# The Rapture



## tomtlb66

Just wanted to get any opinions on the rapture. Some believe in the raptrue and some do not. Just wanted to hear from you guys and see what everyone believes. I personally believe in the rapture.


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## Jeff Raines

Doesn't matter what I believe concerning the rapture.What matters is that I'm prepared if it should happen.


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## tell sackett

Oh man, you didn't!

 Ok, I'll  bite. I assume you are talking about the pre-trib harpazo/catching up(that "r" word causes some folks to have conniptions on here. If you are, then yes,I believe in it also. Christ is coming back for His bride(the church) before the tribulation begins that it might be presented to Him without spot or blemish, not after going through the tribulation.

Now, pass the


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## tell sackett

Jeff Raines said:


> Doesn't matter what I believe concerning the rapture.What matters is that I'm prepared if it should happen.


This is very true.


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## thedeacon

Christ is coming back to receive his own. There is no questions about that to the Christian.

I cannot find the word rapture in the Bible and I do not use it but I do believe that Jesus will return. He said; I go to prepare a place for you and if I go I will return again.

I believe he has prepared a place of eternal rest for every single person in the world. It is up to us to prepare ourselves to inherit that eternal home.

Amen


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## mtnwoman

thedeacon said:


> Christ is coming back to receive his own. There is no questions about that to the Christian.
> 
> I cannot find the word rapture in the Bible and I do not use it but I do believe that Jesus will return. He said; I go to prepare a place for you and if I go I will return again.
> 
> I believe he has prepared a place of eternal rest for every single person in the world. It is up to us to prepare ourselves to inherit that eternal home.
> 
> Amen



Rapture, yes I believe. Pretribe, as I see it and hope for it. But I'll take whatever it ends up being...to be caught up with my Lord, yep anytime, anyway. 

Rapture isn't in the bible, but caught up is... to be caught up into something/somewhere else/carrying off.

rapture - –noun 1. ecstatic joy or delight; joyful ecstasy. 
2. Often, raptures. an utterance or expression of ecstatic delight. 
3. the carrying of a person to another place or sphere of existence. 
4. the Rapture, Theology. the experience, anticipated by some fundamentalist Christians, of meeting Christ midway in the air upon his return to earth. 
5. Archaic. the act of carrying off.


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## Lowjack

Read Matthew 24 and see Jesus' very words he says the raptured will be after the great tribulation days.

Don't care what others interpret, The Very God who will come for His People said when it will be, so I won't listen to  some cultist such as Darby and put my hopes on him instead of Christ.
But we know by the signs that day is near.


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## brantd

I dont have enough Faith not to believe in it..lol

Paraphrasing-
"In a moment in a twinkling of an eye the trumph of god shall sound and the dead in christ will rise and then those that remain shall be caught up after them."  

Check out www.JudgementJourney.com  - a ministry I am a part of for the 8 th year now...its awesome...


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## tomtlb66

Thanks for all the input, I really enjoy fellowshipping with you guys. Sorry about my typing, it pretty much stinks.


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## Ronnie T

Amen Christ will return and take care of things.
He'll claim His church.
Gonna be a judgement.

But I personally don't think Christ will set foot upon the earth.
His kingdom is not physical.
But, what do I know?
I just want to be with Him.


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## redneckcamo

I believe when that trumpet sounds  the resurection of the sainted dead happens an those of us who are alive an remain will be caught up to be with the Lord Jesus  before the great tribulation period .


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## pigpen1

Ronnie T said:


> Amen Christ will return and take care of things.
> He'll claim His church.
> Gonna be a judgement.
> 
> But I personally don't think Christ will set foot upon the earth.
> His kingdom is not physical.
> But, what do I know?
> I just want to be with Him.



 Amen Ronnie!!!

Matt 24:29-31

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Can someone define AFTER???????


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## farmasis

thedeacon said:


> Christ is coming back to receive his own. There is no questions about that to the Christian.
> 
> I cannot find the word rapture in the Bible and I do not use it but I do believe that Jesus will return. He said; I go to prepare a place for you and if I go I will return again.
> 
> I believe he has prepared a place of eternal rest for every single person in the world. It is up to us to prepare ourselves to inherit that eternal home.
> 
> Amen


 
Do you use the word trinity, because you will not find it there either.


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## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Read Matthew 24 and see Jesus' very words he says the raptured will be after the great tribulation days.
> 
> Don't care what others interpret, The Very God who will come for His People said when it will be, so I won't listen to some cultist such as Darby and put my hopes on him instead of Christ.
> But we know by the signs that day is near.


 
That is not the rapture, that is the second coming.


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## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Read Matthew 24 and see Jesus' very words he says the raptured will be after the great tribulation days.
> 
> Don't care what others interpret, The Very God who will come for His People said when it will be, so I won't listen to some cultist such as Darby and put my hopes on him instead of Christ.
> But we know by the signs that day is near.


 

The Bible is clear that a rapture will happen.

I meant to ask you what you thought of this statement, since it was posted by you.

"It is a nation that is being gathered today for the tribulation in their original homeland Israel, they are gathered first in unbelief until that fateful day where in Romans 11 Paul says they will all be saved, after the fullness of the gentiles has come in. The Church (made up of both Jews and Gentiles) and is dealt with differently than the nation of Israel, God obviously has a different plan for both. "


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## squirrelhunter912

i believe that Christ will come back with every being of my body but because the Bible said so if the Bible didn't say it then no i would not believe i do think that he will come and take all the beings babptized in his name but we should be prepared to se him


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## thedeacon

farmasis said:


> Do you use the word trinity, because you will not find it there either.



I have used the word trinity, the God Heads, Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, The Heavenly Three.

Wasn't scolding anyone for their use of the word just said what I did. I don't use the word Reverend but would not condemn someone else for using it.

I do believe Christ is coming again and I do believe all the church, "Jew and Gentile if they are Christians" will be treated and judged the same. God is no respector of persons.


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## redneckcamo

farmasis said:


> That is not the rapture, that is the second coming.



I agree !


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## pigpen1

redneckcamo said:


> I agree !



 What about in the same chapter where it say there shall be two in the field, one shall be taken and the other one left??? 

  BTW Where's the white horse??????? it says Clouds....I thought you Premill's said the second coming was on a Literal White Horse with a Literal Metal Sword hanging out of his mouth???


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## dawg2

"Rapture" is a new invention from the 1800's.  Makes for a good fiction book series.


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## pigpen1

dawg2 said:


> "Rapture" is a new invention from the 1800's.  Makes for a good fiction book series.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man

dawg2 said:


> "Rapture" is a new invention from the 1800's.  Makes for a good fiction book series.



Correct!


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## redneckcamo

pigpen1 said:


> What about in the same chapter where it say there shall be two in the field, one shall be taken and the other one left???
> 
> BTW Where's the white horse??????? it says Clouds....I thought you Premill's said the second coming was on a Literal White Horse with a Literal Metal Sword hanging out of his mouth???



I see the heretical mudslinger has come on the scene ! 

an I believe I will give him the answer he deserves !

thank the Lord for the ignore feature ;\


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## pigpen1

redneckcamo said:


> I see the heretical mudslinger has come on the scene !
> 
> an I believe I will give him the answer he deserves !



 Just a question??????? If you don't have a answer thats fine.


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## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> What about in the same chapter where it say there shall be two in the field, one shall be taken and the other one left???
> 
> BTW Where's the white horse??????? it says Clouds....I thought you Premill's said the second coming was on a Literal White Horse with a Literal Metal Sword hanging out of his mouth???


 
On a horse on a cloud... 

I try and take the Bible literally as possible. Is the reference on a horse in Revelation meant as symbolism for battle or literally on a horse? We don't know.


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## farmasis

dawg2 said:


> "Rapture" is a new invention from the 1800's. Makes for a good fiction book series.


 
Actually, I think I have documented premillenialism ideas from the first and second century. However, those who do not believe in a rapture love this misguided argument.


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## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> On a horse on a cloud...
> 
> I try and take the Bible literally as possible. Is the reference on a horse in Revelation meant as symbolism for battle or literally on a horse? We don't know.



  In a previous discussion that you and I had you said that it was Literial....HUMM????


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## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> In a previous discussion that you and I had you said that it was Literial....HUMM????


 

Like I said, I tend to take it literal.


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## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> On a horse on a cloud...
> 
> I try and take the Bible literally as possible. Is the reference on a horse in Revelation meant as symbolism for battle or literally on a horse? We don't know.







farmasis said:


> Like I said, I tend to take it literal.



 Well who is WE?


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## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Well who is WE?


 
Everyone.

Do you know?


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## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Everyone.
> 
> Do you know?



 Why Yes...Acts 1:9-11

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.KJV


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## tell sackett

tomtlb66,
See what I mean?
Do you like your's with extra butter?


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## Ronnie T

For me, Jesus' teaching makes it clear(for me) that He came to this world to become the sacrafice for the sins of the world; to teach us about God; to give us an example of how to live; to instruct us in the new law of love.

He did not come to establish a kingdom upon the earth.  He clearly made that statement.

He taugh the virgins to have their lamps ready because you better be ready when Christ returns.

Some of you acknowledge that scripture doesn't use the word rapture, and then you use it.  If the scripture doesn't use rapture, please says it the way the scripture says it.  That way we people who go by the scripture will know what you're talking about.

Much of what people expect will happen in the future has already happened.  Long long ago.

Now I await the coming of the Lord to gather up His church and take us home.  The rest will be judged and sent to the lake of fire.

Christ doesn't want the planet.
He lowered himself once.  That's all we get.

At least, that's what I think.
It'll all work itself out.


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## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Why Yes...Acts 1:9-11
> 
> 9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
> 
> 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
> 
> 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.KJV


 
In a like manner.

That doesn't mean the exact manner.

Just as Revelation says he is returning on a horse.

So, why not on a horse on the clouds?


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## farmasis

tell sackett said:


> tomtlb66,
> See what I mean?
> Do you like your's with extra butter?


 
Next, let's debate Calvinism.....again......


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## farmasis

> He did not come to establish a kingdom upon the earth. He clearly made that statement.


 
He did? Where?



> Some of you acknowledge that scripture doesn't use the word rapture, and then you use it. If the scripture doesn't use rapture, please says it the way the scripture says it. That way we people who go by the scripture will know what you're talking about.


