# Creating Transgendered Persimmon Trees: Updated 14 months later



## NCHillbilly

My property down on the SC/GA line and my friend's nearby farm both have scads of male persimmon saplings growing all over the place. Since they are males, they don't produce fruit. They are just slackers that stand around drinking beer and talking about football and sucking up water and nutrients and photosynthesizing up all the sunlight.

So, back in the winter, I cut a bunch of scion wood from some Meader and Yates persimmon trees. Those are both heavy-bearing female American persimmon cultivars. Last weekend, we went and topwork grafted my scion wood onto a bunch of the male saplings. This is the first time I've tried bark grafting on bigger rootstock, hopefully most or at least some will take. I'll update the next time I get down there to see if it worked.


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## Crakajak

Looks like that will work . You going the register them with the name of catlyn or bruce persimmon?


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## BuckNasty83

Should work.  Been researching about that a lot lately


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## PappyHoel

Are you going to make special accommodations for them in the garden?


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## NCHillbilly

PappyHoel said:


> Are you going to make special accommodations for them in the garden?



I hope I don't have to put in another bathroom.


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## PappyHoel

NCHillbilly said:


> I hope I don't have to put in another bathroom.



Me too 

Actually pretty cool what you've done there.  I look forward to your updates.


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## NCHillbilly

PappyHoel said:


> Me too
> 
> Actually pretty cool what you've done there.  I look forward to your updates.



I hope that I have a reason to post updates.


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## fireman32

Are the bloom times a critical part on these like pear trees or do most persimmons bud out at the same time?


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## NCHillbilly

fireman32 said:


> Are the bloom times a critical part on these like pear trees or do most persimmons bud out at the same time?



Not sure what you're asking, exactly. If you're talking about timing of grafting, the window for bark grafting on persimmons isn't critical, as long as the scion wood is dormant and the rootstock is budded/leafed out enough so that the sap is flowing and the bark will slip. I think warmer temps help the graft union to callous over and heal quicker than it would a little earlier in the year.


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## Jeff C.

Never have really attempted actual grafting. I have taped up existing broken/torn limbs and successfully repaired them. It will be interesting to see the results, lookin forward to success.


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## Milkman

I hope it works for you. I tried this a couple of times about 30 years ago with no luck. But it was my first and only attempts at grafting. 

I bet yours will work


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## tree cutter 08

Looks good! Was going to do some myself this year but didn't get around to it. Keep us posted.


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## shakey gizzard

That's a mighty hard prune! Did ya do any with more male branches on em? Should be neat to see what takes and what don't.


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## fireman32

NCHillbilly said:


> Not sure what you're asking, exactly. If you're talking about timing of grafting, the window for bark grafting on persimmons isn't critical, as long as the scion wood is dormant and the rootstock is budded/leafed out enough so that the sap is flowing and the bark will slip. I think warmer temps help the graft union to callous over and heal quicker than it would a little earlier in the year.



Close, was just wondering if the grafted tree would bloom at the same time as the non grafted tree.  I'm not familiar with persimmon varieties or their bloom times.  
With pears and I believe apples, certain varieties bloom at different times so certain ones won't cross pollinate due to bloom timing.  Or maybe it's a non-issue with persimmons.


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## NCHillbilly

fireman32 said:


> Close, was just wondering if the grafted tree would bloom at the same time as the non grafted tree.  I'm not familiar with persimmon varieties or their bloom times.
> With pears and I believe apples, certain varieties bloom at different times so certain ones won't cross pollinate due to bloom timing.  Or maybe it's a non-issue with persimmons.



The cultivars seem to bloom around the same time as the wild ones. The Meader cultivar is mostly self-fertile, anyway.


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## Triple C

Hillbilly...That'll work!  Had a buddy to teach me to graft apples trees this year for the 1st time and was surprised at how easy it was.  Seen many pics of guys that did just what you did with good results.

Got a rogue bradford pear growing in the edge of one of our fields.  My grafting buddy tells me to cut scions from one of my good pears and graft it to the bradford next spring.  Says he's done it many times so I'm gonna give that a go next year.  Post pics as that thing starts to grow.


