# Question for you lab folks



## Brushcreek (May 29, 2009)

How old do you normally let your males get before breeding them for the first time? I have heard a lot of different opinions on this and was just wondering what you guys thoughts were


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## browning84 (May 29, 2009)

At a minimum 2 years of age because this is how old they have to be before you can get certain health clearances done such as hips and elbows. But those are not the only test that should be done.


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## NGaHunter (May 29, 2009)

At least 2 years old...as Browning said..its the youngest they can have their hips done.  But then once you have EIC and CNM done and know whether they are affected or a carrier or clear .  Since you asked about a male, it will be a bit longer.  If your male doesn't have any titles why would someone want to use it as a stud?  There are alot of get FC studs out there to breed to.


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## CedarSwampRetrievers (May 30, 2009)

Here is the link to the thread I started
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=291798 

I can tell you that EIC and CNM are more prevalant than most are willing to admit. I have tested 6 for EIC, 1 affected, 2 carriers, two that were not tested, one was affected and his mom at least a carrier...he had collapse episodes, she didn't. 

CNM I have one carrier out of 6 tested. A friend of mine had a CNM affected dog that was about 7 that they lost in the last year.

Carriers of these diseases are healthy dogs...there's no way to tell just by looking and being around them.


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## Brushcreek (May 30, 2009)

Thanks for the info guys. My female turned 2 in december and i'm getting her test done asap so i can breed her when she comes ino heat in just a few months. NGaHunter, just because a dog isn't a field champion doesn't mean you can't breed to him. Maybe i like the traits of my male and i want pups out of him. As long as he's certified then why does it matter?


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## NGaHunter (May 30, 2009)

Your right...what was I thinking, must have been that 1 beer I had clouded up my thinking....I forgot this is Woodys, most up here don't care about good healthy breeding and breeding to improve the breed...You should be able to breed when they are 6 months old, we don't have enough backyard breeding yet.


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## Big Jeep Wrangler (May 30, 2009)

It may just be me but some people dont want a dog to hunt with it. Why pay 700, 800 to a thousand bucks for a pup when all they want it for is a companion. If they breed them to two healthy dogs why not? My two didnt come from hunting background, they came from show, but I wouldnt trade them boys for nothing.


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## NGaHunter (May 30, 2009)

Your right Big Jeep...nothing wrong with breeding two As long as you get all the checks on them.


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## browning84 (May 30, 2009)

as if there werent enough lab puppies already


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## Big Jeep Wrangler (May 31, 2009)

Oh I know it is sad to look at all these lab rescues and see all the dogs people have given up. It is horrible.


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## Brushcreek (May 31, 2009)

browning84 said:


> as if there werent enough lab puppies already



So do you not breed your dogs?

"Your right Big Jeep...nothing wrong with breeding two As long as you get all the checks on them."

That's what i'm saying! If they are both dogs that have been cleared! You don't have to be a smart a. Why would you say that i don't care about good healthy breeding and improving the breed when i just said before that i was getting my female cleared before i breed her and im going to breed her to a healthy male. it just don't have to be a field champion is all im saying. because like Big Jeep said, not everyone wants to pay such a high price for a champion bloodline puppy when they are getting the dog as a companion.


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)

Since you say you care about healthy breeding...can you tell us what test you will have done?  And when you breed what price will your pups be?  Do you own the male and female?  What colors are they?  Foe me there is alot of thought and research that goes into breeding.  My 5 year old lab recieved his first title at 10 months old....but at 3 I had him netured because he show me things that I didn't want to pass along.  Lucy will turn 2 later in June and I will get her hips done..if they come back poor, she will be spade.  Will you spade or netur yours if the hips come back poor?

Your just in Athens, why don't you come out next Saturday and train with us.  We train just up the road from you in Banks County


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

Brushcreek said:


> So do you not breed your dogs?



Yes, I plan to stud my male out, but I have a list of clearances that I will require the female to have done and they must compliment my male but your dog and my dog are not the same animal, I train with him on a daily basis and we prepare not only for hunting season but also for competition and Hunt Test. He has already received his SHR title and will not be bred holding this title; he will at a minimum have his HR and preferably his SH before he is advertised at stud. I will also not be breeding him just so I can get a “replica” of him because I like his tendencies. More than likely the only way I will get one of his puppies is from a repeat breeding that has already proven their abilities. You obviously do not have the betterment of the breed in mind; you are breeding for selfish reasons, because you like your dog and want a replica. Most likely breeding for the reason you are, will not produce the animal you want. I believe firmly that not every pure bred animal deserves to breed, they need to be proven. Unfortunately there are plenty of people out there that are breeding for the exact reason you want to, so instead of helping fill shelters why don’t you go find one of those litters and pick a puppy from two healthy parents, or if you just want a companion go visit a shelter. NGaHunter and I are not saying you must find a Field Champion (FC) because the stud fee will be out of your league, and more than likely they will not sell the seamen to you or allow for natural breeding with your female. But get your dog registered up and prove her at a hunt test and then find a reasonably proven male. Not only do you get to prove your female but you get to have fun doing it.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

browning84 said:


> because the stud fee will be out of your league, and more than likely they will not sell the seamen to you or allow for natural breeding with your female.QUOTE]
> 
> And why wouldn't they if she has been cleared? Like i said above my female just turned 2 and i am having her test done asap.


