# Christianity is not a religion?



## vowell462 (Aug 19, 2013)

Yesterday, on a very popular social network site, I quoted John Shelby Spongs spiel about how questioning and doubting were normal and healthy activities. Also his ideology of religion in itself.

One of the first comments back to me came from a local southern Baptist preacher, whom I have great respect for, that kind of threw me back. It read " Wow! Glad Christianity is the relationship with Christ and is not a religion"!

I would argue that the relationship is not Christianity. Christianity is te disciplined practiced, I.E religion. Doesnt being a Christian identify you as a follower of Jesus and that you practice Christianity as your chosen religion?

Of course I was only answered by the following vesre John 1:10-13
" He was in the world,and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his people did not recieve him. But to all who did recieve him, he gave the right to become children of god, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of god".

Soooooo.....what your'e saying is that god made us all.......but we werent his children until his son said so?

So, back to the question. Is Christianity a religion? Why or why not? Im funcused.....


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2013)

The word religion has a negative connotation now, so the proponents would rather not call it that. A personal relationship with a god... Call it whatever you want. It is what it is.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

re·li·gion
  [ri-lij-uhn]  

noun  
1. 
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. 

2. 
a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.  

3. 
the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.  

4. 
the life or state of a monk, nun, etc.: to enter religion.  

5. 
the practice of religious beliefs; ritual observance of faith.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> Yesterday, on a very popular social network site, I quoted John Shelby Spong ...



The skeptics' favorite minister.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2013)

So you're saying it is absolutely a religion?



centerpin fan said:


> re·li·gion
> [ri-lij-uhn]
> 
> noun
> ...


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> So you're saying it is absolutely a religion?



Using that definition, I don't see how it's not a religion.  I understand where the minister is coming from, though.  Christianity is not just holding to a set of beliefs.  It is communion with God through His Son, Jesus Christ.  In contrast, Islam is basically agreeing with several tenets.   

I've also heard this:

"Religion is man reaching up to God.  Christianity is God reaching down to man."


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## swampstalker24 (Aug 19, 2013)

I heard Bill O'Riely arugue one time that Christianitly was not a religion, but rather a "world veiw".


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Using that definition, I don't see how it's not a religion.  I understand where the minister is coming from, though.  I've also heard this:
> 
> "Religion is man reaching up to God.  Christianity is God reaching down to man."




Just trying to make it sound different. It still is what it is.... If I don't have to reach back then I guess I'm a Christian.


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## vowell462 (Aug 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The skeptics' favorite minister.



I don't have a favorite. I just agree with that quote. By the way, when I gave the definition of religion, I was shot down with, " I don't go by Webster's, I go by the bible". Have any other insight?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

swampstalker24 said:


> I heard Bill O'Riely arugue one time that Christianitly was not a religion, but rather a "world veiw".



I saw that.  He also kept referring to it as a "philosophy".  I like O'Reilly, but I think he's just wrong there.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 19, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I don't have a favorite. I just agree with that quote. By the way, when I gave the definition of religion, I was shot down with, " I don't go by Webster's, I go by the bible". Have any other insight?



I've used the argument myself....


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I don't have a favorite. I just agree with that quote.



Understood, but Spong gets quoted fairly regularly here.  One former member had a quote from him in his signature line.




vowell462 said:


> By the way, when I gave the definition of religion, I was shot down with, " I don't go by Webster's, I go by the bible". Have any other insight?



He's a Baptist preacher.  What do you expect? 

Seriously, I don't think responses like his are very helpful.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> If I don't have to reach back then I guess I'm a Christian.



He's offering you a rope.  You need to grab onto it.


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## vowell462 (Aug 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Understood, but Spong gets quoted fairly regularly here.  One former member had a quote from him in his signature line.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Gotcha. I think triple kind of narrowed it down with the word "religion" being negative nowadays. Makes sense to me.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> :I think triple kind of narrowed it down with the word "religion" being negative nowadays.



I missed that before, but I agree.  OTOH, "spirituality" is generally looked on favorably.


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## vowell462 (Aug 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I missed that before, but I agree.  OTOH, "spirituality" is generally looked on favorably.



very valid point


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## StriperrHunterr (Aug 19, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> But to all who did recieve him, he gave the right to become children of god, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor the will of man, but of god".



