# Your vote...



## GeauxLSU (May 25, 2006)

FOR CHRISTIANS ONLY.  

Please vote.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (May 25, 2006)

It's the most ungodly thing I can think of period.


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## GAGE (May 25, 2006)

Does a rape, molestation or incest count as a demand?  I am not for abortion but there are times that I am not against as well.


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## GeauxLSU (May 25, 2006)

GAGE said:
			
		

> Does a rape, molestation or incest count as a demand?  I am not for abortion but there are times that I am not against as well.


It is meant to cover all 'birth control' type abortions so yes.  But if you'd prefer to answer based on a different set of guidelines that's fine.  My problem with starting down that slope is.  
OK, rape is an exception, sure don't want to be pregnant.  
Ok, molestation is an exception, sure don't want to be pregnant.  
OK, incest is an exception, sure don't want to be pregnant. 
Ok, well I was in a fight with my boyfriend and we were really drunk and I didn't really want to do it, sure don't want to be pregnant.  
Ok, I can't believe I'm pregnant again I've already got enough kids and my husband sure ain't gonna' be happy about this one, sure dont' want to be pregnant.  
Ok, I was out, what was that guys name, man what a crazy night sure don't want to be pregnant.  
Good grief, I must not have taken my pill on time no way I'll get that promotion if I'm pregnant and have to take maternity leave during the budget season, sure don't want to be pregnant.....

Actually, nevermind, for purposes of this poll, and for clarity's sake, unless the life of the mother is endangered or the child will not survive then an 'on demand abortion' is any other abortion.


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## mikelogg (May 25, 2006)

there are very few circumstances where an abortion should be allowed.on demand aint one of them.


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## Spotlite (May 25, 2006)

Opposed, against it with no exceptions


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## Dixie Dawg (May 25, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Opposed, against it with no exceptions



Not even if the life of the mother depended on it?

NOT looking to start a debate at all, just curious!

  Had an experience with my dad when I was 5 years old... we were living in Puerto Rico and my dad had an artery burst, he nearly bled to death and had to have numerous blood transfusions. My mom was a JW at the time, and was told by the church that if she signed for him to have a blood transfusion, she would be excommunicated.  Given the choice of excommunication or raising 3 children ages 5 and under by herself, it didn't take long for her to make the decision.  That decision gave my dad another 31 years and counting... and although he did contract Hep. C from the transfusion, even he says it could have been a lot worse... this was back in 1975 before they did good blood screening, etc.  He's lucky he didn't get something worse, like AIDS.

Anyway, I was just wondering if it would change the decision for some if the mother's life was involved, that's all.

And for the record, I have respected Phil's request and have not voted in this poll


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## SBG (May 25, 2006)

For what it is worth...I read somewhere that less than one percent of all abortions were a result of the mother's life being in jeopardy. I'm sure it was a pro-life source.

Does anyone know of a legitimate unbiased source for any stats?

Anyway, I believe that abortion is murder...and I have no doubt God thinks the same way.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 25, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> For what it is worth...I read somewhere that less than one percent of all abortions were a result of the mother's life being in jeopardy. I'm sure it was a pro-life source.
> 
> Does anyone know of a legitimate unbiased source for any stats?




I don't.... but I wouldn't doubt that's correct.  I also know there are a lot of mothers that would risk it anyway and would say no to an abortion even if it meant their life was on the line.


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## GAGE (May 25, 2006)

Phil thanks for clearing that up and my answer remains the same.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 25, 2006)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> On a broader scale, can we have an abortion debate here and survive, or should we start looking for the exits?


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## Dub (May 25, 2006)

GAGE said:
			
		

> Does a rape, molestation or incest count as a demand?  I am not for abortion but there are times that I am not against as well.



Well said.


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## matthewsman (May 25, 2006)

*I don't believe in abortion on demand*

I, as a father, would give my life for a chance at life for any of my children.If I was carrying them,I would consider it my duty to do the same...I also think it should be made easier and less expensive to adopt.I think it is a pity that the left cries and screams and makes theatrics at the news of soldiers deaths in a volunteer army,but gets angry in their defense of killing innocent chidren......

It is a travesty if a child is injured in a war in another country,but it's ok to kill them by the dumptruck load here,then go out with a latte in your hand and speak of the responsible "thing" you did by not having a child.......

I know there is support for unwed mothers,if they ask for it....I know there are post abortion programs for woman and forgivness available as from any other sin.I am still adamantly against it.I also am forever thankful my mother was too.......as all of us should be........


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## Jody Hawk (May 25, 2006)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:
			
		

> It's the most ungodly thing I can think of period.



Amen Brother !!!!!!! I hope it is outlawed one day.


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## GeauxLSU (May 25, 2006)

Dixie,
Thanks and to answer your question, I have specifically said, "unless the life of the mother is endangered or the child will not survive then an 'on demand abortion' is any other abortion."  





			
				SBG said:
			
		

> For what it is worth...I read somewhere that less than one percent of all abortions were a result of the mother's life being in jeopardy. I'm sure it was a pro-life source.
> Does anyone know of a legitimate unbiased source for any stats?
> Anyway, I believe that abortion is murder...and I have no doubt God thinks the same way.