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

They wouldn’t sell or allow for a natural breeding because of pedigree at a minimum and lack of any training and testing/competition the female has had. It is easy to find a good stud but not as many good females. If I had a FC or AFC stud I would look for one or more of these in a female. At least some derby points, QAA, SHR, JH, HR, SH, HRCH, MH, GRHRCH, or MNH, and all of this backed with a strong pedigree. FC and AFC take a lot of work and a lot of dog, these dogs and their owners want serious females to breed to. Your female does not fit that mold that is just how the cookie crumbles.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> Since you say you care about healthy breeding...can you tell us what test you will have done?  And when you breed what price will your pups be?  Do you own the male and female?  What colors are they?



Like i've said 4 times now my female just turned 2. you cannot have test done until they are 2. therefore i have not been able to test her yet BUT I AM GOING TO!!!!!! and no i do not own a male but i am going to find one that has had all the test done and is 100% healthy. And when i breed them i plan to keep a male to train as my hunting dog. And no, if my female does not clear i will not breed her. I don' tunderstand why you guys have to despise everyone who has a dog and breeds it just because the dogs don't have titles like yours might. I can guarantee i love my pet lab just as much as you do your champion dog.


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

He asked what test you are going to have done, and obviously by your statement you just made you don’t know what you need to have done. FYI EIC and CNM can be tested at anytime because they are blood test and not joint test.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

I talked with my vet about it and she told me to wait until my female was 2 and we would get it all done. I am fairly new to labs so i don't know everything about the testing but i am going to research it and talk to my vet to make sure i get everything done right. I'm not saying i know more than you do but i'm just trying to get some helpful info to make sure i do it right and yall are too stuck on your high horse to help someone out with a simple question.


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

No we are not to on our high horse we listed what you needed done and then suggested that you not breed her because breeding should only be done to better the breed it is you who is stuck thinking that any and every lab or dog deserves to breed and that is not the case. In the wild this is done by only the strong survive and this includes there hunting skills its call survival of the fittest, because these are tame animals altered by humans to get the characteristics they wanted for the breed the original labs were constantly breed to better the breed and maintain strong desired traits. Just by the breed itself labs are very loving animals so if that is what you want there is no need to breed that should be a fairly simple trait to find. You female may actually better the breed but you don’t have the desire to prove that, but hey just stick her in the back yard with the male of your choice and let go at it and just see what happens, good plan thumbs up to you.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

Haha...man you may be the biggest jerk on Woody's! You think what you want about me and my dog but i don't have to put my dog in a competition to prove that she is a quality dog!


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)

Brushcreek said:


> Like i've said 4 times now my female just turned 2. you cannot have test done until they are 2. therefore i have not been able to test her yet BUT I AM GOING TO!!!!!! and no i do not own a male but i am going to find one that has had all the test done and is 100% healthy. And when i breed them i plan to keep a male to train as my hunting dog. And no, if my female does not clear i will not breed her. I don' tunderstand why you guys have to despise everyone who has a dog and breeds it just because the dogs don't have titles like yours might. I can guarantee i love my pet lab just as much as you do your champion dog.



Actually only the hips can't be done until they are 2.  Eyes, EIC and CNM can be done before that age.  All the vet will do is to take x-rays(to send to OFA) Blood(to send Uni of Minn for EIC) and dna swab(to send to france for CNM) and for the eyes you have to go to a specialist(The one I went to was in Athens for Lucy).

We don't despise everyone that breeds theier dog...just the ones that breed their dog with out all the clearences done....I'm sure I can hook you up with someone in Dawsonville that has championship labs that he breeds...Says they have all their clearences but when you look at their AKC web site both sire and Dame is under 2 so they cloudn't of had them done.


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

Brushcreek said:


> Haha...man you may be the biggest jerk on Woody's! You think what you want about me and my dog but i don't have to put my dog in a competition to prove that she is a quality dog!


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

browning84 said:


>



haha...

NGaHunter, if you don't mind i will send you a pm when i get ready to have her checked to get the name and address for the place in Athens.


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)

No problem...you going to come out this Saturday and train with us?


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

No but when i begin training my male i would like to.