 
Again, we say trinity, and it is not in the Bible. But, it is a Biblical concept. If anyone does not know what the rapture is, they can ask.



> Much of what people expect will happen in the future has already happened. Long long ago.


 
Please elaborate this point for me.



> Christ doesn't want the planet.
> He lowered himself once. That's all we get.


 
Did he not say the meek will inherit the earth?


What about the millenial reign? Clearly it is stated to be on earth, so how do you explain it away?

*<SUP>4</SUP>* And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then _I saw_ the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received _his_ mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> thousand years. <SUP id=en-NKJV-31040 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This _is_ the first resurrection. <SUP id=en-NKJV-31041 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> Blessed and holy _is_ he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20)


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## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> He did? Where?



Here John 18:36

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.KJV

And here..Luke 17:20-21

20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:

21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
KJV






farmasis said:


> What about the millenial reign? Clearly it is stated to be on earth, so how do you explain it away?
> 
> *<SUP>4</SUP>* And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then _I saw_ the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received _his_ mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> thousand years. <SUP id=en-NKJV-31040 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This _is_ the first resurrection. <SUP id=en-NKJV-31041 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> Blessed and holy _is_ he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20)



 Souls??????? By your teaching I thought that they would be in glorified bodies during this time???


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## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> That is not the rapture, that is the second coming.


There is no other coming , rapture is not in the bible, Jesus is not coming 3 times that is just a theory by a Cultist name Darby.
It will be one event the dead and the living taken up to the clouds and the descending to Earth in Jerusalem, His feet will touch the mount  and all Jews will run to him, they will see him and his wounds and then realize who he is and there shall be the mourning and mashing of teeth, one event.


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## Lowjack

pigpen1 said:


>



That is Correct, it sells a lot of books.


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## Lowjack

http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm


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## pigpen1

Lowjack said:


> http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm



 Good Reading LowJack, Thank you.


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## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Here John 18:36
> 
> 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.KJV


 
Key word...now.



> And here..Luke 17:20-21
> 
> 20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
> 
> 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
> KJV


 
Neither of those negate an earthly kindgom.
How about promises made by God in the Bible?

*<SUP>30</SUP>*But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. <SUP id=en-NIV-24917 class=versenum>*31*</SUP>You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. <SUP id=en-NIV-24918 class=versenum>*32*</SUP>He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, <SUP id=en-NIV-24919 class=versenum>*33*</SUP>and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Luke 1)
*<SUP></SUP>* 
*<SUP>14</SUP>* ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah: 
       <SUP id=en-NKJV-19787 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> ‘ In those days and at that time 
      I will cause to grow up to David 
      A Branch of righteousness; 
He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. (Jer 33)

  <SUP id=en-NKJV-18116 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> Then the moon will be disgraced 
      And the sun ashamed; 
 For the LORD of hosts will reign 
      On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem 
      And before His elders, gloriously. (Is 24)

  “ You are worthy to take the scroll, 
      And to open its seals; 
      For You were slain, 
      And have redeemed us to God by Your blood 
      Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 
       <SUP id=en-NKJV-30786 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> And have made us<SUP class=footnote value='[d]'>[d]</SUP> kings<SUP class=footnote value='[e]'>[e]</SUP> and priests to our God; 
And we<SUP class=footnote value='[f]'>[f]</SUP> shall reign on the earth.” (Rev 5)

   <SUP id=en-NKJV-23005 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> “ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! 
      Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem! 
      Behold, your King is coming to you; 
      ....He shall speak peace to the nations; 
His dominion _shall be_ ‘from sea to sea, 
      And from the River to the ends of the earth. (Zec 9)

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-22618 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
_That_ the mountain of the LORD’s house 
      Shall be established on the top of the mountains, 
      And shall be exalted above the hills; 
     .... For out of Zion the law shall go forth, 
      And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. ....
 So the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion 
      From now on, even forever. (Micah 4)

....got more if you need them.




> Souls??????? By your teaching I thought that they would be in glorified bodies during this time???


 
This is not the church.

Then _I saw_ the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received _his_ mark on their foreheads or on their hands.


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## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/cathouse/darby.htm


 

How about enlightening yourself some more....

http://www.theopedia.com/Premillennialism

http://www.biblicist.org/bible/premil.shtml

http://ldolphin.org/premillhist.html


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## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> There is no other coming , rapture is not in the bible, Jesus is not coming 3 times that is just a theory by a Cultist name Darby.
> It will be one event the dead and the living taken up to the clouds and the descending to Earth in Jerusalem, His feet will touch the mount and all Jews will run to him, they will see him and his wounds and then realize who he is and there shall be the mourning and mashing of teeth, one event.


 
Yet another topic you are incorrect on.

Christ will come back-- not touch the earth, but call his bride to him to prepare for a feast. The church will be removed prior to tribulation as promised in Rev 3. The church will return with Christ to set up Christ's millennial reign.


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## ddd-shooter

I think this is a good time to remind everyone here that nobody has a 100% perfect theology about the end times. 
I am glad I know that I will be ready with oil in my lamp!


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## farmasis

ddd-shooter said:


> I think this is a good time to remind everyone here that nobody has a 100% perfect theology about the end times.
> I am glad I know that I will be ready with oil in my lamp!


 
I try to be respectful of others beliefs, but am human and when attacked, attack back. Unlike LJ, I still sin.


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## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Key word...now.
> 
> 
> 
> Neither of those negate an earthly kindgom.
> How about promises made by God in the Bible?
> 
> *<SUP>30</SUP>*But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, you have found favor with God. <SUP id=en-NIV-24917 class=versenum>*31*</SUP>You will be with child and give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus. <SUP id=en-NIV-24918 class=versenum>*32*</SUP>He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, <SUP id=en-NIV-24919 class=versenum>*33*</SUP>and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever; his kingdom will never end." (Luke 1)
> *<SUP></SUP>*
> *<SUP>14</SUP>* ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that I will perform that good thing which I have promised to the house of Israel and to the house of Judah:
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-19787 class=versenum>*15*</SUP> ‘ In those days and at that time
> I will cause to grow up to David
> A Branch of righteousness;
> He shall execute judgment and righteousness in the earth. (Jer 33)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-18116 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> Then the moon will be disgraced
> And the sun ashamed;
> For the LORD of hosts will reign
> On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
> And before His elders, gloriously. (Is 24)
> 
> “ You are worthy to take the scroll,
> And to open its seals;
> For You were slain,
> And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
> Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-30786 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> And have made us<SUP class=footnote value='[d]'>[d]</SUP> kings<SUP class=footnote value='[e]'>[e]</SUP> and priests to our God;  And we<SUP class=footnote value='[f]'>[f]</SUP> shall reign on the earth.” (Rev 5)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-23005 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> “ Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion!
> Shout, O daughter of Jerusalem!
> Behold, your King is coming to you;
> ....He shall speak peace to the nations;
> His dominion _shall be_ ‘from sea to sea,
> And from the River to the ends of the earth. (Zec 9)
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-22618 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
> _That_ the mountain of the LORD’s house
> Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
> And shall be exalted above the hills;
> .... For out of Zion the law shall go forth,
> And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. ....
> So the LORD will reign over them in Mount Zion
> From now on, even forever. (Micah 4)
> 
> ....got more if you need them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is not the church.
> 
> Then _I saw_ the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received _his_ mark on their foreheads or on their hands.



 Already Happened...Rev 1:5-9

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV


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## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Yet another topic you are incorrect on.
> 
> Christ will come back-- not touch the earth, but call his bride to him to prepare for a feast. The church will be removed prior to tribulation as promised in Rev 3. The church will return with Christ to set up Christ's millennial reign.


Speculations and Bible twisting is how Darby arrived to those Conclusions, but I tell you I hope you are right, I wouldn't want to be caught as an unbeliever in a tribulation.
Anyways let's assume for a minute that Darby was right, and Jesus removes the Righteous from earth which the bible Teaches the contrary that the wicked must be removed so that the righteous may live in peace,But it doesn't matter to me I'm going, whether Pre trib, mid trib or Post trib I'm going, this is not a doctrine of salvation.


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## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Already Happened...Rev 1:5-9
> 
> 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
> KJV


 
Has not happened....

*<SUP>21</SUP>* For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  (Matt 24)

There has been tribulation, but not the GREAT tribulation.

Now, Reveltion plainly states that God will set up his kingdom on earth and will bind Satan for 1000 years. Satan has not been bound, thus no millennial reign yet. Then, Satan will be released and will gather from the nations for one final battle, then will be thrown in the lake of fire.

I think we should be very careful with Revelation. That is why I take it literal because John adds a warning..

*<SUP>18</SUP>* For<SUP class=footnote value='[i]'>[i]</SUP> I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add<SUP class=footnote value='[j]'>[j]</SUP> to him the plagues that are written in this book; <SUP id=en-NKJV-31096 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away<SUP class=footnote value='[k]'>[k]</SUP> his part from the Book<SUP class=footnote value='[l]'>[l]</SUP> of Life, from the holy city, and _from_ the things which are written in this book. (Rev. 22)


----------



## Lowjack

The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth Proverbs 10
Guess I'm wrong yet again.

Proverbs 25:4-5 (KJV):
4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.
Proverbs 10:27-30: 
27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.
28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.

". . . Evildoers themselves will be cut off, 
But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth [including the resurrected]. 
And just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more . . . 
But the meek ones themselves *will possess the earth*, 
And will indeed find their *exquisite delight* in the abundance of peace." --Psalms 37:9-11

So was Jesus wrong also in your opinion ?.
13:24  Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

13:25  But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

13:26  But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.

13:27  So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

13:28  He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

13:29  But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


----------



## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Speculations and Bible twisting is how Darby arrived to those Conclusions, but I tell you I hope you are right, I wouldn't want to be caught as an unbeliever in a tribulation.
> Anyways let's assume for a minute that Darby was right, and Jesus removes the Righteous from earth which the bible Teaches the contrary that the wicked must be removed so that the righteous may live in peace,But it doesn't matter to me I'm going, whether Pre trib, mid trib or Post trib I'm going, this is not a doctrine of salvation.


 
Like I have said, pretrib best fits my end of times beliefs. But, if I am wrong and have to endure tribulation, so be it. Whether Jesus removes me prior to tribulation or after is OK with me, long as I am with Him.

