# Why don't modern day Christians obey the 4th commandment?



## bigreddwon (Aug 23, 2012)

Why don't modern day Christians obey the 4th commandment? 

Is it a OT/NT type of thing? I'm curious, it seems almost universal that the modern day Christians ignore this commandment. It makes me wonder how different America would be if it was followed being that were mostly a Christian nation. If all Christian owned business's shut down, airlines, trucking company's, hospitals, it would be a very different country.

Any thoughts? _Could_ it be followed, will it ever?

Is their a difference between being an imperfect human who involuntarily breaks a commandment and and intelligent human who just plain decides its not a 'practical' commandment and is not going to follow it? Can you be forgiven for the latter?


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2012)

What does "keep it holy" mean?

Then, would you be willing to do a search of the NT to determine what of the OT law applies to Christians?


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 23, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> What does "keep it holy" mean?
> 
> Then, would you be willing to do a search of the NT to determine what of the OT law applies to Christians?



I don't know what it means.. I'm asking. Does it mean obey it in a literal sense? Think about it? I wasn't under the impression that the 'ten commandments' were written off so to speak with the NT. Or are you speaking about other laws and instructions in the NT that 'override' the OT?


----------



## gtparts (Aug 23, 2012)

Christ's own mention of the Sabbath, with attention to the law of love and what constitutes "holiness", seems to take us far beyond the rigid interpretations of the legalists. 

And there is the simple truth that God is rather displeased when we fail to do good, even (and perhaps especially) on the day set aside for rest and worship. Helping others apparently qualifies as one type of worship. If that poses a serious issue, it is probably best to consider whether the Holy Spirit has you under conviction for not "keeping it holy". Remembering that the Sabbath was (is) created for men and not men for the Sabbath, I am very careful about imposing my understanding upon others. I trust God will let me know if I have it wrong. I also trust He will do the same for others.

The Ten Commandments center on two things:

1) Loving God
2) Loving people

It's never a sin to love both. And there is no law against doing so.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> I don't know what it means.. I'm asking. Does it mean obey it in a literal sense? Think about it? I wasn't under the impression that the 'ten commandments' were written off so to speak with the NT. Or are you speaking about other laws and instructions in the NT that 'override' the OT?



I beleive that Jesus "completed" the law.  So, we are no longer "sanctified" by law (actions).  We are required to exercise faith....not works.  The law represents works.  Jesus represents grace.

So, I think in the OT it was a literal commandment.  Now, post Jesus, we view the "law" through the context of the NT.  We cannot murder, kill, commit adultery, and follow the teachings of Jesus.  But, we do see Jesus doing stuff on the Sabath that was not considered "cool" to the NT pharisees.  As a Christian, we can follow Jesus' example.

I got into this a bit over in the AAA a few days back.  But, there are nuances to the faith that a simple black and white "yes / no" proposition will not address.

For instance, can we eat pork (something I am sure is near nad dear to your heart).  Short answer....yes.  But that is only because we have an NT context to consider when viewing OT law.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2012)

Jesus said I didn't come to destroy the law, but to fulfill it.
This is my take on a lot of modern Christians: We were born sinners and we will die sinners. Don't beat yourself up every time you sin. Your sins are forgiven. You have assurance of your salvation. With this mind set sinning is no big deal. Surely following Old Testament laws isn't important. Never mind some of those laws are in the New Covenant. I agree following laws is not as important as showing love, helping others, and forgiving trespassers.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Aug 23, 2012)

Why has this change in keeping the Sabbath Holy taken place in our culture? Is the Sabbath Saturday? I've heard we should keep Saturday Holy so preachers don't have to work on the Sabbath.
When I was young we didn't go to stores and restaurants on Sunday. We didn't go hunting, boating, or fishing on Sunday. We rested after Church. We didn't have Early Church to hurry out to do worldly things. Why has this changed?


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 23, 2012)

I don't know....Chick Fil A sure does seem to be doing okie dokie.


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't know....Chick Fil A sure does seem to be doing okie dokie.



You probably went there a bunch recently


----------



## formula1 (Aug 23, 2012)

*Re:*

On own and by our own doing, we cannot attain righteousness no matter how good we are following the commandments of the Law.  The entire purpose of Christs' death, sacrifice, burial and resurrection rest in the truth that man could not redeem himself by his own actions(this is what the law could not do). Christ restored right relationship to God by His payment for sin.  Imperfect man could not pay for his sin, but rather a perfect sacrifice, that is, Jesus Christ. We as Christians are to follow the One who became sin for us that we might live in the righteousness of Christ himself. The Law of Old was given to convict the guilty and provide for redemption, until Christ came to complete the redemptive plan and set us free! One cannot have guilt without conviction (the Law), nor can you attain freedom from guilt without  a payment for sin(violation of the legal requirement).  Both have to occur for man to be reconciled to God through Christ.  The most interesting thing is this, God through Christ took care of both for us, that is, if we trust His plan and purpose and turn from our way( that is, man's way) to His way. It's the crasiest thing in the world to find forgiveness in Christ (or so it seems), but it is possible for everyone who believes! 

For me at least, everyday is a day to honor God,I don't feel bogged down to the legal requirement, but set free to worship God and keep my relationship with Him Holy everyday. And if I fail because I am human, I am confident my God will restore me! After all, He said he would and He has not failed me, ever!!!


