he has as many as grains of sand on a beach or stars in the sky. I'll have to find the verse


----------



## CollinsCraft77

And mr deacon. One question. In your mind does God have the right to choose?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Selective Salvationists. Now that's a new one. Lol! Funny. I've been called lots but that takes the cake.


----------



## hobbs27

19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:

20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,

21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in he11 he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Here we have a man in torment and in he11 and he desires that one from the dead go back and testify to his brothers that they may repent.
 A man mind you, that has been judged, serving eternity in he11, having more knowledge than you or I as how he got there and why he is there, and what does he desire...what pains him? That his brothers may wind up in the same place as he if they do not repent!

This and the "Whosoever will" in John3:16 should be enough to settle this argument...but man will be man.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> You didn't address and explain the questions and answers.


I think you are referring to these that didn't show when I used the quote function.


Ronnie T said:


> Is God responsible for child sexual abuse?


God is sovereign, and in his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is responsible because God is sovereign. Without exception, God has purposed, decreed, and predestinated all things that have or will come to pass. "But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." (Psalm 115:3) "Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." (Psalm 135:6)
"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" (Daniel 4:35)
"Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:" (Acts 2:23)


Ronnie T said:


> That scripture doesn't say controls everything in life. It says "what God chooses to do, He will do".


Not so.


Ronnie T said:


> Per Acts 2:37, those who had believed were then added to the kingdom by God Himself. They were added only after they had believed.
> Those who believe will be given to Jesus, by God Himself.


Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). Those who believe(the elect) were secured in eternity.


Ronnie T said:


> It is the judgement of God that separates heaven from he11.


That was not my question. Are souls of men there because of a choice they made while here on earth?


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Hobbs, but whosoever will? And who does? It doesn't answer anything


----------



## CollinsCraft77

It's a parable and if you don't think so, go to the campfire forum and read about school lunches. About the same


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> 19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
> 
> 20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
> 
> 21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
> 
> 22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
> 
> 23 And in he11 he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
> 
> 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
> 
> 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
> 
> 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
> 
> 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
> 
> 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
> 
> 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
> 
> 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
> 
> 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
> 
> Here we have a man in torment and in he11 and he desires that one from the dead go back and testify to his brothers that they may repent.
> A man mind you, that has been judged, serving eternity in he11, having more knowledge than you or I as how he got there and why he is there, and what does he desire...what pains him? That his brothers may wind up in the same place as he if they do not repent!
> 
> This and the "Whosoever will" in John3:16 should be enough to settle this argument...but man will be man.



There is a difference in a repentance produced in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and a repentance produced only in the emotions.

The "Whosoever" are the elect.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> There is a difference in a repentance produced in the heart by the Holy Spirit, and a repentance produced only in the emotions.
> 
> The "Whosoever" are the elect.



The difference is the rich man knew that if his brothers did not repent they would end up in he11 just as he was, but there's a way out, their fate was not sealed...they had to repent..that's all they had to do.

I didnt say just "whosoever" I said "whosoever will" the will being "believeth" a verb or an action that depends upon us.


----------



## jmharris23

Everybody be careful. I know this topic gets everyone heated, and I dont think that's a bad thing, but it could cause problems here. 

That said, I do believe that this is a conversation worth having. Not because we will solve anything, because we will not. This topic has been a hot button of theology for hundreds of years, so we are not likely to solve it on the GON forum 

That said I do believe that it's great for a believer to know where they land on any theological issue. 

Personally, I have my own leanings and can back the up with Scripture, but those of you who have a viewpoint opposite of mine can do the same thing. 

That brings me to this. As I have matured and and studied, what I believe I see more and more in Scripture is not either/or, but both. 
The sovereignty of God and free will of man seem to be parallel tracks running through God's word. I do not know how to reconcile this and I am ok not knowing the answer to this. 

I do know this. The history of the church is full of great men from both sides. Reformed theology has given us great thinkers like Calvin himself, Luther, and Jonathan Edwards. Any one of use, if we are honest with ourselves cannot dispute the positive contributions each one of these men made to the church. 

Possibly the greatest preacher in history, Charles Spurgeon, was a staunch Calvinist and zealous evangelist. 

On the other side, church history has given us great men like John and Charles Wesley, C.S. Lewis, A.W. Tozer, and of course Billy Graham. Once again we cannot deny the positive impacts of these men on the church. 

With all that in mind, let's debate this subject like the godly men and women we are and realize that we will not come to a conclusion and most likely not change anyone's mind.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

I get that sir and understand


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> The difference is the rich man knew that if his brothers did not repent they would end up in he11 just as he was, but there's a way out, their fate was not sealed...they had to repent..that's all they had to do.


And no one will repent until Christ is revealed in the heart by the Holy Spirit.



hobbs27 said:


> I didnt say just "whosoever" I said "whosoever will" the will being "believeth" a verb or an action that depends upon us.


It doesn't matter whether "whosoever", "whosoever that believeth" or the "whosoever will". They are the chosen of God. He has elect Jew and Gentile scattered about the earth. Not one will perish. There may only be a few in this world at any point in time, but there will be a great multitude in heaven.


----------



## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> This topic has been a hot button of theology for hundreds of years ...



Yep, hundreds.  Not thousands.  Hundreds.

That's an important distinction.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> And no one will repent until Christ is revealed in the heart by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> It doesn't matter whether "whosoever", "whosoever that believeth" or the "whosoever will". They are the chosen of God. He has elect Jew and Gentile scattered about the earth. Not one will perish. There may only be a few in this world at any point in time, but there will be a great multitude in heaven.



I became an elect or was chosen in 1984, it was through my faith that he shed his grace upon me, and sealed my name in the lambs book of life.The event was what I will take to my grave, some call it blessed assurance.
 This is the way it happened to me!


----------



## CollinsCraft77

It sure is. Free will is relatively new outside of the Catholic Church. Of course they tried to squash that along with everything else. Do some research on Anabaptists and Waldenses. Also Augustine was well over a 1000 years ago.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Just curious, how do you reconcile 1984 with before the world began.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Just curious, how do you reconcile 1984 with before the world began.



Would you give me a scripture that makes it clear to you that God decided, even before I was born, whether or not He will want RonnieT in His eternal presence?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Would you give me a scripture that makes it clear to you that God decided, even before I was born, whether or not He will want RonnieT in His eternal presence?



"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:" (2 Timothy 1:9,10)

"For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." (Hebrews 4:3)

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Ephesians 1:3-6)


----------



## CollinsCraft77

That one works. Or Ephesians 1:4 in the new revised standard 

Just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love. 

There are others


----------



## CollinsCraft77

I used that version because it takes that big ugly word predestinate out and replaces it with something pretty simple. Chose

Who chose? God. Sorry. Not Ronnie and not Danny


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Free will is relatively new outside of the Catholic Church.



You've got it exactly backwards.

http://www.pfrs.org/calvinism/calvin12.html

Also, _everything_ is relatively new outside of the Catholic Church.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> That one works. Or Ephesians 1:4 in the new revised standard
> 
> Just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.
> There are others



I hope you'll have time to read all of this.
And please ask me to explain myself if I need to.

Paul isn't saying that God chose you and I before the foundation of the world, he's talking about Israel being chosen.  In all of Chapter 1, Paul is only talking about Israel being chosen.

See Here.

Eph 1:
........... Beginning in verse 3 Paul is speaking of himself and other Jews.  He is not speaking of the Gentiles in Ephesus.  Paul uses "We's" and "Us's"(meaning we Jew's, us Jews).  In verse 13 he'll begin talking about the church at Ephesus.

"3  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6  to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7  In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. ****************************

*Now, beginning in 13, Paul begins to describe the Gentiles in the church in Ephesus::  The "WE's become YOU's.

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
 15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16  do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> I used that version because it takes that big ugly word predestinate out and replaces it with something pretty simple. Chose
> 
> Who chose? God. Sorry. Not Ronnie and not Danny



Predestined is a great word, but it only applies to Israel, as God called them.

Eph 1:13, we Gentiles are now included because of our belief.


----------



## thedeacon

gemcgrew said:


> "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
> Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:14-23)



You have not answered my question, come on now it is basically a yes or no question.

If I truly believe something I will step right up and try to teach you. 

How would you answer the question.


----------



## thedeacon

CollinsCraft77 said:


> And mr deacon. One question. In your mind does God have the right to choose?




God has the right to do anything he wants to but God is a God of love and he wants every soul to be saved. Every soul not leaving one out

And you don't have to call me Mr.


----------



## barryl

O.K. I have one question for all the ELECT{Chosen, Predestinated}. How do you,us,or we know you are one of the chosen{elect}? I've read also some can give scripture and verse for this Philosophy. Please make extra sure to keep all Ch. and verse in it's proper CONTEXT, please ! Please use the KJV 1611 AV, it's easier for me to understand.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Center pin, actually stop with Calvin. Jump back in history to Augustine. There you'll find Calvin only 1000 years or so ago.

Ronnie, that would suit your argument. However he is writing to Christians. Not Jews. In fact historians will tell you that the earliest manuscripts of this book omit "in Ephesus" and merely use "to the saints in Christ Jesus" and Ephesians 2:11 his audience is clearly called Gentile


----------



## gemcgrew

thedeacon said:


> You have not answered my question, come on now it is basically a yes or no question.



I answered the only question asked.


thedeacon said:


> Sooooooooooooooooo, what are you saying? God chose only a "FEW" people to go to heaven but he chose "MANY" people to bake in he11.


Now, if the statement following your question was meant to be a question as well, I will answer it.


thedeacon said:


> God chose only a "FEW" people to go to heaven


No. There will be a great multitude, the whole Church of God's elect. "And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” (Revelation 19:6)


thedeacon said:


> but he chose "MANY" people to bake in he11.


I am fully aware, that in answering this question, I am going to get hammered by both the Calvinist and Arminian. When I consider "the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" and "broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat", it appears  to me that a greater multitude will be in he11 than in heaven.

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?" (Romans 9:19,20)


----------



## JB0704

Gemcgrew, I have a few thoughts on this, and I know nobody is changing their mind on this thread, but.......

How do you "square" a God who sent Jesus with a God who creates souls for he11?  Why would Jesus be necessary if all sin was preordained by God?  Wouldn't God then be killing his own son for things God did?

I follow your Biblical position, though I disagree with your conclusions from it.  But, I do not see how one can believe God punished his own son for things he did, nor can I reconcile what kind of God that would be with the God described in the NT.


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Just as he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless before him in love.



Does "us" have to be specific, as in individually, or as a group, as in "us Americans."  If the second, the "us" could be directed at "those hwo would believe" rather than "those he picked."

A second thought, who is "holy and blameless?"  From what I read, the answer is nobody.  What then is the verse saying?  Perhaps it is a challenge to righteous living rather than a pat on the back for be chosen......


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Gemcgrew, I have a few thoughts on this, and I know nobody is changing their mind on this thread, but.......
> 
> How do you "square" a God who sent Jesus with a God who creates souls for he11?  Why would Jesus be necessary if all sin was preordained by God?  Wouldn't God then be killing his own son for things God did?
> 
> I follow your Biblical position, though I disagree with your conclusions from it.  But, I do not see how one can believe God punished his own son for things he did, nor can I reconcile what kind of God that would be with the God described in the NT.



Keep in mind that we are talking about God(omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient) the Creator and sovereign Ruler of the universe. Would I, being created, question the Creator as to why? I take delight in that he created "vessels of mercy" who are the objects of his love.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Keep in mind that we are talking about God(omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient) the Creator and sovereign Ruler of the universe. Would I, being created, question the Creator as to why? I take delight in that he created "vessels of mercy" who are the objects of his love.



Right, but in context of your perspective, does that make any sense at all?  God, being omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, doing things that he sends his son to die for so that he can bring the "chosen" to heaven while he sends the others to he11......I get that he makes the rules, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense from any perspective.

Why is Jesus even necessary?


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> O.K. I have one question for all the ELECT{Chosen, Predestinated}. How do you,us,or we know you are one of the chosen{elect}?



If you, a sinner, trust Jesus Christ alone as your Lord and Savior, your faith in him is the evidence of election. 

“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36)
"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: " (1 John 5:1)
"flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 16:17)


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## CollinsCraft77

Jb, I get the question and it could mean both or individual. Ronni believes its Israel. I believe it is Christs purchased possession, the individual.

Kind of like John 3:16 where most believe the world is just that, the entire world. However, an alternate meaning for the Greek word also means elect, specific. So John 3:16 to me does not imply the whole world but rather a specific. The wide world of sports of course doesn't mean the whole world but rather the specific individual or groups involved in sports. Correct? But for some reason, that just doesn't sit well with some people. 

It's all ok. We're all going to the same place. And it's ok with me. I do not force my beliefs on my children. I let them judge for themselves. Either way I'm happy because without being elect, you can not proclaim who Christ is because FAITH is the fruit of the spirit, meaning the result of. So if any have faith, regardless of doctrine, their election is sure because they have faith, thus they have the spirit, thus they are the called and chosen of God.


----------



## gtparts

Can't believe I bought a ticket on this merry-go-round, again.

Please back up and answer just a few things to humor an old man.

Define predestination?

Does it mean to determine just the final outcome or to manipulate every iota of experienced events to achieve a predetermined outcome or both?

Does it speak to a plan that is flexible to achieve the desired goal, regardless of what each individual chooses to do and in every instance?

Is choice a work of the individual (what one does physically) or is it a decision made in the mind (and not truly a "work")? 

Is life any more than agreeing with God or disagreeing? Certainly, either is an action birthed by thought, making us responsible for the outcome but not the means to that outcome, for God is the judge of all things.

Is temptation the conception of sinful thinking? If so, then we most assuredly have the choice to take action for or against each consideration of the mind.

Could it be then that God, in His timing, places the question in the mind of each person, provides the "vision" to see the truth, and makes us to decide between the truth of His revelation or taking our own way?

If the decision as to whom we accompany home after "the dance" is already set by anyone else, why bother with "the dance" at all? Does it please our God to see us all struggle with the complexities of life and then to sort us out according to His prearranged plan without regard to our response to Him?

Why would a response even be necessary?

Answer those questions and I think you will see each side of this issue more clearly. I can only say that while I think I understand some of both sides, I also believe that each side has some things right and some things wrong. I see it more as a mystery that can only be reconciled this side of heaven by seeking those things that are in agreement. While we should never compromise the Word of God, we must examine which of our beliefs, based on our interpretation, will comply with all Scripture. If they (the points being argued here) do not, perhaps we should allow for our being wrong in our theological position on that subject.

Being sincere concerning our position on this matter will never change the fact that, while we may be sincerely right, we may also be sincerely wrong.

Let's show a little more grace to others in that we are all to imitate Christ.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

There's the clay questioning the potter again


----------



## Huntinfool

I'll just say this....for a very long time....decades....I was 100% convinced that God would not choose some and not others.  "I HAVE A FREE WILL!"

It was a view that was 100% derived from a sinful and prideful man who did not truly believe that God was sovereign and Holy.

I believed that a loving God could not do that and that the Bible backed me up in that belief.  

As you guys know, it is a weakness of mine that it is very difficult for me to admit when I'm wrong.  I will tell you this with full conviction...I was wrong.  I am the son of a Methodist preacher.  I was wrong.

When I look at the whole of Scripture, I see no way to deny that God chooses us and did so from the very beginning.  Do I fully understand it?  Absolutely not.  But it is clear to me that God chooses us.  How or why, I don't totally know.  We are dead in sin and overwhelmed in it.  We cannot chose life in that state.  He must act on our behalf first.

That is my firm belief and it was one that took a long time for me to come to because of the deeply ingrained "free will" that I grew up with.  

Ultimately, I believe that we are all arguing semantics when you look at the arguments.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

And gt, that was directed to jb but it applies to some of your line of thinking. 

It can't be both. Either God chooses or man chooses. There's no middle ground. 

Did God choose? Does the Bible say God made a choice? If it did, what was the choice? And what was the final outcome? If you ca answer that, then I see no way man can exercise freewill to get to heaven. That's just me. 

To think that God needs mans help to execute a plan in laughable to me. God, creator of all things, needs me to finish the job. Im pretty sure he's quit capable if doing it himself and he has the absolute right according to the good pleasure of his will.

Tell me, what has God willed that has not come to pass? If God willed that all should be saved, then all will be saved. God willed it? And some may say God does will that all should be saved. And I will agree. All the elect. The purchased possession. And all will. But some wont


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Hunting fool, excellent post and I walked that same road. Thing is, once you see it, once it is revealed to you, it's impossible to deny.


----------



## Huntinfool

I'll be honest though...I don't understand it any more than you do or any of these guys do.  I say we all admit that none of us fully understands election and we will ALL have the opportunity to sit at the Lord's feet some day and hear the answer.


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> I'll be honest though...I don't understand it any more than you do or any of these guys do.  I say we all admit that none of us fully understands election and we will ALL have the opportunity to sit at the Lord's feet some day and hear the answer.



Understanding or believing election is not salvation. A decision not to go to he11 is not salvation. A choice is not a new creation. Salvation is of the Lord. It is not something we do for God but something God does for and in us. It is a new creation performed by the Creator.


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Jump back in history to Augustine.



I am well aware of what Augustine taught.  Augustine, however, was a true "lone wolf" in this area.  His ideas were unknown to the early church.


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> It's all ok. We're all going to the same place. And it's ok with me. I do not force my beliefs on my children. I let them judge for themselves. Either way I'm happy because without being elect, you can not proclaim who Christ is because FAITH is the fruit of the spirit, meaning the result of. So if any have faith, regardless of doctrine, their election is sure because they have faith, thus they have the spirit, thus they are the called and chosen of God.



I appreciate your approach. 

1 Timothy 2:4 indicates God wants everybody to be saved.  I do not believe the Bible indicates that everybody is saved.  This tells me that God may not always get his will.

Also, I agree with you that our tickets are punched, and this discussion is irrelevant to our status as Christians.  But, I do enjoy learning and hearing from other perspectives.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I'll just say this....for a very long time....decades....I was 100% convinced that God would not choose some and not others.  "I HAVE A FREE WILL!"
> 
> It was a view that was 100% derived from a sinful and prideful man who did not truly believe that God was sovereign and Holy.
> 
> I believed that a loving God could not do that and that the Bible backed me up in that belief.
> 
> As you guys know, it is a weakness of mine that it is very difficult for me to admit when I'm wrong.  I will tell you this with full conviction...I was wrong.  I am the son of a Methodist preacher.  I was wrong.
> 
> When I look at the whole of Scripture, I see no way to deny that God chooses us and did so from the very beginning.  Do I fully understand it?  Absolutely not.  But it is clear to me that God chooses us.  How or why, I don't totally know.  We are dead in sin and overwhelmed in it.  We cannot chose life in that state.  He must act on our behalf first.
> 
> That is my firm belief and it was one that took a long time for me to come to because of the deeply ingrained "free will" that I grew up with.
> 
> Ultimately, I believe that we are all arguing semantics when you look at the arguments.



Thanks for your testimony on this area.  I am a very stubborn person myself, so I can relate.  I do not see it the way you do, but appreciate your willingness to share.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Ultimately, I believe that we are all arguing semantics when you look at the arguments.



I think there's a lot of truth in that.  However, the picture of God that has developed from the "predestined view" is not a pretty one.  He's a capricious puppet master who chooses some to be saved and some to be eternally darned.  Not only is this completely false, but it's the cause of much modern atheism.  Who could love a God like that?


----------



## thedeacon

centerpin fan said:


> I think there's a lot of truth in that.  However, the picture of God that has developed from the "predestined view" is not a pretty one.  He's a capricious puppet master who chooses some to be saved and some to be eternally darned.  Not only is this completely false, but it's the cause of much modern atheism.  Who could love a God like that?



You my Brother are correct, if the predestined view is
correct that defeats all I read about God creatting a
world and setting up a kingdom with him as king and
his children the subjects. Instead he would have one
gynormous dollhouse.

Thats not what God had or has in mind for us. If I believed that I would be a differant person and would have
a completely new attitude.

I would love to know how those who believe in this theory
determine who the chosen people are? This is not meant
to be sarcastic or rude. If you do believe this why would you let so many people waste their time in needless
spiritual games.

I am through with this thread because I can see its the same old stick stirring the pot and the taste of the soup 
will never change.

Just my opinion
God Bless


----------



## Ronnie T

Anyone who will open to Ephesians 1 and read will see as distinct change of direction at verse 13.

