# What is a believers definition of faith?



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 12, 2013)

Faith is a word that is frequently used on this forum but often with very different meanings by the authors.  I though it would be helpful to all if we 'believers' could provide a working definition that we can point as a standard when we speak of our faith.  To that end I would like to suggests one that I borrowed from a podcast by noted apologist Ravi Zacharias. 

"Faith

Faith is not credulity.  Faith is not believing in that which is not there.  Faith is believing in that which is ultimately real and essential, even though it is not presently totally visible to the human eye.... Whereas credulity is belief in anything, faith is that which is based upon the rationality and reasonableness of that which has already been (partially) revealed.

I like it in that it is not all encompassing to the point it's cumbersome, but it's succinct and concise enough to be easily understood.

What do y'all think?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 12, 2013)

"... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Heb. 11:1


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## Madman (Jun 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Heb. 11:1



^^^ This

Notice ------------- "the EVIDENCE of things not seen."


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 12, 2013)

I knew someone would post that, and there's nothing wrong with that definition other than the fact that it's a definition aimed more toward believers than non-believers.  The Hebrews being addressed were already comfortable with concept of an invisible God with all the attributes we take for granted.  The readers of this forum, as well as today's secular society, represent a much more  ideologically plural group.  I was looking for something aimed more toward them.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I knew someone would post that, and there's nothing wrong with that definition other than the fact that it's a definition aimed more toward believers than non-believers.



Based on the thread title, I thought that's what you were looking for.


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## stringmusic (Jun 12, 2013)

As usual, I'm going to agree with Ravi's definition.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Based on the thread title, I thought that's what you were looking for.



My bad.  I should have been more clear.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 12, 2013)

I believe that faith is the result of sincere belief. I picture a Christian who has jumped out of a plane. Instead of trusting that that parachute will carry him to safety, he is flapping his arms like a bird. He believed it would hold him or else he would not have jumped, yet he is still trying to help God save him. Faith would look more like one who rest his weight on the chute and enjoys the ride


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2013)

AAA forum worthy?????


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 12, 2013)

Faith goes hand in hand with "hope."


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## stringmusic (Jun 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> AAA forum worthy?????





SemperFiDawg said:


> Faith is a word that is frequently used on this forum but often with very different meanings by the authors.  I though it would be helpful to all if we 'believers' could provide a working definition that we can point as a standard when we speak of our faith.



It seems SFD is clarifying a term that gets thrown around in this forum a lot.

So, here's my official stringmusic stamp of approval for the AAA forum.


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2013)

Believers forums are a couple floors up


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Believers forums are a couple floors up



Two points.

1) I suggested this as a specific attempt to help the non-believers in this forum.  See reply to CPF.

2) The third A in AAA forum is the acronym for Apologetics which by definition are believers.


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## stringmusic (Jun 12, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Believers forums are a couple floors up





SemperFiDawg said:


> Faith is a word that is frequently used on this forum but often with very different meanings by the authors.  I though it would be helpful to all if we 'believers' could provide a working definition that we can point as a standard when we speak of our faith.  To that end I would like to suggests one that I borrowed from a podcast by noted apologist Ravi Zacharias.
> 
> "Faith
> 
> ...


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## Hooty Hoot (Jun 12, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Heb. 11:1



Still the best definition


And then there is this one. What you are willing to truly believe when every bone in your body tells you it just ain't so.


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Two points.
> 
> 1) I suggested this as a specific attempt to help the non-believers in this forum.  See reply to CPF.
> 
> 2) The third A in AAA forum is the acronym for Apologetics which by definition are believers.



Apologetics is a way of explaining religious topics in ways that are more in laymens terms or are outside of scripture.

Your not in the apologetics club. Some Carpenters are also believers but we do not talk about framing houses.

Has ANY non-believer asked for "help"?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 12, 2013)

And here's another slant on "faith" according to CS Lewis.

"“Faith, in the sense in which I am here using the word, is the art of holding on to things your reason has once accepted, in spite of your changing moods.”


