# Tithes...



## goob (Mar 1, 2015)

Tithes.... Im not asking how much everybody gives... Does your family go by percent?


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## au7126 (Mar 1, 2015)

10% is the start point off the top and always end the year + that. Might seem hard to begin but I can say what you have left will last longer and go further.


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## goob (Mar 1, 2015)

au7126 said:


> 10% is the start point off the top and always end the year + that. Might seem hard to begin but I can say what you have left will last longer and go further.



What made you come to that percent? I know The Bible talks about the 10th animal under is holy or whatever, but how did you come to it?


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## au7126 (Mar 1, 2015)

Early teaching in church and believe I have been tested and found it to be the best for me and my house. I go back and read Malachi 3-10 often and have found these words to have meat and meaning.


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## groundhawg (Mar 1, 2015)

au7126 said:


> 10% is the start point off the top and always end the year + that. Might seem hard to begin but I can say what you have left will last longer and go further.



Amen Brother.  Have to give 10% and then offerings above that as we are able too.  Can never out give God!


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2015)

What are the Biblical reasons of tithes? I mean does Scripture tell us what Churches should do with tithes?
Should they use it to operate the Church, mission work, or help feed and clothe people? I like the idea of disaster relief but what is Biblical?


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## rjcruiser (Mar 2, 2015)

The tithe is really a thing of the OT and not a part of the NT church. In the OT....there are 3 Tithes of 10% each. 2 were to be given annually and one every 3rd year...so...if you are going to follow the OT tithe, you really need to give 23.3%. 

If you look at the NT church, it is even more sacrificial. Look at Acts 4:32-37. These early Christians gave a lot....wherever there was need. 

So no...I don't base it off of %.  I give where it is needed...both of $ and of time.


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 2, 2015)

Personally, I have a 10% low value based on scripture in Malachi; however, I've not given less than 17-18% in a long time. The way I see it, none of it's my money anyway; when you have that mindset it's easy to give what some might consider "over and above." Me, I feel that it's my reasonable service.

I feel the biblical reason for tithing is simply to try and mold us to be more like Jesus. God doesn't need the money, and I firmly resist those that claims he does. I don't think it's necessarily for "running" the church; again, God can care for that. The only think I'm left with is that giving makes people to be more like Jesus, which is the namesake of Christianity.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 2, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Personally, I have a 10% low value based on scripture in Malachi; however, I've not given less than 17-18% in a long time. The way I see it, none of it's my money anyway; when you have that mindset it's easy to give what some might consider "over and above." Me, I feel that it's my reasonable service.
> 
> I feel the biblical reason for tithing is simply to try and mold us to be more like Jesus. God doesn't need the money, and I firmly resist those that claims he does. I don't think it's necessarily for "running" the church; again, God can care for that. The only think I'm left with is that giving makes people to be more like Jesus, which is the namesake of Christianity.



Not that I see anything wrong with your logic but you make it seem like the reason to tithe is for sacrifice.


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not that I see anything wrong with your logic but you make it seem like the reason to tithe is for sacrifice.



I would define sacrifice as having to do without something to my detriment; I have yet to reach a time when giving to the Lord has left me wanting.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 2, 2015)

For those that use Malachi as direction to tithe, where do you get your percentage?  I don't see any percentage given in Malachi.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 2, 2015)

You aren't giving to God by tithing, you're financially supporting your church. There is no New Testament command to tithe, so give to your church as you feel you should.


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## groundhawg (Mar 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You aren't giving to God by tithing, you're financially supporting your church. There is no New Testament command to tithe, so give to your church as you feel you should.



Is there a New Testament command to stop tithing?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 2, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Is there a New Testament to stop tithing?



I believe so, by biblical definition of tithing.  But there is a reality, and that is it takes money to operate a church, and it needs donations. I believe we should financially support our church, but no man can point to the bible and say it is a commandment in the new testament church.

I like how Jonathan Welton handled this study in his blog here:http://disruptingculture.com/


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## au7126 (Mar 2, 2015)

Now really are we trying to find an excuse for not giving? I was a part of a church that had one Sunday each year that "encour aged" giving 90%. That was a real separate the in from the out. Must say the extra income was used in extra ministries that brought good results. I believe we are to tithe and we NEED to know the $ is going to Gods work. This causes much heartburn when I know leaders are misusing the income.


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## groundhawg (Mar 2, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe so, by biblical definition of tithing.  But there is a reality, and that is it takes money to operate a church, and it needs donations. I believe we should financially support our church, but no man can point to the bible and say it is a commandment in the new testament church.
> 
> I like how Jonathan Welton handled this study in his blog here:http://disruptingculture.com/



Also you can not find where there is NT commandment not to.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 2, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Also you can not find where there is NT commandment not to.



I put that in the category of the law being fulfIlled. That's my opinion, I'm not going to argue with people that want to practice Old Covenant law on this subject.


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## dieselengine9 (Mar 2, 2015)

Is the 10% before or after you "render unto Caesar?"


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## JB0704 (Mar 2, 2015)

dieselengine9 said:


> Is the 10% before or after you "render unto Caesar?"



DEpends on who you ask.  I tend to think this is the applicable scripture to NT Church:



> 2 Corinthians 9:6  Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously.  7  Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.



Seems any numerical mandate is compelling the giver.  Kind-a like many churches who make their employees tithe or be fired   I always found that an odd practice.

That being said, to me, it would seem kind-a wrong to attend a church, use their building and services, and not support it if at all possible.  If you like having a preacher, he's gotta eat somehow......and we don't pay folks with grain anymore.


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## Bob2010 (Mar 3, 2015)

I am going to have dedicate some time to form a biblical view of the tithe.  This is very much something I have been taught and not studied a lot. I was taught tithe starts at 10% old testament.  New testament calls for what ever we feel called to give beyond that. I was taught that New testament does not make the old testament invalid.  If anything New testament makes our responsibility greater across the board. Not just in the tithe.  That being said do you tithe before or after you pay taxes? Etc? Here is what I know from experience.  Our church has several programs and things available to my family at no cost. They need funds to operate.  My family tithes and then we pray about other areas to give funds to. We sometimes give more than what feels comfortable if we feel called to do so. The more I treat my family funds as I am a manager of God's money the more God blesses my family.  The more time I have to spend with my family and it keeps getting easier to provide for my family.  Good paying projects arrive for my business.  Not from advertising, chasing,  and competing with everyone.  It often seems like God says this job is for you.  It seems he rewards us financially for trying to be loyal to him. To give when God says give. I used to never give a homeless man money.  Lost cause! Money is going to booze or drugs. I decided when it was really cold to change that. I felt God wanted me to help but to require a quick conversation and prayer before giving a small amount to help. I had a great conversation with one old man. He prayed with me like he had waited years to pray with someone.  Maybe the money went to booze? I don't know. God said give and I know a seed was planted in that old man. It's not my money to decide how God wants to use it. Was God concerned about the money or the prayer that man prayed?  Who am I to decide.  God said stop and give. So I did. The tithe is the same to me. God will work with the funds I give. Funds may not always be used as God wants it to be used. But God can use Funds going to the wrong place to bring himself glory in the end. I need to study his more. I have a mission organization that we use to organize trips for my crew. This year it seems the organization wants to make profit off of our trip. My views are the salaries of those in the mission organization should be covered by donations and faith offerings from churches that support them. Not the actual missionaries that are going on a trip. Three years in with 13 people heading out soon for the trip. That is a slippery slope to adress. Does that mean God is not working through that organization or lives are not being saved on the trips they lead? Certainly not! It's a great group with a great impact on the people. This is a great place for me to start my own study of scripture.


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## groundhawg (Mar 3, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I put that in the category of the law being fulfIlled. That's my opinion, I'm not going to argue with people that want to practice Old Covenant law on this subject.



What about other Old Covenant Law(s), do you just pick and choose which of those to follow or follow none?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 3, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> What about other Old Covenant Law(s), do you just pick and choose which of those to follow or follow none?



I follow none. The Law is fulfilled, I follow Christ.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> For those that use Malachi as direction to tithe, where do you get your percentage?  I don't see any percentage given in Malachi.



Anyone?



au7126 said:


> Now really are we trying to find an excuse for not giving? I was a part of a church that had one Sunday each year that "encour aged" giving 90%. That was a real separate the in from the out. Must say the extra income was used in extra ministries that brought good results. I believe we are to tithe and we NEED to know the $ is going to Gods work. This causes much heartburn when I know leaders are misusing the income.



I don't think so....and I don't think anyone with a NT view of giving thinks we as Christians shouldn't give.  I think it requires us to give sacrificially...which in some cases is greater than 10% and in others, maybe not.

And yes, leaders misusing the income/offering gives me much heartburn as well...but I do know that God will take care of it as He did the money launderers in the temple.



dieselengine9 said:


> Is the 10% before or after you "render unto Caesar?"