Until verse 13 Paul is describing Israel's predestination.
In verse 13 Paul speaks of Christians's in Ephesus.

Don't have to be a Calvinist or Armenian, it's just simply there.


----------



## gemcgrew

thedeacon said:


> I would love to know how those who believe in this theory determine who the chosen people are? This is not meant to be sarcastic or rude.


I am sure you chose the word "theory" so as to avoid being sarcastic or rude. Anyway, I do not determine who those people are. I speak the truth in love and the Holy Spirit uses it as he will.


thedeacon said:


> If you do believe this why would you let so many people waste their time in needless spiritual games.


And what exactly would you propose I do?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I think there's a lot of truth in that.  However, the picture of God that has developed from the "predestined view" is not a pretty one.  He's a capricious puppet master who chooses some to be saved and some to be eternally darned.  Not only is this completely false, but it's the cause of much modern atheism.  Who could love a God like that?



Who could love a God like that? Chosen, redeemed sinners. Gladly and willingly.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> Who could love a God like that? Chosen, redeemed sinners. Gladly and willingly.



The problem is, it's very easy to hate a God like that.  It reminds me of this scene from _Lethal Weapon_:

Danny Glover:  "God hates me. That's what it is."

Mel Gibson:  "Hate him back; it works for me."


----------



## Artfuldodger

One point i would make for discussion would be God & Jesus' various judgements. How can they judge believers or nonbelievers if they didn't have any choices in life?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> If you, a sinner, trust Jesus Christ alone as your Lord and Savior, your faith in him is the evidence of election.
> 
> “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36)
> "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: " (1 John 5:1)
> "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 16:17)



So you are saying "Assurance in Salvation" is the same thing as Election?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> The problem is, it's very easy to hate a God like that.



The human heart, by nature, hates and is enmity against God. "Crucify Him! Crucify Him!"

"Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be"(Romans 8:7)


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> Anyone who will open to Ephesians 1 and read will see as distinct change of direction at verse 13.
> 
> Until verse 13 Paul is describing Israel's predestination.
> In verse 13 Paul speaks of Christians's in Ephesus.
> 
> Don't have to be a Calvinist or Armenian, it's just simply there.



_he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

(Ephesians 1:5 ESV)_

This is before vs 13.  He predestined "us" through Jesus Christ...Who is us and since when did Jesus do anything in terms of making the Jews God's chosen people?  According to the purpose of whose will are we predestined for adoption?

_	In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
(Ephesians 1:11-12 ESV)_

This is also before vs 13.  "We are predestined...so that we who were the first to hope in Christ".  The Jews were not the first to hope in Christ.  Christ came many generations after the Jews had already been declared the chosen people of God.  

How do you get that 1-12 are not specifically referring to those who put their faith in Christ and somehow only apply to a description of the Jews?  "Us" means "Us".  "Us" does not mean "Me and others...but not you".


----------



## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> I think there's a lot of truth in that.  However, the picture of God that has developed from the "predestined view" is not a pretty one.  He's a capricious puppet master who chooses some to be saved and some to be eternally darned.  Not only is this completely false, but it's the cause of much modern atheism.  Who could love a God like that?



I think that's what you get from "predestination".  That is not at all what I believe and does not jive at all with my view of him.

He knows the end from the beginning.


----------



## Huntinfool

I'm curious about something from the folks who are adament anti-predestination.

If you believe that salvation is our choice, God extends his mercy to all and we have the full decision to accept or reject....do you also believe, then, that you can lose your salvation or "walk away"?

Maybe best for another thread some time.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> That is not at all what I believe and does not jive at all with my view of him.



I don't think you fit into that category.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> If you believe that salvation is our choice, God extends his mercy to all and we have the full decision to accept or reject....do you also believe, then, that you can lose your salvation or "walk away"?



Yes, and, as I've said before, I don't like the phrase "lose your salvation".  It makes it seem like salvation is like spare change or a set of keys that can just drop through a hole in your pocket.  "Whoops.  Where's my salvation?  I know I had it when I left the house this morning."


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> The human heart, by nature, hates and is enmity against God.



I disagree.  Adam and Eve did not hate God.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> I'm curious about something from the folks who are adament anti-predestination.



Speaking as someone who's "adamant", I'm not adamant against predestination.  I'm just adamant against Calvinism.  Or, I'm at least adamant about what passes as Calvinism these days.  I'm not sure how Calvin would feel about it.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> I disagree.  Adam and Eve did not hate God.


When Adam sinned, we all became sinners. It didn't take Adam very long to start hiding and attempt to cover his nakedness with works.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I'm curious about something from the folks who are adament anti-predestination.
> 
> If you believe that salvation is our choice, God extends his mercy to all and we have the full decision to accept or reject....do you also believe, then, that you can lose your salvation or "walk away"?
> 
> Maybe best for another thread some time.



I used to be solid OSAS.  Now, not so sure, there are compelling arguments either way.   But, I am adamant anti-predestination.   I do not see the two as contradictory.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Center pin, Even with your idea of a loving all God, etc, aren't there still a huge amount of people going to the hot place? Why would God leave the choice to men knowing they'll choose opposite of him everytime UNLESS he intercedes. 

Father knows best. 

Ronnie, your argument only holds merit to those who staunchly believe as you do. I've looked over a bunch of writings by many people on the first of Ephesians and none speak of him talking about Israel.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Center pin, what part of Calvinism do you most not like? Just curious? 

And what part do you like? If any


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Jb- if your adamant anti predestination, how do you account for it in the Bible? I mean the word is there. Just curious


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Jb- if your adamant anti predestination, how do you account for it in the Bible? I mean the word is there. Just curious



In what way is it there?  That is what we are all arguing over, isn't it?  You and I couldn't agree on what context the word "us" was used in a previous discussion.  I would think discovering the correct application of the words chosen is critical to the interpretation of the words.  That being the case, the concept of predestination makes many scriptures contradict each other.

Let's talk about getting to heaven.  Mathew 7:14 seems to imply that the path to heaven is "found."  How can it be "found" if it is something that is shown to "the elect?"  Additionally, I listed in a previous post that God's will is for everybody to go to heaven.....if God always gets his will, then we are all going to heaven, but then, how can there only be a few who "find" it?

Let's talk about Paul.  Paul was a jew, and a Christian.  He identified with multiple groups, had a very diverse background, and was extremely educated.  His audience varied between the letters.  You and Ronnie are debating over one chapter was written to jews or gentiles....I don't know what the answer is, but think a lot of his words have a cultural context we do not understand, and as such, will misinterpret in our zeal to be as accurate to the Bible as possible.

See, Jews were always told they were "special" in God's eyes.  They were the "chosen ones."  The "elect."  The early Chuirsitans were also Jews, and had grown up under this umbrella of entitlement.  Now that was no more.  But the language and the terminology they used would be in line with a culture which believed they were a chosen people.  Problem is, Jesus made EVERYBODY the "elect."  Jews, Gentiles, Eskimos, etc.  They all were "elected" and just had to reach up and grab it.  God wants all to be saved, right? 1 Timothy 2:4.

So, which is it?  Do we have a perfect God who always gets his way, but doesn't when somebody goes to he11?  Did the Bible get written in some type of primitive code where God has to open the eyes of the reader before he can see it?  Or......does the word "world" actually mean "world" in John 3:16?

The concept of open salvation to everybody keeps the entire message consistent where the concept of election, or predestination, makes it start going all over the place, and we have to start deciphering "codes" written from men who lived in a very different time, culture, context, and used a very different language and customs than we do.


----------



## Huntinfool

I think what he means JB, is that "predestined" is very clearly there in many many passages.  What do you do with that?  I think that's what he's asking.

Did God "foreordain"?  Does he "predestine"?  What he's saying is that those phrases are very clearly there.  What I find is that people refuse to specifically address that and, instead, turn to other passages in an effort to refute rather than addressing those passages straight on.


----------



## Huntinfool

Also, I have to assume that you believe that God could have his way (i.e. his will) if he wanted to, right?  He must just choose to cede his will to ours as to whether we are saved?

If that's the case, I am struggling to see how that is loving.  Why would it be MORE loving for the God of the universe...the one who knows the end from the beginning, the one who is all knowing and all powerful and present everywhere....why would it be MORE loving for him to let US decide what is best? 

That just doesn't make any sense does it?  I guess that's not a real question...obviously it does make sense to you.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I think what he means JB, is that "predestined" is very clearly there in many many passages.  What do you do with that?  I think that's what he's asking.
> 
> Did God "foreordain"?  Does he "predestine"?  What he's saying is that those phrases are very clearly there.  What I find is that people refuse to specifically address that and, instead, turn to other passages in an effort to refute rather than addressing those passages straight on.



Heck man, I tried to hit it as straight as I could.  

"Preordained" could be a collective concept or an individual concept, I think.  If that is the case, we may be considering a word that was intended towards a people group, and applying it to the individual.

An example, and I am really shooting from the hip here: Football teams will play in the Super Bowl (collective), The Giants and the Patriots will play in the Super Bowl (individual).  Both statements include forsight....but is the application on an individual level or a collective level?  That is my confusion with the concept of "elect."  Is this those who will accept, or those who God chose to accept?

We know God gets angry at results.  We know not everybody goes to heaven, but his will indicates he wants them all, so I am left wondering if the future is completely written yet..........I dunno.  All I really can answer is that I am quite comfortable with my position.

.......and if I have no free will, God made me write all of this.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Also, I have to assume that you believe that God could have his way (i.e. his will) if he wanted to, right?  He must just choose to cede his will to ours as to whether we are saved?



Yes, kind-of.....the option is given by him.  He extends his will for us to take.  It does not diminish his authority over it all.



Huntinfool said:


> If that's the case, I am struggling to see how that is loving.  Why would it be MORE loving for the God of the universe...the one who knows the end from the beginning, the one who is all knowing and all powerful and present everywhere....why would it be MORE loving for him to let US decide what is best?



Because we have a chance.  Under predestination, we do not.



Huntinfool said:


> That just doesn't make any sense does it?  I guess that's not a real question...obviously it does make sense to you.



Sure, it's a real question.  I see it as more loving because it is given to us to accept, rather than create a soul and condemn it to he11 before it ever has an opportunity to get to heaven.


----------



## thedeacon

Huntinfool said:


> I'm curious about something from the folks who are adament anti-predestination.
> 
> If you believe that salvation is our choice, God extends his mercy to all and we have the full decision to accept or reject....do you also believe, then, that you can lose your salvation or "walk away"?
> 
> Maybe best for another thread some time.



Yes.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Because we have a chance. Under predestination, we do not.



You and I both had a chance...did we not?  Otherwise, neither of us would be saved.



> .......and if I have no free will, God made me write all of this.



Stuff like this is what keeps me out of here most of the time these days.  I am the authority over my children's lives.  I do not dictate every single moment of their existence.  There are, however, some things that I do not allow them to decide for themselves because they lack the ability to see what I see.

I shouldn't have jumped in on this discussion.  So I'll just kind of close with this.

If Adam and Eve truly had free will in the garden and God left the decision of whether to eat the fruit up to them, then he has literally been just trying to clean up a mess since the garden of eden.  Not only that, but when he realized he failed the first time and destroyed everything, he was gullible enough to do it AGAIN thinking he might get a different result....and fail again.

We see everything on a timeline.  But God does not live there with us.  He knew the end at the very beginning.  We are told in scripture that our sole purpose is to glorify God.  What could bring more glory than the story laid out in the Bible?  He knew Revelation at Genesis.  He knew that Jesus would come in the form of man and as a baby and he knew why that would happen when he created Adam.  

As I continue to gain more understanding of what "predestined" really means, I understand that "predestined" does not mean "caused" in the way that we understand that word.  He is not causing me to write this post...but he knew when he breathed life into Adam that I would.  In the same sense, he knows who will and will not be saved.  They are the elect referred to in scripture.  Those who are not elect are not so because God chooses to be a jerk toward them and doesn't love them.  He loves all.  Jesus died for the sins of all....only some will believe...and God knows who they are.


----------



## Huntinfool

thedeacon said:


> Yes.



How could someone enter the presence of the living God and commune with him and then decide that the world is more appealing?

Do you believe that God made the world more glorious than himself?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> You and I both had a chance...did we not?  Otherwise, neither of us would be saved.



Only if we had the will to choose.  What if you were elected and I was not.



Huntinfool said:


> Stuff like this is what keeps me out of here most of the time these days.



I think you took it a bit more personal than intended.  The truth is I sent a lot more olive branches your way than you ever did to me, but I am still here, and am usually quite outnumbered.



Huntinfool said:


> I am the authority over my children's lives.  I do not dictate every single moment of their existence.  There are, however, some things that I do not allow them to decide for themselves because they lack the ability to see what I see.



Now you are in a different position than those who believe we have zero free will.  Would that qualify as "semi-free" will?  It is a serious, sincere, question if you care to follow up.




Huntinfool said:


> If Adam and Eve truly had free will in the garden and God left the decision of whether to eat the fruit up to them, then he has literally been just trying to clean up a mess since the garden of eden.  Not only that, but when he realized he failed the first time and destroyed everything, he was gullible enough to do it AGAIN....and fail again.



That is certainly an interesting take on it.  I tend to think of it as God created creation, and interacted with it along the way...such as with Jesus.



Huntinfool said:


> ..........As I continue to gain more understanding of what "predestined" really means, I understand that "predestined" does not mean "caused" in the way that we understand that word.  He is not causing me to write this post...but he knew when he breathed life into Adam that I would.  In the same sense, he knows who will and will not be saved.  They are the elect referred to in scripture.  Those who are not elect are not so because God chooses to be a jerk toward them and doesn't love them.  He loves all.  Jesus died for the sins of all....only some will believe...and God knows who they are.



Then you view it as foresight, and not a true election....such as "I love him but not her"......right?


----------



## Huntinfool

> That is certainly an interesting take on it. I tend to think of it as God created creation, and interacted with it along the way...such as with Jesus.



So, in other words....he made a mess and has been trying to clean it up ever since.  Not a very powerful or wise God....is he?



> Then you view it as foresight, and not a true election....such as "I love him but not her"......right?



I view it as predestined.  That's the best way to explain it.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> ... he knows who will and will not be saved.  They are the elect referred to in scripture.  Those who are not elect are not so because God chooses to be a jerk toward them and doesn't love them.  He loves all.  Jesus died for the sins of all....only some will believe...and God knows who they are.



I'm pretty sure I agree with this.  If Calvinism stopped here, I could handle it ... but it doesn't.


----------



## Lowjack

Rom 8;29

"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers"
So if G-d knew you even before you were incarnated , he also knew you would accept him and you would be saved.
Is that too hard to understand ?

Christ died for the sins of the World , so everyone is saved if you chose to be saved , but God knows who would be and would not be saved , otherwise he would not be the Allmighty.
But so that no one can claim hey I was lost unfairly , he made it our choice to accept forgiveness or not.

Time after time the Bible teaches Salvation is of God and His salvation , Yeh-Shua jesus means His salvation, so if salvation is his why would you lose it ? It is not yours to lose , you didn't pay for anything ,he did . You are his and no one can take you from him.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So, in other words....he made a mess and has been trying to clean it up ever since.  Not a very powerful or wise God....is he?.



No.



Huntinfool said:


> I view it as predestined.  That's the best way to explain it.



It all depends on the intentions, I guess.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Ok.


----------



## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> I'm pretty sure I agree with this.  If Calvinism stopped here, I could handle it ... but it doesn't.



Just so we're clear, I don't care about Calvinism.  I'm just giving the points that I see in scripture.


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> ... he knows who will and will not be saved.  They are the elect referred to in scripture.  Those who are not elect are not so because God chooses to be a jerk toward them and doesn't love them.  He loves all.  Jesus died for the sins of all....only some will believe...and God knows who they are.




Upon further review, this sounds like the conditional election of Arminianism:


_Arminianism - Election is based on God's foreknowledge of those who would believe in him through faith. In other words, God elected those who would choose him of their own free will. Conditional election is based on man's response_

http://christianity.about.com/od/denominations/a/calvinarminian.htm


_God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation. _

http://www.the-highway.com/compare.html


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> Just so we're clear, I don't care about Calvinism.  I'm just giving the points that I see in scripture.



Understood.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Low jack, please tell me where it says God foreknew those who would accept him? I totally missed that verse. And in others where it is to the good pleasure of his will, I missed the verse that said according to mans will. 

Just show me the verse where election and predestinate are according to mans will. Not what you think I means but where it says that.


----------



## Huntinfool

> No.



as in...no, he's not very powerful and wise or no, he's not been trying to clean up a mess?

I don't know what else you can call it if he just tipped over the first domino.


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Center pin, Even with your idea of a loving all God, etc, aren't there still a huge amount of people going to the hot place?



Yes.




CollinsCraft77 said:


> Why would God leave the choice to men knowing they'll choose opposite of him everytime UNLESS he intercedes.



I don't know.  I can't fathom the mind of God.  I do know that He unquestionably gave that choice to the angels.  It makes perfect sense to me that He would also give that choice to us.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Upon further review, this sounds like the conditional election of Arminianism:





> Conditional election is based on man's response



Except I don't believe we, mired in sin, have the ability to respond to anything until God moves upon us.  Without his hand, will we always choose death.  

Adam and Eve proved that and through them we all will die because of sin.  Left to ourselves, we will choose death.  We respond when God moves and only then.

I'm sure that I still have tints of Armenianism in me.  I grew up Weslyan Armenian as a UM kid.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> he's not been trying to clean up a mess?.



^^this.



Huntinfool said:


> I don't know what else you can call it if he just tipped over the first domino.



Creation.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Except I don't believe we, mired in sin, have the ability to respond to anything until God moves upon us.  Without his hand, will we always choose death.
> 
> Adam and Eve proved that and through them we all will die because of sin.  Left to ourselves, we will choose death.  We respond when God moves and only then.



So, does everybody have an equal chance?


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Center pin, what part of Calvinism do you most not like? Just curious?
> 
> And what part do you like? If any



I had to look up TULIP to refresh my memory.  (I can never remember what the "I" stands for.)  

It's not a question of liking it or not.  I just think each point is wrong.  The "P" is obviously appealing ... if I thought it was correct ... which I don't.  Likewise, universalism is incredibly appealing ... but totally wrong, IMO.


----------



## dawg2

Huntinfool said:


> ...and I suppose, then, there's no need to fund mission trips if they are pre-chosen anyway, eh?
> 
> Sounds like our problem of whether or not to fund them just got solved!


Yep.  If pre destiny is the case, then no need for church, praying, tithing, etc.  Why bother.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Huntinfool
> I don't know what else you can call it if he just tipped over the first domino.





> Creation.



Did God know that Adam would sin even before he created him?  If not, then why would he allow for the possibility of sin and take the chance?

If he was just hoping that Adam would love him enough to not sin, then creation was a failure from the very beginning....and again after Noah.  God failed twice.

If he knew Adam's decision from the beginning and had the glorious coming of Christ in mind and had the redemption of the world at his fingertips and had Satan's ultimate crushing defeat as the known ending....then everything that has happened up until now and everything that will happen going foward is simply leading up to the greatest day....the day of the Lord....just as he designed it and foreknew.

If he simply hoped that Adam would choose well, then he didn't know the end at the beginning.  He's just been improvising ever since.


----------



## Huntinfool

dawg2 said:


> Yep.  If pre destiny is the case, then no need for church, praying, tithing, etc.  Why bother.



You're right Dawg....you shouldn't bother.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Did God know that Adam would sin even before he created him?  If not, then why would he allow for the possibility of sin and take the chance?
> 
> If he was just hoping that Adam would love him enough to not sin, then creation was a failure from the very beginning....and again after Noah.  God failed twice.
> 
> If he knew Adam's decision from the beginning and had the glorious coming of Christ in mind and had the redemption of the world at his fingertips and had Satan's ultimate crushing defeat as the known ending....then everything that has happened up until now and everything that will happen going foward is simply leading up to the greatest day....the day of the Lord....just as he designed it and foreknew.
> 
> If he simply hoped that Adam would choose well, then he didn't know the end at the beginning.  He's just been improvising ever since.



The inverse is that God knew Adam would sin, and billions would burn, and did it all anyway.

So, one is messy and the other is mean.

That's why I don't really go along with your "cleaning up the mess" analogy.  I believe evil is a natural opposite to good.  And fro men to be free, they must have a choice.

So which is it, is God mean and we are slaves, or is God loving to all and we are free?


