# Jephthah's vow and sacrifice.



## gordon 2 (Jul 13, 2021)

Judges 11

Jephthah sacrificed his only daughter to the Lord because he vowed to do so as she was the first to meet him as he returned from conquest.

 " whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.” " such was Jephthah's vow.

1.Had you been Jephthah would you have proceeded with your vow to the Lord if your child's life and death was in the balance and in your hands?

2.Why could Jephthah make such a vow to begin with?

3.Is there an account yet in Christianity for Jephthah's sacrifice of his daughter as we give to the account of Abraham's sacrifice of his son? And if not, why not?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 13, 2021)

I have the sermon notes of one of the best messages I have heard regarding this. I no longer believe that Jephthah killed his daughter. I would be more than happy to share those with you if you'd like.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 13, 2021)

Please do.... if it is not too much out of your way.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 13, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> I have the sermon notes of one of the best messages I have heard regarding this. I no longer believe that Jephthah killed his daughter. I would be more than happy to share those with you if you'd like.



how do you figure that?  Judges 11:39 plainly states that he did as he had vowed.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 13, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Please do.... if it is not too much out of your way.


PM sent. Let me know if it doesn't work.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

I, too, don’t believe that she was sacrificed.  Jephthah’s daughter was not allowed to marry and spent the rest of her life without knowing a man or having children.  No way that Israel is going to watch a human sacrifice, something spoke against time and again in Torah


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> I have the sermon notes of one of the best messages I have heard regarding this. I no longer believe that Jephthah killed his daughter. I would be more than happy to share those with you if you'd like.



Share with me as well, brother.


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## Mars (Jul 14, 2021)

It seems clear to me that he did sacrifice her. What am I missing?

And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow that he had made.
Judges 11:39 ESV


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

In several places it mentions that she “bewailed her virginity”, and never bewailed being sacrificed.  Besides, humans could not be sacrificed per Torah, and only certain animals were allowed to be burned in offerings.


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## Mars (Jul 14, 2021)

What was sacrificed if not her life?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

Her life.  She could have no children of her own, would know no man, and have no progeny for her father.   Women could be devoted to service with the Levites as well, as seen in Numbers 31


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## Mars (Jul 14, 2021)

I think we may just have to disagree on this one.

He vowed to sacrifice the first thing out as a burnt offering. Sending her to live in the temple don't exactly burn her up.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

Mars said:


> I think we may just have to disagree on this one.
> 
> He vowed to sacrifice the first thing out as a burnt offering. Sending her to live in the temple don't exactly burn her up.



We can disagree, not a problem.  Was just giving my reasons for believing that she didn’t die.   She never mentions death, and per Torah only certain animals could be sacrificed by fire.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> We can disagree, not a problem.  Was just giving my reasons for believing that she didn’t die.   She never mentions death, and per Torah only certain animals could be sacrificed by fire.



Yet, in the time of Christ, children by the thousands were sacrificed in worship of Baal, and Israel was under the rule of Torah then too.

All thru the history of Israel, the Bible reports that the inhabitants worshipped Baal, or returned to the worship of Baal.  The main method of Baal worship was human sacrifice, mostly of infants.

Also his vow was to offer a burnt sacrifice, not set aside something dedicated to God.  The Bible plainly says that he fulfilled his vow, not a modified version of his vow.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 14, 2021)

I wonder why we teach and hear the story of Abraham's sacrifice as it relates to faith but not Jephthah's story? Was one a story of faith and the other a story of another nature? What was Jephthah's reason for making such a sacrifice?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

In Numbers 30, we read that vows could be made to God.  These vows were mostly if/then statements. “If you do this for me, I’ll do this”.   Most all of us have taken vows in our life.   Weddings.  Military service.  Etc


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## Mars (Jul 14, 2021)

I tend to take a more literal interpretation of the Bible.

Verse 31 states:
Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
Judges 11:31 KJV

Verse 35
And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.
Judges 11:35 KJV

Verse 39
And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
Judges 11:39 

He vowed a burnt offering(verse 31) and did what he vowed to do(verse 39).

I'm far from a biblical scholar but this seems to be what the text describes.

Have a good day and God bless.


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## Mars (Jul 14, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder why we teach and hear the story of Abraham's sacrifice as it relates to faith but not Jephthah's story? Was one a story of faith and the other a story of another nature? What was Jephthah's reason for making such a sacrifice?



God had already told Abraham that he would be the father of nations. Since he was already very old and the conception of Issac was already a miracle, I think Abraham knew/had faith that God would keep his word.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Yet, in the time of Christ, children by the thousands were sacrificed in worship of Baal, and Israel was under the rule of Torah then too.
> 
> All thru the history of Israel, the Bible reports that the inhabitants worshipped Baal, or returned to the worship of Baal.  The main method of Baal worship was human sacrifice, mostly of infants.
> 
> Also his vow was to offer a burnt sacrifice, not set aside something dedicated to God.  The Bible plainly says that he fulfilled his vow, not a modified version of his vow.



