# How much faith is too much?



## bullethead (Apr 24, 2013)

http://news.yahoo.com/2nd-child-pa-couple-dies-only-praying-111713837.html


----------



## Four (Apr 24, 2013)

Definately to much when you stop looking both ways before crossing roads.

Or when you start closing your eyes when you drive

JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL!


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

I figured this story would pop up here.


----------



## Four (Apr 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I figured this story would pop up here.



thought it might be boston bombing, too


----------



## bullethead (Apr 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I figured this story would pop up here.



Should I have posted it in the Turkey forum?

I guarantee that if those kids would have lived, Mr. God would have gotten all the credit and someone would have posted the article that told the opposite story of 'How prayer saved our children's lives".


----------



## dawg2 (Apr 24, 2013)

Everything in  moderation.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Should I have posted it in the Turkey forum?


No.

Did I somehow imply that this was the incorrect forum for this story?



dawg2 said:


> Everything in  moderation.



Except for faith in God.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 24, 2013)

Except for faith in god? Is this not a pretty clear reason why it must be in moderation?


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Except for faith in God?


Yes, there is no such thing as too much faith in God.



> Is this not a pretty clear reason why it must be in moderation?



I've told this joke in here before, probably when talking about this very subject, but it fits the topic perfectly.

There was once a man that had great faith in God.

The man heard the news of a great flood coming to his neighborhood. The man said, "God will save me!"

One the first day the floods came and filled up the lower part of the mans house, pushing him to the second floor. Men came in a helicopter, but the man said "God will save me!"

The floods came again the second day, filled the second story, and the man had to move to the roof. The men in the helicopter came once again, but the man said to them "God will save me!"

On the third day, the flood water covered the roof and the man drowned.

When he got to Heaven, he asked God "Why didn't you save me? I had great faith!"

God said to him, "I sent a helicopter, twice!"


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 24, 2013)

Yeah.. so another finger being pointed that "they've got it all wrong"


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Yeah.. so another finger being pointed that "they've got it all wrong"



Not from me.


You're the guys telling us _we've_ got it all wrong.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 24, 2013)

You're saying that these people have too much faith in their god. It's supposedly the same god as yours, but they're doing it wrong, correct? Of course I think you've got it wrong, but we are more like polar opposites. They are only slightly different from you, but they've got it wrong?


----------



## dawg2 (Apr 24, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Everything in  moderation.





stringmusic said:


> Except for faith in God.



Well, I tend to still say "moderation" or may be perspective.  Too much of something can be a bad thing.  Too much religion, can be a bad thing.  Religious zealotry is not a positive, it is a negative, regardless of the denomination.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> You're saying that these people have too much faith in their god.



Where did I say these people have too much faith in God?


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Well, I tend to still say "moderation" or may be perspective.  Too much of something can be a bad thing.  Too much religion, can be a bad thing.  Religious zealotry is not a positive, it is a negative, regardless of the denomination.



So, do you buy into "TMJ"(Too much Jesus) syndrome?


I'm not totally disagreeing with you that most things should be taken in moderation, but living a Christ filled life is not one of them. 

I don't think that means not taking your kids to the doctor though.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 24, 2013)

That's purely your opinion of how to have faith in god. They seem to have faith more like Abraham. That's not a good thing?


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's purely your opinion of how to have faith in god. They seem to have faith more like Abraham. That's not a good thing?



This is so convoluted I'm not real sure where to begin.


I never gave an opinion on what I thought was the "correct" way to have faith in God, I simply stated that I didn't think having faith in God, or living a Christ filled life meant that you didn't take your kids to the doctor.

They seem to have faith more like Abraham?? That doesn't make very much sense. God called Abraham to give a sacrifice, and provided a lamb instead of his son, these people didn't take their sick kid to the doctor and relied on God to heal them.

If they are claiming God spoke to them directly, that He would save their children, then they are not hearing God.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 24, 2013)

How is your first part not an opinion on how to have faith in god??