Then it's not a right, but rather a privilege. No point here, but that stuck out to me in the OP. 

Carry on.


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## JFS (Aug 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Christianity is not just holding to a set of beliefs.  It is communion with God through His Son, Jesus Christ.  In contrast, Islam is basically agreeing with several tenets.



Well, the difference in intermediation is a given since islam isn't polytheistic like the christian trinity, but I'm not sure you can say there isn't a relationship aspect to islam as well.  



> Islaam teaches that God is Merciful, Loving and Compassionate and that He has no need to become man (nor do humans need for Him to). One of the unique aspects of Islaam is that it teaches that man can have a personal and fulfilling relationship with Almighty God without compromising the transcendence of God. In Islaam there is no ambiguity in Divinity, God is God and man is man. Muslims believe that God is the "Most Merciful", and that he deals directly with human-beings without the need of any intermediary. Actually, the phrase "In the Name of God, the Compassionate, the Merciful" is one of the most repeated verses in the Holy Quraan. Additionally, the pure and straightforward teachings of Islaam demand that Almighty God be approached directly and without intermediaries.
> 
> http://www.fatwa-online.com/aboutislaam/0020225_01.htm


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## centerpin fan (Aug 19, 2013)

JFS said:


> Well, the difference in intermediation is a given since islam isn't polytheistic like the christian trinity ...



Christians believe in one God.



JFS said:


> Well, the difference in intermediation is a given ...



I agree there.  Jesus is the Mediator.  In Islam, He is a prophet.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't believe it's an arguable point.
Say Christianity is a religion if you want to....... Say it's not if you'd rather.

It's really not worth the discussion.

.


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## JFS (Aug 19, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Christians believe in one God.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree there.  Jesus is the Mediator.  In Islam, He is a prophet.



If there is one god, how can Jesus mediate?   The prophet claim seems a lot more coherent.


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## vowell462 (Aug 19, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe it's an arguable point.
> Say Christianity is a religion if you want to....... Say it's not if you'd rather.
> 
> It's really not worth the discussion.
> ...



I disagree. Just about all wars are fought over religion. If Christianity is just a personal relationship with Christ, then no need for the historic blood shed over a personal relationship. I think its very important to categorize it.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 19, 2013)

Tomayto, tomahto.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 19, 2013)

vowell462 said:


> I disagree. Just about all wars are fought over religion. If Christianity is just a personal relationship with Christ, then no need for the historic blood shed over a personal relationship. I think its very important to categorize it.



That's my point entirely.  

You call it what you wish.  

Here's the Bible's definition of religion....

"James 1:27 
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.


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## Thanatos (Aug 19, 2013)

If Jesus is still alive then Christianity is not a religion. If you have a relationship with Him, a person who is alive, then it is not a religion.


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## JFS (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> If Jesus is still alive then Christianity is not a religion. If you have a relationship with Him, a person who is alive, then it is not a religion.



As a general rule everybody's god is alive.  Islam is not a religion because Allah is alive?


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 20, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> If Jesus is still alive then Christianity is not a religion. If you have a relationship with Him, a person who is alive, then it is not a religion.



I have plenty of personal relationships with people that are alive... that I wouldn't call a religion... When it's with a person that's a live that I can only talk to in my head, it's either a religion or straight crazy... You can pick. 

In any event, religion is a label for belief in some kind of a higher powers. Christianity is a religion, PERIOD. It's like a stripper trying to say she's an entertainer. Call it what you want, it's the same thing.


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## Thanatos (Aug 23, 2013)

JFS said:


> As a general rule everybody's god is alive.  Islam is not a religion because Allah is alive?



People believe Allah is there, but they don't have an interpersonal relationship with Allah. While I don't have back-and-forth verbal communication with Jesus I do my best to keep the line of communication between us strong even though I am very bad about being prideful and not listening to him and not asking him for guidance.


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## bullethead (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> People believe Allah is there, but they don't have an interpersonal relationship with Allah. While I don't have back-and-forth verbal communication with Jesus I do my best to keep the line of communication between us strong even though I am very bad about being prideful and not listening to him and not asking him for guidance.



