# A question for everyone



## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

I was talking to a friend the other day who is a baptist preacher. During our conversation, i heard him mutter a derogratory word for a homosexual. According to him, homosexuality is a choice made by man from temptation. I just find this hard to take. Of course, me being me, I surely wasnt going to start a debate about the subject as he is someone whom I respect and have known for 15 years.

I guess im asking what your thoughts are on it whether your Christian, Aetheist, whatever. Just wanted to hear the opinions. Is it something your born with or is it a choice to become that way?

Me personally, I cannot see how this is a choice. I dont know how someone can wake up one day and choose to be homosexual. Though I dont have any scientific data, I would think its some sort of chromosome mix up or something. Its never interested me, so Ive never researched it.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

it is not a choice !!! do you think people would go through all the ridicule and seen as an outcast if they did not really have those feelings for people of the same sex..i know several homosexual people and they have known since they were young kids ...i am not talking about bisexual people that just think hey i think i will try this . i am talking about people who have never been attracted to anybody of the opposite sex at all , and only seek like minded people ....


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## centerpin fan (Sep 15, 2011)

You must have missed this thread:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=626560


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

I know 3 guys from ELEMENTARY school... who seemed a little 'off' to me in 3rd grade... who are homosexual. When saw them as adults and realized they were homosexual I realized it was the maybe feminine type way of holding themselves that I saw as kids. 

Not all homosexuals are like that, I know. I'm not trying to use stereotypes. That makes me think it's not a choice... I know I have the choice, but it's no choice for me to be attracted to women and not men... Then my wife... well... She has the choice to like both... SHHH..

I don't like homosexuality, but as long as guys aren't forcing me to be too close it, who cares. I definitely don't think it's a "sin." Do what you want. I see it similarly to Christians. Do it in the comfort of your own home, don't bring it to me.


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## dawg2 (Sep 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> I was talking to a friend the other day who is a baptist preacher. During our conversation, i heard him mutter a derogratory word for a homosexual. According to him, homosexuality is a choice made by man from temptation. I just find this hard to take. Of course, me being me, I surely wasnt going to start a debate about the subject as he is someone whom I respect and have known for 15 years.
> 
> I guess im asking what your thoughts are on it whether your Christian, Aetheist, whatever. Just wanted to hear the opinions. Is it something your born with or is it a choice to become that way?
> 
> Me personally, I cannot see how this is a choice. I dont know how someone can wake up one day and choose to be homosexual. Though I dont have any scientific data, I would think its some sort of chromosome mix up or something. Its never interested me, so Ive never researched it.


Ironically, I bet he wouldn't be so spiteful towards those that commit adultery


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## GAGE (Sep 15, 2011)

I have a few homosexuals in my extended family,  there is no way they or any other homosexual  chose to be so.   You can choose to experiment, but you can not choose who you love.


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> You must have missed this thread:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=626560



Dang I must have. And thats a long thread!


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## centerpin fan (Sep 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Dang I must have. And thats a long thread!



Yeah, I just took another look at it.  I had forgotten how long it is.  There's some good info in there if you just want to skim it.

Back to your original point, the minister should not have used a derogatory term for homosexual.


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Yeah, I just took another look at it.  I had forgotten how long it is.  There's some good info in there if you just want to skim it.
> 
> Back to your original point, the minister should not have used a derogatory term for homosexual.



This is true, but it wasnt a real bad one. One that was used alot in the 50s and kind of an excepted term. Now its not considerd PC.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> This is true, but it wasnt a real bad one. One that was used alot in the 50s and kind of an excepted term. Now its not considerd PC.



I'm pretty sure I know what you're talking about.

BTW, here's another recent (shorter) thread along the same lines:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=633564&highlight=


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## gaspur1 (Sep 15, 2011)

They don't have a choice , it's a birth defect since we all start out as female . The BIBLE says it is a sin , so if you believe the bible it's a sin.


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## slimbo (Sep 15, 2011)

I dont care either way and everybody is a sinner.......even a preacher, but I just wanted to give a shout out to my man TIVO.  What up homie.  Lets go shoot some ducks in the face.  See ya saturday!


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## slimbo (Sep 15, 2011)

And by the way, that hat in your picture makes me think you are one of those people you speak of in this thread.....Maybe I dont wanna sit in a duck blind with you.  Ill keep my waders on.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2011)

I think a better topic would be; How you and the baptist preacher are friends. Most baptist preachers I know would not respect your mentality to decide what you believe.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

I think some are born with it and some are not.  I also think that some kids are "wired" that way at a young age because of their environment.


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I think a better topic would be; How you and the baptist preacher are friends. Most baptist preachers I know would not respect your mentality to decide what you believe.



Im not sure if i am supposed to take this offensivley or not. But to answer the question, I used to attend his church. I wouldnt consider us close or anything, but we do conversate often as we live in a rural community with three gas stations. So I see him alot. Im sure he doesnt like my position, but he doesnt ask either.


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## vowell462 (Sep 15, 2011)

slimbo said:


> I dont care either way and everybody is a sinner.......even a preacher, but I just wanted to give a shout out to my man TIVO.  What up homie.  Lets go shoot some ducks in the face.  See ya saturday!



See ya saturday. Weve been playing phone tag. Lets go kill sum birds! And dont be hating on my beanie, its warm.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 15, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Im not sure if i am supposed to take this offensivley or not. But to answer the question, I used to attend his church. I wouldnt consider us close or anything, but we do conversate often as we live in a rural community with three gas stations. So I see him alot. Im sure he doesnt like my position, but he doesnt ask either.



Most i've known are aggresive, or should I say "pushy" [preachers] In the end, it usually drives things south.


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## TTom (Sep 15, 2011)

More and more evidence piles up that it is not a choice, that there is some level of biology at work. 

The next question is scarey though. What happens if they figure out what that biology is and it turns out that the technology to "fix" it is doable?


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## TTom (Sep 15, 2011)

More and more evidence piles up that it is not a choice, that there is some level of biology at work. 

The next question is scarey though. What happens if they figure out what that biology is and it turns out that the technology to "fix" it is doable?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

Deep Tom... I think there are plenty of people that will want to do it.... Maybe it will turn in to an issue like abortion.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I think some are born with it and some are not.  I also think that some kids are "wired" that way at a young age because of their environment.



I don't think environments wire people... They can change people, but not wire them.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

gaspur1 said:


> They don't have a choice , it's a birth defect since we all start out as female . The BIBLE says it is a sin , so if you believe the bible it's a sin.



Defect? How is a homosexual defective other than they don't choose to breed naturally? Does that mean hetero's who choose not to have kids were born with a similar defect?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 15, 2011)

this is what I want to know....

Lesbians....

If a woman is attracted to women, then why do 90+% of them cut their hair short and make themselves look like men????????    If they are attracted to women, then they should make themselves as beautiful as they can....makeup...long flowing hair, etc.     Not the butch type!   When I see lesbians who really resemble men, I see perversion.

Same goes for gay men....why do they talk, dress, walk feminine if they like men?   I a man (woman) is attracted to a man (woman) that dresses like the opposite sex, then they are, by all rights, heterosexual.

just my 2 cents...    this is one best left for y'all philosophers!


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't think environments wire people... They can change people, but not wire them.



Thought patterns are "cemented" as we advance through childhood.  Take religion, when you first took the leap and said out loud that you didn't believe in God, you might have been secretly looking upward for the lightning.  You call it indoctrination, there is a reason your childhood beliefs are so difficult to discard (and I know somebody is going to tell me how easy it was, I am talking generally, not universally). 

Somewhere in the back of my mind is something I learned in psych about how we learn to think.  The connections our brains make glue together in some way.  For a male child, having a "daddy void," or a domineering mother might make them naturally seek affection in abnormal places.  As they get older, this translates in sexual impulses.  And then, they believe they must be gay. 

There are many other circumstances.  I believe it can be either nature or nurture, depending on the situation.


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## tween_the_banks (Sep 15, 2011)

We've altered this world with our sciences and modified foods and hormones and altered genetics that I'm surprised people aren't trying to marry dogs or deer haha.
On a more serious note, I have gay friends and one of my best friends is a preacher.
I hate rude behavior in a man, and your preacher friend was rude for whatever word he used...


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> If a woman is attracted to women, then why do 90+% of them cut their hair short and make themselves look like men????????    If they are attracted to women, then they should make themselves as beautiful as they can....makeup...long flowing hair, etc.     Not the butch type!   When I see lesbians who really resemble men, I see perversion.



I have wondered this myself.

My wife and I had lesbian friends where one was the "man" and the other was quite feminine.  I had many conversations with them about their lifestyle, in the end, I was convinced one was born that way, and the other turned that direction because of childhood events.  

