# Is all churchs  like this?



## LongBowHunt (Jan 13, 2011)

Me and my family have been going to this church in Mcdonough Ga for about four months. They told us last sunday that they have gotten rid of all the memberships, and wont to start off new. Thats sounds good, but the new way they wont to do this is if you cant give 10% of your pay you are not a member? I give each week but cant give that much or we will lose our house. I have became almost blind in both eyes and have not worked in 9 months. I have whats called best desise. Loss of center vision.So my wife is the only one working. They said they will welcome all of us  and will think everyone that gives, but you have to do what the church says to be a member. I will say this hurt me very much, for I thought we have found a church home.I know we are to believe God will provide for us, but if you give every week and are behind on all your bills what do you do. I have applied for ssd, but as we know it will take a while before I see that.


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## stringmusic (Jan 13, 2011)

pm sent.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 13, 2011)

Short answer:  find another church.

Longer answer:  I can't believe a church would actually do that, and I wouldn't be a part of any that did.  Having said that, there are many "pew warmers" who would rather cut off a finger than drop a dollar in the collection plate.  They manage to budget for a nice house filled with toys plus multiple cars and loads of activities for the kids -- and then wonder why they have nothing left over for God.  I know this does not apply to you, but people like this make some churches act like the one you mention.


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## pnome (Jan 13, 2011)

I feel certain that one or another of our believers can suggest a better church for you.  If Stringmusic here hasn't already done exactly that.

But I would be remiss if I didn't make a different suggestion. 

Are you sure you really need one?


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## rjcruiser (Jan 13, 2011)

I'd find another church as well.

Funny thing about churches and the "tithe."  It isn't in the New Testament...only something that was in the OT and was closer to 23%, not 10%.

When I've had the discussion with 10% Tither's I always ask the question about what constitutes giving.  Does it have to be cash? or can it be time or some other non-monetary skill/gift?  Everytime, I get the answer that it can be something non-monetary as well.  So....how does one measure that?

God should never be a burden...it isn't what He wants, it isn't what He taught.  Drop your penny in the plate and God will be more pleased with that, then the large bags that the "Pharisees" drop in.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 13, 2011)

Tithe is in the new testament.

Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 

Luk 11:42  But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. 

On the other hand the Bible refers to "hirelings",,sounds like your church's pastor has his hand in the till and knows too much about who does and doesnt tithe.  I would find another church.


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## Lowjack (Jan 13, 2011)

Ask them if they are going to keep the other 312 Commandments ?

Then Leave.


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## crackerdave (Jan 13, 2011)

Ten percent _is_ biblical,but I sure don't agree with what that church is trying to do.It may even be illegal,to refuse membership because of a lack of money.

Ask yourself this,whenever you have doubts about something: What would Jesus do? Would He have refused somebody because they didn't have enough money? I think not.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 13, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Tithe is in the new testament.
> 
> Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
> 
> Luk 11:42  But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.



Hmm...right.  Both are negative connotations.  Thanks for proving my point



crackerdave said:


> Ten percent _is_ biblical,.



Where? 

CD...not trying to ride you or disagree, I'm just curious as to where you get this.


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 13, 2011)

I would walk out and never go back to that particular church. Ever.


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## thedeacon (Jan 13, 2011)

PM sent to you. I wouldn't want my advice where everyone could see.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 13, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmm...right.  Both are negative connotations.  Thanks for proving my point



LOL I knew someone would get it.  

The actual definition of tithe is 1/10.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 13, 2011)

Those two instances are the only times that tithe is in the new testament.  ( I think,,,,am pretty sure...)


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 13, 2011)

Lev 27:32  And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passeth under the rod, the tenth shall be holy unto the LORD. 

An example of it meaning 1/10.


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## THREEJAYS (Jan 13, 2011)

No one can say it isn't a good principle,I know to many that their lives (spritual and material ) prove it.All scripture is usefull for teaching etc.I 100% agree that if you do tithe with a cheerful heart you will not miss it.It is one of the truest test of faith in my opinion.Having said that it has no place in deciding membership in a local congregation.


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## crackerdave (Jan 13, 2011)

I think tithing should be done as generously as you're able.Think about the poor widow woman that gave generously and cheerfully,even though she didn't have much to give.I think God smiles down on one like her much more than the average Joe that begrudgingly puts his ten percent in the offering.


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## Oldstick (Jan 13, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> I think tithing should be done as generously as you're able.Think about the poor widow woman that gave generously and cheerfully,even though she didn't have much to give.I think God smiles down on one like her much more than the average Joe that begrudgingly puts his ten percent in the offering.



I agree 100% with the above.  

But to give my honest opinion, yes 99% of the churches I have had any contact with are just like the original poster described, except in many other ways than just monetary contributions.  Just like all of human society is that way.  Schools, the workplace, clubs, internet and Woodys and so on.

It might be difficult, but try to find a church that will accept you just like everyone truly is:  a sinful and flawed child of God .  Forget about all the other trappings of social and community status or political ambitions etc.


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## dawg2 (Jan 13, 2011)

I'd be finding another church.  Sounds like their priorities are skewed IMHO.


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## Greaserbilly (Jan 13, 2011)

Eddie Long has enough money already: find another church.


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## 371V (Jan 13, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with 10% being a bench mark and you certainly can't out give God. He gave it all... But it has no place in accepting people into the church and general membership. 

In this world we live today, there is no greater way to show and prove your faith in God as to openly give. So as a mature believer, down grading the importance of giving is just wrong.

And if a believer (or non believer for that matter) gets down. The church should surround that brother with love and take care of him until he is back on his feet. And the church cannot do that without generous giving from it's members.

And that's biblical...


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## egomaniac247 (Jan 13, 2011)

Question, what "perk" do you get from being a member there versus attending?

