# Upon what do you base your beliefs?



## Denton (Feb 13, 2014)

Aside from the bible and church, upon what sources do you base your beliefs? 

I ask because in another thread, a fellow commentator stated that "this forum isn't the proper place for [anyone] to decide if they should believe/accept Christianity or not." 

He stated that "commentators on this forum aren't smart enough for you to base new or future beliefs upon."

So, do you agree or disagree about the forum/place? Do you base your beliefs on what is discussed here?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 13, 2014)

Denton said:


> So, do you agree or disagree about the forum/place? Do you base your beliefs on what is discussed here?



Absolutely not.


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## Big7 (Feb 13, 2014)

Father, Son and Holy Sprit.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 14, 2014)

Perhaps I'm one of those rare and odd people who enter into a discussion with an open mind.  I welcome opinions from as many sources as possible and honestly weigh those opinions.  Sometimes I hear something that changes my perspective, if even slightly.

I realize that there are Christians who enter discussions with a closed mind, unwilling to honestly consider any opposing opinion the other person offers.  But I'd wager a guess that those same Christians want an open mind from the people they are witnessing to.


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## barryl (Feb 14, 2014)

John 17:17 KJV AV "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth." After all the Holy Spirit is the author


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 14, 2014)

I often try to post my topics in the AAA, apologetics in mind. I find the different views interesting. Even more interesting is the open mindness of the unreligious feedback. As a religious person, I find that only through their feedback can deprogram myself from years of traditional religious assumptions. I wish to be free of all assumptions. It has been a real eye opener for me, thinking I have an open mind, to see just how much bagage we carry. Preconceived traditional thinking is very powerful. I often use the AAA forum as a sounding board as I ponder something, like a think tank. And often, I bring up issues that are not suitable for the new believer. Apologetics is not for everyone. It requires that you learn both sides of the argument. Just saying "it ain't so" is not apologetics.  So, with this being said, I understand why someone would say that the AAA forum was not a good place for someone to observe and decide what he believes.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 14, 2014)

Denton said:


> Aside from the bible and church, upon what sources do you base your beliefs?
> 
> I ask because in another thread, a fellow commentator stated that "this forum isn't the proper place for [anyone] to decide if they should believe/accept Christianity or not."
> 
> ...



Sources: Parents and smart disciplined reason on the study of man.

Beliefs on what is discussed here? More than not the topics here make folk study...sources and different points of views. And yes, beliefs are shaped in part by what is said here.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 14, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I often try to post my topics in the AAA, apologetics in mind. I find the different views interesting. Even more interesting is the open mindness of the unreligious feedback. As a religious person, I find that only through their feedback can deprogram myself from years of traditional religious assumptions. I wish to be free of all assumptions. It has been a real eye opener for me, thinking I have an open mind, to see just how much bagage we carry. Preconceived traditional thinking is very powerful. I often use the AAA forum as a sounding board as I ponder something, like a think tank. And often, I bring up issues that are not suitable for the new believer. Apologetics is not for everyone. It requires that you learn both sides of the argument. Just saying "it ain't so" is not apologetics.  So, with this being said, I understand why someone would say that the AAA forum was not a good place for someone to observe and decide what he believes.



I find that in the AAA forum often folk are not really interested in beliefs either way. They are interested in "How your mind works." Some are so committed to their outlook that they are specialist in that sport. They are deeply involved in a dialectic that really does not care to resolve differences, but only to poke at them, like cats do with half dead mice and snakes. Personally I'm allergic to the mites on cats( you know the kind that feed on human skin)--so it is a real sacrifice to go and get close to them....


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## WaltL1 (Feb 14, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> I find that in the AAA forum often folk are not really interested in beliefs either way. They are interested in "How your mind works." Some are so committed to their outlook that they are specialist in that sport. They are deeply involved in a dialectic that really does not care to resolve differences, but only to poke at them, like cats do with half dead mice and snakes. Personally I'm allergic to the mites on cats( you know the kind that feed on human skin)--so it is a real sacrifice to go and get close to them....





> I find that in the AAA forum often folk are not really interested in beliefs either way.





> They are interested in "How your mind works


I guess I could be classified as one of those "how your mind works" people. But I think what you may be dismissing is that how your mind works is the basis of your beliefs. We are talking about a God here not rebuilding a Chevy. How your mind works has a direct impact on what, how and why you believe. So it doesn't have to be a "game" that's being played it can actually lead to a better understanding of believers and nonbelievers. That's very different than considering you a play toy.


