# What kind of evidence do you want?



## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

Besides God appearing to you, is there any other evidence that would convince you He is real?


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## vowell462 (Jul 16, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Besides God appearing to you, is there any other evidence that would convince you He is real?



Evidence? If we had some pretty good evidence I would consider it. Although, Ive never really ruled out the possibilty, just pretty much ruled out the bible. I dont think there is evidence. Evidence cant be found in the bible and surely cant be found by the people who have a " personal relationship" or " talk to jesus" and claim that they have been sent to spread the word by god.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 16, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> If we had some pretty good evidence I would consider it.



OK, but what's your definition of "pretty good evidence"?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

Your thread spurred a thought of my on. So many times my wierd thoughts tend to derail someones thread so I started my own. But I will be tunned in on this one


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

In the NT, miracles were performed as confirming it as truth. Would miracles "IF" they were performed now be evidence? I realize it is "IF"


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> Evidence? If we had some pretty good evidence I would consider it. Although, Ive never really ruled out the possibilty, just pretty much ruled out the bible. I dont think there is evidence. Evidence cant be found in the bible and surely cant be found by the people who have a " personal relationship" or " talk to jesus" and claim that they have been sent to spread the word by god.





centerpin fan said:


> OK, but what's your definition of "pretty good evidence"?



This is the gist of the thread, I hear constantly that "if there were some verifiable evidence" that it might make some difference in a non believers worldview. I'm trying to figure out exactly what that evidence needs to be for a non believer.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> In the NT, miracles were performed as confirming it as truth. Would miracles "IF" they were performed now be evidence? I realize it is "IF"



I think so, but not totally, faith still must play a role. Many people met Jesus and witnessed His miracles and did not believe, which again, is why faith must play a role.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2012)

How about the actual writings of a God. Bound in books that would survive the harshest conditions and time. Worded in a universally understood text that no one has ever seen yet can read easily. Having those writings appear worldwide and dating back  before of Earths existence. Writing so strong that there is no doubt, no error, no fallibility. Writing that spans cultures and is universally accepted. In addition, a visit from time to time universally or individually.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

bullethead said:


> How about the actual writings of a God.


How would you know if the words were actually God's?



> Worded in a universally understood text that no one has ever seen yet can read easily. Having those writings appear worldwide and dating back  before of Earths existence. Writing so strong that there is no doubt, no error, no fallibility.


What exactly do you mean "writing that is so strong"? Do you mean like predicting the future or maybe our name and a description of every individual is in it?

What if some of the writings went against something you thought to be true? Would you change your mind, or would you chalk it up to errors by man?



> Writing that spans cultures and is universally accepted.


How does universal acceptance come into play for you? Why would you give credit to something that is, let's say 90% accepted? After all, most of the people thought the earth was flat at one point in time.


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## TheBishop (Jul 16, 2012)

Good question. But first are we talking about god of the bible,  or  god in general, and how do we know that it is a he?   

It would not take much to convince me of a god, but the god of the bible would take a considerable amount.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Good question. But first are we talking about god of the bible,  or  god in general, and how do we know that it is a he?


We could talk about the God of the bible, or just a god in general. I am biased in saying "He", so you'll have to excuse that for this discussion.



> It would not take much to convince me of a god, but the god of the bible would take a considerable amount.


What exactly would it take, apart from God actually appearing to you? You could start with any god first, then you could give us what it would take for the God of the bible.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

Would the evidence be that which required zero faith? If so, why is faith dismissed, what exactly is the problem with faith?


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## atlashunter (Jul 16, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> This is the gist of the thread, I hear constantly that "if there were some verifiable evidence" that it might make some difference in a non believers worldview. I'm trying to figure out exactly what that evidence needs to be for a non believer.



There are plenty of gods which you do not believe in. What sort of evidence would it take for you to change your mind about them?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> *There are plenty of gods which you do not believe in.* What sort of evidence would it take for you to change your mind about them?


LOL, I never thought about that. We live in our own little bubble


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## Four (Jul 16, 2012)

It all depends on the definition of God... 

Some of the definitions attributed to deities are paradoxical, which means i don't think there could be evidence of them... much like asking "What evidence would you accept as proof of the existence of a square circle, without seeing one?"

I know you said "besides god appearing to you" but i wouldn't even expect that... i would have to have a god appear to multiple people, and have it recorded, etc... Sometimes our personal experiences aren't objective.. we need redundancy.

I'm trying to answer this question but TBH its to ambiguous.. the concept of god is such a loaded one that unless the definition is pinned down more i cant give you a better one.

It's like a dragon.. sometimes they have 4 legs, sometimes 2, sometimes they fly, some don't, some live in the water, some can do magic.  So if you were to show me a big flying lizard... That still might not be a 'dragon' if it doesn't breath fire etc... The god you show me could just be an alien... time traveler, some advanced being.. then again, what's the difference?


Thanks for the question string, made for some interesting thoughts...


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## Four (Jul 16, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I never thought about that. We live in our own little bubble



I've often heard that theists are 99.999% atheist, since they don't believe in the other 99,999 gods.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> There are plenty of gods which you do not believe in. What sort of evidence would it take for you to change your mind about them?


You can section up most of the worlds religions into three seperate catagories, Only the universe exists(naturalist, atheist), only God exists(hinduism,buddhism, any pantheist religions) and both God and the universe exist(Christianity,Judaism, Islam)

I put my faith in the last catagory because of the evidence I have found and accepted for Jesus Christ. So, that leaves me with the answer of there is no evidence available for me to believe in anything but the God of the bible. The exclusivity of Christ i.e. "No one comes unto the Father except through me",  let's me know there is not enough evidence for any other gods.


What is your answer to the OP?


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

Four said:


> It all depends on the definition of God...
> 
> Some of the definitions attributed to deities are paradoxical, which means i don't think there could be evidence of them... much like asking "What evidence would you accept as proof of the existence of a square circle, without seeing one?"
> 
> ...



Good point, I'll have to get back with ya tomorrow, leaving work now!


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## Four (Jul 16, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Good point, I'll have to get back with ya tomorrow, leaving work now!



me too!


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## Six million dollar ham (Jul 16, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Besides God appearing to you, is there any other evidence that would convince you He is real?



Talking dogs.  Seriously.


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## Lukikus2 (Jul 16, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Talking dogs.  Seriously.



Or flying elephants?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 16, 2012)

Lukikus2 said:


> Or flying elephants?



I once saw a barnyard dance and a fireside chat. It mighta been the moonshine though.


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## Asath (Jul 16, 2012)

“I put my faith in the last catagory because of the evidence I have found and accepted for Jesus Christ.”

Please, we beg of you, reveal that ‘evidence’ to the rest of us poor, unenlightened fools?  Believe me, we are SO ready to bow down, sing praises, and fall to our knees in worship to YOUR testimony . . . Heck, we’ll raise our voices to YOU, as the only ONE who REALLY KNOWS . . . 

C’mon.  

What ‘evidence’ would I accept?  Rather a self-referential question, isn’t it?  Regardless of the response, it will be referred back to YOUR ‘evidence,’ which doesn’t actually exist – So why are you bothering us with this nonsense? You have no ‘evidence.’  Nobody does.  Your ‘evidence’ is assertion, which is politics, as opposed to truth.

If you have an invisible friend that you want us ALL to Believe in, then put Him/Her/It up on display, so we can see that for ourselves.  Taking only YOUR word for it is a pretty dangerous way to conduct our lives, and leaves us open to the possibility that you are crazier than a bag of rats.  Most rational folks tend to believe in things that turn out to be true.  Not a single ‘god’ in all of recorded history has turned out to answer to the many temples built in their honor, and we have no real reason to think that yours will be any different.

We’ll Believe it when we see it.  Unfortunately, you modern ‘believers’ seem like little more than relics of ancient ‘believers,’ who also had nothing to show other than their own strident assertions.  

Any sort of actual ‘evidence’ would do.  But there just isn’t any.  Oops.


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

Four said:


> It all depends on the definition of God...
> 
> Some of the definitions attributed to deities are paradoxical, which means i don't think there could be evidence of them... much like asking "What evidence would you accept as proof of the existence of a square circle, without seeing one?"
> 
> ...



For this particular question,and since most of the believers that hang out in this forum are of the Christian pursuation, we can just use the God of the bible. 

If sciencetists were to suddenly announce they have a theoretical mathmatical equation that could detect God, or at least what they think is a god, would that have any influence in your worldview?


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

Asath said:


> “I put my faith in the last catagory because of the evidence I have found and accepted for Jesus Christ.”
> 
> Please, we beg of you, reveal that ‘evidence’ to the rest of us poor, unenlightened fools?  Believe me, we are SO ready to bow down, sing praises, and fall to our knees in worship to YOUR testimony . . . Heck, we’ll raise our voices to YOU, as the only ONE who REALLY KNOWS . . .
> 
> C’mon.


I don't want your voice raised to me, and I'm not the only one who knows, there are millions who know.

Yes, I have my personal testimony and I also have faith, both which I cannot prove to you. But the historical evidence of the veracity of the bible and Jesus Himself are also evidence I choose to put faith in.  



> What ‘evidence’ would I accept?  Rather a self-referential question, isn’t it?  Regardless of the response, it will be referred back to YOUR ‘evidence,’ which doesn’t actually exist – So why are you bothering us with this nonsense? You have no ‘evidence.’  Nobody does.  Your ‘evidence’ is assertion, which is politics, as opposed to truth.


Nothing is being "referred back to my evidence", it's a simple question that was meant to get a discussion going. A discussion on what evidence you would need to believe in the God of Christianity, which you have not enlightened us with yet.



> If you have an invisible friend that you want us ALL to Believe in, then put Him/Her/It up on display, so we can see that for ourselves.  Taking only YOUR word for it is a pretty dangerous way to conduct our lives, and leaves us open to the possibility that you are crazier than a bag of rats.  Most rational folks tend to believe in things that turn out to be true.  Not a single ‘god’ in all of recorded history has turned out to answer to the many temples built in their honor, and we have no real reason to think that yours will be any different.
> 
> We’ll Believe it when we see it.  Unfortunately, you modern ‘believers’ seem like little more than relics of ancient ‘believers,’ who also had nothing to show other than their own strident assertions.



The OP was very short, and it doesn't seem like you read all of it. I'll post it again and highlight the important part for you 



stringmusic said:


> *Besides God appearing to you*, is there any other evidence that would convince you He is real?





Asath said:


> Any sort of actual ‘evidence’ would do.  But there just isn’t any.  Oops


Well, let's hear it, what sort of actual evidence do you want?


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## Four (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> For this particular question,and since most of the believers that hang out in this forum are of the Christian pursuation, we can just use the God of the bible.



I'm sorry if it sounds like i'm being obtuse, but the god of the christian bible isn't really specific enough, with the amount of variations on the doctrine.

That being said lets see if i can take a shot... If i saw a guy that told me he was reincarnation of jesus, and he could turn water into wine (by prayer, not fermentation!) and we could lab record it and have it verified by multiple people.. that might at least open me up to lending credence to the christian doctrine.

Naturally if revelations was happening i would start to become suspicious (angels riding horses murdering people)

If the whole left behind thing happened it would get me thinking (all Christians disappearing or some such)

The problem is, most of this stuff falls in the realm of scientifically verifiable 'miracles'.. the problem is applying them to a source, many of the big known christian miraclesand events are common with other religions.. If it was explained physically / scientifically that would hurt the credibility. The best way to source it to Christianity is for the christian god(s) to come and claim it.



stringmusic said:


> If sciencetists were to suddenly announce they have a theoretical mathmatical equation that could detect God, or at least what they think is a god, would that have any influence in your worldview?



It would be pretty darn cool... so we're talking about an instrument that could detect something godlike? (consciousness without matter?) If we could prove / find an example of consciousness without matter.. that would be pretty freaking cool...

I have a hard time with calling anything God though, which is my main issue with the question. Generally we find something, or hypothesis about the existence of something due to observations, then we name it. God is kinda backwards. I might be an atheist to a traditional definition of god, but not necessarily to some definitions.


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## vowell462 (Jul 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, but what's your definition of "pretty good evidence"?



Evidence is something that furnishes proof. I have never seen anyone or anything provide that. You can twist it around all you want, but there is not any evidence and therfore there is no proof. Its all faith, or belief, or whatever you feel like calling it at the moment. No evidence, no proof. It simply is what it is.


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## vowell462 (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> This is the gist of the thread, I hear constantly that "if there were some verifiable evidence" that it might make some difference in a non believers worldview. I'm trying to figure out exactly what that evidence needs to be for a non believer.



Simple. ANY evidence that provides proof.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> Evidence is something that furnishes proof.



OK, so give me an example of "something".  I'm not twisting anything.  I'm just asking what I thought was simple question.  Both bullethead and Mr. Ham gave specific items they would accept.  What's yours?


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## WTM45 (Jul 17, 2012)

Any true deity, intelligent designer or divine creator would know exactly what my own individual mind needs in order to convince me of his/her/its existance and would easily answer my deepest questions.  These questions have not been answered yet.


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

WTM45 said:


> Any true deity, intelligent designer or divine creator would know exactly what my own individual mind needs in order to convince me of his/her/its existance and would easily answer my deepest questions.  These questions have not been answered yet.



Wouldn't you have to be God yourself to make that statement, or, at least have been personally told by God this is what He would do?


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

It sounds like miracles is the winning factor as evidence for the non believers. That evidence still has the sight qualification. 

Is seeing God, or seeing God do something the only way some would believe? Why is faith viewed as not acceptable?


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

The more I have thought about it the more I believe four is right. We need to eastablish an accurate refined definition of what exactly we call god before we can decide what kind of evidence is needed to prove its exsitence. Its just to broad to say what evidence would prove the exsitence of god.  If we are talking an omnipotent being WTM45 would be correct.  He could simply will me to know,  but a diety that requires faith from his servants is a little more impractical to prove. 

So I guess a better approach would be what are the characteristics of the diety that we require evidence of?


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## drippin' rock (Jul 17, 2012)

Thomas had Jesus standing directly in front of him showing him his nailed scarred hands.  I have a 2000 year old story about nail scarred hands.  If Thomas doubted after a few days, what would 2000 years do?

The main characters of the Bible supposedly had one on one relationships with either God or Jesus, meaning God or Jesus spoke directly to them.  They had tangible, visceral evidence presented to them.  According to the Bible, God spoke with an actual voice to folks.  He provided prophets with the ability to perform real miracles to get people to turn towards him.  Jesus had the same gift.   He made the blind see.  He brought the dead back to life.  He did this in front of folks to show them his validity.

Fast forward and what we have are dusty stories that are easily dispelled, and a bunch of folks saying things like, "You just have to believe!"

The original OP asked what it would take besides God appearing.  My answer is nothing.  If God appears before me, I won't need anything else.  Problem is I doubt that will happen.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> The more I have thought about it the more I believe four is right. We need to eastablish an accurate refined definition of what exactly we call god before we can decide what kind of evidence is needed to prove its exsitence. Its just to broad to say what evidence would prove the exsitence of god.  If we are talking an omnipotent being WTM45 would be correct.  He could simply will me to know,  but a diety that requires faith from his servants is a little more impractical to prove.
> 
> So I guess a better approach would be what are the characteristics of the diety that we require evidence of?



By my count, you have not answered the OP, but you have asked two further questions.

What a shock.


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> Thomas had Jesus standing directly in front of him showing him his nailed scarred hands.  I have a 2000 year old story about nail scarred hands.  If Thomas doubted after a few days, what would 2000 years do?
> 
> The main characters of the Bible supposedly had one on one relationships with either God or Jesus, meaning God or Jesus spoke directly to them.  They had tangible, visceral evidence presented to them.  According to the Bible, God spoke with an actual voice to folks.  He provided prophets with the ability to perform real miracles to get people to turn towards him.  Jesus had the same gift.   He made the blind see.  He brought the dead back to life.  He did this in front of folks to show them his validity.
> 
> ...


You wouldn't chalk it up to a hilutionation from a burrito? After a couple of days, would you stop and think "did that REALLY happen?"


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## drippin' rock (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> It sounds like miracles is the winning factor as evidence for the non believers. That evidence still has the sight qualification.
> 
> Is seeing God, or seeing God do something the only way some would believe? Why is faith viewed as not acceptable?



What makes us different?  Why do you have faith and I do not?


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> What makes us different?  Why do you have faith and I do not?



I don't know, that is a question only you can answer.


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## drippin' rock (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You wouldn't chalk it up to a hilutionation from a burrito? After a couple of days, would you stop and think "did that REALLY happen?"



That's funny.  Thank you!  I needed that.

I guess my answer is I trust my own intuition and intelligence.  I feel if God does exist and did choose to make himself known to me, there would be no question.  Hasn't happened yet.