----------



## Huntinfool

So, God created, and billions burn.

I don't think I saw an answer to the first question.  Did God know that Adam would be tempted and sin when he created him?


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> _he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
> 
> (Ephesians 1:5 ESV)_
> 
> This is before vs 13.  He predestined "us" through Jesus Christ...Who is us and since when did Jesus do anything in terms of making the Jews God's chosen people?  According to the purpose of whose will are we predestined for adoption?
> 
> _	In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.
> (Ephesians 1:11-12 ESV)_
> 
> This is also before vs 13.  "We are predestined...so that we who were the first to hope in Christ".  The Jews were not the first to hope in Christ.  Christ came many generations after the Jews had already been declared the chosen people of God.
> 
> How do you get that 1-12 are not specifically referring to those who put their faith in Christ and somehow only apply to a description of the Jews?  "Us" means "Us".  "Us" does not mean "Me and others...but not you".



You make my point perfectly.  Everything in verse 12, and above were predestined, but those Paul spoke to in verse 13 were not predestined.  

13.  13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 

Did you see it?  you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed 

*Not through predestination, but after hearing and believing.  No predestination.

Please discuss this with me some more if you disagree.  Thanks.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So, God created, and billions burn.?



By choice.



Huntinfool said:


> I don't think I saw an answer to the first question.



HF, first, here is a question you didn't answer, then I will answer yours:

Do you believe in semi-free will (relevant to your illustration of your kid's behavior), or are we totally "robots?"



Huntinfool said:


> Did God know that Adam would be tempted and sin when he created him?



I am sure God knew Adam would be tempted, because he would be free to choose.  I am sure he was aware that Adam would most likely sin, but I would think, given God's statement about loving the world and wanting all in heaven, that God would have preferred Adam didn't sin.  I am also aware that he knew he could intervene, or was willing to change his mind (he changes his mind a bunch in the OT), which indicates the future is not "set in stone."


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Center pin, Even with your idea of a loving all God, etc, aren't there still a huge amount of people going to the hot place? Why would God leave the choice to men knowing they'll choose opposite of him everytime UNLESS he intercedes.
> 
> Father knows best.
> 
> Ronnie, your argument only holds merit to those who staunchly believe as you do. I've looked over a bunch of writings by many people on the first of Ephesians and none speak of him talking about Israel.



For me, it isn't an argument, it's simply reading and accepting what's written.  How can it possibly be anything else?  Verse 13 is a complete totally change in direction from all the previous verses.

We just talking Bible here, not whether someone else agrees with you and I or not.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> *Not through predestination, but after hearing and believing.  No predestination.
> 
> Please discuss this with me some more if you disagree.  Thanks.





He predestined us...through Christ. 


Let that marinate for a little while.  



I most certainly disagree with you....but I get the sense from your attitude that further discussion on it won't be very fruitful.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> He predestined us...through Christ.
> 
> 
> Let that marinate for a little while.
> 
> 
> 
> I most certainly disagree with you....but I get the sense from your attitude that further discussion on it won't be very fruitful.



Who is this directed at?  And, who besides you is throwing any attitude in here?


----------



## Huntinfool

> Do you believe in semi-free will (relevant to your illustration of your kid's behavior), or are we totally "robots?"



No, we are not robots.  If we were, then there would be no sin.

Nothing happens outside of God's knowledge or permission.  In his permissive will (as in mine with my kids), we are given freedom of will.  It is not a question of free will vs robot.  Even with free will, we will not choose him because we are permeated with sin.  We will choose death.

Until God "pricks our heart" through the power of the HS, we will not come to him.  It's not as if he lays it out there and we see all the merits of the argument clearly and then make an educated decision.  



> which indicates the future is not "set in stone."



So then....we don't know whether God will ultimately triumph...now do we?


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> Who is this directed at?  And, who besides you is throwing any attitude in here?



Fixed it for ya....and we are all throwing a little attitude around.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> No, we are not robots.  If we were, then there would be no sin.
> 
> Nothing happens outside of God's knowledge or permission.  In his permissive will (as in mine with my kids), we are given freedom of will.  It is not a question of free will vs robot.  Even with free will, we will not choose him because we are permeated with sin.  We will choose death.
> 
> Until God "pricks our heart" through the power of the HS, we will not come to him.  It's not as if he lays it out there and we see all the merits of the argument clearly and then make an educated decision.


 

I understand you rperspective a bit better now.  Thanks.



Huntinfool said:


> So then....we don't know whether God will ultimately triumph...now do we?



Sure we can.  He says so.

But, triumph over who and what is the question?  Let's say you are correct, and God predestines all, then doesn't it also make sense that he would have orchestrated the fall, Satan, death, he11, evil, all of it?  

If you are right, ultimately, he is triumphing over himself.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Low jack, please tell me where it says God foreknew those who would accept him? I totally missed that verse. And in others where it is to the good pleasure of his will, I missed the verse that said according to mans will.
> 
> Just show me the verse where election and predestinate are according to mans will. Not what you think I means but where it says that.



While Lowjack is looking that up for you would you please tell me where it says that God predestined that the world would become so evil that He would have to destroy it by flooding the earth?

You early said that God choses who will love him and who will not.  Noah loved God and was a righteous man.  All the rest of mankind was evil, and it pained God's heart.  Why should it pain God's heart, if God had ordained it to occur?  See my point.

It just don't wash for me.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Fixed it for ya....and we are all throwing a little attitude around.



I don't know what you fixed.

And no, you don't know me HF.  I am not throwing any attitude around.  I can't really prove that, but I have no reason to lie about it.  I often scratch my head when you come to these conclusions.


----------



## Huntinfool

> If you are right, ultimately, he is triumphing over himself.



What you talkin' bout Willis?


View attachment untitled.bmp


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> I don't know what you fixed.
> 
> And no, you don't know me HF.  I am not throwing any attitude around.  I can't really prove that, but I have no reason to lie about it.



I fixed my post so it was clear who I was talking to.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Did God know that Adam would sin even before he created him?  If not, then why would he allow for the possibility of sin and take the chance?
> 
> If he was just hoping that Adam would love him enough to not sin, then creation was a failure from the very beginning....and again after Noah.  God failed twice.
> 
> If he knew Adam's decision from the beginning and had the glorious coming of Christ in mind and had the redemption of the world at his fingertips and had Satan's ultimate crushing defeat as the known ending....then everything that has happened up until now and everything that will happen going foward is simply leading up to the greatest day....the day of the Lord....just as he designed it and foreknew.
> 
> If he simply hoped that Adam would choose well, then he didn't know the end at the beginning.  He's just been improvising ever since.



Based on what you've said above, let me ask you a question.

Why are the scriptures concerning those two situations written the way they are then?

Why do the scriptures blame Adam and Eve is God didn't even give them control?  What does that say about the scriptures?

Why do the scriptures paint a picture of God being grieved painfully in His heart at the thought of mankind becoming totally evil, if God had planned it before it occurred?  Why didn't Gen 6 just make it clear to us that God had preordained that Noah would be 'saved' by God?

What does that say about the scriptures?

*There are people telling me that it didn't go down the way the scriptures have recorded it.  That, in truth, God preordained that the world would need to be destroyed by a flood.  But the scriptures make it appear God did it because the world had, of their own choosing, turned away from Him.  Isn't that a lie?

Shouldn't I be able to believe the story of Adam and Eve and also Noah, as recorded in God's word?


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> He predestined us...through Christ.
> 
> 
> Let that marinate for a little while.
> 
> 
> 
> I most certainly disagree with you....but I get the sense from your attitude that further discussion on it won't be very fruitful.



But you've got to admit that there's actually nothing in verse 13 or the rest of that book that will lean those Christians towards individual predestination.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> But you've got to admit that there's actually nothing in verse 13 or the rest of that book that will lean those Christians towards individual predestination.



I see nothing that indicates that anything in the first 12 verses references the Jewish people and, honestly, have never read or heard that interpretation before.  

I don't see anything either before or after vs 13 about how glad he is that they made the right choice.  The whole rest of the book is covered up with God saving them through grace.  God saves.

Can you explain specifically what leads you to believe that he is talking about the Jewish people in the first 12 verses and then contrasts the gentiles from verse 13 on through the rest of the entire book?

I've heard a lot of arguments against what most people believe predestination is....but I've honestly never heard this one...ever.


----------



## Ronnie T

Here's what I believe.

1.  I believe God is all powerful and can cause anything to happen that He desires.

2.  I believe God created mankind in His image, and with the ability to love his creator.

3.  I believe God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve and to tempt and harm Job.  I believe God continues to do those sorts of things today.

4.  I believe God created mankind with the ability to love and adore his creator.

5.  I believe God foreordained that, one day, He would chose a nation(Israel) as His very own.  Not individually, but as a nation.

6.  I believe that God foreordained that one day he would send His Son into the world to make salvation available to all who would believe in God through the Son.

7.  I believe that God calls down lightening bolts, if he has a specific purpose in doing it.  But I don't believe God calls down every lightening bolt.

8.  I do not believe God placed evilness within the hearts of rapist, childmolesters, etc.  But I believe God allowed the world to find wickedness to that degree.

9.  I further believe that my little pea brain is far from being 'up' on the workings of God.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> I see nothing that indicates that anything in the first 12 verses references the Jewish people and, honestly, have never read or heard that interpretation before.
> 
> I don't see anything either before or after vs 13 about how glad he is that they made the right choice.  The whole rest of the book is covered up with God saving them through grace.  God saves.
> 
> Can you explain specifically what leads you to believe that he is talking about the Jewish people in the first 12 verses and then contrasts the gentiles from verse 13 on through the rest of the entire book?
> 
> I've heard a lot of arguments against what most people believe predestination is....but I've honestly never heard this one...ever.



In verse 3 thru 12 Paul never uses the word "You".
It's all "We's" and "Us's".
Finally, in verse 13, Paul speaks directly to, and about the Ephesians.


----------



## Huntinfool

and what indicates to you that "we" and "us" refers to Jews?  That's what I'm asking.  There is nothing there that indicates "us" is the Jewish people.  Everything in there is referencing what has happened since Jesus.

It makes more sense that "us" is referring to the first Christians.  Those verses are full of reference to Jesus Christ and predestination through him.  As far as the Jews were concerned Jesus was not the Christ and they certainly were not holy and blameless before God (as "us" is referenced in the 1st 12 verses).


----------



## hobbs27

Lowjack said:


> Rom 8;29
> 
> "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers"
> So if G-d knew you even before you were incarnated , he also knew you would accept him and you would be saved.
> Is that too hard to understand ?
> 
> Christ died for the sins of the World , so everyone is saved if you chose to be saved , but God knows who would be and would not be saved , otherwise he would not be the Allmighty.
> But so that no one can claim hey I was lost unfairly , he made it our choice to accept forgiveness or not.
> 
> Time after time the Bible teaches Salvation is of God and His salvation , Yeh-Shua jesus means His salvation, so if salvation is his why would you lose it ? It is not yours to lose , you didn't pay for anything ,he did . You are his and no one can take you from him.



Well said...I might add if you would allow, and again going back to Lazarus and the rich man.The reason God gives all the invitation, even knowing that some will reject, is its part of the eternal torment.Knowing that is you yourself that denied God, and God is not to blame...only you!


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> But you've got to admit that there's actually nothing in verse 13 or the rest of that book that will lean those Christians towards individual predestination.



I am curious as to why you think there would be, seeing how it is already addressed.


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> If you, a sinner, trust Jesus Christ alone as your Lord and Savior, your faith in him is the evidence of election.
> 
> “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36)
> "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: " (1 John 5:1)
> "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 16:17)



Not sure you meant to post what you did, but your very words, "If you, a sinner, trust Jesus Christ alone as your Lord and Savior, your faith in him is the evidence of election.", then trust and faith are works that follow election,that is, give evidence of election. 
The problem is that, as you describe it, election and salvation are an accomplished fact, requiring no "work" on our part. That would allow for the possibility of the "elect" not trusting, not placing their faith in Christ and his work on the cross. While election is clearly indicated by Scripture to be accomplished before the foundation of the Earth, it can not be synonymous with salvation, which must happen during the earthly life of the individual. It would be, to my mind, heresy to fail to acknowledge that all this happens through the power of the living LORD, yet it nonetheless requires a response on our part (again, empowered by God).

I truly believe that most all the debate on this matter is the result of differences in interpretation and definition, combined with the difficulty of accurately communicating our thoughts, especially in this medium.


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> As I continue to gain more understanding of what "predestined" really means, I understand that "predestined" does not mean "caused" in the way that we understand that word.



Predestinate = to foreordain to an earthly or eternal lot or destiny by divine decree.

proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: Ï€Ï�Î¿Î¿Ï�Î¯Î¶Ï‰
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Short Definition: I foreordain, predetermine
Definition: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> Not sure you meant to post what you did, but your very words, "If you, a sinner, trust Jesus Christ alone as your Lord and Savior, your faith in him is the evidence of election.", then trust and faith are works that follow election,that is, give evidence of election. The problem is that, as you describe it, election and salvation are an accomplished fact, requiring no "work" on our part.


Salvation is secured in eternity. Faith is the gift of God.


gtparts said:


> That would allow for the possibility of the "elect" not trusting, not placing their faith in Christ and his work on the cross.


Impossible. My hope is not my faith in Christ, but the faith of Christ by which my salvation was accomplished. 


gtparts said:


> While election is clearly indicated by Scripture to be accomplished before the foundation of the Earth, it can not be synonymous with salvation, which must happen during the earthly life of the individual. It would be, to my mind, heresy to fail to acknowledge that all this happens through the power of the living LORD, yet it nonetheless requires a response on our part (again, empowered by God).


The elect will respond through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.”(2 Cor. 5:18) In salvation, nothing is attributed to man, caused by man, or dependent upon man. “All things are of God.”


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Knowing that is you yourself that denied God, and God is not to blame...only you!



How could you deny God if predestined to do so?
Trusting, believing, acting Holy, being rightious, etc.. aren't  traits of predestiny or election.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Ronnie, tell me where I ever said God chooses those TO love him?

Also, in your "Ronnie creed", number one. You believe God is all powerful and basically can do as he wants yet deny that he could choose some and not others. Really? 

Anyways, just got the news my dads got cancer in his liver, thyroid, and lung. At this point, I could care less how he gets there as long as he's going. 

Peace to all


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How could you deny God if predestined to do so?
> Trusting, believing, acting Holy, being rightious, etc.. aren't  traits of predestiny or election.



I don't believe in predestination as the way it's being sold.
I believe we will all get the chance to be saved, salvation will be offered to all...or at least all will hear the path to salvation.I know from scripture there will be a lot of people thinking they have what it takes but won't.

Many will reject God and secure their place in he11...

Did God know who would accept and who would reject Him from the beginning? I have to say yes. Did he give us all the same opportunity...again I have to say yes. So it is us that makes the decision, God made the path, we decide which road to take.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ronnie, tell me where I ever said God chooses those TO love him?
> 
> Also, in your "Ronnie creed", number one. You believe God is all powerful and basically can do as he wants yet deny that he could choose some and not others. Really?
> 
> Anyways, just got the news my dads got cancer in his liver, thyroid, and lung. At this point, I could care less how he gets there as long as he's going.
> 
> Peace to all



I'm very sorry to hear that.  It sounds like the cancer is very wide-spread.  God Bless him and all of you.
I've just said a pray for him.

As long as he's going.  Yep.  Death isn't a bad thing.


----------



## Ronnie T

Two verses from Ephesians 1.

""""In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. """""""

(gearshift)

13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Ronnie, tell me where I ever said God chooses those TO love him?
> 
> Also, in your "Ronnie creed", number one. You believe God is all powerful and basically can do as he wants yet deny that he could choose some and not others. Really?
> 
> Anyways, just got the news my dads got cancer in his liver, thyroid, and lung. At this point, I could care less how he gets there as long as he's going.
> 
> Peace to all



I believe He does choose some but not others.
I believe He chooses those who believe in His Son, after they believe in His Son, not before.

I believe God has the power to choose everyone who has ever lived; or, destroy everyone who has ever lived.

But I believe God only chooses those who love Him of their own accord..... Like Job was able to do.  And like Noah, and David, and Abraham, etc.

I believe it is that choice of love that God wants more than anything.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Gem, thanks man and yes he is a believer, and a die hard Predestinatarian.


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Gem, thanks man and yes he is a believer, and a die hard Predestinatarian.



Ronnie


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Ronnie



 Ronnie, I had sent him a private message earlier. He replied here instead of a PM.


----------



## Ronnie T

Good deal.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> What you talkin' bout Willis?
> 
> 
> View attachment 671488



Ok, (and I am not being sarcastic, just trying to convey a point) if God preordains everything, then everything is God's will.....good, evil, murder, molestation, strawberries, red velvet cake, kittens, the macarena, and Jimmy Carter.  All of it.   God's hand directing the universe as he wishes.

Now, ultimately God will win the good evil struggle, but what is defeating?  If evil is his preordained plan, then ultimately, God will be defeating his own plan......and that would be preordained too, so really, it's not a victory over anything, just another act in the script.

And, if evil is part of God's plan, and God is good, then there is no evil to defeat to start with.

Anyway, apologies for getting defensive.


----------



## Lowjack

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Low jack, please tell me where it says God foreknew those who would accept him? I totally missed that verse. And in others where it is to the good pleasure of his will, I missed the verse that said according to mans will.
> 
> Just show me the verse where election and predestinate are according to mans will. Not what you think I means but where it says that.



Romans 8;29 couldn't be more clear
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, You can't be changed into the image of his son unless you are saved , although he foreknew the Jews first he extended salvation by his blood atonement to all , John 3;16-17 is very simple he who believes is saved he who doesn't is not saved , it shows man's has the free will to accept or reject.


----------



## Lowjack

Ronnie T said:


> I believe He does choose some but not others.
> I believe He chooses those who believe in His Son, after they believe in His Son, not before.
> 
> I believe God has the power to choose everyone who has ever lived; or, destroy everyone who has ever lived.
> 
> But I believe God only chooses those who love Him of their own accord..... Like Job was able to do.  And like Noah, and David, and Abraham, etc.
> 
> I believe it is that choice of love that God wants more than anything.



We as Humans choose whom we will allow in our home and family , so does God.
I agree with you.

If G-d didn't know who would be saved then he is not Omnicient and then Would't be G-d.


----------



## gordon 2

Lowjack said:


> Romans 8;29 couldn't be more clear
> "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, You can't be changed into the image of his son unless you are saved , although he foreknew the Jews first he extended salvation by his blood atonement to all , John 3;16-17 is very simple he who believes is saved he who doesn't is not saved , it shows man's has the free will to accept or reject.



I see this as a great judgement. Man is being sifted. 

The image of his Son is the image of Adam. And surely God foreknew those who's father, our father, we understand to be the very first Adam. For this we know the second Adam, Jesus.

Now the fall of the old Adam is old news; but  Adam before the fall and the raising of  second Adam is once again and now Good News.


----------



## rockman7

Lowjack said:


> We as Humans choose whom we will allow in our home and family , so does God.
> I agree with you.
> 
> If G-d didn't know who would be saved then he is not Omnicient and then Would't be G-d.



there is our problem.....we think God can do "anything". He cannot!!!

can He lie??? no!! can He make a mistake??? no!!! can He absolve sin ??? no there had to be a sacrifice for that sin!!!

God is held to His own standards and laws


----------



## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> Romans 8;29 couldn't be more clear
> "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, You can't be changed into the image of his son unless you are saved , although he foreknew the Jews first he extended salvation by his blood atonement to all , John 3;16-17 is very simple he who believes is saved he who doesn't is not saved , it shows man's has the free will to accept or reject.



How could God foreknow the Jews first if he foreknew everything?


----------



## Artfuldodger

How does some Christians being rich and some poor work in predestination vs individuals being responsible for their finances?
Can we stop taking care of our health & safety? Can we stop strapping our babies in carseats? 
On another subject about Adam & Noah, God didn't mess up man did. God doesn't want man to sin. He would have been happy if we had never sinned.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I don't believe in predestination as the way it's being sold.


Predestination is very offensive when we want things done our way. It is no more or less than God 
arranging from eternity, everything necessary, to bring his elect children into heaven. Why would we want it any other way?



hobbs27 said:


> So it is us that makes the decision, God made the path, we decide which road to take.


So salvation is totally dependent on us. God did everything he could do except secure it. We secure it with a decision as to which road to travel.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> God didn't mess up man did. God doesn't want man to sin. He would have been happy if we had never sinned.