We also believe the wicked are removed, but after the second coming.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Has not happened....
> 
> 
> 
> Now, Reveltion plainly states that God will set up his kingdom on earth and will bind Satan for 1000 years. Satan has not been bound, thus no millennial reign yet. Then, Satan will be released and will gather from the nations for one final battle, then will be thrown in the lake of fire.
> 
> I think we should be very careful with Revelation. That is why I take it literal because John adds a warning..
> 
> *<SUP>18</SUP>* For<SUP class=footnote value='[i]'>[i]</SUP> I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add<SUP class=footnote value='[j]'>[j]</SUP> to him the plagues that are written in this book; <SUP id=en-NKJV-31096 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away<SUP class=footnote value='[k]'>[k]</SUP> his part from the Book<SUP class=footnote value='[l]'>[l]</SUP> of Life, from the holy city, and _from_ the things which are written in this book. (Rev. 22)



Matt 12:26-29

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
KJV

 How was Christ casting out Devils?

 And you need to read this closely, Satan lost control and power with the coming of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Satan does not have power over the Spirit of God, thus he is bound by this. It he powerless? NO, but where the Spirit of God is, he is powerless. Thus the Holy Ghost is the chain that binds satan.


----------



## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth Proverbs 10
> Guess I'm wrong yet again.
> 
> Proverbs 25:4-5 (KJV):
> 4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
> 5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.
> Proverbs 10:27-30:
> 27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.
> 28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
> 29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
> 30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.


 
Not wrong, just misguided.

Righteous will not be removed from the millennial kingdom.

The church will be removed for a while.

*<SUP>10</SUP>* Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)

God removes the righteous before his wrath, just like in the days of Lot and Noah. No, he didn't remove them from the world, but from destruction. (Matt 24:38-40) and (Luke 17:26-37)


----------



## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Not wrong, just misguided.
> REALLY How Come You didn't quote what Jesus said ?
> 
> Righteous will not be removed from the millennial kingdom.
> That's Conradicting Jesus teaching of the Wheat and the TAres and all the verses I quoted you ,where it says the wicked need to be removed first before the Kingdom.
> 
> The church will be removed for a while.
> NO BIBLE VERSE SAYS THAT.
> 
> *<SUP>10</SUP>* Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)
> That was said to the Church Of Philadelphia a real Church taht existed and was preserved during the Roman Persecution as promised in this verse by Our Lord, another wrong application here and out of context, preserving from tribulation on earth is what God has done time after time beginning with Noah.
> 
> 
> God removes the righteous before his wrath, just like in the days of Lot and Noah. No, he didn't remove them from the world, but from destruction. (Matt 24:38-40) and (Luke 17:26-37)
> Again that Chapter is very Clear when he removes his elect is after the tribulation.
> 
> 
> The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth Proverbs 10
> Guess I'm wrong yet again.
> 
> Proverbs 25:4-5 (KJV):
> 4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
> 5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.
> Proverbs 10:27-30:
> 27 The fear of the LORD prolongeth days: but the years of the wicked shall be shortened.
> 28 The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: but the expectation of the wicked shall perish.
> 29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
> 30 The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth.
> 
> ". . . Evildoers themselves will be cut off,
> But those hoping in Jehovah will possess the earth [including the resurrected].
> And just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more . . .
> But the meek ones themselves *will possess the earth*,
> And will indeed find their *exquisite delight* in the abundance of peace." --Psalms 37:9-11
> __________________


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Matt 12:26-29
> 
> 26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
> 
> 27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
> 
> 28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
> 
> 29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
> KJV
> 
> How was Christ casting out Devils?
> 
> And you need to read this closely, Satan lost control and power with the coming of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Satan does not have power over the Spirit of God, thus he is bound by this. It he powerless? NO, but where the Spirit of God is, he is powerless. Thus the Holy Ghost is the chain that binds satan.


 
No, Revelation says that Satan will be bound for 1000 years.

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-31038 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. (Rev 20)

However, we know Satan is not bound and he does decieve the nations.

*<SUP>3</SUP>* But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back _part_ of the price of the land for yourself? (Acts 5:3)

_*<SUP>17</SUP>* I will deliver you from the_ _Jewish_ _people, as well as_ _from_ _the Gentiles, to whom I now<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> send you, <SUP id=en-NKJV-27838 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> to open their eyes,_ _in order_ _to turn_ _them_ _from darkness to light, and_ _from_ _the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ (Acts 26)_

*<SUP>3</SUP>* For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28455 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28456 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5)

*<SUP>5</SUP>* Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Cor. 7)

*<SUP>10</SUP>* Now whom you forgive anything, I also _forgive._ For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> for your sakes in the presence of Christ, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28832 class=versenum>*11*</SUP> lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2)

*<SUP>18</SUP>* Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us. (1 Thes 2)


----------



## Ronnie T

ddd-shooter said:


> I think this is a good time to remind everyone here that nobody has a 100% perfect theology about the end times.
> I am glad I know that I will be ready with oil in my lamp!




Hey, wait a minute.  Are you insinuating that I might be wrong in some of my intellectual understandings of the scripture??


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Not wrong, just misguided.
> 
> Righteous will not be removed from the millennial kingdom.
> 
> The church will be removed for a while.
> 
> *<SUP>10</SUP>* Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)
> 
> God removes the righteous before his wrath, just like in the days of Lot and Noah. No, he didn't remove them from the world, but from destruction. (Matt 24:38-40) and (Luke 17:26-37)



Show me 1 verse that says Gods people will not have or go through Tribulation........

 BTW, Wrath and Tribulation are not the same, Lots day and Noahs day the wicked faced the wrath and all died. In your view you have the righteous removed and ungodly people being left here, then a multitude of the unrighteous being saved during what you say is wrath from God???? please explain....


----------



## Ronnie T

pigpen1 said:


> Already Happened...Rev 1:5-9
> 
> 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
> 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
> 
> 7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
> 
> 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
> 
> 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
> KJV




I think you're right.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> No, Revelation says that Satan will be bound for 1000 years.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-31038 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. (Rev 20)
> 
> However, we know Satan is not bound and he does decieve the nations.
> 
> *<SUP>3</SUP>* But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back _part_ of the price of the land for yourself? (Acts 5:3)
> 
> _*<SUP>17</SUP>* I will deliver you from the_ _Jewish_ _people, as well as_ _from_ _the Gentiles, to whom I now<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> send you, <SUP id=en-NKJV-27838 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> to open their eyes,_ _in order_ _to turn_ _them_ _from darkness to light, and_ _from_ _the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ (Acts 26)_
> 
> *<SUP>3</SUP>* For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28455 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28456 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. (1 Cor. 5)
> 
> *<SUP>5</SUP>* Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. (1 Cor. 7)
> 
> *<SUP>10</SUP>* Now whom you forgive anything, I also _forgive._ For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> for your sakes in the presence of Christ, <SUP id=en-NKJV-28832 class=versenum>*11*</SUP> lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2)
> 
> *<SUP>18</SUP>* Therefore we wanted to come to you—even I, Paul, time and again—but Satan hindered us. (1 Thes 2)



 Farmasis, at the times before and until the Holy ghost came unto the gentiles, all nations [except those of Jews]were blinded of the true God, but after the Holy Ghost and the commission of Christ the Gospel has went to all Nations..... If you are saying satan has complete control and power, your are taking away from Christ and His Body the Church.


----------



## Ronnie T

In order for me to believe the tribulation doctrine of the modernist I would have to ignore all the other NT scripture that addresses Christ's return, the judgement, and our preparations for it.

But what ever happens, I'm thankful that God has all the power and isn't limited by my understands.


----------



## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> farmasis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Not wrong, just misguided.
> REALLY How Come You didn't quote what Jesus said ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Righteous will not be removed from the millennial kingdom.
> That's Conradicting Jesus teaching of the Wheat and the TAres and all the verses I quoted you ,where it says the wicked need to be removed first before the Kingdom.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> How so? The wicked will be removed before he sets up his kingdom. We actually agree.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The church will be removed for a while.
> NO BIBLE VERSE SAYS THAT.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Rev 3:10
> 
> *<SUP>
> 
> 
> 
> 10
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> </SUP>
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *
> 
> 
> 
> Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)
> That was said to the Church Of Philadelphia a real Church taht existed and was preserved during the Roman Persecution as promised in this verse by Our Lord, another wrong application here and out of context, preserving from tribulation on earth is what God has done time after time beginning with Noah.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> We know that the one who restrains (the Holy Spirit) must be removed for the anti-Christ to be revealed. We are promised the Holy Spirit will never leave us. Where He goes, we go. Applying the promise of the church of Philidelphia, we are removed from the tribulation because we did keep his commandments. The Great Tribulation is God pouring our His wrath on earth, and we are promised to be kept from His wrath.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> God removes the righteous before his wrath, just like in the days of Lot and Noah. No, he didn't remove them from the world, but from destruction. (Matt 24:38-40) and (Luke 17:26-37)
> Again that Chapter is very Clear when he removes his elect is after the tribulation.
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No he did not, he removed Noah, then flooded the world. He removed Lot, them rained fire.
Click to expand...


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Farmasis, at the times before and until the Holy ghost came unto the gentiles, all nations [except those of Jews]were blinded of the true God, but after the Holy Ghost and the commission of Christ the Gospel has went to all Nations..... If you are saying satan has complete control and power, your are taking away from Christ and His Body the Church.


 
I am not saying he has complete control. I am saying he is not bound, shut up and does not have a seal on him. He is very active.


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Show me 1 verse that says Gods people will not have or go through Tribulation........


 
10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)

34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[c] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21)

9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5)

7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—  9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (2 Peter 2)

9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?” 
14 And I said to him, “Sir,* you know.” 
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7)




			BTW, Wrath and Tribulation are not the same,
		
Click to expand...

 
Funny, God refers to his bowls of wrath that will come during the Great Tribulation.

Tribulation is refered to as wrath in Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:10, 19; 15:1,7




			Lots day and Noahs day the wicked faced the wrath and all died. In your view you have the righteous removed and ungodly people being left here, then a multitude of the unrighteous being saved during what you say is wrath from God???? please explain....
		
Click to expand...

 
I do not know where you got that. I can't explain that.*


----------



## Jeff Raines

pigpen1 said:


> What about in the same chapter where it say there shall be two in the field, one shall be taken and the other one left???



