# I wounded a bird with TSS shot.



## striper commander

I am not trying to start anything here but wanted to get this off my chest. Last year on opening day I called in two birds and I shot one of them at 50 yards standing on top of a big hill they were strutting and did not want to come any closer. I was shooting TSS 8X9 shot getting 300 plus pellets in a ten inch circle at 40 yards. I had my scope sighted in perfect. I shot one of the birds and it started jumping around and flopped down the cliff that was behind it. It took me about five minutes to get to the bird because of the rough terrain. When I found him he was looking at me flopping around in a creek trying to get away from me. I shot him again to finish him off from about twenty yards and it did not even bust his head up much. Then the next week I shot at a bird at around 40 yards and it flew off. It was running and I am assuming I missed that bird. I put up the last shell I had of it and went to something else. I had been having a small varmit getting into things around the house and I saw it one day in the edge of the yard about fifty yards away and I decided to try and shoot it with my last TSS shell. I shot it and it jumped around and run off. I could not find it anywhere so I figured it had run off and died. Well a few days later it was back and in the same spot. I had some old remington three inch hevi shot #6's laying in the gun cabinet and put it in the gun and shot the varmit and rolled it, it killed it dead. I know this is probably not the norm with what everybody experiances with TSS but this is what happened to me using it. I have killed a lot of turkeys with lead 6's at over 50 yards also. I don't know why it did not work for me. I would like to test some more of it just to see what happens because I am amazed at how it busted up the metal targets I shot at 40 yards but would not kill a turkey at 50. I have even thought about reloading some of it to try again because I can't get the shells anymore.


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## Nitro

I have no comment.......


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## hawglips

Jamie, very interesting indeed.  Where is your point of aim vs. point of impact at 50 yds with them?



> I shot him again to finish him off from about twenty yards and it did not even bust his head up much.



This is one thing I've noticed also shooting the 9x8s.  You don't get much bleeding with the small holes, but you get a lot of head swelling.


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## striper commander

It hits a little low at 50 so I was aiming at his eyes.


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## mjfortner

I would pattern at 50 to see what its doing. Well, come to think of it if it were me I would stick with the "somethin else".


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## sterlingworth

That small hard shot just zips right thru a turkey. It might not be knocking out enough of the central nervous system to put a turkey down for keeps. I have never shot any so this is just speculation on my part. The pellet counts are awesome from what Ive seen, but the small shot size has always concerned me. I come from a family of hunters who used lead 4's in one barrel and 2's in the other to break down a bird if need be. I get chastised for using 6's as they are deemed to small to put a bird down for keeps.


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## hawglips

Who else actually shot birds last year with TSS shot?   I'd love to hear if anyone else had any similar experiences as Jamie just recounted.


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## striper commander

How many did gadget shoot with it and at what ranges. I know he killed a pile of them with it.


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## hawglips

sterlingworth said:


> That small hard shot just zips right thru a turkey. It might not be knocking out enough of the central nervous system to put a turkey down for keeps.



Interesting thought.  I don't know.

There were a few more guys on here who shot TSS last year.  

Let's hear from other guys' experiences with how the birds reacted to the shot.


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## Turkey Comander

Would you say that's a prime example of the effectiveness of fairy dust size shot ?


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## hawglips

300mag said:


> How many did gadget shoot with it and at what ranges. I know he killed a pile of them with it.



I know poorcountrypreacher killed a few with it.  He told about one that was flying at 68 yds that "folded like a quail."  Since he's not posting here any more, I'll see if I can find his posts, because if I remember correctly, gave a day by day account of his hunting "tests" on TSS. 

Maybe blong killed some too?

I killed 4 last year with it.  But all were 40 yds or closer.  Not much head bleeding.  A lot of swelling.  One flopped a while, but he was pretty close and was getting out of dodge when I shot, and I didn't catch him square.  The others hardly flopped.  Plus a coyote broadside at 42 yards that whirled around three times nipping at his side, and then fell over and died right there.  He was bleeding out of his mouth and nose, and rectum, but no obvious entry or exit holes.  

Plus the guy hunting with me killed those two at 90 yds.  I know he had to wring one of their necks to finish it off, but one might expect that at such distance.  He couldn't have had much of a pattern at that range.


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## striper commander

Poorcountrypreacher used 3 1/2 7's or 8's didn't he.


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## nhancedsvt

I actually loaded some myself to try this year. I hope this doesn't happen very often.


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## Turkey Comander

hawglips said:


> I know poorcountrypreacher killed a few with it.  He told about one that was flying at 68 yds that "folded like a quail."
> 
> Plus the guy hunting with me killed those two at 90 yds.



That's crazy....pulm crazy.


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## gaturkey99

hawglips said:


> Plus the guy hunting with me killed those two at 90 yds.  I know he had to wring one of their necks to finish it off, but one might expect that at such distance.  He couldn't have had much of a pattern at that range.



turkeys at 90 yards!?!?!?


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## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> Would you say that's a prime example of the effectiveness of fairy dust size shot ?



I guess so, but to be fair we'd also have to say that the 90 yard shots are a prime example of their effectiveness as well.


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## Turkey Comander

hawglips said:


> I guess so, but to be fair we'd also have to say that the 90 yard shots are a prime example of their effectiveness as well.



Those 90 yard shots are example of crAzy.


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## hawglips

gaturkey99 said:


> turkeys at 90 yards!?!?!?



That's another sad story...


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## mjfortner

Do you know what size tss he used at 90 yds?


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## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> Those 90 yard shots are example of crAzy.



I agree 100%.  There's no excuse for it but to say he felt bad, and it's a good lesson on why you shouldn't trust your internal range finder.


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## hawglips

300mag said:


> Poorcountrypreacher used 3 1/2 7's or 8's didn't he.



He used 2 oz. of 8s.

Blong was using straight 8s also, I believe...


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## hawglips

mjfortner said:


> Do you know what size tss he used at 90 yds?



I loaded the shells for him, and I loaded him several different types since he was the primary guinea pig.  But all of them were loaded either all or primarily with #9s.


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## sterlingworth

Turkey Comander said:


> Would you say that's a prime example of the effectiveness of fairy dust size shot ?



I don't think I would say that.


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## Double Gun

hawglips said:


> I loaded the shells for him, and I loaded him several different types since he was the primary guinea pig.  But all of them were loaded either all or primarily with #9s.



Primary guinea pig! Sir you and your friend was not but unfortunantly the turkey was for your experiments. That to me shows a *total disrespect for the turkey itself *to go out and test new loads without knowing before hand the actual performence and just assuming what the capability's are.

Next time get some domestic turkeys or chickens and see what the outcome is, but to use the Wild Turkey to me is ingnorence and lack of respect. 

Sorry but maybe if you would not have used guinea pig which told me enough testing was not done to justify using them in a hunting situation.


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## mjfortner

A prime example of LUCK! You cant always count on one pellet hitting the turkey in the eye!


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## mjfortner

DG, how bout some respect for domestic turkeys and chickens!


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## wisturkeyhunter

Hal
Its obvious tss patterns very well. Nobody can debate that. If you really like tss and believe it to be the best why not use normal turkey shot sizes?


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## Double Gun

mjfortner said:


> DG, how bout some respect for domestic turkeys and chickens!



That to being my point.


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## Trizey

I killed one bird and ???? on another last year with TSS.  The bird that I killed was less than 30 yards and on a run to me.

The bird that I missed/wounded was at about 45 yards.  I had went in after lunch one day and heard a bird way off on the WMA.  I made a huge circle and got above the bird.  I sat down and hit my trumpet one time and could see a flock running to me.  6-8 hens came up with a jake and longbeard in tow.  Lead hen comes straight up the mountain and gets about 8 foot from my right shoulder.  She picked me off and started to boogey back down the mountain towards the gobbler.  I waited on him to step out from around a tree and let it sing.  Couldn't even find a cut feather and I'm not none for missing much of anything.  Truthfully I don't know what happened, but I watched him fly several hundreds of yards.

I felt like he was well within range for doing a flop dance though.  I hunted the rest of the season with my Nitro's, because I had no doubt about their ability to stone birds.

Of course we all know it only takes one pellet in the right spot.


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## hawglips

Here's some more on-bird TSS test reporting:

http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,17291.msg230556.html#msg230556


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## hawglips

Here's another:

http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,15170.0.html


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## hawglips

Another:

http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,15304.0.html


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## hawglips

http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,14854.0.html


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## wisturkeyhunter

Hal
You seem to be trying to convince you self more than anyone else. 

How about answering my question.


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## striper commander

The reason you don't load 6's in TSS is it weighs so much. You would not have very many pellets in a shell. Also pressure is a issue with the heavy loads.


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## Double Gun

hawglips said:


> Here's some more on-bird TSS test reporting:
> 
> http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,17291.msg230556.html#msg230556



No dought it will kill turkeys. But like WTH asked and a little confussed myself why does not one use 4,5, or sixes in TSS,or is it not made. If it is that heavier/denser and holds great patterens why all the need for 200/400 holes in a paper target in a 3", 10" or whatever circle at 40 yards? Now I do understand a little about more pellets maybe less holes in the patteren but when is to much to much?


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## Double Gun

300mag said:


> The reason you don't load 6's in TSS is it weighs so much. You would not have very many pellets in a shell. Also pressure is a issue with the heavy loads.




Thanks 300mag. But I am still confused on the rest.


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## hawglips

Double Gun said:


> Primary guinea pig! Sir you and your friend was not but unfortunantly the turkey was for your experiments. That to me shows a *total disrespect for the turkey itself *to go out and test new loads without knowing before hand the actual performence and just assuming what the capability's are.
> Next time get some domestic turkeys or chickens and see what the outcome is, but to use the Wild Turkey to me is ingnorence and lack of respect.
> 
> Sorry but maybe if you would not have used guinea pig which told me enough testing was not done to justify using them in a hunting situation.




Double gun, maybe you better go back and read a little more carefully and pull the reins in a bit on that high horse you jumped up on. I'd say the only disrespect here is what you are showing with your conclusion jumping.  

I can just about guarantee you the guy who shot those birds has as much respect for turkeys and a more intimate knowledge of them than you and any body else who posts on this board.  

And while you are preaching about ignorance and a lack of respect, please tell us what you know about what the testing he did before he hunted with them?


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## georgia_home

i am a noob thinking out loud. so if i am way off base, sorry.

the shot size just seems small, imvho! kind of like shooting geese with 7.5 or deer with #4 shot (NOT BUCK SHOT, BIRD SHOT).

i have always heard that the best turkey shot is somewhere in the area of 4 through 6, sometimes duplexing. 9x8, guessing that means duplex 8 and 9 shot, just seems more like a dove/quail load.

again, if i am way off base, please excuse me.


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## wisturkeyhunter

You can't say in one breath the guy shot a turkey at 90 yards and then in the next breath say he knows more and respects them more than anyone on this board.


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## Tailfeather

hawglips said:


> I can just about guarantee you the guy who shot those birds has as much respect for turkeys and a more intimate knowledge of them than you and any body else who posts on this board.


90 yds is a long way from the gun barrel and from respect.

There are yardage estimation errors and then there are.....

Good luck with whatever shell you choose.


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## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Hal
> Its obvious tss patterns very well. Nobody can debate that. If you really like tss and believe it to be the best why not use normal turkey shot sizes?



Good question.

The answer is the same reason the guy who did the study TC posted for us found that lead #4 or steel #3 were not viable 50 yd turkey loads.  

You have to have both adequate pattern density, and adequate pellet penetration energy.  You could load up #6 TSS, but it's so heavy, you are going way overkill on the penetration energy, while giving up the pattern density.  

The ideal turkey load would have the densest pattern possible, with the best penetration energy possible.  It's a trade-off with whatever you shoot.  TSS allows you to have both in large amounts.


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## straightshooter

The smaller the pellet, the less the energy.  The farther the shot, the less the energy.  Pellet count doesn't matter much if there's not enough pellet energy on delivery to kill the bird.  Remember that when shooting a gobbler in the head, you want to get a pellet or pellets in the brain or break a bone in the neck or spine.  If you're putting a bunch of pellets in the skin or you don't hit the brain or break a bone, you've got a good chance of losing the bird.  

