# Why I believe Jesus came back 70 ad.



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

You dont have to watch this video to comment. I'll post one and there's more after that, but if any of you watch that one you will learn alot about the bible. If you watch two, I guarantee you will learn something new, if you watch three...you're probably changed for life.

 This video is almost 20 years old and Don is still putting em out today. 

 I believe Jesus came back in 70ad because He said He would.

Matthew 24: 34Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place


I also believe the resurrection happened at the time of Jesus coming in 70ad because He said it would.

What age was Christ born into, and died in? The mosaic age. Is it over? You betchya!

Matthew 13:39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

One thing I question about a future resurrection is why? Why return to the Earth if we are already spiritually resurrected when we die a physical death?

Hobbs, if one was to dig up the graves of humans who were dead before 70AD would they find any bodies? What part of the human's "remains" remained at the 2nd resurrection?
I remember scripture that flesh & blood can't go to Heaven. I use to believe we'd go as flesh & bones. 
But if we go to be with the Lord in Paradise, where ever that is, when we die a physical death, why return to the earth?
I'm just wondering what will be left in the graves after the resurrection, past or future?
Maybe the "Mystery" Welderguy mentions is Heaven will be on Earth and thus we'll need a physical  body. God will restore the earth to a land without sin and then "thy Kingdom come on earth as it is in Heaven." If it goes down like that we'll need a physical body.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

To convince me that the 2nd coming was in 70AD, I need convincing that I want have or need a physical resurrection;

Ezekiel 37:4-6
4Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' 5"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 13, 2015)

If he came again in 70AD why didn't the writers of the Bible document it, and why isn't it in recorded history from other sources. Surely if He had returned, it would be a world shaking event, because scripture says that every eye would see him and every knee would bow and declare that He is Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If he came again in 70AD why didn't the writers of the Bible document it, and why isn't it in recorded history from other sources. Surely if He had returned, it would be a world shaking event, because scripture says that every eye would see him and every knee would bow and declare that He is Lord.



Does the Bible record the destruction of Jerusalem or the Temple?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If he came again in 70AD why didn't the writers of the Bible document it, and why isn't it in recorded history from other sources. Surely if He had returned, it would be a world shaking event, because scripture says that every eye would see him and every knee would bow and declare that He is Lord.


 

 I think all scripture was recorded pre 70 ad. And when He came it was an earth shattering event..Read Josephus accounts of the destruction of the temple.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the Bible record the destruction of Jerusalem or the Temple?


 
 No.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> To convince me that the 2nd coming was in 70AD, I need convincing that I want have or need a physical resurrection;
> 
> Ezekiel 37:4-6
> 4Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' 5"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"


 Hang on.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> No.



That is correct, it was only foretold in prophesy. If they were still writing the Bible during this time, it would be included.

Now, why can't we separate the destruction of Jerusalem from the 2nd coming of Jesus? Wasn't there to be many signs of the destruction of Jerusalem but no signs of the 2nd coming of Jesus?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> That is correct, it was only foretold in prophesy. If they were still writing the Bible during this time, it would be included.
> 
> Now, why can't we separate the destruction of Jerusalem from the 2nd coming of Jesus? Wasn't there to be many signs of the destruction of Jerusalem but no signs of the 2nd coming of Jesus?


 
 Matthew 24 is about one event that includes two things. his coming and the end of the age. The harvest in matthew 13 was to come at the end of the age. Therefore we have the destruction of the temple { judgement day} and the harvest { resurrection} all coming at 70 ad


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the Bible record the destruction of Jerusalem or the Temple?



Josephus does


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Josephus does


 
Yes, God bless.

http://www.rjgeib.com/thoughts/desolation/josephus.html


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 13, 2015)

I just can't seem to recall that Josephus recorded anything about a second coming, and if there had been one, surely somebody somewhere would have written it down.  After all, by 70 ad, the church in Jerusalem was over 50K believers, and in Corinth it is estimated that there were between 30k and 45k believers.  Surely, out of the thousands of believers, someone somewhere would have written it down?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> To convince me that the 2nd coming was in 70AD, I need convincing that I want have or need a physical resurrection;
> 
> Ezekiel 37:4-6
> 4Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' 5"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"


 

 What verse and why do you think it teaches a physical resurrection?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I just can't seem to recall that Josephus recorded anything about a second coming, and if there had been one, surely somebody somewhere would have written it down. After all, by 70 ad, the church in Jerusalem was over 50K believers, and in Corinth it is estimated that there were between 30k and 45k believers. Surely, out of the thousands of believers, someone somewhere would have written it down?


 

 No one wrote anything from 69 ad < My opinion backed by evidence to 140 or 150 ad. in the church its a period of time commonly known as the hiatus.

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> No one wrote anything from 69 ad < My opinion backed by evidence to 140 or 150 ad. in the church its a period of time commonly known as the hiatus.



That's a bit weird, but wouldn't you think someone would write about it once the hiatus was over?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> What verse and why do you think it teaches a physical resurrection?



I'm not sure, it's something I've been taught my whole life yet I don't understand it's purpose. I guess life has always meant having a body. I've always thought I'd need a body to live. There must be at least one verse some where. Maybe Welder guy will show us one. Then he can explain why I need this new body.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.

When Jesus appeared in 70AD, did they see Jesus as he really is? Did they realize what they would be like or was this about the first coming?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's a bit weird, but wouldn't you think someone would write about it once the hiatus was over?


 

 You may enjoy this. I don't much trust the "church fathers" , I guess it's the protestant in me but here's a little preterist history in origen, although eusebius recorded an even more preterist opinion.


http://www.preteristcentral.com/Origen Was a Preterist.html


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.
> 
> When Jesus appeared in 70AD, did they see Jesus as he really is? Did they realize what they would be like or was this about the first coming?


 
" We will be like him"  Eternal life as His children...although the new covenant had begun it did not come in it's fullness till His return. Then the dead in Christ, the dead ones that came with Him and the ones still alive were all joined together in one body... the body of Christ... We join that body at conversion.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You may enjoy this. I don't much trust the "church fathers" , I guess it's the protestant in me but here's a little preterist history in origen, although eusebius recorded an even more preterist opinion.
> 
> 
> http://www.preteristcentral.com/Origen Was a Preterist.html



I don't put much trust in "church fathers" either. If God thought their written works were worthy, they would be included in the Bible. I guess it's the non-trinitarian in me.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 13, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If he came again in 70AD why didn't the writers of the Bible document it,



Wasn't important.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Wasn't important.


 
Are you taking up the atheist argument, that even though scripture is clear and Jesus said Himself He would return within the generation of His disciples that He failed?

Do you agree with C.S. Lewis when he said Jesus statement was the most embarrasing verse in the bible? 

“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.” 


How do you explain what Jesus said?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Are you taking up the atheist argument,



Yes.  I don't believe a sapient designer of the preterist view exist.


----------



## centerpin fan (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't much trust the "church fathers"


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes.  I don't believe a sapient designer of the preterist view exist.



So, you believe in a God that's not of the Bible?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> So, you believe in a God that's not of the Bible?



Hobbs,I'm pretty sure he loves the same God that you and I love,based on past conversations.

He used the word "sapient",meaning" human".


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2015)

When Jesus is said to have "come back" in 70 ad did he do this:

" reveal the justice of his judgements." Romans 2:5

And if Jesus did this, what is this justice? Where do I get this revelation? Where do I search?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> When Jesus is said to have "come back" in 70 ad did he do this:
> 
> " reveal the justice of his judgements." Romans 2:5
> 
> And if Jesus did this, what is this justice? Where do I get this revelation? Where do I search?



absolutely. I've seen many futurist create a straw man argument with this scripture. God's judgement was revealed in the day of the Lord in ad 70. He brought the captives, He raised the dead in Christ, He joined them in spirit as the body of Christ.
 Now, everyone faces the judgement seat of Christ. Not at one time. But from that day to eternity.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't put much trust in "church fathers" either. If God thought their written works were worthy, they would be included in the Bible. I guess it's the non-trinitarian in me.



I am going to do somethings rude, sacrilegious even or worse even.

I'm going to hope that some people are down, as in down on the ground, and I'm going to kick them. This is sacrilegious. It upside down Good Samaritanship. But I'm going to do it. Even if my purpose is to knock someone back to their spiritual senses as, if their spirit was a defective clock. 


But worse than this I am going to perhaps blaspheme for the way I am going to do this.  Their is a point that one's soul and body is to be sacrificed for the other, for his neighbour perhaps or perhaps never, but if it is the case yes I will do it now, I am willing, that some of you walk in faith and having faith where it SHOULD BE. Big words for a little man.  Here goes:

I 'm going to change some of the the words of scripture!!!!!!!!!!!! O! NO! to make a point!




16 And there will be a day when God (according to the gospel I preach) will pass judgement, through Jesus Christ, on the hidden thoughts of men.	9  

17 Thou claimest Jewish blood ( Christianity); thou reliest on the law ( scripture) ; God ( Jesus) is all thy boast; 18 thou canst tell what is his will, discern what things are of moment, because the law ( scripture) has taught thee. 19 Thou hast confidence in thyself as one who leads the blind, a light to their darkness; 20 admonishing the fool, instructing the simple, because in the law ( scripture) thou hast the incarnation of all knowledge and all truth. 21 Tell me, then, thou who teachest others, hast thou no lesson for thyself? Is it a thief that preaches against stealing, 22 an adulterer that forbids adultery? Dost thou rob temples, thou, who shrinkest from the touch of an idol? 23 Thy boast is in the law ( Scripture); wilt thou break the law (Scripture), to God’s dishonour? 24 The name of God, says the scripture, has become a reproach among the Gentiles, because of you.[3]

---------------------

OK... I could say the same and sub specific denominations I suppose ( like mine), but the spirit of Christ's teaching here seems to me at least to be more in keeping with what we make of scripture! Do we make it everything? Is it the object of our faith? Does man walk by scripture?

