# Are Mormon's Christians?



## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2008)

Okay..there are a couple of threads that have gotten side-tracked onto this topic.  I'm trying to condense them into one thread.


A bit of background from another one of my posts....started with me saying that Mormons don't believe Christ is God...therefore, they are not Christians....amongst other things in their religion that don't match up with the Bible.

So the question I have to Hawglips is this.

Is Christ God?


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

I can answer that: NO - Christ is God's son


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## PWalls (Dec 8, 2008)

Another can of worms RJ. A search would have been better first on this topic. But, I guess it is a condensation of several off-topic remarks in other threads.

Since the can is now open again, let's keep it civil. Cans of worms can be closed.


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## pnome (Dec 8, 2008)

From my point of view, the differences are few.   So, to me, they are just a different sect of Christianity.


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## dawg2 (Dec 8, 2008)

Yes, they are Christians.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 8, 2008)

What does the end of the book of Revelation say about additions to the word of God??  It makes a case-closed senario for many 'faiths' I'm afraid.

Try:
 
*TRACY CROOKSTON - EX MORMON TESTIMONY *

*How the “Other Woman” Led Me to Christ*
http://whyweleftmormonism.blogspot.com/2006/04/tracy-crookston-ex-mormon-testimony.html

_Here's a shorter read on the same subject:_
A Testimony of an Ex-Mormon


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## Israel (Dec 8, 2008)

Are baptists? Are catholics? Are pentecostals?
I think sometimes the ridiculously silly sounding truth of the matter is this...only disciples of Jesus... are disciples of Jesus.
Or, only new creatures in Christ...are new creatures in Christ.
There is no religious affiliation, confession, theological understanding that makes this so. 
If the truth of the gospel is this, that no man can do anything to save himself, but must come to total reliance upon the mercy of the Lord Jesus for his salvation, then how could anyone ever imagine there is salvation in "being" anything recognized by man?
If a man can say by being this, or confessing to this you are saved...then men can likewise revoke that confidence. 
A man is always and only what the Lord tells him he is...

The foundation of God stands sure having this seal...the Lord knows those who are his.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Another can of worms RJ. A search would have been better first on this topic. But, I guess it is a condensation of several off-topic remarks in other threads.
> 
> Since the can is now open again, let's keep it civil. Cans of worms can be closed.



PWalls...yes I could have done a search...but like you mentioned, the topic has come up in other threads.  I guess most of the questions we debate on a regular basis have been discussed in the past.  The only difference is that there are new members that haven't been a part of them.  I guess it just kinda goes in cycles here in the spiritual forum...kinda like the economy.

Atleast I didn't start a thread titled..."Are people who shoot dogs Christians"




ALLBEEF said:


> I can answer that: NO - Christ is God's son



Hmmm...interesting.

I'm wondering what Hawglips would say about that response due to the fact that he said I was mistaken about Mormons and their lack of belief in Christ being God.

See thread here.  http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=269878  Post 19.

So that brings up my next question.

How do Mormon's explain John 1

In the Beginning was the Word.  And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay..there are a couple of threads that have gotten side-tracked onto this topic.  I'm trying to condense them into one thread.
> 
> 
> A bit of background from another one of my posts....started with me saying that Mormons don't believe Christ is God...therefore, they are not Christians....amongst other things in their religion that don't match up with the Bible.
> ...





StriperAddict said:


> What does the end of the book of Revelation say about additions to the word of God??  It makes a case-closed senario for many 'faiths' I'm afraid.
> 
> Try:
> 
> ...





That is talking about not adding anymore to the Book of Revelation.


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

- how do you highlight only part of a post - to send a reply to?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


>



Like this?

Just delete the portion of the quote (inside the [ quote = so and so] and the [ /quote].

If you erase any of the ['s or the ]'s, it will mess up the quote box.

Now back on topic


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Like this?
> 
> :


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...interesting.
> 
> I'm wondering what Hawglips would say about that response due to the fact that he said I was mistaken about Mormons and their lack of belief in Christ being God.
> 
> .



I think you may have misunderstood Hawglips - cause we believe that God, Jesus Christ, & The Holy Ghost are 3 different beings.


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So that brings up my next question.
> 
> How do Mormon's explain John 1
> 
> In the Beginning was the Word.  And the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Like this:

We believe the Word is the Savior. 


JST, John 1:1, 14—Why Did John Call Jesus “the Word”?

Elder James E. Talmage taught that Jesus was the one “through whom the will, commandment, or word of the Father was put into effect” (Jesus the Christ, 33). He represents Heavenly Father the way a word represents an idea. Just as a word could be considered the messenger of a thing or an idea, Christ was the messenger of the Father and of His gospel, which is a plan of salvation for all mankind.


(2-1) John 1:1. How Is Jesus the Word of God?

“. . . the Father operated in the work of creation through the Son, who thus became the executive through whom the will, commandment, or word of the Father was put into effect. It is with incisive appropriateness therefore, that the Son, Jesus Christ, is designated by the apostle John as the Word; or as declared by the Father ‘the word of my power.’ (Moses 1:32.)”


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## ToLog (Dec 8, 2008)

....and meanwhile, as we speak on the internet,  the Muslims stone Satan at the hajj (as per drudgereport).

don't they sell stones to throw at the Satan over there?


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## Mako22 (Dec 8, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Yes, they are Christians.



No they aren't and no they didn't.


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## dawg2 (Dec 8, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> No they aren't and no they didn't.



Yes they did


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 8, 2008)

woodsman69 said:


> no they aren't and no they didn't.



r 2


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## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> Like this:
> 
> We believe the Word is the Savior.
> 
> ...




Ahh...can you prove your interpretation using the Bible?  or must you prove your interpretation with other books written well after the canon was closed? (ie Pearl of Great Price and Book of Mormon?)  

As a non-Mormon, I have no faith in those literary works.  There are other scriptures that point to Jesus being the Son of God.  Are there verses out of the Bible that support your position?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 8, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Yes, they are Christians.





Woodsman69 said:


> No they aren't and no they didn't.





ALLBEEF said:


> r 2



Well...I guess I'll throw in my two cents....based on the above...I'll agree with Dawg2 and Allbeef.  Yes Mormons believe in Christ....just not the Christ that is described in the Bible.


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## Mako22 (Dec 8, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Yes they did



No they didn't and no they aren't


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## twoshoes (Dec 8, 2008)

*Stop the bitterness and love thy neighbor.*

I know this is long but please be patient and read through it.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are just what the name says it is-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. 

Members of this faith believe in individual and personal testimony, not social acceptance. Members and investigators read and pray over all the scriptures and receive you own testimony. They believe in personal accountability and social responsibility. It doesn’t lean or depend on another, just like the decisions you make on election day should be based on what you believe and not by the influences of others. 

The following was taken from the LDS Church’s Website- (http://www.lds.org/library/display/0,4945,106-1-2-1,00.html)
1.	We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2.	We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
3.	We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4.	We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5.	We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6.	We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
7.	We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8.	We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9.	We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10.	We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11.	We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12.	We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13.	We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
Rather than asking others what someone believes, we don’t you ask one of the members of the particular faith what they believe. But don’t in good conscience inquire if your heart is full of guile and deception, seeking only irrational arguments and bitterness. This would be wrong because your heart and mind are being lead by the will of the Devil.

In this day and age, we should not be finding ways to find differences in each other and thereby hurting, ostracizing, and condemning others. We should be finding ways to see the similarities in each other. We should be preaching what the scriptures were intended to do, preach the good news of love, peace, and the sacrifice. That is the gospel- good news. 

Do not pound, thump, and bash the scriptures to preach hatred. Do not just focus on one book in the great canon that is the Bible. Read, ponder, and pray over all the scriptures. We must love one another and care for one another in a day and age when so many seek our destruction because of Christianity. 

We must stand together and sacrifice our time and even our lives when our families, our country, and our liberties stand to be lost by those who hate us. Remember the message in the scriptures that Jesus Christ taught- Love the God with all thy might, mind, and strength and love thy neighbor. 

It pains me to see hatred being breathed behind the veil of Christianity, just in the same way people are doing it with Islam. Christianity is service and devotion to our God. While we all may differ in our interpretation of the Trinity, it does not mean we should be finding fault with each other but instead we should be finding middle ground and respecting other’s beliefs. This is the fundamental reason this country was founded a democratic republic and why we have Freedom of Religion. We need to put off further religious persecution, and follow the example set by Jesus Christ.  

Love one another. 
Keep the commandments. 
Judge not lest ye be judged. 

We need to always treat others the way you wish to be treated. We are all children of God. 

This is the time of year we should all be better individuals and citizens. Tis the season.

Merry Christmas.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Dec 8, 2008)

To answer the original question, yes, Christ is God.  he is also God's son.  The Holy Spirit is also God, as is God the Father.  They are all one, but they are all separate.  Elohim, the Hebrew word used for "God" is, in itself, a plural word.  You'll also see that when God spoke in the septuagint, he most often said "us."  "Let _us_ make man in _our_ image."  Later in Psalm God said "Remember your _Creators_ in the days of your youth."  In the Hebrew, Genesis 1:1-3 refers to Elohim (God), Ruach Elohim (the spirit of God - Holy Spirit), and the word of God (God spake things into existence - Jesus Christ.)  

Latter Day Saints is a sect of Christianity.  I don't know all of the particulars of what they believe but I will say this: 

_If_ they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and his death and resurrection are the only things that can save a person's soul from eternal ****ation, and they rely on God's grace for forgiveness of their sins, then yes they are Christians and I think they will be in heaven.

Afterall, that's all the Bible tells us we need to do, correct?



> Joseph Smith: "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it."



 

However, iIf Mormons do not believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of the living God (Jehovah, Elohim, Yahweh,) then no, they are not Christians.  If this is the case, then disregard the stuff I typed up top.   This also applies to the good ol' Baptists, Methodists, and us Pentecostals...


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## gtparts (Dec 8, 2008)

> I know this is long but please be patient and read through it.
> 
> The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are just what the name says it is-The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
> 
> ...



While I greatly admire many of the decent and exceptional qualities expressed in Mormon life, particularly as it relates to families, the beliefs and doctrines are dichotomous. The public side is clearly, boldly and duplicitously Christian in origin. When inquiries are made of Mormons, the response is cautiously couched in Christian terms, but with a distinctly different meaning or understanding from a traditional Christian understanding. The private side of Mormon doctrine bears little or no resemblance to  anything Christian. It has apparently been lifted, modified and been repackaged by Joseph Smith and company from various secular works including ones on iconography, mythology, rites and practices, speculative "historical"  records, fiction, and whatever else was available at the library. Over the years, Mormon revelation has contradicted itself repeatedly to the point where the current unbiased examination of these would lead one to believe the Harry Potter series has a better chance of being declared nonfiction. 

Philosophically, it has some good points, but spiritually, it is leading people into error and perdition. And for that reason alone, I oppose it, as I would any cult theology.

Peace..


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## Big7 (Dec 8, 2008)

Fact is: I don't know. I guess we need to ask one?

Bet I could turn Julianne Hough into a Catholic -
real quick.

No, you with your mind in the ditch - I'm NOT
married and she ain't neither.


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## hawglips (Dec 8, 2008)

StriperAddict said:


> What does the end of the book of Revelation say about additions to the word of God??



Addict,

So then you consider those parts of the Bible written after Revelations not to be the word of God?


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## Big7 (Dec 8, 2008)

Says only Evangelicals really know what is going on.

Despite a 1200 year lapse. 

Have fun with this one guy's!


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## Mako22 (Dec 8, 2008)

Mormons give lip service to God's plan of salvation but in the end they believe baptism "by proper authority" and good works saves them. That proper authority is the  Mormon church and not any other denomination or group. Their idea of salvation is not really the same as biblical salvation either. They also believe that Jesus was a man just like everyone else and that they can one day through faithful service attain diety like Jesus did. They are a cult made up of do gooders trying to work their way towards having their own planet that they can one day be a God over. True Mormon beliefs read like a modern day science fiction novel but faithful Mormons will never let you know what they really believe. Anyone every wonder why they have such an interest in geneology? I believe it has to do with their practice of holding baptisms for the dead, another heresy.


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## hawglips (Dec 8, 2008)

gtparts said:


> While I greatly admire many of the decent and exceptional qualities expressed in Mormon life, particularly as it relates to families, the beliefs and doctrines are dichotomous. The public side is clearly, boldly and duplicitously Christian in origin. When inquiries are made of Mormons, the response is cautiously couched in Christian terms, but with a distinctly different meaning or understanding from a traditional Christian understanding. The private side of Mormon doctrine bears little or no resemblance to  anything Christian. It has apparently been lifted, modified and been repackaged by Joseph Smith and company from various secular works including ones on iconography, mythology, rites and practices, speculative "historical"  records, fiction, and whatever else was available at the library. Over the years, Mormon revelation has contradicted itself repeatedly to the point where the current unbiased examination of these would lead one to believe the Harry Potter series has a better chance of being declared nonfiction.
> 
> Philosophically, it has some good points, but spiritually, it is leading people into error and perdition. And for that reason alone, I oppose it, as I would any cult theology.
> 
> Peace..



gt,

You sound like you consider yourself to be quite the expert on Mormons and their beliefs.   And your language is rife with deliciously condescending academic-ish goobledy-gook.  

1) Please elaborate on the "dichotomas" beliefs you are referring to.
2) Also, who do you consider to be the authority on what is or is not truly Christian?  (And please don't say "the Bible", unless you qualify that with a "my interpretation" or "the traditionally accepted Nicean council's compromised intrepretations" of it.)  
3) And since you are apparently an authority on this topic, just what does it take to earn the title of "Christian," in your view?


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## Doyle (Dec 8, 2008)

While I choose not to agree with Mormon beliefs I do know that only an extremely arrogant member of the RRR (Radical Religious Right) would stoop to calling Mormons non-Christian.


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## hawglips (Dec 8, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I'm wondering what Hawglips would say about that response due to the fact that he said I was mistaken about Mormons and their lack of belief in Christ being God.



I'd say it semantics. 

Jesus Christ is the Creator.  He is Jehovah of the Old Testament.  He is the Only Begotten of God the Father.  He is the Word.  He is the Way, and only through Him can you or I or anyone else be saved.  We believe in the Jesus of the New Testament.  We believe in all His teachings -- not just in cherry-picking some of them, like most other denominations.

Mormons believe in a resurrected and living Christ, distinct and seperate in body from God the Father, but united and one with Him and the Holy Ghost in purpose.  (John 17)

Does anyone else find it interesting that officially, protestants believe in a one-being Trinity, but privately, most of the rank and file believe in the Biblical teaching that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are two seperate entities (until they are "corrected")?  I always get a chuckle out of this phenomenon, because this one belief is what officially gets Mormons kicked out of the "Christian" club.  So, if the same standard were applied to everyone, many if not most "Christians" privately don't qualify as "Christians."

Mormons pray to God the Father, in the name of His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ.  (John chapters 14 and 16)

Having grown up a Protestant (Methodist), with much exposure to other denominations, and having spent the last 30 years as a Mormon, I'd say that Mormons are arguably the most Christian of all Christian sects.


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## Glock Master (Dec 8, 2008)

*Christ is God*

He said so himself...............Mark 14:61-64................John 8:58-59............10:30-33


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## gtparts (Dec 8, 2008)

hawglips said:


> gt,
> 
> You sound like you consider yourself to be quite the expert on Mormons and their beliefs.   And your language is rife with deliciously condescending academic-ish goobledy-gook.
> 
> ...



Not an expert on the LDS church. I rather suspect the only real experts would be those in good standing and holding significant ranking in the organizational structure. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'm really not interested in debating this here or anywhere else, as I see no point in wasting hours and days bringing up all the discrepancies that riddle the LDS church history. It's not quite the doctrine of the day, but quite a few beliefs once held by the early LDS church have been modified or discarded over the years, mostly under the explanation of new revelation. Simply put, reinterpretation is not the hallmark of the way God works. Doctrinal reversals is not characteristic of divine inspiration.

As for #2, why to you not find the Bible authoritative? The LDS website says it is Holy Scripture.

If you find the Bible to be unacceptable for #2, how about for #3? That's where you will find what it takes to rightfully claim the name of Christian.


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## crackerdave (Dec 8, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Another can of worms RJ. A search would have been better first on this topic. But, I guess it is a condensation of several off-topic remarks in other threads.
> 
> Since the can is now open again, let's keep it civil. Cans of worms can be closed.



A large "AMEN" to that! Next comes "Are Catholics Christians?"


I like worms.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't know a lot about their beliefs.  I don't know if they adhere to the teachings of the New Testament or if they fall into the same category as many other Christians, but I do know that a Christian is a disciple of Christ.  Don't matter what the name of the church club is, you got to be a disciple.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 9, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> I like worms.


 

You worminizer !!


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## dawg2 (Dec 9, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> A large "AMEN" to that! Next comes "Are Catholics Christians?"
> 
> 
> I like worms.



I think that can was opened a year ago....cracker


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 9, 2008)

Doyle said:


> While I choose not to agree with Mormon beliefs I do know that only an extremely arrogant member of the RRR (Radical Religious Right) would stoop to calling Mormons non-Christian.



Doyle,
Thanks for that comment!


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## hawglips (Dec 9, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Not an expert on the LDS church. I rather suspect the only real experts would be those in good standing and holding significant ranking in the organizational structure. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.







gtparts said:


> I'm really not interested in debating this here or anywhere else, as I see no point in wasting hours and days bringing up all the discrepancies that riddle the LDS church history. It's not quite the doctrine of the day, but quite a few beliefs once held by the early LDS church have been modified or discarded over the years, mostly under the explanation of new revelation. Simply put, reinterpretation is not the hallmark of the way God works. Doctrinal reversals is not characteristic of divine inspiration.
> 
> As for #2, why to you not find the Bible authoritative? The LDS website says it is Holy Scripture.



I consider it as such.

But you are right. Reinterpretation is not the way God works.  That's why I don't believe in the Nicean reinterpretations of God and His revealed word. 



gtparts said:


> If you find the Bible to be unacceptable for #2, how about for #3? That's where you will find what it takes to rightfully claim the name of Christian.



I don't find the Bible unacceptable for #2.  But I assume I'd find your favored interpretation of parts of it (eg, Nicean) to be unacceptable for #2.


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## hawglips (Dec 9, 2008)

Ronnie T said:


> ...but I do know that a Christian is a disciple of Christ.  Don't matter what the name of the church club is, you got to be a disciple.



Ronnie is wise.

And based on my personal observations and experience, I'd wager you won't find a higher ratio of disciples of Christ to members in any other church.


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## gtparts (Dec 9, 2008)

hawglips said:


> I consider it as such.
> 
> But you are right. Reinterpretation is not the way God works.  That's why I don't believe in the Nicean reinterpretations of God and His revealed word.




Is it wrong for the Nicean Council to reinterpret and at the same time right for the LDS to promote doctrine and later "backpedal", down-play, or eliminate that same doctrine?


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## hawglips (Dec 9, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Is it wrong for the Nicean Council to reinterpret and at the same time right for the LDS to promote doctrine and later "backpedal", down-play, or eliminate that same doctrine?



Lots of teachings or commandments have changed throughout history.  We are no longer commanded to build or get on the ark.  We don't stone rebellious sons these days.  We don't sacrifice unblemished lambs anymore, or carry a tabernacle around.  We could come up with a long list.  

Teachings and commandments can and do change as circumstances and times change.  Always have, always will.  But basic doctrines do not.

On the other hand, the Nicene Council took it upon themselves, with no authority from God whatsoever, to just sort of make things up, for purposes of political and religious compromise and capitulation.  So, naturally, I reject the notion that any interpretations or standards established by that council have any authority from God.

God's way of establishing his teachings and doctrines among the children of men has always been via quite a different method.  (Amos 3:7)


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## crackerdave (Dec 9, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I think that can was opened a year ago....cracker



Never,ever mix fire-ants,worms,and crackers  -  Peckerwood!


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## crackerdave (Dec 9, 2008)

StriperAddict said:


> You worminizer !!



I mos' 'specially am partial to them purple worms!


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## MItransplant (Dec 9, 2008)

woodsman69 said:


> no they aren't and no they didn't.



ditto!


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## hawglips (Dec 10, 2008)

Woodsman69 said:


> No they aren't and no they didn't.



It depends on your definition of Christian.

If your definition of "Christian" means one who adheres to the Nicene Council's made-up compromises and capitulations, then no, Mormons don't qualify as Christians.

But if you definition means one who believes in Christ as the Creator, our Redeemer, our Savior, the great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Only Begotten of God the Father, the Word, the Way, and the only means of salvation;  if it means someone who frequently and fervently prays to Heavenly Father in the name of His Only Begotten; if it means someone who seeks to know God's will through diligent study of His word; if it means someone who seeks to be a true disciple and follower of Christ, who loves Him and seeks to obey all his commandments and teachings -- not just cherry-picking the convenient ones; then yes, Mormons could be argued to be the most Christian people on earth.


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## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Lots of teachings or commandments have changed throughout history.  We are no longer commanded to build or get on the ark.  We don't stone rebellious sons these days.  We don't sacrifice unblemished lambs anymore, or carry a tabernacle around.  We could come up with a long list.
> 
> _Teachings and commandments can and do change as circumstances and times change.  Always have, always will.  But basic doctrines do not._
> 
> ...



Time to re-evaluate the validity of anti homo laws yet?  How about adultery.  Seems like an archaic notion to me.


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## gtparts (Dec 10, 2008)

hawglips said:


> It depends on your definition of Christian.
> 
> If your definition of "Christian" means one who adheres to the Nicene Council's made-up compromises and capitulations, then no, Mormons don't qualify as Christians.



Do you have verifiable documents that pre-date the Nicene Council's  "made-up compromises and capitulations" you make reference to, showing what specifically has been left out, changed, or otherwise corrupted?


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## gtparts (Dec 10, 2008)

> Originally Posted by hawglips  View Post
> Lots of teachings or commandments have changed throughout history. We are no longer commanded to build or get on the ark. We don't stone rebellious sons these days. We don't sacrifice unblemished lambs anymore, or carry a tabernacle around. We could come up with a long list.
> 
> Teachings and commandments can and do change as circumstances and times change. Always have, always will. But basic doctrines do not.
> ...







ambush80 said:


> Time to re-evaluate the validity of anti homo laws yet?  How about adultery.  Seems like an archaic notion to me.



