# Born Again and Carnal



## hummerpoo (Aug 22, 2012)

Several months ago I read in a denominational study publication that there are three kinds of people: worldly, carnal, and spiritual.  Some weeks later I heard a sermon by a guest pastor in a church of the same denomination that included the same idea.  In both cases it was clear that the carnal were considered to be saved.

Tonight I was flipping through the channels and stopped for a few minutes on a preacher who talked about those who are born again but not disciples (he made this point quite clearly).  I know enough of him to be certain that his theology is no where close to that of the denomination first mentioned.

This is new to me.

Are you familiar with this idea?
Is this scriptural?
What is the source of this idea (scriptural or other)?
Does this sound right to you?
What do you think of it?

Other than, possibly, stagnant sanctification I don't know where to begin.

Since I'm not working on a checklist to determine who is saved and who isn't, I suppose I'm just curious.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 23, 2012)

Yes, as much as some would kick against the inner life, a 'carnal' believer is still a believer.  

In the beginning of Paul's letter to the Corinthian church, Paul refers to the brethren as sanctified saints. In the next verses (1 Cor 1:5-9),  he continues to mention their establishment in the faith.  What is  interesting is that this body of believers were indeed carnal (1 Corinthians 3:2-4 )  and in appearance they looked as if they walked the 'way of the world',  or as Paul calls it, "as mere men".  Yet their sealed and sanctified  position is without question, all through the Corinthian letters.  I  cannot find any place where their salvation was called into question.

The Corinthians were given considerable admonishment, as was needed on the part of those creating strife and causing 'carnal' divisions. We also know of the horrendous sexual sin one man had (1 Corinthians 5:1-5 )  in sleeping with his own step-mother. A terrible decision had to be  made by Paul, and I know of no cases in my life where the leadership "delivered (a) man over to satan for the destruction of his flesh"... so his soul could still be saved.   But in this case it was done 1) to allow this believer to "see" the  sin/error and repent 2) to keep the rest of the body from this same sin  and 3) if necessary, allow the destruction of the physical body of the  man while the soul/spirit returns to the Lord. 
This event in the church caused Paul tears and great sorrow.  But even with Paul's decision rests a promise... (2Cor 5:1...  For we know that if the   _earthly   tent which is our house is torn down_, we have a building from God, a house   not made with hands, eternal in the heavens) 

 The point made here in Corinthians and so  many other parts of the bible is that there is no carnality that can  destroy the soul and spirit of a believer.
 The body? You bet.  The warnings are very  clear.  Prayerfully guarding against the deceitfulness of sin is any  redeemed believer's 'burden'.



 Now note that the repentance of this man caused him to return back to  full fellowship in the Corinthian church. Paul even admonished the  saints not to inflict continuing shame and sorrow on this man as well so  that sorrow would not be "added to him", nor the church itself. 


 I guess this is where the rubber meets the road.

Some teachers today in the body of Christ are  out to "disqualify" believers, and I'm careful when I see some of them  abandoning scripture on the subject of carnality. I find that a few well  meaning brethren would have this man do some sort of penance to 'prove'  his _worth _before he could even step foot in an assembly of believers again. 


 Paul knew that such unforgiving actions in the congregation would  lead to legalism and shame, on the man and in the church itself. 



 Consider:
 2 Cor 2: 

 <sup class="versenum">5 </sup>But   if any has caused sorrow, he has caused sorrow not to me, but in some degree—in order not to say too much—to all of you. <sup class="versenum">6 </sup>Sufficient for such a one is   this punishment which _was inflicted_ by the majority, <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>so that on the contrary you should rather   forgive and comfort _him_, otherwise such a one might be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Wherefore I urge you to reaffirm _your_ love for him. <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>For to this end also   I wrote, so that I might   put you to the test, whether you are   obedient in all things. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>But one whom you forgive anything, I _forgive_ also; for indeed what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, _I did it_ for your sakes   in the presence of Christ, <sup class="versenum">11 </sup>so that _no advantage would be taken of us by   Satan, for   we are not ignorant of his schemes_.


 Some final thoughts to ponder...

