# Good, Bad, and how to decide



## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> In his book _The Moral Landscape_, Sam starts with the premise that you can plot Good and Bad on a continuum. He say "imagine the worst possible misery for all conscious creatures for as long as possible." He says that everyone should agree that that is bad. He then says any move away from that is towards the good. By "good" he usually refers to the very ambiguous term "Human Flourishing" But it's actually a 3D "landscape" with peaks an valleys. I like his idea but I think it's incomplete because when I follow that logic to the other extreme: "The most possible absence of misery for all conscious creatures for as long as possible", that, intuitively doesn't sound that great. I think we're evolved to suffer some. Animals are evolved to cause misery to other animals. I think misery is just a condition of being made from meat. It's unavoidable, but I think in the current condition we would thrive with less misery. That's just a guess, though.



Let's start here.


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

Philosophically there are so many problems with these types of questions.  
1) "imagine the worst possible misery for all conscious creatures for as long as possible." -- What could this be?  What is consciousness? Some philosophers would argue that animals do not live in misery, because they do not know what misery is or that there may be the ability to change their position.   For humans it could be argued the same.  there are many people who live in dire conditions, comparatively,  but they do not know it.

2) What is human flourishing?  Is it material wealth? Is it freedom to do as one pleases? Is it health? Family? Solitude? or could it be spiritual? 
Perhaps it is just a comfortable existence until death.


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> I think we're evolved to suffer some.



Suffering can be very motivational, evolutionary or designed in, another topic too, either way I believe humans are motivated toward comfort.


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> Philosophically there are so many problems with these types of questions.
> 1) "imagine the worst possible misery for all conscious creatures for as long as possible." -- What could this be?  What is consciousness? Some philosophers would argue that animals do not live in misery, because they do not know what misery is or that there may be the ability to change their position.   For humans it could be argued the same.  there are many people who live in dire conditions, comparatively,  but they do not know it.



I think physical pain is a good, basic place to start.  I don't like to talk about "animal's feelings" because I don't think that we can know what they truly are yet.  But we can be certain that (maybe all?) animals will try to move away from a source of tissue damage.  I guess we can call that experience pain, universally.  Nothing seems to like it.  

Consciousness is a toughie.  I like the explanation that "It's the recognition that 'something' is happening".  

2) What is human flourishing?  Is it material wealth? Is it freedom to do as one pleases? Is it health? Family? Solitude? or could it be spiritual?
Perhaps it is just a comfortable existence until death.[/QUOTE]

That's kind of an individual thing but as I pointed out above, almost all animals will move away from a source of tissue damage.  Flourishing, at a base level might be the absence of tissue damage.


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> Suffering can be very motivational, evolutionary or designed in, another topic too, either way I believe humans are motivated toward comfort.



Yes.  We're evolved to deal with burden.  Zero gravity has negative effects on our bodies.


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Are you familiar with Jordan Peterson?


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> That's kind of an individual thing but as I pointed out above, almost all animals will move away from a source of tissue damage.  Flourishing, at a base level might be the absence of tissue damage.



Like the unborn baby trying to get away from the suction tube in Unplanned.


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> Are you familiar with Jordan Peterson?


yes

" First learn to Clean your room."


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> Like the unborn baby trying to get away from the suction tube in Unplanned.



Sure.  Like the shrimp jumping away from the shadow I cast with my hand.


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> yes
> 
> " First learn to Clean your room."



For this conversation I was thinking more about his notion that "people suffer from an excess of meaninglessness" and that "meaning comes from finding the biggest burden you can lift and carrying it"

Didja read his book?


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> Sure.  Like the shrimp jumping away from the shadow I cast with my hand.


don't confuse pain, which we know babies feel, with survival instinct.


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> For this conversation I was thinking more about his notion that "people suffer from an excess of meaninglessness" and that "meaning comes from finding the biggest burden you can lift and carrying it"
> 
> Didja read his book?


No I've just seen some vid clips.  I agree with "meaning comes from finding the biggest burden you can lift and carrying it" but meaning in the sense of societal value and worth, especially for men.  Men need to work, be productive, be usefully busy.

My grandfather use to say, "a man without proper purpose is dangerous".


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> For this conversation I was thinking more about his notion that "people suffer from an excess of meaninglessness" and that "meaning comes from finding the biggest burden you can lift and carrying it"
> 
> Didja read his book?




I did find a poem I wrote for my youngest son when he graduated.  I have always pushed both my boys to do just a little more than I thought they could.  Neither of them EVER disappointed me.

