# The radicals inside Christianity.



## hobbs27

Here's an example of radical extremist inside our own faith of Christianity. It is rooted from a bad interpretation of the bible known as dispensationalism.. Shouldnt we be responsible for shutting it down, or should we stand by and watch it fester as Muslims have?



 Here is Hagees' twin ideology from the other side.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/89739/Caliphate


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## Artfuldodger

I'm not sure what you are asking. I would say that most Christians in the US would not like for us to have laws based on very fundamental Christian views. We wouldn't like laws that would prevent women from wearing jewelry or pants. 
We wouldn't like our laws based on a certain denomination's beliefs such as the Apostolic Pentecostals. I'm using them as their beliefs are more fundamental. They have a lot of rules. Especially for women.
Many Christians are still hung up on laws than grace. 

The Christians in the video are mostly talking about going to war in the Middle East based on Biblical prophesy instead of our government basing  their war actions on secular events.
How Do they think we can change prophesy is beyond me.
It does appear to be a dangerous way to believe. I can see their way of thinking as being just as wrong as the Muslims way of thinking which is war for God. If God wants his prophesy to be fulfilled by war in the middle east, he'll make it happen.

I wonder what differences in opinion this question would be answered in the Political forum? They seem to be more fundamental down there.


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## hobbs27

Art... you dont see the connection of what Hagee preaches and what the radical muslims of isis ideology are teaching? They are two peas of the same pod.
 Hagee prays to Jesus for his government to kill, while isis does the killing themselves and its all on a false interpretation of the bible.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Here's an example of radical extremist inside our own faith of Christianity. It is rooted from a bad interpretation of the bible known as dispensationalism.. Shouldnt we be responsible for shutting it down, or should we stand by and watch it fester as Muslims have?
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Hagees' twin ideology from the other side.
> 
> http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/89739/Caliphate




I am no dispensationalist, but this is just anti-Israel propaganda.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Art... you dont see the connection of what Hagee preaches and what the radical muslims of isis ideology are teaching? They are two peas of the same pod.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Hagee prays to Jesus for his government to kill, while isis does the killing themselves and its all on a false interpretation of the bible.



I did not see any date on that video, but it is almost certainly before the invasion of Iraq in 2003.  I see no problem in praying for our leaders and our armed forces as the go into war.  Hagee is certainly not praying FOR war as the title of the video suggests.


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## hobbs27

I see little difference here. Ignorance run amuck!


..


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## centerpin fan

I'll believe this:



hobbs27 said:


> Art... you dont see the connection of what Hagee preaches and what the radical muslims of isis ideology are teaching? They are two peas of the same pod.



... when Hagee starts beheading people.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I see little difference here. Ignorance run amuck!
> 
> 
> ..




I think your distaste for dispensationalism is clouding your judgement.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> I did not see any date on that video, but it is almost certainly before the invasion of Iraq in 2003.  I see no problem in praying for our leaders and our armed forces as the go into war.  Hagee is certainly not praying FOR war as the title of the video suggests.



He certainly isn't praying for peace..I would think the true Christians prayer would be that war could be averted and the enemy converted, not that the enemy be confused and destroyed.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> I'll believe this:
> 
> 
> 
> ... when Hagee starts beheading people.




Yep, I agree he isn't that far along, but I think he would support it if it meant giving Israel more land.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> I think your distaste for dispensationalism is clouding your judgement.




I hate these cheesy YouTube videos. There's a point to this I'm trying to put together. I'll take a break and see if I can get it from my mind to paper and do a better job of showing my thought here.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> He certainly isn't praying for peace..I would think the true Christians prayer would be that war could be averted and the enemy converted ...



That time had long since past.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Yep, I agree he isn't that far along, but I think he would support it if it meant giving Israel more land.



C'mon. 

Israel doesn't want more land.  It just wants to be left alone.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> C'mon.
> 
> Israel doesn't want more land.  It just wants to be left alone.



The part that wants to be left alone, I support. The Zionist, and Zionist Christians << oxymoron I do not. While I'm willing to support what is there now I believe Truman made a huge mistake going against the advice of his generals and recognizing Israel as a state. But the damage has been done and we are left dealing with it.


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## hobbs27

Sound familiar?


1. Islamic Eschatology

Introduction:  There are two religious sources within Islam which teach the â€œtime of the endâ€� eschatology.  The first is the Koran which is viewed as inspired and infallible allegedly describing God giving the prophet Mohammad revelation from the angel Gabriel and compiling the doctrine which resulted from those revelations.  Not much eschatology is found in the Koran except affirmations of a future coming â€œhourâ€� in which Allah will resurrect men and judge the world.  The second source is the Hadith and is not considered as infallible as the Koran because it contains teachings and stories about Mohammadâ€™s life that were not considered direct revelation from Allah.  These teachings were compiled some 200 years after Mohammadâ€™s death.  As we will readily see, Mohammad and Islam borrows OT and NT Scriptures and joins them and their concepts with other â€œrevelationsâ€� from angels or prophets giving them the â€œtrueâ€� meaning (similar to Jehovahâ€™s Wittnesses or the Mormons etcâ€¦).

â€œWe are living in the final era of the last daysâ€� mentality:  Islamic Jihadist groups justify their wars and actions as simply fulfilling Allahâ€™s teachings and that they are living in the final era which will usher in the Second Coming of Jesus and the appearance of Mahadi.  There are three main or significant periods of time for the Muslim before the final judgment comes and there is much debate as to if some of them overlap.  They are:  1. the time which followed the death of Muhammad, 2. the period in which his contemporaries passed extending to and ended a 1,000 years later.  It is taught today that Muslims are now living toward the end of this second period and that the appearance of Mahdi will bring them into the third which is the â€œend of daysâ€� era.

General and Specific Signs:  Like the three time periods discussed above, there is much debate on where these signs belong within their eschatological timeline among Islamic adherents.  So I will list many of them and place in bold those that may overlap or concepts that were borrowed from Jesus and the NT.

General Signs:

·       Earthquakes and natural disturbances.  There will be three landslides and smoke will appear darkening the planet.

·       The taking away of knowledge and increase of ignorance (of Allahâ€™s teachings).  Seeking false and unknowledgeable teachers.

