# Deliverer will come from Zion.



## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

Isaiah 59:20
"The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD.

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Jeremiah 31:1
"At that time," declares the LORD, "I will be the God of all the families of Israel, and they will be my people."

Jeremiah 31:37
This is what the LORD says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,"

Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls on the name of the LORD will be saved; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the LORD has said, even among the survivors whom the LORD calls.

Just noticed the Redeemer came "to" Zion.
The Deliverer will come "from" Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.


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## apoint (Mar 26, 2016)

Nice post Art. Sion, Zion, Israel is Gods forever. Gods name is written on the land. Gods blood was poured out on Mt Moriah..
There is no separation of Gods people and His land, ever.. When God returns He will go to Israel thru the Eastern gate..


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

Romans 9:27
 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

We, the Gentiles must make sure  that our liberty in Christ does not give reason to be boastful when it comes to the Jews. Reason being, we are just grafted in to their tree. The root is still Jewish.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

Romans 11:30-34
30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR?

I thank God for the Jews disobedience and his unfathomable ways.
It allowed us to be grafted in to this wonderful nourishing Jewish sap.

We are no longer strangers to this covenant God had with Abraham. We are no longer without hope and without God. No longer excluded from citizenship among the people of Israel.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2016)

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.



While that is true something had to happen to make it possible. Paul tells us that the Gentiles were not heirs of the covenant God had with Abraham. That they were without hope and without God.

What made your quote possible was the stupor of the Jews to allow us(Gentiles) to be grafted in. The Jews disobedience allowed us to become heirs of the promise.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't see how we can read Paul's letters and not see this;

Galatians 3:14
He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.15Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case.
16Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.

The covenant was already in place between God and Israel. It was duly established. No matter what my children do, they are still my children. I may temporarily abandon them for their actions but they will always be my children. I may even adopt more children but my natural children are still my children.
I may love my adopted children just as much and I would consider them equally as my children. No girls, no boys, no black kids, no white kids, all would be the same as my natural kids.

There is only one seed, the seed of Abraham and we are now a part of it through Christ. This was the secret revealed to Paul. Israel had to do something to allow us to become a part of it.

The Church did not continue as Israel. They just became a part of it. Adopted in, now heirs, with Jesus to the Kingdom. God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

I wouldn't be to boastful about this secret. 

Romans 11:18
18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.

21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.…

God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.


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## apoint (Mar 26, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't be to boastful about this secret.
> 
> Romans 11:18
> 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
> ...



This is why you have to love Israel-Jews. They are Gods  appointed and the natural branches, we are only new grafted in thru Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2016)

apoint said:


> This is why you have to love Israel-Jews. They are Gods  appointed and the natural branches, we are only new grafted in thru Jesus.



Amen, Paul knew that it would be tempting for the New Gentile believers to be prideful and arrogant towards the unbelieving Jews( branches removed) so that they could be grafted in.

Many Gentiles somehow believe the Jews are no longer chosen and they have "replaced" them.

I think they should heed Paul's warning. My analogy would be how brothers fight with each other.(God and Israel) but when someone else picks on a brother(Israel and ______) The other brother steps in.(God)
Blood(covenant)(love) is thicker than water.

I used to believe as the others(Continuation Theology) but decided to heed Paul's warning. I've been reading Paul's most excellent epistle, his letter to the Romans. 
I mean a book where in the very first chapter people who knew God neither worshiped or glorifed him, and instead exchanged worshiping God for that of idols of animals with wings, and a whole lot of other "exchanges" is a pretty interesting book!

Really though Romans explains a lot. I like it. It's my knew favorite book.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2016)

The old Covenant was made up of a physical Kingdom, a physical temple, and physical temporary sin offerings, with a physically written law, that was physically written and physically enforced, by priests.

Jesus fulfilled all of that, not just some, All of it, every jot and tittle! The remnant of Jews that existed accepted the New Covenant . Gentiles were coming in, more so than normal. Paul was bringing them in to the synagogues and much discussion was going on to see how the law affected them.

 Then in 70ad God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple, He had 1.1 million Hebrews killed, many taken into captivity and dispersed around the Roman empire. Israel was never again great, until we recognized her as a nation in 1948 she doesn't have God's protection, she has the USA' s and that has cost us blood and money.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2016)

Jews today are unbelievers. They have rejected Christ and reject His Kingdom while they want a physical Kingdom. 

