# Israel's Kingdom Gospel, Gentile's Grace Gospel?



## Artfuldodger (Jun 10, 2016)

Did it really change from one to the other? Maybe it changed at 70AD. 

Matthew 25:34-36
"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

Was this before Paul came and preached the "AGE of Grace?"

I read a lot about "changes" in the Bible yet some say there are none. Yet we know there was a mystery revealed by Paul.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 10, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did it really change from one to the other? Maybe it changed at 70AD.
> 
> Matthew 25:34-36
> "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
> ...



The mystery is/was the Gentiles by faith are/were to be Sons of God.  And the only way a Jew could be a Son of God was through faith. Romans again


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did it really change from one to the other? Maybe it changed at 70AD.
> 
> Matthew 25:34-36
> "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
> ...



Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2016)

Heb.9:28
so also the Christ, once having been offered to bear the sins of many, a second time, apart from a sin-offering, shall appear, to those waiting for him -- to salvation!

When He comes back, we will have salvation available to us....or we have salvation now because He has come back.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2016)

This speaks for itself, no commentary needed.
Hebrews 8
 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


￼


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> This speaks for itself, no commentary needed.
> Hebrews 8
> 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”
> 
> ...



Has salvation always been by grace only? I see this in Paul's ministry more than the time before Paul such as the ministry of Peter and James. 

Will Jesus say "I never knew you" to someone God has granted salvation to as mentioned in Matthews or were they under a different covenant then?
I know we have talked about the time the covenants overlapped. 

Maybe there was a time when God wanted Israel to repent and Jesus would have been their King. Maybe they had the free will to choose Jesus as the physical Messiah and didn't. If so then the Gospel t before Jesus came was about the Kingdom but switched when Israel rejected Jesus.
Perhaps Israel the people was Israel before the rejection and Israel the Church became God's people by Israel's rejection taught in Romans 11.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2016)

Israel said:


> Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.



Matthew 6:14-15
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins. 

Maybe this was given before the Age of Grace.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2016)

Paul and the gang were receiving salvation, but it was not complete. They eagerly awaited Christ to return a second time with His gift.. eternal life.. salvation.

Atonement was never completed until the high priest came out of the holiest holies to announce to the people. The sacrifice has been accepted, your sins are forgiven!


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## welderguy (Jun 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Paul and the gang were receiving salvation, but it was not complete. They eagerly awaited Christ to return a second time with His gift.. eternal life.. salvation.
> 
> Atonement was never completed until the high priest came out of the holiest holies to announce to the people. The sacrifice has been accepted, your sins are forgiven!



Hobbs,I have to disagree.

1John3 says those that are born of God already have eternal life abiding in them.

Regarding your second statement,Christ's atonement was shown accepted by the Father when He raised Him from the dead.Then He sat down on the right hand,something the Old Testament priest never did.
The type of this in the Old Testament is shown when the priest defiled the sacrifice he was struck dead.That is why they tied a rope and a bell to his ankle,so they could drag him out if he was struck dead.


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## RH Clark (Jun 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did it really change from one to the other? Maybe it changed at 70AD.
> 
> Matthew 25:34-36
> "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
> ...



Salvation has always been by grace through faith. It has never been by works. You can't take one passage and try to build a doctrine on it.

Romans 4:1-3King James Version (KJV)
4 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.



Yes, Jesus mentions works of righteousness in the passages of Matt.25 but that doesn't mean that is apart from faith and grace. Works are a result of faith and grace, just as James makes very clear.

James 2:17-18King James Version (KJV)
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.



Look at these passages from Matthew 7
Matthew 7:20-24King James Version (KJV)

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Notice Jesus tells them ,"I never knew you." When a man knows the Lord and the Lord knows him it changes that man. That man becomes a man who visits the sick and those in prison. Without knowing Jesus all the works of righteousness in the world will account for nothing, because it's not the works that save.


