# labs



## yellingrebel78 (Jan 13, 2011)

got a question about labs because I'm wanting to get one to train for hunting .Which is better yellow , black or chocolate or is there any difference in them besides the price wise


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## Buckhustler (Jan 13, 2011)

It all depends on genetics. My buddy has some loaded black lab puppies for sale at a great price. PM me if your interested.


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## GADAWGS (Jan 13, 2011)

I have had all three over the years. Not a lick of difference. Just have to learn your pup is all


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## ngaduck (Jan 13, 2011)

I know of one top notch chocolate litter right now if you are willing to pay for quality. Just as others have said, color makes no difference. It's all in the breeding.


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## JimDraper (Jan 13, 2011)

TIM1980 on here has some started Blacks


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## DUhollywood1 (Jan 13, 2011)

look for some silver labs


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 13, 2011)

thanks yall for the info I'm waiting on some money then I'm going to buy one I was getting some info on them this year was my first time duck hunting and I enjoyed it so I wanted to get a dog to learn with me to


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## brownceluse (Jan 13, 2011)

DUhollywood1 said:


> look for some silver labs



You dirty


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## DUhollywood1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Gatorb said:


> soooooooo, whats the best color boykin for hunting? thinking about getting a 3rd....



I've seen people dye poodles pink, don't see why you couldn't a boykin.......


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## JDARRACOTT (Jan 13, 2011)

It all depends on who you talk to i have a chocolate lab who is smart as a whip when she wants to be. I know people who will not even look at a chocolate lab, they say they are too dumb. What ever color you get just have the time and effort to put in training them and you will do fine. the biggest thing is gentics, i have owned some really smart labs and i have owned some labs that were dumb as a sack of rocks.


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 13, 2011)

JDARRACOTT said:


> It all depends on who you talk to i have a chocolate lab who is smart as a whip when she wants to be. I know people who will not even look at a chocolate lab, they say they are too dumb. What ever color you get just have the time and effort to put in training them and you will do fine. the biggest thing is gentics, i have owned some really smart labs and i have owned some labs that were dumb as a sack of rocks.



thanks man I got plenty of time to train one . I'm diabled and can't work no more so it would give me something to pass time by and have me a good bird dog and a friend


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## DUhollywood1 (Jan 13, 2011)

Gatorb said:


> me thinks that might flare a mallet??



ducks are color blind.....


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 13, 2011)

thanks everyone


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## bass player (Jan 14, 2011)

I've had two small black females, English and Canadian bloodlines.
My current huntin' buddy, Jazz is 7 years old, satin black, about 55 lbs soaking wet and 100lbs of heart.

When we went to look at the pups we took an old sock. We picked the one that seemed to be the most interested in it and following us around, wanting to play and chase after it the most. (the wife picked her right away, what can I say).
We took a small red collar, to mark her, they were only 4 or 5 weeks. 
When we brought her home, again with an old sock, and then frozen duck wings, I started playing fetch in the hallway so she had to bring them back to me. That was at 8 weeks. I read some good books like "Water Dog" by Richard Wolters. Just keep the sessions short and fun.

Which ever you chose, listen to what gadawg said," learn your pup". You'll get back much more than you put into it if you do it right with a good dog. Give em lots of love and praise. My two huntin' buddies, Powder and Jazz have been a real blessing to me over the last 20 years or so. Good luck.


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## USMC0844 (Jan 14, 2011)

TIM1980 does have a couple of blacks for sale. I believe one male and one female. They are very good dogs. You could pm him and try to schedule to come look at the dogs.


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 14, 2011)

bass player said:


> I've had two small black females, English and Canadian bloodlines.
> My current huntin' buddy, Jazz is 7 years old, satin black, about 55 lbs soaking wet and 100lbs of heart.
> 
> When we went to look at the pups we took an old sock. We picked the one that seemed to be the most interested in it and following us around, wanting to play and chase after it the most. (the wife picked her right away, what can I say).
> ...



thanks


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## meckardt (Jan 14, 2011)

It's a proven fact that Black dogs tend to be the best in performance. Then it goes yellow and then Chochlate. Chochlate is last because the breeding is just starting to come around for performance instead of backyard breedings. I am not saying that there are no good Choc's out there, just that in HT, FT etc... Black dogs have won and finished in the top a higher percentage.  Silver labs are behind Chochlates in their breedings and are not recognized by AKC and Im not sure on UKC. Thats kind of a personal view point. But for records its Black, Yellow, Chochlate. If you want a good dog research a breeding etc... don't just go pick a pup from anyone. Just because its a lab doesn't mean it's in its genes. Best of Luck


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## Bird Slayer (Jan 14, 2011)

I have heard that black labs get hot easier in the summer. Not sure if its true but thats what i have been told.