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## mattech

I've been seeing alot of this lately. Does the grafting make the whole tree produce fruit or only the limbs that have been grafted?


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## NCHillbilly

mattech said:


> I've been seeing alot of this lately. Does the grafting make the whole tree produce fruit or only the limbs that have been grafted?



The grafted scion will grow to replace the whole top of the tree-all that's left of the original tree is the stump. Everything above the graft union will produce fruit. You keep anything that sprouts below the graft union cut off.


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## j_seph

NCHillbilly said:


> My property down on the SC/GA line and my friend's nearby farm both have scads of male persimmon saplings growing all over the place. Since they are males, they don't produce fruit. They are just slackers that stand around drinking beer and talking about football and sucking up water and nutrients and photosynthesizing up all the sunlight.
> 
> So, back in the winter, I cut a bunch of scion wood from some Meader and Yates persimmon trees. Those are both heavy-bearing female American persimmon cultivars. Last weekend, we went and topwork grafted my scion wood onto a bunch of the male saplings. This is the first time I've tried bark grafting on bigger rootstock, hopefully most or at least some will take. I'll update the next time I get down there to see if it worked.


Glad the government approved transgenders for ya
Hope this works out, Just posting to keep tabs on progress


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## mattech

NCHillbilly said:


> The grafted scion will grow to replace the whole top of the tree-all that's left of the original tree is the stump. Everything above the graft union will produce fruit. You keep anything that sprouts below the graft union cut off.



So, if you kept any original limbs on the tree could it self pollenate?


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## NCHillbilly

mattech said:


> So, if you kept any original limbs on the tree could it self pollenate?



Yes, but there are loads of male persimmons around there anyway. And the Meader cultivar is mostly self-fertile. It will bear fruit without being pollinated by another tree, but they usually won't have seeds in them.


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## mattech

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes, but there are loads of male persimmons around there anyway. And the Meader cultivar is mostly self-fertile. It will bear fruit without being pollinated by another tree, but they usually won't have seeds in them.



Very cool. Any way to know gender beside seeing fruit?


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## NCHillbilly

mattech said:


> Very cool. Any way to know gender beside seeing fruit?



You can tell by the flowers. Male trees will have clusters of flowers, they are single on female trees.


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## NCHillbilly

Update:

Looks like almost all of them are starting to take and grow. Here are some shots of a few that my buddy down there sent me when he checked them a couple days ago.  I did a few peach and mulberries around home that are looking good, too.


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## pine nut

I'm curious... You indicated the scions are dormant and the rootstock is budding.  Does this mean you cut the scions earlier and have somehow kept them dormant while waiting on the rootstock to bud, and if so, how?   By refrigeration of scions?


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## Forest Grump

pine nut said:


> I'm curious... You indicated the scions are dormant and the rootstock is budding.  Does this mean you cut the scions earlier and have somehow kept them dormant while waiting on the rootstock to bud, and if so, how?   By refrigeration of scions?



Yes, you collect scion wood while dormant & put it in the fridge in a plastic bag with a moist paper towel until the bud wood is leafing out & the sap is flowing well so the graft will take. Check it every now & again in the fridge & if it is moldy swap out the towel for a new one. If you try to graft while both are dormant there is a much greater chance of failure, because the graft dries out. Paraffin film like he used really helps preserve moisture in the graft (but I have used wax from a ring you seal a toilet to the floor with). If you wait too late the graft may not harden off before winter.


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## Jeff C.

So far so good, HillBilly.


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## mattech

Pretty cool


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## NCHillbilly

pine nut said:


> I'm curious... You indicated the scions are dormant and the rootstock is budding.  Does this mean you cut the scions earlier and have somehow kept them dormant while waiting on the rootstock to bud, and if so, how?   By refrigeration of scions?



Yep, what FG said. I cut the scion wood in early March, and keep it in the fridge.