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> That's funny.  Thank you!  I needed that.
> 
> I guess my answer is I trust my own intuition and intelligence.  I feel if God does exist and did choose to make himself known to me, there would be no question.  *Hasn't happened yet*.



I hope that changes.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You wouldn't chalk it up to a hilutionation from a burrito?



That's the "Ebenezer Scrooge defense".  I believe it would be invoked by most skeptics.


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## drippin' rock (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know, that is a question only you can answer.



An example that has been batted around here once or twice:

A man has a daughter.  He loves her more than life itself.  She gets sick.  He has faith.  One possiblity is she dies.  His faith is shaken to the core, but he chooses to believe it's God's will and she is in a better place.  That faith helps him deal with the suffering but does not prove God's existence.  All it proves is his willingness to hold onto a belief system.

Another possiblity is she lives.  Hallaluhah!  God answered my prayers. Thank you Jesus.  

Faith gives you an out no matter what happens.  Faith is interpretive.  I don't see how it "proves" anything.


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> By my count, you have not answered the OP, but you have asked two further questions.
> 
> What a shock.



I'm sorry that I need clarification in order to answer the original OP.  He is asking for something specific with very unclear parameters, which makes it difficult to answer.  I am not the only one that has pointed that out.  

I think you're questaphobic or something.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I think you're questaphobic or something.



Something.

BTW, how about using a different pic for your avatar -- one that shows your eyebrows?


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

I like my avatar. That thing is a toad, biggest bass I've weighed in a tournament, and the most money I ever won with the fewest fish.  Besides you'd be jealous of my eyebrows women think they're sexy.


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Something.
> 
> BTW, how about using a different pic for your avatar -- one that shows your eyebrows?



You are on a roll today!!!


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> An example that has been batted around here once or twice:
> 
> A man has a daughter.  He loves her more than life itself.  She gets sick.  He has faith.  One possiblity is she dies.  His faith is shaken to the core, but he chooses to believe it's God's will and she is in a better place.  That faith helps him deal with the suffering but does not prove God's existence.  All it proves is his willingness to hold onto a belief system.
> 
> ...



Faith doesn't prove anything, I don't think it's meant too. You have a myriad of things to put faith in, and which things you choose is what defines a person.

Here is a question, why is it a problem that faith "gives you an out"? If it is true that it indeed does, does that make it unacceptable as a part of your worldview?


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## jmharris23 (Jul 17, 2012)

I think part of the real issue in this forum and in this thread is this verse, " 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
" I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to the Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

If the bible is true,and while I know that you believe it is not, if it is, then this verse describes most unbelievers. 

Almost every discussion in here ultimately comes downs to one side saying, I am much too smart to believe such foolishness that is found in an old book written by a bunch of men, and anyone who does believe it is a moron. 

Then the other side says, well just have faith. The bible said this would happen so here we are. 


Of course, if the bible is not true, then none of what gets discussed in this forum matters.


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Here is a question, why is it a problem that faith "gives you an out"? If it is true that it indeed does, does that make it unacceptable as a part of your worldview?



To me it does. I want to KNOW.  Belief to me,  is lack of knowledge.  Belief just prompts me to search more.  I don't want to accept that I have faith the answer is correct, I want to know the answer is correct.  

So can I get some characteristics please so I may atepmt to answer your OP? (I know centerpin I asked another one of those dasterdly questions).


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> If the bible is not true, then none of what gets discussed in this forum matters.



I disagree 110%.  If the bible isn't true then what is discussed a few floors up is truely unimportant but what is discussed here is highly important.  Then the discussion here is the actual search for truth, and in the forum above is just utter nonsense.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I like my avatar. That thing is a toad, biggest bass I've weighed in a tournament, and the most money I ever won with the fewest fish.  Besides you'd be jealous of my eyebrows women think they're sexy.



That is a nice bass.  I'll have to take your word on the appeal of your eyebrows ... IF you still have them.


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> That is a nice bass.  I'll have to take your word on the appeal of your eyebrows ... IF you still have them.



I shaved somewhere other than my face once, just once, and will never do that again.


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2012)

WTM45 said:


> Any true deity, intelligent designer or divine creator would know exactly what my own individual mind needs in order to convince me of his/her/its existance and would easily answer my deepest questions.  These questions have not been answered yet.



POW! That was solid! High-5 to WTM45!!


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> POW! That was solid! High-5 to WTM45!!



Since you agree with WTM45's statement, will you answer the questions I originally posted for him?


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> To me it does. I want to KNOW.  Belief to me,  is lack of knowledge.  Belief just prompts me to search more.  I don't want to accept that I have faith the answer is correct, I want to know the answer is correct.
> 
> *So can I get some characteristics please so I may atepmt to answer your OP?* (I know centerpin I asked another one of those dasterdly questions).


I have already stated we can take the God of the bible into account for the OP. Do you need me to give you some of His characteristics?


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I shaved somewhere other than my face once, just once, and will never do that again.



TMI!  TMI!


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## stringmusic (Jul 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I disagree 110%.  If the bible isn't true then what is discussed a few floors up is truely unimportant but what is discussed here is highly important.  *Then the discussion here is the actual search for truth*, and in the forum above is just utter nonsense.



What does the "truth" get you if the bible is false? What if the bible was false and God were not real and you knew EVERYTHING, what would that really mean for you?


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I have already stated we can take the God of the bible into account for the OP. Do you need me to give you some of His characteristics?



I f we use the god of the bible I cannot think of a way that a diety like it would provide evidence (other than presenting himself and willing the knowledge I seek to me) that would be strong and thorough enought to validate itself to me.  A miracle or two would do nothing but make me suspect the supernatural, magic, or that I am in desperate need of a phsyciatrist (which I may already be).  I would need validation, and explaination, or willed knowledge and submition.   

Then again if we found the cup of christ, or the ark, like they did in the Non-sucky Indiana Jones movies and they were validated to do the things they did in those movies I might be suseptible to a little faith, but I would still probably have my doubts.


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> TMI!  TMI!



  I was joking...........









Or was I?


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> What does the "truth" get you if the bible is false? What if the bible was false and God were not real and you knew EVERYTHING, what would that really mean for you?



Nothing really but self satisfaction I guess.  The ability to put things into perspective and say "This is real, this is not." and we all could move on a decide what to do next and what should be important to mankind.


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Since you agree with WTM45's statement, will you answer the questions I originally posted for him?



If there was such an entity that possessed the powers of your God or anyone else's god, and wanted "us"(worldwide) to believe, that god would already know what it would take to make a believer out of each individual person. However that way is would be enough"evidence" for that individual to know for sure that he/she was not hoaxed or ate a bad burrito.
If there was an overwhelming force that WANTED every living creature to KNOW him/it/her, EVERY living creature would know it. There would be no discrepancies, no arguing, no guesses, no excuses as to why it has not happened.


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## WTM45 (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Wouldn't you have to be God yourself to make that statement, or, at least have been personally told by God this is what He would do?



No.  And, No.

It simply seems obvious to me the "one" who has complete control of our existance through omnicient, omnipotent and omnipresent power could keep things simple, understandable and believable individually.  Since that is not how the majority of religious belief systems explain or sell it, I choose to reject them after much study and investigation.  It is not out of hand.

When this "one" can explain why my Mother has been through the challenges she has, and why I am still here but someone who was close to me is not I will be listening... just as I have been for all these years.  If it is a talking donkey, I'll check myself in to the closest mental institution without delay.


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## WTM45 (Jul 17, 2012)

bullethead said:


> If there was such an entity that possessed the powers of your God or anyone else's god, and wanted "us"(worldwide) to believe, that god would already know what it would take to make a believer out of each individual person. However that way is would be enough"evidence" for that individual to know for sure that he/she was not hoaxed or ate a bad burrito.
> If there was an overwhelming force that WANTED every living creature to KNOW him/it/her, EVERY living creature would know it. There would be no discrepancies, no arguing, no guesses, no excuses as to why it has not happened.



Excellent.

But to add, I don't tell others their "evidence" is not real for them.  It might not be for me, but I surely understand there are those out there who state they have seen a flying unicorn.  I just personally can not count myself as one who has.


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

And I say Amen, to both bullet and WTM45.


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## hummdaddy (Jul 17, 2012)

i have never had any god come down and appear in front of me or speak to me in my head...unless we were created by aliens ,i did see a space craft one time...didn't see any of them or them talk to me so i have no answers....either that or evolution for me and god is energy...

could be god is energy that created evolution that created aliens , that created us and this is suppose to be a never ending cycle through out the universe...just sayin


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## calebmatthews (Jul 17, 2012)

Well fellas let me just say this. The truth hurts and the truth is hated. Most people cant stand the truth, they just dont want to hear about it. Christianity and God the God of the Holy Bible is the most hated and attacked religion on this earth.


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## TheBishop (Jul 17, 2012)

The truth lends itself by its own exsistence.  The is no doubt in truth. What you have is belief not truth.


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2012)

calebmatthews said:


> Well fellas let me just say this. The truth hurts and the truth is hated. Most people cant stand the truth, they just dont want to hear about it. Christianity and God the God of the Holy Bible is the most hated and attacked religion on this earth.



I am giddy with excitement and waiting with anticipation as our new friend calebmatthews is going to once and for all provide the truth to us.

OR

Have I been duped into yet another assertive statement that makes claims and has absolutely nothing to back up those claims?


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## bigreddwon (Jul 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, but what's your definition of "pretty good evidence"?



Some old testament miracles would do for me.. They were good enough to bust out for the bronze age folks I'd settle for a few. Part lake Blachsheer, rain down some mana, bring my grandma back to life. I'd be thumpin bible in short order.


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## bigreddwon (Jul 17, 2012)

calebmatthews said:


> Well fellas let me just say this. The truth hurts and the truth is hated. Most people cant stand the truth, they just dont want to hear about it. Christianity and God the God of the Holy Bible is the most hated and attacked religion on this earth.



The truth is.. There is NO God, no Angels and NO evil Devil.. Also, no Santa, Leprechauns or Unicorns.. Im most upset about the Unicorns personally, They would make a beautiful mount.

The TRUTH is.. You've invested a large part of your life in a fairytale, not much unlike the folks from ancient Greece who thought sacrificing their virgin daughters to Apollo, Zeus and whoever else they were SURE was 'real' back then would give them power, or protection or good crops..

 But you KNOW now they aren't real gods, right? If you could go back in time what 'Truth' would you tell them? Their gods aren't real but_ yours_ is?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 17, 2012)

Let me say that I respect anyone's belief, whether Atheist or Christian. And I fell no need to try to convert anyone. When conversation arises about my beliefs, I would share them as if I were giving a good recipe to chili. You may be interested and you may all ready have your own figured out. So, that being said, I use you guys as a think tank while I am pondering over things. I thank you for your input. Many times, I'm thinking about stuff like how Christians do more harm than good while trying to force their views as the only reasonable answer. Although I do hold to certain beliefs that you guys are aware of, I don't think that anyone can change anothers mind that easy. I don't expect to ever have proof of my faith. So therefore, I don't expect anyone to believe it. Peace


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## drippin' rock (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Faith doesn't prove anything, I don't think it's meant too. You have a myriad of things to put faith in, and which things you choose is what defines a person.
> 
> Here is a question, why is it a problem that faith "gives you an out"? If it is true that it indeed does, does that make it unacceptable as a part of your worldview?



You asked in a previous post why faith would not be enough.   Faith is believing without evidence.  I don't have a problem with your faith or anyone else's.  We are trying to establish what would be acceptable PROOF of God.  For starters, God would be good proof of God!  

In the Old Testament, God practically slapped people up side the head to get them to listen.  Why is it nessessary for us in this day to have faith?  I could use a burning bush or two.  I know, I know, there are all sorts of cute stories out there about miracles in this day and age.  Money mysteriously showing up at the right moment, illnesses getting cured for someone who had just enough prayer and faith, etc.  Reminds me of the story I have heard in more than one sermon about the person on the roof during a flood waiting on a miracle.  God sends three different means of rescue but the person drowns because they thought they would be saved by God himself.  Cute, but pointless.  The moral of that story is you have to take matters into your own hands because if you wait on God you will drown.  Unless he sends a person along at the right time that knows the Heimlich maneuver and CPR.  Then at least you'll have a good "It's a miracle!" story.

And FWIW I do not consider myself smarter than anyone here( ok, maybe a few).  I just don't think Christianity is the only path.  I think it is just another narrative in the ever evolving struggle to understand our place in this universe.  Given enough time it will be replaced by something else.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 17, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> The TRUTH is.. You've invested a large part of your life in a fairytale ...



You're the one voting for Gary Johnson.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 17, 2012)

*will this make you believe?*

How about God saving your 11yr old little brother's life from a 90mph car crash with flips and smashing into a 100 year old pine tree after going airborne and the driver and best friend dying immediately. My brother had a broken wrist and a bruised lung..he was in the front passenger seat of an older Mercedes Benz. If you saw a picture of the car you would see a completely destroyed white chunk of metal with a completely in-tact front passenger area..that's where my brother was. I know that God has a plan for him something that I can't even think of but I know its big..things like that don't just happen..there's a reason. If one of the atheists reading this were to go through that experience in my position.. you would never even consider an atheistic belief. 
This car crash doesn't mean that God loves my brother more than Bryce and Bill Pope, it means that my brother it going to do something greater than I ever thought he would do and that he will serve God in some way that I don't know of. All I remember doing untill 2am that night is praying that everyone is safe and uninjured(my parents wouldn't let me go to the accident and wouldn't tell me anything  besides that my brother was at the hospital. God did His Will. I still don't understand why God left my brother and took Bryce.. Bryce was MUCH like 1000 times nicer than my brother..well when I think about it, Bryce is rewarded in Heaven, not punished with death. God has a reason for EVERYTHING that He does. Maybe you have to go through an experience like that to have so much faith.. i'm not sure but I know 100% that God saved my brother's life..NOT Mercedes


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> How about God saving your 11yr old little brother's life from a 90mph car crash with flips and smashing into a 100 year old pine tree after going airborne and the driver and best friend dying immediately. My brother had a broken wrist and a bruised lung..he was in the front passenger seat of an older Mercedes Benz. If you saw a picture of the car you would see a completely destroyed white chunk of metal with a completely in-tact front passenger area..that's where my brother was. I know that God has a plan for him something that I can't even think of but I know its big..things like that don't just happen..there's a reason. If one of the atheists reading this were to go through that experience in my position.. you would never even consider an atheistic belief.
> This car crash doesn't mean that God loves my brother more than Bryce and Bill Pope, it means that my brother it going to do something greater than I ever thought he would do and that he will serve God in some way that I don't know of. All I remember doing untill 2am that night is praying that everyone is safe and uninjured(my parents wouldn't let me go to the accident and wouldn't tell me anything  besides that my brother was at the hospital. God did His Will. I still don't understand why God left my brother and took Bryce.. Bryce was MUCH like 1000 times nicer than my brother..well when I think about it, Bryce is rewarded in Heaven, not punished with death. God has a reason for EVERYTHING that He does. Maybe you have to go through an experience like that to have so much faith.. i'm not sure but I know 100% that God saved my brother's life..NOT Mercedes



1st and most importantly,Sorry for the loss of your friends.

