# wine



## jkkj (Oct 17, 2012)

When jesus turned water into wine:::::

Was this fermented or "fruit of the vine"?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2012)

wine is fermented, otherwise it would have been fruit juice or vinegar.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 17, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> wine is fermented, otherwise it would have been fruit juice or vinegar.



So simple.

yet...some try and make it so difficult.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 17, 2012)

It was wine, it was fermented, and it was the good stuff(according to the scripture).


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

*i'd like a taste, please*

I wouldn't have minded a sip or 3 of what our Lord brought to the wedding!


Ok, on a more serious note,

...can you imagine the bounty His kids will have at the "Great Marriage Supper of the Lamb" ???  My imagination has me think it will be a feast no earthly taste buds could ever concieve...  


(( finally to those of you who know of my appreciation >understatement< of food... stop laughing!    ))

Sorry...  carry on !


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> It was wine, it was fermented, and it was the good stuff(according to the scripture).



I had some professors at Liberty who would argue the point.  I sat through entire classes on the subject.

At the end of the day, I always wondered why it was such a big deal.  The only thing I can figure is tradition.


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## Sargent (Oct 18, 2012)

My question to anyone who brings this up is...

Why didn't they just drink the water?

Well, because water contains a lot of creepy crawlies that you can't see that will give you dysentery (or worse) if you ingest them. 

Other than boiling, the best way to kill the creepy crawlies is to introduce alcohol into the equation. 

The fermentation process turns stagnant, non-potable liquids into potable liquids.  The crowds knew this and their proof was that it was turned into wine instead of purified water. 

So, Jesus turned something disgusting into something useful.... kind of what he does to us, huh?


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sargent said:


> So, Jesus turned something disgusting into something useful.... kind of what he does to us, huh?



Yet, many Christian organizations will not allow folks to volunteer unless they swear off "the booze."

Just a pet peev of mine as I prosecute my "self-righteous war on legalism." :ke: HF)


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2012)

Don't look at me man!  I've got a bottle of wine in the fridge and a six of Sweetwater 420 waiting for me when I get home!

You're not gonna get a "no booze" vote from me my man.  It ain't there as far as I can tell.  Just don't go gettin' all Randy Travis on us.  That's where we run into a problem.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Don't look at me man!  I've got a bottle of wine in the fridge and a six of Sweetwater 420 waiting for me when I get home!



See this thread:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=641643&highlight=self+righteous+war+legalism&page=4

...post #174 



Huntinfool said:


> You're not gonna get a "no booze" vote from me my man.  It ain't there as far as I can tell.  Just don't go gettin' all Randy Travis on us.  That's where we run into a problem.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 18, 2012)

Anybody else have to Google "SweetWater 420" besides me?


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Anybody else have to Google "SweetWater 420" besides me?



Nah, I got a bunch of friends who enjoy it.  Personally, I like European beer much better (Warsteiner the most).....but lately, I've been buying PBR, not bad in a bottle.


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## dawg2 (Oct 18, 2012)

If it wasn't fermented / alcoholic they would not have called Jesus a "wine bibber."  It's that easy.


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## dawg2 (Oct 18, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Anybody else have to Google "SweetWater 420" besides me?



No, it's good stuff!


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> If it wasn't fermented / alcoholic they would not have called Jesus a "wine bibber." It's that easy.


 
I'll have to admit I've never made that connection until now.

Thanks!


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Just a pet peev of mine as I prosecute my "self-righteous war on legalism."



Me too.  I was even part of a church where the pastor wrote it in the by-laws that the congregation should not only abstain from alcohol, but also keep from going to restaurants that served it.

Needless to say, I didn't stay too much longer at that church.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> .....the pastor wrote it in the by-laws that the congregation should not only abstain from alcohol, but also keep from going to restaurants that served it.





Some folks take themselves way too seriously, I think.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Some folks take themselves way too seriously, I think.


 
Yeah, and I think the one's that _don't_ ought have a glass of their 
fav after work tonight.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I had some professors at Liberty who would argue the point.  I sat through entire classes on the subject.
> 
> At the end of the day, I always wondered why it was such a big deal.  The only thing I can figure is tradition.



Tradition is probably one of the reasons.  I know one local Baptist church that has included in their church creed that all members are forbidden to drink any alcoholic beverage.

I also believe our attitude towards alcohol should be closely scrutinized.  I believe our children need to see us not drinking.  Our children are being tempted to do far more than have a sip at night.

Sometimes our freedoms can become stumbling blocks for others.  

The need for fermentation in the 1st century is not a necessity in the world God gives us today.

I'm not familiar with sweetwater 420 either.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Tradition is probably one of the reasons.  I know one local Baptist church that has included in their church creed that all members are forbidden to drink any alcoholic beverage.
> 
> I also believe our attitude towards alcohol should be closely scrutinized.  I believe our children need to see us not drinking.  Our children are being tempted to do far more than have a sip at night.
> 
> ...



Or...do our children need to see us being responsible?  That it is okay to enjoy things in life, as long as we don't go overboard?

Just like enjoying a brownie....or enjoying some candy....a Coke...a cup of coffee.....a beer or cigar (gasp ).


About the sweetwater thing...eh..not a huge fan.  Local pizza place has $1 PBRs and it is much better imho.  But...I'm a Miller Lite fan myself.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 18, 2012)

Sargent said:


> My question to anyone who brings this up is...
> 
> Why didn't they just drink the water?
> 
> ...



Now, I just like useful info like this....thanks...

And ....on the same note...do you know why southern folk like spicy foods...and tabasco and the like...? compared to northern folk?