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 23, 2012)

> You probably went there a bunch recently



Well...yes.  I mean, obviously I had to be there to participate in the "kiss-in".


----------



## JB0704 (Aug 23, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Well...yes.  I mean, obviously I had to be there to participate in the "kiss-in".


----------



## Israel (Aug 23, 2012)

Walking in the spirit is observing the sabbath. 
The rest created for man.
It is the place where you do not speak your own words, nor do your own will, nor seek your own ways.
It is not a burden, it is liberty.
It is not something you do. 
It is where you recognize ALL things have been done for you.
People will either hate it or love it, call it a delight...or put you to death.
But they are way too late.
Isaiah had a glimpse of what the sabbath is in what we call the 58th chapter.
Jesus simply kept it, enjoyed it, and has given every brother of his to know it.
The way he did this is the way you will. 
Or not.
Are each of us walking in our last day?
If our own work is not over, in whom have we believed?


----------



## Ronnie T (Aug 23, 2012)

The Old Testament Covenant that included what we refer to as the ten commandments was strictly between God and those that He freed from Egyptian slavery(and their decendants).

That covenant was in affect until it was fulfilled by God's Son's death and resurrection.  At that moment, a new covenant was established by God which would ultimately be available to any person who believed in the death and resurrection of His Son.

According to the scriptures, that old law no longer is in force, but most of it has been rewritten into this new covenant we are now able to live in.

For instance, one commandment says "thou shall not commit murder".
But in the new covenant, Jesus says "thou shall not hate thy brother, for it is hate that leads to murder"(my version).

The sabbath day observance of the first covenant could have been brought into the second covenant, and there were many opportunities for it to be stated after the establishment of the church and the kingdon of heaven.    But it wasn't.
For Christians, each day is a holy day unto the Lord.  For Christians, we're commanded to recognized Sunday, which is the day our Lord was raised from the dead.  1st century Christians met on the Lord's day to celebrate Christ's life and death in the sharing of the Lord's supper(communion).  That was Sunday, our first day of the week.

But I would love to see us closing everything up on Sunday.


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 23, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Why don't modern day Christians obey the 4th commandment?



We just pick and choose what we want to believe.  It's easier on us, and it provides endless amusement for the skeptics.


----------



## rjcruiser (Aug 23, 2012)

bigreddwon said:


> Why don't modern day Christians obey the 4th commandment?
> 
> Is it a OT/NT type of thing? I'm curious, it seems almost universal that the modern day Christians ignore this commandment. It makes me wonder how different America would be if it was followed being that were mostly a Christian nation. If all Christian owned business's shut down, airlines, trucking company's, hospitals, it would be a very different country.
> 
> ...



For some reason...I just don't buy this.



bigreddwon said:


> I don't know what it means.. I'm asking.


----------



## bigreddwon (Aug 23, 2012)

Eye opening. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.


----------



## polkhunt (Aug 23, 2012)

Yes the Sabbath is Saturday actually sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. I think we all fail at keeping many of the commandments not just this one. I think that is why grace has been extended to us because we cannot keep them but that being said we probably should try.


----------



## hobbs27 (Aug 23, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> The Old Testament Covenant that included what we refer to as the ten commandments was strictly between God and those that He freed from Egyptian slavery(and their decendants).
> 
> That covenant was in affect until it was fulfilled by God's Son's death and resurrection.  At that moment, a new covenant was established by God which would ultimately be available to any person who believed in the death and resurrection of His Son.
> 
> ...



Well done! Nailed it.


----------



## irishredneck (Aug 24, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> The Old Testament Covenant that included what we refer to as the ten commandments was strictly between God and those that He freed from Egyptian slavery(and their decendants).
> 
> That covenant was in affect until it was fulfilled by God's Son's death and resurrection.  At that moment, a new covenant was established by God which would ultimately be available to any person who believed in the death and resurrection of His Son.
> 
> ...



Well said 

The Sabbath was actually originally on a Saturday and the days back then were from 6pm to 6pm, so now the Sabbath is on a Sunday, it should actually be on a Monday too. Im all for a 3 day weekend! 
As much as I dislike the fact the commandments only make me conscious of my sin instead of focusing on Jesus, I take the 4th commandment to mean- set aside time to devote all your focus and attention on God at least one day a week and most importantly REST! 
Did you know Jesus performed most of his miracles on the Sabbath? God speaks to us because we listen easier and can therefore work through us better when we are at rest. 
So take some time to rest from the day to day life and rest in the finished work of Christ.


----------



## toddboucher (Aug 29, 2012)

Since the church's beginning sunday, the Lord day  or the 1st day of the week was a time of worship. This is placed over and over again in the NT. We worship on the Lords day, The church was really birthed on Pentecost Sunday(50 days after passover), because Jesus told his followers to wait till they recieved power from on high. Paul talks a lot about coming together on the 1st day of the week. 
I look at it this way God has made our bodies to rest 1 day a week. He doesn't care if its Sunday Saturday or Tuesday if you get that day off of work. The Deal is putting a day aside for rest and to worship him. I'll admit I only work 5 days a week so its not really speaking to me. work 6 days you shall work and on the 7th you shall rest.


----------



## mtnwoman (Sep 7, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> We just pick and choose what we want to believe.  It's easier on us, and it provides endless amusement for the skeptics.