PLENTY of Atheists are still Atheists after having similar experiences. Now if you said they were doing 90mph and went flying through the trees and no one was injured and not even the car had so much as a smudge in the paint after shearing off a few trees and the path of carnage and destruction lead a path back onto the roadway and they continued driving as if nothing happened....you'd have our attention.
Zeus, Odin, Mithra, Buddha, Hades, The Sun, Nicolas Cage and Micky Mouse could all hold up to the credit your giving out.
Sheer Luck  and beating the odds is why your brother is still around. I am glad he is, and I mean that sincerely.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 17, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> How about God saving your 11yr old little brother's life from a 90mph car crash with flips and smashing into a 100 year old pine tree after going airborne and the driver and best friend dying immediately. My brother had a broken wrist and a bruised lung..he was in the front passenger seat of an older Mercedes Benz. If you saw a picture of the car you would see a completely destroyed white chunk of metal with a completely in-tact front passenger area..that's where my brother was. I know that God has a plan for him something that I can't even think of but I know its big..things like that don't just happen..there's a reason. If one of the atheists reading this were to go through that experience in my position.. you would never even consider an atheistic belief.
> This car crash doesn't mean that God loves my brother more than Bryce and Bill Pope, it means that my brother it going to do something greater than I ever thought he would do and that he will serve God in some way that I don't know of. All I remember doing untill 2am that night is praying that everyone is safe and uninjured(my parents wouldn't let me go to the accident and wouldn't tell me anything  besides that my brother was at the hospital. God did His Will. I still don't understand why God left my brother and took Bryce.. Bryce was MUCH like 1000 times nicer than my brother..well when I think about it, Bryce is rewarded in Heaven, not punished with death. God has a reason for EVERYTHING that He does. Maybe you have to go through an experience like that to have so much faith.. i'm not sure but I know 100% that God saved my brother's life..NOT Mercedes


Glad to hear the good news. But may I say this as a Christian rather than the Atheist. They are thinking from the mindset of the other guys family. I think it great that you have found peace with this situation. I just hope the same for the family members of the ones not so blessed. I say this in hopes that it won't be offensive, perceiving that they may essentially say the same thing but taken differently


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## bullethead (Jul 17, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Glad to hear the good news. But may I say this as a Christian rather than the Atheist. They are thinking from the mindset of the other guys family. I think it great that you have found peace with this situation. I just hope the same for the family members of the ones not so blessed. I say this in hopes that it won't be offensive, perceiving that they may essentially say the same thing but taken differently



It's a NO-LOSE situation.
God saved one but took the other(s) (not sure how many as 2 other names were mentioned) to a better place. He had a plan for each.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 17, 2012)

Thanks guys for the comfort and bullethead, it's just the question of "why him"? Why was it this person who died and this person who survived? I truely believe that there is a purpose for everything and if any of y'all knew my brother, you'd think wow this situation seems unfair..why did the good kid die and the not so good kid live? I know there's a reason for the whole thing more than just develouping character and maturing quicker(for me)..I just have no idea what the reason is and my desire to discover that reason is a huge faith strengthener for me.

And just so you know I wont take anything personal or negatively so you can be straight up with me about what you think.


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## bigreddwon (Jul 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You're the one voting for Gary Johnson.



That's not set in stone.. I could get weak and write in Ron Paul!


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## bigreddwon (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> How about God saving your 11yr old little brother's life from a 90mph car crash with flips and smashing into a 100 year old pine tree after going airborne and the driver and best friend dying immediately. My brother had a broken wrist and a bruised lung..he was in the front passenger seat of an older Mercedes Benz. If you saw a picture of the car you would see a completely destroyed white chunk of metal with a completely in-tact front passenger area..that's where my brother was. I know that God has a plan for him something that I can't even think of but I know its big..things like that don't just happen..there's a reason. If one of the atheists reading this were to go through that experience in my position.. you would never even consider an atheistic belief.
> This car crash doesn't mean that God loves my brother more than Bryce and Bill Pope, it means that my brother it going to do something greater than I ever thought he would do and that he will serve God in some way that I don't know of. All I remember doing untill 2am that night is praying that everyone is safe and uninjured(my parents wouldn't let me go to the accident and wouldn't tell me anything  besides that my brother was at the hospital. God did His Will. I still don't understand why God left my brother and took Bryce.. Bryce was MUCH like 1000 times nicer than my brother..well when I think about it, Bryce is rewarded in Heaven, not punished with death. God has a reason for EVERYTHING that He does. Maybe you have to go through an experience like that to have so much faith.. i'm not sure but I know 100% that God saved my brother's life..NOT Mercedes


It means nothing, your brother got lucky. There is no grand plan for him, the universe, god or the stars did not save him for some higher purpose. At all.


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## Four (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> How about God saving your 11yr old little brother's life from a 90mph car crash with flips and smashing into a 100 year old pine tree after going airborne and the driver and best friend dying immediately. My brother had a broken wrist and a bruised lung..he was in the front passenger seat of an older Mercedes Benz. If you saw a picture of the car you would see a completely destroyed white chunk of metal with a completely in-tact front passenger area..that's where my brother was. I know that God has a plan for him something that I can't even think of but I know its big..things like that don't just happen..there's a reason. If one of the atheists reading this were to go through that experience in my position.. you would never even consider an atheistic belief.
> This car crash doesn't mean that God loves my brother more than Bryce and Bill Pope, it means that my brother it going to do something greater than I ever thought he would do and that he will serve God in some way that I don't know of. All I remember doing untill 2am that night is praying that everyone is safe and uninjured(my parents wouldn't let me go to the accident and wouldn't tell me anything  besides that my brother was at the hospital. God did His Will. I still don't understand why God left my brother and took Bryce.. Bryce was MUCH like 1000 times nicer than my brother..well when I think about it, Bryce is rewarded in Heaven, not punished with death. God has a reason for EVERYTHING that He does. Maybe you have to go through an experience like that to have so much faith.. i'm not sure but I know 100% that God saved my brother's life..NOT Mercedes



wow, that's a pretty remarkable story (the supernatural aside) 

A few questions


In what situations do you treat like this? Do you always assume that god has something "big planned" for somebody if they get hurt real bad? Or is it anytime something out of the ordinary hapens?
What makes you so sure that you understand gods will so much that you can make all these assumptions? Is it just a feeling? Do you think God talks to you? Is it just a way your mind made up to make sense of a terible accident?
You admitidly said that god has a reason for everything that he does, and you said that it was his will (or his doing) that a person died that day and that the accident happend.. How do you reconcile this with things like child warrioris in africa, and polio, aids, children starving, natural disasters, etc?


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> Thanks guys for the comfort and bullethead, it's just the question of "why him"? Why was it this person who died and this person who survived? I truely believe that there is a purpose for everything and if any of y'all knew my brother, you'd think wow this situation seems unfair..why did the good kid die and the not so good kid live? I know there's a reason for the whole thing more than just develouping character and maturing quicker(for me)..I just have no idea what the reason is and my desire to discover that reason is a huge faith strengthener for me.
> 
> And just so you know I wont take anything personal or negatively so you can be straight up with me about what you think.



Did then "God" set your brother and friend up?

Did god "make" your 11yr old brother get into a vehicle with (I assume) an older boy/man and "make" the driver speed recklessly at 90mph just so God's plan works out? 
Is God so choosy as to reward one young man and family while punishing another young man and family instead of just snapping his fingers and saying "11yr old boy...in the future you are now going to cure cancer". Why would God kill the driver to get his plan to work?
And you don't speak too highly of your then 11yr old brother. Just how "bad" was/is he? Has this incident wised him up at all?


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## WTM45 (Jul 18, 2012)

If the survival of a loved one can build one's faith, then they must be prepared for what the loss of a loved one can do.


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## JB0704 (Jul 18, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> That's not set in stone.. I could get weak and write in Ron Paul!



Either choice is better than having to look at yourself in the mirror after voting for Romney........


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## JB0704 (Jul 18, 2012)

WTM45 said:


> If the survival of a loved one can build one's faith, then they must be prepared for what the loss of a loved one can do.



It's interesting how this stuff works.  Look up the history of the old hymn "It is Well (with my soul)."  Tragedy can break people or build them up.

Personally, I don't ever want to learn how I would handle such a thing.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Did then "God" set your brother and friend up?
> 
> Did god "make" your 11yr old brother get into a vehicle with (I assume) an older boy/man and "make" the driver speed recklessly at 90mph just so God's plan works out?
> Is God so choosy as to reward one young man and family while punishing another young man and family instead of just snapping his fingers and saying "11yr old boy...in the future you are now going to cure cancer". Why would God kill the driver to get his plan to work?
> And you don't speak too highly of your then 11yr old brother. Just how "bad" was/is he? Has this incident wised him up at all?



I know some get tired of hearing me say it, but I can't say it any other way. Either the God of the Bible orchestrated this entire event, or there is no God.


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## WTM45 (Jul 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I know some get tired of hearing me say it, but I can't say it any other way. Either the God of the Bible orchestrated this entire event, or there is no God of the Bible.



Fixed it for you.

All other possibilities can not be ruled out simply if one possibility has been ruled out.
It very well could be a deity/superpower/intelligent designer has orchestrated life on this planet, and is completely cold and non-caring towards some while others flourish.  It is quite hard to find any evidence of that which is universally acceptable without "faith" or speculation.

I place "faith" in quotes because I have found the word to most commonly represent a blind belief, not a true trust.


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## vowell462 (Jul 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, so give me an example of "something".  I'm not twisting anything.  I'm just asking what I thought was simple question.  Both bullethead and Mr. Ham gave specific items they would accept.  What's yours?



Nothing specific. Again, ANY evidence that provides proof. Since you insist on an example from me, i want to see an amputee lose his arm, then pray for another one that is just like it ( non prosthetic and no doctor or science involved whatsoever) and be granted by god to have a new arm appear. Like it never happened.

Talking snakes, donkeys, animals.....that will do to.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 18, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> Nothing specific. Again, ANY evidence that provides proof. Since you insist on an example from me, i want to see an amputee lose his arm, then pray for another one that is just like it ( non prosthetic and no doctor or science involved whatsoever) and be granted by god to have a new arm appear. Like it never happened.
> 
> Talking snakes, donkeys, animals.....that will do to.



OK.

The recurring theme seems to be limb regeneration, personal appearances, and talking animals.


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## drippin' rock (Jul 18, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> OK.
> 
> The recurring theme seems to be limb regeneration, personal appearances, and talking animals.



I'd prefer a universal appearance. Everybody gets the same info and sees the same thing.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 18, 2012)

Four said:


> wow, that's a pretty remarkable story (the supernatural aside)
> 
> A few questions
> 
> ...



1. I believe that God does everything for a purpose and that everything that happens has a meaning. Not just major incedents, but it isn't just luck that I made it back safely from homedepot today. I wasn't expecting to get in a crash but neither does anyone else.

2 and 3. I know that God's Will is always what happens and I also know that God gives us free will, which when used wrongly, can result in the horrible things that you listed. God does not cause sin. He gives us free will to be used properly, not foolishly. People tend to use free will foolishly, i'm not suggesting that we are all supposed to be sinless because WE can't do that, we need to control our mistakes and minimize them so that they don't escalate unexpectedly and uncontrolably into one of the things you listed. We cause these horrible things by the foolish use of our free will is an easier way to say it I guess


 Bullethead: it was the driver's choice to drive recklessly and my brother's decision to get in the car. Its all part of free will, and my brother was and still is selfish and always thinks he's right, suprisingly unthankful and complaining attitude.. he's getting better and slowly realizing that God doesn't hate him and that God did not kill his friend. He's beggining to be thankful that he is alive. I know we all have a little bit of something we get impatient and victimize ourselves sometimes. Someday he'll look back on it and truly realize how blessed he is but the accident caused some immaturity so it'll just take time


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## Four (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> 2 and 3. I know that God's Will is always what happens and I also know that God gives us free will, which when used wrongly, can result in the horrible things that you listed. God does not cause sin. He gives us free will to be used properly, not foolishly. People tend to use free will foolishly, i'm not suggesting that we are all supposed to be sinless because WE can't do that, we need to control our mistakes and minimize them so that they don't escalate unexpectedly and uncontrolably into one of the things you listed. We cause these horrible things by the foolish use of our free will is an easier way to say it I guess



I am a little confused, perhaps you can clarify. 

At first it seems to me that you're basically saying that god controls everything (you said "gods will is always what happens") Which i get, it's kind of a theistic determinism.

But then, you then said god gives us free will, and that negative things happen due to free will... I don't understand how everything can be gods will, but we can have free will.

If we assume that it's sometimes gods will and sometimes our will, how do we differentiate? I assume you would support a position in which all bad things are credited to free will.. but are all good things credited to gods will?

Thanks


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## atlashunter (Jul 18, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You can section up most of the worlds religions into three seperate catagories, Only the universe exists(naturalist, atheist), only God exists(hinduism,buddhism, any pantheist religions) and both God and the universe exist(Christianity,Judaism, Islam)
> 
> I put my faith in the last catagory because of the evidence I have found and accepted for Jesus Christ. So, that leaves me with the answer of there is no evidence available for me to believe in anything but the God of the bible. The exclusivity of Christ i.e. "No one comes unto the Father except through me",  let's me know there is not enough evidence for any other gods.
> 
> ...



Reaffirming why you believe what you currently do doesn't answer my question. Other people have throughout history believed in different gods from yours. Suppose they were right and you were wrong. What evidence would it take to convince you that their gods were real? Again, the question is not why do you believe in the god that you do but what evidence would it take for you to believe in some other god which you presently dismiss as myth?


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## atlashunter (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> 1. I believe that God does everything for a purpose and that everything that happens has a meaning. Not just major incedents, but it isn't just luck that I made it back safely from homedepot today. I wasn't expecting to get in a crash but neither does anyone else.
> 
> 2 and 3. I know that God's Will is always what happens and I also know that God gives us free will, which when used wrongly, can result in the horrible things that you listed. God does not cause sin. He gives us free will to be used properly, not foolishly. People tend to use free will foolishly, i'm not suggesting that we are all supposed to be sinless because WE can't do that, we need to control our mistakes and minimize them so that they don't escalate unexpectedly and uncontrolably into one of the things you listed. We cause these horrible things by the foolish use of our free will is an easier way to say it I guess
> 
> ...



God's will?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> God's will?



Yes

"And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 18, 2012)

Four said:


> I am a little confused, perhaps you can clarify.
> 
> At first it seems to me that you're basically saying that god controls everything (you said "gods will is always what happens") Which i get, it's kind of a theistic determinism.
> 
> ...




I understand the confusion I believe that it is God's will to give us free will. I sometimes think "God what have I done to deserve this" but I have not only done plenty to deserve bad things, but God gives us the responsibility of say taking care of others and..well God wants us to be responisible I think. God is the perfect Father, He teaches discipline and punishes those who are undisciplined and warns us the punishments and will never allow anyone to be tempted beyond what we can bear .  We just seem to think that we can't bear the temptation alot of the time


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 18, 2012)

Atlashunter, if you don't mind me asking, were you ever involved with politics or ever ran for president or something? Your posts have alot of big words in them and even though I don't agree with almost everything you say, they seem very educated..one of the biggest words I know is ballistic coeficent hahaha


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## ambush80 (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I understand the confusion I believe that it is God's will to give us free will. I sometimes think "God what have I done to deserve this" but I have not only done plenty to deserve bad things, but God gives us the responsibility of say taking care of others and..well God wants us to be responisible I think. God is the perfect Father, He teaches discipline and punishes those who are undisciplined and warns us the punishments and will never allow anyone to be tempted beyond what we can bear .  We just seem to think that we can't bear the temptation alot of the time



Are you a father?  What could your child possibly do in one lifetime that you would send them to He11 for?


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I understand the confusion I believe that it is God's will to give us free will. I sometimes think "God what have I done to deserve this" but I have not only done plenty to deserve bad things, but God gives us the responsibility of say taking care of others and..well God wants us to be responisible I think. God is the perfect Father, He teaches discipline and punishes those who are undisciplined and warns us the punishments and will never allow anyone to be tempted beyond what we can bear .  We just seem to think that we can't bear the temptation alot of the time



Why would God punish anyone for being undisciplined and exercising their free will?
Very contradictory if we are given free will and then punished for using it.


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> Bullethead: it was the driver's choice to drive recklessly and my brother's decision to get in the car. Its all part of free will, and my brother was and still is selfish and always thinks he's right, suprisingly unthankful and complaining attitude.. he's getting better and slowly realizing that God doesn't hate him and that God did not kill his friend. He's beggining to be thankful that he is alive. I know we all have a little bit of something we get impatient and victimize ourselves sometimes. Someday he'll look back on it and truly realize how blessed he is but the accident caused some immaturity so it'll just take time



Did all this take place recently? How old was the driver? Was the driver one of your buddies? You almost make it sound like the accident was meant to happen to teach your brother a lesson. It didn't. But you still hope it will. 
There is no wrong answer and you have all the bases covered for God's involvement because if it takes your brother until he is 60 to wise up....the prophesy comes true, and if he never wises up and does something foolish at the age of 16 that costs him dearly....well it was God's will.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 18, 2012)

Alright maybe I was wrong about that part. I see what you're saying there i'm not sure how to respond to it actually. And ambush no i'm not a father but if someone completely doesn't acknowledge you and speaks of you being false and fake when your right there like "hey! Look i'm right here how do you not notice me?", well that would probably make me angry at the person I don't know about you. God gives alot of people a chance to believe in Him or sends someone to witness for Him. As for those who never hear of God, i'm not sure what happens to them. I have heard that they go to Heaven along with infants or babies that die. I'm not sure if that is actually in The Bible or not though..

I don't have a degree in Christianity i'm just going off of what I have learned in school and church or read


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 18, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Did all this take place recently? How old was the driver? Was the driver one of your buddies? You almost make it sound like the accident was meant to happen to teach your brother a lesson. It didn't. But you still hope it will.
> There is no wrong answer and you have all the bases covered for God's involvement because if it takes your brother until he is 60 to wise up....the prophesy comes true, and if he never wises up and does something foolish at the age of 16 that costs him dearly....well it was God's will.



