# Opinions on bird dogs



## thomas gose (Dec 14, 2009)

What are some of yalls opinions on feild trial dogs vs none trial dogs when it comes to wild birds? Can a trial dog effectively point wild birds?


----------



## 28gage (Dec 14, 2009)

Absolutly,  though a field trial dog may run bigger than a meat/gun dog their ability to point birds is certainly ok.  Some maybe better.  If a gun dog has any advantage it would be experience on wild birds, but some trials are run on wild birds, and dogs that run in trials with released birds are for the most part hunted every year.

The advantage many trial dogs would have is that they are culled from many good dogs to find those with style, intensity, nose and drive.  Which with field experience should make them a better dog.   So, it as in many things, depends on the dog the trainer and the avalibility of wild birds.


----------



## maker4life (Dec 14, 2009)

That's one of the oldest most heated arguments surrounding bird dogs and opinions vary GREATLY .


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 14, 2009)

I agree 100% just asked cause here recently ive been hearing alot of talk on how a trial dog cant get it done on a wild covey and i was making sure that there were still some smart bird hunters left.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 14, 2009)

Oh boy..  I think this thread is going to end in a meat dog vs. trial dog championship at a local WMA during which a lot of  will happen and in the end maybe we will realize that we all have our way of doing it, our own expectations, and we can learn to respect each other.


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 14, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> Oh boy..  I think this thread is going to end in a meat dog vs. trial dog championship at a local WMA during which a lot of  will happen and in the end maybe we will realize that we all have our way of doing it and our own expectations and we can learn to respect each other.



that would be fine and im not affraid to bet per wild bird pointed on a "feild trial" dog! i really was looking for opinions other than my own.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 14, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> and in the end maybe we will realize that we all have our way of doing it, our own expectations, and we can learn to respect each other.



This is the point I'm trying to make.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 14, 2009)

28gage said:


> Absolutly,  though a field trial dog may run bigger than a meat/gun dog their ability to point birds is certainly ok.  Some maybe better.  If a gun dog has any advantage it would be experience on wild birds, but some trials are run on wild birds, and dogs that run in trials with released birds are for the most part hunted every year.
> 
> The advantage many trial dogs would have is that they are culled from many good dogs to find those with style, intensity, nose and drive.  Which with field experience should make them a better dog.   So, it as in many things, depends on the dog the trainer and the avalibility of wild birds.



nice post and good thread gose.  Bout time there was an interesting thread started up on here on something other than "where to find a good dove shoot".


----------



## 28gage (Dec 14, 2009)

One other point (pun intended) the days of big going horse back trial dogs is not gone but is smaller than it has ever been.  The economy, the cost of training entry fees, keeping a couple of good horses and travel have made the sport shrink in the last twenty years.

Now there are probably more guys competing in NSTRA and other one course events which cater to the gun dog.  Much closer to the meat/gun dog that most folks go to the field with.  So the difference between a gun dog and trial dog is becoming more blurred than before.  I ran in a NSTRA trial this past weekend and saw a several time national NSTRA champion and 22X champion (Stephens Bright Copper)  run.  Anyone would be proud to dump him out of their truck opening weekend.  Just saying....


----------



## maker4life (Dec 14, 2009)

I think a lot of the fine tuning is mostly for show and will inhibit a hunting dog .....flame away !


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 14, 2009)

28gage said:


> One other point (pun intended) the days of big going horse back trial dogs is not gone but is smaller than it has ever been.  The economy, the cost of training entry fees, keeping a couple of good horses and travel have made the sport shrink in the last twenty years.
> 
> Now there are probably more guys competing in NSTRA and other one course events which cater to the gun dog.  Much closer to the meat/gun dog that most folks go to the field with.  So the difference between a gun dog and trial dog is becoming more blurred than before.  I ran in a NSTRA trial this past weekend and saw a several time national NSTRA champion and 22X champion (Stephens Bright Copper)  run.  Anyone would be proud to dump him out of their truck opening weekend.  Just saying....




Very True!  heck, you even got to shoot your own birds so its not that far removed from the actual hunt!  

I heard that Copper was one heck of dog!!!   Ain't he out of Crows Little Joe???

 Where was trial held...he finish on top???


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 14, 2009)

the dog i was talking about is a big NSTRA winner.


----------



## 28gage (Dec 14, 2009)

Canebrake

The trial was in Fruitvale TX. and I think Copper finished in second just a couple of points behind the first place dog.  Yes he is out of little Joe and one heck of a dog..........but he's either 9 or 10 years old and still kicking tail.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 14, 2009)

yea, but NSTRA doesn't plant woodcock and we all know Trooper and Trip can't hunt that thick cover where the Timberdoodles lie...

I mean, after all they are setters...and pointers and setters just don't get in the thickets...unless they were raised with beagles that is!


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 14, 2009)

you have a good point there canebrake. Trooper does struggle with anything smaller than a turkey!


----------



## 28gage (Dec 14, 2009)

maker4life  

The best dog I ever hunted was sent to Canada with Robin Gates and I only wanted the experience the number of birds he could put he in would give her,  but she and her sister came back steady to wing and shot.  She had already been whoa broke and made to heel.

Bout as much trimings has you can put on a dog, and I'd have put her down with any dog............She's the dog in my avatar.  May she rest in peace........


----------



## Jim P (Dec 14, 2009)

In my opinion, it's like a amateur boxer and a pro boxer, the pro has more training. Then again the way bird hunting is getting, we train our meat dogs with flight conditioned birds and so does the field dog trainers (I think). And as 28gage said now the person that can't aford the up keep of also feeding a horse has NSTA, which is gaining in popularity. A friend of mine use to field trial, we also hunted with our dogs, and they hunted close because of the places we hunted. One thing could be said we both loved our dogs and I think that is what it's all about.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 14, 2009)

I will say this...after getting back from Kansas where it was wide open and where I thought my dog would have been at his best...I can see the value in a SLIGHTLY tighter working dog.  

The snow was thick and the birds were hunkered in tight...not alot of scent!  My big running pointer from trial stock didn't really start nailing birds until the last two days...I attribute this to him being slap worn out and hunting closer and more careful.  I cussed him for 3.5 days but he redeemed himself in the last evening hunt.  Maybe his nose isn't quite on par with his legs or maybe he is just still young and will figure it out as we go???


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 14, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> you have a good point there canebrake. Trooper does struggle with anything smaller than a turkey!



will that joker really point nesting turkeys???


----------



## Mucho (Dec 14, 2009)

he will point a robin if its on groud long enough


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 14, 2009)

what kind of pointer is that is your avatar? i see that NSTRA shirt, did you win that feild trial with a tri colored pointer?


----------



## crbrumbelow (Dec 14, 2009)

Canebrake said:


> yea, but NSTRA doesn't plant woodcock and we all know Trooper and Trip can't hunt that thick cover where the Timberdoodles lie...
> 
> I mean, after all they are setters...and pointers and setters just don't get in the thickets...unless they were raised with beagles that is!



Oh me..someone forgot to tell mine that thick stuff is off limits.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 14, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> what kind of pointer is that is your avatar? i see that NSTRA shirt, did you win that feild trial with a tri colored pointer?



lol...thats his bird-walker/meat dog!


We went chukar hunting with him one time in west Ga. and that mutt was busting all those birds...but at least he retrieves!!!


----------



## maker4life (Dec 14, 2009)

If all I'm doing is seeing how fast my dog can run in a straight line I'll get a greyhound .


----------



## 28gage (Dec 14, 2009)

???????


----------



## maker4life (Dec 14, 2009)

Man I'm just stirring a little . Hate to see a thread with everybody just shaking their heads yeah at each other .


