# Looking for a Drahthaar - Help



## BGA (Oct 9, 2014)

I am looking to get my first gun dog. I have narrowed it down to a Draht because of their versatility. 

Where would the best place to get one from? 
Boy or Girl? 
Would 2 be too much to handle at first? 

Any experiences or information would be great...

Also, if you have training books that worked please let me know


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 9, 2014)

Look up vom mountain creek kennels. That's where mine came from. 2 pups the same age can be a handful. Running mine in the HZP next week!


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 9, 2014)

This is mine.. Year and 8 months.


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## OEB0630 (Oct 10, 2014)

I initially thought I wanted a Draht - but after visiting quite a few NAVHDA events, one thing kept catching my eye:  Although I love their prey drive, there is often a lack of an "off switch" - and with kids and having my dog in the house- that was a requirement. 

So, I went with a PP, and don't regret it one bit - she is great!  

As for training books - there are a plethora out there.  If you decide to join NAVHDA you'll get the green bible; which has been helpful for me.  Other than that, it is a lot of mixing your style with a certain training style.


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## Mumpy (Oct 10, 2014)

The breeder of my Draht cohanseydd.com is breeding again soon and I think he has openings. Knox has an On and Off switch like no other dog I've ever seen. Even better than other Drahts. I will take Knox off the tie up and into the field where he'll hunt quail for 30 or so minutes and then put him back on the tie up where he'll simply lay down and wait for his turn again. I also think if this is your first Draht, getting two will be to much to handle IMO. I'd get one through the VJP and the HZP and then get a second one.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 10, 2014)

The ones I have been around turn it on and off like a switch... My dog loves to play and just be a house dog to. Better then my Boykin has ever been.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 10, 2014)

I can set my dog down and she will lay there till I give her the release command.


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## BGA (Oct 10, 2014)

OEB0630 said:


> I initially thought I wanted a Draht - but after visiting quite a few NAVHDA events, one thing kept catching my eye:  Although I love their prey drive, there is often a lack of an "off switch" - and with kids and having my dog in the house- that was a requirement.
> 
> So, I went with a PP, and don't regret it one bit - she is great!
> 
> As for training books - there are a plethora out there.  If you decide to join NAVHDA you'll get the green bible; which has been helpful for me.  Other than that, it is a lot of mixing your style with a certain training style.



Sorry what is a PP?


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## Mumpy (Oct 10, 2014)

PP is a Pudelpointer which is one of the 4 breeds the Drahthaars come from. At the end of the 18th Century, a robust, fully usable dog was created in Germany from the best of the existing coarse hair breeds, Pudelpointer, Stichelhaar, and Griffon, and bred with the Deutsch Kurzhaar.


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## dbean43 (Oct 12, 2014)

How much can u expect to pay for a well bred drahthaar?


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## cowhornedspike (Oct 12, 2014)

Have had 3 over the last 20 years and there is no better versatile breed IMO but as others have said starting out with two pups would be more than a handful.

Here is a list of current or expected litters from the VDD site.
http://www.vdd-gna.org/dog-and-litter-listings/

I'll pm you some specific breeder recommendation info.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 12, 2014)

Keep in mind a lot of breader want sale you a dog if your not really gonna hunt it.


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## cowhornedspike (Oct 12, 2014)

tradhunter98 said:


> Keep in mind a lot of breader want sale you a dog if your not really gonna hunt it.



No reputable Drahthaar breeder should sell a dog to a non-hunting household.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 12, 2014)

dbean43 said:


> how much can u expect to pay for a well bred drahthaar?



1000-1500


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## Mumpy (Oct 13, 2014)

Most Drahts go between 800-1000, you'll find some in the 1200 range. If you're serious about purchasing a Draht I would suggest you get one that was born after 1 October if you plan to test due to the Age of dog during the test. Those dogs born before 1 October will need to attend the VJP this coming Spring. Those born after 1 October will have until Spring of 2016 to be tested which gives you an older dog at the puppy test which will limit the "puppy mistakes" they may make.


