# Another study!



## Trappertravis

Well here we go again throwing money away for yet another coyote study. While those of us trappers with common since try to legalize more tools to catch the fawn and poult eating machines the DNR is having a game of catch and release. Makes perfect since doesn't it! Why we know the damage they do, we don't care how far they go, we don't care about this destructive, vial, mangy, disease infested animal. Stop wasting money, just make available all the tools to the trappers so that we can help control their population better!! The DNR says "hunters alone kill 95000 coyotes per year" and we still have an enormous population of coyotes, that is enough info for me to know the trapper should have every tool available to increase his catch. 
http://m.chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2015-02-07/project-track-coyotes-three-states#gsc.tab=0


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## riverrat345

What do you do with the collars if you trap or shoot one with a collar.


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## NCHillbilly

I disagree. If coyotes are a problem, and y'all consider them to be the "enemy," then how is learning more about them not a good idea? Knowing more about their behavior can only help in the long run. Know thy enemy. The only way to solve a problem is to first understand the problem. It would be nice to have some facts instead of more wild speculation. Like it or not, eastern coyotes are here to stay, and will always be here from now on. If we're going to live with them, we need to know as much about them as we can possibly learn.


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## Mr.MainFrame10

Trappertravis said:


> Well here we go again throwing money away for yet another coyote study. While those of us trappers with common since try to legalize more tools to catch the fawn and poult eating machines the DNR is having a game of catch and release. Makes perfect since doesn't it! Why we know the damage they do, we don't care how far they go, we don't care about this destructive, vial, mangy, disease infested animal. Stop wasting money, just make available all the tools to the trappers so that we can help control their population better!! The DNR says "hunters alone kill 95000 coyotes per year" and we still have an enormous population of coyotes, that is enough info for me to know the trapper should have every tool available to increase his catch.
> http://m.chronicle.augusta.com/latest-news/2015-02-07/project-track-coyotes-three-states#gsc.tab=0





I agree, what a huge waste of money again! What other tools would you try to legalize to catch the yotes?


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## Mr.MainFrame10

NCHillbilly said:


> I disagree. If coyotes are a problem, and y'all consider them to be the "enemy," then how is learning more about them not a good idea? Knowing more about their behavior can only help in the long run. Know thy enemy. The only way to solve a problem is to first understand the problem. It would be nice to have some facts instead of more wild speculation. Like it or not, eastern coyotes are here to stay, and will always be here from now on. If we're going to live with them, we need to know as much about them as we can possibly learn.



I believe that every trapper doesn't think it's a bad idea to learn more info on the critters. That would be great. The problem is spending $900 thousand dollars. That is almost 1 million dollars..., are you kidding me! That is a ton of money!!!


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## Southern Cyote

tommy jacobsI will throw them down the same well I throw every other Eating machine Coyote I catch or shoot ! Don't throw anything in any water system well or creek!!                

Trent Gunnell What other tools would you try to legalize to catch the yotes? I believe he's talking about snares or cable restraints.


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## mpwarrak

Waste of money?  Probably.  Everything the government does is inefficient.  

However, I am interested in the results of the study, and will gobble up any info they give me.

Happy medium:  The study should happen, but should have been subbed out to a private company, who would have done it for a third of the cost.


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## WGulsby

Thought I'd chime in to provide some perspective. I'm one of the co-principle investigators on the project.

Let me start by addressing the concern that this research isn't justified. My PhD research was funded by GDNR and was primarily focused on quantifying coyote abundance and fawn recruitment before and after intensive coyote removals. We found that, as you would expect, fawn recruitment can be increased by reducing coyote abundance. What we didn't expect to find is that coyote predation rates vary quite a bit from one property to another, even within the same county. If you "zoom out" and look at the body of similar research conducted in other states throughout the Southeast, you will similarly see that predation rates vary quite a bit. Given this, our question then became - "What is driving the site-specific variability in predation rates?"

We suspected that coyote selection for certain areas was likely an important factor. Basically, the more attractive an area is to coyotes, the more coyotes you will likely find there, and predation rates will be greater. With that in mind, part of the objectives of this study is to determine what factors are driving coyote selection, and thus abundance, for certain areas. This information could be used by managers to identify areas likely to experience greater predation rates. In addition, we plan to identify how areas are reoccupied by coyotes following removal, and where the coyotes that "fill in the gaps" come from. Again, this is all very management oriented and aimed at improving our knowledge of coyotes with the objective of refining/improving our ability to manage deer populations. Keep in mind that what I've just written is a relatively concise overview.

The second concern I'm seeing pertains to the cost of the project. While the total sum is significant, each of the three states is only paying 1/3 of the total. Georgia is not providing the entire $900k. I can assure that we have worked to streamline/cut the fat as much as possible with this budget. The overwhelming majority of the funds are devoted to purchase of GPS collars and collar monitoring fees via satellite. I know of no private organization with the expertise to conduct a similar study of this size. Furthermore, since we are not profiting from the work, and much of the funds are devoted to purchase/monitoring of collars, they could not have done it more cheaply. Finally, I will add that the majority of funding comes through Pittman Robertson dollars (excise tax on firearms and other sporting equipment and dedicated to game-management oriented research like this).

I hope this helps you understand a little more about what we're up to. Just like with any other research, sometimes we think we know all there is to know about a topic until we press further. If you're not making progress in the field of wildlife management, you're moving backward. I'll also add that pretty much everyone involved in this project from the university and state agencies is a hunter and some (self included) trap as well. We chose careers in this field because of our passion for these activities and our desire to ensure sound management of the resource for future generations.

If you happen to kill a collared coyote, there is a number you can call and we will make arrangements to retrieve it from you. We appreciate anyone who's willing to cooperate.

Will


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## mpwarrak

Thanks for some clarification!
I'll be waiting for the results...
Is there any way for us to know what areas / counties are being studied?

By the way, if you're still looking for places to study them, Pine Log WMA has a very large supply of coyotes.  I'm just a few miles from it and I believe that's what's feeding my excessive coyote population....
We need a trapping season over there!!


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## WGulsby

mpwarrak said:


> Thanks for some clarification!
> I'll be waiting for the results...
> Is there any way for us to know what areas / counties are being studied?
> 
> By the way, if you're still looking for places to study them, Pine Log WMA has a very large supply of coyotes.  I'm just a few miles from it and I believe that's what's feeding my excessive coyote population....
> We need a trapping season over there!!


No problem, glad to help out. Georgia counties this year include Columbia, Lincoln, Warren, and Wilkes. We're done trapping in GA, are finishing up in Alabama, and plan to start later this week on South Carolina.


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## j_seph

So GA spent 300k on this? 
Yet we go to WMA's around the state that have foodplots that have went fallow? We have handicapped hunters who have little to no access to most WMA's. I am no financial guru but looks as though that 300k could have been put to better use for the hunters and fisherman in GA.


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## 4x4

j_seph said:


> So GA spent 300k on this?
> Yet we go to WMA's around the state that have foodplots that have went fallow? We have handicapped hunters who have little to no access to most WMA's. I am no financial guru but looks as though that 300k could have been put to better use for the hunters and fisherman in GA.



If we dont study these animals and figure out a way to keep them from eating what we spend thousands every year to hunt, there wont be anything left to hunt.

