# American Atheists to put up monument next to 10 commandments



## Four (May 30, 2013)

Apparently in florida, some christian group put up a big statute of the 10 commandments in front of a government building. The american atheists got the government to tell them to take it down but the religious group refused, citing that god told them not to... So now instead of sueing the group, they got the ground to be a free for all, so the american atheists are putting up their own monument.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...e-city-courthouse-with-monument-of-their-own/


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## ddd-shooter (May 30, 2013)

Why? Atheists are always comparing God to a flying spaghetti monster and the bible as fairy tales. Why would they feel second class if these things are as silly ad they let on? Will they also go around placing monuments  next to Santa Claus displays? Disclaimers on children's literature and cartoons? 
If there is no God, why does all this phony stuff irritate them so much?


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## Four (May 30, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Why? Atheists are always comparing God to a flying spaghetti monster and the bible as fairy tales. Why would they feel second class if these things are as silly ad they let on? Will they also go around placing monuments  next to Santa Claus displays? Disclaimers on children's literature and cartoons?
> If there is no God, why does all this phony stuff irritate them so much?



Several reasons.

Its unconstitutional. Placing a religious monument on public land is the state enforcing or at least favoring a religion.

Religious influences can/are very destructive, especially when combined with the state.

Atheists have already been placing secular decorations next to santa displays. 

Basically, it boils down to this. The reason why secularist have a problem with religion and not cartoons or fantasy / sci fi books is that cartoons and fantasy don't claim to be true.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 30, 2013)

Four said:


> Several reasons.
> Its unconstitutional. Placing a religious monument on public land is the state enforcing or at least favoring a religion..



I disagree.  The state did not place it there.



Four said:


> Religious influences can/are very destructive, especially when combined with the state.



Agree with this post with the exception of "are" which implies universality.



Four said:


> Atheists have already been placing secular decorations next to santa displays.
> 
> Basically, it boils down to this. The reason why secularist have a problem with religion and not cartoons or fantasy / sci fi books is that cartoons and fantasy don't claim to be true.



Actually it boils down to something more basic than that.  It boils down to a conflict over "What is true?"


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## hummdaddy (May 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Actually it boils down to something more basic than that.  It boils down to a conflict over "What is true?"



prove it beyond mans stories ,fairy tails in a book....show me this oh so elusive GOD,that someone saw create adam sand and his sister from his rib and they populated the earth with their two sons...


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## ddd-shooter (May 30, 2013)

I'll see your unconstitutionality, and raise you another. 
I urge the atheists to also take their efforts to other parts of the world. Muslim countries would really appreciate their sentiments. 
I say that tongue in cheek because it is the very heart of the Christian belief that everyone is valuable. Everyone deserves love, respect, and forgiveness. These qualities encourage the free exchange of ideas, and contrary to popular belief  God doesn't mind our questions. The rest of the world is not so tolerant.


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## Four (May 30, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I'll see your unconstitutionality, and raise you another.
> I urge the atheists to also take their efforts to other parts of the world. Muslim countries would really appreciate their sentiments.
> I say that tongue in cheek because it is the very heart of the Christian belief that everyone is valuable. Everyone deserves love, respect, and forgiveness. These qualities encourage the free exchange of ideas, and contrary to popular belief  God doesn't mind our questions. The rest of the world is not so tolerant.



I don't really care about the constitution much, i just mentioned it because the Establishment Clause is a big part of what the american atheist organisation uses.

I certainly don't forget the Muslim theocracies.


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## JB0704 (May 30, 2013)

Four said:


> I don't really care about the constitution much.....





A pacifist / anarchist?


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## Four (May 30, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> A pacifist / anarchist?


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## TripleXBullies (May 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Actually it boils down to something more basic than that.  It boils down to a conflict over "What is true?"



I think that's what he said.. The things more widely accepted as fairy tales... have no claim to be TRUE.


