# Well if the last comments from the Pope didn’t fire you up....



## Day trip (Apr 28, 2018)

https://www.cnn.com/2017/02/23/world/pope-atheists-again/index.html


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## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2018)

I find it odd that the Catholic church has so far been the leader in Christian reformation and enlightenment.  I always thought of them as  so backward with their funny hats and incense.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2018)

Ive asked on this forum what the Christians thought about this very matter.
Which is worse, an Atheist who doesn't believe or a Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk?
I was more or less told those Christians weren't "real" Christians.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I find it odd that the Catholic church has so far been the leader in Christian reformation and enlightenment.  I always thought of them as  so backward with their funny hats and incense.


This particular Pope gets a lot of heat from a lot of Catholics (including the Catholic hierarchy) for not being "backwards" enough.


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2018)

yes he talked about the shady businessmen and whatnot. I get that. But not a word about the priests that molest kids and the church transfers them and covers it up. Just my opinion but that to me is the 500 pound gorilla in the room here.


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## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Ive asked on this forum what the Christians thought about this very matter.
> Which is worse, an Atheist who doesn't believe or a Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk?
> I was more or less told those Christians weren't "real" Christians.



A Christian who talks the talk but can’t walk the walk is worse, in my opinion. A lot of people are “Christian” when they get in trouble.

Revelation 3: 15&16


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## welderguy (Apr 28, 2018)

Show me one person who can walk the walk....then we will talk.


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## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Show me one person who can walk the walk....then we will talk.



There’s plenty of folk that “practice what they preach”. Those that do not are referred to as hypocrites.


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## Day trip (Apr 28, 2018)

My take is that in scrolling through the quotes, Pope Francis offered apologies to many groups.  I think one more is needed.  To all of the followers, especially pre-Vatican II who where simply told to obey rules and not question anything.  These people have lived their whole lives according to somebody else’s standard because they where naive enough to believe that protocol alone was enough.  At no point did the Catholic Church force this point but I feel that they did not do anything to dispel the myth.  So because of it, many younger people are saying, “this is bullish!+” and have left the Church.  Ultimately, it come down to this, who is responsible for you?  Some group or yourself?  If we hold ourselves responsible and live and act with love  then very often we are “following Jesus” even if we call it by some other name.  
That’s why the some atheists are far better than some Christians.  

Terminology is a problem here.  I’ve never met a true atheist.  I’ve met plenty of “atheist” who didn’t believe in somebody else’s ideas about religion.


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## welderguy (Apr 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> There’s plenty of folk that “practice what they preach”. Those that do not are referred to as hypocrites.



Which one are you?


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## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Which one are you?



I’m not perfect if that’s where you’re headed. But that’s not what walking the walk is about.


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## Day trip (Apr 28, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> This particular Pope gets a lot of heat from a lot of Catholics (including the Catholic hierarchy) for not being "backwards" enough.



Its not really backwards.  It’s human nature to want rules and protocol.  That’s all they want.  To be told that they are right and that they are doing enough.  It’s really CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored hard to move beyond that.  Good enough isn’t good enough.  Virtually everyine avoids pain and suffering at all costs and very often it is pain and suffering that humbles us enough to start seeing beyond our own desires.


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## welderguy (Apr 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not perfect if that’s where you’re headed. But that’s not what walking the walk is about.



So where do you draw the line between not quite perfect and hypocrite?


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## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So where do you draw the line between not quite perfect and hypocrite?



Not quite perfect verses hypocrite = are you making honest mistakes and then correcting them after learning of them, or are you goofing up on purpose on things you say are wrong or on premeditated situations because you can get away with it because no one is looking????


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## welderguy (Apr 28, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Not quite perfect verses hypocrite = are you making honest mistakes and then correcting them after learning of them, or are you goofing up on purpose on things you say are wrong or on premeditated situations because you can get away with it because no one is looking????



I would suggest to you that every single  person has moments of hypocrisy.
If he thinks otherwise, he's deceived, and thinks too highly of himself.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 28, 2018)

I thought we couldn't walk the walk and thus why we needed to repent from thinking that we could. To believing that Jesus could walk the walk for us.
If I could walk the walk, I would save myself.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 28, 2018)

2 Peter 2:21
For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to have turned from the holy commandment having been delivered to them.

What was the holy commandment? Is this what the Pope was referring to? Why would it be better to never hear?


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## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> I would suggest to you that every single  person has moments of hypocrisy.
> If he thinks otherwise, he's deceived, and thinks too highly of himself.