We all have to look at ourselves totally perhaps if the "name of God" has become a reproach" to our children today ( and not just ourselves looking at scripture) , especially; not to mention Atheists and Agnostics, and to others who adhere to the world's religions.

--------------



So if I'm in the dog house for this bit, so be it. I hope you are in your palaces and I submit to your prayers for me.

The peace of Christ to all.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> absolutely. I've seen many futurist create a straw man argument with this scripture. God's judgement was revealed in the day of the Lord in ad 70. He brought the captives, He raised the dead in Christ, He joined them in spirit as the body of Christ.
> Now, everyone faces the judgement seat of Christ. Not at one time. But from that day to eternity.



Straw you say! In debade are there men of tin that oxygen alone corrodes ?

He raised the  ( spiritually dead in the law )  with his death and resurrection for the cross! 

Ok... how does that judgement work exactly? Are you saying the judgement we face before Christ in our lives today,  is our last judgement, that in doing this the world as in all the nations are judged? Their will be no judgement for the Jews, and for others who have only their conscious?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Straw you say! In debade are there men of tin that oxygen alone corrodes ?
> 
> He raised the ( spiritually dead in the law ) with his death and resurrection for the cross!
> 
> Ok... how does that judgement work exactly? Are you saying the judgement we face before Christ in our lives today, is our last judgement, that in doing this the world as in all the nations are judged? Their will be no judgement for the Jews, and for others who have only their conscious?


 
 I'm sorry. I started a point about a straw man argument and just left it out there without finishing my point.

 The straw man argument some make is that since preterist believe the judgement came in 70 ad , then we believe there is no more judgement. This is just not true. I will however submit that there is a fringe element and I mean very few idiots that go around claiming to be preterist that do take that approach. One you can probably find on the internet goes by the name of rivers of eden. He's an embarrasment to us, so I might as well point him out before someone comes in here saying "ya'll believe what"?

As for how this judgement works...my answer to your questions is yes, thats what Im saying.


----------



## hummerpoo (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Are you taking up the atheist argument, that even though scripture is clear and Jesus said Himself He would return within the generation of His disciples that He failed?
> 
> Do you agree with C.S. Lewis when he said Jesus statement was the most embarrasing verse in the bible?
> 
> ...



That C.S. Lewis quote is just as out of context as it was last December; making it so misleading, as to the authors intent, as to be a fabrication.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm sorry. I started a point about a straw man argument and just left it out there without finishing my point.
> 
> The straw man argument some make is that since preterist believe the judgement came in 70 ad , then we believe there is no more judgement. This is just not true. I will however submit that there is a fringe element and I mean very few idiots that go around claiming to be preterist that do take that approach. One you can probably find on the internet goes by the name of rivers of eden. He's an embarrasment to us, so I might as well point him out before someone comes in here saying "ya'll believe what"?
> 
> As for how this judgement works...my answer to your questions is yes, thats what Im saying.



Thanks for the heads up, but how can you be sure that his minority view is not The Remnant being sorted again from the previous remnant minority view?

I so wish I was an intelligent person regards intelligence and had more to go on than my experience and guts....

By the way...if you were a lawyer...you'd be rich by now... and you would take me to Africa on a buff hunt right?  But I am not very rich, nevertheless you will always be my friend. And it is not that you need me, but it is  that I need you.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> That C.S. Lewis quote is just as out of context as it was last December; making it so misleading, as to the authors intent, as to be a fabrication.


 

Here's the largest portion of the text I can find to get the context. If you can find and deem it necessary to post a larger portion I will gladly look it over for context as well.

“Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.” 
It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34)together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.

Maybe, or probably I am missing something in the context but it appears to me he claims Jesus saying his coming is in their generation is embarrasing because in his opinion it did not happen? 

Then he says Jesus goes on to claim ignorance because He claims of the day and of that hour no man knows, not the angels nor the Son, but only the Father?

 Then he claims since the Gospel author put those two verses in their account of the gospel it proves the bible is accurate, because no way would someone allow their God to appear to lie, then be ignorant?

What this shows me more than anything is C.S. Lewis was a man and succeptible to error. When Jesus said no one knew the day nor the hour, it did not cancel out his previous statement that He would return within that generation. As noted in the video . I can say , " Hey hummerpoo, next spring Im coming to your place to take you fishing...Now you wouldn't know the day or exact time, but you would know that as winter came to a close and the weather was warming and the trees began to bud that my coming was near. You would see the signs, just as the Christians saw the signs and fled Jerusalem.

 C.S. Lewis never considered Jesus was right in the text I see.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> By the way...if you were a lawyer...you'd be rich by now... and you would take me to Africa on a buff hunt right? But I am not very rich, nevertheless you will always be my friend. And it is not that you need me, but it is that I need you.


 
 I am blessed beyond measure and have all the wealth I could ever need in my Savior. However I cannot afford to send you on an african safari for buffalo, but you are welcome to bring your buffalo rifle to my house and hunt all you want....oh, yeah it's byob too.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I am blessed beyond measure and have all the wealth I could ever need in my Savior. However I cannot afford to send you on an african safari for buffalo, but you are welcome to bring your buffalo rifle to my house and hunt all you want....oh, yeah it's byob too.



That one almost went over my head.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> That C.S. Lewis quote is just as out of context as it was last December; making it so misleading, as to the authors intent, as to be a fabrication.





Regarding the "fabrication", Isn't it a shame that we can become soooo embroiled in these debates over DOCTRINES THAT HAVE NOT BEARING *WHAT SO EVER* ON ONES OBTAINING SALVATION, that even such a charge of willful "fabrication" can be leveled, much less be true?  Are we THAT lost in that we have forgotten what's important?

It's no wonder many outside the church look at us with disdain and contempt.  Why would any reasonably sane person ever want to ever even consider becoming a part such a drama club.  I promise you they have enough problems of their own; problems we are supposed to be able provide answers to.  Why enlist for more by going to Church?  

Just another public example of us "Lights to the World" being oh so worldly.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm sorry. I started a point about a straw man argument and just left it out there without finishing my point.
> 
> The straw man argument some make is that since preterist believe the judgement came in 70 ad , then we believe there is no more judgement. This is just not true. I will however submit that there is a fringe element and I mean very few idiots that go around claiming to be preterist that do take that approach. One you can probably find on the internet goes by the name of rivers of eden. He's an embarrasment to us, so I might as well point him out before someone comes in here saying "ya'll believe what"?
> 
> As for how this judgement works...my answer to your questions is yes, thats what Im saying.



How do most futurist answer the concept of a future Judgement Day if we are judged individually at our physical death? We can't go be with Jesus in paradise if we aren't judged.
In that sense most Preterist and Futurist believe in this same concept of judgement at physical death. 
Also when we past from this physical death and see Jesus, we will see him as he really is. Then we will be like him. When he appears in Paradise.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> That one almost went over my head.


 He's invited me to hunt at his place with my 375 H&H.  And I have to bring my ob for the campfire. LOL


----------



## hummerpoo (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Here's the largest portion of the text I can find to get the context. If you can find and deem it necessary to post a larger portion I will gladly look it over for context as well.
> 
> “Say what you like,” we shall be told, “the apocalyptic beliefs of the first Christians have been proved to be false. It is clear from the New Testament that they all expected the Second Coming in their own lifetime. And worse still, they had a reason, and one which you will find very embarrassing. Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, ‘this generation shall not pass till all these things be done.’ And he was wrong. He clearly knew no more about the end of the world than anyone else.”
> It is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible. Yet how teasing, also, that within fourteen words of it should come the statement “But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” The one exhibition of error and the one confession of ignorance grow side by side. That they stood thus in the mouth of Jesus himself, and were not merely placed thus by the reporter, we surely need not doubt. Unless the reporter were perfectly honest he would never have recorded the confession of ignorance at all; he could have had no motive for doing so except a desire to tell the whole truth. And unless later copyists were equally honest they would never have preserved the (apparently) mistaken prediction about “this generation” after the passage of time had shown the (apparent) mistake. This passage (Mark 13:30-32) and the cry “Why hast thou forsaken me?” (Mark 15:34)together make up the strongest proof that the New Testament is historically reliable. The evangelists have the first great characteristic of honest witnesses: they mention facts which are, at first sight, damaging to their main contention.
> ...



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=827263&page=3

You were given the context in post #56


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I am blessed beyond measure and have all the wealth I could ever need in my Savior. However I cannot afford to send you on an african safari for buffalo, but you are welcome to bring your buffalo rifle to my house and hunt all you want....oh, yeah it's byob too.



Are you too old to go to lawyering school? I mean a man must have dreams...right?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Context is not Preterism's forte. Sometimes I wonder if they co-exist anywhere.


