# All I need is the Bible.



## Madman (Nov 21, 2021)

The main things are the plain things and the plain things are the main things.

Thoughts?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 22, 2021)

Thoughts.

Occam's razor like. No wholesale metaphorically minded interpretations and discourse need apply.

I recently looked at the Apocalypse of Peter (which is not in the cannon)  as to why is was not? It is mostly metaphor of things that are not  meant as metaphors in the Old Testament. It is too over the top spiritual lingo if that is possible... It begs that the essay and points would be stated more simply.

On the other hand what would be the opposite of Occam's razor.  For example the difference of interpretation in Christianity as to what the purpose of the Church is?  Who's got the right track-- the right razor--who's got too much and who's got too little blade? Who's got it right?


I recall many yrs ago Pastor Ronny use to caution me that I put in too much in interpretations when he did bible studies here. To his chagrin perhaps, but I was not really able to appreciate where he was coming from then. I can now. Sometimes.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

g2, You are planning going much farther than I planned.  You are just looking at the western books, if we do that we would need to investigate the eastern books that dont match the common 66 in the Protestant Bible and the Coptic Bible, I am not ready for that.

I was considering a light discussion about just little old me sitting down all alone and coming to an understanding of what those 66 books reveal and if one can sit down with a Bible all alone and come to a direction in which to live life.

I say one cannot.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

I would start with the idea that if all we need is what the Bible teaches then the idea that we are able to interpret Holy Scripture is not found anywhere in Holy Scripture.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If one can't read the Bible and come up with some basic information on how to live their lives, then all hope is lost.
> 
> They may not be able to understand the depths of scripture, but if
> 
> ...


I don’t believe so, that is why Christ built his church is is not?

Is it in Scripture that we are capable of understanding?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

If we can all read Scripture and live accordingly then Matthew 5:32 should be extremely easy to understand since those words come from the mouth of Christ.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If one can't read the Bible and come up with some basic information on how to live their lives, then all hope is lost.
> 
> They may not be able to understand the depths of scripture, but if
> 
> ...


What if?  What if there was a group of men, a world wide group of men who could agree on important teachings would it be worth listening too?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> a lot of the things that Christ said and taught are not easy to understand.  He spoke in parables, and even the men that lived with him for 3 years had to have his teaching explained to them.
> 
> If you want to rely on the teachings of others to interpret the Bible, go for it.  The great thing about living in America is that you get to believe and practice your religion the way you see fit, and I get to practice mine the way I see fit.
> 
> Ain't it grand?


. Is Matthew 5:32 a parable?  It seems quit a clear teaching.

I am trying to not be so flippant, I was hoping for a serious discussion, are you interested?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

Madman said:


> What if?  What if there was a group of men, a world wide group of men who could agree on important teachings would it be worth listening too?





NE GA Pappy said:


> a lot of the things that Christ said and taught are not easy to understand.  He spoke in parables, and even the men that lived with him for 3 years had to have his teaching explained to them.
> 
> If you want to rely on the teachings of others to interpret the Bible, go for it.  The great thing about living in America is that you get to believe and practice your religion the way you see fit, and I get to practice mine the way I see fit.
> 
> Ain't it grand?


So if they are not easy to understand, should we be left to understand them ourselves?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> maybe.  Maybe not.  It depends on who they are, their background, and their biases with which they approach the subjects.
> 
> I mean there are thousands of liberals that think you shouldn't be able to own a firearm.  That doesn't make them correct


Let’s try to be reasonable.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> some things are easy to understand.
> 
> Some things require explanation and study.
> 
> ...


I would say no. But I will ask, who will teach me who the “only begotten son” is and what begotten means?  Should I know that on my own? 

What about my example?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

Where in Holy Scripture do you see that it is understandable by the average person reading on their own?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> some things are easy to understand.
> 
> Some things require explanation and study.
> 
> ...


Who helps me study?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you think I was being unreasonable?
> 
> Maybe you should become a Mormon.  Thousands of men have gotten together, formented a believe system and teach it as truth.  Perhaps you should listen to them. After all, they are not just using the Bible as their basis for beliefs either.


Yes I think you are being flippant and unreasonable.   W are not talking about taking away guns we are talking about how to interpret Holy Scripture.  

I am not Mormon for the same reason I am not Baptist, both groups decided they would formulate their own doctrine outside of Holy Scripture.

I gave you a prime example in Mathew 5:32 and you respond with Jesus is sometimes hard to understand.

I think he is very clear in that passage, and yet men choose to ignore it.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you think I was being unreasonable?
> 
> Maybe you should become a Mormon.  Thousands of men have gotten together, formented a believe system and teach it as truth.  Perhaps you should listen to them. After all, they are not just using the Bible as their basis for beliefs either.


What beliefs do I hold outside of Holy Scripture?


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Excuse me for commenting.
> 
> It won't happen again


Didn’t mean to hurt your feelings.  I apologize.

Now, will you respond to my question?


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## Waddams (Nov 22, 2021)

Madman said:


> g2, You are planning going much farther than I planned.  You are just looking at the western books, if we do that we would need to investigate the eastern books that dont match the common 66 in the Protestant Bible and the Coptic Bible, I am not ready for that.
> 
> I was considering a light discussion about just little old me sitting down all alone and coming to an understanding of what those 66 books reveal and if one can sit down with a Bible all alone and come to a direction in which to live life.
> 
> I say one cannot.



some things i think an individual can study and understand on their own. i think there's enough that's basic you can follow the right direction in life from only those things, if you live by faith that even if you don't understand the rest, you can still believe God will reveal the rest later. i see it as a measure of blind faith I guess.

however  i do think that we all need instruction in our study by others that are more grown in their faith. it can happen in sunday sermons, bible study, commentary, study guides, reading books, etc. 

An example for me is reading Arthur Pink's book about Genesis. It's probably 50 times Genesis' length. And it's full of informative commentary on the scriptures that explains how every word of Genesis points back to Jesus. Reading it was so eye opening, that being saved by faith alone was the plan all along, even in the Old Testament. I've been in church for 46 years but there are connections in that book I'd never have made myself. 

Pure self study will get you saved. But the right external instruction will deepen your faith, your love for others, your love for the Lord, and for me personally the awe of God and just how good He really is.


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## Madman (Nov 22, 2021)

Waddams said:


> some things i think an individual can study and understand on their own. i think there's enough that's basic you can follow the right direction in life from only those things, if you live by faith that even if you don't understand the rest, you can still believe God will reveal the rest later. i see it as a measure of blind faith I guess.
> 
> however  i do think that we all need instruction in our study by others that are more grown in their faith. it can happen in sunday sermons, bible study, commentary, study guides, reading books, etc.
> 
> ...


I can see that.  In fact all of Holy Scripture is a Jesus Book, even the Old Testament points to him.

Is it easier for 1 man to miss the mark or several hundred fasting and praying and meeting for weeks or months to go astray?


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## gordon 2 (Nov 23, 2021)

Madman said:


> g2, You are planning going much farther than I planned.  You are just looking at the western books, if we do that we would need to investigate the eastern books that dont match the common 66 in the Protestant Bible and the Coptic Bible, I am not ready for that.
> 
> I was considering a light discussion about just little old me sitting down all alone and coming to an understanding of what those 66 books reveal and if one can sit down with a Bible all alone and come to a direction in which to live life.
> 
> I say one cannot.




I don't think anyone serious ever said one could sit down with a Bible alone and come to a direction in which to live life. I think that all Christians would say you have to add the Holy Spirit in the studying at least and yet other things would be added like assembly, teaching and ministry of the anointed within a church context and the sacramental Church etc.

What I think you're really asking is this, ( but I might be wrong):

Can individuals left to their individual personalities alone be trusted to formulate doctrine  and do the people who cleave to them, who agree with them, and form themselves into an assembly due their agreement to doctrine,  qualify as well?

Do individual theologians with the bible alone( which is impossible) decide what is salvation, faith, sanctification, the nature of God and what Church is?


In other words are these individual's ideas for bible alone for the peoples they spawned legit.


Martin Luther.
Philipp Melanchthon.
Justus Jonas.
Martin Chemnitz.
Georg Spalatin.
Joachim Westphal.
Andreas Osiander.
Johannes Brenz.
Jean Calvin
John Smyth



Their ideas for bible alone is complex and much more than the idea of one individual sitting down with the bible to save himself as the most favorable means.

John Smyth, the person, his actions, his life, what motivated him is a good study in answering our question perhaps?


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## Madman (Nov 23, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Their ideas for bible alone is complex and much more than the idea of one individual sitting down with the bible to save himself as the most favorable means.