???   Those “thousands of children” weren’t sacrificed in Israel.   Where do you read that they were?   Baal worship was east of the Jordan, not in Israel.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2021)

Mars said:


> I tend to take a more literal interpretation of the Bible.
> 
> Verse 31 states:
> Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
> ...




you radical.  Reading something in the Bible, and actually believing it meant what it plainly says.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> ???   Those “thousands of children” weren’t sacrificed in Israel.   Where do you read that they were?   Baal worship was east of the Jordan, not in Israel.



Not true. Baal worship was all over the northern tribes.  There were temples around the base of Mt Hermon where children were sacrificed even during the time of Christ.  That is one reason Peter wanted to erect temples there when Moses and Elijah appeared and Jesus was transfigured.  The Jordan river springs from the base of the mountain, and there is a huge cavern there where children where thrown into the upper chamber and the lower chamber was watched for signs of blood, showing the gods had not accepted the offering.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Not true. Baal worship was all over the northern tribes.  There were temples around the base of Mt Hermon where children were sacrificed even during the time of Christ.  That is one reason Peter wanted to erect temples there when Moses and Elijah appeared and Jesus was transfigured.  The Jordan river springs from the base of the mountain, and there is a huge cavern there where children where thrown into the upper chamber and the lower chamber was watched for signs of blood, showing the gods had not accepted the offering.



Oh!! You’re talking about after the kingdom was split.  God told them that if they started worshipping other gods then the land would spew them out.   The last verses of II Kings tells us that the northern tribes were worshipping YHVH, but also worshipping the gods of Syria.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> ???   Those “thousands of children” weren’t sacrificed in Israel.   Where do you read that they were?   Baal worship was east of the Jordan, not in Israel.



the Bible records that Ahab married Jezebel and brought Baal worship into the northern kingdom, and when their daughter, Athaliah married Jehoshaphat and continued the practice of Baal worship. It was all over the northern kingdom, and eventually worked its way into Judah also


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Oh!! You’re talking about after the kingdom was split.  God told them that if they started worshipping other gods then the land would spew them out.   The last verses of II Kings tells us that the northern tribes were worshipping YHVH, but also worshipping the gods of Syria.



yes the kingdom was split, but the 10 northern tribes where then called Israel, and the 2 southern tribes, Judah.  
So Baal worship was practiced widely in Israel. Most of the history after a king was put over Israel happened under a split kingdom.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 14, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you radical.  Reading something in the Bible, and actually believing it meant what it plainly says.



That reminds me of something my grandfather used to do.  He believed that Joseph’s brothers didn’t actually sell him because he READ PLAINLY in Genesis that Midianites merchantmen removed Joseph from the pit and sold him to Ishmaelites.   Lol.    He cared less that there was overwhelming evidence that Joseph’s brothers sold him; he just held on to the weird wording of the KJV.  Lol


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 14, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That reminds me of something my grandfather used to do.  He believed that Joseph’s brothers didn’t actually sell him because he READ PLAINLY in Genesis that Midianites merchantmen removed Joseph from the pit and sold him to Ishmaelites.   Lol.    He cared less that there was overwhelming evidence that Joseph’s brothers sold him; he just held on to the weird wording of the KJV.  Lol



our English language is evolving everyday, and has for centuries.  When I was a youngin' if you said someone was gay, it meant happy. Then in my teenage years gay changed to queer, which had changed from meaning strange, to meaning homosexual. 

Some of the wording and meanings of the words that were interpreted back in the 1600's by King James don't mean the same now. And the syntax of those words have changed too.  You really need to look at several different translations to gather an idea of what the authors were trying to relay.

Even today, there are some words in the original text that we don't know what they mean. It has to be discerned from the context of the passage.


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Yet, in the time of Christ, children by the thousands were sacrificed in worship of Baal, and Israel was under the rule of Torah then too.
> 
> All thru the history of Israel, the Bible reports that the inhabitants worshipped Baal, or returned to the worship of Baal.  The main method of Baal worship was human sacrifice, mostly of infants.
> 
> Also his vow was to offer a burnt sacrifice, not set aside something dedicated to God.  The Bible plainly says that he fulfilled his vow, not a modified version of his vow.


Some Jews, along with other cultures, worshiped different gods. Baal accepted human sacrifices.  The God of Abraham does not.
The Jews who worshiped Baal (there were different Baal's) were not Torah following Jews.
https://www.compellingtruth.org/baal.html


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Some Jews, along with other cultures, worshiped different gods. Baal accepted human sacrifices.  The God of Abraham does not.
> The Jews who worshiped Baal (there were different Baal's) were not Torah following Jews.
> https://www.compellingtruth.org/baal.html



YEAH.  AND?


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> YEAH.  AND?


The God of Abraham would not have wanted or accepted a Human sacrifice.
If scripture is talking about the Lord, meaning Baal, then you would be right.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> The God of Abraham would not have wanted or accepted a Human sacrifice.
> If scripture is talking about the Lord, meaning Baal, then you would be right.