·       The increase in sexual sins (having sex in the streets as donkeys do), drinking alcohol and high interest rates.

·       Increase in secular music.

·       Increase of wars including civil wars and Jews fighting Muslims.

·       Womenâ€™s population increases while manâ€™s decreases (probably due to wars).

·       The Romans/Christians will become the majority.

·       A desire to die will increase due to the natural disturbances and the wickedness of man which will run rampant.

Specific Signs:

·       Mahdi will appear which will be the first sign of the third eschatological period of the end of days.

·       The second sign is the arrival of the False Messiah or Antichrist Dajjal who will appear having miraculous powers, blind in one eye, and he will deceive many but true believers in Allah will not be led astray.  It is believed that he will be a Jew and muster up a mass army of 140,000 (70,000 being Jews).  He rules most of the world for a period of 40 years

·       Jesusâ€™ second coming is the third major sign marking the last days and when he comes he destroys the antichrist.

·       The fourth sign of the end time scene will be that the wall which imprisons the nations of Gog and Magog will break and they will surge forth.  When the great battle of Gog and Magog occurs there will be two massive armies attacking Jesus and his followers followed by Jesus crying out to Allah whom will deliver them.

·       The fifth sign is that Medinah (an Islamic holy city in Saudi Arabia) will be deserted because the righteous follow the Madi and the unrighteous will follow the antichrist.
 â€¢The sixth sign is that a thin ruler with short legs from Ethiopia will attack Mecca and destroy the Kabah.
 â€¢The seventh sign is the appearance of the Beast of the Earth, who will populate the entire world and judge the wicked.

·       The eighth sign is a peaceful breeze which kills Jesus and all the righteous.

·       The ninth sign will be the rising of the sun in the west.

·       The great battle of Gog and Magog occurs which consists of two massive armies attacking Jesus and his followers followed by Jesus crying out to Allah and Allah delivers them.

·       Jesusâ€™ earthly reign also lasts 40 years during which time he establishes the one true religion of Islam in the hearts and minds of men.  During his reign people turn their weapons of war into farm tools, and animals are domesticated.  Jesus eventually marries and has children and then dies awaiting a literal resurrection with all men.  A wind will blow from the south which will cause Jesus and believers to die peacefully.

·       Three eschatological trumpets are blown.  The first causes all men to fear.  The second causes everything to die.  Allah creates the new heavens and earth during this time.  Then the third and final trumpet causes the resurrection to take place.

As one who is familiar with the Old and New Testaments can plainly see, Islam stole and pieced together its eschatology from the Christian Bible (particularly from places within Isaiah, Daniel, Matthew 24, 1 & 2 Thessalonians, 1 Corinthians, and the book of Revelation).  Although Islam teaches that the Bible is a revelation from Allah, Muslims believe it allegedly got corrupted therefore Allah had to send the angel Gabriel to give revelations of divine truth to Muhammad concerning these and other issues.  This begs the obvious question â€“ If Allah divinely gave the OT and NT, and they got corrupted, why is anyone supposed to believe that Allah got it right with the Koran and has kept the Koran from being corrupted?!?

http://fullpreterism.com/a-christia...l-false-prophecies-or-prophecies-that-have-a/


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## centerpin fan

From the link:



> Are Christians in the U.S. supposed to support modern day Israel because God will bless any Nation that blesses Israel?



This Christian supports Israel because it is the only decent country in the entire Middle East.  Historically, its neighbors have been a veritable "who's who" of scum and villainy.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> From the link:
> 
> 
> 
> This Christian supports Israel because it is the only decent country in the entire Middle East.  Historically, its neighbors have been a veritable "who's who" of scum and villainy.



I support Israel in its current borders because of politics not religion. As its neighbors want to wipe it off the map...we have people like hagee that want to extend its borders, through Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan. Both ideologies are harmful and causes more conflict in the area. And they are both acting out their ideas of end times!


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## Artfuldodger

“Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:10–12”

If our struggle isn't against flesh and blood? Is this not talking about evil people or is it about our own flesh and blood?


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## SemperFiDawg

hobbs27 said:


> Here's an example of radical extremist inside our own faith of Christianity. It is rooted from a bad interpretation of the bible known as dispensationalism.. Shouldnt we be responsible for shutting it down, or should we stand by and watch it fester as Muslims have?
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Hagees' twin ideology from the other side.
> 
> http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/89739/Caliphate



I'm not defending Hagee who I don't listen to,  and certainly not Benny Hinn who in my opinion is a con man and false prophet at best, BUT when you make the statement that dispensationalism "is a bad interpretation of the Bible" ...well it comes across about as truthful as your Memetar.

The truth is dispensationalism, just like the rapture, can be and has been shown to enjoy broad Scriptural support.

Regarding dispensationalism, you question whether "we be responsible for shutting it down" under the inference it's akin to ISIS/Radical Islam; only Christian in nature. 

And why?  All because it deviates from your avowed, sacrosanct, utter self absorption in preterism, which is not even a Primary doctrine and has nothing what-so-ever to do with the GOSPEL other than totally destroying anyone's motivation to share it.

In the past we've discussed how even John's students did not hold to the preterist views.  You chose to believe in preterism despite this and that's OK.  It's not the Gospel.  You can still be a Christian and be a preterist.  

We've also discussed how your Memetar is false, because John's students believed in the Rapture as evidenced by their own writings and since none lived until 1827 it must be false, but yet you still display it.   And again, that's OK.  Ones view of the timing of the rapture, doesn't negate ones accepting Christ.  

We've also discussed that to be totally honest, there's Scripture to support both views, and if there wasn't this would be a non issue. Ditto for dispensationalism.

But now you have become so enamored with 
a) the preterist view, 
b) being right, or 
c) both 
that you want to silence or ostracize other CHRISTIANS who don't agree with you.  

THAT my friend you cannot do and be a Christian; not over something as trivial as this. 

The whole basis of Christianity is love and forgiveness of those who DONT deserve it.  May I suggest that when you get so bogged down in ANY doctrine that you are willing to "shut down" another Christian you have lost sight of the TRUTH, having lost the forest looking for a tree and are on shaky ground.  