I hear ya! lol


----------



## Bama4me (Sep 23, 2012)

IMO, the answer (Ronnie discussed it) is probably the most misunderstood subject in the entire Bible.  The Bible has three general "eras"... or divisions within which the people of the earth followed various laws.

*  Genesis 1 - Exodus 20:  "Patriarchal Era"... so named because God revealed His will to people through patriarchs of families (Noah, Abraham, etc.)
*  Exodus 20 - Acts 1:  "Levitical Era"... so named because the Israelites followed the Law of Moses (including the 10 Commandments) and Gentiles (non-Israelites) continued the practice of the Patriarchal Era
*  Acts 2 - modern day:  "Christian Age"... so named because we now live under the "Law of Christ"; when the Lord died on the cross, He annuled the Law of Moses and the Patriarchal Law (see Colossians 2, Ephesians 2, and Hebrews 8).

Couple of points from these ideas:
(1)  Had most of us been alive during the "Levitical Era", we would not have been responsible for obeying the Law of Moses (including the 10 Commandments) because most of us are Gentiles.  We would have been accountable to the Patriarchal Law.  Note:  Many ideas of the Law of Moses may have been present in Patriarchal Law... I'm pretty certain God would not have been pleased with any Gentiles trying to serve Him and another "god" at the same time. : )
(2)  Jesus lived and died under the Law of Moses because He was a Jew.  While on earth, He gave many teachings which should be prevalent within His church... some of them things which were "carryovers" from the Law of Moses.

As Ronnie T. pointed out above, we don't observe Sabbath regulations of the Law of Moses today... but in some way or another, the other nine of the Ten Commandments are restated in the New Testament... thus making them ideas that we should live by today.

Also, it's important to probably point out that Christ's Law is one of "faith" and "works".  The issue of folks having works but no faith is covered in Romans 4... the issue of folks having faith but no works is covered in James 2.  The idea that the OT was all about "works" without faith will stand at odds with Hebrews 11.  Numerous OT characters had a faith which moved them to obey God (work).


----------



## Ronnie T (Sep 23, 2012)

Bama4me said:


> IMO, the answer (Ronnie discussed it) is probably the most misunderstood subject in the entire Bible.  The Bible has three general "eras"... or divisions within which the people of the earth followed various laws.
> 
> *  Genesis 1 - Exodus 20:  "Patriarchal Era"... so named because God revealed His will to people through patriarchs of families (Noah, Abraham, etc.)
> *  Exodus 20 - Acts 1:  "Levitical Era"... so named because the Israelites followed the Law of Moses (including the 10 Commandments) and Gentiles (non-Israelites) continued the practice of the Patriarchal Era
> ...



Ouuu, that's a great point, Heb 11).
Good to hear from you.  Been missing your comments.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 24, 2012)

An additional era might be added. The protestant error perhaps or is it era?

I think we are all protestants, even catholics are protestants these days...

A sweet Johovah's Witness lady was at my door yesterday morning ( sunday morning!) and pointed out that the End Times was not what "we" were often led to believe, that it was not going to be all devastation and destruction but goodness and bounty. ( However, she never asked me if I was of the "we" cheerleading section. Or what the doctrine of my franchise was.)

Nevertheless, I read this morning in the Awake tract she left me...{Quote, "The Bible exhorts worshippers to speak in agreement, to avoid divisions, and to be "fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought."} End Quote!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What? If we believed this would there be Johovah's Witness today?

If there was another planet to move to these days, I think alot of folk would settle there...to avoid disagreement, divisions and disunity with "their" Bible as their immigration certificate. Problem is they would not all agree how Jesus and God made them all his own.

 A visitor to worship there would soon wonder if a healing and freedom was not required by all. Claiming salvation and blessings yet! all suffering to some form or degree from the ailments supposed to have been cured as indicated in Matthew-5-6-7!

I think it would not be long before some would just stay at Home--regardless of the planet. Much of the world christians have created for themselves just does not allow unity and agreement and a fit mind--in many ways. Throught disagreement and competition, it fosters just the opposite. ( Tell me, we that don't sit together as one people, who want's to sit with a muslim as an equal? --and who always prays that "their bible" will tump them on the head?)

In my personal case, I see myself as unfit and protest: my priest as unfit, my elders as unfit, my people unfit, the JW unfit, The Gospel according to Revelation is unfit...etc.... so I worship here? 

Perhaps.  Perhaps, the only fit folk I know are dead, Isaiah and Jesus...as for the rest they are all bums..like myself. ( Perhaps one exception, yet she is dead also, my grand-ma was the sweetest girl I ever know. She was RC. Married a boy raised by a presbytirian, and stopped going to church and sat at the table instead for that Armstrong preacher from California when he  had his World Tomorrow on her radio... -----She once told me ( in the sixties) that the world was going to end when the "yellow race roamed and run all the world's gates and  things all over the world.... That bread is risen, cooked or about to be fed, I believe.... O' Hum! Who knows for sure? Perhaps the computer allows for one great worship for shut-ins. This way we can compete, agree and disagree and not use real poker chips,--in the collection plate. Never the less say, Jesus come.


Maybe the JW have it right. Here's what they leave me with this morning. {Quote. Hebrews 10;24, 25. Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together."}  But I wonder if they will come and fill the empty pews at my church?


----------



## hawglips (Oct 31, 2012)

I believe part of the reason is the modern church's emphasis on "grace" -- unfortunately defined as "no need to obey".

