# Ibo rules



## whossbows (Mar 22, 2011)

wonder why a long bow cant be cut to center shot,has to be at least 1/8 in out????????


----------



## Jake Allen (Mar 22, 2011)




----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 23, 2011)

*Just because...*



whossbows said:


> wonder why a long bow cant be cut to center shot,has to be at least 1/8 in out????????



Somebody decided that it is not a "real longbow" if it doesn't meet their arbitrary criteria.... kinda like the reasons I can't use my aluminum riser 3 piece takedown recurve at most trad shoots... either the aluminum riser or the "elevated rest" make it "not true traditional" to somebody in charge.  

Kinda silly.  One place I shoot has a Trad "wood on wood" category (only wood arrows and wood bows) and a Trad "other" category.  As you can imagine, there is very little to zero participation in the wood on wood category, and rarely more than 3-5 in the Other category.  

Honestly, if it has no cams, no sights, and no external stabilizers, what is the need in making further distinctions (for a big Trad event, I can see separate longbow and recurve divisions just to let the proponants of each type square off, but beyond that, why ?)


----------



## Jake Allen (Mar 23, 2011)

Hence, the popcorn.

I think there is more than one Longbow Class;
LB, (cut no more than 1/8"), and MLB, (aka Modern Longbow)

Anyway, rules I have seen posted:
(complete set)
http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=220931&category=88#2937949

Covering the bow type in question:

Longbow (LB) Bow – One-piece, or two-piece take down. Other regulations same as current IBO longbow rules: A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers, archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check or clicker may be used. Arrows shall be made of wood and shall be identical in length, weight, and color (allowances shall be made for normal wear). Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. Archers will shoot from the orange stake. 

_A longbow shot in LB shall conform to the following specifications: _

1. The bowstring, when the bow is strung, may only contact the nocks of the bow. 2. _[COLOR="red[COLOR="Black"]"]The riser should be cut [/COLOR]no __closer than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, however, if a riser is cut less than 1/8 inch to the outside of the centerline of the bow, a pad may be added so that the arrow rests on a surface no closer than 1/8 inch outside the centerline of bow_. [/COLOR]3. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow; except a bow quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. 4. A longbow may have a draw weight of up to 90 pounds (measured at the face edge of the bow at the arrow shelf at 28 inches draw). 

Modern Longbow (MLB) 

Bow – Can be of any design as long as string only touches string grove or bow tip. Other regulations same as current Traditional IBO rules: A longbow shot with fingers directly contacting the bowstring using a glove, finger tab, or bare fingers. Archers may use up to two (2) nock locating devices, but they must use the same nocking point and anchor point for each shot and the index finger must contact the string in the same place for each shot. The index finger must touch the nock of the arrow. Face and/or string walking are not permitted. No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight. Aluminum or carbon arrows must have screw-in field points; wood arrows may have glue on points. All arrows must have at least three (3) feathers or vanes no less than four (4) inches long. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness. Archers will shoot from the orange stake.


----------



## whossbows (Mar 23, 2011)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## Ranger B (Mar 23, 2011)

When IBO first began there was a group of traditional shooters from Texas who shot longbow.  This was in the 90s, when IBO went from compound only to traditional classes.  At that time those guys felt that the longbow class should have to deal with the paradox of the arrow verses a center shot bow.  That has continued to this day.  It is an item that is being considered as something that might change.  

There are other changes under consideration which shows that IBO is fully aware of the equipment, it's advantages and disadvantages.  The Modern Longbow class is shooting as high or higher scores than the Recurve class so perhaps in the future those classes could merge.  At 30 yards and under there isn't much difference in them, but beyond 30 the speed advantage of the recurve makes a difference.

As for the elevated rest it makes a big deal. Especially, if you have a threaded hole in the riser and add a plunger.  With it you change the spine of the arrow thus you can precisely tune the bow to the arrow and adjust it.  When shooting off the shelf you have to tune the arrow and dance with the date you brought to the  shoot so to speak.  Hope this makes sense.  