Interesting thing about this couple, they were die-hard conservatives and Christians who raised their adopted children in church.  They were very much against the stereotype.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thought patterns are "cemented" as we advance through childhood.  Take religion, when you first took the leap and said out loud that you didn't believe in God, you might have been secretly looking upward for the lightning.  You call it indoctrination, there is a reason your childhood beliefs are so difficult to discard (and I know somebody is going to tell me how easy it was, I am talking generally, not universally).
> 
> Somewhere in the back of my mind is something I learned in psych about how we learn to think.  The connections our brains make glue together in some way.  For a male child, having a "daddy void," or a domineering mother might make them naturally seek affection in abnormal places.  As they get older, this translates in sexual impulses.  And then, they believe they must be gay.
> 
> There are many other circumstances.  I believe it can be either nature or nurture, depending on the situation.



well how do gay couples raise straight kids then ?


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> well how do gay couples raise straight kids then ?



The same way straight couples raise gay kids, I suppose.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> The same way straight couples raise gay kids, I suppose.



i'm just going by your environment theory


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## centerpin fan (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Interesting thing about this couple, they were die-hard conservatives and Christians who raised their adopted children in church.



What church (denomination)?


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> i'm just going by your environment theory



Just because a couple is gay does not mean that they will indoctrinate gayness.  The lesbian couple I mentioned earlier encouraged their boys to be boys, and tried their best not to indoctrinate.

I know a lesbian who went that way because of distrust for men resulting from childhood trauma, she hated men, and as she grew older, her only place of trust was women. She says she did not "feel" different before the traumatic events.   I'm just saying that environment can play a role.  It is not always genetic.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

You're right... Big time... I don't think indoctrination wires us though. I guess it's just terminology but I think we're on a similar page.



JB0704 said:


> Thought patterns are "cemented" as we advance through childhood.  Take religion, when you first took the leap and said out loud that you didn't believe in God, you might have been secretly looking upward for the lightning.  You call it indoctrination, there is a reason your childhood beliefs are so difficult to discard (and I know somebody is going to tell me how easy it was, I am talking generally, not universally).
> 
> Somewhere in the back of my mind is something I learned in psych about how we learn to think.  The connections our brains make glue together in some way.  For a male child, having a "daddy void," or a domineering mother might make them naturally seek affection in abnormal places.  As they get older, this translates in sexual impulses.  And then, they believe they must be gay.
> 
> There are many other circumstances.  I believe it can be either nature or nurture, depending on the situation.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> What church (denomination)?



Non-denominational.  It is a liberal Church in Atlanta which has a high gay attendance.  I am happy they found a pace to be accepted, lets save the debate over that for another forum.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Just because a couple is gay does not mean that they will indoctrinate gayness.  The lesbian couple I mentioned earlier encouraged their boys to be boys, and tried their best not to indoctrinate.
> 
> I know a lesbian who went that way because of distrust for men resulting from childhood trauma, she hated men, and as she grew older, her only place of trust was women. She says she did not "feel" different before the traumatic events.   I'm just saying that environment can play a role.  It is not always genetic.



she is not a true lesbian ...you are talking about someone who had a traumatic experience with a male and found comfort with another female ... a true lesbian is genetic , they know from an early age and have no sexual attraction to a male ...this comes from several homosexuals friends  i know and homosexuals they know , that knew at an early age ,that they were gay


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## centerpin fan (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> It is a liberal Church in Atlanta which has a high gay attendance.



I figured that.  How does their conservatism fit in in a church like that?  I'm wondering because a friend of mine from college was planning on becoming a United Church of Christ minister.  That denom is very liberal and my friend was very conservative.  I never really understood how that was gonna work out.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> she is not a true lesbian ...you are talking about someone who had a traumatic experience with a male and found comfort with another female ... a true lesbian is genetic , they know from an early age and have no sexual attraction to a male ...this comes from several homosexuals i know and homosexuals they know , that knew at an early age ,that they were gay



Ok, I didn't know we were distinguishing between straight folks who act like lesbians all the time and true lesbians.

It's just that she had no attraction to males.  Her childhood experienced "wired" (for lack of a better term) her against that.


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I figured that.  How does their conservatism fit in in a church like that?  I'm wondering because a friend of mine from college was planning on becoming a United Church of Christ minister.  That denom is very liberal and my friend was very conservative.  I never really understood how that was gonna work out.



Well, in faith, they believe that God is a God of grace, and as such, will understand their predicament.  One of them, at least, truly believes she knew she was gay as early as five.

I don't know how their politics play in a church like that.  Good question, I will ask next time I see them.  I do know that they are way to the right of most folks I know.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, I didn't know we were distinguishing between straight folks who act like lesbians all the time and true lesbians.
> 
> It's just that she had no attraction to males.  Her childhood experienced "wired" (for lack of a better term) her against that.



the gay community calls bi-sexual's greedy because they take up potential mates,but i don't think they could blame your friend for the way  she feels..i am not trying to argue with you , just letting you know what i have heard ..


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> the gay community calls bi-sexual's greedy because they take up potential mates,but i don't think they could blame your friend for the way  she feels..



Yea, she got dealt a pretty bad hand in life.  It is people like her, and a few of my other gay friends, who I think about when I hear people call them derogatory names.  It isn't right.  I don't get their lifestyle, but it is not mine to judge.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Yea, she got dealt a pretty bad hand in life.  It is people like her, and a few of my other gay friends, who I think about when I hear people call them derogatory names.  It isn't right.  I don't get their lifestyle, but it is not mine to judge.



1 of my lesbian friends , has 4 sisters that are gay too , and they all knew at an early age ...there are 10 kids in the family with mom and dad both in the picture ...


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## JB0704 (Sep 15, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> 1 of my lesbian friends , has 4 sisters that are gay too , and they all knew at an early age ...there are 10 kids in the family with mom and dad both in the picture ...



Then that might be a case for nature.  I believe both nature and environment could be the cause for different people, not necessarily the same people.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

I have a homosexual guy friend, who I spent a week with out of town on business and actually enjoyed to a certain extent.. who is about to be a Lutheran minister. He's a very nice guy. He's smart, funny and respectful. I've actually worked with him for a long time, and aside from his querkynes I never KNEW he was homosexual until that business trip. Although he is very spiritual in the lutheran scence, and is homosexual, I like the guy.


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## Throwback (Sep 15, 2011)

If it's not a sin (choice)  God will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah. 

T


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## Throwback (Sep 15, 2011)

so if people don't "choose" to be homosexual due to fear of being ridiculed, but are born that way, what about pedophiles? Certainly they are ridiculed more than homosexuals, so then they must be "born" that way too, or that is the way we could excuse it. And if they can't help it, why should it be a crime or considered unacceptable, using ya'lls logic? 

T


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## Throwback (Sep 15, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I have a homosexual guy friend, who I spent a week with out of town on business and actually enjoyed to a certain extent.. who is about to be a Lutheran minister. He's a very nice guy. He's smart, funny and respectful. I've actually worked with him for a long time, and aside from his querkynes I never KNEW he was homosexual until that business trip. Although he is very spiritual in the lutheran scence, and is homosexual, I like the guy.



I have had homosexual male friends. I have lesbian friends I have literally trusted my life with. I liked them all. That don't mean it's right. 

T


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 15, 2011)

Throwback said:


> so if people don't "choose" to be homosexual due to fear of being ridiculed, but are born that way, what about pedophiles? Certainly they are ridiculed more than homosexuals, so then they must be "born" that way too, or that is the way we could excuse it. And if they can't help it, why should it be a crime or considered unacceptable, using ya'lls logic?
> 
> T



T, I have nothing to say about that.. It's a sensitive subject for me, and I see what you're saying.


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## JFS (Sep 15, 2011)

Throwback said:


> so if people don't "choose" to be homosexual due to fear of being ridiculed, but are born that way, what about pedophiles? Certainly they are ridiculed more than homosexuals, so then they must be "born" that way too, or that is the way we could excuse it. And if they can't help it, why should it be a crime or considered unacceptable, using ya'lls logic?
> 
> T



Because there is a victim.

I always wonder about people who say it's a choice.  This is the internet so you don't know what people look like, but I can't help but wonder if there are really a bunch of middle age, slightly paunchy guys out there reading GON thinking "man, that Brad Pitt is hot and I'd love to get in his pants but I don't cause it'd be wrong".   Not sure how you get to "choice" unless you feel you like you could go either way.   I can't imagine it so I say nature, but maybe there are more people in play for nurture than I think.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 16, 2011)

Throwback said:


> so if people don't "choose" to be homosexual due to fear of being ridiculed, but are born that way, what about pedophiles? Certainly they are ridiculed more than homosexuals, so then they must be "born" that way too, or that is the way we could excuse it. And if they can't help it, why should it be a crime or considered unacceptable, using ya'lls logic?
> 
> T



because they are harming children..nobody is forcing anybody to be gay ...


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

JFS said:


> Because there is a victim.



X2.  I have read that a pedophile cannot be "cured."  But I don't care.  There is a victim involved.  Straight men can't go around using their natural inclinations to justify rape.  

If two gay guys get gay together, there is no victim.  That is the difference.


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## Greaserbilly (Sep 16, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Ironically, I bet he wouldn't be so spiteful towards those that commit adultery



I was just thinking that.
A lot of Baptist preachers do seem to end up on TV crying and saying "I have sinned" don't they?