I think you are lost is space.  

no one said God accepted the sacrifice, only that the sacrifice was made.  People do things that are wrong all the time, and we don't say that God accepts that either.

The question was did he sacrifice his daughter.  Scripture says yes.

As a side point someone mentioned that human sacrifice was not known amongst the Jews.  It was pointed out that some Jews worshipped the idol gods of Baal, and that they did sacrifice humans on a regular basis.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

Gen 37:28 (for you “take it as it is written” guys)

Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.

Who sold Joseph?  His brothers, or Midianite merchantmen?


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I think you are lost is space.
> 
> no one said God accepted the sacrifice, only that the sacrifice was made.  People do things that are wrong all the time, and we don't say that God accepts that either.
> 
> ...


The biblical story in question tends to lead the reader to believe that Jephthah was a believer in the God of Abraham. If he was then he followed the Torah. The God of Abraham and The Torah do not condone *human sacrifices.

To the side point, it seems whoever mentioned the Jews were talking about the Torah following Jews. They were not being specific.

*edited to add "human"


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Gen 37:28 (for you “take it as it is written” guys)
> 
> Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.
> 
> Who sold Joseph?  His brothers, or Midianite merchantmen?



No reply from the ‘radicals’?   Lol


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

bullethead said:


> The biblical story in question tends to lead the reader to believe that Jephthah was a believer in the God of Abraham. If he was then he followed the Torah. The God of Abraham and The Torah do not condone *human sacrifices.
> 
> To the side point, it seems whoever mentioned the Jews were talking about the Torah following Jews. They were not being specific.
> 
> *edited to add "human"



and David, who was a man after God's own heart according to scripture, placed a warrior on the front lines and had the others abandon him there so he would be killed.  There is no doubt that was premeditated murder.  The Torah teaches against murder.
It is obvious that people are capable of breaking Torah law, even while professing to be a devout Jew.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> No reply from the ‘radicals’?   Lol


Genisis 45:4 makes it quite plain that it was Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Genisis 45:4 makes it quite plain that it was Joseph's brothers who sold him into slavery.



So, you’re admitting that, sometimes, you could be mislead by a straight reading of a verse? (ie Jepthah daughter)    That is my point.  A ‘radical’ would swear that Midianites sold Joseph to Ishmaelites, and be wrong


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, you’re admitting that, sometimes, you could be mislead by a straight reading of a verse? (ie Jepthah daughter)    That is my point.  A ‘radical’ would swear that Midianites sold Joseph to Ishmaelites, and be wrong



no, I am saying you have to take the whole of scripture into consideration.  Is there another verse or another account of this incident that would make anyone believe that the girl wasn't sacrificed?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> no, I am saying you have to take the whole of scripture into consideration.  Is there another verse or another account of this incident that would make anyone believe that the girl wasn't sacrificed?



Exactly!!  You’ve got to consider the whole of scripture!   Yes, there are many verses that say not to sacrifice a human.  Many.  And nowhere does his daughter express concern about dying, only having to remain a virgin, which would have meant shame and ridicule for her.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

if you read in context, Gen 37:26-29 you will understand the entire thread.

26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.
28 Then there passed by Midianites merchantmen; and they drew and lifted up Joseph out of the pit, and sold Joseph to the Ishmeelites for twenty pieces of silver: and they brought Joseph into Egypt.



If you read in context the story of the sacrifice of Jepthah's daughter, it is clear the author intended the conclusion of the story to be that the girl was sacrificed.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Exactly!!  You’ve got to consider the whole of scripture!   Yes, there are many verses that say not to sacrifice a human.  Many.  And nowhere does his daughter express concern about dying, only having to remain a virgin, which would have meant shame and ridicule for her.



nope.  To remain a virgin was highly regarded.  What was thought a shame was to marry and not have children.

And nowhere in this narrative do you find any hint that he man didn't do as he vowed, except for your thought that it was against Torah, so he didn't kill her.  It has been pointed out a number of times that regardless of what Torah taught, people disobeyed it on a regular basis.

That is the whole work of the Torah, to show us that we can never be good enough to purchase our own salvation.  Remember the quote... The law kills......


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## bullethead (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> and David, who was a man after God's own heart according to scripture, placed a warrior on the front lines and had the others abandon him there so he would be killed.  There is no doubt that was premeditated murder.  The Torah teaches against murder.
> It is obvious that people are capable of breaking Torah law, even while professing to be a devout Jew.


Murder vs a human sacrifice to a God that does not accept them are two different things.

https://www.aish.com/atr/Jephthah-Sacrificing-Daughter.html

God Punished David for killing Uriah.

As King David approached Bahurim, a man from the same clan as Saul’s family came out from there. His name was Shimei son of Gera, and he cursed as he came out. 6 He pelted David and all the king’s officials with stones, though all the troops and the special guard were on David’s right and left. 7 As he cursed, Shimei said, “Get out, get out, you murderer, you scoundrel! 8 The Lord has repaid you for all the blood you shed in the household of Saul, in whose place you have reigned. The Lord has given the kingdom into the hands of your son Absalom. You have come to ruin because you are a murderer!”