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 14, 2011)

thanks everyone so do ya'll think I'll be to get a good one when I get ready with out paying a arm and leg for one


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jan 14, 2011)

bass player said:


> I've had two small black females, English and Canadian bloodlines.
> My current huntin' buddy, Jazz is 7 years old, satin black, about 55 lbs soaking wet and 100lbs of heart.
> 
> When we went to look at the pups we took an old sock. We picked the one that seemed to be the most interested in it and following us around, wanting to play and chase after it the most. (the wife picked her right away, what can I say).
> ...



I've got a question and a comment:

1) What in the world are you trying to say when you say she is "satin black?"  We've got all the color distinctions we need there are 3 colors but people want to talk about fox red (yellow), white (yellow), silver (not a pure lab, don't get me started) and now you want to make a distinction in the color BLACK?  Please.

2) I trained my first retriever with WaterDog.  I would NOT call it a good book for modern retriever training and I would NOT recommend it to anyone.  I would recommend SmartWorks Vol. 1 to a newbie in a heartbeat.



meckardt said:


> It's a proven fact that Black dogs tend to be the best in performance. Then it goes yellow and then Chochlate. Chochlate is last because the breeding is just starting to come around for performance instead of backyard breedings. I am not saying that there are no good Choc's out there, just that in HT, FT etc... Black dogs have won and finished in the top a higher percentage.



Oh come on.  He is looking for a hunting dog, not a field trial champion.  And while you are right about the field trial stats, some of that is simply a function of black being the dominant color.  There is no evidence that performance is linked to color in any way.  Having said that, any time you breed for color only you are neglecting everything else.  This is what was originally done with many breedings of chocolates which is why they have the reputation they do.  If people can make a quick buck by breeding for a popular recessive color and do so without regard to anything else then the quality suffers, but it isn't because chocolate dogs (or yellow dogs) are inherently inferior due to color.



yellingrebel78 said:


> thanks everyone so do ya'll think I'll be to get a good one when I get ready with out paying a arm and leg for one



It depends, but you should understand that the purchase price is just a tiny fraction of what you are going to spend on that dog over its lifetime.

Make sure you buy from a reputable breeder and check into health clearances such as hips and elbows OFA (good or excellent in parents preferred), eyes CERF clear (in parents), EIC (at least one parent CLEAR), CNM (at least one parent CLEAR), etc.  And like yellingrebel alluded to, just because the dog has papers doesn't mean squat in terms of its genetic ability or desire to perform.  You need to look for a pedigree with performance titles such as MH and HRCH (FC and AFC probably out of your price range since you seem focused on that)...you want as many of these titles as possible in your pups pedigree to help stack the odds in your favor and not just several generations back but on the parents and grandparents of your pup.  It is even better if you get a chance to see one or both of the parents and see how they work and what their temperaments are.

Good luck.


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## steveus (Jan 14, 2011)

*Labs*

I have had 4 Labs, all Black males, just because that's what I wanted. All from Minnosota. I'll pay for what I think is good breeding, but would not pay one penny extra for "color".  Just me.

Steve


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 14, 2011)

the reason I ask bout the price is I'm disabled and can't afford to pay a large chunk of money out all at once i know i'll have spend money on her or him for the rest of it life but the prices i been seeing is from 150 to 3000 dollars I just like to be able to stay under the 300 mark but still like to be able to get a good pup when i get ready to get one


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## Bird Slayer (Jan 14, 2011)

IMHO I dont know what it is about people saying you want a dog with a good bloodline and he has to be registered and all this mess. 

The best dog my dad ever had wasnt registered. He was a chocolate lab and my dad said he could lay a steak in front of him and tell him no and he wouldnt touch it. 

It doesnt matter if they are registered or not unless you are gonna breed them or show them. For hunting purposes it really doesnt matter. Im sure a good bloodline may help making training slightly easier but if you spend time with one and train it it doesnt matter about the bloodline. You can buy a registered thousand dollar dog with a champion bloodline and all that if you want but if you dont spend time with him and trian him none of it matters.