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## ted_BSR (May 30, 2013)

Four said:


> I don't really care about the constitution much, i just mentioned it because the Establishment Clause is a big part of what the american atheist organisation uses.
> 
> I certainly don't forget the Muslim theocracies.



This sort of statement sticks in my craw. You would care plenty about the US Constitution if you didn't have it. 

Leave. Leave NOW! Go somewhere else that doesn't have the US Constitution.

Go there quickly, and good riddance.

I can't say anything more to express the intensity of my anger about this statement without being vulgar................
No No:No No:No No:No No:


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## ted_BSR (May 30, 2013)

Four said:


> Several reasons.
> 
> Its unconstitutional. Placing a religious monument on public land is the state enforcing or at least favoring a religion.



This is wrong. Study harder.... or, just leave. Bye Bye.


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## Four (May 31, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> This sort of statement sticks in my craw. You would care plenty about the US Constitution if you didn't have it.
> 
> Leave. Leave NOW! Go somewhere else that doesn't have the US Constitution.
> 
> ...



Interesting, you'd think the atheist thing would get more rage then some anti-gov rhetoric.


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## ted_BSR (May 31, 2013)

Four said:


> Interesting, you'd think the atheist thing would get more rage then some anti-gov rhetoric.



Nope. That Constitution thingy that you don't care about ensures your right in the USA to believe or not believe what you want. Your disregard for such an important document is just sad. I am over being mad. Now I just feel sorry for you.


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## Dominic (May 31, 2013)

Why would any Christian be offended by this? Our faith should be stronger then any weapon an atheist would try to use against us.


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## Ronnie T (May 31, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Why would any Christian be offended by this? Our faith should be stronger then any weapon an atheist would try to use against us.



Amen.
Monuments with religious reference have been being placed on government and public property since the beginning of the nation.

God bless the atheist.  Put up your monument.  If I'm ever down that way I'll be sure to stop by and read it.


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## fish hawk (Jun 1, 2013)

Four said:


> Atheists have already been placing secular decorations next to santa displays.
> 
> .



If I walked up on secular decorations next to a santa I'd drop kick them into the next county......The nerve!!!


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## TheBishop (Jun 1, 2013)

Four said:


> I don't really care about the constitution much, i just mentioned it because the Establishment Clause is a big part of what the american atheist organisation uses.
> 
> I certainly don't forget the Muslim theocracies.



Statements like this use to bother me, now, not so much.  Our Constitution is obviously flawed, or else we would not be in the mess we are in today. I think after reading it, that it does not go far enough to prevent government from incroaching on the individual, and could be written in a manner to provide for much stricter control of government. I think it was a good start but wholly inadequate to maintain a free republic.


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## TheBishop (Jun 1, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> If I walked up on secular decorations next to a santa I'd drop kick them into the next county......The nerve!!!



Your obviously a champion of freedom and tolerance.


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## TheBishop (Jun 1, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Why would any Christian be offended by this? Our faith should be stronger then any weapon an atheist would try to use against us.



Chill out dude it's not a war.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 1, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> Chill out dude it's not a war.



I'm not so sure the atheist organization understands that!
.


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## vowell462 (Jun 1, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm not so sure the atheist organization understands that!
> .



Posts like #17 make me think that christians dont understand that.


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## hunter rich (Jun 1, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Will they also go around placing monuments  next to Santa Claus displays?



Uh...What does Santa (a fictional character beyond all doubt) have to do with anything here?


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## TheBishop (Jun 1, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Posts like #17 make me think that christians dont understand that.



It is definetly the christians that are alot more militant.


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 1, 2013)

hunter rich said:


> Uh...What does Santa (a fictional character beyond all doubt) have to do with anything here?



To the atheist, God is on the same level as Santa. My point was why don't they put disclaimers next to all sorts of fictional displays. Maybe have a voice over before sesame street? We don't want anyone of our impressionable youth to think big bird is real after all...


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 1, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> It is definetly the christians that are alot more militant.


Ever read Hitchens?