This happened March 27, 2010. The driver was the dad of the child who was killed I think he was around 45 years old and I was very good friends with him and the child. Yes I do think it will teach my brother a lesson it will just take time.. but now that I think about it, my brother and the daughter in the other family involved both seem kind of selfish at times but that is only recently for the daughter. My brother has always been like that he's just a little immature. But I do remember during the funeral, over 20 people were saved and I can hardly remember anything that our pastor said honestly and sadly. And I have done things that I regret, that could have been terrible but it was my choice so it would be my fault. God knows that bad things will happen because we use our free will irresponsively, but it can teach others lessons and prevent such events from occuring again


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

So much of what ross is saying points to no god at all.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> So much of what ross is saying points to no god at all.


Perhaps, but I think we all appreciate him sharing his thoughts with us. My teenage nephew was a passenger in a newly acquired  jacked up 4x4. The driver attempted to take a 90 degree turn at high speed. The end result was a huge pine tree. The driver and his brother survived, while my nephew broke his neck and strangled in his own blood. This happened but just a few years ago. The driver was 20 or 21 yrs old. None of these boys made their 30th birthday. Later on, the driver hung himself with a garden hose. His brother recently shot himself in the head.

I read a study recently that showed the majority of deaths in our country are sudden deaths, without warning. Death is definitely one thing we all have in common.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Are you a father?  What could your child possibly do in one lifetime that you would send them to He11 for?



If your child decided to run away from home, and by default not in your presence ever again, not being in your presence is what he11 is. Does that answer your question?


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Reaffirming why you believe what you currently do doesn't answer my question. Other people have throughout history believed in different gods from yours. Suppose they were right and you were wrong. What evidence would it take to convince you that their gods were real? Again, the question is not why do you believe in the god that you do but what evidence would it take for you to believe in some other god which you presently dismiss as myth?





stringmusic said:


> I put my faith in the last catagory because of the evidence I have found and accepted for Jesus Christ. *So, that leaves me with the answer of there is no evidence available for me to believe in anything but the God of the bible. The exclusivity of Christ i.e. "No one comes unto the Father except through me",  let's me know there is not enough evidence for any other gods.*


By default, who I put my faith in, leaves me with an answer of "nothing".



> What is your answer to the OP?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> If your child decided to run away from home, and by default not in your presence ever again, not being in your presence is what he11 is. Does that answer your question?



Not if I am omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. Not if I love my child.


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> If your child decided to run away from home, and by default not in your presence ever again, not being in your presence is what he11 is. Does that answer your question?



Is that your personal definition/interpretation of h3ll? If not where did you get it from?


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Is that your personal definition/interpretation of h3ll? If not where did you get it from?



That is a modern interpretation of it.  "Death" is defined, within many Christian circles, as seperation from God.  I have heard what Stringmusic said defined he11 many times in church.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Is that your personal definition/interpretation of h3ll? If not where did you get it from?





JB0704 said:


> That is a modern interpretation of it.  "Death" is defined, within many Christian circles, as seperation from God.  I have heard what Stringmusic said defined he11 many times in church.



Well, I'm am actually rethinking my postition now. As Gem pointed out, I am running into the problem of God being omnipresent. Although, God may choose a place to not let His Holy Spirit dwell, I don't think he is bound to being omnipresent.

So to answer your question Bullet, it was my personal definition, and I'm not quite sure I have it correct. I need to do a little studying on the subject.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> So to answer your question Bullet, it was my personal definition, and I'm not quite sure I have it correct. I need to do a little studying on the subject.



Nor was I disagreeing in regards to your thoughts on he11. I would agree with the influence of grace and spirit being withdrawn from such a place.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> By default, who I put my faith in, leaves me with an answer of "nothing".



So there is no amount of evidence that could persuade you that your beliefs are wrong?


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> That is a modern interpretation of it.  "Death" is defined, within many Christian circles, as seperation from God.  I have heard what Stringmusic said defined he11 many times in church.



So have I. It's an attempt to play down the whole lake of fire bit, a kindler, gentler, version of the bad place to absolve god for any responsibility of its creation. If you disobey and walk out of my house into the rain that I had nothing to do with then I'm not to blame. If on the other hand I choose to put you in the torture chamber that I built, well that is a different matter isn't it?


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> So there is no amount of evidence that could persuade you that your beliefs are wrong?



No.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> No.



So if you're beliefs aren't true it would be your preference to continue believing a lie than to conform your mind to reality?  I can't relate to such a person. I would much rather admit that I was wrong if it is shown that I am. Seems to me you're no different than someone who believes in some other god that could die and stand in judgment of the god you believe in and still insist they were right all along. Why are you so hesitant to admit the possibility that you could be wrong?


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> So if you're beliefs aren't true it would be your preference to continue believing a lie than to conform your mind to reality?  I can't relate to such a person. I would much rather admit that I was wrong if it is shown that I am. Seems to me you're no different than someone who believes in some other god that could die and stand in judgment of the god you believe in and still insist they were right all along. Why are you so hesitant to admit the possibility that you could be wrong?



There is a chance I could be wrong, and I still doubt sometimes just like every human does. I will say that the doubt is very small, and doesn't come into play very often.

However, I do not take my belief in God or relationship with Christ as something that could be proven untrue. To me, it is like asking the question of "what evidence would it take for you to believe you're not real?" I believe I'm real just as I believe the God of the bible is real and that I have a relationship with His Son.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> There is a chance I could be wrong, and I still doubt sometimes just like every human does. I will say that the doubt is very small, and doesn't come into play very often.
> 
> However, I do not take my belief in God or relationship with Christ as something that could be proven untrue. To me, it is like asking the question of "what evidence would it take for you to believe you're not real?" I believe I'm real just as I believe the God of the bible is real and that I have a relationship with His Son.



To say there is no amount of evidence that could convince you that you are wrong is quite a statement. I think one must ask themselves what would motivate a person to say such a thing, especially about a belief rooted in an ancient text that contradicts so much of what we know to be true based on physical evidence.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> To say there is no amount of evidence that could convince you that you are wrong is quite a statement. I think one must ask themselves what would motivate a person to say such a thing, especially about a belief rooted in an ancient text that contradicts so much of what we know to be true based on physical evidence.



You asked me the question, and I gave you my best answer, and now your starting to attack the bible. I guess this thread will end up going all over the place like they usually do and thats fine, but what the bible is or isn't was not the purpose of the OP.

The purpose was to find out what exactly is the evidence you guys scream that you want all the time, and so far, it's miracles, but I'm unclear of your answer because you haven't given on yet, and I'm getting full on this popcorn.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> To say there is no amount of evidence that could convince you that you are wrong is quite a statement. I think one must ask themselves what would motivate a person to say such a thing, especially about a belief rooted in an ancient text that contradicts so much of what we know to be true based on physical evidence.



Atlas, the fundamental problem with these types of questions is that there is absolutely no way to "dis-prove" the existence of God.  So, for those of us who believe, it is difficult to comprehend how such a belief might change.

I'm with string, I admit I could be wrong, and I also admit that I will most likely never stop believing.  For me at least, believing in the existence of God (not Jesus) has less to do with the Bible, and more to do with existence.  Believing in Jesus has much more to do with the Bible.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You asked me the question, and I gave you my best answer, and now your starting to attack the bible. I guess this thread will end up going all over the place like they usually do and thats fine, but what the bible is or isn't was not the purpose of the OP.
> 
> The purpose was to find out what exactly is the evidence you guys scream that you want all the time, and so far, it's miracles, but I'm unclear of your answer because you haven't given on yet, and I'm getting full on this popcorn.



I just find it interesting that you pose a question to others that is dependent on their accepting the possibility they are wrong in their beliefs when you yourself refuse to acknowledge that possibility. I know you finally did admit that you could be wrong but you still say there is no amount of evidence that could convince you of it. Surely you see the irony.

I asked the original question based on an expectation that you were just as willing to admit fallibility as you expect others to be. That is to say, the same kind of evidence that could convince you, a person who rationally rejects other gods on lack of evidence, is what you could expect to convince me of your god which I reject on the same lack of evidence.

Try having an open mind and ask yourself what it would take for you to come to believe in Poseidon. No doubt Poseidon could convince you he was real if he really in fact was.

This isn't the first time we've had this question asked in this forum. It is asked as if to suggest that those who don't believe are not being reasonable in their acceptance of evidence. Suffice to say that I could easily prove my existence to you with a simple meeting and I'm just a mere mortal. I am confident that if I were an omnipotent god and wanted to prove my existence to humanity so as to leave no room for doubt I could do a far better job of it than your god has.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Atlas, the fundamental problem with these types of questions is that there is absolutely no way to "dis-prove" the existence of God.  So, for those of us who believe, it is difficult to comprehend how such a belief might change.
> 
> I'm with string, I admit I could be wrong, and I also admit that I will most likely never stop believing.  For me at least, believing in the existence of God (not Jesus) has less to do with the Bible, and more to do with existence.  Believing in Jesus has much more to do with the Bible.



There is no difference in disproving Yahweh as there is in disproving Zeus. Are you saying that there is no amount of evidence that could persuade people that their pagan gods are myth and yours is real? If there is, then that same evidence could work in the opposite direction.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> There is no difference in disproving Yahweh as there is in disproving Zeus. Are you saying that there is no amount of evidence that could persuade people that their pagan gods are myth and yours is real? If there is, then that same evidence could work in the opposite direction.



People throughout history have had different ideas of what the higher power was.  Take an Indian sun worshipper.....he is acknowledging a higher power.  Does the fact that he does not call that power Yahweh mean he is not worshipping God?  I don't think so.  It just means he was never given, or never believed, the complete picture of the nature of God that I do.  Remember, if God exists, he is EVERYBODY's God, regardless of whether they want or know him.

This is not a universalist approach, it is a logical approach.   The concept is the constant, not the practice.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> People throughout history have had different ideas of what the higher power was.  Take an Indian sun worshipper.....he is acknowledging a higher power.  Does the fact that he does not call that power Yahweh mean he is not worshipping God?  I don't think so.  It just means he was never given, or never believed, the complete picture of the nature of God that I do.  Remember, if God exists, he is EVERYBODY's God, regardless of whether they want or know him.
> 
> This is not a universalist approach, it is a logical approach.   The concept is the constant, not the practice.



That may be a common theme but the beliefs aren't restricted to simply "a higher power". The claims about this higher power are very specific and detailed. Imagine that this is all myth and it turns out there is a higher power that had absolutely nothing to do with your religion, were you really believing in that higher power all along? Or imagine you die and find yourself standing before a pantheon of deities operating with a very different rule book from what you have been following. No doubt that experience would convince you that you got it wrong, and me too!


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> So there is no amount of evidence that could persuade you that your beliefs are wrong?



That is a fair enough question. If that which sustains my belief, ceased to sustain it, I would not believe.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Or imagine you die and find yourself standing before a pantheon of deities operating with a very different rule book from what you have been following. No doubt that experience would convince you that you got it wrong, and me too!



Absolutely!  It would be a very confusing moment.  But, that is relevant to specific characteristics of the higher power acknowledged.

My point was that man has believed in God as long as there has been man.  Over the millenia, people have put different twists and faces on that belief.  If God exists, what we believe about him is irrelevant to his characteristics, they will remain constant....we can't change God by calling him something else, or assigning different qualities.

I think what you are getting at is that we may one day discover that our individual belief systems are wrong....and the ancient Greeks may be right when discussing worship practices and Godly preferences in names.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> That is a fair enough question. If that which sustains my belief, ceased to sustain it, I would not believe.





....but, since you decided to go there, do you and I believe in different Gods because we assign very different characteristics to his nature?


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Absolutely!  It would be a very confusing moment.  But, that is relevant to specific characteristics of the higher power acknowledged.
> 
> My point was that man has believed in God as long as there has been man.  Over the millenia, people have put different twists and faces on that belief.  If God exists, what we believe about him is irrelevant to his characteristics, they will remain constant....we can't change God by calling him something else, or assigning different qualities.
> 
> I think what you are getting at is that we may one day discover that our individual belief systems are wrong....and the ancient Greeks may be right when discussing worship practices and Godly preferences in names.



Sure, but to hear others tell it those differences in detail are matters of eternal importance. I've never heard any preacher suggest that an egyptian worshiper of Ra believed in the same higher power that they do but with different details. Every preacher I've heard would say the egyptian was RONG and eternally doomed to torment for it. It would be nice I suppose if people just restricted their claims to some nebulous "higher power" and left it at that. There would sure be a lot less blood shed.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Sure, but to hear others tell it those differences in detail are matters of eternal importance.



And those are the differences in our beliefs about the characteristics of God.....some believe he is described in the Bible (me), and others believe he is described in nature.  Neither beleif system has any bearing on the facts, the facts will remain what they are whether we discover them or not.

I just believe the Christian view of God.



atlashunter said:


> I've never heard any preacher suggest that an egyptian worshiper of Ra believed in the same higher power that they do but with different details.



Seems logical to me.  I had a debate the other day with some folks who said muslims and Christians believe in different Gods.......and I asked them if there was more than one God.  We both believe in "god" as a concept, just disagree on the details, and often we believe those differences will have eternal consequences.



atlashunter said:


> Every preacher I've heard would say the egyptian was RONG and eternally doomed to torment for it. It would be nice I suppose if people just restricted their claims to some nebulous "higher power" and left it at that. There would sure be a lot less blood shed.



I believe my job, as a Christian, is to tell folks why I believe in Jesus, and why I think he is the "way, truth, and life."  Condemnation is not mine.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> And those are the differences in our beliefs about the characteristics of God.....some believe he is described in the Bible (me), and others believe he is described in nature.  Neither beleif system has any bearing on the facts, the facts will remain what they are whether we discover them or not.



I agree.




JB0704 said:


> I believe my job, as a Christian, is to tell folks why I believe in Jesus, and why I think he is the "way, truth, and life."  Condemnation is not mine.



You don't have to, the bible does it for you. Some folks are more eager to relay that message than others. Those Westboro Baptists... very eager.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Those Westboro Baptists... very eager.



....and they do not share my belief system.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ....and they do not share my belief system.



Glad to hear it. But they do believe in the same higher power you do and know their bible. They're just a bit happier to serve up the doodoo sandwich to folks without the icing.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I just find it interesting that you pose a question to others that is dependent on their accepting the possibility they are wrong in their beliefs when you yourself refuse to acknowledge that possibility. I know you finally did admit that you could be wrong but you still say there is no amount of evidence that could convince you of it. Surely you see the irony.


The beliefs stated in the OP are in where the non believer has none. If one already believes in God, this question was obviously not for them. Point being one cannot be wrong in _which god _,if there is not belief in God to start with.



> This isn't the first time we've had this question asked in this forum. It is asked as if to suggest that those who don't believe are not being reasonable in their acceptance of evidence. Suffice to say that I could easily prove my existence to you with a simple meeting and I'm just a mere mortal. I am confident that if I were an omnipotent god and wanted to prove my existence to humanity so as to leave no room for doubt I could do a far better job of it than your god has.


I have been around this forum for 2 or 3 years and have never seen it asked, not to say it hasn't been, it's just been a while.

And this thread was not started to suggest that those who don't believe are not being reasonable, it was started to find out exactly what evidence people wanted to see from God, thats it. I simply did not know what that evidence was and now I know, miracles, at least on this forum.

And my best guess for your answer, judging by your last couple of sentences, is seeing God Himself, though I'm sure you know the OP was prefaced in saying that was not part of the evidence I was wanting to know about, because it is obvious. 

So, are you ever going to answer the question?


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> The beliefs stated in the OP are in where the non believer has none. If one already believes in God, this question was obviously not for them. Point being one cannot be wrong in _which god _,if there is not belief in God to start with.



Which god goes hand in hand with a belief in any god at all. Because you already have plenty of gods which you don't believe in I'm trying to help you understand the viewpoint of those who don't believe in yours. You and I are equally atheistic on every god except for one. Answer your own question with respect to those gods which you currently believe are myths and you'll have your answer.




stringmusic said:


> And my best guess for your answer, judging by your last couple of sentences, is seeing God Himself, though I'm sure you know the OP was prefaced in saying that was not part of the evidence I was wanting to know about, because it is obvious.
> 
> So, are you ever going to answer the question?



I believe I already have. There are any number of scenarios I could imagine that would demonstrate some god was real.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

String if you have trouble considering what kind of evidence it would take for you to believe in other gods then simply replace those gods with some other mythical figure like fairies or leprechauns.

I'll also take this a step further and suggest that you are making a special exception for the belief in your god. If you applied the same standards of evidence you would either believe in all gods or none at all.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ....but, since you decided to go there, do you and I believe in different Gods because we assign very different characteristics to his nature?