And who created man and governs creation? Who is this frustrated God you speak of that just can't seem to get anything right?


----------



## gemcgrew

rockman7 said:


> can He absolve sin ??? no there had to be a sacrifice for that sin!!!


See a contradiction?


----------



## gemcgrew

Lowjack said:


> Romans 8;29 couldn't be more clear
> "For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, You can't be changed into the image of his son unless you are saved , although he foreknew the Jews first he extended salvation by his blood atonement to all , John 3;16-17 is very simple he who believes is saved he who doesn't is not saved , it shows man's has the free will to accept or reject.



Lowjack, God chose the nation of Israel to be his people and passed by all other nations of the world. God gave his law to Israel alone and established his worship in Israel alone. What of the other nations? Did they have any ability whatsoever to worship God?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> So salvation is totally dependent on us.


Thats right.The grace is there if you have the faith to receive it.



gemcgrew said:


> God did everything he could do except secure it. We secure it with a decision as to which road to travel.


Yes
A bluebird has no choice to be anything but a bluebird, a deer has no choice to be anything but a deer.They both glorify God by being what they are....but man is different, we have a choice to glorify God by being born spiritually into his kingdom, or not.
This is what I believe according to the scriptures but mostly by my own experience of grace.

Why did the rich man want to send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers, so that they may repent and not end up as he did....if they were preordained to end up in he11?
The rich man had already faced judgement and knew why he had been sentenced to eternal he11...The scripture is clear that had he repented(changed from his evil ways) that his destiny would have been different.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Thats right.The grace is there if you have the faith to receive it.



So only those who can muster up enough faith receive grace?


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> So only those who can muster up enough faith receive grace?



Don't know how much faith it takes, I just know it takes faith.

Why did the rich man want his brethren to repent?


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Why did the rich man want his brethren to repent?



We know there is no salvation where there is no repentance.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Don't know how much faith it takes, I just know it takes faith.



Hobbs, when we started talking about faith, this video popped into my head. Had to post it.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Gem, either they deny faith is a fruit (result of) the spirit or that man was dead in trespasses and sin.

Until that is understood, they will never understand it. You can't exercise that which you don't have and are incapable of using it anyway.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


>




"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

If that's what he means, I agree.  I get the impression that's not what he means, though.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

It doesn't say half dead in trespasses and sins. It's dead. Period. 

What happens to someone who never hears your gospel? And they die. What happens?

And to those before Christ? And please don't give me he went Dow in Earth and preached to them because that's not in the Bible. What happens to them?


----------



## hobbs27

CollinsCraft77 said:


> It doesn't say half dead in trespasses and sins. It's dead. Period.
> 
> What happens to someone who never hears your gospel? And they die. What happens?
> 
> And to those before Christ? And please don't give me he went Dow in Earth and preached to them because that's not in the Bible. What happens to them?



Its in my bible.
http://www.biblestudyplanet.com/s175.htm


----------



## JB0704

CollinsCraft77 said:


> It doesn't say half dead in trespasses and sins. It's dead. Period.
> 
> What happens to someone who never hears your gospel? And they die. What happens?
> 
> And to those before Christ? And please don't give me he went Dow in Earth and preached to them because that's not in the Bible. What happens to them?



This kind-of hits on it....



> *Romans 1:20 *For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse



If it was all God "electing" them, why would anybody need an excuse?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> We know there is no salvation where there is no repentance.



Repent for what?  If we have no free will we are victims of design.

Repent to who?  If our sin nature is pre planned, then we are just doing God's will when we sin.

Is God making us say "sorry" to him for doing things he made us do?


----------



## Huntinfool

No one (that I have seen) has suggested that God controls every detail of our lives or every single thing that happens.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
> 
> If that's what he means, I agree.  I get the impression that's not what he means, though.



They must have ears to hear. That hearing is the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. God gives power to the powerless, hearing to the deaf, eyes to the blind and life to the dead.


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> No one (that I have seen) has suggested that God controls every detail of our lives or every single thing that happens.



Here I am. "All Things"


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Repent for what?  If we have no free will we are victims of design.
> 
> Repent to who?  If our sin nature is pre planned, then we are just doing God's will when we sin.
> 
> Is God making us say "sorry" to him for doing things he made us do?



"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"(Romans 9:19,20)


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> They must have ears to hear.



God gives us two ears at birth.


----------



## Huntinfool

gemcgrew said:


> Here I am. "All Things"



Perhaps I should have said "dictates" rather than "controls".  That's what I meant.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Perhaps I should have said "dictates" rather than "controls".  That's what I meant.



If I am correct, Gem's position is that there is no free will, and all actions are controlled....if I am wrong, I apologize.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Perhaps I should have said "dictates" rather than "controls".  That's what I meant.



Is there a difference?


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Predestination is very offensive when we want things done our way. It is no more or less than God
> arranging from eternity, everything necessary, to bring his elect children into heaven. Why would we want it any other way?
> 
> 
> So salvation is totally dependent on us. God did everything he could do except secure it. We secure it with a decision as to which road to travel.



Believing in God won't get a person anything, until God accepts you and adds you to His kingdom.
No one saves themselves.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"(Romans 9:19,20)



Why would the "non-elect" need an excuse.

I get what you are saying with the verse above, but I do not think it means what you think it means, and it seems we are clearly seperated by denominational differences.  I believe it is simply a statement on questioning God relevant to consequences of existence.  Read along, and it discusses how the two types of people pursue righteousness, and "the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."


----------



## Ronnie T

If God predestined everything, then there is no
 use in praying for your friends or family.

Basically, God has already predestined the events
 and no appealing to God will likely change his mind- 
it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> Is there a difference?



Absolutely there is.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> God gives us two ears at birth.



You know I am not talking about physical ears.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Absolutely there is.



Care to elaborate?


----------



## Ronnie T

Where does this verse fit into being pre chosen

 (James 5:19-20)
"My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth
 and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns 
a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul 
from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "


----------



## Artfuldodger

How many different outlooks are their on this?
Predestiny where God controls every minute detail of everything.
Limited Predestiny where God controls some things as he sees fit as in answering a prayer. This could also be called Limited Freewill.
Total freewill where God controls nothing. I don't think any Christian believes this.
Last but not least is the belief that God knows everything but he doesn't control it. He just knew it would happen that way. Example would be he already knows who will be saved.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> If God predestined everything, then there is no use in praying for your friends or family.
> 
> Basically, God has already predestined the events
> and no appealing to God will likely change his mind-
> it has already been predestined and cannot be changed.


"But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth." (Job 23:13)

_But he is in one mind,.... Either with respect to his commandments, every precept remains in full force, he never alters the thing that is gone out of his lips, or delivers out other commandments different from, or contrary to what he has given; and therefore Job thought it his duty to abide by them, and not decline from them; which is the sense of a Jewish commentator (c), connecting the words with the preceding: Or with respect to his dispensations towards Job in afflicting him; which he continued notwithstanding his innocence, because he is a sovereign Being, and does whatsoever he pleases; he is unchangeable in his purposes and decrees; he is not to be wrought upon by any means to alter his fixed course; he is not to be contradicted nor resisted; and this was the reason why he would not be found by him, though he sought him so earnestly and diligently, and why he would not hear him, and would not appear to try his cause, though he knew he was innocent, because he was determined to go on to afflict him; and he never changes his mind, or alters his counsels, on any account whatever. _ (Gill)

_But he is in one mind - He is unchangeable. He has formed his plans, and no one can divert him from them. Of the truth of this sentiment there can be no dispute. The only difficulty in the case is to see why Job adverted to it here, and how it bears on the train of thought which he was pursuing. The idea seems to be, that God was now accomplishing his eternal purposes in respect to him; that he had formed a plan far back in eternal ages, and that that plan must be executed; that he was a Sovereign, and that however mysterious his plans might be, it was vain to contend with them, and that man ought to submit to their execution with patience and resignation. Job expected yet that God would come forth and vindicate him; but at present all that he could do was to submit. He did not pretend to understand the reason of the divine dispensations; he felt that he had no power to resist God. The language here is that of a man who is perplexed in regard to the divine dealings, but who feels that they are all in accordance with the unchangeable purpose of God._(Barnes)


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> You know I am not talking about physical ears.



Yeah, but I just disagree that God gives that to us.


----------



## gen273

Like it was stated earlier,  I doubt we will settle this argument here, but my view God and faith in Him has grown and changed so much since I came to the realization of the totality of GOD.  God is Love , but God is also Just.  This gets left out a lot because we don’t want to think about good people going to he11.  With emotion aside, think about like this.  We ALL are guilty of sin and deserve He11, God sent his only Son to die for the flock (this is real grace).  If he died for everyone, doesn't that mean that the people in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - wasted Jesus's blood?  We all have to agree that if God wanted all people in heaven then it would be so, I don’t have an answer as to why certain people get in and why others don’t.  As Paul says in Romans, this is not the way I want it to be (because I have sisters who do not yet know God) but it is the way it is because God is Perfect and what right do we have to question the Potter?  
The statements about not having to pray or do anything since its already been decided are void.  We come to God by the HS beginning a work in us.  Before this we had no possibility to do good but when God starts a work in us he finishes...when you became saved did you not desire to worship, pray, and tell everyone about what has changed in you?  We are commanded to do this.
I choose not to think about it like this but consider the other flip side of the coin.... You say we are just puppets?  Well if we are choosing our way into salvation aren’t we playing puppet with GOD?? If I had to pick the one of the two it would definitely be the first one!!


----------



## centerpin fan

gen273 said:


> Well if we are choosing our way into salvation aren’t we playing puppet with GOD??



No, we're just accepting a gift.  

Some people accept the gift.  Others decline it.


----------



## barryl

How about this, instead of shooting in the dark,will the ones that are practicing Calvinist enlighten us{TULIP} start from the top T- Total Depravity, U- Unconditional election, L- Limited Atonement I-Irrestible Grace, Predestination or Perseverance of the Saints. BTW, I am not a Calvinist, never will be. This will save a lot of wild speculation, the floor is your's !!


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Yeah, but I just disagree that God gives that to us.


And I understand your position that man may be a little sick but is not dead. 

I have a family member(Niece's husband), 27 yrs old, who was going through a separation with his wife and children. This man was going through tremendous pain and suffering. If there ever was a man ripe for conversion, he was it. In the last few weeks, I was able to spend a lot of time with him, in person and by phone. I encouraged him over and over to seek the Lord. I invited him to stay with us as long as he needed to. I pointed him to Christ the Comforter. We had great conversations regarding spiritual things. He wasn't a sinner. He continued to tell me how good of a guy he is and how hard of a worker. He could not hear the good news of how Christ saves sinners. He shot himself yesterday or today, in his closet. God makes the sinner, through the revealing power of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> And I understand your position that man may be a little sick but is not dead.



I don't think you do.  Man's problem is death, not sickness.

"The wages of sin is death."


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> How about this, instead of shooting in the dark,will the ones that are practicing Calvinist enlighten us{TULIP} start from the top T- Total Depravity, U- Unconditional election, L- Limited Atonement I-Irrestible Grace, Predestination or Perseverance of the Saints. BTW, I am not a Calvinist, never will be. This will save a lot of wild speculation, the floor is your's !!



There is no salvation in Calvinism. Salvation is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is of the Lord. If you want to start a thread on T.U.L.I.P or S.E.A.T.U.L.I.P, have at it.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> I have a family member(Niece's husband), 27 yrs old, who was going through a separation with his wife and children. This man was going through tremendous pain and suffering. If there ever was a man ripe for conversion, he was it. In the last few weeks, I was able to spend a lot of time with him, in person and by phone. I encouraged him over and over to seek the Lord. I invited him to stay with us as long as he needed to. I pointed him to Christ the Comforter. We had great conversations regarding spiritual things. He wasn't a sinner. He continued to tell me how good of a guy he is and how hard of a worker. He could not hear the good news of how Christ saves sinners. He shot himself yesterday or today, in his closet. God makes the sinner, through the revealing power of the Holy Spirit.



Very sorry to hear.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> Where does this verse fit into being pre chosen
> 
> (James 5:19-20)
> "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth
> and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns
> a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul
> from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "





gemcgrew said:


> "But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth." (Job 23:13)
> 
> _But he is in one mind,.... Either with respect to his commandments, every precept remains in full force, he never alters the thing that is gone out of his lips, or delivers out other commandments different from, or contrary to what he has given; and therefore Job thought it his duty to abide by them, and not decline from them; which is the sense of a Jewish commentator (c), connecting the words with the preceding: Or with respect to his dispensations towards Job in afflicting him; which he continued notwithstanding his innocence, because he is a sovereign Being, and does whatsoever he pleases; he is unchangeable in his purposes and decrees; he is not to be wrought upon by any means to alter his fixed course; he is not to be contradicted nor resisted; and this was the reason why he would not be found by him, though he sought him so earnestly and diligently, and why he would not hear him, and would not appear to try his cause, though he knew he was innocent, because he was determined to go on to afflict him; and he never changes his mind, or alters his counsels, on any account whatever. _ (Gill)
> 
> _But he is in one mind - He is unchangeable. He has formed his plans, and no one can divert him from them. Of the truth of this sentiment there can be no dispute. The only difficulty in the case is to see why Job adverted to it here, and how it bears on the train of thought which he was pursuing. The idea seems to be, that God was now accomplishing his eternal purposes in respect to him; that he had formed a plan far back in eternal ages, and that that plan must be executed; that he was a Sovereign, and that however mysterious his plans might be, it was vain to contend with them, and that man ought to submit to their execution with patience and resignation. Job expected yet that God would come forth and vindicate him; but at present all that he could do was to submit. He did not pretend to understand the reason of the divine dispensations; he felt that he had no power to resist God. The language here is that of a man who is perplexed in regard to the divine dealings, but who feels that they are all in accordance with the unchangeable purpose of God._(Barnes)



I ask about James 5:20 and what do you do?  You give me two other people's views on a totally different verse.

             Never mind.


----------



## barryl

*If You*



gemcgrew said:


> If you, a sinner, trust Jesus Christ alone as your Lord and Savior, your faith in him is the evidence of election.
> 
> “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36)
> "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: " (1 John 5:1)
> "flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."(Matthew 16:17)


Thanks for the reply,I guess I didn't make myself clear, I asked how you practicing Calvinist know you are the elect or Pred. I am not a Calvinist, I was saved via EPH. 2:8-9, Romans Ch. 10 I forsook my own righteousness and excepted Gods perfect righteousness, The Lord Jesus Christ!!


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I ask about James 5:20 and what do you do?  You give me two other people's views on a totally different verse.
> 
> Never mind.



That was a response to post #205, not #209. I am having fits getting this forum to load today. Not sure if it posted incorrectly.

Ronnie, I will be glad to respond to #209. Not sure why the attitude though.


----------



## barryl

*Sorry*



gemcgrew said:


> There is no salvation in Calvinism. Salvation is not in a system of doctrine or theology. Salvation is of the Lord. If you want to start a thread on T.U.L.I.P or S.E.A.T.U.L.I.P, have at it.


Sorry about your loved one, I did'nt direct my question at you only, there are others posting on this thread. Calvinism- Philosophical Theology


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Where does this verse fit into being pre chosen
> 
> (James 5:19-20)
> "My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. "



Ronnie, it would appear to me to indicate that God uses human interaction to accomplish his purpose toward chosen sinners. If a believer strays from truth and is found in error, we should correct them? Maybe? It is worded in such a way that I find it difficult. Is it not addressing believers that may have a erred in doctrine?


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> Thanks for the reply,I guess I didn't make myself clear, I asked how you practicing Calvinist know you are the elect or Pred.



I know that I am one of the elect because I am born again. I did not know or care prior to that.


----------



## JB0704

gen273 said:


> Like it was stated earlier,  I doubt we will settle this argument here, but my view God and faith in Him has grown and changed so much since I came to the realization of the totality of GOD.



Fantastic.



gen273 said:


> God is Love , but God is also Just.



One does not negate the other.



gen273 said:


> With emotion aside, think about like this.  We ALL are guilty of sin and deserve He11,



If you are correct, this would be the "just" God's doing.  Not sure where love would play in such a ssytem.




gen273 said:


> God sent his only Son to die for the flock (this is real grace).



Again, if God preordained sin, I am befuddled as to why a sacrifice was needed.  It seems as if Jesus was payiong for God's actions, not ours.  Because is God preordains everything, then sin is God's design.




gen273 said:


> If he died for everyone, doesn't that mean that the people in he11 wasted Jesus's blood?



That is certainly one way to look at it.




gen273 said:


> We all have to agree that if God wanted all people in heaven then it would be so.



The Bible is very clear that God wants everybody in heaven, and that not many folks get there.  I listed the scriptures previously.




gen273 said:


> As Paul says in Romans, this is not the way I want it to be (because I have sisters who do not yet know God) but it is the way it is because God is Perfect and what right do we have to question the Potter?



What is interesting is folks' reluctance to question God, but their zeal to speak for him.




gen273 said:


> The statements about not having to pray or do anything since its already been decided are void.



Care to give a valid defense of this statement?  If God preordains everything, then prayer matters nothing, will change nothing, and ultimately, are the reult of God making you pray.

So, if you don't pray, that would be God's will also.




gen273 said:


> We come to God by the HS beginning a work in us.  Before this we had no possibility to do good but when God starts a work in us he finishes...when you became saved did you not desire to worship, pray, and tell everyone about what has changed in you?  We are commanded to do this.



Why are we commanded if it is all the work of the HS?  In fact, why have the Bible at all?



gen273 said:


> I choose not to think about it like this but consider the other flip side of the coin.... You say we are just puppets?  Well if we are choosing our way into salvation aren’t we playing puppet with GOD??!!



No.  You are the one making rules about God's nature and actions.


----------



## JB0704

Can somebody please explain why the "non-elect" would need an excuse?

If the are condemned because God spoke it, why would God even judge them?

Am I the only one who sees the big gaping hole in the predestination position?  I mean, the whole Bible is useless if you are correct.


----------



## hobbs27

JB0704 said:


> Am I the only one who sees the big gaping hole in the predestination position?  I mean, the whole Bible is useless if you are correct.



No.I think it's a minority position in Christianity...not near as dangerous as some of the more modern, more popular ways of salvation.
 I think I'd rather have a preacher tell a lost person they never had a chance than to tell them to say these words after me or sign here and you're salvation is secure.
 I even witnessed a man call all people to the altar that had never been saved, he prayed over them and told them he would lay hands on them and they would recieve salvation by him doing this.....I just got up and left.
 Our salvation, we carry with us to our death and it's personal between us and God. However you get it..you better know that you got it for real! Its the most important thing on this side!


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Can somebody please explain why the "non-elect" would need an excuse?


I'm not sure what you are asking. Perhaps I missed something.



JB0704 said:


> If the are condemned because God spoke it, why would God even judge them?


They are condemned because they are guilty. God is sovereign and makes man responsible. He has that right.



JB0704 said:


> Am I the only one who sees the big gaping hole in the predestination position?  I mean, the whole Bible is useless if you are correct.


The whole Bible has one message. From start to finish, it has one theme and one theme only, Christ!


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> No.I think it's a minority position in Christianity...not near as dangerous as some of the more modern, more popular ways of salvation.
> I think I'd rather have a preacher tell a lost person they never had a chance than to tell them to say these words after me or sign here and you're salvation is secure.
> I even witnessed a man call all people to the altar that had never been saved, he prayed over them and told them he would lay hands on them and they would recieve salvation by him doing this.....I just got up and left.
> Our salvation, we carry with us to our death and it's personal between us and God. However you get it..you better know that you got it for real! Its the most important thing on this side!



If I am guilty of anything, it is attributing too much to God and too little to man. But I don't think it possible. As I mentioned earlier, I have been battling for the life of a relative. He killed himself yesterday or today. I pleaded with him the best I could, to see Christ. I fought for him the best I could. We shared so much in common as far as life events go. He died with no hope. It was not my hope to give, but I tried. I tried.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If I am guilty of anything, it is attributing too much to God and too little to man. But I don't think it possible. As I mentioned earlier, I have been battling for the life of a relative. He killed himself yesterday or today. I pleaded with him the best I could, to see Christ. I fought for him the best I could. We shared so much in common as far as life events go. He died with no hope. It was not my hope to give, but I tried. I tried.



