# Thoughts on Job



## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey guys, I have been wanting to throw this out there to get your thoughts on it, so here goes.......I hope I can get some thoughtful and articulate responses.  Please don't use this as a thread to question faith.  I want to discuss the book and what positives may derived from the story.

The book of Job.  Of all the books of the OT, this one gives me the most, well, "pause."  After many years of wrestling with my faith, I came back.  However, reading the book of Job makes me wonder why anybody would want to be "sold out" in faith.  I don't see the story as having a happy ending, and it appears as if the man, and his family, sufferred just to prove a point.  My main areas of contention are these:

1. The story is strange in that you have two deities in a contest determining who can win, and a man is caught in the middle.  It sounds like a story from other cultures which believed in many gods.
2. In the end, Job gets everything back, but his first set of kids is killed.  How does this work out good for them?  They die to prove a point?
3. If satan can do all of the things that happened to job, how is anybody safe?  Most of us would argue that we would rather harm come to us than our children.
4. Could this story be a metaphor.  Like the prodigal son.  That explanation makes the most sense to me, and elliminates the previous points of contention.

What do y'all think?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> 1. The story is strange in that you have two deities in a contest determining who can win, and a man is caught in the middle.  It sounds like a story from other cultures which believed in many gods.



No...there is but one deity.  God will always control all.  But you're right.  Job was caught in the middle of the argument or contest between Satan and God.



JB0704 said:


> 2. In the end, Job gets everything back, but his first set of kids is killed.  How does this work out good for them?  They die to prove a point?



Umm...not too well for them, although it appears that they were all saved and were taken to Heaven for eternity.  Not such a bad thing after all.  




JB0704 said:


> 3. If satan can do all of the things that happened to job, how is anybody safe?  Most of us would argue that we would rather harm come to us than our children.



Satan had to ask permission of God.  God allowed all of that to happen.  I think this lines up well with the book of James.



JB0704 said:


> 4. Could this story be a metaphor.  Like the prodigal son.  That explanation makes the most sense to me, and elliminates the previous points of contention.



It could be, but that is not the style of writing nor the context.  So...no...I don't believe it to be a metaphor.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> No...there is but one deity.  God will always control all.  But you're right.  Job was caught in the middle of the argument or contest between Satan and God.



From an unbelievers perspectvie, they would both be viewed as deities.

So, does it serve as a "warning" to anybody who struggles to advance in faith?  You could end up like Job, in between two forces.....



rjcruiser said:


> Umm...not too well for them, although it appears that they were all saved and were taken to Heaven for eternity.  Not such a bad thing after all.


 
None of us would trade eternity for today, or we would have done so by now.....think about it.......



rjcruiser said:


> Satan had to ask permission of God.  God allowed all of that to happen.  I think this lines up well with the book of James.



Which is the biggest "sticker" for me, Job was punished, his kids were killed, all for good behavior.


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## stringmusic (Sep 6, 2011)

Interesting debate.........
starts around the 4:15 mark.

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these are parts 2 of 11, 3 of 11 and 4 of 11 of the discussion, check it out on youtube if you want to watch the rest of it. Not all of it is about Job.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

Hey String, I will watch shortly, but to address the thread, how do you view the book of Job, I only see it as a warning to believers.  I know in the end he ends up with more, but would he have traded his first kids for his second?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> From an unbelievers perspectvie, they would both be viewed as deities.



But you are a believer, right?  You don't think Satan is, was and will always be, do you?

They are not both deities.  If you don't get the ground rules right, everything else will be off.




JB0704 said:


> So, does it serve as a "warning" to anybody who struggles to advance in faith?  You could end up like Job, in between two forces......



No...Job was not struggling in his faith.  He was a model A citizen.  The point is that God is in control of all.  Rom 8:28.  All things work together for good to those who know and love Christ.

James 1...Know that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

They all align with each other.



JB0704 said:


> None of us would trade eternity for today, or we would have done so by now.....think about it........



Not true.  Suicide is not an option.

But as Paul said, to live is Christ, to die is gain.

If you are confident in your faith, this is true.  If you are not confident in your faith, this is not true.  



JB0704 said:


> Which is the biggest "sticker" for me, Job was punished, his kids were killed, all for good behavior.



No...it had nothing to do with behavior.  It had everything to do with God showing all that He is God and that Job loved Him no matter what.

It is an important lesson for all Christians as well.  Do I love God so much that no matter what my circumstances are, I will continue to obey and praise Him?  May we all be like Job.


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## formula1 (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re:*

1) God is the deity in charge. Satan's authority is subject to God's. This displays the battle that is over the spiritual walk of the believer. God can relinquish His authority.  Otherwise, we stand completely safe in Him.  He would do so only to improve our spiritual walk with Him and assure our trust is well grounded in Him.

2) Eternity for the children of Job is not such a bad thing. In fact, it is the best thing, and further, they did not choose it. I would say I long for eternity with my Father in heaven as it is the culmination of Life in Him. yet by the same token I don't get to choose the time as that is in God's hands.  I accept that truth!

3) Satan can only do those things with God's permission.  I feel completely safe. God is only going to allow things in my life for my eternal benefit. 

4) I don't really think it is a metaphor, primarily because it is referenced as truth in the New Testament, adding validity to it.  James 5:11

To advertise, the Daily Bible Verse for today is from Job.


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## stringmusic (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Hey String, I will watch shortly, but to address the thread, how do you view the book of Job, I only see it as a warning to believers.  I know in the end he ends up with more,* but would he have traded his first kids for his second?*


I have no idea what he would have or have not chosen.

 I have never studied the book of Job for whatever reason so I wouldn't have much to comment on. Short thoughts would be that pain and suffering in the short time here on this earth is not as bad as we think it is. I am not sure why God would make a bet with satan or why satan would do the same, especially satan knowing Gods Omniscence. It seems as though in the end Job got exactly what he wanted, would he have sacrificed his children and gone through the things he did for his faithfulness in God if he had forknowledge? I think that is why God chose him and we are talking about it 1,000's of years later.


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## stringmusic (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> 1) God is the deity in charge. Satan's authority is subject to God's. This displays the battle that is over the spiritual walk of the believer. God can relinquish His authority.  Otherwise, we stand completely safe in Him.  He would do so only to improve our spiritual walk with Him and assure our trust is well grounded in Him.
> 
> 2) Eternity for the children of Job is not such a bad thing. In fact, it is the best thing, and further, they did not choose it. I would say I long for eternity with my Father in heaven as it is the culmination of Life in Him. yet by the same token I don't get to choose the time as that is in God's hands.  I accept that truth!
> 
> ...



Watch it formula, you don't want any infractions........


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> But you are a believer, right?  You don't think Satan is, was and will always be, do you?
> 
> They are not both deities.  If you don't get the ground rules right, everything else will be off.



RJ, my thoughts on this matter are that the Bible was written for everybody.  My only point here is that the story sounds like a Greek play where the Gods battle through men.




rjcruiser said:


> No...Job was not struggling in his faith.  He was a model A citizen.  The point is that God is in control of all.  Rom 8:28.  All things work together for good to those who know and love Christ.
> James 1...Know that the testing of your faith produces endurance.
> They all align with each other.



So, is the point of Job that we are to rejoice when bad things happen so God can prove his power over Satan? I am having difficulty understanding how this is encouraging to believers.



rjcruiser said:


> If you are confident in your faith, this is true.  If you are not confident in your faith, this is not true. .



It has nothing to do with faith.  I would venture a guess that, if given a choice, you would choose to remain here and live out your life as opposed to going to heaven today.  Particularly if you have kids to raise.



rjcruiser said:


> No...it had nothing to do with behavior.  It had everything to do with God showing all that He is God and that Job loved Him no matter what.



And, as a believer, do you find comfort in this story?  If Job had not loved God so much, he would not have sufferred so much.  That is my point.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> 1) God is the deity in charge. Satan's authority is subject to God's. This displays the battle that is over the spiritual walk of the believer.



But, to go through so much only because your faith was strong......




formula1 said:


> 2) Eternity for the children of Job is not such a bad thing......I don't get to choose the time as that is in God's hands. .



His kids were "collateral damage" in the battle between good and evil.  It might not be a bad thing for you personally, but would you say that for everybody?



formula1 said:


> 4) I don't really think it is a metaphor, primarily because it is referenced as truth in the New Testament, adding validity to it.  James 5:11



We also find truth in the parables, but they were also metaphors.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Short thoughts would be that pain and suffering in the short time here on this earth is not as bad as we think it is. .



I have said this before, our experiences and perspectives are the only ones we have.



stringmusic said:


> It seems as though in the end Job got exactly what he wanted, would he have sacrificed his children and gone through the things he did for his faithfulness in God if he had forknowledge?



Is that the goal you try to achieve?  To have that level of faith?  

I am not being difficult, and I appreciate the thoughts, but if you take Job literally, it gives me pause to think of what might happen as a result of faith. I mean, just look at Job....


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## formula1 (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re:*

The only thing left to say then is this:

God is God and I am not! 
Job wholly trusted God and so will I.
The Word of God is always Truth.

Good Day!


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> God is God and I am not!



And I don't question that, I am asking for perspective and how the story applies to believers when taken literally. 

I am not trying to start a confrontation, instead, I am hoping to get a discussion going about one aspect of things that is a source of great confusion for me.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> RJ, my thoughts on this matter are that the Bible was written for everybody.  My only point here is that the story sounds like a Greek play where the Gods battle through men.



I imagine (actually I know based on the other sub-forum)that the entire Bible sounds pretty looney to unbelievers.




JB0704 said:


> So, is the point of Job that we are to rejoice when bad things happen so God can prove his power over Satan? I am having difficulty understanding how this is encouraging to believers..



What does James 1 tell us?

vs2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.  

Then further down in verse 12, we're promised eternal life if we persevere through our trials.

That is extremely encouraging to me.  That is the light at the end of the tunnel.



JB0704 said:


> It has nothing to do with faith.  I would venture a guess that, if given a choice, you would choose to remain here and live out your life as opposed to going to heaven today.  Particularly if you have kids to raise.



Some days...yes.  Some days...no.

It is something that I've been working on in my own life over the past several months.  Thinking through...would I rather stay here on this earth, or would I rather Christ return now?  The Lord has been good to me.  I've got it pretty good....but if I say I'd rather stay here, my own perspective on this World is way too good and my perspective on Heaven is way too bad.  

I'd encourage anyone who'd rather stay on Earth to do a study on Heaven.  Why would anyone want to stay on this Earth, with the daily struggles of sin and its curse than go to Heaven?  Just think, eternity with Christ, perfect worship, no struggles, no pain.


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## gtparts (Sep 6, 2011)

What lesson did Job learn? When you understand Job's response, you will understand how we are to respond to similar situations (not necessarily as severe, but that is certainly possible). You seem to be "trying Job's life on" and asking us to do the same, for perspective. I am not sure that we are to see ourselves as analysts of God's wisdom or goodness. And, I don't think any of us have ever had the relationship with God that Job had, though I may be wrong. 

The most interesting thing to me is that Scripture never indicates that Job ever got an explanation or apology. He was not owed one! God takes the time to respond at the end of the story this way.

Job 40

 1 Then the Lord said to Job,

 2 “Do you still want to argue with the Almighty?
      You are God’s critic, but do you have the answers?”
Job Responds to the Lord
 3 Then Job replied to the Lord,

 4 “I am nothing—how could I ever find the answers?
      I will cover my mouth with my hand.
 5 I have said too much already.
      I have nothing more to say.”


 6 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind:

 7 “Brace yourself like a man,
      because I have some questions for you,
      and you must answer them.

 8 “Will you discredit my justice
      and condemn me just to prove you are right?
 9 Are you as strong as God?
      Can you thunder with a voice like his?
 10 All right, put on your glory and splendor,
      your honor and majesty.
 11 Give vent to your anger.
      Let it overflow against the proud.
 12 Humiliate the proud with a glance;
      walk on the wicked where they stand.
 13 Bury them in the dust.
      Imprison them in the world of the dead.
 14 Then even I would praise you,
      for your own strength would save you.

 15 “Take a look at Behemoth,
      which I made, just as I made you.
      It eats grass like an ox.
 16 See its powerful loins
      and the muscles of its belly.
 17 Its tail is as strong as a cedar.
      The sinews of its thighs are knit tightly together.
 18 Its bones are tubes of bronze.
      Its limbs are bars of iron.
 19 It is a prime example of God’s handiwork,
      and only its Creator can threaten it.
 20 The mountains offer it their best food,
      where all the wild animals play.
 21 It lies under the lotus plants,
      hidden by the reeds in the marsh.
 22 The lotus plants give it shade
      among the willows beside the stream.
 23 It is not disturbed by the raging river,
      not concerned when the swelling Jordan rushes around it.
 24 No one can catch it off guard
      or put a ring in its nose and lead it away. 

Job 41 continues to point out Job's inability to compare himself to God.

Then the book concludes as below. 

Job 42

 1 Then Job replied to the Lord:

 2 “I know that you can do anything,
      and no one can stop you.
 3 You asked, ‘Who is this that questions my wisdom with such ignorance?’
      It is I—and I was talking about things I knew nothing about,
      things far too wonderful for me.
 4 You said, ‘Listen and I will speak!
      I have some questions for you,
      and you must answer them.’
 5 I had only heard about you before,
      but now I have seen you with my own eyes.
 6 I take back everything I said,
      and I sit in dust and ashes to show my repentance.”


 7 After the Lord had finished speaking to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite: “I am angry with you and your two friends, for you have not spoken accurately about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and offer a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer on your behalf. I will not treat you as you deserve, for you have not spoken accurately about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite, and Zophar the Naamathite did as the Lord commanded them, and the Lord accepted Job’s prayer.

 10 When Job prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes. In fact, the Lord gave him twice as much as before! 11 Then all his brothers, sisters, and former friends came and feasted with him in his home. And they consoled him and comforted him because of all the trials the Lord had brought against him. And each of them brought him a gift of money and a gold ring.

 12 So the Lord blessed Job in the second half of his life even more than in the beginning. For now he had 14,000 sheep, 6,000 camels, 1,000 teams of oxen, and 1,000 female donkeys. 13 He also gave Job seven more sons and three more daughters. 14 He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch. 15 In all the land no women were as lovely as the daughters of Job. And their father put them into his will along with their brothers.

 16 Job lived 140 years after that, living to see four generations of his children and grandchildren. 17 Then he died, an old man who had lived a long, full life. 

In the final analysis, those who love God and give Him proper place in their lives do not need to know "Why?". Their faith and trust causes them to know they are secure, regardless of circumstances.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd encourage anyone who'd rather stay on Earth to do a study on Heaven.  Why would anyone want to stay on this Earth, with the daily struggles of sin and its curse than go to Heaven?  Just think, eternity with Christ, perfect worship, no struggles, no pain.