Just my .02


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## Bob2010

WGulsby said:


> Thought I'd chime in to provide some perspective. I'm one of the co-principle investigators on the project.
> 
> Let me start by addressing the concern that this research isn't justified. My PhD research was funded by GDNR and was primarily focused on quantifying coyote abundance and fawn recruitment before and after intensive coyote removals. We found that, as you would expect, fawn recruitment can be increased by reducing coyote abundance. What we didn't expect to find is that coyote predation rates vary quite a bit from one property to another, even within the same county. If you "zoom out" and look at the body of similar research conducted in other states throughout the Southeast, you will similarly see that predation rates vary quite a bit. Given this, our question then became - "What is driving the site-specific variability in predation rates?"
> 
> We suspected that coyote selection for certain areas was likely an important factor. Basically, the more attractive an area is to coyotes, the more coyotes you will likely find there, and predation rates will be greater. With that in mind, part of the objectives of this study is to determine what factors are driving coyote selection, and thus abundance, for certain areas. This information could be used by managers to identify areas likely to experience greater predation rates. In addition, we plan to identify how areas are reoccupied by coyotes following removal, and where the coyotes that "fill in the gaps" come from. Again, this is all very management oriented and aimed at improving our knowledge of coyotes with the objective of refining/improving our ability to manage deer populations. Keep in mind that what I've just written is a relatively concise overview.
> 
> The second concern I'm seeing pertains to the cost of the project. While the total sum is significant, each of the three states is only paying 1/3 of the total. Georgia is not providing the entire $900k. I can assure that we have worked to streamline/cut the fat as much as possible with this budget. The overwhelming majority of the funds are devoted to purchase of GPS collars and collar monitoring fees via satellite. I know of no private organization with the expertise to conduct a similar study of this size. Furthermore, since we are not profiting from the work, and much of the funds are devoted to purchase/monitoring of collars, they could not have done it more cheaply. Finally, I will add that the majority of funding comes through Pittman Robertson dollars (excise tax on firearms and other sporting equipment and dedicated to game-management oriented research like this).
> 
> I hope this helps you understand a little more about what we're up to. Just like with any other research, sometimes we think we know all there is to know about a topic until we press further. If you're not making progress in the field of wildlife management, you're moving backward. I'll also add that pretty much everyone involved in this project from the university and state agencies is a hunter and some (self included) trap as well. We chose careers in this field because of our passion for these activities and our desire to ensure sound management of the resource for future generations.
> 
> If you happen to kill a collared coyote, there is a number you can call and we will make arrangements to retrieve it from you. We appreciate anyone who's willing to cooperate.
> 
> Will




You are the man for this question.  2 properties in McDuffie county.  1 on each side of the hwy. Both are surrounded by wma lands. Both have everything wildlife needs. Water, thick, oaks, food plots, fruit trees, etc. Both have had amazing deer hunting for years. One side dries up and no deer to be found anywhere.  After year 2 of terrible deer population. coyote control is done. Meantime the other side of the hwy is still great hunting.  Deer numbers seem normal on my side. I think my friend across the hwy is crazy. Year 3 my friends side is back to normal.  Great hunting again.  My side is now a ghost land. No sign, no deer, plenty of food but just terrible population of deer. Coyote sign everywhere. Is that consistent with the predation rates being different in the same area? Is that what you are trying to figure out? It looks like he ran the pack to my side and they set up camp and hammered every fawn that was born this year. Is that possible?  Or am I crazy? They run everywhere.  I hear them all over. Seems they will hang in one productive area full of fawns and just destroy them.


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## JohnK

I doubt hunters in Georgia killed anywhere near 95,000 coyotes, maybe in their dreams. If you got a link for that I'd like to see it.


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## GA DAWG

4x4 said:


> If we dont study these animals and figure out a way to keep them from eating what we spend thousands every year to hunt, there wont be anything left to hunt.
> 
> Just my .02


We dont need a study. We Already know what they do.We need to kill em. That means shoot all we see. Trap em. Then kill them to. Pretty simple and it aint costing us 300k. Whatever the study says. Thats the only way to keep them from eating what we spend thousands a yr to hunt.


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## j_seph

4x4 said:


> If we dont study these animals and figure out a way to keep them from eating what we spend thousands every year to hunt, there wont be anything left to hunt.
> 
> Just my .02





GA DAWG said:


> We dont need a study. We Already know what they do.We need to kill em. That means shoot all we see. Trap em. Then kill them to. Pretty simple and it aint costing us 300k. Whatever the study says. Thats the only way to keep them from eating what we spend thousands a yr to hunt.



Just my .02, I have to agree with GA DAWG
No matter what their study says, folks will still kill as many as they do now. 300k, can be used a whole lot better elsewhere


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## Fuzzy D Fellers

Good luck with the study. Money well spent. Netflix has a good documentary on the eastern coyote.


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## mpwarrak

Let's see what the study finds, but next time we have 300K to spend, let's buy GA trappers each a new dozen MB-550s.  Now THAT will have an impact on the coyote population!


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## riverrat345

WGulsby said:


> Thought I'd chime in to provide some perspective. I'm one of the co-principle investigators on the project.
> 
> Let me start by addressing the concern that this research isn't justified. My PhD research was funded by GDNR and was primarily focused on quantifying coyote abundance and fawn recruitment before and after intensive coyote removals. We found that, as you would expect, fawn recruitment can be increased by reducing coyote abundance. What we didn't expect to find is that coyote predation rates vary quite a bit from one property to another, even within the same county. If you "zoom out" and look at the body of similar research conducted in other states throughout the Southeast, you will similarly see that predation rates vary quite a bit. Given this, our question then became - "What is driving the site-specific variability in predation rates?"
> 
> We suspected that coyote selection for certain areas was likely an important factor. Basically, the more attractive an area is to coyotes, the more coyotes you will likely find there, and predation rates will be greater. With that in mind, part of the objectives of this study is to determine what factors are driving coyote selection, and thus abundance, for certain areas. This information could be used by managers to identify areas likely to experience greater predation rates. In addition, we plan to identify how areas are reoccupied by coyotes following removal, and where the coyotes that "fill in the gaps" come from. Again, this is all very management oriented and aimed at improving our knowledge of coyotes with the objective of refining/improving our ability to manage deer populations. Keep in mind that what I've just written is a relatively concise overview.
> 
> The second concern I'm seeing pertains to the cost of the project. While the total sum is significant, each of the three states is only paying 1/3 of the total. Georgia is not providing the entire $900k. I can assure that we have worked to streamline/cut the fat as much as possible with this budget. The overwhelming majority of the funds are devoted to purchase of GPS collars and collar monitoring fees via satellite. I know of no private organization with the expertise to conduct a similar study of this size. Furthermore, since we are not profiting from the work, and much of the funds are devoted to purchase/monitoring of collars, they could not have done it more cheaply. Finally, I will add that the majority of funding comes through Pittman Robertson dollars (excise tax on firearms and other sporting equipment and dedicated to game-management oriented research like this).
> 
> I hope this helps you understand a little more about what we're up to. Just like with any other research, sometimes we think we know all there is to know about a topic until we press further. If you're not making progress in the field of wildlife management, you're moving backward. I'll also add that pretty much everyone involved in this project from the university and state agencies is a hunter and some (self included) trap as well. We chose careers in this field because of our passion for these activities and our desire to ensure sound management of the resource for future generations.
> 
> If you happen to kill a collared coyote, there is a number you can call and we will make arrangements to retrieve it from you. We appreciate anyone who's willing to cooperate.
> 
> Will



So is the trappers getting paid to trap, if so is that something you will share?