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## Scottyhardison (Oct 13, 2014)

First off let me say that I'm a fan of DD's and GWP's. That being said keep in mind that like all German bred dogs these guys have quite a bit more grit than normal. They also have a tendency to be more aggressive than one really wants in the house with small children. That being said proper early socialization and early training in manners is very much needed. Personally I think GWP's are generally better markers and have a little less prey drive but that's not saying they are better dogs. Both require you to find the best breeder available and look for proven lines all the way through the pedigree. Do not by a DD from anyone that claims they don't register or test their dogs chances are they are not true DD's. I guess my point is while being a great breed they are not your social labrador retriever, can be, but require much more early onset training and socialization. If your experience with training or handling strong willed heavy prey driven dogs is limited I would suggest a well bred GWP over the DD if the look is your main reason for choosing the breed. If not remember there is a reason the labrador retriever is king of the retrieving test and trial world and why they simply hold more jobs, deliever more birds, and fill more roles than any other breed, they are that good, that consistent in training and breeding & simply get the job done. Good luck

Before any DD guy jump on my case I'm not speeking about your personal dog so before you comment be honest about the breed as a hole not just your dog. Any good DD breeder will be super sellective about who the sale a pup to this practice is not just about preserving the breed standard it's also because they know how much of a handful a DD can be in the wrong environment.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 13, 2014)

They have more grit and drive then any other dog that's for sure. But my dog and my buddy's dogs are fine with kids. My budd has 3 small kids and his dog is fine with them.

Not saying that all of them are that way cause they aren't but the dogs I have been around are!!


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 13, 2014)

Very layed back inside!


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## Mumpy (Oct 13, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> That being said keep in mind that like all German bred dogs these guys have quite a bit more grit than normal. They also have a tendency to be more aggressive than one really wants in the house with small children.


I’m not sure what you are actually meaning by having a tendency to be “more aggressive” Are you meaning aggressive like wanting to play aggressively or aggressive as in aggression? Maybe you need to word that differently because every Draht I’ve come in contact with has been very loving to not only kids but also other dogs. 



Scottyhardison said:


> That being said proper early socialization and early training in manners is very much needed.


All dogs need proper early socialization and early training manners.



Scottyhardison said:


> If your experience with training or handling strong willed heavy prey driven dogs is limited I would suggest a well bred GWP over the DD if the look is your main reason for choosing the breed. If not remember there is a reason the labrador retriever is king of the retrieving test and trial world and why they simply hold more jobs, deliever more birds, and fill more roles than any other breed, they are that good, that consistent in training and breeding & simply get the job done.


I disagree with a Labrador retriever holding more jobs and filling more roles unless you are speaking about jobs and roles outside of the hunting grounds. 
Finally, I want to add that he narrowed it down to a Drahthaar due to the versatility, There’s a reason a DD is a Versatile Breed and a Labrador is a Retriever. It has been my experience that a DD is better at finding cripples than Labradors and I also believe the reason for that is their superior ability to Track over a Labrador. I also believe that the “Trials” are one of the main reasons the majority of the Labradors you find today are very hyper dogs. They’ve been bred to meet a “trial standard”.

These are just MY Opinions about Labradors vs Drahthaars


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## Scottyhardison (Oct 13, 2014)

I knew someone would get their panties in a wad. 

Fact is DD's hold a very high standard in order to breed, test have to be done and completed in order for one to even have breeding rights on their dog. Number one on the list for disqualifying characteristics is (Aggressivness & exccesive shyness), if a dog shows this it CAN NOT BREED does that mean that it doesn't produce pups of this nature? No it does not, but it IS very prominent in the breed and shows up more often than DD lovers care to admit. Go on any DD forum and you will find folks brgging about the aggressivness of the breed. The germans unlike us here in the states like a dog with much more grit. I know of several that are currently working catch dogs. Is this bad? No again, but although I'm a fan of DD's and plan on adding one in the future I still know what they are and that's certainly not the perfect dog for anyone. 

Of course all dogs need proper socialization no one claimed that a labrador or any other breed was a finished dog out of the womb. Fact is some dogs just require more of it than others and a DD is one of those breeds ask any reputable breeder. 


Disagree, that's fine. I love it when folks who own dogs "classified" as versatile breeds feel that somehow makes that breed truly more versatile. Guides from Canada sea ducks to North Dakota pheasants to Arkasas timber have chosen the labrador as number 1 for a reason. Labradors flurish in tracking work both in milatary/law enforcement as well as field work of all kinds. Scent training like EOD and Drug enforcement has more working labradors than any other breed. The labradors ease of training is unsurpassed and the roles they fill inside and out of the hunting world far surpass all other breeds combined. That my friend is versatile....

I'll say it again I'm speaking about the breed in general, not anyones individual dog. I doubt seriously if the op calls up a reputable DD breeder and honestly says "this is my first gun dog and my first attempt at self training a dog" that they'll even concider saleing him a pup.
I do hope this is clarity enough as I see it, it's crystal.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 13, 2014)

Scotty,
Step 1. Find a very hard concrete wall.
SteP 2. Commence to beating your head against it.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 13, 2014)

And here I speak for the bread and not just my dog. They have lots of grit and drive. But they are very good inside and with kids. I have maybe seen 30 DDs and all for the most part are layed back.


