# Coyotes for the uninformed



## Mattval

Guys I work in a city hospital.  When I mention Yote hunting I automatically get the response "what do you do with it?"
If I say nothing I get the strange look and the Wasteful speech.
What can I say?
Coyote hunting is important to conservation because of there predation on deer and turkey. I think I read that somewhere.  
Any suggestions?


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## carver

*coyotes*

say your saving someones kitty


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## chase870

enviromentaly friendly fertalizer, all organic and no chemicals


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## shakey gizzard

They are an invasive species that needs to be irradicated!


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## BassWorm

They taste just like chicken if you know how to cook em.


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## killitgrillit

Tell them your trying to save the road runner


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## koyote76

i dont know, if you told someone you ate them, you might get a even stranger look, and response. lol


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## captainhook

They are a non-native species here in Ga. We ahould kill all of them and the English Sparrow. Both are equally dangerous. HaHa


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## SSGN_Doc

Figure out where there favorite restaurant is and say you've got a deal with the owner of "x" who wanted them for something.


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## Throwback

ask him if he eats the cockroaches and rats he catches in his house. 


T


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## TGUN

Throwback said:


> ask him if he eats the cockroaches and rats he catches in his house.
> 
> 
> T



Great answer - that is my basic response when I get the "what a waste" speech. It shuts them up quick. I used to have a picture of a coyote with a fluffy cute kitten in it's mouth (think it was photo shopped but whatever). I would show them that to change their mind about the "Poor Coyote"


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## injun joe

Tell them you use them for crow bait.


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## Nugefan

Throwback said:


> ask him if he eats the cockroaches and rats he catches in his house.
> 
> 
> T


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## DonArkie

best answer to say is "You want to join me & see why I do?"


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## 24point

Just say you eat them and be very serious about it.


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## Mattval

Thanks guys I think I have some ammo for them now!  Hey Mr Don I grew up right across the line in Eagletown, OK!


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## GoodRaven

Tell them you do it for the children...

http://varmintal.com/attac.htm


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## ATC

Mattval said:


> Guys I work in a city hospital.  When I mention Yote hunting I automatically get the response "what do you do with it?"
> If I say nothing I get the strange look and the Wasteful speech.
> What can I say?
> Coyote hunting is important to conservation because of there predation on deer and turkey. I think I read that somewhere.
> Any suggestions?



Kill'em all and ship them over to KOREA!  I ate dog over there and its quite popular


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## Zeus01

I tell everyone I make jerky out of them, it keeps everybody's paws out of my bag of deer jerky.


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## olcowman

Well I am holding judgement on yotes and their impact on the environment until I see some consistent research and data. As of now it is a lot of speculation and independent opinions and a man can find alot of info on the internet supporting either side. I can only go by what I see and that has been a steady growth over the years of both the whitetail and yote populations, often side by side. 

And yes they are not a native species to this state. But until europeans wiped out the state's native deer there always existed an apex "yote- like" predator within our environs. Now that we have artificially manipulated the whitetail herd back to record numbers it appears as if nature has re-supplied an apex predator as needed. (fox hunters did not solely populate the coyote)

If it makes you feel good about yourself, shoot away, kill everyone you see. This is the same bunch that shoots every bobcat that passes their deer stand and it's the same attitude as the idiot that shot the cougar in troup county "just because he seen it".... But coming on here and telling me that your shooting spree is single-handedly saving the state's whitetail population is pathetic and not needed. I think I understand your need to shoot things, I been around folks like that all my life. You don't have to try to justify it as long as it is legal. If thats how you get your kicks go kill em.... and if i ever see them dragging the deer around here down by the throats or suddenly wake up and find all of the deer gone and replaced by these evil yotes.... I might join ya'll.

As of now, I hunt plenty of deer and turkeys right here at the house and the sight of an occasional yote or sneaking bobcat makes the whole experience much more enjoyable. Read some of the books by the conservationist minded hunters and outdoorsmen, those instrumental to the restoration and maintenance of big game animals all over the country in order for us to be able to sport hunt today. There is no mention of wiping the natural predators off the face of the earth, they actually perpetuated the idea of bringing them in for population control and to glean weaker animals from the group. Are you sure your "kill them all" philosophy is helping things along? Have you read anywhere that you need to do that or has somebody of stature or authority told you it was absolutely a need? From where did this all start? The yotes have existing out west for thousands of years without wiping a species out.... how do you figure they are going to start now?

Just calling it the way i see it... now start the tree hugger junk my way.....


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## Daddy Rabbit Kennels

*Rabbit Tracks Everwhere~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~>*

GoodRavin:
Sent you a P.M.
D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>


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## Zeus01

Here is some facts for olcowman. I have been asked to do some coyote control for three high fence deer pens. I spent last saturday with the owner of one of the pens doing some scouting. He told me that last year he had 20 does in his pen that birthed fawns. He said that the coyotes started digging in when the fawns started dropping. By the time deer season had begun he only had 2 fawns left. Coyotes had eaten 18 of his 20 fawns. There are also several studies that have already proved that when fawns are on the ground, they are the main diet of the coyote for those couple of months. There is a study done on Ft. Bragg, and another by the university of Mississippi, that will provide the data that will prove, to anyone with an open mind, the damage these killing machines can cause. Why listen to someones opinion that is trying to be controversial to sell a book, when you can actually read the results of the actual scientific studies that prove otherwise.


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## olcowman

Zeus01 said:


> Here is some facts for olcowman. I have been asked to do some coyote control for three high fence deer pens. I spent last saturday with the owner of one of the pens doing some scouting. He told me that last year he had 20 does in his pen that birthed fawns. He said that the coyotes started digging in when the fawns started dropping. By the time deer season had begun he only had 2 fawns left. Coyotes had eaten 18 of his 20 fawns.



Well, honestly it is not a fact but this man's opinion that his fawns were yote food. Even if he had some scientific/forensic evidence to substantiate his conclusion the fact that these deer are confined in an enclosure would make any assumptions irrevelent, in regards to the the state's free roaming population. The confinement itself could be the primary factor in this case if one assumed it created an isolated, concentrated brood habitat that simply led to opportunistic prey for the coyote. (not to mention the diseases, parasites, stress, etc. associated with cervid confinement)

Regarding the Mississippi research (one of them anyway) the findings indicated that the actual number of fawns predated by the yotes rose significantly during years extremely dry weather conditions. Less ground cover means less places to hide fawns which led to more being eaten. But, the weather also resulted in loss of the normally availble browse, mast, and other sources of nutrition to carry the surviving population thru the winter. Thus when viewed as a whole, it's basic predator/prey co-habitation and in this case, the coyotes were actually benefitting the deer herd in the long run by removing some of the young prior to a "lean" season.

Like I said earlier, you can find alot of different opinions on the web concerning this subject but myself.... I got three or four problems right off the bat with alot of the anti-yote folks as far as their version of the facts, but right now... fact is I am going fishing with my brother! There isn't a clear answer over all, yet IMO concerning the effect of the coyote on the state's deer herd, but if you want to hear my side... I'll run it by you later after I catch me a mess of fish?


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## tree cutter 08

its bad when you see 50-60 deer during a season and only 3 fawns. its a growing problem in the last several years. the deer population is down from what it use to be and will stay like that until something changes. deer have a hard enough time surviveing in the mountains as it is. this is just my opinion, but i will kill every coyote i get a chance at!


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## bwsmith

I am still undecided on Coyotes.  I have seen evidence going both ways as far as how they destructive they are.  One indicator is that Nature Centers and Wildlife Rehabilitators are no longer required to euthanize Coyote pups as they have been previously.  So perhaps there is new data that I am not aware of.  There is also evidence in a study done by a colleague of mine that indicates that when the Coyote population is overhunted in an area, the females begin producing larger litters more frequently.  If that is reasoning for or against their hunting is a matter of opinion.  I am still not certain if I would take one if it crossed the field.  The gentleman who owns the land that I hunt on asked that Coyotes be shot on site so I may take one out of courtesy to him.  But I need to find some links to actual studies rather than anecdotal evidence.  That being said, as someone who works with threatened species in Georgia, I have little tolerance for any feral species.


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## Zeus01

like I said olcowman, anyone with an open mind would see. So you go fishing and I'll kill your share of yotes for you.


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## Mattval

Ok how about I just love to hunt. Coyotes are an awesome animal to go head to head with and hunt.  They are very smart. So  I will hunt them.


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## arrendale8105

I could care less about the deer fawns, i just know that here we hardly have any rabbits and my uncle and grandfather said that before cyotes moved in you't see hundreds of them.  they hunted them with beagles and didn't even shoot them most of the time, but they  said that back then you could hunt rabbit after rabbit all day everyday.  now your doing good to find 1 o2 two good races in a day of hunting.  Its not even worth raising dogs here for and its a shame because i love doing it but its not worth it


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## Real1

arrendale8105 said:


> I could care less about the deer fawns, i just know that here we hardly have any rabbits and my uncle and grandfather said that before cyotes moved in you't see hundreds of them.  they hunted them with beagles and didn't even shoot them most of the time, but they  said that back then you could hunt rabbit after rabbit all day everyday.  now your doing good to find 1 o2 two good races in a day of hunting.  Its not even worth raising dogs here for and its a shame because i love doing it but its not worth it



How true....Once the cottontail rabbit thrived in New England back 20 years ago.  Now it is protected in some regions from hunting.  Coyotes are the problem and the reason for no closed seasons.


