# Predestination question



## 1222DANO

I'd like to hear opinions on what Romans ch. 8 was meaning about predestination. We really should read the whole chapter first. Well i got a lot out of Romans ch.7 also so might as well read it but it doesn't pertain to the above.. 

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


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## rjcruiser

Seems pretty clear to me. 

1. He Predestined
2. He Called
3. He Justified
4. He Glorified

Looks like Salvation is from God....not much room in there for "me" and "I"


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## 1222DANO

The way i read is we're all born and predestined to be Christ like. i'm not sure if that is correct.  If we throw in a little free will then its not predestined or maybe it is. thats what i'm trying to figure..


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Some who believe in predestination reason basically as follows: God is omniscient. He knows everything, even what is going to happen in the future. He knows what each person is going to do with his life, and he already knows the exact moment and manner of each person’s death. 

So, according to their thinking, when the time comes for an individual to make a decision, his choice cannot be other than the way God has foreseen and foreordained it; otherwise, God would not be all-knowing. This type of reasoning/thinking d not seem too sound.. 

If some force has already determined your future, then trying to take care of yourself is useless. Choosing to smoke or not to smoke would make no difference to your health or that of your children. Wearing a seat belt while riding in an automobile would have no effect on your safety. But this is faulty logic. Statistics show that people who take precautions suffer fewer fatal consequences. Carelessness can result in tragedy.

Consider another line of reasoning. If God chooses to foreknow everything, then even before he made Adam and Eve, he would have known that they would disobey him. But when God told Adam that he must not eat from “the tree of the knowledge of good and bad” or he would die, did God already know that Adam would eat from it? (Genesis 2:16, 17) 

When God told the first couple: “Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth,” did he know that their wonderful prospect of life in a paradise was doomed to failure? Of course not.—Genesis 1:28.

Taken to its logical conclusion, the idea that God foreknows all decisions would mean that he is responsible for all that happens—including wars, injustices, and suffering. Is that possible? A clear answer is provided by what God says about himself.

The Scriptures state that “God is love” and that he is “a lover of justice.” He has always urged his people: “Hate what is bad, and love what is good.” (1 John 4:8; Psalm 37:28; Amos 5:15) On numerous occasions he encouraged his loyal ones to choose a virtuous course. 

For example, when God concluded a covenant with the ancient nation of Israel, he said to them, through Moses: “I do take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today, that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the malediction; and you must choose life in order that you may keep alive, you and your offspring.” (Deuteronomy 30:19) Did God establish ahead of time the choice that those individuals would make? Evidently not.


Joshua, a leader of God’s people in ancient times, exhorted his countrymen: “Choose for yourselves today whom you will serve . . . As for me and my household, we shall serve God.” (Joshua 24:15) Similarly, God’s prophet Jeremiah said: “Obey, please, the voice of God in what I am speaking to you, and it will go well with you, and your soul will continue to live.” (Jeremiah 38:20) 

Would a just and loving God encourage people to do right in the hope of receiving a reward if he knew that they were destined to fail? No. Such encouragement would be hypocritical.

So when good or bad things happen in your life, it is not because these events are inevitable. Very often, ‘unforeseen occurrences’ are simply the consequences of other people’s decisions—whether wise or unwise. (Ecclesiastes 9:11) No, your future is not planned out before you, and your own decisions determine what your everlasting future will be.

In fact, Matt 24:13 shows that those that ENDURE to the end will be saved…


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## Israel

Does God have "future?"
Not "a" future...but future.
Is God subject to time?
If distance and change are measured...what then of he who changes not, and in whom all things consist?


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## 1222DANO

i don't believe in predestination it just seems to always come up when you talk to some about God.. When i read Romans and saw that i was looking for an answer.. I do understand what you mean though. I believe what it was saying is that once we're saved and accepted God we're predestined to be Christ like in our actions and use his word for a predestination of heaven. If we don't choose to do so then their could be consequences for using our own judgement and actions.


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## rjcruiser

1222DANO said:


> i don't believe in predestination it just seems to always come up when you talk to some about God.. When i read Romans and saw that i was looking for an answer.. I do understand what you mean though. I believe what it was saying is that once we're saved and accepted God we're predestined to be Christ like in our actions and use his word for a predestination of heaven. If we don't choose to do so then their could be consequences for using our own judgement and actions.



In your Romans passage above, who calls?  Who justifies?

Going to other scripture....who knocks at the door?

Are we not spiritually dead to sin?  Does not Christ make us alive?  

BTW...Romans is not the only book that references predestination.


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## rjcruiser

kmh1031 said:


> Some who believe in predestination reason basically as follows: God is omniscient. He knows everything, even what is going to happen in the future. He knows what each person is going to do with his life, and he already knows the exact moment and manner of each person’s death.
> 
> So, according to their thinking, when the time comes for an individual to make a decision, his choice cannot be other than the way God has foreseen and foreordained it; otherwise, God would not be all-knowing. This type of reasoning/thinking d not seem too sound.



What happened to Pharoah?  Did he choose to keep the Israelites captive? or did God harden his heart?

Was that his own choice? or was it predestined by God?


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Well, according to the scriptures pharaoh was already hard hearted, and thought he was god...as all the pharaohs did...

Appearing before Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron delivered their message in the name of God. But Pharaoh arrogantly said: “Who is this God so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? 
I do not know him at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (Exodus 5:1, 2) 

Pharaoh proved to be both hardhearted and deceitful, yet God urged Moses to deliver messages to him again and again. (Exodus 7:14-16, 20-23; 8:1, 2, 20)

So, like some people today, they are already hard hearted, and not open to any agreement....


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> What happened to Pharoah?  Did he choose to keep the Israelites captive? or did God harden his heart?
> 
> Was that his own choice? or was it predestined by God?



It was a decision God made so that Israel could learn from observing God's response to the Pharoah's refusal.

Did God predestine that many of those freed people would melt their own jewelry at the base of Mt Sinai so they could built their own God?
Did God predestine many of those people to die by the sword that very night?


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Good post Ronnie T...
And no to both of your questions, that's why it is called free will....they had the choice..and they chose incorrectly..
In fact they called it a "celebration" to god!
Which shows that regardless of what we call it....celebration, if it does not meet Gods approval, then it is not right to do..in this case they lost their lives....


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## Artfuldodger

What about prophesy? Didn't there use to be a few prophets that could predict events to come? Wasn't the whole Old Testament about the coming of a Messiah? Wasn't the Noah's Ark story a precursor or picture of how Jesus will save us? So that Israel could learn from observing God's response?  But then if you could LEARN from a response, everything you do could not be predestined only certain events. God might intervene and keep me from driving into a ditch if he has another purpose for me. Since God can intervene in my life, his free will trumps my free will. That would mean I have "Limited Freewill."
Didn't God override Saul's free will?
Was Judas' betrayal foretold?


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Wow, a lot of good questions..but I will try to answer your last one, which may serve to help with the others...

Was Judas Iscariot predestined to betray Jesus?
Ps. 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.” (Notice that the prophecy does not specify which close associate of Jesus it would be. 

God knew that the Devil had used David’s counselor Ahithophel to betray him, and He had that recorded because it demonstrated how the Devil operated and what he would do in the future. 

It was not God but “the Devil . . . [who] put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him [Jesus].” [John 13:2] Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.)

John 6:64: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.” (Not from the beginning of creation, nor from the time of Judas’ birth, but “from the beginning” of his acting treacherously. 

Compare Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13, in each of which texts “beginning” is used in a relative sense. Take note also of John 12:4-6.) I hope this give a little more light to your questions...

As previously stated, God does not predestine our lives according to what the scriptures say..we are all given free will, to obey him, or not...else we would all be robots...


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## 1222DANO

i like reading your responses it does give answers.

i can still see similarity's in daily life. Once i started this thread. it could go both ways. i could turn to the devil and say we're all predestined and theirs no use in trying to do anything about it.''just a for instance i promise i do not'' Or i could use what the Bible teaches and know that i have free will and can turn which ever way based on our premonitions. it all starts with a premeditated thought. Jesus was given the same premeditated thought about Judas but i believe he had more clarity from God.. my words might not help their not as helpful as yours but in layman's terms i guess.


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Thanks for the input, and I appreciate everyone's answers, and especially the questions, as it helps me do research, and then it helps me.

And you are right, you could choose to believe that we are predestined, and thus just coast along, thinking that every step was planned, OR think that God, a loving god, parent, as we are likes to see us take a certain course, gives us the guidance and direction, and instruction to take a certain course...but at the end of the day it is up to us, much like our children....we hope they will take the better path in life, but they do and don't sometimes....
Much likes Gods children...


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## 1222DANO

i believe the closer we get to God the more clarity we'll have on our daily lives.
I was at a funeral today and i have seen this many times. Talk to people about what God has told them about the life that was lost and i believe God talks to people about things other than death.. i have noticed that words will allude them they can't explain what the message is but they have gained knowledge and understanding. I know they have had a message from God and it was intended for them only not me so i'm not meant to understand. If their minds wasn't ready to receive it then they probably won't tell no one for awhile or blow it off as in non belief. If they have a relationship with God they want to tell everyone but a lot will be lost in translation. Some will just think its crazy talk.


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## 1222DANO

What i was meaning by the above statement pertaining to predestination. I have come to understand today we all have an answer from God already in our minds. if we're in the right place to receive them.


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Yes, you are right, we all do have to answer to god...and that is why we must continue searching for the right answers, the truth, as it is very hard to find much of it today in the religions of the world...

Sorry you had to go to a funeral today, but sometimes that is what we have to do. And yes, talking to some people about God and his purposes, and hope are not on everyone's mind...

It reminds me of something I ready recently...regarding death, 

In Ecclesiastes 7:2 tells us: “Better is it to go to the house of mourning than to go to the banquet house, because that is the end of all mankind.” 

When faced with the reality of death, we may turn from our routine concerns or activities and focus on the brevity of life. 

This can help us to live our life in a more meaningful way rather than simply to muddle through or waste it.
So sometimes although we may not like the task, going to a funeral, or reflecting on our own lives causes us to search more for what pleases god, how we can live our lives better, and the truth...


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## 1222DANO

I believe you gave me new insight on funerals i will not look at them the same now. thanks


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## Artfuldodger

kmh1031 said:


> Wow, a lot of good questions..but I will try to answer your last one, which may serve to help with the others...
> 
> Was Judas Iscariot predestined to betray Jesus?
> Ps. 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.” (Notice that the prophecy does not specify which close associate of Jesus it would be.
> 
> God knew that the Devil had used David’s counselor Ahithophel to betray him, and He had that recorded because it demonstrated how the Devil operated and what he would do in the future.
> 
> It was not God but “the Devil . . . [who] put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him [Jesus].” [John 13:2] Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.)
> 
> John 6:64: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.” (Not from the beginning of creation, nor from the time of Judas’ birth, but “from the beginning” of his acting treacherously.
> 
> Compare Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13, in each of which texts “beginning” is used in a relative sense. Take note also of John 12:4-6.) I hope this give a little more light to your questions...
> 
> As previously stated, God does not predestine our lives according to what the scriptures say..we are all given free will, to obey him, or not...else we would all be robots...



You don't in any form or way believe that Jesus was foretold in the Old Testament? If Jesus was to come and die for our sins then would not a certain course of event be necessary for this to happen? Would not God intervene in at least one of the apostles to turn Jesus over to the Romans? Did God not blind the Jews to the point that "they knew not what they do?" If God had not blinded the Jews then God's plan would not have proceeded as planned.
Do you feel God watches from above and changes plans according to our plans? If the Jews had not crucified Jesus then God would go to plan B?


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## kmh1031

*Predes*

Good questions all of them, and yes I believe that Jesus was foretold in the old testament, and yes, the prophesies were fulfilled, according to the old testament and Gods will.

However, you will remember that Satan was involved also, and he knew the scriptures and what the fulfillment of them meant for him and his demons so was it not he that blinded the Jews, and caused them to take the path they took.
You are right, God does have a plan, and it was set forth with the first prophesy, at Gen 3:15.  Gods plan from the beginning has not changed.

I don't think gods plans change based on what we do, as his original purpose and plan has not changed from the beginning....
According to the bible, he has a purpose for us, the earth, and heavens, and unfortunately most of mankind is not working in harmony with those plans...

That does not mean God changes his purpose...

Adam lost a perfect life, and perfection for us....Jesus ransom equaled that by his death, as he was perfect...thus fulfilling the initial prophesy at Gen 3:15


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## Artfuldodger

kmh1031 said:


> Good questions all of them, and yes I believe that Jesus was foretold in the old testament, and yes, the prophesies were fulfilled, according to the old testament and Gods will.
> 
> However, you will remember that Satan was involved also, and he knew the scriptures and what the fulfillment of them meant for him and his demons so was it not he that blinded the Jews, and caused them to take the path they took.
> You are right, God does have a plan, and it was set forth with the first prophesy, at Gen 3:15.  Gods plan from the beginning has not changed.
> 
> I don't think gods plans change based on what we do, as his original purpose and plan has not changed from the beginning....
> According to the bible, he has a purpose for us, the earth, and heavens, and unfortunately most of mankind is not working in harmony with those plans...
> 
> That does not mean God changes his purpose...
> 
> Adam lost a perfect life, and perfection for us....Jesus ransom equaled that by his death, as he was perfect...thus fulfilling the initial prophesy at Gen 3:15



I would also agree Gen 5:3 is the first prophesy and the first of many. That first prophesy came about after man went against God's original plan. Did God not then create Plan B with Jesus as our messiah? Somehow something must be done to get us back on track with God's original plan of living in Eden, correct?


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## Artfuldodger

kmh1031 said:


> Good questions all of them, and yes I believe that Jesus was foretold in the old testament, and yes, the prophesies were fulfilled, according to the old testament and Gods will.
> 
> However, you will remember that Satan was involved also, and he knew the scriptures and what the fulfillment of them meant for him and his demons so was it not he that blinded the Jews, and caused them to take the path they took.
> You are right, God does have a plan, and it was set forth with the first prophesy, at Gen 3:15.  Gods plan from the beginning has not changed.
> 
> I don't think gods plans change based on what we do, as his original purpose and plan has not changed from the beginning....
> According to the bible, he has a purpose for us, the earth, and heavens, and unfortunately most of mankind is not working in harmony with those plans...
> 
> That does not mean God changes his purpose...
> 
> Adam lost a perfect life, and perfection for us....Jesus ransom equaled that by his death, as he was perfect...thus fulfilling the initial prophesy at Gen 3:15



Ok, if Satan blinded the Jews, how did God control the events to make sure Jesus was sacrificed? If God didn't foresee this act, what would have happened if Satan had not blinded the Jews?

Do you feel Satan has blinded everyone today who hasn't seen the light? If all of this blindness is caused by Satan then it doesn't say much for our free will. We can just blame our blindness on Satan.


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Well, regarding Satan, let's let the Bible talk...

2 Cor. 4:4; 11:14, 15: “The god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, that the illumination of the glorious good news about the Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine through.” 

“Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness. But their end shall be according to their works.” Thus God's adversary, Satan the Devil himself, is really being honored by all who do not worship the true God in the manner that He has appointed, even though they may claim to be Christians. Note 1 Corinthians 10:20.)

Just as a master criminal often takes pride in boasting about his power, so did the Devil when tempting Jesus, the Son of God. 

After showing Jesus “all the kingdoms” of the world, Satan made him this offer: “I will give you all this authority and the glory of them, because it has been delivered to me, and to whomever I wish I give it. You, therefore, if you do an act of worship before me, it will all be yours.”—Luke 4:5-7. How could Satan offer Jesus these "kingdoms" if he was not in control of them?

The apostle John reminded Christians of the Devil’s powerful influence, saying that “the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one.” That one, John also said, “is misleading the entire inhabited earth.” (1 John 5:19; Revelation 12:9) 
Rev 12:9 states: So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 
So in answer to your free will question, just like always, we have a choice to serve God, and resist Satan and his modern day influences, or serve God...


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## hummerpoo

kmh1031 said:


> Would a just and loving God encourage people to do right in the hope of receiving a reward if he knew that they were destined to fail? No. Such encouragement would be hypocritical.



So, God’s will is achieved through bribery;  interesting.


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## ambush80

kmh1031 said:


> Wow, a lot of good questions..but I will try to answer your last one, which may serve to help with the others...
> 
> Was Judas Iscariot predestined to betray Jesus?
> Ps. 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.” (Notice that the prophecy does not specify which close associate of Jesus it would be.
> 
> God knew that the Devil had used David’s counselor Ahithophel to betray him, and He had that recorded because it demonstrated how the Devil operated and what he would do in the future.
> 
> It was not God but “the Devil . . . [who] put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray him [Jesus].” [John 13:2] Instead of resisting, Judas yielded to that satanic influence.)
> 
> John 6:64: “From the beginning Jesus knew . . . who was the one that would betray him.” (Not from the beginning of creation, nor from the time of Judas’ birth, but “from the beginning” of his acting treacherously.
> 
> Compare Genesis 1:1, Luke 1:2, and 1 John 2:7, 13, in each of which texts “beginning” is used in a relative sense. Take note also of John 12:4-6.) I hope this give a little more light to your questions...
> 
> As previously stated, God does not predestine our lives according to what the scriptures say..we are all given free will, to obey him, or not...else we would all be robots...




People say all the time "Who are you to say how God should operate?"  What if it's God's will to make robots?  Some robots that love him and some that hate him?


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Yes, you are right...they do...

But would you want your children to be a robot in the way they obeyed you, did what you told them, without knowing why, just did it? 

If so, you would never know if they were doing anything for you for the right reasons...which are more pleasing to parent than making "robot" children. 
Or would you rather have instilled in them the reasons, and choices, options, and have them do it because they loved you and learned to make choices on their own good or bad...and if then the correct choice, how much more happier would you be to see your children make the right choice...?

Do you think God is any different in that regard?


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

"So, God’s will is achieved through bribery; interesting". 

Bribery? No, a better way of life....a more content life, and one filled with hope rather than despair, not knowing the future or why things are as they are in the world....
I don't consider that bribery, just the benefits of the right choice...

But to your point, tons of scripture mention, "reward" for those serving faithfully, and doing Gods will...just a couple..

Prov 1:18: 18 The wicked one earns deceptive wages,
But the one who sows righteousness receives a true reward.
Heb 11:6 Moreover, without faith it is impossible to please God well, for whoever approaches God must believe that he is and that he becomes the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.

Im ok with that....


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## Artfuldodger

2 Corinthians 4:4
Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don't believe. They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News. They don't understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

In relation to free will or election, how can I be called to God if indeed it is Satan who is blinding me? Is this where the Holy spirit calls or awakens me? Blindness and Awakening isn't sounding much like free will.


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## rjcruiser

kmh1031 said:


> Well, according to the scriptures pharaoh was already hard hearted, and thought he was god...as all the pharaohs did...
> 
> Appearing before Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron delivered their message in the name of God. But Pharaoh arrogantly said: “Who is this God so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away?
> I do not know him at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (Exodus 5:1, 2)
> 
> Pharaoh proved to be both hardhearted and deceitful, yet God urged Moses to deliver messages to him again and again. (Exodus 7:14-16, 20-23; 8:1, 2, 20)
> 
> So, like some people today, they are already hard hearted, and not open to any agreement....



So God didn't harden Pharoah's heart?



Ronnie T said:


> It was a decision God made so that Israel could learn from observing God's response to the Pharoah's refusal.
> 
> Did God predestine that many of those freed people would melt their own jewelry at the base of Mt Sinai so they could built their own God?
> Did God predestine many of those people to die by the sword that very night?



God does not predestine Sin.  That being said, we are all evil and can only choose sin apart from God.  See Rom 3:10-12.  

Yes...God did predestine their deaths.  See Eccl 3.  God has appointed a time for everything.




kmh1031 said:


> Good post Ronnie T...
> And no to both of your questions, that's why it is called free will....they had the choice..and they chose incorrectly..
> In fact they called it a "celebration" to god!
> Which shows that regardless of what we call it....celebration, if it does not meet Gods approval, then it is not right to do..in this case they lost their lives....



As sinners, we have free will to sin.  We are spiritually dead...and can choose only sin.

However, God is the one who makes us alive through the Holy Spirit.  A dead man can't resurrect himself...just like a sinner can't save himself.


I know this argument/discussion around free will/predestination has played itself out on this forum more times than I can count.  If you want to know what/why I believe what I believe...search the forum   I'm done


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## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Well, for one thing we need to follow the direction found at John 17:3 "Take in Knowledge"

Learning the accurate truth of the bible, and God's teachings and what to believe and not believe through study will help you make an informed decision.
This with prayer and study...
Just like anything in life, the more we dig into it, study, and learn, the wiser we become to make the right choices.
Just believing is not enough to find the right course as evidenced by this scripture:
James 2:19...
You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.

John 8:31:  Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth,+ and the truth will set you free.

We have an obligation to continue searching for the truth....as it is confusing with so many variations and teachings
And yes...we can choose to wander and be blind...that again is our choice.
However Jesus left us a "roadmap" on what and how to believe...


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## Ronnie T

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take 
my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will 
find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light." 

I think it is so important that this particular promise comes immediately after one of the strongest statements Jesus makes about the sovereignty of God in salvation. “No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” God is in control. If God doesn’t reveal Himself to you, you’re toast. But then immediately Jesus says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” He doesn’t leave anyone out. He doesn’t say, “Come to me, all you to whom the Son chooses to reveal the Father;” that wouldn’t be encouraging, because a person might think, “But how do I know if I’m one of the chosen.” Instead He says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened. . .” That includes every person alive. 

Some Calvinists and Arminians love to fight over whether God is sovereign or man is responsible and free. The Scriptures just quietly respond, “Yes, God is sovereign, and yes, man is responsible and free.” Can anyone come to the Father unless the Father first reveals Himself to that person? No. Will God turn away anyone who wants to know Him personally? No. Does God know the heart of every man? Yes.  Will God prevent the heart of any person from turning to Him?  No. Does God choose us before we choose Him? Yes. Is it also true that “whosoever will may come?” Yes. 

This all goes back to our need to always search for God's purposes, rather than our beliefs.
Didn't Christ come into the world to save sinners?  Yes He did.  

This is an issue which will never be resolved because it doesn't fit into God's eternal purpose.
What is it that God purposed in the coming of His Son?

"Come unto me allllllllllll that are weary."


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## ambush80

kmh1031 said:


> Yes, you are right...they do...
> 
> But would you want your children to be a robot in the way they obeyed you, did what you told them, without knowing why, just did it?
> 
> If so, you would never know if they were doing anything for you for the right reasons...which are more pleasing to parent than making "robot" children.
> Or would you rather have instilled in them the reasons, and choices, options, and have them do it because they loved you and learned to make choices on their own good or bad...and if then the correct choice, how much more happier would you be to see your children make the right choice...?
> 
> Do you think God is any different in that regard?



I wouldn't presume to know what God is like.  Furthermore, it doesn't really matter what I find "pleasing" does it?  He knew you before you were born.  What else is there to say?


----------



## kmh1031

*predestination*

Well, we have the image of God via his son and his dealings, teachings, etc. from when he was on earth, by reviewing his ministry and life on earth, how he treated people, how he taught, and how he loved people, and from that we certainly have a good idea of what God is like..

Many scriptures in the bible that teach us what God is like, and his qualities and attributes...what he likes and dislikes, what he requires for us to serve him properly and it is not hidden or a secret, or kept from us..quite the opposite.


----------



## kmh1031

*Predestination*

And just a little more insight from the Scriptures as to 
"What God is Like"

God is not omnipresent, for he is spoken of as having a location. (1Ki 8:49; Joh 16:28; Heb 9:24) 

His throne is in heaven. (Isa 66:1) He is all-powerful, being the Almighty God. (Ge 17:1; Re 16:14) “All things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him,” and he is “the One telling from the beginning the finale.” (Heb 4:13; Isa 46:10, 11; 1Sa 2:3) 

His power and knowledge extend everywhere, reaching every part of the universe.—2Ch 16:9; Ps 139:7-12; Am 9:2-4.

The true God is spirit, not flesh (Joh 4:24; 2Co 3:17), though he sometimes likens his attributes of sight, power, and so forth, to human faculties. Thus he speaks figuratively of his “arm” (Ex 6:6), his “eyes,” and his “ears” (Ps 34:15), and he points out that, since he is the Creator of human eyes and ears, he certainly can see and hear. Ps 94:9.

Some of God’s primary attributes are love (1Jo 4:8), wisdom (Pr 2:6; Ro 11:33), justice (De 32:4; Lu 18:7, 8), and power (Job 37:23; Lu 1:35). He is a God of order and of peace. (1Co 14:33) 
He is completely holy, clean and pure (Isa 6:3; Hab 1:13; Re 4:8); happy (1Ti 1:11); and merciful (Ex 34:6; Lu 6:36). 
Many other qualities of his personality are described in the Scriptures.
The more we learn what "God is like" the easier it makes us want to do his will and get to know him better....


----------



## ambush80

Ronnie T said:


> "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take
> my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will
> find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
> 
> I think it is so important that this particular promise comes immediately after one of the strongest statements Jesus makes about the sovereignty of God in salvation. “No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” God is in control. If God doesn’t reveal Himself to you, you’re toast. But then immediately Jesus says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” He doesn’t leave anyone out. He doesn’t say, “Come to me, all you to whom the Son chooses to reveal the Father;” that wouldn’t be encouraging, because a person might think, “But how do I know if I’m one of the chosen.” Instead He says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened. . .” That includes every person alive.
> 
> Some Calvinists and Arminians love to fight over whether God is sovereign or man is responsible and free. The Scriptures just quietly respond, “Yes, God is sovereign, and yes, man is responsible and free.” Can anyone come to the Father unless the Father first reveals Himself to that person? No. Will God turn away anyone who wants to know Him personally? No. Does God know the heart of every man? Yes.  Will God prevent the heart of any person from turning to Him?  No. Does God choose us before we choose Him? Yes. Is it also true that “whosoever will may come?” Yes.
> 
> This all goes back to our need to always search for God's purposes, rather than our beliefs.
> Didn't Christ come into the world to save sinners?  Yes He did.
> 
> This is an issue which will never be resolved because it doesn't fit into God's eternal purpose.
> What is it that God purposed in the coming of His Son?
> 
> "Come unto me allllllllllll that are weary."



How do you do it?  How can you recognize all that contradiction and not wanna pull your hair out?


----------



## kmh1031

*Predestination*

I guess I have a question...
IF we are to live the life out as God has so to speak...predestined, and he knows our course...

How is it that his heart becomes saddened based on our actions? It shouldn't become saddened IF he knew the course we were to take...and directed such..

Our Creator, hates injustice. And he created humans in his image. (Deuteronomy 25:16) That is why most of us hate injustice. The injustice around us is not God’s doing. God granted man free will. 

Sadly, many people misuse their free will and practice injustice. God's heart is saddened.—Read Genesis 6:5, 6; Deuteronomy 32:4, 5.

Just a thought...


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take
> my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will
> find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
> 
> I think it is so important that this particular promise comes immediately after one of the strongest statements Jesus makes about the sovereignty of God in salvation. “No one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.” God is in control. If God doesn’t reveal Himself to you, you’re toast. But then immediately Jesus says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” He doesn’t leave anyone out. He doesn’t say, “Come to me, all you to whom the Son chooses to reveal the Father;” that wouldn’t be encouraging, because a person might think, “But how do I know if I’m one of the chosen.” Instead He says, “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened. . .” That includes every person alive.
> 
> Some Calvinists and Arminians love to fight over whether God is sovereign or man is responsible and free. The Scriptures just quietly respond, “Yes, God is sovereign, and yes, man is responsible and free.” Can anyone come to the Father unless the Father first reveals Himself to that person? No. Will God turn away anyone who wants to know Him personally? No. Does God know the heart of every man? Yes.  Will God prevent the heart of any person from turning to Him?  No. Does God choose us before we choose Him? Yes. Is it also true that “whosoever will may come?” Yes.
> 
> This all goes back to our need to always search for God's purposes, rather than our beliefs.
> Didn't Christ come into the world to save sinners?  Yes He did.
> 
> This is an issue which will never be resolved because it doesn't fit into God's eternal purpose.
> What is it that God purposed in the coming of His Son?
> 
> "Come unto me allllllllllll that are weary."



Beautiful post Ronnie....We have our , but I think you summed it up very well.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Beautiful post Ronnie....We have our , but I think you summed it up very well.



You and I have differences????????


----------



## rjcruiser

ronnie t said:


> you and i have differences????????


----------



## hummerpoo

kmh1031 said:


> I don't consider that bribery, just the benefits of the right choice...



Yep, I owe it all to me?


----------



## kmh1031

*Predestination*

well....of course not......all with the support, guidance, direction of God via his word the bible...
by choosing the right course via this direction, all those things are the benefits....
again, back to choices....was it that unclear?


----------



## ambush80

kmh1031 said:


> well....of course not......all with the support, guidance, direction of God via his word the bible...
> by choosing the right course via this direction, all those things are the benefits....
> again, back to choices....was it that unclear?



You realize that you're saying that you are capable of deciding your own fate right?  That God has no control over your decision?  Feels good to be at the wheel.


----------



## kmh1031

*predestioation*

I'snt that free will?
We can choose either way, to serve god, and have a happier life and future, or choose not to...


----------



## hummerpoo

ambush80 said:


> You realize that you're saying that you are capable of deciding your own fate right?  That God has no control over your decision?  Feels good to be at the wheel.





kmh1031 said:


> I'snt that free will?
> We can choose either way, to serve god, and have a happier life and future, or choose not to...



It must feel good to inform God that you have decided to approve His plan.


----------



## kmh1031

*Predestination*

And I am sure that he is pleased that although we have choices...I choose to serve him, even though from Adam down to this day, others have not of their own accord...
Yes, it does feel good,
thanks you...


----------



## ambush80

The unbeliever is the "rock that God made SO big that he cannot lift it".


----------



## kmh1031

*Predestination*

Yes, I have heard that one so many times....

When God created the first human, he produced more than just a body with a brain. 

He implanted in them the faculty of free will. And that was a fine gift, for “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31) Yes, “perfect is his activity.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) All of us appreciate this gift of free will because we do not want all our thoughts and actions dictated to us without ever having a choice in anything. (we hopefully understand this in other areas of life, work, home etc)

However, was the fine gift of free will to be used without limits? NO....

In directions given to early Christians, God’s Word answers: “Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.” (1 Peter 2:16) For the common good, there must be boundaries. Hence, free will was to be regulated by the rule of law. Otherwise, anarchy would result.

So with that point said..........I am going to the for sale forum for a bit...good discussion though, and I do appreciate all of the thoughts....so did God predestine this discussion? or just us...


----------



## BT Charlie

kmh1031 said:


> Yes, I have heard that one so many times....
> 
> When God created the first human, he produced more than just a body with a brain.
> 
> He implanted in them the faculty of free will. And that was a fine gift, for “God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” (Genesis 1:31) Yes, “perfect is his activity.” (Deuteronomy 32:4) All of us appreciate this gift of free will because we do not want all our thoughts and actions dictated to us without ever having a choice in
> anything. (we hopefully understand this in other areas of life, work, home etc)
> 
> However, was the fine gift of free will to be used without limits? NO....
> 
> In directions given to early Christians, God’s Word answers: “Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God.” (1 Peter 2:16) For the common good, there must be
> boundaries. Hence, free will was to be regulated by the rule of law. Otherwise, anarchy would result.
> 
> So with that point said..........I am going to the for sale forum for a bit...good discussion though, and I do appreciate all of the thoughts....so did God predestine this discussion? or just us...




You did well, between the athiest Ambush (or at least unbeliever) and HPoo, a dear brother with substantial feelings not supportive of free will.  A hard place and a rock, indeed.  You bear fruit for the Lord and encourage in His name.  Thanks.


----------



## kmh1031

*Predestination*

well thank you,
Kinda talking in a dark room. Perhaps if I had known who these gentlemen are and what their beliefs were, I might would have been a little more informative for them on these issues in respects to their individual beliefs...

Oh well, enjoyed talking to them. I am sure they are good guys....


----------



## mtnwoman

Personally, I believe in both. I believe Jeremiah was predestined to a be a prophet, it says so in God's word. Was God talking to me? Not necessarily. He was talking to Jeremiah. He also spoke to Isaaic, Jonah, Isaih, Moses. Am I a prophet, I don't think so. So God probably wasn't talking to me.  Equally as much I believe in John 3:16...for 'whosoever'....that's anybody other than the 'elect'... that's our free will at work. I don't believe Moses had free will, nor Jonah.  I believe in the 'elect' and the non elect....the non elect have free will to choose for whom they worship. I don't think Billy Graham really has free will, except to sin. Even David was called out of the field, and yet he still sinned, he murdered someone. I think that once we 'let' the Holy Spirit control us, we don't really have 'free will' any more. That to me is the difference between our soul (us) and our spirit (the part that belongs to God). Does God know what we will choose...of course He does, He is our hightower according to Psalms and He knows what will be ahead for us. But does He hand pick us, yes He does, we are all handpicked, but will we all receive? No.


----------



## Ronnie T

Mtnwoman,

You're like our girlfriend who ran off with some motorcycle gang member, but has now returned.  It's so good to know that you're still around.
Just a few days ago someone comments that we needed your perspective on something.  This place needs some "shaping up".

I hope things are really good for you.

P.S.  You haven't actually been with a motorcycle gang have you?


----------



## BT Charlie

Welcome, Annie.  Missed you.


----------



## Israel

I am persuaded there's not a soul that glimpses heaven that ever responds other than: "I am so thankful you "made" me to see this."

Take it in any and every permutation of the words _to be made_. 

Even men with their eyes open may occasionally bump into things unwanted, and overlook things essential...and when the thumping brings enough unwanted bruising, and the lack produces enough unsought depressions...such a man may even ask..."what am I looking for that I don't need...to the neglect of what I truly do need?"


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Welcome, Annie.  Missed you.



Me too, welcome back. I too believe in both. I just don't go as far as some by giving up my free will when becoming a Christian. Can we totally let the Holy Spirit controll us? How can we still sin if this is possible? How can the Holy Spirit do this if we are still in a human body/flesh?


----------



## BT Charlie

mtnwoman said:


> Personally, I believe in both. I believe Jeremiah was predestined to a be a prophet, it says so in God's word. Was God talking to me? Not necessarily. He was talking to Jeremiah. He also spoke to Isaaic, Jonah, Isaih, Moses. Am I a prophet, I don't think so. So God probably wasn't talking to me.  Equally as much I believe in John 3:16...for 'whosoever'....that's anybody other than the 'elect'... that's our free will at work. I don't believe Moses had free will, nor Jonah.  I believe in the 'elect' and the non elect....the non elect have free will to choose for whom they worship. I don't think Billy Graham really has free will, except to sin. Even David was called out of the field, and yet he still sinned, he murdered someone. I think that once we 'let' the Holy Spirit control us, we don't really have 'free will' any more. That to me is the difference between our soul (us) and our spirit (the part that belongs to God). Does God know what we will choose...of course He does, He is our hightower according to Psalms and He knows what will be ahead for
> us. But does He hand pick us, yes He does, we are all handpicked, but will we all receive? No.



I like this explanation and have never seen it put forth like this before.

A generation or two back, my kin strongly debated the best hand tools.  Sears Roebuck was where my line fell out. The tools had lifetime warranties.  

My kin put up dark peg boards to hold their tools just so, and painted little white silhouettes around the tool.  You could tell by the shape what tools were off the boards, and just to be double sure they put a label with the tool name, applicable size,with the cost they paid inside the silhouette.

Woe...and I mean, woe ... to one who put the incorrect wrench onto a peg, in violation of the order established.  Leave any tool off its appointed peg ... this would be a three day scourging.  

I came to know my kin as less interested in having and using the right tool for the right job and instead having a nearly perverse thrill in the fits they could have when a tool didn't get returned just so to the order they prescribed.   Those boards were baited traps for innocents who just needed some help.

This message board reminds me of that. Guys who get wrapped up in a side of the predestination argument remind me of my dear kin.  Rather than offering to help a brother out, they scourge brothers for trying to put what they think is the wrong device into the empty silhouette on the Lord's peg board.  Their love ... is it in The Lord, or in being right, of a certain, in their own mind, of the device that returns just so to The Lord?

That is not for me to answer.  The Lord gives His tools freely to His children.  I carry them loose, in a little red tool box. They travel with me, as they are light. Love how they rattle around as you look for the right one for the right job.  When I kneel before Him, I'll return 'em in accounting.  

He can stow them on His board just so.


----------



## centerpin fan

Ronnie T said:


> Mtnwoman,
> 
> You're like our girlfriend who ran off with some motorcycle gang member ...



I'm pretty sure I saw her in a couple of episodes of _Sons of Anarchy_.


----------



## gordon 2

Annie, it's so good to see ya!


----------



## BT Charlie

Israel said:


> I am persuaded there's not a soul that glimpses heaven that ever responds other than: "I am so thankful you "made" me to see this."
> 
> Take it in any and every permutation of the words _to be made_.
> 
> Even men with their eyes open may occasionally bump into things unwanted, and overlook things essential...and when the thumping brings enough unwanted bruising, and the lack produces enough unsought depressions...such a man may even ask..."what am I looking for that I don't need...to the neglect of what I truly do need?"



Amen.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> In your Romans passage above, who calls?  Who justifies?
> 
> Going to other scripture....who knocks at the door?
> 
> Are we not spiritually dead to sin?  Does not Christ make us alive?
> 
> BTW...Romans is not the only book that references predestination.




