# Home defense gun



## 1gr8bldr (Oct 11, 2017)

I'm pondering getting a home defense gun other than a handguns. I have handguns but I would like something that would give me the edge. Pondering over a tactical shotgun or AR type. The AR would be better longer range, but the shotgun could be pointed rather than aimed. Less rounds for the shotgun yet  more chance of hitting the mark. I appreciate any discussion that might help me to better decide. One last version, while at the gun shop recently, a woman was purchasing some sort of tactical gun in 9mm. Not sure what it was?


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## sinclair1 (Oct 11, 2017)

I chose by determining what my wife needed. Shotgun/handgun.

The best security is having guns on every floor in every area you may be when the door gets kicked down. One tactical rifle is only good for bedtime or a noisy intruder.


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## Halfhitch (Oct 11, 2017)

Need to consider your location to neighbors as well as others in the house from a penetration standpoint.  A shotgun with a medium load (not 00) will not penetrate many walls but will skin (maybe increase shot weight in winter to compensate for heavier clothes). An AK and similar will potentially penetrate more walls and into other household members' locations (kids' rooms, etc.) or even into a neighbor's house under the right circumstances. Also, how 'long range' are you going to address an intruder? The longer range it is the more likely it would seem you'll have a problem with the stand-your-ground/castle or imminent danger arguments. Just my .02.


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## 1eyefishing (Oct 11, 2017)

I have a 20 gauge pump full of #1 buckshot that the wife can handle on the top floor and a 12 gauge pump full of #4 buckshot near the bottom of the basement stairs. Both in a position meant to be retreated to.
Several handguns scattered throughout the house, but the one near the kitchen (main) entrance will probably be the most useless.
We live on less than half an acre so an AR would only be useful for shooting up the neighborhood. For a larger  property (especially in the countryside), it may be more useful...


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## GoldDot40 (Oct 11, 2017)

I will always prefer a scatter gun vs a rifle for a home defense weapon. One reason is exactly what Halfhitch mentioned...wall penetration with a rifle.

Also, in close quarters like inside a home, a shotgun would be more efficient during a point and shoot in a low light environment. Mine has a 400 lumen light mounted on it with a red dot that's zeroed at any distance within 30ft...which about the distance of 2 decent size rooms in a house. Both are 'instant on' with a toggle easily manipulated by my trigger finger or thumb of my hand at the pump slide.


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## BriarPatch99 (Oct 11, 2017)

https://www.remington.com/other-products/model-870-tac-14

Just introduced in 20 gauge ...

I have never seen or held one ....

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/ne...fa-14-inch-remington-870-tac-14-now-20-gauge/


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## transfixer (Oct 11, 2017)

I've never understood some of the ads I see for AR platform rifles as home defense ?  Rifle rounds inside a house with sheetrock and 2x4's ?  a recipe for disaster in my opinion,  a shotgun is a logical choice,  doesn't even have to have buckshot,  birdshot at distances of 10,15,20ft  will take the fight out of pretty much any intruder, without worrying much about collateral damage.  Gun mounted lights can be a good thing, especially if its a strobe light, which can make it difficult for the intruder to see and focus,  but a plain light can be a bad thing in that it gives the bad guy something to shoot at, knowing you're right behind the light.


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## transfixer (Oct 11, 2017)

BriarPatch99 said:


> https://www.remington.com/other-products/model-870-tac-14
> 
> Just introduced in 20 gauge ...
> 
> ...



 Those are cool !   I had a Mossberg Shockwave for a few months,  just had to buy one and see what all the hype was about ,  an awesomely wicked weapon !   Fun to shoot, surprisingly the 14in barrel kept the shot in a rather tight pattern,  I was expecting it to spread more, at 20 or 25 feet it kept everything in a six inch circle. Wasn't really hard to hold onto, even with full house buckshot loads,  but a 20 gauge would be more enjoyable to shoot !


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## NOYDB (Oct 11, 2017)

Practice. Find place that you can unload a box of rounds. At least once a month. Then do it.


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## rospaw (Oct 11, 2017)

Lots of folks say AR and they are wrong in my opinion. Pump short (legal) Shotgun is the best. I use 12g but 20 would be fine. I load 1 slug first then 6 00 and a slug last. 
2 S&W m916  and a 870 riot in the shop. Two have good led lights on them.
If i hear something that makes my neck hairs stand up (doesn't happen often)  at night in bed i get up with only the shotgun in my draws. If dressed i have a pistol with me or very near and STILL would go for the shotgun. Would not even think about grabbing one of my black guns over a shotgun.


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## WayneB (Oct 12, 2017)

I picked up some Mossberg youth 20 gauges on sale many years ago, got one at each door and bedroom.
#8 birdshot will go through 3 sheets of drywall IIRC, at nearly point blank range..
It's pretty effective on Yotes up to about 15 Yds, should make a perp wanna be anywhere else.


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## Pat Tria (Oct 12, 2017)

I personally think the Taurus Judge is an excellent weapon for home defense.


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## BeerThirty (Oct 12, 2017)

there is something about the sound of cocking a pump shotgun that would make almost any intruder pee their pants and reconsider their actions...


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## Hoss78 (Oct 12, 2017)

Veper 12


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## 660griz (Oct 12, 2017)

Hoss78 said:


> Veper 12




I have one. Fun to shoot. 
I have a Mossberg 500 tactical by the bed with 8 rounds of 00 buck. Along with a G29 with 30 rounds of OMG.