I appreciate your thoughts.  But, what is it about your faith that allows to to "consider it all joy."  Can you imagine going through Job's situation and remaining optimistic that all your kids died and you lost everything so that God could prove a point?  I know it sounds like heresy, but it is an honest question with no ill motives behind it.

As far as heaven goes, I struggle with that concept as well.  I don't want a mansion with golden streets.  I want an old shack in the woods.  I love to hunt, and cook bbq, and fish.  None of these things are present in heaven.  

Let's reframe the question, remove Christ's return, would you rather go to heaven today and leave your loved ones behind?  I know the answer for myself, and it is why I have so much trouble with the book of Job.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

gtparts said:


> What lesson did Job learn? When you understand Job's response, you will understand how we are to respond to similar situations (not necessarily as severe, but that is certainly possible). You seem to be "trying Job's life on" and asking us to do the same, for perspective. I am not sure that we are to see ourselves as analysts of God's wisdom or goodness. And, I don't think any of us have ever had the relationship with God that Job had, though I may be wrong.
> 
> In the final analysis, those who love God and give Him proper place in their lives do not need to know "Why?". Their faith and trust causes them to know they are secure, regardless of circumstances.



Good post GT, and the scripture does reinforce your perspective.  But what if you were Job's kids, caught up in the middle of a bet that had nothing to do with you? What if your life was ended to prove your father had faith?  I know the knee-jerk reaction is to say "God is in control and it is not my place to question that."  But, for me, the honest response is to say "that makes no sense."  And I firmly believe God wants to be understood, which is why Jesus was also a man.

Job's kids were not the only collateral damage in the Bible.  It seems these folks are overlooked when we study scripture.  Take the Roman guards who were executed for falling asleep so Peter could escape, not a happy story for them either.  From a human perspective (the one we have which was given to us by God), it is very confusing.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I appreciate your thoughts.  But, what is it about your faith that allows to to "consider it all joy."  Can you imagine going through Job's situation and remaining optimistic that all your kids died and you lost everything so that God could prove a point?  I know it sounds like heresy, but it is an honest question with no ill motives behind it.
> 
> As far as heaven goes, I struggle with that concept as well.  I don't want a mansion with golden streets.  I want an old shack in the woods.  I love to hunt, and cook bbq, and fish.  None of these things are present in heaven.
> 
> Let's reframe the question, remove Christ's return, would you rather go to heaven today and leave your loved ones behind?  I know the answer for myself, and it is why I have so much trouble with the book of Job.



I gotcha.

Nope never been through trials like Jobs.  Been through a few that I thought were pretty intense at the time.  Forced me to trust in God even more than I did.  God provided, and I know my faith grew because of it.  Looking back, do I wish to go through them again?  No....but I know my faith is stronger because of it.

I see your point as far as Heaven goes...I'm with you on the woods and such....and I'm not sure how it will all be set up.  I just know that it will be the best thing ever.  Also, I know what it is like to be in such great worship with God and I enjoy that feeling.  To know that that feeling will only be intensified and be better in Heaven makes me all the more excited.

Then, add no more pain, sorry, guilt, grief....I think even if there is no hunting, I'll be fine.


As far as leaving wife/kids/family behind.  No...I don't want that.  But I know that God is in control and He has them in His hands.  He will provide for them.  He will protect them.  He will do a better job than I could ever hope to.  To think that I can control their circumstances and destiny is rather foolish.  

I think it all goes back to how big or little is your view of God?  There is an adverse relationship between your view of self and your view of God.  As your view of God gets bigger, your view of yourself gets smaller.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> I think it all goes back to how big or little is your view of God?  There is an adverse relationship between your view of self and your view of God.  As your view of God gets bigger, your view of yourself gets smaller.



It's funny, but my whole life I have thought that heaven, as traditionally taught with all the singing and mansions and golden streets, sounded pretty dull.  Maybe there is a corner for the "country folk."

As far as my view of God goes, I just have trouble understanding what the point of the story is, which is to say it does not enlarge my view of God.  It strikes me as a very sad story.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 6, 2011)

> So, is the point of Job that we are to rejoice when bad things happen so God can prove his power over Satan? I am having difficulty understanding how this is encouraging to believers.



Yes.  We rejoice when bad things happen.  Yes.  We praise and glorify his name when bad things happen and we don't understand.

WHY?




> ...but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.
> 
> (Romans 5:1-5 ESV)


We rejoice in our sufferings because it produces endurance....and endurance produces character...and character produces hope...

... and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 6, 2011)

> If Job had not loved God so much, he would not have sufferred so much. That is my point.



Correct....and he suffered...and produced endurance...and produced character...and produced hope...that does not disappoint.

Rejoice in ALL things.  Counter-cultural in our "woe is me" society?  Absolutely.


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## formula1 (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re:*

God has taught us many things about himself in the scriptures and in His Son. He made this revelation that we know available to us to lead us to Christ. This God wanted us to know and be intimately involved with Him. Job trusted God no matter what and gained a deeper confidence in Him as a result of the experience.  

Having said that, if God doesn't want you to know something, there is little you can do about it. You will not know!  So I guess I don't stress over it since if He wants me to understand something, He will reveal it.  That's good enough for me.

If it is not good enough for you, I understand. Then take it up with Him.  Perhaps, he will reveal more of Himself to you, and that would be a good thing for your spiritual walk.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> 1) God is the deity in charge. Satan's authority is subject to God's. This displays the battle that is over the spiritual walk of the believer. God can relinquish His authority.  Otherwise, we stand completely safe in Him.  He would do so only to improve our spiritual walk with Him and assure our trust is well grounded in Him.
> 
> 2) Eternity for the children of Job is not such a bad thing. In fact, it is the best thing, and further, they did not choose it. I would say I long for eternity with my Father in heaven as it is the culmination of Life in Him. yet by the same token I don't get to choose the time as that is in God's hands.  I accept that truth!
> 
> ...



When I read James I find his expression of truth as not expressed as literal fact...but rather it is full of figures of speech. Which is in keeping with some of people of his culture to this day... but also with the speach of  people "with religion".


Few examples:
And the cries of the harvesters have come to the ears of the Lord of hosts.

;and theor rust will be testimony against you and it will devour your flesh as if it were fire.

See how the farmer waiths expectantly for the precious harvest from the land.

This does not sound like a man who would read Job other than as methaphor. But I can be wrong...

In any case...one can substitute Job for individuals through out history, for nations, for cultures etc.... Job is not unlike in miniature,  of the great code of scripture: Job falls and is forced to questioning God as possibly unjust, to question what is rightious etc...and  yet Job never gives up on God and when Job sees the error of his "way" and does not linger to question God as unjust, Job is restored. In faith Job always was...

 The first generation of Isreal is saved from slavery in Egypte and falls shortly after, having to suffer wondering. They are saved again as they are given their promised land and become a people and then loose this a couple of times because of sin and this continues.... The story of Job is not unlike this.

Job is spiritually tested. Just like we all are. "If there is a God why did he permit Robert Kennedy to be shot?" "If there is a God why did he permit free trade and socialist economics?" "If there is a God why are there still Roman Catholics, Masons and Johovah's Witnesses?" "If there is a God why are  my parents unemployed?"

The twentieth century suffered two great wars. 
The story of Job was the story of countless individuals who lived at this time. They had it all, they lost it all and for many this inclued their hearts and minds, their families and yet some held on to the hem of Justice.

Some were serverely scandalized by injustice and it is not strange that they would think that man was a creature of no greater worth than the animals and God impossible to understand for having created man and his world. And yet like Job, when they made God the author of Justice and not accused of injustice, they were restored to live, with families, good neighbours, happiness, courage etc...

I find that Job is a methaphore, and the "truth" of Job is in his relationship with God in his test of faith. It is a relationship we can all understand because we share it or have shared it. The question has been expressed as "Why?" and the answer often given back is "Why not?"

People's families and fortunes can be destroyed in a blink of an eye. To blame the destruction on God, for the sorrow we have for Job, is what we do when we read it at face value. But as we cannot blame the author of the sun for the effects of wind in our lives, in our lives we cannot blame God for the stock market crash and that our children have chronic illness. In this way Job is a methaphore to look at the events of our own lives and how we use or abuse God. We are our own devils.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 6, 2011)

> And I firmly believe God wants to be understood, which is why Jesus was also a man.



But there are secret things that God has chosen not to reveal...aren't there?

“The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever..."


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

Between the story of Job and the story of Abraham being ask to sacrifice his son, is 2 reasons I ran far, far,far, away from God for so many years. I was brought up only on heckfire and brimstone and the crusifiction and Mary watching her Son die, and sodom, and exodus....

Maybe that's why I seek the fruit of the spirit today. I never knew about joy, Christians weren't suppose to be joyful, they were to be longsuffering and broke and poor and selfsacrificing to the point of misery, and live like it was heck on earth, to get a ticket into heaven. 

Without other teaching, I would've still been in that dark place.

Yes, believe it or not,even TBN contributed to my rededication to Christ, realizing, yes there is joy, hope, goodness and it was ok to be happy as a Christian....I never knew that, I wasn't taught that growing up. I was taught the wrath of God in the OT, and the birth and death of Christ, everything else I got 30 years later.

Like someone said in another thread...balance is a good thing!


ETA I don't watch tbn anymore, one reason is because I got dogged for it, but since it lead me back to Christ, that just goes to prove that even things of satan can bring you to a clear understanding of ALL Christ has to offer us.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I was brought up only on heckfire and brimstone and the crusifiction and Mary watching her Son die, and sodom, and exodus....
> 
> ....it was ok to be happy as a Christian....I never knew that, I wasn't taught that growing up. I was taught the wrath of God in the OT, and the birth and death of Christ



X2.  However, once I realized the hope, grace, and forgiveness in Christ, Job made me pause, and consider what exactly I was getting into.  I read the book as if never hearing the story, and it is not pleasant.

The way I was taught as a child, God was wrath.  The way I read the NT, God is love (and all that the word involves).  If Job is taken at face value, the God in that story does not seem anything like the God of the NT.  



Gordon 2 said:


> People's families and fortunes can be destroyed in a blink of an eye. To blame the destruction on God, for the sorrow we have for Job, is what we do when we read it at face value. But as we cannot blame the author of the sun for the effects of wind, in our lives we cannot blame God for the stock market crash and that our children have cronic illness. In this way Job is a methaphore to look at the events of our own lives and how we use or abuse God.



Very interesting thoughts on this G2, I have never considered this angle.  I have to kind-of think it over a while, but for now, that makes the most sense of any commentary I have heard on the subject.  I have come to the conclusion that Job was a metaphor, but am struggling with the meaning.  Perhaps you are on to something.....


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But there are secret things that God has chosen not to reveal...aren't there?
> 
> “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever..."



"Our finite human minds cannot comprehend (fill in the blank)" has never been a valid answer for myself.  If God had a hand in writing it, then there must be a message, right?  Or did God have mysteries written for the sake of confusion?  We are supposed to understand why we have hope, so I can't find peace in confusion.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> This God wanted us to know and be intimately involved with Him. Job trusted God no matter what and gained a deeper confidence in Him as a result of the experience.



So, for you, is that the moral of the story?  My concern with that conclusion is all the negatives, from a human perpspective, which occurred to others to make the point. Many characters in the story lost so much more than Job did.  What does the story mean for them?  What if we are close to a man, or woman, of great faith?  Should we be concerned that they will be tested through our demise?  They are legitimate questions.  Which is why I think the story is more than "Job was good for trusting God."


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## rjcruiser (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> It's funny, but my whole life I have thought that heaven, as traditionally taught with all the singing and mansions and golden streets, sounded pretty dull.  Maybe there is a corner for the "country folk."



Or maybe you should find a fellowship group that will show you what true worship is like?  Once you experience it, I don't think you'll think praising and worshiping God for eternity will be so dull....and if you do still find it dull...why even pursue Holiness?



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> As far as my view of God goes, I just have trouble understanding what the point of the story is, which is to say it does not enlarge my view of God.  It strikes me as a very sad story.



Really?  Knowing that God is in control of all doesn't increase your view of Him?  Knowing that He causes all things to work together for good doesn't increase your view of Him?


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> "Our finite human minds cannot comprehend (fill in the blank)" has never been a valid answer for myself.  If God had a hand in writing it, then there must be a message, right?  Or did God have mysteries written for the sake of confusion?  We are supposed to understand why we have hope, so I can't find peace in confusion.



I know where you're coming from on that!


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Or maybe you should find a fellowship group that will show you what true worship is like?  Once you experience it, I don't think you'll think praising and worshiping God for eternity will be so dull....and if you do still find it dull...why even pursue Holiness?



RJ, try to not frame this as a black or white "why bother" kind-of thing.  I hate singing.  Thats why the idea of singing for eternity seems dull.  Its as simple as that.  Maybe if I could sing in my heart while fishing for stripers in the crystal sea before I cooked a bunch of ribs for all the heavenly hosts then we might be on to something.....

As far as finding fellowship groups, lets leave that for another thread. 



rjcruiser said:


> Really?  Knowing that God is in control of all doesn't increase your view of Him?  Knowing that He causes all things to work together for good doesn't increase your view of Him?



My comment has nothing to do with control.  If I believe God created the universe, which I do, then a story about God letting Satan destroy everything around a man to prove the man's faith will not serve to increase my view of God.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

Perhaps, the story of Job might suggest what our life would be if satan is in control  

satan destroys lives if he has the freedom to do so...

Many many people let the things of satan control their lives, been there and done that...nothing but destruction and darkness, loss of blessings and loss of hope.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> RJ, try to not frame this as a black or white "why bother" kind-of thing.  I hate singing.  Thats why the idea of singing for eternity seems dull.  Its as simple as that.  Maybe if I could sing in my heart while fishing for stripers in the crystal sea before I cooked a bunch of ribs for all the heavenly hosts then we might be on to something.....



Okay...I getcha on the singing thing.  But worship doesn't have to be singing.

But really, if you don't want to go to Heaven...and you don't think it is a great place to spend eternity, why live your life for God?  After all, isn't that what Heaven is?  Worshipping God forever?  Maybe that's another thread as well 



			
				JB0704 said:
			
		

> My comment has nothing to do with control.  If I believe God created the universe, which I do, then a story about God letting Satan destroy everything around a man to prove the man's faith will not serve to increase my view of God.



I think your only looking at half of the story in your comment above.  Look at the entire story (like GTP has pointed to above) and I think your view of God will be increased.  If not, I think you're missing the point of the story.



mtnwoman said:


> Perhaps, the story of Job might suggest what our life would be if satan is in control
> 
> satan destroys lives if he has the freedom to do so...
> 
> Many many people let the things of satan control their lives, been there and done that.