Well...if you look at the Tithe in the OT, they didn't have Ceaser to render to.  The Tithe was the tax.



groundhawg said:


> What about other Old Covenant Law(s), do you just pick and choose which of those to follow or follow none?



Do you worship on Saturday?  Do you sacrifice goats?  Do you eat pork? Were you circumcised on the 8th day?

Hebrews is a great book on how to deal with OT Covenant Laws.


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## JB0704 (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I think it requires us to give sacrificially...which in some cases is greater than 10% and in others, maybe not.



Yes.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 3, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.



I think that thinking like this is transformational in the church.  Really, it isn't just "giving or tithing," it is in everything related to our Christian walks.  Christ wants 100%.

We want to put a check list on our faith.  So we can feel like we've done enough...that we've passed the test.  If you look at Acts 4:32-37...these NT believers mentioned...gave way more than 10%.  Yet, there had to be many that gave nothing monetary and received the gifts from others.  That being said, they gave with different things.

So don't limit yourself to a %.  Give sacrificially.  Don't give to gain praise like Ananias & Saphira...give to meet the needs of others.  Mow the widows grass next door.  Go to the funeral of the loved one of someone in your SS class.  Make a meal for someone who just had surgery.  Giving is way more than just a %.


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## JB0704 (Mar 3, 2015)

RJ, I am in 100% agreement with ya......doesn't happen too often on here


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## rjcruiser (Mar 3, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> RJ, I am in 100% agreement with ya......doesn't happen too often on here





I think we have more in common than just that.

But...can you tell what I'm studying right now?  We're going through Acts in SS....so...kinda fresh on my mind.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2015)

I think if you just make a $1,000 "vow of faith" to Robert Tilton, you're good.


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## JB0704 (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I think we have more in common than just that.



Yea, I know.  I just remember some of the debates we've had, a while back......common ground was hard to come by back then 



rjcruiser said:


> But...can you tell what I'm studying right now?  We're going through Acts in SS....so...kinda fresh on my mind.



Acts is good stuff.  I love learning about the early church.  The problem is that it doesn't help when I compare what we have today to what we had then.  Then I get frustrated when I realize that very, very few people even care.  It's all about Sunday morning.......and the concept of community is lost.  Even though I have been extremely blessed in life with lots of wonderful friends, I miss community.

I need to stop before I jump on a soap box here.......


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## EverGreen1231 (Mar 3, 2015)

I have done a little more reading, and I've yet to find mention of a percentage in the new dispensational text. I guess I'd fall under the category now of finding out how much I would have to give to make it seem unwise, and give a little more. I've always found it somehow disingenuous to limit to a percent anyway. I'm going to do more extensive reading about this, so my current stance remains nebulous for the time being.


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## JB0704 (Mar 3, 2015)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I have done a little more reading, and I've yet to find mention of a percentage in the new dispensational text. I guess I'd fall under the category now of finding out how much I would have to give to make it seem unwise, and give a little more. I've always found it somehow disingenuous to limit to a percent anyway. I'm going to do more extensive reading about this, so my current stance remains nebulous for the time being.



The 10% comes from the OT where folks would give a % of their crops to feed the priests, I do believe.

The NT seems kind-a clear on the matter to me......but, that could just be arrogance on my part since there is defiitely a majority of Christians who think 10% is the base.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 3, 2015)

Let me say this....I'm friends with several in this thread that seem to believe differently.  While I'm an anti-Tithe type of person, I don't believe it to be a big issue or hill to die on type of doctrinal stance.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Let me say this....I'm friends with several in this thread that seem to believe differently.  While I'm an anti-Tithe type of person, I don't believe it to be a big issue or hill to die on type of doctrinal stance.



Very good! I'm the same way until some Pastor wants to beat up his congregation about it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 3, 2015)

dieselengine9 said:


> Is the 10% before or after you "render unto Caesar?"



Fair question.  If the IRS takes based on Gross then God gets at least that much.  Wouldn't want them thinking they're special.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> I am going to have dedicate some time to form a biblical view of the tithe.  This is very much something I have been taught and not studied a lot. I was taught tithe starts at 10% old testament.  New testament calls for what ever we feel called to give beyond that. I was taught that New testament does not make the old testament invalid.  If anything New testament makes our responsibility greater across the board. Not just in the tithe.  That being said do you tithe before or after you pay taxes? Etc? Here is what I know from experience.  Our church has several programs and things available to my family at no cost. They need funds to operate.  My family tithes and then we pray about other areas to give funds to. We sometimes give more than what feels comfortable if we feel called to do so. The more I treat my family funds as I am a manager of God's money the more God blesses my family.  The more time I have to spend with my family and it keeps getting easier to provide for my family.  Good paying projects arrive for my business.  Not from advertising, chasing,  and competing with everyone.  It often seems like God says this job is for you.  It seems he rewards us financially for trying to be loyal to him. To give when God says give. I used to never give a homeless man money.  Lost cause! Money is going to booze or drugs. I decided when it was really cold to change that. I felt God wanted me to help but to require a quick conversation and prayer before giving a small amount to help. I had a great conversation with one old man. He prayed with me like he had waited years to pray with someone.  Maybe the money went to booze? I don't know. God said give and I know a seed was planted in that old man. It's not my money to decide how God wants to use it. Was God concerned about the money or the prayer that man prayed?  Who am I to decide.  God said stop and give. So I did. The tithe is the same to me. God will work with the funds I give. Funds may not always be used as God wants it to be used. But God can use Funds going to the wrong place to bring himself glory in the end. I need to study his more. I have a mission organization that we use to organize trips for my crew. This year it seems the organization wants to make profit off of our trip. My views are the salaries of those in the mission organization should be covered by donations and faith offerings from churches that support them. Not the actual missionaries that are going on a trip. Three years in with 13 people heading out soon for the trip. That is a slippery slope to adress. Does that mean God is not working through that organization or lives are not being saved on the trips they lead? Certainly not! It's a great group with a great impact on the people. This is a great place for me to start my own study of scripture.



This sounds like the Prosperity Preacher's sermon. God increases you personal wealth to increase his wealth. God protects your health so that you will continue to make income for him.
Sure it could be used to explain the prosperity of the Duck Dynasty family but what about, Bill Gates, Joel Osteen, Warren Buffet, Oprah Winfrey, and George Soros?

It appears God's rain falls on the just and unjust!


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 3, 2015)

I think JB hinted at the heart of it with

Quote:
2 Corinthians 9:6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7 Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.


Money flows in the direction of the heart's desires, and that's true regarding everyone and everything in life.  You want to know what's in a mans heart, study his cash flow.   It's really that simple.  

The hard question is "What does this say about you?"


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 3, 2015)

I still don't understand the relation of tithing as a way of making a personal sacrifice?
How much must a person give up to make enough sacrifices to become Christ like?
I worked with a guy who wore long sleeve shirts in the summertime as a personal sacrifice. Is it related to something like that or self flogging?

This wouldn't work under the prosperity belief as God would just bless you with more money faster than you could give it away.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 3, 2015)

I'll ask it again...can any one who believes in 10% tithe show me in scripture where that is coming from?  So far, Malachi has been referenced which has no %.  The NT has been referenced that shows no %.

Beuller?  Beuller?


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## formula1 (Mar 3, 2015)

*Re:*

JB's scripture (2 Corinthians 9:6-7) is a good one!  Here are some more related ones to ponder:

Luke 6:38
38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.

Luke 11:42  
But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and every herb, and neglect justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 

Matthew 6
19 Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal, 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

For me personally, it was an amazing revelation for me to realize that God loved me and blessed my life whether I was tithing, giving lots more, or nothing at all.  And it took me years to understand it!

You can't gain points by tithing nor can you lose them by not tithing.  You have already received God's free gift of grace so you have all you need! So why stress over it, why make it a rule or law, you gain nothing by punishing yourself to keep rules, and in pride of your self-righteousness you will punish others as well. And either you live fully in the righteousness of Christ or you are building your own righteousness.  For me, I know I have NO righteousness outside of Christ!  

God Bless!


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## Jeetdawg (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll ask it again...can any one who believes in 10% tithe show me in scripture where that is coming from?  So far, Malachi has been referenced which has no %.  The NT has been referenced that shows no %.
> 
> Beuller?  Beuller?[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## centerpin fan (Mar 3, 2015)

This is one of those topics where people come out of the woodwork to comment.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 3, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> This is one of those topics where people come out of the woodwork to comment.


After all, there is a real sense in which this topic can impact one's beer budget... in a real and meaningful way.


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## Jeetdawg (Mar 3, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> This is one of those topics where people come out of the woodwork to comment.



Hey... Longtime viewer just don't post much.  I love to see the good discussions in here, though at times, they seem to be more about who is right than honest discussion.  As long as we are glorifying the Lord, I am all in


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## stringmusic (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll ask it again...can any one who believes in 10% tithe show me in scripture where that is coming from?  So far, Malachi has been referenced which has no %.  The NT has been referenced that shows no %.
> 
> Beuller?  Beuller?



