# Braze Welding To Fix 597 Trigger Reset?



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

Anyone familiar with braze welding? I need to add a small bump to the hammer/trigger reset lever in my Remington 597. This lever is barely touched by the bolt at the maximum extent of it's rear travel, and the activation is inconsistent. I'm thinking a small bump on the reset lever would fix the problem (JB Weld would probably work, but I want something more permanent.) The lever trips backward when activated, so there should be no load on the brazed bump. The photo is not my rifle, but it shows the reset lever sticking up behind the bolt.

I'm wondering if a regular propane torch would work, bronze or brass, etc.


----------



## Nugefan (Feb 16, 2010)

two words .... gun smith ....

don't take no chances on gittin' hurt ...


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

Nugefan said:


> two words .... gun smith ....
> 
> don't take no chances on gittin' hurt ...



I don't think welding is a normal gunsmithing activity. If I can't do it myself, I'll probably find someone with a TIG welder to add a bump of metal.


----------



## wareagle5.0 (Feb 16, 2010)

welding is for sure a "normal" gunsmithing activity. am i correct that you are saying the reset lever needs a little more length? if so a wire welder might be able to build it up just a tad then you could file it down to fit. but this may make the gun unsafe, if you  care at all about messing up your rifle i would take it to a gunsmith.


----------



## rayjay (Feb 16, 2010)

I think a better fix would be to drill and tap a hole in the back of the bolt and use a set screw. I would red loctite the screw into the hole. Make sure the screw is a bit too long initially, then file it down to the length you need.


Is there something restricting the bolt travel ?


----------



## Twenty five ought six (Feb 16, 2010)

Braze welding will put way too much heat into the lever.  You definitely want someone to TIG weld it, then you can shape it by hand.

A good gunsmith should be able to do, as would a good machine shop.  Don't know that I'd let Larry at the Caterpillar place do it.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

rayjay said:


> I think a better fix would be to drill and tap a hole in the back of the bolt and use a set screw. I would red loctite the screw into the hole. Make sure the screw is a bit too long initially, then file it down to the length you need.
> 
> 
> Is there something restricting the bolt travel ?



I thought of that, but there is very little space for installing a screw (see photo).  The bolt buffer stops the bolt before it can reliably trip the lever. I tried shaving a spare bolt buffer, but the guide rail springs get overcompressed and the spring coils hang on the side of the receiver (guide rail springs not installed in the photo below). Some of the guys at RimfireCentral are putting JB Weld on their bolts, but I don't trust this method.

Remington could solve the problem in the 22 mag version by not machining the slot so deep. They won't acknowledge the problem - keep side-stepping it. They did send a new trigger group to try (it didn't help), so I have a second trigger group I can modify, while keeping a "stock" trigger group in case I have to send the rifle back to them. I don't have a second bolt, so I'm hesitant to modify the one I have.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Braze welding will put way too much heat into the lever.  You definitely want someone to TIG weld it, then you can shape it by hand.
> 
> A good gunsmith should be able to do, as would a good machine shop.  Don't know that I'd let Larry at the Caterpillar place do it.



TIG welding is probably the answer. I'll call Andy Gazaway and see if he can do it.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

wareagle5.0 said:


> welding is for sure a "normal" gunsmithing activity. am i correct that you are saying the reset lever needs a little more length? if so a wire welder might be able to build it up just a tad then you could file it down to fit. but this may make the gun unsafe, if you  care at all about messing up your rifle i would take it to a gunsmith.



I've studied and racked my brain trying to figure out why Remington set the rifle up to have such a marginal touch on the reset lever. The bolt buffer has to be compressed before the lever is tripped. This only comes into play when the trigger is held after a shot (which is probably most of the time). When the trigger is held, and the reset lever is not tripped by the bolt, the hammer rides the bolt back down and produces secondary firing pin marks on the rim of the cartridge. This actually seems a bit unsafe.


----------



## wareagle5.0 (Feb 16, 2010)

yea, that sounds like it could be a problem. would what i suggested work, if the reset lever was a tad longer?  im just thinking it might be better to do the heating on the lever than the bolt. ive never really looked at one of these rifles, so im just kinda thinking out loud here.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

wareagle5.0 said:


> ..., if the reset lever was a tad longer?  ....



I think it's long enough, but not wide enough. The welded bump on the front would hopefully contact the post more reliably.

I plan to start adding layers of tape to find the minimum bump thickness required. After the weld bead is added, I'll work the weld down to that thickness.


----------



## wareagle5.0 (Feb 16, 2010)

ok thats kinda what i was saying only i thought you were saying the metal should be added to the top of the lever, but it needs to be a "bump" on the top corner on the muzzle end. if i am right i would think you could do this ,or have it done, pretty easy.  i did something similar to this when the ejecter in my 10-22 broke. that was about 8yrs ago and it still works.


