# makes me want to hurl



## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 11, 2009)

I was talking a few days ago with a friend of mine about this and that and we got on the topic of how people on here like to pose questions about atheists and how it ends up a bashing session or a "they need saving" session.  He then told me about something i knew of but never heard much spoken of.


He told me he would never go back into a church because of the hideous crimes committed behind closed doors when his brother went to the American Choir School.  His brother ended up committing suicide soon after being brought out of the school and there being criminal charges filed in regards to the level of individualized attention certain boys were getting.  He told me there could not be a god that would let his most faithful molest young kids.  What kind of a sick, twisted god is that?  Honestly i did not know what to say other than agree.

He then told me how some religious folks would say, it was a lesson he had to learn or god has a path for everyone. 


To those people... I say YOU learn that lesson and get back to me on what you learned...


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## Huntinfool (Mar 11, 2009)

That's unfortunate.  I think that "God has a plan" is used to often in place of just plain old comfort.  

Truth is truth, but if it doesn't meet the need of the moment, it can do more harm than good.  What that guy needs to hear is some compassion.  He needs to hear that somebody hurts with him and that God hurts with him.  Breaks my heart to hear that this guy had this experience and that his brother had something even harder to deal with.  

You'll probably hear a lot of "it's not God's fault" in the next few posts.  All I can say is that I know that he grieved with that family.  Why did it happen?  I honestly can't tell you.  I know he didn't cause it.  But he certainly allowed it.  I don't have the answer for you.




I think, though, that you mis-classify "his most faithful".  The guys who did THAT are NOT God's most faithful.  I promise you that.


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2009)

Not at all familiar with the American Choir School, but I have a problem with saddling God with the evil done by mankind. I also would not make the assumption that those involved were his most faithful. 

The question is asked, "What kind of a sick, twisted god is that?" Your friend is asking the wrong question, but I do have an answer.

The sick, twisted god is the god of those who did the evil, wicked things to those children, Satan.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

IMO there is a special corner of he11 for those who commit these crimes against children. 


Luke 17

 1 And he said unto his disciples, It is impossible but that occasions of stumbling should come; but woe unto him, through whom they come!

 2 It were well for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, rather than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.


I have no doubt the ones responsible for this will be dealt with if not in this world the next. 

And like HF said they are not the faithful.


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## SBG (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Not at all familiar with the American Choir School, but I have a problem with saddling God with the evil done by mankind. I also would not make the assumption that those involved were his most faithful.
> 
> The question is asked, "What kind of a sick, twisted god is that?" Your friend is asking the wrong question, but I do have an answer.
> 
> The sick, twisted god is the god of those who did the evil, wicked things to those children, Satan.



Well said...but expect it to fall on deaf ears.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 11, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> That's unfortunate.  I think that "God has a plan" is used to often in place of just plain old comfort.
> 
> Truth is truth, but if it doesn't meet the need of the moment, it can do more harm than good.  What that guy needs to hear is some compassion.  He needs to hear that somebody hurts with him and that God hurts with him.  Breaks my heart to hear that this guy had this experience and that his brother had something even harder to deal with.
> 
> ...



I just know this guy never really talks much to most people so when he does, people listen.  I talk to him because he is a neighbor and he helps watch over my place back home.  When he speaks, i listen because he is actually very smart regardless to the life he lives as a recluse.  

Another thing i do not get is why the higher management tries to hide the fact that this is an ongoing problem by settling quietly and even going so far as to moving around certain ones who are under suspicion.  I would love to see how much the church pays out in law suits for this type thing ever year.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 11, 2009)

I googled the school and found this...I had the exact name wrong.

http://www.americanboychoir.org/movie.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Boychoir_School

http://www.sesamenet.org/links.html

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...5A25757C0A9649C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

www.smith-lawfirm.com/SOL_NJ_Article_Child_Sexual_Abuse.doc


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## Ronnie T (Mar 11, 2009)

Human beings can be horrible.
In the church and out.


