# Notice A Trend?



## hobbs27 (Mar 18, 2015)

http://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/factchecker-are-all-christian-denominations-in-decline


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## centerpin fan (Mar 18, 2015)

Money quote:



> Mainliners may try to comfort themselves by claiming that every denomination is in decline, but it’s simply not true. While conservative churches aren’t growing as quickly as they once were, mainline churches are on a path toward extinction. The mainline churches are finding that as they move further away from Biblical Christianity, the closer they get to their inevitable demise.




In a related story, the PCUSA has decided to dry up and blow away.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/1...approves-gay-marriage-in-church-constitution/


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## formula1 (Mar 18, 2015)

*Re:*

The trend I see is 'Jesus is still Lord'!


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## Lowjack (Mar 18, 2015)

The trend is the prophecy in Thessalonians " The Apostasy is here"


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## rjcruiser (Mar 18, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> Money quote:
> 
> In a related story, the PCUSA has decided to dry up and blow away.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/03/1...approves-gay-marriage-in-church-constitution/



Wow.  



formula1 said:


> The trend I see is 'Jesus is still Lord'!



Yup.  Preach the word and you'll grow.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 18, 2015)

I think compromising The Word is not an effective method to grow membership. I was pleased to see that there are more people participating in church now than ever before, although there has been a shift. The media tends to make us think there's less active Christians these days, and that may be true on percentage but not in actual numbers.

 I felt it was an overall positive report.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 18, 2015)

Lowjack said:


> The trend is the prophecy in Thessalonians " The Apostasy is here"



For you, A gift, enjoy. http://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/1/13/why-it-is-finished-was-finished-in-70ad


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2015)

I wonder if the members of the liberal mainstream churches are leaving or just dying off? Maybe their kids are so liberal the don't even attend the churches of their parents. The children of conservative/fundemental  Church parents would naturally keep attending because they themselves are conservative/fundemental.
I don't know if they are saying something like, "this church is too liberal, I'm gonna join a more conservative Church" or " well this Church is making progress in becoming more liberal but not fast enough, I'm leaving. I want to attend a cool mega-Church."
Or, I'm so liberal and free, I won't attend any Church.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> For you, A gift, enjoy. http://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/1/13/why-it-is-finished-was-finished-in-70ad



Preterism and Calvinism are gaining in popularity. Maybe that's where the new members are being lead.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2015)

I've been reading this article written in 1993 pertaining to the decline of mainstream Churches. This mostly pertains to baby boomers dropping out of Church attendance for various reasons.
It shows a few different theories.
One theory attributes the decline to the shift toward greater individual autonomy and freedom from institutional restraints that got under way in the mid-1960s. 
I can see a trend in this a younger people don't associated as much in civic clubs and events. 
Young people can't identify in a Church full of old people;
One can sit today in the balcony of a typical United Methodist church and look over a congregation of graying and balding heads. Unless there is a surge of new recruits, rising death rates will diminish the ranks of the mainline denominations even further in the years ahead.

Since careful tests of these theories have never been made, no consensus has emerged as to which, if any, of them best explains why mainline churches have lost members.
Our findings cast doubt on most of the popular theories about the decline of mainline churches.

It's an interesting read from a few years back but more on a sociological order.

http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9303/articles/johnson.html


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2015)

Reasons are cited by The Christian Century: 
Worshipers attend less frequently. 
Aging constituencies.
Fewer younger members. 
Lack of interest in religion.

Evangelical Mega Churches are popular;
 But while traditional Christianity is on the decline, other types of religion are on the rise. Many people are turning more to spirituality, and Evangelicals, or born-again Christians, are also very common across certain parts of the United States.

"They're contemporary, aggressively evangelistic and evangelical and they're moving beyond the 'big box' megachurch model. The best churches have very intentional systems to move people from sitting in rows to sitting in circles (in small groups) to going out and making a difference in the world." (USA Today Online 9.09) 

These new churches are not simply places of worship, but are active and energetic family ministries.  If you go into any one of a thousand large evangelical churches in the South, you will find every room filled with day-care centers, senior citizen activities, women’s groups, bake-offs, music, and Bible study.  Far from moving off message, these churches maintain their ‘strong, clear sense of purpose’ by linking these family activities to a Christian mission – the strength of the family is paramount.   

http://www.uncleguidosfacts.com/2012/07/liberal-christianitythe-decline-of.html


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## hobbs27 (Mar 18, 2015)

Art, I have an old book I bought at an antique store written in the 1800's by a Presbyterian preacher. This book covers several of Jesus' parables. The man gives an extremely spiritual commentary on them.
 I have a hard time getting interested in church when the teaching and preaching is non spiritual " milk". 