And yet modern Christians believe just that, that the individual can sit down and understand Holy Scripture simply by reading the text.

I enjoyed attending BSF for many years and that was the constant theme, "read your Bible, pray and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth", that has always had a very "Mormon" connotation, they say when reading the Bible the Holy Spirit will place a burning on your heart if your understanding is correct. 

And yet they all attend a Bible study, so "me and my Bible" is simply a tag line, a commercial for the modern Christian.

Certain groups chastise the Roman Catholic Church for having a magisterium, yet every Sunday morning those same individuals sit at the feet of the "living magisterium" of their particular church and are in awe of his brilliance at dissecting the Word.  that is until he steps on their toes with a sermon on divorce, etc.

The argument is "if it is not in the Bible then it is wrong" yet the very cautions which are most clear they negate as not understandable.

I will Give you an example: 

First I will put forth the argument that Holy Scripture was put in the care of the Church and the Church has been the custodian of the same for 1600+ years, and therefore should be able to provide valid interpretations of the same.

This is seen in Holy Scripture in Acts where Philip meets the Eunuch.

Acts 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Holy Scripture gives an example of the need for guidance from the Church.

An example, that I believe should give everyone one caution is 2 Peter 3:15,17

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

The warning is that others teach "to their own destruction" and we need to be aware "lest you also be lead away".

I believe Holy Scripture is very clear about who we listen too for our doctrine and yet some will follow any man or woman who provides a message that sounds good to an "itching ear".

Let the excuses and interpretations abound.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2021)

Paul was a prophet given wisdom to read scripture and teach us what it said. How do we know a world wide group of men were given that same wisdom? Those men given that wisdom is not scriptural but Paul being given that wisdom is.


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## Madman (Nov 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Those men given that wisdom is not scriptural but Paul being given that wisdom is.


Sure it is.

See Paul and Timothy, the very definition of apostolic succession.  Why would Christ start a Church and then not provide a way for it to properly continue until his return?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2021)

Madman said:


> Sure it is.
> 
> See Paul and Timothy, the very definition of apostolic succession.  Why would Christ start a Church and then not provide a way for it to properly continue until his return?


I'm not really up on apostolic succession. I'll have to learn more about it. Paul was chosen by Jesus. Did Paul choose Timothy? I was gonna argue that God chooses His Apostles but perhaps apostles choose apostles which, I assume is the "succession."

I don't see anything in scripture than anyone nowadays are elected by God for teaching us. Although I've heard some preachers refer to it as a "calling." Yet that would be from God and not man.

What would be some good verses that show men choosing men and that this selection was suppose to be a succession to this very day?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2021)

I'm assuming Timothy was an apostle or at least an "apostolic deacon" chosen by God through Paul. 
Casting lots confuses me as it makes me think there is free will but yet I know that God is sovereign. Therefore when a new pope is chosen, it's really God's choice.


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## Madman (Nov 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not really up on apostolic succession. I'll have to learn more about it. Paul was chosen by Jesus. Did Paul choose Timothy? I was gonna argue that God chooses His Apostles but perhaps apostles choose apostles which, I assume is the "succession."
> 
> I don't see anything in scripture than anyone nowadays are elected by God for teaching us. Although I've heard some preachers refer to it as a "calling." Yet that would be from God and not man.
> 
> What would be some good verses that show men choosing men and that this selection was suppose to be a succession to this very day?



1 Tim. 4: 13 Until I arrive, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhorting, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.

2 Tim. 1:6  For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2021)

Madman said:


> 1 Tim. 4: 13 Until I arrive, give attention to the public reading of scripture, to exhorting, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, which was given to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
> 
> 2 Tim. 1:6  For this reason I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of my hands;


Were those elders that laid hands apostles?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 23, 2021)

The event occurred at the same time the young evangelist was appointed to a ministry by an eldership. It was “with [_meta_] the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” A.T. Robertson observes that _meta_ “does not express instrument or means, but merely accompaniment” (_Word Pictures in the New Testament_, Vol.IV, p. 581). Timothy’s miraculous gift actually came “through [dia] the laying on of [Paul’s] hands” (2 Timothy 1:6). 
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1072-1-timothy-4-14-timothys-gift-and-the-elders


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## Madman (Nov 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were those elders that laid hands apostles?


The word used is presbytery or clergy.


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## Madman (Nov 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> The event occurred at the same time the young evangelist was appointed to a ministry by an eldership. It was “with [_meta_] the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.” A.T. Robertson observes that _meta_ “does not express instrument or means, but merely accompaniment” (_Word Pictures in the New Testament_, Vol.IV, p. 581). Timothy’s miraculous gift actually came “through [dia] the laying on of [Paul’s] hands” (2 Timothy 1:6).
> https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1072-1-timothy-4-14-timothys-gift-and-the-elders


I am not sure what Mr Jackson is trying to convey,  it seems that the laying on of hands gave some gift but fails to describe the gift,  the gift if it could so be called today was to be consecrated a bishop.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 24, 2021)

Madman said:


> And yet modern Christians believe just that, that the individual can sit down and understand Holy Scripture simply by reading the text.
> 
> I enjoyed attending BSF for many years and that was the constant theme, "read your Bible, pray and the Holy Spirit will reveal the truth", that has always had a very "Mormon" connotation, they say when reading the Bible the Holy Spirit will place a burning on your heart if your understanding is correct.
> 
> ...



I think that the great disappointment of the Brownists, Baptists and Puritans in the 1600s was that the Church of England (which was part of the Reformation and political) was turning around and telling believers what to believe and was intolerant of factions which toyed with separation from the Church of England or the state or separation of church and state.

Their fight was not a fight over the bible alone--- it was a fight over an authentic church, one that was not defiled by politics or politicians, king, and ministers who would unite the people via the enterprise of the state church.

Giving the bible the say is the rampart of the congregationalist ( bible alone) in a match of wills between their understanding  of authentic church and  the state's via the state sanctioned denomination. In other words the COE was just another RCC tyrant. The dissenters were no fans of King James.

  Serious separation of Church and State, then via the Church of England and what the dissenters believed was authentic church is the real reason for bible alone. The Roman Catholic and Anglican Churches were great disappointments.

The bible alone as rampart is a hard rampart to abandon in the psychology of people who see necessary a division of church and state if authentic church and spiritual life as a Christian is to be. It will  also serve well to deflect what is really the motivation which was people sick and tired of their government's interference in their spiritual lives.

We seem to think that these people were emigrants because they were persecuted, and they were, but they were also emigrants because they could flee government overreach. Their psychologies were so strong that they are still with us and in many cases made us who we are.

Now the question today might be we who are their heirs are we promoters of authentic church? Have we become in some ways what we emigrated so to avoid? And if we have become this, what we sought to avoid,  then the bible alone did not save us. But the bible alone was never our sole motivation to action--authentic church was.


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## Madman (Nov 24, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> I think that the great disappointment of the Brownists, Baptists and Puritans in the 1600s was that the Church of England (which was part of the Reformation and political) was turning around and telling believers what to believe and was intolerant of factions which toyed with separation from the Church of England or the state or separation of church and state.
> 
> Their fight was not a fight over the bible alone--- it was a fight over an authentic church, one that was not defiled by politics or politicians, king, and ministers who would unite the people via the enterprise of the state church.
> 
> ...



There is no doubt when men believe themselves to be in charge they have the fantastic ability to ruin things.  Henry co-opted the church in the isles and put his name on it, while it may have sullied the name the proper worship continued.  The Church in the west, the RCs, as in the popes, stepped in during times of Royal unrest, and may have attempted to usurp power even after civil reinstatement, but the worship and doctrine remained.

Everyone loves to attack the Romans because they have heard from their pulpits that the pope is is the Antichrist etc, etc, but they really know nothing of the Romans except what they read on the internet.
However they fail to ask the questions or condemn the Orthodox, or the Coptic, or the Ethiopian Church.   All they know is what “the Bible says” or better yet “what they think the Bible says”.

I would argue Sola Scriptura has been adopted because it frees men from the authority that Christ put in place for the Christian when he ascended,  it makes them their own authority, and in some instances it make them Pope.

Calvin traveled with his own executioner, better not cross him.

Protestant denominations are as fraught with power hungry men as anyone else, only they have no means of restraint.  The Protestant simply moves across the road and names himself pastor.  At least the Church has means of discipline and “setting him out of the Church for the sake of his soul”.

Martin Luther, arguably in his madness, believed himself, alone, to change the canon of Holy Scripture, he saw some priests not behaving priestly, and wanted the priesthood abolished.  