That's a rhetorical question, as I'm sure only members can vote on elders, deacons, treasurers, etc...

But what I'm getting at is that the only "membership" I personally care about is that my name is in that big book outside the pearly gates....and the only one I care about granting me "membership" is the big man upstairs.

Man-kind may deny you "membership" to that church, but wordly man can deny you "membership" where it counts.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 13, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> Tithe is in the new testament.
> 
> Mat 23:23  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
> 
> ...



It's odd that you say "Tithe is in the NT; then you list two examples of tithing that have nothing at all to do with Christ's church.

Just saying.


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## packrat (Jan 13, 2011)

*Simple*

Simple answer to original post
"RUN"​


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## Ronnie T (Jan 13, 2011)

I know many of you on this forum believe in Titheing as taught in the old testament and believe is should be the standard used in the weekly contribution to/for the support of the local church (including all it's financial obligations).

As a life-long studier of God's word and as a church leader who has a nondenominational point of view(I say that only because I'm completely taking responsibility for what I'm about to say), let me just say this:

*1st.*  What you give to Christ's church is between you and your Savior.  It is the business of no one else. Period.  No one has to know your annual income and no one has to know how much you give.

*2nd*.  Tithing is a great mark to shoot for since tithing means 10%.  But the new testament standard is to "give as you have purposed in your heart".  As Lj insinuated, tithing belonged to Israel.  
Remember, in John 4 Jesus said "those who worship God thru Jesus will worship in 'spirit and in truth'.  God never intended to stipulate to us how much we'd give.  God's wants you to decide in your heart how much you've been blessed.
10% might not be enough.  You decide!!  CS Lewis said a truly righteous person would give until it hurts.

*3rd*.  According to Acts Chap 2, it was God Himself who added you to the church.  Find another place to go and don't look back.  Just cause it looks like a church and has a name on the front doesn't mean Jesus knows it's address.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 13, 2011)

Is it true that some churches actually vote on whether a person will be allowed to 'join' their church?


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## Lowjack (Jan 13, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Is it true that some churches actually vote on whether a person will be allowed to 'join' their church?


Yep they do.


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## Lowjack (Jan 13, 2011)

Actually if you gave 10% of your time to the Lord , he probably would appreciate it more than money.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 14, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Yep they do.



What if the final count is 85 for......... 25 against.  ???


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## Ronnie T (Jan 14, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Actually if you gave 10% of your time to the Lord , he probably would appreciate it more than money.



Isn't that the truth.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 14, 2011)

LongBowHunt said:


> I know we are to believe God will provide for us, but if you give every week and are behind on all your bills what do you do.



Don't even know you but this is heartbreaking just the same.  Don't give that church another cent.  You do not have to give anything to any church.  

If God isn't providing for you by means of paying your bills, then that'll be up to you to take care of.  Tithing to a church, or contributing at all for that matter, is NOT a necessity for you.  It's a necessity to the preacher and any other church employees and that's it.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 14, 2011)

371V said:


> In this world we live today, there is no greater way to show and prove your faith in God as to openly give. So as a mature believer, down grading the importance of giving is just wrong.



Did you even read the OP?  



371V said:


> And if a believer (or non believer for that matter) gets down. The church should surround that brother with love and take care of him until he is back on his feet. And the church cannot do that without generous giving from it's members.
> 
> And that's biblical...



I guess your doors are open, long term, just in case?


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 14, 2011)

ekim22 said:


> Man-kind may deny you "membership" to that church, but wordly man can deny you "membership" where it counts.



Did you mean to say "can" or "can't" right there?


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## polkhunt (Jan 14, 2011)

I probably would find another place of worship but not just because of the tithe but because of their membership in general. I don't even like that term. I would never go to a place of worship that required me to be part of their membership for any reason at all. I will not even get started on that, it is for another thread.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 14, 2011)

371V said:


> In this world we live today, there is no greater way to show and prove your faith in God as to openly give. So as a mature believer, down grading the importance of giving is just wrong.



Sounds just like the pharisees.

Also, who in this thread is downgrading the importance of giving?



thedeacon said:


> PM sent to you. I wouldn't want my advice where everyone could see.




C'mon Deac...don't you want all of us critiquing your advice?


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## hayseed_theology (Jan 14, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Short answer:  find another church.
> 
> Longer answer:  I can't believe a church would actually do that, and I wouldn't be a part of any that did.  Having said that, there are many "pew warmers" who would rather cut off a finger than drop a dollar in the collection plate.  They manage to budget for a nice house filled with toys plus multiple cars and loads of activities for the kids -- and then wonder why they have nothing left over for God.  I know this does not apply to you, but people like this make some churches act like the one you mention.





rjcruiser said:


> I'd find another church as well.
> 
> Funny thing about churches and the "tithe."  It isn't in the New Testament...only something that was in the OT and was closer to 23%, not 10%.



x2 on these


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## gtparts (Jan 14, 2011)

There are a number of large churches that are doing great things collectively for the Kingdom in terms of evangelism and mission efforts, that have certain rules regarding those who can be voting members and those who are recognized as "attenders". Scripture makes it clear that God has planned "good works" for His redeemed to accomplish. Such works are accomplished through those who give of their time, money, skills, talents, and spiritual gifts. I would not fault a pastor or church that impresses upon those who come there to be faithful in living out a Christ-like life of sacrifice and service to others. 

Lets face it, there are many who attend but contribute little or nothing. They are "takers", "pew-sitters", who are there to meet there obligation with lip service or to assuage their guilt. They don't witness, they don't give in any sense(monetarily or otherwise), and most often the are just hiding out on the back row with what they think is a "fire insurance policy". 