As a turkey hunter, I'm more interested in killing the bird cleanly than I am counting a bunch of small pellet hits in a 10 inch circle at long range.  Hitting paper is one thing.  Killing a 20 pound gobbler is another.


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## Turkey Comander

wisturkeyhunter said:


> You can't say in one breath the guy shot a turkey at 90 yards and then in the next breath say he knows more and respects them more than anyone on this board.


That's not saying much for the rest of us...


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## hawglips

Tailfeather said:


> 90 yds is a long way from the gun barrel and from respect.



Respect is understanding what your know ammo is doing out there where you think the turkey is standing when you pull the trigger.  He had that covered in spades.  

The problem, and the lesson here is for those who think (like this guy did) that they have an internal range finder in their head.  They don't.  I don't care who they are.  He learned that lesson the hard way and ate some humble pie.

And regardless of his mistake and need for contrition, he pulled the trigger twice, and two turkeys died.


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## hawglips

straightshooter said:


> The smaller the pellet, the less the energy.



Yep.  Just like a beach ball has more energy than a golf ball.


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## Double Gun

hawglips said:


> Double gun, maybe you better go back and read a little more carefully and pull the reins in a bit on that high horse you jumped up on. I'd say the only disrespect here is what you are showing with your conclusion jumping.
> 
> I can just about guarantee you the guy who shot those birds has as much respect for turkeys and a more intimate knowledge of them than you and any body else who posts on this board.
> 
> And while you are preaching about ignorance and a lack of respect, please tell us what you know about what the testing he did before he hunted with them?





First off do not ride a high horse sir. No conclusion jumping either. Just reading your posts.
Who is jumping to conclusions when you about guarantee that the guy has more intimate knowledge and respect for turkeys then I or anybody else who posts on this board. Talk about air head conclusions.

Your last sentence is what a few folks on here are asking and I only see you side stepping them with an answer.

I think WTH said it: You can't say in one breath the guy shot a turkey at 90 yards and then in the next breath say he knows more and respects them more than anyone on this board.  
Today 11:09 AM

So tell us all about the testing that was done, other then patterens at 50 yards or penitrating metal at 40 or what ever. Inquiring minds would like to know.


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## wisturkeyhunter

Your right mistakes do happen in the way of range estimation. 10 or 15 yards is understandable. Twice as far as a guy should be shooting is not.


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## Turkey Comander

hawglips said:


> The problem, and the lesson here is for those who think (like this guy did) that they have an internal range finder in their head.  They don't.


Agreed no one does...but weren't you present when the 90 yard accident happend ?


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## BPR

wisturkeyhunter said:


> You can't say in one breath the guy shot a turkey at 90 yards and then in the next breath say he knows more and respects them more than anyone on this board.



Got to agree.  Those don't seem to go together.  I have misjudged distances and know that it happens.  But it makes you wonder what distance they thought that it was?  Did they think they were making a 70 yard shot and it was really a 90 yard? You don't misjudge 90 yards as 40. 

Not too wild about a 68 yard flying shot either.  

I haven't shot the TSS and I agree that it produces some impressive patterns.  I just worry that people start to think that they have a super shell that will birds up to 100 yards.  Kind of like the rage broadhead affect on bow hunting.  Some people think that the Rage can compensate for a poor shot.  But at the end of the day you still have to make a reasonable shot.


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## Double Gun

BPR said:


> Got to agree.  Those don't seem to go together.  I have misjudged distances and know that it happens.  But it makes you wonder what distance they thought that it was?  Did they think they were making a 70 yard shot and it was really a 90 yard? You don't misjudge 90 yards as 40.
> 
> Not too wild about a 68 yard flying shot either.
> 
> I haven't shot the TSS and I agree that it produces some impressive patterns.  I just worry that people start to think that they have a super shell that will birds up to 100 yards.  Kind of like the rage broadhead affect on bow hunting.  Some people think that the Rage can compensate for a poor shot.  But at the end of the day you still have to make a reasonable shot.



Agreed, well said. I need to cool down.


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## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> Agreed no one does...but weren't two of present when the 90 yard accident happend ?



No.  He was by himself.  And he has always been the kind of guy (like some on here) who claim they always shoot at X yards, and know where X yards is.  He staked out the crime scene, and came back to camp and took me there with a bewildered look on his face.  I didn't rub it in, but I could have.  He felt bad enough already, and his mistake didn't hurt anything.


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## Double Gun

BPR said:


> Got to agree.  Those don't seem to go together.  I have misjudged distances and know that it happens.  But it makes you wonder what distance they thought that it was?  Did they think they were making a 70 yard shot and it was really a 90 yard? You don't misjudge 90 yards as 40.
> 
> Not too wild about a 68 yard flying shot either.
> 
> I haven't shot the TSS and I agree that it produces some impressive patterns.  I just worry that people start to think that they have a super shell that will birds up to 100 yards.  Kind of like the rage broadhead affect on bow hunting.  Some people think that the Rage can compensate for a poor shot.  But at the end of the day you still have to make a reasonable shot.



Well said, thanks. Got to cool down myself, oops I mean get off my horse.

Or it was *just*  a 2 year old as one stated. Why "just" was he embarresed that it was nothing else? Maybe I read into things to much.


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## wisturkeyhunter

hawglips said:


> Yep.  Just like a beach ball has more energy than a golf ball.


You keep saying that but I think a baseball (lead 4) and a marble (tss 8 or 9) is more like it.


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## hawglips

BPR said:


> Got to agree.  Those don't seem to go together.  I have misjudged distances and know that it happens.  But it makes you wonder what distance they thought that it was?  Did they think they were making a 70 yard shot and it was really a 90 yard? You don't misjudge 90 yards as 40.
> 
> Not too wild about a 68 yard flying shot either.



He thought they were 65 yds.  He had tested them to 70 and knew they were as good at 70 as what he was used to shooting at 40 for all those years.   His internal range finder must have been on the blink.  And I bit my tongue instead of rubbing it in.

I'll let poorcountrypreacher explain, again, the 68 yd flying shot.

But speaking of flying shots, I recently finished Charlie Elliott's book, and he seemed to be pretty fond of them.



BPR said:


> I haven't shot the TSS and I agree that it produces some impressive patterns.  I just worry that people start to think that they have a super shell that will birds up to 100 yards.  Kind of like the rage broadhead affect on bow hunting.  Some people think that the Rage can compensate for a poor shot.  But at the end of the day you still have to make a reasonable shot.



All true.


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## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> You keep saying that but I think a baseball (lead 4) and a marble (tss 8 or 9) is more like it.



Wis, how much #8 or #9 TSS have you shot and compared against #4 lead?

I'm just trying to give a simple illustration of why smaller doesn't necessarily mean less energy.  It's just one of several factors.


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## wisturkeyhunter

hawglips said:


> "Plus the guy hunting with me killed those two at 90 yds."
> 
> 
> 
> "He couldn't have had much of a pattern at that range."
> 
> 
> 
> "I can just about guarantee you the guy who shot those birds has as much respect for turkeys and a more intimate knowledge of them than you and any body else who posts on this board. "


Be a shame not to have that all posted together.


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## wisturkeyhunter

hawglips said:


> Wis, how much #8 or #9 TSS have you shot and compared against #4 lead?


None.
You don't always have to do something to know its a bad idea. If 7's weigh less than a 5 lead than I'd hate to see what shot size your 9's compare to that you liken to a sniper rifle for turkeys.


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## sterlingworth

This respect for the bird stuff really cracks me up. Yeah I respect it, thats why I go out and try to remove  its head and neck from the rest of its body. I hate gobblers. They are the smartest dumb bird in the world. They will make a fool out of you more times than not. I get plenty of satisfaction out of legally  killing every one of them that I can. I dont feel sorry for them one bit when they are flopping all over the ground. I will shoot at them running, flying, or standing there looking stupid. I dont pray over one after I kill it. I throw it over my shoulder, lug it out of the woods, toss it in the back of my truck, load up my shotgun and go find another one. What is it that makes a turkey so special to you guys. I've got more respect for a squirrel myself.


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## wisturkeyhunter

Nothing makes me grin more than killing a gobbler that has frustrated me to no end but I still want to kill him dead as easy as possible.


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## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Your right mistakes do happen in the way of range estimation. 10 or 15 yards is understandable. Twice as far as a guy should be shooting is not.



There's another valuable lesson here.

I have another friend who shot a bird last year (with Winchester XRHD 5s) he thought was 45 yds away.  He stepped the bird off at 62 yds and felt bad about it.  

It was a 17 yd error.  That's a 28% error.

The 65 to 90 yd error is also a 28% error.   It's another reason to always be conservative with your internal range finder and have plenty of cushion in your gun/load's capabilities.  The further out you go, the larger your miscalcuations will be magnified.


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## wisturkeyhunter

Keep it up and people might start thinking your making this up as you go. 

Just for kicks whats a single tss 9 weigh and whats a lead 4 weigh?


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## Double Gun

Hawglips, I appoligize to you and all for getting off track with the thread, but some of use are trying to understand about TSS and its effectiveness. I for one and I am sure all here are not trying to show who has the most respect for the wild tukey or has the most intiment knowledge of them.

Its great one can think ouside the norm and takes inititive to act. But I am a little concerened for how far the envelope so to speak needs to be pushed when it comes to turkey hunting.


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## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> None.
> You don't always have to do something to know its a bad idea. If 7's weigh less than a 5 lead than I'd hate to see what shot size your 9's compare to that you liken to a sniper rifle for turkeys.



Explain how it's a bad idea, please.


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## wisturkeyhunter

For starters Go read the first post on here.


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## wisturkeyhunter

Everyone knows the farther the shot and the bigger the game the bigger the shot that needs to be used. Its how a shotgun works and kills. Using smaller shot which weighs less can't and won't extend you range.


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## hawglips

Double Gun said:


> Hawglips, I appoligize to you and all for getting off track with the thread, but some of use are trying to understand about TSS and its effectiveness.



Glad to hear that.  



Double Gun said:


> Its great one can think ouside the norm and takes inititive to act. But I am a little concerened for how far the envelope so to speak needs to be pushed when it comes to turkey hunting.



The funny thing is, when reading stuff the old timer guys wrote about guns and ammo for turkeys, and the shots they took, etc, it has often occured to me that they pushed the envelope more than we do today.  

18g/cc shot is very new, and those of us who are now shooting it at turkeys are plowing new ground.   Lots has been learned about it, but it's brand new.  

This thread is good for that reason.


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## sterlingworth

Double Gun said:


> Its great one can think ouside the norm and takes inititive to act. But I am a little concerened for how far the envelope so to speak needs to be pushed when it comes to turkey hunting.



No further than a good SxS, some high brass 2 3/4 " magnums, and a nice sounding box call!


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## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Everyone knows the farther the shot and the bigger the game the bigger the shot that needs to be used. Its how a shotgun works and kills. Using smaller shot which weighs less can't and won't extend you range.



So, you're saying that

1) size = weight, and 
2) weight is the only factor when it comes to shot killing range?  

Is this what you are saying?


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## Double Gun

sterlingworth said:


> No further than a good SxS, some high brass 2 3/4 " magnums, and a nice sounding box call!





HL, can't say much for the old timers that one reads about, but the ones I knew and know today never pushed shots past 30/35 yards using 4 or 6 lead. I have read (Davis, Mcillhanny, Everitt) accounts of 2 and BB shot being used and killing turkeys at 70 yards, but not on a regular basis. I think that may have brought on most States imposing shot restrictions as nothing larger then 4  along maybe with safety in mind also  and I do know a few States are looking at nothing smaller then 7's for turkey hunting. 


With that mindset and most folks when they think of turkey hunting most think 4,5,6 shot and 40 yards or less and some folks that are law makers and not hunters, scary right there. So if you were to ask to justify the use of TSS 8/9's to State boards to include in say a State restriction on shot size how would you put it to them the validity of its use for turkeys?

No formal letter please. Not to include what was from OG site or any previous posts. Could hurt the cause.


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## ryanwhit

hawglips said:


> The funny thing is, when reading stuff the old timer guys wrote about guns and ammo for turkeys, and the shots they took, etc, it has often occured to me that they pushed the envelope more than we do today.




Very true.  The Colonel talked about taking long shots, flying shots, etc. in his first book, so by my estimation, those shots could have taken place from sometime in the 1950s up to the mid-late '70s.  Significantly less technology then, but I'm sure he was using the best loads he could find.