It is because like most people southern folk don't like to waste food, especially food that is turning....because of the heat.

I learned this from a british doctor who had both legs cut off and could not travel much. He was fond of condiments and travelled the world with them...from his nursing bed's bedside table.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Or...do our children need to see us being responsible?  That it is okay to enjoy things in life, as long as we don't go overboard?



Growing up in a "tee-totaler" home caused me a lot of harm.  I think my kid's have a much more healthy perspective on things than I did because beer and wine do not present a mystery to them.  



rjcruiser said:


> Just like enjoying a brownie....or enjoying some candy....a Coke...a cup of coffee.....a beer or cigar (gasp ).



Make that beer and cigar! (I also have an old Pipe I smoke tobacco in from time to time when it gets cold outside).




rjcruiser said:


> Local pizza place has $1 PBRs and it is much better imho.  But...I'm a Miller Lite fan myself.



Kroger is seeling PBR in bottles now.  That's the way to go.  I don't like it much from a can or tap.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Or...do our children need to see us being responsible? That it is okay to enjoy things in life, as long as we don't go overboard?
> 
> Just like enjoying a brownie....or enjoying some candy....a Coke...a cup of coffee.....a beer or cigar (gasp ).


 
Good point. I'm sure there is a whole list of 'stuff' we can overindulge in (Woodys...  !) and it become a stumbling block. 

How do I tell that restaruantuer that the wonderful smell coming
from his kitchen is a stumbling block to me?


_Ans:_ Walk on the other side of the street! 

_Me:_ Easier said than done! Besides, them odors seem to follow me whichever way I turn!


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Or...do our children need to see us being responsible?  That it is okay to enjoy things in life, as long as we don't go overboard?
> 
> Just like enjoying a brownie....or enjoying some candy....a Coke...a cup of coffee.....a beer or cigar (gasp ).
> 
> ...



Yes.  We certainly need to enjoy the things in life.

.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2012)

> See this thread:
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?...egalism&page=4
> 
> ...post #174



I see the post.  I do not see your point.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I see the post.  I do not see your point.



The last sentence you called my refusal to sign a "no alcohol" oath a symptom of my "self righteous war on legalism."


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2012)

Ah yes!  One of my better zingers! 


Sorry about that.  I hope I'm a bit gentler these days.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Ah yes!  One of my better zingers!
> 
> 
> Sorry about that.  I hope I'm a bit gentler these days.



It's all good, man.  I was newish, then, and going back and reading the stuff I can see how I ruffled so many feathers.....it was always unintentional, but probably not as "artful" with my words as I should have been.

Anyway, now that you remember, I am going to PM you a little more background on the oath I refused to kind-of illustrate why I was so appaled by it.


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## Woodsong (Oct 18, 2012)

One could easily argue that legalism is as deadly as alcoholism...both are bad for the soul and lead you away from Jesus.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 18, 2012)

Amen...





Woodsong said:


> One could easily argue that legalism is as deadly as alcoholism...both are bad for the soul and lead you away from Jesus.


 
Hey bro, welcome back! Been a while since you've been around these parts!


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2012)

Alcohol can be a bad thing...we all know that. It can be the downfall of many of us. Just like eating too much sugar or being a junk food junkie.

That being said....miller lite for me, too. Or boone's farm sangria. Either one keeps the spooks away when I'm trying to sleep.


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## Woodsong (Oct 18, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Amen...
> 
> Hey bro, welcome back! Been a while since you've been around these parts!




Hey Striper!!  Yeah- it's been a while- like a few years!!!  
Life and other pursuits got me busy and haven't been hunting in ages. My son is 10 now though and wants to hunt so we're getting back into it and that got me checking the forums out again. Great to see you still around and hope you are doing good!


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## Jeffriesw (Oct 24, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> If it wasn't fermented / alcoholic they would not have called Jesus a "wine bibber."  It's that easy.



Uncommon, common sense. Thanks Dawg.




rjcruiser said:


> Me too.  I was even part of a church where the pastor wrote it in the by-laws that the congregation should not only abstain from alcohol, but also keep from going to restaurants that served it.
> 
> Needless to say, I didn't stay too much longer at that church.




I'm right there with you Brother, I left one like that myself. It is a mighty dangerous place to find yourself in a place that elevates their word on a matter above God's own.



JB0704 said:


> It's all good, man.  I was newish, then, and going back and reading the stuff I can see how I ruffled so many feathers.....it was always unintentional, but probably not as "artful" with my words as I should have been.
> 
> Anyway, now that you remember, I am going to PM you a little more background on the oath I refused to kind-of illustrate why I was so appaled by it.



Haven't we all


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## Bama4me (Oct 24, 2012)

Well... I just can't come to the conclusion of everyone else on the thread.  There are several things which have to be taken into consideration when asking "what kind of wine did Jesus make?".

First, the word translated "wine" in the New Testament is used to describe at least three things:  (1) unfermented grape juice, (2) fermented grape juice, and (3) medicine ingested to treat health issues.  Thus, because the word itself doesn't specify the kind of wine, the context must be allowed to determine the answer.  John 2 doesn't contain any "contextual evidence" to point to either #1 or #2 (it seems #3 is not under consideration).

Second, even if alcoholic wine is specified, we cannot be certain of the percentage of alcohol in it.  If it was just enough to kill common germs, that's one thing.  If it was the same composition of alcoholic beverages today, that's another thing entirely.  Ancient study of alcoholic drinks show a great difference in the alcoholic content of drinks then and now... with those produced today containing a much higher percentage of alcohol than those in ancient times.  Thus, to call something "alcoholic wine" in the days of Jesus might be different that saying the same thing in today's world.