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 14, 2009)

All I really know about is NSTRA (I don't know much) and I think a good NSTRA dog would make a good gun dog.  However, just like everything else you are going to have exceptions.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> what kind of pointer is that is your avatar? i see that NSTRA shirt, did you win that feild trial with a tri colored pointer?



thats one of them honky tonk pointers and like the most of them he want retreive either


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

i know of a fella on here who can train him!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

I dont think field trial dogs should even be allowed to wild bird hunt.  Field trial dogs are just for show and they dont have the hunt in them to find them savey wild birds


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

yeah i have a friend that has some champion bird dogs and coon dogs and he has been to affraid to hunt any of them outside of a compatition here lately.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

hes probably tired of having to go by his self all the time from what i here his partner never wants to go anymore and is scared to go bird hunting


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

Mucho said:


> hes probably tired of having to go by his self all the time from what i here his partner never wants to go anymore and is scared to go bird hunting



I dont know the real reason. he and another huntin buddy of his are both about to propose to their girlfriends and i think they have already handed over their packages! this is what his huntin buddy told me down there on that public land. He was alone with one of his dogs and one of his buddies dogs it looked alot like the one your holdin in your avatar. Im just sayin! then he said he got back and the boy had a brittany pup in his kennal but it still had its whole tail!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

you dont have to take it out on your buddies bcs youve had to take on a full time babysitting role and cant hunt as much as u want


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

Now you just crossed the line with that one Bucky!! Ill see you in the parking lot!!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)




----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

on a more serious note you gonna be able to go wild bird hunting with us saturday


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

Mucho said:


> on a more serious note you gonna be able to go wild bird hunting with us saturday



what time are yall going got a christmas party and a ukc hunt sat night


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

were gonna leave 430 hunt half a day i got to be at a party at robs at 400. You hunting in that newborn hunt


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

Mucho said:


> were gonna leave 430 hunt half a day i got to be at a party at robs at 400. You hunting in that newborn hunt



i was thinkin about it. but if yall can be back up here at a decent time ill just hunt fri night and go with yall sat and just stay at the party instead of goin to newborn.


----------



## GSPoindexter (Dec 15, 2009)

Don't mean to hijack your thread. I've got a GSP that I've ran the basic events with NAVHDA NA and AKC Junior. Considering going on to Senior because of the praise I've received at trials.  Wouldn't a trial dog be just as good if not better than a non trial dog. Here are my reasons. He's steady to wing, shot and fall. removing the danger of being shot by some body other than yourself of course. He's trained and trialed on farm birds which give off a weaker scent, making his nose more tuned (I would think) You've more than likely spent more time on training him and have created a closer bond with him and know his body language better.


----------



## Jim P (Dec 15, 2009)

You have good points--GS


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 15, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> i was thinkin about it. but if yall can be back up here at a decent time ill just hunt fri night and go with yall sat and just stay at the party instead of goin to newborn.



You gotta go Gose!  Since my dog wont retrieve i'm going to need you to run out there and scoop those quails up with your mouth and hurry back and drop it in my sack without mouthing it up too bad...which reminds me, leave your retainer at home!  

If you do good I'll be sure to pet you up real good and have Mucho express your anal glands when we get home...


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

Canebrake said:


> You gotta go Gose!  Since my dog wont retrieve i'm going to need you to run out there and scoop those quails up with your mouth and hurry back and drop it in my sack without mouthing it up too bad...which reminds me, leave your retainer at home!
> 
> If you do good I'll be sure to pet you up real good and have Mucho express your anal glands when we get home...



Ive seen you shoot! Ill be bringin birds back to Mucho all day!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

canebrake I was beginning to wonder if you were scared to get back on the form


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

Mucho said:


> canebrake I was beginning to wonder if you were scared to get back on the form



Punked out and runnin!


----------



## flybum84 (Dec 15, 2009)

Farm bird aren't as wiley as wild birds. How well can they can run down a moving bird and not bump it? The few trial dogs I've seen couldn't very well at all. they wanted to stay locked up when they got a nosefull of sent while the birds were running and flushing out of range. the one dog that did get put in trials that was an all around a good dog was a meat dog before he got put into the game of trialing. wild birds will do things that leave us as hunters both stumped and amazed no matter how hard you try farm birds will never come close. It's not the birds fault it's just that a wild bird is prey 24/7 so to stay alive they need a good bag of tricks. I'm by no means an expert. I've never been to a trial nor had any close buddies that did. but the few times I've hunted with dogs and their owners who did couldn't give all their stylishness away for a good point on  a late season wild bird.
GS-WADR If a dog needs to be steady to wing, shot and fall to be safe from getting shot you need new hunting buddies! you can always come to benning and hunt with me if you need to.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 15, 2009)

Yea, i had to drink me a 4 pack of MGD to get my courage back up...its cold-filtered

And as far as shooting goes...i hope Mucho can hit a bird with a smooth-bore better than he can handle a treed coon with a 22 magnum!

I dont think that laser pointer is going to work on those partridges...


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

If my memory serves me correctly I thought I was the only one with any game in the bag last trip.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 15, 2009)

Ahhhh...true, but if you hadnt brought me along with that pork tenderloin then you would have went hungry b/c i know that one bob wasnt going to fill you AND big Kenny up!


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

flybum84 said:


> Farm bird aren't as wiley as wild birds. How well can they can run down a moving bird and not bump it? The few trial dogs I've seen couldn't very well at all. they wanted to stay locked up when they got a nosefull of sent while the birds were running and flushing out of range. the one dog that did get put in trials that was an all around a good dog was a meat dog before he got put into the game of trialing. wild birds will do things that leave us as hunters both stumped and amazed no matter how hard you try farm birds will never come close. It's not the birds fault it's just that a wild bird is prey 24/7 so to stay alive they need a good bag of tricks. I'm by no means an expert. I've never been to a trial nor had any close buddies that did. but the few times I've hunted with dogs and their owners who did couldn't give all their stylishness away for a good point on  a late season wild bird.
> GS-WADR If a dog needs to be steady to wing, shot and fall to be safe from getting shot you need new hunting buddies! you can always come to benning and hunt with me if you need to.


 you havnt seen some of the trial dogs ive seen and if your dog is good enough you the birds will never leave where it smelled them at.



Mucho said:


> If my memory serves me correctly I thought I was the only one with any game in the bag last trip.



I heard a mixed version of that story!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 15, 2009)

That loin shore was good to I deffinetly appreciated it what you reacon we need to drum up for sat


----------



## flybum84 (Dec 15, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> you havnt seen some of the trial dogs ive seen and if your dog is good enough you the birds will never leave where it smelled them at.
> 
> 
> 
> true like I said I've had very little experience with trialing dogs. I think you need to go hunt wild birds out west and something beside bobs. two weeks into the season and most roosters are running out the back side of the field as you are walking in. if your dog can't get birdy on fresh sent in fields like that, your walking to slow. one of the tricks a dog must learn is working them fast enough without being to pushy. farm birds can't teach that. ask someone whos been out there if you don't believe me.


----------



## 28gage (Dec 15, 2009)

flybum84 

You really don't know much about good trial dogs.  A good dog or a good trial dog will hit his birds hard enough to freeze them.  But that does't always happen so if they move, it's called a relocation and a good trial dog wins trials by quickly relocating his birds with style.   As for a good trial dog not being able to handle ditch parrots you need to get out some and see a championship run on these birds.  A hard going trial dog can handle them just fine.   Bob Wehle  (Elhew pointers) made his name running his dogs in pheasant trials. 