I'm not saying that they feel like god asked them to sacrifice their child... but they feel like god is calling them to do something that most people in the world would think to be unhealthy and dangerous to their child's health. Sacrificing would be an extremely dangerous to a child's health..

So you can say that if they think god told them something with regards to this, then they are really not hearing god. It's a PERSONAL relationship isn't it? How would you be able to make that judgement call?


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> How is your first part not an opinion on how to have faith in god??


First part of what?



> I'm not saying that they feel like god asked them to sacrifice their child... but they feel like god is calling them to do something that most people in the world would think to be unhealthy and dangerous to their child's health. Sacrificing would be an extremely dangerous to a child's health..


And I'm saying that if they think God told them that He would heal their child if they didn't take him to the doctor, and their child is now dead, they didn't hear from God.



> So you can say that if they think god told them something with regards to this, then they are really not hearing god. It's a PERSONAL relationship isn't it? How would you be able to make that judgement call?


I can say this because God doesn't lie.

 I don't know if God told these people that He would heal them, or if they are mistaken, but I do know one thing, if they really did hear God tell them not to take their child to the doctor and He would heal them, the child would be alive right now.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Yes, there is no such thing as too much faith in God.




Except if your the Son's of the two people mentioned in the article.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Except if your the Son's of the two people mentioned in the article.



You should re-read the thread. Pay close attention to the post above this one.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You should re-read the thread. Pay close attention to the post above this one.



The post above this one IS mine!

 I am responding to the comment: "Yes, there is no such thing as too much faith in God."

Obviously there is such a thing as too much faith in God. It happens precisely at the point when they rely on that faith instead of seeking the proper help. God doesn't care how faithful anyone is, the results speak volumes for anyone that thinks he does.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> First part of what?
> 
> 
> And I'm saying that if they think God told them that He would heal their child if they didn't take him to the doctor, and their child is now dead, they didn't hear from God.
> ...



It wasn't his will?


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> The post above this one IS mine!


 You knew what I meant.



> I am responding to the comment: "Yes, there is no such thing as too much faith in God."
> 
> Obviously there is such a thing as too much faith in God. It happens precisely at the point when they rely on that faith instead of seeking the proper help. God doesn't care how faithful anyone is, the results speak volumes for anyone that thinks he does.



Obviously, they were not hearing God, they may have thought they were, but God didn't lie to them.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> It wasn't his will?



The kid dieing?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 25, 2013)

Yes


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> You knew what I meant.
> 
> 
> 
> Obviously, they were not hearing God, they may have thought they were, but God didn't lie to them.



Obviously YOU don't have a clue as to Who or What they heard.
Unless you can finally tell us that you have a direct bat-phone to God and he is telling you who he talked to??

I mean according to you there is a God, he talks to people, but it is inconceivable(to you) that God would tell them to do anything that YOU think would be non God like. These things ALWAYS seem to have a personal God that thinks,acts, hates and loves EXACTLY the same things that the individual does. And why the individual will tell everyone else that their god is so mysterious and unable to even be remotely understood by a mere human being...somehow that very same individual can not only speak for God, but tell everyone else exactly how that God interacts with others on the planet AND what that complex super being would tell another person.

You have an incredible gift there string.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Yes


I don't know.


bullethead said:


> Obviously YOU don't have a clue as to Who or What they heard.
> Unless you can finally tell us that you have a direct bat-phone to God and he is telling you who he talked to??
> 
> I mean according to you there is a God, he talks to people, but it is inconceivable(to you) that God would tell them to do anything that YOU think would be non God like. These things ALWAYS seem to have a personal God that thinks,acts, hates and loves EXACTLY the same things that the individual does. And why the individual will tell everyone else that their god is so mysterious and unable to even be remotely understood by a mere human being...somehow that very same individual can not only speak for God, but tell everyone else exactly how that God interacts with others on the planet AND what that complex super being would tell another person.
> ...