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## holton27596 (Oct 12, 2017)

mossberg makes a 410 home defense pump shotgun, alternate slugs with shot, remember that that is a .41 caliber, at room distance this is devastating, plus you dont have to worry about the rounds going into your neighbors house


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## 660griz (Oct 12, 2017)

Yes, if worried about pass throughs, just use bird shot.


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## GoldDot40 (Oct 12, 2017)

BeerThirty said:


> there is something about the sound of cocking a pump shotgun that would make almost any intruder pee their pants and reconsider their actions...



Naw...it's best to have one in the chamber ready to bang. That extra 1/2 second of racking a shell could be all the difference of survival vs becoming a victim.


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## NOYDB (Oct 12, 2017)

GoldDot40 said:


> Naw...it's best to have one in the chamber ready to bang. That extra 1/2 second of racking a shell could be all the difference of survival vs becoming a victim.



If the 1/2 second to rack a shell makes a difference. You're already dead.


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## GoldDot40 (Oct 12, 2017)

NOYDB said:


> If the 1/2 second to rack a shell makes a difference. You're already dead.



And if the gun jams while you're attempting to rack it...? That slide racking screams Hollywood hero. I'll take my chances always having one in the chamber.


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## NOYDB (Oct 12, 2017)

GoldDot40 said:


> And if the gun jams while you're attempting to rack it...?



Get a different gun.

If you have a gun as your line of defense, you should have "fluffed and buffed it" and not have any fear of it jamming.


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## GoldDot40 (Oct 12, 2017)

NOYDB said:


> Get a different gun.
> 
> If you have a gun as your line of defense, you should have "fluffed and buffed it" and not have any fear of it jamming.



....only in a perfect world.

Guns can jam and have zero to do with the gun itself.


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## NOYDB (Oct 12, 2017)

GoldDot40 said:


> ....only in a perfect world.
> 
> Guns can jam and have zero to do with the gun itself.



Back to my first post.

Practice. 

A weapon doesn't jam if maintained and operated correctly.


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## SC Hunter (Oct 12, 2017)

I have a 870 3 steps from the bed in the closet, there is a glock in the nightstand on my lady's side of the bed. A ruger 9mm on top of the refrigerator, my lcp sits in a box behind the couch with my wallet and pocket stuff. The 870 has buckshot in it but if I ever go looking around at night I always have the glock just because I am so comfortable with it.


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## GoldDot40 (Oct 12, 2017)

You'd argue with a tree. The point is that any crackhead with an itchy trigger finger can pump 2 shots into somebody wasting their time trying to rack a shell in the chamber. Regardless if you have a flawless, spotless, well lubricated weapon....ANY THING could happen causing a fail to feed. It could happen due to distorted brass with a small enough flaw you didn't notice it when loading.

I've personally seen it at the range with flawless, spotless, well lubricated weapons. All jams happen during round entrance and exit.

A gun without a round in the chamber is equivalent to a ball bat. Having one ready is guaranteed to go bang at least once.

Your move...


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## B. White (Oct 12, 2017)

Keep a 18" MB 500 handy and also a MB SPX semi auto.  I figure which ever one I grab, the wife will likely grab the other.


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## MOTS (Oct 12, 2017)

Single shot Stevens 12ga with 2.75" 00 Buckshot is my door gun.


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## NOYDB (Oct 12, 2017)

I RTM, every gun I have ever owned I obtained the spec and disassembly manual from the maker. I have taken them COMPLETELY  apart. Cleaned and lubed them. Checked them for operation. I inspect every round as loaded. I have never had a jam.

But I know most aren't as OCD as I am.

If you walk out and expose yourself in a perceived hostile situation. And the perp is willing to shoot. You are already dead.


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## Darien1 (Oct 13, 2017)

In addition to my Beretta 92 I keep a 20 gauge Stoeger Double Defender with #4 Buck and a SKS Paratrooper next to the bed.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 13, 2017)

The best home defense gun you can get is a pistol caliber carbine, particularly in an AR platform.  9mm with 147 grain +P hollow points will be easy to control, easy to shoot, easy to maneuver around corners, and won't travel into the next county if you miss.  It's also lower recoil and less muzzle flash, and cheap and easy to practice with at any range.


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## GA native (Oct 13, 2017)

Just to throw some cold water on this party, most burglaries occur while the house is empty. So the best weapon for home defense is, a big nasty dog.


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## B. White (Oct 13, 2017)

GA native said:


> Just to throw some cold water on this party, most burglaries occur while the house is empty. So the best weapon for home defense is, a big nasty dog.[/QUOTE
> 
> I consider my two one-hundred pounders a deterrent, not a weapon.  I can't predict what they will do, but I know what the two legged critters here will do.  I ain't betting my life on them when I am around, long as I have the right to arm myself.


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## DannyW (Oct 16, 2017)

I fall with the shotgun guys. Mine is a Remington 870 Special Purpose 12 GA with a 20" barrel. I removed the plug so to hold 5 shells, and I put in the cylinder bore choke. It stays about 2-3 steps away from the sofa where I watch TV every evening.

It's full of coyote loads, because that was what I had handy, but in a 20-30 foot home defense situation I wonder if #4 or #6 shot might be just as effective, and less likely to unintentionally kill someone in the next room. In fact, now that I think about it, I believe I will look for a box of 3" #6 shot the next time I am at the store. That should take the starch out of any intruder trying to break down my door.

We can debate rifle vs shotgun vs pistol and semi-auto vs pump all day but the most important part is that you actually have a home defense weapon, it's handy, and you know how to properly use it. The actual weapon itself is largely a matter of what you personally feel most comfortable using.