For someone who's never been to a trial you sure make alot of assumptions, and I'm sure you know the problem with assuming.   Most if not all top notch trial dogs are used on wild birds too (at one time all the big trials were run on wild birds, and some still are).  A lot of top trial dogs go to trainers/handlers after showing drive, nose, style, and endurance in the field hunting wild quail as puppy and derby aged dogs.

You need to go to a NSTRA trail when the birds are walking all around the dog or scooting off in the brush.  Better yet there are some fine horse back trials in Georgia and the adjoining states that might open your eyes.

We all want a dog that can fill our game bag and be a trusted companion,  but it doesn't cost any more to feed a good one.  And not a penny more to feed a pretty one.   And that's why folks breed and run trial dogs.  

I don't trial anymore but my dogs are the result of breeding for the best from field trial stock.  And even if you bought a dog a friend raised in his backyard you could probably trace his line back to a field trial champion somewhere in his background.   Wow, maybe your hunting with a cousin of a big running, hard going, no account, run off trial dog.


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 15, 2009)

28gage said:


> flybum84
> 
> You really don't know much about good trial dogs.  A good dog or a good trial dog will hit his birds hard enough to freeze them.  But that does't always happen so if they move, it's called a relocation and a good trial dog wins trials by quickly relocating his birds with style.   As for a good trial dog not being able to handle ditch parrots you need to get out some and see a championship run on these birds.  A hard going trial dog can handle them just fine.   Bob Wehle  (Elhew pointers) made his name running his dogs in pheasant trials.
> 
> ...



this is probably the best statment i have read on this upland forum yet!!!! finally a dog handler with some sence has spoke his mind!!!!! Thankyou 28gage i beleive we see eye to eye!!!


----------



## flybum84 (Dec 16, 2009)

so tell me what separtates the two? because if your saying that only trial dogs get trained hard well and often on wild birds and farm chickens and come from the best breeding I think you making just as many if not more assumptions as I am. but if to be a trial dog all you have to do is trial that dog(which I would think would be the diffrence) I think you skimming the top instead of digging in and getting a little bit of everything. as far as your average "Meat Getter" well just how do you think they got that nickname?


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Well Fly,
 Dont know about others but my ole rough meat dogs got where they are from ALOT of just simply taking them to the woods and hunting them. Always for some crazy reason thought this was the way to train ANY hunting dog. Cant learn anything sitting in a fancy kennel, dog box, or house. And definitely not by sitting around at the coffee shop or drug store.  Would be interesting to see other responses though. Will definitely add that alot of trial dogs in any hunting breed are excellent dogs to just go out and hunt over. If people enjoy trialing and the social aspect of that, then so be it. Just most of us dont have the time or money resources to do it. All boils down to your goals, time, and what you want. You can't make generalizations  either way that one is better than the other. Just Hunt the dog. Alot of handlers use titles and trialing to promote their breed and bloodline. Nothing wrong with this if you are trying to improve a line of dogs or just want to raise a little money to support your hobby.


----------



## george hancox (Dec 16, 2009)

I think a dog can do both and we can be proud of that.ego's get in the way of what we do and enjoy.I like my meat dogs but i like seeing dogs being work for the improvement of the breed.We're not goat chaser's who fight among ourselfs just to fight.I like all of your post and your imuts so keep hunting and trialing.george


----------



## 28gage (Dec 16, 2009)

flybum84 said:


> so tell me what separtates the two? because if your saying that only trial dogs get trained hard well and often on wild birds and farm chickens and come from the best breeding I think you making just as many if not more assumptions as I am. but if to be a trial dog all you have to do is trial that dog(which I would think would be the diffrence) I think you skimming the top instead of digging in and getting a little bit of everything. as far as your average "Meat Getter" well just how do you think they got that nickname?



No, I'm saying most dogs have some trial dogs in their family tree.  And yes field trials require a dog be trained to a level that most bird hunters wouldn't require.  If my meat dog is steady on point, backs,  will handle and shows a good nose I'm a happy man.  If his tail is alittle hooked on point who cares if he's on point a lot.

But the standard for a big time trial dog requires he be steady to wing and shot.  That he stand like a statue when they fly, wheeling to mark flight is a no no.  That he point with a high head and tail, things that are desired in a trial dog but not necessary in the average meat dog,  but things that raise the level of the breed.  

Yes alot of this is superficial, a great gun dog that points with a level tail would not have a chance in big time trials unless he far exceeded the other dogs in coverage and number of finds.  Not because he is inferior, but because the standard is different.  But the fact that the standard is different is what raises the breed in the long run.  Gives you and I a more pleasing to the eye meat dog.  One with more fire, class and style.  Not a bad thing. 

 "I think you skimming the top instead of digging in and getting a little bit of everything. as far as your average "Meat Getter" well just how do you think they got that nickname?"

I'm going to need a translator here............


----------



## maker4life (Dec 16, 2009)

When I'm hunting I'm wanting my dogs to be marking and finding downed birds . The trialers won't admit it but that's something that a good dog that's not finished out will just flat do better .

Nothing wrong with watching a bird fall and running on to the next when all you're doing is playing games .


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 16, 2009)

maker4life said:


> When I'm hunting I'm wanting my dogs to be marking and finding downed birds . The trialers want admit it but that's something that a good dog that's not finished out will just flat do better .
> 
> Nothing wrong with watching a bird fall and running on to the next when all you're doing is playing games .



I think youre right about an unfinished dog marking birds better but I disagree that most trialers will not admit this.  Any seasoned field trial man who knows bird dogs would probably agree with you 100%!  And some dogs can probably turn their style (hunting/trialing) on and off...I don't personally know...anyone have opinions on this???

I'm finding myself somewhere in between...I don't necessarily have the time to trial but can appreciate a stylish dog with good hunting manners....and like 28 said...the trials only better the breed. 

 I agree with you that for a hunting dog I only want him steady to wing and not to shot (for marking purposes) but I don't see the problem in taking him to "steady to shot" while in your training years...can always let him slide back

Nice posts


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

I dont think you cant seperate and blame the dog in all reality the dog is only as broke as his handler makes him. I believe there is a difference between bird hunters and bird killers it all goes back to the handler/hunters ethics and respect for the game he or she is after.Alot of people that call themselves bird hunters have gotten away from birdhunting ethics by shooting birds off the ground out of trees etc. these are the same people that dont train there dogs and call them wild bird dogs. In there eyes its ok to jump shoot birds that there dog busted or shoot the running birds on the ground bcs there dog couldnt point them and thats bird killing not bird hunting. Its really no different than shooting deer at night, shooting a rabbit off its bed, or shooting a dove off the powerline. that is the difference in trial dogs and handlers vs meat hunters and meat dogs.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 16, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> you havnt seen some of the trial dogs ive seen and if your dog is good enough you the birds will never leave where it smelled them at.
> 
> 
> 
> I heard a mixed version of that story!



EXACTLY!

well..we never really confirmed who put the shot in that bird but I'll just mention that Mucho told me he had to use a skeet choke when he played DuckHunt as a kid so I'll let you draw your own conclusions...

and there was no denying who brought the pork tenderloin that day...I provided all the trimmings and the only thanks I got was from little T-Bone!!!


----------



## huntindawg (Dec 16, 2009)

Well, I'll throw my opinion out there, not that it differs from some of the others or makes a hill of beans. 

I was fortunate enough (if you want to call it that) to do quail research for a couple years down in the Red Hills region of south GA/north FL and have hunted/searched for wild birds over both dogs that were 'meat dogs' and 'trial dogs' and after hunting over both, I'll tell you that it doesn't make a difference, a good bird dog is a good bird dog is a good bird dog.  