It's simple logic bullet.

God doesn't lie, and if these people say God told them that He would heal their child even if they didn't take him to the doctor, and the child is now dead, the people didn't really hear from God, because that would invalidate the claim that God doesn't lie.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know.
> 
> 
> It's simple logic bullet.
> ...



There is no logic when you insert a God.
The only difference between you and those "parents" is that you are slightly more rational when it comes to letting the care of your children be totally left into the hands of an invisible being.
"God doesn't lie"
God doesn't do anything


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 25, 2013)

I think some of you are missing the point that stringmusic made.  "IF" God told these people "do not carry your son(s) to the doctor; have faith in Me; and I will heal your son(s)" they both would be alive today.  The fact that they are not alive proves that, at very least, God didn't tell the parents that.  How do I know?  God has NEVER lied (biblically speaking).    "God doesn't do anything"???  He breathed life into you.....whether or not you accept that fact....well......that's on your shoulders.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know.
> 
> 
> It's simple logic bullet.
> ...



Let's face it... God is rarely ever CLEAR with his communication.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> There is no logic when you insert a God.



God is assumed according to your original question, unless of course, you weren't asking the question "how much faith is too much" [in God].


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> I think some of you are missing the point that stringmusic made.  "IF" God told these people "do not carry your son(s) to the doctor; have faith in Me; and I will heal your son(s)" they both would be alive today.  The fact that they are not alive proves that, at very least, God didn't tell the parents that.  How do I know?  God has NEVER lied (biblically speaking).    "God doesn't do anything"???  He breathed life into you.....whether or not you accept that fact....well......that's on your shoulders.


----------



## dawg2 (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> So, do you buy into "TMJ"(Too much Jesus) syndrome?
> 
> 
> I'm not totally disagreeing with you that most things should be taken in moderation, but living a Christ filled life is not one of them.
> ...



Yes, I believe there are people that suffer from TMJ.  They were probably already OCD to begin with.  Not unlike hoarders, alcoholics, etc., a TMJ affected person could very well "not take their kids to the doctor."


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 25, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Yes, I believe there are people that suffer from TMJ.  They were probably already OCD to begin with.  Not unlike hoarders, alcoholics, etc., a TMJ affected person could very well "not take their kids to the doctor."



But yet when you apply biblical teachings from Christ, I can find nowhere that Christ said: "thus sayeth my Father, thou shalt not seek medical attention".  Not seeking medical intervention comes from man.  Now, when a doctor says: "sorry, there is nothing we can do for you", turn to God and ask for His help.  Accept his answer, whether you like it or not.  I think the best teaching of this came from Jesus when tempted by Satan: "it is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".   The problem is not God, it is what man "wants" to interpret from God and change into his own ideals.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Yes, I believe there are people that suffer from TMJ.  They were probably already OCD to begin with.  Not unlike hoarders, alcoholics, etc., a TMJ affected person could very well "not take their kids to the doctor."


From what I'm gathering from you, you don't like when people misconstrue the faith, I don't think Jesus is at fault there.

I'll still say there is no such thing as too much Jesus in one's life.


jmh5397 said:


> But yet when you apply biblical teachings from Christ, I can find nowhere that Christ said: "thus sayeth my Father, thou shalt not seek medical attention".  Not seeking medical intervention comes from man.  Now, when a doctor says: "sorry, there is nothing we can do for you", turn to God and ask for His help.  Accept his answer, whether you like it or not.  I think the best teaching of this came from Jesus when tempted by Satan: "it is written again, thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God".   The problem is not God, it is what man "wants" to interpret from God and change into his own ideals.



You should hang around more often.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> I think some of you are missing the point that stringmusic made.  "IF" God told these people "do not carry your son(s) to the doctor; have faith in Me; and I will heal your son(s)" they both would be alive today.  The fact that they are not alive proves that, at very least, God didn't tell the parents that.  How do I know?  God has NEVER lied (biblically speaking).    "God doesn't do anything"???  He breathed life into you.....whether or not you accept that fact....well......that's on your shoulders.



