# ETERNAL LIFE CAN BE LOST



## Banjo Picker

Unconditional securityites say, "A believer can never be lost. If anyone is lost he was never saved . . . Eternal life would not be eternal if it could be lost. Would salvation be salvation if it could be lost? If a single saved man is ever lost , God has failed . . . Christ is insufficient to keep them saved and God is unfaithful to them . . . Once in grace always in grace and once a son always a son is perfectly scriptural." These statements from prominent men in religious circles in America are some of the most unwise and unscriptural ones of any that we have read . They are the basis of a theory that violates the laws of God, nature , and logic. As a mental proposition such theory assumes an unsound position and is a disgrace to the art of human reasoning. Just because a man is once saved from sin and He11 is no sign that he cannot go back into sin and be lost again and finally go to He11. No Scripture has yet been found that says he cannot lose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than statements of men to prove this claim.

One might as well argue that a man was never a man if he was ever lost, as to argue salvation is not salvation if it could be lost. As well argue that eternal life is not eternal should it ever be lost. Such reasoning is not logical from any standpoint. One may as well argue once a child of the devil always a child of the devil; once a sinner always a sinner; once alive always alive; once saved from drowning always saved from drowning; once full of food always full of food; or some other illogical principle as to argue once saved always saved or once a child of God always a child of God or once in grace always in grace. Such an argument is out of harmony with all creation and every principle of life. In every phase of life there are certain conditions to meet to maintain that phase of life. Neglect eating food and the body will die. neglect a garden, a home or anything in the natural realm and it will fall into decay and ruin. Nothing in natural ever attains through life processes a state of being which it can never fall. Let unfavorable conditions arise and the very elements that caused the life to be quicken and sustained will cause it to die. All natural life is dependent upon proper and proportionate air rain sunshine and normal conditions to keep it alive.

So it is with the soul, let it be quickened _from above_ and go back into sin, which causes death, and it will die again. It is not a question of taking the man out of the human family or of the soul ceasing to be a soul should it go back into sin and be lost, but it is a question of the continued life of the soul by continuous quickening _from above_ to keep it from dying again. The law is "if ye live after the flesh,_ ye shall die_; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,_ ye shall live"_ Rom. 8:13; and "the soul that sinneth it shall die" (Ezek. 18:4, 19-24; 33:12-20).


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## tell sackett




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## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> Unconditional securityites say, "A believer can never be lost. If anyone is lost he was never saved . . . Eternal life would not be eternal if it could be lost. Would salvation be salvation if it could be lost? If a single saved man is ever lost , God has failed . . . Christ is insufficient to keep them saved and God is unfaithful to them . . . Once in grace always in grace and once a son always a son is perfectly scriptural." These statements from prominent men in religious circles in America are some of the most unwise and unscriptural ones of any that we have read . They are the basis of a theory that violates the laws of God, nature , and logic. As a mental proposition such theory assumes an unsound position and is a disgrace to the art of human reasoning. Just because a man is once saved from sin and He11 is no sign that he cannot go back into sin and be lost again and finally go to He11. No Scripture has yet been found that says he cannot lose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than statements of men to prove this claim.
> 
> One might as well argue that a man was never a man if he was ever lost, as to argue salvation is not salvation if it could be lost. As well argue that eternal life is not eternal should it ever be lost. Such reasoning is not logical from any standpoint. One may as well argue once a child of the devil always a child of the devil; once a sinner always a sinner; once alive always alive; once saved from drowning always saved from drowning; once full of food always full of food; or some other illogical principle as to argue once saved always saved or once a child of God always a child of God or once in grace always in grace. Such an argument is out of harmony with all creation and every principle of life. In every phase of life there are certain conditions to meet to maintain that phase of life. Neglect eating food and the body will die. neglect a garden, a home or anything in the natural realm and it will fall into decay and ruin. Nothing in natural ever attains through life processes a state of being which it can never fall. Let unfavorable conditions arise and the very elements that caused the life to be quicken and sustained will cause it to die. All natural life is dependent upon proper and proportionate air rain sunshine and normal conditions to keep it alive.
> 
> So it is with the soul, let it be quickened _from above_ and go back into sin, which causes death, and it will die again. It is not a question of taking the man out of the human family or of the soul ceasing to be a soul should it go back into sin and be lost, but it is a question of the continued life of the soul by continuous quickening _from above_ to keep it from dying again. The law is "if ye live after the flesh,_ ye shall die_; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,_ ye shall live"_ Rom. 8:13; and "the soul that sinneth it shall die" (Ezek. 18:4, 19-24; 33:12-20).


I think I see what you are saying. The first time you are save by God's grace & the blood of Jesus. If you fall back into sin, you are then saved by yourself the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time.


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## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> Unconditional securityites say, "A believer can never be lost. If anyone is lost he was never saved . . . Eternal life would not be eternal if it could be lost. Would salvation be salvation if it could be lost? If a single saved man is ever lost , God has failed . . . Christ is insufficient to keep them saved and God is unfaithful to them . . . Once in grace always in grace and once a son always a son is perfectly scriptural." These statements from prominent men in religious circles in America are some of the most unwise and unscriptural ones of any that we have read . They are the basis of a theory that violates the laws of God, nature , and logic. As a mental proposition such theory assumes an unsound position and is a disgrace to the art of human reasoning. Just because a man is once saved from sin and He11 is no sign that he cannot go back into sin and be lost again and finally go to He11. No Scripture has yet been found that says he cannot lose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than statements of men to prove this claim.
> 
> One might as well argue that a man was never a man if he was ever lost, as to argue salvation is not salvation if it could be lost. As well argue that eternal life is not eternal should it ever be lost. Such reasoning is not logical from any standpoint. One may as well argue once a child of the devil always a child of the devil; once a sinner always a sinner; once alive always alive; once saved from drowning always saved from drowning; once full of food always full of food; or some other illogical principle as to argue once saved always saved or once a child of God always a child of God or once in grace always in grace. Such an argument is out of harmony with all creation and every principle of life. In every phase of life there are certain conditions to meet to maintain that phase of life. Neglect eating food and the body will die. neglect a garden, a home or anything in the natural realm and it will fall into decay and ruin. Nothing in natural ever attains through life processes a state of being which it can never fall. Let unfavorable conditions arise and the very elements that caused the life to be quicken and sustained will cause it to die. All natural life is dependent upon proper and proportionate air rain sunshine and normal conditions to keep it alive.
> 
> So it is with the soul, let it be quickened _from above_ and go back into sin, which causes death, and it will die again. It is not a question of taking the man out of the human family or of the soul ceasing to be a soul should it go back into sin and be lost, but it is a question of the continued life of the soul by continuous quickening _from above_ to keep it from dying again. The law is "if ye live after the flesh,_ ye shall die_; but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body,_ ye shall live"_ Rom. 8:13; and "the soul that sinneth it shall die" (Ezek. 18:4, 19-24; 33:12-20).


What's your belief or definition on eternal death? Meaning if eternal life is lost, where would one spend eternal death?


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## Banjo Picker

Artfuldodger said:


> What's your belief or definition on eternal death? Meaning if eternal life is lost, where would one spend eternal death?



Eternal death simply means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. It is called the _second death which is the lake of fire_ Rev. 2:11; 19:20; 20:10-15; 21:8).


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## Banjo Picker

Suppose that once a son always a son, is true, that would not do away with the fact that a son can die and go to He11 because of sin. However human beings are not sons of God in the sense that Jesus is. He is the "only begotten So" Jn. 1:14; 3:16-18, hence our new birth is not in the sense of sonship like His. Men are only "adopted" sons from another family Rom. 8:14-17; Gal. 4:5-7. They are not even "created" sons as were Adam and other beings in the universe Lk. 3:38; Job. 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. they are merely the offspring of Adam and belong to his family and can never become sons of God except by "adoption". They were not only born sons of man, but spiritually they were born in sin and sons of the devil. Jesus said of sinners: "ye are of your father the devil Jn. 8:41-44; Matt. 13:38). Other call sinners, children of the devil Acts 13:10; 26:18; Eph. 21:1-3; 1 Jn. 3:8-10.


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## Madman

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I see what you are saying. The first time you are save by God's grace & the blood of Jesus. If you fall back into sin, you are then saved by yourself the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time.



We are saved by grace, God’s favor and goodness towards us.

If I am saved, it is all God, if I am not, it is all me.


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## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> No Scripture has yet been found that says he cannot lose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than statements of men to prove this claim.


Romans 8:30


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## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> Romans 8:30



Like I said no Scripture has yet been found. now let's see what Rom. 8:30 means
Rom. 8;30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Meaning, God has foreordained, determined, and predestinated that all men be called to Salvation, BUT THAT ONLY THE ONES WHO ACCEPT BECOME GENUINE CALLED ONES TO BE JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED. None are glorified, BUT THOSE WHO ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, MEET THE TERMS OF THE GOSPEL. Who THEY WILL BE is LEFT UP TO THE INDIVDUAL (Jn.3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 3:19. All THINGS DEPEND UPON MEETING THE CONDITIONS OF THE GOSPEL Rom. 8:1-13, 8. This verse says nothing about that, eternal life cannot be lost.


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## Banjo Picker

Hence, if the argument of analogy with the human race be true and if _once a so aways a son_ could be altered as is argued, then it would disprove _once in grace aways in grace_, for all men are born sons of the devil out of grace, and they could never become sons of God in grace. for once sons of the devil and out of grace would make men always sons of the devil and out of grace and no man could ever change sonships or get into grace. No man could be unborn of the devil and become a son of God. This is just as true in connection with the devil as it would be of God.

If men were born sons of the devil and if once a son always a son cannot be altered, then this would mean a sinner could never be saved. It would mean that one must always be a child of the devil and could not by any means ever be a child of God. Men ought to thank God that such a theory is false. Therefore, being a son then does not prove that one cannot be adopted into another family, or that he cannot be cut off and disinherited and punished in eternal banishment from all family rights and privileges. What is the advantage of being a son if one is disfellowshipped to the point of being cut off to die and be sent to He11. If the relationship holds good and is unalterable in one case it is in the other also.


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## Semi-Pro

I'm gonna need cliff notes on this one when y'all get it figured out.


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## bobocat

John 10:28-29
and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.

What is your understanding here?


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## bobocat

Eph 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

Here's another good one.


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## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Jer 1:5



Jer. 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Before I formed thee in the belly, meaning

The sense in which God forms men in the womb is by being the author of nature and the creator of the law of reproduction whereby all creatures and things in nature reproduce themselves. In a few special cases it seems that God has exercised a more particular control, as in the birth of Jeremiah, Josiah, and Cyrus (v 5; 1 Ki. 13:2; Isa. 44:28-45:1). but this does not mean all that are born.

I knew thee meaning 

I knew (Approved) you and sanctified you (Set you apart) [only some] and ordained (commissioned) you before you were born (v 5).

 before thou camest forth out of the womb meaning

6 Men Set Apart to God From Birth
 Samson Judg. 13:2-25.
 Samuel  1 Sam. 1:17-19, 27-28.
 Jermiah Jer. 1:5-10.
 John the Baptist Lk. 1:15-17.
 Jesus Christ Mt. 1:18-25.
 Paul Gal. 1:15, 16.

I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. meaning 

To sanctify here, as elsewhere, means to set apart from a profane to a sacred use. 
IT HAS NO REFERENCE TO CLEANSING FROM SIN, FOR JERMIAH DID NOT AND COULD NOT HAVE EXPERIENCED SALVATION FROM SIN AT THIS TIME (v 5).
This verse says nothing about that eternal life cannot be lost.


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## The Original Rooster

I don't know if eternal life can be lost or if once saved always saved, but I do know that a person following Christ will show it in their words and actions, and I don't mean that they'll be "Super Christian" with an S on their chest. Some of the best people and Christians I've ever known were imperfect, quiet people who led by example despite their imperfections and quietly showed up to help you when you needed it without fanfare.


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## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> Rom. 8;30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
> 
> Meaning, God has foreordained, determined, and predestinated that all men be called to Salvation, BUT THAT ONLY THE ONES WHO ACCEPT BECOME GENUINE CALLED ONES TO BE JUSTIFIED AND GLORIFIED.



You are out of order in an attempt to make room for yourself.

It is God who causes a man to accept. Not all men are caused to accept.



Banjo Picker said:


> None are glorified, BUT THOSE WHO ACCORDING TO HIS PURPOSE, MEET THE TERMS OF THE GOSPEL. Who THEY WILL BE is LEFT UP TO THE INDIVDUAL (Jn.3:16; 1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Rev. 22:17; Mk. 16:16; Acts 2:38; 3:19. All THINGS DEPEND UPON MEETING THE CONDITIONS OF THE GOSPEL Rom. 8:1-13, 8. This verse says nothing about that, eternal life cannot be lost.


The terms of the Gospel have been met for all those that are caused to accept.

The man who God saves by Himself, for Himself, is foreknown-predestinated-called-justified-glorified.

All of salvation is God's work. Those that He makes Himself known to... accept it... understand it... will praise His name for it... and not insert their own name.

"I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth _it_, that _men_ should fear before him."


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## Israel

My sheep hear my voice.


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## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Ya think it might be he ain't the devil's spawn?
> 
> 
> Being of the earth, earthy by natural birth makes a man carnal not a son of the devil. Oh, yes that one/some may be Jesus makes plain to certain ones "you are of your father the devil".
> 
> But all naturally born (under sin) are children of disobedience, yes...and in bondage to sin, yes. Outwardly...there may be no distinguishing mark, at all. In fact there isn't...outwardly.
> 
> "But the foundation of God stands sure, having this seal, the Lord knows those who are His"
> 
> Don't you find it the least bit interesting (if not consistent) to consider Paul's words about his own experience even if for no other reason he is so often found for other reference?
> 
> "When it pleased God to reveal His Son in me" holds nothing of a testimony of choice or Paul's own choosing of himself to be anything. Or even (especially?) any mention of choice to believe.
> 
> And frankly no man begins to appreciate the "how much" he has taken into his own hands for execution until such begins to be stripped away by revelation of just how presumptuous he has been _in all his ways. _The things of worthlessness into which he once placed stock.
> 
> No man is under obligation to "like" this work...except that the being stripped holds in itself another work...the revelation of how nakedly Jesus Christ walked among us as one plainly stating "of myself I can do nothing" but this means nothing much to us until this stripping brings us to that appreciation. Till then all we really can see is what appears valuable in, and of, our own doings.
> 
> But we are not set to matters of "vanilla or chocolate", but truly life and death issues as such will be set before us...not that God would trip us up...but that we would both know...and demonstrate, the Lord's glorious victory in them...to God's good pleasure and our salvation.[/QUOTE
> 
> And these are your words but still not no Scripture’s proving that eternal life cannot be lost.


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## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> My sheep hear my voice.



Yep they here it but that doesn’t mean they are going to Heaven, you think sinners don’t hear? As I said still no proof with Scripture’s cause there is none.


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## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> The man who God saves by Himself, for Himself, is foreknown-predestinated-called-justified-glorified.
> 
> All of salvation is God's work.



Then what your saying and believe that God foreknown-predestinated all men if so, then you also believe that he also foreknown-predestine babies, children, mothers fathers, and men and women to die and even some men and women even to He11.
I think not God loves everyone even sinners His word says He has no respectable persons.


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## Banjo Picker

_Thus, once a son of the devil always a son of the devil_ makes conversion impossible and the death of Christ of no effect, in fact not necessary at all. It nullifies the whole plan of redemption. Thus the strongest argument of the once-in-grace believer would destroy itself if it were true. Son there could be no such thing and of a man as_ once a son of God always a son of God,_ or _once in grace always in grace _for no man can ever establish claims of birthright in God or claim grace as a heritage.


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## Banjo Picker

"In the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2:17). Adam surely died; he fell from God's grace or favor; and he lost the eternal life he possessed and could have kept forever, if he had not sinned (Rom. 5:12-21).


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## Danuwoa

Somebody give me a TL DR version.


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## tell sackett

Banjo Picker said:


> No Scripture has yet been found that says he cannot lose eternal life and no one will ever be able to produce a Scripture that says such a thing, so it will take more than statements of men to prove this claim.


Post #13(conveniently ignored);post #14(conveniently ignored); John3:16,18,36; 1John5:13; Eph.1:13-14


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## tell sackett

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I see what you are saying. The first time you are save by God's grace & the blood of Jesus. If you fall back into sin, you are then saved by yourself the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th time.


Waiting......


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## Banjo Picker

bobocat said:


> John 10:28-29
> and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
> 
> What is your understanding here?



Jn. 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

And I give unto them eternal life meaning
Jn. 6:27.
  23 Conditions of eternal life
1. Come unto Christ (Jn. 6:37, 44, 45, 65)
2. Eat Hid flesh--drink His blood (Jn. 6:50, 51, 53, 58)
3. Labor (Jn. 6:27)
4. Reap (Jn. 4:35-38; 15:4-8)
5. Hate [love less] the life in this world (Jn. 12:25)
6. Know God and Christ (Jn. 17:2-3)
7. Enter right gate (Mt. 7:13, 14)
8. cause no offence (Mt. 18:8, 9)
9. Keep commandments (Mt. 19:17)
10. Forsake all (Mt. 19:27-29; Mk. 10:28-30; Lk. 18:28-30)
11. Live free from sin (Rom. 5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Titus 2:11-14)
12. Continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom. 2:7)
13. Sow to the Spirit (Gal. 6:7-8)
14. Fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim. 6:12, 19)
15. Be sober and hope to the end for it (Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1 Pet. 1:5, 9, 13 with Rom. 8:24)
16. Endure temptation (Jas. 1:12)
17. Let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn. 2:24, 25; 5:11-20; Jn. 15:4-6)
18. Love everybody (1 Jn. 3:14, 15)
19. Keep yourself in the love of God looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24)
20. Overcome sin (Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21) 14-15)
21Be faith unto death (Rev. 2:10; Heb. 12:14-15)
22. Believe and obey the gospel (Jn. 3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40, 47, 54; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 1:5)
23. Be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn. 3; 10:27-29)

and they shall never perish, meaning
why will they never perish? Because they meet the conditions from the above.

neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand meaning
Gr. arpazo, take force (Mt. 11:12; Jn. 6:15; Acts 23:10); catch (Jn. 10:12) catch away or up (Mt. 13:19; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor. 12:2-4; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 12:5); pull (Jude 23); and pluck (Jn. 10:28, 29).

Jn. 10:29 My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Meaning

The Father is greater than all the united forces of men, fallen angels, demons, and all enemies, so need to fear for being snatch out of God's hand [as long as one sins not against God] the only thing one must do is come to God and permit His Salvation and keeping power to be manifested. God cannot keep one contrary to His will any more then He kept Lucifer (Isa. 14:12-14; 1 Tim. 3:6), angels (2 PET. 2:4; Jude 6-7), Pre-Adamites (Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-8).

Jn. 10 30 I and my Father are one. Meaning
One in unity (Jn. 17:11, 21-23; ), not one in person or individuality (Dan. 7:9-14; 1 Jn. 5:7; Acts 7:55; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 8:6; 11:3; Eph. 1:20-23; 4:1-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 1:3; 8:1; 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22; Rev. 5:1-7).

A lot here telling you if you don't live up to it you will lose eternal life.


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## Banjo Picker

bobocat said:


> Eph 4:30
> And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
> 
> Here's another good one.



Eph. 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, meaning 
Grieve not by doing any of these forbidden things of 4:17-5:18.

whereby ye are seal unto the day of redemption meaning

sealed (1:13; 4:30)
1. For security (Mt. 27:66; Rev. 20:3)
2. To hide as the contents of a letter ( Rev. 10:4; 22:10;.Cp. Dt. 32:34)
3. To confirm or approve by testimony (Jn. 3:33; 6:27; Rom. 15:28)
4. To confirm ownership (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30; Rev. 7:3-8). The Holy Spirit of adoption is given to everyone who repents (Rom. 8:9, 14-16; 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13; 4:30) and he who HAS this SPIRIT has GOD'S seal that he belongs to the heavenly family, as long as he does not commit sin willfully.


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## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Were any man to presume to be "His" on the basis of "He's too nice to do that", or, "He surely wouldn't do that" ("according to my understanding of what goodness must appear as!") having to themselves a "nice" God...
> 
> As to the disposition of every created thing as might be described in this:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I do.
> 
> 
> I don't think you know how much is "given away" of a man's understanding when things such as this:
> 
> 
> 
> is said.


Guess you don't believe 2 Pet. 3:9 The lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. I believe this is saying not even babies, children, mothers and fathers, and men and women Here shows how much he loves them even sinners to die for them that they might have everlasting life Always have believed that's why Jesus Christ came and died for all, so none would have to go there believe your wrong about Predestine of them to go to He11, My God and Lord Jesus Christ and Holy Ghost are all loving!


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## tell sackett

Salvation is God’s business _*period. *_He does the saving and He does the keeping.


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## Banjo Picker

Moses said. " If thou wilt forgive their sin, and if not blot me I pray thee out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." (Ex 32:32, 33; Deut. 9:7-29; 11:13-25).


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## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> Then what your saying and believe that God foreknown-predestinated all men if so, then you also believe that he also foreknown-predestine babies, children, mothers fathers, and men and women to die and even some men and women even to He11.


Yes. He created He11 for that very purpose, for the reprobate spirits of men and angels.


Banjo Picker said:


> I think not God loves everyone even sinners His word says He has no respectable persons.


I am not sure what you are trying to convey here.


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## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> Yes. He created He11 for that very purpose, for the reprobate spirits of men and angels.
> 
> I am not sure what you are trying to convey here.


I guess not!


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## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> I guess not!


And I will not guess as to what you are trying to convey with "I think not God loves everyone even sinners His word says He has no respectable persons."

It's too discombobulated.


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## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> And I will not guess as to what you are trying to convey with "I think not God loves everyone even sinners His word says He has no respectable persons."
> 
> It's too discombobulated.


As I said, I think not, God loves everyone even sinners, His Word says He has no respectable persons, so he didn’t predestined you me or a lot of other’s that believe that He did a few men, but he didn’t ever one.


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## Banjo Picker

tell sackett said:


> Waiting......


If one sins the 2, time and 3, and 4, and 5 they still have to do there first works again every time, and that is repent for forgiveness to God and by the blood of Jesus Christ because they chose to sin and separated them self from them.


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## tell sackett

If it is of works it is no more grace. Christ died once for sin. He’s not dying again.


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## bobocat

Banjo Picker said:


> Jn. 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
> 
> And I give unto them eternal life meaning
> Jn. 6:27.
> 23 Conditions of eternal life
> 1. Come unto Christ (Jn. 6:37, 44, 45, 65)
> 2. Eat Hid flesh--drink His blood (Jn. 6:50, 51, 53, 58)
> 3. Labor (Jn. 6:27)
> 4. Reap (Jn. 4:35-38; 15:4-8)
> 5. Hate [love less] the life in this world (Jn. 12:25)
> 6. Know God and Christ (Jn. 17:2-3)
> 7. Enter right gate (Mt. 7:13, 14)
> 8. cause no offence (Mt. 18:8, 9)
> 9. Keep commandments (Mt. 19:17)
> 10. Forsake all (Mt. 19:27-29; Mk. 10:28-30; Lk. 18:28-30)
> 11. Live free from sin (Rom. 5:21; 6:16-23; 8:1-13; Titus 2:11-14)
> 12. Continue in well doing and seek eternal life (Rom. 2:7)
> 13. Sow to the Spirit (Gal. 6:7-8)
> 14. Fight the good fight of faith; lay hold on it (1 Tim. 6:12, 19)
> 15. Be sober and hope to the end for it (Titus 1:2; 3:7; 1 Pet. 1:5, 9, 13 with Rom. 8:24)
> 16. Endure temptation (Jas. 1:12)
> 17. Let the promise of it remain in you and continue in God and Christ (1 Jn. 2:24, 25; 5:11-20; Jn. 15:4-6)
> 18. Love everybody (1 Jn. 3:14, 15)
> 19. Keep yourself in the love of God looking for eternal life (Jude 20-24)
> 20. Overcome sin (Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 26; 3:5, 12, 21) 14-15)
> 21Be faith unto death (Rev. 2:10; Heb. 12:14-15)
> 22. Believe and obey the gospel (Jn. 3:15-19, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:40, 47, 54; 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 1:5)
> 23. Be born again, hear Christ, and follow Him (Jn. 3; 10:27-29)
> 
> and they shall never perish, meaning
> why will they never perish? Because they meet the conditions from the above.
> 
> neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand meaning
> Gr. arpazo, take force (Mt. 11:12; Jn. 6:15; Acts 23:10); catch (Jn. 10:12) catch away or up (Mt. 13:19; Acts 8:39; 2 Cor. 12:2-4; 1 Thess. 4:17; Rev. 12:5); pull (Jude 23); and pluck (Jn. 10:28, 29).
> 
> Jn. 10:29 My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. Meaning
> 
> The Father is greater than all the united forces of men, fallen angels, demons, and all enemies, so need to fear for being snatch out of God's hand [as long as one sins not against God] the only thing one must do is come to God and permit His Salvation and keeping power to be manifested. God cannot keep one contrary to His will any more then He kept Lucifer (Isa. 14:12-14; 1 Tim. 3:6), angels (2 PET. 2:4; Jude 6-7), Pre-Adamites (Jer. 4:23-26; 2 Pet. 3:5-8).
> 
> Jn. 10 30 I and my Father are one. Meaning
> One in unity (Jn. 17:11, 21-23; ), not one in person or individuality (Dan. 7:9-14; 1 Jn. 5:7; Acts 7:55; Rom. 8:34; 1 Cor. 8:6; 11:3; Eph. 1:20-23; 4:1-6; 1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 1:3; 8:1; 12:2; 1 Pet. 3:22; Rev. 5:1-7).
> 
> A lot here telling you if you don't live up to it you will lose eternal life.



So basically you believe Jesus initially saves but man must continue to save himself. So are we our own advocate or mediator? This would make salvation not a gift.  We need to remember that our righteousness is as filthy rags and that only by the blood we are saved, repenting, turning from sin and following Christ. And Lucifer never repented.   Love you brother but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


----------



## Madman

To argue that our salvation is only a past event, is to neglect many parts of Holy Scripture.  We see time again of salvation being shown as a past event, a present event, and a future event.

Jesus uses several analogies of remaining in him.   John 15 comes to mind.

We should be careful about believing “once saved, always saved” less we not run the race to the end.


----------



## Artfuldodger

bobocat said:


> So basically you believe Jesus initially saves but man must continue to save himself. So are we our own advocate or mediator? This would make salvation not a gift.  We need to remember that our righteousness is as filthy rags and that only by the blood we are saved, repenting, turning from sin and following Christ. And Lucifer never repented.   Love you brother but I guess we will have to agree to disagree.


How do you explain the separation of the sheep and goats by Jesus which appears to be by works? Especially as it pertains to our loving and helping others, visiting prisoners, clothing, feeding, etc.
It appears to be a separation based on our loving others than actual Law keeping but still based on works.

*Matthew 25:31-33* Comes to mind.


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## kmckinnie

The Original Rooster said:


> I don't know if eternal life can be lost or if once saved always saved, but I do know that a person following Christ will show it in their words and actions, and I don't mean that they'll be "Super Christian" with an S on their chest. Some of the best people and Christians I've ever known were imperfect, quiet people who led by example despite their imperfections and quietly showed up to help you when you needed it without fanfare.


Your words come from true knowledge of man. Even tho your voice echoed down the valley to the village..... it fell on def ears ?.


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## The Original Rooster

kmckinnie said:


> Your words come from true knowledge of man. Even tho your voice echoed down the valley to the village..... it fell on def ears ?.


I just feel that debating whether the gift of salvation can be lost is a pointless exercise. Just live your life the way Christ laid out how we should and don't worry about it. Knowing that you will fail at times to live as you should but also knowing that forgiveness is there for the asking and you will be blessed for doing it.


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> To argue that our salvation is only a past event, is to neglect many parts of Holy Scripture.  We see time again of salvation being shown as a past event, a present event, and a future event.
> 
> Jesus uses several analogies of remaining in him.   John 15 comes to mind.
> 
> We should be careful about believing “once saved, always saved” less we not run the race to the end.



If I am mistaken please feel free to correct, but I’m unaware that anyone has stated that salvation is only a past event? You are correct about three stages, if you will, of salvation. We are to run the race to the end, but where does the strength to run come from? 

My strength is made perfect in weakness. He has promised that He will complete the good work He has begun in me and He is faithful that promised ( even when as it all too often happens that I ain’t).


Artfuldodger said:


> How do you explain the separation of the sheep and goats by Jesus which appears to be by works? Especially as it pertains to our loving and helping others, visiting prisoners, clothing, feeding, etc.
> It appear to be a separation based on our loving others than actual Law keeping but still based on works.
> 
> *Matthew 25:31-33* Comes to mind.


I know this was asked of someone else, but if  I may:
The difference lies in working out one’s salvation as opposed to working for salvation. There is a vast chasm between being a follower of Christ and mere religion. The Lord rebuked the most religious people in the world numerous times but their eyes were blinded. Religious works without a relationship with Him is a whitewashed tomb.


----------



## brutally honest

The Original Rooster said:


> I just feel that debating whether the gift of salvation can be lost is a pointless exercise.



Internet discussion boards were created to be a pointless exercise.


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## j_seph

saved today, lost tomorrow, saved again the next day, lost again on the 4th day, Glad the God I serve does it once and doesn't make a mistake the first time.


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## Banjo Picker

"Defile not yourselves in ANY OF THESE THINGS (that I cast out the nations for) . . . ye shall not commit any of these abominations . . . whosoever shall commit any of these things shall be cut off" (Lev. 18:24-30).


----------



## Madman

The Original Rooster said:


> I just feel that debating whether the gift of salvation can be lost is a pointless exercise. Just live your life the way Christ laid out how we should and don't worry about it. Knowing that you will fail at times to live as you should but also knowing that forgiveness is there for the asking and you will be blessed for doing it.


But ain’t it a great way to waste time.


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## Madman

j_seph said:


> saved today, lost tomorrow, saved again the next day, lost again on the 4th day, Glad the God I serve does it once and doesn't make a mistake the first time.


It is always best to get it right the first time.


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## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> As I said, I think not, God loves everyone even sinners, His Word says He has no respectable persons, so he didn’t predestined you me or a lot of other’s that believe that He did a few men, but he didn’t ever one.


Thank you. That is helpful.