We see the same principal that James spoke of in the life of Abraham again here.
Romans 4:9-11King James Version (KJV)

9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:


Abraham's faith is what brought righteousness. His works(obeying God in circumcision) were just the sign and seal of his faith. Likewise the works mentioned by Jesus in Matt.25 are only an outward sign of faith and a relationship(knowing) with Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2016)

Not to make a grace vs works issue out of it, was there a time when the two testaments overlapped such as between Matthews and Paul's epistles? 
Why do we see scriptures by Peter and James that bring up things that appear to be things of the Law? It's like something changed in Paul's message that sounds different than the message before him.


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## RH Clark (Jun 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not to make a grace vs works issue out of it, was there a time when the two testaments overlapped such as between Matthews and Paul's epistles?
> Why do we see scriptures by Peter and James that bring up things that appear to be things of the Law? It's like something changed in Paul's message that sounds different than the message before him.



It's not a different message. The OT and the NT are not polar opposites. There is no time of salvation by works VS a time of grace. Those are just constructs of misunderstanding the scriptures.

What we have is the OT VS the NT. In the OT a person was judged according to the law, yet they still couldn't be righteous by the law, so they had to rely on the sacrificial atonement for sin. They had to make the proper sacrifices to atone for their sins.

In the NT Jesus is the sacrifice, not just atonement, which is a covering of sin, but remission which is a removal of sin. In the NT we rely on the sacrifice of Jesus, by faith in his blood and his sacrifice we are made righteous. Man must still rely on the sacrifice. The only thing that has changed is that we now recognize Jesus as that sacrifice rather than a spotless lamb that represented Jesus to come.

The OT was just the type and shadow of the true to come. They are not opposites. The first was just the shadow, or representation of the second.  

When you see scriptures speaking of works, they are not saying that works will save apart from grace and faith, for what is grace and faith without works? What would the grace of our Lord be without his sacrifice? What is faith if it isn't alive enough to move a man to works? They are not separate things but all parts of the whole.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not to make a grace vs works issue out of it, was there a time when the two testaments overlapped such as between Matthews and Paul's epistles?
> Why do we see scriptures by Peter and James that bring up things that appear to be things of the Law? It's like something changed in Paul's message that sounds different than the message before him.




I've been on the road most of today. A friend of mine has just released some of his studies on audio, and I was able to link them to my truck radio and listen while driving..many of these studies cover that very topic. Give it a shot.
http://asiteforthelord.com/id15.html


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## hobbs27 (Jun 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Hobbs,I have to disagree.
> 
> 1John3 says those that are born of God already have eternal life abiding in them.
> 
> ...




It's a tricky topic for sure, but I think I can prove my point. First I need to know if you believe glorification or sanctification are a part of salvation today?

On the atonement..are you saying Christ's atonement was reflective of a defiled priest? A failed atonement?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 11, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> It's not a different message. The OT and the NT are not polar opposites. There is no time of salvation by works VS a time of grace. Those are just constructs of misunderstanding the scriptures.
> 
> What we have is the OT VS the NT. In the OT a person was judged according to the law, yet they still couldn't be righteous by the law, so they had to rely on the sacrificial atonement for sin. They had to make the proper sacrifices to atone for their sins.
> 
> ...



I never said they were polar opposites, I'm just seeing differences maybe. One you noted was if they saw the coming Messiah as a coming sacrifice. 
Then in Ephesians I read of Gentiles being without God and hope. In Romans 11 I read of the Jews rejection bringing reconciliation to the world.
I have always understood Israel in the Old Testament to be physical Israel and Israel in the New Testament to be the Church. 

The promises made to Abraham and his seed? Has it always been the Church? If so then how can I fit Romans 11 into this way of thinking? 
Would one know this just by reading the Old Testament? Suppose I didn't have the New Testament, would I know who Jesus is? It's easy now for me to see but then I have Jesus. We all have Jesus. Back then he was just a promise. They were living on a promised Jesus. There had to be differences. God was speaking to Israel, not the Church.
They didn't have Paul's mystery.


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## RH Clark (Jun 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I never said they were polar opposites, I'm just seeing differences maybe. One you noted was if they saw the coming Messiah as a coming sacrifice.
> Then in Ephesians I read of Gentiles being without God and hope. In Romans 11 I read of the Jews rejection bringing reconciliation to the world.
> I have always understood Israel in the Old Testament to be physical Israel and Israel in the New Testament to be the Church.
> 
> ...