Yeah God doesn't lie in the Bible, he gets his prophets to do it for him.

1 Kings 22:20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’
And one said one thing, and another said another.
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’
22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’
And the spirit said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’
And the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’
23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yeah God doesn't lie in the Bible, he gets his prophets to do it for him.
> 
> 1 Kings 22:20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’
> And one said one thing, and another said another.
> ...



Doesn't look to me like it was the Lord prophets.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> From what I'm gathering from you, you don't like when people misconstrue the faith, I don't think Jesus is at fault there.
> 
> I'll still say there is no such thing as too much Jesus in one's life.
> 
> ...



And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst. (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

 Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him. Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours. (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)

And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it. (John 14:13-14 NAB)


If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you. (John 15:7 NAB)


 On that day you will not question me about anything. Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you. Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete. (John 16:23-24 NAB)


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Doesn't look to me like it was the Lord prophets.



Spirit
I'm guessing if the spirit can come up to the Lord and converse with him it can also do his dirty work when commanded.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

2 Chronicles 18:22
    Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Jeremiah 4:10
    Ah, Lord GOD! surely thou hast greatly deceived this people.

Jeremiah 20:7
    O Lord, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived.

Ezekiel 14:9
    And if a prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet.

2 Thessalonians 2:11
    For this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive." (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)
> 
> Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)
> 
> ...



Great post! 

That is good reading!


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 2 Chronicles 18:22
> Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
> 
> Jeremiah 4:10
> ...


Where exactly does God command His prophets to lie?

You can stop now, I'm not going to get into an argument over one sentence verses you pull out of the bible.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Where exactly does God command His prophets to lie?
> 
> You can stop now, I'm not going to get into an argument over one sentence verses you pull out of the bible.



Smart move. If I was in your position I'd ask for it to stop too.


----------



## hummdaddy (Apr 25, 2013)

The craziness


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Great post!
> 
> That is good reading!



Great reading. Lies Lies Lies Yeah


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Where exactly does God command His prophets to lie?
> .



2 Chronicles 18 (New International Version)
18 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’

“One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’

“‘By what means?’ the Lord asked.

21 “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.

“‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’

22 “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Smart move. If I was in your position I'd ask for it to stop too.


LOL


bullethead said:


> 2 Chronicles 18 (New International Version)
> 18 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. 19 And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
> 
> “One suggested this, and another that. 20 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’
> ...



Didn't you already post this? My response is the same.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

2 Thessalonians 2: 9-11
9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

String, buddy, nothing out of context. When you use the Bible use all of it. God (in his own inspired words) tells you he lies.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 2 Thessalonians 2: 9-11
> 9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
> 
> String, buddy, nothing out of context. When you use the Bible use all of it. God (in his own inspired words) tells you he lies.


Point out _exactly_ where God tells me He lies.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> LOL
> 
> 
> Didn't you already post this? My response is the same.



First one I posted tells you your answer.
2 Chronicles 18:22
Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.

Don't now try to get all technical on us here.
First you said God doesn't lie.
I presented you with verses right from the Bible that specifically says (from the inspired word of God himself mind you) God lies.
Now you want me post a command from God to his prophets telling them to lie while TOTALLY overlooking all the other verses and probably next will try to interpret them in YOUR way.
2 Chronicles 18:22
He put the lying spirit in their mouth.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Point out _exactly_ where God tells me He lies.



I can honestly see why you believe and post like you do. Good luck string.


----------



## hummdaddy (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Point out _exactly_ where God tells me He lies.



GOD never told you anything


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> First one I posted tells you your answer.
> 2 Chronicles 18:22
> Now therefore, behold, the Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets.
> 
> ...



LOL, you're telling me not to get technical, yet you're saying that God putting a lying spirit in someone's mouth, by default, means that God lies.