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> nope.  To remain a virgin was highly regarded.  What was thought a shame was to marry and not have children.
> 
> And nowhere in this narrative do you find any hint that he man didn't do as he vowed, except for your thought that it was against Torah, so he didn't kill her.  It has been pointed out a number of times that regardless of what Torah taught, people disobeyed it on a regular basis.
> 
> That is the whole work of the Torah, to show us that we can never be good enough to purchase our own salvation.  Remember the quote... The law kills......



Lol.  I don’t know where you got your theology, but I hope you kept the receipt!  What’s it like to have the mindset that Torah was bad, when over and over it’s declared to be precious?   So, you believe God freed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt only to put them under another bondage?  Lol.    God said that the Law was easy, but you are saying He’s wrong, right?  ?

And, again, you’re wrong about it being a blessing for women to stay virgins!   Where do you see any father telling his daughter “My prayer is that you never marry or have children”??  Lmbo.   You’re cracking me up with this feeble attempt to rescue Jephthah’s daughter.    

So, you believe that God gave Jephthah awesome victories so that he could then have Jephthah Murder his daughter?  ?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> if you read in context, Gen 37:26-29 you will understand the entire thread.
> 
> 26 And Judah said unto his brethren, What profit is it if we slay our brother, and conceal his blood?
> 27 Come, and let us sell him to the Ishmeelites, and let not our hand be upon him; for he is our brother and our flesh. And his brethren were content.
> ...


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

Also, you don’t have to explain Joseph being sold, as it is obvious from scripture.  Joseph himself say that his brothers sold him.  My point was to show that, contrary to what you said about ‘radicals’, one needs to look at context often rather than the “plain wording” of a verse, as you said


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Lol.  I don’t know where you got your theology, but I hope you kept the receipt!  What’s it like to have the mindset that Torah was bad, when over and over it’s declared to be precious?   So, you believe God freed the Israelites from bondage in Egypt only to put them under another bondage?  Lol.    God said that the Law was easy, but you are saying He’s wrong, right?  ?
> 
> And, again, you’re wrong about it being a blessing for women to stay virgins!   Where do you see any father telling his daughter “My prayer is that you never marry or have children”??  Lmbo.   You’re cracking me up with this feeble attempt to rescue Jephthah’s daughter.
> 
> So, you believe that God gave Jephthah awesome victories so that he could then have Jephthah Murder his daughter?  ?



can you give scripture that says the law is easy.  From what I read, the law is death, but grace is life.  The law only points out that mankind can't be righteous on his own, and that he needs grace.

As to the sacrifice of Japhath's daughter, in the broad sense, it really makes no difference to me.  The scripture is clear to me that he offered her as a sacrifice.  If you wish to read something into the scripture that I don't see... so be it.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can you give scripture that says the law is easy.  From what I read, the law is death, but grace is life.  The law only points out that mankind can't be righteous on his own, and that he needs grace.



? let’s see.   God tells Israel in Deut 30 (pretty much the whole chapter, but specifically verses 11-14) that it’s easy - and Paul requotes this in Romans 10.  

I John 5:3   John tells us that it’s easy and it’s how we show God love

Jesus says that His yoke and burden are easy.  (He said His doctrine and teachings were from the Father)

Btw, Deut 30 is prophetic and deals with us…. The end times.   He says that Israel (us) would return, in the end, to obeying Him from their heart


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> ? let’s see.   God tells Israel in Deut 30 (pretty much the whole chapter, but specifically verses 11-14) that it’s easy - and Paul requotes this in Romans 10.
> 
> I John 5:3   John tells us that it’s easy and it’s how we show God love
> 
> ...



if keeping the law is so easy, why don't you do it?  Why would you need Jesus to come and die as a perfect sacrifice, if it is so easy to keep the law and get into heaven that way.

Even Paul says in Romans 7:15-20 that he does what he hates, but he can't do the things he knows are right.  

Obeying the law is easy?  Really?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 21, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> if keeping the law is so easy, why don't you do it?  Why would you need Jesus to come and die as a perfect sacrifice, if it is so easy to keep the law and get into heaven that way.
> 
> Even Paul says in Romans 7:15-20 that he does what he hates, but he can't do the things he knows are right.
> 
> Obeying the law is easy?  Really?



Yep, it sure is!  (Or are you calling God - and John - a liar?  Lol). I find it very easy!   Resting on the sabbath?  Easy.  Honoring my mother and father?  Easy.   Etc etc.  when I fail, THATS where grace comes in!  Grace isn’t a license to sin   

Paul also says in Romans 7 that He loves the Law.  ;-) Jesus also says that we will be great in heaven by keeping them.  What do you say, though, that makes one great in heaven?