I’m sorry but I don’t get up in the morning with thoughts of what I can get away with. 

I have my “temptations” and stumbles in life as any human would. I make my mistakes, but I don’t set myself up or create situations on purpose to act on those. 

It goes deeper than religion, it’s called character.


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## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Which is worse, an Atheist who doesn't believe or a Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk?
> I was more or less told those Christians weren't "real" Christians.





Artfuldodger said:


> I thought we couldn't walk the walk and thus why we needed to repent from thinking that we could. To believing that Jesus could walk the walk for us.
> If I could walk the walk, I would save myself.


I read Walt’s question as in “real Christian” practicing what they preach verses “fake Christian” or commonly known as hypocrite......”doing the talk but can’t do the walk” or can’t live by what they claim.

I’m not sure how you’re reading it.


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## welderguy (Apr 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m sorry but I don’t get up in the morning with thoughts of what I can get away with.
> 
> I have my “temptations” and stumbles in life as any human would. I make my mistakes, but I don’t set myself up or create situations on purpose to act on those.
> 
> It goes deeper than religion, it’s called character.



And the hypocrites defend themselves the same way.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I read Walt’s question as in “real Christian” practicing what they preach verses “fake Christian” or commonly known as hypocrite......”doing the talk but can’t do the walk” or can’t live by what they claim.
> 
> I’m not sure how you’re reading it.


Yes you are pretty much reading it right.
But I do want to clarify -
Its not that they CANT "walk the walk" as in trying their best but nobody is perfect so they sometimes fail/sin.
Its that they point their fingers at others and then turn around and do the same thing.
An example could be the church lady pointing her finger at others and pointing out their sins and all the while she is having an affair with the gardener.


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## Spotlite (Apr 29, 2018)

welderguy said:


> And the hypocrites defend themselves the same way.


I’m sure they do. Not sure where you’re going. But tread softly. 


WaltL1 said:


> Yes you are pretty much reading it right.
> But I do want to clarify -
> Its not that they CANT "walk the walk" as in trying their best but nobody is perfect so they sometimes fail/sin.
> Its that they point their fingers at others and then turn around and do the same thing.
> An example could be the church lady pointing her finger at others and pointing out their sins and all the while she is having an affair with the gardener.


Absolutely agree with this!


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Ive asked on this forum what the Christians thought about this very matter.
> Which is worse, an Atheist who doesn't believe or a Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk?
> I was more or less told those Christians weren't "real" Christians.



I guess you are speaking of the obvious condemnation of the hypocrite.

Have you never found it interesting what is said in Revelation 3:16?


So then because you are lukewarm, and _neither cold nor hot_, I will spew you out of my mouth.

We could perhaps see or say "OK, Jesus is for 'keeping' the fiery, the hot, the fervent, in His love."  Yes..."I can see some sense and reason to that."

We could also perhaps see, or say "The tepid, the lukewarm, (how might they appear? could they be hypocritical perhaps...?) ...well that would kinda make sense...who doesn't find the half hearted, the 'on the fencers'...the ones with "no interest" so to speak in the things they "belong to the club" by...but really maybe just there for convenience' sake...yeah, they could be an offense to someone who has 'given all'..."


But the cold?!!!! That throws a monkey wrench into all of it! 

If only He says "I vomit the lukewarm...and the cold..." Oh, the seeming sense to that! A man could _buy_ that. After all, then...if Jesus kept only the hot, and "I am being kept"...(what an appeal to a man)...I must be "of the fervent and hot!"

It's not far then from there to "hey look at me! I'm on fire for the Lord!"

But, He doesn't say that. No, He does not.

There's a lot more going on "inside" of Jesus Christ than meets the _seeming sensible_ eye.

Why would a man, or _a_ God, have any desire in keeping what constantly shows him the "cold shoulder"?
We say of such a man..."poor fool, he hasn't learned she is so far out of his league"


But, to the man pursuing he knows! He knows. That intent in the cold shoulder at every turn, that clear statement "I will have no part with the likes of you!" means something.

Yes. He is indeed a stalker...but not of the sort who remains "outside" in the bushes...or lurks furtively taking pictures...He is the one who knows that in every intent of hers to clearly show the cold shoulder, He has entered her mind. He's already...in her house.

He is far more than willing in His patience, observing her presumption to think "she knows all of him"...waiting for opportune time to show her of himself...what she does not know in her summation, a thing she never saw coming.