2Thessalonians 2:13-16
13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by our spoken word or by our letter.



Gods calls us through the Gospel. That's why Jesus gave us the "Great Commission"




Matthew 28:16-20 
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”



Revelation 3:20
20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

It is up to man, when he hears the call to answer it. We have to accept Jesus Christ into our hearts as our personal Lord and Savior. Jesus is the one who is predestined and if he is living within us, then we are Predestined with Him. 




Romans 10:11-17

11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.


----------



## tmiller

So if Jesus came to save all men........then is anyone in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -
If there are people in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, then did Jesus fail at what he came to do?


----------



## tmiller

Sorry, I forgot you can't say H E double hocky sticks.


----------



## barryl

tmiller said:


> So if Jesus came to save all men........then is anyone in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -
> If there are people in - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, then did Jesus fail at what he came to do?


We serve a "JUST GOD" It is you that makes the decision where you spend eternity.


----------



## rjcruiser

tmiller said:


> So if Jesus came to save all men........then is anyone in he!l, then did Jesus fail at what he came to do?



Well...there's 3 possibilities with that question

1. No one's in Hel!
2. Jesus failed
3. Jesus didn't come to save all

Obviously, we know people are in Hel!...look at Luke 16:19ff

Obviously, Jesus can't fail...He is God.

So...by simple deduction, Jesus didn't come to save everyone.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> Well...there's 3 possibilities with that question
> 
> 1. No one's in Hel!
> 2. Jesus failed
> 3. Jesus didn't come to save all
> 
> Obviously, we know people are in Hel!...look at Luke 16:19ff
> 
> Obviously, Jesus can't fail...He is God.
> 
> So...by simple deduction, Jesus didn't come to save everyone.



Or it could be that everyone has can be saved....but won't. Because they won't except Jesus as there Lord and Savior.


----------



## Israel

Paul said something like...what if God...willing to make his power known...

Seems we can either marvel at a grace that will suffer such contradiction, such despite against itself, that we are transported in the goodness of God in joy...or...spend our time trying to figure out why some things don't seem to "add up" according to our computations.

When Paul said "knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..." I wonder if he saw what might have been...if left to his own computations of righteousness when he discovered a man who despised Messiah presented to him in his own sight...and was also presented with the mercy of God through Messiah...


No wonder he kept pressing on, letting go...and even, as he said...coming to the place where the only thing he was willing to take away from all the resistance to the gospel, was an even deeper lesson of hope...and to not want to come short in any way of knowing Him from whom such astounding, fascinating, engaging, captivating, all conquering mercy flowed.

To see only mercy.
To be moved by nothing...but the love of God.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> Well...there's 3 possibilities with that question
> 
> 1. No one's in Hel!
> 2. Jesus failed
> 3. Jesus didn't come to save all
> 
> Obviously, we know people are in Hel!...look at Luke 16:19ff
> 
> Obviously, Jesus can't fail...He is God.
> 
> So...by simple deduction, Jesus didn't come to save everyone.



So God is a respecter of persons? When the gospel says, whosover believes, doesn't really mean whosoever?  It really means whosoever God chooses will be saved? So why go thru all this? Was that mistranslated?  Why give us the option? and yet no matter what we choose, we really don't have an option? So what the heck are we doing? If we're chosen, we're chosen, no need to hear the gospel, because we are already chosen. Lord have mercy Jesus on the great commission set before us, for it is futile if we are already hand picked. Just beam us on up outta here already.


----------



## mtnwoman

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Or it could be that everyone has can be saved....but won't. Because they won't except Jesus as there Lord and Savior.



Amen....Christ died for the sins of the world at least that's what the bible says...not for a select few. Reminds me of Jehovah Witnesses who are also the elect of God. Don't get me wrong I like Jehovah Witnesses, I admire their courage...what are they looking for? a lost few chosen who don't know they are chosen or something?


----------



## mtnwoman

centerpin fan said:


> i'm pretty sure i saw her in a couple of episodes of _sons of anarchy_.




lol...my email is annrqy...LOL


----------



## mtnwoman

gordon 2 said:


> Annie, it's so good to see ya!



Thank you!


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Mtnwoman,
> 
> You're like our girlfriend who ran off with some motorcycle gang member, but has now returned.  It's so good to know that you're still around.
> Just a few days ago someone comments that we needed your perspective on something.  This place needs some "shaping up".
> 
> I hope things are really good for you.
> 
> P.S.  You haven't actually been with a motorcycle gang have you?



Not really with a motorcycle gang....but on the chain gang for real. Working like a dog at Dollar General for minimum wage, and it's about to kill me.  We did double sales for december with the same ol' 2 man/woman crew as the rest of the year has been, no extra help...just double the load.  I never thought I'd have to 'dig ditches' but I am now. Pray for me to live until April, when I finally get my bellsouth retirement and my 50 years of paying into social security.


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> Seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> 1. He Predestined
> 2. He Called
> 3. He Justified
> 4. He Glorified
> 
> Looks like Salvation is from God....not much room in there for "me" and "I"


  What is your goal for the great commission? Do you tell someone about Christ because it is a command...I'd say yes. So you tell them the gospel, like the the disciples did?  like Christ left them with...or do you say to them, you could be chosen..listen up? You don't think God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, is in it with you? I do. That puts YOU in it! I love Jesus because He first loved me, not because HE prechose me to 'be' that. Jesus doesn't stand at the head of the the kidlet sunday school class and say......sing to me I CHOSE YOU....you're special so sing! We sing because HE died for us! We believe because HE died for us! We live and survive because HE has mercy and grace on us!!!! Not because we are chosen.....because we LOVE HIM for what HE did on the cross and because we comprehend it and get it and want it. And yes I do say God, thank you for letting me get it. Not because I'm special, but because I HAVE HEARD AND BELIEVED THE GOSPEL....and my commission is to put others in that situation.


----------



## M80

mtnwoman said:


> What is your goal for the great commission? Do you tell someone about Christ because it is a command...I'd say yes. So you tell them the gospel, like the the disciples did?  like Christ left them with...or do you say to them, you could be chosen..listen up? You don't think God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, is in it with you? I do. That puts YOU in it! I love Jesus because He first loved me, not because HE prechose me to 'be' that. Jesus doesn't stand at the head of the the kidlet sunday school class and say......sing to me I CHOSE YOU....you're special so sing! We sing because HE died for us! We believe because HE died for us! We live and survive because HE has mercy and grace on us!!!! Not because we are chosen.....because we LOVE HIM for what HE did on the cross and because we comprehend it and get it and want it. And yes I do say God, thank you for letting me get it. Not because I'm special, but because I HAVE HEARD AND BELIEVED THE GOSPEL....and my commission is to put other in that situation.



Amen mtwoman, good to hear from you


----------



## rjcruiser

mtnwoman said:


> What is your goal for the great commission? Do you tell someone about Christ because it is a command...I'd say yes. So you tell them the gospel, like the the disciples did?  like Christ left them with...or do you say to them, you could be chosen..listen up? You don't think God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, is in it with you? I do. That puts YOU in it! I love Jesus because He first loved me, not because HE prechose me to 'be' that. Jesus doesn't stand at the head of the the kidlet sunday school class and say......sing to me I CHOSE YOU....you're special so sing! We sing because HE died for us! We believe because HE died for us! We live and survive because HE has mercy and grace on us!!!! Not because we are chosen.....because we LOVE HIM for what HE did on the cross and because we comprehend it and get it and want it. And yes I do say God, thank you for letting me get it. Not because I'm special, but because I HAVE HEARD AND BELIEVED THE GOSPEL....and my commission is to put other in that situation.



No reason to get angry about it.  Or am I just mis-reading your emotion?

To answer your questions...of course...I great commission.  Why? Because God tells me to.  Same reason I pray.

But when I thank God for my salvation, it isn't because of my own doing, but thanking Him for opening up my eyes...for His work in me.

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ.  And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.  


Oh...and as far as the whosoever...context and orignal language is key to understand that verse.  But, I guess....that is the key to all Biblical exegesis.


----------



## jmharris23

And the wheels on the bus go round and round …..


It is good to have you back Annie!


----------



## mtnwoman

rjcruiser said:


> No reason to get angry about it.  Or am I just mis-reading your emotion?
> 
> To answer your questions...of course...I great commission.  Why? Because God tells me to.  Same reason I pray.
> 
> But when I thank God for my salvation, it isn't because of my own doing, but thanking Him for opening up my eyes...for His work in me.
> 
> Gal 2:20
> I am crucified with Christ.  And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.
> 
> 
> Oh...and as far as the whosoever...context and orignal language is key to understand that verse.  But, I guess....that is the key to all Biblical exegesis.



It ain't anger rj....not at all. It's just that I am thankful for Him giving 'us' the option.  He pricked my heart like He does everyone on earth when they hear the gospel.....I am greatful/grateful that I heard the gospel at a young age and when I was the most tender, He pricked my heart and I believed because He foreknew me. There is nothing I could ever do to wash away my sins. No matter how many times I apologize to folks or to Christ. Only His blood that was shed for me, and anyone else who receives, can wash my/our sins away by His blood shed.  I take no credit, for I have none. There is something about the gospel that is supernatural, something beyond the realm of our fleshly existance.  He, Himself, tells us to do something....spread the gospel,  the great commission He set before us. So yes, to me, it is something I should do, because He told me to. Not because that will save me, but because it could bring someone else to Him.


----------



## mtnwoman

jmharris23 said:


> And the wheels on the bus go round and round …..
> 
> 
> It is good to have you back Annie!



Thanks Jim!! Glad to be here!


----------



## M80

mtnwoman said:


> It ain't anger rj....not at all. It's just that I am thankful for Him giving 'us' the option.  He pricked my heart like He does everyone on earth when they hear the gospel.....I am greatful/grateful that I heard the gospel at a young age and when I was the most tender, He pricked my heart and I believed because He foreknew me. There is nothing I could ever do to wash away my sins. No matter how many times I apologize to folks or to Christ. Only His blood that was shed for me, and anyone else who receives, can wash my/our sins away by His blood shed.  I take no credit, for I have none. There is something about the gospel that is supernatural, something beyond the realm of our fleshly existance.  He, Himself, tells us to do something....spread the gospel,  the great commission He set before us. So yes, to me, it is something I should do, because He told me to. Not because that will save me, but because it could bring someone else to Him.



I enjoy your post, amen


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

mtnwoman said:


> What is your goal for the great commission? Do you tell someone about Christ because it is a command...I'd say yes. So you tell them the gospel, like the the disciples did?  like Christ left them with...or do you say to them, you could be chosen..listen up? You don't think God and Christ and the Holy Spirit, is in it with you? I do. That puts YOU in it! I love Jesus because He first loved me, not because HE prechose me to 'be' that. Jesus doesn't stand at the head of the the kidlet sunday school class and say......sing to me I CHOSE YOU....you're special so sing! We sing because HE died for us! We believe because HE died for us! We live and survive because HE has mercy and grace on us!!!! Not because we are chosen.....because we LOVE HIM for what HE did on the cross and because we comprehend it and get it and want it. And yes I do say God, thank you for letting me get it. Not because I'm special, but because I HAVE HEARD AND BELIEVED THE GOSPEL....and my commission is to put others in that situation.



Amen!


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> No reason to get angry about it.  Or am I just mis-reading your emotion?
> 
> To answer your questions...of course...I great commission.  Why? Because God tells me to.  Same reason I pray.
> 
> But when I thank God for my salvation, it isn't because of my own doing, but thanking Him for opening up my eyes...for His work in me.
> 
> Gal 2:20
> I am crucified with Christ.  And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.
> 
> 
> Oh...and as far as the whosoever...context and orignal language is key to understand that verse.  But, I guess....that is the key to all Biblical exegesis.



How did God open your eye's? Was someone preaching the gospel to you? Were you reading scripture?


----------



## jmharris23

Personally, I don't see how Calvinism or the doctrine of predestination hurts the spread of the gospel, nor do I see that it lessens the motivation of the believer to spread the gospel. 

Calvinism and it's doctrines are an explanation of how people come to God, but no matter what side of the fence you are on, the gospel must be proclaimed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

jmharris23 said:


> Personally, I don't see how Calvinism or the doctrine of predestination hurts the spread of the gospel, nor do I see that it lessens the motivation of the believer to spread the gospel.
> 
> Calvinism and it's doctrines are an explanation of how people come to God, but no matter what side of the fence you are on, the gospel must be proclaimed.



I tend to agree with you. Some Christians believe free will is necessary to answer the call. If you don't have the freedom to choose then you can't have the freedom to believe. One must have this freedom to BELIEVE Jesus died for there sins. Then one must have the freedom to repent.
Calvinist see giving man a choice takes away from Gods free gift of grace. By giving man a choice, man becomes part of the salvation process.
I must admit it is complicated, How does a Christian make a CHOICE and CHOOSE what to believe?


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> How did God open your eye's? Was someone preaching the gospel to you? Were you reading scripture?



I was looking at a tree.


----------



## jmharris23

My understanding of Scripture is that there is no such thing as free will. 

Man is either a slave to self, or a slave to Christ, but either way, something guides his decision making process. He's never completely free, even if he thinks he is.


----------



## gordon 2

My understanding of predestination is that the folk in Peter, Paul and Mary's time and beyond were predestined to be redeemed as per biblical prophecy. Of course to accept this is a choice.

Also, in the mire of myself, I have a problem with thinking that in Christ I am not made free. And the problem is thinking that I'm a slave to God! someone that I am in a faith relationship with!

That I am determined by choice to be under the authority of my creator, if you wish to call me a slave to one and I know myself to be a servant to another, have I not put my slavery behind in one at least?

 To serve is a choice and we serve in works, and works are a choice. Before my choice to become a servant to one, I was a slave to another--knowing that I sinned or not! My capacity to chose to do good or sin was atrophied before redemption. But even then my concious said to me I had choices.

Christ has given the freedom to fully chose for myself. My integrity is not bound in the shackles I might have had, and had I had these, in Christ they are now cast away! 

But now in Christ, being redeemed, my motivations are not from a master to his slave, rather our motivations are for two servants, the one I hope to become and the one that predestined me to redemption which is my example. In Him I am free with the possibility of many  grand choices to serve in decipleship-- or not to-- which was not the case when I was even the unwilling and rebelious property of another.

My relationship with my Lord is not that He is my master. My relationship is one of loving friendship. He describes Himself to me as a servant, who frees people for His love and justice, and that is how we proceed. And it is in His love and justice that I can know Him as my Lord. And these are all choices I have made because Jesus provided I could make them, whereas before redemption my choices were very limited.

My .02cents.


----------



## Ronnie T

If Peter taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it.

If Paul taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it even more.

If James taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it completely and totally.

But so far I have not found it.


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> If Peter taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it.
> 
> If Paul taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it even more.
> 
> If James taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it completely and totally.
> 
> But so far I have not found it.



Amen! Case closed. Now lets do good.


----------



## jmharris23

Ronnie T said:


> If Peter taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it.
> 
> If Paul taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it even more.
> 
> If James taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it completely and totally.
> 
> But so far I have not found it.



I have, its ok though….we still believe that Jesus died on the cross, that he rose from the dead, that he saves sinners, and that we all ought proclaim the gospel whenever and however we can so that men might come to him!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe one is free until this happens:

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ. And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.


----------



## hummerpoo

I'm not sure just how helpful it would be, but suggest a study of everything available on the word "doulos", then use the knowledge gained when the word is encountered in Bible Study for a couple of years.  This activity won't address the question of "predestination" directly, but rather clearify our relationship with our Savior, which then informs our view of how we arrived at that relationship.  Might help, might not.

The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon

 Strong's Number:   1401    
Original Word Word Origin 
douloß from (1210) 
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry 
Doulos 2:261,182 
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech 
doo'-los    Noun  

 Definition 
a slave, bondman, man of servile condition 
a slave 
metaph., one who gives himself up to another's will those whose service is used by Christ in extending and advancing his cause among men 
devoted to another to the disregard of one's own interests
a servant, attendant


 NAS Word Usage - Total: 141 
bond-servant 11, bond-servants 12, bondslave 3, bondslaves 8, both men and women 8, servants 1, slave 58, slave's 1, slaves 39


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> If Peter taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it.
> 
> If Paul taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it even more.
> 
> If James taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it completely and totally.
> 
> But so far I have not found it.



Ronnie, I'm not certain of your meaning, but I don't think many, if any, would say that there is a total lack of will involved in conversion.  The divergence usually comes from the question of whether or not God can, or does, control man's will, does it not?

I'm have no desire to again open the question, only to clarify what the question is.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ. And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.

The terrible thing of believing freewill ends at salvation is we still sin. Thus we figure "I must not be saved after all." When we don't get rich and we still get sick, we really start believing we were never saved.

Free will believers know why we still sin. We also know we have an advocate.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> I was looking at a tree.



????????The tree made you believe in Jesus?


----------



## gordon 2

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> ????????The tree made you believe in Jesus?



His looking at a tree is a very good answer, especially if the tree was  in flames and the flames did not consume it!

Once, a long time ago, I was recovering from a nervous breakdown. I had difficulty concentrating and reading was a bit difficult. I also saw a tree at that time. 

Some of us are illiterate at some periods in our lives for many reasons, some of us always will be illiterate--nevertheless God shows up, not only within scripture, but also within anything He likes.


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> If Peter taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it.
> 
> If Paul taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it even more.
> 
> If James taught Calvinism, predestination, and total lack of will in his letters to Christians, then I believe in it completely and totally.
> 
> But so far I have not found it.





Artfuldodger said:


> Gal 2:20
> I am crucified with Christ. And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.
> 
> The terrible thing of believing freewill ends at salvation is we still sin. Thus we figure "I must not be saved after all." When we don't get rich and we still get sick, we really start believing we were never saved.
> 
> Free will believers know why we still sin. We also know we have an advocate.



Paul's letter to the Galatian churches is a good example to look at.  In your above verse, Paul didn't say:  "You" have been crucified with Christ therefore Christ rules and directs everything spiritual in you."

Paul said "I" have been.........

Why did Paul write this letter to these churches?  Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel

These Christians were using their God given ability to make decisions, and in their use of this ability, they were doing things other than God's will.

In chapter 3 Paul chastises them for their willful actions of mind and heart.  1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?


Now chapter 4.  4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.

*Some would point to the above verse in Chapter 4 as verifying that we are all "controlled" by the Spirit.  But Paul has already made it clear that wasn't the case in Galatia.

Galatians 4:12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, 


Now chapter 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

gordon 2 said:


> His looking at a tree is a very good answer, especially if the tree was  in flames and the flames did not consume it!
> 
> Once, a long time ago, I was recovering from a nervous breakdown. I had difficulty concentrating and reading was a bit difficult. I also saw a tree at that time.
> 
> Some of us are illiterate at some periods in our lives for many reasons, some of us always will be illiterate--nevertheless God shows up, not only within scripture, but also within anything He likes.



So...........you think he had an experience like Moses had when God spoke to him through the burning bush?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Paul's letter to the Galatian churches is a good example to look at.  In your above verse, Paul didn't say:  "You" have been crucified with Christ therefore Christ rules and directs everything spiritual in you."
> 
> Paul said "I" have been.........
> 
> Why did Paul write this letter to these churches?  Gal 1:6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel
> 
> These Christians were using their God given ability to make decisions, and in their use of this ability, they were doing things other than God's will.
> 
> In chapter 3 Paul chastises them for their willful actions of mind and heart.  1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? 2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? 4 Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
> 
> 
> Now chapter 4.  4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
> 
> *Some would point to the above verse in Chapter 4 as verifying that we are all "controlled" by the Spirit.  But Paul has already made it clear that wasn't the case in Galatia.
> 
> Galatians 4:12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am,
> 
> 
> Now chapter 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
> 
> 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?
> 
> 13 For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh
> 
> 16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.



That's a very good explaination for free will not ending at salvation. 

Now chapter 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

A good verse talking about returning to a different Gospel.


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> Gal 2:20
> I am crucified with Christ. And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.
> 
> The terrible thing of believing freewill ends at salvation is we still sin. Thus we figure "I must not be saved after all." When we don't get rich and we still get sick, we really start believing we were never saved.
> 
> Free will believers know why we still sin. We also know we have an advocate.



Art...

Never heard of one arguing that free will ends at salvation...usually the other way around.  Why do some say this?  Because, before salvation...we are dead in our sins.

After salvation...we have the Holy Spirit inside of us...and we are spiritually alive.  God never puts any temptation that we can't overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Art...
> 
> Never heard of one arguing that free will ends at salvation...usually the other way around.  Why do some say this?  Because, before salvation...we are dead in our sins.
> 
> After salvation...we have the Holy Spirit inside of us...and we are spiritually alive.  God never puts any temptation that we can't overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit.



1 Corinthians 10:13 
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

Yep.  Though God doesn't tempt us, He does provide us a way to refuse any temptation, whether we take that which God provides or not.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Art...
> 
> Never heard of one arguing that free will ends at salvation...usually the other way around.  Why do some say this?  Because, before salvation...we are dead in our sins.
> 
> After salvation...we have the Holy Spirit inside of us...and we are spiritually alive.  God never puts any temptation that we can't overcome with the help of the Holy Spirit.



Maybe a better way of saying it is "your free will doesn't matter after salvation." 

I've always considered OSAS as free will ending at salvation. If God completely takes over your life in every respect, then one would not have free will.
But as we just discussed in Paul's letters, how did the Churches do what they were doing? Even returning to the Yoke of Slavery.


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> ????????The tree made you believe in Jesus?



You suggested that your "how" question should be responded to with an activity ... so I did.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> You suggested that your "how" question should be responded to with an activity ... so I did.



My original question was:

"How did God open your eye's? Was someone preaching the gospel to you? Were you reading scripture?"

It was in response to RJ's statement"

"No reason to get angry about it. Or am I just mis-reading your emotion?

To answer your questions...of course...I great commission. Why? Because God tells me to. Same reason I pray.

But when I thank God for my salvation, it isn't because of my own doing, but thanking Him for opening up my eyes...for His work in me.
Gal 2:20
I am crucified with Christ. And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me. 


Oh...and as far as the whosoever...context and orignal language is key to understand that verse. But, I guess....that is the key to all Biblical exegesis."

Now it seems to me that you agree with RJ's theology. If this is correct I ask you. How did God open up your eyes? What made you believe. I assumed in RJ's case he was listening to the gospel being preached. For most people this seems to be the case.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> No reason to get angry about it.  Or am I just mis-reading your emotion?
> 
> To answer your questions...of course...I great commission.  Why? Because God tells me to.  Same reason I pray.
> 
> But when I thank God for my salvation, it isn't because of my own doing, but thanking Him for opening up my eyes...for His work in me.
> 
> Gal 2:20
> I am crucified with Christ.  And it is no longer I who lives..but Christ who lives in me.
> 
> 
> Oh...and as far as the whosoever...context and orignal language is key to understand that verse.  But, I guess....that is the key to all Biblical exegesis.



So........by the above statement in red, are you saying that the bible is flawed? That when it was interpreted to English it wasn't done correctly? This would lead me to another question. Did God predestine this to happen so that only people who can read and understand Greek would know what the scriptures actually say?


----------



## 1222DANO

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> So........by the above statement in red, are you saying that the bible is flawed? That when it was interpreted to English it wasn't done correctly? This would lead me to another question. Did God predestine this to happen so that only people who can read and understand Greek would know what the scriptures actually say?




The bible isn't flawed, its just gotta be viewed in a more open,true to yourself sense. The ones who read to much in each word and place it on others will be lost. i like to view it or read it as it pertains to my world around me. i'm no expert to each their own but If my KJV reads it and i let it speak to my own heart then i have done what was intended,  its my own personal  word.. it doesn't apply to judging the world or anyone around you. 

This is my own opinion.


----------



## gordon 2

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> So...........you think he had an experience like Moses had when God spoke to him through the burning bush?



With God all things are possible. The burning bush experience is not unique. That it is an experience like Moses, of that I don't know.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

gordon 2 said:


> With God all things are possible. The burning bush experience is not unique. That it is an experience like Moses, of that I don't know.



Well, that is one thing we can agree on. With God all things are possible but I'd still like to know. Gordon, what made you believe? I would also like to know why this is such a hard question for Reformed/Calvinist to answer?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Well, that is one thing we can agree on. With God all things are possible but I'd still like to know. Gordon, what made you believe? I would also like to know why this is such a hard question for Reformed/Calvinist to answer?



I believe they would explain it that we don't know who the elect are so we must witness to everyone. That's the way most people are called to the Gospel. either hearing or reading the Word.
What I don't understand is, doesnt' this put man back into the equation? Have we reached all of the elected in every little village on every island?


----------



## rjcruiser

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> So........by the above statement in red, are you saying that the bible is flawed? That when it was interpreted to English it wasn't done correctly? This would lead me to another question. Did God predestine this to happen so that only people who can read and understand Greek would know what the scriptures actually say?



Fender...it wasn't me...just like Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, so the Holy Spirit called to me and raised me from being spiritually dead.

Now to your question about the Bible being flawed..no.  That being said, the English language has its flaws.  

To, two or too....which is it?  



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> I would also like to know why this is such a hard question for Reformed/Calvinist to answer?



 seems like the root of the issue is in your disdain for those who hold to the reformed theological position.  



Artfuldodger said:


> I believe they would explain it that we don't know who the elect are so we must witness to everyone. That's the way most people are called to the Gospel. either hearing or reading the Word.
> What I don't understand is, doesnt' this put man back into the equation? Have we reached all of the elected in every little village on every island?



Absolutely it puts man into the equation.  Man is commanded to preach the Word.  That being said, if we don't...the very rocks will cry out.

Also, in Acts 14:16-17 God tells us that nature gives witness to all mankind.


_In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” _



Lastly, we will know that all the elect have been saved when Christ returns to take those He has called home.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Fender...it wasn't me...just like Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, so the Holy Spirit called to me and raised me from being spiritually dead.
> 
> Now to your question about the Bible being flawed..no.  That being said, the English language has its flaws.
> 
> To, two or too....which is it?
> 
> 
> 
> seems like the root of the issue is in your disdain for those who hold to the reformed theological position.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely it puts man into the equation.  Man is commanded to preach the Word.  That being said, if we don't...the very rocks will cry out.
> 
> Also, in Acts 14:16-17 God tells us that nature gives witness to all mankind.
> 
> 
> _In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” _
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, we will know that all the elect have been saved when Christ returns to take those He has called home.




All the more reason to heed scriptures like the following.

2 Peter 1:10 
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> Fender...it wasn't me...just like Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, so the Holy Spirit called to me and raised me from being spiritually dead.
> 
> Now to your question about the Bible being flawed..no.  That being said, the English language has its flaws.
> 
> To, two or too....which is it?
> 
> 
> 
> seems like the root of the issue is in your disdain for those who hold to the reformed theological position.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely it puts man into the equation.  Man is commanded to preach the Word.  That being said, if we don't...the very rocks will cry out.
> 
> Also, in Acts 14:16-17 God tells us that nature gives witness to all mankind.
> 
> 
> _In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” _
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, we will know that all the elect have been saved when Christ returns to take those He has called home.



No, I have no distain for anyone who holds a reformed theological position. I just don't understand what the big secret is? Everyone that I know was under the influence of the gospel when they were saved. I feel that the word of God is the key. I'm sorry if my questions have offended you.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> Fender...it wasn't me...just like Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, so the Holy Spirit called to me and raised me from being spiritually dead.
> 
> Now to your question about the Bible being flawed..no.  That being said, the English language has its flaws.
> 
> To, two or too....which is it?
> 
> 
> 
> seems like the root of the issue is in your disdain for those who hold to the reformed theological position.
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely it puts man into the equation.  Man is commanded to preach the Word.  That being said, if we don't...the very rocks will cry out.
> 
> Also, in Acts 14:16-17 God tells us that nature gives witness to all mankind.
> 
> 
> _In past generations he allowed all the nations to walk in their own ways. 17 Yet he did not leave himself without witness, for he did good by giving you rains from heaven and fruitful seasons, satisfying your hearts with food and gladness.” _
> 
> 
> 
> Lastly, we will know that all the elect have been saved when Christ returns to take those He has called home.



Do you believe English Bibles have flaws?

Does "nature gives witness" mean everyone already knows about Jesus?

Does God need us to tell the last elect or will nature tell them? Will there come a time when no more elect will be born so that we can catch up otherwise with people being born daily, I don't know how we'll ever have a last elect? We need about a generation born of no elect to make sure all have been elected.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Does God need us to tell the last elect or will nature tell them? Will there come a time when no more elect will be born so that we can catch up otherwise with people being born daily, I don't know how we'll ever have a last elect? We need about a generation born of no elect to make sure all have been elected.



While talking to yourself about this issue, you might remind yourself that God does not require our assistance in ordering the universe, nor could we comprehend.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> While talking to yourself about this issue, you might remind yourself that God does not require our assistance in ordering the universe, nor could we comprehend.



While I agree, he does require our obedience.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> While I agree, he does require our obedience.



Which, of course, has nothing to do with how God will handle the "last elect".


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Which, of course, has nothing to do with how God will handle the "last elect".



Obedience has everything to do with it. We are commanded to spread the Gospel. Witness to the world. How else will they receive the Word? They need to be given a readable Bible or at least told the Good News.
It is our mission, command, and part of 
God's plan that we deliever the Good News thus to obey and be obedient.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Obedience has everything to do with it. We are commanded to spread the Gospel. Witness to the world. How else will they receive the Word? They need to be given a readable Bible or at least told the Good News.
> It is our mission, command, and part of
> God's plan that we deliever the Good News thus to obey and be obedient.



Taking obedience seriously is a good thing.  Thinking that God is made us QC manager, and that the outcome is dependent upon us is quite another thing.


----------



## 1222DANO

Are we saying a souls destination is determined by Obedience?


----------



## Artfuldodger

1222DANO said:


> Are we saying a souls destination is determined by Obedience?



I don't know any other way the world will hear about Jesus unless we tell them. We are definitely getting into some deep thoughts when we try to figure out if it is our fault for not delievering the Good News to the whole world.
Can we assume there have been no elected souls to ever die in small remote village? Did they learn of Jesus' sacrafice from nature? 
Why is God waiting for the last elect to be saved when it is he doing the saving?
I don't know and "no, God didn't run it by me." I can only look for answers in the scripture. If they are not there, then I'll not have an answer.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Like someone else said, have any of you learned about Jesus any other way than from his Word? I don't know why God thought it was a good idea to use man to spread the Gospel or if it is the only way. I do know that it is part of his plan the we  do spread the Gospel.
I do know that Jesus is the only way.


----------



## Ronnie T

What is the meaning of this verse?

2 Peter 1:10 
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 

Or is it simply a distracting verse that should be set aside?

What is it's message to all of us? Break it down.

Wherefore the rather, brethren, =
give diligence to make= 
your calling and election sure:= 
for if ye do these things,= 
ye shall never fall:=


----------



## Ronnie T

We often hear the words "free will", but we won't find it expressed that way in God's Word for us.  There, we find the word "obedience".


----------



## HawgJawl

In order for the terms "obedience" or "disobedience" to apply to a situation, does it not require the freedom to choose between the two?


----------



## 1222DANO

Did Kings and Queens of England continue to print the Bible or who kept it in circulation?

Obedience and disobedience would only apply to a set of rules that have been applied. i'm assuming...


----------



## HawgJawl

1222DANO said:


> Obedience and disobedience would only apply to a set of rules that have been applied. i'm assuming...



a set of rules that have been applied to subjects who have the ability to choose to obey the rules or disobey the rules, hence "freewill"


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

1222DANO said:


> Did Kings and Queens of England continue to print the Bible or who kept it in circulation?
> 
> Obedience and disobedience would only apply to a set of rules that have been applied. i'm assuming...



Who makes you obedient or disobedient? If there is no free will then when you are disobedient are you saying God made you do it. Wouldn't that make God the author of sin?


----------



## HawgJawl

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Who makes you obedient or disobedient? If there is no free will then when you are disobedient are you saying God made you do it. Wouldn't that make God the author of sin?



If God makes you do whatever you do, there is no such thing as obedience or disobedience.  There is only what God makes you do.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> If God makes you do whatever you do, there is no such thing as obedience or disobedience.  There is only what God makes you do.



Ronnie's point is well taken.  I think the Word says we're either a slave to sin, or a bondservant to Christ.  As Paul said, I am crucified in Christ Jesus, and it is not I who live but Christ in me.

If you can find where Jesus spoke of free will, please let me know.

We have no choice in that we are born, and have no choice in that we will die.

We have no choice in that judgment was long ago entered on mankind, requiring that every knee will bend down and every tongue will confess Jesus as Lord and Savoir.  

Man walks the crust of the earth, knowing by all the evidence within nature that he had nothing whatever to do with the creation of the planet, the sky, the universe.

A few degrees off its axis, this ball stops sustaining life.  A little less gravity...a little chromosonal shift... 

Like minature kings, though, we think we're in control. we have all this freedom of choice.  ME, ME ME.  Isn't it illusory at best?

Pharaoh certainly thought that he was in control.  He thought he could game the Lord, tell God what's what.


----------



## rjcruiser

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> No, I have no distain for anyone who holds a reformed theological position. I just don't understand what the big secret is? Everyone that I know was under the influence of the gospel when they were saved. I feel that the word of God is the key. I'm sorry if my questions have offended you.



So was that influence of the gospel in accordance with your will?

You call it gospel...I call it the Holy Spirit.  Call it what you want...but it was done by a force outside of me.



Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe English Bibles have flaws?



Flaws is maybe too strong of a word.  I'd say limitations.  Know them and you'll be much better off.  And that is where knowing the original text..or having a Hebrew/Greek dictionary/study Bible is helpful.  So much more can be gained by it.



Artfuldodger said:


> Does "nature gives witness" mean everyone already knows about Jesus?.



It means that they are without excuse....and yes, I believe that they know in their hearts that their is a God.  Do they know about Jesus?  Probably not, but they'll have a desire to find the truth...and the Lord will show them the truth.



Artfuldodger said:


> Does God need us to tell the last elect or will nature tell them? Will there come a time when no more elect will be born so that we can catch up otherwise with people being born daily, I don't know how we'll ever have a last elect? We need about a generation born of no elect to make sure all have been elected.



God does not need us.

Really?  There will be an end.  Revelation tells us that. 

Why can't it just cut-off?  Those who die during the tribulation that are too young to be accountable would be covered imho.  But...that drifts into the age of accountability thing...and I don't want to dive into another topic.



1222DANO said:


> Are we saying a souls destination is determined by Obedience?



No.  We can either obey or not obey.  But no matter what we do, God's will does not need our cooperation to occur.



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know any other way the world will hear about Jesus unless we tell them. We are definitely getting into some deep thoughts when we try to figure out if it is our fault for not delievering the Good News to the whole world.
> Can we assume there have been no elected souls to ever die in small remote village? Did they learn of Jesus' sacrafice from nature?
> Why is God waiting for the last elect to be saved when it is he doing the saving?
> I don't know and "no, God didn't run it by me." I can only look for answers in the scripture. If they are not there, then I'll not have an answer.



God is patient.  Scripture tells us this.



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Who makes you obedient or disobedient? If there is no free will then when you are disobedient are you saying God made you do it. Wouldn't that make God the author of sin?



You are disobedient because you choose to be so.  We are all dead to our sins before salvation.  We can only choose to be evil as that is our nature.  Only God can make us alive to do otherwise.

And no, God is not the author of sin.  Satan is.


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Like minature kings, though, we think we're in control. we have all this freedom of choice.  ME, ME ME.  Isn't it illusory at best?
> 
> Pharaoh certainly thought that he was in control.  He thought he could game the Lord, tell God what's what.



Free will and freedom are two totally different things.
Free will and control are two totally different things.  Inmates have free will to choose if they will obey the rules or rebel against the rules.  They can voluntarily comply or it will be forced upon them.  Their freedom is limited.  Their control is limited.  But they still have the free will to be obedient or disobedient.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> Free will and freedom are two totally different things.
> Free will and control are two totally different things.  Inmates have free will to choose if they will obey the rules or rebel against the rules.  They can voluntarily comply or it will be forced upon them.  Their freedom is limited.  Their control is limited.  But they still have the free will to be obedient or disobedient.



A slave has free will? 

A prisoner who chooses to riot, or not -- that is your concept of a will that is unhinged from constraint, free, is it? Hmm.  Pretty good analogy if you ask me.

Purchased with blood, one in Christ has free will?  

Tell me, where is your freedom and how does it manifest?  
(The pronoun "your" not referring to any one in particular, dear reader.) 

(A creator muses, perhaps: Yes, little pharaoh boy, sit on my knee and tell me how free you are to decide to reject me or not. I am here now and at your end now.  I am in the present across the continuums of space and time, then and now, the alpha and the omega.

POW. 

Here now, let me help you with your little minds that have blown.)

Yes, tell me reader how you freely willed yourself into being, or freely willed the form and content of your world around you, or your underground railroad that will lead you and yours from this promised judgment.  

Oh that is correct, you've defined your freedom narrowly to a choice...what was it, to riot or not to riot.  Perhaps you win this discussion.  Or not.

Perhaps the Creator continues to muse: (Yes, well look around.  When you're done with the big decision, rioting or not rioting, you'll still be in my place, on my clock, with my appointment.  And p.s., I already know what you'll do and guess what, it will glorify Me.)

Peace out.