Interesting thought.  I've never thought of it that way.  Not sure if I think that the story of Job was for that, but your point is true.  Satan destroys lives....he's like a roaring lion seeking to destroy.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> But really, if you don't want to go to Heaven...and you don't think it is a great place to spend eternity, why live your life for God?  After all, isn't that what Heaven is?  Worshipping God forever?  Maybe that's another thread as well



I didn't say I didn't want to go to heaven, I just don't "get it," for lack of a better term.  But, this reminds me of the song "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die."  I heard David Crowder play it live once when he was on a bluegrass kick.  Even though I am not big into Christian music, that dude is insanely talented.





rjcruiser said:


> I think your only looking at half of the story in your comment above.  Look at the entire story (like GTP has pointed to above) and I think your view of God will be increased.  If not, I think you're missing the point of the story.



Where we disagree is the point of the story. If you believe God created the universe, why would he have to let Job suffer and all of his kids die to prove he is all powerful?  It would make no sense to me.



rjcruiser said:


> Interesting thought.  I've never thought of it that way.



X2, I have gotten some really cool thoughts from this thread from G2 and MW which I had never heard before or considered.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 6, 2011)

> "Our finite human minds cannot comprehend (fill in the blank)" has never been a valid answer for myself. If God had a hand in writing it, then there must be a message, right? Or did God have mysteries written for the sake of confusion? We are supposed to understand why we have hope, so I can't find peace in confusion.



I didn't say he held back everything.  But there is very clear biblical implication that he did hold some knowledge of himself back from us.

Are you under the impression that God has revealed everything about himself?


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I didn't say he held back everything.  But there is very clear biblical implication that he did hold some knowledge of himself back from us.
> 
> Are you under the impression that God has revealed everything about himself?  Really?



HF, I will respond, but only because I am guilty of derailing a few of your threads in the past too.

If you want to argue about the mysteries of God, then I will.  I Peter 3:15 pretty much sums up my thoughts.  From there, it is a series of "if-then" conclusions, such as :

If God had a hand in the Bible, then God intended a message.  I am certain there are mysteries, such as "where did God come from."  But I don't think the point of Job falls into that category, otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to include it.


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## formula1 (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> So, for you, is that the moral of the story?  My concern with that conclusion is all the negatives, from a human perpspective, which occurred to others to make the point. Many characters in the story lost so much more than Job did.  What does the story mean for them?  What if we are close to a man, or woman, of great faith?  Should we be concerned that they will be tested through our demise?  They are legitimate questions.  Which is why I think the story is more than "Job was good for trusting God."



The moral of the story:

Your in good hands with our Heavenly Father, whether you suffer in life or not, whether you have much or little, whether you are or great or small, whether you are sick or well, whether you are employed or unemployed.  No weapon formed against you shall prosper and nothing can separate you from the Love of God. So trust in Him!  The eternal God has you covered no matter what!


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> The moral of the story:
> 
> Your in good hands with our Heavenly Father, whether you suffer in life or not, whether you have much or little, whether you are or great or small, whether you are sick or well, whether you are employed or unemployed.  No weapon formed against you shall prosper and nothing can separate you from the Love of God. So trust in Him!  The eternal God has you covered no matter what!



I appreciate that you feel that way and, in a sense, I envy your position.  So please don't take my commentary as an attempt to change your position, it is only to explain mine....  

.....But I just don't see any love in the story.   I don't see that Job was covered.  In fact, I see the opposite.  He was made to suffer because he had faith.  If he had less faith, then he wouldn't have sufferred.  In addition, people died to prove this point.   These are the reasons why I believe there is more to it, and that it must be metaphorical.


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## formula1 (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I appreciate that you feel that way and, in a sense, I envy your position.  So please don't take my commentary as an attempt to change your position, it is only to explain mine....
> 
> .....But I just don't see any love in the story.   I don't see that Job was covered.  In fact, I see the opposite.  He was made to suffer because he had faith.  If he had less faith, then he wouldn't have sufferred.  In addition, people died to prove this point.   These are the reasons why I believe there is more to it, and that it must be metaphorical.



I didn't get there easily nor am I a solid rock of confidence at every point. Life hurts...but I must trust the Lord...after all when all is said and done(or read and meditated upon)is there anyone else?  

I understand Job to be more of a challenge to figure out for you... I get that.  Must you know and/or understand everything in order to lay your trust in Christ completely? Would that be faith?

Rhetorical questions, not necessarily meant for you to answer publically, but to consider! 

God bless!  I do appreciate you desire to search and study the scriptures.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 6, 2011)

"He was made to suffer because he had faith. If he had less faith, then he wouldn't have sufferred."

With all due respect to this idea I think it is not valid and I don't attribute it to anyone in particular.

Suffering is universal. It does not matter if you are evil or good, moral or immoral. God fearing or think that God is a fabrication of man's brain or genetic meterial.

Take the folk on the AAA forum who say faith and God is not unlike the fun gained in the belief of Santa Claus. I know that when it comes to suffering the tears and mourning is just as real and gut wrecking as someone with faith and a broken heart.

In some ways Job had it easy when he was picking at his boils, at least he had good men, friends, to keep him and his spirit company.


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## Michael F. Gray (Sep 6, 2011)

Your opening statement is based on a false assumption. There are not two dieties. In fact that is the point of the Book of Job, in all of his temptation(s), Job charged not God foolishly. The temptor is a created being who has none of the three characteristics that distinguish the creator from all other beings.  (1) Omniscient, or all knowing (2) Omnipotent, or all powerful  (3)  Omnipresent, or everywhere at the same time. Satin's abilities to tempt Job were limited by God. That's not to say Satin's abilities are not far greater than yours or mine. He was created as an angel to serve the Lord, and cast from heaven because of his pride, and desire to be equal with God. The Lord allows us to endure temptation in order to make us stronger,and better servants. It's how we grow. If you carefully study the promises made to God's people most come with a caveat. They are extended to those "who endure to the end." My endurance is not what I wish it was, yet conversely it is far greater than when my race was begun when I was saved in July of 1976. There is yet another function of Job. I've endured cancer several times. I've lost a son and a granddaughter. In my darkest hours I find comfort in knowing all I've been called to face is nothing like Job endured without sinning. When his own wife charged him to "curse God and die". Job perhaps didn't fully understand why he faced what he did, but,...he dared to trust God through it all. So can we. We have not been promised this life will be easy. Our comfort, our rest comes at the end when we join our Savior in the place of rest he has so long been preparing for us. Take comfort, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye the Trump of God shall sound, and the eastern sky split, and we shall meet him in the air. Then our comfort will far exceed that which we've been called to endure.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

It's on your heart for a reason JB (big D). Keep seeking the answer, I pray for God's peace for you in this, too. Perhaps something that someone says will '*****' your heart and you'll get what you need from it. Know that your understanding will come from God.

I have a hard time with why good people suffer especially when God gives satan full reign as in Job's situation.  Perhaps it has something to do with grace and mercy and that we are under a new covenant now.
Grace and mercy from our Lord Jesus, in this time of searching, for you.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 6, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I didn't get there easily nor am I a solid rock of confidence at every point. Life hurts...but I must trust the Lord...after all when all is said and done(or read and meditated upon)is there anyone else?
> 
> I understand Job to be more of a challenge to figure out for you... I get that.  Must you know and/or understand everything in order to lay your trust in Christ completely? Would that be faith?
> 
> ...



I don't think the OP was  meant as a yearning for trust,but rather as a thirst to drink from God's table with God sitting opposite you. Some people's will to love is not that strong, but for some to love God with all your heart means that Job ( the book) must make sense because God put it in the bible and He ( God) is one of the main characters. Matter of fact He ( God) speaks, gives a sermon, in His unique voice. Unlike the other characters, Job and his friends, God is not sometimes a character and sometimes Himself. God is..... always







be-au-ti-ful.


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## gtparts (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Good post GT, and the scripture does reinforce your perspective.  But what if you were Job's kids, caught up in the middle of a bet that had nothing to do with you? What if your life was ended to prove your father had faith?  I know the knee-jerk reaction is to say "God is in control and it is not my place to question that."  But, for me, the honest response is to say "that makes no sense."  And I firmly believe God wants to be understood, which is why Jesus was also a man.
> 
> Job's kids were not the only collateral damage in the Bible.  It seems these folks are overlooked when we study scripture.  Take the Roman guards who were executed for falling asleep so Peter could escape, not a happy story for them either.  From a human perspective (the one we have which was given to us by God), it is very confusing.



I'll try to take the ??? as you asked them.

1. 





> what if you were Job's kids, caught up in the middle of a bet that had nothing to do with you?



First, I would point out that the "kids" were adults with homes of their own and, second, they , like everything else we tend to see as belonging to Job, were just on loan, "kids" included. So, what if Job was my earthly father? Well, this is probably where you struggle. I know I did. But, here is how I view this hypothetical. If I place anything above my love for my heavenly Father and bringing glory to Him, then I have made of that object an idol. This applies to my life or anything else. I guess the question is, "Why was I created and how am I doing in regard to my intended purpose?" As Job's kid, if my death brings glory to God, I should find that to be my highest calling.

2. 





> What if your life was ended to prove your father had faith?



If Christ does not return before my earthly demise, I am alright with that. I am convinced that God has taken care of the period after my life ends.... in fact, since I understand His salvation, I am convinced my life will not end. I can't get any more honest than that.

Your comments about "collateral damage", including the Roman guards, are the result of placing more value on the "pots" than on the "Potter". Without the Potter, the lumps of clay are less than nothing. Sovereign God answers to no one for what He declares to be right.... or wrong, just as the potter has complete discretion as to what he does with his clay. I am not sure that Job understood that until he had the conversation with God in chapters 40 through 42. It is clear that in the end, Job "got it".


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## gtparts (Sep 6, 2011)

One last point.... I don't think any serious Bible scholar thinks that the book is metaphorical. While it is classified with Psalms, Song of Solomon, Proverbs  and Ecclesiastes as Hebrew Poetry, the specifics of  identifying people and places (names) and numbering the various livestock groups and ages, is consistent with Hebrew History. In fact, it (the book) has been regarded as Wisdom Literature by Jews and Christians, regardless of whether it is taken as fiction or nonfiction. It has tremendous instruction on how we are to relate to God and solid principles of living as a worshiper of the living God.


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## crsdos (Sep 6, 2011)

don't need to put my 2cents in, you got plenty, and some good reading too.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> "He was made to suffer because he had faith. If he had less faith, then he wouldn't have sufferred."
> 
> With all due respect to this idea I think it is not valid and I don't attribute it to anyone in particular.
> 
> Suffering is universal. It does not matter if you are evil or good, moral or immoral. God fearing or think that God is a fabrication of man's brain or genetic meterial.



My point was that Job was picked for this exercise because of his faith.  That was the factor that caused Job to be the "victim" of the story.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Your opening statement is based on a false assumption. There are not two dieties.



I addressed this in subsequent posts.  I used the term "deities" because I was too lazy to write "two supernatural beings," which would be accurate.  I very much wanted to avoid getting hung up on semantics and get to the topic at hand.  

I appreciate your comments.  I was hoping to get as many perspectives as possible, and I believe you were the first to mention endurance.  I cannot imagine being where you have been and claiming that kind of faith.  Thanks for sharing.


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Grace and mercy from our Lord Jesus, in this time of searching, for you.



Thanks MW.  Grace and mercy are the qualities my childhood teaching lacked, and as a result, I pushed away from the faith as hard as I could.  However, when I discovered grace and mercy, the road "home" was easier.  I am working through a lot.  Job has just been a big hurdle to cross.  

I have gotten some good insight here.  I am still thinking through it.........


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks MW.  Grace and mercy are the qualities my childhood teaching lacked, and as a result, I pushed away from the faith as hard as I could.  However, when I discovered grace and mercy, the road "home" was easier.  I am working through a lot. *Me, too. I just couldn't be good enough to fit in in my mind.* Job has just been a big hurdle to cross. *I know, been there.*
> 
> I have gotten some good insight here.  I am still thinking through it.........


 *You'll either get it or you'll come to peace with it.*

In Him I Remain


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> *You'll either get it or you'll come to peace with it.*
> 
> In Him I Remain



I hope you are right MW.  I guess I brought it up because when I consider all of the folks struggling to further their relationship with God, I always ask "what about Job."  This is why I hope it is a story, or metaphor, with a deeper meaning than what may be taken at face value.  I guess it would seem less "harsh" that way.

I have been reading through it again tonight after discussing the book today.  I noticed a few more things such as it was not just Job's kids being killed, but all of his servants as well.  There is no mention of their spiritual standing.  Also, Satan has control over the elements on earth in this story.  There are a multitude of implications if it were taken literally.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 6, 2011)

I suppose there are thousands of things to learn from Job.  Imagine how many minds have pondered it and guessed at all the possibilities and ramifications?

Tonight Job teaches me that even if God takes a step back from a situation, proper faith can impower a person to stand, even when their loved ones and friends are urging them not to!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2011)

"In all this misfortune Job committed no sin nor offered any insult to God Job 2,1.

One way of looking at Job ( the book) is that if you were to write it, how would you go about it? In other words put yourself in the shoes of the author and you need to know to some degree how narratives are put together by writers.

These sections, from the prespective of the person trying to write it, have given great comfort in "my" understanding of Job.

Chapter 1 is super charged, as the atomic particles of one atom of a Cape Buffalo heard, with the nature of the issues that will follow in the dialogues. I find that from reading experience the who and why of Job is given away in this very first chapter. I don't distinguish between Satan and Job. For me Job is his own devil...

Secondly,...Chapter 32,33,34,35... Elihu joins the discussion. Elihu id's that by trying to understand his situation Job has questioned if God is just? This is for me the height of the musical score if you wish in the book Job. 

Trois,...Chapter 38..." The from the heart of the tempest Yahweh gave Job his answer He said:...." God's answer will quiet the tempest of the story of Job.

Chapter 42..."I am the man who obscured your designs with my empty-headed words." Job42,3

And there you have it... a man who, " Yes", Satan said, "but Job is not God-fearing for nothing, is he? Have you not put a wall around him and his house and all his domain?"

A man who will question if God is Just as the wall around him is removed, which begs the question to what extent Job was God fearing...but Job never broke with God...and Job was restored...


