# Christianity declining in the west



## atlashunter (May 10, 2019)

Think most of us are aware that Christianity is in decline in the west and by west I mean europe and the countries settled by Europeans. Is this a good thing? What does it mean for the future? What will it take for it to be on balance a positive rather than a negative change? Christianity has been the glue that held western nations together and helped give them identity and purpose for almost two thousand years. What should replace that?


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## j_seph (May 10, 2019)

https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2019)

I wonder if it's more of the younger generation leaving "organized" Christianity? I guess in relation to a decline in Christianity, that would be the same thing.
How does it compare to the other religions? Are they in decline as well?


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## Artfuldodger (May 10, 2019)

I think a lot of young people and liberal people in general associate Christianity with the Religious Right. I hear many liberals who I know believe in God talk bad about what the "Christians" are doing. Like there is an association with conservatism and Christianity that they despise. 
If a young person liberal hears this negativism long enough, he could be lead away from mainstream Christianity and still believe in the God of Abraham.

I'm not sure where this will lead in the grand scheme of life on earth as we know it. Less crowded restaurants on Sunday maybe.


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## atlashunter (May 10, 2019)

j_seph said:


> https://www.pewforum.org/2018/05/29/being-christian-in-western-europe/



Lots that we could discuss from that article. This stood out in particular to me.

“Non-practicing Christians are less likely than church-attending Christians to express nationalist views. Still, they are more likely than “nones” to say that their culture is superior to others and that it is necessary to have the country’s ancestry to share the national identity (e.g., one must have Spanish family background to be truly Spanish).”

This seems to me cause for concern. The move away from Christianity begs the question what should one move toward in its place. It has been part of the group identity of Europeans and that loss of identity absent something to take its place has implications that extend beyond religion.


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## atlashunter (May 10, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder if it's more of the younger generation leaving "organized" Christianity? I guess in relation to a decline in Christianity, that would be the same thing.
> How does it compare to the other religions? Are they in decline as well?



I’m sure it is. It wouldn’t make much sense to have a decline in religion in which the rate of change was higher among older generations than younger.


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## j_seph (May 10, 2019)

> “Non-practicing Christians are less likely than church-attending Christians to express nationalist views. Still, they are more likely than “nones” to say that their culture is superior to others and that it is necessary to have the country’s ancestry to share the national identity (e.g., one must have Spanish family background to be truly Spanish).”


Try to comment on this in my own dumb redneck way LoL
I would have to ponder in my little world, how many of those Non-practicing Christians are actually true born again Christians to start with. Why would they state or say their culture superior to others? Their ancestry does not dictate whom they identify with other than their genes/DNA. Because their parents, grand, and on back were Christians does not make them or form them to be one. Just as I have heard you speak about your dad or grandad one was a preacher, you are not a Christian and the only identity you have to him is in your genes/DNA.


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## ambush80 (May 10, 2019)




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## atlashunter (May 10, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Try to comment on this in my own dumb redneck way LoL
> I would have to ponder in my little world, how many of those Non-practicing Christians are actually true born again Christians to start with. Why would they state or say their culture superior to others? Their ancestry does not dictate whom they identify with other than their genes/DNA. Because their parents, grand, and on back were Christians does not make them or form them to be one. Just as I have heard you speak about your dad or grandad one was a preacher, you are not a Christian and the only identity you have to him is in your genes/DNA.



I don’t know that their belief in a superior culture is tied to them being Christians. I go even further than them in moving away from Christianity but I still find unique value in european nations, their culture, race, heritage and contributions to the progress of humanity. Is Christianity part of that? Perhaps and in what degree we could ponder but not anywhere near exclusively. Europeans were already a step above the rest of the world in antiquity before the influence of Abrahamic faith entered the picture. But I’m probably an outlier in that view. It does seem like the further one moves away from traditional european religion they lose with it at least in part their group identity. That concerns me. 

Then there is the matter of what fills the moral void. There is no bible or church of atheism. Without that framework, that structure, what do people turn to? Philosophy perhaps? How does that work on a societal scale? The Greeks had schools of philosophy that they would send their children to where they would learn what it means to live a good life and how to go about it. Maybe that will be needed again. Or maybe there is some better alternative that I’m not thinking of.