----------



## rayjay (Feb 16, 2010)

Is there enough clearance between the lever and the side of the rec to allow you to slide a short length of tight fitting rubber hose onto the lever ? Model airplane fuel line or weedeater fuel line or maybe even 2 or 3 plys of heat shrink tubing.

ETA: Or maybe a length of wire the same thickness as the lever placed at the front edge of the lever and then the heat shrink tubing to hold it all tightly in position. If it works you could then apply a couple of drops of superglue to make sure it never shifts.  A couple of well placed notches filed into the lever and the wire would help keep everything in place once the tubing is shrunk.


----------



## Hammack (Feb 16, 2010)

Just for your info brazing is not welding.  It is a fusion process just like soldering is.  what you are wanting to accomplish should not be that hard to do for a decent welder.  Most any process will work.  Mig or tig, and I could do it with a stick if it's what I had at the time to do it with.  I would prefer to weld it since the brazing is going to be softer and will wear down faster than steel.  If you were close you could bring it by the welding shop and I would do it for ya.  Good luck.  ~Jackson


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

rayjay said:


> Is there enough clearance between the lever and the side of the rec to allow you to slide a short length of tight fitting rubber hose onto the lever ? Model airplane fuel line or weedeater fuel line or maybe even 2 or 3 plys of heat shrink tubing.
> 
> ETA: Or maybe a length of wire the same thickness as the lever placed at the front edge of the lever and then the heat shrink tubing to hold it all tightly in position. If it works you could then apply a couple of drops of superglue to make sure it never shifts.  A couple of well placed notches filed into the lever and the wire would help keep everything in place once the tubing is shrunk.



Those options would probably work - I would just have to check it once in a while to make sure I haven't melted the plastic with some cleaning solvent.

...Or maybe some type of swaged copper cable tie.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

Hammack said:


> Just for your info brazing is not welding.  It is a fusion process just like soldering is.  what you are wanting to accomplish should not be that hard to do for a decent welder.  Most any process will work.  Mig or tig, and I could do it with a stick if it's what I had at the time to do it with.  I would prefer to weld it since the brazing is going to be softer and will wear down faster than steel.  If you were close you could bring it by the welding shop and I would do it for ya.  Good luck.  ~Jackson



I wish I was close enough to stop by - don't get down to the south end of the state very much. Thanks for the offer.

My mind was actually wandering back to the brazing option. I can pull the metal part out, so the heat is probably not an issue. I was thinking about buying this little MPP/Oxygen torch from NAPA. Do you think a brazed bump would hold long term? - a touch from the bolt trips the lever back - I'm thinking there shoud be minimal wear.


----------



## 1devildog (Feb 16, 2010)

Brass is too soft a metal to do what you want, tig weld is what you will need, but, either method will require what was turned red, to be re-heat treated. All parts of the action are case hardened, once the part is turned red from heat, it is now soft, wear will be rapid. Once you fit the piece and it functions, you will need to heat back to red, then drop in oil, this will bring it back to case hardened. Another method that can be used, heat the tip to red to make it soft, put the peice on a hard flat surface, the buck block on a vice, use a flat drift and a hammer, strike the area that needs to be increased, this prosess moves metal from where it doesnt need to be to where it is needed. What you are doing is making it a little narrower, but moving the metal to make it wider, and agan, once you fit it to work, you will need to re-heat treat it.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 16, 2010)

1devildog said:


> ... Another method that can be used, heat the tip to red to make it soft, put the peice on a hard flat surface, the buck block on a vice....



You got me thinging about the possibility of heating and bending/forming, but then I realized it wouldn't be hard to make the whole piece from scratch using 1/16 steel. It's just a stamped out flat piece with a pivot hole.

Actually 2 pivot holes.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 17, 2010)

I measured the actual thickness and it's 0.060. Here are some photos:

Looking down on reset lever installed:





Trigger linkage out, looking at heads of pins:





Trigger linkage out, looking at tails of pins:





Is anyone familiar with those pins? Is it possible to pull them out and reinstall?


----------



## Patchpusher (Feb 17, 2010)

Why don't you make a shim the right thickness and sliver solder it in place? Use the tape to determine the thickness and make a shim that will work.


----------



## 1devildog (Feb 17, 2010)

Looking at your last picture, the pins appear to be rivit style, once the part is put into place, the end of the pin is hammered to increase the size to hold the part in place. Also, looking at your last picture, you can see where the wear occured, myself, I would do my last sugjestion, heat the tip to red to soften it, hammer the metal to the worn area, clean it up with a file, then sand paper, put it together to make sure it functions, pull it apart, heat the tip back to red and drop it in some oil to re-case harden it. To keep the heat up close to the top, you can put the rest of it in a shallow pan of water to keep the rest of it cool, sort of like annealling brass cases.


----------



## trial&error (Feb 17, 2010)

If I had the choice of welding on either the bolt or the linkage, I'd go the safe route and either add to or reshape the linkage contact point as previously described.  I'd prefer tig and prob  308L or 309L filler.