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## Dixiesimpleman32

The coyotes travel power lines, gas lines and train tracks. That's how they got spread out all over the country.


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## WGulsby

Bob2010 said:


> You are the man for this question.  2 properties in McDuffie county.  1 on each side of the hwy. Both are surrounded by wma lands. Both have everything wildlife needs. Water, thick, oaks, food plots, fruit trees, etc. Both have had amazing deer hunting for years. One side dries up and no deer to be found anywhere.  After year 2 of terrible deer population. coyote control is done. Meantime the other side of the hwy is still great hunting.  Deer numbers seem normal on my side. I think my friend across the hwy is crazy. Year 3 my friends side is back to normal.  Great hunting again.  My side is now a ghost land. No sign, no deer, plenty of food but just terrible population of deer. Coyote sign everywhere. Is that consistent with the predation rates being different in the same area? Is that what you are trying to figure out? It looks like he ran the pack to my side and they set up camp and hammered every fawn that was born this year. Is that possible?  Or am I crazy? They run everywhere.  I hear them all over. Seems they will hang in one productive area full of fawns and just destroy them.


The situation you describe is definitely one of the many reasons for this study. We really have no idea at this point why coyote populations do this. Blink on in one area, off in another, then back on again, etc. How coyotes move throughout the landscape, and how their metapopulations function has very important implications for deer management going forward.


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## WGulsby

j_seph said:


> So GA spent 300k on this?
> Yet we go to WMA's around the state that have foodplots that have went fallow? We have handicapped hunters who have little to no access to most WMA's. I am no financial guru but looks as though that 300k could have been put to better use for the hunters and fisherman in GA.


I understand your point, but you must also realize that there are certain areas that the PR funding handed down by the feds must be allocated to. Game management research is one of those areas. The problems you describe sound like they're more related to manpower than funding. For some reason, I think I've heard before that the federal PR money cannot be used in that capacity, but don't quote me on that. Killmaster would be better equipped to answer that question than me.


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## WGulsby

GA DAWG said:


> We dont need a study. We Already know what they do.We need to kill em. That means shoot all we see. Trap em. Then kill them to. Pretty simple and it aint costing us 300k. Whatever the study says. Thats the only way to keep them from eating what we spend thousands a yr to hunt.


No surprise here, but I disagree. If this mentality was prevalent throughout history, we'd still be living in the stone age. It's impossible to gain additional understanding on a topic until you push the envelope that is knowledge further. Killing coyotes is an effective way to offset predation on small, intensive scales (e.g., one property), but obviously not everyone has the massive time/money resources required to reduce coyote abundance to an extent that recruitment responds. This research has the potential to reveal how habitat management/landscape use drives local coyote abundance and therefore predation on fawns. It may be that there are things we can do to offset predation that are more time/cost effective on a large scale.


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## WGulsby

mpwarrak said:


> Let's see what the study finds, but next time we have 300K to spend, let's buy GA trappers each a new dozen MB-550s.  Now THAT will have an impact on the coyote population!


I realize you say this in jest, but just to clarify, that WOULD work on the select properties you and others choose to trap, but would have no appreciable impact on the statewide abundance of coyotes. We only need look to the west and the massive amounts of time and money they've spent for decades on killing coyotes to see that they only remove the same number, or more, the following years. Coyotes have been shot, trapped, poisoned, diseased, and had bounties placed on their heads for longer than we've been alive and there's now more of them than ever. I'm not opposed to killing coyotes and agree that it can positively affect deer herds in small areas, but is not effective at large (county or statewide) scales.


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## j_seph

WGulsby said:


> I realize you say this in jest, but just to clarify, that WOULD work on the select properties you and others choose to trap, but would have no appreciable impact on the statewide abundance of coyotes. We only need look to the west and the massive amounts of time and money they've spent for decades on killing coyotes to see that they only remove the same number, or more, the following years. Coyotes have been shot, trapped, poisoned, diseased, and had bounties placed on their heads for longer than we've been alive and there's now more of them than ever. I'm not opposed to killing coyotes and agree that it can positively affect deer herds in small areas, but is not effective at large (county or statewide) scales.


Reading this, would it not be better to do a study where there is an abundance of yotes. I mean more test subjects the better right?


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## C.Killmaster

j_seph said:


> So GA spent 300k on this?
> Yet we go to WMA's around the state that have foodplots that have went fallow? We have handicapped hunters who have little to no access to most WMA's. I am no financial guru but looks as though that 300k could have been put to better use for the hunters and fisherman in GA.



WSFR (Wildlife and Sport Fish Restoration program) Funds, within our state limit, are given to Georgia at a rate of 3 dollars for each non-federal dollar (i.e. license fees) the state puts up.  Several years ago our state WSFR Fund limit rose dramatically with the increased sales of firearms and ammunition, to the point where we didn't have enough license revenue to match it.  This was a perfect situation for research because UGA helped furnish the match dollars allowing us to capture money that may have otherwise gone to another state.  Thus, this took nothing away from WMA expenditures.

Speaking of WMAs, more than 75% of the game management budget already goes to operate WMAs.  About 25% of hunters hunt on public land and only 6% hunt exclusively public land.  How do more food plots on WMAs benefit the 75% of hunters who don't hunt public land, yet their license fees and federal excise taxes already mostly go to WMAs?  This research will benefit all hunters in Georgia.


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## WGulsby

j_seph said:


> Reading this, would it not be better to do a study where there is an abundance of yotes. I mean more test subjects the better right?


Yes, and where there are few, and everything in between. Part of the problem with similar previous research is that it was conducted at smaller scales, limiting inferences. The unprecedented size of this cooperative project will address that. Even if we collared all the coyotes in one area (which we're not), the sheer number of collars we're putting out will ensure that the study animals will end up spread out over the coming months. In fact, they already have begun this process. One of our individuals is already covering a 12 square mile area.


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## mpwarrak

WGulsby said:


> No surprise here, but I disagree. If this mentality was prevalent throughout history, we'd still be living in the stone age. It's impossible to gain additional understanding on a topic until you push the envelope that is knowledge further. Killing coyotes is an effective way to offset predation on small, intensive scales (e.g., one property), but obviously not everyone has the massive time/money resources required to reduce coyote abundance to an extent that recruitment responds. This research has the potential to reveal how habitat management/landscape use drives local coyote abundance and therefore predation on fawns. It may be that there are things we can do to offset predation that are more time/cost effective on a large scale.



The man makes sense!!  Georgians probably spend way more than 300k on trapping supplies and paying trappers annually.  I do it for a hobby and still manage to spend $200+ /yr.
However, my question is about your last sentence.  What evil plans are you guys plotting that we haven't heard about?



WGulsby said:


> I realize you say this in jest, but just to clarify, that WOULD work on the select properties you and others choose to trap, but would have no appreciable impact on the statewide abundance of coyotes. We only need look to the west and the massive amounts of time and money they've spent for decades on killing coyotes to see that they only remove the same number, or more, the following years. Coyotes have been shot, trapped, poisoned, diseased, and had bounties placed on their heads for longer than we've been alive and there's now more of them than ever. I'm not opposed to killing coyotes and agree that it can positively affect deer herds in small areas, but is not effective at large (county or statewide) scales.