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 21, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Yep, it sure is!  (Or are you calling God - and John - a liar?  Lol). I find it very easy!   Resting on the sabbath?  Easy.  Honoring my mother and father?  Easy.   Etc etc.  when I fail, THATS where grace comes in!  Grace isn’t a license to sin
> 
> Paul also says in Romans 7 that He loves the Law.  ;-) Jesus also says that we will be great in heaven by keeping them.  What do you say, though, that makes one great in heaven?



if it is so easy, then why, in all the history of mankind, has NO ONE been able to keep the law, except for Jesus?  Billions upon billions upon billions of attempts, but only one successful?  Doesn't sound real easy to me


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> if it is so easy, then why, in all the history of mankind, has NO ONE been able to keep the law, except for Jesus?  Billions upon billions upon billions of attempts, but only one successful?  Doesn't sound real easy to me



 That’s because you have the mindset that, if you can’t keep it perfectly, you should throw in the towel.  Lol.  So many examples in the Bible of how that thinking is corrupt.   II Peter 3:15-17 comes to mind.  Also Paul, late in his life in Acts 21, was still keeping the law, even though everyone was lying and saying that he wasn’t.  Lol. (Acts 21:24) 

Why would the Lord ask us over and over to keep the commandments if He would only accept our efforts if they were perfect?  ? I John makes it clear that IF WE SIN He is faithful to forgive us when we confess.   I John also tells us that keeping the commandments is easy (again, are you saying that God and John are wrong?) and that it’s how we show God love.   

Rev 12:17 says that the devil hates Christians that keep the commandments.  You’re saying that there is no one out there for him to hate since no one can keep it perfectly?  ?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That’s because you have the mindset that, if you can’t keep it perfectly, you should throw in the towel.  Lol.  So many examples in the Bible of how that thinking is corrupt.   II Peter 3:15-17 comes to mind.  Also Paul, late in his life in Acts 21, was still keeping the law, even though everyone was lying and saying that he wasn’t.  Lol. (Acts 21:24)
> 
> Why would the Lord ask us over and over to keep the commandments if He would only accept our efforts if they were perfect?  ? I John makes it clear that IF WE SIN He is faithful to forgive us when we confess.   I John also tells us that keeping the commandments is easy (again, are you saying that God and John are wrong?) and that it’s how we show God love.
> 
> Rev 12:17 says that the devil hates Christians that keep the commandments.  You’re saying that there is no one out there for him to hate since no one can keep it perfectly?  ?



How does Acts 21:25 fit? It seems like it separates Gentiles.
“As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”

It's almost like Paul preached and acted differently among the Jews than he did around the Gentiles.

Paul claims loyalty to the Law while at the same time evangelizing the Gentiles and teaching them they are not under the Law.

Maybe he was like the river ferry operator in The Outlaw Josey Wales, changing customs to best fit in for teaching.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 22, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That’s because you have the mindset that, if you can’t keep it perfectly, you should throw in the towel.



nope.  I am just self aware that I am unable to keep the law, just as you are and everyone else in the past has not been able to keep



> Why would the Lord ask us over and over to keep the commandments if He would only accept our efforts if they were perfect?


 He gave the commandments so that even stupid blind folk like me could see that they will never measure up to the standard of perfection, making this 





> ? I John makes it clear that IF WE SIN He is faithful to forgive us when we confess.


necessary for us to met His standard.



> Rev 12:17 says that the devil hates Christians that keep the commandments.



Satan hates us all, christians, non-christians, atheist, hindus, buddists and anyone else.  It is his desire that everyone would spend eternity in ****


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2021)

Romans 8:2-4
 2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.
3For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh,
4so that the righteous standard of the law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 

"For what the law was powerless to do" As far as I know "the Law" never could do. I don't think Jesus was an afterthought to the Law but God's plan.

Yet how does one walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh if he doesn't keep the Law?
It's like Paul keeps adding something back somewhat related to the Law. Paul gives us the long sin list that will keep us out of the Kingdom but then says "and such were some of you." 
"Everything is permissible," but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible," but not everything is edifying.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 22, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does Acts 21:25 fit? It seems like it separates Gentiles.
> “As for the Gentile believers, they should do what we already told them in a letter: They should abstain from eating food offered to idols, from consuming blood or the meat of strangled animals, and from sexual immorality.”
> 
> It's almost like Paul preached and acted differently among the Jews than he did around the Gentiles.
> ...



Acts 21:25 is a repeat of the Acts 15 decision; that Gentiles - who knew nothing of Gods Torah - would start out with those 4, then learn each sabbath, as is stated in Acts 15:21.   Very few preachers read past Acts 15:20. Lol


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> nope.  I am just self aware that I am unable to keep the law, just as you are and everyone else in the past has not been able to keep
> 
> He gave the commandments so that even stupid blind folk like me could see that they will never measure up to the standard of perfection, making this
> necessary for us to met His standard.
> ...



Where does it say that Satan hates us all?  I showed specific scripture that states that he hates believers like me, but where does it say - other than in theology - that the devil hates everyone?   