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## christianhunter (Mar 11, 2009)

Pastor's,Priest,Bishop's anyone in office at church are human.Some are called of GOD,some think they are,and some aren't.If a child is mistreated in any way by anyone it should be reported.From a Pastor or Priest,a teacher at school,daycare,even uncle or aunt so and so.This in my opinion should be instilled by the parents.I remember my parent's alway's telling me,not to go off with stranger's etc;.These day's it's not alway's a stranger,sadly it could even be a dad.Regardless of what you may think,you can't blame GOD for the evil's in this world.We have an adversary,and his name is satan.


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## gtparts (Mar 11, 2009)

These day's it's not alway's a stranger,sadly it could even be a dad or mom.


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## Lowjack (Mar 11, 2009)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> I was talking a few days ago with a friend of mine about this and that and we got on the topic of how people on here like to pose questions about atheists and how it ends up a bashing session or a "they need saving" session.  He then told me about something i knew of but never heard much spoken of.
> 
> 
> He told me he would never go back into a church because of the hideous crimes committed behind closed doors when his brother went to the American Choir School.  His brother ended up committing suicide soon after being brought out of the school and there being criminal charges filed in regards to the level of individualized attention certain boys were getting.  He told me there could not be a god that would let his most faithful molest young kids.  What kind of a sick, twisted god is that?  Honestly i did not know what to say other than agree.
> ...



Are you saying God Molested the child ?
You Lost me.


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## jawja_peach (Mar 11, 2009)

*you should know... forgive booboo's I didn't proof.*

*I hear this ALL THE TIME. My sister n law, Pigpens sister, told me one time, 'what's this thing with worshiping Him, he must have a huge ego that needs stroking, therefor the Christians pray to Him and that makes His ego even bigger.'
I told her and I do you and everyone, God is great! He has done so much for me, why wouldn't I want to praise Him for doing something. Do we not thank our kids and tell them how good they've done and how much it means to us that they did something for us? We do. And in my life, that's why I praise God.  I have several friends that are unbelievers and one told me that she prayed one time and it was that her parents wouldn't get divorced. They still did. We all need to remember God does answer prayers, they just aren't always what we want. I might say, God I need 3000 bucks. Please send me the money, and after the whole day of watching and waiting for the Lord to come down and give me the money, I put the mail aside which contained a refund on a bill I over paid that was $3200 bucks!! Or, my husband, who hasn't been working all that much, comes up and say, I got a great new job with benefits and all... Do we see it? NOPE! But it's still there. The answer. My brother shot and killed himself when I was 14. I wasn't all that close to him, but it really upset me, and it was the first time I ever saw my daddy cry. I have since lost him too, and it won't be long and I'll start loosing others because my generation is taking that of the 'adult' and the others are 'elders'....There are going to be times when things happen we won't understand or see why, but one day, if we have an open heart we will. I lost my daddy with I was 20yrs. old. We had just gotten close again, as we grew apart during my Jr. High & early High School yrs. It hurt and was the hardest thing I've ever went through. I was lost and believe in God and Jesus, but didn't 'know' them the way I should. I wasn't living my life for Him, but for me and Pigpen. God was working on me even then...I got saved not even a year later...

I hate this has happened to your friend, and that you have a sour taste in your mouth due to these fake Christians apparently he and you have come in contact with. To be honest, this isn't the best place to lean about God, because those that believe are great people and they will tell you the truth. The others, the others, well, to me they just confuse things. But again, you nor your friend will never understand if you have a hard heart and a closed mind.

Hope this message has shed a little light on things for you...

Peach~*


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

gtparts said:


> These day's it's not alway's a stranger,sadly it could even be a dad or mom.


 

That is how it happened to our 2 adopted daughters...

Do you think they got any jail time, or even a fine?  NOPE.

They got their kids taken away, and that is why me and my wife have kids now...

DB BB


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> That is how it happened to our 2 adopted daughters...
> 
> Do you think they got any jail time, or even a fine?  NOPE.
> 
> ...



Thank God for people like you willing to step into the gap and take such a responsibility.


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2009)

There are going to be these kinds of people in every place.  I don't think it's particular to religious schools.