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## SemperFiDawg

Semi-Pro said:


> I'm gonna need cliff notes on this one when y'all get it figured out.



This ain't but about the fiffy-eleventh time this subject has been discussed.  As usual it results in more heat than light.


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## tell sackett

Semi-Pro said:


> I'm gonna need cliff notes on this one when y'all get it figured out.


God made it really simple for us. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. He will do what He has promised.

 Then we come along.


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## j_seph

tell sackett said:


> God made it really simple for us. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved. He will do what He has promised.
> 
> Then we come along.


Don't forget profession


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## Artfuldodger

What does it mean to "work out your own salvation?" Paul said it in relation to "just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence."

I guess maybe Paul thought that after he left, they might not "obey?"


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> What does it mean to "work out your own salvation?" Paul said it in relation to "just as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence."
> 
> I guess maybe Paul thought that after he left, they might not "obey?"



Sanctification

13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for _His_ good pleasure.


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## Banjo Picker

In ever place where there is a father and a son, there is a household (Eph. 2:19-22). In God's household Christ is a "son" and also in that "house are we, IF WE HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope FIRM UNTO THE END (Heb. 3:6, 12-14). We do have to stay in God's house any more than we would be forced to stay in any home into which we had been adopted after we became of age. There are, however, conditions we have to meet to stay in God's house just as there are rules with which we must conform in order to stay in any home into which we have been adopted. These conditions would naturally be that one must be obedient and submissive to the head of the house.
There is, therefore, no such thing as being once a spiritual son always a spiritual son unless one remains spiritual and in Christ. One can lose spiritual sonship with the devil and become a spiritual son of God and one can likewise lose spiritual sonship with God and become again a spiritual son of the devil and be lost in eternal He11. 
 Backsliders can be renewed again. There is also no such thing _as once in grace always in grace_ unless one stays in grace by obedience to the gospel.

"If ye shall not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments . . . ye break my covenant: I also will do this to you . . . ye shall perish" (Lev. 26:13-39). Many times God said Israel would perish if she sinned. (Deut. 8:19, 20; 11:26-28; 15:4-6; 28:21-22; 30:15-20).


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## Banjo Picker

Eternal life is given to man when he gets into Christ, and it is his as long as he remains in Christ. He loses it when he is cut off from Christ. Since God has said that man will lose eternal life when he sins, and since He has made abundant provision for man that he does not have to sin, then if he sins God is obligated to cut man off from eternal life to remain true to His Word. God is not to blame. He has not failed. Christ has been all sufficient even through man fails and sins and is finally lost. It is not that the failure is in God or Christ, but it is in the man who does not have to sin but who chooses to sin and incur the penalty of the broken law. To lay the blame upon God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, or upon God's plan, power, purpose, attitude, and will, as being faulty is the height of ignorance. The blame is entirely upon man who fails to let God keep him from sin and who choses sin and earthly pleasures in preference to God or he would not have repudiated God. God has said that sin separates and kills and this will happen in every case or God is untrue Isa. 59:2; Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 8:12, 13. This will automatically explain Rom. 8:35-39; Jn. 10:27-29 and all other passages men misinterpret in teaching unconditional security. Paul did not say in Rom. 8:35-39 that sin would not separate from God, but both God and Paul did say elsewhere that sin would, so let us be sensible about the question Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:12-15; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7, 8.


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## Banjo Picker

KEEP the commandments . . . your eyes have seen what the Lord did BECAUSE of Baal-peor . . . God destroyed them from among you (24,000 once born again men were killed for adultery in one day--Num. 25:1-8) . . . But ye that did cleave unto the Lord are alive every one of you this day" Deut. 4:1-4.


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## Banjo Picker

TAKE HEED unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the Lord . . . God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God . . . when thou shalt beget children . . . remain long in the land, and corrupt yourselves . . . do evil in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger . . . ye shall utterly perish . . . be utterly destroyed Deut. 4:23-31.


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## Banjo Picker

"WHEN God shall give you great and goodly cities, and houses full of good things . . . When thou shalt have eaten and be full; THEN beware lest thou forget the Lord . . . Ye shall not go after other Gods . . . lest the anger of the Lord be kindled against thee and destroy thee from off the earth. Ye shall not tempt the Lord . . . do that which is right and good in the sight of the Lord; that it may be well with thee" Deut. 6:10-19.


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## Banjo Picker

"All the commandments . . . shall ye observe and do, that ye may live" Deut. 8:1-6.


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## Banjo Picker

"If thou  shalt. . . do all his commandments . . . all these blessings shall come upon you (21 different blessings, Deut. 29:1-14). But it shall come to pass If thou wilt not . . . observe to do all his commandments . . . that all these curses (122 curses, Deut. 28:15-68) shall come upon you thee . . . till thou be destroyed; BECAUSE ye did not keep the commandments . . . BECAUSE thou servedst not the Lord . . . until thou be destroyed . . . as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to naught; and ye shall be PLUCKED from off the land Deut. 28:1-68.


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## Banjo Picker

"If thou do at all forget the Lord, walk after other gods, and serve them . . . I testify against you this day that ye shall utterly perish BECAUSE ye would not be obedient " Duet. 8:19, 20.


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## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> "If thou do at all forget the Lord, walk after other gods, and serve them . . . I testify against you this day that ye shall utterly perish BECAUSE ye would not be obedient " Duet. 8:19, 20.


Here is another group that did that;
Romans 1:21
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
This group in Romans 1 exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Psalm 106:20
They exchanged their glorious God for an image of a bull, which eats grass.

"my people have exchanged their glorious God for worthless idols!"

Again is this thing concerning scripture that I run across. I always wonder it the passages are concerning a nations salvation or punishment vs passages about individuals. Then is the passage concerning a nation physical or spiritual?
I think all of the passages above I posted concern physical Israel. Romans 11 addresses this as such.

There are other passages concerning a group or nation that "knew" God, yet abandoned that worship of God for that of idols. Maybe that group is always Israel, spiritual or physical. Maybe their savior will come from Zion and save all of them. Is it salvation from physical destruction or spiritual destruction? Maybe both?

Maybe one or a nation can only loose physical salvation but not eternal salvation.


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## Banjo Picker

God said that any man who turns his heart away from Him and says, "I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst (go head-long into sin): the Lord will not spare him . . . then the anger of the Lord and his jealously shall smoke against that man, and the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven Deut. 29:18-28.


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## Banjo Picker

"The Lord said to Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this [born again] people will rise up, and go a whoring after other gods . . . and will forsake me, and break my covenant . . . THEN my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured" Deut. 29:18-28.


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## Liberty in Christ

Once a son, always a son.


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## Banjo Picker

"IF ye do in any wise go back . . . THEN shall the anger of the Lord be kindled against you, and ye shall perish quickly" (Josh. 23:12-16).


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## Banjo Picker

The anger of the Lord was kindled against the children of Israel . . . The Lord said, Israel hath sinned . . . neither will I be with you anymore, except ye destroy the accursed from among you" Josh. 7:1, 10-12.


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## Banjo Picker

"If ye forget my commandments . . . then I will PLUCK them up by the roots" 2 Chron. 7:19, 20; "if they will not obey, I will utterly PLUCK up and destroy" Jer. 12:14-17; 18:7-17; 22:24-26; 31:28-30; 45:4; Ezek. 17:9. In the N. T. we learn that God will not pluck up the one who HEARS the voice of Christ and FOLLOWS Him." Jn. 10:27-29.


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## Banjo Picker

_"When a righteous man (Jew or Gentile, under law or under grace) doeth turn from righteousness,_ and commit iniquity . . . HE SHALL DIE . . . Nevertheless if thy warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live . . . when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness and committeth iniquity . . . All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them SHALL HE DIE . . . for his iniquity that he hath done SHALL HE DIE" Ezek. 3:20, 21; 18:24-32.


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## Banjo Picker

"The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him _in the day of his transgression:_ as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby _in the day that he turneth from his wickedness,_ NEITHER SHALL THE RIGHTEOUS BE ABLE TO LIVE for his righteousness _in the day that he sinneth . . ._ HE SHALL DIE FOR IT . . . When the righteous turneth FROM HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, and committeth iniquty, HE SHALL EVEN DIE THEREBY" Ezek. 33:12-20. Such simple language does not need interpretation. these passages are God's own words and they prove a righteous man dies again when he sins and he will be lost if he dies in his sins.


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## Banjo Picker

_"Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book"_

Exod. 32:30-35. God said this and He means it. Again we read, "Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous" Ps. 69:28. This is a prophecy of Judas, as proved by a comparison of Acts 1:20 and Psalms 69:25-29. In Revelation we read, "He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; I will not blot out his name out of the book of life" Rev. 3:5. This passage teaches that if men did not overcome their names would be blotted out.


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## Banjo Picker

"Not every one that saith, Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven" Matt. 7:21. If one ceases to do the will of God he loses eternal life and will not enter the kingdom of God unless he comes back to repentence and godliness again.


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## Banjo Picker

"He that endureth to the end shall be saved" Matt. 10:22. It is possible not to endure to the end, or this Scripture is meaningless.


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## gemcgrew

"It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

God is never disappointed... when one does not endure to the end.  

This matter was settled with Christ, before there ever was a piece of dirt.


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## Madman

Tough to reason with a Calvinist.


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## Banjo Picker

"Because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold" Matt. 24:12. When love waxes cold one has lost Christ and eternal life and will be spued out Rev. 2:4, 5; 3:15, 16. One who has lost love has lost God and if one has lost God he has lost grace as stated in 1 Jn. 4:8, 12, 16, 21; Gal. 1:6-8; 5:4; Heb. 12:15.


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## gemcgrew

Madman said:


> Tough to reason with a Calvinist.


That has never stopped me from trying.


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## Banjo Picker

"When ye (disciples) stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against  any . . . but if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses" Mk. 11:25, 26; Matt.18:21-35. Even this then, will cut off eternal life.


----------



## common man

Something I would like everyone to consider. Whether you believe all believers will endure to the end or salvation can be lost? What was accomplished when Christ died and raised from the dead. Was this a potentail salvation? Or was this a concrete conquering of sin by our Lord Jesus Christ. Did Christ pay for actual sins?  Did he pay for sins that were never activated by the disbelief of the unbeliever? So you would have people on earth who Christ died for their sins and they still go to ****. That just doesn't work. No one gets sent to **** who wanted into heaven. Everyone is going to **** and loving the trip. That is the starting point. Everyone rejects Christ and it is only for his grace that we seek him. And then he keeps us.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"If any man defile the temple of God (the body) him shall God destroy" 1 Cor. 3:16, 17; 6:19, 20; Heb. 12:15. Regarding things that defile we read: "Out of the heart of men, procced evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, thefts, covetousness, deceit, lasciciousness, a  evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. All these things come from within, and defile the man" Mk. 7:21-23.


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## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "When ye (disciples) stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against  any . . . but if you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive your trespasses" Mk. 11:25, 26; Matt.18:21-35. Even this then, will cut off eternal life.


A warning doesn't indicate that it has ever occurred a single time.


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## Madman

But a warning indicates it can happen.


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## gemcgrew

Or that it can't happen, because the failure would be the Advocate's.


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## Madman

That is an interesting way to view the teaching.  Typical


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## formula1

Salvation belongs to the Lord.  No man can give it or take it away. Christ made full payment! And His payment is enough! And if it is not, you are still dead in your sins!

If Christ has the power to save you, He has the power to keep you, unless you don’t believe Him.

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,[a] is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 30 I and the Father are one.

Philippians 1:6 And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.


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## NE GA Pappy

eternal life can't be lost

You will live somewhere for eternity

You need to make sure it isn't a place where God doesn't reside


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## gordon 2

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

When I read this I understand as follows: But as many as receive him, even to them that believe on on his name, to them gave he power to become sons of God.

If my reading is correct, the power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, is it independent of the believer or do them that believe have to exercise this power?


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## gordon 2

Israel said:


> That's a very good question. Could lead to other matters about power.



Are we cautioned by the writers in the Acts of the Apostles that our faith must be tempered, even after  the death and resurrection of our Savior? If the death and resurrection was everything to our salvation for we believe why would we still need encouragements, rebukes, reminder, directive and continued need of pastors-- or the Church itself?

Regards power. Why does Jesus rebuke the congregations in Revelations as if the congregations have the power to spiritually influence outcomes? Why would  James  deem it needful to point out to the saints what is a wholesome faith, the problem of sin, the manner to pray and how to live in general--if the cross and the resurrection were sufficient to salvation?


----------



## tell sackett

gordon 2 said:


> John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
> 
> When I read this I understand as follows: But as many as receive him, even to them that believe on on his name, to them gave he power to become sons of God.
> 
> If my reading is correct, the power to become sons of God, even to them that believe on his name, is it independent of the believer or do them that believe have to exercise this power?



“Power” as it as translated in that verse is “privilege” or “legal right”.


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## SemperFiDawg

All this back and forth over if salvation can be lost.  Is there anyone that would disagree with the statement that regardless of what one "believes", a sensible person would be best served to live like salvation CAN be lost?  If that's the case, what's the point outside of pride, of debating the subject?  I just don't get the point of the debate at all.


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## Banjo Picker

They here, receive the word with joy . . . which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away Lk. 8:13.


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## gemcgrew

SemperFiDawg said:


> Is there anyone that would disagree with the statement that regardless of what one "believes", a sensible person would be best served to live like salvation CAN be lost?


I would disagree.

Have not men done the sensible thing, only to be told "Depart from Me"?

If a man does something that serves him best, is he a lover of self?


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## Banjo Picker

"The Lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him . . . and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers" Lk. 12:46; Rev. 21:8; 22:15.


----------



## tell sackett

SemperFiDawg said:


> All this back and forth over if salvation can be lost.  Is there anyone that would disagree with the statement that regardless of what one "believes", a sensible person would be best served to live like salvation CAN be lost?  If that's the case, what's the point outside of pride, of debating the subject?  I just don't get the point of the debate at all.



Yes, I would disagree.
It strikes at the heart of who is the author of salvation.


----------



## SemperFiDawg

tell sackett said:


> Yes, I would disagree.
> It strikes at the heart of who is the author of salvation.



Trust me.  Whoever is right in this debate, if anyone is, it has no bearing what-so-ever on who Christ is.


----------



## gordon 2

tell sackett said:


> Yes, I would disagree.
> It strikes at the heart of who is the author of salvation.




Yes it seems that who the author of salvation is, that is the nature of the author, is all over the place in the 34000 denominations since the reformation. Specifically there is a curve to evey definition from sovereignty to salvation, choice vs determinism or simply how and when on might be saved.

As long a God will be the god of the bible and the god of the bible is different dependent on what flavor of Christianity one looks into to find Christ... then who the author of salvation is will be varied like seed variety and we are much worse  for His works and words for so many personalities we give God.


----------



## tell sackett

SemperFiDawg said:


> Trust me.  Whoever is right in this debate, if anyone is, it has no bearing what-so-ever on who Christ is.



I don’t mean to sound sacrilegious, but if He is not the Christ He said He is(the way, plus nothing; the Christ of all authority who has the power to keep us) then what kind of christ is he?


----------



## tell sackett

gordon 2 said:


> Yes it seems that who the author of salvation is, that is the nature of the author, is all over the place in the 34000 denominations since the reformation. Specifically there is a curve to evey definition from sovereignty to salvation, choice vs determinism or simply how and when on might be saved.
> 
> As long a God will be the god of the bible and the god of the bible is different dependent on what flavor of Christianity one looks into to find Christ... then who the author of salvation is will be varied like seed variety and we are much worse  for His works and words for so many personalities we give God.



What 34,000 denominations say is of no importance to me


----------



## Banjo Picker

"From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him (Jn. 6:66).


----------



## SemperFiDawg

tell sackett said:


> Yes, I would disagree.
> It strikes at the heart of who is the author of salvation.



So let me back up and get this straight.  You disagree with this,



> regardless of what one "believes", a sensible person would be best served to live like salvation CAN be lost?/QUOTE]?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

tell sackett said:


> I don’t mean to sound sacrilegious, but if He is not the Christ He said He is(the way, plus nothing; the Christ of all authority who has the power to keep us) then what kind of christ is he?



Let me state this in a better way, or at least try.  From my experience, and my experience only, it's not Christ's ability to keep me that should concern me, but my ability to keep him.


----------



## tell sackett

SemperFiDawg said:


> So let me back up and get this straight.  You disagree with this,


Yessir


----------



## tell sackett

SemperFiDawg said:


> Let me state this in a better way, or at least try.  From my experience, and my experience only, it's not Christ's ability to keep me that should concern me, but my ability to keep him.


I don’t have the power to keep Him, that’s why He keeps me. Ain’t love grand?


----------



## tell sackett

I will add that does not in any way, shape, form, or fashion release me of my calling to live in obedience to His commands.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed" Jn. 8:31. If you do not continue, the opposite is true: you are not His disciples and do not have eternal life.


----------



## gordon 2

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

17:24 Father, I want those You have given Me to be with Me where I am, that they may see the glory You gave Me because You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 Righteous Father, although the world has not known You, I know You, and they know that You sent Me. 26And I have made Your name known to them and will continue to make it known, so that the love You have for Me may be in them, and I in them.”…

It looks like the Father was a loving God from the get go according to Jesus as per John? Do you think that knowing that the Father is loving before the foundation of the world is important regards eternal life?


15 I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.…

Why would Jesus pray that the Father keep individuals and groups "not of the world" and I assume individuals and groups with eternal life  (on account of their knowledge of a loving God) from the evil one?

In his prayer Jesus says,20 " I am not asking on behalf of them alone, but also on behalf of those who will believe in Me through their message,… "  The prayer is directed to the people of his earthy ministry but also to those who would be no longer of the world due the cross also?

Why do we still need this prayer today? If we do?


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> Because Jesus never said anything we do not need, or conversely...all of Jesus' words are spirit and life.
> 
> And that word saves us.




Does it? I had understood that our salvation was due the cross? So this prayer saves us even after the cross? I read it that even that some know God and have eternal life are yet prey to evil or even after having eternal life believers are subject to evil. For example: Judas. Jesus says that Judas one of the apostles was given him by the Father but was lost in the end.

"While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled."

Psalm 41:*7*All that hate me whisper together against me: against me do they devise my hurt.

*8*An evil disease, _say they_, cleaveth fast unto him: and _now_ that he lieth he shall rise up no more.

*9*Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up _his_ heel against me.

There can be no more as Judas? If this is the case then why all the debates of disagreements and factions, the bonfires, the shunning,  the culture of the church hopper and excommunications?


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not forever (does not have eternal life). but the Son (who does not commit sin) abideth forever (has eternal life). If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" Jn. 8:34-36.


----------



## tell sackett

Banjo Picker said:


> "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not forever (does not have eternal life). but the Son (who does not commit sin) abideth forever (has eternal life). If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" Jn. 8:34-36.



Commits is the same word that’s translated continue. This is habitual sin. 

If *we* say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If *we* say that we have not sinned, we make *Him* a liar, and His word is not in us


----------



## Banjo Picker

"If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" Jn. 8:31; 14:15, 21-24; 15:9-14. If one does not keep His saying, the result of course, will be death.


----------



## tell sackett

Banjo Picker said:


> "If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death" Jn. 8:31; 14:15, 21-24; 15:9-14. If one does not keep His saying, the result of course, will be death.



I deserved death and was under it's sentence, but wonder of wonders He gave me life. If keeping the Lord's commands without failure is the standard then none will see life. We are all imperfect vessels.
He that is bathed need not to wash except his feet.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME: And I give unto them (that follow me) eternal life; and they (that follow me) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them (that follow me) out of my hands. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them (that follow me) out of my Father's hand" Jn. 10:27-29. This gives eternal security and eternal life to all who follow Christ and nothing to them that do not follow Him and do not hear His voice, that is, obey it, and heed what He says. To claim the benefits promised means nothing if we do not literally and daily hear His voice and follow Him Note that the passage simply states that no "man" that is that no other human can pluck a person out of the hand of God. But if a person sins, God Himself has the right and can pluck and truly does pluck such a sinning person out of His own hand, for He is Holy and cannot tolerate sin. As seen also in post # 75


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they FOLLOW ME: And I give unto them (that follow me) eternal life; and they (that follow me) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them (that follow me) out of my hands. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them (that follow me) out of my Father's hand" Jn. 10:27-29.


That looks like fun, let me try it...

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them (my sheep), and they (my sheep) FOLLOW ME: And I give unto them (my sheep) eternal life; and they (my sheep) shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them (my sheep) out of my hands. My Father which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them (my sheep) out of my Father's hand" Jn. 10:27-29.


----------



## formula1

We probably should not try to alter the intent of Gods word to fit a viewpoint.  Better to just trust what he says!

God sent His son to pay for sin. Is His payment not enough?

Oh, it is more than enough!  Just come to our advocate!

1 John 2 
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.


----------



## formula1

1 John 1
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"I Marvel that ye are so soon REMOVED FROM Him (Christ) that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel" Gal. 1:6, 7.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> But if a person sins, God Himself has the right and can pluck and truly does pluck such a sinning person out of His own hand, for He is Holy and cannot tolerate sin. As seen also in post # 75


I have no recollection of a single moment in time, while awake or asleep, when I am not sinning.

But God sees no sin in His people. Scripture tells us that this is not for our sake, but for His own sake.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> I have no recollection of a single moment in time, while awake or asleep, when I am not sinning.
> 
> But God sees no sin in His people. Scripture tells us that this is not for our sake, but for His own sake.




1.What scripture do you use for this understanding you have that God sees no sin in his people? Do you mean seeing no sin to condemn? and now to chastise only?

2, Do you understand that God did not see sin in Israel, or the Jews so to condemn them to destruction? That they are not condemned but chastised instead especially and only due to being His people and such is the similar case with Christians as is the case with Jews, but no others. ( Paul the Jew and Paul the Christian are one and the same as to condemnation and chastisement.)

3. Do you understand that Jews and Christians are set apart where they are chastised for their sins only as opposed to be destined to perish completely ( condemned) as it is per others groups and individuals yet understood to be in or of the world?

4. ( Make up you own questions here if you so desire.)

5. Does being justified as a Christian give you spiritual exemption as per a clearer conscience and less need of remorse for moral failings ? as opposed to other faith groups who are still of the world? There are less spiritual consequences for moral failings if one is Christian? Moral failings do no injure the relationship God has with Christians no more than moral failings injured _Caiaphas and his kind._


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I have no recollection of a single moment in time, while awake or asleep, when I am not sinning.
> 
> But God sees no sin in His people. Scripture tells us that this is not for our sake, but for His own sake.


I don't think a lot of individuals understand exactly how much sin they commit on a daily basis. Pride, hate, anger, lust, jealousy, selfishness, not forgiving others, etc. happens daily.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think a lot of individuals understand exactly how much sin they commit on a daily basis. Pride, hate, anger, lust, jealousy, selfishness, not forgiving others, etc. happens daily.


Whatever is not of faith is sin,
whatever is not of trusting Christ in the moment. No, it's not about trusting for a certain outcome, but the simple focus-trust of Father, the knowledge He's with you, and His love covers a multiple of "not of faith" responses.  We'd be daft to say those non-faith times do not happen. Gosh, check your thought life in just the last hour!
It goes back to the Life being relational - every moment of it, because Christ lives in the home of our hearts,
and even when we are (often) faith-less, He remains faithful ... since He cannot deny Himself. In other words a lack, or loss of faith doesn't derail His intimacy with us.  It might feel that way, but union life is a reality in every storm. Even when faithless disciples cry in unbelief at the crashing waves in the boat.


----------



## tell sackett

gordon 2 said:


> 1.What scripture do you use for this understanding you have that God sees no sin in his people? Do you mean seeing no sin to condemn? and now to chastise only?
> 
> 2, Do you understand that God did not see sin in Israel, or the Jews so to condemn them to destruction? That they are not condemned but chastised instead especially and only due to being His people and such is the similar case with Christians as is the case with Jews, but no others. ( Paul the Jew and Paul the Christian are one and the same as to condemnation and chastisement.)
> 
> 3. Do you understand that Jews and Christians are set apart where they are chastised for their sins only as opposed to be destined to perish completely ( condemned) as it is per others groups and individuals yet understood to be in or of the world?
> 
> 4. ( Make up you own questions here if you so desire.)
> 
> 5. Does being justified as a Christian give you spiritual exemption as per a clearer conscience and less need of remorse for moral failings ? as opposed to other faith groups who are still of the world? There are less spiritual consequences for moral failings if one is Christian? Moral failings do no injure the relationship God has with Christians no more than moral failings injured _Caiaphas and his kind._



1-3) Romans8:1
5) Hebrews12:3-11


----------



## tell sackett

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think a lot of individuals understand exactly how much sin they commit on a daily basis. Pride, hate, anger, lust, jealousy, selfishness, not forgiving others, etc. happens daily.



Sins of omission


----------



## gordon 2

tell sackett said:


> 1-3) Romans8:1
> 5) Hebrews12:3-11




A.  Romans 8:13...but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.


"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."

----------------

B.3" Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."

It is possible to loose heart?   If ever there was a verse in favor of the possibility of loosing one's faith, or eternal life, this is it.

The remedy not to lose heart seems to be fellowship if I understand this correctly. Fellowship itself and not bible study alone for theological doctrine.

In both these verses the believer has to do something ( participation) in the scheme of salvation.

A)  you put to death the misdeeds of the body

B) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles."


----------



## tell sackett

gordon 2 said:


> A.  Romans 8:13...but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
> 
> 
> "For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
> 
> I believe Paul here is writing of habitual behavior. He writes in the previous chapter of his own struggles. If sinless perfection here on earth is the standard for heaven then there will be only one human there. Keep reading the following verses.
> ----------------
> 
> B.3" Consider him who endured such opposition from sinners, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart."
> 
> It is possible to loose heart?   If ever there was a verse in favor of the possibility of loosing one's faith, or eternal life, this is it.
> 
> To loose heart(more literally be discouraged) is not losing salvation. Again in Ro.7 Paul calls himself wretched(wretched through the exhaustion of hard labor)
> 
> The remedy not to lose heart seems to be fellowship if I understand this correctly. Fellowship itself and not bible study alone for theological doctrine.
> 
> In both these verses the believer has to do something ( participation) in the scheme of salvation.
> We are called to work out our salvation, never to work for it. We live what we have been given.
> 
> A)  you put to death the misdeeds of the body
> 
> B) "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles."


----------



## gordon 2

To loose heart especially with God in the Christian context seems to me to be concerned a bit more than discouragement. The heart spoken of has specific context in the will and grace of God. In fact I know of many who have lost heart and no longer believe or wish to live in any sort of way in an eternal life context. They have deemed it unbelievable now even some who previously had claimed personal witness of the Holy Spirit. And this I find especially strange.

Now I know that it is a feature of Christians to take it as a given that God alone is the author of salvation. But in fact between the atonement and the individual group or person, two must tango. When an individual is witness to signs following they have a work to do...to discount it or to embrace. One's first love can wane after the embrace... and lamps removed I think.


----------



## tell sackett

gordon 2 said:


> To loose heart especially with God in the Christian context seems to me to be concerned a bit more than discouragement. The heart spoken of has specific context in the will and grace of God. In fact I know of many who have lost heart and no longer believe or wish to live in any sort of way in an eternal life context. They have deemed it unbelievable now even some who previously had claimed personal witness of the Holy Spirit. And this I find especially strange.
> Lu. 13:24-27
> All of the bridesmaids had lamps, but some had no oil.
> 
> Now I know that it is a feature of Christians to take it as a given that God alone is the author of salvation. But in fact between the atonement and the individual group or person, two must tango. When an individual is witness to signs following they have a work to do...to discount it or to embrace. One's first love can wane after the embrace... and lamps removed I think.



Yes we have a work to do, after we are born again. Eph.2:8-10. If we have to “help out” the Savior, is He really a savior?
I’m afraid we must agree to disagree(agreeably?)


----------



## Banjo Picker

"If I build again the things which I destroyed (gave up for Christ), I make myself a transgressor," that is, I will revert back to the old life of sin and be lost again (Gal. 2:18).


----------



## tell sackett

In a word: nope


----------



## Banjo Picker

"My little children of whom I travail in birth AGAIN (as I did once before) until Christ be formed in you" (Gal. 4:19).


----------



## formula1

When will we learn that our accuser has been thrown down?

Revelation 12
10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.

And when will we learn that He gave each one of us limitless power to overcome?

Revelation 12
11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

We ought to recognize who we are in Christ unless we just cannot see beyond who we were!  Either in Him we are complete or we are not!  The old must become new!

We are brand new and He is the author and finisher we can trust to accomplish it!

I trust Him!


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "My little children of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you" (Gal. 4:19).


Can we see Paul's frustration here?

I can relate.

But there is One who shall see the travail of His soul and shall be completely satisfied.


----------



## StriperAddict

Selah


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS . . . the end of those things [committing sins] IS DEATH . . . For the wages of sin IS DEATH" Rom. 6:16-23.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS . . . the end of those things [committing sins] IS DEATH . . . For the wages of sin IS DEATH" Rom. 6:16-23.


Let me try it...

"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS . . . the end of those things [yielding, obeying] IS DEATH . . . For the wages of sin IS DEATH" Rom. 6:16-23.

A man ought to repent from his dead works.


----------



## formula1

We are either a slave to sin(death) or a slave to righteousness(obedience to Christ).

‘Repenting’ is the transforming from death to righteousness.  Now is righteousness something we do?

Posted this earlier but it fits here:

John 8
34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slave to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.


----------



## gma1320

Jesus was tortured and hung in a cross to suffer for us, for all of our sin, past, present and future.  Once saved, always saved. Not a Christian that has ever walked the face of this earth is sinless, before or after salvation, and we won't reach full righteousness until we join Him in the sky. But because of God's grace and mercy, and because of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus we are are forgiven once saved, for we all fall short of the glory of God. However we were created to do more than be saved and sit in a pew on Sunday morning for an hour and wait for the return of Jesus. We are all called to walk this earth with the full power and authority of Jesus,  left to us by Jesus,  through the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Banjo Picker

It’s sad that people don’t even have a enough faith to believe that God or Christ or the Holy Ghost can keep them from willfully sinning.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> It’s sad that people don’t even have a enough faith to believe that God or Christ or the Holy Ghost can keep them from willfully sinning.


Or that a man can't believe this...

Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 

Or this...

Blessed _is_ the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.