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## fish hawk (Jun 1, 2013)

Four said:


> Several reasons.
> 
> Its unconstitutional. Placing a religious monument on public land is the state enforcing or at least favoring a religion.
> 
> ...





hunter rich said:


> Uh...What does Santa (a fictional character beyond all doubt) have to do with anything here?



That up there in red^^^.Lighten up,it's just a joke.What a dull life yall must live.


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## fish hawk (Jun 1, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> Your obviously a champion of freedom and tolerance.



Funny you mention that!If you go to the link that was posted you should not only read the article but also the comments posted below it.I have come to the determination  that atheist make champion liberals!!!


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## fish hawk (Jun 1, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Posts like #17 make me think that christians dont understand that.


You too!!!See below!I did put a smile behind my post though.


fish hawk said:


> Funny you mention that!If you go to the link that was posted you should not only read the article but also the comments posted below it.


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## Dominic (Jun 1, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Why would any Christian be offended by this? Our faith should be stronger then any weapon an atheist would try to use against us.





TheBishop said:


> Chill out dude it's not a war.



If you read the comments posted under the article you can see many of the commentators wishing a Christian would destroy this display. I'm just saying this is a weapon, or maybe bait would be a better word, used by the atheist to get a reaction. If our faith is strong and we don't react then the bait spoiled.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 1, 2013)

Four said:


> Apparently in florida, some christian group put up a big statute of the 10 commandments in front of a government building. The american atheists got the government to tell them to take it down but the religious group refused, citing that god told them not to... So now instead of sueing the group, they got the ground to be a free for all, so the american atheists are putting up their own monument.
> 
> http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friend...e-city-courthouse-with-monument-of-their-own/


Oh the irony. Atheist standing on principle and religiously defending it.


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## ted_BSR (Jun 1, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> Statements like this use to bother me, now, not so much.  Our Constitution is obviously flawed, or else we would not be in the mess we are in today. I think after reading it, that it does not go far enough to prevent government from incroaching on the individual, and could be written in a manner to provide for much stricter control of government. I think it was a good start but wholly inadequate to maintain a free republic.



I sort of agree, I think the "interpretation" of our constitution is what is flawed. I also think the authors of it warned us that it would happen. I don't think the author's meant for the political elite class to turn into what it is today.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Jun 2, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> I sort of agree, I think the "interpretation" of our constitution is what is flawed. I also think the authors of it warned us that it would happen. I don't think the author's meant for the political elite class to turn into what it is today.


Our founders also gave us several devices on how to correct the current problems in government and how to deal with the political elite.


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## Jeff Phillips (Jun 2, 2013)

So Atheists are setting a precedent that religious monuments and displays are acceptable on government property? Cool!


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## vowell462 (Jun 2, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> It is definetly the christians that are alot more militant.



Its always been that way. Centuries of killing. With people talking about getting offended by someone toying with a Santa display, and drop kicking them, it makes me believe they are perfectly capable of doing it again.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Its always been that way. Centuries of killing.



Of course, they atheists only had one good century of killing -- the 20th.


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## vowell462 (Jun 2, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Of course, they atheists only had one good century of killing -- the 20th.



what am I missing?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> what am I missing?



Beats me.


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## ted_BSR (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Its always been that way. Centuries of killing. With people talking about getting offended by someone toying with a Santa display, and drop kicking them, it makes me believe they are perfectly capable of doing it again.



Lots of people have done terrible things in the name of God. Many of them are probably wrong. (I think you are probably referring to acts like the Crusades. Things like that fall under the heading of "probably wrong")

On the other hand, if you have a something to defend, it would stand to reason that you will defend it. 

For a loose example. If some group of people, any group, came to my house and demanded that I burn my bibles and renounce God, I would fight them.


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## fish hawk (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Its always been that way. Centuries of killing. With people talking about getting offended by someone toying with a Santa display, and drop kicking them, it makes me believe they are perfectly capable of doing it again.


You need to reread my post your so hung up on.....Again!!!


fish hawk said:


> If I walked up on secular decorations next to a santa I'd drop kick them into the next county......The nerve!!!