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## NCHillbilly

Forest Grump said:


> Yes, you collect scion wood while dormant & put it in the fridge in a plastic bag with a moist paper towel until the bud wood is leafing out & the sap is flowing well so the graft will take. Check it every now & again in the fridge & if it is moldy swap out the towel for a new one. If you try to graft while both are dormant there is a much greater chance of failure, because the graft dries out. Paraffin film like he used really helps preserve moisture in the graft (but I have used wax from a ring you seal a toilet to the floor with). If you wait too late the graft may not harden off before winter.



This is the first time that I've used the parafilm, and I've been pretty impressed. I also used latex caulk to seal the cut surfaces and around the ends of the film. 

The parafilm is already starting to biodegrade after a month; but there seems to be a good callous on the grafts, so it probably stayed long enough. Maybe next year I'll double-wrap it.


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## pine nut

Thanks for that info guys.  I had thought about trying that grafting before but had not seen that mentioned before or didn't take note of it.  At least if I try it now I'll be better informed!  Thanks!


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## NCHillbilly

Here is the same tree in the original pic a month and a half later. Growing nicely. 



Here is another one that I did at the same time-this one is a transgendered mulberry. I grafted scions from an Illinois Everbearing onto a wild male red mulberry seedling. The longest shoot is about a foot long now.



Hoping to get some good growth by fall.


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## ucfireman

I need to learn your techniques. I have  couple of apples Id like to graft on crab stock and would like to try the persimmon. 
Looks good, hope they continue.


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## Clifton Hicks

I'll be doing the same one of these winters. Nice work.


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## NCHillbilly

From what I've seen so far, looks like I got about 90+% of takes with the bark grafting.


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## PappyHoel

That's pretty cool.


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## davidhelmly

This is a very interesting thread, I will definitely be keeping up with it. I hope they turn out good for you, any guess at how many years it will be before they bear fruit?


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## NCHillbilly

davidhelmly said:


> This is a very interesting thread, I will definitely be keeping up with it. I hope they turn out good for you, any guess at how many years it will be before they bear fruit?



Some of the new growth was already developing fruit this year that I had to pinch off to keep them growing.


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## NCHillbilly

Two and a half months later, I've got shoots 4 and 5 feet long on some of them. Growing like weeds.


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## Crakajak

Looks like you are going to be very successful with the grafting. Congrats.


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## NCHillbilly

Crakajak said:


> Looks like you are going to be very successful with the grafting. Congrats.



I grafted about 15 persimmons, and only had one that didn't take. And it looked like some critter had bumped it and knocked the graft loose before it had a chance to take hold.


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## Crakajak

NCHillbilly said:


> I grafted about 15 persimmons, and only had one that didn't take. And it looked like some critter had bumped it and knocked the graft loose before it had a chance to take hold.



Put a camera on them so we can finally see a picture of a sasquatch or black panther..We all know they both live up in your neck of the woods.


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## NCHillbilly

Almost a year later update:

Went and did some pruning on the grafted trees last weekend. Most of them put on several feet of growth last year. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see some fruit on some of them this year. It's almost time to start grafting again. 

Here are two pics of the same tree-mid-May last year a few weeks after grafting, and last weekend after pruning over half of the new growth off of it:


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## ucfireman

The second pic is nice to see. I thought you were doing the grafting to small seedlings not larger trees. I  might buy some seedlings from the GFS and try to graft some buds to them so I can be sure I get fruit. But I have no experience grafting.


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## NCHillbilly

They need to be about pinky-sized or bigger to bark graft. Bark grafting is the only way to go, IMO. Google "bark grafting persimmons" and there are several good videos and pages out there that will show you how. The main thing is to cut your scion wood while it's still dormant and keep it in the fridge, then graft after the rootstock trees leaf out.


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## ddgarcia

Look'n goot Billy from da hill.