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## gsubo (Jan 14, 2011)

Something about a black lab that I just love. Think its really just a personal preference though.  I do think that chocolates tend to camo into the blind better than say a black or yellow.  I go through alot to camo my BLM up to make sure the birds dont see a black blob sitting there as they're working in.  Yellow too would seem to stand out in timber a little more..but hopefully by then it would be too late.  If you do good on your end they'll all work out fine.


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## gsubo (Jan 14, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> IMHO I dont know what it is about people saying you want a dog with a good bloodline and he has to be registered and all this mess.
> 
> The best dog my dad ever had wasnt registered. He was a chocolate lab and my dad said he could lay a steak in front of him and tell him no and he wouldnt touch it.
> 
> It doesnt matter if they are registered or not unless you are gonna breed them or show them. For hunting purposes it really doesnt matter. Im sure a good bloodline may help making training slightly easier but if you spend time with one and train it it doesnt matter about the bloodline. You can buy a registered thousand dollar dog with a champion bloodline and all that if you want but if you dont spend time with him and trian him none of it matters.



Trust me..if you want a dog thats gonna perform well hunting..chances are WWWAAAAYYYYYY better if you go with a dog that has a hunting/field trial background.  You can't train a dog to want to retrieve..hes got to have that drive already in him.  Then thats a starting point. If it doesnt have the desire to retrieve how can you ever make a good hunting dog out of him???

Ive been through this..I have a dog thats mostly lab..chocolate in color.  Got him for a cheap price thinking I could make him into a fine tuned hunting retriever if I trained him right..wrong!  He lost all interest in retrieving anything..except for live ducks when they hit the water on hunts. I was ignorant when i bought him.  Hes the best house dog you could ever have..and will retrieve any bird that falls in front of him..but he will turn his nose up to anything you throw for him in the backyard.  Point is you cant train a retriever that doesn't want to retrieve.  I did some research and made sure my next puppy was from a hunting background..and it paid off.  He would retrieve all day and night if he could.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jan 14, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> IMHO I dont know what it is about people saying you want a dog with a good bloodline and he has to be registered and all this mess.
> 
> The best dog my dad ever had wasnt registered. He was a chocolate lab and my dad said he could lay a steak in front of him and tell him no and he wouldnt touch it.
> 
> It doesnt matter if they are registered or not unless you are gonna breed them or show them. For hunting purposes it really doesnt matter. Im sure a good bloodline may help making training slightly easier but if you spend time with one and train it it doesnt matter about the bloodline. You can buy a registered thousand dollar dog with a champion bloodline and all that if you want but if you dont spend time with him and trian him none of it matters.




While your last sentence is certainly true (100%), I disagree with the premise that bloodlines don't matter.  Have you ever seen a retriever that didn't want to retrieve?  You ever seen a retriever that liked to retrieve but didn't care about birds?  Well, there are plenty of them out there and if they don't have the "want to" there is nothing in this world that you can do to put it in them.

There are no guarantees in life, but if you buy a dog out of proven bloodlines (just simply being purebred doesn't mean much of anything) you can significantly improve your chances of having a dog with drive and desire who is birdy, intelligent, trainable, can mark and loves water.

Is it possible that someone has a mutt who is a great hunting dog?  Sure, but the chances of getting a mutt and making a great hunting dog out of him are much, much lower than if you get a purebred retriever out of proven hunting bloodlines.

As for the health clearances I described earlier (OFA hips & elbows, CERF clear eyes, EIC and CNM), if you think those are not important (you didn't say) then you are dead wrong.  I have a friend who bought a lab puppy with no health clearances and she was doing great in training then she came up lame.  They x-rayed her hips and found out she had severe hip displaysia.  Do you know what it is like to look at your kids and tell them the pup they have fallen in love with and who you've been spending all your time training has to have expensive (several thousand dollar) hip replacement surgery or be put down possibly before she is even one year old (extreme case)??  This isn't an isolated case, this happens a lot.  Stories just like my friend's story are a dime a dozen.  Hip displaysia is a big deal in labrador retrievers and the best way to guard against it is to breed dogs with sound hips to dogs with sound hips (OFA Good or Excellent) and guess what?  Nobody spends the money to get health clearances on a mixed breed dog or even an unregistered purebred dog because they will never get their money back out of the puppies.