----------



## tell sackett

It’s sad that some do not (or will not) believe that God will not (or cannot) keep His word.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> Or that a man can't believe this...
> 
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
> 
> Or this...
> 
> Blessed _is_ the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.



A) And yet although them that are born of God  and know that they cannot sin due his seed that remaineth in them, do sin! Those who know right from wrong due that they are born of God, having the heart of Christ in their hearts, still sin-- not willfully and willfully.

B) Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin...because the man knows he/she can and or has received satisfaction in forgiveness and forgetting of specific sin in their ongoing faith walk. They personally know their former sin(s) don't-does not exist  with spiritual consequence anymore just as the sin never was. They are indeed blessed! In this sense the means not to impute sin are ongoing and part of the walk in faith. The need for repentance and or seeking remedy from guilt are especially hi-lighted by the believer's relationship with God via our Lord Jesus Christ who's seed remaineth in us. Having received the remedy for sin in this life is indeed a blessing.

One can walk away from the faith by choosing not to repent--by returning to the ways of the world, by not addressing our problems with the lord, but blessed is the man/ woman whom the Lord will not impute sin for he/she knows they have done well  to repent and to seek and receive forgiveness from the Lord and so to return fully formed to eternal life which was once obscured by the shame of sin. They are indeed blessed!


----------



## gordon 2

tell sackett said:


> It’s sad that some do not (or will not) believe that God will not (or cannot) keep His word.


There is not always agreement as to the meaning of His word and so the way of His truth.

*“God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”*

*To believe in Him has become many things, some different, to many.*

*To my heart and mind sin continues to put a veil of shame between a believer and God, even after the cross. It did so with Adam and Eve at the first sin and continues with those even born of God and in Christ. When it does not cause shame in the believer they are with physical illness, or run in the chains of the world reasoning as the world does, or have been made foolish by trust in doctrinal error.*


----------



## Madman

Sometimes we are not able to see beyond our presuppositions. 

 We look to one verse here and try to attach another there, when we should be reading the entire book in context.
The salvific power of God is too immense to attempt a single verse definition.

Unfortunately Christians have been so interested in throwing stones, since the beginning, we have become blind and deaf to understanding.


----------



## gordon 2

Madman said:


> Sometimes we are not able to see beyond our presuppositions.
> 
> We look to one verse here and try to attach another there, when we should be reading the entire book in context.
> The salvific power of God is too immense to attempt a single verse definition.
> 
> Unfortunately Christians have been so interested in throwing stones, since the beginning, we have become blind and deaf to understanding.




Even in biblical context I can make error and so do others. I personally think the context of the heart of Christ is the best source to sound the context of most anything spiritual--provided it is gained from the supernatural. The context of my faith must be in the miraculous after which I proceed to scripture. Christ in me is not hammered to right proportions by context of scripture. The miraculous gift of his love to my heart was all sufficient. Love birthed love. And in that context, in that light... I live with God and his word is supernatural. God surpasses the logic accords we might make in the contexts we find...with love all by itself.


----------



## tell sackett

gordon 2 said:


> There is not always agreement as to the meaning of His word and so the way of His truth.
> 
> *“God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.”*
> 
> *To believe in Him has become many things, some different, to many.*
> 
> *To my heart and mind sin continues to put a veil of shame between a believer and God, even after the cross. It did so with Adam and Eve at the first sin and continues with those even born of God and in Christ. When it does not cause shame in the believer they are with physical illness, or run in the chains of the world reasoning as the world does, or have been made foolish by trust in doctrinal error.*



First things first: I am a sinner and will continue to be as long as I am in this fleshly body. That's the bad news. The good news is I am a redeemed sinner. Jesus Christ, by His sacrificial death purchased me out of the marketplace of sin. He paid all of my debt, I am no longer a slave to sin. He said "Tetelestai" and I believe what he has said (I committed myself to Him, I entrusted my soul to Him). That is the way that word is used in Jo.3:16.

Jesus also uses it in Jo.5:24. He unequivocally states there that those who believe on Him that sent Jesus has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but has passed from death to life(Rom.8:1). I read in 1Pe. that I have an incorruptible, undefiled inheritance that fades not and is reserved in heaven for me and that I am kept by the power of God. If I cannot trust Him to keep me, how can I possibly trust Him to save me? I am now in Christ and no power can remove me.

Back to the fact of my sin. gemcgrew quotes for us 1Jo.3:9, see also 5:18. What John is writing of is habitual sin. If God expects sinless perfection of us to remain saved, then apparently Jesus was wrong when He said "Tetelestai", was He not? His death would have been only partial payment. If believers do not sin why do we have this in 1Jo.also: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess(present tense) our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.


----------



## gordon 2

tell sackett said:


> First things first: I am a sinner and will continue to be as long as I am in this fleshly body. That's the bad news. The good news is I am a redeemed sinner. Jesus Christ, by His sacrificial death purchased me out of the marketplace of sin. He paid all of my debt, I am no longer a slave to sin. He said "Tetelestai" and I believe what he has said (I committed myself to Him, I entrusted my soul to Him). That is the way that word is used in Jo.3:16.
> 
> Jesus also uses it in Jo.5:24. He unequivocally states there that those who believe on Him that sent Jesus has everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but has passed from death to life(Rom.8:1). I read in 1Pe. that I have an incorruptible, undefiled inheritance that fades not and is reserved in heaven for me and that I am kept by the power of God. If I cannot trust Him to keep me, how can I possibly trust Him to save me? I am now in Christ and no power can remove me.
> 
> Back to the fact of my sin. gemcgrew quotes for us 1Jo.3:9, see also 5:18. What John is writing of is habitual sin. If God expects sinless perfection of us to remain saved, then apparently Jesus was wrong when He said "Tetelestai", was He not? His death would have been only partial payment. If believers do not sin why do we have this in 1Jo.also: If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess(present tense) our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.




I think we can agree on some things. Good points.


----------



## tell sackett

Israel said:


> It takes God for a man to even know he is a sinner.
> 
> And just as likewise it takes the work of God to let a man know he is forgiven



So very true
So very wonderful


----------



## tell sackett

Just in case anyone may be misconstruing my post#171 to be some kind of easy believeism, okey dokey to sin, you are badly mistaken. As I am more conformed to the likeness of my Father I am to have the same holy hatred of sin that He has. Do I sin? Yes, more than I want to, but I am called to strive against sin, to put on my armor and stand against it day, by day, by day. I love my Father and I want to do what He commands me to do in order that my life will be pleasing unto Him.


----------



## Madman

There is a lot of talk about “doing”, “pleasing”, etc.

Perhaps we should allow Christ to “transform” us.  Perhaps we should “surrender”.   “If it be your will….”.

That depends on one’s definition of various terms.


----------



## formula1

“I” redirected!

Psalm 121 
1 I lift up my eyes to the hills.
    From where does my help come?
2 My help comes from the Lord,
    who made heaven and earth.


----------



## gordon 2

God quality input will cause God quality output one would think. During Jesus' day a lot of folk confessed to the God of Abraham and were fond of Moses, yet their God quality output was said to be no so great. In fact we are told that despite their confessions they did not know the Father otherwise they would have known Jesus for who he is. " It is not sacrifice I want..."  was come by here pie in the sky--life lived in a rough neighborhood.

If in my case "I" understands that God so loved the world as to give his only son, then "I" can't fault God for poor quality input and must conclude that if my or my brother's output and understanding is a confusion something runs interference between God's input and my "I" and its output.

If there is something that makes "I" see contradiction in God's input when I know  in my heart their is no need of it to be, then perhaps my faith is lacking love for man. Maybe. In Christ God's love is much more than his command of mercy.


----------



## gordon 2

The faith that loves is the faith that lives. Possibly this faith, a loving faith is that which ministers salvation with Paul and Peter. It is not only a faith of belief, but it is a faith of living, of being.


"Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk."


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> Or that a man can't believe this...
> 
> Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
> 
> Or this...
> 
> Blessed _is_ the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.



"Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas. 1:13-16).


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Bless you for that.
> 
> I didn't know.
> Just how much I needed to be reminded.
> 
> 
> But then, I never do.
> 
> 
> I was forgetting by thinking I was _happy enough._



"Who concerning the truth have erred . . . and overthrow the faith of some" (2 Tim. 2:17-18).


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> It only makes sense to take ignorance as the gift it is when it is proffered.
> 
> It'd be foolish for a man to try and stand upon what he has done; anymore than it would be to find he's inviting _not only what he has not done_ for the judging...but even all the other things he conveniently forgets _he has done._
> 
> "I want this one to count...that...not so much."
> 
> Anyone else ever find God just ain't as stupid as we'd sometimes think we'd like Him to be?
> 
> Now, it's a bit late for me as I've found Paul too faithful _in his candor, _to me he's been shown a reliable witness...time and again. He got taken places...he went places. So much so he was ascribed insanity at times, at others finding himself in need of defending his apostleship.
> 
> But for what remains of magik and superstition it's imagined and it's very much magically assumed he'd have primo reservations and the red carpet treatment for every "christian" he'd visit today. Kinda like Jesus Christ.
> 
> But Paul knew when to see, and find, and take ignorance as a gift. And he also knew no one could foist this as gift to another...it had to be realized. But oh, when offered as in "Father forgive them they know not what they do" and that gift of mercy was forever linked to it in that plea...he took it.
> 
> 
> Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did _it_ ignorantly in unbelief.
> 
> And so much so he came to embrace it as relief from striving of all and any trying to explain the inexplicable to others...instead he just went about naked of everything except of what Christ had worked in him. Theory was gone.
> 
> And so much so he'd come to see a something...and say a something that...except a man come to occupy that spot, would surely appear as though so much of what he'd said before was...well...error. Or at least..._didn't square._
> 
> And he knew he couldn't get "anyone" there anymore than he'd gotten himself to it. But, he would, nevertheless, convinced Christ had worked this in him...publish it in all, and for all, recommendation.
> 
> This _is_ a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
> 
> But, in that acceptance he also came to understand, by sight of it...the very why of it.
> 
> Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
> 
> His choosing had all and only with a thing another desired...and desired to show.
> 
> Now a silly man would ask..."Then how bad do I have to be, or yet strive to be, to know this?"
> 
> "After all, can I outchief...Paul?"
> 
> I like that some of you are laughing.
> 
> There's patience in abundance for any others.
> 
> And we can all "keep going" but, only by the Lord's grace.
> 
> To quote him has no magic in it...it's all and only _the only real stuff_ a man might come to know.
> 
> "and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "It ain't so much that men don't wanna be saved to the uttermost, son. It's just that few men know how much they really do need to be. But then, ain't none of us used to bein' loved so well, and so much.
> 
> An' my prayer for you boy, is that you never get used to it to the point of taken it for granted. But only believin' it will keep you from that. An' for that you're gunna need all the help there is. It'll surprise you every time...how much you need, and how much is there."
> 
> St. Pugnatious



_"Whosoever committeth sin is of the devil," _not of God, regardless of past salvation (1 John. 3:8).


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> You ain't gonna find a feller what likes havin' his cake and eatin' it too, more'n me.
> 
> So's I got no accusation, jes reconnition o' when I believe I see it also bein' done.
> 
> Do you not see a conundrum?
> 
> The word for servant, doulos is alternately translated slave and servant...and for our intents it makes little difference.
> 
> The commiting of sin(s), though not reserved only to unbelievers, though you might contend (not sure, do you?) it gets one "unborn again" again seems here to be the/a sticking point.
> So, let's grant it does that. Just for the sake of seeing if there's a consistency to your thinking and writing.
> 
> A sin or sins, that can make a disciple into a spiritually "dead again" un-new creation/creature...delivers him back to that prior estate of being a slave to sin...in every way as much as the estate of an unbeliever. (I am not contending sin has no consequence)
> 
> Am I presuming too much of your contentions?
> 
> Slave. Blind. Bound. Both by sin, and to it.
> 
> How do you square previous contending for man as "free" moral agent then in his natural state? What is free about a slave? What is free about one who is blind to _choice of good_..if all and only "choice" is, and can only be among sin?
> 
> It is like being told "you can have whatever color you want, so long as it is blue", or contending a man in that situation...is free.
> 
> We all need an intervention...and a continual intervening, not so Jesus has something to do to keep Him busy, but in His exercise of His doing and being as inseparably consistent for His glory and our salvation (of necessity)...
> 
> "Who ever liveth to make intercession for us".
> 
> Jesus Christ is consistent.
> 
> An unspeakable gift...always.



"Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUNESS . . . the end of those things [committing sins] IS DEATH . . . for the wages of sin IS DEATH " (Rom. 6:16-23).


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> We can hold 2 attitudes at once (seeming paradox).
> In fact, if we do not because we cannot, we can hold neither of them.
> 
> It takes God for a man to even know he is a sinner.
> 
> And just as likewise it takes the work of God to let a man know he is forgiven.
> 
> Our attitude toward our _self_ is one thing...our attitude of God's mercy found in His self, is another.
> 
> God resolves all that we cannot.



"If we deny him, he also will deny us" (2 Tim. 2:12). This is a plain lie if God will not da-mn saved men should they sin and deny him.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Do you not hear yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> Is it to be taken then that God will?  Durn saved men?



I noticed you just copied and paste the last part not the whole reply and yes I know what I said and it was the truth


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas. 1:13-16).


Amen

Now what?


----------



## formula1

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Who’s power is guarding you and why?  You either trust Him to do what he says or not!  Your own power cannot guard you or save you!


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> OK. Here it is in whole.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The "This" of "This is a plain lie..." is the "If we deny him, he also will deny us" so that that "this" would be the plain lie:
> 
> 
> 
> saved men.
> 
> It is a lie if
> 
> ?
> 
> God will da'mn...saved men?
> 
> 
> Could it be saved men are the men _who already know_ they are condemned...under God's law? And are made able, through Christ to accept it? And being _made able _by and through the quickening faith of Christ (and by that faith...alone) are now the justified before God?
> 
> For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
> 
> 
> Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
> 
> One man "reckons" he can put God in his debt...God now owes him something by his own work. And he sees salvation (the reward) as something owed him.
> 
> Grace, however...helps a man...in every way...even be reconciled to all his own unGodliness.
> 
> By the work...entirely...of another done on his behalf...by and for another.
> 
> And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed _are_ the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
> 
> I testify that _while I look _for _my works_ to bear fruit...in _all frustration..._I find a gift extended.
> 
> A voice from Heaven.
> 
> I am often reminded, as I am so in need of reminding, of how little is apprehended of _just how criminal_ Jesus Christ..._appeared._
> 
> 
> _Seemed._
> 
> One might come to understand relationship...both in meaning and understanding. To be there must be understanding of "who is who" that unity might be shown real...and true. Only One is God.
> 
> How do we know? Many, many...rebukes.
> 
> And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See _thou do it_ not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
> 
> 
> I believe it is a good thing you are so devoted to the teaching of the gospel so that in the teaching of the gospel you may learn the gospel, (even as the apostles did) and we also with you.
> 
> 
> When a man loves the truth more than he loves the teaching of a thing he begins to see the delight of God in saving him.
> 
> 
> And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as _he did_ unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God? When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
> 
> 
> 
> This was after all had been told:
> 
> 
> And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
> 
> Is it any wonder the apostle, Peter, said this
> 
> Wherefore I will not be negligent to put you always in remembrance of these things, though ye know _them_, and be established in the present truth. Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting _you_ in remembrance; Knowing that shortly I must put off _this_ my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.
> 
> I am convinced Peter came to understand by remembrance that the difference between his denial and Judas' betrayal not only rested upon Jesus knowing, but Jesus' prayer for him that when he was turned he would strengthen the brethren. "Simon Simon, Satan has desired...But I have prayed for you..."
> 
> 
> For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
> 
> I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
> 
> 
> I don't know that there is one man that does not encounter this tension, what's news to me...is not news to Him. There's often a struggle found in men to be in the lead, it's in men to want to be ahead of themselves to prevent their own dismay, considering what dismay the "old" nature is heir to.
> 
> But the last shall be first.


Wrong not a lie it just takes only one sin to loose eternal life for you me and anyone else it just took one for Adam to loose it, and were not any better than him.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Who ever said Adam had eternal life?
> 
> Where'd you get that from?


Sad you don’t know that.


----------



## gordon 2

If the world does not walk by faith, then someone taken out of the world so as to walk ( operate) by faith is saved from the world. By faith they walk, they operate, they act, they are living by faith.

Now it is possible for someone living by faith, someone knowing the blessing that is to walk by faith, to stop living by faith. It is possible to preach love and have hate, impatience, and so being polite to harbor contempt for the world that God points out He loves. God loves goats...  is finely able to. Can you?

Lets take the figure of Lot's wife, a type, who was told to flee and not look back. We all know she did. Lot's wife is a type of the man of iniquity,  a type of the anti-Christ and a figure of Judas. Judas in turn is a figure of believers, of people who walk or are surrounded by the protection of the cloud of faith, who knowing better and for reasons much more than being tricked by be devil, by their own accord, perhaps by some anger they carry like a millstone around their necks and so they will look back to the world combining their walk again to the march of the world from which they were once removed of by grace through faith. Simply they sell out.

Having not denied everything in themselves, angry, tired perhaps  or because they can read people's faces so they see sin, anger, deceit ---evil spirits with their crushing press on people, it having become  too much to bare,  and so they look back and go back and arm themselves with the strides of the world or to its foods and drinks and surrender to its false comforts, knowing rightly they are false-- but nevertheless proceed.

Last night I was Judas to friends of mine and many times I was to them in regard as Lots wife, looking back knowing and yet knowing I could look forward in faith. I disguised my anger and my weariness with my friends troubles. I had my back to them in spirit and played at putting my best face forward.

And so I let a spirit overwhelm me because I let it and not looking to Christ, his faith and how he ministers to the world, I saw and became instead the angry old world that I saw and had run away from...and I bought into it...again.

No matter what I say today about being saved, giving my honest testimony of faith, last night I walked with Judas. Not everything in me belongs to Christ and I have to wonder if someday I might just walk away into the sunsets of the world--having seen enough, having lived enough and faith begone. And I think this is possible to get out of the faith, to divorce it, because it seems others have and have willed to remove themselves from it.


----------



## gemcgrew

gordon 2 said:


> Not everything in me belongs to Christ and I have to wonder if someday I might just walk away into the sunsets of the world--having seen enough, having lived enough and faith begone.


He has power over all flesh and all things consist by Him.

Even our thoughts to the contrary.


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> He has power over all flesh and all things consist by Him.
> 
> Even our thoughts to the contrary.


Yes, our wayward emotions and thoughts do not derail the consistency of Christ's power over us, or in us.   
2 Cor 5:17
Rom 6:22


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> This feigning of sadness is not merely a tiresome ruse I am a bit too familiar with myself, but rather manipulative in its intentions (also something I am too familiar with).
> 
> You are talking to a man steeped in passive aggression (anything else you care to know?)
> 
> Jesus Christ is just...aggressive.
> 
> Conquerors are.
> 
> 
> And it came to pass, when the time had come that He should be received up, He steadfastly set His face to go to Jerusalem



Gen. 2:15 And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
Gen. 2:16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying. Of every tree of the garden thou mayest eat:
Gen. 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it; for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. 
Adam had eternal life and would have lived forever if he had done what God had commanded him to do and sin would not have ever started, but instead he eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and brought forth dead.


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> Amen
> 
> Now what?



"If ye have respect of persons ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. For whosoever shall keep the whole law and offend in one point, he is guilty of all (Jas. 2:9-13). Can a saved man ever fail in one point? Then he is guilty of all and must confess or be lost.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam" (2 Pet. 2:15-18


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> Can a saved man ever fail in one point? Then he is guilty of all and must confess or be lost.


The free gift is of many offences unto justification.


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> There is no comparing.



Perhaps a simple comparison.

The first imperfect Adam.
The second perfect Adam.


----------



## StriperAddict

Madman said:


> Perhaps a simple comparison.
> 
> The first imperfect Adam.
> The second perfect Adam.


Amen, Perfect!

So also IN (the second) Adam shall all be MADE alive. 
1 Corinthians 15:21-23

Some: So Striper you couldn't just leave it there, you had to go and bring in "transformation" again! 

To which I reply, tho the outer man perishes the inner man is renewed (to the knowledge of Christ) day by day.


----------



## StriperAddict

Israel said:


> And yet...Adam was perfect to that thing for which he was created.
> 
> That Jesus Christ be glorified.


I've been envious of that "pre fall" Adam, walking with God in the cool of the day. 

Yet, the Christ in you, the hope of glory?  

Maybe on this side of what was redeemed by the second Adam was far better than the earthly walking Adam?

Perhaps. And perhaps for another discussion.


----------



## huntersluck

I am not going into the weeds on this OP but to say I disagree with the logic or illogic


----------



## gordon 2

StriperAddict said:


> I've been envious of that "pre fall" Adam, walking with God in the cool of the day.
> 
> Yet, the Christ in you, the hope of glory?
> 
> Maybe on this side of what was redeemed by the second Adam was far better than the earthly walking Adam?
> 
> Perhaps. And perhaps for another discussion.



Not another discussion at all... because the assumption is made that the first Adam could run away from his blessing which was by Grace and the Second cannot-- that the Grace blessing due Christ is different from the first. Same discussion with a different bucket of paint. When God created Adam it was good, but it could have been gooder. Now thru Christ Adam man is the goodest possible this side of heaven, the choice or the caution to glean even off the Tree of Good and Evil is gone with the new dispensation so much so it is not a choice to make anymore--  our arms just to short now. Once you are to the kingdom you can't jump out. Or this time you might make an apple crumble with the fruit off the tree of good and evil, but regardless...it don't matter...the law having been done away with...in this dispensation both good and evil serve Him towards all blessings. Both love and hate will bless this time around. Talking from both sides of the mouth, this time, is ok-- Christ is good for this.


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> The free gift is of many offences unto justification.



In Ephesians, Paul teaches that men are dead in sins when living in them, and salvation quickens them and makes them alive unto God. If ever men go back into sins, they are dead in sins again and need the same quickening as before (Eph. 2:1-9). The same is taught in Col. 2:11-13.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> is not only an assumption born of wrong inference, but it presumes Adam to have being in stature as equal to Jesus Christ.
> 
> But this is not an unusual assumption, for all men imagine so; that "if only" reserved to themselves in their believing they "could have" or "should have known better" that can only be dispelled as a vanity when the utter supremacy of Christ's "no vanity" is revealed.
> 
> Not an iota. Which testifies against our own.
> 
> 
> It is a gift to be embraced...this having our own vanity condemned at every turn. For it frees us from the penance we gladly take to ourselves in subterfuge for the display _of that vanity._ "I" should have known better, reserving to itself that it (the "I") had/has any power to be and do according to _its own_ better-ness.
> 
> Thanks be to God for none of that "if" in Christ nor His plea that it be fashioned to "Forgive them Father, they should know better". And yet here I speak in absurdity. But do not doubt I am qualified to the absurd having been shown mercy in all the absurdity of my own presumptions. Yes, I used to think Christ as one who simply gave me (and any) the power of "do over" as though (in that now) _more information_ bequeathed me a power to be "better". Living in comparison of Adam and Christ.
> 
> Is this saying Christ is not "better"? God forbid...for that is just as wrong an assumption as any other. But there is no comparison even if for some sake of clarity that Paul...(who came to understand)...refers to both Adam and Jesus Christ. But it is for the sake of dispelling comparison, not endorsing it.
> 
> The first man is of the earth...earthy...and was a living soul.
> 
> But Jesus Christ, the man of Heaven is Heavenly and is_ a life giving spirit_, and until such time as the truth of that matter dispels all dispositions toward a comparing of what is ultimately shown apples and oranges...(our language is such a poor discipline) the man who must compare (in not knowing) will compare.
> 
> 
> He cannot help himself...thinking "if only Adam had..." and then himself gives himself over to such penance he believes is right answer for transgressing by afflicting himself with such thinking. "If only I had..." and there offering up the affliction _of his own soul._
> 
> 
> 
> "When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin..." (and not the grief of our own experiences of consequences) He shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand".
> 
> Is it any wonder that chapter begins with "who hath believed our report?" And "to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?"
> 
> The lamb slain from the foundation of the world is all unlike the man who took the fruit.
> 
> But how? One might ask.
> 
> One tried to escape being an earthen vessel.
> 
> One submitted wholly to it.
> 
> Because the children were partakers of flesh and blood he likewise partook of the same...
> 
> And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
> 
> One man grasps at something.
> 
> Another is _entirely different _because He does not.
> 
> There is no comparing.



"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE" (Gal. 5:4). For a person to be "fallen from grace" by any means or any cause, he would need to be in grace first, in order to fall from it.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> And yet...Adam was perfect to that thing for which he was created.
> 
> That Jesus Christ be glorified.



Adam was created to be prefect and not sin, but he did, if he had not sin Christ would not have had to come and die for our sins. He was not created to that thing for to sin. God did not created him to sin or start sin in the world. If that is what you are replying then you are saying God is a sinner.


----------



## gordon 2

To say that Christians are dead to or safe of the deadening power of evil due their understanding of a dispensation where in Christ they are made immune to the  illnesses and sins due the world, that these no longer hinder the new man, that where  we might practice the Great Commission... that in the environments we walk though as ministers of the HS, were and when we come face to face with the power of the world which has a charisma all of its own... that though we are made sick by the world for our placements in it, that I can't be made deaf and dumb sufficient to hinder my life in heaven while here on earth is just not my experience. Even in the Spirit I must boot my heart out of the clouds of confusion and obscurity and brush my self up from  the fires of the world that cause in me to fall from the ecstacy of His life giving Glory. The world can make me so weary as to make me  forget and to live by my first love so that it is still an option.


----------



## gordon 2

Israel said:


> No doubt the _of Adam_ still holds to a god from whom he believes he can hide. With some ignorance attributable.


Did he hide his self or tried to hide his shame? Cain, his son, knew he was not hidden from the Lord, especially he asked for sanctuary of none other. Do you think by faith he was... ah...answered? ( But that is just a tangent.)


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> Adam was created to be prefect and not sin, but he did


That would not be on Adam.


Banjo Picker said:


> if he had not sin Christ would not have had to come and die for our sins.


Christ coming is the cause.


Banjo Picker said:


> He was not created to that thing for to sin. God did not created him to sin or start sin in the world.


The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, _so_ shall it stand:


Banjo Picker said:


> If that is what you are replying then you are saying God is a sinner.


Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed _it_, Why hast thou made me thus?


----------



## Madman

StriperAddict said:


> StriperAddict said:
> 
> 
> 
> To which I reply, tho the outer man perishes the inner man is renewed (to the knowledge of Christ) day by day.
> 
> 
> 
> Theosis?
Click to expand...


----------



## StriperAddict

Madman said:


> Theosis?


Yes, the renewing of the mind, the last place of battle until we're home.


----------



## gordon 2

Let us be mindful then... with changed minds:

"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God’s creation. 15I know your deeds; you are neither cold nor hot. How I wish you were one or the other! 16So because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to vomit you out of My mouth!…"


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Huh?
> 
> Again...do you hear yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The lamb slain from the foundation of the world...is not God "making up stuff" as He goes along to fix things. But I get the attraction...men naturally do that.
> 
> And, no less, the vast attribution toward Jesus Christ (and of His revelation) as God's plan "B" for His failed plan A.
> 
> Why men would believe such a god...is God is not as strange as once it seemed, for homo religialis is forever making god(s) after his own image. gods being limited to the "finding out" only when the "I" find out. And so stuff is made up in the going along. The soul (of which Adam was made a "living" one) is now forever in need of patching up, and so provisions are made up in that along the way.
> 
> It is all...natural. As natural as can be. Jesus addressed it many times and quite pointedly as those who took their stand upon being the recipients of God's law perverted such to their accommodating.
> 
> Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of **** than yourselves.
> Woe unto you, _ye_ blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
> _Ye_ fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?
> And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
> _Ye_ fools and blind: for whether _is_ greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
> Whoso therefore shall swear by the altar, sweareth by it, and by all things thereon. And whoso shall swear by the temple, sweareth by it, and by him that dwelleth therein.
> And he that shall swear by heaven, sweareth by the throne of God, and by him that sitteth thereon.
> 
> 
> 
> I have not denied Adam's perfection to the ends of God's purpose. But to take the above as true makes Christ's coming and His revelation...totally sin dependent...according to the doing (or not doing) of Adam. God forbid!
> 
> But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you...
> 
> One should not quote what one does not believe...as in the apostle's testimony but used rather for self endorsement.



Yes I know what I said, and its the truth, nothing twisted or changed.   

"_Whosoever transgresset, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,_ hath not God. He that abideth  . . . hath both the Father and the Son" (2 Jn. 9, 10). Those that do not abide have neither the Father nor the Son, so will be lost unless they repent.


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> That would not be on Adam.
> 
> Christ coming is the cause.
> 
> The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, _so_ shall it stand:
> 
> Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed _it_, Why hast thou made me thus?



"_The soul that sinneth IT SHALL DIE"_ Ezek. 18:4. Both the righteous and wicked are referred to in Ezek. 3:18-21; 18:4-34; 33:11-20, so if both classes are addressed as dying when sin is committed, it is foolish to contradict God. The same thing was SAID TO ADAM (Gen. 2:17, so if he died when he sinned, then the righteous today will also die for committing sin. It simply means that any man who sins will be sent to He11. For eternal He11 is the death penalty.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "_The soul that sinneth IT SHALL DIE"_ Ezek. 18:4. Both the righteous and wicked are referred to in Ezek. 3:18-21; 18:4-34; 33:11-20, so if both classes are addressed as dying when sin is committed, it is foolish to contradict God. The same thing was SAID TO ADAM (Gen. 2:17, so if he died when he sinned, then the righteous today will also die for committing sin. It simply means that any man who sins will be sent to He11. For eternal He11 is the death penalty.


It is not about the sin or the sinner. If you are ever brought to the Place to be shown this, you will have much editing to do... and you will be up to the task.


----------



## gordon 2

gemcgrew said:


> It is not about the sin or the sinner. If you are ever brought to the Place to be shown this, you will have much editing to do... and you will be up to the task.




"In your anger do not sin: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold."

Paul is talking to Christians here and is building them up and cautions them not to sin at least from anger.

"Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

Neither give place to the devil."



Then Paul continues in Ephesians  that we should have clean talk to bless others.

"Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."

You see that grace is not only from God but from the believer. You see it?

..."minister grace to the hearers". " And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. "

After healing sick folk Jesus cautions ( the paralytic) "to sin no more because the result will be worse than the illness they were healed of.