I was kinda joking... But I will disagree about trapping not affecting county  or statewide.  If all trapping in GA would stop right now, I'll bet predation would increase dramatically.  I do understand your point though, because there is not much government agencies can do to MAKE citizens trap more.

But my bigger question is the same as my response to the other comment above.^

If killing coyotes doesn't help statewide, what other methods are on the table?  Or is it a secret still? 

Maybe we could take helicopters and make food drops in strategic areas right about at the time fawns are being born.  The coyotes will be so stuffed they won't be hungry for fawns.

Or, we could train select coyotes to be "preachers" and  convince the rest that killing deer is wrong.

I'm joking of course, but seriously, what other ideas are out there?


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## Resica

WGulsby said:


> No surprise here, but I disagree. If this mentality was prevalent throughout history, we'd still be living in the stone age. It's impossible to gain additional understanding on a topic until you push the envelope that is knowledge further. Killing coyotes is an effective way to offset predation on small, intensive scales (e.g., one property), but obviously not everyone has the massive time/money resources required to reduce coyote abundance to an extent that recruitment responds. This research has the potential to reveal how habitat management/landscape use drives local coyote abundance and therefore predation on fawns. It may be that there are things we can do to offset predation that are more time/cost effective on a large scale.



Amen. Good luck with your research. Have fun!!


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## Resica

NCHillbilly said:


> I disagree. If coyotes are a problem, and y'all consider them to be the "enemy," then how is learning more about them not a good idea? Knowing more about their behavior can only help in the long run. Know thy enemy. The only way to solve a problem is to first understand the problem. It would be nice to have some facts instead of more wild speculation. Like it or not, eastern coyotes are here to stay, and will always be here from now on. If we're going to live with them, we need to know as much about them as we can possibly learn.



Quit talking sense Hillbilly!


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## Trappertravis

JohnK said:


> I doubt hunters in Georgia killed anywhere near 95,000 coyotes, maybe in their dreams. If you got a link for that I'd like to see it.



Look in the rules and regs magazine, it's in there. I can't believe it either.


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## Trappertravis

Trent Gunnell said:


> I agree, what a huge waste of money again! What other tools would you try to legalize to catch the yotes?



Cable restraints!


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## C.Killmaster

Trappertravis said:


> Look in the rules and regs magazine, it's in there. I can't believe it either.



I know the estimate sounds high, and I'm not convinced that it's accurate.  However, it was based on an estimate that one in three deer hunters killed one coyote from our survey.  While it may be an overestimate, 1 in 3 hunters killing a coyote is not a huge stretch.  Remember that there are 325,000 deer hunters compared to 1,500 trappers.

On that line, one could argue that a substantial increase in the number of trappers, say 10-fold, could have a substantial impact on the coyote population.  I'm sure you'll agree that trapping is infinitely more efficient at removing coyotes than popping them from a deer stand.  If you really want more coyotes killed, recruiting trappers is the way to do it.


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## Resica

C.Killmaster said:


> I know the estimate sounds high, and I'm not convinced that it's accurate.  However, it was based on an estimate that one in three deer hunters killed one coyote from our survey.  While it may be an overestimate, 1 in 3 hunters killing a coyote is not a huge stretch.  Remember that there are 325,000 deer hunters compared to 1,500 trappers.
> 
> On that line, one could argue that a substantial increase in the number of trappers, say 10-fold, could have a substantial impact on the coyote population.  I'm sure you'll agree that trapping is infinitely more efficient at removing coyotes than popping them from a deer stand.  If you really want more coyotes killed, recruiting trappers is the way to do it.



 Something seems off. Georgia-325,000 deer hunters, 1,500 trappers, 95,000 coyotes harvested.

Pennsylvania- 950,000 ish hunting licenses sold, 43,000 furbearer licenses(trapping or hunting furbearers) sold, 35- 40,000 coyotes harvested.

     Is Pa. really low, or is Georgia really high, or both, or neither?


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## Barehunter

Trappertravis said:


> Cable restraints!



What Travis said...


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## mpwarrak

Resica said:


> Something seems off. Georgia-325,000 deer hunters, 1,500 trappers, 95,000 coyotes harvested.
> 
> Pennsylvania- 950,000 ish hunting licenses sold, 43,000 furbearer licenses(trapping or hunting furbearers) sold, 35- 40,000 coyotes harvested.
> 
> Is Pa. really low, or is Georgia really high, or both, or neither?



Umm, yes. 

I have lived in PA, and you don't have near the coyote population we do.  Or the bobcats.  But you have lots more foxes.  Coyote population here is insane, mainly because everything is thick and brushy and they can hide.  Too many fields and open country up there, hunters can pop them easily....


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## C.Killmaster

mpwarrak said:


> Umm, yes.
> 
> I have lived in PA, and you don't have near the coyote population we do.  Or the bobcats.  But you have lots more foxes.  Coyote population here is insane, mainly because everything is thick and brushy and they can hide.  Too many fields and open country up there, hunters can pop them easily....



Coyote populations expanded more rapidly in GA than in PA.  There were likely private sector stockings (fox hunters) in both states, but GA also met the natural eastward expansion of the western population much sooner.


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## Resica

C.Killmaster said:


> Coyote populations expanded more rapidly in GA than in PA.  There were likely private sector stockings (fox hunters) in both states, but GA also met the natural eastward expansion of the western population much sooner.



We've had yotes in Pa. for over 50 years. Apparently it wasn't until late in the last century when they really started to expand. Our game commission estimates the population at around 100,000 animals. What are the population estimates in Georgia?


----------



## C.Killmaster

Resica said:


> We've had yotes in Pa. for over 50 years. Apparently it wasn't until late in the last century when they really started to expand. Our game commission estimates the population at around 100,000 animals. What are the population estimates in Georgia?



We don't have an estimate because we don't have a reliable data source to derive it from.  I'm curious what data they use to estimate the population.


----------



## bassculler

I am very interested in the results of this study. I hunt yotes in Columbia, Lincoln, Warren, and Wilkes several times per week. Although i am successful most of the time, i would like more real info on them. Feb/ March are my two best months year in year out...especially on virgin land. I know they are very smart and its very difficult to call them up on the same tract 2 weeks in a row......even with different calls. i would love to know how large their territory is and do they typically have 1 dominant male in the pack that breeds and defends? most of what i kill are males


----------



## Resica

C.Killmaster said:


> We don't have an estimate because we don't have a reliable data source to derive it from.  I'm curious what data they use to estimate the population.



I took that number from an article. I'm not 100% sure it came the the PGC's mouth.


----------



## GA DAWG

All I know is in the last yr. Ive killed 10. 2 got ran over in my driveway and my cousin killed one. This is on about 200ac. They will be right back. Imagine if I killed 13 deer off this 200ac. They wouldnt be anymore. I bet we have more coyotes than deer nowdays.


----------



## shakey gizzard

GA DAWG said:


> All I know is in the last yr. Ive killed 10. 2 got ran over in my driveway and my cousin killed one. This is on about 200ac. They will be right back. Imagine if I killed 13 deer off this 200ac. They wouldnt be anymore. *I bet we have more coyotes than deer nowdays*.