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## Israel (Feb 14, 2014)

I believe my beliefs are based upon what I have experienced to be valid to me.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

Yes, my attention was grabbed as the barrel came out of my mouth.  "See, I've always loved you" -- was the last thing I had on my mind.  Now it is the first and best thing.

When you see a deadman walking...and he starts to grin and sing and talk about love -- a love that covers the OP, Hawg and all -- the transformation is curious.

Such is my imperfect but sincere belief that Jesus is Lord and thankfully Savior.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2014)

This forum is a great place to discuss Christian and spiritual matter.  And here it can be done semi-anonymously.  We've all occasionally come across a stirring remark or comment that touched us.
Or a sentence that brought clarity to a subject that we had never thought of before.
But there's an awful lot of confusion here.  And that being the case, it isn't a place to form convictions.

Christians are always best served when they verify every thought with God's word.  This isn't a "majority wins" contest.  Or a "winner take all" quiz.

And certainly not a place that many of us want to waste much time with mockers.
.


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## formula1 (Feb 15, 2014)

*re:*

My beliefs do not come from this forum at all. They come from a combination of Scriptures, the witness if the Holy Spirit in my own spirit, and experience. 

I contend only this, that Christ Jesus died for all so that we might have hope in life with our heavenly Father. He is my only hope!


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## centerpin fan (Feb 15, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> But there's an awful lot of confusion here.  And that being the case, it isn't a place to form convictions.



Amen to that.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> This forum is a great place to discuss Christian and spiritual matter.  And here it can be done semi-anonymously.  We've all occasionally come across a stirring remark or comment that touched us.
> Or a sentence that brought clarity to a subject that we had never thought of before.
> But there's an awful lot of confusion here.  And that being the case, it isn't a place to form convictions.
> 
> ...




I am with you, Ronnie.


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## Israel (Feb 15, 2014)

I get scared sometimes...that I might change.
And then...it happens.


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## panfried0419 (Feb 15, 2014)

I just laugh at the holier than now folks who use scripture as a weapon to ridicule judge and not as a tool to teach and to save. Just can't imagine the real life they live away from the keyboard.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 15, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> But there's an awful lot of confusion here.  And that being the case, it isn't a place to form convictions.





centerpin fan said:


> Amen to that.



Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Why does that not apply to this forum?


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

Denton said:


> Aside from the bible and church, upon what sources do you base your beliefs?
> 
> I ask because in another thread, a fellow commentator stated that "this forum isn't the proper place for [anyone] to decide if they should believe/accept Christianity or not."
> 
> ...




You indeed are not the Messiah. Nor are you a competent source for others to 
rely upon to form beliefs of eternal consequence.   Only a fool chooses to doubt eternal beliefs based on answers he gets from you.  

In these ways, you are no different from me or the rest of the others who show up here.  Thus corporately this forum is home to a bunch of incompetent sources of knowledge and opinion such that only a fool would ask us questions and then suffer doubt based on answers he sought in the first place.

If that were not the case, the current federal government or trial lawyers would require us to put labels on our posts:


Warning.  Closed track.  Professionals only. Don't try this at home.  You could lose your soul based upon something Denton says.  He is not the Messiah and is incompetent as a source of knowledge for civilians to rely upon.  And please check your tire pressure, thermostats and turn in your guns.  Or we'll make you do it.  Really.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

panfried0419 said:


> I just laugh at the holier than now folks who use scripture as a weapon to ridicule judge and not as a tool to teach and to save. Just can't imagine the real life they live away from the keyboard.



Said the paddling judge.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 15, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> You indeed are not the Messiah. Nor are you a competent source for others to
> rely upon to form beliefs of eternal consequence.   Only a fool chooses to doubt eternal beliefs based on answers he gets from you.
> 
> In these ways, you are no different from me or the rest of the others who show up here.  Thus corporately this forum is home to a bunch of incompetent sources of knowledge and opinion such that only a fool would ask us questions and then suffer doubt based on answers he sought in the first place.
> ...



Tell me again why you think people should go to church instead of just praying and studying scripture alone at home?


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Tell me again why you think people should go to church instead of just praying and studying scripture alone at home?



Hawg, you have me mixed up with somebody else. 

Or I am too old to recall discussing such with you, or anyone else. So I object to the form of your leading question, and your planned follow up commentary.