SBG, I have read plenty of objective stats and if I recall there is extensive data available online from the CDC.  I can't imagine they'd have a dog in the fight.  Regardless every source I've ever read says that well in excess of 97% and normally 99% of all abortions are simply a means of post conception birth control.  Nothing more nothing less.  We like to concentrate on the sensational (rape etc...) but that simply doesn't amount to a drop in the bucket.  For this conversation, assume I'm talking about birth control. 
As a Christian, I'm not sure HOW the child was conceived changes the rights of the child or the value of the child in God's eyes but obviously it does for some.


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## Lead Poison (May 25, 2006)

*No. Mtn. Ga. Man and SBG are absolutely correct.*



			
				SBG said:
			
		

> For what it is worth...I read somewhere that less than one percent of all abortions were a result of the mother's life being in jeopardy. I'm sure it was a pro-life source.
> 
> Does anyone know of a legitimate unbiased source for any stats?
> 
> Anyway, I believe that abortion is murder...and I have no doubt God thinks the same way.



Abortion is murder in God's eyes. 

No matter who the father is and no matter the circumstances, the child is STILL born from its very own mother! How can woman kill her own child!


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## Dixie Dawg (May 25, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Dixie,
> Thanks and to answer your question, I have specifically said, "unless the life of the mother is endangered or the child will not survive then an 'on demand abortion' is any other abortion."




I know, I saw that... I was just asking Chris since he said "no exceptions".... was just curious if that included the exception you listed above   Not looking to debate, just curious!  

I will say though that I am surprised at the voting results so far... if others are respecting your request that only Christians answer, I am surprised that there are any votes for "Not opposed".  I thought all Christians would be opposed to abortion.  See, I have learned yet another lesson from this forum


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## GeauxLSU (May 25, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> I know, I saw that... I was just asking Chris since he said "no exceptions".... was just curious if that included the exception you listed above   Not looking to debate, just curious!


Gotcha'.


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## SBG (May 25, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> SBG, I have read plenty of objective stats and if I recall there is extensive data available online from the CDC.  I can't imagine they'd have a dog in the fight.  Regardless every source I've ever read says that well in excess of 97% and normally 99% of all abortions are simply a means of post conception birth control.  Nothing more nothing less.  We like to concentrate on the sensational (rape etc...) but that simply doesn't amount to a drop in the bucket.  For this conversation, assume I'm talking about birth control.
> As a Christian, I'm not sure HOW the child was conceived changes the rights of the child or the value of the child in God's eyes but obviously it does for some.



I've heard basically the same stats. The rape/incest/safety of the mother arguments are smoke and mirrors that are intended to deflect attention from the most prevalent reason that abortions are performed...because of boo boos.

One thing that this discussion does bring to the forfront is the fact that there are so called "Christians" that will find excuses to support such an an atrocious act. 

There are some that would even cast a vote for a politician that supported the right to a late term abortion. Or claim that they would support some baby butcher politician over President Bush because of the increased gas prices. Sad!


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## Branchminnow (May 25, 2006)

God made the child a living soul ,the law of man doesnot count and cannot be considered.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (May 26, 2006)

I believe God is quite clear in that He sees things in black and white, there are no grey areas in his mind.  Something is either right or wrong, no in-between.  Though I sympathize with those victims of rape and/or incest and think that God should make an exception in those cases,  He didn't ask me.  It doesn't matter if I agree with His rules, He knows better than I.  So, I believe abortion is wrong no matter what the circumstance is.  If a mother's life is in danger and the pregnancy or child birth kills her, she has died a natural death.  If the baby is killed during pregnancy or child birth, that's murder.  I may seem to be blunt and I offer no apologies for it.  There may be some here that has faced or will face situations such as this, my heart and prayers are with you.


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## bradpatt03 (May 26, 2006)

i voted "i am not sure" because it depends to me on the situation...

when its being used as an easy way out by 2 kids who didn't use protection- no, i think its wrong then...

but, to me- if a girl is raped and is pregnant, she should not have to birth the horrible person's child and live with that...


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## Spotlite (May 26, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Not even if the life of the mother depended on it?
> 
> NOT looking to start a debate at all, just curious!


Dont worry, not taken as a debate, I will try to answer best I can, and this is my feelings and should not be taken as to force something down others throats as well.

NO EXCEPTIONS, God and God only is giver of life and it is not our place to decide on which occasion to take that life.
I cant get it off the top of my head but there is a scripture I think in Jeremiah that says basically "I knew you even before your mothers womb" (not an exact quote.) No matter what the doctors call the baby at different stages, it is a soul with a heart beat right from the start. I am almost certain that the majority of women do not want a baby from rape or anything else that they had no choice in making, but it still comes down to an unwanted baby. And like others have said and my wife agrees, when it comes to the life of the mother being saved, she would gladly give it up for her child. A child being in jeopardy from a pregnancy well.... we have prayer for that, "C" sections and other things to bring them into this world.


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## dutchman (May 26, 2006)

If God is against it (and I believe He is), then how could I ever be for it?


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## TreeFrog (May 26, 2006)

Just so you know, of the abortions in the United States annually, rape, incest, and to save the mother's life noramlly make up 3-5% of the total number.  There is also strong evidence stating that "to save the mother's life" is almost non-existent.  Because of modern emergency C-section technology both lives are saved in almost all of these cases.  While I firmly oppose abortion in all cases, I think reducing the current number by 95-97% is a really good start!