It seems your the one getting technical. God doesnt' lie, you can google "where does God lie in the bible?" all you want, you're not going to find it.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Now you want me post a command from God to his prophets telling them to lie


Yea, I want you to point that out, because you posted this....


bullethead said:


> Yeah God doesn't lie in the Bible, he gets his prophets to do it for him.



Back up your claim.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> LOL, you're telling me not to get technical, yet you're saying that God putting a lying spirit in someone's mouth, by default, means that God lies.
> 
> It seems your the one getting technical. God doesnt' lie, you can google "where does God lie in the bible?" all you want, you're not going to find it.



Is Jesus god? Jesus says God will grant all your prayers. Don't add words , don't say God answered them and he said "no". They specifically say God Will GRANT all of your prayers.

    1)  And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen.  "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."  (Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)



    2)  Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.  (Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)



    3)  Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.  For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst.  (Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)



    4)  Amen, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it shall be done for him.  Therefore I tell you, all that you ask for in prayer, believe that you will receive it and it shall be yours.  (Mark 11:24-25 NAB)



    5)  And I tell you, ask and you will receive; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.  For everyone who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.  (Luke 11:9-13 NAB)



    6)  And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.  If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.  (John 14:13-14 NAB)



    7)  If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask for whatever you want and it will be done for you.  (John 15:7 NAB)



    8)  It was not you who chose me, but I who chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit that will remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name he may give you.  (John 15:16 NAB)



    9)  On that day you will not question me about anything.  Amen, amen, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in my name he will give you.  Until now you have not asked anything in my name; ask and you will receive, so that your joy may be complete.  (John 16:23-24 NAB)


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Yea, I want you to point that out, because you posted this....
> 
> 
> Back up your claim.



Pick one:
New International Version (©2011)
"'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said. "'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'

New Living Translation (©2007)
"And the spirit replied, 'I will go out and inspire all of Ahab's prophets to speak lies.' "'You will succeed,' said the LORD. 'Go ahead and do it.'

English Standard Version (©2001)
And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"He said, 'I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' Then He said, 'You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.'

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
"So he said, 'I will go and become a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "Then He said, 'You will entice him and also prevail. Go and do that.'

International Standard Version (©2012)
"'I will go,' he announced, 'and I will be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all of his prophets!' "So the LORD said, 'You're just the one to deceive him. You will be successful. Go and do it.'

NET Bible (©2006)
He replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' The LORD said, 'Deceive and overpower him. Go out and do as you have proposed.'

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"The Spirit answered, 'I will go out and be a spirit that tells lies through the mouths of all of Ahab's prophets.' "The LORD said, 'You will succeed in deceiving him. Go and do it.'

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and do even so.

American King James Version
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said, You shall entice him, and you shall also prevail: go out, and do even so.

American Standard Version
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answered: I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the Lord said: Thou shalt deceive, and shalt prevail: go out, and do so.

Darby Bible Translation
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and also succeed: go forth, and do so.

English Revised Version
And he said, I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: go forth, and do so.

Webster's Bible Translation
And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out and do even so.

World English Bible
"He said, 'I will go forth, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' "He said, 'You will entice him, and will prevail also. Go forth, and do so.'

Young's Literal Translation
and he saith, I go out, and have become a spirit of falsehood in the mouth of all his prophets. And He saith, Thou dost entice, and also, thou art able; go out and do so.
Geneva Study Bible

And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And {o} the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

Lies by Proxy string


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Lies by Proxy string



That is just silly bullet. The spirit is the one who is making people lie, not God, he allowed it, just like He allows evil in this world.

God doesn't lie, give it up, it's a silly argument.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> That is just silly bullet. The spirit is the one who is making people lie, not God, he allowed it, just like He allows evil in this world.
> 
> God doesn't lie, give it up, it's a silly argument.



