# Through the eyes of a child



## redwards (Jun 27, 2018)

No need for explanation....just follow the links...
https://www.bristol.anglican.org/news/2016/07/29/jonathan-10-on-connecting-with-god/

https://eyecantalk.net

Today's Scripture from the Daily Devotional I read....
*Colossians 1:13-23 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)*
13 He has rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. 14 In him we have redemption,[a] the forgiveness of sins.

The Centrality of Christ
15 He is the image of the invisible God,
the firstborn over all creation.
16 For everything was created by him,
in heaven and on earth,
the visible and the invisible,
whether thrones or dominions
or rulers or authorities—
all things have been created through him and for him.
17 He is before all things,
and by him all things hold together.
18 He is also the head of the body, the church;
he is the beginning,
the firstborn from the dead,
so that he might come to have
first place in everything.
19 For God was pleased to have
all his fullness dwell in him,
20 and through him to reconcile
everything to himself,
whether things on earth or things in heaven,
by making peace
through his blood, shed on the cross.

*21 Once you were alienated and hostile in your minds expressed in your evil actions. 22 But now he has reconciled you by his physical body through his death, to present you holy, faultless, and blameless before him— 23 if indeed you remain grounded and steadfast in the faith and are not shifted away from the hope of the gospel that you heard. This gospel has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and I, Paul, have become a servant of it.*


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## atlashunter (Jun 27, 2018)

Is that supposed to be an apologetics post? Because it looks a lot like proselytism.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 27, 2018)

I ask my unbelieving friends here..... Does it make sense to you that the same greek word would be translated 2 different ways in the same breath?
16 For everything was created by him,
in heaven and on earth [for everything was created ev him, ev heaven and....]
The translation has ev which should be "in" as by and in. Thus trying to force Jesus to be the creator...... But I suppose since your unbelievers, that you could not discern language. LOL, That's what the'll say.

Context;   Eph 2;10For we are God’s workmanship, created in [ev] Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
LOL, notice the text did not allow them to force Jesus to be the creator here.... or else they would have.

Now look at vs 20...... hmmmm now they correctly translate by, [dia] and LOL, they even get ev right this time. They are corrupting the scriptures.... Yet will fight against facts.  Ever wondered why they fight against rational thinking so hard? Even when it's obvious that they are wrong???? Like robots in a trance.... and can't even see it. You know it's true. You have seen it time and time again. LOL, that's partly what makes my faith strong. It takes a power to do this. EDIT, I should remove this.... to keep from derailing the thread. I wish them the best. Got to admit though..... I'm a skeptic regarding  religious marketing.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 27, 2018)

God is not a creature.

"through, on account of, because of"
"in him, through him,"


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I ask my unbelieving friends here..... Does it make sense to you that the same greek word would be translated 2 different ways in the same breath?
> 16 For everything was created by him,
> in heaven and on earth [for everything was created ev him, ev heaven and....]
> The translation has ev which should be "in" as by and in. Thus trying to force Jesus to be the creator...... But I suppose since your unbelievers, that you could not discern language. LOL, That's what the'll say.
> ...


I don't think the average Christian knows and more importantly doesn't want to know that the Bible they have sitting on the coffee table is NOT the "word of God" that they think it is.
Sure they might accept the fact that there are mistranslations etc. but its always claimed those mistranslations are minor and don't make any difference. Ask the same Christians what those mistranslations are and you typically get 
Yet they claim to know they are minor and don't make a difference.


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## Israel (Jun 28, 2018)

"The problem with the average man is that he does not believe he is avearge"


Yet, we remain with our testimony:
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Neither do we deny His name to be the Word of God.

He, Jesus Christ, is _all _that God the Father has to say to man.
He is indeed, God's word _to us_. Man.

If there be such a thing as the average man in distinction to something else, even as there _might be_ the average christian, we are unconvinced. God speaks to man, and men, who _must be_ saved.

It is no small work that any man find himself here, where man and men become all of the same. A not insignificant work in this salvation is that the man who once could never consider himself average, as merely a man among men, finds unless he be convinced this is so, he cannot be saved. The man _whose delight_ is in_ thinking himself better (_though this man be precisely the one Jesus has come for) finds he cannot hold this and enter through the gate.

But this work, not small, is not the work of that man. That man discovers all his labor, work, and striving (and grievous burden)...has been, and always is, to an end of showing himself distinct among men. And to a _betterness_. 

And so even believers_ may_ struggle in this...to "_not be_ the average christian". He seeks, at times even here, until he is fully persuaded otherwise by the _only_ power able to show that this native born, and naturalness of competition, has no place in the Kingdom of God.