> it is not a choice !!! do you think people would go through all the ridicule and seen as an outcast



Their position is-

- God says it's wrong
- If it's a sin it must be a choice, a God that would make someone a certain way and then condemn him or her would be monstrous. Akin to saying all redheads will burn in a certain very hot afterlife that gets censored here, etc.
- Therefore ANY evidence to the contrary must be discarded.

Now, I've said in another thread about how it's becoming increasingly held that the old "gay = sin" argument is a result of old prejudice, mistranslation and such as opposed to a genuine condemnation. For me, that's a good sign - not that it "celebrates and excuses sin" but it brings things more in line with what a just and loving God would do.

I am holding my tongue, still got some feelers out to some Greek scholars on some translation notes. But the end result is, all the refs we have for a given word are at best a GUESS one way or the other, just that we've come to accept one GUESS as canon.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 16, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> A lot of Baptist preachers do seem to end up on TV crying and saying "I have sinned" don't they?



I've never seen any Baptist preacher doing that.  If you're talking about Jimmy Swaggart, he is not a Baptist.  




Greaserbilly said:


> I am holding my tongue, still got some feelers out to some Greek scholars on some translation notes.



I've been waiting patiently.


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## JB0704 (Sep 16, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I've never seen any Baptist preacher doing that.  If you're talking about Jimmy Swaggart, he is not a Baptist.



I have seen a few Baptist preachers do this in person.....


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## centerpin fan (Sep 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I have seen a few Baptist preachers do this in person.....



I don't doubt it.  Baptist preachers are not without sin.  I just didn't want Jimmy Swaggart's sin to be applied to an entire denomination of which he had never been a member.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2011)

I've seen lots of evidence during elementary school that supports the fact that some people are born with an attraction to the same sex.  Males who are very feminine.  Even at 4 years old.  I grew up with a set of twins who were in that category.  One has died of aids.  The other has remained celibate for his entire life because of his religious beliefs.

Do an internet search of hermaphrodites.  Birth defects where a newborn boy actually has all the plumbing of both sexes.  Many different variations.

We're all living in a world of birth defects and chromesome problems.  No telling what's causing it.


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## bullethead (Sep 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> We're all living in a world of birth defects and chromesome problems.  No telling what's causing it.



Intelligent Design?

It is more of a miracle that a baby is born "normal"(physically&mentally) than one that is not.


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## Throwback (Sep 16, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> because they are harming children..nobody is forcing anybody to be gay ...



but they were BORN that way. They "can't HELP it", they are BOTH victims. 

check out how many "gay" people were victims. 

and the APA recently has started a push to destigmatize pedophiles. 
T


T


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## Throwback (Sep 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I've seen lots of evidence during elementary school that supports the fact that some people are born with an attraction to the same sex.  Males who are very feminine.  Even at 4 years old.  I grew up with a set of twins who were in that category.  One has died of aids.  The other has remained celibate for his entire life because of his religious beliefs.
> 
> Do an internet search of hermaphrodites.  Birth defects where a newborn boy actually has all the plumbing of both sexes.  Many different variations.
> 
> We're all living in a world of birth defects and chromesome problems.  No telling what's causing it.






So all through God's word he condemns homosexuality, to the point of destroying cities for it, and now suddenly we are so smart as to know that they were born that way and "can't help it". I would think if that were it and the Bible was the infallible Word of God that would have made it in there somewhere. 

how arrogant we have become. 

T


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## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Intelligent Design?
> 
> It is more of a miracle that a baby is born "normal"(physically&mentally) than one that is not.



Smoking causes lung cancer also.
Birth control pills use to cause birth defects.


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## bullethead (Sep 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Smoking causes lung cancer also.
> Birth control pills use to cause birth defects.



Agreed.    ???


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## Ronnie T (Sep 16, 2011)

Throwback said:


> So all through God's word he condemns homosexuality, to the point of destroying cities for it, and now suddenly we are so smart as to know that they were born that way and "can't help it". I would think if that were it and the Bible was the infallible Word of God that would have made it in there somewhere.
> 
> how arrogant we have become.
> 
> T



No, I'm not saying that at all.
The world has a rather large number of people who have chosen to have relations with anything that moves.  I swear, I believe some of them would have their way with a rattle snake if somebody would hold it's head.

One of the examples I gave was of a man who had extremely feminine traits all his life.  Even as a toddler.  He was never ever attracted to a female as you and I are.
But that man made a choice that he would never ever break God's commandment concerning male/male and female/female.  (I'm working hard to keep it 'G' rated).
And I believe that's what a person must do.

Do a search of hermaphrodites sometimes.  People have been born this century that have absolutely no reproductive organs at all.  Neither.  And some who have a combination of the two.

It gets very complicated.


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## bigreddwon (Sep 16, 2011)

Throwback said:


> so if people don't "choose" to be homosexual due to fear of being ridiculed, but are born that way, what about pedophiles? Certainly they are ridiculed more than homosexuals, so then they must be "born" that way too, or that is the way we could excuse it. And if they can't help it, why should it be a crime or considered unacceptable, using ya'lls logic?
> 
> T





JFS said:


> Because there is a victim.
> 
> .





hummdaddy said:


> because they are harming children..nobody is forcing anybody to be gay ...





JB0704 said:


> X2.  I have read that a pedophile cannot be "cured."  But I don't care.  There is a victim involved.  Straight men can't go around using their natural inclinations to justify rape.
> 
> If two gay guys get gay together, there is no victim.  That is the difference.





Throwback said:


> but they were BORN that way. They "can't HELP it", they are BOTH victims.
> 
> check out how many "gay" people were victims.
> 
> ...





Throwback said:


> So all through God's word he condemns homosexuality, to the point of destroying cities for it, and now suddenly we are so smart as to know that they were born that way and "can't help it". I would think if that were it and the Bible was the infallible Word of God that would have made it in there somewhere.
> 
> how arrogant we have become.
> 
> T



The folks who said its because the child is a victim are on par with my thinking. As far as both of them being victims, they are. We just dont give a rip about the Ped's feelings after the fact. A pedophile cant change his desires, I'm sure some would if they could.  That being said they do not have to act on their desires and when they do, I'm for the death penalty. Its a tough situation, but the choice to _give into_ the desire IS a choice and they all know how our society feels. 

As far as us being _arrogant_ because we can accept homosexuality in spite of the bibles view.. I say no way, waaaaayyyy off target. 

The bible is chock full of things it condemns that _*ALL*_ Christians choose to ignore. How many folks have you killed for working on the sabbath Tacklberry? How many new wives that weren't virgins have you killed? The bible COMMANDS that you do just that. Aren't you a good Christian?  Times change and people and society s  evolve.. The bible is FULL of contradictions and can not in ANY way be called 'infallible', not by anyone with a shred of common sense. 

The bible says allot of things that have absolutely NO place in a modern civilized society.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 17, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> The folks who said its because the child is a victim are on par with my thinking. As far as both of them being victims, they are. We just dont give a rip about the Ped's feelings after the fact. A pedophile cant change his desires, I'm sure some would if they could.  That being said they do not have to act on their desires and when they do, I'm for the death penalty. Its a tough situation, but the choice to _give into_ the desire IS a choice and they all know how our society feels.
> 
> As far as us being _arrogant_ because we can accept homosexuality in spite of the bibles view.. I say no way, waaaaayyyy off target.
> 
> ...



I've been told I have a lot of common sense.... but I believe the Bible in infallible.  But the Bible isn't what I say or what you say.  The Bible is simply what it is and what it says.
It only gets murkie when we begin deciding 'why' the Bible says or commands a particular thing.


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## bigreddwon (Sep 17, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I've been told I have a lot of common sense.... but I believe the Bible in infallible.  But the Bible isn't what I say or what you say.  The Bible is simply what it is and what it says.
> It only gets murkie when we begin deciding 'why' the Bible says or commands a particular thing.



So.. You kill folks on the sabbath for working? You treat your wife like a second class citizen? You advocate owning slaves? Everything you just said completely contradicts common sense. 

The bible is a instructional book of hate, murder and bigotry.. your right, it is what it is...


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## hummdaddy (Sep 17, 2011)




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## centerpin fan (Sep 17, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> So.. You kill folks on the sabbath for working? You treat your wife like a second class citizen? You advocate owning slaves? Everything you just said completely contradicts common sense.
> 
> The bible is a instructional book of hate, murder and bigotry.. your right, it is what it is...



It's posts like this that demand a "shaking my head in disbelief" emoticon.


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## GeorgiaBelle (Sep 18, 2011)

Growing up as I did, I used to think that it was a choice. But now, why would anyone in their right minds "choose" to go through hades? When the vast majority of the population thinks homosexuals are evil or a good item for the butt-end of a joke, no one would intentionally make the choice to pursue that lifestyle. That being said, I do believe it is something that is born in you. Just like some people are born right- or left-handed. It simply is what it is. 

And on a side note, what gives us the right to judge someone based on their lifestyle? Is their way of living harming us in any way? No.


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## atlashunter (Sep 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> It's posts like this that demand a "shaking my head in disbelief" emoticon.