God/Jesus, same lies.
The Prophets speak for God and they lie.
The spirit is allowed to lie in order for God to accomplish what God wants accomplished. (Where"s the free will there?)
The Bible is full of deception by God. Deception and lies go hand in hand.


Only silly thing is you reading the outright lies and not acknowledging them. Jesus says all prayers will be granted if you believe. That does not happen. It is a Lie. Jesus lied. Jesus is God. God lies.
Simple not silly.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> God/Jesus, same lies.
> The Prophets speak for God and they lie.
> The spirit is allowed to lie in order for God to accomplish what God wants accomplished. (Where"s the free will there?)
> The Bible is full of deception by God. Deception and lies go hand in hand.
> ...


Come to think of it, I asked for a pony when I was 5 and never got it, so I think you may be on to something here.


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 25, 2013)

@ bullethead....you still haven't given an example of where God lied.  Your numerous examples are of where man lied, and God's allowance of those lies.  Do you lie?  Does God allow you to lie?  Do you deceive?  Does God allow you to deceive?  Since you like to pick and choose......cause that's what we do (you know, we think we're smarter than God)....here's some picking and choosing for you....Numbers 23:19, Deuteronomy 32:4, 1 Samuel 15:29, Romans 3:4, Titus 1:1-2, Colossians 3:9-10, .....you and I can do this all day.  If you choose to believe that God is a liar based on what a man has said or done, plant yourself firmly on that rock and don't move.  Go back and read 2 Thess (the whole chapter)......God doesn't lie to us....we "perish" because we refused the truth, allowed ourselves to be deceived (Hebrew is persuaded) by man's teachings, and God sends the "delusion" because His judgment has already fallen upon us.  He also allows man to believe THE lie, not His lie.  I feel for you brother, keep reading, you'll get there!


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> @ bullethead....you still haven't given an example of where God lied.  Your numerous examples are of where man lied, and God's allowance of those lies.  Do you lie?  Does God allow you to lie?  Do you deceive?  Does God allow you to deceive?  Since you like to pick and choose......cause that's what we do (you know, we think we're smarter than God)....here's some picking and choosing for you....Numbers 23:19, Deuteronomy 32:4, 1 Samuel 15:29, Romans 3:4, Titus 1:1-2, Colossians 3:9-10, .....you and I can do this all day.  If you choose to believe that God is a liar based on what a man has said or done, plant yourself firmly on that rock and don't move.  Go back and read 2 Thess (the whole chapter)......God doesn't lie to us....we "perish" because we refused the truth, allowed ourselves to be deceived (Hebrew is persuaded) by man's teachings, and God sends the "delusion" because His judgment has already fallen upon us.  He also allows man to believe THE lie, not His lie.  I feel for you brother, keep reading, you'll get there!



Yeah, easy out. Jesus was a man when he said that. Couldn't be trusted.
Please don't feel anything for me. I am there because I have read.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Come to think of it, I asked for a pony when I was 5 and never got it, so I think you may be on to something here.



Pony/Children's lives...similar in the eyes of god. GREAT example string.


----------



## stringmusic (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Pony/Children's lives...similar in the eyes of god. GREAT example string.



I was being purposely flippant, to prove a point.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I was being purposely flippant, to prove a point.



If a devoted believer asking the Lord to heal a child does not qualify then what does?


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, easy out. Jesus was a man when he said that. Couldn't be trusted.
> Please don't feel anything for me. I am there because I have read.



Ahhhh....but reading and understanding are two different things, now aren't they?  Ask God to show you His word the next time you "read".  He's dealing with you right now.  Why else would you be asking Christians about the things that cause you to stumble?  I'm no better than you, probably worse, but I'm not bold enough to say Jesus was a liar.  Isaiah 55: 6-9.  Nice conversation, but I am also tired of the Google quick links to what God says.  For the record, I was in the same boat you are about 15 years ago.  Funny how age (or life changing circumstances) changes a man's perpective.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> Ahhhh....but reading and understanding are two different things, now aren't they?  Ask God to show you His word the next time you "read".  He's dealing with you right now.  Why else would you be asking Christians about the things that cause you to stumble?  I'm no better than you, probably worse, but I'm not bold enough to say Jesus was a liar.  Isaiah 55: 6-9.  Nice conversation, but I am also tired of the Google quick links to what God says.  For the record, I was in the same boat you are about 15 years ago.  Funny how age (or life changing circumstances) changes a man's perpective.