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## ambush80 (May 11, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> I don’t know that their belief in a superior culture is tied to them being Christians. I go even further than them in moving away from Christianity but I still find unique value in european nations, their culture, race, heritage and contributions to the progress of humanity. Is Christianity part of that? Perhaps and in what degree we could ponder but not anywhere near exclusively. Europeans were already a step above the rest of the world in antiquity before the influence of Abrahamic faith entered the picture. But I’m probably an outlier in that view. It does seem like the further one moves away from traditional european religion they lose with it at least in part their group identity. That concerns me.
> 
> Then there is the matter of what fills the moral void. There is no bible or church of atheism. Without that framework, that structure, what do people turn to? Philosophy perhaps? How does that work on a societal scale? The Greeks had schools of philosophy that they would send their children to where they would learn what it means to live a good life and how to go about it. Maybe that will be needed again. Or maybe there is some better alternative that I’m not thinking of.



What would an atheist do with the knowledge that a particular group may be genetically deficient in the qualities that engender success in the dominant culture?  What would be the moral principle on how to regard them?  Reciprocal altruism would fail them because they can't contribute as much back.  If a European, with his inferior innate land navigation ability, were stuck in the Arctic with the Inuit or in the desert with the an indigenous tribe, how would they regard him?  They might make jokes about how stupid he is because he keeps getting lost.  Maybe they take pity on him and try to find him things to do where he can still be a bit of use, close to the encampment.  Maybe he will be regarded like a child or a pet.


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## ambush80 (May 11, 2019)

https://quillette.com/2019/05/11/secular-morality-does-not-depend-on-faith/


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## atlashunter (May 13, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> What would an atheist do with the knowledge that a particular group may be genetically deficient in the qualities that engender success in the dominant culture?  What would be the moral principle on how to regard them?  Reciprocal altruism would fail them because they can't contribute as much back.  If a European, with his inferior innate land navigation ability, were stuck in the Arctic with the Inuit or in the desert with the an indigenous tribe, how would they regard him?  They might make jokes about how stupid he is because he keeps getting lost.  Maybe they take pity on him and try to find him things to do where he can still be a bit of use, close to the encampment.  Maybe he will be regarded like a child or a pet.



That’s like asking what someone with a mustache would do. There is no moral code that goes with atheism. It is amoral. You can be good or bad and still be an atheist. I think Christianity in many respects is immoral but it does have good teachings mixed in. You can pick the pepper from the gnat dung so to speak which is what most Christians do. The question I’m posing is what do you work with once you toss out the whole pile. I think we can do better than what religion offers but I’m not at all convinced that people in the macro scale will do better especially without some structured framework like religion offers. It’s also possible that the West gets taken over by Islam in the absence of the unifying force of Christianity.


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## atlashunter (May 13, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> https://quillette.com/2019/05/11/secular-morality-does-not-depend-on-faith/



Some excellent commentary on that article. This comment stood out to me, “As a Secular Humanist, I like to think that people can be moral without grounding their values in supernatural beliefs.”. People can but will they? What if anything do we need to ensure that they will or at least increase the odds? That is a question I think us atheist/agnostics have not really given much consideration.


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## ambush80 (May 13, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> That’s like asking what someone with a mustache would do. There is no moral code that goes with atheism. It is amoral. You can be good or bad and still be an atheist. I think Christianity in many respects is immoral but it does have good teachings mixed in. You can pick the pepper from the gnat dung so to speak which is what most Christians do. The question I’m posing is what do you work with once you toss out the whole pile. I think we can do better than what religion offers but I’m not at all convinced that people in the macro scale will do better especially without some structured framework like religion offers. It’s also possible that the West gets taken over by Islam in the absence of the unifying force of Christianity.



The Douglass Murray and to some extent Jordan Peterson concern.

I think for people who have a hard time wrestling with complicated ideas like morality, a ready guide complete with Boogey Man punisher is a good solution.  I like Sam's quote "There's no reason to do good things for bad reasons when good reasons are available" but when I apply that to some instruction I might give to my daughter, sometimes "Because I told you so" is adequate for the moment.  A more detailed explanation might be given at a less pressing time.


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## BeerThirty (May 13, 2019)

Isn't it already apparent to see that the world is unraveling?  It doesn't take a sophisticated study or an opinion of an "expert".  Just look around.  Follow the news.  It's evident.


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## ambush80 (May 13, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> That’s like asking what someone with a mustache would do. There is no moral code that goes with atheism. It is amoral. You can be good or bad and still be an atheist. I think Christianity in many respects is immoral but it does have good teachings mixed in. You can pick the pepper from the gnat dung so to speak which is what most Christians do. The question I’m posing is what do you work with once you toss out the whole pile. I think we can do better than what religion offers but I’m not at all convinced that people in the macro scale will do better especially without some structured framework like religion offers. It’s also possible that the West gets taken over by Islam in the absence of the unifying force of Christianity.