Salvation comes to man, and that specifically to _the sinner. _The falling shorter man...who may come to see by a work of power in grace, that it has been his own stretching forward to grasp at "being better" to claim such distinction is, and has always been his own undoing. His_ own undoing._

Do some yet think God in Christ has done some small work? This leveling out? This lowering of high places and lifting of valleys...so that man, no matter what he consider "his starting place", victor or victim in this life amongst man...is equal before God?

Kings and paupers are the same before Him, the wise and the ignorant, the intellectual and the grossly superstitious. His Messiah (Christ) associates with the lowly and broken as comfortably as He speaks with Pilate. No man has any advantage here in his "starting place". His rebuke of what claims a kindredness to Abraham is manifestly also seen in His marvel at the centurion.

Faith...is the necessity to all men, rich, poor, elevated or in humbler estate.
All men...are the same before Him, needing salvation. Apostles...prophets...pastors...and "average christians" are no different, at all. 

All, men.

Men with "years in Christ", men with much study and labor "under their belt"...if unable to see their kindredness to the freshest babe, (or even their _brother in waiting_) have learned...nothing.

But, unlike our own labors, God's are _never in vain_.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I don't think the average Christian knows and more importantly doesn't want to know that the Bible they have sitting on the coffee table is NOT the "word of God" that they think it is.
> Sure they might accept the fact that there are mistranslations etc. but its always claimed those mistranslations are minor and don't make any difference. Ask the same Christians what those mistranslations are and you typically get
> Yet they claim to know they are minor and don't make a difference.


They will not, never, ever except any verse to be a mistranslation, if it contradicts what they want to believe. I have asked why they want Jesus to be the creator so bad. It would not be a hit against the trinity. I don't know what the problem is in letting the Father/God be the creator? Yet they will not accept it.


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## 660griz (Jun 28, 2018)

Kids believe in all sorts of things. My granddaughter has a great imagination.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> They will not, never, ever except any verse to be a mistranslation, if it contradicts what they want to believe. I have asked why they want Jesus to be the creator so bad. It would not be a hit against the trinity. I don't know what the problem is in letting the Father/God be the creator? Yet they will not accept it.


And this makes me scratch my head a bit -
Many Christians go on and on how their belief in God is because of a "personal experience".
Ok fine.
So if your belief is based on a personal experience whats the deal with not accepting the FACT that there are mistranslations, edits, deletions etc.?
Accepting that fact doesn't change their personal experience so why dig your heels in and deny, deny, deny?


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## ky55 (Jun 28, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> And this makes me scratch my head a bit -
> Many Christians go on and on how their belief in God is because of a "personal experience".
> Ok fine.
> So if your belief is based on a personal experience whats the deal with not accepting the FACT that there are mistranslations, edits, deletions etc.?
> Accepting that fact doesn't change their personal experience so why dig your heels in and deny, deny, deny?



In for a penny, in for a pound.

*


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> 16 For everything was created by him,





1gr8bldr said:


> They are corrupting the scriptures....Like robots in a trance.... and can't even see it.





1gr8bldr said:


> I have asked why they want Jesus to be the creator so bad. It would not be a hit against the trinity. I don't know what the problem is in letting the Father/God be the creator? Yet they will not accept it.


About to hit the road.......but in the meantime, you care to explain John 1 and 1st John 5 and then get back to Colossians 1 verses 1-16.

At this point it doesn`t matter which translation or version you believe is the most accurate, been added to or deleted from. It has nothing to do with what a word means in Greek, is true or false or what did, didn't, can or couldn't happen. The idea is to use what it is written as written there right now in the version that I use, the KJV, to explain your conclusion of making Jesus the Creator and not the Father/God. 



> "_But I suppose since your unbelievers, that you could not discern language. LOL, That's what the'll say_."



It has nothing to do with discernment. It is simple comprehension of the words as written on this one.


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## redwards (Jun 28, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Is that supposed to be an apologetics post? Because it *looks* a lot like proselytism.



You need to ask one of the Forum Moderators for an answer to that question.
I am only a member of the GON Forum. I'm not qualified to make that type of determination.
However, I do notice those subjective verbs are still appearing....

*The Line*



660griz said:


> Kids believe in all sorts of things. My granddaughter has a great imagination.



Yes, she most likely does.... however, the greater question is...If she comes to granddaddy one day and asks..."Granddaddy, did Jesus really lay down His life for you and for me?"
What will your answer be?


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2018)

redwards said:


> You need to ask one of the Forum Moderators for an answer to that question.
> I am only a member of the GON Forum. I'm not qualified to make that type of determination.
> However, I do notice those subjective verbs are still appearing....
> 
> ...



Are you really unable to tell the difference between apologetics and proselytizing?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> About to hit the road.......but in the meantime, you care to explain John 1 and 1st John 5 and then get back to Colossians 1 verses 1-16.
> 
> At this point it doesn`t matter which translation or version you believe is the most accurate, been added to or deleted from. It has nothing to do with what a word means in Greek, is true or false or what did, didn't, can or couldn't happen. The idea is to use what it is written as written there right now in the version that I use, the KJV, to explain your conclusion of making Jesus the Creator and not the Father/God.
> 
> ...