Let’s go down the list of the twisting and turning of Holy Scripture performed by Protestant leaders in an attempt to draw followers.  Mormons, Jesus only denominations, and others are simply Protestants who went a little too far, unfortunately the Church had been so fractured by Protestantism there was no mechanism to reign them in.

Reformation is always needed but the reformers did none of that, they convinced people to follow them for the sake power, at least when there is a world wide church there stands a ray of hope that Christ will maintain a remnant, one that worship him alone, and prepare his people for his return.

It breaks my heart when I hear people talk about RCs, it is from pure ignorance that they speak, it breaks my heart that those without priests do not have the sacraments available, the graces of God that help navigate this realm, and most of all I shudder that my Protestant brothers can be so hateful to their brothers in Christ.
I weep that Gods children are not of one mind.

It is beautiful to others in the ancient faith.   About a year ago I got to the office around 5:00 am, to find a courier driver, in a van praying in the cab, his prayer book in hand.

When he can in the office we got to talking, foolish me believed him to be Muslim, about the fact that he was having morning prayer.  Turns out he was an Ethiopian Christian.  We had the most WONDERFUL conversation and he was amazed when I handed him my 1928 BCP to see that it followed the same outline only varied due to cultural references.

I had a friend invite me to a Messianic Jewish service, even though the service was in Hebrew I knew exactly what was going on and where we were in the service.

During our discussion later he told me that the service, up to the reading of the Gospel followed pretty much Jewish temple worship, with the reading of the scripture and the prayers, that has been followed for centuries, perhaps to the time of Christ.

no, I don’t believe it was a reformation, it was schism, a divorce celebrated by Protestants every year as their Independence Day from something they no longer know anything about.  

 As I said,  I weep.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 28, 2021)

Madman said:


> Who helps me study?


The Spirit. We tend to complicate the relational purpose of the bible methinks. 

1 Corinthians 2:12 _What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us._ 

When the Spirit of truth comes, _He will guide you into all the truth_.  John 16:13 

The Spirit is referred to below as the "anointing",
1 John 2:27 As for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as His anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, you remain in Him. 

Maybe we see scripture, not as a how to volume, but a knowing Christ within/Spirit volume, cherishing the One who lives in us, who even says that by His Spirit He leads us, even _besides still waters_, for, "_I will give them rest._"


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## Madman (Nov 28, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> The Spirit. We tend to complicate the relational purpose of the bible methinks.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 2:12 _What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us._
> 
> ...


Then why are there so many different interpretations and so many different Protestant denominations?  Is the Holy Spirit teaching some incorrectly?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2021)

Madman said:


> Then why are there so many different interpretations and so many different Protestant denominations?  Is the Holy Spirit teaching some incorrectly?


Good point, I've asked this same question myself.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 28, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> The Spirit. We tend to complicate the relational purpose of the bible methinks.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 2:12 _What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us._
> 
> ...


Was John himself not a human teacher?


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## StriperAddict (Nov 28, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was John himself not a human teacher?


Yes, as Paul, Barnabas, Peter, etc.  

Their (and our) reliance on the Holy Spirit is key.

This is missing today, we're prone to delve into traditions, church orthodoxy and the time length our institutions have been in place to guide collective thinking, even in interpretation. The danger is that unchecked traditions and dead orthodoxy can lead many to miss the simple message of the gospel. Those distractions are prevalent in Protestant and Catholic and other denominational assemblies ... but God (Selah) IS still building His church!

Example:
Even being a Jew of the tribe of Benjamin, knowing the Jewish roots and customs of his Hebrew upbringing, Paul said the following:
Phil 3:4-9
4 although I myself _could boast as_ having confidence even in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he is confident in the flesh, I _have_ more _reason_: 
5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 
6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the Law, found blameless.

\/ ... Here's the interpretive kicker!

7 But whatever things were gain to me, these things I have _*counted as loss because of Christ*_. 
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss [b]in view of the surpassing value of [c]knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, [d]for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and _*count them mere rubbish, so that I may gain Christ*_, 
9 and may be found in Him, _*not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ*_, the righteousness which _comes_ from God on the basis of faith.

Questions worth asking for scripture interpretation; does it lead us to Christ? Do the gleanings of the word have us honor the death, burial and resurrection, or, our own efforts at holiness and sanctification? Does it lead us to the understanding that Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith, and the One whose (new) Covenant cannot be broken between Himself and Father?  

Does it lead us to conclude that, apart from Christ we can teach and literally DO nothing? 

Having begun by the Spirit we need not be perfected by the flesh, or the myriad of histories and traditions we espouse as great as the role of the Spirit Himself.

It's not the traditions, it's the filling rabbi, the filling! 

2 Tim. 4:2-5

*Some _*emphasis mine*_.


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## Madman (Nov 28, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Yes, as Paul, Barnabas, Peter, etc.
> 
> Their (and our) reliance on the Holy Spirit is key.
> 
> This is missing today, we're prone to delve into traditions, church orthodoxy and the time length our institutions have been in place to guide collective thinking, even in interpretation. The danger is that unchecked traditions and dead orthodoxy can lead many to miss the simple message of the gospel. Those distractions are prevalent in Protestant and Catholic and other denominational assemblies ... but God (Selah) IS still building His church!



I have yet to understand how there can be 20,000 Christian denominations in all we need is what the Holy Spirit reveals to each of us.

Christ speaks against divorce, lots of Christian folk get divorced, apparently the Holy Spirit provides the needed interpretation.

Every man believes he understands, Peter says differently.

2 Peter 3:16


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## brutally honest (Nov 28, 2021)

Madman said:


> Christ speaks against divorce, lots of Christian folk get divorced, apparently the Holy Spirit provides the needed interpretation.




Apparently, He also told the charismatics that speaking in tongues is totally cool, but he told the Baptists it's not.


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## Madman (Nov 28, 2021)

brutally honest said:


> Apparently, He also told the charismatics that speaking in tongues is totally cool, but he told the Baptists it's not.


And herein lies my very serious questions.  If what SA is saying is so, how does one know if the man they are listening too is correct, what if he is like one 2 Peter 3:16 warns about.  

There is a history and a tradition that needs to be looked into.

I have yet to see anything taught by the world wide Catholic Church to be contrary to Holy Scripture.  But I have seen many things taught by men to be contrary to Holy Scripture.

“The Church to teach, the Bible to prove.”


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## StriperAddict (Nov 29, 2021)

Madman said:


> Every man believes he understands, Peter says differently.
> 
> 2 Peter 3:16



Note Peter directs his rebuke towards *ignorant and unstable people*, who distort Paul's gospel of grace thru faith. This is NOT directed towards the body of Christ, those who are born of and sealed of the Holy Spirit.



Madman said:


> I have yet to see anything taught by the world wide Catholic Church to be contrary to Holy Scripture.


Try to find Paul discussing Purgatory in the context of the new covenant for starts. 
See 2 Cor 5:1-5 
And ... To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. A holding cell for behavioral and sin purging isn't found anywhere in scripture. Scripture says, *Be*loved, now are *we* the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what *we* *shall* *be*: but *we* know that, when he *shall* appear, *we*_ *shall* *be* *like* *him*; for *we* *shall* see *him* as he is_. The reference here follows what the bible says about our new resurrection body. 
See also 1 Cor 15:42-43, 
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown [p]a perishable _body_, it is raised [q]an imperishable _body_; 43 it is sown in dishonor,* it is raised in glory*; it is sown in weakness, it is *raised in power* (*emphasis *mine)
2 Cor. 5:5  Now the one _*who has fashioned us for this very purpose*_ is *God*, who _*has given us the Spirit as a deposit*_, *guaranteeing what is to come.* 

Rather than get in a tug of war over Catholic doctrines let's consider the influence of the Spirit, or walking in the Spirit, which Paul makes a big deal over in several letters. 
1 Cor 2:12 Now _*we have not received the spirit of the world*_, but *the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God*.

If such Spirit leadership and filling makes the liturgists uncomfortable, so be it. Yet this is the very core of walking in the free gift of eternal life and of the grace of God.


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## Madman (Nov 29, 2021)

There are more but here is one,

1 Corinthians 3:11-15
For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble—each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

no Christian sect has ever denied this speaking of God testing the works of someone after death.


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## Madman (Nov 29, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Note Peter directs his rebuke towards *ignorant and unstable people*, who distort Paul's gospel of grace thru faith. This is NOT directed towards the body of Christ, those who are born of and sealed of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> Try to find Paul discussing Purgatory in the context of the new covenant for starts.
> ...


Peter is warning Christians against following those who pervert the Gospel, the same Gospel was preached for 1500 hundred years and when the heretics arose the Church the defended the faith. 

