# Saved but sin



## Randy (Nov 14, 2005)

We all sin and I understand that but can a person that claims to be saved live in sin?


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Nov 14, 2005)




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## GeauxLSU (Nov 14, 2005)

I'm going to open probably the most sensitive of all topics with my response, but that is partly why the common concept of 'saved' has never made me very comfortable.  I have not been 'saved' as probably most people define it here.  Meaning, there is no 'definining moment' in my life.  As a Catholic I was confirmed as a young teenager and publicly professed Christ as my Savior but that is basically a scheduled sacrament so again, it does not meet the criteria of most here.  However, prior and since, Christ has always and will always be integral to who I am.  Yes he has been more present at some times and less at others due to my own doing, but a 'switch was never flipped' to give me the get out of jail free card.  We all know untold number of people who claimed to be saved (and quote the hour and day) but in the same breathe talk about their sinful life they CURRENTLY live and apparently without shame (meaning REPENTANCE!).  It is VERY depressing to me since I know the harm to the overall witness for Christ is surely damaged.   
So to answer your question, the answer is clearly yes.  Since the meaning of 'saved' I'm afraid, despite what I know will be several responses to the contrary, is a VERY subjective term.  For some, I think it sadly means nothing but a false assurance for them that NO MATTER WHAT they do or how they live, just because they made a public profession, they will enjoy eternal happiness.  I'm not buying it.    For others, it surely is a genuine defining moment in their lives, rich in the Holy Spirit, that truely changes them FOR Christ.  A sinful life is then not even an option for them.  The difference is likely obvious quickly upon meeting them.


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## Madsnooker (Nov 14, 2005)

No,

I do not believe you can live in sin and make heaven. Yes, I do believe that you do not lose your salvation just becuase you may sin. What I mean is living in constant sin and living a life contrary to what the Bible says. I'm very short on time at this moment but I can post many scriptures that deal with this in the new testament. Most of the time when the writer deals with this in the Bible he is talking to believers and giving them warnings of such actions.


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## Jody Hawk (Nov 14, 2005)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> I do not believe you can live in sin and make heaven. Yes, I do believe that you do not lose your salvation just becuase you may sin. What I mean is living in constant sin and living a life contrary to what the Bible says.



What Snook said !!!!


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## Vernon Holt (Nov 14, 2005)

*Saved But Continues to Persue Sin*

Being a professing Christian clearly makes a difference in a person's life.  If no change is brought about in the life of a believer, then serious question can be raised as to whether they are for real, or whether they are a pretender (otherwise known as a hypocrite).

Judgement is not left to us, but it is perfectly in order for us to be "fruit inspectors".  Scripture states in Matthew 7:20: "*Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".*  Further, Luke 6:44 states, "*For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit".*

For a person to knowingly, and openly pursue sin, hardly represents bearing good fruit.  It raises serious question as to whether their salvation is for real

As was so well stated by Phil, heartfelt repentance can change the entire matter.  It does however require a turning away from willful sinning.  Paul raises the question in Romans 6:1-2: *"What, shall we sin then?  Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?  God forbid".*

Vernon


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## Gator1679 (Nov 14, 2005)

2 Corinthians 5:17 "If anyone is in Christ, they are a new creature, old things are gone and behold all things become new." 

To GeauxLSU, I am not Catholic, but Baptist by doctrinal beliefs. I am a Pastor on a large church staff-- but agree whole heartedly with you when you say it hurts to see people who by their actions are hurting the overall testimony of Christ. 
Unfortunately too many people and really unfortunately way too many churches (no matter what the denomination) DO NOT represent the heart of Christ very well. 
I agree with you also, that their are a lot of so-called professing Christians that aren't playing the part very well. But there is a second part to the salvation journey. It isnt just profess with your mouth-- but its also believe with you heart!  And it is really hard for me, if I truly believe in something (down deep in my heart) to live contrary to that. No matter what our denomination, we all need help and prayers to live our life to the fullest- and in reflection to that heart of Christ.


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## It's Me (Nov 14, 2005)

Yes, he can...but he's going to be one unhappy camper. First, remember that one sin is like all sins. Ever heard of the saying that the unhappiest person in the world is the saved believer deliberately living against God's will? Fundamentally, once saved, we belong to God...bought by his blood. We're no longer our own masters.

Excerpt copied from:
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/godwork1.html

"Window illustration:
Some people look at breaking God’s law like breaking out a windowpane in a colonial window. Stealing, for instance, only breaks out pane eight, so they think. All the other panes remain intact. The truth of the matter is that we must look at breaking God’s laws like breaking a picture window. If you throw a rock through one corner of it, the entire window is broken. So it is with the law: if you steal a candy bar, you first have to covet it (10th), you desire bad things from the one you stole (6th), you lie by hiding it (9th), etc. Truly, if you have broken one commandment, you are guilty of them all."

Even as saved Christians, we're still subject to sin...and cannot, not sin. The human race has been born into sin since Adam. Only Christ's blood and his promise to not hold sin against us if we accept him rectifies us unto God and allows us to be perfect with Christ in Heaven...post life here on earth. 