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## Scottyhardison (Oct 13, 2014)

Ahhh it's Joe......
the man I hate to agree with, yet often do....
If it makes the op take a harder look at his decision, then it's worth the knot on the head, for the would be dog and the op.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 13, 2014)

This is my first dog and it is a dream to train.. Fast learning and wants to do her best.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 13, 2014)

And back to the OP, this is where I got my dog from. She had been a great dog. Might check them out! http://www.vommountaincreek.com

And also this breeder tested his own dogs and helped out lots when I have some questions.


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## Scrapy (Oct 13, 2014)

tradhunter98 said:


> This is my first dog and it is a dream to train.. Fast learning and wants to do her best.




If I was to get one.  It would be about my hundredth dog to train. I have trained labs and Springers and Vislas, and Boykins> I have also trained Treeing Walkers for about as long,  And get tired and go to Original Mountain Curs and Keemer curs and Treeing Curs. Then on to Leopard Hounds. One Common thread your will see in all promotional material is versatility and sense.  Take all that with a grain of salt. $1,500 for a puppy?? Get real.


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## king killer delete (Oct 14, 2014)

I am not beating up on any breed. I have never trained a DD. But you can read all those nice books about breeds and most of the books are written by folks that are not hunters and they want to sell puppys. As Scotty has stated the Lab has been proven on the Battle fields from south east asia and all the way to the sandbox. The British army used them in WW2 as did the U.S. Army. I have duck hunted ducks for 52 soon to be 53 years. I have warmed my hands on the warm under belly of many a black dog and a few brown and yellow ones to. I have blood trailed wounded deer with a black lab and I have duck and goose hunted more that most here ever will. I have never seen a DD at a boat ramp yet. Now if that is your choice go for it. Every duck season Labs are taken into blinds with almost no formal training and most turn out to be good  meat dogs. Every year almost all of the time a lab wins a National Field Trial Championship. Every day at some air port some where in the world a lab is protecting people from bombs  , drugs and who knows what. So to say they are not the most versitale . Well you know what I mean. But if you are happy with your choice we will all be happy for you. Good Luck


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## cowhornedspike (Oct 14, 2014)

If y'all lab guys really want to know what a "versatile hunting dog" is then take the time to go to one of the advanced DD tests.  Learn what it takes to be a breeder. Understand why there are no puppy mills among true DD breeders.  Despite what KE says it is not about selling pups but rather about advancing the breed for hunting (unlike many AKC "breeders"). You could be amazed.  But of course you won't, you are "lab guys".   No one is going to change your mind...but you aren't likely to change mine either.

BTW, The op didn't ask which breed you thought he should get but rather asked some specific questions about getting a DD.  He has already figured out which breed he wants.


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## JustUs4All (Oct 14, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> BTW, The op didn't ask which breed you thought he should get but rather asked some specific questions about getting a DD.  He has already figured out which breed he wants.



But they are entitled to try the same as you might try to dissuade a poster who said, "This will be my first shotgun, I have decided on a 10 ga because of its power and range.  Where would be the best place to get one from?  Any experiences or information would be great..."

If you were a die hard 10 ga shooter you would support it.  If not (which is most probable) you would probably post a gentle suggestion that he might want to try something milder and not quite so heavy even though that 10 ga will kill anything that flies.


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## king killer delete (Oct 14, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> If y'all lab guys really want to know what a "versatile hunting dog" is then take the time to go to one of the advanced DD tests.  Learn what it takes to be a breeder. Understand why there are no puppy mills among true DD breeders.  Despite what KE says it is not about selling pups but rather about advancing the breed for hunting (unlike many AKC "breeders"). You could be amazed.  But of course you won't, you are "lab guys".   No one is going to change your mind...but you aren't likely to change mine either.
> 
> BTW, The op didn't ask which breed you thought he should get but rather asked some specific questions about getting a DD.  He has already figured out which breed he wants.



What I said was that folks that write the books are selling puppys. I dont care if it is a DD or a Lab or a pointer when they say it is about puppys. I posted some of my creds lets see yours.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

With my DD, one dog the same dog, I have run rabbits, pointed, blood tracked, retrieved. They have a very strong nose and are easy to train. I'm not knocking the labs what so ever but I have never seen one lab do all of that. I know the bread can but just not one dog. 

And beside the OP wanted a versital HUNTING dog, not a drug dog.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

I have passed the VJP hunt test with a 69.. But short of the breed test she isn't a test runner she is a hunting dog..

This is her at 6 months old picking up geese.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Here is some water work..


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Little afternoon rabbit chase..


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Afternoon walk thru the creek bottoms..


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

And a deer I shot this year that we couldn't find...

Other then the deer she was under 1 year and 2 months old.


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## BGA (Oct 14, 2014)

Thanks for all of the information. 