Some Christian churches do still teach the importance of keeping the sabbath day holy.  But it's one of those commandments that is tougher to draw a line on what constitutes obedience and what constitutes disobedience.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 31, 2012)

hawglips said:


> I believe part of the reason is the modern church's emphasis on "grace" -- unfortunately defined as "no need to obey".
> 
> Some Christian churches do still teach the importance of keeping the sabbath day holy.  But it's one of those commandments that is tougher to draw a line on what constitutes obedience and what constitutes disobedience.



John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

I understand obedience is something a Christian will want to do but it is a requirement. When you command someone to do something, you expect them to do it.


----------



## hawglips (Nov 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.



And those who have been forgiven more, will love him more.  

But then there is also John 7: 21 --  "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

And Matthew 25 sure makes it tough to avoid the idea that there is a real need to do certain things if one hopes to be saved in the kingdom of God.  Lots of other things the Savior taught echo that.



Artfuldodger said:


> I understand obedience is something a Christian will want to do but it is a requirement. When you command someone to do something, you expect them to do it.



But it seems like a lot of preachers are spreading the idea that there is no actual need for obedience -- which fosters disobedience of "keep the sabbath day holy", for example, as well as other commandments.  Preachers are preaching that you can walk in the flesh, because if you really and truly profess a belief in Christ, you are saved for good.  They seem to be creating a "saved" club of elites who look down their noses at others instead of preaching the gospel of repentance that Jesus taught.   I've read two different books lately that seem to do this.

It kind of negates the need to preach repentence at all if there is no requirement to obey anything.   Want to treat Sunday like any other day, but more of it?   Sure, go ahead, you're saved.  Want to live with that girlfriend for a while instead of marrying her?  No harm, no foul, you're saved!  As long as you profess to believe in Christ, that's all that matters!   Backsliding a bit?  No problem.  It's bad to weigh a good Christian down with guilt about the commandments he's not obeying -- no need to confess our sins to him, repent, and walk the walk -- you're saved!   He's already paid the price for your sins!  You're good to go!

But, it seems to me that Jesus not only requires us to obey his commandments, but he even raised the bar on the commandments during the Sermon on the Mount, for example.   The letter of the law was no longer enough -- you now had to obey the full spirit of the law; e.g., not only did you have to obey "thou shalt not kill", but now you were expected not to get angry at another; not only did you have to obey "thou shalt not commit adultery", but you now had to not even look upon another woman and lust after her in your heart, etc.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 27, 2013)

Skyking said:


> I submit to you that NO part of the scriptures have EVER been done away with and it's only our misunderstood interpretations and misguided attempts at being holy that mess us up.Read the front of the book folks....



Another piece of the puzzle falls into place.


----------



## Milkman (Feb 27, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> But I would love to see us closing everything up on Sunday.




Ronnie,

Not to be a stumbling block to the overall idea of keeping it Holy, but how could our 2013 society function without folks working on Sunday?  

Just a few of many that have no choice of being 24/7......

Law enforcement and Penal system
Hosptial and health providers
Ambulance, fire, rescue.
Military
gas station
Tow truck
Power generator plants   (lights and HVAC at the church) 
Other Utility company 
Internet provider workers


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 27, 2013)

Would Jesus eat pork?


----------



## hobbs27 (Feb 27, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Would Jesus eat pork?



Only after he was resurrected, and the kingdom had come.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2013)

Milkman said:


> Ronnie,
> 
> Not to be a stumbling block to the overall idea of keeping it Holy, but how could our 2013 society function without folks working on Sunday?
> 
> ...



Everything couldn't close.  And closing wouldn't make anything any more holy.  I made my statement not from a religious point of view but for the purpose of seeing America be forced to calm down a little bit.
I don't even subscribe to Sunday being the new sabbath.
.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> The Old Testament Covenant that included what we refer to as the ten commandments was strictly between God and those that He freed from Egyptian slavery(and their decendants).
> 
> That covenant was in affect until it was fulfilled by God's Son's death and resurrection.  At that moment, a new covenant was established by God which would ultimately be available to any person who believed in the death and resurrection of His Son.
> 
> ...





Skyking said:


> Ephesians 2:12
> that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the *commonwealth of Israel* and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.{you are now being brought back into the covenant}
> 
> 
> ...



I don't believe I ever said scripture had been "Done away with".  If I did, I misspoke.

Without reading what I've already written, I should have said God's covenant with Israel has been fulfilled with Jesus the Christ.
Now, through Jesus, all the world is the recipient of God's grace.  Granted through Abraham, prior to God proclaiming Israel as His own.

I like the verses you listed.  Receive a blessing from them.  But, for me, they do not speak to the issue.
.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 27, 2013)

Jesus did a lot of things that His fellow countrymen didn't like.
He might have eaten pork.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2013)

Skyking said:


> I have to go look ,I never would have taken it as you thought scripture  had been done away with...
> I included this link on another post and will include it here Ronnie T ,It;s very powerful teaching on who is Israel .Only 56 pages and will challenge what you thought you knew if you like those sort of studies..
> *Study of the Two House Restoration of Israel*
> http://www.emetyahshua.com/uploads/...n_of_Israe1_rev_8.1_sacred_names_w-cover_.pdf



I appreciate the writings that you offer but, and I hope you'll understand, I don't generally read things like that.  Often, readings such as that will change a person, whether or not it changes the actual.

But I'll be glad to discuss God's word with you.

