# An oldie but a goodie



## ambush80 (Mar 10, 2017)

This is entertainment:


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> This is entertainment:


Sam was very patient with the Rabbi 
The Rabbi seemed to have a slightly different view point on a few things than we typically hear. Not sure if that has to do with Judaism or just his personal interpretation.


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## ambush80 (Mar 11, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Sam was very patient with the Rabbi
> The Rabbi seemed to have a slightly different view point on a few things than we typically hear. Not sure if that has to do with Judaism or just his personal interpretation.



I think it's a Jewish thing.  It's possible to be a Jewish Atheist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism

They're belief allows them to be a bit more nuanced with their interpretation of scripture.


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## WaltL1 (Mar 11, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> I think it's a Jewish thing.  It's possible to be a Jewish Atheist.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_atheism
> 
> They're belief allows them to be a bit more nuanced with their interpretation of scripture.


Interesting.
I have to admit I think I may have been "intellectually  lazy" on this subject.
I tend to view being Jewish in much the same way as being Baptist  or being Catholic etc.... basically as a denomination. Sounds like I should be viewing it more as being Italian or being French etc. Then within that framework there are Jewish beliefs concerning a god/religion.
That might not have come out right but it sounds like I need to do me some learnin' on the subject.
You and the Rabbi may have taught me something here


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## ambush80 (Mar 12, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Interesting.
> I have to admit I think I may have been "intellectually  lazy" on this subject.
> I tend to view being Jewish in much the same way as being Baptist  or being Catholic etc.... basically as a denomination. Sounds like I should be viewing it more as being Italian or being French etc. Then within that framework there are Jewish beliefs concerning a god/religion.
> That might not have come out right but it sounds like I need to do me some learnin' on the subject.
> You and the Rabbi may have taught me something here



oops


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Interesting.
> I have to admit I think I may have been "intellectually  lazy" on this subject.
> I tend to view being Jewish in much the same way as being Baptist  or being Catholic etc.... basically as a denomination. Sounds like I should be viewing it more as being Italian or being French etc. Then within that framework there are Jewish beliefs concerning a god/religion.
> That might not have come out right but it sounds like I need to do me some learnin' on the subject.
> You and the Rabbi may have taught me something here



Honestly I think statistically most Jews are agnostic.  Jews are an ethnic group.  Judaism is the religion.  One is not synonymous with the other, though most assume it is.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly I think statistically most Jews are agnostic.  Jews are an ethnic group.  Judaism is the religion.  One is not synonymous with the other, though most assume it is.



http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/about-half-of-jews-are-atheists-why-it-is-so-and-why-they-are-jews/


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## WaltL1 (Mar 12, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly I think statistically most Jews are agnostic.  Jews are an ethnic group.  Judaism is the religion.  One is not synonymous with the other, though most assume it is.


Yes I think I may be guilty of lumping them together.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2017)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes I think I may be guilty of lumping them together.



Yeah I used to also.  Odd that as THE ethnic group chosen by God, they probably represent the highest percentage per population of A/As.  Guess 4000 years of persecution is bound to take a toll.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah I used to also.  Odd that as THE ethnic group chosen by God, they probably represent the highest percentage per population of A/As.  Guess 4000 years of persecution is bound to take a toll.


It could also be 4000 years of knowledge that the stuff written in the bible is not true.
Even the Jews know the Exodus did not happen and that is kind of an important event in the bible.


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yeah I used to also.  Odd that as THE ethnic group chosen by God, they probably represent the highest percentage per population of A/As.  Guess 4000 years of persecution is bound to take a toll.





bullethead said:


> It could also be 4000 years of knowledge that the stuff written in the bible is not true.
> Even the Jews know the Exodus did not happen and that is kind of an important event in the bible.



There's some interesting psychology at work here.  It reminds me of the story of the girl in the Columbine shooting who became a Christian martyr:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassie_Bernall

Even after it was revealed that it didn't happen like it was first reported, the story continued to be told.  There's even a movie out now about another girl who was ruthlessly killed.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...mbine-victim-supposedly-killed-for-her-faith/

I've read alot of criticism about the Christian Church's martyrdom of these poor victims.  There are alot of people that say "Who cares if that's how it really happened. What's important is that Christ is exalted".  It's more important that their stories be told in such a way as to galvanize the faith of believers, the _truth_ is less important.  I understand the utility of fudging stories like that.  I understand the utility of religious faith. The Jews apparently understand it the way that I do, too.  Perhaps it's the benefit of being such an old religion that they can allow themselves to understand the ancient stories in a sensible way.  Then there are those that insist that the Columbine narratives are true and won't hear another word about them being otherwise.  This phenomena happens to stories told yesterday but especially to stories told 2000 years ago.