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)

Cool...everyone is always welcome


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## hogdawg (Jun 1, 2009)

I may need to come up for that so I can see browning84 and Brushcreek kiss and make up


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)




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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

hogdawg said:


> I may need to come up for that so I can see browning84 and Brushcreek kiss and make up



You will see me run a Wiemarador before you see me kiss and make up with anyone.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 1, 2009)

browning84 said:


> You will see me run a Wiemarador before you see me kiss and make up with anyone.



finally! something we agree upon!


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## hogdawg (Jun 1, 2009)

browning84 said:


> You will see me run a Wiemarador before you see me kiss and make up with anyone.



not even jessicay?


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

correct not even jessicay


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## waterdogs (Jun 1, 2009)

I got word that there may be a eye cert. exam done in Lincolnton Ga sometime in July. If this is correct, it will be hosted by Midlands HRC. No word yet, just heard it at a hunt test.


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## waterdogs (Jun 1, 2009)

I just printed off the form to get Sassy's EIC done. gotta call the vet to draw blood and get it sent off. EIC test can now be done on labs when they have there dew claws removed (first born). check out www.vdl.umn.edu to see what they can do. After that is her hips, elbows, eyes CNM, ect.


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## CedarSwampRetrievers (Jun 1, 2009)

Adults can also be done via swab now. I've done all of mine by blood so far. They started accepting swabs the week I sent my last one in.

I've got printing to do, too...dew claws coming off tomorrow. This is my first litter testing and I'll be microchipping tomorrow, too. I want to be 100% sure which result goes to which pup...I don't think mama would leave any collars on.


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## jessicay (Jun 1, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> Lucy will turn 2 later in June and I will get her hips done..if they come back poor, she will be spade.




I do not know what you are meaning by "poor" there is no OFA rating as poor. Could you please clear this for me?


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## jessicay (Jun 1, 2009)

hogdawg said:


> not even jessicay?



What do I have to do with this Thread?


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## jessicay (Jun 1, 2009)

Brushcreek said:


> Haha...man you may be the biggest jerk on Woody's! You think what you want about me and my dog but i don't have to put my dog in a competition to prove that she is a quality dog!



You got that right!! browing84 and hogdawg are always looking for a fight.


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## browning84 (Jun 1, 2009)

you havent seen me be mean yet


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## NGaHunter (Jun 1, 2009)

jessicay said:


> I do not know what you are meaning by "poor" there is no OFA rating as poor. Could you please clear this for me?



Poor would be mild dysplasia or even fair.


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## hogdawg (Jun 1, 2009)

jessicay said:


> You got that right!! browing84 and hogdawg are always looking for a fight.



I only pick fights with silver lab breeders.


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## jessicay (Jun 1, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> Poor would be mild dysplasia or even fair.



I am Ok with that answer, but I was thinking when you said poor you were saying dysplasia. And for someone to talk ALL the time about the health clearences I would think you would not breed anything below a Good rating.


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## DUD (Jun 1, 2009)

browning84 said:


> you havent seen me be mean yet





  = Internet Tough Guy


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## jessicay (Jun 1, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> Poor would be mild dysplasia or even fair.



Let me see what you think about this, I was on another forum a few months back. They were talking about health clearance this guy posted a good link and facts about health clearance. Anyway I will look for the thread tomorrow. But, he said that if you took EVERY Breed able Labrador and did EVERY healthy test, EVERY HEALTH TEST. Not just the ones you all find important. And than you took only the ones with ONLY Excellent hips and that passed EVERY test that would take the Labrador population down to less than 1/3 of the labs.  You all are ALWAYS talking about the betterment of the breed, would that be, better for the breed. 

Now, I know that AKC would not allow this, we all know that AKC is only after the $$$.


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## hogdawg (Jun 1, 2009)

jessicay said:


> , we all know that AKC is only after the $$$.



like most silver lab breeders?


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## NGaHunter (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> Let me see what you think about this, I was on another forum a few months back. They were talking about health clearance this guy posted a good link and facts about health clearance. Anyway I will look for the thread tomorrow. But, he said that if you took EVERY Breed able Labrador and did EVERY healthy test, EVERY HEALTH TEST. Not just the ones you all find important. And than you took only the ones with ONLY Excellent hips and that passed EVERY test that would take the Labrador population down to less than 1/3 of the labs.  You all are ALWAYS talking about the betterment of the breed, would that be, better for the breed.
> 
> Now, I know that AKC would not allow this, we all know that AKC is only after the $$$.