How convenient. This sounds like what happened at the Nicean Council? Or does it only apply to LDS matters?


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## hawglips (Dec 11, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> Time to re-evaluate the validity of anti homo laws yet?  How about adultery.  Seems like an archaic notion to me.



Actually, Mormons took all the heat out in CA for getting the anti-homo marriage amendment put into the Constitution.  The gays claim Mormons gave 70% of the money raised to get the proposition passed.  I am not aware about any change in anti-homo laws.

But I think you are right about adultery.  Christ pointed out that the law regarding adultery was archaic.  He said the new standard was that even looking upon a woman to lust after her is committing adultery in one's heart.  That's a good example that we can add onto the list.  Thanks.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 11, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Do you have verifiable documents that pre-date the Nicene Council's  "made-up compromises and capitulations" you make reference to, showing what specifically has been left out, changed, or otherwise corrupted?



The council itself was made up for political purposes, and the entire process was a series of compromises and capitulations.  

Show me any commandment of other teachings in the scriptures that were decided on through debate in a council of religious and political leaders, and not by revelation from God through a prophet of God.  

God does it the way he has always done it.  (Amos 3:7)


----------



## christianhunter (Dec 11, 2008)

J.Smith saw GOD The FATHER,and GOD The SON,standing together.The angel mormon,and his son Moroni,giving Smith the two "golden plates".Those reaching terrestial status,while others reach only celestial status.Each person having numerous children,the more children you have the more sub-universes,you are over.mormons are a cult,they do not believe in the GOD of Abraham,Issac,and Jacob.They do not believe in The Divine Diety,of our LORD JESUS CHRIST,as far as FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT as ONE.They believe you reach "perfection",and become god of your own universe,and your children when they become gods,are over their own universes,and you are over them also,then what of your wives,are they goddesses?
explain the reasoning,of the black man,being an inferior race,the issue of your wife,where is she in your spectrum?
Explain Smiths claim of seeing GOD THE FATHER,and GOD THE SON.
Explain the theories of being gods of your own universes,again I say mormons are a Cult,and are not Christians.The LORD made it clear,"If anyone angel,man,anyone(please except my paraphrase) bring you another gospel,do not let him enter your house or wish him GODSPEED."The book of mormon is another gospel,and does not read side by side,with THE TRUE WORD OF GOD,The BIBLE.


----------



## farmera1 (Dec 11, 2008)

I have a comment to all beef and an answer for rjcruiser, it clearly says in the bible, the trinity: the father the son and the holy spirit, so yes Christ is the son of God but he is also the same, it is hard to grasp but it is cleary stated  “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, (John refers to Jesus as the Word — the LOGOS; John 1:1) and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one” (1 John 5:7).

I know it is hard to grasp but the scripture is clear.


----------



## farmera1 (Dec 11, 2008)

Another comment to your question of are mormans Christians.  If you ask a morman, they will tell you yes, if you ask a baptist methodist, or any other denomination they will tell you no, I have a boss that is morman and I have went to utah on a mission trip to witness to mormans... I assure you that mormans DO NOT beleive in the same things we do, first of all they think of the Bible not as  THE word but A word. they do not beleive Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, in fact they do not beleive in salvation, their goal in life is to do as many good deeds so they can have a higher spot in the after life were they think they have their own "Earth", which we know can't be done because we after death here on earth worship God for the rest of eternity, and the only way to heaven is through christ, " I am Christ, no man comes to the father except through me" so in my opinion, no the morman faith cannot call themselves Christians.


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 11, 2008)

farmera1 said:


> I have a comment to all beef and an answer for rjcruiser, it clearly says in the bible, the trinity: the father the son and the holy spirit, so yes Christ is the son of God but he is also the same, it is hard to grasp but it is cleary stated  “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, (John refers to Jesus as the Word — the LOGOS; John 1:1) and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one” (1 John 5:7).
> 
> I know it is hard to grasp but the scripture is clear.





What about when Jesus was on the cross - who was he talking to when he said: 

MARK15
34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Surly you don't think he wasn't talking to himself?


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 11, 2008)

- farmera1

Who is your boss? Is it John Ruberson?

Thanks
Mike


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 11, 2008)

farmera1 said:


> Another comment to your question of are mormans Christians.  If you ask a morman, they will tell you yes, if you ask a baptist methodist, or any other denomination they will tell you no, I have a boss that is morman and I have went to utah on a mission trip to witness to mormans... I assure you that mormans DO NOT beleive in the same things we do, first of all they think of the Bible not as  THE word but A word. they do not beleive Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, in fact they do not beleive in salvation, their goal in life is to do as many good deeds so they can have a higher spot in the after life were they think they have their own "Earth", which we know can't be done because we after death here on earth worship God for the rest of eternity, and the only way to heaven is through christ, " I am Christ, no man comes to the father except through me" so in my opinion, no the morman faith cannot call themselves Christians.



You got a lot of partial truths here.

Your sort of right about the Bible - we believe the Bible and Book of Mormon to BOTH be the word of God. We don't hold one any higher than the other - we just believe that the Bible has been translated more times than the Book of Mormon, therefore the Bible has some human errors from translating from one language to another.
Your next statement is COMPLETELY FALSE! LDS do believe the only way to Salvation is thru Jesus Christ! What's wrong with doing as many good deeds as possible - do you believe we will be judged? Whats the point of doing any good if good deeds don't matter? maybe if more of the other religions did the same the world would be a better place.

Also see post #22 by Twoshoes - great post to see what we believe.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 11, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> J.Smith saw GOD The FATHER,and GOD The SON,standing together.



True.



christianhunter said:


> The angel mormon,and his son Moroni,giving Smith the two "golden plates".



Wrong on two out of three counts here.




christianhunter said:


> Those reaching terrestial status,while others reach only celestial status.Each person having numerous children,the more children you have the more sub-universes,you are over.



Hunter, where do you guys come up with this stuff?  

I hope your pastors aren't teaching their flocks such disinformation as this.   (Exodus 20:16)




> mormons are a cult,they do not believe in the GOD of Abraham,Issac,and Jacob.



Mormons do believe in the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.  



> They do not believe in... FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT as ONE.



True.  Mormons do not believe is this "doctrine" established out of political expediency in the Nicene Council.  

Mormons believe they are not one in body, but one in purpose.   (John 17) 



christianhunter said:


> They believe you reach "perfection",and become god of your own universe,and your children when they become gods,are over their own universes,and you are over them also,then what of your wives,are they goddesses?



What does it mean to you to be an heir of God? 
(Gal. 4:7; Rom. 8:17)



christianhunter said:


> explain the reasoning,of the black man,being an inferior race,the issue of your wife,where is she in your spectrum?



Hunter, I have no such reasoning, much less an explanation for such reasoning.



christianhunter said:


> Explain Smiths claim of seeing GOD THE FATHER,and GOD THE SON.



http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1



christianhunter said:


> Explain the theories of being gods of your own universes,again I say mormons are a Cult,and are not Christians.



I say you need a new definition of Christian, and that perhaps you ought to look in the mirror at your own eye before you go around pulling out made-up motes from others' eyes.  



christianhunter said:


> The LORD made it clear,"If anyone angel,man,anyone(please except my paraphrase) bring you another gospel,do not let him enter your house or wish him GODSPEED."The book of mormon is another gospel,and does not read side by side,with THE TRUE WORD OF GOD,The BIBLE.



You obviously know very little, if anything, about the Book of Mormon.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 11, 2008)

As far as the book of Mormon and the Bible...it was explained to me this way.

There is a busy intersection.  A car wreck occurs in the intersection.  Now, people on both sides of the street saw the wreck.  They wrote down what they saw.  Are the two accounts going to match up word for word?  Of course not.  But the general ideas are the same.

Now, the Book of Mormon is just another rendition of the Bible.  Same message...same thoughts...just different renditions.

AllBeef/Hawglips....is that a fair synopsis?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 11, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> As far as the book of Mormon and the Bible...it was explained to me this way.
> 
> There is a busy intersection.  A car wreck occurs in the intersection.  Now, people on both sides of the street saw the wreck.  They wrote down what they saw.  Are the two accounts going to match up word for word?  Of course not.  But the general ideas are the same.
> 
> ...



It's not a rendition of the Bible at all, but a completely different account of revelations and history from a different part of the house of Israel.

But it records many of the same teachings, and gives a second perspective on things.  

That comes in very handy when questions come up on things like "is baptism necessary for salvation."


----------



## ALLBEEF (Dec 11, 2008)

hawglips said:


> It's not a rendition of the Bible at all, but a completely different account of revelations and history from a different part of the house of Israel.
> 
> But it records many of the same teachings, and gives a second perspective on things.
> 
> That comes in very handy when questions come up on things like "is baptism necessary for salvation."


----------



## hawglips (Dec 11, 2008)

farmera1 said:


> they do not beleive Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation, in fact they do not beleive in salvation, their goal in life is to do as many good deeds so they can have a higher spot in the after life were they think they have their own "Earth", which we know can't be done because we after death here on earth worship God for the rest of eternity, and the only way to heaven is through christ, " I am Christ, no man comes to the father except through me" so in my opinion, no the morman faith cannot call themselves Christians.



Farmer, you need to be witnessed to by Mormons so you won't get such basic stuff so fouled up.  

Does anyone really care what Mormons believe?  Or is it just a matter of bearing false witness in order to cast stones at someone?   Does it make one feel better about themselves to do that?

How un-Christian is that sort of behavior?  It's the antithesis of being a Christian, in my book.  

And if that is what you're saying being a Christian means, then I guess we really do have a completely different definition of what being a "Christian" is.


----------



## christianhunter (Dec 11, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> What about when Jesus was on the cross - who was he talking to when he said:
> 
> MARK15
> 34And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
> ...



How about when THE LORD was being Baptized in the river by John The Baptist,THE FATHER spoke from Heaven,THE SON was in the river,and THE HOLY SPIRIT was descending like a Dove.All THREE in a different place,at the same time.All THREE distinctly different,All THREE the same,THEY are ONE GOD!


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 11, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> How about when THE LORD was being Baptized in the river by John The Baptist,THE FATHER spoke from Heaven,THE SON was in the river,and THE HOLY SPIRIT was descending like a Dove.All THREE in a different place,at the same time.All THREE distinctly different,All THREE the same,THEY are ONE GOD!



The Mormon Godhead consists of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Together, these three separate beings work in total harmony and unity of purpose to carry out the gospel.

The Holy Ghost is different from God and Jesus. While God and Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones-like ours, but perfected-the Holy Ghost does not. His spirit has the form of a person, but it isn’t made of flesh and blood. He can be in only one place, but He can work everywhere, and take care of many people at once.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 11, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Farmer, you need to be witnessed to by Mormons so you won't get such basic stuff so fouled up.
> 
> Does anyone really care what Mormons believe?  Or is it just a matter of bearing false witness in order to cast stones at someone?   Does it make one feel better about themselves to do that?
> 
> ...




Hawglips/AllBeef

I guess it is really my fault for starting this thread....and I don't mean it to become a bashing Mormons thread.  I didn't start it to have a stone throwing party.  If it gets too much that way, I'll request the mods to pull the thread.

Two purposes in me posting it.

1) So that I and others might come to a better understanding of the Mormon religion (my second priority)

2) So that those who are Mormon might see the errors in their teachings and beliefs (my first priority).

#2 I guess would come across as pretty offensive if one is not firm in their belief/confident in their beliefs.  I often wonder to myself, how would I feel if someone came to my door and tried to convince me that my faith was hogwash and that I was going to he!! for believing it.  I'd try and convert them and feel sorry for them for being so utterly mistaken.

I hope that we can get atleast one of these purposes fulfilled before the thread gets shut-down/locked and posts deleted.  

Again, for all of us, please don't go about name calling.  But if you have specific issues and differences, please bring them to the table in an adult manner.  I can't tell you how much I've learned about the Catholic religion from the past threads and I think it would be helpful to us all to learn about Mormonism.  After all, it will help us Protestants witness to them when they come to the front door


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## dawg2 (Dec 11, 2008)

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----------



## ALLBEEF (Dec 11, 2008)

RJ - for your second priority - if you are sincere with wanting to understand the LDS religion - I would suggest going to LDS.org - this is the church's official web site.
As for your first priority - there are no errors


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## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> RJ - for your second priority - if you are sincere with wanting to understand the LDS religion - I would suggest going to LDS.org - this is the church's official web site.
> As for your first priority - there are no errors



Well..lets get working on the first priority then   I don't like going to generic websites...just ask Dawg2,  PJason and Big7 how much I like the Catholic websites.

First Nephi 13:26 says that "the great and abominable church...[has] taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away."

My interpretation...correct me if I'm wrong is that the Bible has errors because of the evils in the Church...which appears to match your posts and thoughts given above.

So my question to you is this.  What specific parts fo the gospel and the covenants were taken out of the Bible and when specifically (name the year) were they taken out?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Two purposes in me posting it.
> 
> 1) So that I and others might come to a better understanding of the Mormon religion (my second priority)
> 
> 2) So that those who are Mormon might see the errors in their teachings and beliefs (my first priority).



Cruiser, though I welcome this thread for the chance to correct any portion of the vast body of erroneous ideas about the religion, I think your purposes are ultimately going to be frustrated.  

First of all, it should be obvious to all who are reading this thread that those pointing out the "errors" of supposed teachings and beliefs of the Mormon church are mostly clueless about the religion's teachings and beliefs, but rather have conjured up a strawman Mormon church based on what they have heard or read from disingenuous sources.  And when corrected about a particular teaching or belief, they nonetheless remain firm in their condemnation of Mormonism; preferring to cling to the false witness borne to them by teachers of other religions.  That shows the premises of your intentions to be founded in shifting sands, thereby virtually precluding any real chance at achieving your stated purposes.

How does one close the gap of understanding when there is no desire to understand?  And how does one bring others to see demonstrably non-existent errors?

I grew up in a protestant faith, and have intimate first-hand knowledge and experience on both sides of this.   From that perspective, I'd encourage an honest look at Mormonism, instead of clinging to the distorted notions pushed by detractors who feel threatened by it.  There is nothing to lose by that, but much to gain.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So my question to you is this.  What specific parts fo the gospel and the covenants were taken out of the Bible and when specifically (name the year) were they taken out?



That's an impossible question to answer.  It's like trying to point out exactly what bad things didn't happen to you because you were being blessed by the Lord for paying a full tithing (Malachi 3:10).


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> That's an impossible question to answer.  It's like trying to point out exactly what bad things didn't happen to you because you were being blessed by the Lord for paying a full tithing (Malachi 3:10).



I see...can you atleast give a time frame for when the "great and abominable church" was when the errors occurred?  Did this start in AD 324 when Constantine was the sole ruler of the empire and made the church one with his government?

In the very least, you must believe that the OT was pure in AD 30 based that the scriptures went forth from the Jews to the Gentiles "pure" and "according to the truth which is in God" (I  Nephi 13:25).


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I see...can you atleast give a time frame for when the "great and abominable church" was when the errors occurred?  Did this start in AD 324 when Constantine was the sole ruler of the empire and made the church one with his government?



I don't know the answer.

I would guess it started before that though.  The deaths of the apostles and general persecution started early on.  It will be interesting to find out what that is actually referring to one day.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> I don't know the answer.
> 
> I would guess it started before that though.  The deaths of the apostles and general persecution started early on.  It will be interesting to find out what that is actually referring to one day.



Interesting that you don't know the answer to something that is the basis of the Book of Mormon. 

Can you atleast commit to the fact that based on I Nephi 13:25 that the OT was pure at the time of Christ?


----------



## gtparts (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Cruiser, though I welcome this thread for the chance to correct any portion of the vast body of erroneous ideas about the religion, I think your purposes are ultimately going to be frustrated.
> 
> First of all, it should be obvious to all who are reading this thread that those pointing out the "errors" of supposed teachings and beliefs of the Mormon church are mostly clueless about the religion's teachings and beliefs, but rather have conjured up a strawman Mormon church based on what they have heard or read from disingenuous sources.  And when corrected about a particular teaching or belief, they nonetheless remain firm in their condemnation of Mormonism; preferring to cling to the false witness borne to them by teachers of other religions.  That shows the premises of your intentions to be founded in shifting sands, thereby virtually precluding any real chance at achieving your stated purposes.
> 
> ...




Two points:

There is a cloud of secrecy surrounding many aspects of Mormonism, both theology and practice. It has been evidenced here by the avoidance of some questions altogether and a lack of transparency in some responses. 

As one whose faith is placed in the sufficiency of Christ as revealed in the Holy Bible, the examination of Mormonism may expand my knowledge of what you believe, but as it seeks to add to and also contradict parts of the Bible, it can not be the Truth.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Interesting that you don't know the answer to something that is the basis of the Book of Mormon.
> 
> Can you atleast commit to the fact that based on I Nephi 13:25 that the OT was pure at the time of Christ?



That is not the basis of the Book of Mormon at all.  

Is the Gospel of Matthew the basis for the Gospel of John?  Not at all.   Neither is anything in or concerning the Bible the basis for the Book of Mormon.  It's unrelated.  It's just a different record of revelations and prophecies and history of a different branch of the house of Israel.  And it supports and cements the gospel of Christ.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> That is not the basis of the Book of Mormon at all.
> 
> Is the Gospel of Matthew the basis for the Gospel of John? Not at all. Neither is anything in or concerning the Bible the basis for the Book of Mormon. It's unrelated. It's just a different record of revelations and prophecies and history of a different branch of the house of Israel. And it supports and cements the gospel of Christ.


 

Does the gospel of Christ, need anything to support or cement it?

DB BB


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Two points:
> 
> There is a cloud of secrecy surrounding many aspects of Mormonism, both theology and practice. It has been evidenced here by the avoidance of some questions altogether and a lack of transparency in some responses.



What question has been avoided?

If someone asks a question in an attempt to bash, and then I respond with a question designed to demonstrate the insincerity of the guy's question, and to plow the ground a bit to get it ready for the seed, then that question has been answered.  It's up to the other guy whether he wants to get real and ditch his insincerity or not.



gtparts said:


> As one whose faith is placed in the sufficiency of Christ as revealed in the Holy Bible, the examination of Mormonism may expand my knowledge of what you believe, but as it seeks to add to and also contradict parts of the Bible, it can not be the Truth.



Why do you believe nothing can be added to the Bible?  Think on this for a minute before you answer.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Does the gospel of Christ, need anything to support or cement it?
> 
> DB BB



If not, then why do we have four Gospels in the NT, instead of just one?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> If not, then why do we have four Gospels in the NT, instead of just one?


 
They are all the Gospel of Christ, they just happen to be written by 4 different disciples... They all tell pretty much the same story...

Are you saying the Gospel of Christ is incomplete?

DB BB


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> That is not the basis of the Book of Mormon at all.
> 
> Is the Gospel of Matthew the basis for the Gospel of John?  Not at all.   Neither is anything in or concerning the Bible the basis for the Book of Mormon.  It's unrelated.  It's just a different record of revelations and prophecies and history of a different branch of the house of Israel.  And it supports and cements the gospel of Christ.





Double Barrel BB said:


> Does the gospel of Christ, need anything to support or cement it?
> 
> DB BB





hawglips said:


> If not, then why do we have four Gospels in the NT, instead of just one?




DB BB asked the question appropriately and from your response, it shows the validity of my initial statement.  The reason that Mormon leaders (specifically J Smith and Brigham Young) thought the need for the Book of Mormon was that the Bible was not translated correctly.  However, as stated in the Pearl of Great Price, the 8th article states that "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly..."(Articles of Faith, verse 8).

So the issue that I have with the Mormon faith and the reason why I'm asking you when the Bible that we currently have became corrupt is that during the time of Joseph Smith, the ancient manuscripts were limited; and the thought/belief that manuscripts were flawed was a somewhat believable premise.  However, since the findings of the dead sea scrolls and other docs that are dated between 100AD and 200AD, it shows that those docs in the original languages agree 99.9% (taking out spelling errors) per Greek scholar A.T. Robertson.  

As such, these archeological findings have destroyed the basis of the Mormon writings...the basis that the Bible has errors and has changed over the centuries.


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> DB BB asked the question appropriately and from your response, it shows the validity of my initial statement.  The reason that Mormon leaders (specifically J Smith and Brigham Young) thought the need for the Book of Mormon was that the Bible was not translated correctly.  However, as stated in the Pearl of Great Price, the 8th article states that "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly..."(Articles of Faith, verse 8).
> 
> So the issue that I have with the Mormon faith and the reason why I'm asking you when the Bible that we currently have became corrupt is that during the time of Joseph Smith, the ancient manuscripts were limited; and the thought/belief that manuscripts were flawed was a somewhat believable premise.  However, since the findings of the dead sea scrolls and other docs that are dated between 100AD and 200AD, it shows that those docs in the original languages agree 99.9% (taking out spelling errors) per Greek scholar A.T. Robertson.
> 
> As such, these archeological findings have destroyed the basis of the Mormon writings...the basis that the Bible has errors and has changed over the centuries.



How did those findings support the Deutercanonical Books of the Bible?


Could I say this:



rjcruiser said:


> So the issue that I have with the Protestant faith and the reason why I'm asking you when the Bible that we currently have became corrupt is that during the time of King James, the ancient manuscripts were limited; and the thought/belief that manuscripts were flawed was a somewhat believable premise.  However, since the findings of the dead sea scrolls and other docs that are dated between 100AD and 200AD, it shows that those docs in the original languages agree 99.9% (taking out spelling errors) per Greek scholar A.T. Robertson.
> 
> As such, these archeological findings have destroyed the basis of the Protestant writings...the basis that the Bible has errors and has changed over the centuries.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> DB BB asked the question appropriately and from your response, it shows the validity of my initial statement.



Cruiser, why accept 4 different gospels?  

Answer that question, and you have the answer to DB's question.



rjcruiser said:


> The reason that Mormon leaders (specifically J Smith and Brigham Young) thought the need for the Book of Mormon was that the Bible was not translated correctly.



You are barking up the wrong tree, in the wrong forest no less.  

I'll say it again.   There is no cause or effect relationship of any kind between any translation errors or removed parts or whatever, and the advent of the Book of Mormon.  

None.  Nada.  

(And Brigham Young never even heard about the Book of Mormon to well after it was translated and printed.)



rjcruiser said:


> However, as stated in the Pearl of Great Price, the 8th article states that "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly..."(Articles of Faith, verse 8).