I'm not a 10%'er so I'm just throwing this out there. 

From my understanding tithe means 1/10 or 10%, so I'm guessing that's where the hat gets hung so far as the Malachi reference is concerned.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 3, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll ask it again...can any one who believes in 10% tithe show me in scripture where that is coming from?  So far, Malachi has been referenced which has no %.  The NT has been referenced that shows no %.
> 
> Beuller?  Beuller?



RJ

Tithe literally means 10%.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 3, 2015)

Just something to think about, this tidbit comes from the link 
I provided earlier in the conversation.

_There have been other even more vocal leaders such as Frank Viola and George Barna in their bestselling book, Pagan Christianity, Pages 171-186. They include the facts regarding church history:

“Before the 3rd century priests had no form of income. The people supported them of their own volition. If that was not possible they worked alongside their ministerial roles to support themselves. It was actually Constantine who introduced the idea of a priestly salary, which was a pagan idea. He took money from the municipal and church funds to pay those serving as priests in the empire. We have to wait till the third century before someone suggested a tithe upon believers to support their local priest. Cyprian of Carthage suggested it, however it still wasn’t really accepted by anyone until the fourth century. Even then it was a tiny minority. In fact, it wasn’t common practice till the 8th century and was not law until the 10th century. That’s right, 900 years after Jesus!”
_


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## Bob2010 (Mar 3, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> This sounds like the Prosperity Preacher's sermon. God increases you personal wealth to increase his wealth. God protects your health so that you will continue to make income for him.
> Sure it could be used to explain the prosperity of the Duck Dynasty family but what about, Bill Gates, Joel Osteen, Warren Buffet, Oprah Winfrey, and George Soros?
> 
> It appears God's rain falls on the just and unjust!



I have no clue what the dynasty family does with their money. To me depends on what you mean by prosper. God's prosperity for us is heaven. I don't have any plans of being rich. Mostly because I am not willing to dedicate the hours weekly to accomplish that task. I may end up broke one day but someone could feed me and my family.  We would be provided for even though we were broke. Really just think it's a heart change. Everything I have is Gods anyway. I keep trying to figure all this stuff out. So busy trying to figure it out when God says give I miss it. I try to make it make sense. I just need to see where God is working and do what he calls me to do. Tithing is one of those things.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 3, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> I keep trying to figure all this stuff out. So busy trying to figure it out when God says give I miss it. I try to make it make sense. I just need to see where God is working and do what he calls me to do. Tithing is one of those things.


Be encouraged! Remember that "it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure". Facing the truth about oneself is always a good thing.


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## Israel (Mar 4, 2015)

formula1 said:


> JB's scripture (2 Corinthians 9:6-7) is a good one!  Here are some more related ones to ponder:
> 
> Luke 6:38
> 38 give, and it will be given to you. Good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For with the measure you use it will be measured back to you.
> ...


Bless you brother.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> I have no clue what the dynasty family does with their money. To me depends on what you mean by prosper. God's prosperity for us is heaven. I don't have any plans of being rich. Mostly because I am not willing to dedicate the hours weekly to accomplish that task. I may end up broke one day but someone could feed me and my family.  We would be provided for even though we were broke. Really just think it's a heart change. Everything I have is Gods anyway. I keep trying to figure all this stuff out. So busy trying to figure it out when God says give I miss it. I try to make it make sense. I just need to see where God is working and do what he calls me to do. Tithing is one of those things.



True we don't own anything except our name. There is nothing wrong with giving to the Church. They got to operate somehow. The Church might need a new roof someday.

Many of the verses mentioned are about "giving." This could include the Church but not limited to the Church.
This could be money but it should include time and actions. 
I believe I recall you give time an actions. This could be working in a soup kitchen or helping an old lady cross the street.
But as you said it should be from the heart and not for show.

I get jealous when I see non-Christians with more earthly wealth than me. I get angry when I see Christians with cancer and non-Christians with great health. It kinda contradicts the prosperity message. I do listen to Dave Ramsey and he talks about God giving more money the better at stewardship one is. I understand that concept but sometimes bad things happen to good people. I've seen many a good man struggle financially and health wise not related to their stewardship or lifestyle.
This would prevent or lower their tithes.

I'll just have to agree that our rewards are not of this world. God's rain falls on the just and un-just.


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## formula1 (Mar 4, 2015)

*Re:*



Israel said:


> Bless you brother.



And also to you...beyond measure!!!


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## groundhawg (Mar 4, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll ask it again...can any one who believes in 10% tithe show me in scripture where that is coming from?  So far, Malachi has been referenced which has no %.  The NT has been referenced that shows no %.
> 
> Beuller?  Beuller?



Below are several verses about tithing and the information from Leviticus 27:30-34 gives you information on the %.

Here is a list of all the bible verses from the Old and New Testament that are about tithing.
 •Genesis 14:20 – In this bible verse, Melchizedek comes out to meet Abraham, as Abraham gives him a tithe of the spoils of his victory.
 •Genesis 28:20-22 – After the vision of God’s renewed covenant, Jacob initiates a covenant with God vowing to give him a tithe of what he receives from the promised land.
 •Leviticus 27:30-32 – The specifications of tithing is introduced into the law of Moses.
 •Numbers 18:20-32 – The tithe is dedicated the Levites for the work in the tabernacle.
 •Deuteronomy 12:5-11 – God gives instructions for what to do with the tithe once Israel crosses the Jordan.
 •Deuteronomy 14:22-29 – God gives instructions on how to disperse and exchange the tithe.
 •Deuteronomy 26:12-15 – God gives instructions on how Israel should sanctify the tithe before they can ask for a blessing.
 •2 Chronicles 31:5-12 – The children of Israel do what’s right under the reign of Hezekiah, and bring the tithes to the designated places.
 •Nehemiah 10:37-38 – Israel obeys God and brings the tithes to the storehouse.
 •Nehemiah 12:44 – Officers were appointed to watch over the tithes in the storehouse.
 •Nehemiah 13:5-12 – Nehemiah cleanses the storehouse and kicks Tobiah out of the room that was designated to store the tithe. He then restores order.
 •Amos 4:4 – God commands Israel to bring back the tithe and reiterates the curse that is upon them if they don’t.
 •Malachi 3:8-10 – God reprimands Israel for not delivering the tithe, and reiterates the blessings and curse that would be in result of whatever decision they chose.
 •Matthew 23:23 – Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier matters of the law along with tithing.
 •Luke 11:42 – A parallel bible verse of Matthew 23:23 as Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier matters of the law along with tithing.
 •Luke 18:12 – A Pharisee brags about his obedience to the law and tithing.
 •Hebrews 7:5-9 – Abraham’s tithe is used to illustrate a change concerning the priesthood.

There are many other bible verses that relate to giving and offerings, but the ones above strictly relate to tithing.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 4, 2015)

Jeetdawg said:


> An example of this is in Genesis chapter 28 with Jacob's "stairway to heaven" dream.  At the end of the chapter, he states that he will give a tenth of everything God has given him.
> 
> In Leviticus in chapter 27 verse 30-32 talks about every tenth animal from the flock being the "tithe" and holy to God
> 
> Good question and thanks for poking me to study.



You're going to cherry pick those 2 verses from that passage and get 10% from it?  Has fifths in there, tithes in there, redeeming tithes...valuation...year of jubilee etc etc.  



SemperFiDawg said:


> RJ
> 
> Tithe literally means 10%.



I understand that.  But there are a 3 different tithes the Jews were required to pay.

1. Tithe for the Levites-Numbers 18:21ff
2. Tithe for the Feasts-Deut 14:22-27
3. Tithe for the Poor-Deut 14:28-29

The first 2, are annual tithes, the last is every 3 years.  Then, there were directions on leaving grain in the corners of the fields...providing for others in need etc etc sprinkled throughout the OT Law (see Ruth for example).



groundhawg said:


> •Matthew 23:23 – Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier matters of the law along with tithing.
> •Luke 11:42 – A parallel bible verse of Matthew 23:23 as Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier matters of the law along with tithing.
> •Luke 18:12 – A Pharisee brags about his obedience to the law and tithing.
> •Hebrews 7:5-9 – Abraham’s tithe is used to illustrate a change concerning the priesthood.



I don't see how one can read these scriptures and have a positive light on tithing.  Jesus was all about pointing out the hypocrisy of the religious leaders of the day.  In those examples above, it is a negative that they kept the OT Tithes.  It was all done out of show.  They gave 10%/10%/10%...yet Jesus wanted their hearts....their entire lives...not just 10%.