He also said that if all you take is head shots (which is what I think most of us take these days) that there would be nothing wrong with using #9 shot, #10 if you could find it.

Notably, he also said that a major duty of a turkey hunter is to not take a shot that is outside of the lethal range of your equipment.  The question then becomes what exactly is the lethal range of ones equipment.  For some on this board, I have no doubt that it is 35 yards.  For others on this board, I have no doubt that it is 70.

The problem we are encountering now is that the 35 yarders are not happy with the 70 yarders.  For some reason.  They do the same thing - kill turkeys. If the 35 yarders take a 45 yard shot by mistake, then they may not kill effectively.  If the 70 yarders take a 90 yard shot by mistake, they may not kill effectively.  Whether or not one should shoot 45 or 90 yards is not my business.  Nor is it that of anyone else.  You might think it is your business, but you are wrong, which is probably not uncommon.


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## WaddleWhacker

i've killed a few well over 50 yards with lead 1 was 64 steps now i shoot winchester extends #6 and i killed them past 50 to...and i was thinking about trying out some of the tss but i've changed my mind and sticking with something i know that works and works well in my gun's...


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

hawglips said:


> So, you're saying that
> 
> 1) size = weight, and
> 2) weight is the only factor when it comes to shot killing range?
> 
> Is this what you are saying?



Effective shotgun=enough mass to break bones+enough pellets to hit the right bones consistently.

Going smaller and lighter (per pellet) only is going to complete half that equation.


----------



## boparks

I can't chime in a on a ballistics discussion. I just shoot # 6 Hevi Shot and turkeys seem to fall down alot.

But I can say that 73 post in 4 hours and aprx 42 minutes has to be some kind of record.


Thats 15.53 post per hour, mine being launched by a Lenova with a dual processor


----------



## BPR

For those that are curious about the different weights and shot sizes, this is from a previous post.  

Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
TSS 7s: 2.39 grains


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Effective shotgun=enough mass to break bones+enough pellets to hit the right bones consistently.



Correct.



wisturkeyhunter said:


> Going smaller and lighter (per pellet) only is going to complete half that equation.



Unless the pellets are denser.

Kinetic energy / pellet cross section is what determines how hard it hits.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

Weight per pellet is really what matters and tss isn't dense enough to make up for going several shot sizes smaller. Even 2 shot sizes smaller it doesn't compare.


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Weight per pellet is really what matters and tss isn't dense enough to make up for going several shot sizes smaller. Even 2 shot sizes smaller it doesn't compare.



You are 100% wrong here.  This can be easily measured, and has been, many times.


----------



## BPR

BPR said:


> For those that are curious about the different weights and shot sizes, this is from a previous post.
> 
> Lead 5s : 2.57 grains
> TSS 7s: 2.39 grains



I googled the weight of TSS and got some more numbers.  I went ahead and converted them to grains to be similar.  Below are the numbers.  


TSS
  5  - 4.25 grns
  7  - 2.39 grns
  8  - 1.75 grns

Lead
  4  - 3.24 grns
  5  - 2.57 grns
  6  - 1.94 grns

I didn't find the pellets per ounce for TSS 9 shot, but comparing it to difference in weight of lead, I estimated that TSS #9 would be 1.45 grns.

So based on this TSS #8 and #9s, don't weigh as much as Lead #6.  Just in case anyone was looking for something more technical than a beach ball compared to a golf ball.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

hawglips said:


> You are 100% wrong here.  This can be easily measured, and has been, many times.



Easily measure? 
Sure read BPR's numbers or measurments

Wrong
Nope read BPR's number

Please don't bore us with the less drag,tin man nonsense either. The weight per pellet is what matters.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

BPR
Thanks for posting them numbers.


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Easily measure?
> Sure read BPR's numbers or measurments
> 
> Wrong
> Nope read BPR's number
> 
> Please don't bore us with the less drag,tin man nonsense either. The weight per pellet is what matters.



Wis, if you do not understand why it isn't just weight, then you need to hit the books on ballistics.   Maybe it's boring if one doesn't understand something or doesn't care to know, but it's not boring to those who want to understand why.


----------



## Turkey Comander

BPR said:


> Just in case anyone was looking for something more technical than a beach ball compared to a golf ball.




Thanks it was getting really dense around here.....you know with all the beach balls and golf balls rolling around.


----------



## Turkey Comander

hawglips said:


> Wis, if you do not understand why it isn't just weight, then you need to hit the books on ballistics.



Ballistics doesn't have thing to do with a shotgun pellet.


----------



## Double Gun

boparks said:


> I can't chime in a on a ballistics discussion. I just shoot # 6 Hevi Shot and turkeys seem to fall down alot.
> 
> But I can say that 73 post in 4 hours and aprx 42 minutes has to be some kind of record.
> 
> 
> Thats 15.53 post per hour, mine being launched by a Lenova with a dual processor



 


Is not the United States of America still the greatest. 

Some great info here and I will say I am a little more versed with TSS then I was 4 hours ago .

But I think I will just continue to call birds into 35 yards or less (that to me is what it is about) and kill them deader then a rock with my little old handme down doubles and high-tech nickel platted lead shot, 4,5,or 6 depending on the gun. )h and of course no decoys or enclosed blinds  for me now, thats just for me.

Will peek in now and then to see if any more info can be obtained.

Or if HL does give me some info for my State for TSS 8/9 to be included in any shot size restrictions. Like I said in a previous post their are a couple States just looking but all know how when one gets their foot in the door.


----------



## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> Ballistics doesn't have thing to do with a shotgun pellet.





TC, I rest my case!!!


----------



## hawglips

BPR said:


> I googled the weight of TSS and got some more numbers.  I went ahead and converted them to grains to be similar.  Below are the numbers.
> 
> 
> TSS
> 5  - 4.25 grns
> 7  - 2.39 grns
> 8  - 1.75 grns
> 
> Lead
> 4  - 3.24 grns
> 5  - 2.57 grns
> 6  - 1.94 grns
> 
> I didn't find the pellets per ounce for TSS 9 shot, but comparing it to difference in weight of lead, I estimated that TSS #9 would be 1.45 grns.
> 
> So based on this TSS #8 and #9s, don't weigh as much as Lead #6.  Just in case anyone was looking for something more technical than a beach ball compared to a golf ball.



Come on guys.  

Are you two (TC, Wis) being serious?  

Do you really not understand that weight is just one factor among several that determine a projectile's lethality? 

Why don't you just throw a handful of rocks at the turkey, since they are heavier??

I am not sure you are being serious.

By the way, BPR, you must not have hung around here very long if you are trying to insinuate that I have not shared plenty of technical info on TSS.


----------



## rex upshaw

wisturkeyhunter said:


> The weight per pellet is what matters.



wrong
dead birds is what matters.  i don't shoot tss but the people that do seem to have good results with them.  there are a few of you who seem to be critical of those who have a different opinion, but all that matters is dead birds.  choose to hunt however you wish and with whatever loads you choose, but don't come around beating your chest about the way YOU think people should hunt, because no one cares.

as long as their hunting practices are ethical, i see no reason for you to bash the way they choose to spend their time hunting.  you have stated that you don't agree with the above comments of those in favor of tss and i don't see either side changing the opinion of the other.


----------



## Tailfeather

Double Gun said:


> :
> But I think I will just continue to call birds into 35 yards or less (that to me is what it is about) and kill them deader then a rock with my little old handme down doubles and high-tech nickel platted lead shot, 4,5,or 6 depending on the gun. )h and of course no decoys or enclosed blinds  for me now, thats just for me.


Now this is a post I can relate to.

Everybody have fun out there no matter what you're shooting..


----------



## georgia_home

dang!!! i am old school... read a little on the web site for tss.. they are comparing bb lead to #5 tss... and saying the 5 is better... i don't know. the old dog/new tricks things comes to mind. the appears to be some good study work done, but...

to some extent in my mind i keep coming back to the discussion, from long ago, m14(308) vs m16(223). mass / size / velocity / all that. i guess in the day, i'd 've said m14. (?6.8?)

i still go with my old school thinking about using somewhere around 4-6 shot lead for turkey instead of the new-fangled theory of tss. 

for those using tss, more power to you. i will just watch/observe for now. that's just me.

And PERSONALLY, i ain't takin' a shot over 40 yards! not telling anyone else what to do, this is just my personal choice.

(and along the lines of how out if date i was, i still thought a full choke was better for goose/duck then mod/impcyl. steel. was pointed out otherwise, and i found the research on the web. it looked logical, just new to this old dog!)

learning something new every day! even though i may continue on as before! 

ps.. i do think this is one of the more interesting threads i have read in a while!


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

I understand that you think a smaller pellet will penetrate better and because of that kill at a great distance because there is less drag or resistance. I just don't believe it cause that type of thinking is direct opposite of the common knowledge among shotgunners that bigger pellets inflict more damage.

If you've got a formula that can compute the drag and all the other factors on a number 9 pellet with the density of tss and compare it number to a number 4 lead pellet now would be the time to post it. Since its easily measured.


----------



## blindhog

TSS @ 1.75 grns #8
Lead @ 2.57 grns #5, heck even lead #6 @ 1.94 grns

Traveling the same velocity,  I will take lead copperplated or nickel plated!

When I shot lead it was #5's.  Turkeys died.


----------



## BPR

hawglips said:


> Why don't you just throw a handful of rocks at the turkey, since they are heavier??



If I could throw a handfull of rocks at 1200 fps, I would.  



hawglips said:


> By the way, BPR, you must not have hung around here very long if you are trying to insinuate that I have not shared plenty of technical info on TSS.



I said in my first post that these were numbers that you had posted.  I did however leave out your statement that they would smash a turkey's head at 80 yards as effectively as lead at 40 yards.  

All I did was give _all _the details side by side, since many were asking for them.


----------



## hawglips

blindhog said:


> TSS @ 1.75 grns #8
> Lead @ 2.57 grns #5, heck even lead #6 @ 1.94 grns
> 
> Traveling the same velocity,  I will take lead copperplated or nickel plated!



So would I, if kinetic energy was the only consideration.

But it's not.  

The muzzle velocity is not the velocity of the pellet when it actually smacks into the target downrange.  The denser pellet with it's weight concentrated into a smaller sphere hold's its velocity and kinetic energy better.

And kinetic energy spread over a wider area dissipates it's  energy over a wider area instead of concentrating it's energy and going in deeper when it hits it's target.   A lot more energy is required to bore a hole if the energy is spread out over a wider surface area on impact.

So, it's not the kinetic energy, but the energy density (KE / cross sectional area) that determines how well the energy is applied down into the target, i.e., penetration.

This is why at the same velocity, a #7 TSS pellet will go all the way through a bird's flesh and bone better than a #5 hevishot pellet.  And it's why a #6 lead pellet will go through a bird better than a #4 steel pellet.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

I know for a fact that a #4 steel penetrates pheasants better than #6 lead. Course that at reasonable shotgun ranges.


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> If you've got a formula that can compute the drag and all the other factors on a number 9 pellet with the density of tss and compare it number to a number 4 lead pellet now would be the time to post it. Since its easily measured.



I posted the formula above.  

And, I guess easy or hard is in the eyes of the beholder.  To me, there's a hard way (mathematically, i.e., kinetic energy of the sphere divided by it's cross sectional area),  and there's an easy way to measure it.

Here's the results of mathematical calculations.

At 65 yards: #BB lead at 1250fps = 352 energy density
At 65 yards: #5 TSS at 1240 fps = 428 energy density

Here's measurements using the easy way.


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I know for a fact that a #4 steel penetrates pheasants better than #6 lead. Course that at reasonable shotgun ranges.



If it's close, and at a higher velocity (which steel loads pretty much have to be to get it done), yes.


----------



## silvestris

hawglips said:


> He thought they were 65 yds.



Perhaps your friend would find his time better spent practicing his calling as opposed to the patterning board.


----------



## ssm

I think this would be a good project for the guys on the Mythbusters TV Show.


----------



## TurkeyManiac

Makes me want to switch to an Atlatl.


----------



## hawglips

silvestris said:


> Perhaps your friend would find his time better spent practicing his calling as opposed to the patterning board.



Now that's quite presumptuous of you, not knowing the guy and all, much less ever heard him work a call, or seeing him hunt.