I am for studying Scripture, pro praying ... Get some.

I am pro local church, pro small group, pro discipleship and so on.  The Holy Spirit moving through a body...the sounds of joy...the sight of changed hearts...all provide confirmation in the soul.


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## Israel (Feb 15, 2014)

panfried0419 said:


> I just laugh at the holier than now folks who use scripture as a weapon to ridicule judge and not as a tool to teach and to save. Just can't imagine the real life they live away from the keyboard.




generally, mine involves less nose picking, and more clothes than just underwear.

But in many ways you're probably right, at least about me.
Tune me up, brother. Even if I try to resist, there's a hospital full of folks I work with that would probably be more easily inclined to agree with you. I don't get to edit, delete, rewrite and rephrase a lot of the junk there, like I can here.
ya got me.
I guess we'll both find out how happy that makes you.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 18:20
> For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
> 
> Why does that not apply to this forum?




I wish it did.

Placed in context, verse 20 is Christ's assurance that He is in the reconciliation 
of an unrepentant sinner to God.  Christ is divinely with His disciples who seek unity in rendering a decision as to continued fellowship with an unrepentant sinner.  We are told not to remain in such fellowship with such once these steps are taken, and the results remain unchanged.  Christ is in that, and in my view, divinely remains available to the unrepentant sinner...though he is cast out of the body.

For that to operate here, we would acknowledge the Bible as the inerrant source of all truth -- which may cause you to stroke --- and moderators would be  embued with their pastoral authorities here over us.  Many of us would wind up in time out...but confronted nevertheless with our selves and sin.  Maybe a good thing.

You will note, dear Hawg, the poignant parable of the lost sheep, Matthew 18:10-14.

"See to it that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. What do
 you think?   If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray? And if he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more 
than over the ninety-nine that never went astray. So it is not the will of my Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

This says to me that a doubter has most favored nation status with His Father in heaven, and commands love...not hate.  I have said before and do confirm, as God wills, I hope only the best for you in Christ, always.

Immediately after explaining how important the lost sheep is to our Father in Heaven, verses 15 - 20  lay out our required response  if a brother sins against us.  

The point is restoration of the brother...the lost sheep, perhaps...  It is to help a brother deal with his sin as against you.   It is not to make us right, or to manipulate worldly result, but to maintain unity and repent of sins.  A victim of sin is not told to look up from their knitting and yell "Guillotine! Guillotine!". Nor is he to passively ignore a brother who sins against him, either.

The process is private confrontation, which ends it if the other apologizes and repents.  If not, the next step is to take the matter before two or three witnesses.  Again, if the sinner apologizes and repents, it is over and he is reconciled to God through Christ.  If he again refuses to listen, the sinner is to be taken before the body.  If he still will not listen, then be is to be expelled.  

Christ is saying He is divinely in that process, with the two or three brothers who seek unity and decide, and with the church in its wisdom.  

Litigation, including based on claims for defamation and infliction of emotional distress, have chilled exercise of the third step, in my humble opinion.  

In any event, that's how I see v. 20. But I ain't the One...nor am I competent to say anything.  My view is worth its price charged here...nothing at all.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 15, 2014)

panfried0419 said:


> I just laugh at the holier than now folks who use scripture as a weapon to ridicule judge and not as a tool to teach and to save. Just can't imagine the real life they live away from the keyboard.


Ha! Clean up on aisle #17 please. Somebody broke a jar of hypocrisy.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 15, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Thus corporately this forum is home to a bunch of incompetent sources of knowledge and opinion such that only a fool would ask us questions and then suffer doubt based on answers he sought in the first place.



There are many pastors on this forum.  Are their words credible only when spoken inside the walls of a church?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> There are many pastors on this forum.  Are their words credible only when spoken inside the walls of a church?



Their words are to be judged just as anyone elses. Inside and outside the church, the spirit reveals truth.


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## Israel (Feb 15, 2014)

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

Maybe we have more to do with that perspective than we imagine...


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## centerpin fan (Feb 15, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Said the paddling judge.





gemcgrew said:


> Ha! Clean up on aisle #17 please. Somebody broke a jar of hypocrisy.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2014)

I believe that the athiest enjoy the conversation, interested because they have went through a crisis of faith, searching, learning and came out on the other side than I did. And whether interested in what I believe or just pointing out "what about this", I have found them to be respectful of my beliefs. When someone disrespects them, this does not count against them if they return fire. But I have noticed and would like to point out that these guys never enter the prayer forum. They could easily question in this area but do not. This is  respectful on their part.