Mention was made of putting up a secular decorations next to a santa clause.....Where in the post does it say I want to drop kick anyone.I state that I will drop kick the secular decorations."They" as in the decorations.......
Maybe that clears it up for you.....hopefully!!!I walk up on secular decorations not someone putting out secular decorations.....BTW santa is not a religious decoration anyways.


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## vowell462 (Jun 2, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> You need to reread my post your so hung up on.....Again!!!
> 
> 
> Mention was made of putting up a secular decorations next to a santa clause.....Where in the post does it say I want to drop kick anyone.I state that I will drop kick the secular decorations."They" as in the decorations.......
> Maybe that clears it up for you.....hopefully!!!I walk up on secular decorations not someone putting out secular decorations.....BTW santa is not a religious decoration anyways.


 Thanks for the clarification. Perhaps my wording wasnt good enough. I didnt mean you were going to drop kick a person, i knew what you meant. Either way, someone who would take the time to drop kick a display of decorations to me shows a lack of self control. Do you kick down other religous decorations during the winter solstice? Since im hung up according to you, why are wanting to defend Santa so much?


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## vowell462 (Jun 2, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> Lots of people have done terrible things in the name of God. Many of them are probably wrong. (I think you are probably referring to acts like the Crusades. Things like that fall under the heading of "probably wrong")
> 
> On the other hand, if you have a something to defend, it would stand to reason that you will defend it.
> 
> For a loose example. If some group of people, any group, came to my house and demanded that I burn my bibles and renounce God, I would fight them.



Thats a good point Ted. And I applaud you for standing by your beliefs and would defend that at your home. No argument there. To me, religion should be personal. And if someone violates your personal things or beliefs, I would fight them too.
I was mainly speaking of the 14th and 15th centuries. That stuff didnt just happen in Spain, but all over Europe. People were made to believe and if they didnt they were killed for heresy. You know the history im sure.


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## vowell462 (Jun 2, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Beats me.



fair enough


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## centerpin fan (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I was mainly speaking of the 14th and 15th centuries. That stuff didnt just happen in Spain, but all over Europe. People were made to believe and if they didnt they were killed for heresy.



But how does that affect you?


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## vowell462 (Jun 2, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> But how does that affect you?[/QUOTE
> 
> Never said it did or didn't. Does it leave a bad taste in my mouth? Yes, because if it weren't for all the killing, it wouldn't have spread everywhere.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Never said it did or didn't. Does it leave a bad taste in my mouth? Yes, because if it weren't for all the killing, it wouldn't have spread everywhere.



First, you seem to have a very selective "bad taste".

Second, how many people were killed during the Spanish Inquisition?


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## Dominic (Jun 2, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I was mainly speaking of the 14th and 15th centuries. That stuff didnt just happen in Spain, but all over Europe. People were made to believe and if they didnt they were killed for heresy. You know the history im sure.



You are right it did not just happen in Spain, but it also may not have happened the way you think it did. 

Two books

_Inquisition_ Edward Peters

_The Spanish Inquisition_ Henry Kamen


http://old.nationalreview.com/comment/madden200406181026.asp


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## fish hawk (Jun 3, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Since im hung up according to you, why are wanting to defend Santa so much?



Because santa is so cool.....He has a white beard,shiny boots with brass buckles,a kickin red suit,an awesome hat,he has little elves waiting on him hand and foot,majic dust,he can go up and down chimneys,has a sack full of goodies and probably the best and sweetest ride a man could possibly want.Whats not to like about thatOh yea and he says Ho,Ho,Ho too!!! how could an atheist display possibly top that???What do yall display next to santa anyways?A little pyramid of beer cans with Thomas Jefferson and Bill Maher Quotes ............Jefferson had a cool wig but he aint got nothing on santa's locks!!!No No:


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## vowell462 (Jun 3, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> First, you seem to have a very selective "bad taste".
> 
> Second, how many people were killed during the Spanish Inquisition?