And Hebrews...that passage has nothing to do with giving.  Hebrews is about what?  Jesus replacing the Levitical system and being our Great High Priest.  The Jews had big issues with that...why?  Because every high priest in the OT was a Levite right?  Wrong...Melchizadek was not a Levite.  And who paid Tithe and honor (in other words validated) Melchizadek?  Abraham---the father of all Jews.  So if anything, Hebrews is all about the Levitical OT code being replaced by Jesus.  That His death/resurrection is our atonement...and Chapter 8:13 says..."The new covenant, makes the first one obsolete."

So...tithing....obsolete.

Grace Giving....shown by Christ...shown by the early church in Acts 4 and many other places.


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## Bob2010 (Mar 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> True we don't own anything except our name. There is nothing wrong with giving to the Church. They got to operate somehow. The Church might need a new roof someday.
> 
> Many of the verses mentioned are about "giving." This could include the Church but not limited to the Church.
> This could be money but it should include time and actions.
> ...



The win or reward is heaven. Lost a friend a year ago. 3 young kids, 7 years at the oldest. 38 years old and cancer took him. He had a company in Atlanta that probably had 150 employees.  Married to his high school sweet heart. Lake house, cars, etc. He was saved through his fight with cancer.  Completely different man after salvation.  He won at everything he did. He always succeeded.  Probably lead 100 people to Christ in his last year here on earth. Everyone believed he would win against cancer. That a miracle would happen.  Cancer killed him. Christians still a year later are devistated he lost. Some just can't grasp that the win and victory was salvation. Travis won because of Christ.  That's the miracle everyone saw in scripture for Travis.  Saved for eternity not from cancer. Travis knew that though.  I am grateful for that.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 4, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> The win or reward is heaven.  Travis won because of Christ.  That's the miracle everyone saw in scripture for Travis.  Saved for eternity not from cancer. Travis knew that though.  I am grateful for that.



Amen.  Salvation and Eternity with Christ is our reward.


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## au7126 (Mar 4, 2015)

Must say lot of good interaction and thoughts. Will add a thought that was passed to me from a great pastor and mentor." You can give without loving but cannot love without giving" . Works in other areas of life also.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 4, 2015)

au7126 said:


> Must say lot of good interaction and thoughts. Will add a thought that was passed to me from a great pastor and mentor." You can give without loving but cannot love without giving" . Works in other areas of life also.



It sure does as you can give without money. You can give to others. You can give to God. You can give to yourself.


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## Bob2010 (Mar 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> It sure does as you can give without money. You can give to others. You can give to God. You can give to yourself.



All true. But if you are not willing to give God back 10% of his own money where is your heart? It's 10% not 50% or 90%.


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## Bob2010 (Mar 5, 2015)

Everything is censored.  Crazy trying to post stuff sometimes.  Have to post the link.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/tithe

 The word itself means tenth in its original language. I guess if you are a farmer like every single person was back then and you want to harvest your fields and give 10% to your church.  That's awesome!  Church gets 10% of gross sales instead of 10% of your profits.


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## JB0704 (Mar 5, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> All true. But if you are not willing to give God back 10% of his own money where is your heart? It's 10% not 50% or 90%.



If it's already God's, how do you return it?

HAd a long conversation with a man once who was befuddled at the idea that some consider feeding the poor "tithing" as well.  The mindset seemed to be that the first 10% belonged to the church........where's God in that? 

Again, if a person attends a church, I would hope they are compelled to support it.  But, the church has no claim to that support beyond what the individual determines in his heart to be right.  A preacher can stand on stage and hand out all kinds of guilt to folks for not giving 10%, but he prolly ought not be hurt if the congregant decides to send it to Africa to build wells.....or supports a local food bank with it.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 5, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> All true. But if you are not willing to give God back 10% of his own money where is your heart? It's 10% not 50% or 90%.



God doesn't want or need our money, His desire is our hearts.


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## BAR308 (Mar 5, 2015)

I'm amazed at the number of Christians that will allow themselves to be duped by hirelings behind pulpits begging for money... The tithe was part of the LAW... are you under the LAW?

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of THE LAW, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to THE LAW, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

The NT Church collected money from the 'blessed' Saints and gave it to the 'needy' Saints.  This is what Jesus instituted... Its all through the NT. When will people realize that hirelings pervert Scripture to pad their pockets, buy Bimmers... and send their kids to harvard.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 6, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> HAd a long conversation with a man once who was befuddled at the idea that some consider feeding the poor "tithing" as well.


"As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever." (2 Corinthians 9:9)


JB0704 said:


> The mindset seemed to be that the first 10% belonged to the church........where's God in that?


"Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." ((2 Corinthians 9:7)

Believers do not give by the constraint of law. God forbids it.

Where law is preached (religious tax), bondage reigns.


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## Jeetdawg (Mar 6, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> You're going to cherry pick those 2 verses from that passage and get 10% from it?  Has fifths in there, tithes in there, redeeming tithes...valuation...year of jubilee etc etc.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





You asked where someone could derive a tithe = 10% and I gave you some specific examples.  It was not an attempt to cherry pick, but to answer your question.  And you are correct, there are other parts of those verses going through the system of redemption.  All in all, you and you alone will have to stand before God and answer for what you did with the time and resources God blesses you with on his Earth.  Some of the most Godly men I have spent time around gave a significant amount of time and money serving the Lord.  A specific tithe amount wasn't even a concern for them as they had such a spirit of giving that 10% wouldn't even touch what they gave.  Give with a cheerful heart and let God sort out the rest.....he has this under control


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## Bob2010 (Mar 6, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> If it's already God's, how do you return it?
> 
> HAd a long conversation with a man once who was befuddled at the idea that some consider feeding the poor "tithing" as well.  The mindset seemed to be that the first 10% belonged to the church........where's God in that?
> 
> Again, if a person attends a church, I would hope they are compelled to support it.  But, the church has no claim to that support beyond what the individual determines in his heart to be right.  A preacher can stand on stage and hand out all kinds of guilt to folks for not giving 10%, but he prolly ought not be hurt if the congregant decides to send it to Africa to build wells.....or supports a local food bank with it.



Our church does support those things.  The giving can be tithe or for faith offering. Faith offerings all go to the needy or missionaries the church supports. If we believe it is his money then 10% as starting point to our church that provides a place of worship,  kids programs,  Wednesday night classes, etc is nothing.  I am a member of my church because I see God working there. I agree also we should give beyond 10% back. Those other areas of giving are just as important as the tithe.  Without the church there is no unity with other Christians.  If I didn't tithe I know my giving to other needs and ministries would be less. My heart would not be right. Seems if your heart is right you won't care if 10% is biblical.  You will just feel called to pay it as a starting point out of gratitude for place of worship that serves your family. Even the mega church that does pay big money to a Pastor driving a silly BMW. If you looked at how much money that church does spend on ministry it is astonishing. Or look at how many people were exposed to Christ.We see a BMW instead of millions spent on ministries.  Heart controls what we see and what we do with ( our ) own money. Not a fan of mega church for my family.  There is no doubt in my mind how much work is accomplished through God in those churches though.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2015)

Bob2010 said:


> Our church does support those things.  The giving can be tithe or for faith offering. Faith offerings all go to the needy or missionaries the church supports. If we believe it is his money then 10% as starting point to our church that provides a place of worship,  kids programs,  Wednesday night classes, etc is nothing.  I am a member of my church because I see God working there. I agree also we should give beyond 10% back. Those other areas of giving are just as important as the tithe.  Without the church there is no unity with other Christians.  If I didn't tithe I know my giving to other needs and ministries would be less. My heart would not be right. Seems if your heart is right you won't care if 10% is biblical.  You will just feel called to pay it as a starting point out of gratitude for place of worship that serves your family. Even the mega church that does pay big money to a Pastor driving a silly BMW. If you looked at how much money that church does spend on ministry it is astonishing. Or look at how many people were exposed to Christ.We see a BMW instead of millions spent on ministries.  Heart controls what we see and what we do with ( our ) own money. Not a fan of mega church for my family.  There is no doubt in my mind how much work is accomplished through God in those churches though.



I'm sure the mega church people would say 'if you provide for God, He'll provide for you. This is why our preacher drives a BMW."

Years ago there was this ministry called the PTL(Praise the Lord) Club. They had a fancy resort up in South Carolina called  Heritage USA.
They had a big television ministry. The preacher and his wife wore fancy clothes and jewelry. 
My grandmother was on a fixed income and was sending them money. The resort lost their Tax exempt status for making too much money and the preacher fell from grace in a sexual affair.

I guess one could say even Christians screw up as in the case of the brother Bakker and that is between him and God. That is to what the Bakker's provided for themselves while they provided for God. In the end God did take care of them in his on way.
But still it left a bad taste in my mouth about my poor old grandmother.