However, what is different is the lessons being taught.  In religious schools, children are taught to not question authority, to obey, obey, obey or else.  That kind of lesson plan gives the authority figure a great deal more coercive power over the students.

Students taught in a curriculum based on reasoned inquiry have a better foundation to resist such coercion.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> There are going to be these kinds of people in every place.  I don't think it's particular to religious schools.
> 
> However, what is different is the lessons being taught.  In religious schools, children are taught to not question authority, to obey, obey, obey or else.  That kind of lesson plan gives the authority figure a great deal more coercive power over the students.
> 
> Students taught in a curriculum based on reasoned inquiry have a better foundation to resist such coercion.



Really??? You are kidding right? 

Let's just look at the public school abuses... Should we???


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Really??? You are kidding right?
> 
> Let's just look at the public school abuses... Should we???



Did you skip the first line?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> Did you skip the first line?



No I'm taking issue with the specific line about the kids being better equipped...


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> No I'm taking issue with the specific line about the kids being better equipped...



Ok.  But let's compare apples to apples shall we?

Let's compare secular private schools vs. religious private schools.  

Public (government) schools teach their own form of authority.  Instead of the bible, you have the government as the ultimate authority.  Same sort of idea, different authority figure.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> Ok.  But let's compare apples to apples shall we?
> 
> Let's compare secular private schools vs. religious private schools.
> 
> Public (government) schools teach their own form of authority.  Instead of the bible, you have the government as the ultimate authority.  Same sort of idea, different authority figure.



No where close to the same sort of idea pnome. Who is above the gov't? Who do you appeal to?


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Who is above the gov't? Who do you appeal to?




Ideally, the answer to both would be "the people" but the truth may be something different.  

Look, I'm not going to defend public schools here.  

My point is simply, that when you teach students to obey an authority without question, you instill a certain mindset in that student that has a wide open window to abuse by people who claim to represent that authority.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> Ideally, the answer to both would be "the people" but the truth may be something different.
> 
> Look, I'm not going to defend public schools here.
> 
> My point is simply, that when you teach students to obey an authority without question, you instill a certain mindset in that student that has a wide open window to abuse by people who claim to represent that authority.



Yep. Look at our current gov't situation.

All I am saying is that your premise is not only flawed but quite frankly depends upon the utter goodness of man kind. Something that I have never believed in.


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## earl (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome, you are dead on. Obeying authority included any adult  in my youth. Failure to do so would get you a serious session with the ''rod''. The thread that was about who molested the most kids should be even more proof.


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## redneckcamo (Mar 11, 2009)

people who molest kids need a leaded brain injection !!! 

that said ..... man has a free will an was created that way .....God doesnt control mann otherwise we would just be puppets an not men an women !!!!

dont blame GOD for the actions of evil men ..... robes an collars .....smiles an handshakes .......money an posessions do not  a good man make !!!  

I have heard this kind of rationalizations all my life ......they are not gonna fly when you stand begore the GREAT WHITE THRONE !!!


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## reformedpastor (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> There are going to be these kinds of people in every place.  I don't think it's particular to religious schools.
> 
> However, what is different is the lessons being taught.  In religious schools, children are taught to not question authority, to obey, obey, obey or else.  That kind of lesson plan gives the authority figure a great deal more coercive power over the students.
> 
> Students taught in a curriculum based on reasoned inquiry have a better foundation to resist such coercion.





You started out well but it went down hill quick. Maybe it's been that way in some you know of, but, that's not at all the case with the ones I am familiar with. I teach many children and I have never taught "obey your authority without question." 

Also, what do you mean by curriculum based??


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## dawg2 (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> There are going to be these kinds of people in every place.  I don't think it's particular to religious schools.
> 
> However, what is different is the lessons being taught.  In religious schools, children are taught to not question authority, to obey, obey, obey or else.  That kind of lesson plan gives the authority figure a great deal more coercive power over the students.
> Students taught in a curriculum based on reasoned inquiry have a better foundation to resist such coercion.