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> A slave has free will?
> 
> A prisoner who chooses to riot, or not -- that is your concept of a will that is unhinged from constraint, free, is it? Hmm.  Pretty good analogy if you ask me.
> 
> Purchased with blood, one in Christ has free will?
> 
> Tell me, where is your freedom and how does it manifest?
> (The pronoun "your" not referring to any one in particular, dear reader.)
> 
> (A creator muses, perhaps: Yes, little pharaoh boy, sit on my knee and tell me how free you are to decide to reject me or not. I am here now and at your end now.  I am in the present across the continuums of space and time, then and now, the alpha and the omega.
> 
> POW.
> 
> Here now, let me help you with your little minds that have blown.)
> 
> Yes, tell me reader how you freely willed yourself into being, or freely willed the form and content of your world around you, or your underground railroad that will lead you and yours from this promised judgment.
> 
> Oh that is correct, you've defined your freedom narrowly to a choice...what was it, to riot or not to riot.  Perhaps you win this discussion.  Or not.
> 
> Perhaps the Creator continues to muse: (Yes, well look around.  When you're done with the big decision, rioting or not rioting, you'll still be in my place, on my clock, with my appointment.  And p.s., I already know what you'll do and guess what, it will glorify Me.)
> 
> Peace out.



No man has complete freedom, unhinged from constraint.

It has nothing to do with willing yourself into being or the form and content of the world around you.

Having the freedom to choose from the options presented is completely different than having complete freedom, control, or power.

Think of all those people throughout history who, when cornered, chose to die fighting rather than surrender.


----------



## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> We often hear the words "free will", but we won't find it expressed that way in God's Word for us.  There, we find the word "obedience".



This is one of those post that makes me think. Thanks for sharing some wisdom here.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> No man has complete freedom, unhinged from constraint.
> 
> Think of all those people throughout history who, when cornered, chose to die fighting rather than surrender.



Another apt analogy, I think. 

It accurately sums up the mindset of some a few floors down from this forum, I think.  Did a cornered one who thought he chose to die fighting actually do much different from the one who thought he chose to die withering?  More to the point, perhaps, could either choose not to die...once cornered?

Out here east of Eden, aren't we all born cornered?  What does it change if I die fighting or withered? I have still died.

That ultimate endgame changes only and eternally in and through Christ Jesus and His finished work on the cross.  It is futile to choose otherwise...if choice ever really exists.


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Another apt analogy, I think.
> 
> It accurately sums up the mindset of some a few floors down from this forum, I think.  Did a cornered one who thought he chose to die fighting actually do much different from the one who thought he chose to die withering?  More to the point, perhaps, could either choose not to die...once cornered?
> 
> Out here east of Eden, aren't we all born cornered?  What does it change if I die fighting or withered? I have still died.
> 
> That ultimate endgame changes only and eternally in and through Christ Jesus and His finished work on the cross.  It is futile to choose otherwise...if choice ever really exists.



God has complete control over what options are available to choose from and the consequences of those options.  It does not diminish God's power for Him to set options in front of men and allow them to choose.  If they choose the "best" option, good results normally follow, it is pleasing to God, and it is called obedience.  If they choose a " bad" option, they suffer any negative consequences from that choice, it is not pleasing to God, and it is called disobedience.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> God has complete control over what options are available to choose from and the consequences of those options.  It does not diminish God's power for Him to set options in front of men and allow them to choose.  If they choose the "best" option, good results normally follow, it is pleasing to God, and it is called obedience.  If they choose a " bad" option, they suffer any negative consequences from that choice, it is not pleasing to God, and it is called disobedience.



What will Job say to this if I am able to discuss it with him?


----------



## Ronnie T

BT Charlie said:


> A slave has free will?
> 
> A prisoner who chooses to riot, or not -- that is your concept of a will that is unhinged from constraint, free, is it? Hmm.  Pretty good analogy if you ask me.
> 
> Purchased with blood, one in Christ has free will?
> 
> Tell me, where is your freedom and how does it manifest?
> (The pronoun "your" not referring to any one in particular, dear reader.)
> 
> (A creator muses, perhaps: Yes, little pharaoh boy, sit on my knee and tell me how free you are to decide to reject me or not. I am here now and at your end now.  I am in the present across the continuums of space and time, then and now, the alpha and the omega.
> 
> POW.
> 
> Here now, let me help you with your little minds that have blown.)
> 
> Yes, tell me reader how you freely willed yourself into being, or freely willed the form and content of your world around you, or your underground railroad that will lead you and yours from this promised judgment.
> 
> Oh that is correct, you've defined your freedom narrowly to a choice...what was it, to riot or not to riot.  Perhaps you win this discussion.  Or not.
> 
> Perhaps the Creator continues to muse: (Yes, well look around.  When you're done with the big decision, rioting or not rioting, you'll still be in my place, on my clock, with my appointment.  And p.s., I already know what you'll do and guess what, it will glorify Me.)
> 
> Peace out.



"A slave have free will?"

I just had a thought....... (from the Lord, or not).....
Does a slave actually have free will?  Yes he does.  But he will be punished if he acts upon it.  His master 'demands' certain things, and the slave would be wise to obey the master.  To do otherwise would cost him his life, maybe.

Now exactly what that has to do with Christianity I'm not getting into.


----------



## ambush80

Ronnie T said:


> "A slave have free will?"
> 
> I just had a thought....... (from the Lord, or not).....
> Does a slave actually have free will?  Yes he does.  But he will be punished if he acts upon it.  His master 'demands' certain things, and the slave would be wise to obey the master.  To do otherwise would cost him his life, maybe.
> 
> Now exactly what that has to do with Christianity I'm not getting into.




Yeah......being a slave is way less desirable than being a sheep.


----------



## BT Charlie

Ronnie T said:


> "A slave have free will?"
> 
> I just had a thought....... (from the Lord, or not).....
> Does a slave actually have free will?  Yes he does.  But he will be punished if he acts upon it.  His master 'demands' certain things, and the slave would be wise to obey the master.  To do otherwise would cost him his life, maybe.
> 
> Now exactly what that has to do with Christianity I'm not getting into.





A wise, wise, man ... on all counts.

I kind of like Hawg's analogies : a prisoner who chooses to riot, or not; humans cornered, electing to fight to the death, rather than surrender.  

And of course the slave, to obey the master, or not...despite that in either "choice" man thinks he has wrested from the Lord for his very own...there, right there...God already sits in the dimension we call the future, waiting, knowing which choice we'd make...as he 
has since he started the clock of time.  English syntax can't get verbs of past, present, future to line up in explanation of this.

Is that even a choice, then?

Yet, Ronnie, if I say I don't sin...the truth is not in me.  And truthfully if...no, when... I sin ... well, I have indeed chosen, haven't I?

So dimly we glimpse what will be revealed to either and 
both sides of such "election" and "free will" debates. 

I hope God is magnified and glorified by the discussion.  Thanks for your steady hand, Ronnie.


----------



## hummerpoo

If God has complete control over the available options, the only question left is omniscience.
If God knows what choice will be made, the “free” choice has been determined by God by the limited options available.
If God does not know what choice will be made, well, join the open theism crowd.
Omnipotence is probably the most obvious concept of scripture, and omnipotence without omniscience doesn’t work.


----------



## BT Charlie

hummerpoo said:


> If God has complete control over the available options, the only question left is omniscience.
> If God knows what choice will be made, the “free” choice has been determined by God by the limited options available.
> If God does not know what choice will be made, well, join the open theism crowd.
> Omnipotence is probably the most obvious concept of scripture, and omnipotence without omniscience doesn’t work.



Yes... selection ... to us... who are neither omnipotent nor omniscient.   Not having even a choice in our birth, our kind, the planet we inhabit, the physical laws that sustain and confine, control us... And the universe, firgettaboutit.  The number of our days...left to us? Not really, for those even like me who conceived human intent and purposed such control.

Yet if I say I do not sin, the truth is not in me.  How do you explain the sin...to the robot, or obedient bondservant?


----------



## Artfuldodger

everyone who confesses, everyone who call upon, everyone who believes, whoever abides, whoever is thirsty, run to obtain, fight the good fight, your faith has saved you, 

This is an interesting link that describes the different types of elections with many Bible verses. The Jews were elected and then the Gentiles. The Gentiles were predestined by God from the foundation of the earth to become His elect by grace in what the Apostle Paul calls the mystery. It talks of election of individual persons for duties according to God's will using Moses and Paul as examples. This might explain why we no longer have prophets.(my thoughts)
The he explains the election of Jesus. Jesus Christ was elected by God to take away the sin of the world.
But then he gets to individual election not determining salvation.

http://www.biblelife.org/election.htm


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> So was that influence of the gospel in accordance with your will?
> 
> You call it gospel...I call it the Holy Spirit.  Call it what you want...but it was done by a force outside of me.
> 
> 
> Flaws is maybe too strong of a word.  I'd say limitations.  Know them and you'll be much better off.  And that is where knowing the original text..or having a Hebrew/Greek dictionary/study Bible is helpful.  So much more can be gained by it.
> 
> 
> 
> It means that they are without excuse....and yes, I believe that they know in their hearts that their is a God.  Do they know about Jesus?  Probably not, but they'll have a desire to find the truth...and the Lord will show them the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> God does not need us.
> 
> Really?  There will be an end.  Revelation tells us that.
> 
> Why can't it just cut-off?  Those who die during the tribulation that are too young to be accountable would be covered imho.  But...that drifts into the age of accountability thing...and I don't want to dive into another topic.
> 
> 
> 
> No.  We can either obey or not obey.  But no matter what we do, God's will does not need our cooperation to occur.
> 
> 
> 
> God is patient.  Scripture tells us this.
> 
> 
> 
> You are disobedient because you choose to be so.  We are all dead to our sins before salvation.  We can only choose to be evil as that is our nature.  Only God can make us alive to do otherwise.
> 
> And no, God is not the author of sin.  Satan is.



Acts:2
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

As you can see by this passage from Acts chapter 2, there is an order to which things happen. Peter and the apostles were preaching the Pentecost and the "people were cut to the heart". The apostles were preaching the word of God. The people did not know what to do, they asked "Brothers what shall we do?"(If they were of the elect, they would not have had to ask this question ) To this Peter replied "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So as you can see, the Holy Spirit comes after you believe and it is completely different than the gospel.


----------



## Ronnie T

BT Charlie said:


> A wise, wise, man ... on all counts.
> 
> I kind of like Hawg's analogies : a prisoner who chooses to riot, or not; humans cornered, electing to fight to the death, rather than surrender.
> 
> And of course the slave, to obey the master, or not...despite that in either "choice" man thinks he has wrested from the Lord for his very own...there, right there...God already sits in the dimension we call the future, waiting, knowing which choice we'd make...as he
> has since he started the clock of time.  English syntax can't get verbs of past, present, future to line up in explanation of this.
> 
> Is that even a choice, then?
> 
> Yet, Ronnie, if I say I don't sin...the truth is not in me.  And truthfully if...no, when... I sin ... well, I have indeed chosen, haven't I?
> 
> So dimly we glimpse what will be revealed to either and
> both sides of such "election" and "free will" debates.
> 
> I hope God is magnified and glorified by the discussion.  Thanks for your steady hand, Ronnie.



As you, I'm super satisfied to leave it all in God's hands.
Shew, I'm still trying to keep my meds straight...... which to take in the morning, which to take at bed time.
Thankfully, God is a patient master to us all.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> So was that influence of the gospel in accordance with your will?
> 
> You call it gospel...I call it the Holy Spirit.  Call it what you want...but it was done by a force outside of me.
> 
> 
> 
> Flaws is maybe too strong of a word.  I'd say limitations.  Know them and you'll be much better off.  And that is where knowing the original text..or having a Hebrew/Greek dictionary/study Bible is helpful.  So much more can be gained by it.
> 
> 
> 
> It means that they are without excuse....and yes, I believe that they know in their hearts that their is a God.  Do they know about Jesus?  Probably not, but they'll have a desire to find the truth...and the Lord will show them the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> God does not need us.
> 
> Really?  There will be an end.  Revelation tells us that.
> 
> Why can't it just cut-off?  Those who die during the tribulation that are too young to be accountable would be covered imho.  But...that drifts into the age of accountability thing...and I don't want to dive into another topic.
> 
> 
> 
> No.  We can either obey or not obey.  But no matter what we do, God's will does not need our cooperation to occur.
> 
> 
> 
> God is patient.  Scripture tells us this.
> 
> 
> 
> You are disobedient because you choose to be so.  We are all dead to our sins before salvation.  We can only choose to be evil as that is our nature.  Only God can make us alive to do otherwise.
> 
> And no, God is not the author of sin.  Satan is.




So.......when one of the "Elect" cannot commit sin?

Brother, you said something earlier about having distain for someone who has a reform theology. This is not the case. Being a Traditional Baptist I am held to the belief that God wants everyone to be saved.


----------



## Ronnie T

We all get sooooooo full of ourselves don't we?
Trying to fully describe God Almighty.
I feel a little silly sometimes.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> So.......when one of the "Elect" cannot commit sin?
> 
> Brother, you said something earlier about having disdain for someone who has a reform theology. This is not the case. Being a Traditional Baptist I am held to the belief that God wants everyone to be saved.



You make some good points and my free will beliefs are closely aligned with yours. Good question about the "Elect" sinning or not sinning. I don't know why we can't ask questions without having a disdain. I get accused of having "disdain" for asking questions all the time. I can't help it, they just pop into my head. I don't mean anything disdain about it. If you don't feel compelled to answer, don't answer. Inquiring minds want to know. I yearn for knowledge. 

Somehow we must balance our ability, need, & requirements of obedience to God's hands and our freedom in Christ. True we have freedom from the yoke of sin but it doesn't remove our obedience requirement. I must agree with Ronnie in trying to describe God almighty. I feel that we all might add to what God has revealed. This could explain some of the differences. 
We can't deny verses about "our faith equals receiving salvation." Our salvation is dependent on our faith.

1 Peter 1:9
for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.

I could find more but if you don't believe in any personal obedience requirement, then having a personal belief, faith, hope, love, assurance, or trust that  Jesus died for your sins is  not a moot point.
And if Jesus did die for our sins and we believe it so, does it really matter why we believe it? Does it have to be our own belief, or our belief made or provoked by God? Does the source of the belief matter? Do some make the choice and others are elected? Once we have our salvation, how do we keep it? Must the free will believers be obedient and the elect believers be obedient by given obedience?
Why does obedience keep coming up if we are saved by grace and nothing else is required?
Why do we have so many verses that say, believe, trust, stand fast, obey, love, forgive, follow, teach, tell, spread, share, etc. Why is the word "if" used so much? If you repent, if you follow my commandments, if you forgive others, if you love & help others.

How is any of this related to the Mystery Paul revealed?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Acts:2
> 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”



Some Elect believers like to use this verse as to why their children are also elected. 
Any thoughts?

Elect believers have elected children and Freewill believers have free will children. Something just doesn't seem right.


----------



## Artfuldodger

And most certainly related to predestination, is our salvation dependent upon our faith? What happens to the predestined believer or the free will believer who loses faith?
I tend to believe that our salvation is based on our belief in, and our faith in Jesus. Beyond that, I'm not sure. If I believe in Jesus, does it matter why? Does my belief have to come from my soul only, to follow John 3:16? 
I must believe, I must repent. We are quick to point out who will not see the Kingdom of God for not repenting of certain sins. We can't say that God does part of salvation without doing all of salvation.
Again what do we say about the person who doesn't repent of a certain lifestyle sin? Does he have a choice or not?
We can't have it both ways.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Some Elect believers like to use this verse as to why their children are also elected.
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Elect believers have elected children and Freewill believers have free will children. Something just doesn't seem right.



I've never heard that.  Can you give a reputable source, I'd like to see what else they say.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> You make some good points and My free will beliefs are closely aligned with yours. Good question about the "Elect" sinning or not sinning. I don't know why we can't ask questions without having a disdain. I get accused of having "disdain" for asking questions all the time. I can't help it, they just pop into my head. I don't mean anything disdain about it. If you don't feel compelled to answer, don't answer. Inquiring minds want to know. I yearn for knowledge.
> 
> Somehow we must balance our ability, need, & requirements to obedience to God's hands or our freedom in Christ. True we have freedom from the yoke of sin but it doesn't remove our obedience requirement. I must agree with Ronnie in trying to describe God almighty. I feel that we all might add to what God has revealed. This could explain some of the differences.
> We can't deny verses about "our faith equals receiving salvation." Our salvation is dependent on our faith.
> 
> 1 Peter 1:9
> for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.
> 
> I could find more but if you don't believe in any personal obedience requirement, then having a personal belief, faith, hope, love, assurance, or trust that  Jesus died for your sins is a not a moot point.
> And if Jesus did die for our sins and we believe it so, does it really matter why we believe it? Does it have to be our own belief or our belief made or provoked by God? Does the source of the belief matter? Do some make the choice and others are elected? Once we have said salvation, how do we keep it? Must the free will believers be obedient and the elect believers be obedient by given obedience?
> Why does obedience keep coming up if we are saved by grace and nothing else is required?
> Why do we have so many verses that say, believe, trust, standfast, obey, love, forgive, follow, teach, tell, spread, share, etc. Why is the word "if" used so much? If you repent, If you follow my commandments, If you forgive others, If you love & help others.
> 
> How is any of this related to the Mystery Paul revealed?


There are sufferings that have hope in them...right there, plain as day like a banner flashing in neon.
Then there are sufferings that are relentless till they produce a fruit of repentance...which then...has a banner of hope in it...flashing neon.

Let patience have its perfect work.
Sometimes, it seems, what you and I are being fashioned to...is everything we would not have wanted, at first...in our own sight.

Funny how often we are simply told to "let"...as in "get out of the way and don't hinder"...instead of "try to make happen".
Makes me consider how predestined the glory of God is to be revealed through Jesus Christ in each member, gunna absolutely be manifest, we can't make it...and we sure don't want to be found as those seeking to hinder the unStoppable.
Seems even they have a role to play...as examples...if nothing else...of what NOT to be.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I've never heard that.  Can you give a reputable source, I'd like to see what else they say.



Which according to the apostolic practice of baptism was to be administered according to the promise to those who believed and their household and not merely to individual believing adults and which, according to the whole testimony of the Scriptures above, requires the baptism of infants (Acts 2:39; Acts 10:44, 47; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:31-34)
http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doct... Inclusion & Baptism/Children_the_Answer.html

Is the teaching taken from Bible where says that 1 beieving spouse sactifies the house, and children will be saved?
Is the belief than that IF Parents have been elected/chosen by God to be saved, than their children are assumed to be elected also?
So that can only assume saved parents have elected kids, while those Parents not saved will not have sanctifing power over them to save? 
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70965

Here it is…
From the Canons of Dort
ARTICLE 17

Since we are to judge of the will of God from His Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature, but in virtue of the covenant of grace, in which they together with the parents are comprehended, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom it pleases God to call out of this life in their infancy (Gen. 17:7; Acts 2:39; 1 Cor. 7:14).


This does say that the children of the elect are elect, that is, the children who die in infancy.  Does any 5 pointer really believe this?  I’m sure they do, but it is simply a theological extrapolation.  Most people who believe infants go to heaven believe so because of an idea of innocence (the child hasn’t sinned).  Of course, if salvation is received through faith, then a child can’t believe.
Frankly, this is simply theological extrapolation.  My wife and I lost our first baby and I can’t honestly say that I KNOW I’ll see him/her in heaven, but I sure hope to.
http://www.backtofaith.com/biblical...elect-are-also-elect-youve-got-to-be-kidding/


----------



## Artfuldodger

If people are "unconditonally elected," that means God has not chosen your children or your grandchildren for salvation by virtue of the fact that He has chosen you for salvation, otherwise their election would be conditional, not unconditional. If you are a Calvinist, you must face up to the fact that there is a very good possibility that God has chosen your children and/or grandchildren for eternal darnation. Your God may be pleased to offer your children no opportunity for mercy or salvation. They may be unchangeably predestined for he11 regardless of anything that you do.
http://www.heavensfamily.org/ss/e_teachings/question-for-calvinist


----------



## Artfuldodger

I don't think it is a part of most Election believers doctrine, but most people who are elected are children of elected parents. Primitive Baptist parents have Primitive Baptist children. Free will parents have free will children.
Most parents who feel God elected them will elect their children. Generations of all faiths go to the same Churches and belong to the same denomination of their parents and Grandparents. I'm not saying this is wrong, just how it is.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Some Elect believers like to use this verse as to why their children are also elected.
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Elect believers have elected children and Freewill believers have free will children. Something just doesn't seem right.





hummerpoo said:


> I've never heard that.  Can you give a reputable source, I'd like to see what else they say.





Artfuldodger said:


> Which according to the apostolic practice of baptism was to be administered according to the promise to those who believed and their household and not merely to individual believing adults and which, according to the whole testimony of the Scriptures above, requires the baptism of infants (Acts 2:39; Acts 10:44, 47; Acts 16:15; Acts 16:31-34)
> http://www.reformedspokane.org/Doct... Inclusion & Baptism/Children_the_Answer.html
> 
> Is the teaching taken from Bible where says that 1 beieving spouse sactifies the house, and children will be saved?
> Is the belief than that IF Parents have been elected/chosen by God to be saved, than their children are assumed to be elected also?
> So that can only assume saved parents have elected kids, while those Parents not saved will not have sanctifing power over them to save?
> http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=70965
> 
> Here it is…
> From the Canons of Dort
> ARTICLE 17
> 
> Since we are to judge of the will of God from His Word, which testifies that the children of believers are holy, not by nature, but in virtue of the covenant of grace, in which they together with the parents are comprehended, godly parents ought not to doubt the election and salvation of their children whom it pleases God to call out of this life in their infancy (Gen. 17:7; Acts 2:39; 1 Cor. 7:14).
> 
> 
> This does say that the children of the elect are elect, that is, the children who die in infancy.  Does any 5 pointer really believe this?  I’m sure they do, but it is simply a theological extrapolation.  Most people who believe infants go to heaven believe so because of an idea of innocence (the child hasn’t sinned).  Of course, if salvation is received through faith, then a child can’t believe.
> Frankly, this is simply theological extrapolation.  My wife and I lost our first baby and I can’t honestly say that I KNOW I’ll see him/her in heaven, but I sure hope to.
> http://www.backtofaith.com/biblical...elect-are-also-elect-youve-got-to-be-kidding/



So now we are talking about "infant death"?

When you said "Freewill believers have free will children", did you then mean to say the babies of free will believing parents who die must have chosen to be saved or they will go to he!!. If your post was talking about infant children, that would be the meaning.

If your post was talking about older offspring, I'm still waiting for a source, other than Anticalvinists projecting there negative suppositions on others.  Or did I miss something?


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> A wise, wise, man ... on all counts.
> 
> I kind of like Hawg's analogies : a prisoner who chooses to riot, or not; humans cornered, electing to fight to the death, rather than surrender.
> 
> And of course the slave, to obey the master, or not...despite that in either "choice" man thinks he has wrested from the Lord for his very own...there, right there...God already sits in the dimension we call the future, waiting, knowing which choice we'd make...as he
> has since he started the clock of time.  English syntax can't get verbs of past, present, future to line up in explanation of this.
> 
> Is that even a choice, then?
> 
> Yet, Ronnie, if I say I don't sin...the truth is not in me.  And truthfully if...no, when... I sin ... well, I have indeed chosen, haven't I?
> 
> So dimly we glimpse what will be revealed to either and
> both sides of such "election" and "free will" debates.
> 
> I hope God is magnified and glorified by the discussion.  Thanks for your steady hand, Ronnie.



It seems like you're viewing the scenario of the choices of a cornered person only in the light of a person rebelling against God.

Consider one of the fathers of the Protestant Movement who was given the choice of recanting his views and living or being burned at the stake for heresy.  Many chose to be burned at the stake instead of recanting their Protestant views.  That was an exercise in free will, absent freedom or control.


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> What will Job say to this if I am able to discuss it with him?



I think the story of Job is an excellent example of a man given the option of choosing to remain committed to God or choosing to turn his back on God.  Job was manipulated by Satan in an attempt to cause Job to choose of his own free will to stop worshiping God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> So now we are talking about "infant death"?
> 
> When you said "Freewill believers have free will children", did you then mean to say the babies of free will believing parents who die must have chosen to be saved or they will go to he!!. If your post was talking about infant children, that would be the meaning.
> 
> If your post was talking about older offspring, I'm still waiting for a source, other than Anticalvinists projecting there negative suppositions on others.  Or did I miss something?



No I wasn't talking about infant children at all but older children. It was just my personal observation that election believers have elected children and free will believers have free will believing children.
I did say "some elected believers"  and "I don't think it is a part of most Election believers doctrine."
My links were confusing and didn't support my case. I did include an opposing argument to show an election believers opinion. I did read that about Acts 2:39 but it could have been from  an anti-Calvinist site.
I apologize to you and now I must eat crow.


----------



## clayservant

kmh1031 said:


> Well, according to the scriptures pharaoh was already hard hearted, and thought he was god...as all the pharaohs did...
> 
> Appearing before Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron delivered their message in the name of God. But Pharaoh arrogantly said: “Who is this God so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away?
> I do not know him at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (Exodus 5:1, 2)
> 
> Pharaoh proved to be both hardhearted and deceitful, yet God urged Moses to deliver messages to him again and again. (Exodus 7:14-16, 20-23; 8:1, 2, 20)
> 
> So, like some people today, they are already hard hearted, and not open to any agreement....



Amen, great answer


----------



## Artfuldodger

God does not need us but using us is part of his plan. Part of using us is to spread the Gospel. He could show people about Jesus himself and perhaps he does but he has instructed us to. I would guess it's similar to helping others. God can help others as he does but he also instructs us to help others. We are doing God's work through ourselves. This is a prime example of free will otherwise God would just do the helping himself. We wouldn't need doctors, God would just directly cure people. No need to help someone out of ditch, God would drag them out. Somehow God wanted his creation involved in his mission, reason, plan, and glory. What better way to glorify God than to manifest his plan through ourselves? I can't think of a more glorifying experience. Helping another human in need vs not commiting a sin is very glorifying. Not to discount how bad sinning is but loving a neighbor is so much better. Stealing is terrible but forgiving your neighbor for stealing is wonderful. It's also a lot harder to do, forgiving. 
Doing good can be quite rewarding.


----------



## Artfuldodger

clayservant said:


> Amen, great answer



While I myself am a believer of limited free will, I feel that God has and can harden the heart for his mission at hand as in Pharaoh. God needed Pharaoh to resist for a particular reason. Maybe God used his abilities to foresee what kind of person Pharaoh was. Maybe he gave him one last chance in the afterlife. 
God also blinded the Jews. Perhaps they will be given a chance for redemption, the ones who pierced him. I'm not so far into Freewill to see that God can't intervene. He IS God, by the way. He is a just God and I can only assume if he does harden someones heart, he will eventually give that person a choice.  I just don't see him as a micro-manager. God and only God knows when Jesus will return. 
My days are numbered, meaning only that I won't live forever as a human. I do have some input to my longevity, as instructed by God, by taking care of my personal temple.
Otherwise he wouldn't tell me to take care of my temple.
How many predestination believers eat whatever and not take safety precautions?
We can only do what the Bible tells us regardless of our beliefs in predestination or freewill. We are limited by God and granted freedom by God at the same time. Just as nature or science limits our choices, so does God as he made nature & science. 
Walking on water is a good example. If God wants me to walk on water to show others a sign of faith, he will make me walk on water.
Otherwise if he wants to see my faith, from myself, I can only do what I can do in the restraints of nature which is from or by God as he placed the restraints. We can only do what nature allows unless God intervenes. If God intervening to allow me to do that which is his need, then that's what I'll do, regardless of my free will.
All of this would also mean that God has free will. We are made in his image. God has free will. We are made in God's image.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

Artfuldodger said:


> While I myself am a believer of limited free will, I feel that God has and can harden the heart for his mission at hand as in Pharaoh. God needed Pharaoh to resist for a particular reason. Maybe God used his abilities to foresee what kind of person Pharaoh was. Maybe he gave him one last chance in the afterlife.
> God also blinded the Jews. Perhaps they will be given a chance for redemption, the ones who pierced him. I'm not so far into Freewill to see that God can't intervene. He IS God, by the way. He is a just God and I can only assume if he does harden someones heart, he will eventually give that person a choice.  I just don't see him as a micro-manager. God and only God knows when Jesus will return.
> My days are numbered, meaning only that I won't live forever as a human. I do have some input to my longevity, as instructed by God, by taking care of my personal temple.
> Otherwise he wouldn't tell me to take care of my temple.
> How many predestination believers eat whatever and not take safety precautions?
> We can only do what the Bible tells us regardless of our beliefs in predestination or freewill. We are limited by God and granted freedom by God at the same time. Just as nature or science limits our choices, so does God as he made nature & science.
> Walking on water is a good example. If God wants me to walk on water to show others a sign of faith, he will make me walk on water.
> Otherwise if he wants to see my faith, from myself, I can only do what I can do in the restraints of nature which is from or by God as he placed the restraints. We can only do what nature allows unless God intervenes. If God intervening to allow me to do that which is his need, then that's what I'll do, regardless of my free will.
> All of this would also mean that God has free will. We are made in his image. God has free will. We are made in God's image.



Art, this is good stuff^^^^^. I have had this same discussion about Pharaoh and why God hardened his heart. God gives us the answer in Exodus Chapter 10

10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your grandson how I have dealt harshly with the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them, that you may know that I am the Lord.”

As you can see, God did this to simply show how great His power is. Pharaoh was never going to turn to God but to preserve his Kingdome he would have allowed the Hebrews to leave. God wanted to show the Hebrew just how powerful there God was and he wanted this passed down threw the generations of the Israelites.


----------



## 1222DANO

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Who makes you obedient or disobedient? If there is no free will then when you are disobedient are you saying God made you do it. Wouldn't that make God the author of sin?




Sorry got busy and i'm alittle lost but wanted to answer you.. That is pretty much correct isn't it. i mean why does a soul choose to conform to society's rules? God doesn't make us do it we know the consequence's of not following the rules and theirs always consequences. God past this down to the people in my opinion through Adam and Eve.. I believe he learned alot through his first creations the ones he destroyed with the flood and Noah.. So he's giving us another chance to see what we will do with our free will... in my opinion of course others might see it different... i would almost have to say the other creations must have been just completely full of sin and the destruction of other souls.. God is saying with the Bible to follow these commandments.. That he has already learned his lesson and doesn't want it to happen again.  the demons ran wild here on earth before and God showed his ultimate power to change or destroy. To change would be to accept his Son JESUS and to destroy your soul would be to give into the world as it is around you.. All we see,hear, and talk about is our reality.. A lot of what we see,hear or speak of is Bad ''news''etc.... and its easy to get pulled into these dark thoughts of all is lost.. that would only lead your own soul into destruction.. God says its not all lost ill show you another way if you'll accept my son JESUS.. He is the light of the world, he makes your heart lighter,receives all your heavy burdens, offers you a family that will love you.. So yes God was the Author of sin Eve committed the first sin in the Garden of Eden.  To be disobedient of any rules would still fall under the ten commandments, to obey your mother and father. even if society tries to create more rules the first set of rules to be given in writing would be the ten commandments.. i'm not history expert but i can't think of any other written rules before.


----------



## gemcgrew

If God is not the author of sin, you must embrace some form of dualism. God is the author of sin and this does not make him a wrongdoer. There is no problem with this, other than tradition. Whether God is the author of sin or not, the wrongdoer is still me. God is sovereign and I am not free.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> If God is not the author of sin, you must embrace some form of dualism. God is the author of sin and this does not make him a wrongdoer. There is no problem with this, other than tradition. Whether or not God is the author of sin, the wrongdoer is still me. God is sovereign and I am not free.



Now that's taking 100 gal. of sap and making 1 gal. of fine maple syrup.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Now that's taking 100 gal. of sap and making 1 gal. of fine maple syrup.


Praise God for maple syrup.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> Praise God for maple syrup.



...Ever notice how 1 tablespoon of pure maple syrup does more for the flavor of a pancake than 1/4 cup of that glorified sugar water (like Log Cabin).


----------



## ambush80

gemcgrew said:


> If God is not the author of sin, you must embrace some form of dualism. God is the author of sin and this does not make him a wrongdoer. There is no problem with this, other than tradition. Whether God is the author of sin or not, the wrongdoer is still me. God is sovereign and I am not free.





I believe I know the answer but just for clarity,  are Pharaoh and all the other "vessels of wrath" in He11?

I believe that according to the Bible that they must be.   I don't have a problem with that.  I mean, if that's what God wants to do who can argue?  I've given up trying to use the "That's not fair" argument when it comes to deities.  Those kind of judgements are above my pay grade.  

I'm with you Gem.  If I'm supposed to come to the Lord I will.  I can't say I haven't heard the "Good News".  

If He exists, His will be done.


----------



## 1222DANO

i believe it says the unGodly will give an account before God also, just because they never knew him doesn't mean they'll be denied. they're soul will be weighed in the balance of good and evil. Its truly amazing stuff and how it applies to our lives just is unbelievable and hard to transmit to someone else. 
Preacher said today and i believe it.. the altar is the place it all begins, Abram "Abraham'and Lot, Abraham was chosen to be the Father of a great nation. I think this was predestined by Abraham's soul by doing his work at the altar. His soul was righteous and he always tryed to do what was right by himself and others.. Lot on the other hand choose to do his own bidding and it lead him into Sodom, He then left and his wife turned and looked back and became a pillar of salt but because he choose not to bow at the altar his family was slowly dissolved into its own heck. Lot was considered to be a righteous man but kept turning his back on God and what was right.. Thats the power of free will in my opinion. You know it also is hard to explain the damage someone can do in their own lives or other lives with the free will given, i'm guilty also but i believe we play a part in changing each life that comes before us. they all take a little bit of us with them we think nobodys listening but in reality their reacting or imitating our actions or words . The free will on Lots soul took awhile before it became a reality, same thing with Abraham he used his free will to worship God and it took a long time to determine his place in the world.  Its almost like a ripple that can turn into a huge wave.. we throw a stone into a pond it makes small ripples around it but those ripples can turn into waves by the time they reach the shore. I would say how a souls place in the world is determined is by people their around and the effect those people have, Its Gods predestination for us all to be Christ like but if we choose not to then the ripple effect starts and theirs consequences and it couldn't never be predetermined by man but by God who can use his own power to calm the waters if he so chooses.. 

All i know is 10lbs of flour makes one big biscuit,


----------



## M80

1222DANO said:


> i believe it says the unGodly will give an account before God also, just because they never knew him doesn't mean they'll be denied. they're soul will be weighed in the balance of good and evil. ,



Their soul will not be weighed on good vrs evil. It's all about whether the blood has been applied to our hearts. Good people die and go to he11 everyday. Marvel not what I say unto you, Ye must be born again. 
Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life, no man cometh unto the father but by me.


----------



## 1222DANO

that wasn't what was in our sermon yesterday but i'll have to check the reference and get back to you. 
I have no verses to back it up as of now, i gotta work today and i'll get back with you.. Every knee shall bend and every head shall bow is all i got for now.. you may be right also, we'll search it out together.


----------



## rjcruiser

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Acts:2
> 37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.
> 
> As you can see by this passage from Acts chapter 2, there is an order to which things happen. Peter and the apostles were preaching the Pentecost and the "people were cut to the heart". The apostles were preaching the word of God. The people did not know what to do, they asked "Brothers what shall we do?"(If they were of the elect, they would not have had to ask this question ) To this Peter replied "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." So as you can see, the Holy Spirit comes after you believe and it is completely different than the gospel.



Acts 2 is not a very good passage to try and determine when a believer receives the Holy Spirit...but that is another thread.

You don't have to have the Holy Spirit inside of you in order to for the Holy Spirit to call you to salvation.  And because a person's asks what they must do to be saved...doesn't mean that they are elect or not elect.

But as far as Acts 2...look at verse 39.  You quote it...but skip right over the fact that everyone God calls...He saves.

Who does the calling?  God.  Who answers?  We do.  But does God call all mankind?  No...only those he's chosen to save.



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> [/COLOR]Brother, you said something earlier about having distain for someone who has a reform theology. This is not the case. Being a Traditional Baptist I am held to the belief that God wants everyone to be saved.



You should read up on what Traditional Baptist believe....you'd realize that Traditional Baptist are reformed. 

See the 1644 Baptist confession here.

http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/h.htm


Edit to add...specifically section xxi



Artfuldodger said:


> Some Elect believers like to use this verse as to why their children are also elected.
> Any thoughts?
> 
> Elect believers have elected children and Freewill believers have free will children. Something just doesn't seem right.



No...that would be covenant theology.

I believe in election.  I pray that the Lord has chosen my children to be elect.



gemcgrew said:


> If God is not the author of sin, you must embrace some form of dualism. God is the author of sin and this does not make him a wrongdoer. There is no problem with this, other than tradition. Whether God is the author of sin or not, the wrongdoer is still me. God is sovereign and I am not free.



Totally different thread...but Satan is the author of sin...God allows it to happen....but God can't create evil.

But...maybe we're on the same page just using different terminology.


----------



## 1222DANO

rjcruiser said:


> Acts 2 is not a very good passage to try and determine when a believer receives the Holy Spirit...but that is another thread.
> 
> You don't have to have the Holy Spirit inside of you in order to for the Holy Spirit to call you to salvation.  And because a person's asks what they must do to be saved...doesn't mean that they are elect or not elect.
> 
> But as far as Acts 2...look at verse 39.  You quote it...but skip right over the fact that everyone God calls...He saves.
> 
> Who does the calling?  God.  Who answers?  We do.  But does God call all mankind?  No...only those he's chosen to save.
> 
> 
> 
> You should read up on what Traditional Baptist believe....you'd realize that Traditional Baptist are reformed.
> 
> See the 1644 Baptist confession here.
> 
> http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/h.htm
> 
> 
> Edit to add...specifically section xxi
> 
> 
> 
> No...that would be covenant theology.
> 
> I believe in election.  I pray that the Lord has chosen my children to be elect.
> 
> 
> 
> Totally different thread...but Satan is the author of sin...God allows it to happen....but God can't create evil.
> 
> But...maybe we're on the same page just using different terminology.