40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Maybe Jesus was just speaking of 1 physical person here,but seeing the soul inside referred to them as 2.The soul leaves the body and goes to Heaven, whereas the physical body remains here.


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> What about in the same chapter where it say there shall be two in the field, one shall be taken and the other one left???


 
What about it?


----------



## Diogenes

“Just wanted to get any opinions on the rapture.”

Well, speaking only of last night, it seems like wordless exclamations of unnamable ecstasy are certainly achievable with proper practice, but the whole bit about meeting someone midway in the air upon their return is way trickier than one might think . . .


----------



## ddd-shooter

Diogenes said:


> Well, speaking only of last night, it seems like wordless exclamations of unnamable ecstasy are certainly achievable with proper practice, but the whole bit about meeting someone midway in the air upon their return is way trickier than one might think . . .



Lol...I actually haven't heard the word used in that sense in forever. 
Thank the Lord I focus on spiritual matters much more now...


----------



## mtnwoman

farmasis said:


> That is not the rapture, that is the second coming.



I agree, too.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> 10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Rev 3)
> 
> 34 “But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. 35 For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[c] to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21)
> 
> 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. (Romans 5)
> 
> 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)—  9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (2 Peter 2)
> 
> 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”
> 13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
> 14 And I said to him, “Sir,* you know.”
> So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. (Rev 7)
> 
> 
> 
> Funny, God refers to his bowls of wrath that will come during the Great Tribulation.
> 
> Tribulation is refered to as wrath in Rev. 6:16-17; 11:18; 14:10, 19; 15:1,7
> 
> 
> *


*

1 Thess 3:4

4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation ; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
KJV

 What is "IT" refering to?


 Rom 5:3

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
KJV

Rom 12:12

12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation ; continuing instant in prayer;
KJV

2 Cor 7:4

4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation .KJV

Rev 1:9

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation , and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV


John 16:33

33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation : but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
KJV

We are not promised to not face tribulation... Have you not ever read of the suffering of the first century Christians??? or the accounts of Josephus in 66-70 a.d.?  You are saying that we are better than them.*


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> 1 Thess 3:4
> 
> 4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation ; even as it came to pass, and ye know.
> KJV
> 
> What is "IT" refering to?
> 
> 
> Rom 5:3
> 
> 3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
> KJV
> 
> Rom 12:12
> 
> 12 Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation ; continuing instant in prayer;
> KJV
> 
> 2 Cor 7:4
> 
> 4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation .KJV
> 
> Rev 1:9
> 
> 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation , and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
> KJV
> 
> 
> John 16:33
> 
> 33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation : but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
> KJV
> 
> We are not promised to not face tribulation... Have you not ever read of the suffering of the first century Christians??? or the accounts of Josephus in 66-70 a.d.? You are saying that we are better than them.


 
We are not promised to not face tribulation. We are promised to not face the Great Tribulation.


----------



## pigpen1

pigpen1 said:


> BTW, Wrath and Tribulation are not the same, Lots day and Noahs day the wicked faced the wrath and all died. In your view you have the righteous removed and ungodly people being left here, then a multitude of the unrighteous being saved during what you say is wrath from God???? please explain....





farmasis said:


> I do not know where you got that. I can't explain that.



You said it right here....



farmasis said:


> God removes the righteous before his wrath, just like in the days of Lot and Noah. No, he didn't remove them from the world, but from destruction. (Matt 24:38-40) and (Luke 17:26-37)



 And if you believe in a great Tribulation after the "rapture" and in this verse Rev 7:14 says there is a group which no man could number that got saved during the great tribulation, you are teaching of unrighteous people who are facing Gods "Wrath" that are getting another opportunity to be saved....

 What you are teaching is like Noah turning the ark around and pulling people out of the water or Lot going back and rescuing people out of the fire that was falling on Sodom.

Rev 7:14

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation , and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV



The Wrath of God on This World is not Tribulation, but FIRE...2 Peter 3:5-7

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
KJV


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> You said it right here....


 
Yep, I said that, still have no clue what you meant here.

"In your view you have the righteous removed and ungodly people being left here, then a multitude of the unrighteous being saved during what you say is wrath from God???? please explain.... "




> And if you believe in a great Tribulation after the "rapture" and in this verse Rev 7:14 says there is a group which no man could number that got saved during the great tribulation,


 
Got saved during the tribulation? No. That is the church. The ones who came OUT of the tribulation.



> you are teaching of unrighteous people who are facing Gods "Wrath" that are getting another opportunity to be saved....


 
That is what the Bible says. God will then turn his attention back to His people, send the witnesses and the 144,000 to bring his people back to him. Who says it is a second chance?



> What you are teaching is like Noah turning the ark around and pulling people out of the water or Lot going back and rescuing people out of the fire that was falling on Sodom.


 
God never said he was going to destroy everyone during the tribulation. Have you really read Revelation?

Maybe you confuse God's wrath for his Judgement?


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Got saved during the tribulation? No. That is the church. The ones who came OUT of the tribulation.



 You can not come out of something unless you have been in it.

 Can you come out of the pool if you were never in it????


----------



## Lowjack

pigpen1 said:


> You can not come out of something unless you have been in it.
> 
> Can you come out of the pool if you were never in it????


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> You can not come out of something unless you have been in it.
> 
> Can you come out of the pool if you were never in it????


 
We already are in the pool, we are coming out before the pool before it gets choppy.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> We already are in the pool, we are coming out before the pool before it gets choppy.



 So you are saying we are in the great tribulation now?????


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> So you are saying we are in the great tribulation now?????


 

No way, I am still here, aren't I? 

But the moment it starts, I am outta here. Hence, out of the tribulation.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> No way, I am still here, aren't I?
> 
> But the moment it starts, I am outta here. Hence, out of the tribulation.



 NO, again you can not come out of something unless you are in it........



 The opposite of OUT OF is IN IT......


----------



## pigpen1

Rev 7:14

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation , and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
KJV

 Notice it says they CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION. It does not say they came out before or at the Beginning or escaped the tribulation.


 Again you can't come OUT OF something unless you are in it.

 Please explain how you are defining "Before" from "Out Of"


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> NO, again you can not come out of something unless you are in it........
> 
> 
> 
> The opposite of OUT OF is IN IT......


 
The moment it starts, we come out.

Not that hard.

But, if we look at the Greek..

Strong's G1537 - ek 
1) out of, from, by, away from


----------



## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> The moment it starts, we come out.
> 
> Not that hard.
> 
> But, if we look at the Greek..
> 
> Strong's G1537 - ek
> 1) out of, from, by, away from


You still have to have being in it, LOL


----------



## Spotlite

pigpen1 said:


> Rev 7:14
> 
> 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation , and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
> KJV
> 
> Notice it says they CAME OUT OF GREAT TRIBULATION. It does not say they came out before or at the Beginning or escaped the tribulation.
> 
> 
> Again you can't come OUT OF something unless you are in it.
> 
> Please explain how you are defining "Before" from "Out Of"



Keep in mind, after the rapture of the church, there are those that will refuse the antichrist. Remember the 144,000, the 12,000 from the 12 tribes, Jews???????????? 


If you understand Daniel, Ezekial, Revelations and Matthew, you will be to understand that God does not intend for his Church to be here during the trib. For it to be here, contradicts those chapters.


----------



## Spotlite

pigpen1 said:


> Show me 1 verse that says Gods people will not have or go through Tribulation........



Best thing to do is get you 7 years supply of balony and clean water and find you a good place to hunker down . Gona be a tough ride

Im gona plan on taking that way of escape he has promised.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> The moment it starts, we come out.
> 
> Not that hard.
> 
> But, if we look at the Greek..
> 
> Strong's G1537 - ek
> 1) out of, from, by, away from



well which kind of Premillennial view do you follow, you know there are 3 differant views of premill doctrine.

1. Pre-Trib  which means before the trib starts. so that doesn't fit the coming "OUT OF".

2. Mid-Trib which the Church will be removed when the anti-christ set his self up in the temple and declares he is God.  This could line up with coming "Out OF".

3. Post-trib, where the Church will go through till the end of the trib. This also would fit coming "Out Of".

Pre-Trib means before it starts, so that doesn't line up with what you are teaching.

Do not get these confused with Premillennial, Amillennial or Postmillennial. The three listed above are dealing with the views of premillennial doctrine.

I have another question, since you in he past have said you are pre-trib. How can it be pre-trib when the scripture says this..2 Thess 2:1-4

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV


 We hear pre-mills say that we know the "Rapture" is near because we see the Falling Away [verse 3] but notice the word "AND", it is a conjunction that makes the rest of that verse have to happen also before the "Rapture".

and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


 I thought that pre-millennial teaching says that the "Anti-Christ" would not be revealed until the mid-point of the tribulation.

 Verse 3"That Day shall not come until", what is that DAY. Read verse #1, 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> The moment it starts, we come out.
> 
> Not that hard.
> 
> But, if we look at the Greek..
> 
> Strong's G1537 - ek
> 1) out of, from, by, away from



ek

NT:1537 ek (ek) or ex (ex); a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):

(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> well which kind of Premillennial view do you follow, you know there are 3 differant views of premill doctrine.
> 
> 1. Pre-Trib which means before the trib starts. so that doesn't fit the coming "OUT OF".


 

This one, and yes, "out of" fits.

All are closer than no millennial reign of Christ.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> This one, and yes, "out of" fits.
> 
> All are closer than no millennial reign of Christ.



Please explain from your view the rest of that post #84,dealing with 2 Thess 2:1-4.


----------



## farmasis

<TABLE><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD>  

Definition:
</TD><TD> 

1) out of, from, by, away from <HR>a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or
motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or
figurative; direct or remote):-after, among, X are, at,
betwixt(-yond), by (the means of), exceedingly, (+ abundantly above),
for(- th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X
heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, ...ly, (because, by reason) of,
off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth,
through,
X unto, X vehemently, with(-out). Often used in composition,
with the same general import; often of completion.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> Please explain from your view the rest of that post #84,dealing with 2 Thess 2:1-4.


 

I have another question, since you in he past have said you are pre-trib. How can it be pre-trib when the scripture says this..2 Thess 2:1-4

2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

I don't understand why that is a problem at all with pretribulation? Both events will have to happen before Christ returns.