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## Miguel Cervantes

captainhook said:


> They are a non-native species here in Ga.


 
You sure about that? Would you say the same about elk and cougars and bald eagles?


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## 1ncamo

olcowman said:


> Well I am holding judgement on yotes and their impact on the environment until I see some consistent research and data......



http://www.jstor.org/pss/3802645

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3801181

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3808280

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3801187

http://www.jstor.org/pss/3783887

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2426345

Not saying youre wrong or right, but heres just a few links to research articles. 

If you care to explore further: 

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=fawn+predation+by+coyotes&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart

Happy reading.


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## bwsmith

That is some interesting reading, but I don't think that anyone is going to argue that Coyotes play a significant role in fawn predation.  Although 79% is a significantly higher number than I would have guessed. I think the question, at least in my mind, is if, ecologically speaking, that is the niche that they are to fill.  I was under the impression that they were a native species in Georgia.  My expertise is in herpetofauna so I am trying to get the facts straight.  Personally, I am not going to kill a predator just because we are competing for the same prey.  However, if a feral species is causing damage to my native Georgia fauna and flora, then I will certainly do what I can to reduce the population.  

So I guess I just have a few questions that I have not been able to find scientifically based answers for.

1. Are Coyotes native to Georgia?  If not, when and how were they introduced (i.e. migration or introduction)?

2. Are the Coyotes filling the niche in Georgia of other predators that were once more prevalent such as Wolves and Cougars?

3. Is there evidence that Coyotes actually are causing disproportional damage to the ecosystems in Georgia compared to other predators in the past?

Now if the answers to these prove that the Coyote is a destructive invasive species, then Hogs and Coyotes will be my primary prey as a conservationist.  And other invasives such as dillos, geckos, iguanas, boids, starlings, etc will continue to be capture or eliminate on sight.  While I appreciate the beauty of all of these animals, I want future generations in Georgia to be able to enjoy such amazing creatures as Deer, Bobcats, Gopher Tortoises, Eastern Indigo Snakes, and Red Tail Hawks.


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## Miguel Cervantes

bwsmith said:


> That is some interesting reading, but I don't think that anyone is going to argue that Coyotes play a significant role in fawn predation. Although 79% is a significantly higher number than I would have guessed. I think the question, at least in my mind, is if, ecologically speaking, that is the niche that they are to fill. I was under the impression that they were a native species in Georgia. My expertise is in herpetofauna so I am trying to get the facts straight. Personally, I am not going to kill a predator just because we are competing for the same prey. However, if a feral species is causing damage to my native Georgia fauna and flora, then I will certainly do what I can to reduce the population.
> 
> So I guess I just have a few questions that I have not been able to find scientifically based answers for.
> 
> 1. Are Coyotes native to Georgia? If not, when and how were they introduced (i.e. migration or introduction)?
> 
> 2. Are the Coyotes filling the niche in Georgia of other predators that were once more prevalent such as Wolves and Cougars?
> 
> 3. Is there evidence that Coyotes actually are causing disproportional damage to the ecosystems in Georgia compared to other predators in the past?
> 
> Now if the answers to these prove that the Coyote is a destructive invasive species, then Hogs and Coyotes will be my primary prey as a conservationist. And other invasives such as dillos, geckos, iguanas, boids, starlings, etc will continue to be capture or eliminate on sight. While I appreciate the beauty of all of these animals, I want future generations in Georgia to be able to enjoy such amazing creatures as Deer, Bobcats, Gopher Tortoises, Eastern Indigo Snakes, and Red Tail Hawks.


 
Yes, Coyotes are native to Georgia, along with Cougars and various other predators that help keep the balance.


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## Throwback

I thought the limit being raised to 10 does was the reason the population was becoming extinct. Before that it was not having a physical tag for the deer. Now I find out it's coyotes. 


T


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## Miguel Cervantes

Personally I think all previous predators that were native to the state should be re-introduced. It would give the tree huggers something to worry about and take the focus off of hunters in general.


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## 1ncamo

most everything Ive read says that coyotes are native to the south western US, however, the midwest and east have had thier own predator populations decimated over time as well, the red wolf, cougars and such. Im not a scientist, so I really dont know, but I do try and read. Either way, knowing how canines reproduce and can quickly fill the void left by the elimination of a native predator species, I would be concerned for the native game animals in an area where coyotes or wolves are being introduced. Just look at how the wolves they planted up north in Idaho or Montana have quickly reached the targeted "substainable" number and are now taking a heavy toll on the game species up there. Here in the west, coyote hunting has been a pastime since long before any of us were alive and there has been little to no negative impact on the population, they just kep on producing! Once the coyotes take a firm hold, theres no getting rid of them or even putting a serious dent in thier numbers, we will have plenty of targets to hunt for a long time to come. 

Question for the old timers: When do you remeber coyotes showing up or have they alway ben around? Have you seen the numbers increase, decrease or stay the same since you can remember?


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## Throwback

Guess that makes me an old timer...


Their population started booming around the 80's. 

No one I know had seen one before then. My dad grew up here (born in the early 40's) and he had never seen or heard one till then. 




T


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## arrendale8105

Throwback said:


> Guess that makes me an old timer...
> 
> 
> Their population started booming around the 80's.
> 
> No one I know had seen one before then. My dad grew up here (born in the early 40's) and he had never seen or heard one till then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> T


My uncle said the same thing.  He said they never seen, heard, or even heard of 1 growing up.  He started hearing about them showing up in the early 80's and saw one for the first time on the family farm in the summer of 88.  He trapped his entire childhood and until 1974 and never even seen a track of one.  In my opinion that means they are not "native species" but rather invasive species.  How they got here he don't know.  he said he's heard several different opinions/stories of how they came to be here, but don't know for a fact.  I say KILL THEM ALL


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## olcowman

Sparky1 said:


> Yes, Coyotes are native to Georgia, along with Cougars and various other predators that help keep the balance.



Sorry to correct you but they are not native to the state. Many are quick to blame fox hunters for introducing them to the state but there exists ample evidence of a pattern of migration from the west as coyote populations began to expand their ranges. Their expansion hit Ga in the late seventies and eighties and have since continued on to the coast. 

Herein lies one of my questions, based on figures provided, the yote and the whitetail populations both grew at tremendous rates during this same period. We all witnessed deer, often followed by yotes, take up residence side by side in both rural and urban enclaves. Why (and when) has this co-existence suddenly turned so perilous to the state's whitetails? 

This latest round of "All my deer are gone" sure seemed to pop up soon after the limit on does was pretty much threw wide open all across the state. If you live in west central Ga don't surprised to see even less deer as I spent just a few hours at FDR state park observing their latest hunt and I saw does piled 5 and 6 high being hauled out by the truckload. Try going back and reading some of the reports on this forum and just for fun calculate the number of does harvested.... I bet it would surprise a heap of folks. 

I ain't so sure that we should be laying this much blame at the feet of the coyote? And in answer to another question on here ... yes there did exist a predator like the yote. The red wolf is almost genetically identical to the coyote and at one time was abundant across the southeast. The european settlers wiped them out because they were "eating all the deer" and because they did occasionally prey on domesticated livestock. And of course, rather ironically those same folks wiped out our state's whitetail herd shortly thereafter.....


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## Daddy Rabbit Kennels

*Rabbit Tracks Everwhere~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~>*

Hello, I was born and raised here, in North East, Ga. in 1940!  So I can say that I am qualified to say that the Coyotes, are NOT Native too this part of the state!

I have been and continue to be a Rabbit hutner! I own property, and just like the deer huters, fix food plots for their deer I do  the same for my Rabbits!

The Coyotes have taken over lots off my bottom land and I have a very hard time keeping, many rabbits on said property to run my Beagle hounds !

AT 70 years old, I have taken up coyote hunting, had a young fellow, Mr. Mike take up some time with me, teaching me how too hunt them!!  He called in one and shot it for me and I just did the same thing!  I enjoy the challange, but my intentions was too help get them off my property, so I can continue to raise and train my Beagle hounds, to track rabbits!

I had a pack of coyotes Kill one off my Field Champions, a number off years ago here on my property! I found out from a good freind that lives out West, Oklahoma that they run small bells, on their hounds collars, this will keep the coyotes from attacking their hounds!  So I been running the bells now for many years, never had any more problems, but I still intend to do lots of setting in the swamps at with my 12G. in full Camo this summer and fall. These two we just took out, a male and a female is just the beginning!!

Keep Looking up!

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Nicodemus

I saw my first one in the mid 70s, in Wheeler County.


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## HillbillyJim

They are undocumented aliens and are not natives of the area. Therefore since I can't send them back across any particular border to their native land, I eliminate them from my land. Gov't (DNR) doesn't assist in protecting us from this invasion and in fact they consistently say there is no documented negative impact of these aliens being here.  So much like Arizona, we hunters tend to take responsibility for cleaning up a mess made by others.