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## Double Barrel BB (May 26, 2006)

matthewsman said:
			
		

> I, as a father, would give my life for a chance at life for any of my children.If I was carrying them,I would consider it my duty to do the same...I also think it should be made easier and less expensive to adopt.I think it is a pity that the left cries and screams and makes theatrics at the news of soldiers deaths in a volunteer army,but gets angry in their defense of killing innocent chidren......
> 
> It is a travesty if a child is injured in a war in another country,but it's ok to kill them by the dumptruck load here,then go out with a latte in your hand and speak of the responsible "thing" you did by not having a child.......
> 
> I know there is support for unwed mothers,if they ask for it....I know there are post abortion programs for woman and forgivness available as from any other sin.I am still adamantly against it.I also am forever thankful my mother was too.......as all of us should be........



AMEN!  I couldn't have said it better....


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## GeauxLSU (May 26, 2006)

David Mills said:
			
		

> I believe God is quite clear in that He sees things in black and white, there are no grey areas in his mind.  Something is either right or wrong, no in-between.  Though I sympathize with those victims of rape and/or incest and think that God should make an exception in those cases,  He didn't ask me.  It doesn't matter if I agree with His rules, He knows better than I.  So, I believe abortion is wrong no matter what the circumstance is.  If a mother's life is in danger and the pregnancy or child birth kills her, she has died a natural death.  If the baby is killed during pregnancy or child birth, that's murder.  I may seem to be blunt and I offer no apologies for it.  There may be some here that has faced or will face situations such as this, my heart and prayers are with you.


David,
Do you believe God approves of you taking another's life in self defense?  Do you believe God approves of capital punishement?  

Don't want to stray too far and appreciate everyone's comments so far.


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## Double Barrel BB (May 26, 2006)

Just a side note, not meaning to get   but if anyone knows of any babies coming up for adoption me and my wife would really love to be considered.

See it seems that we can't have children, and the doc's are not really sure why. We currently have a foster child and have only had him for one week and we are already so attached. We know that he will be with some family members probably in the next few weeks, but I don't think we could have asked for a better child to foster.

Thanks for your prayers.
DB BB


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (May 26, 2006)

> Do you believe God approves of you taking another's life in self defense? Do you believe God approves of capital punishement?



Phil, I'll have to ponder the self defense part.  But capital punishment, yes.  I believe in Genesis it says "He who sheds man's blood, by man his blood will be shed".

I've got some chores to do so I'll get biblical references later.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (May 26, 2006)

God bless ya'll DB BB


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## Mechanicaldawg (May 26, 2006)

David Mills said:
			
		

> God bless ya'll DB BB




What he said! 

I know several couples with your heart, desire and situation and am continuously amazed by the love and care for little ones that God has planted in their hearts.


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## Randy (May 26, 2006)

Abortion like any other sin is between that person and their God.


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## SBG (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Abortion like any other sin is between that person and their God.



Randy, in application, what does that mean?


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## Mechanicaldawg (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> Abortion like any other sin is between that person and their God.



So is assault with intent to kill?

So is robbery?

So is rape?

So is any other form of murder?


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## Randy (May 26, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Randy, in application, what does that mean?



It means that while I do not agree with it, luckily God asked that I not judge anybody.  I get to leave that up to God and that person.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 26, 2006)

David Mills said:
			
		

> So, I believe abortion is wrong no matter what the circumstance is.  If a mother's life is in danger and the pregnancy or child birth kills her, she has died a natural death.  If the baby is killed during pregnancy or child birth, that's murder.  I may seem to be blunt and I offer no apologies for it.  There may be some here that has faced or will face situations such as this, my heart and prayers are with you.



Hmmmm.... so if someone has cancer, should they not seek to remove the problem to save their life?  After all, it would be a natural death, correct?

Again, I'm just asking, not trying to start a debate.  I know feelings run strong on this topic on both sides and appreciate everyone's right to their opinion.  I guess to me it really doesn't matter much one way or the other, because no matter what anyone's opinion is, the fact remains that each woman's body is her own, and if a woman really wants an abortion, she is going to have one whether it is legal or not.  Abortions were performed loooong before they were legal, and if they should be made illegal again, they would still be performed.  So, in that respect, I'm just asking out of curiosity.  I know there are some sects of Christianity that don't believe in intervening with the natural progression of things (like I listed yesterday about my mother being forbidden by the JW's to sign for a blood transfusion to save my dad's life) so that would not surprise me.

I do find it a bit interesting that no other women have commented on this thread?


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## SBG (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> It means that while I do not agree with it, luckily God asked that I not judge anybody.  I get to leave that up to God and that person.



So we shouldn't judge the murderer or the rapist or the child molestor?

That passage of scripture..."judge not lest ye be judged" is one of the most mis-interpreted in the whole Bible.


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## Spotlite (May 26, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hmmmm.... so if someone has cancer, should they not seek to remove the problem to save their life?  After all, it would be a natural death, correct?
> 
> Abortions were performed loooong before they were legal, and if they should be made illegal again, they would still be performed. I listed yesterday about my mother being forbidden by the JW's to sign for a blood transfusion to save my dad's life) so that would not surprise me.