Any chance when they bloom, if they haven't already, you could post some pictures of the blooms so we could see the difference? Would be appreciated mucho much as I am going to try to start from some seed and would like to transgender some to not be sexist. Or at least any more so than I already am. Thanks


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## ucfireman

To any one with experience, Can you root persimmon from cuttings? I have good success with figs and roses but haven't tried "woody plants". I did try a couple apples and pears a week or 2 ago (still waiting) but want to try persimmons. I have rooting hormone but just dont want to waste time and effort if they wont root.


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## NCHillbilly

ddgarcia said:


> Look'n goot Billy from da hill.
> 
> Any chance when they bloom, if they haven't already, you could post some pictures of the blooms so we could see the difference? Would be appreciated mucho much as I am going to try to start from some seed and would like to transgender some to not be sexist. Or at least any more so than I already am. Thanks



Male flowers will be in clusters. Female flowers are single.


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## NCHillbilly

ucfireman said:


> To any one with experience, Can you root persimmon from cuttings? I have good success with figs and roses but haven't tried "woody plants". I did try a couple apples and pears a week or 2 ago (still waiting) but want to try persimmons. I have rooting hormone but just dont want to waste time and effort if they wont root.



Persimmons are tough to root. If you have Rootone and a mist system, you might get some rooted from semi-hardwood cuttings, but you won't get many. I think grafting male seedlings is the best way to get good persimmons. We grafted about 70 more last weekend.


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## Forest Grump

NCHillbilly said:


> Persimmons are tough to root. If you have Rootone and a mist system, you might get some rooted from semi-hardwood cuttings, but you won't get many. I think grafting male seedlings is the best way to get good persimmons. We grafted about 70 more last weekend.



Agreed! Rooting cuttings is NOT an efficient way to get more persimmons. Persimmons take grafts probably easier that most any other fruit trees. And they run a deep tap root. 

If you are in the woods now, look at your persimmon trees: ones with bigger, individual flowers, spread apart, are girls. Boys have stems with clusters of smaller flowers strung along the stem. If in doubt, visit them later; only girls have fruit: flag them & in Winter you’ll know who’s who...


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## ucfireman

My problem is I only know of 2 persimmons on my property. And both are female. I am not aware of any males but I do get a decent crop every year so they must be around. I know where a bunch of females are close by, that's why I was thinking cuttings. 
I guess Ill buy some from Forestry and plant them and then try grafting.


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## NCHillbilly

ucfireman said:


> My problem is I only know of 2 persimmons on my property. And both are female. I am not aware of any males but I do get a decent crop every year so they must be around. I know where a bunch of females are close by, that's why I was thinking cuttings.
> I guess Ill buy some from Forestry and plant them and then try grafting.



That's unusual. Usually you have about 100 males for every female.  

We did a bunch more grafting last weekend. Persimmons, mulberries, turning Bradford pear seedlings into fruiting pears, etc. We even tried grafting some sawtooth oak scions onto water oak saplings. We'll see how that turns out.

I noticed that a couple of the bigger persimmons I grafted last year were blooming. May get some fruit this year off last year's grafts!


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## NCHillbilly

Checked some this week, here is a representative one: It's about ten feet tall now with about a 1" trunk, and already has a bunch of green persimmons on it fourteen months after grafting. It's the same one as this pic. Pretty amazing at the growth:



I'm really surprised how much faster the grafts have grown than planted trees. I planted three Meader persimmons last year at the same time I grafted these, and the grafted ones have grown 7-8 times as much as the planted ones.


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## Crakajak

NCHillbilly said:


> Checked some this week, here is a representative one: It's about ten feet tall now with about a 1" trunk, and already has a bunch of green persimmons on it fourteen months after grafting. It's the same one in the first post on this thread. Pretty amazing.
> 
> I'm really surprised how much faster the grafts have grown than planted trees. I planted three Meader persimmons last year at the same time I grafted these, and the grafted ones have grown 7-8 times as much as the planted ones.
> 
> View attachment 934139
> 
> View attachment 934140


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## Forest Grump

Triple C said:


> Hillbilly...That'll work!  Had a buddy to teach me to graft apples trees this year for the 1st time and was surprised at how easy it was.  Seen many pics of guys that did just what you did with good results.
> 
> Got a rogue bradford pear growing in the edge of one of our fields.  My grafting buddy tells me to cut scions from one of my good pears and graft it to the bradford next spring.  Says he's done it many times so I'm gonna give that a go next year.  Post pics as that thing starts to grow.