I can tell you, that is incorrect.  In my day as well as now, with my children's school.


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## reformedpastor (Mar 11, 2009)

earl said:


> pnome, you are dead on. Obeying authority included any adult  in my youth. Failure to do so would get you a serious session with the ''rod''. The thread that was about who molested the most kids should be even more proof.



Like most of us you probably didn't get all that you deserved.


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 11, 2009)

redneckcamo said:


> man has a free will an was created that way
> 
> dont blame GOD


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2009)

reformedpastor said:


> You started out well but it went down hill quick. Maybe it's been that way in some you know of, but, that's not at all the case with the ones I am familiar with. I teach many children and I have never taught "obey your authority without question."
> 
> Also, what do you mean by curriculum based??



Let me rephrase it for you:  "obey the word of God without question."  You're telling me that is not what your children are taught?

I mean a curriculum based on religious faith.


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## pnome (Mar 11, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> I can tell you, that is incorrect.  In my day as well as now, with my children's school.



So, they are not taught to obey the 10 commandments and worship Jesus or else they will be tortured for eternity in a very hot place?


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## earl (Mar 11, 2009)

dawg ,your children ,and you ,weren't taught to respect you elders ? That is the same thing as authority. How can your kids learn in a school that doesn't have discipline [authority again ] ?


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## dawg2 (Mar 11, 2009)

pnome said:


> So, they are not taught to obey the 10 commandments and worship Jesus or else they will be tortured for eternity in a very hot place?



You watch too much TV


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## dawg2 (Mar 11, 2009)

earl said:


> dawg ,your children ,and you ,weren't taught to respect you elders ? That is the same thing as authority. How can your kids learn in a school that doesn't have discipline [authority again ] ?



Absolutely my children are taught to respect elders, that starts in my house.  HOWEVER, they are also taught that power is NOT absolute and that anything they are asked that would make them uncomfortable they should not do and to tell me immediately.  I don't play around with folks that diddle kids.  I have 0 tolerance for that.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 11, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> IMO there is a special corner of he11 for those who commit these crimes against children.
> 
> 
> Luke 17
> ...



All they'd have to do is repent, atone, etc and they're walking streets of gold in the next life.   Prison's another story but that's brief compared to eternity.  So check that.


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## earl (Mar 11, 2009)

dawg , didn't insinuate you had any tolerance . My apologies if thats what came across.It is unusual to find some one born in the south,raised during the 50 s and 60s allowed to even remotely question authority.


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## dawg2 (Mar 12, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> All they'd have to do is repent, atone, etc and they're walking streets of gold in the next life.   Prison's another story but that's brief compared to eternity.  So check that.



That is a big NEGATIVE.  Not for me buddy.



earl said:


> dawg , didn't insinuate you had any tolerance . My apologies if thats what came across.It is unusual to find some one born in the south,raised during the 50 s and 60s allowed to even remotely question authority.



I was born in late 60's.  My kids are raised to repsect adults, however, they are allowed freedom to NOT do something an adult asked.  I do not believe in complete nor absolute submission to authority.


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## fivesolas (Mar 12, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> All they'd have to do is repent, atone, etc and they're walking streets of gold in the next life.   Prison's another story but that's brief compared to eternity.  So check that.



I will pray that God measures the same amount of forgiveness you judge is appropriate for other's transgression and sin, to your own transgression and sins.


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## gtparts (Mar 12, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I will pray that God measures the same amount of forgiveness you judge is appropriate for other's transgression and sin, to your own transgression and sins.



You don't have to pray for it, five.

God's word guarantees it.


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## ambush80 (Mar 16, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Not at all familiar with the American Choir School, but I have a problem with saddling God with the evil done by mankind. I also would not make the assumption that those involved were his most faithful.
> 
> The question is asked, "What kind of a sick, twisted god is that?" Your friend is asking the wrong question, but I do have an answer.
> 
> _The sick, twisted god is the god of those who did the evil, wicked things to those children, Satan._




If God doesn't get that stupid dog of his back on a chain and in his own yard then I'm calling the cops!!!!!!!!


