# Psalm 23



## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

If this is in the wrong place ,pls move to A<A<A



The Lord is my Shepherd; I shall not want.
He maketh me to lie down in green pastures:
He leadeth me beside the still waters.
He restoreth my soul:
He leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for His name' sake.


Sounds good doesn't it ? A peaceful existence . A restored soul and a righteous environment .
Fine Christian young man gets a ticket to Viet Nam. Short story we all know. Gets home ,goes on the street and finishes losing his mind. Atheist goes through the same experience and comes home unscathed and becomes an outstanding citizen.  So much for the first part .

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil: For thou art with me;
Thy rod and thy staff, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my head with oil; My cup runneth over.

God will protect and take care of you .
Except for the little kid born into an abusive family . Cry because you're hungry, take a beating . Cry because you fell and got hurt ,take a beating for being a sissy. How about the kid that is victimized by a pervert. Tells his folks and is called a liar . Brother Smith is  a fine upstanding member of the church . How about the neglected kid ? Locked in a closet for hours so his folks can go partying. 
Yeah buddy . Their cups are running over . All day ,every day.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the House of the Lord forever.

Perhaps a very short life. After being starved to death just to prove that God will provide. After being denied critical medical treatment because God will provide . Or maybe getting your head smashed into a wall because your dad was high as a kite. Or dieing from internal injuries after being raped at age 5 . Or being shaken to death because you cried from hunger .

Goodness and mercy ?????????????????

gt, you asked . 
I refuse to believe in a God who can make these kind of promises ,on top of everlasting life , and allow these kind of things to go on in the process of living life. And don't tell me about satan and the inherent evil of man . God is either all powerful or he is not . If he is all powerful and allows this he is sadistic at best .


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## WTM45 (Sep 29, 2010)

A real gut check.

As I have said before, if given the opportunity to meet a deity, ANY deity, I have a list of questions that will take some time to go through.

My final post in the spiritual forums.


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## Israel (Sep 29, 2010)

You guys are funny, you think God has to answer to you?
As for your questions, if you ask them now, he will answer, now.


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

Israel said:


> You guys are funny, you think God has to answer to you?
> As for your questions, if you ask them now, he will answer, now.





Great response Israel. God is the one making all the promises not me. I don't know that any one expects answers , just that he deliver on his promises . If he can't even keep the ones in a simple Psalm , why would one believe he would keep the one on eternal life.  Fool me once ,shame on you , fool me twice , shame on me .

I've been asking questions my whole life . So far I haven't seen or  heard his answers.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 29, 2010)

Well my issue on your OP is this. The only anwer's I can provide you are what I find in Scripture....therefore we are at an impasse I am afraid.


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

Odd that both sides of the problem originate in the same book .


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## dexrusjak (Sep 29, 2010)

But jm, surely sometimes you find things in scripture that just don't add up with what you witness in the world around you.  What do you do then?


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## jmharris23 (Sep 29, 2010)

earl said:


> Odd that both sides of the problem originate in the same book .



Yes it is...however I think I'm right and you are wrong


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> Yes it is...however I think I'm right and you are wrong





I will certainly leave you with your opinions then .


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## jmharris23 (Sep 29, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> But jm, surely sometimes you find things in scripture that just don't add up with what you witness in the world around you.  What do you do then?



Such as?


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## dexrusjak (Sep 29, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> Such as?



Such as earl's commentary in the OP.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 29, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Such as earl's commentary in the OP.



Well like I said to Earl anything I say is based on my interpretation of Scripture as God's true word as opposed to your interpretation of the Bible as a book of fairy tales written by deluded and simple minded men. 

Every debate must have some have some common ground to come to any kind of conclusion, and we have none. 

Therefore there is not much point in me spending an awful lot of time, tellign you why I don't think that Psalm 23 means what Earl seems to think it means.


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## dexrusjak (Sep 29, 2010)

jmharris23 said:


> Well like I said to Earl anything I say is based on my interpretation of Scripture as God's true word as opposed to your interpretation of the Bible as a book of fairy tales written by deluded and simple minded men.
> 
> Every debate must have some have some common ground to come to any kind of conclusion, and we have none.
> 
> Therefore there is not much point in me spending an awful lot of time, tellign you why I don't think that Psalm 23 means what Earl seems to think it means.



Understood.  Let me try this one out on you...

And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11: 9-13)

And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (John 14: 13)

When I was a Christian, I had a relative who out of nowhere developed a brain tumor.  At the time, she was a bright, energetic, beautiful, young lady.  I watched as over the course of a few months she suffered tremendous physical agony.  She lost her hair, lost over forty pounds, and eventually lost her life.  In the end, she was literally only a shell of her former self.  I honestly could barely recognize her the final time I saw her "alive".

During this ordeal, my relatives, her friends and co-workers, churches all over Georgia, and I prayed literally thousands of times for God to heal her.  We fasted, we cried, we bent knees at church alters, at her bedside, and in our homes.  We prayed in Jesus' name with the full belief that he would hear our prayers and heal my relative.  We believed this because he had promised in scripture that he would do anything we asked in his name. 

This is not a hypothetical situation.  This was real life.

How do you reconcile the reality of this event with the promises your god makes in the Bible?


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## jmharris23 (Sep 29, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Understood.  Let me try this one out on you...
> 
> And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11: 9-13)
> 
> ...



At the risk of being called a cop-out I am just going to go with I don't know. 

I've lost people I loved while praying they would not die. 
I have prayed for very sick people not to die and they didn't. 

I know for you this falls directly into the hands of the milk jug analogy that you posted a while back. 

For me I truly believe that God knows what's best. 

I am sure to you that is foolish. But to me it is great comfort.

I say this all the time and I'll continue saying it. 

One day we'll both have our chance to see who was right.


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## Madman (Sep 29, 2010)

King David, writing a psalm (song) to his creator, a song of praise and thanksgiving, even in light of everything that has happened in his life.


The Apostle Paul said:  “I am content in all things.”  Bold statement for a man who had been beaten, starved, and thrown in prison repeatedly.

The biggest mistakes we ever make in life are mathematical.  We miscalculate the brevity of life and the length of eternity.

Seems these two men understand it completely.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 29, 2010)

Madman said:


> King David, writing a psalm (song) to his creator, a song of praise and thanksgiving, even in light of everything that has happened in his life.
> 
> 
> The Apostle Paul said:  “I am content in all things.”  Bold statement for a man who had been beaten, starved, and thrown in prison repeatedly.
> ...



You're right.  The 22rd psalm are David's words.  Those words describe David's life of trusting in God just as David's sheep trust in him as their shepherd.
Don't try to make it more than it is.
They are the thoughts of a man who trust in God no matter what.


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## dexrusjak (Sep 29, 2010)

Madman said:


> King David, writing a psalm (song) to his creator, a song of praise and thanksgiving, even in light of everything that has happened in his life.
> 
> 
> The Apostle Paul said:  “I am content in all things.”  Bold statement for a man who had been beaten, starved, and thrown in prison repeatedly.
> ...



I don't think that's the point of this thread (earl, correct me if I'm wrong).  I think the point of the thread is that god makes some really big promises in the Bible that he doesn't follow through on.  The question remains.  Why does god promise one thing in scripture and then do (or not do) another in reality.  Is god a liar?


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> I don't think that's the point of this thread (earl, correct me if I'm wrong).  I think the point of the thread is that god makes some really big promises in the Bible that he doesn't follow through on.  The question remains.  Why does god promise one thing in scripture and then do (or not do) another in reality.  Is god a liar?




Honestly, Earl and Dex, You keep wanting someone to offer you a reason to believe that mumbo jumbo.  It's silliness.  You know it, I know it.   They keep telling you, and they are right, that you won't ever understand it until you shut off your brain and BELIEVE; like a child.  

By the way, the God of the Bible is a liar and the book is full of inconsistencies.  He was written very poorly as a character.  You want it to make sense?  Close your eyes, fold your arms across your chest and fall backwards....into stupidity.


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## Madman (Sep 29, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> I think the point of the thread is that god makes some really big promises in the Bible that he doesn't follow through on.



What are those promises?



I know of at least one that He kept.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## ambush80 (Sep 29, 2010)

Madman said:


> What are those promises?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh yeah?  Well I promise you that after you die you will turn into a lemon lime snow cone.  Just ask anyone who has died and they will tell you that it's true.


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> You're right.  The 22rd psalm are David's words.  Those words describe David's life of trusting in God just as David's sheep trust in him as their shepherd.
> Don't try to make it more than it is.
> They are the thoughts of a man who trust in God no matter what.





Yes ,I guess that was pretty silly of me to try to read something into the bible. Just take it as it is written . I don't suppose you want to tell me to do the same with Revelation ?

I guess you have to be a Christian to know what is true ,what is a parable , what is actual , and how to interpret it all .


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

Ronnie , try this one on ...

partial 

http://www.thercg.org/questions/p142.a.html

 He goes on to write, “He makes me to lie down in green pastures: he leads me beside the still waters.” Both the “green pastures” and “still waters” indicate a blessed abundance, further illustrating the benefits of a God-led life.

There are several sites that have analogies of the 23rd Psalm. You may be alone in your opinion that it is JUST a shepherds story .


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## rjcruiser (Sep 29, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> A real gut check.
> 
> As I have said before, if given the opportunity to meet a deity, ANY deity, I have a list of questions that will take some time to go through.
> 
> My final post in the spiritual forums.



Oh...come on WTM...you know you want to still post in here 

Happy trails.  We'll talk in the other forums then.



earl said:


> Odd that both sides of the problem originate in the same book .



So there you have it.  The Christian's basis for truth is the Bible.

Your basis of truth is your reason.

I think your basis is flawed...you think my basis is flawed.  Until one of us changes our basis, we will always be at an impass.  We will always disagree.  That is a fact that I think we can all agree on....and why I don't participate much in the debates with agnostics/athiests.  They go in circles...round n round.


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

A large basis of my truth is life's lessons. Some easy , some hard. 
 IMHO the Christian also go in circles . They just bounce from place to place depending on what they want  the bible to say . 
Disagreement is always acceptable as long as it's reasonable.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 29, 2010)

earl said:


> Yes ,I guess that was pretty silly of me to try to read something into the bible. Just take it as it is written . I don't suppose you want to tell me to do the same with Revelation ?
> 
> I guess you have to be a Christian to know what is true ,what is a parable , what is actual , and how to interpret it all .