Cancer is something that needs treating for a person to survive, a baby is not the same situation. It might kill the lady for having to go through the pain of having it and having to grow up to raise it, but if she is in that bad of shape as far as health, she would either loose it naturally or the doctors can do a C-section. No comparison there.

As far as your Dad goes, giving blood to save a life as honorable as it gets for helping someone out. Your trying to help that person live and that is always a good thing, but it still does not compare to a baby, you got to help that baby live to.

And yes it will still be performed just like murder will still be committed, it still dont mean its right.


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## Mechanicaldawg (May 26, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> I know there are some sects of Christianity that don't believe in intervening with the natural progression of things (like I listed yesterday about my mother being forbidden by the JW's to sign for a blood transfusion to save my dad's life) so that would not surprise me.



What does that have to do with Christainity or any sect thereof?


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## PWalls (May 26, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> That passage of scripture..."judge not lest ye be judged" is one of the most mis-interpreted in the whole Bible.



Not only mis-interpreted, but mis-applied as well. Every one now seems to want to sidestep around issues and sins instead of dealing with them.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (May 26, 2006)

> the fact remains that each woman's body is her own



That's one huge misconception, we do not belong to ourselves, we belong to God and we really don't have the right to whatever we want to with ourselves.



> so if someone has cancer, should they not seek to remove the problem to save their life



Cancer is not a life, it does not have a soul, it does not have a brain, it does not have a heart.


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## FESTUSHAGGIN (May 26, 2006)

im not voting in the poll but i will give my opinion.  do i believe in abortion because somebody messed up and dont want to suffer the consequences, ABSOLUTELY NOT.

if a girl is raped,  yes i think she should have the choice to get an abbortion.

if my wife is in danger if she gives birth, yes i think abbortion is ok.

i feel that people use abortion as a means of birth control, and in this type situation i am very much against abortion.  but as i have stated there are exceptions.


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## Randy (May 26, 2006)

FESTUSHAGGIN said:
			
		

> i feel that people use abortion as a means of birth control, and in this type situation i am very much against abortion.  but as i have stated there are exceptions.



I agree.  While I don't think it should be used for a means of birth control, I personally am not willing to adopt that kid either.  And if the studies are any indication, that kid has a real good chance of growing up being a non-contributing citizen in this world.  Do I think that is a reason for abortion?  No but I am not willing to take on that responsibility either.

What I am getting to is, all those that oppose abortion so strongly should eihter be willing to adopt those kids and take care of them or let that kid's parent decide how they won't to take care of them.  In the end that is between that parent and God.


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## GAGE (May 26, 2006)

Is there any circumstance that without putting yourself in that position that in your mind would/could warrant an abortion?

   Strictly hypothetically speaking (only a question and not looking to change anyones mind or debate) ...Your daughter is out for a jog in any park USA and is beaten up and raped  by 1 guy or a group of guys and left for dead,   although she is not dead, she is pregnant...besides go DEATHWISH on the people responsible, what is a christian father to do?


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## GAGE (May 26, 2006)

FESTUSHAGGIN said:
			
		

> im not voting in the poll but i will
> i feel that people use abortion as a means of birth control, and in this type situation i am very much against abortion.  but as i have stated there are exceptions.




I agree 100%


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## Dixie Dawg (May 26, 2006)

David Mills said:
			
		

> That's one huge misconception, we do not belong to ourselves, we belong to God and we really don't have the right to whatever we want to with ourselves.




I'll agree to disagree.  If we didn't have the right to do whatever we want with ourselves, God would not have given us free will.

If you think I'm wrong, that's ok... try telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body   (or a man, for that matter)


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## Spotlite (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> I agree.  While I don't think it should be used for a means of birth control, I personally am not willing to adopt that kid either.  And if the studies are any indication, that kid has a real good chance of growing up being a non-contributing citizen in this world.  Do I think that is a reason for abortion?  No but I am not willing to take on that responsibility either.
> 
> What I am getting to is, all those that oppose abortion so strongly should eihter be willing to adopt those kids and take care of them or let that kid's parent decide how they won't to take care of them.  In the end that is between that parent and God.


Given the choice between me adopting that kid or killing it, I would adopt it in a heart beat.


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## Spotlite (May 26, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> I'll agree to disagree.  If we didn't have the right to do whatever we want with ourselves, God would not have given us free will.
> 
> If you think I'm wrong, that's ok... try telling a woman what she can or can't do with her body   (or a man, for that matter)


The ladies body is not the unborn baby.


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## Dixie Dawg (May 26, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> The ladies body is not the unborn baby.




Technically speaking, you are correct.  However, the woman has the decision of whether or not to carry the baby in HER body and go through pregnancy, labor and delivery... and until science figures out a way to remove a child intact and 'transplant' it into another womb, there is no other way to remove the baby if the woman decides not to complete the pregnancy.

What a difference it would be if they could remove the baby intact and put it in another woman's body...!!!  I'll bet they are able to do this someday....


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## GeauxLSU (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> What I am getting to is, all those that oppose abortion so strongly should eihter be willing to adopt those kids and take care of them or let that kid's parent decide how they won't to take care of them.  In the end that is between that parent and God.