Ok, nothing to debate in 1-16 Colissians. However vs 16 I have already pointed out that ev should never be translated as "by" . Funny thing is how the translators bounce around using in or by. Yet in the same verses, breath, they do use by..... why am I explaining this again.I made a rock solid case against this before. You apparently did not read it. Go read it.  Here is the NASB use of EV, notice not even once is it translated as by...............about (3), afterwards* (2), along (1), amid (1), *among (124),* among* (4), because (3), before (1), before* (3), besides (1), between* (1), case (2), child* (4), circumstance (1), circumstances (1), conscious* (1), death* (1), during (7), earnestly* (1), free* (1), had (1), here* (2), how* (1), means (1), outwardly* (1), over (1), there* (2), through (18), throughout (4), together (1), under (5), under...circumstances (1), undisturbed* (1), until* (1), way (4), when (19), when* (3), where* (2), while (19), while* (3), within (14), within*


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2018)

> redwards said
> No need for explanation....just follow the links...


Actually I do need an explanation.
Whats the point you are trying to make?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> About to hit the road.......but in the meantime, you care to explain John 1 and 1st John 5 and then get back to Colossians 1 verses 1-16.
> 
> At this point it doesn`t matter which translation or version you believe is the most accurate, been added to or deleted from. It has nothing to do with what a word means in Greek, is true or false or what did, didn't, can or couldn't happen. The idea is to use what it is written as written there right now in the version that I use, the KJV, to explain your conclusion of making Jesus the Creator and not the Father/God.
> 
> ...


As far as John 1..... It does not say "by", it says through. Meaning "agent", not creator. Big difference. However, the verse is messed up. It was never meant to be read as  Jesus as God from the beginning, creating. It's a messed up analogy where John was making a point comparing Jesus to the light. But the translators used him instead of it. The proof is that John tells us that he is not the light, the subject. If John had just meant to say that Jesus was from the beginning, that he was God..... It would make no sense to then say, but I am not him. Come on... he would be stoned by the assumption that he would have been confused as God. The analogy was that Jesus is the agent of the new creation. Just as light is the agent of the first creation. The light is the subject. Read it and see if it's not. As John progresses in the analogy he then tries to roll the analogy to Jesus. But the translators ruined the analogy by inserting Jesus before John intended.


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## bullethead (Jun 28, 2018)

redwards said:


> You need to ask one of the Forum Moderators for an answer to that question.
> I am only a member of the GON Forum. I'm not qualified to make that type of determination.
> However, I do notice those subjective verbs are still appearing....
> 
> ...


I would answer...According to the stories in the Bible he did, but those stories exist nowhere else so they have to be taken as good writing but not always true.


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## ky55 (Jun 28, 2018)

redwards said:


> Yes, she most likely does.... however, the greater question is...If she comes to granddaddy one day and asks..."Granddaddy, did Jesus really lay down His life for you and for me?"
> What will your answer be?



Christianity’s indoctrination of small children by the authority figures in their lives is probably its most successful recruitment tactic.
I think their brains are hard wired to respond more to reward and punishment, and you just can’t top the ideas of heaven and the hot place to cover both.
If you convince them they are worthless and their lives are wasted without THE imaginary friend early enough in their lives, there’s not much they can do later.

Here’s the first hit I got when I Googled “religious indoctrination of children”  :

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/parenting/religious-indoctrination-of-children

“Here's the bottom line: if you hold back from fulfilling your spiritual responsibilities as a parent out of some vague fear of "indoctrinating" your kids, you'll only be doing them a huge disservice. Moms and dads who withhold instruction from their children and allow them to "decide for themselves" what they're going to believe are almost guaranteeing that they'll "decide" to turn away from the faith and embrace "what seems right in their own eyes" (Judges 21:25). That's a mistake you don't want to make.”

(Can’t have them thinking for themselves!!)

“If you need help applying these principles, call us. We have a staff of pastoral counselors who would love to discuss your questions and concerns with you over the phone.”

(Our team of indoctrination professionals are waiting to help.)


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

As far as who created, the Father.... or Jesus???? The apostles creed, the nicene creed and the catholic creed has the Father as the creator.
6yet for us there is but one God,the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist. And there is but one Lord, JesusChrist, through whom all things came and throughwhom we exist. [through as agent, not creator] So, you guys whom want Jesus to be the creator.... using an ambigious text to make it what you want.... your essentially saying this verse is  false. You can't have it both ways. This verse clearly says the Father, your verses are ambigious. If you really want to see the corruption.... lets look farther...