That's what the # of road kill critters on 400 is sayin!


----------



## j_seph

shakey gizzard said:


> That's what the # of road kill critters on 400 is sayin!


How dare youone of them was my pet dog fluffy


----------



## Dustin

WGulsby said:


> It may be that there are things we can do to offset predation that are more time/cost effective on a large scale.



There is, make it a game animal and let the GADNR control the harvest numbers (example: limit of 2 males and 10 females with a 5 month season) then put the wardens out there to make sure nobody poaches a coyote, at the same time remove all regulations on deer... the coyotes will be gone in 3 yrs and the deer population will explode. Or, just tell them to do the exact opposite of what they've been doing the last 15 yrs... there that's 300k saved.


----------



## jmharris23

WGulsby and C. Killmaster, I for one appreciate your willingness to come here and wade around ignorant and/or angry comments and let us know what you are doing in our state. You don't have to do it, and just wanted to say thanks.


----------



## Hammer Spank

jmharris23 said:


> WGulsby and C. Killmaster, I for one appreciate your willingness to come here and wade around ignorant and/or angry comments and let us know what you are doing in our state. You don't have to do it, and just wanted to say thanks.



I second this!!

Man, I am glad that I didn't use my wildlife degree after college.  I don't have the patience that you two do.  Keep up the good work.


----------



## Barebowyer

I  as someone who spends a ton of times in the woods, and as a new resident of Georgia(just under a year).  I resided and hunted  in Virginia for 33 years which has had an increased number of coyotes as well as everywhere else it seem.  I run many trail cams year round and I hunt all seasons as well as trap.  In the past ten months of living here in Georgia I have seen more coyotes and bobcats on my cameras and in person than I have in my entire life! The first week(actually 5 days) I ran a camera, in town for Coyotes here in Laurens County near some discarded scraps, I had 368 coyote photos and up to three at a time on scene.  Just an FYI and adding some input from someone with a recent comparison.  I also seen foxes on approximately half of my deer hunts this year in the East Dublin area(slightly above average IMO compared to Virginia).  I had several does drop fawns this past year on my cameras with the deer having clearly identifiable marks on them.  Out of the five fawns I know that were born on that particular property(pics), three singles and one pair, only the pair made it past two weeks after birth and into the deer season.  I was pulling anywhere from 1500-2500 pics a week from that property.  I cannot factually blame the coyote for their demise but I can say they disappeared and their mothers remained on my plots daily and that's just on a 150ac piece.  Predators are more abundant in this State than I have ever seen in my lifetime with the exception of Ohio(coyotes).  I have traveled, hunted, and filmed in 7 states.  Just my .02.  I will trap, hunt, and do my part regardless where I reside.


----------



## Barebowyer

Sorry for the "typos" etc...I just noticed after posting guys....


----------



## mpwarrak

Barebowyer said:


> Sorry for the "typos" etc...I just noticed after posting guys....



You can go back and "edit" your post....

But I agree, I've lived in 7 states and GA has about the highest predator population... especially coyotes.


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## Barebowyer

"MPWARRACK"  Thanks.  I didn't take the time to do so...I appreciate the intel.


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## WGulsby

jmharris23 said:


> WGulsby and C. Killmaster, I for one appreciate your willingness to come here and wade around ignorant and/or angry comments and let us know what you are doing in our state. You don't have to do it, and just wanted to say thanks.





Hammer Spank said:


> I second this!!
> 
> Man, I am glad that I didn't use my wildlife degree after college.  I don't have the patience that you two do.  Keep up the good work.


I really appreciate it guys, and I'm sure Charlie does as well. Over the past several years, I've learned through personal experience and conversations with Charlie and others that most of the "hate" we receive is a product of hunters getting information from unreliable sources. Generally speaking, once we convince them that we also have the best interest of the resource in mind, and are transparent with what we're doing and how we're going about it, people respond positively.


----------



## WGulsby

Barebowyer said:


> I  as someone who spends a ton of times in the woods, and as a new resident of Georgia(just under a year).  I resided and hunted  in Virginia for 33 years which has had an increased number of coyotes as well as everywhere else it seem.  I run many trail cams year round and I hunt all seasons as well as trap.  In the past ten months of living here in Georgia I have seen more coyotes and bobcats on my cameras and in person than I have in my entire life! The first week(actually 5 days) I ran a camera, in town for Coyotes here in Laurens County near some discarded scraps, I had 368 coyote photos and up to three at a time on scene.  Just an FYI and adding some input from someone with a recent comparison.  I also seen foxes on approximately half of my deer hunts this year in the East Dublin area(slightly above average IMO compared to Virginia).  I had several does drop fawns this past year on my cameras with the deer having clearly identifiable marks on them.  Out of the five fawns I know that were born on that particular property(pics), three singles and one pair, only the pair made it past two weeks after birth and into the deer season.  I was pulling anywhere from 1500-2500 pics a week from that property.  I cannot factually blame the coyote for their demise but I can say they disappeared and their mothers remained on my plots daily and that's just on a 150ac piece.  Predators are more abundant in this State than I have ever seen in my lifetime with the exception of Ohio(coyotes).  I have traveled, hunted, and filmed in 7 states.  Just my .02.  I will trap, hunt, and do my part regardless where I reside.


In light of the best current information we have, this makes sense. It's generally accepted that the coyote's eastward expansion occurred along a northern and a southern "front". The two fronts hit the east coast and expanded southward and northward, respectively, meeting in the Virginia/mid-Atlantic region. Thus, this area was likely one of the last regions of the east coast to be colonized.


----------



## Hammer Spank

I'm a buddy of John Seginak by the way.  He talks about you and this study often.  

Do you find that their populations explode once introduced into a new area and then slowly decline and come into "balance" with the land over time?  If I'm correct, SW ga had coyotes first and they moved East and North from there with Northeast GA being the last to get them.  When they entered these areas, they seemed to explode and then decline again at a rate that was consistent with how long they had been present there.  My buddies who hunt SW GA hardly ever see them anymore and they've been declining in SE Ga for some time as well (at least where I hunt).  Not long ago, the Piedmont was absolutely covered with them, but I believe they have been declining as well.  

As an example, John used to kill between 10 and 28 coyotes per year on a 2000 acre Oglethorpe County farm.  He hasn't called in a single coyote this year and has had very few responses or sightings over the last 3-4 years.  

I used to see between 5 and 10 per deer season and would call in several every winter.  I haven't seen a single one this entire year and have gone calling 4 times now without a response.  In fact, several people that I hunt with (all over the state) reported that this is the first year they had not seen a coyote.  

Personally, I enjoy having them.  They are extremely interesting critters and are wonderful to watch.  I read a study that another biologist friend forwarded to me that showed that coyote presence actually benefited turkey populations by removing more successful nest predators.  

I also have to wonder (given that it has been proven in several studies) if all of these deer hunters randomly shooting the coyotes they see aren't artificially causing a population explosion.


----------



## WGulsby

Hammer Spank said:


> I'm a buddy of John Seginak by the way.  He talks about you and this study often.


 John is as good as they come.