I think in some sense, this new trend is an effort to separate the wheat from the tares and, if this is done after the individual has made a profession of Christ being their Lord, then it seems appropriate. "Live up to what you say you believe." It really is not any more complicated than that. 

Of those churches that have "membership requirements, I know of none that make a huge issue of "attenders" other than to be clear concerning how they take up space and use resources. To some folks, the Childrens Dept. during services is just free daycare. Quite frankly, I find the attitude of those who use the local church but choose to remain on the "outside" to be offensive. It certainly takes from those would plug themselves into community service through the local body.

In this particular case, I would make an appointment to see the pastor and explain my position and my concern, as it relates to my family. As there are many jobs in the vineyard, there is surely a way in which you can be a member of the workforce, contributing to the overall gathering of the harvest and also remain in the care of the local body. They have a mandated responsibility to you and your family. 

If you are not responded to in love and compassion, you will certainly have your answer.

Oh... and NO! All churches are not like that one. They are all different in some respects, just to meet the various needs of people. You may have to find one that meets your needs,... but be sure when you do, that you support the church members, the leadership, and missions of the local body.


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## formula1 (Jan 14, 2011)

*Re:*



gtparts said:


> I think in some sense, this new trend is an effort to separate the wheat from the tares and, if this is done after the individual has made a profession of Christ being their Lord, then it seems appropriate. "Live up to what you say you believe." It really is not any more complicated than that.



While I very much agree that each of us need to live what we say we believe,  man has little or no ability to operate sucessfully as the mediator of grace and mercy, nor the judge who separates.  Is is Jesus who separates the wheat from the tares for a reason ( Man cannot do it right!). Trying to put ourselves in that position is the same thing the Scribes and Pharisees did. And Jesus judged them very harshly!

Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, then, Love your neighbor as yourself! You cannot create love by forced obedience!

This new trend, if it is one, is a dangerous trend, for no other reason than it does not breed Love of a believer to His Savior and lifts up obedience ahead of Love.  Why can't believers trust the Holy Spirit to do the work in the heart of man? True obedience comes from a transformed life by the Spirit of God and nothing else will work!


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## rjcruiser (Jan 14, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Lets face it, there are many who attend but contribute little or nothing. They are "takers", "pew-sitters", who are there to meet there obligation with lip service or to assuage their guilt. They don't witness, they don't give in any sense(monetarily or otherwise), and most often the are just hiding out on the back row with what they think is a "fire insurance policy".
> 
> I think in some sense, this new trend is an effort to separate the wheat from the tares and, if this is done after the individual has made a profession of Christ being their Lord, then it seems appropriate. "Live up to what you say you believe." It really is not any more complicated than that.



Requiring a giving amount should not be part of what constitutes separation of "wheat and tares."

If the church was concerned about the spiritual maturity of its flock, they'd wouldn't allow people to join by walking down to the front and signing a card after the service was over  They wouldn't post their SS attendance and worship service attendance on their sign in front of the church.  They wouldn't post the budget along with the offering amount from the week before  They wouldn't allow the congregation to rule the operations of the church  They'd preach a message that was expository and used more than one verse from the Bible.

And then...pastors/church leaders wonder why they've got a congregation full of people that just want to have their ears tickled and keep the pews warm.


Okay...rant over.


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## StriperAddict (Jan 14, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Actually if you gave 10% of your time to the Lord , he probably would appreciate it more than money.


 
I've gotten away from percentages. It's ALL the Lords anyway.  

If you meant giving 10% of your time to direct church/missions/evangelism work, ok, I get that. 

But the other 90% belongs to the Lord as well. I/we just don't see it that way.  

And that is to our shame because everywhere a redeemed soul lives is on "holy ground".  And (100%), ALL of it, our time, money and so called possessions, it ALL belongs to the Lord. 

If that belief/mentality really sunk in, it would set us free.


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## crackerdave (Jan 14, 2011)

Do any of you get a statement from your church showing your tithe for the year so you can deduct it on your tax return?


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## rjcruiser (Jan 14, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> Do any of you get a statement from your church showing your tithe for the year so you can deduct it on your tax return?



Yes...I get one from all of the organizations that I donate to over the year.

Why?


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## centerpin fan (Jan 14, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes...I get one from all of the organizations that I donate to over the year.



Same here.


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## crackerdave (Jan 14, 2011)

packrat said:


> Simple answer to original post
> "RUN"​



Ain't nuthin' _shy_ about my packrat brotha!

About the tax statement: I was just wonderin' about rendering unto whatzizname.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 14, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> About the tax statement: I was just wonderin' about rendering unto whatzizname.



I pay my taxes and if the government has a deduction that is legal, I will take advantage of that deduction.

Maybe I'm missing something


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## PWalls (Jan 14, 2011)

I go by Malachi 3:10 when it comes to giving and tithing.

I don't agree with the practice though that church has instituted.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 14, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I pay my taxes and if the government has a deduction that is legal, I will take advantage of that deduction.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something



Ditto.

I guess I'm also missing CD's point.


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## Randy (Jan 14, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes...I get one from all of the organizations that I donate to over the year.
> 
> Why?



Because if you get some of it back you are not tithing your 10%. 

That being said I do not believe tithing is a requirement either.

And thanks RonnieT.  You are the only pastor that I have ever seen that "gets it"!  I believe you words are exactly
God's intent.


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## crackerdave (Jan 14, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Ditto.
> 
> I guess I'm also missing CD's point.



I guess I'm guilty of attempted first degree pot-stirrin'. Sorry!


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## gtparts (Jan 14, 2011)

For the record, I do not attend one of the churches of which I spoke, nor do I necessarily agree with their policies. I was merely providing some insight into what may be going on at the OP's church. I certainly agree that the Lord will take care of the wheat / tare issue when He returns. 



> Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind, then, Love your neighbor as yourself! You cannot create love by forced obedience!



formula1, I don't really think forced obedience is the issue. These churches seek to be "doers of the Word". They are willing to let those who are NOT doers find another church for membership. (Lord knows, there are many churches that accept anybody and require nothing of their members in the way of service.) If you are a Christian and fill a pew, you are expected to serve. Obviously, the lost are always encouraged to stay, study, fellowship, and make Jesus the Lord of their life.... and then start serving the Lord. 

Of course, they distinguish between those who are saved (and, therefore, expected to serve) and those who say they are saved, but will not serve. Attenders have no voting privileges.



> Requiring a giving amount should not be part of what constitutes separation of "wheat and tares."
> 
> If the church was concerned about the spiritual maturity of its flock, they'd wouldn't allow people to join by walking down to the front and signing a card after the service was over They wouldn't post their SS attendance and worship service attendance on their sign in front of the church. They wouldn't post the budget along with the offering amount from the week before They wouldn't allow the congregation to rule the operations of the church They'd preach a message that was expository and used more than one verse from the Bible.



rj, I agree. The church I am most familiar with that has these policies (and I speak in general terms) doesn't accept just anybody into membership. They have a class where they tell the prospective member(s) what the local body requires and the biblical basis for it. I am not aware that they even attempt to quantify and post attendance or contribution figures. The fiscal policies are driven by the missional commitments. All of this is overseen by godly Christians. The Word is preached regularly and with vigor. It is not a feel-good, half-truth type of gospel. It is impossible to preach salvation without addressing the sin issue. Nope, the Bible is preached from cover to cover, including Maps.

If I lived closer to either of the ones I am familiar with and God granted me favor to leave where I have worshiped and served for 20+ years, I would consider them. Giving and serving are an integral part of my life, so qualifying for membership would not be an issue. I would be ashamed of myself if I couldn't meet the requirements. They don't ask anyone to do any more that what Scripture tells us is our rightful duty.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 14, 2011)

There was some discussion of the "Wheat and Tares" parable and that possibly this church was working to separate one from the other.
But that parable makes it clear that the church and it's leadership is in no position to make that separation.  If they try, Jesus says they'll uproot some of the wheat.

We need to leave Jesus' work to Jesus.
Certainly donating for the work and support of the Saints is important.  Giving on the 1st day of the week is important.  It should be a part of sermons and Bible studies....... And it stops there.  It's okay to talk of the 'needs of the congregation' and the hope of increasing the budget for the coming year.
But no one has a spiritual right to judge another person's giving or their ability to give.
The idea of separating a congregation into those who 'appear' to give more and those who 'appear' to give sparingly is a super mistake.  It places one group against the other.
I just don't think there's anything in it that will please God.

To me, it appears to have an unholy motive.
But, I could be overreacting.


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## crbrumbelow (Jan 14, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> It's odd that you say "Tithe is in the NT; then you list two examples of tithing that have nothing at all to do with Christ's church.
> 
> Just saying.



Jesus is explaining how the teachers and Pharisees try to make themselves look good by tithing seasonings, which were above and beyond what the law required of them, but they neglected the things that really matter such as treating people justice, mercy, and faithfulness. They tithed above what was required in order to look good. Verse 24 makes a reference to straining out a gnat, a practice done to drinks to make them pure. Here Jesus is saying that the Pharisees worry about the small things but neglect the important (swallow a camel).

Luke 11 starts referring to the same woes.  

I do believe he is referring to the church especially seeing as it is Jesus speaking.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 14, 2011)

I know of a church that, in and of itself, places no requirements upon its individual members of the church family as far as the offering is concerned.
Yet it serves the Lord's purposes very well.  It spends 100's of thousands of dollars each year for mission work and benevolance.
It's able to do it because it has righteous motives and seeks to do the Lord's will.  And because of that, the Lord's provides.
Like someone said, "It all belongs to the Lord anyway.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 14, 2011)

Hello longbowhunt, I hope you find another church that you can "belong" to. It is sad that this church has no faith that God will provide. That is what this is about. May as well put a gun to your head and take it from you. Tithing for us in NT days is not about obedience. It is a matter of faith. Just as Abraham learned to have faith, so we to learn. Next, they will be asking for W2's to verify if you are paying the full amount. How very sad that the church leaders "have no faith".


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## packrat (Jan 14, 2011)

*??*



crackerdave said:


> Ain't nuthin' _shy_ about my packrat brotha!
> 
> About the tax statement: I was just wonderin' about rendering unto whatzizname.



whatzizname needs a good rendering


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## Sugar Plum (Jan 14, 2011)

Sorry you had to go through that. It's frustrating when you find a good spot and then it goes sour.

I had a similar experience with a church here in town. I had visited several times with my daughter, we both LOVED the Sunday school classes and the sermons were uplifting. 

When I told the pastor that my daughter and I wanted to join and be baptised, he directed me to the business office where I was told about the 10% deal. 

I explained to them that I could not do it, I would if I could, but it just isn't possible. I would fall behind on bills, and my daughter would go hungry. You know what they told me? My faith in God would be enough. HE would provide all I needed to make it. 

Like the OP, I wanted to know how I would be able to keep a house I wasn't paying for.

Sadly, we left and never went back.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 14, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Next, they will be asking for W2's to verify if you are paying the full amount.



I've heard of churches doing exactly that.