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## 660griz (Oct 16, 2017)

DannyW said:


> We can debate rifle vs shotgun vs pistol and semi-auto vs pump all day but the most important part is that you actually have a home defense weapon, it's handy, and you know how to properly use it. The actual weapon itself is largely a matter of what you personally feel most comfortable using.



Good post.


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## kingfish (Oct 16, 2017)

Two weeks ago early morning my parents, both in their 80's, fended off an attempted home invasion at their house.  My dad pistol whipped one of the two guys who was half way in the house.  They couldn't kick in the front door so they broke through the window on the front porch.  Rather than shoot, he just basically wore the guy out with the butt of his pistol, until the guy and his partner ran off.  Long story short, mom called 911 and they got both the cracked out guys.  After all was said and done, my dad called the sheriffs department and asked what they recommended for home security, and they said a shot gun.  The reasons are it is basically point and click, way less chance of pass through and way more accurate under high adrenaline situations.  Makes a lot of sense.  This was the Jacksonville Sheriffs Office.  They also recommended the Taurus Judge pistol so looking into that too.  Both parents are fine, no harm came to them which is a blessing.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 16, 2017)

kingfish said:


> Two weeks ago early morning my parents, both in their 80's, fended off an attempted home invasion at their house.  My dad pistol whipped one of the two guys who was half way in the house.  They couldn't kick in the front door so they broke through the window on the front porch.  Rather than shoot, he just basically wore the guy out with the butt of his pistol, until the guy and his partner ran off.  Long story short, mom called 911 and they got both the cracked out guys.  After all was said and done, my dad called the sheriffs department and asked what they recommended for home security, and they said a shot gun.  The reasons are it is basically point and click, way less chance of pass through and way more accurate under high adrenaline situations.  Makes a lot of sense.  This was the Jacksonville Sheriffs Office.  They also recommended the Taurus Judge pistol so looking into that too.  Both parents are fine, no harm came to them which is a blessing.



It is an urban legend that shotguns require no aiming.

In a house setting, which will usually be a shot inside 7 yards, a shotgun pattern is only about 3-4" tops.  That still requires aim.


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## kingfish (Oct 16, 2017)

That's exactly told my parents, you still have to aim.  I think law enforcement pushes the shotgun route because of the projectile going through a target and then into something else.  However, because of their age, I think the shotgun best fits their needs.  My dad was also told that bear spray, not mace is a much better deterrent in close quarter home defense.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Oct 16, 2017)

kingfish said:


> That's exactly told my parents, you still have to aim.  I think law enforcement pushes the shotgun route because of the projectile going through a target and then into something else.  However, because of their age, I think the shotgun best fits their needs.  My dad was also told that bear spray, not mace is a much better deterrent in close quarter home defense.



I would strongly caution against using bear spray in an enclosed environment. Especially with elderly parents. The residual results could be fatal.


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## Big7 (Oct 16, 2017)

Just throwing this out there.

Before my Dad passed, I tried to get him
to go along with a Taurus - Judge.
Even told him I'd pay.

He was in pretty bad shape the last year or
so of his life. Wanted him to "point" rather than "aim".

A face full of #4 shot will do the trick.
Plus it will shoot 000 Buck and .45 Colt
if you want to.

VERY versatile wepon IMO.

I have never owned one but have a bud that 
has the 2 1/2" and 3" version. I have shot both numerous times.

If I didn't already have just about everything, That
is what I would get.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 16, 2017)

taurus judge has been tested time and again and shown worthless against anything other than snakes.  #4 buckshot from a 2.5" .410 does not have penetration power to get through bone to the important stuff.  There's a video of an officer that gets a face full of it and because the pattern gets slung open but the rifled barrel only a few pellets hit and he walked away from it.


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## John Cooper (Oct 16, 2017)

I would say the weapon you are most comfortable with would be your best bet. Whatever you decide practice practice practice with it. When you are home by yourself practice going from room to room. Have an ultra bright flashlight and practice with it also. But you're best bet is to be proficient with what you choose.


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## 660griz (Oct 17, 2017)

ryanh487 said:


> taurus judge has been tested time and again and shown worthless against anything other than snakes.  #4 buckshot from a 2.5" .410 does not have penetration power to get through bone to the important stuff.  There's a video of an officer that gets a face full of it and because the pattern gets slung open but the rifled barrel only a few pellets hit and he walked away from it.



Thank you. You saved me some typing. Why a lackluster bore round in a long barrel suddenly becomes a great weapon in a handgun is mysterious.


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## kingfish (Oct 17, 2017)

Thanks a bunch guys for the information.  My number one goal is to make sure my parents can protect themselves and I got a wealth of knowledge from this post.


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## srb (Oct 17, 2017)

Smith Governor:::
Stoeger Coach Gun:::


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## rospaw (Oct 17, 2017)

ryanh487 said:


> It is an urban legend that shotguns require no aiming.
> 
> In a house setting, which will usually be a shot inside 7 yards, a shotgun pattern is only about 3-4" tops.  That still requires aim.



But in my opinion the "BANG" of a shotgun will put MOST intruders on the run.
 I know if i was sneaking around and even heard the "racking" of a pump shotgun they would not have a chance to shoot due to me (as Forest Gump would say) I WAS RUNNING!

As a side note.... know a fellow that has a riot pump. His first load is a blank followed by 7 00. His thinking is scare them away before encountering them.? I SOMEWHAT see his reasoning and i do know he has discharged it that way once but doesn't know if he scared a person or cat!  (those are his words)
What is your thoughts on a single blank then the good stuff?