Its a predestination thread so all is welcome, What you've chosen to start another thread for still falls under what determines a souls destination.. our predestination... carry its fine no need to hold back on your view points...


So God created Adam and Eve,,, Eve committed the first sin, that would make Man the Author of sin,, so i stand to be corrected.. Man is Sin in reality.. makes sense..


----------



## 1222DANO

i believe i was wrong ''Man would be the Author of Sin''.


----------



## M80

rjcruiser said:


> Who does the calling?  God.  Who answers?  We do.  But does God call all mankind?  No...only those he's chosen to save.
> .



For God is not willing that any should perish, but that should come to repentence. 
I'm glad I can trust in The Lord, how saying you hope your children will be called mean that you have any trust in The Lord. " for god so the loved the world" " for whosever shall call upon the name of The Lord". 

I just don't see it the way you do. We will have to disagree on this one. Jesus bore the whole worlds sin on the cross. God draws us to his son in John 6:44. It's up to us to accept him but we have been through this so much. 

Hebrews 11 tells us that Moses choose to suffer. We do have a decision to make. God made men to choice to love him. If he wanted robots he would have made us that way. In heaven he has beasts saying Holy, Holy, Holy continuous already


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Totally different thread...but Satan is the author of sin...God allows it to happen....but God can't create evil.
> 
> But...maybe we're on the same page just using different terminology.


Sorry Rj but I see contradiction and dualism. This is an issue with reformed theology. I am aware that not all who hold to reformed theology would embrace your statement though. I see it as a partially reformed theology. We are in agreement for the most part and I enjoy reading your comments.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

gemcgrew said:


> If God is not the author of sin, you must embrace some form of dualism. God is the author of sin and this does not make him a wrongdoer. There is no problem with this, other than tradition. Whether God is the author of sin or not, the wrongdoer is still me. God is sovereign and I am not free.



My Bible says in Deuteronomy 32:4

“The Rock, his work is perfect,
    for all his ways are justice.
A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
    just and upright is he.

I ask you, how can a just God condemn someone to he!! for sin that he cause him to commit?


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> Acts 2 is not a very good passage to try and determine when a believer receives the Holy Spirit...but that is another thread.
> 
> 
> You don't have to have the Holy Spirit inside of you in order to for the Holy Spirit to call you to salvation.  And because a person's asks what they must do to be saved...doesn't mean that they are elect or not elect.
> 
> But as far as Acts 2...look at verse 39.  You quote it...but skip right over the fact that everyone God calls...He saves.
> 
> Who does the calling?  God.  Who answers?  We do.  But does God call all mankind?  No...only those he's chosen to save.



This passage follows other passages that say the same thing about when someone receives the Holy Spirit. As far as verse 39 goes.... (I thought you might jump on that verse). Most Reformed/Calvinist believers jump on anything they see that mentions Election, Predestination, Chosen, Called, etc. without even taking into account context and other scriptures.                                         Acts 2:34 Says

39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 

This verse says that the "promise" is for everyone the Lord or God calls to himself. Not that everyone that "God calls...He saves". This is where Reformist/Calvinist get of coarse. Men have Free Will to either except or reject God's call, as has been stated earlier in the thread it's know as "obedience". When you believe and repent, you admit that you are a sinner and unable to save yourself, that the only way is to surrender yourself to Jesus Christ and stop trying to rely on yourself. The key to being called is the gospel. God's word is where the call comes from.    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.      
                                                                                        This is why in Romans 10 it says:
                                                                                              9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

This is why we are to spread the gospel.



rjcruiser said:


> You should read up on what Traditional Baptist believe....you'd realize that Traditional Baptist are reformed.
> 
> See the 1644 Baptist confession here.
> 
> http://www.reformedreader.org/ccc/h.htm
> 
> 
> Edit to add...specifically section xxi
> .


This will help you with what real "Traditional Southern Baptist" are.


http://sbctoday.com/2012/05/30/an-i...st-understanding-of-god’s-plan-of-salvation”/


----------



## gemcgrew

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> My Bible says in Deuteronomy 32:4
> 
> “The Rock, his work is perfect,
> for all his ways are justice.
> A God of faithfulness and without iniquity,
> just and upright is he.
> 
> I ask you, how can a just God condemn someone to he!! for sin that he cause him to commit?


Are we using our standard of justice in regard to this question? Was he11 within his view when he created this someone? God has a right , true, holy and good purpose for sin and evil. Can we see the purpose?


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> This will help you with what real "Traditional Southern Baptist" are.
> 
> 
> http://sbctoday.com/2012/05/30/an-i...st-understanding-of-god’s-plan-of-salvation”/



From the link:
“We propose that what most Southern Baptists believe about salvation can rightly be called “Traditional” Southern Baptist soteriology”

“We believe it is time to move beyond Calvinism as a reference point for Baptist soteriology.”

And a “wetland” has fewer mosquitoes than a "swamp".
Just sayin’.



Baptist Faith and Message 1963:
“Therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice among Baptists is Jesus Christ whose will is revealed in the Holy Scriptures.”

Baptist Faith and Message 2000:
“We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice.”

Some were embarrassed when Jesus Christ was supplemented, or supplanted, by "Baptist tradition".


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

gemcgrew said:


> Are we using our standard of justice in regard to this question? Was he11 within his view when he created this someone? God has a right , true, holy and good purpose for sin and evil. Can we see the purpose?



Well, once again I turn to scriptures. Was not he!! created for the devil and his angels?

Mathew 25:
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> From the link:
> “We propose that what most Southern Baptists believe about salvation can rightly be called “Traditional” Southern Baptist soteriology”
> 
> “We believe it is time to move beyond Calvinism as a reference point for Baptist soteriology.”
> 
> And a “wetland” has fewer mosquitoes than a "swamp".
> Just sayin’.
> 
> 
> 
> Baptist Faith and Message 1963:
> “Therefore, the sole authority for faith and practice among Baptists is Jesus Christ whose will is revealed in the Holy Scriptures.”
> 
> Baptist Faith and Message 2000:
> “We are not embarrassed to state before the world that these are doctrines we hold precious and as essential to the Baptist tradition of faith and practice.”
> 
> Some were embarrassed when Jesus Christ was supplemented, or supplanted, by "Baptist tradition".



You refer to a swamp. I have no problem as I have stated before with someone believing however they want. I do have a problem with this.

http://www.brnow.org/Opinions/Guest...here-a-Calvinist-agenda-to-reform-traditional

This is also what cause the change from 1963 to 2000.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> You refer to a swamp. I have no problem as I have stated before with someone believing however they want. I do have a problem with this.
> 
> http://www.brnow.org/Opinions/Guest...here-a-Calvinist-agenda-to-reform-traditional
> 
> This is also what cause the change from 1963 to 2000.



I'm a free will believer and ex Southern Baptist. I say let what will happen Happen. If it has been controlled by God to let the SBC go in that direction, then more power to the Calvinest. It might just happen because "stuff happens."
Now if and when this happens, use your free will to move on. Start a schism. I hate it when we think there is an agenda or infiltration of Calvinist or Homosexuals trying to overthrow. It's just  natural flow of things or predestination. Regardless it'll be time for a change. A new day, a new way.


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> You refer to a swamp. I have no problem as I have stated before with someone believing however they want. I do have a problem with this.
> 
> http://www.brnow.org/Opinions/Guest...here-a-Calvinist-agenda-to-reform-traditional



Just more Anticalvinist hype, I guess.  Don't know what else to think when I don't know anyone who can substantiate anything resembling what is discribed.  Gets a little tiresome, but ... whatever.

I can't know what you had in your mind when you said, " This is why we are to spread the gospel.", but many reading would take it that those whom you oppose do not believe in spreading the gospel.  Of that group which I have read and talked to, there has never been one who did not believe that the gospel is to be spread as widely as possible.





Fenderbuilt27 said:


> This is also what cause the change from 1963 to 2000.



You need to check your history, or memory.  If there was any discussion anywhere about the subject prior to the finalization of the BF&M 2000 it must have been behind closed doors.  The big hype at the time was "get rid of the post-modernists".  Come to think of it, the M.O. was strangly similar.



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> What is the final outcome Reformed Baptist are looking for? I'm just curious.



Don't know any.  I know where there is a boarded up building with a sign above the door.

I know they (Calvinist's in SBC) didn't start the mess.  The bad-mouth has all been on the Anticalvinist side.


----------



## Artfuldodger

My beliefs:
No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21)
To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)
I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)
For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:11)
Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)
Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. (1 Corinthians 11:27)
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15)
The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price. (Revelation 22:17)


----------



## rjcruiser

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> This passage follows other passages that say the same thing about when someone receives the Holy Spirit. As far as verse 39 goes.... (I thought you might jump on that verse). Most Reformed/Calvinist believers jump on anything they see that mentions Election, Predestination, Chosen, Called, etc. without even taking into account context and other scriptures.                                         Acts 2:34 Says
> 
> 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.”
> 
> This verse says that the "promise" is for everyone the Lord or God calls to himself. Not that everyone that "God calls...He saves". This is where Reformist/Calvinist get of coarse. Men have Free Will to either except or reject God's call, as has been stated earlier in the thread it's know as "obedience". When you believe and repent, you admit that you are a sinner and unable to save yourself, that the only way is to surrender yourself to Jesus Christ and stop trying to rely on yourself. The key to being called is the gospel. God's word is where the call comes from.    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
> This is why in Romans 10 it says:
> 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
> 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?[c] And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.
> 
> This is why we are to spread the gospel.
> 
> 
> This will help you with what real "Traditional Southern Baptist" are.
> 
> 
> http://sbctoday.com/2012/05/30/an-i...st-understanding-of-god’s-plan-of-salvation”/





I don't understand how you can get more traditional than the 1600s...when the Baptists actually started...but...maybe I'm just a little slow.

Also, I don't beleive the thought of free-will entered into the SBC until the early 1900s...but then again...I might be a little off on my dates.  

As far as the Acts passage...what is the promise God is making?

To whom is he making that promise?

And as far as spreading the gospel....I don't know of a "calvinist" who doesn't believe in spreading the gospel.



Artfuldodger said:


> I'm a free will believer and ex Southern Baptist. I say let what will happen Happen. If it has been controlled by God to let the SBC go in that direction, then more power to the Calvinest. It might just happen because "stuff happens."
> Now if and when this happens, use your free will to move on. Start a schism. I hate it when we think there is an agenda or infiltration of Calvinist or Homosexuals trying to overthrow. It's just  natural flow of things or predestination. Regardless it'll be time for a change. A new day, a new way.



Artful...I'm surprised that you lump together calvinists and homosexuals.

Also, as you can see from the earliest Baptist doctrinal positions...it isn't those that believe in predestination that are trying to start a schism...but rather those who hold to an armenian believe system.



hummerpoo said:


> Just more Anticalvinist hype, I guess.  Don't know what else to think when I don't know anyone who can substantiate anything resembling what is discribed.  Gets a little tiresome, but ... whatever.
> 
> I can't know what you had in your mind when you said, " This is why we are to spread the gospel.", but many reading would take it that those whom you oppose do not believe in spreading the gospel.  Of that group which I have read and talked to, there has never been one who did not believe that the gospel is to be spread as widely as possible.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You need to check your history, or memory.  If there was any discussion anywhere about the subject prior to the finalization of the BF&M 2000 it must have been behind closed doors.  The big hype at the time was "get rid of the post-modernists".  Come to think of it, the M.O. was strangly similar.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know any.  I know where there is a boarded up building with a sign above the door.
> 
> I know they (Calvinist's in SBC) didn't start the mess.  The bad-mouth has all been on the Anticalvinist side.



yup.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> And as far as spreading the gospel....I don't know of a "calvinist" who doesn't believe in spreading the gospel.
> 
> 
> 
> Artful...I'm surprised that you lump together calvinists and homosexuals.
> 
> Also, as you can see from the earliest Baptist doctrinal positions...it isn't those that believe in predestination that are trying to start a schism...but rather those who hold to an armenian believe system.



In relation to spreading the word, I don't think all reformed churches have an alter call at the end of the sermon. Their belief is "what's the point."

I didn't lump Calvinest & homosexuals together. It was just a comparision as some feel homosexuals are trying to infiltrate their denomination. I don't believe Calvinest or homosexuals are trying to infiltrate a certain denomination. There is no agenda. People are just expressing their beliefs. The SBC or any denomination doesn't have to vote for it. But if they do, people are free to join another denomination if theirs suddenly goes against their beliefs. I think it works like a democracy.
The schism would be the free will believers forming a new denomination, not the Calvinest and that's the way it should be.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> Just more Anticalvinist hype, I guess.  Don't know what else to think when I don't know anyone who can substantiate anything resembling what is discribed.  Gets a little tiresome, but ... whatever..



LOL, it may be tiresome for you but I just so happened to have gone through this in my small rural church. That's what got me into doing some research on Calvinism. The funny thing is 18 months ago I couldn't tell you what a Calvinist was. 



hummerpoo said:


> I can't know what you had in your mind when you said, " This is why we are to spread the gospel.", but many reading would take it that those whom you oppose do not believe in spreading the gospel.  Of that group which I have read and talked to, there has never been one who did not believe that the gospel is to be spread as widely as possible.



Why would God want you to  spread the gospel if the final decision has already been made. If you don't  believe anyone could be saved by hearing it?





hummerpoo said:


> You need to check your history, or memory.  If there was any discussion anywhere about the subject prior to the finalization of the BF&M 2000 it must have been behind closed doors.  The big hype at the time was "get rid of the post-modernists".  Come to think of it, the M.O. was strangly similar.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know any.  I know where there is a boarded up building with a sign above the door.
> 
> I know they (Calvinist's in SBC) didn't start the mess.  The bad-mouth has all been on the Anticalvinist side.



Oh, the mess was started long before the SBC was started. Long before John Calvin vs Jacobus Arminius and before Augustine vs Pelagius. This goes back to the Early Church vs Gnosticism.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> I don't understand how you can get more traditional than the 1600s...when the Baptists actually started...but...maybe I'm just a little slow.
> 
> Also, I don't beleive the thought of free-will entered into the SBC until the early 1900s...but then again...I might be a little off on my dates.
> 
> As far as the Acts passage...what is the promise God is making?
> 
> To whom is he making that promise?
> 
> And as far as spreading the gospel....I don't know of a "calvinist" who doesn't believe in spreading the gospel.



Ever heard of Manichaean? Let's take history back a little further than the 1600 Let's go back to 387 AD to a man name Augustine of Hippo. Ever heard of him?


----------



## 1222DANO

i'm learning please continue, never heard most of what your inspiring.. both sides, i'm a young mind..


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

rjcruiser said:


> As far as the Acts passage...what is the promise God is making?



14 But Peter, standing with the eleven, lifted up his voice and addressed them: “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and give ear to my words. 15 For these people are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.* 16 But this is what was uttered through the prophet Joel:



17 
“‘And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
    and your young men shall see visions,
    and your old men shall dream dreams;

18 
even on my male servants[c] and female servants
    in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.

19 
And I will show wonders in the heavens above
    and signs on the earth below,
    blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke;

20 
the sun shall be turned to darkness
    and the moon to blood,
    before the day of the Lord comes, the great and magnificent day.

21 
And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— 23 this Jesus,[d] delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24 God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25 For David says concerning him,


“‘I saw the Lord always before me,
    for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;

26 
therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
    my flesh also will dwell in hope.

27 
For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
    or let your Holy One see corruption.

28 
You have made known to me the paths of life;
    you will make me full of gladness with your presence.’

29 “Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31 he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33 Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34 For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,


“‘The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at my right hand,

35 
    until I make your enemies your footstool.”’

36 Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified.”

37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.



This is the entire story in Acts 2. It looks to me like the promise is the Holy Spirit and since he is talking to the Jews, it sounds to me like he is saying that they have the promise, there children have the promise and all that the Lord our God calls to himself have the promise. Now my point is that 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 says:                                                                                                  13 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits[d] to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. 14 To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, the way I understand this as a Traditional Southern Baptist/Missionary Baptist, is that Gods call comes through the gospel. Maybe you can enlighten me.*


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> LOL, it may be tiresome for you but I just so happened to have gone through this in my small rural church. That's what got me into doing some research on Calvinism. The funny thing is 18 months ago I couldn't tell you what a Calvinist was.



I still can’t tell anyone what a Calvinist is, but your response explains a lot about Anticalvinists;




Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Why would God want you to  spread the gospel if the final decision has already been made. If you don't  believe anyone could be saved by hearing it?




like why they don’t understand that their logic doesn’t trump God’s commands.





Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Oh, the mess was started long before the SBC was started. Long before John Calvin vs Jacobus Arminius and before Augustine vs Pelagius. This goes back to the Early Church vs Gnosticism.



But I still can’t figure why documentation of brainwashing tactics and the abandonment of the authority of Jesus Christ doesn’t warrant a response ... wait ... I got it.

Have a nice witch-hunt, you'll likely bag a limit.  Worldly tactics work well in the world.


----------



## hummerpoo

1222DANO said:


> i'm learning please continue, never heard most of what your inspiring.. both sides, i'm a young mind..



I'm afraid that there is little of value to be learned in this thread; for that I sincerely apologize.  However, this is a good forum with good hearts aplenty.  It will take a while to get to know them. Hang around a while and you'll find righteous souls with a desire to share what God has given them.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> I still can’t tell anyone what a Calvinist is, but your response explains a lot about Anticalvinists;
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> like why they don’t understand that their logic doesn’t trump God’s commands.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But I still can’t figure why documentation of brainwashing tactics and the abandonment of the authority of Jesus Christ doesn’t warrant a response ... wait ... I got it.
> 
> Have a nice witch-hunt, you'll likely bag a limit.  Worldly tactics work well in the world.



You will not answer the questions will you. You divert, twist and side step any question that is hard for you to answer or you know that the answers that you have go so far off coarse that you'd rather not say. You bring up history and I think it's great because I love history but when I bring it up you call it a "witch hunt" . I'll be back later with more scripture. I'd rather use Gods Word to disprove mans word anyway.


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> You will not answer the questions will you. You divert, twist and side step any question that is hard for you to answer or you know that the answers that you have go so far off coarse that you'd rather not say. You bring up history and I think it's great because I love history but when I bring it up you call it a "witch hunt" . I'll be back later with more scripture. I'd rather use Gods Word to disprove mans word anyway.



You have avoided more questions than I in our interchange, but who’s counting.  If your going back a few days, when you indicated that you wanted an inappropriate response, I gave you the answer you requested.

I don’t understand your references to history, they don’t seem to apply to what has been said between us, fifty years is history but my sense is that that’s not your meaning.

I don’t love history, I don’t even like it, but I do love God’s Word.  Trouble is, on the Anticalvinism front, Scriptural discussion tends to be the same tired stuff, over, and over, and over; not that we can’t all learn something from revisiting old arguments (I picked up a good point in opposition to my conclusions two weeks ago), it’s just so much work.

Are you mixing discussions?


----------



## hobbs27

Interesting debate to follow.  Only God knows how this is going to play out.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> Interesting debate to follow.  Only God knows how this is going to play out.



I suspect tongue-in-cheek.  I'm betting you, like most, have a good idea where it's going.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I feel discussions on things like this can strengthen our beliefs by making you figure out why you believe what you do. You should be able to reason why the other believer believes what he does. A little bit of theis and a little bit of that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I still can’t tell anyone what a Calvinist is, but your response explains a lot about Anticalvinists;
> QUOTE]
> 
> How can you tell what an Anticalvinist is when you don't know what a Calvinist is?
> 
> There are many variations of Calvinism & Reformed beliefs held by all denominations. I doubt there are many Christians that don't believe in some bit of predestination. Even a tiny bit of God intervening takes a little bit of free will away.
> Even a tiny bit of free will takes some predestination away.
> It truly is a gray area.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> I still can’t tell anyone what a Calvinist is, but your response explains a lot about Anticalvinists;



I am not an Anticalvinists, I am Anticalvinism. You see my understanding of the Bible says that we should love everyone and we should spread the gospel to everyone. Hummerpoo this is not personal with me and I'm not trying to anger you. I believe we can have a civil debate and at the end agree to disagree. I will keep the History of Calvinism out of the debate if you like but I am going to keep with the scripture. I will keep my questions to one per post and I'll only answer one per post so that there is no confusion as to what has been answered and what has not. I look forward to the rest of our conversations here and I hope that everone else that reads the post maybe gains a little better understanding of just what the issue is. God Bless.





hummerpoo said:


> like why they don’t understand that their logic doesn’t trump God’s commands.



I quoted scripture and broke it down explaining where my understanding came from. My oppinion is based on God's word.





hummerpoo said:


> But I still can’t figure why documentation of brainwashing tactics and the abandonment of the authority of Jesus Christ doesn’t warrant a response ... wait ... I got it.
> 
> Have a nice witch-hunt, you'll likely bag a limit.  Worldly tactics work well in the world.



No witch hunt here. Just what I have discovered while researching the topic. Like I said earlier 18 months ago I didn't even know what a Calvinist was.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> No witch hunt here. Just what I have discovered while researching the topic. Like I said earlier 18 months ago I didn't even know what a Calvinist was.



I've learned more on this forum about things man has been debating going back to Augustine of Hippo debating with Pelagius.
After all of these hundreds of years man is still debating these same topics. Still trying to make it all work out in our wee little minds. Schism after schism, protest after protest.
Strange plan our God has for man to do this.
This would be proof enough for me to support free will.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe we should start with why we feel it is important to believe one or the other. 
Do we need to tell who we witness to of our beliefs? Does it matter if it was your decision or God's as to you becoming a Christian? 
How a sinner comes to know God must be part of his new beginning.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> hummerpoo said:
> 
> 
> 
> I still can’t tell anyone what a Calvinist is, but your response explains a lot about Anticalvinists;
> QUOTE]
> 
> How can you tell what an Anticalvinist is when you don't know what a Calvinist is?
> 
> There are many variations of Calvinism & Reformed beliefs held by all denominations. I doubt there are many Christians that don't believe in some bit of predestination. Even a tiny bit of God intervening takes a little bit of free will away.
> Even a tiny bit of free will takes some predestination away.
> It truly is a gray area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like you said, “many variations”.  In very general terms, an Anticalvinist is most often identified by his accusations and/or animosity (often denied).  Most don’t like classifications because they seldom fit anyone perfectly.  When someone self-classifies, it is often an indication that they haven’t thoroughly examined the implications.  I doubt that I am a Calvinist, if there is a true sense of the term, and I certainly don’t accept that identification, but anti-Anticalvinist might be accurate.
> 
> Do you recall my proposed definition of a Calvinist?  “A Calvinist is someone who has tired of explaining that he is not what the Anticalvinist say he is.”
Click to expand...


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> I am not an Anticalvinists, I am Anticalvinism....Like I said earlier 18 months ago I didn't even know what a Calvinist was.



And yet you use the accusitory term in the same post.

I do understand your broader point and accept it.


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

hummerpoo said:


> And yet you use the accusitory term in the same post.
> 
> I do understand your broader point and accept it.



I am not an Anticalvinists, I am Anticalvinism....Like I said earlier 18 months ago I didn't even know what a Calvinism was.

Is this better for you?


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

*Acts 16*

The Philippian Jailer Converted

25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.

35 But when it was day, the magistrates sent the police, saying, “Let those men go.” 36 And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying, “The magistrates have sent to let you go. Therefore come out now and go in peace.” 37 But Paul said to them, “They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now throw us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out.” 38 The police reported these words to the magistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens. 39 So they came and apologized to them. And they took them out and asked them to leave the city. 40 So they went out of the prison and visited Lydia. And when they had seen the brothers, they encouraged them and departed.

In this passage, in verse 30 the jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. In verse 31 Paul and Silas said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." 

Now, the way I understand this verse it that the jailer had free will and once he exercised that free will and choose to believe then he would be saved. 

My question for Reformest is, how do you understand this scripture if man has no free will?


----------



## Fenderbuilt27

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe we should start with why we feel it is important to believe one or the other.
> Do we need to tell who we witness to of our beliefs? Does it matter if it was your decision or God's as to you becoming a Christian?
> How a sinner comes to know God must be part of his new beginning.



Art, your belief and mine truely are very close the the same. Keep up the good work. I still havnt forgotten about the "once saved always saved" discussion we were going to have. I really don't put a lot of thought into that subject because if you can loose you Salvation or not I don't plan on doing anything to do so.


----------



## hummerpoo

Fender,
I'm sure several have thoughts on your #205, so you may get plenty of traffic on it.  I will be driving for the next several hours.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> And yet you use the accusitory term in the same post.
> 
> I do understand your broader point and accept it.



Do you consider the term Calvinist somewhat offensive such as the Campbellite label we like to lay on individuals who believe in "baptismal regeneration?"


----------



## Artfuldodger

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> The Philippian Jailer Converted
> 
> 25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
> 
> 35 But when it was day, the magistrates sent the police, saying, “Let those men go.” 36 And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying, “The magistrates have sent to let you go. Therefore come out now and go in peace.” 37 But Paul said to them, “They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now throw us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out.” 38 The police reported these words to the magistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens. 39 So they came and apologized to them. And they took them out and asked them to leave the city. 40 So they went out of the prison and visited Lydia. And when they had seen the brothers, they encouraged them and departed.
> 
> In this passage, in verse 30 the jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. In verse 31 Paul and Silas said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
> 
> Now, the way I understand this verse it that the jailer had free will and once he exercised that free will and choose to believe then he would be saved.
> 
> My question for Reformest is, how do you understand this scripture if man has no free will?



You see free will in that passage but one could just as easily see predestination or even election as in the whole household. What caused the great earthquake, God or happenstance? Was the whole incident set up by God to teach a certain lesson? Did Paul do anything on his own or was everything an apostle did caused by God? Was it a little of each?


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> In relation to spreading the word, I don't think all reformed churches have an alter call at the end of the sermon. Their belief is "what's the point."



Alter calls...ahh...another good thread 

The reason that reformed churches don't have an alter call has nothing to do with "what's the point." 

Can anyone point to a scripture where there was an alter call at the end of a sermon/message?



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> LOL, it may be tiresome for you but I just so happened to have gone through this in my small rural church. That's what got me into doing some research on Calvinism. The funny thing is 18 months ago I couldn't tell you what a Calvinist was.



You still don't know what a Calvinist is...and that isn't to poke or to stir...but rather the truth.  You know what a hyper-Calvinist is...but not a Calvinist.  And yes, there's a huge difference.



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Ever heard of Manichaean? Let's take history back a little further than the 1600 Let's go back to 387 AD to a man name Augustine of Hippo. Ever heard of him?



Yes...I've done some studying of ECFs.  



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> Now, the way I understand
> this as a Traditional Southern Baptist/Missionary Baptist, is that Gods call comes through the gospel. Maybe you can enlighten me.



John 1:1 
In the beginning was the Word...and the word was with God and the Word was God. 

You can't separate the Holy Spirit's work in one's life and the Word of God.  Without God, the Bible is nothing.  The two are inseparable.



hobbs27 said:


> Interesting debate to follow.  Only God knows how this is going to play out.



No wait...I'm going to throw a twist and reply in a matter different than how God thought I was going to reply.



Fenderbuilt27 said:


> I am not an Anticalvinists, I am Anticalvinism. You see my understanding of the Bible says that we should love everyone and we should spread the gospel to everyone.



The Calvinist believes the exact same thing.



Artfuldodger said:


> Do you consider the term Calvinist somewhat offensive such as the Campbellite label we like to lay on individuals who believe in "baptismal regeneration?"



The Calvinist label is not offensive.  What is offensive is people who say they know what Calvinism is...and confuse it with Hyper-Calvinism.  It is something that many modern SBCers do to drive out the teaching of predestination.  Free willer's like to be in control of their salvation.


----------



## HawgJawl

The Old Testament lists several things that God hates or detests, for example, a man who wears women's clothes.  Does God hate the person or the sinful act?  

Choice (A):  God does not love everyone.  God hates certain people.

Choice (B):  God does not hate any person.  He just hates certain acts that a person may CHOOSE to commit.

Choice (C):  God does not hate any person.  He just designs certain people to do acts that He hates and He then punishes them for doing those acts even though they had no choice in the matter.

Choice (D):  ?


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Primitive Baptists can be sub-divided into four main groups:

1)Absolute Predestinarians (known as "Absoluters")

2) Limited Predestinarians (known as "Conditionalists")

3) Progressive (known as "Progressives")

(4) Universalists. This last group is the smallest and consists of 5 or 6 small associations in Appalachia that adapted the theory of universal atonement to the doctrines of Primitive Baptists.


High Calvinism - the belief in absolute predestination of all things, the belief that everything that exists or comes to pass does so due to the will and decree of God. 
Low Calvinism - the belief in either conditional or limited predestination or the absolute predestination of some things only, certainly not of all things. 
I could be a "low Calvinism"believer

Hyper (or Hybrid) Calvinism - The belief that God works independently of human means in the saving of sinners, the belief that regeneration precedes faith in Christ.

Hardshells have a sect that are High Calvinists (Absoluters) and a sect that are Low Calvinists. But, they all are Hyper Calvinists.


----------



## HawgJawl

Art,
Do you think God hates certain people?


----------



## Ronnie T

For God so loved the WORLD that he gave His only Son that WHOEVER would believe in Him..........

That's predestination.


----------



## HawgJawl

When God killed people in the Old Testament, was it always because of their own actions or were there some people killed who did nothing wrong?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> Art,
> Do you think God hates certain people?



Yes:
Malachi 1:3
1The oracle of the word of the LORD to Israel through Malachi. 2"I have loved you," says the LORD. But you say, "How have You loved us?" "Was not Esau Jacob's brother?" declares the LORD. "Yet I have loved Jacob; 3but I have hated Esau, and I have made his mountains a desolation and appointed his inheritance for the jackals of the wilderness."


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> When God killed people in the Old Testament, was it always because of their own actions or were there some people killed who did nothing wrong?



You are getting into an area that is way above my understanding. God allowed Satan to kill Job's family. 
Stories of whole cities with children being destroyed.
The story of the flood. Someone touching the Ark of the Covenant. Collateral damage? Cancer? Hear attack? Doesn't God eventually kill everyone physically?
Did God ever kill someone without offering Salvation?
even harder questions for a free will believer.


----------



## Artfuldodger

When we spread the Gospel or witness, at what point do we tell someone "Jesus might have died for your sins" or "if Jesus did die for your sins, you will know it when you receive the Holy Spirit and start producing fruit." 
How do we spread the "Good News" if it isn't Good News" for everyone? I would almost feel guilty witnessing to an individual knowing it might be in vain. True preaching to a group, you pretty well know not all will come to the Lord, but it would be different for me witnessing one on one. Knowing that person doesn't have a choice. Other than not being Biblical, total depravity is the reason for not having an altar call. An altar call or invitiation is just a form of witnessing or spreading the Gospel. 
How would one do this diplomatically? Because of the depravity or the inability of man, to respond, why even spread the Gospel at all? Thus when I said "what's the point?"  Maybe "what good would it do?" sounds better.
How or what do we deliever? How does this work with God pricking their heart?


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Stories of whole cities with children being destroyed.
> 
> Did God ever kill someone without offering Salvation?
> even harder questions for a free will believer.



As far as the small children being killed when an entire city was wiped out, it would not be because of their own actions and they would not have been offered salvation.

This occurred with:
all the towns under the Canaanite King of Arad,
all the Amorites under King Sihon,
all the towns under King Og of Bashan,
all Midianites under all 5 Midianite Kings,
all the occupants of the following cities:
Jericho,
Ai
Makkedah,
Libnah,
Lachish,
Eglon,
Hebron,
Debir,
Hazor,
Madon,
Shimron,
Acshaph,
Anab,
Zephath,
Bethel,
Gibeah,
Jabesh-gilead
31 Kings and their cities west of Jordan.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I would agree that many invitations are in vain and doesn't make someone a Christian. How do I tell someone about Jesus and what he did without giving them an invitation? What if I don't offer an invitation and they ask me how they can recieve salvation? Should I tell them "nothing but wait for the Holy Spirit to consume you."
Can I tell them to pray for the Holy Spirit to consume them? Would reading the Bible help the Holy Spirit consume them? Is there truly nothing they can do being all depraved and all?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> As far as the small children being killed when an entire city was wiped out, it would not be because of their own actions and they would not have been offered salvation.
> 
> This occurred with:
> all the towns under the Canaanite King of Arad,
> all the Amorites under King Sihon,
> all the towns under King Og of Bashan,
> all Midianites under all 5 Midianite Kings,
> all the occupants of the following cities:
> Jericho,
> Ai
> Makkedah,
> Libnah,
> Lachish,
> Eglon,
> Hebron,
> Debir,
> Hazor,
> Madon,
> Shimron,
> Acshaph,
> Anab,
> Zephath,
> Bethel,
> Gibeah,
> Jabesh-gilead
> 31 Kings and their cities west of Jordan.



Understandable and what point are you making, they had no free will? Jesus didn't die for everyone?  Salvation based on family lineage or the land one happened to be from?


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> Understandable and what point are you making, they had no free will? Jesus didn't die for everyone?  Salvation based on family lineage or the land one happened to be from?



It's one thing to consider.  It serves as evidence against the position that God loves everyone and wants everyone to go to heaven, and that people are judged based upon their actions, choices, and beliefs.

It also indicates that "love the sinner - hate the sin" is not God's policy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> It's one thing to consider.  It serves as evidence against the position that God loves everyone and wants everyone to go to heaven, and that people are judged based upon their actions, choices, and beliefs.
> 
> It also indicates that "love the sinner - hate the sin" is not God's policy.



God hates sin. He doesn't punish sin, he punishes the sinner. God hates sinners?


----------



## Israel

Against all the considerations of the above, as though we ourselves watched the world and history pass in review come the words of the writer:
1Co 10:11  Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 


Behold then, the kindness and severity of God.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> God hates sin. He doesn't punish sin, he punishes the sinner. God hates sinners?



God punishes the sinner for doing what, exactly?  Is there some CHOICE made by the sinner to deserve this punishment?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> God punishes the sinner for doing what, exactly?  Is there some CHOICE made by the sinner to deserve this punishment?



I'm not sure, if man is a sinner and can't help it, why is he punished? If he is totally depraved to the point of inability or even if he isn't, he can't quit sinning. The whole point of Jesus and salvation is because man can't quit sinning. The  Old Testament proved this to be so. If man can't help himself, why will he be punished in the first place?
I guess the punishment isn't for the sin but for not receiving salvation for the sin you had no control over.


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> I am not an Anticalvinists, I am Anticalvinism....Like I said earlier 18 months ago I didn't even know what a Calvinism was.
> 
> Is this better for you?



I confess to a further motive in pointing out your use of Calvinist; that being that I am pretty confident that you will, and I will, occasionally use the term unintentionally and I hope to minimize those occasions by making a point of it now.


----------



## hummerpoo

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> The Philippian Jailer Converted
> 
> 25 About midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them, 26 and suddenly there was a great earthquake, so that the foundations of the prison were shaken. And immediately all the doors were opened, and everyone's bonds were unfastened. 27 When the jailer woke and saw that the prison doors were open, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself, supposing that the prisoners had escaped. 28 But Paul cried with a loud voice, “Do not harm yourself, for we are all here.” 29 And the jailer[f] called for lights and rushed in, and trembling with fear he fell down before Paul and Silas. 30 Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31 And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” 32 And they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their wounds; and he was baptized at once, he and all his family. 34 Then he brought them up into his house and set food before them. And he rejoiced along with his entire household that he had believed in God.
> 
> 35 But when it was day, the magistrates sent the police, saying, “Let those men go.” 36 And the jailer reported these words to Paul, saying, “The magistrates have sent to let you go. Therefore come out now and go in peace.” 37 But Paul said to them, “They have beaten us publicly, uncondemned, men who are Roman citizens, and have thrown us into prison; and do they now throw us out secretly? No! Let them come themselves and take us out.” 38 The police reported these words to the magistrates, and they were afraid when they heard that they were Roman citizens. 39 So they came and apologized to them. And they took them out and asked them to leave the city. 40 So they went out of the prison and visited Lydia. And when they had seen the brothers, they encouraged them and departed.
> 
> In this passage, in verse 30 the jailer asked what he had to do to be saved. In verse 31 Paul and Silas said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
> 
> Now, the way I understand this verse it that the jailer had free will and once he exercised that free will and choose to believe then he would be saved.
> 
> My question for Reformest is, how do you understand this scripture if man has no free will?



Wow, what a passage.  Add a couple of verses at the beginning and a wide ranging expository preacher would have 2-6 months material.  I’m pleased that you narrowed the scope somewhat, as is proper.

As you did, I’ll keep it simple.  The jailer ask ““Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”  Where did that come from?  To me the answer is obvious, from God (Jn. 6: 44.  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45.  "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.)  God gathers His people in various ways, in this case by the righteousness of His servants.

The answer to His question:” Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …” We know that will work because God is out in front of it and vs. 32 and 1 Cor. 1: 18. (For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.) tell the rest of the story.

Summary: God regenerated the man and facilitated his salvation (broad definition).