Jesus didn't call us to interpret the intricacies of the Bible.  He had the Pharisees for that, but they couldn't see the forest for the trees either.  He called us to quite simply, to show others the love he showed to us and point to him as the source.  Please don't let your zeal and your ego cloud that , lest you end up burning some CHRISTIAN at the stake for Heresy.......like ISIS.


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## SemperFiDawg

John Hagee is about an accurate example of the dispensationalist view as Benny Hinn is of Elijah.

You may want to seek a bit more informed view of what dispensationalism is before you stock up on fat lighter and stakes.

This

https://carm.org/dispensationalism

would be a good place to start.


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## hobbs27

SemperFiDawg said:


> John Hagee is about an accurate example of the dispensationalist view as Benny Hinn is of Elijah.
> 
> You may want to seek a bit more informed view of what dispensationalism is before you stock up on fat lighter and stakes.
> 
> This
> 
> https://carm.org/dispensationalism
> 
> would be a good place to start.



Thanks for the link. I agree with the definition the link put forth, and always have, therefore I am still against this dangerous and in my mind heretical system of interpretation.

 It is this  kind of interpretation that believes the church age will end and a new temple will be built in physical Jerusalem. It also does not recognize the fulfillment of the land promise, so it wants to extend the current border of Israel. This is the reason I see these people as equal to the radicals in Islam.


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## Artfuldodger

There are promises to Israel that are yet to be fulfilled.  Israel will be completely restored and be prominent in the world as it carries out God’s promises. 

https://carm.org/dispensationalism

For the individual believer of dispensationalism, where does it say Israel's borders will be extended? 
Even if they will be can't we depend on God to fulfill his promise?
Why must we as the US help Israel extend it's borders? 
Why must we as Christians help Israel extend it's borders?


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## hobbs27

http://www.salon.com/2002/05/24/dispensational/


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.salon.com/2002/05/24/dispensational/



That's not exactly an objective source.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> That's not exactly an objective source.



I know, but it's not 3rd person opinion and uses direct quotes


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> That's not exactly an objective source.


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> C'mon.
> 
> Israel doesn't want more land.  It just wants to be left alone.


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## centerpin fan

gordon, the second video is an hour long, so I did not watch.  Regarding the first video:


"As for the monumental injustice supposedly done to the Palestinians, it consists largely of losing territory in the war they themselves provoked in 1967, and the refusal of their demand that every inch of it be returned to them by the Israeli victors in that war. Such demands have always been known and universally denounced as revanchism or irredentism, most recently over the Russian seizure of Crimea. But where Israel is concerned, everything goes topsy-turvy, so that Palestinian irredentism is universally supported....

In any event, this "injustice" is also self-inflicted, since three times in the past 15 years the Palestinians have refused offers of a state on most of the territory taken by Israel in 1967 and with Jerusalem as its capital. They have justified these refusals by one pretext or another, but as anyone willing to look can see, what they truly want is not a state of their own living side by side with Israel but a state that replaces Israel altogether.

With this we come to the main reason I believe that the Palestinians do not deserve any sympathy, let alone the astonishing degree of it they do receive (and not least from many of my fellow Jews). It is that ever since the day of Israel's birth in 1948, they have never ceased declaring that their goal is to wipe it off the map...." 

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304640104579487444112949138


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## centerpin fan

I've posted this before, but it's worth another look.


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> gordon, the second video is an hour long, so I did not watch.  Regarding the first video:
> 
> 
> "As for the monumental injustice supposedly done to the Palestinians, it consists largely of losing territory in the war they themselves provoked in 1967, and the refusal of their demand that every inch of it be returned to them by the Israeli victors in that war. Such demands have always been known and universally denounced as revanchism or irredentism, most recently over the Russian seizure of Crimea. But where Israel is concerned, everything goes topsy-turvy, so that Palestinian irredentism is universally supported....
> 
> In any event, this "injustice" is also self-inflicted, since three times in the past 15 years the Palestinians have refused offers of a state on most of the territory taken by Israel in 1967 and with Jerusalem as its capital. They have justified these refusals by one pretext or another, but as anyone willing to look can see, what they truly want is not a state of their own living side by side with Israel but a state that replaces Israel altogether.
> 
> With this we come to the main reason I believe that the Palestinians do not deserve any sympathy, let alone the astonishing degree of it they do receive (and not least from many of my fellow Jews). It is that ever since the day of Israel's birth in 1948, they have never ceased declaring that their goal is to wipe it off the map...."
> 
> http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304640104579487444112949138



Then we will go with your objective view. I shall never give a Palestinian "any" sympathy--- ever again. There you have it. But let me add something....I know never to expect sympathy from him in any way. And now knowing this, that it is clear to " never to give a Palestinian any sympathy" let us get together and lobby our governments to buy settlers bulldozers and prove it in reality.

The settlers are doing to the Palestinians what the Europeans did to the natives of the Western Plains of North America. They are doing what Stalin did to the native populations of the countries bordering Russian.

But alas! I have no sympathy for Palestinians... Their prayers for justice are ridiculous...


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## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> Then we will go with your objective view. I shall never give a Palestinian "any" sympathy--- ever again. There you have it. But let me add something....I know never to expect sympathy from him in any way. And now knowing this, that it is clear to " never to give a Palestinian any sympathy" let us get together and lobby our governments to buy settlers bulldozers and prove it in reality.
> 
> The settlers are doing to the Palestinians what the Europeans did to the natives of the Western Plains of North America. They are doing what Stalin did to the native populations of the countries bordering Russian.
> 
> But alas! I have no sympathy for Palestinians... Their prayers for justice are ridiculous...




This is not about land.  The Palestinians are not interested in land unless it comes with a lot of dead Jews.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> This is not about land.  The Palestinians are not interested in land unless it comes with a lot of dead Jews.



And that's one side of the issue. Muslim nations flood the Palestinians with weapons and propaganda to continue the fight against Israel.

The other side is the dispensationalist such as Hagee flooding the Israelis with money, aid, and propaganda to expand its borders, to bring all the Jews home, so that their ridiculous interpretation of prophecy could come to pass.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> And that's one side of the issue. Muslim nations flood the Palestinians with weapons and propaganda to continue the fight against Israel.
> 
> The other side is the dispensationalist such as Hagee flooding the Israelis with money, aid, and propaganda to expand its borders, to bring all the Jews home, so that their ridiculous interpretation of prophecy could come to pass.