Registration papers alone don't mean squat, but if you are going to come on here and tell people that unregistered dogs are the way to go for a hunting retriever then you are out in left field on this topic.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jan 14, 2011)

yellingrebel78 said:


> the reason I ask bout the price is I'm disabled and can't afford to pay a large chunk of money out all at once i know i'll have spend money on her or him for the rest of it life but the prices i been seeing is from 150 to 3000 dollars I just like to be able to stay under the 300 mark but still like to be able to get a good pup when i get ready to get one



I haven't paid for a puppy in a long time, so I don't know what the going prices are right now, but I do know prices are down somewhat because of the economy.  I would GUESS that you could get a pup out of HRCH parents (both sides) for $300-$500 with the parents having at least some of the health clearances I listed previously.

Even if the pup's parents are HRCH and/or MH, I would still want to see at least one of the parents doing their job (retrieving) whether it be on video or in person.  You can't hide retrieving desire and you can't manufacture it either.

After you get your pup I would encourage you to join Old South Hunting Retriever Club and come to our monthly training sessions and get involved.  It will be good for your pup and you'll learn a lot and meet other people who are serious about training their retrievers.  You may even want to attend one of our training sessions or other events before you get your pup.  That could be a good place to find out about upcoming litters or litters ready to be sold and even see one or both of the parents working.


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## meckardt (Jan 14, 2011)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> I've got a question and a comment:
> 
> "Oh come on. He is looking for a hunting dog, not a field trial champion. And while you are right about the field trial stats, some of that is simply a function of black being the dominant color. There is no evidence that performance is linked to color in any way. Having said that, any time you breed for color only you are neglecting everything else. This is what was originally done with many breedings of chocolates which is why they have the reputation they do. If people can make a quick buck by breeding for a popular recessive color and do so without regard to anything else then the quality suffers, but it isn't because chocolate dogs (or yellow dogs) are inherently inferior due to color."
> 
> ...


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## Bird Slayer (Jan 14, 2011)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> Registration papers alone don't mean squat, but if you are going to come on here and tell people that unregistered dogs are the way to go for a hunting retriever then you are out in left field on this topic.



Thats not what im saying at all. Im simply saying although a good bloodline helps with everything doesnt matter if they are registered or not, if you dont spend time with them then it doesnt matter what kind of bloodline they have.


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## Baglimit (Jan 14, 2011)

The highest point dog ever in UKC Hunt Test is "GRHRCH UH Buddy Ryans JimBo". He was a chocolate lab trained by an amateur. I saw him run many different tests and I would have to say he may be one of the best dogs I ever seen.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jan 14, 2011)

meckardt said:


> So if color isn't linked to performace wouldn't there be more dominant chochlates in the game? Just saying
> 
> There's still a boat load of Chochlates out there that are in FT's and HT's. However there are very few that are note worthy and you hear about.



I'm saying that part of the reason that black labs dominate is because there are just so many more of them because genetically that color is dominant.  There are more black labs in existence, more black lab puppies being born, more black lab puppies being trained for field trials, etc., so that is going to naturally throw the numbers off even if the blood lines were identical, which they aren't.  To get a chocolate lab you almost have to be TRYING to produce one, in other words breeding for color...and breeding for color as the primary concern is never a good thing, but there is not a performance characteristic linked to coat color.  Initially when chocolate labs became popular people were breeding with that as their only criteria and that is a very bad thing in terms of performance.  Instead of trying to breed the best female they could find to the best male they could find that would compliment her characteristics, abilities, etc., they were just breeding any chocolate male to any chocolate female because puppy buyers were paying a high price for chocolate and were buying them no questions asked.  So the result is that a lot of the bloodlines producing chocolate labs were nothing special at all in terms of performance.  This may be a little bit of a "chicken or the egg" deal, but that is how I see it and I've never owned a chocolate, only yellows.  My next one is going to be black or chocolate because I'm tired of trying to hide a yellow dog.


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## meandmydog (Jan 14, 2011)

If your hunting ccut corn fields for geese yellow. swampy bottoms black. my 2 cents. I know just about every dog i see in arkansas is the prefered black dog.