A billion + Muslims and you know that they don't have a personal relationship with Allah like you think you have with Jesus? May I ask HOW you know this?


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## ambush80 (Aug 23, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> People believe Allah is there, but they don't have an interpersonal relationship with Allah. While I don't have back-and-forth verbal communication with Jesus I do my best to keep the line of communication between us strong even though I am very bad about being prideful and not listening to him and not asking him for guidance.




They don't?


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## 1gr8bldr (Aug 23, 2013)

From a definition standpoint, of course it is a religion.  How one views it personally is up to them. They can call it a personal relationship all they want, but it is still a religion


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## puddlehunter (Sep 5, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> People believe Allah is there, but they don't have an interpersonal relationship with Allah. While I don't have back-and-forth verbal communication with Jesus I do my best to keep the line of communication between us strong even though I am very bad about being prideful and not listening to him and not asking him for guidance.



Just noting that Allah means God..they believe god is there just like other religions..I am not a Muslim, but I have seen conversations where Allah was referred to and god as well.  Translation Allah-God.


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## luigi (Sep 19, 2013)

In many cases, "religion" focuses in on the "usually involving ... ritual observances" aspects, often including a lot of "rules" or "laws."  For example, the religions that say you cannot eat certain things on certain days, or cannot eat certain things at all, or you have to pray in a certain way, etc. 

In Christianity, the focus is on the relationship.  You are not limited to eating certain things or praying in only certain ways. Are there rules to follow?  In a way, yes, but the focus is not on the rules, but on the relationship.  I would argue that in Christianity you are free to do whatever you want to, there are no rules barring you. That's one of the great things about Christianity, the freedom.  God made us free thinkers, he gave us free will.  But then, that's what has gotten us in trouble.  It's the relationship that "limits" us in what we do.  For example, if you are married, are you free to do whatever you want?  In a sense, yes.  However, the relationship is going to prevent you from going out and committing adultery.  The relationship is going to prevent you from treating your spouse badly. Same thing with Christianity -- the relationship with Christ is going to prevent you from going out and robbing, stealing, klling, etc.  The religion, the rules, the laws say "Thou shalt not steal, kill, commit adultery, etc." but you don't not do those things because the rules tell you not to, you don't do them because of your relationship with Christ.

Similarly, when referring to someone as "religious."  That often means things like "they go to church every Sunday, they read the Bible every day, they don't cuss, they don't drink, etc."  The focus is on those rituals, what they do, and not on their actions or behavior resulting from their relationship with Christ.

Religion tells you to believe in God because you have to or you are supposed to.  That's not what God wants.  Kids are supposed to love their parents.  But if you have kids, do you want them to love you because they are supposed to, or because they have to?  Not me, I want them to love me because our relationship is such that they have love for me.  (I'm differentiating here from "unconditional love" because my kids are too young to understand that.  Sure I love my kids regardless.  There are times I don't like them very much, but I still love them.)  Same for my spouse.  I don't say "we're married, you have to love me."  I don't want my spouse to love me for that reason.


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## stringmusic (Sep 21, 2013)

bullethead said:


> A billion + Muslims and you know that they don't have a personal relationship with Allah like you think you have with Jesus? May I ask HOW you know this?





ambush80 said:


> They don't?


They'll tell you themselves they don't have a personal relationship with their god.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 21, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> They'll tell you themselves they don't have a personal relationship with their god.


In 5 seconds I found Muslims that say they do. Of course maybe they aren't "real" Muslims.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100509154825AANJt8N
http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070613104521AA39dJS


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## bullethead (Sep 21, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> They'll tell you themselves they don't have a personal relationship with their god.



Welcome back.
You should have looked the real answer up while you were away.


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## ambush80 (Sep 22, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> In 5 seconds I found Muslims that say they do. Of course maybe they aren't "real" Muslims.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100509154825AANJt8N
> http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070613104521AA39dJS




5 seconds?  Are you typing with your feet?

Is it more ridiculous for a Christian to speak about Islam or an atheist to speak about Christianity?


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## WaltL1 (Sep 22, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> 5 seconds?  Are you typing with your feet?