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you consider the term Calvinist somewhat offensive such as the Campbellite label we like to lay on individuals who believe in "baptismal regeneration?"



That depends: 
When there is an attendant catalog of accusatory and/or malevolent statements attached to the word … yes; otherwise … no.  
The same holds for redskin, redneck, gay, hardhat, Jesus freak, hillbilly, etc.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> That depends:
> When there is an attendant catalog of accusatory and/or malevolent statements attached to the word … yes; otherwise … no.
> The same holds for redskin, redneck, gay, hardhat, Jesus freak, hillbilly, etc.



I guess it is the intent. Perhaps reformist would be better.
Is there a accusatory term for free willers? What about a "self saver?"


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Wow, what a passage.  Add a couple of verses at the beginning and a wide ranging expository preacher would have 2-6 months material.  I’m pleased that you narrowed the scope somewhat, as is proper.
> 
> As you did, I’ll keep it simple.  The jailer ask ““Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”  Where did that come from?  To me the answer is obvious, from God (Jn. 6: 44.  "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45.  "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.)  God gathers His people in various ways, in this case by the righteousness of His servants.
> 
> The answer to His question:” Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved …” We know that will work because God is out in front of it and vs. 32 and 1 Cor. 1: 18. (For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.) tell the rest of the story.
> 
> Summary: God regenerated the man and facilitated his salvation (broad definition).



Seems a little extreme to me that God would have Paul & Silas locked up, then cause an earthquake, & have a man contemplate suicide just to bring a servant and sinner together. Then for some strange reason this whole story was somehow worthy of being a part of God's Word, to teach us something we have no control of. 
I really don't see the point of all the Bible lessons if it's only to teach us God is in total control. God actually didn't need the Bible after all, nor do we.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Seems a little extreme to me that God would have Paul & Silas locked up, then cause an earthquake, & have a man contemplate suicide just to bring a servant and sinner together. Then for some strange reason this whole story was somehow worthy of being a part of God's Word, to teach us something we have no control of.
> I really don't see the point of all the Bible lessons if it's only to teach us God is in total control. God actually didn't need the Bible after all, nor do we.



Being a lazy sort, I'll take the easy passage for that one.  Besides, if you work your way through all the nuance of this one, then fit the first 7 verses to it, you'll be busy for a long time.

Isaiah 55:
 8.  "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD.
 9.  "For {as} the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.
 10.  "For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it bear and sprout, And furnishing seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
 11.  So will My word be which goes forth from My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding {in the matter} for which I sent it.
 12.  "For you will go out with joy And be led forth with peace; The mountains and the hills will break forth into shouts of joy before you, And all the trees of the field will clap {their} hands.
 13.  "Instead of the thorn bush the cypress will come up, And instead of the nettle the myrtle will come up, And it will be a memorial to the LORD, For an everlasting sign which will not be cut off."


----------



## M80

Ok, going to get back in this one. Election is God in total control, no matter what God will have everything done the way he ordered it. We have no control in what we do. Is God making us do what we do. I read last year on this subject that if God has chosen you there is no way to denie it. You'll be forced to get saved. 

I have a few verses that come to mind. Moses choosed to suffer, Joshua said chose this day whom Ye will serve. Elijah asked chose who Ye will serve God or Baal. Did not Moses ask who they would serve when he came down from the mount to the children of Israel.   Dosnt the bible say in Hebrews "if we sin willfully"

Are these not decisions (choices) that they made or are Calvinist saying God scripted it this way.

As far as God scripting it what if by him watching our life before the foundation of the world he saw what decision we would make. Therefore he for knew us by what choices we made. Whether we accepted him or rejected him. Whether we pray for a situation or not.


----------



## M80

Abraham offering Isaac 
Genesis 22:12(KJV) "and he said, lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou anything unto him:for know I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son"

I believe God knew what decision he would make about Isaac because he for knew him, but it was Abrahams decision. God tested Abraham for Abrahams benefit. Abraham gained so much trust in The Lord after this particular event.


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## Israel

It may well be the will of God that no man be able to prove to another that God's will is always accomplished. It could be something God reserves to himself between the man who may doubt that, and even by doubt believe it can be thwarted, and himself.

I knew a man with an army of 10,000...


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## Ronnie T

The theology of God's will has always been complicated, and in many ways contradictory.  It's difficult, for we who are the created, to accurately examine the issue of God's will and His allowance of sin.
I think it's important to make a claim for distinguishing between what is called God's perfect will and God's permissive will.  In His perfect will, He desires that all refrain from sin.  But in His permissive will, He allows people to sin(and will then even forgive them).

God's will.  And then God's allowances.  And then God's will concerning those allowances.

This ain't easy stuff folks.  There are no one sentence replies when "attempting" to describe your God.


1Tim 2:3-4  "This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" 

2Pet 3:9  "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance".

Speaking of God's will, you know what God's will is this morning?
Get up and go visit someone who's sick, or in a nursing home.  That's His will.  Go.


----------



## gemcgrew

One thing that I have noticed is that every attempt to refute predestination reduces God to something far less than what he is.


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> One thing that I have noticed is that every attempt to refute predestination reduces God to something far less than what he is.



And I have noticed that "predestination" limits God's option by saying that if God CAN do something, He must ALWAYS do that thing.  If God has the power to know the future, then there is no possibility that He could design a scenerio in which He does not know the future, simply because it pleases Him to see how His subjects will react in different situations.

It is like saying that Jesus CANNOT sink into water.  Jesus does not have the ability to break the surface of water.  I know this because Jesus walked on top of water.  If He has that ability, He must ALWAYS use it.  Jesus does not have the option of using this power only when He wishes.


----------



## ambush80

HawgJawl said:


> And I have noticed that "predestination" limits God's option by saying that if God CAN do something, He must ALWAYS do that thing.  If God has the power to know the future, then there is no possibility that He could design a scenerio in which He does not know the future, simply because it pleases Him to see how His subjects will react in different situations.
> 
> It is like saying that Jesus CANNOT sink into water.  Jesus does not have the ability to break the surface of water.  I know this because Jesus walked on top of water.  If He has that ability, He must ALWAYS use it.  Jesus does not have the option of using this power only when He wishes.




Very interesting.  So you believe that God can make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it.  

I've changed my mind and now believe that God can turn off his Omniscience at will and allow himself to be surprised.  He can do anything.  How does his Omniscience affect himself?  Does he say "Tuesday will be surprise day.  No omniscience all day long for I have foreseen it".

Man, it's just one problematic puzzle after another.  And y'all think non-believing is hard......


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> And I have noticed that "predestination" limits God's option by saying that if God CAN do something, He must ALWAYS do that thing.  If God has the power to know the future, then there is no possibility that He could design a scenerio in which He does not know the future, simply because it pleases Him to see how His subjects will react in different situations.
> 
> It is like saying that Jesus CANNOT sink into water.  Jesus does not have the ability to break the surface of water.  I know this because Jesus walked on top of water.  If He has that ability, He must ALWAYS use it.  Jesus does not have the option of using this power only when He wishes.



Few considerations would be more puzzling, and perhaps troubling...than the notion that God does not know the end from the beginning...as though he is travelling through time with us second by second.
I don't know much about time, not even sure if it exists in any real sense besides by a reflected observation of it as perceved "in" change...but regardless of how and what time may be, I am settled God is not subject to it.


----------



## HawgJawl

ambush80 said:


> Very interesting.  So you believe that God can make a burrito so hot that he can't eat it.
> 
> I've changed my mind and now believe that God can turn off his Omniscience at will and allow himself to be surprised.  He can do anything.  How does his Omniscience affect himself?  Does he say "Tuesday will be surprise day.  No omniscience all day long for I have foreseen it".
> 
> Man, it's just one problematic puzzle after another.  And y'all think non-believing is hard......



I view it like we are lab rats and God is the scientist in control of the maze.  God can place us anywhere in the maze He wishes.  God can place any obstacles, distractions, temptations, etc. in our path He wishes.  God can change the layout of the maze by opening and closing doors as He wishes.  God can pretty much guarantee we will go where He wants us to go if He opens and closes the right doors and lures us with cheese or pokes us in the rear with a stick.  If God wants a specific outcome, He can make it happen, however, the more choices the rat has, the more entertaining and rewarding the entire experiment is.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If God has foreseen everything that will happen, why did he go through with the experiment? At the very least why let anyone be born he fore knew would not be saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Man has been debating the issue of free will  since Augustine of Hippo debated with Pelagius in the 4th century. 
We should be getting close to an answer soon. We could have a council.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> If God has foreseen everything that will happen, why did he go through with the experiment? At the very least why let anyone be born he fore knew would not be saved?



God knew what decision we would make before we made it but it was still us who makes the decision and each decision we make for the rest of our life's


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> Few considerations would be more puzzling, and perhaps troubling...than the notion that God does not know the end from the beginning...as though he is travelling through time with us second by second.
> I don't know much about time, not even sure if it exists in any real sense besides by a reflected observation of it as perceved "in" change...but regardless of how and what time may be, I am settled God is not subject to it.



I know where you're coming from. I really do.  You are of the position than any question that starts off "Can God......" The answer is "Yes".  (Don't ask you to try to explain it though).



HawgJawl said:


> I view it like we are lab rats and God is the scientist in control of the maze.  God can place us anywhere in the maze He wishes.  God can place any obstacles, distractions, temptations, etc. in our path He wishes.  God can change the layout of the maze by opening and closing doors as He wishes.  God can pretty much guarantee we will go where He wants us to go if He opens and closes the right doors and lures us with cheese or pokes us in the rear with a stick.  If God wants a specific outcome, He can make it happen, however, the more choices the rat has, the more entertaining and rewarding the entire experiment is.




Beloved lab rats.  Loved more than we could ever know.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> One thing that I have noticed is that every attempt to refute predestination reduces God to something far less than what he is.



Amen. 



HawgJawl said:


> And I have noticed that "predestination" limits God's option by saying that if God CAN do something, He must ALWAYS do that thing.  If God has the power to know the future, then there is no possibility that He could design a scenerio in which He does not know the future, simply because it pleases Him to see how His subjects will react in different situations.
> 
> It is like saying that Jesus CANNOT sink into water.  Jesus does not have the ability to break the surface of water.  I know this because Jesus walked on top of water.  If He has that ability, He must ALWAYS use it.  Jesus does not have the option of using this power only when He wishes.



No...not true.  

Jesus walked on water...but I'm sure he also swam in the lake as well.

That being said, God can do nothing against his divine character.  For instance, God is sinless....therefore, He can't sin.  God is all knowing, therefore, there is nothing we can do that he doesn't know about.  etc etc.



Artfuldodger said:


> If God has foreseen everything that will happen, why did he go through with the experiment? At the very least why let anyone be born he fore knew would not be saved?



I think Job asked similar questions of God.



mwilliams80 said:


> God knew what decision we would make before we made it but it was still us who makes the decision and each decision we make for the rest of our life's



Man has a responsibility...that is true.  But the process starts with God.


----------



## HawgJawl

rjcruiser said:


> Jesus walked on water...but I'm sure he also swam in the lake as well.
> 
> That being said, God can do nothing against his divine character.  For instance, God is sinless....therefore, He can't sin.  God is all knowing, therefore, there is nothing we can do that he doesn't know about.  etc etc.



What power is it that will not allow God to intentionally create a scenerio in which he can test His subjects by presenting options to them?  Why is God unable to do this?  Does this limitation make Him a little less than all-powerful?


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## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> God knew what decision we would make before we made it but it was still us who makes the decision and each decision we make for the rest of our life's



That's the point I was making. God could have used his foreknowledge of knowing the individuals who would not come to him and just not let them be born.


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## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the point I was making. God could have used his foreknowledge of knowing the individuals who would not come to him and just not let them be born.



Now that's interesting.  What is an individual that is never born? Nobody?  Nothing?


----------



## Artfuldodger

ambush80 said:


> Now that's interesting.  What is an individual that is never born? Nobody?  Nothing?



God could send the pre-existing souls of the ones he knows will never convert straight to Heaven.
Not to question God, he could send them straight to He11 if he forknows they will never convert.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I think Job asked similar questions of God.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> At least Job had the free will to argue with God.
> 
> How to Argue with God:
> Back in the spring I read a sermon that Charles Spurgeon preached in London about a century ago. The text he used in that sermon was Job 23:3, 4, where Job says of God, "O that I knew where I might find him! That I might come even to his seat! I would order my cause before him and fill my mouth with arguments." Spurgeon observed that,
> 
> 
> the ancient saints were given with Job, to ordering their cause before God. As a petitioner coming into court does not come there without thought to state his case on the spur of the moment, but enters into the audience chamber with his suit well prepared, having also learned how he ought to behave himself in the presence of the great one to whom he is appealing, so it is well to approach the seat of the King of Kings as much as possible with premeditation and preparation, knowing what we are about, where we are standing, and what it is which we desire to obtain. ("Effective Prayer," Gospel Mission, p. 4)
> 
> Then he gave a personal word which also rang true with my experience. He said,
> 
> The best prayers I have ever heard in our prayer meetings have been those which have been fullest of argument. Sometimes my soul has been fairly melted down where I have listened to the brethren who have come before God feeling the mercy to be really needed, and that they must have it, for they first pleaded with God to give it for this reason, and then for a second, and then for a third and then for a fourth and a fifth until they have awakened the fervency of the entire assembly. ("Effective Prayer," p. 10)
> 
> http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/how-to-argue-with-god


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> the ancient saints were given with Job, to ordering their cause before God.


What do you suppose he meant by the word "given"? The word "wont" was actually used I believe.


----------



## rjcruiser

HawgJawl said:


> What power is it that will not allow God to intentionally create a scenerio in which he can test His subjects by presenting options to them?  Why is God unable to do this?  Does this limitation make Him a little less than all-powerful?



when you say subjects, do you mean Christians? or all people?

Christians are tested....look at James 1.


----------



## 1222DANO

i have been trying to keep up but got behind and this might already could have been covered.. sorry if i'm off..,,,

Like the Pharaoh whose heart was hardened could he have come to God with his last breath of Air an Accepted Jesus.. I have heard from some preachers my whole life that most people sit in misery their whole lives and turn to Jesus at the last moments and call out for God.. So i mean if God was using the pharaoh to teach a lesson, i like to believe and it may not be, but God would call him to him with his last breaths... 

Artful, 
I believe in heaven theirs not gonna be more love for any one person.. we'll all be the same and a walk together, you'll love someone else's child just as much as your own.. So its a promise you'll see your child again and all children are in heaven. we are considered his children and he's given us a promise... if its children you want to talk to then you'll talk to them all.. if its your mother or father then you'll speak to everyones mothers and fathers, with perfect love... not the same as here..


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> If God has foreseen everything that will happen, why did he go through with the experiment?


Art, a god that has to experiment is of no use to me.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> What power is it that will not allow God to intentionally create a scenerio in which he can test His subjects by presenting options to them?  Why is God unable to do this?  Does this limitation make Him a little less than all-powerful?


Omniscience


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> Art, a god that has to experiment is of no use to me.



Amen...and being created as an experiment is something less than being created to know the love of God.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> God knew what decision we would make before we made it but it was still us who makes the decision and each decision we make for the rest of our life's


Do you believe that he knew our decisions and where they would lead us, before he created us? In other words, those who are suffering in he11 were created with he11 in view and without hope.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> Amen...and being created as an experiment is something less than being created to know the love of God.


And nothing is able to separate us from that love.


----------



## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> And nothing is able to separate us from that love.



Hallelujah!


----------



## Ronnie T

God loves the whole world.
Gave His son for it.
God would be very pleased if every person would believe in Him.

This has been God's will from the very beginning.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Amen.
> 
> 
> 
> No...not true.
> 
> Jesus walked on water...but I'm sure he also swam in the lake as well.
> 
> That being said, God can do nothing against his divine character.  For instance, God is sinless....therefore, He can't sin.  God is all knowing, therefore, there is nothing we can do that he doesn't know about.  etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Job asked similar questions of God.
> 
> 
> 
> Man has a responsibility...that is true.  But the process starts with God.



What do you say man's responsibility is?
Do all mankind have the same responsibility?
.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> What do you suppose he meant by the word "given"? The word "wont" was actually used I believe.



I think he was using it as being given a task. Here it the paragraphs before that one from Spurgeon:

Ordering Our Cause Before God
There is a popular notion that prayer is a very easy thing,
a kind of common business that may be done anyhow,
without care or effort. Some think that you have only to reach
a book down and get through a certain number of very
excellent words, and you have prayed and may put the book
up again. Others suppose that to use a book is superstitious
and that you ought rather to repeat extemporaneous
sentences, sentences which come to your mind with a rush,
like a herd of swine or a pack of hounds, and that when you
have uttered them with some little attention to what you have
said, you have prayed.
Now neither of these modes of prayer were adopted by
ancient saints. They appear to have thought a great deal more
seriously of prayer than many do nowadays. It seems to have
been a mighty business with them, a long-practiced exercise,
in which some of them attained great eminence, and were
thereby singularly blest. They reaped great harvests in the
field of prayer, and found the mercy seat to be a mine of
untold treasures. (end quote)

The sermon was on how to pray effectively. Job was used as an example in this sermon. 
My take on it as Job said: “The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.” 

With effective prayer, we can get back what God takes. The two concepts of free will and predestination once again overlap. You would say "everything is of the Lord."
It is but using our free will with how we live and how we are obedient and the Lord willing, he will give. If he does take away, we can use prayer effectively to gain it back. 
I don't see it as taking God out of control. He's just giving me some control. Job gained more than he had.
We can use our free will to pray effectively as Job and the ancient Saints did by putting some real effort into our prayers. We can argue with God as the ancient Saints did.

http://api.ning.com/files/UXFCqqm1N...GmcupcZzgxLYXWu/EffectivePrayerCHSpurgeon.pdf


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> God loves the whole world.
> Gave His son for it.
> God would be very pleased if every person would believe in Him.
> 
> This has been God's will from the very beginning.



"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"


----------



## Ronnie T

Here's a cut and paste from my files.  Rip it apart.


B.  The second word I would like to call to your attention is the word "predestined."

1.  Because of earlier concepts of predestination, many of us have developed a prejudice to the word "predestination."
a.  The earlier concept associated predestination with personal salvation--God determined whether a person would be saved or lost before the person was born, and there was nothing a person could do to change God's decision.
b.  However, there is a concept of predestination that has nothing to do with God determining a person's salvation in a way that eliminates the person's choice.


2.  It is likely that most of you accept through faith that concept of predestination.
a.  Consider some examples.
b.  Do you believe God sent Jesus to this world? Is that not belief in a concept of predestination?
c.  Do you believe God will cause an end the this evil world? Is that not belief in a concept of predestination?
d.  Do you believe God will cause a judgment of all people to occur? Is that not belief in a concept of predestination?
e.  Do you believe that God will finally destroy Satan? Is that not a belief in a concept of predestination?
f. In any one of those things or in all of those things do you believe there is anything humans or Satan can do to prevent some or all of those things from happening? Do you believe one or all of those things will happen because God wills them to happen? Is that not a form of or concept of predestination?
g.  My objective is not to convince you to believe in something you reject. My objective is to challenge you to be aware of the fact that there is more than one concept of predestination.


3.There are certain things that God wills to happen that will happen at some point in human events because God purposes and intends them to happen.
a.  Your salvation, your personal response to God is not one of them.
b. God willed that all who place their confidence in Jesus Christ and enter him will be saved in him--a person cannot be "in Christ" and fail to be saved.

c.  In a general form of predestination, God wills that those in Jesus Christ will be saved--that is God's desire, and it will happen.
d.  However, the choice to be in Christ is yours--you choose to place your confidence in Christ.

e.  Generally, God wills the salvation of all in Christ; specifically, God does not choose your response to Christ for you.
f.  God wants everyone to turn from Satan, have confidence in Jesus, and be in Jesus Christ. As Peter once wrote in 2 Peter 3:9, The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

g.  God wants all of us to be saved--that is His sacrificial intent.
h.  If we refuse to enter Jesus Christ and place our confidence in him, that is our choice--not God's.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"



Both are correct.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The best prayers I have ever heard in our prayer meetings have
been those which have been fullest of argument. Sometimes
my soul has been fairly melted down when I have listened to
brethren who have come before God feeling the mercy to be
really needed, and that they must have it, for they first
pleaded with God to give it for this reason, and then for a
second, and then for a third, and then for a fourth and a fifth,
until they have awakened the fervency of the entire assembly.
There is no need for prayer at all as far as God is
concerned, but what a need there is for it on our own
account! If we were not constrained to pray, I question
whether we could even live as Christians. If God's mercies
came to us unasked, they would not be half so useful as they
now are, when they have to be sought for; for now we get a
double blessing, a blessing in the obtaining, and a blessing in
the seeking. The very act of prayer is a blessing.

http://api.ning.com/files/UXFCqqm1N...GmcupcZzgxLYXWu/EffectivePrayerCHSpurgeon.pdf


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, a god that has to experiment is of no use to me.



This much is true and I don't consider our life on earth an experiment by God. We were placed here to glorify God. 
I see something man did that messed up God's original plan.
You see everything that happened "AS" God's original plan.


----------



## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> What do you say man's responsibility is?
> Do all mankind have the same responsibility?
> .


 I have become fond of response ability.

I think sometimes of the love of God, what proceeds from him in such abundance, and of what we are told of the "why" we love. 
In the peculiar paradox that is only resolved in God...I find something of which I can always be sure, and yet...something, of which, I can never take for granted. At least in the sense that we men have become accustomed to that term.
Yet despite this, it truly is everything, and I mean everything as far as I can understand it...it is what can only be taken...for granted. To be "granted" to know the love of God, in truth, is everything that delivers a soul...from "taking it for granted".
Almost hilarious, no?

That God loves, indeed_ is _love...is wonderful to the extreme. To see what he has done to get that _into_ me, into you...into any...well...that boggles _my_ mind.

So great a salvation!


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> This much is true and I don't consider our life on earth an experiment by God. We were placed here to glorify God.
> I see something man did that messed up God's original plan.
> You see everything that happened "AS" God's original plan.



If Jesus is, at best..."Plan B" for a messed up "Plan A"...we could perhaps consider the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"

Who is...always has been, always will be the truth of "let us make man in our image after our likeness?"

To which Adam does the Spirit testify? Which "man" is brightest in our eye?


----------



## Artfuldodger

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)


    "And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> If Jesus is, at best..."Plan B" for a messed up "Plan A"...we could perhaps consider the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
> 
> Who is...always has been, always will be the truth of "let us make man in our image after our likeness?"
> 
> To which Adam does the Spirit testify? Which "man" is brightest in our eye?



It is in Genesis chapter 3, the original purpose of God is going to take a 6000 year detour. Satan had a hand in it.
Maybe God foresaw it or even caused the fall of man. If he caused it then I would consider our life an experiment.

Regardless he did have plan B or maybe it was part of plan A. In Genesis 3:15, God promised satan that it is through a woman whom he deceived, that there will come one who will set the score. "


----------



## Ronnie T

Ronnie T said:


> What do you say man's responsibility is?
> Do all mankind have the same responsibility?
> .





Israel said:


> I have become fond of response ability.
> 
> I think sometimes of the love of God, what proceeds from him in such abundance, and of what we are told of the "why" we love.
> In the peculiar paradox that is only resolved in God...I find something of which I can always be sure, and yet...something, of which, I can never take for granted. At least in the sense that we men have become accustomed to that term.
> Yet despite this, it truly is everything, and I mean everything as far as I can understand it...it is what can only be taken...for granted. To be "granted" to know the love of God, in truth, is everything that delivers a soul...from "taking it for granted".
> Almost hilarious, no?
> 
> That God loves, indeed_ is _love...is wonderful to the extreme. To see what he has done to get that _into_ me, into you...into any...well...that boggles _my_ mind.
> 
> So great a salvation!



In John's (Baptist) ministry; in Jesus' ministry; and in the apostles ministry there was a responsibility of the person.  The responsibility was laid upon that person's head(heart).  It was a responsibility for all who would belong to Christ.  
That responsibility still exists today according to scripture.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> My take on it as Job said: “The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away; blessed be the name of the Lord.”
> [/url]



Art, I haven’t read the posts that follow your #263, so if I’m out-of-whack as a result of that just let me know.

My evening has been spent looking at the two sermons which you introduced, Spurgeon’s and Piper’s.  I was quite favorable impressed by one and equally disappointed by the other.

My request of you is this: Look at Job, starting at Ch. 23 and keep going until you find the answers to two questions.

1)	What did Job want to say to God when he found Him? (There is more than one answer, I’m not suggesting you dig them all out, just 2 or 3).
2)	What was Gods response to Job?

Then ask yourself if you still think that what you said above is a correct concerning the sermon, and, is the sermon a reliable exposition of the passage in Job.

This isn’t for me, just for your own edification.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Art, I haven’t read the posts that follow your #263, so if I’m out-of-whack as a result of that just let me know.
> 
> My evening has been spent looking at the two sermons which you introduced, Spurgeon’s and Piper’s.  I was quite favorable impressed by one and equally disappointed by the other.
> 
> My request of you is this: Look at Job, starting at Ch. 23 and keep going until you find the answers to two questions.
> 
> 1)	What did Job want to say to God when he found Him? (There is more than one answer, I’m not suggesting you dig them all out, just 2 or 3).
> 2)	What was Gods response to Job?
> 
> Then ask yourself if you still think that what you said above is a correct concerning the sermon, and, is the sermon a reliable exposition of the passage in Job.
> 
> This isn’t for me, just for your own edification.



The sermon was not just centered around Job. Job's praying was just an example of the power of prayer, not the lesson of Job.
I can see many similarities between Job and Jesus. Jesus cried out to his Father, when in distress just as Job did.
Job cried out to God as in blaming him for his distress.Job never did abandon God. The whole story is based on free will and predestination. God allowed Satan to test Job. Job used his free will as Satan tested him. Without free will there would be no test. You can't test someone without them having free will.
The answer to the first question is  Job saw evil people getting away with murder and himself being punished. This could show us that good works doesn't compare to God's grace. It definitely shows us that God is in control. Don't be so righteous to think otherwise. God has the final say in everything. There is way more to Job than we could discuss here and yet it is just one Old Testament chapter of many. 
God's response to Job was, I can't do everything but I can do whatever is in my will. You don't worry about why I do the things I do, that is none of your concern. The only wisdom you need to know is to fear me and shun evil.
Fearing God means not only his wrath but the concept of showing love with obedience and faith.
The book of Job speaks that God indeed makes the wind blow and has the final say. It also speaks of free will; love, faith, obedience, praying, and shunning evil. 
The main lesson I get is of God's grace. Don't worry about why evil people are blessed and you aren't. Learn a few lessons on fearing Fearing God and live that way then if you pray, God will grant you blessings. Lot's of free will in that book.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Art, I haven’t read the posts that follow your #263, so if I’m out-of-whack as a result of that just let me know.
> 
> My evening has been spent looking at the two sermons which you introduced, Spurgeon’s and Piper’s.  I was quite favorable impressed by one and equally disappointed by the other.
> 
> My request of you is this: Look at Job, starting at Ch. 23 and keep going until you find the answers to two questions.
> 
> 1)	What did Job want to say to God when he found Him? (There is more than one answer, I’m not suggesting you dig them all out, just 2 or 3).
> 2)	What was Gods response to Job?
> 
> Then ask yourself if you still think that what you said above is a correct concerning the sermon, and, is the sermon a reliable exposition of the passage in Job.
> 
> This isn’t for me, just for your own edification.



I could come to the conclusion that RJ was suggesting as Job did that I too was asking the wrong questions about God's ways. Perhaps I was wrong to do this as people who question things about grace, discipleship, free will, and predestination. We should just put more faith in God and not worry with wisdom so much.(other than to fear God and shun evil) I'm beginning to see how grace, discipleship, free will, and predestination overlap in the Christian equation. Just as someone who has  experienced something distressful might question God as to why, we must  reel ourselves back towards God by understanding love is a part of fearing God. So in closing, all of that would take a tremendous amount of free will. Lots of choices involved in fearing God and shunning evil. If we stay on the Love side of things, we'll all make it provided we trust in God's grace and Jesus' redemption.


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Do you believe that he knew our decisions and where they would lead us, before he created us? In other words, those who are suffering in he11 were created with he11 in view and without hope.



Yes on the first part of your question. No on the second part. They did have hope. They rejected him, but he knew they would reject them. He didn't make them go to he11. God dosnt send anyone to he11, the person that rejects him sends theirself there


----------



## hummerpoo

Banjo Picker said:


> To know beforehand. knew before(2 Pet.3:17); foreknew (Rom.8:29; foreordain(1Pet.1:20; Rom. 11:1) and know (Acts.26:5) foreordain. determine before(Acts4:28); ordain(1Cor. 2:7; and predestinate (Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1. 5, 11).
> It is Gods plan that he has foreknown and predestinated,  and not the individual conformity of free wills to the plan. He has called all men and all are free to accept or reject the call(Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet.3;9; Rev. 22:17). All who do not accept, He has foreknown and predestinated to be conformed to the image of his son that his son might be the first-born among many brethren(v 29). Those who reject the plan, He has foreknown and predestinated to be consigned to eternal - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - as an everlasting mounment of his wrath on rebels(Isa 66:22-24; Rev 14:9-11; Mt.25:41, 46). This the sum of foreknowledge and predestination.
> Only here(1 Pet. 1:2 ) and(Acts. 2:23) In both places it refers to God seeing ahead that He would have to send a Savior to redeem man from the fall. No single individual is chosen, elected,foreknown or presdestined to be saved or lost with out his personal choice and responsibillity in the matter(Jn. 3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17) It would be a cruel respect of persons an unjust regard for one and an unjust disregard for another and not divine justice for one to be chosen by God to be saved and another to be damed. God offers grace to all alike .His invtations, promises, provision, and warnings of punishment are general. All men are invited to choose life and are warnedof eternal punishment if they do so. It is inconsistent with man's probation for God to choose and elect some to be saved and some to be lost.



If I read correctly, an edit is needed at my highlight.

The conclusions are correct, if one ignores the body of scripture which discribes Gods individual call.  Include those verses and things change.  Funny how that works.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Proverbs 3:7
New International Version
Do not be wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD and shun evil.

New Living Translation
Don't be impressed with your own wisdom. Instead, fear the LORD and turn away from evil.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

Be not wise in thine own eyes,.... So as to act independently of God; not to trust in him, nor acknowledge him, nor seek to him for help and direction; nor ask nor take the advice of others; but, being conceited and self-sufficient, lean to thine own understanding, as being wise enough to conduct all affairs in life by thy own discretion; and in matters of religion wiser than thy teachers, and even than the Scriptures, being wise above that which is written; pleasing thyself with thine own wisdom, as exceeding others; glorying in it as thine own acquisition, and not ascribing it to God, so far as it any ways deserves the name of wisdom; though for the most part that which men glory in, and are conceited of, is not wisdom, but folly; and at least it is their folly to boast of it and be elated with it; see Isaiah 5:21, Romans 12:16; 

This lesson is related to the discussion because we must figure out how much  wisdom and knowledge God want's us to have. Maybe we can gain so much wisdom that it does more harm than good. 
Sometimes I read so much in the Bible that I try to add too much back into my salvation that Grace took care of.  
Maybe fearing the Lord and shunning evil is all we must know. Can we close our Bibles now? What about this forum? Why are we here and what are we trying to do? Learn more about God or religion?
Can I use my knowledge to make the correct choice? Does knowledge help me fear the lord and shun evil?
We do have freedom/choice but we must never believe that God isn't in control in the grand scheme of things. I believe this takes free will. One would need to use free will to make a choice to believe in predestination.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe on this subject we should take the advice of the lesson in Job.
We won't always be given the answers. We can't even understand why God made a deal with Satan in the opening of the lesson. In many ways, we can quit looking for answers as we will never know.
We do know of one mystery revealed. The others we can say, "let the mystery be."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I've said this before and I myself am guilty. We get so wrapped up in these discussions that we lose touch of our purpose. We go from learning and teaching to just __________. The blank could be any of many guilts including boasting, showing off, convincing someone they are wrong and you are right, hurting, offending, personal attacks, name calling, having the last word, slandering,etc.


----------



## 1222DANO

I got just a little bit more., i believe it was Gods intention or predestination for us to be happy and to have a soul of love for our sake and for others..  If his plan wasn't for us to be full of love and to be happy,  their wouldn't be no reason for the teachings of the Bible.. If he didnt want us to be happy with ourselves and the things we can achieve with him, their would be no reason for the teachings.. but he does wants whats best for us and gives us the Bible

i think we're predestined by him just like you assume your kids will be a believer just like you.. if you child doesn't theirs nothing else you can do.. you have showed them the way to get forgiveness of the bodys sinful ways and if they choose to ignore that and lay in their own sin without letting it go.. still you and God has done their Work.. free will takes over.. testimony is all the power you have left.. can't brag about God or Jesus that places you in the wrong..

What i can't figure out,, why is it so easy to do bad habits than good habits...  we're we predestined to have bad habits? in a way i think so..


----------



## Israel

Do I rightly sometimes sense this world remains the focus of all?
As though, like Olympians, we are viewed "beneath" with baited breath "what will they do...what will they do?"

Or. Is there a throne about which all assembled rejoice, the center of all created and uncreated, whose singing heard in spirit, beckons us upward?
Where all, being settled, Whose throne remains, beyond change, beyond dispute, beyond question...sits...?

It almsot seems as though a place where questions arise is allowed for a time to "be"...where "what will God do?"...must make way for "what has God done?".



Smile if you are discovering you need an intervention.
Frown if we are OK with being the last to find out.
It is only fitting a man be undone by his God, to whom he has deemed all power and authority over himself. 

It is in the being undone by his god a man learns whether in that death, life is found...or only silence.


Either way...


Were love fairly founded on so frail a frame
to be broken on a beam 
that in our lifting our undoing shines
our strength displayed to shame.
When lies allowed are finally spoken all, 
from each to each
till only truth remains we see
was seen
what love lies laying under lying lover's tongue,
but death 
where venom swapped for spit once spoke 
from slickened lips
"I love you till you die"
when from another comes a cry
I'll not touch you till I do.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> The sermon was not just centered around Job. Job's praying was just an example of the power of prayer, not the lesson of Job.
> I can see many similarities between Job and Jesus. Jesus cried out to his Father, when in distress just as Job did.
> Job cried out to God as in blaming him for his distress.Job never did abandon God. The whole story is based on free will and predestination. God allowed Satan to test Job. Job used his free will as Satan tested him. Without free will there would be no test. You can't test someone without them having free will.
> The answer to the first question is  Job saw evil people getting away with murder and himself being punished. This could show us that good works doesn't compare to God's grace. It definitely shows us that God is in control. Don't be so righteous to think otherwise. God has the final say in everything. There is way more to Job than we could discuss here and yet it is just one Old Testament chapter of many.
> God's response to Job was, I can't do everything but I can do whatever is in my will. You don't worry about why I do the things I do, that is none of your concern. The only wisdom you need to know is to fear me and shun evil.
> Fearing God means not only his wrath but the concept of showing love with obedience and faith.
> The book of Job speaks that God indeed makes the wind blow and has the final say. It also speaks of free will; love, faith, obedience, praying, and shunning evil.
> The main lesson I get is of God's grace. Don't worry about why evil people are blessed and you aren't. Learn a few lessons on fearing Fearing God and live that way then if you pray, God will grant you blessings. Lot's of free will in that book.





Artfuldodger said:


> I could come to the conclusion that RJ was suggesting as Job did that I too was asking the wrong questions about God's ways. Perhaps I was wrong to do this as people who question things about grace, discipleship, free will, and predestination. We should just put more faith in God and not worry with wisdom so much.(other than to fear God and shun evil) I'm beginning to see how grace, discipleship, free will, and predestination overlap in the Christian equation. Just as someone who has  experienced something distressful might question God as to why, we must  reel ourselves back towards God by understanding love is a part of fearing God. So in closing, all of that would take a tremendous amount of free will. Lots of choices involved in fearing God and shunning evil. If we stay on the Love side of things, we'll all make it provided we trust in God's grace and Jesus' redemption.



Art, you just can’t surrender your personal power to God.
I’m at this point again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbs27  
I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author.


I’ll get over it
Ain’t God great?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Art, you just can’t surrender your personal power to God.
> I’m at this point again.
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by hobbs27
> I see your eyes are closed, and I'm tired of stating the obvious over and over. Art I didn't write the book, if you don't like what's in it, take it up with the author.
> 
> 
> I’ll get over it
> Ain’t God great?



My power comes from God. He gives me freedom to use it for goodness or evil.

2 Timothy 1:7
New International Version
For the Spirit God gave us does not make us timid, but gives us power, love and self-discipline.

New Living Translation
For God has not given us a spirit of fear and timidity, but of power, love, and self-discipline.

English Standard Version
for God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

I'll use this power to develop a sound mind in the principles and doctrines of the Gospel. I believe in the "Power of the Blood."


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Art, I haven’t read the posts that follow your #263, so if I’m out-of-whack as a result of that just let me know.
> 
> My evening has been spent looking at the two sermons which you introduced, Spurgeon’s and Piper’s.  I was quite favorable impressed by one and equally disappointed by the other.
> 
> My request of you is this: Look at Job, starting at Ch. 23 and keep going until you find the answers to two questions.
> 
> 1)	What did Job want to say to God when he found Him? (There is more than one answer, I’m not suggesting you dig them all out, just 2 or 3).
> 2)	What was Gods response to Job?
> 
> Then ask yourself if you still think that what you said above is a correct concerning the sermon, and, is the sermon a reliable exposition of the passage in Job.
> 
> This isn’t for me, just for your own edification.



