# From Darwin to Nietzsche to Hitler



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2014)

I found this book review thought provoking. Sounds like a good, informative book.

From Darwin to Nietzsche to Hitler

This is the first of a 2-part series on Darwin’s impact on philosophy and politics.

In today's piece, I investigate how Darwin influenced the existentialist philosopher Frederic Nietzsche, and how Darwin and Nietzsche together influenced the German dictator Adolph Hitler, whose crimes against humanity include World War II and the Holocaust.

Some experts prefer to link Darwin and Hitler directly - and that connection can certainly be made. However, I also want to discuss the role of Nietzsche – because it was Nietzsche (not Darwin) who built evolutionary theory into a moral philosophy – a philosophy that not only shaped Hitler, but also crystallized the thinking of many Europeans in the early 20th century.




“Darwin’s evolutionary theory had an uncomparable impact on European culture. After Darwin, the fact of evolution could no longer be denied, and the popular imagination, long prepared for such a theory, extended it to ever new fields.” – The Politics of Cultural Despair: A Study in the Rise of the German Ideology 

One of those fields was philosophy. Frederic Nietzsche, arguably the most famous and controversial philosopher of the past 150 years, used Darwinism as the foundation of his moral system.






“'The total nature of the world,’ Nietzsche wrote in Die frohliche Wissenschaft, ‘is. . . to all eternity chaos,’ and this thought, basic to his philosophy, arose directly from his interpretation of Darwin.” - From Nietzsche: The Man and His Philosophy
“The scientist Charles Darwin had awakened the philosopher Friedrich Nietzsche from his dogmatic slumber by the realization that, throughout organic history, no species is immutable (including humans). Pervasive change replaced eternal fixity.

"Going beyond Darwin, the great German thinker offered an interpretation of dynamic nature that considered both the philosophical implications and theological consequences of taking the factual theory of biological evolution seriously.

"Nietzsche was not previously oblivious to either geological time or the paleontological record. He accepted the most controversial ramification of Darwin’s theory: humankind had evolved from remote apelike ancestors, in a completely naturalistic way, through a process of chance and necessity (fortuitous random variations appearing in, and inevitable natural selection acting on, individuals within a changing environment).

"Even the mental faculties of human beings, including love and reason, were acquired during the course of evolutionary ascent from earlier primate forms.

"For Nietzsche, evolution is the correct explanation for organic history but it results in a disastrous picture of reality, since evolution (as he saw it) has far-reaching truths for both scientific cosmology and philosophical anthropology: God is no longer necessary to account for either the existence of this universe or the emergence of our human species from prehistoric animals. In fact, this philosopher held that Darwinian evolution led to a collapse of all traditional values, because both objective meaning and spiritual purpose had vanished from interpretations of reality (and consequently, there can be no fixed or certain morality).” -Darwin, Nietzche, and Evolution

Nietzsche believed that the “collapse of all values” caused by Darwinism was ominous for mankind…

In his book, On the Use and Abuse of History for Life, Nietzsche anguished over the consequences he foresaw:


"If the doctrines of sovereign Becoming, of the liquidity of all...species, of the lack of any cardinal distinction between man and animal -- doctrines which I consider true but deadly -- are foisted on people for another generation with the frenzied instruction which is now customary, then it should take no one by surprise if people destroy themselves in egotistical trifles and misery, ossifying themselves in their self-absorption, initially falling apart and ceasing to be a people. 

Then, in place of this condition, perhaps systems of individual egotism, alliances for the systematic larcenous exploitation of those non-members of the alliance and similar creations of utilitarian nastiness will step forward onto the future scene."

Nietzsche tried to stave off this condition by creating a new philosophic system. 

"Nietzsche knew that the previous philosophical systems from Plato and Aristotle to Kant and Hegel were inadequate to deal with the crisis of evolution. As a result, a totally new philosophy of the world was now required." -Darwin, Nietzche, and Evolution
“In the early 1880s, when he wrote Thus Spake Zarathustra, Nietzsche arrived at a conception of human life and possibility – and with it, of value and meaning – that he believed could overcome the Schopenhauerian pessimism and nihilism that he saw as outcomes of the collapse of traditional modes of religious and philosophical interpretation. He prophesied a period of nihilism in the aftermath of their decline and fall; but this prospect deeply distressed him. He was convinced of the untenability of the 'God hypothesis,' and indeed of all the religious and metaphysical interpretations of the world and ourselves; and yet he was well aware that the very possibility of the affirmation of life was at stake, and required more than the mere abandonment of all such “lies” and “fictions”. He took the basic challenge of philosophy now to be to reinterpret life and the world along more tenable lines that would also overcome nihilism.” - Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy

Nietzche’s “basic challenge” is quite similar to Brian’s challenge in The Mustard Seed. 

In Chapter 2 of The Mustard Seed, Brian describes his fear of having to choose between truth and happiness…he wishes to have both, but – given what he's been told about the world - it seems like a contradiction… thus, Brian would be sympathetic to Nietzsche’s dilemma…so would Heather Manning, for that matter…indeed, Heather – like Nietzche – wants to “reinterpret life” to “overcome nihilism.” Thus, she created of “Spiritual Rationalism.”

But Nietzche – unlike Heather Manning – was a prisoner of his Darwinian outlook.

"God is dead means that the idea of God can no longer provide values. With the sole source of values no longer capable of providing those values, there is a real danger of nihilism….

Nietzsche posited the Übermensch as a goal for humanity to set for itself in his 1883 book Thus Spoke Zarathustra…

Zarathustra presents the Übermensch as the creator of new values. In this way, it appears as a solution to the problem of the death of God and nihilism. Because the Übermensch acts to create new values within the moral vacuum of nihilism, there is nothing that this creative act would not justify. Alternatively, in the absence of this creation, there are no grounds upon which to criticize or justify any action, including the particular values created and the means by which they are promulgated.

Whereas Nietzsche diagnosed the Christian value system as a reaction against life and hence destructive in a sense, the new values which the Übermensch will be responsible for will be life-affirming and creative…

Zarathustra first announces the Übermensch as a goal humanity can set for itself. All human life would be given meaning by how it advanced a new generation of human beings. The aspiration of a woman would be to give birth to an Übermensch, for example; her relationships with men would be judged by this standard.

Some commentators associate the Übermensch with a program of eugenics. This is most pronounced when considered in the aspect of a goal that humanity sets for itself. -Wikipedia

In many ways, the Ubermensch sounds innocuous enough – even admirable – but a closer reading of Nietzsche's text – reveals a more disturbing aspect to his creation.
“The essential characteristic of a good and healthy aristocracy” argues Nietzsche, is that it “accepts with a good conscience the sacrifice of untold human beings who, for its sake, must be reduced and lowered to incomplete human beings, to slaves, to instruments.” The “fundamental faith” of the aristocracy, then, is that “society” exists for them, for their sake, so that all the lesser types who serve them in society exist “only as the foundation and scaffolding on which a choice type of being is able to raise itself to its higher task and to a higher state of being…”

A higher state of being, the übermensch, who cares nothing for those upon whom he steps to go up the evolutionary slope -- that is Nietzsche’s goal…

Nietzsche thought we were slipping back down the evolutionary slope to the “last man…and the only thing that could drive upwards, was a great conflict. Writing before World War I…he believed the “‘European problem’” could be solved by “the cultivation of a new caste that will rule Europe.”

To revive Europe, a great danger must present itself, thought Nietzsche, one that calls forth once again the desire to fight and conquer:

“I mean such an increase in the menace of Russia [for example] that Europe would have to resolve to become menacing, too, namely, to acquire one will by means of a new caste that would rule Europe, a long, terrible will of its own that would be able to cast its goals millennia hence -- so that the long-drawn-out comedy of its many splinter states as well as its dynastic and democratic splinter wills would come to an end. The time for petty politics is over: the very next century will bring the fight for the dominion of the earth -- the compulsion to large-scale politics.”

One cannot help but hear the marching boots of the Third Reich - Darwin, Nietzsche, and Hitler: Evolution of the Ubermensch


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2014)

Part II

Even though Hitler was the most evil man in history, we shouldnâ€™t dismiss his evil as something that was â€œinnateâ€� or â€œirrationalâ€� â€“ and therefore, impervious to our understanding. The fact is: Hitler was a man who took ideas seriously. Throughout his life, Hitler was informed and motivated by several powerful ideasâ€¦thus, it is incumbent upon us to examine those ideas with a critical pair of eyes.

However, before we begin, letâ€™s note a simple fact: Hitler was NOT a life-long racistâ€¦there is no record of Hitler revealing any kind of racism until he moved to Vienna - a place where he immersed himself in a swamp of â€œscientificâ€� and â€œgenocidalâ€� anti-Semitism. 

"Hitler said he first became an anti-Semite in Vienna, which had a large Jewish community, including Orthodox Jews who had fled the pogroms in Russiaâ€¦Vienna at that time was a hotbed of traditional religious prejudice and 19th century racism. Hitler may have been influenced by the writings of the ideologist and anti-Semite Lanz von Liebenfels and polemics from politicians such as Karl Lueger, founder of the Christian Social Party and Mayor of Vienna, the composer Richard Wagner, and Georg Ritter von Schönerer, leader of the pan-Germanic Away from Rome! movement." â€“ Wikipedia

This â€œnewâ€� brand of anti-Semitism was vastly different from traditional Christian anti-Semitism which criticized Jews for not accepting Jesus, and at least gave Jews the possibility of acceptance through conversionâ€¦What made this new brand of anti-Semetism different? And what motivated it? 

These pro-German and anti-Semitic works â€“ which greatly influenced Hitler and the National Socialist movement â€“ relied on 2 philosophers: Darwin and Nietzcheâ€¦from Darwin came the ideas that 1) God doesnâ€™t exist, and 2) relentless competition between species (known as â€œsurvival of the fittestâ€�) is the means of progressâ€¦from Nietzche came 2 additional ideas which were consistent with Darwinâ€™sâ€¦3) morality is a sham used by the weak to bring down the strong, and 4) the only true, legitimate, leaders in society are those with â€œthe will to powerâ€� and are â€œbeyond good and evil.â€�

For most scholars, the link between Hitler and Nietzsche is accepted (although mostly ignored). What is NOT accepted (and therefore, much more controversial) is the link between Hitler and Darwin. Not only is it controversial, it is also very relevant. After all, Darwin (unlike Nietzche) is universally taught in high schools, and Darwinism proclaims itself as the sole arbitrator of truth â€“ not just biological truth, but all Truth. This makes the link between Hitler and Darwin especially powerful and uncomfortable.