Excerpt copied from: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/godwork1.html

"Yes. God’s agreement is eternally binding. Those who reject Christ are judged according to the covenant of works. Those who, by God’s Spirit, accept Christ are saved by grace, through faith. They are saved by Christ’s works alone. Still the Christian is to use the freedom he has in Christ to obey God’s law. When even the Christian lapses into sin and repents, though eternally he is not held guilty of that sin, there are temporal consequences of that sin."

Second, consider the parable of the prodigal son. He never stops being the son, but his actions do have consequences. For starters, he loses his inheritance. 

Third,
What Jesus Christ did for you and I was good enough for all time sakes. Without pouring out every detail here...read Romans Chapter 5 and 6. Take a look at 5:20-21 in particular.

I'm with 100% GeauxLSU about "the overall witness for Christ is surely damaged." If we as saved Christians live openly and willfully against Gods will, we're not the ones that are going to be critisized, he is. BTW, it's for that reason that I don't have any Christian bumper stickers on my car. I'm just not consistently "tame" enough to not draw criticism to Christ by my actions on the road.

Something else to consider about GeauxLSU's point of "saved" is a subjective term, and the feelings/experiences of people being saved
....being saved is not about our emotions, or how we fit an experience into this, that or the other. It's about repentance, belief and acceptance of Jesus Christ as our one and only savior. The rest is Gods gift to us, and I'm sure that we experience that in different ways. He does not break his promises, period. 

As proof of genuine repentance, we must however examine our lives to see if the fruit of the Holy Spirit is being produced regularly. If not, it should drag us right back to the cross.




			
				Randy said:
			
		

> We all sin and I understand that but can a person that claims to be saved live in sin?


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## redwards (Nov 14, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> ....can a person that claims to be saved live in sin?


Would you agree that this might well be the definition of one who is an 'apostate'?
If so, then the answer may lie in Jesus' own words as he was describing the one who would betray him...namely, Judas.

John 6:70
Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

John 17:12
"While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

To me, God's word is very clear that one who has repented and by FAITH (Forsaking All I  Trust Him) received the Holy Spirit will not continue to live in sin.


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## It's Me (Nov 14, 2005)

Another excerpt from:
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/justify.html

THE IMPUTATION OF RIGHTEOUSNESS

He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (2 Corinthians 5:21).

In this single verse, Paul pictures two different aspects of the work of Christ on our behalf.

The Imputation of our sins upon Christ.
Jesus became sin on our behalf. This does not mean that He actually became a sinner or that He began to sin. He has lived through all eternity without sin and He will always be perfect in His righteous character.

How did He become sin on our behalf? What really happened on the cross? Our sins were put to His account. He was credited with our sins. While He was on the cross, God the Father treated Him as though He were a guilty sinner. Jesus was judged in our place. The wrath of God was poured out on Him. In the midst of this condemnation, He cried out, "My God, my God, why have You forsaken Me?"

The sinless Son of God was judged as though He had committed all of the sins which have ever taken place throughout the entire history of mankind. He was judged in our place. Our sins were imputed or credited to Him. But this is not all.

The Imputation of Christ's Righteousness Toward Us.
Just as our sins were put to His account while He was on the cross, so in the same way, the righteousness of Christ is put to our account when we believe in Him.

We are credited with the righteousness of Christ. We are reckoned to be righteous. On this basis, we are justified - declared to be righteous. And for all eternity, God will treat us as though we were as righteous as Jesus Christ.

Now, this does not mean that I actually BECOME righteous when I believe in Christ. If that were true, then no believer would ever sin and this just is not the case. Rather, I am legally credited with the righteousness of Christ so that I can be legally declared to be righteous.


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## dutchman (Nov 15, 2005)

I think Mr. Vernon Holt summed up my position on the issue very well. I need not add more.


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## Madsnooker (Nov 16, 2005)

So are some of you saying that someone that professes to be saved but as fallen into a sinful nature was not truly saved to begin with?  

I'm just trying to make sure I'm following some of the responses.


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2005)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> So are some of you saying that someone that professes to be saved but as fallen into a sinful nature was not truly saved to begin with?
> 
> I'm just trying to make sure I'm following some of the responses.



I hear that a lot from some Christians.  That is their excuse for once saved always saved!


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 16, 2005)

Ephesions 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

Ephesions 2:9
"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

You cannot work to attain Salvation, because than it would not be a gift from God, and we would not need Jesus if we could attain Salvation by ourselves.

If you are truely saved then you will turn away from your sins. You cannot loose something that God has given you.

I am not saying that you will be sin free, but that you will make an effort to not sin. We all fail God, from our thoughts to our actions.

It is in our sin nature to reject God, but if you are truely Saved than God has given you a new nature.

"Chapter 10 Of Effectual Calling

Those whom God has predestinated to life, He is pleased in His appointed and accepted time to effectually call by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death which they are in by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ. He enlightens their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God. He takes away their heart of stone and gives to them a heart of flesh. He renews their wills, and by His almighty power, causes them to desire and pursue that which is good. He effectually draws them to Jesus Christ, yet in such a way that they come absolutely freely, being made willing by His grace.