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## connorreid (Mar 16, 2009)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> I was talking a few days ago with a friend of mine about this and that and we got on the topic of how people on here like to pose questions about atheists and how it ends up a bashing session or a "they need saving" session.  He then told me about something i knew of but never heard much spoken of.
> 
> 
> He told me he would never go back into a church because of the hideous crimes committed behind closed doors when his brother went to the American Choir School.  His brother ended up committing suicide soon after being brought out of the school and there being criminal charges filed in regards to the level of individualized attention certain boys were getting.  He told me there could not be a god that would let his most faithful molest young kids.  What kind of a sick, twisted god is that?  Honestly i did not know what to say other than agree.
> ...


What a horrible situation! Those wicked people should definitely be punished....I do think some atheists like to get on here though and post rantings about Christians and try to bash them also.  Hitler was an atheist and look what he did.............


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 16, 2009)

connorreid said:


> Hitler was an atheist .



Better double check your facts.


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## connorreid (Mar 16, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Better double check your facts.


 Need to check yours.......they are DISPUTED facts.....the way he lived his life prooved he was an athiest (even if he was a PRACTICAL Atheist and not a PROFESSING Atheist).


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## PWalls (Mar 16, 2009)

Whatever Hitler was, he surely wasn't Christian.


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## connorreid (Mar 16, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Whatever Hitler was, he surely wasn't Christian.


very, very obvious..............he is a perfect example of claiming one thing and doing another.  Pure Heathen, he was.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 16, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Whatever Hitler was, he surely wasn't Christian.



Well if he was Christian, he may have proven more effective at his craft.  

Read up on Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka (mash here) when you get a chance.  He had a hand in the 1994 Rwandan genocide and was a high-ranking catholic priest or what have you.  Up to 1 million slaughtered in about 100 days.  Pretty darn efficient.  

I'm glad Hitler wasn't a Christian.


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## connorreid (Mar 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Well if he was Christian, he may have proven more effective at his craft.
> 
> Read up on Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka (mash here) when you get a chance.  He had a hand in the 1994 Rwandan genocide and was a high-ranking catholic priest or what have you.  Up to 1 million slaughtered in about 100 days.  Pretty darn efficient.
> 
> I'm glad Hitler wasn't a Christian.


I just used Hitler as an example but you could use Stalin (professing atheist) as another example of an atheist killing people.....I would say Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka was definitely a PRACTICAL atheist, although not a professing atheist..........He obviously was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  Nothing Christian about him, so how could he be a Christian????


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## crackerdave (Mar 17, 2009)

ronnie t said:


> human beings can be horrible.
> In the church and out.



yes!


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 17, 2009)

connorreid said:


> I just used Hitler as an example but you could use Stalin (professing atheist) as another example of an atheist killing people.....I would say Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka was definitely a PRACTICAL atheist, although not a professing atheist..........He obviously was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  Nothing Christian about him, so how could he be a Christian????



Wow what a strategy.  Anybody Christian that commits crimes and atrocities loses their Christian status retroactively.  Very convenient to be able to gloss in such a way.


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## connorreid (Mar 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Wow what a strategy.  Anybody Christian that commits crimes and atrocities loses their Christian status retroactively.  Very convenient to be able to gloss in such a way.


Do those people look and act like Christians SHOULD to you??


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 17, 2009)

connorreid said:


> Do those people look and act like Christians SHOULD to you??



Who exactly are _"those people"_?  How should Christians look?  They don't count as Christians if they're not Americans or white Europeans or something?  

How should they act?  Better.  Suffice it to say Christians, as the bumper sticker asserts, are not perfect.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 17, 2009)

connorreid said:


> I just used Hitler as an example but you could use Stalin (professing atheist) as another example of an atheist killing people.....I would say Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka was definitely a PRACTICAL atheist, although not a professing atheist..........He obviously was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  Nothing Christian about him, so how could he be a Christian????



Nice rebuttal by the way.  

"This catholic priest is nowhere near as bad as Stalin".  

Pretty telling when you have to resort to that.