Perfectly sensible questions in light of what Ronnie said. Perhaps it is his post you should be shaking your head in disbelief at. Anybody who thinks the bible is infallible has some serious blinders on.


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## GeorgiaBelle (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I've been told I have a lot of common sense.... but I believe the Bible in infallible.  But the Bible isn't what I say or what you say.  The Bible is simply what it is and what it says.
> It only gets murkie when we begin deciding 'why' the Bible says or commands a particular thing.



We are created in "God's image", correct? He made us to have legs for walking, arms for working, ears for hearing, eyes for seeing, and a brain for thinking. I cannot believe that a god, be it Christian, Muslim, Greek, etc., could be so hypocritical as to make a human being who could think for himself, reason, rationalize, learn, and study, and them punish him for using the brain as it is supposed to be used. That would be like giving a child a toy and then punishing him for playing with it.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> So.. You kill folks on the sabbath for working? You treat your wife like a second class citizen? You advocate owning slaves? Everything you just said completely contradicts common sense.
> 
> The bible is a instructional book of hate, murder and bigotry.. your right, it is what it is...



It must be tortuous to have such distain for a entire group of people.  Maybe its an indication of something that you experienced in the past.  But you shouldn't judge all Christianity by those that say and do weird things.  Just as we Christians shouldn't judge all atheist by those who do and say weird things.

Personally, I treat my wife with the greatest of honor, respect and love.  For 10 weeks now I've been nursing her through knee replacement.  No one else, just me.  She's doing remarkably well now.  I could probably have do more though.

And I don't know who told you that Christians were responsible for slavery in the world, but that person isn't very good at researching.

I've been to church today!  Lots of people were absent.  But there won't be any hangings or beheadings because of it.  I just hope they're safe and I'll look forward to seeing them next time.

As far as the hate, murder, and bigotry, well, I think there's enough of that to go around.  

And the common sense......Albert Einstein said:  Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen. 
Now I have know a few people who were educated beyond thir intelligence.
But I'm off topic now.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

GeorgiaBelle said:


> We are created in "God's image", correct? He made us to have legs for walking, arms for working, ears for hearing, eyes for seeing, and a brain for thinking. I cannot believe that a god, be it Christian, Muslim, Greek, etc., could be so hypocritical as to make a human being who could think for himself, reason, rationalize, learn, and study, and them punish him for using the brain as it is supposed to be used. That would be like giving a child a toy and then punishing him for playing with it.



Okay then.


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## bullethead (Sep 18, 2011)

GeorgiaBelle said:


> We are created in "God's image", correct? He made us to have legs for walking, arms for working, ears for hearing, eyes for seeing, and a brain for thinking. I cannot believe that a god, be it Christian, Muslim, Greek, etc., could be so hypocritical as to make a human being who could think for himself, reason, rationalize, learn, and study, and them punish him for using the brain as it is supposed to be used. That would be like giving a child a toy and then punishing him for playing with it.



Religion is not about using your brain.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Perfectly sensible questions in light of what Ronnie said. Perhaps it is his post you should be shaking your head in disbelief at. Anybody who thinks the bible is infallible has some serious blinders on.



Perfectly sensible!
I'm glad we have this section of the forum where we can discuss our differences.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

God must really be moved to wrinkle His brows as He glances over the AAA section of the forum.


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## bullethead (Sep 18, 2011)

Sometimes I wonder if the strong desire to prove or disprove a higher power or creator is evidence of some sort of creator. The "urge" is there for humans to want to know if there is something bigger"than all of us. Then I think, "what if there is??" Human nature leads me to think it could be faintly possible that SOMETHING could have got the ball rolling. Then I think even within those slim chances I give that being possible, I think MAN,through his usual self centered greed and power and a bit of creativeness, has it all wrong using religion to explain it all. Every dog knows it's master without question yet every human has their own version of who they think is their master. From none to any one of a thousand choices does not leave me confident that there is only ONE. For a being that is supposed to be so complex and intelligent for everything else to overlook the obvious errors and discrepancies in his inspired "guide book" is inexcusable and has the Totally Man Made written all over it.


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## bullethead (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> God must really be moved to wrinkle His brows as He glances over the AAA section of the forum.



He could not possibly be surprised in the least if anything the Bible says is true. He either planned what we all will say or he knows about it eons ahead of time already. He probably is working on something light years in the future because he cannot even enjoy the Games on today.....knowing the outcomes and all.......


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## GeorgiaBelle (Sep 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Religion is not about using your brain.



I agree entirely.    If it was, I can think of a few men who would have thought that crashing planes into buildings 10 years ago was a bad idea. Nevertheless, religion won over "using your brain" yet again.  (For the record, I do not believe every religious person is stupid. There are some otherwise very intelligent people who choose to believe in a god. That is their prerogative. Most people have common sense enough to know that mass genocide is not a good thing and that women are not property to be bought and sold. However, the Bible is only a book; it does not have common sense. But since it is the strong point of a worldwide faith, and some of the ideas in it are questionable, that makes the entire religion questionable.)


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## GeorgiaBelle (Sep 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> He could not possibly be surprised in the least if anything the Bible says is true. He either planned what we all will say or he knows about it eons ahead of time already. He probably is working on something light years in the future because he cannot even enjoy the Games on today.....knowing the outcomes and all.......



Also, if he planned it or knows what we are going to do and say, and knows that I'm going to turn against pure faith, does that mean that he has set me up for failure? And if he planned for me to fail and I get sent to...um..."hades", then why even create me in the first place? Really, I'm curious. I don't get a chance to talk about this stuff and question and hear other people's thoughts because everyone gets all huffy and offended by someone asking a question.


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## bullethead (Sep 18, 2011)

GeorgiaBelle said:


> (For the record, I do not believe every religious person is stupid. There are some otherwise very intelligent people who choose to believe in a god.)



AGREED! In fact some of the most intelligent people I know throw all those sensible thoughts and processes that they use in everyday life out the window when it comes to religion.


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## bullethead (Sep 18, 2011)

GeorgiaBelle said:


> Also, if he planned it or knows what we are going to do and say, and knows that I'm going to turn against pure faith, does that mean that he has set me up for failure? And if he planned for me to fail and I get sent to...um..."hades", then why even create me in the first place? Really, I'm curious. I don't get a chance to talk about this stuff and question and hear other people's thoughts because everyone gets all huffy and offended by someone asking a question.



Yep, I have said the same thing many times. IF there is a master plan, then we are all sticking to the script.


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## GeorgiaBelle (Sep 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> AGREED! In fact some of the most intelligent people I know throw all those sensible thoughts and processes that they use in everyday life out the window when it comes to religion.





bullethead said:


> Yep, I have said the same thing many times. IF there is a master plan, then we are all sticking to the script.



Glad to be able to talk to someone about all this. It was hard for me to come to terms with it, and sometimes it still is. To think that whatever sense I have dissipates still at the thought of going to "that dreadful place" simply because I do not believe. Children go through this sometimes; acting appropriate or doing certain things out of fear. Religion was no different for me. I had a horrid experience that shifted my entire way of thinking. All of a sudden, everything that I knew was wrong, and it has made me question every thought, idea, person, and concept that comes my way. I live by "reasonable doubt", meaning that if one thing, no matter how small, is wrong with a certain thing, than the entire thing is wrong and questionable. 

Of course, this way of thinking has certainly raised a few eyebrows with those that have known me for a while.  But then again, they were also the same people who abhorred the thought of me leaving the church because they thought it was my "wifely duty" to live with an abusive husband (now "ex"). But it has also gotten me out of a lot of what would have been stressful and damaging situations for me. Logic is a lifesaver.


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## bullethead (Sep 18, 2011)

Being able to speak your mind is what separates the GON forums from all the others! It is a relief to be able to discuss and learn while not always agreeing with the majority.

Welcome to the forums.


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## GeorgiaBelle (Sep 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Being able to speak your mind is what separates the GON forums from all the others! It is a relief to be able to discuss and learn while not always agreeing with the majority.
> 
> Welcome to the forums.



This is my first time to this one.  I joined back in 2009, but have been so inactive because of everything. The more people in your life, the more drama you have.  But I'm glad to be back and hope I can learn a lot more while still sharing my thoughts and opinions. Thanks for the welcome.


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## hummdaddy (Sep 18, 2011)

GeorgiaBelle said:


> This is my first time to this one.  I joined back in 2009, but have been so inactive because of everything. The more people in your life, the more drama you have.  But I'm glad to be back and hope I can learn a lot more while still sharing my thoughts and opinions. Thanks for the welcome.



welcome


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## bigreddwon (Sep 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> It must be tortuous to have such distain for a entire group of people.  Maybe its an indication of something that you experienced in the past.  But you shouldn't judge all Christianity by those that say and do weird things.  Just as we Christians shouldn't judge all atheist by those who do and say weird things.
> 
> Personally, I treat my wife with the greatest of honor, respect and love.  For 10 weeks now I've been nursing her through knee replacement.  No one else, just me.  She's doing remarkably well now.  I could probably have do more though.
> 
> ...