(Rom. 8:30, 11:7; Eph. 1:10, 11; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Eph. 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17, 18; Ezek. 36:26; Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 36:27; Eph. 1:19; Ps. 110:3; Cant. 1:4)"

From
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm

Hope this explains some....
DB BB


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> If you are truely saved then you will turn away from your sins. You cannot loose something that God has given you.



So you are saying if you are truely saved you will not live in sin.  So those that claim to be saved but are living in sin are not truely saved?


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 16, 2005)

By Living in Sin what do you mean? Not going to church? lieing? stealing?

"I can't give up my evil ways?"
Galatians 6:7-8
"Be not decieved; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."


If you continue to live in sin, after you say you have been saved, then in my opinion you are not saved, because you are not doing what a Christian(to be Christ-like) should do.

With Salvation comes Repentence, by the dictionary meaning: "Remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin" - Dictionary.com

After Salvation you should have a feeling or know what is right and wrong in the eyes of the Lord, and He will chastise you for the wrong things you do.

When you are Saved you strive to walk with Christ. If you don't feel a conviction to walk with Christ than I would say you are not saved.

DB BB


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## Randy (Nov 16, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> If you continue to live in sin, after you say you have been saved, then in my opinion you are not saved, because you are not doing what a Christian(to be Christ-like) should do.


I guess what I mean by living in sin is continuing to do anything on a consistant basis that is a sin.  It could be anything from smoking, to drinking, to living with somebody without being married, to cussing, to having the playboy channel?


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 16, 2005)

A Saved person needs to confront and turn away from these things. I know of several people that when they got Saved they never took another drink or smoked again. If you hand it over to God fully and are a Saved person than it will be taken out of your life. We cannot control anything, everything is the will of God. He knows what we are going to do before we actually do it. Trying to hold on to the myth of control is a major boundry for most Christians. You have to Trust that what is happening is in Gods will.

I may have been quick to say:
"then in my opinion you are not saved, because you are not doing what a Christian(to be Christ-like) should do."

I know several people that drink occassionally, I would not call them drunks or acoholics, but I also think they are good people and are Christians. Yes I would like for them to give up what they are doing, because it is not a good testimony to their faith. But until they hand it all over to the Lord then it will not be handled. 

Yes, Christians struggle with sin, and to say you are not going to struggle with sin is telling you a lie, but the best thing you can do is turn your sins or struggle with sins over to the Lord and he will help you find a way out of these sins.

Everyone sins, even Saved people sin. The difference is that Saved people should ask for forgiveness and turn away from their sins. The unsaved don't ever turn away from their sins and don't see anything wrong with what they are doing.

My major sin to overcome was cussing, it took me along time to not cuss and I am not going to say I don't do it now, because when I let my emotions get the best of me I do let some slip out, but I don't go around cussing in every other sentence.

So in summary, fighting sin is a constent battle. It is in human nature to sin, ever since Adam sinned and it will be until Jesus comes to take us home.

DB BB


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## GeauxLSU (Nov 16, 2005)

It is simply inconceivable to me that a person who was 'saved' (as I believe most define it here) would live a sinful life.  That's like denying your very being.  How is that possible?  How can someone, who supposedly was OVERCOME with the Holy Spirit, fully acknowledged, understands, and accepts, what Christ did on the cross for THEM,  then live a sinful life?  Somebody please explain that to me???  
Sorry, the "we are all human, we all fall, we all make mistakes" blah blah blah just doesn't get it for me.  If you are a saved Christian you are supposed to be different.  How does using the "I'm human" defense make you any different than the atheist, or the heretic?  
If you are TRUELY different, it WILL show.  
I suppose I could say I was a hunter and spend my weekends protesting with PETA, but I doubt it.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 17, 2005)

GeauxLSU,

To be without sin, is to be perfect. There has only been one Perfect Person in this world, Christ. The only thing we can do is to strive to be like Christ. You will never ever be able to live a life that is sin free.

Now I am not defending someone that lives in constent sin, knowing that it is not right to sin. Because God has given them the gift of salvation, they should know what is pleasing to God. So it is not possible to be saved and remain living in sin. Once you are Saved you will change, Be it you might not change at the drop of a hat, but i don't believe it will take you your lifetime.

DB BB


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## Madsnooker (Nov 17, 2005)

My point is I believe someone can get saved and then down the road turn from the truth. I personally know some that have done that very thing.

I understand that when someone gets saved and it was genuine that their life is changed and they turn from their sinful life. 

As I said, I know people that were saved early in life and then years later after events such as death, divorce and so on quite going to church and they live in sin today. My opinion is they have fallen out of grace by their own actions.


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## Randy (Nov 17, 2005)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> My point is I believe someone can get saved and then down the road turn from the truth. I personally know some that have done that very thing.  My opinion is they have fallen out of grace by their own actions.



So is it your opinion that they are now doomed to big toebig toebig toebig toe suposing they do not come back to grace?


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## Madsnooker (Nov 17, 2005)

Randy,

Let me be clear in that I, in no way, want to judge someone in that condition. I'm just giving my opinion as what I think on this topic.

I will answer that by saying, if I were to fall away (start living a sinful life), after I have known the truth, I would have no confidence I would make heaven while in that sinful nature. 