We have discussed our differences enough to know that both of us can not possibly be right.


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## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> We have discussed our differences enough to know that both of us can not possibly be right.



One of us is wrong, yes.  But I don't believe it is different Gods we are discussing.

Is that heresy?


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Which god goes hand in hand with a belief in any god at all. Because you already have plenty of gods which you don't believe in I'm trying to help you understand the viewpoint of those who don't believe in yours. You and I are equally atheistic on every god except for one. *Answer your own question with respect to those gods which you currently believe are myths and you'll have your answer*.


No other god has come to this earth to save me. That is my answer to my question.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'll also take this a step further and suggest that you are making a special exception for the belief in your god. If you applied the same standards of evidence you would either believe in all gods or none at all.


Not true. see below.



stringmusic said:


> No other god has come to this earth to save me. That is my answer to my question.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> So much of what ross is saying points to no god at all.



I have said kind of not completely right things i guess. ya maybe I should put more thoughts into my responses


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'll also take this a step further and suggest that you are making a special exception for the belief in your god. If you applied the same standards of evidence you would either believe in all gods or none at all.



That right there is one of the most accurate statements ever written on here.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> That right there is one of the most accurate statements ever written on here.



It's not even close to being an accurate statement. Not all gods are the same.

I apply the same standards of evidence into every religion I have looked at, Christianity wins every time.


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> It's not even close to being an accurate statement. Not all gods are the same.
> 
> I apply the same standards of evidence into every religion I have looked at, Christianity wins every time.



Tell us a story that has not been told before...


Osiris as Creator

On a stela dating from the 18th Dynasty (1570-1070 bce) appears a hymn to Osiris that, per Christian Egyptologist Budge's translation, reads in part:

    Thou hast made this earth by thy hand, and the waters thereof, and the wind thereof, the herb thereof, all the cattle thereof, all the winged fowl thereof, all the fish thereof, all the creeping things thereof, and all the four-footed beasts thereof.

The similarities between this passage as translated and the biblical creation account written centuries later are striking. In Genesis (1:24), "God" creates the earth and says:

    Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds; cattle and creeping things and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.

The Carpentras Inscription in Phoenician, which says, in part: 'Blessed be Ta-Bai, daughter of Ta-Hapi, Priest of Osiris Eloh... Justified before Osiris...'

It is clear that Osiris was the Most High God of Creation, equivalent to Yahweh. Indeed, a Phoenician inscription invokes "Osiris Eloh," Eloh being "the name used by the Ten Tribes of Israel for the Elohim of Two Tribes." The Hebrew "Elohim," a plural term, is used over 2600 times in the Hebrew Old Testament, translated most often as "God" in the singular.

It is not surprising that Genesis and other biblical texts, concepts and stories are largely Egyptian in origin, especially since Israel and Egypt are in such proximity. The historical, literary and archaeological evidence of the influence of Egypt on the Levant is abundant and includes the presence of Osiris in Israel. In an article in the Biblical Archaeology Review (5-6/00) entitled, "What's an Egyptian Temple Doing in Jerusalem?" Gabriel Barkay states:

    The name of Osiris appears on an inscribed stele fragment of reddish Nubia sandstone discovered at Hazor in northern Israel and on stelae found at Deir el-Balah, in the Gaza Strip. It seems that this Egyptian deity was especially popular in Canaan, when it was under Egyptian domination.

Artifacts and historical records prove Egyptian presence and influence in the Levant, prior to the rise of the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish people, and it is apparent that the Canaanite and Israelite peoples were infused with the Osiris myth, which thus affected their own religions, including the Judaic offshoot, Christianity. Like Jesus, Osiris was once believed to have incarnated as a human savior who died and was resurrected for the good of mankind:

*Osiris has a human development. He is God in heaven and h3ll, but once appeared as man on earth.

    He is one of the Saviours or Deliverers of Humanity, to be found in almost all lands. As such, he is born into the world. He came, as a benefactor, to relieve man of trouble, to supply his wants. In his efforts to do good, he encounters evil. He is killed. Osiris is buried. His tomb was the object of pilgrimage for thousands of years. But he did not rest in his grave. At the end of three days, or forty, he rose again, and ascended of heaven.*


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> It's not even close to being an accurate statement. Not all gods are the same.



There is only one (my belief).  He is the same God.  Regardless of what we say about him.

I don't want anybody to get the opinion that I am taking a universalist approach.  I am only stating the logical counter to the "how do you know your God is the God" question.  Because if he exists, then he must be everybody's God.  We can have it all wrong, but that doesn't change him.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> No other god has come to this earth to save me. That is my answer to my question.



You're just restating your current view. It would be no different from me saying my answer to your question is that no god has ever been demonstrated to exist.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Not true. see below.



Just an assertion without any evidential basis. Once again you are just reasserting your view and putting it forward as if it is evidence. When we actually look at the claims put forward and the basis for those claims there is no more reason to believe christianity is true than any other now defunct and forgotten religion.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> No other god has come to this earth to save me. That is my answer to my question.



You have not done nearly the research that you claim to have done.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I have said kind of not completely right things i guess. ya maybe I should put more thoughts into my responses



I was referring specifically to what you said about people having free will and being responsible for each other. Isn't that exactly the kind of world we should expect to have absent any god?

You told a story of a car wreck. I have one of my own. About 11 years ago lost a cousin who was then about 23 years old. She had 7 year old identical twin girls, one of which was also killed. There was another woman in the car with her with an infant. The infant survived, the mother was killed. And a couple guys who also survived. I see no reason in that tragedy, no higher purpose, no meaning. I simply see a world that has no hand guiding it other than the laws of nature.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I have said kind of not completely right things i guess. ya maybe I should put more thoughts into my responses



I appreciate your thoughts and contribution to the topic. You have made me ponder things that I have not given much thought to for some time.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Tell us a story that has not been told before...
> 
> 
> Osiris as Creator
> ...



Can you post the link to this cut and paste?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> One of us is wrong, yes.  But I don't believe it is different Gods we are discussing.
> 
> Is that heresy?


No. It is confusion on your part.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> There is only one (my belief).  He is the same God.  Regardless of what we say about him.
> 
> I don't want anybody to get the opinion that I am taking a universalist approach.  I am only stating the logical counter to the "how do you know your God is the God" question.  Because if he exists, then he must be everybody's God.  We can have it all wrong, but that doesn't change him.



And I would agree with you, at least for the most part. I do believe in false "gods".


----------



## bullethead (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Can you post the link to this cut and paste?



http://www.truthbeknown.com/osiris.htm

but wait ...there's more! You not only get one savior of man story that pre-dates Jesus but if you click now I'll show you TWO! Just pay separate S&H.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/origen046.html

And/Or you can research either one of those GODS on your own, on whatever sites you feel comfortable using.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You're just restating your current view. It would be no different from me saying my answer to your question is that no god has ever been demonstrated to exist.


Your right, it would be no different. I started this thread to ask the question what demonstration or evidence you want.


atlashunter said:


> Just an assertion without any evidential basis. Once again you are just reasserting your view and putting it forward as if it is evidence. When we actually look at the claims put forward and the basis for those claims there is no more reason to believe christianity is true than any other now defunct and forgotten religion.


That statement has evidence and you know it. I know you have read things that are evidence for Christ, you just don't think it's enough to believe it's true.

YOU don't think there is any more reason to believe Christianity given the evidence, I do, and so do 100's of millions of other people.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> That statement has evidence and you know it. I know you have read things that are evidence for Christ, you just don't think it's enough to believe it's true.



I said no more than other religions. Yes we have stories. Those abound in the ancient world.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2012)

bullethead said:


> http://www.truthbeknown.com/osiris.htm
> 
> but wait ...there's more! You not only get one savior of man story that pre-dates Jesus but if you click now I'll show you TWO! Just pay separate S&H.
> 
> ...



I can google too.... http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html


----------



## bullethead (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I can google too.... http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-myth.html



Then by all means continue to search Pro-Con and neutral and find the differences and similarities for yourself.

I'm going to shoot some groundhogs so I'll be interested in your Osiris findings when I get back.


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## ross the deer slayer (Jul 19, 2012)

Wasn't this thread started by asking "what evidence would you like?" Believers ask if something might convince non-believers and non-believers respond with yes or no and say what might convince them?

It just seems like in every thread regarding religion everyone argues over the evidence of God. Maybe someone should start a thread about "the evidence of God" and people can argue there.   ..just a thought


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## gemcgrew (Jul 19, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> It just seems like in every thread regarding religion everyone argues over the evidence of God. Maybe someone should start a thread about "the evidence of God" and people can argue there.   ..just a thought



The real issue is not evidence or lack of evidence. The issue is spiritual death. A lot of professing "Christians" are searching for evidence as well.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I do believe in false "gods".



YEs.  In the OT they made idols etc.  What I was saying is more about the concept of God.  When we build statues we can get it wrong, when we speak doctrine we can be incorrect.  But none of that affects him.  

Again, for clarity, I am not taking a universalist approach to all this.  What I am saying is that God is universal, regardless of what I say about him.  Any faith system must start there.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> The real issue is not evidence or lack of evidence. The issue is spiritual death. A lot of professing "Christians" are searching for evidence as well.



If you are a Christian and need "evidence" something is wrong. I'm constantly searching for answers to various beliefs but I can assure you I don't need any evidence to prove God's existence.


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## ambush80 (Jul 20, 2012)

String,

I understood the OP but for me the evidence I would need to believe in god is the same as I would need to believe in Bigfoot.  A body.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> String,
> 
> I understood the OP but for me the evidence I would need to believe in god is the same as I would need to believe in Bigfoot.  A body.





Thanks for your answer, I started this thread to honestly find out what exactly people wanted when then talk about, "verifiable evidence" and such. Do you think if God manifested Himself in your bedroom tonight that you could verify it scientifically?


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> .... the evidence I would need to believe in god is the same as I would need to believe in Bigfoot.  A body.



What if God didn't have a body?  I mean, we are talking about a spiritual / eternal being here....a body would seem somewhat limited.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 20, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Thanks for your answer, I started this thread to honestly find out what exactly people wanted when then talk about, "verifiable evidence" and such. Do you think if God manifested Himself in your bedroom tonight that you could verify it scientifically?



I didn't think I would need to clarify but by 'a body' I meant something that others could see and verify as well; like Mount Rushmore.



JB0704 said:


> What if God didn't have a body?  I mean, we are talking about a spiritual / eternal being here....a body would seem somewhat limited.



He could use his superpowers to generate one again.


----------



## ASVP Viking (Jul 21, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Besides God appearing to you, is there any other evidence that would convince you He is real?



Seeing the evidence against the existence of an omnipotent space god certainly overpowers the tenets of a Bronze Age book written by no eyewitnesses to the Christian Messiah ever, about a story that had been circulated for thousands of years around the Mediterranean and ancient Egypt based around the cycle of the sun.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 21, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> He could use his superpowers to generate one again.



Ok......just, if I didn't believe, my answer would be something a little more sarcastic.....something like talking donkeys


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Ok......just, if I didn't believe, my answer would be something a little more sarcastic.....something like talking donkeys



If he (god) showed up on Larry King as a talking donkey, that would get my attention more than a personal testimony about rebuking a tornado.


----------



## Oconostota (Jul 21, 2012)

For the most part of my life, I have looked hard for evidence...some evidence...any kind of evidence of the God that many of us were taught to believe in.  Why?  Because I want to believe.  I do believe there was some sort of creator of this immensely complicated world we live in, and there are many things that strongly lead me to believe that there was a "design" to it all.  Lots of things.

For me to believe in the biblical God, I would have to see / hear / smell / taste something, outside of *circular logic*.  Pretty much every single thing taught about the biblical God is based on circular logic.  Gee, maybe that is by design, too.  

The evidence before me could really be just about anything - even something that would be considered really small and insignificant.  In all of my searching and hoping to find something, I have yet to see a single thing.

Something as small as me sincerely praying for an answer to a question, and receiving that answer as a mere thought...or sincerely praying for some sort of direction in heavy life struggles, even if it was in the direction I wasn't hoping to be pointed toward.  Again - something...anything.  Not a "voice" speaking to me, or a "parlor trick" appearing out of nowhere.  Most certainly not an apparition, which would most likely be just a flashback from my old days.

But because I absolutely refuse to subscribe to the epitome of circular logic (faith - as most people describe it), then I guess I will never see any evidence at all of a biblical God.

The biblical God most certainly does not, and cannot exist "in the eyes" of fundamental human linear logic (linear is not circular).  But if "we were created in His image", would we not even kinda, somewhat, almost follow the same kind of logic?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> If he (god) showed up on Larry King as a talking donkey, that would get my attention more than a personal testimony about rebuking a tornado.



Same here but I'm sure we could all think of better demonstrations than a talking donkey. That would be pretty lame for the creator of the universe. I've always thought a good "Hey look. Here I am!" message would have been to simultaneously incinerate the hearts of all the Nazis working the death camps and have your name emblazoned on their chest.


----------



## ross the deer slayer (Jul 22, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Same here but I'm sure we could all think of better demonstrations than a talking donkey. That would be pretty lame for the creator of the universe. I've always thought a good "Hey look. Here I am!" message would have been to simultaneously incinerate the hearts of all the Nazis working the death camps and have your name emblazoned on their chest.



If God were to display Himself so obviously,  the what faith would be required??


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 22, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> If God were to display Himself so obviously,  the what faith would be required??



None. What is so great about credulity?


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> String,
> 
> I understood the OP but for me the evidence I would need to believe in god is the same as I would need to believe in Bigfoot.  A body.



So you don't believe in things that you cannot see...like oxygen or gravity?


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So you don't believe in things that you cannot see...like oxygen or gravity?



 You shore got him there mtnwoman!


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You shore got him there mtnwoman!



Thank god, allah, jesus or whoever is up there she is back! Her insight was sorely missed!


----------



## Four (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So you don't believe in things that you cannot see...like oxygen or gravity?



You can see oxygen (or any element) and gravity is not a 'thing' its an effect of matter.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 23, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Thank god, allah, jesus or whoever is up there she is back! Her insight was sorely missed!



I know this doesn't matter, because she and I are on the same team....but I like MW.  She seems quite sincere.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 23, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I know this doesn't matter, because she and I are on the same team....but I like MW.  She seems quite sincere.



Thats just ol' Bishop's way of saying welcome back, he'll get around to calling her stupid in an around about way shortly. Nothing new here.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 23, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Thats just ol' Bishop's way of saying welcome back, he'll get around to calling her stupid in an around about way shortly. Nothing new here.



Don't get me wrong I enjoy the way her logic seems to work.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So you don't believe in things that you cannot see...like oxygen or gravity?




I believe that they are the result of the angels and demons fighting over our eternal souls.  When they get really into it, their wings get all tangled up and they spin around SO fast; I mean, so fast that we can't even imagine how fast it is with or mortal minds.  

And that's where oxygen and gravity come from. 

I'm not exactly sure HOW it works but I trust that one day when my soul stands at the foot of Big Rock Candy Mountain that it will be revealed to me.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I believe that they are the result of the angels and demons fighting over our eternal souls.  When they get really into it, their wings get all tangled up and they spin around SO fast; I mean, so fast that we can't even imagine how fast it is with or mortal minds.
> 
> And that's where oxygen and gravity come from.
> 
> I'm not exactly sure HOW it works but I trust that one day when my soul stands at the foot of Big Rock Candy Mountain that it will be revealed to me.



That's cool....so you can see the angels and demons, then? You just don't believe in things you can't see.....gotcha.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You shore got him there mtnwoman!



I sho nuf did, didn't I?


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

Four said:


> You can see oxygen (or any element) and gravity is not a 'thing' its an effect of matter.



It ain't a body though is it? That's what he said he needed, he didn't say he needed to see the effect of something. Now, me, I can see the effect of God, and the effect of oxygen and gravity.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Thank god, allah, jesus or whoever is up there she is back! Her insight was sorely missed!



I know you love me.....


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Thats just ol' Bishop's way of saying welcome back, he'll get around to calling her stupid in an around about way shortly. Nothing new here.



Awwww that's just his way of 'smoothin' over something he don't have the answer to.....


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I know this doesn't matter, because she and I are on the same team....but I like MW.  She seems quite sincere.



That's nice, thank you. You is my bud.

I am sincere, and that's not saying I'm always right.
I'm grounded in Christ, and that doesn't mean that my mind can't be changed from time to time.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That's cool....so you can see the angels and demons, then? You just don't believe in things you can't see.....gotcha.



No. Ain't never seen either.  But they're written about in a book and I believe in the book and that's all I need.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> If he (god) showed up on Larry King as a talking donkey, that would get my attention more than a personal testimony about rebuking a tornado.