 Question: How did _God view_ the Corinthian man... all through his period of carnality and darkness?  (To clarify: Before, during and after his sin/repentance)

 Ans: As a holy, blameless redeemed child of God.  
_If it were NOT SO, *how could his soul and spirit be saved* when his physical life were taken at any time during this part of his life?  _(1Cor 5:5)


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## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2012)

Very good explanation striperaddict, but how can we define a difference between carnal and worldly?I always assumed they were one in the same.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 23, 2012)

Striper, thank you for your most excellent response.  Please be assured that it will recieve the study and consideration that it so richly deserves.  I'm sure that I will have questions, but I foolishly posted my question at a time when I will not have internet access for the next few days, so the questions will not come for a little while.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 23, 2012)

hummer... I look forward to your gleanings 



hobbs27 said:


> Very good explanation striperaddict, but how can we define a difference between carnal and worldly?I always assumed they were one in the same.


 

I believe they are. Note how Paul says the carnal _look_ like "mere men", as in appearance acting out of the "world's system" perhaps. 
Maybe there are small differences in the two, I believe they are synomous.

Time may also keep me from posting much today, but your question has me consider doing a search on both words (carnal & worldy). BibleGateway.com is a great tool for that, among others.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Several months ago I read in a denominational study publication that there are three kinds of people: worldly, carnal, and spiritual.



... but the Bible speaks very clearly about two types:  sheep and goats, wheat and chaff, etc.  There are certainly people who are immature in the faith who have struggles, but that condition should not be a permanent one.  So, I'd be careful not to make too much of the "carnal Christian".

Here's another opinion:

http://www.gotquestions.org/carnal-Christian.html


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## StriperAddict (Aug 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but the Bible speaks very clearly about two types: sheep and goats, wheat and chaff, etc.


 
I don't believe "sheep/goats" referrs to believers.
Below, I grabbed the following from a website that's worth a look. This is a partial explaination, select the link to see the rest.


The Sheep-Goat Judgment is an awesome and sobering future reality. God's Elect and covenant people glorified out of this present age are not in the picture here. They will have been Resurrected or Raptured and are now in new spiritual bodies. But the people not judged, ("d" word removed due to board edit ~SA), and carried off to the fires are still alive and in their mortal bodies at the close of this age. Clearly they are in another category entirely. These mortals will face Messiah's earthly judgment. He will judge the heathen, (the nations or the gentiles), as a shepherd would separate the sheep from the goats. So the sheep and the goats are unsaved gentiles. These are men, women, and children who have not yet come into the covenants of Israel. (Eph.2:12-13) They are not yet saved. These people have not made any personal commitment to Christ as Savior and Lord. They have not come into a direct covenant relationship with Messiah. They do not *know* Him. And He does not *KNOW* them. If they had known Him and He had *KNOWN* Him they would have been glorified at the return of Messiah at the Resurrection-Rapture.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I don't believe "sheep/goats" referrs to believers.



Never heard that one before.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2012)

I've never heard that theology before either. Jesus said you are either with me or against me. That doesn't leave much room for lukewarm Christians.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2012)

I've heard of it, just disagree with it, but I have yet to find two Christian brothers or sisters that are in total agreement with the whole Bible.


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## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2012)

I think the difference lies in the fact that you can define Christians as 2 different types. Those who attempt to change themselves through discipline and those who like Paul said "I put no confidence in the flesh" and "I am what I am by the grace of God". The majority of the church today clings to every word of their pastor who falsely assumes that if they listen to him then he can produce behavior change. That's Old Covenant. We live in the New Covenant where we live by the Spirit which he gave us and as John says "you don't need anyone to teach you"


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## Ronnie T (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't have time for a lengthy reply but I wanted to leave these scripture for you consideration.  These scriptures, also for the Christians in Corinth, tells how a Christian must regard their physical body.

1Cor 6:13  Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body. 14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power. 15  Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be! 16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, “ The two shall become one flesh.” 17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him. 18  Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body. 19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

*The church in Corinth is not a good example for any of us to learn from.

Concerning the three terms used in the OP, if a person isn't a spiritual person, the person is not a saved person.

One word that was missing:  Repentant.
A child of God is one who repents.  Many times.

.


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## jmharris23 (Aug 24, 2012)

StriperAddict, 

How long do you believe someone who claims to be in fellowship with Christ can stay in a state of carnality and still be Christian?


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## StriperAddict (Aug 24, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> StriperAddict,
> 
> How long do you believe someone who claims to be in fellowship with Christ can stay in a state of carnality and still be Christian?