Foot


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## stringmusic (Sep 23, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> In 5 seconds I found Muslims that say they do. Of course maybe they aren't "real" Muslims.
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100509154825AANJt8N
> http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20070613104521AA39dJS


Are you talking about this answer in your first link?...


> They don't have a personal relationship with Allah as Christians do with God. Muslims do pray to Allah five times a day but, are judged as with a scale weighing the good and evil done to see were they will spend eternity. While Christians are called friends by God and are promised everlasting life.



Find a legitimate Muslim website that states that a basic doctrinal belief in the Muslim faith includes a personal relationship with Allah.


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## bullethead (Sep 23, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Are you talking about this answer in your first link?...
> 
> 
> Find a legitimate Muslim website that states that a basic doctrinal belief in the Muslim faith includes a personal relationship with Allah.



The world wide web is chock full of individuals telling about their personal relationships with Allah. There are no better examples than individuals telling the stories. You will find those examples with a single online search that reveals multiple forums which include individuals talking about their personal relationship with Allah.

Now that you have gotten the answer that directly proves your statement wrong you come back with a new set of rules...now you want a legitimate website that states a basic doctrinal belief in the Muslim faith includes a personal relationship with Allah. Unreal man.



stringmusic said:


> They'll tell you themselves they don't have a personal relationship with their god.


Now you want a website devoted to it..........


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## WaltL1 (Sep 23, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Are you talking about this answer in your first link?...
> 
> 
> > They don't have a personal relationship with Allah as Christians do with God. Muslims do pray to Allah five times a day but, are judged as with a scale weighing the good and evil done to see were they will spend eternity. While Christians are called friends by God and are promised everlasting life.
> ...


Come on String you can do better than that I would hope. Note the use of the word "they". That doesn't tip you off to the fact that the person who wrote that isn't a Muslim?  You know as opposed to the word "we" in the other responses.  Note how in your statement you said "they'll tell you" Did you use that word "they'll" instead of the word "we'll" because you ARE a Muslim or because you ARE NOT a Muslim?
We worship directly
We have a personal relationship with Allah and we pray directly to Him
we communicate directly to God 

This is what you said String - 


> Originally Posted by stringmusic View Post
> They'll tell you themselves they don't have a personal relationship with their god


That's what was addressed.
And did you ignore the 2nd link or do you want me to copy and paste all the Muslim responses from that too? I promise you there isn't a single, not one, not any, Muslim responses that says they don't have a personal relationship.
Instead of you always wanting us to prove you wrong how about you backing up your statements by proving them right? It would be a refreshing change. You don't have to agree with their beliefs but at least be accurate about what they believe.


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## JB0704 (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Is it more as ridiculous for a Christian to speak about Islam or an atheist to speak about Christianity?



Such a generalization cannot be made.  It all depends on the individual's background and education.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2013)

> Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
> Is it more as ridiculous for a Christian to speak about Islam or an atheist to speak about Christianity?





JB0704 said:


> Such a generalization cannot be made.  It all depends on the individual's background and education.


Hey JB, hope all is well with you and yours.
I would like to add to your list - personal honesty. If you have that, a Christian can speak intelligently and factually about Islam or the Atheist about Christianity or any combination of differing beliefs, IN SPITE of background/education/indoctrination/preconceived notions.  No?


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## JB0704 (Sep 24, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Hey JB, hope all is well with you and yours.



Hey Walt, things are good here, thanks for asking.  I hope you can say the same 



WaltL1 said:


> I would like to add to your list - personal honesty. If you have that, a Christian can speak intelligently and factually about Islam or the Atheist about Christianity or any combination of differing beliefs, IN SPITE of background/education/indoctrination/preconceived notions.  No?



Yes, they can.  Will they is another question.  Some do, some don't.  Christians in general have a very negative bias against Islam, and many atheists are former Christians with bad experiences.  These will taint many people's perspectives and opinion.

I know very little about Islam, so I generally don't talk about it.  I know what I have been taught, and such, but I never investigated it myself....I have an interesting story about that:

I have said a lot on here that I went to a very large, very conservative Chrsitian college for my undergrad.  While there, I took a worldviews course which generally compared most of the modern belief systems.  The professor was a "former Islam convert" to Christianity, who claimed to have unique insight into the "dark side" of Islam.

