# *update* Is this legal?!



## cpowel10 (Apr 8, 2008)

I came up with an idea today and I'd like to know if yall think its legal. 

We don't have any hogs on our Worth property, so I might try this at a WMA.

Would it be legal to drive around (or walk) a WMA early in the morning before daylight, around maybe 4:30-5:00 with a nightvision monocular to locate hogs on powerlines and sneak in and set up to wait on first legal light to shoot them? I'm talking about doing this without carrying a rifle. Would it be considered "hunting" if I am just looking at them with nightvision, the nightvision I have is hand held and isn't attached and cannot be attached to a weapon.

It seems like I could get the upper hand on hogs by doing this, that way I would know right where the hogs are and slip in right before daylight.  Let me know what yall think


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## BOWHOGKILLER (Apr 9, 2008)

I'm not sure about that, I would think them pigs would be gone by the time shooting hours came around anyway. I would check with THE MAN on that one.


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## seaweaver (Apr 9, 2008)

Caint harvest a hog w/ night vision unless it is attached to a gun.
cw


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## Emmersom Biggens (Apr 9, 2008)

You may be bending the rules on that one, I'm not sure though. I would keep it under my hat if I did it. Good luck though.


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## Rich Kaminski (Apr 9, 2008)

I might be wrong, but I didn't see anything in the regulations against it. Count me in. When are we going?


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## cpowel10 (Apr 9, 2008)

I'm gunna call The Man today and see what they have to say about this.  I hope they don't laugh at me.  I'm going to argue that it says nothing about Scouting at night, just not hunting.


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## dawg2 (Apr 9, 2008)

cpowel10 said:


> I'm gunna call The Man today and see what they have to say about this.  I hope they don't laugh at me.  I'm going to argue that it says nothing about Scouting at night, just not hunting.



Take your running shoes, because those pigs can be active at night.


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## JAGER (Apr 9, 2008)

Hunting feral hogs in the state of Georgia with night vision and thermal devices is perfectly legal and has been approved by the Director of Wildlife Resources Division (WRD), Mr. Dan Forster. Feral hogs are property of the land owner and considered an invasive species. They are not considered a game animal nor wildlife. Deer and other game species are property of the state and considered wildlife.

You do not need a Feral Hog Control Permit to hunt hogs with infrared equipment in the manner you are speaking. A Feral Hog Control Permit is only needed if you are hunting over bait, hunting from a vehicle or using a light over six volts.

My entire thermal hog control business is based on this premise. I have been in constant communication with the SW Georgia Department of Natural Resources Law Enforcement Office (CPT Jeff Swift) for the past three years. They fully support my methods and equipment. Every aspect of this hog hunting tactic has been approved by the GA DNR and the Governor's Agriculture Liaison. 

I will be a guest speaker at the National Conference on Feral Hogs in St. Louis next week to educate the audience about this very topic.  Every state with a feral hog problem should follow Georgia's lead to adopt this very effective method of hog control. My prediction is most states will reserve this infrared night control method to State and Federal agents because they are afraid hunters will poach legitimate game animals with this technology.

I suggest you develop a professional relationship with your local game wardens and county law enforcement. WMA's often have "special" rules of engagement also. Check with them directly. I would NEVER perform feral hog control at night during deer season and avoid hunting after 4:00 A.M. out of respect for your fellow turkey hunters this time of year also.

I have killed over 600 hogs during the past three years using infrared equipment and I also have 24 years of military/combat experience. Controlling feral hogs at night is my full-time business and a responsibility I take very serious. Night operations are much more dangerous and I ask GA hunters to be extremely cautious and professional.

Let me know if you need to buy some equipment. Attached are some images through my thermal scopes. 

---JAGER


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## fishbum2000 (Apr 9, 2008)

as long as you dont have your weapon on you i dont see how it can be considered "hunting" let us know how you fair out


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## cpowel10 (Apr 9, 2008)

Well I called the Albany office and asked if I could go to the WMA and look for hogs with a night vision monocular (not attached to any kind of weapon) to find hogs.  I told her I wouldn't be hunting them at night, just looking for them.....If they are still around at first legal light, I would go get a weapon from the truck and hunt.

She told me NO.  I then asked if I can just go out to the WMA and look around with nightvision (not hunting) and she said no again.

What you guys think about this?  I don't see anything illegal about it


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## goob (Apr 9, 2008)

you should be able to go look at night but I dont know about setting up on them? I dont think theres a law against looking at "trees" at night.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 9, 2008)

goob said:


> you should be able to go look at night but I dont know about setting up on them? I dont think theres a law against looking at "trees" at night.