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 7, 2011)

The book of Job is considered "poetic". That's why it is in the poetic section. The poetic section starts with Job and ends at the minor prophets. This is old teaching, so someone correct me on this if I'm wrong. Been a long time ago that I was taught this. Did it really happen? Did it really happen exactly as told? Was someone there trying to write down everything said between Job and his friends? I  Don't know.  Is their a central theme to gleen from whether it is literal or not? YES


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Tonight Job teaches me that even if God takes a step back from a situation, proper faith can impower a person to stand, even when their loved ones and friends are urging them not to!



Good thoughts.  Thanks Ronnie.



gordon 2 said:


> I find that from reading experience the who and why of Job is given away in this very first chapter. I don't distinguish between Satan and Job. For me Job is his own devil...



G2, I tend to side with your view.  This position only makes sense if we view Job as poetry, with a "moral" to teach.  If it is a literal historical account, there are many questions relevant to the nature of God and his view of man.  After reading the book again last night I am more convinced that it is an old style "parable," for lack of a better term.



1gr8bldr said:


> Did it really happen? Did it really happen exactly as told? Was someone there trying to write down everything said between Job and his friends?



These are the questions which lead me to believe it is not historical.  The conversations are so detailed, the "bet" seems out of character with the God of the NT, and, honestly, a God who created the universe would not need to get into such a contest to prove he is "allmighty."


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

For those who do believe it is an accurate historical account:

What implications do you see in the fact that, in Job, Satan controls the elements on Earth?  Does this change your views of natural disasters given that they can be caused by something other than God?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> For those who do believe it is an accurate historical account:
> 
> What implications do you see in the fact that, in Job, Satan controls the elements on Earth?  Does this change your views of natural disasters given that they can be caused by something other than God?





Just a heads up. There is no such thing as an accurate historical account, simply because things have to be edited either by taking out of an account or adding emphysis to  an account.

History, like the news, can never be totally accurate. Writing history is creative...as anyone writing it with professional standards will tell you.

Satan is a lier....he (it) controls noting...he is controled just like the elements control beasts. Satan did not take away anything from Job's life, it just suggested it did.... and that suggestion was not unlike tempting 
Eve that God was a pushover.

When Job said this, " May the day perish when I was born, and the night that told of a boy conceived." Satan like a pervert saw his opening. I can suggest someting like this in Job's mind. "Life can really suck and since God is life...well does God?"


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Satan is a lier....he (it) controls noting...he is controled just like the elements control beasts. Satan did not take away anything from Job's life, it just suggested it did....



Right, but if Job is taken literally, God steps back and lets Satan destroy many things and people.  Some of tools he (it) uses are men, Ch1:14-15, 17. But in Ch 1:15, 18-19 he (it) uses the "fire of God" and the wind (natural elements).  Later, in ch 2, Satan uses bacteria (leprosy).  In 2:7, it actually says satan "inflicted Job with painful sores."

So, if we take Job as a historical account, we must then assume Satan can use natural elements when allowed.  The implication is that the natural world around us can be used by Satan to harm us and our loved ones if God allows it.

EDITED TO ADD:

Also, in case anybody wants to chime in, Job 42 says he lived 140 years after the problems he faced.  This is in contradiction with Genesis 6:3, unless Job was pre-flood, which would support the metaphor claim.

So, what are the thoughts from the "historical account" folks?  I am not trying to debate here, I honestly would like to hear opinions on this subject.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 7, 2011)

Big D, this might help a little.

I was saved at 12, ran far away from God for many years. One of my excuses/reasons was how could a loving God ask a father (abraham) to sacrifice his son (isaac)? I thought that was very mean and cruel. That was a child's mind (mine) working without much meat or proper discipling.

As it turned out, Abraham didn't end up sacrificing Isaac, God ask Abraham to do that to test Abraham. And God promised Abraham that He (God) would provide Himself a lamb, which was of course Jesus.

Sometimes it just takes us forever to grasp something or even come to some sort of understanding about it.


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## M80 (Sep 7, 2011)

Job helps me to trust in the Lord more.  When Im down and discouraged and think everything is not going my way I can always think of Job and relieze how Blessed I am.


Think about Job this way, when God gave him all the blessing after losing all that he had, think of what kind of shouting fit he experianced.  

I believe God allows things to happen in our Life for our benefits,  God tested Abraham,  think about it.  God new exactly what the outcome was going to be with Issac, he knew Abraham would sacrifice Issac so why did he let him get as far as almost killing his only son.  Think about the shouting fit and praising the lord when he saw that ram hung up in the vines,  the lord already knows the outcome our storms we go through and knows how we will handle them, but he allows us to go through the storms for our benefit,  we learn to trust him more,

If we didn't have no storms, we wouldn't seek after the Lord as hard as we do.

The book of Job is said to be the oldest book of the Bible by what bible scholars say,  but no evidence of that.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 7, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> Job helps me to trust in the Lord more.  When Im down and discouraged and think everything is not going my way I can always think of Job and relieze how Blessed I am.



Me, too.

I have said to God when things have gotten tougher than 'I' believe they should be, I'll say please God, have mercy, my name ain't Job.

And I have said in a joking manner, that I'm broker than Job's turkey.  lol

My daughter and I both will pass someone that really has it tough, especially physically, and we'll look at one another and say, 'did you get your healing'....or 'really now, are you blessed'. 

Maybe as long as things don't get as bad for us as they did for Job, we'll make it thru this life.

And yes God knew He could trust Abraham, really God enlightened Abraham on just how much he could trust God, and just how unselfish and loving an act is to give your son to die on the cross, something none of us could do, I doubt.


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

Thanks for your thoughts MW80, do you take the story literally?

I think by viewing it as a metaphor, or poetry, I am less apprehensive about the whole account, or find more meaning, than when I view it as a historical account.

I am sure he had a shouting fit, but he lost a lot of kids and servants along the way.  That alone keeps me "stuck."  Add in Satan directing the natural elements, and I get a whole mess going on in my head.


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

.....but, I do see where folks can derive hope from the story if they don't get "stuck" in the details....like I do


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 7, 2011)

Job was willing to give up his wealth,family and his health without sinning. BUT, Job was not willing to give up his integrity. He argued long with his companions, over and over. But Job was a righteous man, he did help widows and orphans also giving to the poor. Think how Jesus was just the opposite of Job. While he was innocent of every charge, he did not even defend himself yet Job could not let go of his integrity. Let me give a poor example; think of a girl so pretty that she never ever used makeup. She was so pretty that she never needed it. Job was a good man but had never realized his need for a savior. Chapter after chapter he argues with his friends. But God loved Job to much. So he handed him over to Satan. Through this turn of events Job saw his spiritual pride and realized that before God, his righteousness was "as filthy rags". God rebukes those he loves for their own good, He is always at work. This is where we get the NT example of "handing someone over to Satan" [1 Tim 1:20] We are saved only by God's mercy and grace. Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!


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## mtnwoman (Sep 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> .....but, I do see where folks can derive hope from the story if they don't get "stuck" in the details....like I do



God's working hard on ya! There is some reason this is weighing heavy on your spirit.


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Job was willing to give up his wealth,family and his health without sinning. BUT, Job was not willing to give up his integrity. He argued long with his companions, over and over. But Job was a righteous man, he did help widows and orphans also giving to the poor. Think how Jesus was just the opposite of Job. While he was innocent of every charge, he did not even defend himself yet Job could not let go of his integrity. Let me give a poor example; think of a girl so pretty that she never ever used makeup. She was so pretty that she never needed it. Job was a good man but had never realized his need for a savior. Chapter after chapter he argues with his friends. But God loved Job to much. So he handed him over to Satan. Through this turn of events Job saw his spiritual pride and realized that before God, his righteousness was "as filthy rags". God rebukes those he loves for their own good, He is always at work. This is where we get the NT example of "handing someone over to Satan" [1 Tim 1:20] We are saved only by God's mercy and grace. Oh the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!



Good stuff man. So, in thinking through what you are saying, are you going "big picture metaphor," with Job being "everyman" and satan playing the sin nature and how those roles, the self and the sin nature, play out without the help of God?


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Good stuff man. So, in thinking through what you are saying, are you going "big picture metaphor," with Job being "everyman" and satan playing the sin nature and how those roles, the self and the sin nature, play out without the help of God?


Same thing with Paul, the Damascus road experience. He was a good man, had quite the religious resume. Studied under Gamiel, circumcised on the 8 day, of the people of Israel, tribe of Benjamin, Hebrew of Hebrews A Pharisee in regards to keeping the law, as for zeal, persecuting the church, legalistic righteous, faultless. But whatever was to his profit, he now considers it rubbish. All this religious stuff is mans work for mans glory.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 7, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Good stuff man. So, in thinking through what you are saying, are you going "big picture metaphor," with Job being "everyman" and satan playing the sin nature and how those roles, the self and the sin nature, play out without the help of God?


 I think it was you who mentioned the prodical son; Bingo The prodical son is a picture of ourselves. When we first start to serve or creator, we unknownly do it for our own honor. If you help someone, you find yourself telling someone. People try to make a name for themselves through works. After awhile, God begins to show us our pride and who's honor it is that we are really working for. So, what is our inheritence from God. His Godly nature or goodness. So the prodical asked for his inheritence and went and spent it on his own honor. God showed him how he dishonored him. He repented and realized he was not worthy to be called a son. Through these events he returned as a new man.


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> But whatever was to his profit, he now considers it rubbish. All this religious stuff is mans work for mans glory.



....I couldn't agree more.

I think the angle you are looking at it is similar to what G2 was saying also, where Job was Israel, or anybody else, and Satan was the "sin nature."  How that can be destructive if we step away from God.  I might be wrong, but that's how I am reading y'alls comments.

 I can't tell you how many conversations I have had on this subject which never got beyond the metaphor concept because just the thought was "against God."


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## JB0704 (Sep 7, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think it was you who mentioned the prodical son;



I did. It was an effort to demonstrate that not all of the stories in the Bible are regarded as actual events. I had not thought about further similarities until now, interesting stuff, for sure......


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2011)

We are all boxers. Everyone has the ability to be a boxer, if they train. Boxing is a sport. You are only allowed to go so far, because of the rules.

If we let our predatory instincts get the better of us we can train our whole beings, our whole societies, our whole worlds, to hate, and hate is not a sport-- it has no rules.

Satan does not have rules and when he does they are lies.

Those lies visited Job, just like they visit us. If we have given our hearts to Christ and to God they ( evil's lies) cannot bite to poison us to spiritual death...it hurts and sometimes it hurts alot... sometimes we become ugly with boils for those lies,but in Christ we will not die.


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## M80 (Sep 8, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Same thing with Paul, the Damascus road experience. He was a good man, had quite the religious resume. Studied under Gamiel, circumcised on the 8 day, of the people of Israel, tribe of Benjamin, Hebrew of Hebrews A Pharisee in regards to keeping the law, as for zeal, persecuting the church, legalistic righteous, faultless. But whatever was to his profit, he now considers it rubbish. All this religious stuff is mans work for mans glory.



I believe Job was a real man and this really did happen.  I do not look at it as a parable. If it was God would have told us.  

I don't really see where you are coming from with the pride of Job.  The bible says he was a perfect man.  I believe God allowed this to happen for others purpose.  I know of young men and women in there early 20's that where very good christian people, very spiritual, I wished I was more like them and watch them suffer and die from cancer.  Why, I just can't explain it, but God has his purpose , ROMANS 8.28.   but through watching there lifes I've learned things and others have also.  

I believe God allowed this to happen to him so it could help others, he knew he was able to get through it.  Look at it, we are sitting around getting blessed and learning from other people, if God didn't allow it to happen to Job, we wouldn't be doing what we are.  Maybe someone will grow in the Lord through this and maybe get saved.

Paul was not a good man, he persucuted the christians and even killed them, he was there when Steven was stoned.  God saved Paul and changed his life, people knew who he was, and if Paul was saved and his live changed, God knew how big of a influence he would have on Jews and Gentiles, even the Romans


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## JB0704 (Sep 9, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> I believe Job was a real man and this really did happen.  I do not look at it as a parable. If it was God would have told us.



Thanks for your thoughts.  Since you believe it was a true story, could you follow up a few questions:

1. Job lived 140 after his problems, but in Genesis, God limits man to 120 years.  Do you then believe Job was pre-flood?

2. In Job, satan controls earth's elements.  Do you believe natural disasters could be caused by satan?

3. Many servants were also killed and no mention is made of their spiritual state. 

These items, as well as the fact that the story is written like a play (proloque, epilogue, poetic structure) and the detailed nature of the conversations have me convinced this is didactic poetry.  God proves he likes to tell things so we can understand them through Jesus' parables.  I have no reason to believe Job is any different.  For me, the story only makes sense if it is a "parable" about how a sin can destroy us, and we cannot save ourselves, but through God we can be restored.  Otherwise, we get into contradictions in fact (140 yrs), character (God making a bet with satan), and nature (satan using natural elements).


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## M80 (Sep 9, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.  Since you believe it was a true story, could you follow up a few questions:
> 
> 1. Job lived 140 after his problems, but in Genesis, God limits man to 120 years.  Do you then believe Job was pre-flood?
> 
> ...



1.  I don't know, the bible dosn't tell us.

2.  No, everything that happens is from God or he allows Satan to do it.

3.  There is alot of people killed through out the bible that dosn't tell there spiritual state.

I believe Job was a real man.  READ EZEKIEL 14:14-20 AND JAMES 5:11


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## JB0704 (Sep 9, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> 1.  I don't know, the bible dosn't tell us.
> 
> 2.  No, everything that happens is from God or he allows Satan to do it.
> 
> ...



I don't understand why folks think pressing caps lock adds credence to their point.  

1. If it was pre-flood, then all of those conversations would have had to been passed through multiple generations via word-of-mouth for thousands of years.

2. Whether God allows satan to do it or not, satan does it.  I don't see how that is a "work-around."  Does this mean tsunamis can be from satan?

3. So then God let folks be killed just to win a wager with satan?

Thank you for giving your thoughts on this.  I was hoping somebody would clarify that position.  I do not agree with it, but I don't think it is a "hill to die for," either.  Job being referenced later could be like us referencing a line from "Cool hand Luke."  We all know what "shaking the bush boss" means.  But he was a fictional character.

Would it change the nature of scripture if it was not a real story?


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## M80 (Sep 10, 2011)

Tsaumis are not from satan, god allows them to happen, all natural disasters, nothing happens unless god allows it.

The bible says nothing about a bet or a wager so i don't know why you are calling it a bet.


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## JB0704 (Sep 10, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> Tsaumis are not from satan, god allows them to happen, all natural disasters, nothing happens unless god allows it.



If you hand your keys to your kid, and he drives the car, who do you say is driving the car?  Whether you allow your kid to drive the car or not is irrelevant.  The kid is the one driving.