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## groundhawg (Mar 6, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm sure the mega church people would say 'if you provide for God, He'll provide for you. This is why our preacher drives a BMW."
> 
> Years ago there was this ministry called the PTL(Praise the Lord) Club. They had a fancy resort up in South Carolina called  Heritage USA.
> They had a big television ministry. The preacher and his wife wore fancy clothes and jewelry.
> ...



Why should a pastor not drive a nice car?  One bad man does not make all preachers bad.


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## JB0704 (Mar 6, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Why should a pastor not drive a nice car?  One bad man does not make all preachers bad.



Nothing wrong with a preacher getting paid well.  I have no issue with that. 

My point was that if a person gives what they believe is right it cannot have a fixed % placed on it, by anybody, and nobody has a right to call dibs on it.......it is God's right?

I have said twice in this thread that I think a person should support the church they attend.  Kind-a lame not to.  But, if a persons offerring is going to God's work, then there is no set % or direction it "has" to go.  Particularly if the standard is "what we determine to be right.....because God loves a cheerful giver."  I don't think a person sitting in the back row being guilted into writing 10% to the church is a cheerful giver........particulalry if he has determined there is another need that needs to be met with that money.

By saying it has to go to the local church, and all the extras are "on top" of that, you are taking God out of the equation and saying it is actually the church's money.  God is a heck of a lot bigger than the local church, and there be other needs needin' to be met.  At the same time, the local "mega-church" might be cutting the benevolence fund in order to give the pastor a BMW.  There are just too many variables to say it belongs in one place, and is a certain %.

Again........so I am clear.......I honestly believe preachers should be paid well, and, as long as their salary is set by the congregation via public vote or elders, I don't care how high it is.  If a pastor is hiding his salary from the congregation, he doesn't trust them.  It's a communal pool of resources being deligated, the community should know how that is done.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Why should a pastor not drive a nice car?  One bad man does not make all preachers bad.



If he is giving all he feels from his heart and still feels like he needs a nice car then he should drive a nice car. If God blesses people who bless God then that is between him and God. 
I don't feel that the pastor should make his congregation make financial sacrifices that he himself isn't willing to make.
My grandmother was making financial sacrifices but the preacher wasn't. Even if he had turned out to be sincere in his service to God. I'm not doubting his service to God as much as his lavish lifestyle compared to the individuals giving the money.
It would make him appear more humble if he was willing to make the same lifestyle choices the individuals were living by to support his ministry.  
Again if this minister needs a fancy car or even four jet planes to better serve God, I'm willing to make the individual sacrifice to give him those objects. 
I'm not too happy buying him/her fishing boats, vacations, Rolex watches, jewelry, make-up, and wigs.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 6, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> Why should a pastor not drive a nice car?




"Nice" is a relative term.


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## Oldstick (Mar 6, 2015)

In the past few years, I have really started to wonder what constitutes "God's Work".  For example, a nation like ours that gives very generously to the needy both at home and in other countries.  Forget that our government may also "give" excessively to questionable reasons, but wouldn't the large chunk of our tax payments going to truly needy people count as tithes going to His work?

And does God really care if we financially support nice buildings to meet in every week, plus professional staff and recreational facilities etc?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 6, 2015)

Oldstick said:


> ... but wouldn't the large chunk of our tax payments going to truly needy people count as tithes going to His work?



I wouldn't view it that way.  "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's."




Oldstick said:


> And does God really care if we financially support nice buildings to meet in every week, plus professional staff and recreational facilities etc?



God loves a cheerful giver.  We should give to our local church.


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## Oldstick (Mar 6, 2015)

centerpin fan said:


> I wouldn't view it that way.  "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's."
> 
> God loves a cheerful giver.  We should give to our local church.



I understand, and that points out my question.  There was the Roman empire and the Caesars, then there was the Middle Ages with the rise of the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church.  Then the more modern ages with the Protestant Movement plus all sorts of different governments later including the Nazi regime, the Communist regimes, etc. etc.

But then there was also the rise of the U.S. Government professing freedom and equality to all people regardless and religious freedom to all.  So how much of the 30+ per cent of my income going out to local, state and federal taxes is considered God's work?

And I will point out that I am not complaining about the tax because most, but not all of it is used for the benefit of me, my family and my community.  For examples, national security, federal infrastructure and  highways, local and state infrastructure and highways, local education, police and fire protections, education of my family and community, etc.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 6, 2015)

Oldstick said:


> So how much of the 30+ per cent of my income going out to local, state and federal taxes is considered God's work?



Zero IMO.

That's something only you can decide, though.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 6, 2015)

Oldstick said:


> In the past few years, I have really started to wonder what constitutes "God's Work".  For example, a nation like ours that gives very generously to the needy both at home and in other countries.  Forget that our government may also "give" excessively to questionable reasons, but wouldn't the large chunk of our tax payments going to truly needy people count as tithes going to His work?
> 
> And does God really care if we financially support nice buildings to meet in every week, plus professional staff and recreational facilities etc?



I think there is more to what is God's work than just the Church. Many people help do God's work outside or separate from their Church. Obviously as previously stated Church members should finance their Church.
That's pretty much common sense.
You could do or finance God's work by helping feed poor people or volunteer in a local hospital. What about driving or offering transportation for the elderly? Mentoring or tutoring young people. You could perform home repairs. Join an organization that helps people.

"Rendering unto Caesar what is Caesars"
Jesus never really gave his enemy an answer. He was good about making people look deeper than their original question. They didn't catch him  with their trick question. My point is I think there is more to this verse/story than separating what is the government from what is God's. 

It's hard to separate God's work from the government, Paul said the authority/government are God's servants.
Paul also said there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

So in that respect the government is doing God's work. Paying our taxes helps do God's work. Yet we should give back to God what is God's. That's way more than just money, tithes, or taxes.


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## Israel (Mar 7, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> "As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever." (2 Corinthians 9:9)
> 
> "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver." ((2 Corinthians 9:7)
> 
> ...



amen


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## hummerpoo (Mar 8, 2015)

au7126 said:


> Must say lot of good interaction and thoughts. Will add a thought that was passed to me from a great pastor and mentor." You can give without loving but cannot love without giving" . Works in other areas of life also.




To give without loving may satisfy the letter of the law; but giving as an expression of love satisfies the spirit of the law.
“For we know that the Law is spiritual …” (Rm. 7:14).
“Spirit of the law”: Mat 5:21ff, Mat 12:1ff, etc.

Mal. 3:
6 “For I, the LORD, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.”
The “sons of Jacob” by the flesh only obey the letter of the law.
The “sons of Jacob” by the Spirit obey the spirit of the law.

“by the Spirit”
Rm. 2:
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
Gen 17:11, Deu 30:6, Phi 3:3, Col 2:11, Rom 2:27, 2 Cor 3:6

Thank you Lord that you do not change, so that your children are not consumed.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 9, 2015)

au7126 said:


> Must say lot of good interaction and thoughts. Will add a thought that was passed to me from a great pastor and mentor." You can give without loving but cannot love without giving" . Works in other areas of life also.



Very wise.


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## hawglips (Mar 11, 2015)

I give 10% tithes, plus other offerings.  I give probably 25-30 hours a week service.  

I'd give more if I could.  I hope I'd forsake all if needed.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 11, 2015)

Do you think your giving does anything to better your spiritual position with God?


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## groundhawg (Mar 11, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Do you think your giving does anything to better your spiritual position with God?



If you are giving for the right reason(s) and in a loving way you are following the example set by of Christ so it sure does not put you in a worse spiritual position with God.


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## welderguy (Mar 11, 2015)

In Mark 12:41-44, A poor widow only gave two mites.But Jesus said she gave more than all the rich men because she gave all she had.

That humbles me right there.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> If you are giving for the right reason(s) and in a loving way you are following the example set by of Christ so it sure does not put you in a worse spiritual position with God.


So it is either the same or better. I submit that it is the same. As far as my "spiritual position" is concerned, I have no more confidence in my greatest tithe given... than in my greatest sin committed.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Do you think your giving does anything to better your spiritual position with God?



If you are asking am I buying Gods grace or future rewards NO.

I give because he gave to me first,  I love because he loved me first.  I bless because he blessed me first.
I love him


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## hobbs27 (Mar 12, 2015)

groundhawg said:


> If you are giving for the right reason(s) and in a loving way you are following the  example set by of Christ  so it sure does not put you in a worse spiritual position with God.




Did Christ tithe? I would say He did not since He lived under the law and didn't have agricultural fields in His possession. Therefore He wasn't legally subjected to tithing.


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 12, 2015)

Better question.  Do you tithe 10% of your time to doing Gods will?
Going to Church doesn't count.  Missions, evangelizing, etc.  Do you tithe 10% of your time doing that?

I ask because giving money is easy.  It doesn't require a heart.  Time is a much more valuable commodity.  It requires true self sacrifice to tithe 10% of your time.