Third, Habakkuk 2:15 condemned giving one's neighbor a strong drink which would make him drunken.  Since Jesus was sinlessly perfect, we have to affirm that no one at the wedding became drunken... or else we contradict what is said of Christ in Hebrews 4:15.  Wait... John 2:10 claimed by this point in the wedding feast, the guests had "drunk freely".  Were they already drunk when Jesus made the wine?  Or did He make an alcoholic drink after they had been drinking a non-alcoholic drink?  Or was all the wine in question "non-alcholic"?  

Contextually, it would be a good idea to study a different idea from John 2:1-10.  Check out the question "what is meant by 'good wine' and 'poor wine'?"  Be happy to say a few things about it later... after I get roundly scolded for presenting such things.


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## JB0704 (Oct 24, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> Well... I just can't come to the conclusion of everyone else on the thread.  There are several things which have to be taken into consideration when asking "what kind of wine did Jesus make?".
> 
> First, the word translated "wine" in the New Testament is used to describe at least three things:  (1) unfermented grape juice, (2) fermented grape juice, and (3) medicine ingested to treat health issues.  Thus, because the word itself doesn't specify the kind of wine, the context must be allowed to determine the answer.  John 2 doesn't contain any "contextual evidence" to point to either #1 or #2 (it seems #3 is not under consideration).
> 
> ...



Legalist 

Kidding, it's all good.  That is much the same case I heard at Liberty.  I do tend to disagree given the nature of the event, and the reaction of the drinkers......

.....how many beer drinkers can be given a non-alcoholic beer and claim it to be good?  Even more, most weddings without alcohol are quite dull , I refuse to think Jesus would throw a lame party!


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## Ronnie T (Oct 24, 2012)

If Jesus were here today and needed to save a wedding I believe He'd turn water into iced tea, then tell us too many lives were being destroyed by booze.


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## Woodsong (Oct 24, 2012)

I know people who drink wine that are closer to Jesus than those that don't drink at all.  I know those that don't drink a drop of alcohol or caffeine that are closer to God than some I know who drink both.  It is all about the heart.  In my humble experience, God is not a one size fits all spirituality in that he fills ALL up with his holy spirit, but really, he meets everyone at different places and leads them in different directions.  Jesus is all about our spirit and how we live and why we live.  Someone who drinks wine may be better off than someone who thinks they are better b/c they don't drink.  Someone who doesn't drink may be better than someone who does drink, thinking they are better/liberated/know better than the abstaining person.  
Is it better to drink or is it better to not drink?  Each person has to make their own decision on this matter as it relates to their spiritual walk.  There is no mandate in the Bible that says no drinking though there is certainly many verses related to being sober minded.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> If Jesus were here today and needed to save a wedding I believe He'd turn water into iced tea, then tell us too many lives were being destroyed by booze.



Or perhaps He would say, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."


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## Jeffriesw (Oct 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Or perhaps He would say, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."



Sort of what I was thinking, it is not booze, drugs or anything else that destroys us, it is the sin in the world and in our lives.


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Legalist
> 
> Kidding, it's all good.  That is much the same case I heard at Liberty.  I do tend to disagree given the nature of the event, and the reaction of the drinkers......
> 
> .....how many beer drinkers can be given a non-alcoholic beer and claim it to be good?  Even more, most weddings without alcohol are quite dull , I refuse to think Jesus would throw a lame party!



"The nature of the event"... what was the nature of the event in the 1st Century?  Have you studied things that went on at Jewish weddings then... or do you assume a wedding then would be similar to a wedding today?

"Claim it to be good"... have you studied the different kinds of beverages from grapes that existed in the 1st Century? The "oinos" considered the very best in that time was not of the fermented variety... it was typically the freshest and it was produced by a very specific method.

Again... go back to context.  These people had drunk very freely - consumed a great amount of this beverage.  If we assume this is an intoxicating beverage that Jesus made, how does Jesus' actions square with Habakkuk 2:15? 

Not being a legalist or anything else... but to use this text to prove that Jesus (without question) condones social drinking requires one to go beyond what can legitimately be extracted from the passage.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> "The nature of the event"... what was the nature of the event in the 1st Century?  Have you studied things that went on at Jewish weddings then... or do you assume a wedding then would be similar to a wedding today?
> 
> "Claim it to be good"... have you studied the different kinds of beverages from grapes that existed in the 1st Century? The "oinos" considered the very best in that time was not of the fermented variety... it was typically the freshest and it was produced by a very specific method.
> 
> ...



First, it was a lighthearted post.

But, no, I have not studied Jewish weddings. I do know weddings were festive....thus the feast.  I see no reason why anybody at that event would have a problem with social drinking. I do not think Jesus opposed social drinking, as social drinking was not a big deal during the time of Jesus.  Only elders later on are forbidden to partake.  Deacons just can't have "much."  If we look at it as a whole, I find it incredibly difficult to assume that Jesus' wine was anything but "the best."

As a drinker of beer, wine, whiskey, I can vouch for the fact that non-alcoholic beverages would never make my "best" list. 

Habakuk 2:15 is an entire sentence where the second part explains the first.  The point of that verse is that it is wrong to intentionally get your neighbor drunk for nefarious purposes....not that it is wrong to give wine to your neighbor.



> 15 "Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbors, pouring it from the wineskin till they are drunk, so that he can gaze on their naked bodies.



I feel the second half is the context for the first half's mandate.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

If you want to look at it, and see that alcohol was forbidden, I am sure you can build a case.  I have heard the case, I grew up under such mandates.

