# Comments?



## WaltL1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Part 1
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/08/15/church-heres-why-people-are-leaving-you-part-1/
Part 2
http://johnpavlovitz.com/2014/08/20/church-heres-why-people-are-leaving-you-part-2/


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## JB0704 (Aug 25, 2014)

I'm still reading....but, point #1 is something I have said many, many times.  In an effort to become "relevant," the contemporary church became a show.  And, once the coolness wears off, there is little of substance.

But, that is more a conversation amongst believers


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## JB0704 (Aug 25, 2014)

Walt, thanks for posting this.......I could do entire threads on most of the points.  But, down here, I would be committing treason, upstairs, I would be bashing the church. I have discovered that discussing the ills of church is not well received, and often, the person who brings up the topic becomes the topic


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## JB0704 (Aug 25, 2014)

I can say I have definitely felt a lot of the frustration discussed in those two blog posts.

This stood out.....



> We still believe that God is big enough, and tough enough, and loving enough, even if you won’t be, and that’s why even if we do walk away, it doesn’t mean we’re walking away from faith; it’s just that faith right now seems more reachable elsewhere.



I walked away a long time ago, over 5 years.  And have tried off and on to go back.  I do feel the need to belong to a community, just looking......


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2014)

Point #1 is spot on.  I thought this was the best line in the piece:



> We can be entertained anywhere. Until you can give us something more than a Christian-themed performance piece; something that allows us space and breath and conversation and relationship, many of us are going to sleep-in and stay away.



I've been saying this for years.  The church can't compete with the world in putting on a show.


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## JB0704 (Aug 25, 2014)

There is a certain amount of irony at the bottom of his "about" page.....asking for money, after kind-a getting after the church for being about money.  Dude is spot on with about 75% of his assessment, imo, but, nobody's perfect.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2014)

Point #2 - agree somewhat.

People can get too wrapped up in theological terms, but there are some words that are timeless and will always be a a part of the gospel.

Point #3 - basically agree.

Point #4 - disagree.  These battles are shoved in our faces.

Point #5 - agree somewhat.  A lot of churches are like this.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2014)

Part 2 - agree somewhat. Some churches are like this.


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## JB0704 (Aug 25, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Part 2 - agree somewhat. Some churches are like this.



Curious, what's your pre-orthodox background?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Curious, what's your pre-orthodox background?



Druid.

Just kidding.  

I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was in a non-denominational church after that.


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## JB0704 (Aug 25, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I grew up in a Southern Baptist church and was in a non-denominational church after that.



So you spent some time in the contemporary scene?

This dude's posts seem to be calling that movement out specifically.

I grew up independent Baptist, then after a few years wandering, became non-denominational.  Then went to wanderin' again


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> So you spent some time in the contemporary scene?
> 
> This dude's posts seem to be calling that movement out specifically.
> 
> I grew up independent Baptist, then after a few years wandering, became non-denominational.  Then went to wanderin' again



Moderately contemporary.  We didn't have a band.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 25, 2014)

I'm not religious, I made that decision at a young age, my parents didn't (don't) like it, but they respected my decision.  The divide between "The Word" and today's knowledge and understanding is just too far to cross.  The stories may have worked 2000 years ago, but they're tired old fables now that can be picked apart at will by anyone willing to have an open mind.  (Oh yes, "Faith", sorry, you're going to have to do better than that if you expect me to believe something that just isn't physically possible) 

I don't care what anyone believes until it starts to interfere with the rights of others, such as, say, cutting off my countrymen's heads.  

Too many religious people use their faith as a kind of trophy to wave around and prove how much better they are than the non-believers.

The mega-churches are thriving because they are selling a product people want, and the fire & brimstone churches are failing because the younger generation doesn't want that product.

Continuing to preach the same product to a congregation that is gradually dying away (literally) is counter-productive.  Talk to the younger generations and see what they want out of a church and their religious lives, and make the needed changes.  The congregations who refuse to do that are the ones that will see their churches fail and close when their are no longer enough members to support them.

Like I said, I'm not religious, it's just simple business.  If you don't offer what people want to buy, you aren't going to stay in business.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 25, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I'm not religious, I made that decision at a young age, my parents didn't (don't) like it, but they respected my decision.  The divide between "The Word" and today's knowledge and understanding is just too far to cross.  The stories may have worked 2000 years ago, but they're tired old fables now that can be picked apart at will by anyone willing to have an open mind.  (Oh yes, "Faith", sorry, you're going to have to do better than that if you expect me to believe something that just isn't physically possible)
> 
> I don't care what anyone believes until it starts to interfere with the rights of others, such as, say, cutting off my countrymen's heads.
> 
> ...