It would seem that sin is still an issue to God for Christians and others...but for Christians it seems that sin gives a foothold to the devil and robs a Christian from ministering grace.

It would seem that a Christian with sin can or does grieve the Holy Spirit that though they are sealed by Christ through the HS in them, their lives are a pale of what they can be. Christian sinners like Cain remain captives in their redeemer's sanctuary but they cannot be the ministers of grace they are meant to be in the eternal life relationship.

Therefore a Christian with sin is an issue with the Holy Spirit and a Christian with the HS grieving is not as effective at ministering God's grace to the world and other Christians.  Sin is a very real and important issue for the saved individual ( for the Christian) where the HS demands all of our attention. Simply how can a Christian do or fully know the will of God and depend on the power of God if he or she is renting a room in their soul to the spinner of lies?

I would say that sin has an affect on eternal life and that Christians must continually ask for forgiveness of their sins...if eternal life is to be what it is meant to be. One is not able to hear God due sin as they are meant to hear him when they are fighting the devil in their own lives. Sin condemns us to judgement, especially our own so that we are not fully present to our Lord.

  "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."


And Israel, no one doubts the other's faith in here I would think. And it is perhaps good that we don't all see eye to eye on doctrine and so we buy into all the foolishness we entertain in ourselves but check with ourselves who are to Christ to purge and clean up in fellowship. It being the talk is otherwise in vain.


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> That our Lord would include sinners in Himself in His service to His Father...is a marvel; where editing becomes a rather delightfully directional occupation.


His goings forth are from everlasting. Micah 5:2

Sinners in Himself from everlasting.

Justified in Christ from everlasting.

Accepted in the Beloved from everlasting.

Everlasting


----------



## formula1

Thanks to God for everlasting!

Romans 8
38 For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, 39 nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God . . . _if any man defile the temple of God,_ HIM SHALL GOD DESTROY; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are" (1 Cor. 3:16-18; 6:9-11, 19, 20. This passage applies only to Christians as sinners do not have the Holy Spirit (Rom. 8:9). This is an untruth if God would not do what He said through Paul. Some did defile themselves and they lost eternal life (Titus 1:15; Heb. 12:12-15; Rev. 3:4, 5; 21:27).


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> It is not about the sin or the sinner. If you are ever brought to the Place to be shown this, you will have much editing to do... and you will be up to the task.


Not every one that saith unto me, Lord Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of the Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me that day, Lord, Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: ye that work iniquity.


----------



## gemcgrew

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil" (2 Tim. 25-26).


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Many shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Tim. 4:1).


----------



## Banjo Picker

_"Whosoever transgresseth,_ and _abideth not in the doctrine of Christ,_ hath not God. He that abideth . . . hath both the Father and the Son" (2 Jn.9, 10). Those that do not abide have neither the Father nor the Son, so will be lost unless they repent.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be CAST OUT, and to be TRODDEN under foot of men" (Mt. 5:13, 14).


----------



## Banjo Picker

" We ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard [the gospel] lest at ANY TIME we should let them slip. For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and _every transgression and disobedience received a just recompense of reward; _HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE, IF WE NEGLECT so great salvation?" (Heb. 2:1-3). No person can neglect something that he does not have. Paul here warns saints that _every_ _sin_ will be judged by God and that it is possible to let the truth and salvation slip away. This certainly shows sinning-saints will come before God in judgment as well as sinners.


----------



## Madman

Seems to be laced with much Calvinism, of whom I am no fan.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> I have little doubt something tastes at least a bit funny (strange, odd, not fitting) to you in some of the things written that



I don't think anything is funny about God's word, and for HOW SHALL WE ESCAPE IF WE NEGLECT so great salvation? Meaning a man cannot escape He11, if he sins and neglects so great salvation.


----------



## Madman

Banjo Picker said:


> Wrong.


What is wrong?  Those who say salvation cannot be lost have a Calvinist bent.


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## Banjo Picker

"If a man be overtaken in a fault (sin) ye which are spiritual RESTORE such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted" (Gal. 6:1) and go back in sin.


----------



## Madman

Banjo Picker said:


> Wrong.


Still no answer


----------



## gemcgrew

Madman said:


> Those who say salvation cannot be lost have a Calvinist bent.


Or they have a Savior.


----------



## Madman

gemcgrew said:


> Or they have a Savior.


Maybe they do, maybe they don’t.  Pointless remark.


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## Banjo Picker

Madman said:


> Still no answer


post wrong by mistake sorry


----------



## Banjo Picker

"For now we [Christians] live, IF [on condition that] ye stand fast in the Lord" (1 Thess. 3:8). This states the condition of continued eternal life.


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> What is wrong?  Those who say salvation cannot be lost have a Calvinist bent.


Still wrong. 
I am not a Calvinist and I absolutely believe in eternal security.


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## Banjo Picker

Do not choose a new convert as a deacon, "lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil," that this, fall by pride as Satan did (1 Tim. 3:6; Ezek. 28:11-17). beyond doubt, if deacons are saved men, then saved men can fall as Satan did and be lost.


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## Banjo Picker

" These things I write unto you, THAT YE SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have and advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" (1 Jn. 2:1, 2). Saved men can sin and be lost if, when they sin, they do not use their advocate.


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## Banjo Picker

Jude speaks of some who were "twice dead" (Jude 12). Men are born dead in sins, so to die a second time would have to be after the new birth. This proves men can die more than once and therefore they can be made alive more than once.


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## Banjo Picker

"In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil" (2 Tim. 2:25, 26).


----------



## Banjo Picker

Moses wrote this song: "They have corrupted themselves . . . They sacrificed to devils, not to God . . . Of the Rock that begat thee . . . thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God . . . WHEN the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, BECAUSE of the provoking of his sons and daughters . . . They have moved me to jealousy . . . provoked me to anger . . . a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest he11 . . . I will heap mischiefs (calamities) upon them" Deut. 32:1-44. According to this Scripture born again men who are sons and daughters of God can backslide, fall from grace, forget God, provoke Him to anger, and cause Him to abhor them and destroy them in the lowest he11.

If God spared not the [angels] or sons of God and daughters which were in Heaven, what make us any better than they if we sin, as they did?


----------



## StriperAddict

Israel said:


> I likewise find liberty to...enjoying the liberty with those among whom I find myself.


Yes, that's just one reason eternal life is a "who" not an it! Relational enjoyment with Father and kids is as deep as the ocean is wide.



Israel said:


> For if rightly you say a man cannot neglect what he does not have, cannot it not also be said no man can truly neglect what is great to him?
> 
> How is it shown how great a salvation we have...if not by the very One who is "it"?
> 
> *Can He...fail?*


Christ never fails (since love never fails, and God is ....!! ), and that is wondrously, transformationally outstanding.


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## Banjo Picker

"Is it a light thing for Judah to commit these abominations . . . to provoke me to anger . . . I also will DEAL with them in fury, my eye will not spare neither will I have pity" (Ezek. 8:17, 18).


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty were with Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled AGAIN with the yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5:1).


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## Banjo Picker

"Every branch IN ME [being in Christ makes one a new creature and a holy branch, 2 Cor. 5:17; Rom. 11:16] . . . that beareth not fruit _he taketh away _[not taken to Heaven or be laid on the shelf] . . . he is cast forth as a branch, and IS WITHERED; and men gather them and CAST THEM INTO THE FIRE, and THEY ARE BURNED" Jn. 15:1, 2, 6). To teach from this passage that all men are "in Christ" is to teach that all men are "clean" for the same men He said "ye are the branches . . . Now ye are clean through the work which I have spoken unto you" Jn. 15:3, 5. The same ones that were "branches" and were "in Christ" also had Christ in them Jn. 15:4-7. This statement could never be made of sinners, for Paul said "Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates" 2 Cor. 13:5 and "if Christ be in you the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" Rom. 8:9, 10.

To teach, as ultra-graceists do, that "in me" means the universal sense of being in Christ and "taketh away" means taken to Heaven is to teach that all men are saved, that God is pruning all men, that all men are "clean" by the Word, that God is the "Father" and "husbandman" of all men and that all men will be taken to Heaven. If these things are true then these teachers ought to quit worrying about the security of any one, for all are saved, and if all are saved and no saved man can be lost, then all have eternal life and will go to Heaven. If this is true then we do not need churches or preachers and we should get rid of both.

The more these people twist and deny Scripture to prove some unscriptural doctrine, the more they become inconsistent with themselves and the Bible. If John 15 does refer only to saved men then it is certain that they can get out of Christ, be cut off and be burned, and if this does not mean the loss of the soul it means nothing. If the branches can be cut off, then it proves holy people can be cut off and be burned, for Rom. 11:16 says, "If the root be holy, SO ARE THE BRANCHES." If holy men can be lost through sin then saved me can be lost, and once saved, always saved is false.


----------



## Banjo Picker

'Many shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils (1 Tim. 4:1).


----------



## crackerdave

Forgive me for not reading all 14 pages of this discussion,but eternal life that can be lost is not eternal.
Very simple.


----------



## brutally honest

crackerdave said:


> Forgive me for not reading all 14 pages of this discussion,but eternal life that can be lost is not eternal.
> Very simple.



You’re forgiven, but this is simplistic, not simple.


----------



## gordon 2

"Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.…"

As long as the "saved"  man will have a dual nature,  and he does, one born of God and one remained born of sin... he will try to invent all kinds of constructs to justify himself.

Sometimes I'm righteous and sometimes I despise my brothers, but my riding horse is the content of Grace which is love. In this regards John is my groom and trainer. And my horse will out strip all other constructs... Its mare is faith and the sire is hope as in my love there is both, my love not of the world.


----------



## Banjo Picker

crackerdave said:


> Forgive me for not reading all 14 pages of this discussion,but eternal life that can be lost is not eternal.
> Very simple.



Judas had eternal life, and he lost it.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Did he?


Yes he sure did.


----------



## crackerdave

Steel sharpens steel.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Have I not chosen you twelve and one of you is a devil?



Yeap he chose to turn to the devil, and you just might too, man don't what any man might do.


----------



## Banjo Picker

The apostle Judas is an outstanding example of a man once saved who was lost because of sin.

In Scripture we have statements that Judas was to be a man who was a "familiar friend" of Christ who are of His bread, which is an idiom of close friendship (Ps. 41:9). He was not and enemy of Christ, but an equal in GRACE, a guide and a sweet acquaintance (Ps. 55:12, 13). He was to have his habitation desolate and be botted out of the book of the living (Ps. 69:25-28 with Acts 1:20), and he was to have "another take his place" in the Christian ministry and in the kingship over one of the tribes of Israel (Ps. 109:8). These passages were fulfilled in Judas according to Mt. 26:24; Jn. 13:18; Acts 1:16-25.

In Matt. 10 we have the facts recorded that judas as one of the "twelve disciples" received power over demons, sicknesses and diseases and a call to preach the gospel. Of these twelve (Judas included) it is said that Christ gave them power and sent them forth, and commanded them to preach, and to heal the sick. Christ said to Judas and all twelve, "freely ye have received, freely give . . . I send you forth as sheep . . . it shall not be ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you" (Mt. 10:1-20).

These statements prove that Judas was once chosen as a genuine apostle. He was then once a true believer a saved man, one divinely empowered for service and equal in every sense to the others, a called preacher, a destroyer of Satan's works, an obedient man, a sheep, a man filled with the Spirit, and one who had God as his "Father."


----------



## formula1

There are things that concern me here.  Salvation had not yet come through Christ so where is the evidence of Salvation by grace through faith? And the Holy Spirit had not come so the works he was under the authority of the Spirit of Christ, not the in-dwelling Holy Spirit. So I don’t think we can confirm him as saved!  But I welcome your view on his evidence of salvation.

Could it actually be that a house divided cannot stand?

Luke 22
3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. 4 He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.


----------



## Banjo Picker

formula1 said:


> There are things that concern me here.  Salvation had not yet come through Christ so where is the evidence of Salvation by grace through faith? And the Holy Spirit had not come so the works he was under the authority of the Spirit of Christ, not the in-dwelling Holy Spirit. So I don’t think we can confirm him as saved!  But I welcome your view on his evidence of salvation.
> 
> Could it actually be that a house divided cannot stand?
> 
> Luke 22
> 3 Then Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot, who was of the number of the twelve. 4 He went away and conferred with the chief priests and officers how he might betray him to them. 5 And they were glad, and agreed to give him money. 6 So he consented and sought an opportunity to betray him to them in the absence of a crowd.


Then would that not make none of the twelve not saved as well?


----------



## formula1

Banjo Picker said:


> Then would that not make none of the twelve not saved as well?



Not neccessarily!

John 17
12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.


----------



## Madman

Paul did not believe in once saved always saved.

Philippians 3: 10 I want to knowChrist—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us, then, who are matureshould take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you.16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.


----------



## Banjo Picker

formula1 said:


> Not neccessarily!
> 
> John 17
> 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.



I will have to disagree for he could not cast out devils and heal the sick without the Holy Ghost.


----------



## formula1

Banjo Picker said:


> I will have to disagree for he could not cast out devils and heal the sick without the Holy Ghost.



But there was a very big difference here. The spirit was with them because Christ was with them.  The Holy Spirit could not be in them until Jesus was with His Father.  But when they received the promise (Acts 2), they were sealed!

John 14
15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.


----------



## Banjo Picker

In Mark 6:7-13 we read that the twelve (Judas included) went "forth two by two . . . and preached that men should repent. And they [Judas included] cast out devils, and anointed with oil many that were sick, and healed them."

This proves that Judas was a divinely efficient man a successful preacher and endued with power to heal. If he was not a saved man and if could have all these experiences and do all these miracles as a sinner, then it would seem that the modern Christians who claim to be saved regardless of what they do should be able to do as much as Judas did whom they say was never saved. It is unreasonable and going too far to accuse Jesus of choosing an unsaved man to preach repentance and holiness, to heal the sick to cast out devils, and to represent the kingdom of God among men. Such men would rather hold on to this sinning-saint heresy than to cease accusing Jesus of such an unholy precedent whereby they make God's Word a lie. The only proof some men give to prove Judas was never saved is their own belief that Judas was not a saved man at one time because he was finally lost. They do not give one Scripture that proves that he was never saved, but they cite John 6:64-70, which passage does not say that Judas had at all times been a devil and unsaved. Jesus, in this Scripture was speaking of "some" of His disciples that believed not. "For Jesus knew from the beginning who were that believed not, and who should betray him." The first part of this statement refers to the "some" that did not believe and does not include Judas for after these had left Jesus, Judas was still with the twelve whom Jesus asked, "will ye also go away?" Only the last part of this statement refers to Judas. Jesus not only knew who did not believe, but He also knew who would betray Him. He did not say that Judas did not believe or that he was a devil from the beginning and therefore was not a saved man.


----------



## formula1

I know what you believe and you could be right.  I merely gave you scripture that gave a different point of view so you could see that you don’t know as you think you do! I don’t know either by the way! 

So I only ask you this. Try looking at scripture in context without a predetermined belief! It will humble you and free you mind to know Him fully!


----------



## Banjo Picker

formula1 said:


> I know what you believe and you could be right.  I merely gave you scripture that gave a different point of view so you could see that you don’t know as you think you do! I don’t know either by the way!
> 
> So I only ask you this. Try looking at scripture in context without a predetermined belief! It will humble you and free you mind to know Him fully!



I only look at by the Holy Spirit showing me, and it is plain and simple to understand, it is not hard to understand God, didn't make it hard for man to understand his Word. I have no predetermined belief. Just God's Word is my belief.


----------



## formula1

Ok then! If that is what you think I cannot convince you otherwise. God bless!


----------



## brutally honest

formula1 said:


> Try looking at scripture in context without a predetermined belief!



Nice in theory but difficult in practice.


----------



## furtaker

"Eternal (unending) life can be lost."

Thread title sure makes logical sense.


----------



## formula1

Judas was spoken of long before his time:

Psalm 41:9 Even my close friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted his heel against me.


----------



## formula1

Humility causes one to hear the oracles of God by the Holy Spirit!

Pride says to steal the sign of God as a symbol for a flag!

Now after you read that last line, did you say Father forgive them or did you laugh?

I’ll admit I did both, for we are scarcely saved!


----------



## Banjo Picker

_Ananias and Sapphira were both killed by the power of God because of covetousness and lying to the Holy Ghost_ (Acts 5:1-14).

 They were once saved as is clear from Acts 4:32-5:1, for Ananias and his wife were classed with "the multitude of them that believed" and "were of one heart and one soul . . . as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of things that were sold and laid them down at the apostles' feet . . . But a certain man [of those who believed and were of one heart and one soul] named Anaias, with Sapphira his wife sold a possession." If these were to believers and had been saved and were in the church, then it cannot be disputed with any degree of honesty that they were once saved and then lost. To deny they were saved is to deny truth and it is not worth the price one has to pay.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Judas did believe as proved in the facts above concerning his power and success in casting out devils and healing the sick. One cannot do these things unless he does believe. even unconditional securityites cannot do these things after their one act of faith, which they contend is all that is necessary to be saved. Judas had to repent, believe, and be baptized in water to become a disciple and especially to be chosen as an apostle to do miracles.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"He that soweth to the flesh _SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION_" and not eternal life (Gal. 6:7, 8). This means saved men can be lost if they sow to the flesh.


----------



## gordon 2

"If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." John 15:7


----------



## Banjo Picker

gordon 2 said:


> "If you remain in me and my words remain in you


True if they don't go back into sinning.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God (Fall from the grace of God) lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled" Heb. 12:15. Thus not only can man fall from grace and fail of grace so to that he does not have it, but he can be destroyed because he is defiled (1 Cor. 3:16, 17).


----------



## Madman

gordon 2 said:


> "If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you." John 15:7




"If you remain in me and my words remain in you,"  Does this mean it is conditional?


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> "If you remain in me and my words remain in you,"  Does this mean it is conditional?



One who remains in Him will always receive his requests for he/she will not ask outside of His will!


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> One who remains in Him will always receive his requests for he/she will not ask outside of His will!


So those who ask for anything inappropriate are outside of God's will, or is it their request that is outside of his will?


----------



## Madman

Banjo Picker said:


> "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God (Fall from the grace of God) lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled" Heb. 12:15. Thus not only can man fall from grace and fail of grace so to that he does not have it, but he can be destroyed because he is defiled (1 Cor. 3:16, 17).


You have to watch that St. Paul, and the writer of Hebrews, they had the ability to write rather bluntly sometimes.


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> So those who ask for anything inappropriate are outside of God's will, or is it their request that is outside of his will?



Why would one ask for anything inappropriate who remains in Him?


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> Why would one ask for anything inappropriate who remains in Him?


Maybe Sin.  Do we ALWAYS know God's perfect will?


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> Maybe Sin.  Do we ALWAYS know God's perfect will?



We certainly can sin and we certainly don’t know Gods will always. But abiding in Him and in his words will lead us to right requests!  Now if you just don’t know, they is a way Godly folks can ask anything by simply trusting God with the answer! That doesn’t seem hard or difficult to me!


----------



## Banjo Picker

I disagree His Word tells us what to do, it’s not understanding it but for man to do exactly what it says.


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> We certainly can sin and we certainly don’t know Gods will always. But abiding in Him and in his words will lead us to right requests!  Now if you just don’t know, they is a way Godly folks can ask anything by simply trusting God with the answer! That doesn’t seem hard or difficult to me!



"Godly folks"  seems to leave out a whole bunch of "other folks".

Mirror meet self.


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> "Godly folks"  seems to leave out a whole bunch of "other folks".
> 
> Mirror meet self.



Hmm! Seems your motivation was to find fault rather than truth. You are not so uninformed that you don’t know God answers things from Godly and the ungodly. But they usually are very different prayers!


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> Hmm! Seems your motivation was to find fault rather than truth. You are not so uninformed that you don’t know God answers things from Godly and the ungodly. But they usually are very different prayers!


i find no fault. i look for answers.


----------



## Banjo Picker

" if any man abide not in me, he cast forth as a branch, and is withered and men gather them and cast them into the fire, and they are burned" Jn. 15:6. This much is certain: the branches that wither and become fruitless were once in the vine otherwise they would not be branches of the vine. The responsibility of staying in the vine (Christ) lies with the branches who can bear more or less fruit as they obey God and yield to Him to bring forth fruit. Thus, one can become out of Christ by his refusal to obey God and bring forth fruit.


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> i find no fault. i look for answers.


Keep on searching!


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> Keep on searching!


Always.  More to learn about Christ


----------



## formula1

James 2:13
For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.


----------



## Banjo Picker

When THEY KNEW GOD, they glorified him not as God . . . their foolish heart was darkened . . . they become fools . . . God gave them up to uncleanness . . . God gave them up to unto vile affections . . . God gave them up to a reprobate mind . . . Being filled with all unrighteousness . . . they are worthy of death (Rom. 1:21-32; 2:1-5).


----------



## Banjo Picker

"He that soweth to the flesh SHALL OF THE FLESH REAP CORRUPTION" and not eternal life Gal. 6:7, 8. This means saved men can be lost if they sow to the flesh.


----------



## gemcgrew

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 

I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth _it_, that _men_ should fear before him. 

But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"I do not frustrate (set aside, render useless) the grace of God" for the law program; for "then Christ is dead in vain" (Gal. 4:19).


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
> 
> I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth _it_, that _men_ should fear before him.
> 
> But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



"Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own (man choice), lust, and enticed. then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; when it is finished, bringeth forth death Jas.1:13-16. loosing eternal life.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> "Every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own (man choice), lust, and enticed. then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin; when it is finished, bringeth forth death Jas.1:13-16. loosing eternal life.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



Man cannot live for God and hold the hand of the devil.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Many shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"(1 Tim. 4:1).


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> Man cannot live for God and hold the hand of the devil.


What did you do with your "free moral agent"?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> "Many shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils"(1 Tim. 4:1).


Maybe those that depart have no "root."


----------



## gordon 2

What does spiritual freedom mean? Is it the same for all Christians? Is the Christian free to not be led by the Holy Spirit? In the event of  deliberate immoral acts is the Christian free of spiritual consequences that would put the non Christian into some form of spiritual captivity? Can a Christian with the sin of adultery or murder or hate or debauchery be more present spiritually ( freer) than a non Christian that is with the same sins? Can a Christian leave the faith, does he or she have such a freedom?

If there was a Sodom and Gomora today the Christian would be well in it? There would be no spiritual demand on his leaving-- he could serve  and even salt  the buffets with impunity?


Is the Christian  spiritually free even of God's reproach-- even the reproach not needing to occur?

Can a Christian be free of the complaint of his stench, a foil in comparison,  when explaining his spiritual freedom obtained through our Lord Jesus Christ?

What does spiritual freedom mean?


----------



## gordon 2

if: Oxford.  despite the possibility that.

I generally use (If) mostly as an appeal to reason.

Ok now can you provide a suggestion at least to my query: What does spiritual freedom mean? Or at least what does it mean to you? Is there such a thing even according to you?

Or perhaps we might look at it another way: What does salvation free us of or from as Christians that others are not free of or from? and what are we not free of or from even saved ( if such a thing) as others are not?

What is spiritual freedom?

My simpleton's reasoning is that you might be driving at the evangelical faith's construct of OSAS, for the bromide "
"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? _Shall_ tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

or the near and far doctrines of Grace...?


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> What did you do with your "free moral agent"?



Man is absolutely a free moral agent and serves the devil or God as he freely chooses. If man wants to turn to God from the devil, he is always free to do so, and if he wants to turn from God to the devil he is also free to do so. Neither master can force man to obey him if man does not freely choose to do so. Man has the free choice until death, of serving either.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe those that depart have no "root."



And this is why.

_The seed sown on stony ground,_ which immediately sprang up because it did not have much depth of earth, illustrates a class of people who receive the Word with joy. But they are shallow in their experience and the seed, because of lack of preparation in the ground, cannot go deep enough to take root to stand. In time of trouble and persecution, such persons are offended. They stumble and reject the Word as quickly as they receive it (Matt. 18:6; 2 Tim. 3:13). Believe it says after they received the word.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"IF ye forsake the Lord . . . and serve other gods, THEN he will turn and do you hurt, and consume you, AFTER that he hath done you good" (Josh. 24:2-20).


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> Man is absolutely a free moral agent and serves the devil or God as he freely chooses. If man wants to turn to God from the devil, he is always free to do so, and if he wants to turn from God to the devil he is also free to do so. Neither master can force man to obey him if man does not freely choose to do so. Man has the free choice until death, of serving either.


Then man is free to choose to live for God and hold the hand of the devil at the same time.

But you said, "Man cannot live for God and hold the hand of the devil". 

Does man have the free choice until death, of serving both at the same time? If not, why not?


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> Then man is free to choose to live for God and hold the hand of the devil at the same time.
> 
> But you said, "Man cannot live for God and hold the hand of the devil".
> 
> Does man have the free choice until death, of serving both at the same time? If not, why not?


 yes they can try the Bible has a name for these people, but I doubt if you even know what it is. Then again I would like for you to tell me what they are called,? answer please.


----------



## Spotlite

gemcgrew said:


> That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.



WHEN are you born of the spirit?


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> oooh oooh, pick me, pick me...


Ok, your fingers are itching to type, you’re picked.

In regard to that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit - when are you born of the spirit?


----------



## madsam

He himself Messiah Jesus is our intercessor and advocate with the
Father....If we are saved  no matter how terrible our sins are , Jesus
advocates for us , he is our intercessor and advocate with the father.
   We are created beings , we don't have the power to separate our-selves
from the love of God found in Messiah Jesus.  ETERNAL LIFE CANNOT BE LOST
if you believe that Jesus died on the cross and wiped away your sins.


We don't become God's children by doing good ; we become his children by
entering into a FORGIVEN relationship with God because of what the Lord has done for us. Redeemed by grace  is greater than all our sin.

Could you imagine being at the judgment seat and having no sins to reveal ...
Only our Lord Jesus is sin free..

Check out this Romans 8: 38-39 , and one more  John 10:28-29...


----------



## OwlRNothing

The Apostle Paul: "If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" Romans 10:9. I don't see anything saying " but IF you sin again..." 
In fact, the Bible is full of declarations that your sins are forgiven, washed away, and as far as east is from west. Here's more confirmation that Christians are "once saved, always saved." 

John 5:24 "Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

How is that not abundantly clear?

17 pages of people arguing about something God has already settled and declared to his Creation. smh ???

edited: 18 pages now.


----------



## StriperAddict

gordon 2 said:


> What does spiritual freedom mean?
> 
> Can a Christian leave the faith, does he or she have such a freedom?


Its been said, the enemy wants us to be either 1) opposed to God’s grace or 2) uncertain about it.

I agree. 

The (1) opposition to grace is the open door to self sufficiency, pride and thus void of spiritual power, 

And Grace's uncertainty is the missing piece and killer of the abundant experience of indwelling Life, that, though many have life, transformation, Christ in them, the picking and dicing up of the reality of it causes them and many to loose their true hope. To them,  sealed by the Holy Spirit is poppycock. 

And yet He comes to such and does not waver in the promise of His rest and, that grace would teach many of the indwelling power to denying ungodliness, the world, the flesh and the devil.  

Seriously, do you or any redeemed life, want to play in the sandbox of sins you mentioned? There you have it, a simple proof of a heart now Christ's home. He isn't going to leave, and, although I'll be ducking the soon tossed religious tomatoes of the legalists,  I'd say ...
neither can you.


----------



## furtaker

There are many consequences to sin in a believer's life.

Hades isn't one of them.


----------



## Spotlite

StriperAddict said:


> Its been said, the enemy wants us to be either 1) opposed to God’s grace or 2) uncertain about it.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> The (1) opposition to grace is the open door to self sufficiency, pride and thus void of spiritual power,
> 
> And Grace's uncertainty is the missing piece and killer of the abundant experience of indwelling Life, that, though many have life, transformation, Christ in them, the picking and dicing up of the reality of it causes them and many to loose their true hope. To them,  sealed by the Holy Spirit is poppycock.
> 
> And yet He comes to such and does not waver in the promise of His rest and, that grace would teach many of the indwelling power to denying ungodliness, the world, the flesh and the devil.
> 
> Seriously, do you or any redeemed life, want to play in the sandbox of sins you mentioned? There you have it, a simple proof of a heart now Christ's home. He isn't going to leave, and, although I'll be ducking the soon tossed religious tomatoes of the legalists,  I'd say ...
> neither can you.





> And yet He comes to such and does not waver in the promise of His rest and, that grace would teach many of the indwelling power to denying ungodliness, the world, the flesh and the devil.


Reading between the lines here but I don’t think it’s about Him wavering His promises. What they’re getting at is go past the teaching of denying ungodliness to those that have been taught and then deny it. Yes there’s scripture that says they will and have AFTER knowing the way of righteousness. And many depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. 


> Seriously, do you or any redeemed life, want to play in the sandbox of sins you mentioned? There you have it, a simple proof of a heart now Christ's home. He isn't going to leave, and, although I'll be ducking the soon tossed religious tomatoes of the legalists,  I'd say ...
> neither can you.


It’s not about Him leaving or one playing in a sandbox of sins. He isn’t going to dwell in an unclean temple - period. 

Not a “legalist” or other man made term here, but scripture says here’s your flesh - Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like………they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

And flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other. 

Basically, you ain’t going to hold hands with the devil and God at the same time. 

Of course Jesus is our Advocate if we sin, but He also told the lady to go and sin no more. 

It looks like some are saying they’re covered so their “fleshly actions” isn’t considered sin anymore??


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Oh, how wonderful to be reaching the conclusion of _our program!_
> 
> _Soon up, the sponsor._
> 
> 
> but first back to our contestants...
> 
> Remember we are looking for "what must be gone or seen through to see what is not "unstable".
> 
> Gee, Bob, does the answer start with double? I holler at the screen.
> 
> (I think I'm allowed to play along at home because the fellow on screen appears too embarrassed for the paid host to even answer, it's like he got pulled up "on stage" from off the street to now be part of a carnival show...of which he'll have no part)
> 
> 
> And "answer...please" well, that's christianese for _hiding blades_ for those of you at home who need translation.
> 
> 
> 
> Skin that smokewagon and see what happens...cause remember...it's not that everyone gets a turn at reply, it's that everyone is already in reply.
> 
> "Greed" [she said] "will sure take a man to the edge"
> 
> "No" [he responded] "that's what _greed is_"
> 
> Cormac McCarthy, The Counselor




Matt. 16:23 Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and _ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him" _(Jn.3:15). What about these backsliders or _cracked pots_ who hate their bothers? Do they have eternal life? Who is right, God or man?