The Darwin-Hitler connection is no recent discovery. In her classic 1951 work The Origins of Totalitarianism, Hannah Arendt wrote: â€œUnderlying the Nazisâ€™ belief in race laws as the expression of the law of nature in man, is Darwinâ€™s idea of man as the product of a natural development which does not necessarily stop with the present species of human being.â€� 

The standard biographies of Hitler almost all point to the influence of Darwinism on their subject. In Hitler: A Study in Tyranny, Alan Bullock writes: â€œThe basis of Hitlerâ€™s political beliefs was a crude Darwinism.â€� What Hitler found objectionable about Christianity was its rejection of Darwinâ€™s theory: â€œIts teaching, he declared, was a rebellion against the natural law of selection by struggle and the survival of the fittest.â€� 

John Tolandâ€™s Adolf Hitler: The Definitive Biography says this of Hitlerâ€™s Second Book published in 1928: â€œAn essential of Hitlerâ€™s conclusions in this book was the conviction drawn from Darwin that might makes right.â€� 

In his biography, Hitler: 1889-1936: Hubris, Ian Kershaw explains that â€œcrude social-Darwinismâ€� gave Hitler â€œhis entire political â€˜world-view...â€™ 

The key elements in the ideology that produced Auschwitz are moral relativism aligned with a rejection of the sacredness of human life, a belief that violent competition in nature creates greater and lesser races, that the greater will inevitably exterminate the lesser, and finally that the lesser race most in need of extermination is the Jews. All but the last of these ideas may be found in Darwinâ€™s writingâ€¦

Like Hitler, Charles Darwin saw natural processes as setting moral standards. Itâ€™s all in The Descent of Man...In [that] book, he compared the evolution of people to the breeding of animals and drew a chilling conclusion regarding what he saw as the undesirable consequences of allowing the unfit to breed: 

â€œThe weak members of civilized societies propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. It is surprising how soon a want of care, or care wrongly directed, leads to the degeneration of a domestic race; but excepting in the case of man himself, hardly any one is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breedâ€¦â€� 

Most disturbing of all, in The Descent of Man, Darwin prophesied: â€œAt some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races...â€�

You only have to read Mein Kampf to see the indebtednessâ€¦Hitler gives a Darwinian-style analysis of how the struggle for existence mandates a defense of the Aryan race. 

[Hitler] invokes the â€œprinciples of Natureâ€™s rule,â€� â€œher whole work of higher breeding,â€� in which â€œstruggle is always a means for improving a speciesâ€™ health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher development.â€� He warns against racial decline from the mixing of blood â€” his own spin on Darwinism â€” arguing that the preservation of a â€œcreative raceâ€� is â€œbound up with the rigid law of necessity and the right of victory of the best and stronger in this world.â€� He calls for â€œa more noble evolution.â€� 

Other Nazi propaganda followed his lead. In a 1937 German propaganda film, Victims of the Past, the audience is shown a retarded person as the narrator intones, â€œIn the last few decades, mankind has sinned terribly against the law of natural selection. We havenâ€™t just maintained life unworthy of life, we have even allowed it to multiply.â€� - David Klinghoffer, Don't Doubt It 

The key chapter in Mein Kampf is Chapter XI, â€œNation and Race,â€� where Hitler discusses the imperative to defend the Aryan race from the Jewish menace.

His argument is couched from the start in transparently Darwinian terms. He writes:

"In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right of opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. And struggle is always a mean for improving a speciesâ€™ health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of higher development."

He praises â€œthe iron logic of Natureâ€� with its â€œright to victory of the best and stronger in this world.â€�
But what if the strong (Aryans) choose not to dominate and exterminate the weak (Jews)? This would be against Nature, whose â€œwhole work of higher breeding, over perhaps hundreds of thousands of years, might be ruined with one blow.â€� And so on and on.

As Discovery Institute fellow Dr. Richard Weikart explains in his outstanding book From Darwin to Hitler, Hitler absorbed his twisted Darwinian worldview from the poisonous popular Viennese press, which was full of the stuff. He calculated that an appeal to the Germans to make war on the Jews would be most likely to succeed if framed in scientific-sounding terms.

Hitler could have couched his argument here any way he wanted. He chose the language of Darwinism. Mein Kampf was hugely popular and influential, selling six million copies by 1940. In The War Against the Jews: 1933-1945, Lucy Dawidowicz seeks to explain what motivated the German people either to do their evil work in the racial struggle or to stand by and passively accept the results of the racial war. Her answer: 'They were mesmerized by [Hitler's] voice, and they responded to his message.'" - David Klinghoffer, Opening Up Mein Kampf





The bottom line: The road from Darwin to Nietzche to Hitler was a straight, logical lineâ€¦Darwinâ€™s ideas about the â€œtruthâ€� of nature led to Nietzscheâ€™s idea about the â€œtruthâ€� of morality led to Hitlerâ€™s idea about the â€œtruthâ€� of Aryan superiority and the justice of genocideâ€¦was all of this inevitable?...of course notâ€¦but it was very likely to happenâ€¦there is a strange, perverse logic from Darwin to Nietzche to Hitler canâ€™t be opossed on materialists groundâ€¦which makes the truth of materialism itself suspectâ€¦and the quest for an alternative to materialism urgent.

However, I need to add one point: Clearly, while Darwin is just as popular today as he was 100 years ago, Hitler and Nietzsche have become very UNpopular â€“ and not just among the general population, but among the Darwinists themselvesâ€¦how have the Darwinists managed to separate themselves so successfully from their dark past?...what are their new philosophic ideas that animate our culture?...and what are the long-term implications of those new ideas?...Iâ€™ll examine those questions in my next article, â€œFrom Rorty to Obama to Beyond.â€�

But in the meantime, take a look at how Darwinism inspired Communism â€“ that other materialist scourge of the 20th Centuryâ€¦

Lenin:


On his desk Lenin had a statue displayed in a â€œprominent position for all to see...its vivid presence dominated the room.â€� What kind of statue?

It was a â€œbronze statue of an ape gazing at an oversized human skull.â€� This symbolized the evolutionary core of Leninâ€™s atheism.

Stalin:


Following Lenin, Stalin ruled the Soviet Union with an iron fist for thirty years. From Landmarks in the Life of Stalin we read:

â€œAt a very early age, while still a pupil in the ecclesiastical school, Comrade Stalin developed a critical mind and revolutionary sentiments. He began to read Darwin and became an atheist.â€�

G. Gludjidze, a boyhood friend of Stalinâ€™s relates: â€œI began to speak of God. Joseph heard me out, and after a momentâ€™s silence said: â€˜You know, they are fooling us, there is no God....â€™â€�

Gludjidze reported: â€œI was astonished at these words. I had never heard anything like it before. How can you say such things, Soso?â€� he asked Stalin, who replied:

â€œI will lend you a book to read: it will show you that the world and all living things are quite different from what you imagine, and all this talk about God is sheer nonsense.â€�

â€œWhat book is that?â€� his friend inquired.

â€œDarwin. You must read it,â€™ Joseph impressed on me.â€�

Mao:


Being a Marxist and an atheist and a firm believer in evolutionism himself, Mao mandated that the reading material used in this early day â€œGreat Leap Forwardâ€� in literacy would be the writings of Charles Darwin and other materials supportive of the evolution paradigm.

In a collection of his 1958 speeches published by the Red Guard entitled "Long Live Mao Zedong Thought", Mao praised 26 men he considered to have demonstrated a fearless intellectual spirit in advancing human knowledge. The only three westerners he saw fit to name were Marx, Lenin and Darwin.

Marx:



Indeed, Karl Marx - the father of Communism - was a passionate Darwinist.

When Darwinâ€™s book came out in 1859, Marx read it and exulted: "Darwinâ€™s book is VERY important and serves me as a basis for the class struggle in history....Darwin suits my purpose."

Later, when Marx finished writing his three volume tome, Das Kapital, he dedicated his work to Darwin.

Despite what his supporters say, Marx was a hate-filled man who, from his college days throughout his life, was bent on inflicting as much grief and woe on the world as he possibly could. Check some of his own words and draw your own conclusion:

â€œI wish to avenge myself against the One who rules above.â€� (From a poem).

Another poem: â€œThe hellish vapors rise and fill the brain till I go mad and my heart is utterly changed. See this sword? The Prince of Darkness [Satan] sold it to me.â€�

From a drama Marx wrote and called â€œOulanemâ€� (an inversion and anagram for Emmanuel, a Biblical name for Jesus), is loaded with devilish stuff, including these lines:

â€œYou will sink down and I shall follow laughing, whispering in your ears, â€˜Descend, come with me friend.â€�

The Drama ends:

â€œIf there is something which devours, Iâ€™ll leap within it, though I bring the world to ruins - the world which bulks between me and the abyss, I will smash it to pieces with my enduring curses. Iâ€™ll throw my arms around its harsh reality. Embracing me, the world will dumbly pass away.â€�

Only eighteen years old when he penned those sweet uplifting thoughts, Marx found the destructive instrument he was looking for in Socialism and its most radical expression, Communism.

As the author of this compilation points outâ€¦

â€œ[Not] all evolutionists are potential mass murderers, of course. However, it does strongly suggest that a passionate belief that man is just another evolved animal is a conviction that is fully capable of creating a mind-set which cheapens life and excuses whatever behavior and policies individuals may pursue, no matter how hurtful and even deadly that behavior and those policies may be to millions of other people.â€�


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I found this book review thought provoking. Sounds like a good, informative book.
> 
> From Darwin to Nietzsche to Hitler
> 
> This is the first of a 2-part series on Darwin’s impact on philosophy and politics.




In a similar vein, this book is excellent:


http://www.amazon.com/Worshipping-State-Liberalism-Became-Religion/dp/1621570290


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> In a similar vein, this book is excellent:
> 
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Worshipping-State-Liberalism-Became-Religion/dp/1621570290



Need to get that one.  CPF have you read

http://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Us-Ev...C_1_15?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393513812&sr=1-15. ?

If not I cant recommend it enough.  It's the most prescient book I have read since the Bible.  Please consider it.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Need to get that one.  CPF have you read
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Deliver-Us-Ev...C_1_15?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1393513812&sr=1-15. ?
> 
> If not I cant recommend it enough.  It's the most prescient book I have read since the Bible.  Please consider it.



Have not read.  I'll put it on my Amazon wish list.


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## 660griz (Feb 27, 2014)

Seems the book may prove that there is no limit at what the human being can twist to serve their own purpose.

Hitler best sums up his belief of Aryan superiority and his stand against the Jews with his declaration in Mein Kampf:


"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> Seems the book may prove that there is no limit at what the human being can twist to serve their own purpose.
> 
> Hitler best sums up his belief of Aryan superiority and his stand against the Jews with his declaration in Mein Kampf:
> 
> ...



Actions speak louder than words.


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## 660griz (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Actions speak louder than words.



Based on...words. Right?


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Actions speak louder than words.



God had no problem killing Tens of MILLIONS. Tell us more about actions....


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Actions speak louder than words.



Notedly.


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## bullethead (Feb 27, 2014)

http://xcomplex.com/book-reviews/from-darwin-to-hitler-goes-nowhere/

“From Darwin to Hitler” Goes Nowhere

April 16, 2011 in Book Reviews	



Richard Weikart is a professor of history at California State University, Stanislaus. His book under review here, “From Darwin to Hitler: Evolutionary Ethics, Eugenics, and Racism in Germany” is available from Amazon, Barnes and Noble and other book sellers.

This book attempts, as its title states, to show that a belief in Charles Darwin’s theory of Natural Selection was the root cause of the Holocaust and the Nazi eugenics program of the mid-twentieth century. Professor Weikart spends a great deal of his book examining the work of German naturalist Ernst Haeckel and uses Haeckel as his primary link between the Nazi agenda and the work of Charles Darwin.

In the opening pages of this book, Professor Weikart thanks a subsidiary of the Discovery Institute for funding his research. What is ironic is that the Discovery Institute itself was funded with support from holocaust revisionist R. John Rushdoony‘s foundation. A better title for this book may have been: “From Denying the Holocaust to Exploiting Misconceptions about the Holocaust.”

Weikart’s foil throughout the book is primarily the work and influence of a German Lamarckian naturalist named Ernst Haeckel. Haeckel was a contemporary and rival of Charles Darwin. Darwin himself devoted much of his “Origin of Species” to debunking Lamarckism, which was then the prevailing view of evolution. Somehow Weikart misses this simple fact and the plain distinction between the two competing outlooks in his research.