If you want to look at it and see there is no mandate to abstain, I am sure you can build a case.  I am of that opinion.

Either way, I'm clear.  I will never be in church leadership, so there is zero mandate on me to abstain (see my avatar).


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## blood on the ground (Oct 25, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I wouldn't have minded a sip or 3 of what our Lord brought to the wedding!
> 
> 
> Ok, on a more serious note,
> ...



you right on with the feast! one thing though, you recon i could man the grill and flip some meat and also trade in my glass of wine for a cold bud light?


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> If Jesus were here today and needed to save a wedding I believe He'd turn water into iced tea, then tell us too many lives were being destroyed by booze.



Ronnie... did a study on the topic recently and found these statistics.

*  Drinking in America
    -  CDC reports 50% of Americans drink regularly
    -  Alcoholism is the #1 drug problem in America
    -  1 in 3 automobile crash fatalities involves alcohol
    -  18-24 year-olds use alcohol the most (% wise)

*  Underage Drinking
    -  1 in every 3 8th graders use alcohol
    -  Every day, 10,000 teens try alcohol for the 1st time
    -  Introduction to alcohol primarily occurs at home
    -  Introduction to alcohol at home occurs at ages 7-10

Luke 17:1-2 and Romans 14:20-21 speak directly to some of these statistics.  As a parent, I think about alcohol use in this manner.  If I drink, I might be able to control myself and not become addicted... but when I introduce it to my children (_when it's in the fridge at home, when they watch me drink it at dinner, etc_.) and they follow my example... will they be able to exercise the same control?  Some of the saddest people I have ever seen are parents who have seen their son/daughter die because of something they taught them to do by example.


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> First, it was a lighthearted post.
> 
> But, no, I have not studied Jewish weddings. I do know weddings were festive....thus the feast.  I see no reason why anybody at that event would have a problem with social drinking. I do not think Jesus opposed social drinking, as social drinking was not a big deal during the time of Jesus.  Only elders later on are forbidden to partake.  Deacons just can't have "much."  If we look at it as a whole, I find it incredibly difficult to assume that Jesus' wine was anything but "the best."
> 
> ...



I'm wondering how you know that no one at the wedding in Cana was opposed to social drinking... and how you can know that social drinking wasn't a problem in Jesus' time.

Habakkuk 2:15 isn't the only place in the Old Testament which talks about "strong drink".  Proverbs 20:1 and Proverbs 24:29-35 are just two examples where one is able to make a strong case against alcoholic beverages.

Regarding the "leadership" idea... just like with John 2, it seems we can magically know the "oinos" in 1 Timothy 3 is referring to fermented grape juice.  While it would seem probable that God wouldn't be referring to grape juice in the text, how do we know the "oinos" in question isn't the kind to be taken for medicinal purposes?

Knew you were being lighthearted in your answer earlier.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> I'm wondering how you know that no one at the wedding in Cana was opposed to social drinking... and how you can know that social drinking wasn't a problem in Jesus' time.



I don't see any evidence to the contrary.



Bama4me said:


> Habakkuk 2:15 isn't the only place in the Old Testament which talks about "strong drink".  Proverbs 20:1 and Proverbs 24:29-35 are just two examples where one is able to make a strong case against alcoholic beverages.



HAbakuk is relevant to getting someone drunk for nefarious purposes.  Proverbs 20 is a warning not to be "led astray" by overindulgence (good wisdom there, I learned the hard way).  I do not see where you are going with Proverbs 24.




Bama4me said:


> Regarding the "leadership" idea... just like with John 2, it seems we can magically know the "oinos" in 1 Timothy 3 is referring to fermented grape juice.  While it would seem probable that God wouldn't be referring to grape juice in the text, how do we know the "oinos" in question isn't the kind to be taken for medicinal purposes?



Why would there be a prohibition on unfermented grape juice?



Bama4me said:


> Knew you were being lighthearted in your answer earlier.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> Well... I just can't come to the conclusion of everyone else on the thread.  There are several things which have to be taken into consideration when asking "what kind of wine did Jesus make?".
> 
> First, the word translated "wine" in the New Testament is used to describe at least three things:  (1) unfermented grape juice, (2) fermented grape juice, and (3) medicine ingested to treat health issues.  Thus, because the word itself doesn't specify the kind of wine, the context must be allowed to determine the answer.  John 2 doesn't contain any "contextual evidence" to point to either #1 or #2 (it seems #3 is not under consideration).
> 
> ...



So, my question would be is it okay to drink wine that has only enough alcohol to kill the germs in it?

Do you drink any alcohol?



gemcgrew said:


> Or perhaps He would say, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man."







Bama4me said:


> Ronnie... did a study on the topic recently and found these statistics.
> 
> *  Drinking in America
> -  CDC reports 50% of Americans drink regularly
> ...



Wonder why it is only a problem in America....also, any source for the statistics?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 25, 2012)

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."

Not sure about the rest of ya'll, if I am heavy hearted, grape juice doesn't cut it.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Either way, I'm clear.  I will never be in church leadership, so there is zero mandate on me to abstain (see my avatar).



Come on now....did we all say that you couldn't be divorced and be in church leadership?


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## rjcruiser (Oct 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> "Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts."
> 
> Not sure about the rest of ya'll, if I am heavy hearted, grape juice doesn't cut it.



x2.  And it is usually the heaviest after the kids are in bed and asleep.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Come on now....did we all say that you couldn't be divorced and be in church leadership?