Selective? Not sure how you mean. I have a bad taste on any organized religion. Simply for the fact that each claims to have it right and don't recognize that they might not.

You can get different answers on how many deaths from the both major inquisitions. Anywhere from 6000 to tens of thousands. Just depends on what you google.

I come to this forum daily and have for the past few years. I don't post as much because its a continuous circle of bashing that never seems to get anywhere. I come here to learn believe it or not. I try to understand what it is that has people feeling these great powers of almighty.


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## TheBishop (Jun 3, 2013)

fish hawk said:


> Because santa is so cool.....He has a white beard,shiny boots with brass buckles,a kickin red suit,an awesome hat,he has little elves waiting on him hand and foot,majic dust,he can go up and down chimneys,has a sack full of goodies and probably the best and sweetest ride a man could possibly want.Whats not to like about thatOh yea and he says Ho,Ho,Ho too!!! how could an atheist display possibly top that???What do yall display next to santa anyways?A little pyramid of beer cans with Thomas Jefferson and Bill Maher Quotes ............Jefferson had a cool wig but he aint got nothing on santa's locks!!!No No:



Thomas Jeffferson is way cooler than santa any day.  One is an American hero, that put his life on the line for this country, and the other is a pirated symbol, during a pirated holiday, that 99% people celebrating couldn't tell you just part of the truth about.


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## ambush80 (Jun 3, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Selective? Not sure how you mean. I have a bad taste on any organized religion. Simply for the fact that each claims to have it right and don't recognize that they might not.
> 
> You can get different answers on how many deaths from the both major inquisitions. Anywhere from 6000 to tens of thousands. Just depends on what you google.
> 
> I come to this forum daily and have for the past few years. I don't post as much because its a continuous circle of bashing that never seems to get anywhere. I come here to learn believe it or not. I try to understand what it is that has people feeling these great powers of almighty.




They feel their lives meaningless without him.


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 3, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Selective? Not sure how you mean. I have a bad taste on any organized religion. Simply for the fact that each claims to have it right and don't recognize that they might not.
> 
> You can get different answers on how many deaths from the both major inquisitions. Anywhere from 6000 to tens of thousands. Just depends on what you google.
> 
> I come to this forum daily and have for the past few years. I don't post as much because its a continuous circle of bashing that never seems to get anywhere. I come here to learn believe it or not. I try to understand what it is that has people feeling these great powers of almighty.


I'm pretty sure most atheists/ non religious people are prettySure they are right and will not admit they could be wrong. 
There were more deaths in the 20th century than all previous centuries combined. At least that's the general consensus.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 3, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> You can get different answers on how many deaths from the both major inquisitions. Anywhere from 6000 to tens of thousands. Just depends on what you google.



I could not find anything that high -- not even 6,000.


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 3, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> They feel their lives meaningless without him.



On a separate idea, where do you derive meaning for life?


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## ambush80 (Jun 3, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I'm pretty sure most atheists/ non religious people are prettySure they are right and will not admit they could be wrong.
> There were more deaths in the 20th century than all previous centuries combined. At least that's the general consensus.



They are as sure that god does not exist as they are sure that a rock falls down.   When I see a rock fall up, I will have to change my thinking.


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## Dominic (Jun 3, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> You can get different answers on how many deaths from the both major inquisitions. Anywhere from 6000 to tens of thousands. Just depends on what you google.



Which is why you don't use google you look to academic research.

Such as 

Henningsen (Gustav), ""The Database of the Spanish Inquisition. The "relaciones de causas"-project
revisited"", Monhaupt (Heinz), Simon (Dieter), ed., Vorträge zur Justizforschung. Geschichte und Theorie,
1993, Band 2, pp. 43-85.


Henningsen estimates for the 200 year period of the Spanish Inqusition there were 44,674 cases tried, there were 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie (death in absentia as a symbolic act).