Thanks.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I appreciate the writings that you offer but, and I hope you'll understand, I don't generally read things like that.


I will save you some time. It is 50 plus pages of a feeble attempt, to place upon you, the yoke of bondage to the law.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I will save you some time. It is 50 plus pages of a feeble attempt, to place upon you, the yoke of bondage to the law.



From what I've read, I'd have to agree.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I will save you some time. It is 50 plus pages of a feeble attempt, to place upon you, the yoke of bondage to the law.






Skyking said:


> what exactly does this mean, better yet where is that in scripture?



Acts 15:5-11

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
6 The apostles and elders met to consider this question. 7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. 9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

Skyking said:


> then if I understand your reasoning and statement your saying your NOT of the commonwealth of Israel and not entitled to the inheritence given through Abraham  and his seed ...



That's obviously not what I'm saying.

"Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness"  - Gal. 3:6

" ... having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance ..." - Eph. 1:13-14


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

Skyking said:


> he was talking about the "yoke", rules, fence the Pharisees, Sadducees had put on the people.Traditions if you will that none of them could keep ,nothing to do with Torah as we know or understand it -mans laws



No, he was specifically referring to circumcision:

_And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” _

You don't get more "Torah" than circumcision.


----------



## hobbs27 (Feb 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, he was specifically referring to circumcision:
> 
> _And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” _
> 
> You don't get more "Torah" than circumcision.



You mean the Bible isnt a collection of 31,000+ one liners that we can whip out and arrange in whatever order that best suits our arguments?


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> You mean the Bible isnt a collection of 31,000+ one liners that we can whip out and arrange in whatever order that best suits our arguments?



Contrary to popular belief ... no.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?

Some commentaries: (two for ritual law & one for moral law)
Barne:
of oppressive and burdensome ceremonies,

Clark:
A yoke - which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? - This does not refer to the moral law - that was of eternal obligation - but to the ritual law, which, through the multitude of its sacrifices, ordinances, etc., was exceedingly burthensome to the Jewish people.

Gill:
nor the whole ceremonial law only, which consisted of a multitude of commands and ordinances very heavy and hard; but even the whole moral law, which circumcision obliged those who submitted to it to keep it perfectly;


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> The Old Testament Covenant that included what we refer to as the ten commandments was strictly between God and those that He freed from Egyptian slavery(and their decendants).
> 
> That covenant was in affect until it was fulfilled by God's Son's death and resurrection.  At that moment, a new covenant was established by God which would ultimately be available to any person who believed in the death and resurrection of His Son.
> 
> ...



I agree with you Ronnie and the others who have basically posted the same thing.

Only one thing I can't agree with is closing everything on Sunday. We can't force others to believe as we do, the best thing for us to do is what we are convicted of....don't shop, or don't go to movies, whatever you personally believe is not right for 'that' day. For me I do what I have to on whatever day I have to, depending on whether I have money (most of the time) or not. When I sit with my little ol' lady on sunday who is homebound and she pays me and I need gas to get home and back, then I'm glad someone is open on sunday and I'm not convicted otherwise. It's either that or let my lil'ol' lady fend for herself on sunday...just can't do it...I'm under conviction to help her and have mercy and grace on her even though she makes me cry a lot. I know she's sick and has mental problems and I can't just forsake her....but I guess that comes under, do unto others....


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
> 
> Some commentaries: (two for ritual law & one for moral law)
> Barne:
> ...



And that is why we need Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Nice post MrDodger.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> And that is why we need Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Nice post MrDodger.



We have to agree the New Covenant is different from the Old Covenant or we wouldn't have needed a new one. I don't see exactly as everyone else but I do see a different covenant, one that stresses love, forgiveness, and helping others.
I guess my difference is even with grace, I see some new commandments. Some are the same as the old without rituals. The Holy Spirit helps us to keep the new commandments, but doesn't prevent us from breaking them. That old free will thing again. Some say we don't have free will until we are saved because we are "slaves to sin". Some say we lose our free will when we are saved because the Holy Spirit takes over our bodies and makes all of our choices.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Some say we lose our free will when we are saved because the Holy Spirit takes over our bodies and makes all of our choices.



Are they saying they are sinless? I don't mean forgiven, but actually sinless?


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 1, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Are they saying they are sinless? I don't mean forgiven, but actually sinless?


If they say that, they are deceived. They may be referring to the new creature (“Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature”). This is Christ in you.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Are they saying they are sinless? I don't mean forgiven, but actually sinless?



I know we've had the conversation before that even with the power of the Holy Spirit within us we still sin. Our sin nature is a powerful force along with Satan helping it out. Although some say Satan doesn't have any power over Christians.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I know we've had the conversation before that even with the power of the Holy Spirit within us we still sin. Our sin nature is a powerful force along with Satan helping it out. Although some say Satan doesn't have any power over Christians.



Why do we continue in sin if we have no free will to do so?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Why do we continue in sin if we have no free will to do so?