Please don't assume the worst in organizations that are trying to promote our sport/passion.  Also, don't assume that they don't understand the equipment we use to shoot the target.


----------



## whossbows (Mar 23, 2011)

it just caught my eye,i make my own bows and get as close to the center as i can then put on a leather pad,shooting off the shelf,maybe i got one that is not hardly on the center,planning on being there at pappys place in july anyway,,thanks for the info


----------



## Ranger B (Mar 23, 2011)

I sincerely look forward to meeting you.  By the way -- love the picture.


----------



## RogerB (Mar 24, 2011)

I have read the IBO rules and am not sure which class my Dalaa will fit into, I am shooting it off the shelf they mold into the riser and with the bolt they supply as an adjustable side plate. Does how far out it is screwed make a difference. I have just some velcro on both.


----------



## Jake Allen (Mar 24, 2011)

Roger, if you can post a picture of your rest and sideplate,
maybe Ranger B can help make the call.

My guess you would be in the RU class.

BTW, I fixed the above link to go directly to the rules.

http://leatherwall.bowsite.com/TF/lw/thread2.cfm?threadid=220931&category=88#2937949


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 24, 2011)

*My point - simplify...*



Ranger B said:


> When IBO first began there was a group of traditional shooters from Texas who shot longbow.  This was in the 90s, when IBO went from compound only to traditional classes.  At that time those guys felt that the longbow class should have to deal with the paradox of the arrow verses a center shot bow.  That has continued to this day.  It is an item that is being considered as something that might change.
> 
> There are other changes under consideration which shows that IBO is fully aware of the equipment, it's advantages and disadvantages.  The Modern Longbow class is shooting as high or higher scores than the Recurve class so perhaps in the future those classes could merge.  At 30 yards and under there isn't much difference in them, but beyond 30 the speed advantage of the recurve makes a difference.
> 
> ...



My point is simply this - if you want to promote the sport, make the rules easier to understand and comply with.  I don't have IBO shoots near me, so am not familiar with their rules.  I generally compete in ASA in Open classes with compound equipment, so I understand that technology "add ons" can provide certain advantages.  However, when you have criteria such as "raised rests not allowed", and new people show up and that is all they have to shoot, and all they have ever shot, it is not promoting the sport.  Perhaps the IBO big events do have a category where that style recurve can be used.  Many local trad events simply prohibit them.

I agree that a plunger style rest CAN make it easier to tune the bow/arrow combo, but the archer still must develop the skill to tune it and shoot it.  The plunger or raised rest does not,  by itself, make the bow substantially more accurate like, say a sight.  Requiring bows be shot "off the hand or shelf" is just getting into too much minutia of detail and likely to unnecessarily deter some participants. Other examples would be brace height or bow length requirements or limitations, and construction materials requirements, such as not allowing certain string materials.  That is getting into single digit feet per second "advantages" in a class where sights are not used - can it really make that big of a difference ?

I have experimented with all kinds of things and shooting styles, and not one gadget or equipment tweak can offset properly setting up and knowing how to shoot your equipment.  In a sport that needs to recruit more participant, I hate to see peculiar equipment rules excluding folks or hampering their enjoyment, such as when they are told they can shoot, but their score won't count for competition.

I am not a big-time Trad shooter, so maybe those "little things" are bigger deals than I perceive them to be


----------



## Jake Allen (Mar 24, 2011)

Also, whether I agree with all the rules or not, I admire an 
organization, club or whatever, for making things clear,
and making them available before someone decides to spend
their cash to make the trip, or even think about attending the shoot.

Mr. Meadows, the bow you describe is like one we, at times,  affectionally 
refer to as a "scumbag" bow. 
RogerB shoots one at times, so do I, TNGIRL and Pinenut.
In fact, RogerB made all of those fine bows. 

You are welcome to shoot your setup at NGT. 
Who knows, you just might wind up flingin' arras
with someone shooting a hickory selfbow they 
whittled from a stave the week before.