Concerning The Revelation, it came from God's mind through the Holy Spirit,  and delivered to us in human words.  And I don't mind saying, it's a complicated book for me most of the time.  At least parts of it.

But psalm 23 are the words of David, a man.  A man who suffered a great deal at the hands of God.  God even took David's little baby from him at one point in his life.
But David obviously trusted God and depended upon God.
It might seem odd, even illogical, but it's what David felt and lived.


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## CAL (Sep 29, 2010)

Well I guess I have more or less seen it all now.Have heard all my life about people trying to self destruct.Have heard about people trying to break into jail.Never heard of people trying to break into he11 before.
John 14;verses 5-6
5;Thomas saith unto him,Lord we know not whither thou goest;and how can we know the way?
6;Jesus saith unto him,I am the way,the truth,and the life:no man cometh unto the farther,but by me.

Mark 3;verse 28-29
28;Verily I say unto you,All sins shall be forgiven unto sons of men,and blasphemies wherewithsoever they shall blasphene.
29;But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,but is in danger of enternal ****ation:


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## earl (Sep 29, 2010)

Ron , if he was all powerfull ,you would not have gone through that . If he kept the promises made in Psalm 23 through Davud , You would not have gone through that .


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## Ronnie T (Sep 29, 2010)

Ron, comment #26 is powerful.
I imagine it wasn't easy to hit the "Post" button.

But in it I see something....
You have come to terms with psalm 23,
and earl has not.

Ron Pasley, as a brother and believer, I love you.
I'm amazed at the power of God in your life.


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## gtparts (Sep 29, 2010)

I'm just a little mystified. As many times as I have heard and read the 23rd over the last 60 years, I never concluded that God had promised anything to me in those verses. For that matter, I don't see where God promised David anything. David is praising God for the mercy and blessing extended to him. By what reasoning would you lay claim to the things that God bestowed on David?

The second thing that throws me is the lack of understanding that, in a fallen world, bad things happen because sin was brought into God's creation by man and, true to our lineage, men are still repeating the first sin. There are consequences to sin. None of us are exempt from those consequences. If there is blame, it is rightfully ours. 

so, earl, it seems your main complaint against God is based upon bad things happening to good people. I have read in your own posts that you are a theist that rejects the Christian God. If that is so, how is that working for you? Has your "new god" done anything to alleviate suffering in the world? Are you a better person because of your god's influence on you? Have you grown closer to family and friends because of this new god; more compassionate, more giving, less self-centered as a result of that new deity? How do you worship this deity? 

The whole problem is you gave up on God because you have never sought Him with all your heart. You have relied on a wrong theology and understanding of who God is, what His very nature and character are, how He operates and why. No doubt you have trusted in the wisdom of others no closer to God than you were/are. You really need to pick up a good study Bible in an easily readable translation and dig in like your life depended on it. You need to supplement your study with C.S. Lewis. There is almost nothing that is overlooked in his search to support his atheism and he came to the truth he sought to disprove. He suffered personal loss and dove headlong into the issue of pain and suffering to find support for a heartless, even ruthless God, but found the unfathomable love of God.

You do those things, earl, and you will have your answers.

Hate God with every fiber of your being, but do this, and you will see as you have never seen before.


drj, much of what I have written for earl applies to you, also. Something that might be key for you is what the many dozens or hundreds of people who prayed for your relative decided as a result of her passing. Did they all turn from God? Any other than you? What of the young woman? Was she a Christian? You need to consider those answers because they are significant.

It is clear that at some time you have both been hurt and severely, but not by God. When you grieved, He felt your sorrow and grieved for your loss. But for reasons only known to God, He did not intervene. If He stepped in to alter the natural course of all disease, all accidents, all evil, it would take mere seconds for us to forget that the safe, secure, pain-free world in which we lived was all His provision. We will, this side of death, always find ways to rob God of His glory. It is the very nature of men to do so. So, we live in a world that God created perfect and we perverted. If you can wrap your mind around that truth, you may be able to see the provision God has made for our relief, not in this world, but the next.


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## ronpasley (Sep 29, 2010)

earl said:


> Ron , if he was all powerfull ,you would not have gone through that . If he kept the promises made in Psalm 23 through Davud , You would not have gone through that .




I think He knew what it would take in my life for my eyes to open and see how great He is and loving. I believe He  loves me so much that my suffering is nothing but a testimony of how great my heavenly Father is. I look back and see how much His son went through so I can be saved I thank God for that pain in my life I praise Him for it,  for if it was not for that then where would I be to day. I know God is real I have been in spirit with Him, He took a sorry low down sinner and gave me hope, peace, love, and joy, my life has not been the same since I finally set down at the Lords table and ate His word of life. 

Don't give up Earl, the words echo in my ear "blessed is the man who has not seen but believes" I have not seen but have felt His Holy Spirit what joy that passes all understanding. A understand as like Stephen being stone to death and looks up and saids I can see Jesus at the right hand of the Father and do not charge them with this sin and fell asleep. What a peace.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2010)

CAL said:


> Well I guess I have more or less seen it all now.Have heard all my life about people trying to self destruct.Have heard about people trying to break into jail.Never heard of people trying to break into he11 before.
> John 14;verses 5-6
> 5;Thomas saith unto him,Lord we know not whither thou goest;and how can we know the way?
> 6;Jesus saith unto him,I am the way,the truth,and the life:no man cometh unto the farther,but by me.
> ...



Who would want to go to He!!?  Sounds like a terrible place.  Thank God its not real.


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## Diogenes (Sep 30, 2010)

“My final post in the spiritual forums.”

Count me in WTM.  There is no virtue to be had in belonging to a community of the insane.  All we see here is the forward charge of the blind collective which is both the curse and the doom of all mankind, with each going forward because the other did, and with no more purpose or thought.  

This represents everything that is wrong, and we are well advised to leave fools to their folly.  The Christ of their imagining was a common man, I’m told, and if he had actually been a God he would have foreseen the wrongs that have been, and continue to be, committed in his name, and would never have left his father’s workshop.

Funny, huh, that the heroes of Faith tend to make martyrs, while never becoming one themselves?  Evil always turns a profit, eh?  Why else would it flourish and build churches to itself?  

They seek devils, never realizing that they have become what they seek.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2010)

earl said:


> If this is in the wrong place ,pls move to A<A<A
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The sins of the fathers ( you and me) will be visited on the sons.

Earl you see the sins and attribute them to God ( according to your definition) for his indifference. Yet, you see the injustice in all the victims?

My notice is that you see the God of christians as a rigid God of the law. You have wound yourself in a ball of yarns about Him.

From a christian perspective God is just and good, and all injustice is man's making. God is full of mercy and forgiveness and healing and restoration. This is not the God you describe. Rather the God you describe is a machine, or a fiction like the white hat, super hero's of comic books.

The reality you describe of the injustice of these victims, which is not unique to you, is because of the God of christians in you. However, what is in many christians in order to tackle these injustices, and turn lemoms into lemon aids, is NOT in you or is Lost in you and therefore your ball of yarns, and your pickled view of reality.

I worked with a lady once who was working my cash at a university bookstore. One morning she did not show up, she was late and I was not notified. Strange as it was not like her at all.

An hour of so later I found out why she was late. While she was suppose to be taking her coat off and picking up the cash float, she was picking up her dauther's head from the back of pick up truck.

Her dauther who was a school teacher had been driving to work following a flat bed with a backheo tractor in the back. The chains gave way and the bucket came into her front  pickup truck window and killed her instantly. The mon was driving to work behind her dauther and actually saw her dauther's smiling head minus the rest of her body in the back of her  dauther's pick up!!!!!!!!!

To this day the victim's mother is a christian as she was when the event happened. On the other hand, her dad's first reaction  and continued reaction was to deny God by saying that God could not possible exist and permit this to happen to his dauther. 

You are like the dad Earl. The God the mother knew was not the God the father knew. So it is with christians and athiests and you perhaps. But remember this you all know what injustice is, christians also, but then the question is who's repair works? Who's justice point us to know injustice.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Understood.  Let me try this one out on you...
> 
> And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11: 9-13)
> 
> ...



We are all appointed to die. Modern medicines although they can help with the relief of suffering, they tend also to make people linger, compare to a natural course, and cause YOU to suffer.  You prayed that she would live again in health so that you could go tru the ordeal all over again?
You bargained with God: This for that. You did according to the Bible you say and you did according to the Law. This for that, that for this. You never consulted God's will, because although you knew the Word, you did not know God. Your prayers were in vain from the get go. 

Your relative's death was your death, because her life, even in suffering, was unseen by you. You blame "God" which you never knew for killing You--because your prayers were that whatever was killing her should not kill you. Instead you could have prayed what had given life, would give it to all. But you don't see it and  never did.


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## pnome (Sep 30, 2010)

The problem of evil...


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## Israel (Sep 30, 2010)

You have no idea what evil is.
You have no idea of the lengths to which God has gone to deal with it.


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## earl (Sep 30, 2010)

Interesting responses. It seems it's my fault. God didn't make any promises . I didn't try hard enough to be a Christian. Sin's of the father . 
Always something . On the other hand look through at all the praise God is given . Through God all blessings flow.
So many contradicting things attributed to one diety.

gt , you ask how my belief's are treating me . Pretty good actually . No requirements to or from either one of us. My God does not give me tasks or commands that are impossible to do from get go. I don't expect him to make me into an eternal God. 
I don't praise him for a sunshiny day that he is responsible for and then say he is NOT responsible for the other end of the same spectrum when a hurricane kills thousands. 

Israel you are way wrong. I do indeed know evil. I also know good. And if your God is responsible for one , he has to be responsible for both.
Amazing how you claim God is responsible for all life but man is responsible for death. The din of lunacy increases.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2010)

pnome said:


> The problem of evil...



The problem is solved. The root of evil is in man. Epicurius is treading water and going nowhere--in a sauna. 

Q. Then whence cometh evil?
A. From Sin.

Q. Then whence cometh sin?
A. From man.

Q. Does God prevent evil?
A. Yes. God prevents evil thu salvation and onto rightiousness and by rightiouness onto justice.

What's not to get? A little wine in a hot sauna is a tired man's muse..eh Epi?
Curiosity and cleaverness are no substitues for purpose and wisdom.


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## dexrusjak (Sep 30, 2010)

gordon 2 said:


> The problem is solved. The root of evil is in man. Epicurius is treading water and going nowhere--in a sauna.
> 
> Q. Then whence cometh evil?
> A. From Sin.
> ...