From my understanding, most of y'all with DD are testing them? It is necessary or recommended?


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

BGA said:


> Thanks for all of the information.
> 
> From my understanding, most of y'all with DD are testing them? It is necessary or recommended?



You didn't have to test your DD but you can't breed it I you don't.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Look, the guy wants a DD...great. I wouldn't own one but I'm not the one buying. 
Scrapy...yes, $1500 at MINIMUM for a well bred pup...and i don't have to get real.
To everyone else, Scotty hit the nail on the head...and yall have no idea how hard that is to say...all you DD guys can argue all you want but it don't make yall right. The Lab is the MOST versatile dog onbthe planet...be it testing ot hunting or otherwise....and before yall poo poo me yes, I have seen a NAVHDA test. It is a joke. I have hundreds...hundreds of HRC finished passes and AKC master passes along with several FT placements. Yes, I have trained LABS to do more than hunt or ht...I trained them to find ieds in afdirtistan for several years. I have also trained them to blood trail deer, track humans, find sheds, locate narcotics, and be assistance dogs to wounded veterans. 
So the guy wants a DD...good for him. Doesn't make yalls argument that they are the most versatile dog on the planet right. It doesn't make one breed better than another...it's all about preference. But, don't poo poo labs...especially without anything to back up your argument.


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## Mumpy (Oct 14, 2014)

BGA said:


> Thanks for all of the information.
> From my understanding, most of y'all with DD are testing them? It is necessary or recommended?


It isn’t necessary unless you plan to breed your dog and most breeders would like for you to take the dog through at least those first two tests so they can see how well their program went. The first test the VJP is nothing more than a Puppy natural ability test, honestly it shouldn’t take any training to go into that test and pass it. I believe that is how they wanted it, they wanted pups to enter untrained so you could determine the natural ability of the pup and that litter. Then there is the HZP which does require training. When I purchased my DD I welcomed the testing, it’s a great experience and it is best for not only the pup but the future pups.




Joe Overby said:


> Scrapy...yes, $1500 at MINIMUM for a well bred pup...and i don't have to get real.


Joe, you’re wrong on this pricing. I spent a good 6 or so months looking for a DD and found quite a few before I settled on my current DD. I didn’t have one breeder quote me over $1200 for a pup, so for you to say $1500 Minimum? That’s stretching it quite a bit.



Joe Overby said:


> The Lab is the MOST versatile dog onbthe planet...be it testing ot hunting or otherwise....and before yall poo poo me yes, I have seen a NAVHDA test. It is a joke. I have hundreds...hundreds of HRC finished passes and AKC master passes along with several FT placements. Yes, I have trained LABS to do more than hunt or ht...I trained them to find ieds in afdirtistan for several years. I have also trained them to blood trail deer, track humans, find sheds, locate narcotics, and be assistance dogs to wounded veterans


Joe you may be right but here is the difference I believe. With a Lab, people just don’t purchase them to be Versatile and therefore don’t train them to be that way. With a DD people purchase these dogs because they want and plan to train Versatility. I can almost guarantee you, go out and randomly find 10 DD’s all older than 1.5yrs old and see how many of those 10 DD’s can successfully Blood Track wounded deer. Then go out and randomly find 10 Labs and see how many of them will successfully Blood track a wounded deer. I bet the score would be 10 to possibly zero. Not that those Labs CAN’T but because they aren’t normally trained because that is not why who ever purchased the Lab planned for the dog.  CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, I’d almost willing to bet a few of those 10 Labs you picked randomly had never hunted before because there is a saturation of Labs that are being used for nothing more than pets.



Joe Overby said:


> So the guy wants a DD...good for him. Doesn't make yalls argument that they are the most versatile dog on the planet right. It doesn't make one breed better than another...it's all about preference. But, don't poo poo labs...especially without anything to back up your argument.


I agree


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Look, the guy wants a DD...great. I wouldn't own one but I'm not the one buying.
> Scrapy...yes, $1500 at MINIMUM for a well bred pup...and i don't have to get real.
> To everyone else, Scotty hit the nail on the head...and yall have no idea how hard that is to say...all you DD guys can argue all you want but it don't make yall right. The Lab is the MOST versatile dog onbthe planet...be it testing ot hunting or otherwise....and before yall poo poo me yes, I have seen a NAVHDA test. It is a joke. I have hundreds...hundreds of HRC finished passes and AKC master passes along with several FT placements. Yes, I have trained LABS to do more than hunt or ht...I trained them to find ieds in afdirtistan for several years. I have also trained them to blood trail deer, track humans, find sheds, locate narcotics, and be assistance dogs to wounded veterans.
> So the guy wants a DD...good for him. Doesn't make yalls argument that they are the most versatile dog on the planet right. It doesn't make one breed better than another...it's all about preference. But, don't poo poo labs...especially without anything to back up your argument.