If you are a Christian and have the Holy Spirit dwelling within and still sin, what else can it be? I agree. I don't know any other way too reconcile it.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Mr Dodger, I just wanted to tell you....since you first came here, I have watched your fruit grow and grow. You seek so much and I know some of that seeking is here, but I can tell how much you have matured in the Word of God. Not that you weren't when you first came here, just saying I've been blessed very much by what you have accomplished in a short time and you inspire me so much to seek the answers in the Bible, to the questions we are confronted with here. This place also makes me search the Word and I hope it does for many more of us

I will be happy to meet you in heaven.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

On another thread we were discussing differences between us, the prophets  and the apostles. I believe as you do, (or at least from reading your posts), God grants us free will but he can use a particular person for a vessel as he sees fit. Example Saul. Saul wasn't seeking and yet God controlled the situation to make a vessel for his purpose. I know it's a fine line between our will & God's but I have scripture to back it up. The differences that is.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Not everyone is promised every gift.

Verse 29: Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

1 Corinthians 13:1 Lets us know there is more to living a Christian life than the gifts of the Holy Spirit. 
You must still use your free will to show love:
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.

There are differences between the early Church, present time, us, apostles, gifts, miracles, healings,  infallible will of God, guidance, & purposes.

To continue with the importance of Love in the New Covenant compared to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit mentioned above:
1 Corinthians 13:2-3
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love(charity), I am nothing. 3) If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> On another thread we were discussing differences between us, the prophets  and the apostles. I believe as you do, (or at least from reading your posts), God grants us free will but he can use a particular person for a vessel as he sees fit. Example Saul. Saul wasn't seeking and yet God controlled the situation to make a vessel for his purpose. I know it's a fine line between our will & God's but I have scripture to back it up. The differences that is.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 12:28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.
> 
> ...



Amen!!

I appreciate all you share here. I am learning a lot from your posts. You seek and you find. I admire that in you.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Mr Dodger, I just wanted to tell you....since you first came here, I have watched your fruit grow and grow. You seek so much and I know some of that seeking is here, but I can tell how much you have matured in the Word of God. Not that you weren't when you first came here, just saying I've been blessed very much by what you have accomplished in a short time and you inspire me so much to seek the answers in the Bible, to the questions we are confronted with here. This place also makes me search the Word and I hope it does for many more of us
> 
> I will be happy to meet you in heaven.



I hope to see you and the other members there in our new physical bodies of flesh & bones. I have learned more here than in a building but that is my fault, not the congregation. I'll admit that my questions aren't traditional but I really don't care. I'm just seeking answers from many sources. If one doesn't feel at ease answering please don't. With the help of the Holy Spirit,  people like you, and fellow members, I'm beginning to answer questions I didn't even know I had. I don't agree with you or anyone else on every issue and that's not even important to me. Gemcgrew's son's conversion reminded me of that. I believe the road to full  Sanctification is a long road. I believe it is hard to live a Christian life for me. I believe that journey could be different for each individual as our salvation is between us and God and no one else.Thanks for your words of encouragement. 
Remember in class where the teacher said the only stupid question was the one not asked? Well I never have had that problem.

One time a cell phone salesman said why are you asking so many questions? Are you an Engineer? I said no but I am in the Engineering field as a Journeyman.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I hope to see you and the other members there in our new physical bodies of flesh & bones. I have learned more here than in a building but that is my fault, not the congregation. I'll admit that my questions aren't traditional but I really don't care. I'm just seeking answers from many sources. If one doesn't feel at ease answering please don't. With the help of the Holy Spirit,  people like you, and fellow members, I'm beginning to answer questions I didn't even know I had. I don't agree with you or anyone else on every issue and that's not even important to me. Gemcgrew's son's conversion reminded me of that. I believe the road to full  Sanctification is a long road. I believe it is hard to live a Christian life for me. I believe that journey could be different for each individual as our salvation is between us and God and no one else.Thanks for your words of encouragement.
> Remember in class where the teacher said the only stupid question was the one not asked? Well I never have had that question.



You're right none of us agree on everything. But we can cause that other person to seek, and you to also seek. That's all we can do, and God tells us to do that and you cause some/most/all of us to seek, and that's why I appreciate your posts, whether we agree or not.....you give food for thought.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> One time a cell phone salesman said why are you asking so many questions? Are you an Engineer? I said no but I am in the Engineering field as a Journeyman.


----------



## Israel (Mar 2, 2013)

As to the original question:
Why don't modern day Christians obey the 4th commandment? 

It has always and only been the "christian" who keeps the commandments of God.

And by that I mean only the one whose hope is in messiah, the appearance of the salvation of God to him/her...to be and do all in, through, and for them...rest may be a relative term...death is not.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 2, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> Why do we continue in sin if we have no free will to do so?


Think about it this way. Don't you wish to never sin again? Something is more powerful than your will to stop sinning. If something is more powerful than your will, than your will is not free from that more powerful something.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 2, 2013)

Israel said:


> As to the original question:
> Why don't modern day Christians obey the 4th commandment?
> 
> It has always and only been the "christian" who keeps the commandments of God.
> ...


Well said. My hope is not in my obedience. My hope is in the obedience of Christ. I have no acceptance before God but Christ.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Think about it this way. Don't you wish to never sin again? Something is more powerful than your will to stop sinning. If something is more powerful than your will, than your will is not free from that more powerful something.



Of course I wish to never sin again...as I'm sure most of us do. My point is that I have free will to do so. Most of my sin nature is gone, compared to what I use to do. My main issue is saying things to someone that I'm convicted is wrong. Example is my lil ol' lady I sit with whose pretty abusive, she's had 14 other people in the past year. Sometimes I say things to her that I shouldn't because she has made me cry or something. She, being a Christian, too,  says she's sorry and of course I do, too. But nothing kept me from saying what I said, I said it on my own free will. Otherwise if I had no free will, I'd never say those things in the first place... or even put myself thru it again and again. My conviction of staying is greater than my wanting to just quit. But I've still said things that I shouldn't....that's free will on my part.