I believe there is a scripture in Hebrew that addresses this. 

Let me assure you, I have no plans on finding out if I'm right or not.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 17, 2005)

Madsnooker,

You are saying that once you are saved you can loose your salvation? Have you ever considered that those that you thought were saved, could have not really been saved? I don't believe that there is anything that once you are truely saved that you can do to loose your salvation.

Ephesions 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

Ephesions 2:9
"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 17, 2005)

*The Perseverance of the Saints*

To add to this from The Baptist Confession of Faith 1689

17. The Perseverance of the Saints

(Saints = Saved)

"1.Those whom God has accepted in the beloved, and has effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace, but they will certainly persevere in that state to the end and be eternally saved. This is because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, and therefore He continues to beget and nourish in them faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the spirit which lead to immortality. And though many storms and floods arise and beat against the saints, yet these things shall never be able to sweep them off the foundation and rock which they are fastened upon by faith. Even though, through unbelief and the temptations of Satan, the sight and feeling of the light and love of God may for a time be clouded and obscured from them, yet God is still the same, and they are sure to be kept by His power until their salvation is complete, when they shall enjoy the purchased possession which is theirs, for they are engraved upon the palm of His hands, and their names have been written in His Book of Life from all eternity. 

2. This perseverance of the saints does not depend on them - that is, on their own free will. It rests upon the immutability of the decree of election, which flows from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father. It also rests upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, and upon the union which true saints have with Him. - It rests upon the oath of God, and upon the abiding of His Spirit. 

- It depends upon the seed of God being within them and upon the very nature of the covenant of grace. 

- All these factors give rise to the certainty and infallibility of the security and perseverance of the saints. 

3. The saints may, through the temptation of Satan and the world, and because their remaining sinful tendencies prevail over them, and through their neglect of the means which God has provided to keep them, fall into grievous sins. They may continue in this state for some time, so that they incur God's displeasure, grieve His Holy Spirit, suffer the impairment of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened and their conscience wounded, and hurt and scandalise others. By this they will bring temporal judgements upon themselves. Yet they shall renew their repentance and be preserved, through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end."

I know that not everyone is of the Baptist belief, so these might not mean much to those that are not Baptist.

You would be surprised how many Baptist do not even know the "The Baptist Confession of Faith 1689" even exists.

Here is a link to the website that I copied these from if anyone is interested in reading them all.


http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/creeds/bcof.htm

Thanks,
DB BB


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## GeauxLSU (Nov 17, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> GeauxLSU,
> 
> To be without sin, is to be perfect. There has only been one Perfect Person in this world, Christ. The only thing we can do is to strive to be like Christ. You will never ever be able to live a life that is sin free.
> 
> ...


I am referring to a sinful life, not stumbling.  I'm referring to wallowing.  
It is obvious to me and you and everyone, when we meet someone who truely has been saturated with the Spirit.  It is also obvious when we meet someone stumbling around in the dark, regardless of what comes out of their lips.


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

Paul writes in the book of Hebrews concerning the Jewish Christians turning back to the old law. He gives the consequences of that. He states there is no other sacrifice for sins except Jesus. By falling away (returning to the old law, returning to a sinful nature, etc.).


Paul writes in Hebrews 6:4-6

"4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[a]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

I don't think it gets any clearer than that. He is speaking of those that have been saved(this dispells the idea that maybe they really were not saved) and then fall away (by their own willfull actions).

I will say that I beleive it is very hard to lose your salvation.  I believe a person has to willfully turn their back on Christ. I don't believe you can lose your salvation by simply stumbling no matter how many times.

Also remember in Revelation John writes of the 7 churches and he says one will be blotted out of the book of life. You cannot be blotted out if your not in. I know Revelation is hard to understand but that is also pretty clear.


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## GeauxLSU (Nov 18, 2005)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> I don't believe you can lose your salvation by simply stumbling no matter how many times.


A 'stumble' is not intentional.  
Good stuff Snook.


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## ZMI (Nov 18, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> We all sin and I understand that but can a person that claims to be saved live in sin?



I thought we were always sinners in the eyes of the lord, just saved by his grace.


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2005)

Snook,
That sheads some light.  Unless I read it wrong you can loose your salvation.  But even worse "it is impossible to get it back?"


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> A 'stumble' is not intentional.
> Good stuff Snook.



Thank goodness becuase I would be in bad shape.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 18, 2005)

Madsnooker,

Do you believe in a Omniscient God?

If you do, then why would God give Salvation to someone and also know that that someone is going to turn his back on God in the future?

This is how I interpet Hebrews 6. The same way as Matthew Henry:

In Matthew Henry's Commentary on Hebrews 6 he relates how a true believer may fall into sin:
"This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints.big toe These [True believers] indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security.big toe But the tree that has not these roots will not stand," Matthew Henry's Commentary on The Whole Bible, page 2389. 
Matthew Henry believes that Hebrews chapter 6:4-9 deals with unbelievers that were never truly saved, not people that have lost their salvation as many today teach.big toe I agree 100% that Hebrews chapter 6:4-9 deals with unbelievers that were never truly saved in the first place.