Last night, I was watching the local news.  They did a story about a little girl (7 years old) who has been kidnapped.  The main suspect is a 35 year old gang-member who has already done time for rape and armed robbery.  They showed an image of the suspect, an image of the little girl, and an image of the man's vehicle (a red Ford Ranger).

This morning, when I stop at McDonald's to get breakfast, I notice a red Ford Ranger parked in the parking lot.  Inside, I see the man and little girl from last night's news broadcast.  Only, the little girl looks a little differnt because she is bruised, bloody, and crying.  In my vehicle with me, I have my handgun and my cell phone.  I consider pulling my gun on the man and calling the police, but I decide not to.  I simply shrug my shoulders and sip my coffee as I drive away.  I sure do hope that little girl makes it okay.

How is what I did different from god "allowing" evil?

If you think what I did (or didn't do) was evil, if you're mad at me and think I'm a terrible person, what's that say about how you view god?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Last night, I was watching the local news.  They did a story about a little girl (7 years old) who has been kidnapped.  The main suspect is a 35 year old gang-member who has already done time for rape and armed robbery.  They showed an image of the suspect, an image of the little girl, and an image of the man's vehicle (a red Ford Ranger).
> 
> This morning, when I stop at McDonald's to get breakfast, I notice a red Ford Ranger parked in the parking lot.  Inside, I see the man and little girl from last night's news broadcast.  Only, the little girl looks a little differnt because she is bruised, bloody, and crying.  In my vehicle with me, I have my handgun and my cell phone.  I consider pulling my gun on the man and calling the police, but I decide not to.  I simply shrug my shoulders and sip my coffee as I drive away.  I sure do hope that little girl makes it okay.
> 
> ...



A"How is what I did different from god "allowing" evil?"

You allow injustice, knowing full well what is right, but you don't what to spent court time, because you what a college fund for "your own" little girl. In your heart you know that God will now allow this, but you got to take care of # 1. Yourself and your property. So the difference is that you allow it and God does not.

B."
If you think what I did (or didn't do) was evil, if you're mad at me and think I'm a terrible person, what's that say about how you view god."

I think that your judgement is off, that you are lost, that you are sick by living in a society or culture that would  permit you to feel comfortable with your decision, because your judgement is overriding God's. Or you are simply a sociopath. 

What does that say how I view God? It makes me understand why the story of the Good Samaritan is recorded in scripture--so that I have a perspective on selfish, and sociopathic individuals and how to deal with them... and how not to go "mad" or insane over them...God says that anger must be slow...


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## dexrusjak (Sep 30, 2010)

gordon 2 said:


> A"How is what I did different from god "allowing" evil?"
> 
> You allow injustice, knowing full well what is right, but you don't what to spent court time, because you what a college fund for "your own" little girl. In your heart you know that God will now allow this, but you got to take care of # 1. Yourself and your property. So the difference is that you allow it and God does not.
> 
> ...



Clearly you don't understand the analogy I was attempting to make.  In the scenario, I am doing what god does everyday.  Watching evil take place while doing nothing to stop it.  So according to your honest response, you think god is a sociopath.  Got it.

By the way, you do understand that my scenario is hypothetical, right?


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## dexrusjak (Sep 30, 2010)

Oh yeah, add to the story that the little girl is my daughter.  That completes the analogy.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 30, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Clearly you don't understand the analogy I was attempting to make.  In the scenario, I am doing what god does everyday.  Watching evil take place while doing nothing to stop it.  So according to your honest response, you think god is a sociopath.  Got it.
> 
> By the way, you do understand that my scenario is hypothetical, right?



I understand very well where you are from. But you don't understand my perspective and that's OK. Peace bros.

I have always wondered what the Russian airmen think the reaction to their peace signs tru a Bear's window is to Canadian or US F18 pilots when they fly off our coasts and  their borders in their Bears? Somehow you remind me of them except that I'm making the peace sign. ( Do you get my analogy? No I bet.)LOL No need to reply. Peace.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2010)

There is no Captain at the helm.


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## SneekEE (Oct 2, 2010)

Ps 22 is what Christ experinced on the cross.Psalm 22
 1My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 
7All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 
 8He trusted on the LORD that he 
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture

ps 23 is what He experinced after the cross.
4Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

The valley of the shadow of death is satans valley.Death can even be considered one of his names.Abaddon is his Hebrew name  meaning “Destruction” or "Death".  “And they had as king over them the angelof the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon.” Revelation 9:11 


Heb. 2:14....that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning,... Heb. 2:14


Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

1 peter 3:18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 

 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 

and while there He is saying...Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.


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## earl (Oct 3, 2010)

But according to Ronnie T Psalms23 is just a shepherds story .


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## gtparts (Oct 3, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Last night, I was watching the local news.  They did a story about a little girl (7 years old) who has been kidnapped.  The main suspect is a 35 year old gang-member who has already done time for rape and armed robbery.  They showed an image of the suspect, an image of the little girl, and an image of the man's vehicle (a red Ford Ranger).
> 
> This morning, when I stop at McDonald's to get breakfast, I notice a red Ford Ranger parked in the parking lot.  Inside, I see the man and little girl from last night's news broadcast.  Only, the little girl looks a little differnt because she is bruised, bloody, and crying.  In my vehicle with me, I have my handgun and my cell phone.  I consider pulling my gun on the man and calling the police, but I decide not to.  I simply shrug my shoulders and sip my coffee as I drive away.  I sure do hope that little girl makes it okay.
> 
> ...



We humans all deserve far worse than we get in this life.

The difference is that God can make the end right for the little girl and the man in the Ranger and every individual involved. You have no clue where to start and even if you did, you couldn't begin to set all things right. 

You seem to want to hold yourself responsible for what happened to the little girl when you did noting to cause the situation, just as you want to hold God accountable. Your story reflects the reality that God didn't make the mess anymore than you did by observing the child and perp in the Ranger. 

The other point to be considered is that God knows exactly how your story will play out and He will have the final say. As the observer, you are ignorant of those things. Your actions could very well make things worse. But the bottom line is that a hypothetical is absolutely worthless,... a straw man that does not advance our knowledge of why God specifically allowed your relative to contract cancer and die. You simply do not trust God to bring good things out of a tragedy for which sinful man is responsible. 

The real problem is you trying to understand or explain the spiritual in human terms. One of the keys is that there is a spiritual condition far worse than being on the receiving end of rape, torture, slow and painful death, starvation, being burned alive, having your head sawed off, or suffering through terminal cancer. There is also a spiritual condition that is so glorious and exceedingly wonderful, that all suffering is as nothing in light of the joy to be gained through Christ. God is far more concerned about our character than our comfort, our souls than our bodies.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 3, 2010)

gtparts said:


> We humans all deserve far worse than we get in this life.



Why?


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

gtparts said:


> We humans all deserve far worse than we get in this life.
> 
> The difference is that God can make the end right for the little girl and the man in the Ranger and every individual involved. You have no clue where to start and even if you did, you couldn't begin to set all things right.
> 
> ...


]

"Delusion".


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## Pilgrim (Oct 4, 2010)

Earl, thanks SO much for your excellent questions!  I love it when people THINK!  (especially me... b/c it's so rare! )
I completely understand where you are coming from.  How can God be both all powerful and all loving - and the world stay as abusive and warped as it is?
It seems to me that you are having no problem putting your faith in your own faculties - reasoning/logic.  It's as if you are thinking that if there is ANY good being brought about in what we think is a horrible situation - that you would be able to detect that good - and then to decide if it was legitimate or not.  I hope you see that what is happening here is that you have great faith, but that your faith is being placed on yourself.  Do you really think you have the abilities to understand such vastness?
I absolutely love Old Testament stories.  One of my favorites is the story of Joseph.  No doubt, Joseph prayed to the Lord from the pit in which he was thrown by his brothers - yet God *seemed* absent.  No doubt, Joseph prayed for deliverance when he was in prison for years for a crime he did not commit - yet the answer was not quick, and God *seemed* like He was on vacation.  Was He on vacation?  Not at all.  B/c of God's seeming absence, Joseph was put into power in another land and was able to start a massive hunger-relief program that eventually would save thousands of people - including his own family.
Or how about Judah and Tamar in Genesis 39.  WOW!  This is an R-rated chapter if there ever was one!!  But guess who is born hundreds of years later because of this calamity??  The Savior of the world.
My point is this:  We have a perspective on Joseph that he didn't have.  But that perspective was written to give us hope - and to help us not to lean on our own understanding.  But to realize that God is weaving a story in your life.  He loves you, brother!  You are not far from the Kingdom!


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## earl (Oct 4, 2010)

To gt's post .
Sounds like an extraordinary excuse to sit idly by , doing nothing , because God will make it right .


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## fish hawk (Oct 4, 2010)

Here is my view of all this.I have made very few post in the Spiritual Help and Religion Discussions section,but I am a frequent reader.I dont like to argue about religion or God in any capacity,there's nothing wrong with healthy discussions but somewhere down the line Gods name always gets used in vain,by believers and non-believers alike and i dont like that.It always seems that its the same ones that are always asking for proof that God exist.These threads are nothing more than a trap trying to lure Christians into sin and comprising there testimony for Jesus Christ.To keep responding to these threads,bickering with them and letting them get you angry has done just this.......It's really like a sport to them....Its plain and simple and every Christian should know the answer,you will never know who God is until you ask him into your heart and receive the Holy Spirit.And the suffering part is simple If your a Non Believer then you dont even know God so whats the big deal... it is what it is. If your a believer then you go thru suffering because Jesus suffered and we have to share in that suffering with him. It also strengthens our Faith in God and builds our Testimony for Christ.Just because you pray for something in particular doesn't mean that God has to answer it in that way,he answers it in his way and that way i have found  is always best.I have seen God work miracles in my life countless times because I put my full trust in Him....Where in that verse does in say you will have a perfect life and never have any tribulation or suffering...To me it says God is always there for me and is my great comforter in all times...If you truly and sincerely want to know who God is you have to ask Him into your heart and believe then ask him to make himself more real to you and He will!!!


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## gtparts (Oct 4, 2010)

> Originally Posted by *gtparts*
> 
> 
> _We humans all deserve far worse than we get in this life._





dexrusjak said:


> Why?



Sin. Disobedience. But, then you already knew that, so why ask?


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## gtparts (Oct 4, 2010)

earl said:


> To gt's post .
> Sounds like an extraordinary excuse to sit idly by , doing nothing , because God will make it right .