I am quite confident that my friend in question here will more than hold his own calling in real turkeys with anyone on this board, including you.


----------



## striper commander

How much does the pattern drop at 90 yards, I never shot it that far.


----------



## BPR

hawglips said:


> I posted the formula above.
> 
> And, I guess easy or hard is in the eyes of the beholder.  To me, there's a hard way (mathematically, i.e., kinetic energy of the sphere divided by it's cross sectional area),  and there's an easy way to measure it.
> 
> Here's the results of mathematical calculations.
> 
> At 65 yards: #BB lead at 1250fps = 352 energy density
> At 65 yards: #5 TSS at 1240 fps = 428 energy density
> 
> Here's measurements using the easy way.



Why did you use BB and #5.  Or was that just an example that you were able to find?  

The other part of the discussion is the damage that the 9s cause to the animal as opposed to 6's.  There is a reason that with rifle balistics, the goal is to mushroom the bullet and cause the greatest amount of damage as possible.

And as for the tin, even if the energy was the same, it would be easier for the smaller object to punch through the tin than the larger object.


----------



## silvestris

hawglips said:


> Now that's quite presumptuous of you, not knowing the guy and all, much less ever heard him work a call, or seeing him hunt.
> 
> I am quite confident that my friend in question here will more than hold his own calling in real turkeys with anyone on this board, including you.



Not presumptuous, merely observant.  The proof is in the pudding.  Were he able to call them, why wouldn't he?


----------



## BPR

TurkeyManiac said:


> Makes me want to switch to an Atlatl.



The world record for a javelin is over 90 yards.


----------



## hawglips

BPR said:


> Why did you use BB and #5.  Or was that just an example that you were able to find?



Because I was just able to find that one.



BPR said:


> The other part of the discussion is the damage that the 9s cause to the animal as opposed to 6's.  There is a reason that with rifle balistics, the goal is to mushroom the bullet and cause the greatest amount of damage as possible.



True.



BPR said:


> And as for the tin, even if the energy was the same, it would be easier for the smaller object to punch through the tin than the larger object.



Yes.  That is also true.  But it's true about whatever it hits.  And that is why a smaller, and lighter TSS pellet, which has a much higher density, will punch through whatever it hits better than the larger, heavier but much less dense pellet.


----------



## Newman

What seems to be lost in all this is the fact that the original poster shot, but did not kill TWO birds at 40 and 50 yards.  I believe that that answers all questions about the affectiveness of TSS at normal ranges, let alone extended ranges.


----------



## Newman

hawglips said:


> Because I was just able to find that one.
> 
> 
> 
> True.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes.  That is also true.  But it's true about whatever it hits.  And that is why a smaller, and lighter TSS pellet, which has a much higher density, will punch through whatever it hits better than the larger, heavier but much less dense pellet.



It really isn't a fair comparison since besides being smaller, we all agree it is harder.  Much harder than the tin you shot, but the tin is harder than the lead.  Of course the lead doesn't penetrate tin as well as TSS.


----------



## Turkey Comander

ssm said:


> I think this would be a good project for the guys on the Mythbusters TV Show.




Or maybe a "real" rOcket scientist...


----------



## Turkey Comander

300mag said:


> How much does the pattern drop at 90 yards, I never shot it that far.



I figure Hawglipps buddy just scared the turkey to death with his mAgic picksey dust at 90 yards.

Check out the TSS turkey shoot http://www.freeworldgroup.com/games/turkey/index.html


----------



## dtala

unlike rifle bullets for deer, the object of a turkey load pellet is to break bone. I don't think I've ever seen a #2, #4, #6 expand, mushroom, on a turkey.

I do know the smaller, harder, pellets in Nitro Ammos loads will outpenetrate lead, or copperplated, shot. And they break the snot outa bones too.

"ballistics dosen't have a thing to do with a shotgun pellet"???  please tell me you're kidding....

and tell me what wrong with KILLING a flying turkey at 68 yards?? What were the circumstances?? I killed a flying bird at 72 steps(where fell fell) with 3" #2s..he was wounded by another fella with me. Thats why I usually back up with lead 2s.

I killed another flying bird at at least that far with #2s..on the third shot...another crippled bird, fell straight down, dead. There's something wrong with that.

and don't bother to tell me to learn to shoot the first shot, I wasn't the first shooter either time. And anyone who says they haven't messed up a first shot is a liar or newbie.....

I have NO experience with TSS shot...

I think the original poster just missed the bird ennyway.... been there, done that.

  troy


----------



## NorthGaHunter

Double Gun said:


> Primary guinea pig! Sir you and your friend was not but unfortunantly the turkey was for your experiments. That to me shows a *total disrespect for the turkey itself *to go out and test new loads without knowing before hand the actual performence and just assuming what the capability's are.
> 
> Next time get some domestic turkeys or chickens and see what the outcome is, but to use the Wild Turkey to me is ingnorence and lack of respect.
> 
> Sorry but maybe if you would not have used guinea pig which told me enough testing was not done to justify using them in a hunting situation.




So what should someone do if they are trying out a new bullet for deer?  Go shoot at a cow or goat?

I believe the posts regarding all the great patterns and metal penetration were pretty sufficient tests.


----------



## striper commander

I did miss the second bird I think because it was running like I said in the first post. The first one I was propped on a tree and was real steady when I shot it. The animal I shot in the yard jumped and bit at it's side and ran off so I know I hit it solid.


----------



## dwills

Turkeys have been missed with all sorts of shells and I think this story can be related to any turkey load on the market. I "missed" two turkeys last year in kansas that I thought I had my bead right on their neck, and that was with the mighty nitros. I missed one of them at 30 yards, while propping against a tree, much like the OP. I don't think it has anything to do with the shell. IMO, sometimes the shot just fails to hit the spine or brain, which is required to put a bird straight down. Sure, we can put lots of shot in the head or neck, but if you don't break his spine, he is going to fly away.


----------



## dtala

at thirty yards ya prolly just missed, be hard to be "on" with those Nitros at thirty and NOT hit bone....

I understand missing at 30 and inside because of pattern size, esp those ten yard shots. I missed one at 35 yards onct with WW#6s..a miricle???? Danged ifin I know. That gun shot a beautiful 35 yard pattern...and I watched the bird strut for fifteen minutes, sometimes closer, before "killing" him

  troy


----------



## striper commander

Here is the kind of patterns the tss throwed in my gun at 40 yards, some of the 8's went through it. At 50 it would be hard to miss a turkey but up close it would not be. I noticed on old gobbler that who I got the shells from also loaded some T15 shot. I don't know if that is what I was shooting or not but that might explain what happened if it was. Also the 8 and 9 TSS does weigh less than lead 6's from the chart sloppy snood posted on here. I like what SSM said. Get mythbusters on it.


----------



## Double Gun

NorthGaHunter said:


> So what should someone do if they are trying out a new bullet for deer?  Go shoot at a cow or goat?
> 
> No, my statement being based on his wording (see below), that his friend was the guinea pig to test the shells on the hunt. When in fact it was in reality the turkey that was the guinea pig. And me adding the domestic turkey and chicken was met to be sarcastic just like yours with the cow and goat.
> 
> I believe the posts regarding all the great patterns and metal penetration were pretty sufficient tests.



You must have seen a lot more posts then on this thread then me and a couple others to say they were suficient tests. Putting some holes in paper and tin are to me no were close to actual bone, feathers and flesh. There are ways today to simulate that where no other live animal is required.

His original post: I loaded the shells for him, and I loaded him several different types since he was the primary guinea pig. But all of them were loaded either all or primarily with #9s.


----------



## Dupree

300mag said:


> I noticed on old gobbler that who I got the shells from also loaded some T15 shot.



im wondering if the loads you shot werent loaded exactly right, in fact ive wondered that since last year when all this happend. 

I personally want something a little bigger than #9. Im sold on hevier than lead shells, just not "pixie dust"


----------



## Public Land Prowler

300mag said:


> I am not trying to start anything here but wanted to get this off my chest. Last year on opening day I called in two birds and I shot one of them at 50 yards standing on top of a big hill they were strutting and did not want to come any closer. I was shooting TSS 8X9 shot getting 300 plus pellets in a ten inch circle at 40 yards. I had my scope sighted in perfect. I shot one of the birds and it started jumping around and flopped down the cliff that was behind it. It took me about five minutes to get to the bird because of the rough terrain. When I found him he was looking at me flopping around in a creek trying to get away from me. I shot him again to finish him off from about twenty yards and it did not even bust his head up much. Then the next week I shot at a bird at around 40 yards and it flew off. It was running and I am assuming I missed that bird. I put up the last shell I had of it and went to something else. I had been having a small varmit getting into things around the house and I saw it one day in the edge of the yard about fifty yards away and I decided to try and shoot it with my last TSS shell. I shot it and it jumped around and run off. I could not find it anywhere so I figured it had run off and died. Well a few days later it was back and in the same spot. I had some old remington three inch hevi shot #6's laying in the gun cabinet and put it in the gun and shot the varmit and rolled it, it killed it dead. I know this is probably not the norm with what everybody experiances with TSS but this is what happened to me using it. I have killed a lot of turkeys with lead 6's at over 50 yards also. I don't know why it did not work for me. I would like to test some more of it just to see what happens because I am amazed at how it busted up the metal targets I shot at 40 yards but would not kill a turkey at 50. I have even thought about reloading some of it to try again because I can't get the shells anymore.



That's the difference between paper and bones/feathers.It is misleading when guys see all these hits,the thing is that small shot runs out of energy,and isnt as dependable at longer ranges...That's why I shoot #4's,and cleanly take birds out to 65yds.Would go past 55 with 5's,or 45 with 6's..just my experience.Smaller the shot the closer it would have to be for me.Doubt you did anything wrong,the pellets just ran out of steam..sure jed's cousin shot one at 80 steps with it,but I bet it wont happen regular enough to warrant trying it again.


----------



## striper commander

He knows how to load shells, I did not want this to turn into any kind of bashing thread and it has been kinda civil. I was just letting what happened be known. From what happened to me though it just seems like it does not have a lot of energy at 50 yards. I know I should not of even shot at an animal at that range but from the patterns I got with it I figured it would be no problem. When I shot the critter in the yard with my last T98 I used that shell to see if wounding the turkey with them opening day might have been a fluke. The varmit acted hurt when I shot it but it run off and came back a week later and hevi 6's killed it. They even knocked it sideways when I shot it at the same range.


----------



## Double Gun

300 mag, pretty impressive sworm of shot, but then again 8's are a lot of shot. And so far sir you have given some pretty level headed honesty and info.

Now most of what I picked up on is that all are shooting at the head and neck of the turkey and the ones shooting these 8 and 9's make it more of a point. 

But I think a turkeys reaction at 40+ yards is quicker then most think from a standing pretty still position head neck up. Now if a turkey was to move at just the right moment (and most here I am sure can attest to a turkeys reaction time) and depending on the turkeys position when it did react that maybe just maybe some or most of the shot would hit the bird in the body or not with the same effect if a few pellets did catch him in the head and neck.

Now I have seen a lot when working birds for others the turkeys reaction at the time of the shot the bird picked up on something and reacted or just took a step with the old head bob but after the shot the person is perplexed at how he missed or body shot him when he had the sights, scope on the turkeys head and neck. And these were at ranges of 10 to 40 yards.

I do not know about most but I wish all the shots I have taken at turkeys were like shooting and practicing at still targets but I know that is not always the case on the hunt. 

All I am trying to say that there are other varibles that must be taken into the equation. That is why I like the 4's plated lead shot out of the guns I shot to compensate just that one fudge factor in. Lets not even get into the wind factor.

So until further and more detailed testing has been done  on the TSS why not stay with the tested proven Heavy, extended range (there is a good marketing idea of wording) or what ever.

Again everyone has a choice to make, makes no difference if I or anyone else thinks otherwise just as long as it is within reasonable respect of the bird we are hunting. 
Not just to pound ones chest.
Or say that I know this guy can out call, kill more turkeys and out hunt anyone here on this board. That is nothing more then putting ones self or someone else ahead of the turkey itself.