Hammer Spank said:


> Do you find that their populations explode once introduced into a new area and then slowly decline and come into "balance" with the land over time?  If I'm correct, SW ga had coyotes first and they moved East and North from there with Northeast GA being the last to get them.  When they entered these areas, they seemed to explode and then decline again at a rate that was consistent with how long they had been present there.  My buddies who hunt SW GA hardly ever see them anymore and they've been declining in SE Ga for some time as well (at least where I hunt).  Not long ago, the Piedmont was absolutely covered with them, but I believe they have been declining as well.
> 
> As an example, John used to kill between 10 and 28 coyotes per year on a 2000 acre Oglethorpe County farm.  He hasn't called in a single coyote this year and has had very few responses or sightings over the last 3-4 years.
> 
> I used to see between 5 and 10 per deer season and would call in several every winter.  I haven't seen a single one this entire year and have gone calling 4 times now without a response.  In fact, several people that I hunt with (all over the state) reported that this is the first year they had not seen a coyote.


This is a BIG question/series of questions, all of which we are very interested in addressing during this study. You're correct in the general pattern/timeline of their occupation of our state. However, John's coyote killing success has been negatively affected by my trapping on the neighboring property 

In all seriousness, we've heard numerous stories similar to yours from across the state, and I've even experienced it myself. It does appear that coyote populations in relatively small areas (think hunting lease sized) blink on and off periodically. We don't know if it's disease related, resource/territory availability related, or otherwise. 

So far the disease and telemetry work we've done shows that, although SE coyotes have a high exposure rate to parvo/heartworms, etc., they have a relatively high survival rate. Maybe that's because they've already gotten past the high mortality period typically associated with early life when we collar them. So far, most die by car, then by gunshot. I wish I had more information to share here, but the "metapopulation" type questions you pose are ones we hope to find some answers to during this work.


Hammer Spank said:


> Personally, I enjoy having them.  They are extremely interesting critters and are wonderful to watch.  I read a study that another biologist friend forwarded to me that showed that coyote presence actually benefited turkey populations by removing more successful nest predators.


I'll never say never when it relates to wildlife as they will always make a liar out of you. However, our recent central Georgia study offered no evidence to support this hypothesis. Mesopredators such as raccoons, opossums, etc. show up very rarely in coyote scats. We've got a paper on this getting ready to be published as we speak. Coyotes eat a lot of cotton rats, soft mast, and deer, depending on season. Of course, coyote use of prey species also eaten by nest predators (interspecific competition) could have an indirect effect nest predation by reducing abundance of those predators, if you want to start venturing into ecological theory.


Hammer Spank said:


> I also have to wonder (given that it has been proven in several studies) if all of these deer hunters randomly shooting the coyotes they see aren't artificially causing a population explosion.


Don't know. But, I can say that removal of certain animals from the population does have the potential to upset territory stability within a given area. What results from that, and how it affects predation rates, is a whole 'nother animal.


----------



## Hammer Spank

Great stuff!

I'm very interested to see the conclusions you draw at the end of all of this.  You've really put a hurting on John's winter time activities.  He spends more time shed hunting now than anything else....but I don't think he minds.


----------



## UrbanSongDogSniper

WGulsby said:


> Coyotes have been shot, trapped, poisoned, diseased, and had bounties placed on their heads for longer than we've been alive and there's now more of them than ever.



Spread mange(?) in the Fall, and canine parvo-virus in the late Spring for a widespread wipeout. 

Since you're from Athens, didn't the UGA vet school researchers get involved with Merck and the Texas DNR a while back with such a program, or similar ?


----------



## WGulsby

UrbanSongDogSniper said:


> Spread mange(?) in the Fall, and canine parvo-virus in the late Spring for a widespread wipeout.
> 
> Since you're from Athens, didn't the UGA vet school researchers get involved with Merck and the Texas DNR a while back with such a program, or similar ?


Aside from the obvious legal and ethical issues associated with purposely introducing diseases that affect a wide variety of non-target species, this would have little impact. 

We tested a sample of Georgia coyotes in 2011 and 2012 for heartworms, parvo, distemper, and canine adenovirus. 100% had been exposed to parvo, half had been exposed to distemper, and about 37% had been exposed to adenovirus. Sixteen had adult heartworms.

We didn't look at mange prevalence specifically, but I can tell you from personally handling and observing hundreds of coyotes that mange is also widespread throughout the population. It seems that most suffer from it throughout late spring and summer, then recover and regrow relatively healthy coats by fall/winter. Up north, mange may be a more significant mortality source, but I don't know. Bottom line is coyotes are exposed to and contract a wide variety of diseases in the Southeast, but their populations remain strong.


----------



## Hammer Spank

What about the new evidence of mice being a significant contributor to the loss of eggs in clutches of ground nesting birds?  I just saw one that showed that mice were the number one raider of nests of prairie chickens over foxes, coyotes, weasels, skunks, badgers, etc?  I know for certain that coyotes have a very large impact on rodent populations.  I've watched them hunt them very successfully in beaver swamps and grown up fields.  Couldn't this benefit to turkeys outweigh the very small amount of predation that they actually do?


----------



## WGulsby

Hammer Spank said:


> What about the new evidence of mice being a significant contributor to the loss of eggs in clutches of ground nesting birds?  I just saw one that showed that mice were the number one raider of nests of prairie chickens over foxes, coyotes, weasels, skunks, badgers, etc?  I know for certain that coyotes have a very large impact on rodent populations.  I've watched them hunt them very successfully in beaver swamps and grown up fields.  Couldn't this benefit to turkeys outweigh the very small amount of predation that they actually do?


Before I go any further, I'll admit that I'm not well read on avian nest predation. Without a doubt, coyotes love mice and other rodents, and likely have some effect on their populations. However, I have heard that rodent populations are more affected by environmental factors (say rainfall in a given year) than predation. Also, I think it's still pretty widely accepted that snakes and raccoons are the primary nest predators in the Southeast, with all other animals ranking far behind. Thus, I wouldn't expect the hypothesis you state to have much support. If you have a link to the article, I'd be interested to see it.


----------



## Hammer Spank

I'm just throwing out some ideas that may open some minds.


----------



## bulldawgborn

WGulsby said:


> I'll never say never when it relates to wildlife as they will always make a liar out of you. However, our recent central Georgia study offered no evidence to support this hypothesis. Mesopredators such as raccoons, opossums, etc. show up very rarely in coyote scats. We've got a paper on this getting ready to be published as we speak. Coyotes eat a lot of cotton rats, soft mast, and deer, depending on season. Of course, coyote use of prey species also eaten by nest predators (interspecific competition) could have an indirect effect nest predation by reducing abundance of those predators, if you want to start venturing into ecological theory.
> .



I often wonder how the coyote population around my property would be impacted if I were to start trapping and killing the abundant grey fox I have in the area.   I currently see numerous fox throughout the year, but I only get a few trail cam pics of coyotes.  Coyote scat is not as easy to find on my property as fox scat.  It seems to me the fox are doing well in their niche on the land I hunt, and my hypothesis is removing them would open things up for the coyotes to get a better foothold.  Maybe my reasoning is completely erroneous, but I'm willing to sacrifice a few chickens a year if it will save 1 fawn.


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## nockemstiff

A very interesting thread. Thanks.