With that in mind, if Job is real, Satan can cause natural disasters.



mwilliams80 said:


> The bible says nothing about a bet or a wager so i don't know why you are calling it a bet.



Then what would you call what was going on between God and Satan? I will use whatever term you come up with.  

Why do you think it would be necessary for a God who created the universe to allow such unnecessary destruction in order to "win" when he already knew he would?  It makes no sense unless it is a metaphor.

In your mind, would it diminish the validity of the Bible if we were to discover that Job was fictional?  For me, it increases the validity.


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## M80 (Sep 11, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> If you hand your keys to your kid, and he drives the car, who do you say is driving the car?  Whether you allow your kid to drive the car or not is irrelevant.  The kid is the one driving.
> 
> With that in mind, if Job is real, Satan can cause natural disasters.
> 
> ...



Satan can cause disastors, but only if God allows, if he tried without the permission of God, God would stop it.  God allows me to breathe, we think we are the ones doing the breatheing but it is God allowing us to breathe.

About the kid driving he might be but the father has total control of him.  Matt.19.26

How do you call it a bet if God already knows the answer.
God knew, but satan didn't.

I don't doubt the bible in no way.  We will never no until we get to heaven whether Job is real or not, but for me I take the bible literal and believe Job is a real man, considering Ezekial 14,14-20.


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## JB0704 (Sep 11, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> How do you call it a bet if God already knows the answer.
> God knew, but satan didn't.



I just used the term for lack of a better one.  I indicated I would use anything more appropriate you may come up with.  



mwilliams80 said:


> I don't doubt the bible in no way.  We will never no until we get to heaven whether Job is real or not, but for me I take the bible literal and believe Job is a real man, considering Ezekial 14,14-20.




I read the passage, and you can refer to my thoughts on "Cool hand Luke" a few posts back for my perspective on that.  I am not trying to change your position on this, I was just seeking clarity.

I have struggled with Job for many years.  I feel as if I had a "break through" here.  It works for me.  I don't believe it constitutes doubt.  Thanks for your responses.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Then what would you call what was going on between God and Satan? I will use whatever term you come up with.
> 
> Why do you think it would be necessary for a God who created the universe to allow such unnecessary destruction in order to "win" when he already knew he would?  It makes no sense unless it is a metaphor.
> 
> In your mind, would it diminish the validity of the Bible if we were to discover that Job was fictional?  For me, it increases the validity.



Truthfully, it annoyed me that you said that Job was based on a "bet". I think it is because it implies that there was some calculable  risk involved, as if God really wasn't certain of Job's character, that He said one thing but had a measure of doubt.
Yes, I realize it is semantics, but the distinguishing difference for me is that there was no doubt on God's part..... no element of possibly losing, no wager, no gambling.

Let me summarize, how I see the basic outline.

1. Satan shows up uninvited, but is allowed to stay (temporarily) by God. 

2. God brags on one of His own. 

3. Satan believes he can cause Job to fall if God will remove divine protection.

4. God offers to prove that Job is indeed the man God says he is. 

Since God cannot lose, (after all, He is God) there remains the question of "Why does He agree to allowing Job to be tested?"

The answer is not obvious till we get to the last  eleven chapters. Though Job may well be the greatest servant of God, the shining example of the best man has to offer, there are some things Job needs (as do we) to understand about the character of God and true nature of being in proper relationship with God. Job felt as though some portion of his righteous life was the result of his own doing, that he had actually done something to deserve God's favor and blessing. God sought to teach Job through the circumstances of the first thirty-one chapters.  Elihu takes the next six chapters to point out how wrong-headed Job and his other three friends have been and finally, God speaks in the last five, to confirm Elihu's view, to instruct Job, and to reward him for his faithfulness. 

Besting Satan never was at issue. God reigns! It's a given.

The issue is having the proper regard for God, understanding who He is and what our position is to be in a relationship with Him.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

GT, I think the nature of these forums is that we are going to annoy each other from time to time.  It is what it is.  

I disagree with your conclusion based on the previous posts involved in this thread.  I don't see the story as necessary or uplifting or enlightening if it all is about "who is really in control."  Genesis 1 establishes that.  I can't see how the story reflects well on God if he allows satan to wreak such havoc just to prove he is in charge.  It makes no sense to me.

Then, we get into the whole concept of Satan controlling the elements, which happens in Job whether God allows it or not. Also, Job outlived God's mandated time for a human life. There are too many implications in the book which change the entire perspective of nature and God if it is taken literally.

If the answer to everything we ask is "We cannot comprehend God," then we really have no answers, and, it is contradictory to God revealing himself through the Son, creation, and the word.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm reminded of a few of the first basic questions from most catechisms....


Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
A. Man's chief end is to glorify God, and to enjoy him forever.

Here is the crux of Job all summed up in the very first question.  If we look at the relationship between us and our creator and assume that the chief end of man is to be comfortable or even to understand "why", then the story of Job makes no sense and, quite honestly, might reflect as JB stated on God.

But our chief end is simply "to glorify God and enjoy him forever". 

Job...in all of his suffering...in all of his pain...in all of his torture and lack of understanding "why"...glorified God.  He proved that he was righteous and that God did know his character.  He proved to Satan that a man of God will not be shaken.  He proved that one who understands that our chief end is to Glorify the creator will endure any suffering that he will throw at us so that, in the end, we can enjoy Him forever.

This is not a story about what happened to Job while he lived on earth.  It is a story about the created glorifying the Creator and enjoying him for eternity.  

As GT pointed out....God knew what would happen.  Satan, on the other hand, did not.  It must have been a terrible blow the day he realized that he had done his absolute worst and, in the end, God was glorified.

It is not about being comfortable.  It is not about whether we or our children or anybody else lives or dies and how that makes us feel.  I'm not minimizing how that would feel.  It would be aweful.  But we are not designed nor called to glorify God only when things are going well.

Show me a man or woman who can look you in the eye when their body is ravaged with cancer and they are dieing a slow painful death.  Show me a man or woman who can go through that and look you in the eye with joy in their face and say "God is good"...

...and I will show you a man or woman who is LIVING the first question of most catechisms.

That is what Job is about.  A man who glorified God...and is enjoying him forever.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That is what Job is about.  A man who glorified God...and is enjoying him forever.



According to you.  And, if you have found peace and comfort in that perspective, then it is as it should be.

You know I had a period of time where I tried not to believe.  Once I came to a logical conclusion of God's existence, and a comfortable peace with Chritianity, my biggest fear was Job.  If a non-believer looked at Job through your lens, they would not see the positive, it would be a warning against all who might believe because their human perspective is all they have.

But, if it is a metaphor about how none of us can make it without God, not through friends, family, or religion, then the appeal is universal.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

> According to you.



Do you have a macro built that just adds this to every post you make?


We CAN'T make it through without God ultimately.  But my point is that our chief end is not to be comfortable.  If God chooses to take our children and our possessions...he is God.

Funny thing about the story of Job....God does not interfere...Job did not make it through because God somehow helped him.  Your universal appeal goes out the door there.  God did not help him.  God did not intervene on his behalf.  He simply watched a righteous man who knew what his purpose was suffer.  

How did Job "make it" with God in this story?  God did not participate.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Do you have a macro built that just adds this to every post you make?



Man, the pot must be stirred from time to time 




Huntinfool said:


> Funny thing about the story of Job....God does not interfere...Job did not make it through because God somehow helped him.  Your universal appeal goes out the door there.  God did not help him.  God did not intervene on his behalf.  He simply watched a righteous man who knew what his purpose was suffer.
> 
> How did Job "make it" with God in this story?  God did not participate.



You missed the epilogue.  Chapter 42, Job is restored by God.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

...not until after he "made it through".  I didn't miss it.


God did not intervene until after Job had proven his point...until after he "made it through".  He did not participate in the story until that point.  The very nature of an epilogue is "after the story".


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ...not until after he "made it through".  I didn't miss it.
> 
> 
> God did not intervene until after Job had proven his point...until after he "made it through".  He did not participate in the story until that point.  The very nature of an epilogue is "after the story".



Okay, but "Saving Private Ryan" isn't the same without the epilogue.  You don't understand the sacrifice till you see the older private Ryan's family at the cemetary.

The epilogue, in Job, is where God restores the man after the ravages of sin.   We are not going to agree here. 

I get that you must be right, and everybody else must agree with you before you can let something go, so, in that spirit..........

I will give you the last word.....


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## Jeffriesw (Sep 12, 2011)

Good post Huntin!





Huntinfool said:


> I'm reminded of a few of the first basic questions from most catechisms....
> 
> 
> Q. 1. What is the chief end of man?
> ...


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

> The epilogue, in Job, is where God restores the man after the ravages of sin.



Did Job sin and, so, cause what happened?




> I get that you must be right, and everybody else must agree with you before you can let something go....



Since I post this all the time, I'll post it for myself.  My fav preacher says this all the time.

"If ya cain't say AMEN, ya oughta say OUCH"

So, I'll just give you both....Amen, and Ouch!



You were hoping to butt heads with me yesterday.  What happened?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Do you have a macro built that just adds this to every post you make?
> 
> 
> We CAN'T make it through without God ultimately.  But my point is that our chief end is not to be comfortable.  If God chooses to take our children and our possessions...he is God.
> ...



God did not help Job true his friends and Elihu? I think Job was helped by God just as many are helped by God for participating on this forum. God has ministered to me enormously thru my brothers and sisters on this forum.


 He simply watched a righteous man who knew what his purpose was suffer.  

Really? Then the ministry of Jesus was for nothing, since its purpose was in part to remove spiritual and physical suffering from the afflicted?

I don't what to dance on pins here, but I really don't understand how you can make statements as the above, which seem to me to rub out...God's grace and justice?

But then I have and will be wrong in my understandings? However I'd like to understand your point a little more. Can you expand a little more....?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

He turned Job over to Satan to do what he pleased (with the exception of death).

Perhaps my punctuation was poor.  

Throughout the story, he "watched a righteous man, who knew what his purpose was, suffer".  Does that make better sense with the commas?

He watched Job....who knew that his sole purpose was to glorify God....suffer.

He did not interfere with what Satan was doing to him.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Did Job sin and, so, cause what happened?



I tried to give you the last word here, but if you insist......

Satan is the sin nature.  Job is "everyman."  In the story, Job does not sin, but since it is fiction, it draws the picture of what sin can do in our lives without God, and how friends, family, and religion can't save us.

Job suffers Satan's harm because he is righteous.  His servants are killed by Satan because Job is righteous.  His kids are killed by Satan because Job is righteous.  Satan uses Earth's elements to inflict harm and kill people, and God allows it.  Job lives longer than God's imposed time limitations.  God allows all of this to happen to prove a point to Satan......

If you want to continue believing all of that is true, then do so. Rock on, brother.

I have found peace with what was discussed in the previous posts on this thread.  I can't square the God in Job in with the one who sent Jesus.

You and I are going to need to let this one go, as we will never see eye to eye.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You were hoping to butt heads with me yesterday.  What happened?



You were a little late to this party.......


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

Ah....it's fiction.  I forgot.


Why did you bring up the subject of whether it's fiction or not if you're not even a little bit open to being convinced that it's true?


BTW....can you explain this a little more?  I don't follow.  Is the God in Job not the same one that sent Jesus regardless of whether it's metaphor or true story?



> I can't square the God in Job in with the one who sent Jesus.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Ah....it's fiction.  I forgot.
> 
> 
> Why did you bring up the subject of whether it's fiction or not if you're not even a little bit open to being convinced that it's true?



Somewhere in the middle of this thread, a lightbulb came on for me (I actually told my wife all about it too).  I mentioned in the very beginning that Job caused me all kinds of heartache, because it made no sense.  The only angle I had ever looked at it from was the one you are taking, and it just doesn't work.  

But, if you read through the thread, there are many ways to view Job, and some of them make more sense than others.  I don't have it figured out, but I do have a little more peace.




Huntinfool said:


> BTW....can you explain this a little more?  I don't follow.  Is the God in Job not the same one that sent Jesus regardless of whether it's metaphor or true story?



There is a total lack of compassion for the human condition in the book of Job.  Jesus was all compassion for the human condition, he understood needs and sufferring.  Which is why I think Job is a metaphor.  I don't believe God and Satan literally had a conversation and decided to let Satan destroy so many people just to prove he (God) was powerful.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't what to dance on pins here, but I really don't understand how you can make statements as the above, which seem to me to rub out...God's grace and justice?



A lot of Christians allow a "black and white" perspective to rub out God's grace and justice.  This has a lot to do with why I feel the way I do about a lot of things......


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

> I don't believe God and Satan literally had a conversation and decided to let Satan destroy so many people just to prove he (God) was powerful.



But it's, at least, a representation of God and, if it's in the Bible....then it must at least be consistent with his character....no?


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But it's, at least, a representation of God and, if it's in the Bible....then it must at least be consistent with his character....no?



I should have used a different term than character, because there are many elements to the story.....

Consistent with his character in that he is in control, yes.  Consistent in that he would let Satan do all that harm to prove he (God) is powerful, no.  I don't think he gives control of the elements to Satan.  I don't think he is callous enough to believe a new set of kids is better than the old set of kids. 

The consistency is one of his nature (in control), than action (the harm to prove a point).  If God did allow all that sufferring to prove he is in control, then it says a lot about how he feels towards humans.  And that is inconsistent with the love evidenced by the sacrifice of Jesus.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But it's, at least, a representation of God and, if it's in the Bible....



Let me ask you a question then, and tell me if this is what you believe, since you believe Job is an actual historical account:

God so loved the world that he gave is only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.  But, if Satan decides to come to heaven one day and challenge God, God will allow Satan to use the Earth's elements to kill all of your kids, turn your wife against you, give you leprosy, and steal your life savings just to prove he is in control.

Do you see what I mean by inconsistency?


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I tried to give you the last word here, but if you insist......
> 
> Satan is the sin nature.  Job is "everyman."  In the story, Job does not sin, but since it is fiction, it draws the picture of what sin can do in our lives without God, and how friends, family, and religion can't save us.
> 
> ...




You know both of you might be saying the same thing...and I got a feeling you are.... and this might seem strange....but sometimes we look an object from different X's and they apear different but are not really.

You two guys are going faster at this than the New York Stock Exchange ticker....

Now if you two could combine to do some ministirial work, ...Billy Graham move over!


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Now if you two could combine to do some ministirial work, ...Billy Graham move over!



....G2, thanks for the thought, but nobody would want me in the ministry....I drink beer and have been divorced


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

This part is in the Bible...



> God so loved the world that he gave is only son that whoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.



This part is not....



> But, if Satan decides to come to heaven one day and challenge God, God will allow Satan to use the Earth's elements to kill all of your kids, turn your wife against you, give you leprosy, and steal your life savings just to prove he is in control.