Health wise yes it would be....but that would be so impractable.  When I talk about betterment of the breed, I am talking about knowledge of what you are breeding.  We will take Lucy for example.  Lets says her hips come back excellent and CNM clear.  I know that she is a carrier of EIC.  Knowing this and knowing that I can only breed to a clear male is betterment of the breed.  NOw on the other hand if her hips came back excellent and she was CNM carrier, I then know I can not breed her.  Its all in the knowledge of what you are breeding with to me.  I would like to see that link.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> Health wise yes it would be....but that would be so impractable.  When I talk about betterment of the breed, I am talking about knowledge of what you are breeding.  We will take Lucy for example.  Lets says her hips come back excellent and CNM clear.  I know that she is a carrier of EIC.  Knowing this and knowing that I can only breed to a clear male is betterment of the breed.  NOw on the other hand if her hips came back excellent and she was CNM carrier, I then know I can not breed her.  Its all in the knowledge of what you are breeding with to me.  I would like to see that link.




Ok, I have spent over 3 hours looking through forums and I can not find it. If I do I will be sure to post the link if I can find it later.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

All this guy wanted to know was what he needed to do, to breed his dog. And everyone that commented on this thread turned it into a debate about if his dog should even be breed. Did any of you people ask someone else should your dogs be breeding or bred, most likely not.  

Bring up this has me thinking, I get tired of going through thread after thread and seeing people getting attacked by alot of members on here. 


We all know that I am a Dilute Breeder (silvers), lets take away the colors because we have already been there on that. And we know that we are not going to agree on that.


If we are TRULY out for the betterment of the breed, why would we be breeding anything that is less than an OFA excellent and that passed every other health test???? In my opinion most people are just happy that they passed there hips, are we truly out for the betterment of the breed.


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> Bring up this has me thinking, I get tired of going through thread after thread and seeing people getting attacked by alot of members on here.



then stop going through the threads, easy fix


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> then stop going through the threads, easy fix



By this answer, I guess you are not out for the betterment of the breed you are just looking to argue with someone.


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## Junior77 (Jun 2, 2009)

I think we should use Browning84's and NGAHunter's philosophy on breeding with the human race. It would solve alot of society's problems! There are to many idiots out there.


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> By this answer, I guess you are not out for the betterment of the breed you are just looking to argue with someone.



Let’s get a few things straight. You are the last person to give breed advice. You won’t DNA your dogs and prove their lineage of such a controversial color in a breed that is already split by another issue and that is Field bred and Bench bred. So ethics on breeding is maybe a topic you should continue to read about instead of talk about capeache. The only things that are, in the opinion of many ethical breeders, certain are blood test and even some are thought to not be 100%. I have heard of dogs way back before hips were a standard clearance of dog that breed many many times and then finally turned out later in age having bad hip and never turned out a single bad hip pup, is that luck who knows but that’s why we test for it and only breed good hips. But it is and ethics situation so don’t breed them. There is also a case I have heard and names will be excluded but the dog only had one of his testicals dropped and the other stayed in his abdomen this is “thought” to be hereditary but he breed probably over 50 time or more and never had a male have this same situation but this also falls into the realm of ethics again, should he been clipped to never bread again. So take the EIC issue, you can still ethically bread a carrier to a clear and get what you want out of the breeding. So you think I don’t have the betterment of the breed in mind, interesting thought. Why would I go to the trouble of taking a dog through the rank and acquire titles in as many venues as I possibly can? He is a good looking Chocolate Lab and already has several requests to breed him when he turns 2. And what did I say. I said no, not until he is at a minimum an HR and or a SH. I said get her clearances done and we can discuss it when I see her pedigree. I also need to get all of his clearances taken care of. 

Now how do you have the betterment of the breed in mind to breed for color that is not a standard even if you can prove that you dogs are all lab and not a hybrid or mixed breed? 

This ought to give you something to whine and ramble about now.


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

Junior77 said:


> I think we should use Browning84's and NGAHunter's philosophy on breeding with the human race. It would solve alot of society's problems! There are to many idiots out there.



You are 100% correct, I don’t believe every person deserves to reproduce; unfortunately you are wrong it would not fix societal problems. These problems are developed by too much government not allowing parents to be parents and beat their kids like some of them need to be. Lets tell them everything will be ok and facilitate their issue so they can be in and out of prison for the rest of our lives, so that those kids whose parents did spank them, as mine did, can work to support them in and out of jail.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 2, 2009)