I wonder if some people just feel they aren't growing spiritually in many of the modern churches?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, I have an old book I bought at an antique store written in the 1800's by a Presbyterian preacher. This book covers several of Jesus' parables. The man gives an extremely spiritual commentary on them.
> I have a hard time getting interested in church when the teaching and preaching is non spiritual " milk".
> 
> I wonder if some people just feel they aren't growing spiritually in many of the modern churches?



Yes that is part of the reason for the decline.
Our Founding Fathers were members of these mainstream denominations. They sure have changed.


This is from the link I posted;

It is no coincidence, says Douthat, that the precipitous decline in attendance paralleled the sweeping changes in the Church.  Why should people go to a church when their spiritual needs are not met and when secular issues crowd out religious ones?

http://www.uncleguidosfacts.com/2012/07/liberal-christianitythe-decline-of.html


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## gemcgrew (Mar 18, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I wonder if some people just feel they aren't growing spiritually in many of the modern churches?


If they are attending a modern church, would they care?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 18, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> If they are attending a modern church, would they care?



They need a "Model Church"


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## hobbs27 (Mar 19, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> If they are attending a modern church, would they care?



There's milk in many of those, and you may get the necessary bread, but to grow one needs meat.
 It's easier to be controlled if you never come off the milk because you are dependant on someone to feed it to you, and that could be the goal of some of these modern churches.
 I believe eventually all of us begin to crave meat and this could be why some denominations are losing members and others are gaining.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 19, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> There's milk in many of those, and you may get the necessary bread, but to grow one needs meat.
> It's easier to be controlled if you never come off the milk because you are dependant on someone to feed it to you, and that could be the goal of some of these modern churches.
> I believe eventually all of us begin to crave meat and this could be why some denominations are losing members and others are gaining.



I think the trap many of these churches fall into is the trap of using church to do the job of evangelism.  They design a service, a message, a layout to entertain and reach the lost.  Problem is, once the lost figure out they have to change, they don't want to come back.  So, either the church changes (what is happening in most cases) or the people leave and don't come back (also happening).

Church was never designed to reach the lost.  It is and was for the edification/growth of the saints.  Then, the saints go and proclaim the Word to those that need it.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Church was never designed to reach the lost.  It is and was for the edification/growth of the saints.  Then, the saints go and proclaim the Word to those that need it.



How do the saints go about evangelism? Would you say many saints fail in this task?
Can't the saints evangelize under the umbrella of the Church as an organized group of individuals?
I understand witnessing as an individual but also as an organized group from the Church.

I will say I look at evangelism as spreading the message of Jesus more than one's church. That being said, an invite to the local Church might enlighten them to God better than I can.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 19, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do the saints go about evangelism? Would you say many saints fail in this task?
> Can't the saints evangelize under the umbrella of the Church as an organized group of individuals?
> I understand witnessing as an individual but also as an organized group from the Church.
> 
> I will say I look at evangelism as spreading the message of Jesus more than one's church. That being said, an invite to the local Church might enlighten them to God better than I can.



Go and live a life that reflects Jesus.  Tell your neighbors about Jesus.  Debate on the Gon forum 

Yes, many Christians fail miserably with witnessing.  Their lives are full of sin...so to keep from being called a hypocrite, they accept others sin and try and fall under the umbrella of being "loving."

And yes, the church can be utilized for witnessing.  That being said, it isn't the purpose of the Church.  But...that is the great thing about the Bible.  If you preach the Word of God expositionally, the Word will convict and the sinner (both saved and unsaved) will respond in one of two ways.  Repentance or hardness of heart and unbelief.

And that is what is wrong with so many contemporary churches imo.  People invite the lost because of the music, because of the coffee bar, because it is a great way to network.  The people who attend get a motivational speech that convicts, but doesn't require too much change so not to run off anyone in attendance.  And when tough times come...they are like the shallow soil in Matthew 13.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes, many Christians fail miserably with witnessing.  Their lives are full of sin...so to keep from being called a hypocrite, they accept others sin and try and fall under the umbrella of being "loving."
> QUOTE]
> 
> I've been to a lot of Churches over my life, big city Churches, small country Churches, Pentecostal, Catholic, mainstream, and I haven't really noticed any difference between the saints in any of them.
> ...