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## atlashunter (Jun 28, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Christianity’s indoctrination of small children by the authority figures in their lives is probably its most successful recruitment tactic.
> I think their brains are hard wired to respond more to reward and punishment, and you just can’t top the ideas of heaven and the hot place to cover both.
> If you convince them they are worthless and their lives are wasted without THE imaginary friend early enough in their lives, there’s not much they can do later.
> 
> ...


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## WaltL1 (Jun 28, 2018)

https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family-q-and-a/parenting/religious-indoctrination-of-children

Really should make that ^ a permanent sticky up there so every time we get the inevitable argument about indoctrination we can just say "go click, read and get back to us".


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

I challenge anyone to find a verse that says anything was created "by" Jesus. Of course, it has to be "by" in the greek. All you will find is "in, ev" and "through,  Sia". No by's. What's the difference.... for one, why did the writer not just use by? 2, through denotes agent, not creator. And before you fight this, answer to 1 Cor 8:6..... And yes, specifically, the word Father is present in the verse of the greek text 

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I challenge anyone to find a verse that says anything was created "by" Jesus. Of course, it has to be "by" in the greek. All you will find is "in, ev" and "through,  Sia". No by's. What's the difference.... for one, why did the writer not just use by? 2, through denotes agent, not creator. And before you fight this, answer to 1 Cor 8:6..... And yes, specifically, the word Father is present in the verse of the greek text
> 
> yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.


hmmmmm, one God, the Father.........hmmmmmm Dang, could somebody mistranslate this... quick and yes, in the greek. No back door


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Ok, nothing to debate in 1-16 Colissians. However vs 16 I have already pointed out that ev should never be translated.... why am I explaining this again.I made a rock solid case against this before. You apparently did not read it. Go read it.  Here is the NASB use of EV.....





1gr8bldr said:


> As far as John 1..... It does not say "by", it says through. Meaning "agent", ........


Ok lets try this again.

Right here I am asking you to explain what I use, the KJV, Col 1: vs 1- 16,  John 1 and 1st John 5 as written there right now without all of the what should have-beens, translations or the use of what another version has to say to explain your statement below. This has nothing to do with a right or wrong version or when it was written. It establishes "the belief" - that you are saying we overlook the mistranslations of, if it contradicts what we believe.


Spotlite said:


> The idea is to use what it is written as written there right now in the version that I use, the KJV, to explain your conclusion of making Jesus the Creator and not the Father/God.





1gr8bldr said:


> _They will not, never, ever except any verse to be a mistranslation, if it contradicts what they want to believe. I have asked why they want Jesus to be the creator so bad. It would not be a hit against the trinity. I don't know what the problem is in letting the Father/God be the creator? Yet they will not accept it_.



I will cut the chase.
1 John 5: 7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


2. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Colossians 1
2. To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created,  (the "HIM" right here is the Father / Creator, start at verse 12 and put them together)

Based on as written right there, we RECOGNIZE the Father / God as the Creator and Jesus as his Son that was made flesh. They are one in spirit and we are one in spirit. No discernment needed for that.

"Mistranslations" have not fooled anyone on this side.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Ok lets try this again.
> 
> Right here I am asking you to explain what I use, the KJV, Col 1: vs 1- 16,  John 1 and 1st John 5 as written there right now without all of the what should have-beens, translations or the use of what another version has to say to explain your statement below. This has nothing to do with a right or wrong version or when it was written. It establishes "the belief" - that you are saying we overlook the mistranslations of, if it contradicts what we believe.
> 
> ...


Apparently I don't understand your point, because this is so random. Refine it please


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite, you say; In 1st John, there are three that bear witness....... This is a gross mistranslation of the KJV. And I assume that you will ignore it being a mistranslation. Or, are you asking me to explain the KJV, what you use, I'll just say that's it's full of mistranslations and I don't know why anyone of this century would use it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

I'm going to explain this once more..... Moses said what should I do if they don't believe that you sent me...... stretch out your hand.... nile..... water will turn to blood.  When Jesus was stabbed, water and blood poured out. The Spirit testifies that Jesus came by water and blood, these three agree. It does not say, F, S and HS. The KJ translators did not know enough about the scriptures to give a correct translation..... so they took the liberty to force a doctrine. Are we in elementary school? I see this verse used so often. Any real bible student knows this. Why does it keep coming up?


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Apparently I don't understand your point, because this is so random. Refine it please



Absolutely   



1gr8bldr said:


> Yet will fight against facts.  Ever wondered why they fight against rational thinking so hard? Even when it's obvious that they are wrong???? Like robots in a trance.... and can't even see it. You know it's true.


Was not sure who the "they" was until the following was stated. 


> _I don't think the average Christian_



And this........


1gr8bldr said:


> They will not, never, ever except any verse to be a mistranslation, if it contradicts what they want to believe. I have asked why they want Jesus to be the creator so bad. It would not be a hit against the trinity. I don't know what the problem is in letting the Father/God be the creator? Yet they will not accept it.