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> So glad you said "looks like".



Or, are they saying it’s impossible for them to sin? Can they just commit adultery and walk home like nothing happened? What do they do if they do commit adultery? Or, is it even considered adultery because they’re “saved”?  Maybe they can explain?


----------



## Banjo Picker

madsam said:


> He himself Messiah Jesus is our intercessor and advocate with the
> Father....If we are saved  no matter how terrible our sins are , Jesus
> advocates for us , he is our intercessor and advocate with the father.
> We are created beings , we don't have the power to separate our-selves
> from the love of God found in Messiah Jesus.  ETERNAL LIFE CANNOT BE LOST
> if you believe that Jesus died on the cross and wiped away your sins.
> 
> 
> We don't become God's children by doing good ; we become his children by
> entering into a FORGIVEN relationship with God because of what the Lord has done for us. Redeemed by grace  is greater than all our sin.
> 
> Could you imagine being at the judgment seat and having no sins to reveal ...
> Only our Lord Jesus is sin free..
> 
> Check out this Romans 8: 38-39 , and one more  John 10:28-29...



The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and if men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe some, they would show some consistency and honesty regarding the whole Word of God, Judas not only had a moral fall but sin caused it.


----------



## gemcgrew

gemcgrew said:


> Does man have the free choice until death, of serving both at the same time? If not, why not?





Banjo Picker said:


> yes they can try





Banjo Picker said:


> Man is absolutely a free moral agent


There is no try with "absolutely". You continue to refute yourself over and over again.
Why?


----------



## gemcgrew

Spotlite said:


> WHEN are you born of the spirit?


When God is pleased to reveal His Son in you.


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> There is no try with "absolutely". You continue to refute yourself over and over again.
> Why?


 And you still did not answer the question like I said if you know the Bible you would know who I am talking about.


----------



## Spotlite

gemcgrew said:


> When God is pleased to reveal His Son in you.



So when you witness to people it’s just a flat one liner with that^^


----------



## tell sackett

StriperAddict said:


> Its been said, the enemy wants us to be either 1) opposed to God’s grace or 2) uncertain about it.
> 
> I agree.
> 
> The (1) opposition to grace is the open door to self sufficiency, pride and thus void of spiritual power,
> 
> And Grace's uncertainty is the missing piece and killer of the abundant experience of indwelling Life, that, though many have life, transformation, Christ in them, the picking and dicing up of the reality of it causes them and many to loose their true hope. To them,  sealed by the Holy Spirit is poppycock.
> 
> And yet He comes to such and does not waver in the promise of His rest and, that grace would teach many of the indwelling power to denying ungodliness, the world, the flesh and the devil.
> 
> Seriously, do you or any redeemed life, want to play in the sandbox of sins you mentioned? There you have it, a simple proof of a heart now Christ's home. He isn't going to leave, and, although I'll be ducking the soon tossed religious tomatoes of the legalists,  I'd say ...
> neither can you.



“Did God really say…?”


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> oops...now yer givin more hints...so it's not a "type" of man as in double minded...so that's out...it's a particular who...um, er...I'll take "Donkey Rebuked Prophets" for 400 Alex.
> 
> (But I'll admit I like playing Movie Trivia far more than Bible Trivia)
> 
> Ya know...the game of "I know more than you" is rarely played with such vigor in the AAA section, so it would appear a man who took a hit for saying he has witnessed an AA hold a higher level of morality in a church may not be off the mark as some would imply as nonsense.
> 
> As they say in the Capitol One commercial in regards to wallets, but with only a slight variance, "What's in your casket?"


Or…….you could tell us why we have warnings about being deceived such as this if you’re “safe” - But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

And how this happen???

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.


----------



## gemcgrew

Spotlite said:


> So when you witness to people it’s just a flat one liner with that^^


No. That is my answer to your question.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> And you still did not answer the question like I said if you know the Bible you would know who I am talking about.


You have yet to establish who you are talking about with your self-refutation.


----------



## formula1

Let this be what you hear and heed in this thread!

James 3:17
But the wisdom from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, open to reason, full of mercy and good fruits, impartial and sincere.


----------



## Ruger#3

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood. I know that after my departure fierce wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them. Therefore be alert, remembering that for three years I did not cease night or day to admonish everyone with tears.


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> Because God who see and knows _all things, _knows what has and is coming to the light to seek to extinguish it. And like a horde of moths doing what they do, mechanically/mechanistically in response to light, hover, swarm and ceaselessly flap about; thus reducing in atmosphere/ambiance (in this case the earth) the effects of light. Throwing shadows everywhere. See: lights and bushel baskets. And why a man came to light up men through revelation of Himself.
> 
> "It", this mind that is always in furious trying, attempt, striving to pervert and gather to itself light to its own ends for its own glory is far more "skilled" in such entrenchment of endeavors and scheme than the natural mind of man in its linear reasonings...now "if" lit in spirit (occupied of Christ) is in process and need of renewing. This is done by the ceaseless "pulsing" (if you will or can)...but hey, pulse is really quite a good word for what is alive...of that light in spirit that is now given to inform that mind...once only subject to "outer", sensible influence.
> 
> Source has in all, changed. From outer "coming in" and thereby through a series of inferences and linked and linear reasonings which are then established as true to the man the mind is formed. Now from within moving out...spirit to soul...to even body as the apostle mentions in sequence of salvation, the man is in "being saved".
> 
> Warnings come as part and parcel of that proceeding, not to "make it be". And that is the error of such linear reasoning "why warn if it is safe?". These warnings are equippings to an end that can never be arrived at linearly, inference upon inference.
> 
> Who knows that line upon line and precept upon precept is the recipe for:
> 
> that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken?
> 
> What is that end? Desirable?
> 
> It is precisely because of proceeding in following signs are given along the way...something is trying to move a thing (or keep its informing) from the grace of God...in reasonings. And such "signs" are given as "coming to the man" in visions, dreams, revelations..._pictures of a whole, _not commandments of words engraved in stone...(or even on a page) that he himself might order. As in "today I will learn what I purpose to learn" Really? Or even..."today I will teach what I purpose to teach" and even further..."do what I purpose to do".
> 
> 
> 
> The man unconvinced...or swayed in any manner to ditches finds not his fear of being lost sufficient to any keeping of himself. What he will learn (O! but this is too bold, a man saying what will be for another man!) that God cannot be thwarted in any measure to His purpose. This is the one Jesus Christ has promised to "show" in
> 
> but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him. (Young's Literal for unambiguity)
> 
> And this He indeed does...in and through Himself...Jesus the Christ. Then we come to understand a thing (if we do) "all His commandments are to eternal life" and not born of "you may be lost, otherwise".
> 
> This showing of whom all dread is due...even to the repeating (do you hear it?)
> 
> but I will show to you, whom ye may fear; Fear him who, after the killing, is having authority to cast to the gehenna; yes, I say to you, Fear ye Him.
> 
> Oh, but the man is terrified of gehenna! He fears he might go...and so speaking from his own fears he ministers...no man can give but what he has, and no man can minister what he does not.
> 
> But this other matter that is repeated so as to remain unconfused..."Fear ye Him" Christ has made abundantly clear in His flesh as the only way of being saved from that other fear...of Gehenna.
> 
> I shall repeat for it is my joy...
> 
> Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
> 
> And this:
> 
> And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
> 
> And for this sight is given. And signs. To deliver from the "wrong" fear.
> 
> Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.
> 
> Who is chosen to just be a signal? (Even also a beacon?)
> 
> Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
> 
> What thing "caused" his knowing? What was working in his knowing of himself as the chiefest of sinners?
> 
> As to your second part it holds all merit if one finds any "marvelling" at ignorance:
> 
> I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.





> As to your second part it holds all merit if one finds any "marvelling" at ignorance:
> 
> I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.



Ignorance?? Please explain. 

You do understand WHY Paul was delivering the letter to this Church, right? Paul is astonished that they are turning away from the simple truth and believing a different idea, a different "Gospel". This is a letter to the church, not the sinner that has not found God. 

The following verses will make clear, a group of religious people had moved in among the Galatian Christians.

I ask you again why is it so important to give you warnings of deception if you are safe?


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> No. That is my answer to your question.


And it’s wrong!


----------



## madsam

Banjo Picker said:


> The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and if men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe some, they would show some consistency and honesty regarding the whole Word of God, Judas not only had a moral fall but sin caused it.


    You ever heard the Ole saying  , a lot about nothing..Brother you trying to fill some large shoes by telling people they can loose
there salvation.... be  all the wiser to tell people how to get it and let the good
Lord worry about the rest.


----------



## Spotlite

madsam said:


> You ever heard the Ole saying  , a lot about nothing..Brother you trying to fill some large shoes by telling people they can loose
> there salvation.... be  all the wiser to tell people how to get it and let the good
> Lord worry about the rest.





> be  all the wiser to tell people how to get it and let the good
> Lord worry about the rest.


I’d agree with this. I’m ok with Pastors doing their jobs of correction, etc in dealing with folks but us non Pastors……..your statement is accurate!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> Reading between the lines here but I don’t think it’s about Him wavering His promises. What they’re getting at is go past the teaching of denying ungodliness to those that have been taught and then deny it. Yes there’s scripture that says they will and have AFTER knowing the way of righteousness. And many depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.
> 
> It’s not about Him leaving or one playing in a sandbox of sins. He isn’t going to dwell in an unclean temple - period.
> 
> Not a “legalist” or other man made term here, but scripture says here’s your flesh - Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like………they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> And flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other.
> 
> Basically, you ain’t going to hold hands with the devil and God at the same time.
> 
> Of course Jesus is our Advocate if we sin, but He also told the lady to go and sin no more.
> 
> It looks like some are saying they’re covered so their “fleshly actions” isn’t considered sin anymore??


"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

If all those sin lists keep us from the Kingdom then none of us are ever gonna get in.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Paul is shocked that the Galatians are departing from the gospel he preached to them. 
Any idea what this "different" gospel was that wasn't really even a gospel?


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
> 
> If all those sin lists keep us from the Kingdom then none of us are ever gonna get in.



That’s why you call on the name of the Lord in repentance, it’s called a daily striving. No, there’s no “works” involved. We’re human, we goof up, but I find no place that says you can continue doing these things with a free pass since you were “saved”. The woman was told to go and sin no more, she was not told you’re good, you can keep doing these things .


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Paul is shocked that the Galatians are departing from the gospel he preached to them.
> Any idea what this "different" gospel was that wasn't really even a gospel?


I can tell you this - Peter didn’t preach a different Gospel than Paul did but many overlook what Peter preached to sinners and land strictly on what Paul had to say to the “church” in his letters - church, people that were already saved. 

A Pastor on the pulpit will give an overview of things that the church already knows, and cover every detail in a Bible study with a person they’re trying to bring in. Paul is preaching to the church. People are eliminating much of the Gospel based on what Paul preached to the church. 

You gotta put it ALL together. There’s not one single scripture that says what Peter preached is no longer valid.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> That’s why you call on the name of the Lord in repentance, it’s called a daily striving. No, there’s no “works” involved. We’re human, we goof up, but I find no place that says you can continue doing these things with a free pass since you were “saved”. The woman was told to go and sin no more, she was not told you’re good, you can keep doing these things .


Didn't Paul say that we were free to sin, but why would we want to? Something like that.
The way I interpret Paul is the yoke of sin was removed from us. We are no longer a slave to sin. It's not a license to sin.
Thus our sins no longer send us to He11 or eternal death.
Oh and those list of sins? The washing took care of those keeping us out of the Kingdom.

Many of the letters that Paul wrote to those Churches is they had returned to believing in Circumcision, thus the Gospel was of no use to them. Once you return to trying to get to Heaven by works, then that's the way you are required to get to Heaven.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> I can tell you this - Peter didn’t preach a different Gospel than Paul did but many overlook what Peter preached to sinners and land strictly on what Paul had to say to the “church” in his letters - church, people that were already saved.
> 
> A Pastor on the pulpit will give an overview of things that the church already knows, and cover every detail in a Bible study with a person they’re trying to bring in. Paul is preaching to the church. People are eliminating much of the Gospel based on what Paul preached to the church.
> 
> You gotta put it ALL together. There’s not one single scripture that says what Peter preached is no longer valid.



Maybe a quick view of Paul's revelation of the mystery/secret concerning what exactly the gospel is;
https://graceambassadors.com/mystery/what-is-the-mystery-revealed-to-paul


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Artfuldodger, post: 13459079, member: 85961"]Paul is shocked that the Galatians are departing from the gospel he preached to them.
Any idea what this "different" gospel was that wasn't really even a gospel?[/QUOTE]

Many Galatians who were saved and had "received the Spirit" who had "begun in the Spirit" who were "redeemed and justified by faith," and who were "sons" of God by being made free from sin Gal. 3:2-4; 3:13, 24; 4:4-7; 5:1-26,_ fell "from grace" and Christ became "of no effect" unto them_ Gal. 5:4, 5. They were "removed from him" and "from grace" so _once in grace, always in grace _is not biblical unless one stays in grace Gal. 1:6; 3:1-5; 5:1-9. They were plainly told that to go back under the law and into sins of the flesh, meant to "Frustrate [cause to fail, fail, nullify, make void] the grace of God" and that in such case they were not in grace and would reap corruption Gal. 2:21; 5:1-9; 6:7, 8. They were told that if they built again the things of sin that were "once destroyed" they were transgressors and sinners Gal. 2:17, 18. They were taught that true eternal security was by walking in the Spirit and not fulfilling the works of the flesh Gal. 5:16-26; 6:7, 8. Paul did not tell them that if they ever got in grace their responsibility as to sin was over. He accused them of falling from grace Gal. 5:4, so such must be possible.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Didn't Paul say that we were free to sin, but why would we want to? Something like that.
> The way I interpret Paul is the yoke of sin was removed from us. We are no longer a slave to sin. It's not a license to sin.
> Thus our sins no longer send us to He11 or eternal death.
> Oh and those list of sins? The washing took care of those keeping us out of the Kingdom.
> 
> Many of the letters that Paul wrote to those Churches is they had returned to believing in Circumcision, thus the Gospel was of no use to them. Once you return to trying to get to Heaven by works, then that's the way you are required to get to Heaven.


No we are not free to sin. If we were free of sin, we cannot be deceived into following after the lists of flesh - hence telling God “I hear your warning but it’s invalid”

Peter preached the Gospel to the circumcised, he didn’t preach circumcism. The Gospel of salvation preached doesn’t change.


----------



## Banjo Picker

madsam said:


> You ever heard the Ole saying  , a lot about nothing..Brother you trying to fill some large shoes by telling people they can loose
> there salvation.... be  all the wiser to tell people how to get it and let the good
> Lord worry about the rest.



And that is what the Lord is having me to do, I am telling that a lot of people and Christians are be deceived from men in the pulpit preaching once saved always saved and sins they commit after that don't matter when the Bible says different as it does for the same teaching one cannot lose eternal life when he can. If that be true what a lot of men are preaching, we can live any way we want and just wait, with no works to be done for it till the Lord calls us out and go on to Heaven.


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> But not so shocked as unrecoverable.
> 
> He came to understand very well what is consequent to "the sower soweth the word..." and how root is developed in revelation of another uprooting.
> 
> Now is the axe laid...
> 
> And as His Lord who taught Him he learned of patience and preference in forbearance...
> 
> And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.





> And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.



with that other doctrine of “pre…..”…….how  that happen?


----------



## furtaker

Spotlite said:


> Not a “legalist” or other man made term here, but scripture says here’s your flesh - Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like………they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says, "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

Those sins are works of the flesh and the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.

Those sins eliminate every single human being on Earth from entering the kingdom of God. That's why we need Jesus. The Spirit of a believer is sinless and inherits the kingdom, not this flesh we are born with. The flesh is wicked.

Let's just be honest here. If those sins prove who is saved and who is not, then nobody will make it. Which is exactly what Paul is saying. We need a Savior.

Have you ever done any of those things? I certainly have.


----------



## madsam

Banjo Picker said:


> And that is what the Lord is having me to do, I am telling that a lot of people and Christians are be deceived from men in the pulpit preaching once saved always saved and sins they commit after that don't matter when the Bible says different as it does for the same teaching one cannot lose eternal life when he can. If that be true what a lot of men are preaching, we can live any way we want and just wait, with no works to be done for it till the Lord calls us out and go on to Heaven.


You may need to revisit your conviction because according to Gods word you
are completely backwards on this ........Grace is given by God to sinners for
total forgiveness therefore you do not /can not loose your Eternal Life...When
you make statements that you can you are Usurping Gods will and power . 
There by establishing that you are all Knowing and rejecting what Jesus's 
death on the cross stands for........


----------



## furtaker

madsam said:


> You may need to revisit your conviction because according to Gods word you
> are completely backwards on this ........Grace is given by God to sinners for
> total forgiveness therefore you do not /can not loose your Eternal Life...When
> you make statements that you can you are Usurping Gods will and power .
> There by establishing that you are all Knowing and rejecting what Jesus's
> death on the cross stands for........


Yep. Grace vs works. The same thing Paul was dealing with in Galatians.


----------



## Spotlite

furtaker said:


> And 1 Corinthians 15:50 says, "I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."
> 
> Those sins are works of the flesh and the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
> 
> Those sins eliminate every single human being on Earth from entering the kingdom of God. That's why we need Jesus. The Spirit of a believer is sinless and inherits the kingdom, not this flesh we are born with. The flesh is wicked.
> 
> Let's just be honest here. If those sins prove who is saved and who is not, then nobody will make it. Which is exactly what Paul is saying. We need a Savior.
> 
> Have you ever done any of those things? I certainly have.


Most certainly have. I’m not knocking the “OSAS” doctrine nor the “you can lose eternal salvation doctrine”…….what I’m looking for from the “OSAS” group is if a man does these things after he’s considered “saved” what does he do, what happens? Are these things just over-looked, does he even need to repent or is it even considered sin for him? Saved by Grace didn’t answer the question, flesh will goof up and at least tell a lie. I don’t but the sone already forgiven because there’s too many warnings to stay away from it and folks were told to go and sin no more. I’m nit saying they’re losing their salvation if they commit these things, I just want to know how it’s viewed from God when they do. 

From the “you can lose eternal salvation” group it’s been in pretty obvious that a Savior is needed and repentance is needed.


----------



## Banjo Picker

madsam said:


> You may need to revisit your conviction because according to Gods word you
> are completely backwards on this ........Grace is given by God to sinners for
> total forgiveness therefore you do not /can not loose your Eternal Life...When
> you make statements that you can you are Usurping Gods will and power .
> There by establishing that you are all Knowing and rejecting what Jesus's
> death on the cross stands for........


Yes and Jesus also said to go and sin no more not only that he know that man could live with out sinning he was in the flesh as other men and was and example for us and the same God that he had to keep from it we also have.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> Most certainly have. I’m not knocking the “OSAS” doctrine nor the “you can lose eternal salvation doctrine”…….what I’m looking for from the “OSAS” group is if a man does these things after he’s considered “saved” what does he do, what happens? Are these things just over-looked, does he even need to repent or is it even considered sin for him? Saved by Grace didn’t answer the question, flesh will goof up and at least tell a lie. I don’t but the sone already forgiven because there’s too many warnings to stay away from it and folks were told to go and sin no more. I’m nit saying they’re losing their salvation if they commit these things, I just want to know how it’s viewed from God when they do.
> 
> From the “you can lose eternal salvation” group it’s been in pretty obvious that a Savior is needed and repentance is needed.


I'm confused, did Jesus accomplish the mission that he came to do as sent by his Father?
We could touch on receiving the Holy Spirit. Does he help or do? I remember a discussion years ago about such pertaining to a drunkard Christian that never is able to overcome, even with the Holy Spirit. I mean we could go on and on about it but probably never truly understand exactly what grace actually means.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm confused, did Jesus accomplish the mission he came to do as sent by his Father?
> We could touch on receiving the Holy Spirit. Does he help or do? I remember a discussion years ago about such pertaining to a drunkard Christian that never is able to overcome, even with the Holy Spirit. I mean we could go on and on about it but probably never truly understand exactly what grace actually means.


What are you confused about? Where is it ok to keep committing adultery? So my question is since we are still here on this planet in skin, what happens if we did? Is it just ok? No repentance, no I’m sorry, no nothing, just oh well Grace got me I see you tomorrow?

Never able to overcome? That’s calling Jesus a liar.

Grace isn’t a ticket to remain in sin. You gotta leave the side chick alone at some point - remember, you ain’t holding hands with the devil and God at the same time.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> Yes and Jesus also said to go and sin no more not only that he know that man could live with out sinning he was in the flesh as other men and was and example for us and the same God that he had to keep from it we also have.


Do you really know anyone who has can live without sinning? Think of all the lust, jealousy, covetousness, fibbing, hatred, anger, pride, not being humble, selfishness, greed, deceit, envy, arrogance, etc.

Remember what some of you are saying. That these sins will keep you out of the Kingdom. Yet you fail to read, "except you are washed."


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> What are you confused about? Where is it ok to keep committing adultery? So my question is since we are still here on this planet in skin, what happens if we did? Is it just ok? No repentance, no I’m sorry, no nothing, just oh well Grace got me I see you tomorrow?
> 
> Never able to overcome? That’s calling Jesus a liar.
> 
> Grace isn’t a ticket to remain in sin. You gotta leave the side chick alone at some point - remember, you ain’t holding hands with the devil and God at the same time.


Then a drunkard who tries everyday to overcome his addiction goes to He11 for his own weakness because he could not repent from that sin?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe we don't all fully understand what all sin is. It's not just adultery and murder. Lust is as bad as adultery. Who in the world can say they have never had a hint of lust in their heart?
Anger is the same as murder in respect to sin. Therefore Anger and Lust are equal sins to God. Perhaps not to man or society but to God they are sins.

The whole Old Testament Covenant was to prove this concept that man could not escape sin and thus needed salvation in the form of a Messiah. The Word was always with God. It was always God's plan.

As long as we are in the flesh, we will sin. Thus why Jesus did what he said he came to do.


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> Most certainly have. I’m not knocking the “OSAS” doctrine nor the “you can lose eternal salvation doctrine”…….what I’m looking for from the “OSAS” group is if a man does these things after he’s considered “saved” what does he do, what happens? Are these things just over-looked, does he even need to repent or is it even considered sin for him? Saved by Grace didn’t answer the question, flesh will goof up and at least tell a lie. I don’t but the sone already forgiven because there’s too many warnings to stay away from it and folks were told to go and sin no more. I’m nit saying they’re losing their salvation if they commit these things, I just want to know how it’s viewed from God when they do.
> 
> From the “you can lose eternal salvation” group it’s been in pretty obvious that a Savior is needed and repentance is needed.


When a person is born again they are in Christ, a part of His body. If that person sins, and we all do, it disrupts our fellowship with our Father. The only way for that fellowship to be restored is by repentance and confession. When we do that: 1John 1:9. I don’t know of one person in this thread( but I’m not about to read all the way back through all this hoorah to see) who has stated that there are no consequences for sin. Of course there are, but loss of salvation is *not *one of them. 
If Christ’s sacrifice isn’t sufficient to secure our salvation the first time, what would be the atoning sacrifice the second or tenth or hundredth time?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> What are you confused about? Where is it ok to keep committing adultery? So my question is since we are still here on this planet in skin, what happens if we did? Is it just ok? No repentance, no I’m sorry, no nothing, just oh well Grace got me I see you tomorrow?
> 
> Never able to overcome? That’s calling Jesus a liar.
> 
> Grace isn’t a ticket to remain in sin. You gotta leave the side chick alone at some point - remember, you ain’t holding hands with the devil and God at the same time.


I think you are putting words in our mouths and adding to the gospel. No OSAS person has said not to repent from that way of thinking. We should be showing the Fruit of the Holy Spirit.


----------



## madsam

Banjo Picker said:


> Yes and Jesus also said to go and sin no more not only that he know that man could live with out sinning he was in the flesh as other men and was and example for us and the same God that he had to keep from it we also have.


James 3:1(read)   seem like if I gonna try to preach I would learn what I preachin about.
Why if a new christian or someone who is searching for the word happens upon your rhetoric . They very easily could be mislead, especially when your using Gods word
to try and make your thoughts /ideologies truth.....the Biblical word for it 
is Heresy....


----------



## Artfuldodger

I like this preachers example of God's love for His children;

If I told my daughters that I loved them completely, and that no matter what they did, I would always love them, forgive them, and be willing to die for them, and if, after I told them this, one of my daughters looked at me and said, “So I can just go stick my hand in the blender and you will still love me?” I would look at her a little strangely and say, “Well … yes … if that’s really want you want to do, go ahead. But know that if you do that, it’s going to be extremely painful. I will, of course, pull your hand out of the blender and rush you to the hospital to stop the bleeding and rescue what I can of your hand. But no matter what, I will still love you and cherish you as my daughter.”

*This is what Paul means in Romans 6 when he responds with “God Forbid!” He is not saying, “No, you cannot!” but rather, “Why would you want to?” * 

https://redeeminggod.com/grace-is-free-you-can-sin-all-you-want/


----------



## Artfuldodger

After the sin list in 1 Corinthians that will keep you out of the Kingdom  is the verse about the washing. The next verse says;
 “Everything is permissible for me,” but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me,” but I will not be mastered by anything.


----------



## Spotlite

tell sackett said:


> When a person is born again they are in Christ, a part of His body. If that person sins, and we all do, it disrupts our fellowship with our Father. The only way for that fellowship to be restored is by repentance and confession. When we do that: 1John 1:9. I don’t know of one person in this thread( but I’m not about to read all the way back through all this hoorah to see) who has stated that there are no consequences for sin. Of course there are, but loss of salvation is *not *one of them.
> If Christ’s sacrifice isn’t sufficient to secure our salvation the first time, what would be the atoning sacrifice the second or tenth or hundredth time?


Now YOU are connecting to what I could not properly ask.

You may be right, no person has stated there are no consequences because I haven’t read the entire thread - but it appeared as if that’s what happens to the person that believes “OSAS” came across that way.


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> Now YOU are connecting to what I could not properly ask.
> 
> You may be right, no person has stated there are no consequences because I haven’t read the entire thread - but it appeared as if what happens to the person that message “OSAS” came across that way.



I’m not saying no one teaches that, some do, but it is unbiblical.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> I think you are putting words in our mouths and adding to the gospel. No OSAS person has said not to repent from that way of thinking. We should be showing the Fruit of the Holy Spirit.


No, I’m not, I’ve asked for answers and in all fairness I may have not been asking properly but I haven’t gotten a solid response until tell sackett in post 393. I’ve heard OSAS all my life and it’s always left a question of what do you do if you goof up because “Grace” has always been their answer. I’ve asked if sin even applied to them.

But I understand tell sackett.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Then a drunkard who tries everyday to overcome his addiction goes to He11 for his own weakness because he could not repent from that sin?


It’s not my place to say where they go, I’m just saying stating you can’t overcome something is calling Jesus a liar.


----------



## Banjo Picker

madsam said:


> James 3:1(read)   seem like if I gonna try to preach I would learn what I preachin about.
> Why if a new christian or someone who is searching for the word happens upon your rhetoric . They very easily could be mislead, especially when your using Gods word
> to try and make your thoughts /ideologies truth.....the Biblical word for it
> is Heresy....



This is as clear as I can make it like it or not, the soul of man never dies which you can say is eternal no end of time for it, but if the soul sins it goes to he11 for eternal, and if it don't sin it goes to Heaven and lives eternal. and I will tell you the same what about all the people you preach it to and it being wrong, and they end up going to he11. you have all the Scriptures That is posted about loosing eternal life, it and you say you believe the Word of God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> It’s not my place to say where they go, I’m just saying stating you can’t overcome something is calling Jesus a liar.


I would think though that if I try to not have lust in my heart and I know that it's wrong, and I constantly repent, and ask for forgiveness and oh wow, did you see that girl that just walked by?


----------



## Spotlite

@Artfuldodger  and @tell sackett there’s one more question I do have - what happens to the person that refuses to repent and restore that fellowship with the Father?


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Beware lest ye also, being led away, with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness but grow in grace, and in knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Pet. 3:17-18).


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> No, I’m not, I’ve asked for answers and in all fairness I may have not been asking properly but I haven’t gotten a solid response until tell sackett in post 393. I’ve heard OSAS all my life and it’s always left a question of what do you do if you goof up because “Grace” has always been their answer. I’ve asked if sin even applied to them.
> 
> But I understand tell sackett.


He did an excellent job explaining it. I was on a Religious Roller Coaster years ago about OSAS. I could actually show verses for both sides. Look at all the discussions on Paul vs James for instance.

As for as Christians and punishment for their sins, I've heard it told it was like stars in your crown so to speak. That's the way my Mom explained it. Others say there will be two different judgements, one for salvation and one for "stars."

I know a lot of folks, now dead and gone that were full of the hate and non-love of racism. Pretty good Christians by most other standards though. I would hope that God might consider that they were a sign of those times.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> @Artfuldodger  and @tell sackett there’s one more question I do have - what happens to the person that refuses to repent and restore that fellowship with the Father?


I heard that repenting is more about a change in one's heart more than actually overcoming. Good question, I don't have that answer. If my own child could never overcome a drug addiction yet tried rehab, God, therapy, isolation, etc. and never overcame, they would still be my child the day they died. I would have loved them until the end regardless of if they never overcame.
I would like to have the peace of mind about my child for this and that they still went to heaven and that same peace that a racist parent who never overcame still went to Heaven. I have no reason to believe otherwise at the present.

To start with, I in no way consider myself more righteous than either that racist parent or the drug addict child. The reason being is I haven't overcome my own sins yet and I could die tomorrow.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> I would think though that if I try to not have lust in my heart and I know that it's wrong, and I constantly repent, and ask for forgiveness and oh wow, did you see that girl that just walked by?


I struggle at the beach but………..I no longer take binoculars and get a kink in my neck and soar eyes from keeping my neck turned to the right while eyes are to the left behind dark shades. They’re there but I’m not giving them any more attention than I do a bird flying by.

Is a drunkard still a drunkard because he hit a swallow or two or sit in a bar for a couple rounds with friends? I’d say no. Is he a drunkard if he’s still bound to the yoke of sucking the bottom of the barrel dry every time he takes a drink and falling off the wagon out of control drinking? I’d say yes.