As for the Church in Revelations, I haven't studied much about that and would like for you to give me the verses so that I can read and pray and study them.


Some Scriptures for: (this below and the M. Henry's commentary was copied and pasted from this website: http://www.myfortress.org/LoseSalvation.html )

Eternal Security Of the True Believer:

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.big toe My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man [This means "No Man"] is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand," John 10:26-29.

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.big toe He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.big toe These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God," 1 John 5:11-13.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life," John 5:24.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.big toe For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.big toe And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day," John 6:37-39.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life...He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God," John 3:16, 18.

"Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:25-26.

"That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory," Ephesians 1:12-14.

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption," Ephesians 4:30.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ," Phillipians 1:16.

"To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time," 1 Peter 1:4-5.

"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him," Romans 5:8-9.

"So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ," 1 Corinthians 1:7-8.

"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord," Romans 8:38-39.

Hope this helps...

DB BB


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

BB,

John was instructed to write to the leader of the church in Sardis. This was just one of the seven churches he was writing to concerning their actions.

This is what he wrote in Rev. 3:1-6

"I know all the things you do, and that you have a reputation for being alive--but you are dead. 2Now wake up! Strengthen what little remains, for even what is left is at the point of death. Your deeds are far from right in the sight of God. 3Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly and turn to me again. Unless you do, I will come upon you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.
4"Yet even in Sardis there are some who have not soiled their garments with evil deeds. They will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5All who are victorious will be clothed in white. I will never erase(blotted in other translations) their names from the Book of Life, but I will announce before my Father and his angels that they are mine. 6Anyone who is willing to hear should listen to the Spirit and understand what the Spirit is saying to the churches."

Notice he says in verse 3 "Go back to what you heard and BELIEVED at first; hold on to it firmly and turn to me again"

You can only interprit this as someone that was truely saved and then "fell away". Becuase of Gods grace he is warning them to come back in good standing.


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

BB,

Also, I'm not sure I agree with Mathew Henry's opinion on Hebrew 6.

 (In Matthew Henry's Commentary on Hebrews 6 he relates how a true believer may fall into sin:
"This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints.)

If Paul writes that a true believer could fall into sin than I think it's very shaky to think otherwise.

You have to remember, Paul is writing to the Jewish christians(this is not hypothetical, these are true christians) that are turning back to the old law. He is telling them that if they do than there is no other sacrifice for sins. If they continue down that road than they are saying they no longer have confidence in Christ's sacrifice but think they have to sacrifice animals again for their salvation. This is just not hypothetical writings of Paul of what could happen if a believer may fall into sin.

As far as the other scriptures you gave all explian how SOMEONE else cannot take your salvation and I totally agree, however, I believe you can give your gift back at your own will, granted very unlikely for most christians.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 18, 2005)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> Also remember in Revelation John writes of the 7 churches and he says one will be blotted out of the book of life. You cannot be blotted out if your not in. I know Revelation is hard to understand but that is also pretty clear.



To me Rev. 3:1-6 explains that their are few in the church of Sardis that are actual believers(truely saved), but that the rest of the church is not truely saved. Typical of what you see today in most churches. So to me Rev. 3:5 just reinterates that if you are truely a saved person than there is no chance that your name can be blotted out.

Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels."

To my knowledge, I never recall reading anything in the Bible about someones name being erased out of the Book of Life, could you give me an example of this?

On another note:
Do you believe in a Omniscient God?

If you do, then why would God give Salvation to someone and also know that that someone is going to turn his back on God in the future?


DB BB


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> Do you believe in a Omniscient God?


I don't, at least not in the way some christians believe.


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## redwards (Nov 18, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> I don't, at least not in the way some christians believe.


In what way, then?


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Snook,
> That sheads some light.  Unless I read it wrong you can loose your salvation.  But even worse "it is impossible to get it back?"



It is not impossible to get it back, what Paul is saying is if the Jewish christians revert back to the old law they cannot recieve salvation again(thru the old law) as the only way to salvation is thru Jesus Christ. 

I just used that example as one that shows you can lose your salvation.


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> To me Rev. 3:1-6 explains that their are few in the church of Sardis that are actual believers(truely saved), but that the rest of the church is not truely saved. Typical of what you see today in most churches. So to me Rev. 3:5 just reinterates that if you are truely a saved person than there is no chance that your name can be blotted out.  It doesn't say "actuall believers' it says "some HAVEN"T soiled their garments. This tells me that what he was saying in the previuos verse "go back to what you heard and believed at first: hold on to it firmly and turn to me again" was someone that also had the GARMENT of salvation but then soiled it by turning away.Then he says in verse 5 " everyone who conquers(never soiled their garment, or, did as he instructed and turned back to him) will be clothed in white,, and I will not erase his name from the book of life"
> 
> Rev. 3:5 "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will NOT blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before His angels."see above
> 
> ...



Again, this is just my humble opinion and I do not want to come across as I'm right. I do in fact enjoy discussing these things. One day I can sit with Jesus and he can let me know how much I didn't know.


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2005)

redwards said:
			
		

> In what way, then?