----------



## Turkey Comander

300mag said:


> He knows how to load shells, I did not want this to turn into any kind of bashing thread and it has been kinda civil. I was just letting what happened be known. From what happened to me though it just seems like it does not have a lot of energy at 50 yards. I know I should not of even shot at an animal at that range but from the patterns I got with it I figured it would be no problem. When I shot the critter in the yard with my last T98 I used that shell to see if wounding the turkey with them opening day might have been a fluke. The varmit acted hurt when I shot it but it run off and came back a week later and hevi 6's killed it. They even knocked it sideways when I shot it at the same range.



That's a good testimony to the effectiveness of magic picksey dust. 

We all learn from mistakes it just takes some us longer than others.


----------



## trkyburns

After following this thread all day, I just have one question...

What exactly was that "varmint" you shot in your backyard???


----------



## dtala

the neighbor????


----------



## hawglips

Public Land Prowler said:


> That's the difference between paper and bones/feathers.It is misleading when guys see all these hits,the thing is that small shot runs out of energy,and isnt as dependable at longer ranges...That's why I shoot #4's,and cleanly take birds out to 65yds.Would go past 55 with 5's,or 45 with 6's..just my experience.Smaller the shot the closer it would have to be for me.Doubt you did anything wrong,the pellets just ran out of steam..sure jed's cousin shot one at 80 steps with it,but I bet it wont happen regular enough to warrant trying it again.



The pellets can't run out of steam at 40-45 yards and still kill turkeys at 90 yards.  2 for 2 at that range.  And they can't kill  coytoes at 65 yds either, if they ran out of steam.  Last year, turkeys already killed at 57, 68, 45 yds, etc.   Jamies' problem certainly wasn't the pellets running out of steam.  That's the only thing that IS certain, no matter how much some folks here really want to believe that and have others believe it.  (And one thing all those guys have in common is that they have never shot any or tested it....)

But there are uncertainties.

The little holes punched through the turkey theory is very interesting to me.  It could be the case.  But I don't know enough about a bird's central nervous system to comment much on that one.   However, the small hole theory doesn't jive with how Nitros fills their #7-1/2 hevishot shells full of shot from #7 to #9 in size, with 30% less pellet density and way less penetration power per pellet at the ranges we're talking about.  Maybe Nitros work well because the pellets remain lodged in the turkey??  I doubt it seriously.  In any event, there are enough guys going to try out the straight 9s this year on live birds, so we'll have a lot more evidence to see how that theory holds up before too long.

And there is another very important component to it all that no one is talking about around here.  As far as any of us know, only one person on earth had ever loaded up a heavy turkey load using that shot at that point in the game.  It's been totally in the hands of one person, who was going on trial and error, totally from scratch, using only two guns to do the testing out of.   Now I don't know about you, but that should give folks pause about putting the blame on the shot.  It's like blaming the gas when your car breaks down.  

But things are different now.  Now that more folks are loading it and using it, various things are starting to be figured out.  For example, Gadget has really dialed it in with his Benelli.  Other experienced handloaders have worked up different recipes also.  So, we'll get a lot clearer picture by the end of this upcoming season.

I'm beginning to believe that a more likely culprit in Jamie's case is the shell recipe/gun combination.  Based on one interesting thing that has been discovered in the last two weeks, is that the large bored Mossberg 835 does not seem to like my recipe (the one Jamie shot) very much.  It is proving WAY inconsistent.  Patterns in the low 100's with gaping holes at 40 yds with a range of chokes...   Stay tuned for the outcome on that.


----------



## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> That's a good testimony to the effectiveness of magic picksey dust.



But the 90 yard dead birds, and the 65 yard dead coyotes, is not a good testimony to it's effectiveness.

Right Frank?


----------



## striper commander

I saw where that guy was having problems on old gobbler with his TSS 8's. Mine shot pellet counts from 280 something to 351 in a ten inch circle with a 24 inch barrel. So my gun does not fall into that category. You even posted my pattern on the same thread showing them what my gun did. and telling him might need a tighter choke.


----------



## sterlingworth

I think loading those in a straight 7 or 6x7 might be the ideal. I know very little about reloading though. Seems with that size you would get the best of both worlds. A little larger pellet and the pattern uniformity the denser shot seems to throw. If you were to load a 60/40 of 6/7 what kind of pellet count and velocity would you get HL?


----------



## Turkey Comander

hawglips said:


> But the 90 yard dead birds, and the 65 yard dead coyotes, is not a good testimony to it's effectiveness.
> 
> Right Frank?



A dead turkey shot with Magic Picksey dust at 90 yds is kind a like a meteor falling from the sky and hitting you on top of the head......

Ask yourself Hawg.....would you rather be hit on the head by a small meteor or a big astroid ?

About 10 years ago I had a guy in east Tennessee send me some shells he loaded....said they were as good or better than Nitros...I shot a couple of them at a target one looked good....the other hardly put any shot in the paper. 

Lucky for me I didn't shoot another good one and end up shooting a turkey with the bad one.

Confucius say....

Man not run out buy shOtgun reload machine and become x-pert over night.


----------



## hawglips

300mag said:


> I saw where that guy was having problems on old gobbler with his TSS 8's. Mine shot pellet counts from 280 something to 351 in a ten inch circle with a 24 inch barrel. So my gun does not fall into that category.



Maybe not.  It wasn't until the 3rd guy reporting 835 problems yesteray that got me thinking that.  It's got me wondering for sure...

But it ain't the pellets running out of steam at 45 to 50 yds...


----------



## Turkey Comander

Hawg....I'm hating to say I told you so.


----------



## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> A dead turkey shot with Magic Picksey dust at 90 yds is kind a like a meteor falling from the sky and hitting you on top of the head......



Yeah.  Except it would be like going outside twice in your life, and getting hit in the head with a meteor both times.



Turkey Comander said:


> Ask yourself Hawg.....would you rather be hit on the head by a small meteor or a big astroid ?



That's like asking would you rather be hit by a big TSS pellet or a small one. 



Turkey Comander said:


> About 10 years ago I had a guy in east Tennessee send me some shells he loaded....said they were as good or better than Nitros...I shot a couple of them at a target one looked good....the other hardly put any shot in the paper.
> 
> Lucky for me I didn't shoot another good one and end up shooting a turkey with the bad one.



You made a good choice.



Turkey Comander said:


> Confucius say....
> 
> Man not run out buy shOtgun reload machine and become x-pert over night.



Confucius was a very wise man.


----------



## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> Hawg....I'm hating to say I told you so.



You told me that little teeny TSS would kill coyotes out to 65 yards, and turkeys to 90 yards?

I don't recall you saying that Frank.


----------



## Turkey Comander

Could I make a suggestion...

Get some turkey size pellets of TSS like a 4,5 or 6 and try them.


----------



## Brad C.

Guys,

I'll say this is one exciting thread with a lot of posts and I would bet it may go 10 pages if it stays civil.

I can tell you that hawglips is trying to educate you boys.  He is one of the guys that I know just like another guy who goes by reloader that studies this TSS stuff and knows what he says, or he wouldn't be saying it.  These 2 guys have taught me more about Hevi-Shot than anybody I know on forums like this.  A matter of fact they help convert me from being a lead #4 guy to a Hevi-Shot guy.  I now won't shoot anything else in my shotguns.  And I thank these 2 guys for taking the time to educate me to realize that this hard shot is the way to go vs lead.  

 That sheet metal test will show proof that hard shot will zip through stuff that a lead #4 won't do nothing but peen it.  Now I was hard headed at first when I first saw this, but then I realized I was wrong.  The proof is in the metal.  That denser shot will simply put out penetrate a lead shot that is 2 to 3 times as big.


----------



## hawglips

sterlingworth said:


> I think loading those in a straight 7 or 6x7 might be the ideal. I know very little about reloading though. Seems with that size you would get the best of both worlds. A little larger pellet and the pattern uniformity the denser shot seems to throw. If you were to load a 60/40 of 6/7 what kind of pellet count and velocity would you get HL?



You could play around with it to see how to choke it, but that would be a great coyote load.  

You'd only get about 320-330 pellets in a 2 oz load.  

It would be about like shooting a 3-3/4 oz. load of lead #2s.  But with a lot less kick, and a lot more velocity.


----------



## Turkey Comander

Brad C. said:


> That seet metal test will show proof that hard shot will zip through stuff that a lead #4 won't do nothing but peen it.
> 
> Now I was hard headed at first when I first saw this, but then I relaized I was wrong.  The proof is in the metal.  That denser shot will simply put out penetrate a lead shot that is 2 to 3 times as big.



Most of us "guys" are not shooting "seet metal"....


----------



## hawglips

Turkey Comander said:


> Could I make a suggestion...
> 
> Get some turkey size pellets of TSS like a 4,5 or 6 and try them.



I would be afraid to be in the same woods with the guy that was shooting that...


----------



## BPR

hawglips said:


> The little holes punched through the turkey theory is very interesting to me.  It could be the case.  But I don't know enough about a bird's central nervous system to comment much on that one.   However, the small hole theory doesn't jive with how Nitros fills their #7-1/2 hevishot shells full of shot from #7 to #9 in size, with 30% less pellet density and way less penetration power per pellet at the ranges we're talking about.  Maybe Nitros work well because the pellets remain lodged in the turkey??  I doubt it seriously.  In any event, there are enough guys going to try out the straight 9s this year on live birds, so we'll have a lot more evidence to see how that theory holds up before too long.



One other thought that I was wondering about was the actual energy given to the turkey's head.  It could be that the smaller pellets are zipping through the head, when the larger pellets are actually causing the head/neck to snap from the force.  In other words, if you hit the head with enough force you could break the neck even if you didn't actually hit the spinal cord.  I'm not saying that this is what is happening, I'm just throwing it out there as another potential factor.  

I don't fault anyone for trying something new and I agree that you are definately on the cutting edge.  I enjoy your post on the subject and its apparent that you have researched it a good deal.  I'm just trying to point out some other potential factors.  Keep us posted as to the other results from the field this year.


----------



## Turkey Comander

hawglips said:


> You could play around with it to see how to choke it, but that would be a great coyote load.
> 
> You'd only get about 320-330 pellets in a 2 oz load.
> 
> It would be about like shooting a 3-3/4 oz. load of lead #2s.  But with a lot less kick, and a lot more velocity.



Excuse me...that's totally rediculas. A 7 TSS in no way can compare to a lead #2


----------



## BPR

Brad C. said:


> Guys,
> 
> I'll say this is one exciting thread with a lot of posts and I would bet it may go 10 pages if it stays civil.
> 
> I can tell you that hawglips is trying to educate you boys.  He is one of the guys that I know just like another guy who goes by reloader that studies this TSS stuff and knows what he says, or he wouldn't be saying it.  These 2 guys have taught me more about Hevi-Shot than anybody I know on forums like this.  A matter of fact they help convert me from being a lead #4 guy to a Hevi-Shot guy.  I now won't shoot anything else in my shotguns.  And I thank these 2 guys for taking the time to educate me to realize that this hard shot is the way to go vs lead.
> 
> That sheet metal test will show proof that hard shot will zip through stuff that a lead #4 won't do nothing but peen it.  Now I was hard headed at first when I first saw this, but then I realized I was wrong.  The proof is in the metal.  That denser shot will simply put out penetrate a lead shot that is 2 to 3 times as big.



So they converted you from lead to hevi13?  Do you shoot TSS?


----------



## BPR

hawglips said:


> I would be afraid to be in the same woods with the guy that was shooting that...



Why?  

Your previous example was comparing bb and #5 TSS.  I'm assuming that this was probably a goose load?


----------



## howl

My .02 on T8 @ 1.75 grns vs lead 6 @ 1.94 grns"

The smaller shot may carry its energy farther and penetrate better. The larger shot will impart more shock to the animal due to greater mass and larger surface area. Penetration isn't so much an issue as long as bones are broken, except its probable that the smaller, less dense shot is more likely to be deflected and snake around as it penetrates. This might work out going in voids and between vertebrae or it might just slip on around. I do not see it being as dependable as the adequate penetration with greater outright shock of the lead sixes.

You'll get some amazing results in part simply because people are trying those longer shots. The smaller TSS shot just isn't going to be as reliable at ranges past forty yards. Bottom line is that you need to let the bird get inside forty and use as wide a pattern as you can and still get enough pellets in the head and neck to be sure of clean kills. If you want to shoot them farther than that do it like the old timers and use a rifle.