Correct.




rjcruiser said:


> So the issue that I have with the Mormon faith and the reason why I'm asking you when the Bible that we currently have became corrupt is that during the time of Joseph Smith, the ancient manuscripts were limited; and the thought/belief that manuscripts were flawed was a somewhat believable premise.  However, since the findings of the dead sea scrolls and other docs that are dated between 100AD and 200AD, it shows that those docs in the original languages agree 99.9% (taking out spelling errors) per Greek scholar A.T. Robertson.
> 
> As such, these archeological findings have destroyed the basis of the Mormon writings...the basis that the Bible has errors and has changed over the centuries.



Once again, the premise for the issue is fatally flawed.  Hey, that means you have no issue with the Mormon faith!

There is no such basis for the Book of Mormon.  It is wholly seperate, unrelated to, and has no cause or effect relationship with the Bible - regardless of any alledged translation errors or removed parts.

Like the gospels of John and Mark, the gospel of Luke was not created to make up for or to correct anything written in the gospel of Matthew.  They are four seperate and distinct testaments of Jesus Christ, written by different people, and one has no cause or effect relationship to the others.  

Do you refuse to read Luke because Matthew came first?  I hope not.

And the same holds true for the Book of Mormon and the Bible.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Cruiser, why accept 4 different gospels?
> 
> Answer that question, and you have the answer to DB's question.
> 
> ...



What I'm driving at is that the Bible and the book of Mormon have many differences.  You say (and the book of Mormon says) that the reason for those differences is due to translation errors and evils in the church.  However, based on the manuscripts that have been found within the last decade, it has been proven that the Bible has not changed.  The OT has not changed since before the time of Christ....and the NT has not changed since 100-200AD.  

So why are there differences (huge doctrinal differences) between the Bible and the book of Mormon?


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> How did those findings support the Deutercanonical Books of the Bible?
> 
> 
> Could I say this:



Not sure...haven't studied that part of it, but I'd initially put that it supports the fact that they don't belong 

but regardless...quit changing words in my posts and showing them as quotes from me  and quit hijacking this thread.

Start your own about the apocra...er I mean deuterocanonical books.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

Double Barrel BB said:


> They are all the Gospel of Christ, they just happen to be written by 4 different disciples... They all tell pretty much the same story...
> 
> Are you saying the Gospel of Christ is incomplete?
> 
> DB BB



Was Matthew incomplete?  Luke added things that Matthew didn't have.  Is that wrong?  Is Luke disqualified as a testimony and record of Christ because it includes different things than Matthew?

Of course not.

And the Book of Mormon is likewise the gospel of Christ, though it is a testament and record written by different disciples than we find in the Bible.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Was Matthew incomplete?  Luke added things that Matthew didn't have.  Is that wrong?  Is Luke disqualified as a testimony and record of Christ because it includes different things than Matthew?
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> And the Book of Mormon is likewise the gospel of Christ, though it is a testament and record written by different disciples than we find in the Bible.



No...they are nothing alike.  There is nothing doctrinally different between the 4 gospels.

However, there are huge doctrinal differences between the Bible and the book of Mormon.  Again, J Smith explained away these differences to errors in the Bible from evils in the early church and translation errors.  But archeological findings of ancient manuscripts have proven the fact that the Bible has not changed....debunking J Smith's explanation.  So again, how do you explain away the doctrinal differences between the Bible and the book of Mormon?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> What I'm driving at is that the Bible and the book of Mormon have many differences.



Matthew and Luke have many differences. 



> You say (and the book of Mormon says) that the reason for those differences is due to translation errors and evils in the church.  However, based on the manuscripts that have been found within the last decade, it has been proven that the Bible has not changed.  The OT has not changed since before the time of Christ....and the NT has not changed since 100-200AD.
> 
> So why are there differences (huge doctrinal differences) between the Bible and the book of Mormon?



I am aware of no doctrinal difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.

I'm beginning to suspect you have never read the Book of Mormon outside the context of looking to bash Mormonism.

There are huge differences between Luke and Matthew.  But I don't see any doctrinal differences between the two.  Because we have both of them, as well as Mark and John, we are better off and we get a fuller picture.

Same thing with the BoM and the Bible.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> No...they are nothing alike.  There is nothing doctrinally different between the 4 gospels.
> 
> However, there are huge doctrinal differences between the Bible and the book of Mormon.  Again, J Smith explained away these differences to errors in the Bible from evils in the early church and translation errors.  But archeological findings of ancient manuscripts have proven the fact that the Bible has not changed....debunking J Smith's explanation.  So again, how do you explain away the doctrinal differences between the Bible and the book of Mormon?



I cannot explain away something that already does not exist. 

If you want to point one out, then I'll explain it.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 12, 2008)

hawglips said:


> I cannot explain away something that already does not exist.



I'm confused.  You mention the fact that there are errors between the original text and the Bible we have today.  Yet we have manuscripts that date back to before the time of Christ that agree with the Bible today.  In other words...the Bible we have today is error free.  How do you reconcile that?



			
				hawglips said:
			
		

> If you want to point one out, then I'll explain it.



Was Jesus born of a Virgin? or was Jesus born of the Father and He (God the Father) was the literal parent of Jesus in the Flesh?  Was Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost?


----------



## Banjo (Dec 12, 2008)

> I am aware of no doctrinal difference between the Bible and the Book of Mormon.



I think Jesus and Lucifer being "spirit" brothers may fit in here...

Isn't there also something about achieving your own planet?  I may be off on this...but definitely know that I haven't read that in the Bible.


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 12, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure...haven't studied that part of it, but I'd initially put that it supports the fact that they don't belong
> 
> but regardless...quit changing words in my posts and showing them as quotes from me  and quit hijacking this thread.
> 
> Start your own about the apocra...er I mean deuterocanonical books.



Better read up

As for the other stuff: NO


----------



## ToLog (Dec 12, 2008)

it's so difficult to follow all of the traditions and theologies back past Noah.

i mean, Adam (Adama) among other translations, is the first Human to set foot on Earth.

i've posted previously, and yet again, why can we place more emphasis on the Adama compared to his later descendants?? 

my thinking, as weak as it is, is because we don't have much written history back in the early days. we "depend" upon the written history, over and over again.

few writers, but they were important. lots of oral historians, but that fact don't account for so much. so, we're left with the written word, the spoken word is adrift in space.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 13, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I'm confused.  You mention the fact that there are errors between the original text and the Bible we have today.  Yet we have manuscripts that date back to before the time of Christ that agree with the Bible today.  In other words...the Bible we have today is error free.  How do you reconcile that?



I don't believe I mentioned that, other than to confirm what you had said about it.  Regardless of any translation errors, the Book of Mormon has no doctrinal differences with the Bible today.  I'll be glad to explain any differences in doctrine if you can point one out.

If you can't point any out, then you must concede that there are no doctrinal differences between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.



> Was Jesus born of a Virgin? or was Jesus born of the Father and He (God the Father) was the literal parent of Jesus in the Flesh?  Was Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost?



Here's the record from a Book of Mormon prophet (about 600 BC) recording what he was shown regarding the future birth of Christ.

_I Nephi 11
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white. 
  14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou? 
  15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins. 
  16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God? 
  17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things. 
  18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh. 
  19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look! 
  20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. 
  21 And the angel said unto me: Behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Son of the Eternal Father!_

Do you see any doctrinal differences there?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 13, 2008)

Banjo said:


> I think Jesus and Lucifer being "spirit" brothers may fit in here...
> 
> Isn't there also something about achieving your own planet?  I may be off on this...but definitely know that I haven't read that in the Bible.



I am not aware of anything in the BoM saying Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers.

There is also nothing in the BoM about anyone achieving their own planet.


----------



## christianhunter (Dec 13, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> The Mormon Godhead consists of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Together, these three separate beings work in total harmony and unity of purpose to carry out the gospel.
> 
> The Holy Ghost is different from God and Jesus. While God and Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones-like ours, but perfected-the Holy Ghost does not. His spirit has the form of a person, but it isn’t made of flesh and blood. He can be in only one place, but He can work everywhere, and take care of many people at once.



THE LORD JESUS said,THE FATHER is Spirit,"If you've seen me you have seen THE FATHER.They are ONE"."Let Us create man in OUR Image".GOD-FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT.Man-Body,Soul,Spirit.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 13, 2008)

Now I'm not a mormon and I don't know much about mormon beliefs but I ask this:

If a person believes in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and at the same time believes the Bk of Morm to be inspired(and in fact it's not, hypothetically). Is it possible that Jesus would accept them anyway?


----------



## christianhunter (Dec 13, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> The Mormon Godhead consists of God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. Together, these three separate beings work in total harmony and unity of purpose to carry out the gospel.
> 
> The Holy Ghost is different from God and Jesus. While God and Jesus Christ have a body of flesh and bones-like ours, but perfected-the Holy Ghost does not. His spirit has the form of a person, but it isn’t made of flesh and blood. He can be in only one place, but He can work everywhere, and take care of many people at once.



THE LORD JESUS said,THE FATHER is Spirit,"If you've seen me you have seen THE FATHER.They are ONE"."Let Us create man in OUR Image".GOD-FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT.Man-Body,Soul,Spirit.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 15, 2008)

christianhunter said:


> THE LORD JESUS said,THE FATHER is Spirit,"If you've seen me you have seen THE FATHER.They are ONE"."Let Us create man in OUR Image".GOD-FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT.Man-Body,Soul,Spirit.



The Lord Jesus said for us to "be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us."  So, you and I are one in body?


And don't you believe that Jesus Christ was resurrected?  His disciples witnessed him ascending into heaven to sit at the right hand of God.  

And who was Jesus praying to all those times?

And whose voice was that at Jesus' baptism declaring that Jesus was his beloved Son in whom he was well pleased?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> So the issue that I have with the Mormon faith and the reason why I'm asking you when the Bible that we currently have became corrupt is that during the time of Joseph Smith, the ancient manuscripts were limited; and the thought/belief that manuscripts were flawed was a somewhat believable premise.



This brings up a question that I would like to ask you.

Isn't it blasphemous for a man to take it upon himself to claim that the Bible (or any other book of scripture) contains "all" of God's word?  It seems the epitome of blashpeme for men to take it upon themselves to limit what God and his dealings with the children of men to a small book or even a few books.

And how a reader of the Bible could say this is beyond me.  It's very clear that the Bible does not include all of God's revelations and prophecies given to the Judean prophets and Jesus' apostles.  In the Bible itself, we have reference to many other books of scripture not included in the Bible we have today.  What happened to the books of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13; 2 Sam. 1: 18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29; 2 Chr. 9: 29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29; 2 Chr. 12: 15; 2 Chr. 13: 22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33: 19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3: 3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4: 16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1: 14); the book of the covenant (Ex. 24: 7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10: 25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26: 22); the prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (Matt. 2: 23)?


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Was Jesus born of a Virgin? or was Jesus born of the Father and He (God the Father) was the literal parent of Jesus in the Flesh?  Was Christ begotten by the Holy Ghost?





hawglips said:


> Here's the record from a Book of Mormon prophet (about 600 BC) recording what he was shown regarding the future birth of Christ.
> 
> _I Nephi 11
> 13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
> ...



Yes I do....maybe not on the surface, but reading up on Mormon Doctrine, you find that Mormon's believe that "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 546-7).  McConkie also says that Christ "was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father.  There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,...Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man"(McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 742).

In 1852, Brigham Young said "Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost (Brigham Young, Jornal of Discourses, 1:51)

Joseph Smith said, "They tell us the Book of Mormon states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost.  I challenge that statement.  The Book of Mormon teaches no such thing!  Neither does the Bible" (Joseph Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 1:19)


These quotes/beliefs are in direct opposition to the Bible.  Both Matthew and Luke clearly state that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" (Mat 1:18,20; Luke 1:35) not by the Father.  The clear teaching of the Bible is that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth (Mat 1:23).  The normal meaning of virgin does not allow for God the Father to have in any way impregnated Mary.


Hawglips...you don't really answer my questions.  I understand, they are meant to show the differences between Mormonism and the Bible, but please...answer them.  If you don't know...just put...I don't know.  If you do know and keep just quoting book of Mormon or other Mormon scriptures, it furthers the notion that their is a shroud of secrecy around what you truly believe and are trying to make something what it is not.  I will attempt to honestly answer any questions you have for me about my faith as well.


Okay...Dawg, I guess Mormon's and Catholics are pretty opposite as well since the Virgin Mary is something so important to Catholics


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 15, 2008)

hawglips said:


> This brings up a question that I would like to ask you.
> 
> Isn't it blasphemous for a man to take it upon himself to claim that the Bible (or any other book of scripture) contains "all" of God's word?  It seems the epitome of blashpeme for men to take it upon themselves to limit what God and his dealings with the children of men to a small book or even a few books.
> 
> And how a reader of the Bible could say this is beyond me.  It's very clear that the Bible does not include all of God's revelations and prophecies given to the Judean prophets and Jesus' apostles.  In the Bible itself, we have reference to many other books of scripture not included in the Bible we have today.  What happened to the books of the Wars of the Lord (Num. 21: 14); book of Jasher (Josh. 10: 13; 2 Sam. 1: 18); book of the acts of Solomon (1 Kgs. 11: 41); book of Samuel the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Gad the seer (1 Chr. 29: 29); book of Nathan the prophet (1 Chr. 29: 29; 2 Chr. 9: 29); prophecy of Ahijah (2 Chr. 9: 29); visions of Iddo the seer (2 Chr. 9: 29; 2 Chr. 12: 15; 2 Chr. 13: 22); book of Shemaiah (2 Chr. 12: 15); book of Jehu (2 Chr. 20: 34); sayings of the seers (2 Chr. 33: 19); an epistle of Paul to the Corinthians, earlier than our present 1 Corinthians (1 Cor. 5: 9); possibly an earlier epistle to the Ephesians (Eph. 3: 3); an epistle to the Church at Laodicea (Col. 4: 16); and some prophecies of Enoch, known to Jude (Jude 1: 14); the book of the covenant (Ex. 24: 7), which may or may not be included in the current book of Exodus; the manner of the kingdom, written by Samuel (1 Sam. 10: 25); the rest of the acts of Uzziah written by Isaiah (2 Chr. 26: 22); the prophecy that Jesus would be a Nazarene (Matt. 2: 23)?





Ahh...I was wondering when you'd bring this up.  Nope...I'm not limiting God in any way....just ask some of my fellow Protestants on this board about my views on election.  Nope...the God I worship is a sovereign God who can do what He pleases.

But, please, just because a book is cited in the Bible doesn't mean that it should be part of the Bible.  That is a ridiculous argument.  If that was the case, one could never make mention of any other literary work, or it would have to be included in the quoting book.  Surely the apostles/disciples wrote other letters to people that were not inspired.  But I'll play along with the argument.

If those other books mentioned were part of the divine inspiration and were to be included in the Bible, why didn't Joseph Smith restore them "under divine inspiration" when he corrected the King James Version of the Bible?

It is amazing how, as time moves on and archeological finds come to fruition, the Bible becomes more and more validated.  Like mentioned above, the textual accuracy is amazine from what is in the text as we have it today and what was written thousands of years ago.  The problem for Mormons is that Joseph Smith based his religion upon the errors and mistranslations of the Bible.  As these errors and mistranslations are proven to be non-existent, the religion of Mormonism is proven to be full of errors itself.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes I do....maybe not on the surface, but reading up on Mormon Doctrine, you find that Mormon's believe that "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" McConkie also says that Christ "was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real and literal sense that any son is born to a mortal father.  There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events,...Christ is the Son of Man, meaning that his Father (the Eternal God!) is a Holy Man"(McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 742).
> (Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, 546-7).
> 
> In 1852, Brigham Young said "Now remember from this time forth, and forever, that Jesus Christ was not begotten by the Holy Ghost (Brigham Young, Jornal of Discourses, 1:51)
> ...



Are you sure about that?

And by the way, I noticed none of the quotes came from the Book of Mormon.  I'm still looking for those "huge differences" in doctrine between the Book of Mormon and the Bible that you have insisted were there.

If you have given up on that quest, please state that so the point can be conceded before you move the target elsewhere.



rjcruiser said:


> Both Matthew and Luke clearly state that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" (Mat 1:18,20; Luke 1:35) not by the Father.  The clear teaching of the Bible is that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth (Mat 1:23).  The normal meaning of virgin does not allow for God the Father to have in any way impregnated Mary.



So, you are saying that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were wrong in saying that Jesus was not "begotten" by the Holy Ghost?  It sounds to me like they are saying that the Holy Ghost did not sire Jesus -- that the Holy Ghost was not his Father.  Do you really disagree with that?

How exactly did the Holy Spirit "conceive" Mary?  Was Jesus the Holy Ghost's Only Begotten?  Or the Father's Only Begotten?

You quoted BY and JS saying that the Jesus was not "begotten" by the Holy Ghost?   Are you disagreeing with them?  Are you saying Jesus was "begotten" by the Holy Ghost and not the Father?

What are you saying here?  Please be perfectly clear. 



rjcruiser said:


> Hawglips...you don't really answer my questions.  I understand, they are meant to show the differences between Mormonism and the Bible, but please...answer them.  If you don't know...just put...I don't know.  If you do know and keep just quoting book of Mormon or other Mormon scriptures, it furthers the notion that their is a shroud of secrecy around what you truly believe and are trying to make something what it is not.  I will attempt to honestly answer any questions you have for me about my faith as well.



RJ, what question have you asked me that I have not answered?   And I suppose this means you will eventually get around to answering the questions I have asked you?

When you dig up the typical anti-Mormon talking points that are twisted, distorted, or obscure stuff that isn't taught in the Mormon church; and then pretend that you know that it really is taught and believed, it appears to someone like me who knows better, that you are not interested at all in what Mormons actually believe and teach, but only in joining the disingenuous chorus that feels better about themselves by bashing them.

If you are just interested in bashing, I don't really mind, as long as the question and answer game goes both ways.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Ahh...I was wondering when you'd bring this up.  Nope...I'm not limiting God in any way....just ask some of my fellow Protestants on this board about my views on election.  Nope...the God I worship is a sovereign God who can do what He pleases.



Good.  

Then we agree that men should not pretend that God could have only spoken what was compiled by feeble men in what we call the Bible.



rjcruiser said:


> :But, please, just because a book is cited in the Bible doesn't mean that it should be part of the Bible.  That is a ridiculous argument.  If that was the case, one could never make mention of any other literary work, or it would have to be included in the quoting book.  Surely the apostles/disciples wrote other letters to people that were not inspired.  But I'll play along with the argument.



I am glad you agree with me that apostles probably wrote things that weren't inspired.  So, does this mean you'll forgive McConkie for some of the stuff he wrote?

And who do you suggest is the proper final arbitrar of what should be considered to be God's word?   A man?  Or a group of men?   Which man or men should that be?  The men who compiled the Bible?  

And are you certain they included all of God's word in the Bible?



rjcruiser said:


> If those other books mentioned were part of the divine inspiration and were to be included in the Bible, why didn't Joseph Smith restore them "under divine inspiration" when he corrected the King James Version of the Bible?



The same reason he didn't pull the Book of Mormon out of thin air, but had to translate the plates it was written on, I would guess.

Why didn't Jesus pull the wine out of thin air instead of using water?   

I don't know the answers to those kinds of questions.  Do you?



rjcruiser said:


> It is amazing how, as time moves on and archeological finds come to fruition, the Bible becomes more and more validated.  Like mentioned above, the textual accuracy is amazine from what is in the text as we have it today and what was written thousands of years ago.  The problem for Mormons is that Joseph Smith based his religion upon the errors and mistranslations of the Bible.



RJ, you seem like a very intelligent person.  But you keep getting stuck on this inaccuracy because your fundamental understanding of how it came about is flawed.  I surmise you have spent more time reading dubious sources rather than reading the actual record of it?  (If you'd like me to point you there, I will be glad to.)

Please read up on what Joseph Smith based "his religion" on, (outside of your usual anti-Mormon sources would be better) so you will be able to have a basic understanding of the basis for the Mormon faith. 

Then we can clear this up.  



rjcruiser said:


> As these errors and mistranslations are proven to be non-existent, the religion of Mormonism is proven to be full of errors itself.



So, finding other writings that support a few small pieces of what was written in the Bible, proves that the Bible is the complete totality of God's dealings with his children from Adam till today, and that there were absolutely no errors anywhere in the entire translations; and further, that proves errors in texts unrelated to the Bible?

Surely, you jest?


----------



## gtparts (Dec 16, 2008)

> The same reason he didn't pull the Book of Mormon out of thin air, but had to translate the plates it was written on, I would guess.
> 
> Why didn't Jesus pull the wine out of thin air instead of using water?
> 
> I don't know the answers to those kinds of questions. Do you?



Since you seem to like guessing, are you guessing about the plates? Are you guessing about the veracity of Joseph Smith? Are you guessing about the accuracy of the "translation"? Are you guessing about the lost tribes of Israel populating the New World prior to the appearance of European explorers? Can you produce any evidence that is independent of Joseph Smith and his written works?

This isn't about what some third party has written or thinks. I am interested in what you believe and why.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 16, 2008)

Okay HL, I'll try and simplify.  But the questions you failed to answer were in my post #89 for which you responded with a passage from Nephi and left it up to me to interpret.

I then answered the questions for you based on the writings of Mormon Theologians...McConkie, Smith and Young.  They say that God the Father impregnated Mary like mortal men would.  That Jesus was *Not* begotten by the Holy Spirit.

I've then shown you scripture that points to the fact that the Holy Spirit did beget Jesus and that Mary was a true Virgin.  She was not impregnated by God the Father like a man would impregnate a woman.  

This is a fundamental doctrinal difference between Protestant Christians and Mormons.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 16, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Are you sure about that?
> 
> And by the way, I noticed none of the quotes came from the Book of Mormon.  I'm still looking for those "huge differences" in doctrine between the Book of Mormon and the Bible that you have insisted were there.
> 
> If you have given up on that quest, please state that so the point can be conceded before you move the target elsewhere.


See my above post.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> So, you are saying that Brigham Young and Joseph Smith were wrong in saying that Jesus was not "begotten" by the Holy Ghost?  It sounds to me like they are saying that the Holy Ghost did not sire Jesus -- that the Holy Ghost was not his Father.  Do you really disagree with that?
> 
> How exactly did the Holy Spirit "conceive" Mary?  Was Jesus the Holy Ghost's Only Begotten?  Or the Father's Only Begotten?