One you noted was if they saw the coming Messiah as a coming sacrifice. 
Yes, but the fact that the disciples did not recognize the truth, does not mean that it was a separate or different truth.

In Romans 11 I read of the Jews rejection bringing reconciliation to the world.
Yes, because the gentiles had no covenant with God. However Jesus became that covenant. He became their path into covenant with God.

The promises made to Abraham and his seed? Has it always been the Church? 
No, the promise is to Christ. Read Gal.3 again." He saith not to seeds as of many, but unto thy seed, which is Christ."  The promise has always been to Christ. There is no salvation of either Jew or gentile outside of Christ. The Jew is simply the natural branch but the Gentile is also a branch, just grafted into the vine which is Christ.


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## welderguy (Jun 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> It's a tricky topic for sure, but I think I can prove my point. First I need to know if you believe glorification or sanctification are a part of salvation today?
> 
> On the atonement..are you saying Christ's atonement was reflective of a defiled priest? A failed atonement?



Yes, both glorification(Rom.8:30) and sanctification(Heb.10:10) of God's children are accomplished.
We are not experiencing it in its fullness yet,but it's been purchased in full for us.

The other,the atonement,I was trying to show the contrast of the earthly priest being struck dead if his sacrifice was rejected.But Jesus on the other hand was made alive,showing His sacrifice was accepted by the Father.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes, both glorification(Rom.8:30) and sanctification(Heb.10:10) of God's children are accomplished.
> We are not experiencing it in its fullness yet,but it's been purchased in full for us.



And that was my point. Yes they had not received fully, but bits and pieces. I believe we have received it fully now..you think ( as most) we're still waiting on what was near, soon, and at hand 2000 years ago.



> The other,the atonement,I was trying to show the contrast of the earthly priest being struck dead if his sacrifice was rejected.But Jesus on the other hand was made alive,showing His sacrifice was accepted by the Father.



I read Hebrews 9 and come away with a different opinion. I see Him being seated with the Father as His entrance into the Holiest Holies. His return would be to announce the acceptance of the sacrifice to the people awaiting.


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## welderguy (Jun 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> And that was my point. Yes they had not received fully, but bits and pieces. I believe we have received it fully now..you think ( as most) we're still waiting on what was near, soon, and at hand 2000 years ago..



We,same as they were,are still in this earthly body.That is why we,..and they,can not YET experience the full inheritance.But for the time being,we have the earnest of our inheritance,which is the Holy Spirit,by which we are sealed until the day of redemption.





hobbs27 said:


> I read Hebrews 9 and come away with a different opinion. I see Him being seated with the Father as His entrance into the Holiest Holies. His return would be to announce the acceptance of the sacrifice to the people awaiting.



But the sacrifice was made in the Holiest of Holies in the Old Testament economy.The place where Jesus sat down is something altogether better,as we know the Old Testament priest never sat down.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 12, 2016)

Proverbs 13:12 Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> But the sacrifice was made in the Holiest of Holies in the Old Testament economy.The place where Jesus sat down is something altogether better,as we know the Old Testament priest never sat down.




The inner court beyond the second veil , where only the High priest was allowed is represented as heaven. There the High priest after cleansing could have direct connection with God, once a year.

Jesus made a sacrifice by becoming the sacrifice. He later ascended into the holiest holies..the presence of the Father, with His blood to be presented. He was found worthy, the unblemished lamb....He had to come back as our High Priest to announce to the people..or the atonement is not complete.


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## RH Clark (Jun 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The inner court beyond the second veil , where only the High priest was allowed is represented as heaven. There the High priest after cleansing could have direct connection with God, once a year.
> 
> Jesus made a sacrifice by becoming the sacrifice. He later ascended into the holiest holies..the presence of the Father, with His blood to be presented. He was found worthy, the unblemished lamb....He had to come back as our High Priest to announce to the people..or the atonement is not complete.



Not if you look at the Holy Spirit as having fulfilled that role. Is it not the Holy Spirit that bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 12, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Not if you look at the Holy Spirit as having fulfilled that role. Is it not the Holy Spirit that bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God?



Jesus is the High Priest.