I said "Atheist" but I should have said rational human secularist.  I suppose I was trying to see how a rational examination of the problem that I illustrated would be dealt with by a non deist.


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## atlashunter (May 13, 2019)

ambush80 said:


> I said "Atheist" but I should have said rational human secularist.  I suppose I was trying to see how a rational examination of the problem that I illustrated would be dealt with by a non deist.



Well for me the answer would be “it depends”. Need more context. But I think if the principle is reciprocal altruism does that mean doing for others what they do for you? Or does it mean treating others as you would want them to treat you if the roles were reversed? There is a substantial difference in those standards. I also think Dan Barkers “act to minimize harm” is a good guideline. But again context is key. The same act could be moral in one context and immoral in another.


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## atlashunter (May 13, 2019)

BeerThirty said:


> Isn't it already apparent to see that the world is unraveling?  It doesn't take a sophisticated study or an opinion of an "expert".  Just look around.  Follow the news.  It's evident.



It’s been unraveling for all of human history. But if you mean to say the west is in a state of decline I would agree with that assessment.


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## Artfuldodger (May 13, 2019)

BeerThirty said:


> Isn't it already apparent to see that the world is unraveling?  It doesn't take a sophisticated study or an opinion of an "expert".  Just look around.  Follow the news.  It's evident.


 
I think it really escalated around the time of Hitler in the 30's. That and others like him. Communism, Socialism, etc.  Then maybe we had and ebb tide affect in the 80's. Now it's headed back the other way. Maybe?


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## 660griz (May 13, 2019)

BeerThirty said:


> Isn't it already apparent to see that the world is unraveling?  It doesn't take a sophisticated study or an opinion of an "expert".  Just look around.  Follow the news.  It's evident.


I think it is just trying to find its 'level'. Compared to the atrocities of the past, we are in a pretty benign time.


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## ambush80 (May 13, 2019)

BeerThirty said:


> Isn't it already apparent to see that the world is unraveling?  It doesn't take a sophisticated study or an opinion of an "expert".  Just look around.  Follow the news.  It's evident.



Get this book from your library:

https://stevenpinker.com/publications/enlightenment-now-case-reason-science-humanism-and-progress


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## atlashunter (Jul 11, 2019)

Just came across this today.






What he describes starting at the 11:40 mark is something I would hope for. I don’t think we are moving in that direction though. What would it take to get there?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jul 11, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> Think most of us are aware that Christianity is in decline in the west and by west I mean europe and the countries settled by Europeans. Is this a good thing? What does it mean for the future? What will it take for it to be on balance a positive rather than a negative change? Christianity has been the glue that held western nations together and helped give them identity and purpose for almost two thousand years. What should replace that?



Dunno if you read Mark Steyn, but I suspect that you're familiar with the name.  Good reads.  Scary outlook, but nature DOES abhor a vacuum.  People WILL believe in something.  That much is self evident.  A very famous and wise man once said you should never take down a fence until you understand why it was put up.  As far as Christianity goes, the fence is almost completely disassembled here in the West, due to both external and internal forces.  I'm not sure history provides an example of what happens when secularism replaces Christianity as the guiding force of a culture.


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## atlashunter (Jul 11, 2019)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Dunno if you read Mark Steyn, but I suspect that you're familiar with the name.  Good reads.  Scary outlook, but nature DOES abhor a vacuum.  People WILL believe in something.  That much is self evident.  A very famous and wise man once said you should never take down a fence until you understand why it was put up.  As far as Christianity goes, the fence is almost completely disassembled here in the West, due to both external and internal forces.  I'm not sure history provides an example of what happens when secularism replaces Christianity as the guiding force of a culture.



Not familiar with him but I will take a look.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 12, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> Think most of us are aware that Christianity is in decline in the west and by west I mean europe and the countries settled by Europeans.
> 
> _Is this a good thing? _(1)
> 
> ...


