# How many true believers?



## Four (Oct 17, 2012)

*WARNING: DO NOT DO ANY OF THAT MENTIONED, YOU WILL HARM YOURSELF OR DIE, THIS IS SATIRE*







*WARNING: DO NOT DO ANY OF THAT MENTIONED, YOU WILL HARM YOURSELF OR DIE, THIS IS SATIRE*


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2012)

I don't see how A Christian can pick the other parts out and not do the poisin/snake part. I don't believe the Bible is without error as it was written by man. There are just too many variations of manuscripts, versions, etc. Most Christians don't agree with me on this topic but some do.
Quote below:

Question: "Should Mark 16:9-20 be in the Bible?"

Answer: Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because they were copied from the original autographs (i.e., they are copies of the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 17, 2012)

We've covered this before, but most Christians believe all of these gifts (not just the snake/poison part) passed away with the death of the apostles.


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## Four (Oct 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> We've covered this before, but most Christians believe all of these gifts (not just the snake/poison part) passed away with the death of the apostles.



Were does this believe derive from (besides just straight not wanting to get bit by snakes, etc)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> We've covered this before, but most Christians believe all of these gifts (not just the snake/poison part) passed away with the death of the apostles.



So most Christians don't believe that with the power of God working through them that some Christians can heal people or perform exorcisms on people possessed with demons?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 17, 2012)

Four said:


> Were does this believe derive from (besides just straight not wanting to get bit by snakes, etc)



From the almost complete absence of it from the ante- and post-Nicean writings.

The gifts had a purpose:  to confirm the message preached by the apostles.  They served that purpose well.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> So most Christians don't believe that with the power of God working through them that some Christians can heal people or perform exorcisms on people possessed with demons?




Most Christians don't believe in this:


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## joey1919 (Oct 17, 2012)

maybe this was figurative speach, there's a lot of that in the bible. maybe it wasn't supposed to be in there after all.

and this is a serious question, i'm not trying to be sarcastic. i've never had the oppertinity to ask anyone who is athiest... why would you care what christians believe


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## TripleXBullies (Oct 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> most christians don't believe in this:





that was great!


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## Four (Oct 17, 2012)

joey1919 said:


> i've never had the oppertinity to ask anyone who is athiest... why would you care what christians believe



This post was admittedly more about poking fun than about real discussion.. (hey its been slow here)

That being said i do have a couple reasons why i would care.

1. They teach these things to children... I think teaching children to be religious is generally doing them a disservice, and i have to live in the world with these people. For example, if you taught your child this verse, the might go out and drink poison to prove themselves... or more realistically, you might teach your child that god created the earth in 7 days and the earth is only 6,000 years old, which fosters distrust of science and the scientific community, which can over time hurt the movement of knowledge. I also really loath the idea of original / inherited sin... i think it gives many children a complex.

2. Many people act on what they believe.... those actions can affect me. see jihads, crusades, abortion clinic bombings, honor killings, etc. Beliefs can be quite powerful...


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## JB0704 (Oct 17, 2012)

Four said:


> 1. They teach these things to children... I think teaching children to be religious is generally doing them a disservice, and i have to live in the world with these people. For example, if you taught your child this verse, the might go out and drink poison to prove themselves... or more realistically, you might teach your child that god created the earth in 7 days and the earth is only 6,000 years old, which fosters distrust of science and the scientific community, which can over time hurt the movement of knowledge. I also really loath the idea of original / inherited sin... i think it gives many children a complex.




A lot there.....but Christians/believers would counter that not presenting faith would be a disservice, for obvious reasons.



Four said:


> 2. Many people act on what they believe.... those actions can affect me. see jihads, crusades, abortion clinic bombings, honor killings, etc. Beliefs can be quite powerful...



When weilded by idiots (see your excample and Benny Hinn), they are destructive.  When taken as intended (I know, another debate all-together), they are a positive.


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## Four (Oct 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> A lot there.....but Christians/believers would counter that not presenting faith would be a disservice, for obvious reasons.



I understand completely... if I_"Knew"_ that there existed an afterlife and a person has to do X, Y, & Z i would make darn sure my child was shown



JB0704 said:


> When weilded by idiots (see your excample and Benny Hinn), they are destructive.  When taken as intended (I know, another debate all-together), they are a positive.