For those who sit idly by, doing nothing, it is a great excuse. But then any excuse will do to justify sitting idle and doing nothing. One hardly needs a great one. 

Of course, I believe those who use excuses to do nothing, do not understand how God chooses to work in many situations. God is very intentional about His created beings being a part of relieving the pain, hunger, and diseases of this world. Making life better for others is a fundamental part of following Jesus. Can those who do not follow Jesus have a part in this?  You betcha!!  But the simple truth is that the vast majority of non-Christians only have interest in making their own lives better. Loving and caring for others outside of our own sense of community is certainly not exclusive to Christians, but it is far more evident and measurable in the Christian community.


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## earl (Oct 4, 2010)

''But the simple truth is that the vast majority of non-Christians only have interest in making their own lives better. Loving and caring for others outside of our own sense of community is certainly not exclusive to Christians, but it is far more evident and measurable in the Christian community.''

That is the biggest crock of illusion I have seen. How about some stats to back that one up. And go world wide. If you truly believe that ,delusions of grandeur are all I can think to say .

I really thought better of you .


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## supadave (Oct 4, 2010)

you prayed for healing for the woman and she was healed . when you dye and go to heaven  you are healed from all sickness and tears. you are just being selfish in wanting her to stay here on earth. God has a plan for everybody so take the wright path to seek it .


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 4, 2010)

i have people state questions like this all the time...
people will say god wouldnt send people to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- if he is all loving..oh yes he will, he would not want people who didnt believe and reject him all their life living with him. truth is god gives everyone a chance to spend eternity in heaven but most do not take it...the bible says everyone will stand before god and take an account of their life..and if you didnt believe your going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- weather you believe it or not. eternity is too long to be wrong. you have your beliefs as i have mine, i respect that.BUT if i had to flip a coin on if there was a heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- or not i wouldnt take the chance on not beleiving. you can hate me all you want and say im wrong and guess what if there is no heaven, nothing happens to me i just lived a good full life but if im right ill be spending eternity with god. I dont care what oprah or anyone says the bible says the only way to heaven is through jesus christ. America is not my country, im a resident of another city who's builder and creator is jesus christ.

peace.


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## Ridge Walker (Oct 4, 2010)

> if i had to flip a coin on if there was a heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- or not i wouldnt take the chance on not beleiving. you can hate me all you want and say im wrong and guess what if there is no heaven, nothing happens to me i just lived a good full life but if im right ill be spending eternity with god. I dont care what oprah or anyone says the bible says the only way to heaven is through jesus christ. America is not my country, im a resident of another city who's builder and creator is jesus christ.
> 
> peace.



Unless, of course, as has been pointed out a few times lately, you happened to choose the wrong religion to believe in. In that case you lose your bet.

RW


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 4, 2010)

There is only one god


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> There is only one god




OOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!! You better be right or else you're going to Samsara!!


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## Gabassmaster (Oct 4, 2010)

I'm right LOL


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## Ridge Walker (Oct 4, 2010)

900 million hindus can't be wrong!

RW


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## Pilgrim (Oct 4, 2010)

Now we are REALLY off the thread topic, but.................. I'll join in!  
Religion & Christianity = two very different things.

Religion = good advice (what YOU better do if you want to be accepted by God; only concerned with the present and future)

Christianity = good news (what has been done FOR you by another to make you right with God b/c you _couldn't and wouldn't_ have ever done it; VERY concerned with history b/c it allows me to live in the present without anxiety of where I stand with God, and it gives me hope in a new earth that is purified/redeemed where I will live forever).

BUT NOW, back to the topic at hand!  Earl, I'm interested in your thoughts on my previous post.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> I'm right LOL



You better reconsider because as a matter of fact,  They're right.


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## ambush80 (Oct 4, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Now we are REALLY off the thread topic, but.................. I'll join in!
> Religion & Christianity = two very different things.
> 
> Religion = good advice (what YOU better do if you want to be accepted by God; only concerned with the present and future)
> ...



Imagine you are someone who is unfamiliar with that concept.  Think about how silly it sounds.


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## gtparts (Oct 4, 2010)

earl said:


> ''But the simple truth is that the vast majority of non-Christians only have interest in making their own lives better. Loving and caring for others outside of our own sense of community is certainly not exclusive to Christians, but it is far more evident and measurable in the Christian community.''
> 
> That is the biggest crock of illusion I have seen. How about some stats to back that one up. And go world wide. If you truly believe that ,delusions of grandeur are all I can think to say .
> 
> I really thought better of you .



earl, tell you what, you name the non-Christian religious group you believe gives the largest sum (in U.S dollars, for comparison) to benefit those outside of  of their own faith community and a dollar figure and the source for that number and I'll do my best to come up with a figure for what Christians give to address the needs of non-Christians world-wide.

Real simple: A name of a non-Christian religion, a dollar amount and the source of your information.

Don't let down, I'm counting on you!


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## Pilgrim (Oct 4, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Imagine you are someone who is unfamiliar with that concept. Think about how silly it sounds.


 ambush80, help me understand your point here.  
This "concept" was unfamiliar w/ me, so I don't have to go far to "think about how silly it sounds."  Silly?  Not really.  A redeemed earth sounds like something that most everyone longs for.  Do you not?


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## earl (Oct 4, 2010)

gt , I'm not the one who made the original claim . I called your ''bluff'' . Show 'em or fold. Incredible claims require incredible proof . [credit to Pnome]


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## earl (Oct 4, 2010)

Pilgrim
Yes I do put faith in myself .. When I screw up I don't blame it on God . When I do OK ,I give my self credit for a job well done. I was raised by a southern Baptist preacher. I was told daily that I was a worthless sinner , even after being saved at a VERY young age . No matter what I did ,it was worthless in God's eyes. A typical Christian raising . 
Needless to say I left at an early age. I also vowed to never allow my kids to be raised that way or even introduced to religion until they were old enough to make their own decisions.
 I now have two independent sons with wives and families that are well taken care of. I have had both my DILs thank my wife and I for raising such great sons. And you dang skippy ,I patted my back and my wife's for a job well done. 
Do I need the Christian God in my life . Not by a long shot . Do I need the Guilt that the Christian religion requires ? Not in this life. Or the next one if there is one. 
The Bible, like almost all religious works has some good things in it . I take those and leave the baggage behind.
 If you need your God to get you through the night and the next day , that's fine for you . I have no need or desire for what you perceive to be the truth.

You asked .


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## earl (Oct 4, 2010)

for gt

http://www.pgdc.com/pgdc/us-charitable-giving-estimated-be-30639-billion-2007

2007 estimates of giving by type of recipient
Charitable gifts benefit at least nine different types, or subsectors, of charities. All subsectors, except new gifts made to foundations, are estimated to have seen increases in total gifts received in 2007. 

Religion: Religious congregations received an estimated $102.32 billion, which is 33.4 percent of the total. This is the first year that giving to religion has exceeded $100 billion. 

Giving to religion increased an estimated 4.7 percent (1.8 percent adjusted for inflation). Religious gifts account for an estimated one-half of all individual giving, not counting gifts made through bequests (5 percent) or family foundations (3 percent). 



Gt 
That means that 66.6 [how about those digits ] were non religious, if my math is correct . This was just a quick search. I am sure there are other sources of info if YOU want to spend the time. Of course that might mess up your post  too.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 4, 2010)

earl said:


> Pilgrim
> Yes I do put faith in myself .. When I screw up I don't blame it on God . When I do OK ,I give my self credit for a job well done. I was raised by a southern Baptist preacher. I was told daily that I was a worthless sinner , even after being saved at a VERY young age . No matter what I did ,it was worthless in God's eyes. A typical Christian raising .
> Needless to say I left at an early age. I also vowed to never allow my kids to be raised that way or even introduced to religion until they were old enough to make their own decisions.
> I now have two independent sons with wives and families that are well taken care of. I have had both my DILs thank my wife and I for raising such great sons. And you dang skippy ,I patted my back and my wife's for a job well done.
> ...


 Thanks for responding.  May I work backwards thru what you wrote?  Thanks! 
I'm interested in what you think the Bible has to say that is good.  And I'm curious, where did you get the idea of what is "good" and what is not?
What do you need to make it through the night and the next day?  Is it not the same things for me:  my body to work?  oxygen?  food?  water?  chocolate milk? relationships? a good dog? 
What I "perceive to be the truth" has been tried and tested.  Throw the hardest punch you've got at Christianity - if it's false, it will fall.  If it's true, it will stand.  Everything w/ Christianity rests on the resurrection of Christ.  If He didn't do that, it's all a lie, and I am an idiot.  
I am so sorry you were raised in the manner of which you wrote.  That is really sad to me.  Honestly, I doubt that you've experienced the Christianity of which the Bible speaks.  Just from the bit you wrote, it sounds like you've been around a lot of people who treat the Bible as an encyclopedia - and not a story.  Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, I would've left that religion, too!!  You'd have been neurotic to stay! 
Christians are not driven by guilt.  All the guilt and condemnation that Christians deserve has fallen on Christ; and all of His perfection has been transferred to the account of the believer.  Therefore, there is NO more wrath for the believer - only freedom!!  
Maybe one reason that your story is what it is, is b/c you now know better than most believers how to spot a phony.  Maybe that's so you would be attracted to truth whenever it came to you.


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## Jasonbritt80 (Oct 4, 2010)

In the beganing god created man in his "OWN" image. He created us as he saw him self.....GOD. He did not want us as mindless drones, he didnt want us as a more or less ant farm. The only way to do this was give us choice. More importantly choice in Love because without choice loving someone or something is kinda hard. But with choice there also comes bad choices....such as eatting the apple....and with any choice come consiquence...and we fell from Gods grace. We needed a way to god...SO just as the early jews sacrificed a lamb to GOD. THE son was sacrified as the lamb. 
IT sucks bad things happen alot of people get born with the short end of the stick. But no one condeams you for anything you do at least the shouldnt no sin is greater than the other. As far as God allowing the world to be the way it is WELLLLL IT SUCKS sometimes and im sorry but it was planned that way long before we where all here. 
Its not so hard to realize that god exist so easy sitting in the stand before Sun comes up. you listen to complete silence then as sun cracks the woods come alive. ITs so perfect and serine cant be just an accident. ME would rather live my life believing what i believe to all the sudden relize I was wrong and my forever is gonna suck..... TRY HOLDING A LIGHTER TO UR BALLS. Rather have faith in this one then to be wrong about the next... thats just my input.