Some plantations down there liked the trial type of dogs that were steady to wing and shot (or should I say the owners did) but most of the dog handlers will tell ya that they don't want dogs that are statues when they go on point, especially when it gets late in the season (which is often times when the best hunting is down there).  28gage, I don't want to completely disagree with you, but there is no 'hitting a wild covey hard enough to freeze them,' especially in February after that covey has been hunted and flushed several times and the forb cover has already started to diminish.   A dog that will creep on a covey to alert the hunters of their current location is a must and you won't find a trial dog that will do this as well as a meat dog, I don't care what you say.  I like a dog to be pretty on point as much as the next man, but paying to enter trials and seeing letters after a dogs name is as much of an indication that that dog will hunt and point wild birds as it is that a college professor will have some common sense.

Mucho, I totally agree with your last post.  A man shooting at birds that were busted and not pointed by his dog would receive a firm tongue lashing and to swat a covey on the ground or shoot birds out a tree would be cause to have him run out of the county down there and should be anywhere.    Same goes for any kind of hunting you're doing with a dog, why even have the dog if you're just out there to shoot something??  It's disgraceful to the game, much less the dog that you've supposedly worked so hard with to get to the point of trusting him to point/tree animals for you.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> I dont think you cant seperate and blame the dog in all reality the dog is only as broke as his handler makes him. I believe there is a difference between bird hunters and bird killers it all goes back to the handler/hunters ethics and respect for the game he or she is after.Alot of people that call themselves bird hunters have gotten away from birdhunting ethics by shooting birds off the ground out of trees etc. these are the same people that dont train there dogs and call them wild bird dogs. In there eyes its ok to jump shoot birds that there dog busted or shoot the running birds on the ground bcs there dog couldnt point them and thats bird killing not bird hunting. Its really no different than shooting deer at night, shooting a rabbit off its bed, or shooting a dove off the powerline. that is the difference in trial dogs and handlers vs meat hunters and meat dogs.



Thanks for  

So all meat hunters shoot birds on the ground, out of limbs, and jump shoot birds?  And anyone that doesn't run dogs in field trials is a meat hunter?


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 16, 2009)

huntindawg said:


> Well, I'll throw my opinion out there, not that it differs from some of the others or makes a hill of beans.
> 
> I was fortunate enough (if you want to call it that) to do quail research for a couple years down in the Red Hills region of south GA/north FL and have hunted/searched for wild birds over both dogs that were 'meat dogs' and 'trial dogs' and after hunting over both, I'll tell you that it doesn't make a difference, a good bird dog is a good bird dog is a good bird dog.
> 
> ...



DAWG-GONE boy...where'd you go to school?  I'd say that opinion is at least worth a hill of beans!  So do you think a dog can be steady to wing and shot one week and the next week work skittish wild birds if his handler so desires???

When are we going to Michigan next year to hunt those grouses?  I hear they are tough and want to get my 410 shooting up to par!


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

huntindawg said:


> Well, I'll throw my opinion out there, not that it differs from some of the others or makes a hill of beans.
> 
> I was fortunate enough (if you want to call it that) to do quail research for a couple years down in the Red Hills region of south GA/north FL and have hunted/searched for wild birds over both dogs that were 'meat dogs' and 'trial dogs' and after hunting over both, I'll tell you that it doesn't make a difference, a good bird dog is a good bird dog is a good bird dog.



Agreed.  A GOOD trial bird dog can go wild bird hunting, and a good meat dog could go trialing (after he is broke to that trial's standards which wont be hard if he is a good dog).  When it comes down to it some dogs have "it" more than others and will learn to be meat dogs or trial dogs faster and better than all the others.  For the ones of us that got one of those dogs, enjoy! For those whose dogs need weeks, months, and years of training well enjoy too cause anytime I'm spending with my dog is a good time.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Read closely the word " ALOT" was used not "ALL"  and if you read even closer if you dont fall in that category with the unethical hunter there is no difference between the capabilities of what the trial dog handler or the wid bird hunter can do


----------



## 28gage (Dec 16, 2009)

+1  a good dog is a good dog.............


----------



## huntindawg (Dec 16, 2009)

Canebrake said:


> So do you think a dog can be steady to wing and shot one week and the next week work skittish wild birds if his handler so desires???



I think it all depends on the dog and how easy they come by being steady on the wing and shoot part of it.  If you're out there with a leather strop beating them cause they turned their head too far when a bird flushed back over them or turning the juice up on the ol shocker cause they saw the bird moving through the cover and were creeping with them, I'd say it would be tough to have one that would do both effectively.  It'd take a real special dog, one that I never saw when I was down there.  

Now, if he came by it easy and was a statue on point, a man might be able to get him to understand the difference when he's not trialing and he's hunting wild birds.  I think a good dog can tell a difference (or figures it out quickly) anyway. 



Canebrake said:


> When are we going to Michigan next year to hunt those grouses?  I hear they are tough and want to get my 410 shooting up to par!




I'll talk with the guy I know that's got the place up there.  We should be able to work something out, I just need to work on having enough vacation days, what with this honeymoon and all.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Read closely the word " ALOT" was used not "ALL"  and if you read even closer if you dont fall in that category with the unethical hunter there is no difference between the capabilities of what the trial dog handler or the wid bird hunter can do



I would say A FEW so as not to disrespect MOST of the wild bird hunters which IMO are not unethical.


----------



## huntindawg (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Read closely the word " ALOT" was used not "ALL"  and if you read even closer if you dont fall in that category with the unethical hunter there is no difference between the capabilities of what the trial dog handler or the wid bird hunter can do



Mucho, I'm kinda confused by this post?  Are you trying to say that most people hunting wild birds will shoot them at any cost (flushed birds, ground swatting, out of trees, etc.)?  If so, I would have to respectfully disagree with that assessment.  I think it takes a real idiot to do any of the aforementioned things, and that person would certainly not be someone that I would consider a person who cares about and trusts their dogs.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

ive already heard that you were a very ethical bird hunter and I like the statement you made about anytime youre spending with your dog is a good time spent. I was not directing my thoughts to any body unless it applies


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

huntindawg said:


> Mucho, I'm kinda confused by this post?  Are you trying to say that most people hunting wild birds will shoot them at any cost (flushed birds, ground swatting, out of trees, etc.)?  If so, I would have to respectfully disagree with that assessment.  I think it takes a real idiot to do any of the aforementioned things, and that person would certainly not be someone that I would consider a person who cares about and trusts their dogs.



you would be suprised on how many people are out there that do it and call themselves birdhunting.I have wild bird hunted with alot of them and they end up mad at me bcs they think my dogs are to broke and are trial dogs


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 16, 2009)

I just get mad that your coon dogs are too broke!  Sometimes a fella might want to pop an ole possum out the tree!


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> ive already heard that you were a very ethical bird hunter and I like the statement you made about anytime youre spending with your dog is a good time spent. I was not directing my thoughts to any body unless it applies



I got a question about a dogs nose.  My dog in Kansas did a lot of creeping and not a lot of pointing.  I'm going to work her on pigeons and launchers for a while before I take her back out and if I do take her back out it will probably be to watch a bunch of birds fly off until she points one and I can shoot.  She probably doesnt have a world class nose but I think its definately good enough to be a good gun dog which is all I want.  This morning there was a cat in the yard.  It seemed like she picked that thing up from about 25 yards.  Same thing with a squirrel.  I guess squirrels and cats smell a lot stronger than quail (wild and pen raised)?