I'm not knocking labs, I hunt with labs all the time, great dogs. But I would like to know if you have or have ever had one lab that could point, retrieve, blood track, and run rabbits?  Talking the same dog not different dogs.


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## T Tolbert (Oct 14, 2014)

Screw it get a springer and be done!


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

T Tolbert said:


> Screw it get a springer and be done!



Why would he do such a thing?? Lol


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

tradhunter98 said:


> I'm not knocking labs, I hunt with labs all the time, great dogs. But I would like to know if you have or have ever had one lab that could point, retrieve, blood track, and run rabbits?  Talking the same dog not different dogs.


Yep. I sure have. He's 12 now. He is a GRHRCH UH (thats grand hunting retriever champion upland hunter) and a AKC MH. He also points, tracks, trails and whatever else you ask him...oh, and he also had an srs 5th place and some ft qualifying finishes.


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## Mumpy (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Yep. I sure have. He's 12 now. He is a GRHRCH UH (thats grand hunting retriever champion upland hunter) and a AKC MH. He also points, tracks, trails and whatever else you ask him...oh, and he also had an srs 5th place and some ft qualifying finishes.



That dog is the exception, not the standard.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Mumpy said:


> It isn’t necessary unless you plan to breed your dog and most breeders would like for you to take the dog through at least those first two tests so they can see how well their program went. The first test the VJP is nothing more than a Puppy natural ability test, honestly it shouldn’t take any training to go into that test and pass it. I believe that is how they wanted it, they wanted pups to enter untrained so you could determine the natural ability of the pup and that litter. Then there is the HZP which does require training. When I purchased my DD I welcomed the testing, it’s a great experience and it is best for not only the pup but the future pups.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm wrong on the DD pricing, but not the lab pricing. $1500 minimum. And my argument wasn't based on the fact that most labs aren't trained versatilly...it's that they can be...

You may now return to your biased lab bashing...


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Mumpy said:


> That dog is the exception, not the standard.



Why does he have to be the exception?? How do you know all of my dogs don't do the same things they just don't have the relevant titles yet?? My 3 year old is 10x the dog my 12 year old was at his peak...he's just a baby yet.


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## Mumpy (Oct 14, 2014)

I'm not talking about your dogs, I'm fairly certain majority if not all of YOUR Dogs can and do all of the above. I'm saying YOUR Dogs are the exception of majority of Labs and not the standard because of what I stated earlier. Majority of Hunters that purchase Labs do not have Versatility in mind, they have "Fetch my Duck" in mind.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Yep. I sure have. He's 12 now. He is a GRHRCH UH (thats grand hunting retriever champion upland hunter) and a AKC MH. He also points, tracks, trails and whatever else you ask him...oh, and he also had an srs 5th place and some ft qualifying finishes.



Sounds like a jam up dog. I think that's about like the VGP test for the drahthaars. 

My point is most drahthaars are trained to run those topics most labs aren't. Doesn't mean with training that labs can't but you don't hear much of it. Thats what makes me think of a DD as a versital breed. Just how I see it others I'm sure see it differently.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Further, show me a DD with those same accomplishments. It's never been done. I can bash on versatile dogs all day long...but, that wasn't the point of my posting. My point is that you versatile guys like to bash on the labs...without anything to back up your argument. Then, someone knowledgeable disproves your argument and all of the sudden it's the "exception". None of this makes any one dog better than another, again, it's all about preference. But, don't sit here and try to convince me that a long haired bird dog can do things that a lab cant...


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Mumpy said:


> I'm not talking about your dogs, I'm fairly certain majority if not all of YOUR Dogs can and do all of the above. I'm saying YOUR Dogs are the exception of majority of Labs and not the standard because of what I stated earlier. Majority of Hunters that purchase Labs do not have Versatility in mind, they have "Fetch my Duck" in mind.



That's funny, a couple people that have posted on this thread have labs that can and do regularly everything your talking about. There's a Boykin in that mix too...


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Further, show me a DD with those same accomplishments. It's never been done. I can bash on versatile dogs all day long...but, that wasn't the point of my posting. My point is that you versatile guys like to bash on the labs...without anything to back up your argument. Then, someone knowledgeable disproves your argument and all of the sudden it's the "exception". None of this makes any one dog better than another, again, it's all about preference. But, don't sit here and try to convince me that a long haired bird dog can do things that a lab cant...



Your older dog and probly most of your dogs can do the things a DD can with out a doubt. I have heard your name and about your dogs all over. But do you think on avg. any ole DD would be more versital then most ole labs?