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## groundhawg (Mar 12, 2015)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Better question.  Do you tithe 10% of your time to doing Gods will?
> Going to Church doesn't count.  Missions, evangelizing, etc.  Do you tithe 10% of your time doing that?
> 
> I ask because giving money is easy.  It doesn't require a heart.  Time is a much more valuable commodity.  It requires true self sacrifice to tithe 10% of your time.



I do not consider my time tithing.  I consider it an offering. 

Do give more that 10% of my time back to help the church and others. Not 10% of the total hours in a week/year but more than 10% of hours that I am not working or sleeping.  Takes away from my hunting and fishing but I have been much more blessed by giving than receiving.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 12, 2015)

Whether tithe or gift; when you give, whatever you give, who sees you?  Is it the One you obey in all things? (Mat. 6:1-18)

Whether tithe or gift; when you give, whatever you give, does your heart give what does not belong to you to the One who needs nothing? (Ps 50:7-15, note vs 8/ref. Ps 40:4-8)


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## hummerpoo (Mar 12, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> So it is either the same or better. I submit that it is the same. As far as my "spiritual position" is concerned, I have no more confidence in my greatest tithe given... than in my greatest sin committed.



Thanks Gem, for taking us back to the root ... again.


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## Israel (Mar 12, 2015)

Being too aware of what "I" do is an exquisite form of suffering.
Being barely aware...only a little less so.
I suppose we can have as much displeasure as we desire.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2015)

Israel said:


> Being too aware of what "I" do is an exquisite form of suffering.
> Being barely aware...only a little less so.
> I suppose we can have as much displeasure as we desire.


Yes.

I suppose that true humility is awareness of who we are... sinners saved.

And whose we are... God's.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 12, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Thanks Gem, for taking us back to the root ... again.


Brother, I just can't imagine making myself more righteous than Christ has made me. if Christ is not my righteousness, I have no spiritual standing before God.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 13, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Brother, I just can't imagine making myself more righteous than Christ has made me. if Christ is not my righteousness, I have no spiritual standing before God.



Amen Brother.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 17, 2015)




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## hawglips (Mar 31, 2015)

Reminds me of a story.

There was once a pastor in a small, growing church that wanted to get to the next level with his ministry.  He pondered on this and decided that he'd give a sermon on tithes the next Sunday.

He got started and then soon got into the meat of the topic and hand.  He said,

"Our church is like a new baby.  Our ministry is new and full of potential.  And we need to get stronger and to get up on our hands and knees and learn how to crawl!"

A lone voice in the back of the church cried out, "Amen!  Let us crawl, Reverend, let us crawl!"

The preacher continued, "And after we learn how to crawl, we're going to get stronger still, and we're going to get up on our feet and we're going to walk!"

And a smattering of voices shouted, "Let us walk, Reverend, let us walk!"

Encouraged that his message was finding it's mark, the preacher continued with more fervor,

"And then, we're going to go pick up the pace of our ministry, and we're going to quicken our steps and we're going to run!"

And still more congregants shouted back, "Let us run, Reverend, let us run!!"

The good preacher kept going, louder and with more passion,

"And then, after this church is running, we're going to pick up speed and we're going to take off and we're going to fly!!!"

And nearly the whole chapel shouted back, "Let us fly, Reverend, let us fly!"

He was coming down the home stretch with his message, and with his voice taking on a more somber tone, he said,

"And how are we going to do this?   With tithes and offerings."

And then, a lone voice in the back of the church cried out, "Let us crawl, Reverend, let us crawl!"


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## Israel (Mar 31, 2015)

This topic recently came up in discussion with another brother.
He maintained the giving is a 10% minimum, and an absolute mathematical precision.
He maintained the tithe was not "law" as such, as it was practiced by Abraham before the law in rendering a tenth to Melchizadek. Likewise he is not reluctant to open to Malachi to "preach about tithing"
To these things I only have questions...not even wishing to delve into all the instructions about tithing...in the law.

If Abraham is indeed a worthy example...do we know that he engaged in this any more than once...and that only in regard to the spoils he recovered? We know nothing of a searching out of Melchizadek weekly, biweekly, semi-annually, or yearly, to repeat this.

But to the more salient point, as almost all I have ever heard defend the tithe as being "un-law"...do, with the same breath, go to Malachi to enforce their doctrines over their charges.
Malachi makes no mention of Abraham, and even the most cursory reading would (to me at least) see he is making his plea regarding that which Moses delivered.
I also know of few who dare question these matters, they themselves are not then questioned as to "giving", as though they must find the concept repugnant.

This life is very interesting, to say the least.


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## rjcruiser (Mar 31, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Reminds me of a story.
> 
> There was once a pastor in a small, growing church that wanted to get to the next level with his ministry.  He pondered on this and decided that he'd give a sermon on tithes the next Sunday.
> 
> ...







Israel said:


> This topic recently came up in discussion with another brother.
> He maintained the giving is a 10% minimum, and an absolute mathematical precision.
> He maintained the tithe was not "law" as such, as it was practiced by Abraham before the law in rendering a tenth to Melchizadek. Likewise he is not reluctant to open to Malachi to "preach about tithing"
> To these things I only have questions...not even wishing to delve into all the instructions about tithing...in the law.
> ...



Very interesting points.


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## groundhawg (Mar 31, 2015)

hummerpoo said:


> Whether tithe or gift; when you give, whatever you give, who sees you?  Is it the One you obey in all things? (Mat. 6:1-18)
> 
> Whether tithe or gift; when you give, whatever you give, does your heart give what does not belong to you to the One who needs nothing? (Ps 50:7-15, note vs 8/ref. Ps 40:4-8)



Good words.  Thanks for sharing.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 31, 2015)

Israel said:


> This life is very interesting, to say the least.


In my youth, I paid tithes while a non-Christian. My parents encouraged it. The preacher demanded it. 

And I was delivered from it.


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## hawglips (Apr 1, 2015)

I'm surprised to see that so many take a legalist position as defense of a convenient choice to not pay tithing.  

If one is going to take a legalist defense to justify not paying tithing, then that same defense could be used to justify murder, adultery, or ignoring any of the other 10 commandments.   But if one does that, then they certainly are not basing their actions on Christian or Biblical principles. 

Christ taught that not only is murder a sin, but now if we even get mad at someone, that's also a sin.  He didn't loosen up on what the definition of sin was, he tightened down on it.  Not only is committing the act of adultery a sin, but now, just merely lusting in one's heart is also a sin.  Since He came, it's not an eye for an eye any longer, but we are to turn the other cheek, and to forgive 70 times 7 times.  He actually increased the length of the list substantially by moving away from the letter of the law.  Not the other way around.  It was just the hollow Pharisaic traditions in the Mosaic law that he lambasted.   And more than once, Christ required giving all.   I don't recall Him ever saying that we should give less or for us to use the letter of the law to justify our sins of commission or omission.   

If one's pastor is using the preaching of tithing and offerings as a means to acquire worldly fortune and fame, then shame on him.  He'll answer to The One whose name he invokes for that.   Find you a church that treats tithing funds as sacred.


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## au7126 (Apr 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Reminds me of a story.
> 
> There was once a pastor in a small, growing church that wanted to get to the next level with his ministry.  He pondered on this and decided that he'd give a sermon on tithes the next Sunday.
> 
> ...



Can you see this every day?


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## welderguy (Apr 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I'm surprised to see that so many take a legalist position as defense of a convenient choice to not pay tithing.
> 
> If one is going to take a legalist defense to justify not paying tithing, then that same defense could be used to justify murder, adultery, or ignoring any of the other 10 commandments.   But if one does that, then they certainly are not basing their actions on Christian or Biblical principles.
> 
> ...



Amen! Wise counsel and very well said.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> I'm surprised to see that so many take a legalist position as defense of a convenient choice to not pay tithing.
> 
> If one is going to take a legalist defense to justify not paying tithing, then that same defense could be used to justify murder, adultery, or ignoring any of the other 10 commandments.   But if one does that, then they certainly are not basing their actions on Christian or Biblical principles.
> 
> Christ taught that not only is murder a sin, but now if we even get mad at someone, that's also a sin.  He didn't loosen up on what the definition of sin was, he tightened down on it.  Not only is committing the act of adultery a sin, but now, just merely lusting in one's heart is also a sin.  Since He came, it's not an eye for an eye any longer, but we are to turn the other cheek, and to forgive 70 times 7 times.  He actually increased the length of the list substantially by moving away from the letter of the law.  Not the other way around.  It was just the hollow Pharisaic traditions in the Mosaic law that he lambasted.   And more than once, Christ required giving all.   I don't recall Him ever saying that we should give less or for us to use the letter of the law to justify our sins of commission or omission.





Although you are trying to prove the point for tithing with this explanation, it does just the opposite.

Because we are no longer under tithing, we are to give more!  We are to live as though everything is the Lord's.  Just like praying....we are to always pray.

Imagine what could be done if we lived like those in the early church, giving where need was?  Making sure widows were taken care of.  Making sure those that were homeless and hungry in the church were fed.