 
 Example please, or you're just making a false claim.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=827263&page=3
> 
> You were given the context in post #56


 
 I remember that and thanks for the link to it.  I stand by the context I presented.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 14, 2015)

what do you believe the fig tree in vs 28 represents?

isn't it the generation that sees the fig putting on leaves that will not pass before He returns?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do most futurist answer the concept of a future Judgement Day if we are judged individually at our physical death? We can't go be with Jesus in paradise if we aren't judged.
> In that sense most Preterist and Futurist believe in this same concept of judgement at physical death.
> Also when we past from this physical death and see Jesus, we will see him as he really is. Then we will be like him. When he appears in Paradise.


 
Art, Im not sure which futurist idea would be considered "most" . I have been told by men in church that we all go into heaven together on the last day. They believe that judgement is where they recieve crowns for being so good. They also believe that Christ has not been crowned King of Kings yet. 

For the most part our soteriology does not change with our eschatology. Mine hasn't anyway. Many of my preterist friends are out of the church of Christ or the reformed theology. Im one of the few Baptist, and I even know a couple of Catholic preterists. I say that to say,' I can't give you a 100% true answer on how preterist view their judgement. The church of Christ guys are still going to demand water baptism and the reformed theology guys are going to demand predestination...and me, I think my judgement passed in august of 1984 at a little ole country church in north ga.

Paradise? Now I can say preterist realize paradise is long gone . It ended when Christ gave us eternal life.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> what do you believe the fig tree in vs 28 represents?
> 
> isn't it the generation that sees the fig putting on leaves that will not pass before He returns?


 
Mark 13:28?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Hobbs,I'm pretty sure he loves the same God that you and I love,based on past conversations.
> 
> He used the word "sapient",meaning" human".



Sorry welder, but that's not the definition I meant, even though that is one definition



More along the lines of:

Sapient - wise, possessing common sense.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 14, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Regarding the "fabrication", Isn't it a shame that we can become soooo embroiled in these debates over DOCTRINES THAT HAVE NOT BEARING *WHAT SO EVER* ON ONES OBTAINING SALVATION, that even such a charge of willful "fabrication" can be leveled, much less be true.  Are we THAT lost in that we have forgotten what's important?
> 
> It's no wonder many outside the church look at us with disdain and contempt.  Why would any reasonably sane person ever want to ever even consider becoming a part such a drama club.  I promise you they have enough problems of their own; problems we are supposed to be able provide answers to.  Why enlist for more by going to Church?
> 
> Just another public example of us "Lights to the World" being oh so worldly.



Other than believing Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, there isn't much doctrine that pertains to one's salvation.
Why we are debating this topic is because the 2nd coming of Jesus has always been a big part of Christianity. Maybe it shouldn't be as it doesn't really have much to do with salvation. If one is saved, he'll go meet the Lord in Paradise when he dies a physical death. 

I've seen it on signs nailed to trees in South Georgia; "Repent, the end is near." It's like for a long time Christians imagined this "end times" second coming of Jesus when all Judgement will take place. The dead must sleep in the ground and wait for Christ to call them to the sky. There are about 5 various scenarios for this "end times" event. Then at some point is an actual "Judgement Day." 
At some point I forgot to mention the souls in Heaven or Paradise will come back with Jesus and be re-installed back into their changed and renewed physical bodies. Then make the return trip back to Heaven or the first trip if they were soul sleeping perhaps before or after the Tribulation or Jesus' Earthly reign as an actual King. Then they can really enjoy seeing Jesus face to face as they can then see Jesus as he really is and will finally become like him.

Other than that, it's not really important. It doesn't pertain any more to salvation than trying to figure out if Jesus is his Father.

I guess the important aspect of this argument for me is if the afterlife is spiritual or physical. When I see Jesus for what he really is as 1 John 3:2 specifies, I will become like him. 

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, we are already God's children, but he has not yet shown us what we will be like when Christ appears. But we do know that we will be like him, for we will see him as he really is.

If the 2nd coming is in the future, what difference does it make as most of us will already be dead. We'll already be in Paradise or He11.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Example please, or you're just making a false claim.



No Thanks.  Just dropped bye after a couple months hiatus.  Already had my fill of absurdity.  May head down stairs to the AAA forum to say Hi.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No Thanks. Just dropped bye after a couple months hiatus. Already had my fill of absurdity. May head down stairs to the AAA forum to say Hi.


 
You ever find anything you think will stick, please run it by me. I'm always looking to learn more.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Mark 13:28?



isn't that the scripture you have been quoting all this time, or perhaps I missed something.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Other than believing Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins, there isn't much doctrine that pertains to one's salvation.
> Why we are debating this topic is because the 2nd coming of Jesus has always been a big part of Christianity. Maybe it shouldn't be as it doesn't really have much to do with salvation. If one is saved, he'll go meet the Lord in Paradise when he dies a physical death.
> 
> I've seen it on signs nailed to trees in South Georgia; "Repent, the end is near." It's like for a long time Christians imagined this "end times" second coming of Jesus when all Judgement will take place. The dead must sleep in the ground and wait for Christ to call them to the sky. There are about 5 various scenarios for this "end times" event. Then at some point is an actual "Judgement Day."
> ...


 

Art, the importance of it is getting the truth. When you have truth, false doctrines fall apart. Preterism kills JW's, They rely on a person being futurist to spread their false gospels.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> isn't that the scripture you have been quoting all this time, or perhaps I missed something.


 

Ok , just making sure. I was actually in matthew 24 but same olivet discourse.


<SUP class=versenum>28 </SUP>Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
<SUP class=versenum>29 </SUP>So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
<SUP class=versenum>30 </SUP>Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

I see Him giving it as an example, after He has given signs to look for this parable shows the season is near and He goes on and says to them, So YE ...when YE....I say unto YOU...   See the audience relevance there. He didn't say this is something to write down for future generations will need to know it, He was telling them what to look for and telling them it was going to happen in their generation.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Ok , just making sure. I was actually in matthew 24 but same olivet discourse.
> 
> 
> <SUP class=versenum>28 </SUP>Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
> ...




wasn't it always the people he was speaking to that he addressed?   I don't recall him saying "when the ones in the 21st century".   

I think this is a very weak argument that He was speaking to the ones who would see the fig leave.  You have to define what the fig leave is to determine to whom He was speaking.  

If Jesus returned in 70AD, why have we not seen vs 24 fulfilled?   The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. Stars will be cast down from heaven, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> wasn't it always the people he was speaking to that he addressed? I don't recall him saying "when the ones in the 21st century".



 Well, yes you're right. He didn't need to address any of us though because His prophecies were coming in their generation..Look at Daniel 8:26  Daniel is told to seal up his prophecy The time was far off. But then John is told in Revelation 22:10 not to seal up his words for the time was near. So God made it known if His prophecy was truly near or distant.



> I think this is a very weak argument that He was speaking to the ones who would see the fig leave. You have to define what the fig leave is to determine to whom He was speaking.
> 
> If Jesus returned in 70AD, why have we not seen vs 24 fulfilled? The sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light. Stars will be cast down from heaven, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.


 
vs. 24 is apocalyptic language we see used in prophecies of judgement such as this.

 Look at Isaiah 34 for instance, this was about Edom, and it's destruction that came around 312 bc, Notice the exaggerated language. This was common for the Jewish culture to do this.


34 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.
<SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>For the indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.
<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.
<SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.
<SUP class=versenum>5 </SUP>For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.
<SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP>The sword of the Lord is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the Lord hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.
<SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
<SUP class=versenum>8 </SUP>For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
<SUP class=versenum>9 </SUP>And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
<SUP class=versenum>10 </SUP>It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
<SUP class=versenum>11 </SUP>But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.
<SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.
<SUP class=versenum>13 </SUP>And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.
<SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.
<SUP class=versenum>15 </SUP>There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.
<SUP class=versenum>16 </SUP>Seek ye out of the book of the Lord, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.
<SUP class=versenum>17 </SUP>And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.


http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2005/09-24.htm


----------



## hummerpoo (Jun 14, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I remember that and thanks for the link to it.  I stand by the context I presented.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


>


 

Shazaam!!


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Are you too old to go to lawyering school? I mean a man must have dreams...right?


 
 My mama forbade it, said," No son of mine is ever going to be a lawyer, they are paid liars." I think I would have enjoyed helping people though, I get my chance every once in a blue moon serving jury duty.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

No where does the bible say that the world will end. It speaks of two ages, the old covenant age and the age to come ( New Covenant). The KJV mistakenly translated age for world. This is very unfortunate.

Matthew 24:21 shows us that time will indeed exist after the great tribulation...We are proof of that, for it came on Jerusalem already.

Ephesians 3:21 commands world without end. Amen!

 So now we know cause the bible tells us so, any man predicting a end of time event is indeed a false prophet...Hal Lindsey comes to mind.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> No where does the bible say that the world will end. It speaks of two ages, the old covenant age and the age to come ( New Covenant). The KJV mistakenly translated age for world. This is very unfortunate.
> 
> Matthew 24:21 shows us that time will indeed exist after the great tribulation...We are proof of that, for it came on Jerusalem already.
> 
> ...



What verse is the bad translation in?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What verse is the bad translation in?




Matthew 24:3


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

Can't be divided


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 24:3



Yes I see that. Other than parallel verses to this one in Luke or Mark, are there any other verses that Futurist have used to determine the end of the world? I'm assuming they haven't based the world coming to an end on just the Olivet Discourse.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes I see that. Other than parallel verses to this one in Luke or Mark, are there any other verses that Futurist have used to determine the end of the world? I'm assuming they haven't based the world coming to an end on just the Olivet Discourse.