Distain is the wrong word. Astonishment is better, that intelligent people cant take a book and SEE the contradictions, SEE the VILE messages mixed in with the good messages, ALL from the same source. And have the nerve to say its the way to live, not only for themselves, but to have the Audacity and ignorance to force it on the rest of the world..

If I cooked you a perfect 3 course meal, the food is impeccable, the service impeccable, but I took a crap in the middle of the table and killed a small child in the kitchen to satisfy a 'gods' ego-maniacal lust... would you call the dinner _*good*_? 

IF I were like most Christians I would IGNORE the pile o poo and the child sacrifice and say it was an enchanting evening with excellent food... Then I would force my family and friends to eat there.

"I will emulate his style of cooking and preach it is the ONLY way to cook a meal".. Makes me want to vomit. 

A NORMAL person would say it was a train wreck, a horrible night of excrement and death... get the point?

The bible HAS EVIL stuff in it. EVIL stuff it COMMANDS you abide by. IF you disagree then you HAVE NO CLUE about the bible. It advocates slavery. It does. It advocates murder while saying at the same time "tho shalt not kill'. It dictates that a woman IS NOT equal to a man. It does. It COMMANDS you to kill for many STUPID reasons, don't think so? _*Your wrong if you do*_. Taken in its entirety it IS NOT a guideline as to how to live OR how to treat your fellow man. _*It COULD be if you IGNORE huge amounts of it and CHERRY PICK the few GOOD things it says*_.. 

I don't hate Christians, I wish they would wake up and smell the coffee for sure. Especially when they REFUSE to keep this tripe OUT of our politics and schools. Its ok to worship IMO, makes NO sense to me but I'm for personal freedom. 

I KNOW there is NO god, just as certain as I KNOW there is NO SANTA, or MAGIC, or a tooth fairy.. I do not feel compelled to PROVE their is no Santa, there just isnt. He was made up by man, same as god. God just had a longer run.  I have no doubts. I find most Christians are LIARS, to themselves mostly. Why do I say that? I'll explain. 

Quick summation : Its not unlike taking out insurance when the dealer has an ace showing.. Your just hedging your bet IN CASE he has a winning hand. You don't necessarily BELIEVE ha HAS a face card under there, but... Just in case your gonna insure it. THAT'S how I view 99.99% of "Christians" . Absolutely NOT true believers, just hedging their bets and still living like the sinners we all are. They just get to add 'HUGE HYPOCRITE' on top of the same sins we all do..


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## Greaserbilly (Sep 18, 2011)

Throwback said:


> If it's not a sin (choice)  God will have to apologize to Sodom and Gomorrah.
> 
> T



The sin of Sodom was inhospitality to strangers and such not gayness

Please read the Bible.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 18, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> The sin of Sodom was inhospitality to strangers and such not gayness



Yep.  Forced, gang sodomy is pretty inhospitable.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Yep.  Forced, gang sodomy is pretty inhospitable.



lol    touche!


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 18, 2011)

......God will have to apoligize to Sodom and Gomorroah. Something stated somewhere in this thread. I have heard this alot lately. Just recently a church I attended, the preacher must of liked this when he heard it because he used it in the sermon twice. Did not even fit where he placed it. I knew he must have heard it that week and could not wait to use it. Who first coined this that everyone is now copying? Must be a big gun like James Dobson, CS lewis or some other rich preacher


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 18, 2011)

Is the story of Sodom and Gomorroh really about perverted sex? or is it a picture of a false teaching being forced, an attempt to defile the pure. See 2 Cor 11: 1-4 "I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him."


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## centerpin fan (Sep 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Is the story of Sodom and Gomorroh really about perverted sex? or is it a picture of a false teaching being forced ...



Oh, it's definitely about something being forced.  For a brief example, check out the prison shower scene in _American History X_.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 18, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Distain is the wrong word. Astonishment is better, that intelligent people cant take a book and SEE the contradictions, SEE the VILE messages mixed in with the good messages, ALL from the same source. And have the nerve to say its the way to live, not only for themselves, but to have the Audacity and ignorance to force it on the rest of the world..
> 
> If I cooked you a perfect 3 course meal, the food is impeccable, the service impeccable, but I took a crap in the middle of the table and killed a small child in the kitchen to satisfy a 'gods' ego-maniacal lust... would you call the dinner _*good*_?
> 
> ...



Frankly, your first 3 or 4 paragraphs are filled with garbage that has nothing at all to do with Christians or Christianity.
You speak of things that even I don't fully understand, why would I contemplate you understanding it.

We Christians don't poo in our food either.

It's going to be difficult for me to discuss this with you if all your comments are like this one.
I thought you and I might get into an adult conversation here, but it's not going to happen.  I'm not going to get into "trash" talk with you.


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## JB0704 (Sep 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Oh, it's definitely about something being forced.  For a brief example, check out the prison shower scene in _American History X_.



That was an awful scene, and an awful movie. 

About S&G, I have not studied this a lot, but, wasn't the gayness a symptom, not the problem?


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## Icemaster (Sep 18, 2011)

plant cotton


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## bigreddwon (Sep 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Frankly, your first 3 or 4 paragraphs are filled with garbage that has nothing at all to do with Christians or Christianity.
> You speak of things that even I don't fully understand, why would I contemplate you understanding it.
> 
> We Christians don't poo in our food either.
> ...



I knew before I posted it "true' Christians would _HAVE_ to pretend not to understand it. _Understanding_ it would shake your faith far too much. _Simply understanding_ my point would mean you were using _logic_ and that's a direct enemy of the bible. Don't feel bad, your still blissfully ignorant of the point.. enjoy. The moment you_ get it_, you'll _never _see religion or the bible the same way you do at present. It happened to me, I know what I say is true.

The first three paragraphs were painfully simple..  very simple _analogy_. What part confused you? I'll try to explain it another way, but I feel its a waste, because a 10 year old would get it. Because a 10 year old hasn't got 20-50 years of indoctrination, and they have far more open minds than adults who've given their lives to a fantasy.. Also, they lack the IMMINENCE pride a grown man or woman has, the thought of a wasted lifetime has no meaning to a 10 year old, not the same with you...Sounds like I'm being horrible, but I'm just being honest, Sorry if it comes off harsh. 

 Take something 60/40 evil/good and blindly ignore the evil and pretend the good encompasses 100%, your beyond reasoning. That's not saying your stupid, its saying your a typical Christian. Brainwashed and conditioned to ignore your common sense. _TO BELIEVE_ you _have_ to ignore large parts of the bible and _pretend_ they mean _other_ than what they_ say._. While at the same time taking what you like _as it is_ written. Pick n choose, ignore _this_ while embracing _that_. Not only is the bible NOT infallible, its downright FLAWED, in more ways than we have time or desire to discuss..

If the bible were instructions to put a books shelf together it couldn't be done. The contradictions alone would make it impossible.. Christians don't care about the contradictions, both directly and morally.. That's the problem I have with Christianity..

I am not trying to be offensive. There's just no other way to say what needs to be said other than coming out and saying it. The truth is ugly sometimes...


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## atlashunter (Sep 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> God must really be moved to wrinkle His brows as He glances over the AAA section of the forum.



The FSM on the other hand must be quite pleased.

Also see the quote in my signature. Critical thinking is a good thing.


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## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Critical thinking is a good thing.



....and will lead different people to different conclusions.


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## stringmusic (Sep 19, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> Distain is the wrong word. Astonishment is better, that intelligent people cant take a book and SEE the contradictions, SEE the VILE messages mixed in with the good messages, ALL from the same source. And have the nerve to say its the way to live, not only for themselves, but to have the Audacity and ignorance to force it on the rest of the world..
> 
> If I cooked you a perfect 3 course meal, the food is impeccable, the service impeccable, but I took a crap in the middle of the table and killed a small child in the kitchen to satisfy a 'gods' ego-maniacal lust... would you call the dinner _*good*_?
> 
> ...



Can you give us some examples?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 19, 2011)

bigreddwon said:


> I knew before I posted it "true' Christians would _HAVE_ to pretend not to understand it. _Understanding_ it would shake your faith far too much. _Simply understanding_ my point would mean you were using _logic_ and that's a direct enemy of the bible. Don't feel bad, your still blissfully ignorant of the point.. enjoy. The moment you_ get it_, you'll _never _see religion or the bible the same way you do at present. It happened to me, I know what I say is true.
> 
> The first three paragraphs were painfully simple..  very simple _analogy_. What part confused you? I'll try to explain it another way, but I feel its a waste, because a 10 year old would get it. Because a 10 year old hasn't got 20-50 years of indoctrination, and they have far more open minds than adults who've given their lives to a fantasy.. Also, they lack the IMMINENCE pride a grown man or woman has, the thought of a wasted lifetime has no meaning to a 10 year old, not the same with you...Sounds like I'm being horrible, but I'm just being honest, Sorry if it comes off harsh.
> 
> ...



And the lack of God in your life speaks loudly.
And your ignorance of it is deafening.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Can you give us some examples?