"When it pleased God to reveal His Son in me..."

And so men have a glimpse of this understanding when they say "the opposite of love is not hate...but indifference"

There are a gazillion ways a man may try and show a_ true hate for the Lord,_ struggling to make it appear as some sort of true...indifference.  But, Jesus knows. Jesus knows why men flock to read a thousand books refuting the validity of the scriptures, why they flock to certain men for their opinion to buttress themselves _against_.

Jesus knows why men _must_ come..._kicking...and screaming._

And why the disciple's inner workings is far more usually "this cannot be!" than ever it is "I already _knew_ that"


Even breathing out threatenings against the Lord.

It is hard to kick against the goads.


LOOK! Some of your own prophets know!

One says "I have struggled to separate Jesus from religion" (O! The rest in knowing this already has been Jesus's work!)

Another speaks of Jesus pooping cotton candy...knowing...(perhaps far beyond the knowledge of the lukewarm)...that the resurrection MUST turn all of _man's rationality_ on its ear. In some _right fear_ of discovery...for what will then happen to the man whose own rationality...is so disposed? (I simply do not see how one can live without it!) Yes, the fear of the Lord...may even abide in _what appears_ the least likely spot.

Another has said "The God I cannot comprehend, that is so far beyond my own ability to understand or relate to...is the God I can believe in" (NOT ver batim)

One needn't stay a Caiaphas.


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## welderguy (Apr 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I’m sure they do. Not sure where you’re going. But tread softly.



Let me try to say this as softly as I can.

You and I are nothing more than dressed up dirt, of ourselves.
As Paul put it, "when I would do good, evil is present with me."

1 Corinthians 10:12 
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 29, 2018)

Israel said:


> I guess you are speaking of the obvious condemnation of the hypocrite.
> 
> Have you never found it interesting what is said in Revelation 3:16?
> 
> ...





> So then because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth


Maybe? -
Cold = Atheist/non believers in God. No promise to God, don't claim any of the benefits (heaven etc) of believing.
Hot = Trying their best daily to "walk the walk". Hot doesnt mean perfect. Hot could = the effort, the attitude.
Lukewarm = just going through the motions. "I believe so I get the rewards but hey if I screw up so what I still believe".
It would appear God is putting a priority on the promise you have made to him.
"You promised me but you aren't holding up your end of the deal and that's worse than not promising at all"?


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## Spotlite (Apr 29, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Which is worse, an Atheist who doesn't believe or a Christian who talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk?
> .





Spotlite said:


> A Christian who talks the talk but can’t walk the walk is worse, in my opinion.
> 
> Revelation 3: 15&16





Spotlite said:


> There’s plenty of folk that “practice what they preach”. Those that do not are referred to as hypocrites.





Spotlite said:


> I’m not perfect if that’s where you’re headed. But that’s not what walking the walk is about.





WaltL1 said:


> An example could be the church lady pointing her finger at others and pointing out their sins and all the while she is having an affair with the gardener.





WaltL1 said:


> Cold = Atheist/non believers in God. No promise to God, don't claim any of the benefits (heaven etc) of believing.
> Hot = Trying their best daily to "walk the walk". Hot doesnt mean perfect. Hot could = the effort, the attitude.
> Lukewarm = just going through the motions. "I believe so I get the rewards but hey if I screw up so what I still believe"





welderguy said:


> Let me try to say this as softly as I can.
> 
> You and I are nothing more than dressed up dirt, of ourselves.
> As Paul put it, "when I would do good, evil is present with me."
> ...


Welder, I think you’re on a different path than the subject at hand. Read the above comments again please.


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## welderguy (Apr 29, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Welder, I think you’re on a different path than the subject at hand. Read the above comments again please.



Maybe I am, but I just needed you to grasp the fact that we are all hypocritical by nature. We can't escape it, of ourselves.

I think I get what you're saying. Correct me if wrong.
You're making a distinction between those who are grossly hypocritical, and those who are only somewhat hypocritical(by man's standards).. If so, I can see that.

Some people are so hypocritical that they don't even try to hide it! (big grin emoticon)


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## WaltL1 (Apr 29, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Maybe I am, but I just needed you to grasp the fact that we are all hypocritical by nature. We can't escape it, of ourselves.
> 
> I think I get what you're saying. Correct me if wrong.
> You're making a distinction between those who are grossly hypocritical, and those who are only somewhat hypocritical(by man's standards).. If so, I can see that.