I was also left amazed that a book which claims to be examining the influence of Darwinism on German science and culture in the early 20th Century overlooks every single German Darwinist of that time period. There is no mention of the most influential Darwinians such as Janensch, Rensch, Gross and Stromer. And, the most influential Darwinist since Darwin himself, Ernst Mayr, doesn’t get a mention either.

Perhaps the single most important Darwinist of the Twentieth Century was Ernst Mayr. Mayr lived from 1904 – 2005. His most important work (Systematics and the Origin of Species, From the Viewpoint of a Zoologist. Cambridge: Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-86250-3) was published in 1942 at the height of Nazi power. Yet Mayr was persecuted by the Nazis and was employed by a Jewish patron (the Rothchilds). Ernst Stromer suffered the loss of his entire collection of dinosaur fossils to confiscation by the Nazis and ultimately saw their destruction in an Allied bombing raid. Werner Janensch was removed from his position as curator of the Berlin Museum of Natural History because he consorted with and protected Jewish colleagues. Bernard Rensch (who formulated “Rensch’s Rule” for sexual dimorphism) lost both his sons to forced impressment in the Wehrmacht allegedly because he too had suspicious ties to “Jews.” Later he would also be forced into service despite advanced age and a crippling disability.

Did Weikart deliberately leave out these names because they were all persecuted by the Nazis for holding such a “foreign ideology” as Darwinism and for “consorting” with Jewish colleagues? Or perhaps, did Weikart’s holocaust denying funders cause him to ignore the important Jewish contributions to Darwinism on the Continent, like Baron von Rothschild’s own funding and financial support to Darwinian research?

Another troubling aspect of “From Darwin to Hitler” is that it ignores the centuries old ethnic rivalry that existed between the German peoples and their Eastern neighbors which included the bulk of European Jewry. Vejas Gabriel Liulevicius, the Lindsay Young Professor of History at the University of Tennessee, has published a book entitled “The German Myth of the East.” In it, Professor Liulevicius demonstrates the centuries old conception held by so many Germans of “the East” (Ostland) being a place of “dirt and chaos” while also paradoxically holding a fascination for them as a place for future German colonization and development. Liulevicius then shows how a group of influential German thinkers (Geopoliticians) would later translate this ethnic desire for expansion into modern terms which they deemed more compatible with their 19th and 20th century milieu. In other words, as Liulevicius demonstrates, the racism and the desire to remove and replace the ethnicities already present in the East predates the publication of “On the Origin Of Species” by many, many centuries. In fact, much of this can be traced directly back to Charlemagne’s wars to “Christianize” and “civilize” the Slavs and other ethnic minorities in Central and Eastern Europe.

All in all, “From Darwin to Hitler” is a disappointing read for anyone who is even the least bit familiar with the history and development of Darwinism or the history of Germany for that matter. Weikart repeatedly misses his mark and displays a level of ignorance that will consign this whole escapade to the same dusty shelves as the other failures of the Discovery Institute such as Ben Stein’s lamentable and grossly inaccurate film. Professor Weikart’s apparent obsession with the writings of the German naturalist Ernst Haeckel – an advocate of  Lamarckism – is perhaps the primary example of how far this work strays from Darwin and his theory of Natural Selection. Almost all of the book’s treatment of “biology” attempts to trace Haeckel’s views and his influence on German popular opinion. Yet, Haeckel was a rival to Darwin and promoted rival theories.  This surprising gloss on the part of Professor Weikart is actually quite stunning as you read his book.

Lessons to be learned: When you’re going to be using the Jewish Holocaust to bash another’s ideas, don’t take your funding from holocaust revisionists. This will only add to your trail of confusion.

Here is a video of Professor Weikart’s presentation following the publication of “From Darwin to Hitler.” Notice that in the opening he appears to distance himself from the title of the book. He then goes on in his presentation to affirm the premise summarized by the title. Such waffling is typical of someone who is unprepared to be held accountable for their published ideas. Can we challenge Professor Weikart on the issues raised by the title of his book? No. He has distanced himself from that title and asks that we not pin it upon him. Can we then reject the idea expressed by the title out of hand? No, because Professor Weikart is promoting those ideas and wants us to embrace them as well. The perfect waffle.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> Based on...words. Right?





bullethead said:


> God had no problem killing Tens of MILLIONS. Tell us more about actions....



This "Hitler was a Christian" idea that continually shows up here is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.  As much as you guys like to like to poke fun at talking snakes and talking donkeys, I assure that "Hitler was a Christian" is no less amusing to us.


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## 660griz (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> This "Hitler was a Christian" idea that continually shows up here is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.  As much as you guys like to like to poke fun at talking snakes and talking donkeys, I assure that "Hitler was a Christian" is no less amusing to us.



I don't believe I said anything about Hitler being a Christian. 
I posted. "Based on...words. Right?"
And, I posted Hitler's words. Didn't see anything about Christians

That being said, Hitler himself, characterized himself as being a Christian. 

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.

-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

Why does that amuse you?


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
> 
> -Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922




"If you like your health care plan, you can keep it." - President Barack Obama


 "I am not going to be the Alabama coach." - Nick Saban, 12/21/06


----------



## 660griz (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it." - President Barack Obama
> 
> 
> "I am not going to be the Alabama coach." - Nick Saban, 12/21/06



So liars and sinners can't be Christians? That would surely narrow it down. Hitler could be in heaven right now. "Forgive me for all those murders father." Just like Dahmer. 

Really not sure where you are going/trying to go with this. Hitler THOUGHT he was a Christian going by Christian values. You cannot deny the Christian - Judaism relationship that went on for 1000s of years.

The early history of the church was such that anti-Jewish themes were not only incorporated into the new theology of Christianity; it was an absolute necessity that ``anti-Judaism be core to the contouring of Christian theology, and it was. If this were the case, then this anti-Judaism would be impossible to root out. And it was. Even church leaders who were sympathetic to Jews and Judaism, and who battled racism, could not overcome the inertia of 2,000 years of theological anti-Judaism deeply inculcated in priesthood, practice and publications.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 27, 2014)

I think we(some) just want facts. 
Why did Hitler kill all the jews?
If there was clear evidence he twisted Darwinisn into it, then o.k. Is that a sign that Darwinism is evil. No, Hitler is evil. 
If there is clear evidence he did it base on Christian ideal, then o.k. Is that a sign Christianity is evil. No, Hitler is evil. 

The problem is when Hitler is used to attack Darwinism(like the original post) or Christianity, like was thought to be happening but, really it is not. Facts are facts.

All we have to go on is Hitler's words and actions. 

"The Catholic Church considered the Jews pestilent for fifteen hundred years, put them in ghettos, etc, because it recognized the Jews for what they were".... I recognize the representatives of this race as pestilent for the state and for the church and perhaps I am thereby doing Christianity a great service by pushing them out of schools and public functions."

-Adolf Hitler, 26 April 1933


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> So liars and sinners can't be Christians? That would surely narrow it down. Hitler could be in heaven right now. "Forgive me for all those murders father." Just like Dahmer.
> 
> Really not sure where you are going/trying to go with this. Hitler THOUGHT he was a Christian going by Christian values. You cannot deny the Christian - Judaism relationship that went on for 1000s of years.
> 
> The early history of the church was such that anti-Jewish themes were not only incorporated into the new theology of Christianity; it was an absolute necessity that ``anti-Judaism be core to the contouring of Christian theology, and it was. If this were the case, then this anti-Judaism would be impossible to root out. And it was. Even church leaders who were sympathetic to Jews and Judaism, and who battled racism, could not overcome the inertia of 2,000 years of theological anti-Judaism deeply inculcated in priesthood, practice and publications.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 27, 2014)

That is one sloth that is in heaven.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> This "Hitler was a Christian" idea that continually shows up here is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this forum.  As much as you guys like to like to poke fun at talking snakes and talking donkeys, I assure that "Hitler was a Christian" is no less amusing to us.



The fact that most "Christians" claim they are a Christian is the amusing part. Each and every one of you point the finger at the next while overlooking your own actions. 
Being a Christian is only about believing in Christ. If it had anything to do with the actions of individuals not a single one of you would qualify. Not One.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

The story of the person in power separating those out he didn't approve of and sending them off to a place of horror and torture so that he would then only be surrounded by those he did approve of has been around since long before Hitler.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> I don't believe I said anything about Hitler being a Christian.
> I posted. "Based on...words. Right?"
> And, I posted Hitler's words. Didn't see anything about Christians
> 
> ...



http://www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor-Martyr-Prophet-Spy/dp/1595552464

Read this and you would understand......maybe; or this for that matter.

http://www.amazon.com/King-James-Bi...ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1393534491&sr=1-4&keywords=KJV


----------



## Denton (Feb 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> The story of the person in power separating those out he didn't approve of and sending them off to a place of horror and torture so that he would then only be surrounded by those he did approve of has been around since long before Hitler.



Like Noah's flood? God only approved of Noah and his family and the animals.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> The story of the person in power being separated from those who didn't approve of him and sending themselves off to a place of horror and torture so that they would then only be surrounded by those who didn't  approve of Him has been around since long before Hitler.



Fixed it.  Now it's truthful, and you're welcome btw.  Only problem is now it doesn't contextually fit.  Imagine that.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

> Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
> The story of the person in power separating those out he didn't approve of and sending them off to a place of horror and torture so that he would then only be surrounded by those he did approve of has been around since long before Hitler.





Denton said:


> Like Noah's flood? God only approved of Noah and his family and the animals.


One could go much broader than that.


----------



## Denton (Feb 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Bonhoeffer-Pastor-Martyr-Prophet-Spy/dp/1595552464
> 
> Read this and you would understand......maybe; or this for that matter.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/King-James-Bi...ks&ie=UTF8&qid=1393534491&sr=1-4&keywords=KJV



The actions of another christian, as saintly as he may be, are only the actions of one man.  When you put them up against the actions of another man who also considered himself christian...then you get two men and their actions who both consider themselves christian.  To hold one up as more christian as another is to say something like the Braves are more of a baseball team than the Mets.  Both are baseball teams, and both men have expressed their belief in christ as their savior.  Sure, actions speak louder than words, but who are you to judge? 

Hitler was evil, he twisted religion, science, a longstanding cultural hatred, and a feeling of injustice formed from the Treaty of Versailles's results to create a basis for his actions which convinced enough people to aid him and even more people to go along with his policies.  Everyone was a victim of Hitler and to pin the fault on darwin, or god is simply an attempt to use his evil as a basis for your own goals. 

Are you that gullible? We have known that the rise of Nazi Germany was a complicated thing for a very long time.  To think that only evolution was the cause of the genocide is absurd and embarrassing that this guy got published.  Are we happy about eugenics?  Of course not, its a stain on science and a stain on humanity.  But it was only people using what sounded like science to further their own hateful goals.  Eugenics didn't work at the time (skull measurements and other actual experimental science didn't support it) and it for sure doesn't work now.  

SFD, you're smarter than this. We need better from you.  Please stop trying to usurp terrible things as the basis for your campaign against agnostics and athiests.  In the last month its been a child burning mother and now hitler.  It's not a secret that Hitler's Nazi Germany used any method possible to convince people to do its bidding.  Please think about what you are saying when you post this book review and say, "sounds like a good informative book".  That means you are supporting the books ideas and by inference blaming modern science for the genocide, as if Hitler was science's creation.  If you really wanted to discuss this book with us, just ask, "What are your thoughts on this author's idea that darwin and nietzsche influenced Hitler's genocide? I understand that Eugenics has its basis in evolution and I was wondering if there is a direct causation."