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## Inthegarge

HillbillyJim said:


> They are undocumented aliens and are not natives of the area. Therefore since I can't send them back across any particular border to their native land, I eliminate them from my land. Gov't (DNR) doesn't assist in protecting us from this invasion and in fact they consistently say there is no documented negative impact of these aliens being here.  So much like Arizona, we hunters tend to take responsibility for cleaning up a mess made by others.



BRAVO................well stated.......................... (originally from Arizona)  RW


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## storeman

Tell them it taste like chicken


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## Throwback

HillbillyJim said:


> They are undocumented aliens and are not natives of the area. Therefore since I can't send them back across any particular border to their native land, I eliminate them from my land. Gov't (DNR) doesn't assist in protecting us from this invasion and in fact they consistently say there is no documented negative impact of these aliens being here.  So much like Arizona, we hunters tend to take responsibility for cleaning up a mess made by others.



what exactly is georgia dnr supposed to do to protect us from them that hasn't been tried in other states (and failed or at least had a minimal impact)? 

Where is the money going to come from to implement this program? Sell a WMA? Increase license fees? Close down a PFA that thousands a year enjoy (and have been paying for)? 

My close family owns around 400 head of brood cows. That means about 400 calves hit the ground on our land every year in all months of the year. Through the years I can tell you of numerous times that PET DOGS (with collars and all) have killed more livestock than the coyotes have ever dreamed of. That is a fact. 

I have seen dogs chasing deer I can't tell you how many times. I have never seen a coyote doing that. 

IMO and experience, feral dogs and cats, are ten times the problem with wildlife than coyotes are. 



T


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## Bkeepr

Wish we could collect a bounty on them, I could use the cash!


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## HillbillyJim

I've seen yotes chasing both deer and turkeys on my hunting lease.  A member of my club has seen them take down a doe.  And lastly, my lease holder has lost calves to yotes.  So believe what you want to, but yotes are a real problem in this state.  DNR knows they are a problem but continues to say not and that's what hacks me off.


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## olcowman

HillbillyJim said:


> I've seen yotes chasing both deer and turkeys on my hunting lease.  A member of my club has seen them take down a doe.  And lastly, my lease holder has lost calves to yotes.  So believe what you want to, but yotes are a real problem in this state.  DNR knows they are a problem but continues to say not and that's what hacks me off.



Did your lease holder actually witness these coyotes take his calves? Hate to burst your bubble but yote predation on cattle is rare even in areas where they have co-existed for hundreds of years. 99% of the time the loss is due too poor management or domesticated dogs or both. I would guess that yotes and ufo's share equallyg in the 1% I left out. These are facts that are available on the web and events I have experienced in the last 40 or so years in cattle or livestock endeavors. (except for the ufo thing, i was just trying to fit in with ya'll i reckon?) 

Maybe a goat or a lamb every once and a while, but you have absolutely NO proof for anything in your post other than "other people told me", "somebody seen" and then of coarse your "dnr conspiracy theory" . Very compelling reasons for me to throw away a lifetime of experience and all my common sense and pile in with ya'll..... don't you agree? 

Just man up and admit the truth...you get your jollies killing things? Relax you aint the only one...it aint about the tradition or the hunt itself...its just pure "big gun + anything dead = big man. Lot's of folks are compelled this way and many also feel some need to publically express some sort of pathetic tenet or rationilization for this behaviour. When you resort to "somebody told me" or "this feller I know" well it just shows a lack of imagination in my opinion. 

Your actions ain't bothering me as far as killing yotes and other natural predators on your own property or within the established laws currently set forth. I just wonder sometimes how many youngsters and hunters just starting out stumble across one of these "the dnr is your enemy" or "coyotes killed my cousin's brother in law's uncle's grandad's prized angus bull" posts and actually might not realize that it contains no truths?

Ya'll realize that there actually exists some isolated areas that it is quite apparant that the coyote may be effecting the native game animals in a negative way to some extent? Although most research is still on-going and factors such as drought, cervid disease infestation, urban sprawl, modern farming practices, etc. are still being scrutinized as far their impact within the environs, at least it is credible, scientific effort based in reality.  

When you resort to  calling them "undocumented aliens" and arguing among yourselves whether or not they are really "native" or not, and throw in some dnr conspiracy theories, I don't care how many times ya'll pat each other on the back and quote each other's brilliant posts, it just brings the entire forum down a notch or two on the intelligence scale.... Bless your hearts boys, but put your heads together and at least try and find a more plausible, even if still dishonest, front to hide behind.

The rest of us will have to stick to something mundane like "we enjoy the challenge of predator hunting and it ain't gonna upset the balance if we glean a yote or two out every once and a while".... I know that pales in comparison to "I'm saving the state's deer herd and ensuring we all got hamburger to eat while fighting the evil ninjas sent out by the dnr to thwart my efforts in stopping rabid hoardes of yotes from eventually taking over the planet and installing a pack-like government hierarchy and enslaving the human race to act as servants and a source of raw meat to the new canid rulers of earth"..... but i reckon we can't all be the cowboys?


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## ABAChunter

*Coyotes were the primary cattle predators* -- they killed 97,000 cattle in 2005, followed by domestic dogs -- which killed 21,900 cattle. Wolves killed remarkably few cattle, 4,400 head, as did the felids (USDA, 2006) [Figure 2]. 
heres the website *http://www.goagro.org/wildlife_and_agriculture.htm*


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## ABAChunter

olcowman said:


> Did your lease holder actually witness these coyotes take his calves? Hate to burst your bubble but yote predation on cattle is rare even in areas where they have co-existed for hundreds of years. 99% of the time the loss is due too poor management or domesticated dogs or both. I would guess that yotes and ufo's share equallyg in the 1% I left out. These are facts that are available on the web and events I have experienced in the last 40 or so years in cattle or livestock endeavors. (except for the ufo thing, i was just trying to fit in with ya'll i reckon?)
> 
> Maybe a goat or a lamb every once and a while, but you have absolutely NO proof for anything in your post other than "other people told me", "somebody seen" and then of coarse your "dnr conspiracy theory" . Very compelling reasons for me to throw away a lifetime of experience and all my common sense and pile in with ya'll..... don't you agree?
> 
> Just man up and admit the truth...you get your jollies killing things? Relax you aint the only one...it aint about the tradition or the hunt itself...its just pure "big gun + anything dead = big man. Lot's of folks are compelled this way and many also feel some need to publically express some sort of pathetic tenet or rationilization for this behaviour. When you resort to "somebody told me" or "this feller I know" well it just shows a lack of imagination in my opinion.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> theres your proof man.....you say it is 99 % poor management or dogs. Well dogs killed 1/3 of what coyotes did. COYOTES KILLED ALMOST 100,000 CALVES!!!!!! want more proof????????


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## BornToHuntAndFish

Mattval said:


> Guys I work in a city hospital.  When I mention Yote hunting I automatically get the response "what do you do with it?"
> If I say nothing I get the strange look and the Wasteful speech.
> What can I say?
> *Coyote hunting is important to conservation because of their predation on deer and turkey*. I think I read that somewhere.
> Any suggestions?



Good answer.  Keep the faith & keep up the good work!


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## Throwback

HillbillyJim said:


> I've seen yotes chasing both deer and turkeys on my hunting lease.  A member of my club has seen them take down a doe.  And lastly, my lease holder has lost calves to yotes.  So believe what you want to, but yotes are a real problem in this state.  DNR knows they are a problem but continues to say not and that's what hacks me off.



I believe what I see. I am from Missouri. 


OTOH, there has been some research recently that shows that in certain areas, coyotes are more aggressive towards livestock than others. 

We DO see them in the pasture, normally they eat calf afterbirth and calf manure when they are on their mother's colostorum. This is with a sum total of around 15,000 calves hitting the ground on my and my relative's property in the last 35 to 40 years. 

personally, I think overall they have more of a direct impact on the turkey population than deer, but that is just my opinion. We have noticed a drop in the turkey pop around our place, but then again, all but one of our neighbors that have timber has clear cut their land in the last decade...reckon that has anything to do with lack of turkeys? lol

as far as your "DNR conspiricy theory" there are for all practical purposes NO RESTRICTIONS on taking them at any time at any place by almost any method. Cite me the laws/regulations that are "holding the people back" from wiping out this supposed scourge of coyotes. 

So tell me, and I am asking this for the second time...what EXACTLY is DNR supposed to do that WILL WORK? I am all ears. 



T


----------



## ABAChunter

Throwback said:


> I believe what I see. I am from Missouri.
> 
> 
> OTOH, there has been some research recently that shows that in certain areas, coyotes are more aggressive towards livestock than others.
> 
> We DO see them in the pasture, normally they eat calf afterbirth and calf manure when they are on their mother's colostorum.
> 
> personally, I think overall they have more of a direct impact on the turkey population than deer, but that is just my opinion.
> 
> as far as your "DNR conspiricy theory" there are for all practical purposes NO RESTRICTIONS on taking them at any time at any place by almost any method. Cite me the laws/regulations that are "holding the people back" from wiping out this supposed scourge of coyotes.
> 
> So tell me, and I am asking this for the second time...what EXACTLY is DNR supposed to do that WILL WORK? I am all ears.
> 
> 
> 
> T


here it is...
Coyotes were the primary cattle predators -- they killed 97,000 cattle in 2005, followed by domestic dogs -- which killed 21,900 cattle. Wolves killed remarkably few cattle, 4,400 head, as did the felids (USDA, 2006) [Figure 2]. 
http://www.goagro.org/wildlife_and_agriculture.htm


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## Throwback

ABAChunter said:


> theres your proof man.....you say it is 99 % poor management or dogs. Well dogs killed 1/3 of what coyotes did. COYOTES KILLED ALMOST 100,000 CALVES!!!!!! want more proof????????