> we are all hypocritical by nature. We can't escape it


Being human that's pretty much true.
So it boils down to attitude/honesty -
1. "Being human, I am not perfect. I admit I can be hypocritical. I try not to be but I sometimes fail".
2. "That darn Martha can be a hypocrite sometimes. She's not a good Christian like me".


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> 2 Peter 2:21
> For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to have turned from the holy commandment having been delivered to them.
> 
> What was the holy commandment? Is this what the Pope was referring to? Why would it be better to never hear?


 
"And he who knew His masters will but did it not..."

"if you know these things...happy are you if you do them..." (there's an obverse to that) 
it _might _be "miserable if you _do not_"

A man sets up his own discord in relationship to what he knows. If there be knowing...it is of God..."a man can receive nothing except it be given him from above"  

A man cannot even "know" that he knows anything except that be given him...from above. Jesus says a curious thing (well, curious except that Jesus says it, and therefore means it)

"We _know_ what we do worship, for salvation is of the Jews"

Do you think Jesus is boasting there? Or might there be a something else? What if...what was _of necessity_ given to the Jews (and my deepest gratitude for Hummerpoo's understanding and help here...even if I am wrong in my apprehension of what some may call the doctrine of "of necessity").

But the Jews were given something, the Hebrews, the tribes, a thing of immeasurable worth...the Law. We of faith _know_ that by the law...comes the knowledge of sin. "I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came...sin revived, and I died".

What is of more value to a man who believes he is healthy...but an X-Ray reveals an incipient illness? A thing that looks inside to reveal?  

Now, we also know that "having the law" is of no power to change a man...just as the X Ray may not be the medical regimen of healing...just revealing. (I speak as a man)


But what do we also know? An advantage can be taken by a liar to exalt those in mind who have the law...that merely having it...makes them...better, healthier, superior...to all others. But...is this so? The scriptures are rife with those who have been judged according to that...invitation to judgment. 

No, the law properly seen is what allows a man to see his right standing before the all righteous God..."I am sick...help". And no man is wrong to say "I am indeed thankful to God for that Holy, Righteous and Good...X- Ray...for without it, I would not know my desperate need (of necessity) that calls out (of necessity) for the Healer. 

Therefore Jesus' statement is no longer so curious. The Jews, of necessity, in receiving the law, the report, the Doctor's right interpretation of their standing before "all health"...leads them to a "thing" to know.  

And I am persuaded we would be very amiss to make too many assumptions regarding Jesus relationship to the law...that could lead to any...anything...that might even hint of a dismissiveness.

Salvation came (of necessity), salvation IS, of necessity, through the working (through those whom God had indeed _chosen_ to be separate) of God...through those.

"salvation is of the Jews"

All boasting as to ones own estate in being chosen is remedied here when a man works through, or a peoples, or even (and specifically) the Church, of being chosen to carry such a death within as revealed in the law...to the end that _a true heart's cry_...be answered...in truth. The Healer.

Where is boasting then? Is it in, "I have been given something that kills _me_?" Makes plain what is_ in me_...is all of unrighteousness? But when the law has accomplished _its work_, and only then...is need of Salvation, true need of salvation (of necessity) able to make plain (of necessity) the form of the Healer, coming.

Some may rightly say "I have never been a jew, I have never been given the law"...therefore...what have I to do with it? Such a man may think..."I have wholly lived apart from the knowledge of sin...and besides...who would ever need that, opt...for that?"

Really? "I am better than the Jews...for I have no knowledge of sin"? Really?

If that illness man embraced in the fall were not as desperately dark and of all ways blinding to the mind and heart toward God, what _necessity_ of Jesus Christ's coming? Of what necessity, the cross? And if they are of "no necessity"...then _neither_ is the resurrection.

One who receives the Lord, receives _all_ (that is) in the Lord. If this be not found in Jesus Christ:

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid.
And this: Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

And, lest we forget this:

But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

We in Christ have submitted to a far deeper searching out than a thing that only points to sin and death. We have a course set to true life...past that. But we cannot (or can we?) deny that in this exploration to ALL that is true, we are called past...what is God given precisely to the end of making the Prince of Life clear...(of necessity) in our sight?

There is Someone waiting to be seen...past the death...the law righteously ministers.

Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.

For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.


Paul had some words for those like me: 

Now you are full, now you are rich, you have reigned as kings without us: and I would to God you did reign, that we also might reign with you.