Randy,
I GLADLY would, TODAY as a matter of fact.  
The 'wait list' for adoptive parents is ridiculous.  2-7 years in most cases which is why hopeful parents are flying all over the world to adopt foreign kids with many times NO health records.  Adoption is such a simple solution to ANY unwanted pregnancy for the mother who doesn't want to be 'inconvenienced' by raising a child.  The least I would think someone could do is give the kid life and a loving home.  They can just walk away.  I almost lost my lunch the day I heard the father of a pregnant teen tell me he'd rather his daughter have an abortion than put the child up for adoption?!?!  How in the world do you combat 'logic' like that???  
I guess adoption just makes too much sense.  Believe me Randy, you would NOT have to take on the responsibility.  THOUSANDS of waiting, loving, capable, hopeful, parents are PRAYING for the opportunity.


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## Spotlite (May 26, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Technically speaking, you are correct.  However, the woman has the decision of whether or not to carry the baby in HER body and go through pregnancy, labor and delivery... and until science figures out a way to remove a child intact and 'transplant' it into another womb, there is no other way to remove the baby if the woman decides not to complete the pregnancy.
> 
> What a difference it would be if they could remove the baby intact and put it in another woman's body...!!!  I'll bet they are able to do this someday....


I would rather see that instead of killing the baby. It is a shame that there are women that would do anything to carry a child and then you have women that kill theirs just because they dont want it anymore.


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## Randy (May 26, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Randy,
> I GLADLY would, TODAY as a matter of fact.
> The 'wait list' for adoptive parents is ridiculous.  2-7 years in most cases which is why hopeful parents are flying all over the world to adopt foreign kids with many times NO health records.  Adoption is such a simple solution to ANY unwanted pregnancy for the mother who doesn't want to be 'inconvenienced' by raising a child.  The least I would think someone could do is give the kid life and a loving home.  They can just walk away.  I almost lost my lunch the day I heard the father of a pregnant teen tell me he'd rather his daughter have an abortion than put the child up for adoption?!?!  How in the world do you combat 'logic' like that???
> I guess adoption just makes too much sense.  Believe me Randy, you would NOT have to take on the responsibility.  THOUSANDS of waiting, loving, capable, hopeful, parents are PRAYING for the opportunity.



I had no idea.  I can see three or four out my office window right now that need adopting.  Why are there so many that need adopting if there are so many waiting?


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## Spotlite (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> I had no idea.  I can see three or four out my office window right now that need adopting.  Why are there so many that need adopting if there are so many waiting?


Government and the so called Child Welfare System we have


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## GeauxLSU (May 26, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> What a difference it would be if they could remove the baby intact and put it in another woman's body...!!!  I'll bet they are able to do this someday....


Dixie,
You are absolutely correct they probably will.  And you know what, I bet it won't reduce abortions by more than 1% if the procedure is ONE MINUTE more 'inconvenient' than an abortion.  Plus, some women just don't want ANYONE to know they are pregnant, so giving the baby to another surrogate mom would prevent that.  I think SOME women are under the illusion that the world thinks (or cares) they are virgins.  So much of an illusion they will kill a child to protect their dillusional virtue.  Sad.  Yes that's a harsh statement but I'd venture to say we all know it's true, again for SOME.  
Like I have said, personally, if the mother's health is in danger, which DOES happen and IS unavoidable even with C-sections etc..., then to me, it's self defense and not murder and not a sin.   
ANYTHING else is a matter of convenience.  Yes rape and incest is horrible (which again, is only approx 1% of abortions).  But again, the harsh reality is, I'm not sure why the method of conception changes the value of the life.  Is a child who was conceived out of wedlock less valuable?  Should they also be killed to hide the sin?   Yes, it's a matter of two comitting a sin vs one in the other example but again, not sure that matters to the unborn.  He/she just wants to live.


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## GeauxLSU (May 26, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> I had no idea.  I can see three or four out my office window right now that need adopting.  Why are there so many that need adopting if there are so many waiting?


You are not looking at kids that need adopting.  You are looking at a paycheck.   If their parents want to give up their government paycheck, I will adopt all 4 of those kids today.  
Do a little research on adopting and you will quickly find out what an incredibly difficult, time consuming, expensive, process it is.  For example, as a parent already, if I want to adopt a child, I need to take a STATE produced and administered 'class' and 'test' to adopt.   Can you imagine?  The STATE is going to test me on my ability to parent.  In principle I agree, but it's just an example of what a joke the adoption process is.  How about they give that test to the parents of the 4 kids you are looking at right now.  Think they'd pass?


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## SBG (May 26, 2006)

FESTUSHAGGIN said:
			
		

> if a girl is raped,  yes i think she should have the choice to get an abbortion.
> 
> if my wife is in danger if she gives birth, yes i think abbortion is ok.
> 
> i feel that people use abortion as a means of birth control, and in this type situation i am very much against abortion.  but as i have stated there are exceptions.



Lord God help us.


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## AAADawg (May 26, 2006)

Would you legally allow a dr. to perform an abortion in the first trimster if there was 99.99% chance that the mother would die before the fetus went to full term and the condition that caused this wasnt found until after the mother, lets say a 28 year old college graduate who had been married and faithful for 5 years and who had waited to get pregnant until her and her husband were financially able to raise a child and they knew pretty well that the mariiage was actually going to make it, became pregnant?


What if the woman in question were your daughter?