There will be a falling away and the Anti-Christ will be revealed.

Now it is a problem in your eschatology. Because since we have already had the tribulation and the millennial reign of Christ, you need to explain who the son of perdition was.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> I don't understand why that is a problem at all with pretribulation? Both events will have to happen before Christ returns.
> 
> There will be a falling away and the Anti-Christ will be revealed.
> 
> Now it is a problem in your eschatology. Because since we have already had the tribulation and the millennial reign of Christ, you need to explain who the son of perdition was.



 so you are saying that the rapture can not happen until the anti-christ is revealed????


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> so you are saying that the rapture can not happen until the anti-christ is revealed????


 
No, the second coming.

Are you saying that the son of perdition has been revealed as prophesied by scripture, since the Great tribulation started in 70 a.d.?


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> No, the second coming.
> 
> Are you saying that the son of perdition has been revealed as prophesied by scripture, since the Great tribulation started in 70 a.d.?



 You do not even make a good premillennial arguement. All Premillennial's that I know and books that I have read all say that the first part of that chapter is dealing with the "Rapture".

 Until you can figure out what Premillennial Doctrine teaches there is no reason for us to debate Amillennial Doctine.


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> You do not even make a good premillennial arguement. All Premillennial's that I know and books that I have read all say that the first part of that chapter is dealing with the "Rapture".
> 
> Until you can figure out what Premillennial Doctrine teaches there is no reason for us to debate Amillennial Doctine.


 

Now that is funny!

How can that chapter deal with PREtribulation rapture when it describes the son of perdition being revealed before Jesus's return and we know from propecy of Daniel that will happen in the middle of the week, about 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.

How 'bout just saying that you can't answer questions about your beliefs...It would be a lot easier.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Now that is funny!
> 
> How can that chapter deal with PREtribulation rapture when it describes the son of perdition being revealed before Jesus's return and we know from propecy of Daniel that will happen in the middle of the week, about 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.
> 
> How 'bout just saying that you can't answer questions about your beliefs...It would be a lot easier.



 If this is after the rapture, why didn't he say "from the time we leave here it will be seven years before this happens.....how could they be decieved if they ain't gonna be here?

 I can and will debate my belief, but right know I am more interested in your view because you have a unique view of premillennialism, and a unique defining system for how people can come OUT of something they are not IN.


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Now that is funny!
> 
> How can that chapter deal with PREtribulation rapture when it describes the son of perdition being revealed before Jesus's return and we know from propecy of Daniel that will happen in the middle of the week, about 3 1/2 years into the tribulation.
> 
> How 'bout just saying that you can't answer questions about your beliefs...It would be a lot easier.



2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
KJV
  How could those Christians be "Gathered" unto Christ if this is at the "White Horse" return??? By what you teach they should be on horses with him and that they should have been "Gathered" at the "Rapture".


----------



## farmasis

pigpen1 said:


> 2 Thess 2:1
> 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
> KJV
> How could those Christians be "Gathered" unto Christ if this is at the "White Horse" return??? By what you teach they should be on horses with him and that they should have been "Gathered" at the "Rapture".


 

Refers to the marriage supper of the lamb.

Now your turn, If the Great Tribulation has already happened, who were the two witnesses? Did anyone see them shoot fire from their mouth and devour any enemies, did anyone witness their death and resurrection, as predicted in Revelation 11?


----------



## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Refers to the marriage supper of the lamb.
> 
> Now your turn, If the Great Tribulation has already happened, who were the two witnesses? Did anyone see them shoot fire from their mouth and devour any enemies, did anyone witness their death and resurrection, as predicted in Revelation 11?


Was Cnn around back then or newspapers to announce the news ? Nope, LOL
Still waiting for chapter and verse on that 7 year honey moon, thingy ???
And by the way, Noah was not removed he ws saved, the ones removed were the 65,000 to 100,000 that perished in the flood.

II peter
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to 2hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;  5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;


----------



## farmasis

Lowjack said:


> Was Cnn around back then or newspapers to announce the news ?


 
Anybody write about it? That would have been a spectacular thing, and should have made an impression on someone.



> And by the way, Noah was not removed he ws saved, the ones removed were the 65,000 to 100,000 that perished in the flood.


 
Before God poured out his wrath on Soddom and the world in the days of Noah, he removed both Noah and his family as well as Lot and his family from the path of destruction. So will it be in end times as the Bible predicts. Maybe he will surround us with a force field, maybe he will call us up in the clouds, maybe to Petra, but the Bible is clear to me it will be heaven.




> II peter
> 4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to 2hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;


 
Ahhh, you stopped too soon, let's finish it-- shall we?

*<SUP>7</SUP>* and delivered righteous Lot, _who was_ oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30505>*8*</SUP> (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented _his_ righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing _their_ lawless deeds)— <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30506>*9*</SUP> _then_ the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30507>*10*</SUP> and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. 

also see...

*<SUP>29</SUP>* but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed _them_ all. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-25678>*30*</SUP> Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17)


----------



## pigpen1

farmasis said:


> Refers to the marriage supper of the lamb.



  Yep, that makes a lot of sense. It really fits into the context. I can see where Paul found it necessary for those early Christian not to be deceived that the marriage supper wouldn't be until the Man of sin had been revealed...LOL!

 I am done with this discussion, I don't think I want to see another rabbit pulled out of the hat like this...


----------



## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Anybody write about it? That would have been a spectacular thing, and should have made an impression on someone.
> 
> 
> 
> Before God poured out his wrath on Soddom and the world in the days of Noah, he removed both Noah and his family as well as Lot and his family from the path of destruction. So will it be in end times as the Bible predicts. Maybe he will surround us with a force field, maybe he will call us up in the clouds, maybe to Petra, but the Bible is clear to me it will be heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ahhh, you stopped too soon, let's finish it-- shall we?
> 
> *<SUP>7</SUP>* and delivered righteous Lot, _who was_ oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30505>*8*</SUP> (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented _his_ righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing _their_ lawless deeds)— <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30506>*9*</SUP> _then_ the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-30507>*10*</SUP> and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority.
> 
> also see...
> 
> *<SUP>29</SUP>* but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed _them_ all. <SUP class=versenum id=en-NKJV-25678>*30*</SUP> Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. (Luke 17)



Well thanks those prove my point even more, none were removed from earth but saved and preserved on earth, the wicked were destroyed and removed from the earth in Sodom and Gomorrah, Lot Continue to Live on this earth.
Chapter and verse on the seven year Honey moon ?


----------



## farmasis

Of course you know where that comes from LJ, why be so argumentative? You know it is about Daniels 70 week prophecy and applying Revelation and other scripture that says the church will be removed before the great tribulation. Knowing that each of Daniels weeks were representation of 7 years.

Done with it. Spend time in your Bible folks, and forget those things you were told to believe, especially when scripture plainly states otherwise as in amillenialism.

Happy to take PM's if I can clear up anymore questions about the truth of the rapture of the church.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Some interesting viewpoints here. I personally don't believe in a rapture, as I tend to believe Jesus addressed this pretty well. On the other hand our accepting the rapture or not accepting it will not serve the purpose of God in the earth.

Jesus said did not say "Go out and twist the scriptures into a doctrine and call it truth!"

Jesus said:
Mark 16:15-18
And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will cast out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Matthew 28:18-20
18And Jesus came and said to them,  "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."


----------



## earl

You boys are still making the bible say what you want it to. Keep up the good work.


----------



## earl

For your complete RAPTURE news, THe rapture index. Now you don't have to wonder.

http://www.raptureready.com/rap2.html


----------



## Lowjack

farmasis said:


> Of course you know where that comes from LJ, why be so argumentative? You know it is about Daniels 70 week prophecy and applying Revelation and other scripture that says the church will be removed before the great tribulation. Knowing that each of Daniels weeks were representation of 7 years.
> 
> Done with it. Spend time in your Bible folks, and forget those things you were told to believe, especially when scripture plainly states otherwise as in amillenialism.
> 
> Happy to take PM's if I can clear up anymore questions about the truth of the rapture of the church.


Oh the famous 70th week of Daniel, everything was fulfilled except 7 years , You can only believe that when you ignore Jewish History , as the Church has done for 2000 years.


----------



## earl

This ones for you LJ

“Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be” (James 3:5-6, 8, 10).


----------



## sandtree

All I know is I will be where jesus is. Wether its here or there.


----------



## Lowjack

earl said:


> This ones for you LJ
> 
> “Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!  And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.  Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be” (James 3:5-6, 8, 10).



And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the End come.

EVERY thing, we know, works together to accomplish the will of God; angels and devils, good and evil, light and darkness, love and hatred, humility and pride, willingly or unwillingly accomplish that will. All bring about His ends, whether by obeying His rule, or opposing and being crushed by it. And so, in prophecy, we have a two-fold description of things which usher in our Lord's Comings, the preaching of righteousness and the ripening of unrighteousness. So it was in God's Judgments, which were eminent types of the End. "The wickedness of man was great upon the earth, and every imagination of his heart was only to do evil continually;" but it was not until Noah, "the preacher of righteousness," had for the allotted "hundred and twenty years," preached in vain, that "the flood came." "The men of Sodom were wicked, and sinners before the Lord exceedingly," but it was not until "just Lot" had been brought among them, and "vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds," and had been rejected by them, ("This one came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge,") that they were "set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." The first destruction of the chosen city was not until God had "sent His servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them;" "but they mocked His messengers and despised His words and misused His prophets, until the wrath of God arose against His people, till there was no remedy." It was not until the Gospel should be preached, as a testimony to them, that that chief image of the consummation of all things, "the end" of Jerusalem, was to "come."

These were but shadows, dimly tracing out an indistinct and faint outline of what is to be
REv, E.B.Pusey,D.D  Sermon in 1841.


----------



## earl

I give you a bible quote and you come back with the words of a mere mortal minister from 1841. How appropriate . At least it wasn't another mishmash from your silvery tongue.


----------



## pileit

ronnie t said:


> amen christ will return and take care of things.
> He'll claim his church.
> Gonna be a judgement.
> 
> But i personally don't think christ will set foot upon the earth.
> His kingdom is not physical.
> But, what do i know?
> I just want to be with him.




a big amen right there.