I don’t know exactly where “overcoming” lies within a man, I just know saying I can’t goes against scripture.


For years I looked for a rare breed of birds - red breasted pair a cheeks. I don’t do that anymore lol.


----------



## Banjo Picker

_"Know ye not that the unrighteous SHALL NOT inherit the kingdom of God?_ BE NOT DECEIVED: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, not thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God" 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 1:29-32. Unconditional securityites admit that saved men, even preachers, have failed God and have gone back to a life of sin in the flesh. Then how do they expect to see such men go to Heaven if they die in this state? They had better "BE NOT DECEIVED" and quit such unscriptural teaching.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> I heard that repenting is more about a change in one's heart more than actually overcoming. Good question, I don't have that answer. If my own child could never overcome a drug addiction yet tried rehab, God, therapy, isolation, etc. and never overcame, they would still be my child the day they died. I would have loved them until the end regardless of if they never overcame.
> I would like to have the peace of mind about my child for this and that they still went to heaven and that same peace that a racist parent who never overcame still went to Heaven. I have no reason to believe otherwise at the present.


I was taught that true repentance was more than saying I’m sorry - it involved turning around.


----------



## madsam

Banjo Picker said:


> This is as clear as I can make it like it or not, the soul of man never dies which you can say is eternal no end of time for it, but if the soul sins it goes to **** for eternal, and if it don't sin it goes to Heaven and lives eternal. and I will tell you the same what about all the people you preach it to and it being wrong, and they end up going to he11. you have all the Scriptures That is posted about loosing eternal life, it and you say you believe the Word of God.


Your missing it , your missing it... ever heard of Stand Down in the military... Thats what you say when you see a results others can't.  I am not a Bible Scholar or 
a self professed one either, but I have been in the word along time. I don't preach
to others but I know when the Bible is being misinterpreted and you my friend 
need to stand down.  You are going to more damage than good .. Especially to
new believers..  This is my last post , on this subject .. It does bother me to think 
that another Christian may read your post and drink the Kool-Aid.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> I was taught that true repentance was more than saying I’m sorry - it involved turning around.


Interesting, I've never been taught that. I was taught that I could never overcome sin. I'm glad that you were able to do it. My question is since you were able to overcome sin, why did you need Jesus to die on a cross for you sins since you were able to save yourself?


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting, I've never been taught that. I was taught that I could never overcome sin. I'm glad that you were able to do it. My question is since you were able to overcome sin, why did you need Jesus to die on a cross for you sins since you were able to save yourself?


No I wasn’t taught I could overcome anything with Jesus. Without Jesus I can’t. That’s why I said the man who says he can’t overcome is calling Jesus a liar.


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## Artfuldodger

I guess one could say if they are able to overcome all sin once the Holy Spirit moves in. That doesn't take away that we still needed Jesus to die on a Cross. 
The Holy Spirit part is like a bonus but I don't see it as a replacement for Christ's death.


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## Banjo Picker

Artfuldodger said:


> Then a drunkard who tries everyday to overcome his addiction goes to He11 for his own weakness because he could not repent from that sin?



Do you not think that the drunkard had love, ones that love him and tried to help him, I would my Love one matter fact been there myself, sometimes it don't matter how much you do to help them if they don't want to help themselves there's not much you can do but pray for them that God take care of them, and that they make things right with God.


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## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> No I wasn’t taught I could overcome anything with Jesus. Without Jesus I can’t. That’s why I said the man who says he can’t overcome is calling Jesus a liar.


Why didn't Jesus just come and give us His Spirit without dying on a cross? If it's Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit that allows us to overcome, why did he need to die? If it's about overcoming sin?


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## Artfuldodger

I actually thought that the purpose of Jesus was to die on a cross for our sins more than just a trip to the earth to drop of his Spirit to help us overcome the sins that he didn't die for.


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## NE GA Pappy

when someone can explain Hebrews 6:4-6 to me, and convince me that Paul didn't say that you could fall from grace, I will then start to believe in OSAS..

Hebrews 6:4-6
…4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.…


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## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> Do you not think that the drunkard had love, ones that love him and tried to help him, I would my Love one matter fact been there myself, sometimes it don't matter how much you do to help them if they don't want to help themselves there's not much you can do but pray for them that God take care of them, and that they make things right with God.


Do you think that every Christian drunkard that died having never overcome that sin goes to He11?


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## Banjo Picker

Artfuldodger said:


> Why didn't Jesus just come and give us His Spirit without dying on a cross? If it's Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit that allows us to overcome, why did he need to die? If it's about overcoming sin?



Art you need to go over to the thread I posted on DID YOU KNOW and read the last post there. and maybe that will help you understand about the God, and Son Jesus and the Holy Ghost, as how they work together.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you think that every Christian drunkard that died having never overcome that sin goes to He11?


According to Gods Word yes. Did you not read post #409 I just post here that's what it says.


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> @Artfuldodger  and @tell sackett there’s one more question I do have - what happens to the person that refuses to repent and restore that fellowship with the Father?



First of all I thank you for the kind words, but believe me, it isn't me that has the answer.
I can't think of many things more awful for a Christian than to leave this world with unconfessed sin in their life. Charles Spurgeon used to say we need to keep short accounts with God; in other words when the Spirit speaks into my heart about some sin the wisest thing to do is confess it right then. Do not wait, do not rebel. 

I know others don't agree with this interpretation, but I believe this is what John is referring to in 1Jo.5 about a sin unto death. Think Annanias and Saphirra or the members of the church in Corinth (1Cor.11). God cut their physical lives off because of their sin. It is a solemn thing to think of standing before my Savior at the judgment seat knowing I left this world with unrepented of, unconfessed sin in my life.


----------



## tell sackett

If the condition for heaven is sinless perfection then Jesus will be the only man there. If that is the standard we are all doomed to h---.


----------



## Banjo Picker

madsam said:


> Your missing it , your missing it... ever heard of Stand Down in the military... Thats what you say when you see a results others can't.  I am not a Bible Scholar or
> a self professed one either, but I have been in the word along time. I don't preach
> to others but I know when the Bible is being misinterpreted and you my friend
> need to stand down.  You are going to more damage than good .. Especially to
> new believers..  This is my last post , on this subject .. It does bother me to think
> that another Christian may read your post and drink the Kool-Aid.



God's true Word is Great and I am glad some people still love it, don't think anyone is making you read any of this post, or then it might be God tying to help you. you could read other on hear may not be as good tasting either as you think about this one.


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Why didn't Jesus just come and give us His Spirit without dying on a cross? If it's Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit that allows us to overcome, why did he need to die? If it's about overcoming sin?


Without the shedding of blood there’s no remission?

Through that blood is your way to the Father, that blood covers your sin. That’s why He’s our Advocate.


----------



## Spotlite

tell sackett said:


> If the condition for heaven is sinless perfection then Jesus will be the only man there. If that is the standard we are all doomed to h---.


I don’t think it’s that ^^ I think you nailed it with that restoration of fellowship with the Father through repentance.


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> I don’t think it’s that ^^ I think you nailed it with that restoration of fellowship with the Father through repentance.


Some seem to think it is.


----------



## formula1

1 John 2
1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

We have an advocate! 

Peter denied Jesus 3 times. So I guess he wasn’t qualified to preach at Pentecost.

That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit!


----------



## tell sackett

formula1 said:


> 1 John 2
> 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
> 
> We have an advocate!
> 
> Peter denied Jesus 3 times. So I guess he wasn’t qualified to preach at Pentecost.
> 
> That which is born of flesh is flesh and that which is born of Spirit is Spirit!


Preach it brother!


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> Nobody will be able to prove God ungracious...He's determined to show that through Christ.


It has nothing to do with God being ungracious. We’ve established there needs to be repentance to restore that fellowship with the Father - so what happens to those that refused to repent?


----------



## formula1

tell sackett said:


> Preach it brother!



I would say all born again believers know immediately or almost immediately when they sin. God is in you via the Holy Spirit constantly bringing it to our attention. You cannot outdo the one true God who loves and works to restore you constantly. Hopefully, most of us have figured out who to run to!

What if Adam and Eve had run to Him when they sinned!


----------



## furtaker

Spotlite said:


> Most certainly have. I’m not knocking the “OSAS” doctrine nor the “you can lose eternal salvation doctrine”…….what I’m looking for from the “OSAS” group is if a man does these things after he’s considered “saved” what does he do, what happens? Are these things just over-looked, does he even need to repent or is it even considered sin for him? Saved by Grace didn’t answer the question, flesh will goof up and at least tell a lie. I don’t but the sone already forgiven because there’s too many warnings to stay away from it and folks were told to go and sin no more. I’m nit saying they’re losing their salvation if they commit these things, I just want to know how it’s viewed from God when they do.
> 
> From the “you can lose eternal salvation” group it’s been in pretty obvious that a Savior is needed and repentance is needed.


Yes, believers can sin. And unfortunately they can sin a bunch...just as much as a lost man. Their flesh didn't disappear when they believed in Christ. That's why there are so many commands in Scripture for believers to live godly lives. Those warnings wouldn't exist if it was automatic.

Consequences for sin in a believer's life is a real thing.  I can't live in sin and get away with it.  It will eventually catch up with me.  According to Scripture, God disciplines his children just like a good earthly father does.  But he won't disown me because I have his word on it. He said I have everlasting, unending life. The believer in Christ goes to heaven no matter what because his sins are paid.

Gratefulness for the free gift of eternal life is a great motivator to live a godly life. Fear of h ell isn't.

You said from the "you can lose your salvation" group it's pretty obvious that a Savior is needed?  I don't see it.  Why is a Savior needed if you keep your salvation by not sinning and living a good life? Who needs Jesus if that's the case? You're your own Savior.


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> According to Gods Word yes. Did you not read post #409 I just post here that's what it says.


You ever coveted something?  That's in the list too.  It's not just the "bad" sins like drunkenness. You're no better than anybody else.  Read post #383.


----------



## Banjo Picker

furtaker said:


> You ever coveted something?  That's in the list too.  It's not just the "bad" sins like drunkenness. You're no better than anybody else.  Read post #383.



Didn't every say I was better than anybody else, If I die with sin in my life, I will go to He11 even though I been saved, and you will to according to the Word of God, If, he spared not the angels which were in Heaven for sinning what makes me or you or anybody else better? nothing! That's God's Word and it cannot be change.


----------



## Ruger#3

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

My salvation is secure through my belief in Jesus. It is through Gods grace and forgivenes.

I confess my sins to build a closer relationship God but my salvation is sealed.

“And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.”



.


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> Didn't every say I was better than anybody else, If I die with sin in my life, I will go to He11 even though I been saved, and you will to according to the Word of God, If, he spared not the angels which were in Heaven for sinning what makes me or you or anybody else better? nothing! That's God's Word and it cannot be change.


How do you go to he11 if you've been saved? Doesn't that mean you've never been saved in the first place if you end up in he11? What were you saved from?

I go to heaven when I die because my sins are paid by Jesus and my faith is in him. Your faith is in your works and you hope you will be good enough.

We all sin every day and any of us could die any  minute. What do you do, live your life in constant fear of he11? Kinda like, "he loves me...he loves me not...he loves me..."


----------



## furtaker

Ruger#3 said:


> My salvation is secure through my belief in Jesus. It is through Gods grace and forgivenes.


Yep. Grace is a wonderful thing and a great motivator to live a life pleasing to the Lord.


----------



## formula1

furtaker said:


> Yep. Grace is a wonderful thing and a great motivator to live a life pleasing to the Lord.


And if grace does not cause you to motivated by Gods love for you, you will not be motivated by fear!  Fear is just another lie of Satan!


----------



## Spotlite

furtaker said:


> Yes, believers can sin. And unfortunately they can sin a bunch...just as much as a lost man. Their flesh didn't disappear when they believed in Christ. That's why there are so many commands in Scripture for believers to live godly lives. Those warnings wouldn't exist if it was automatic.
> 
> Consequences for sin in a believer's life is a real thing.  I can't live in sin and get away with it.  It will eventually catch up with me.  According to Scripture, God disciplines his children just like a good earthly father does.  But he won't disown me because I have his word on it. He said I have everlasting, unending life. The believer in Christ goes to heaven no matter what because his sins are paid.
> 
> Gratefulness for the free gift of eternal life is a great motivator to live a godly life. Fear of h ell isn't.
> 
> You said from the "you can lose your salvation" group it's pretty obvious that a Savior is needed?  I don't see it.  Why is a Savior needed if you keep your salvation by not sinning and living a good life? Who needs Jesus if that's the case? You're your own Savior.



From my perspective of the “you can lose your salvation” group is a Savior is needed because we do sin. That Advocate in Jesus is a must have.

I think I understand the OSAS group more because at first it appeared that after salvation - we got it made, don’t need an Advocate.

It appears now that both groups do acknowledge the need to take their sins to Jesus.

My only question now pertains to those that slip up here and there and become numb to that and no longer see a need to restore that fellowship with Father - what happens to them as far as salvation is concerned? They fit the bill of those that returned AFTER coming to the knowledge of Jesus.


----------



## Spotlite

furtaker said:


> How do you go to he11 if you've been saved? Doesn't that mean you've never been saved in the first place if you end up in he11? What were you saved from?
> 
> I go to heaven when I die because my sins are paid by Jesus and my faith is in him. Your faith is in your works and you hope you will be good enough.
> 
> We all sin every day and any of us could die any  minute. What do you do, live your life in constant fear of he11? Kinda like, "he loves me...he loves me not...he loves me..."


Ahh good question and that’s where I’m coming from with my question in post 440.


----------



## furtaker

formula1 said:


> And if grace does not cause you to motivated by Gods love for you, you will not be motivated by fear!  Fear is just another lie of Satan!


Yeah, I've never known fear to motivate anyone for anything worthwhile.


----------



## Banjo Picker

furtaker said:


> How do you go to he11 if you've been saved? Doesn't that mean you've never been saved in the first place if you end up in he11? What were you saved from?
> 
> I go to heaven when I die because my sins are paid by Jesus and my faith is in him. Your faith is in your works and you hope you will be good enough.
> 
> We all sin every day and any of us could die any  minute. What do you do, live your life in constant fear of he11? Kinda like, "he loves me...he loves me not...he loves me..."


 yep my works are by my faith, because faith without works is dead.


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> when someone can explain Hebrews 6:4-6 to me, and convince me that Paul didn't say that you could fall from grace, I will then start to believe in OSAS..
> 
> Hebrews 6:4-6
> …4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age— 6and then have fallen away—to be restored to repentance, because they themselves are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.…


Maybe one can take himself out by falling away from Jesus. Meaning he just quit believing.
Sad that he can't repent and put himself back in.

Concerning the passage, it was written to Jewish Christians, many who are continuously warned not to fall away from the gospel and revert back to Judaism. To do so would crucify Jesus all over again. Wouldn't it be shameful to Jesus for Jews to revert back to Judaism after he came and died on a cross for their sins?

Reading this;
Because Christianity did grow out of Judaism, it was a more subtle temptation for a Jewish Christian to slip back into Judaism than it was for a formerly pagan Christian to go back to his pagan ways. “Part of the problem facing the Hebrews was the superficial similarity between the elementary tenets of Christianity and those of Judaism, which made it possible for Christian Jews to think they could hold on to both.” (Guthrie)
Of course, these Jewish Christians did not want to abandon _religion_, but they did want to make it less distinctively _Christian_. Therefore, they went back to this common ground to avoid persecution. Living in this comfortable common ground, one did not stick out so much. A Jew and a Christian together could say, “Let’s repent, let’s have faith, let’s perform ceremonial washings,” and so forth. This was a subtle yet certain denial of Jesus.


----------



## formula1

Spotlite said:


> My only question now pertains to those that slip up here and there and become numb to that and no longer see a need to restore that fellowship with Father - what happens to them as far as salvation is concerned? They fit the bill of those that returned AFTER coming to the knowledge of Jesus.



When one has tasted of the heavenly gifts, of the indwelling Spirit, of the depths of grace, love, and forgiveness, can one turn their back?

It certainly is possible! Those who reject the Spirit reject life itself!  Truly sad to think of.

This is the description of Lucifer, who would defy all of the heavenly gifts thinking he could attain higher authority.


----------



## Spotlite

furtaker said:


> How do you go to he11 if you've been saved? Doesn't that mean you've never been saved in the first place if you end up in he11? What were you saved from?
> 
> I go to heaven when I die because my sins are paid by Jesus and my faith is in him. Your faith is in your works and you hope you will be good enough.
> 
> We all sin every day and any of us could die any  minute. What do you do, live your life in constant fear of he11? Kinda like, "he loves me...he loves me not...he loves me..."





> We all sin every day and any of us could die any  minute. What do you do, live your life in constant fear of he11? Kinda like, "he loves me...he loves me not...he loves me..."



I look at things differently so this is just my opinion; no, it’s not living in fear, it’s living in  “respecting the Lord”. 

Because I know the sheriff doesn’t mean I can run 100 through town every weekend and keep asking him to help me out with it. It means if I goof up I can call and say hey man, I made a mistake.


----------



## furtaker

Funny, I've always heard the argument, "Well, if you tell people that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they'll be saved forever no matter what, they'll just go out and live in sin and live like the devil himself!" 

That's not true in my case.  When I learned that salvation is a free gift and all I have to do is believe in Jesus for it, and I can live a rotten life and still go to heaven, that message had the opposite effect on me.  After understanding it, I wanted to go to church more often, study the Word more often, and tell people about Jesus more often.  What better news is there than I go to heaven no matter what because Jesus paid it all?  No works needed from me. What a great motivator to live a thankful life.

I'm not perfect by any means but I have no desire to just go out and live like a wild man because I'm going to heaven no matter what.  Why should I? Sin has consequences and why disappoint my family and my Savior who gave me the free gift of eternal life?  But if I do go out and live like the devil, I still go to heaven because I am saved by grace. But I don't want to.

Many people I know personally who believe in eternal security and salvation by faith alone seem to live a more godly life than many who think you can lose your salvation by sinning.  Funny how that works.


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> yep my works are by my faith, because faith without works is dead.


Yep, it's dead to other believers because it's not working.  Read the context of James 2.

So, are you saved by faith or works?  Seems that the Apostle Paul said you can't have it both ways.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Maybe we are talking about two different things. One is salvation lost to a Christian who stops believing and the other being a Christian who looses salvation from sin.


----------



## Spotlite

formula1 said:


> When one has tasted of the heavenly gifts, of the indwelling Spirit, of the depths of grace, love, and forgiveness, can one turn their back?
> 
> It certainly is possible! Those who reject the Spirit reject life itself!  Truly sad to think of.
> 
> This is the description of Lucifer, who would defy all of the heavenly gifts thinking he could attain higher authority.


There’s scripture that says there are those that did. Yes I agree, it’s sad. I know few that used to preach, preached 25 years and walk away. Those are the folks I’m asking about. 

“Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;”

“For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”

“But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

You cannot know the way of righteousness if you’re still unrighteous?


----------



## Spotlite

furtaker said:


> Funny, I've always heard the argument, "Well, if you tell people that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they'll be saved forever no matter what, they'll just go out and live in sin and live like the devil himself!"
> 
> That's not true in my case.  When I learned that salvation is a free gift and all I have to do is believe in Jesus for it, and I can live a rotten life and still go to heaven, that message had the opposite effect on me.  After understanding it, I wanted to go to church more often, study the Word more often, and tell people about Jesus more often.  What better news is there than I go to heaven no matter what because Jesus paid it all?  No works needed from me. What a great motivator to live a thankful life.
> 
> I'm not perfect by any means but I have no desire to just go out and live like a wild man because I'm going to heaven no matter what.  Why should I? Sin has consequences and why disappoint my family and my Savior who gave me the free gift of eternal life?  But if I do go out and live like the devil, I still go to heaven because I am saved by grace. But I don't want to.
> 
> Many people I know personally who believe in eternal security and salvation by faith alone seem to live a more godly life than many who think you can lose your salvation by sinning.  Funny how that works.





furtaker said:


> Funny, I've always heard the argument, "Well, if you tell people that all they have to do is believe in Jesus and they'll be saved forever no matter what, they'll just go out and live in sin and live like the devil himself!"
> 
> That's not true in my case.  When I learned that salvation is a free gift and all I have to do is believe in Jesus for it, and I can live a rotten life and still go to heaven, that message had the opposite effect on me..


Yes! That’s exactly what’s thought. Not saying it’s a correct thought but that’s what’s said.

I see eye to eye with on this, though.


----------



## furtaker

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe we are talking about two different things. One is salvation lost to a Christian who stops believing and the other being a Christian who looses salvation from sin.


What difference would that make? You lose it either way.

Kinda like Southern Baptists who say, "Bill lived a bad life so he was never really saved." And Pentecostal Holiness who say, "Bill lived a bad life and lost his salvation."

Is one better than the other?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spotlite said:


> There’s scripture that says there are those that did. Yes I agree, it’s sad. I know few that used to preach, preached 25 years and walk away. Those are the folks I’m asking about.
> 
> “Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;”
> 
> “For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.”
> 
> “But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”
> 
> You cannot know the way of righteousness if you’re still unrighteous?


Plus there was the group in Romans 1 that knew God yet exchanged the worship of God for that of idols.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

furtaker said:


> What difference would that make? You lose it either way.
> 
> Kinda like Southern Baptists who say, "Bill lived a bad life so he was never really saved." And Pentecostal Holiness who say, "Bill lived a bad life and lost his salvation."
> 
> Is one better than the other?



most SBC attendees I know would say... I know ole Bill lived a bad life...It's a good thing he got saved when he was 8


----------



## formula1

Jesus Christ is our righteousness!  We have to reject Him to lose it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

furtaker said:


> What difference would that make? You lose it either way.
> 
> Kinda like Southern Baptists who say, "Bill lived a bad life so he was never really saved." And Pentecostal Holiness who say, "Bill lived a bad life and lost his salvation."
> 
> Is one better than the other?


Well one way was the believer stopped believing and thus lost his salvation. The other way is he sinned his way back to loosing his salvation. Maybe scripture is telling us that one can revert back to worshiping idols like in Romans 1 and loose salvation but one can't sin and loose salvation.
Not unless Jesus died on a Cross so that we can worship idols. In that way, maybe he didn't die for every sin.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I think even though he died for all sins, you have to believe that enough to worship God. You can't say I believe God sent his son who died on a cross for my sins but I'm still gonna worship idols of animals.
I don't think the removal of the yoke of sin allows that.

In that same tone, I don't think that the Cross allows one to revert back to Judaism. That would be like crucifying Jesus all over again.

Which is worse to fall away from the gospel and revert back to Judaism or fall away and worship idols?


----------



## formula1

NE GA Pappy said:


> most SBC attendees I know would say... I know ole Bill lived a bad life...It's a good thing he got saved when he was 8



That was funny I’ll admit. But no works will stand except for the righteousness of Christ.

2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.


----------



## furtaker

NE GA Pappy said:


> most SBC attendees I know would say... I know ole Bill lived a bad life...It's a good thing he got saved when he was 8


You know different Baptists than I do. Around here they would say he wasn't "really" saved. At least a lot of them would.


----------



## furtaker

Artfuldodger said:


> Well one way was the believer stopped believing and thus lost his salvation. The other way is he sinned his way back to loosing his salvation. Maybe scripture is telling us that one can revert back to worshiping idols like in Romans 1 and loose salvation but one can't sin and loose salvation.
> Not unless Jesus died on a Cross so that we can worship idols. In that way, maybe he didn't die for every sin.


You have eternal life the instant you believe in Jesus. That is, according to Jesus you do. It's up to us to believe the message or not.


----------



## formula1

furtaker said:


> You have eternal life the instant you believe in Jesus. That is, according to Jesus you do. It's up to us to believe the message or not.


I agree with this! Yet I do think that word is more akin to trust! Trust has a far deeper meaning!

It’s more like Revelation 12:11. I’ll let you read it!


----------



## NE GA Pappy

furtaker said:


> You have eternal life the instant you believe in Jesus. That is, according to Jesus you do. It's up to us to believe the message or not.



you have eternal life the instant you are conceived.  You will spend eternity with Jesus when you are saved.  You will spend eternity in the hot spot if you aren't.


----------



## furtaker

formula1 said:


> I agree with this! Yet I do think that word is more akin to trust! Trust has a far deeper meaning!
> 
> It’s more like Revelation 12:11. I’ll let you read it!


Well, when I believe something, I trust it to be true.

The book of John was written to tell people how to have eternal life and "believe" is the vastly predominant word he used.


----------



## Ruger#3

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.


----------



## furtaker

NE GA Pappy said:


> you have eternal life the instant you are conceived.  You will spend eternity with Jesus when you are saved.  You will spend eternity in the hot spot if you aren't.


The hot spot is not life. It's death. According to Jesus in the book of John and John in the book of Revelation.

But yes, everyone will exist forever in one place or the other.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

furtaker said:


> The hot spot is not life. It's death. According to Jesus in the book of John and John in the book of Revelation.
> 
> But yes, everyone will exist forever in one place or the other.



yeah... existence is a better word. 

and the Bible does teach it is eternal death...  For the wages of sin is death...


----------



## formula1

furtaker said:


> Well, when I believe something, I trust it to be true.
> 
> The book of John was written to tell people how to have eternal life and "believe" is the vastly predominant word he used.



I don’t disagree. There is also much insight in many other places in John and more in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John plus Revelation, all put to paper by John described as the disciple whom Jesus loved. He in fact was the best source of the words of salvation. God bless!


----------



## formula1

NE GA Pappy said:


> yeah... existence is a better word.
> 
> and the Bible does teach it is eternal death...  For the wages of sin is death...



… but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord!


----------



## furtaker

formula1 said:


> I don’t disagree. There is also much insight in many other places in John and more in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John plus Revelation, all put to paper by John described as the disciple whom Jesus loved. He in fact was the best source of the words of salvation. God bless!


John is my favorite writer of Scripture. Even though it's all God-breathed, I just love the way he worded things.


----------



## Artfuldodger

furtaker said:


> You have eternal life the instant you believe in Jesus. That is, according to Jesus you do. It's up to us to believe the message or not.


Romans 1:25
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.


----------



## gemcgrew

Banjo Picker said:


> And it’s wrong!


It has to be wrong in the homocentric mind, where there is no freedom to see rightly.


----------



## formula1

Once I was a stone until, at the behest of another, I became a new creation!  And I am in awe of Him!


----------



## Spotlite

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 1:25
> 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is forever worthy of praise! Amen.


And………the Church of Sardis heard this -

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

I got no poetry or slogans about losing salvation, not truly saved, or eternal salvation, etc.

When I read everything concerning salvation and not eliminate any of it……..

1. eternal salvation is promised,
2. Our Advocate above is saying He will not blot out the names of the overcomer.
3. He tells the church to hold fast and repent,
4. He is saying there are those that have defiled their garments……….that eliminates not being truly saved; their names can’t be in the Book of Life with a fake / incomplete salvation.

The answer to the question no one would ever answer - what happens to those that refuse to repent? ……..is in scripture above.


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> There is a word that has gone "through the earth" and each man will know whether it has gone through his "earth" as it still rings as such things spiritual never stop ringing once spoken of truth in spirit...
> 
> Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
> 
> You ask:  what happens to those that refuse to repent? ……..is in scripture above.
> 
> What do you want to KNOW?
> 
> And do you really?
> 
> Want to KNOW IT?
> 
> It's there for any who think they can handle the knowing of it.


I appreciate the poetic approach lol, (sarcasm) but yes the answer is in scripture, always has been. 

It’s just ironic that “eternal salvation” regardless is where the hat hangs until scripture is shared and now “repentance” becomes important. It isn’t that bad Bob wasn’t truly saved, bad Bob refused to repent and defiled his garment - that’s scripture, not ideology. His name is blotted out.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I wonder why the group in Romans 1 that exchanged the truth for a lie were turned over to a reprobate mind but the group that worshiped the Golden Calf were allowed to repent? Of  course many did not repent and were later killed by man and God.

Psalm 106:19-21
At Horeb they made a calf and worshiped a molten image. 20They exchanged their Glory for the image of a grass-eating ox.
1They forgot God their Savior, who did great things in Egypt,

And what group was that above passage addressing, Israel?

I can't picture God letting someone "fall away" without returning. Plus we probably all have a different idea on what "falling away" means. Is it returning to idol worship? Returning to Judaism? Returning to a works based salvation idea? 
Or is it not having a personal relationship with Jesus? Can one repent from any without causing Jesus to be crucified again? Can one repent in the future?


----------



## gordon 2

The differing views of salvation depend on the Christian sects and faiths mostly. It would be interesting to find out if those different views shape the social behaviors differently. Could the different cultural values of geographic areas be influenced by differences regards prevailing views of salvation?

Or, does my view of salvation that is also shared by the majority in my community have a bearing on what my community life actually is in the here and now? Are the cultural values somehow shaped by the views we have regards salvation intertwined with different understandings of man's spiritual nature as well or in general?

If our understanding was that our salvific views shape society at a profound level, might the society viewed from the expectations ( hopes) from Christian values, perhaps be a possible judge of the truths of our understandings regards what it means to be saved, or be intimate by Eternal life?

Could we define salvation by its fruits instead of from the many bifurcations  due our history? I don't know, really. Maybe, maybe not.


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> And………the Church of Sardis heard this -
> 
> Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
> 
> Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
> 
> He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
> 
> I got no poetry or slogans about losing salvation, not truly saved, or eternal salvation, etc.
> 
> When I read everything concerning salvation and not eliminate any of it……..
> 
> 1. eternal salvation is promised,
> 2. Our Advocate above is saying He will not blot out the names of the overcomer.
> 3. He tells the church to hold fast and repent,
> 4. He is saying there are those that have defiled their garments……….that eliminates not being truly saved; their names can’t be in the Book of Life with a fake / incomplete salvation.
> 
> The answer to the question no one would ever answer - what happens to those that refuse to repent? ……..is in scripture above.



Let's think about this a minute. A question comes to mind: Is every person in every church born again? Is every person on the church roll born again? At the church that I pastor, the only one I can say with certainty is born again is me. It's a rare Sunday that I don't bring out everyone's need of a Savior because I don't know.

A couple of passages of Scripture come to mind:
1) a parable of four different types of soil.
2) in 1 Jo.2:18ff John writes of the antichrists(the gnostics) that "*they went out from us because they were not of us."* These antichrists had their beginnings in the church.