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## bigbird1 (May 26, 2006)

AAADawg said:
			
		

> Would you legally allow a dr. to perform an abortion in the first trimster if there was 99.99% chance that the mother would die before the fetus went to full term and the condition that caused this wasnt found until after the mother, lets say a 28 year old college graduate who had been married and faithful for 5 years and who had waited to get pregnant until her and her husband were financially able to raise a child and they knew pretty well that the mariiage was actually going to make it, became pregnant?
> 
> 
> What if the woman in question were your daughter?




It'll be in GODS hands,his will,his way and the only way!
Are you willing to stand before GOD one day and answer to him on why you killled one his own.I'm not.


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## AAADawg (May 26, 2006)

bigbird1 said:
			
		

> It'll be in GODS hands,his will,his way and the only way!
> Are you willing to stand before GOD one day and answer to him on why you killled one his own.I'm not.




How do you know it isnt Gods will that the Doctor save your daughters life? After all, it was apparently Gods will that the Doctor recieved the education and the equipment was invented to diagnose her condition which was also Gods will. Maybe it is Gods will to allow you to decide if your daughter and her baby both die or only the baby which in our scenario is an almostmedical certainity not to make it to term. Are you willing to Stand before god and explain why you decided to let 2 of his own die when you had the opportunity to save one?


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## bigbird1 (May 26, 2006)

Imo ,if she got pregnant in the the first place it must of been gods will,I believe god has a plan for everyone weather we choose to believe it or not.I personally seen two cases in which the doctors suggested aborting the pregency over medical issue,by the grace of god and faith in him the couple decided against it and  both of them have healthy kids today with no medical issue.I know this is a sensitive subject,but taking a fetus from the womb is not just taking a fetus it's taking a human life, either way you look at it ,it's murder.


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## Double Barrel BB (May 27, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Randy,
> I GLADLY would, TODAY as a matter of fact.
> The 'wait list' for adoptive parents is ridiculous. 2-7 years in most cases which is why hopeful parents are flying all over the world to adopt foreign kids with many times NO health records. Adoption is such a simple solution to ANY unwanted pregnancy for the mother who doesn't want to be 'inconvenienced' by raising a child. The least I would think someone could do is give the kid life and a loving home. They can just walk away. I almost lost my lunch the day I heard the father of a pregnant teen tell me he'd rather his daughter have an abortion than put the child up for adoption?!?! How in the world do you combat 'logic' like that???
> I guess adoption just makes too much sense. Believe me Randy, you would NOT have to take on the responsibility. THOUSANDS of waiting, loving, capable, hopeful, parents are PRAYING for the opportunity.


 
AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## AAADawg (May 31, 2006)

bigbird1 said:
			
		

> Imo ,if she got pregnant in the the first place it must of been gods will,I believe god has a plan for everyone weather we choose to believe it or not.I personally seen two cases in which the doctors suggested aborting the pregency over medical issue,by the grace of god and faith in him the couple decided against it and  both of them have healthy kids today with no medical issue.I know this is a sensitive subject,but taking a fetus from the womb is not just taking a fetus it's taking a human life, either way you look at it ,it's murder.




I understand that you think that life begins at conception but that does not answer the question of how do you know it wasnt Gods will that the daughter in our hypothetical situation get pregnant so that her disease could be discovered, cured, and then her go on to live and maybe cure diabetes or something???? My point is this...it isnt any of mine or yours business what this woman decides in this scenarion....it may be that she has been touched by God and knows that an abortion is the path he has chosen for her...how would you and I know? I find the idea of aborting a baby when there are people willing to raise a child in a loving home deplorable...I would never do it myself because it goes against my grain...but I am a man, I will never face that decision...and that decision ultimately rests with the preganant woman no matter what the law says...if she truly does not want to have her child then she can kill herself and the child and the state cant prevent it. I applaud your decsision tobe against abortion...I am too...but only for myself...I have no say in the lives of others.......


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## matthewsman (May 31, 2006)

*AAA,the title was "for Christians only"*

Maybe you missed that part

If you have converted and that is your reply well,,,,"Praise the Lord!!!"


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## GeauxLSU (May 31, 2006)

*Expected unfortunately.*



			
				matthewsman said:
			
		

> Maybe you missed that part
> 
> If you have converted and that is your reply well,,,,"Praise the Lord!!!"


Yes it is for Christians only and there is a reason for that.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 1, 2006)

Abortion is today's Holocaust.

Imagine what these Babies would say if they could speak to us.

I would hate to know that I was a doctor that was committing these murderous acts and then had to explain to God at the White Throne of Judgement about why I did these horendous things.

DB BB


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## Mechanicaldawg (Jun 1, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> Abortion is today's Holocaust.



It's 3 times worse than the Holocaust at last count.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 1, 2006)

Jeff Young said:
			
		

> It's 3 times worse than the Holocaust at last count.


Just since this thread started, there have been almost 29,000 murdered infants in the United States.  That's right, THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED EVERY SINGLE DAY!  2.5 every sinlge minute!  Just realize, in the time it took you to read this one message, yet another baby was killed!  The ONLY thing this country should feel ashamed about...


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## Spotlite (Jun 1, 2006)

Thats sad. And even sadder, there are actually people that see no problem with it.


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## SBG (Jun 1, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Thats sad. And even sadder, there are actually people that see no problem with it.



And even sadder than that...some of those even have the audacity to call themselves a Christian.