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## gtparts (Oct 5, 2010)

earl said:


> for gt
> 
> http://www.pgdc.com/pgdc/us-charitable-giving-estimated-be-30639-billion-2007
> 
> ...



earl, you did great. There are some things I would point out.

The challenge, as it was made, is to compare the largess of Christians to other religions, not non-religious giving. The information you presented does not break the religious giving down by Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, etc. 

Second, it should be noted, your information consists only of estimates for the U.S., not world-wide.

The third point is that of the 300+ million given in the U.S., roughly 100 mil was given TO religious entities. Of the remaining 200 mil, how much of that was given by Christians as compared to other faiths? And how much of the 100 mil was spent within the community and faith?

The other effect of the limitations I placed would be to exclude corporate giving and government grants, as neither is religious in function.  

And, finally, the restriction that such giving be outside of the community would exclude money given by, say, a Muslim businessman in Detroit to the Detroit Ballet, but would allow the contribution of a Hindu family in Maryland to the Portland Philharmonic in Oregon. 

Truthfully, I think the task is not realistic because the data has never been gathered and broken down in such manner that I am aware of. But, I do believe that true charitable giving from all Christians to those outside their own community and faith would dwarf the giving of any other religion outside their community and faith, apples to apples, as it were.


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## earl (Oct 5, 2010)

GT , my friend , you are welcome to show me apples vs apples. I will gladly entertain any backup to your post that you think appropriate and legit . 
As Benny Hill would say  ''Carry on .''


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## earl (Oct 5, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Thanks for responding.  May I work backwards thru what you wrote?  Thanks!
> I'm interested in what you think the Bible has to say that is good.  And I'm curious, where did you get the idea of what is "good" and what is not?
> What do you need to make it through the night and the next day?  Is it not the same things for me:  my body to work?  oxygen?  food?  water?  chocolate milk? relationships? a good dog?
> What I "perceive to be the truth" has been tried and tested.  Throw the hardest punch you've got at Christianity - if it's false, it will fall.  If it's true, it will stand.  Everything w/ Christianity rests on the resurrection of Christ.  If He didn't do that, it's all a lie, and I am an idiot.
> ...





Morals... Japan ,China , Israel ,VietNam and many more . I won't argue if you believe that Christianity is the sole source of morality  because you would be wrong .

What  gets me through the night / My grand babies smiles when they see me ,my 5 dogs , my wife,my kids , and many other things.

Christianity , don't believe it and certainly don't need it . A barbaric religion that holds you to unattainable standards.

Upbringing ..actually pretty standard PK issue. I have talked to many others and mine just wasn't that different.And yes I can spot a phony pretty quick.


Freedom...Just living in the USA gives me more freedom than 99.99 % of the world's population . Not believing in Christianity makes me free er than millions more .


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## Pilgrim (Oct 6, 2010)

earl said:


> Morals... Japan ,China , Israel ,VietNam and many more . I won't argue if you believe that Christianity is the sole source of morality because you would be wrong .
> 
> What gets me through the night / My grand babies smiles when they see me ,my 5 dogs , my wife,my kids , and many other things.
> 
> ...


 
No, I'm not saying that morals come from Christianity - as much as I'm asking, "On what basis do you decide whether something is good or not?"  I don't know if you believe if there is a God or not; I'm simply wanting to know if you would agree that you have some built-in standards that point to His existence just b/c you have been made in his image.
Again, with all due respect, I don't think you understand the Christianity of which the Bible speaks.  It is not barbaric.  And unattainable standards?  Brother, that's why God came in the form of a man - to do it FOR us.  I'm quite sure you know the last three words he spoke before he died = "It is finished."  He was speaking of fulfilling what He came to do.  His whole point in coming is to deliver us from the unattainable standards that religion (which i hate!) puts on us.
I think you said you are the son of a Baptist pastor.  Not that I'm down on Baptists at all, but have you talked to PKs from other denominations?  Just curious.


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## earl (Oct 6, 2010)

Backwards
I have talked with a lot of different denominations PKs. Most ,not all, agree that the Catholics have the right idea. Preachers should not have kids. If you are so filled with God that you are called to minister to others, you don't need ,nor can you care for , a family .

I stand by the ''unattainable '' . Name one person in the last 1500 years or so that has obeyed each and every commandment in the Bible. Leaving out Jesus , you can't do it . You will sin.

Morals are learned from your parents at first  ,or the ones who raise you . Then you start being influenced by others as you go to school ,college ,etc.  Morals are influenced and learned in a plethora of ways . 

I do believe their is a higher power if you will. I don't think he has any interest in man's day to day life.
Nor do I think man was made in God's image . LJ's views on Jews and Gentiles is a perfect example. If both were made in his image , why would the Jew be the Chosen People ? Not Caucasian , Black, Oriental , Hispanic ,Indian. ONLY the Jews.
And then you have the whole Homosexual community . Surely they aren't made in God's image !!

I forgot barbaric. Have you read the Old Testament ?!?!?!?


You know , this might be a good topic for the Christian/Judaism forum .


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## Pilgrim (Oct 6, 2010)

earl said:


> Backwards
> I have talked with a lot of different denominations PKs. Most ,not all, agree that the Catholics have the right idea. Preachers should not have kids. If you are so filled with God that you are called to minister to others, you don't need ,nor can you care for , a family .
> 
> I stand by the ''unattainable '' . Name one person in the last 1500 years or so that has obeyed each and every commandment in the Bible. Leaving out Jesus , you can't do it . You will sin.
> ...


 Exactly!  I can't name anyone who has obeyed each and every commandment.... that's why He came!  B/c you and I and everybody else can't keep any of them.  Christians aren't held accountable to the Law; Jesus is, and He did it perfect.  When God looks at a Christian, He smiles b/c that person is 100% righteous in His sight... not b/c that person has kept the Law, but b/c Christ did it FOR them as their substitute.
My question about morals remains:  where did they come from?  How do you decide if something is good or evil?  Why do you get angry when someone cuts in line in front of you?  Where did your sense of order come from?  Where did your desire to love come from?  What makes you think there is a higher power?  I believe you have these things hard-wired into you b/c God's very fingerprints are all over you.  Everyone is made in God's image.... EVERYone.  
Yes, He came through the Jewish race, but He came to all races.  He didn't need to become a black man to die for that race - or all of the others.  He made it quite clear by His life that He came for more than just the Jewish race.
That idea about Catholics.... what?  That's crazy.  It's very interesting to me that before sin ever entered the world, God said something was "not good."  That something was the lack of a companion for Adam.  That's AMAzing!  If God were the religious-freak of a god that we've been told about, He would've said Adam wasn't good b/c he hadn't had a "Quiet Time" yet!!  BUT, God didn't say a thing about Himself - and instead gave Adam a woman - then told them to populate the earth.  That was God's plan for evangelism back in those days:  "Go know each other, and this planet will be filled with My Image."


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## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

Pilgrim , you are more than welcome to your opinion.


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## apoint (Oct 7, 2010)

Earl, I dont know anywhere in the Bible that preachers cant have kids, or to eat fish on fridays, or to pray to Mary.


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## ambush80 (Oct 7, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Exactly!  I can't name anyone who has obeyed each and every commandment.... that's why He came!  B/c you and I and everybody else can't keep any of them.  Christians aren't held accountable to the Law; Jesus is, and He did it perfect.  When God looks at a Christian, He smiles b/c that person is 100% righteous in His sight... not b/c that person has kept the Law, but b/c Christ did it FOR them as their substitute.
> My question about morals remains:  where did they come from?  How do you decide if something is good or evil?  Why do you get angry when someone cuts in line in front of you?  Where did your sense of order come from?  Where did your desire to love come from?  What makes you think there is a higher power?  I believe you have these things hard-wired into you b/c God's very fingerprints are all over you.  Everyone is made in God's image.... EVERYone.
> Yes, He came through the Jewish race, but He came to all races.  He didn't need to become a black man to die for that race - or all of the others.  He made it quite clear by His life that He came for more than just the Jewish race.
> That idea about Catholics.... what?  That's crazy.  It's very interesting to me that before sin ever entered the world, God said something was "not good."  That something was the lack of a companion for Adam.  That's AMAzing!  If God were the religious-freak of a god that we've been told about, He would've said Adam wasn't good b/c he hadn't had a "Quiet Time" yet!!  BUT, God didn't say a thing about Himself - and instead gave Adam a woman - then told them to populate the earth.  That was God's plan for evangelism back in those days:  "Go know each other, and this planet will be filled with My Image."



A quick Google of: "Where do morals come from?"  will give you a good start.


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## earl (Oct 7, 2010)

apoint said:


> Earl, I dont know anywhere in the Bible that preachers cant have kids, or to eat fish on fridays, or to pray to Mary.





And I don't remember asking your ''expert'' opinion.
Wouldn't your time be better spent trolling the Christian/sometimes Judaism forum ?


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## Pilgrim (Oct 7, 2010)

earl said:


> Pilgrim , you are more than welcome to your opinion.


 Why, thank you, kind sir!  And you are welcome to yours (but don't take my word for it; if I'm just dust or lucky mud, what I say or you say doesn't really mean squat!).
However, if you and I are made in His image, words really do matter!


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## earl (Oct 8, 2010)

By your own Bible you are not of his image . He is perfection and you are lucky mud.
Adam and Eve were not in his image as they sinned and he is incapable of sin. 
For starters.


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## stringmusic (Oct 8, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> Here is my view of all this.I have made very few post in the Spiritual Help and Religion Discussions section,but I am a frequent reader.I dont like to argue about religion or God in any capacity,there's nothing wrong with healthy discussions but somewhere down the line Gods name always gets used in vain,by believers and non-believers alike and i dont like that.It always seems that its the same ones that are always asking for proof that God exist.These threads are nothing more than a trap trying to lure Christians into sin and comprising there testimony for Jesus Christ.To keep responding to these threads,bickering with them and letting them get you angry has done just this.......It's really like a sport to them....Its plain and simple and every Christian should know the answer,you will never know who God is until you ask him into your heart and receive the Holy Spirit.And the suffering part is simple If your a Non Believer then you dont even know God so whats the big deal... it is what it is. If your a believer then you go thru suffering because Jesus suffered and we have to share in that suffering with him. It also strengthens our Faith in God and builds our Testimony for Christ.Just because you pray for something in particular doesn't mean that God has to answer it in that way,he answers it in his way and that way i have found  is always best.I have seen God work miracles in my life countless times because I put my full trust in Him....Where in that verse does in say you will have a perfect life and never have any tribulation or suffering...To me it says God is always there for me and is my great comforter in all times...If you truly and sincerely want to know who God is you have to ask Him into your heart and believe then ask him to make himself more real to you and He will!!!



seems like alot of people didnt respond to you, not all people like to hear the truth.
great post


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## ambush80 (Oct 9, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> seems like alot of people didnt respond to you, not all people like to hear the truth.
> great post




Most thoughtful people don't want to hear someone talk about their own personal, esoteric experience as if it were truth.  When someone tells you that they have a purple dragon in their closet, and they REALLY seem like they mean it, it's often best to walk away.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 9, 2010)

earl said:


> By your own Bible you are not of his image . He is perfection and you are lucky mud.
> Adam and Eve were not in his image as they sinned and he is incapable of sin.
> For starters.