 
You're asking me if there is a line in the sand where one crosses over -- back into a "un-saved" state, and I belive I've made my thoughts known on that subject, however unpopular I suppose.

I've no doubt the words of Paul in Corinthians bring up heated debate on the subject, but they are there nonetheless for very pivitol reasons.

For one, I don't know the length of time the offending believer "had his father's wife", but the church seemd to know about it for a time.  It hurt Paul's heart that the rest of the body was unaffected (as far as scriptural reaction and rebuke) and it must have been one of the worst days in his life to deliver this man away to die. But this was a last desperate resort _to restore fellowship, not salvation_ concerning one who had so stained the reputation of the Lord and His body.


Now my question back would be... what must a blood-bought believer, if _he indeed looses his eternal life_ based on an over abundance of sinful, carnal choices... _DO to regain the eternal life_ he "_lost_" ???

I can understand how uncomfortable it is to answer that, because I see the answer nowhere in scripture.  

Therefore, consider the _unscriptural_ conclusion of such a state...

It would take _a second work of the cross_ (an impossibility) to _re-forgive_ the "former-believer", wouldn't it?  

The bible makes it clear that _Christ died ONCE for all time_ for those who would be forgiven, justified, and restored.  *Hebrews 9:22* also makes it clear that without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness. 

In error, this can only mean that a redeemed, justified, holy,  forgiven believer who looses that forgiveness and gift of Life would need for Christ to die AGAIN, since it is impossible for his own WORKS of righteousness to "re-save" him.  This is all dangerous conclusion as far as scripture, There is no life, justification or a "new creation" without the single work of the cross, and the body of Christ. 


Disclaimer:
Finally for those who might say that I'm talking "Cheap" grace, the following by Oswald Chambers speaks well concerning this... 

Compared with the miracle of the forgiveness of sin, the experience of sanctification is small. Sanctification is simply the wonderful expression or evidence of the forgiveness of sins in a human life. But the thing that awakens the deepest fountain of gratitude in a human being is that God has forgiven his sin. Paul never got away from this. Once you realize all that it cost God to forgive you, you will be held as in a vise, constrained by the love of God.

-- I can conclude that it was the constraint of the love of God, not the fear of eternal torment, that brought back the body-death sentenced Corinthian man to fellowship in the body of Christ.


More from Oswald Chambers:

“*In Him we have ... the forgiveness of sins ...” - Ephesians 1:7*


Beware of the pleasant view of the fatherhood of God: God is so kind and loving that of course He will forgive us. That thought, based solely on emotion, cannot be found anywhere in the New Testament. The only basis on which God can forgive us is the tremendous tragedy of the Cross of Christ. To base our forgiveness on any other ground is unconscious blasphemy. The only ground on which God can forgive our sin and reinstate us to His favor is through the Cross of Christ. There is no other way! Forgiveness, which is so easy for us to accept, cost the agony of Calvary. We should never take the forgiveness of sin, the gift of the Holy Spirit, and our sanctification in simple faith, and then forget the enormous cost to God _that made all of this ours_.​
_Emphasis _mine.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 24, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> I've heard of it, just disagree with it, but I have yet to find two Christian brothers or sisters that are in total agreement with the whole Bible.


 
Concerning "sheep/goats" points, I took a website statement in post 7 that made a case on it witout much prayerful reflection, no matter if I saw some intellectual worth of it.  On that matter, I won't judge the matter or difference in the S/G thing that strong.  

But on the holy, justified, redeemed state of a believing child of God I will not wane 

Thanks for the post.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 24, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Concerning "sheep/goats" points, I took a website statement in post 7 that made a case on it witout much prayerful reflection, no matter if I saw some intellectual worth of it.  On that matter, I won't judge the matter or difference in the S/G thing that strong.
> 
> But on the holy, justified, redeemed state of a believing child of God I will not wane
> 
> Thanks for the post.



No argument from me on your post 2 and 14.I agree totally.


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## jmharris23 (Aug 24, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> You're asking me if there is a line in the sand where one crosses over -- back into a "un-saved" state, and I belive I've made my thoughts known on that subject, however unpopular I suppose.