Obviously he endured much from those like me who are inclined to think a _certain way_:

For it seems to me that God has displayed us apostles at the end of the procession, like prisoners appointed for death. We have become a spectacle to the whole world, to angels as well as to men. We are fools for Christ, but you are wise in Christ. We are weak, but you are strong. You are honored, but we are dishonored.

To this very hour we are hungry and thirsty, we are poorly clad, we are brutally treated, we are homeless. We work hard with our own hands. When we are vilified, we bless; when we are persecuted, we endure it; when we are slandered, we answer gently. Up to this moment we have become the scum of the earth, the refuse of the world.

Thankfully he does not end there:

I am not writing this to shame you, but to warn you as my beloved children. Even if you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.

Therefore I urge you to imitate me.

A man is set to an irresistible thing.

And, a man, like me no less. But I am set to a thing. And it will be _what it must be_. _Even_ someone like me...can't avoid it.

It will be either:

"What God is able do with even the arrogant and prideful!"

or 
"Oh, my, look what God _does to_ the arrogant and prideful"

But, it is God. Always, and only.  God knows what is _of resistance_.

God has given...and made known...what is of all compliance.

Even to the lifting on a pole as to some _resembles_ as done by Moses.

A Holy thing submitted in all Righteounsess to be made no more than a sign. Yet, a sign to all peoples and nations.

All Glory to Him.


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## Spotlite (Apr 30, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Maybe I am, but I just needed you to grasp the fact that we are all hypocritical by nature. We can't escape it, of ourselves.
> 
> I think I get what you're saying. Correct me if wrong.
> You're making a distinction between those who are grossly hypocritical, and those who are only somewhat hypocritical(by man's standards).. If so, I can see that.
> ...


Below is pretty concise of what I mean by “walk the walk” and not be a hypocrite.


WaltL1 said:


> Its that they point their fingers at others and then turn around and do the same thing.
> An example could be the church lady pointing her finger at others and pointing out their sins and all the while she is having an affair with the gardener.


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## 660griz (Apr 30, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> It goes deeper than religion, it’s called character.



Amen.


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## welderguy (Apr 30, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Below is pretty concise of what I mean by “walk the walk” and not be a hypocrite.



Even Walt agreed we are all hypocritical by nature.
I don't understand why you can't.


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## 660griz (Apr 30, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Even Walt agreed we are all hypocritical by nature.
> I don't understand why you can't.



Well, I disagree with both, then. I don't pretend to be someone I am not. I was born poor white trash and I am just a well paid, and more educated, version of white trash now. 
I treat everyone with respect until they prove otherwise.
I just bought a new truck after 13 years with my old one and I feel a little guilty driving it. Afraid folks will think I am uppity.  
I try to do the 'right' thing even when no one is watching. Right thing meaning what I think is right and still be able to sleep at night.

All that being said, if it makes you feel better to think of everyone as a hypocrite then, I am o.k. with that. 
Participation trophies all around.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Even Walt agreed we are all hypocritical by nature.
> I don't understand why you can't.


I do agree that we are all hypocritical by nature but I think we are coming at it from different angles.
Ask the guy who drives 5 miles over the speed limit if he is a "criminal". He is more than likely going to say no but technically he is.
Ask the same guy if someone breaking into their house is a criminal and more than likely he is going to yes.
Yeah there is a huge difference between the two but its still an example of "hypocrisy".
I get the impression you are viewing it from the angle of "we are all filthy rags" or inherently "evil" etc.


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## Spotlite (Apr 30, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Even Walt agreed we are all hypocritical by nature.
> I don't understand why you can't.



We are not discussing being a hypocrite by nature. For lack of better words............we are discussing being a hypocrite on purpose, or willfully knowing.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 30, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> We are not discussing being a hypocrite by nature. For lack of better words............we are discussing being a hypocrite on purpose, or willfully knowing.



Can one sin by accident or is all sin on purpose? The way I see salvation is it's a gift from God by grace and not works.

Basically, your actions, works, etc. are from the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your election is a gift from God, based on grace and not works. God isn't going to take it away based on your "hypocrite" abilities.

We all have weaknesses which may only be lust in our hearts, adultery, or not being able to forgive others. Maybe drunkenness or jealousy. Physical fleshy sins or mindful fleshy sins. It could be physical like a glutton or mindful like anger or pride. Maybe not being able to forgive others. We all see the sins of others as worse than our sins.

Regardless, salvation is from God so I'm not sure what any of the verses mean about it would be better to have never known than to know Jesus. 