To which I'd say, no, Hitler's hatred of the Jews was first and he used Religion, Eugenics and philosophy to twist germans into doing his bidding.


----------



## Denton (Feb 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> One could go much broader than that.



gasp!!!!! like H-E-double hockey sticks???? Is god a coolaid-ocidal maniac?  Must drink this or go to heck.  

We are laughing but someone on this forum is going to say, yes, if you don't accept christ into your heart you will go to heck but god loves you and wishes you'd just do this simple thing or burn for all eternity.


----------



## Denton (Feb 27, 2014)

uh, why is he11 a dirty word on this forum?


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## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Denton said:


> gasp!!!!! like H-E-double hockey sticks???? Is god a coolaid-ocidal maniac?  Must drink this or go to heck.
> 
> We are laughing but someone on this forum is going to say, yes, if you don't accept christ into your heart you will go to heck but god loves you and wishes you'd just do this simple thing or burn for all eternity.





> gasp!!!!! like H-E-double hockey sticks???? Is god a coolaid-ocidal maniac?  Must drink this or go to heck.


Well my point of view is slightly different. I don't attribute these stories to "God". I attribute them to the men, inspired by men/themselves, who wrote them.


> We are laughing but someone on this forum is going to say, yes, if you don't accept christ into your heart you will go to heck but god loves you and wishes you'd just do this simple thing or burn for all eternity


SOMEONE is going to say it? I would assume every Christian is going to say it. Or if not say it they believe it.
Indoctrination is a powerful, powerful thing.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Fixed it.  Now it's truthful, and you're welcome btw.  Only problem is now it doesn't contextually fit.  Imagine that.



It is in no way truthful.

And nobody should be allowed to "fix" anything for anyone without the first person asking for their help in doing so. 

Unless of course you don't mind us "fixing" your posts???


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

bullethead said:


> It is in no way truthful.
> 
> And nobody should be allowed to "fix" anything for anyone without the first person asking for their help in doing so.
> 
> Unless of course you don't mind us "fixing" your posts???


He knows I have him on ignore and cant even see his posts when Im logged in. I had to log out just to see it was my post he "fixed".
It doesn't matter. For me the only value his posts have is I could always print them out should I run out of toilet paper.
We all know what he's about.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

Denton said:


> The actions of another christian, as saintly as he may be, are only the actions of one man.  When you put them up against the actions of another man who also considered himself Christian ...



If Hitler considered himself a table lamp, would that make it so?

If he considered himself the fifth Beatle, would that make it so?

If he considered himself:

1)  the 1937 Cy Young winner
2)  a Radio Shack employee named Maury
3)  the inventor of the hula hoop

... would that make it so?


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> If Hitler considered himself a table lamp, would that make it so?
> 
> If he considered himself the fifth Beatle, would that make it so?
> 
> ...



40,000 denominations he could have fit in somewhere


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## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> 40,000 denominations he could have fit in somewhere



Westboro Baptist wouldn't even have him (although they would appreciate his work in sending homosexuals to the gas chambers.)


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## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> If Hitler considered himself a table lamp, would that make it so?
> 
> If he considered himself the fifth Beatle, would that make it so?
> 
> ...





> My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior


According to the "what makes a person a Christian" threads, the above in red qualifies him as a Christian.
What he did doesn't make him a nonChristian. It makes him a Christian who did horrible things.
As for your other examples, as far as we know he didn't claim to be any of those things so they are just a deflection away from the above.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> According to the "what makes a person a Christian" threads, the above in red qualifies him as a Christian.



I could not care less.  The "what makes a person a Christian" threads are not the standard by which I will be judged.




WaltL1 said:


> As for your other examples, as far as we know he didn't claim to be any of those things so they are just a deflection away from the above.



My point is that merely claiming to be anything does not make it so.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> If Hitler considered himself a table lamp, would that make it so?
> 
> If he considered himself the fifth Beatle, would that make it so?
> 
> ...



He did not claim to be any of those things. It seems in his mind and according to his writings he was every bit as Christian as every other Christian thinks they are. He may very well have made himself right with Jesus in the last moments of that bunker. Everybody has got skeleton's. You might have to share yours with Adolf over brunch whether you like it or not.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less.  The "what makes a person a Christian" threads are not the standard by which I will be judged.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think maybe you are your using your own standard of "what Hitler did was so bad therefore he was not a Christian".
That goes against the whole repent and be forgiven thing that acknowledges Christians sin. Now admittedly you know more than I on the subject but I don't know of a
"Hit List" that's says 1 thru 10 is bad but you can still repent and remain a Christian but 11 thru 15 means you weren't actually a Christian. Can you give us a link to that?


> My point is that merely claiming to be anything does not make it so


And vice versa. You claiming he wasn't doesn't make it so. 
And I get no "satisfaction" from saying Hitler was a Christian. Atrocious things have done by persons of every religion and no religion.
I do find it odd though that you would say Hitler wasn't a Christian for what he did but God flooding the earth isn't even a speed bump. I guess maybe it all depends on who is doing the genocide as to whether it is right or wrong.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2014)

I could see where Hitler's belief in Darwin could be where he acquired his interest in genetics. He also believed in a supreme being if not the Christian God. 
Is the OP trying to show a relation between a belief in natural selection and mass murders for forming a super race? One could just as easily find mass killings contributed to "doing it for God."
This is like trying to relate looking at regular porn making someone look at child porn or smoking pot making someone do meth.
I follow the beliefs of Darwin and Natural Selection but I've never had a desire to form a super race. Some Christians on the other hand did feel superior to other races back in the Sixties.
Emperor Hirohito of Japan was very religious and didn't mind killing and committing war crimes. He also drunk hot tea. It might have been the tea that made him kill all of those people.
Benito Mussolini was an atheist most of his war years. It was probably his love of garlic that made him kill people.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Actions speak louder than words.



I believe that Hitler was part of the antichrist....he came to kill, steal and destroy anything that had to do with the God of Abraham.  God warned the Jews in the OT that His protective hand of the chosen would be taken from them and pretty much they were on their own. That's just more confirmation for me about the Bible being the Word.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I think maybe you are your using your own standard of "what Hitler did was so bad therefore he was not a Christian".



I think the Holocaust meets or exceeds everybody's standard.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less.  The "what makes a person a Christian" threads are not the standard by which I will be judged.



Business in the atheist section musta been slow....LOL.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I think the Holocaust meets or exceeds everybody's standard.


As does this if you apply the same standard -


> God flooding the earth



I am not arguing that Hitler wasn't a "special case". His actions show that he acted on his own twisted set of beliefs. He may have used God as his justification or evolution as his justification or whatever as his justification. 
None of them justify his actions.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I believe that Hitler was part of the antichrist....he came to kill, steal and destroy anything that had to do with the God of Abraham.  God warned the Jews in the OT that His protective hand of the chosen would be taken from them and pretty much they were on their own. That's just more confirmation for me about the Bible being the Word.



What about Emperor Hirohito being a part of the antichrist? Have you ever read about the Rape of Nanking and what happened in China? 
The International Military Tribunal for the Far East estimated that 20,000 women were raped, including infants and the elderly. A large portion of these rapes were systematized in a process where soldiers would search door-to-door for young girls, with many women taken captive and gang raped. The women were often killed immediately after being raped, often through explicit mutilation or by stabbing a bayonet, long stick of bamboo, or other objects. Young children were not exempt from these atrocities.
(this is cleaned up for this forum)


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## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I believe that Hitler was part of the antichrist....he came to kill, steal and destroy anything that had to do with the God of Abraham.  God warned the Jews in the OT that His protective hand of the chosen would be taken from them and pretty much they were on their own. That's just more confirmation for me about the Bible being the Word.


Hitler didn't persecute only Jews. Im sure that wont affect your confirmation though.
And my condolences to you and your family concerning your brother.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2014)

Tyrants like Joseph Stalin created by a belief in evolution:

http://www.creationtips.com/tyrants.html


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2014)

Which religion has the most famous and the largest number of tyrants?


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Tyrants like Joseph Stalin created by a belief in evolution:
> 
> http://www.creationtips.com/tyrants.html


Evolution doesn't creates tyrants any more than chocolate creates obese people.
Only the simple minded remove personal responsibility from the equation. From reading the info at your link, that's who it was created for.
Not your best post Art


----------



## Denton (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> If Hitler considered himself a table lamp, would that make it so?
> 
> If he considered himself the fifth Beatle, would that make it so?
> 
> ...



All bad examples. Christianity is a religion for which a person who wants to join only has to believe. No certificat of approval or secret handshake required. I could easily say that you are not a Christian but you would say "yes I am because I believe" 

You can hate the person all you want, even go to war against him, but you can't take away his own Christianity membership card. You can just call him a very bad Christian.


----------



## Denton (Feb 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Which religion has the most famous and the largest number of tyrants?



Off the top of my head...

Don't know of any Buddhist ones, bushido and Japanese exceptualism created a culture of tyrany over their conquered foes until 1946. There's Mao, Stalin, pol pot, and the Kims of Korea, the commie ones, Alexander the Great, some Mongolians maybe, the Aztecs in their later years over their subjugate neighbor tribes, maybe some Hindu kings in old India, not sure about any African kingdoms. Some roman emperors. The apaches were rough on their neighbors too. The rawandan genocide I don't think was faith based but not sure how many of them are hristian. Liberian civil wars created tyrants. Sierra Leon warlords, again May or may not be Christian. 

But then you get into the Christian or Muslim ones. Let's see, can't forget the ottoman Turks whose atrocitities against the Armenians invented the word genocide and taught the Germans how to do it, the ayatollah, the Taliban, various dictators, does Assad count?, maybe some shahs in the past? The Barbary pirates of tripoli maybe. Somali warlords like aidid. Hussein. The crusades were bad for both sides though Saladin upon his conquest of Jerusalem did let the native Christian and Jewish residents live freely while the Christian crusaders killed everyone who wasn't Christian. The Balkan atrocities can be split between Muslim and Christians too. 

Christian tyrants: the Russian Tzars, a looong succession of popes, Louie the 16th? Of France, Napoleon maybe, Anglo Christian culture towards blacks and Indians, a bucketful of Latin American dictators and military juntas, I think the US invaded Haiti about a dozen times, Franco the horrible Spanish dictator, hitler, apartheid South Africa, 

I'm sure I missed a bunch of all types. There are tyrants and/or tyrannical behavior of all types.


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## Denton (Feb 28, 2014)

Oh yeah, can't forget the British atrocities as the conquested Ireland, Wales, and Scotland. The Belgians in the Congo created the system that would lead to the rawandan genocides. Muslim and Christian and African slave traders. The list goes on.


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## Denton (Feb 28, 2014)

These lists don't even include normal wars over power. Humans, whatcha gonna do? Modern times look pretty good.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Evolution doesn't creates tyrants any more than chocolate creates obese people.
> Only the simple minded remove personal responsibility from the equation. From reading the info at your link, that's who it was created for.
> Not your best post Art



I agree and that was my point of the link. I wanted to show the stupidity of  this line of thinking. Look at some of my earlier responses.
We can show people of any religion or no religion being or becoming evil. Justification of why one is killing or raping a bunch of folks matters not to the victims. Jim Jones comes to mind.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

As a society, how would we feel if a person/persons that could help, just stood by and watched as millions of men, women, and children were murdered, tortured, starved to death, drowned, or gassed? Knowing, that a person or persons had the power to stop it all with a snap of a finger. 
How would you feel if you learned of a person that was armed, watched a baby being raped, and that person just did nothing? 
Even if the person was a good friend of yours. Would you still feel the same way about that person? 