Me either, I might call again and talk to someone else.


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## Echo (Apr 9, 2008)

cpowel10 said:


> Well I called the Albany office and asked if I could go to the WMA and look for hogs with a night vision monocular (not attached to any kind of weapon) to find hogs. I told her I wouldn't be hunting them at night, just looking for them.....If they are still around at first legal light, I would go get a weapon from the truck and hunt.
> 
> She told me NO. I then asked if I can just go out to the WMA and look around with nightvision (not hunting) and she said no again.
> 
> What you guys think about this? I don't see anything illegal about it


 
If the answer you got was no I would drop it myself. Have you been unable to kill a hog using standard and legal hunting methods?


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## cpowel10 (Apr 9, 2008)

Echo said:


> If the answer you got was no I would drop it myself. Have you been unable to kill a hog using standard and legal hunting methods?



This is just an idea I had, I don't know a lot about hogs anyway.

The question is whether or not it is legal.


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## Echo (Apr 9, 2008)

cpowel10 said:


> This is just an idea I had, I don't know a lot about hogs anyway.
> 
> The question is whether or not it is legal.


 

Apparently it is not legal on WMA's from what you were told but I guess there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion.

You're on the right track as far as catching a hog in an opening at first light goes......they have poor eyesight and can be very vulnerable to spot and stalk hunting early in the day before they typically head to thicker cover. Good luck with your hog hunting.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 9, 2008)

Echo said:


> Apparently it is not legal on WMA's from what you were told but I guess there is nothing wrong with getting a second opinion.
> 
> You're on the right track as far as catching a hog in an opening at first light goes......they have poor eyesight and can be very vulnerable to spot and stalk hunting early in the day before they typically head to thicker cover. Good luck with your hog hunting.



I was surprised how oblivious they can be to someone sneaking up on them. I shot at two last year with my bow, the first was a complete choke on my part and I hit the second one but couldn't find him.  Here's a link http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=130407


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## polaris30144 (Apr 9, 2008)

I think the only "kicker" here is WMA. You can only hunt hogs on a WMA during another open season with proper weapon for that season. The exception is if they have an open season for particular dates for hogs on a given WMA, then it is covered by special regs.

Private land and WMA's have different regulations when it comes to hogs. Apparently hogs are protected on WMA's if no other season is in effect.


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## GobbleAndGrunt78 (Apr 10, 2008)

I find this subject to be very interesting. I think hunting them at night with thermal/NVGs would be a unique new take on the sport (apparently JAGER is way ahead of us).

Just looked in Reg's book.....WMA reg's page 17 under Feral Hog says "No Night Hunting". I don't see anywhere in reg's about not being able to be in the woods of a WMA at night, nor ANY mention of thermal/NVG anywhere in the entire book. So legally, I'd assume you could scout at night and hunt with a thermal or NVG scope for any game animal during legal shooting hours.

You've definitely found a VERY grey area in the regulations!


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## cpowel10 (Apr 11, 2008)

GobbleAndGrunt78 said:


> I find this subject to be very interesting. I think hunting them at night with thermal/NVGs would be a unique new take on the sport (apparently JAGER is way ahead of us).
> 
> Just looked in Reg's book.....WMA reg's page 17 under Feral Hog says "No Night Hunting". I don't see anywhere in reg's about not being able to be in the woods of a WMA at night, nor ANY mention of thermal/NVG anywhere in the entire book. So legally, I'd assume you could scout at night and hunt with a thermal or NVG scope for any game animal during legal shooting hours.
> 
> You've definitely found a VERY grey area in the regulations!



Yea I know!  I couldn't find anything prohibiting you from being on a WMA scouting at night, it just says no hunting.

............man I wish it was deer season, I wouldn't be coming up with weird ideas like this!


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## huntenfool (Apr 11, 2008)

By looking through nightvision you're not "disturbing the wildlife". So I don't see any problems.


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## redneckcamo (Apr 11, 2008)

the government loves too say no ! ....sounds cool tho ....!


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## MIG (Apr 11, 2008)

Spoke to a secretary did you?  You might want to get your "second opinion" from an officer.

BTW, what you describe isn't prohibited under law, rule, or regulation - so long as you leave the weapon behind.


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## Randy (Apr 11, 2008)

And after July 1 (assuming the gov. signs this new bill) if you are using a handgun you can carry the gun to.  You're not hunting just carrying as allowed by the new law.