If I have to choose between those two options, I'm going with the latter.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> If I have to choose between those two options, I'm going with the latter.



I choose to go against both and condemn the ones doing it in the name of Christianity, just as Muslims should condemn the ones doing it in the name of Islam.


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## gordon 2




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## centerpin fan




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## gordon 2

Some kid asked this question to google in order to make their school assignment.  It goes something like this.


Why  did George Washington fight against the British?

 Answer: George Washington fought the British, because The Patriots rebelled because they were angry about  a)British taxes. The British were short of money after the French and Indian War, so they taxed colonists and English people to regain what they had lost. And that is, because George Washington thought it was unfair to tax the people.The colonists b) believed that this was unfair, and that only their representatives could tax them.  c)They wanted to have a representative in Parliament, too. They protested violently and peacefully, but soon it got out of hand and it led to a war....thus, the Revolutionary War! (or the American Revolution).
-------------------------------------------------------------
Now if the Americans could fight the British for such a thing as taxes without representative government,.... Imagine!...  how much more they could have been driven to fight for the denial of their basic human rights?


-----------------------------------------------------------------


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## gordon 2

If Isaiah was a prophet of those who claim to be the children of Abraham, they would heed onto the words God spoke to Isaiah. Christians would heed, Jews would heed and Muslims would heed.

But let us make excuses that Isaiah was for another time and for other men and that when God spoke to Isaiah about them, he does not mean Christians, Jews and Muslims and other people of faith today.

I am thinking especially of this:

 Isaiah 6 King James Version (KJV)

6 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.

3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

6 Then flew one of the seraphims unto me, having a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with the tongs from off the altar:

7 And he laid it upon my mouth, and said, Lo, this hath touched thy lips; and thine iniquity is taken away, and thy sin purged.

8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

12 And the Lord have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves: so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

King James Version (KJV)

Come on brothers load your hands,  and let us throw the first stone even preemptively.  Even the God of Abraham He never knew,  never could He foresee, the ruptures in our hearts-- that in reality the least is not He and this regardless what He or his prophets might have said once in days long ago and foreign to our  present cares.

 Come on brothers load your hands...  Pick up what is at your feet and low and make it pierce what is high  and know that the God of Abraham can take it... on the temple and the chin.  After all, He must be use to it by now...  and now in this very day, today...even in Abraham's Holy Land, but also in the lands of the Christians and the Muslims.


 Yet those who have faith... hear and hear once again, and hear how God is patient and gracious to those who repent.


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## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> Some kid asked this question to google in order to make their school assignment.  It goes something like this.
> 
> 
> Why  did George Washington fight against the British?
> 
> Answer: George Washington fought the British, because The Patriots rebelled because they were angry about  a)British taxes. The British were short of money after the French and Indian War, so they taxed colonists and English people to regain what they had lost. And that is, because George Washington thought it was unfair to tax the people.The colonists b) believed that this was unfair, and that only their representatives could tax them.  c)They wanted to have a representative in Parliament, too. They protested violently and peacefully, but soon it got out of hand and it led to a war....thus, the Revolutionary War! (or the American Revolution).
> -------------------------------------------------------------
> Now if the Americans could fight the British for such a thing as taxes without representative government,.... Imagine!...  how much more they could have been driven to fight for the denial of their basic human rights?
> 
> 
> -----------------------------------------------------------------




Muslims can and do serve in the Israeli government:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/364746/arabs-are-prominent-israels-government-deroy-murdock


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## hobbs27

This video nails my point and isnt cheesy.


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## Artfuldodger

But if the US doesn't follow the beliefs of these fundamental Christians the moral fabric of our nation will deteriorate.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> But if the US doesn't follow the beliefs of these fundamental Christians the moral fabric of our nation will deteriorate.




Again,  I so understand the political forum here... like never before.  Art, you are awesome!


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Again,  I so understand the political forum here... like never before.  Art, you are awesome!



It is indeed an amazing journey to the light!


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## formula1

*Re:*

Ok, to everyone,  This post is in trouble because it has generally morphed into a political discussion and not a Christian or Judaism discussion.  This is not a political discussion board.  It also has a tendency toward a brother against brother attitude among Christians.  True Christians love their brothers even if they don't agree.  Just a reminder!

If you want to discuss respectfully the merits or fallacies of dispensationalism in Christianity that is fine, but be always considerate, always preferring your brother over yourself, even if you don't agree and even if you don't like them.   And don't stray from the topic! 

And be humble, knowing that God's ways are much higher than ours and we know little of His eternal purpose.  He was pleased to redeem you in Christ and make you aware of it.  Let's rejoice in knowing that plan and sharing it accordingly.

Thanks!


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## huntmore

Them mean old Christian extremists sitting around praying. To bad that isn't all the Islamic extremists aren't doing.


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## hobbs27

huntmore said:


> Them mean old Christian extremists sitting around praying. To bad that isn't all the Islamic extremists aren't doing.



I love and appreciate all those that pray. Funding for Jews to make their home in Israel and propaganda to extend borders which inflames war because of biblical interpretation is a problem. I dont fault as much the brothers that have fallen innocently into these teachings but those that are responsible are the leaders such as John Hagee. We are to question those that teach us, to discern from true teaching and false teaching. My prayers are that we all check these teachings with the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.


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## huntmore

hobbs27 said:


> I love and appreciate all those that pray. Funding for Jews to make their home in Israel and propaganda to extend borders which inflames war because of biblical interpretation is a problem. I dont fault as much the brothers that have fallen innocently into these teachings but those that are responsible are the leaders such as John Hagee. We are to question those that teach us, to discern from true teaching and false teaching. My prayers are that we all check these teachings with the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.



I think you may be in need of some discerning. Muslims kill Jews because they are Jews.  
Muslims didn't kidnap 90 Christian children for any other reason than they are Christian. It has nothing to do with any border dispute. To think other wise is simple foolish.