No real objective way to know which was was intended... i wish it was  a little more clear... I much prefer what i call the benign religious people.


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## joey1919 (Oct 17, 2012)

Four said:


> This post was admittedly more about poking fun than about real discussion.. (hey its been slow here)
> 
> That being said i do have a couple reasons why i would care.
> 
> ...



yeah the children drinkinpoison thing is a little far fetched, and honestly i do distrust a great deal of science, it has nothing to do with religion, but the fact that science is very often just wrong. the world was once flat and the moon was made of cheese, those are extreme examples but you get the point. i also believe that science is often used to promote ones own social or political agenda. its been done for thousands of years. Hitlers science and scientists "proved" some things that did a whole lot of bad.

and yes terrible things have been done in the name of religion. but terrrible things have been done that had nothing to do with religion, some people are crazy and will use whatever to justify they're actions, sometimes that happens to be religion. seems similar to addicts to me. some people are just addicts and will always be, doesn't matter the substance.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 17, 2012)

Up to this point in my life I'm not aware of drinking poison.

.


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## formula1 (Oct 17, 2012)

*Re:*

I drank a lot of poison in days past(Jack Daniels, Quervo, and the like) and I'm still alive and kickin'.  I'd say the gifts are active and the word of God has proven true! But thats just for me!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Most Christians don't believe in this:



Neither do I. He is a Fake Healer. I believe in the power of faith and casting out demons. If someone can do this it is God giving them the power to do it. They won't be in tents or on tv. They won't be doing it for money.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 17, 2012)

I, too, believe that was meant for the apostles, not us, well not most of us. Maybe in other 'terms' it was meant for us. More spiritual than physical maybe...I dunno.

I don't know about Benny Hinn, I think he seems fake, but that is not my call. I do believe in divine healing, and I believe that doctors and scientists hold that gift whether they understand it or acknowledge it. I believe all wisdom to accomplish that is given by God as a gift.

I have witnessed people speaking in tongues and believe that they weren't faking...then I've heard others who seem to be faking it.  I've never done it but would like to experience that.

Snake handling...well...whatever...if that's your thing, go for it. 

For me, just changing and not being the wild woman I used to be, seems amazing to many of my old buddies, they believe it's a miracle....and it is, even to me. I never thought...


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## mtnwoman (Oct 17, 2012)

formula1 said:


> I drank a lot of poison in days past(Jack Daniels, Quervo, and the like) and I'm still alive and kickin'.  I'd say the gifts are active and the word of God has proven true! But thats just for me!



I know dat's right. It's a miracle that I'm alive even. And I certainly speak in different 'tongues' than I used to. Lordy I used to curse like a drunk sailor...lol...and I probably could make even the sailor blush....eeeeeek!


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 17, 2012)

Four said:


> This post was admittedly more about poking fun than about real discussion.. (hey its been slow here)
> 
> That being said i do have a couple reasons why i would care.
> 
> ...


Yep, been mighty slow around here. Everybody must be hunting


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I, too, believe that was meant for the apostles, not us, well not most of us. Maybe in other 'terms' it was meant for us. More spiritual than physical maybe...I dunno.
> 
> I don't know about Benny Hinn, I think he seems fake, but that is not my call. I do believe in divine healing, and I believe that doctors and scientists hold that gift whether they understand it or acknowledge it. I believe all wisdom to accomplish that is given by God as a gift.
> 
> ...



I've seen some stuff in Holiness Baptist campground meetings that looked real to me. I too know that people fake it to fit it. Maybe it's just a trance or something. I think people can still perform miracles.
As for snakes, that verse doesn't say they have to be poisonous does it?


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## outdooraddict (Oct 17, 2012)

Four said:


> This post was admittedly more about poking fun than about real discussion.. (hey its been slow here)
> 
> That being said i do have a couple reasons why i would care.
> 
> ...