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## panfried0419 (Feb 15, 2014)

So those that quoted me live a sinless life? No sin whatsoever?  Total holy spiritual non-tarnished life? I base my life on the word of god and what I have been taught. I am just referencing the few that mispost scripture


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## panfried0419 (Feb 15, 2014)

It's also hard struggling with my faith. Not because I distrust Christianity but because you read and hear so much I get confused on which way is up. That's why we are searching for a new church and possible step out of Protestantism. I have actually taken some of centerpins advise and began to search outside the box.


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## gemcgrew (Feb 15, 2014)

panfried0419 said:


> It's also hard struggling with my faith. Not because I distrust Christianity but because you read and hear so much I get confused on which way is up. That's why we are searching for a new church and possible step out of Protestantism. I have actually taken some of centerpins advise and began to search outside the box.


I understand. Things become much clearer when one is given to affix their eyes upon Christ. I am Baptist but I am not protestant.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Matthew 18:20
> For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
> 
> Why does that not apply to this forum?



I would expect that it does apply to this forum...... but it doesn't mean God is satisfied and happy with what you believe and share.......  or me.
.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 15, 2014)

I actually believe the bible addresses the issue. It says don't cause those weak in the faith to stumble. I think it is referring to what we do, specifically eating food sacrificed to idols, but how much more our words. But on the other hand, apolgetics is important. But I don't think God requires that I cover for him. The bible is what it is. He could have made it short and sweet, clear as crystal. But instead, 1000 different doctrines come from the same book. That is so without any influence from me.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

panfried0419 said:


> So those that quoted me live a sinless life? No sin whatsoever?  Total holy spiritual non-tarnished life? I base my life on the word of god and what I have been taught. I am just referencing the few that mispost scripture



No, I must confess...no.  I sin.  I am tarnished, barnacled, scarred up, broken clay. Blessings on your head, Panfried.


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## Israel (Feb 15, 2014)

Battle with the hypocrites is a heady game.
But what, and if, all are speaking precisely what the Lord would have, except me?
Then, fighting hypocrites is not as much fun, and ricochets can put an eye out.
In the land of the blind...it's true, the one eyed man is king.
But in the land of the sighted, a one eyed man has no depth perception.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

A game of solitaire, this battle?


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> There are many pastors on this forum.  Are their words credible only when spoken inside the walls of a church?



Credibility: No pastor tells us to kneel before the Lord, then quote him and it will all be OK.

Pastors do not preach that it is the blood of the pastor that reconciles us to God while we remain in our sin.  Pastors do not say, believe unto me and receive eternal life.  No pastor willingly ransomed his life for the sins of the world, save the One.

Only a fool asks a question of anyone here, and lets the answer separate himself from Christ...because of doubt.  And I mean that in the most positive way possible.  Peace.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 15, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Credibility: No pastor tells us to kneel before the Lord, then quote him and it will all be OK.
> 
> Pastors do not preach that it is the blood of the pastor that reconciles us to God while we remain in our sin.  Pastors do not say, believe unto me and receive eternal life.  No pastor willingly ransomed his life for the sins of the world, save the One.
> 
> Only a fool asks a question of anyone here, and lets the answer separate himself from Christ...because of doubt.  And I mean that in the most positive way possible.  Peace.



Listening to a pastor's interpretation of scripture from the pulpit is fine but reading the same thing from the pastor on this forum is not?  I'm fairly certain I never mistakenly viewed any pastor as the messiah.


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## BT Charlie (Feb 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Listening to a pastor's interpretation of scripture from the pulpit is fine but reading the same thing from the pastor on this forum is not?  I'm fairly certain I never mistakenly viewed any pastor as the messiah.



This thread is an indirect result of your comment, to the effect that statements of others on this forum that you read were leading you from Christianity.  Not to figuratively smack you with too big of board, if you would listen to the Messiah none of this would be happening.


You did not say originally that pastors' statements were the root problem  now leading you away.   Is that your contention now? Pastors = doubt? Or are pastors merely a handy straw man?

I see no credible reason for you to justify your doubt of God, because someone else did [insert something wrong 
here].  Please doubt responsibly; own it as your personal invention and be fully accountable for it.  

The woman you gave me handed me the fruit. The serpent deceived me.  The pastor said on a message board... .