Turns out, he was a fraud, he was born Islamic, but had grown up mostly in the states, and had very little insight into the majority of Muslim culture.  How do I know what he said was true?  I don't.  Truth is that I don't know anything about Islam, and the things I thought I knew were most likely incorrect, or at least very biased.  I don't adhere to Islamic faith, and it is not really interesting to me, so I never studied it.  That being the case, I avoid generalizations about it.

Now, most of you grew up Christian.  You understand the culture, and many of you know the Bible better than most of the "scholars" on here.  You can discuss facts, but, I often think there is a bias to your perception which comes from various things.....for me, I had a bias against Christians for a long time because I had been judged by them, as a child and an adult.  Most of that judgement I brought on myself (I was a bad kid), but some of it was just ridiculous (my divorce).  Either way, I was one of those Christians who really, really didn't like Christians.  If I had abandoned my faith on account of the actions of others, then I would most likely view the entire faith negatively as well.  Fortunately, I was able to seperate my beliefs from individuals (the judgmental and mean folks we always hear about) and center it on God, which is where it should be anyway.

But, I promise you my perceptions of Chrisitans are still skewed by my experiences.

All that being said, I don't think a persons belief system prohibits them from discussing other systems.  We may not convert, but there is always something to learn.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2013)

Most mature atheists I know, particularly the ones who were Christians, researched, maybe even practiced other religions on their way to atheism. I would venture to guess that most people that grew up Christian and remained Christian never deeply studied other religions.  

Is that too general or a likely scenario?


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## JB0704 (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I would venture to guess that most people that grew up Christian and remained Christian never deeply studied other religions.
> 
> Is that too general or a likely scenario?



That's probably accurate.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2013)

> and many atheists are former Christians with bad experiences. These will taint many people's perspectives and opinion.


Yup very true at least in my case.


> You can discuss facts, but, I often think there is a bias to your perception which comes from various things.....


Very true again. And, for me, much of that bias come from those facts. There are many facts about religion, any religion, that are not positive and in fact are grossly negative. Whether negative outweighs positive or vice versa is up to every individual.


> Turns out, he was a fraud


Lots of those in every religion. And outside of religion too of course. Anybody can be fooled by anybody when they are telling you exactly what you want to hear even though some will deny that possibility to their last breath.


> If I had abandoned my faith on account of the actions of others, then I would most likely view the entire faith negatively as well. Fortunately, I was able to seperate my beliefs from individuals (the judgmental and mean folks we always hear about) and center it on God, which is where it should be anyway.


For me, I didn't abandon faith because of the actions of others but it did cause me to dig much deeper into the subject. It was after that digging that I abandoned faith as I came to the conclusion that this religion thing is entirely man made based on how the bible came to be and what it wants you to believe and how it wants you to think. If it wasn't for the bible and religion I would probably be more open to the possibility of God if that makes sense.


> But, I promise you my perceptions of Chrisitans are still skewed by my experiences.


Yup. Its the few that actually practice what they preach, as they say, that keeps me from dismissing the entire lot of you 


> I know very little about Islam, so I generally don't talk about it.


And that would be an example of the type of personal honesty I was referring to.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I would venture to guess that most people that grew up Christian and remained Christian never deeply studied other religions.


Christian indoctrination is very successful in that regard. That's why you see stuff like this - 


> They'll tell you themselves they don't have a personal relationship with their god





> People believe Allah is there, but they don't have an interpersonal relationship with Allah.


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Christian indoctrination is very successful in that regard. That's why you see stuff like this -



I really don't have time for anyone who latches on to the first religion that they are introduced to without having thoroughly explored the other options.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I really don't have time for anyone who latches on to the first religion that they are introduced to without having thoroughly explored the other options.



There are thousands of religions.  How much time are we supposed to spend on each?


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## ambush80 (Sep 24, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There are thousands of religions.  How much time are we supposed to spend on each?




More than you have.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> More than you have.



Does the Westboro Baptist Church warrant as much time as Buddhism?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I really don't have time for anyone who latches on to the first religion that they are introduced to without having thoroughly explored the other options.



The Jesus of Christianity is very different from the Jesus of Judaism and Islam.  How about if I evaluate each religion on the basis of "who is Jesus"?