 

No actually what I am asking is do you believe that a man can truly come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and live a lifetime of carnality?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 24, 2012)

I believe a carnal Christian is a Christian by name only, and lost, dead. "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:6)


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## gordon 2 (Aug 25, 2012)

(To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.) Quote

When I think of the destruction of the flesh, I think of the Valley of Dry Bones and how God was able to put flesh on them and make them into a powerful army. Also, I think of Job and how his body was withered before eventually he would prosper again.

When I think of the day of the Lord Jesus, I think of the day of the Lord according to the prophets and  the day of salvation as per the prophets and through Jesus the day that a believer says, "Yes to that salvation." I think of the alter call, baptism, conversion, repentance, grace,  ...the day of the Holy Spirit etc, a positive answer to "Follow me." etc...

Because of the justice of God in some cases the flesh is made to suffer for injustice or sin...to the point of rock bottom. I feel that this is what Paul means in this case.
Some sins do indeed kill the flesh to the extent that the flesh cannot perform to the design of the Lord, as some of us who once committed those sins know well!

In the case of incest in Corinth...the member of the church who commited it... because of the nature of God and man would perhaps come to suffer for it and hopefully at some  point returning to God--his "whole and intact" life once again. I do not read here on anything which would happen after his physical death. This man was bond or loosed by Jesus during his lifetime...if bond hopefully he would learn from his prison or satan--and ask for restoration. He continued with a soul, with a spirit but he was not a believer in that which made his flesh wholesome.

Although the church needed to continue to love him, he was not a believer--not a member of the body of Christ. He was a pagan and not a believer and God would deal with him according to his justice to pagans and to the people who are called.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 26, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> No actually what I am asking is do you believe that a man can truly come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and live a lifetime of carnality?



God does not 'stop' the believer from our 'old' bad behaviors, as He allows us the choice when we come to the point of temptation. There may even be some temporary 'enjoyment' in that... but because of our new nature in Christ... the sin act will hinder and cut off our communication with Abba Father, and ultimately result in frustration and ongoing carnality... should we not confess such to the Lord. God is clear that, as His children, we are under a discipline that the world knows nothing about. The world sins b/c that is its nature.  We grieve ourselves and the Spirit of Christ when we open up to the sin thoughts placed there by the power of sin in our bodies, not our spirit, or new man.

All this said, we are still talking about a believer, yes, one who has come to a saving faith in Christ; who God has said is "dead to sin" (in his perfect, or the new creation, new alive spirit, etc)

What bothers me about how the church looks at carnality is that it does so without the scriptural emphasis of who we really are in Christ, and sometimes does not emphasize carnality's remedy: the completed work of the cross and the resurrection.

Honestly, I can even see myself judging those carnal Corinthians as 'heathen', bad bad people, and all such emphasis on behavior (false conclusions based on what is seen), 
rather than agree with Paul's 
1) introduction of them as "saints   by calling, with all who in every place   call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their _Lord_ and ours"...
2) ... handling of such carnal matters in the church.  We'd do well to hear and heed his heart on the matter.

My impatient humanity and pride would have me mercilessly pound them folk to a pulp!  C'mon, be honest, aren't some of us 'there' too?
But just note that Paul's heart broke for them (as mine/ours should), and to the one man who had gone down that terrible road of UN-confessed sin, Paul did the tough love thing... in the hopes of restoration of fellowship.

I realize my emphasis on grace is both a personal one as well as one where I hope the believer/church would delight in just who they are in the Lord.  "Law talk" has gotten a foothold in the body and it is hurting the work of the Spirit, partly because we just don't trust our brethren with grace alone, and would rather put out some 'rules' to prevent sin, when it takes a BODY (Christ's) to do that.

Again, because I'm writing just a small fraction of the important things on this subject, I would do well to put down the emphasis I see from heaven regarding 
1) any false claim that sin can be first place in a "new man", and that 
2) In this new man we are 'dead' to it by being baptized (Spirit baptism... see below) into the pure, complete body of our Lord.

*Romans 6:1-4*
*Believers Are Dead to Sin, Alive to God*

6   What shall we say then? Are we to   continue in sin so that grace may increase? <sup class="versenum">2 </sup>  May it never be! How shall we who   died to sin still live in it? <sup class="versenum">3 </sup>Or do you not know that all of us who have been   baptized into   Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? <sup class="versenum">4 </sup>Therefore we have been   buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was   raised from the dead through the   glory of the Father, so we too might walk in   newness of life.