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## Living Proof (Jan 14, 2011)

I am no scholar, and not sure about what it says in the NT, or about giving first fruits, or tithes or whatever, and I believe a church asking for W2 or demanding 10% is crazy, but I think people miss so many blessings by not giving. How can you pay your bills if you tithe? sometimes you won't, and miracles happen. Money and debt is talked about a good bit in the bible and both will choke you out. It's not the amount you give it's the freedom you feel when you know you give to God's kingdom before you pay that minimum payment on the visa for 55" tv. God will take care of your needs. It's been over 10 years since I lived like that, and I give more now than ever! Not going to give a full testimony or anything, but hey, i'm Living Proof! But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jan 14, 2011)

I'm starting to think the answer to the question is "yes".


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## Ronnie T (Jan 15, 2011)

Living Proof said:


> I am no scholar, and not sure about what it says in the NT, or about giving first fruits, or tithes or whatever, and I believe a church asking for W2 or demanding 10% is crazy, but I think people miss so many blessings by not giving. How can you pay your bills if you tithe? sometimes you won't, and miracles happen. Money and debt is talked about a good bit in the bible and both will choke you out. It's not the amount you give it's the freedom you feel when you know you give to God's kingdom before you pay that minimum payment on the visa for 55" tv. God will take care of your needs. It's been over 10 years since I lived like that, and I give more now than ever! Not going to give a full testimony or anything, but hey, i'm Living Proof! But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.



Amen Amen Amen.
A person will never be found guilty of giving too much.

Do you want to feel a blessing from God?  Truly?
Then sell a piece of land and give the proceeds to a worthy person or cause.
Or take all your income tax refund and give it to the church, or to a mission program.

Give ridiculously and see what happens.
Forget 10 percent, give all of you.
But no one has a right to 'reguire' anything of you.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 15, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> I'm starting to think the answer to the question is "yes".



I don't think so.
I suspect most that fall in that category don't stay in that category for very long.  Hopefully, they come to their senses.


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## gtparts (Jan 16, 2011)

I think some on here have missed the single point that church "membership" really doesn't mean squat. What is the purpose of formalized affiliation with a local body? Is salvation dependent upon having your name on the role or mailing list at the local Third Bapticostal M.E.P.A.L. Church? I thought not!

What does "being a church member" look like these days? Quite frankly, if the roll shows 250 but only averages 110 attendance, of which 20% (that's 22 folks, maybe 7 to 10 families) do 80% of the giving and working, I'd say that most "church members" are hardly distinguishable from the rest of the world. 

The issue is not church members, but Christ-followers.  Christ-followers are workers, givers, doers. 

What church leader would not like to tell the congregation as a whole to "Heat up or head out! If you are lukewarm or cold, you need to take steps to change or find a lukewarm pew in some lukewarm church. For the cold, any dead church will do." 

What would it be like to be in a local body that was comprised of almost all Christ-followers (imitators) or to pastor such a group?

Any way, some are not afraid to toe the line (the one set by our Lord ) and not compromise on what a Christ-follower is called to do and be.  

Think about it.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2011)

Some important words posted above by "gtparts" and "K9".

The 'church assembled' is the manifestation of a lot of powerful things, but it is not the place to go on Sunday mornings to get your ticket punched.


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## Georgia Hard Hunter (Jan 16, 2011)

crackerdave said:


> Ten percent _is_ biblical,but I sure don't agree with what that church is trying to do.It may even be illegal,to refuse membership because of a lack of money.
> 
> Ask yourself this,whenever you have doubts about something: What would Jesus do? Would He have refused somebody because they didn't have enough money? I think not.



The Beliefs I have do not set a dollar amount on the amount of your offering but a percentage (and I'm not sure where the 10% cam from)(If someone has scriptures please send). I understand about being short on bills I'm out of work but you are suppose to put your faith in the Lord and trust that he knows whats best and will provide for you. As far as the church requiring a offering to be a member??? Your Church should do the same thing and trust in the Lord to speak to the hearts of the members. All total I would find a new Chruch


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## Ronnie T (Jan 16, 2011)

**k9** said:


> You know, I am not opposed to meeting house to house again,  especially if the economy keeps getting worse.  I have met under a pole building at Bat Cave, N.C.  and other places, with a tin roof, benches, sawdust on the ground, the old hymns of the faith where God had done something for the writers, and a simple bible believing man of God preaching h-e-l-l hot and heaven glorious and God merciful to those who receive him.
> 
> I am not interested in supporting mega buildings, family life centers, basketball courts, coffee shop, swimming pool,  softball field, etc.
> 
> ...



Thanks brother for the evening lesson and I think your thoughts prove something that should already be obvious to everyone.......  
The Lord's church isn't as bad as we sometimes make it seem.  On this forum we sometimes hear about the 'extremes'.
So thank you and gtparts for reaffirming that there obviously are many many pastors and preachers who are dedicated to the cause of Christ.  And even more church families.


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## Oldstick (Jan 25, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> On this forum we sometimes hear about the 'extremes'.
> So thank you and gtparts for reaffirming that there obviously are many many pastors and preachers who are dedicated to the cause of Christ.  And even more church families.



I agree with the above comments and I am about to speak straight from my heart.  As I was growing up, my Dad was an ordained minister in the Methodist Church in South Ga.   He dedicated his life to this for over 40 years plus another 15 years or more after his so called "retirement".  His whole life he served in various smaller churches in the towns of the South GA conference.  

After I got married we were no longer directly associated with the Methodist Church, but instead a different denomination that my wife grew up in.  This particular denomination might often be criticized or looked down upon by the big money churches as "trash" or "holy rollers".  But I will wager $500,000 if you could find one mostly white church within the city of Macon that has done more to provide charity and mission outreach to the parts of the local community that is most in need.  And I am talking about serving real needs regardless of race or social status.

There are only two pastors that I know 100% certain who will be there during anyone's time of need come heck or high water.  One is my Dad and the other is the pastor (former) of the Macon church mentioned above.  Money cannot buy everything.