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## normaldave (Oct 17, 2017)

I'll just leave this here, a reasonable, fact-based assessment.  Made a believer out of me.
http://www.backwoodshome.com/consider-the-20-gauge-shotgun/

I did find a typo in the article, I think it should read like this:
_...the average 20-gauge shotgun load (five-eighths of an ounce of lead) will deliver to the shooter’s body via his or her shoulder only 55% of the recoil as a one-ounce charge of lead from a 12-gauge. Yet the lead delivered on target at the same velocity from a 20-gauge is 62.5% of the payload brought to impact by the one-ounce charge from a 12-gauge._

So, a Maverick 88, by Mossberg,  in 20 gauge, and 26" barrel 5+1 is $ 188 at Wally World, then order the 18.5" barrel from Mossberg, around $ 109 delivered, then you have a great dual purpose shotgun.  Add some # 2 or # 3 magnum shells and you're set.


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## BeerThirty (Oct 18, 2017)

rospaw said:


> But in my opinion the "BANG" of a shotgun will put MOST intruders on the run...



I think you could say that for any home defense gun,except maybe a squeaker like a .22.  We can debate on and on about which is the best, there is no perfect answer.  Most people run when they are being shot at, unless they're stupid.  Most home intrusions are burglaries and the criminal does not want to engage, nor enter into a full blown tactical fire fight.  Your best home defense gun is any effective gun that works for you that's within reach.

Just don't be one of those paranoid folks that needs 50  hidden guns scattered in and under every piece of furniture on every level of your home.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 18, 2017)

If you are in my house after dark and I come after you with a gun,  I don't want you running off so you can come back later or go hurt someone else. I want you dead as quickly as possible.


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## Big7 (Oct 20, 2017)

ryanh487 said:


> taurus judge has been tested time and again and shown worthless against anything other than snakes.  #4 buckshot from a 2.5" .410 does not have penetration power to get through bone to the important stuff.  There's a video of an officer that gets a face full of it and because the pattern gets slung open but the rifled barrel only a few pellets hit and he walked away from it.



Link to that? I'd love to see it.



660griz said:


> Thank you. You saved me some typing. Why a lackluster bore round in a long barrel suddenly becomes a great weapon in a handgun is mysterious.



If you have any doubt that a .410 bore from the length
of your recliner to your front door, won't kill you, get someone
to shoot you with one at that distance and get back to us.


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## ryanh487 (Oct 20, 2017)

Big7 said:


> Link to that? I'd love to see it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here you go.  Happened this past January in Troup county, GA.

Article with video (I can't get the video to embed...)http://www.wideopenspaces.com/shock...ficer-shootout-lesson-about-the-taurus-judge/

And here's a great link where the judge was tested for self defense purposes: https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-41-the-taurus-judge-vs-the-box-o-truth/

And here's round 2, using the 3" chamber judge and specialty ammo,  showing that it is still not an ideal self defense weapon: https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-53-the-taurus-judge-revisited/


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## hayseed_theology (Oct 20, 2017)

ryanh487 said:


> Here you go.  Happened this past January in Troup county, GA.
> 
> Article with video (I can't get the video to embed...)http://www.wideopenspaces.com/shock...ficer-shootout-lesson-about-the-taurus-judge/
> 
> ...



Exactly.


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## GunnSmokeer (Dec 31, 2017)

QUOTE:    "I'm pondering getting a home defense gun other than a handguns."

_ MY REPLY:  I like the idea of a long gun for  home defense. A long gun has better pointability than a handgun, and generally will have better stopping power.  A rifle/ carbine will have less muzzle climb than a big bore shotgun and can be fired faster than a handgun, too (faster if you want to keep a similar level of accuracy.)_

QUOTE:   "I have handguns but I would like something that would give me the edge. "
_ MY REPLY:
So you're an experienced shooter and gun lover, right? Whatever home defense gun you get, you'll learn how to operate it in various scenarios and failure drills, and you'll practice with it a lot, I assume._

QUOTE:  "Pondering over a tactical shotgun or AR type. The AR would be better longer range, but the shotgun could be pointed rather than aimed. Less rounds for the shotgun yet more chance of hitting the mark. I appreciate any discussion that might help me to better decide." 

_ MY REPLY: The "spread" of a shotgun pattern at typical home defense distances doesn't make much of a difference in hitting your target. Whether you use a carbine, choked shotgun, or straight cylinder bore shotgun barrel only 18" long (or even 12" -- I had one of those, too!) you will have all your pellets hitting in a paper-plate sized group at 50 feet.  It will be easy to miss if you don't aim or at least do a good job of pointing.
_

QUOTE:  "One last version, while at the gun shop recently, a woman was purchasing some sort of tactical gun in 9mm. Not sure what it was?"

_ MY REPLY: 
Several gun companies make what are generically called pistol-caliber carbines (PCC).  Some are based on the AR-15 / M4 design, and others are totally different.  I like them.   They don't have quite the stopping power of real rifle calibers like .223 or 7.62 x 39, but the 9mm carbines are less noisy and more enjoyable to practice with. Fun shooting = more trigger time on that weapon = higher chance of success if you have to use it to save your life._

_The big deciding factor for me is ammo capacity. 
I like the idea of a semi-auto carbine or short rifle that uses 20-round or 30-round magazines.   That seems more of a logical choice than a shotgun that only holds 5-7 rounds in the magazine tube and is really slow to reload.