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

take your pigeons and launchers out to a light covered area but enough cover where she cant see the launcher. As soon as she acts like she smells it by reading body language flop the launcher that point of where she acted like she smelled it is how good her nose is. Do not allow her to chase bcs that is fun for a young dog and she doesnt need any reward until she starts pointing.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> take your pigeons and launchers out to a light covered area but enough cover where she cant see the launcher. As soon as she acts like she smells it by reading body language flop the launcher that point of where she acted like she smelled it is how good her nose is. Do not allow her to chase bcs that is fun for a young dog and she doesnt need any reward until she starts pointing.



Sounds good thanks for the advice.  Gota go trap some pigeons now...


----------



## ronnem (Dec 16, 2009)

*Had to*

I had to get in on this.  Tom Gose starts a thread looking for opinions, when he already had his and was just looking for people to argue with.  Trial dog vs meat dog.  No comparision.  Bring every multi champ field trial dog you got up here to Michigan and run them on all wild grouse and woodcock.  See we up here already know the results.  I will put my lab up against any and I mean any field trial dog, especially english pointers on grouse and woodcock.  We can throw some money in if you like, but it is birds in the bag not how high or where the dogs tail is or even how many times the dog goes on a rock solid chipmunk point, it will be how many grouse and woodcock you put in the bag.  Now this Yankee is right in the middle of our late season grouse, which will run till Jan 1.  We can do it now or next year, now would obviously be a joke, everyone knows a english pointer is a warm weather dog.    And if the Lab thing scares anyone off, I can run english setters if they like, but I figured I would at least give the trial dog a chance.  Let me or Beagle Stacy know if someone is feeling froggy.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Hey Ron, 
Man have you ever put any boots on your dogs in All that snow you have up there? Just curious? I did not use any either out in Ks. Guess my ole meat dogs including the beagles must have had tough pads from all the briars they have been in. You got any fancy papers or field trial pedigrees on those setters or labs of yours? Man, did you not tell me about a guy up there that you hunted with one day that had a pointing goat or was that a shetland pony?


----------



## 28gage (Dec 16, 2009)

ronnem

Do you know how silly you sound.  Heck they have field trials on grouse up there, get one of those dogs and see if your lab puts it on them.  Or by your reasoning bring your lab down here to texas on wild quail and put any dog I have down and put a whooping on him.  For some reason you think apples and oranges are both vegetables.

If you want to compare grouse dogs to grouse dogs and quail dogs to quail dogs thats a whole other story.   Two different types of cover two different types of dogs.


----------



## huntindawg (Dec 16, 2009)

ronnem said:


> I had to get in on this.  Tom Gose starts a thread looking for opinions, when he already had his and was just looking for people to argue with.  Trial dog vs meat dog.  No comparision.  Bring every multi champ field trial dog you got up here to Michigan and run them on all wild grouse and woodcock.  See we up here already know the results.  I will put my lab up against any and I mean any field trial dog, especially english pointers on grouse and woodcock.  We can throw some money in if you like, but it is birds in the bag not how high or where the dogs tail is or even how many times the dog goes on a rock solid chipmunk point, it will be how many grouse and woodcock you put in the bag.  Now this Yankee is right in the middle of our late season grouse, which will run till Jan 1.  We can do it now or next year, now would obviously be a joke, everyone knows a english pointer is a warm weather dog.    And if the Lab thing scares anyone off, I can run english setters if they like, but I figured I would at least give the trial dog a chance.  Let me or Beagle Stacy know if someone is feeling froggy.



Um, are you being serious?  There's no way you are, right?


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Man, If it none other than my ole nemesis Canebrake and his two buddies on here stirring this pot early morning again. I thought when you finally called me the other night we had agreed to disagree and once again stay on each other's sides of the fence. But once again you and your two buds throw out disparaging comments like a river flowing. Imagine that? Your side of the fence must have got low again.

What others on here will also find interesting is the post that  I put up last night about Happy Holidays to our vets. I am sure you saw it but the first thing you three jumped back on was this thread and started flapping. Any branch of service between you three? Anyone, anyone? Not that you have to be a veteran. But at least one that made it to Ks. and who is not a citizen showed respect for our veterans sacrifices to be able to have free speech on here. I guess you three feel automatically entitled to this? 

And another member on here that is currently active duty, you try and belittle him. Can't even give him a darn thanks for serving his country and giving you freedoms. Now that is fine American etiquette there.  Who cares about trial dog vs meat dog. Brittany vs pointer or talking about a bird beagle. 

For the moderators and you three, out of respect for this site and good members on here, I let it go long ago. Who keeps dragging it up? I will let others form their own opinions about you. Once again Happy Holidays and God Bless our Troops. 

Now I think we can finally call this something interesting on here   besides talking about doves as Someone once said. Now this is a topic worthy of discussion. So funny how you guys jump on any post that has my name or Fly Bum but did not EVEN have the courtesty to thank our Veterans!! I am speechless but I guess really Nothing needs to be said. Sometimes actions say it all.


----------



## huntindawg (Dec 16, 2009)

Beagle Stace said:


> Man, If it none other than my ole nemesis Canebrake and his two buddies on here stirring this pot early morning again. I thought when you finally called me the other night we had agreed to disagree and once again stay on each other's sides of the fence. But once again you and your two buds throw out disparaging comments like a river flowing. Imagine that? Your side of the fence must have got low again.
> 
> What others on here will also find interesting is the post that  I put up last night about Happy Holidays to our vets. I am sure you saw it but the first thing you three jumped back on was this thread and started flapping. Any branch of service between you three? Anyone, anyone? Not that you have to be a veteran. But at least one that made it to Ks. and who is not a citizen showed respect for our veterans sacrifices to be able to have free speech on here. I guess you three feel automatically entitled to this?
> 
> ...



Dude, get over yourself..no one even said anything to you on this thread.  If you've taken offense to something from this thread (i.e. ground-swatting coveys, shooting birds off of limbs, etc.) other than some good-natured ribbing about the inherent differences in how trial dogs vs. non-trial dogs hunt, you might want to have a long sit down with yourself and think about how you're doing things.

To call someone out and say they have no respect for their dogs or birds is one thing.  To try to make an assumption that someone is not grateful for our Veterans, when their best friends and family are out fighting is something all together different.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter (Dec 16, 2009)

Being from Wisconsin and just hunting the upper midwest I can count the number of wild quail coveys I'd came across on one hand. I stick with grouse and pheasants both of which can be extremely hard on a pointing dog. Both of them run and both of them can be pretty jumpy grouse are almost always jumpy a dog can't push them or they will be up and gone. Its rare to have a grouse really hold where I hunt. I'd rather have a dog that points as many times as needed to pin that bird down. I  like a pointing dog that relocates on his own, yet will hold a bird that holds, I prefer to watch my dog work at least some of the time(tough in good grouse cover), and check back often if I have to call him during a hunt its rare. For these reasons I like a closer working dog, that points well but knows when to move forward slowly. For me and how I like to hunt a big running field trial dog would be nothing but a frustration. Plenty of people are using ft dogs on wild birds and they do well. I think it depends on how you hunt, what you hunt, where you hunt, and what you want out of the dog.


----------



## maker4life (Dec 16, 2009)

Beagle Stace said:


> Man, If it none other than my ole nemesis Canebrake and his two buddies on here stirring this pot early morning again. I thought when you finally called me the other night we had agreed to disagree and once again stay on each other's sides of the fence. But once again you and your two buds throw out disparaging comments like a river flowing. Imagine that? Your side of the fence must have got low again.
> 
> What others on here will also find interesting is the post that  I put up last night about Happy Holidays to our vets. I am sure you saw it but the first thing you three jumped back on was this thread and started flapping. Any branch of service between you three? Anyone, anyone? Not that you have to be a veteran. But at least one that made it to Ks. and who is not a citizen showed respect for our veterans sacrifices to be able to have free speech on here. I guess you three feel automatically entitled to this?
> 
> ...