One thing about those for you to be aware of: Bradford seedlings are _*very*_ vigorous, so if you top them, it is vital that you check often & remove the Bradford bud sprouts that compete with your graft. 

This is important with persimmons too, but with thorny, wild pear seedlings the dormant buds that activate around your graft will be super vigorous & overwhelm your graft & starve it if you don’t keep them cut until your graft is dominant.


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## NCHillbilly

Forest Grump said:


> One thing about those for you to be aware of: Bradford seedlings are _*very*_ vigorous, so if you top them, it is vital that you check often & remove the Bradford bud sprouts that compete with your graft.
> 
> This is important with persimmons too, but with thorny, wild pear seedlings the dormant buds that activate around your graft will be super vigorous & overwhelm your graft & starve it if you don’t keep them cut until your graft is dominant.


Yep. We grafted some pears onto wild seedlings this spring, and they are very sprouty. Another weird thing I tried was grafting sawtooth oak onto water oak. I'm interested to see how that works.


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## SCDAWG

I grafted several persimmons this spring and they are doing very well! I wrapped them in parafilm and also wrapped the bases in electrical tape to help secure the scions. Should I remove the electrical tape at some time to prevent girdling?


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## NCHillbilly

Yes, I'd remove it when they get established. I've never used the tape, I just use parafilm and have had no issues.


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## antharper

Thought I’d bump this as it’s very interesting , I’m about to take your advice and do a google search and try to learn more, hillbilly what is the biggest tree you’ve cut down and grafted I have some males as big as your leg and do u just take your cutting at the rt time and put it against the trunk and wrap it with the parafilm or do u remove the bark and what do u put on top of the tree u cut down, sorry for all the questions, but I’m definitely gonna try this, this year


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## SRShunter

NCHillbilly said:


> Checked some this week, here is a representative one: It's about ten feet tall now with about a 1" trunk, and already has a bunch of green persimmons on it fourteen months after grafting. It's the same one as this pic. Pretty amazing at the growth:
> 
> View attachment 934202
> 
> I'm really surprised how much faster the grafts have grown than planted trees. I planted three Meader persimmons last year at the same time I grafted these, and the grafted ones have grown 7-8 times as much as the planted ones.
> 
> View attachment 934139
> 
> View attachment 934140


Guess having a well established undisturbed root system works wonders? I have never grafted anything but makes sense


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## NCHillbilly

antharper said:


> Thought I’d bump this as it’s very interesting , I’m about to take your advice and do a google search and try to learn more, hillbilly what is the biggest tree you’ve cut down and grafted I have some males as big as your leg and do u just take your cutting at the rt time and put it against the trunk and wrap it with the parafilm or do u remove the bark and what do u put on top of the tree u cut down, sorry for all the questions, but I’m definitely gonna try this, this year


The biggest ones I've grafted so far have been about 3" diameter, maybe 4". Once they get big enough so that the bark gets rough, they're really hard to do. 

In order to get grafts to take, you have to keep the cambium layers of the rootstock and scion in contact. That, and timing and not letting anything dry out at all are the keys. What I have been doing with the persimmons is bark grafting. You cut the scion wood in the winter when it's dormant and keep it in the refrigerator to keep it dormant. Then, you wait until the rootstock is fully leafed out and the sap flowing, so that the bark will sli[. You saw the rootstock off, then carefully make a vertical cut a couple inches long and seperate the bark from the wood. Then you cut the base of the scion in a wedge shape, and force it between the bark and wood, then wrap it. You need to apply something to the wound to keep it from drying out. Grafting wax or non-silicone caulking work well.  

There are several bark-grafting videos on Youtube, a video is worth a thousand words.