Absent with the body present with the Lord does not define where the Lord is, however we do know from Holy Scripture that God cannot look upon sin, so there needs to be some final touch up.
Rev. 21:27 “Nothing unclean shall enter into heaven.”

Is the idea of an after death refining in conflict with the Bible?  Please show me where.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 30, 2021)

Madman said:


> Rev. 21:27 “Nothing unclean shall enter into heaven.”
> 
> Is the idea of an after death refining in conflict with the Bible?  Please show me where.


Correct, Nothing will enter unclean. A believer is indwelt by the Spirit of the living God, God doesn't occupy a house without purging the internal heart and Spirit of all sin. He does this by killing the sinner. The old has passed, the new has come! 
What is left is for us to know is just who has recreated us and made us new. It's not boastful, it is ALL His doing, the cross worked!  Being born of the Spirit and walking  in the Spirit is the result.  Changing behavior(s) from old false beliefs come from the renewing of our minds. Those who struggle with their righteous identity, the scriptures say, have forgotten their purification. 

Theres many examples of believers arriving in heaven at death ready for glory, no purging req'd.  The most popular of this is at the cross, Christ said it is finished, which was after he honoured the faith of the thief next to Him, saying, THIS day you WILL be with me in paradise. 

Again, the Spirit's work is an inside job. Our hearts want truth because Christ is the truth, and the way and the Life. If we take our thinking through the promises of the New Covenant, the cross and the resurrection, then the scriptures will indeed be made more clear. That also is God's work within every believer by His Spirit that lives within us.


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## Madman (Nov 30, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Those who struggle with their righteous identity, the scriptures say, have forgotten their purification.


We are not discussing scruples, however history does show that Martin Luther suffered terribly from scruples and never felt at peace with God.



StriperAddict said:


> many examples of believers arriving in heaven at death ready for glory, no purging req'd.  The most popular of this is at the cross, Christ said it is finished, which was after he honoured the faith of the thief next to Him, saying, THIS day you WILL be with me in paradise.


May be purgatory for the thief.  Those who die in perfect friendship with God do not go to purgatory, doubt there are very many of them.  I'd like to see who you are referencing.

So you have not sinned since you received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?  I know I have sinned since my baptism, what would have happened to me if I had been dilled before I could have asked for forgiveness? 



StriperAddict said:


> "Those who struggle with their righteous identity, the scriptures say, have forgotten their purification."


Is there a specific passage you are referring too?[/QUOTE]


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## StriperAddict (Dec 1, 2021)

Madman said:


> So you have not sinned since you received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit?  I know I have sinned since my baptism, what would have happened to me if I had been dilled before I could have asked for forgiveness?


[/QUOTE]
We all stumble in many ways, Christ has dealt with each, and renews our thinking to see the cure living in us. 

You have just make the gospel of no effect, and it becomes harder, Saints who having to have perfect memory of all their sins and confessing each and every one before leaving earth to glory. There's condemnation at the very core of such a statement/message. And yet the gospel tells us that we have peace with God thru our Lord Jesus Christ. 

Your Gospel isn't one of good news, it's of guilt, shame and religious exhaustion. And not an ounce of dependence and reliance on the Holy Spirit that lives in and thru us is evident. And religious guilt manipulates many to be under the very doctrines that prevent walking in the power and grace of the Spirit of God. 


Romans 5:1 
and,
By ONE offering He HAS perfected all whom the cross and resurrection has set apart for Himself. (My paraphrase).

Growing up in the faith of Christ and in ones righteous transformation and identity leads to less sinning, and more bearing the fruit of the Spirit, that's the inheritance of those who are SEALED and INDWELT by the Spirit. 

Look up "forgotten his purification" from bible gateway for that one verse's reference. 

More later. 

"Peace I LEAVE with you" ... Jesus.


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## Madman (Dec 1, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> We all stumble in many ways, Christ has dealt with each, and renews our thinking to see the cure living in us.



Stumble?  Is that a nice way of saying sin?  When we sin we are called to repent and return to God.  Sin is very real, it destroys the Christian witness and to flippantly brush it aside is potentially very foolish.



StriperAddict said:


> You have just make the gospel of no effect, and it becomes harder, Saints who having to have perfect memory of all their sins and confessing each and every one before leaving earth to glory. There's condemnation at the very core of such a statement/message. And yet the gospel tells us that we have peace with God thru our Lord Jesus Christ.


Oh contraire.  Your argument is that all have peace with God which simply is not so, only those who choose peace have it.  God is reconciling the world to himself, he is changing the human heart of those who desire to be changed.  Sanctification is not a one time event, even though many protestants believe it is, it is a continual process, as Paul says; "moving from perfection to perfection".
The Our Father that Christ taught us to pray; "forgive us our trespasses" is meant to show that we know our sin and wish to be forgiven.


StriperAddict said:


> Your Gospel isn't one of good news, it's of guilt, shame and religious exhaustion. And not an ounce of dependence and reliance on the Holy Spirit that lives in and thru us is evident. And religious guilt manipulates many to be under the very doctrines that prevent walking in the power and grace of the Spirit of God.



The Gospel of Jesus is not a Gospel of shame, it is an understanding of the fall and our propensity to stray from God's way, yet when we do, we return, just like the prodigal son.

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us _our_ sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

There is a big portion of the Gospel that you are missing, the fact that Holy Spirit brings sin to our mind so that we have the ability to ask for forgiveness.
The non-believer does not know his sin and you gloss over yours.


StriperAddict said:


> Romans 5:1
> and,
> By ONE offering He HAS perfected all whom the cross and resurrection has set apart for Himself. (My paraphrase).



Yes that is your paraphrase and it needs to be placed in context.
Romans 5:1-2 Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God. 

Your interpretation of Romans 5:1 leaves one with the belief that all sin, past, present, and future are forgiven at the point of saving faith, but that does not appear anywhere in Holy Scripture, in fact 1 John 1:8-9, as noted above, states just the opposite.   The teaching leaves the listener to believe that once they "confess Christ" then they can live as the please.

The passage in context points us to the HOPE of a future glory not a surety. 



StriperAddict said:


> Growing up in the faith of Christ and in ones righteous transformation and identity leads to less sinning, and more bearing the fruit of the Spirit, that's the inheritance of those who are SEALED and INDWELT by the Spirit.


It certainly should, however that is not necessarily true.  Some of us become more attuned to those things that are sinful in the eyes of God and, after repenting, begin to direct our lives in a proper direction.

Ephesians 4 warns the follower of Christ about sin in the life of the believer, and we know that it is the believer he is speaking of since he says their "sins" will grieve the Holy Spirit, therefore we know that even those who are marked with the Holy Spirit can sin and therefor should repent.



StriperAddict said:


> Look up "forgotten his purification" from bible gateway for that one verse's reference.


Can't find it.



StriperAddict said:


> More later.
> 
> "Peace I LEAVE with you" ... Jesus.


Thank you but you have still not addressed the questions.
I am looking forward to it.

Saved, Sanctified, and on the way to heaven is a very dangerous and also anti-Biblical, doctrine.


----------



## Madman (Dec 1, 2021)

Israel said:


> It was a teacher who wrote:
> 
> But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
> 
> Few perhaps know the joy of being relieved of all making of themselves necessary to, or for others. There is but one necessary One...and of such is the Church...who are learning this.


Then there be no need for the Church, Which "Christ built", nor sermons, nor teachers.  We simply asked for the Holy Spirit and we know all?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2021)

Madman said:


> Then there be no need for the Church, Which "Christ built", nor sermons, nor teachers.  We simply asked for the Holy Spirit and we know all?


  Jesus Christ said, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of he11 shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Please note that He said "church," not "churches." Also He said the "gates of he11 shall not prevail against it." The church that Jesus Christ established must therefore still be in this world, or else Jesus must have been mistaken. The only way a church can be identified is by its doctrine and practice.


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## Madman (Dec 1, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus Christ said, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of he11 shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Please note that He said "church," not "churches." Also He said the "gates of he11 shall not prevail against it." The church that Jesus Christ established must therefore still be in this world, or else Jesus must have been mistaken. The only way a church can be identified is by its doctrine and practice.


Then what is that Church?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 1, 2021)

Israel said:


> "If I be not an apostle to others..." was said in part by Paul.
> 
> If I be not an apostle to others...what a strange thing to consider today...where most of what would be called christendom would (seem to) acknowledge a calling of generality to all the Church in Paul. And though I do not argue against it...still...one must enter a curious place if left to the decisions/choices/assessments of others for agreement.
> 
> ...




Is at some point belief, as stated above, a work and a work not for God but a work for man.  I can believe that Jesus is and not do the work of God. I can also separately believe what he preached in full, in part  or of little application in the here and know.