*       Always Do Hard Things*

It is tough and takes much work,
To go against the grain.
To be the one who chooses best,
The man who much will gain.​
Shoulder down and to the wheel,
Can build an ethic fine.
Elbow grease used on the job,
Will make the outcome shine.​
Many take the path of ease,
And waste the balance of.
The time and talents given them,
By the Great and Mighty God.​
Easy is the world’s own way,
And you can also choose.
To be the man who falls in line,
But you will also loose.​
The gifts that God will give,
To him sees the need.
And picks the task that no one wants,
Then presses on with speed.​
The world will laugh and question you.​                                          About the path you make.
They will tell you all the time,
Of an easy path to take.​
I challenge you, while you are young,
To choose the tasks that bring,
Heavy thought and pouring sweat,
And always do hard things.​


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> I did find a poem I wrote for my youngest son when he graduated.  I have always pushed both my boys to do just a little more than I thought they could.  Neither of them EVER disappointed me.
> 
> *       Always Do Hard Things*
> 
> ...




Thanks for sharing that.  It's a wonderful poem.

If you think the path of non-belief or atheism is easy then I'll just tell you that it isn't.  If you want I can tell you why, but I'm sure you can imagine how difficult it might be.  You may have dabbled in it yourself.  I won't go so far as Peterson as  to say that an easy path has no value or that only thing of value come from toil.  Some of the finest things in life, like sunrises and sunsets require only to observe.


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

I believe you.  Non belief would be very difficult, I would not go so as to say I have had a time that I did not believe but I was having a hard time with just what to believe.


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> I believe you.  Non belief would be very difficult, I would not go so far as to say I have had a time that I did not believe but I was having a hard time with just what to believe.



I'm working on it myself.  I appreciate our conversations.


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## Israel (Apr 9, 2019)

If I can butt in...with just one thought regarding all I've seen you fellows touch upon especially in the matter of suffering and its perceptions and consequences.

I am inclined to believe that even with what could be considered the "smallest" suffering, were you to remove _all hope_ of its ever resolving...it would in time, as time allowed...grow to as great a torment as might be imagined at the first.

Frustration of all hope I believe, in itself, is actually the greatest torment to the soul...(and that's where "suffering" is experienced.)

Many decades ago I heard/read this (and it has stuck with me as a _truth) _it sorta went

_Suffering =pain+ the perception of its experience_



In trying to find the more precise rendering (if it was well known) I found this (from which it may well have been derived) by a fellow named Shinzen Young:

“_Suffering equals pain_ times resistance.”


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## Madman (Apr 9, 2019)

Israel said:


> If I can butt in...with just one thought regarding all I've seen you fellows touch upon especially in the matter of suffering and its perceptions and consequences.
> 
> I am inclined to believe that even with what could be considered the "smallest" suffering, were you to remove _all hope_ of its ever resolving...it would in time, as time allowed...grow to as great a torment as might be imagined at the first.
> 
> ...


I probably have the most difficult time reconciling suffering and God


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## Israel (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> I probably have the most difficult time reconciling suffering and God


 
I myself cannot. 

But I don't want to derail the conversation.


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## ambush80 (Apr 9, 2019)

Madman said:


> I probably have the most difficult time reconciling suffering and God





Israel said:


> I myself cannot.
> 
> But I don't want to derail the conversation.



It seems to be the hardest problem for Christian Apologists.  It seems like a preference to either believe that "someone has a plan for the suffering" or "there is no plan for the suffering".  I prefer not thinking that someone has some secret plan for the suffering.  Forget that guy.  He's not worth my time.


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## Israel (Apr 9, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> It seems to be the hardest problem for Christian Apologists.  It seems like a preference to either believe that "someone has a plan for the suffering" or "there is no plan for the suffering".  I prefer not thinking that someone has some secret plan for the suffering.  Forget that guy.  He's not worth my time.



I don't believe it to be a _secret plan_...but in the midst of its experience, personally or observed, I am all at a loss of myself "in the experience". 

I could perhaps explain in the most common form, but that would not guarantee any reception or utility...because even my own "explanation" to which my mind assents seems useless in the experience.


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## 660griz (Apr 11, 2019)

When you(me) break it down to the fundamentals. We, as animals, need food, water, air, and not to loose body heat or blood. A deficiency in those would lead to suffering. Diseases can cause suffering too. Other than that, it is all just based on how spoiled we have become. Out of ice for my tea on a hot summer day. Suffering.  No lime for the Corona. Suffering.


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## Madman (Apr 11, 2019)

660griz said:


> When you(me) break it down to the fundamentals. We, as animals, need food, water, air, and not to loose body heat or blood. A deficiency in those would lead to suffering. Diseases can cause suffering too. Other than that, it is all just based on how spoiled we have become. Out of ice for my tea on a hot summer day. Suffering.  No lime for the Corona. Suffering.


I have come to enjoy good food, plenty of rest, and warmth.


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## 660griz (Apr 11, 2019)

Madman said:


> I have come to enjoy good food, plenty of rest, and warmth.