But, I don't feel under-equipped with even a 5+1 capacity 20-gauge shotgun.  I have a lot of trigger time on my Mossberg 500 and can pump and fire that thing about as fast as a semi-auto. Six shots of 20-gauge buckshot or high-brass waterfowl/ turkey loads will probably take care of any couple of home invaders._


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## GunnSmokeer (Dec 31, 2017)

This new Ruger PC Carbine looks promising.
The barrel is as short as it can be without requiring federal registration and the NFA tax.
It takes common 9mm magazines holding 14-33 rounds made by Ruger or Glock. Yes, Ruger is giving everybody who buys this gun an adapter to use mags from Glock !  

The barrel is threaded, so you can easily put a silencer on this weapon if you want one for tactical reasons, or just for fun, or to use this little carbine for close-range hunting or varmint / predator elimination (it ought to be good for killing coyotes out to 100 yards).

https://www.ruger.com/products/pcCarbine/models.html


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## Mako22 (Dec 31, 2017)

GoldDot40 said:


> You'd argue with a tree. The point is that any crackhead with an itchy trigger finger can pump 2 shots into somebody wasting their time trying to rack a shell in the chamber. Regardless if you have a flawless, spotless, well lubricated weapon....ANY THING could happen causing a fail to feed. It could happen due to distorted brass with a small enough flaw you didn't notice it when loading.
> 
> I've personally seen it at the range with flawless, spotless, well lubricated weapons. All jams happen during round entrance and exit.
> 
> ...



If I have a long gun in my hands and it jams then I am going to butt stroke the assailant with it. This is why a long gun is superior to a pistol because in case of a jam or out of ammo I can use the butt of the weapon to bludgeon with.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 1, 2018)

> I would like something that would give me the edge.


You know what they say about opinions but heres mine -
What will give you the edge isn't what weapon (firearm) you choose to defend yourself with. Its TIME.  Time to wake up if asleep. Time to get your weapon. Time to get your thoughts together. Time to take cover. Time to confirm its not a family member. Time to dial 911 etc etc.
That means quality dead bolts, advance warning like a well trained dog, a home security system, anything that's going to alert you BEFORE you wake up with a gun in your face. At that point its not going to matter much if its a .410 or 12 gauge or 9mm or .45 that's leaning in a corner or sitting in a drawer.
Time is what will give you the edge.
After that.... theres not much that will slow an attackers heart rate down right quick like a shotgun blast to the chest.


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## steeleagle (Jan 1, 2018)

IMO: The 20 guage is the way to go for home defense. Why?

"Delivering roughly the ballistic force of two .44 Magnum rounds at once," comments the knowledgeable Ayoob, the 20 "delivers 75% of the lead for only 50-60% of the recoil".


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## WaltL1 (Jan 2, 2018)

rospaw said:


> But in my opinion the "BANG" of a shotgun will put MOST intruders on the run.
> I know if i was sneaking around and even heard the "racking" of a pump shotgun they would not have a chance to shoot due to me (as Forest Gump would say) I WAS RUNNING!
> 
> As a side note.... know a fellow that has a riot pump. His first load is a blank followed by 7 00. His thinking is scare them away before encountering them.? I SOMEWHAT see his reasoning and i do know he has discharged it that way once but doesn't know if he scared a person or cat!  (those are his words)
> What is your thoughts on a single blank then the good stuff?


My thoughts are ....... its foolish.
If I'm pulling the trigger its because my/family life is in danger. Consider....
An attacker MIGHT get scared and run if you shoot a blank. Or....
He might return fire.
50/50 odds.
If my/my family life is in danger, 50/50 odds are NOT good enough for me.


> but doesn't know if he scared a person or cat!


I would suggest not taking/following advice from this particular fellow.


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## Jeff C. (Jan 2, 2018)

waltl1 said:


> you know what they say about opinions but heres mine -
> what will give you the edge isn't what weapon (firearm) you choose to defend yourself with. Its time.  Time to wake up if asleep. Time to get your weapon. Time to get your thoughts together. Time to take cover. Time to confirm its not a family member. Time to dial 911 etc etc.
> That means quality dead bolts, advance warning like a well trained dog, a home security system, anything that's going to alert you before you wake up with a gun in your face. At that point its not going to matter much if its a .410 or 12 gauge or 9mm or .45 that's leaning in a corner or sitting in a drawer.
> Time is what will give you the edge.
> After that.... Theres not much that will slow an attackers heart rate down right quick like a shotgun blast to the chest.




boom


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## Jack Ryan (Jan 2, 2018)

Why in the world would any one say go with a shot gun, but just a little one.

Unless you shoot a pump shot gun REGULARLY like trap, sporting clays or skeet with one once a week, and NO ONE DOES THAT, why would any one recomend a pump shot gun? Any one who does shoot those games regularly with anything other than an O/U does it with a semi auto. NOT A PUMP.

If it's not the best choice for "playing games" why would you want to bet your life on it in a high stress shoot quick game for your life?

I've got a 12 gauge Remington 1100 with a slug barrel and extended mag loaded full up with 00 buck sitting in the corner beside my bed. Pick it up and pop the safety and there are 96, 33 cal pellets available in 12 bursts with every pull of the trigger. No magazines to fumble with if I do need to top it off.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 2, 2018)

Jack Ryan said:


> Why in the world would any one say go with a shot gun, but just a little one.
> 
> Unless you shoot a pump shot gun REGULARLY like trap, sporting clays or skeet with one once a week, and NO ONE DOES THAT, why would any one recomend a pump shot gun? Any one who does shoot those games regularly with anything other than an O/U does it with a semi auto. NOT A PUMP.
> 
> ...