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## Ronnie T (Jun 12, 2013)

"Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof." - Kahlil Gibran



"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas



"As your faith is strengthened you will find that there is no longer the need to have a sense of control, that things will flow as they will, and that you will flow with them, to your great delight and benefit." - Emmanuel Teney


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2013)

Got Faith? The Connection Between Faith and Theism, Religion, Atheism
Religion & Theism Rely on Faith, but Atheism Doesn't Need To

By Austin Cline

Faith is a subject of much debate not only between atheists and theists, but even among theists themselves. The nature of faith, the value of faith, and the appropriate subjects of faith — if any — are topics of intense disagreement. Atheists frequently argue that it's wrong to believe things on faith while theists argue that not only is faith important, but that atheists also have their own faith. None of these discussions can go anywhere unless we first understand what faith is and is not.

Clear definitions of key terms are always important, but they are especially important when discussing faith because the term can mean very different things depending on context. This creates problems because it's so easy to equivocate about faith, starting an argument with one definition and finishing with another.


Faith as Belief Without Evidence

The first religious sense of faith is a type of belief, specifically belief without clear evidence or knowledge. Christians using the term to describe their beliefs should be using it in the same way as Paul: "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." [Hebrews 11:1] This is the sort of faith Christians often rely upon when confronted with evidence or arguments that would disprove their religious beliefs.

This sort of faith is problematic because if a person really does believe something without evidence, even weak evidence, then they have formed a belief about the state of the world independent of information about the world. Beliefs are supposed to be mental representations about the way the world is but this means beliefs should be dependent upon what we learn about the world; beliefs shouldn't be independent of what we learn about the world.

If a person believes something is true in this sense of "faith," their belief has become separated from facts and reality. Just as evidence plays no role in producing the belief, evidence, reason, and logic can't disprove the belief. A belief that is not dependent on reality also can't be refuted by reality. Perhaps this is part of how it helps people endure the seemingly unendurable in the context of tragedy or suffering. It's also arguably why it's so easy for faith to become a motivation for committing unspeakable crimes.


Faith as Confidence or Trust

The second religious sense of faith is the act of placing trust in someone. It may involve no more than having faith in the words and teachings of religious leaders or it may be faith that God will fulfill promises described in scripture. This sort of faith is arguably more important than the first, but it's one which both theists and atheists tend to ignore in favor of the first. This is a problem because so much of what believers say about faith only makes sense in the context of this sense.

For one thing, faith is treated as a moral duty, but it's incoherent to treat any belief as a "moral duty." In contrast, having faith in a person who deserves it is a legitimate moral duty while denying faith to someone is an insult. Having faith in a person is a statement of confidence and trust while refusing to have faith is a statement of distrust. Faith is thus the most important Christian virtue not because believing that God exists is so important, but rather because trusting God is so important. It's not mere belief in the existence of God which takes a person to heaven, but trust in God (and Jesus).

Closely connected to this is the treatment of atheists as immoral merely for being atheists. It is taken for granted that atheists actually know that God exists because everyone knows this — the evidence is unambiguous and everyone is without excuse — so one has "faith" that God will be honorable, not that God exists. This is why atheists are so immoral: they are lying about what they believe and in the process are denying that God deserves our trust, allegiance, and loyalty.


Do Atheists Have Faith?

Claims that atheists have faith just like religious theists usually commit the fallacy of equivocation and that's why atheists vehemently dispute it. Everyone believes some things on meager or inadequate evidence, but atheists don't typically disbelieve in gods on "faith" in the sense of not having any evidence whatsoever. The sort of "faith" which apologists try to bring in here is usually just belief that falls short of absolute certainty, a confidence based on past performance. This is not "the substance of things hoped or" or "evidence of things unseen."

Faith as trust, however, is something that atheists have — as do all other human beings. Personal relationships and society as a whole wouldn't function without it and some institutions, like money and banking, depend entirely upon faith. It can be argued that this sort of faith is the foundation of human relationships because it creates the moral and social obligations which bind people together. It's rare to completely lack any faith in a person, even one who has proven to be generally untrustworthy.

By the same token, though, this sort of faith can only exist between sentient beings capable of understanding and agreeing to such obligations. You can't have this sort of faith in inanimate objects like a car, in systems like science, or even in non-sentient beings like goldfish. You can make assumptions about future behavior or place bets on future outcomes, but not have faith in the sense of investing personal trust in moral reliability.