Finally, in other words... you have new clothing on, _why would you put on the old rags of the old dead life_?

Peace!


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## StriperAddict (Aug 27, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> No actually what I am asking is do you believe that a man can truly come to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ and live a lifetime of carnality?


 
An oops here... I just saw the word "lifetime"... 

Scripture speaks about all a believers works at the judgement seat of Christ were "burnt up".... yet He himself shall be saved.  
I can only speculate on how long that person lived that way.  Quite miserable, I'm sure. A man who, like the prodigal son, didn't realize how much God the Abba Father loved him.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 27, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> An oops here... I just saw the word "lifetime"...
> 
> Scripture speaks about all a believers works at the judgement seat of Christ were "burnt up".... yet He himself shall be saved.
> I can only speculate on how long that person lived that way.  Quite miserable, I'm sure. A man who, like the prodigal son, didn't realize how much God the Abba Father loved him.



Your 'belief' doesn't fall in line with the expectation and onward teachings of Jesus Christ or His apostles as they taught the Christians of the early church.

The prodigal son repented and returned home!  Only then did the party begin.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 27, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Your 'belief' doesn't fall in line with the expectation and onward teachings of Jesus Christ or His apostles as they taught the Christians of the early church.
> 
> The prodigal son repented and returned home! Only then did the party begin.


 
True as far as the "church" party.  It had to be the Father making known the value of His returning son to the assembly, and the bible teaches He's done that (both us and the prodigal) throughout the story and in scripture. That's the main point I'm getting at, in case I'm not clear. Sorry, but even I don't like how I put down my thoughts... many times!


But "sonship" (the prodigal's identity as the son of the Father) was never an issue with the _Father_. The Father was well aware of what the son would do with the inheritance, and it never surprised Him. The story picks up after the son runs out of resources (a picture of the flesh, as in our "own" strategies apart from God I suppose?). He then reherses a speech he feels will win himself acceptance again. He thought he was unworthy of his Father's acceptance. His unworthiness had him believe he could only _function as a servant_ back at the ranch.

Was he not the Father's son (his _identity_) all through this time?

And the story shows that the Father had _already forgiven_ him and was all ready to _fully accept_ him ... even _before he returned home_. 
The story shows us that Abba Father relates to us from a forgiving heart because of His unconditional love.  

Did not Christ forgive us all our sins? Past, present and future?  It's hard to passionatly love someone whom you feel doesn't forgive or accept you.

But forgiveness happened completly when the Son of God bore them 2000 years ago.  

That truth begs the question... _how many of our sins were future_ when they were forgiven at the cross ??

Ans:  _All_ of them.

As a christian lives out his life under grace, he may be pressured to project a type of a Mr. Law on to Jesus, a tragic mistake.  But even if we should want to bring a "law-grace" balancing act into scope, it still doesn't (law) do for us what any single newfound freedom in grace would do for motivating us to live a godly lifestyle....  that a thousand laws (with no power nor authority) would do.  
Understanding grace is the single consistent thing that will keep the redeemed in "the fold", and that same grace will bring back the repentant.
Grace is never angry nor disgusted in me, the real holy, blameless person _in Christ,_ the new man, new creation He made me... nothing of myself! What great news!

Mr. Law, the perfectionist, will never be pleased with me. Even "fully" satisfied by my religious behavior (an impossibility), he still shouts "More! More!". Praise God that in Christ the law was nailed to the cross, being the enmity.  And Jesus Christ covered it all... every jot and tittle, so that ALL of it is fulfilled in us who walk by His Spirit.

Love, the final true motivator:
In the Song of Solomon, it was clear that the bride longed for her husband. But it is the husband in the story who longed for the bride even more. (Song 4:9-11) ... A great picture of the intimate relationship between Christ and His bride. 

Peace


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## Michael F. Gray (Aug 27, 2012)

It was the great Apostle Paul who said, "that which I would not do, that I do; that which I wouldst do, that I do not". Every day every believer fights a spiritual battle. Dr. Bob Jones said one's character is what you do in the dark when you think nobody is looking. As a christian for over 36 years I can attest the battle(s) are not the same as they were in the beginning. That being said, no flesh is beyond being tempted. "Let he that thinketh he standeth take heed, lest he fall." I've watched pastors fall in sin, and we are all in danger of doing the same if we get our eyes off the cross.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 27, 2012)

I expect that much of our thoughts get lost between our brain and the forum.  Typed words often fall short of expressing our minds.  I think that's why there's a lot concerning God that we don't know.