Nah.....it was just a fun shot to take at those who participated in that particular discussion (and the ones I have had in person)....no harm intended


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Not sure about the rest of ya'll, if I am heavy hearted, grape juice doesn't cut it.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> Ronnie... did a study on the topic recently and found these statistics.
> 
> *  Drinking in America
> -  CDC reports 50% of Americans drink regularly
> ...



On more than one occasion Paul warned against using one's freedom in Christ to the harm of someone else.  Turning our freedom into a sin.

There were needs for wine in the 1st century.
There's no need for a Christian to have a bottle of whiskey or a 12 pak in the fridge.

We don't live on islands.  We are responsible for more than ourselves.  If whatever I do negatively influences anothers life, I should take pause.

That's why, many many years ago, I decided to stay away from this dangerous drug.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> There's no need for a Christian to have a bottle of whiskey or a 12 pak in the fridge.




Unless they enjoy whiskey and beer and can do so responsibly.

I am wary of turning the discussion this way, but I do see a value in my kids seeing me drink responsibly.  I can think of a lot of situations I have been in where such influence would have been beneficial to me.

I drank way too heavily when I was young because I never saw anybody drink responsibly.....and I was taught to abstain completely.  That only lead me to curiosity, which lead to overindulgence.

I will ahve no problem if my son or daughter grows up to enjoy a glass of wine, or beer, or whiskey.  I will have a problem if they choose to do so irresponsibly, because I have taught them better.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 25, 2012)

> There's no need for a Christian to have a bottle of whiskey or a 12 pak in the fridge.



...except that Georgia is playing Florida this weekend.  

If you train up your children in the way they should go, I think many of the pitfalls you're referring to here are avoided.  If, when they are old enough to care about alcohol one way or the other, they are already in love with Christ, then their behavior and maturity will reflect that, no?




> We don't live on islands. We are responsible for more than ourselves. If whatever I do negatively influences anothers life, I should take pause.



Totally agree with this statement BTW.


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

JB... when you say "I don't see any evidence to the contrary", where are you looking?  Have you studied any of the biblical customs and how wine was made/used in ancient times?  First, it is helpful to go back and see what people in that age could/couldn't do regarding the process of preservation/fermentation.  Second, it is helpful to go back and research the kinds of "oinos" relative to Isreal.  Only after doing this can you confidently assert what you state... if you haven't, I'd suggest doing so.

Proverbs 20:1 just about _overindulgence_?  "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astry by it is not wise."  Proverbs 23:29-35 (_sorry I said Proverbs 24_) elaborates... "do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly... it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder."  Both passages warn against alcoholic drinks... specifically the idea that mankind has usually adopted an attitude of "I can responsibly handle alcohol and no one's the worse off because of it."

I've never found one alcoholic which said, "I started my drinking with the intention to become an addict."  Every addict I've ever met rues the day they took their 1st drink and hates what their life (and family's life in many cases) has become as a result of the vile drink.  And... if they could go back and relive life again, they'd stay as far away from it as humanly possible.

With that kind of backdrop in the OT about alcoholic drink, when someone tells me Jesus turned water to wine (oinos - _a term which can legitimately be rendered "unfermented grape juice_"), I'm being told that Jesus placed a beverage in front of people which He Himself (being God) referred to as a "mocker" and a "brawler".  Sorry... but I just can't buy that line of reasoning because it's chock full of contradictions.

Regarding your other questions... I've learned in my life firsthand what the Bible means about alcoholic beverages in the passages like Proverbs 23 and I've seem many who walked that road further and more severely than I did.  In learning the hard way, I don't touch the stuff today... and I'm not going to expose my children to examples which say "it's ok in moderation".  Sources on the statistics were all government sources... CDC being chief among them.  About the % of alcohol in the beverage, when you go back and research "oinos" of the 1st Century, you will find that one of the most common drinks in that day (_especially among the poor_) was a water-based beverage which had a small amount of alcoholic grape juice mixed in to prevent germs/bacteria... a far cry from alcoholic drinks of today.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 25, 2012)

> I've never found one alcoholic which said, "I started my drinking with the intention to become an addict." Every addict I've ever met rues the day they took their 1st drink and hates what their life (and family's life in many cases) has become as a result of the vile drink. And... if they could go back and relive life again, they'd stay as far away from it as humanly possible.



Same could be said of prescription drug addicts....do you also advise people to stay completely away from presrciption drugs or are they ok when used responsibly?


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Unless they enjoy whiskey and beer and can do so responsibly.
> 
> I am wary of turning the discussion this way, but I do see a value in my kids seeing me drink responsibly.  I can think of a lot of situations I have been in where such influence would have been beneficial to me.
> 
> ...



Can understand why you're wary.  So you're saying if someone had "drunk responsibly" in front of you as you were growing up, you would never have drank heavily?  I can tell you "responsible" wasn't in my vocabulary when I was in my late teens and early twenties... and it wouldn't have been there had I seen a "responsible example."

About your last statement, how will you define "responsible drinking" to your children?  Is it based on certain number of drinks, the type, the results, etc.?  And... if one of your children were to die because he/she were involved in drinking alcohol, how would you feel about things then?  You might think all these questions are the common "what would you do on a deserted island"... but these things happen every single year to thousands of families across our nation.  Our problem... we think it will never happen to us.


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Same could be said of prescription drug addicts....do you also advise people to stay completely away from presrciption drugs or are they ok when used responsibly?