Sorry, but you are incorrect.

Genesis 1:26&27:

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth,  and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

  So God created man in his own image,
       in the image of God he created him;
       male and female he created them. 

If you are wondering why He used the words "Let *us* make man " it's because He was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  "Us".


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## earl (Oct 9, 2010)

Well something is wrong. If man was in their image ,every one of them are sinners.


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## VisionCasting (Oct 9, 2010)

earl said:


> Well something is wrong. If man was in their image ,every one of them are sinners.



Not necessarily.  I look like my father.  But he's a bit taller.  I know a set of 'identical' twins.  Their mom can tell them apart in the dark.

2Cor5:21  God made him who had no sin to be sin [Christ] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The Bible says Christ is sinless in myriad places.

Being made in God's image refers to our spirit, our ability to love, our intellect, our consciousness, etc...

I really commend you for asking these questions, earl.  Good questions.  Every one of them.


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## earl (Oct 10, 2010)

''Being made in God's image refers to our spirit, our ability to love, our intellect, our consciousness, etc...''

You are going to have to give me scripture for that one. Or is it just more personal opinion ?


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## VisionCasting (Oct 10, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> These threads are nothing more than a trap trying to lure Christians into sin and comprising there testimony for Jesus Christ. To keep responding to these threads,bickering with them and letting them get you angry has done just this.......It's really like a sport to them....



You hit the nail on the head there.


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## Thanatos (Oct 10, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Understood.  Let me try this one out on you...
> 
> And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? (Luke 11: 9-13)
> 
> ...



What the deuce? Where in the bible does it say he will give you what "you" wanted. What if the answer to the prayer was her suffering and eventual death? Not your answer...His answer.


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## Thanatos (Oct 10, 2010)

What you first need to understand is the compatibilism of God's will and man's will...good luck

1. God is absolutely sovereign, but his will never functions in such a way that human responsibility is curtailed or minimized. 

2. Humans are morally responsible creatures. They choose to rebal, obey, believe, defy...etc. They are held accountable for these choices, but our will never functions to make God's will contingent on what our choices are. 

There are many verses to back this up. Here are a few

Proverbs 16:9

"In his heart a man plans his course, but the Lord determines his steps." 

Jermiah 10:23

"I know, O lord, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps"

Isaiah 45:6-7

"I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all those things"

The real problem lies in a finite organism (you and me) not understanding how God can be personable and transient at the same time.  How can God talk to people in the Bible and at the same time know what I am going to eat for lunch tomorrow? God is beyond our simple feelings and emotions. For a finite creature like you and I to question the charity or wraith of an infinite, omnipotent creature is quite silly to me.


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## earl (Oct 10, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> What the deuce? Where in the bible does it say he will give you what "you" wanted. What if the answer to the prayer was her suffering and eventual death? Not your answer...His answer.



Are you sure you have read the Bible ? There are numerous places where promises are made if you take Jesus as your personal savior just like there are numerous places in the OT where promises are made if you believe in God. 

Just to get you started...

He has promised to supply every need we have. The Bible says: "But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus". That's Phillipians 4:19. Now notice, God has obligated Himself only to the extent of our needs. That would include food, clothing, shelter, companionship, love, and salvation thru Jesus Christ. It would not include the multiplicity of luxuries that we have come to think of as needs.
God has promised that His grace is sufficient for us. (II Corinthians 12:9). in fact, He has made provision for our salvation by His grace through faith. Read Ephesians 2:8. It is through an obedient faith that we have access into the grace of God according to Romans 5:2.
God has promised that His children will not be overtaken with temptation. Instead, He assures us that a way of escape will be provided. This promise is recorded in I Corinthians 10:13. Jude wrote: "Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present your faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy" (Jude v 24). Darius, King of the Medes, said to Daniel, "Thy God whom thou servest continually, he will deliver thee" (Daniel 6:16). He did deliver Daniel from the den of lions.


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## earl (Oct 10, 2010)

''For a finite create like you and I to question the charity or wraith of an infinite, omnipotent creature is quite silly to me.''

Even when it is promised or is it only silly if you believe it ?


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## Thanatos (Oct 11, 2010)

earl said:


> Are you sure you have read the Bible ? There are numerous places where promises are made if you take Jesus as your personal savior just like there are numerous places in the OT where promises are made if you believe in God.
> 
> Just to get you started...
> 
> ...



What you "need" is 100% different than what you want. You might "need" to watch someone you love suffer and die to humble yourself, or bring about change in your faith's maturity. Or, it could be he is changing someone else faith. Some people decide that God is terrible because he uses these events to teach us, or humble us. I have said it before. Our lives are like little dew particles evaporating in the morning sun to him. Relative to his "time" our single lives are important to his work, but we are very, very, very, very, very small cogs in his machine.


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## Thanatos (Oct 11, 2010)

earl said:


> ''For a finite create like you and I to question the charity or wraith of an infinite, omnipotent creature is quite silly to me.''
> 
> Even when it is promised or is it only silly if you believe it ?



You hit the nail on the head. Let me get an honest response from you on this. "IF" there was an infinite being controlling the universe would you agree that it would be using poor judgment to think that you know why terrible events happen to people and tell the infinite power that he sucks because he made you go throw a terrible tragedy? 

Sure the event that happen to you is terrible, but why it happened is what you are struggling with correct?


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## earl (Oct 11, 2010)

''IF'' I was created by a God in his image , I was given the capability to think and reason. What possible reason would a God have for creating a creature so far below him ,that ghe wanted to worship and adore him ? 
My dogs love me ,but we don't have deep conversations. If you feel the need to put yourself in a similar position with your God , I don't think much of your beliefs. Imagine spending eternity with gazillions of people who are on a hugely lower level of intelligence !! That doesn't even begin to ring true.


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## earl (Oct 11, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> What you "need" is 100% different than what you want. You might "need" to watch someone you love suffer and die to humble yourself, or bring about change in your faith's maturity. Or, it could be he is changing someone else faith. Some people decide that God is terrible because he uses these events to teach us, or humble us. I have said it before. Our lives are like little dew particles evaporating in the morning sun to him. Relative to his "time" our single lives are important to his work, but we are very, very, very, very, very small cogs in his machine.





I don't buy that for a minute . That is sadistic and narcissistic. I have no intention of giving my entire being over to some one who is so stupid that they cannot communicate with out using major suffering as their main means of communication.

Let's stick baby brothers head in the gas oven for an hour or so . That way big brother will learn that he isn't supposed to do that .  OH,heck yeah !!


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## Thanatos (Oct 11, 2010)

Your starting to catch on now. Human's are so depraved and selfish that sometimes we are taught lessons through terrible things happening in our lives. We are also taught lessons by great joys in our life as well.

In your past two post you are trying to put your self on the same level of thinking as God. You and I know
1/1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
of all the knowledge in the universe yet you try to use your 30 or 40 years on this earth to rationalize why bad things happen to good people, or why do good things happen to bad people. It just seems ignorant to me.


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## earl (Oct 11, 2010)

There is no doubt in my mind that I will never know it all . The big difference I see between our positions is , I am making an attempt to figure things out , while you seem satisfied to let it all rest on a God .
That seems to be not only true ignorance but also a lack of taking responsibility for your own life. 
I also have tried to teach my kids what I do know and encourage them to seek on their own. I did not ,and do not, do it by sticking ones head in the oven, or seeing if one of them will sacrifice their first born, etc. , etc. I for one will not follow God's way blindly . You are more than welcome to. Just be sure to check your local laws first. Internet access in prison ain't all it's cracked up to be.


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## BASSIN (Oct 11, 2010)

I have enjoyed reading the debates and different views. Earl, I just have one question, in earlier posts you talked about "when you were a Christian" and "back when I got saved" etc... I think most of us would agree that if you are saved by God, then you do not save yourself. So if you were truly saved then how can you unsave yourself? Also, why are you teaching your kids morals and about the right way to live and being a good person etc... It is so simple because apart from God there is no good. Earl, you have the Lord written all over you brother, all you have to do is let him in. This is not an attempt to make you think or save you or anyhting like that. It is just so easy to see in all of your posts. One day between now and your last earthly day you will feel the face of GOD brush against you and it will blow you away with the weight that will be lifted off your shoulders that has been placed there by worldly and human standards. Love you brother, God is definitely stirring in your heart, it is just a matter of time and man that makes me smile


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## earl (Oct 11, 2010)

BASSIN said:


> I have enjoyed reading the debates and different views. Earl, I just have one question, in earlier posts you talked about "when you were a Christian" and "back when I got saved" etc... I think most of us would agree that if you are saved by God, then you do not save yourself. So if you were truly saved then how can you unsave yourself? Also, why are you teaching your kids morals and about the right way to live and being a good person etc... It is so simple because apart from God there is no good. Earl, you have the Lord written all over you brother, all you have to do is let him in. This is not an attempt to make you think or save you or anyhting like that. It is just so easy to see in all of your posts. One day between now and your last earthly day you will feel the face of GOD brush against you and it will blow you away with the weight that will be lifted off your shoulders that has been placed there by worldly and human standards. Love you brother, God is definitely stirring in your heart, it is just a matter of time and man that makes me smile





Perhaps you missed the OSAS thread. Quite interesting .
As far as there being no good apart from God ,I will have to disagree. There is so much good in places that have not heard of ,or do not believe in , the Christian God that your thought is unimaginable.
But thanks for the kind words.


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## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2010)

I assume the atheist want to be robots and controlled by a remote?????

Then of course if you were, you would still be mad at God for not allowing you to be free. I am almost certain now that you have to be domcrat to become an atheist. Something about having that controlling power over you.