That second part was written entirely from a human perspective...as you pointed out, that is all un-believers have for perspective.  So I can see how somebody might read that in Job.  The first part relates to eternal salvation.  The second relates to one's perception of "happiness" here on earth.  

Never known anybody who experienced a tragedy in their life, had their husband or wife leave them and then fall ill to cancer or worse?  I've known a bunch of them in my life. 


Since God didn't allow Satan to attack Job just to "prove he is powerful", I don't think there is a character issue in there.

Also, I wanted to ask you about this.  If Job is only metaphor, why is he mentioned in other books of the Bible (Both OT and NT) in the same breath as others we accept as real and why is he referenced as a man we should strive to live as?

even if these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness, declares the Lord GOD.
(Ezekiel 14:14 ESV)

	even if Noah, Daniel, and Job were in it, as I live, declares the Lord GOD, they would deliver neither son nor daughter. They would deliver but their own lives by their righteousness.
(Ezekiel 14:20 ESV)

	Behold, we consider those blessed who remained steadfast. You have heard of the steadfastness of Job, and you have seen the purpose of the Lord, how the Lord is compassionate and merciful.
(James 5:11 ESV)


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

Well.....I haven't been divorced (though I've come really dang close!).  But maybe we could start a brew ministry. I do love me some 420.





Gordo....believe me...we are not saying the same thing.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> GT, I think the nature of these forums is that we are going to annoy each other from time to time.  It is what it is.
> 
> I disagree with your conclusion based on the previous posts involved in this thread.  I don't see the story as necessary or uplifting or enlightening if it all is about "who is really in control."  Genesis 1 establishes that.  I can't see how the story reflects well on God if he allows satan to wreak such havoc just to prove he is in charge.  It makes no sense to me.
> 
> ...



Please understand, I am not annoyed with you. I just find the terminology ("bet", "wager") not very descriptive of the true nature of what is transpires in Job 1. God is not contending with Satan, but Satan is certainly seeking to contend against God. God is not trying to "prove he is in charge." The whole process is to correct a problem in Job's thinking. Like many of us, Job was starting to believe in his ability to do right and therefore earn honor and blessing. My friend, that is commerce, not grace. That is not humility, that is hubris. 

God is progressively revealing Himself to Job and to us. One cannot declare oneself undeserving of the travails he faces and in the same breath take credit for the good things he has encountered in life. Job had the idea that he didn't deserve the bad things he was experiencing, but that somehow he deserved the good things. The truth is that God's grace, unmerited favor, had been poured out upon Job. God wills that the rain falls upon the good folks and the bad folks. God is keenly interested in how each person responds to the things of life, the good and the bad. Job was developing an attitude about his fortunate situation, yet it doesn't become apparent until he loses that position.

"I've done right. I've dotted the "I's" and crossed the "T's". I do not deserve these tragic things and I don't know why! God owes me an explanation." And for thirty-eight chapters, God was silent. God does not owe anyone an explanation, but He works to bring about the best for those that love Him. One of the things about being human is that we really don't know what that is until we get to that point. Also, remember, Job was not an Israelite, not Hebrew, not a Jew. He was not a child of Abraham, was not a covenant participant. What he knew of God was limited and he was doing all he thought necessary to please God. God found it worth noting to Satan and doing what was necessary to bring Job closer. Through it all, Job never elevated family, health, or possessions above his  devotion to God.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That second part was written entirely from a human perspective...



It summarizes the story, if it is viewed as reality.  You can twist and turn all you want, but, if the story is real, that is an accurate summary.  The moral of the story, that which you have stated, is left to the reader, God doesn't spell it out.

And honestly, whatever the point is, he could have made it a lot more peacefully than what happened to Job.  



Huntinfool said:


> Since God didn't allow Satan to attack Job just to "prove he is powerful", I don't think there is a character issue in there.



Then why did God allow Satan to attack Job?



Huntinfool said:


> Also, I wanted to ask you about this.  If Job is only metaphor, why is he mentioned in other books of the Bible (Both OT and NT) in the same breath as others we accept as real and why is he referenced as a man we should strive to live as?



Please go back and read the entire thread.  These verses, and this thought, have been covered multiple times.

I read Beowulf in high school.  I had conversations about beowulf. I was taught lessons from beowulf.  That does not mean beowulf was a real character.

If you ask somebody to do something, and they say "shaking the bush, boss," does that mean "Cool Hand Luke" was a real story?


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

> Then why did God allow Satan to attack Job?




See GT's post above...it's a good one.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Like many of us, Job was starting to believe in his ability to do right and therefore earn honor and blessing. My friend, that is commerce, not grace. That is not humility, that is hubris.




Then we are getting closer in perception of the moral of the story, GT.  The only difference is that I think it can only be a metaphor, and you (I think) believe it is historical.


----------



## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

> I read Beowulf in high school. I had conversations about beowulf. I was taught lessons from beowulf. That does not mean beowulf was a real character.



But when you talk of interesting men, do you speak of George Washington and Beowulf in the same breath?

When speaking of literary figures, you typically don't intermingle them with real people from history in conversation.

I don't talk about how much I admire people like George W. Bush and G.I. Joe.


In any case, it's not terribly important.  I assumed you would blow it off.  I guess I was just curious about it.


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> See GT's post above...it's a good one.



Right, but only in a metaphorical sense.  The book calls Job righteous.  GT is claiming it is Job's perception of his own righteousness that brings on this contest.  Therefor, Job is not righteous.

See how you get in a loop if you take it as reality?


----------



## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> When speaking of literary figures, you typically don't intermingle them with real people from history in conversation.



I don't, no.  But I don't sacrifice goats either.  I don't think my tatoo is an abomination.  I don't keep scripture binded to my forehead.  I don't have multiple wives.  I don't stone adulterers. I do eat pork.  I do eat shrimp.......

.....I don't do a lot of things people would do if all of the OT was literal.  I do many things they wouldn't.  Two very different cultures.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 12, 2011)

It's been real JB.  I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Where you argument is flawed is that you have turned a righteous man into a sinner in order to make the story work, which is a contradiction of the story if it is factual.  You have overlooked the glaring contradiction of the man's age.  You have avoided the question all-together as to how a God who loves us so much that he would sacrifice his son for us would let all those things happen to all of those people.....let's not forget, the servants who were killed, and the adult offspring were all God's children.  If it is factual, then God allowed this to either: A. punish Job for his percieved righteousness, or B. Prove to Satan he (God) was in control.

All of these puzzling and perplexing turns you have to take are elliminated if you just step back and view the story as a metaphor.  Why else is it written as a poem?


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It's been real JB.  I hope you find whatever it is you're looking for.



Are you quitting the forum or the thread?


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> According to you.  And, if you have found peace and comfort in that perspective, then it is as it should be.
> 
> You know I had a period of time where I tried not to believe.  Once I came to a logical conclusion of God's existence, and a comfortable peace with Chritianity, my biggest fear was Job.  If a non-believer looked at Job through your lens, they would not see the positive, it would be a warning against all who might believe because their human perspective is all they have.
> 
> But, if it is a metaphor about how none of us can make it without God, not through friends, family, or religion, then the appeal is universal.



Why would it need to be just one way or the other? I take Job as historical fact. I see no justification for believing it is otherwise. I also understand that within Scripture there are often layers of meaning involving instruction to those studying the Word. God appears to enjoy having created the living Word in a way that often has different application for those who read it. That work is surely the Holy Spirit drawing us to those things we need at different times in our lives. It can and does address different people in different situations. I don't think it is a stretch for God to include many very personal lessons in a certain book, story, or passage of Scripture.


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## gtparts (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Right, but only in a metaphorical sense.  The book calls Job righteous.  GT is claiming it is Job's perception of his own righteousness that brings on this contest.  Therefor, Job is not righteous.
> 
> See how you get in a loop if you take it as reality?



There is a huge difference in righteousness and perfection and there is a considerable difference between what we might term "man's righteousness" and what God calls righteous.  

Check it out and let me know what you find.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....G2, thanks for the thought, but nobody would want me in the ministry....I drink beer and have been divorced



Well I tell you what. Teaching is a ministry. If you  can teach yourself, I think you have a gift. Now it does not mean you are going to preside over a congragation, but I am almost certain that people like Ronnie T would welcome teachers to his christian community... My church wants me to teach and I am divorced and I drink beer ( I don't get drunk however. LOL) And my church is RC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't get more conservative than that.

So the ministry is not just being a pastor or a priest as I am certain you know. I think if God has made you to ask questions and to earnestly try to find reasonalble answers, it might be because God what's you someday to help other people who have questions....

I went right up to my priest once and said, "So you what me to teach. I am divorced. Is that a problem for you?" (Beer is not a big issue here, so I did not bring it up.) He said it is not an issue with me." I was a bit surprised then. But now I know that God is grace.


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## pine nut (Sep 12, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Hey guys, I have been wanting to throw this out there to get your thoughts on it, so here goes.......I hope I can get some thoughtful and articulate responses.  Please don't use this as a thread to question faith.  I want to discuss the book and what positives may derived from the story.
> 
> The book of Job.  Of all the books of the OT, this one gives me the most, well, "pause."  After many years of wrestling with my faith, I came back.  However, reading the book of Job makes me wonder why anybody would want to be "sold out" in faith.  I don't see the story as having a happy ending, and it appears as if the man, and his family, sufferred just to prove a point.  My main areas of contention are these:
> 
> ...



I too suffered what you defined as "pause",when reading and thinking about the book of Job.  It had always "bothered" me and I had questions such as you have raised.   

One day, literally out of the blue, an acquaintance of mine who was a druggist in my town handed me the book titled "In the Eye of the Storm" , by Max Lucado.  He went on to explain that I should please read it and return it to him, as he kept a library of Christian books in his store and liked to loan them out.  I was stunned at the time and to this day have no idea why he did that, but he did it.  

It is a very good book, and I was moved after reading it to purchase a copy for my entire family.  It took twenty copies.  I was duly impressed by my reading of it, and believed everyone should read it, as the insights into the nature of God were eyeopening in many ways, and often pointed out to me simple things that though they were in the scriptures, I was not open to seeing them before.

Now as to your question:

I am not going to answer it but advise you to get a copy of Max's book and to read chapter 17, titled "He Speaks Through The Storm".  This six page chapter about Job answered me, so I do not need to question further.  Perhaps it might you as well.  Max Lucado, enables me to see God in ways I never thought about before.  I particularly felt blessed by chapter 26 as well.  It is not necessary to read the book from front to back.  One can begin anywhere, and I found it very peaceful to sleep after reading each chapter. It was as if I were safe in the arms of God.  Chapter 26 is titled "The Choice".  It was an eye opener as well.  God is not bound by time and neither by the laws of physics as we are.  When one realizes that alone it will help one to understand much of the bible.  

Trust me God would have no difficulty making anyone do whatever He wanted us to do, but he won't do that!  He wants to fellowship with us, but he will not force us.  We must come to Him and seek Him.  He does indeed stand at our door and knocks, but it is up to us to invite Him into our lives.  I believe you are an honest seeker, and I hope this might be of service to you.  God Bless!

Bill


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

pine nut said:


> "In the Eye of the Storm" , by Max Lucado.



Thanks for your thoughts PN, I have a growing list of books to read folks on here have recommended, and I intend to read them.  I will put this on my list.  It may be a while, I work full time, coach two sports, and am in my final semester of Grad school, but, I promise I will get to it, just might be in the spring.

But, I do appreciate your thoughts.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Well I tell you what. Teaching is a ministry. If you  can teach yourself, I think you have a gift. Now it does not mean you are going to preside over a congragation, but I am almost certain that people like Ronnie T would welcome teachers to his christian community... My church wants me to teach and I am divorced and I drink beer ( I don't get drunk however. LOL) And my church is RC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Can't get more conservative than that.



I don't get drunk either, my current wife put an end to that nonsense.

Thanks for your thoughts G2.  I was recently asked to help volunteer with a faith based organization, then turned away because I would not sign an oath to not drink.  True story.

It's one of those things, when you have lived a life less than ideal, the people who should have the most grace are the ones who have the least.  So I try not to put myself out there.


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## JB0704 (Sep 12, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Why would it need to be just one way or the other? I take Job as historical fact. I see no justification for believing it is otherwise. I also understand that within Scripture there are often layers of meaning involving instruction to those studying the Word. God appears to enjoy having created the living Word in a way that often has different application for those who read it. That work is surely the Holy Spirit drawing us to those things we need at different times in our lives. It can and does address different people in different situations. I don't think it is a stretch for God to include many very personal lessons in a certain book, story, or passage of Scripture.



GT, I appreciate the way you have approached this.  The reason I believe it must be a metaphor is to maintain the integrity of the message.  I see things which do not "line up."  So, in order for them to fit into a truthful message, I must look at it from outside the box.

I also agree that God seems to layer messages within messages.  And that might be the case here.  My favorite story (which I bring up about once a week), the adulteress woman, has about five different messages that I can see right now, and each is pertinent to people from all sides of the "sin" equation.

All I can say for sure right now is that everybody on here, even HF (if he is still reading), has given me plenty to ponder, and I appreciate it.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 12, 2011)

Re:  "In the Eye of the Storm" , by Max Lucado.

When you get around to reading it you'll stay up late that night.
It's one of those kinda books.


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## gtparts (Sep 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't get drunk either, my current wife put an end to that nonsense.
> 
> Thanks for your thoughts G2.  I was recently asked to help volunteer with a faith based organization, then turned away because I would not sign an oath to not drink.  True story.
> 
> It's one of those things, when you have lived a life less than ideal, the people who should have the most grace are the ones who have the least.  So I try not to put myself out there.



You can hardly blame them for trying to protect the reputation and standards of their organization. I guess they take seriously the idea of being above reproach.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm with you GT.  


Many on the outside who see a worker in a Christian organization drinking will see hypocrisy...even if it's not there.

So many organizations ask those who want to serve to refrain while they are in service.  It's not a judgement...it's a request for the sake of the ministry.

My wife is in leadership in one of those groups this year.  I have a tough time with it because I want her to be able to have a glass of wine if she wants to (actually, they simply ask that she not be a social drinker).  But she has chosen to sign the form because she feels strongly that this organization is doing great work for the kingdom and she's willing to put her desires aside for a period of time for the opportunity to serve in that capacity.  I admire her greatly for that attitude.

She could very easily have running away like the wee little pig screaming "judgmental! judgemental! judgemental!".  I'm sure some do.  She sees it as submission to authority for the sake of participation in a powerful ministry.


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2011)

we'll see what powerful ministry is...


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

Israel...as usual....I don't follow.  Expound for me?