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 24, 2011)

So I spend most of my time using "training wheels" and when I do come out for the trad shoots, I have a "scumbag" bow... man, am I feelin' the love now or what ??  LOL

Well, mine is not a homemade one, it is actually an old PSE Sierra Hunter, an ILF limb bow that PSE put out in camo with 55 lb limbs a few years ago.  If I hunt with a recurve, that's what I like to use, mainly because I like the mass weight of the aluminum riser - feels more "normal" to me since I have been shooting compounds for 20+ years.

I actually shot at the TBG Dan Quillian Memorial this past weekend, but I took my Quinn Longhorn which does shoot off the shelf for that one, primarily because it is 5# lighter and I knew my shoulder would feel better after it was over.  

If I did shoot my ILF bow with the guy who carved his own the week before, I'd probably score 50 points less, because he probably "knows" his bow better after 1 week than I do mine.  I got outscored by an old guy with a G&B longbow this weekend in fact, (my uncle in law, George Darden) even though I was shooting my supposedly faster recurve.


----------



## Ranger B (Mar 24, 2011)

It's disheartening to know that there are shoots where they will say you can't shoot due to your bow.  At all shoots I've participated in you can show them your bow and shoot in a category.  Now, I don't always love it. ie. if you shoot barebow at the NFAA Vegas shoot you have to shoot against compound barebow shooters --string walkers.  My problem with that is that they are holding about 15# at anchor vs. a recurve guy with his max weight at anchor.  But, you can shoot.  At IBO shoots you will have a category and you can use the raised rest.  I think you are referring to the built up material on the shelf and not the sideplate.  We just don't allow soft spongy material that will affect the paradox of the arrow ie. a hommade plunger.

I guess what got my attention was your comment, "Somebody decided its not a real longbow."  I perceived it as a condescending statement and I spend countless hours working on the traditional side of IBO. Levy Bryant and I wrote those rules and we agonized over them because for every person lobbying for a longbow wood only class there is another lobbying for carbons and aluminums.  We know that we will never please everyone so at the end of the day he and I ask ourselves, "Are we doing what we genuinely think is best for the sport and not necessarily someone's personal interests."  I didn't mean to come back bitter, it's just that I'm sensitive to it due to the time and energy we've put into it.  We really do have the interest of our sport in mind.  We may go about it differently than othes would sometimes but it's not done blindly.  We hear from all sides of each arguement/issue.


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 24, 2011)

I appreciate the effort that goes into these kinds of decisions, and you are right you can never please everyone all the time.  Still, I think the simpler, the better.  While communicating up front is great, we all know many folks do not take the time that we do to read all the rules in advance.  

I don't mean to turn this into a "this group's rules are better than that group's rules" argument, but here is the rule for the single Traditional Class for another organization:

Bow must be either recurve or longbow without wheels or cams.  No release aid, no sights, a single stabilizer up to 12” in length measured from the point of attachment, no overdraws, no draw checks, must have one finger touching the arrow nock, and must use one consistent anchor point.  No marks on the sight window, string, or bow to use as an aiming or judging reference.  All arrows must be identical in size, weight and construction.


Yes, the stabilizer thing is a little odd, but I doubt many would really gripe if that was removed, as I don't think many people really believe that a 12" stab will suddenly provide incredible accuracy.  I'd say the critical factors are here - no cams, no release aids, no sights, no draw checks, one finger must touch nock, consistent point of anchor, no sight marks, consistent arrows.  

No one has to break out their micrometer to measure where center shot is cut.  If you have a plunger rest on your recurve, you can shoot against your off-the-shelf brothers.  No distinctions about "soft materials" behind or beneath the shelf pads.  All wood, aluminum with carbon limbs, or your 30 year old fiberglass are all covered.

I still come back to the key question of "does something REALLY provide a significant enough advantage to justify a rule against it ?

Thanks for the dialogue and insight, guys.  One day when I get tired of competing with training wheels, I might come compete without cams & sights more regularly.