Their whole mindset is end of world, so every bit of script that has to do with the consummation of the old covenant age they think it's concerning the physical universe.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

34"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 35"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

I understand "this generation will not pass" but how do you explain "Heaven & earth will pass away?" That sounds like an "end of the world."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Will you embed this for me art, I can't do it from my phone?
> 
> When futurist can't explain scripture they say it's a mystery, well here's some mysteries solved by a partial preterist concerning Revelation.
> https://youtu.be/lLLE4srpZOA


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Their whole mindset is end of world, so every bit of script that has to do with the consummation of the old covenant age they think it's concerning the physical universe.



I googled "end of the world" verses and the list I found was pretty vague. I guess if you were in the right mindset.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> No where does the bible say that the world will end. It speaks of two ages, the old covenant age and the age to come ( New Covenant). The KJV mistakenly translated age for world. This is very unfortunate.
> 
> Matthew 24:21 shows us that time will indeed exist after the great tribulation...We are proof of that, for it came on Jerusalem already.
> 
> ...




2 peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord is coming, and when it comes, it will be upon you like a thief. The heavens will vanish in a whirlwind, the elements will be scorched up and dissolve, earth, and all earth’s achievements, will burn away.




2 Peter 3:10-13King James Version (KJV)

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.


*Note that in other languages the words for "burned up" are consumed and discovered.   Never the less... What do  you make of KJV?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> 2 peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord is coming, and when it comes, it will be upon you like a thief. The heavens will vanish in a whirlwind, the elements will be scorched up and dissolve, earth, and all earth’s achievements, will burn away.
> 
> 2 Peter 3:10-13King James Version (KJV)
> 
> ...



When is "the day of the Lord?" I'm assuming it must be after his 1000 year rule on the Earth.

At some point the Moon turns to blood.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> 2 peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord is coming, and when it comes, it will be upon you like a thief. The heavens will vanish in a whirlwind, the elements will be scorched up and dissolve, earth, and all earth’s achievements, will burn away.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Elements.  The Greek word stoicheion used also in Gal. 4:3 ,9-10 Col 2:8, 20-21, Heb 5:12-14.

Peter is saying the false elements of Judaism were about to be consumed .


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Elements.  The Greek word stoicheion used also in Gal. 4:3 ,9-10 Col 2:8, 20-21, Heb 5:12-14.
> 
> Peter is saying the false elements of Judaism were about to be consumed .



Continue also in explanation of "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Continue also in explanation of "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."



Many times the heavens and earth and sea are represented as the temple and Jewish economy. Here's a link to explain 2 Peter 3.   http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/russ-ap2o.html

Btw, this is from a non preterist in the 1600's


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

Who was the anti-Christ in 70 AD ?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Who was the anti-Christ in 70 AD ?



I could speculate, but I don't think scripture tells us for sure. What scripture does tell us in 1John 2:18 is that John knew they were in the last hour because they were told of the anti Christ coming at the last day, and many had come.
 I suggest the many are the ones Jesus was referring to when he said many false Christ would come.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Elements.  The Greek word stoicheion used also in Gal. 4:3 ,9-10 Col 2:8, 20-21, Heb 5:12-14.
> 
> Peter is saying the false elements of Judaism were about to be consumed .



Your point that no where does the bible say that the world will end. 

"No where in the bible did it say the  world would end. "

I show you that it does,"The heavens will vanish in a whirlwind, the elements will be scorched up and dissolve, earth, and all earth’s achievements, will burn away."
 "  and you say that this  does not mean that it will end.

 I bet I can find fifteen different interpretations of what it means, nevertheless it says the earth is a gonner... as it will burn away...

???


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

Did you read the sermon in the link on post 73?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I could speculate, but I don't think scripture tells us for sure. What scripture does tell us in 1John 2:18 is that John knew they were in the last hour because they were told of the anti Christ coming at the last day, and many had come.
> I suggest the many are the ones Jesus was referring to when he said many false Christ would come.



2 Thess.2:3 says the end will not come until the son of perdition be revealed.
Is the son of perdition ,spoken of here,the antichrist? I believe it is.

If you do a study of the antichrist, I think you may find that he is an actual person and that he hasn't yet come.


----------



## Huntinfool (Jun 15, 2015)

o....m....g


----------



## centerpin fan (Jun 15, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> o....m....g




Not to be confused with OMC:


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> 2 Thess.2:3 says the end will not come until the son of perdition be revealed.
> Is the son of perdition ,spoken of here,the antichrist? I believe it is.
> 
> If you do a study of the antichrist, I think you may find that he is an actual person and that he hasn't yet come.


 
So if what you say is true, how do you suppose John; an Apostle inspired by the Holy Spirit, lied in this verse?

 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Your point that no where does the bible say that the world will end.
> 
> "No where in the bible did it say the world would end. "
> 
> ...


 

<TABLE style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" class=tborder border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR title="Post 9537845" vAlign=top><TD class=alt2 width=125 align=center>hobbs27</TD><TD class=alt1>Did you read the sermon in the link on post 73? </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
I will work at this as hard as I must to show, I'm not just overlooking it or side stepping it. I have studied this before, I have one book soley dedicated to 2 peter 3. Other than the exegesis by Owens that I linked in post 73, I also have some more exegetical works on 2 peter 3. This one comes from kurt simmons in his book, "the consummation of the ages"

" The fashion of this world passeth away"

_A good deal of confusion about the manner of Christ's second coming stems from a fundamental misunderstanding concerning the nature of the world that was to suffer dissolution and the nature of the world that would take its place. It is clear from the Olivet Discourse that the world that was passing away was intimately connected to the city and temple of Jerusalem.

And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
<SUP class=versenum>2 </SUP>And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?(Matt.24:1-3)

To English speaking persons, "world" often carries connotations of the inhabited earth. Hence, the "end of the world" suggests the utter destruction of every living thing for all time. However, this is to greatly mistake Biblical usage of the word. A world would pass away in the events culminating in the destruction of the city and temple, but not the world. The immediate world marked for destruction was the world of the Jews. The Jews had existed as a nation for approximately 1200 years. The ordinances of the mosaic law, the monarchy and priesthood, the temple, together with its furniture and service, the manners, customs, and traditions that had grown up over the long centuries were the elements of the Old Testament world, the habitation and abode of the Jews. These all were to be suddenly for all time swept away; wiped forever from the face of the earth like food and off-scouring from a plate.

 The ordinances of the law were the ' weak and beggarly elements" Gal. 4:3,9 of the Mosaic dispensation, the "first principles of the oracles of God" Heb.5:12, the "priciples" or elementary teachings of the doctrine of Christ. Heb 6:1 They were the trappings of childhood, a schoolmaster to lead men to Christ. Gal. 3:24,25 For twelve hundred years, men had labored in bondage under the law without relief from the power of sin and death. Sin and death reigned from Adam to Moses (Rom. 5:14,17,21) It was impossible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins. Heb. 10:4 But Christ had entered the strong mans house and spoiled his goods Matt. 12:29;  Christ had spoiled the principality and power of sin and death, triumphing over them in His cross. Col 2:14,15 The ordinances of the law had waxed old and decayed, and were soon to vanish away, Heb. 8:13; the elements of the world would be dissolved and a new heavens and earth would assume their place 2 Peter 3:10-13; Rev. 21:1 The Hebrew writer speaks to this when he refers to the "world to come whereof we speak" Heb. 2:5; 6:5 In fact , the effects of the cross of Christ were so far reaching, his dominion so all compassing, that the fashion of the whole world was passing away. 1Cor 7:31 The Pagan world too would come under Christ's dominion; all nations would serve and obey Him; Christ would rule the nations with a rod of iron; like vessels of clay, they would be broken to shivers. Rev. 2:27 Thus, the world Christ spoke of in His olivet discourse was not the earth with it's chemical elements, but the ages that had been framed by the word of God, the Mosaic age with all its attendant circumstances._


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

Well, if Jesus did come back in 70AD, please show me where the Mt of Olives was split twain, one mountain to the north, and one to the south, and a valley opened between them.  Zech Chapter 14.

Surely Josephus would have written about that event.








I know, I know... Zech 14 is talking about something different or somebody different and it really doesn't mean what it says.


there.  I saved you the time responding to my silly post.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> So if what you say is true, how do you suppose John; an Apostle inspired by the Holy Spirit, lied in this verse?
> 
> Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.



There are many antichrists in the world and have been since Jesus was on the earth.1 John 4:3 affirms that.
But I'm concerned with the one Dan.11:21 and 7:25 prophecies of.
He's referred to as the beast in Rev.13.

Who is this one in particular, and how do you fit him into your 70 AD theory?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There are many antichrists in the world and have been since Jesus was on the earth.1 John 4:3 affirms that.
> But I'm concerned with the one Dan.11:21 and 7:25 prophecies of.
> He's referred to as the beast in Rev.13.
> 
> Who is this one in particular, and how do you fit him into your 70 AD theory?


 
The beast in rev 13 is Rome and Nero as the leader. Nero name matches the 666 symbol. 

 Rome persecuted Christians.

See Jerusalem was the Harlot, she played the Harlot with Rome, when they said, We have no king but ceaser. Jerusalem being the wife of God cheated on Him with Rome, making her the Harlot, thats the way all this ties into 70ad..days of vengance.

Also I noticed you avoided the question about John lying that they were in the last hour...have an answer?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Well, if Jesus did come back in 70AD, please show me where the Mt of Olives was split twain, one mountain to the north, and one to the south, and a valley opened between them. Zech Chapter 14.
> 
> Surely Josephus would have written about that event.
> 
> ...