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## gtparts (Sep 13, 2011)

I believe all sincere ministry of the Gospel is powerful...... being empowered by God. Now, it may look different, such as medical missions, or reading to "at risk" children after school in your community. Each of the redeemed is created and nurtured by God for unique service in Jesus' name and for His glory.

Since everyone has a specific, individual plan from God for their lives, it remains to find out what it is and get busy.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

> You can hardly blame them for trying to protect the reputation and standards of their organization. I guess they take seriously the idea of being above reproach.



You can't be serious......

Jesus made wine at a wedding, first miracle, right there. I don't see how having a beer is being below reproach.  If they had asked about getting drunk, then they have a point. Being above reproach implies a lot more than sex and beer.  Nobody is above reproach.

I am sure God is pleased every time a person gets hurt needlessly in his name..


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Since everyone has a specific, individual plan from God for their lives, it remains to find out what it is and get busy.



....unless you drink beer.  Because other sins can be excused, but that one puts you below reproach, and God apparently doesn't want the drinkers of the beer.....

......Maybe I need a "Scarlett B" to go with my "Scarlett D," that way, every God fearing Christian would know who the "real sinner" is.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

If you're a fan of Monty Python, then you'll appreciate this....

"Help Help I'm being repressed!!  You saw it, didn't you?  You saw him repressing me!"

Why does being "judged" seemingly cloud everything you post?  

What GT was saying is that they take seriously the perception of being above reproach.  It's the same thing I posted.  Whether drinking is right or wrong, sin or not a sin....they don't want the perception of hypocrisy in the organization.  So they ask you to refrain.  End of story.  It's not a judgement on your eternal destination.  It's a request for the good of the work they are doing and nothing more (in most cases...I'll give you that there are probably some that consider you the worst kind of sinner imaginable if you have a beer...but they are the exception).

If you choose not to comply, there are lots of other places that you can serve that won't put such a heavy weight of "condemnation" on you.  They won't make you wear that Scarlet B.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Why does being "judged" seemingly cloud everything you post?



Because it is what Christians do best.  They create rules based on what they see as "implicit," claim the rules are God's mandates, then enforce those rules to the detriment of others.  In the end, God is hurt by the rules the faith is hurt by the rules, and nobody is helped.   Folks get blinded by religion.  



Huntinfool said:


> What GT was saying is that they take seriously the perception of being above reproach.



No. If they did, if you did, if he did, then it would be recognized that nobody is really above reproach.  Elliminating a person who drinks beer only elliminates a person who drinks beer.  It does nothing to further the gospel.

Any organization is welcome to make whatever "rules" they want.  And I am welcome to openly call those rules ignorant.  

You forget that I was raised in a typical Baptist environment.  I know what is implied by "above reproach."  It is usually in reference to sex and beer.  Folks forget the multitude of other, more damaging, actions people take in the name of God.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

HF, I am only repressed if I submit myself to repression.....think about it.....

I just don't like religion.  It hurts people.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

> Because it is what Christians do best.




But....you're a Christian....right?

Read your post...see anything ironic in it...I mean being that the whole post is about how judgemental Christians are?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

> HF, I am only repressed if I submit myself to repression.....think about it.....
> 
> I just don't like religion. It hurts people.



I was joking man...it's Monty Python.

I just think that everytime I read one of your posts I can hear that little man screaming "help help!  I'm being repressed!"

It's like the whole world is against you and especially Christians who are your brothers and sisters in Christ.  You have this special disdain for the ones you're going to be spending eternity with.  It's just sad to me.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But....you're a Christian....right?
> 
> Read your post...see anything ironic in it...I mean being that the whole post is about how judgemental Christians are?



I would only see irony if I participated in the actions you call ironic.

You say it yourself that you are called to judge.  I don't make that claim, I just raise a flag when I see people being hurt in the name of Jesus.  

If a person thinks it is a sin not to drink beer, then he should not drink beer.  But to impose that standard, with shaky biblical justification, on others is what I am talking about.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If you're a fan of Monty Python, then you'll appreciate this....
> 
> "Help Help I'm being repressed!!  You saw it, didn't you?  You saw him repressing me!"



"Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.  Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."




Sorry.  Couldn't resist.  Y'all get back to the serious talk now.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It's like the whole world is against you and especially Christians who are your brothers and sisters in Christ.  You have this special disdain for the ones you're going to be spending eternity with.  It's just sad to me.



 I don't think many Christians would want to spend eternity with me either.  I pray over beer.  I have had Bible studies where every person in the room had a beer with their BBQ.  I have gay friends.  I have a tatoo.  I have been divorced.

Maybe God will have corner for us "liberal" Christians so the sanctified won't be soiled by our presence.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

I have actually never seen the movie......I don't know why.  LEt's bring up some quotes from "Blazing Saddles,"  then I can join in the fun.....


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## centerpin fan (Sep 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I pray over beer.  I have had Bible studies where every person in the room had a beer with their BBQ.  I have gay friends.  I have a tatoo.  I have been divorced.



That's cool.  As long as you don't read from the NIV, I don't see the problem.

Sorry again.  HF put me in a silly mood.


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> That's cool.  As long as you don't read from the NIV, I don't see the problem.
> 
> Sorry again.  HF put me in a silly mood.



Funny stuff, I hope to tell y'all about that study group one day.  It was amazing.  And I don't think anybody really cared which version folks brought, or if they brought a Bible at all.  It was all about community and fellowship.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Funny stuff, I hope to tell y'all about that study group one day.  It was amazing.  And I don't think anybody really cared which version folks brought, or if they brought a Bible at all.  It was all about community and fellowship.



Ok I am assuming that the amazing in a study group for you is not to be found in the greater "study group" called "religion" but in a more informal community and fellowship group.

I was told once by a priest that if it was not for religion there would be no "bible study groups". I think he had a point.

However, many christians in our generations have issues with religion. Religion can be a seat that puffs up injustice and everyone knows it. It can be a tempest spiritually.

But those very religions, if they formed their young correctly instead of eating them, formed and informed them, baptized them, then you and I know justice enough to empathize with all mankind, friend and foe, with all their great pains and joys.

For my part I would like to say to you I have rarely found people who see from the perpective of Christ's Grace as you do.

 People like you tend to see even just a little bit of the "law" and recoil. I really don't have an answer. All I can say is that in Christ don't get off your bicycle...and know that in Christ others walk in the garden alone. And maybe it was meant to be. And maybe not.

Formula 1 where are you?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

> "Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a mandate of the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony."



...just because some watery tart lobbed a sword at you...


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

Thanks G2.  I appreciate what you have to say.  As far as religion goes, well, if a man goes to church and does what he believes brings him closer to his creator, then that is what he should do.

You are accurate in that I recoil at the law.  I guess my current perspective is that religion used the law to crucify Jesus.  I can't think of any greater villain (aside from Satan) in the Bible than those who convinced Pilot to execute Jesus in the name of God's work (he was accused of blasphemy and breaking the law).  So, if we look at it from an "outside perspective," Jesus was killed (temporarily) by religion.  

That's just kind-of my current thoughts on the subject, like all of them, I am still thinking through things.....


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ...just because some watery tart lobbed a sword at you...



....seriously, I feel left out.  Can we switch to blazing saddles.......


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## Huntinfool (Sep 13, 2011)

It's not nearly as funny.  Go buy it.  Don't rent it.  Buy it.  It's worth owning. 

Plus you need to watch it about a dozen times before everything starts to REALLY be funny.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....seriously, I feel left out.  Can we switch to blazing saddles.......



You're missing out.  You need to see "Holy Grail".  

I like "Blazing Saddles", but I don't even think that's Mel Brooks' best.  I'd rate the original "Producers" (with Zero Mostel and Gene Wilder) and "Young Frankenstein" ahead of it.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 13, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It's not nearly as funny.  Go buy it.  Don't rent it.  Buy it.  It's worth owning.
> 
> Plus you need to watch it about a dozen times before everything starts to REALLY be funny.




The opening credits had me


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok I am assuming that the amazing in a study group for you is not to be found in the greater "study group" called "religion" but in a more informal community and fellowship group.
> 
> I was told once by a priest that if it was not for religion there would be no "bible study groups". I think he had a point.
> 
> ...



How many y'all got pre nups?

That's about as kind as I can be regarding going "legal" by signature with one another.

What kingdom is being preached, anyway?

Let your yes be yes, your no be no.

The question of beer/alcohol is irrelevant. 
Might as well just go whole hog and swear to and sign to no longer sin, that is, if you really want to be above reproach.
Let me know how that signature and paper do to help you be a faithful witness of Christ.


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## StriperAddict (Sep 13, 2011)

Israel said:


> Might as well just go whole hog and swear to and sign to no longer sin, that is, if you really want to be above reproach.
> Let me know how that signature and paper do to help you be a faithful witness of Christ.


 
Great post.

It reminds me that we often forget our "deaths...

Death to sin (and alive to God through Christ alone)

Death to the Law (for the law of the Spirit of life has set us free)

and death to self, as our primary source (or life reference) for "getting it" done.

I can't possibly sign any contract or vow to stop sin, when the act of doing so puts another religious weight on my shoulders.  It's a weight God never intended us to bear; it becomes yet "another law" which of it's own power, will stir up the sin within.  Happy is he who sees the "easy yoke" and "burden" of the Lord, as Christ comes to be our power from sin, and is our strength to live life anew and abundant.  Our minds often keep us from that inner life because our emotional side wants to drive the train.  We must renew our minds daily to see ourselves for who we are in Him, and humbly confess our neglect of drawing on His life... for a few proud moments of our own doing.

Abiding seems so simple but we trade it for look'n good to the world around us far too many times.  Our Lord would have none of it, and beckons us to come and share in His bounty.  The brokenness/surrender all worth it.


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## Israel (Sep 13, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Great post.
> 
> It reminds me that we often forget our "deaths...
> 
> ...



Amen.

Can we leave the way of Christ...to preach Christ?
At what point do I ask the man offering the pen and statement of faith?...membership?...allegiance?...foreswearing of booze...let's go the Lord and see what he says?
I think...now.


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## formula1 (Sep 13, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> Formula 1 where are you?



Gordon2, I'm right here reading everyones comments.

I actually sympathize with JB0704 quite a bit.  I see alot of my own experience in his.  I understand the disdain he feels for the organized religion and the judgmental attitudes he feels staring right at him.  And I'm not going to tell him he needs to be back in a body of believers yet (though I think eventually he does).  It took me 8 years to do it again, and then with a long search for leadership I could have confidence and trust in.  But I did find that body of believers and that leadership. Yet no church is perfect so don't expect that.

JB, let me tell you something I learned about my experience:

Ephesians 4:25-32 (Please read it all)

28 Let the thief no longer steal, but rather let him labor, doing honest work with his own hands, so that he may have something to share with anyone in need. 

We as Christians have a responsibility to the Body of Christ on earth, even if we don't feel altogether comfortable in that setting as a result of being 'burned'. We have a responsibility to no longer steal, but to give to anyone who has need! In reality, looking back, I realize I could never give to others outside of a quality fellowship. If you read the whole context, I think you'll get what I'm saying. 

Jesus said in Luke 12:37
 Blessed are those servant,s whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at the table, and he will come and serve them.

When I realized I came to church to serve and not to be served, my perspective changed and my attitude changed and my healing began. I could no longer get offended at those who judge harshly, because my focus was on Christ and serving Him and nothing else really mattered.

The second thing that I must say to you is grace is a wonderful thing, but without truth, it is empty.

John 1
14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Jesus was full of both and if we are to be like Him, we must strive for that also.  One without the other is, quite frankly, useless. We have a good example of this in our political system: Republicans stress truth (law) at the expense of grace, Democrats express grace toward the needs of those in society often completely ignoring truth. And it is obvious, that these extremes have grossly failed our country. In the same manner, our churches fail because of holding onto extremes. There's a book that I read once that descibed this better than I ever could, called 'The Grace and Truth Paradox' by Randy Alcorn.  Perhaps you could read it when you can. What am I saying, temper you trend toward Grace with Truth of God's word. Others reading this may need the opposite.

God Bless! If you have a sincere Love for Jesus and what He has done for you, you will seek His purpose for you.  Of that, I am confident!


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## JB0704 (Sep 13, 2011)

formula1 said:


> God Bless! If you have a sincere Love for Jesus and what He has done for you, you will seek His purpose for you.  Of that, I am confident!



Thanks F1, I appreciate your thoughts, and I believe you are sincere. It looks like another book is on the list.  I will read them all.  I have issue accepting truth from men, but I can glean from perspective to discover if I see (or God reveals?) truth.  This post is a great example.  I have turned my thoughts over a few hundred times so far while contemplating everybody else's take on Job.  All the while, I have learned a good bit, been recommended a few books, and got reminded of some scripture I had previously not considered when forming my thoughts.  So I view it as very productive.

Maybe soon we can have a thread on here about when truth is a more appropriate message or context than grace.  I currently don't see how anyone can believe truth without grace, if that makes sense.......


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## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Gordon2, I'm right here reading everyones comments.
> 
> I actually sympathize with JB0704 quite a bit.  I see alot of my own experience in his.  I understand the disdain he feels for the organized religion and the judgmental attitudes he feels staring right at him.  And I'm not going to tell him he needs to be back in a body of believers yet (though I think eventually he does).  It took me 8 years to do it again, and then with a long search for leadership I could have confidence and trust in.  But I did find that body of believers and that leadership. Yet no church is perfect so don't expect that.
> 
> ...



A prayer would have no better answers. Thanks my friend. I'm going to re-read this  a few times and study it. It ministers to me and I hope it does others. Thanks again.

I don't know why but I got Woody Coffee on my mind right now. Way back when, when no one took me seriously about faith, God and Religion, when even pastors ignorned me as a carpetbagger, Woody Coffee would chime in, in their places ,and share with me, "Yes Gordon2 God is awesome."

I think the Spirit that animated Woody to "tolerate" a clumsy outsider animated with lots of questions is 20 times more awesome in my life today thanks to Woody the taxidermist.

And Formula 1, what else are you holding back?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 13, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks F1, I appreciate your thoughts, and I believe you are sincere. It looks like another book is on the list.  I will read them all.  I have issue accepting truth from men, but I can glean from perspective to discover if I see (or God reveals?) truth.  This post is a great example.  I have turned my thoughts over a few hundred times so far while contemplating everybody else's take on Job.  All the while, I have learned a good bit, been recommended a few books, and got reminded of some scripture I had previously not considered when forming my thoughts.  So I view it as very productive.
> 
> Maybe soon we can have a thread on here about when truth is a more appropriate message or context than grace.  I currently don't see how anyone can believe truth without grace, if that makes sense.......