You're correct... to a degree.  Prescription drugs can't be bought by simply walking into a store... and the purpose of prescription drugs differs from that of alcohol.  The guilt I've seen in parents whose children abused prescription drugs was not along the lines of "I'm sorry I ever took these pills"... it's "I'm sorry I allowed these pills to be accessed by my children."  Same for gun accidents and swimming pools for the most part.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> Can understand why you're wary.  So you're saying if someone had "drunk responsibly" in front of you as you were growing up, you would never have drank heavily?  I can tell you "responsible" wasn't in my vocabulary when I was in my late teens and early twenties... and it wouldn't have been there had I seen a "responsible example."



It's a similar concept to "preacher's kid syndome."  The things that are the most taboo are the ones which are the most appealing.  Also referred to as a "rubber band" effect.

So, if people drinking beer were normal, there wouldn't be any mystery.  I would be less inclined to seek it out, and then, when I found it, I would know when to say when....more on that below.....




Bama4me said:


> About your last statement, how will you define "responsible drinking" to your children?  Is it based on certain number of drinks, the type, the results, etc.?  And... if one of your children were to die because he/she were involved in drinking alcohol, how would you feel about things then?  You might think all these questions are the common "what would you do on a deserted island"... but these things happen every single year to thousands of families across our nation.  Our problem... we think it will never happen to us.



REsponsible would be remaining on the sober side of intoxiacation.

To the rest, what if my kid died in a hunting accident?  What if they die in sports?  How 'bout a car wreck?  There are all kinds of activities I partake in that have a hazarous potential.....so I teach them safety, I drill it constantly, I create scenarios for them see it in action.

My boy is 12.  He knows that all guns are loaded until he proves otherwise himself.  He knows that gun should never be pointed at anything he doesn't intend to kill.  He knows to never climb a tree with a loaded gun.

It is possible to train kids to handle guns responsibly.  It is also possible to train kids the dangers of alcohol, and demonstrate responsible useage.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> Same for gun accidents and swimming pools for the most part.



I feel more safe aruond my kid and guns than I do around many adults I have known and guns.  In addition, my kids are put in swim lessons every year.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 25, 2012)

> You're correct... to a degree. Prescription drugs can't be bought by simply walking into a store... and the purpose of prescription drugs differs from that of alcohol. The guilt I've seen in parents whose children abused prescription drugs was not along the lines of "I'm sorry I ever took these pills"... it's "I'm sorry I allowed these pills to be accessed by my children." Same for gun accidents and swimming pools for the most part.



You're switching from the addict to the parents of the addict.  The Ferrari that killed that kid in Atlanta last week was not dangerous when used responsibly.  But it killed him and damaged his cousin for life.  I bet those parents regret bringing that car into the house.  Neither the car, the alcohol or the prescription drugs are evil....what people do with them can be for sure.

If you ask 100 prescription drug addicts, they will all tell you exactly what you posted about alcoholics...they wish they'd never had access to them the first time.

They are not lamenting the drug, they are lamenting what happened when they began abusing the drug.

In both cases, there is very little measurable harm from responsible use.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> JB... when you say "I don't see any evidence to the contrary", where are you looking?  Have you studied any of the biblical customs and how wine was made/used in ancient times?  First, it is helpful to go back and see what people in that age could/couldn't do regarding the process of preservation/fermentation.  Second, it is helpful to go back and research the kinds of "oinos" relative to Isreal.  Only after doing this can you confidently assert what you state... if you haven't, I'd suggest doing so.



A couple of things, first is that all the negatives relative to alcohol are not against the substance, they are against the abuse of the substance.  For instance, Noah isn't blasted in the Bible for drinking alcohol....but he sure got drunk!  He didn't seem to unerstand that there was a mandate to abstain from all alcohol.  My point is there is a lot of drinking in the Bible, and all evidence seems to illustrate the negatives of overindulgence.

Second is that the word "oinos" can be looked at from different angles, and people tend to see the context they want when discussing that word.  I have heard it described as "sweet wine."  If we are talking about a Jewish wedding celebration, I am not certain I can buy into the context being "non-alcoholic."



Bama4me said:


> Proverbs 20:1 just about _overindulgence_?  "Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, and whoever is led astry by it is not wise."  Proverbs 23:29-35 (_sorry I said Proverbs 24_) elaborates... "do not look at wine when it is red, when it sparkles in the cup and goes down smoothly... it bites like a serpent and stings like an adder."  Both passages warn against alcoholic drinks... specifically the idea that mankind has usually adopted an attitude of "I can responsibly handle alcohol and no one's the worse off because of it."



I highlighted the key word in the first verse.  I am not real certain about the second, but am wondering why "do not drink" is not more clearly defined.  Again, I see a warning against over indulgence.



Bama4me said:


> I've never found one alcoholic which said, "I started my drinking with the intention to become an addict."  Every addict I've ever met rues the day they took their 1st drink and hates what their life (and family's life in many cases) has become as a result of the vile drink.  And... if they could go back and relive life again, they'd stay as far away from it as humanly possible.



I understand what you are saying here, but I would point out that the alcoholics would not have sufferred from alcohol if they had used it responsibly.

Same with guns.  They can be used for horrible things.  They can be an instrument of death.  They can also be controlled, and used recreationally, in a perfectly safe and responsible manner.



Bama4me said:


> With that kind of backdrop in the OT about alcoholic drink, when someone tells me Jesus turned water to wine (oinos - _a term which can legitimately be rendered "unfermented grape juice_"), I'm being told that Jesus placed a beverage in front of people which He Himself (being God) referred to as a "mocker" and a "brawler".  Sorry... but I just can't buy that line of reasoning because it's chock full of contradictions.