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## centerpin fan (Jun 3, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Henningsen estimates for the 200 year period of the Spanish Inqusition there were 44,674 cases tried, there were 826 executions in persona and 778 in effigie (death in absentia as a symbolic act).



This is much closer to what I found.


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## ted_BSR (Jun 3, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Which is why you don't use google you look to academic research.
> 
> Such as
> 
> ...



Well, yes, a lot of that goes on in here. Wikipedia too. and You Tube.....

Better hang on to you hat Dominic.


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## Four (Jun 4, 2013)

More controversy!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...onument-graffiti_n_3380958.html#slide=2518584


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Which is why you don't use google you look to academic research.
> 
> Such as
> 
> ...



I didnt actually google anything. It was just a witty remark. The point to the question asked was that I cant answer that because the numbers are over the place. Historians have it different from each other. Im sure I can go back and forth with how many were burned during the time period of the medevil inquisitions and spanish inquisitions, but would it do any good?


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## Dominic (Jun 4, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I didn't actually google anything. It was just a witty remark. The point to the question asked was that I cant answer that because the numbers are over the place. Historians have it different from each other. I'm sure I can go back and forth with how many were burned during the time period of the medevil inquisitions and Spanish inquisitions, but would it do any good?



Historians have locked down how many died during the Inquisitions. There is plenty of academic research on the subject. 



vowell462 said:


> Never said it did or didn't. Does it leave a bad taste in my mouth? Yes, because if it weren't for all the killing, it wouldn't have spread everywhere.



Your original supposition was, without all the killing "it" (Christianity? Religion?) would not have spread. 

So answering the question "how many were killed?" is pretty relevant. If there were thousands killed to force conversion as you claim then your argument has weight. The problem is the actual numbers do not bear the weight to be in favor of your argument.


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 4, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> centerpin fan said:
> 
> 
> > But how does that affect you?[/QUOTE
> ...


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Historians have locked down how many died during the Inquisitions. There is plenty of academic research on the subject.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess you should search death toll rates in Europe at the same time as the inquisition. They say there were over 60,000 killed in all over Europe for " witchcraft".

There is a lot of academic research, and the question of how many were killed suggest to only the inquisition. Thats not all I was speaking of. Again, it happened all over Europe, not just the supposed few thousand ( which is acceptable?) that are documented throughout the Spanish Inquisition.


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> vowell462 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea if Jesus and those who followed didn't get killed for their faith, the religion wouldn't have spread. Good thing they didn't know. Like the bible says, had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
> ...


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I'm pretty sure most atheists/ non religious people are prettySure they are right and will not admit they could be wrong.
> There were more deaths in the 20th century than all previous centuries combined. At least that's the general consensus.



No. Agnostics are non religious. They recognize the fact that NOBODY really has the answers. So in essence, I guess they are right.


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## Dominic (Jun 4, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I didnt actually google anything. It was just a witty remark. The point to the question asked was that I cant answer that because the numbers are over the place. Historians have it different from each other. Im sure I can go back and forth with how many were burned during the time period of the medevil inquisitions and spanish inquisitions, but would it do any good?





vowell462 said:


> I guess you should search death toll rates in Europe at the same time as the inquisition. They say there were over 60,000 killed in all over Europe for " witchcraft".
> 
> There is a lot of academic research, and the question of how many were killed suggest to only the inquisition. Thats not all I was speaking of. Again, it happened all over Europe, not just the supposed few thousand ( which is acceptable?) that are documented throughout the Spanish Inquisition.



Again there were not a "few thousand" killed in during the  Spanish Inquisition. 

If you were not speaking of only the Inquisitions then why fame your orginal argument around the Inquisitions? 



vowell462 said:


> Thats a good point Ted. And I applaud you for standing by your beliefs and would defend that at your home. No argument there. To me, religion should be personal. And if someone violates your personal things or beliefs, I would fight them too.
> I was mainly speaking of the 14th and 15th centuries. That stuff didnt just happen in Spain, but all over Europe. People were made to believe and if they didnt they were killed for heresy. You know the history im sure.





vowell462 said:


> Never said it did or didn't. Does it leave a bad taste in my mouth? Yes, because if it weren't for all the killing, it wouldn't have spread everywhere.