For 20 years there's been a lot of talk about a person being saved as a result of something they believed many years earlier in their life.  In many ways, it's now being referred to as the "grace verses works" argument within Christianity.
Yet, in my 50 years of being a Christian I don't believe I've ever met one single person who believe one could be saved by their own works.  That being the case, I'm not sure why the discussion ever began or why it continues now....... other than it being proof that there is a miscommunication concerning the subject.

But there are two facts that all Christians really need to understand.

1)  No person will ever enter into heaven simply because they did good works.
2)  No one will ever enter into heaven simply because Christ bore the sins of the world 2000 years ago.

Something else is required.....     *Heart*.

All that God had ever wanted was the hearts of all the people of Israel.
Through Jesus Christ He sought people's hearts in the purest way possible.  "I give you my Son, you give me yourself".

Different sentences of the Gospel says things other than "heart", but all writers ultimately get to the issue of one's heart.

Jesus said:  "Unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the Pharisees".......  What was the Pharisees missing? ....  Heart.

After all the ways Paul had encouraged and admonished the people of the church in Corinth he made this statement in his second letter.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you—unless indeed you fail the test?

Jesus' death on the cross means nothing to the person who doesn't have a heart for Christ.

When John said:  "If you're walking in the light, as Christ Himself is light, His blood will continually cleanse you of your sins"...  John was talking about a person's heart.

David was a man of many sins, but his heart belonged to God.
Paul(Saul) was a man who persecuted the church, but his heart belonged to God.  

In the Prodigal son(Luke 15), the father told his oldest son.....  "31..... ‘Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.’”

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace." (Romans 8:6) 

A Christian's heart is actually located in their mind, not in their chest.

Each person must look to him or herself.  "Am I?"
No one else can fully know.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I expect that much of our thoughts get lost between our brain and the forum.  Typed words often fall short of expressing our minds.  I think that's why there's a lot concerning God that we don't know.
> 
> For 20 years there's been a lot of talk about a person being saved as a result of something they believed many years earlier in their life.  In many ways, it's now being referred to as the "grace verses works" argument within Christianity.
> Yet, in my 50 years of being a Christian I don't believe I've ever met one single person who believe one could be saved by their own works.  That being the case, I'm not sure why the discussion ever began or why it continues now....... other than it being proof that there is a miscommunication concerning the subject.
> ...



Now this is preaching so fine that it seems like just plain talking one to another.  I love it. Put this bit here in safe keeping, put borders on it. It will ring true in six hundred yrs as it does now. Leave this to your grand children, and their grand children and they will know that grandpaw Ronnie T made a genuine difference in this here old world.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 27, 2012)

Ronnie T;7159573

But there are two facts that all Christians really need to understand.

1)  No person will ever enter into heaven simply because they did good works.
2)  No one will ever enter into heaven simply because Christ bore the sins of the world 2000 years ago.

Something else is required.....     [B said:
			
		

> Heart[/B].
> 
> All that God had ever wanted was the hearts of all the people of Israel.
> Through Jesus Christ He sought people's hearts in the purest way possible.  "I give you my Son, you give me yourself".
> ...


]


I too agree there is more to salvation than the two items you listed. This "heart" you mention, could it be possessed by a "carnal Christian"?
There is no way for a "heart Christian" to lose this "heart"?


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## BT Charlie (Aug 27, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> StriperAddict,
> 
> How long do you believe someone who claims to be in fellowship with Christ can stay in a state of carnality and still be Christian?[/QUOTe
> 
> ...


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## Ronnie T (Aug 27, 2012)

"that grandpaw Ronnie T made a genuine difference in this here old world."

There's a good chance I've done a lot more harm than I've done good.

.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> ]
> 
> 
> I too agree there is more to salvation than the two items you listed. This "heart" you mention, could it be possessed by a "carnal Christian"?
> There is no way for a "heart Christian" to lose this "heart"?



I'm thinking  "a heart christian"  as you say will not loose it, it being their relationship with God, this "heart", even if they litterally loose their minds. 