This means that the moral virtue of Christian faith depends entirely on the Christian god existing. If no gods exist, there is nothing virtuous about trusting in any gods and there is nothing immoral about not trusting in any gods. In a godless universe, atheism isn't a vice or sin because there are no gods to whom we owe any allegiance or trust. Since faith as belief without evidence is neither legitimate nor a moral issue, we come back to the obligation of believers to provide sound reasons to think their god exists. In the absence of such reasons, atheists' disbelief in gods is neither intellectually nor morally problematic.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 12, 2013)

I'm always intrigued at an atheists 'attempt' to fully and logically explain a Christian's faith.


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## drippin' rock (Jun 12, 2013)

I don't think words like *reason* and *evidence* should be used in the same sentence as *faith*.


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm always intrigued at an atheists 'attempt' to fully and logically explain a Christian's faith.



now ya know how it feels when the "attempt" is on the other foot.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Apologetics is a way of explaining



Bingo!


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bingo!



And which non believer asked for a faith explanation?
or
Are you taking advantage of the 3rd A and using it to rattle off a sermon?


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## stringmusic (Jun 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And which non believer asked for a faith explanation?
> or
> Are you taking advantage of the 3rd A and using it to rattle off a sermon?



Why are you continually insisting that this thread doesn't belong in here? SFD has clarified a definition to a word that gets used in this forum all the time. I don't see a problem with that.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Why are you continually insisting that this thread doesn't belong in here? SFD has clarified a definition to a word that gets used in this forum all the time. I don't see a problem with that.



SFD also claimed he did it to "help" the non-believers. NOBODY asked for that help.
I think I might be the only non believer to respond to the thread because it was an AMEN and Alleluia fest up until that point that belongs in a spot where like minded individuals can talk about their faith. Almost spot on for a forum up above.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 13, 2013)

I can somewhat agree BH... but who cares....


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I can somewhat agree BH... but who cares....



SFD wants to define words as used by him so that they fit in for his conversations. He has abruptly ended conversations with a few of us because we did not follow his line of thought.
Nobody, especially a non believer, asked "what Is faith and how should we use it when talking to a believer". So saying it was done to help the non believers is just a cover to rattle off a sermon on faith.
I countered with a definition of my own and was met with how Ronny T is intrigued at an atheists 'attempt' to fully and logically explain a Christian's faith.
I wonder if anyone thought about how "intrigued" the non believers were to have been "helped" to understand what and I think more specifically HOW faith is to be defined and used.?.?.?


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## stringmusic (Jun 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> SFD also claimed he did it to "help" the non-believers. NOBODY asked for that help.
> I think I might be the only non believer to respond to the thread because it was an AMEN and Alleluia fest up until that point that belongs in a spot where like minded individuals can talk about their faith. Almost spot on for a forum up above.



You know what? You're right. Let's not clarify definitions any longer in this forum.....


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## stringmusic (Jun 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> SFD wants to define words as used by him so that they fit in for his conversations. He has abruptly ended conversations with a few of us because we did not follow his line of thought.
> Nobody, especially a non believer, asked "what Is faith and how should we use it when talking to a believer". So saying it was done to help the non believers is just a cover to rattle off a sermon on faith.
> I countered with a definition of my own and was met with how Ronny T is intrigued at an atheists 'attempt' to fully and logically explain a Christian's faith.
> I wonder if anyone thought about how "intrigued" the non believers were to have been "helped" to understand what and I think more specifically HOW faith is to be defined and used.?.?.?



When people have conversations, it's good to have an accepted, and at least for conversation sake, agreed upon definition of certian words. It helps the conversation flow a little easier.

You seem to be so bent on hating everything religious that you can't see that a working defintion of faith, which is discussed all the time in here, is a good thing to help get points across, both from the believer and the non believer.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 13, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> When people have conversations, it's good to have an accepted, and at least for conversation sake, agreed upon definition of certian words.



I don't think agreed upon or accepted is going to happen. The best we can hope for is understood usage.


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## stringmusic (Jun 13, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't think agreed upon or accepted is going to happen. The best we can hope for is understood usage.