Now he'll go do a google search and see it he can find what some other atheist, who's a Bible scholar, says about the Bible.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 19, 2011)

Where did the Bible say that Christians offered children as sacrifices?

And what does the Bible say a Christian should do when confronted by a person who treats God with total disrespect and distain????


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## stringmusic (Sep 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Now he'll go do a google search and see it he can find what some other atheist, who's a Bible scholar, says about the Bible.



You a probably right.

Hopefully he can calm down enough to have a good talk.


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## atlashunter (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....and will lead different people to different conclusions.



Absolutely. Not that having a different conclusion necessarily means it was good critical thinking that got you there. It's been my experience that a willingness to think and question is generally lacking in Christian circles. No coincidence that this is a common trait among cults.


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## stringmusic (Sep 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Absolutely. Not that having a different conclusion necessarily means it was good critical thinking that got you there. It's been my experience that a willingness to think and question is generally lacking in Christian circles. No coincidence that this is a common trait among cults.


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## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Absolutely. Not that having a different conclusion necessarily means it was good critical thinking that got you there. It's been my experience that a willingness to think and question is generally lacking in Christian circles. No coincidence that this is a common trait among cults.



Ok, but who qualifies whether the critical thinking was good or not?

If you poke around the forum, and I know you do, you will see a good bit of questioning and thinking, even amongst some of the Christians.

I personally don't see how agnosticism is any more intellectually honest than deism.  My critical thinking leads me to believe those are the most "intellectually honest" positions, though I hold neither.  I think Christianity and atheism (narrowly defined) require an absolute belief, and are similar in that way.  That is my experience.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, but who qualifies whether the critical thinking was good or not?
> 
> If you poke around the forum, and I know you do, you will see a good bit of questioning and thinking, even amongst some of the Christians.
> 
> I personally don't see how agnosticism is any more intellectually honest than deism.  My critical thinking leads me to believe those are the most "intellectually honest" positions, though I hold neither.  I think Christianity and atheism (narrowly defined) require an absolute belief, and are similar in that way.  That is my experience.



I agree.   Seems like both sides have 'critical thinkers' represented here.    I've seen few zombies.    lol

Our discussions here have shown that atheists, too, have to believe in incredible miracles....the astronomically improbable odds of life 'ex nihilo'.


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## bullethead (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I agree.   Seems like both sides have 'critical thinkers' represented here.    I've seen few zombies.    lol
> 
> Our discussions here have shown that atheists, too, have to believe in incredible miracles....the astronomically improbable odds of life 'ex nihilo'.



Bandy, life exists, we all know that. There are things that defy incredible odds all the time. We accept them as fact not as the results of a higher power granting a wish.You and others have provided some numbers that say what the odds are that life started as some of us think happened.... 
What are the numbers on a being that has always been creating everything?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

Bullet....your 'tu quoque' logical fallacy doesn't support your position.   I was just stating that you (atheists) also believe in miracles.   I'm sure you'd agree...

We all believe in the miraculous.....and infinity.


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## bullethead (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Bullet....your 'tu quoque' logical fallacy doesn't support your position.   I was just stating that you (atheists) also believe in miracles.   I'm sure you'd agree...
> 
> We all believe in the miraculous.....and infinity.



All I am asking is for something that supports your position. You are quick to point out errors in everyone's thoughts and theories yet do not provide anything to support your own.

I am asking you what are the odds...the numbers...that there exists an "Infinite Entity"?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

Bullet, I've already admitted I believe in miracles.   Yep, I believe we are miracles.   

All I said was that atheists believe in miracles, too.   Can't you just admit that?


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## bullethead (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Bullet, I've already admitted I believe in miracles.   Yep, I believe we are miracles.
> 
> All I said was that atheists believe in miracles, too.   Can't you just admit that?



I don't think they are miracles as much as they are events yet unexplained.


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## JB0704 (Sep 19, 2011)

I'm not trying to answer for anybody, but it seems the two positions (from nothing v from something) are equally unproveable.  The problem comes in when one side tells the other they are not thinking, and that happens in both directions.  

For me, the OC issue is why I believe in God.  It makes more sense to me.  I don't force that on anyone else, but am happy to discuss it.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

with what science knows today about it, it's miraculous.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> For me, the OC issue is why I believe in God.  It makes more sense to me.  I don't force that on anyone else, but am happy to discuss it.



Yep...."go where the evidence leads"    Antony Flew


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## bullethead (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> with what science knows today about it, it's miraculous.



 That one in 10 to the 10,000th chance that may have been a success is dwarfed by the number of failures that occurred over the same period of time. Failure leaves no traces yet "we" may be an example of the one successful try. I guess miraculous is fitting.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> That one in 10 to the 10,000th chance that may have been a success is dwarfed by the number of failures that occurred over the same period of time. Failure leaves no traces yet "we" may be an example of the one successful try. I guess miraculous is fitting.



Now you're making a classic atheist mistake .... "personification".    Those chemicals wouldn't have 'failed'.  There was no purpose, no desire to be successful, no "trying".    I know it's hard not to add those words in a debate, but you have to leave them out.    The 'failures' didn't care if they were failures.   it would have just been chemicals.


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## bullethead (Sep 19, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Now you're making a classic atheist mistake .... "personification".    Those chemicals wouldn't have 'failed'.  There was no purpose, no desire to be successful, no "trying".    I know it's hard not to add those words in a debate, but you have to leave them out.    The 'failures' didn't care if they were failures.   it would have just been chemicals.



It was the best way to explain it using a term that is easily understandable. If you look at it that the goal was to produce life, then all the other random concoctions were failures. Kind of like a slot machine, all the pulls of the handle that do not have the symbols line up as a winner are considered failures( for the goal we are looking to be achieved) the symbols themselves don't know they are failures....it is our perception that they are because they did not meet our goal.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 19, 2011)

gotcha.   thought you were implying that there was some sort of 'purpose' with these presumed chemical slushies.


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## atlashunter (Sep 19, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, but who qualifies whether the critical thinking was good or not?
> 
> If you poke around the forum, and I know you do, you will see a good bit of questioning and thinking, even amongst some of the Christians.
> 
> I personally don't see how agnosticism is any more intellectually honest than deism.  My critical thinking leads me to believe those are the most "intellectually honest" positions, though I hold neither.  I think Christianity and atheism (narrowly defined) require an absolute belief, and are similar in that way.  That is my experience.



It's one heck of a leap from deism to theism. If we go by the strict definition of atheist as one who lacks a belief in a god there is nothing intellectually dishonest about that position. By that definition an atheist is simply someone who is unconvinced of the god proposition. Anyone who is going to assert not that there may be a god but that there is one has a burden of proof to support the claim with good solid evidence. That's never been done which happens to be exactly what we should expect if there were no gods. That doesn't prove there aren't any, but it is at least consistent with it.

The fact that we are discussing this on a sub-forum demonstrates my point. Not all Christians but a very significant majority don't like having their views questioned or challenged. They would prefer that anyone doing so just go away or at least be segregated off somewhere that they don't have to hear or see the questioning. I wonder why that is? It's not really what one would expect from people who genuinely care and believe in the truth of their claims.


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## vowell462 (Nov 7, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Now he'll go do a google search and see it he can find what some other atheist, who's a Bible scholar, says about the Bible.



All one would have to do is read the OT. He may not be coming across the way he should, but his points about murder, women being unequal etc. is right on. 
Then in the NT it says that the OT still applies. Therefore, I see his point and its things like this that give me the whole " What?" attitude.

Im all about freedom. If you want to believe it, thats fine. However, defend your beliefs. Everything he stated was spot on in accordance with the bible.


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## Drowntaff (Dec 8, 2011)

GAGE said:


> You can choose to experiment, but you can not choose who you love.



Agree completely with this statement.


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## stringmusic (Dec 8, 2011)

GAGE said:


> You can choose to experiment, but you can not choose who you love.





Drowntaff said:


> Agree completely with this statement.



You are forced to love people?


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## GAGE (Dec 8, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> You are forced to love people?


Did I say that?      Are you married,  if so, do you love your significant  other?      Again,  where you forced to love ,   did you choose to love,  or did you just come to realization that you where in love?


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## stringmusic (Dec 8, 2011)

GAGE said:


> Did I say that?      Are you married,  if so, do you love your significant  other?      Again,  where you forced to love ,   did you choose to love,  or did you just come to realization that you where in love?



"You cannot choose who you love" seems to indicate that the choice is not ours, and if we say we are in love, then that loved is forced. Either way, I just asked a question, I didn't say you said anything.

Yes, I do love my wife, and I _choose_ to keep loving her everyday.


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## GAGE (Dec 8, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Yes, I do love my wife, and I _choose_ to keep loving her everyday.



Awesome,   but hypothetically,  could you realistically choose to stop loving her tomorrow,  can you easily turn that love on and off?


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## stringmusic (Dec 9, 2011)

GAGE said:


> Awesome,   but hypothetically,  could you realistically choose to stop loving her tomorrow,  can you easily turn that love on and off?



No, I could not stop loving her tomorrow, but I could choose to quit loving her and over time, I would not anymore.