some people just don't get it jessicay


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> Let’s get a few things straight. You are the last person to give breed advice. You won’t DNA your dogs and prove their lineage of such a controversial color in a breed that is already split by another issue and that is Field bred and Bench bred. So ethics on breeding is maybe a topic you should continue to read about instead of talk about capeache. The only things that are, in the opinion of many ethical breeders, certain are blood test and even some are thought to not be 100%. I have heard of dogs way back before hips were a standard clearance of dog that breed many many times and then finally turned out later in age having bad hip and never turned out a single bad hip pup, is that luck who knows but that’s why we test for it and only breed good hips. But it is and ethics situation so don’t breed them. There is also a case I have heard and names will be excluded but the dog only had one of his testicals dropped and the other stayed in his abdomen this is “thought” to be hereditary but he breed probably over 50 time or more and never had a male have this same situation but this also falls into the realm of ethics again, should he been clipped to never bread again. So take the EIC issue, you can still ethically bread a carrier to a clear and get what you want out of the breeding. So you think I don’t have the betterment of the breed in mind, interesting thought. Why would I go to the trouble of taking a dog through the rank and acquire titles in as many venues as I possibly can? He is a good looking Chocolate Lab and already has several requests to breed him when he turns 2. And what did I say. I said no, not until he is at a minimum an HR and or a SH. I said get her clearances done and we can discuss it when I see her pedigree. I also need to get all of his clearances taken care of.
> 
> Now how do you have the betterment of the breed in mind to breed for color that is not a standard even if you can prove that you dogs are all lab and not a hybrid or mixed breed?
> 
> This ought to give you something to whine and ramble about now.



I think the test you are talking about costs 150 dollars if you want to buy me two tests and send them to me I will send them in. I will do my dilute chocolate (silver) and I will do one my CH sired girls. I know your next question is going to be, "I should want to prove my dogs are full blooded," right? Why should I spend my money to prove something that I already know. I KNOW my dogs are full blooded labs PERIOD. Why did you make this again about the color??? I was asking about health test.


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## Junior77 (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> You are 100% correct, I don’t believe every person deserves to reproduce; unfortunately you are wrong it would not fix societal problems. These problems are developed by too much government not allowing parents to be parents and beat their kids like some of them need to be. Lets tell them everything will be ok and facilitate their issue so they can be in and out of prison for the rest of our lives, so that those kids whose parents did spank them, as mine did, can work to support them in and out of jail.



I think I am starting to like this guy!


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## NGaHunter (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> All this guy wanted to know was what he needed to do, to breed his dog. And everyone that commented on this thread turned it into a debate about if his dog should even be breed. Did any of you people ask someone else should your dogs be breeding or bred, most likely not.
> 
> Bring up this has me thinking, I get tired of going through thread after thread and seeing people getting attacked by alot of members on here.
> 
> ...



I for one have not bred yet...will I...don't know, still have not got all the test done on Lucy.  Looking at your web site you have not had any OFA on your labs that you are already breeding. So I think it is safe to say no you are not out for the betterment of the breed.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> You are 100% correct, I don’t believe every person deserves to reproduce; unfortunately you are wrong it would not fix societal problems. These problems are developed by too much government not allowing parents to be parents and beat their kids like some of them need to be. Lets tell them everything will be ok and facilitate their issue so they can be in and out of prison for the rest of our lives, so that those kids whose parents did spank them, as mine did, can work to support them in and out of jail.




WOW, this is a new LOW, even for you. So, now because I am a silver breeder, I am a bad parent.  

How many kids do you have that do you not even support??


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## Brushcreek (Jun 2, 2009)

Junior77 said:


> I think I am starting to like this guy!



you may be the only one on here that does! haha  you should see all the pm's i've gotten from people saying he is just stuck up his own butt and not to listen to what he says!


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> I for one have not bred yet...will I...don't know, still have not got all the test done on Lucy.  Looking at your web site you have not had any OFA on your labs that you are already breeding. So I think it is safe to say no you are not out for the betterment of the breed.



Actually, I have not updated it in a while, all of my dogs have passed their OFA's    And if they did not I pet homed them out.


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> WOW, this is a new LOW, even for you. So, now because I am a silver breeder, I am a bad parent.
> 
> How many kids do you have that do you not even support??



That was not direct at anyone specific, notice your name was not even mentioned in that post. Not everything has to be about you.


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## Junior77 (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> WOW, this is a new LOW, even for you. So, now because I am a silver breeder, I am a bad parent.
> 
> How many kids do you have that do you not even support??



Jessicay, I don't have a dog in this hunt so to speak. I just like reading the threads for entertainment purposes. But in Browning's defense I don't think his statement was in reference to you.


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## NGaHunter (Jun 2, 2009)

I Stand corrected then...CERF also...notice I will keep pushing on the tests


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

Brushcreek said:


> you may be the only one on here that does! haha  you should see all the pm's i've gotten from people saying he is just stuck up his own butt and not to listen to what he says!



Shut your mouth little boy, I had already forgotten about you. Don’t get caught in the laser beam.


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## Brushcreek (Jun 2, 2009)

haha little boy huh?