Did God and John lie when they said that keeping the commandments was easy and not a burden?   Even John, after telling us that it was easy, tells us that there’s grace for when we fail.  Since Christ redeemed us from the curse of failures, we are free to obey without fear of the punishment.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 22, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Where does it say that Satan hates us all?  I showed specific scripture that states that he hates believers like me, but where does it say - other than in theology - that the devil hates everyone?
> 
> Did God and John lie when they said that keeping the commandments was easy and not a burden?   Even John, after telling us that it was easy, tells us that there’s grace for when we fail.  Since Christ redeemed us from the curse of failures, we are free to obey without fear of the punishment.




Satan hates us all because we are made in the image of God himself.  Anyone that would want every person ever born to share in eternal ****ation with him must hate all those people, or maybe you think Satan is a wizard of love and compassion.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 22, 2021)

The law was 'perfect' but it made no man perfect. We walk by faith not sight. If you believe the same Spirit of Christ that raised Him from the dead lives in you then that's a relational reality (sorry for the tongue twister).  As if to say the Spirit will never "lead" you to sin, and will forever work to show you that sin is not your nature anyway.  
Want proof?, well when you walk after the Spirit (faith, trust, dependence on His life) it is fulfilling in the soul, correct?  And isn't the opposite true, that when we walk after the flesh (still IN the Spirit btw, but that's for another discussion), then we suffer under the earthly consequences of such a walk, even, and especially when it's fueled by religious zealotry, aka the hampster wheel of keeping up with the knowledge of good and evil, aka, becoming as God, which never worked for Adam and we'd do well to be convinced it won't work for us. 

Humbling, tough truth to swallow for legalists, and those bent on the treadmill of self sufficiency.  Yoke easy, burden light? You bet, when His Life within is no longer transactional (Moses, commandments, law) but FUNCTIONALLY RELATIONAL out of the simplicity and purity of devotion in Christ FROM the Spirit of Life, not for.

Peace out.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 22, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> The law was 'perfect' but it made no man perfect. We walk by faith not sight. If you believe the same Spirit of Christ that raised Him from the dead lives in you then that's a relational reality (sorry for the tongue twister).  As if to say the Spirit will never "lead" you to sin, and will forever work to show you that sin is not your nature anyway.
> Want proof?, well when you walk after the Spirit (faith, trust, dependence on His life) it is fulfilling in the soul, correct?  And isn't the opposite true, that when we walk after the flesh (still IN the Spirit btw, but that's for another discussion), then we suffer under the earthly consequences of such a walk, even, and especially when it's fueled by religious zealotry, aka the hampster wheel of keeping up with the knowledge of good and evil, aka, becoming as God, which never worked for Adam and we'd do well to be convinced it won't work for us.
> 
> Humbling, tough truth to swallow for legalists, and those bent on the treadmill of self sufficiency.  Yoke easy, burden light? You bet, when His Life within is no longer transactional (Moses, commandments, law) but FUNCTIONALLY RELATIONAL out of the simplicity and purity of devotion in Christ FROM the Spirit of Life, not for.
> ...



why some people choose to live under the law instead of under grace, I can't understand.  Why would someone choose to live a life of seeking approval by maintaining obligations that they think are obtainable.

I would much rather life my life with the understanding that I am loved. I am accepted and I am part of God's family.  There is nothing I can do that would make God love me more, and there is nothing I can do that will make God love me less.  (no, that is not a license to do anything I want whenever I want. My desire to have a relationship with the King encourages me to do things that reinforce that relationship.)

as one guy I know says... If God has a refrigerator, my picture is on the door.


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## StriperAddict (Jul 23, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> why some people choose to live under the law instead of under grace, I can't understand.  Why would someone choose to live a life of seeking approval by maintaining obligations that they think are obtainable.
> 
> I would much rather life my life with the understanding that I am loved. I am accepted and I am part of God's family.  There is nothing I can do that would make God love me more, and there is nothing I can do that will make God love me less.  (no, that is not a license to do anything I want whenever I want. My desire to have a relationship with the King encourages me to do things that reinforce that relationship.)
> 
> as one guy I know says... If God has a refrigerator, my picture is on the door.


Amen, beautiful.

I think the answer is that grace provides no "safety net" and the religious are afraid of it.  A believer either knows he is loved and walks from his true Source, or mixes that love with how well he does the Christian rig - in his own strength, which makes for misery every time.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 23, 2021)

The fact that you are loved  because God loves you comes from a religious reading and interpretation of scripture. A man needs no special spirit to know this. And this fact comes from the repeated indoctrinating preaching that " God so loved the world He gave his only son." and " Old Pharaoh, let my people go!" It comes from being religious, It comes from understanding that Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and so it must be so for yourself. It comes from the fact that Jesus like his family was religious and so it is with you. It must be from the fact the Jesus quoted scripture and so your need too.


However the fact is that you love comes from God. It is not difficult to know I am loved by God. It is more difficult to Do! from God's love. And yet having received His very heart as mine, to love requires work. It requires preparations. It requires execution.