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 9, 2011)

I was born with a very strong desire to lie cheat and steal, Without question I was born this way, Yet I have chosen a different path.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 9, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> I was born with a very strong desire to lie cheat and steal, Without question I was born this way, Yet I have chosen a different path.


Flawed analogy. Humans are wired to need companionship and to love and be loved and to have a partner. If you had a choice between being alone for the rest of your life with no partner be it male or female, or lieing, cheating and stealing, Im betting you'll be getting a five finger discount on a pack of gum sometime soon. Maybe Im wrong, give it a try.


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## Four (Dec 12, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> I was born with a very strong desire to lie cheat and steal, Without question I was born this way, Yet I have chosen a different path.



Yikes, really? How do you know that you were born this way?  From what i had understood being born a psychopath was very very rare. When were you diagnosed? What kind of therapy did you go through to help you interact peacefully in social situations?


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 14, 2011)

WaltL1 said:


> Flawed analogy. Humans are wired to need companionship and to love and be loved and to have a partner. If you had a choice between being alone for the rest of your life with no partner be it male or female, or lieing, cheating and stealing, Im betting you'll be getting a five finger discount on a pack of gum sometime soon. Maybe Im wrong, give it a try.



 The anology stands, your comments support it!


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 14, 2011)

Four said:


> Yikes, really? How do you know that you were born this way?  From what i had understood being born a psychopath was very very rare. When were you diagnosed? What kind of therapy did you go through to help you interact peacefully in social situations?



  Yes really! I know this because I know my own heart, I know human nature. For you to imply that the basic desire for humans to lie, cheat and steal is psychopathic is absurd.

     Every child born knows how to lie, cheat and steal and will do so until corrective persuasions condition him to choose another path.

    Really.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 14, 2011)

I observe that children are born to be brutally honest, brutally casual about all things........ then they quickly learn what gets them the most.


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## atlashunter (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> Yes really! I know this because I know my own heart, I know human nature. For you to imply that the basic desire for humans to lie, cheat and steal is psychopathic is absurd.
> 
> Every child born knows how to lie, cheat and steal and will do so until corrective persuasions condition him to choose another path.
> 
> Really.



You're looking at symptoms, not the root cause. Why do people lie, cheat, and steal?


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## WaltL1 (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> The anology stands, your comments support it!


Uh you might want to read it again but slower this time. Bottom line is your saying gay folks even though they are born gay should choose not to be gay. Why?  By the way lieing, cheating and stealing has a victim. You lie to someone, you cheat someone and you steal from someone. The gay guy or girl in your neighborhood has no negative effects on your life whatsoever other than you just dont like it. Which is your problem not theirs. And Ronnie T has got it right, although I would add they are also taught who to hate.


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 14, 2011)

WaltL1 said:


> Uh you might want to read it again but slower this time. Bottom line is your saying gay folks even though they are born gay should choose not to be gay. Why?  By the way lieing, cheating and stealing has a victim. You lie to someone, you cheat someone and you steal from someone. The gay guy or girl in your neighborhood has no negative effects on your life whatsoever other than you just dont like it. Which is your problem not theirs. And Ronnie T has got it right, although I would add they are also taught who to hate.



Walt you make a lot of unfounded assumptions and your condescending tone is unnecessarily hostile.  Your previous post stated;

 "Flawed analogy. Humans are wired to need companionship and to love and be loved and to have a partner. If you had a choice between being alone for the rest of your life with no partner be it male or female, or lieing, cheating and stealing, Im betting you'll be getting a five finger discount on a pack of gum sometime soon. Maybe Im wrong, give it a try." 

 This reaffirms my contention that a choice is made to act on a desire.

 Has it occurred to you that it just might be possible for one to think a certain behavior is wrong and deviant yet not hate the person engaged is the behavior?


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You're looking at symptoms, not the root cause. Why do people lie, cheat, and steal?



    On the surface the reasons are many and are part of normal behavioral developments, however the basic "root cause" is our sinful nature.


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## atlashunter (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> On the surface the reasons are many and are part of normal behavioral developments, however the basic "root cause" is our sinful nature.



Leaving aside the issues that would raise concerning the assertion that a perfect creator would create a flawed creation and then command it to be perfect, I don't believe it to be true. If you feel the urge to lie, cheat, and steal for it's own sake then you need to go see a shrink.

Adam Smith said "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."

We are born self interested. It's part of our nature because those who aren't self interested have a tendency to not survive. It's normal and there is nothing wrong with it. In fact it is a vital component of our survival. We wouldn't have got this far without that part of our nature. Adam Smith is right when he points out the work we do for others is ultimately done out of our own self interest. But that same self interest is also displayed when we lie, cheat, and steal. We do those things not because we are evil at our core but because we reason that it is to our benefit.

So the problem isn't with our nature but the ways in which we manifest that nature.


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## stringmusic (Dec 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Adam Smith said "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
> 
> We are born self interested. It's part of our nature because those who aren't self interested have a tendency to not survive. It's normal and there is nothing wrong with it. In fact it is a vital component of our survival.


Do you think that Mother Teresa somehow had some type of birth defect? Or everything she did was somehow in her own self interest of survival?



> We wouldn't have got this far without that part of our nature.


How do you think our brains came to be that we would need this "part of our nature"?


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 14, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Leaving aside the issues that would raise concerning the assertion that a perfect creator would create a flawed creation and then command it to be perfect, I don't believe it to be true. If you feel the urge to lie, cheat, and steal for it's own sake then you need to go see a shrink.
> 
> Adam Smith said "It is not from the benevolence of the butcher, the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest."
> 
> ...



  Self interest and self preservation are indeed part of our nature, that is my point, we need not learn these. Nor do we need to learn to hate, be vindictive, cruel, selfish, greedy, abusive and dishonest.

We must however learn to be gracious, benevolent, honest, kind, trustworthy, patient, honorable and forgiving.

Adams is right in so much as we *work* for others to meet our own self interest as it pertains to ones occupation and other quid pro quo interactions. However he is off the mark when it comes to benevolence born from love or faith.

  With that said and in an effort to get back on subject, I am glad to see you agree with me in that ones nature matters not but rather it is the manifestation of our choices that matters.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> I was born with a very strong desire to lie cheat and steal, Without question I was born this way, Yet I have chosen a different path.


Bone Head, considering the original subject, I took this to mean you feel a gay person can and should choose not to be gay in the same way a liar, cheater and thief can and should choose not to do those things. If I got that wrong then I apologize and would be interested to know what this quote actually means.
And please be aware that I am purposely leaving religous beliefs out of this and would request you do the same if possible.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> Has it occurred to you that it just might be possible for one to think a certain behavior is wrong and deviant yet not hate the person engaged is the behavior?


Actually that requires such a high level of thought that it never even crossed my mind


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 14, 2011)

WaltL1 said:


> Bone Head, considering the original subject, I took this to mean you feel a gay person can and should choose not to be gay in the same way a liar, cheater and thief can and should choose not to do those things. If I got that wrong then I apologize and would be interested to know what this quote actually means.
> And please be aware that I am purposely leaving religous beliefs out of this and would request you do the same if possible.



Walt, I do think a person can choose not to act on whatever their desires maybe, just as I choose to remain faithful to my wife, however I do not think a gay person can choose their desires anymore than I can choose mine.
Whether or not they should is based on ones personal beliefs, mine are rooted in my religion and I will honor your request.
Admittedly I have no idea what it must be like for a gay person to feel what they feel and have people tell them to change.  I know how I feel about women and aint nuthin changing that.


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## atlashunter (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> Self interest and self preservation are indeed part of our nature, that is my point, we need not learn these. Nor do we need to learn to hate, be vindictive, cruel, selfish, greedy, abusive and dishonest.
> 
> We must however learn to be gracious, benevolent, honest, kind, trustworthy, patient, honorable and forgiving.



It isn't any more in our nature to hate and be cruel than it is to be kind and loving. Both are just manifestations of underlying needs. You raise a kid in an environment where they benefit by lying, cheating, and stealing you'll end up with an adult that seems evil by nature. Raise a kid in an environment that rewards good deeds and punishes bad they will turn out very different. It's not that they are born good or bad, they learn to behave in whatever way maximizes their own interest and minimizes pain and unhappiness. We aren't born either good or evil in our natures IMO.




BONE HEAD said:


> Adams is right in so much as we *work* for others to meet our own self interest as it pertains to ones occupation and other quid pro quo interactions. However he is off the mark when it comes to benevolence born from love or faith.



If you look closely even acts born out of love and faith, in fact love and faith themselves are self serving. As social creatures do we not gain emotionally and psychologically from being loved and accepted and do we not learn (hopefully) that love must be given to be returned?




BONE HEAD said:


> With that said and in an effort to get back on subject, I am glad to see you agree with me in that ones nature matters not but rather it is the manifestation of our choices that matters.