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> I Stand corrected then...CERF also...notice I will keep pushing on the tests




Actually that is my next test, I have 4 PRA test I am waiting on results now. What I notice is you all do not practice what you preach. I would think that if I came on the GON, ALL the time and talked about health tests I would make an example and not bred anything below a good, really it should be excellent.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> So you think I don’t have the betterment of the breed in mind, interesting thought. Why would I go to the trouble of taking a dog through the rank and acquire titles in as many venues as I possibly can?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## NGaHunter (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> Actually that is my next test, I have 4 PRA test I am waiting on results now. What I notice is you all do not practice what you preach. I would think that if I came on the GON, ALL the time and talked about health tests I would make an example and not bred anything below a good, really it should be excellent.



I don't get this....I have had 0 litters...how am not practicing what I preach?


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## NGaHunter (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> Having a titled dog does not mean you are doing it for the betterment of the breed. By your actions, you are only doing it so you can come and the GON and put down everyone that does not have a titled dog.  Although, I have CH sired dogs and titled dogs, that does not mean crap to most puppy buyers.



I believe you are right about most puppy buyers that are buying for color don't give a crap about titles....but go to the games we play and titles mean alot more than color does.  I think it all depends on where you advertise...try putting an ad on RTF for your next litter and see how many inquire and I am sure it would be the same amout of people that would inquire about a litter that we would post where you advertise.


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## CedarSwampRetrievers (Jun 2, 2009)

If you had ever seen a dog that is CNM or EIC affected, especially if it was one of yours, you would understand where we're coming from. Yes the videos are sad, but they do not give you the feeling that seeing a dog in person going through it gives you.

The CNM affected dog never develops muscles properly. They cannot even hold their head up like a normal dog. They cannot climb steps. They cannot run and play even though the desire is there. Until they "stabilize" (if they do) they generally cannot get up to walk on their own. The one I knew had to be put down at the age of 7...the muscles in his stomach were no longer able to be effective. 

My EIC affected dog would get weak in the back end from just going for exercise walks through the woods...he'd be off leash and never out of sight. The first time he had a full episode (about 6 years ago) it was very scary to me. He was literally dragging his back end behind him like a frog in water. I was thrilled when the test came out as I knew I would never have to go through that again. 

Both genes are through out the labs: show, field, and pet lines. 

I plan to also start testing for the other DNA testing as well. PRA, RD, both eye diseases aren't detected 100% by CERF.   They are also working on epilepsy and cancer. I donated blood to the cancer and epilepsy research.


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## browning84 (Jun 2, 2009)

jessicay said:


> Having a titled dog does not mean you are doing it for the betterment of the breed. By your actions, you are only doing it so you can come and the GON and put down everyone that does not have a titled dog.  Although, I have CH sired dogs and titled dogs, that does not mean crap to most puppy buyers.



Obviously you are ignorant in what the betterment of the breed really means. The lab is a hunting dog but due to the split of Bench and Field there are now two purposes. Even thought this breed does make a good companion it is not for the betterment of the breed to breed strictly on that. If you are breeding for bench fine I can respect that it’s not my forte but I can at least respect it and know that the standards will never fit what a field bred lab is. So in the field bred labs people compete as they do in the show ring and those that either pass the standard or place and title in competition are superior to those that didn’t. So since we are trying to better the breed why would we breed two none title dogs in a breed that is meant to hunt or show (due to the split). Whether you are showing or hunting, titles are proof and that’s what you need to show your dog is worthy to further the improvement of the breed. I am not titling and competing my dog to put anyone down, I am doing because it’s fun and it’s for the betterment of the breed. Because you do neither bench or field what contribution have you made to the breed, don’t say bench because you know as well as anyone else on the forum a silver will never when and AKC show. Go ahead inform us of your wonderful contributions you make to the breed.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> Obviously you are ignorant in what the betterment of the breed really means. The lab is a hunting dog but due to the split of Bench and Field there are now two purposes. Even thought this breed does make a good companion it is not for the betterment of the breed to breed strictly on that. If you are breeding for bench fine I can respect that it’s not my forte but I can at least respect it and know that the standards will never fit what a field bred lab is. So in the field bred labs people compete as they do in the show ring and those that either pass the standard or place and title in competition are superior to those that didn’t. So since we are trying to better the breed why would we breed two none title dogs in a breed that is meant to hunt or show (due to the split). Whether you are showing or hunting, titles are proof and that’s what you need to show your dog is worthy to further the improvement of the breed. I am not titling and competing my dog to put anyone down, I am doing because it’s fun and it’s for the betterment of the breed. Because you do neither bench or field what contribution have you made to the breed, don’t say bench because you know as well as anyone else on the forum a silver will never when and AKC show. Go ahead inform us of your wonderful contributions you make to the breed.



I am not the one who comes on the GON and puts people down for not doing everything your way.

What am I doing for the betterment of the breed?