I have zero poetic skills, but Dr. Adrian Rogers used to say this "The faith that fizzles was faulty from the first."

Speaking of gnosticism, it's a very attractive heresy. It teaches that I can be my own god, I can save myself. There's a great appeal to the pride of man in that. It's still alive and well today.


----------



## Spotlite

tell sackett said:


> Let's think about this a minute. A question comes to mind: Is every person in every church born again? Is every person on the church roll born again? At the church that I pastor, the only one I can say with certainty is born again is me. It's a rare Sunday that I don't bring out everyone's need of a Savior because I don't know.
> 
> A couple of passages of Scripture come to mind:
> 1) a parable of four different types of soil.
> 2) in 1 Jo.2:18ff John writes of the antichrists(the gnostics) that "*they went out from us because they were not of us."* These antichrists had their beginnings in the church.
> 
> I have zero poetic skills, but Dr. Adrian Rogers used to say this "The faith that fizzles was faulty from the first."
> 
> Speaking of gnosticism, it's a very attractive heresy. It teaches that I can be my own god, I can save myself. There's a great appeal to the pride of man in that. It's still alive and well today.


I don’t believe every person in every church is born again - we know there’ll be those that all these things in His name that He’ll say depart from me, I never knew you. That’s not what not being truly saved is. Truly / Not Truly saved doesn’t exist. It’s like being pregnant, either you are, or you’re not.

In the passage I used these are those that let their garnets get defiled and those He says “be an overcomer” and I will NOT blot out your name from the Book of Life. That’s not the only passage that speaks of those that “know God” (have a relationship) and departed from the right way. You can’t depart anything you’re not part of.

I’m familiar with a lot of man made descriptive terms and they’re all biased to “intelligently express” themselves  - but teaching repentance is not saving yourself.

You said it yourself, you gotta restore that fellowship with the Father.

I’m reminded of the parable of the 10 Virgins - 5 foolish that let their oil run out, and 5 wise.

Edited to add: I don’t know who’s saved and who isn’t, I know who claims to be. Of those that claim to be, if they start doing things they shouldn’t and eventually get too numb to have conviction and stop restoring that fellowship with the Father - those are the ones I was asking about. Some say they weren’t truly saved. That’s not Biblical, Gods work isn’t half hearted. Scripture disagrees with them and says they were in the right way, they did let their garnet get defiled. Those that overcome and don’t let their garmet get defiled - He’s not blotting out their name. There’s no need to mention blotting out a name if it can’t be done.


----------



## tell sackett

Did all those at Sardis (and in many churches today) have a true profession? Many say they are born again and they do all the "church stuff", but they don't have a relationship. They have no root. 

There's much debate about the book of life. You're right, if it is a book of the redeemed, then no name could be blotted out or else Jesus was wrong. Some scholars believe it is a book of all mankind and/or a book of all those for whom Christ died. Notice it doesn't say that any were blotted out.

Our garments here on earth do get defiled, but the but the white garment that we shall receive cannot and will not be defiled. 



Spotlite said:


> I don’t believe every person in every church is born again - we know there’ll be those that all these things in His name that He’ll say depart from me, I never knew you. That’s not what not being truly saved is. Truly / Not Truly saved doesn’t exist. It’s like being pregnant, either you are, or you’re not.
> 
> In the passage I used these are those that let their garnets get defiled and those He says “be an overcomer” and I will NOT blot out your name from the Book of Life. That’s not the only passage that speaks of those that “know God” (have a relationship) and departed from the right way. You can’t depart anything you’re not part of.
> 
> I’m familiar with a lot of man made descriptive terms and they’re all biased to “intelligently express” themselves  - but teaching repentance is not saving yourself.
> 
> You said it yourself, you gotta restore that fellowship with the Father.
> 
> I’m reminded of the parable of the 10 Virgins - 5 foolish that let their oil run out, and 5 wise.
> 
> Edited to add: I don’t know who’s saved and who isn’t, I know who claims to be. Of those that claim to be, if they start doing things they shouldn’t and eventually get too numb to have conviction and stop restoring that fellowship with the Father - those are the ones I was asking about. Some say they weren’t truly saved. That’s not Biblical, Gods work isn’t half hearted. Scripture disagrees with them and says they were in the right way, they did let their garnet get defiled. Those that overcome and don’t let their garmet get defiled - He’s not blotting out their name. There’s no need to mention blotting out a name if it can’t be done.


----------



## Banjo Picker

furtaker said:


> Yep, it's dead to other believers because it's not working.  Read the context of James 2.
> 
> So, are you saved by faith or works?  Seems that the Apostle Paul said you can't have it both ways.



"Know ye not, that whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, [God or Satan] his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin UNTO DEATH, or of obedience UNTO RIGHEOUSNESS . . . the end of those things [committing sins] IS DEATH . . . For the wages of sin IS DEATH" (Rom. 6:16-23).


----------



## Spotlite

tell sackett said:


> Did all those at Sardis (and in many churches today) have a true profession? Many say they are born again and they do all the "church stuff", but they don't have a relationship. They have no root.
> 
> There's much debate about the book of life. You're right, if it is a book of the redeemed, then no name could be blotted out or else Jesus was wrong. Some scholars believe it is a book of all mankind and/or a book of all those for whom Christ died. Notice it doesn't say that any were blotted out.
> 
> Our garments here on earth do get defiled, but the but the white garment that we shall receive cannot and will not be defiled.


The heart burn I have with the “trueness” of saved or profession - it says God’s work in that man wasn’t complete. That’s just my opinion because I can’t wrap my head around that concept.

Scriptures say things such as they let their garment get defiled, they have forsaken the right way, have turned after knowing the way of righteousness, and departed the faith after being deceived.

My little brain tells me they were most certainly just as saved as the men that overcame.

I don’t think Jesus is wrong, He’s our Advocate, He’s the one that will either cover our sins through repentance since He’s the way to the Father and will confess our name before the Father or blot out a name in the Book of Life.

Notice what scripture says -
“Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent”

“Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments”


I don’t think it’s a debate that should divide Christianity, but I think it’s well worth exploring because there are folks out there “living it up” and saying their ticket is a sealed deal. Weather or not they’re saved, they need to be hearing about repentance and denying fleshly lusts.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"_The soul that sinneth it Shall die" _(Ezek. 18:4). Both the righteous and wicked are referred to in Ezek. 3:18-21; 18:4-34; 33:11-20, so if both classes are addressed as dying when sin is committed, it is foolish to contradict God. The same thing was said to Adam Gen. 2:17, so if he died when he sinned, then the righteous today will also die for committing sin. It simply means that any man who sins will be sent to He11, for eternal He11 is the death penalty.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Jude speaks of some who were "twice dead" Jude 12. Men are born dead in sins, so to die a second time would have to be after the new birth. This proves men can die more than once and therefore they can be made alive more than once.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do thy first works; or else I will come unto thee quicky, and will remove the candlestick out of his place, except thou repent" Rev. 2:4-5. see also Rev. 2:16, 20-23; 3:1, 4.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"He that overcometh . . . I will not blot his name out of the book of life Rev. 3:5; 22:18, 19; Ex. 32:32, 33; Ps. 69:28. If one does not overcome, we can except then, that his name will be blotted out of the book of life.


----------



## Madman

gordon 2 said:


> The differing views of salvation depend on the Christian sects and faiths mostly.



Agreed.

Ancient “Catholic” vs. modern Protestant


----------



## gordon 2

Madman said:


> Agreed.
> 
> Ancient “Catholic” vs. modern Protestant



For all the affirmation that we are no longer under the law, we think, behave, and act like lawyers. We tackle problems like lawyers would. We seek precedence and dig for stays to save face of the less than perfect system, even at the expense of justice. We are lawyers in Christ.

When we think, act and behave from anything else which informs our life in Christ we are cast to the fellowship of misfits. Such is our times...to future generations that we worked as lawyers in our day to day give and take and  yet we boasted that we were not under the law.


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> It's a lock with one way out.


Sin


Israel said:


> It's a lock with one way in.


Repentance


----------



## Banjo Picker

"The gospel . . . by which ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain" (1 Cor. 15:1-8).


----------



## gemcgrew

Israel said:


> Jesus.
> 
> Jesus.


Yes and Amen!

Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 

Salvation is of the Lord. It is God's eternal work, a Holy act that no man can contribute to.


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> Jesus.
> 
> Jesus.


That’s a given Izzy. But, does Jesus let you in without you repenting? Can’t get much an answer out of a couple that try to sound so mystical with answers that do nothing but leave open ended questions. Thats always been connected to insecurity.

I think a couple of y’all are so hung up on the “salvation being of the Lord” that you completely deny repentance and faith. Your saved by grace through faith………faith cometh by hearing………works don’t save you but faith without works is DEAD…..repentance is a work.

Of course salvation is a gift of the Lord and nothing you do makes you deserving of that, but, you’re not born saved or even saved without repentance and that’s what y’all sound like - sorry, that’s not biblical.


----------



## gemcgrew

Spotlite said:


> I think a couple of y’all are so hung up on the “salvation being of the Lord” that you completely deny repentance and faith.


I am so all in on the "Salvation is of the Lord", that I have repentance and faith as the effect of and not the cause of.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> .
> 
> 
> Repentance is a gift.
> 
> And therein lay all the difference.
> 
> It is not that there is [some] changing of mind in Jesus Christ, but all, and not that that "some" might be as some...but is to the end of complete.
> 
> An entirely different minding. A mind flesh is unable to enter, acquire, nor attain to.
> 
> That which is born of the flesh is flesh...
> 
> It is/was and remains all a gift...start to finish...even (especially) to the thief on the cross to recognize the righteousness of Christ and in that be given to understand (and even confess) he was just getting his own just reward due his own works...
> 
> There is a reason the whole matter is under scrutiny to either acceptance or rejection and I am happy for it, no matter where (or how) I may displayed in it.
> 
> Anything that a man might discover of worthiness in his allowed (his "may-ing as below) participation remains all matters as spoken of here
> 
> for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk. YLT for lack of ambiguity
> 
> 
> Every "work" of salvation is accomplished in and through the grace of God in Jesus Christ. That gift is all of gifting.
> 
> All a man has to do is change his mind about his resistance to it. Which he cannot.
> 
> He can only come to a place where he sees he has. And he may know there a change of mind...that is all of gift.


Don’t see where it says repentance is a Spiritual gift of the Holy Spirit where does it say that?


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> .
> 
> 
> Repentance is a gift.
> 
> And therein lay all the difference.
> 
> It is not that there is [some] changing of mind in Jesus Christ, but all, and not that that "some" might be as some...but is to the end of complete.
> 
> An entirely different minding. A mind flesh is unable to enter, acquire, nor attain to.
> 
> That which is born of the flesh is flesh...
> 
> It is/was and remains all a gift...start to finish...even (especially) to the thief on the cross to recognize the righteousness of Christ and in that be given to understand (and even confess) he was just getting his own just reward due his own works...
> 
> There is a reason the whole matter is under scrutiny to either acceptance or rejection and I am happy for it, no matter where (or how) I may displayed in it.
> 
> Anything that a man might discover of worthiness in his allowed (his "may-ing as below) participation remains all matters as spoken of here
> 
> for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk. YLT for lack of ambiguity
> 
> 
> Every "work" of salvation is accomplished in and through the grace of God in Jesus Christ. That gift is all of gifting.
> 
> All a man has to do is change his mind about his resistance to it. Which he cannot.
> 
> He can only come to a place where he sees he has. And he may know there a change of mind...that is all of gift.



What’s been in question for this entire thread is this - the saved man that commits sin. Regardless if repentance is a gift or not, does he need to repent to restore his fellowship with the Father? And don’t go there with the truly saved - Bible is slam full of scripture about those in the faith knowing God and turning back. 

The second question is what happens if he don’t repent? Scripture is also clear that He gave a space for repentance and they repented not. 

For Grace - well yeah it’s accomplished through grace. 

It’s grace that allows you to repent. It’s mercy you’re not condemned right then.


----------



## Banjo Picker

gemcgrew said:


> I am so all in on the "Salvation is of the Lord", that I have repentance and faith as the effect of and not the cause of.


It would not be a deliverance from all sin if one were still bound by sin an Satan in any form.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Banjo Picker said:


> Don’t see where it says repentance is a Spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit where does it say that?




John 6:44,  No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.


----------



## Spotlite

Israel said:


> You won't find the name Jesus Christ "listed" there either, nor would one even care to look for it when one is already burdened with what one believes they can and must "work" for.
> 
> And no, you won't find Godly sorrow there either, nor even believe it is a gift...all the while carrying on as though something is understood about repentance.


You’re too hung up on works to discuss this. This has nothing to do with works.


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> .
> All a man has to do is change his mind about his resistance to it. Which he cannot.



Then would it be a gift?  Is a gift forced on a being of free will really a gift?  Or is it coercion?

Then maybe this really falls under the elect.  Perhaps one can be elected even if they desire otherwise.


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> You won't find the name Jesus Christ "listed" there either, nor would one even care to look.



Unless I do not understand your context.

Matthew 1:16
Matthew 16:16
Mark 1:1


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> What’s been in question for this entire thread is this - the saved man that commits sin. Regardless if repentance is a gift or not, does he need to repent to restore his fellowship with the Father? And don’t go there with the truly saved - Bible is slam full of scripture about those in the faith knowing God and turning back.
> 
> Yes, absolutely, but this repentance and confession of sin does not have to do with the a saved person’s eternal life.
> 
> The second question is what happens if he don’t repent? Scripture is also clear that He gave a space for repentance and they repented not.
> 
> You are headed for God’s woodshed  Ps.32,38; 2Sam.12
> 
> For Grace - well yeah it’s accomplished through grace.
> 
> It’s grace that allows you to repent. It’s mercy you’re not condemned right then.



Whom the Lord loves, He chastens.


----------



## Madman

Banjo Picker said:


> Don’t see where it says repentance is a Spiritual gift of the Holy Spirit where does it say that?


I see it has a command if one is to be saved.

Luke 13:5


----------



## Spotlite

tell sackett said:


> Whom the Lord loves, He chastens.



Thanks for the response!!

The only other thing that has went unanswered is this (I copied / pasted your response)

“Yes, absolutely, but this repentance and confession of sin does not have to do with the a saved person’s eternal life.”

What if that^^^ man does not confess / repent?


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> Do you think Paul was headed to Damascus wanting anything to do with Jesus Christ other than slaughter His disciples?
> 
> You will find even sincerity of desire the weakest thing a man operates in of himself. But which is, to himself, the very strongest he can know...before Christ's revelation.


And he forced Paul to accept or did Paul have a choice?

I do not read where Paul could not resist.  Seems a forced interpretation.


----------



## Madman

I see this falls once again into the Protestant tradition of verse vs. verse.

The age old belief that interior repentance is called contrition, it is necessary to begin repentance, but it left many when Luther unfurled his heresy of salvation by faith alone, which is not taught by the Church nor proven in Holy Scripture.

That being said.

We see John the Baptist crying in the wilderness “Make straight his paths, they went out to him and were baptized confessing their sins”.  I see no blanket conversion of the Holy Spirit.  All that is revealed is that the people were warned of the coming of the King and the need to prepare themselves with cleansing.

Many theological knowns were in practice before Luther, they should be studied before 21st century book sellers are followed.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Madman said:


> I see it has a command if one is to be saved.
> 
> Luke 13:5


Yes this predicts that the destruction, of some to whom Christ spoke would be like those whom this fell upon. Many were destroyed in the falling walls and buildings of Jerusalem in A.D. 70.


----------



## tell sackett

Spotlite said:


> Thanks for the response!!
> 
> The only other thing that has went unanswered is this (I copied / pasted your response)
> 
> “Yes, absolutely, but this repentance and confession of sin does not have to do with the a saved person’s eternal life.”
> 
> What if that^^^ man does not confess / repent?


See woodshed.


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> I see this falls once again into the Protestant tradition of verse vs. verse.
> 
> The age old belief that interior repentance is called contrition, it is necessary to begin repentance, but it left many when Luther unfurled his heresy of salvation by faith alone, which is not taught by the Church nor proven in Holy Scripture.
> 
> That being said.
> 
> We see John the Baptist crying in the wilderness “Make straight his paths, they went out to him and were baptized confessing their sins”.  I see no blanket conversion of the Holy Spirit.  All that is revealed is that the people were warned of the coming of the King and the need to prepare themselves with cleansing.
> 
> Many theological knowns were in practice before Luther, they should be studied before 21st century book sellers are followed.



You just drove straight into the ditch. That’s about as politely as I can say it.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> I see this falls once again into the Protestant tradition of verse vs. verse.
> 
> The age old belief that interior repentance is called contrition, it is necessary to begin repentance, but it left many when Luther unfurled his heresy of salvation by faith alone, which is not taught by the Church nor proven in Holy Scripture.
> 
> That being said.
> 
> We see John the Baptist crying in the wilderness “Make straight his paths, they went out to him and were baptized confessing their sins”.  I see no blanket conversion of the Holy Spirit.  All that is revealed is that the people were warned of the coming of the King and the need to prepare themselves with cleansing.
> 
> Many theological knowns were in practice before Luther, they should be studied before 21st century book sellers are followed.



Eph 2:8

For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> Eph 2:8
> 
> For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is the gift of God,


I’ll not fall into verse vs. verse.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> You just drove straight into the ditch. That’s about as politely as I can say it.


Then take the whitewash off. Please

I see no response only accusation.

Is it wrong for me to be no fan of the reformation nor Luther?


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> Then take the whitewash off. Please
> 
> I see no response only accusation.
> 
> Is it wrong for me to be no fan of the reformation nor Luther?


Only if you faith is in man’s tradition and not Scripture. Luther was combatting heresy.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> I’ll not fall into verse vs. verse.



in other words... you aren't interested in what scriptures say, only in the traditions handed down by your church.

Gotcha.


----------



## Spotlite

tell sackett said:


> See woodshed.


I absolutely have no disagreement there. It might be just me when I read those passages but there’s a confession from the sinner.

I was aiming my question more of if a person fails to confess / repent.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Only if you faith is in man’s tradition and not Scripture. Luther was combatting heresy.


Start another thread and name them please.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> in other words... you aren't interested in what scriptures say, only in the traditions handed down by your church.
> 
> Gotcha.


You are above that syndicalism remark.  For every vs. one plays another will play another vs.

We see this in dozens of instances above.

You seem to forget that tradition is Biblical.


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> Start another thread and name them please.


Try the search function.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Try the search function.


Nope start over, you claimed it defend it.


----------



## tell sackett

Actually you claimed Luther was a heretic, correct?

Another thread will wind up in the same place as all the others.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> in other words... you aren't interested in what scriptures say, only in the traditions handed down by your church.
> 
> Gotcha.


I also am not convinced that 21st century man is qualified to reinterpret 2000+ years of biblical scholarship, ecumenical councils, etc.

But some are convinced of “something new” even though Holy Scripture warns of nothing new under the sun.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Actually you claimed Luther was a heretic, correct?
> 
> Another thread will wind up in the same place as all the others.


Luther was a heretic if one understands the definition of heretic.

It will not end up in the same place if one were to study the faith from its beginning until today.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> You are above that syndicalism remark.  For every vs. one plays another will play another vs.
> 
> We see this in dozens of instances above.
> 
> You seem to forget that tradition is Biblical.



then please, back your tradition with Bible references.  I am not one to accept something just because ' that's the way it has always been done' .  I am totally open to changing my mind and thought processes if I am shown that Scripture backs the tradition.

If you aren't willing to explain why my beliefs in the Scriptures I quote are incorrect, by pointing out Scripture that would change my mind, then why should I be concerned about the traditions you espouse?

and for what it's worth... Biblical tradition is Biblical.  Tradition isn't Biblical just because it is traditon


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> and for what it's worth... Biblical tradition is Biblical.  Tradition isn't Biblical just because it is traditon



Biblical tradition is tradition.
I don’t understand.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> Biblical tradition is tradition.
> I don’t understand.



just because it is church tradition doesn't mean it is Biblical.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> then please, back your tradition with Bible references.  I am not one to accept something just because ' that's the way it has always been done' .  I am totally open to changing my mind and thought processes if I am shown that Scripture backs the tradition.
> 
> If you aren't willing to explain why my beliefs in the Scriptures I quote are incorrect, by pointing out Scripture that would change my mind, then why should I be concerned about the traditions you espouse?
> 
> and for what it's worth... Biblical tradition is Biblical.  Tradition isn't Biblical just because it is traditon


Ok let vs. vss. Vs. begin.
2 Thess. 2:15


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> just because it is church tradition doesn't mean it is Biblical.


But if the Bible claims tradition is important perhaps one should yield.


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> Luther was a heretic if one understands the definition of heretic.
> 
> It will not end up in the same place if one were to study the faith from its beginning until today.



Gotcha. Luther was a heretic because he had the guts to stand up to error.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Gotcha. Luther was a heretic because he had the guts to stand up to error.



I like that a “brother” in Christ writes off another with a condescending “gotcha”.

You have yet to show where the Church was in error.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> But if the Bible claims tradition is important perhaps one should yield.



perhaps... if the tradition is supported by Scripture, then yes.  If it is an invention of man to control the masses, nope.  Not so much


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> But if the Bible claims tradition is important perhaps one should yield.


Biblical tradition and man’s tradition do not equate. 
Any man’s btw


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> I like that a “brother” in Christ writes off another with a condescending “gotcha”.
> 
> You have yet to show where the Church was in error.


Luther did it for me.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> perhaps... if the tradition is supported by Scripture, then yes.  If it is an invention of man to control the masses, nope.  Not so much



John 20:23
Christ passed on the ability to forgive sins.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Luther did it for me.


I understand, You chose a man, I chose Holy Scripture.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> Ok let vs. vss. Vs. begin.
> 2 Thess. 2:15



Paul says to hold fast to the traditions that he spoke of or wrote in a letter.

OK.  So what traditions do we have that were taught by Paul?

Paul also said it anyone, even an angel, comes preaching a gospel other than what he taught to ignore it.  Gal 1:8


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Biblical tradition and man’s tradition do not equate.
> Any man’s btw


Seems you have a contradiction between 541 & 542.


----------



## tell sackett

How is Luther standing against the man made teaching of the church in Rome a contradiction? I do believe you have it backwards.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> Paul says to hold fast to the traditions that he spoke of or wrote in a letter.
> 
> OK.  So what traditions do we have that were taught by Paul?
> 
> Paul also said it anyone, even an angel, comes preaching a gospel other than what he taught to ignore it.  Gal 1:8


Paul did not specifically say only HIS teachings, he said THE traditions.

What is this false gospel that was taught for hundreds of years.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> How is Luther standing against the man made teaching of the church in Rome a contradiction? I do believe you have it backwards.


I believe that claim needs to be defended.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> How is Luther standing against the man made teaching of the church in Rome a contradiction? I do believe you have it backwards.


Seems you have fallen in behind Luther, the man, not Holy Scripture.

He taught salvation by faith alone, please show where that is claimed in Holy Scripture.


----------



## tell sackett

You first. You made the accusation that Luther was a heretic.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> You first. You made the accusation that Luther was a heretic.


Not playing the game.  I thought you might be serious.  I should have known better.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> John 20:23
> Christ passed on the ability to forgive sins.



and Scripture tells us to confess our sins one to another so you may be healed.  James 5:16.




Madman said:


> Paul did not specifically say only HIS teachings, he said THE traditions.
> 
> What is this false gospel that was taught for hundreds of years.



Paul's exact Greek words are there for us to look at....  his exact words in Greek were
'whether by word or letter from us'

If you want to get into the false teachings of the early church, 1 Cor. would probably be a good place to start.  They screwed up over and over, so much so that Paul had to write a lengthy letter telling them to straighten up and fly right


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> and Scripture tells us to confess our sins one to another so you may be healed.  James 5:16.



He was talking to the 12.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> He was talking to the 12.



he was writing to the entire 12 tribes that were scattered all over Asia and Europe.

James 1:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passag...e tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> and Scripture tells us to confess our sins one to another so you may be healed.  James 5:16.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Paul's exact Greek words are there for us to look at....  his exact words in Greek were
> 'whether by word or letter from us'



I’m not a Greek scholar but evidently you are so I yield.

But even so, “by word” would be “what we taught” aka tradition.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> he was writing to the entire 12 tribes that were scattered all over Asia and Europe.
> 
> James 1:1 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 1&version=KJV#:~:text=James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


Have you tried that with the members of your church?


----------



## Madman

If this is to continue it needs to move so as not to go-Jack.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> I’m not a Greek scholar but evidently you are so I yield.
> 
> But even so, “by word” would be “what we taught” aka tradition.



I am not a Greek scholar by any stretch, but I can read an interlinear Bible. And I do know a handful of people who have multiple degrees in studying Greek that I speak with regularly.  We discuss scripture all the time, and the meanings of these Greek words.  Greeks were very specific with their words, having several different words to convey the same basic thoughts with totally different thoughts behind them.

and yes, by word, Paul meant what he taught, thus my question earlier... What traditions did Paul teach us to observe?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> Have you tried that with the members of your church?



within a small group of trusted Godly men that I have confidence in their judgement and council, yes.  

To blab out all of our faults and sins to an entire congregation would be foolish, and that is not what James is telling us to do.


----------



## tell sackett

NE GA Pappy said:


> Eph 2:8
> 
> For it is by grace you have been saved through faith, and this not from yourselves; it is





Madman said:


> Seems you have fallen in behind Luther, the man, not Holy Scripture.
> 
> He taught salvation by faith alone, please show where that is claimed in Holy Scripture.



Seems you have a contradiction. First we're not going to do verse vs. verse, now we are, but okay.
1) The verse that opened Luther's eyes to the truth of scripture as opposed to man's tradition- Rom.1:17

2) See Pappy's post above, you tiptoed by it like a vampire in a field of garlic; feel free to read through v.10


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> I am not a Greek scholar by any stretch, but I can read an interlinear Bible. And I do know a handful of people who have multiple degrees in studying Greek that I speak with regularly.  We discuss scripture all the time, and the meanings of these Greek words.  Greeks were very specific with their words, having several different words to convey the same basic thoughts with totally different thoughts behind them.
> 
> and yes, by word, Paul meant what he taught, thus my question earlier... What traditions did Paul teach us to observe?


So it only applies to Paul’s traditions?


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> Seems you have a contradiction, but okay.
> 1) The verse that opened Luther's eyes to the truth of scripture as opposed to man's tradition- Rom.1:17



So what is this man’s tradition?


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> So what is this man’s tradition?


I assume that you're referring to Luther. His belief was that the just are saved by faith, not works contrary to the man made teaching of the church in Rome.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> See Pappy's post above, you tiptoed by it like a vampire in a field of garlic; feel free to read through v.10



I see a passage that says “by grace”. And I do not see ALONE.


----------



## Madman

tell sackett said:


> I assume that you're referring to Luther. His belief was that the just are saved by faith, not works contrary to the man made teaching of the church in Rome.


The RCC does not teach saved by works.  Please show that in their magisterium.

Luther’s teachings were against the world wide Church.  Don’t confuse Rome with the Church.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> So it only applies to Paul’s traditions?



that's what Paul said.  If you have any explanation as to why he would endorse the traditions or teachings of others, I am open to looking at them


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> The RCC does not teach saved by works.  Please show that in their magisterium.
> 
> Luther’s teachings were against the world wide Church.  Don’t confuse Rome with the Church.



I have always thought that Luther put out his 95 thesis to directly counter the Catholic Church.  That was the beginning of the Protestant Church... Protest being the main ingredient of his writings.  Probably the thing that set Luther to writing was the practice of indulgences and the Catholic priest selling them.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> that's what Paul said.  If you have any explanation as to why he would endorse the traditions or teachings of others, I am open to looking at them


He said MY teaching!


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have always thought that Luther put out his 95 thesis to directly counter the Catholic Church.  That was the beginning of the Protestant Church... Protest being the main ingredient of his writings.  Probably the thing that set Luther to writing was the practice of indulgences and the Catholic priest selling them.


That was a Church teaching?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> That was a Church teaching?



well, indulgences for one thing.... like I mentioned


----------



## tell sackett

Madman said:


> The RCC does not teach saved by works.  Please show that in their magisterium.
> 
> Luther’s teachings were against the world wide Church.  Don’t confuse Rome with the Church.


Don't confuse the RCC with the world wide church.

It's late, I have to get up early, I'm done.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> He said MY teaching!



yep.  He said what he taught or wrote in letters.

Do you think he meant something else?


----------



## SemperFiDawg

29 pages.  I think it's safe to say we aren't gonna reach a consensus on this.  Just a guess.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

SemperFiDawg said:


> 29 pages.  I think it's safe to say we aren't gonna reach a consensus on this.  Just a guess.


probably a safe bet.  

But miracles still do happen today.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Madman said:


> And he forced Paul to accept or did Paul have a choice?
> 
> I do not read where Paul could not resist.  Seems a forced interpretation.


I would imagine it just happened more than a "forcing." How could one have a visit like that and not follow?

Acts 9:15
But the Lord said, “Go, for Saul is my chosen instrument to take my message to the Gentiles and to kings, as well as to the people of Israel.

Galatians 1:1 
This letter is from Paul, an apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority, but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the Father, who raised Jesus from the dead.

Galatians 1:15 
But even before I was born, God chose me and called me by his marvelous grace. Then it pleased him

From Paul, chosen by God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus.


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> that's what Paul said.  If you have any explanation as to why he would endorse the traditions or teachings of others, I am open to looking at them


2 Thes. 2:15


----------



## Madman

SemperFiDawg said:


> 29 pages.  I think it's safe to say we aren't gonna reach a consensus on this.  Just a guess.


Nope never will.


----------



## formula1

Because we were never supposed to solve it! Let each one be convinced in their own mind and do not be swayed from the gospel of Christ!

Spend the rest of your life getting to know Christ and helping others to know Him. It is all you have time for!


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> 2 Thes. 2:15



hmmm... I thought we were discussing 2 Thes 2:15 and that Paul said to follow his teachings and traditions, whether he spoke of them, or wrote of them.

the NIV..  yeah, I know.... translates the word as teachings.  The literal is traditions, yet I think that our language shortchanges us on the exact meaning of the Greek word.  

the only other place in scripture that word is used is 1 Cor 11:2, and KJV and most other versions use traditions there also


----------



## NE GA Pappy

formula1 said:


> Because we were never supposed to solve it! Let each one be convinced in their own mind and do not be swayed from the gospel of Christ!
> 
> Spend the rest of your life getting to know Christ and helping others to know Him. It is all you have time for!



and there, brothers, is wisdom speaking


----------



## Madman

NE GA Pappy said:


> hmmm... I thought we were discussing 2 Thes 2:15 and that Paul said to follow his teachings and traditions, whether he spoke of them, or wrote of them.
> 
> the NIV..  yeah, I know.... translates the word as teachings.  The literal is traditions, yet I think that our language shortchanges us on the exact meaning of the Greek word.
> 
> the only other place in scripture that word is used is 1 Cor 11:2, and KJV and most other versions use traditions there also


We weee discussing “tradition” in total.