*
Yes they can, ask  Stalin, Hitler*,
Nietchze ("The story I have to tell is the history of the next two centuries... For a long time now our whole civilization has been driving, with a tortured intensity growing from decade to decade, as if towards a catastrophe: restlessly, violently, tempestuously, like a mighty river desiring the end of its journey, without pausing to reflect, indeed fearful of reflection... Where we live, soon nobody will be able to exist. There will be wars such as have never been waged on earth..I foresee something terrible, Chaos everywhere. Nothing left which is of any value; nothing which commands: Thou shalt!")
 the *existential nihilists * ("Might makes Right-The only basis for morality is by force. Morals, whether derived from logic or not, cannot be enforced without force. If an individual feels that murder is wrong, then that is his own morals, but that does not stop someone else from murdering. ), 
*Atheism* (atheist philosopher Michael Ruse-"In the past, evolution—Darwinian selection—has been used to legitimize some dreadful political and moral for want of a better word views. Hitler is open about his social Darwinism in his Mein Kampf. Others have done the same. However, being disturbed is not to say that one should not take seriously the possible connection, because people have done bad things in its name.")

Yes people use religion inappropriately to hurt, but they appropriately use evolutionary principles to hurt. Be more afraid of those without religion (specifically christianity) they and their children violate nothing when they kill.


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## outdooraddict (Oct 18, 2012)

So indeed, be careful what you teach the children


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## bullethead (Oct 18, 2012)

Those along with Religion are great examples of how adults and children can be indoctrinated and persuaded into believing in the unbelievable and doing the unthinkable. Difference is one is still around and thriving.


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## outdooraddict (Oct 18, 2012)

The problem of course is continuing to discuss religion as if they are all one, which obviously they aren't. One tries to lump the submissive love thy neighbor philosophy of christianity in with other religions. 
Second you try to equate violating Christian principles with claiming its christian doctrine, you would do better to tell christians and their children that they need to do a better job of following christianity, not claim christianity teaches violence, that's obviously a false claim. 

Third, I completely then agree with you that some religions are violent, and some are not but none the less some people have exploited certain religious faiths for their own purposes.

"Let us have faith that right makes might, and in that faith, let us, to the end, dare to do our duty as we understand it“    Abraham Lincoln


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## outdooraddict (Oct 18, 2012)

review atheist philospher Michael Ruse and his  "he makes me embarassed to be an atheist" feelings over fellow atheist Richard Dawkins. The atheists are having a very hard time with morals so lets not pretend its a problem just for religion


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## Four (Oct 18, 2012)

outdooraddict said:


> review atheist philospher Michael Ruse and his  "he makes me embarassed to be an atheist" feelings over fellow atheist Richard Dawkins. The atheists are having a very hard time with morals so lets not pretend its a problem for religion



You're really getting spin up over this aren't you?

I was asked why i should care about someone else s beliefs, i gave a couple examples..

You seemed to agree with my position, giving examples of dangerous non-religious beliefs.. 5 posts later...


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## outdooraddict (Oct 18, 2012)

Four said:


> You're really getting spin up over this aren't you?
> 
> I was asked why i should care about someone else s beliefs, i gave a couple examples..
> 
> You seemed to agree with my position, giving examples of dangerous non-religious beliefs.. 5 posts later...



I DO agree with what your saying, at least until you make far too general a claim "I think teaching children to be religious is generally doing them a disservice". Although I tuned in late to this debate, I didn't want what seems an otherwise rational point you make to slip into false generalities. Your examples in 2. all seem to be taken from religious extremist examples and I noticed you didn't refer to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc  so I'm just trying to help keep us out of the same tired "all religions are the same, its religious thought that causes evil" narrative. Glad we are in agreement and that you unintentionally left out "non religious" examples.


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## TripleXBullies (Oct 19, 2012)

I don't think he was referring to religions. He was referring to indoctrination being an effective tool at making people believe things nearly, at least, whole heartedly. There were PLENTY of Germans who believed that Hitler was doing good.


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## stringmusic (Oct 19, 2012)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't think he was referring to religions.


I have to disagree.


Four said:


> This post was admittedly more about poking fun than about real discussion.. (hey its been slow here)
> 
> That being said i do have a couple reasons why i would care.
> 
> ...


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## Four (Oct 19, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I have to disagree.



I obviously was using a religion as an example, but the question i was answering was "why should you care what people believe"


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## StriperAddict (Oct 19, 2012)

Four said:


> I obviously was using a religion as an example, but the question i was answering was "why should you care what people believe"


 
Please keep in mind that we are caring because of an eternal perspective, wether the one believes in heaven or not.


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## Four (Oct 19, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Please keep in mind that we are caring because of an eternal perspective, wether the one believes in heaven or not.



That makes me wonder, what's your position on the heaven/h3ll aspect?