My point for Christians is, it's ALL God's fault. 

There was mention of actions speak louder than words. The bible speaks of God's love for us. His/her actions are deafening.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree and that was my point of the link. I wanted to show the stupidity of  this line of thinking. Look at some of my earlier responses.
> We can show people of any religion or no religion being or becoming evil. Justification of why one is killing or raping a bunch of folks matters not to the victims. Jim Jones comes to mind.


Ok, my fault, now I get it


----------



## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it." - President Barack Obama
> 
> 
> "I am not going to be the Alabama coach." - Nick Saban, 12/21/06



"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. " - Jesus

"Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." - Jesus

"And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." - Jesus


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

bullethead said:


> "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. " - Jesus
> 
> "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." - Jesus
> 
> "And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." - Jesus



All true statements.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> As does this if you apply the same standard -



It's _not_ the same standard.  God destroyed the wicked.  Hitler murdered innocents.  It's the difference between abortion and executing a murderer.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

Denton said:


> Christianity is a religion for which a person who wants to join only has to believe.



Patently untrue.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> God destroyed the wicked. Hitler murdered innocents.



So, God destroyed wicked babies and let Hitler live. Or, God doesn't consider Hitler wicked.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> All true statements.



About as "true" as the two you posted.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It's _not_ the same standard.  God destroyed the wicked.  Hitler murdered innocents.  It's the difference between abortion and executing a murderer.



How many babies are murderers? 

Thomas Paine: "Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man."


----------



## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> "If you like your health care plan, you can keep it." - President Barack Obama
> 
> 
> "I am not going to be the Alabama coach." - Nick Saban, 12/21/06



"God loves us." - The Bible


----------



## TripleXBullies (Feb 28, 2014)

bullethead said:


> He did not claim to be any of those things. It seems in his mind and according to his writings he was every bit as Christian as every other Christian thinks they are. He may very well have made himself right with Jesus in the last moments of that bunker. Everybody has got skeleton's. You might have to share yours with Adolf over brunch whether you like it or not.



Or... he may have been right with Jesus all along.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It's _not_ the same standard.  God destroyed the wicked.  Hitler murdered innocents.  It's the difference between abortion and executing a murderer.



How many fetuses in pregnant women did God kill throughout his actions within the Bible? You worship the greatest abortionist ever, make excuses for him and defend his actions.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Or... he may have been right with Jesus all along.



Perhaps God let this(Holocaust) happen in order to show Christians the evil of their ways. He does work in mysterious ways...I am told.

"The Holocaust profoundly affected the ways that Christians from across the theological spectrum think about and interact with Jews. After World War II, Christians were forced to confront their religion's role in helping make possible the demonization of Jews to such a great degree that slaughtering Jews en-masse could take place. Anti-Jewish theology, which had for two millennia pervaded Christian thought, has been largely eliminated, such as the belief that Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus."


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## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Hitler murdered innocents.



Innocents? I thought we were no innocents in the eyes of God. All 'pieces of poop', I believe was the saying. I think it may have gotten an 'Amen'.


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## Denton (Feb 28, 2014)

660griz said:


> Perhaps God let this(Holocaust) happen in order to show Christians the evil of their ways. He does work in mysterious ways...I am told.
> 
> "The Holocaust profoundly affected the ways that Christians from across the theological spectrum think about and interact with Jews. After World War II, Christians were forced to confront their religion's role in helping make possible the demonization of Jews to such a great degree that slaughtering Jews en-masse could take place. Anti-Jewish theology, which had for two millennia pervaded Christian thought, has been largely eliminated, such as the belief that Jews are responsible for the death of Jesus."



I hadn't thought about it that way but it does make sense, every now and then you run across a deed to property here in the US which still says that the property cannot be transferred to someone if they are Irish, Jewish, or Black.  That's not allowed anymore but relics still pop up.  Small scale repression could be looked over as just the way the world was, until repression got industrialized.  And even then, if Hitler hadn't invaded other countries we cared about we still might not have ever stopped him.


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## Denton (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Patently untrue.



I thought to be a christian you just had to invite jesus into your heart as your lord and savior? Even if you only do that on your death bed after a life of sin.  

What other requirements are there?


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## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

Denton said:


> I thought to be a christian you just had to invite jesus into your heart as your lord and savior? Even if you only do that on your death bed after a life of sin.
> 
> What other requirements are there?



Point fingers and shake your head at folks not living up to your standards. Whisper about folks to other like minded individuals. 
Try to get society to ban what you think is wrong. 
Suspend reasoning. Narrow your thoughts on personal freedom. Learn to pick out the good parts of the Bible. 

There is a lot to do.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It's _not_ the same standard.  God destroyed the wicked.  Hitler murdered innocents.  It's the difference between abortion and executing a murderer.


Wow. That is seriously, seriously twisted.
I know you don't see it because you are indoctrinated, but if you weren't, you would be red with shame over that comparison. At least I would hope so.


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## stringmusic (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Wow. That is seriously, seriously twisted.
> I know you don't see it because you are indoctrinated, but if you weren't, you would be red with shame over that comparison. At least I would hope so.


Everyone is indoctrinated with some type of worldview.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Wow. That is seriously, seriously twisted.
> I know you don't see it because you are indoctrinated, but if you weren't, you would be red with shame over that comparison. At least I would hope so.



I've tried to make it clear in this thread and others that y'all should be ashamed about asserting that Hitler was a Christian.  It's beyond ridiculous.

On a lighter note, I eagerly await the "Satan was a Christian" thread.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Everyone is indoctrinated with some type of worldview.



Yep.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I've tried to make it clear in this thread and others that y'all should be ashamed about asserting that Hitler was a Christian.  It's beyond ridiculous.
> 
> On a lighter note, I eagerly await the "Satan was a Christian" thread.



Hitler Was a Christian

The Holocaust was caused by Christian fundamentalism:

History is currently being distorted by the millions of Christians who lie to have us believe that the Holocaust was not a Christian deed. Through subterfuge and concealment, many of today’s Church leaders and faithful Christians have camouflaged the Christianity of Adolf Hitler and have attempted to mark him an atheist, a pagan cult worshipper, or a false Christian in order to place his misdeeds on those with out Jesus. However, from the earliest formation of the Nazi party and throughout the period of conquest and growth, Hitler expressed his Christian support to the German citizenry and soldiers. Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and chat rooms.

Considering that Christianity has thus far been incapable of producing an unbiased, educated follower which speaks the truth, (I haven’t encountered any), I have been forced to dispel the myth by writing this essay. It is not until I bring up his speeches, my personal info on the Nazi regime and their tactics that a Christian will begin to question what their clergy told them. (I am the offspring of a German soldier. My Opa served under Hitler in WW2 and my father was raised during the time of the Nazi regime. This is important information to take into consideration for I am privy to some info that most Americans do not know. It is common for American media and education institutions to lie to their citizens concerning Nazi Germany.) So, in presenting this information I must break it into four parts: 1) Facts about Hitler and his involvement with the Church. 2) How the Church was the catalyst for anti- Semitism. 3) Facts concerning how the Nazi regime drilled these beliefs into Germanic society. 4) Quotes Hitler made which prove he had a disdain for atheism/occultism, upheld his Christian faith, and hated Jews due to his Christianity.

Hitler’s involvement with the Church:

a) Hitler was baptized as Roman Catholic during infancy in Austria.

b) As Hitler approached boyhood he attended a monastery school. (On his way to school young Adolf daily observed a stone arch which was carved with the monastery’s coat of arms bearing a swastika.)

c) Hitler was a communicant and an altar boy in the Catholic Church.

d) As a young man he was confirmed as a “soldier of Christ.” His most ardent goal at the time was to become a priest. Hitler writes of his love for the church and clergy: “I had excellent opportunity to intoxicate myself with the solemn splendor of the brilliant church festivals. As was only natural, the abbot seemed to me, as the village priest had once seemed to my father, the highest and most desirable ideal.” -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

e) Hitler was NEVER excommunicated nor condemned by his church. Matter of fact the Church felt he was JUST and “avenging for God” in attacking the Jews for they deemed the Semites the killers of Jesus.

f) Hitler, Franco and Mussolini were given VETO power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain and Italy. In turn they surtaxed the Catholics and gave the money to the Vatican. Hitler wrote a speech in which he talks about this alliance, this is an excerpt: “The fact that the Vatican is concluding a treaty with the new Germany means the acknowledgement of the National Socialist state by the Catholic Church. This treaty shows the whole world clearly and unequivocally that the assertion that National Socialism [Nazism] is hostile to religion is a lie.” Adolf Hitler, 22 July 1933, writing to the Nazi Party

Hitler and the Popeg) Hitler worked CLOSELY with Pope Pius in converting Germanic society and supporting the church. The Church absorbed Nazi ideals and preached them as part of their sermons in turn Hitler placed Catholic teachings in public education. This photo depicts Hitler with Archbishop Cesare Orsenigo, the papal nuncio in Berlin. It was taken On April 20, 1939, when Orsenigo celebrated Hitler’s birthday. The celebrations were initiated by Pacelli (Pope Pius XII) and became a tradition.

Each April 20, Cardinal Bertram of Berlin was to send “warmest congratulations to the Fuhrer in the name of the bishops and the dioceses in Germany with “fervent prayers which the Catholics of Germany are sending to heaven on their altars.” (If you would like to know more about the secret dealings of Hitler and the Pope I recommend you get a book titled: Hitler’s Pope: The Secret History of Pius XII, by John Cornwell)

h) Due to Hitler’s involvement with the Church he began enacting doctrines of the Church as law. He outlawed all abortion, raged a death war on all homosexuals, and demanded corporal punishment in schools and home. Many times Hitler addressed the church and promised that Germany would implement its teachings: “The National Socialist State professes its allegiance to positive Christianity. It will be its honest endeavor to protect both the great Christian Confessions in their rights, to secure them from interference with their doctrines (Lehren), and in their duties to constitute a harmony with the views and the exigencies of the State of today.” –Adolf Hitler, on 26 June 1934, to Catholic bishops to assure them that he would take action against the new pagan propaganda “Providence has caused me to be Catholic, and I know therefore how to handle this Church.” -Adolf Hitler, reportedly to have said in Berlin in 1936 on the enmity of the Catholic Church to National Socialism

How Christianity was the catalyst of the Holocaust:

Hitler’s anti-Semitism grew out of his Christian education. Austria and Germany were majorly Christian during his time and they held the belief that Jews were an inferior status to Aryan Christians. The Christians blamed the Jews for the killing of Jesus. Jewish hatred did not actually spring from Hitler, it came from the preaching of Catholic priests and Protestant ministers throughout Germany for hundreds of years. The Protestant leader, Martin Luther, himself, held a livid hatred for Jews and their Jewish religion. In his book, “On the Jews and their Lies,” Luther set the standard for Jewish hatred in Protestant Germany up until World War 2. Hitler expressed a great admiration for Martin Luther constantly quoting his works and beliefs.