----------



## Israel (Mar 2, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Well said. My hope is not in my obedience. My hope is in the obedience of Christ. I have no acceptance before God but Christ.



It's peculiar...but I understand well...that to some that would "seem" negative...but for those of faith...it is all the securing of their position that could possibly be.
What some may see as as a sort of msiguided self deprecation...the believer comes to understand..."O! what a marvelous gift! what a relief from all my own strivings to be accepted. It is too wonderful to believe...unless God help with all the help there is....Himself.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 2, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> But nothing kept me from saying what I said, I said it on my own free will. Otherwise if I had no free will, I'd never say those things in the first place... or even put myself thru it again and again.


I do not sin because I have free will, I sin because I am sin and sinning is what I do. That is why I defend the doctrine of "Total Depravity". I am confronted with my depravity every day. When I pray, I am confronted with my selfishness. When I read and study scripture, I am confronted with wondering thoughts. A constant reminder that "in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing". (Romans 7:18)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not sin because I have free will, I sin because I am sin and sinning is what I do. That is why I defend the doctrine of "Total Depravity". I am confronted with my depravity every day. When I pray, I am confronted with my selfishness. When I read and study scripture, I am confronted with wondering thoughts. A constant reminder that "in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing". (Romans 7:18)



Total Depravity doesn't end with Salvation? How is this related to Sanctification? How can a Christian ever become more like Christ if he continues to be totally depraved?
There is nothing in your flesh that is good but there is something good in your spirit. There are lots of verses about the spirit vs the flesh. We are always wrestling with our sin nature.
another thing we have to contend with is the forces of evil:
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against 
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

(How can I wrestle without free will?)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2013)

Walk in the Spirit, not in the Flesh

Why doesn't every Christian do that every minute of every day?
Gemcgrew said: I am sin and sinning is what I do. I agree only I believe I have a choice not to walk in the flesh.
I also believe that  to constantly walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh is very, very hard for a man like me to do. I would say because of my sinful nature it is impossible to do constantly. Still it's no excuse to do it. I do feel guilty about it when I walk in the flesh. Why, because I know that God doesn't like it when I do that.


----------



## Israel (Mar 3, 2013)

There are things God likes...and things he doesn't. God likes to show mercy, bless without repentance, impart joy, generally just demonstrate remarkable generosity.
What God does not do is take any pleasure in our sorrow.
Do you, as  a Father, enjoy those times when you must chasten your child? Yet, you know you must...and if you are a "good" father, you must for their own good. Would you prefer they always take the wiser way, the obedient way? Of course.

There are some people, of whom I was one, who delighted in setting everyone they knew up for failure, for it allows them to vent their inner anger (that they did not know was a brutal spirit controlling them) upon them. That is everything God is not.

How to separate God's righteous wrath against sin (disobedience), from the thing he loves...man, created after his image and likeness? For to pour out his perfect judgment against sin, against the one in whom sin resides, would do nothing except kill the "host". 
And He saw that there was no man, And was astonished that there was no one to intercede; Then His own arm brought salvation to Him, And His righteousness upheld Him.

Someone was willing to take all in obedience...even to the point of being made sin itself...so that God's righteous judgment could be demonstrated clearly to us. Being made sin allowed him to receive in himself all due us...(without being a sinner), and because of this obedience...even to becoming sin for us, he was resurrected as a demonstration of God's approval of righteousness upon him. Remarkably peculiar, no? Almost bizarrely incomprehensible...and foolish. 
To whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

For the only "good" one to take all the punishment...yet with the promise of life for his obedience.
"No man takes my life from me, I lay it down, and I take it up again"

Seeing Jesus is all and everything God has for us...as life, as joy, as peace...and his way...is salvation. Walking in the spirit is simply seeing Jesus as one can. And the promise is always, to him who has, more will be given.

And knowing...it is not Jesus that is hiding, and walking in the light we have is a promise to cleanse...even what may still be some residue that clouds our vision. 
Just static...but do we hear enough of the music coming through to desire better tuning?


----------



## Israel (Mar 3, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not sin because I have free will, I sin because I am sin and sinning is what I do. That is why I defend the doctrine of "Total Depravity". I am confronted with my depravity every day. When I pray, I am confronted with my selfishness. When I read and study scripture, I am confronted with wondering thoughts. A constant reminder that "in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing". (Romans 7:18)



To despair of oneself is surely an experience included in walking with Jesus.
But...if that despair does not bring us to delight in the sufficiency of Christ, may we unknowingly be among those who promulgate something apart from salvation?

May we be "upholding" something that is less than the Lord...even if it be found in our walk with him? 

A funny thing happens to a soldier bothered by mosquitos when he discovers he has walked into an enemy ambush...he delights that his weapon worked so well...despite having previously been preoccupied with what was a very minor distraction.
Yes distractions come, but in our spiritual exercise the Lord knows exactly why...because a heart is visibly bright in the spirit to seek him...and flies are drawn to it...so...depending we can either despair of our being subject to flies bothersome flittering...or continue on to the firefight in which our sanctification is for the sake of others, and like Jesus...be willing to call down friendly fire upon our own position that comrades in arms be spared.