----------



## striper commander

Well I just think the loads I shot were not loaded hot enough. They barely kicked and it was a 2oz load. So they could not of been shooting that fast. I asked if you had ever chronoed them and you told me no. But it seems like you said you thought they should be shooting around 1100 FPS. I have a PM where we talked about it. Good luck to everyone shooting the 9's tell us how they perform for you this spring. I will be shooting federal heavyweight 7's like I used too.


----------



## Brad C.

BPR said:


> So they converted you from lead to hevi13?  Do you shoot TSS?



Not yet, but I can tell you this much after seeing some of the patterns from this TSS, there is no doubt in my mind as hard and dense as this stuff is that it will and can kill a turkey farther than you or I need to be shooting them.  Now call that a silly statement, but this shot will smoke lead shot there is no question about it.  

Frank, 

Turkeys may not have a head as hard as sheetmetal, but I can assure you that a lead #4 or #5 if it was superior to this TSS shot that it would have zipped right through the sheetmetal.  It wasn't hard enough to do so.  Now you can argue energy all you want, but penetration is what kills a turkey not knockdown power.


----------



## Gadget

There's a lot of data on the TSS website, these guys have done a ton of testing, mostly concerning duck and goose hunting but it can be carried over for turkey too. They've tested on live as well as dead mallards and have also tested with ballistic gell which is more closely related to flesh.


http://http://www.tungstensupershot.com/pages/technical.asp




> TSS pellets penetrate similar to lead pellets that are four to five sizes  larger (see ballistic comparison tables below). During the 2006 Waterfowl season  we shot Geese, including large Canada’s, with TSS number seven shot. The results  were excellent. Even at angles that made penetration critical, and ranges over  50 yards, the super dense pellets got the job done.






> There are three critical factors that govern a hunter's success in the  harvesting of game. These factors are:
> 
> 1. The capability of pellets to  cleanly dispatch game at a given range.
> 2. Adequate pattern density to assure  hits on vitals provided that:
> 3. The shooter can put the shotload on  target.
> 
> Super Shot provides the physical properties to deliver the best  in all three.






> * THE BOTTOM LINE*
> - Tungsten Super Shots superior density provides  superior pellet penetration.
> - Superior penetration allows the use of smaller  pellets.
> - Smaller pellets allow higher pellet counts per load.
> - Higher  pellet counts allow for denser and larger patterns.
> - Tungsten Super Shot is  the ultimate pellet projectile.






> * A load of #5 TSS pellets launched at 1200 fps will arrive at a 60-yard target  at virtually the same time as a steel load of BBB pellets launched at 1450  fps.*





They used to have pictures of mallards that had been shot with TSS #8 which showed complete 100% pass throughs by all pellets at 50yds, I guess the anti crowd persuaded them to remove them. They also had pics of Mallards shot with #4 lead at 50yds that showed about half pellets didn't pass thru; this corresponds almost exactly with the results that Hawlips gets when shooting the tin targets at 40yds; TSS 8's 100% pass thru, lead #4 about 40%, TSS #9 about 60%.


----------



## Turkey Comander

BPR said:


> It could be that the smaller pellets are zipping through the head, when the larger pellets are actually causing the head/neck to snap from the force.  In other words, if you hit the head with enough force you could break the neck even if you didn't actually hit the spinal cord.  I'm not saying that this is what is happening, I'm just throwing it out there as another potential factor.



Could be but it's not 

A few years back I experienced the effectiveness of a Hevi-shot size 7 pellet first hand. I shot a big gobbler a little over 40 yards.....he was walking and I was twisted as far as I could turn. I took the shot....he went down got up ran and flew off.

The next morning I went back after him....got in tight on his roost called once a hen answered....after a while they came dropping in....he was the 3 rd one to hit the ground at less than 20 yards....he took a step or two I made a slight adjustment in my aim....bOOm. 
I shoot the waddles....the shot had went a tad low messing up his beard and just raking the top of the breast.

After I got him checked in and got home I commenced to cleaning him.....I slit the breast skin open and torn it apart then as I always do I grabbed the drum sticks to break him down for easier cleaning. 

That's when I felt something it felt like bumps under the skin....after I got the breast removed I commenced to dissect the leg. I slit the skin and pulled in back....in the mucus membrane there were what looked like hundreds of little #7 Hevi Shot pellets. 

As God as my witness....All they did was penetrate the feathers and skin.

Even with the bad shot if I had been shooting larger shot the bird wouldn't have got away because bigger shot would have broken his legs.


----------



## BPR

howl said:


> My .02 on T8 @ 1.75 grns vs lead 6 @ 1.94 grns"
> 
> The smaller shot may carry its energy farther and penetrate better. The larger shot will impart more shock to the animal due to greater mass and larger surface area. Penetration isn't so much an issue as long as bones are broken, except its probable that the smaller, less dense shot is more likely to be deflected and snake around as it penetrates. This might work out going in voids and between vertebrae or it might just slip on around. I do not see it being as dependable as the adequate penetration with greater outright shock of the lead sixes.
> 
> You'll get some amazing results in part simply because people are trying those longer shots. The smaller TSS shot just isn't going to be as reliable at ranges past forty yards. Bottom line is that you need to let the bird get inside forty and use as wide a pattern as you can and still get enough pellets in the head and neck to be sure of clean kills. If you want to shoot them farther than that do it like the old timers and use a rifle.




Well said.  Its what I was trying to point out, but you were more articulate about it than I was.


----------



## Gut_Pile

page 4...here we come


----------



## striper commander

Gut_Pile said:


> page 4...here we come



Why don't they shoot the geese with the TSS9's instead of 7's. I know the 7's will smoke anything. If the 9's killed a coyote at over 60 yards they should knock a goose out of the sky easy.


----------



## hawglips

300mag said:


> Well I just think the loads I shot were not loaded hot enough. They barely kicked and it was a 2oz load. So they could not of been shooting that fast. I asked if you had ever chronoed them and you told me no. But it seems like you said you thought they should be shooting around 1100 FPS.



That can't be it.  The load you shot has since been sent to the lab for official testing and came back at 1182fps.


----------



## silvestris

I do see one plus to the long range shooting with TSS.  At least we won't have to put up with all that pesky drumming anymore.


----------



## striper commander

Is that the same load that had too high of a pressure on sloppysnood's web site. Just noticed his load was 2 1/4 ozs instead of 2 like mine.


----------



## Turkey Comander

300mag said:


> Why don't they shoot the geese with the TSS9's instead of 7's. I know the 7's will smoke anything. If the 9's killed a coyote at over 60 yards they should knock a goose out of the sky easy.



It's called advertising propaganda.


----------



## hawglips

Gadget said:


> They used to have pictures of mallards that had been shot with TSS #8 which showed complete 100% pass throughs by all pellets at 50yds, I guess the anti crowd persuaded them to remove them. They also had pics of Mallards shot with #4 lead at 50yds that showed about half pellets didn't pass thru.



I think these are the pictures you're referring to.


----------



## striper commander

Did they test any of the 9's on mallards.


----------



## Turkey Comander

Turkey Comander said:


> Could be but it's not
> 
> A few years back I experienced the effectiveness of a Hevi-shot size 7 pellet first hand. I shot a big gobbler a little over 40 yards.....he was walking and I was twisted as far as I could turn. I took the shot....he went down got up ran and flew off.
> 
> The next morning I went back after him....got in tight on his roost called once a hen answered....after a while they came dropping in....he was the 3 rd one to hit the ground at less than 20 yards....he took a step or two I made a slight adjustment in my aim....bOOm.
> I shoot the waddles....the shot had went a tad low messing up his beard and just raking the top of the breast.
> 
> After I got him checked in and got home I commenced to cleaning him.....I slit the breast skin open and torn it apart then as I always do I grabbed the drum sticks to break him down for easier cleaning.
> 
> That's when I felt something it felt like bumps under the skin....after I got the breast removed I commenced to dissect the leg. I slit the skin and pulled in back....in the mucus membrane there were what looked like hundreds of little #7 Hevi Shot pellets.
> 
> As God as my witness....All they did was penetrate the feathers and skin.
> 
> Even with the bad shot if I had been shooting larger shot the bird wouldn't have got away because bigger shot would have broken his legs.



Didn't want to miss the ride...


----------



## rex upshaw

Turkey Comander said:


> A few years back I experienced the effectiveness of a Hevi-shot size 7 pellet first hand. I shot a big gobbler a little over 40 yards.....he was walking and I was twisted as far as I could turn. I took the shot....he went down got up ran and flew off.



did yOu hAppen to mEntion thAt when yOu sent in yOur pIcture to nItro for theIr website?


----------



## Gadget

hawglips said:


> I think these are the pictures you're referring to.






Yeah, that's them, didn't they have tests with lead 4 and #8 TSS too? been about a year since I saw them.


----------



## sterlingworth

Turkey Comander said:


> Even with the bad shot if I had been shooting larger shot the bird wouldn't have got away because bigger shot would have broken his legs.



Note to self.....When shooting turkeys in the legs be sure to use a pellet larger than size 7. 

Far as I can tell a turkey with broke legs can still fly. Landing might be a problem and he might beat the ground to death, but I think he could still get airborne.


----------



## hawglips

300mag said:


> Did they test any of the 9's on mallards.



They never sold any 9s.  But they tested the 8s they sold on the turkey head ballistics gel.


----------



## Gadget

hawglips said:


> Too high, if you go by SAAMI standards.  Not high, if you go by CIP standards.





or not high enough if you go by Nitro standards.......


----------



## hawglips

Gadget said:


> or not high enough if you go by Nitro standards.......



They have their own standards it appears.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

Its common for a coyote to take follow up shots when shot with buckshot, dead coyote, or BB. Shot sizes that are tailor made for coyote. I've shot enough to know a person isn't going to kill them with any consistancy with bird shot unless they call them into spitting distance every time. If its true that one was killed at over 60 yards its a fluke, just like 90 yard gobblers but I'm starting to think your making this up as you go.


----------



## Gadget

hawglips said:


> I think these are the pictures you're referring to.





Looking at this you can clearly see the TSS #7 out performed the hevishot #5, I think it's safe to say that hevishot #4 would probably have a complete pass thru on all pellets if tested so you could easily draw the conclusion that TSS is equal to hevishot three sizes larger in penetration. 

The effectiveness of hevishot over lead has been proven over the last 10yrs and has been shown to be equal to lead about 2 sizes larger, this corresponds to what the TSS guys have found, all that is known about hevishot, and to what Hal's tests on tin have shown.............. they all show similar results.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

Just curious why you guys put so much faith in pictures taken off a manufactures website?

Most people don't buy a car just cause the commercial said a chevy was best do they? They test drive em.


----------



## striper commander

I have no doubt that TSS out perporms every shot out there. But when you use it in 9 shot I think that is another story. Look at the weight of the 9TSS shot compared to all the other HTL shot out there in 6 and 7 weights along with 6 lead. It weighs a lot less combine that with a low velocity and it is weak atleast in my gun.


----------



## Gadget

I've shot 5 turkey and 1 coyote with TSS 9x8's that Hal loaded for me. 3" 2oz loads.

all of the turkey went straight down with no problem, four of them were 15-30yds, one was 45. The coyote was 35 and dropped like a rock and was dead still in about 30 seconds.

The 45 yd turkey, I had him at 30yds but couldn't shoot because of hens, they had passed by me and were moving off, I was able to get to my knees and turn around, had to hold my gun several minutes free hand while on my knees, by the time the hens cleared he was at what I estimated to be 40yds, when I shot I was shaking pretty bad from lactic acid build up, shot low, broke both this legs and one of his wings, I had to stand on his neck to finish him off. I actually ranged it with my rangefinder to be 46 yds after I shot.


Being that this was a duplex load, it can't be proven which shot resulted in the kill, 8's or 9's, I will say I'm skeptical of the #9's too, I know they will kill out to at least 40, probably 50 but how dependable they are past that still is not proven to me. Because of that I will probably be hunting with straight 8's which have plenty of pellets and I know has the consistent killing power to give me at least a 10yd buffer while keeping a 40yd shooting limit.


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Its common for a coyote to take follow up shots when shot with buckshot, dead coyote, or BB. Shot sizes that are tailor made for coyote. I've shot enough to know a person isn't going to kill them with any consistancy with bird shot unless they call them into spitting distance every time. If its true that one was killed at over 60 yards its a fluke, just like 90 yard gobblers but I'm starting to think your making this up as you go.