Both have their advantages and disadvantages over the other.
For me personally, if I'm staking my life on it, I find the major advantage of a pump is if you pull the trigger and it goes click due to a faulty primer on a shell you stay on target in your shooting position, finger still on the trigger, rack the slide eject the bad one and feed a new one.
A semi auto in the same scenario typically is going to require you get off target/trigger to clear the bad shell and feed a new one, get your hand back to the trigger and get back on target.
That small time difference can cost you your life.
Its also a fact that SOME semi autos can be a bit finicky about the ammo that will reliably cycle the action.
With the advancement of ammo and semi auto actions etc. that problem is ALMOST gone.
As for a pump, you can "short shuck" the slide and cause a failure to eject/feed.
Proper training/ammo selection for either can reduce those advantages/disadvantages down to pretty much whatever you feel most comfortable with/about.


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## WayneB (Jan 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Both have their advantages and disadvantages over the other.



I have a similar mindset, we have 20G mossberg pumps strategically stashed around the house for home defense, of course we have handguns and AR's pretty readily available as well.
first choice is always the pump shotgun..

My load out is #8 bird first, then #00 buckshot.
theory behind it is birdshot will only penetrate so many layers of drywall, so downrange risk of family in a 'gotta shoot' moment is minimized, pepper someone's torso with birdshot while you maneuver to a 'safer' downrange backdrop, or wait for another family member to provide backup.

I've been peppered with #8 at around 100 yds and with several layers on in a bird field. It'll make you say words you don't want grandma to know you know, even at distance.
It shreds yotes and possums up to about 20 YD, so I know what damage to expect.
Still don't want to use one in my house, but ain't gonna risk my wife, kids or grandkids' lives on a whacked out crackhead..


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## WaltL1 (Jan 2, 2018)

WayneB said:


> I have a similar mindset, we have 20G mossberg pumps strategically stashed around the house for home defense, of course we have handguns and AR's pretty readily available as well.
> first choice is always the pump shotgun..
> 
> My load out is #8 bird first, then #00 buckshot.
> ...





> first choice is always the pump shotgun..


Same here.
There is no "perfect" choice but for me personally, all things considered, the pump scattergun comes out on top.
If you want to get completely technical about it a single shot or double barrel is probably the MOST reliable/least that can go wrong, but then you have to weigh only having one or two shots in a possible multiple attacker situation.
But as mentioned by someone earlier the most important thing is having SOMETHING that you know how to use and are prepared to use.


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 9, 2018)

My "go to" shotgun is a 20-gauge, and sometimes I put the 18.5" slug barrel on it and clamp a laser/ tactical light to the barrel just forward of the magazine cap and call this my "home defense" gun.

I have three issues with it, that I hold against it as a combat  / home defense weapon, if I'm attacked by a home invasion robbing crew (as contrasted with a single burglar).

1-- Ammo capacity.  My gun is 5+1 with 2.75" chamber shells.  I know I could get an extended mag tube to bump that up to 7+1, if I relocated my light/ laser unit.

(I prefer a semi-auto carbine that holds 20 or 30 rounds).

2-- A pump shotgun requires 2 hands to operate, to include multiple shots in a short time. A semi-auto carbine with a pistol grip type stock can be used one-handed. That's a big advantage. 

3-- NOBODY TALKS ABOUT THIS ONE MUCH, but...

From my own testing, 20-gauge buckshot (#2 and #3 were the biggest sizes I could find) just doesn't impress me as the be-all, end-all Hammer of Thor that both 12 and 20 gauge shotguns are supposed to be.  

I've shot my shotgun with that buckshot into soft pine boards, and newspapers, and the penetration is LESS than I expected.  It's basically going through about 1.5" worth of wood.

That's compared to my 9mm carry pistol, which shoves its 124-grain bullets about 4" deep into that same wood, tested the same day.

Yes, the shotgun puts several holes in the target. 
The 9mm or .38 only makes one hole at a time. But the penetration difference is significant. If I were aiming at a 230 lb muscular felon who just finished a 10 year sentence in prison, pumping iron in the gym daily, I'd have doubts about a one-shot stop from a 20 ga.

(Unless I used slugs.  Shotgun slugs really penetrate well and make a huge hole!)


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## GA native (Jan 12, 2018)

There is the Kel Tec KSG to win the debate between shotgun and rifle. Holds 14 rounds.
https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg


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## red neck richie (Jan 12, 2018)

What ever you decide make sure it is a semi auto. Since we all know full auto is illegal. With bump stocks and all. An AR15 with a red dot scope would be my recommendation. I don't like lasers or flashlights because they give away your position. But I love the red dot and 30 rounds. If it is for a female my daughter is 18 and her favorite gun to shoot is the ar15. They don't like guns with larger recoil.


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## Robert28 (Jan 13, 2018)

I actually recently changed up my home defense setup. I came across a deal on a police trade in Glock 22 gen 4 for $319. Only came with one mag but that's all I need for this gun. It just sits next to my bed on the night stand. I think it had been carried most of its life and never shot, just by looking at the overall condition of it. 40's are cheap now as everyone wants to unload them it seems, plus ammo is easy to find even in panic situations. 

Now, if things get super hairy there's the 6920 and numerous shotguns that can be deployed.


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## chase870 (Jan 13, 2018)

Regardless of type of shotgun if I am going to a gun fight 50 yards and under I will take a shot gun


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## grizzlyblake (Jan 13, 2018)

There's some interesting misinformation in this thread for sure. The old "get off my lawn!" while holding a double barrel shotgun imagery just won't go away. 