And if they would not calve in the winter, many of those wouldn't have happened. 

This was an interesting graph from an interesting website. Look how relatively FEW calves/cattle were killed by coyotes. THAT was oldcowman's point. 

 Did you even see what that website was all about? It was basically a predator worship website.


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## Throwback

ABAChunter said:


> here it is...
> Coyotes were the primary cattle predators -- they killed 97,000 cattle in 2005, followed by domestic dogs -- which killed 21,900 cattle. Wolves killed remarkably few cattle, 4,400 head, as did the felids (USDA, 2006) [Figure 2].
> http://www.goagro.org/wildlife_and_agriculture.htm





You are using data from a predator worship site. 

(see pawprint in the graph above on the top left hand side. It is an animal rights website)


T


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## Throwback

Oh, and another way to say it is, about .09% of all cattle produced die from coyotes. Since they said that 50% of predator deaths are from coyotes. 

using your graphs and website,  of course. 

Which are proving mine and oldcowman's point, BTW. 

T


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## ABAChunter

okay oldcrow did say domesticated dogs are more of a problem then coyotes, which is not true at all by that graph.... yalls point??? Coyotes are not a massive problem becuase people do hunt them. If people didn't hunt them then we would see a substantial difference in the number of turkey, fawns each year and new born calves. Farmers hunt, trap, or hire people to kill coyotes for a reason... becuase they kill cavles. And people hunt them for many more reasons. They can be trophies, hunting coyotes can be filled with adrenaline and also fur takers of america trap them and use the fur.


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## Throwback

I am well versed on the coyote and why people hunt and kill them and I even try to trap them myself. 

My point is, and oldcowman's point too I think, is that they are not the pariah that many think they are---HERE, in the south, because they have a MUCH LARGER food base year round than they do out west and up north. 

Do they kill livestock? Absolutly, only a fool would say otherwise, but many times IN THE SOUTH it is not as big a problem OVERALL as many would have you believe/dream it is. 

T


T


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## olcowman

Throwback said:


> And if they would not calve in the winter, many of those wouldn't have happened.
> 
> This was an interesting graph from an interesting website. Look how relatively FEW calves/cattle were killed by coyotes. THAT was oldcowman's point.
> 
> Did you even see what that website was all about? It was basically a predator worship website.



THANKS Throwback, it was tempting but I am about ranted out on this subject and that was just to easy. Ya'll know fire ants kill more cattle in Georgia in one year than all the suspected "coyote" predations reported in the last ten years. Take some of that macho pent up aggression out in a more positive direction and start running around pastures stomping on fire ants! You'll actually be doing something to save a poor ol' cows life then!

I am amazed at the fact that someone on here is begging for bounties and government aid? That's the generation we all saw coming and filled us with dread.... expected something for nothing and waiting on the govt to bail them out of both real and imaginary circumstances. Lord help us all now, we've got folks trying to overcome poor hunting skills and lack of effort with good ol' fashioned welfare reform.


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## Migraman

On the final day of the 2009 deer season, I shot a coyote that was actively pursuing a small doe.  On my land near Lagrange, we have more deer than rabbits and more crows than songbirds.  the problem is, I am seeing less and less deer, no more rabbits and too many crows.  Coyotes could be the problem with the deer - I dont' know and I don't care.  They are a real challenge and great fun to hunt so I do.  If I kill one and it saves a fawn, so much the better.  I'm not going to not hunt them..  

Do as you like, I will too.

I will say this, we can shoot all of them we want to.  It will not affect the population.  At all.    I have a friend in Scotland who has a pretty big farm (by their standards).  They shoot every red fox they see.  They specifically target stone fences in the spring because vixens bring their litters along the fencetops to hunt.  The farmers shoot the kits first - every one.  

All of that being said, I have never been anywhere that I have seen so many foxes.  They are everywhere.

Shooting Coyotes would be no more effective here.  Trapping may be effective temporarily but we are stuck with them for the long term.  I say use them as a great excuse to get outdoors year round.


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## ABAChunter

olcowman said:


> THANKS Throwback, it was tempting but I am about ranted out on this subject and that was just to easy. Ya'll know fire ants kill more cattle in Georgia in one year than all the suspected "coyote" predations reported in the last ten years. Take some of that macho pent up aggression out in a more positive direction and start running around pastures stomping on fire ants! You'll actually be doing something to save a poor ol' cows life then!



proof?


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## olcowman

ABAChunter said:


> okay oldcrow did say domesticated dogs are more of a problem then coyotes, which is not true at all by that graph.... yalls point??? Coyotes are not a massive problem becuase people do hunt them. If people didn't hunt them then we would see a substantial difference in the number of turkey, fawns each year and new born calves. Farmers hunt, trap, or hire people to kill coyotes for a reason... becuase they kill cavles. And people hunt them for many more reasons. They can be trophies, hunting coyotes can be filled with adrenaline and also fur takers of america trap them and use the fur.



I kinda like that "oldcrow"... was going to change my name to Slim Tallywhacker, but may go with the crow? Anyway I stated that in GA there is more "verified" predation attributed to dogs than yotes. That is on the state's Dept of Ag statistics spread sheet. The graph represents the entire nation. Just for fun, pm me the names of 10 "real" farmers who trap yotes every year. Send me 10 recent pictures of models wearing authentic coyote hide coats.  Check the price of hides or see what a yote will bring you from a fox pen (if you can find one) and tell me it is worth the costs of the traps, your time, the handling and care of, etc. that is involved with this endeavor.

Our ancestors virtually eliminated this state's deer herd and along with it an unrecoverable native predator base. Thanks to the generation or two before us the deer herd was artificially manipulated to numbers thought unattainable and have even become pests and significant liabilites to both the ag industry and urban dwellers in many areas. Compare the negative impact attributed to deer within this state's farms to what the coyote took out of their family's pockets. Deer win bigtime.

Mother nature has somehow managed to provide us with an almost identical replica of one of the whitetail's most significant predators over the ages. Nature at it's most pristine glory in the face of impeccable odds and in defiance of modern man's space age technology and depth defying influence across all environs, and much like the Genesis sixth day creation of beasts of the field. That which man teaches is primeval and the product of millenia upon millenia of "evolution" has suddenly corrected itself in what seems like a blink of an eye. What I see as a marvel and almost miraculous effort of natural balance, when seen threw the eyes of an overly zealous and misinformed and sadly unapreciative excuse of what many now identify as a hunter..... is nothing more than excess trash and an opportunity blow something's brains out for no reason other than the incoherent thought that he has contributed something positive for once in his miserable life and maybe one of his buddies will admire him for a second or two based on his unequivicable nerve and steady aim in the face of such a formidable creature.

Please back off these pathetic attempts to justify a lack of discipline and/or refusal to analyze and research real facts and figures. Make up a good lie or something like "a coyote ate my sister when we was little" or "I was inapropriatly touched by a feller in a coyote coat at the greyhound bus station when I was a kid" ..... at least make it entertaining for us? I get bored purty easy....


----------



## Throwback

T


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## olcowman

ABAChunter said:


> proof?



Bless your heart, are you a student a ABAC? And you don't know how to look this up. Lord they just didn't make enough Dr. Bedels I reckon. Start with Ga Dept of Ag's annual production/progress/outlook reports. The Ga Cattlemen's archives of "State of the Industry" or their "Report from the Commisioner" which may or may not now be combined in a common database. Mr Irvin's office provides over 1,000 reports, statistical evaluations, industry summaries, independant research results and so forth that address every segment and section of the state's agri business.

Sorry i aint the welfare kind of help your used to within my response, I ain't going to do all the work while you sit around and reap the benefits. Go find some conflicted data yourself and throw it all over me. Like that last little gem ya'll came up with..... ----!


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## Throwback

olcowman said:


> Bless your heart, are you a student a ABAC? And you don't know how to look this up. Lord they just didn't make enough Dr. Bedels I reckon. Start with Ga Dept of Ag's annual production/progress/outlook reports. The Ga Cattlemen's archives of "State of the Industry" or their "Report from the Commisioner" which may or may not now be combined in a common database. Mr Irvin's office provides over 1,000 reports, statistical evaluations, industry summaries, independant research results and so forth that address every segment and section of the state's agri business.
> 
> Sorry i aint the welfare kind of help your used to within my response, I ain't going to do all the work while you sit around and reap the benefits. Go find some conflicted data yourself and throw it all over me. Like that last little gem ya'll came up with..... ----!



You do realize that the DNR and Mr. Irvin conspired and manipulated the data to show that so the coyotes would wipe out the deer population for the insurance companies, don't you? 