 

 This guy Daniel has been working pretty hard looking throughout history and making a case for some literal fulfillments. This is his work on your question.


Daniel Morais[/URL]
[/B]


The Mount of Olives was/is TRULY SPLIT in TWO from East to West! Below is a 120 yr old photo of the Mt of Olives. Notice the Valley cutting through the middle of the Mt such that it appears cut in half almost like two separate mts. Running through this valley was a first century Roman road.
APOCALYPTIC IMAGERY IS MORE LITERAL THAN U MIGHT THINK (PART 4)!
4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. . . . (Saints fled to Pella)…5 Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him. (Zech 14:4-5)
In Deuteronomy 33:2, Moses revealed to the people that when God descended on Mount Sinai He came with a myriad of his holy ones. Christ’s return to descend on the Mt of Olives mirrors this appearance. Like the God of Israel’s descent on Mount Sinai, Christ also comes on a cloud (the Glory Cloud) in the company of the heavenly host. As explained in my previous posts on Parousia Week I discussed a few of the various appearances of Christ around the time of the Jewish War and shortly thereafter at the death of Vespasian. One of which was a vision of armies of angels in the clouds in A.D. 66 recorded by Tacitus and Josephus. Expounding upon this army of angels of A.D. 66, the medieval historian Sepher Yosippon writes, “Moreover, in those days were seen chariots of fire and horsemen, a great force flying across the sky NEAR TO THE GROUND coming against Jerusalem and all the land of Judah, all of them horses of fire and riders of fire.” ( Sepher Yosippon A Mediaeval History of Ancient Israel translated from the Hebrew by Steven B. Bowman. Excerpts from Chapter 87 "Burning of the Temple") Notice that Yosippon says that this army flew near to the ground around Jerusalem. While at the head of this army did Jesus touch down on the Mt. of Olives outside of Jerusalem when he flew near to the ground with His army around Jerusalem? If so then one can appreciate the literal fulfillment of v. 4: “On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem[.]”
Ernest L. Martin has also suggested that the Glory Cloud departed from the Temple and descended on the Mt of Olives at the start of the Jewish War. Though I am not 100% convinced by the historical testimony it is certainly something worth considering. Predictions like Zechariah 14:4 concerning the splitting of the Mt. of Olives is written in apocalyptic style. Apocalyptic language like that which is found in Zechariah 14:4, Isaiah 26:7, Isaiah 40:4, Isaiah 49:11 and Micah 1:3-6 is highly symbolic and therefore often hyperbolic. Apocalyptic language typically describes real-world events in poetic language. This poetic style can often be hyperbolic because these poetic expressions mean something. For example as stated in Part 2 of this series, the fact that mountains were to be lowered and valleys raised (in the 6th century B.C. and during the Jewish War as a natural consequence of siege warfare) is a symbolic expression denoting exaltation and humility. It also implies that the earth is destroyed and reverted back to the formless and void (flat) state of the earth before it creation in Genesis 1. 
Zechariah 14:4-5 appears to be describing the exodus of the Christians out of Jerusalem before the start of the war with Rome wrapped-up in symbolism similar to that used to describe the exodus of the Jews out of Babylon. The phraseology used in these verses in which the Mount of Olives is split in two is comparable to the figurative language found in Isaiah 26:7, Isaiah 40:4 and Isaiah 49:11. In these verses, the valleys are raised up and the mountains are laid low to allow the righteous to return from exile on level ground. God promised level passage to the righteous, in these verses God remembers his promise. 

The splitting of the Mount of Olives also hints at the miracle of the parting of the Red Sea. Waters and mountain are both Biblical symbols for a kingdom (Revelation 17:15, Psalms 2:6, Psalms 48:1, Isaiah 66:20, Jeremiah 51:25, Joel 3:17). The fact that the Mount of Olives is split in half is a physical manifestation or symbol of the fact that according to Zech 14:2, “[h]alf of the city [or mountain of Jerusalem] will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.” The same symbolic message is inherent in the miracle of the parting of the Red Sea. With the departure of the Jewish slaves from Egypt, Egypt, as is illustrated by the parting of the waters, is a divided kingdom.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The beast in rev 13 is Rome and Nero as the leader. Nero name matches the 666 symbol.
> 
> Rome persecuted Christians.
> 
> ...



I did answer it.Maybe I was too vague.sorry.
What I'm saying is "last hour" is same as last days, or last age.We've been in the last days since the first century.
John did not lie about anything In these verses.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> This guy Daniel has been working pretty hard looking throughout history and making a case for some literal fulfillments. This is his work on your question.
> 
> 
> Daniel Morais[/URL]
> ...




Sorry to bust your bubble, but I have been to the Mount of Olives, and it is all in one piece, with no East/West valley.  At  least as of March 9th, 2015


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> I did answer it.Maybe I was too vague.sorry.
> What I'm saying is "last hour" is same as last days, or last age.We've been in the last days since the first century.
> John did not lie about anything In these verses.


 
 We've been in the last days...hours for almost 2,000 years? Has the end been at hand, near, and "mello" about to come  for 2,000 years also?

 Does, in this generation mean that we have 2,000 year old generation still roaming around? 

 I know these time statements are something futurist pay little attention to but they are there.. over 101 of them in the new testament speaking of His coming being soon, near, at hand, in the last days, the last hour etc. etc.  Guess they just ring out to me and not others.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Sorry to bust your bubble, but I have been to the Mount of Olives, and it is all in one piece, with no East/West valley. At least as of March 9th, 2015


 
 You aren't busting my bubble. I saw Daniels work recently and thought you might enjoy it more than my answer since he involves literal happenings.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

Here is you a current picture of the Mount. 

No valley.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> We've been in the last days...hours for almost 2,000 years? Has the end been at hand, near, and "mello" about to come  for 2,000 years also?
> 
> Does, in this generation mean that we have 2,000 year old generation still roaming around?
> 
> I know these time statements are something futurist pay little attention to but they are there.. over 101 of them in the new testament speaking of His coming being soon, near, at hand, in the last days, the last hour etc. etc.  Guess they just ring out to me and not others.



As I stated to you days ago,"this generation" is speaking of the destruction of the temple, but it's foreshadowing the destruction of the world.

I also stated "last days" is last age.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Here is you a current picture of the Mount.
> 
> No valley.


 
 While you were there did you vist the valley of hinnom?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> As I stated to you days ago,"this generation" is speaking of the destruction of the temple, but it's foreshadowing the destruction of the world.
> 
> I also stated "last days" is last age.


 
 So from the cross to now we are in the last age, New Covenant, according to your beliefs ..Correct?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> So from the cross to now we are in the last age, New Covenant, according to your beliefs ..Correct?



Correct.The covenant of grace.His laws are written in our hearts.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Correct.The covenant of grace.His laws are written in our hearts.


 
 I agree the new age began at the cross, but the old age did not expire at the cross. Proof of this is Hebrews 8.

How do you explain 8:13 that fits my belief to a tee?

*13* In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

See the old covenant was growing old and ready to vanish away{70ad}. 

 That was the end of the age spoken of all through the new testament.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)




----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> As I stated to you days ago,"this generation" is speaking of the destruction of the temple, but it's foreshadowing the destruction of the world.
> 
> I also stated "last days" is last age.



Why has people needed immediate warning for so many years about the end of the world? Why is it so important to most individuals who are already dead in the ground? 
Have you read some of these warnings of immediate doom?
If God warns you to get out of town because he is going to burn the whole town is something you can escape. How can one escape the end of the world?

Is there any scripture that backs up the foreshadowing you believe in?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I agree the new age began at the cross, but the old age did not expire at the cross. Proof of this is Hebrews 8.
> 
> How do you explain 8:13 that fits my belief to a tee?
> 
> ...



Yes.I agree with you on this.The beginning of the end was when the veil was rent in twain at Jesus' death.The daily sacrifice in the temple came to an end when the temple was destroyed and when Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the alter.

I think where we part ways is when you say that Jesus came back in AD70.

Do you believe He came back physically or spiritually?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Yes.I agree with you on this.The beginning of the end was when the veil was rent in twain at Jesus' death.The daily sacrifice in the temple came to an end when the temple was destroyed and when Antiochus Epiphanes sacrificed a pig on the alter.
> 
> I think where we part ways is when you say that Jesus came back in AD70.
> 
> Do you believe He came back physically or spiritually?


 
 He came just as His father came in the OT, on the clouds. Which is spiritually and in like manner as the way He ascended, He disappeared and was taken away on a cloud. Like Father Like Son.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> He came just as His father came in the OT, on the clouds. Which is spiritually and in like manner as the way He ascended, He disappeared and was taken away on a cloud. Like Father Like Son.



There's one problem I see with that: I didn't see Him.And ,correct me if I'm wrong,but I don't think you did either.

My bible tells me that every eye shall see Him when He returns.

Am I missing something?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There's one problem I see with that: I didn't see Him.And ,correct me if I'm wrong,but I don't think you did either.
> 
> My bible tells me that every eye shall see Him when He returns.
> 
> Am I missing something?



1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

If Christ has already returned, now and not yet is no longer prevalent.
But if we see Christ in Paradise, won't we see Christ as he is? Won't this be before Christ appears?
Can you eyeball Jesus in Paradise enough to see him as he is? Even without eyes?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There's one problem I see with that: I didn't see Him.And ,correct me if I'm wrong,but I don't think you did either.
> 
> My bible tells me that every eye shall see Him when He returns.
> 
> Am I missing something?