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## Spotlite (Oct 11, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> By the way, the God of the Bible is a liar and the book is full of inconsistencies.  He was written very poorly as a character.  You want it to make sense?  Close your eyes, fold your arms across your chest and fall backwards....into stupidity.



Famous words from a buddy of mine "a lie dont care who tell it do it"


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## earl (Oct 12, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> I assume the atheist want to be robots and controlled by a remote?????
> 
> Then of course if you were, you would still be mad at God for not allowing you to be free. I am almost certain now that you have to be domcrat to become an atheist. Something about having that controlling power over you.





Shrooms ????


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## Spotlite (Oct 12, 2010)

earl said:


> Shrooms ????



Feelings mutual


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## Pilgrim (Oct 12, 2010)

Once again, I'm going to ask Earl:  where are you getting this idea of "good" that keeps showing up in your posts?  If we are just lucky mud, why do we have some sense of what is good and what is bad?  Where did it come from?  Is it not proof that we are indeed made in our Creator's image?


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## pnome (Oct 12, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Once again, I'm going to ask Earl:  where are you getting this idea of "good" that keeps showing up in your posts?  If we are just lucky mud, why do we have some sense of what is good and what is bad?  Where did it come from?  Is it not proof that we are indeed made in our Creator's image?




It comes from your will to survive.  

Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.


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## earl (Oct 12, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Once again, I'm going to ask Earl:  where are you getting this idea of "good" that keeps showing up in your posts?  If we are just lucky mud, why do we have some sense of what is good and what is bad?  Where did it come from?  Is it not proof that we are indeed made in our Creator's image?



I keep telling you . It comes from how you are raised ,your surroundings and peer influence. What you or I or anyone else consider good is taught and influenced by those three things. Change any , or all, of those and your idea of good changes. What is so hard to understand ?
It is not proof of being made in your creator's image. If that was the case ,all who were made in his image would have the same ideas of good and evil. And we both know that isn't true.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 12, 2010)

You and I would both agree that it would be wrong to walk up to the nearest school-bus stop and kill a student waiting for the bus.  Yes, that is wrong b/c we've been taught that by our parents, society, etc.  But WHY have THEY taught us that is wrong?  And WHY do you have a problem with someone who breaks in line in front of you?  or who tries to steal your possessions?  And WHY are so many of the "good" and "bad" distinctions universal?


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## earl (Oct 12, 2010)

A better question to go with your assertion that they came from God would be why do they vary so greatly world wide ? Why aren't all the same. You are the one trying to prove a point . I simply have not seen any thing to convince me you are correct . Keep trying .


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## Huntinfool (Oct 12, 2010)

I won't say that I'm fully following in WTM's footsteps.  But I will say this...

...this area of the forums has been a great blessing in my life for a while now.  However, I see very little good in what's going on in here recently and so I will also be taking an extended break.

Hopefully I'll look back in here at some point and I'll see the light that was on when I first poked my head in.  

There are non-believers here who I would call friend any day and I would love to sit around a fire with you guys some day.  However, the new "crop" is here for more sinister purposes IMHO.


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## Thanatos (Oct 12, 2010)

earl said:


> I keep telling you . It comes from how you are raised ,your surroundings and peer influence. What you or I or anyone else consider good is taught and influenced by those three things. Change any , or all, of those and your idea of good changes. What is so hard to understand ?
> It is not proof of being made in your creator's image. If that was the case ,all who were made in his image would have the same ideas of good and evil. And we both know that isn't true.




I have a few more things to say about previous post, but I will keep it brief for because I'm sitting in a tree. 

The problem with your conclusion is that worldwide we have the same legal standards in place for the heinous crimes. While a lot of our morals are cultural beliefs you can not disagree that through most cultures in the world they have a legal system in place to deter murder, lying, stealing, etc.


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## Thanatos (Oct 12, 2010)

earl said:


> A better question to go with your assertion that they came from God would be why do they vary so greatly world wide ? Why aren't all the same. You are the one trying to prove a point . I simply have not seen any thing to convince me you are correct . Keep trying .



Earl I am gaining more confidence that you will be saved one day. Do you know who else in the Bible questioned God's will and felt great sorrow about God's plan?


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## ambush80 (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> I have a few more things to say about previous post, but I will keep it brief for because I'm sitting in a tree.
> 
> The problem with your conclusion is that worldwide we have the same legal standards in place for the heinous crimes. While a lot of our morals are cultural beliefs you can not disagree that through most cultures in the world they have a legal system in place to deter murder, lying, stealing, etc.




I've seen some posts around here that would say that the Muslims are encouraged to murder, lie and steal.


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## Thanatos (Oct 13, 2010)

earl said:


> There is no doubt in my mind that I will never know it all . The big difference I see between our positions is , I am making an attempt to figure things out , while you seem satisfied to let it all rest on a God .
> That seems to be not only true ignorance but also a lack of taking responsibility for your own life.
> I also have tried to teach my kids what I do know and encourage them to seek on their own. I did not ,and do not, do it by sticking ones head in the oven, or seeing if one of them will sacrifice their first born, etc. , etc. I for one will not follow God's way blindly . You are more than welcome to. Just be sure to check your local laws first. Internet access in prison ain't all it's cracked up to be.



Man you are consumed with these HUGE, BROAD assumptions. 

While being raised in a Christian home I started doubting my beliefs when I reached the age of "everyone else is full of crap and I know more than them" phase.
I believed the same as many agnostics that God was conjured up by the weak to deal with death and situations they did not want to take responsibility for. But, there was always this nagging feeling that I wanted more information before i jumped 100% into my agnostic beliefs. I researched and took in some creation, astronomy, and light physics reading . I started to read the Bible again. Specifically the New Testament. Before I opened it I said, "God if you are there please speak to me through your words"...and here we are. So your quote about lack of questioning my beliefs is false. I believe the more you question your faith the closer you will become to God, IF you let Him in and humble yourself.

There are MANY places in the Bible that teach us we, as humans, are to blame for our sins and our faults. I can quote scripture but I bet you already know the verses. It is very easy to blame our failures on God. It is just as easy to not give God credit our successes.


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## ambush80 (Oct 14, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> Man you are consumed with these HUGE, BROAD assumptions.
> 
> While being raised in a Christian home I started doubting my beliefs when I reached the age of "everyone else is full of crap and I know more than them" phase.
> I believed the same as many agnostics that God was conjured up by the weak to deal with death and situations they did not want to take responsibility for. But, there was always this nagging feeling that I wanted more information before i jumped 100% into my agnostic beliefs. I researched and took in some creation, astronomy, and light physics reading . I started to read the Bible again. Specifically the New Testament. Before I opened it I said, "God if you are there please speak to me through your words"...and here we are. So your quote about lack of questioning my beliefs is false. I believe the more you question your faith the closer you will become to God, IF you let Him in and humble yourself.
> ...



So let me get this straight, if you ask "God, show me you exist." You have to believe that he exists before he gives you an answer?


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## Thanatos (Oct 14, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So let me get this straight, if you ask "God, show me you exist." You have to believe that he exists before he gives you an answer?



He is giving you answers every day man. If you perceive what you are seeing through the Christian magnifying glass you will be overtaken by amazement in all his creations. You will also be deeply saddened and overjoyed by Jesus sacrifice. Note that many people "say" they perceive through that glass, but they have a large amount of worldly belief and emotion in their language when they speak to others about God. 

Jesus questioned God's will about his death. He did not face his fate as a super hero that you and I conjure up. As he took his last breath he asked his father who had been with him since the beginning of time and space, "My father, my father...why have you forsaken me?" Can you imagine that? We are sad or depressed when we lose someone that we have known for a couple of years, or maybe even 80 years. That day on the cross it was God's will to sacrifice his son who had been with him for all eternity. That is true pain. No one will ever feel that type of pain. But, Jesus had to give up his life to save our souls because we are not capable of the love Jesus has. We are to selfish to conform to what God initially created us to do.


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## fish hawk (Oct 14, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So let me get this straight,



Dude that avatar pic is just plain weird to me,cant you find something else or is that you with the 10 foot tall woman and why does she need stacks on??Those are some questions I would like answered!!!


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## earl (Oct 14, 2010)

''If you perceive what you are seeing through the Christian magnifying glass you will be overtaken by amazement in all his creations.''

Very interesting choice of words.
If I use a magnifying glass to observe Christianity , it gets ugly real quick.

You evidently believe the garbage about the inherent bad of mankind. Without your God you are not worthy .
I on the other hand believe in the inherent GOOD of mankind. 
There is such a vast chasm between those two beliefs that it's unbelievable. Raise a kid telling him he is unworthy every day of his life . Raise another one telling him you believe him to be good.

You don't have to tell me how it works put . I know first hand. 

BTW , I do not blame any one for my failures . I blame God for his. If you go back to the OP ,you will see that was my point to start with. Broken promises.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 14, 2010)

Earl, your perception of man and Christianity are both wrong.  
If man is inherently good, why do we have to work so much at establishing laws and rules and obedience to authority figures?
Your idea of Christianity is people who beat themselves up w/ guilt and who try to live up to some unattainable standard.  I would want nothing to do w/ that either.  My guess is that you've heard a whole lot of preaching that makes you feel like a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- ... but that never points to a Savior.  God did not send a note saying, "DO BETTER!"  He sent His Son b/c we couldn't.  He is FOR His people.  It's His KINDNESS that leads to repentance - not His wrath.
You live by faith just as much as I and everybody else does.  Your faith, however, is in your perceptions of reality.  What makes us different?  God showed me that my perceptions of reality were wrong, and I, by His power, agreed.  He takes on my sin, and gives me His righteousness, meaning that He is 100% satisfied with me.  He did that!  He showed me my greatest need, and He met the requirements for that need.  I have nothing that I've not been given.  
If you're upset with God and His promises, focus on the resurrection.  If you can disprove that, you will disprove the Christian faith.  Good luck!


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## Thanatos (Oct 14, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Earl, your perception of man and Christianity are both wrong.
> If man is inherently good, why do we have to work so much at establishing laws and rules and obedience to authority figures?
> Your idea of Christianity is people who beat themselves up w/ guilt and who try to live up to some unattainable standard.  I would want nothing to do w/ that either.  My guess is that you've heard a whole lot of preaching that makes you feel like a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- ... but that never points to a Savior.  God did not send a note saying, "DO BETTER!"  He sent His Son b/c we couldn't.  He is FOR His people.  It's His KINDNESS that leads to repentance - not His wrath.
> You live by faith just as much as I and everybody else does.  Your faith, however, is in your perceptions of reality.  What makes us different?  God showed me that my perceptions of reality were wrong, and I, by His power, agreed.  He takes on my sin, and gives me His righteousness, meaning that He is 100% satisfied with me.  He did that!  He showed me my greatest need, and He met the requirements for that need.  I have nothing that I've not been given.
> If you're upset with God and His promises, focus on the resurrection.  If you can disprove that, you will disprove the Christian faith.  Good luck!