These schemes of pointing out the polarity of " the law" and the " religious" vesus "Grace" seem so to the side of what a Christian is. It seems to me a take up of a polemic that Paul would take when he points out how different he is as a Pharisee and as a Christian. Knowing that God loved him and that he was of a chosen people would cause Paul to hunt down blasphemy and Christians so that they might be put to death all in the name of the law and righteousness. But as a Christian he could not hate the blasphemer, rather he was left to even love him.

So as a Pharisee, as a young man, doing his duty, Paul hunted down Christ Jesus the prince of blasphemers and when he found Jesus :


"And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? [5] And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks."

And hopefully you know the rest of the story how Paul became a man that loved inwardly  and how difficult it is to do this, yet there is no going back. Hopefully you know this  also as Paul got to know it and to love be it difficult is a no brainer, no law degree required, no understanding that you are to God special purpose and so of the elect--- no bible verse assembly required-- no grace vs the law polemics.

Love is not the sun shining on you, rather it is the son shining from you. Maybe...  Maybe like I say I have a hard time with the age old bromide that there are religious spirits all around us... that need a law vs grace lecture now and then that somehow is supposed to get under the religious spirit's skin and work its transforming powers to convict.  Hum! Here comes Paul the Pharisee! Ticked off at the Pharisees. Here come the judge. Like Paul this is frustrating... and this kicking against this and that.

  Law versus grace is perhaps the fuel of ****... to my heart's leaning. Give these two a shove a bit more than Paul's musings and strike a match. That's just plain old, old style religion. Somehow this ain't good enough for me. The heart that my religious observances feed is picky about what goes in.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 23, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Satan hates us all because we are made in the image of God himself.  Anyone that would want every person ever born to share in eternal ****ation with him must hate all those people, or maybe you think Satan is a wizard of love and compassion.




Lol.   Theology.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 23, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> why some people choose to live under the law instead of under grace, I can't understand.  Why would someone choose to live a life of seeking approval by maintaining obligations that they think are obtainable.
> 
> I would much rather life my life with the understanding that I am loved. I am accepted and I am part of God's family.  There is nothing I can do that would make God love me more, and there is nothing I can do that will make God love me less.  (no, that is not a license to do anything I want whenever I want. My desire to have a relationship with the King encourages me to do things that reinforce that relationship.)
> 
> as one guy I know says... If God has a refrigerator, my picture is on the door.



Lol.  I “live under the law” because my Father asked me to obey Him, if I love Him.  I do.  If you love me, keep my commandments.  Not for salvation, as I’m already saved, but because I love Him.  It’s really very simple a d fits perfectly with what we read in NT.   Even your boy Paul kept the law all his days.   Why would he - or anyone as you say - do that?  We find the answer in Acts 21.  

“That all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.”

Lol.   Are you guys saying that Paul, and James and a host of Christian leaders in Jerusalem were wrong?  Lmbo ??


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 23, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Lol.  I “live under the law” because my Father asked me to obey Him, if I love Him.  I do.  If you love me, keep my commandments.  Not for salvation, as I’m already saved, but because I love Him.  It’s really very simple a d fits perfectly with what we read in NT.   Even your boy Paul kept the law all his days.   Why would he - or anyone as you say - do that?  We find the answer in Acts 21.
> 
> “That all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.”
> 
> Lol.   Are you guys saying that Paul, and hames and a host of leaders in Jerusalem were wrong?  Lmbo ??



LOL  theology


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 23, 2021)

Let's all sing together now.....


Satan loves me this I know
Cause Bandersnatcher says it so
We will laugh and we can grin
For Satan bids us come and sin..


Yes Satan loves me....



You know the rest


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 23, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Let's all sing together now.....
> 
> 
> Satan loves me this I know
> ...



Lol.  “Yes, Lord, I know you said that the devil hates a Remnant of believers who believe in You AND keep your commandments, but you’re mistaken as he hates everyone!”    Love how you guys trash scripture.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 23, 2021)

I have zero commitment to the law and I fear no curse from it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 27, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> how do you figure that?  Judges 11:39 plainly states that he did as he had vowed.



  I'm amazed every day by what folks on here read into and out of the plain text.  I'm to the point it doesn't even surprise me what crazy gibberish people come up with.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 27, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> I have zero commitment to the law and I fear no curse from it.



And, if you are in Christ, you shouldn't, since He took the curse of failure for you.   He did not, though, take the blessing of obedience from you, as Jesus told us


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 27, 2021)

Jephthah's daughter also had some suck friends...   lol    They never once lamented that she was about to die and they were going to lose their great friend, they only lamented that she was a virgin


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## gemcgrew (Jul 27, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> And, if you are in Christ, you shouldn't, since He took the curse of failure for you.   He did not, though, take the blessing of obedience from you, as Jesus told us


To be in Christ is to have all spiritual blessings. This is where redemption, justification, wisdom and righteousness are found. This is where a sinner is "accepted in the beloved". It requires nothing from me, but all of me. It is immutable and forever.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 27, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> To be in Christ is to have all spiritual blessings. This is where redemption, justification, wisdom and righteousness are found. This is where a sinner is "accepted in the beloved". It requires nothing from me, but all of me. It is immutable and forever.