Really ? You want to bring your service into your little fight with your hunting partners ? And then try and drag another memeber in it with you .


----------



## 28gage (Dec 16, 2009)

This tread is getting way to confusing to follow, I'm out.....


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Nope Read posts I have made careful Maker. This was supposedly ended with last phone call but instigator and two friends continued the saga. Dont really see why Goose and Mucho ever jumped on the wagon. Did not ever have any issues with them at all. From what I saw Mucho and heard that setter hunted great. Thanks for letting him take the dog. I am sure he appreciated it and that is with all honesty. And why Goose climbed on the stage coach who knows? Does he even have any dogs? Who cares anyway. I believe those guys came from another heading on this forum? Is this not correct and mysteriously showed up after this Ks. trip. Is this not correct Maker or anyone? Once again, oh once again! Don't have a beef with you maker from Grady Co. Let it be. Not dragging anyone in just showing disrespect on here way after this should be done. Can you not agree with this?


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

ronnem said:


> I had to get in on this.  Tom Gose starts a thread looking for opinions, when he already had his and was just looking for people to argue with.  Trial dog vs meat dog.  No comparision.  Bring every multi champ field trial dog you got up here to Michigan and run them on all wild grouse and woodcock.  See we up here already know the results.  I will put my lab up against any and I mean any field trial dog, especially english pointers on grouse and woodcock.  We can throw some money in if you like, but it is birds in the bag not how high or where the dogs tail is or even how many times the dog goes on a rock solid chipmunk point, it will be how many grouse and woodcock you put in the bag.  Now this Yankee is right in the middle of our late season grouse, which will run till Jan 1.  We can do it now or next year, now would obviously be a joke, everyone knows a english pointer is a warm weather dog.    And if the Lab thing scares anyone off, I can run english setters if they like, but I figured I would at least give the trial dog a chance.  Let me or Beagle Stacy know if someone is feeling froggy.



Prime example of bird killer not bird hunter just like I said this morning you guys will really be suprised on how many people like this guy are out there that call themselves bird hunters and that non pointing lab a bird dog.  I will take you on any bet there is for any amount but when we finish grouse hunting were going to my lease in West Texas or to montana to hunt sharptails.  Better yet since you have alab lets go duck hunting and Ill put my setter up against anything you got on blind retreives.And yes my setter is a 10x NSTRA champion and not afraid to hunt him against anything.


----------



## maker4life (Dec 16, 2009)

Beagle Stace said:


> Nope Read posts I have made careful Maker. This was supposedly ended with last phone call but instigator and two friends continued the saga. Dont really see why Goose and Mucho ever jumped on the wagon. Did not ever have any issues with them at all. From what I saw Mucho and heard that setter hunted great. Thanks for letting him take the dog. I am sure he appreciated it and that is with all honesty. And why Goose climbed on the stage coach who knows? Does he even have any dogs? Who cares anyway. I believe those guys came from another heading on this forum? Is this not correct and mysteriously showed up after this Ks. trip. Is this not correct Maker or anyone? Once again, oh once again! Don't have a beef with you maker from Grady Co. Let it be. Not dragging anyone in just showing disrespect on here way after this should be done. Can you not agree with this?



I agree that those dudes are trying their best to push your buttons . Textbook trolling .


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Beagle Stace said:


> Nope Read posts I have made careful Maker. This was supposedly ended with last phone call but instigator and two friends continued the saga. Dont really see why Goose and Mucho ever jumped on the wagon. Did not ever have any issues with them at all. From what I saw Mucho and heard that setter hunted great. Thanks for letting him take the dog. I am sure he appreciated it and that is with all honesty. And why Goose climbed on the stage coach who knows? Does he even have any dogs? Who cares anyway. I believe those guys came from another heading on this forum? Is this not correct and mysteriously showed up after this Ks. trip. Is this not correct Maker or anyone? Once again, oh once again! Don't have a beef with you maker from Grady Co. Let it be. Not dragging anyone in just showing disrespect on here way after this should be done. Can you not agree with this?



IM a birdhunter putting my opinion on a bird hunting forum its just my opinion didnt direct it to anybody like I said this morning if my opinion affended tou then it applies but if not then what are you worried about. I was told you could get on these threads with an opinion I didnt know I had to get permission from you.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Nope buttons are not pushed. I will hunt on my side of the fence my own way and they can do the same on their side to their liking. That is as easy as it gets and ends. Mucho, I am sure that you would not like it if the meat hunting Bluetick guys said your trial walker could not pleasure hunt with them just because they did not like his size or color.That is all we are talking about here. No problem with you dude. Like John Wayne said, Throw your guns in the Creek! Why don't we all just get along and get over this cowboys and Indians charade. I think we all know Myself and Cane are not going to exchange Christmas gifts but that is All any of this is about. Done and Over it!!!!


----------



## huntindawg (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Prime example of bird killer not bird hunter just like I said this morning you guys will really be suprised on how many people like this guy are out there that call themselves bird hunters and that non pointing lab a bird dog.  I will take you on any bet there is for any amount but when we finish grouse hunting were going to my lease in West Texas or to montana to hunt sharptails.  Better yet since you have alab lets go duck hunting and Ill put my setter up against anything you got on blind retreives.And yes my setter is a 10x NSTRA champion and not afraid to hunt him against anything.



That's why I asked if ron was joking up above? You can lump me in the bird killer category if we're talking about shooting ruffed grouse.  A man would go hungry if he was to wait and only shoot grouse that held on the ground for his dog up there in those alder thickets in the Upper Peninsula.  Plus, them jokers are just too darn tasty to be passing on.  They'd make a quail blush!!

Ain't no way you can compare pointing a grouse to pointing a covey of wild quail.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

I think the rules change with every bird a little bit but specifially with grouse and pheasant.  I think a good lab can make a great bird dog for pheasant or grouse just like any of the flushing breeds.  You can't call them pointing dogs but you also can't not call them bird dogs.  The good ones hunt just as hard and efficiently as a pointing dog if not more when it comes to pheasant and grouse.

Ideally, I would want my dog to point and hold on quail and other game that stays put, but that will track and relocate and maybe just get birdy on game that runs and flushes wild.  Will that ever happen, I have no idea.  But if I have to pick I want my dog to point and hold because she is a pointing breed and that is what I enjoy.  If that means I'll never be able to shoot pheasant or grouse over her because that keeps bringing her back to thinking she can creep in on anything, then I guess I will have to get a lab too.


----------



## Canebrake (Dec 16, 2009)

Beagle Stace said:


> Man, If it none other than my ole nemesis Canebrake and his two buddies on here stirring this pot early morning again. I thought when you finally called me the other night we had agreed to disagree and once again stay on each other's sides of the fence. But once again you and your two buds throw out disparaging comments like a river flowing. Imagine that? Your side of the fence must have got low again.
> 
> What others on here will also find interesting is the post that  I put up last night about Happy Holidays to our vets. I am sure you saw it but the first thing you three jumped back on was this thread and started flapping. Any branch of service between you three? Anyone, anyone? Not that you have to be a veteran. But at least one that made it to Ks. and who is not a citizen showed respect for our veterans sacrifices to be able to have free speech on here. I guess you three feel automatically entitled to this?
> 
> ...




This can't be a real post...

Don't question my patriotism just because I don't chime in on an internet Happy Holidays greeting.  I...like many...have friends and family on the front line right now and pray for them everyday because I am grateful for their sacrifice.  Nice try on the sympathy points though..