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## Kawaliga (Apr 11, 2008)

I have found in the past, unless you talk to a biologist, wildlife technician or Conservation Officer, you won't get any satisfactory answers to a question like that.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 11, 2008)

So shoud I call back and ask to talk to an officer, or ask for an officers number?  I think we're right about it being legal to look at wildlife at night as long as I'm not shining a light on them and as long as I'm not hunting.


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## goob (Apr 12, 2008)

as long as your not "harrassing wildlife" it should be okay. Id get an officer to call you about it. If they say "no" about setting up on them before daylight, then ask him why turkey hunters are the exception. I mean think about it, alot of turkey hunters go roost a bird, and set up on it before daylight the next morning. Yes even on WMA's.


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## cnutter (Apr 12, 2008)

Write to the DNR and ask for a clearification on the matter.  Spell out exactly what you want to do and see what kinda of responce you get.  Something like this might work....



> To whom it may concern,
> 
> I am interested in hunting on a WMA for feral pigs/hogs.  To this end I am interested in scoutimg (NOT HUNTING) for feral hogs on a WMA at night using my Night Vision device. This would be done with out a weapon and would not be hunting only scouting them in an atempt to locate them for my next days hunt during legal hunting hours.  Would it be legal to scout for feral pigs at night with night vision on a WMA for the purpose of hunting them the next day?   Thank you for your reponce.
> 
> Yourname




The best thing is if you get a YES you can you now have it in writing and if someone gives you a hard time you just show them the letter stating you can do it.   If  they say no you can drop the idea.


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## fishbum2000 (Apr 12, 2008)

MIG said:


> Spoke to a secretary did you?  You might want to get your "second opinion" from an officer.
> 
> BTW, what you describe isn't prohibited under law, rule, or regulation - so long as you leave the weapon behind.



pretty sure this guy would know


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## cpowel10 (Apr 12, 2008)

Ok I just sent an email.  This is what it said.  Thanks Cnutter I used your message and added a little to it.

I am interested in hunting on a WMA for feral pigs/hogs. To this end I am interested in scouting (NOT HUNTING) for feral hogs on a WMA at night using my Night Vision device. This would be done with out a weapon and would not be hunting only scouting them in an attempt to locate them for my next days hunt during legal hunting hours. Would it be legal to scout for feral pigs at night with night vision on a WMA for the purpose of hunting them the next day? 

I called the Albany office and was told NO, but I cannot find anywhere in the regulations where it says it is illegal to do this.  If the answer is no, can you point out what law makes it illegal to look at wildlife with a handheld nightvision device not attached to a weapon on a WMA?  I've heard differing opinions about this question and would like to get an official answer.  Thanks for your time, _my name_


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## MIG (Apr 14, 2008)

cpowel10,

I've considered another point, one which didn't occur to me initially...see the PM.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 14, 2008)

MIG said:


> cpowel10,
> 
> I've considered another point, one which didn't occur to me initially...see the PM.



Thanks for the PM, sent ya one back


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## hogdgz (Apr 15, 2008)

Clint, you always have to make things complicated. LOL!!!


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## Twenty five ought six (Apr 15, 2008)

> Write to the DNR and ask for a clearification on the matter. Spell out exactly what you want to do and see what kinda of responce you get. Something like this might work....



What he said.

On the few occasions I've received different opinions from DNR personal, I've written the Commissioner.

I've always received a prompt and complete response to my question.

You can jack around with phone calls to whoever answers the phone, and e-mails, but if you want to get the "real" answer, and something you can use to cover your butt, write the Commissioner a real letter.

I suspect that unless you receive specific permission from the area manager, DNR isn't going to be too thrilled about you tromping around a WMA in the dark.  But then they may-- so write the Commissioner.


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## Apex Predator (Apr 15, 2008)

It may be legal, but is it "fair chase"?   How about spotting them from the air?  You can probably buy pork just as cheap.  Why hunt at all?  Sounds like an ethics questions to me.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 15, 2008)

Apex Predator said:


> It may be legal, but is it "fair chase"?   How about spotting them from the air?  You can probably buy pork just as cheap.  Why hunt at all?  Sounds like an ethics questions to me.



In my opinion (and almost every other person who has seen the effects of wild hogs on agriculture) there is no such thing as "fair chase" when in comes to pigs.  The only thing I would see as cruel would be to make a hog suffer, but figuring out ways to kill him quickly with an arrow (or rifle) is fine in my book.

I think any method that lets you make an quick ethical kill on a hog within the boundaries of the law is fine, the question I was raising is the legality of it.  I would never even think of using this method to take deer, but hogs are an extremely destructive pest that needs to be removed.  They are not game animals.