You weren't born in 70AD. But when Jesus returns in the future, will the souls in He!! come back to earth to see the event? Must they too return to their bodies in order to eyeball this event? I do understand that at this future event, no body else will be born, thus every eye will see. Even the dead. The confusing part is the souls in he!!. They must return for a body to see this event. If you gonna need a body in Heaven, you'll need a body in He!!.
Unless He11 is eternal death.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> There's one problem I see with that: I didn't see Him.And ,correct me if I'm wrong,but I don't think you did either.
> 
> My bible tells me that every eye shall see Him when He returns.
> 
> Am I missing something?



Yes you are missing the main point. Of course not every eye throughout history could see Him. Many have died, many haven't been born yet, but the part you fail to see is " even those that pierced him".  That puts it back in that first century generation.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> While you were there did you vist the valley of hinnom?



Yes, on the other side of Jerusalem, and the Cheesemaker valley that splits east and west Jerusalem, and the Kidon Valley at the foot of the Mount of Olives and runs all the way to the Dead Sea.

Where  Gehenna and Kidron meet is the Field of Blood where Judas killed himself.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Yes, on the other side of Jerusalem, and the Cheesemaker valley that splits east and west Jerusalem, and the Kidon Valley at the foot of the Mount of Olives and runs all the way to the Dead Sea.
> 
> Where Gehenna and Kidron meet is the Field of Blood where Judas killed himself.


 
 So you have literally been to he!! and back. Thats cool!


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 3:2
> Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
> 
> If Christ has already returned, now and not yet is no longer prevalent.
> ...


 
 Art what makes up Christ's body and is it visible?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes you are missing the main point. Of course not every eye throughout history could see Him. Many have died, many haven't been born yet, but the part you fail to see is " even those that pierced him".  That puts it back in that first century generation.



Those that pierced Him are part of the "every eye" that will see Him.

Again,Job tells us when his redeemer stands on the earth at the latter day,he will,in his FLESH,see Him.

Job 19:25-27
"For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me."


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Those that pierced Him are part of the "every eye" that will see Him.
> 
> Again,Job tells us when his redeemer stands on the earth at the latter day,he will,in his FLESH,see Him.
> 
> ...


 



Here's that latter day we are still in , even though Christ hasnt stood on the earth in almost 2,000 years.

Again,Job tells us when his redeemer stands on the earth at the latter day


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Here's that latter day we are still in , even though Christ hasnt stood on the earth in almost 2,000 years.
> 
> Again,Job tells us when his redeemer stands on the earth at the latter day



How did Job see Him in his flesh?
He did not live in the latter day.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art what makes up Christ's body and is it visible?



So in or after 70AD we finally became as Jesus because Christ's body is the Church. We finally saw Christ as he really is, the Church.

Maybe Welderguy will tell us his belief on when we will see Christ as he is and be like Christ.
I'd like some input from other's as well.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

Job was alive, is alive and will always live.  Just as you and I and every other soul


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> So you have literally been to he!! and back. Thats cool!



you do know that Caiaphas house is just a hop skip and a jump from Gehenna, right?    It is about 300 yards outside the Zion Gate and about 200 yards from the Gehenna Valley.

If you ever get a chance to tour Jerusalem, do it.  It is eye opening the things you learn there.


One of the most interesting oddities I saw was Hezekiah's tunnel.  It is amazing how they made that tunnel meet under ground.   and of course the Western Wall, and how you can travel tunnels underground all the way to the carved wall of the fort on the temple mount.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

welderguy said:


> How did Job see Him in his flesh?
> He did not live in the latter day.


 
 Job is saying he will see him while he is still alive and still in his flesh. Not once the worms have eaten his flesh.

Job then does see him with his own eyes in a whirlwind in ch 38:1

 So..Not a physical resurrection text.

 Good night , ya'll I'll try to catch up with you tomorrow sometime.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you do know that Caiaphas house is just a hop skip and a jump from Gehenna, right? It is about 300 yards outside the Zion Gate and about 200 yards from the Gehenna Valley.
> 
> If you ever get a chance to tour Jerusalem, do it. It is eye opening the things you learn there.
> 
> ...


 
 Sounds like a good trip, just wish there was peace over there. maybe someday.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Jun 15, 2015)

there will never be peace there until the muslims are wiped out.   

It is much safer there for tourist than it is in downtown Hotlanter


----------



## welderguy (Jun 15, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> So in or after 70AD we finally became as Jesus because Christ's body is the Church. We finally saw Christ as he really is, the Church.
> 
> Maybe Welderguy will tell us his belief on when we will see Christ as he is and be like Christ.
> I'd like some input from other's as well.




1 Cor.13:9-12
" For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
 But when that which is perfect is come,then that which is in part shall be done away.
 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."


I believe when the perfect One comes,we will literally and physically see Him face to face.And then,and only then,(after we've been changed into our glorified,sinless bodies)we will have the ability to "know even as we are known.

We can't "know" that perfectly yet because we are limited by our sin nature,thus we see through the dark glass.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jun 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> So in or after 70AD we finally became as Jesus because Christ's body is the Church. We finally saw Christ as he really is, the Church.
> 
> Maybe Welderguy will tell us his belief on when we will see Christ as he is and be like Christ.
> I'd like some input from other's as well.



In the words of Paul the Church as the mystical body of Christ existed before the Temple came tumbling down.


1 Corinthians 12:

13 We too, all of us, have been baptized into a single body by the power of a single Spirit, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free men alike; we have all been given drink at a single source, the one Spirit.

.....

 27 And you are Christ’s body, organs of it depending upon each other.[2] 28 God has given us different positions in the church;....


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> 1 Cor.13:9-12
> " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
> But when that which is perfect is come,then that which is in part shall be done away.
> When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
> ...



You said we would go to be with Christ in Paradise when we die a physical death. This will probably be before his 2nd coming or at least it has been for many. Did they not see Christ as he is? I don't see how one can be with Christ in a spiritual Paradise and not see Christ as he is.
Can't face to face be just a figure of speech as two spirits see each other face to face? Can't the world be something other than Earth? Doesn't God have eyes? Where is Jesus going to get literal horses for his return trip? Do you see all of Revelation as literal? do you see all of scripture as literal?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> In the words of Paul the Church as the mystical body of Christ existed before the Temple came tumbling down.
> 
> 
> 1 Corinthians 12:
> ...



I understand all of that but when Jesus appears we will see him as he is and become like him. Is this the Church? We will become the Church when Christ appears and become the Church? That is the mystery? 
Now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. We will not know until Christ appears, then we will see him as he is and become like him. When will this appearance be or has it been already?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2015)

Will we receive our salvation from eternal death at the moment of our physical death or at the 2nd coming? What great element does the future 2nd coming hold for Christians? What are we waiting for that is different from our salvation from eternal death?
How is our individual spiritual resurrection different form this future one time for all physical resurrection?
Must we see Jesus face to face physically at this 2nd coming to finally see Christ as he is? Must we wait until his 2nd coming to finally become like Jesus? What does this have to do with the physical vs. the spiritual?
Must we have physical eyes to see?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2015)

Wow.Lots of questions.

The thief on the cross went that very day to paradise and was with Jesus.His spirit went, that is, but his body no doubt was thrown outside the gates of the city by the Roman soldiers. 

Paul said absent from the body is present with the Lord.

So, we know in surety where the spirit of the elect go immediately upon their death.We also know the body returns to dust after death.

We also know that no man has seen the Father at any time.

But, somehow, Job is going to see his redeemer with his own fleshly eyes when He stands upon the earth on the latter day.

Those who pierced Him will see Him, Job will see Him, and it even says every eye shall see Him.
I believe I will see Him also.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Wow.Lots of questions.
> 
> The thief on the cross went that very day to paradise and was with Jesus.His spirit went, that is, but his body no doubt was thrown outside the gates of the city by the Roman soldiers.
> 
> ...



If Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father , how is it in your understanding that we can be present with Jesus but not with the Father in heaven.
 Im assuming here that you have applied the proper definition of paradise as an abode for the righteous, and not heaven?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Wow.Lots of questions.
> 
> The thief on the cross went that very day to paradise and was with Jesus.His spirit went, that is, but his body no doubt was thrown outside the gates of the city by the Roman soldiers.
> 
> ...



Was the elected thief able to "see" or "eyeball" Jesus in Paradise? How does that stay in Paradise relate to 1 John 3:2?
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Did the elected thief see Jesus as he is or will he need to wait on the 2nd coming? Does the thief need to be as Job will be "in his flesh" in order to "see" Jesus and become as Jesus is? Will you see Jesus in Paradise or only at his 2nd coming?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2015)

Some what related but I just saw a blind lady tell someone "It's so nice to see you again." I'm somewhat amazed that people believe every scripture is literal. I'm pretty sure God can "see" me as I type. I believe this with all my "heart." God flooded the whole "world."
He did this by waving his "hand." In Revelation the beast has seven heads.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> If Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father , how is it in your understanding that we can be present with Jesus but not with the Father in heaven.
> Im assuming here that you have applied the proper definition of paradise as an abode for the righteous, and not heaven?



Ha.yeah, when I said "no man has seen the Father", I was going to make a point regarding something Art asked but I got sidetracked.
Certainly though, no man in his sinful body has seen God(the Father)and lived.
In paradise,our spirit will be where Jesus and His Father are.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Ha.yeah, when I said "no man has seen the Father", I was going to make a point regarding something Art asked but I got sidetracked.
> Certainly though, no man in his sinful body has seen God(the Father)and lived.
> In paradise,our spirit will be where Jesus and His Father are.