Yes...the OT Tithe limits one's gifts.  Grace giving unleashes us from the boundaries set by the law.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 1, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes...the OT Tithe limits one's gifts.  Grace giving unleashes us from the boundaries set by the law.


Rj, there is a whole sermon in there. I anxiously await your webcast. 

I recently had a man approach me and ask if I could spare a dollar. While grinning ear to ear, I opened my wallet and showed him that I had exactly one dollar. He looked at it and said,"I can't take your last dollar". I told him,"Sir, it never was mine. The same Providence that determined your need of it, also determined that I held it for you".


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## hawglips (Apr 1, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Grace giving unleashes us from the boundaries set by the law.



And condemns us for what's really in our hearts.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 1, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Rj, there is a whole sermon in there. I anxiously await your webcast.
> 
> I recently had a man approach me and ask if I could spare a dollar. While grinning ear to ear, I opened my wallet and showed him that I had exactly one dollar. He looked at it and said,"I can't take your last dollar". I told him,"Sir, it never was mine. The same Providence that determined your need of it, also determined that I held it for you".





I do a great job of listening to other way more qualified preachers and stealing their material 

But I will finish my sermonette this way.  No matter how much I give, or how hard I try, I always know that it isn't enough to cover what is required.  How depressing.


Except for one thing.  Jesus Christ.  So thankful for His gift on the cross...His death...His resurrection.  Fitting for this time of year as well.

Sooo grateful for God's Grace and Mercy He shows me each and everyday.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> And condemns us for what's really in our hearts.


I died under the curse of the law. I rose with Christ.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 1, 2015)

hawglips said:


> And condemns us for what's really in our hearts.



How can grace condemn?


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## gemcgrew (Apr 1, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> How can grace condemn?


Only by being withheld. The only way I can make sense of his statement is that he is inferring something different from you, in his use of the word "us".


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Although you are trying to prove the point for tithing with this explanation, it does just the opposite.
> 
> Because we are no longer under tithing, we are to give more!  We are to live as though everything is the Lord's.  Just like praying....we are to always pray.
> 
> ...



X2, great lesson.


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## hawglips (Apr 6, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> How can grace condemn?



Expanding the boundaries of sin allows us to reap condemnation....


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## rjcruiser (Apr 6, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Expanding the boundaries of sin allows us to reap condemnation....



That isn't grace, that is sin.  Paul deals with that in Romans 6.

But...maybe I'm just arguing semantics.


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## Israel (Apr 6, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Expanding the boundaries of sin allows us to reap condemnation....



I think I may understand what I believe you are saying.
If we take grace for license, we may find that very grace speaking against us?

But what of the liberty of grace in Christ? Can we not also be found despising grace in the implementation of those things _we set_ as boundaries...not only for ourselves, but especially for others? The little fences upon which we may come to rely to speak well of us, and for us. And eventually, if not disabused, will speak to us...instead of the Spirit.

I have often found no greater danger to my soul than to be satisfied of myself, and with myself, that I have done anything "right".

This is a peculiar life. We are held, if in any sense accountable, to what we do with the Lord Jesus. What others may do ultimately must always be left to the Lord. It is in every way counter to what we have previously known of life. The "if I do this I am good, if I do that I am bad" coin of two equal sides.
To learn to rely completely upon another to be our righteousness is never less than a learning here, from day one believer, to the most aged saint.
The shaking out our pockets of things held to _our own advantage_ is never complete until the Lord says so...and I have spent many years trying to perfect the art of a vain ventriloquism.
Do brother, what in your eyes and heart is life to you, and be glad. As should we all. Sometimes the measure of life we have is manifest in a joy apprehended in our doing of which whether men follow, or even, and _especially_ if not...cannot be diminished.


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## StriperAddict (Apr 8, 2015)

*grace indeed our teacher*



Israel said:


> I think I may understand what I believe you are saying.
> If we take grace for license, we may find that very grace speaking against us?
> 
> But what of the liberty of grace in Christ? Can we not also be found despising grace in the implementation of those things _we set_ as boundaries...not only for ourselves, but especially for others? The little fences upon which we may come to rely to speak well of us, and for us. And eventually, if not disabused, will speak to us...instead of the Spirit.
> ...


 
Priceless


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## hawglips (Apr 8, 2015)

Perhaps our own definition of sin changes as we grow in love for Him and rely more on the Holy Spirit to guide our lives.  Our desire and love for Him grows, and our eyes are opened to see things in ourselves what we did not see before.   Maybe it's the sincere desire to truly give up our sins and follow Him that allows Him to show us our weaknesses and foster humility, so that he can guide us towards what He wants us to be.


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## Israel (Apr 11, 2015)

hawglips said:


> Perhaps our own definition of sin changes as we grow in love for Him and rely more on the Holy Spirit to guide our lives.  Our desire and love for Him grows, and our eyes are opened to see things in ourselves what we did not see before.   Maybe it's the sincere desire to truly give up our sins and follow Him that allows Him to show us our weaknesses and foster humility, so that he can guide us towards what He wants us to be.



I would be a fool to disagree with that.

Perhaps, like some, but also, maybe like none, "sin" was a thing more apprehended as having a big black border etched by Magic Marker "Don't fornicate".

OK...OK...got it..."fornication, stealing, lying," they are all in the black marker group...easy to see, and wow...so easy to see when others are engaged. Hey, I am pretty good at this...I guess I have "the knack".

But oh!
Things change, don't they?
Now...just opening the lips can bring such a grief to the spirit as to cause  one to feel crushed inside, when undertaken unadvisedly. Just a word, or one withheld when due...wow...a little different than even "a short while ago..."

But who...wants to "go back?"


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## Huntinfool (Apr 15, 2015)

For those who fall in the camp of "give when you see a need", I have a question.

Do you also believe that you know the purposes and ways of God?  My concern is that you cannot possibly know what God has in mind for the money you might give (to whatever ministry) whether you see a need or not.

I agree there is not a 10% mandate.  I follow it simply because it's a good starting point for my monthly giving. 

IMO, if anything, a careful reading of what the NT has to say about giving should make us ashamed at 10% of our income.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 15, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> For those who fall in the camp of "give when you see a need", I have a question.



It's been a little while since I've read all the pages of this thread, but I don't remember seeing anyone in this thread that is in that camp.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> It's been a little while since I've read all the pages of this thread, but I don't remember seeing anyone in this thread that is in that camp.



X2. I was wondering the same thing.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 16, 2015)

> I give where it is needed...both of $ and of time









P.S.  we need your money and your time (and lots of it) at the school!


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## rjcruiser (Apr 16, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> For those who fall in the camp of "give when you see a need", I have a question.



Hmm...let's read my post. 



rjcruiser said:


> The tithe is really a thing of the OT and not a part of the NT church. In the OT....there are 3 Tithes of 10% each. 2 were to be given annually and one every 3rd year...so...if you are going to follow the OT tithe, you really need to give 23.3%.
> 
> If you look at the NT church, it is even more sacrificial. Look at Acts 4:32-37. These early Christians gave a lot....wherever there was need.
> 
> So no...I don't base it off of %.  I give where it is needed...both of $ and of time.



Giving where it is needed is not even close to what you claim I meant of "giving when you see a need."



Huntinfool said:


> P.S.  we need your money and your time (and lots of it) at the school!



I've paid my 10% to the church....I pay my school bill on time.  Seems like I've done more than my part in keeping the law


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## Huntinfool (Apr 16, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Giving where it is needed is not even close to what you claim I meant of "giving when you see a need."



"where it is needed" seems to require that you see the need (or be told about it by someone), no?  Otherwise, how do you know there is a need?

I'm sure that what you wrote didn't exactly convey the intent.  I just used it as an example of the 'feel' that I've gotten from the thread and several different posters.

There seem to be an aweful lot of people who say they are using service as a substitute for money because "God wants everything".  My assumption is that, because time is 'freer' than cash, it's easier to dismiss the tithe as "just an OT concept" and substitute.

I might be making a leap for a lot of people.  But I see it too often in real life to dismiss it as me just jumping to conclusions.

BTW....I can also say pretty confidently that many people who say "I serve" instead of giving money, do not actually serve.  They just use it as an out.

I'm feeling cynical today, what can I say?


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## Huntinfool (Apr 16, 2015)

> i've paid my 10% to the church....




Tither!!!!!  Where do you see that number commanded!


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## JB0704 (Apr 16, 2015)

I gots some stories about service.  My favorite is when I take two days off work to give my time to a certain project, and somebody who knows how to do it better than me tells me everything I am doing wrong, and, when I ask him to "give service" all they got is......."but, I gotta work."



So do I.

Don't care much for know-it-alls, and folks who want to tell everybody how much better they are, but never, ever, manage to sacrifice anything to help.