T


----------



## olcowman

Let me state quickly that I aint a tree hugger nor am I married to or ever had any sort of relations with a coyote (in the Biblical sense anyhow) I sometimes daydream about whoopin' up on a tofu eating card carrying PETA protester and currently sport a very uniform and well earned red enflamed neck. I drive a 4wd F350 diesel and wear overhauls to work about two days a week. I love the Lord and any of them convenience store owners who will honor them "print it yourself" copenhagen coupons. I ain't all that slick on a computer and just looked down and noticed I have spilt some (well a right smart cause I got so carried away typing back at ya'll) of my cornbread and buttermilk i was eating a minute ago on my big ol' beer belly. But that's okay cause I got let my ol'catahoula in for the night and he likes cornbread and buttermilk as much as I do!

I just didn't want anybody to confuse me with being something I ain't or think I was putting on for ya'll. I aint against nobody killing yotes by no means but I don't understand why we can't just be straight up about why we do it?


----------



## olcowman

Throwback said:


> You do realize that the DNR and Mr. Irvin conspired and manipulated the data to show that so the coyotes would wipe out the deer population for the insurance companies, don't you?
> 
> T



Actually no that is not something i have run across. You got any links or data? Gosh, govt agencies and elected politicians out conspiring and manipulating? Sounds about right...


----------



## Lighterknott

olcowman..what kind of game do you hunt?  What about fishing?

just curious...


----------



## Lighterknott

Also...and I am genuinely curious...what was the apex "yote- like" predator that you mentioned?  I would like to read about it.


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## olcowman

Lighterknott said:


> Also...and I am genuinely curious...what was the apex "yote- like" predator that you mentioned?  I would like to read about it.



I have hunted about all game in the N.A. continent over the years. Now, turkey primarily but spend a heap of money on food plots, supplements, etc. here on our place every year to usually actually end up really hunting maybe twice. We got a little deal worked out with some local disadvanted youths and that is the target. And I will fish for anything... can't help it.

Secondly, if you do a little researching and googling, there is some pretty neat information about the red wolf, it's historical  impact and distribution and really interesting... check out the genetic research and the comparison to our yotes!


----------



## ABAChunter

olcowman said:


> Bless your heart, are you a student a ABAC? And you don't know how to look this up. Lord they just didn't make enough Dr. Bedels I reckon. Start with Ga Dept of Ag's annual production/progress/outlook reports. The Ga Cattlemen's archives of "State of the Industry" or their "Report from the Commisioner" which may or may not now be combined in a common database. Mr Irvin's office provides over 1,000 reports, statistical evaluations, industry summaries, independant research results and so forth that address every segment and section of the state's agri business.
> 
> Sorry i aint the welfare kind of help your used to within my response, I ain't going to do all the work while you sit around and reap the benefits. Go find some conflicted data yourself and throw it all over me. Like that last little gem ya'll came up with..... ----!




you can't show the data? then oviously your just talking like you've been doing this entire thread. with nothing to back with that.


----------



## olcowman

ABAChunter said:


> you can't show the data? then oviously your just talking like you've been doing this entire thread. with nothing to back with that.



What? You want me to pull out one of them statistical masterpieces like you came up with? LOL Looking out your backdoor would back me up if you were honest with yourself? If you like to shoot stuff then go on with it, don't let me hold you up. But when you yourself throw out the fact that yotes only are responsible for .018% of all cattle mortality nationwide and then try to tell everyone that you got to kill them to save the livestock industry? Well? I'll just let it lay for now but I done told ya'll they's heap better tales to tell if you need a reason to indiscrementally blast coyotes to feel good about yourself. What about the one where they done eat your sister? I sorta liked that one myself.


----------



## ABAChunter

olcowman said:


> and then try to tell everyone that you got to kill them to save the livestock industry?



please go back and find where i said that.....

and someone on the last page put this website up... http://varmintal.com/attac.htm

People hunt coyote get over it. Maybe it is to make them  feel better, cus when im in the outdoors that sure makes me feel better than anything. 

How about you go bash coyote hunters somewhere else... not here.


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## Sanders150

ok fellas... I hunt only coyotes. I do it because i like to hunt..period. In my opinion deer hunting lost its appeal. I still enjoy the thrill so I guess thats why i do it. To match wits with mothernature on her terms, her turf. Red fox get a hall pass they are just to beautiful. Bobcats well if I see the right one it will be on my mantle, but they mostly get to walk. Grey fox are supper fun to watch due to they're crazy antics. But the wily ol' coyote well he is my passion. I hunt him and him only. For my enjoyment..the end. I just wanted to be the one to admit it. Now back to the debate


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## reds06

Fox hunters brought coyotes east of Mississippi for hunting due to lack of foxes


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## olcowman

Sanders150 said:


> ok fellas... I hunt only coyotes. I do it because i like to hunt..period. In my opinion deer hunting lost its appeal. I still enjoy the thrill so I guess thats why i do it. To match wits with mothernature on her terms, her turf. Red fox get a hall pass they are just to beautiful. Bobcats well if I see the right one it will be on my mantle, but they mostly get to walk. Grey fox are supper fun to watch due to they're crazy antics. But the wily ol' coyote well he is my passion. I hunt him and him only. For my enjoyment..the end. I just wanted to be the one to admit it. Now back to the debate



THIS IS MY POINT! I hunt them on occasion myself purely for these same reasons. Your respect for the other creatures you mentioned is a reflection of your good character The high regard for the tradtion of hunting and your discretion in "not shooting everything in sight"  is quickly becoming "quaint" among the hunting community. It is all about enjoying yourself, apreciating the surroundings, honoring the tradition of the sport by serving as a steward in some way and perhaps putting a little meat on the table or a trophy on the mantle from time to time as a bonus. 

Going out and blasting something by the truckload or indiscrementally killing every carnivore you come across and then trying to come on this forum and make a pitiful attempt to justify your lack of ethics and corrupt behaviour is a sad reflection on the sport as a whole. It is made even worse when no data exists to begin with or the reasoning totally lacks merit or credibility.


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## olcowman

reds06 said:


> Fox hunters brought coyotes east of Mississippi for hunting due to lack of foxes



Some sure did, no doubt about it. Your not suggesting that all the coyotes we now have east of the river are solely due to a few foxpens who participated in this are you? Research, years of data collection, eye-witnesses, and a little common sense says otherwise. I have heard a few others state this and felt that they didn't even feel it was truthful or plausible even as they mouthed the words.


----------



## olcowman

ABAChunter said:


> please go back and find where i said that.....
> 
> and someone on the last page put this website up... http://varmintal.com/attac.htm
> 
> People hunt coyote get over it. Maybe it is to make them  feel better, cus when im in the outdoors that sure makes me feel better than anything.
> 
> How about you go bash coyote hunters somewhere else... not here.



You sure didn't hesitate to use that "graph" (as you called it) in a poor attempt to counter a remark within one of my posts? And then what... posting the link  at least a couple of more times trying to proof your point in exchanges with a couple of others? Exactly how many posts did it take us to convince you that your "ammo" was in favor of our views and how did you feel when it dawned on you that you were the only one on this thread who didn't realize that?

I am not bashing coyote hunting by no stretch of the imagination. I am not even bashing your hunting ethics directly or your extremely poor debating skills. I may vigorously question anyone who would suggest that coyotes are a significant predator on the state's livestock because I know better... and I will challenge anyone who would suggest that killing every single coyote they see is prudent and highly beneficial to the ecosystem, this for a couple of reasons. First of all I am not an idiot and I am able to perform a little armchair research at the very least and glean some info before drawing any sort of conclusions based on "what I've heard", "what happened to my cousin's wife's uncle's neighbor" or "one time I read somewhere". Secondly I was raised to respect the game and the environs where we pursue our activities. I was taught that the act of hunting is more than just pointing and pulling the trigger. The spiritual aspect and the fellowship and traditions that made hunting such an intregal part of our culture were instilled in me by both those who introduced me and taught me the sport personally and by those past pioneers of conservation and true sportsmen who I read about over the years. 

If you just don't get it or no one has ever took the time to show you... even if you are just stubborn and unwilling to consider your actions and disregard for what some of us hold sacred, even just for a moment. I ain't going to bash you brother, I don't hate you or wish you ill will. I probably will vigorously disagree with you here but I hold out hope for you anway. If you aren't breaking a law and if in your heart you feel comfortable with your actions... by all means have at it. Who am I to question this anyhow? When it is all said and done you are the one who has to live by your choices. If you killed every coyote in 3 states I might be a little tore up about you taking away something i enjoy to both hunt from time to time and also something i feel is often beneficial to the overall health of our state's ecosystems in most cases. That'd be the extent of my feelings.

No i don't bash other hunters, poor attitudes or ill informed  idealology might get a little dash of bash... sorry if you got a little splashed on you in the process. Just don't pay me no mind next time.


----------



## ABAChunter

olcowman said:


> Send me 10 recent pictures of models wearing authentic coyote hide coats.



It aint hard to find that just look it up on google.....



olcowman said:


> Going out and blasting something by the truckload or indiscrementally killing every carnivore you come across and then trying to come on this forum and make a pitiful attempt to justify your lack of ethics and corrupt behaviour is a sad reflection on the sport as a whole. It is made even worse when no data exists to begin with or the reasoning totally lacks merit or credibility.