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## Spotlite (Jun 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> And even sadder than that...some of those even have the audacity to call themselves a Christian.


True, very true but you and I know just because they call them self a Christian does not make them a Christian. Wished they could see that.


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## Madsnooker (Jun 1, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Randy,
> I GLADLY would, TODAY as a matter of fact.
> The 'wait list' for adoptive parents is ridiculous.  2-7 years in most cases which is why hopeful parents are flying all over the world to adopt foreign kids with many times NO health records.  Adoption is such a simple solution to ANY unwanted pregnancy for the mother who doesn't want to be 'inconvenienced' by raising a child.  The least I would think someone could do is give the kid life and a loving home.  They can just walk away.  I almost lost my lunch the day I heard the father of a pregnant teen tell me he'd rather his daughter have an abortion than put the child up for adoption?!?!  How in the world do you combat 'logic' like that???
> I guess adoption just makes too much sense.  Believe me Randy, you would NOT have to take on the responsibility.  THOUSANDS of waiting, loving, capable, hopeful, parents are PRAYING for the opportunity.



That is absolutely correct. My brother and his wife just got back from Japan adopting a 7 year old boy that was born and left for dead. He was rescued and has been raised at a some type of refugee camp. It was a long process and cost them about 30K. They had to go over and stay 2 weeks and go thru a process before the government would let them take the child. It is amazing how fast this child is learning.

I have no doubt he will grow up and be a very productive member of society. What a shame if he would have been aborted.


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 1, 2006)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> That is absolutely correct. My brother and his wife just got back from Japan adopting a 7 year old boy that was born and left for dead. He was rescued and has been raised at a some type of refugee camp. It was a long process and cost them about 30K. They had to go over and stay 2 weeks and go thru a process before the government would let them take the child. It is amazing how fast this child is learning.
> 
> I have no doubt he will grow up and be a very productive member of society. What a shame if he would have been aborted.


A common story repeated countless times a year in the U.S. becaue THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED babies are aborted EVERY SINGLE DAY instead of given life in a happy desperately waiting home!


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## Madsnooker (Jun 2, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> A common story repeated countless times a year in the U.S. becaue THREE THOUSAND SIX HUNDRED babies are aborted EVERY SINGLE DAY instead of given life in a happy desperately waiting home!



So true.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 2, 2006)

There are alot of families in the U.S.A. that would give just about anything to be able to have a kid or 2 or 3 or more. Like me and my wife, but cannot afford to go overseas to adopt. I think the most inexpensive one that we have found was $10,000. With so many kids in the U.S.A. that need parents, you would think it would be very easy to get a kid.

Over 500,000 kids right now are in foster care.

Did anyone else see the PrimeTime Special last night on ABC? It was about the foster care system....They are supposed to continue it on 20/20 tonight. I usually do not cry very easily but I am not ashamed to admit that the episode last night had the tears just rolling....

They had one kid on there that was so neglected, that he was acting like the family dog.

What is really truely sad is that those children that have been abused, neglected, or otherwise hurt still wanted to be with their parents.

DB BB


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## SBG (Jun 2, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> There are alot of families in the U.S.A. that would give just about anything to be able to have a kid or 2 or 3 or more. Like me and my wife, but cannot afford to go overseas to adopt. I think the most inexpensive one that we have found was $10,000. With so many kids in the U.S.A. that need parents, you would think it would be very easy to get a kid.



I'm still praying for your situation. 

It seems that with all of the folks that are wanting to adopt children, and with all of the "mothers" out there killing their babies, a system could be established to allow the two to get together and work out a financial arrangement for adoption. 

If a person is willing to spend $25,000 to adopt a kid from China, shouldn't/couldn't they be matched with a woman that is considering abortion and pay her instead?


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## Derek (Jun 2, 2006)

Abortion is nothing but murder.......Also, guys think about who you vote for in every election and how they stand on this issue........you might just have these babies blood on your hands as well!!!


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## dixie (Jun 2, 2006)

Life is GOD's most precious gift to us, it sickens me to see how man's abused this gift.


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## matthewsman (Jun 2, 2006)

*I see your point,here's my take on the differencel*



			
				Woodswalker said:
			
		

> how can there be orphan's homes in this country??
> 
> my question:  Is there greater market value associated with younger adoptable children, than older adoptable children?
> 
> Why are they necessary??



There is a difference in bringing older children into your home..I would take a child of about any age or sex if it were just me and my wife.I wouldn't now as my son is too young to defend himself,if something untoward were to take place from a child older than him.

We have friends that provide foster care to several older9-14 year old children.These are "normal"not special needs type kids.Because of their past expieriences and need for love,some of them act out in unexpected ways,physicaly and emotionally.... 

I would care for pre-schooler and toddlers up to 6 yrs or so(our son is 8)just to protect him..

I would be interested in the percentage of the children in facilities like you mention,that were there since birth,rather than being placed in there later due to family circumstances....


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## Flintlock1776 (Jun 2, 2006)

*In the Majority*

Gald to see I ain't alone on this


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## GeauxLSU (Jun 2, 2006)

I assure you, there are no healthy infants in 'orphanages' in the United States.  Does that answer your question?  
Yes, there is a 'market' difference in infants and older children.   Harsh reality.  Most non adopted kids (of any age) have either physical or mental problems, generally both.  Very sad and is really a gut check on yourself when you come to the stark realization of your own limitations to provide a child a home.....