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## hobbs27

huntmore said:


> I think you may be in need of some discerning. Muslims kill Jews because they are Jews.
> Muslims didn't kidnap 90 Christian children for any other reason than they are Christian. It has nothing to do with any border dispute. To think other wise is simple foolish.



 I dont think you understand the point behind this. Its not the Jews or the Muslims, it's about our own {Christians} and how they are involved in this as radicals. We all sit back and wonder why moderate Muslims wont call out the radicals involved in these terroristic acts. If radicals truly are the minority in Islam they have redefined Islam. If we sit back as Christians these people will redefine Christianity.

 One little known fact by Americans is that Muslim radicals are fundementalist. They interpret prophecy just as our fundementalist do, and they actually think they are fulfilling endtime prophecy..but so do dispensationalist.

 This video shows better than I can communicate the point Im trying to make, if there is any corrections in my discernment , point out in this video what is wrong, and I will check up. Thanks


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


>



I did not watch the video.  At twenty-eight minutes, it is about twenty-six minutes past my limit on Youtube videos.

However, I did skim through it and noticed that "Irving Wesley Hall" gets quite a lot of face time.  (He's the executive producer.)  I had never heard of him, so Mr. Google and I checked him out.  He's just another left-wing loon who hates Israel:

"Radical retired history college professor Irving Wesley Hall, who’s been angrily demonstrating in the streets since the 1950’s, excited the Baptist event with his searing denunciation of Israel.  “Now the Israelis are the Nazis and the Palestinians are Jews,” he carefully explained.  Hall was protesting the House Un-American Activities Committee more than 50 years ago and boasts of personal confrontations with Ronald Reagan and William Buckley during the 1960’s.  More recently he’s been denouncing the Tea Party.  Of course, he’s also a 9-11 “truther” who thinks the Bush Administration exploded the World Trade Center."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2011/mark-d-tooley/baptist-pacifists-trash-israel/

More on him here:

http://notinkansas.us/author.html


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> I did not watch the video.



 Ok , I'll wait for you to make a valid point then.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Ok , I'll wait for you to make a valid point then.



Pointing out that the producer of the video has an agenda is a very valid point.


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## huntmore

hobbs27 said:


> I dont think you understand the point behind this. Its not the Jews or the Muslims, it's about our own {Christians} and how they are involved in this as radicals. We all sit back and wonder why moderate Muslims wont call out the radicals involved in these terroristic acts. If radicals truly are the minority in Islam they have redefined Islam. If we sit back as Christians these people will redefine Christianity.
> 
> One little known fact by Americans is that Muslim radicals are fundementalist. They interpret prophecy just as our fundementalist do, and they actually think they are fulfilling endtime prophecy..but so do dispensationali
> This video shows better than I can communicate the point Im trying to make, if there is any corrections in my discernment , point out in this video what is wrong, and I will check up. Thanks



I understand what you are saying. The problem is you seem to think that Hagee and his kind praying for Christians to stop being killed is as evil as ISIS beheading people, not much discerning on your part. 
Jesus said we should pray for our enemies. I don't know of any where that he says we shouldn't stop fundamentalists from killing people. Oh and please don't tell me about turn the other cheek. I really don't think Jesus would look good on you if this morning you came up on a fundamentalist cutting the head off of a little girl and you turned the other cheek instead of stopping the fundamentalist.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> Ok , I'll wait for you to make a valid point then.



Do you get the feeling that you are talking to the hand or the wall?  Carl Rove move over! LOL 

I think anyone who want's to change radical Christians or Zionist Christians should plan for a 400 yr campaign. Serious.

There are  so many who would be quick to bring goats to their pastures as opposed to sheep to their shepard. It took a few hundred yrs to get to this point, and it is going to take a few hundred yrs to erase this error.

But Hobbs how would one go about converting bold Zionist Christians? How would you go about it? Do you really think that hammering with a cat's-paw and crowbars at Dispensationalism would  work even in the long term? Do you think that isolating pastors such as Hagee and gettin the issues in the medias would make the point evident to his followers? What do you think that the reaction of evangelicals would be...?

What do you think?


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## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> But Hobbs how would one go about converting bold Zionist Christians? How would you go about it?



You'd have to convince them that Muslims want something other than a smoldering hole in the ground once known as "Israel".


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## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> You'd have to convince them that Muslims want something other than a smoldering hole in the ground once known as "Israel".



That can be done. Take Northern Ireland for example. It took 400yrs.... Yet there are always people who would want to wage war... even today. But it is generally agreed today by the Irish that the orange protestants,  the result of Cromwell's occupation and ethnic cleansing of Northern Ireland, deserve  a home in North Ireland--- because it is now really their home!   

 So that the "muslims" want something other than a smoldering hole once Isreal, can be shown in my view.


But also that that "jews" don't what to occupy, deport and deny Palestinians a homeland must be demonstrated.

Clarification must be made that all peoples should expect dignity and justice. The days, as it was with our recent ancestors to North America, that some people are beneath another people's respect... are over. There is no excuse.

Many Muslims t/o the world, including Palestinians directly affected, from my understanding have an issue with Zionism and yet they will say not having issues with Jews. Maybe we could start with what this means, Zionism, to them and why it is so disagreeable to them? 

I find few people willing to put on the other's shoes.

What do the Hebrew prophets say about how Isreal should do justice to it's neigbours? Scripture?


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## hobbs27

gordon 2 said:


> Do you get the feeling that you are talking to the hand or the wall?  Carl Rove move over! LOL
> 
> I think anyone who want's to change radical Christians or Zionist Christians should plan for a 400 yr campaign. Serious.
> 
> There are  so many who would be quick to bring goats to their pastures as opposed to sheep to their shepard. It took a few hundred yrs to get to this point, and it is going to take a few hundred yrs to erase this error.
> 
> But Hobbs how would one go about converting bold Zionist Christians? How would you go about it? Do you really think that hammering with a cat's-paw and crowbars at Dispensationalism would  work even in the long term? Do you think that isolating pastors such as Hagee and gettin the issues in the medias would make the point evident to his followers? What do you think that the reaction of evangelicals would be...?
> 
> What do you think?



I think the truth shall set you free! In this age as the information age, I would hope we can close that 400 years down to just a few..perhaps.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Pointing out that the producer of the video has an agenda is a very valid point.