The fire and brimstone churches are doing well.  It's the mainline denominations that are dying.  They've substituted political liberalism for Christianity.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 26, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> The fire and brimstone churches are doing well.  It's the mainline denominations that are dying.  They've substituted political liberalism for Christianity.



I see. Again, if you don't offer people what they want, you aren't going to stay in business.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 26, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I'm not religious, I made that decision at a young age, my parents didn't (don't) like it, but they respected my decision.  The divide between "The Word" and today's knowledge and understanding is just too far to cross.  The stories may have worked 2000 years ago, but they're tired old fables now that can be picked apart at will by anyone willing to have an open mind.  (Oh yes, "Faith", sorry, you're going to have to do better than that if you expect me to believe something that just isn't physically possible)
> 
> I don't care what anyone believes until it starts to interfere with the rights of others, such as, say, cutting off my countrymen's heads.
> 
> ...





> Continuing to preach the same product to a congregation that is gradually dying away (literally) is counter-productive.  Talk to the younger generations and see what they want out of a church and their religious lives, and make the needed changes.  The congregations who refuse to do that are the ones that will see their churches fail and close when their are no longer enough members to support them.


You make perfect business sense but -
some would point out that this whole "entertainment" scene was/is an attempt to do exactly what you are saying.
The problem the churches face is how much can you change the product before you are selling a different product altogether?


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## WaltL1 (Aug 26, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> I can say I have definitely felt a lot of the frustration discussed in those two blog posts.
> 
> This stood out.....
> 
> ...





> Quote:
> We still believe that God is big enough, and tough enough, and loving enough, even if you won’t be, and that’s why even if we do walk away, it doesn’t mean we’re walking away from faith; it’s just that faith right now seems more reachable elsewhere.


This is backed up by the polls that show lots and lots of people believe in God and yet the polls also show church attendance in decline.
You are definitely not alone.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 26, 2014)

JB0704 said:


> Walt, thanks for posting this.......I could do entire threads on most of the points.  But, down here, I would be committing treason, upstairs, I would be bashing the church. I have discovered that discussing the ills of church is not well received, and often, the person who brings up the topic becomes the topic


Yep it definitely puts you between a rock and a hard place.
Its a difficult subject.


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## drippin' rock (Aug 26, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> You make perfect business sense but -
> some would point out that this whole "entertainment" scene was/is an attempt to do exactly what you are saying.
> The problem the churches face is how much can you change the product before you are selling a different product altogether?



How much has the church changed since the very beginning? Did middle eastern folks 2000 years ago, use words like thou, thy, and thus?  How many people believe if you stray at all from the KJ version you are teetering on the lip of the pit?  Opinions on proper doctrine and spirituality vary as much as the people that have them, often within the same congregation. 

We tend to seek groups.  We tend to seek like minded groups.  As long as there are enough people to huddle together, there will be someone struggling to control.  Listen to me.  Do it my way.  I know best.


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## Israel (Aug 26, 2014)

The focus of the church, on the church, is both symptom and malady.

Paul said this:
for we are not as the many, adulterating the word of God, but as of sincerity -- but as of God; in the presence of God, in Christ we do speak.

What man builds, man must preserve, or try to.
Walt, you make an interesting observation as to the "selling" 
And, as to JB's concerns, and your response about the rock and the hard place, to one it may appear as any criticism is criticism of "the Church", but Paul concedes of "the many" that do just that...that is, handle things in such a manner that the "product" is no longer the original.
Of course, none of us like to be personally confronted with this, as this, nor whatever congregation we may hold dear, and one may indeed find themselves in more of presumption, and less of the spirit if setting out to do so. But, regardless, if we are to believe Paul saw anything at all, he's not reluctant to say he saw this, too.
Men making merchandise of the gospel. 