----------



## TGUN (Mar 24, 2011)

ok, I have to chime in. dg, I think you underestimate how some of those small things added up in the advantage category. I have been a serious shooting competitor all my life. first at a world class level in IPSC, then fairly good in skeet. fact was that on any given day I could win local IPSC matches with a stock government model against weekenders with full race guns but that did not mean I was "about the same" with a stock gun as I was with my race gun. I have been shooting trad for about 2 years now (and got into this partly to compete)  so I am no expert in this sport, but after studying equipment, I think all the rules I have seen are spot on as far as distinguishing classes. As I encountered the same type of questions in IPSC, my answer is: it is not about a lesser skilled person having an advantage, it is insuring equally skilled competitors, who enjoy the competition,  compete on equal ground. ranger, coming from a competitive background, I think the rules you helped put together  [ especially as laid out for the trade world ] do what they are intended to do, frame the sport and level equal competitors. fact is someone who is world class with a longbow can go in my backyard, cut a few sticks out of a tree and mop the floor with me even if I was  shooting a center shot, pluggered, stabilized 2,000 dollar bow. Keep in mind that the rules are to frame the overall structure of the competition (not a crossbow match) and for equal competitors to stay fairly equal.


----------



## whossbows (Mar 24, 2011)

all this over an 1/8 in from center,,,,,,,,,,,,,mmmmmmmmmmmmm


----------



## RogerB (Mar 24, 2011)

Lines have to be drawn and I fully agree there are advantages in equiptment used, however, I am not trying to complain about or even address where I think they should be. I am simply trying to determine what class I will be put in if I shoot my Dalaa at the IBO Trad Worlds. I would be shooting it off the stock Dalaa shelf (which looks built up but it is their shelf) and with the stock bolt they supply for a side plate (my arrows are weak so it is screwed out a good bit for tuning, if my arrows were stiffer spined it would not be out as far). No plunger and no "elevated" rest. I would prefer to shoot my Dalaa, but I don't want to shoot in RU. If I need to switch to one of my WARFs ("Scumbags") I will. I just want to know now so I can begin practicing with it. I think my Dalaa (the way I have it set up and shoot it) belongs in Recurve, but If you say it doesn't OK, I can and will live with your decission and be happy with it. I would just like to know. I DON'T want to spend all season shooting one bow and when I show up have to shoot another.
Because of the way the rules are written, and Dalaa's are made I am just not sure. I have had people look at it and say they "think" it will be allowed or won't be allowed in Recurve, but only your decission matters.
Simple as that.

A final thought; if being cut close to center is an advantage in Longbows, I am actually putting my self at a disadvantage shooting my Dalaa with the bolt screwed as far out as I am. So if the material you build out a side plate with is hard, i.e. a steel bolt , what difference does it make how thick it is?


----------



## Ranger B (Mar 24, 2011)

Can you post a picture so I can see it?  As long as it's off the shelf and the strike plate is a hard substance then it's recurve. If you are taking away from the center shot bow by moving it out but you are tuned then no big deal in terms of advantage, you are just making the arrow have to go through paradox more severely than if it were spined closer and you were shooting down the middle.


----------



## dgmeadows (Mar 25, 2011)

*My last comment....*



RogerB said:


> Lines have to be drawn and I fully agree there are advantages in equiptment used, however, I am not trying to complain about or even address where I think they should be. I am simply trying to determine what class I will be put in if I shoot my Dalaa at the IBO Trad Worlds. I would be shooting it off the stock Dalaa shelf (which looks built up but it is their shelf) and with the stock bolt they supply for a side plate (my arrows are weak so it is screwed out a good bit for tuning, if my arrows were stiffer spined it would not be out as far). No plunger and no "elevated" rest. I would prefer to shoot my Dalaa, but I don't want to shoot in RU. If I need to switch to one of my WARFs ("Scumbags") I will. I just want to know now so I can begin practicing with it. I think my Dalaa (the way I have it set up and shoot it) belongs in Recurve, but If you say it doesn't OK, I can and will live with your decission and be happy with it. I would just like to know. I DON'T want to spend all season shooting one bow and when I show up have to shoot another.
> Because of the way the rules are written, and Dalaa's are made I am just not sure. I have had people look at it and say they "think" it will be allowed or won't be allowed in Recurve, but only your decission matters.
> Simple as that.
> 
> A final thought; if being cut close to center is an advantage in Longbows, I am actually putting my self at a disadvantage shooting my Dalaa with the bolt screwed as far out as I am. So if the material you build out a side plate with is hard, i.e. a steel bolt , what difference does it make how thick it is?