Well what I hear is God knows what you are going to do all your life even before you are born.  Nobody can show me that in the scriptures they just say that.  I believe God knows everything. As soon as you think something he knows it.  But I do not believe He knows when a killer is born that he is going to grow up and be a killer.  I believe we have free will.  He hopes we follow Him but does not know until we make that decission.


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2005)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> Again, this is just my humble opinion and I do not want to come across as I'm right. I do in fact enjoy discussing these things. One day I can sit with Jesus and he can let me know how much I didn't know.


I don't believe that either!!!  I am not trying to start anything just discussions!!!


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## Madsnooker (Nov 18, 2005)

BB


I don't know if I did it right or not but I responded to your questions in the previuos reply in red in your quote but it's hard to tell.


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 18, 2005)

Madsnooker,

On the case of someone loosing their salvation, until i can study this more and ask my preacher to explain it to me, I am going to have to disagree with you on loosing salvation.



			
				Madsnooker said:
			
		

> Same reason he created us even though he knew he would send some of us to big toebig toebig toebig toe to torment forever. He gives us the free gift of salvation that is not handed to us until confession and then it is also our free will to do what we want with our salvation. Some will spred the good news, some will just attend on Sunday, some may never tell others about him and then yes their are some that may turn away from his gift just as some of the early Jewish Christians did.



So you are saying that even though God knows what we are going to do, we still have free will? How is that possible if God knows what we are going to do, then this illusion of free will is just that an illusion.

What about the Elect? Are they not Predestinated?

I like discussions, it is interesting to see others points of views about the Bible, and what their belief is. That is why I share my belief, you never know when it will change someones life.

DB BB


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> That is why I share my belief, you never know when it will change someones life.
> DB BB



Or when yours will be changed!  When I think about God knowing what we will do and predestination, I think about the very begining.  Here is why I do not believe it.

When God put Adam and Eve in the garden He said do not eat the fruit of the tree.  If he knew they were going to do it then he was just really kidding around with them like you do your kids when you tell them don't eat that cookie and then walk out of the room.  No I think He was hoping they would not do it.  But that dang woman did it.

My wife always askes me where do I think men would be without women?  In the Garden of Eden I always say!


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 18, 2005)

Randy said:
			
		

> Or when yours will be changed!  When I think about God knowing what we will do and predestination, I think about the very begining.  Here is why I do not believe it.
> 
> When God put Adam and Eve in the garden He said do not eat the fruit of the tree.  If he knew they were going to do it then he was just really kidding around with them like you do your kids when you tell them don't eat that cookie and then walk out of the room.  No I think He was hoping they would not do it.  But that dang woman did it.
> 
> My wife always askes me where do I think men would be without women?  In the Garden of Eden I always say!



So you are putting limitations on God?

Here is a question for some thought...

Define God?

DB BB


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## Randy (Nov 18, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> So you are putting limitations on God?
> 
> Here is a question for some thought...
> 
> ...


Nope not putting any limitations on God.  I think that is they way He wanted it!  He wants us to have free will.  Think about it.  Even if you could control your kid's every move in life, would you really want to?


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## It's Me (Nov 19, 2005)

He clearly does want us to have, and did give us free will. It doesn't however mean that he doesn't know what we did, are doing and are going to do.



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> Nope not putting any limitations on God.  I think that is they way He wanted it!  He wants us to have free will.  Think about it.  Even if you could control your kid's every move in life, would you really want to?


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## GeauxLSU (Nov 20, 2005)

I read John 1 while in the deer stand Saturday.  If that's not clear (multiple times) I don't know what is....


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## redwards (Nov 20, 2005)

*Randy, Some of my thoughts...*



			
				Randy said:
			
		

> Well what I hear is God knows what you are going to do all your life even before you are born. Nobody can show me that in the scriptures they just say that. I believe God knows everything. As soon as you think something he knows it. But I do not believe He knows when a killer is born that he is going to grow up and be a killer.....


Randy,
Just some scriptures I am aware of and some of my thoughts. If God knew Jeremiah the way He said in the scripture below, then I believe He also knows me and everyone else in the same way. Notice in Jeremiah 1:4-6 that Jeremiah is quoting what God said to him. Just stating my belief, not trying to convince you.



> Jeremiah 1:4-6
> 
> 4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying,
> 5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
> ...


 





			
				Randy said:
			
		

> .....I believe we have free will.....


I also believe we have free will. 


			
				Randy said:
			
		

> .......He hopes we follow Him but does not know until we make that decission.


Scripture indicates that it is more than a 'hope'. It is God's desire that all persons be saved.


> 1 Timothy 2:4
> 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


The above scripture indicates such. But, He knows that some persons will reject Christ as their Savior. I believe He gives us free will in order that there will be absolutely NO EXCUSE for not accepting His free gift of eternal life. Failure to accept is totally the individual's choice.
Do I understand all this? No I don't. My finite mind cannot comprehend it, but I accept it based on faith.
Ralph


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 21, 2005)

*Doctrines of Grace*

The Doctrines of Grace

Although also referred to as The Five Points of Calvinism, these are simply five key teachings found in the Bible that were written down as articles by the Synod of Dort in 1610. This was done to counter the five articles published by the followers of a man named James Arminius that were at variance with the Bible.