You just stick to what things comfort you for your needs.
I was where you are now 23 years ago so what EXACTLY is your point?

The things Jesus said in those verses absolutely do not and did not come true. Did he lie?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> He's dealing with you right now.  Why else would you be asking Christians about the things that cause you to stumble?  I'm no better than you, probably worse, but I'm not bold enough to say Jesus was a liar.  Isaiah 55: 6-9.  Nice conversation, but I am also tired of the Google quick links to what God says.



Google doesn't know what god says but YOU do?
He is "dealing" with me? (according to YOU, his personal liaison??)
I am asking Christians these things in order to find out what is in the mind of otherwise rational people that makes them fall for this stuff.

Me,Stumble? Nah


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> You just stick to what things comfort you for your needs.
> I was where you are now 23 years ago so what EXACTLY is your point?
> 
> The things Jesus said in those verses absolutely do not and did not come true. Did he lie?



So if you were where I am 23 years ago.....what happened?  I mean, how can a man that truly gave his life to the Lord decide one day, that it was all a lie?  How do you love Christ one day and humbly appreciate and accept His payment on the cross then decide the next that he was a liar and that you will pay your own way?  You're hung up because of what Jesus said in Matthew 17:20?  What about 21?  How about Matthew 19:26?  Your debating choices, while interesting, almost seem childish.  While I appreciate your thinking that I am God's liason, I am not.  My Google comments were in response to your searches, copies, and pastes.  Tell me what YOU think, not what someone else tells you to think.  My point was simple:  Since the dawn of man, we have thought we were smarter than God, only for Him to show us, repeatedly,  that He is in control and not us.  People say that they have read the bible "front to back" and this somehow makes them all knowing?  No sir!  I don't know how many times that I've read it but I can assure of this....it's not enough.  I learn everytime I open it up.  As far as your "otherwise rational people" comment..... I guess that depends on what side of the tracks you're standing on as to what rational is.  Rational as in "secular" or rational as in "spiritual"....the two don't go hand in hand.  With all that being said.....what exactly is your point?  Is it to "free" Christians from the bondage of religon?  How does my belief in God affect your life?  How does it affect you at all?  Have you somehow, made it to some pinnacle of knowledge that "us Christians" could never achieve without your input and refutation of the bible?  I want you to enlighten me on how you went from devout believer to this all-knowing rational free thinker?  String....sorry about the off topic discussion.

I hope that I am diagnosed with TMJ one day!


----------



## fish hawk (Apr 25, 2013)

When you jump off a tall building thinking you can fly?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> So if you were where I am 23 years ago.....what happened?


I have explained my situation more than enough in past threads.



jmh5397 said:


> I mean, how can a man that truly gave his life to the Lord decide one day, that it was all a lie?  How do you love Christ one day and humbly appreciate and accept His payment on the cross then decide the next that he was a liar and that you will pay your own way?


I know it boggles your mind but for 20 years I did all that. When I set out to find out the truth, a more in depth look into Jesus and God, is when the cookie started to crumble.



jmh5397 said:


> You're hung up because of what Jesus said in Matthew 17:20?  What about 21?  How about Matthew 19:26?


Not hung up on them. Great examples of what I wanted to get across.



jmh5397 said:


> Your debating choices, while interesting, almost seem childish.


Childish debating choices interest you.
Next



jmh5397 said:


> While I appreciate your thinking that I am God's liason, I am not.