Is your obsession with talkin' donkeys still goin' on? Why am I surprised?.....


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> No. Ain't never seen either.  But they're written about in a book and I believe in the book and that's all I need.



Are you in one of those contradicting your last post modes today? You just said you needed to see a body, which I assumed you need to actually see the 'matter'.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> It ain't a body though is it? That's what he said he needed, he didn't say he needed to see the effect of something. Now, me, I can see the effect of God, and the effect of oxygen and gravity.



Great! Now share that effect with the rest of us so that we may independently verify it for ourselves.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Your right, it would be no different. I started this thread to ask the question what demonstration or evidence you want.
> 
> That statement has evidence and you know it. I know you have read things that are evidence for Christ, you just don't think it's enough to believe it's true.
> 
> YOU don't think there is any more reason to believe Christianity given the evidence, I do, and so do 100's of millions of other people.



Thank God for scientific discoveries that have made unbelievers believers of many things.

At one time some people would've had a hard time believing there were other planets because they couldn't see them. People didn't believe the earth was round because they couldn't see it, even though it was round. Some once believed and some may still believe that the sun orbits the earth, because they couldn't see it. Some people believed the only light they would ever have in the dark would be firelight...they couldn't "see" anything else. Thank God somone did. Fifty years ago or so, no one thought we could have cordless phones, or cell phones, but the insight of someone proved it to be true...etc etc etc.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Thank God for scientific discoveries that have made unbelievers believers of many things.
> 
> At one time some people would've had a hard time believing there were other planets because they couldn't see them. People didn't believe the earth was round because they couldn't see it, even though it was round. Some once believed and some may still believe that the sun orbits the earth, because they couldn't see it. Some people believed the only light they would ever have in the dark would be firelight...they couldn't "see" anything else. Thank God somone did. Fifty years ago or so, no one thought we could have cordless phones, or cell phones, but the insight of someone proved it to be true...etc etc etc.



Believe whatever you want but don't claim it as knowledge until you can demonstrate it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Great! Now share that effect with the rest of us so that we may independently verify it for ourselves.



I think like some of the great scientists and inventors who proved what they only imagined at one time.....you'd have to be a little bit more open minded.

Wonder how many people laughed out the wright bros. or edison. I'm sure they had some naysayers.

Sooner or later you'll 'git' it and a light bulb will come on....pun intended.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Believe whatever you want but don't claim it as knowledge until you can demonstrate it.



I can claim what I want to? Thank you.
And I'll allow you the same. 
Don't claim something you can't prove either.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 23, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Thanks for your answer, I started this thread to honestly find out what exactly people wanted when then talk about, "verifiable evidence" and such. Do you think if God manifested Himself in your bedroom tonight that you could verify it scientifically?



Unless God came in the form of a talkin' donkey, I really don't think Ambush would git it.

String I think, just like thousands of years of naysayers on things we have developed today, there's nothing but physical proof that they would go for.  Jesus was present on earth at one time and yet many still didn't believe and still don't believe today, like the Jews, course they were blinded for a time. So this is always gonna be a fruitless debate.  We only have a few atheists here and it's always the same ones and we've been over and over this. They and we know almost what each one of us will say. They say the same thing over and over and so do we. It goes nowhere....except around a mulberry bush, which I've never seen a mulberry bush, but I'm pretty sure they exist.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 23, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I think like some of the great scientists and inventors who proved what they only imagined at one time.....you'd have to be a little bit more open minded.
> 
> Wonder how many people laughed out the wright bros. or edison. I'm sure they had some naysayers.
> 
> Sooner or later you'll 'git' it and a light bulb will come on....pun intended.



I'm sure there were plenty of naysayers until they demonstrated their claims. Theists have had thousands of years to put up or shut up. They've been wrong about rainbows and earthquakes and thunder and the shape and age of the earth and it's position in the cosmos yet they continue to claim knowledge from a divine source.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 24, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'm sure there were plenty of naysayers until they demonstrated their claims. Theists have had thousands of years to put up or shut up. They've been wrong about rainbows and earthquakes and thunder and the shape and age of the earth and it's position in the cosmos yet they continue to claim knowledge from a divine source.



If the earth is 40 catrillion years old and it took until the last few hundred years to discover/develop/invent or whatever you wanna call it....electricity, phones, radios, what's 6000 years compared to billions? Give us a little more time will ya?....sheesh.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> If the earth is 40 catrillion years old and it took until the last few hundred years to discover/develop/invent or whatever you wanna call it....electricity, phones, radios, what's 6000 years compared to billions? Give us a little more time will ya?....sheesh.



Shouldn't need much time if you have the creator of the universe whispering in your ear.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 24, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Shouldn't need much time if you have the creator of the universe whispering in your ear.



But I'm not a rocket scientist, nor an inventor, what excuse do they have for taking a billion years to come with a cigarette lighter?

God doesn't whisper in my ear how the technology of how to make things like a cellphone, cause if He did I'd have some place much more beautiful than here to visit...how 'bout you? I'd be out spending my loot. When you gonna invent something, since no one needs a clue outside themselves  to do so? ...you shoulda come up with something by now.?  You'd have to use what's already here, because you couldn't make anything out of nothing....no one can, nor ever has been able to.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> But I'm not a rocket scientist, nor an inventor, what excuse do they have for taking a billion years to come with a cigarette lighter?



They're human and don't share your advantage of being in direct communication with the creator of the universe that knows all. Funny though how the same fellas that wrote the bible and supposedly were also getting their information about how we should live our lives directly from the big guy upstairs still managed to believe all manner of myths about how the world works.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 24, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> They're human and don't share your advantage of being in direct communication with the creator of the universe that knows all. Funny though how the same fellas that wrote the bible and supposedly were also getting their information about how we should live our lives directly from the big guy upstairs still managed to believe all manner of myths about how the world works.



He knew that they didn't kneed to know about fancy stuff yet.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 24, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> They're human and don't share your advantage of being in direct communication with the creator of the universe that knows all. Funny though how the same fellas that wrote the bible and supposedly were also getting their information about how we should live our lives directly from the big guy upstairs still managed to believe all manner of myths about how the world works.



Still took someone an extremely long time to prove the earth was round...like what 5 gazillion years? Course it's the Christians fault everyone else(even the rocket scientists) believed the earth was flat. Blame it on the Christians...but that's ok, we're forgiven for it, and we don't have to find someone else to blame everyone's ignorance on.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 24, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> They're human and don't share your advantage of being in direct communication with the creator of the universe that knows all. Funny though how the same fellas that wrote the bible and supposedly were also getting their information about how we should live our lives directly from the big guy upstairs still managed to believe all manner of myths about how the world works.



Maybe like any other human, they just didn't get it the first time...God will whisper in someone's ear one day the cure for cancer. He certainly has warned us against certain things that causes us to get cancer, and we've never listened....and half the time, it's our life choices that give us cancer. Not always, but lots of time.

Who'd ever think that people die everyday from cigarettes and even though people have the knowledge to change that, they still smoke....no matter who whispers in their ears, they don't believe it....and then they are surprised when they die of cancer from smoking. People don't listen to the whispers...I know I always don't because I either don't want to, or I don't understand it so I just let it go.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 24, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Still took someone an extremely long time to prove the earth was round...like what 5 gazillion years? Course it's the Christians fault everyone else(even the rocket scientists) believed the earth was flat. Blame it on the Christians...but that's ok, we're forgiven for it, and we don't have to find someone else to blame everyone's ignorance on.



To err is human. I don't fault anyone for that. But those who swear up and down they are best buddies with the creator of the universe who told them how the rest of us must live our lives or else risk eternal torment get less leeway. Those folks claim to know far more than they do. They set that bar for themselves. Not our fault they never live up to it.




mtnwoman said:


> Maybe like any other human, they just didn't get it the first time...God will whisper in someone's ear one day the cure for cancer. He certainly has warned us against certain things that causes us to get cancer, and we've never listened....and half the time, it's our life choices that give us cancer. Not always, but lots of time.
> 
> Who'd ever think that people die everyday from cigarettes and even though people have the knowledge to change that, they still smoke....no matter who whispers in their ears, they don't believe it....and then they are surprised when they die of cancer from smoking. People don't listen to the whispers...I know I always don't because I either don't want to, or I don't understand it so I just let it go.



And yet when a third of the european population was dying of the black plague and Flagellants were going around whipping themselves because they thought it was a curse from God he couldn't manage to whisper in their ear that they just needed to practice a little sanitation.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 25, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Maybe like any other human, they just didn't get it the first time...God will whisper in someone's ear one day the cure for cancer. He certainly has warned us against certain things that causes us to get cancer, and we've never listened....and half the time, it's our life choices that give us cancer. Not always, but lots of time.
> 
> Who'd ever think that people die everyday from cigarettes and even though people have the knowledge to change that, they still smoke....no matter who whispers in their ears, they don't believe it....and then they are surprised when they die of cancer from smoking. People don't listen to the whispers...I know I always don't because I either don't want to, or I don't understand it so I just let it go.



What about those who get cancer by no fault of their own? Leukemia? Go to the childrens ward at St. Joes in Atlanta. look into those kids eyes and tell its all their fault, it was some choice they made.  Better yet tell them it the choice of some moron that ate the forbidden fruit god put right in from of him to tempt them. All the while knowing they would eat it, and curse the rest of mankind forever.  Yeagh what a great god, the power to make life perfect, yet the will to watch us suffer.


----------



## Madman (Jul 25, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> And yet when a third of the european population was dying of the black plague and Flagellants were going around whipping themselves because they thought it was a curse from God he couldn't manage to whisper in their ear that they just needed to practice a little sanitation.



Actually Atlas he (God) had whispered:


This list is not all inclusive but I believe the Bible gives several rules for sanitation.  

Leviticus 7:23–27
Leviticus 13 -15 
Deut. 23:9-13
Deut. 4:1-8
Much of Numbers 19
Exodus 15:25,26 

Many of the moral laws prevented the spread of disease, multiple partners pass disease from one to another.  “One man for one woman for life” prevents that.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2012)

Madman said:


> Actually Atlas he (God) had whispered:
> 
> 
> This list is not all inclusive but I believe the Bible gives several rules for sanitation.
> ...



I'm aware of those. Man has engaged in cleaning to some degree for all of human history. Even animals do it. So it's not surprising to find some rules related to cleanliness in the bible. The same can be found in many other religions. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_purification

Was God whispering in their ear too?

If you look at these cleaning rituals they often demonstrate a complete ignorance of the germ theory of disease and are simply ritualistic in nature, having nothing to do with real physical sanitation.

A couple examples of this...



> Numbers 19
> 
> 2 “This is a requirement of the law that the Lord has commanded: Tell the Israelites to bring you a red heifer without defect or blemish and that has never been under a yoke. 3 Give it to Eleazar the priest; it is to be taken outside the camp and slaughtered in his presence. 4 Then Eleazar the priest is to take some of its blood on his finger and sprinkle it seven times toward the front of the tent of meeting. 5 While he watches, the heifer is to be burned—its hide, flesh, blood and intestines. 6 The priest is to take some cedar wood, hyssop and scarlet wool and throw them onto the burning heifer. 7 After that, the priest must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water. He may then come into the camp, but he will be ceremonially unclean till evening. 8 The man who burns it must also wash his clothes and bathe with water, and he too will be unclean till evening.
> 
> ...





> Leviticus 14
> 
> 48 And if the priest shall come in, and look upon it, and, behold, the plague hath not spread in the house, after the house was plaistered: then the priest shall pronounce the house clean, because the plague is healed.
> 
> ...



Now do you think that is something ancient man in his ignorance would have come up with or something a perfect all knowing being would say?

The bible also tells us that God uses plagues as punishment for sin. No wonder then that when a plague hit europe that killed over 30% of the population that they would think it a curse from God. Maybe if more people hadn't accepted "God did it" as an answer and gone around whipping themselves as an act of appeasement we might have had more people putting in the effort to figure out the real reasons sooner.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 25, 2012)

Can you imagine how bad burning a heifer would smell?  Thank goodness that someone finally saw how silly that book is and started looking for the real answers.


----------



## Madman (Jul 25, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> If you look at these cleaning rituals they often demonstrate a complete ignorance of the germ theory of disease ....



When I taught my children not to play in the street I did not mention internal combustion engine theory either.



> having nothing to do with real physical sanitation.



Here we disagree.  If they had cleaned their houses then the air born diseases would not have infected them.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 25, 2012)

Madman said:


> When I taught my children not to play in the street I did not mention internal combustion engine theory either.
> 
> 
> 
> Here we disagree.  If they had cleaned their houses then the air born diseases would not have infected them.



Yeagh burning a heifer, killing a bird and then sprinkling its blood all over the house would have prevented that.


----------



## Madman (Jul 25, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Can you imagine how bad burning a heifer would smell?



I believe they left the incinerators back in Egypt.  You make do with what you have.


----------



## Madman (Jul 25, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> So it's not surprising to find some rules related to cleanliness in the bible.



You asked why God didn't whisper.  I believe he did.  Some people didn't listen.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2012)

Madman said:


> You asked why God didn't whisper.  I believe he did.  Some people didn't listen.



Tell you what Madman, you can stick with God's whispers and sprinkling blood seven times, I'll stick with the soap and antibiotics that man came up with.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 25, 2012)

He may not believe it but man came up with his stuff too.  They were just alot dumber than the guys that decided to find out the real truth instead of believing in magic and miracles.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 25, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> He may not believe it but man came up with his stuff too.  They were just alot dumber than the guys that decided to find out the real truth instead of believing in magic and miracles.



He knows. I very much doubt he really considers blood a good cleaning agent.


----------



## Madman (Jul 25, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Tell you what Madman, you can stick with God's whispers ..... I'll stick with the soap and antibiotics.



You'll get no argument from me, clean is good, medicine is good.   I believe Hyssop has some medicinal qualities. 



> that man came up with.



We can leave this for another discussion.


----------



## Madman (Jul 25, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> He knows. I very much doubt he really considers blood a good cleaning agent.



I never said there was no ritual in what they did. Once again for another discussion.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 27, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Tell you what Madman, you can stick with God's whispers and sprinkling blood seven times, I'll stick with the soap and antibiotics that man came up with.



In time everything is revealed. Those antibiotics came from something from creation, if those ingredients hadn't been available, no one would've come up with them.

You know the smallpox that killed hundreds of Native Americans, was also something man came up with...nice. man comes up with good or bad. Everything on this earth was created for our good, man has taken it and made some bad out of it....plastic for example. Pampers for another example for the convience of man/woman. He also gave us cotton to use for the same purpose. Cotton is organic and will go back to the earth, plastic won't. Notice tobacco goes back to the earth, but the manmade filters don't, that just keep people smoking, something that wasn't made for smoking, and it kills you. Blame it on God though. Man made cigarettes for another thing. Tobacco was put on this earth as a healing agent...ie bee stings, spider bites....etc. But no we use it as a drug to get 'high' and for companies to make money on. God gave us corn, we make shine out it, we should eat it. Man has made all kinds of stuff out of God's creation to do ill will towards other men for money.  I do like shine, but I know it ain't good for me. But blame it on God. My grandmother died from second had smoke from nonfiltered camels. My grandmother became sick not from what God made but from what man made.

God gives man the wisdom to make good things, satan tries to undermind that by taking the good things and turning them into bad.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 27, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> He knows. I very much doubt he really considers blood a good cleaning agent.



That was obedience though. Man made bleach that's a good cleaning agent, but so is cinnamon and lavender. Most organic plant essential oils are antibacterial, disinfectant and or healing. I can put lavender on warts, skin tags, and skin cancer and it will heal it within days. That's organic.  Most all of our medicines are made out of plants that grow on earth. Cocaine clots blood during operation, man snorts it or shoots it up to get high....satan involved in that. Heroin is for pain, some people use that to get high....that's God's fault? It says in the OT that all herbs were put on earth for man...what we use it for isn't God's fault. Could He keep us from doing that...yes..but we have free will to use it for bad and as long as satan is alive on earth, things will be used and plants will be used for bad.

Chemical compounds were made to make money. People that were burned at the stake used organics for healing, that put doctors and pharms out of business if we did that.....how could they make money doing that...with satans help. Let's pull up this root ie valerian and make something else out of it and charge $50 a pill.

There is organic healing plants that will cure everything on this earth, some of those haven't been discovered yet. But of course no one could make money on organic plants...so they combine them with other crap and sell it to us at a high price.

Go organic....we are organic.

As far as children having cancer...something in the sperm or the egg caused that and it could have been passed from the grandfather or the father, etc...putting things in their body that shouldn't have been going in there. The sins of the father are paid for by the children....physically.