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## stringmusic (Sep 24, 2013)

I made a mistake, I apologize. I confused Islam with another religion in this case.


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## stringmusic (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I really don't have time for anyone who latches on to the first religion that they are introduced to without having thoroughly explored the other options.


Here is the best answer to your question given by John Njoroge at Clemson university....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=nWY-6xBA0Pk#t=429

Here is the full video....


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I made a mistake, I apologize. I confused Islam with another religion in this case.


Hopefully you will be as nice to us as we were with you when we make a mistake


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## WaltL1 (Sep 24, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> I really don't have time for anyone who latches on to the first religion that they are introduced to without having thoroughly explored the other options.


I get your point but I also think its profoundly more complicated than a "shopping trip" in most cases. Parents, wives, family, friends, in some cases careers, fears etc. All are affected and play a part and that puts additional pressure on someone. Does that justify not exploring? For me I'm not sure but I can understand why they wouldnt. I certainly think someone should explore just for the knowledge gained but to actually make a move based on that exploration? That's when all the above comes into play.


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## stringmusic (Sep 24, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Hopefully you will be as nice to us as we were with you when we make a mistake



Absolutely 

I hope I don't come off as to prideful to not accept when the "other side" makes a mistake. Now, some of the guys actually admitting they were wrong, well....


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## ambush80 (Sep 25, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I get your point but I also think its profoundly more complicated than a "shopping trip" in most cases. Parents, wives, family, friends, in some cases careers, fears etc. All are affected and play a part and that puts additional pressure on someone. Does that justify not exploring? For me I'm not sure but I can understand why they wouldnt. I certainly think someone should explore just for the knowledge gained but to actually make a move based on that exploration? That's when all the above comes into play.



That would be ideal.  Be every kind of monk or shaman at least once.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 25, 2013)

I don't know that a ton of time on each religion is necessary. I think getting a decent understanding of SOMETHING ELSE can be enough. Understanding that most of the thousand other faiths can fill the exact same hole that yours fills.


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## stringmusic (Sep 25, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> That would be ideal.  Be every kind of monk or shaman at least once.





TripleXBullies said:


> I don't know that a ton of time on each religion is necessary. I think getting a decent understanding of SOMETHING ELSE can be enough. Understanding that most of the thousand other faiths can fill the exact same hole that yours fills.



I'll take it neither of you watched the video link that I posted?

If you click on the link above the video, it goes directly to a great explanation of this subject, it's only a few minutes long...


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## JFS (Sep 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> If you click on the link above the video, it goes directly to a great explanation of this subject, it's only a few minutes long...



Typical RZ distortions but at least you can follow it.  The other guy's answer was incoherent.


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## bullethead (Sep 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'll take it neither of you watched the video link that I posted?
> 
> If you click on the link above the video, it goes directly to a great explanation of this subject, it's only a few minutes long...



Ravi mentions the 4 things needed and how they are linked. Never once does he mention the specifics of how they are linked. He skips past the links with a story about a Muslim Cleric that admits the Muslim world should no longer ask IF Jesus died, but WHY. Then Ravi mentions, asserts, the Resurrection.
He is a very good speaker but never got into the specifics of his claims.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ravi mentions the 4 things needed and how they are linked. Never once does he mention the specifics of how they are linked. He skips past the links with a story about a Muslim Cleric that admits the Muslim world should no longer ask IF Jesus died, but WHY. Then Ravi mentions, asserts, the Resurrection.
> He is a very good speaker but never got into the specifics of his claims.


Exactly what I was thinking. He held up four fingers and dramatically says these FOUR things prove everything so everybody waits for it....... and then says let me give you ONE example and tells a story. 
Maybe you have to book him for four different speaches where he tells you one of the four each time. Job security. Smart guy.


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## bullethead (Sep 25, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Exactly what I was thinking. He held up four fingers and dramatically says these FOUR things prove everything so everybody waits for it....... and then says let me give you ONE example and tells a story.
> Maybe you have to book him for four different speaches where he tells you one of the four each time. Job security. Smart guy.



From here on out we should refer to them as the Four Assertions. He does not make it clear if those four things are the universal standard or the four things he thought up in order to make his speech seem valid.