These five articles underline the vitally important truth that God is in control of all things, not man; that God is the source of salvation; and that men and women can do nothing to save themselves. They glorify God, not man, and emphasise our total dependence as guilty sinners on the mercy and grace of God for salvation. It is the belief of all those who have a presence on the GraceNet site that they form the foundation of true biblical Christianity. 

The Doctrines of Grace

1. Total Depravity

The Scriptures clearly teach that the effects of sin have extended to all parts of our being, rendering us incapable of spiritual understanding and love towards God. Despite the heading of this first article, it does not indicate that all people are as wicked as they could possibly be in all areas of belief and practice. However, sin has so fully and deeply affected our lives that, spiritually speaking, we are in a totally hopeless condition, unable to do anything to get ourselves out of this fallen state.
big toebig toebig toebig toeOur natural spiritual incapacity prevents us from being able to respond by our own strength to the call of the gospel message, yet this does not remove our guilt. We choose to follow the natural inclinations of our depraved hearts because when left to ourselves that is all we want to do.

Scripture references: Ephesians 4:18; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Romans 1:30; John 15:25; Luke 19:14; John 5:40; Isaiah 5:20; Titus 1:15; Deuteronomy 32:18; Hebrews 2:1; John 12:39; John 6:44+65; John 3:18.

2. Unconditional Election

God has shown us in his Word that from eternity past he has elected some sinners to be saved from the condemnation that is justly deserved by all, purely on account of his gracious mercy and love, not because of any foreseen merits in those sinners. Because of the fact of total depravity, salvation must originate with God, and we read in the Bible that it is God's sovereign will alone that has determined the recipients of that salvation.
big toebig toebig toebig toeThis doctrine does not render God unjust, for all are guilty and all deserve to suffer God's judgement. Rather, it emphasises the grace of God by the fact that he has chosen some for salvation.

Scripture references: Psalm 65:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; Romans 9:11; Ephesians 1:4,5,9,11; Romans 11:5; Romans 9:15,23; Psalm 103:11; 1 Peter 1:2-3; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Jonah 2:9.

3. Particular Redemption (or Limited Atonement)

Put simply, Christ died only to save the elect, securing with absolute certainty their salvation. This is not to teach that there is anything lacking in the power of God, perhaps suggesting that he is not able to save all men. Rather, God's Word indicates that it was the Father's intention that his Son was to suffer and die only for his chosen people, atoning for their sins alone. Christ's atonement was limited only in extent, not in power, according to the sovereign will of God.
big toebig toebig toebig toeIn the Bible we read that the Lord's servant (Jesus) would see the results of his work (his atoning sacrifice) and "be satisfied" (Isaiah 53:11). But also, Jesus stated plainly that there are many who are heading for eternal destruction (Matthew 7:13). We can only reconcile these two statements if we understand that Christ died only for a limited number of people - for God's elect.

Scripture references: Acts 20:28; John 3:14+15; Galatians 1:4+5; Revelation 13:8; John 6:38+39; John 17:9,10+24; John 10:11; 1 Peter 2:21; Romans 5:8-10; 1 Thessalonians 1:10; Romans 8:33+34; Luke 1:68; Revelation 5:9; Isaiah 53:11.

4. Irresistible Grace

When the gospel is preached, an invitation is issued by the Lord to all people to come to him for salvation. However, as the first article clearly states, the natural state of all people renders them incapable of responding to this invitation, except to reject it. So when God calls an elect sinner to repentance and faith in Christ Jesus, he does so by sending his Holy Spirit to work a great change in that sinner's heart, enabling them to see their sin and their need of a saviour and leading them to put their faith in Christ alone for salvation. The Lord, by his Spirit, irresistably draws his elect to himself, raising them to spiritual life and making them willing to trust in Jesus.

Scripture references: Matthew 11:28-30; John 6:37; Matthew 23:37; John 5:40; Ephesians 1:12,19; Ezekiel 11:19+20; Psalm 110:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:11.

5. Perseverance of the Saints

Once God has saved elect sinners, he continues to keep and preserve them by his power and grace and will never let them go. Thus, they persevere to the end and can never be lost. If God did not do this, we would inevitably turn back again to the world, because of the sin that is around us and within us. Thus God enables his children to continue in faith and obedience throughout their earthly lives, then to pass into God's presence forever. big toebig toebig toebig toeThis doctrine is not to be taken as a license to go on sinning, as if the believer is free to act in any way he chooses now that he is eternally secure in Christ Jesus. The true believer will show signs of a growing desire for holiness and an increasing loathing of sin. The one who attempts to use the grace of God as an excuse for sinful living is in all probability not a true believer, for where there is spiritual life, the fruit of the Spirit will become evident.

Scripture references: 1 Peter 1:5; James 4:6; Philippians 1:6+19; John 6:39; John 10:28+29; Romans 8:38+39; Romans 8:8; Galatians 5:13-26.

DB BB


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## Vernon Holt (Nov 21, 2005)

Buried within the confines of the Five Points of Calvinism is the concept that man has no free will of his own.