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## dixie (Jun 2, 2006)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> i've kind of held off posting here because the emotions and sensitivities are intense. i think we can all agree to that.
> 
> in a more perfected world, surely we'd all be engaged in more detailed arguments about what to do next.
> 
> ...


Woods, I don't know for sure, maybe some of the LEO's here could answer that. I've heard those kids come from either parents or homes in distress and that some of them are just abandoned by their folks. Mostly older kids in this type home and yes, most parents want a baby they can raise as thier own. A freind of mine and his wife are adopting and we've talked to them a good bit about all this.


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## AAADawg (Jun 6, 2006)

matthewsman said:
			
		

> Maybe you missed that part
> 
> If you have converted and that is your reply well,,,,"Praise the Lord!!!"




The title line had no such disclaimer....it was in the original posts message body, not the title line. I had already voted because the poll came before the first post. Sorry for interfering on a public message board......


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## Madsnooker (Jun 7, 2006)

As far as my Brother, they were originally trying to adopt an infant. After comming across "Kia", which is 7 years old and was in an orphanage in Japan after his was abandoned after birth, they decided to adopt him.


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## AAADawg (Jun 7, 2006)

I am genuinely curious...some of ya'll that have or are trying to adopt is it possible that if every aborted child in this country could find a family looking to adopt? If there are 3600 abortions a day in this country...Im not disputing that numebr...that would mean that over 1.25 million babies a year would need adopted families....is there that many people looking to adopt kids? My wife and I have thought about either adopting or taking in some foster kids but we have no idea what the situation is like. 1.25 million more adoptions a year sounds like a lot to me...is it possible to find that many people looking to adopt and is it possible to sustain that number over a period of years...it seems logical that the number of prospective adoptive parents would decline as more and more people became adoptive parents because there is only so many kids one couple can raise.....I aint debating anything Im just curious if some of yall with some expereince with the process has ever thought about this or seen any studies regarding it.....


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 8, 2006)

I know one thing my wife and I would adopt as many as the Lord would give us. He will provide a way...

DB BB


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## Spotlite (Jun 8, 2006)

AAADawg said:
			
		

> My wife and I have thought about either adopting or taking in some foster kids but we have no idea what the situation is like.


Not sure on adoption, never attempted that. Did take three as a Foster parent to keep the state from splitting them up seperate, a 14 year old, 5 year old and 1 year. I knew the family and at start they were split into different homes. We had to have a background check, drug test, home inspection and no criminal record. Once you get them, the state tells you what you can do with the children as far as camping and such. We had to let them know everytime we went somewhere away from town. They stress the fact to you, you are basically babysitting the states children. And that is fine, just be prepared to go through that and be willinng to give up some things because they have to have parent visits and such and the state makes sure their doctors appts. are kept also. Thankfully, the family is back together now with their mother and that is the goal for foster parenting in most cases. To me the hardest part is these kids become a part of your everyday life and at some point you have to let them go. Small younger children that gets use to you, well it breaks your heart when they leave but at the same time its rejoicing to see them reunited where they belong. I may do it again down the road, but right now I have a 9 yr old and an 8 yr old that keep me busy. But if I know of a case or hear about one where the children are split up, I will do what I can to keep those together.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 8, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> We had to have a background check, drug test, home inspection and no criminal record. Once you get them, the state tells you what you can do with the children as far as camping and such. We had to let them know everytime we went somewhere away from town. They stress the fact to you, you are basically babysitting the states children. And that is fine, just be prepared to go through that and be willinng to give up some things because they have to have parent visits and such and the state makes sure their doctors appts. are kept also. Thankfully, the family is back together now with their mother and that is the goal for foster parenting in most cases. To me the hardest part is these kids become a part of your everyday life and at some point you have to let them go. Small younger children that gets use to you, well it breaks your heart when they leave but at the same time its rejoicing to see them reunited where they belong. I may do it again down the road, but right now I have a 9 yr old and an 8 yr old that keep me busy. But if I know of a case or hear about one where the children are split up, I will do what I can to keep those together.



Spotty,

I know exactly what you mean, me and my wife went through all that red tape(don't get me wrong it is all needed to weed out the potentially bad foster parents), we even had to go to classes for almost 3 months to learn what to do when you come into certain situations, and how to displine the child(since you can not spank them).  

We have a child in our home right now, and it has changed our lives. We knew it would, but I guess you never expect it to change so much. Don't get me wrong I enjoy what we are doing in keeping him safe and hopefully teaching him and showing him the right kind of attention and love.

Think about this AAA, you as a foster parent or adoptive parent has to take the brunt of all the bad stuff that has happen to these kids. It is a hard road to travel. Esspecially when the children look at you and say they hate you or they want to kill you. Been there done that, and did not want to buy the T-Shirt.

Around 581,000 kids in Foster care today in the USA. It is very sad.

DB BB


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## Hogtown (Jun 13, 2006)

I am opposed to abortion under any circumstance.  Having said that, I do not believe saving the mothers life while losing the childs life is an abortion anymore than I believe that it is murder when the child lives and the mother dies.  Medical complications occur - that is part of life. Abortion, at least to my mind, is when a healthy female chooses to terminate a pregnancy.


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