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## ghadarits (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> That's funny, a couple people that have posted on this thread have labs that can and do regularly everything your talking about. There's a Boykin in that mix too...



My almost two year old lab has retrieved ducks, geese, doves and 1 squirrel so far. She has also pointed a few coveys of quail and I'm talking about locked up tail stiff and front foot raised pointing like a GSP or other pointer does that we just happened by not actually hunting them.

My dog is no super dog by any stretch and I would still go with a well breed Lab if it was me.

Now with that being said I do like Drathaars they are cool hard working dogs.


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## Mumpy (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Further, show me a DD with those same accomplishments. It's never been done. I can bash on versatile dogs all day long...but, that wasn't the point of my posting. My point is that you versatile guys like to bash on the labs...without anything to back up your argument. Then, someone knowledgeable disproves your argument and all of the sudden it's the "exception". None of this makes any one dog better than another, again, it's all about preference. But, don't sit here and try to convince me that a long haired bird dog can do things that a lab cant...



It IS the exception because I have no doubt I can go out right now and find a Lab (because there are literally millions of them and 100’s of thousands of them aren’t used for hunting) but I can go out right now and go to some dog park or where ever and pick out a Lab and ask the owner, “Sir, do you think you and your Lab there help me find a Doe my buddy shot last night?” and I would bet my HOUSE the answer would be a laugh out loud. Now, go out and first of all, just finding a DD, but when you do, I bet you find that doe or at least the guy that has the DD is a hunter, unlike half the Lab owners of this world. I am not SAYING one breed is better than the other, I am saying that DD’s are a proven breed that has not been saturated with people turning them into pets because some family watched Marley and Me. I am not trying to say a DD can do things that a Lab can’t… Except, pick up a gallon of water with just their beard, Labs can’t do that.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

tradhunter98 said:


> Your older dog and probly most of your dogs can do the things a DD can with out a doubt. I have heard your name and about your dogs all over. But do you think on avg. any ole DD would be more versital then most ole labs?


Nope. I do not. After over a decade of fooling with labs, goldens, chessies, boykins, gsps and setters...I'll take a newspaper lab over the 
top bred whatever else any day.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Nope. I do not. After over a decade of fooling with labs, goldens, chessies, boykins, gsps and setters...I'll take a newspaper lab over the
> top bred whatever else any day.



Well I guess you're  a lab guy and I'm a DD guy.  I love my dog and I'm sure you love yours.

Back to the OP I would say go for it on the DD if that's what you want. I have one and she has been great!


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Mumpy said:


> It IS the exception because I have no doubt I can go out right now and find a Lab (because there are literally millions of them and 100’s of thousands of them aren’t used for hunting) but I can go out right now and go to some dog park or where ever and pick out a Lab and ask the owner, “Sir, do you think you and your Lab there help me find a Doe my buddy shot last night?” and I would bet my HOUSE the answer would be a laugh out loud. Now, go out and first of all, just finding a DD, but when you do, I bet you find that doe or at least the guy that has the DD is a hunter, unlike half the Lab owners of this world. I am not SAYING one breed is better than the other, I am saying that DD’s are a proven breed that has not been saturated with people turning them into pets because some family watched Marley and Me. I am not trying to say a DD can do things that a Lab can’t… Except, pick up a gallon of water with just their beard, Labs can’t do that.



Again, show me a DD with those accomplishments. Now which is the exception. 
Now, in reference to the over saturated pet market...just why do you think all of those people chose labs over all of those other choices??


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## cowhornedspike (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Again, show me a DD with those accomplishments. Now which is the exception.
> Now, in reference to the over saturated pet market...just why do you think all of those people chose labs over all of those other choices??



Most DD owners test in the german system and not in the AKC system.  Different testing, different goals, different biases.  You are a lab guy and nothing will change that and I am a DD guy and likewise.  BTW, This thread didn't start with lab bashing and in fact wasn't about labs at all, but it was the lab guys that jumped in and changed the direction of the thread.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Wasn't intending to bash...not pointing fingers...simply defending my breed.


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## dirtnap10 (Oct 14, 2014)

Forrest Moore. vommoorehouse.com. Check his website out and give him a call


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## BGA (Oct 14, 2014)

this thread has gone in the wrong direction. I dont care about labs, dont want a lab. 

If you have lab talk, start a thread comparing the two breeds. That way you can unload your facts about how far superior they are. 

Please get back to the topic at hand

Also, it is almost 100% agreed upon that German Shepards are the "most versatile"...


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Didn't know we had a new moderator...I'd better crawl back in my hole...us lab guys have been warned.


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## BGA (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Didn't know we had a new moderator...I'd better crawl back in my hole...us lab guys have been warned.



Really? 