----------



## pileit

redneckcamo said:


> i see the heretical mudslinger has come on the scene !
> 
> An i believe i will give him the answer he deserves !
> 
> Thank the lord for the ignore feature ;\




i can assure you pigpen is not a heretic.  He is a diligent student of the bible.  Provide him with an answer that is from the scriptures where the truth is rightly divided you will get no arguement from him.  He was the fastest learning student i ever taught.


----------



## huuf

*Got Jews? You need them to understand the "Rapture"...*

Hi all, my name is David and i worship at Congregation Beth Hallel (House of Praise) a Messianic Jewish Congregation in Roswell. Prior to moving to Atlanta i lived in Detroit and worshipped at Congregation Shema Yisrael another Messianic fellowship. 

In keeping the Jewish holidays instead of the traditional Gentile holidays for about 10 years i have come to see that they are called "Holy Convocations" for a reason. They are all "rehearsals" for things Jesus would or will do in the future.

To understand who will be taken up, when it will happen etc. you can look at the harvest festivals and apply that to what is plainly written in scripture for deeper understanding.

The Torah (Law of Moses) commands jews to keep the festivals of Passover and Shavuot. The barley is harvested  first the day after Passover. Then come the 49 days of "counting the omer" followed by the wheat harvest followed by Shavuot. 

_You shall count for yourselves -- from the day after the Shabbat, from the day when you bring the Omer of the waving -- seven Shabbats, they shall be complete. Until the day after the seventh sabbath you shall count, fifty days... -Leviticus 23:15-16 
You shall count for yourselves seven weeks, from when the sickle is first put to the standing crop shall you begin counting seven weeks. Then you will observe the Festival of Shavu'ot for the L-RD, your G-d -Deuteronomy 16:9-10 _

Here are the symbolisms contained in the above Scriptures and their implementations on the Jewish calender. 

Passover as most Christians know, is the festival which foretold (reheared) the Crucifixion of the Lamb of God with its blood sacrifice of lambs blood and lamb meal and the  details thereof which all pointed to Jesus sacrifice at Calvary. The  day after Passover the Barley harvest offering is made. The offering is called a "heave offering".

Heave offering
Hebrew: terumah

(Ex. 29:27) means simply an offering, a present, including all the offerings made by the Israelites as a present

_This Hebrew word is frequently employed. Some of the rabbis attach to the word the meaning of *elevation*, and refer it to the heave offering, which consisted in presenting the offering by a motion up and down, distinguished from the wave offering, which consisted in a repeated movement in a horizontal direction, a "wave offering to the Lord as ruler of earth, a heave offering to the Lord as ruler of heaven." The right shoulder, which fell to the priests in presenting thank offerings, was called the heave shoulder (Lev. 7:34; Num. 6:20). The first fruits offered in harvest-time (Num. 15:20, 21) were heave offerings_


Next are the 7 weeks of Counting the Omer which are somber days for jews during which they offer many prayers. The symbolism here is that the 7 sabbatical weeks of counting the omer is meant to point to the 7 years of tribulation (time of Jacobs trouble for the jews). These days are thought to prepare the Jewish people to receive their Messiah when he comes to establish his 1000 year millenial Kingdom ( http://www.aish.com/h/o/t/48970201.html )

Last is the Wheat harvest with its "wave offering" of bread followed by Shavuot (the day the Torah was given to the children of Israel by Moses) which is also the Christian holiday of Pentacost (the giving of the Holy Spirit). It is on Shavuot that Jesus (the Living Torah) sent his Spirit (Pentacost) and will ultimately come down from the mountain (heaven) to his people the jews for his Millenial Reign.

Let me summarize things.

1. All the holidays given to the Jews are symbolic rehearsals of something Jesus did or is yet to do.

2. The Heave Offering of Barley sybolizes the "rapture of the gentiles" with its "elevation" and the fact that we gentiles are "crude" in that we have pagan origins and no Torah to cultivate us. Barley was considered as food for humans only in times of famine by jews.

3. The 49 days (7 weeks) of Counting the Omer symbolize the 7 years of tribulation God will deliver the children of Israel through in preparation for the coming of their Messiah for his 1000 year reign on earth.

4. The Wheat offering of the loaves of bread (fine grain worked into fine food "think Torah") is waved upwards (think of Israel saying at that time "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord") as the symbolism.

Sorry for all the detail here but the delight is always in the Details.

Shalom, David


----------



## Hoyt Mathews

huuf said:


> Hi all, my name is David and i worship at Congregation Beth Hallel (House of Praise) a Messianic Jewish Congregation in Roswell. Prior to moving to Atlanta i lived in Detroit and worshipped at Congregation Shema Yisrael another Messianic fellowship.
> 
> In keeping the Jewish holidays instead of the traditional Gentile holidays for about 10 years i have come to see that they are called "Holy Convocations" for a reason. They are all "rehearsals" for things Jesus would or will do in the future.
> 
> To understand who will be taken up, when it will happen etc. you can look at the harvest festivals and apply that to what is plainly written in scripture for deeper understanding.
> 
> The Torah (Law of Moses) commands jews to keep the festivals of Passover and Shavuot. The barley is harvested  first the day after Passover. Then come the 49 days of "counting the omer" followed by the wheat harvest followed by Shavuot.
> 
> _You shall count for yourselves -- from the day after the Shabbat, from the day when you bring the Omer of the waving -- seven Shabbats, they shall be complete. Until the day after the seventh sabbath you shall count, fifty days... -Leviticus 23:15-16
> You shall count for yourselves seven weeks, from when the sickle is first put to the standing crop shall you begin counting seven weeks. Then you will observe the Festival of Shavu'ot for the L-RD, your G-d -Deuteronomy 16:9-10 _
> 
> Here are the symbolisms contained in the above Scriptures and their implementations on the Jewish calender.
> 
> Passover as most Christians know, is the festival which foretold (reheared) the Crucifixion of the Lamb of God with its blood sacrifice of lambs blood and lamb meal and the  details thereof which all pointed to Jesus sacrifice at Calvary. The  day after Passover the Barley harvest offering is made. The offering is called a "heave offering".
> 
> Heave offering
> Hebrew: terumah
> 
> (Ex. 29:27) means simply an offering, a present, including all the offerings made by the Israelites as a present
> 
> _This Hebrew word is frequently employed. Some of the rabbis attach to the word the meaning of *elevation*, and refer it to the heave offering, which consisted in presenting the offering by a motion up and down, distinguished from the wave offering, which consisted in a repeated movement in a horizontal direction, a "wave offering to the Lord as ruler of earth, a heave offering to the Lord as ruler of heaven." The right shoulder, which fell to the priests in presenting thank offerings, was called the heave shoulder (Lev. 7:34; Num. 6:20). The first fruits offered in harvest-time (Num. 15:20, 21) were heave offerings_
> 
> 
> Next are the 7 weeks of Counting the Omer which are somber days for jews during which they offer many prayers. The symbolism here is that the 7 sabbatical weeks of counting the omer is meant to point to the 7 years of tribulation (time of Jacobs trouble for the jews). These days are thought to prepare the Jewish people to receive their Messiah when he comes to establish his 1000 year millenial Kingdom ( http://www.aish.com/h/o/t/48970201.html )
> 
> Last is the Wheat harvest with its "wave offering" of bread followed by Shavuot (the day the Torah was given to the children of Israel by Moses) which is also the Christian holiday of Pentacost (the giving of the Holy Spirit). It is on Shavuot that Jesus (the Living Torah) sent his Spirit (Pentacost) and will ultimately come down from the mountain (heaven) to his people the jews for his Millenial Reign.
> 
> Let me summarize things.
> 
> 1. All the holidays given to the Jews are symbolic rehearsals of something Jesus did or is yet to do.
> 
> 2. The Heave Offering of Barley sybolizes the "rapture of the gentiles" with its "elevation" and the fact that we gentiles are "crude" in that we have pagan origins and no Torah to cultivate us. Barley was considered as food for humans only in times of famine by jews.
> 
> 3. The 49 days (7 weeks) of Counting the Omer symbolize the 7 years of tribulation God will deliver the children of Israel through in preparation for the coming of their Messiah for his 1000 year reign on earth.
> 
> 4. The Wheat offering of the loaves of bread (fine grain worked into fine food "think Torah") is waved upwards (think of Israel saying at that time "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord") as the symbolism.
> 
> Sorry for all the detail here but the delight is always in the Details.
> 
> Shalom, David



You should read the book, "The Jews and their Lies" by Martin Luther.


----------



## Hoyt Mathews

I dont believe in a pre-tribulational rapture. How can anyone? The tribulation already took place in the first century. What are you guys even talking about? What you need to do is prepare for the fact that you will all die and be buried. Also, quit interpreting the Bible with the 6'oclock news.

You are not going to fly away with Jesus to a 7 year picnic in heaven and return on horseback ready to slay monsters.


----------



## Hoyt Mathews

> Now it is a problem in your eschatology. Because since we have already had the tribulation and the millennial reign of Christ, you need to explain who the son of perdition was.



It was Nero. The Beast of Revelation is Nero. The boogey man of the NT is Nero. This is where serious scholarship is currently.


----------



## Hoyt Mathews

Does anyone else in here think that Dispensationalism makes a mockery out of the "complete" atoning work of Christ? Any theology that would have temple sacrifices reinstituted is to make Christ out to be a loser. He accomplished, and turned away the Fathers wrath-No more blood, no more temple. What heresy!


----------



## dawg2

Hoyt Mathews said:


> You should read the book, "The Jews and their Lies" by Martin Luther.



...holy crap...that was nice...


----------



## eleuthros1

Yep, believe in it....not gonna say when I believe it'll happen.  Too many self proclaimed experts here.


----------



## farmasis

Hoyt Mathews said:


> It was Nero. The Beast of Revelation is Nero. The boogey man of the NT is Nero. This is where serious scholarship is currently.


 
Nero huh.

Didn't Nero commit suicide and die, and was put in a tomb?

Wasn't the Anti-Christ supposed to have a mortal head wound and heal himself and be cast into the lake of fire with Satan?

Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be removed before the son of perdition revealed? Did this happen?


----------



## farmasis

Hoyt Mathews said:


> Does anyone else in here think that Dispensationalism makes a mockery out of the "complete" atoning work of Christ? Any theology that would have temple sacrifices reinstituted is to make Christ out to be a loser. He accomplished, and turned away the Fathers wrath-No more blood, no more temple. What heresy!