What answers did you find in reading Job to these questions? Do you believe one must give up their free will to become a Christian? That one has free will before salvation but after becoming one with God, God completely takes over our will, even to the point we no longer make any choices or decisions? Is this what you get our of the lesson of Job?


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> What answers did you find in reading Job to these questions?



This is what I get from the story of Job concerning predestination.  Satan certainly knew whether or not God already knew the future concerning Job.  Satan made a bet with God over what decisions Job would make when confronted with a different set of circumstances.  There is no way Satan would make a bet with God over this if God  already knew the outcome.

If anyone is interested in making a bet with me, allow me to flip a coin and I'll look at it and afterward you and I can make a bet over what it was.


----------



## gemcgrew

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes on the first part of your question. No on the second part. They did have hope. They rejected him, but he knew they would reject them. He didn't make them go to he11. God dosnt send anyone to he11, the person that rejects him sends theirself there


Sorry man, I just can't embrace your blatant contradictions.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If Christians don't have the power of choice, why do we still sin? We can say my flesh still sins but by soul doesn't. We are still in our flesh. God desires obedience and love. His punishment or rewards doesn't seperate us from our choices. Having the Holy Spirit and God in our lives doesn't releave us of our responsibilities. The only thing different is our sins have been washed.


----------



## Artfuldodger

The Power of Choice


Sunday, September 27, 2009

by Dr. Paul Chappell

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ."

Ephesians 1:12

God has given us the power of choice, but once we have made the choice, it has power over us.

The Bible is filled with illustrations of decisions with which people were faced and the result of the choices they made. Joseph chose to forgive those who had cruelly mistreated him rather than harbor bitterness. Samson chose to follow lustful desires rather than God's plan for his life. Abraham chose to trust God and demonstrate that trust by being willing to offer his son as a sacrifice. Judas chose to betray Christ for financial gain. Of the two thieves crucified on either side of Jesus, one chose to mock Him while the other chose to trust Him.

God has given each of us the power of choice, but once we have made our choice, we have no power to choose the consequences. Consider Eve's choice in the Garden of Eden. Even after God gave Adam and Eve every good thing in the Garden of Eden, when Satan tempted Eve to take of the one tree God had forbidden, she yielded. 

http://www.dailyintheword.org/content/power-choice


----------



## M80

gemcgrew said:


> Sorry man, I just can't embrace your blatant contradictions.



I see no contradictions in what I said


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> If Christians don't have the power of choice, why do we still sin?
> 
> God desires obedience and love.



If God desires something and God is in complete control of everything, how could He ever not have everything He desires?


----------



## Artfuldodger

So which is it? Did I choose God or did He choose me?

It’s a sticky question – one that has divided people for centuries. If God chose me, does that mean that I don’t have any free will? Does that mean that my choices aren’t really choices at all? Does that mean that I’m nothing more than a puppet on a divine string?

On the other hand, if I chose God, does that mean that God isn’t really sovereign? Does that mean that salvation is the one area that falls outside of God’s total, sovereign control?

It’s tricky. So what does the Bible say? Surely the Bible makes one or the other clear.

Well, sort of. Scripture makes it clear that God chooses us for salvation. And scripture makes it clear that we choose God. It’s not either or, it’s both. John 1:12-13 is a perfect example of this.
 “

But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.

Who received the right to become children of God? It was those who believed in Jesus. Those who made a real choice to put their faith in Jesus Christ. This isn’t a trick verse. Those who believed in Jesus made a real choice to really believe in Jesus as the Son of God. So yes, we choose God. No doubt about it.

But something else is going on here. Those who believed in Jesus were born again. How? Not of blood, meaning not of any sort of natural birth. They also weren’t born again by the will of the flesh or the will of man. I understand this to mean that they weren’t born again because of anything they did. They absolutely could not cause themselves to be born again. Being born again is something that God and only God does.

Now, here’s the crucial question: did they choose God and then were born again, or were they born again and then chose God? Acts 16:14 is very helpful in answering this question. Speaking of Lydia, it says, “The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul.” In other words, God made her spiritually dead heart come alive so that she could hear and respond to the gospel message. Another helpful verse is John 6:65, where Jesus says, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

So do we choose God? Absolutely. We make a real to choice to repent of our sins and choose to follow God. But, scripture is also clear that God chooses us before we choose him. The Bible doesn’t try to reconcile these two truths, but instead presents them side by side.

http://www.theblazingcenter.com/2011/01/do-we-choose-god-or-does-god-choose-us.html


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> If God desires something and God is in complete control of everything, how could He ever not have everything He desires?



1 Timothy 2:3-5
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

I think it has to do with God's will and not his power. He could use his power to recieve anything he desires yet he doesn't desire anyone to perish. It is his will that everyone accepts His son as their savior.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it has to do with God's will and not his power. He could use his power to recieve anything he desires yet he doesn't desire anyone to perish. It is his will that everyone accepts His son as their savior.



So, if God, having the power to do something, chooses not to use that power, why can't He choose not to know the future?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> So, if God, having the power to do something, chooses not to use that power, why can't He choose not to know the future?



I don't have a problem with God doing that and perhaps he does.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I like to compare my life with my children the way God compares us to being his children. God is our Father. He is all powerful.
I have power over my children from the time they are born until we no longer have any type of relationship. I can use my power as needed, granting control, pusnishment, and rewards. My desire is for my children to develop good choices in every aspect of their lives. I do set limits within their realm of self control. I can control them with power or guidance. I can reel them in with my power if need be. As they mature, they get more self control with just guidance from me. When they are young they get more control from me by me using my power.
My desire is different from my power.
Each one of us has a different relationship with each of our children. This is based on our childrens will and how they use this will to love and obey. We don't always use the same punishment for each kid. We do love all of our children but our relationship is based on their actions and our actions for that matter.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> What answers did you find in reading Job to these questions? Do you believe one must give up their free will to become a Christian? That one has free will before salvation but after becoming one with God, God completely takes over our will, even to the point we no longer make any choices or decisions? Is this what you get our of the lesson of Job?



Art, you have more people's opinions to consider than anybody I've ever known (by a factor of at least 4).  Of what eternal value is another?

Just occured to me that I don't recall having seen a linked post from you that gave a thoughtful monergistic view.  What's up with that?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Art, you have more people's opinions to consider than anybody I've ever known (by a factor of at least 4).  Of what eternal value is another?
> 
> Just occured to me that I don't recall having seen a linked post from you that gave a thoughtful monergistic view.  What's up with that?



Jesus continues to speak to His people through His servants, the ministers of the Gospel."-William Hendriksen

I depend on his servants. Maybe I can find something on Monergism by Hendriksen. Would he be considered a good servant? Would having a reformed view give me a better insight into the Book of Revelation?


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have a problem with God doing that and perhaps he does.



Is it superstition? Magic? These "powers" God has?
GOD is all power.


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> One thing that I have noticed is that every attempt to refute predestination reduces God to something far less than what he is.



Gem , I'm not taking side in this debate, I think you all are equally right and equally wrong....Well some more wrong than others.. But I am always impressed with you and a couple others ability to defend your position of predestination. 
I am equally impressed with Ronnie's ability to debate free will, and have learned from both sides of the debate. I just have to admit I don't know...maybe our freewill is predestined? 

I don't however think that refuting predestination reduces God in the least. I understand why you would say that, but I believe that would only pertain to those that believe in salvation by works/sacraments. I don't believe there would be sin in this world if God had not given us just a little freewill, we do that on our own in spite of grace.


----------



## Israel

It's not necessarily a matter , for me, of trying to prove "predestination" at all, have no issue with it.
But what comes out of these discussions discloses our understandings...
Some, it almost appears, seem to believe "God is somewhere"...being somewhere, like a man sitting in a room, who has access to certain "powers". 

If he concentrates...he can "see the future"...but of course, he can choose not to. 

This exercise of God makes him far less than the one who, really, if you will and can...not only occupies all time and space at once...but in truth, can kinda make time and space into something far less than we presently consider them. The "vastness" of space!
The great length of time!
Really...not only nothing compared to God, but actually non existent should he so choose.


God...is ...subject to nothing.


----------



## HawgJawl

Israel said:


> Really...not only nothing compared to God, but actually non existent should he so choose.
> 
> 
> God...is ...subject to nothing.



If God is subject to absolutely nothing, then why did God have to sacrifice His only begotten Son?


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> If God is subject to absolutely nothing, then why did God have to sacrifice His only begotten Son?



He didn't have to.


----------



## HawgJawl

HawgJawl said:


> If God is subject to absolutely nothing, then why did God have to sacrifice His only begotten Son?





hobbs27 said:


> He didn't have to.



However you want to state the reasoning for sacrificing His only begotten Son, why couldn"t God just say "Hey guys, there's a new covenant" instead of sacrificing his Son?


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> Is it superstition? Magic? These "powers" God has?
> GOD is all power.


And understanding that God is all power, for anything else to appear to have power in any real sense, it would have to be derived from where?


----------



## M80

HawgJawl said:


> If God is subject to absolutely nothing, then why did God have to sacrifice His only begotten Son?



To demonstrate his love torwards us


----------



## M80

Israel said:


> It's not necessarily a matter , for me, of trying to prove "predestination" at all, have no issue with it.
> But what comes out of these discussions discloses our understandings...
> Some, it almost appears, seem to believe "God is somewhere"...being somewhere, like a man sitting in a room, who has access to certain "powers".
> 
> If he concentrates...he can "see the future"...but of course, he can choose not to.
> 
> This exercise of God makes him far less than the one who, really, if you will and can...not only occupies all time and space at once...but in truth, can kinda make time and space into something far less than we presently consider them. The "vastness" of space!
> The great length of time!
> Really...not only nothing compared to God, but actually non existent should he so choose.
> 
> 
> God...is ...subject to nothing.



Amen, has it ever occurred to y'all that nothing has occurred to God


----------



## ambush80

mwilliams80 said:


> Yes on the first part of your question. No on the second part. They did have hope. They rejected him, but he knew they would reject them. He didn't make them go to he11. God dosnt send anyone to he11, the person that rejects him sends theirself there





gemcgrew said:


> Sorry man, I just can't embrace your blatant contradictions.





mwilliams80 said:


> I see no contradictions in what I said



MW,

If God knows that I am Going to He11 before I was born, then when exactly did I get to make a choice?



Gem,

Maybe God turns off his omniscience power sometimes so that he can be surprised by our decisions.


----------



## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> Gem , I'm not taking side in this debate, I think you all are equally right and equally wrong....Well some more wrong than others.. But I am always impressed with you and a couple others ability to defend your position of predestination.
> I am equally impressed with Ronnie's ability to debate free will, and have learned from both sides of the debate. I just have to admit I don't know...maybe our freewill is predestined?


Then our will is not free from the determination of something other than ourselves. Nobody is debating on whether we have a will or not. We are actually discussing human freedom, relative to the Creator. I just see some here that are given to whittle away at God's attributes. They end up with a god that is nothing more than.... them.


hobbs27 said:


> I don't however think that refuting predestination reduces God in the least. I understand why you would say that, but I believe that would only pertain to those that believe in salvation by works/sacraments. I don't believe there would be sin in this world if God had not given us just a little freewill, we do that on our own in spite of grace.


I do not see sin as relative to freewill at all. I was born sin and sinning is what I do.


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> Gem,
> 
> Maybe God turns off his omniscience power sometimes so that he can be surprised by our decisions.


I believe that he would cease to be the God of the Bible.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> However you want to state the reasoning for sacrificing His only begotten Son, why couldn"t God just say "Hey guys, there's a new covenant" instead of sacrificing his Son?



With a small adjustment in my attitude, your attempts to second guess and provide options for God would be the finest comedy show I had ever seen.

That finale could be great.

Stage note: God speaks to Hawg out of the whirlwind.
"Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man Hawg, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!"  (I'm sure I would need medical assistance by the end of the 5 pages of monologue that follow)


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> With a small adjustment in my attitude, your attempts to second guess and provide options for God would be the finest comedy show I had ever seen.
> 
> That finale could be great.
> 
> Stage note: God speaks to Hawg out of the whirlwind.
> "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man Hawg, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!"  (I'm sure I would need medical assistance by the end of the 5 pages of dialogue that follow)




We ask a lot of questions here in this forum, from absurd to very thought provoking. The question I most often ask myself, is just a very simple, "Why me?"


----------



## M80

ambush80 said:


> MW,
> 
> If God knows that I am Going to He11 before I was born, then when exactly did I get to make a choice?
> 
> 
> 
> Gem,
> 
> Maybe God turns off his omniscience power sometimes so that he can be surprised by our decisions.



Your making this decision right now and every other time if your lost you reject him. Although God knows what your end result will be. Your living it right now. It's your decision to make. I'm about to get ready and go to revival meeting tonight but if you ever need me or anyone on here to help you please message me and I'll give you my number. We might debate but my ultimate goal is to see the lost saved. I don't know if your saved or not but if someone gets saved through these discussions than glory be to God.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> We ask a lot of questions here in this forum, from absurd to very thought provoking. The question I most often ask myself, is just a very simple, "Why me?"


----------



## Israel

"everything is open and laid bare before him with whom we have to do..."
I think I used to think I knew what omniscience meant...in that, even in my darkest soul of rebellion, I could muster a definition.
"Easy," I would say as I waved my arm from the back of the room "call on me! call on me! I know, I know! ooh...oooh!" Like the nerd from Welcome Back Kotter. 
"It means "knowing everything"...see...? I toldja I knew!"

OK, who knows what grace means?

"Oh, please, call on me again, c'mon...one more time...just once more!" 

It means unmeritted favor!
(I like this game!)

OK, one last question...who knows what mercy means?


"Oh, I know I said one last time before, but this time I really really mean it!

Mercy is showing someone kindness who doesn't deserve it and withholding wrath from someone who does deserve it!
How'd I do? How'd I do?

"Well" said the teacher, "suppose I were to tell you that in my omniscience and grace and mercy, all is working together to keep you while you think you know what those things mean?"


oh...


----------



## Artfuldodger

Eve's heart was sinless and yet she received Satan's suggested thoughts. How was this possible? Why was she lead into temptation?
If a sinless person can't do it, how can we? Why can't we even in our new birth? The confusing part to me regardless of freewill or predestination pertains to this verse:

Matthew 7:18
A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.

I thought Adam and Eve were made "very good." And, when good Christians sin, is it not bad fruit? What happened to Grace?
This may be a tad off topic but, but the topic made me think of Adam & Eve and fruit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you. Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ. Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?  I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius; Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name” (1st Corinthians 1:10-15).


----------



## Ronnie T

hummerpoo said:


> With a small adjustment in my attitude, your attempts to second guess and provide options for God would be the finest comedy show I had ever seen.
> That finale could be great.
> 
> Stage note: God speaks to Hawg out of the whirlwind.
> "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man Hawg, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!"  (I'm sure I would need medical assistance by the end of the 5 pages of monologue that follow)




But, that also goes for me, and for you, and for everyone else who professes to know what and why God did and does.  God never asked any of us to "figure Him out".  His just send the Lord's disciples out to make disciples.

So that's what we do.  Be student followers of the Son of God.  Amen?


----------



## M80

Amen^^^^^


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> With a small adjustment in my attitude, your attempts to second guess and provide options for God would be the finest comedy show I had ever seen.
> 
> That finale could be great.
> 
> Stage note: God speaks to Hawg out of the whirlwind.
> "Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge? Now gird up your loins like a man Hawg, and I will ask you, and you instruct Me!"  (I'm sure I would need medical assistance by the end of the 5 pages of monologue that follow)


 
I must agree with Ronnie on your approach. Not with his free will belief but your reasoning. At what point or what questions can we ask? Why can you ask but not others without being accused of acting like Job? 
Where is your meekness, where is mine? What can we ask before we've asked too much? How humble can we be before we are too humble? Can we argue our point to God in prayer? 

Meakness by William Hendriksen
Expounding Matthew 5:4, "Blessed are the meak for they shall inherit the earth" Hendriksen says,

    "Yet meekness is not weakness. Meekness is not spinelessness, the characteristics of the person who is ready to bow before every breeze. It is submissiveness under provocation, the willingness rather to suffer than to inflict injury. The meek person leaves everything in the hand of him who loves and cares."


----------



## Artfuldodger

I do follow  Hendriksen on having a willingness to suffer. I'm sure Job would agree now than before his test. 
Suffering, maybe that would be a good topic and how it relates to blessings.
What Christian hasn't asked or said "why have you placed this burden on me" to God including even Jesus.


----------



## hummerpoo

I accept my admonishment readily, as it is not unanticipated, and with esteem for the inspired wisdom of Solomon (Pr. 12:1).  My words were spoken hesitantly, although deliberately.

Certainly, no one “had his father’s wife”, but evidence shows that I am not alone in my opinion that there has been an offence.  Many have “encouraged the fainthearted”, there has been no end of “help for the weak”, and “patience” has been abundantly applied.  There has even been a degree of “admonishment of the unruly” from time to time, with no apparent effect.  I thought to intensify that degree, and am told that my zeal in “seeking after that which is good” has instead yielded something that more closely resembles “evil for evil”.  I value that judgment, and seek our Father’s forgiveness and yours.

Now I rejoice in His perfect provision of my brothers, in time and space, to fulfill my need; and rejoice even more, as I anticipate His guidance in aligning to the path which is neither right nor left of His perfect law. (Jos. 1:7)


Romans 5:
14.  We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
 15.  See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.


----------



## Israel

hummerpoo said:


> I accept my admonishment readily, as it is not unanticipated, and with esteem for the inspired wisdom of Solomon (Pr. 12:1).  My words were spoken hesitantly, although deliberately.
> 
> Certainly, no one “had his father’s wife”, but evidence shows that I am not alone in my opinion that there has been an offence.  Many have “encouraged the fainthearted”, there has been no end of “help for the weak”, and “patience” has been abundantly applied.  There has even been a degree of “admonishment of the unruly” from time to time, with no apparent effect.  I thought to intensify that degree, and am told that my zeal in “seeking after that which is good” has instead yielded something that more closely resembles “evil for evil”.  I value that judgment, and seek our Father’s forgiveness and yours.
> 
> Now I rejoice in His perfect provision of my brothers, in time and space, to fulfill my need; and rejoice even more, as I anticipate His guidance in aligning to the path which is neither right nor left of His perfect law. (Jos. 1:7)
> 
> 
> Romans 5:
> 14.  We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.
> 15.  See that no one repays another with evil for evil, but always seek after that which is good for one another and for all people.



Appearing, by question, as a seeker of truth is a very inviting posture. I find, however, the Lord is not impressed by posture.

A man may discover he has lied frequently on his knees while the closest he has come to being in truth was striding in defiance shaking his fist at heaven in imprecations.


Some ask, "why am I vilified for asking"...when the question is framed as "why does God do this, why does God allow that" When, perhaps, one might see another questioned unframed. 

"Why doesn't God act to my approval according to my sense of righteousness?"

Well, for starters, no one would be here to ask.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Gem , I'm not taking side in this debate, I think you all are equally right and equally wrong....Well some more wrong than others.. But I am always impressed with you and a couple others ability to defend your position of predestination.
> I am equally impressed with Ronnie's ability to debate free will, and have learned from both sides of the debate. I just have to admit I don't know...maybe our freewill is predestined?
> 
> I don't however think that refuting predestination reduces God in the least. I understand why you would say that, but I believe that would only pertain to those that believe in salvation by works/sacraments. I don't believe there would be sin in this world if God had not given us just a little freewill, we do that on our own in spite of grace.



I agree with your assessment of Gem & Ronnie's ability to debate. We could look at both as guidance on how to do it. For the most part I feel we all do alright. Way better than most of the guys on the Political Forum. 
Some people kinda lost it on this thread which turned into a free will & predestination debate:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=357960&highlight=hendriksen


----------



## ambush80

mwilliams80 said:


> Your making this decision right now and every other time if your lost you reject him. Although God knows what your end result will be. Your living it right now. It's your decision to make. I'm about to get ready and go to revival meeting tonight but if you ever need me or anyone on here to help you please message me and I'll give you my number. We might debate but my ultimate goal is to see the lost saved. I don't know if your saved or not but if someone gets saved through these discussions than glory be to God.



I'm not sure you've thought this through. 

 Just say "I don't know how He does it."  like everyone else.


----------



## M80

ambush80 said:


> I'm not sure you've thought this through.
> 
> Just say "I don't know how He does it."  like everyone else.



I don't know but I believe the bible when it says "with God all things are possible"

I'm not debating Gods omniscient, I know he knows all before the foundation of the world. My thing is God don't pick and choose who is going to heaven, that's the individuals decision.  If you believe he is all knowing(and I do), is it to hard to understand that before the foundation of the world he for knew all our life's and saw us make all our decision, salvation and our prayer life


----------



## HawgJawl

I keep getting accused of questioning God as if I'm wanting God to explain why He didn't do it my way.  That is not the case.  I am disagreeing with someone who explains their reasoning for why they think God did something and asking them to apply THEIR same reasoning to another situation.  Whenever you see me type something like: "Well, then why did God do this?" just go ahead and automatically insert these words: "I disagree with your understanding and explanation of how God operates and why God does certain things certain ways but if you were correct, then why does that same explanation fail to work in this scenario?".


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> I keep getting accused of questioning God as if I'm wanting God to explain why He didn't do it my way.  That is not the case.  I am disagreeing with someone who explains their reasoning for why they think God did something and asking them to apply THEIR same reasoning to another situation.  Whenever you see me type something like: "Well, then why did God do this?" just go ahead and automatically insert these words: "I disagree with your understanding and explanation of how God operates and why God does certain things certain ways but if you were correct, then why does that same explanation fail to work in this scenario?".




If I could supply the reason of "why" God is good, and has always been good to me in particular, even when I didn't see it...I could hope we may share eternity to have him show...his "why".


----------



## warmouth

rjcruiser said:


> Seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> 1. He Predestined
> 2. He Called
> 3. He Justified
> 4. He Glorified
> 
> Looks like Salvation is from God....not much room in there for "me" and "I"



Ding ding ding... We have a winner. 
And to the OP.....I would suggest always reading the full context of all scripture. It really takes a thorough reading of Romans to grasp the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man. Man is not free to choose because man is a slave to sin. Sin is his master. He needs a supernatural awakening, which is regeneration,  which leads to repentance, which leads to forgiveness,  which none can be resisted. Can one lump of clay say to the potter "why have you made me like this?"


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Ding ding ding... We have a winner.
> And to the OP.....I would suggest always reading the full context of all scripture. It really takes a thorough reading of Romans to grasp the sovereignty of God in the salvation of man. Man is not free to choose because man is a slave to sin. Sin is his master. He needs a supernatural awakening, which is regeneration,  which leads to repentance, which leads to forgiveness,  which none can be resisted. Can one lump of clay say to the potter "why have you made me like this?"



Then why does this new person whose will is suddenly replaced with God's will keep on sinning? If this person never had his own will, why was it God's will that he sin? Is God himself not powerful enough to stop one of his new reborn followers from sinning? 
I believe he has the power but it isn't in his plan to use his power for that purpose.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> Then why does this new person whose will is suddenly replaced with God's will keep on sinning? If this person never had his own will, why was it God's will that he sin? Is God himself not powerful enough to stop one of his new reborn followers from sinning?
> I believe he has the power but it isn't in his plan to use his power for that purpose.



Scripture is 100% clear that man is sinful by nature. Can you not teach a dog to lay down, roll over, sit, and retrieve ducks? Even though this dog has been changed from the average dog, it is still a dog. Salvation isnt a 1 time thing. It is a work only complete upon the resurrection.  That is when we will be glorified and in our complete form. Since the fall of man, we are sinners, and we will continue what our nature is until we are with Jesus. The difference between a christian and a non is the indwelling of thr Holy Spirit. When we sin, we have the Spirit fighting against our flesh.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> Then our will is not free from the determination of something other than ourselves. Nobody is debating on whether we have a will or not. We are actually discussing human freedom, relative to the Creator. I just see some here that are given to whittle away at God's attributes. They end up with a god that is nothing more than.... them.
> 
> I do not see sin as relative to freewill at all. I was born sin and sinning is what I do.



I thought that's what the debate was all about.  I think I've seen where you've written that all of our acts, words, and thoughts are from God.

As far as human freedom verses our Creator; we only have the freedom that God has commanded that we have...... and even that can be taken from us.
.


----------



## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Gem , I'm not taking side in this debate, I think you all are equally right and equally wrong....Well some more wrong than others.. But I am always impressed with you and a couple others ability to defend your position of predestination.
> I am equally impressed with Ronnie's ability to debate free will, and have learned from both sides of the debate. I just have to admit I don't know...maybe our freewill is predestined?
> 
> I don't however think that refuting predestination reduces God in the least. I understand why you would say that, but I believe that would only pertain to those that believe in salvation by works/sacraments. I don't believe there would be sin in this world if God had not given us just a little freewill, we do that on our own in spite of grace.



I need to get hold of myself because in all honesty I'm probably too dumb to debate much of anything.  That's why I try to use lots of scripture, and not single stand-alone scripture.

The full voice of the teachings of Christ and His apostles must provide the basis for the lives that we live.  Not  my debate or anyone else's debate.

I'm totally with you concerning your last statement above.  But only because it's in line with everything taught by Christ and those who were His.


----------



## HawgJawl

warmouth said:


> Scripture is 100% clear that man is sinful by nature.
> 
> Since the fall of man, we are sinners, and we will continue what our nature is until we are with Jesus. The difference between a christian and a non is the indwelling of thr Holy Spirit. When we sin, we have the Spirit fighting against our flesh.



I still haven't heard an answer for Art's post about how and why Eve sinned prior to the fall of man, especially if she was "good" and had no choices of her own.



Artfuldodger said:


> Eve's heart was sinless and yet she received Satan's suggested thoughts. How was this possible? Why was she lead into temptation?
> If a sinless person can't do it, how can we? Why can't we even in our new birth? The confusing part to me regardless of freewill or predestination pertains to this verse:
> 
> Matthew 7:18
> A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
> 
> I thought Adam and Eve were made "very good." And, when good Christians sin, is it not bad fruit? What happened to Grace?
> This may be a tad off topic but, but the topic made me think of Adam & Eve and fruit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Scripture is 100% clear that man is sinful by nature. Can you not teach a dog to lay down, roll over, sit, and retrieve ducks? Even though this dog has been changed from the average dog, it is still a dog. Salvation isnt a 1 time thing. It is a work only complete upon the resurrection.  That is when we will be glorified and in our complete form. Since the fall of man, we are sinners, and we will continue what our nature is until we are with Jesus. The difference between a christian and a non is the indwelling of thr Holy Spirit. When we sin, we have the Spirit fighting against our flesh.



I 100% agree with what you said, but in answering this or my question about Eve, why don't we stop sinning the moment the Holy Spirit dwells in us? We're talking about God entering and taking control of us. It appears at this point we now have to wills or spirits within us. The goal should be for our spirit to eventually be more like Jesus as we mature. It isn't a one time thing.


----------



## Israel

Artfuldodger said:


> I 100% agree with what you said, but in answering this or my question about Eve, why don't we stop sinning the moment the Holy Spirit dwells in us? We're talking about God entering and taking control of us. It appears at this point we now have to wills or spirits within us. The goal should be for our spirit to eventually be more like Jesus as we mature. It isn't a one time thing.


The old man sees one will.
The new man sees his own, and is made aware of another.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Israel said:


> The old man sees one will.
> The new man sees his own, and is made aware of another.



And from Watchman Nee:

The Holy Spirit moves in our spirit, producing in us a spiritual sense; afterwards we exercise our brain to study and to understand the meaning of this sense. It requires the cooperation of both spirit and mind to comprehend fully the will of God. The spirit enables our inner man to know, while the mind causes our outer man to understand.


----------



## Ronnie T

God knew.  When Jonah disobeyed and went upon the ship, God knew.  
When Jonah went into the water, God knew.  
When the fish swallowed Jonah, God knew.
When Jonah sat in the shade whining, God knew.
When God removed the shade(I liked that part), Jonah knew.
.


----------



## 1222DANO

Banjo Picker said:


> So thats why he ask him who told you thou was naked.




Wondering who was it that told them they we're naked, was it Gods decision or predetermined punishment for disobeying him.. I mean even now we cannot explain exactly who our God is but we just know him through the power he has shown us.. So God used this against them to say ''who told you thou was naked''...   there is consequences for peoples actions don't know about if their predetermined or not.. God holds the ultimate consequences or blessing.. determined by what action you choose..  

The serpent told her how wonderful it was and she sided with the serpent and picked the fruit.


Either way it wasn't how God created us to be, We choose to disobey and pick the fruit despite Gods word.. beginning of sin and its only continued to get worse and worse until God interceded with his Son Jesus Christ.. Now its still seems to get worse and worse... maybe not i don't know maybe getting better...


----------



## Artfuldodger

After eating the fruit and gaining knowledge of right & wrong it did something to them. Something changed in their minds & spirits. At that point they had to start making choices and using their judgement.
Suddenly they as themselves, were aware of their nakedness. I would say God knew they were suddenly aware of their nakedness too. Their own conscience told them they were naked.
God wanted to hear from them to answer. They had to start making choices of judgement as they now knew right from wrong. They were no longer innocent.

So my question is, How did Eve come by being tempted, with all of her innocence?
She fell before the fall.


----------



## HawgJawl

Artfuldodger said:


> After eating the fruit and gaining knowledge of right & wrong it did something to them. Something changed in their minds & spirits. At that point they had to start making choices and using their judgement.
> Suddenly they as themselves, were aware of their nakedness. I would say God knew they were suddenly aware of their nakedness too. Their own conscience told them they were naked.
> God wanted to hear from them to answer. They had to start making choices of judgement as they now knew right from wrong. They were no longer innocent.
> 
> So my question is, How did Eve come by being tempted, with all of her innocence?
> She fell before the fall.



Was it wrong for Adam and Eve to be naked?  Is it a sin for a man and his wife to be naked in front of each other with no one else around?


----------



## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> God knew.  When Jonah disobeyed and went upon the ship, God knew.
> When Jonah went into the water, God knew.
> When the fish swallowed Jonah, God knew.
> When Jonah sat in the shade whining, God knew.
> When God removed the shade(I liked that part), Jonah knew.
> .



Me too. We find a comfortable place from which to observe and complain...until...


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> Was it wrong for Adam and Eve to be naked?  Is it a sin for a man and his wife to be naked in front of each other with no one else around?



I don't know why they suddenly felt naked. Why did an awareness of sin or sinning make them aware of their nakedness or why is nakedness associated with the event? I'm not sure if the Bible even tells us. Some people say it isn't literal as in there bodies being naked but if that's the case why did they wear leaves and then God covered them with animal skins.
That's a good question as to what nakedness had to do with the event.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> Me too. We find a comfortable place from which to observe and complain...until...



I imagine God saying "Look.  They think they're making decisions."


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> I imagine God saying "Look.  They think they're making decisions."


I think I am understanding what you mean.
At least in the sense that perhaps we don't know where our attitudes, and therefore, motives arise?
Is it my last good meal speaking? A recent disappointment over an altercation with a spouse? Pain in my lower back?
The world is wonderful when Publisher's Clearing House shows up at my door...but less so when it's the tax assessor?
Is that kinda it?
And my judgments may be influenced by all?
Or, do you just mean that no matter our seeming attempts to influence anything...all is already decided?


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> I think I am understanding what you mean.
> At least in the sense that perhaps we don't know where our attitudes, and therefore, motives arise?
> Is it my last good meal speaking? A recent disappointment over an altercation with a spouse? Pain in my lower back?
> The world is wonderful when Publisher's Clearing House shows up at my door...but less so when it's the tax assessor?
> Is that kinda it?
> And my judgments may be influenced by all?



I suppose it is that kind of a thing but I believe that your attitude and your motives are the only things that you really have control over whether you're suffering from heart burn or myocardial infarction .


----------



## gemcgrew

ambush80 said:


> I suppose it is that kind of a thing but I believe that your attitude and your motives are the only things that you really have control over whether you're suffering from heart burn or myocardial infarction .


I don't know man, heart burn forces me do things that I normally wouldn't do. My brother has had a heart attack and it definitely changed his attitude and motives. Cause and effect?


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> I suppose it is that kind of a thing but I believe that your attitude and your motives are the only things that you really have control over whether you're suffering from heart burn or myocardial infarction .


Well that's an interesting choice of comparatives.
There's a whole of a spiritual invitation there, but, I pass, at least for now.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> So thats why he ask him who told you thou was naked.



After being aware of their nakedness and covering themselves with leaves, God made them coverings of animal skins. Does this have anything to do or a beginning of blood sacrifices? If so was the blood sacrifices, including the lamb,  a prophecy of Jesus coming as the final sacrifice?

If so this would mean plan B was quickly thought up or was already foreseen by God. If not the skins, shortly after leaving the Garden, animals sacrifices were required. 
When were we first given the account of a savior born of a woman coming in the future?


----------



## warmouth

HawgJawl said:


> I still haven't heard an answer for Art's post about how and why Eve sinned prior to the fall of man, especially if she was "good" and had no choices of her own.



Because eve was not born with original sin.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> I 100% agree with what you said, but in answering this or my question about Eve, why don't we stop sinning the moment the Holy Spirit dwells in us? We're talking about God entering and taking control of us. It appears at this point we now have to wills or spirits within us. The goal should be for our spirit to eventually be more like Jesus as we mature. It isn't a one time thing.



Artful, I think youre being facetious  lol!  I see what youre saying, and the best reason I can think goes back to the dog analogy. We are being made perfect, and in the end, we will be, THANK GOD! Paul mentions that he does what he dont want to do, etc..... so even Paul struggled with the flesh. God has made us righteous before Him. This dont mean we stop sinning because we still have our human nature, yet not the Holy Spirit, and they are at war with eachother. The difference now, as aposed to our regeneration, is that we now have an escape. Our wanters change, our desire is to God (ALTHOUGH WE STILL STRUGGLE) and we cant just "get saved and live like - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -". When I see people like this, red flags go off and I have to question if the know Jesus or not. When I see a christian fall into a devious sin, like adultry, and see the suffering and turmoil, the knowing right from wrong and a true brokeness over there actions, THEN I say, "now there is something there".


----------



## warmouth

Guys, this might make a few mad, and I am not trying to stir the pot, but God knew before He created Adam that he was going to sin. That was the plan all along. There is a Triune God we serve, and the plan of redemption had Adam to sin. Enter Christ. The new Adam. He did what Adam couldnt because this was the will of the Trinity to display their power and love in tbe redemption of man. From eternity past, Jesus was the answer.


----------



## warmouth

Btw, I'm not a potty mouth. I didnt even know that was against the rules. I think yall know what I said, lol. Not heaven, but ----.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

warmouth said:


> Guys, this might make a few mad, and I am not trying to stir the pot, but God knew before He created Adam that he was going to sin. That was the plan all along. There is a Triune God we serve, and the plan of redemption had Adam to sin. Enter Christ. The new Adam. He did what Adam couldnt because this was the will of the Trinity to display their power and love in tbe redemption of man. From eternity past, Jesus was the answer.


I am Christian, but I don't wear the same blinders. I see the problems that are associated with the faith. Your post has me thinking that your God created a mess, not a masterpiece. Do you realize that you just accused God of all the murders of children, rape, etc? I have not read any from this thread. Your post was the first. I usually stay away from debates like this. But it's not fair for me to comment on your post without having my own answer. I was just voiceing how it looks, how it will be received from the critical eye. I need to study the argument rather than avoid it as I have.


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Because eve was not born with original sin.



How or what possessed Eve to do what she did? She didn't use any of her on will or being? Adam & Eve were born without sin yet they still sinned, why? 
Is your only answer because God made them do it? He made Adam sin so that he could give us Jesus(himself), to save us from himself(wrath of God)?


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Artful, I think youre being facetious  lol!  I see what youre saying, and the best reason I can think goes back to the dog analogy. We are being made perfect, and in the end, we will be, THANK GOD! Paul mentions that he does what he dont want to do, etc..... so even Paul struggled with the flesh. God has made us righteous before Him. This dont mean we stop sinning because we still have our human nature, yet not the Holy Spirit, and they are at war with eachother. The difference now, as aposed to our regeneration, is that we now have an escape. Our wanters change, our desire is to God (ALTHOUGH WE STILL STRUGGLE) and we cant just "get saved and live like - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -". When I see people like this, red flags go off and I have to question if the know Jesus or not. When I see a christian fall into a devious sin, like adultry, and see the suffering and turmoil, the knowing right from wrong and a true brokeness over there actions, THEN I say, "now there is something there".



The only point I was trying to make or understand is even though a Christian has the Holy Spirit, he still has his own spirit and flesh. I explain this as free will and you don't.
How do you explain it? What makes this person still socumb to his flesh or own spirit? Not anything like a general "natural sin" answer but what exactly makes an individual perform a sin? What could me, say at 9:30am, see a pretty girl walk by and get lust in my heart? You really don't think it has anything to do with my will? Can I really just blame this on my old self instead of my will?


----------



## 1222DANO

Artfuldodger said:


> How or what possessed Eve to do what she did? She didn't use any of her on will or being?




Lead us not into Temptation,,, Temptation's are easier for some than others.. but tempted by the right person,place,time anyone can be tempted into doing almost anything..


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## Artfuldodger

1222DANO said:


> Lead us not into Temptation,,, Temptation's are easier for some than others.. but tempted by the right person,place,time anyone can be tempted into doing almost anything..