You are correct.  The Holy Spirit begot Jesus.  It was BY and JS that said he was not begotten by the Holy Spirit, but that God the Father impregnated Mary like a mortal man.  Read my quotes above a little more carefully.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> When you dig up the typical anti-Mormon talking points that are twisted, distorted, or obscure stuff that isn't taught in the Mormon church; and then pretend that you know that it really is taught and believed, it appears to someone like me who knows better, that you are not interested at all in what Mormons actually believe and teach, but only in joining the disingenuous chorus that feels better about themselves by bashing them.
> 
> If you are just interested in bashing, I don't really mind, as long as the question and answer game goes both ways.



Not interested in bashing.  What have I brought up that isn't taught in the Mormon Church?  I bring up statements and writings by Mormon Theologians.  Is that not taught in the Mormon Church?



hawglips said:


> Good.
> 
> Then we agree that men should not pretend that God could have only spoken what was compiled by feeble men in what we call the Bible.


You are twisting what I said.  I'm not pretending that God only spoke what is compiled by feeble men in the Bible.  I know that the Bible is what God intended it to be.  It is without error and 100% accurate.  I don't limit a perfect God to be able to use a vessel so unfit (mankind) to write down His inspired Word and put it into a single book.  Why do you limit God's power and ability to do that?



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> I am glad you agree with me that apostles probably wrote things that weren't inspired.  So, does this mean you'll forgive McConkie for some of the stuff he wrote?


 Sure, I'll forgive him, but I think he meant what he wrote.  And surely, none of it was inspired.  But other Mormon Theologians agree with McConkie and it isn't just what he thinks, but what others agree with him on.  That is why I quoted more than just one Mormon Theologian.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> And who do you suggest is the proper final arbitrar of what should be considered to be God's word?   A man?  Or a group of men?   Which man or men should that be?  The men who compiled the Bible?


God.  No.  No.  None, it should be God.  God compiled the Bible.  



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> And are you certain they included all of God's word in the Bible?


Yup....I believe in Sola Scriptura.  Search it and you'll see some threads on it and if you have any further questions on it, I'd be more than happy to answer them here. 

Okay...another area that Catholics and Mormons agree on.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> The same reason he didn't pull the Book of Mormon out of thin air, but had to translate the plates it was written on, I would guess.
> 
> Why didn't Jesus pull the wine out of thin air instead of using water?
> 
> I don't know the answers to those kinds of questions.  Do you?


Sure do....it was because God wanted Jesus to do it that way.  



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> RJ, you seem like a very intelligent person.  But you keep getting stuck on this inaccuracy because your fundamental understanding of how it came about is flawed.  I surmise you have spent more time reading dubious sources rather than reading the actual record of it?  (If you'd like me to point you there, I will be glad to.)
> 
> Please read up on what Joseph Smith based "his religion" on, (outside of your usual anti-Mormon sources would be better) so you will be able to have a basic understanding of the basis for the Mormon faith.
> 
> Then we can clear this up.


Sure...please point me in the right direction.  I went to the mormon.org website and it was pretty vague on the beliefs.  That is why I'm asking you.




			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> So, finding other writings that support a few small pieces of what was written in the Bible, proves that the Bible is the complete totality of God's dealings with his children from Adam till today, and that there were absolutely no errors anywhere in the entire translations; and further, that proves errors in texts unrelated to the Bible?
> 
> Surely, you jest?


Nope...not jesting.  Maybe you didn't see it, but I've posted support on here in debate with DixieDawg about the veracity of the OT and the infallibility based on the prophecies told within.

Also, as I noted above, Joseph Smith said that at the time of Christ, the Bible was perfect in its completeness and accuracy.  So, based on the Dead Sea Scrolls, we have was in the Bible in the time of Christ and it agrees to what we have now.  So, how can you argue with these archeological findings?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 16, 2008)

RJ, you inaccurately claimed (multiple times) that the Book of Mormon had "huge doctrinal differences" with the Bible, and cited your question about Mary and the Holy Ghost as an example.

So, I gave you the direct quote from the BoM to answer your question, fully, completely, accurately, and specifically.  

Now, if you want to switch horses in mid-stream, it undermines the point you've been trying to make.

So, let's go one at a time.

If you can't find any doctrinal differences between the BoM and the Bible, let's agree that you overstated your claim, and that their aren't any, and then we can move on to your next front of attack.

Deal?


----------



## hawglips (Dec 16, 2008)

gtparts said:


> Since you seem to like guessing, are you guessing about the plates? Are you guessing about the veracity of Joseph Smith? Are you guessing about the accuracy of the "translation"? Are you guessing about the lost tribes of Israel populating the New World prior to the appearance of European explorers? Can you produce any evidence that is independent of Joseph Smith and his written works?



No.
No.
No.
No. (But it isn't the "lost tribes.")
Evidence of what?  The Book of Mormon?  There were 11 other witnesses attesting to it.  Other than those flesh and blood witnesses, I've receive witnesses by the Holy Ghost as well.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I then answered the questions for you based on the writings of Mormon Theologians...McConkie, Smith and Young.  They say that God the Father impregnated Mary like mortal men would.  That Jesus was *Not* begotten by the Holy Spirit.



You read one quote by McConkie that said Jesus was born of the Father in the natural way.  But, when you were looking for an out on the lost books point, you said not all things apostles write are necessarily inspired.

So, which is it?  Which standard are you holding us to on this point?  I need to know so I'll know whether to give McConkie a pass or not.

And you showed quotes by BY and JS that said Jesus was not "begotten" by the Holy Ghost.  But the Bible doesn't say that he was either.  The Bible tells us what the angel said to Joseph when he was afraid Mary had been fornicating, by saying "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."  And the Book of Mormon says virtually the same thing, in the passages I showed you, as well as in Alma chapter 7.

Do you claim to know exactly how this conception was accomplished? 

If so, please educate me.  

And please, go ahead and be very clear here, since you are taking a hard stance against what other's have said about it.



> I've then shown you scripture that points to the fact that the Holy Spirit did beget Jesus and that Mary was a true Virgin.  She was not impregnated by God the Father like a man would impregnate a woman.



So, did the Holy Ghost impregnate her like a man impregnates a woman?  How was it accomplished?

But let's back up.  The Bible does NOT say that Christ is begotten of the Holy Ghost.  It says that Christ is the Only Begotten of the FATHER, and that he is the Father's beloved Son.  So, if you are going to hold others to one semantic standard, please hold yourself to that same semantic standard as well.

The most detail the Bible gives us is in Luke 1 where it says, "35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." 

So, what exactly happened when the Holy Ghost came upon her, and the power of the Highest "overshadowed" her?  That caused Jesus to be called the "Son of God?"

Do you know the details?  If not, then maybe you ought to change subjects to something you know the details you are bashing others about.

And, are you not going to forgive Mcconkie here?  After all, you don't believe everything apostles wrote should be considered inspired of God.  Right?  



> This is a fundamental doctrinal difference between Protestant Christians and Mormons.



I'd say the differences are not fundamental, but important differences nonetheless.



> I'm not pretending that God only spoke what is compiled by feeble men in the Bible. I know that the Bible is what God intended it to be. It is without error and 100% accurate.



Which version? 

Since they are all so different, this would be good to know.



> I don't limit a perfect God to be able to use a vessel so unfit (mankind) to write down His inspired Word and put it into a single book. Why do you limit God's power and ability to do that?



I am not the one saying placing limits on God's words.  You are the one.

I don't beleive the New Testament covers 1/100th of what Christ did and said.  And anything he did and said would be considered scripture had it been recorded and preserved.

So, when you limit it to the few things recorded by a few disciples, you are indeed limiting a perfect and infinite God to your own imperfect and feeble finite notions.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 16, 2008)

> Sure...please point me in the right direction. I went to the mormon.org website and it was pretty vague on the beliefs. That is why I'm asking you.



Here's the basis for the BoM.
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1


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## twoshoes (Dec 18, 2008)

*Love thy neighbor*

I believe many of these posts have sought to harbor hate and the spirit of contention. I believe our ancestors who fought, bleed, and died for the opportunity to worship as we pleased would be ashamed because of the lack of understanding exhibited by many of these posts. 

You are cowards hiding behind religion daring to toss stones at another’s beliefs. You say you understand the scriptures but then become hypocrites by not practicing Christianity. Saying you believe something while having your actions contradict your words.

Tolerance, patience, long suffering, meekness, love, kindness, respect- these are how we should be treating one another. 

If tomorrow, the world goes to Purgatory in a handbasket like it did on Sept 11th 2001 and Dec 7th- 1941, should it truly matter who believes what when it comes to religion? It shouldn’t and it didn’t then. What mattered was your life, your family and your liberty. 

This country was created for the purpose to live free. It has been nurtured and kept safe by the blood of tyrants and patriots. We live here because we desire to be free: Free from prosecution and to worship and believe as we please, regardless of our differences.

Yet, members of certain faiths outside of the protestant line are being blasted, persecuted, and being told what and how they believe. It is shameful. How dare anyone throw stones at someone whether they are Atheist, Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Protestant, or whatever because of their beliefs.

Religion is not secret, it is sacred. Yet, I see that religion is a chip on your bully shoulder rather than special place in your heart and mind. Stop telling someone what they believe. It is foolish and folly to do so.  

Can’t you see that no one can ever prove anything to anyone? You can only prove something to yourself. That’s it! Stop Bashing!

What happens when the next person comes to knock that chip off your shoulder is the Savior? 

Take this into consideration- 
Suppose he asks you the following questions.

What have you been doing with my name and the scriptures, parables, and teachings that I left with you? 

Have you kept my commandments?

Please answer these questions in how you live and love one another. There is too much hate and all the children in the world deserve better from all of us as adults. 

This is the Christmas season and it is becoming less of a time to remembrance with all the hate mongering that has transpired on this tread. Stop the cycle of hate by respecting and loving your neighbor regardless of their beliefs. 

There can be no peace on earth if we can't even have peace in our homes. What you say on these treads is giving someone a window into your home. From what I have seen and read, I would doubt that the Savior would feel welcome in some of these homes.

Stop the animosity and start respecting one another. It is time for all of us to keep all of the commandments and show it through our words, deeds, and actions. 

Love your neighbor.


----------



## PWalls (Dec 18, 2008)

Let's do keep the thread on the more civil side and less argumentative please. It is good that the debate can be had and Scripture put up and questions answered. But let's keep the "tones" down please. Continue on.


----------



## Free Willie (Dec 18, 2008)

Twoshoes,

I think the problem comes from the fact that when you take something that is good and pure, in this example, the Christian Faith, and pervert it and try to convince believers of this pure faith that your perverted version is legitimate, we get a little up in arms.

No serious student of Christianity could ever research the mormon church and it's founders and not see a problem. And when a mormon tries to associate his beliefs with ours, it's insulting. Joseph Smith was a snake oil salesman who dabbled in the occult, Jewish Kabbalahism, and had a local reputation as a mystic and treasure hunter. His mother and father were both fruit loops as was his brother Hyrum.

I get pretty upset when I see a symbol of my faith such as the fish you see on the backs of cars replaced with a fish with feet and the word "darwin" on it. I get mad when society tries to legitimize gay marriage by pushing an agenda that makes it seem that two men being married is the same as a man and a woman. AND I get angry when a cult tries to closely associate itself with my faith in order to gain legitimacy. 

Close....but no cigar. the LDS church is a cult be definition, not a branch of Christianity.


----------



## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

A quick look at John 1 convinces me that Jesus is the Son of God and IS GOD.  

We can argue all day long and healthy debate is....well....healthy....as long as it's healthy.  

There will be differences in how we interpret the Trinity.  What we should really ask is, "What does saving faith require?"

What must I do to be saved?  Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved--you and your household!  From this point, I must struggle with the Word and with the Spirit to break through my human imperfections that prevent me from fully understanding the rest of it.  Whether, as a result of that struggle, I interpret that wine actually becomes the blood of Christ or is merely a symbol or that infants should be baptized versus adults--it doesn't impact the fact that I am saved because I have saving faith.

I believe in the Trinity.  Latter Day Saints don't.  That's why they could never convince me to convert.  I will say this much though.  We are told to judge a tree by the fruit that it bears and the LDS church bears incredible fruit.


----------



## addictedtodeer (Dec 18, 2008)

As I've read this I am surprised by many of my protestant brothers.
The issue for anyone who claims "Christ" or "Jesus" is what do we mean by those words.

We are to guard ourselves from false doctrines so we are not led astray. 

We are to ask questions. We are to seek understanding, we are not to embrace other "Christs".
The issue with anyone is who is their "Jesus"?

The historical orthodox Christian view is that the Bible states that Christ is the:
Eternal Son of God
One with the Father and the Holy Spirit
Fully God and Fully Man
Fully involved in Creation, Fully involved in salvation and will return to claim His own.

if someone claims that Christ is not eternal how can we be worshiping the same Christ?
If someone claims that Christ is more or less, then they are worshiping a different Christ.

Forget the peripheral doctrines, Christ is what saves alone.


----------



## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

addictedtodear--You are correct.  That's the problem with the Reorganized LDS Church.  They preach an existential subjective discovery of their own theology while using Scripture as a launching point into that existential discovery.  Regardless of what I believe is Truth and what a Mormon believes is truth, there is an objective Truth and it is a rejection of that Truth to believe that I, as a human, can discover "my own Truth".  No such thing exists and Satan has successfully deceived me.

I personally don't believe that Mormons will go to heaven because they do not view Christs sacrifice as sufficient.  It has to be combined with works.  That is not saving faith.

The term "cult" is not a Biblical term.  That's a human term.  What is and is not a cult is of no consequence to me.  Whether doctrine that leads to saving faith is preached is what is important to me.


----------



## gtparts (Dec 18, 2008)

twoshoes said:


> I believe many of these posts have sought to harbor hate and the spirit of contention. I believe our ancestors who fought, bleed, and died for the opportunity to worship as we pleased would be ashamed because of the lack of understanding exhibited by many of these posts.



Well, you are most certainly entitled to those two beliefs. 
I bear no ill will towards any here, you included. The very nature of the question posed, calls for research into the subject matter and consideration of the Mormon faith in comparison to the tenets the Christian faith. Simply put, the Book of Mormon and the other religious works in support thereof bring "additional" information which is not found in the Holy Bible. Having placed my faith in the Bible as the complete, inerrant Word of God, the full, necessary revelation of the Christ unto salvation, I have no need or regard for what to me appears to be a fictional work based on the fertile imagination of a 14 yr. old boy, who, much like some D&D players, has wandered into some religious fantasy and could not distinguish it from reality.

As for "our ancestors who fought, bleed, and died for the opportunity to worship as we pleased", they would support the rights of all to vehemently defend their religious beliefs on this forum as an example of the freedom that they envisioned. 




> You are cowards hiding behind religion daring to toss stones at another’s beliefs. You say you understand the scriptures but then become hypocrites by not practicing Christianity. Saying you believe something while having your actions contradict your words.



Cowards? Now, who is casting stones? To the best of my recollection, no one has stated that they "understand the scriptures" and the accusation of "hypocrites" seems more than a little self-righteous.




> Tolerance, patience, long suffering, meekness, love, kindness, respect- these are how we should be treating one another.



I would agree with " patience, long suffering, meekness, love, (and) kindness" as being "fruits" of the Spirit. Tolerance, however is situational. How much tolerance should we have for rapists, terrorists, and thieves, for example? Our laws are made to delineate between acceptable (but, sometimes unpleasant behavior) and unacceptable (and therefore punishable) behavior. All things are NOT to be tolerated. 

As for respect, it is earned and given as each determines. It is not a certainty; it cannot be demanded or coerced. It is a measure of the regard in which one is held by others. It is neither bought nor sold. Some here have earned it and received it. Some here have lost it based on their words and actions.




> If tomorrow, the world goes to Purgatory in a handbasket like it did on Sept 11th 2001 and Dec 7th- 1941, should it truly matter who believes what when it comes to religion? It shouldn’t and it didn’t then. What mattered was your life, your family and your liberty.



My relationship with God matters when absolutely nothing else does, not life, liberty, nor family! I contend that it did matter then and now. For many, it was all they felt they had left. 




> This country was created for the purpose to live free. It has been nurtured and kept safe by the blood of tyrants and patriots. We live here because we desire to be free: Free from prosecution (sic) and to worship and believe as we please, regardless of our differences.



You have the mistaken idea that "living free" is all for which this country was created? Freedom comes with awesome responsibilities, "living free" doe not. BTW, the blood of tyrants has done nothing to "nurture and keep safe" our country. If anything, it was given to subvert those very things. Now, the blood of patriots most assuredly was a sacrifice paid to nurture and keep our country safe. Most of us live here because our parents lived here, and we stay because it is still the best place on Earth to live, all things considered. 




> Yet, members of certain faiths outside of the protestant line are being blasted, persecuted, and being told what and how they believe. It is shameful. How dare anyone throw stones at someone whether they are Atheist, Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, Protestant, or whatever because of their beliefs.



I, for one, want to know what others believe and why. But, when I inquire, I want the truth of what they believe and transparency rather than deceitful secretiveness. Sometimes the dialogue here has been unnecessarily heated, but the attacks have for the most part been civil, if not charitable. I am reconciled to the fact that many here are intransigent, much as I am, to the "reasoning" and "myth" of others whose religious beliefs conflict with my own. 




> Religion is not secret, it is sacred. Yet, I see that religion is a chip on your bully shoulder rather than special place in your heart and mind. Stop telling someone what they believe. It is foolish and folly to do so.



All religion is sacred to the individual adherent, but all religions can not be true. Most are sincere, some are deceived




> Can’t you see that no one can ever prove anything to anyone? You can only prove something to yourself. That’s it! Stop Bashing!
> 
> What happens when the next person comes to knock that chip off your shoulder is the Savior?
> 
> ...



I think the desire to "prove" is not the issue here. Most of us are just trying to stave off Alzheimers, by keeping our minds nimble and sharp.





> This is the Christmas season and it is becoming less of a time to remembrance with all the hate mongering that has transpired on this tread. Stop the cycle of hate by respecting and loving your neighbor regardless of their beliefs.
> 
> There can be no peace on earth if we can't even have peace in our homes. What you say on these treads is giving someone a window into your home. From what I have seen and read, I would doubt that the Savior would feel welcome in some of these homes.
> 
> Stop the animosity and start respecting one another. It is time for all of us to keep all of the commandments and show it through our words, deeds, and actions.



This is "Christmas season" for some. As for peace on earth, as long as evil exists on Earth, mankind will not have peace as the world thinks of it. As for the Savior being welcome in some of these homes, in some He is absolutely not welcome, much as when He came into this world some 2000+ years ago. 

There is, within your post, a naivete' which is refreshing and a bit of a problem as most who consistently post here are rather rigid on certain points. One of those is when posters seek to squelch the discussion and debate. We are as a whole, rabbit-chasers, borderline hijackers and playful company for those who seek to understand as well as express themselves. The vast majority of threads die a natural death, with occasional "resurrection" or repetition.




> Love your neighbor.



You too, neighbor.


----------



## Randy (Dec 18, 2008)

I am not real sure what denomination is Christian anymore.  Seems most have gone way off track.  I certainly thing The Church as a whole has let this country down.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 18, 2008)

Free Willie said:


> Twoshoes,
> 
> I think the problem comes from the fact that when you take something that is good and pure, in this example, the Christian Faith, and pervert it and try to convince believers of this pure faith that your perverted version is legitimate, we get a little up in arms.
> 
> ...



Willie, you can rest assured that the LDS religion does not need legitimacy from getting close to "Christians" who are more interested in casting stones than in understanding.  I find it fascinating that you choose to get angry in ignorance, rather than seek wisdom and understanding of those you condemn.


----------



## GA1dad (Dec 18, 2008)

Just my two cents,,,,,

This thread defines why religion is is losing ground in this country.


----------



## addictedtodeer (Dec 18, 2008)

gtparts said:


> My relationship with God matters when absolutely nothing else does, not life, liberty, nor family!
> 
> 
> All religion is sacred to the individual adherent, *but all religions can not be true*. Most are sincere, some are deceived



AMEN!

THat is why we must always ask "What Jesus are you worshiping?"
Hence the beginning of this thread.


----------



## Free Willie (Dec 18, 2008)

hawglips said:


> Willie, you can rest assured that the LDS religion does not need legitimacy from getting close to "Christians" who are more interested in casting stones than in understanding.  I find it fascinating that you choose to get angry in ignorance, rather than seek wisdom and understanding of those you condemn.



I'm not quite following your statement there. I'm not casting stones. I am stating fact. If I get angry, it is because of my KNOWLEDGE of Christianity, not my ignorance of it. I HAVE sought wisdom and understanding of your cult and that is why I am totally, 100% against everything Joseph Smith has sold to people.

Your founder was a criminal. He was a con artist. He wrote the book of mormon to enrich himself and his family. You speak of the 11 witnesses. They were his like minded relatives and buddies. No surprise there. No trace of the gold tablets he translated. You have been fooled by Satan himself.


----------



## twoshoes (Dec 18, 2008)

*the Greatest Commandment Hymn*

A New Commandment, I Give unto You That you Love One Another As I Have Loved You That You Love One Another As I have loved You.

By this shall all men know, that you are my Disciples If You have love one for another By this shall all men know, that you are my Disciples If You have Love one for Another. 

Here is a list of the hymns the LDS members around the world sing from their hymn books on Sunday. Jesus Christ, Jesus of Nazerath, the Risen Lord Jesus Christ is at the center of these hymns. Some are unique to your own hymnbooks and some are unique to the LDS church. 