Again, the Habakuk admonishion for giving strong drink is relevant to a person using it for nefarious purposes.  One might assume Jesus was not gettin' anybody drunk, and also assume that the wine was fermented.  There is no contradiction there.




Bama4me said:


> Regarding your other questions... I've learned in my life firsthand what the Bible means about alcoholic beverages in the passages like Proverbs 23 and I've seem many who walked that road further and more severely than I did.  In learning the hard way, I don't touch the stuff today... and I'm not going to expose my children to examples which say "it's ok in moderation".  Sources on the statistics were all government sources... CDC being chief among them.  About the % of alcohol in the beverage, when you go back and research "oinos" of the 1st Century, you will find that one of the most common drinks in that day (_especially among the poor_) was a water-based beverage which had a small amount of alcoholic grape juice mixed in to prevent germs/bacteria... a far cry from alcoholic drinks of today.



The beer I drink has less than 5% alcohol in it.  The wine we usually buy ranges from 10%-15%.  I only drink whiskey occasionally on the holidays.  I understand your apprehension about alcohol, and it is well founded.  Much like many people have apprehension about guns.  I know a guy who contributes to the NRA but refuses to own a gun.....becuase he does not trust himself or his kids with them (he is right to do so because he doesn't know how to use them).  However, I do not see the prohibition.

I think we have two different arguments.

1. Is it prohibitted.
2.  Is it wise.

I think a solid case can be built against the second, but not for the first.


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> You're switching from the addict to the parents of the addict.  The Ferrari that killed that kid in Atlanta last week was not dangerous when used responsibly.  But it killed him and damaged his cousin for life.  I bet those parents regret bringing that car into the house.  Neither the car, the alcohol or the prescription drugs are evil....what people do with them can be for sure.
> 
> If you ask 100 prescription drug addicts, they will all tell you exactly what you posted about alcoholics...they wish they'd never had access to them the first time.
> 
> ...



Wouldn't y'all agree, though, that there is a difference in the things you mention versus alcohol?  For one, nothing in Scripture is said specifically about prescription drugs, going hunting, driving a vehicle, etc.  Passages which primarily apply to these things might be something like Romans 13:1 or maybe Matthew 6:33.  Second, we also don't live in a culture where every other ad on TV glorifies the lifestyle of those who use drugs in an illegal manner or speed down the highway in a Ferrari... but it does present a tempting view of alcohol use.

Most importantly, however, is that God HAS directly said something about alcohol use in His word - things which are very clear.  I agree a car or prescription drug is not evil, but Scripture doesn't allow me the same liberty to say the same about alcohol.

The reason I brought in the "parent angle" is that many of us likely have small children at home who watch everything we do with a lens of "if mom/dad does X, then X must be ok."  As Ronnie touched on earlier, we often think we live on an island to ourselves... but that's simply not true.  You and I influence someone, and Romans 14:20/Luke 17:1-2 teach us that how we conduct ourselves needs to be measured carefully because of this fact.


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## Bama4me (Oct 25, 2012)

JB... I think I've shown in my posts the differences I have with your points mentioned above.  I disagree with them and will sum it up by simply saying "I don't believe there's such a thing as 'responsible use of alcoholic beverages' when used for recreational purposes.  I believe it to be both sinful and unwise."  However, you have pointed out your beliefs on the matter... and I appreciate the spirited debate.  I hope reading all these things will lead everyone to consult God's word further and study all that God says about the matter... catch you in another thread.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> Wouldn't y'all agree, though, that there is a difference in the things you mention versus alcohol?  For one, nothing in Scripture is said specifically about prescription drugs, going hunting, driving a vehicle, etc.  Passages which primarily apply to these things might be something like Romans 13:1 or maybe Matthew 6:33.  Second, we also don't live in a culture where every other ad on TV glorifies the lifestyle of those who use drugs in an illegal manner or speed down the highway in a Ferrari... but it does present a tempting view of alcohol use.
> 
> Most importantly, however, is that God HAS directly said something about alcohol use in His word - things which are very clear.  I agree a car or prescription drug is not evil, but Scripture doesn't allow me the same liberty to say the same about alcohol.



Bama, I agree with 99% of your points except on the prohibition.

PArticularly this:



			
				Bama4me said:
			
		

> You and I influence someone, and Romans 14:20/Luke 17:1-2 teach us that how we conduct ourselves needs to be measured carefully because of this fact



I am very careful of the example I set for my kids.


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## JB0704 (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> JB... I think I've shown in my posts the differences I have with your points mentioned above.  I disagree with them and will sum it up by simply saying "I don't believe there's such a thing as 'responsible use of alcoholic beverages' when used for recreational purposes.  I believe it to be both sinful and unwise."  However, you have pointed out your beliefs on the matter... and I appreciate the spirited debate.  I hope reading all these things will lead everyone to consult God's word further and study all that God says about the matter... catch you in another thread.





I enjoyed it as well.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 25, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> You and I influence someone, and Romans 14:20/Luke 17:1-2 teach us that how we conduct ourselves needs to be measured carefully because of this fact.


Interesting that you would provide two scriptures that refer to offending a weak brother. If I have liberty to drink wine, it is not a sin for me to drink wine. Now, knowing that your conscience is bound, I would not encourage you to drink wine. The sin would be yours, not mine.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 25, 2012)

> If I have liberty to drink wine, it is not a sin for me to drink wine. Now, knowing that your conscience is bound, I would not encourage you to drink wine. The sin would be yours, not mine.



IMO, that is a 100% accurate interpretation of scripture.


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## thedeacon (Oct 25, 2012)

I cannot show anyone a scripture that tells anyone that they could not drink alcoholic beverages.