I promise, this is my last comment on this, as I think the dead horse is  sufficiently beaten:

If a guy like RogerB, with his obvious level of knowledge and experience in Trad shooting, cannot reasonably interpret the rule, perhaps it is overly complicated ?

His last question gets to the crux of my point - what difference does it really make, and why a rule against allowing archers to micro-tune their bow to shoot better for them ?  By analogy to my area of primary expertise - compound bows with scopes & other high tech stuff - this rule against using certain materials and certain ways of setting up the rest  would be like having a rule against drop away rests in the compound divisions, because there is a perceived accuracy advantage over prong or blade style rests.  I did not immediately become able to hit the 12 every time when I went to a drop away rest, I just felt I was able to obtain a cleaner more consistent arrow flight, and I don't see how using some soft material behind your side plate will suddenly give someone's recurve bow a decidedly unfair advantage.  Perhaps it would give them better arrow flight with the arrows they currently have, but they still have to hold and release the bow properly to hit the 10 ring.  

These types of rules seem to be more seated in protecting some group of individual's ideals of what is and is not "traditional".  In fact, it provides an advantage to the hard core trad archer who has the years of experience and is willing to spend the time (and money) to figure out exactly which shafts can be tuned to shoot off their bow without soft side plates etc.  So, in a nutshell, this rule means you must tune your arrow to your bow; you are not allowed to tune your bow to your arrow.


----------



## RogerB (Mar 25, 2011)

Thanks Ranger B, I will post some tonight, when my daughter gets home to help me. LOL


----------



## TNGIRL (Mar 25, 2011)

just so you know how knowledgeable and filled with wisdom he is....this is the lovely and talented RogerB as he goes over arrow weights etc with the rest of us.......gotta love him his point is well taken....





next to RogerB, is the equally talented and knowledgeable dutchman....he's not understanding!!!!


----------



## Fatboy (Mar 25, 2011)

Roger as I've read it the Dalaa with the bolt can be used in the recurve class.I would be very disappointed in the IBO if it is otherwise.An adjustable side plate is no different than using a hard material to build out the side plate on any other bow.The hump is part of the bow so it cannot be an elevated rest either.Same as building up under a rug on the flat shelf of a recurve.


----------



## Jake Allen (Mar 25, 2011)

dgmeadows said:


> These types of rules seem to be more seated in protecting some group of individual's ideals of what is and is not "traditional".  In fact, it provides an advantage to the hard core trad archer who has the years of experience and is willing to spend the time (and money) to figure out exactly which shafts can be tuned to shoot off their bow without soft side plates etc.  So, in a nutshell, this rule means you must tune your arrow to your bow; you are not allowed to tune your bow to your arrow.



To each their own sir. Shoot what's in your heart, and makes you happy. 

IMO, the advantage should go to the person who
has spent the time, and energy to practice, tune,
and know their equipment.

As Pinenut so eloquently waxed not long ago:
"There seems to be a special bond between those
who like doing things the hard way." 

This thing of ours ain't for everyboy.


----------



## RogerB (Mar 25, 2011)

Tomi, I don't know if you could have gotten a worse picture of me (with my shirt on that is).  
I will let Dutchman speak for himself: olk:

I promise to all, I was not and am not trying to start an arguement, I just wanted an offical rules ruling. As I said, I can and will live with however the call is made, and be happy with it.


----------



## whossbows (Mar 26, 2011)

i just want to shoot,dont matter what with


----------