You did what you were suppose to do.  God gave you the wisdom and spirit to carry Jesus Christ to this person.  That was His call.  God did not deny him, and God did not deny you.
Jesus' commission said:  Go teach the salvation that's available in Christ.  They who accept it and Him will be saved.  Those who will not accept it will be condemned.

You did what God asked us all to do.  You can't do any more.


----------



## ambush80

Ronnie T said:


> You did what you were suppose to do.  God gave you the wisdom and spirit to carry Jesus Christ to this person.  That was His call.  God did not deny him, and God did not deny you.
> Jesus' commission said:  Go teach the salvation that's available in Christ.  They who accept it and Him will be saved.  Those who will not accept it will be condemned.
> 
> You did what God asked us all to do.  You can't do any more.



I'm right here, right now in real time and I will tell you right now that if god exists, he doesn't want me to believe. As far as I can tell, he designed me to be a vessel of wrath.  Who am I to argue?  Who are you to argue?


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> I'm right here, right now in real time and I will tell you right now that if god exists, he doesn't want me to believe.


Right now in real time, I would have to agree.


ambush80 said:


> As far as I can tell, he designed me to be a vessel of wrath.  Who am I to argue?  Who are you to argue?


That is bold but I understand.

Now, how about we get together sometime at a restaurant of your liking. Wives included of coarse. I will let you arm wrestle mine for the bill. I have to warn you though. She paid many a bar tab in her youth with her winnings.


----------



## Huntinfool

centerpin fan said:


> I don't think you do.  Man's problem is death, not sickness.
> 
> "The wages of sin is death."



cf, you and I agree on many things.  But could you re-think what you posted here for me?

Man's problem is death, not sin?  I know that's not what you said, but it's the implication of what you said in reference to the scripture you posted with it.

This is not about us.  I think that's the issue that many christians don't get.  Creation is not about man...it's about God.  We are here for one reason and that is to glorify God.

Our problem is sin....sickness.  Sin seperates the created from the creator...not death.  Death is the consequence of that, yes.  But death is not our problem unless we are focussed on us and not God.  

Sin is man's problem and we are all covered with it.  If we are worried about dieing more than healing the sickness, it's no wonder there is so much disagreement on the issue.


----------



## Huntinfool

> He died with no hope. It was not my hope to give, but I tried. I tried.



With the others, I am sorry for your family's loss.

If you don't mind, I'd like to use this quote to clarify something.

If God does not choose those who will be saved, then all that happened here is that our brother was not a good enough "salesman for God".  He wasn't convincing enough for his nephew or the message wasn't powerful enough.

Most of those who don't buy predestination will say "well, he just wasn't ready.".  Ready for what?  Either the message gets through or it doesn't...especially when you are this desperate.

What happened here was that God had not moved in this man's life.  Our brother (who I'm fairly certain is very well versed and as convincing as any of us could hope to be) presented to gospel to someone who was DESPERATE for help...and he did not respond.

*If he was so desperate for help, why did the most powerful message in the world; the message that we ALL agree is the most hopeful message of all...why did that not get through to him?*

...because God did not move on him.  I truly wish he had.  I don't know why he didn't.  But if that message is as powerful and hopeful as we all say it is, then this man, of any, would have responded...and he did not.

If salvation is left up to us, we are in a mess of trouble folks.


gem, I pray that this post is not offensive in any way.  If it is, then shoot me a PM and I'll make it go away.


----------



## StriperAddict

ambush80 said:


> I'm right here, right now in real time and I will tell you right now that if god exists, he doesn't want me to believe. As far as I can tell, he designed me to be a vessel of wrath. Who am I to argue? Who are you to argue?


 
I will argue the case for your redemption until your last breath.  

Until our last .... heaven pleads:
For us; for me, for you, for all.

*2 Peter 3:9*
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to *perish* but for all to come to repentance.

I trust that His mercy and love will shine into your heart like a beacon someday, A.  You may have given up hope to that end, but Providence/Heaven/Grace did not. And neither will I.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> I'm not sure what you are asking. Perhaps I missed something.



Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

Why would they need an excuse if it is God who determines the winners and losers?




gemcgrew said:


> They are condemned because they are guilty. God is sovereign and makes man responsible. He has that right.



Responsibility for condemnation and sin would fall on God under your system.  I get that you accept that, I do not.




gemcgrew said:


> The whole Bible has one message. From start to finish, it has one theme and one theme only, Christ!



Why is Christ necessary if everything is planned?  If God only calls who he will, such could be done without the sacrifice.


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> gem, I pray that this post is not offensive in any way.  If it is, then shoot me a PM and I'll make it go away.



Not offensive at all. What is offensive to me is to be told that Christ died as this man's substitute and Christ paid this man's debt. But God required yet something from this man. Twice payment for the same offense. That not only makes this man a failure but Christ also.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> If God does not choose those who will be saved, then all that happened here is that our brother was not a good enough "salesman for God".  He wasn't convincing enough for his nephew or the message wasn't powerful enough.



Or, the other party was unwilling to listen.   It doesn't have to have a single thing to do with anybody's "sales abilities."  People are free to accept or reject.  It seems in this case the individual rejected.  



gemcgrew said:


> Most of those who don't buy predestination will say "well, he just wasn't ready.".  Ready for what?  Either the message gets through or it doesn't...especially when you are this desperate.



Or, they say "he just didn't accept it."



gemcgrew said:


> *If he was so desperate for help, why did the most powerful message in the world; the message that we ALL agree is the most hopeful message of all...why did that not get through to him?*



Because he was free to reject it.  As with our atheist forum freinds.



gemcgrew said:


> ...because God did not move on him.  I truly wish he had.  I don't know why he didn't.  But if that message is as powerful and hopeful as we all say it is, then this man, of any, would have responded...and he did not.



There is a lot of assumption in your "if...then" conclusion.  You leave out the individual's responsibility.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> That not only makes this man a failure but Christ also.



Jesus did his part.  No failure there.

I am sorry for the loss, and the situation.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Jesus did his part.  No failure there.



Then he didn't do enough. He didn't finish anything. If one soul he died for is in he11, he failed.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Then he didn't do enough. He didn't finish anything. If one soul he died for is in he11, he failed.



How?  There is an old cliche' "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."  

If I tried to give you a gift, perhaps a new rabbit hunting shotgun, and I went to the store, bought the gun and ammo, drove it to your house and handed it to you it would not be my fault if you were unwilling to reach out and accept it.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Or, the other party was unwilling to listen. It doesn't have to have a single thing to do with anybody's "sales abilities." People are free to accept or reject. It seems in this case the individual rejected.



Then the gospel message isn't very powerful....now is it?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Then the gospel message isn't very powerful....now is it?



That seems to be your conclusion.  Mine would be more like "people are pretty stubborn.....aren't they."


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Why would they need an excuse if it is God who determines the winners and losers?


Their excuses, accusations and pleadings accomplish nothing. Their sincerity, sacrifices and works are of no effect. Even their acknowledging him as Lord is in vain.
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(Matthew 7:22,23) 


JB0704 said:


> Why is Christ necessary if everything is planned?


Part of the plan.


JB0704 said:


> If God only calls who he will, such could be done without the sacrifice.


Not part of the plan.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Then he didn't do enough. He didn't finish anything. If one soul he died for is in he11, he failed.



No.That one soul failed.Since that soul was never born, God never knew them. Sorry about the troubles you are facing, but if I'm right, this man could have found grace sometime in his life,who are we to judge?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Their excuses, accusations and pleadings accomplish nothing. Their sincerity, sacrifices and works are of no effect. Even their acknowledging him as Lord is in vain.



Then why is Romans 1:20 even in the Bible?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> How?  There is an old cliche' "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink."


Bingo!  Why would he drink when not thirsty? The Holy Spirit provides the thirst that draws us to the well of living waters.



JB0704 said:


> If I tried to give you a gift, perhaps a new rabbit hunting shotgun, and I went to the store, bought the gun and ammo, drove it to your house and handed it to you it would not be my fault if you were unwilling to reach out and accept it.


I would reach out if I needed or desired it.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Bingo!  Why would he drink when not thirsty? The Holy Spirit provides the thirst that draws us to the well of living waters..



We could point / counter point for a long time on this one.....




gemcgrew said:


> I would reach out if I needed or desired it.



What if you didn't trust me?  That might also prohibit your acceptance.  Many, many variables, very few place the responsibility on me.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> That seems to be your conclusion.  Mine would be more like "people are pretty stubborn.....aren't they."



A man is losing his family.  His life is in ruins and everything around him is seemingly crumbling.  He is presented with the gospel and the hope that Jesus offers him and his response is that he kills himself.

Another man is living the good life, lots of money, great health and literally no problems in the world.  His kids are perfect, his wife is beautiful and loves him deeply and he doesn't have a care in the world.  He is presented with the gospel and falls on his knees in repentence.

Strictly from an earthly perspective; one has every reason to turn to God and one has none.


I suppose one is simply less stubborn than the other.


----------



## Ronnie T

Hey, let's just let the scriptures tell us why some people don't accept Christ.

Matt 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is the one on whom seed was sown beside the road. 20 The one on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, this is the man who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no firm root in himself, but is only temporary, and when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he falls away. 22 And the one on whom seed was sown among the thorns, this is the man who hears the word, and the worry of the world and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. 23 And the one on whom seed was sown on the good soil, this is the man who hears the word and understands it; who indeed bears fruit and brings forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, and some thirty.”


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> A man is losing his family.  His life is in ruins and everything around him is seemingly crumbling.  He is presented with the gospel and the hope that Jesus offers him and his response is that he kills himself.
> 
> Another man is living the good life, lots of money, great health and literally no problems in the world.  His kids are perfect, his wife is beautiful and loves him deeply and he doesn't have a care in the world.  He is presented with the gospel and falls on his knees in repentence.
> 
> Strictly from an earthly perspective; one has every reason to turn to God and one has none.
> 
> 
> I suppose one is simply less stubborn than the other.



If you could humor me for a minute, and try and step into the shoes of a non-believer.........forget that you are a PK, and assume that the gospel is something you never really "bought."  Would your circumstances change your belief?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> What if you didn't trust me?  That might also prohibit your acceptance.  Many, many variables, very few place the responsibility on me.



JB, the only way you are leaving my house with that shotgun is if you are unwilling to give it to me or unable to make me take it.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Originally Posted by JB0704
> If I tried to give you a gift, perhaps a new rabbit hunting shotgun, and I went to the store, bought the gun and ammo, drove it to your house and handed it to you it would not be my fault if you were unwilling to reach out and accept it.




Go do that 1000 times and come back and let us know how many times that offer is rejected.

Then go get $1,000,000 cash and try giving that away to random people 1000 times and let us know how many times that offer gets rejected.

Then, maybe, let's take a truckload of Babe Ruth rookie cards around to people.  Out of 1000, you might actually find some who would reject the offer because they don't understand the value of the gift.  But when you pull out a Beckett and show them the value of the gift....how many do you think would accept?

Compare those gifts to what is being offered by Christ.  How could someone who understood the value of it reject it?  It is just that it's not valuable enough or is it that their eyes have not been opened to the true value of what is being offered?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> JB, the only way you are leaving my house with that shotgun is if you are unwilling to give it to me or unable to make me take it.



We may have to leave it at that.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Compare those gifts to what is being offered by Christ.  How could someone who understood the value of it reject it?  It is just that it's not valuable enough or is it that their eyes have not been opened to the true value of what is being offered?



They don't understand, or believe, or accept the value, HF.  It is that simple.

Where we don't see eye to eye is that I believe it is man's fault for not "understanding value," and you believe it is God's fault.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Their excuses, accusations and pleadings accomplish nothing. Their sincerity, sacrifices and works are of no effect. Even their acknowledging him as Lord is in vain.
> "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."(Matthew 7:22,23)
> 
> Part of the plan.
> 
> Not part of the plan.



You omitted a vital portion of Matt 7.  The part that explains why many will be turned away, not because they had not been pre-saved, but because they were phoney's.

21 “ Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22  Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and great was its fall.”

*Words from Jesus Christ Himself.
It is not about pre-chosen, it's about the heart, honesty.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> If you could humor me for a minute, and try and step into the shoes of a non-believer.........forget that you are a PK, and assume that the gospel is something you never really "bought."  Would your circumstances change your belief?



I was a non-believer for over 30 years...I just didn't realize it my friend.

I never bought it.  I knew the Bible inside and out.  I knew all the answers backward and forward.  But I didn't buy it.  

I had been told the gospel message thousands of times, attended a Christian college....and I didn't buy it (even though everyone around me was convinced I did).

Not until God quite literally came after me did I buy it.  I still get emotional just thinking about it.  I've told parts of this story before.  He had enough of my crud and it was ugly.  

HE came after me.  Had he not done that, I would still be sitting in the same state I was....lost and pretending to not be.

Thank God that it wasn't up to me to go to him....I would not have.

I don't have to humor you to walk in the shoes of an un-believer.  I walked in them for over 3 decades.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Where we don't see eye to eye is that I believe it is man's fault for not "understanding value," and you believe it is God's fault.



We are not capable of seeing the value because of sin.  None of us.  We are dead because of sin.  That is our fault...not God's.

Like you said, they don't understand the value of the gift and they won't until someone opens their eyes to it.  I believe God does that work, not dead men.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I was a non-believer for over 30 years...I just didn't realize it my friend.
> 
> I never bought it.  I knew the Bible inside and out.  I knew all the answers backward and forward.  But I didn't buy it.
> 
> I had been told the gospel message thousands of times, attended a Christian college....and I didn't buy it (even though everyone around me was convinced I did).
> 
> Not until God quite literally came after me did I buy it.  I still get emotional just thinking about it.  I've told parts of this story before.  He had enough of my crud and it was ugly.
> 
> HE came after me.  Had he not done that, I would still be sitting in the same state I was....lost and pretending to not be.
> 
> Thank God that it wasn't up to me to go to him....I would not have.
> 
> I don't have to humor you to walk in the shoes of an un-believer.  I walked in them for over 3 decades.



I understand now why you believe the way you do.  It makes more sense. Thanks for sharing.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> That is our fault...not God's.
> .



Not if that sin and blindness is God's design, will, and choice.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> They don't understand



"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God"(Romans 3:11)
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Cor. 2:14)


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> Not if that sin and blindness is God's design, will, and choice.



We will not resolve the issue in the under 1000 post rule.  So, at this point, I'm just going to concede that the discussion will ultimately lead to nothing other than 1000 posts back and forth among people who disagree.

The Bible is very clear that God foreknew that some are predestined to be called, justified and glorified.

We disagree on what that means.  But I hope that we can agree that, predestination and foreknowledge (whatever they really mean) are biblical and true.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> We disagree on what that means.  But I hope that we can agree that, predestination and foreknowledge (whatever they really mean) are biblical and true.



If we are agreeing to disagree on the definition and application of those terms, then yes, I can agree they are Biblical terms.

I also agree that we will not settle this under 1000 posts.  But, it has been a while since a good discussion got kicked up over here.

Somebody should start a thread on drinking, gay, female preachers!


----------



## centerpin fan

Huntinfool said:


> cf, you and I agree on many things.  But could you re-think what you posted here for me?
> 
> Man's problem is death, not sin?  I know that's not what you said, but it's the implication of what you said in reference to the scripture you posted with it.
> 
> This is not about us.  I think that's the issue that many christians don't get.  Creation is not about man...it's about God.  We are here for one reason and that is to glorify God.
> 
> Our problem is sin....sickness.  Sin seperates the created from the creator...not death.  Death is the consequence of that, yes.  But death is not our problem unless we are focussed on us and not God.
> 
> Sin is man's problem and we are all covered with it.  If we are worried about dieing more than healing the sickness, it's no wonder there is so much disagreement on the issue.



I don’t think what we’re saying is that different.  Sin leads to death (Rom. 5:12.)  I’m not trying to downplay sin, but the problem of death goes back to Genesis and the fall.  We were made in God’s image.  Unlike the rest of creation, we had a spark of the Divine in us.  God intended for us to live forever with Him.  We were not supposed to die.  I will let St. Athanasius expound on this:


_"For God is good—or rather, of all goodness He is Fountainhead, and it is impossible for one who is good to be mean or grudging about anything. Grudging existence to none therefore, He made all things out of nothing through His own Word, our Lord Jesus Christ and of all these His earthly creatures He reserved especial mercy for the race of men. Upon them, therefore, upon men who, as animals, were essentially impermanent, He bestowed a grace which other creatures lacked—namely the impress of His own Image, a share in the reasonable being of the very Word Himself, so that, reflecting Him and themselves becoming reasonable and expressing the Mind of God even as He does, though in limited degree they might continue for ever in the blessed and only true life of the saints in paradise. But since the will of man could turn either way, God secured this grace that He had given by making it conditional from the first upon two things—namely, a law and a place. He set them in His own paradise, and laid upon them a single prohibition. If they guarded the grace and retained the loveliness of their original innocence, then the life of paradise should be theirs, without sorrow, pain or care, and after it the assurance of immortality in heaven. But if they went astray and became vile, throwing away their birthright of beauty, then they would come under the natural law of death and live no longer in paradise, but, dying outside of it, continue in death and in corruption...."_

_"For God had made man thus (that is, as an embodied spirit), and had willed that he should remain in incorruption. But men, having turned from the contemplation of God to evil of their own devising, had come inevitably under the law of death. Instead of remaining in the state in which God had created them, they were in process of becoming corrupted entirely, and death had them completely under its dominion...."

"This, then, was the plight of men. God had not only made them out of nothing, but had also graciously bestowed on them His own life by the grace of the Word. Then, turning from eternal things to things corruptible, by counsel of the devil, they had become the cause of their own corruption in death; for, as I said before, though they were by nature subject to corruption, the grace of their union with the Word made them capable of escaping from the natural law, provided that they retained the beauty of innocence with which they were created. That is to say, the presence of the Word with them shielded them even from natural corruption, as also Wisdom says: 'God created man for incorruption and as an image of His own eternity; but by envy of the devil death entered into the world.'When this happened, men began to die, and corruption ran riot among them and held sway over them to an even more than natural degree, because it was the penalty of which God had forewarned them for transgressing the commandment...."_

-- _On the Incarnation_, chapter 1


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Not if that sin and blindness is God's design, will, and choice.



As I have said before, God is sovereign, and by his sovereignty, makes man responsible. Man is responsible because God is sovereign.  

Where we disagree, is with the sovereignty of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> God intended for us to live forever with Him.


And we will.



centerpin fan said:


> We were not supposed to die.


I don't see it.


----------



## gtparts

gemcgrew said:


> Salvation is secured in eternity. Faith is the gift of God.
> 
> Impossible. My hope is not my faith in Christ, but the faith of Christ by which my salvation was accomplished.
> 
> The elect will respond through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. "All things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation.”(2 Cor. 5:18) In salvation, nothing is attributed to man, caused by man, or dependent upon man. “All things are of God.”



Interesting comments. According to your theology, the elect individual does nothing, absolutely nothing. It adopts the rigid attitude that the individual does not have to repent (God will do that for him), he does not have to confess with his mouth (God will do that for him), he does not need to love others as himself (God will handle that one, too), and he need not love the Lord with all his heart, mind, and soul (his election exempts him from doing anything, as unnecessary, to receive salvation). 

If, after regeneration, and according to you, we have no part in salvation, why would God require us to do those things above? Why would Scripture tells us to do these things if God has already determined to do them for and through us? Are we not responsible in some measure for repenting or confession? Is this not the appropriate response to being called? 

Please understand, I would wholeheartedly agree that God makes it possible for us to respond in this way, but I also recognize that some reject that calling, perhaps several times, before finally turning to God. Is such a person non-elect and then elect? Would an elect person, deliberately flee from the very heart of God, even if for only a time?


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> I don't see it.



Ya don't eat the fruit of the bad tree, ya don't die.


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> We will not resolve the issue in the under 1000 post rule.  So, at this point, I'm just going to concede that the discussion will ultimately lead to nothing other than 1000 posts back and forth among people who disagree.



I understand. I get messages on occasion that encourage me to continue. As I am sure we all do. Any time Truth is proclaimed, the Holy Spirit uses it and it will not return void.


----------



## centerpin fan

gtparts said:


> If, after regeneration, and according to you, we have no part in salvation, why would God require us to do those things above? Why would Scripture tells us to do these things if God has already determined to do them for and through us? Are we not responsible in some measure for repenting or confession? Is this not the appropriate response to being called?



Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> Ya don't eat the fruit of the bad tree, ya don't die.