Don't worry about another book right now. Just read and re-read F1's Post especially about the balance between grace and truth.... it is a bucket of condensed milk.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 13, 2011)

f1 great post! Thanks!!


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

> Let me know how that signature and paper do to help you be a faithful witness of Christ.



My suspicion is that JB and others would recoil just as violently were they simply asked to refrain for the time they were in service.  The signature is of little consequence to the reaction.

The ministry that my wife is involved with is world-wide and impacts literally 10's of thousands of woman every week through straight study of scripture.

Signing the paper allows her the opportunity of being a leader (she works with the children...and I can think of very few greater ways to serve) in this particular ministry.  So, in that sense, the signature helps her be a faithful witness.

I'm still no clear as to why it angers either of you so much that someone would ask you to sign a paper.  But have at it friends.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

> The second thing that I must say to you is grace is a wonderful thing, but without truth, it is empty.



Perfectly said and wonderfully profound my man.

They are equally important and one returns void without the other.


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## formula1 (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> And Formula 1, what else are you holding back?



In my best written southern Georgia (pronounced JawJa) venacular:

Thar ain't nuthin' like Jesus Christ my Lord!


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm still no clear as to why it angers either of you so much that someone would ask you to sign a paper.  But have at it friends.



Who is angry?  I was perplexed.  I was asked to help where there was a need, then after I agreed to help, I was told I was unqualified to meet that need because I wouldn't swear off beer.  Honestly, it was all in how they approached it.

The point isn't the paper, or the beer.  It is that they think by swearing off beer I am somehow more "worthy" than if I didn't.  There are so many "sinful" things a person could get themselves into, I just wonder how this one item helps anything.  Again, "above reproach" means so much more than beer and sexual immorality.  It just seems that is how many folks want to see it.

They didn't ask me to swear off fighting, or pride, or lieing, or unforgiveness, or bragging, or gossip, or slander.  These items are all harmful, and more so than beer.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

Israel sounds mighty upset about it.  I threw you in there because you're so offended by it.  Perhaps angry isn't the right word.  Offended may be better.

I, obviously, don't know what ministry you were trying to be involved in.  My suspicion is that they don't think you're "more worthy" if you sign that paper.  

Fighting, pride, lieing, unforgiveness, bragging, etc.  Those are all things I would suspect there is little disagreement on among different bodies or congregations.  Alcohol?  Well, there is a lot of difference between groups on whether or not it's acceptable and for various reasons...not all being "it's a sin".

This particular group does not want to be associated with alcohol for one reason or another.  Maybe they do consider it a sin.  I don't know.  Regardless, if that's how they feel, then if you want to serve with them, you submit to that request...end of story.

I'm guessing they did not yell "sinner!" as you were walking out the door after refusing to sign the paper, right?  They asked you to swear off beer because they felt there might be some inconsistency among those serving as to whether it's acceptable.  I don't think there was any question as to whether fighting or gossip was acceptable.

Bottom line, they are trying to make sure that all who represent that group of believers project the same set of beliefs for the sake of the work they are doing.  Is that a bad thing?

It's sort of like trying to join a baptist church and telling them, "well, I think sprinkling is just fine for baptism and I won't be dunked!".  Either you line up with the beliefs of a group you desire to serve with (or at least submit to them) or you find another group of believers to serve with.  

Your issue seems to be more with the perceived "judgment" on you as a person who drinks beer than with the request to abstain for a period of time.


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

HF, I was specifically approached by the organization.  I made no offer.  As a person who helps where I can, I said "sure."  I was not trying to join anything, so your baptist church example does not hold here.  

You and I may disagree on the bottom line.  I think it is a victory for tradition, and nothing else.  Nobody walked away edified by the incident.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

If you were offered your #1 all-time dream job and it came with a $500,000/yr salary (regardless of Obama's tax policies)....and they asked you to sign a piece of paper that said you won't drink beer for a year.....


....would the outcome be different?  


I'm sure you're going to find a way to say this somehow doesn't hold.  But be honest.  Would you sign it?


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

Sure.  But it is a financial exchange, not a spiritual matter.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  There are very different implications and justifications behind the two activities.  I know you think you are on to something, but you are not.  There are deeper principles involved in one exchange than the other.  You are simply taking a stand for legalism.  I was taking a stand against it.  In the end, we have to decide which side is the "moral" side.  Now, consider my previous thoughts:

Jesus was killed in God's name to enforce tradition based legalism.  For these reasons, and many others, I avoid it.  There was legalism in the "honor code."


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

> I know you think you are on to something, but you are not.



I know...I've never made a valid point.



> You are comparing apples to oranges.



See?  I told ya!  Ha!



Just indulge me for a minute.  What if that dream job was offered...and you were asked to sign....and it was because the guy who owns the company thinks drinking is a sin?  Would you sign it?


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Just indulge me for a minute.  What if that dream job was offered...and you were asked to sign....and it was because the guy who owns the company thinks drinking is a sin?  Would you sign it?




....then it wouldn't be my dream job.  Come on, HF, stop building straw men, and lets debate the matter at hand.

If you knew it was going there, why did you ask?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

It might not be your dream job...your right.  But that half mil sure would buy a whole lotta fishin' boat.

It's all in the perceived "reward"...isn't it?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 14, 2011)

formula1 said:


> In my best written southern Georgia (pronounced JawJa) venacular:
> 
> Thar ain't nuthin' like Jesus Christ my Lord!



True to my word, --as to the degree it is my ability--, I am studying truth( the subject) in the context here.  

From Eph. 4:25 in my Jerusalem Bible I am refered back to  Zc. 8:16

This is what God says:

Zc 8: 16 "These are the things that you must do. Speak the truth to one another; let the judgements at your gates be such as conduce to peace;

I suspect that if I could be at peace with myself then I could return or grant peace to others as is the will, the truth, of God.

So let's turn this around. 

If I could grant peace to others as is God's will, I know I will be at peace with myself in His will.

Zc 8: 23 "Yahweh Sabaoth says this. In those days, ten men of every language will take a Jew by the sleeve and say, "We what to go with you, since we have learned that God is with you."

I wonder sometimes if that Jew is not our very Job? and we the men and women of every language?


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

HF, You are looking at it backwards.  Why does the action need to be done?

When and why do we take stands for things.  It makes no sense to go to monks and preach about marriage.  It makes no sense to go to a Baptist preacher and preach the necessity of preaching.  There are different applications for different scenarios.  You know that, you are just being determined in your never ending effort to be correct.  You have overlooked the obvious.  Certain stands are taken against certain scenarios.

I think you see the world in only black and white, you should switch to color.  It's a beautiful world out there.


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> This is what God says:
> 
> Zc 8: 16 "These are the things that you must do. Speak the truth to one another; let the judgements at your gates be such as conduce to peace



So, is peace the goal of truth?  And could it be accomplished by judgements laced with grace?


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

> HF, You are looking at it backwards.




I'm sure I am...don't I always?




> There are different applications for different scenarios. You know that, you are just being determined in your never ending effort to be correct.



I'm not waiting for you to tell me I'm correct.  I'm not under the impression that you'll  admit that on any subject.

I'm just asking questions to clarify.  We only stand for our principles under certain circumstances.  That's what I was thinking.  

Color is beautiful.  You're right.  Color also allows for all kinds of very comfortable shades of gray.  When we stand for something, we stand for it all the time and in all circumstances.  Otherwise it's just a position of convenience.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 14, 2011)

Now about this wine thing, I am going to venture out on the limb of my experience. Not all nationalities or human families have the same reaction to wine--and for some I know it is because of genetic makeup. For example orientals we know because of the genetic makeup are easy drunks. They don't have to consume great quantities of Saki before they "feel" it compared say to caucasians.

Now this is were I venture in experience and is perhaps not accounted solely by genetics but rather cultures--and I am not judging believe me please.

The effect that wine has on the Irish and the Scots is different than the effect on the French and Italians. How about Germans and New Zealanders? How about the English and the Scandianvians?

Now my point is this: If a christian church came out of a culture where when men get drunk they regularly beatup ( even today) their "women", fight with each other and everybody else,  and change personalities faster than a fly buzzing around your head and you were asked to sign a declaration to abstain while ministering to them...would you sign? 

I would. I would not count it as the "law". We are all from somewhere.


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Color is beautiful.  You're right.  Color also allows for all kinds of very comfortable shades of gray.  When we stand for something, we stand for it all the time and in all circumstances.  Otherwise it's just a position of convenience.



......which is why you built a straw man about a "dream job" to discuss the merits of signing an oath not to drink beer.  The two scenraios are very different, and you know it.  You are just trying to back me into an ideological corner which does not exist.

Do we stand for principles all the time, sure.  So, any time a faith based organization asks me to serve, and says not drinking beer is a qualification, I will say no.  For many reasons:
1. There is no biblical justification for their position.
2. The fact they ask me to sign such a statement indicates that they believe the action is detrimental to the mission, and I disagree.
3. The existence of such an oath indicates those who do not abide are not worthy.
4. I hate legalism in faith based organizations.
5. Signing such an "oath" is no more binding than a verbal promise.

I will take the next scenario on it's merits as well.....

....But, In your context of always standing for principle, I assume you spend every free minute of your life on a street corner trying to win the lost, right?  Don't you think "sinners" should be saved?  Don't you think it is your responsibility to reach a "lost and dying world?"  Well, HF, put your money where your mouth is, get out there and take a stand.  Aren't we always to stand for principle?  I assume your co-workers have all been converted at this point because all you talk about is Jesus in the break room......

.....or, do you understand there are nuances involved in "taking a stand?"


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If a christian church came out of a culture were when men get drunk they regularly beatup ( even today) their "women", fight with each other and everybody else,  and change personalities faster than a fly buzzing around your head and you were asked to sign a declaration to abstain while ministering to them...would you sign?
> 
> I would. I would not count it as the "law". We are all from somewhere.



Yes, because I recognize the motivation as one which has justification.  One based only on tradition and legalism is worthless.

Let's put it this way:  in what I was asked to do, having a beer in my house was in no way detrimental to the mission.  It was just the organizations way of "weeding out" the "sinners."  Like I said to HF, there are nuances in every position.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

> The two scenraios are very different, and you know it.



I don't see it that way.  Otherwise I wouldn't have made the argument.  Either you stand against "legalism" on this issue or you don't.  Half a mil shouldn't make a difference.



> You are just trying to back me into an ideological corner which does not exist.



How are the acoustics from the corner you're standing in?




> ....But, In your context of always standing for principle, I assume you spend every free minute of your life on a street corner trying to win the lost, right? Don't you think "sinners" should be saved? Don't you think it is your responsibility to reach a "lost and dying world?" Well, HF, put your money where your mouth is, get out there and take a stand. Aren't we always to stand for principle? I assume your co-workers have all been converted at this point because all you talk about is Jesus in the break room......
> 
> .....or, do you understand there are nuances involved in "taking a stand?"



I don't think you understand what taking a stand means.  I do believe that the single mission that Jesus sent all believers on was to spread the gospel to all the world.  You are right about that.

Yes, I stand for Christ in my workplace.  I share him as often as I can and all around me know whose I am.  I don't stand in their cubicles with a bullhorn screaming scripture at them.  No, they haven't all been converted.  I'm a failure...you're right.

Absolutely it's my responsibility to reach a lost and dieing world.  That's why...if I felt strongly that a ministry opportunity was a great one and it gave me the chance to further the kingdom...I would sign a piece of paper that said I would abstain from drinking while I was serving with them.

It's not about the piece of paper.  It's about walking away from an opportunity to serve Christ simply for a self-righteous war against legalism.


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## JB0704 (Sep 14, 2011)

Peace, HF.  There is no sense in further debate.

How has your deer season gone so far?  I had too much homework and coaching to do, so I missed opening day for the first time in forever.  It was better that way, really, for other reasons I mentioned in other posts.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 14, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, because I recognize the motivation as one which has justification.  One based only on tradition and legalism is worthless.
> 
> Let's put it this way:  in what I was asked to do, having a beer in my house was in no way detrimental to the mission.  It was just the organizations way of "weeding out" the "sinners."  Like I said to HF, there are nuances in every position.



And I agree with you. However, some traditions have their genesis from booths and boots on the ground reality, which is not imediately evident and seems to be mere tradition and "the law".

Take the case of training a soldier. I am certain that it was said of sargent so and so that he was a "case" for tradition and regulation...until those very traditions and regulations saved your buddies lives out in the field of operation.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 14, 2011)

> How has your deer season gone so far? I had too much homework and coaching to do, so I missed opening day for the first time in forever. It was better that way, really, for other reasons I mentioned in other posts.



Only been out once....opening day.  Saw three does and a fawn.  But nothing got within 45yds.  Three kids, job and other stuff doesn't let me spend much time in the woods these days.  But it was fun to get out there on opening day and not sweat my butt off!


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## formula1 (Sep 14, 2011)

*Re:*



gordon 2 said:


> True to my word, --as to the degree it is my ability--, I am studying truth( the subject) in the context here.



Great words in Zechariah.  And I know men of every tongue and language are coming to the robe of the Jew of peace, even today, even in us as we speak, hungry for God's touch. Job indeed knew and was in awe of Him, as you and I also are. What a wondrous God we serve!

Might I also suggest Isaiah 65 and John 17 for your truth studies.  Truth lives, my friend! And we live because of Truth!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 14, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> So, is peace the goal of truth?  And could it be accomplished by judgements laced with grace?



Sorry but I did not catch this. Now I might be incorrect or partly so. Peace itself is the truth of God. That is what His teachings are all about.



Zc 8: 16 could be paraphrased such as this:  "These are the things that you must do. Speak peace to one another; let the judgements at your gates be such as conduce to it.

It is written like this: Zc 8: 16 "These are the things that you must do. Speak the truth to one another; let the judgements at your gates be such as conduce to peace.

So to follow, the truth, or peace is our way of not getting hurt by an unfavorable response to our walk in Christ and in grace. Like Formula 1 indicated they go together. One is always at the eye of a storm (Peace) and the other always active in and at the margins of the tempest ( grace).

Now this is just my .02cents... take one leave one....sort of thing.

Please excuse me but I'm going to explore a bit more.

So lets see how this applies to the Key lime pie and tea world of religion and church attendance.  The centre of a healthy church should be truth or  accord, respect and peace. It should be internaly "peaceful" and externaly it should behave peacefully.  It should not be uproar and discord. It should respect people with an eye to peace or God's truth because that is were grace gets us to. But peace is much more than a goal here, it is also the center of our relationships in faith. Those relationships make for fellowship and ministry that is "amazing" and rewarding for all.

Now I know why pastors and priest often say, "May the peace of Christ be with you." That peace is God's truth . May the truth of Christ be with you.


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