    * 1. The Morning Breaks; words by Parley P. Pratt, music by George Careless
    * 2. The Spirit of God; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 3. Now Let Us Rejoice; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 4. Truth Eternal; words by Parley P. Pratt
    * 5. High On A Mountain Top; words by Joel H. Johnson, music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 6. Redeemer of Israel; words by William Wines Phelps, adapted from Joseph Swain
    * 7. Israel, Israel, God Is Calling
    * 8. Awake and Arise
    * 9. Come, Rejoice
    * 10. Come, Sing to the Lord; words and mustic by Gerrit de Jong Jr.
    * 11. What Was Witnessed in the Heavens?; music by Evan Stephens
    * 12. 'Twas Witnessed in the Morning Sky
    * 13. An Angel from on High; words by Parley P. Pratt,
    * 14. Sweet Is the Peace the Gospel Brings
    * 15. I Saw a Mighty Angel Fly
    * 16. What Glorious Scenes Mine Eyes Behold; music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 17. Awake, Ye Saints of God, Awake!; words by Eliza R. Snow, music by Evan Stephens
    * 18. The Voice of God Again is Heard; words and music by Evan Stephens
    * 19. We Thank Thee, O God, for a Prophet
    * 20. God of Power, God of Right; words by Wallace F. Bennett
    * 21. Come, Listen to a Prophet's Voice; words by Joseph S. Murdock
    * 22. We Listen to a Prophet's Voice
    * 23. We Ever Pray for Thee; text and music by H. A. Tuckett, adapted by Evan Stephens
    * 24. God Bless Our Prophet Dear
    * 25. Now We'll Sing With One Accord; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 26. Joseph Smith's First Prayer; words by George Manwaring
    * 27. Praise to the Man; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 28. Saints, Behold How Great Jehovah
    * 29. A Poor Wayfaring Man of Grief; words by James Montgomery
    * 30. Come, Come, Ye Saints; words by William Clayton
    * 31. O God, Our Help in Ages Past; words by Isaac Watts
    * 32. The Happy Day at Last Has Come; music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 33. Our Mountain Home So Dear; music by Evan Stephens, words by Emmeline B. Wells
    * 34. O Ye Mountains High
    * 35. For the Strength of the Hills; music by Evan Stephens
    * 36. They, the Builders of the Nation
    * 37. The Wintry Day, Descending to Its Close; words by Orson F. Whitney, music by Edward P. Kimball
    * 38. Come, All Ye Saints of Zion; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 39. O Saints of Zion
    * 40. Arise, O Glorious Zion; music by George Careless
    * 41. Let Zion in Her Beauty Rise
    * 42. Hail to the Brightness of Zion's glad Morning!
    * 43. Zion Stands with Hills Surrounded
    * 44. Beautiful Zion, Built Above
    * 45. Lead Me Into Life Eternal
    * 46. Glorious Things of Thee Are Spoken
    * 47. We Will Sing of Zion
    * 48. Glorious Things Are Sung of Zion; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 49. Adam-ondi-Ahman; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 50. Come, Though Glorious Day of Promise
    * 51. Sons of Michael, He Approaches
    * 52. The Day Dawn is Breaking; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 53. Let Earth's Inhabitants Rejoice
    * 54. Behold, the Mountain of the Lord
    * 55. Lo, the Mighty God Appearing!; music by Evan Stephens
    * 56. Softly Beams the Sacred Dawning; words by John Jaques, music by J. Spencer Cornwall
    * 57. We're Not Ashamed to Own Our Lord; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 58. Come, Ye Children of the Lord
    * 59. Come, O Thou King of Kings; words by Parley P. Pratt,
    * 60. Battle Hymn of the Republic
    * 61. Raise Your Voice to the Lord
    * 62. All Creatures of Our God and King; words by St. Francis of Assisi, translation by William H. Draper
    * 63. Great King of Heaven
    * 64. On This Day of Joy and Gladness
    * 65. Come, All ye Saints Who Dwell on Earth; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 66. Rejoice, the Lord Is King!
    * 67. Glory to God on High
    * 68. A Mighty Fortress Is Our God; words by Martin Luther, music attributed to Martin Luther
    * 69. All Glory, Laud, and Honor
    * 70. Sing Praise to Him
    * 71. With Songs of Praise
    * 72. Praise to the Lord, the Almighty
    * 73. Praise the Lord with Heart and Voice
    * 74. Praise Ye the Lord; words by Isaac Watts, music by Evan Stephens
    * 75. In Hymns of Praise
    * 76. God of Our Fathers, We Come unto Thee; music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 77. Great Is the Lord; words by Eliza R. Snow, music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 78. God of Our Fathers, Whose Almighty Hand; words by Daniel C. Roberts, music by George W. Warren
    * 79. With All the Power of Heart and Tongue; words by Isaac Watts
    * 80. God of Our Fathers, Known of Old
    * 81. Press Forward, Saints
    * 82. For All the Saints
    * 83. Guide Us, O Thou Great Jehovah
    * 84. Faith of Our Fathers
    * 85. How Firm a Foundation
    * 86. How Great Thou Art, words by Stuart K. Hine (with alterations), music from a Swedish folk melody
    * 87. God Is Love
    * 88. Great God, Attend While Zion Sings; words by Isaac Watts
    * 89. The Lord is My Light
    * 90. From All That Dwell below the Skies; words by Isaac Watts
    * 91. Father, Thy Children to Thee Now Raise; words and music by Evan Stephens
    * 92. For the Beauty of the Earth
    * 93. Prayer of Thanksgiving
    * 94. Come, Ye Thankful People
    * 95. Now Thank We All Our God
    * 96. Dearest Children, God is Near You
    * 97. Lead, Kindly Light
    * 98. I Need Thee Every Hour
    * 99. Nearer, Dear Savior, to Thee; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 100. Nearer My God to Thee
    * 101. Guide Me to Thee
    * 102. Jesus, Lover of My Soul
    * 103. Precious Savior, Dear Redeemer
    * 104. Jesus, Savior, Pilot Me
    * 105. Master, the Tempest Is Raging
    * 106. God Speed the Right
    * 107. Lord, Accept Our True Devotion
    * 108. The Lord Is My Shepherd
    * 109. The Lord My Pasture Will Prepare
    * 110. Cast Thy Burden Upon the Lord
    * 111. Rock of Ages
    * 112. Savior, Redeemer of My Soul; words by Orson F. Whitney, music by Harry A. Dean
    * 113. Our Savior's Love
    * 114. Come Unto Him
    * 115. Come, Ye Disconsolate
    * 116. Come, Follow Me
    * 117. Come Unto Jesus
    * 118. Ye Simple Souls Who Stray; music by Evan Stephens
    * 119. Come, We That Love the Lord; words by Isaac Watts
    * 120. Lean on My Ample Arm; music by Evan Stephens
    * 121. I'm a Pilgrim, I'm a Stranger
    * 122. Though Deepening Trials; words by Eliza R. Snow, music by George Careless
    * 123. Oh, May My Soul Commune With Thee
    * 124. Be Still, My Soul; words by Katharina von Schlegel, translation by Jane Borthwick, music by Jean Sibelius
    * 125. How Gentle God's Commands
    * 126. How Long, O Lord Most Holy and True?; words by John A. Widtsoe, music by B. Cecil Gates
    * 127. Does the Journey Seem Long?; words by Joseph Fielding Smith, music by George D. Pyper
    * 128. When Faith Endures; words by Naomi W. Randall
    * 129. Where Can I Turn for Peace?
    * 130. Be Thou Humble
    * 131. More Holiness Give Me
    * 132. God Is in His Holy Temple
    * 133. Father in Heaven
    * 134. I Believe in Christ; words by Bruce R. McConkie
    * 135. My Redeemer Lives; words by Gordon B. Hinckley, music by G. Homer Durham
    * 136. I Know That My Redeemer Lives
    * 137. Testimony
    * 138. Bless Our Fast, We Pray
    * 139. In Fasting We Approach Thee; music by Clay Christiansen
    * 140. Did You Think to Pray?
    * 141. Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee
    * 142. Sweet Hour of Prayer
    * 143. Let the Holy Spirit Guide
    * 144. Secret Prayer
    * 145. Prayer Is the Soul's Sincere Desire; music by George Careless
    * 146. Gently Raise the Sacred Strain; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 147. Sweet Is the Work; words by Isaac Watts
    * 148. Sabbath Day
    * 149. As the Dew from Heaven Distilling
    * 150. O Thou Kind and Gracious Father; music by George Careless
    * 151. We Meet, Dear Lord
    * 152. God Be with You Till We Meet Again
    * 153. Lord, We Ask Thee Ere We Part; words by George Manwaring, music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 154. Father, This Hour Has Been One of Joy
    * 155. We Have Partaken of Thy Love
    * 156. Sing We Now at Parting; words by George Manwaring, music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 157. Thy Spirit, Lord, Has Stirred Our Souls; words by Frank I. Kooyman, music by Alexander Schreiner
    * 158. Before Thee, Lord, I Bow My Head
    * 159. Now the Day Is Over
    * 160. Softly Now the Light of Day
    * 161. The Lord Be with Us
    * 162. Lord, We Come Before Thee Now
    * 163. Lord, Dismiss Us with Thy Blessing; words by John Fawcett, music by Jean-Jacques Rousseau
    * 164. Great God, to Thee My Evening Song
    * 165. Abide With me; 'Tis Eventide
    * 166. Abide with Me!
    * 167. Come, Let Us Sing an Evening Hymn; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 168. As the Shadows Fall
    * 169. As Now We Take the Sacrament
    * 170. God, Our Father, Hear Us Pray
    * 171. With Humble Heart
    * 172. In Humility, Our Savior
    * 173. While of These Emblems We Partake [SAUL]
    * 174. While of These Emblems We Partake [AEOLIAN]
    * 175. O God, the Eternal Father; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 176. 'Tis Sweet to Sing the Matchless Love; words by George Manwaring
    * 177. 'Tis Sweet to Sing the Matchless Love; words by George Manwaring, music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 178. O Lord of Hosts; music by George Careless
    * 179. Again, Our Dear Redeeming Lord
    * 180. Father in Heaven, We Do Believe; words by Parley P. Pratt
    * 181. Jesus of Nazareth, Savior and King
    * 182. We'll Sing All Hail to Jesus' Name
    * 183. In Remembrance of Thy Suffering; words and music by Evan Stephens
    * 184. Upon the Cross of Calvary
    * 185. Reverently and Meekly Now; music by Ebenezer Beesley, words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 186. Again We Meet Around the Board; words by Eliza R. Snow, music by George Careless
    * 187. God Loved Us, So He Sent His Son; words by Edward P. Kimball, music by Alexander Schreiner
    * 188. Thy Will, O Lord, Be Done
    * 189. O Thou, Before the World Began
    * 190. In Memory of the Crucified
    * 191. Behold the Great Redeemer Die; music by George Careless
    * 192. He Died! The Great Redeemer Died; words by Isaac Watts, music by George Careless
    * 193. I Stand All Amazed
    * 194. There is a Green Hill Far Away
    * 195. How Great the Wisdom and the Love; words by Eliza R. Snow
    * 196. Jesus, Once of Humble Birth; words by Parley P. Pratt
    * 197. O Savior, Thou Who Wearest a Crown; words by Karen Lynn Davidson, music by Hans Leo Hassler, adapted by Johann Sebastian Bach
    * 198. That Easter Morn; words by Marion D. Hanks, music by Robert Cundick
    * 199. He is Risen!
    * 200. Christ the Lord Is Risen Today
    * 201. Joy to the World; words by Isaac Watts, altered by William Wines Phelps
    * 202. Oh, Come, All Ye Faithful
    * 203. Angels We Have Heard on High
    * 204. Silent Night
    * 205. Once in Royal David's City
    * 206. Away in a Manger
    * 207. It Came Upon the Midnight Clear
    * 208. O Little Town of Bethlehem
    * 209. Hark! the Herald Angels Sing
    * 210. With Wondering Awe
    * 211. While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks
    * 212. Far, Far Away on Judea's Plains
    * 213. The First Noel
    * 214. I Heard the Bells on Christmas Day
    * 215. Ring Out, Wild Bells
    * 216. We Are Sowing
    * 217. Come, Let Us Anew
    * 218. We Give Thee But Thine Own
    * 219. Because I Have Been Given Much
    * 220. Lord, I Would Follow Thee
    * 221. Dear to the Heart of the Shepherd
    * 222. Hear Thou Our Hymn, O Lord
    * 223. Have I Done Any Good?
    * 224. I Have Work Enough to Do
    * 225. We Are Marching On to Glory
    * 226. Improve the Shining Moments
    * 227. There Is Sunshine in My Soul Today
    * 228. You Can Make the Pathway Bright
    * 229. Today, While the Sun Shines
    * 230. Scatter Sunshine
    * 231. Father, Cheer Our Souls Tonight
    * 232. Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words; music by Ebenezer Beesley, words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 233. Nay, Speak No Ill
    * 234. Jesus, Mighty King in Zion
    * 235. Should You Feel Inclined to Censure
    * 236. Lord, Accept into Thy Kingdom
    * 237. Do What Is Right
    * 238. Behold Thy Sons and Daughters, Lord; words by Parley P. Pratt,
    * 239. Choose the Right; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 240. Know This, That Every Soul Is Free
    * 241. Count Your Blessings
    * 242. Praise God, from Whom All Blessings Flow
    * 243. Let Us All Press On; words and music by Evan Stephens
    * 244. Come Along, Come Along; words by William Willes
    * 245. This House We Dedicate to Thee
    * 246. Onward, Christian Soldiers
    * 247. We Love Thy House, O God
    * 248. Up, Awake Ye Defenders of Zion
    * 249. Called To Serve
    * 250. We Are All Enlisted
    * 251. Behold! A Royal Army
    * 252. Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel
    * 253. Like Ten Thousand Legions Marching
    * 254. True to the Faith; words and music by Evan Stephens
    * 255. Carry On; words by Ruth May Fox
    * 256. As Zion's Youth In Latter Days
    * 257. Rejoice! A Glorious Sound Is Heard
    * 258. O Thou Rock of Our Salvation; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 259. Hope of Israel; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 260. Who's on the Lord's Side?
    * 261. Thy Servants Are Prepared
    * 262. Go, Ye Messengers of Glory
    * 263. Go Forth with Faith
    * 264. Hark, All Ye Nations!
    * 265. Arise, O God, and Shine
    * 266. The Time Is Far Spent; words by Eliza R. Snow
    * 267. How Wondrous and Great
    * 268. Come, All Whose Souls are Lighted
    * 269. Jehovah, Lord of Heaven and Earth
    * 270. I'll Go Where You Want Me to Go
    * 271. Oh, Holy Words of Truth and Love; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 272. Oh Say, What Is Truth?; words by John Jaques
    * 273. Truth Reflects Upon Our Senses; words by Eliza R. Snow
    * 274. The Iron Rod; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 275. Men Are That They Might Have Joy
    * 276. Come Away to Sunday School
    * 277. As I Search the Holy Scriptures
    * 278. Thanks for the Sabbath School; words by William Willes
    * 279. Thy Holy Word, music by Robert Cundick
    * 280. Welcome, Welcome, Sabbath Morning; music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 281. Help Me Teach with Inspiration
    * 282. We Meet Again in Sabbath School; words by George Manwaring, music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 283. The Glorious Gospel Light Has Shone
    * 284. If You Could Hie to Kolob; words by William Wines Phelps
    * 285. God Moves in a Mysterious Way
    * 286. Oh, What Songs of the Heart; words by Joseph L. Townsend
    * 287. Rise, Ye Saints, and Temples Enter
    * 288. How Beautiful Thy Temples, Lord
    * 289. Holy Temples on Mount Zion
    * 290. Rejoice, Ye Saints of Latter Days
    * 291. Turn Your Hearts
    * 292. O My Father; words by Eliza R. Snow
    * 293. Each Life That Touches Ours for Good
    * 294. Love at Home
    * 295. O Love That Glorifies the Son
    * 296. Our Father, by Whose Name
    * 297. From Homes of Saints Glad Songs Arise
    * 298. Home Can Be a Heaven on Earth
    * 299. Children of Our Heavenly Father
    * 300. Families Can Be Together Forever
    * 301. I Am a Child of God; words by Naomi W. Randall
    * 302. I Know My Father Lives
    * 303. Keep the Commandments
    * 304. Teach Me to Walk in the Light
    * 305. The Light Divine
    * 306. God's Daily Care
    * 307. In Our Lovely Deseret; words by Eliza R. Snow
    * 308. Love One Another
    * 309. As Sisters in Zion; words by Emily H. Woodmansee, music by Janice Kapp Perry
    * 310. A Key Was Turned in Latter Days
    * 311. We Meet Again As Sisters
    * 312. We Ever Pray For Thee
    * 313. God Is Love
    * 314. How Gentle God's Commands
    * 315. Jesus, the Very Thought of Thee
    * 316. The Lord Is My Shepherd
    * 317. Sweet Is the Work; words by Isaac Watts
    * 318. Love at Home
    * 319. Ye Elders of Israel
    * 320. The Priesthood of Our Lord
    * 321. Ye Who Are Called to Labor
    * 322. Come, All Ye Sons of God
    * 323. Rise Up, O Men of God (KENILWORTH)
    * 324. Rise Up, O Men of God (FESTAL SONG)
    * 325. See The Mighty Priesthood Gathered
    * 326. Come, Come, Ye Saints; words by William Clayton
    * 327. Go, Ye Messengers of Heaven
    * 328. An Angel From on High; words by Parley P. Pratt
    * 329. Thy Servants Are Prepared
    * 330. See, The Mighty Angel Flying; words by Robert B. Thompson; music by Evan Stephens
    * 331. Oh Say, What Is Truth?
    * 332. Come, O Thou Kings of Kings; words by Parley P. Pratt,
    * 333. High on the Mountain Top; music by Ebenezer Beesley
    * 334. I Need Thee Every Hour
    * 335. Brightly Beams Our Father's Mercy
    * 336. School Thy Feelings
    * 337. O Home Beloved; words by Evan Stephens
    * 338. America the Beautiful
    * 339. My Country 'Tis of Thee
    * 340. The Star-Spangled Banner
    * 341. God Save the King

Regardless of how you feel about Mormons, I think it is time to set aside your preconceived notions and start looking at topics (regardless of what they are) with an open mind and a soft heart.


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## Free Willie (Dec 18, 2008)

I may be way off base here, so if my fellow Christians say I am then I will stand down...BUT! I do not think a hymnal is a very good litmus test to see if a church is truly Christian or not.

If I am not mistaken, Lucifer used to sing to the Lord, as well.


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## dawg2 (Dec 18, 2008)

Free Willie said:


> I may be way off base here, so if my fellow Christians say I am then I will stand down...BUT! I do not think a hymnal is a very good litmus test to see if a church is truly Christian or not.
> 
> If I am not mistaken, Lucifer used to sing to the Lord, as well.



Lucifer was the "Minister of Music."


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## twoshoes (Dec 18, 2008)

*House of Order*

All religions may not be true, but all religions contain truth. Leave it to each individual to decide and worship as they please without telling them what they believe. If they choose it, leave them with it. 

You say you are trying to find truth yet you plug your ears to anything that doesn’t reconfirm what you already believe. 

Your beliefs come from what your parents believed and theirs came from what their parents believed. Yet everyone will eventually begin to question what they believe and seek out answers to their questions.

If a religion makes one a better individual, citizen and member of society should it be the subject of persecution? Discussion? Yes. Yet when you begin and debate and close your ears, mind, and heart to the matter- you are bringing about no good because you stopped being a rational person.

Why are so many delighting in the throwing Mormons into the fire? Do you wish them ill? 

Do you want their babies bashed against walls, their women and girls raped, and their men and boys murdered? If the laws of the land allowed you to do so, would you?

Before reading this tread, I would say no. There is no way Georgia residents would seek the absolute destruction of their fellow citizens on the basis of being a Mormon. 

Now after reading this tread, I believe my neighbors who are LDS have reason to fear their neighbors. 

Maybe we should all start worrying about our own judgment day rather than busy ourselves with the judgment day of others. It is time to set our own lives in order and prepare ourselves to meet our God.

God is perfect and we are imperfect. We must strive ourselves to be like Him and model our lives after His example. We need Him and we love Him.


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## dawg2 (Dec 18, 2008)

twoshoes said:


> All religions may not be true, but all religions contain truth. Leave it to each individual to decide and worship as they please without telling them what they believe. If they choose it, leave them with it.
> 
> You say you are trying to find truth yet you plug your ears to anything that doesn’t reconfirm what you already believe.
> 
> ...



You haven't read any of the Catholic threads yet have you?


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## twoshoes (Dec 18, 2008)

My mother taught me that singing a hymn to God was like saying a prayer of thanks to Him. It shows respect, humility, and love for all that He has done for me.

The topic of this forum was to better understand Mormons and are they Christians. 

For me, the core values, service to others, the hymns, the scriptures, and the prayers of individual dictates the beliefs of that person.


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## addictedtodeer (Dec 18, 2008)

twoshoes said:


> All religions may not be true, but all religions contain truth. Leave it to each individual to decide and worship as they please without telling them what they believe. If they choose it, leave them with it.
> 
> 
> Why are so many delighting in the throwing Mormons into the fire? Do you wish them ill?
> ...



Let me speak only for myself.  
the greatest evil I can do is not speak about what Christ is true. To challenge everyone who claims to know Christ if they actually do, is the greatest act of LOVE.

Joh 14:6  Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 
Joh 14:7  If you had known me, you would have known my Father also. From now on you do know him and have seen him." 

Life depends upon which Jesus you worship.
Close enough only counts for horseshoes, hand grenades and nuclear weapons.
Close enough to the real Jesus ****s one to HE!!.

There is no close, there is only one Christ, the eternal son of God. We all need to make sure we believe the right one.

There is only one truth, that is only found in the eternal Son of God.

Those who despise the Mormons or anyone else are the ones who ignore scripture and say "Go ahead believe what you want"

Christ did not give us that option, nor should we so callously give that option to others. That is ****ing a person to He!!.


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## twoshoes (Dec 18, 2008)

*Religious intolerance*



dawg2 said:


> You haven't read any of the Catholic threads yet have you?



They are not as clear cut a bashing this has been. Unless of course they were well before my time joining the forum. Most of the posts concerning the Catholic faith have been veiled rather than blatant bashing and irreverence. 

Seems to me, like there is not as much a discussion regarding Catholics.

How come no body bashes the differences between Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, and so forth? Are people fearful of breaking up the mob against non-Protestants?

How about debating non-Christian beliefs- Is the Muslim and Jewish faith too taboo?

How about Hare Krishnas? Buddhists?

It seems to me that this is simply an opportunity for Protestant zealots to bully other religions. 

Seems like this is a cult itself.

Cult- an instance of great veneration of a person, ideal, or thing, esp. as manifested by a body of admirers

Cult- the object of such devotion.

Cult- a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.

As anyone can see, cult is a loose term that can be associated with any of the previous definitions. So for that matter, those who are organized together to bash and seek the destruction of the Catholic, Jewish, Mormon, Muslim, or any other non-Protestant religions is a cult.