If someone never hears "the word" can they still go to heaven? do they go to h3ll?

Do all atheists / non-Christians go to h3ll?

Is it possible for a person to be unconvinced of your religion but still get the benefit of an afterlife?

Do infants go to h3ll? Heaven? What about a fetus?


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## stringmusic (Oct 19, 2012)

Four said:


> I obviously was using a religion as an example, but the question i was answering was "why should you care what people believe"



I understand, but Triple X indicated that you weren't talking about religions at all.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 19, 2012)

Four said:


> That makes me wonder, what's your position on the heaven/h3ll aspect?
> 
> If someone never hears "the word" can they still go to heaven? do they go to h3ll?
> 
> ...


 
You gave me a lot to chew on, and I may not get to it all, or try and put a few of these together.  

Let me start by saying I was once annoyed by bible thumpers trying to push the word down my throat. Some came across somewhat caring, some not so.  But there was just a time where heaven and h3ll made sence, and I knew that it was only Christ who could get me out of my sinner's ditch.  And it was an old neighborhood friend who was a big catalyst in my belief when it all started. He and I lost our friendship over some silly stuff, he left town for 2 yrs, and when he came back I noticed the change right away.  When he asked if he could talk bible with me, our lost friendship was redeemed, and later after our talk I accepted God's plan of attack about my sin and lost soul.  The cross was that loving act most of all that won my heart.

Heaven & h3ll can be trickey subjects as far as the overall message of the love of God. I can't say I have any "human" answers that would make it gell. But scripture is clear on the matter.

As far as children, there's a scripture that talks about them always beholding the face of the Father. I may be quoting it off, but to me their "innocence" in matters of bible get trumped out of the love heaven has for children. And "to such is the Kingdom of God".

I'll get back on the rest, unless one comes along with postings that speak to your questions and I amen it or not!

Good stuff.
BBL


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## TripleXBullies (Oct 20, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Those along with Religion are great examples of how adults and children can be indoctrinated and persuaded into believing in the unbelievable and doing the unthinkable. Difference is one is still around and thriving.



Sorry, I was referring to this not just being about religions. Anything can be indoctrinated.


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2012)

TripleXBullies said:


> Sorry, I was referring to this not just being about religions. Anything can be indoctrinated.



Very true and in many of the cases if it is not a religion doing the indoctrination, religion is used to help in the other examples. "Gott Mit Uns" was a popular phrase muttered by Hitler and it was inscribed on many a Nazi belt buckle and button.


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## HucK Finn (Oct 30, 2012)

Four said:


> That makes me wonder, what's your position on the heaven/h3ll aspect?
> 
> If someone never hears "the word" can they still go to heaven? do they go to h3ll?
> 
> ...



This has alway been my internal conflict, what about the good people that do no harm and live a peaceful existance, but they are caught by a technicality. That is that, even though they have live a life that was reletively without sin they are cast to hel, just because they did not utter the words... "I accept Jesus Christ as my Lord and saviour".... to me that just seems unreasonable, and I would have to assume that the creator would see this too. 
It is also my understanding that the bible is the word of God and should be followed without any devation or question, so in order to be a Christian you must accept that EVERYBODY that has ever existed in the history of mankind would go to hel, even if the lived a completely sinless life... seems to me that there are WAY more souls in hel than Heaven. 
Also think of it in reverse... I could lie cheat steal and murder a 1,000 people but yet all I have to do is be convienced that Jesus is the one and true God... and boom I get a pass to a rewarding afterlife. 
This notion just seems crazy, and please by all means someone interject if I am missing something.

Do not get me wrong, I am forced to believe that there is some type of creator, but I refuese to believe that the bible is the true word of said creator. Why would man have the inheriant ability of reason... if it is to only accept what we are told without question?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 31, 2012)

HucK Finn said:


> I could lie cheat steal and murder a 1,000 people but yet all I have to do is be convienced that Jesus is the one and true God... and boom I get a pass to a rewarding afterlife.
> This notion just seems crazy, and please by all means someone interject if I am missing something.



It is crazy, and you are missing a lot.  Read Matthew 7:21-23.


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## stringmusic (Oct 31, 2012)

HucK Finn said:


> Why would man have the inheriant ability of reason... if it is to only accept what we are told without question?



Who said you had to accept anything without question?