One MAJOR thing that is always missed in threads like this is that there are two kinds of dudes that will break into your house. 

1) A couple of idiot kids who need some cash for weed so they scope your place out and make sure you're gone at 1pm on a Wednesday so they can go swipe your DVD player and jewelry to pawn real quick.

2) The true "home invasion" where Roscoe and the fellas have decided well before the event that they are entering an occupied house at night with potentially armed residents. Their intentions are much, much worse than the first group. You do not want to be fooling around with trying to scare these dudes off with the sound of a pump shotgun or peppering them with some dove shot. Most likely they will be slinging lead at the first movement/sound/light they see. 

If it happens while you're watching TV or clearing the dinner table you're toast unless maybe you still have on your EDC Glock and can react instantly. If it happens while you're sleeping you better have that gun silently ready to go in the pitch black for when they come charging through your bedroom doorway. Be ready though because as soon as you touch off that nice LED weaponlight to see who's there you're going to be receiving a big dose of gunfire. 


Keeping your EDC Glock on your body until bedtime when you put it on your nightstand next to a nice Streamlight handheld, couple spare 17rd mags, and charged cellphone is probably the simplest answer. Plus if you do have to go scurrying around trying to round up kids you still have the ability to open doorknobs, pick up babies, etc. 

Keeping your AR with an Aimpoint on it somewhere close by is still a decent idea though, in case this drama plays out across the street and you have time to post guard at the front door to protect your castle from wounded Roscoe trying to find cover in your living room.


Unless you're running a drug house or are into some shady business dealings you're still about 10000x more likely to need to pull your Glock on some clown in the Walmart parking lot than reenacting the Saddam raid in your living room. These things still do happen though.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2018)

grizzlyblake said:


> There's some interesting misinformation in this thread for sure. The old "get off my lawn!" while holding a double barrel shotgun imagery just won't go away.
> 
> 
> One MAJOR thing that is always missed in threads like this is that there are two kinds of dudes that will break into your house.
> ...


So for the sake of discussion NOT argument.....


> There's some interesting misinformation in this thread for sure.


I don't see this "misinformation" you are speaking of.
I see a variety of opinions, ALL of which can be backed up/debated with facts FOR or AGAINST.
For example -


> 1) A couple of idiot kids who need some cash for weed so they scope your place out and make sure you're gone at 1pm on a Wednesday so they can go swipe your DVD player and jewelry to pawn real quick.


Well obviously not a life threatening situation so doesn't really apply. Hopefully all the guns are locked in the safe!
I would agree with #2 for the most part. I place 0 stock in the "scare them away by racking the slide" theory.
Has that worked before? I'm sure it has. Would I depend on that? Not a chance.
But for the sake of "misinformation", I'm not sure this is real accurate -


> peppering them with some dove shot.


Getting "peppered" with dove shot is what happens in a dove field from a guy shooting a couple hundred yards away.
Not sure shooting Roscoe in the chest at 20 FEET with bird shot would fall into the "peppering" category.
Is it the best choice? Lots of ballistic testing would tell you absolutely not.
But lets not suggest that bird shot at across the room distance doesn't cause some serious trauma and shock
to the human body. At that distance your basically talking about a hand sized pattern. Thats not getting peppered, that's getting hit with a sledge hammer.


> Keeping your AR with an Aimpoint on it somewhere close by is still a decent idea though,


Sure that's a great idea.
But an AR might not be the best idea for certain situations. Live in an apartment? One of those subdivisions where you can shake your next door neighbors hand through the kitchen window? Kids bedroom on the other side of the wall or just across the hall?
All of a sudden now, while not the BEST choice ballistically, bird shot has some distinct advantages over the AR that needs to be considered.

So I guess my point is, not sure "misinformation" is fair. More like multiple choices fitting various situations.


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## grizzlyblake (Jan 13, 2018)

There is tons of testing information and medical case studies online showing the effects of bird shot on humans at close range. It is not physiologically incapacitating. 

That is the misinformation. Obviously I can't link a bunch of pictures of bird shot wounds so you'll have to do that on your own. 

Here's the old box o truth stuff that's been going around for years. Bird shot only penetrates two sheets of drywall. Basically as strong as a 13 year old boy throwing an adolescent tantrum.

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box-o-truth-14-rifles-shotguns-and-walls/


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## gobbleinwoods (Jan 13, 2018)

Bird shot is not designed to incapacitate the intruder but one of two things:  make them leave asap or stun them enough so  you can do what is necessary to eliminate the threat safely.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2018)

grizzlyblake said:


> There is tons of testing information and medical case studies online showing the effects of bird shot on humans at close range. It is not physiologically incapacitating.
> 
> That is the misinformation. Obviously I can't link a bunch of pictures of bird shot wounds so you'll have to do that on your own.
> 
> ...


We've already established bird shot is not the BEST choice.
Since you wouldn't be attacked by drywall and I don't have a clue how the strength of a 13 yr old boy having a temper tantrum applies... lets go with something a bit more accurate -
This establishes why bird shot isn't the best choice and it also establishes the performance it does have -


The performance it does have coupled with a person who has legitimate over penetration concerns makes bird shot a legitimate choice to be considered.
1. You might miss and your bullet/shot is going somewhere.
2. Even though as you pointed out, bird shot "only" penetrates 2 sheets of drywall..... that puts the shot into the next room. Is the next room your kids room? Whos heads might be laying on their pillow six inches from that second sheet of drywall?
Some folks would sacrifice some ballistics for the peace of mind that there is less potential of "collateral damage"
Doesn't make their choice wrong if they have weighed the advantages and disadvantages.
Again, I'm not advocating the use of bird shot. Its clearly a questionable choice ballistically.
But lets be accurate about what we are discussing and how our situation can affect what is considered positive/negative.