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## idsman75 (Dec 18, 2008)

And the LDS hymnals also change the words to those hymns to fit their own doctrine.

i.e. "Holy Holy Holy" was written for Easter/Trinity Sunday.  The word "Trinity" is changed to "Deity" in the LDS hymnal--at least I assume so since those are the words sung by the Mormon Tabernacle Choir.


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## Big10point (Dec 19, 2008)

here's all the reasons i need to view the LDS's as not being True Christians.  There are True Christians and there are "christians in name only" or cino's... yes, you can be sincere in your beliefs and be sincerely wrong... God is a God of love AND judgement. If you'll read your KJ you'll discover the real God. most people don't care for the God of the KJ, so they make up their own God, that fits their desires...  Their God, is the god of their belly...

taken from:
http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0186.htm

Ten Reasons Why Not to be a Mormon (Latter Day Saint)

1. Mormonism does not teach that the Bible is the infallible Word of God. 
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God" (Articles of faith, No. 8). 
As Christians we believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the verbally inspired Word of God, the final authority for faith and life, inerrant in the original writings, infallible and God-breathed (Matt. 5:18; II Tim. 3:16-17; II Pet. 1:20-21). 

2. Mormonism teaches that God is an exalted man and has a physical body. 
"God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's..." (Doc. & Cov., Sec. 130:22). 
The Bible says, "God is not a man..." (Num. 23:19). "God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). "A spirit hath not flesh and bones..." (Luke 24:39). 

3. Mormonism teaches that Christ and the devil are brothers 
"...that Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ" (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, pp. 163-4). 
The Bible says the devil is a created being, created by God. "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:15). "For by Him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him and for Him..." (Col. 1:15-17). 

4. Mormonism Teaches that Jesus Christ Was Married and That He Is Polygamous. 
"We say it was Jesus Christ who was married at Cana of Galilee" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 80). 
Mormonism teaches that Jesus was the natural child of Adam and Mary. "When the Virgin Mary 
conceived the Child Jesus... He was not begotten of the Holy Ghost. And who is his Father? He is the first of the human family" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, pp. 50-51). 
The Bible says, "In the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God;...The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1, 14). "Then Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee..." (Luke 1:34-35). 

5. Mormonism teaches that the true church ceased to exist until it was restored to Joseph Smith. 
The church (LDS) was restored April 6, 1830 by Joseph Smith (Doc. & Cov., 20:1). 
Jesus Christ said, "I will build my church and the gates of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). 
"For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 3:11). "...And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20). 

6. Mormonism teaches another (perverted) gospel than that of the Bible. 
The gospel to Mormonism is, "Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receiving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, Morality, Loyalty, Tithing, Word of Wisdom, Duty, Celestial Marriage (for eternity)" (LDS chart on FREE AGENCY and Articles of Faith, No.4). 
The Bible says, "Moreover brethren, I declare unto you the gospel... how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15: 1, 3-4). "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:9). 

7. Mormonism Teaches Salvation For the Dead By Proxy Water Baptism. 
This doctrine is based on one misunderstood Scripture: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead?" (I Cor. 15:29). 
Paul did not practice baptism for the dead. He excluded himself by using the pronoun "they" rather than "we" or "ye". He is asking a question rather than making a statement. "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27). 

8. Mormonism teaches genealogical research for the dead. 
"Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation" (Doc. & Cov., Sec. 128:24). 
The Bible says, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies" (I Tim. 1:4). "But avoid foolish questions and genealogies..." (Titus 3:9). 

9. Mormonism teaches that there are modern day prophets and modern day revelations from God. 
Mormonism claims that Joseph Smith received the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist. The 
Melchizadek Priesthood and Apostleship was restored by Peter, James and John shortly afterwards in 1829 (Doc. & Cov., Sec. 13). 
The Bible says, "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by hisSon, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" (Heb. 1:1-2). The test of a prophet is given in Deut. 18:20-22. 

10. Mormonism teaches that salvation depends upon good works and acceptance of Joseph Smith. 
"No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of 
Salvation, Vol. 1, pg. 190). "Men have work to do if they would obtain salvation" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, pg. 91). 
The Bible teaches that salvation is provided by Jesus Christ alone, "for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12). "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9). 
My friend, the Bible clearly states the way for a person to escape the wrath of God and enjoy the blessings of eternity in God's presence. Jesus said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). In God's way of salvation a person must accept certain facts about God, about himself, and about Jesus Christ. 
He must understand that God in love provided the method by which men may come to Him. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This God is not limited by a body of flesh and bones. 
Man must also acknowledge that he has fallen short of God's standard and so deserves eternal punishment and separation from God. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23). 
An individual must realize that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man and that He paid the price for each man's sin. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (I Pet. 3:18). 
In God's plan each individual must personally received God's gift in order to be saved. "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name" (John 1:12). 
Salvation comes not through man's works, proxy water baptism, or a belief in Joseph Smith, but by 
accepting the finished work of Jesus Christ. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us" (Titus 3:5). 
Are you a Christian? Have you come to God in God's way as described in the Bible?


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 19, 2008)

Big10point said:


> here's all the reasons i need to view the LDS's as not being True Christians.
> 
> taken from:
> http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0186.htm



Always ask a Chevy man his opinions on a Ford - thats what I always say


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## TaxPhd (Dec 19, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> Always ask a Chevy man his opinions on a Ford - thats what I always say



Ouch!  What a stinging comeback.

Why not address the points that were raised?



Scott


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## Big7 (Dec 20, 2008)

Mormons were founded in the 1800’s – some 300 years after the Protestant Revolt – and their teachings are not based on Protestant beliefs, but instead on a belief that the whole church collapsed (apostasy) in the early centuries and that the Mormon founder, John Smith, was a prophet sent to re-establish the Christ’s church. 



Details here:  http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp


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## Free Willie (Dec 20, 2008)

TaxPhd said:


> Ouch!  What a stinging comeback.
> 
> Why not address the points that were raised?
> 
> ...



Because a lie, when confronted with truth, is not defendable. It's a cult.


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## Free Willie (Dec 20, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Mormons were founded in the 1800’s – some 300 years after the Protestant Revolt – and their teachings are not based on Protestant beliefs, but instead on a belief that the whole church collapsed (apostasy) in the early centuries and that the Mormon founder, John Smith, was a prophet sent to re-establish the Christ’s church.
> 
> 
> 
> Details here:  http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp




But before he was sent to re-establish Christ's church he was sent to be a snake oil salesman.


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## PJason (Dec 20, 2008)

twoshoes said:


> Are people fearful of breaking up the mob against non-Protestants?


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## Big10point (Dec 20, 2008)

Free Willie said:


> Because a lie, when confronted with truth, is not defendable. It's a cult.



True...  its a shame that anyone who is seeking God, is going down the wrong road. Jesus said that the road to Him was narrow and the road to destruction was broad. That is heart breaking to me. When I drive by a JW hall or LDS church it is very distrurbing. These good people think they are following Christ but are not. The Bible is clear, and it tells us perfectly how things will be with the "church". There are 2 churches.  1)God's church, which is filled with His children and 2)all other churches, faiths and religions. Our ONLY guide should be the Bible and not just any Bible but the one that has been proven, the KJ 1611.  If a person strays from the Bible and looks to man made religion (LDS & J. Smith)... he will likely find himself in error...  There has been no new revelation since John wrote Revelation.  None from the popes, Mary B. Eddy, Smith, B. Young, none... these people have done nothing to Christianity but confuse it and get people on the wrong road... The Bible and all new revelation is closed until Jesus returns.  If you see a sign, dont beleive it... regardless, if its a mary apparition, crying statue, OR new revelation from a sinful man. Take your KJ and study God's Word as if your soul dependeds on it... which it does...  Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God...


----------



## PJason (Dec 20, 2008)

Big10point said:


> Bible but the one that has been proven, the KJ 1611.




Because if it was good enough for Jesus then it's good enough for me.


----------



## Banjo (Dec 20, 2008)

> How come no body bashes the differences between Baptists, Methodists, and Presbyterians, and so forth? Are people fearful of breaking up the mob against non-Protestants?



You must be new here....


----------



## Banjo (Dec 20, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Mormons were founded in the 1800’s – some 300 years after the Protestant Revolt – and their teachings are not based on Protestant beliefs, but instead on a belief that the whole church collapsed (apostasy) in the early centuries and that the Mormon founder, John Smith, was a prophet sent to re-establish the Christ’s church.
> 
> 
> 
> Details here:  http://www.catholic.com/library/Distinctive_Beliefs_of_Mormon.asp



Hey Big7...

Didn't you tell on me to the moderators after I made a similar comment against the corruption found in the Catholic Church at the time the Reformers "Protested..."

hehehehe.....


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Dec 20, 2008)

> Most of the posts concerning the Catholic faith have been veiled rather than blatant bashing and irreverence.



You REALLY need to go back and read those threads.


----------



## Big7 (Dec 20, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Hey Big7...
> 
> Didn't you tell on me to the moderators after I made a similar comment against the corruption found in the Catholic Church at the time the Reformers "Protested..."
> 
> hehehehe.....



Not really... Deb.

I was on a rant then. (could happen anytime)
Like I told you then - Yours just happened to be
the "next" post in a long string and I was 

Nothing against you though.

Nothing against Mormons either.

As long as (-------) insert denomination/religion here
are peacful and not terrorist - have fun.

Just don't get me started on "the peaceful muslims" though.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 21, 2008)

Free Willie said:


> I'm not quite following your statement there. I'm not casting stones. I am stating fact. If I get angry, it is because of my KNOWLEDGE of Christianity, not my ignorance of it. I HAVE sought wisdom and understanding of your cult and that is why I am totally, 100% against everything Joseph Smith has sold to people.



You have not sought wisdom, you have sought to cast stones -- at a religion you don't know anything about -- as demonstrated by your words here.  It is not due to your knowledge of anything, but your ignorance of it.



Free Willie said:


> Your founder was a criminal. He was a con artist. He wrote the book of mormon to enrich himself and his family. You speak of the 11 witnesses. They were his like minded relatives and buddies. No surprise there. No trace of the gold tablets he translated. You have been fooled by Satan himself.



Willie, Moses was a murderer.  Christ was considered a criminal.  Noah was considered a lunatic.  

You can continue to cast stones in ignorance and hate -- that's your choice.  I'll pray for you.


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 21, 2008)

Big10point said:


> .... Our ONLY guide should be the Bible and not just any Bible but the one that has been proven, the KJ 1611....



Which one?


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 21, 2008)

Twenty five ought six said:


> You REALLY need to go back and read those threads.



Beat me to it


----------



## hawglips (Dec 21, 2008)

Big10point said:


> here's all the reasons i need to view the LDS's as not being True Christians.  There are True Christians and there are "christians in name only" or cino's... yes, you can be sincere in your beliefs and be sincerely wrong... God is a God of love AND judgement. If you'll read your KJ you'll discover the real God. most people don't care for the God of the KJ, so they make up their own God, that fits their desires...  Their God, is the god of their belly...
> 
> taken from:
> http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0186.htm



This is your first mistake.



> Ten Reasons Why Not to be a Mormon (Latter Day Saint)
> 
> 1. Mormonism does not teach that the Bible is the infallible Word of God.
> "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God" (Articles of faith, No. 8).
> As Christians we believe the Holy Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments to be the verbally inspired Word of God, the final authority for faith and life, inerrant in the original writings, infallible and God-breathed (Matt. 5:18; II Tim. 3:16-17; II Pet. 1:20-21).



"Inerrant in the original writings...."

It looks like the Baptists agree with the Mormons.



> 2. Mormonism teaches that God is an exalted man and has a physical body.
> "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 345). "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's..." (Doc. & Cov., Sec. 130:22).
> The Bible says, "God is not a man..." (Num. 23:19). "God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth" (John 4:24). "A spirit hath not flesh and bones..." (Luke 24:39).



So, the Baptists don't believe that Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God?

Do you?





> 3. Mormonism teaches that Christ and the devil are brothers
> "...that Lucifer, the son of the morning, is our elder brother and the brother of Jesus Christ" (Mormon Doctrine by Bruce McConkie, pp. 163-4).
> The Bible says the devil is a created being, created by God. "Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee" (Ezek. 28:15). "For by Him (Christ) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in the earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him and for Him..." (Col. 1:15-17).



Mormonism also teaches that you and I are brothers.  



> 4. Mormonism Teaches that Jesus Christ Was Married and That He Is Polygamous.
> "We say it was Jesus Christ who was married at Cana of Galilee" (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 2, p. 80).
> Mormonism teaches that Jesus was the natural child of Adam and Mary. "When the Virgin Mary
> conceived the Child Jesus... He was not begotten of the Holy Ghost. And who is his Father? He is the first of the human family" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, pp. 50-51).
> The Bible says, "In the beginning was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God;...The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us..." (John 1:1, 14). "Then Mary said unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? And the angel answered...The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee..." (Luke 1:34-35).



Mormonism doesn't teach that at all.




> 5. Mormonism teaches that the true church ceased to exist until it was restored to Joseph Smith.
> The church (LDS) was restored April 6, 1830 by Joseph Smith (Doc. & Cov., 20:1).
> Jesus Christ said, "I will build my church and the gates of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- shall not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).
> "For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ" (I Cor. 3:11). "...And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone" (Eph. 2:20).



The Nicene council was not laid by Jesus Christ.  There were no apostles or prophets present, but politicians and philosophers, and bishops.



> 6. Mormonism teaches another (perverted) gospel than that of the Bible.
> The gospel to Mormonism is, "Faith, Repentance, Baptism, Receiving the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands, Morality, Loyalty, Tithing, Word of Wisdom, Duty, Celestial Marriage (for eternity)" (LDS chart on FREE AGENCY and Articles of Faith, No.4).
> The Bible says, "Moreover brethren, I declare unto you the gospel... how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures" (I Cor. 15: 1, 3-4). "If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:9).



This one is funny.

Big10point, you should think a bit before you parrot ridiculous stuff like this.



> 7. Mormonism Teaches Salvation For the Dead By Proxy Water Baptism.
> This doctrine is based on one misunderstood Scripture: "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead?" (I Cor. 15:29).
> Paul did not practice baptism for the dead. He excluded himself by using the pronoun "they" rather than "we" or "ye". He is asking a question rather than making a statement. "It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Heb. 9:27).



Baptism is essential for salvation.  That's very clear in the Bible.  But what about the billions that have died with no opportunity to receive Christ and be baptized?  

Baptism of the dead is not based on any scripture.  It was revealed through a prophet, just like all doctrine throughout history.  




> 8. Mormonism teaches genealogical research for the dead.
> "Let us, therefore, as a church and a people, and as Latter-day Saints, offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness; and let us present in his holy temple, when it is finished, a book containing the records of our dead, which shall be worthy of all acceptation" (Doc. & Cov., Sec. 128:24).
> The Bible says, "Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies" (I Tim. 1:4). "But avoid foolish questions and genealogies..." (Titus 3:9).



I'd encourage you not to give heed to so the fables and foolish things preached about Mormonism by the website where you got these 10 points.



> 9. Mormonism teaches that there are modern day prophets and modern day revelations from God.
> Mormonism claims that Joseph Smith received the Aaronic Priesthood from John the Baptist. The
> Melchizadek Priesthood and Apostleship was restored by Peter, James and John shortly afterwards in 1829 (Doc. & Cov., Sec. 13).
> The Bible says, "God...hath in these last days spoken unto us by hisSon, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds" (Heb. 1:1-2). The test of a prophet is given in Deut. 18:20-22.



Amos 3:7 

I guess you think God establishes his word by committee (Nicene Council)?

I don't.



> 10. Mormonism teaches that salvation depends upon good works and acceptance of Joseph Smith.
> "No man who rejects the testimony of Joseph Smith can enter the kingdom of God" (Doctrines of
> Salvation, Vol. 1, pg. 190). "Men have work to do if they would obtain salvation" (Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. 3, pg. 91).
> The Bible teaches that salvation is provided by Jesus Christ alone, "for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:10-12). "For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast" (Eph. 2:8-9).



The Bible teaches us that faith without works is dead.  (James 2)  And by their fruits you will know who is a true disciple. 

Show me your faith without any works, and I'll show you my faith by my works.  You believe there is a God?  So do the devils.   By works a man is justified, and not by faith only.  And by works, is a man's faith made perfect.

Christ said, we will be judged by our works.  And that if we love him, we are to keep his commandments.  He said that we should be perfect.  He said that if we want eternal life, we are to keep the commandments.




> My friend, the Bible clearly states the way for a person to escape the wrath of God and enjoy the blessings of eternity in God's presence. Jesus said, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36). In God's way of salvation a person must accept certain facts about God, about himself, and about Jesus Christ.
> He must understand that God in love provided the method by which men may come to Him. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This God is not limited by a body of flesh and bones.
> Man must also acknowledge that he has fallen short of God's standard and so deserves eternal punishment and separation from God. "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:23).
> An individual must realize that Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man and that He paid the price for each man's sin. "For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" (I Pet. 3:18).
> ...



I am a Christian in every aspect you bring up, plus the ones I brought up.

Are you?


----------



## Big10point (Dec 21, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Which one?


http://www.baptistpillar.com/bd0002.htm
http://www.av-1611.com
www.av1611.com
www.av1611.org


----------



## Big10point (Dec 21, 2008)

hawglips said:


> This is your first mistake.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE OR AREN'T.... BUT YOU ARE IN ERROR.  JOSEPH SMITH AND B. YOUNG WERE FALSE PROPHETS AND TAUGHT A FALSE GOSPEL AND ARE BURNING IN Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----... I CHOOSE NOT TO FOLLOW THEM, JUST JESUS..


----------



## hawglips (Dec 23, 2008)

Big10point said:


> I AM NOT SAYING YOU ARE OR AREN'T.... BUT YOU ARE IN ERROR.



R not.

I do my best to follow all of Christ's teachings, in spite of those on here who try to convince me that it isn't necessary.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."


----------



## Big10point (Dec 23, 2008)

hawglips said:


> R not.
> 
> I do my best to follow all of Christ's teachings, in spite of those on here who try to convince me that it isn't necessary.
> 
> "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."



R too...

"All" of Christ's teachings are found in the KJ Bible, NOT in the writings of Smith and Young...  There has been no new revelation since John wrote Revelation. What J. Smith did was "add" to the Word of God...  by offering his own teachings...  The Bible exposes and condemns these false prophets... Gal 1:8-9 and Rev 22:18 proves that nothing can be add to the Scriptures...


----------



## pedrolamento (Dec 24, 2008)

*Mormons......Christians*

Get a gun, a motorcycle, a hobby, anything, but get a life.
If we all lived by the written virtues held sacred by almost any religious faith, we could all worry about our own salvation, live a life of kindness and charity and get on with living and loving.


----------



## Glyn (Dec 24, 2008)

We are all sinners and I maybe wrong but I haven't seen any book that has given any human the right to judge. I can promise if ever person that was judging somone else would look at themselves and try very hard to get themselves prepared it would make earth a much better place.


----------



## TaxPhd (Dec 24, 2008)

Glyn said:


> We are all sinners and I maybe wrong but I haven't seen any book that has given any human the right to judge. I can promise if ever person that was judging somone else would look at themselves and try very hard to get themselves prepared it would make earth a much better place.



Mormon bishops consider themselves (and are considered by other mormons) "Judges in Israel" (whatever the he11 that means).



Scott


----------



## farmasis (Dec 24, 2008)

Glyn said:


> We are all sinners and I maybe wrong but I haven't seen any book that has given any human the right to judge. I can promise if ever person that was judging somone else would look at themselves and try very hard to get themselves prepared it would make earth a much better place.


 
If someone is honestly trying to help someone trashing their beliefs or religion will not get you anywhere. (I am guilty also.) Claiming someones religion is false is the fastest way to turn someone off of whatever point you are trying to make.


----------



## Big10point (Dec 24, 2008)

Glyn said:


> We are all sinners and I maybe wrong but I haven't seen any book that has given any human the right to judge. I can promise if ever person that was judging somone else would look at themselves and try very hard to get themselves prepared it would make earth a much better place.





1 Corinthians 2:15
15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one....


----------



## Jeffriesw (Dec 24, 2008)

farmasis said:


> If someone is honestly trying to help someone trashing their beliefs or religion will not get you anywhere. (I am guilty also.) Claiming someones religion is false is the fastest way to turn someone off of whatever point you are trying to make.





Ya Think?


----------



## Big10point (Dec 24, 2008)

Swamp Runner said:


> Ya Think?



Not so...  when i was catholic, it was bashed like crazy....  i said , why?  i started researching the church... i was amazed at what i learned...  we should all search for the "Truth"...   there is only 1 Truth and a bunch of non truths...


----------



## christianhunter (Dec 25, 2008)

Glock Master said:


> He said so himself...............Mark 14:61-64................John 8:58-59............10:30-33



FATHER,SON,HOLY SPIRIT=ONE GOD.JESUS is THE WORD MADE FLESH,JESUS IS GOD.

Mormon's are NOT Christian's,they are a cult,as are Jehovah's Witness,christian scientist,Muslims,hindo,etc; etc;!!!!!!!!!

A can of worms better left closed,no Edification!


----------



## TaxPhd (Dec 26, 2008)

If one is a Christian because they believe in Jesus Christ, then yes, mormons are Christians.

However, you simply need to look at some things like polygamy and the mormon temple ceremony to see that mormonism is VERY different from what would be considered traditional Biblical Christianity. 



Scott


----------



## Free Willie (Dec 26, 2008)

Big10point said:


> R too...
> 
> "All" of Christ's teachings are found in the KJ Bible, NOT in the writings of Smith and Young...  There has been no new revelation since John wrote Revelation. What J. Smith did was "add" to the Word of God...  by offering his own teachings...  The Bible exposes and condemns these false prophets... Gal 1:8-9 and Rev 22:18 proves that nothing can be add to the Scriptures...



Um...uhhh...does it mention anywhere in that king james version about taking away verses?

Just asking.


----------



## PJason (Dec 26, 2008)

Big10point said:


> when i was catholic



And when was that?


----------



## Big10point (Dec 26, 2008)

PJason said:


> And when was that?



i converted to Catholicism when i was 24 and got out at 34...  what difference does it make...?  1999... yall are very strange.


----------



## dawg2 (Dec 28, 2008)

Free Willie said:


> Um...uhhh...does it mention anywhere in that king james version about taking away verses?
> Just asking.