----------



## WGulsby

bulldawgborn said:


> I often wonder how the coyote population around my property would be impacted if I were to start trapping and killing the abundant grey fox I have in the area.   I currently see numerous fox throughout the year, but I only get a few trail cam pics of coyotes.  Coyote scat is not as easy to find on my property as fox scat.  It seems to me the fox are doing well in their niche on the land I hunt, and my hypothesis is removing them would open things up for the coyotes to get a better foothold.  Maybe my reasoning is completely erroneous, but I'm willing to sacrifice a few chickens a year if it will save 1 fawn.


It sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on what's going on with your property. I don't have any concrete evidence to support it, but I do know from personal experience and from talking to professional trappers that areas with abundant fox populations often have fewer coyotes. However, I don't think it's the fox keeping the coyotes out, but rather there's simply not enough coyotes there yet to kill and/or drive the fox away.


----------



## JohnK

It would seem that more people on a hunting forum would appreciate coyotes for their hunting value. 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, no danger of depleting the resource, no whining about where you go or the trophy potential, no dragging, no gutting, no processing fees.......try it, you may like it.


----------



## C.Killmaster

JohnK said:


> It would seem that more people on a hunting forum would appreciate coyotes for their hunting value. 365 days a year, 24 hours a day, no danger of depleting the resource, no whining about where you go or the trophy potential, no dragging, no gutting, no processing fees.......try it, you may like it.



If coyotes grew antlers and tasted like steak, they would.


----------



## piebald charlie

*doncha just love our dnr 'canis latrans' reps????*

This being my first post ever, I would like to add to Travis' comments about the useless DNR, tax payer funded, outsourced studies. Yes, outsourced. The best part is OUR tax money goes to pay for a state agency to subcontract the work when we're paying our reps to do the work themselves.
Another caveat is that according to our own State DNR agency, the purpose of this study is to help us assist the public MANAGING COYOTE POPULATIONS. Funny how our ancestors believed in outright eradication (and it worked). Now we have a mess that will NEVER be fixed except in microcosmic capacities.
I've been trying to track down the DNR biologist in charge of coyote research and the answer I've received (after the uh, what is canis latrans?) is that there is no biologist in charge of studying coyotes. When I asked if there is an official DNR 'go to guy' for coyotes, I had to threaten to file a freedom of information act to even be given the  name of someone who could maybe help get me steered in the right direction finding this person' (if they exist). WOW!
More comments on this later as I gain information, or feel free to read one of many posts my friends or I will be adding to the main deer and turkey hunting threads (they are the most used) over the next few weeks.
This has been a message from the HUNTER LIVES MATTER, power to the people coalition.


----------



## piebald charlie

*.......... and another thing*

"1 in 3 hunters killing a coyote is not a huge stretch. Remember that there are 325,000 deer hunters compared to 1,500 trappers." - CHARLIE KILLMASTER

REALLY, CHARLIE????????

This is no means intended as an attack on Mr. Killmaster, however, is it not completely deceiving (and likely false) to put out a statistic that says one in three hunters kills a coyote every year? I will bet my house that this is not the case. I don't know ANYONE who can say that one out of every three hunters they know kills a coyote every year. IN FACT less than half the hunters I've encountered have even killed a coyote..... EVER. I've only killed one with my bow and I've seen dozens while hunting. BTW, I spend over 1000 hours a year in the woods and I work a regular job, too.
Advice:
If you are estimating something of such great importance, then PLEASE ESTIMATE CLOSER TO REALITY AND DO I AT A MUCH LOWER, SAFER, MORE REALISTIC RATE.

-this has been a message from the HUNTER LIVES MATTER, power to the people coalition.


----------



## C.Killmaster

piebald charlie said:


> "1 in 3 hunters killing a coyote is not a huge stretch. Remember that there are 325,000 deer hunters compared to 1,500 trappers." - CHARLIE KILLMASTER
> 
> REALLY, CHARLIE????????
> 
> This is no means intended as an attack on Mr. Killmaster, however, is it not completely deceiving (and likely false) to put out a statistic that says one in three hunters kills a coyote every year? I will bet my house that this is not the case. I don't know ANYONE who can say that one out of every three hunters they know kills a coyote every year. IN FACT less than half the hunters I've encountered have even killed a coyote..... EVER. I've only killed one with my bow and I've seen dozens while hunting. BTW, I spend over 1000 hours a year in the woods and I work a regular job, too.
> Advice:
> If you are estimating something of such great importance, then PLEASE ESTIMATE CLOSER TO REALITY AND DO I AT A MUCH LOWER, SAFER, MORE REALISTIC RATE.
> 
> -this has been a message from the HUNTER LIVES MATTER, power to the people coalition.



Here's a similar question asked of forum members, 42% killed at least one coyote:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=767422&highlight=how+many+coyotes+did+you+kill


----------



## C.Killmaster

piebald charlie said:


> This being my first post ever, I would like to add to Travis' comments about the useless DNR, tax payer funded, outsourced studies. Yes, outsourced. The best part is OUR tax money goes to pay for a state agency to subcontract the work when we're paying our reps to do the work themselves.
> Another caveat is that according to our own State DNR agency, the purpose of this study is to help us assist the public MANAGING COYOTE POPULATIONS. Funny how our ancestors believed in outright eradication (and it worked). Now we have a mess that will NEVER be fixed except in microcosmic capacities.
> I've been trying to track down the DNR biologist in charge of coyote research and the answer I've received (after the uh, what is canis latrans?) is that there is no biologist in charge of studying coyotes. When I asked if there is an official DNR 'go to guy' for coyotes, I had to threaten to file a freedom of information act to even be given the  name of someone who could maybe help get me steered in the right direction finding this person' (if they exist). WOW!
> More comments on this later as I gain information, or feel free to read one of many posts my friends or I will be adding to the main deer and turkey hunting threads (they are the most used) over the next few weeks.
> This has been a message from the HUNTER LIVES MATTER, power to the people coalition.



Our furbearer biologist is Greg Waters.  However, due to the impacts of coyotes on deer, I have had a lot to do with coyote research over the last several years as the state deer biologist.

What you term "outsourcing" is actually a collaborative research effort between UGA and WRD and the costs of the research are shared by both entities.  Much of our biologists time is spent collecting and analyzing data to inform management decisions, planning and conducting habitat management, and interacting with and assisting the public.  This leaves little room for single-handedly conducting intensive research projects.  By working with UGA, we not only get the expertise of the professors for the experimental design, but get graduate students (much cheaper than biologists) to conduct the work.  Research conducted in this manner can be accomplished for roughly half of what it cost for WRD alone to conduct.


----------



## piebald charlie

*42% of .............*

....more like 42% of RESPONDENTS. That, I do believe, is a likely statistic you were able to obtain, especially when one considers the very low sample size. Whether or not I believe all the respondents were truthful is a completely unrelated, topic.
However, I do find it preposterous for you to take such a low sample size and then to further that as your theorem. Especially when the mass public counts on the advice of our so-called state specialists to provide accurate, intelligent, SCIENTIFIC data. You and your team either prescribe to sound scientific methods or you don't, and to be honest, that type of science goes against everything I learned in pre-med.
Furthermore, since you seem to be the go to person, as only one other state representative has been tasked with such an important issue, I would very much appreciate you providing a method for the public, tax paying community to obtain any past research on canis latrans that our state has performed since the explosion occurred in the mid-1990's. If none is available, it would really be great to know why. If it's because none has ever been performed, it would really be great to know why.
Please do not take this as combative in nature, it is however, the voice of frustration.

this has been a message from HUNTER LIVES MATTER, power to the people coalition


----------



## piebald charlie

*and also please explain...*

why dnr has stated that the results of this study will assist dnr with informing the public about how to MANAGE COYOTES? Why would dnr choose to MANAGE a proven INVASIVE species. Should we also manage other destructive, invasive species? There is a long list of destruction left by these species, ie, the american chestnut story.