Wis, I hate to keep correcting the stuff you make up and post on here, but no one ever claimed to have killed coyotes or killed turkeys at 90 yds with "bird shot" that I know of.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

Your right 9's are smaller than most guys use for bird shot.


----------



## striper commander

Thanks for letting me know how the loads worked for you. I had been wondering. That steady grip really helps with that acid build up I bet.


----------



## hawglips

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Just curious why you guys put so much faith in pictures taken off a manufactures website?




Adam, you're joking, right?  

Where's your pictures of patterns and penetration tests with TSS shot?  

Do I need to post mine up to answer your question, AGAIN?


----------



## BPR

300mag said:


> I have no doubt that TSS out perporms every shot out there. But when you use it in 9 shot I think that is another story. Look at the weight of the 9TSS shot compared to all the other HTL shot out there in 6 and 7 weights along with 6 lead. It weighs a lot less combine that with a low velocity and it is weak atleast in my gun.



I'd agree with that statement.  I don't doubt the shot, but just wonder why go all the way to size 9 shot?


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

BPR said:


> I'd agree with that statement.  I don't doubt the shot, but just wonder why go all the way to size 9 shot?



I agree completely. 
If they loaded it up with reasonable sizes and used it at reasonable distances we wouldn't even be having this debate.


----------



## Gadget

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I agree completely.
> If they loaded it up with reasonable sizes and used it at reasonable distances we wouldn't even be having this debate.





 I think a lot of you guys take Hal out of context when he talks about the long range shooting, he doesn't advocate long range shooting any more than I do. I think it's wrong and un-sporting to do it, he posts this information to prove to the effectiveness only.


----------



## wisturkeyhunter

hawglips said:


> He thought they were 65 yds.


Long range turkey snipin defined.


----------



## Turkey Comander

Public Land Prowler said:


> That's the difference between paper and bones/feathers.It is misleading when guys see all these hits,the thing is that small shot runs out of energy,and isnt as dependable at longer ranges...That's why I shoot #4's,and cleanly take birds out to 65yds.Would go past 55 with 5's,or 45 with 6's..just my experience.Smaller the shot the closer it would have to be for me.Doubt you did anything wrong,the pellets just ran out of steam..sure jed's cousin shot one at 80 steps with it,but I bet it wont happen regular enough to warrant trying it again.



This is the most sensible reply in this thread yet.


----------



## Gadget

BPR said:


> I'd agree with that statement.  I don't doubt the shot, but just wonder why go all the way to size 9 shot?





Because of the density it has a lot less pellets when compared to others of the same size, that's why #7 Nitro hevishot has about the same number of pellets as #9 TSS, actually #7 hevishot has more.

If you look at the tests with the mallards above you can see that the TSS is equal to about 3 sizes larger in hevishot........ BUT those tests were with the larger sizes. I do believe that as you get smaller and smaller the comparisons my not hold true because each time you go smaller a larger % of the pellet is reduced.

For example.........

for every shot size you go down .01 hundredth of an inch. Well one size down from #4 is a smaller percentage of the total pellet size when compared to going down one size from #8.


----------



## Turkey Comander

300mag said:


> I have no doubt that TSS out perporms every shot out there. But when you use it in 9 shot I think that is another story. Look at the weight of the 9TSS shot compared to all the other HTL shot out there in 6 and 7 weights along with 6 lead. It weighs a lot less combine that with a low velocity and it is weak atleast in my gun.



Didn't work too good on turkeys or alley cats did it ?


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## striper commander

Not for me it didn't.


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## Turkey Comander

I killed an alley cat with a shovel once.....


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## MKW

*...*

Granted, I have never shot any of this stuff(and probably never will), but I'd not be comfortable hunting with #9s of any kind of shot. I look at it like this...you can poke yourself in the thigh with a needle and it will "penetrate" very easily and if you poke yourself in the same thigh with an icepick, it's gonna do alot more damage and hurt alot more. 
I think the #7s are probably awesome, but that's about as small as I'd go.

Mike


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## hawglips

Gadget said:


> I think a lot of you guys take Hal out of context when he talks about the long range shooting, he doesn't advocate long range shooting any more than I do. I think it's wrong and un-sporting to do it, he posts this information to prove to the effectiveness only.



Rick, they all know that.  Just like TC cannot admit the article he wanted us to read actually refuted the point he was trying to make, it's quite obvious to me and any innocent bystander that they aren't interested in a serious or sincere discussion on the shot.  

So, I'm done entertaining silliness here.


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## sterlingworth

I think Hal And Rick both have done a lot of research and testing and are still fine tuning. Rome was not built in a day(at least thats what they say) and both will be the first to tell you that they are still working with different shot sizes and loads to get the one that performs best. Ive followed from day one when Hal asked the question if anyone had heard about TSS. Some of you guys are arguing just for arguments sake and don't really have a clue. One guy misses a bird with a shell he didnt load, doesnt know in fact which load he was shooting and the flood gates bust open. Then comes the long range kills, the ethics involved, etc. , etc. If someone gave me a shell and told me "this shell will kill a turkey at 90 yards" the first thing I would do is shoot at one 90 yards away. Who wouldnt? Not because I cant kill one closer, its just the fact that it is mind boggling to think about. I've missed and crippled lots of turkeys with all kinds of different sizes and brands of shell, and am still looking for that perfect one. You know its always the shell or the gun. Not the hunter, ever.


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## striper commander

I was shooting one of Hals shells. This (hunter) has never had a problem with other shells so I went back with what I have confidence in. I am through with this thread also.


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## ssm

I think the site has become  full of a group of people that want to do nothing more than stir up trouble.  I wish there was a house cleaning by the moderators.  

Guys used to ask questions and would get several responses to questions, the  guy could from formulate what he or she needed to do from purchasing camo, call choices, guns, and just good old advice.  

The guys that still post up good info for the forum members get bashed and ridiculed for whatever they say by a certain group.

I truly like the GON Forums and about 99 44/100 % of the members, I wish it would go back to the old way of discussions.


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## Gadget

300mag said:


> That steady grip really helps with that acid build up I bet.





why would you say that?


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## striper commander

well maybe not acid build up but less cramps in your hand from holding the gun a while.


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## Nicodemus

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Its common for a coyote to take follow up shots when shot with buckshot, dead coyote, or BB. Shot sizes that are tailor made for coyote. I've shot enough to know a person isn't going to kill them with any consistancy with bird shot unless they call them into spitting distance every time. If its true that one was killed at over 60 yards its a fluke, just like 90 yard gobblers but I'm starting to think your making this up as you go.





Ya`lls coyotes must be mighty tough, if you shoot em with buckshot, and then have to use follow up shots. 

Ours curl up and die purty easy, from most anything, if it`s put in the right place.


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## Gadget

300mag said:


> well maybe not acid build up but less cramps in your hand from holding the gun a while.





yes, it will definitely help with the cramps while holding on the knee, but does little to help with the lactic acid build up when trying to hold free hand on a gobblers head for 2 or 3 minutes.........


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## southGAlefty

ssm said:


> I think the site has become  full of a group of people that want to do nothing more than stir up trouble.  I wish there was a house cleaning by the moderators.
> 
> Guys used to ask questions and would get several responses to questions, the  guy could from formulate what he or she needed to do from purchasing camo, call choices, guns, and just good old advice.
> 
> The guys that still post up good info for the forum members get bashed and ridiculed for whatever they say by a certain group.
> 
> I truly like the GON Forums and about 99 44/100 % of the members, I wish it would go back to the old way of discussions.



^^^^ What he said...some of you guys are ridiculous. 

hawglips, for what its worth I enjoy reading about what you and Gadget are experimenting with, and this is coming from a guy that up until this year shot all his turkeys in his short turkey hunting career with a Remington 1100 shooting 2 3/4" Fiocchi Turkey Thunder #6s that are $4.99 a box


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## BPR

Gadget said:


> Because of the density it has a lot less pellets when compared to others of the same size, that's why #7 Nitro hevishot has about the same number of pellets as #9 TSS, actually #7 hevishot has more.
> 
> If you look at the tests with the mallards above you can see that the TSS is equal to about 3 sizes larger in hevishot........ BUT those tests were with the larger sizes. I do believe that as you get smaller and smaller the comparisons my not hold true because each time you go smaller a larger % of the pellet is reduced.
> 
> For example.........
> 
> for every shot size you go down .01 hundredth of an inch. Well one size down from #4 is a smaller percentage of the total pellet size when compared to going down one size from #8.



I understand the density and weight differences between the two.  But off the site, I saw that there were 250 pellets in an ounce of TSS #8's.  I didn't see the information on the 9's, but estimate it to be right at 300.  Compared to 135 in an ounce of lead #6's, it seems like there are plenty of pellets in a load of TSS 7s or 8's.  Do you really need 600 pellets?


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## wisturkeyhunter

Nicodemus said:


> Ya`lls coyotes must be mighty tough, if you shoot em with buckshot, and then have to use follow up shots.
> 
> Ours curl up and die purty easy, from most anything, if it`s put in the right place.



There is a reason alot of companies and callers are putting alot of time and money into finding good coyote loads for a shotgun. They don't just curl up and die. To say that screams that you've not done much dedicated coyote calling. 
A big male like this won't curl up and die unless you break some pretty heavy bone.


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## Nicodemus

wisturkeyhunter said:


> There is a reason alot of companies and callers are putting alot of time and money into finding good coyote loads for a shotgun. They don't just curl up and die. To say that screams that you've not done much dedicated coyote calling.
> A big male like this won't curl up and die unless you break some pretty heavy bone.





I reckon I havent fooled with em much. Just since the mid 1970s.


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## wisturkeyhunter

Lots of guys  hunting since the 70's and they couldn't hunt there way out of a 5 gallon bucket. Coyotes are tough and anyone who has shot more than a few would know that.


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## Nicodemus

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Lots of guys  hunting since the 70's and they couldn't hunt there way out of a 5 gallon bucket. Coyotes are tough and anyone who has shot more than a few would know that.


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## wisturkeyhunter

Keep laughing but you've pretty much told everyone how much you know with the curl up and die comment. 

I'd almost bet you could count the amount of coyote you've shotguns on your one hand.


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## Nicodemus

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Keep laughing but you've pretty much told everyone how much you know with the curl up and die comment.
> 
> I'd almost bet you could count the amount of coyote you've shotguns on your one hand.





Yep.


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## Gadget

BPR said:


> I understand the density and weight differences between the two.  But off the site, I saw that there were 250 pellets in an ounce of TSS #8's.  I didn't see the information on the 9's, but estimate it to be right at 300.  Compared to 135 in an ounce of lead #6's, it seems like there are plenty of pellets in a load of TSS 7s or 8's.  Do you really need 600 pellets?




Lead #6 has 225 pellets per ounce, you're thinking of lead #4 that has 134 an ounce.

Do you need 600? No but if I can shoot a load that has 600 and maintain enough energy to kill to 60yds, giving me a 20yd buffer then that's the way I'll go.

With TSS the #7's only have 183 per ounce that's not enough to get the pattern densities I'm looking for.


BTW........ Nitro hevishot 7's have 342 per ounce compared to lead 7 1/2's at 350, there should be alot less pellets than that in the hevishot 7's but because some of them are actually 8's and 9's they have a higher count. These guys that are shooting Nitro 7's are really shooting 7x8x9's, I've cut them open and miced them myself. Gunn Docc cut open a few too and miced them all the way down to #10's


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## Double Gun

ssm said:


> I think the site has become  full of a group of people that want to do nothing more than stir up trouble.  I wish there was a house cleaning by the moderators.
> 
> Guys used to ask questions and would get several responses to questions, the  guy could from formulate what he or she needed to do from purchasing camo, call choices, guns, and just good old advice.
> 
> The guys that still post up good info for the forum members get bashed and ridiculed for whatever they say by a certain group.
> 
> I truly like the GON Forums and about 99 44/100 % of the members, I wish it would go back to the old way of discussions.



I got to agree with you on some of that. But like all places you have your click on the internet forums, thats why there are so many of them. Folks that think alike have a stong bond amongst themselves and stand relentless if others come questioning and challenging. Thats known as standing up for one who thinks its right. 