The idea I came up is strictly hypothetical because that is a lot of work to just kill a hog, but I thought it would make a good discussion.


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## Derek Edge (Apr 17, 2008)

Thing is, with some of these people at the DNR, "no" is just the simplest answer.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 17, 2008)

Derek Edge said:


> Thing is, with some of these people at the DNR, "no" is just the simplest answer.



Apparently, or they'll just completely ignore you.  I sent them an email asking about the subject and it said I should receive a reply by three business days.  Well I sent them an Email Sunday and haven't heard back yet


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## Derek Edge (Apr 18, 2008)

Yeah, I sent them an email a while back on something I had a question about, forget what it was, but either way, I never received an email back on it.  Good luck.


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## cpowel10 (Apr 24, 2008)

I still haven't received an answer to my email.  I just sent another


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## ryan_beasley (May 7, 2008)

*would this law apply???*

just wondering (if caught by the right person) that they might could argue that this is Use of an Electronic Device in Pursuit of Game???  Which is the law used by some saying that CB radios are illegal, electronic calls, laser sights, etc.  I may be a bit off on the specifics of this law, but i'm sure if THE MAN wants to write you a ticket he will for something... As far as your idea on how to do it...anything to keep hunters in the woods sounds like a great idea to me!  good post!


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## JAGER (May 7, 2008)

ryan_beasley said:


> just wondering (if caught by the right person) that they might could argue that this is Use of an Electronic Device in Pursuit of Game???  Which is the law used by some saying that CB radios are illegal, electronic calls, laser sights, etc...



I speak at many events about feral hog control using infrared equipment at night, radio frequency tracking during the day and also high-volume trapping methods. The use of electronic devices only applies to legal game species. Feral hogs are considered an invasive species, non-game and non-wildlife. 



Apex Predator said:


> It may be legal, but is it "fair chase"?  Why hunt at all?  Sounds like an ethics questions to me.



We need to change our mindset about hogs and stop trying to manage them like a game species. Feral hogs reach sexual maturity at 6-8 months old and give birth at 10-12 months since their gestation period is 114 days (3 months, 3 weeks, 3 days). In Georgia, sows will have two litters every year. No other large species is capable of producing multiple large broods every year starting at such an early age or causes the economic damage to crops and vegetation.

We need to kill 60-70% of the hog population each year just to break even. Farmers need high-volume removal solutions. Traditional hunting during the day is not effective in reducing hog populations. Hogs are very intelligent. They turn completely nocturnal after little hunting pressure and bed down in the thickest cover possible during the day. 

One high-volume method is to use ear tag transmitters. Set a large corral trap to catch an entire sounder group at one time. Then kill every hog in the trap except the youngest gilt (female). Lock an ear tag transmitter (picture below) to her ear, ensure you get a signal on your receiver, then turn her loose. Gilts are very social animals. She will immediately find another group. This method is called the "Judas Pig" technique. 

Now you can track her location (and the group) with your receiver when they bed down every day. You are now better equipped to effectively remove high numbers using dogs or other hunters. We have harvested nearly 1000 hogs during the past three years (158 in the last three months) for local farmers using these methods. 

Feral hogs are NOT a game species. Everyone needs to stop trying to apply the same conservation ethics, game laws, management and hunting methods to them as deer. The only legal problem you are dealing with on this thread is the WMA politics. WMAs operate on a different set of rules than the rest of the state.

---JAGER


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## Coastalbowhunter1986 (May 19, 2008)

Jager in southeast georgia they "are" a game species.


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## Tom Laubach (May 20, 2008)

Don't the regs say on private land you can hunt hogs with a light 6 volts and under at night?

Is that year round or only when it is not deer season?

And how do you prove you are not hunting deer if stopped?


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## Echo (May 25, 2008)

Coastalbowhunter1986 said:


> Jager in southeast georgia they "are" a game species.


 

Amen to that! If you grew up hunting in these parts hogs have always been a big plus to the local hunting opportunities and are greatly appreciated for the exciting sport they provide as well as being excellent table fare. I never take more of them than I can personally use.


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## JAGER (May 26, 2008)

Coastalbowhunter1986 said:


> Jager in southeast georgia they "are" a game species.



I politely disagree. Just because you treat them as a game species does not mean they are "legally" a game species. There is only one Georgia regulation. It states hogs are NOT considered a "game" animal nor "wildlife". They are property of the landowner in the state of Georgia. 

A large part of the feral hog management problem in the U.S. is that hunters apply the same conservation ethics, game laws and hunting methods to them as deer and elk. See example below.