 Jesus offered the unbelievers His Kingdom and they rejected it. The unbelievers offered Jesus their physical Kingdom and He rejected it. We should too, we should reject it as having anything to do with God and realize it is a created religion by the likes of Yohannan Ben Zakkai, and it is unknown in the Torah.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Jews today are unbelievers. They have rejected Christ and reject His Kingdom while they want a physical Kingdom.
> 
> Jesus offered the unbelievers His Kingdom and they rejected it. The unbelievers offered Jesus their physical Kingdom and He rejected it. We should too, we should reject it as having anything to do with God and realize it is a created religion by the likes of Yohannan Ben Zakkai, and it is unknown in the Torah.



Of course they are unbelievers.  Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Some of the branches(unbelieving Jews given a spirit of stupor) have been cut off to allow believing Gentiles to be grafted in to share the nourishing sap. 

They most definitely are unbelievers. Do not be arrogant toward those branches.(unbelievers)
You do not support the root, the root supports you.

 If they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.  "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

They are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You were once disobedient to God just like those unbelieving Jewish branches. You have been shown mercy because of their disobedience.
Because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Jews today are unbelievers. They have rejected Christ and reject His Kingdom while they want a physical Kingdom.
> 
> Jesus offered the unbelievers His Kingdom and they rejected it. The unbelievers offered Jesus their physical Kingdom and He rejected it. We should too, we should reject it as having anything to do with God and realize it is a created religion by the likes of Yohannan Ben Zakkai, and it is unknown in the Torah.



Hobbs, Elijah the prophet complained to God about the people of Israel more than you have.

He said; "LORD, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me, too."

Paul ask; Did God reject his people? By no means!

Paul says; God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.

Paul says;  I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

God chose a remnant of Jews. On what basis did he choose? What they believed? What they did? How good they were?
No, he chose them based on grace.

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

God chose or elected a remnant. God gave the others a spirit of stupor. Based on what? Grace.

I don't care if you believe your salvation was based on free will or election, Paul is telling us how these Jews at that time were chosen to be a part of the remnant and chosen for a spirit of stupor. Paul says it was not based on any works.
Paul says it was for a specific purpose. Paul calls this specific purpose a mystery or secret. Paul says it was to allow for Gentiles to be grafted in.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2016)

"
Paul says; I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin."

Paul was able to say that, Paul was able to take people to the Temple, open the Jewish book of life , and prove it.

 The people calling themselves Jews today can't say it and can't prove it. God saw to that.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Israel was never again great, until we recognized her as a nation in 1948 she doesn't have God's protection, she has the USA' s and that has cost us blood and money.



Maybe that nation isn't the nation Paul mentioned in Romans 11:26. I'm not sure what nation it is but it is a nation and not the Church. Perhaps Israel but not that group of settlers in the present occupied state.

It has to be a nation because Paul says God chose a remnant and blinded the rest, that their transgression meant riches to the Gentiles, that he hope salvation to the Gentiles would make some of Israel jealous, that their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, that if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in again, that we should not be ignorant of this mystery, that  Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, that God's gifts and his call are irrevocable, that no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established.

What ever that nation of Israel is, we as Gentiles have been grafted in. We are no longer separate from Christ, strangers to their covenant of promise, without hope and without God, and no longer excluded from citizenship in Israel.

We can be arrogant about those unbelieving Jews if we want to but it is their disobedience that allowed us to be grafted in and now able to receive the nourishing sap. 

Now maybe this has already happened but it was still the secret Paul told the Gentiles about. It was still disobedience of the Jews that allowed Gentiles to be grafted in. It was still  their rejection that brought reconciliation to the world. It was still their rejection that allowed Gentiles to no longer be strangers and foreigners to the citizenship in Israel and covenants of the promise.

Maybe all of that has happened but it still happened as Paul recalls those past events.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 28, 2016)

Hobbs,                                                                                         Perhaps the specific purpose of God giving one group salvation and the other a stupor of blindness is over as you say?

Did the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD really end election? Did it also end God's intervention in our daily lives? I guess if predestination ended at 70AD, free will started at 70AD.
The end has happened. Now it's up to us.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 28, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs,                                                                                         Perhaps the specific purpose of God giving one group salvation and the other a stupor of blindness is over as you say?
> 
> Did the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD really end election? Did it also end God's intervention in our daily lives? I guess if predestination ended at 70AD, free will started at 70AD.
> The end has happened. Now it's up to us.


Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.


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