Sometimes, I get so excited at the thought of going to bed, I can't sleep.


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## ambush80 (Apr 11, 2019)

Israel said:


> I don't believe it to be a _secret plan_...but in the midst of its experience, personally or observed, I am all at a loss of myself "in the experience".
> 
> I could perhaps explain in the most common form, but that would not guarantee any reception or utility...because even my own "explanation" to which my mind assents seems useless in the experience.



I've never experienced extreme suffering but I've had enough pain to imagine how any comfort would be welcome in the face of true suffering.  I don't fault people for believing that there's a "point" to their suffering if it brings them some comfort.


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## atlashunter (Apr 19, 2019)

These are difficult questions to wrestle with. What we need is a book that tells us what to think. Even better if we can claim it authoritative so we don’t have to be bothered with any challenges based on reason.


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## ambush80 (Apr 22, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> These are difficult questions to wrestle with. What we need is a book that tells us what to think. Even better if we can claim it authoritative so we don’t have to be bothered with any challenges based on reason.



I sense a bit of sarcasm here but I've actually come to the conclusion that what you describe as an "authoritative source" may actually be quite utilitarian.  If people could rally around the notion that we are all equal or even valuable (though that's a bit of a stretch for me) because it's part of the "design" that's worked into natural law and slough off all the idiotic, dogmatic details of individual religions, we might get along better.


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## Spotlite (Apr 27, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> I've never experienced extreme suffering but I've had enough pain to imagine how any comfort would be welcome in the face of true suffering.  I don't fault people for believing that there's a "point" to their suffering if it brings them some comfort.


Same here on not experiencing extreme suffering. I honestly don’t recall experiencing any level of suffering ever.


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## Israel (May 1, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> These are difficult questions to wrestle with. What we need is a book that tells us what to think. Even better if we can claim it authoritative so we don’t have to be bothered with any challenges based on reason.





ambush80 said:


> I sense a bit of sarcasm here but I've actually come to the conclusion that what you describe as an "authoritative source" may actually be quite utilitarian.  If people could rally around the notion that we are all equal or even valuable (though that's a bit of a stretch for me) because it's part of the "design" that's worked into natural law and slough off all the idiotic, dogmatic details of individual religions, we might get along better.






ambush80 said:


> It seems to be the hardest problem for Christian Apologists.  It seems like a preference to either believe that "someone has a plan for the suffering" or "there is no plan for the suffering".  I prefer not thinking that someone has some secret plan for the suffering.  Forget that guy.  He's not worth my time.





Israel said:


> I don't believe it to be a _secret plan_...but in the midst of its experience, personally or observed, I am all at a loss of myself "in the experience".
> 
> I could perhaps explain in the most common form, but that would not guarantee any reception or utility...because even my own "explanation" to which my mind assents seems useless in the experience.



Ain't it kinda funny we don't do the same with pleasure?
Wake up with a roaring headache and immediately we commonly "want to do something about it". It may be from "mental note: don't mix wine and Bourbon" pass me the Advil...to "I better check my blood pressure" pass me the Diovan. Or scores of myriad other responses and actions...including prayer. My point is not to encompass every possibility and iteration of response or endorse any over any other.

It's the far more basic observation that pain and/or suffering (though I do not equate them) call for investigation and resolution in a manner that their absence do not. Very rarely might we hear a talk or treatise on "The problem with pleasure and how to resolve it". Or "The problem of the absence of suffering..."

Whatever our baseline normal is to us...is normal to us, and deviations (generally) into what we personally consider _the negative _side in experience (again, generally) call for addressing somehow. Attention...somehow.

Madman makes the observation:



> Suffering can be very motivational, evolutionary or designed in, another topic too, either way I believe humans are motivated toward comfort.



And no less Grizz:



> When you(me) break it down to the fundamentals. We, as animals, need food, water, air, and not to loose body heat or blood. A deficiency in those would lead to suffering. Diseases can cause suffering too. Other than that, it is all just based on how spoiled we have become. Out of ice for my tea on a hot summer day. Suffering.  No lime for the Corona. Suffering.



Does the guy get up off the hammock and go in search of a lime? How much "suffering" will he bear? Is it "real suffering"? To him it may be...or he may be the guy who says "Oh, no lime? (He still retains powers of observation and knowledge of previous experience) "No matter...nothing can spoil this view of the breakers rolling in..." Or, he may not get up, may not say that and bellyache on and on about how this hotel doesn't know how to serve up a Corona. He may be in his kitchen "Durn, why didn't I tell the wife (or remember myself) never pick up a case of Corona without stopping at the produce aisle" If he "suffers enough" the cause will be searched out...or what he thinks it is or may be. But _he probably will not say_ "I wonder why this hammock is so darn comfortable".