 
Dispensationalism is a descriptive way of viewing how God has communicated with man. It is literal interpretations of the Bible and prophecy. It is reflective of how God will deal with the church and Israel.

The Bible teaches the temple will be rebuilt and the antichrist will stop the sacrafices.


----------



## farmasis

Hoyt Mathews said:


> You are not going to fly away with Jesus to a 7 year picnic in heaven and return on horseback ready to slay monsters.


 
No, it will be a marriage feast.


----------



## Diogenes

Hi, my name is Bubba, and I’m a Jesusaholic.

I used to smile sometimes, and have friends, and a family.  But then I was Saved, and learned that all Earthly pursuits were as nothing compared to the glorious eternity that somebody told me I could have, if only I did only what they told me to do.  And they gave me a Book.  But it was really two Books.  But that is okay, ‘cause way down near the middle of the second of the two, the Book says that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” and so that meant that even all the parts before that part were right, and all the parts after that had to be right, ‘cause it said so, right there in black and white, no matter who wrote that stuff.  

And so I was led by the “instruction in righteousness.”  Like a sheep, I had gone astray -- it was obvious -- and by the power of the Book I was shorn, and brought back into the fold, but ‘not of works, lest anyone should boast.’  So I cleaved to the Word, and renounced all Earthly things – the evils of my bodily flaws did I cast away, I tell you!  I became a celibate, only ate the flesh of animals with cloven hooves, beat children with rods, stoned sinners, blew the trumpet at the new moon, only let my eyes look directly forward, stopped cutting my hair, and never cursed the ruler of my people.  All the things it told me to do, I did.  Because it said so, and it was right in all ways about all things.       

But Brothers, I stand before you and Testify that it was hard.  So very Hard.  Because I couldn’t do it by works, because it told me not to.  But then it told me to be fruitful and multiply, and to do all kinds of other stuff, but that would be works, so I couldn’t do those things.  Because it told me not to do works, lest I boast.  And I couldn’t do it by thoughts, because thoughts lead to wisdom, and in wisdom is grief, and it says so.  So I couldn’t act anymore, because that is works, and I couldn’t think anymore, because that is grief and pride.  And I couldn’t do it by obeying, because the lesson Jesus taught was disobeying Earthly authority, and following the one righteous path no matter the suffering one must endure.  But following the one righteous path counted as works too, and thinking about it counted as pride, so even if I obeyed the Book I was disobeying the Book, no matter what I did.  It was hard, I tell you.  Hard!

But then it said that I would be forgiven, if only I believed.  Okay, it didn’t really say that, but somebody told me it did, so that is close enough for me.  And I’m here to tell ya Brothers, that was a relief!  But then somebody said I had to be Saved in order to be forgiven.  And the only way to be Saved was to do what the Book told me to do, and well, Boy Howdy! – here we go again . . .  Caught in a downward spiral of contradictions, I fell into a classic pattern of addiction – after a two day binge of Leviticus, I needed a whole day of Psalms, and then 2 Timothy followed by a Lamentations bender.  Before I knew it, it was just Obadiah, Philippians, and Proverbs.  

When I finally tried to lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people, I knew that I needed help, but it was already too late.  Strangers had devoured my strength, and I knewith it not; yea, grey hairs were here and there upon me, yet I knewith it not.  So it is too late for me.  I had already sinned by trying not to sin.  But it may not be too late for you!  In order to Obey, you must Disobey – that is the only path to Salvation!    

Thank you for attending our meeting today, and in the back you will find cookies, orange juice, and several helpful pamphlets by Ayn Rand, Aristotle, and Frank Zappa.  We apologize that Kant’s categorical imperative and the Cyrenaics pamphlets are sold out at this time . . . And be generous on your way back to the parking lot, for I sayeth unto thee that I have been Commanded, by God, in Scripture, thusly: “Be thou not afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased.”   Yea, verily!  Praise be!


----------



## tell sackett

2Chr.36:15-16;2Pe.3:3-4;Ju.17-18;Gal.6:7


----------



## farmasis

Good advice for someone who just wastes a bunch of bandwidth and oxygen.


----------



## Israel

Diogenes said:


> Hi, my name is Bubba, and I’m a Jesusaholic.
> 
> I used to smile sometimes, and have friends, and a family.  But then I was Saved, and learned that all Earthly pursuits were as nothing compared to the glorious eternity that somebody told me I could have, if only I did only what they told me to do.  And they gave me a Book.  But it was really two Books.  But that is okay, ‘cause way down near the middle of the second of the two, the Book says that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” and so that meant that even all the parts before that part were right, and all the parts after that had to be right, ‘cause it said so, right there in black and white, no matter who wrote that stuff.
> 
> And so I was led by the “instruction in righteousness.”  Like a sheep, I had gone astray -- it was obvious -- and by the power of the Book I was shorn, and brought back into the fold, but ‘not of works, lest anyone should boast.’  So I cleaved to the Word, and renounced all Earthly things – the evils of my bodily flaws did I cast away, I tell you!  I became a celibate, only ate the flesh of animals with cloven hooves, beat children with rods, stoned sinners, blew the trumpet at the new moon, only let my eyes look directly forward, stopped cutting my hair, and never cursed the ruler of my people.  All the things it told me to do, I did.  Because it said so, and it was right in all ways about all things.
> 
> But Brothers, I stand before you and Testify that it was hard.  So very Hard.  Because I couldn’t do it by works, because it told me not to.  But then it told me to be fruitful and multiply, and to do all kinds of other stuff, but that would be works, so I couldn’t do those things.  Because it told me not to do works, lest I boast.  And I couldn’t do it by thoughts, because thoughts lead to wisdom, and in wisdom is grief, and it says so.  So I couldn’t act anymore, because that is works, and I couldn’t think anymore, because that is grief and pride.  And I couldn’t do it by obeying, because the lesson Jesus taught was disobeying Earthly authority, and following the one righteous path no matter the suffering one must endure.  But following the one righteous path counted as works too, and thinking about it counted as pride, so even if I obeyed the Book I was disobeying the Book, no matter what I did.  It was hard, I tell you.  Hard!
> 
> But then it said that I would be forgiven, if only I believed.  Okay, it didn’t really say that, but somebody told me it did, so that is close enough for me.  And I’m here to tell ya Brothers, that was a relief!  But then somebody said I had to be Saved in order to be forgiven.  And the only way to be Saved was to do what the Book told me to do, and well, Boy Howdy! – here we go again . . .  Caught in a downward spiral of contradictions, I fell into a classic pattern of addiction – after a two day binge of Leviticus, I needed a whole day of Psalms, and then 2 Timothy followed by a Lamentations bender.  Before I knew it, it was just Obadiah, Philippians, and Proverbs.
> 
> When I finally tried to lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people, I knew that I needed help, but it was already too late.  Strangers had devoured my strength, and I knewith it not; yea, grey hairs were here and there upon me, yet I knewith it not.  So it is too late for me.  I had already sinned by trying not to sin.  But it may not be too late for you!  In order to Obey, you must Disobey – that is the only path to Salvation!
> 
> Thank you for attending our meeting today, and in the back you will find cookies, orange juice, and several helpful pamphlets by Ayn Rand, Aristotle, and Frank Zappa.  We apologize that Kant’s categorical imperative and the Cyrenaics pamphlets are sold out at this time . . . And be generous on your way back to the parking lot, for I sayeth unto thee that I have been Commanded, by God, in Scripture, thusly: “Be thou not afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased.”   Yea, verily!  Praise be!




Gettin a litle sporty, aintcha?
Good to see dere's someone on here may be as impresed wid demself as I am wid me. Bein' too smart by haff is teruble burden, gud to see I ain't alone.


----------



## gtparts

Diogenes said:


> Hi, my name is Bubba, and I’m a Jesusaholic.
> 
> I used to smile sometimes, and have friends, and a family.  But then I was Saved, and learned that all Earthly pursuits were as nothing compared to the glorious eternity that somebody told me I could have, if only I did only what they told me to do.  And they gave me a Book.  But it was really two Books.  But that is okay, ‘cause way down near the middle of the second of the two, the Book says that “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God,” and so that meant that even all the parts before that part were right, and all the parts after that had to be right, ‘cause it said so, right there in black and white, no matter who wrote that stuff.
> 
> And so I was led by the “instruction in righteousness.”  Like a sheep, I had gone astray -- it was obvious -- and by the power of the Book I was shorn, and brought back into the fold, but ‘not of works, lest anyone should boast.’  So I cleaved to the Word, and renounced all Earthly things – the evils of my bodily flaws did I cast away, I tell you!  I became a celibate, only ate the flesh of animals with cloven hooves, beat children with rods, stoned sinners, blew the trumpet at the new moon, only let my eyes look directly forward, stopped cutting my hair, and never cursed the ruler of my people.  All the things it told me to do, I did.  Because it said so, and it was right in all ways about all things.
> 
> But Brothers, I stand before you and Testify that it was hard.  So very Hard.  Because I couldn’t do it by works, because it told me not to.  But then it told me to be fruitful and multiply, and to do all kinds of other stuff, but that would be works, so I couldn’t do those things.  Because it told me not to do works, lest I boast.  And I couldn’t do it by thoughts, because thoughts lead to wisdom, and in wisdom is grief, and it says so.  So I couldn’t act anymore, because that is works, and I couldn’t think anymore, because that is grief and pride.  And I couldn’t do it by obeying, because the lesson Jesus taught was disobeying Earthly authority, and following the one righteous path no matter the suffering one must endure.  But following the one righteous path counted as works too, and thinking about it counted as pride, so even if I obeyed the Book I was disobeying the Book, no matter what I did.  It was hard, I tell you.  Hard!
> 
> But then it said that I would be forgiven, if only I believed.  Okay, it didn’t really say that, but somebody told me it did, so that is close enough for me.  And I’m here to tell ya Brothers, that was a relief!  But then somebody said I had to be Saved in order to be forgiven.  And the only way to be Saved was to do what the Book told me to do, and well, Boy Howdy! – here we go again . . .  Caught in a downward spiral of contradictions, I fell into a classic pattern of addiction – after a two day binge of Leviticus, I needed a whole day of Psalms, and then 2 Timothy followed by a Lamentations bender.  Before I knew it, it was just Obadiah, Philippians, and Proverbs.
> 
> When I finally tried to lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people, I knew that I needed help, but it was already too late.  Strangers had devoured my strength, and I knewith it not; yea, grey hairs were here and there upon me, yet I knewith it not.  So it is too late for me.  I had already sinned by trying not to sin.  But it may not be too late for you!  In order to Obey, you must Disobey – that is the only path to Salvation!
> 
> Thank you for attending our meeting today, and in the back you will find cookies, orange juice, and several helpful pamphlets by Ayn Rand, Aristotle, and Frank Zappa.  We apologize that Kant’s categorical imperative and the Cyrenaics pamphlets are sold out at this time . . . And be generous on your way back to the parking lot, for I sayeth unto thee that I have been Commanded, by God, in Scripture, thusly: “Be thou not afraid when one is made rich, when the glory of his house is increased.”   Yea, verily!  Praise be!