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## dawg2 (Mar 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Nice rebuttal by the way.
> 
> "This catholic priest is nowhere near as bad as Stalin".
> 
> Pretty telling when you have to resort to that.



So honestly, we should identify one evil man as the sole representative of any faith or lack of?  So I can draw my conclusions about atheists from any atheist I choose on a whim?  Nice double standard you hang around your neck.


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## connorreid (Mar 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Who exactly are _"those people"_?  How should Christians look?  They don't count as Christians if they're not Americans or white Europeans or something?
> 
> How should they act?  Better.  Suffice it to say Christians, as the bumper sticker asserts, are not perfect.


I would think that since we are not God, who "searches" and "knows" the heart, that we look at the fruit.  Look at David in the OT where he had Bathsheba's husband killed.  His act was horrific and wicked, yet he repented.  Some Christians do horrible things but true Christians repent.  I never saw HITLER or STALIN give or show a public repentance.  We can only know people by their fruit (regardless of what they say they are).  Wouldn't you agree?  Have a good un.


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## Six million dollar ham (Mar 17, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> So honestly, we should identify one evil man as the sole representative of any faith or lack of?  So I can draw my conclusions about atheists from any atheist I choose on a whim?  Nice double standard you hang around your neck.



If you want to, then go right ahead.  I predict, well heck as we've already seen in this thread, that anybody that commits evil acts will be deemed "not a Christian".  

But if you think this one standout is the sole Christian who's committed atrocity, you'd be wrong.  He's not a unique example by any means.  I can provide other examples if need be.  So there's no double standard on my part.  And as I stated if you want to use faulty logic to arrive at a conclusion, feel free.  It's not the most intellectual thing you can do but feel free anyway.


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## dawg2 (Mar 17, 2009)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If you want to, then go right ahead.  I predict, well heck as we've already seen in this thread, that anybody that commits evil acts will be deemed "not a Christian".
> 
> But if you think this one standout is the sole Christian who's committed atrocity, you'd be wrong.  He's not a unique example by any means.  I can provide other examples if need be.  So there's no double standard on my part.  And as I stated if you want to use faulty logic to arrive at a conclusion, feel free.  It's not the most intellectual thing you can do but feel free anyway.




I don't recall burning all atheists based on ONE ATHEIST'S evil acts.  You are barking up the wrong tree.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 18, 2009)

Even that by which Satan would destroy us is graciously, wisely, and sovereignly overruled by our God to do us good. We can, therefore, speak to the fiend of he11 as Joseph did to his brothers. That which he meant for evil God meant for good; and good it shall accomplish (Gen. 50:20).


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 22, 2009)

connorreid said:


> What a horrible situation! Those wicked people should definitely be punished....I do think some atheists like to get on here though and post rantings about Christians and try to bash them also.  Hitler was an atheist and look what he did.............



Wow, it is funny how some come into a thread and post an obvious derailment in hopes to detract from the original post.  Would have been nice to see something stating that in fact without a doubt, Hitler was an Atheist and nothing else.  

Whats funny is in this particualr thread, it is to point out an OBVIOUS fact that some men of god or whatever you may call them...bishops, preists, child molesters or whatever, was a direct  to the same people that like to  at Atheists for the simple fact that they require more than a book to "believe" in something or someone such as a god or gods.  

I posted this because i hope to show some people that christians are not the saints they make themselves out to be.  I could have been a real meany and posted something a bit more damaging such as readings about certain events such as the Crusades, but decided to take a more simpler route. Some Christians will denounce their own at the slightest sense of wrongdoing which makes Christians look bad...such as church members stealing from their own church, or actual PRINTED stories of Payoffs of Love Abuse victims by the Christian Church like this...

http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/CHRISTIAN-CHURCH-TO-PAY-OFF-MORE-love-ABUSE-VICTIMS.html

OR THIS....

http://feminist.org/news/newsbyte/uswirestory.asp?id=10604

OR THIS...

http://www.newsday.com/news/local/nassau/ny-liabus2212568955mar22,0,1339524.story

I could post way more negativity in regards to corruption within the church itself, but i will suffice to say that you get the point.  Thing is, when sex abuse happens to someone your friends with or affects them directly, you look at it from a different light.  