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## antharper

NCHillbilly said:


> The biggest ones I've grafted so far have been about 3" diameter, maybe 4". Once they get big enough so that the bark gets rough, they're really hard to do.
> 
> In order to get grafts to take, you have to keep the cambium layers of the rootstock and scion in contact. That, and timing and not letting anything dry out at all are the keys. What I have been doing with the persimmons is bark grafting. You cut the scion wood in the winter when it's dormant and keep it in the refrigerator to keep it dormant. Then, you wait until the rootstock is fully leafed out and the sap flowing, so that the bark will sli[. You saw the rootstock off, then carefully make a vertical cut a couple inches long and seperate the bark from the wood. Then you cut the base of the scion in a wedge shape, and force it between the bark and wood, then wrap it. You need to apply something to the wound to keep it from drying out. Grafting wax or non-silicone caulking work well.
> 
> There are several bark-grafting videos on Youtube, a video is worth a thousand words.


Thanks a lot , I’ve been watching the videos for about an hour , seems easy enough , I’ve got several that are probably to big but may try a few anyway , and tons of small ones I’m gonna do , this kind of stuff is really interesting to me !


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## Howard Roark

Have you grafted oriental persimmon onto male trees. I have often thought of doing so.


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## NCHillbilly

antharper said:


> Thanks a lot , I’ve been watching the videos for about an hour , seems easy enough , I’ve got several that are probably to big but may try a few anyway , and tons of small ones I’m gonna do , this kind of stuff is really interesting to me !


The perfect size to me is about 1" diameter. Most of them I do are anywhere from about 1/2" to 2". I've been getting probably 90% success rate on persimmons. They're one of the easiest species to graft, besides maybe apples and pears. I have also grafted a good many mulberries, fruiting pears onto bradford pear seedlings, Apple onto wild crabapple, etc.


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## NCHillbilly

Howard Roark said:


> Have you grafted oriental persimmon onto male trees. I have often thought of doing so.


Yes. We grafted some Fuyu and another cultivar of Japanese persimmon that I don't remember offhand onto some wild seedlings last year. I think some of the selctions/cultivars of American persimmon are better than the Japs, though, for wildlife purposes. Meader and Yates are my two favorites so far. Fast growth, very heavy fruiting, somewhat self-fertile, and the persimmons are 2-3x the size of the average wild one.


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## Howard Roark

NCHillbilly said:


> Yes. We grafted some Fuyu and another cultivar of Japanese persimmon that I don't remember offhand onto some wild seedlings last year. I think some of the selctions/cultivars of American persimmon are better than the Japs, though, for wildlife purposes. Meader and Yates are my two favorites so far. Fast growth, very heavy fruiting, somewhat self-fertile, and the persimmons are 2-3x the size of the average wild one.



They drop so late in the year is the one biggest problem


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## NCHillbilly

Howard Roark said:


> They drop so late in the year is the one biggest problem


Which ones? The ones I mentioned usually drop from late September-early November. The Meaders and Yates are about all gone by late October. The straight native ones are often still dropping in early-mid December.


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## Howard Roark

Oriental percommions seem to hold on until January. There is a loaded tree down the street from our home.


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## Forest Grump

Howard Roark said:


> Oriental percommions seem to hold on until January. There is a loaded tree down the street from our home.



The main issue with Oriental persimmons is, (once they stop dropping early), they stay on the tree until they are virtually rotten. They are prolific, consistent, and slow growing. 

Better to go with the cultivars he mentioned, or graft to known females on your property that bear heavily. Stark Bros has one called Prok that is a good, self-fertile selection also.


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## Jim Boyd

This is a GREAT thread and I am I on board this winter and into the spring. 
I have a zillion juvenile persimmons and I fear a zillion juvenile Bradford pears also. 

Maybe I can take some scions from the 5 varieties of pears I planted this year (they are 6-10’ tall now) and graft them on to the base of an existing Bradford pear root stock???

I will be trying to learn between now and then.