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## JB0704 (Apr 16, 2015)

I could get on a soap box about the topic of service.  I don't belong to any church, but somehow manage to "serve" several ministries.  Yet, these folks who do go to church every Sunday want to lecture me about how I am not being a spiritual leader to my family......give me a freaking break!!!  I will donate what time and effort I have to most anybody or ministry who asks, and do so regularly.  These pew sitters think they somehow have elevated above me because they show up on Sunday morning.  I went to church with them, and saw their level of commitment.  It's a 1.5 hr function once a week.  Showing up don't change anything.  It's how you apply your membership to the body which changes things.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 16, 2015)

Huntinfool....

You probably missed this post of mine from page 4....it was a response to Hawglips.



rjcruiser said:


> Although you are trying to prove the point for tithing with this explanation, it does just the opposite.
> 
> Because we are no longer under tithing, we are to give more!  We are to live as though everything is the Lord's.  Just like praying....we are to always pray.
> 
> ...


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## Huntinfool (Apr 20, 2015)

> Because we are no longer under tithing, we are to give more! We are to live as though everything is the Lord's. Just like praying....we are to always pray.




Ah!.....but DO we?  That's really my question.  I hear something similar to that fairly consistently.  Unfortunately, I tend to hear it more from people who I am certain do not give or serve anywhere near the level they say they should.  That's one of my primary concerns with the Church today.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 22, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Ah!.....but DO we?  That's really my question.


When we don't, we have an Advocate. 



Huntinfool said:


> I hear something similar to that fairly consistently.  Unfortunately, I tend to hear it more from people who I am certain do not give or serve anywhere near the level they say they should.  That's one of my primary concerns with the Church today.


The Church is not yours to be primarily concerned about.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 23, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> When we don't, we have an Advocate.





Because, in reality, we always fall short.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 27, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> The Church is not yours to be primarily concerned about.



Would love to hear the justification for that one.


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## Israel (Apr 28, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Ah!.....but DO we?  That's really my question.  I hear something similar to that fairly consistently.  Unfortunately, I tend to hear it more from people who I am certain do not give or serve anywhere near the level they say they should.  That's one of my primary concerns with the Church today.



With what shall we repay?


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## JB0704 (Apr 28, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Would love to hear the justification for that one.



Can't speak for Gem, but, the Church is God's.  My whole reason for the extended sabatical I have taken from local congregations is the fact that we have collectively lost sight of that.  The church has become the pastor's, or the deacon's, or the old school family's who has been there for 3 generations.  It was never intended to be that.  I think that's a point you and I can agree to.


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## rjcruiser (Apr 28, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Can't speak for Gem, but, the Church is God's.  My whole reason for the extended sabatical I have taken from local congregations is the fact that we have collectively lost sight of that.  The church has become the pastor's, or the deacon's, or the old school family's who has been there for 3 generations.  It was never intended to be that.  I think that's a point you and I can agree to.



x2.

I think the harder churches try and drive people to give, the more ineffective it becomes.  Focus on preaching the Bible...focus on doctrine...focus on the spiritual growth of the congregation and they will give as a result of God's work.

If a church is worrying about the giving of the members, they've lost focus of their purpose.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 28, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Can't speak for Gem, but, the Church is God's.



Church is God's.  I think we'd be hard pressed to disagree about that.  However, the church is also the body of Christ.  Members of a spiritual body should be concerned about the body's health just as we would be our own physical health.

When body parts don't function well, the whole body suffers.



> If a church is worrying about the giving of the members, they've lost focus of their purpose.



I am not focused on giving anymore than any other spiritual indicator.  It just happens to be the topic of this thread. 

Giving of time, talents or money is simply an indicator of the spiritual health and maturity of a believer.  So, in that sense, the church very much should be pay attention....not focus on it...but, certainly pay attention...because lack of sacrifice in any of those areas indicates a spiritual deficiency.

Unfortunately, the 90/10 rule is still very much alive and well in many churches today.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 28, 2015)

> The church has become the pastor's, or the deacon's, or the old school family's who has been there for 3 generations. It was never intended to be that. I think that's a point you and I can agree to.



We can agree that it wasn't intended to be what you described, yes.  But we've had enough conversations over the years for you to know that I don't agree with your assessment of the Church (big C).  That is certainly the case in some churches.  But I believe that's more of an exception than a rule.

It does stink that most of the experiences you've, personally had, have been like that.  We can agree on that for sure!


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## rjcruiser (Apr 28, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Church is God's.  I think we'd be hard pressed to disagree about that.  However, the church is also the body of Christ.  Members of a spiritual body should be concerned about the body's health just as we would be our own physical health.
> 
> When body parts don't function well, the whole body suffers.
> 
> ...



Right...I'd agree with that.  But...what is the solution to that problem?

Most churches have weak teaching...weak doctrine...weak theology...more programs...more music...more fluff...just to get people in the door.  Thinking that the more people that are there, the more good they're doing.

A church that strives to get people in the door with anything but the Bible will be a short lived church.


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## JB0704 (Apr 28, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> That is certainly the case in some churches.  But I believe that's more of an exception than a rule.
> 
> It does stink that most of the experiences you've, personally had, have been like that.  We can agree on that for sure!



I jsut did a big service thing for a local Church I don't attend.  The Pastor and I had some great conversations about things.  They were an interesting bunch, and definitely a community.  I enjoyed my time with them very much.

While I was there, another local pastor of a different Church who only knows me from here stopped by to say hello (I told the useless Billy folks where I'd be), he and I also had great conversation and fellowship.

I have many good experiences with individuals on that level, and know some wonderful pastors, deacons, congregants, etc on an individual level.  I have several close friends in ministry and leadership positions within various Churches in various states, many local.  Each of them honestly think their Church is doing it's best to "get it right."  And, I honestly believe them.

But, my life's experiences tell me that when organized, convenient often becomes the primary driver at the expense of right.  And, confronting inconsistencies and doctrinal issues is not something that's very convenient.  One major disadvantage to our current state is that there are tons of options to the local church goer, and, belonging and leaving one particular body is extremely easy.  This causes a disconnect from the community as designed.  It's just too easy for somebody to take their toys and leave, and it's too easy to tell somebody to find another family to belong too.

For me, I'm lost in it all.  It doesn't matter how much a person serves or gives, if their thoughts/opinions begin to threaten convenience, they are no longer part of the body.....a cancer to be chopped off.  What I find most frustrating is the inability of Christians to disagree with each other, and still be able to discuss the differences, and let iron sharpen iron.  It just seems like so many view that as too much work.

As RJ pointed out, it seems #'s become the driver more than "getting it right."  When that is confronted, it is often pushed aside because it is a threat to that organization's existence (as they percieve it is dependant on #'s).  They fail to see themselves as part of the larger community of believers, and exchange that notion for one of a local business struggling to get a piece of the local market.  The problem is that it is not a loca market to be had by one organization........it's a local branch of a global community of believers, or, that is kind-a how I see the different congregations in the NT church anyway.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 28, 2015)

rjcruiser said:


> Most churches have weak teaching...weak doctrine...weak theology...more programs...more music...more fluff...just to get people in the door.  Thinking that the more people that are there, the more good they're doing.
> 
> A church that strives to get people in the door with anything but the Bible will be a short lived church.



I would replace "most" with "many".  But I agree with what you're saying.  I'm not making the case that fluff churches are a good thing though.  Are you equating churches that expect their members to give of their time, talent and resources at a sacrificial level to those who are simply after numbers?

I'm sure we can agree that chasing numbers is (in and of itself), not a positive thing.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 28, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> Unfortunately, the 90/10 rule is still very much alive and well in many churches today.



Sad but true.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 28, 2015)

JB0704 said:


> Can't speak for Gem, but, the Church is God's.  My whole reason for the extended sabatical I have taken from local congregations is the fact that we have collectively lost sight of that.  The church has become the pastor's, or the deacon's, or the old school family's who has been there for 3 generations.  It was never intended to be that.  I think that's a point you and I can agree to.


Yes, and I believe that God's _ekklesia_ exists outside of the institutionalized churches.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 29, 2015)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes, and I believe that God's _ekklesia_ exists outside of the institutionalized churches.



It does indeed, and it involves a lot less stranger hugs and it's cheaper to boot!


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## rjcruiser (Apr 29, 2015)

Huntinfool said:


> I would replace "most" with "many".



  I'll stick with most.



Huntinfool said:


> Are you equating churches that expect their members to give of their time, talent and resources at a sacrificial level to those who are simply after numbers?



Nope.  But I think the churches that struggle with giving and with finding people to give of their time, talent and resources at a sacrificial level are struggling for a reason.




			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> I'm sure we can agree that chasing numbers is (in and of itself), not a positive thing.



I'd say in any sense is not a positive thing.  If your church is full of people that aren't committed to its purpose, you've got bigger issues than just commitment issues or giving issues.


----------