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## atlashunter (Jan 25, 2011)

Tithing isn't a suggestion in the bible it's a command. It says you are robbing God and cursed if you aren't paying the full tithe. I've also heard many a preacher cite Luke 6:38. Give and much more will be given back to you. Put your money where your faith is. If you have faith then no reason to worry that it won't work out for you.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Does the "law of sin and death" encompass all of Gods Old Testament commandments? Or is it simply referring to the idea that all have sinned and the wages of sin are death? If the former then do you consider the ten commandments null and void? Can't pick and choose right? If the latter then what does it have to do with te commandment to tithe?


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## LEON MANLEY (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Tithing isn't a suggestion in the bible it's a command. It says you are robbing God and cursed if you aren't paying the full tithe. I've also heard many a preacher cite Luke 6:38. Give and much more will be given back to you. Put your money where your faith is. If you have faith then no reason to worry that it won't work out for you.



What does God do with the money?
Go to the movies?
Invest in CDs?
I have full faith that if you tithe with you power bill money that you will be living in the dark.


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## Madman (Jan 26, 2011)

LongBowHunt said:


> Thats sounds good, but the new way they wont to do this is if you cant give 10% of your pay you are not a member?



I'm with Center Pin -- FIND ANOTHER CHURCH!!!!

I know several in your area you can try.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

I wonder how many of you would take issue with a church that refused to allow homosexuals to be members? Sure seems you are picking and choosing which of Gods commandments a church can require their members follow.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Tithing isn't a suggestion in the bible it's a command. It says you are robbing God and cursed if you aren't paying the full tithe. I've also heard many a preacher cite Luke 6:38. Give and much more will be given back to you. Put your money where your faith is. If you have faith then no reason to worry that it won't work out for you.



Sounds powerful and very compelling, but it isn't so.
Tithing is an old testament term directed towards the people of Israel.
If you want to adopt their tithing requirements, you must accept all of them, along with the sacrifices.
In the New Testament, we learn that it all belongs to God and we are stewards.
"Give as you have purposed in your heart".  And don't let your heart deceive you.

There's a huge difference in giving what was God's already, and giving 10 percent.
You might should give 45%.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Ronnie,

Tithing isn't the only commandment that was directed at Israel. Do you reject all Old Testament commandments that were given to Israel or just certain ones?


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## usardog (Jan 26, 2011)

Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,j worth only a fraction of a penny.k 

43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.” 

Long bow don't darken their door ever again. Jesus does not value "how much" you give, He values the condition of your heart! If you give what you can give He knows that! Just like the woman in this parable she gave all and He knew that. Am I telling you to give all NO. I'm telling you he knows your heart and your bank. He is not concerned with the number you give compared to someone else. 
Where we run in to trouble is the people who come for the benefits the church can give them with out a contribution. Gods church has bills too. In our (my/our) church we are strugling because of that very thing. We also have families in your situation, our pastor DOES not condemn them for not giving as much as everyone else. he only ask them to give what they can. 
Also if they ( your church) are more concerned with your "tithe" then helping you find a job OR even bigger covering you and your family in Prayer then its time to find a church home that will. If you need help finding a church home that will do this then contact me personally and I will do what I can. I know connections that can help find the church I referd to.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Do you actually believe that a person is a member of the church of the Lord Jesus Christ  by putting his name on a roll at some local church.
> NUTS!!!



Never said that. You're knocking down a straw man. 




**k9** said:


> Likewise a bible believing local church will put out the individuals who name the name of Christ, but continue in sin and refuse to repent, even if they are saved individuals.  This was done in the new testament church to saved persons who continued in sin. They were put out.
> 
> NO LOST PERSON IS A MEMBER OF THE CHURCH OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.  I don't care if millions are signed up on the rolls of some local church and pay "tithes".
> 
> All those person who have repented of their sins and have received the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour should be received as such into a local assembly.  If it is determined that individuals saved or lost are continuing in sin and refuse to repent, put them OUT. That is biblical.



Sounds to me like that is exactly what the OP church is doing. The bible commands tithes to be paid. You're disobeying God if you don't pay them and that is a sin according to the bible. So this church is putting those people out just as you say they should. Not saying I agree with it but looks like the scriptures back them up.


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## LongBowHunt (Jan 26, 2011)

I just cant believe all the comments on what I wrote. Thank you very much for all of the advice. We are visiting a new church right now and the first day they talked about giving what you can. Go figer that. They are asking for you to give what and how you can, Not telling you you cant be part of the church if you dont give 10% Tahnks again to all of you for the kind words and love.I walk with God each and every day.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

usardog said:


> Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins,j worth only a fraction of a penny.k
> 
> 43Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”
> 
> ...



Give what you can but the tithe is considered the required minimum. The widow gave more which is why she was credited for it.


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## Big7 (Jan 26, 2011)

gtparts said:


> They are all different in some respects,



One of em' ain't..


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## Ronnie T (Jan 26, 2011)

It's very interesting for me to realize that so many people have been taught to bring the "tithe" from God's law and requirement to Israel over into Christianity, but none of the other requirements found in Judaism.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> It's very interesting for me to realize that so many people have been taught to bring the "tithe" from God's law and requirement to Israel over into Christianity, but none of the other requirements found in Judaism.



I've never seen anyone adopt tithing but none of the other OT requirements. It does look like some folks want to do the opposite though. I've never heard a christian say the ten commandments is null and void because it is in the OT or given to the Israelites.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

I don't pay a dime to any religious organization.

Now it's your turn.

Do you reject all old testament law? Yes or No?