It happens.
As to where, and by whom, of course, is always a place where feathers fly. 
Suffice it to say, the seeming gospel is sold precisely where it is...sold.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 26, 2014)

People change and thus do the Church services. I once was against mega-churches and followed along the lines of the fire & brimstone services. 
Now that I believe in "grace alone" instead of "lordship salvation", I've come to believe that the Churches that teach "grace alone" is the correct path for me. This could be a mega-church or a small church. It doesn't even need to be in a building. 
Teaching grace is the Gospel and I don't believe Heaven waits for only those that congregate. I go occasionally to various denominations but there aren't many Churches that follow my "out there" views so I'm content to do what I do.
Things go in cycles from small to big and then back to small. What ever group one feels comfortable in will be the correct path for them.
I wonder if membership is also down in other organizations such as Free masonry, the American Legion, Lions Club, etc.?
I don't belong to any civic groups or fraternities. Maybe the younger generations just doesn't congregate as much as the older generations. Maybe a "Night Church" could bring in the younger generation.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Aug 26, 2014)

Artfuldoger said:
			
		

> I wonder if membership is also down in other organizations such as Free masonry, the American Legion, Lions Club, etc.?
> I don't belong to any civic groups or fraternities. Maybe the younger generations just doesn't congregate as much as the older generations. Maybe a "Night Church" could bring in the younger generation.



The answer to that question is yes, the younger generation (me, 41yrs old) aren't "joiners' like our parents were.  People younger than myself are even less likely to join civic groups or fraternities.

I joined a local Moose Lodge in the spring with some friends, quite frankly, the lodge activities are geared towards older couples and just aren't attractive to younger, single members. I try to support them when I can, but I can't do weekday golf tournaments and I can't/won't commit to lodge duties to the exclusion of other interests/responsibilities in my life.

Again, it comes to what they offer.  If I'm the only person at a lodge dinner under 65+, it really just doesn't interest me more than a time or two.  The lodge is having a tough time recruiting and retaining new members and the membership is dying or getting to old to be involved.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> The answer to that question is yes, the younger generation (me, 41yrs old) aren't "joiners' like our parents were.  People younger than myself are even less likely to join civic groups or fraternities.
> 
> I joined a local Moose Lodge in the spring with some friends, quite frankly, the lodge activities are geared towards older couples and just aren't attractive to younger, single members. I try to support them when I can, but I can't do weekday golf tournaments and I can't/won't commit to lodge duties to the exclusion of other interests/responsibilities in my life.
> 
> Again, it comes to what they offer.  If I'm the only person at a lodge dinner under 65+, it really just doesn't interest me more than a time or two.  The lodge is having a tough time recruiting and retaining new members and the membership is dying or getting to old to be involved.



I think this is part of the reason too. I'm 58 and joined the American Legion in 1980. I never really fit in with the old WWII vets that made up about 90% of the club.
My dad on the other hand had some kind of meeting to attend almost every night.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 27, 2014)

I'm thinking the Moose Lodge, book clubs etc might fit under the "people don't join things as much anymore" category but I question if that applies to Church also. I would have to guess that to a Christian going to church would be a step above that.
Both of you guys (Art & Dr.) went on to give the actual reasons ie not fit in & depends on what they have to offer, and those are some of the exact same statements in the article.
I personally wonder, if organized religion is losing its credibility in the face of changing times/attitudes and more and more people are making the separation between belief in God and belief in organized religion.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

I think young people are more open than older generations. We were more isolated to one way of thinking. Now with cable TV & the internet young people can develop more worldly views. Families move around more and younger generations are around different kinds of people. They are more open to different viewpoints on subjects like religion or homosexuality. They look and see the various religions available and their peers are OK if one isn't a conservative Christian or even a Christian. They do seperate their belief in God from organized religion.


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## Madman (Aug 27, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I see. Again, if you don't offer people what they want, you aren't going to stay in business.



Unfortunately that is true, but it is not the business of the Church to offer people what they want, but to provide what they need.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 27, 2014)

Madman said:


> Unfortunately that is true, but it is not the business of the Church to offer people what they want, but to provide what they need.



Amen!


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## WaltL1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Madman said:


> Unfortunately that is true, but it is not the business of the Church to offer people what they want, but to provide what they need.


True. However the article was about NOT getting what they need and the church providing what they DONT need.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2014)

I still contend that as we progress in Christianity we are moving closer towards God's grace and away from a works based salvation.
In actuality the modern Church has developed  this concept better than ever before.
It will open the door to more souls receiving salvation as people realize they can't save themselves.  
The future looks bright for everyone.
I know this sounds weird but I can see both sides of this argument. I'm hoping that people will see Christianity and Jesus in a new light completely different from their grandparents.
That it's no longer required for girls to wear long hair and long skirts while men wear whatever they want.


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## Madman (Aug 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> True. However the article was about NOT getting what they need and the church providing what they DONT need.



I know, my response was to the good Dr.


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