I must disagree. If Kim Jong Un came out and said Jesus Christ is King of Kings....on that point I would agree with him, regardless of all his other falsehoods. Do we serve any purpose to our self in growing in knowledge if we totally block out someone based on their political leanings? I don't, even though I may proceed with caution, such as Hagee. I'm with him when he preaches the gospel to those that need Jesus, but I'm totally against him trying to rebuild a physical kingdom in Israel for Jews when they are in need of the spiritual kingdom built on Christ! There is no dual covenant, we all Jew and Gentile alike need Jesus as our Lord.


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## hobbs27

huntmore said:


> I understand what you are saying. The problem is you seem to think that Hagee and his kind praying for Christians to stop being killed is as evil as ISIS beheading people, not much discerning on your part.
> Jesus said we should pray for our enemies. I don't know of any where that he says we shouldn't stop fundamentalists from killing people. Oh and please don't tell me about turn the other cheek. I really don't think Jesus would look good on you if this morning you came up on a fundamentalist cutting the head off of a little girl and you turned the other cheek instead of stopping the fundamentalist.



 It's Hagee and his organization cufi sending millions of dollars to support Jewish settlement s and their reasoning behind it that needs to be addressed.

Shouldn't we be praying for peace, instead of supporting border expansion in Israel which inflames the already tense situation? I wont get into turning the other cheek, but I am reminded of this, " blessed are the peacemakers".


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## centerpin fan

gordon 2 said:


> So that the "muslims" want something other than a smoldering hole once Isreal, can be shown in my view.



_The goal of Hamas is an Islamic fundamentalist Palestinian state. Its manifesto advocates the destruction of the state of Israel, and calls for the raising of "the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine."_

http://www.cnn.com/2012/11/16/world/meast/hamas-explainer/index.html




gordon 2 said:


> But also that that "jews" don't what to occupy, deport and deny Palestinians a homeland must be demonstrated.



The Palestinians were offered a homeland in 1947.  They turned it down.  They were offered a homeland on several occasions since then.  They turned them down.  Why?  They're not interested in a homeland that has a Jewish state as a neighbor.  (See comment in blue above.)




gordon 2 said:


> What do the Hebrew prophets say about how Isreal should do justice to it's neigbours? Scripture?



First of all, many people who take your side cannot wait to make the point that Biblical Israel and modern Israel are not the same.  If that is your position, I don't see what the Hebrew prophets have to do with it.

If that is not your position, the OT has countless examples of what happened to the nations who were enemies of Israel.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> Shouldn't we be praying for peace, instead of supporting border expansion in Israel which inflames the already tense situation?



Israel's _mere existence_ inflames the already tense situation.


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## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I must disagree. If Kim Jong Un came out and said Jesus Christ is King of Kings....on that point I would agree with him ...


 
As would I, but that's not what Hall is saying.




hobbs27 said:


> Do we serve any purpose to our self in growing in knowledge if we totally block out someone based on their political leanings?



I block him out because he's in a twenty-eight minute video (and I know how it's gonna end.)  I wouldn't watch a twenty-eight minute video if it featured Kim Kardashian declaring her love for me.

Life is short.


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## hobbs27

centerpin fan said:


> Israel's _mere existence_ inflames the already tense situation.




 Yes, but Im not defending radical Islam, or Jewish  Zionists. Im pointing out an issue within Christianity and a problem we need to address, else Christianity could also be viewed as a radical religion. There's an element among us, under the guise of dispensationalism that Israel must expand its borders, and that all people proclaiming to be Jew should live within those expanded borders. This element is actively lobbying our federal govt, raising money and sending it to Israel to fund new settlers, and spreading their propaganda.

 I admitted earlier that I believe it was a huge mistake for the US to recognize Israel as a Jewish state back in 1948. It has been nothing but trouble in the region and for us since, but it's done and I dont support undoing it. I support Israel as a nation and its current borders today and I support its right to defend itself. That has nothing to do with the thread. Im just wanting to concentrate on this one issue of a Christian element that is adding fuel to the flame, instead of being the peacemakers we are commanded to be.










centerpin fan said:


> As would I, but that's not what Hall is saying.


 You don't know that...but






centerpin fan said:


> I block him out because he's in a twenty-eight minute video (and I know how it's gonna end.)  I wouldn't watch a twenty-eight minute video if it featured Kim Kardashian declaring her love for me.
> 
> Life is short.



 I respect your time and reason for not watching although I believe you would find yourself agreeing with its contents and unable to dispute its accuracy.


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## Artfuldodger

Hobbs, let me see if I understand your position or the OP and how it is related to Christianity vs politics.  
Hagee and other fundamental Christians are promoting Israel with war support from a Christian prospective. They are saying we, the US, as a Christian nation need to help God fulfill his prophesy in the middle east. This support to include the biblical prophesy of Israel to expand their borders.
We need to do this because we are Christians. He does this by having sermons, TV shows, etc. He doesn't actually tell us as Christians to kill but to pray for our leaders to kill. He is promoting war but only under the pretense of praying to God to lead us into war. Thereby releasing us from the killing and making it an act of God or God's plan. He is only planting the seed not doing the deed.
Under this pretense it is only for Christian reasons not political. He feels we need to help God "get on with it" as he is ready for Jesus to return.

Now as I understand you and just to show your difference from a political prospective, since Israel is a sovereign nation and our strategic ally, you agree we should support them if they stay within their current borders. 

By bringing radical fundamental Christian ideals into the middle east people will compare Christianity with radical Muslim ideals.

Does that sum up your OP and how or why you placed it in a religious forum vs a political fourm?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, let me see if I understand your position or the OP and how it is related to Christianity vs politics.
> Hagee and other fundamental Christians are promoting Israel with war support from a Christian prospective. They are saying we, the US, as a Christian nation need to help God fulfill his prophesy in the middle east. This support to include the biblical prophesy of Israel to expand their borders.
> We need to do this because we are Christians. He does this by having sermons, TV shows, etc. He doesn't actually tell us as Christians to kill but to pray for our leaders to kill. He is promoting war but only under the pretense of praying to God to lead us into war. Thereby releasing us from the killing and making it an act of God or God's plan. He is only planting the seed not doing the deed.
> Under this pretense it is only for Christian reasons not political. He feels we need to help God "get on with it" as he is ready for Jesus to return.
> 
> Now as I understand you and just to show your difference from a political prospective, since Israel is a sovereign nation and our strategic ally, you agree we should support them if they stay within their current borders.
> 
> By bringing radical fundamental Christian ideals into the middle east people will compare Christianity with radical Muslim ideals.
> 
> Does that sum up your OP and how or why you placed it in a religious forum vs a political fourm?