However you want to put the term is fine by me.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> SFD also claimed he did it to "help" the non-believers. NOBODY asked for that help.
> I think I might be the only non believer to respond to the thread because it was an AMEN and Alleluia fest up until that point that belongs in a spot where like minded individuals can talk about their faith. Almost spot on for a forum up above.



Bullet are you really that upset that I am attempting to reach a tentative consensus from believers on a definition of faith?   Could it be that what really upsets you is that maybe you feel it will somehow limit your stereotyping of us as a bunch of idiots whose belief rests on nothing but blind, unfounded, illogical, and unreasonable goobly goop.
I've got more FAITH in you than that.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't think agreed upon or accepted is going to happen. The best we can hope for is understood usage.



And that would be fine with me.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 13, 2013)

You can define what faith means in any way. And I can see that it could be useful that it's static and all of us know what it should be referring to every time you use it.. it's still unreasonable goobly goop


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Bullet are you really that upset that I am attempting to reach a tentative consensus from believers on a definition of faith?   Could it be that what really upsets you is that maybe you feel it will somehow limit your stereotyping of us as a bunch of idiots whose belief rests on nothing but blind, unfounded, illogical, and unreasonable goobly goop.
> I've got more FAITH in you than that.



I don't get upset over things of this nature.
I am pointing out that you initially said it was to help non-believers and now you are saying it is  an attempt to reach a tentative consensus from believers on a definition of faith.
By definition:


> Spiritual Discussions and Study (6 Viewing)
> Need questions answered, want to get involved with a study group or maybe just want a little clarification? This is the place for you.


That place seems to be the BEST place for believers to reach a tentative consensus. IE: Clarification

Quoting the Rev and Bible verses is your(and believers) accepted definition faith.
I/us/we are and have been aware of those definitions. What I am trying to do is not limit myself to the parameters that only a few want to play in. As soon as I posted another version of Faith it was immediately commented on in a way that sounded to me was unacceptable. People forget that many atheists were once just as Christian as anybody else claims to be so we know a little bit about Christian faith. Both fully and logically.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> When people have conversations, it's good to have an accepted, and at least for conversation sake, agreed upon definition of certian words. It helps the conversation flow a little easier.
> 
> You seem to be so bent on hating everything religious that you can't see that a working defintion of faith, which is discussed all the time in here, is a good thing to help get points across, both from the believer and the non believer.



I don't hate anything religious. I just try to keep discussions where they belong.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 13, 2013)

BH... I think the intention was so that we don't need to go back and forth about faith all the time... because their version of faith would be fully outlined here. So it was to help keep conversations on topic... Maybe not helpful, but relevant. 

By maybe not helpful, I mean that there are differing views of faith across believers I'm sure. I have no doubt that someone could read some of these and say, yeah... not really... ... and if a consensus could be reached, it would probably be more detrimental after being referring to next month in a completely different way elsewhere..


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## Ronnie T (Jun 13, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> "Faith is a knowledge within the heart, beyond the reach of proof." - Kahlil Gibran
> 
> 
> "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." - St. Thomas Aquinas
> ...



The above statements pretty well explain all the elements of Christian faith, without the use of scriptures.

And these statements of definition can be applied to any firmly held faith.  But,............. this faith (our faith) goes far beyond most other forms of faith.  Our faith, true faith, never diminishes.

I have faith the light bulb will come on when I flip the switch.  I've done it a million times, so I have faith that it will now!!!!!   But, I also realize that the bulb could be blown this time and it actually might not work.
......... Not the case with my Christian faith.  The bulb never blows, even if it appears it has.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I don't get upset over things of this nature.
> I am pointing out that you initially said it was to help non-believers and now you are saying it is  an attempt to reach a tentative consensus from believers on a definition of faith.


.........in order to help non believers understand what we mean by faith




bullethead said:


> IBy definition:
> 
> That place seems to be the BEST place for believers to reach a tentative consensus. IE: Clarification



Listen.  If you feel that strongly about it then discuss it with the Mods.  I'll respect whatever decision they make.



bullethead said:


> IQuoting the Rev and Bible verses is your(and believers) accepted definition faith.
> I/us/we are and have been aware of those definitions. What I am trying to do is not limit myself to the parameters that only a few want to play in. As soon as I posted another version of Faith it was immediately commented on in a way that sounded to me was unacceptable. People forget that many atheists were once just as Christian as anybody else claims to be so we know a little bit about Christian faith. Both fully and logically.