No one on here has said that they blast them by the truck load. Lack of ethic?? No one on here has that. Now if they show off a picture of a truck load of coyotes then i would understand. But no one has even mentioned that.



olcowman said:


> THIS IS MY POINT! I hunt them on occasion myself purely for these same reasons. Your respect for the other creatures you mentioned is a reflection of your good character The high regard for the tradtion of hunting and your discretion in "not shooting everything in sight"  is quickly becoming "quaint" among the hunting community. It is all about enjoying yourself, apreciating the surroundings, honoring the tradition of the sport by serving as a steward in some way and perhaps putting a little meat on the table or a trophy on the mantle from time to time as a bonus.



Most people do hunt them on occasion. I have not seen any proof of these truck loads of coyotes your talking about. Some property owners may say shoot a coyote if it walks near your deer stand. That is their decision. Many people do have respect for the coyotes. They are great trophies like i said before. If they don't then you should pm them and have a debate with them.


----------



## johnweaver

City folks talk about it, country folks live it.


----------



## Daddy Rabbit Kennels

*Rabbit Tracks Everwhere~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~>*

I have read this Entire Post, found it to be very interesting, to say the least.

For this Old Red Neck it's all about the lack of Rabbit's !

Yep, I started too hunting, them old Yotes because they were, working in my Rabbits!

I have always tried, to keep a good supply of rabbits, for my Beagle hounds, and these old Yotes, seem to be getting worse and worse, gotta put a stop too them some how?

Keep Looking Up!
d.r.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`>


----------



## Ruger#3

Daddy Rabbit Kennels said:


> I have read this Entire Post, found it to be very interesting, to say the least.
> 
> For this Old Red Neck it's all about the lack of Rabbit's !
> 
> Yep, I started too hunting, them old Yotes because they were, working in my Rabbits!
> 
> I have always tried, to keep a good supply of rabbits, for my Beagle hounds, and these old Yotes, seem to be getting worse and worse, gotta put a stop too them some how?
> 
> Keep Looking Up!
> d.r.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`>



We are our experiences and here are a few of mine.

I think DR is on target. I walk our club lease alot training my rabbit dogs. I consistently find yote scat with rabbit fur in it. I find alot of it. Last summer the wife and I were running in a large field with a thicket in the middle. Yotes came to the edge of the timber barking at the beagles running the rabbit. I think the bells on the dogs and us in the open is all that kept them from attacking the dogs.

I raised cattle back in the 90s in an area that had yotes. It may have just been my area but I believe I had more damage from stray dogs than yotes. More than once I went to a bellowing old cow and found  her being worried by a dog as her calf layed there.

I like apex predators, I like seeing them. However, when DNR returns herds of elk, bison, along with the deer I'll be more tolerable of their presense. Until then I plan on thinning them out as best I can.


----------



## Jody Hawk

Ruger#3 said:


> Last summer the wife and I were running in a large field with a thicket in the middle. Yotes came to the edge of the timber barking at the beagles running the rabbit. I think the bells on the dogs and us in the open is all that kept them from attacking the dogs.



I can relate to that. A summer or two ago, I was running my dogs. I just sat next to a tree and listened to them while they were running a rabbit. Moments later, I caught movement to my right. I looked and here comes a yote stalking my rabbit dogs. Without a gun to shoot it, I just jumped up and ran towards my dogs hollering. Evidently, it scared the yote off as I never saw it again.


----------



## Ruger#3

Jody Hawk said:


> I can relate to that. A summer or two ago, I was running my dogs. I just sat next to a tree and listened to them while they were running a rabbit. Moments later, I caught movement to my right. I looked and here comes a yote stalking my rabbit dogs. Without a gun to shoot it, I just jumped up and ran towards my dogs hollering. Evidently, it scared the yote off as I never saw it again.



Yep, I'm rarely out with the hounds now that I dont have a dose of lead poison at hand to deal with these nuicances.

Folks have money and time in hunting dogs. I take preventive measures, bells, but I dont intend for one of my hounds to be carried off if I can stop it.


----------



## GAJoe

“In southwestern Georgia, researchers used trail cameras to survey fawn-to-doe ratios in two study areas 2.5 miles apart. They removed 23 coyotes and three bobcats from January to August in an 11,000-acre area, but removed no predators from a nearby 7,000-acre block. 
“Shortly before hunting season, their camera census estimated 0.72 fawns per doe where predators were killed and 0.07 fawns per doe where no predators were killed. Two fawns were present for every three does in the predator removal area, and two fawns were present for every 28 does where no predators were killed. 

“In South Carolina, a threeyear study at the U.S. Forest Service’s Southern Research Station on the 300-square-mile Savannah River Site found only 16 of 60 radio-collared fawns lived past nine weeks, a 27-percent survival rate. Most deaths occurred within five or six weeks of birth. 
"Researchers attributed only 13 percent (five) of those 44 deaths to bobcats. By using DNA samples they confirmed coyote as the predator in 65 percent of the deaths, the probable predator in 15 percent and the most likely in five percent for a total of 85 percent of the 44 dead fawns. 
“DNA samples also concluded that all coyotes kill fawns, not just the dominant, experienced breeders (coyotes). 

“In northeastern Alabama, a two-year study on 2,000 acres convince researchers that coyotes were a limiting factor in the number of fawns recruited into the herd. Coyote scat and stomach content showed fawns were 27.3 percent of the coyote’s July-to-September diet, the region’s peak fawning months. Secondly, researchers documented a staggering jump in fawn abundance after trappers removed 22 coyotes and 10 bobcats between February and July 2007. Fawn-to-doe ratio before the trapping period was 0.52 and 1.1 after removals. A network of trail cameras showed a 190 percent increase in fawn-to-doe ratios after the predator removal.” 

In a patch of land in western South Carolina, USDA researcher John C. Kilgo monitored fawn predation from 2006 to 2008. His results showed that out of the 60 fawns observed, 44 died within eight weeks. Of those 44, 80 percent were either confirmed killed or likely killed by coyotes.

In Georgia, University of Georgia researchers Brett Howze and Robert Warren chose a 29,000-acre swath with a low fawn-to-doe ratio. They removed coyotes from one large study block and kept another block of similar habitat as a control. Fall camera data showed that fawn-to-doe ratios were more than 10 times larger in the area where coyotes were removed than in the control area.

Said University of Georgia biologist Karl Miller in the June issue of Field & Stream: "Coyote predation is the big issue right now. It's something we must take more seriously in whitetail management going forward."


----------



## 1ncamo

olcowman said:


> Did your lease holder actually witness these coyotes take his calves? Hate to burst your bubble but *yote predation on cattle is rare even in areas where they have co-existed for hundreds of years.* 99% of the time the loss is due too poor management or domesticated dogs or both. I would guess that yotes and ufo's share equallyg in the 1% I left out. *These are facts that are available on the web* and events I have experienced in the last 40 or so years in cattle or livestock endeavors. (except for the ufo thing, i was just trying to fit in with ya'll i reckon?)
> 
> Maybe a goat or a lamb every once and a while, but you have absolutely NO proof for anything in your post other than "other people told me", "somebody seen" and then of coarse your "dnr conspiracy theory" . Very compelling reasons for me to throw away a lifetime of experience and all my common sense and pile in with ya'll..... don't you agree?



Facts on the web: 

http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/ca/usda_fact_sheets/usda_fact_sheet_livestock_protection.pdf

_"Coyotes are responsible for the majority of livestock predation. Another NASS survey found that in 2000, coyotes accounted for 65 percent of all cattle and calf losses to predators."_ 

http://www.farmandranchguide.com/articles/2010/03/11/bullseye/livestock_news/live1.txt

_"The most recent record for predator-related cattle losses came in 2005. In that year, nationwide statistics showed coyotes responsible for 51.1 percent of all cattle losses due to predators, excluding Alaska. In Montana, alone, coyotes killed 1,300 calves in 2005."_


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## sureshot375

Another intersting article.  Looks like coyotes are not native to the east.  

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0806_020806_coyote.html


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## olcowman

1ncamo said:


> Facts on the web:
> 
> http://www.aphis.usda.gov/ws/ca/usda_fact_sheets/usda_fact_sheet_livestock_protection.pdf
> 
> _"Coyotes are responsible for the majority of livestock predation. Another NASS survey found that in 2000, coyotes accounted for 65 percent of all cattle and calf losses to predators."_
> 
> http://www.farmandranchguide.com/articles/2010/03/11/bullseye/livestock_news/live1.txt
> 
> _"The most recent record for predator-related cattle losses came in 2005. In that year, nationwide statistics showed coyotes responsible for 51.1 percent of all cattle losses due to predators, excluding Alaska. In Montana, alone, coyotes killed 1,300 calves in 2005."_



If you look at the entire picture they are responsible for .018% of the various things that can kill livestock nationwide. That means the other 99.982% are caused by something other than coyotes.


sureshot375 said:


> Another intersting article.  Looks like coyotes are not native to the east.
> 
> http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/08/0806_020806_coyote.html



Did anyone say they were native? They are almost identical to a former apex predator (red wolf) that once was wide spread around the state but I never implied them as natives.


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## sureshot375

olcowman said:


> Did anyone say they were native? They are almost identical to a former apex predator (red wolf) that once was wide spread around the state but I never implied them as natives.



I believe someone else asked the question earlier in the thread.  Untill today i had no idea that coyotes were not native to georgia.  I had assumed(like bears, mountain lions, elk) that they had been killed off and were making a come back.    I'm not arguing for or against the wholesale slaughter of coyotes.  I don't know enough.  After first reading the thread i did a liitle research for my own edification and found the article and thought it might be of interest to others.