What's funny is that up to the point that a certain bishop or preist or whatever capacity he holds in the church, he is an honorable and highly respected man, but then he does something like this and automatically christians say he is satans spawn or he never was a christian to begin with or blah blah blah...Talk about turning your back on your own...


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## gtparts (Mar 23, 2009)

(excerpted from 11P&YBH's post)



> Whats funny is in this particualr thread, it is to point out an OBVIOUS fact that some men of god or whatever you may call them...bishops, preists, child molesters or whatever, was a direct  to the same people that like to at Atheists for the simple fact that they require more than a book to "believe" in something or someone such as a god or gods.
> 
> I posted this because i hope to show some people that christians are not the saints they make themselves out to be.



1) If it is obvious, why bother?
2)In as much as, all who claim to be Christians are not necessarily saved, and therefor, not Christians; and in light of the fact that even true Christians still commit sins, I will concede your point.

Christianity is not about being better than others. It is not about being good enough. Christianity is not about being perfect. It is about a relationship that brings the Christian forgiveness and reconciliation to a holy God, something you neither understand nor desire at this point in your life.

You have my prayers and my pity.

gtparts


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## connorreid (Mar 23, 2009)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Wow, it is funny how some come into a thread and post an obvious derailment in hopes to detract from the original post.  Would have been nice to see something stating that in fact without a doubt, Hitler was an Atheist and nothing else.
> 
> Whats funny is in this particualr thread, it is to point out an OBVIOUS fact that some men of god or whatever you may call them...bishops, preists, child molesters or whatever, was a direct  to the same people that like to  at Atheists for the simple fact that they require more than a book to "believe" in something or someone such as a god or gods.
> 
> ...


Christians are sinners.  What else can you expect? You are definitely targeting one group (Christians) to put down......why not the atheist like Stalin (he was only a murderer)?? My point was that just b/c somebody PROFESSES something, doesn't mean they are.  Somebody can say they are a Christian all day long but not be.  You just want to gripe about Christians that's all.......I agree with you that there are corrupt people in the church but there are corrupt people everywhere.  One example of corruption is the stealing of tax payers $$$ to promote government run schools that teach the religion of secular humanism to children.  Do you have a problem with that??


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 23, 2009)

connorreid said:


> Do you have a problem with that??



sure...but there again, your using one person as a basis for the rest of the Atheists in the world.  At least i am using people within the church to prove a point.  Who really cares what Stalin was...other than a murderer...


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## connorreid (Mar 23, 2009)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> sure...but there again, your using one person as a basis for the rest of the Atheists in the world.  At least i am using people within the church to prove a point.  Who really cares what Stalin was...other than a murderer...


I can give more examples but I think you get the point.....your griping about me, then turning around and doing the same thing you are accusing me of.......by the way, what in the world is "murder" in an atheistic world??? Nothing would matter in an atheistic world - You're born, you live, you die and that's it - NO ACCOUNTABILITY.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 23, 2009)

My Christian Brothers,

Why are you responding to someone who has made it clear he doesn't like Christians or their message.  He's here to do the very thing he's lecturing us Christians about us doing.  But he's the one on the spiritual forum saying negative things about God's children.  

Good lord, you'd think this was an atheist forum.

This is a forum for spiritual people to fight amongst themselves.


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## connorreid (Mar 24, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> My Christian Brothers,
> 
> Why are you responding to someone who has made it clear he doesn't like Christians or their message.  He's here to do the very thing he's lecturing us Christians about us doing.  But he's the one on the spiritual forum saying negative things about God's children.
> 
> ...


This is a forum for discussion and the atheists should be refuted.  Why do you think they take over every institution in our land?  B/c Christians are weak and roll over and die.  It is shameful, but we must refute their arguments and show that they are foolish and illogical.  Pray that Christians would be stronger and wiser.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 25, 2009)

connorreid said:


> Pray that Christians would be stronger and wiser.