Pretty close Art. I also had the thought of moderate muslims standing silent as the radicals commit atrocities. How could they do that? But moderate Christians are also standing by silently as the radicals raise money, lobby govt, and spread propaganda to increase the borders of Israel and to send all the jews to Israel...All this is based on bad bible interpretation......yet we sit by silently because they are Christian brothers and its better to side with them than muslims??? 
 See why moderate muslims may be silent, and how we are doing the same?


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## gemcgrew

formula1 said:


> And be humble, knowing that God's ways are much higher than ours and we know little of His eternal purpose.  He was pleased to redeem you in Christ and make you aware of it.  Let's rejoice in knowing that plan and sharing it accordingly.
> 
> Thanks!


I think that is much more than a "little"!


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## huntmore

hobbs27 said:


> It's Hagee and his organization cufi sending millions of dollars to support Jewish settlement s and their reasoning behind it that needs to be addressed.
> 
> Shouldn't we be praying for peace, instead of supporting border expansion in Israel which inflames the already tense situation? I wont get into turning the other cheek, but I am reminded of this, " blessed are the peacemakers".



I didn't think you would touch the turn the other cheek. It's throws a wrench into the mix.

 Their reason is pretty straight forward. Doesn't it say in the Bible somewhere the Jews are Gods chosen people?


Sticking you head in the sand about why and what the muslims are doing isn't going to help the little Christian girls being kidnaped, raped and sold into slavery. If you think it is from a border dispute I still say your discernment skills are lacking. Your words "expansion in Israel which inflames an already tense situation" seem to suggest it isn't about land, already inflamed by what, being Jewish.

Just who are the peacemakers. Muslims want capitulation not peace. So you go right ahead and denounce Christ become a muslim because that is what they want. I wouldn't want you to do a crazy thing like that but that is what a peacemaker would have to do in this case.


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## Artfuldodger

What is our role as Christians in matters like this? What Christian values do we use in matters like this? 
Do we turn the other cheek? Do we fight for God?
Do we present liberal Christian ideals or fundamental ideals? 

How do we separate our religious beliefs in political and government matters? Do we fight for our country or do we fight for our God? Is fighting for God always propaganda? 

If we choose to add fundamental Christian beliefs in our governments decisions, which group do we align with? 
A liberal denomination or a hardcore denomination?
Are we willing to put aside our individual beliefs for the majority's beliefs. Meaning if 75% of Christians are liberal in Christian views and 25% of Christians are fundamental in Christian views. 

I actually believe my liberal Christian views are fundamental and the so called fundamental Christian views are radical.

I'm conservative in my political views but liberal or contemporary in my Christian views. I don't believe many people would want me to use my Christianity in government. I'd be more like Jimmy Carter. 
I prefer to use my conservative political views in government. Actually this is the thought process of the Christians in the Political Forum so I'm in good company.


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## formula1

gemcgrew said:


> I think that is much more than a "little"!



God bless! Little in the first sentence doesn't describe the greatness of the 2nd!


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## gordon 2

formula1 said:


> God bless! Little in the first sentence doesn't describe the greatness of the 2nd!



To be reconciled to God is in fact no little thing. Yet being reconciled to a living God and one's self in fact being alive in Christ, perhaps being humble is to say... He has made known in many ways and plainly by his word and his works His eternal purpose.

Having crossed  over in Christ, He is not now something we have heard about, He is. And when  He, when He! preaches on Justice all the Heavens shake for His real voice, known by the spirit of His son our Christ, is not void of His purpose..

Brothers and sisters we know right from wrong...not for fear...but for knowing who willed to free the oppressed from their blindness and how Christ, our Christ came to sit with sinners... with us--men of perverse minds.


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## Artfuldodger

huntmore said:


> Their reason is pretty straight forward. Doesn't it say in the Bible somewhere the Jews are Gods chosen people?



The Jews were chosen for failure to grant salvation to the Gentiles. This was the great mystery finally revealed.

But for the sake of argument, if they were God's chosen race, does God need us to intervene?
Do they get special treatment from the US because of their "chosen" status? 
How do we know the individuals in Israel are Tribal Jews?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How do we know the individuals in Israel are Tribal Jews?



We don't and neither do they.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> We don't and neither do they.



And for that reason I'll leave prophesy fulfillment up to God.
Another way of putting it, God hasn't asked me scripturally to help him fulfill his prophesy of Israel.

God's will definitely will be done.


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## gordon 2

hobbs27 said:


> I think the truth shall set you free! In this age as the information age, I would hope we can close that 400 years down to just a few..perhaps.



Hobbs, if it is the truth that shall set you free and truth is the word of God then people(s) would have been freed a long time ago.

Truth is all kinds of things since the Tower of Babel. The only armor you got is the word? But those you have issues with also claim His word.

I don't know how you plan to counter the ideologies you have issues with?

This great man used the word with great organization, yet, to my estimate, he was very much tied to his world personally and his ministering today can seem passe. Yet where he uses the word concerning the Land of Canaan, Israel and the Jews ( Hebrews) and how God deals with them as told in scripture is important to the spiritual discussion here, I think.

The discussion is complex, because the issues are complex especially that they span the ages and touch each and everyone's  individual spiritual life.

This Utube vid is an hour long. Much too long for some. Nevertheless I submit it to your consideration. It is about Israel of the days gone by, which to my view gets mixed up in how we look at the middle east today. Hope this is useful.


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## hobbs27

Gordon, I think he did a good job explaining the relationship between man and God. I heard a little about comparing those times to today, but it didnt seem as he was sticking to the dual covenant theology that dispensationalist hold to.