I have been working with my silver dog to bring to the field, to get her titled.  I also have standard byc dogs that I put in the ring. I have one yellow girl who she has passed her CERF test, I am waiting on her PRA, and she turns two in September so I will than have her OFA's done. After she pass's than I will do her EIC. Now after I said ALL of what test I am doing with her.  She is in the show ring. She has gotten second at one show, reserve at another and first place at another. After, she is a show CH, she has hunting titles in her pedigree, so I plan on working on her for some titles with the field. No, I do not think she will ever get any major titles, but at least a JH, SH, or HR. So, yes I am doing my part for the betterment of the breed.


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## NGaHunter (Jun 2, 2009)

I know Shady Dale is a ways away...but you are welcome to come train any time.  Have titled a SH and a JH, and moving to the next level.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> I know Shady Dale is a ways away...but you are welcome to come train any time.  Have titled a SH and a JH, and moving to the next level.




Thank You so much for the invite.  I may take you up on your offer. 

I was not trying to get this on a topic of ethical breeding, I was only wanting to know what ever one though it would take to truly improve the breed.


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## hogdawg (Jun 2, 2009)

NGaHunter said:


> I know Shady Dale is a ways away...but you are welcome to come train any time.  Have titled a SH and a JH, and moving to the next level.



You could possibly be the nicest person I know.  This could be a great opportunity for browning and jessicay to make up.  I will make a special trip just to see that.


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## DUD (Jun 2, 2009)

browning84 said:


> Obviously you are ignorant in what the betterment of the breed really means. The lab is a hunting dog but due to the split of Bench and Field there are now two purposes. Even thought this breed does make a good companion it is not for the betterment of the breed to breed strictly on that. If you are breeding for bench fine I can respect that it’s not my forte but I can at least respect it and know that the standards will never fit what a field bred lab is. So in the field bred labs people compete as they do in the show ring and those that either pass the standard or place and title in competition are superior to those that didn’t. So since we are trying to better the breed why would we breed two none title dogs in a breed that is meant to hunt or show (due to the split). Whether you are showing or hunting, titles are proof and that’s what you need to show your dog is worthy to further the improvement of the breed. I am not titling and competing my dog to put anyone down, I am doing because it’s fun and it’s for the betterment of the breed. Because you do neither bench or field what contribution have you made to the breed, don’t say bench because you know as well as anyone else on the forum a silver will never when and AKC show. Go ahead inform us of your wonderful contributions you make to the breed.




I really dont hope that you breed with anyone.  Im fairly certain that you could pass a gene that would instantly cause your babys head to be stuck in its own rear end.  Therefore this would cause major labor problems for the young lady who has been infected by you.  Please consider not breeding because you creating any offspring could be potentially dangerous for you and those around you.


Just a FYI for everyone else....there is a test available to see if you may pass this gene also.  Go back and read all of Browning84's threads/posts.  If yours are similar you are probably a carrier of this gene.


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## jessicay (Jun 2, 2009)

DUD said:


> I really dont hope that you breed with anyone.  Im fairly certain that you could pass a gene that would instantly cause your babys head to be stuck in its own rear end.  Therefore this would cause major labor problems for the young lady who has been infected by you.  Please consider not breeding because you creating any offspring could be potentially dangerous for you and those around you.
> 
> 
> Just a FYI for everyone else....there is a test available to if you may pass this gene also.  Go back and read all of Browning84's threads/posts.  If yours are similar you are probably a carrier of this gene.



I do not care if you are joking or not, this is FUNNY!!!


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## hogdawg (Jun 2, 2009)




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## fireretriever (Jun 3, 2009)

If we took away the the colors then all labs would be black the way they are supposed to be. I've always said that any color but black was a mutant and people that breed for color are fools. If you breed two blacks and get a something else thats fine. Color in the lab breed should be the very last thing considered when breeding there is way to much other very important traits to worry about. Yes I own, train, hunt, and hunt test labs. I don't want to start any crazy fights but it sounds to me like NGahunter and browning84 are making more sense than any of the rest of yall, listen to them!!!!


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## waterdogs (Jun 3, 2009)

I agree with NGHUNTER AND BROWNING. They care about the breed just like I do, and we all love our dogs.


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)

DUD said:


> I really dont hope that you breed with anyone.  Im fairly certain that you could pass a gene that would instantly cause your babys head to be stuck in its own rear end.  Therefore this would cause major labor problems for the young lady who has been infected by you.  Please consider not breeding because you creating any offspring could be potentially dangerous for you and those around you.
> 
> 
> Just a FYI for everyone else....there is a test available to see if you may pass this gene also.  Go back and read all of Browning84's threads/posts.  If yours are similar you are probably a carrier of this gene.