Is this paradise Heaven? Can we see Jesus as he really is and become like him? No man has seen God in his sinful body but has any man seen God when he dies a physical death and goes to paradise? Where Jesus and his Father are? What is this spiritual resurrection called? How does it differ from our future physical resurrection? When will we see Jesus and become as he is?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Ha.yeah, when I said "no man has seen the Father", I was going to make a point regarding something Art asked but I got sidetracked.
> Certainly though, no man in his sinful body has seen God(the Father)and lived.
> In paradise,our spirit will be where Jesus and His Father are.


 
Paradise is where the thief and Jesus went the day they died on the cross. The father is not, nor has ever been in Paradise. Paradise is Abrahams bosom, located in Hades..or "was" before Christ emptied it and gave us eternal life. It was a necessary place for the old covenant since we did not have eternal life yet.

Here's the biblical proof of what I say.

Luke 23:43And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and _to_ my God, and your God.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

Anyone want to explain why you believe Jesus gave you eternal life but you will some day be resurrected from the dead?


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Anyone want to explain why you believe Jesus gave you eternal life but you will some day be resurrected from the dead?



Because Jesus was resurrected, and He was the firstfruits from the dead. (Keyword first)


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Because Jesus was resurrected, and He was the firstfruits from the dead. (Keyword first)



From Adam. Which is where death came from. Jesus fixed that.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2015)

This mortal must put on immortality.

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall be changed.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Because Jesus was resurrected, and He was the firstfruits from the dead. (Keyword first)


 
 Jesus was not the first to be physically raised. Jesus was raised physically , I agree, but it was the spiritual raising that He was the firstfruits of.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 16, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus was not the first to be physically raised. Jesus was raised physically , I agree, but it was the spiritual raising that He was the firstfruits of.



This seems to contradict itself.Would you please elaborate a little more?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> This seems to contradict itself.Would you please elaborate a little more?


 "
Sure. I'll respond off the top of my head if you need any scripture references I can provide later.

God told Adam that "in the day" you eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you will surely die.

 In that day he died. He physically continued living , but spiritually he died when he was cast out of the garden. It was in the garden tha Adam lived , ie communed with God. 

From that day forth man could not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Man was put under the Law which exposed sin, and sin brought on death. Our sin seperated us from God..or brought the death of Adam upon us. (Notice I said above the indwelling) I know the Spirit fell upon men in the Old Covenant, but it was not until the New Covenant that the spirit would indwell.

 The witch of Endor raised Samuel, There was witches that had done that before as we are told Saul had outlawed the practice ...yet he was the one in need of it. Jesus raised Lazarus, and on the cross the earth did quake and many graves opened and the dead came out.  I know scripture says "after His resurrection" but the word resurrection translated from in that text is not a resurrection from death word. It's a word like rejuvinated or rousal or excitability... In other words between the 6 oclock and 9 oclock hours Jesus wasnt doing much on the cross then He lifted his head and shouted {rousal} He shouted My God, My God, Why hast thou forsaken me... At that very moment he took on the sins of the world and the Father separated from Him, That was the sin death or the death of Adam, This is the death in which he was the first fruits to resurrect from. He didn't die for His sins but ours! After this {rousal} The veil of the temple rent in two, The earth did quake...but those rough and tough Roman soldiers were probably still ok...but when those graves burst open and dead folks came out...They were exceedingly scared and said something to the affect " Surely this was the Son of God"  What else would have scared the bejesus out of them?

Jesus then went to the heart of the earth, As Jonah was in the belly of the whale for three days and nights so was the Son of man..Which is Paradise an abode for the dead righteous old covenant souls. He then led those captivities captive, and took them to the Father at His ascension.

This was all part of the atonement process. Our High priest made a sacrifice {Cross} Then went to the Holiest of Holies to present the sacrifice {Ascension}  Then returned in 70 AD with the captives, raised the dead in Christ from His ascension and spiritually joined them with the living in Christ...That was the High priest returning from the Holiest place of the Temple to announce Salvation { His Return}  We have our loved ones that have passed from the earthly life helping us spiritually in His kingdom today, along with the Angels. Its an unending, everlasting Kingdom!

We that are saved are inside the gates as in revelation 22..Believe it or not when we are saved we are back in the garden. We now have everlasting spiritual life and will not die and go to a grave or some other old covenant abode. We will indeed be with our Savior and the Father and Holy Ghost!

This is why the preterist line is straight from a to b and the futurist is all over the place.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> To convince me that the 2nd coming was in 70AD, I need convincing that I want have or need a physical resurrection;
> 
> Ezekiel 37:4-6
> 4Again He said to me, "Prophesy over these bones and say to them, 'O dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.' 5"Thus says the Lord GOD to these bones, 'Behold, I will cause breath to enter you that you may come to life. 6'I will put sinews on you, make flesh grow back on you, cover you with skin and put breath in you that you may come alive; and you will know that I am the LORD.'"


 

Art I presented this to a friend that was in a study on ezekiel at the time. He responded to your statement like this:

Tuese Ahkiong Just got through Ezekiel. Aiya! What an incredibly SYMBOLIC BOOK. Lots of great example of figurative, apocalyptic language.
Anyhu, some thoughts on chapter 37
Being outside the land of Israel or where God's presence was, Jerusalem, was likened to being DEAD.
Being brought back into the land or God's presence is likened to being brought back from THE DEAD, being RESURRECTED, having LIFE.
This is Life is in Christ.
Remember Ezekiel was written after fall of the northern kingdom by the Assyrians who scattered Israel and the fall and exile of the southern kingdom, Judah by the Babylonians.
The land that God is ultimately talking about returning His people, those who trust in Christ, is Himself. Ezekiel ends in chapter 48 with the last verse concluding the construction of a new city.
"48:35 The circumference of the city shall be 18,000 cubits. And the name of the city from that time on shall be, The Lord Is There.”
Ezekiel 37 
THE HAND OF THE LORD WAS UPON ME, AND HE BROUGHT ME OUT IN THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD AND SET ME DOWN IN THE MIDDLE OF THE VALLEY; IT WAS FULL OF BONES. 2 AND HE LED ME AROUND AMONG THEM, AND BEHOLD, THERE WERE VERY MANY ON THE SURFACE OF THE VALLEY, AND BEHOLD, THEY WERE VERY DRY. 3 AND HE SAID TO ME, “SON OF MAN, CAN THESE BONES LIVE?” And I answered, “O Lord GOD, you know.” 4 Then he said to me, “PROPHESY OVER THESE BONES, AND SAY TO THEM, O DRY BONES, HEAR THE WORD OF THE LORD.5 THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD TO THESE BONES: BEHOLD, I WILL CAUSE BREATH TO ENTER YOU, AND YOU SHALL LIVE.6 AND I WILL LAY SINEWS UPON YOU, AND WILL CAUSE FLESH TO COME UPON YOU, AND COVER YOU WITH SKIN, AND PUT BREATH IN YOU, AND YOU SHALL LIVE, AND YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD.”
7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling,and the bones came together, bone to its bone. 8 And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them.9 Then he said to me, “PROPHESY TO THE BREATH; PROPHESY, SON OF MAN, AND SAY TO THE BREATH, THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD: COME FROM THE FOUR WINDS, O BREATH, AND BREATHE ON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.”10 SO I PROPHESIED AS HE COMMANDED ME, AND THE BREATH CAME INTO THEM, AND THEY LIVED AND STOOD ON THEIR FEET, AN EXCEEDINGLY GREAT ARMY.
11 Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy, and say to them, THUS SAYS THE LORD GOD: BEHOLD, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES AND RAISE YOU FROM YOUR GRAVES, O MY PEOPLE. AND I WILL BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. 13 AND YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD, WHEN I OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND RAISE YOU FROM YOUR GRAVES, O MY PEOPLE. 14 AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU, AND YOU SHALL LIVE, AND I WILL PLACE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND. THEN YOU SHALL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD; I HAVE SPOKEN, AND I WILL DO IT, DECLARES THE LORD.”
15 The word of the LORD came to me: 16 “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick ofEphraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ 17 AND JOIN THEM ONE TO ANOTHER INTO ONE STICK, THAT THEY MAY BECOME ONE IN YOUR HAND. 18 And when your people say to you, ‘Will you not tell us what you mean by these?’ 19 say to them, Thus says the Lord GOD: Behold, I am about to take the stick of Joseph (that is in the hand of Ephraim) and the tribes of Israel associated with him. And I will join with it the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, that they may be one in my hand. 20 WHEN THE STICKS ON WHICH YOU WRITE ARE IN YOUR HAND BEFORE THEIR EYES, 21 THEN SAY TO THEM, THUS SAYS THE LORDGOD: BEHOLD, I WILL TAKE THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL FROM THE NATIONS AMONG WHICH THEY HAVE GONE, AND WILL GATHER THEM FROM ALL AROUND, AND BRING THEM TO THEIR OWN LAND. 22 AND I WILL MAKE THEM ONE NATION IN THE LAND, ON THE MOUNTAINS OF ISRAEL. AND ONE KING SHALL BE KING OVER THEM ALL, AND THEY SHALL BE NO LONGER TWO NATIONS, AND NO LONGER DIVIDED INTO TWO KINGDOMS. 23 THEY SHALL NOT DEFILE THEMSELVES ANYMORE WITH THEIR IDOLS AND THEIR DETESTABLE THINGS, OR WITH ANY OF THEIR TRANSGRESSIONS. BUT I WILL SAVE THEM FROM ALL THE BACKSLIDINGS IN WHICH THEY HAVE SINNED, AND WILL CLEANSE THEM; AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD.
24 “MY SERVANT DAVID SHALL BE KING OVER THEM, AND THEY SHALL ALL HAVE ONE SHEPHERD. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. 25 THEY SHALL DWELL IN THE LAND THAT I GAVE TO MY SERVANT JACOB, WHERE YOUR FATHERS LIVED. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. 26 I WILL MAKE A COVENANT OF PEACE WITH THEM. IT SHALL BE AN EVERLASTING COVENANT WITH THEM. AND I WILL SET THEM IN THEIR LAND AND MULTIPLY THEM, AND WILL SET MY SANCTUARY IN THEIR MIDST FOREVERMORE. 27 MY DWELLING PLACE SHALL BE WITH THEM, AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 28 THEN THE NATIONS WILL KNOW THAT I AM THE LORD WHO SANCTIFIES ISRAEL, WHEN MY SANCTUARY IS IN THEIR MIDST FOREVERMORE.”