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## Israel (Feb 16, 2014)

"Doubt responsibly"...!!!!

Amen.


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## panfried0419 (Feb 16, 2014)

Israel said:


> "Doubt responsibly"...!!!!
> 
> Amen.



Amen


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## HawgJawl (Feb 17, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> This thread is an indirect result of your comment, to the effect that statements of others on this forum that you read were leading you from Christianity.  Not to figuratively smack you with too big of board, if you would listen to the Messiah none of this would be happening.



I've been asking God and Jesus for answers for most of my life.  I cannot in all honestly tell the difference between a message placed in my head from God and a message I created in my head.  I think we can all find many examples of people believing that God has told them to do something, and many of those "messages" are not consistent with scripture.

If Jesus speaks clearly to you, perhaps you could do us all the favor of asking Him which denominations have it wrong.


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## Israel (Feb 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I've been asking God and Jesus for answers for most of my life.  I cannot in all honestly tell the difference between a message placed in my head from God and a message I created in my head.  I think we can all find many examples of people believing that God has told them to do something, and many of those "messages" are not consistent with scripture.
> 
> If Jesus speaks clearly to you, perhaps you could do us all the favor of asking Him which denominations have it wrong.


Wisdom is justified of her children.

Working on a need to know basis seems restrictive...when in fact it's all the liberty there is.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 17, 2014)

Denton said:


> Aside from the bible and church, upon what sources do you base your beliefs



The HOLY SPIRIT'S personal testimony to my very SOUL that Christ is exactly who He said He is; The Way, The Truth, and The Life.  I accepted that testimony, and it sealed my soul forever and ever.  Hallelujah and Amen!


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## HawgJawl (Feb 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The HOLY SPIRIT'S personal testimony to my very SOUL that Christ is exactly who He said He is; The Way, The Truth, and The Life.  I accepted that testimony, and it sealed my soul forever and ever.  Hallelujah and Amen!



Do you believe that the Holy Spirit helps you accurately interpret scripture?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 17, 2014)

There have been a few questions regarding my comment that information from this forum has led me further from Christianity.  Let me first clarify that I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church and have studied the Bible and other resources most of my life, so my basic understanding of Christianity did not come from this forum.  Over the years my faith has diminished and I have developed doubt in numerous areas of Christianity.  This occurred prior to visiting this forum.

On this forum, I present many of these areas of doubt, hoping for a fresh perspective I have not considered or a new explanation that works.  I often find that the explanation for issue (A) seems to make sense, and the explanation for issue (B) seems to make sense, but when viewed together, (A) and (B) contradict each other.  When I present this contradiction, it usually provokes a response that I am off topic, or throwing out a red herring or a straw man (even though I didn’t create the straw man), or it is ignored.  This response adds credibility to my doubt.  The inability to provide a logical explanation has a greater effect on my belief that receiving five different explanations that make no sense.

I often hear that this one issue is too insignificant to warrant doubt.  There is not just one issue.  There are many small issues that accumulate into a pile too huge to ignore.  

A few things I see on this forum which tend to reinforce my doubt:

The view that nothing exists that God did not create, but God did not create wickedness and sin.

The view that God is intimately involved in every aspect of my life, but in no way associated with anything bad that happens to me.

The view that God still performs miracles every day, but no longer performs the type of miracles Jesus and the disciples performed.

The view that God miraculously intervenes in the lives of Christians but avoids all the areas that can be measured and compared.

The view that the blessings and curses promised in scripture no longer exist.

The view that God is somehow unable to effectively communicate with His creation.

The view that God will answer prayer as long as that prayer is not for an accurate interpretation of scripture.

The view that God has only one truth, one message, but there is no one denomination which expresses that one message.

The view that the Bible is God’s “attempt” to communicate with man, but it includes things that are not relevant to us or that we cannot understand.

The view that the Bible is inerrant, while blaming certain errors on man.

The view that God would ever condone or need a man to kill another man for Him.

The view that the God of the Old Testament is consistent with the teachings of Jesus.

The view that one scripture that seems to support your assertion overrides ten that seem to oppose your assertion, all the while maintaining that no scriptures contradict each other.

These are just off the top of my head.  There are many more.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> A few things I see on this forum which tend to reinforce my doubt:
> 
> The view that nothing exists that God did not create, but God did not create wickedness and sin.
> 
> ...