----------



## Four (Jul 27, 2012)

please, please PLEASE don't attempt to cure cancer with lavender! PLEASE go to a doctor and don't attempt to self-cure your cancer.


----------



## bigreddwon (Jul 27, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That was obedience though. Man made bleach that's a good cleaning agent, but so is cinnamon and lavender. Most organic plant essential oils are antibacterial, disinfectant and or healing. I can put lavender on warts, skin tags, and skin cancer and it will heal it within days. That's organic.  Most all of our medicines are made out of plants that grow on earth. Cocaine clots blood during operation, man snorts it or shoots it up to get high....satan involved in that. Heroin is for pain, some people use that to get high....that's God's fault? It says in the OT that all herbs were put on earth for man...what we use it for isn't God's fault. Could He keep us from doing that...yes..but we have free will to use it for bad and as long as satan is alive on earth, things will be used and plants will be used for bad.
> 
> Chemical compounds were made to make money. People that were burned at the stake used organics for healing, that put doctors and pharms out of business if we did that.....how could they make money doing that...with satans help. Let's pull up this root ie valerian and make something else out of it and charge $50 a pill.
> 
> ...



Wow..Just wow...


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2012)

Four said:


> please, please PLEASE don't attempt to cure cancer with lavender! PLEASE go to a doctor and don't attempt to self-cure your cancer.



X infinity!  Supplement with organics if you must, but people go to school for a long time, and stand on the shoulders of millions of hours of research so that people might survive.  Take advantage of their efforts.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Wow..Just wow...



You ain't kidding.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 27, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> X infinity!  Supplement with organics if you must, but people go to school for a long time, and stand on the shoulders of millions of hours of research so that people might survive.  Take advantage of their efforts.



Yeah take advantage and give credit where it is due. Millions can die for hundreds of thousands of years while believers whip themselves, sacrifice goats, and all sorts of other superstitious nonsense. Then when men come along and find a cure to that disease these same folks gladly take the vaccine and give the credit to the deity that they must believe stood by and gave them a bunch of useless rituals while people died. Why? Because this same deity is responsible for the raw materials that man used for a cure.  How much more delusional and insulting can people be? 

Please, do us a favor and stick with the prayers, herbs, and ancient rituals for your illnesses if you can't figure out who really deserves the credit.


----------



## JB0704 (Jul 27, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah take advantage and give credit where it is due. Millions can die for hundreds of thousands of years while believers whip themselves, sacrifice goats, and all sorts of other superstitious nonsense. Then when men come along and find a cure to that disease these same folks gladly take the vaccine and give the credit to the deity that they must believe stood by and gave them a bunch of useless rituals while people died. Why? Because this same deity is responsible for the raw materials that man used for a cure.  How much more delusional and insulting can people be?
> 
> Please, do us a favor and stick with the prayers, herbs, and ancient rituals for your illnesses if you can't figure out who really deserves the credit.



Yep, I walked right into that one


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That was obedience though. Man made bleach that's a good cleaning agent, but so is cinnamon and lavender. Most organic plant essential oils are antibacterial, disinfectant and or healing. I can put lavender on warts, skin tags, and skin cancer and it will heal it within days. That's organic.  Most all of our medicines are made out of plants that grow on earth. Cocaine clots blood during operation, man snorts it or shoots it up to get high....satan involved in that. Heroin is for pain, some people use that to get high....that's God's fault? It says in the OT that all herbs were put on earth for man...what we use it for isn't God's fault. Could He keep us from doing that...yes..but we have free will to use it for bad and as long as satan is alive on earth, things will be used and plants will be used for bad.
> 
> Chemical compounds were made to make money. People that were burned at the stake used organics for healing, that put doctors and pharms out of business if we did that.....how could they make money doing that...with satans help. Let's pull up this root ie valerian and make something else out of it and charge $50 a pill.
> 
> ...



I mean, how can you argue with this type of brillance? It's amazing! 



Note to Mtnwoman, I think you ate the wrong mushrooms.


----------



## vowell462 (Jul 28, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That was obedience though. Man made bleach that's a good cleaning agent, but so is cinnamon and lavender. Most organic plant essential oils are antibacterial, disinfectant and or healing. I can put lavender on warts, skin tags, and skin cancer and it will heal it within days. That's organic.  Most all of our medicines are made out of plants that grow on earth. Cocaine clots blood during operation, man snorts it or shoots it up to get high....satan involved in that. Heroin is for pain, some people use that to get high....that's God's fault? It says in the OT that all herbs were put on earth for man...what we use it for isn't God's fault. Could He keep us from doing that...yes..but we have free will to use it for bad and as long as satan is alive on earth, things will be used and plants will be used for bad.
> 
> Chemical compounds were made to make money. People that were burned at the stake used organics for healing, that put doctors and pharms out of business if we did that.....how could they make money doing that...with satans help. Let's pull up this root ie valerian and make something else out of it and charge $50 a pill.
> 
> ...



Holy bejeesus batman. I read this twice just to make sure I wasnt dreaming. Absolutley unbelievable. This type of thinking....just wow.


----------



## bullethead (Jul 28, 2012)

It's led to the demise of many a good thread.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 28, 2012)

It reminds me of this.


----------



## fish hawk (Jul 29, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Can you imagine how bad burning a heifer would smell?



Wouldnt it smell like steak????


----------



## hobbs27 (Jul 30, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Still took someone an extremely long time to prove the earth was round...like what 5 gazillion years? Course it's the Christians fault everyone else(even the rocket scientists) believed the earth was flat. Blame it on the Christians...but that's ok, we're forgiven for it, and we don't have to find someone else to blame everyone's ignorance on.



Funny thing is.The book of Isaiah told us it was round many many years ago.
Isahiah 40:22
It is he that sits on the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in:


----------



## hobbs27 (Jul 30, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Yeagh what a great god, the power to make life perfect, yet the will to watch us suffer.



The perfect life is the afterlife.What about the poor old soul that suffers here for 100+ years and watches as their parents pass, then their siblings, then their life long mate, then their children. Laying in a bed just wondering why does it take so long to die? 
 Christians are foreigners to this land, our home is with the Lord.This place is full of sorrow, and false promises. A man could gain the whole world here and still have nothing without the Lord, for it would all be temporary.
 I dont know why little children have to face death, but I do know they are going to a better place, and I know I will see them again.


----------



## ambush80 (Jul 30, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> This is the great lie, the snake oil you've been sold and resale to your children. It's bull, pure steaming bull..
> 
> You get _THIS_ go-round, there is _NO_ glorious do over in the sky. Wasted time here and now is just that _wasted time_. Love your kids _NOW_, enjoy life _NOW, there is NO afterlife_.
> 
> ...



One side cries "Repent!", the other side cries "Live!"

I can't believe how many times I've heard people say that they can't wait for their reward in Heaven, which is the same thing as saying that they can't wait to die.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 30, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> This is the great lie, the snake oil you've been sold and resale to your children. It's bull, pure steaming bull..


Why do ya'll have to sound like an absolute jerk in your posts? This forum is getting old because most of you athiests can't have an adult conversation. I'm all for ribbing one another, but it gets taken too far in here too much.



> You get _THIS_ go-round, there is _NO_ glorious do over in the sky. Wasted time here and now is just that _wasted time_. Love your kids _NOW_, enjoy life _NOW, there is NO afterlife_.


Thanks for giving us your opinion. Just a heads up, loving your kids and "enjoying" life are something Christians do everyday. And BTW, neither mean a hill of beans if there is not afterlife, both are just something to do to fill the time while here.



> Heaven?? Heaven is watching your children play, being in their lives as they grow and learn *good things *from you.. Heaven is a day in the woods hunting, a day fishing with family.


If Mr. Holmes'(Aurora shooter) parents taught him that what he did was "good", because let's face it, the only definition you have for good is what society tells you it is, would you have a problem with that?



> Your gods only power is the power MEN _gave_ onto him in their _minds_ and an old book full of contradictions and evil, sprinkled with a few nuggets of wisdom. I get more consistent wisdom from fortune cookies...


Then by all means, live by those fortune cookies, it won't work out for you. 



> 'If' your god was real I would say he _sucks at being a god_ and his followers _excel at making excuses_ for him. His job poor performance pales in comparison to his followers ability to look past his obvious ineptitude..


He sucks at being God only by your understanding of Him, which is not very good.



> Live now for when you die there is NOTHING.. but what you left behind.


How miserable.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 30, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> It reminds me of this.



You are rediculous Bishop. Your delusional intellectual superiority is hilarious. If you don't like what she had to say, give a rebuttle that has some roots to it, instead of insulting her intelligence, like you always resort too.

Your "subjective" morals are shinning brighter than ever.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 30, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Thanks for giving us your opinion. Just a heads up, loving your kids and "enjoying" life are something Christians do everyday. And BTW, neither mean a hill of beans if there is not afterlife, both are just something to do to fill the time while here.



You really don't think there are any worth while ways to fill the time while here if this time is the only time you get?




stringmusic said:


> If Mr. Holmes'(Aurora shooter) parents taught him that what he did was "good", because let's face it, the only definition you have for good is what society tells you it is, would you have a problem with that?



Seems to me a person has a much better shot at understanding what is truly good learning from their parents than learning from the god of the bible.




stringmusic said:


> How miserable.



Only if you make it so. It's your choice. Some might find that choice crushing, others liberating.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 30, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You really don't think there are any *worth while *ways to fill the time while here if this time is the only time you get?


Key words. To answer your question, no, there is no such thing as worth while, other than what people come up with.



> Seems to me a person has a much better shot at understanding what is* truly good *learning from their parents than learning from the god of the bible.


Again, key words. Truly good is only a term definable with an ultimate purpose to human life. And yes, I read most of that article you posted a while back, and she makes no more of an argument for a person to know what truely good is than any other secular thinker I have ever heard try to explain it. No matter how many words she or any other atheists use, the core of the issue is without God, there is no definable good, it's all subject to this time and place or that society and this one. Whether you think God is evil and not the instuctor on morals to follow or not means nothing.





> Only if you make it so. It's your choice. Some might find that choice crushing, others liberating.


If you can find that liberating, that everything means ultimately nothing, that means it literally takes nothing to liberate you.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 30, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Key words. To answer your question, no, there is no such thing as worth while, other than what people come up with.



Well absent some other party who else _could_ determine that which is worth while than people? And what is wrong with that?




stringmusic said:


> Again, key words. Truly good is only a term definable with an ultimate purpose to human life. And yes, I read most of that article you posted a while back, and she makes no more of an argument for a person to know what truely good is than any other secular thinker I have ever heard try to explain it. No matter how many words she or any other atheists use, the core of the issue is without God, there is no definable good, it's all subject to this time and place or that society and this one. Whether you think God is evil and not the instuctor on morals to follow or not means nothing.



This coming from someone who will defend genocide on behalf of their deity. You have nothing to tell anyone here about morality.




stringmusic said:


> If you can find that liberating, that everything means ultimately nothing, that means it literally takes nothing to liberate you.



False premise to say it means nothing. Life means something to me and the fact that my life is limited makes it far more precious than if I was going to live forever. I think it is sad that you have been persuaded that your life is meaningless without some invisible parent in the sky to dictate for you why you are here. The fact of the matter is, you've decided for yourself what gives your life meaning. You just don't want to admit that it was you and not someone else.


----------



## bigreddwon (Jul 30, 2012)

I delteted my posts.


----------



## stringmusic (Jul 30, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Well absent some other party who else _could_ determine that which is worth while than people? And what is wrong with that?


Nothing, other than it doesn't really mean anything. It's worth while for me to raise and present my son the opportunity to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, that means something. I can make other things mean something to me, but ultimately really means nothing.



> This coming from someone who will defend genocide on behalf of their deity.


RONG



> You have nothing to tell anyone here about morality.


If I did defend genocide by anyone, why would that be a problem? Morals are subjective in your world, you have ZERO ground to stand on.



> False premise to say it means nothing. Life means something to me and the fact that my life is limited makes it far more precious than if I was going to live forever.


See my first response above.



> I think it is sad that you have been persuaded that your life is meaningless without some invisible parent in the sky to dictate for you why you are here. The fact of the matter is, you've decided for yourself what gives your life meaning. You just don't want to admit that it was you and not someone else.



I have decided to have a relationship with Christ, which is the meaning of life.


----------



## atlashunter (Jul 30, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Nothing, other than it doesn't really mean anything. It's worth while for me to raise and present my son the opportunity to have a relationship with Jesus Christ, that means something. I can make other things mean something to me, but ultimately really means nothing.



That's your choice just as it will be his. He may ultimately choose differently than you. Either way it is still up to each individual to find purpose in their own lives. The only difference is you pretend your decision was made by someone else and tell everyone their life has no meaning if they don't join you in your fantasy. You're not fooling anyone but yourself.




stringmusic said:


> If I did defend genocide by anyone, why would that be a problem? Morals are subjective in your world, you have ZERO ground to stand on.



I don't have to read the bible to figure out if genocide is wrong or not, I already know it is. If you can't understand why that is so then that just proves my point. You on the other hand approach the bible from the assumption that God can do no wrong which leaves you in the unenviable position of attempting to justify all manner of evil acts committed by or commanded by God. You tell us that our lives have no meaning if we don't agree with you and we can't determine right from wrong without going along with your clearly morally flawed religious text and then you wonder why folks get a bit gruff? You need to stop and take a look in the mirror and consider how arrogant and insulting your position is.




stringmusic said:


> I have decided to have a relationship with Christ, which is the meaning of life.



If having an imaginary friend of a guy that has been dead for 2,000 years is what it takes for you to think your life has any meaning then go for it. I think there are healthier approaches to living.


----------



## TheBishop (Jul 30, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You are rediculous Bishop. Your delusional intellectual superiority is hilarious. If you don't like what she had to say, give a rebuttle that has some roots to it, instead of insulting her intelligence, like you always resort too.
> 
> Your "subjective" morals are shinning brighter than ever.



Almost as hilarious as the fact that your posts seem to reinforce my so called delusions, and give me reason to feel that my intellect is atleast above some. I still will never be able to compete with your delusional righteous, and moral superiority, which is fanatical to the point of absurd.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

There is no evidence of God to some, no more than there is no evidence there are computers today to anyone that lived 300 yrs ago or even some tribes in the deepest darkest part of Africa even today.....and you have no way to even explain it...same for television or cellphones....no way they could comprehend and no way you could give them an answer that could prove 'it' to be true. 

No one could even prove to the Jews that Jesus was their Saviour as promised in Isaiah.

But in time both  senarios have been proven to be true.
String, but some will never 'see' or believe any of it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

Four said:


> please, please PLEASE don't attempt to cure cancer with lavender! PLEASE go to a doctor and don't attempt to self-cure your cancer.



Why not do both? I have proven to myself on my ownself that skin cancer can be healed with lavender...and warts on my granddaughter, even after nothing else worked. I do have enough sense to do both. But I have watched things disappear off the surface of my body using lavender. If it didn't work I'd go have it burned off. I'm not an idiot.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The perfect life is the afterlife.What about the poor old soul that suffers here for 100+ years and watches as their parents pass, then their siblings, then their life long mate, then their children. Laying in a bed just wondering why does it take so long to die?
> Christians are foreigners to this land, our home is with the Lord.This place is full of sorrow, and false promises. A man could gain the whole world here and still have nothing without the Lord, for it would all be temporary.
> I dont know why little children have to face death, but I do know they are going to a better place, and I know I will see them again.



Amen!

And those of us left behind after they are gone...the peace of Christ gives us peace beyond our comprehension to endure until we see them again.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> One side cries "Repent!", the other side cries "Live!"
> 
> I can't believe how many times I've heard people say that they can't wait for their reward in Heaven, which is the same thing as saying that they can't wait to die.  :*And just how would you know that's what they are waiting for, since you are of a different mindset*(



I don't want to die because I still have family on earth and I do not want to leave them....yet I know that when I do die, I will wait for those left behind and also see those who've gone on before.

Now you're a talking donkey that can read minds....sheesh...I still love ya though.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Wouldnt it smell like steak????



That's what I thought. 

Just an off topic question...we don't eat heifers....we just eat male cows? Do they smell different?


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> Holy bejeesus batman. I read this twice just to make sure I wasnt dreaming. Absolutley unbelievable. This type of thinking....just wow.



Well take it apart and give me your truth about it then.

Batman...that's a good'un.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Funny thing is.The book of Isaiah told us it was round many many years ago.
> Isahiah 40:22
> It is he that sits on the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretches out the heavens as a curtain, and spreads them out as a tent to dwell in:



Yes, I know. But yet many believed it was still flat...guess they didn't have 'scientists' back then to prove it wasn't.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Tell you what Madman, you can stick with God's whispers and sprinkling blood seven times, I'll stick with the soap and antibiotics that man came up with.