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## olcowman

sureshot375 said:


> I believe someone else asked the question earlier in the thread.  Untill today i had no idea that coyotes were not native to georgia.  I had assumed(like bears, mountain lions, elk) that they had been killed off and were making a come back.    I'm not arguing for or against the wholesale slaughter of coyotes.  I don't know enough.  After first reading the thread i did a liitle research for my own edification and found the article and thought it might be of interest to others.



I gotcha... I reckon I'm old enough to remember when there wasn't no sign of yotes around here at all and then back in the later 70s and early 80s we started hearing rumors and one would show up on a the road somewhere. About that time is when everyone started telling me enjoy the deer and turkey hunting while I could because it would just be a matter of time before they decimated both populations and we would be armpits deep in coyotes. I even remember one gentleman at the cattlemen's meeting warning everyone that in a few years we would have to do all our calving in the barn cause the coyotes would be sitting there with his mouth open to snatch the calf before it hit the ground. Well..........


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## ABAChunter

olcowman said:


> If you look at the entire picture they are responsible for .018% of the various things that can kill livestock nationwide. That means the other 99.982% are caused by something other than coyotes.



.18 not .018 

Livestock Predation Statistics
• Livestock losses attributed to predators, predominantly coyotes, reach about
$71 million annually

According to the National Commission on Small Farms, approximately 92 percent
of all U.S. farms are considered small. *These producers especially feel the
impact of livestock predation.*

•In the absence of a professional,accountable damage management program,
livestock losses to predators could be as much as two to three times higher.


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## meatseeker

Who need statistics, 15 years ago you hardly ever saw a coyote in the mountains. The last 8 or 10 years they have showed up everywhere. The flocks of turkey are half what they were, the quail are gone,less grouse, less deer, less foxes, less stray cats, and rabbits are thin to.And the ground hogs used to be thick too. Thats probably why theres no limit or season on yotes, cause we will never kill em all. I won't kill all the coyotes, just the ones I see.
 What will I do with them....well the worms and buzzards gotta eat to. Thats why i'd never mount one, cause I'd wanna set in the yard and shoot it over and over and over.


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## olcowman

ABAChunter said:


> .18 not .018
> 
> Livestock Predation Statistics
> • Livestock losses attributed to predators, predominantly coyotes, reach about
> $71 million annually
> 
> According to the National Commission on Small Farms, approximately 92 percent
> of all U.S. farms are considered small. *These producers especially feel the
> impact of livestock predation.*
> 
> •In the absence of a professional,accountable damage management program,
> livestock losses to predators could be as much as two to three times higher.



Whoops okay you got me... don't forget that the yotes themselves only contributed to what 51 or 52% of that .18%... I still worry more about fire ants getting a new born calf and yotes is way down my list right now behind domestic dogs, feral hogs, and bigfoot. I would venture a guess that the cattle out west suffer alot more to predation of this type due to a difference in management practices as we tend to confine livestock in smaller spaces and see them more often here in the southeast.

I reckon one of the biggest drawbacks I have is the fact that I have been involved in the livestock industry since before the coyotes joined the picture and I have yet to run across a farmer (other than an occasional sheep or goat farmer without some sort of canine guard) who can say for sure that they lost anything to coyotes. A couple of maybes, one or two I figured it was, but no "I seen them drag it down and eat its". Coyotes would have to generally live by the predator rule of 'energy expelled is less than protien aquired' or they wouldn't last long. Seeing that they aren't considered a 'pack' type hunter like a wolf I can't see why coyotes would feel compelled to fight a 1100lbs brangus cow for her 75lb calf when there is so much other offerings around their environs.

I would have thought that they would have an impact on the rabbits and most of the scat I find appears to have rabbit fur and persimmon seeds in it?


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## Daddy Rabbit Kennels

*Coyote Hunting with a 12.G. Shotgun, Coyote Choke*

Yep, and thats why I get involved, and been setting in the woods with all my Camo on from head too toe! (Wind in my Face Always)
It's all about the Rabbits, and the Fact the Yotes Will Kill a Beagle Hound this time of Year, If you Don't Run a Bell On their Collars!!

D.R.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>


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## HillbillyJim

I've weighed the facts presented and closely followed this debate.   However, my point of view has not changed. I will continue to kill every coyote I can find on my hunting lease!  And if I happen to get a truckload, I will feel no remorse at all. Dead yote=good yote!


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## Throwback

good grief ya'll still arguing over this?

T


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## koyote76

had a calf and a cow get eatin by yotes. they worked the back end of the cow and left her still alive but paralyzed with her back end gone. was a bad time. big mess. hit her just like a pack of wolves. it was in dead of winter, so that may have had something to do with it.  

i will have no mercy on the yotes. 

my turkey population, quail, rabbit and fawn recruitment have gone down ever since the yote showed up. i cant blame it on hogs becasue the yote even took down the hog population. i got more yotes than ever. i try and kill over 30 a year and i doesnt seem to be working. doesnt look like they are going anywhere. i do belive they dont bother livestock as bad as they do local wildlife.  and i believe that they had a big boom of a population rise becasue of large hog numbers. 

once had a yote try and steal my hog dogs left over deer legs. my dog killed that yote while my dog was on a chain.


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## KMAS626

GAJoe said:


> “In southwestern Georgia, researchers used trail cameras to survey fawn-to-doe ratios in two study areas 2.5 miles apart. They removed 23 coyotes and three bobcats from January to August in an 11,000-acre area, but removed no predators from a nearby 7,000-acre block.
> “Shortly before hunting season, their camera census estimated 0.72 fawns per doe where predators were killed and 0.07 fawns per doe where no predators were killed. Two fawns were present for every three does in the predator removal area, and two fawns were present for every 28 does where no predators were killed.
> 
> “In South Carolina, a threeyear study at the U.S. Forest Service’s Southern Research Station on the 300-square-mile Savannah River Site found only 16 of 60 radio-collared fawns lived past nine weeks, a 27-percent survival rate. Most deaths occurred within five or six weeks of birth.
> "Researchers attributed only 13 percent (five) of those 44 deaths to bobcats. By using DNA samples they confirmed coyote as the predator in 65 percent of the deaths, the probable predator in 15 percent and the most likely in five percent for a total of 85 percent of the 44 dead fawns.
> “DNA samples also concluded that all coyotes kill fawns, not just the dominant, experienced breeders (coyotes).
> 
> “In northeastern Alabama, a two-year study on 2,000 acres convince researchers that coyotes were a limiting factor in the number of fawns recruited into the herd. Coyote scat and stomach content showed fawns were 27.3 percent of the coyote’s July-to-September diet, the region’s peak fawning months. Secondly, researchers documented a staggering jump in fawn abundance after trappers removed 22 coyotes and 10 bobcats between February and July 2007. Fawn-to-doe ratio before the trapping period was 0.52 and 1.1 after removals. A network of trail cameras showed a 190 percent increase in fawn-to-doe ratios after the predator removal.”
> 
> In a patch of land in western South Carolina, USDA researcher John C. Kilgo monitored fawn predation from 2006 to 2008. His results showed that out of the 60 fawns observed, 44 died within eight weeks. Of those 44, 80 percent were either confirmed killed or likely killed by coyotes.
> 
> In Georgia, University of Georgia researchers Brett Howze and Robert Warren chose a 29,000-acre swath with a low fawn-to-doe ratio. They removed coyotes from one large study block and kept another block of similar habitat as a control. Fall camera data showed that fawn-to-doe ratios were more than 10 times larger in the area where coyotes were removed than in the control area.
> 
> Said University of Georgia biologist Karl Miller in the June issue of Field & Stream: "Coyote predation is the big issue right now. It's something we must take more seriously in whitetail management going forward."



As a student at GSU and just getting done biology, i have to point out a flaw in the first and last experiments on this post. When doing an experiment like this, you need to have two areas that have the exact number of coyotes before they take out those from one area. They can take as many coyotes out of one area as they want to but whats not to say that there are that many more coyotes on the other piece of land? You almost have to have an area that you can control all aspects of the experiment such as knowing that there is an x number of coyotes in this area and x number in the other area. You have to be able to control all parts of the such as reproduction and all. I do agree with these studies in their conclusions but i like to use what I learn in real life


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## turky93

ABAChunter said:


> olcowman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Did your lease holder actually witness these coyotes take his calves? Hate to burst your bubble but yote predation on cattle is rare even in areas where they have co-existed for hundreds of years. 99% of the time the loss is due too poor management or domesticated dogs or both. I would guess that yotes and ufo's share equallyg in the 1% I left out. These are facts that are available on the web and events I have experienced in the last 40 or so years in cattle or livestock endeavors. (except for the ufo thing, i was just trying to fit in with ya'll i reckon?)
> 
> Maybe a goat or a lamb every once and a while, but you have absolutely NO proof for anything in your post other than "other people told me", "somebody seen" and then of coarse your "dnr conspiracy theory" . Very compelling reasons for me to throw away a lifetime of experience and all my common sense and pile in with ya'll..... don't you agree?
> 
> Just man up and admit the truth...you get your jollies killing things? Relax you aint the only one...it aint about the tradition or the hunt itself...its just pure "big gun + anything dead = big man. Lot's of folks are compelled this way and many also feel some need to publically express some sort of pathetic tenet or rationilization for this behaviour. When you resort to "somebody told me" or "this feller I know" well it just shows a lack of imagination in my opinion.
> 
> QUOTE]
> 
> theres your proof man.....you say it is 99 % poor management or dogs. Well dogs killed 1/3 of what coyotes did. COYOTES KILLED ALMOST 100,000 CALVES!!!!!! want more proof????????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What you didn't mention is that only 0.18% of the cattle were killed by predation. Coyotes only accounted for half of that 0.18%
> If the state of Georgia cannot afford to lose some fawns to natural predators, then we have some real issues. Natural predation has been a part of every ecosystem since the dawn of time.
> It all boils down to jealousy. Guys see that something else is killing "their" deer and they want to get all fussy because they think there won't be any left for them.
Click to expand...