But I see it as "But in the day thou eatest thereof" (not if, but when) "Thou shalt surely die".

It couldn't have been any other way. It made way for the coming of Christ.


----------



## gemcgrew

gtparts said:


> Interesting comments. According to your theology, the elect individual does nothing, absolutely nothing. It adopts the rigid attitude that the individual does not have to repent (God will do that for him), he does not have to confess with his mouth (God will do that for him), he does not need to love others as himself (God will handle that one, too), and he need not love the Lord with all his heart, mind, and soul (his election exempts him from doing anything, as unnecessary, to receive salvation).
> 
> If, after regeneration, and according to you, we have no part in salvation, why would God require us to do those things above? Why would Scripture tells us to do these things if God has already determined to do them for and through us? Are we not responsible in some measure for repenting or confession? Is this not the appropriate response to being called?
> 
> Please understand, I would wholeheartedly agree that God makes it possible for us to respond in this way, but I also recognize that some reject that calling, perhaps several times, before finally turning to God. Is such a person non-elect and then elect? Would an elect person, deliberately flee from the very heart of God, even if for only a time?



Let me answer it this way if you will. I was spiritually dead. I had no part in my new inward creation. I responded only after it. It was not by my creation and it is now Christ that constrains me. Anything good, as you mentioned above, resulting from it is nothing more or less than Christ and him alone. It is the evidence of my election and salvation.


----------



## centerpin fan

gemcgrew said:


> But I see it as "But in the day thou eatest thereof" (not if, but when) "Thou shalt surely die".
> 
> It couldn't have been any other way. It made way for the coming of Christ.



I disagree.  The "other way" makes perfect sense.  For a fuller explanation, read _On the Incarnation_.  C.S. Lewis did not call it "a masterpiece" for nothing.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God"(Romans 3:11)
> "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Cor. 2:14)




As in ALL cases, there is more to God's word than picking certain verses from a book, chapter, or letter.

You're chosen to post a verse from Romans 3:11.  That is a quote from the Old Law.  A little further into this chapter Paul finishes up by saying:

"28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since indeed God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."
******************************************

As far as 1Cor 2:14.

In Acts 2 that Spirit of discernment was first introduced into the world.
Those "believers" asked Peter what they needed to do.
He replied:  "repent and be baptized and you will receive the......... gift of the Holy Spirit.
At that moment God placed the "Spirit" into those new believers.

*Once, a man asked Phillip if he could be baptized.  Phillip replied:
"If you believe that Jesus is the Christ, you can be baptized."

1Cor 2:14 is referring to folks who have not believed and thereby have not received God's Spirit.

Belief.  Faith.  Then you get the Spirit.


----------



## barryl

*Predestination*

Predestination is a Bible term. The word occurs only two times in your Bible. Neither time is it applied, or referenced to a man getting saved. Eph. 1:1-5 is a Calvinists {sacred cow} as well as Romans 8:29. Neither time is it a reference to an unsaved man receiving Christ, or an unsaved man going to he11, or the time of conversion of a saved man, one of the elect, put in it's proper context, only AFTER Salvation. Nobody in the O.T. was regenerated, was granted repentance, was "chosen in Christ" . Nobody in the O.T. believed the N.T. gospel. Many in the O.T. were saved by a free act of free will obtained by obeying God.


----------



## Oak-flat Hunter

Eph....1-4


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> Nobody in the O.T. believed the N.T. gospel. Many in the O.T. were saved by a free act of free will obtained by obeying God.


----------



## Ronnie T

Romans 16:25  Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which has been kept secret for long ages past, 26 but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> Sorry about your loved one





Huntinfool said:


> With the others, I am sorry for your family's loss.





JB0704 said:


> I am sorry for the loss, and the situation.





centerpin fan said:


> Very sorry to hear.



Thanks all and I appreciate it. Sorry for the delayed response but I am juggling a good bit right now and either my connection or this forum is acting up.


----------



## jrmmh1215

Sorry Fellers but the scripture plainly reads that it is not pre-chosen but is up to each individual to make the choice for their selves. 

Luke 17:33   Whosoever shall SEEK to save his own life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. This tells me if you live your life in the world of sin and never come unto the Lord to ask to be forgiven and to be saved then you shall die and go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. However if when you feel the conviction of the lord fall on you and you heed the warning and fall on your knees with a broken heart and a contrast spirit and call on the lord he shall save your soul, for if you shall die out to the world then you have lost your life and by doing so you have preseved it..

Luke 19:10 For the son of man is come to SEEK and to SAVE that which was lost. Here the word plainly states that the Son of man has come back to save the lost, and if he knew who would be saved then why would he have to SEEK them out.  

Just my opinion but I will firmly stand on that which my faith is founded.


----------



## Ronnie T

jrmmh1215 said:


> Sorry Fellers but the scripture plainly reads that it is not pre-chosen but is up to each individual to make the choice for their selves.
> 
> Luke 17:33   Whosoever shall SEEK to save his own life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. This tells me if you live your life in the world of sin and never come unto the Lord to ask to be forgiven and to be saved then you shall die and go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. However if when you feel the conviction of the lord fall on you and you heed the warning and fall on your knees with a broken heart and a contrast spirit and call on the lord he shall save your soul, for if you shall die out to the world then you have lost your life and by doing so you have preseved it..
> 
> Luke 19:10 For the son of man is come to SEEK and to SAVE that which was lost. Here the word plainly states that the Son of man has come back to save the lost, and if he knew who would be saved then why would he have to SEEK them out.
> 
> Just my opinion but I will firmly stand on that which my faith is founded.



Yes.

Acts 10:“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35 but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36 The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37 you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39 We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 40  God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 41  not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 42 And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 43 Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins.”


----------



## gemcgrew

jrmmh1215 said:


> Luke 19:10 For the son of man is come to SEEK and to SAVE that which was lost. Here the word plainly states that the Son of man has come back to save the lost, and if he knew who would be saved then why would he have to SEEK them out.
> 
> Just my opinion but I will firmly stand on that which my faith is founded.



And while you are standing firm, do yourself a favor and study the above verse. Particularly the meaning of "to seek" and "was lost".


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, let's just let the scriptures tell us why some people don't accept Christ.


"Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end."(John 13:1)


----------



## hobbs27

Im thinking some of you might enjoy this...
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/LOSS.htm


----------



## Artfuldodger

Human action requirements from Jesus: pray, repent, believe, have faith, trust, confess me, preach & teach the Gospel, worship, forgive others, be humble, meek, help others, love others, & don't be deceived by man.
These are listed to show something must be done on our part not necessarily things that must be done for salvation. Some of these things must be done before you are saved. These things are easier to do with God's help but regardless they are things we must do. We don't have to do any of these things if we choose not to otherwise Jesus wouldn't have told us to do them.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> "Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end."(John 13:1)



Yes, Jesus had developed a very strong, personal attachment to His apostles that were assembled there in that upper room.
They were a rascally bunch at time.
Four verses later, He washes their feet.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Just curious, you faith guys. In every instance where the Bible says "saved", do you think it means eternally every time? Is it possible to be saved in this life by something?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Yes, Jesus had developed a very strong, personal attachment to His apostles that were assembled there in that upper room.
> They were a rascally bunch at time.
> Four verses later, He washes their feet.



Now, what do you do with Judas? "good were it for that man if he had never been born”. A sovereign God and Savior used this man to accomplish the redemption of the elect and to fulfill Scripture. Could this man have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry?


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Just curious, you faith guys.



Wouldn't that be all of us?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Now, what do you do with Judas? "good were it for that man if he had never been born”. A sovereign God and Savior used this man to accomplish the redemption of his elect and to fulfill Scripture.



There are instances where God can intervene to meet his desires or to answer our prayers. God can do whatever he wants to, like look the other way when we're about to mess up.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> There are instances where God can intervene to meet his desires or to answer our prayers. God can do whatever he wants to, like look the other way when we're about to mess up.



Is that your answer to this? 





gemcgrew said:


> Could this man have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry?


----------



## Ronnie T

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Just curious, you faith guys. In every instance where the Bible says "saved", do you think it means eternally every time? Is it possible to be saved in this life by something?



For me, a person is only saved by God.
The simpleist way to show that is go back to Acts 2.
After those people 'believed', 'repented', were 'baptized', and 'received the Holy Spirit'........ that chapter goes on to say that God was daily 'adding to the church/kingdom' all of those who were being saved.

Having faith in and of itself doesn't get me saved!
But God saved me in response to my hearing and believing.  He made it possible for me to hear.  From that point, my belief has to be from my heart.

It required my involvement(on a very small level) and God, in His all powerful grace and mercy, allowed me into His wonderful kingdom.

Corneilias and the man in the chariot taught by Phillip are examples.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Now, what do you do with Judas? "good were it for that man if he had never been born”. A sovereign God and Savior used this man to accomplish the redemption of the elect and to fulfill Scripture. Could this man have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry?



Yes.  He certainly could have.
I could only give my opinion concerning Judas, and these day an opinion won't even buy a cup of coffee anymore.
I don't know if Judas was always evil to the core, or if He was a foolish instrument in God's control.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Concerning Judas using his free will reminds me if Jesus had free will. I think to a certain point they both did but when God wants to intervene and take over free will goes out the window. I can eat right and exercise but God could intervene and take my life whenever. 
I'm not a full fledged Arminian or Calvinest and admit it can get quite confusing. 
I don't believe man saves himself. God does that. I believe anyone who has faith in Jesus can be saved by God.


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Center pin- I think you could follow the inference


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Center pin- I think you could follow the inference



No, I really couldn't.  I wasn't being flippant.  If you had said "you free will guys", I would have gotten it.  I didn't understand "you faith guys".


----------



## CollinsCraft77

Faith first guys then? Better?


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> No, I really couldn't.  I wasn't being flippant.  If you had said "you free will guys", I would have gotten it.  I didn't understand "you faith guys".



I had to think about it as well. I assumed he was asking those who attribute salvation to man's faith. Not those who attribute salvation to God's grace.


----------



## centerpin fan

CollinsCraft77 said:


> Faith first guys then? Better?



I still don't get it, but you can only be talking to "free will" guys like me.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I don't know if Judas was always evil to the core, or if He was a foolish instrument in God's control.


If you don't know that...


Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  He certainly could have.


How do you know this?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Could the pre-elect guys give their input on the purpose ot the Judgments mentioned in the bible.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Could the pre-elect guys give their input on the purpose ot the Judgments mentioned in the bible.



Art, if you are directing this to those of us who embrace election, can you narrow your question a bit? What judgments are you referring to?


----------



## irishredneck

If you read the scriptures stated in this thread in their context and in their original Greek language (Or Hebrew for the OT) you will understand what predestination in scripture really means. 

'Proorizo' is the Greek word and it means literally to determine before. Not once in scripture does this refer to an unbeliever, but it refers to people who are already saved by grace. This is a commonly used double assurance used by God to say that you are saved and you are going to Heaven. Its as simple as that. 

If God picks some people but doesn't pick others what would be the point in creating us? Would that make him a Just God? Of course not! He has given us the free will to give glory to him so when we meet our maker he can ask what we have done with the gift of Grace he freely gave us. If you aren't saved I highly doubt 'Well God you didn't pick me' would work. 

Another question I see is about the sovereignty of God. Again translate and look up what sovereign really means.. "Of highest rank" or "First in command". Wow thats pretty simple and interesting, your boss in work is sovereign over you but he doesn't control each turn of your wrench or keystroke on your computer. Does God sit and tell every single micro organism what to do? Or has He created the earth and everything in it to work in harmony? Does he splash every single rain drop exactly where He wants it? or has He created a sufficient weather system to have its reign over the earth?

Also Ive read a few things about your Soul going to Heaven... its pretty clear in the Bible that your Soul doesn't go to Heaven, its your Spirit. Your body goes in the grave when you die, your Soul is your personality that friends and family remember, its an earthly thing that dies.. but your Spirit is the part of you that lives forever.

Please read the bible in context and in correct translation, if you do you won't have any questions like this. Be blessed and remember ALL good things come from Him, theres NOTHING bad comes from God.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> If you don't know that...
> 
> How do you know this?



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
I don't know if Judas was always evil to the core, or if He was a foolish instrument in God's control. 

If you don't know that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronnie T  
Yes. He certainly could have. 

How do you know this? 


I'm sorry, I didn't say I "knew" it, I said it could have happened that way.

Prophecy was fulfilled through Judas.  I don't know if it was because of God's foreknowledge, or because God made Judas do that.  I do believe that in certain situations God did one or the other.

I believe Abraham believed, trusted, and was obedient (kinda) to God of his own free will and accord.

I believe Jonah reacted the way he did because he was reacting of his own free will and accord.

But I believe Christ purposely changed the mind of Peter in the case of Cornelias and all other Gentiles.
And I believe Christ "forced Himself" on Saul on that country road.  But I don't believe God forced Saul to persecute the church.  Saul was being Saul then.

I believe God used an evil nation for the purpose of overthrowing His own special people....  But I don't believe God forced, or lead, that special nation to turn away from Him.

God does what He wills.  He don't ask me.  He don't explain it to me.  He simply tells me to "move on" with my life of sacrifice for His name.


----------



## jmharris23

Y'all still going at it huh?


----------



## gemcgrew

jmharris23 said:


> Y'all still going at it huh?



In love.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> I'm sorry, I didn't say I "knew" it, I said it could have happened that way.


I asked "Could this man have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry?"

You answered "Yes. He certainly could have."

I took your answer to mean "Yes. He certainly could have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry."

I will ignore your original answer and the way it was presented.


----------



## gemcgrew

irishredneck said:


> Wow thats pretty simple and interesting, your boss in work is sovereign over you but he doesn't control each turn of your wrench or keystroke on your computer. Does God sit and tell every single micro organism what to do? Or has He created the earth and everything in it to work in harmony? Does he splash every single rain drop exactly where He wants it? or has He created a sufficient weather system to have its reign over the earth?



Friend, to compare the Creator of the universe, to a boss at work, is not helpful. 

"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."(Matthew 10:29,30)

"The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed." (1 Sam 2:6-10)

Seriously?


----------



## Ronnie T

jmharris23 said:


> Y'all still going at it huh?



Great progress has been made.

We'll be ready to publish very soon.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I asked "Could this man have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry?"
> 
> You answered "Yes. He certainly could have."
> 
> I took your answer to mean "Yes. He certainly could have exercised his free will and thrown everything awry."
> 
> I will ignore your original answer and the way it was presented.




Okay, I get it now.
You're asking if Judas could have simply remained faithful to Christ and not betrayed him????

I don't think so.  I think it's was a foregone conclusion what he was going to do.  He wasn't an honest man with dishonest motives.
He certainly was remorseful afterwards, but I don't know where his remorse was seeded.


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> Friend, to compare the Creator of the universe, to a boss at work, is not helpful.
> 
> "Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered."(Matthew 10:29,30)
> 
> "The LORD killeth, and maketh alive: he bringeth down to the grave, and bringeth up.
> The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.
> He raiseth up the poor out of the dust, and lifteth up the beggar from the dunghill, to set them among princes, and to make them inherit the throne of glory: for the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and he hath set the world upon them.
> He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
> The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; out of heaven shall he thunder upon them: the LORD shall judge the ends of the earth; and he shall give strength unto his king, and exalt the horn of his anointed." (1 Sam 2:6-10)
> 
> Seriously?



Huh?
The comparison was the word sovereign and the concept it applies to. 

Examine the scripture you throw around without understanding the context. Don't be ignorant. 
What the Greek translates to is not what the exactly English reads, he doesn't strike down birds, it means that nothing on earth happens without God allowing it. People get sick, it doesn't come from God but he allows it, people get raped and murdered again God allows it because it would go against the free will he's allowed us to have. Thank God we are living in a time of grace where Gods wrath was poured out on Jesus and he doesn't killeth, make poor or bring us down. 
Keep reading and you'll get to the NT....that's the best part.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, if you are directing this to those of us who embrace election, can you narrow your question a bit? What judgments are you referring to?


Yes it was directed to those who embrace election. I'm referring to any or all of the judgements by God & Jesus. It could be God judging you as an individual for something you did at any given point in time. What i'm leading up to is how could God judge someone for something beyond their control? This could be a believer or non-believer.
Particularly to be judged and punished to He!!. Why would punishment be necessary?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes it was directed to those who embrace election. I'm referring to any or all of the judgements by God & Jesus. It could be God judging you as an individual for something you did at any given point in time. What i'm leading up to is how could God judge someone for something beyond their control? This could be a believer or non-believer.


I see God's hand in everything. In my pain, sorrow, sickness and in his judgments. Nothing in time comes about but that which God brings to pass in his sovereign Providence. He rules everything, everywhere, at all times. Nothing moves in this universe outside of his decree."All things are of God" and "All things work together for good". I praise God for his judgments in my life. They are necessary and brought about by God.




Artfuldodger said:


> Particularly to be judged and punished to He!!. Why would punishment be necessary?


God Almighty, Creator of the universe, sovereign Ruler over all things, made it necessary.


----------



## gemcgrew

irishredneck said:


> Huh?
> The comparison was the word sovereign and the concept it applies to.
> 
> Examine the scripture you throw around without understanding the context. Don't be ignorant.
> What the Greek translates to is not what the exactly English reads, he doesn't strike down birds, it means that nothing on earth happens without God allowing it. People get sick, it doesn't come from God but he allows it, people get raped and murdered again God allows it because it would go against the free will he's allowed us to have. Thank God we are living in a time of grace where Gods wrath was poured out on Jesus and he doesn't killeth, make poor or bring us down.
> Keep reading and you'll get to the NT....that's the best part.



Again friend, I do not know this god you speak of. Do you attribute tsunamis, earthquakes and such to mother nature?


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> Again friend, I do not know this god you speak of. Do you attribute tsunamis, earthquakes and such to mother nature?



Are you saying God kills people?


----------



## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Could the pre-elect guys give their input on the purpose ot the Judgments mentioned in the bible.



Believers will be Judge according to Works,Judgement  is based on rewards or lack of rewards,
"There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, who walk according to the Spirit"

Those who rejected the assurance of the sacrifice of the blood of Messiah will also be Judge on works.
"For he will Judge every evil deed"


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Again friend, I do not know this god you speak of. Do you attribute tsunamis, earthquakes and such to mother nature?



The book of Job attributes certain natural disasters to satan.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> The book of Job attributes certain natural disasters to satan.



And what is Satan but a servant of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

irishredneck said:


> Are you saying God kills people?



Absolutely. And a day is coming, which will make all other instances of divine judgment throughout history, pale in comparison.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> Believers will be Judge according to Works,Judgement  is based on rewards or lack of rewards,
> "There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ, who walk according to the Spirit"
> 
> Those who rejected the assurance of the sacrifice of the blood of Messiah will also be Judge on works.
> "For he will Judge every evil deed"



But if I don't get to choose which path I take or which works I perform, such as helping a poor wayfaring stranger, how can God justly judge me? Why should someone be punished for killing an innocent victim if it was beyond their control? 
How can I be judged for not repenting if it's not my choice?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> And what is Satan but a servant of God.



Is your position that he, and his actions, represent God's will?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> And what is Satan but a servant of God.



I thought they were in cahoots together. The devil being God's enemy is like the WWF wrestlers being rivals yet arriving in the same entourage.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> And what is Satan but a servant of God.



REason I ask is that James 4:7-8 says:


> 7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded



How can a person do as instructed if they have no free will?  Why resist Satan if he is God's tool? 

......and, it seems God's response is directly related to man's actions


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Is your position that he, and his actions, represent God's will?



God is Lord of all and Satan serves his purpose. A couple examples would be "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."  (1 Corinthians 5:5) and "Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:20)


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> God is Lord of all and Satan serves his purpose. A couple examples would be "To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."  (1 Corinthians 5:5) and "Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme." (1 Timothy 1:20)



Then is there a contradiction when one is told to "flee satan" where satan is a tool of God's will?


----------



## Artfuldodger

It would appear God created the Devil (he fore knew what the devil would do)  so the two could play good cop, bad cop. Then he created a man (Adam) destined to fail so that he could be the hero and send in his son (Jesus) that he created (correction, not created), to rescue mankind. But before he sent Jesus, he destroyed all living creatures except Noah & his family. Then he created the whole Old Testament just to prove to man that he couldn't follow the rules he made. 
Even though God did all this he became angry with various men (Moses) and nations (Jews). He finally sent Jesus to die for some of  his  hand picked individuals even though Jesus said to preach to the world that any and ever one that believes will be saved.
The kicker is he will judge everyone for their actions, decisions, works, ways, beliefs, thoughts. He will even judge you on how you forgive others.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> How can a person do as instructed if they have no free will?  Why resist Satan if he is God's tool?
> 
> ......and, it seems God's response is directly related to man's actions



We are talking about believers here. I know God has Satan come against me to strengthen my faith and to humble me. Resisting is nothing more than having the armor of God. I find prayer especially effective.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Then is there a contradiction when one is told to "flee satan" where satan is a tool of God's will?