Honestly, I dont care if you think the lab is a great dog. I wanted information on a DD.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

I say go for it.. You want look back, trust me!


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

Yeah really. And i didn't say anything negative concerning DDs. Unwad your britches bubba.


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## king killer delete (Oct 14, 2014)

Everybody be nice.


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## BobSacamano (Oct 14, 2014)

killer elite said:


> Everybody be nice.



Exactly. Yall settle down before I pull the trigger on this whole thread.


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## king killer delete (Oct 14, 2014)

BobSacamano said:


> Exactly. Yall settle down before I pull the trigger on this whole thread.



Bob go over in the corner and pet your Boykin. Honest debate is welcome.


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## king killer delete (Oct 14, 2014)

Every one has a point of view. Folks like dogs and it can become a sore subject. I think that each breed has its on strengths and we should respect the Mans wish to help him find what wants . He has said he does not want a lab. Does any one know a of some good DD lines?


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## BobSacamano (Oct 14, 2014)

killer elite said:


> Bob go over in the corner and pet your Boykin. Honest debate is welcome.



Finally someone names a versatile gun dog.


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## BobSacamano (Oct 14, 2014)

Doves. Ducks. Geese. Squirrels. Rabbits. Will track anything. Don't know many dogs with a better nose. Accolades to prove his worth as a Hunting Retriever Champion at 2 years old.


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## Mumpy (Oct 14, 2014)

This is where I got Knox from, he just bred Allie and told me last week she should be due in December which would get you a DD pup around mid Feb. http://www.cohanseydd.com/

PM me and I can give you his number and you can text him, Joe is a great guy as well.


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## Scottyhardison (Oct 14, 2014)

Well Dang!!!! Butt hurt much?
I never once bashed DD's just added factual information so the op could make his decision based on all aspects of the breed not just the opinions of those who hold the breed on a pedestal.

Some more important facts do a DNA test and send it to any lab and guess what they will say the breed is..... German Wirehaired Pointer yep thats right nothing seperates the two genetically. Breeding differences and desired traits is what seperates them stylistically. Now ask yourself why have all the testing? Sure it's to preserve those desired traits but the main reason not unlike the BSS is for boykins was to breed out the oh to often prevalent undesirable ones. 

This is not bashing a breed it's attempting to help out the op. I could honestly care less what he chooses to buy, but if you ask then don't you want the hole story. I run an American Cocker as a flusher/retriever and although I think the world of the little CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored and think he's the best little flusher I've ever owned I wouldn't recommend the breed to anyone else, definitely not praise the breed as a hole based on my one dog, because I'm aware of the damage that the bench bred ACS has done to the breed as      a hole. 

The op said in his original post it would be his first gun dog and asked for info on training leading to the conclusion that he was new to that area as well. So the mentioning of a labrador was the best advice I felt I could give. 

Joe (I can't believe I'm saying this....) knows what he's talking about and never bashed the DD breed either until the snott starting running from all the feelings getting hurt. Not sure why the op asked the question in the first place if all he wanted to hear was rainbows and roses about the breed don't put it on an open forum and ask for opinons. Sounds to me like your mind is made up already. So I end with this. If this is truly your breed of choice don't tell your breeder of choice you don't have experience training a gun dog, don't tell your breeder you don't really plan on going through the testing and maybe he'll sell you a pup or do tell him and if he agrees to sale you a pup he's not the breeder of DD's you want to buy from.


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## cowhornedspike (Oct 14, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> Some more important facts do a DNA test and send it to any lab and guess what they will say the breed is..... German Wirehaired Pointer yep thats right nothing seperates the two genetically. Breeding differences and desired traits is what seperates them stylistically. Now ask yourself why have all the testing? Sure it's to preserve those desired traits but the main reason not unlike the BSS is for boykins was to breed out the oh to often prevalent undesirable ones.



Not as prevalent as you act like but of course any good breed group would want to breed out the bad traits...not sure what you see wrong with that.





Scottyhardison said:


> Not sure why the op asked the question in the first place if all he wanted to hear was rainbows and roses about the breed don't put it on an open forum and ask for opinons. Sounds to me like your mind is made up already.



Seems like he stated that in his original post didn't he?





Scottyhardison said:


> So I end with this. If this is truly your breed of choice don't tell your breeder of choice you don't have experience training a gun dog,



I didn't have experience when I got my first one and that didn't exclude me from getting him or prevent me from testing him with high scores and ending up with a top notch hunting partner as a result.





Scottyhardison said:


> don't tell your breeder you don't really plan on going through the testing and maybe he'll sell you a pup or do tell him and if he agrees to sale you a pup he's not the breeder of DD's you want to buy from.