...still waiting.......................................................


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2008)

I can feel the blood boiling through the monitor.



Satan, laughing, spreads his wings........


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2008)

pedrolamento said:


> Get a gun, a motorcycle, a hobby, anything, but get a life.
> If we all lived by the written virtues held sacred by almost any religious faith, we could all worry about our own salvation, live a life of kindness and charity and get on with living and loving.



They don't want peaceful co-existence.  They want piety.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 29, 2008)

Okay...I've been sitting on the sidelines for a little bit...been busy...didn't want to get into more trouble on this thread, so I gave it a break.  But...like a moth to a light....I couldn't stay away forever.

I've got a question...or maybe more of a request.

Can one of the Mormons on the board post the book of 2nd John on here out of their Bible translation?  I know what my NAS says, but I'm curious to see what the Mormon Translation says.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 29, 2008)

So is this like; a man judging other men based on books translated by men many many times over thousands of years from their original transcripts to fit the needs of those men at the time??


----------



## Jeffriesw (Dec 29, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> I can feel the blood boiling through the monitor.
> 
> 
> 
> Satan, laughing, spreads his wings........




War Pigs, I haven't heard that in years.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2008)

Swamp Runner said:


> War Pigs, I haven't heard that in years.



It jams


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2008)

scooter1 said:


> So is this like; a man judging other men based on books translated by men many many times over thousands of years from their original transcripts to fit the needs of those men at the time??



I think that about sums it up.


----------



## farmasis (Dec 29, 2008)

scooter1 said:


> So is this like; a man judging other men based on books translated by men many many times over thousands of years from their original transcripts to fit the needs of those men at the time??


 
God can save us despite our religions, not because of them.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 29, 2008)

scooter1 said:


> So is this like; a man judging other men based on books translated by men many many times over thousands of years from their original transcripts to fit the needs of those men at the time??



Nope.  Not man judging...not based on manuscripts translated many many many times over.

So, let me go into it further...why do I say not man judging.  It is the Bible/God that is doing the judging.

Not based on manuscripts translated many many times over.  Why, we have the text in its original language, thanks to archeological finds.  Since it really isn't the OT in question, the NT has documents that go back to the mid 100s AD.   So you go to that document, translate into English and you have the Bible.  Sure, some translations are slightly different, but overwhemingly, they are the same.

Think of it this way, how much as the US Constitution changed since it was written 225 years ago?  Not the enforcement of the constitution, but the actual words on the page?


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 29, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope.  Not man judging...not based on manuscripts translated many many many times over.
> 
> So, let me go into it further...why do I say not man judging.  It is the Bible/God that is doing the judging.
> 
> ...



but the Constitution wasn't passed down for hundreds of years as an oral tradition, which we all know is subject to error in its retelling.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 29, 2008)

ambush80 said:


> but the Constitution wasn't passed down for hundreds of years as an oral tradition, which we all know is subject to error in its retelling.



The NT wasn't passed down in oral tradition....and as far as Mormonism goes (trying to stay true to the thread), the OT at the time of Christ was perfect.  By this time, it was no longer oral tradition, but written documents.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 29, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Nope.  Not man judging...not based on manuscripts translated many many many times over.
> 
> So, let me go into it further...why do I say not man judging.  It is the Bible/God that is doing the judging.
> 
> ...



The U.S. Constitution was not God's word.

Nor did Jesus try to convert all of those he encountered to Judaism. Remember the prostitute that was being stoned?

Did he tell her to believe in him or forever face the pits of hades, or did he tell her, now you must become of the Jewish faith, or instead did he tell her, "Go and sin no more"? 

Never questioning her faith, doctrine or origin of beliefs.


----------



## farmasis (Dec 29, 2008)

scooter1 said:


> Nor did Jesus try to convert all of those he encountered to Judaism.


 
I don't know a single person he tried to convert to Judaism.



> Remember the prostitute that was being stoned?


 
No, but I do remember an adultereress.



> Did he tell her to believe in him or forever face the pits of hades, or did he tell her, now you must become of the Jewish faith, or instead did he tell her, "Go and sin no more"?
> 
> Never questioning her faith, doctrine or origin of beliefs.


 
The woman was a Jew. She had to abide by Jewish law. The law said she must follow God's commandments to be reconciled to God. She broke one. She deserved punishment. Only God could have pardoned her. He did.

Unless you are a Jew that lived before Jesus's death, you have a different dispensation. You must be born again. All people now , will be judged under grace if you believe in Jesus, or will be judged by the law.

You cannot keep the law.

Not much a choice.


----------



## Leddyman (Dec 30, 2008)

hawglips said:


> R not.
> 
> I do my best to follow all of Christ's teachings, in spite of those on here who try to convince me that it isn't necessary.
> 
> "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."




Do you believe Jesus was a created being?  Or does He have existence as an attribute? (is He eternal in the past as well as in the future?)


----------



## Banjo (Dec 30, 2008)

> Unless you are a Jew that lived before Jesus's death, you have a different dispensation.



Arggghhh....God never changes...neither does the way of salvation.  Those who lived BEFORE Christ came in the flesh were saved by FAITH in the Messiah to come...(Remember Hebrews 11)....That is why you had the righteous waiting on His birth:

Simeon:
29﻿ “Master, now you are dismissing your servant﻿h﻿ in peace, according to your word;
﻿30﻿ for my eyes have seen your salvation,
﻿31﻿ which you have prepared in the presence of all peoples,
﻿32﻿ a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.” 

Anna:

There was also a prophet, Anna the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, ﻿37﻿ then as a widow to the age of eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped there with fasting and prayer night and day. ﻿38﻿ At that moment she came, and began to praise God and to speak about the child to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Arggghhh....God never changes...neither does the way of salvation.  Those who lived BEFORE Christ came in the flesh were saved by FAITH in the Messiah to come...(Remember Hebrews 11)....That is why you had the righteous waiting on His birth:
> 
> Simeon:
> 29ï»¿ “Master, now you are dismissing your servantï»¿hï»¿ in peace, according to your word;
> ...





Cmon Banjo...let's keep this on-topic.  Btw, did you get any pigs over Christmas at your Turkey haven down in Florida?


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 30, 2008)

scooter1 said:


> The U.S. Constitution was not God's word.


Amen to that....and just think of the ends that mankind has gone to in-order to keep it authentic.  Now if man will do this for a man-made document, just think of what he'll do for God's Word.



			
				scooter1 said:
			
		

> Nor did Jesus try to convert all of those he encountered to Judaism. Remember the prostitute that was being stoned?
> 
> Did he tell her to believe in him or forever face the pits of hades, or did he tell her, now you must become of the Jewish faith, or instead did he tell her, "Go and sin no more"?
> 
> Never questioning her faith, doctrine or origin of beliefs.


Are you comparing us on this board to Jesus?  As far as us questioning eachothers faith, doctrine and beliefs?  

Jesus is God...He is all-knowing.  There is no reason for God to question anyone's faith/doctrine/beliefs.  He already knows it all.

Now you and I, on the other hand....are finite and do not know anyone's thoughts but our own.  We must test our faith to know that it is real.  That is what I John is.  It is a testing of your faith to make sure you know and have assurance of salvation.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 30, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I've got a question...or maybe more of a request.
> 
> Can one of the Mormons on the board post the book of 2nd John on here out of their Bible translation?  I know what my NAS says, but I'm curious to see what the Mormon Translation says.



Anyone?  Anyone?


----------



## Banjo (Dec 30, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Cmon Banjo...let's keep this on-topic.  Btw, did you get any pigs over Christmas at your Turkey haven down in Florida?



I'm sorry.....I just can't keep my fingers from responding.

I missed...this old gray mare just ain't what she used to be.  I will have many more chances as we have spotted two more sounders, each with at least 10 piglets in them....  My dad is mixing up the corn with grape koolaid as we speak...

Death to all feral pigs...

While hog hunting one day....40+ turkeys walked by just like a parade...they were purring....and it was so loud I couldn't hear anything else until they passed.  I thought of Huntin....and smiled.  

I hope your family had a great Christmas.

O.k.  O.k. back ON TOPIC....


----------



## farmasis (Dec 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


> Arggghhh....God never changes...neither does the way of salvation. Those who lived BEFORE Christ came in the flesh were saved by FAITH in the Messiah to come...(Remember Hebrews 11)....That is why you had the righteous waiting on His birth:
> 
> Simeon:
> 29ï»¿ “Master, now you are dismissing your servantï»¿hï»¿ in peace, according to your word;
> ...


 
God doesn't change but most definately salvation has changed and sometimes he changes his mind. He decided to not destroy the world again with water. He decided to blind the Jews and to bring them back to him through jealousy by offering salvation to the gentiles. 

The covenant has been changed by grace. Grace replaces law.

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as _being_ from ourselves, but our sufficiency _is_ from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit;<SUP>[a]</SUP> for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. (2 Cor 3)

31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day _that_ I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,<SUP>[a]</SUP> says the LORD. 33 But this _is_ the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”  (Jer 31)

 1 For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for you Gentiles— 2 if indeed you have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you, 3 how that by revelation He made known to me the mystery (as I have briefly written already, 4 by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ), 5 which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to His holy apostles and prophets: 6 that the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, of the same body, and partakers of His promise in Christ through the gospel, 7 of which I became a minister according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effective working of His power. (Eph 3)


----------



## Banjo (Dec 30, 2008)

> Grace replaces law.



No. 

"Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill.  For I assure you:  Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished.  

Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven.  But whoever practices and teaches these commandments will be called great in the kingdom of heaven..."

Which commandments?  The Law.

Go ahead Rj....


----------



## farmasis (Dec 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


> No.
> 
> "Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfill. For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished.
> 
> ...


 

Yes, Jesus fulfilled the law. The law is not gone and if you are not saved by grace, you will be judged by it. We are not free from the law through grace either. We are to keep it. What has been fulfilled, it the penalty of the law.

5So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.<SUP>[c]</SUP> (Romans 11)

You are correct Grace does not replace the law, it is in full effect. However, the penalty is replaced through propitiation. Therefore salvation through adhereance of the law is replaced by grace.


----------



## Banjo (Dec 30, 2008)

> The covenant has been changed by grace. Grace replaces law.





> We are not free from the law through grace either. We are to keep it.


----------



## farmasis (Dec 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


>


 



			
				farmasis said:
			
		

> You are correct Grace does not replace the law, it is in full effect. However, the penalty is replaced through propitiation. Therefore salvation through adhereance of the law is replaced by grace.


----------



## Leddyman (Dec 30, 2008)

Banjo said:


>



Excuse me but I believe the covenant was not changed but abolished.  Then replaced by a new covenant.  

Salvation has not changed either.  No one was ever saved by the law.  If people were saved in the OT they were saved the same way people are saved now.  "Abraham rejoiced to see my day and did"  Faith in God's promised savior resulting in imputed righteousness and forgiveness of sins.


----------



## 1BigBuckDown (Dec 30, 2008)

ALLBEEF said:


> I can answer that: NO - Christ is God's son



nuff said....  cult!


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Can one of the Mormons on the board post the book of 2nd John on here out of their Bible translation?  I know what my NAS says, but I'm curious to see what the Mormon Translation says.





rjcruiser said:


> Anyone?  Anyone?



I'll make it big and bold and see if that helps.

Can one of the Mormons on the board post the book of 2nd John on here out of their Bible translation?  I know what my NAS says, but I'm curious to see what the Mormon Translation says.  Thanks.


----------



## olcowman (Dec 31, 2008)

hawglips said:


> It's not a rendition of the Bible at all, but a completely different account of revelations and history from a different part of the house of Israel.
> 
> But it records many of the same teachings, and gives a second perspective on things.
> 
> That comes in very handy when questions come up on things like "is baptism necessary for salvation."



I am dragging this from a ways back but a simple explanation concerning the mormon book, at least the best I have ever heard was "Jesus the Western". It's a pretty good read if you enjoy fiction.

Ya'll are wasting your time argunig with a bunch of mormons anyway. A big part of their current "doctrine" or teaching emphasizes their public relations and they spend a great deal of time learning how to answer some of the real poignant questions concerning some of the more questionable practices and ominous history related to the church and it's founders. They are especially good at misdirection and just totally glossing over (or ignoring) alot of the stuff that makes them uneasy.

Go ahead and jump on....I am not just blowing smoke here or talking about something 'I heard' here. I have had it shoved down my throat and by the grace of God I had enough sense to see for myself. I can make a bunch of lds missionaries cry if they make me mad enough! LOL

I don't hate them, I feel sorry for them and I have some good friends in the church who still 'hold out hope for me'. (They claim/threaten to baptize me after I am dead, and I done let them know I'll kick their hind ends in the afterlife even if I have steal a ufo and fly to their planet and sneak in the backdoor. LOL) But deep down I also know how mysterious they can be and with such a "rich" history like that behind the lds group, well being forthright ain't gonna help you convert any new members. I suggest anyone considering hitching up with this outfit do a google search and intently study up on some lds history, some background on JSmith, BYoung, and lds leaders past and present. Then spend some time really analyzing the doctrine and beliefs. They are sincere in their devotion, and have some really good people that are active within the church, but there is some really interesting facets to their "system" that just can't be ignored.

When you put it all together, the history, the founders, the interpretations...well...it's a good story anyhow. I wonder why mormon's don't still look at rocks dropped in their hats for guidance and wisdom? (and to find buried treasure!) It was a favorite of their numero uno Smith and what led to the whole "angel in the woods" incident in NY.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 31, 2008)

Leddyman said:


> Do you believe Jesus was a created being?  Or does He have existence as an attribute? (is He eternal in the past as well as in the future?)



This was the question that spawned the three-in-one doctrine initiated by the Nicene Council.

Jesus' body was created like ours was.  Jesus was the Creator of this world and the Word.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 31, 2008)

Free Willie said:


> I'm not quite following your statement there. I'm not casting stones. I am stating fact.



You are not stating fact.

You are parroting worn-out distorted half-truths and full fledged lies, and pretending you know what you are talking about, while casting stones at those you don't know anything about.



> If I get angry, it is because of my KNOWLEDGE of Christianity, not my ignorance of it. I HAVE sought wisdom and understanding of your cult and that is why I am totally, 100% against everything Joseph Smith has sold to people.
> 
> Your founder was a criminal. He was a con artist. He wrote the book of mormon to enrich himself and his family. You speak of the 11 witnesses. They were his like minded relatives and buddies. No surprise there. No trace of the gold tablets he translated. You have been fooled by Satan himself.



Once again, your ignorance and eagerness to cast stones in that ignorance speaks volumes about your "knowledge" and your discipleship.  

Willie, to put it bluntly, if your posts here reflect what it means to be a "Christian" in your view, I'm very glad you don't consider me to be one.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 31, 2008)

Big10point said:


> R too...
> 
> "All" of Christ's teachings are found in the KJ Bible, NOT in the writings of Smith and Young...  There has been no new revelation since John wrote Revelation. What J. Smith did was "add" to the Word of God...  by offering his own teachings...  The Bible exposes and condemns these false prophets... Gal 1:8-9 and Rev 22:18 proves that nothing can be add to the Scriptures...



10 point, are you saying that everything written after Revelations is not true scripture?

Maybe you should look into the chronology of the various books before you repeat the anti-Mormon misinformation you've been fed by ill-meaning miscreants.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll make it big and bold and see if that helps.
> 
> Can one of the Mormons on the board post the book of 2nd John on here out of their Bible translation?  I know what my NAS says, but I'm curious to see what the Mormon Translation says.  Thanks.



I guess you consider this anti-Mormon thread to be a one-way street in terms of who has to answer questions and who doesn't?

Please answer the questions asked of you in post #109.


----------



## Big10point (Dec 31, 2008)

hawglips said:


> 10 point, are you saying that everything written after Revelations is not true scripture?
> 
> Maybe you should look into the chronology of the various books before you repeat the anti-Mormon misinformation you've been fed by ill-meaning miscreants.



True Scripture? as in the Bible, the INSPIRED Word of God? If that is what you're talking about then YES, there has not been 1 word added to it (by God) since Revelation... Sure anyone, can go out and write a "Christian" book but that does not make it "inspired" or part of the Bible.  The Bible is closed and it cannot be added to, by anyone. Over, done with...  John wrote that last words. No more inspired writings from God... just evil men... creating false jesus' making themselves false prophets...  Gal 1:8, 9 and Rev 22:18...  is clear... i am sorry the Truth bothers you.


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 31, 2008)

hawglips said:


> I guess you consider this anti-Mormon thread to be a one-way street in terms of who has to answer questions and who doesn't?
> 
> Please answer the questions asked of you in post #109.


Nope....not a one way street.  I thought they had been answered, but apparently not.  Here you go.  



hawglips said:


> You read one quote by McConkie that said Jesus was born of the Father in the natural way.  But, when you were looking for an out on the lost books point, you said not all things apostles write are necessarily inspired.
> 
> So, which is it?  Which standard are you holding us to on this point?  I need to know so I'll know whether to give McConkie a pass or not.



Not sure I follow you.  Yup...McConkie is contradicting the teachings of the Bible.  He is considered a Mormon Theologian.  Your main defense is that the majority of people talking about Mormonism don't know it.  I'd consider McConkie as someone who knows Mormonism and his views are contrary to the Bible.  So, do you side with your Mormon Theologian or the Bible?

Of course not all things written by the apostles were inspired.  Do you think that Paul wrote other letters besides the epistles?  Do you think he wrote a letter to his mother?  Of course that isn't inspired.  What is your point?  I do believe that he didn't write anything contrary to the Bible or to the doctrine that was taught by Christ.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> And you showed quotes by BY and JS that said Jesus was not "begotten" by the Holy Ghost.  But the Bible doesn't say that he was either.  The Bible tells us what the angel said to Joseph when he was afraid Mary had been fornicating, by saying "that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."  And the Book of Mormon says virtually the same thing, in the passages I showed you, as well as in Alma chapter 7.
> 
> Do you claim to know exactly how this conception was accomplished?
> 
> If so, please educate me.



I guess I don't know what the meaning of begot is.  Begot and concieved are synonyms.



			
				hawglips said:
			
		

> And please, go ahead and be very clear here, since you are taking a hard stance against what other's have said about it.
> 
> 
> So, did the Holy Ghost impregnate her like a man impregnates a woman?  How was it accomplished?


No, the Holy Ghost did not impregnate her like a man impregnates a woman.  That would mean she would not have had a virgin birth.  (Dawg2, I guess here's another difference between Mormons and Catholics)

It was accomplished supernaturally.  Somehow, God placed Jesus inside of Mary's womb.  How He did it?  I don't know.  But it says it in the Bible, so I believe it.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> But let's back up.  The Bible does NOT say that Christ is begotten of the Holy Ghost.  It says that Christ is the Only Begotten of the FATHER, and that he is the Father's beloved Son.  So, if you are going to hold others to one semantic standard, please hold yourself to that same semantic standard as well.
> 
> The most detail the Bible gives us is in Luke 1 where it says, "35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
> 
> So, what exactly happened when the Holy Ghost came upon her, and the power of the Highest "overshadowed" her?  That caused Jesus to be called the "Son of God?"



The Bible does say that the Holy Ghost was the reason Mary was pregnant.  The Holy Ghost is God.  God the Father is God.  Jesus is God.  

Jesus was called the Son of God because that is what God said.  Again, see Luke 1:35.  I don't need anymore reason as to why Jesus should be called the Son of God.  What happened when the Holy Ghost came upon her?  Not sure of what all happened, but I know that she conceived a child and that she was a virgin before this happened and she was a virgin after it happened.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> Do you know the details?  If not, then maybe you ought to change subjects to something you know the details you are bashing others about.



The Bible doesn't give all of the details of everything that happened.  Does that mean I shouldn't discuss the Bible?  Please, it tells us that the Holy Spirit was the reason for Mary bearing Jesus.  Call it what you want...conceived or begot.  Both are the same.



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> And, are you not going to forgive Mcconkie here?  After all, you don't believe everything apostles wrote should be considered inspired of God.  Right?



How does what the apostles wrote have anything to do with McConkie?  Nothing McConkie wrote was inspired by God.  What he wrote, what Smith wrote, what Young wrote, are all in disagreement with the Bible.  One little thing, I might be able to say, you've got an out of line Mormon on your hands, but three of them?



			
				Hawglips said:
			
		

> Which version?
> 
> Since they are all so different, this would be good to know.


They are different? Other than some thous and thees, they read the same to me.



Phew....that was a lot of questions.  Hope I answered them to your expectations.  Let me know if I didn't and I'll try and provide further explanation to you.

Now...can you please post your translation of the book of 2nd John?


----------



## rjcruiser (Dec 31, 2008)

hawglips said:


> 10 point, are you saying that everything written after Revelations is not true scripture?
> 
> Maybe you should look into the chronology of the various books before you repeat the anti-Mormon misinformation you've been fed by ill-meaning miscreants.



Just another question on this post.  When do you believe that John wrote the book of Revelation?  That might answer some of the issues you've got with 10 point.


----------



## Big10point (Dec 31, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Just another question on this post.  When do you believe that John wrote the book of Revelation?  That might answer some of the issues you've got with 10 point.



rj,
thats Big10point...


----------



## fivesolas (Dec 31, 2008)

200 posts...I am not reading them all, but one comment. I have remarked to my mormon friends that I might consider them Christians when they consider me mormon. lol


----------



## TaxPhd (Jan 1, 2009)

<SNIP>



rjcruiser said:


> Now...can you please post your translation of the book of 2nd John?



The Joseph Smith translation of the Bible was never published by the mormon church, and the mormons don't use it.  They use the KJV, which has some footnote notations of Joseph Smith translation changes.  No changes were made to 2nd John.

rjcruiser, you are going to have a difficult time getting straight, truthful answers to questions about mormon doctrine.  It is continually morphing and changing.  There is a HUGE number of substantial changes in their doctrine.  When something is proven incorrect, or the weirdness starts to see the light of day, it changes.  mormons call this "continuing revelation through modern day profits."  I call it a load of crap.

I spent 25 years in the mormon cult, before I was able to see my way out.  I served a mission, was married in a mormon temple, etc., etc.  I will tell you, or anyone who is curious, anything that you want to know about the mormon church, to the best of my ability.  Feel free to ask in this thread, or start another.