BUT

I can show you many many verses that tell you that it wouldn't be a good idea.

If you don't drink alcohol you will never abuse it.

JMO


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## Ronnie T (Oct 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Interesting that you would provide two scriptures that refer to offending a weak brother. If I have liberty to drink wine, it is not a sin for me to drink wine. Now, knowing that your conscience is bound, I would not encourage you to drink wine. The sin would be yours, not mine.



According to Romans 14 you are totally wrong and selfserving in your attitude.

According to what you say, your freedom is more important than the righteous life of another.  And that is totally contrary to scripture.

Read the following carefully.

Romans 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> According to Romans 14 you are totally wrong and selfserving in your attitude.


Or perhaps you are reading Romans 14 in a self congratulatory, legalistic manner.


Ronnie T said:


> According to what you say, your freedom is more important than the righteous life of another.


Please, you can not possibly deduce that from what I said. 

And I have told you before, 





gemcgrew said:


> I would not have a drink around you, knowing how you feel about it. I would not want to cause you to sin by way of judging me. I think that is Paul's point in 14:21.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 25, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Romans 14:13 Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14 I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15 For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16 Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18 For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19 So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.



Let's pick verse 21. Do you not serve meat at a meal with people that have high cholesterol? What about desserts if fat people are present? 
I think Jesus is saying "nothing is unclean" but an individual can make it unclean, so as his brother, don't tempt him by serving it if you know he has a weakness for it. 
This could overflow into non food/drink items or things too. I would never put a stumbling block in a brother's way. Why, out of love. I don't even need a Bible verse.
This isn't related but popped in my head. If adultery was legal, I still wouldn't do it. Why, out of love. It might not have meant anything to me but to my wife it would.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 25, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Interesting that you would provide two scriptures that refer to offending a weak brother. If I have liberty to drink wine, it is not a sin for me to drink wine. Now, knowing that your conscience is bound, I would not encourage you to drink wine. The sin would be yours, not mine.



My point didn't have to do with whether you would offend me.  It would not.
My point is that your freedom to drink would become a sin for you also, if you did not properly consider the ramifications of how your drinking might affect others.

21 It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 

I would not think less of you.  Unless you developed the "drinkers attitude".

I think verse 20 would speak to me if I drank and it had a negative impact on another person.
20 Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.

I'm not a person who demands that all Christians cease their drinking.  But I believe the Bible is very clear.  If, knowing all the negatives concerning alcoholic beverages today, I simply stood my ground demanding that I can do what I want, in my freedom, at the expense of any who might be negatively impacted by my drinking, even though I wasn't at actual fault, I would be guilty of tearing down the work of God for my own personal sake.
.
I'm not speaking legalistically, I'm updating the scriptural example to this century.


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## dawg2 (Oct 26, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> If Jesus were here today and needed to save a wedding I believe He'd turn water into iced tea, then tell us too many lives were being destroyed by booze.



Alcohol abuse is not a "modern" problem.  It was probably even more prevalent in olden days due to it was mostly what they drank and they did not have doctors to tell them the health risks.


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## JB0704 (Oct 26, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I would not think less of you.  Unless you developed the "drinkers attitude".



Mr. Ronnie, I'm not trying to pick a fight here.....but could you elaborate?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 26, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> My point didn't have to do with whether you would offend me.  It would not.
> My point is that your freedom to drink would become a sin for you also, if you did not properly consider the ramifications of how your drinking might affect others.


And I think that I have made it clear that I do consider others.


Ronnie T said:


> I would not think less of you.  Unless you developed the "drinkers attitude".


Nor would I think less of you. Unless you developed the "self righteous attitude". I was raised in it and I graduated with honors from A Form of Godliness University.


Ronnie T said:


> I'm not a person who demands that all Christians cease their drinking.  But I believe the Bible is very clear.  If, knowing all the negatives concerning alcoholic beverages today, I simply stood my ground demanding that I can do what I want, in my freedom, at the expense of any who might be negatively impacted by my drinking, even though I wasn't at actual fault, I would be guilty of tearing down the work of God for my own personal sake.


And knowing that, you shouldn't drink. We do not share the same conviction. The Holy Spirit has given me liberty to drink. I do not have a problem with alcohol. In my 50 years, I have had 1 or 2 glasses of wine, less than a case of beer and perhaps as much as a gallon of mixed drinks. I would rather have a sweet tea. 


Ronnie T said:


> I'm not speaking legalistically, I'm updating the scriptural example to this century.


Very dangerous.


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## LTE (Oct 26, 2012)

My pastor and I were talking about Jesus turning water into wine one Sunday morning.  I told him that it was obvious that it was at the afternoon, maybe evening when that feat occured.

He asked how I figured that.

I said if it had been morning, Jesus would have turned it into coffee.

He laughed and said that he liked that one.


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## Tim L (Nov 4, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Some folks take themselves way too seriously, I think.



The funny part is that the belief drinking an alcholic beverage in itself is a sin is a fairly recent belief of some western  religous groups...People throughout history made wine and it wasn't just for "medicinal" purposes....Also in areas where grains and barley were available they made beer.  Jesus and the people in the area where he lived drank wine on a regular basis and they most likely drank beer or ale....and not just to purify the water...Anyone saying a person that drinks alchol in itself is going to the hot place; well their saying Jesus us going there too....In realty if they are willing to twist the scriptures to fit a square peg in a round hole; well they may be the ones that need to worry about where they will spend eternity.....But a person should also use common sense if they are in a situation where drinking an alcoholic beverage in front of a guliable person is going to hurt their christian witness..


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