Did man create those products out of nothing?

Even I can take a bottle of Dawn and add a bit of alcohol and you gots u some good antibacterial cleaner. Big deal.

Lavender is proven to be antibacterial....big deal...but it's organic.

Load up on chemical antibacterial if you like...I choose not do, course I'm just a stupid old woman.....or maybe even part 'witch'.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 31, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I mean, how can you argue with this type of brillance? It's amazing! Oh my...prove me wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> Note to Mtnwoman, I think you ate the wrong mushrooms.



No trust me i've eaten the right mushrooms...and they too are organic...well only if you pick them yourself out of cow dung.....and not made in the hood, by new age scientists....get a little rat poison and a little of this and that...

You surely seem to think I am the one who is closeminded, but obviously you are the one who knows nothing about organic...now we have inorganic pot....mad scientists in the basement....


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## atlashunter (Jul 31, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Did man create those products out of nothing?
> 
> Even I can take a bottle of Dawn and add a bit of alcohol and you gots u some good antibacterial cleaner. Big deal.
> 
> ...



Blood is organic and the bible cites it as a cleaning agent. Do you use blood to clean your house? Just curious.


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## JABBO (Aug 1, 2012)

I enjoy reading most of the post on this forum with the exception of a few....


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## fish hawk (Aug 1, 2012)

JABBO said:


> I enjoy reading most of the post on this forum with the exception of a few....



You bring a lot to the conversation!!!


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## JABBO (Aug 1, 2012)

Exactly, I read mostly!!!  In fact, there would be alot better reading on here if a few others would use the same advice....just saying. There's some people that post on here that think they get "heaven" points if they reply to EVERY post even if that means posting something that sounds like a 3'rd grader wrote it!!!!  If you don't believe me,     just sit tight.....



fish hawk said:


> You bring a lot to the conversation!!!


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## ross the deer slayer (Aug 1, 2012)

JABBO said:


> Exactly, I read mostly!!!  In fact, there would be alot better reading on here if a few others would use the same advice....just saying. There's some people that post on here that think they get "heaven" points if they reply to EVERY post even if that means posting something that sounds like a 3'rd grader wrote it!!!!  If you don't believe me,     just sit tight.....



Am I like that? Atlas hunter says that most things I say point to no God.. I didn't think I was like that but...........


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## mtnwoman (Aug 2, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Blood is organic and the bible cites it as a cleaning agent. Do you use blood to clean your house? Just curious.


 Nope not my thing. I only use a few cleaning products and they are always the same ones...cinnamon, lavender, eucalyptas, and rosemary. I like the way they smell...no chemicals either.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 2, 2012)

JABBO said:


> Exactly, I read mostly!!!  In fact, there would be alot better reading on here if a few others would use the same advice....just saying. There's some people that post on here that think they get "heaven" points if they reply to EVERY post  tight..



Really? now you to can read minds? I don't think I get points...never even thought about it. I post here when I have nothing else to do....just call me terrorizing Annie. What fun would it be if everyone agreed?


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## atlashunter (Aug 2, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Nope not my thing. I only use a few cleaning products and they are always the same ones...cinnamon, lavender, eucalyptas, and rosemary. I like the way they smell...no chemicals either.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> I think part of the real issue in this forum and in this thread is this verse, " 18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
> " I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
> and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart.”
> 20 Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to the Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."
> ...



Amen! Very well put!  I wish I could use so few words to make this much sense.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 3, 2012)

atlashunter said:


>



Well let me also add, the only blood I need to cleanse my spirit, heart, and soul, is the cleansing blood of Christ. But it wasn't literally/physically rubbed on me to cleanse me....it's a spiritual thing. Perhaps that's what y'all were talking about in the first place about blood, I don't know.

Knowing this place, it was a joke....now that I think about it.  Sometimes it takes a while, I guess I'm not so smart sometimes when it comes to hanging around some people.

With my lavender 'crapola'...I was just giving information that might help someone heal their bodies, not their soul. Nothing can cleanse that except the blood of Christ.

SideNote
Arnica essential oil, is a draw out oil...for boils, pimples, sores, thorns, infection, splinters etc etc and it works quick.


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## Asath (Aug 9, 2012)

“Yes, I have my personal testimony and I also have faith, both which I cannot prove to you. But the historical evidence of the veracity of the bible and Jesus Himself are also evidence . . . “

Then:

“Nothing is being "referred back to my evidence", “

Resolve these statements, contained in the same post, please?

“Well, let's hear it, what sort of actual evidence do you want?”

Aside from avoiding, and referring back to your belief as all the ‘evidence’ you need, as I said would happen, and which DID happen, this challenge is quite a simple one.

Hypothetically, for the sake of making an argument where there isn’t one, you have removed the only real proof that can be made from the argument, and have in effect, asked, “In the absence of Proof, what would convince one of the fictitious?”

This is rather childish, logically --  a bit like asking, “If you DIDN’T get hungry, what makes you think you need to eat?”  This isn’t a question.  This is an argumentative provocation, and worse, it is one which removes the possibility of an answer right up front, placing the answer as being ruled out in the question itself.  Nice try.

I’ll make it easy on you – I’ll start believing in YOUR God the moment the Non-Christians STOP Believing equally in THEIRS.

Their ‘evidence’ is no less, or more, than your own, and somebody must be wrong. 

Surely it cannot be you.  ????


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## Nastytater (Aug 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Besides God appearing to you, is there any other evidence that would convince you He is real?



My evidence is in my heart. I don't need scientific knowledge or visible evidence to tell me.


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## ambush80 (Aug 9, 2012)

Nastytater said:


> My evidence is in my heart. I don't need scientific knowledge or visible evidence to tell me.



That's swell......


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## atlashunter (Aug 9, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> JB we regularly have that discussion about the lack of evidence. That's where faith comes to the rescue every time. There is no reasoning with someone who will believe anything on lack of evidence because it helps them sleep better at night.






Nastytater said:


> My evidence is in my heart. I don't need scientific knowledge or visible evidence to tell me.





Hey JB! As elfiii would say, "The persecution rests yo honna man!".


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## JB0704 (Aug 9, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Hey JB! As elfiii would say, "The persecution rests yo honna man!".





Yeah, I saw that coming........


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## vowell462 (Aug 9, 2012)

Nastytater said:


> My evidence is in my heart. I don't need scientific knowledge or visible evidence to tell me.[/QUOT
> 
> wow. Once people start believing, it shuts them down from thinking.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 9, 2012)

This is an interesting discussion. I did not read every thread. I feel that there is a factor to the equation besides "there is no proof" that is being left out.

The Devil is working hard on some folks, convincing them that there is no proof. It is similar to the presidential race that is starting to warm up. Who you gonna believe?

Does God speak? Undoubtedly, He does. Would the Devil try and find some way to convince you that there is no proof that God exists? Yes, he would undoubtedly try. I think that this is why God does not provide “irrefutable” proof to every individual. Because,  ANYTHING is refutable. “It could have been that bad burrito you ate.”

Have faith.

Unstop your ears and listen for the truth.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 9, 2012)

Asath said:


> “Yes, I have my personal testimony and I also have faith, both which I cannot prove to you. But the historical evidence of the veracity of the bible and Jesus Himself are also evidence . . . “
> 
> Then:
> 
> ...



The Devil's trick is that he arm wrestles you, and convinces you that you are winning, when in fact it is a stalemate. He continues this ruse until neither one of you bests the other and then, he wins without putting your arm down to the table. The stalling tactic has defeated you, ultimately.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 9, 2012)

Oh yeah, if you don't believe in the God of the Bible, then it is not likely you believe in the Devil either. That increases the Devil's odds of success by a great deal.


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## bullethead (Aug 9, 2012)

"da Debbil"
Yet another epic failure as an excuse for an all powerful being that is unable to handle things.


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## Asath (Aug 10, 2012)

Really?  

The Devil?

Seriously?

May we ask?  Who Created this Devil?

Just wondering.


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## atlashunter (Aug 10, 2012)

Asath said:


> Really?
> 
> The Devil?
> 
> ...



You didn't find that persuasive?


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## Asath (Aug 10, 2012)

I understand the Devil, completely.  Heck, I was married to her.  

I was just wondering if an expert on the subject could enlighten me as to just how that creature was created in the first place.

Might help me sleep at night.


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

Asath said:


> I understand the Devil, completely.  Heck, I was married to her.



You too???  I was married to her for five years.....and now, she gets to inflict her influence over my son every other weekend.....evil!


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## ted_BSR (Aug 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> "da Debbil"
> Yet another epic failure as an excuse for an all powerful being that is unable to handle things.



No excuses are given. It is handled.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 11, 2012)

Asath said:


> I understand the Devil, completely.  Heck, I was married to her.
> 
> I was just wondering if an expert on the subject could enlighten me as to just how that creature was created in the first place.
> 
> Might help me sleep at night.



No Asath. You will stay awake. It is a common concept. The Devil is alive and well.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 11, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> You didn't find that persuasive?



It wasn't meant to be persuasive.


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## ambush80 (Aug 11, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> No Asath. You will stay awake. It is a common concept. The Devil is alive and well.



"A pox upon you!"


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## ted_BSR (Aug 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> "A pox upon you!"



Rather childish Ambush, as I have come to expect.


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## atlashunter (Aug 11, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> It wasn't meant to be persuasive.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 11, 2012)

atlashunter said:


>



yawn.


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## bullethead (Aug 11, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> No excuses are given. It is handled.



If the devil is allowed to exist nothing is handled.


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## fish hawk (Aug 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> If the devil is allowed to exist nothing is handled.



Very lackluster response there bullethead.......Thought you were better than that!!!!


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## bullethead (Aug 11, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Very lackluster response there bullethead.......Thought you were better than that!!!!



Lackluster? How so?

More like precise and to the point.

I'll wait for you to explain how an all powerful being bent on fighting the forces of evil either cannot or will not handle the situation.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Lackluster? How so?
> 
> More like precise and to the point.
> 
> I'll wait for you to explain how an all powerful being bent on fighting the forces of evil either cannot or will not handle the situation.



Light cannot be defined unless dark also exists. This is basic stuff BH. You are precisely wrong, and prove that point very efficiently. Best stick to cheerleading for Asath and Atlas.


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## Asath (Aug 12, 2012)

“Light cannot be defined unless dark also exists. This is basic stuff BH.”

Um?  No.  This is an argument and an intellectual point being made?  ‘Air cannot exist unless lack of air also exists.’  ‘No cannot exist unless Yes also exists,’  ‘Margaritas cannot exist unless tequilas also exists.’  The point being made, from a logical standpoint, escapes me . . .

There are, even in our own solar system, places where ‘dark’ does NOT exist – places that do not rotate, or are in a position where the rotation does not prevent the relentless rays of the local star (light) to ever stop reaching them.  In such places, light is simply what is, and needs not be ‘defined’ by the counterpoint of lack of light (darkness).  The simplest example of this truth is the star itself (SUN) which knows no darkness, and is, ITSELF, the very light you seek a darkness to define.  Please start over, and make a point that is not philosophically biased, and smugly, but completely wrongly delivered.

This example couldn’t be more wrong.  

This is basic stuff, which we try to teach in Eight-Grade Earth Science.


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## fish hawk (Aug 12, 2012)

Anytime I read one of asath's post I cant help it, but that wizard in The Wizard of Oz comes to mind.Not the scary one but the one behind the curtain that gets his cover blown by the little dog.......


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## bullethead (Aug 12, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> Light cannot be defined unless dark also exists. This is basic stuff BH. You are precisely wrong, and prove that point very efficiently. Best stick to cheerleading for Asath and Atlas.



While I cheer lead, you better study.


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## bullethead (Aug 12, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Anytime I read one of asath's post I cant help it, but that wizard in The Wizard of Oz comes to mind.Not the scary one but the one behind the curtain that gets his cover blown by the little dog.......



Living in a dream world from a make believe move as if it is reality. Reminds me of the religious.


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## atlashunter (Aug 12, 2012)

Asath said:


> “Light cannot be defined unless dark also exists. This is basic stuff BH.”
> 
> Um?  No.  This is an argument and an intellectual point being made?  ‘Air cannot exist unless lack of air also exists.’  ‘No cannot exist unless Yes also exists,’  ‘Margaritas cannot exist unless tequilas also exists.’  The point being made, from a logical standpoint, escapes me . . .
> 
> ...



It is a pretty absurd argument considering the Christian view that God preceded Satan and will in the end defeat evil.


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## fish hawk (Aug 12, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Living in a dream world from a make believe move as if it is reality. Reminds me of the religious.



For some reason,all the sudden......... the straw man comes to mind!!!


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## fish hawk (Aug 12, 2012)

bullethead said:


> While I cheer lead, you better study.



Giddy up!!!


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## Asath (Aug 13, 2012)

I suspect that they have it backwards, as always.  EVIL, is the definition of the natural world.

From the beginning, to today, every time you turn around Mother Nature (God) is trying very hard to kill you, and in the end ALWAYS succeeds.  This fact tended to annoy folks, and still does.

Earthquakes, floods,  hurricanes, flesh-eating predatory animals and insects, diseases, wildfires, tornadoes . . . . the list could take days to enumerate in detail . . . point is, the NATURAL WORLD was NOT designed to pamper our little spoiled butts.  It conspires at all turns to remind us that we are not outside of nature – we are part of it, and have no special place in the ‘design’ of things.

Being ill-equipped, by ‘design,’ to survive in this world, and realizing quite early, it seems, that that was the case, we adapted by forgetting about trying to be faster or stronger than the critters around us, gave up on having better sight or smell or hearing, since we don’t, and hinged our survival, as a species, on being more clever than the Evil which is the world we live in.  Just about everything on this planet is trying to kill us, they saw, and that was sort of a disappointing realization, I imagine.  

In effect, our ancient ancestors looked around, realized that they had no real skills by comparison, and developed only this one – ‘We can outsmart you.’

Sort of. That doesn’t, even today, prevent folks from doing tremendously stupid things, but as a long-term survival strategy it seems to have worked out okay.   This is just to say that virtually EVERYTHING that we now define as Evil was here before we were.

Good does not exist in the natural world.  We had to invent that idea all by ourselves.  

There was never a time when EVERYTHING was GOOD, and all that existed was tea and roses.  Never.  We did not ‘Fall’ out of the Grace of ‘Goodness,’ into the world as it is.  The world is just what it is, and predates us by many millions of years.  

‘Good’ is the artificial concept, and we thought that one up all on our own.  ‘Evil’ is not a counterpoint, defining the opposite – it is the condition.  So if you have a ‘Devil,’ that devil is one that existed far before anyone had to think up a ‘god’ to counter it.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 13, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It is a pretty absurd argument considering the Christian view that God preceded Satan and will in the end defeat evil.



In the end, that evil will not cease to exist. In the begining, evil did exist, but it was not known to man.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 13, 2012)

Asath said:


> I suspect that they have it backwards, as always.  EVIL, is the definition of the natural world.
> 
> From the beginning, to today, every time you turn around Mother Nature (God) is trying very hard to kill you, and in the end ALWAYS succeeds.  This fact tended to annoy folks, and still does.
> 
> ...



Our fundamental differences about the nature of things will never allow us to agree.


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## atlashunter (Aug 14, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> In the end, that evil will not cease to exist. In the begining, evil did exist, but it was not known to man.



There is no beginning for an infinite God so unless Satan is equally eternal there was a time when there was only God and only good (assuming the claim that God is exclusively good is true).


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## ambush80 (Aug 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> There is no beginning for an infinite God so unless Satan is equally eternal there was a time when there was only God and only good (assuming the claim that God is exclusively good is true).



When did Satan come to being on God's timeline?  When did I come into being for that matter?  What does a timeline look like to God?  How long was it before any of that happened?  Was there a time where there was nothing existing except for God?  How long was that?


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## Asath (Aug 14, 2012)

Got milk?

Darn.  That would require a cow.

Got a cow?

Darn.  

And so on.


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## fish hawk (Aug 15, 2012)

Asath said:


> Got milk?
> 
> Darn.  That would require a cow.
> 
> ...


Well at least it's something different!!!


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## ted_BSR (Aug 16, 2012)

Asath said:


> “Light cannot be defined unless dark also exists. This is basic stuff BH.”
> 
> Um?  No.  This is an argument and an intellectual point being made?  ‘Air cannot exist unless lack of air also exists.’  ‘No cannot exist unless Yes also exists,’  ‘Margaritas cannot exist unless tequilas also exists.’  The point being made, from a logical standpoint, escapes me . . .
> 
> ...



You assume I am uneducated, or that I am educated by the government, and you are angry that I do not believe what you believe even after you have tried so hard to show me the error of my ways. I think you are full of baloney.


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