And this..........


1gr8bldr said:


> I challenge anyone to find a verse that says anything was created "by" Jesus.


And this....... 


1gr8bldr said:


> give a correct translation..... so they took the liberty to force a doctrine. Are we in elementary school? I see this verse used so often. Any real bible student knows this. Why does it keep coming up?


I am beginning to wonder.............I specifically stated this was not about what was added, deleted, right or wrongly translated, etc. This was about your statement: "never, ever except any verse to be a mistranslation, if it contradicts what they want to believe. I have asked why they want Jesus to be the creator so bad." You are wrong, using the same verses you used *as written *does not contradict our belief as God / Father the Creator. We actually point to those as reference. That is as refined as I can make it.


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## Israel (Jun 28, 2018)

ky55 said:


> In for a penny, in for a pound.
> 
> *



You are not wrong in this. In for_ all._

A man may not understand _all_ the significance of Jesus' saying the "scripture cannot be broken" in every particular, but believing Jesus has said it, is enough. Along the way he may learn in himself, and through experience of believing Christ, being made aware of some particulars...such as:

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Yet even in that he may discover there is much more to be uncovered in the things he may even believe he has learned.
The writings that do indeed testify to Christ are deep and rich to help a man come to rely on the same spirit that provided that inspiration.

The beginnings of perception that Jesus' words are indeed spirit and life must and will lead to a hunger and thirst for the righteousness that is _of faith._

And this faith, of reliance upon the _goodness of will _of another is never disappointed nor put to shame. Indeed, faith in God through Christ is the only surety against shame. Even the man _shaming himself_ in denial, can have relief given him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Absolutely
> 
> 
> Was not sure who the "they" was until the following was stated.
> ...


So are you agreeing that God the Father is the creator? Not Jesus... If your agreeing, then why the debate, what are you questioning?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Absolutely
> 
> 
> using the same verses you used *as written *does not contradict our belief as God / Father the Creator. We actually point to those as reference. That is as refined as I can make it.


 If you believe that God the Father is the creator, then your not the typical Christian. They believe Jesus created everything.


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> So are you agreeing that God the Father is the creator? Not Jesus... If your agreeing, then why the debate, what are you questioning?


I questioned it because it appeared to cover all.  


1gr8bldr said:


> If you believe that God the Father is the creator, then your not the typical Christian. They believe Jesus created everything.


I guess that would depend on what is considered the typical Christian. All of the ones I know, even across different denominations believe God / Father the Creator.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I questioned it because it appeared to cover all.
> 
> I guess that would depend on what is considered the typical Christian. All of the ones I know, even across different denominations believe God / Father the Creator.


Interesting.... never met any that believe the Father created. I expect that your in the %5 club. Ask around and see. I will just because EDIT, thread is started. I'm not expecting many responses because everyone knows that a debate is going on..... And verses have been posted contrary to Jesus being the creator. Not expecting anybody brave enough to step into the ring


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Interesting.... never met any that believe the Father created. I expect that your in the %5 club. Ask around and see. I will just because EDIT, thread is started. I'm not expecting many responses because everyone knows that a debate is going on..... And verses have been posted contrary to Jesus being the creator. Not expecting anybody brave enough to step into the ring


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 28, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Interesting.... never met any that believe the Father created. I expect that your in the %5 club. Ask around and see. I will just because EDIT, thread is started. I'm not expecting many responses because everyone knows that a debate is going on..... And verses have been posted contrary to Jesus being the creator. Not expecting anybody brave enough to step into the ring



I think that there are many Trinitarians that believe God created, the from God through Christ route.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

I think that is what Paul is saying.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 29, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that there are many Trinitarians that believe God created, the from God through Christ route.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 8:6
> yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
> ...


I had a thread about this a year or so ago, specifically about why force Jesus to be the creator. It got lots of responses. Seemed all the usual's were against it. I wonder how far back the history goes. Not one person spoke up in support of the idea.My premise was that it is not a hit against the trinity, so why fight it so hard. But fight hard, they did. I will look for it. Maybe I caused some to reconsider.


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## Spotlite (Jun 29, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that there are many Trinitarians that believe God created, the from God through Christ route.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 8:6
> yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
> ...


Many folks wrap it up with all three in one because of in “spirit”

They know the difference though. So it may just appear that they’re making Jesus the Creator because they are recognizing God through Jesus.


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## Spotlite (Jun 29, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I had a thread about this a year or so ago, specifically about why force Jesus to be the creator. It got lots of responses. Seemed all the usual's were against it.  Not one person spoke up in support of the idea..


This is confusing. I may be reading wrong though. 


1gr8bldr said:


> Interesting.... never met any that believe the Father created. I expect that your in the %5 club. Ask around and see.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Many folks wrap it up with all three in one because of in “spirit”
> 
> They know the difference though. So it may just appear that they’re making Jesus the Creator because they are recognizing God through Jesus.