Now, you must remember before Hitler rose to Chancellor of Germany the country was in a deep economic depression due to the Versailles treaty. The Versailles treaty demanded that Germans made financial reparations for the previous war and Germany simply was not self sufficient enough in order to pay the debt. Hitler was the leader that raised Germany out of the depression and brought them back to a world recognized power. Due to his annulment of the financial woes of the Germanic people he became their redeemer and they anointed him as the leader of the German Reich Christian Church in 1933. This placed him in power of the German Christian Socialist movement which legislates their political and religious agendas. It united all denominations, mainly the Protestant/Catholic and Lutheran people to instill faith in a national Christianity.

How the Nazi Regime converted the people:

a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession...”

b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles-- or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles-- by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.” – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.

d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.

e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.

f) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”. For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.

g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.

Quotes from Hitler:

Hitler’s speeches and proclamations, even more clearly, reveal his faith and feelings toward a Christianized Germany. Nazism presents an embarrassment to Christianity and demonstrates the danger of their faith So they try to pin him on other theistic views. The following words from Hitler show his disdain for atheism, and pagan cults, and reveal the strength of his Christian feelings:

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938. [Christians have always accused Hitler of believing in pagan cult mythology. What is written here clearly expresses his stand against cults.]

“We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933 [This statement clearly refutes modern Christians who claim Hitler as favoring atheism. Hitler wanted to form a society in which ALL people worshipped Jesus and considered any questioning of such to be heresy. The Holocaust was like a modern inquisition, killing all who did not accept Jesus. Though more Jews were killed then any other it should be noted that MANY ARYAN pagans and atheists were murdered for their non-belief in Christ.]

Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

"Christianity could not content itself with building up its own altar; it was absolutely forced to undertake the destruction of the heathen altars. Only from this fanatical intolerance could its apodictic faith take form; this intolerance is, in fact, its absolute presupposition." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is quite obvious here that Hitler is referring to destructing the Judaism alters on which Christianity was founded.)

"The personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (The idea of the devil and the Jew came out of medieval anti-Jewish beliefs based on interpretations from the Bible. Martin Luther, and teachers after him, continued this “tradition” up until the 20th century.)

"With satanic joy in his face, the black-haired Jewish youth lurks in wait for the unsuspecting girl whom he defiles with his blood, thus stealing her from her people." -Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (It is common in war for one race to rape another so that they can “defile” the race and assimilate their own. Hitler speaks about this very tactic here.)

“The best characterization is provided by the product of this religious education, the Jew himself. His life is only of this world, and his spirit is inwardly as alien to true Christianity as his nature two thousand years previous was to the great founder of the new doctrine. Of course, the latter made no secret of his attitude toward the Jewish people, and when necessary he even took the whip to drive from the temple of the Lord this adversary of all humanity, who then as always saw in religion nothing but an instrument for his business existence. In return, Christ was nailed to the cross, while our present- day party Christians debase themselves to begging for Jewish votes at elections and later try to arrange political swindles with atheistic Jewish parties-- and this against their own nation.”–Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

"…the fall of man in paradise has always been followed by his expulsion." -Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf (See Genesis Chapter 3 where humankind is cast from Eden for their sins. Hitler compares this to the need to exterminate the Jews for their sin against Christ.)

“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.” –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

“The anti-Semitism of the new movement [Christian Social movement] was based on religious ideas instead of racial knowledge.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (This quote is very interesting for it disperses the idea that Hitler raged war due to being an Aryan supremacist. He states quite clearly that he has a problem with Jews for their belief not race. That is why many German Jews died in WW2 regardless of their Aryan nationality.)

“Only in the steady and constant application of force lies the very first prerequisite for success. This persistence, however, can always and only arise from a definite spiritual conviction. Any violence which does not spring from a firm, spiritual base, will be wavering and uncertain.” –Adolf Hitler Mein Kampf (Here Hitler is admitting that his war against the Jews were so successful because of his strong Christian Spirituality.)

Quotes from Other Nazis about Hitler and Religion:

"Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide." (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96)


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I've tried to make it clear in this thread and others that y'all should be ashamed about asserting that Hitler was a Christian.  It's beyond ridiculous.
> 
> On a lighter note, I eagerly await the "Satan was a Christian" thread.



You did not make a dent in trying to make it clear.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Everyone is indoctrinated with some type of worldview.





> Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine).[1] It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.[


If you were to critically examine this -


> God destroyed the wicked. Hitler murdered innocents.


You would see that its not the murder that's being judged, its who did it. In other words God was right because I believe in him but Hitler was wrong because I don't.
Both God and Hitler determined for themselves who should die and who shouldn't. If one is wrong, they both are. The example of abortion being given says the same thing. Its wrong for a person to determine that.
The example given of executing a murderer further backs that up as that requires a jury not one person.
Critical thinking says genocide is murder regardless of who does it.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I've tried to make it clear in this thread and others that y'all should be ashamed about asserting that Hitler was a Christian.  It's beyond ridiculous.
> 
> On a lighter note, I eagerly await the "Satan was a Christian" thread.


I didn't assert that he was a Christian. 
Posts were made where Hitler asserted he was a Christian.
So far you have come up with "No he wasn't".
Heres a hint - it would only take a few minutes for you to come up with actual facts to use instead of "no he wasn't".


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

Fitting for this thread:

Myth 1: Hitler was not a Christian

The entire section on Hitler's Christianity provides ample evidence for his brand of Christianity. The evidence itself destroys any opinions or beliefs about Hitler's alleged apostasy.

The evidence shows that:

    Hitler was born and baptized into Catholicism

    His Jewish antisemitism came from his Christian background.

    His early personal notes shows his interest in religion and Biblical views.

    He believed that the Bible represented the history of mankind.

    His Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution) included a section on Positive Christianity, and he never removed it.

    He confessed his Christianity.

    He tried to establish a united Reich German Church.

    Hitler allowed the destruction of Jewish synagogues and temples, but not Christian churches.

    He encouraged Nazis to worship in Christian churches.

    He spoke of his Christian beliefs in his speeches and proclamations.

    His contemporaries, friends, Protestant ministers and Catholics priests, including the Vatican, thought of Hitler as a Christian.

    The Catholic Church never excommunicated Hitler. He died a Catholic.

To ignore the evidence of Hitler's Christianity demonstrates how power of belief can obscure the facts.

Myth 2: Hitler pretended his Christianity only for political purposes

This one represents one of the most persistent constructions about Hitler's Christianity. Revealingly, proponents of this myth never provide evidence for this hypothesis. If he, indeed, pretended himself as a Christian, then on what evidential material does it stand on? If Hitler acted as a pretend Christian, then were does he disown his belief in Christ? Does he write in his private notes that he used religion only for political purposes? Did any of his close associates or friends think so? Where?

Of course Hitler did try to use political force to control Christianity and he tried to establish a unified Reich Christian Church, but this only supports his stand on his view of "positive Christianity" as described in the Nazi party platform (their version of a constitution). And yes, he criticized the Catholic and Protestant hierarchy, but so what? So do Popes and Protestant leaders. Martin Luther himself strongly condemned the Catholic religion and thought of it as the work of the Devil.

I suspect that those who propagate this myth rely on mainly one source: the dubious reliability of Hitler's table talk (a second-hand source that allegedly records the words of Hitler). The table-talk got edited by the anti-Catholic Martin Bormann (Hitler's secretary) and describes political views against the hierarchy of orthodox Christianity (just as Bormann would have liked) but even here, Hitler never speaks against Jesus Christ, but rather in favor of him. (See Hitler's table talk and other extraneous sources).

What obliterates this theory comes from the fact that Hitler continued to express his "positive" Christian views, well after his rise to power. If, indeed, he needed Christianity only for political purposes, then why-oh-why does he continue with the charade after he has established himself as absolute dictator?

But just for the sake of argument, lets pretend that Hitler really did pretend his Christianity; that his sole aim went to politically winning over German Christians so that he could gain their confidence. How in the world does that improve your argument in protecting Christianity from Hitler? If that proved the case, then who should get the blame, Hitler or the gullible Christian German citizens who believed him? And what does that say for the integrity of Christianity if the most Christianized country in the world could not distinguish a member of their own belief system? Think about it. If the most pious Christians and clergymen could not tell if Hitler practiced false or "real" Christianity, then how in the world could anyone tell? I submit that the only way to tell comes from the very words from those who make the claim. Indeed, this constitutes the very flaw of any religion because there never has existed a testable way to determine the truthfulness of a belief in the supernatural. And if you cannot tell by the words of your fellow Christians, then anyone with minimal acting talent can deceive anyone, including monks, bishops, or popes. In fact, monks, bishops and popes themselves, could fall prey to falsehood. I submit to you that a false Christian and a real Christian makes absolutely no difference. Why? Because if I have it right (and I think I do) then Christianity never represented reality, thus an honest believing Christian and a dishonest believing Christian fall on equal turf: they both have it wrong, and they both practice falsehoods!

The only evidence we have, or could ever have, about people who call themselves Christian comes from the very confession of those making the claim. And since Hitler makes his claim to Christianity abundantly and clearly, we can only rely on his claim, regardless of whether he actually believed in Christ or not. False Christianity has as just much validity as any claim to Christianity, even if you could prove dishonesty.

But regardless of how you view a person's claim to their religion, to say Hitler used Christianity only for political forces has absolutely no historical basis to back it up. To simply rely on belief or opinion says absolutely nothing about historical fact.

Myth 3: Hitler got his ideas of Aryan superiority and Jewish hatred from Darwinian evolution

Hitler showed no knowledge of Darwinian evolution or natural selection. Nowhere in Mein Kampf does he mention Darwin, natural-selection or even the word "evolution" (in the context of natural selection).

As for Aryan superiority and his Jewish hatred, Hitler clearly describes in Mein Kampf how he slowly began to change his mind about the Jews from the influence of the anti-Semitic movement of the Christian Social Party. His views with regard to anti-Semitism he said, "succumbed to the passage of time, and this was my greatest transformation of all." (read volume 1, chapter 2). Nowhere does he explain his anti-Jewish beliefs in Darwinian terms.

In his private notes, where he describes the Bible as a "Monumental History of Mankind," Hitler outlines his views of the Aryan and the Jew, all in the context of Bible reasoning, never in the context of Darwinian natural selection.

Moreover, Hitler viewed progeny, not in regards to evolution but in terms of blood lines (a Biblical view). He peppered his writings and speeches with "blood" words. Examples in Mein Kampf include:

"One blood demands one Reich."

"Bavarian by blood, technically Austrian, lived my parents..."

...the German in Austria had really been of the best blood..."

"...the weakness of leadership will not cause a hibernation of the state, but an awakening of all the individual instincts which are present in the blood..."

Clearly, Hitler had no scientific sophistication or an understanding of Darwin's theory of evolution and his "blood-line" explanation of human "progress" reveals a Biblical view, not a Darwinian view. He did, however, at times express ideas, not from Darwin, but rather from Herbert Spencer's concept of Social Darwinism, which has little to do with natural selection and served as an adjunct to his already established religious views. Spencer's Social Darwinism tried to connect Darwin's biological theory with the field of social relations. The result of Social Darwinism resulted in many eugenics programs that began in America and adopted by the Nazis. [Note that Darwin never expressed the idea that natural selection could extend from biological systems to social systems.]