To believe what he preached in full is/was a grand departure from the paradigm man had lived and still lives in some cases.

Love God with all your heart and treat others with respect is a grand departure from the raiding culture and politics of the last 50M yrs.

To forgive others as God forgives is mostly insanity throughout human history, yet this is the work God sets before man through JC.

The meek will inherit the earth? Do you believe THAT!?

To do the work of God do we have to believe this:

"So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen."


???

The folk Jesus was ministering to lived in real time the events of an in your face raider culture via the Roman Empire with all its political, social ( justice-injustices) and spiritual implications. Some in the Jewish camp did the best with the hand they were dealt, but some were sell outs and benefited from the raider's hegemony.

In the last 500 yrs of Christians history... have some Christians, even in the name of Christ, benefitted from the raiding cultures of their times? Colonial competition of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, the proxy wars of the 20th century, the cults of national superiority cultivated to indoctrinate a raider mindset in nations... are all Christian.  WE  believe in Jesus and in what he did, but really what he said was/is a way of life ignored-- because raiding has been man's way of life since recorded history?

Do you believe in what Jesus said  or in  making disciples who are saved regardless of the disciplines Jesus pointed to? This is a question I check myself with.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 1, 2021)

Madman said:


> Then what is that Church?


That quote was from a Primitive Baptist Church but they don't believe they are the "only" Church of the true Church that Jesus built. 

  " Some people accuse Primitive Baptists of being narrow in thinking their church to be the true church, but let us examine this. We know of no group claiming to be a Christian Church who would not believe their church to be a part of the true church. Any person would be most insincere if he or she did not believe his or her church to be a part of the true church. Jesus Christ built only one church. If every group believes itself to be the true church, it would be just as narrow in its thinking as Primitive Baptists. To any reader we would say that if you are in a church not holding to the truth of God's Word, you should seek one that is."


http://atlantaprimitivebaptistchurch.org/Questions.htm


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## StriperAddict (Dec 1, 2021)

Madman said:


> Then there be no need for the Church, Which "Christ built", nor sermons, nor teachers.  We simply asked for the Holy Spirit and we know all?


The need of the church is in edification of the body, the indwelt members, all having gifts from God... which are without repentance, meaning that they/we all serve a purpose in God's building, His habitation, which went from a structure (Old covenant) to the new heart of every child of God (Entirely new covenant, God creating the new heart in every believer that long ago David begged God for). 
Yet God is still the master builder, and Christ the author (Alpha) and finisher (Omega) of our faith. 

What is abandoned in your discussion is the role of that same Spirit in the resurrection life of this same body, almost as if you beseech the body to go forward in their own self sufficiency. A form of godliness but denying the power thereof, the resurrection life we have in the Spirit by grace thru faith, not of our doing. 

I'll bring answers to your other specific notes this weekend when a computer and resources are more available. A phone is not a good means here when myriads of ads pop in to steal the space.


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2021)

Israel said:


> The _Church is _all who are being taught of the Spirit...and given to recognizing that in each other. It is not whether the Church is necessary (for anything) as a man might determine, but that she is in the earth (and sent into it) as the Lord's continuing presence to the end. She is the remnant that testifies of the Lord's truth and eternal life in the midst of _all opposition._



Technically the church is made up only of those baptized.

For the spreading of the gospel there needs to be proper teaching and training for the ministry.

Poor training leads to poor teaching.


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## BeerThirty (Dec 3, 2021)

I have seen some Christians live their lives fairly recklessly, led by their faith in God that he will provide no matter what. Does a believer truly and exclusively need nothing but the Bible, or is our God-given authority to make human decisions also part of the equation?


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2021)

BeerThirty said:


> I have seen some Christians live their lives fairly recklessly, led by their faith in God that he will provide no matter what. Does a believer truly and exclusively need nothing but the Bible, or is our God-given authority to make human decisions also part of the equation?



We have all seen the times when something has been asked of a Christian and they respond, I’ll pray about that.

Should a Christian not have already spent so much time in prayer that most decisions can be made relatively easily?  Should they not be so steeped in Holy Scripture that most decisions are relatively simple?

Perhaps the fall has so clouded the human mind that even most Christians struggle with right and wrong or good and evil.


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## BeerThirty (Dec 3, 2021)

Madman said:


> We have all seen the times when something has been asked of a Christian and they respond, I’ll pray about that.
> 
> Should a Christian not have already spent so much time in prayer that most decisions can be made relatively easily?  Should they not be so steeped in Holy Scripture that most decisions are relatively simple?
> 
> Perhaps the fall has so clouded the human mind that even most Christians struggle with right and wrong or good and evil.



Perhaps. I'm not sure that even the most faithful Christians pray about every humanly decision they make, however. It's just not practical. 

I have a couple examples in mind:

I know one particular person who is nearing retirement. They've failed miserably at planning from a financial perspective and want to retire early. Said person openly acknowledges that they shouldn't retire early yet looks the other way with somewhat of a carefree response "the Lord will provide". I know the Lord does provide, but to rely on Him so blindly while we have certain earthly responsibilities seems foolish.

Another example is COVID. I know I'm probably opening a can here, but I personally know of an older gentleman who died from COVID and was very vocal about his faith in God offering protection to him. Was he misled, did he misunderstand the Bible, or did he die exactly as God intended (which contradicts his belief)?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 3, 2021)

Israel said:


> Every believer has an undeniable access _to all of God's provision._
> 
> We just learn this as surely includes discipline and chastening according to His providence.




Can you explain this? a bit more? At first glance this seems impossible to me... but who is me to trust in what seems at first glance? So can you explain this a bit more?

Is it ok that our provisions be different? In my estimation though we might have access to all provision, ( which I now doubt) we don't seek similar provisions nor would care to be provisioned with the other's stores? We walk in Christ with comforts very different so to salve ourselves in our suffering--though we both cleave to Him-- one as perhaps a bit ahead of Him and one as a bit behind.

My comfort is food. Where I get mine is very comfortable. Is it for you similar though you do not have the same food? My food comes from the Church that lays its hands on bread and wine and so these elements become one substance Holy which is my food? Is your food Holy?

How is it for you? Does God feed you as he does me?

" I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it."

Do the saints march on their bellies as soldiers do, as armies are fed. Or are we lined up against an enemy some to fall, some to gain the barricades because we are drilled to be brothers in arms? Though we walk by faith and in the Spirit, it is not faith that walks nor our spirit, it is limbs that flex. How do you feed yours spiritually. What are your provisions? You stores are secure?

Where the grapes of wrath are stored seems so far away from where I feed. You?


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2021)

BeerThirty said:


> Perhaps. I'm not sure that even the most faithful Christians pray about every humanly decision they make, however. It's just not practical.
> 
> I have a couple examples in mind:
> 
> ...



My point is, the Christian life should involve often if not continuous prayer and therefore one should be prepared to make most decisions on relatively short notice, however, I have discovered that most do not and cannot.  Many Christians simply try to find a verse that fits their situation, proof text, and claim God's blessing on their decision, your "God will provide" example.

This happens in life choices and theological interpretations.


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Is it for you similar though you do not have the same food? My food comes from the Church that lays its hands on bread and wine and so these elements become one substance Holy which is my food?


Yes



gordon 2 said:


> Is your food Holy?


It is truly Holy Food, "This is my body".  In the Our Father the word used, commonly translated as daily" is epiousios.  This word is used nowhere else in Holy Scripture, in fact it is nowhere else in Greek writings, was it used by the inspired writer to convey something more.  When "daily" is referenced elsewhere the word used is hemeran meaning "the day".

There are apparently a couple of different possibilities in this word with _epi_- having the meaning of "for" and _ousia_ having the meaning "the being", however, St. Jerome (around 400 AD) used another possible translation, in the Vulgate, of which might make more sense.

He used the possible translation of epi, which can translate as "super" and ousios which can  translate as "substance". 

Give us this day our _super substantial_ bread. 

The inspired writer used a word that is nowhere else in the Greek lexicon to describe what bread we are asking the Father to provide.  Super Substantia, Holy.

I would add that translations closer to the writing may be closer to the writer's intent, as languages do evolve.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 3, 2021)

Madman said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> It is truly Holy Food, "This is my body".  In the Our Father the word used, commonly translated as daily" is epiousios.  This word is used nowhere else in Holy Scripture, in fact it is nowhere else in Greek writings, was it used by the inspired writer to convey something more.  When "daily" is referenced elsewhere the word used is hemeran meaning "the day".
> ...




This is very informative. I like your idea that words in translation might be used according to their definition or use in the times they were transcribed--because of course words and language use changes with time.