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## wyndsurfr (Nov 7, 2012)

Old thread I know, but something to add here that I didn't see mentioned before.  I think it was hinted at though...

If christians believe that their bible is the word of their god, then why don't they follow it?  I mean either it's the word of god, or it's just a book written by some folks a long time ago with some good (and bad) lessons.

My point is if the book is the straight word of god, then read it through and go act on it.  Better start killing 'loose' women and any gay people you run across...  Most of that stuff is in Leviticus, but hey, it's in the bible right?  the bible is the word of god right?  

that's what I don't really understand about the christian religion.  If the bible is the word of god, then how can a lowly man such as one of us presume to interpret it any differently than how it is clearly stated. 

I am NOT an athiest, however I do NOT believe that the bible is anything but a book, albeit very old.  My "issue" with christianity comes from the vanity of most christians thinking they can somehow interpret what a greater power has on it's "mind".  Such as Preachers, I see that as vanity, thinking that somehow God (yeah I capitalized it that time) needs them to get in between Him and His children.  God can speak to us just fine and He doesn't need a bible, or a guy with sweaty hands taking what we worked for to interpret His plans.

Both of those are related to me, the vanity issue of thinking that somehow you or your preacher can do a better job at something than your God...  The God that I know doesn't need a building, He built the earth.  The God that i know doesn't need a book either.  He doesn't need men to do anything on this earth except take care of it and each other...  we haven't been doing a very good job at that ;-)    opinions?


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## stringmusic (Nov 7, 2012)

wyndsurfr said:


> My point is if the book is the straight word of god, then read it through and go act on it.  Better start killing 'loose' women and any gay people you run across...  Most of that stuff is in Leviticus, but hey, it's in the bible right?  the bible is the word of god right?


It is the word of God, including Leviticus, but Christians are now bound by a new convenant, and many laws in the OT have been done away with. This is spread throughout the new testament, read the book of Hebrews for a start on this issue.  



> that's what I don't really understand about the christian religion.  If the bible is the word of god, then how can a lowly man such as one of us presume to interpret it any differently than how it is clearly stated.


The Holy Spirit. Also, there is context, it is important to remember who, what and when something is being said, and what for reason it is being said. Some things are interpreted differently by different people and that is ok, as long as the foundational doctrine of Christianity remains intact, this is where the Holy Spirit guides a Christian.



> I am NOT an athiest, however I do NOT believe that the bible is anything but a book, albeit very old.  My "issue" with christianity comes from the vanity of most christians thinking they can somehow interpret what a greater power has on it's "mind".  Such as Preachers, I see that as vanity, thinking that somehow God (yeah I capitalized it that time) needs them to get in between Him and His children.  God can speak to us just fine and He doesn't need a bible, or a guy with sweaty hands taking what we worked for to interpret His plans.


How do you know God doesn't use the Bible to communicate?



> Both of those are related to me, the vanity issue of thinking that somehow you or your preacher can do a better job at something than your God...


I don't think many Christians, especially on this forum, thinks they can do anything better than God.



> The God that I know doesn't need a building, He built the earth.  The God that i know doesn't need a book either.


Who is the God that you know, and how did you find out about him?



> He doesn't need men to do anything on this earth except take care of it and each other...  we haven't been doing a very good job at that ;-)    opinions?



So, he doesn't need a book, but he needs us to take care of the earth and each other? Your God needs?

One other quick question, how do you know your God is a "he"?

Thanks for joining the conversation!


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2012)

wyndsurfr said:


> If christians believe that their bible is the word of their god, then why don't they follow it?  I mean either it's the word of god, or it's just a book written by some folks a long time ago with some good (and bad) lessons.
> 
> My point is if the book is the straight word of god, then read it through and go act on it.  Better start killing 'loose' women and any gay people you run across...  Most of that stuff is in Leviticus, but hey, it's in the bible right?  the bible is the word of god right?



Christians are not called to kill gays and "loose women".  Read John 8:1-11 to see how Jesus treated a "loose woman".


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## Four (Nov 7, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Christians are not called to kill gays and "loose women".  Read John 8:1-11 to see how Jesus treated a "loose woman".



Is that god admitting he was wrong?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> Is that god admitting he was wrong?



Nope.


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## Four (Nov 7, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope.