Wasn't that the concept behind the Crusades??


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## connorreid (Mar 25, 2009)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Wasn't that the concept behind the Crusades??


Christ's kingdom is of preaching the gospel, not killing by the sword.........sound like "Christian Crusaders" to you???


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## cjwellz (Mar 25, 2009)

Stalin= Murderer
Moses= Murderer
Hitler= Murderer
David= Murderer

A Preacher once told me that the only thing an unsaved person will do that a saved person won't is go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- when he dies. The ten commandments weren't written to be followed, they were written to point out the fact that they can't be adhered to by human beings; requiring reconciliation by an outside means in order to be ushered into heaven. Does God weigh our sins? Could Hitler not have been forgiven? Sure he could have, Moses and David were. The Bible tells us all to "work out your own salvation"; therefore none of us are to "judge" salvation or ****ation, but spiritual fruit for the purpose of evangelism or support. Atheism doesn't miss the mark any more than any other human philosophy or religion, it just misses the mark period. Therefore, those who have attempted to evangelize an athiest have been faithful to the task given by Jesus; it is His work to save them if they are to be saved, not ours.


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## connorreid (Mar 25, 2009)

cjwellz said:


> Stalin= Murderer
> Moses= Murderer
> Hitler= Murderer
> David= Murderer
> ...


I agree with most of what you said.  The 10 commandments should be followed (although we can't keep them perfectly).  The law points us to Christ b/c we can't keep it.  We should strive to b/c we love the Lord and want to obey Him.  Jesus said if you love me then keep my commandments.  These are His commandments. I don't think it is OK to commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, murder, etc.  I'm sure you don't either.  Right?


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## WTM45 (Mar 26, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> This is a forum for spiritual people to fight amongst themselves.



Can't find that anywhere in the forum rules.


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## cjwellz (Mar 26, 2009)

connorreid said:


> I agree with most of what you said.  The 10 commandments should be followed (although we can't keep them perfectly).  The law points us to Christ b/c we can't keep it.  We should strive to b/c we love the Lord and want to obey Him.  Jesus said if you love me then keep my commandments.  These are His commandments. I don't think it is OK to commit adultery, steal, bear false witness, murder, etc.  I'm sure you don't either.  Right?



Absolutely not; it wasn't alright for Moses to murder nor for Hitler to murder. What is the difference between the two? Is one more human than the other or does God simply favor one over the other? I think the difference is simply that one recognized at some point the authority of God, admitted the wrong they had done and genuinely asked forgiveness for their sins. Was Jesus saying that Peter didn't love Him? I don't think He was, rather He was saying live your life as close to Mine as you can and I will help you along the way. I think Jesus was talking about His earthly commandments to "go out and I will make you fishers of men" rather than the Old Testament commandments. Good discussion.


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## connorreid (Mar 27, 2009)

cjwellz said:


> Absolutely not; it wasn't alright for Moses to murder nor for Hitler to murder. What is the difference between the two? Is one more human than the other or does God simply favor one over the other? I think the difference is simply that one recognized at some point the authority of God, admitted the wrong they had done and genuinely asked forgiveness for their sins. Was Jesus saying that Peter didn't love Him? I don't think He was, rather He was saying live your life as close to Mine as you can and I will help you along the way. I think Jesus was talking about His earthly commandments to "go out and I will make you fishers of men" rather than the Old Testament commandments. Good discussion.


Christ says in Matt 5: 17 & 18 that "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets.  I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.  For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one JOT or one TITTLE will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled." You can't separate the OT and NT.  The OT saints looked forward to Christ and we look back.   As far as Moses goes, I don't understand what you are talking about.  I think all murder is wrong.  Also, why would Jesus expound on "adultery" in Matt 5, if he didn't PRESUPPOSE the law that says "do not commit adultery".  Same with "murder beginning in the heart" in Matt 5.  It is very obvious Christ is expounding on the moral law/Ten Commandments (which are a SUMMARY of the moral law).  This, judging by scripture, can't be denied.  God bless.


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