And super substantial bread is really a great way of describing the transformed elements of our communion.

So this is what I understood. In the Our Father prayer... the words "give us this day our daily bread" does not mean sufficient wheat to make pasta or breads  or cakes in order that our bodies might not starve, but rather " give to us, ( who we are) which includes our bodies and our spirituality  or our physicality and our spirituality as us, this day and every day food or  sustenance  directly from yourself. Yourself or you  is with meaning that it is food from God and so from His being directly given.

Just as a person or persons is/are anointed with the laying of hands and is deemed a new being spiritually--sometimes said Holy, so is the bread and wine by the laying of the hands a new substance and is Holy. Although the elements of wine and bread remain as such, they are now the true food and drink of the saints fitted  to the need of life and therefore true food for the living.

PS. This is a bit off topic... best get back to the bible as topic.


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2021)

Israel said:


> I can only live by what I am told is my food.


 We are in 100% agreement.
John 6:55 "For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink."




Israel said:


> Paul's rebuke of "their" coming together for the worse...and not the better...was it at all in mention of anything procedural...technical?


I am not sure of this reference, but if it is in regards to chastising those about the meal the topic there was real food that was eaten after worship was over.




Israel said:


> "Technically you need a member of the clergy present to officiate"?


You need more than clergy, you need a Bishop in apostolic succession, or a priest in apostolic succession to whom the Bishop has given authority.

Or



Israel said:


> As implied in regards to baptism...technically the one performing the dipping has power to make it efficacious regardless of all else?


Anyone can baptize so long as a human is being baptized, using water, for the purpose of what it is meant, and done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

BTW weddings do not need a priest, only a witness.  The bride and groom are the officiants.




Israel said:


> For, if so, and necessary...and then "done" accordingly...all matter of attitude toward "it" (the Lord's supper) is moot.


I would need clarification on this.



Israel said:


> It wasn't a rebuke of technique, nor especially a correction that the sharing of a meal together as the church (which has morphed into something else entirely) was at issue of "not being the 'real' Lord's supper"...but that such self interest was wantonly on display. And that in so doing the plain lack of discerning the Lord's body (not a host nor cracker) was being despised.


Apples and oranges.  There is a big difference in "the meal" and the Mass.  If the eucharist is nothing more than a cracker and juice, or a bologna sandwich, why would the author of 1 Corinthians warn "For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves." 

Could it be a magic cracker or maybe it is more.

As Flannery O'Conner once wrote:

"Well, toward morning the conversation turned on the Eucharist, which I, being the Catholic, was obviously supposed to defend. Mrs. Broadwater said when she was a child and received the Host, she thought of it as the Holy Ghost, He being the ‘most portable’ person of the Trinity; now she thought of it as a symbol and implied that it was a pretty good one. I then said, in a very shaky voice, *‘Well, if it’s a symbol, to he11 with it.’* That was all the defense I was capable of but I realize now that this is all I will ever be able to say about it, outside of a story, except that *it is the center of existence for me; all the rest of life is expendable.”*


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## Madman (Dec 3, 2021)

Israel said:


> The reality of Jesus Christ is all _that is not magic_, beneath, nor beyond it.


So correct, it is his body, soul, and divinity.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 4, 2021)

Biblical reasoning vs Traditional ( apostolic succession) reasoning... could there be such a thing? If there is such a thing is there a bridge between both reasonings? Do different ways to reason provide for different outcomes as to essential questions?

What is Spiritual reasoning? Is it separate from Biblical reasoning and reasoning due to Tradition? Does it include both types and perhaps even more...?

What model(s) is/are best that we would not go astray in understanding and so in living our lives?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 4, 2021)

If the eucharist is the actual body and blood of Christ, then Baptism is the actual washing away of sin. 
It's easy to see how one forms their beliefs based on symbols vs actual.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 4, 2021)

Madman said:


> 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us _our_ sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
> 
> There is a big portion of the Gospel that you are missing, the fact that Holy Spirit brings sin to our mind so that we have the ability to ask for forgiveness.
> The non-believer does not know his sin and you gloss over yours.



No glossing of my sins was ever said by me, only spiritual renewal, restoration, cleansing - all by His obedience and His death & resurrection. Thinking that those who preach what they believe is easy grace, well, that becomes a sign that such do not believe in their very Source of sin overcoming - Christ the Lord, with no help from our self sufficient religious practices.  This is just a religious response to those who talk about the transformation of the believer, albeit w blinders on.

First, whatever is not of faith is sin.  I have often run my life in my self sufficiency and not in faith/trust, yet because He calls me His own I can come boldly back to Father, not because forgiveness or cleansing is the issue, but the renewing of my mind in truth, which is the discipline and training needed. This becomes a unique side to relational living with Jesus.

Thru the weaknesses of the flesh His Spirit counsels me/us, whether by prayer in His presence - where there is no condemning.  Or by confessing faults to one another in the body - for the purpose of growth and healing, and then we learn by those stumbling sinful choices - how old lying beliefs *took our eyes off His finished work*.

The new heart God has given us when we were baptized into Christ by the Spirit, however, is where we live from, and we have new godly desires to see that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness. This is seen in Rom ch 6:17-18;
17 But thanks be to God that [t]though you *were* slaves of sin, *you became obedient from the heart to that [u]form of teaching to which you were entrusted*, 18 and *after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness*.

We became freed from sin in the cross and resurrection.  We know this because when we sin, there is no fulfillment in it, and when we walk in trust and faith in Christ, there's fulfillment and joy!  The world does not have this internal Spirit, so sin to them is as natural as the nose on their face.
Do a check right now, think back on the last 24 and consider when you did NOT depending on Christ or trust Him with some area of your life. It cost you sorrow, you felt the Spirit was grieved, as it should be. And if you were still in Adam, in unbelief, then such would not be the case. Our in-Adam wicked sinful hearts wouldn't care, but our new hearts do.  And no where in scripture does it say we lose our gift of life and righteousness, because, when we are faithless He remains faithful, for He cannot deny HIMSELF. That makes the gospel great news, as we begin to see we *want to* walk in the *simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ*, since we were *given His life* for this very reason!

I'll include an answer to 1 John 1:9 in a new thread.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 5, 2021)

"And if you were still in Adam, in unbelief, then such would not be the case. Our in-Adam wicked sinful hearts wouldn't care, but our new hearts do."

Really? That is how it is?  Christians are the only caring hearts in the world of 7.9 billion? 2.8 billion Christians against the rest? We are the only legit group that when we push our weight around-- we care AND the remainder can't care?

If our in still Adam hearts did not care, why was/is  near everyone looking forward to a Messiah? Someone must of cared about somethings? 

I find the picture to be in troubled waters.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 5, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> "And if you were still in Adam, in unbelief, then such would not be the case. Our in-Adam wicked sinful hearts wouldn't care, but our new hearts do."
> 
> Really? That is how it is?  Christians are the only caring hearts in the world of 7.9 billion? 2.8 billion Christians against the rest? We are the only legit group that when we push our weight around-- we care the remainder can't?


Of course there is care, consolation and demonstrated love bt those without Christ, but such is never the reason we attain to life and the indwelling of the Spirit. God, not man, calls works not done in the Spirit, by the Spirit ... done in faith, trust and dependence on Christ ("apart from Me ye can do nothing") are filthy rags (see Isaiah 64:6 ). 
Again God said it, and He makes the clear distinction between those in Adam and those IN Christ, unbeliever and believer. 

*1 Corinthians 2:14 *But the natural man _*receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God*_: for they are *foolishness unto him*: neither can he know them, *because they are spiritually discerned*.

Faith is the substance - by it men of old gained approval, without it it's impossible to please God. See Hebrews ch 11. And by grace thru faith is how we are saved, and live. Sorry for the simplicity but that's right out of scripture. Ref's on request.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 5, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Of course there is care, consolation and demonstrated love bt those without Christ, but such is never the reason we attain to life and the indwelling of the Spirit. God, not man, calls works not done in the Spirit, by the Spirit ... done in faith, trust and dependence on Christ ("apart from Me ye can do nothing") are filthy rags (see Isaiah 64:6 ).
> Again God said it, and He makes the clear distinction between those in Adam and those IN Christ, unbeliever and believer.
> 
> *1 Corinthians 2:14 *But the natural man _*receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God*_: for they are *foolishness unto him*: neither can he know them, *because they are spiritually discerned*.
> ...




It gets so head spinning for me. I live by relationship. Sometimes I wonder if we are all artists or to use an example painters. We  inhabit a similar human condition yet see similar and differently. I use oils, you paint with pastels or water, another uses charcoal, and another another thing to express what we see that we have in common or in difference.