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## NCHillbilly

Jim Boyd said:


> This is a GREAT thread and I am I on board this winter and into the spring.
> I have a zillion juvenile persimmons and I fear a zillion juvenile Bradford pears also.
> 
> Maybe I can take some scions from the 5 varieties of pears I planted this year (they are 6-10’ tall now) and graft them on to the base of an existing Bradford pear root stock???
> 
> I will be trying to learn between now and then.


I have had pretty good results bark grafting pear scions onto Bradford seedlings, but it's better it the rootstock is at least 1/2" in diameter. An inch is even better.


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## Jim Boyd

NCHillbilly said:


> I have had pretty good results bark grafting pear scions onto Bradford seedlings, but it's better it the rootstock is at least 1/2" in diameter. An inch is even better.



Now that I have half an idea about what to look for, I will be all over it.


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## SRShunter

Jim Boyd said:


> This is a GREAT thread and I am I on board this winter and into the spring.
> I have a zillion juvenile persimmons and I fear a zillion juvenile Bradford pears also.
> 
> Maybe I can take some scions from the 5 varieties of pears I planted this year (they are 6-10’ tall now) and graft them on to the base of an existing Bradford pear root stock???
> 
> I will be trying to learn between now and then.


You're a great steward of the land JB, sure wished we had more folks around like yourself


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## Jim Boyd

SRShunter said:


> You're a great steward of the land JB, sure wished we had more folks around like yourself



SRS, I am not sure that I am such a great steward or is it that I just yap about it more???

Thanks for your kind comments and I am just trying to keep up with folks like you!

Can’t spill the beans yet but may have a good announcement in a few weeks....

Be safe brother!!!!


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## snipe stalker

Have y'all had better luck with pears vs persimmon grafts taking? Or vice versa?


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## Jim Boyd

I am late getting into this game and I walked this weekend doing a tree survey.

Many of the trees, I cannot sex - I think the flowers are already gone?

I marked many male trees and a good supply of female trees.

Some of the latter appear to be heavy bearing this year and it is from this group that I will harvest my scions this coming winter.

Did my walking in tennis shoes and shorts, I know better and am def gonna have poison on my legs.

Will def pull scions from this tree....


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## ucfireman

So followed this thread and results are nice. 
So I have some persimmon seedlings that popped up this year. I want to try this.

First I need to move a few around. Do persimmons take to replanting OK? Should I leave them in place and do the graft then move them next fall or move them this fall and graft them in the spring? 

Second, the little ones are about pencil size, do you cut the whole top off and then graft the scion as the only stem/leader? or do you just pick 1-2 limbs and do those? 

Third when do you take the scion cuttings? 

I have never grafted plants before but want to try it.


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## NCHillbilly

A representative graft from a couple years ago. It’s about 2.5” trunk now, about 12’ tall, and loaded with fruit:


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## ucfireman

Any idea on how old or tall the tree needs to be before they fruit? I have a few seedlings that I'm waiting to see what they do and need to move 1-2 around. 

And did you just graft all you wanted or did you have some that you were sure were males? that you grafted?


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## NCHillbilly

ucfireman said:


> Any idea on how old or tall the tree needs to be before they fruit? I have a few seedlings that I'm waiting to see what they do and need to move 1-2 around.
> 
> And did you just graft all you wanted or did you have some that you were sure were males? that you grafted?


They will usually start fruiting the next year after grafting. I usually graft males, but either one will work.


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## NCHillbilly

This is from a two-year-old graft. Those are Meader persimmons, about 3/4 the size of a golf ball:


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## Jim Boyd

I am def following. 

We bought a small farm this year and it is loaded with juvenile persimmons. 


NCHB - do you buy the various types of scions or do they all come from known trees?


I have several trees marked that are decent females with good fruit but I am sure these are all the common variety and would like to introduce some new blood. 

I am gonna be all over this come the green up. I have already selected a great many males and an starting time clear to trees and brush out around the trees.


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## Ugahunter2013

When you graft a tree does the entire tree start producing fruit, or just the limb you attached the graft to?