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## WayneB (Jan 13, 2018)

I've capped yotes and possums off my back steps under 20 Yds, and they didn't run off. Was not an insta-kill but pretty devastating.

Second round in battery is 00Buck, that's enough to finish about anything.

While a Yote aint a person, I'm gonna tell you that a 3/4" hole in your hide is going to change your mind while I take the time to ensure there's nothing I value behind you for the second round.

It don't have to be deep to hurt.


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## GoldDot40 (Jan 13, 2018)

Shotgun Load Tests
...it covers birdshot as a defense round.


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## grizzlyblake (Jan 13, 2018)

I guess if you just consider your bird shot to be glorified pepper spray that's fine. 

When you wing Jamal with some #8 and then he and his three buddies toting Draco AKs ventilate you and then move on to your family I guess you can be glad you made him say "owee" before the fireworks started.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 13, 2018)

GoldDot40 said:


> Shotgun Load Tests
> ...it covers birdshot as a defense round.


I never really understood these "shoot through drywall" kind of tests. What is that supposed to be telling me? 
I'm really not anticipating somebody that's made out of drywall attacking me.
Seems like something like this is more realistic 
(not completely realistic but more realistic) than drywall if you aren't going to use ballistics gelatin -
Starts out with the drywall test then moves into meat testing at 2:30.


And theres a "shot him in the chest and he kept walking" story for just about every caliber one would be using for home defense.


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## NOYDB (Jan 13, 2018)

There will be no "show down at the OK coral" If you're sleeping, you will have no time to take a stance or calculate backgrounds. Have a gun YOU can bring to bear quickly and practice so that you aren't fumbling around trying to load or chamber a round. You will not need a second mag. Make your first shot count.


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## GoldDot40 (Jan 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I never really understood these "shoot through drywall" kind of tests. What is that supposed to be telling me?
> I'm really not anticipating somebody that's made out of drywall attacking me.


The video was highlighting the penetration through drywall because that's what most people have in their home as walls. If you have somebody made of drywall attacking you...you obviously have bigger issues.

It boils down to knowing your home and what's beyond the perp. For instance, I can walk out of my bedroom and shoot in the direction of my front or back door with a 30.06 without fear of hitting anybody else...even neighbors. "IF" the perp gets into the living room (my security system obviously failed), then I wouldn't even consider a shot with any gun because beyond him is my oldest daughter's bedroom. 

My dedicated home defense shotgun is stuffed with 00 buckshot, though I have an option to just as quickly opt for a 9mm stuffed with 124gr Speer Gold Dots or a .40 stuffed with 165gr Speer Gold Dots. The likelihood of a perp walking/running away is extremely slim.


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## GA native (Jan 14, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I never really understood these "shoot through drywall" kind of tests. What is that supposed to be telling me?
> I'm really not anticipating somebody that's made out of drywall attacking me.
> Seems like something like this is more realistic
> (not completely realistic but more realistic) than drywall if you aren't going to use ballistics gelatin -
> ...



The "through the drywall test" dispels the myth that you can shoot birdshot in the house without putting your family at risk. 

Cardinal rule #4 still applies.


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## biggsteve (Jan 15, 2018)

I just wanted to toss out something on home security....

remember, years ago, that when you went into your local gas station, a driveway 'ding-ding' bell would sound?

well, they're still available at auto parts stores for about 80 bucks.  air hose is 20 cents a foot.

I've got one mounted in my concrete drive way, up by the mail box.  the bell is on a porch post.  it can be heard in the house, in the shed, or out back.

mailman, pizza guy, visitors all hear the bell.

no surprises here, folks............if you hear the bell at midnight......?


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## GunnSmokeer (Jan 19, 2018)

I don't have a link handy, but I remember other testing (on video, posted online) of shotgun vs. rifle vs. pistol-caliber-carbine for overpenetration issues through interior walls of a home, and the result was that:

1.) All FMJ ammo and most big-game hunting ammo from rifle calibers was way overpenetrating.  Even a center of mass HIT on the home invader could still send the bullet exiting out his back, through the wall, and entering the next room with lethal velocity and mass.

2.) The LEAST penetration in an innocent victim, after the load has shot through one interior wall (2 layers of drywall spaced a few inches apart) was a TIE between:   
* .223 varmint bullets, 45-55 grains made to rapidly expand (they fragment)
*  small birdshot loads from a shotgun.

3.) Handgun rounds, even the best hollowpoints with wide mouths, had plenty of penetration after going through the drywall. They'd certainly be fatal to people on the other side.

4.)  Shotgun 00 buckshot was like the pistol-caliber hollowpoints.  Good for killin' bad guys, but also lethal to people in the next room of you miss.


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## ryanh487 (Jan 24, 2018)

This is why you should never use birdshot for home defense.  Young man in this article was shot at very close range in the back with a duck load and was fine enough to want to continue hunting.  If a teenager can keep hunting with a load of shot in his back,  what's someone determined to hurt you going to do?

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/duck-...m_medium=sendible&utm_term=mm&utm_campaign=mm


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 8, 2019)

GA native said:


> There is the Kel Tec KSG to win the debate between shotgun and rifle. Holds 14 rounds.
> https://www.keltecweapons.com/shotguns/ksg


My son purchased one of these. I hate that thing. It is very unpointable and does not even feel like a gun


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