There are no atheists in foxholes. And whether we live or die, it is to the Lord.
I rarely like the onset of those times in which I am brought to see just how desperately I need the Lord.
But afterwards...something is seen that wasn't...before.


----------



## gemcgrew (Mar 3, 2013)

Israel said:


> To despair of oneself is surely an experience included in walking with Jesus.
> But...if that despair does not bring us to delight in the sufficiency of Christ, may we unknowingly be among those who promulgate something apart from salvation?


Yes, but only "if that despair does not bring us to delight in the sufficiency of Christ".


Israel said:


> May we be "upholding" something that is less than the Lord...even if it be found in our walk with him?


Yes, but I do not see "awareness of something" as necessarily "upholding that something". A believer, having been made aware of the vileness of the flesh, now has awareness of the necessity of a new creation. Not a rehabilitation of our old sinful flesh, but a new creation entirely.


Israel said:


> I rarely like the onset of those times in which I am brought to see just how desperately I need the Lord.
> But afterwards...something is seen that wasn't...before.


We praise God for that!


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I do not sin because I have free will, I sin because I am sin and sinning is what I do. That is why I defend the doctrine of "Total Depravity". I am confronted with my depravity every day. When I pray, I am confronted with my selfishness. When I read and study scripture, I am confronted with wondering thoughts. A constant reminder that "in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing". (Romans 7:18)



You either have free will to sin or you don't have free will. That's why I consider myself a freewiller. If I didn't have free will, I wouldn't sin, would I? If I was living totally under the will of God I would not sin...He wouldn't allow it.
And as far as studying the Bible and being in prayer (which is usually all day no matter what I'm doing physically) is because like the hart panteth for water, I panteth for Him.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2013)

Salvation is for everyone so that in itself is a good argument for free will:

No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)

And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.’ (Acts 2:21)

To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.” (Acts 10:43)

I have come into the world as light, so that whoever believes in me may not remain in darkness. (John 12:46)

For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” (Romans 10:11)

"who denies", "whoever confesses", who calls upon", "who believes", "whoever believes", "Everyone who believes"

Those excerpts from the above verses require a choice of the recipient human.


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 3, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Salvation is for everyone so that in itself is a good argument for free will:
> 
> No one who denies the Son has the Father. Whoever confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23)
> 
> ...



Yes!!
Otherwise I could blame my sins on God and my 'no salvation' on God.


----------



## combatcarry (Mar 6, 2013)

Colossians: 2
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Sabbath = Rest

Matthew 11
28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.

Jesus is our _Rest_...  Jesus is our _Sabbath_.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2013)

What is a Jewish New Moon celebration?


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 6, 2013)

combatcarry said:


> Matthew 11
> 28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
> 
> Jesus is our _Rest_...  Jesus is our _Sabbath_.



Amen!!


----------



## 4winds (Mar 11, 2013)

I love how Jesus simplified things for us:

Matthew 22:36-40

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’* 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

Easy to hear, hard to adhere to!

Jesus=Best!*


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 11, 2013)

4winds said:


> I love how Jesus simplified things for us:
> 
> Matthew 22:36-40
> 
> ...


*

If one was to do verse 37 & 39, he would pretty much have all the Old Testament commandments nailed. As you said, those are two very hard COMMANDMENTS to keep.*


----------



## mtnwoman (Mar 11, 2013)

4winds said:


> I love how Jesus simplified things for us:
> 
> Matthew 22:36-40
> 
> ...


*

Agree!

Right now I'm being tested and I feel like I'm going thru the fire. I'm gardening in my patch of patience and longsuffering and not letting my pride overtake the fact that I need a job to survive. I have to rebuke the debbil every five minutes I'm at my job...*


----------



## 04ctd (May 15, 2013)

keeping the Sabbath, keeps the rest of the week from exploding:

I used to be busy…and I always had too much going on to get it done, so I worked on my car or whatever on Sunday
I kinda knew I ought not to, but I just had so much to do.

One day, a lady at church had to move, and sure enuff, it was on Sunday. I did not care, so I went & helped.

Her Dad was there, he was an old timer, prolly in his 70’s, and he was right sharp about working on Sundays

I asked iffin was he super religious, and he barked no, he did not have no truck with none that religious mess.
Said his folks were, but he was not, said he won’t a bad person, but just won’t rushing off to church for nothing.


Said at one point in time, he got to realizing: if he worked on something on Sunday, it fell apart, and he spent the rest of the week patching & piddling trying to get it RIGHT.

Said he finally quit working on junk on Sunday, and started resting & spending time with family (his daughter really thought the world of him)

Said if he fixed something on Monday, it was done & over with, and he did not have to go back tweaking and adjusting on every little part.
Said he actually saved time by doing it just once on Mondays, and it got to be a way of life.

Said later on in life, he finally started enjoying resting on the Sabbath, but never got to going to church 

I pretty much tucked his story under my belt, and kept working on Sundays, and fixing on Mondays, Tuesdays, and the rest of the week.

Finally, I quit working on junk on Sunday, and started just relaxing.  No yard work, no car washing, no car fixing, 

If it ain’t a barn-burning emergency, I let it wait till Monday.  Life has been real smooth

And here lately, on Sunday, I been turning on the TV, turning off the sound, and practicing my ‘mid day snoring’

Dang, as hard as I run doing stuff during the week, it sure feels good to lay down & take a nap on Sunday


----------