I was going to type this same response. But Earl you HAVE to stop using your broad, sweeping generalizations and assumptions of what YOU think Christians believe. They are way off base. Especially the part about what I would teach my kid. There is no wonder you have a horrible taste in your mouth for God. You have been taught or created a false picture of him.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> I was going to type this same response. But Earl you HAVE to stop using your broad, sweeping generalizations and assumptions of what YOU think Christians believe. They are way off base. Especially the part about what I would teach my kid. There is no wonder you have a horrible taste in your mouth for God. You have been taught or created a false picture of him.



I'm confused.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the fallen condition of humanity basic Christian doctrine.  As I remember it...

1. God created mankind in his image with only one rule/law.
2. Mankind broke this one rule/law.
3. From that point forward, mankind has been a fallen creature - sinful, unclean, rebellious, unworthy, etc. (in need of a savior).

So, based on this theory, when a baby is born, he/she is born sinful, unclean, rebellious, unworthy, etc. (in need of a savior). 

Is that no longer Christian doctirne?  Because it certainly was preached when I attended church.

Maybe the Joel Osteens of the world no longer believe this, but I think most Christians do.  Am I wrong?


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## earl (Oct 15, 2010)

What dex said !!!!! Read back through this thread . You Christians are saying pretty much what I am  saying . Every one is a worthless sinner. LISTEN TO YOUR OWN MESSAGE. IT'S NOT MY BROAD BRUSH , IT'S WHAT YA'LL PREACH.


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## Pilgrim (Oct 15, 2010)

earl said:


> What dex said !!!!! Read back through this thread . You Christians are saying pretty much what I am saying . Every one is a worthless sinner. LISTEN TO YOUR OWN MESSAGE. IT'S NOT MY BROAD BRUSH , IT'S WHAT YA'LL PREACH.


 Hey, we agree on something!.... partly.  The gospel of Christ says that you are 1)More fallen and broken than you could ever dare understand, and AT THE SAME TIME 2)More loved and accepted than you could ever dare hope.  That's the cure for those like me - who are constantly battling self-righteousness and Phariseeism (I am more sinful than I will ever know), AND it's the cure for those who are beat up and worn down from their rebellion (I am more loved and accepted than I could ever imagine).
The gospel is good news!  It tells me what has been done on my behalf to make me right with God.  It is not good advice - which merely focuses on outward restrictions without reaching the heart.  This is the wonderful mystery of the Christian faith:  I live OUT of a relationship with the Father that's been GIVEN to me BY Him.  I am not living FOR a relationship with Him- hoping that He will see how hard I tried and maybe decide to reward me.  There is ZERO confidence in that.  Christ's life, death, & resurrection, are EVERYTHING to the Christian.  If none of that happened, I am the most foolish of all men.  But,.......it happened!


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## campinnurse (Oct 15, 2010)

I have to weigh in on this one too. I have seen a whole lot of so called christians only interested in their own welfare. Or only interested in missions to "save" those in other parts of the world that are perfectly happy with their own religions or beliefs. Yes there are a lot of truly good people who are christians. But there are also alot of truly good people who have other beliefs.


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## earl (Oct 15, 2010)

Pilgrim, If you are true to the Christian beliefs expressed in the Bible, at some point in your journey you said in so many words that you were indeed worthless and of no consequence . ONLY through God's grace were you redeemed.  
I skip the worthless parts and go straight to , I am as good a man,father ,husband, and grandfather as I can be. It works very well. 
You on the other hand have to CONTINUALLY ask forgiveness because you still sin ,there fore are still worthless. 
Christianity  101 through 1,000,001.

campinnurse ,That is an accurate and refreshing statement . However you may want to think twice about posting that in the Christian/Judaism forum. They are kind of odd over there .


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## Thanatos (Oct 15, 2010)

earl said:


> Pilgrim, If you are true to the Christian beliefs expressed in the Bible, at some point in your journey you said in so many words that you were indeed worthless and of no consequence . ONLY through God's grace were you redeemed.
> I skip the worthless parts and go straight to , I am as good a man,father ,husband, and grandfather as I can be. It works very well.
> You on the other hand have to CONTINUALLY ask forgiveness because you still sin ,there fore are still worthless.
> Christianity  101 through 1,000,001.
> ...



What Bible did you read, or what translation did you get? Your interpretation of Christianity is horribly skewed. Your trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole. Or, your trying to add 1 - 1 to get 0, but you refuse to see the other number of the equation and you do not know how to get to zero.

Christianity is about human's being selfish creatures, but we are saved from our depravity by love. You can not intelligibly say what Christianity is about without also acknowledging we believe in a love that goes beyond time and space.


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## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> He is giving you answers every day man. If you perceive what you are seeing through the Christian magnifying glass you will be overtaken by amazement in all his creations. You will also be deeply saddened and overjoyed by Jesus sacrifice. Note that many people "say" they perceive through that glass, but they have a large amount of worldly belief and emotion in their language when they speak to others about God.
> 
> Jesus questioned God's will about his death. He did not face his fate as a super hero that you and I conjure up. As he took his last breath he asked his father who had been with him since the beginning of time and space, "My father, my father...why have you forsaken me?" Can you imagine that? We are sad or depressed when we lose someone that we have known for a couple of years, or maybe even 80 years. That day on the cross it was God's will to sacrifice his son who had been with him for all eternity. That is true pain. No one will ever feel that type of pain. But, Jesus had to give up his life to save our souls because we are not capable of the love Jesus has. We are to selfish to conform to what God initially created us to do.




Does this magnifying glass make you see talking burning bushes and snakes?   I'd rather not, then.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 15, 2010)

Pilgrim said:


> Hey, we agree on something!.... partly.  The gospel of Christ says that you are 1)More fallen and broken than you could ever dare understand, and AT THE SAME TIME 2)More loved and accepted than you could ever dare hope.  That's the cure for those like me - who are constantly battling self-righteousness and Phariseeism (I am more sinful than I will ever know), AND it's the cure for those who are beat up and worn down from their rebellion (I am more loved and accepted than I could ever imagine).
> The gospel is good news!  It tells me what has been done on my behalf to make me right with God.  It is not good advice - which merely focuses on outward restrictions without reaching the heart.  This is the wonderful mystery of the Christian faith:  I live OUT of a relationship with the Father that's been GIVEN to me BY Him.  I am not living FOR a relationship with Him- hoping that He will see how hard I tried and maybe decide to reward me.  There is ZERO confidence in that.  Christ's life, death, & resurrection, are EVERYTHING to the Christian.  If none of that happened, I am the most foolish of all men.  But,.......it happened!



Great explanation, Pilgrim. And a good reminder for me too.


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## dexrusjak (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> What Bible did you read, or what translation did you get? Your interpretation of Christianity is horribly skewed. Your trying to make a round peg fit into a square hole. Or, your trying to add 1 - 1 to get 0, but you refuse to see the other number of the equation and you do not know how to get to zero.
> 
> Christianity is about human's being selfish creatures, but we are saved from our depravity by love. You can not intelligibly say what Christianity is about without also acknowledging we believe in a love that goes beyond time and space.



Your interpretation of love is horribly skewed.

Love is not god saving humanity from our depravity.  Love would be god creating a system in which there is no depravity.

It's like this...

a. You and I are at the lake together, fishing.  All of a sudden, not because of anything you do, just because I'm bored, I push you out of the boat, jump in and hold you underwater so you can't breathe.  As you fight, kick, and pull, I keep holding you under until you get weaker and weaker.  Just before you die, I lift you out of the water and save you.

b. You and I are at the lake together, fishing.  I don't push you out of the boat and hold you underwater.

In which of these scenarios do I demonstrate my love for you?  In which do I act like a total psychopath?


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## earl (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanatos , I give you ALL of Christianity to look at. The ''love''side you think is so prevalent is actually the one that is skewed .For every ''love'' message that Christians put forth there are 100 ''hate'' messages. Look at this entire forum .Look at the news. Talk to a Christian for any length of time and he will tell you how worthless you are . Read the Bible for any number of chapters and you will read the same message. 

Tell you what . Give me a plan of salvation ,or two, that aren't about how worthless mankind is.


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## Thanatos (Oct 15, 2010)

dexrusjak said:


> Your interpretation of love is horribly skewed.
> 
> Love is not god saving humanity from our depravity.  Love would be god creating a system in which there is no depravity.
> 
> ...



Here we go again...another person declaring God unjust and a psychopath because he attributes his own emotions and feelings to what the creator of this universe would or should do. Jeez

Both of your examples are no where close to what God's relationship with his creation is. The quote below says all i need to know about your understanding of the relationship between God and man. 

"You and I are at the lake together, fishing.  All of a sudden, not because of anything you do, just because I'm bored, I push you out of the boat, jump in and hold you underwater so you can't breathe."


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## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> Here we go again...another person declaring God unjust and a psychopath because he attributes his own emotions and feelings to what the creator of this universe would or should do. Jeez
> 
> Both of your examples are no where close to what God's relationship with his creation is. The quote below says all i need to know about your understanding of the relationship between God and man.
> 
> "You and I are at the lake together, fishing.  All of a sudden, not because of anything you do, just because I'm bored, I push you out of the boat, jump in and hold you underwater so you can't breathe."



Who could possibly understand what God would do?  Ancient people who God spoke to and told them what to write, that's who.   And the people who believe what they wrote because he speaks to them too.


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## Thanatos (Oct 15, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Who could possibly understand what God would do?  Ancient people who God spoke to and told them what to write, that's who.   And the people who believe what they wrote because he speaks to them too.



Only if you believe God wrote the Bible


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## earl (Oct 17, 2010)

He didn't . The Jews wrote the first 5 books and a conglomerate of other folks wrote the rest with the exception of the 10 commandants that Moses got straight from the hand of God. Then around 325 or so ,another conglomerate of men decided which works were inspired by God and which ones could be ignored. And of course the wisdom that they had was from God also. 
Imagine if God tried to do that today . There would be a lot of folks sent to the loony bin for a time out .


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