Echo said:


> Amen to that! If you grew up hunting in these parts hogs have always been a big plus to the local hunting opportunities and are greatly appreciated for the exciting sport they provide as well as being excellent table fare. I never take more of them than I can personally use.



Thanks for helping me prove my point. You are a very ethical hunter and never kill more hogs than you can personally eat. I applaud you for being a good conservationist. However, let me engage everyone in a hog "math" problem.

A female hog is sexually mature in 6-8 months old and produces two litters each year, birthing 7-9 pigs. Look at the growth if only six survive, half male and half female. 

Begin with 1 boar and 1 sow:
1st year:   14 (12 piglets and 2 adults)
2nd year:   53
3rd year:   248
4th year:   1,145
5th year:   5,318 (average hog lives to be 5 years old)
6th year:   24,701 (if the average hog lives 5 years, the offspring will continue to reproduce)

Most hunters on this forum love to hunt hogs. Great! Let's get to it. We need to do a better job harvesting them than the state of Texas has in the past before the USDA and Wildlife Services start doing it for us.

---JAGER


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## Echo (May 27, 2008)

---JAGER/{quote}Thanks for helping me prove my point. You are a very ethical hunter and never kill more hogs than you can personally eat. I applaud you for being a good conservationist. However, let me engage everyone in a hog "math" problem.

A female hog is sexually mature in 6-8 months old and produces two litters each year, birthing 7-9 pigs. Look at the growth if only six survive, half male and half female. 

Begin with 1 boar and 1 sow:
1st year: 14 (12 piglets and 2 adults)
2nd year: 53
3rd year: 248
4th year: 1,145
5th year: 5,318 (average hog lives to be 5 years old)
6th year: 24,701 (if the average hog lives 5 years, the offspring will continue to reproduce)

Most hunters on this forum love to hunt hogs. Great! Let's get to it. We need to do a better job harvesting them than the state of Texas has in the past before the USDA and Wildlife Services start doing it for us.

---JAGER[/quote]







First let me say that I have no problem with with your hog hunting methods or goals. If you're working with private land owners and farmers whose land and income may be at risk because of high hog numbers then you're providing them with a valuable service.

I am also well aware of the wild hogs remarkable reproductive potential but I don't buy into the theory that they cannot be controlled through regular sport hunting. It may require an almost year-round effort but I have seen it work on very large tracts of land that I hunt on ( Fort Stewart & Tuckahoe WMA in particular ).

Tuckahoe was once one of the best WMA's for hogs in the state and has outstanding hog habitat but once word got out about the great numbers of hogs available hordes of hunters came there with the intent of collecting pork chops. Now the hog numbers have dwindled to the point that you no longer have a very realistic chance of killing one there. No doubt a lot of folks would applaud that fact but I think the hunting experience is a little poorer because of it.


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## JAGER (May 27, 2008)

Echo said:


> I don't buy into the theory that they cannot be controlled through regular sport hunting. I have seen it work on very large tracts of land that I hunt on (Fort Stewart & Tuckahoe WMA in particular).
> 
> Tuckahoe was once one of the best WMA's for hogs in the state. Now the hog numbers have dwindled to the point that you no longer have a very realistic chance of killing one there.



Echo,

This is valuable information. I am going to contact the Tuckahoe WMA manager or wildlife biologist. We need documented success that supports hunting as an effective tool to control feral hog populations. This goes a long way to offer proof at National events to protect hog hunting in the state of Georgia.

Thanks, ---JAGER


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## Echo (May 27, 2008)

JAGER said:


> Echo,
> 
> This is valuable information. I am going to contact the Tuckahoe WMA manager or wildlife biologist. We need documented success that supports hunting as an effective tool to control feral hog populations. This goes a long way to offer proof at National events to protect hog hunting in the state of Georgia.
> 
> Thanks, ---JAGER


 
Glad I could help! Howard Pope is the area manager over there at Tuckahoe and I'm sure he can give you some info on the past hog hunting success and the recent lack thereof on the WMA.


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## whitetailgitr (May 27, 2008)

i thought it was legal to hunt hogs at night in GA as long as your lights was 6volts or less idk bout on a WMA but i could of swore it was legal


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## cpowel10 (May 27, 2008)

whitetailgitr said:


> i thought it was legal to hunt hogs at night in GA as long as your lights was 6volts or less idk bout on a WMA but i could of swore it was legal



The question was about the legality of doing it on a WMA.  It says no night hunting for hogs on WMAs, but the question was whether or not it would considered hunting if you were only locating them at night, and waiting to first legal light to shoot them.


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