So what are you upset about; That no one liked your definition or that others won't let you define their terms and ideas for them?


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> .........in order to help non believers understand what we mean by faith
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Me No Upset Kemosabe..........


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## Ronnie T (Jun 13, 2013)

I believe this thread should focus on the subject matter rather than forum management.
.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 14, 2013)

So, SFD. Please take everyone's suggestions/additions and give us one encompassing definition, or list of definitions that the rest of the folks can "like" with approval.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2013)

Faith-Faith is not credulity. Faith is not believing in that which is not there. Faith is believing in that which is ultimately real and essential, even though it is not presently totally understood. Whereas credulity is belief in anything, faith is that which is based upon the rationality and reasonableness of that which has already been partially revealed and understood.


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Faith-Faith is not credulity. Faith is not believing in that which is not there. Faith is believing in that which is ultimately real and essential, even though it is not presently totally understood. Whereas credulity is belief in anything, faith is that which is based upon the rationality and reasonableness of that which has already been partially revealed and understood.



Then for believers, that backs up that there must be more gods than just one because so many other people on the planet have that exact same faith for other deities.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Then for believers, that backs up that there must be more gods than just one because so many other people on the planet have that exact same faith for other deities.



That's one possible explanation, but certainly not the only one, nor may i suggest the most prevalent one.


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's one possible explanation, but certainly not the only one, nor may i suggest the most prevalent one.



Let me guess, YOURS is the "most" prevalent??? What are the odds?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Let me guess, YOURS is the "most" prevalent??? What are the odds?




That probably deserves its own thread.  I would like to keep this one on topic.


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## drippin' rock (Jun 14, 2013)

If there is evidence, why the need for faith?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2013)

Faith is based on the evidence, not in lieu of it.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 14, 2013)

Instead of using various peoples quotes and opinions on what faith means why not just use the actual dictionary definition of the word faith?
faith (fth)
n.
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. 
3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
4. often Faith Christianity The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
5. The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
6. A set of principles or beliefs.
Seems pretty straightforward and easily understood by believer and non-believer and doesn't leave a whole lot of room for opinion or twisting of the word to suit anybodys needs?


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Instead of using various peoples quotes and opinions on what faith means why not just use the actual dictionary definition of the word faith?
> faith (fth)
> n.
> 1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
> ...



Exactly


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Instead of using various peoples quotes and opinions on what faith means why not just use the actual dictionary definition of the word faith?



If I am discussing my biblical worldview and obtain definitions outside of the Bible, I would just be discussing another unbiblical worldview.


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> If I am discussing my biblical worldview and obtain definitions outside of the Bible, I would just be discussing another unbiblical worldview.



There is nothing wrong with using a biblical worldview when and where biblical worldviews are accepted as the norm.
Here, as you know, much of the discussion is beyond biblical worldviews/definitions because many of the posters do not adhere to those views. Expecting non believers to adhere to believers terms to "load" a conversation is why we are here in the first place.......a spot where non believers can and prefer to use non biblical terms to try to hold discussions without the...well... biblical.
That is not saying you can't or shouldn't use the biblical terms....that is not saying they should go in another forum....what it is saying is don't be surprised or upset if some people do not stick to using those same definitions in conversation.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jun 14, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "... faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." - Heb. 11:1



I was thinking the same thing.  

Faith is the physical manifestation of the things I hope for.... 

Salvation for my family. An eternity with God in a perfect place.  Seeing my grandparents and loved ones again one day.  These are all things I hope for, and believe I will receive every one of them.

Faith is believing in something I haven't yet seen, but have the confidence that one day, I will see.  

As one friend said, Faith is knowing way down deep in my knower, that God will fulfill all his promises.