Hitler best sums up his belief of Aryan superiority and his stand against the Jews with his declaration in Mein Kampf:

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

Nor can Christains accuse the Nazis of promting Darwinism or claim that the Holocaust came as a result of Darwinist thinking. In fact, the Nazi Germans banned writings about Darwinist philosophy. The Lists of Banned Books, 1932-1939 included the banning of:

"Writings of a philosophical and social nature whose content deals with the false scientific enlightenment of primitive Darwinism and Monism (Häckel)." [translated]

and also:

"All writings that ridicule, belittle or besmirch the Christian religion and its institution, faith in God, or other things that are holy to the healthy sentiments of the Volk." [translated]

Myth 4: Hitler followed Friedrich Nietzsche's philosophy

If Hitler followed Nietzschian philosophy or even admired his work, then where does he describe him or his philosophy?

Nowhere in Mein Kampf does Hitler even mention Nietzsche, or Nietzchian terms such as superman (uberman), or super race. Of course Hitler did think the Aryan's represented a superior race to the Jews, but never in Nietzchian terms.

Note that Joseph-Arthur de Gobineau invented the theory of the superior Aryan race in the 1800s in his book, An Essay on the Inequality of the Human Races. Gobineau believed that racial mixture would bring about the decline of "superior" peoples. Gobineau influenced Richard Wagner (beloved by Hitler), and Houston Stewart Chamberlain (whom Hitler read and met), both of who influenced early National Socialism (and both mentioned in Mein Kampf). Popular in Germany in the 1900s, many Germans accepted Gobineau's ideas and, no doubt, influenced Hitler either directly or indirectly. Moreover, Hitler's "superior" race ideas sound like a combination of Biblical race laws and Gobineau's Aryan race ideas, but not at all like Nietzsche.

Nor does it make sense that the Christian Hitler would admire an atheistic Nietzsche. Hitler loathed atheism. In his writings and speeches, he admonished atheists. For example:

    We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith. 
    We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, 
    and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.

    -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

Perhaps the most notorious misrepresentation of connecting Hitler and Nietzsche came from a photo-op of Hitler visiting the Nietzsche archive. Many have incorrectly believed that Hitler visited the archive on his own volition. Not so. The photo-op idea came from Nietzsche's sister, Elisabeth Förster, a wealthy Nazi supporter, who established the Nietzsche Archive in 1933, It was she who invited Hitler (after much persuasion) to visit the archive for publicity purposes. Hitler visited the archive to appease Nietzsche's anti-Semite sister. The event appeared in the German newspapers and William Shirer (The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich) briefly mentioned the event as if Hitler often visited the archive because he admired Nietzsche. Shirer probably got his information from the German propaganda article rather than from the facts of the event. (Note, scholars have criticized Shirer for his lack of scholarship and poor source material.) Elisabeth Förster also misrepresented Nietzsche by making her brother look like an anti-Semite and a proto-Nazi (Nietzsche's philosophy had little resemblance to the National Socialist German Workers' Party). Unfortunately many Germans fell for the Nietzsche-Nazi connection including many members of the Thule society.

The pre-Nazi Thule society began in the early 1900s. Rudolf von Serbottendorff became the driving force of this order which practiced occultism and an admiration of Nietzsche. Many members of the Thule society later became Nazis and did influence Nazi literature. However, Hitler never showed any interest in the Thule cult or in its pagan practices.

Anyone who uses such material to justify a Hitler-Nietzsche link simply lacks historical depth (laziness of research) and has no understanding of Hitler.

Let's face it; Hitler showed no philosophical sophistication. If any philosopher had an influence on him, it probably came from Schopenhuer (which he does briefly mention in Mein Kampf). Hans Frank, Hitler's personal lawyer, recalled that Hitler carried a copy of Schopenhauer's World as Will and Representation with him throughout World War I, but Hitler never revealed any appreciation of Friedrich Nietzsche or his philosophy.


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## stringmusic (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> If you were to critically examine this -
> 
> You would see that its not the murder that's being judged, its who did it. In other words God was right because I believe in him but Hitler was wrong because I don't.
> Both God and Hitler determined for themselves who should die and who shouldn't. If one is wrong, they both are.


False premise

Hilter and God are not equal. 


Pretend for a second that God is real, now give me the qualifications you have to judge anything He does.


BTW, Christians being in this forum discussing these theological issues should at tell you that we question(or have questioned) and critically examine things.


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## stringmusic (Feb 28, 2014)

I win.

http://www.doxa.ws/social/Hitler.html

The Religious A priori




Hitler was not a Christian: 
Refutation of Atheist Slander




One sees more and more the atheist bring up the lie that Hitler was a Christian. The point of arguing this is merely an implication: if Hitler was a Christian than Christianity doesn't realty change one's life or help one to be good. Some even go so far as to imply that Christian teaching will make you into a nazi! I've just recently had a major argument (10/5/07) on a message board with atheist several of whom asserted that all Christians are guilty of the Holocaust! As the Dawkinsians transform atheism into a hate group the potential for violent retributions grows hotter and hotter. But the desrie for vengeance is all in vein because it is nothing mroe thana slanderously lie, Hitler was not a Christian.

Hitler said some Christian sounding things in his campaign speeches, of course he did. He would have been a fool to say "I am evil and i want to destroy society and launch us into a two front war we can't win, vote for me." Atheists naively assume we can trust his campaign speeches just as we would a personal diary, but most of us know you can't trust anything a politician says in a camping! In the 1930's voters in major Western countries expected Christian candidates even more than they do now. 

Hitler's Private Statements


found on:

Asnwers in ;Action



The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7) 

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43) 

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52) 

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity. 

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65) 
13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119) 

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120) 

9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278) 



Hitler admits public statements are hallucinated to persuade and have no bearing on truth.

these are private statements Hitler made. Atheists quote his public statments which sound Chritian in places. But I argue there were political lies callculated to hoodwink the masses. What did Hitler believe about public statments and propaganda? He tells us:


"To whom should propaganda be addressed? â€¦ It must be addressed always and exclusively to the massesâ€¦ The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision. The whole art consists in doing this so skilfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself â€¦ its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellectâ€¦ it's soundness is to be measured exclusively by its effective result". (Main Kampf, Vol 1, Ch 6 and Ch 12)



Hitler's Lies in action

From Webstie Adolf Hitler, Christian, Atheist, or Neither?

"As an example of Hitler's honesty, consider the following from a letter by Hitler to the French fascist Hervé and published in the Nazi Völkischer Beobachter on October 26, 1930 (Heiden, Der Fuehrer, p. 414)" : 
"I think I can assure you that there is no one in Germany who will not with all his heart approve any honest attempt at an improvement of relations between Germany and France. My own feelings force me to take the same attitude... The German people has the solemn intention of living in peace and friendship with all civilized nations and powers... And I regard the maintenance of peace in Europe as especially desirable and at the same time secured, if France and Germany, on the basis of equal sharing of natural human rights, arrive at a real inner understanding... The young Germany, that is led by me and that finds its expression in the National Socialist Movement, has only the most heartfelt desire for an understanding with other European nations."



Obviously he was lying, here's an even bigger lie.

Ibid


In a similar vein, consider this, from a speech in the Reichstag on 30 Jan. 1939: "Amongst the accusations which are directed against Germany in the so called democracies is the charge that the National Socialist State is hostile to religion. In answer to that charge I should like to make before the German people the following solemn declaration: 1. No one in Germany has in the past been persecuted because of his religious views, nor will anyone in the future be so persecuted..."


No one is going to persecuted for his/her religious views in Germany? Its' well documented that Hitler persecuted any many groups for their religious views, including Protestants, and Catholics(more on that latter)



Overy,Why the Allies Won,(W.W. Norton, 1996) 284.


Italy was the home of Roman Catholicism; Germany's population was one-third Catholic. Religion in both states lived in uneasy proximity with regimes that were strongly anti-clerical in outlook peddling new secular religions of their own. The same month that the Papacy condemned communism, a second encyclical was published, "Mit Brennender Sorge" ("With Burning Anxiety"), which condemned the Nazi persecution of the churches, Nazi racism and Mussolini's deification of the state. Though Hitler often invoked God or Providence when he spoke, he was a thoroughly lapsed Catholic. Hitler considered Christianity incompatible with with the new National-Socialist age--it was "merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics". He deplored the survivalof religious observance among German ministers and generals, "little children who have learnt nothing else". He regarded Christianity and communism as two sides of the same coin, sharing in St. Paul a common Jewish ancesteor. Hitler took the German nation as his religion. This did not make him a pagan as was widely believed, although paganism was practised under the Third Reich. The German Faith Movement, under the banner of the golden sun-wheel, with the "Song of the Goths" as their anthem, indulged in pagan festivals and invoked the gods of pre-Christian Germany. Heinrich Himmler's SS generated a pagan theology, a pagan litury, even a pagan credo.



The following points are from Bede's Library an article called "Hitler and Christianity by an agnostic and an amateur historian of 20th Century German history, Edward Bartlett-Jones.


(1) The Attitude Instilled in the Hitler youth


A Hitler Youth marching song (Grunberger, A Social History) illustrates it: 
We follow not Christ, but Horst Wessel, Away with incense and Holy Water, The Church can go hang for all we care, The Swastika brings salvation on Earth.


(Horst Wessel was an early Nazi party Sturmabteilung street-fighter murdered by communists and turned into a martyr by propaganda chief Josef Goebbels.)



(2) SS was very anti-Christian and Occult bassed


The SS were particularly anti-Christian, and officers and men were encouraged to leave the Church, although those that refused to renounce their Christian faith were not visibly punished, perhaps because their otherwise faithful adherence to SS codes of behaviour gave the lie to any claim of true Christian affiliation. The SS also brought in its own neo-pagan rituals for marriage ceremonies and baptisms



(3) Himmler was deeply into the occult, Hitler dabbled.



In the debate about his spiritual leanings, Hitler is also sometimes alleged to have flirted with the occult, although in fact it was far more a passion of Himmlerâ€™s. For instance, Hitler loathed astrologers. Others close to him, such as Goering, were also dismissive of Himmlerâ€™s obsession with the supernatural and Hitler would no doubt have enjoyed Goebbels' joke, during one clampdown on eccentric religious types, that it was â€œodd that not a single one [of a group of arrested clairvoyants] predicted he would be arrestedâ€�. Goebbels would later try to rally Hitler in his bunker at the end of the war with astrological charts predicting victory but Hitler was still unmoved.


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## stringmusic (Feb 28, 2014)

BTW, I didn't read a single word of that last post, I just wanted a longer post than yours that said Hitler was in fact not a Christian.  

Nanner nanner boo boo.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> So far you have come up with "No he wasn't".
> Heres a hint - it would only take a few minutes for you to come up with actual facts to use instead of "no he wasn't".



Actually, it only took a few seconds.  Matthew 7:

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven


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## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Actually, it only took a few seconds.  Matthew 7:
> 
> 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
> 
> ...


Um, do these apply to Christians?


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## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Hitler was not a Christian:
> Refutation of Atheist Slander



That actually made me LOL. Good stuff. 
I am honestly glad you have a sense of humor about this stuff.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Um, do these apply to Christians?



Um, yes.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> False premise
> 
> Hilter and God are not equal.
> 
> ...





> Hilter and God are not equal.


So? If your boss steals from the company its right but if you steal from the company its wrong?


> Pretend for a second that God is real, now give me the qualifications you have to judge anything He does.


This question is a fantastic example of your indoctrination.


> Pretend for a second that God is real


Ok maybe its wrong of me but that made me chuckle


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## 660griz (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Actually, it only took a few seconds.  Matthew 7:



I base he is a Christian on words from him, you base he is not a Christian based on words.