Can you give me an example where one is told to "flee satan"? Nothing is coming to mind for me.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> It would appear God created the Devil (he fore knew what the devil would do)  so the two could play good cop, bad cop. Then he created a man (Adam) destined to fail so that he could be the hero and send in his son (Jesus) that he created (correction, not created), to rescue mankind. But before he sent Jesus, he destroyed all living creatures except Noah & his family. Then he created the whole Old Testament just to prove to man that he couldn't follow the rules he made.
> Even though God did all this he became angry with various men (Moses) and nations (Jews). He finally sent Jesus to die for some of  his  hand picked individuals even though Jesus said to preach to the world that any and ever one that believes will be saved.
> The kicker is he will judge everyone for their actions, decisions, works, ways, beliefs, thoughts. He will even judge you on how you forgive others.



Sometimes I think you endeavor not to be taken seriously.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Can you give me an example where one is told to "flee satan"? Nothing is coming to mind for me.



Resist Satan and he will flee from you.  My bad.  Flee sexual immorality is in Corinthians, that is a sin, and one might consider such a temptation of the devil....I guess.  Either way, same principle.  How can we resist him, if our and his actions are God's will?  Wouldn't the resistance actually be God's resistance of himself?


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> Great progress has been made.
> 
> We'll be ready to publish very soon.



I'll be watching the shelves at the bookstore!


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Great progress has been made.
> 
> We'll be ready to publish very soon.



We need a snazzy, hip title that ties in the Reformation with the popular culture.  This will increase sales and guarantee a movie deal.  The perfect title would be:

_*John Calvin:  Vampire Hunter*_


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Resist Satan and he will flee from you.  My bad.  Flee sexual immorality is in Corinthians, that is a sin, and one might consider such a temptation of the devil....I guess.  Either way, same principle.  How can we resist him, if our and his actions are God's will?  Wouldn't the resistance actually be God's resistance of himself?



JB, there is something here that has to be established. Just how powerful is the Creator? Did he actually determine the end from the beginning? Including everything in between.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> JB, there is something here that has to be established. Just how powerful is the Creator? Did he actually determine the end from the beginning? Including everything in between.



I am answering for me here, but.....

Yes......no.

From what I can tell in the OT God changes his mind based on actions of man.  Prayer seems to have an altering effect on outcomes in the Bible, and many say contemporary circumstances as well.  There are verses such as "draw near to God and he will draw near to you" which indicate to me that God "reacts" to man's actions.

For me, that does not diminish his sovereignty, it is simply the way the "God / man" interaction seems to work.

So, why "yes" to the first?  Here is my very simplistic way of looking at it: we know there will be a Super Bowl at the end of the football season, we just don't know who the participants will be.

Again, I see this as in no way infringing on God's sovereignty, nor does it interfere with the concept of "elect" or predestination.  I see it as the Jews are the "elect" and Christians as a whole are those who were predestined.....I do not believe it is an individual election, but a group concept as in "those who will."


----------



## gemcgrew

centerpin fan said:


> We need a snazzy, hip title that ties in the Reformation with the popular culture.  This will increase sales and guarantee a movie deal.  The perfect title would be:
> 
> _*John Calvin:  Vampire Hunter*_



I will play.

*Man vs. God*
"Man triumphs yet again"


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> I do not believe it is an individual election, but a group concept as in "those who will."



Interesting. "Those who will" are individuals scattered throughout the world.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> I will play.
> 
> *Man vs. God*
> 'Man triumphs yet again"



Hmmm.

The Great Debate 

Only God knows how it will end, or does He?


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Interesting. "Those who will" are individuals scattered throughout the world.



Yes.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> I will play.
> 
> *Man vs. God*
> "Man triumphs yet again"



*Life Without Regrets - It's All God's Fault!*


----------



## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> It would appear God created the Devil (he fore knew what the devil would do)  so the two could play good cop, bad cop. Then he created a man (Adam) destined to fail so that he could be the hero and send in his son (Jesus) that he created (correction, not created), to rescue mankind. But before he sent Jesus, he destroyed all living creatures except Noah & his family. Then he created the whole Old Testament just to prove to man that he couldn't follow the rules he made.
> Even though God did all this he became angry with various men (Moses) and nations (Jews). He finally sent Jesus to die for some of  his  hand picked individuals even though Jesus said to preach to the world that any and ever one that believes will be saved.
> The kicker is he will judge everyone for their actions, decisions, works, ways, beliefs, thoughts. He will even judge you on how you forgive others.



You forgot these verses ?



•The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
•I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV


----------



## Artfuldodger

Lowjack said:


> You forgot these verses ?
> 
> 
> 
> •The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
> •I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV[/QUOTE
> 
> The interpreters  might have got it wrong. Verses above might be used to mean a certain situation and not rape or tornadoes.
> http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> The interpreters  might have got it wrong. Verses above might be used to mean a certain situation and not rape or tornadoes.
> http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html



You can say "The interpreters  might have got it wrong" on every verse. Do you have anything confident to say at all? Do you believe anything to be so? Or do you play devil's advocate every time?


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> You can say "The interpreters  might have got it wrong" on every verse. Do you have anything confident to say at all? Do you believe anything to be so? Or do you play devil's advocate every time?


What do you want me to say, that you are right and every free will believer is wrong? This will be my last post on this thread. 
I have read all the verses you and the other Election folks have presented while wearing my "Election Goggles" and I can see it your way. After all God is sovereign. I can truly see your point of view. Others have said this same thing. Now when I take off my "Election Goggles" and put on my "Free will Goggles" my beliefs return to my Southern Baptist upbringing. I wish I did believe in election & predestiny. It would be a load off my mind to know I didn't have any control over being good or bad but I can't see a God that made every  minute detail of every event, picked his chosen many, made the Devil evil, made people destined to He11 without any chance of ever being saved, and makes me lust after women. 
Those are my BELIEFS. I BELIEVE man has choices. I don't believe  God made people evil. I don't think God wants people to sin. I do think God gets angry, upset, & disgusted with man for not repenting, helping, loving, giving, turning the other cheek, becoming meek, becoming Christlike, becoming humble, being honest, etc, etc.
I BELIEVE God wants every man believer or nonbeliever to do these things. I BELIEVE it is way easier to do these things with the help of the Holy Spirit (GOD) in your life.
I Believe man is born bad(sinner) and has to become good. I DO NOT BELIEVE man is born so bad, stupid, evil, dead, and blind that he can't learn to act right, live right, accept Jesus, try to live without sinning, and become a meek & humble person. And become a person who chooses on his own accord to help others in need. I BELIEVE a Christian who doesn't help others will have a hard time getting into Heaven. I believe in Grace & works. God's Grace our CHOSEN works. I believe if I get drunk right this minute and drive down the road and kill someone it was my fault, not God's. If I get mad and hit my wife, it is my fault and not God's. 
My whole "meaning of life" is based on my belief in free will. Life would seem meaningless to me if I didn't have any choices. I wouldn't know if thoughts were mine or God's. I wouldn't know what Jesus was talking about when he told us to Believe. Sure there are verses where God controls things as he sees fit and it is very confusing to me. I don't have all the answers and neither do you. 
Some believers think their interpretation of the Bible is right and everyone else's is wrong.
I try to see both sides. Nothing is black or white. Not everything is controlled by God nor is everything up to us. God has the final answer. God can do anything he chooses or everything he chooses. God could destroy the Earth tonight. God could change his mind. God can get angry. God can deliver love or wrath. We are made in the image of God therefore we have traits of God, not the other way around.
These are just some of my BELIEFS and as I read the Bible they change. Huntinfool being raised a free will believer has changed his beliefs to election although he doesn't believe as you that every minute detail of life is controlled by God. I'm sure he didn't do this overnight or lightly. I'm sure he had help from the Holy Ghost.
I am not CONFIDENT that i have it right. Only God knows who will be in Heaven. Only God is CONFIDENT enough to know when Jesus will return. Jesus doesn't even know that and he was a pretty confident individual.


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> Absolutely. And a day is coming, which will make all other instances of divine judgment throughout history, pale in comparison.



Yes the day of judgement is coming but no where in my bible under the new covenant does it speculate or even hint that God kills people. If you could interpret and in their proper context what verses make you think that I'll be happy to clear them up for you. 
For anyone to think that, they are completely disqualifying the blood of Jesus.


----------



## hobbs27

irishredneck said:


> Yes the day of judgement is coming but no where in my bible under the new covenant does it speculate or even hint that God kills people. If you could interpret and in their proper context what verses make you think that I'll be happy to clear them up for you.
> For anyone to think that, they are completely disqualifying the blood of Jesus.



Matthew 24 prophesies of the destruction of the temple and Israel.The Romans physically did the deed, but God had to allow it, and I think called on it. Also Acts chapter 5, Ananias and Sapphira...just coincidence?


----------



## gemcgrew

irishredneck said:


> Yes the day of judgement is coming but no where in my bible under the new covenant does it speculate or even hint that God kills people. If you could interpret and in their proper context what verses make you think that I'll be happy to clear them up for you.
> For anyone to think that, they are completely disqualifying the blood of Jesus.



In your first sentence you agreed with me. No need for clarification.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What do you want me to say, that you are right and every free will believer is wrong?



Absolutely not. Just what is it that you believe. You stated it in your post. I appreciate that.


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> In your first sentence you agreed with me. No need for clarification.



I agreed the day of judgement is coming meaning its not here yet, but until then we live in the grace period. Again, please state where God kills people like you said... I'm very curious.


----------



## gemcgrew

irishredneck said:


> I agreed the day of judgement is coming meaning its not here yet, but until then we live in the grace period. Again, please state where God kills people like you said... I'm very curious.


One example was already given to you.


hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 24 prophesies of the destruction of the temple and Israel.The Romans physically did the deed, but God had to allow it, and I think called on it. Also Acts chapter 5, Ananias and Sapphira...just coincidence?


If you don't want to address it, then consider Herod, "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." (Acts 12:23)


----------



## Lowjack

Artfuldodger said:


> Lowjack said:
> 
> 
> 
> You forgot these verses ?
> 
> 
> 
> •The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these. (Isaiah 45:7, NASB)
> •I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, NIV[/QUOTE
> 
> The interpreters  might have got it wrong. Verses above might be used to mean a certain situation and not rape or tornadoes.
> http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evil.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't need an interpreter I read it Straight from The Tenach Book Of Prophets" In Hebrew and that's what it says ,God is incharged of everything , he authored Life and what's going on minute by minute and second by second , nothing can happen good or Bad if he doesn't allow it.
Click to expand...


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> One example was already given to you.
> 
> If you don't want to address it, then consider Herod, "And immediately the angel of the Lord smote him, because he gave not God the glory: and he was eaten of worms, and gave up the ghost." (Acts 12:23)




Once again you have failed to read scripture in its context and gave true representation to what it really means. I encourage you to read a greek/hebrew translation, sometimes it means the opposite to what you think. This is another perfect example!

The 'angel OF the Lord' is an interesting phrase when translated, it doesn't say angel FROM the Lord. This is specifically written in this manner to differentiate between the WILL of God and the Will of.. in this case an 'angel' (I'll get to the angel part in a second)... So this scripture isn't written in the context that it was Gods will but the phrase 'of the Lord' is the same phrase used to describe us, we are OF the Lord and its used many times in scripture in Greek its an expressive title and does not denote ownership. 
So let me ask you this, can an Angel act in their own free will? Can an Angel act in a moment of passion just like Peter (this Greek context is identical to that used when Peter tried to remove the head of the high Priests servant to defend the Lords name in the swing of a sword) In fact its just like Peter acted in that moment of passion could an angel act in the same way? Surely Satan is an Angel and has free will... hummm Scripture remarkably points to this fact, that the Angel was acting in accordance with its own free will to defend the name of the Lord and not actually sent from God. Does God NEED and Angel to strike someone down? Of course not!

Now lets get onto the 'Angel' part. In the original Greek, Luke here wrote 'Angelos'. To obtain a true understanding of this word the scriptures need to be examined and you will understand their meaning in different contexts. 
Angelos simply means 'Messenger' in Greek this refers to a Pastor, Messenger or ordinary Christian Believer. This is the same word Luke uses to describe Jesus Disciples(Lk 9:52), Johns Disciples(Lk 7:24) and he used it to describe John the Baptist himself (Lk 7:27). 

So who killed Herod? Theres no mention of God killing or orchestrating a killing on Herod, far from it in fact. Could Peter have killed Herod? He was an ordinary Christian Believer and after all Herod tried to kill him and he could have acted in self defense or when Herod was strutting like a god Peter could have got offended and struck out (again). After this huge scandal,  Luke actually disguised Peters identity when re-telling this story as to not cause him further embarrassment. 


Could it have been the devil? I say this simply because Jesus said he’s always a suspect whenever death and destruction are involved (Jn 10:10). If it was the devil, then Luke, the author of Acts, missed the mark by saying it was an angel of the Lord. If Luke was ascribing to God something done by the devil, then he would be making a very Old Testamenty mistake (see Job). How was Luke to know if the Angel was sent from God or if it was the Devil himself? Ezekiel 28:11-19 tells us that Satan is an Angel and 'Perfect in Beauty', so that mistake could have been made. In olden times people used to attribute anything supernatural – good or bad – to God. If Satan did something bad, it was because God had allowed it to happen and therefore God was ultimately responsible. If Luke was thinking like this then he was making a huge mistake. But he wouldn’t be alone. To this day there are believers who claim that because God is 'sovereign' (as I said previously, in Greek this simply means 'Of highest Rank') everything that happens is His will. 

Jesus would strongly disagree.

A second way that Luke could’ve misread Herod’s death is by not fully understanding the significance of the cross. He may have been a little confused about what made the new covenant new. Perhaps he thought that God was still smiting people. If so, he wouldn’t be the only New Testament believer who was confused about the covenants. Ananias, Paul’s healer, still thought you could wash your sins away with water (Acts 22:16).

Ananias and sapphira is another classic example of Gods Grace all over, please read and translate the true meaning, let me know what you've learned from that story. The English language only goes so far and can throw different meanings to scripture. Although its not exactly clear who Killed Herod, it definitely wasn't God! 
If God punished Herod by killing him, then Christ’s atoning work on the cross was not perfect and you’re in serious trouble (as am I!).


----------



## gemcgrew

Nice try, but yet again, a feeble attempt by man to rob God of his glory.


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> Nice try, but yet again, a feeble attempt by man to rob God of his glory.



Please explain so I don't think you're a complete ignoramus.


----------



## gemcgrew

irishredneck said:


> Please explain so I don't think you're a complete ignoramus.



Friend, it truly does not impact me, for you to think me ignorant and an ignoramus. There is something established with me that was established with David as well. "so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David."


----------



## irishredneck

gemcgrew said:


> Friend, it truly does not impact me, for you to think me ignorant and an ignoramus. There is something established with me that was established with David as well. "so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David."




You're kinda creepy. Weird..


----------



## Huntinfool

> The English language only goes so far and can throw different meanings to scripture.



Boy....you got THAT right!

As evidenced here...



> The 'angel OF the Lord' is an interesting phrase when translated, it doesn't say angel FROM the Lord. This is specifically written in this manner to differentiate between the WILL of God and the Will of.. in this case an 'angel' (I'll get to the angel part in a second)... So this scripture isn't written in the context that it was Gods will but the phrase 'of the Lord' is the same phrase used to describe us, we are OF the Lord and its used many times in scripture in Greek its an expressive title and does not denote ownership.
> So let me ask you this, can an Angel act in their own free will? Can an Angel act in a moment of passion just like Peter (this Greek context is identical to that used when Peter tried to remove the head of the high Priests servant to defend the Lords name in the swing of a sword) In fact its just like Peter acted in that moment of passion could an angel act in the same way? Surely Satan is an Angel and has free will... hummm Scripture remarkably points to this fact, that the Angel was acting in accordance with its own free will to defend the name of the Lord and not actually sent from God. Does God NEED and Angel to strike someone down? Of course not!
> 
> Now lets get onto the 'Angel' part. In the original Greek, Luke here wrote 'Angelos'. To obtain a true understanding of this word the scriptures need to be examined and you will understand their meaning in different contexts.
> Angelos simply means 'Messenger' in Greek this refers to a Pastor, Messenger or ordinary Christian Believer. This is the same word Luke uses to describe Jesus Disciples(Lk 9:52), Johns Disciples(Lk 7:24) and he used it to describe John the Baptist himself (Lk 7:27).
> 
> So who killed Herod? Theres no mention of God killing or orchestrating a killing on Herod, far from it in fact. Could Peter have killed Herod? He was an ordinary Christian Believer and after all Herod tried to kill him and he could have acted in self defense or when Herod was strutting like a god Peter could have got offended and struck out (again). After this huge scandal, Luke actually disguised Peters identity when re-telling this story as to not cause him further embarrassment.
> 
> 
> Could it have been the devil? I say this simply because Jesus said he’s always a suspect whenever death and destruction are involved (Jn 10:10). If it was the devil, then Luke, the author of Acts, missed the mark by saying it was an angel of the Lord. If Luke was ascribing to God something done by the devil, then he would be making a very Old Testamenty mistake (see Job). How was Luke to know if the Angel was sent from God or if it was the Devil himself? Ezekiel 28:11-19 tells us that Satan is an Angel and 'Perfect in Beauty', so that mistake could have been made. In olden times people used to attribute anything supernatural – good or bad – to God. If Satan did something bad, it was because God had allowed it to happen and therefore God was ultimately responsible. If Luke was thinking like this then he was making a huge mistake. But he wouldn’t be alone. To this day there are believers who claim that because God is 'sovereign' (as I said previously, in Greek this simply means 'Of highest Rank') everything that happens is His will.
> 
> Jesus would strongly disagree.
> 
> A second way that Luke could’ve misread Herod’s death is by not fully understanding the significance of the cross. He may have been a little confused about what made the new covenant new. Perhaps he thought that God was still smiting people. If so, he wouldn’t be the only New Testament believer who was confused about the covenants. Ananias, Paul’s healer, still thought you could wash your sins away with water (Acts 22:16).
> 
> Ananias and sapphira is another classic example of Gods Grace all over, please read and translate the true meaning, let me know what you've learned from that story. The English language only goes so far and can throw different meanings to scripture. Although its not exactly clear who Killed Herod, it definitely wasn't God!
> If God punished Herod by killing him, then Christ’s atoning work on the cross was not perfect and you’re in serious trouble (as am I!).


----------



## Ronnie T

From forum rules document:

"It is the intent of the Forum to provide an atmosphere where every member, regardless of age, nationality, race, creed, religion, political persuasion, sex, or level of education, shall be treated with the respect due them. This concept will be enforced with vigor.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=350414


----------



## thedeacon

Beware of a men
who does not know
what he does not know.