$.02

correction I was still thinking stainless due to welding on your bolt  any 70 series filler would work on the linkage


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 17, 2010)

Those rivets killed my idea of fabricating a new part. Getting the linkage apart and back together reliably would take more time and effort than it's worth.

The idea of soldering (or maybe brazing) a piece of harder metal on the front might work, but I'm back to thinking TIG is going to be the easiest (and best) way to go.


----------



## Patchpusher (Feb 18, 2010)

You can gas weld it up using round spring stock as a filler rod. What you add to it will be hard as glass. You will have to grind it to shape. A file will not cut it. But will not work on stainless steel.


----------



## wareagle5.0 (Feb 18, 2010)

if i follow you, you only need a tiny bump welded on. so i would go the MIG or TIG route.


----------



## Hammack (Feb 18, 2010)

Patchpusher said:


> You can gas weld it up using round spring stock as a filler rod. What you add to it will be hard as glass. You will have to grind it to shape. A file will not cut it. But will not work on stainless steel.



When you heat spring steel to the point of melting it will lose it's hardness unless re heat treated.  

Which process is used makes zero difference as long as the one who is doing it is proficient at welding.  Run by a welding shop ask the guy to put a spot on the edge and then file it to suit ya.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 19, 2010)

Now that I've learned more about the trigger group, I'm not sure what to call the reset lever. Its function is to "break" (at a hinge point) the linkage between the trigger and the sear, so a more accurate description might be the "trigger linkage break lever" or the "sear release lever."

Rather than use tape to mock up the "bump," I added a glob of epoxy and put some indicator ink on it to verify where it touches the bolt. It's obvious the epoxy "bump" needs to be wider and less pointy.  Based on operational testing, this method works. I hope to fire it some this weekend.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 19, 2010)

*Trigger Reset Design Revelation*

As part of my discovery process, I believe I have the answer to the reset issue. I think I know why the rifle designers set up the action so that the bolt (at it's most aft position against the buffer) has such a marginal touch on the reset lever.

Before I installed the epoxy mockup (photos above), I typically de-cocked the rifle by sliding the bold back, pulling the trigger, and letting the hammer ride down with the bolt (under hand control). I like this method, because dry firing just goes against my intuition. Once the epoxy was in place, my decocking method did not work, because the trigger linkage is "broken" by the reset lever.


----------



## GrouseHiker (Feb 21, 2010)

I've come up with another idea I'd like opinions on. To keep the ability to de-cock the rifle AND get reliable cocking, the adjustment needs to be exact.

I'm thinking of heating the lever, twisting it 90 degrees and then drilling a tapping for a set screw. The thing is, the through threads would only have 0.060 of grab.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 21, 2010)

Tig...


----------



## miles58 (Feb 21, 2010)

NO!.

Take a small crescent wrench and a little heat just above the knee and then bend it gently forward.  Maybe 10-20 thousandths.  No more.

Dave


----------



## wareagle5.0 (Feb 25, 2010)

i agree with the above post. not saying the set screw wouldn't work, but i think it would be much stronger this way.


----------



## thetroll (Mar 2, 2010)

the two choices of tig or mig seem to be the best to me but tig requires the heating of the parent metal to a weldable temp. thus it would need to be heat treated again ,mig welding does not require the preheating and can be done with the parent metal at room temp,also the heat introduced  will effect a smaller area of the parent metal so i think mig would be your best option , but you would have to be sure that your amp and wire feed setting are exactly right , you will need to measure before and after to assure that you know exactly how much metal was deposited and be sure and coat it with anti splatter to be sure you do not get any weld splatter on it  .i hope this helps


----------



## GrouseHiker (Mar 2, 2010)

My TIG guy never answered my email, and in the meantime (after ordering two different torches for experimenting) I've convinced myself the fix needs to be adjustable - along the lines of rayjay's post.



rayjay said:


> I think a better fix would be to drill and tap a hole in the back of the bolt and use a set screw....



I got the pilot drill, tap, and set screws in from McMaster, now I find I can't drill the tungsten steel bolt. I posted this problem here:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=502481


----------



## Hammack (Mar 2, 2010)

thetroll said:


> the two choices of tig or mig seem to be the best to me but tig requires the heating of the parent metal to a weldable temp. thus it would need to be heat treated again ,mig welding does not require the preheating and can be done with the parent metal at room temp,also the heat introduced  will effect a smaller area of the parent metal so i think mig would be your best option , but you would have to be sure that your amp and wire feed setting are exactly right , you will need to measure before and after to assure that you know exactly how much metal was deposited and be sure and coat it with anti splatter to be sure you do not get any weld splatter on it  .i hope this helps



huh?  Mig or tig will make no difference.  Mig will heat the steel just as hot it just does it faster than tig will.  That is if you don't end up with cold lap from improper fusion as is frequent with mig tacks and starts.


----------