The fact of the matter is, you can not substantiate MANAGING anything that accounts for an 80% reduction of fawn recruitment, and this number IS CONSERVATIVE. That is.... unless the objective is to utilize canis predation as THE PRIMARY method of cervid population control. That wouldn't have anything to do with it, would it?

PS, I'm over and out, have a very happy EASTER!


----------



## C.Killmaster

piebald charlie said:


> why dnr has stated that the results of this study will assist dnr with informing the public about how to MANAGE COYOTES? Why would dnr choose to MANAGE a proven INVASIVE species. Should we also manage other destructive, invasive species? There is a long list of destruction left by these species, ie, the american chestnut story.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, you can not substantiate MANAGING anything that accounts for an 80% reduction of fawn recruitment, and this number IS CONSERVATIVE. That is.... unless the objective is to utilize canis predation as THE PRIMARY method of cervid population control. That wouldn't have anything to do with it, would it?
> 
> PS, I'm over and out, have a very happy EASTER!



Actually, I'm out.  I don't see this discussion heading anywhere positive, so I'm done with it.


----------



## Resica

C.Killmaster said:


> Actually, I'm out.  I don't see this discussion heading anywhere positive, so I'm done with it.



Can't win for losing sometimes Mr. Killmaster. Thanks for attempting to educate folks.


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## JohnK

Anyone who is in a club where one out of three deer hunters killed a coyote last year? I don't think we have ever killed three total while deer hunting in 7 years with around 50 hunters. Most I ever killed was 7 on the club and I was calling out of deer season.


----------



## WGulsby

piebald charlie said:


> why dnr has stated that the results of this study will assist dnr with informing the public about how to MANAGE COYOTES? Why would dnr choose to MANAGE a proven INVASIVE species. Should we also manage other destructive, invasive species? There is a long list of destruction left by these species, ie, the american chestnut story.
> 
> The fact of the matter is, you can not substantiate MANAGING anything that accounts for an 80% reduction of fawn recruitment, and this number IS CONSERVATIVE. That is.... unless the objective is to utilize canis predation as THE PRIMARY method of cervid population control. That wouldn't have anything to do with it, would it?
> 
> PS, I'm over and out, have a very happy EASTER!


Join date of 2012 yet only 4 posts, all in this thread. That being said, I'll attempt to address some of your concerns. 

Coyotes cannot be controlled or eradicated. This point has been made abundantly clear throughout the western states where they're native. Thus, the term "manage". The very best we can hope for is to "manage" coyote impacts when they affect our ability to achieve other wildlife management objectives. 

Regarding your last point- are you honestly suggesting DNR's goal is to allow coyotes to assume the role of hunters in managing deer populations? You do realize that deer hunters are DNR's primary, most valuable customer, right? Coyotes don't buy hunting licenses. What incentive would DNR have to take this route?


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## Hannibal

*Cable Restraints Outcatch Legholds 3:1*

USDA/Aphis studies have proven year after year Cable Restraints consistently boast a 3:1 catch over leghold traps. They are also much easier for a person to learn to trap with. The learning curve is much less. I completely agree with Travis, they just need to give us trappers all of the tools we need to do our job more effectively. If the DNR is SERIOUS about "managing" the coyote population here in Ga. they would allow us to use the CR's. 39 other states in the US. already do. Especially in urban areas. They are very selective, do not use lures as an attractant and can be set to target the coyote more so than a leghold trap. See my video below. Myself and Travis had a meeting in Perry, Ga. with the DNR about Cable Restraints. Everytime we bring it up, they and the guys that run deer with dogs and the Georgia Trappers Association shoots it down for no reason other than saying we might catch a dog. No scientific basis whatsoever. To be fair, the Senior Biologist for the DNR did say that he was all for the use of CR's for all Furbearers. John Bowers says it's a social issue. It is NOT a social issue! It is a Wildlife Management and Disease Issue. Mr. Bowers stated that his office is in the Captiol downtown and he talks with or gets calls from HSUS Lobbyists nearly everyday. This concerns me very much, and I'll let each one of you make of that what you will. All of the 39 other states allow CR's and it's not a "social issue" with them or we would have heard about it. The GTA says that one dog gets caught and we'll lose all of our trapping rights. I call CensoredCensored on that. I believe all the DNR cares about is it's deer herd because that is where it's Golden Goose is. With 1500 or so trappers it is extremely important that we have all the tools, CR's to do our jobs more efficiently. By using Cable Restraints AND Leghold traps together, we would have a much greater impact on managing the population. I trap two of the largest cattle farms in Ga. One in Walton County and one in Newton. These cattle are the landowner's livelihood. The loss of one calf cost the landowner roughly $850, a pregnant heifer, $1500. During the last 3 birthing seasons I have taken roughly 52 coyotes off of this one Walton Farm. I sat down with him last weekend and he told me he had see a dramatic increase in his deer, turkey and number of calves surviving to maturity. I went back to set traps this past January and found ONE set of coyote tracks coming in on the major travelways to the farm. I put out 4 cameras for 3 weeks and got ONE coyote coming in to an old cow carcass. I haven't even set a trap there this year. I went back last weekend and checked and still only one set of tracks in the main funnel. That is over a year with no significant fill in on what is a major food source for coyotes in a 5-10 mile radius. The reality is that I set traps in January and leave them until May. I catch the resident dogs and then the transients as they move thru on their 5-10 mile circuit. After the residents, I might not have a catch for 7 days but I know they are coming. By  hitting the coyotes hard the last 3 years, I have substantially increased the profit margin of this landowner's bottom line to his breeding business. When the calves are weaned, he has a guy with a large trailer come down from Kansas, packs it full of calves and sells them all across the Midwest. Last year in one of my major funnels, I caught 5 female coyotes in a week and a half. 3 were pregnant and two were nursing. All healthy female coyotes will breed. The idea that only the alphas do is a myth and has been debunked by science. How do you think Georgia has become so overpopulated with mass migrations into subdivisions and places like Atlanta. I collaborate with a group of Urban Coyote Researchers in a midwestern state and we share research and findings. They contacted me after reading some of my articles and said that what I was seeing and reporting here in Ga. is congruent with what their research is showing in their state. They are performing urban coyote research around one of the largest cities in the US. I would also ask that you read my other post in here. *"The Fatal Coyote Disease Worse Than Rabies." Another main reason we need CR's to help us Trappers manage the Coyote populations more efficiently, take them out in a more timely manner and move on to the next property.*

Oh, one last point. We all know how the weather is here in Ga. How many times have you been washed out on your trapline. With Cable Restraints, neither rain nor snow affects them and they are still set, ready to catch fur even during the worst of storms.


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