Would not one need their own will to be tempted?


----------



## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> I am Christian, but I don't wear the same blinders. I see the problems that are associated with the faith. Your post has me thinking that your God created a mess, not a masterpiece. Do you realize that you just accused God of all the murders of children, rape, etc? I have not read any from this thread. Your post was the first. I usually stay away from debates like this. But it's not fair for me to comment on your post without having my own answer. I was just voiceing how it looks, how it will be received from the critical eye. I need to study the argument rather than avoid it as I have.


"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:19-21)

I see God as saying, "I am omnipotent and therefor the ultimate cause of all things. I am the Creator and I have specific purpose. Who are you to question it?"


----------



## HawgJawl

warmouth said:


> Scripture is 100% clear that man is sinful by nature.
> 
> Since the fall of man, we are sinners, and we will continue what our nature is until we are with Jesus.





HawgJawl said:


> I still haven't heard an answer for Art's post about how and why Eve sinned prior to the fall of man, especially if she was "good" and had no choices of her own.





warmouth said:


> Because eve was not born with original sin.



We are sinful by nature because of original sin.  Sin is our default setting.

Eve was not born with original sin.  Eve was "good", therefore sin was not her default setting.

We can always answer the question "Why does man sin?" with "Because of original sin."  But we can't use that answer for Eve.


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Romans 9:19-21)
> 
> I see God as saying, "I am omnipotent and therefor the ultimate cause of all things. I am the Creator and I have specific purpose. Who are you to question it?"



There is a HUGE difference between questioning God and questioning a person's opinion of how God operates. 

I could tell you that I am certain that God eats Fruitloops for breakfast every morning.  If you question that assertion, I could just as easily post what you did about the clay questioning the potter.  A person would need to be pretty confident in their complete understanding of God's mind and God's ways in order to elevate their personal opinion to the same level as God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> There is a HUGE difference between questioning God and questioning a person's opinion of how God operates.
> 
> I could tell you that I am certain that God eats Fruitloops for breakfast every morning.  If you question that assertion, I could just as easily post what you did about the clay questioning the potter.  A person would need to be pretty confident in their complete understanding of God's mind and God's ways in order to elevate their personal opinion to the same level as God.



We could easily end all of these debates with one answer "God."
Who are we to even try to understand God's ways? Just a response to one of these threads makes one guilty.


----------



## ambush80

Artfuldodger said:


> We could easily end all of these debates with one answer "God."
> Who are we to even try to understand God's ways? Just a response to one of these threads makes one guilty.



Guilty of what?  I see that verse as saying "You can ask all you want but you are undeserving of an answer".


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> We could easily end all of these debates with one answer "God."



Rev. 1:
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Rev. 1:
> 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
> 
> 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”



Are these verses about God, Jesus, or both. Who are the seven spirits? I think verse 4 is about God and verses 5,6, & 7 are about Jesus.
Verse 8 is God. 
I agree everything is about the Kingdom of God. Even Jesus taught this.


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## hummerpoo

hummerpoo said:


> Rev. 1:
> 4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace, from Him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven Spirits who are before His throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father—to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
> 
> 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”



God


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree everything is about the Kingdom of God. Even Jesus taught this.



The kingdom is about God.


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## hobbs27

I wonder why God predestined us to be divided by denominations as Christians?


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## Artfuldodger

God tells us to love our enemies, help people who won't help us, & do good things to people who hate us. 
Is that God's purpose for these people, as our proving ground? We needed a certain amount of bad people to practice on? It's easy to love or help someone who loves us in return but it's not so easy to help someone who hates us.


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## Artfuldodger

In the Old Testament God punished nations collectively for sinfulness or disobedience, but still judged men for salvation based on their individual relationship with God.
God blessing or punishing nations certainly says we have the free will to warrant these blessings or punishment but at the same time it removes a certain amount of our free will by his predestination statements of how he treats nations. 
Was blessing or punishing nations just an Old Testament way of God or did he continue this practice into the New Testament?


----------



## warmouth

1gr8bldr said:


> I am Christian, but I don't wear the same blinders. I see the problems that are associated with the faith. Your post has me thinking that your God created a mess, not a masterpiece. Do you realize that you just accused God of all the murders of children, rape, etc? I have not read any from this thread. Your post was the first. I usually stay away from debates like this. But it's not fair for me to comment on your post without having my own answer. I was just voiceing how it looks, how it will be received from the critical eye. I need to study the argument rather than avoid it as I have.



Thats cool man. Im not trying to debate, just stating that so that it will cause deeper study hopefully because thatnis my intent. And I didnt necessarily acuse God of the said offences, but I dont think He was suprised, and I do feel He is the one who allowed it to happen. This can go a few ways. God allowed sin to happen, God had no idea sin would happen, or He was taken by suprise by the actions of man. I choose the first. Why allow the serpent to tempt? This is fundamental to the issue. Why not just create perfect, as He did, and not allow the chance for sin? It was a part of His plan. We, myself included, try to rationalize God as being like us. We despise the rapists, child molesters, etc. Well, so does God, but for reasons we cant comprehend now, He has allowed it for a reason. One day we will know these mysteries. I hope this makes sense. Im not saying God is the author of sin, but as Creator with a glorious purpose,  it has to make us all think, and studynhard I hope.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> How or what possessed Eve to do what she did? She didn't use any of her on will or being? Adam & Eve were born without sin yet they still sinned, why?
> Is your only answer because God made them do it? He made Adam sin so that he could give us Jesus(himself), to save us from himself(wrath of God)?


Everyone, please take the time to read this little article. It describes what I believe on the subject much clearer than I can do myself.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/decree_fall.html


----------



## warmouth

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder why God predestined us to be divided by denominations as Christians?



Probably the best question to ponder.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> We could easily end all of these debates with one answer "God."
> Who are we to even try to understand God's ways? Just a response to one of these threads makes one guilty.



Artful, as correct as you are, this isnt possible with all the different views man has. Truth be told, man will adapt to what he is taught. Then there are the ones who hear something they disagree with, get mad, study to prove their belief is the right one, only to be radically changed. This was my case.


----------



## warmouth

HawgJawl said:


> We are sinful by nature because of original sin.  Sin is our default setting.
> 
> Eve was not born with original sin.  Eve was "good", therefore sin was not her default setting.
> 
> We can always answer the question "Why does man sin?" with "Because of original sin."  But we can't use that answer for Eve.



Eve sinned because God ordained it. She was without original sin, but God had a plan, Christ. It is the only reasonable answer, and the one I hold firmly too. Can we understand the mysteries of God? Nope. We can only trust that His will will be done as He has foreordained it all.


----------



## HawgJawl

warmouth said:


> Eve sinned because God ordained it. She was without original sin, but God had a plan, Christ. It is the only reasonable answer, and the one I hold firmly too. Can we understand the mysteries of God? Nope. We can only trust that His will will be done as He has foreordained it all.



If God ordained or caused Eve's actions then those actions were no longer a disobedient act and then no longer a sin against God.

That's like kicking a dog and then punishing the dog for hurting your foot when you kicked it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Eve sinned because God ordained it. She was without original sin, but God had a plan, Christ. It is the only reasonable answer, and the one I hold firmly too. Can we understand the mysteries of God? Nope. We can only trust that His will will be done as He has foreordained it all.



If this is true then I really don't understand the reason for God sending Jesus or the flood.


----------



## 1222DANO

warmouth said:


> Thats cool man. Im not trying to debate, just stating that so that it will cause deeper study hopefully because thatnis my intent. And I didnt necessarily acuse God of the said offences, but I dont think He was suprised, and I do feel He is the one who allowed it to happen. This can go a few ways. God allowed sin to happen, God had no idea sin would happen, or He was taken by suprise by the actions of man. I choose the first. Why allow the serpent to tempt? This is fundamental to the issue. Why not just create perfect, as He did, and not allow the chance for sin? It was a part of His plan. We, myself included, try to rationalize God as being like us. We despise the rapists, child molesters, etc. Well, so does God, but for reasons we cant comprehend now, He has allowed it for a reason. One day we will know these mysteries. I hope this makes sense. Im not saying God is the author of sin, but as Creator with a glorious purpose,  it has to make us all think, and studynhard I hope.





This can go a few ways. God allowed sin to happen, God had no idea sin would happen, or He was taken by suprise by the actions of man. I choose the first. Why allow the serpent to tempt? 


i see it as God was taking by suprise, We'll never know for sure.. He created us perfect, when he gave us free will, he didn't know how we would use it.. I would think God is alittle like us, He can't foretell every scenario or he's just not sure of the consequence. Be really hard to say for sure but i don't see him as great plainer but a great creator, who loves his creation no matter their imperfect ways.. he's saying he loves us so much and no matter our  short comings he'd send someone to Save us.. just an opinion and a discussion.. i'm not trying to put nothing into fact, just discussing things that need to be more openly viewed.. We're here to be filled with Joy and not sin, that why we sing out to him.. it takes all sinners to make the world go around and we shouldn't judge those beneath us because without someone holding us up, we would only fall to the one above us.. we shouldn't judge those viewed above us unless we shall fall into the same trap on our way up..


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Artful, as correct as you are, this isnt possible with all the different views man has. Truth be told, man will adapt to what he is taught. Then there are the ones who hear something they disagree with, get mad, study to prove their belief is the right one, only to be radically changed. This was my case.



I agree with man needing to put aside indoctrination and study the Bible for himself. You do agree then man has a somewhat limited freewill from this idea and the one expressed in your Monergism link:
"under a possibility of transgressing, being left to the liberty of their own will"

Also from the link:
we believe that God created human beings "with knowledge, righteousness, and true holiness, after His own image; having the law of God written in their hearts, and power to fulfil it"

Would you also agree that since we are made in the image of God we have the power to fulfill the Law? 
How does one have the power to do good or the possibility of transgressing? What part of God's image gives us this ability? 
We start out being made in God's image,  transgress, accept Jesus, and then start our life back to that image.


----------



## 1222DANO

Judgement is kind of like a college,, If i go get a degree then i think everyone that don't should get a degree, I'm taking a position over them>> Now if everyone runs out and gets one then, then i feel like i'm no better than they are.  i have fell into my own trap and lost my view, i put myself on a pedestal only to knock myself off .. then things get out of focus and i would feel like i done it to my self.. It all started with a premeditated thought that can be predetermined with failure..  it would be like losing your lives purpose to focus on others... when your mind is away on other peoples thoughts its losing focus on your mind..  Has anyone ever met what i would call Backwards people and i'm a little backwards sometimes i try not to be.. its always someone else's fault never their own.. they are not holding themselves accountable.. its a hard practice to not judge but its alot better for your own soul.. i believe this.. 
So to determine if someone is predestined that would sound impossible with free will. maybe i'm wrong..


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Everyone, please take the time to read this little article. It describes what I believe on the subject much clearer than I can do myself.
> 
> http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/decree_fall.html



Thanks for the link. I thought it was a good explanation on the subject. No matter what we believe it appears we must put aside human logic. 
What denominations are of the monergism belief?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Sometimes It's really hard to believe God has a hand in some to the doings of man. Meaning all of this originating, adopting, and later regecting by Churches and councils.

The synergist teaching originated from the Roman Catholic Church. It originated with Augustine (born 353 and died 430). The first promoter of synergism was in the Latin Catholic Church. Augustine eventually rejected synergism and embraced monergism. Interestingly, in the Council of Orange and Valence in 529 A.D. monergism was adopted but soon thereafter was abandoned. Unfortunately, baptismal regeneration transubstantiation, purgatory, priestly absolution, justification by works as well of faith, church infallibility, penances, required that monergism be rejected. Without delving into too much Roman Catholic History, monergism fails the Catholic theology and the Protestant reformation was eventually birthed so as to return to Sola Scriptura.

The Protestant Reformation was convicted of the utter sinfulness of man and his need of divine regeneration. In the sixteenth century, the reformists (Calvin & Luther) asserted the doctrine of sin and grace, declaring the equality and total depravity of all men in the eyes of God.

http://fruitoftheword.com/2009/02/synergism-vs-monergism-part-1/


----------



## M80

1222DANO said:


> This can go a few ways. God allowed sin to happen, God had no idea sin would happen, or He was taken by suprise by the actions of man. I choose the first. Why allow the serpent to tempt?
> 
> 
> i see it as God was taking by suprise, We'll never know for sure.. He created us perfect, when he gave us free will, he didn't know how we would use it.. I would think God is alittle like us, He can't foretell every scenario or he's just not sure of the consequence. Be really hard to say for sure but i don't see him as great plainer but a great creator, who loves his creation no matter their imperfect ways.. he's saying he loves us so much and no matter our  short comings he'd send someone to Save us.. just an opinion and a discussion.. i'm not trying to put nothing into fact, just discussing things that need to be more openly viewed.. We're here to be filled with Joy and not sin, that why we sing out to him.. it takes all sinners to make the world go around and we shouldn't judge those beneath us because without someone holding us up, we would only fall to the one above us.. we shouldn't judge those viewed above us unless we shall fall into the same trap on our way up..



Brother he knows everything you do before you do it. He knew excatly what Adam and Eve would do. Nothing has taken God by suprise.


----------



## warmouth

hummerpoo said:


> God



Who is the Christ, right?


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> If this is true then I really don't understand the reason for God sending Jesus or the flood.


Bypassing hawg jawl, lol.....love ya buddy, but you raise a common question I get alot of. Do you believe in 1 triune God? That is, 1 god manifested in 3 persons? Im not geting into the Trinty in this thread. Save that for another time guys.


----------



## warmouth

1222DANO said:


> This can go a few ways. God allowed sin to happen, God had no idea sin would happen, or He was taken by suprise by the actions of man. I choose the first. Why allow the serpent to tempt?
> 
> 
> i see it as God was taking by suprise, We'll never know for sure.. He created us perfect, when he gave us free will, he didn't know how we would use it.. I would think God is alittle like us, He can't foretell every scenario or he's just not sure of the consequence. Be really hard to say for sure but i don't see him as great plainer but a great creator, who loves his creation no matter their imperfect ways.. he's saying he loves us so much and no matter our  short comings he'd send someone to Save us.. just an opinion and a discussion.. i'm not trying to put nothing into fact, just discussing things that need to be more openly viewed.. We're here to be filled with Joy and not sin, that why we sing out to him.. it takes all sinners to make the world go around and we shouldn't judge those beneath us because without someone holding us up, we would only fall to the one above us.. we shouldn't judge those viewed above us unless we shall fall into the same trap on our way up..


Thank you for the reply. Do you realize that almost everything you just said that you think is contrary to Scripture? It is very common and I am in no way belittling you in the very least. Id say that most everyone who isnt grounded in this topic feels the same, and IF......a BIG if, predestination isnt Scriptural, then you would be right across the board. But Scripture is clear that God is completely sovereign over His creation, and it will work out exaclty as He has ordained it. As horrid as some sins can be to us, even the little ones we overlook is a million times more offensive to God than even the child molesting and the likes. God doesnt discriminate sin. Sin is sin, a lie or rape, its equally offensive to God in the whole scheme of things. Sure, some have harsher consequences physically,  but sin is sin. Ive prayed for God to show me how offensive sin is to Him formyears and to give me the conviction of seeing how much He is offended. We should all desire that to live as holy as we humanly can.


----------



## Israel

I am persuaded that seeing both how rich and famous we already are, might go a long way to help removing those things that tempt us to offense.
Where we are "known", when suddenly apparent, goes a long way to removing our striving to make a name for ourselves, elsewhere.
The riches we enjoy, when appreciated, help remove so much of scrambling for a piece of the pie that has so often driven me to desperately unwholesome places and deeds.

We truly are members of one another...thanks for your insights above.


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Bypassing hawg jawl, lol.....love ya buddy, but you raise a common question I get alot of. Do you believe in 1 triune God? That is, 1 god manifested in 3 persons? Im not geting into the Trinty in this thread. Save that for another time guys.



No unfortunately I don't believe in the Trinity and we have discussed that issue a few times including threads devoted to it.
I say unfortunately because like predestination, I wish I believed in that too. A belief in both would make my life a whole lot easier. A belief in the Trinity only because 95% of Christians believe that way so  I wouldn't have to explain myself so much. The Oneness believers never get asked to explain their beliefs. Predestination because I would have total Freedom from choices. I do have Liberty from Grace. 
I don't feel my Liberty gives me the freedom to say God is in total control. I do understand why people believe as you do and I do wish I believed that way too.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Like it or not for us Free will believers Calvinism is a growing belief in Christianity. The thread on Calvinism in the SBC is proof of it's growing popularity as a belief. 
I can  contribute some of this to teachers. I am pretty conservative but my daughter is way liberal. I could contribute this to her free thinking abilities but possibly her teachers too. Maybe society in general. In the Political forum there is a thread showing young people leaning more towards socialism. I'm just showing a comparison of teaching trends in the Church and society.
Example:
What has alarmed many Southern Baptists is that about 30 percent of recent SBC seminary graduates identify themselves as Dortian Calvinists. What accounts for this trend?

Many students entering seminaries, having been influenced by the preaching and writings of Calvinist authors John Piper and Mark Driscoll, more often than not find a place where their Calvinist theology is reinforced and refined by seminary faculty members. Indeed, a concern among a number of Southern Baptist leaders is that relative to the Southern Baptist population, Calvinists are over-represented on seminary faculties.

http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/commentaries/item/8622-the-new-calvinism-in-the-sbc#.UvQx__uGeKY

Louisville’s Southern Baptist Theological Seminary — from which Edwards graduated in 2008 — is playing a leading role in training and sending out pastors influenced by such views. And those views are increasingly spreading to the pews and folding chairs of the churches these pastors are leading.

http://theaquilareport.com/new-calvinism-finds-southern-baptist-fans-some-see-threat-to-evangelism/

Is  Calvinism out evangelizing free will?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Christian faith: Calvinism is back

In America's Christian faith, a surprising comeback of rock-ribbed Calvinism is challenging the Jesus-is-your-buddy gospel of modern evangelism.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0327/Christian-faith-Calvinism-is-back

Something I've noticed, presented by this headline is a belief in Free Will is always painted as to take away from God as this "Jesus is your buddy" headline.  You can find forumites painting us this way too. Yet when we say anything about their belief, we are spewing Anti-Calvinist garbage. It does work both ways meaning both sides are guilty of painting the other in a bad light.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Christian faith: Calvinism is back
> 
> In America's Christian faith, a surprising comeback of rock-ribbed Calvinism is challenging the Jesus-is-your-buddy gospel of modern evangelism.
> 
> http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Society/2010/0327/Christian-faith-Calvinism-is-back
> 
> Something I've noticed, presented by this headline is a belief in Free Will is always painted as to take away from God as this "Jesus is your buddy" headline.  You can find forumites painting us this way too. Yet when we say anything about their belief, we are spewing Anti-Calvinist garbage. It does work both ways meaning both sides are guilty of painting the other in a bad light.



1)Should I assume that you missed "rock-ribbed Calvinism"?
2)Should we be looking at the "cs monitor" as relating to attitudes on the forum?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> 1)Should I assume that you missed "rock-ribbed Calvinism"?
> 2)Should we be looking at the "cs monitor" as relating to attitudes on the forum?



I'm sorry I didn't know "rock-ribbed" was being used as derogatory in this article. I didn't even read it as being against Calvinism but just showing it's popularity. 
Maybe I read it with the wrong goggles on.
I believe we must look at society in general for current trends in Christianity. My mother wasn't allowed to play cards, wear pants, or say "I swear." She still doesn't say "I swear." Times they are a changin.
It's vary likely within the next few decades many more Churches will believe more towards predestination than free will if the current trend continues. 
More power to it, whether  God causes it, or just allows it. I like change.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I view of all that is said here, how do we explain Moses mediating for the Israelites on their journey. I should reread the text, but If I recall correctly, Moses changed God's mind several times. Did God already know that Moses would cause him to change his mind??? It seems like an oxymoran....Would it actually be a change of mind


----------



## M80

1gr8bldr said:


> I view of all that is said here, how do we explain Moses mediating for the Israelites on their journey. I should reread the text, but If I recall correctly, Moses changed God's mind several times. Did God already know that Moses would cause him to change his mind??? It seems like an oxymoran....Would it actually be a change of mind



Yes he did know that and that goes to show that we can reason with God as Abraham considering Sodom And Gomarh. He gives us the opportunity to pray over a matter and reason with God. Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> No unfortunately I don't believe in the Trinity and we have discussed that issue a few times including threads devoted to it.
> I say unfortunately because like predestination, I wish I believed in that too. A belief in both would make my life a whole lot easier. A belief in the Trinity only because 95% of Christians believe that way so  I wouldn't have to explain myself so much. The Oneness believers never get asked to explain their beliefs. Predestination because I would have total Freedom from choices. I do have Liberty from Grace.
> I don't feel my Liberty gives me the freedom to say God is in total control. I do understand why people believe as you do and I do wish I believed that way too.


This bothers me on several levels. Why do you say you unfortunately dont believe in the trinity Or predestination? And why do you wish you believed that way? This discussion might just have had a turn for the better!


----------



## warmouth

Banjo Picker said:


> You know if you would read (Gen.3:1-7) you would know V.6 for sure .Do u know that saying Eve sinned because God ordained it, by doing so your saying God made sin. you need to think about that. God did not make sin. and by the way it dont matter if you call me names they call my Lord names to no dought but when the truth is told it always stirs up the devil. "AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE."



First off, why would I call you names? Thats not me man. I just enjoy dialog.  God did ordain Eve to sin. Think about this... What existed before God?


----------



## warmouth

1gr8bldr said:


> I view of all that is said here, how do we explain Moses mediating for the Israelites on their journey. I should reread the text, but If I recall correctly, Moses changed God's mind several times. Did God already know that Moses would cause him to change his mind??? It seems like an oxymoran....Would it actually be a change of mind



Yes. Re read it and post it please sir.


----------



## warmouth

mwilliams80 said:


> Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers.


Wait.....What?


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> You know if you would read (Gen.3:1-7) you would know V.6 for sure .Do u know that saying Eve sinned because God ordained it, by doing so your saying God made sin. you need to think about that. God did not make sin. and by the way it dont matter if you call me names they call my Lord names to no dought but when the truth is told it always stirs up the devil. "AND THE TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE."


Who established law? Does sin exist in the absence of law?


----------



## gemcgrew

1gr8bldr said:


> I view of all that is said here, how do we explain Moses mediating for the Israelites on their journey. I should reread the text, but If I recall correctly, Moses changed God's mind several times. Did God already know that Moses would cause him to change his mind??? It seems like an oxymoran....Would it actually be a change of mind


For God to change his mind, he would either be improving or worsening. "I am the Lord, I change not". Now, as far as predestination goes, he determined the appearance of a change of mind.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe I read it with the wrong goggles on.



I take it that you have another pair; good to hear. I hadn't seen them lately.  I'm still keeping watch for that post-link affirming monergism.

I do think that we must consider the source when giving weight to anything.  CS monitor's likely motive is to enhance division in the enemy camp.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I take it that you have another pair; good to hear. I hadn't seen them lately.  I'm still keeping watch for that post-link affirming monergism.
> 
> I do think that we must consider the source when giving weight to anything.  CS monitor's likely motive is to enhance division in the enemy camp.



I'll put them on. Like Gem said, God established sin when he gave us the Law. If he didn't want us to sin, he wouldn't have given us the law. 
I can see this.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> For God to change his mind, he would either be improving or worsening. "I am the Lord, I change not". Now, as far as predestination goes, he determined the appearance of a change of mind.



Now this one I can't see no matter what goggles I have on.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Quote:
Originally Posted by mwilliams80  
Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers. 




warmouth said:


> Wait.....What?



I'm with you on this one, it's going to need a little more explaining.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll put them on. Like Gem said, God established sin when he gave us the Law. If he didn't want us to sin, he wouldn't have given us the law.
> I can see this.



Good job.  



Artfuldodger said:


> Now this one I can't see no matter what goggles I have on.



Which part?
First part ... His change would mean that He got better or worse, it would not be neutral; how could He do either?

Second part ... A teaching moment.

Gem, kick me over if I'm in the way.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Good job.
> 
> Which part?
> First part ... His change would mean that He got better or worse, it would not be neutral; how could He do either?
> 
> Second part ... A teaching moment.
> 
> Gem, kick me over if I'm in the way.



I can see the first part, it's the second part: "he determined the appearance of a change of mind" that I don't understand.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mwilliams80
> Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on this one, it's going to need a little more explaining.



God, though the Spirit, influenced the desire to pray.

Too much talk, not enough work ... gotta go.


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by mwilliams80
> Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm with you on this one, it's going to need a little more explaining.



At work. Will do my best but I've already stated he watches our life's and saw what we would do. Did not Abraham reason with God. Our prayer life can impress on the will of God about the decision God makes on a situation. Oh yeah and he knew all this before the foundations of the world


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> Who established law? Does sin exist in the absence of law?



If God knows everything you will do throughout your entire life before He even makes the Law, then what purpose does the Law serve?  Whether you know about the Law or not, your future is set from God's perspective.  Making a Law after the event is set can serve no purpose.

Invite some neighborhood kids over to play with a ball in your front yard.  Let them run around freely kicking and throwing the ball and chasing each other.  Video tape them for about an hour.  Sit down and watch the tape and invent a game based upon their actions.  Make up rules for the game you invented and then punish the kids for their violations of the rules that you invented after the fact.


----------



## M80

HawgJawl said:


> If God knows everything you will do throughout your entire life before He even makes the Law, then what purpose does the Law serve?  Whether you know about the Law or not, your future is set from God's perspective.  Making a Law after the event is set can serve no purpose.
> 
> Invite some neighborhood kids over to play with a ball in your front yard.  Let them run around freely kicking and throwing the ball and chasing each other.  Video tape them for about an hour.  Sit down and watch the tape and invent a game based upon their actions.  Make up rules for the game you invented and then punish the kids for their violations of the rules that you invented after the fact.



I'm glad you wrote this. Just like the kids playing they made all the action and the good kicks. When you watch the video you can tell someone you invited over to watch the video" watch this kick this little boy does". Cause you knew what was going to happen, but the little kids made the decisions who they was going to kick the ball to, and to make it all confusing to some again, but he knew who would kick the ball good already.


----------



## HawgJawl

mwilliams80 said:


> I'm glad you wrote this. Just like the kids playing they made all the action and the good kicks. When you watch the video you can tell someone you invited over to watch the video" watch this kick this little boy does". Cause you knew what was going to happen, but the little kids made the decisions who they was going to kick the ball to, and to make it all confusing to some again, but he knew who would kick the ball good already.



The point is that after they played, while watching the video, you invented a rule against kicking the ball in a certain direction and you decided to punish all the kids who had already done this before you even made the rule.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> If God knows everything you will do throughout your entire life before He even makes the Law, then what purpose does the Law serve?  Whether you know about the Law or not, your future is set from God's perspective.  Making a Law after the event is set can serve no purpose.



His foreknowledge includes the Law.  Taking out part of the revealed plan, then saying it doesn’t work, isn’t exegesis, it’s eisegesis.  

But then, conditional omniscience is at the heart of open theism, isn’t it?


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> His foreknowledge includes the Law.  Taking out part of the revealed plan, then saying it doesn’t work, isn’t exegesis, it’s eisegesis.
> 
> But then, conditional omniscience is at the heart of open theism, isn’t it?



What was the Law prior to Eve sinning?


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> What was the Law prior to Eve sinning?



Big picture, Hawg.  Work on the big picture.


----------



## HawgJawl

If God already knew every decision I would make throughout my entire life from the very beginning, then my life was set just like the video of the kids playing.  There was never any possibility of me making any other choices than what God had already foreseen.

After that, God made Laws.  

That is like making rules for a game after it has been played.


----------



## hummerpoo

I believe I identified the problem above.  I don't see the benefit of chasing the resulting confusion.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> What was the Law prior to Eve sinning?


"thou shalt not eat of it"


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> "thou shalt not eat of it"



Has the Law changed any since then?


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> Has the Law changed any since then?




I'll pass on that one.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> "thou shalt not eat of it"



If we had law before someone sinned then we had the capacity to sin. With laws comes sin. We just acknowledged this. What existed before the fall? Why did the fall change anything?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> What was the Law prior to Eve sinning?



Did I ever get an answer on Eve's ability to sin?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mwilliams80 said:


> Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers.



Maybe you missed a coma, but my question concerning this was "how could God ever answer a prayer that was never prayed?"


----------



## M80

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe you missed a coma, but my question concerning this was "how could God ever answer a prayer that was never prayed?"



Coma was supposed to be after happen. That's what I'm getting at. If we don't have free will, why even pray. I am free will but I understand predestination the way The Lord has revealed it to me.


----------



## ambush80

mwilliams80 said:


> Coma was supposed to be after happen. That's what I'm getting at. If we don't have free will, why even pray. I am free will but I understand predestination the way The Lord has revealed it to me.



You are very confused.


----------



## mtnwoman

kmh1031 said:


> Well, according to the scriptures pharaoh was already hard hearted, and thought he was god...as all the pharaohs did...
> 
> Appearing before Pharaoh, Moses and Aaron delivered their message in the name of God. But Pharaoh arrogantly said: “Who is this God so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away?
> I do not know him at all and, what is more, I am not going to send Israel away.” (Exodus 5:1, 2)
> 
> Pharaoh proved to be both hardhearted and deceitful, yet God urged Moses to deliver messages to him again and again. (Exodus 7:14-16, 20-23; 8:1, 2, 20)
> 
> So, like some people today, they are already hard hearted, and not open to any agreement....



I agree.


----------



## M80

ambush80 said:


> You are very confused.



Please enlighten me then


----------



## mtnwoman

hummerpoo said:


> It must feel good to inform God that you have decided to approve His plan.



I think it does feel good to God for us to approve of His plan for our salvation....He chooses for no one to perish, not just a few select, but for no one to perish. When we accept His plan of salvation, I believe God is glorified and how could being glorified be a bad thing to God? Isn't that what He wants? He wants all the praise and all the glory for our acceptance of His plan for the sacrifice of Christ for our redemption and acceptance of that sacrifice, in my opinion.  If in fact He chooses/forces us to accept His plan, He's giving Himself glory and we are not. He just wants to glorify Himself by choosing  our acceptance without our will to do so?

Throughout the Bible God says, if you will tithe, if you will believe....if if if....so is it if you will believe, or is it you will believe?  That's  what destroyed eden....free will on our part.

Just my belief.


----------



## M80

Alright ambush, me reading what I've been saying sounds confusing I agree. Let me say it like this. God is all knowing, he knows everyone that is going to get saved and everything we do before we do it, but we are the ones making the decisions. He just already knows. Do that mean that he chooses who will be saved, I think not. Does election believers believe that only the people God draws to his son are saved? I believe that, but I will never not believe whosever will. For all, or that god sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.


----------



## mtnwoman

Fenderbuilt27 said:


> [/COLOR]
> 
> So.......when one of the "Elect" cannot commit sin?
> 
> Brother, you said something earlier about having distain for someone who has a reform theology. This is not the case. Being a Traditional Baptist I am held to the belief that God wants everyone to be saved.



Amen...that's what He says....He chooses for no one to perish.


----------



## M80

mtnwoman said:


> I think it does feel good to God for us to approve of His plan for our salvation....He chooses for no one to perish, not just a few select, but for no one to perish. When we accept His plan of salvation, I believe God is glorified and how could being glorified be a bad thing to God? Isn't that what He wants? He wants all the praise and all the glory for our acceptance of His plan for the sacrifice of Christ for our redemption and acceptance of that sacrifice, in my opinion.  If in fact He chooses/forces us to accept His plan, He's giving Himself glory and we are not. He just wants to glorify Himself by choosing  our acceptance without our will to do so?
> 
> Throughout the Bible God says, if you will tithe, if you will believe....if if if....so is it if you will believe, or is it you will believe?  That's is what destroyed eden....free will on our part.
> 
> Just my belief.



I just love reading your posts. Amen and Amen


----------



## warmouth

Hold up... on the pharoah statement that was just agreed upon. I missed it originally, and I am sorry for this. It was stated by someone that Pharoahs heart was already hardened. While I will agree that ALL unbelievers hearts are hardened where God is concerned, God hardened Pharoahs heart, several times. Pharoah also hardened his heart, but on several occasions Scripture says God did it. So did God hardened his heart where the bible tells us He did, or did He not?


----------



## M80

warmouth said:


> Hold up... on the pharoah statement that was just agreed upon. I missed it originally, and I am sorry for this. It was stated by someone that Pharoahs heart was already hardened. While I will agree that ALL unbelievers hearts are hardened where God is concerned, God hardened Pharoahs heart, several times. Pharoah also hardened his heart, but on several occasions Scripture says God did it. So did God hardened his heart where the bible tells us He did, or did He not?



He did harden Pharaohs heart because he knew his heart was already hardened and would never believe in God so God made it harder and harder


----------



## warmouth

mwilliams80 said:


> Alright ambush, me reading what I've been saying sounds confusing I agree. Let me say it like this. God is all knowing, he knows everyone that is going to get saved and everything we do before we do it, but we are the ones making the decisions. He just already knows. Do that mean that he chooses who will be saved, I think not. Does election believers believe that only the people God draws to his son are saved? I believe that, but I will never not believe whosever will. For all, or that god sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.



If God knows everyone who will be saved and everyone who will go to he11, even before creation, as you have put it, then why would God create people knowing they were going to suffer in he11. Is he showing favoritism? Does He love all men equally? Predestination is NOT God looking down the portal of time to see who will and will not accept Him. That isnt predestination at all. Thats God cheating because He isnt all knowing because He has to first see our choices, THEN that makes Him all knowing. It is much more reasonable to just accept that God choose, according to His divine and just plan, to create some for noble purposes and some not. Who are we to ask why? There is reason God chose some for this, some for that because it is all a part of a plan that we cant comprehend. Youre making Gods predestination based on a false assumption of foreknowledge in that He is only all knowing based upon decisions that He has seen us make based upon our free will from before creation. That is not a sovereign, nor all knowing God.


----------



## warmouth

mwilliams80 said:


> He did harden Pharaohs heart because he knew his heart was already hardened and would never believe in God so God made it harder and harder



Scriptural evidence please sir.


----------



## warmouth

mtnwoman said:


> *I think *it does feel good to God for us to approve of His plan for our salvation....He chooses for no one to perish, not just a few select, but for no one to perish. When we accept His plan of salvation, *I believe* God is glorified and how could being glorified be a bad thing to God? Isn't that what He wants? He wants all the praise and all the glory for our acceptance of His plan for the sacrifice of Christ for our redemption and acceptance of that sacrifice,* in my opinion. * If in fact He chooses/forces us to accept His plan, He's giving Himself glory and we are not. He just wants to glorify Himself by choosing  our acceptance without our will to do so?
> 
> Throughout the Bible God says, if you will tithe, if you will believe....if if if....so is it if you will believe, or is it you will believe?  That's  what destroyed eden....free will on our part.
> 
> *Just my belief.*


See bold. 

If Scriptural evidence isnt your authoritive end, then I just cant believe based on "your opinion" or "just your belief". Please keep in mind I am not being disrespectful, but an arguement based upon one's own opinion just isnt a trustworthy source of knowledged when concerning the bible, unless you are never, and have never been proven wrong. See what I'm saying? I'm not bashing you be any means, but as christians, we all believe the bible to be absolute, and if it isnt used to back a belief,  then that belief should be void.
Also, would you give glory to God if He did choose some for glory and some for reprobate?


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Scriptural evidence please sir.



I would like to see that spiritual evidence too because I must agree with warmouth on this one.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If God knows everyone who will be saved and everyone who will go to Heaven, even before creation, as you have put it, then why would God create people knowing they were going to rest in comfort in Heaven?


----------



## warmouth

Traditional Baptists are reformed. Just a little reminder...


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> If God knows everyone who will be saved and everyone who will go to Heaven, even before creation, as you have put it, then why would God create people knowing they were going to rest in comfort in Heaven?



Question for me Artful, or someone else?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> I think it does feel good to God for us to approve of His plan for our salvation....He chooses for no one to perish, not just a few select, but for no one to perish. When we accept His plan of salvation, I believe God is glorified and how could being glorified be a bad thing to God? Isn't that what He wants? He wants all the praise and all the glory for our acceptance of His plan for the sacrifice of Christ for our redemption and acceptance of that sacrifice, in my opinion.  If in fact He chooses/forces us to accept His plan, He's giving Himself glory and we are not. He just wants to glorify Himself by choosing  our acceptance without our will to do so?
> 
> Throughout the Bible God says, if you will tithe, if you will believe....if if if....so is it if you will believe, or is it you will believe?  That's  what destroyed eden....free will on our part.
> 
> Just my belief.



I see free will as the only way to glorify God. How could I even begin to "glorify" God if it wasn't in my will to do so.


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> Question for me Artful, or someone else?



For anyone wanting to answer. People pre-destined for Heaven shouldn't need salvation. They were Pre-forgiven.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> For anyone wanting to answer. People pre-destined for Heaven shouldn't need salvation. They were Pre-forgiven.



I just had a huge response Art and my computer crashed. Crap! Please just read over John 6 at the context of the passage. I have to try to remember what I wrote. I hate technology. I just spent 20 minutes typing for nothing.


----------



## Artfuldodger

warmouth said:


> I just had a huge response Art and my computer crashed. Crap! Please just read over John 6 at the context of the passage. I have to try to remember what I wrote. I hate technology. I just spent 20 minutes typing for nothing.



I've had that happen and you can never recall what you just typed. I wish we had a auto save function within the text format we are typing. 
I'm off to bed but have enjoyed every ones company.