I'm a pretty optimistic guy, but my first thought on reading this is that you'll never get a satisfactory response to any of that from this board.  You may not get a satisfactory response, regardless of where you look.

Sorry to be such a Debbie Downer.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that the Holy Spirit helps you accurately interpret scripture?



No. I believe literacy does that.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No. I believe literacy does that.



I've often wondered how much of our literacy, IQ, reasoning, and stuff like that matters in our salvation or at least in our Bible understanding. 
I believe God understands our abilities and indoctrinations and won't hold that against us if we get it wrong.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The HOLY SPIRIT'S personal testimony to my very SOUL that Christ is exactly who He said He is; The Way, The Truth, and The Life.  I accepted that testimony, and it sealed my soul forever and ever.  Hallelujah and Amen!





HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that the Holy Spirit helps you accurately interpret scripture?





SemperFiDawg said:


> No. I believe literacy does that.



Then what did you mean by the first statement?  You capitalized the HOLY SPIRIT.  What role does it play in determining what you base your beliefs upon?


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## hawglips (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that the Holy Spirit helps you accurately interpret scripture?



I believe that studying and pondering the scriptures are means whereby the Holy Spirit can reveal things to you.   Sometimes that may involve accurate interpretation; sometimes it may be something else that pertains to a specific problem or something else I needed that isn't directly related to what the author of the particular scripture had in mind when he wrote it.

I believe that sometimes "literacy" gets in the way of that revelation, because sometimes when we are learned, we think we are wise, and we rely less on the Holy Spirit than we should.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

hawglips said:


> I believe that studying and pondering the scriptures are means whereby the Holy Spirit can reveal things to you.   Sometimes that may involve accurate interpretation; sometimes it may be something else that pertains to a specific problem or something else I needed that isn't directly related to what the author of the particular scripture had in mind when he wrote it.
> 
> I believe that sometimes "literacy" gets in the way of that revelation, because sometimes when we are learned, we think we are wise, and we rely less on the Holy Spirit than we should.



So your answer is yes, no, maybe?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> There have been a few questions regarding my comment that information from this forum has led me further from Christianity.  Let me first clarify that I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church and have studied the Bible and other resources most of my life, so my basic understanding of Christianity did not come from this forum.  Over the years my faith has diminished and I have developed doubt in numerous areas of Christianity.  This occurred prior to visiting this forum.
> 
> On this forum, I present many of these areas of doubt, hoping for a fresh perspective I have not considered or a new explanation that works.  I often find that the explanation for issue (A) seems to make sense, and the explanation for issue (B) seems to make sense, but when viewed together, (A) and (B) contradict each other.  When I present this contradiction, it usually provokes a response that I am off topic, or throwing out a red herring or a straw man (even though I didn’t create the straw man), or it is ignored.  This response adds credibility to my doubt.  The inability to provide a logical explanation has a greater effect on my belief that receiving five different explanations that make no sense.
> 
> ...



Hawg  Your doubt may be in part intellectual, but it's a heart issue at its core.  The head follows the heart or the will (if you wish).  If you are truly struggling with your faith may I suggest you come fully clean with God regarding where your heart issue?  The AAA forum is full of people who won't believe no what evidence God could/would/or has provided.  It's a heart/will issue.  If you want reasons to doubt you will find them.  If you want reasons to believe you will find them.  What do you WANT?
Talk to God about it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Then what did you mean by the first statement?  You capitalized the HOLY SPIRIT.  What role does it play in determining what you base your beliefs upon?



Two answers to two separate questions.  

Just as I said in my first post.  The HS gave me a personal testimony that Christ was exactly who he said he is in the Bible.  The message comes by hearing or reading.  The confirmation comes by the HS.  Two separate questions.  Two answers.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Two answers to two separate questions.
> 
> Just as I said in my first post.  The HS gave me a personal testimony that Christ was exactly who he said he is in the Bible.  The message comes by hearing or reading.  The confirmation comes by the HS.  Two separate questions.  Two answers.



How does a person know when the Holy Spirit is confirming that their understanding of scripture is correct?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Talk to God about it.



I've been talking to God all my life.  See post #44.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> How does a person know when the Holy Spirit is confirming that their understanding of scripture is correct?