And sometimes we may be a little tired tonight, slip up, but in the Lord with trust--- we'll be alright tomorrow.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 27, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> "that grandpaw Ronnie T made a genuine difference in this here old world."
> 
> There's a good chance I've done a lot more harm than I've done good.
> 
> .



Probably! ( Bet you didn't think I'd say that! ) But most of it is routinely forgotten remember. So we will not look but to the future with hope. LOL

Seriously, what you wrote is inspiring.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 28, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Striper, thank you for your most excellent response.  Please be assured that it will recieve the study and consideration that it so richly deserves.  I'm sure that I will have questions, but I foolishly posted my question at a time when I will not have internet access for the next few days, so the questions will not come for a little while.



Sorry for the long delay in responding.  I guess I didn't have the questions I anticipated after my reading.

Having read through the Corinthian letters, I have become more aware than before of the precarious position that Paul was in with the church which he had founded, and some of the factors outside of that body which bore heavily on his successfully dealing with the problems there.  

As to the assumption of faith that Paul expresses; that is his way in all of the epistles that we have (which I believe to be an expression of love and humility). In this case he seems to make more effort than usual, both in the first and second letter,but especially in the first, knowing that the reproofs that he must deliver (the man who has his father's wife being only one of several) will be very hard to accept as coming with the love which he intends.  I am convinced that such can only be accomplished through spiritual guidance.

As to any question of the salvation of some individuals in the Corinthian church, such an implication would surely doom Paul's chances of succeeding in the task at hand.  (Nor do I recall his having claimed to know that anyone was not saved, with the possible exception of false teachers)  He did, however, after learning that the grief caused by his first letter was short lived state that "godly grief produces a repentance that leads to salvation without regret ..." (2 Cor. 7:10), referencing the repentance produced by his first letter.

I do not believe that the man who had his father's wife is said to have been "returned back to full fellowship in the Corinthian church”.  He was forgiven for the harm he had done to the fellowship, he was shown love, but I don't see that his reaction is recorded.  I don't even see that he is a major player is this situation.  The reproof is to the believer's in the congregation; “And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn?”, “Your boasting is not good”, etc.

Yes, there is much carnality on display, and it is condemned.  Condemned is such a way as to bring about repentance and growth in knowledge and obedience by those who believed.

The point in Corinthians is not “that there is no carnality that can destroy the soul and spirit of a believer”, though that may be true.  The point in Corinthians is that the mission of the church is to make disciples.  The reason for making disciples is that the world may know that Jesus Christ is Lord, and it is He who said "He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him."

After having read what I wrote it seems that I'm back to stagnant sanctification.  Yes, there are carnal believers, but they do not fall between worldly and spiritual, they are spirtual and growing.  For any who might concure, we have a mighty lesson to apply in Paul's dealings with the church at Corinth.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 28, 2012)

*I love the smell of grace in the morning....   !*

Michael F. Gray & hummer...  well said.  I'd love to comment but I suspect any comments of mine may offset some great points on the thread.

So .... I'll toss out an idea.  I am nearly completed with a book by Steve McVey called Grace Walk. I have not read a book, aside from holy writ, that has loosened the chains of death as this one has.

If anyone would like to read it, either grab a copy (internet search may have you find it for about $10) or hit me up here and I'll pass my copy along. I hesitate to do that since it has underlines, scribbles, questions, comments... and I don't want my 'stuff' to influence how God might speak to you with it. Besides, I guarantee you're gonna want to keep it.

After reading "Grace Walk", c'mon back here and let's prayerfully chew on it. 
If there is enough interest, we'll pull up a new thread in here.

Love, grace and peace be yours in abundance... through Christ the Lord

~Walter


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## thedeacon (Aug 28, 2012)

We need to be careful of wanting someone to stand on one side or other of a line that was never drawn by God.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 28, 2012)

Deacon, that resonates with me.  Thank you.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 28, 2012)

Quote: (thedeacon)
"We need to be careful of wanting someone to stand on one side or other of a line that was never drawn by God." End Quote:  Yep...there is something to this. 
--------------------------------------------------
Jeremiah 17;5 

Thus says the Lord:


“Cursed is the man who trusts in man
And makes flesh his strength,
Whose heart departs from the Lord."

-------------------------------------------

Romans 8:13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.


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