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## 660griz (Mar 13, 2017)

I guess anyone can be (insert religion) atheist. 
Just go through all the motions except for the actual believing in God part.
I could convert and become a full blown Jew and an atheist. Interesting.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2017)

bullethead said:


> It could also be 4000 years of knowledge that the stuff written in the bible is not true.
> Even the Jews know the Exodus did not happen and that is kind of an important event in the bible.



Guess you need to specify "which" Jews.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2017)

660griz said:


> I guess anyone can be (insert religion) atheist.
> Just go through all the motions except for the actual believing in God part.
> I could convert and become a full blown Jew and an atheist. Interesting.




You can't become a Jew no more than you can become Chinese.


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## 660griz (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You can't become a Jew no more than you can become Chinese.



Sure I could. And be a full fledged Jew. Jewish is not a race.
http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/becomingjewish.html


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> There's some interesting psychology at work here.  It reminds me of the story of the girl in the Columbine shooting who became a Christian martyr:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cassie_Bernall
> 
> ...



There's so much wrong with this post its borders on psychosis, not simply psychologic.


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> There's so much wrong with this post its borders on psychosis, not simply psychologic.




Go on then.  Take it apart line by line.


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

https://newrepublic.com/article/122832/why-does-columbine-myth-about-martyr-cassie-bernall-persist

_"But something interesting happened once the truth came to light. Cassie’s church didn't back down. Hanna Rosin did a wonderfully thorough dissection of the rise and fall of the myth in the Washington Post.  Reverend Dave McPherson, Youth Pastor at Cassie's congregation at West Bowles Community Church, told Hanna, “You will never change the story of Cassie.... The church is going to stick to the martyr story. You can say it didn’t happen that way, but the church won’t accept it.”

He didn’t mean just his church; he meant the worldwide evangelical community. And to a large extent, he was right: this widespread debunking was met with widespread denial. She Said Yes was reissued in several formats and sold over a million copies. A vast array of websites sprang up to defend the erroneous story. Too many people had found too much value—spiritually or financially—in the myth to simply let it die. Which explains why 16 years later, a presidential candidate is still repeating it."_


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2017)

ambush80 said:


> Go on then.  Take it apart line by line.



To what end?  Make you look even worse?  No Sir.  I'm content to let you be your own worst enemy.


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPcap/1999-10/14/026r-101499-idx.html


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> To what end?  Make you look even worse?  No Sir.  I'm content to let you be your own worst enemy.



Expose me. 

To show the truth to those who will see.


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

Which one?


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

_"A vast array of websites sprang up to defend the erroneous story. Too many people had found too much value—spiritually or financially—in the myth to simply let it die."_


Hmmmm....When has that ever happened before?


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 13, 2017)

660griz said:


> Sure I could. And be a full fledged Jew. Jewish is not a race.
> http://www.beingjewish.com/conversion/becomingjewish.html



In rare cases one can become what is considered JewISH by certain branches of Judaism.    You cannot become a Jew unless you are born a Jew.


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## 660griz (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> In rare cases one can become what is considered JewISH by certain branches of Judaism.    You cannot become a Jew unless you are born a Jew.



Who is a Jew?

A Jew is any person whose mother was a Jew or any person who has gone through the formal process of conversion to Judaism.

In Jewish tradition, Abraham is called Avraham Avinu (אברהם אבינו), "our father Abraham," signifying that he is both the biological progenitor of the Jews (including converts, according to Jewish tradition), and the father of Judaism, the first Jew.


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## ambush80 (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> To what end?  Make you look even worse?  No Sir.  I'm content to let you be your own worst enemy.



Taking your football and going home.   

I think you've illustrated the greatest lesson to be learned from apologetics: When it gets hard, "shake the dust from your sandals".

Somebody will observe our discussion, hopefully a young person who has a sense that what they've been told "just doesn't seem right", and they will click on the links that I've provided and recognize the true fragility of a belief based on faith.


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## bullethead (Mar 13, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Guess you need to specify "which" Jews.



Every one you included


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## atlashunter (Apr 4, 2017)

I like Harris but he can't fill Hitchens shoes.


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## ambush80 (Apr 4, 2017)

atlashunter said:


> I like Harris but he can't fill Hitchens shoes.



Just different styles.  Hitch was large and in charge.  Harris just tells it like it is; sober as a judge.  I found Hitch's flamboyance distracting occasionally.


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