Hawg.  I've have no desire to play "catch me if you can" with you.  I gave you an honest answer to your question.   You're smart enough to understand it, yet I suspect it contradicts your pretenses which have become all too obvious.  You don't strike me as a backsliding believer so much as a skeptical atheist whose only purpose here is to plant doubts in the hearts of believers.  The questions you ask aren't those of one earnestly seeking God, but of one seeking to disprove Him.  "Did God really say...? ".   We've heard that one somewhere before.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hawg.  I've have no desire to play "catch me if you can" with you.  I gave you an honest answer to your question.   You're smart enough to understand it, yet I suspect it contradicts your pretenses which have become all too obvious.  You don't strike me as a backsliding believer so much as a skeptical atheist whose only purpose here is to plant doubts in the hearts of believers.  The questions you ask aren't those of one earnestly seeking God, but of one seeking to disprove Him.  "Did God really say...? ".   We've heard that one somewhere before.




I'm repeatedly told that I must simply believe.  Okay.  Help me narrow down WHAT specifically I need to believe.  I have literally hundreds of options in doctrine and they all seem to be equal.  Surely the Holy Spirit has at least a little bit of interest in guiding people toward correct doctrine and away from incorrect doctrine.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You don't strike me as a backsliding believer so much as a skeptical atheist whose only purpose here is to plant doubts in the hearts of believers.



I've addressed this a few times before.  Just because I see no evidence of God actively involved in people's lives currently, does not in any way equate to a belief that He does not exist.  God abandoned Israel many times throughout scripture when their sin became too great.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm repeatedly told that I must simply believe.  Okay.  Help me narrow down WHAT specifically I need to believe.  I have literally hundreds of options in doctrine and they all seem to be equal.  Surely the Holy Spirit has at least a little bit of interest in guiding people toward correct doctrine and away from incorrect doctrine.



Ask the HS


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ask the HS



Does talking in circles make you dizzy?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Does talking in circles make you dizzy?



No just the endless straw man scenarios, boundless pretensed questions framed under the guise of feigned ignorance and the willingness on your behalf to hijack the topic of any thread to fit your skeptical agenda.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 18, 2014)

When I get a reasonable and logical explanation for an issue that causes doubt, I promise to do my best to set that one aside until another explanation for a different issue is in direct conflict with it.  But at that point I'm afraid I might feel the need to bring it back up.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 18, 2014)

Question after question after question after question after question after question after question...... and an answer always leads to more question after question after question.


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## ambush80 (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hawg.  I've have no desire to play "catch me if you can" with you.  I gave you an honest answer to your question.   You're smart enough to understand it, yet I suspect it contradicts your pretenses which have become all too obvious.  You don't strike me as a backsliding believer so much as a skeptical atheist whose only purpose here is to plant doubts in the hearts of believers.  The questions you ask aren't those of one earnestly seeking God, but of one seeking to disprove Him.  "Did God really say...? ".   We've heard that one somewhere before.




Man.  If you're wrong about Hawg you're gonna be in trouuuuuuuble.


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## formula1 (Feb 19, 2014)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Question after question after question after question after question after question after question...... and an answer always leads to more question after question after question.



Hi Mr. Retired Mod!

All questioning ends at fully trusting God our Father and Jesus Christ the Son as our advocate.  Outside of trust, questions will always continue. 

I hope we all get there!  Most assuredly, many will!


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## Ronnie T (Feb 19, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Hi Mr. Retired Mod!
> 
> All questioning ends at fully trusting God our Father and Jesus Christ the Son as our advocate.  Outside of trust, questions will always continue.
> 
> I hope we all get there!  Most assuredly, many will!



    Hey, everyone has to retire sometimes.  And I continue drawing my moderator salary for the rest of my life.  

I was just reminded that, in the Bible, Jesus didn't often provide the answers that questioners hoped to hear.
Almost as though He was forcing the individual to simply trust and have faith.

We should all think about the rich young dude who claimed to be totally obedient already........ Jesus commanded him to sell all of his possessions. 
One should be careful in asking questions of the one who gave His life for you.

Thanks brother.  Trust.


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## Denton (Feb 19, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> This forum is a great place to discuss Christian and spiritual matter. And here it can be done semi-anonymously. We've all occasionally come across a stirring remark or comment that touched us.
> Or a sentence that brought clarity to a subject that we had never thought of before.



YES! Clarity is the goal for the majority of questions.  I asked the OP because I was genuinely interested if anyone’s comments were actually read, understood, and given merit.  If no one is even remotely allowing these conversations to enter their mind, then all they are doing is hoping/praying for a miracle conversion that they are not willing to reciprocate.  It’s a shouting match with the logical conclusion that anyone from one belief should never talk to anyone with a different belief.   