I see you posted this at 10:24pm so obviously you've been drinking, you really shouldn’t drink and post it could lead to bad things. As you can see your naive views are the minority and many agree with my views. I recommend you A. don’t drink and post anymore and B. do as much research on this topic before you open you obnoxious mouth again.


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## jessicay (Jun 3, 2009)

waterdogs said:


> I agree with NGHUNTER AND BROWNING. They care about the breed just like I do, and we all love our dogs.




We all know that you three are good buddies, so this statement does mean anything to me or anyone else.


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## jessicay (Jun 3, 2009)

browning84 said:


> I see you posted this at 10:24pm so obviously you've been drinking, you really shouldn’t drink and post it could lead to bad things. As you can see your naive views are the minority and many agree with my views. I recommend you A. don’t drink and post anymore and B. do as much research on this topic before you open you obnoxious mouth again.




Not everyone on here drinks. I think all DUD was trying to do was lighten up the topic. 

You know when you read his post you laughed!! I bet even your good buddies though it was funny.


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> We all know that you three are good buddies, so this statement does mean anything to me or anyone else.



I don't know waterdog.


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## browning84 (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> Not everyone on here drinks. I think all DUD was trying to do was lighten up the topic.
> 
> You know when you read his post you laughed!! I bet even your good buddies though it was funny.



I never said it wasn't funny. Yes it was funny.


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## waterdogs (Jun 3, 2009)

jessicay said:


> We all know that you three are good buddies, so this statement does mean anything to me or anyone else.



I have never met Browning, but I know that when you are into real labs like we are, you care about your  dogs and have all the proper clearance on your dogs  before you breed. yes you can take a dog to the vet, and they say your dogs healthy, but I will not breed until i have all the OFA< CMN<EIC EYES ect done.  I don't want to sell someone a pup and it have problems down the road, then that person breeds and then they breed and you just keep passing the problems on.  Yes we run our dogs in hunt test and they are from good dogs, the parents have had all the test ran and they are good.


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## waterdogs (Jun 3, 2009)

the rest of my statement did not load, so I will finish later. got to go to work.


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## DUD (Jun 3, 2009)

browning84 said:


> I see you posted this at 10:24pm so obviously you've been drinking, you really shouldn’t drink and post it could lead to bad things. As you can see your naive views are the minority and many agree with my views. I recommend you A. don’t drink and post anymore and B. do as much research on this topic before you open you obnoxious mouth again.



First, Ill say whatever i want whenever i want about your naive views.  2nd no alcohol was involved.  My research on this topic is very extensive.  Will I chastise people whos research isnt that deep?  NO.  I would much rather try to steer them in the right direction without having an obnoxious mouth like you.  Face it, no matter how much you want everyone to breed to certain standards, its not gonna happen.  Espically when you drill people about it.

If you really want to help the breed, espically with your superior knowledge of the labrador, help people instead of belittling them.  

IMO people like you are hurting the breed and keeping people from competing because they think everyone has just as sour of an attitude as you.  Therefore they dont want to bring their "not so great" pedigree of a dog out for anyone to see. 

Use your head, thats what its there for.


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## DUD (Jun 3, 2009)

waterdogs said:


> I agree with NGHUNTER AND BROWNING. They care about the breed just like I do, and we all love our dogs.



No doubt, Donald cares about the breed and wants to better it.  Browning cares about the breed and could help but wants to be a keyboard rambo instead.


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## jessicay (Jun 3, 2009)

DUD said:


> First, Ill say whatever i want whenever i want about your naive views.  2nd no alcohol was involved.  My research on this topic is very extensive.  Will I chastise people whos research isnt that deep?  NO.  I would much rather try to steer them in the right direction without having an obnoxious mouth like you.  Face it, no matter how much you want everyone to breed to certain standards, its not gonna happen.  Espically when you drill people about it.
> 
> If you really want to help the breed, espically with your superior knowledge of the labrador, help people instead of belittling them.
> 
> ...




This was wrote so well.


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## coachwillow (Jun 3, 2009)

DUD said:


> No doubt, Donald cares about the breed and wants to better it.  Browning cares about the breed and could help but wants to be a keyboard rambo instead.


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## dognducks (Jun 4, 2009)

Wow haven't been around here for a while. You guys sure are having some great discussions. NGaHunter, serious question, If you were to breed lucy with a non carrier of EIC would her EIC trait still be passed along to her litter?


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## NGaHunter (Jun 4, 2009)

If I was to breed Lucy(EIC Carrier) to a Clear stud then you should get 50% clear and 50% carriers.  There would be no EIC affected pups in the litter. Below is a link to show the implications of the EIC mutation for breeding

http://www.cvm.umn.edu/vdl/prod/groups/cvm/@pub/@cvm/@vdl/documents/asset/cvm_asset_107687.pdf


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