Like Builder, I don't see it as a hit against the Trinity either. Curious, when we get to Heaven, will we see God only through Jesus? God is Spirit, Jesus is physical, we'll be physical as well. Physical could mean human. Regardless we will be either human spirits or human physicals, just like Jesus when we see him as he is and become like him.
Many Trinitarians and all Oneness believers think we will only see God through Jesus. I can understand Oneness seeing it this way as they believe God is now Jesus only. The Trinity though, one would think we'll see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus did have his own spirit working with God's Spirit, so we should be able to experience that human spirit of Jesus unless he parked it at Heaven's gate with his human body.


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## Israel (Jun 30, 2018)

Spirit _is _what is true. Sight in spirit is what is the true fundamental of seeing.

The material eye, to which we _may yet _attribute supreme function of sight, of perception, and _mostly_ cannot _begin to imagine_ what sight means apart from it, is the organ created to _hint us the way_ to what true sight means.

When it becomes sole in our understanding (the material eye) of what and how sight _truly_ functions we have the scriptures to be brought to mind by the spirit to disabuse us of this. We also have the strong caution of the Lord in them, lest having begun in that sole reliance that results in _unrighteous judgment_, we purpose to stay there.

"That the eyes of your heart might be enlightened..."

"He who _made_ the eye , does He not see...?"

"Had you been blind, you would have no sin, but now because _you say_ we see, your sin remains"

"yea, though we have known *Christ after* the *flesh*, yet from now on know we him no more." (the material senses)


And this of particular noteworthiness:

Hear, you deaf; and look, you blind, that you may see.
Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger whom I sent? who is blind as he who is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant?

This One, whom Isaiah "saw" again comes into view

The Spirit of the LORD will rest on Him—the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and strength, the Spirit of knowledge and the fear of the LORD. And He will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what His eyes see,and He will not decide by what His ears hear, but with righteousness He will judge the poor, and with equity He will decide in favor of the earth’s oppressed. He will strike the earth with the rod of His mouth and slay the wicked with the breath of His lips.

It is, of course, a difficulty for us when we put our own hearing and seeing (in all things) in the forefront. We cannot, nor do we care to, see Jesus as one walking blind. Singleness of eye must always lead to that accusation amongst what considers itself so well endowed with _fullness of sight._

But Jesus remains by His own testimony one who is blind _but_ to this one thing:

Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.

Since no man can see God (apart from the work of God _in Jesus Christ_) _no man can know_ from Whom such work is being done. Even that work of waiting "to be shown" more. Blessed is the saint who has forsaken "figuring things out" or labored in deciding "what must come next". We are all about "show and tell" when we begin to understand this is the way of God with us, toward us.

We live here now, in the frailty of these tabernacles and for the sake of the frailty of others, strictly on a need to know basis. God will never give what is harmful either to us, and by wrong handling, through us. Meat in due season is both our trust (for us), and no less our hope for others. Of course we will _seem_ all of unseeing, darkened and blinded to _what claims to know_ "all of which is going on".

But, had the princes of this world known...

It's a wonderful gift to begin to walk in this blindness, I have a sincere hope to "see" it better. Men believe, in a particular blindness they will rarely confess until God's work is being done they "see tomorrow". But even as much as the folly of this is, when "seen", even greater is their folly that they believe they have rightly seen and judged...yesterdays. They believe they hold_ in their own eye_, for true and right judgment, what has "gone before".

I leave us at this place in the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

A man may consider this, and if in darkness, make a plea for light.
Particularly in the matter of the Cross.

Some think the Father remained in an "easy" chair...an observer _apart_. But it was Jesus...doing what He observed.

The reproaches of those that reproached thee, fell on me.

What is the end for that man, made willing to _bear with God_, and _for God _all that He came to know was being aimed solely at Him? Who will then find  that line...a place of demarcation...that place of end of One to the differentiation to the Other?

Who will say "this is where Jesus occupies...and the Father, apart, here"?

Because we _may think_ we know _what one is _(after all is it not the simplest number? And we are _so advanced_ in our own maths!) we may stumble to a wounding in learning we do not yet know...as _we think_ we do.

"Show us the Father..." one said.

In another place Jesus said "I _will show_ you whom you should fear..."

As one bearing many scars rightly earned through a casualness that has led to casualty, a man is learning Jesus is not his pal.

Friend surely. Master without doubt...but not because of this man's willing acquiescence to such...but through many contests of will, in which Jesus has indeed shown himself Master.

This seems not right...to have engaged God in Christ to a game of chess, trying to "figure out" His next move. A man will know it, when he sees it. And only then.

Learning to forfeit early _is salvation_.

And...I once thought I did that...yesterday. What a fool!