Actions between God and Hitler are very similar. Hmmmm


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## WaltL1 (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> BTW, I didn't read a single word of that last post, I just wanted a longer post than yours that said Hitler was in fact not a Christian.
> 
> Nanner nanner boo boo.



By the way heres an example of critical thinking. From your post (that you didn't read lol)


> if Hitler was a Christian than Christianity doesn't realty change one's life or help one to be good. Some even go so far as to imply that Christian teaching will make you into a nazi!


Critical thinking tells me that even though I don't believe in Christianity -


> if Hitler was a Christian than Christianity doesn't realty change one's life or help one to be good.


I know that is horse dung because Christianity has changed many lives and has helped many people to be better than they were before.


> Some even go so far as to imply that Christian teaching will make you into a nazi!


I know that is horse dung because I know many Christians who are not Nazi's
In other words just because they said it doesn't mean I believe it. Critical thinking tells me they are wrong.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

660griz said:


> I base he is a Christian on words from him ...



Jesus said to ignore that.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2014)

Would it be safe to say Hitler was a misguided Christian? He thought he was doing right by God. He thought God was on his side.
Not to the same extreme but many Christians have been misguided over the years to the point of doing evil things like the Klan or atrocities in time of war. Some Christians back in the 50's & 60's thought God was on their side in the way they treated blacks and women. Some still feel this way. 
Today we have misguided terrorist bombers killing for God including Christians bombing abortion clinics. These people aren't Atheist. Look back through history and see all of the atrocities done in the name of God.


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It's _not_ the same standard.  God destroyed the wicked.  Hitler murdered innocents.  It's the difference between abortion and executing a murderer.



Those wicked babies he drowned with the flood... The wicked unborn fetus too... You're right... I would have done the same thing


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> BTW, I didn't read a single word of that last post, I just wanted a longer post than yours that said Hitler was in fact not a Christian.
> 
> Nanner nanner boo boo.



You should read yours...it doesn't do as good of a job as you hoped it would.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> False premise
> 
> Hilter and God are not equal.
> 
> ...



Pretend.
Nail=Head


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would it be safe to say Hitler was a misguided Christian? He thought he was doing right by God. He thought God was on his side.
> Not to the same extreme but many Christians have been misguided over the years to the point of doing evil things like the Klan or atrocities in time of war. Some Christians back in the 50's & 60's thought God was on their side in the way they treated blacks and women. Some still feel this way.
> Today we have misguided terrorist bombers killing for God including Christians bombing abortion clinics. These people aren't Atheist. Look back through history and see all of the atrocities done in the name of God.



And if they believe in their own heart that they are following their god's will... their god being the same as many of yours... Who are YOU to say they are not Christians? Any of you. Not as GOOD of Christians as you are is also still a judgement.


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> BTW, I didn't read a single word of that last post, I just wanted a longer post than yours that said Hitler was in fact not a Christian.
> 
> Nanner nanner boo boo.



Check*

 In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:

    My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.

    In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison.

    Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross.

    As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice . . .

    And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery.

    When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.""


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

Mate*

http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.ww2.html


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Check*
> 
> In a speech delivered April 12, 1922, published in "My New Order," and quoted in Freethought Today (April 1990), Hitler said:
> 
> ...



He shonuff "talks the talk".  If only that mattered....


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## bullethead (Feb 28, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> He shonuff "talks the talk".  If only that mattered....



Talking the talk seems to be the common thing among most religious.

What matters in here is the ability of you to actually produce something to back up your assertions.

All we have heard from you so far is "no he isn't"...

Give us some solid info on his religious practices.
Show us that he did not make peace with his Lord in that bunker.
Give us some factual information that backs up what you are telling us.
Now if all you are claiming is that he doesn't measure up to being a Christian according to your standards then just tell us. If you can show us the part that "mattered" that he did not do please do so.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Those wicked babies he drowned with the flood... The wicked unborn fetus too... You're right... I would have done the same thing



We kill innocent babies everyday in abortion clinics...we'ns allow that to happen.  What's our excuse? even without a God, what is our excuse?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

Hitler is of course not the only one....satan/the antichrist is alive and well on planet earth, all nations.  Hitler is just such a good example of someone who justifies his actions by the OT to brainwash people.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Mate*
> 
> http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.ww2.html



Interesting reading. It appears many individuals hated Jews. Hitler was just able to use his power to manifest what others felt. I can see something like the Holocaust happening in the US if the right person would have taken over  the US in the 50's or 60's. The hatred or public outlook was already present, he just used it for his agenda.
It's hard to believe one man and even his army could have done what he did without some public assistance. 
I doubt the US and other Allies were as concerned with his Jew killings as we were with his taking over the world ideas. It doesn't appear the Jews had many allies among the world. I can't defend Hitler but he wasn't the only one. 
It would be like trying to make George Wallace out to being the only bigot without any support from constituents being bigots themselves. Wallace didn't make his constituents bigots. Wallace or Hitler were nothing without their followers. We as humans like to place the blame on one individual or scapegoat but that's not usually the case. There may be a ring leader but it doesn't say much for individuals if we can be lead into a hatred of fellow man campaign by just one man.


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## bullethead (Mar 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting reading. It appears many individuals hated Jews. Hitler was just able to use his power to manifest what others felt. I can see something like the Holocaust happening in the US if the right person would have taken over  the US in the 50's or 60's. The hatred or public outlook was already present, he just used it for his agenda.
> It's hard to believe one man and even his army could have done what he did without some public assistance.
> I doubt the US and other Allies were as concerned with his Jew killings as we were with his taking over the world ideas. It doesn't appear the Jews had many allies among the world. I can't defend Hitler but he wasn't the only one.
> It would be like trying to make George Wallace out to being the only bigot without any support from constituents being bigots themselves. Wallace didn't make his constituents bigots. Wallace or Hitler were nothing without their followers. We as humans like to place the blame on one individual or scapegoat but that's not usually the case. There may be a ring leader but it doesn't say much for individuals if we can be lead into a hatred of fellow man campaign by just one man.



You are right Art. As a whole the entire human race has been killing and is responsible for atrocities since our earliest beginnings. As we get more advanced so do our methods for killing each other. Blaming someone else is always the scapegoat as is convincing ourselves that if it is done in the name of a higher power or with the approval of a higher power or best of them all...a higher power commands it...we just make it easier to justify it and move on.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2014)

bullethead said:


> You are right Art. As a whole the entire human race has been killing and is responsible for atrocities since our earliest beginnings. As we get more advanced so do our methods for killing each other. Blaming someone else is always the scapegoat as is convincing ourselves that if it is done in the name of a higher power or with the approval of a higher power or best of them all...a higher power commands it...we just make it easier to justify it and move on.



It's like people who eat meat but aren't willing to kill the animal themselves. Somehow eating the meat that someone else killed is OK.
Yes and as you mentioned, in times of war we all like to think God is on our side. I'm convinced Hitler thought so. If you can convince your men the the enemy is evil non humans and that you are killing them for God, it helps the cause.


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## 660griz (Mar 1, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's like people who eat meat but aren't willing to kill the animal themselves. Somehow eating the meat that someone else killed is OK.
> Yes and as you mentioned, in times of war we all like to think God is on our side. I'm convinced Hitler thought so. If you can convince your men the the enemy is evil non humans and that you are killing them for God, it helps the cause.



Herd mentality.


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## bullethead (Mar 1, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Pretend for a second that God is real, now give me the qualifications you have to judge anything He does.



If he is real then he leads by example. No one on this planet has ever done anything worse than the God of the Bible.

All of these qualities are part of humans and make us all capable of judgement. Your God is very human.

Positive Qualities
Able
Adaptable
Adventurous
Affable
Affectionate
Agreeable
Ambitious
Analytical
Assertive
Astute
Attentive
Aware
Balanced
Brave
Bright
Brilliant
Calm
Capable
Caring
Cautious
Certain
Charitable
Chirpy
Compassionate
Confident
Considerate
Consistent
Cooperative
Courageous
Conscientious
Courteous
Decisive
Dedicated
Dependable
Determined
Devoted
Disciplined
Driven
Efficient
Egalitarian
Empathetic
Enduring
Enterprising
Erudite
Faithful
Farsighted
Flexible
Focused
Forgiving
Friendly
Frugal
Generous
Gentle
Giving
Graceful
Grateful
Hardworking
Harmonious
Helpful
Honest
Humble
Humorous
Idealistic
Imaginative
Independent
Industrious
Innovative
Insightful
Inspiring
Invigorating
Joyful
Just
Kind
Logical
Loving
Loyal
Mature
Methodical
Modest
Motivating
Morality
Noble
Nurturing
Obedient
Open-minded
Optimistic
Organized
Outgoing
Passionate
Patient
Perceptive
Persevering
Poised
Polite
Practical
Professional
Punctual
Realistic
Reliable
Resourceful
Respectful
Responsible
Selfless
Sensitive
Simple
Sincere
Spontaneous
Stable
Strong-willed
Tactful
Thoughtful
Thrifty
Tolerant
Trustworthy
Understanding
Unflappable
Visionary
Vital
Warm
Willing
Wise

Negative qualities
Aggressive
Apathetic
Arrogant
Belligerent
Biased
Boastful
Boorish
Bossy
Callous
Careless
Caustic
Complacent
Conceited
Conniving
Controlling
Cowardly
Curt
Cynical
Deceitful
Dishonest
Disrespectful
Egocentric
Evil
Exacting
Fearful
Finicky
Fussy
Garrulous
Glum
Greedy
Grumpy
Harried
Harsh
Haughty
Hostile
Ignorant
Immature
Impatient
Inconsiderate
Indecisive
Insensitive
Interfering
Irresponsible
Jealous
Killjoy
Languid
Lazy
Lax
Loner
Malicious
Materialistic
Mean
Miserly
Moody
Naive
Narrow-minded
Nasty
Obnoxious
Obstinate
Outspoken
Pessimistic
Petulant
Pompous
Possessive
Quarrelsome
Quixotic
Rambunctious
Rebellious
Resentful
Rigid
Rude
Sarcastic
Scornful
Selfish
Spiteful
Stingy
Stubborn
Superficial
Taciturn
Thoughtless
Touchy
Uncouth
Ungrateful
Unreliable
Unscrupulous
Untidy
Vain
Vengeful
Vulgar
Wicked


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2014)

We are made in the image of God. We have the same emotions. How convenient is that?


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## bullethead (Mar 2, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> We are made in the image of God. We have the same emotions. How convenient is that?



what are the odds?


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## 660griz (Mar 4, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> We kill innocent babies everyday in abortion clinics...we'ns allow that to happen.  What's our excuse? even without a God, what is our excuse?



Same excuse is to why I can take a fertilized chicken egg out to my front yard and burn it with a soldering iron all day and slam it on the road. However, I take a live chicken and do the same, I go to jail. Are humans and chickens the same, of course not, just showing the difference between living and being a living being. One has rights, one doesn't.

Even the bible states in Gen. 2:7, "And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."

Mammals, by definition, BREATH. 


As far as Hitler and Christianity goes, I really can't blame Christians for wanting to distance one's self from him. 
However, a more intellectually honest view point would be to accept him as a misguided soul. A sinner. Just like everyone else.

You would really be surprised if you knew how many misguided souls in the U.S. were cheering for Hitler. Some prominent figures did so publicly. While you may not accept their religious affiliation, I can tell you what they were NOT, atheist.


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