Enjoy your self, dio?


Good for you. Hope you remember the fun you had here.


----------



## Diogenes

“Enjoy your self, dio?”

Heck yeah!  A fella can’t buy this kind of fun at any price.  This is even better than when that fat lady ate six whole blueberry pies down at the County Fair and then got sick all over the Preacher . . .


----------



## huuf

*With all due respect Hoyt...*

I have to question what 'spirit' your mocking of those who disagree with you points to or is from. Being a former Lutheran (Missouri Synod) I can tell you Martin Luther went far off course in his latter years by being vexed over with trying to reform the Jews even to the point he wished them to be put to death at one point. Do you really believe this to be of God or have you forgotten the verse "They will  kill you and think they do me a service..."

The proverb "What God has done, he will do again" is made true many times in scripture from 2 temples to 2 comings of messiah to 2 holocausts to 2 witnesses (Jews/Gentiles) etc etc including 2 Abominations that make Desolate. I dont even know the meaning of "Dispensationalism" however this i do know, there is purpose in all of God's works especially His COMMANDED Sabboths...

Sorry my outlook doesnt match your Doctrine and Theology here but I will stick with the Jews and their teachings thank you very much. Since i have probably offended you by this time ill risk a little more and tell you that all the Bible is a metaphor on one level and the command in the Torah to not plow with an ox and - donkey - is one of those. 

In Jewish thought an OX is a man well versed in knowing and doing the Law of Moses. A - donkey - is a gentile with no Torah training, this is confirmed by Jesus riding into Jerusalem on Palm Sunday on the - donkey - (Jesus will be brought to the Jews by the faith of the Gentile Church).

The ancient Rabbis of Jesus' time taught that there are 4 levels of Biblical Interpretation (Plain Text - Allegory - Sermon - Mystical) in each letter, verse, chapter and book of Scripture that apply all at once and at all times. Simply put all scripture is Prophesy on one level for instance. I could go on and on if you wish.

Lastly Jesus work was fully accomplished at the Cross however God's dealings with Mankind and the bringing forth of The AntiChrist didnt occur at that time...

Shalom, David




Hoyt Mathews said:


> Does anyone else in here think that Dispensationalism makes a mockery out of the "complete" atoning work of Christ? Any theology that would have temple sacrifices reinstituted is to make Christ out to be a loser. He accomplished, and turned away the Fathers wrath-No more blood, no more temple. What heresy!


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Three years old, dead and buried and someone just HAD to come along and dig it up..


----------



## huuf

*Until He who hinders is removed...*

The Holy Spirit is never 'removed' from the Earth, there is ample Scripture to support this. Additionally many come to Faith during the Tribulation which would be impossible without the Holy Spirit since it is written "It is by the Holy Spirit that a man can say Jesus is LORD".

When Revelation refers to "Until He who restrains is taken out of the way" it is referring to the Body of Christ i.e. the Church which is "taken out of the way" by the Rapture...

Shalom, david



farmasis said:


> Nero huh.
> 
> Didn't Nero commit suicide and die, and was put in a tomb?
> 
> Wasn't the Anti-Christ supposed to have a mortal head wound and heal himself and be cast into the lake of fire with Satan?
> 
> Isn't the Holy Spirit supposed to be removed before the son of perdition revealed? Did this happen?


----------



## dawg2

holy cow...


----------



## Ronnie T

You go huuf.
Enjoy the discussion.


----------



## rockman7

rapture...big subject but let me add anouther twist.

i believe in "several". one has already taken place , since i'm at work i can just say look in matthew "and many of the graves were opened and many of the old testament saints were seen walkin thru jerusalem". this was where Jesus "raptured" the ot saints held in h*ll (paradise). there will be one before the trib (2 thes. 2:4 methinks). and anouther taking the tribulation saints away halfwayy thru the trib ( i can look up the script. when i have time if you like).


----------



## StriperAddict

All I can say is:

When the roll is CALLED UP yonder, 
I'll be there


----------



## 1gr8bldr

huuf said:


> Hi all, my name is David and i worship at Congregation Beth Hallel (House of Praise) a Messianic Jewish Congregation in Roswell. Prior to moving to Atlanta i lived in Detroit and worshipped at Congregation Shema Yisrael another Messianic fellowship.
> 
> In keeping the Jewish holidays instead of the traditional Gentile holidays for about 10 years i have come to see that they are called "Holy Convocations" for a reason. They are all "rehearsals" for things Jesus would or will do in the future.
> 
> To understand who will be taken up, when it will happen etc. you can look at the harvest festivals and apply that to what is plainly written in scripture for deeper understanding.
> 
> The Torah (Law of Moses) commands jews to keep the festivals of Passover and Shavuot. The barley is harvested  first the day after Passover. Then come the 49 days of "counting the omer" followed by the wheat harvest followed by Shavuot.
> 
> _You shall count for yourselves -- from the day after the Shabbat, from the day when you bring the Omer of the waving -- seven Shabbats, they shall be complete. Until the day after the seventh sabbath you shall count, fifty days... -Leviticus 23:15-16
> You shall count for yourselves seven weeks, from when the sickle is first put to the standing crop shall you begin counting seven weeks. Then you will observe the Festival of Shavu'ot for the L-RD, your G-d -Deuteronomy 16:9-10 _
> 
> Here are the symbolisms contained in the above Scriptures and their implementations on the Jewish calender.
> 
> Passover as most Christians know, is the festival which foretold (reheared) the Crucifixion of the Lamb of God with its blood sacrifice of lambs blood and lamb meal and the  details thereof which all pointed to Jesus sacrifice at Calvary. The  day after Passover the Barley harvest offering is made. The offering is called a "heave offering".
> 
> Heave offering
> Hebrew: terumah
> 
> (Ex. 29:27) means simply an offering, a present, including all the offerings made by the Israelites as a present
> 
> _This Hebrew word is frequently employed. Some of the rabbis attach to the word the meaning of *elevation*, and refer it to the heave offering, which consisted in presenting the offering by a motion up and down, distinguished from the wave offering, which consisted in a repeated movement in a horizontal direction, a "wave offering to the Lord as ruler of earth, a heave offering to the Lord as ruler of heaven." The right shoulder, which fell to the priests in presenting thank offerings, was called the heave shoulder (Lev. 7:34; Num. 6:20). The first fruits offered in harvest-time (Num. 15:20, 21) were heave offerings_
> 
> 
> Next are the 7 weeks of Counting the Omer which are somber days for jews during which they offer many prayers. The symbolism here is that the 7 sabbatical weeks of counting the omer is meant to point to the 7 years of tribulation (time of Jacobs trouble for the jews). These days are thought to prepare the Jewish people to receive their Messiah when he comes to establish his 1000 year millenial Kingdom ( http://www.aish.com/h/o/t/48970201.html )
> 
> Last is the Wheat harvest with its "wave offering" of bread followed by Shavuot (the day the Torah was given to the children of Israel by Moses) which is also the Christian holiday of Pentacost (the giving of the Holy Spirit). It is on Shavuot that Jesus (the Living Torah) sent his Spirit (Pentacost) and will ultimately come down from the mountain (heaven) to his people the jews for his Millenial Reign.
> 
> Let me summarize things.
> 
> 1. All the holidays given to the Jews are symbolic rehearsals of something Jesus did or is yet to do.
> 
> 2. The Heave Offering of Barley sybolizes the "rapture of the gentiles" with its "elevation" and the fact that we gentiles are "crude" in that we have pagan origins and no Torah to cultivate us. Barley was considered as food for humans only in times of famine by jews.
> 
> 3. The 49 days (7 weeks) of Counting the Omer symbolize the 7 years of tribulation God will deliver the children of Israel through in preparation for the coming of their Messiah for his 1000 year reign on earth.
> 
> 4. The Wheat offering of the loaves of bread (fine grain worked into fine food "think Torah") is waved upwards (think of Israel saying at that time "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord") as the symbolism.
> 
> Sorry for all the detail here but the delight is always in the Details.
> 
> Shalom, David


Wish I had a better understanding of Jewish life


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## rockman7

huuf said:


> The Holy Spirit is never 'removed' from the Earth, there is ample Scripture to support this. Additionally many come to Faith during the Tribulation which would be impossible without the Holy Spirit since it is written "It is by the Holy Spirit that a man can say Jesus is LORD".
> 
> When Revelation refers to "Until He who restrains is taken out of the way" it is referring to the Body of Christ i.e. the Church which is "taken out of the way" by the Rapture...
> 
> Shalom, david



yishar koach !! and shalom


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## hobbs27

http://voices.yahoo.com/crucified-christ-buried-christ-8726335.html?cat=37


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## rockman7

hobbs27 said:


> http://voices.yahoo.com/crucified-christ-buried-christ-8726335.html?cat=37



good post.... but don't tell the zombie hunters. walkin dead men in Christ could become targets!!!


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## hobbs27

rockman7 said:


> good post.... but don't tell the zombie hunters. walkin dead men in Christ could become targets!!!



Just thought I would share a little different look on the end times, not that I 100% agree with it, but it does a person good to study.Here's another.

http://voices.yahoo.com/the-people-which-sat-darkness-saw-8510863.html?cat=37


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## Lead Poison

I believe in the rapture and Jesus' return for those who have accepted him as Lord and Savior.

When it occurs, I don't know. However, I KNOW IT WILL HAPPEN. 

The most important thing for all is to know Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior! Unless you accept Jesus you will not enter heaven and will be eternally condemned with Satan.


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