If a man believe he can find that space, or that there exists between God...and His Word, there is a ready store of balm and bandage. And grace, no less, where One comes to sit with man in their moaning. The head they wound, is not without compassion.

For we too, groan inwardly. To see. To know.

Even as we are known.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I had a thread about this a year or so ago, specifically about why force Jesus to be the creator. It got lots of responses. Seemed all the usual's were against it. I wonder how far back the history goes. Not one person spoke up in support of the idea.My premise was that it is not a hit against the trinity, so why fight it so hard. But fight hard, they did. I will look for it. Maybe I caused some to reconsider.


 I found that thread... I recalled wrong. No real resistance to the Father as creator..... History here goes way back. I have spent the entire morning reading old threads, some from 2013


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I found that thread... I recalled wrong. No real resistance to the Father as creator..... History here goes way back. I have spent the entire morning reading old threads, some from 2013


Now even 2010. Wow, this is great


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## redwards (Jul 20, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Actually I do need an explanation.
> Whats the point you are trying to make?


My point? ...originally…
Since the death of Koko the gorilla was such touching news…
http://forum.gon.com/threads/rip-koko.921286/#post-11243997 …
I thought perhaps information about a young boy with very debilitating cerebral palsy just might generate some conversation…and I was willing to let the conversation take whatever direction it would...and it did…
I had a response to your question, in fact I have had several responses over the past few weeks, but I have not felt any of them would give you an idea of my point for the thread until now.
So why would it take me a few weeks to respond?

You see, I believe there are many “life learning moments” in our individual lives that help to form our lives. At this writing I am almost 75 years of age (and no, that doesn’t make me a wise man, it only makes me closer to the end of my natural time here on earth than many of you). Over the span of those 74+ years I have had opportunities for many “life learning moments”, of which I shall explain at least one to you…
I retired from BellSouth Telecommunications in 1997.
Before I retired there was a friend and peer employee who told me that his District Level Maintenance Group boss made the following comment to him one day at lunch: “You know, I believe Ralph wouldn’t get in a hurry even if his britches were on fire”…That comment was made because he (the District Level Manager) was wanting a section of cable replaced. My particular area of responsibility was over an Outside Plant Engineering group who designed and issued work authorizations for cable placement, etc. by the Construction group.

What that District Level Manager didn’t realize was that I had a very significant “life learning moment” when I was in the first grade of elementary school. By virtue of my birth date I was only 5 years old when I entered first grade…and I had a new found freedom…going to school…so, one day shortly after the school year began, a friend who lived about 3 miles from us in the country asked me if I wanted to get off the school bus at his house and then the two of us ride his bicycle to my house…well, me with my new found freedom… (plus the fact that my oldest brother and older sister were not on the school bus that afternoon for some reason which I do not recall)…I instantly made the decision that I really wanted to do that…so I got off the bus at his house…the school bus route was a circuitous route which made our house almost the last stop on the route…so we figured we could easily get to my house before the school bus did…little did we know that my friend’s mother wanted him to do something before we went to my house…yeah, you guessed it…the bus made it to my house before we got there…and mother and daddy were beside themselves when the bus went right on past the house without stopping!

Well, mother immediately got in the family car and went into town to the elementary school and went in and asked my first grade teacher if she knew where I was. The teacher said…”he got on the right bus”…beside herself, mother got in the car and came back home, only to find me and my friend at home by that time. She simply said…”Butch, you need to go home, and Ralph, your daddy will be wanting to see you when he gets finished in the dairy barn today.

I know, the read is getting long, so I’ll cut to the chase…take my word for it…a stick of stove wood can leave some splinters in your backside that will make it very uncomfortable to sit for many days!...In today’s society, daddy would have been taken straight to jail…but in 1949 that was a “life learning moment” for me…what was that “life learning moment”?...it was…
WEIGH EVERY DECISION YOU MAKE BECAUSE SOMEONE (EVEN YOURSELF) WILL BE AFFECTED BY YOUR DECISION.
To make matters even worse, when I got to school the next morning, Miss Noni Quillian, my first grade teacher, took me straight to the Principal’s office where I was told that I would not be able to participate in recess for a week, and that I had better not ever get off the school bus anywhere other than the house where I lived, unless I had permission from my parents!
So you see, while that District Level Manager wanted the defective cable replaced so it would make his results and numbers look good, I knew that I had to issue jobs for a myriad of reasons. I weighed the consequences and decided his wants did not warrant immediate action on my part…a result of an early childhood “life learning moment”.

(This post is continued in next post)


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## redwards (Jul 20, 2018)

(Continued from previous post)
...
So what’s this got to do with my original post?