The subject of our spirituality for most of us is the same. Yet we live it differently. Some of us are logical in approach, for others is it is emotional. For one it is the work of God that is to be Highlighted or another it is the result of His work.

We are given measures of faith which are different in weight. I forget your bliss need not be mine and the seven churches in Revelations did not have the same issues. The pastorals we paint from are not the same though the "reason" for painting might be the same.

My pallet is not the bible. And my brush is not God in me. My pallet is life and my brush is living. There is no life without God and there is no living without this life for me. This relationship feeds me and sustains me-- and so I do not want. Everything else seems so complicated...


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## Madman (Dec 6, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus Christ said, "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of he11 shall not prevail against it" (Matthew 16:18). Please note that He said "church," not "churches." Also He said the "gates of he11 shall not prevail against it." The church that Jesus Christ established must therefore still be in this world, or else Jesus must have been mistaken. The only way a church can be identified is by its doctrine and practice.


One of which is apostolic succession.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 6, 2021)

Israel said:


> I didn't see Striper making that contention at all.
> 
> I heard him speak only about either abandoning, mindlessness, ignorance, or forgetting in this:
> 
> ...



The cloud would level the place, pave a parking lot and mow a runway for their model planes. I have heard them wish disappearance and call this play.  " Play nice."

I think it objective that the whole world sees Jesus as either a prophet or God. The models are plain.  That we abuse them...is my worry and am not sure why anymore. My fellowship is no hobby, regardless. My blindness be it forgiven. My rudeness be it known as but a tic.


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## Madman (Dec 6, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> No glossing of my sins was ever said by me,


 Not directly but by strong implication.



StriperAddict said:


> We all stumble in many ways, Christ has dealt with each, and renews our thinking to see the cure living in us.


Holy scripture does not equate sin with stumbling, there-in lies a problem, the Christian must realize that this is a spiritual battle taking place everyday. 





StriperAddict said:


> The new heart God has given us when we were baptized into Christ by the Spirit, however, is where we live from, and we have new godly desires to see that the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness. This is seen in Rom ch 6:17-18;
> 17 But thanks be to God that [t]though you *were* slaves of sin, *you became obedient from the heart to that [u]form of teaching to which you were entrusted*, 18 and *after being freed from sin, you became slaves to righteousness*.
> 
> We became freed from sin in the cross and resurrection.  We know this because when we sin, there is no fulfillment in it, and when we walk in trust and faith in Christ, there's fulfillment and joy!  The world does not have this internal Spirit, so sin to them is as natural as the nose on their face.
> ...



And here is one divergence of our theology.  While baptism restores our communion with God it is just the beginning in a life long process, sanctification is not a one time event, Holy Scripture defines it as a process.  Paul says that he was saved, he is saved, and he is being saved.

The Christian still has the sin nature caused by the fall however by the power of the Holy Spirit the Christian has the ability to refuse it, to choose the better path, to become more like Christ.  We are to be active in our salvation, the writer of Romans writes;

"Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Through him we have obtained access to this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in our *hope* of sharing the glory of God." Romans 5:1-2

But it is not complete, we have Hope, but Galatians 5 warns of falling from grace.

In fact there are many Biblical texts showing that sanctification and justification to be a future and ongoing process unto completion.

Sin hinders that and needs to be addressed.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2021)

Madman said:


> Not directly but by strong implication.
> 
> 
> Holy scripture does not equate sin with stumbling, there-in lies a problem, the Christian must realize that this is a spiritual battle taking place everyday.
> ...


Do you think people who believe that one can loose salvation from eternal death, sin any less than the ones that don't? And this is not just a Catholic vs Protestant question. Do people who believe in OSAS sin more than those who don't? Do people who confess more to other men sin less than men who don't?
Is one group more Christ like or holy acting than the other group?

Personally I don't see it. I've been around a lot of Catholic, Holiness, Pentecostal, Apostolic, and your garden variety of Baptist and Methodist and they all seem to be at about the same sin level in actions and words. They all have evolved to the same level of Christ like or Holiness in terms or righteousness. They all feel bad when they sin and they all ask for forgiveness. They all would like to become more Christlike but they just can't seem to get there.
Their repentance from sin is more of a recognized guilt than an actual change.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 6, 2021)

Israel said:


> I should like to think, and am quite persuaded thus...not caring if any other can receive it that there is a great deal of Holy laughter taking place....even as we are beheld by a great cloud of witnesses. That some of those witnesses...our "giants of the faith"...even hearing us as we proclaim them our "giants of the faith" behold our progresses and yes, even stumbles. Rather than find place for reviling or exasperation for "not getting it...yet" or not seeing as fully as we may so often think we do...are able to laughingly say to one another, as Peter might to John, or vice versa..."remember that time we were in the boat and the storm was coming up...remember what we said as He lay sleeping?"
> 
> Oh, yeah, "Lord...don't you care that we perish?" Ha! Lord...don't _you care_? "Don't you care that we perish?"
> 
> ...


Amen, His love and grace conquered their earthly fears of the storm, 
and greater saving grace conquers our God to man relational fears especially. 

I'll add, in context with the discussion, that such revelation & knowledge of the promise of eternal life and life to come will bring gladness and the joy and holy laughter of such a gift!
Eph 2:5-6
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, He made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 
6 and raised _us_ up together, and *made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus*. 

Such great relational company in Christ. One to come and one right here, right now.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 6, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> They all feel bad when they sin and they all ask for forgiveness. They all would like to become more Christlike but they just can't seem to get there.


Such growth (and behavioral sanctification) requires us not to put our confidence in how well, or not, we conquer sin,
but rather direct our soul attention on the One who has conquered sin on our behalf.
Sin looses its power when we see that we are not under law (that which stirs up sin) but under grace - which teaches us to deny ungodliness. 

The flesh wars against the spirit and the spirit against the flesh. It's not your battle, but His. TRUST Him!

Saints, the sooner you stop trying to overcome sin, the sooner you realize that you never had to overcome sin. Jesus already did that and gifted the victory to you by grace! Think on this, if you could overcome sin, then Jesus died for absolutely nothing (Galatians 2:21). 
We are instructed to not let sin reign in our mortal bodies (Roman's 6:12). This means that sin wants to reign but can't unless we let it. When we do, it's not because we desire sin, it is because we were deceived in the moment.  Sin wants you to think it's you who desires what's contrary to who you are. 
That being said, you aren't called to battle sin, you're called to know the truth! Knowing truth in very real and experiential ways, is what causes us to LIVE in that TRUTH!


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## brutally honest (Dec 6, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Saints, the sooner you stop trying to overcome sin, the sooner you realize that you never had to overcome sin. …
> 
> That being said, you aren't called to battle sin, you're called to know the truth!



This is just “happy talk” nonsense.

“Be killing sin, or sin will be killing you.”

  — John Owen


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## Madman (Dec 6, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you think people who believe that one can loose salvation from eternal death, sin any less than the ones that don't? And this is not just a Catholic vs Protestant question. Do people who believe in OSAS sin more than those who don't? Do people who confess more to other men sin less than men who don't?
> Is one group more Christ like or holy acting than the other group?
> 
> Personally I don't see it. I've been around a lot of Catholic, Holiness, Pentecostal, Apostolic, and your garden variety of Baptist and Methodist and they all seem to be at about the same sin level in actions and words. They all have evolved to the same level of Christ like or Holiness in terms or righteousness. They all feel bad when they sin and they all ask for forgiveness. They all would like to become more Christlike but they just can't seem to get there.
> Their repentance from sin is more of a recognized guilt than an actual change.


I have no idea.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 7, 2021)

Israel said:


> To most everyone but the Lord...faith just looks like a "mind trick".



Chapter, verse? Authority?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 7, 2021)

StriperAddict said:


> Such growth (and behavioral sanctification) requires us not to put our confidence in how well, or not, we conquer sin,
> but rather direct our soul attention on the One who has conquered sin on our behalf.
> Sin looses its power when we see that we are not under law (that which stirs up sin) but under grace - which teaches us to deny ungodliness.
> 
> ...




Is sin a spirit or a tool? "Sin wants you to think..." Sin is a propaganda tool of evil? Sin is a false narrative, a foreign interference? Or sin is a spirit able to influence cognition and behaviors?

Why did Jesus say to the lady at the well, " Sin no more." Why not say, "Be tricked no more".

Jesus died that we be tricked no more.  "Foolish Christians who has bewitched you?"???

I seem to be thinking that Christians who have their hearts in a sincere relationship with God are prone to be "tricked" in doing good ( so they think) when they are doing evil. Christians can be Paul before and after his conversion.