----------



## warmouth

Artfuldodger said:


> I've had that happen and you can never recall what you just typed. I wish we had a auto save function within the text format we are typing.
> I'm off to bed but have enjoyed every ones company.



Gosh it makes me furious! Im out as well. Starting to actually feel sleepy for the first time in a few day. Goodnight everyone, and hopefully the discussion can continue, if Art slows down on the questions... lol.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

mtnwoman said:


> Amen...that's what He says....He chooses for no one to perish.


Good to see you around mtnwoman


----------



## 1gr8bldr

warmouth said:


> Yes. Re read it and post it please sir.





mwilliams80 said:


> Yes he did know that and that goes to show that we can reason with God as Abraham considering Sodom And Gomarh. He gives us the opportunity to pray over a matter and reason with God. Even though he knows what will happen if we never prayed he wouldn't answer our prayers.





1gr8bldr said:


> I view of all that is said here, how do we explain Moses mediating for the Israelites on their journey. I should reread the text, but If I recall correctly, Moses changed God's mind several times. Did God already know that Moses would cause him to change his mind??? It seems like an oxymoran....Would it actually be a change of mind


You guys are saying that God did not change his mind. That he knew all along what he would do. I am not comfortable with that for it makes God look deceptive in the fact that he tells Moses what he is about to do [punishment to disgruntal Israelites] Then Moses begs and intercedes, God listens and does not do that which he said he was about to do. Your version of this puts God deceving Moses, that he was never going to do that which he said he was going to do.


----------



## Israel

1gr8bldr said:


> You guys are saying that God did not change his mind. That he knew all along what he would do. I am not comfortable with that for it makes God look deceptive in the fact that he tells Moses what he is about to do [punishment to disgruntal Israelites] Then Moses begs and intercedes, God listens and does not do that which he said he was about to do. Your version of this puts God deceving Moses, that he was never going to do that which he said he was going to do.



Mar_10:27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God:_ for with God all things are possible._

Who enters the place of all possibility...and from there sees mercy, instead of _every other_ thing that _seems_ to so correctly/rightly/indisputably argue against it?

A friend.


----------



## ambush80

mwilliams80 said:


> Alright ambush, me reading what I've been saying sounds confusing I agree. Let me say it like this. God is all knowing, he knows everyone that is going to get saved and everything we do before we do it, but we are the ones making the decisions. He just already knows. Do that mean that he chooses who will be saved, I think not. Does election believers believe that only the people God draws to his son are saved? I believe that, but I will never not believe whosever will. For all, or that god sent not his son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.



They seem like "decisions" to us but they really are not.  You must be able to see that.  If God knows that I am bound for He11, then when exactly do I get to decide?



warmouth said:


> If God knows everyone who will be saved and everyone who will go to he11, even before creation, as you have put it, then why would God create people knowing they were going to suffer in he11. Is he showing favoritism? Does He love all men equally? Predestination is NOT God looking down the portal of time to see who will and will not accept Him. That isnt predestination at all. Thats God cheating because He isnt all knowing because He has to first see our choices, THEN that makes Him all knowing. It is much more reasonable to just accept that God choose, according to His divine and just plan, to create some for noble purposes and some not. Who are we to ask why? There is reason God chose some for this, some for that because it is all a part of a plan that we cant comprehend. Youre making Gods predestination based on a false assumption of foreknowledge in that He is only all knowing based upon decisions that He has seen us make based upon our free will from before creation. That is not a sovereign, nor all knowing God.



A plan where all works in concordance with God's will would give him glory, including some souls that were created to suffer in He11.



Israel said:


> Mar_10:27  And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God:_ for with God all things are possible._
> 
> Who enters the place of all possibility...and from there sees mercy, instead of _every other_ thing that _seems_ to so correctly/rightly/indisputably argue against it?
> 
> A friend.



Is this some cryptic and lyrical way of saying "quit asking questions and simply trust and obey"?   I see where you get your influence.


----------



## Israel

If you see my influence you can now be a help.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> For anyone wanting to answer. People pre-destined for Heaven shouldn't need salvation. They were Pre-forgiven.


 
That's a keen way of looking at that topic... thanks.
I still maintain we get to call out for help... 
"Lord, save me!" 
in our state of fallen-ness, 
and God then does His work of forgiveness and grace.  

The other way, as you pointed out,
would be salvation before,
well,
salvation!

No No:

Those who call...  shall be saved  *Romans 10:13*


----------



## barryl

A.D., Striper, what Calvinist are saying is, you have to be born again to be born again?


----------



## StriperAddict

barryl said:


> A.D., Striper, what Calvinist are saying is, you have to be born again to be born again?


 
Is that a question? 

In that case I'd say yes, I hear they believe salvation comes inside a heart/spirit and only then does a person call out for it.
That's putting the cart before the horse IMO.
You only ask for what is not yours..
Ask, and it shall be given, etc.
The Holy Spirit uses conviction, the word, preaching,
those oddly "weak" things - 
to be what is real strength indeed...
and we in our weakness call for the gift, the mercy, the Lord Himself... to fill what is not full.


----------



## ambush80

Israel said:


> If you see my influence you can now be a help.




I'm afraid not.  I've never been good at deciphering enigmatic code.


----------



## barryl

StriperAddict said:


> Is that a question?
> 
> In that case I'd say yes, I hear they believe salvation comes inside a heart/spirit and only then does a person call out for it.
> That's putting the cart before the horse IMO.
> You only ask for what is not yours..
> Ask, and it shall be given, etc.
> The Holy Spirit uses conviction, the word, preaching,
> those oddly "weak" things -
> to be what is real strength indeed...
> and we in our weakness call for the gift, the mercy, the Lord Himself... to fill what is not full.


I agree!!


----------



## gemcgrew

barryl said:


> A.D., Striper, what Calvinist are saying is, you have to be born again to be born again?


Can one be born again without actually having been born again? 

As a former Atheist, I can say without reservation that I did not desire it, want it, need it or pursue it. I was fine right where I was. I did... however... acknowledge it. God did this, not I.


----------



## Israel

ambush80 said:


> I'm afraid not.  I've never been good at deciphering enigmatic code.



Ahh...now you've said a mouthful!


----------



## HawgJawl

mwilliams80 said:


> He did harden Pharaohs heart because he knew his heart was already hardened and would never believe in God so God made it harder and harder



What exactly did God do when He hardened Pharaoh's heart?  Specifically, did He CHANGE anything by hardening Pharaoh's heart?  

If it didn't change anything then why did He do it and why was it even mentioned?


----------



## Jeffriesw

gemcgrew said:


> Can one be born again without actually having been born again?
> 
> As a former Atheist, I can say without reservation that I did not desire it, want it, need it or pursue it. I was fine right where I was. I did... however... acknowledge it. God did this, not I.


----------



## warmouth

HawgJawl said:


> What exactly did God do when He hardened Pharaoh's heart?  Specifically, did He CHANGE anything by hardening Pharaoh's heart?
> 
> If it didn't change anything then why did He do it and why was it even mentioned?



I say yes. Through the context, several times Pharoah showed remorse and hesitance, but God hardened it and Pharoah got mad agian  amd again, and then the slaves were free. God did that to presearveHis people.


----------



## HawgJawl

warmouth said:


> I say yes. Through the context, several times Pharoah showed remorse and hesitance, but God hardened it and Pharoah got mad agian  amd again, and then the slaves were free. God did that to presearveHis people.



The reason I point this out is because it is in direct conflict with predestination.  If God knows the future, there is ONE future and no other possible futures.  For God to change something there must be an alternate future for God to change it from.

Pharaoh complying with Moses' request is an alternate future.  If that was never a possibility, then God changed nothing.  There would be absolutely no need for God to harden Pharaoh's heart.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I point this out is because it is in direct conflict with predestination.  If God knows the future, there is ONE future and no other possible futures.  For God to change something there must be an alternate future for God to change it from.
> 
> Pharaoh complying with Moses' request is an alternate future.  If that was never a possibility, then God changed nothing.  There would be absolutely no need for God to harden Pharaoh's heart.



And if Pharoah already had a hardened heart, there would be no reason for God to harden Pharoah's heart.


----------



## HawgJawl

Banjo Picker said:


> GOD'S PURPOSE IN GIVING THE LAW TO MOSES
> 1. God's purpose was that the law of moses should govern Israel until the Messiah should come. It "prophesied until John" (Matt. 11:11-13; Luke 16:16-17).



I challenge you to show me anywhere in scripture that Moses says the Law is temporary.


----------



## Israel

Not taking yes for an answer is a terrible thing.
Maybe is perhaps the most horrible place to dwell.
We just don't know how thunderously this was responded to till we do:
Father, forgive them, they don't know what they are doing.
To know why it is answered as it is...we must first agree with the petitioner who alone is worthy of all "yes".


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> I challenge you to show me anywhere in scripture that Moses says the Law is temporary.


Hey friend, do you believe the law still applies? Just wondering about what to serve if we ever get together for a cookout. Might have to forget pork


----------



## HawgJawl

Banjo Picker said:


> You want find it because its Gods Law not Moses to start it or end it, it was give to Moses to live by and  Israel at that time till CHRIST WOULD COME. You show me scripture where it says that the law of Moses is or was forever.



It's on my flash drive at the office but I have over 30 scriptures where Moses says that God says that the Laws are permanent, forever, for all future generations, etc.  It's fairly easy to find.

If that is not true, if it is just something that Moses said and not what God said then we have to seriously consider if anything Moses said is really from God.


----------



## HawgJawl

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey friend, do you believe the law still applies? Just wondering about what to serve if we ever get together for a cookout. Might have to forget pork



I'm not saying that the Law ever applied, just that it was said to be permanent, forever, for all future generations, etc.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not saying that the Law ever applied, just that it was said to be permanent, forever, for all future generations, etc.


Barbecue it is then.


----------



## HawgJawl

1gr8bldr said:


> Barbecue it is then.



Man, I can't imagine living the rest of my life without pork or shrimp.  And I'd be honored to share a meal with you.  From all the posts I've read, I think you and I have a lot in common in our beliefs.

I think the main difference is that the information I am currently evaluating is leading me away from Christianity.


----------



## Ronnie T

HawgJawl said:


> Man, I can't imagine living the rest of my life without pork or shrimp.  And I'd be honored to share a meal with you.  From all the posts I've read, I think you and I have a lot in common in our beliefs.
> 
> I think the main difference is that the information I am currently evaluating is leading me away from Christianity.



And who wrote that information?
.


----------



## HawgJawl

Ronnie T said:


> And who wrote that information?
> .



People on this forum.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> The reason I point this out is because it is in direct conflict with predestination.  If God knows the future, there is ONE future and no other possible futures.  For God to change something there must be an alternate future for God to change it from.
> 
> Pharaoh complying with Moses' request is an alternate future.  If that was never a possibility, then God changed nothing.  There would be absolutely no need for God to harden Pharaoh's heart.



The alternate future is in the mind (plans) of man (Pharaoh), and the “no need for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart” scenario assumes the absence of an omnipotent, omniscient God. All conflict goes away with the reality of Almighty God.

God does not choose among possible futures, He has established the future (Ex. 6:6,7) for His purpose (Is. 46:10), and to His glory (Ex. 14:18). 

What is the open theist’s view of the exodus story?


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> The alternate future is in the mind (plans) of man (Pharaoh), and the “no need for God to harden Pharaoh’s heart” scenario assumes the absence of an omnipotent, omniscient God. All conflict goes away with the reality of Almighty God.
> 
> God does not choose among possible futures, He has established the future (Ex. 6:6,7) for His purpose (Is. 46:10), and to His glory (Ex. 14:18).
> 
> What is the open theist’s view of the exodus story?



If there is only one future, then the concept of changing the future could not exist.  The concept that anything we choose to do could ever change our future could not exist.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> If there is only one future, then the concept of changing the future could not exist.  The concept that anything we choose to do could ever change our future could not exist.



What we can not change is God.  I'm satisfied with that.  Actually, I rejoice in that.


----------



## hummerpoo

Hawg, maybe you should look at all that you have considered, and the alternative of the immutable God who causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him; to those who are called according to {His} purpose.  The purpose of those He has called is Him. Their only “good” is Him.  Could all those questions leave only one true answer?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> People on this forum.



Start a thread:  

"Stuff I Have Read on This Forum That Is Leading Me Away from Christianity".


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Hawg, maybe you should look at all that you have considered, and the alternative of the immutable God who causes all things to work together for good to those who love Him; to those who are the called according to {His} purpose.  The purpose of those He has called is Him. Their only “good” is Him.  Could all those questions leave only one true answer?



"The called" has always struck me as a distinctive and particular "called".


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> It's on my flash drive at the office but I have over 30 scriptures where Moses says that God says that the Laws are permanent, forever, for all future generations, etc.  It's fairly easy to find.
> 
> If that is not true, if it is just something that Moses said and not what God said then we have to seriously consider if anything Moses said is really from God.


Here is the closest I found Rom 7:4-7 and Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that their may......". I did not check the original greek


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> If there is only one future, then the concept of changing the future could not exist.  The concept that anything we choose to do could ever change our future could not exist.



As pointed out before, there is no future with God. Everything is with him at the same "time". What we experience in what we refer to as time, is the evidence of what is decreed from eternity.

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"


----------



## Ronnie T

HawgJawl said:


> People on this forum.



People on this forum???

Why I wouldn't base anything I believe on what has been said on this forum.  This forum, and its contents, are contradictory and often based on individual church beliefs rather than God's word.

Commenter on this forum aren't smart enough for you to base new or future beliefs upon.

For all I know, this forum is playtime for the wretched.

Stick to prayerfully studying God's word!


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> As pointed out before, there is no future with God. Everything is with him at the same "time". What we experience in what we refer to as time, is the evidence of what is decreed from eternity.
> 
> "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:"



I never meant to indicate that God could not do anything He wants to do.

My question was whether God changed anything when He hardened Pharaoh's heart.


----------



## HawgJawl

1gr8bldr said:


> Here is the closest I found Rom 7:4-7 and Romans 10:4 "Christ is the end of the law so that their may......". I did not check the original greek



You'll find it all through scripture written by Paul.

Moses, who spoke face to face with God and relayed God's directions and rules to His people, said over and over that the Law was permanent.

If anyone wishes to take the position that certain things Moses relayed "from God" weren't really from God, then let's start picking out which parts are true and which parts aren't.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> What we can not change is God.  I'm satisfied with that.  Actually, I rejoice in that.



Moses wrote that he interceded and changed God's mind.  Do you believe what Moses wrote was true?


----------



## hobbs27

The law was a covenant{the law} of marriage between God and Abraham, and his seed. Gods commitment was forever. The seed of Abraham became adulturous in the marriage. God divorced them, and took on a new bride with a new covenant{grace} of marriage. There is only one covenant. This is my belief.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> The law was a covenant{the law} of marriage between God and Abraham, and his seed. Gods commitment was forever. The seed of Abraham became adulturous in the marriage. God divorced them, and took on a new bride with a new covenant{grace} of marriage. There is only one covenant. This is my belief.



When the Laws relayed by Moses included words like "This is a permanent law for all future generations wherever you live", how do we interpret that as a temporary law?


----------



## Denton

Thanks for the vote of confidence Ronnie. 




Ronnie T said:


> People on this forum???
> 
> Why I wouldn't base anything I believe on what has been said on this forum.  This forum, and its contents, are contradictory and often based on individual church beliefs rather than God's word.



That's the point isn't it?  If after 2000 years we can't agree on the basic tenants of Christianity or more importantly cannot fit the Christian teachings into what we know or are learning about the world we inhabit then something has to change.  Of course our discussion here is contradictory, its a discussion about a book with contradictions in it (or not depending on your beliefs but that's a contradiction too).  And of course its based on individual church beliefs because again, we have 2000 years of discussion behind us.  

So you're saying that "individual church beliefs" are not god's word?  Which churches get it right in your opinion? Should we all follow you as the one true voice of god? 

If Hawg had said that the people on this forum had convinced him of the truthfulness of the Christian faith you'd have welcomed him with open arms.  That he might be swaying the other direction causes you to demean this forum is unjust and unforgiving.  

This statement by you just represents your unwillingness to actually listen to what anyone with a different opinion from you has to say.  



Ronnie T said:


> Commenter on this forum aren't smart enough for you to base new or future beliefs upon.



That's nice of you to say.  We're all struggling together to become smarter, hence why we're here.  Conflict and challenges to our beliefs keep us from wallowing in complacent ignorance of greater understanding.  If our past beliefs do not survive scrutiny from our own logic then they were weak beliefs and of no use to us.  We learn and improve ourselves.  



Ronnie T said:


> For all I know, this forum is playtime for the wretched.


 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo


Ronnie T said:


> Stick to prayerfully studying God's word!



I thought that was what we are doing?


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> Moses wrote that he interceded and changed God's mind.  Do you believe what Moses wrote was true?



Do you believe that God knew that Moses would intercede and He would respond when Moses was floating around in the reeds in his basket?


----------



## Ronnie T

HawgJawl said:


> Man, I can't imagine living the rest of my life without pork or shrimp.  And I'd be honored to share a meal with you.  From all the posts I've read, I think you and I have a lot in common in our beliefs.
> 
> I think the main difference is that the information I am currently evaluating is leading me away from Christianity.





Ronnie T said:


> And who wrote that information?
> .





HawgJawl said:


> People on this forum.





Ronnie T said:


> People on this forum???
> 
> Why I wouldn't base anything I believe on what has been said on this forum.  This forum, and its contents, are contradictory and often based on individual church beliefs rather than God's word.
> 
> Commenter on this forum aren't smart enough for you to base new or future beliefs upon.
> 
> For all I know, this forum is playtime for the wretched.
> 
> Stick to prayerfully studying God's word!





Denton said:


> Thanks for the vote of confidence Ronnie.
> 
> That's the point isn't it?  If after 2000 years we can't agree on the basic tenants of Christianity or more importantly cannot fit the Christian teachings into what we know or are learning about the world we inhabit then something has to change.  Of course our discussion here is contradictory, its a discussion about a book with contradictions in it (or not depending on your beliefs but that's a contradiction too).  And of course its based on individual church beliefs because again, we have 2000 years of discussion behind us.
> 
> So you're saying that "individual church beliefs" are not god's word?  Which churches get it right in your opinion? Should we all follow you as the one true voice of god?
> 
> If Hawg had said that the people on this forum had convinced him of the truthfulness of the Christian faith you'd have welcomed him with open arms.  That he might be swaying the other direction causes you to demean this forum is unjust and unforgiving.
> 
> This statement by you just represents your unwillingness to actually listen to what anyone with a different opinion from you has to say.
> 
> That's nice of you to say.  We're all struggling together to become smarter, hence why we're here.  Conflict and challenges to our beliefs keep us from wallowing in complacent ignorance of greater understanding.  If our past beliefs do not survive scrutiny from our own logic then they were weak beliefs and of no use to us.  We learn and improve ourselves.
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo
> 
> 
> I thought that was what we are doing?




Mr. Denton, you make my point very clearly.
This forum isn't the proper place for him or anyone else to decide if they should believe/accept Christianity or not.

I'm not demeaning this forum.  I've made about 11,000 comments on this spiritual forum through the years and I've read at least 10 times that many.

Hawg says the things he's read on this forum seems to be leading him to no longer believe in Christianity.  That's what I responded to.

Why should Hawg base any of his beliefs on something you've said?
.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> Do you believe that God knew that Moses would intercede and He would respond when Moses was floating around in the reeds in his basket?



A plan cannot include a change in plan.  It would no longer be a change in plan, it would be part of the plan.  A successful intercession would be a change, by definition.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> A plan cannot include a change in plan.  It would no longer be a change in plan, it would be part of the plan.  A successful intercession would be a change, by definition.



I'm sure you think that your statement responds to my question, but that would only be true if it had been written by God.  Assuming that it was not, I'll restate my question.

"Do you believe that God knew that Moses would intercede and He would respond when Moses was floating around in the reeds in his basket?"


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> I'm sure you think that your statement responds to my question, but that would only be true if it had been written by God.  Assuming that it was not, I'll restate my question.
> 
> "Do you believe that God knew that Moses would intercede and He would respond when Moses was floating around in the reeds in his basket?"



The answer is no.  I do not believe God knows the future.  I believe it is by design because God did not want to know the future.  I believe that God designed a system in which He could actually attain victories as opposed to playing out a boring script.  I believe that God can make anything happen that He wants to happen so when something is prophesied, He simply makes it happen as opposed to simply providing a sneak peek into the known future.  I do not believe that this limits God's power in the least because the system is whatever God wants it to be.


----------



## Denton

Ronnie T said:


> Mr. Denton, you make my point very clearly.
> This forum isn't the proper place for him or anyone else to decide if they should believe/accept Christianity or not.
> 
> I'm not demeaning this forum.  I've made about 11,000 comments on this spiritual forum through the years and I've read at least 10 times that many.
> 
> Hawg says the things he's read on this forum seems to be leading him to no longer believe in Christianity.  That's what I responded to.
> 
> Why should Hawg base any of his beliefs on something you've said?
> .



I respect how long you've been here and I respect your comments above and in other threads as a knowledgeable commentator who has studied and thought about the bible and his belief for some time.  My beliefs about Christians and Christianity are certainly influenced by what you say. 

Instead of hijacking this thread I'd like to start another to discuss your statements above because they are interesting. Especially about whether or not we should be basing our beliefs on what we read here. 

Finally, I apologize for responding so forcefully to your response to Hawg. I felt it was mean to say that commentators here were not smart enough to be influential on our beliefs.


----------



## Big7

rjcruiser said:


> Seems pretty clear to me.
> 
> 1. He Predestined
> 2. He Called
> 3. He Justified
> 4. He Glorified
> 
> Looks like Salvation is from God....not much room in there for "me" and "I"



Gave you a brain and free will, complete with instructions.

It's up to you..

If you are guaranteed through pre-destination or an act
simply to say "I'm Saved", what's the point?

You gonna go where you gonna go. Right?


----------



## Big7

ambush80 said:


> Yeah......being a slave is way less desirable than being a sheep.



You ever been one? Just curious...


----------



## Israel

I keep hearing about "future"...about "going someplace"...sometime...eventually.

What does all that mean?


----------



## HawgJawl

Israel said:


> I keep hearing about "future"...about "going someplace"...sometime...eventually.
> 
> What does all that mean?



It means existing in a place and time that is a result of your own choices and actions even if God exerts some measure of control over what options are presented to you.  It includes some choices that will either be obedient or disobedient to God.  It includes some choices that will either bringing glory to God or not.  It includes the result of some choices being either pleasing to God possibly producing blessings or displeasing to God provoking anger and possibly wrath.  It does not involve a script.


----------



## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> It means existing in a place and time that is a result of your own choices and actions even if God exerts some measure of control over what options are presented to you.  It includes some choices that will either be obedient or disobedient to God.  It includes some choices that will either bringing glory to God or not.  It includes the result of some choices being either pleasing to God possibly producing blessings or displeasing to God provoking anger and possibly wrath.  It does not involve a script.



Can one be in a place that's a result of God's choices...and actions in Christ?


----------



## Big7

Still ain't heard nobody tell me they was one????


----------



## HawgJawl

Israel said:


> Can one be in a place that's a result of God's choices...and actions in Christ?



Sure. That's what I meant by what is highlighted blue.



HawgJawl said:


> It means existing in a place and time that is a result of your own choices and actions even if God exerts some measure of control over what options are presented to you. It includes some choices that will either be obedient or disobedient to God.  It includes some choices that will either bringing glory to God or not.  It includes the result of some choices being either pleasing to God possibly producing blessings or displeasing to God provoking anger and possibly wrath.  It does not involve a script.


----------



## gemcgrew

HawgJawl said:


> It means existing in a place and time that is a result of your own choices and actions even if God exerts some measure of control over what options are presented to you.  It includes some choices that will either be obedient or disobedient to God.  It includes some choices that will either bringing glory to God or not.  It includes the result of some choices being either pleasing to God possibly producing blessings or displeasing to God provoking anger and possibly wrath.  It does not involve a script.


Does...Not...Compute...


----------



## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> Does...Not...Compute...



What does not compute is a belief that God hates something that He created and completely controlled.  

Scripture tells us that what God created was good.

Scripture tells us that there are things in this world that are not good and that God does not like wickedness.

I have trouble comprehending the amount of scripture a person would have to ignore in order to hold the belief that God created wickedness.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> It means existing in a place and time that is a result of your own choices and actions even if God exerts some measure of control over what options are presented to you.  It includes some choices that will either be obedient or disobedient to God.  It includes some choices that will either bringing glory to God or not.  It includes the result of some choices being either pleasing to God possibly producing blessings or displeasing to God provoking anger and possibly wrath.  It does not involve a script.



I have reread this several times since its’ posting, being fascinated by the consistency among the propositions in presenting a narrow power gap between Creator and creation.  That, and the allure of my libertarian choice “bringing glory to God or not”.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> I have reread this several times since its’ posting, being fascinated by the consistency among the propositions in presenting a narrow power gap between Creator and creation.  That, and the allure of my libertarian choice “bringing glory to God or not”.





HawgJawl said:


> What does not compute is a belief that God hates something that He created and completely controlled.
> 
> Scripture tells us that what God created was good.
> 
> Scripture tells us that there are things in this world that are not good and that God does not like wickedness.
> 
> I have trouble comprehending the amount of scripture a person would have to ignore in order to hold the belief that God created wickedness.



So, do you believe that God created wickedness?


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## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> So, do you believe that God created wickedness?


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## Israel

I think of all the purpose, will, choice, I put into being born into this world.
Then, it makes sense.

Someone "else" is doing everything.

Before I was forced, made, brought...and /or bought...to see Jesus...I was sure that that "someone else" was a trickster. (In truth, to me, everyone else was)

Being...apart from God, would be the cruelest trick of all.
But that is..."the" lie. 

There is no being apart from God.

I remember the night, now, as it has been brought back to me "by someone", when, as a child, I lay in bed and considered the people I called my parents as they slept in the next room.
I did the forbidden thing with them, I did the abhorrent thing with them. 

I deconstructed them.

I thought of all the "pull" their being had upon me...all the calling forth their being had upon me, all the call to relating their being had upon me...and all I could see of them was some eyes, a pair of mouths, and some other soft tissues. 

What was the "power" of these two things? If, indeed, that's all they were? Was there nothing else besides "soft tissue"? Was there nothing more "real" than what I perceived? 

How could my gods be so...finite? 
How could I so easily contain them in my eye? My apprehensions?

I really felt fear. And emptiness. And sorrow.

My gods were no better than I could see.

But that, of course, was when I was blind.


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## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> I have reread this several times since its’ posting, being fascinated by the consistency among the propositions in presenting a narrow power gap between Creator and creation.  That, and the allure of my libertarian choice “bringing glory to God or not”.



When the scientist, who creates the maze and holds the very life of the lab rat in his hands, decides to present choices of different routes for the lab rat, I fail to see how this "choice" narrows the power gap between the scientist and the lab rat.


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## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


>



Was post #508 too far off topic?


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## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> When the scientist, who creates the maze and holds the very life of the lab rat in his hands, decides to present choices of different routes for the lab rat, I fail to see how this "choice" narrows the power gap between the scientist and the lab rat.





HawgJawl said:


> I view it like we are lab rats and God is the scientist in control of the maze.  God can place us anywhere in the maze He wishes.  God can place any obstacles, distractions, temptations, etc. in our path He wishes.  God can change the layout of the maze by opening and closing doors as He wishes.  God can pretty much guarantee we will go where He wants us to go if He opens and closes the right doors and lures us with cheese or pokes us in the rear with a stick.  If God wants a specific outcome, He can make it happen, however, the more choices the rat has, the more entertaining and rewarding the entire experiment is.



I, somehow, missed this analogy when it was first posted.

It strikes me as very negatively deterministic.

As speculative as it is; if I had received this view of God from Scripture and Spirit, I believe I too would seek a theology which promised the least possible influence of God in my life.

As certain as I am that my offering will be weightless, I would, nonetheless, recommend starting fresh at “In the beginning God …” and see if a different God-view evolves.  Perhaps it would be appropriate to give some emphasis to “I will take you for My people, and I will be your God; and you shall know that I am the LORD your God”.


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## Israel

2Co_12:14  Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: _for I seek not yours, but you_: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children. 

It is not strange that the apostle called by the Master's voice, to the Master's work would have to, again and again remind the children he had no evil designs upon them for possession of their goods, intended no ill toward them, but instead desired them, for themselves....and in that desire his only hope of exchange of substance was from him, toward them.

What is "laid up" is required to be grown up to apprehend, not due to an unfitness of nature (for a child is an heir at first breath), but that being rightly handled ensures minimal wounds, minimal sorrows, minimal of regrets.
It is perfectly appropriate for a baby to fill the house with wailing cries at mealtime, a child..less so, a teenager to know he will not die waiting for dinner, and an adult under whose charge the stores are supplied and laid out, to not consider eating till all her household is rightly fed first.

Our God gave this understanding to that apostle.
No tricks, no gimmicks to gain advantage in scheming, no sleight of hand at last minute to have offered one thing, and then provide something less. No purpose of "possession" except salvation from every unimaginable grief that, were this stranger to leave us alone, stop bothering us, stop hounding us, would overtake us in its abysmal hopelessness.

We like being pursued by those upon whom we have set our seal of approval as worthy of catching us.
But when the lowly trashman is seen continually lurking about, coming to our door and introducing himself and telling us he would like to be our friend, then, ah then...we wonder "what is he really after?"

And so it is.


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## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> As speculative as it is; if I had received this view of God from Scripture and Spirit, I believe I too would seek a theology which promised the least possible influence of God in my life.



If I accepted the view that God directly controls everything I do and every thought that rattles around in my head, how could I feel any responsibility for my actions or thoughts?  If it works that way, would it not be an accurate excuse to say "God made me do it."?


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## hummerpoo

Luke 18:
17.	"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it ."

Considering what comes before and after this verse, and the context of similar statements elsewhere in scripture, I believe that “like a child” refers to the humble acceptance of a child that what his parent tells him is true, and will accrue to his well-being.

Do you have a source that you accept as true on its’ face, and will accrue to your well-being?




HawgJawl said:


> If I accepted the view that God directly controls everything I do and every thought that rattles around in my head, how could I feel any responsibility for my actions or thoughts?  If it works that way, would it not be an accurate excuse to say "God made me do it."?



I can imagine a set of clarifications of terms in the hypothetical statement that would make the assertion of the second question accurate, but those clarifications would not yield a commonly held doctrinal position of which I am aware, in that neither <[first-order]> regeneration nor unlimited omniscience would be included.


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## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> Luke 18:
> 17.	"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it ."
> 
> Considering what comes before and after this verse, and the context of similar statements elsewhere in scripture, I believe that “like a child” refers to the humble acceptance of a child that what his parent tells him is true, and will accrue to his well-being.
> 
> Do you have a source that you accept as true on its’ face, and will accrue to your well-being?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can imagine a set of clarifications of terms in the hypothetical statement that would make the assertion of the second question accurate, but those clarifications would not yield a commonly held doctrinal position of which I am aware, in that neither <[first-order]> regeneration nor unlimited omniscience would be included.



Since there are so many different and conflicting doctrinal positions which are all based upon the same Bible, how is it that we know which one is correct?  (Other than just going to the church you feel most comfortable in, of course.)


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## hummerpoo

Luke 18:
17. "Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it."

Considering what comes before and after this verse, and the context of similar statements elsewhere in scripture, I believe that “like a child” refers to the humble acceptance of a child that what his parent tells him is true, and will accrue to his well-being.

Do you have a source that you accept as true on its’ face, and trust that it will accrue to your well-being?




HawgJawl said:


> Since there are so many different and conflicting doctrinal positions which are all based upon the same Bible, how is it that we know which one is correct?  (Other than just going to the church you feel most comfortable in, of course.)



I am told that the best way to learn to identify a counterfeit $100 bill is to study a real $100 bill.  Of course, you must trust that you have a real one to study.

The same would apply to doctrine (I don’t like that word, it’s not man’s doctrine that we are concerned with, it’s God’s truth).

You appear to have a problem, since you appear not to have anything you trust to be true (I refer to your discussion today on another thread).  We are dealing with the metaphysical here; if you do not believe truth is there to be found, you will never find it.

There is no conflict between Moses and Paul.  Neither do I think that Jesus, nor Paul, nor Peter, nor John ended anything that was started with Abraham or Moses; and no, I am not prepared to attempt to show all of that; God willing, that is my retirement project (at this point I’m not even sure that God wants me to retire from the world’s work).


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## mtnwoman

HawgJawl said:


> In order for the terms "obedience" or "disobedience" to apply to a situation, does it not require the freedom to choose between the two?



Absolutely


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## mtnwoman

HawgJawl said:


> Since there are so many different and conflicting doctrinal positions which are all based upon the same Bible, how is it that we know which one is correct?  (Other than just going to the church you feel most comfortable in, of course.)



I went to a 'for whosover believeth in Him', and not a 'He will choose you if He so desires church'....of course 'for whosoever' is scripture.  I do agree that some are chosen against their free will...Jonah, Paul, Job, and have no choice in the matter. I don't fall into that category, most of us don't.  Some are chosen by God for His purpose. All of us are called to salvation.  I am not a Paul, or a Jonah forced into action, I am a sheep, I choose to follow or not.

Christ elected for everyone to be saved, we all just don't elect to be saved, and yes He knows who will and who won't choose to be of the elect, He just doesn't put in our hearts to deny Him...He calls us all.....we follow or we don't.  Can He take over our free will, or course He can. But for me personally, He chose me, as He chose us all, and I 'believeth' in Him.


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## mtnwoman

HawgJawl said:


> If I accepted the view that God directly controls everything I do and every thought that rattles around in my head, how could I feel any responsibility for my actions or thoughts?  If it works that way, would it not be an accurate excuse to say "God made me do it."?



If I had no free will, I would not sin. I do. I challenge anyone who says they do not sin and sin is not in God's will for any of us. If you sin, you have free will to do so.


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## gemcgrew

mtnwoman said:


> If I had no free will, I would not sin. I do. I challenge anyone who says they do not sin and sin is not in God's will for any of us. If you sin, you have free will to do so.


Why do you sin? What is so powerful that your will is not free of it's influence? If your will is influenced by something more powerful than itself, why do you declare it to be free?

Or perhaps the "all things work together for good" includes our sins. God has a perfect Purpose for sin.


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## hobbs27

I'm curious what anyone thinks about this question. Would sin exist if God had no laws or commandments?


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> I'm curious what anyone thinks about this question. Would sin exist if God had no laws or commandments?



No, sin would not exist.
.


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## gordon 2

Covenants have always had performance clauses--from the Garden of Eden to today. Performance clauses imply the free will to do them fully, in part or not at all.


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## Ronnie T

If I can ever come up with an outline that will allow me to do it in 30 minutes, I want to do a sermon on the word "Therefore" as found in the Bible.

There are many New Testament chapters that begin with that word....... Therefore,

Some important stuff found after a Holy Spirit 'therefore'.


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## jkkj

Therefore.... I Am Who I Am !!!!!


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## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> Covenants have always had performance clauses--from the Garden of Eden to today. Performance clauses imply the free will to do them fully, in part or not at all.


Interesting...

I would say that a "performance clause" cancels any notion of "free will".


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## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> God does not predestine Sin.  That being said, we are all evil and can only choose sin apart from God.  See Rom 3:10-12.
> 
> Yes...God did predestine their deaths.  See Eccl 3.  God has appointed a time for everything.



I wish that you would make up your mind.


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## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> Interesting...
> 
> I would say that a "performance clause" cancels any notion of "free will".




No wait! You don't understand.  It does not!  Maybe it does at grand-ma's house but not in the spiritual realm. Listen to me!


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## Israel

gemcgrew said:


> I wish that you would make up your mind.


Perhaps it's not a sin to not be God..."For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..."
Perhaps the sin is not admitting that in truth, we are not?
And seeing who is, while not seeking to usurp him, restores a glory lost...accomplishing all at once...no longer the desire to be a  prideful rebel that is the root of all sin....that causes glory to be lost.

I love my wife, and like "being with her"...and I don't consider "trying to be her" (whoa...but there can be subtleties to that I need to explore) but there's this thing to be dealt with and recognized with God...sometimes the desire to unseat him, outstrips the desire to be with him.

(Those subtleties: Those times when "I" would have her be different..._for me_.

Can it be rebellion is always no more than simply considering to have something "better" according to the imagination?)
Either everything is perfect...just the way it is...because God is perfect and in complete control...or I am suffering diminished sight.

5218 hypakoá¸— (from191 /akoúÅ�, "to hear" and 5259 /hypó, "beneath") â€“ i.e. obedience â€“ literally, "submission to what is heard" (WS, 695), i.e. obedience as the response to someone speaking. This refers both to an earthly voice and the Lord's voice (see 2 Cor 10:5; 1 Pet 1:2). 

The Lord is not ha ha funny, but when I consider certain things...there surely is an aha! funny.
Defective hearing leads to less than perfect obedience...defective understanding, likewise...YET, I am persuaded the intent to obey...even in the most rudimentary attempts, stumbling, awkward, clumsily crashing about and upsetting every applecart and destroying all the china in the shop...is OK with Daddy..because HE KNOWS all things. And even that particular clumsiness is for a specific purpose, at a specific time for a particular situation. He is after all, the Lord of damage control. He doesn't encourage carelessness, and has a way of showing us our own. If we are willing to learn both hearing and seeing skills, we can better apprehend the wisdom of measure twice, cut once.


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