Yes/concur.
My thoughts by "(#)." -
(1) Nope.   How come I say 'no?' I say 'no' cause I dig the civil part of civilization ... If enough folks within 'the west' do not adequately subscribe to a given moral code (_whatever_ it may be; from _whatever _source) then it just makes sense that 'the west' will move to a status of less overall agreement and unity, which probably then extends to less civil-ity.  Hence a degradation in civil-ization.  
(2) If my comment above is adequately correct then western civil-ization is on a path toward probably less civil-ity.
(3) If Christianity is going to atrophy-out as a general influence then there needs to be the introduction of _some kind_ of a moral code *   that is willingly embraced by enough of a quantity of folks to be generally influential.  It makes sense to me that influential is not enough, though .... at the same time it needs to be a 'moral code' that is implementable in a manner that is willingly endurable by the others who do not wish to embrace it.  E.g., Authoritarianism or even a theocracy is influential, though not willingly very endurable **  for the non-adherents ... which then eventually/usually leads to civil unrest, etc., etc., etc.  Then we are back to civil discord.
(4) While I can clearly see that in 'the west' Christianity is in decllne, I do not see a more functional moral code available to replace it.  Thus, for me, the answer to your question is that Christianity should not be replaced.   Further thought by me, though this is beyond your specific question: (4.a.) Meanwhile, and consistent with what is repeatedly Biblically reported, Christianity works for some and should not be expected to work for all .... it is to be rejected by many ... at this time for 'the west,' that many is growing and growing and growing ... and, most of those many do not find Christianity at all  ** endurable.

Important acknowledgement:  It is I that is saying that the core loss is  * 'moral code.' I fully recognize : ) that you have not said above that 'moral code' is the loss (you may or may not concur that 'moral code' is part of the mix, of course).  I simply wish to acknowledge that what you have stated as what is at risk of loss is "identity and purpose."
- Thank you for your thought prompting orignal post.


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## atlashunter (Sep 12, 2019)

RegularJoe said:


> Yes/concur.
> My thoughts by "(#)." -
> (1) Nope.   How come I say 'no?' I say 'no' cause I dig the civil part of civilization ... If enough folks within 'the west' do not adequately subscribe to a given moral code (_whatever_ it may be; from _whatever _source) then it just makes sense that 'the west' will move to a status of less overall agreement and unity, which probably then extends to less civil-ity.  Hence a degradation in civil-ization.
> (2) If my comment above is adequately correct then western civil-ization is on a path toward probably less civil-ity.
> ...



I think we are generally thinking along the same lines. I can't recall who said it now but it was in a talk between Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, and Sam Harris they said the problem is "we know too much" in the west to go back to christian faith. The vacuum is coming. In western europe it's already here. With respect to the decline of christianity I think the genie is already out of the bottle and there is no going back. Maybe some answers are to be found in looking to the foundations of western civilization that predate the adoption of christianity?


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## RegularJoe (Sep 12, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> ... The vacuum is coming
> ...  Maybe some answers are to be found in looking to the foundations of western civilization that predate the adoption of christianity?


Re., 'vaccum' .... I just wanna 'be ready.'
Re., 'pre-Christianity' times, as in, _just_ before Christianity started taking hold 
(you _may _be referring to times all the way back to when ever the start was)....  
As just a completely layperson historian, what I think I have learned about those times just before, is that they were pretty much in a stage of rack 'n ruin.  For me to learn more it'd probably be good for me to sit down and finally read The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire ?


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## WaltL1 (Sep 15, 2019)

_



			"Up (up, up, up, up)
And down (down, down, down, down)
And in the end it's only round 'n round (round, round, round)"
		
Click to expand...

_


> _Pink Floyd-Us and Them_


I really think that's what it all boils down to ^
Cultures, religions, everything... dominate now, decline then, replaced by this, that gets replaced by something else, round and round we go.


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## PopPop (Sep 15, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> That’s like asking what someone with a mustache would do. There is no moral code that goes with atheism. It is amoral. You can be good or bad and still be an atheist. I think Christianity in many respects is immoral but it does have good teachings mixed in. You can pick the pepper from the gnat dung so to speak which is what most Christians do. The question I’m posing is what do you work with once you toss out the whole pile. I think we can do better than what religion offers but I’m not at all convinced that people in the macro scale will do better especially without some structured framework like religion offers. It’s also possible that the West gets taken over by Islam in the absence of the unifying force of Christianity.



I think Islam will fill the void. They are pushy like that.


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## atlashunter (Sep 20, 2019)

PopPop said:


> I think Islam will fill the void. They are pushy like that.



That would be tragic but you may be right. Only upside to that would be to watch the feminazi's get what they deserve.


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## bobocat (Sep 20, 2019)

atlashunter said:


> That would be tragic but you may be right. Only upside to that would be to watch the feminazi's get what they deserve.


You may not get to watch the upside if it is to spread like Christianity did . It seems to me that it would be convert or die.  And it doesnt sound like you would be a willing follower of allah.


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