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## schreck_1

KMAS626 said:


> As a student at GSU and just getting done biology, i have to point out a flaw in the first and last experiments on this post. When doing an experiment like this, you need to have two areas that have the exact number of coyotes before they take out those from one area. They can take as many coyotes out of one area as they want to but whats not to say that there are that many more coyotes on the other piece of land? You almost have to have an area that you can control all aspects of the experiment such as knowing that there is an x number of coyotes in this area and x number in the other area. You have to be able to control all parts of the such as reproduction and all. I do agree with these studies in their conclusions but i like to use what I learn in real life



You are right if this was a perfectly designed study following exact experimental design theories.

But it is not.  It is field research where proper experimental design is strived for but rarely achieved.  The best you could hope for in this case is to use a cross over study where your experimental block was converted to your control and vice versa.  The other way to get around it is to have multiple controls and multiple experimentals so you have more to look at.  I know the researchers that did all of the cited studies and can assure you that the designs were as good as they could possibly be.  They all have their short comings and strengths.


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## scoggins

chase870 said:


> enviromentaly friendly fertalizer, all organic and no chemicals



slight LEAD content


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## shakey gizzard

meatseeker said:


> Who need statistics, 15 years ago you hardly ever saw a coyote in the mountains. The last 8 or 10 years they have showed up everywhere. The flocks of turkey are half what they were, the quail are gone,less grouse, less deer, less foxes, less stray cats, and rabbits are thin to.And the ground hogs used to be thick too. Thats probably why theres no limit or season on yotes, cause we will never kill em all. I won't kill all the coyotes, just the ones I see.
> What will I do with them....well the worms and buzzards gotta eat to. Thats why i'd never mount one, cause I'd wanna set in the yard and shoot it over and over and over.


Dont forget to lime well!


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## Throwback

turky93 said:


> ABAChunter said:
> 
> 
> 
> What you didn't mention is that only 0.18% of the cattle were killed by predation. Coyotes only accounted for half of that 0.18%If the state of Georgia cannot afford to lose some fawns to natural predators, then we have some real issues. Natural predation has been a part of every ecosystem since the dawn of time.
> It all boils down to jealousy. Guys see that something else is killing "their" deer and they want to get all fussy because they think there won't be any left for them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I told him that once. and I think cowman told him too. Let's see if #3 gets through to him.
> 
> 
> T
Click to expand...


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## Barry Duggan

Saw my first one in 82 in Twiggs Co., on the opening morning of deer season...got him back from the taxidermist about three months later...cause he never saw me.


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## Mattval

This topic stirred up a lo of debate.  City people are "different" I was telling them that our dog was jumping up on my two year old little girls. the claws scratched them and made them cry. I taught my little ones to kick the dog if it jumped up on them. You would have thought I was dumping Oil into the gulf or something! These city people could not believe I taught my kids to kick the dog!......thats how liberals think...forget  the kids save the animals!


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## Bkeepr

A very interesting thread!   Over at my Dad's in Randolph county Alabama a wildlife biologist told us that we were not getting any fawns growing into adult does.  There are a ton of coyotes there.  But there are also tons of the biting midges that carry that black tongue virus and we are getting over a confirmed outbreak of it from a couple of years ago.  And there are lots of poachers, especially with these hard times, and wild dogs too.  And Alabama allows you to shoot even more does than Georgia.
I wonder if when the deer population stays low for a few years, the coyote population will crash too, or if the yotes will just eat everything else.  Remember too, coyotes don't get to eat Heartgard or anything for heartworms!  Unless they eat a medicated chihuahua!


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## Georgia Hard Hunter

The anserwer to the question in post #1 is "THE BUZZARDS GOTTA EAT TOO!!!"


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## tullisfireball

olcowman said:


> , but you have absolutely NO proof for anything in your post other than "other people told me", "somebody seen" and then of coarse your "dnr conspiracy theory" .



Isn't internet studies the same as "other people told me"? I mean after all if you read the read enough web sites you might even find ONE that says Obama is a good President, Just because you read it on the net doesn't make it true.


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## olcowman

tullisfireball said:


> Isn't internet studies the same as "other people told me"? I mean after all if you read the read enough web sites you might even find ONE that says Obama is a good President, Just because you read it on the net doesn't make it true.



It is a lot harder than one would think to find anything stating "Obama is a good president"..... danged if he didn't fall down a couple of notches in a hurry.


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## CCP

I read the start of this thread and didn’t follow up on where it turned to until now.

It was very entertaining and sad at the same time reading this thread. The thread title “Coyotes for the uninformed” would possibly have someone believe it is just about people that don’t hunt coyotes. Unfortunately a vast majority of coyote hunters are uninformed. Throwback and Olcowman seem to be well informed and a welcomed breath of fresh air to all the nonsense one reads on the internet involving coyotes.

Kudos to you two guys laying it out there whether it is popular or absorbed by the uniformed. Reality sometimes is more confrontational than fiction.

My reality is I hunt coyotes for the knowledge gained of the species while hunting them and the enjoyment of out smarting them. I fully understand that hunting them with a gun is the least effective means of controlling their numbers but controlling their numbers is not my goal. 

I was once one of the I'm doing it to save the east from the dreaded coyote back in the early 80’s when people thought I was nuts chasing a dang coyote. Once I progressed from just wanting to pull the trigger on coyotes and came more involved in understanding them it became a whole new level. I was then  able to separate my opinion from fact and see reality.


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## Mattval

Yall are crazy


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## Mattval

CCP  Well said Sir!


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## NIGHT SHOOTER

yotes where first documented in GA in the early 70's.  They were only confirmed by road kills and trappers. My dad had a trapper bring one to his sporting goods store in 1972.  He had a picture of it on his brag board for the longest time and I have looked everywhere for this photo for over 2 years.  Whether they crossed the big river on rafts or ran across the bridge GA was going to have coyotes eventually.  We did not have Armadillos until about 8 years ago at least in my parts of GA.  Shootem or dont shootem.  That will leave more for me to call.  If you do killem, Drag em to Basspro Shop in Macon next Jan to the Great South Predator & Wild Boar Challenge and show off your fur.  You might even win the jackpot


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## rkwrichard

All this talk just make me want to start hunting coyotes.. Have 223 will travel..


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## DAKILLER

all i know about coyotes is they killed 3 of my small house dogs one of witch they came on my porch and got.i'll kill every one i see as far as dogs running deer we up here in the hills have always took out the dogs


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## rawdawg2034

The coyote, Canislatrans, was first identifide asa species in 1823, in Nebraska. The first bounty for their scalps was assigned two years later.At the turn of the century, the coyote was restricted to the planes and western states of north america and was common in the desert west. In 1908, wildlife Biologist Vernon Bailey wrote, Coyotes are the commonest,best known, and most widley distributed of the larger carnivorous animalsof the west."
As early as 1910, the coyote was noticed to be drifting into the northeastern states. Coyotes have lived in the eastern states since the early 1900s. The first release was in Barbour county Alabama in 1924.... Young foxes were to be released, but insted, young coyote pups were accidentally released" ( The Trapper & Predator Caller, 1985).
If you want to learn more call Dr. Major L. Boddicker, Ph.D. at www.crittercalls.com or 1 877-484-2768
Get the book ( Coyote Man ) By Ray Alcorn Who spent his life with the coyote.


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## Ohoopee Tusker

For the OP. Tell them you are embracing your natural predator instinct. If they question that, point out the fact that you have forward facing eyes just like all other predators.


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## Marlin_444

Hooked up with this one this past season...







He did the "triple spin dance" after a round of 300 Win Mag Federal Fusion 165 grain hit him after I noticed him sneaking in about 125 yards out...

Figure I saved a few fawns, turkeys and or rabbits with that shot...

See you in the woods...

Ron


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## Cutbait Robin

Born in Clinch County in '55, grew up the son of the local game warden, in the woods with him all the time. We never saw, heard, or saw sign of them in Clinch County until the early '70s. No talk about them... and Clinch is a big county, predomately dog hunters at the time, and there was NO mention of 'yotes then. They just weren't there.

Talk about 'yote sightings began around 1970. I saw my first in '72.

I don't hunt 'em, but will shoot 'em on sight.

Robin


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## gkdir

shakey gizzard said:


> They are an invasive species that needs to be irradicated!


Sure nuff!


----------