So that means it was right to kill gays and loose women before the NT, but wrong after the NT?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> So that means it was right to kill gays and loose women before the NT, but wrong after the NT?



_At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.  The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group  and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.  In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”  They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”  Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.  Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,” Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”_


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## Four (Nov 7, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> _At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them.  The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group  and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery.  In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?”  They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
> 
> But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger.  When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.”  Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.
> 
> ...



You're quoting the new testament, it doesn't have much to do with my question.

In the OT, god made laws, in the NT, those laws were changed by god (or jesus, or the same person, trinity - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, etc) 

So, that either means that god was wrong, and changed his mind, or that moral rules about killing gay people and loose women change depending on what year it is.


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> So, that either means that god was wrong, and changed his mind, or that moral rules about killing gay people and loose women change depending on what year it is.



It means the nature of the interaction between man and God changed. Christians believe it has a lot to do with Jesus.....which is the basis of our faith.


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## Four (Nov 7, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> It means the nature of the interaction between man and God changed. Christians believe it has a lot to do with Jesus.....which is the basis of our faith.



So, if god changed the rules (even if it was 'through' jesus, its still the same entity) it would mean that the rules he made were wrong...


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> So, if god changed the rules (even if it was 'through' jesus, its still the same entity) it would mean that the rules he made were wrong...



Not really.  The prohibition on gayness still exists.  God just changed the way he dealt with things.

I'm not sure if that implies error, or just a change.


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## Four (Nov 7, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Not really.  The prohibition on gayness still exists.



Why do you say this? To the best of my knowledge the NT says nothing on homosexuality.. but the same can be said about shellfish or mixed fabric clothing.

Why does the prohibition on gayness still exist, but the prohibition on shellfish doesn't?



JB0704 said:


> God just changed the way he dealt with things.
> 
> I'm not sure if that implies error, or just a change.



Seems a little to big of a deal to be change to me... When I decide that i dont like a band anymore, that's change. When i buy a new car, that's change.

Deciding if someone deserved to die or not seems a bit to absolute to be "just a change"


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> Why do you say this? To the best of my knowledge the NT says nothing on homosexuality.. but the same can be said about shellfish or mixed fabric clothing.
> 
> Why does the prohibition on gayness still exist, but the prohibition on shellfish doesn't?



Just to point out that sin in a general sense is still sin.  I could have used adultery, or whatever "sin" we are discussing.  The shellfish stuff is kind-of addressed in the NT where Paul discussing that all things are now ok to eat.

Not sure what the deal is with mixed fabric.



Four said:


> Seems a little to big of a deal to be change to me... When I decide that i dont like a band anymore, that's change. When i buy a new car, that's change.
> Deciding if someone deserved to die or not seems a bit to absolute to be "just a change"



Hadn't ever thought it through that far......hmmm.....all I really know is that, according to the Bible, a change happened.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> You're quoting the new testament, it doesn't have much to do with my question.



It's Jesus dealing with the exact situation you bring up.




Four said:


> In the OT, god made laws, in the NT, those laws were changed by god (or jesus, or the same person, trinity - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, etc)



Haven't we done this OT/NT dichotomy a hundred times before?


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## centerpin fan (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> Why do you say this? To the best of my knowledge the NT says nothing on homosexuality.. but the same can be said about shellfish or mixed fabric clothing.



It's mentioned specifically in Romans 1.  It's mentioned in a broader sense (sexual immorality, fornication, etc.) in other passages such as Galatians 5.


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## Four (Nov 7, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It's Jesus dealing with the exact situation you bring up.



I wasn't arguing that the jesus god had a different opinion of  the OT god.. only that the opinion differed, and when you admit you've changed your mind on something like that, you would say that you were wrong.


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2012)

Four said:


> I wasn't arguing that the jesus god had a different opinion of  the OT god.. only that the opinion differed, and when you admit you've changed your mind on something like that, you would say that you were wrong.



Are you saying something that was once wrong is now ok is a change.....or that the consequences for the action changes?

Just trying to follow, here.......


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 7, 2012)

I think Four is asking a pretty good question. I don't have an answer either and would like to hear from others too. The question concerns why were certain actions so terrible that they required death and now they don't. Jesus removed us from administering those Old Testament punishments but that still doesn't answer the question.
I don't have a problem with God changing his mind. There are a few examples where God changed his mind.


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