NO ONE on this thread mentioned your name and for once I thought we had a lighhearted, interesting conversation going about a topic that all of us have surely pondered from time to time.  No matter the originals poster stance...maybe he wanted to hear some differing opinions...maybe not, but what does that have to do with me.  And if anyone is wondering, yes I ran boots on my dogs when I hunted in a blizzard.  Don't know if they needed it or not....I don't hunt too much being from Ga. and all...I reckon that made them (and I) look silly???

I called you directly as requested and told you to keep my name out of your mouth...I don't know how else to phrase it for you.

oh yea...quit typing like Yoda..its weirding me out!


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

ronnem said:


> I had to get in on this.  Tom Gose starts a thread looking for opinions, when he already had his and was just looking for people to argue with.  Trial dog vs meat dog.  No comparision.  Bring every multi champ field trial dog you got up here to Michigan and run them on all wild grouse and woodcock.  See we up here already know the results.  I will put my lab up against any and I mean any field trial dog, especially english pointers on grouse and woodcock.  We can throw some money in if you like, but it is birds in the bag not how high or where the dogs tail is or even how many times the dog goes on a rock solid chipmunk point, it will be how many grouse and woodcock you put in the bag.  Now this Yankee is right in the middle of our late season grouse, which will run till Jan 1.  We can do it now or next year, now would obviously be a joke, everyone knows a english pointer is a warm weather dog.    And if the Lab thing scares anyone off, I can run english setters if they like, but I figured I would at least give the trial dog a chance.  Let me or Beagle Stacy know if someone is feeling froggy.





Beagle Stace said:


> Man, If it none other than my ole nemesis Canebrake and his two buddies on here stirring this pot early morning again. I thought when you finally called me the other night we had agreed to disagree and once again stay on each other's sides of the fence. But once again you and your two buds throw out disparaging comments like a river flowing. Imagine that? Your side of the fence must have got low again.
> 
> What others on here will also find interesting is the post that  I put up last night about Happy Holidays to our vets. I am sure you saw it but the first thing you three jumped back on was this thread and started flapping. Any branch of service between you three? Anyone, anyone? Not that you have to be a veteran. But at least one that made it to Ks. and who is not a citizen showed respect for our veterans sacrifices to be able to have free speech on here. I guess you three feel automatically entitled to this?
> 
> ...


ronnem I started this thread just to see how many of you slaughter house hunters would come out of the wood works because here lately ive been hearing alot about these"meat dogs" and not so much about bird dogs and i will gladly come up to michigan and watch you lose money with your lab.
Beagle stace to you, i do thank my military daily for what they do and have a brother in Iraq serving right now and never in my life have i ever met a veteran bost about thereself as you do but just the same thankyou and all the other vets on here for what has been givin. with that said John Wayne would smash you!!!


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Post your dog pics.Gose and ur face so we can put a face with ur name. Read the post again never boasted of my service and Thanks to ur Bro for his sacrifices. Are u going to bring ur dogs along to Mi.? If you have any?  Something stange about you on here. Not that I worry in the least we would shell out any money due to a loss but I sure bet it won't be a dog that you own.


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Beagle Stace said:


> Post your dog pics.Gose and ur face so we can put a face with ur name. Read the post again never boasted of my service and Thanks to ur Bro for his sacrifices. Are u going to bring ur dogs along to Mi.? If you have any?  Something stange about you on here. Not that I worry in the least we would shell out any money due to a loss but I sure bet it won't be a dog that you own.



there is nothing strange about me i have hunting dogs but no bird dogs right now, i have always bird hunted and have always done it behind some of the best dogs in the country and with true BIRD HUNTERS and to here some of the folks on here all i need to be a bird hunter is to turn my lab loose and run behind her until she blows up a covey or another game bird and start shooting in that direction. but im just a dog handler what do i know.


----------



## brookzee (Dec 16, 2009)

i field trial and hunt with the same dogs.i have hunted mine out west, shot a limit of prarie grouse over her with retrieves then ran her in a huge shootingdog stake the next day on wild birds and placed.then a month later when the phez season opens watch her handle and pen pheasant, and she can go all day.i have had her in georgia on a pen raised quail hunt and won trials within days after the hunt.been to south georgia hunting the nastiest clearcuts for wild bobs and shot the heck out them.i understand and agree with some of whats said.the deal is that some trial guys have no interest in going wild bird hunting. they just hunt ribbons.there "trial dogs" do well in that game but i would agree most would come undone in atrue hunting situation.there is another group of field trialers that do hunt and most that i know make it imperative that their dogs have loads of experience on wild birds and are absolutely awesome wild bird dogs.i would not own one if i couldn't have it both ways.i have plenty of buddies with great meat dogs that dont field trial and i love shooting birds over them all the same. as far as nstra goes i think it is great when any man gets out with his dog and enjoys them, no matter what the venue.but how many wild birds have you found out in the middle of a 40 acre field,it doesnt happen.(im talking about wild quail ).
the nstra boys would argue that they are the true show of a wild bird dog.i strongly disagree.ive played that game a couple times and its kind of fun.but a wild bird dog it does not make.wild bird dogs are made by having access nto truly wild birds and letting them learn to handle them.now if you ever run across a field trialer that talks of the importance of running and training on wild birds and you know he has done his fair share of winning at horseback trials.....guarantee he has brag dog put food on the table bird dogs and the average dog will spend the day backing.its the difference in a kid being a great small town high school linebacker that knows the game of football better than anyone, but soaking wet weighs 170 pounds.he has all the tools except the extreme athleticism.
the main thing is that people go out and have fun with their bird dogs.but these topics do make for great conversation.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Very interesting Thomas that you appear with a brace of coon dogs after talking about so much bird dog business. I had already figured that. But that is okay. You talk about all your bird shooting experience. It will deinitely be needed bud if you make the North Woods. Let me make some plans and I can promise u that we will be in touch again. You guys have truly brightened my Holidays and gave me so much to look forward to. All I can say is Happy Holidays and best of training to you. Don't we all love a challenge . I bet Ron will too.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

It want be a challenge as far as im concerned its gonna be a masacre. It want be my first trip to the north woods.I guess we need to come up with a figure lets say 100 bucks a bird


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Dec 16, 2009)

Alot of your top trial dogs see alot of wild birds, the spend most summers on the northern plains on sharp tails and pheasants.  The Ga. Fla. Field Trial Club runs their trials on wild birds on some of the best wild bird properties around.  There are so many trials out there it is impossible to make a generalized statement about "trial dogs" or meat dogs.  It all boils down to what a person likes, some folks like close working dogs and hunt on foot. I like it all, but you need a big running dog for some styles of hunting, I love horse back hunting and a trial dog is good for that. Your top field trialers in the country, two of which are neighbors of mine (Lee Co. residents Robin Gates and Rick Furney) train their dogs on wild birds as much, if not more, than pen raised birds.  They work on some of the finer wild bird plantations in the nation and have access to wild birds like most of us only dream of. I am not a field trialer nor have I ever had the desire to be one. I have attended trials and have seen some very fine dogs working in them.  Most of your older field trials still have working dogs in them, they started out with plantation owners wanting to show their dogs of to the other owners, with some serious betting taking place.  But lumping field trials all into one catagory is similar to lumping all automobile racing into one catagory....it just aint practical.  Most of your wild bird plantations want their dogs to be steady to wing and shot and NOT retrieve, it is tradition and that is how their dogs are trained, and they never run in trials with most of their dogs.