Yeah suffering gets our attention in a way its absence does not. And surely no one wants to "solve the _problem of pleasure_..." or _comfort_ as Madman says. "No! leave that alone, don't go messing with it!" "Don't start examining the stretch factor of the hammock's fibers while I'm lying in it! You're disturbing me." Or, to Masters and Johnson..."no, you ain't gonna fillet me to see what nerves carry what impulses while I'm doing this, if you can do it "non invasively" fine...but otherwise, I'm out!"

But certain diseases? "Cut me open and cut it all out Doc, I'm all in with the plan".

We are very willing in some circumstance to deconstruct certain things...but others...



> For this conversation I was thinking more about his notion that "people suffer from an excess of meaninglessness" and that "meaning comes from finding the biggest burden you can lift and carrying it"



You (Ambush) seem to be quoting JBP there, no? I'm guessing in context you are. And I realize you haven't said you either agree or disagree...just a consideration of what he says.

But if he retains this statement without further yielding of himself to further deconstruction past another thing I have heard him say regarding the "tragedy of life" I might have issue. For if by tragedy he ultimately means "life itself" is irredeemably tragic to those in its experience (and tragic would require definition), then I can no more see his prescription to "lifting the heaviest burden" as just another form of do your best to add/make some meaning _to it yourself. _

No more than "make your own meaning".

And this is really no more than "do what works for you" which no man can forbid, but gets us surrendering to "life has no meaning (except as tragedy) and fabricate whatever will get you through"...which is the commonest objection the believer faces (yes Atlashunter)... even _wrestling with it within himself. _

"Do I invent solely upon a pleasure principle and nothing more?" Am I just the shrimp running from shadow? The inevitability of a shadow I know must come (what JBP might also call the "tragedy of consciousness", that_ includes death._.. I don't know for certain) or is "death" in whatever form it presents no more than a signal...ordained by a consciousness to consciousness, as just that, and no more than that...signal...(and I am having these questions satisfactorily answered in Jesus Christ) who knows all too well the quandary of a thing that finds itself with a predilection toward pleasure and invention, and being bent _by them, _with a likewise shunning of suffering that at every step to _know truth_...hobbles.

Without shame I say there is an intervention for the hobbling. Am I surprised at "crutch" accusation? Ha ha...you'd have to see the amphitheater full of the discarded ones I had invented to cover my crippled estate in the midst of what was only experienced as life's predation upon my consciousness...with maws of death opened wide and final. How could I know all meaning...was in my being taken...prey? I had to be taken captive. By what has _no need to be_, at all. I was not the live fearing death, I was the dead...fearing life. Maneuvered always to pleasure, maneuvered always away from suffering (as death's signpost), and mistaking "motions" sensed (and _even thinking_) perceived...as life.  

Ambush (again) I remember your dismissal of JBP's seeking to explain/make sense of resurrection (specifically in regard to Jesus Christ) as sorta silly (by explanation of) "who knows what could happen if the "right" mix of life and death were in a man"...not quoted verbatim. But I think you probably remember saying it was just too odd a concept...and silly. And it is not that I endorse that particular seeing apart from seeking out JBP for what he may mean in it. Nevertheless, I believe, at that time you found it silly.

Yet, you have said something very recently that stays with me, and not un-along those very lines to me "in spirit"...in regards to suffering (which is but a shadow of death)



> It's poetic in it's brutality in a way. Seems man cannot avoid _suffering_. I can find utility in that. I can't imagine what a force of the _Prime_ _Mover_'s magnitude might _make_ of that situation.



Now, because JBP doesn't answer my few communications, I may never know of him, till he does.

But you? That's a considerable thing to consider, which I do every day, what value is any suffering...and particularly when I experience it as (to me) most needless and unwanted of all, my own (what truly little I do). How easily I lift my hand to escape.

What could the



> force of the _Prime_ _Mover_'s magnitude might _make_ of that situation



toward a man...who quite able to lift his hand to escape, doesn't?

What if he didn't resort to _his power of life _for escape (which is always presently easiest)...but instead...did exactly as he said...exposed fully his soul to death? And this, not for himself...but to swallow it fully on behalf of others?

Yes...I can't imagine either what a

_



			force of the Prime Mover's magnitude might make of that situation
		
Click to expand...

_
But, I am not to. My command is to believe it. And watch the work. I am in learning.

I gave up much trying to discern what is miracle...what is not, I can't reconcile that anything is...and that I am here...even wondering about it. Of course I am no _miracle_ to anyone else...that would be the most absurd thing to believe...that I am "supposed to be"...to such extent as _being purposed_. Yet here's what's funny...I can't escape that each and every one of you has perfectly purposed effect...upon me.

You know, I can't even walk down the street and not experience purposed effects. How do I know? Because I experience them.  

I am the affected...of no effect.


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