----------



## StriperAddict

From "Thoughts from the Hill" 

The following is some incredible points on the subject. I am not articulate enough with this to embelish it, so here it is:



The key to a proper view of predestination, election, God’s foreknowledge, and etc. is to understand what the Scriptures teach regarding God’s purposes and decrees.   Because God’s purposes are _“eternal”_ (Ephesians 3:11; 2Timothy 1:9), He has always known them; they have always existed within His heart.
This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,</EM> (Ephesians 3:11 NAS)
_who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,_ (2 Timothy 1:9 NAS)​Because the same Greek word used for “_eternal_” in Ephesians 3:11 is used to describe the eternal King of the universe in 1Timothy 1:17, we can know that God’s purposes are eternal as well.  
_Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen._ (1Timothy 1:17 KJV)
This truth explains Paul’s use of the words, “_eternal purpose,_” in Ephesians 3:11.
According to Daniel 11:36b, the function of a _“decree”_ is to establish the certainty of the fulfillment of a purpose or plan.
Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.</EM> (Daniel 11:36 NAS)​Undoubtedly, if no _“decree”_ exists, the fulfillment of a purpose or plan is unattainable.  
God’s purposes are _“eternal”_ (Ephesians 3:11; 2Timothy 1:9) because they have always existed within His heart.  In addition, His decrees, which guarantee the certainty of the fulfillment of His purposes, are also _“eternal,”_ as confirmed by Jeremiah 5:22. 
_
‘Do you not fear Me?’ declares the LORD.’  Do you not tremble in My presence?  For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it.  Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; Though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.​_(Jeremiah 5:22 NAS)​Foreknow is from the Greek word _pro-ginosko_—_pro _meaning “previous” and _ginosko _meaning “knowledge.”  Thus, foreknow means “to know beforehand in the sense of foreseeing.”  God, from His elevated position above the earth (Isaiah 40:22), can view all events from eternity past through eternity future throughout His eternal existence.  In other words, He constantly views all events, regardless of when they transpire, without causing them.  Consequently, God’s foreknowledge is eternal, meaning that it has always existed.  Taking this input we can draw the following conclusions, realizing that the words elected and chosen are synonymous.  
If God’s decrees have always existed, they have never been future to Him.  To state it differently, God can’t foreknow (know beforehand) what has always existed.  After all, it is impossible to foreknow that which has no beginning.  Thus, God cannot foreknow an eternal decree.  This means that He could not have elected and predestined New Testament believers to salvation from eternity past by means of an eternal decree, for both Romans 8:29 and 1Peter 1:1-2 require God’s foreknowledge to precede their election and predestination.
_
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;​_(Romans 8:29)​_
Elect​according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,…​_(1Peter 1:2 KJV)​New Testament believers are elected (to office—to a position within the body of Christ) and predestined (to receive a new body—Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:23) once they exercise repentance and faith while depraved and are made new.  Thus, if you are a believer, you were elected (chosen) and predestined to blessing the moment you were placed in Christ—after repenting and believing while depraved.  This allows foreknowledge to precede your election and predestination as required by the Scriptures.  Consequently, it is impossible for you to have been elected and predestined to salvation from eternity past by means of an eternal decree.  This is displayed graphically as follows: 








Isn’t it exciting to think through what we believe?  Have a great day enjoying Jesus. 

---------------------------------

From "Thoughts from the Hill"


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> From forum rules document:
> 
> "It is the intent of the Forum to provide an atmosphere where every member, regardless of age, nationality, race, creed, religion, political persuasion, sex, or level of education, shall be treated with the respect due them. This concept will be enforced with vigor.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=350414




Thanks Ronnie.... For those that dont't understand the words above this means please refrain from calling those who don't believe as you do, ignorant, creepy, and/or weird.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> In other words, He constantly views all events, regardless of when they transpire, without causing them.


Without breaking down the entire article, please consider this point, which is so blatantly unfounded.


----------



## rockman7

gemcgrew said:


> Friend, it truly does not impact me, for you to think me ignorant and an ignoramus. There is something established with me that was established with David as well. "so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David."



oy! i'm thinking "given the way you handle insults so well our mutter in laws may be SISTERS!"


----------



## gemcgrew

rockman7 said:


> oy! i'm thinking "given the way you handle insults so well our mutter in laws may be SISTERS!"



Perhaps!


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> Without breaking down the entire article, please consider this point, which is so blatantly unfounded.


 
How so?

_



"  it is impossible for you to have been elected and predestined to salvation from eternity past by means of an eternal decree  "

Click to expand...

_ 
Please review the entire article again.

Also... soon to be out in  "God’s Heart Commentary Four Part Series", the last of these will address this.


----------



## groundhawg

rjcruiser said:


> Yes.



Nope!


----------



## groundhawg

CollinsCraft77 said:


> The simple answer is yes. I mean you put down just a few examples where it says it. Why people argue or deny it kills me.
> 
> I'm sorry. It's just plain black and white for me. Simple



No is a simple answer also.

John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Black and white and I read everyone in the verse.


----------



## gemcgrew

groundhawg said:


> No is a simple answer also.
> 
> John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
> 
> Black and white and I read everyone in the verse.



Yes, but the everyone is limited to those who see and believe. Not everyone does. Why? 

"..and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, but the everyone is limited to those who see and believe.



Because you said so?????

This stuff is interesting when we start changing the definition of "everyone" to be not inclusive of all people.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Because you said so?????


No, the context of the verse limits it.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> In other words, He constantly views all events, regardless of when they transpire, _without causing them_.





gemcgrew said:


> Without breaking down the entire article, please consider this point, which is so blatantly unfounded.





StriperAddict said:


> How so?



Well, he is stating that God does not cause any events. Do you realize just how much scripture we would have to disregard in order to make any sense of that? The very first verse of scripture negates his statement.


----------



## Ronnie T

groundhawg said:


> No is a simple answer also.
> 
> John 6:39b "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day."
> 
> Black and white and I read everyone in the verse.





gemcgrew said:


> Yes, but the everyone is limited to those who see and believe. Not everyone does. Why?
> 
> "..and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." (Acts 13:48)




But, as in all cases, looking at the rest of the chapter makes it clear to me that verse 48 isn't actually speaking of a person being pre-saved.

Up near the beginning of the chapter Paul spoke of the danger of hearing, yet refusing, Jesus Christ.  I take that to mean that a person can refuse Christ as their Savior.

Acts 13
"40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’”

*"Take heed, so that you refuse to believe what is being made available and described to you."


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> But, as in all cases, looking at the rest of the chapter makes it clear to me that verse 48 isn't actually speaking of a person being pre-saved.
> 
> Up near the beginning of the chapter Paul spoke of the danger of hearing, yet refusing, Jesus Christ.  I take that to mean that a person can refuse Christ as their Savior.
> 
> "40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
> 41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
> For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
> A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’”
> 
> *"Take heed, so that you refuse to believe what is being made available and described to you."



John 6
35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice in verse 39 it says "hath given". That would be past tense.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> But, as in all cases, looking at the rest of the chapter makes it clear to me that verse 48 isn't actually speaking of a person being pre-saved.
> 
> Up near the beginning of the chapter Paul spoke of the danger of hearing, yet refusing, Jesus Christ.  I take that to mean that a person can refuse Christ as their Savior.
> 
> Acts 13
> "40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
> 41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
> For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
> A work which you will never believe, though someone should describe it to you.’”
> 
> *"Take heed, so that you refuse to believe what is being made available and described to you."





gemcgrew said:


> John 6
> 35. And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
> 36. But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
> 37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
> 38. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
> 39. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
> 40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
> 41. The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
> 42. And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
> 43. Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
> 44. No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
> 
> Notice in verse 39 it says "hath given". That would be past tense.



Hey, you did the ol scripture switch-a-roo on me.
I was making reference to a scripture you had previously commented on, and now you've left that scripture for another one.
Could we just talk about Acts 13?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Hey, you did the ol scripture switch-a-roo on me.
> I was making reference to a scripture you had previously commented on, and now you've left that scripture for another one.
> Could we just talk about Acts 13?





My Acts scripture was to make a point with groundhawg and JB. I did not need to leave John to stay on topic.

(Acts 13:48) "And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were _ordained_ to eternal life believed."

tassó: to draw up in order, arrange
Original Word: Ï„Î¬ÏƒÏƒÏ‰
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: tassó
Phonetic Spelling: (tas'-so)
Short Definition: I assign, arrange
Definition: (a) I assign, arrange, (b) I determine; mid: I appoint.


----------



## hummerpoo

StriperAddict said:


> From "Thoughts from the Hill"
> 
> The following is some incredible points on the subject. I am not articulate enough with this to embelish it, so here it is:
> 
> 
> 
> The key to a proper view of predestination, election, God’s foreknowledge, and etc. is to understand what the Scriptures teach regarding God’s purposes and decrees.   Because God’s purposes are _“eternal”_ (Ephesians 3:11; 2Timothy 1:9), He has always known them; they have always existed within His heart.
> This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord,</EM> (Ephesians 3:11 NAS)
> _who has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,_ (2 Timothy 1:9 NAS)​Because the same Greek word used for “_eternal_” in Ephesians 3:11 is used to describe the eternal King of the universe in 1Timothy 1:17, we can know that God’s purposes are eternal as well.
> _Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen._ (1Timothy 1:17 KJV)
> This truth explains Paul’s use of the words, “_eternal purpose,_” in Ephesians 3:11.
> According to Daniel 11:36b, the function of a _“decree”_ is to establish the certainty of the fulfillment of a purpose or plan.
> Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done.</EM> (Daniel 11:36 NAS)​Undoubtedly, if no _“decree”_ exists, the fulfillment of a purpose or plan is unattainable.
> God’s purposes are _“eternal”_ (Ephesians 3:11; 2Timothy 1:9) because they have always existed within His heart.  In addition, His decrees, which guarantee the certainty of the fulfillment of His purposes, are also _“eternal,”_ as confirmed by Jeremiah 5:22.
> _
> ‘Do you not fear Me?’ declares the LORD.’  Do you not tremble in My presence?  For I have placed the sand as a boundary for the sea, An eternal decree, so it cannot cross over it.  Though the waves toss, yet they cannot prevail; Though they roar, yet they cannot cross over it.​_(Jeremiah 5:22 NAS)​Foreknow is from the Greek word _pro-ginosko_—_pro _meaning “previous” and _ginosko _meaning “knowledge.”  Thus, foreknow means “to know beforehand in the sense of foreseeing.”  God, from His elevated position above the earth (Isaiah 40:22), can view all events from eternity past through eternity future throughout His eternal existence.  In other words, He constantly views all events, regardless of when they transpire, without causing them.  Consequently, God’s foreknowledge is eternal, meaning that it has always existed.  Taking this input we can draw the following conclusions, realizing that the words elected and chosen are synonymous.
> If God’s decrees have always existed, they have never been future to Him.  To state it differently, God can’t foreknow (know beforehand) what has always existed.  After all, it is impossible to foreknow that which has no beginning.  Thus, God cannot foreknow an eternal decree.  This means that He could not have elected and predestined New Testament believers to salvation from eternity past by means of an eternal decree, for both Romans 8:29 and 1Peter 1:1-2 require God’s foreknowledge to precede their election and predestination.
> _
> For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren;​_(Romans 8:29)​_
> Elect​according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,…​_(1Peter 1:2 KJV)​New Testament believers are elected (to office—to a position within the body of Christ) and predestined (to receive a new body—Ephesians 1:5; Romans 8:23) once they exercise repentance and faith while depraved and are made new.  Thus, if you are a believer, you were elected (chosen) and predestined to blessing the moment you were placed in Christ—after repenting and believing while depraved.  This allows foreknowledge to precede your election and predestination as required by the Scriptures.  Consequently, it is impossible for you to have been elected and predestined to salvation from eternity past by means of an eternal decree.  This is displayed graphically as follows:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Isn’t it exciting to think through what we believe?  Have a great day enjoying Jesus.
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> From "Thoughts from the Hill"



Sounds like deism to me.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Sounds like deism to me.


Yea, I didn't get much out of that one for sure.


----------



## Ronnie T

Acts 13
"40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
*41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
     For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
     A work which you will never believe, though someone should   
     describe it to you.’”*
************
************
Acts 13:48 "48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

*Do you believe these verse from 13 are in conflict?


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Acts 13
> "40 Therefore take heed, so that the thing spoken of in the Prophets may not come upon you:
> *41 ‘Behold, you scoffers, and marvel, and perish;
> For I am accomplishing a work in your days,
> A work which you will never believe, though someone should
> describe it to you.’”*
> ************
> ************
> Acts 13:48 "48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
> 
> *Do you believe these verse from 13 are in conflict?



I see no conflict here. I read verse 40 as a warning to unbelief and verse 41 as judgement.


----------



## Ronnie T

I believe Acts 13 records God's chosen (ordain) nation of Israel is now filled with people who will refuse to believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah.  And they will lose salvation because of that belief.

I also believe Paul was then lead by the Spirit to speak to the Gentiles on that day.  Letting them know that God was now going to make the blood of Christ available to all of them who believed.
And of all those Gentiles there on that day, those who believe were given eternal life, just as was happening for the Jews who would believe in Jesus.

Chapter 13, as a whole, speaks of those who believe, whether Jew or Gentile.  It is the believer in Christ that will be saved.  Not necessarily the chosen(ordained) of Israel.

That's what 13 teaches me.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Chapter 13, as a whole, speaks of those who believe, whether Jew or Gentile.  It is the believer in Christ that will be saved.  Not necessarily the chosen(ordained) of Israel.


The physical nation of Israel was typical. Chosen by God to be typical of his Church. The physical seed of Abraham was typical of his spiritual seed scattered among the nations, who are the children of Abraham.

"Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Romans 9:6-8)

"And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29)


----------



## StriperAddict

hummerpoo said:


> Sounds like deism to me.


 
No, it sounds like understanding the very nature of our Lord to whom we would do well not to impute iniquity upon.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> No, it sounds like understanding the very nature of our Lord to whom we would do well not to impute iniquity upon.



Would you please elaborate on your inference?

You did not write this article and do not need to defend it. For me, the author proposed a "does nothing" god. I rejected it and moved on.


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> Would you please elaborate on your inference?
> 
> You did not write this article and do not need to defend it. For me, the author proposed a "does nothing" god. I rejected it and moved on.


 
His "eternal decree" is something not "set in time" as we know it. Consider:


> If God’s decrees have always existed, they have never been future to Him. To state it differently, God can’t foreknow (know beforehand) what has always existed. After all, it is impossible to foreknow that which has no beginning. Thus, God cannot foreknow an eternal decree. This means that He could not have elected and predestined New Testament believers to salvation from eternity past by means of an eternal decree, for both Romans 8:29 and 1Peter 1:1-2 require God’s foreknowledge to precede their election and predestination.


I'm not suggesting I grasp the entire meaning with my finite thinking, for we do not see either time nor eternity from God's perspective.  But if the _decree of God_ (who has no beginning and no end) comes outside of the limits of time, then the result is that God would be unjust (an impossibility) to stamp a believer with salvation from a "past", since a foreknowledge is impossible from something (His decree's) having no beginning nor end.

(The beauty of such truth is that, because we, in Christ, are eternal beings by way of redemption, birthright and the cross, we have a sure and lasting foundation and stronghold in eternal life.)


However, if His "eternal decree(s)" mean "nothing" to you, I think I'll move on also.


----------



## Jeffriesw

rjcruiser said:


> Yes.





CollinsCraft77 said:


> The simple answer is yes. I mean you put down just a few examples where it says it. Why people argue or deny it kills me.
> 
> I'm sorry. It's just plain black and white for me. Simple


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> His "eternal decree" is something not "set in time" as we know it. Consider:
> 
> I'm not suggesting I grasp the entire meaning with my finite thinking, for we do not see either time nor eternity from God's perspective.  But if the _decree of God_ (who has no beginning and no end) comes outside of the limits of time, then the result is that God would be unjust (an impossibility) to stamp a believer with salvation from a "past", since a foreknowledge is impossible from something (His decree's) having no beginning nor end.



I understand his argument, but it is flawed. Election is an eternal decree. The election of individuals for salvation is not based on God's "foreknowledge" of man's choices or actions.


----------



## christianhunter

Wow...I haven't missed a thing...


----------



## Ronnie T

christianhunter said:


> Wow...I haven't missed a thing...



Oh yes you have.
I haven't seen a comment from you in about 25 years.
I figgered you wuz in jail or somethin.   

Bless you brother.
I've wondered about you and your family.


----------



## gemcgrew

The message of God's salvation is offensive to the religious world. Christ said "I lay down my life for the sheep", and then told the religious folks "ye are not of my sheep".


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> The message of God's salvation is offensive to the religious world. Christ said "I lay down my life for the sheep", and then told the religious folks "ye are not of my sheep".



So, are you a sheep or a religious person?
How will you ever be sure?

The religious people of Jesus' day believed that they were the chosen, and everyone else was unrighteous!

Those 1st century righteous people were the one's who were truly full of themselves.


----------



## centerpin fan




----------



## stringmusic

centerpin fan said:


>





You can save the energizer bunny for page 15.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> So, are you a sheep or a religious person?
> How will you ever be sure?


The Lord revealed it to me, through the regenerating power of his Spirit. I didn't want it, didn't need it and wasn't looking for it. I was fine right where I was.



Ronnie T said:


> The religious people of Jesus' day believed that they were the chosen, and everyone else was unrighteous!
> 
> Those 1st century righteous people were the one's who were truly full of themselves.


Deception is no different today.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> The Lord revealed it to me, through the regenerating power of his Spirit. I didn't want it, didn't need it and wasn't looking for it. I was fine right where I was.
> 
> 
> Deception is no different today.



Yep.  It's something that every person should consider from time to time.


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## thedeacon

I am a Christian, I am religious and I don't have a problem
with the word. When applied in the right way every one
of us should be religious. 

Please note I said applied in the right way.

God Bless.


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## apoint

G-d knows your choice in advance so it is predestined.


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## mtnwoman

God chooses for no one to perish, thus we have Jesus Christ. There is an action that He requires on our part, to believe and repent. Has nothing to do with saving ourselves if we take that action...it's a requirement. Different than the OT, because of Christ.

I knew you before you were in the womb (all of us) and I called you to be a prophet....I am not a prophet...who God was telling that to was of the elect. I do believe God chose/elected people in the OT and NT to do His bidding...ie Moses, Jonah, Abraham, Peter, Paul and whether or not they wanted to, He made them. He does not pick and chose the followers though...we have the option. Jesus stands knocking at all of our hearts, trying to draw us nigh...we all will not surrender to that. And God knows already who those people will be. 

He chooses for none to perish, not just a select few. If we were saved and chosen even before birth, what did we need Jesus for?

I do believe there are elect/chosen , by God, people on this earth today and none  of us know who they are...except people like Billy Graham and others who obviously have a gift. He is a leader, like Abraham, I am not, I am a follower of Christ and he asks us to carry the gospel to all the earth. We all can't be leaders, ie Paul, Moses, etc. God did choose them.

I thank God everyday for my salvation, I had nothing to do with saving myself in anyway, that is impossible, I just made a choice to receive, signed, SEALED and delivered blessed assurance. 

Gems perhaps was chosen for a reason and only he knows that. None of us do. I know I had to complete the tasks set before me to come to salvation and that was to repent and believe.

If people don't seek God, why are there idols all over the world showing they seek something higher than themselves? and our job is to tell them who that God is.

I wasn't seeking our God, I was seeking something though, and Christ revealed Himself to me thru the gospel and I accepted His offer....which is required for me to do. Jesus probably knocked on my heart's door a million times before I heard the gospel and comprehended it....He didn't hand pick me, He knocks on everyone's heart....He stands knocking and whoever opens the door and lets Him in, He will come in a sup with them. He doesn't push the door down and pull you out..'Hey you're saved buddy, whether you like/want/need it or not'...at least not most of us followers.


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## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> So, are you a sheep or a religious person?
> How will you ever be sure?
> 
> The religious people of Jesus' day believed that they were the chosen, and everyone else was unrighteous!
> 
> Those 1st century righteous people were the one's who were truly full of themselves.



I is a sheep. My assigned duty is to preach/teach/spread the gospel.


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## mtnwoman

apoint said:


> G-d knows your choice in advance so it is predestined.



all knowing is omniscience 
chosen without your knowledge beforehand is predestined


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## Lowjack

Interesting thoughts, and Christian Hunter where have you being ? LOL


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## mtnwoman

JB0704 said:


> If God controls everything in the universe:
> 
> Why does God make free-willers argue with Calvinists?
> Why does God make evil people do evil things?
> Why does God make so many people argue about the Bible?
> Why does God make policians argue over everthing?
> Why does God create conflicting perspectives.....does he find glory in conflict?
> 
> If everything is predestined, then all of our sins, struggles, thoughts, actions, etc. are all part of the program.  And really, there is no use getting bothered by anything.......because God did it.  And, if we get mad at God for doing it, that would really just be God making us get mad at himself for what he did.
> 
> Why would anybody get mad at another person.  Why would the Church judge fellow Christians if all of their actions are controlled by God?  When the preacher cheats on his wife, perhaps we could pray and ask God to stop making the preacher cheat......and really, it would be God making us pray to him to stop something he did that he knew he would make us pray about in the first place.
> 
> Predestiny is a very dizzying position.....particularly when a Calvinist considers that he believes God made me write all of this stuff.



I agree.

First of all God didn't call me to be a prophet, He called someone but it wasn't me. He did however know me before I was in the womb.

If we don't have free will why do most of us continue in sin? Well I'll speak for myself...I continue in sin.


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