Scott


----------



## rjcruiser (Jan 2, 2009)

TaxPhd; said:
			
		

> rjcruiser, you are going to have a difficult time getting straight, truthful answers to questions about mormon doctrine.  It is continually morphing and changing.  There is a HUGE number of substantial changes in their doctrine.  When something is proven incorrect, or the weirdness starts to see the light of day, it changes.  mormons call this "continuing revelation through modern day profits."  I call it a load of crap.



I know I'm going to have a difficult time getting straight truthful answers.  But I'm still going to ask.  Based on your response...there was nothing changed in 2nd John.  I'd still like a Mormon to post what their Bible reads in 2nd John.  Just want to see if it has any differences in it from my Bible.


----------



## TaxPhd (Jan 2, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I know I'm going to have a difficult time getting straight truthful answers.  But I'm still going to ask.  Based on your response...there was nothing changed in 2nd John.  I'd still like a Mormon to post what their Bible reads in 2nd John.  Just want to see if it has any differences in it from my Bible.



I'm no longer mormon, but here you go, from a mormon edition of the King James Bible:



> The Second Epistle of John
> 
> 
> Chapter 1
> ...


----------



## rjcruiser (Jan 2, 2009)

TaxPhd said:


> I'm no longer mormon, but here you go, from a mormon edition of the King James Bible:



Thanks...


I'm trying to get at something here...mainly what John is talking about in vs 7-11.

What is the doctrine of Christ?  That He is fully God and fully Man?  That Christ is all we need?  And that if anyone teaches other than this, they are an antichrist?

Interesting that most religions differ from Christianity (Protestantism to be more specific) on the doctrine of Christ.  

How does a Mormon (and other religions that believe in the Bible) read this passage and justify thier beliefs?


----------



## gtparts (Jan 2, 2009)

Smoke? Mirrors? Misdirection? Slight-of-hand? Obfuscation? Two-stepping? 

It is darn near impossible to understand someone who covers their mouth and quickly mumbles on this forum. But, man , do they like to try!!!


----------



## pigpen1 (Jan 2, 2009)

I just though I would add a little humor, so the Mormons that believe in multiple wives is the same doctrine most modern baptists, Pentecostal, Methodist, Presbyterian,and catholic etc. have, the only difference is the Mormons have them all at one time.....


----------



## hawglips (Jan 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Not sure I follow you.  Yup...McConkie is contradicting the teachings of the Bible.
> 
> 
> 
> He is considered a Mormon Theologian.  Your main defense is that the majority of people talking about Mormonism don't know it.  I'd consider McConkie as someone who knows Mormonism and his views are contrary to the Bible.  So, do you side with your Mormon Theologian or the Bible?



Wait a minute, you said, "Somehow, God placed Jesus inside of Mary's womb.  How He did it?  I don't know.  But it says it in the Bible, so I believe it."

So, you don't know how it was done, the Bible doesn't say how it was done, but yet you cast stones at someone who suggests how it was done?

Is that a smart or Christian thing to do?




rjcruiser said:


> Of course not all things written by the apostles were inspired.  Do you think that Paul wrote other letters besides the epistles?  Do you think he wrote a letter to his mother?  Of course that isn't inspired.  What is your point?  I do believe that he didn't write anything contrary to the Bible or to the doctrine that was taught by Christ.



I'm just making sure we don't have a double standard here.



rjcruiser said:


> No, the Holy Ghost did not impregnate her like a man impregnates a woman.  That would mean she would not have had a virgin birth.  (Dawg2, I guess here's another difference between Mormons and Catholics)
> 
> It was accomplished supernaturally.  Somehow, God placed Jesus inside of Mary's womb.  How He did it?  I don't know.  But it says it in the Bible, so I believe it.
> 
> The Bible does say that the Holy Ghost was the reason Mary was pregnant.  The Holy Ghost is God.  God the Father is God.  Jesus is God.



So ruled the Nicene Council.  



rjcruiser said:


> Jesus was called the Son of God because that is what God said.  Again, see Luke 1:35.  I don't need anymore reason as to why Jesus should be called the Son of God.  What happened when the Holy Ghost came upon her?  Not sure of what all happened, but I know that she conceived a child and that she was a virgin before this happened and she was a virgin after it happened.



I am glad you have clarified that you have no idea how it happened, and that the Bible (and the Book of Mormon) doesn't give us the details. 



rjcruiser said:


> The Bible doesn't give all of the details of everything that happened.  Does that mean I shouldn't discuss the Bible?  Please, it tells us that the Holy Spirit was the reason for Mary bearing Jesus.  Call it what you want...conceived or begot.  Both are the same.



I wonder why the Bible refers to Jesus as the Only Begotten of the Father.



rjcruiser said:


> How does what the apostles wrote have anything to do with McConkie?  Nothing McConkie wrote was inspired by God.  What he wrote, what Smith wrote, what Young wrote, are all in disagreement with the Bible.  One little thing, I might be able to say, you've got an out of line Mormon on your hands, but three of them?



So, the Bible doesn't say Jesus was begotten by the Holy Ghost -- but you do.  

And now you condemn JS and BY for supporting what the Bible says, while you change what it says, and yet claim to be the one who is correct?

You're asking me to take your word over the Bible, JS's and BY's on this?

Cruiser, you ask too much of me.




rjcruiser said:


> Now...can you please post your translation of the book of 2nd John?



But you haven't answered the question about where the Book of Mormon contradicts the Bible.  You insisted over and over again that it did, but yet haven't shown any instance of that.

I asked you if we now agreed that there were no differences in doctrine, and you have yet to answer that.

So, are we both on the same page on that point?  Do you acknowledge that you mispoke on that?  I assume you so since you haven't shown anything to support your claim.


----------



## hawglips (Jan 6, 2009)

TaxPhd said:


> .
> 
> rjcruiser, you are going to have a difficult time getting straight, truthful answers to questions about mormon doctrine.  It is continually morphing and changing.  There is a HUGE number of substantial changes in their doctrine.  When something is proven incorrect, or the weirdness starts to see the light of day, it changes.  mormons call this "continuing revelation through modern day profits."  I call it a load of crap.
> 
> ...



Phd,

Will you tesify to the good people reading this thread regarding your belief and conviction that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer?   And that you are His disciple and seek to do His will?

And in the Trinity, as taught by the Nicene Council?

And in your belief in the Bible as literally the word of God, and as the only word of God?

And that Christianity as determined by the Nicene Council is the only true religion?


----------



## hawglips (Jan 6, 2009)

> 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.



Confessing and declaring a testimony of Jesus Christ is a requirement to join the Mormon church and for members of the church to participate in the temple worship.



> 8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
> 
> 9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.



I know a lot of people who confess with their mouth that they believe in Christ, but yet they do not abide in his doctrine nor think it necessary to do His will.



> 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
> 
> 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.



I think lots of people draw near to God with their mouths, but their hearts are far from Him.   I think anybody who preaches something other than faith in Jesus Christ, repentence and abiding in His doctrine are anti-Christ.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jan 6, 2009)

In response to your post in #209.

I've pointed out scriptures that state that the Holy Spirit begot Jesus.  You've also showed that Jesus was the only begotten of the Father.  Sounds like the Trinity to me (Holy Ghost, Father, and Son)   This is what the Bible teaches and is contrary to McConkie, JS and BY.

You ask for differences in doctrine.  I'll give the biggest difference in doctrine and it has to do with the Doctrine of Christ.  Mormon's don't believe that Christ is God.  That is why I asked you to post 2nd John.  It states how if you don't believe in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible, you've missed the boat.

Are their Protestants, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists that don't believe in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible...sure.  But the basis of these Faith's teach that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but is God.  Mormonism along with JWs do not.  That is the problem with both of these religions.  They don't believe that Jesus is God.  If you don't believe that Jesus is God, 2nd John tells you the answer to the question I originally posed in this thread.


----------



## TaxPhd (Jan 6, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Phd,
> 
> Will you tesify to the good people reading this thread regarding your belief and conviction that Jesus Christ is our Savior and Redeemer?   And that you are His disciple and seek to do His will?
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what you are getting at, but why would I testify as to any of those things?



Scott


----------



## dawg2 (Jan 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> ....You ask for differences in doctrine.  I'll give the biggest difference in doctrine and it has to do with the Doctrine of Christ.  Mormon's don't believe that Christ is God.  That is why I asked you to post 2nd John.  It states how if you don't believe in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible, you've missed the boat.
> 
> .... ....



SO is that true or not?  And if he is not God, then who is he?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jan 6, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> SO is that true or not?  And if he is not God, then who is he?



Hmmm...after 214 posts you'd think that would have come out.  Maybe it did, I can't remember.

I'll take a stab at answering...Mormon's, please correct me if I'm wrong.

He is a created being....He is the Son of God, but not God.  He is the brother of Lucifer the devil.


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## gtparts (Jan 6, 2009)

rj,

You're catching on. You have to find out what they say they believe. Then you have to find out what they mean when they say what they say. If you don't ask, they won't tell a lot of what they mean.


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## TaxPhd (Jan 6, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...after 214 posts you'd think that would have come out.  Maybe it did, I can't remember.
> 
> I'll take a stab at answering...Mormon's, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> He is a created being....He is the Son of God, but not God.  He is the brother of Lucifer the devil.



Now you are starting to get it.  Mormon doctrine is quite nebulous, it is very difficult to pin down, and it can change on a whim.



Scott


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## hawglips (Jan 8, 2009)

TaxPhd said:


> I'm not sure what you are getting at, but why would I testify as to any of those things?
> Scott



Just as I figured.


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## TaxPhd (Jan 8, 2009)

hawglips said:


> Just as I figured.



What's your point?


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## hawglips (Jan 8, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I've pointed out scriptures that state that the Holy Spirit begot Jesus.  You've also showed that Jesus was the only begotten of the Father.  Sounds like the Trinity to me (Holy Ghost, Father, and Son)   This is what the Bible teaches and is contrary to McConkie, JS and BY.



The Trinity is a made-up word created in Nicea.  

There is no scripture that says the Holy Ghost begat Jesus.  You made that up.



rjcruiser said:


> You ask for differences in doctrine.  I'll give the biggest difference in doctrine and it has to do with the Doctrine of Christ.  Mormon's don't believe that Christ is God.  That is why I asked you to post 2nd John.  It states how if you don't believe in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible, you've missed the boat.



No, I didn't ask for differences in doctrine. I asked you to acknowledge that you were completely wrong about your repeated claim regarding differences in doctrine between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.

But, you apparently are too proud to admit that.  It seems you are more comfortable parroting the false witness you hear from those who feel threatened by the Mormon church.

And Mormons believe 100% in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible.  But it appears to me that you must not.  Instead, it appears to me that you believe in the doctrine of Christ as created by the councel of Nicea.



rjcruiser said:


> Are their Protestants, Baptists, Catholics, Methodists that don't believe in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible...sure.



If by "doctrine of Christ" you mean his physical characteristics, I'd suggest that most of the above believe in the correct "doctrine of Christ" though their church's official position is not Biblical.  I'd bet that most rank and file believe in the clear Biblical teaching that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two separate entities, but one in purpose, unlike their church's official Nicean (not Biblical) doctrine.




rjcruiser said:


> But the basis of these Faith's teach that Jesus is not only the Son of God, but is God.  Mormonism along with JWs do not.



Once again, you are wrong.  Cruiser, you really should be careful where you get your information.  Of course, only if you really want to know. If you just want to cast stones, then keep right on getting your erroneous distortions from those who feel threatened by the Mormons.

Read the Gospel of John, for example.  That's what Mormons believe about Jesus Christ.  Unfortunately, most other sects officially don't believe those things.



rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...after 214 posts you'd think that would have come out.  Maybe it did, I can't remember.
> 
> I'll take a stab at answering...Mormon's, please correct me if I'm wrong.
> 
> He is a created being....He is the Son of God, but not God.  He is the brother of Lucifer the devil.



Yes, he is God.   He is the Creator.

I guess you skipped posts #31 and #194, as well as the posts where I ask you questions.  

Yes, Mormons do NOT believe in the Trinity as described by the council of Nicea.  That is not Biblical.  That is a god created by a political committee.

The Bible teaches a Christ who created the world and the heavens.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who was the God of Jacob, Abraham, and Isaac.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who spoke to Moses through a burning bush, and on Mt. Sinai.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who parted the Red Sea, and the River Jordan, and fed the children of Israel with manna in the wilderness.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a never-changing God of love who works through prophets.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches the Jehovah, the great I Am.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in. The Bible teaches a Christ who was born of the virgin Mary, suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane for our sins, and was crucified.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who was introduced by the Father as His Beloved Son, and whom the Holy Ghost descended on in the form of a dove.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who prayed to His Father in Heaven.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who instructed us to follow Him, and to do the will of our Father in Heaven.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in. The Bible teaches a Christ who was placed in a tomb and rose on the third day.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who was resurrected, and ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who appeared to Saul of Tarsus on the road to Damascus.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.  The Bible teaches a Christ who will judge us according to our deeds at the last day.  That is the Christ Mormons believe in.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 10, 2009)

hawglips said:


> The Trinity is a made-up word created in Nicea.
> 
> There is no scripture that says the Holy Ghost begat Jesus.  You made that up.



Both Matthew and Luke clearly state that Jesus was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" (Mat 1:18,20; Luke 1:35) not by the Father.  The clear teaching of the Bible is that Mary was a virgin when she gave birth (Mat 1:23).  The normal meaning of virgin does not allow for God the Father to have in any way impregnated Mary.

I feel like this is going around in circles.   The above is quoted from a post I had on page number two.



			
				hawglips said:
			
		

> No, I didn't ask for differences in doctrine. I asked you to acknowledge that you were completely wrong about your repeated claim regarding differences in doctrine between the Book of Mormon and the Bible.



Where does the Mormon religion get their doctrine from?  If there are differences in doctrine between Mormons and Protestants, it has to be fromt the differences between the book of mormon and the Bible.



			
				hawglips said:
			
		

> And Mormons believe 100% in the doctrine of Christ as taught in the Bible.



I'm confused.  You post this big thing about how Christ is God.  But then Allbeef in post #13 said this



			
				Allbeef said:
			
		

> I think you may have misunderstood Hawglips - cause we believe that God, Jesus Christ, & The Holy Ghost are 3 different beings.



I just don't understand how you believe that Christ and God are 3 different beings when Christ said this in John 10 that He and the Father are one.

I guess this will just have to be one of these agree to disagree.


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## hawglips (Jan 12, 2009)

There is no "agree to disagree" here.  There is fact, and there is the lies that those disposed to do evil to the Mormons shamfully spread in an effort to do harm, or to make them feel better about their own faith.

How can one agree to false information?   I can't just sit back and read the lies and distortions and not try to correct them.  You post falsehoods about the Mormon religion, and I'll try to correct them.  



> I just don't understand how you believe that Christ and God are 3 different beings when Christ said this in John 10 that He and the Father are one.



So, are you and I one?  John said that too.  Are you and I and all believers, and Christ and the Father all one?  Christ prayed for us all to be one.  It's an easy concept to understand.

_John 17: 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 
  21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 
  22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: _

It's one in purpose.  It's very clear.

The Bible clearly teaches that Christ and our Father in Heaven are two seperate entities.  And most Christians naturally believe this, though their sect's official doctrine teaches the Nicea compromise notion of God's nature.   

Cruiser, how many time did Christ pray to the Father in the New Testament? 

What does it mean to be heirs to God and joint-heirs with Christ?

Many, many witnesses have testified that Christ was resurrected and ascended again into heaven -- to sit at the right hand of God.  Stephen saw Him standing at the right hand of God.  And we have modern testimony of this as well.

Christ prayed to his Father in Heaven, he cried out to Him as he was dying on cross, he was announced by His Father in Heaven as he was being baptized by John the Baptist, and he proclaimed over and over again that the Father sent Him, and that the Father loved Him, and that he does the will of His Father.  

The Bible teaches that God so loved the world that He sent His Only Begotten Son.  The Son testified over and over that this is true.  

And yes, the Son is God.  The Father is God.  The Son created the world and all things in it.  He is Jehovah of the Old Testament.  He is the Head of His Church.  We pray to the Father in the name of the Son, as the Son taught us.  The Son prayed to the Father, and did the will of the Father.  The Son will judge us as the last day and reward us according to what we did in this life.  

I love Him.  I have been washed clean in His blood.  I have received a remission of my sins.  I seek to be His disciple.  I seek to obey His commandments.  I encourage all to do the same.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 12, 2009)

So finally...after 222 posts...the main doctrinal differences between Protestants and Mormons come out.

Protestants believe in the Trinity...Mormon's don't.

Agree to disagree?  Maybe that isn't the best terminology.  But you as a Mormon will not convince me otherwise...that the Trinity does not exist, that Jesus was a created being...that he is not God.

And I, I will not convince you that Jesus is God.  That the Trinity is Biblical doctrine, that Jesus is God and that He was not created, but He has been forever and will always be.

So, I'll finish with this thought to answering my original question.  Are Mormon's Christians?

Well, if you can believe that Jesus was not God, but merely God's Son and be considered a Christian, then yes....Mormon's are Christians.


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## Big7 (Jan 18, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> Um...uhhh...does it mention anywhere in that king james version about taking away verses?
> 
> Just asking.





dawg2 said:


> ...still waiting.......................................................



MeToo...


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## mtnwoman (Jan 18, 2009)

Big7 said:


> MeToo...


Me 3


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## celticfisherman (Jan 18, 2009)

ALLBEEF said:


> I can answer that: NO - Christ is God's son



Nope. Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit are 3 in 1. The Trinity.

Mormons are not Christians no matter how hard they push or the media allows them too. Mormons refer to and believe Christ is an older brother. They also believe that man can become God. 

They are not Christians. That does not mean someone cannot be a mormon and be a great person. I lived for a time in Victor, Idaho and Daniel, WY. Worked with a good many mormons. Good people. But not Christians.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

hawglips said:


> There is no "agree to disagree" here.  There is fact, and there is the lies that those disposed to do evil to the Mormons shamfully spread in an effort to do harm, or to make them feel better about their own faith.
> 
> How can one agree to false information?   I can't just sit back and read the lies and distortions and not try to correct them.  You post falsehoods about the Mormon religion, and I'll try to correct them.
> 
> ...



Excellent reply... I have a question. Hope it is not off topic. What was Joseph Smith before he got to be a Mormon and his friends what were they? Lots of Mormon history looks like Baptish histroy to me? For example christians taking on more than one wife is very Baptish in origin. Was Joseph Smith( his family) a baptist ( congregationist) before Marouni appeared to him? His friends were? Serious? They belonged to some denomination before they formed into a new religion, or church. What were they?

And on a similar note what was (his denomination) the founder of the Johovah's Witness before he became a JW?

I'm betting  these folk were not RC!


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nope. Christ, God, and the Holy Spirit are 3 in 1. The Trinity.
> 
> Mormons are not Christians no matter how hard they push or the media allows them too. Mormons refer to and believe Christ is an older brother. They also believe that man can become God.
> 
> They are not Christians. That does not mean someone cannot be a mormon and be a great person. I lived for a time in Victor, Idaho and Daniel, WY. Worked with a good many mormons. Good people. But not Christians.



They also believe that man can become God. 

So do most christians. Jesus was a man.

Although I don't know what the church's stand is on "man being a God" I can see where from receiving the Holy Spirit that one can become one spirtual flesh with it and I have read here from very devote Methodist that in heaven there will not be an "I", but only worship.


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## celticfisherman (Jan 18, 2009)

Most Christians do not believe Man can become God. Christ was God incarnate in man. Not you becoming God.

That is not what happens when one receives the Holy Spirit. You do not become God.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Most Christians do not believe Man can become God. Christ was God incarnate in man. Not you becoming God.
> 
> That is not what happens when one receives the Holy Spirit. You do not become God.



Did Jesus have free will? 

However, do you know from what religious traditions the founders of the Mormon church  came from?


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## celticfisherman (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes the mormons came out of the stump preachers from the 2nd Great Awakening. There were lots of camp meetings and etc that had no denominational ties. Lots of bad theology came out of this time period.

You would have to ask someone who believes in Free Will. I am a Calvinist... I do not believe in it.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Yes the mormons came out of the stump preachers from the 2nd Great Awakening. There were lots of camp meetings and etc that had no denominational ties. Lots of bad theology came out of this time period.
> 
> You would have to ask someone who believes in Free Will. I am a Calvinist... I do not believe in it.




I had a presbyterian Great Grand Mother, and she is still fresh in my memory as someone who refused to raise a pinky in labour on Sunday, instead she sang hymns and read scripture to my RC  Great Grand Father So we are spiritually related, kind of. However I am, I love the chruch, RC.

We also have this in common. Our spiritual relative were fond of murdering Baptist males, but sparing the females with children, a few hundred yrs ago. In order to keep their spiritual families intact, if my reading of history is correct, the remaining baptish males would marry more than one female for the same reasons the mormons say they did.

Hope this is not boreing you. In many ways the mormon experience, its early history, is a similar copy of early baptist history. 

Peace bros.


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## celticfisherman (Jan 18, 2009)

Not sure I follow this gordon2. Also are you Mormon?

Also really unclear about Baptists being murdered. You may mean the Anabaptists (sp?) but that's different from the Baptist church of today. This was a movement long before the 2nd great awakening.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Not sure I follow this gordon2. Also are you Mormon?
> 
> Also really unclear about Baptists being murdered. You may mean the Anabaptists (sp?) but that's different from the Baptist church of today. This was a movement long before the 2nd great awakening.



Yes I mean the anabaptists. I am not a Mormon, unless you can be one without knowing it.


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## celticfisherman (Jan 19, 2009)

Well. According to them you can be one after your dead so .... We might be some now...

I guess then by RC you mean Roman Catholic. If so it clicked today while rabbit hunting. Don't know why.


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## mattellis2 (Jan 23, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Excellent reply... I have a question. Hope it is not off topic. What was Joseph Smith before he got to be a Mormon and his friends what were they? Lots of Mormon history looks like Baptish histroy to me? For example christians taking on more than one wife is very Baptish in origin. Was Joseph Smith( his family) a baptist ( congregationist) before Marouni appeared to him? His friends were? Serious? They belonged to some denomination before they formed into a new religion, or church. What were they?
> 
> And on a similar note what was (his denomination) the founder of the Johovah's Witness before he became a JW?
> 
> I'm betting  these folk were not RC!



not sure about JW history, but here is Joseph Smith's background and religious history prior to organizing the LDS church.

http://scriptures.lds.org/js_h/1/4#4


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