Honestly the responsibility of man, within the confines of a belief that God calls, the Potter molds, and the fruit of the Holy Spirit reveals is a bit of a mystery.

Think about it, how can a man called by the Father to seek the Son, do something that would make the Father make his Son reject the man? Especially if the Son is the Father within the defines of the Unity. 
The same unity we are provided by being a part of Salvation. Becoming an heir with Jesus. Seeing Jesus as he is and becoming like him.

How can something, some action, make God turn his back on a son or Son? An heir? A son? What could your son or daughter do to make you dis-own them? What backsliding event? What action? Anger? Lust? Jealousy? 
Drug abuse? Homosexuality? Dating a black man? Adultery?  Unforgiveness?

Could you not forgive your daughter because she could not forgive you or others?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 30, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I read Walt’s question as in “real Christian” practicing what they preach verses “fake Christian” or commonly known as hypocrite......”doing the talk but can’t do the walk” or can’t live by what they claim.
> 
> I’m not sure how you’re reading it.



Within Christianity I see two concepts. One is that we can never live or be good enough to save ourselves. Therefore we need a Savior to die for our inability.
I see that as a repentance of our mindset. To change from thinking that our ability or works can save us from eternal death. To a change or a repentance from believing that we can save ourselves by our works to believing Jesus died because we couldn't.

That's one concept I'll call salvation by grace. Next is the concept that our works plays some part in our salvation.
The separation of the good from the evil. The goats from the sheep. Those who never fed or clothed Jesus. 
Those who never forgave their neighbors or enemies. 
Those whose fruits make it appear their salvation was taken away. Their sonship abandoned. Their inheritance removed.
I guess this concept is somehow called salvation by works? Salvation based on man's abilities? Salvation based on man's strength to not back slide. Man's abilities to forgive others? Man's abilities to not drink too much or choose same sex partners? Man's abilities to not be jealous or angry? 
To overcome the physical and mindful sins we have inherited?


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## Spotlite (Apr 30, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can one sin by accident or is all sin on purpose? The way I see salvation is it's a gift from God by grace and not works.
> 
> Basically, your actions, works, etc. are from the fruit of the Holy Spirit. Your election is a gift from God, based on grace and not works. God isn't going to take it away based on your "hypocrite" abilities.
> 
> ...


Again, the question was which is worse; an atheist who doesn’t believe or a Christian who talks the talk but doesn’t walk the walk. 

The example given was the church lady pointing out others sins while she’s having an affair with the gardener.

She’s worse than the atheist in regard to the question. At least you know where  the atheist stands, but you can’t be sure about her.


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## Israel (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I do agree that we are all hypocritical by nature but I think we are coming at it from different angles.
> Ask the guy who drives 5 miles over the speed limit if he is a "criminal". He is more than likely going to say no but technically he is.
> Ask the same guy if someone breaking into their house is a criminal and more than likely he is going to yes.
> Yeah there is a huge difference between the two but its still an example of "hypocrisy".
> I get the impression you are viewing it from the angle of "we are all filthy rags" or inherently "evil" etc.



I think that's a good example.
And you also made the comment elsewhere...regarding those who may be better off not making a promise...than those who make it and either break it, or show no regard for keeping it.

As to your example above, well, actually, it's quite ample.
And I was going to say more about it till I saw how well it tied into your other comment about promises.

There's a deeper, or better, _real _harmony to be heard when heard together rather than in "part".

Two things come to mind rather instantly.

Some use words to clarify a thing, others to obscure it.

(and though I couldn't find the source for that quote, nor determine if I recalled it verbatim...it led me to this page...which kinda blew my mind with its contents...
https://www.brainyquote.com/topics/conceal)

And this:

Officer: Ma'am, didn't you see the sign back there that said 35 MPH?

Woman: Why yes, of course I saw it officer. It's you I didn't see.



"As soon as Jesus was alone with the Twelve and those around Him, they asked Him about the parable. And He told them, “The mystery of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those on the outside, everything is expressed in parables, so that, ‘they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven."




It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

Israel said:


> I think that's a good example.
> And you also made the comment elsewhere...regarding those who may be better off not making a promise...than those who make it and either break it, or show no regard for keeping it.
> 
> As to your example above, well, actually, it's quite ample.
> ...



That's a cool page.  The Magritte quote brought to mind a quote from Picasso:

"Art is a lie that tells the truth".

I thought you might like that.


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