This is something we can agree on for sure...but he hasn't indicated that he wouldn't hunt and test as far as I have seen.


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

I told the breeder of my dog it was my first dog, he asked why I wanted a DD and I said I love to hunt.. Ducks, upland, rabbits and deer. Said I wasn't sure if I was going to run test but that I might. He said yeah I might have a pup I could sell you. He has been helpful and does a training day every now and then, just to see how the pups are doing. This breeder truly loves the dogs.  Ask about anybody that's big into the DD thing and they will tell you he is a good breeder.


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## Mumpy (Oct 14, 2014)

Scottyhardison said:


> Some more important facts do a DNA test and send it to any lab and guess what they will say the breed is..... German Wirehaired Pointer yep thats right nothing seperates the two genetically. Breeding differences and desired traits is what seperates them stylistically. Now ask yourself why have all the testing? Sure it's to preserve those desired traits but the main reason not unlike the BSS is for boykins was to breed out the oh to often prevalent undesirable ones.


I think you already answered the question, about why have all the testing so I won’t humor you in repeating it.  I could care less about whether or not the GWP and the DD having the same DNA. Matter of fact, I was buying a GWP before I purchased my DD and probably the smartest hunting dog I have ever had the pleasure to hunt with was a GWP. With that said, the reason I went with a DD over the GWP and where the two are separated is I know 100% that every single dog in my dogs lineage has been tested and passed the areas that are important to my style of hunting.


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## king killer delete (Oct 14, 2014)

Honest debate no insults. I want the debate but I will sink this duck boat if it gets out of hand.


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## BGA (Oct 14, 2014)

cowhornedspike said:


> Not as prevalent as you act like but of course any good breed group would want to breed out the bad traits...not sure what you see wrong with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Everyone stars somewhere... Right? 

If the breeder wants me to test, I will test. Hope that settles the air.


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## Joe Overby (Oct 14, 2014)

BGA, you are correct. Everyone does start somewhere. I actually really like the fact that reputable breeders require testing of purchased pups. I wish more lab breeders would require this when placing puppies. Your willingness to test, even at the introductory levels shows something of your commitment to training your pup and having more than just a pet. Good luck with your pup. As far as finding reputable breeders goes...try going to one of the tests and talking to the participants. Make sure your talk to folks at all levels...you'll be able to seperate the honest opinions from the bull fairly easily...


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

There is a test thur-Saturday in NC.. I will be running in it. Come up and see them work.


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## Scrapy (Oct 14, 2014)

tradhunter98 said:


> There is a test thur-Saturday in NC.. I will be running in it. Come up and see them work.



Where? when  on Saturday? will they be doing pointing, water retrieving and deer blood tracking the same day?


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 14, 2014)

Aberdeen, NC.  Sandhills game preserve. Yes it's HZP and VGP. There will be some jam up dogs there.


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## BGA (Oct 14, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> BGA, you are correct. Everyone does start somewhere. I actually really like the fact that reputable breeders require testing of purchased pups. I wish more lab breeders would require this when placing puppies. Your willingness to test, even at the introductory levels shows something of your commitment to training your pup and having more than just a pet. Good luck with your pup. As far as finding reputable breeders goes...try going to one of the tests and talking to the participants. Make sure your talk to folks at all levels...you'll be able to seperate the honest opinions from the bull fairly easily...



Appreciate it.


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## Scottyhardison (Oct 14, 2014)

Well BGA I made a couple calls for you today. After speaking with Doug Deats, Nancy Whitehead, & Tim Jones (well over 100 years combined experience in the Gun dog world at a national level & know Dr. Jim Grady personally (former VDD-GNA Chairman) one name was said by all three.... Mr. Forrest Moorehttp                                 ://vommoorehaus.com/   706) 582-2793 it just so hapens his kennel is in Georgia. Good luck and have fun with your new pup.


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## FlyingZ (Oct 15, 2014)

Check this breeder out.  My dad bought a dog from them, class act all the way.
Stillwasser Drahthaar, Scott Crabtree, Tel. 704 865 9971
http://www.vdd-gna.org/


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## tradhunter98 (Oct 15, 2014)

Got a buddy who has a dog from there.^^^


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## Mumpy (Oct 15, 2014)

Stillwasser is saying 

Carla will be bred in June 2014. 
Puppies should be born in August 2014
ready for placement in October 2014 

I'm not sure if any are still available but I would suggest that you get a Pup that was born after October due to the upcoming VJP.


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## WOODIE13 (Oct 15, 2014)

I am thinking about getting one as well, from upland to waterfowl, not looking for a master hunt champion, just one to do what I ask when I ask.  We also trained some of these, GSPs and GWHPs with good success in Afghanistan and Iraq to find bombs.


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