When I ask a question I am interested in your answer, interested enough to allow for your response to change how I feel/think/believe.  By being here, I am investing my time and effort into your thoughts and ideas.  Why do you harden your heart to my thoughts, questions, and ideas just because I have yet to accept Jesus as my savior?  



Ronnie T said:


> But there's an awful lot of confusion here. And that being the case, it isn't a place to form convictions.
> 
> Christians are always best served when they verify every thought with God's word. This isn't a "majority wins" contest. Or a "winner take all" quiz.



Forgive me, these statements do not make sense to me.  You are right, confusion does not form convictions, but the resolution of confusion does form convictions.  That is why we are all here is it not?  To un-confuse ourselves and our online friends?  Heck, we may even score a conversion here and there by resolving enough confusions. 

Which brings us to the second part of this statement.  Are we not here to verify our thoughts with God’s word? Especially when we need guidance on what that word means?  Prayer is informative but we have all had new ideas come to us from outside.  Can God not also speak to us through our friends and enemies? No one lives in a fishbowl.  We ask trusted friends, pastors, etc.  But here is where this is absolutely a “majority wins” contest.  If we only respect people’s responses who already believe like us, then we fall into Confirmation Bias which degrades all of our thoughts or beliefs.  The more people who feed each other the same ideas and confirm each other’s beliefs further cement those beliefs regardless of their correctness.  

Spirited and enlightened debate is how we got to live in such a marvelous world that we do.  By shouting down non-believers, I feel that believers do themselves a disservice by setting the foundations of their belief on soft soil.  If your foundation cannot support your faith in the winds of doubt, and your only weapon against those doubters is to shut your ears to them rather than to respect their thoughts, then what? 



Ronnie T said:


> And certainly not a place that many of us want to waste much time with mockers.



No mockery Ronnie.  I really did want to see how many people felt the same as you and if I should invest time in discussing things away from the AAA forum.  




Ronnie T said:


> Question after question after question after question after question after question after question...... and an answer always leads to more question after question after question.



Isn't it a fun rabbit hole? I love it. For some of us the rabbit hole just made us throw our hands up and decry it as impossible while the rest of us also throw our hands up and declare that to understand is impossible and that is a test in itself, that faith will ultimately save us despite our lack of comprehension.


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## Denton (Feb 19, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe that the athiest enjoy the conversation, interested because they have went through a crisis of faith, searching, learning and came out on the other side than I did. And whether interested in what I believe or just pointing out "what about this", I have found them to be respectful of my beliefs. When someone disrespects them, this does not count against them if they return fire. But I have noticed and would like to point out that these guys never enter the prayer forum. They could easily question in this area but do not. This is  respectful on their part.



This. Thank you. 

For the most part we don’t have our faith telling us that our friends and family might be losing their souls forever if we don’t convert them. 

It is true that many non-believers began their spiritual life as believers and upon conversion to the “dark side” found that the conversion was quite painless. Through the process they found themselves and that they could remain themselves even through a belief change. This does not mean that people can not find themselves by converting the other way of course. Nor does any one belief have a monopoly on kind, open-minded listeners.  But athiests are not so often told that their new path is the only true path. This leaves me, and I hope others, to be able to recognize helpful and reasonable beliefs when I see them, here or elsewhere, as well as open to criticism. 

I don’t feel this maleability is a weakness.  We believe in our convictions but are not blinded by our love for them so much that we cannot adapt. Nor do these shifts ever happen quickly but after lots of careful consideration and respectful discourse.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 19, 2014)

Individuals can venture between believing and not believing in God. We can venture between beliefs within Christianity. Some individuals venture into believing in other Gods. I would venture to say that most individuals on this forum are more sincere than we give them credit for. I welcome any and all questions and discussions. My faith is strong and yet I don't have all of the answers. I would hope my answers and questions will help others as much as they help me. I don't think no one on here has a secret agenda. My faith is always strengthened by every question instead of weakened. I say bring it on and may God have mercy on your soul.


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## Denton (Feb 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> My faith is always strengthened by every question instead of weakened. I say bring it on and may God have mercy on your soul.



I sincerely hope he will if it comes to that! Otherwise I'm toast, my many good deeds and intentions be danged.  

And may you show no mercy on any of my future posts should they be idiotic.


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