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## JFS (Sep 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> From here on out we should refer to them as the Four Assertions.



I'd suggest the Four Fibs, because he inevitably misrepresents something for each of them.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I'll take it neither of you watched the video link that I posted?
> 
> If you click on the link above the video, it goes directly to a great explanation of this subject, it's only a few minutes long...



I didn't... So busy at work I can barely post... What is this world coming to????


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## stringmusic (Sep 25, 2013)

JFS said:


> Typical RZ distortions but at least you can follow it.  The other guy's answer was incoherent.



LOL.

What does he distort, exactly?

And what is incoherent about Mr. Njoroge answer?


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## stringmusic (Sep 25, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Ravi mentions the 4 things needed and how they are linked. Never once does he mention the specifics of how they are linked. He skips past the links with a story about a Muslim Cleric that admits the Muslim world should no longer ask IF Jesus died, but WHY. Then Ravi mentions, asserts, the Resurrection.
> He is a very good speaker but never got into the specifics of his claims.



He was answering a specific question. To tell how those 4 things are linked would take well over an hour.... it was a question and answer session.


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## bullethead (Sep 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> He was answering a specific question. To tell how those 4 things are linked would take well over an hour.... it was a question and answer session.



For you to use that video as an answer to the question asked on here leaves out how he comes to those 4 things. It really isn't much of an answer at all, unless you expect us to take Ravi in the same manner as you do.


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## JFS (Sep 25, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> And what is incoherent about Mr. Njoroge answer?



His answer didn't address the question.


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> For you to use that video as an answer to the question asked on here leaves out how he comes to those 4 things. It really isn't much of an answer at all, unless you expect us to take Ravi in the same manner as you do.


It's a great answer actually, Christianity is the only worldview that answers these four questions coherently, and that is one reason why Ravi, and myself believe that it is true.

Would you like for me to provide a full video of when he goes through how those four things are linked together and why and how the Christian worldview addresses them coherently?


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2013)

JFS said:


> His answer didn't address the question.


Granted, his answer came from a different angle, but it did answer the question of why one doesn't have to study every single religion, and I think that was his point.


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> It's a great answer actually, Christianity is the only worldview that answers these four questions coherently, and that is one reason why Ravi, and myself believe that it is true.
> 
> Would you like for me to provide a full video of when he goes through how those four things are linked together and why and how the Christian worldview addresses them coherently?



Provide a video that shows why those four questions are the Universal standard for deciding true religions.
or
Are those four things used because they fit Ravi's needs?


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## JB0704 (Sep 26, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Granted, his answer came from a different angle, but it did answer the question of why one doesn't have to study every single religion, and I think that was his point.



Good to see you posting again, String!!  Have repositioned your monitor, or are you using the I-phone?


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Provide a video that shows why those four questions are the Universal standard for deciding true religions.
> or
> Are those four things used because they fit Ravi's needs?



It's four questions in which every human wants coherent anwers.

Why am I here?
What happens when I die?
What is right and wrong?
Where did I come from?


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Good to see you posting again, String!!  Have repositioned your monitor, or are you using the I-phone?




Just sneaking on from time to time.


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> It's four questions in which every human wants coherent anwers.
> 
> Why am I here?
> What happens when I die?
> ...



That is not what I asked, nor are they the four words Ravi mentioned as he held up a finger for each word.

Your four questions can be are answered with most religions. None exclusive to Christianity.


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> That is not what I asked, nor are they the four words Ravi mentioned as he held up a finger for each word.






stringmusic said:


> It's four questions in which every human wants coherent anwers.
> 
> Why am I here? Meaning
> What happens when I die? Destiny
> ...


Those are the four words he mentioned and claimed that Christianity is the only worldview that answers them coherently.


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## stringmusic (Sep 26, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Your four questions can be are answered with most religions. None exclusive to Christianity.


He, nor I, have said that the questions couldn't be answered by other religions, but that only Christianity answeres them coherently.


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## bullethead (Sep 26, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> He, nor I, have said that the questions couldn't be answered by other religions, but that only Christianity answeres them coherently.



Therefore........


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## stringmusic (Sep 27, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Therefore........



I don't follow.....


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