Words of our Messiah, and to be fulfilled in the future:

REv 22:14,15

*14*  Blessed are they *that do his commandments,* that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

*15*  For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and *****mongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

According to Jesus, who gets to enter the city?  everyone?   lol    Nope....those who don't do the commandments will be least in heaven (Matt 5:19) and outside the city.   Sounds like not everyone will be the same!   ;-)    

How do you "take it as it says" guys interpret the Lord's words?    LMBO


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 28, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Words of our Messiah, and to be fulfilled in the future:
> 
> REv 22:14,15
> 
> ...


Any thoughts that this event may have already happened?


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## gemcgrew (Jul 28, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> According to Jesus, who gets to enter the city?


All that the Father giveth Him.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 28, 2021)

“Heaven and earth” passed away when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70AD and everything changed. No need to wait for the meteoric destruction of planet earth to stop sacrificing animals and avoiding shellfish in your diet.

Is it possible Paul kept the Law as mentioned in Acts, shaving his head, etc, because the Law was waxing until the "Heaven and Earth"(Temple) passed?


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## hummerpoo (Jul 28, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> “Heaven and earth” passed away when the Romans sacked Jerusalem in 70AD and everything changed. No need to wait for the meteoric destruction of planet earth to stop sacrificing animals and avoiding shellfish in your diet.
> 
> Is it possible Paul kept the Law as mentioned in Acts, shaving his head, etc, because the Law was waxing until the "Heaven and Earth"(Temple) passed?



Preterism? 











Just kidding, Art


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Preterism?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm channeling that guy who used to be on here,


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2021)

Revelation was written by John to certain churches to help them out.
It must have been about something that would happen "soon."
There would be a New Jerusalem in which people would live, die, have babies, and grow crops as foretold by Isaiah.
It seems to follow with Matthew 24, flee to the mountains.

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2021)

The warnings and perhaps John's revelation of them seemed eminent. I'm not a preterist or trying to say all is finished but some of this stuff happened in 70AD. Maybe it  was a mirror of what would happen spiritually in the future. Perhaps the physical mirrors the spiritual as for as events and things happen. Like a type of physical salvation(flee to the mountains) mirrors a future salvation.(everlasting life)

Thusly it could have been a period of waning Law Keepers. Not for salvation but the Law never was for salvation. Until the temple was destroyed. 

Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "*I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.*" 

It seems that in many ways, many things in Scripture don't fit, and we all have various justifications in our minds as to how to make them fit.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 29, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> It seems that in many ways, many things in Scripture don't fit, and we all have various justifications in our minds as to how to make them fit.



Isn't a perceived misfit in Scripture a surefire indication of an actual error in one's understanding of Scripture, the most basic of which is one's understanding of God's revelation of Himself?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Isn't a perceived misfit in Scripture a surefire indication of an actual error in one's understanding of Scripture, the most basic of which is one's understanding of God's revelation of Himself?


Yes it is.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 29, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Revelation was written by John to certain churches to help them out.
> It must have been about something that would happen "soon."
> There would be a New Jerusalem in which people would live, die, have babies, and grow crops as foretold by Isaiah.
> It seems to follow with Matthew 24, flee to the mountains.
> ...



which generation was he speaking of?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> which generation was he speaking of?


The generation that was warned to flee to the mountains.

I think Matthew 24 in some sorta was describes 70ad and the future end times.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 29, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> The generation that was warned to flee to the mountains.
> 
> I think Matthew 24 in some sorta was describes 70ad and the future end times.




for context, I am posting up Matt 24 15-35

Notice how at verse 32, Jesus changes the subject to the fig tree putting on leaves....


*The Great Tribulation*
*15*“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), *16*“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. *17*Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. *18*And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. *19*But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! *20*And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. *21*For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. *22*And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the [c]elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

*23*“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here _is_ the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe _it._ *24*For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. *25*See, I have told you beforehand.

*26*“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; _or_ ‘Look, _He is_ in the inner rooms!’ do not believe _it._ *27*For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. *28*For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

*The Coming of the Son of Man*
*29*“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. *30*Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. *31*And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His [d]elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*The Parable of the Fig Tree*
*32*“Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer _is_ near. *33*So you also, when you see all these things, know that [e]it is near—at the doors! *34*Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place. *35*Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 2, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> All that the Father giveth Him.



lol   i'm amazed at those who love a direct interpretation of the wording of a scripture, until it disagrees with their theology      It says who get to enter the city....those who do not keep commandments are outside


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 2, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm channeling that guy who used to be on here,



So so much wrong with the preterist view.    William Lane Craig says that the resurrection is the 'achilles heel' of the preterist view.   At least it is for a full preterist.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 3, 2021)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol   i'm amazed at those who love a direct interpretation of the wording of a scripture, until it disagrees with their theology      It says who get to enter the city....those who do not keep commandments are outside


And Scripture has much more to say about it.


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