Well it states in Gen 1:21-25 that after He (God) created all the creatures and animals on the earth. He (God) “saw that it was good”. Something kept stirring inside me (a life learning moment) that if God created all animals, and He saw that it (His creation) was good then Koko the Gorilla had a beginning that God saw as good. Therefore, whatever the psychologist taught Koko over the 45 years she worked and cared for Koko was good. That’s called a relationship.
Consequently, whatever the parents of Jonathan Bryan have been able to teach him in his 10 or so years of life must also be good, and quite frankly just as “touching” as anything or everything Koko was able to do in her 45 year life. That’s also called a relationship.

And, this is where my “life learning moment” connected. My oldest brother just recently (April 15 of this year) passed away at the age of 80 years old. He had been diagnosed with Lewy Body Dementia about 9 years ago. It is a very life altering disease. You can read all about it by clicking on the link, but one of the significant ways the body is affected is by a loss of balance and ability to walk.

Very early on in the diagnosis of my brother’s disease, his family gave him a Great Dane puppy. Great Dane’s are known for their ability to sense that a person is about to fall, and due to their size and strength, they become very suitable to help stabilize/support a person; thereby many times preventing a fall.

“Bo”, the name my brother gave the puppy, became his constant companion anytime my brother was outside. Every time we visited my brother, I was always amazed at how much Bo learned throughout the years my brother had him. I could describe many things that he would do, but they are not necessarily as meaningful as the points I am about to make.

One thing my brother did not do was allow Bo in their house. Bo’s bed was in the garage and he just never even acted as though he wanted to go inside the house. The last few weeks my brother was alive, he was completely bed ridden. Once my brother was completely bedridden, the family would allow Bo to come into the house so he could walk to the bedroom and visit with his friend and master.
In what was the last week of his life here on earth, my brother became increasingly unresponsive.

When Bo wanted to see my brother he would walk from his bed in the garage to the door entering the kitchen hallway. Whoever saw him standing at the door would open the door and let him in. He would walk directly to the bedroom and lie down on the bed (at the foot of my brother’s bed) that had been prepared for him. He would lie there for a few minutes and then just get up and walk to the door to wait for someone to let him back out into the garage. The day my brother passed away was on a very rainy Sunday. My wife and I, along with my son and his wife were there during most of that day. Bo came into the house several times that day, but he would only go into the bedroom, walk up to my brother’s bedside, stand there a minute or two and turn around and walk back out. We knew…and I am convinced that Bo knew…the time of passing was very near for my brother.

I realize this read is getting quite long, so I will make just a couple more points. My brother did pass away on that Sunday, late in the afternoon. My wife and I and our son and his wife had to leave in order to drive quite a distance back home.
My sister-in-law and her children told me the following the next day:

When the funeral home attendants arrived at the home to pick up the body, Bo got up out of his bed and walked outside and stood at the hearse. The men got the gurney out of the hearse and rolled it into the house where my brother’s body was. My brother’s two sons asked the men to allow them to roll their father out to the hearse, and the men consented.
When they rolled my brother out on the gurney and got to the back of the hearse, one of the attendants opened the back of the hearse. Before anyone could do anything, Bo jumped up into the hearse and lay down. They had to actually pick him up and remove him from the hearse before they could put my brother’s body in.
He was prepared to go with his friend and master, no matter what!

IT WAS THE RELATIONSHIP HE HAD WITH HIS MASTER THAT MATTERED TO HIM. A RELATIONSHIP OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE FOR AND TO EACH OTHER!

Sure, there were boundaries, but anytime my brother stepped out into the garage with the key to the Gator, Bo knew it and he knew he was going to be able to jump up into the seat and sit beside his friend and master and ride over the farm!
What joy that was to Bo! But you see, without his friend and master, Bo’s passion for life disappeared.
…
Some three and a half weeks after my brother passed away, Bo passed away…his organs began to shut down one by one. In the family’s opinion, Bo died from a grieving and broken heart!
Although the two of them, my brother and Bo, could no longer be together physically in the flesh, the family had Bo’s remains cremated and those remains were spread over my brother’s grave. They may not be together physically, but they are as close to one another as master and friend can be!

So, I don’t even pretend to know what an animal knows or thinks, or if it is pure instinctive reaction…but I do know this…whatever God’s Word states is good…it is good indeed! …

Now, to my final “life learning point”…at this moment there are 42 posts in this thread. Twenty-six (26) of those posts are debating the meaning of one little two letter word…”ev” in God’s Word….
My opinion, I know…but…  that is classic “Religiosity”.

The life we live here on earth and the joy (or sorrow) we realize at the moment our physical life on planet earth ends is not determined by our “Religiosity”, rather they (joy or sorrow…the state of our eternal souls) are determined by the RELATIONSHIPS WE HAVE WITH OUR MASTER!

The most important ”life lesson moment” I have learned through my 74+ years of life is this…God is much more delighted with our relationships… “to/through/with/in” … Him than with whether we can successfully debate the meaning of “ev”!


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