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 14, 2011)

thanks everyone for all the info I got a buddy in thomaston said he got a friend that going to give me a yellow he say's he got papers on it to show she full blooded lab I don't know anything about the family history of I didn't ask to much it's free if she turns out to be good hunting dog then good if not she be a good pet I'm not trying to get one to breeding just one to hunt with


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## DUhollywood1 (Jan 14, 2011)

To sum up this thread........... There has been great dogs of all three colors, black (pirate), choco (roux), yellow (downtown dusty brown) just to name a few! All colors can produce great dogs. Then you come into the thing with pedigree, yes I do believe it is easier to train a dog that has a great pedigree, but yes it will be more expensive for a more known pedigree. My first dog was $50 dollars I got her when I first started duck hunting and I was 16 years old, she turned 8 this december and has hunted in 6 different states and have picked up 1,000's of birds and made one hek of a guide dog. My youngest dog... welll he was expensive, we will leave it at that! He has been a pleasure to train and you can see all the potential in the world in him! What I am saying is that any dog can be trained to what you want him to be! Some maybe easier than other, but you still get out of them what you put in them. Good luck with your dog and I'm 20 min from Rome so pm me with any questions or any time you would want to train with me and my group your more than welcome to.


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## yellingrebel78 (Jan 14, 2011)

DUhollywood1 said:


> To sum up this thread........... There has been great dogs of all three colors, black (pirate), choco (roux), yellow (downtown dusty brown) just to name a few! All colors can produce great dogs. Then you come into the thing with pedigree, yes I do believe it is easier to train a dog that has a great pedigree, but yes it will be more expensive for a more known pedigree. My first dog was $50 dollars I got her when I first started duck hunting and I was 16 years old, she turned 8 this december and has hunted in 6 different states and have picked up 1,000's of birds and made one hek of a guide dog. My youngest dog... welll he was expensive, we will leave it at that! He has been a pleasure to train and you can see all the potential in the world in him! What I am saying is that any dog can be trained to what you want him to be! Some maybe easier than other, but you still get out of them what you put in them. Good luck with your dog and I'm 20 min from Rome so pm me with any questions or any time you would want to train with me and my group your more than welcome to.



thanks brother I may have to hit you up when I need some help this is my first and this was my year hunting next year be my sec.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jan 15, 2011)

Bird Slayer said:


> Thats not what im saying at all. Im simply saying although a good bloodline helps with everything doesnt matter if they are registered or not, if you dont spend time with them then it doesnt matter what kind of bloodline they have.



Again, I agree 100% that pedigree doesn't matter if you don't work with the dog.  That is obvious and beyond debate, but if you weren't saying that bloodlines and pedigrees are not important then what in the world were you saying here:



Bird Slayer said:


> IMHO I dont know what it is about people saying you want a dog with a good bloodline and he has to be registered and all this mess.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Jan 15, 2011)

yellingrebel78 said:


> thanks everyone for all the info I got a buddy in thomaston said he got a friend that going to give me a yellow he say's he got papers on it to show she full blooded lab I don't know anything about the family history of I didn't ask to much it's free if she turns out to be good hunting dog then good if not she be a good pet I'm not trying to get one to breeding just one to hunt with



I strongly suggest that you buy a DVD called "Sound Beginnings of Retriever Training" by Jackie Mertens and then buy and read "Smartworks Vol. 1" by Evan Graham and follow that training program.  If you follow that training program carefully you should have a very nice hunting companion if the dog has the desire to do the job.  Both of these materials can be purchased at www.dogsafield.com and other places as well.

Good luck to you and your dog.


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## bass player (Jan 24, 2011)

HuntinDawg 89,
Was not trying to create a new color class. Just braggin' on my dog a little. Satin black means her coat looks like satin, healthy, black and shinny, comes from always feeding her the best dog food and working her on a regular basis.
And I believe her bloodline has a lot to do with her100 lbs of heart, just another way of saying she has a lot of drive, not that her heart is really that large, lol. 
As far as the book "Water Dog", it's an easy read and an old school book. Kind of like the big note song book for guitar introduction.
I'll check out Smart Works Vol. One and Sound Beginnings of Retriever Training DVD. One thing Jim Tims,(trainer that started my dog), taught me is that we need training too. As trainers have to study and learn as much as we can so we don't screw up a good dog. 
 Thanks for the input and all the good points about hips, eyes,  puppy's back ground and health. It's very important to the future of the breed we love. Black, yellow, or brown.


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## ThunderRoad (Mar 9, 2012)

Black Labs are the best in every way.


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