I would agree with that. I would also say that our sexuality comes naturally whether it be heterosexual or homosexual and either can be manifested in both healthy and unhealthy ways.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 14, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> Walt, I do think a person can choose not to act on whatever their desires maybe, just as I choose to remain faithful to my wife, however I do not think a gay person can choose their desires anymore than I can choose mine.
> Whether or not they should is based on ones personal beliefs, mine are rooted in my religion and I will honor your request.
> Admittedly I have no idea what it must be like for a gay person to feel what they feel and have people tell them to change.  I know how I feel about women and aint nuthin changing that.


We agree on ALMOST everything - A person can choose not to act on their desires. A gay person did not choose their desires (being gay) and as you pointed out I agree "there aint nuthin changing that".
Where I believe we disagree (and im making an assumption based on your personal beliefs being rooted in religion) is whether a gay person should or should not act on their desires. Being gay is not a crime. Gay people being together is not a crime nor is it victimizing anybody. Every person has the right to pursue happiness (within the law). I can't think of a single legitimate reason why a gay person should have to deny who they are or not act on their desires with another person of like mind . Nor can I ignore those thoughts and just toss them to the side because a religion says I have to if i want to be a member. I, personally, am left questioning the religion not the gay person.
And for what it is worth, I am in no way anti-religion and completely support your right to worship as you believe. I just cant buy into it due to several issues such as this one. Prejudice, and thats what it boils down to, to me is a man made concept and would be beneath "God".


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## JB0704 (Dec 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> You raise a kid in an environment where they benefit by lying, cheating, and stealing you'll end up with an adult that seems evil by nature. Raise a kid in an environment that rewards good deeds and punishes bad they will turn out very different.


 


atlashunter said:


> I would also say that our sexuality comes naturally whether it be heterosexual or homosexual and either can be manifested in both healthy and unhealthy ways.



Do you see the difference in the two statements?  Why does our behavior come from environment in one way, but not the other?  I believe sexual preference can be a consequence of natural predisposition or environmental factors.  It just depends.  Either way, what people do with their lives is their business.


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## BONE HEAD (Dec 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> It isn't any more in our nature to hate and be cruel than it is to be kind and loving. Both are just manifestations of underlying needs. You raise a kid in an environment where they benefit by lying, cheating, and stealing you'll end up with an adult that seems evil by nature. Raise a kid in an environment that rewards good deeds and punishes bad they will turn out very different. It's not that they are born good or bad, they learn to behave in whatever way maximizes their own interest and minimizes pain and unhappiness. We aren't born either good or evil in our natures IMO.



 Well not quite, there are countless examples of kids raised in the same manner, household and by the same parents that as adults have vastly different moral, political, sexual, social, religious and philosophical views & behaviors.  My grand mother is one of 24 children, I am one of 6, and I have 4 of my own, in each generation there seems to be some sort of predetermination that negates environmental influences.   Cain and Able?






			
				atlashunter6553257 said:
			
		

> If you look closely even acts born out of love and faith, in fact love and faith themselves are self serving. As social creatures do we not gain emotionally and psychologically from being loved and accepted and do we not learn (hopefully) that love must be given to be returned?



   Yes...and No, respectively.   Life is full of examples of people loving and doing for others with no expectation of any reciprocity what so ever and conversely people who are deeply loved and cared for who are wholly indifferent to the love they receive.....I can love someone who hates me....this is the essence of Christ's love


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## atlashunter (Dec 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Do you see the difference in the two statements?  Why does our behavior come from environment in one way, but not the other?  I believe sexual preference can be a consequence of natural predisposition or environmental factors.  It just depends.  Either way, what people do with their lives is their business.



There is no doubt in my mind that I have always had a predisposition toward being attracted to girls. Now I don't know the mind of every gay person but everyone I've ever spoken to and asked about their childhood has told me they always had a predisposition toward the same sex. I see no reason to believe they are lying about that.


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## atlashunter (Dec 15, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> Well not quite, there are countless examples of kids raised in the same manner, household and by the same parents that as adults have vastly different moral, political, sexual, social, religious and philosophical views & behaviors.  My grand mother is one of 24 children, I am one of 6, and I have 4 of my own, in each generation there seems to be some sort of predetermination that negates environmental influences.   Cain and Able?



Of course it's a generalization and there are always exceptions what with "free will" and all.  But the generalizations hold true. Take those members of our society who are the most cruel and heartless and compare their childhoods on average with the reverse. You'll definitely see a difference.


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## JB0704 (Dec 15, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Now I don't know the mind of every gay person but everyone I've ever spoken to and asked about their childhood has told me they always had a predisposition toward the same sex. I see no reason to believe they are lying about that.



I don't think they are.  But what is the reason for that predisposition?

One of my closest friends is gay (closeted to most, but some of us know).  He is convinced his preferences are a result of a "daddy void" compounded with a domineering mother.  Does that change his disposition, no.  Does it make it better or worse, no.  Do I think less of him than anybody else, no.  

My only point is that we can't sit here and claim that environment dictates our behavior (it does to some extent) in all areas but sexual preference. Is it a natural disposition in many cases, I believe so.  I also believe events, environment, etc can play a role.  Does that change anything.....absolutely not.


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## atlashunter (Dec 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think they are.  But what is the reason for that predisposition?
> 
> One of my closest friends is gay (closeted to most, but some of us know).  He is convinced his preferences are a result of a "daddy void" compounded with a domineering mother.  Does that change his disposition, no.  Does it make it better or worse, no.  Do I think less of him than anybody else, no.
> 
> My only point is that we can't sit here and claim that environment dictates our behavior (it does to some extent) in all areas but sexual preference. Is it a natural disposition in many cases, I believe so.  I also believe events, environment, etc can play a role.  Does that change anything.....absolutely not.



Well I don't want to get too graphic but I can remember having a certain physical reaction at a very young age to girls that I didn't have to boys even before I had any idea what it meant or why. It wasn't something that I understood and chose like telling a lie or sharing a toy so how could that be considered environmental?


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## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well I don't want to get too graphic but I can remember having a certain physical reaction at a very young age to girls that I didn't have to boys even before I had any idea what it meant or why. It wasn't something that I understood and chose like telling a lie or sharing a toy so how could that be considered environmental?



I never said it was environmental.  I guess we would be pretty limited in our ability to understand the world around us if we based everything on our own experiences.  But your experience is not my point.  I don't think anybody "chooses" anything, and have not argued for that.

If you will check what I am saying a bit, you will understand that I think genetics play a role, and environment may also.  It's a one or the other or both, and choice has nothing to do with it.


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## Four (Dec 20, 2011)

BONE HEAD said:


> Yes really! I know this because I know my own heart, I know human nature. For you to imply that the basic desire for humans to lie, cheat and steal is psychopathic is absurd.
> 
> Every child born knows how to lie, cheat and steal and will do so until corrective persuasions condition him to choose another path.
> 
> Really.



From what I've seen / read, we're born with a natural empathy. Certainly the development of humans go through phases, depending on the age, certain children cant even recognize cause / effect.

But as a species homo-sapiens are a species that lives in communities, like most of the other great apes. Our species has evolved empathy that has helped us survive by forming these communities and helping your pack / family / village etc. I don't think it's absurd to say that a lack of empathy and desire to cheat / steal / lie is Psychopathic . . because that's the exact definition of Psychopathy. . . 

The word Psychopathy exists because this lack of empathy is a mental defect, not "human nature"

Contrary to what the Torah might say, and judao-christian doctrine suggests, we are not born evil.


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## TheBishop (Dec 20, 2011)

Four said:


> Contrary to what the Torah might say, and judao-christian doctrine suggests, we are not born evil.



Rock on!


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## Throwback (Dec 20, 2011)

Four said:


> From what I've seen / read, we're born with a natural empathy. Certainly the development of humans go through phases, depending on the age, certain children cant even recognize cause / effect.
> 
> But as a species homo-sapiens are a species that lives in communities, like most of the other great apes. Our species has evolved empathy that has helped us survive by forming these communities and helping your pack / family / village etc. I don't think it's absurd to say that a lack of empathy and desire to cheat / steal / lie is Psychopathic . . because that's the exact definition of Psychopathy. . .
> 
> ...



the word psycopathy exists because someone made it up. 


T


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## KANSASARCHER (Feb 20, 2012)

It really deosn't matter what we think, homosexuals should be more worried about what god thinks. The bible plainly clarifies that.


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## ambush80 (Feb 20, 2012)

KANSASARCHER said:


> It really deosn't matter what we think, homosexuals should be more worried about what god thinks. The bible plainly clarifies that.



Did you read the title of this sub forum?  Do you know what apologetics is?  Do you care?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Did you read the title of this sub forum?  Do you know what apologetics is?  Do you care?



Pop quiz?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

Four said:


> The word Psychopathy exists because this lack of empathy is a mental defect, not "human nature"
> 
> Contrary to what the Torah might say, and judao-christian doctrine suggests, we are not born evil.



So when you ask your/a two year old did they break something, and they lie and say no.....you taught them to be deceptive in life? or is that human nature?

I guess it depends if you in fact believe deception is evil or good.

I learned not to lie because there would be a consequence/punishment for it, young or old. I'm pretty sure lying comes naturally for most of us and we had to be taught otherwise.


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