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## NCHillbilly

Jim Boyd said:


> I am def following.
> 
> We bought a small farm this year and it is loaded with juvenile persimmons.
> 
> 
> NCHB - do you buy the various types of scions or do they all come from known trees?
> 
> 
> I have several trees marked that are decent females with good fruit but I am sure these are all the common variety and would like to introduce some new blood.
> 
> I am gonna be all over this come the green up. I have already selected a great many males and an starting time clear to trees and brush out around the trees.


I started out cutting scion wood from a couple Meader and Yates trees that I had planted. After a year or two of grafting, you have plenty of scion wood from pruning the ones you've grafted in the past.


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## NCHillbilly

Ugahunter2013 said:


> When you graft a tree does the entire tree start producing fruit, or just the limb you attached the graft to?


It would depend on where you made the graft. I cut the whole sapling off about waist level and bark graft it, so the whole tree will fruit. I'm creating a new trunk, not just a branch. I cut off all the branches that sprout out of the original trunk below the graft union.


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## Ugahunter2013

So this is more ideal for smaller trees? I have a few nice and healthy males on the edge of a food plot. Probably 15 ft tall and 5” or so in diameter. Of course i have smaller ones that are shaded out in the pines but the healthier looking ones are on roadways etc


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## NCHillbilly

Ugahunter2013 said:


> So this is more ideal for smaller trees? I have a few nice and healthy males on the edge of a food plot. Probably 15 ft tall and 5” or so in diameter. Of course i have smaller ones that are shaded out in the pines but the healthier looking ones are on roadways etc


I prefer grafting trees that are 2" diameter or less. 5" persimmon has thick, rough bark.


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## Ugahunter2013

NC, at what point do you make your cut on the male tree that you are putting the scion grafts on? Do you do that at the time you apply the grafts?

Also, have you seen any benefit to adding fertilizer to your trees after they have taken shape. Maybe the 2nd year? Just wandering if this could speed up the process.

For the scion wood, i assume if you find a nice healthy female you could get loads of scion grafts from it right? I guess do you limit how many you take from any one tree?

I have been looking hard for female trees the past few weeks. I have found probably 30 , To which i have flagged. Of course i have found many more males trees i have my eyes set on.


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## Howard Roark

NCHillbilly said:


> I prefer grafting trees that are 2" diameter or less. 5" persimmon has thick, rough bark.



This tree is in the middle of my bottom food plot. Has never had a persimmon on it. There are 4 trees like this in the plot. My assumption is they are all male. 

There are 100 or so persimmon trees in the area.


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## NCHillbilly

Howard Roark said:


> This tree is in the middle of my bottom food plot. Has never had a persimmon on it. There are 4 trees like this in the plot. My assumption is they are all male.
> 
> There are 100 or so persimmon trees in the area. View attachment 1048554


That one might be a little too big, but you might be able to make it work.


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## Howard Roark

NCHillbilly said:


> I prefer grafting trees that are 2" diameter or less. 5" persimmon has thick, rough bark.



This tree is in the middle of my bottom food plot. Has never had a persimmon on it. There are 4 trees like this in the plot. My assumption is they are all male. 

There are 100 or so persimmon trees in the area. 


NCHillbilly said:


> That one might be a little too big, but you might be able to make it work.


That is the largest of the 4. Does the fact that they have never produced fruit a sure indicator they are male?


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## NCHillbilly

Howard Roark said:


> This tree is in the middle of my bottom food plot. Has never had a persimmon on it. There are 4 trees like this in the plot. My assumption is they are all male.
> 
> There are 100 or so persimmon trees in the area.
> 
> That is the largest of the 4. Does the fact that they have never produced fruit a sure indicator they are male?


Probably so. They usually start producing pretty young. You can look at the flowers and tell for sure.


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## SakoL61R

NCH, Thanks for posting this up.  Remember seeing the thread awhile back and found it very interesting.  Going to give it a go on a persimmon and a couple of pears this winter / spring.


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## NCHillbilly

You need to try it. Most of the original year’s trees in this thread are over 15’ tall and bearing plenty of fruit.


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