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## River Rambler (Jan 26, 2011)

LongBowHunt said:


> Me and my family have been going to this church in Mcdonough Ga for about four months. They told us last sunday that they have gotten rid of all the memberships, and wont to start off new. Thats sounds good, but the new way they wont to do this is if you cant give 10% of your pay you are not a member? I give each week but cant give that much or we will lose our house. I have became almost blind in both eyes and have not worked in 9 months. I have whats called best desise. Loss of center vision.So my wife is the only one working. They said they will welcome all of us  and will think everyone that gives, but you have to do what the church says to be a member. I will say this hurt me very much, for I thought we have found a church home.I know we are to believe God will provide for us, but if you give every week and are behind on all your bills what do you do. I have applied for ssd, but as we know it will take a while before I see that.



Find a new church. It's not sinful to recognize or avoid a defunked church....there's a million of them out there!


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## River Rambler (Jan 26, 2011)

Oh boy, just read a handful of responses.....scarrrrry.
Sounds like a lot folks have been hypnotized.

It's not a sin to not tithe 10%. It does however, keep you from a closer relationship with the body of Christ and you never enjoy the worship of giving. There will always be manipulators of the law. You can't put a post out like this on GON (great place, but full of Yahoos) and expect to find the answer to your dilemma.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 26, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I've never seen anyone adopt tithing but none of the other OT requirements. It does look like some folks want to do the opposite though. I've never heard a christian say the ten commandments is null and void because it is in the OT or given to the Israelites.



If not for the New Testament reconfirming the 10 commandments that you speak of, they would not apply to us Christians today.
The 10 commandments were specific laws given only to the people of Israel thru Moses by God.
New Testament teachings reconfirm each one of them.

For us, the 10 commandments are lacking.
Matthew 5:21"You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.' 
 22"But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hel l. 

If the New Testament would reconfirm the Jewish command to tithe 10%, I would teach it also.  But it don't.  So I'll follow New Testament teachings concerning giving.
Under Jesus Christ, tithing just don't cut it.
Tithing isn't about the heart.

Christians are called to a higher standard than the basis standards God imposed on the freed slaves.
The same applied to tithing.

At least, that's the way I see it.  If there are New Testament scripture that might change my understand I'd certainly be interested in hearing them.


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## atlashunter (Jan 26, 2011)

That verse is preceded by these.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Starting at verse 21 he addresses a few of the 10 commandments, not all of them. Does that men that only those he addressed are still in effect?

All this time I've been hearing preachers stand up in front of their congregation and read off Malachi 3:10 before passing around the collection plate. Who knew that old scripture had been superceded? Someone should fill them in.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 27, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That verse is preceded by these.
> 
> 17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> ...


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## LEON MANLEY (Jan 27, 2011)

crbrumbelow said:


> LOL I knew someone would get it.
> 
> The actual definition of tithe is 1/10.



1/10 of what?

net?

gross?

What if I loose money one week can I get some out of the plate?


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## formula1 (Jan 27, 2011)

Genesis 14 (see also Hebrews 7, Psalm 110)
17 After his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him, the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the(X) King’s Valley). 18And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest ofGod Most High.) 19 And he blessed him and said,

"Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
20 and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!"

And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

So 400 years or so before any law existed for the Israelites, Abram gave a tenth of everything.  Before the law, before the covenant, even before the name change to Abraham. Was he motivated by obedience to law? Could it be that he may have been motivated by Love for His Heavenly Father?

I'm just saying! Isn't that what God wants for all of us?


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## gtparts (Jan 27, 2011)

Boy, F1, you really went and stepped on that cow patty.

Imagine, finding a reference that shows what is reasonable, appropriate, and acceptable as a sign of worship and gratitude. Surely, you are not suggesting that some kind of guideline for giving back to God and supporting the advancement of His kingdom on Earth from what we have been given actually exists!

Let's suppose that God loves a cheerful giver. That leaves the relationship of an uncheerful giver, an indifferent giver and a non-giver in question.

Lesson to be learned: Give cheerfully!

Let's further suppose that God would have each give as he purposes in his heart. Seems that goes right to motive. It is clear God is concerned for our motive. Why do you give what you give? And, why do you keep what you do not give?

Looks to me that each individual has to weigh out this matter for himself/herself.... and each is solely accountable to God. 

The wealthy person who gives 50% of his gross and who does so without cheer or for the wrong reasons has no reason to expect God's approval. Same for the widow who gives it all without cheer or for the wrong reasons, though I really can't see what her reasoning might be.

On the other hand, there are those who give cheerfully and out of love and compassion who find approval in doing what God has asked of them. 

If 10% is what God has impressed upon you, then do no less. If more than 10%, due no less. If you cannot find it to do what scripture indicates is reasonable, appropriate, and acceptable, perhaps it is a heart issue, but it could be that God knows that how you handle your finances is the problem. Many are over-committed financially when God brings up this matter in their lives. The question is whether we make excuses or whether we take steps to correct our fiscal mess. 

For those who speak against a tithe as reasonable, appropriate, and acceptable, I sincerely pray it is because you are being faithful to what God has laid on your heart. 

To those who speak for a tithe as reasonable, appropriate, and acceptable, I sincerely pray it is because you are being faithful to what God has laid on your heart. 

And for either, I pray you not put a burden on you brother or sister that is not theirs to bear.


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## gtparts (Jan 27, 2011)

I love Mt. 5:17, but some have a difficult time understanding how that works.

Mt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.

Apparently the popular thinking was that the Messiah would do away with the law, or at least the penalty that accompanies guilt.... make them just suggested guidelines. 
"Ooops.. my bad." 
"Sorry."
"Boy, am I embarrassed."

They had no idea that Jesus came to "fulfill" the law, that is, accept the just penalty for the sin of all people, for all time.

Wow! Does that let everybody off? 
Nope! 
While it was sufficient to do so, those who refuse to acknowledge who He is and what He has done and commit to follow Him will not have that debt obligation canceled by having His payment credited to their account. Those who go it alone will have to pay their own indebtedness under the law.