  Just as an evil person can do good,  sins of omission are real...we can be tricked, but sins of commission are generally premeditated...

Example: " Better for you, for us, that one man or a few men die than the nation perish."

The person saying the above does not say it on their own? Their premeditation is not their own?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 7, 2021)

Israel said:


> yes, authority


 Either you are placating me, or you have crossed over to the other shore.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 8, 2021)

It seems that at some point the bible cannon was closed. Might have been at the Reformation or it might have been earlier. I don't know right off.

Paul might be an example of how the word of God can be at least two things:

a) Paul was preaching the Gospel not knowing perhaps that his predication ( his letters more precisely) would become cannon or books in scripture. For him as it is for us he might have thought that the bible as he knew it was the word of God.

b.The word of God according to Paul was not necessarily scripture:

Pray also for me, that whenever I open my mouth, words may be given me so that I will boldly make known the mystery of the gospel, 20for which I am an ambassador in chains. Pray that I may proclaim it fearlessly, as I should.

And

But when they hand you over, do not worry about how to respond or what to say. In that hour you will be given what to say. 20For it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you.…

Now it seems that the " how we respond or what we say" is not as closed as the cannon is. And what we say can be more or to add to what the cannon said. After all who is Christ's and not his prophet?


Yet what keeps us in the margins  and not adrift with " Happy talk." as someone mentioned above?

You might say the ruler of margins is the bible. I might say the ruler of margins is the Eucharist. And another might say it is the outpour from the Glory---of the insights for which we accuse others of drunkenness except when we ourselves partake.

Paul did not have the bible we have, nor did the congregations he ministered to. It seems the word of God back then was intimate and present through the Holy Spirit.

People have used the bible to excess and people have used the power of tradition or the Church to excess.

The mix of individual personalities...brought to the bible and the Church what keeps them sane?

Paul worked to demystify the Gospel without the bible we know. I think this is safe to say. Who-what continued to demystify the Gospel after Paul?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 8, 2021)

The bible cannon(s) we know now were not known to all Christians for a few centuries after Jesus' resurrection.  How were people saved?


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## gordon 2 (Dec 8, 2021)

Israel said:


> The same way any who are...are...Word of mouth...


Both the individual and collective mouth and independent of Paul's letters? How did a sinner, a gentile and a Jew, know that an individual and the collective were authoritative? Want did a prospect have to understand from the Word of a mouth that it was authoritative?


"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

???


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## Madman (Dec 8, 2021)

Israel said:


> The same way any who are...are...Word of mouth...


Oral Tradition?  And how was it preserved?  How was it kept true to the faith?  Who protected it and how?  

Answers offer so many questions.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 11, 2021)

“For *God has not given us a spirit of fear*, but of _*power and of love and of a sound mind*_.” (2 Tim 1:7)
". . . we love Him because He first loved us." (1 Jn 4:19)                                           “. . . it's the goodness of God that leads you to repentance." (Rom. 4:2)
“There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because *fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love*.” (1 John 4:18)

Starting a Christian walk in understanding how good God is and how much He loves you, will be the difference of living a life of feeling safe & accepted, or living a life of trying to love God & behave right so that you stay in His graces & fearful that you aren’t. I have “been there & done that”, spending a lot of time confessing my sins for forgiveness, and trying to “get right” with God so that my prayers wouldn’t be hindered.
Either way, you are a Christian, saved by faith in Christ as Savior. One believing they have to stay “right” with God, the other realizing that Jesus’ finished work made them eternally “right” with God.
The difference is the quality of that life, the condemnation & guilt of self-righteousness, or the peace & joy of the Holy Spirit as found in the finished work of Christ.
==============

Some believe that the above scenario, believed, creates a rampant move of the flesh, others believe the Spirit will never lead anyone to sin, or in sin, yet they understand that sin is a force, a power within their fleshly bodies that tries to deceive by the world the flesh/sin and the devil.  
And if anyone sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous, who will never leave us nor forsake us.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2021)

Israel said:


> For to be carnally minded _is_ death; but to be spiritually minded _is_ life and peace.
> 
> One wrote recently in quote of Yeats. The poem ends
> 
> ...



You have to love that kind of response. My neighbors visited me often before covid--as JWs-. Their responses to "accusation " was ever " none" also. You have to love people like that. There is nothing else.  They don't understand me spiritually and I don't understand them.  Ships passing by. It is settled. I will never deny them their visits, yet my visits will never ever be. It is what it is. We are all on some kind of journey I suppose.

I should stop treating people like I threat myself. I always am in worry that my conscience is not clear, even inside of me Christ I suppose. It gets me in a loop that so and so's conscience and their consciousness in not 100%clear also.  By my misfortunes- for them- I judge others fortunes as suspect-- illegitimate even. My ears hear the inner Christ differently. I suspect my ears, my conscience and never Christ.

The only thing that has worked for me to clear the air is the Church, not the bible, not Christ in me. I check my conscience and my consciousness against the Church, every member.  This way of being for others I suppose I should forget. This logic of it for many is none, nil and not worth a response.

My Christ surrounds me, more than He is inside.  In His fragrance I live and never far apart this way.  I forget that we are not witnessed to in the same ways. I should stop treating people like I threat myself.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 12, 2021)

At this point I suspect that the Church is not just a "gift". It is the only  arbitrator between God and man. If bible study is profitable ( bible ministry) to works, then to study the Church is to judgement ( Church ministry), to clear conscience--profit.

The bible can be apart from the Church. But not vis-a-versa.  Thomas Jefferson's bible bouncing inside my head, inside my profound spiritual being, is a room hid inside a house for a mistress. Or I'm the pencil and Jesus is the pencil sharpener and spiritual life is individual and the community, though important, is a secondary thought.

How about if the individual and the community ( our shared humanity) is shored up into a human being as one entity or one man, person, individual etc, and so being one both individual and communal you and I are ministered to at least on these two levels which in reality are one which is the ministry ( purpose) of the Church?

Today if you google the media world wide you find that the Church is active, an authority, respected, acceptable, in human conflicts possibly because the Church has a human ear and a human mouth. What is the Church doing in the conflict areas of the world today?  might be a mindful question. What is the bible doing in the conflict areas of the world today? Does it come to mind to ask the question in this way?

Now Christ in me. Can I hear by myself, even if I decode the sounds with the bible by myself? It seems it was a  livable judgement for Thomas Jefferson...

Where does God's word resound with the most empathy towards man, as Christ was empathetic to all?


"Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God." Where is that mouth at mostly? I think that we have decided that for one it is the head , the inner Christ put up to the mind, for the other it is the bible put up against hearts and minds and for another the Church put up against the heart and mind and big toe and for some it is all three ( the man of all seasons). But we all have our starting point, marching orders, basic doctrine real, imagined,  even hidden from our very selves sometimes...

What is God's order? Perhaps it goes like this, though I in reality don't know yet: First God chose a people to be saved and not so much Moses. The Hebrews made it into the Promised Land, but not so much Moses.  Perhaps as Christians we are more of a people than individuals, just as it was with Israel. But we name our children, individuals, Israel and so salvation is for the individual we think... when in fact God is ministering in usual manner for his usual purposes of getting peoples out of captivity and to salvation. Maybe...

Because the cannon is closed is God silent? When we say the word of God says, do we disembody God's word from God as if God has said all he needs to say this side of heaven? The Holy Spirit gives lectures:  Are God's lips burnt and closed? What is the truth?


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## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2021)

Ans:
"Come to me, all who labor and are heavily laden and ...

I (Jesus) WILL give you rest."

Rest for the soul, trying to get "this" right,
Rest for the relentless search for a God who is always there amongst us, living in and thru us as we trust His final work on earth, on a cross. 

Try this on for size, a small note from a brother in the body,


You cannot earn salvation by your good works.  Salvation is by grace, through faith, apart from works.  Many people will agree that that's true.  But then in their very next breath they'll add that unless you have works, you're not saved.  So which is it?  Saved by grace, through faith, apart from works?  Or saved by grace, through faith, apart from works, but you must have works?

If you do the math on that, it just doesn't add up.  "Apart from works" is not equal to "but you must have works."

The works we do in Christ are not a condition of salvation.  We were "created in Christ Jesus *for* good works (not 'because of' good works) which God prepared beforehand that we should walk *in* them." (Eph 2:10).  That verse actually starts out by saying that we are "His workmanship."  Elsewhere, Paul says that God began a good work in you (not you began a good work for God), and He is faithful to the end to complete the work (not you must be faithful to complete it).

It's good to know the difference in all this!  Otherwise, people start trying to do works as a means of maintaining their salvation, instead of resting in God and His workmanship.


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