I know that. I hoped you did too. Now that it is settled try not to tell me what God is doing and thinking. Unless he is just like you, which is usually the case with most of the believers that have the market cornered on god.



jmh5397 said:


> My Google comments were in response to your searches, copies, and pastes.  Tell me what YOU think, not what someone else tells you to think.


My copy/pastes were Bible verses. All other commentary is home made.



jmh5397 said:


> My point was simple:  Since the dawn of man, we have thought we were smarter than God, only for Him to show us, repeatedly,  that He is in control and not us.


That might work for you but I have yet to see an example. If the world is in his control he is not worthy of worship.



jmh5397 said:


> People say that they have read the bible "front to back" and this somehow makes them all knowing?  No sir!  I don't know how many times that I've read it but I can assure of this....it's not enough.  I learn everytime I open it up.


Me too. I learn every time I read it and reference it. And the Bible has been the single most influence on why I think it is all a crock.



jmh5397 said:


> As far as your "otherwise rational people" comment..... I guess that depends on what side of the tracks you're standing on as to what rational is. Rational as in "secular" or rational as in "spiritual"....the two don't go hand in hand.


How many tracks are there to pick sides on where to stand that involve the spiritual? That is a busy terminal when one must consider which train to pick when there are so many promises that each train will get you to the right destination. Every train has a conductor and every conductor tries to get you on their train. Oddly EVERY conductor(even the ones that work for the same company) tells you their train is better than the one sitting right next to it. Each conductor's train takes EXACTLY the same route as the conductor would take and without ever talking to management the conductor can tell others exactly what management is thinking.

No thanks, that's why I drive or fly.



jmh5397 said:


> With all that being said.....what exactly is your point?  Is it to "free" Christians from the bondage of religon?  How does my belief in God affect your life?  How does it affect you at all?  Have you somehow, made it to some pinnacle of knowledge that "us Christians" could never achieve without your input and refutation of the bible?  I want you to enlighten me on how you went from devout believer to this all-knowing rational free thinker?


I just come on here to talk to like minded people, that is why I am not up in the Christian forum trying to persuade them or telling them they are somehow wrong. Part of the package includes the believers that do not use Apologetics to make a case for their side but instead they speak for God, tell us how God thinks and acts and they use Bible verses to back it up...but the kicker is that if the Bible verses actually were a do all/end all boom shacka-lacka slam dunk, there would be no need for an AAA forum. As hard as it is to believe(even harder than invisible guys in the sky apparently) some people think the Bible is the work of mankind and no God had a part in any of it so quoting scripture does not mean squat to them.


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 25, 2013)

Then good luck....and I hope all works out for you.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 25, 2013)

jmh5397 said:


> Then good luck....and I hope all works out for you.



In all sincerity I do appreciate your well wishes. I apologize if I come across in a crass way. In all honesty I am comfortable in my beliefs and I am where I am now because I have put serious time and effort into finding out as much as I possibly could about the History of events in the Bible, the people involved, the places, the writers(not much info there), the Church, many denominations of Christianity and some info about more than a handful of other religions.

The Bible: Great compilation of stories. Excellent work. Took over 1500 years to get into it's current form. It is entertaining, it makes me think, I am impressed at times and horrified at times. It contains facts, fables and folklore. For as great of a work(s) as it is, it is certainly lacking in any capabilities of something worthy of being called a God.


----------



## jmh5397 (Apr 26, 2013)

@ bullethead    Nahhhh...it's no problem!  We're just having a discussion with a difference of opinions.  We're big boys and can handle the fact that not everybody is going to agree with us 100% of the time.  Hate you feel the way you do, but I can't change that.


----------



## atlashunter (May 2, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Yes, there is no such thing as too much faith in God.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not much of a god that requires the work of others so that he can take the credit. Any old god can fit that bill.

Praise be to the milk jug!


----------



## atlashunter (May 2, 2013)

These two morons should be locked up until they are too old to have any more children.


----------