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## rjcruiser (Mar 19, 2015)

Let me clarify.  We are all sinners.  And to a point, all Christians are hypocrites.  But, Christians (not christians) repent and desire to change.  And...there should be evidence of change....aka sanctification.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 19, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> rjcruiser said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, many Christians fail miserably with witnessing.  Their lives are full of sin...so to keep from being called a hypocrite, they accept others sin and try and fall under the umbrella of being "loving."
> ...


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Let me clarify.  We are all sinners.  And to a point, all Christians are hypocrites.  But, Christians (not christians) repent and desire to change.  And...there should be evidence of change....aka sanctification.



I agree and that is the point I'm making in relation to all of the various types of Churches. I don't see certain Churches changing the sinners into saints any better than others. Repentance levels of the individuals are not based on denominations, church size or type. 

I've been around a lot of Christians from all of these Churches and I don't see  any of them that are better than the next as far as their Church is concerned. I do see some Christians who live a more Christian life than others but it's not related to their Church type.
I've been around Pentecostal and Catholic Christians who know a lot about scripture and a lot about Church.
I don't see them utilizing any of that to make themselves any better than the mainstream Christians or the Contemporary Church Christians.
Not as a whole group of any one Church. Again, I see just as many sinning saints in the Baptist Church as I do in the Methodist Church. 
I find many Christians who are loving and forgiving. Many who witness and help others.
I also see many that are full of lust and anger. Many that don't forgive others. Many who lie, cheat, and steal.
To be honest it doesn't pertain to just the liberal or contemporary Churches. It isn't just the mainstream Churches in relation to the types of saints that I live and work with.

Now I can't really tell you why people are leaving the Mainstream Churches, just an observation by me of their saints vs other Churches saints. 
None of this gives any Church the right to not teach scripture, yet they all teach scripture differently.
They all have various types of saints with different degrees of repentance and fruits.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2015)

It is not simply the churches that are on a downhill slide. Rotary, the Lions, Kiwanis, VFW, American Legion, Masonry and labor unions are suffering the same plight. American political parties also are feeling the pressures of “deinstitutionalism.”

My Dad was attending some type of meeting almost every night back when I was growing up. He was in the American Legion, W.O.W. fraternity, a professional Grand Juror, on the county planning commission, Wednesday night prayer meeting, and a boys Church club leader.(Baptist Royal Ambassadors)
He was very civic minded. When I got out of the Navy, I joined the American Legion but never fit in with the bald and aging members. 
I think that this is one reason many of the mainstream Churches are losing members. One Methodist Church I have occasionally attended has suffered from the younger crowd moving on. The only people left are the older members.
This happened to the Baptist Church I attended as a child. It finally closed.  Most of the kids moved on. I don't know where they went or why. I believe it to be more of a social issue than scriptural differences. 
Maybe they are looking for something more contemporary and less fundamental.

Maybe people are looking for something more  genuine. Maybe they don't feel any love. They are seeking and searching for the light.

Who knows for sure, we're all just speculating. I'm sure there are many reasons.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 19, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Artfuldodger said:
> 
> 
> > Have you ever seen the member that judges?
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Mar 19, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think we have to be careful that we don't worship the Church instead of God.




WOW you got that right!


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## Lowjack (Mar 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> For you, A gift, enjoy. http://www.anewdaydawning.com/blog-1/2015/1/13/why-it-is-finished-was-finished-in-70ad



Yep I believe his work as far as payment for our transgression was all done , but not all prophecies concerning the Kingdom to Come are fulfilled yet 

They are still been fulfilled daily with Israel >


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## hobbs27 (Mar 20, 2015)

Jesus is Israel

"Israel is my son, even my firstborn"
 (Ex. 4:22 cf. Hosea 11:1/Matthew 2:15)


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## Jeffriesw (Mar 22, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I think the trap many of these churches fall into is the trap of using church to do the job of evangelism.  They design a service, a message, a layout to entertain and reach the lost.  Problem is, once the lost figure out they have to change, they don't want to come back.  So, either the church changes (what is happening in most cases) or the people leave and don't come back (also happening).
> 
> Church was never designed to reach the lost.  It is and was for the edification/growth of the saints.  Then, the saints go and proclaim the Word to those that need it.









hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is Israel
> 
> "Israel is my son, even my firstborn"
> (Ex. 4:22 cf. Hosea 11:1/Matthew 2:15)



Indeed He is!


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