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> There is nothing wrong with using a biblical worldview when and where biblical worldviews are accepted as the norm.
> Here, as you know, much of the discussion is beyond biblical worldviews/definitions because many of the posters do not adhere to those views. Expecting non believers to adhere to believers terms to "load" a conversation is why we are here in the first place.......a spot where non believers can and prefer to use non biblical terms to try to hold discussions without the...well... biblical.
> That is not saying you can't or shouldn't use the biblical terms....that is not saying they should go in another forum....what it is saying is don't be surprised or upset if some people do not stick to using those same definitions in conversation.


I understand. When I am having a conversation with an atheist, I do not agree to unbiblical definitions or allow him to remove God from the discussion. If I did allow it, it would just be two atheist conversing.


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## bullethead (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand. When I am having a conversation with an atheist, I do not agree to unbiblical definitions or allow him to remove God from the discussion. If I did allow it, it would just be two atheist conversing.



I hear you. I have experienced the same sort of thing at comic book conventions that I do with religious discussions. Unless you pretend to take the fake stuff seriously you can't hold a serious conversation with them either. Insert Big Grin Here

Just ribbing you Gem. Take care and have a Happy Father's Day


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## WaltL1 (Jun 14, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand. When I am having a conversation with an atheist, I do not agree to unbiblical definitions or allow him to remove God from the discussion. If I did allow it, it would just be two atheist conversing.


Do you consider the above quotes by CS Lewis, Ravi Zacharias, personal opinions by other believers etc. to be biblical definitions?
If not why are you "allowing" those? Or does that only apply to who you perceive to be an Atheist?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 14, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I hear you. I have experienced the same sort of thing at comic book conventions that I do with religious discussions. Unless you pretend to take the fake stuff seriously you can't hold a serious conversation with them either. Insert Big Grin Here
> 
> Just ribbing you Gem. Take care and have a Happy Father's Day



I'll have to take your word for it on the conventions. 

Don't tell me what kind of Father's Day to have!


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## Theodore981 (Jun 15, 2013)

The word "faith" is often a misnomer, and folks who are not intellectually dishonest would really say "hope" instead.

Just like how people say "Christian", when they really mean "religious".  Very distinct difference there.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I understand. When I am having a conversation with an atheist, I do not agree to unbiblical definitions or allow him to remove God from the discussion. If I did allow it, it would just be two atheist conversing.





WaltL1 said:


> Do you consider the above quotes by CS Lewis, Ravi Zacharias, personal opinions by other believers etc. to be biblical definitions?
> If not why are you "allowing" those? Or does that only apply to who you perceive to be an Atheist?



I'm the one who posted those quotes.  Those were "my" attempt to post unbiblical examples of how I see faith in my personal Christian life, and how it flourishes in other Christian's lives.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 15, 2013)

I'm hoping this is helpful to all. It is from Wiki and concerns Joseph Campbell the scolar.

Quote:"Follow your bliss"


One of Campbell's most identifiable, most quoted and arguably most misunderstood sayings was his admonition to "follow your bliss." He derived this idea from the Upanishads:
 Now, I came to this idea of bliss because in Sanskrit, which is the great spiritual language of the world, there are three terms that represent the brink, the jumping-off place to the ocean of transcendence: Sat-Chit-Ananda. The word "Sat" means being. "Chit" means consciousness. "Ananda" means bliss or rapture. I thought, "I don't know whether my consciousness is proper consciousness or not; I don't know whether what I know of my being is my proper being or not; but I do know where my rapture is. So let me hang on to rapture, and that will bring me both my consciousness and my being." I think it worked.[50] 
He saw this not merely as a mantra, but as a helpful guide to the individual along the hero journey that each of us walks through life:
 If you follow your bliss, you put yourself on a kind of track that has been there all the while, waiting for you, and the life that you ought to be living is the one you are living. Wherever you are—if you are following your bliss, you are enjoying that refreshment, that life within you, all the time.[51] 
Campbell began sharing this idea with students during his lectures in the 1970s. By the time that The Power of Myth was aired in 1988, six months following Campbell's death, "Follow your bliss" was a philosophy that resonated deeply with the American public—both religious and secular.[52]

During his later years, when some students took him to be encouraging hedonism, Campbell is reported to have grumbled, "I should have said, 'Follow your blisters." End Quote.


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