I for one thought this was a great thread with input from all sides negative, positive, obstudent, argumentive. In fact now that I picked up a little more info I have looked once at the TSS site, although I will never use the stuff in any shot size, I got 4 grandkids that may some day due to restictions on a lot of things. So I will continue to try and understand both pro and cons of both sides. Right now I can not agree with the 8/9, now the 7 at close range I have not the problem.

I was the same when Heavy shot first came out, questioning why? Well I sined, I even got an 870 wingmaster, camo dipped, barrel adjustment for point of aim point of impact, trigger adjusted to a touch, Rhino .665 and the Heavy shot. I tried it on and off a few years but always went back to my doubles, just was not me. Plus I felt this forbidding presence from the turkey Gods.


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## striper commander

What kind of velocity are those nitro 7,8,9's going since ya'll talked about there pressure being off the chart. What length barrel was used, in the loads I used during testing.


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## blong

I shot and killed and saw several killed with Tss 1 7/8oz 8's last year and here are the stats.
Mine
Ms
27 yds dead
38 yds dead
40 yds had to tackle 3 pellets in head(bent barrel different story)
Mo
17 yds dead
Ks
12 yds dead
35 yds dead
20 yds running, cripple, back to the bent barrel thing
Friends
49 yds dead
56 yds dead
28 yds dead
38 yds dead
no crips from friends
I believe these loads to be the most effective load I have ever shot or seen shot. The pellet size is small but when it goes completly thru skulls and vertebrate, it does not matter. These birds were killed with modified and full chokes.


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## striper commander

Thanks for the info Blong. You had a good season.


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## BPR

Gadget said:


> Lead #6 has 225 pellets per ounce, you're thinking of lead #4 that has 134 an ounce.
> 
> Do you need 600? No but if I can shoot a load that has 600 and maintain enough energy to kill to 60yds, giving me a 20yd buffer then that's the way I'll go.
> 
> With TSS the #7's only have 183 per ounce that's not enough to get the pattern densities I'm looking for.
> 
> 
> BTW........ Nitro hevishot 7's have 342 per ounce compared to lead 7 1/2's at 350, there should be alot less pellets than that in the hevishot 7's but because some of them are actually 8's and 9's they have a higher count. These guys that are shooting Nitro 7's are really shooting 7x8x9's, I've cut them open and miced them myself. Gunn Docc cut open a few too and miced them all the way down to #10's




Yes you are correct.  I was looking at the wrong row.  That puts the numbers closer togehter.  Thanks for catching that.  

And I've read your post in the past about the different sizes of shot in Nitros.  I think one difference is that Nitro's arent using 9's exclusively.


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## Gadget

BPR said:


> Yes you are correct.  I was looking at the wrong row.  That puts the numbers closer togehter.  Thanks for catching that.
> 
> And I've read your post in the past about the different sizes of shot in Nitros.  I think one difference is that Nitro's arent using 9's exclusively.




It's not Nitro it's the manufacturer of the shot , Environ Metals, they make all the hevishot including hevi-13, which some argue is the same thing as hevishot. Environ claims that the hevishot is 12g/cc while the hevi-13 is 13g/cc, although some have counted and miced them to be the same while others have noticed a difference. The way they change their shells all the time it wouldn't surprise me either way, probably depending on what lot you have it will vary some, I tend to believe they are one in the same and the hevi-13 is just a marketing ploy to try to set "their" hevishot above all the other that they sell to people like Nitro.

I did cut one of the hevi-13's #6's open a few months back, can't remember what the pellet count per ounce was, but they did seem to be more true to size than the others I've cut open, most were 6's but there were some 5's, 7's and 8's.


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## Turkey Comander

300mag said:


> I was shooting one of Hals shells. This (hunter) has never had a problem with other shells so I went back with what I have confidence in. I am through with this thread also.



If nothing else this thread saved one turkey hunter from this nonsense.


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## trkyhntr70

ssm said:


> I think the site has become  full of a group of people that want to do nothing more than stir up trouble.  I wish there was a house cleaning by the moderators.
> 
> Guys used to ask questions and would get several responses to questions, the  guy could from formulate what he or she needed to do from purchasing camo, call choices, guns, and just good old advice.
> 
> The guys that still post up good info for the forum members get bashed and ridiculed for whatever they say by a certain group.
> 
> I truly like the GON Forums and about 99 44/100 % of the members, I wish it would go back to the old way of discussions.



AMEN !! 
I wish it was like it used to be.......
Its a shame to see fellow hunters arguing like this.


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## short stop

Im using   T9s   in my 20 Ga's ..

     Im confident   with   what Ive seen on paper , metal , and dead birds  so far to   use'em with complete  cofidence .

   If it  suits  your needs   then use it .. it not  then  dont ... bout that simple .


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## southGAlefty

Turkey Comander said:


> If nothing else this thread saved one turkey hunter from this nonsense.



Wasn't he the OP?? Pretty sure he made that choice before he ever stroked a key my friend..and that decision was based on personal experience I might add. 

I applaud him for forming his opinion the way he ought to, by trying it out to see if he likes it. All the pictures in the world and even the research that has been done on this subject don't hold a candle to personal experience. The bottom line is this:

If you don't want to use TSS...DON'T. But please don't fault the folks that take the time to test it and then make an educated decision on whether or not they use it.


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## silvestris

trkyhntr70 said:


> AMEN !!
> I wish it was like it used to be.......
> Its a shame to see fellow hunters arguing like this.



I think the learning curve increases dramatically when there is strong debate.  

One of the main definitions of "forum" is:

b : a public meeting place for open discussion c : a medium (as a newspaper or online service) of open discussion or expression of ideas 


It is often that ideas or opinions will differ and if one side or the other of a particular opinion is stifled, then the medium ceases to be a forum.

If one holds a particularly strong opinion on a subject, that person is unlikely to immediately change his or her opinion.  However, over time opinions can change.  Some strongly held opinions are just wrong and would hopefully change over time.  Without sincere debate, change is unlikely to occur.


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## Turkey Comander

And I thought we were just supposed to high five and atta'boy everyone.


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## rex upshaw

silvestris said:


> Without sincere debate, change is unlikely to occur.



and this is where the issue is, "sincere" debate.  the loads in question are not ones that are obtainable through purchase and are one's that are being used by folks who are handloading.  these guys know what the shells are capable of and have done extensive testing.  if someone chooses to take a shot that is outside of what the shell is capable of, that is on them.  just as it is on any hunter who picks up brand x off the shelf and doesn't take the time to see what the load is capable of.  

i don't see any of these guys trying to push anyone into trying and buy any loads from them.  if it works for them, then so be it.  if you really want to debate the subject and are against the idea of the load, it would probably make more sense to actually try the loads yourself, than to just say that it will, or will not work.  until then, the banter is somewhat meaningless.  

there are going to be people pushing the envelope with distance, regardless of what load is being used.  that might be someone trying to shoot out past 40 with a 20 gauge, just as it could be someone shooting out past 60 with a 12.  as long as the people who are shooting the loads have done responsible testing, i think the bashing of these guys is unwarranted.  from what i can tell, these guys do far more testing with their loads then 75% of the hunters out there.  

i don't shoot the tss loads, but looking at the results, i could see the argument and understand why some people do.


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## Turkey Comander

Next guy claiming 90 yard kills with fAiry dust in his shells I'm just going to give him an atta'bOy.


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## rex upshaw

Turkey Comander said:


> Next guy claiming 90 yard kills with fAiry dust in his shells I'm just going to give him an atta'bOy.



that'd be the first positive thing you've posted.


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## Turkey Comander

Go ahead test me..


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## ssm

TC, what do you shoot?


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## TurkeyManiac

ssm said:


> TC, what do you shoot?



My guess


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## Turkey Comander

ssm said:


> TC, what do you shoot?



Is this a test ?

I shoot alot of guns.....I don't shoot turkeys at 90 yds.


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## Gaswamp

Nitro said:


> I have no comment.......




I concur.


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## ssm

Maniac, thats the post of the year!


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## BrowningTech

ssm said:


> I think the site has become  full of a group of people that want to do nothing more than stir up trouble.  I wish there was a house cleaning by the moderators.
> 
> Guys used to ask questions and would get several responses to questions, the  guy could from formulate what he or she needed to do from purchasing camo, call choices, guns, and just good old advice.
> 
> The guys that still post up good info for the forum members get bashed and ridiculed for whatever they say by a certain group.
> 
> I truly like the GON Forums and about 99 44/100 % of the members, I wish it would go back to the old way of discussions.





wish they would do a cleaning, the haters like TC are ruining this forum. He's been banned on 4 other forums for a reason.

These guys are breaking new ground testing new loads and shot nothing wrong with that, wish I had the time to do the same. Send me some of that TSS #9, I'd love to test some out, after reading all the info and seeing all the testing I have no doubt that it's killer load.


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## BrowningTech

Turkey Comander said:


> I shoot alot of guns.....I don't shoot turkeys at 90 yds.




So what , neither did hawglips, so why do you keep bringing it up


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## Turkey Comander

300mag said:


> I am not trying to start anything here but wanted to get this off my chest. Last year on opening day I called in two birds and I shot one of them at 50 yards standing on top of a big hill they were strutting and did not want to come any closer. I was shooting TSS 8X9 shot getting 300 plus pellets in a ten inch circle at 40 yards. I had my scope sighted in perfect. I shot one of the birds and it started jumping around and flopped down the cliff that was behind it. It took me about five minutes to get to the bird because of the rough terrain. When I found him he was looking at me flopping around in a creek trying to get away from me. I shot him again to finish him off from about twenty yards and it did not even bust his head up much. Then the next week I shot at a bird at around 40 yards and it flew off. It was running and I am assuming I missed that bird. I put up the last shell I had of it and went to something else. I had been having a small varmit getting into things around the house and I saw it one day in the edge of the yard about fifty yards away and I decided to try and shoot it with my last TSS shell. I shot it and it jumped around and run off. I could not find it anywhere so I figured it had run off and died. Well a few days later it was back and in the same spot. I had some old remington three inch hevi shot #6's laying in the gun cabinet and put it in the gun and shot the varmit and rolled it, it killed it dead. I know this is probably not the norm with what everybody experiances with TSS but this is what happened to me using it. I have killed a lot of turkeys with lead 6's at over 50 yards also. I don't know why it did not work for me. I would like to test some more of it just to see what happens because I am amazed at how it busted up the metal targets I shot at 40 yards but would not kill a turkey at 50. I have even thought about reloading some of it to try again because I can't get the shells anymore.




Here's an idea rather than trash me try commenting on the thread.


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## poorcountrypreacher

I've just read this thread from beginning to end at one time. Looks like the same arguments from the same people for the most part, but a few new ones involved. Since my name was mentioned, I want to clear up things on the 67 yd flying shot:

I shot the turkey at 35 yds with the first shot and clearly hit him, but I could tell by the way he went sideways that I had not made a killing shot. He was way around to my right and I couldn't rest the gun on my knee, but it was just a poor shot by me. I ran to the turkey and when I got to where I could see, he was already airborn and getting away. He was flying erratically, and it was clear he was hit hard, but he was certainly getting away. Seeing that, I shot him flying and killed him; he was 67 yds away. He didn't glide any after being shot, he was close to that distance when I shot him.

If I hadn't hit the turkey with the first shot, I certainly would never have tried the flying shot. When cleaning the turkey, I found that my 1st shot was low and to the left, and only put 5 or 6 shot in his breast. They penetrated completely and left holes in his breastbone, resulting in his erratic flying.

FWIW, I hunted in 6 states last season and shot at 12 turkeys with #8 TSS. 10 of them dropped as dead as one can be, one I killed with the flying shot, and there was a link earlier in the thread that told about the one I missed running. That's enough testing to give me a great deal of confidence in my load, and I'm gonna shoot exactly the same load this season.

Good hunting to all.


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## Brad C.

"And now we know the rest of the story."  

Thanks for setting the record straight.  

I just hope Hal will continue to share with us here.  He is a wealth of knowledge I can assure you of that.


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## mjfortner

Thats exactly what I was thinking about the flying shot. I guess we can conclude that every load designed for turkey can be efective. Use what you like and find your weapons limitations (as well as your own as a marksman).


----------