 Here's you 2 80+ min videos to enjoy that answers all the questions you may have on the land promise to Israel.. This should keep you busy while im gone for the weekend, but ill check in from time to time.

 <p>Don K. Preston-Part 1-The Land Promises to Israel-Fulfilled or Unfulfilled from michael j loomis on Vimeo.</p>

 <p>Don K. Preston-Part 2-The Land Promises to Israel-Fulfilled or Unfulfilled from michael j loomis on Vimeo.</p>


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## EverGreen1231

hobbs27 said:


> Here's an example of radical extremist inside our own faith of Christianity. It is rooted from a bad interpretation of the bible known as dispensationalism.. Shouldnt we be responsible for shutting it down, or should we stand by and watch it fester as Muslims have?
> 
> 
> 
> Here is Hagees' twin ideology from the other side.
> 
> http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/89739/Caliphate



So he asks for war against the enemies of righteousness and you want to couple him with ISIS? That seems ignorant. Have you read Psalms? If you want to be in an uproar about this sort of thing you should be trying to separate Psalms from the cannon of scripture.


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## hobbs27

EverGreen1231 said:


> So he asks for war against the enemies of righteousness and you want to couple him with ISIS? That seems ignorant. Have you read Psalms? If you want to be in an uproar about this sort of thing you should be trying to separate Psalms from the cannon of scripture.



I'm sorry that you read through this thread and came away thinking this. I do struggle communicating my thoughts accurately, so forgive me, please.

 I'll attempt to explain it better. I am not in an uproar with my fellow brothers. If I am in an uproar at all it is over false teaching. 

John Hagee is a false teacher, we know this because he teaches dual covenants, and the bible clearly states the only way to the Father is through the Son.

 The relation of Hagee and ISIS is through their ideology, not actions...although that is debatable. They both interpret scripture in a similar way. I believe if you watch the video I posted in #49 you will get a much better understanding of my point.

 Thank you for your straight forwardness, that's the kind of language I'm used to.


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## gemcgrew

hobbs27 said:


> I do struggle communicating my thoughts accurately, so forgive me, please.


I think that you are communicating fine. Not everybody is at the same level of understanding.


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## EverGreen1231

hobbs27 said:


> I'm sorry that you read through this thread and came away thinking this. I do struggle communicating my thoughts accurately, so forgive me, please.



I read with no small amount of disinterest at times. Some days I just read these posts when I don't have the gumption to start a new book; or sometimes while I'm waiting for a program to run. To say that don't engage in close readings on this forum would be an understatement.



hobbs27 said:


> If I am in an uproar at all it is over false teaching.



As well you should be.



hobbs27 said:


> John Hagee is a false teacher, we know this because he teaches dual covenants, and the bible clearly states the only way to the Father is through the Son.



I'm not an expert on his theology, I was simply responding to his prayer in the video. A Christian should deeply desire the destruction of all evil in any form it may appear. Those who hate Jesus love Death. 

Also, just so we're clear, there are two covenants: The old, and the new. This is clear in scripture.



hobbs27 said:


> The relation of Hagee and ISIS is through their ideology, not actions...although that is debatable. They both interpret scripture in a similar way. I believe if you watch the video I posted in #49 you will get a much better understanding of my point.



The commentator needs to read his Bible more often if that is what he calls "scriptural."

ISIS and John Hagee are precisely the same ideologically; the main difference being one serving the faultless purpose of God, the other serving the will and order of Satan. One is right, the other is wrong. 

All prophecy was fulfilled 1982 years ago, we are at the door of the last days. Nothing else can be done to speed it or slow it down. Hagee was praying, ultimately, for peace to come to the Israelites, as we are commanded to do. 



hobbs27 said:


> Thank you for your straight forwardness, that's the kind of language I'm used to.



Yes, however at times that can come across and crass and not as nuanced as a good post should be; if this is the case, please forgive me.
If I can't express a thought succinctly so that everyone can understand, I don't express it until I can. Now that doesn't mean that I don't get wordy form time-to-time, but I try to keep it at a minimum.


----------



## hobbs27

EverGreen1231 said:


> I read with no small amount of disinterest at times. Some days I just read these posts when I don't have the gumption to start a new book; or sometimes while I'm waiting for a program to run. To say that don't engage in close readings on this forum would be an understatement.



 We learn from each other here, and it's a good place to challenge your thoughts and ideas on scripture. I love learning from people even when I disagree with them.






EverGreen1231 said:


> Also, just so we're clear, there are two covenants: The old, and the new. This is clear in scripture.



 The old has passed, there is no longer Jew or Gentile and the only way to the Father is through the Son.





EverGreen1231 said:


> ISIS and John Hagee are precisely the same ideologically; the main difference being one serving the faultless purpose of God, the other serving the will and order of Satan. One is right, the other is wrong.



They are both wrong, One serves Israel over all things, the other serves Islam over all things.



EverGreen1231 said:


> All prophecy was fulfilled 1982 years ago,


 My heart skipped a beat when I first read this, although I would say it all was fulfilled 1,945 years ago at the destruction of the temple. I was so happy to hear someone else say all prophecy was fulfilled...then you contradicted yourself here:


EverGreen1231 said:


> we are at the door of the last days.


 






EverGreen1231 said:


> Yes, however at times that can come across and crass and not as nuanced as a good post should be; if this is the case, please forgive me.
> If I can't express a thought succinctly so that everyone can understand, I don't express it until I can. Now that doesn't mean that I don't get wordy form time-to-time, but I try to keep it at a minimum.



 Im in the same boat, Ive even gone back and read some of my posts that I meant to be in a friendly way and think, man..that sounds rude although that was not my intention..."most of the time".  You will never offend me or make me angry, the last time I was angry at anyone was 2005, so never worry about being overly polite, just tell me how you see it.  Thanks


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> I think that you are communicating fine. Not everybody is at the same level of understanding.



Thanks.


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## EverGreen1231

hobbs27 said:


> My heart skipped a beat when I first read this, although I would say it all was fulfilled 1,945 years ago at the destruction of the temple. I was so happy to hear someone else say all prophecy was fulfilled...then you contradicted yourself here:



Sorry about that, I misspoke. I meant tribulation. I usually catch those sort of mistakes before I post, but sometimes I over-look things


----------