Christianity spread thru Europe well before the 14th and 15th century, so I guess I am still trying to figure out which "killings" spread Christianity thru a continent that already already had Christianity?


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## bullethead (Jun 4, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> vowell462 said:
> 
> 
> > Yea if Jesus and those who followed didn't get killed for their faith, the religion wouldn't have spread. Good thing they didn't know. Like the bible says, had they known they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
> ...


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 4, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> No. Agnostics are non religious. They recognize the fact that NOBODY really has the answers. So in essence, I guess they are right.


So they put forth a certainty that no one knows and they stand by it by saying they are not wrong. Even though they could be because someone may have the answers.


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 4, 2013)

bullethead said:


> ddd-shooter said:
> 
> 
> > Debunking the Myth of Persecution
> ...


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> So they put forth a certainty that no one knows and they stand by it by saying they are not wrong. Even though they could be because someone may have the answers.



They arent wrong, are they? Think about it, no matter what you believe to be true, there is still an uncertainty. An someone who recognizes that uncertainty, isnt wrong. Its the " could be " factor.


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## ddd-shooter (Jun 4, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> They arent wrong, are they? Think about it, no matter what you believe to be true, there is still an uncertainty. An someone who recognizes that uncertainty, isnt wrong. Its the " could be " factor.



They are still positing a certainty that there can be no certainties...


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Again there were not a "few thousand" killed in during the  Spanish Inquisition.
> 
> If you were not speaking of only the Inquisitions then why fame your orginal argument around the Inquisitions?
> 
> ...


Again, go back to my original post about the subject and it suggests the time period in question. CP asked me seperatly about the Spanish Inquisition, and I replied with a vague, none certain answer. Historians have not "locked down" that time period. They have only locked down what was documented. The whole point was it wasnt just in Spain, it was all over Europe. And yes, the word was forced upon people. Not sure what your'e trying to do here.


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## vowell462 (Jun 4, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> They are still positing a certainty that there can be no certainties...



yep. so what are we discussing again?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 4, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Again, go back to my original post about the subject and it suggests the time period in question. CP asked me seperatly about the Spanish Inquisition, and I replied with a vague, none certain answer. Historians have not "locked down" that time period. They have only locked down what was documented. The whole point was it wasnt just in Spain, it was all over Europe. And yes, the word was forced upon people. Not sure what your'e trying to do here.



I'm reading a very interesting book right now called _Worshipping the State_.  The author has a section in one chapter on "who killed who".  The secular wars win by a wide margin.


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## Four (Jun 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm reading a very interesting book right now called _Worshipping the State_.  The author has a section in one chapter on "who killed who".  The secular wars win by a wide margin.



I've often believed that religion as a destructive force is second only to government.


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## centerpin fan (Jun 5, 2013)

Four said:


> I've often believed that religion as a destructive force is second only to government.



What's #3?


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## Four (Jun 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> What's #3?



Don't really have a prepared list...  Mental health issues?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 5, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> They are as sure that god does not exist as they are sure that a rock falls down.   When I see a rock fall up, I will have to change my thinking.



I find it odd that you posit an example to express your disbelief in the supernatural that rests on a natural law that by its very existence must have a supernatural origin.
Call me crazy, but dat dere juss don make no sense.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 5, 2013)

Four said:


> I've often believed that religion as a destructive force is second only to government.



Oh, but my friend you are forgetting the absolute worst....religious government or government religion.


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## Four (Jun 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Oh, but my friend you are forgetting the absolute worst....religious government or government religion.



Seriously, the terror.


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## ambush80 (Jun 6, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I find it odd that you posit an example to express your disbelief in the supernatural that rests on a natural law that by its very existence must have a supernatural origin.
> Call me crazy, but dat dere juss don make no sense.



You say that with so much conviction......Must be true?


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