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## formula1 (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re:*



gtparts said:


> Boy, F1, you really went and stepped on that cow patty.



Not me, simply God's word!  You did a great job expounding on it BTW.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 27, 2011)

It wasn't 10% that God truly sought.
It was the heart of mankind.
Now, thru Jesus Christ, God has made it possible in ways not possible before.
10% of any part of me is not enough.
Give it all.

The young rich ruler was a man of the Law.  And he was sure of his compliance with that law......
But Jesus told him to give away everything he owned and follow Him.


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## atlashunter (Jan 27, 2011)

k9,

Seems to me there are only 3 possibilities here.

1. You accept all old testament law as authoritative and still in force. Jesus appears to back this up in Matthew 5.

2. You reject all of it as being superceded by the new covenant.

3. You pick and choose some laws that still apply and some that don't.

Of the three the vast majority of christians would fall into the third category with about as many reasons for what they pick or don't pick as there are christians.

Problem is, you already said you can't pick and choose. You also said you don't reject it all so you don't fall into the second category. But you also don't fit the first if you reject tithing. I was just trying to figure out which of the three meshed with you view. Seems you're contradicting yourself.


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## formula1 (Jan 27, 2011)

*Re:*



**k9** said:


> Thank you for your post and for realizing the Abraham did not do this due to the law, as he believed God and was called a friend of God. He saw the day of Christ.



Sir, one thing I have realized is the our Heavenly Father has always blessed men based upon their response to Him. Abraham is a fine example of a man whose heart was humble and pure before God.  This truth motivates me to work on my own heart and insure my motives are right before Him.  I am sure I am still here on this earth because I am still learning about this very truth!  I pray that God cleanse me of that which will burn and fills me with what He desires in me. Not my will, but His, that is my goal!


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## atlashunter (Jan 27, 2011)

I'll take that as option number 3. Picking and choosing based on your own "spiritual discernment". See how easy that was?


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## formula1 (Jan 27, 2011)

**k9** said:


> I would like the testimony that I pleased God and that I was a friend of God and not the world. I would like to hear Well done, good and faithful servant.
> 
> If this is done, then it will still be of God who did it and not me.



Amen, my brother in Christ!

2 Cor 5 (ESV)
14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

KJV (your favorite)
14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 

Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places

Many spiritual blessings to you in Christ!


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## LongBowHunt (Feb 21, 2011)

aaa


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## emtguy (Feb 27, 2011)

theres a church in our area thar requires your yearly income and makes you pay 10 percent if you are a member...I fully think tithing is scriptual BUT making a member pay is useless, i call that a country club...they have dues.
If its not done by choice and freewill its a waste.


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## toddboucher (Mar 2, 2011)

He is in ERROR, and you know you need to leave. He might want a invite to TBN.


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## Bucaramus (Aug 4, 2011)

I know this thread has been inactive for awhile but had to ad my .02. I can't recite the chapter or verse but I know for sure the bible says to give generously but when giving, don't let the left hand know what the right hand is doing. That said, it is no ones business how much anyone gives. I write a check when giving in church and am seriosly considering not doing this any more as it is no ones business how much I give. I give generously, but I also give in many ways, not just cash. I wouldn't attend a church that put a monetary value on membership. They have their priorities messed up.


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## Michael F. Gray (Aug 5, 2011)

Thank you for the post. First, tithing is a command for the Christian. Do all comply,...no. I am also afflicted with ailments, I've had several battles with cancer, and am not the picture of healtth I once was. The command to tithe does not stop at 10%. In fact the same text(s) also refer to offerings. Christians are commanded to lay by in store as we've been prospered. If all I've received this week is $1.00, then a dime is the Lord's. It's been my experiance, after a person has been saved and served the Lord a few years, most learn to tithe and support other works. The Church I attend actively suports two Bible Colleges, orphanages/childrens homes, and both home & foreign missionaries. We even support a Christian Radio Station.  As a man who started and pastored a work many years, I learned most youngsters who are saved come with baggage. One is often debt. It usually takes them time to learn the differance between their wants and needs. I remember a gentleman telling me thirty some years ago he could not afford to tithe. When I visited his home I noticed he and his wife both had almost new vehicles in the driveway. I observed a nice camper and a new boat. I would suggest his problen was not a lack of receiving God's goodness, but confused priorities. In time and after hearing the WORD preached he improved. As a pastor I never desired to know who gave, or how much they gave. I never looked at the financial statements the treasurer passed out each year. We are tought to "TRUST the Lord" (Proverbs 3:5-6). I would question the wisdom of using tithing as a litmus test for Church membership. Then again the Church I established was dug out in a community that lacked a fundamental Church. We won em to the Lord, didn't steal em from the big Church down the road a piece. When you win em ,you have to disciple em. Does not happen overnight. When a baby is born into our home, we don't kick it cause it can't walk. It has to learn. New Christians are "Babes in Christ", and they must learn. It's a challenge for a pastor to teach and preach on a level that speaks to new converts, and still allows his most mature members to grow at the same time. I also understand when ailments set in it's not inexpensive to maintain these old bodies. I prepared as well as a poor man can for retirement years. The first time I was diagnosed with cancer I had $58,000 in our local bank. I had to sign it over to the hospital to gain treatment. Shortly afterward my wife was diagnosed with a brain tumor. The Lord knows what you are experiancing. He often tests our Faithfulness. That's what he expects from us.  Be FAITHFUL.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 5, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Thank you for the post. First, tithing is a command for the Christian.



Actually....no....no it isn't.

You are correct in saying that gifts and offerings are required.  But there is no tithe under the new covenant.

The rest of your post is spot on though.


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