I cannot accept this concept, which is basic to Calvinism, that the Grace of God is limited to the few individuals who God himself predestines to be saved.  In no way could I ever believe that God would limit the Saving Grace of his Son, the Christ.  Consider This:

"_This is good, and pleases God our Savior, _*who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth" *(1 Tim. 2:3-4, NIV). 
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: *if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him,* and he with me.  (Rev. 3:20)

I happen to believe that God's grace is sufficient to *seek* and to *save* that which was lost” (Luke 19:10).  This is to say that every person who is wandering in the wilderness of life has the potential to be saved.  Obviously, not all will, but the potential is there.

This is what drives the wheels of Evangelism.  Groups who believe in the concept of limited Grace, fall far short in their efforts to fullfill the Great Commission.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that *whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.*  (John 3:16)

So simple that even a child can understand!!

Vernon


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## Double Barrel BB (Nov 21, 2005)

Vernon,

How do you know that those that get Saved, were not already predestined to be saved?

In my opinion God chooses who is Saved, you can not choose to be Saved, or choose to be Unsaved. If God wants you to be Saved than you will be saved. God gives us the gift of Grace so that we can then by Faith recieve the Holy Spirit. Without that Grace(Gods Gift of Grace) you can not be saved.

Ephesions 2:8
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."

Ephesians 1:4,5,9,11

4. According as he hath *chosen us in him before the foundation of the world*, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love. 

5. Having *predistenated* us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself.

11. In whom alos we have obtained an inheritence, being *predistenated* according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

I don't believe in free will, I believe that God knows what I have done, doing right now, and what I am going to do. I can't see how someone can believe otherwise, but everyone has their own belief, and nobody can change anyone else's belief, if it is God's will then their belief will be changed regardless of what anyone says or does. To me everything is in God's will. If I were to die today on my way home from work, it is God's will. Even if I choose to go home a different way to avoid a crash, if God wants me to come Home(Heaven) there is no way I can prevent that from happening. God has the right to decide who lives, who dies, who is Saved, and who is not Saved. None of us, Saved or Not Saved, deserve anything that God gives us. It is by God's Grace that we are Saved.

DB BB


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## cpaboy (Nov 21, 2005)

*Wow DB BB*

I haven't met many Hyper-calvinists in my life but I certainly believe you are one.  My guess is that you probably attend a small primitive Baptist church.  I believe in free will b/c Rom 10:13 says that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.  It's also in Romans 8 or 9 where Paul poses this question:  Do you think a potter would create a vessel just to destroy it?  Are you saying that God allows a person to be born and has already "chosen" that they go to Hades?  This doesn't sound like a loving God to me.  God is certainly sovereign which I know you believe, but that doesn't trump his quality of Love.  

One preacher said it this way:  "It's funny how the more we tell people about Jesus, the more God chooses."


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## Madsnooker (Nov 21, 2005)

Good post Mr. Holt

DB BB

I have been out of town and also leaving again today for GA. to hunt and have Thanksgiving.    I don't have much time to respond so I will do so next week concerning this topic. Just wanted you to know so you wouldn't wonder were I went.

I enjoy having this very friendly discussion.


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## Vernon Holt (Nov 21, 2005)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> *"Vernon, how do you know that those that get Saved, were not already predestined to be saved?"*
> 
> I will answer your question in the same manner as Christ customarily did, by quoting Scripture: "He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life". (1 John 5:12)
> 
> ...


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## redwards (Nov 21, 2005)

*Double Barrel BB...*

I know this is   of the original post, but...
My belief on Predestination - God did predestine (predetermine) that the only way to be saved is through Jesus Christ.
It is a predetermined plan that anyone may be saved, but only by accepting Jesus Christ as his/her personal Savior will he/she be saved.
He (God) determined this at the very beginning, and the plan has not changed.

Why else would He say?


> Rev. 1:8 "I am the *Alpha* and the *Omega*," says the Lord God, "the One who is, who was, and who is coming, the Almighty."
> 
> Rev. 21:6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the *Alpha* and the *Omega*, the Beginning and the End. I will give to the thirsty from the spring of living water as a gift.
> 
> Rev 22:13 I am the *Alpha* and the *Omega*, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.


Is my belief right?
I don't know, and will not ever know for sure while I am in this imperfect life state. 
But God has given me a peace about it.
And I surely will not tell the next unsaved person I come in contact with that God has predetermined that he/she is not on His list of individuals to be saved.
Rather, I will share with him/her how Christ Jesus has changed my life, and I will ask him/her to please consider how He can change his/her life eternally.

Romans 10:13 reads this way.



> 13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.


If you look up the definition for everyone, you will see that it is a pronoun that has the same meaning as 'everybody'.

The definition of 'everybody' is: every person

That means to me that no one is excluded from being saved if he/she calls upon the name of the Lord, repents of his/her sins, and receives Jesus in his/her heart.

Truly, once one accepts Jesus as his/her Personal Savior, he/she becomes one of the 'elect'. The 'elect' being a child of God, adopted into His kingdom.

Paul says it well in Romans 8:15-17



> 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry out, " _Abba_, Father!"
> 16 The Spirit Himself testifies together with our spirit that we are God's children,
> 17 and if children, also heirs —heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ—seeing that we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.


Ralph


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