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2015)

welderguy said:


> 1 Cor.13:9-12
> " For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
> But when that which is perfect is come,then that which is in part shall be done away.
> When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
> ...


 

* Through a Glass Darkly Versus Face-to-Face*
The term "darkly" in I Cor. 13:12 in the Greek is _enigma_ (i.e., "in a riddle"). Opposite of seeing through a glass darkly, is seeing "face to face." (v.12) These correspond to the "veiled" speech of Moses, and the "great plainness of speech" and "open face" characteristic of the gospel in II Cor. 3:12-18. The Hebrew writer says substantially the same thing: "God, who a sundry times and in divers manners spake in past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son." (Heb 1:1) That is, God spoke to the father in types and metaphors, but now speaks to us openly and clearly (_i.e.,_"face to face") through Christ. That this is the correct meaning of the phrase "face to face" is easily demonstrated.
In Numbers chapter twelve the story is recorded how Miriam and Aaron reproached Moses for having married an Ethiopian woman. This displeased the Lord, who rebuked the two with the following words:
"And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak *mouth to mouth*, even *apparently, and not in dark speeches*; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold. How then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" (Num. 12:6-8)​Notice that the phrase "mouth to mouth" and speech that is plain or "apparent" is set in opposition to "dark speeches." This language corresponds with I Cor. 13:12. The phrase "mouth to mouth" is equated with seeing "face to face," and "dark speeches" equates with "seeing through a glass darkly." Similar usage occurs in Exodus 33:11, where it is said that the Lord spoke unto Moses "face to face" as a man speaks to his friend. This does not mean that Moses saw the face of God, for "there shall no man see me, and live." (Ex. 33:20) Rather, use of the phrase "face to face" and "mouth to mouth" signify that the Lord communed openly with Moses, perhaps telling him plainly of the coming substitutionary death of Christ, whereas God communicated the plan of salvation to other prophets through more obscure, indirect means. Jesus himself made a similar remark to the apostles shortly before his crucifixion, saying that he had concealed nothing from them. (Jn. 15:15; 16:29) 
Although God spoke "mouth to mouth" and "face to face" with Moses, Moses put a veil on his face when speaking to the sons of Israel. (Ex. 32,34; Deut. 9:7-21;10:1-5) But the veil woven from the law of Moses is taken away in the gospel, and we behold the glory of God’s salvation openly in the face of Christ. "For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." (II Cor. 4:6) The "shining" in the hearts of the apostles was the inspiration of the Holy Ghost; the glory of God in the face of Jesus is the redemption he wrought in his death, burial and resurrection. 
*That Which is Perfect*​Some will ask, Why does Paul say in I Cor. 13:12 that they saw "darkly," but in II Cor. 3:18 he says we see with "open face?" Doesn't Paul contradict himself? This can be explained in two ways. First, Paul's use of "darkly" in I Cor. 13:12 versus "open face" in II Cor. 3:18 reflects the different emphasis of the two passages. In I Cor. 13:8-13, Paul is emphasizing the temporary nature of spiritual gifts and their identification with the age that was passing away. In II Cor. 3:8-18, the emphasis is upon the surpassing glory of the gospel of Christ. The age to which spiritual gifts belonged was a time of types and shadows wherein man saw only darkly the mystery of the gospel and the glory of the age to come. On the other hand, in the gospel, God causes the radiance of his glory to shine openly in the face of Christ. Jesus has brought his blood within the veil (Heb. 9:12,24); the glory of God's presence has illuminated his skin, which now shines openly in the face of Jesus, our High Priest, as he blesses the people. (Ex. 34:29-35)
Second, Paul's use of "darkly" versus "face to face" reflects the "already but not yet" character of the first century A.D. It must be borne in mind that the church was in a period of transition. That which is perfect was indeed come; however, the withdrawal of the spiritual gifts was gradual. They could not be taken away until the full revelation of the gospel was given. The apostles needed the gifts to finish up the sacred canon. Moreover, the gifts were God's testimony that they were his messengers. Thus, while God's plan of redemption was perfect from the cross, the gifts, like the moon, would gradually wane and vanish away. 
*Conclusion*​During the pendency of the Mosaic age, man saw through a glass darkly. The mystery of the gospel was veiled in Moses, but is done away in Christ. The gifts of the Spirit belonged to the latter days of the world-age identified with the types and shadows of the Mosaic law. Their existence testified to the fact that that which was complete had not yet fully come. "For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did." (Heb. 7:19; cf. 7:11; 8:7) Just as the types and shadows of the law found fulfillment in Jesus, so the gifts of the Spirit found completion in Christ also. Their utility ceased when the body of believers was come to majority; the age set by the Father for inheritance in the kingdom of Christ. (Gal. 4:1-4; Eph. 4:11-13) Childhood has yielded to maturity; and Christians now behold the glory of God "face to face" in the open, unveiled face of Jesus.

http://www.preteristcentral.com/Through a Glass Darkly.html


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 17, 2015)

John 6:44
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 

When is the "last day" and is it different for each individual? Will Jesus raise my soul/spirit on my "last day?"
What happens to the individuals who don't come to Jesus? Do they not get "raised up?" If not they must die when they die.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 6:44
> 44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
> 
> When is the "last day" and is it different for each individual? Will Jesus raise my soul/spirit on my "last day?"
> What happens to the individuals who don't come to Jesus? Do they not get "raised up?" If not they must die when they die.


 
This must be a very difficult question to answer for those looking through the futurist glasses. 
Martha knew that Lazarus would be raised in the last days, Jesus said He would raise those that follwed Him in the last days.

From those two examples I believe the last days were in their future and no signs were seen of it's coming yet. But after Christ dies and is resurrected the tone of the last days changed. Acts 2 shows they were in the last days

Acts 2 :*15*For these arenot drunken , as ye suppose , seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
*16*But this is that which was spokenby the prophet Joel;
*17*And it shall come to passin the last days, saithGod, I will pour outof my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy , and your young men shall seevisions, and your old men shall dream dreams 

John went even further here:

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you heard that antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour.

So John states they were in the last hour.

 within the same generation they went from looking forward to the last days..to being in the last days with prophecy fulfilled proving it, to John an inspired by the Holy Spirit Apostle saying they were in the last hour ( because the anti christ had come) 

 But what do I know? Im just a nut .Jesus made it clear His coming would be in the generation of people He spoke to. He told Peter that he would die before his coming but John would not John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me

Paul, Peter, and John all made it clear that His coming was at that moment at hand, near, the last hour, and they all pointed to signs of old prophecy. If the signs of old prophecy were being fulfilled back then for those people..Why? For an event that was to take place thousand of years later? Why give them the signs? Why not wait and give the signs to the generation that was truly going to need them ...like the ones that will be in the last seconds?

Love all that love Christ, if you dont have the answers to those last few questions, keep studying. Peace to all.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jun 18, 2015)

What perspective should we use scriptures that speak of the last day or last hour as it applies to us personally?
Is it safe to say John 6:44 doesn't apply to us?
Can I still use this verse as faith and hope that God will draw me and raise me up or do I need to seek other verses to show this?


----------



## EverGreen1231 (Jun 18, 2015)

If the bible doesn't talk about it, I wouldn't believe such a thing as Christ returning in 70 AD. All was fulfilled with his ascension to heaven. He said he'd come back: We're still waiting for that to happen.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> If the bible doesn't talk about it, I wouldn't believe such a thing as Christ returning in 70 AD. All was fulfilled with his ascension to heaven. He said he'd come back: We're still waiting for that to happen.



The Bible says nothing about the temple being destroyed after the fact. That's because all the scripture predates 70 ad.  Revelation is the easiest to prove is pre70ad although popular belief for a long time was it was written in 95-96 ad . This is now debunked .

Jesus said He would return within that first generation. He gave signs of His return and what it would be like. Studying the signs and apocalyptic language He used and putting it in the time frame He said makes 70ad the only alternative if you believe as I do , that Jesus is Lord and not a false prophet.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What perspective should we use scriptures that speak of the last day or last hour as it applies to us personally?
> Is it safe to say John 6:44 doesn't apply to us?
> Can I still use this verse as faith and hope that God will draw me and raise me up or do I need to seek other verses to show this?



Revelation 22:14-15


----------