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> Because we were never supposed to solve it! Let each one be convinced in their own mind and do not be swayed from the gospel of Christ!
> 
> Spend the rest of your life getting to know Christ and helping others to know Him. It is all you have time for!


It is solved, been for 2000+ years.


----------



## Madman

And to all a good night.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Madman said:


> We weee discussing “tradition” in total.



yes, but that is the verse we started with, and were talking about in particular.


----------



## Madman

SemperFiDawg said:


> 29 pages.  I think it's safe to say we aren't gonna reach a consensus on this.  Just a guess.


And yet we read, John 17:21.
Perhaps the struggle is worth it.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:1-3; Col. 2:8-19).


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> "I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ" (2 Cor. 11:1-3; Col. 2:8-19).


That verse is written for people like you. 

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" is the biblical gospel and a very simple message.

Instead, your message is "turn, believe, submit, make Christ the Lord and Master of your life, follow him, live a good life, do good works, go to church, make sure that your good works outweigh your bad, and make sure you don't commit a sin before you die."

Tell me, which message is simpler?


----------



## Banjo Picker

NE GA Pappy said:


> John 6:44,  No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them.



This is how men are drawn by God.
He uses agents to preach His word Rom. 10:11-17; 1 Cor. 1:17-24 and the Holy Spirit to convict of sin Jn. 16:7-11. Man's conscience then condemns or sanctions his own action as to right and wrong according to the light received Rom. 2:12-16; 2 Cor. 2:15-17; 1 Jn. 1:7. God draws or allures but never drags of uses force.


----------



## Banjo Picker

furtaker said:


> That verse is written for people like you.
> 
> "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved" is the biblical gospel and a very simple message.
> 
> Instead, your message is "turn, believe, submit, make Christ the Lord and Master of your life, follow him, live a good life, do good works, go to church, make sure that your good works outweigh your bad, and make sure you don't commit a sin before you die."
> 
> Tell me, which message is simpler?


who made you God to judge anyone?


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> who made you God to judge anyone?


??
I'm judging what you post here for the world to see.

By the way, while you're talking about judging others, you're the one who said if anybody commits a sin before they die they go to Hades.


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> who made you God to judge anyone?


Which message is simpler? You never answered.


----------



## Banjo Picker

furtaker said:


> ??
> I'm judging what you post here for the world to see.
> 
> By the way, while you're talking about judging others, you're the one who said if anybody commits a sin before they die they go to Hades.


No using lots of Scriptures here to prove it. the truth shall set one free.


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> No using lots of Scriptures here to prove it. the truth shall set one free.


"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is the truth that will set you free.

Your works salvation message is bondage. Because you'll never know if you've been good enough.

The Bible says you can know you have eternal life. That's because it's received by faith alone. If works play any part whatsoever and you can lose it then you can't know it like the Bible says you can. Impossible.


----------



## Banjo Picker

The Holy Spirit through Luke records that Judas "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:15-25) and if men would be as anxious to believe the Holy Spirit as they are to believe men, and if they would be as anxious to believe all Scriptures as they claim to believe some, they would show some consistency and honesty regarding the whole Word of God, Judas not only had a moral fall but sin cause it.

Judas was not always a "devil" and a "thief" He became both after he had been saved for some time. His weakness was the love of money, and this caused his fall Jn. 12:6; Lk. 22:5; Matt. 26:14-16. If he had refused to be the treasurer of the first Christian disciples and had frankly told them that money was his weakness, he would have been better off. He had seen Christ escape the mob many times and he no doubt thought that the Lord would escape again and he himself would be $19.20 to the good.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

furtaker said:


> your message is "turn, believe, submit, make Christ the Lord and Master of your life



you will have a hard time trying to disprove that this isn't the message that Christ himself preached, and was taught by the apostles.

Repent = turn around and go the other way
Believe = That Jesus died and rose from the grave
Lord = Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord,

Look at what Paul had to say in Romans 10:9


----------



## Banjo Picker

furtaker said:


> "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ" is the truth that will set you free.
> 
> Your works salvation message is bondage. Because you'll never know if you've been good enough.
> 
> The Bible says you can know you have eternal life. That's because it's received by faith alone. If works play any part whatsoever and you can lose it then you can't know it like the Bible says you can. Impossible.


James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. is this not right?


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Are you a Banjo Picker or a drummer?
> 
> You gonna keep pounding that drum like no tomorrow when Jesus says in John 6
> 
> Jesus answered them,
> 
> Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
> 
> 
> Jesus knew exactly who and what he had chosen...even if the disciples didn't know till later.
> 
> But that is quite the whole of it...from gainsaying about grace, finding matters to resist in God's predestining of all things, some deficits in God's omniscience, some lack of qualification of the new creature made in Christ through His perfect work of salvation.
> 
> I get it...and so do some others...it's painful to discover no other man in all creation is "of necessity", but that is the presumption of being..."I exist therefore _I must have to_ because "I" do"
> 
> Not even aware how perfectly through and in Christ sin has been put away as the useless dead thing it is...even if it still remains so large in our sight. As though we, by some form to ourselves, retain a leverage even of God in it.
> 
> But...this is as necessary to be "gone through" as all other "things" for narrowing of sight, removal of specks and logs that hinder...till Christ be seen and known of us, and among us, as the all in all.
> 
> Do you think it's not a narrowing to a broad place? His winnowing fork is in His hand, and we, as living sacrifices, must see much once treasured, burnt up for the offering...which, despite momentary affliction is accomplished to the Glory of God in Christ...which no man has any regret in being purposed to see.



Yes, I am going to keep telling God's Word of the truth.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Well if folks have to wait as long for you as they do for me to start...should we supply refreshments/meals...beds?
> 
> Let God be true...and...well, ya know


you know what some say if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"These things write I unto you, THAT YE SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" 1 Jn. 2:1, 2. Saved men can sin and be lost if, when they sin, they do not us their advocate.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> That helps. At least now we know who thinks he's the cook. And who feels free to show the door.
> 
> But now I gotta stay despite all other aphorisms about no kitchen can tolerate 2 cooks...you may well be the instrument chosen to make sure I know I ain't the cook.  I always need that confirmed.


your welcome.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Banjo Picker said:


> you know what some say if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen.



well, I had some good thoughts to go with this reply, but I ain't gonna do it.

Nope.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"When they [saved women] have begun to wax wanton against Christ they will marry; HAVING ****ATION, BECAUSE THEY CAST OFF THEIR FIRST FAITH" 1 Tim. 5:11, 12, 15; 6:19, 20, 21; 2 Tim. 2:17, 18; 4:10. These Scriptures are also lies if they do not mean what they say. They say that saved people can be da-mned if they destroy the faith.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> confirmed


They mock Jesus to for telling the truth.


----------



## Nicodemus

I`m glad Jesus spoke plainly so everyone could understand his words and meanings. Unlike those that speak in confusing terms and type paragraph after paragraph. Maybe they do it to try to impress, not realizing just how foolish it makes them look.


----------



## Nicodemus

Israel said:


> Or have skills enough to accomplish it in a few words.




That`s a rare thing.


----------



## Banjo Picker

The Greek word _diabolos_ translated _devil_ in John 6:70 is also used of men. It literally means _adversary._ Any human or spirit-adversary of Christ is a _devil._ It is translated "false accusers" 2 Tim. 3:3; Titus 2:3, _slanderers" _1 Tim. 3:11, and "devil" elsewhere. It teaches that Judas became an adversary, accuser, and slanderer of Christ. He was not a devil from the beginning as many teach. No such statement is found in the Bible of Judas, or anyone else. Even Satan was not the devil from the beginning. He was a sinless angel. (Ezek. 28:11-17).


----------



## Banjo Picker

Judas then is a specific example of the New Testament man who was once saved and in God's favor or grace, but who lost this favor and went to He11 because of sin Matt. 25:24; Acts 1:16-25. JESUS, HIMSELF, ACKNOWLEDGE TO THE FATHER THAT OF THOSE WHOM THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM JUDAS WAS THE ONLY ONE WHOM HE HAD LOST Jn. 17:12. CHRIST COULD HAVE NOT LOST JUDAS IF HE HAD NEVER HAD HIM TO LOSE. JESUS FURHTER TESTIFIED THAT EVERY ONE (INCLUDING JUDAS) THAT THE FATHER HAD GIVEN HIM, HE HAD GIVEN ETERNAL LIFE Jn. 17:2. Judas had this eternal life as much as the others but became "lost" later and "by transgression fell" (Acts 1:25).


----------



## OwlRNothing

No one has asked me, but I've grown weary of the crusade. I'm not even sure what the crusade is about. It seems to be never-ending.

Mr. Banjo, my plan goes like this: If I am asked why I should get into heaven and not be thrown into the lake of fire, I'm going to say this:

"I believe in Jesus, what he did on the cross at Calvary; that His blood was shed for me and that I was cleansed of all my sins when I accepted Him as Lord and Savior."

If that's not enough, then so be it. I guess God knows best if He chooses to deny me Heaven based on the fact that I didn't ask forgiveness for saying that bad word back in 1987.

The thing is.... being saved doesn't make you perfect or sinless or blameless. What Jesus did on the cross does all that and no man can do anything to circumvent that, and get into heaven on his own works or thoughts. Jesus said "I am the way..." and I believe it and I'll rely on God's grace and his promises to me that Jesus was more than enough for me and everyone else. The old hymn got it right:

Amazing grace, How sweet the sound
That saved a wretch like me.
I once was lost, but now I am found,
Was blind, but now I see.

'Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears relieved.
How precious did that grace appear
The hour I first believed.

Through many dangers, toils and snares
I have already come,
'Tis grace has brought me safe thus far
And grace will lead me home.

You don't have to be perfect to be a Christian, which is wonderful news because being a perfect human being is impossible.


----------



## furtaker

Banjo Picker said:


> James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. is this not right?


Yep, 100% right.  It is a dead, useless faith.  But if his faith is in Christ, he's saved, without works, because there can be no mixture of the two according to Romans 11:6, Galatians 5:2 and Galatians 5:4.

His faith is dead and useless to other believers.  And a dead, useless faith won't help others in need and won't save a believer from regret and God's earthly discipline.

The word "save" in the Bible refers to being saved from things on earth much more often than referencing eternal salvation.  But when most people read the word "save" or "saved" in the Bible they automatically assume saved from he11. People can be saved from lots of things.


----------



## furtaker

NE GA Pappy said:


> you will have a hard time trying to disprove that this isn't the message that Christ himself preached, and was taught by the apostles.
> 
> Repent = turn around and go the other way
> Believe = That Jesus died and rose from the grave
> Lord = Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> 
> Look at what Paul had to say in Romans 10:9


Not hard at all.  The whole theme of the NT regarding eternal salvation is by grace through faith without works.

And the word "repent" doesn't mean "turn around and go the other way".  The word literally means "after think" which means to change the mind or think differently in English.  If I believe something I change my mind.  It does not mean to turn from sin. That's most preachers' definition.

You and I both want people to be good but that's not a factor in their eternal salvation.

The book of John is the only book in the Bible that says it was written for the sole purpose of telling people how to have eternal life and the word "repent" is not there a single time.  The word "believe" is found over 90 times.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> "These things write I unto you, THAT YE SIN NOT. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" 1 Jn. 2:1, 2. Saved men can sin and be lost if, when they sin, they do not us their advocate.


How could a saved man sin and not use his advocate? Are you saying that when a saved man sins, he is not using his advocate?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then _is it_ no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if _it be_ of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

It can't be both according to Paul. The same as the way Paul was chosen. It sure wasn't by his works.
Unless some of you are saying we are saved by grace but can loose that saving grace by our lack of works. Like perhaps God calls by grace but somehow later we snatch that grace out of our own hands by lack of works.


----------



## furtaker

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 11:6
> And if by grace, then _is it_ no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if _it be_ of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
> 
> It can't be both according to Paul. The same as the way Paul was chosen. It sure wasn't by his works.
> Unless some of you are saying we are saved by grace but can loose that saving grace by our lack of works. Like perhaps God calls by grace but somehow later we snatch that grace out of our own hands by lack of works.


That would mean that we are saved by works.


----------



## Artfuldodger

furtaker said:


> Not hard at all.  The whole theme of the NT regarding eternal salvation is by grace through faith without works.
> 
> And the word "repent" doesn't mean "turn around and go the other way".  The word literally means "after think" which means to change the mind or think differently in English.  If I believe something I change my mind.  It does not mean to turn from sin. That's most preachers' definition.
> 
> You and I both want people to be good but that's not a factor in their eternal salvation.
> 
> The book of John is the only book in the Bible that says it was written for the sole purpose of telling people how to have eternal life and the word "repent" is not there a single time.  The word "believe" is found over 90 times.


I think back then the Jews thought they could save themselves by works. They had to repent from that thought process and believe that Jesus replaced their thought process on salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

furtaker said:


> That would mean that we are saved by works.


Oh I agree, just trying to see how others are trying to add it back into the salvation by only grace equation. It was just a little thought process I had that didn't work. At least not for me.


----------



## furtaker

Artfuldodger said:


> I think back then the Jews thought they could save themselves by works. They had to repent from that belief process and believe that Jesus replaced their thought process on salvation.


If a person has to turn from sins to be saved, that means that good people go to heaven and bad people go to he11.

And the man who turned from his sins gets the credit for his salvation in heaven. Instead of Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger

furtaker said:


> If a person has to turn from sins to be saved, that means that good people go to heaven and bad people go to he11.
> 
> And the man who turned from his sins gets the credit for his salvation in heaven. Instead of Jesus.


If I could could save myself by works, I would definitely boast.


----------



## formula1

Artfuldodger said:


> If I could could save myself by works, I would definitely boast.



Religions are based on man’s works!

Christianity is based on God’s work! So we can boast of Christ!!!


----------



## NE GA Pappy

[QUOTE="furtaker, post: 13464707, member: 10225"

And the word "repent" doesn't mean "turn around and go the other way".  [/QUOTE]

I go to the first recorded usage of the word to set it's definition.  In scripture, it is Gen 6:7, were God said he repented of ever making mankind.  The hebrew word is spelled beyt sheen... and it literally means to turn about.

I would put the hebrew word up here, but I don't know how to make hebrew letters on an english keyboard


----------



## Banjo Picker

It was until the end of Christ ministry that Judas began to pilfer and to grow cold in his love for Christ. It was not until the last supper that the devil entered into him; that is, became united with him in the same crime. It was two days before the passover that he put it into the heart of Judas to go to the enemies of Jesus to betray Him into their hands Matt. 26:1-5, 14-16; John 13:2. It was at this time that he openly broke with Christ and sought opportunity to betray Him. 

Judas was sorry afterwards for his betrayal Matt. 27:3-5. He could have been forgiven as much as any of the others who cursed, denied Christ, and fled like cowards in the test. But being of a disposition to do so, he brooked over his fall and yielded to temptation to commit suicide.


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> Religions are based on man’s works!
> 
> Christianity is based on God’s work! So we can boast of Christ!!!


Is a church a religion?


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> That's a very interesting question in light of the OP, in light of the many responses...(not only limited to this thread, but over years) and in light of both implications and inferences, and what to many appear the Lord's_ plain statements._
> 
> And it takes some authority to ask a question, at least some basis or ground upon which to stand for expectation of answer and whether therefore, when revealed, such ground be shown sustainable.
> 
> For there are questions asked of honest ignorance, (which a man might hope to attain to in _being honest_,) there are questions asked for enlightening, and there are questions asked as demands made seeking to wring a submission by the supplicant from a considered inferior.
> 
> And no one need agree with anything of the above. Each has seen according as he has seen in _sight given. _And thanks be to God such light is not denied in neither quality nor quantity to those who are of the Lord Jesus Christ...unless we believe otherwise; to which I can only respond as another did...if any man be otherwise minded God is able to show even this. Both that one is otherwise minded and God holds all light of ministering and ministry.
> 
> And now a [your] question is "out there".
> 
> Is it for answer?


It is for formula.


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> It is for formula.


Hmm!

I did not mention the church in my comment!

But since you ask, churches can be very religious. My own church is at times.  But we are more about Loving God and Loving People. That is our work we are called to.  I don’t really consider Christianity a religion. I know many folks do and that’s fine with me.  I consider it all about relationship with the Savior of the world and walking in His works.  I do not consider anything I do as belonging to myself but to the One I serve. That’s enough from me!  Bless you in your findings!


----------



## Madman

formula1 said:


> Hmm!
> 
> I did not mention the church in my comment!
> 
> But since you ask, churches can be very religious. My own church is at times.  But we are more about Loving God and Loving People. That is our work we are called to.  I don’t really consider Christianity a religion. I know many folks do and that’s fine with me.  I consider it all about relationship with the Savior of the world and walking in His works.  I do not consider anything I do as belonging to myself but to the One I serve. That’s enough from me!  Bless you in your findings!


Matthew 16:18b

I suppose Christ built a “religion”.  
Bless you too.


----------



## formula1

Madman said:


> Matthew 16:18b
> 
> I suppose Christ built a “religion”.
> Bless you too.



No but church folks often do!


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> That's a very interesting question in light of the OP, in light of the many responses...(not only limited to this thread, but over years) and in light of both implications and inferences, and what to many appear the Lord's_ plain statements._
> 
> And it takes some authority to ask a question, at least some basis or ground upon which to stand for expectation of answer and whether therefore, when revealed, such ground be shown sustainable.
> 
> For there are questions asked of honest ignorance, (which a man might hope to attain to in _being honest_,) there are questions asked for enlightening, and there are questions asked as demands made seeking to wring a submission by the supplicant from a considered inferior.
> 
> And no one need agree with anything of the above. Each has seen according as he has seen in _sight given. _And thanks be to God such light is not denied in neither quality nor quantity to those who are of the Lord Jesus Christ...unless we believe otherwise; to which I can only respond as another did...if any man be otherwise minded God is able to show even this. Both that one is otherwise minded and God holds all light of ministering and ministry.
> 
> And now a [your] question is "out there".
> 
> Is it for answer?



Over the years I have learned, much like Francis Schaeffer, that people do not think their beliefs through to the logical conclusion.

Questions work well at helping us realize the next level in our path or belief system.   Christ was the master of this, always looking to improve relationships, and lives, by forcing us to think about “if a then b”.

The beauty of the internet is that it lets one hide behind a keyboard and never truly discuss the topic. we are all able to throw a grenade and keep on driving.  There are a few here that I I enjoy, not because we agree theologically but because they are willing to put themselves out there and struggle with their faith, others, when challenged, throw out the sarcasm grenade and keep driving.

To bring in religion and church in light of the OP is very relevant, it is the church that hashed out these questions and taught Christians the faith as it has been handed down for hundreds of years.  

So yes I will ask questions, some I believe I know the answer too, some I don’t. 

In the Book of Matthew, Christ claimed to build a Church, it is his Church, and it has a purpose, I tire of those who ridicule her, and refuse to sit by and listen to their dribble.


----------



## Madman

Israel said:


> I had no desire to undercut your authority to ask any question, so I trust you are not offended if even



Definitely no offense, I have learned questions, when asked of me, offer the opportunity to more completely flesh out a thought, I hope it does the same for others. It has helped immensely in my 36 years of marriage.



Israel said:


> has some "stepping up" (to me) to it. But actually...isn't that the very thing we all are saved in? Confrontation? We may not be saved by it...but we know our experience of "being saved" has not been lacking _in it_. We are in much confrontation(s).


 This is not part of your statement or question, but I will say, I have never been afraid of confrontation.  There are MANY times I have yielded to better thoughts, ideas, doctrines, than my own.  As an example, there are things in life that I truly have thought out, I believed, and yet when Holy Scripture counters I am forced to push farther to the end to learn why a course is better than mine.  I have struggled for years with some questions before God was merciful enough to "walk me through the logic".

I have learned in the secular world the adage, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" is of no use in the world we are called to influence.  If you are going to make an argument you need to be prepared to defend it.



Israel said:


> And I am glad you have brought up Francis Schaeffer, (whom I know only by name) but whom it seems you regard to some verity if I understand your statement:
> as you being "in tune with".


I wish I could think like him.  I remember reading one of his books as a middle schooler and being astonished by his clarity of thought.
*How Then Should We Live?*
*The Rise and Decline of Western Thought and Culture*

I don't come to all of his conclusion_s _but i still respect him greatly.




Israel said:


> But here is where presumption could raise its head cause I am not sure you said it for endorsement, for all I know you could be saying "I have found years and years of working to logical conclusions...fruitless"
> 
> For a man's own logic can be as much binding as any other thing...but if we are going to play in the "logic sandbox" (I see no prohibiting if we acknowledge always the presence of the greater logos)...
> 
> So I am prepared as you are...if you are to it. We are both free as far as I can see to go where our own logic...even if presented when mixed together_ confronts disagreement_...can take us.
> 
> So, just to be sure I am not misunderstanding...do you see it as a "good" thing that some, if able...not be "like" the people that


And ultimately this should lead the Christian back to the Church.  Christ gave us the church for teaching and edification, to help his children through this life.  He gave the tools, the Bible, Holy Eucharist, Baptism, Unction, etc. to the Church as our help.

I yield to the Church in matters of faith, so when I play in the "logic sandbox" it is the Church's rules that I play by.



Israel said:


> ?



None of us are the perfect philosopher, in humanity only Jesus can hold that title.  He doesn't know the truth, he is the truth, and that is what, I believe, we should all strive to attain.

Believe it or not I have never seen apologetics or theology as a means to winning an argument. First of all I am not intelligent enough. Apologetics, philosophy, theology, should be used to put forth the argument that Christianity is the best way to explain everything.

Here is a good book to check out.


----------



## Banjo Picker

Israel said:


> Jesus answered them,
> 
> Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?



notice it say a devil and not the devil.

Devils or unclean spirits called demons THEY ARE CALLED: devils Mk. 16:17; familiar spirits Lev. 20:6; unclean spirits Mk. 1:27; evil spirits Lk. 7:21; seducing spirits 1 Tim. 4:1; and other things. They are made subject to Christ and believers by the atonement, the name of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit Mt. 8:16, 17; 12:28; Mk. 16:17; Lk. 10:17; Acts 19:15. Thousands of them can enter into and take possession of one man at the same time Mk. 5:9. They must be discerned, tested, resisted, and rejected by believers 1 Jn. 4:1-6; 1 Cor. 12:10; Eph. 5:27; 6:10-18; 1 Pet. 5:8, 9.
The only resources against them are prayer, bodily control, and the whole armour of God Mt. 17:21, Eph. 6:10-18.
Satan has never been known to be merciful, good, loving, kind, gentle, pitiful, patient, or to have any of the graces of God since he became the enemy of God and man.

THE DEVIL NEVER ENTERS BODILY INTO ANYONE. This is in union with and not bodily entrance into, this is the ONLY SENSE IN WHICH HE ENTERS INTO ANYONE BECAUSE HE HAS A BODY OF HIS OWN AND HE CANNOT GET BODILY INTO ANY OTHER BODY (1 Chron.21:1; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:1-3; Mt. 4:1-11; Ezek. 28:11-17; Rev. 20:1-10. Judas was being deceived and used by the devil and did sin and lost eternal life.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Banjo Picker said:


> notice it say a devil and not the devil.
> 
> Devils or unclean spirits called demons THEY ARE CALLED: devils Mk. 16:17; familiar spirits Lev. 20:6; unclean spirits Mk. 1:27; evil spirits Lk. 7:21; seducing spirits 1 Tim. 4:1; and other things. They are made subject to Christ and believers by the atonement, the name of Jesus, and the Holy Spirit Mt. 8:16, 17; 12:28; Mk. 16:17; Lk. 10:17; Acts 19:15. Thousands of them can enter into and take possession of one man at the same time Mk. 5:9. They must be discerned, tested, resisted, and rejected by believers 1 Jn. 4:1-6; 1 Cor. 12:10; Eph. 5:27; 6:10-18; 1 Pet. 5:8, 9.
> The only resources against them are prayer, bodily control, and the whole armour of God Mt. 17:21, Eph. 6:10-18.
> Satan has never been known to be merciful, good, loving, kind, gentle, pitiful, patient, or to have any of the graces of God since he became the enemy of God and man.
> 
> THE DEVIL NEVER ENTERS BODILY INTO ANYONE. This is in union with and not bodily entrance into, this is the ONLY SENSE IN WHICH HE ENTERS INTO ANYONE BECAUSE HE HAS A BODY OF HIS OWN AND HE CANNOT GET BODILY INTO ANY OTHER BODY (1 Chron.21:1; Job 1:6-12; 2:1-7; Rev. 12:7-12; Zech. 3:1-3; Mt. 4:1-11; Ezek. 28:11-17; Rev. 20:1-10. Judas was being deceived and used by the devil and did sin and lost eternal life.


Maybe Israel's point was that Jesus chose the 12 and one was a devil.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe Israel's point was that Jesus chose the 12 and one was a devil.


Jesus knew from the beginning. He created Judas for this very purpose. At no time in the life of Judas, did he have any freedom to deviate from it.


----------



## Spotlite

NE GA Pappy said:


> you will have a hard time trying to disprove that this isn't the message that Christ himself preached, and was taught by the apostles.
> 
> Repent = turn around and go the other way
> Believe = That Jesus died and rose from the grave
> Lord = Confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord,
> 
> Look at what Paul had to say in Romans 10:9


Agreed!
"For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of" and before some go there - that "not to be repented of" means there is no regret for having godly sorrow. That is that "draw" that Banjo spoke of - conviction, remember, they were pricked in their heart........conviction will bring repentance. Look at Judas..............

People need to take the ENTIRE salvation message and put it all together instead of relying on one or two verses.


I know you did not say it but repentance is *NOT *working to save yourself.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Spotlite said:


> Agreed!
> "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of" and before some go there - that "not to be repented of" means there is no regret for having godly sorrow. That is that "draw" that Banjo spoke of - conviction, remember, they were pricked in their heart........conviction will bring repentance. Look at Judas..............
> 
> People need to take the ENTIRE salvation message and put it all together instead of relying on one or two verses.
> 
> 
> I know you did not say it but repentance is *NOT *working to save yourself.



Agreed, there is no work that we can do to gain salvation. It is a gift from God that we either choose to accept or choose to decline.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. Those that thou gavest me I have kept and none of them (that thou hast given me, and that I have given eternal life to) is lost, but the son of perdition" Jn. 17:2, 12. Here Christ acknowledges that power had been given Him to give eternal life to every man whom God given Him, and Judas is recognized among those who had been given Him; therefore, Judas as well as the others had been given eternal life. It just so happened that Judas was the only one among this particular group whom Christ did not keep, and who was lost. Judas, at one time, had apostleship but lost it and by transgression fell Acts 1:20, 25. If he fell from the ministry and the apostleship by transgression then it should be clear that he was a truly saved man before this transgression.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which conerteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins" Jas. 5:19, 20. This is written to saved men, to brethren, who can err from the truth, become sinners again, and die spiritually (lose eternal life), because of sin. if one does this he needs conversion again; and IF he is so converted again then he is saved from the error of his way, he is saved again from death, and his sins are hidden again by being blotted out and forgiven. These facts truly make the possibility of backsliding and having a new birth again very clear.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"If these things be in you and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind. and cannot see a far off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall" (2 Pet. 2:15-18). AND ONLY "IF YE DO THESE THINGS, YE SHALL NEVER FALL" NOT TO DO THESE THINGS CAN RESULT IN A FALL.


----------



## Banjo Picker

"Now the just shall live by faith: but _if any man draw back, _my soul shall have no pleasure in him> But we are not of them _who draw back unto perdition;_ but of them that believe to the saving of the soul" (Heb. 10:38, 39). If any man could not draw back and go to perdition this was a waste of words like the many hundreds of other passages that state a man dies when he sins.


----------



## M80

Madman said:


> Is a church a religion?


No, “The Church” is the bride of Christ, “The church” is something to be studied out. When we say we are going to “church” it actually means we are going to “the house of the Lord”.


----------



## Banjo Picker

It is definitely stated in 1 John 2:24, 25 that it is entirely left up to us _to let eternal life abide in us and that it does as long as we continue in the Son and in the Father._ The person that was from the beginning referred to in these verses is Christ who is our eternal life (1 Jn. 1:1, 2; Jn. 17:2, 3). It would be foolish to ask men to "let that abide in" them if it were impossible for them to do otherwise.


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## Banjo Picker

_There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"_ (Rom. 8:1). Some argue that these words are interpolated, and they try to prove there is no condition to meet in order to be free from condemnation. suppose they are not in the original in this verse, nevertheless they are not interpolated in Rom. 8:4, thus proving the same condition of no condemnation in Christ Jesus as in Rom. 8:1. What benefit is such an argument since Paul says in 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:10, 20 that any one living after the flesh cannot inherit the Kingdom of God? If one has to walk after the Spirit to be saved, as in Gal. 5:16-26, he has to do this to be free from condemnation. Paul continued in Rom. 8 by saying, "Therefore, brethren [saved men] we are debtors not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For IF ye live after the flesh YE SHALL DIE: but IF ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, YE SHALL LIVE" (Rom. 8:12, 13). Saved men then will die again spiritually and eternally if they go back into sin (Gal. 5:19-21; Rom. 1:29-32).


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## Banjo Picker

"But with whom was he grieved . . . whose carcasses fell in the wilderness? and to whom he sware that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believe not? So, we see that they could not enter in because unbelief" (Heb. 3:17-19). "Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it" (Heb. 4:1, 2). "Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief" (Heb.4:11).


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## Banjo Picker

"All our fathers . . . did eat the same spiritual meat; and did all drink the same spiritual drink; for they drank of the spiritual rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ (proving they were born again, Deut. 32:15-19). But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. Now these things were our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things as they also lusted. Neither let us Tempt Christ as some of them also tempted and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye as some of them . . . and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples . . . for our admonition . . . Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall" (1 Cor. 10:1-13).


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