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

b stace can you not read i plainly wrote i have no pointers at this time but i do have a lab that can do everything i have been hearing about your Gerbal and she will retreive without the aid of a beagle as well. i have no worry that my shooting is up to par and once again you have shown that shooting is all you have on your mind! maybe you should get a beagle that will retreive  clay targets and change sports!


----------



## Beagle Stace (Dec 16, 2009)

Okay Thomas, glad to know that you have a lab as well as them coon dogs. Not attacking you. I may try and teach my beagle to retrieve clay targets . That is a great idea. Lets all just enjoy this Holiday season and hunt in any fashion that suits you. We will keep this to business now. I go North every Oct. and will again next yr. This is just like the Super Bowl every yr. The stage is set. and you are invited. Just sit back and relax.  No need now to talk about who has what or other nonsense. Would you not agree? Is a gerbal a fancy name for a brittany? I kind of like that. I believe that Gerbal of mine fetched up a bird Cane shot and brought it to my hand so yes, the gerbal retrieves also. Don't worry we will get all our birds fetched up by something with four legs.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

I know a pretty good gerbil*...he is in the NSTRA hall of fame , actually he is the best ever.  I like the fact that my gerbil retrieves too.


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> I know a pretty good gerbil*...he is in the NSTRA hall of fame , actually he is the best ever.  I like the fact that my gerbil retrieves too.



I have no beef with a brittany just not my style of bird dog. and your right the one you speak of is actually owned by a friend of mucho i have seen that dog in person and he is NO JOKE!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> I know a pretty good gerbil*...he is in the NSTRA hall of fame , actually he is the best ever.  I like the fact that my gerbil retrieves too.



I knew that gerbal real well hunted against him in compitition and with him wild bird hunting by far the smartest birddog of all time sad to see him past.His handler is one of my better birddog buddies.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> I have no beef with a brittany just not my style of bird dog. and your right the one you speak of is actually owned by a friend of mucho i have seen that dog in person and he is NO JOKE!



No the one I speak of is dead.  He was owned by Nolan Huffman.  I've never heard Brittany's called gerbils before.  It's funny I haven't been in this business long enough to not like a certain kind of bird dog.  I like them all.  I just went with the easiest to start with and with what my grandfather has in France  hoping to make him proud that I was restarting the family tradition.  I think my next dog will be a setter after this one is trained up.  I really like the gordon setters or a nice tri colored english setter.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> I knew that gerbal real well hunted against him in compitition and with him wild bird hunting by far the smartest birddog of all time sad to see him past.His handler is one of my better birddog buddies.



I'd love to have a dog out of his line one day.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

save your money hes got about 20 breedings frozen I do believe


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> No the one I speak of is dead.  He was owned by Nolan Huffman.  I've never heard Brittany's called gerbils before.  It's funny I haven't been in this business long enough to not like a certain kind of bird dog.  I like them all.  I just went with the easiest to start with and with what my grandfather has in France  hoping to make him proud that I was restarting the family tradition.  I think my next dog will be a setter after this one is trained up.  I really like the gordon setters or a nice tri colored english setter.



i knew who you were talking about. Them tri colored english setters aint worth killin stick with what you have!lol


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> save your money hes got about 20 breedings frozen I do believe



Yeah I saw that any of his other pups went for at least 600 on his website.  You think one will come out of that line as least as good as Buddy?


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> i knew who you were talking about.



Sorry I thought you were talking about one of the ones that's still alive running in NSTRA.


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> Sorry I thought you were talking about one of the ones that's still alive running in NSTRA.



No i watched him win a trial about 8 years ago in south Ga.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

That's cool.  What seperated that dog from the rest?


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> Yeah I saw that any of his other pups went for at least 600 on his website.  You think one will come out of that line as least as good as Buddy?



Doubt it he was once in a life time. The closest has been Brave but he got that tick desease and never was the same but still made 11x champ in a short career


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> That's cool.  What seperated that dog from the rest?



He just knew how to get it done! Mucho knows him well he can tell you what you want to hear about buddy.


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Why you got to bring back those memories gost


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Doubt it he was once in a life time. The closest has been Brave but he got that tick desease and never was the same but still made 11x champ in a short career



I will have to come check out a NSTRA trial sometime.  Are you running in any of the 2010 trials with Trip?


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Why you got to bring back those memories gost



the man just wants to know what kinda beating buddy was capable of throwin on a soul!!!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> I will have to come check out a NSTRA trial sometime.  Are you running in any of the 2010 trials with Trip?



I am entered in 2 ga and 2 alabama trials starting jan 9


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

thomas gose said:


> the man just wants to know what kinda beating buddy was capable of throwin on a soul!!!



Yea he murdered us that week but we had a good time with open bar after the trial or do you remember that part gost


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> I am entered in 2 ga and 2 alabama trials starting jan 9


  I sat on a plane yesterday next to a couple of guys headed to SD for a while.  I think one of them runs a trial in GA, Randy Schultz?


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Yea he murdered us that week but we had a good time with open bar after the trial or do you remember that part gost



NSTRA you run against/with a dog right?  Did you get matched up with him?


----------



## thomas gose (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> Yea he murdered us that week but we had a good time with open bar after the trial or do you remember that part gost



I remember it well! i was only laying in the feild that night so i could help you the next morning! i told you i was gonna spot were the bird man made his drops!


----------



## Mucho (Dec 16, 2009)

Nitram4891 said:


> NSTRA you run against/with a dog right?  Did you get matched up with him?



yea i know randy hes got a nice liver brittany named ace. Out of 168 i made it to final 8 then i drew Buddy, I went to the sidelines and he went on to win the trial 1st with buddy and second with brave


----------



## Nitram4891 (Dec 16, 2009)

Mucho said:


> yea i know randy hes got a nice liver brittany named ace. Out of 168 i made it to final 8 then i drew Buddy, I went to the sidelines and he went on to win the trial 1st with buddy and second with brave



I saw his dog at the airport.  He was a nice looking dog.  Those gerbils can find birds.


----------



## Jim P (Dec 16, 2009)

I have heard britts called hamsters, never gerbils.l


----------



## Jetjockey (Dec 19, 2009)

First off.  Saying that trial dogs can't hunt wild birds is an absolute joke.  Most "real" trial guys are in the Dakota's all summer running dogs every day on wild pheasants, sharptail, and prairie chickens.   They have to in order to compete...........  Second.  NSTRA is great, but it isn't AKC trials.  A NSTRA dog will never win an AKC All Age trial, yet an AKC dog can win a NSTRA trial....  NSTRA dogs aren't required to be broke, AKC dogs are.  The winningest trainer at Ames force fetch broke all his dogs.  I know a trainer who runs his broke AKC dog in NSTRA because the dog also retrieves very well.  If all you do is compete in NSTRA your dog will never have FC/AFC/NFC/ANFC is front of its name....   

Buddy was an amazing dog, I get to hunt over a couple of his daughters and sons all the time.  Buddy's pups will never be All Age Champions unless he was breed with an AA dog.  Don't get me wrong, Im not bashing Buddy, he just didn't run big enough to be an AA champion.  Gun dog maybe, but not AA.  His pups make very good NSTRA dogs, and very, good "meat" dogs.  Finally, for "meat hunters" it really doesn't matter what you get as long as they don't run big.  Meat guys don't usually train their dogs well enough for the dog to pin birds down several hundred yards away and hold them for 5-10 minutes.  Thats not to say many meat dogs couldn't be champions, they just aren't ever given the chance.

BTW..  Im 100% positive Randy is trying to breed Ace to one of Buddy's daughters.  The Dame being breed is a heck of a bird dog and the two of them should turn out some very, very good pups.  They might not turn out to be AA dogs, but if your a NSTRA guy and you like Brits, they should be some very good pups.


----------