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## welderguy (Jun 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The inner court beyond the second veil , where only the High priest was allowed is represented as heaven. There the High priest after cleansing could have direct connection with God, once a year.
> 
> Jesus made a sacrifice by becoming the sacrifice. He later ascended into the holiest holies..the presence of the Father, with His blood to be presented. He was found worthy, the unblemished lamb....He had to come back as our High Priest to announce to the people..or the atonement is not complete.



The atonement was complete when Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross.
Otherwise the writer of Hebrews could not have said this:

Hebrews 10:19-22

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.:


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## hobbs27 (Jun 12, 2016)

Hebrews 9: 24. Jesus entered heaven, appears in the presence of God.

Verse 26 Now ( that was just prior to 70ad) once at the end of the ages... simply refers to the last generation of time in the Mosaic age, which comes after the patriarchal age..so the word ages is used. 

Christ entered heaven to present the sacrifice face to face with the Father. I don't know how anyone could interpret Hebrews 9 any other way.


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 9: 24. Jesus entered heaven, appears in the presence of God.
> 
> Verse 26 Now ( that was just prior to 70ad) once at the end of the ages... simply refers to the last generation of time in the Mosaic age, which comes after the patriarchal age..so the word ages is used.
> 
> Christ entered heaven to present the sacrifice face to face with the Father. I don't know how anyone could interpret Hebrews 9 any other way.



This is key.Don't miss this.
The writer of Hebrews was telling these discouraged Hebrews that they could come boldly NOW into the Holiest of Holies by a new and living way,the blood of the eternal sacrifice,Jesus Christ.

They did not have to wait for His return.They had direct access to the Father NOW.And so do we.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

Already..just not quiet yet. It was near.

Hebrews 2: 8-9
But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.

9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God 

Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

Hebrews 10  23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful; 24 and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds, 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Already..just not quiet yet. It was near.
> 
> Hebrews 2: 8-9
> But now we do not yet see all things subjected to him.
> ...



I say already...just already.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I say already...just already.



Since you say there is no difference in their time and ours..you believe man has the same spiritual gifts they had then?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2016)

Hebrews 9:28
so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

What is this saying? When Christ appears a second time, he'll bring salvation? Must we wait if it is a future event?


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Since you say there is no difference in their time and ours..you believe man has the same spiritual gifts they had then?



Not sure how that is relevant but I trust you will explain.
I do believe some of the gifts have ceased.Not all.
But I also believe we still have the Holy Spirit as the earnest of our inheritance,until the redemption of the purchased possession.

Its the same concept as the purchase of real estate.Do you see the analogy?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Not sure how that is relevant but I trust you will explain.
> I do believe some of the gifts have ceased.Not all.
> But I also believe we still have the Holy Spirit as the earnest of our inheritance,until the redemption of the purchased possession.
> 
> Its the same concept as the purchase of real estate.Do you see the analogy?



God has always had a remnant. These first century Christians were the remnant out of Israel, Jew and Gentile alike, predestined from the foundation of the world.
 From Pentecost to the end of the age, ie 70 ad, God was purifying these people as The bride. To Wed His Son, as His Bride was dying in childbirth. The old Covenant was passing away and the new was being born out of it.

That's why they had the spiritual gifts and we don't, that's why their salvation had come in part, but not yet fully known to them, it was a transitional period.


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> God has always had a remnant. These first century Christians were the remnant out of Israel, Jew and Gentile alike, predestined from the foundation of the world.
> From Pentecost to the end of the age, ie 70 ad, God was purifying these people as The bride. To Wed His Son, as His Bride was dying in childbirth. The old Covenant was passing away and the new was being born out of it.
> 
> That's why they had the spiritual gifts and we don't, that's why their salvation had come in part, but not yet fully known to them, it was a transitional period.



Man,we could debate this for a hundred years and still not agree.

But what baffles me is how you think the bride(church) was only those relatively few of that time period.You then say all the others are children.

I don't get that.The way I see it is ALL the people who are saved by the blood of Jesus make up His bride(the church).And when they are all gathered together in one body,then will be the marriage supper of the Lamb.This is in the future and it will be glorious.Its not something that we've missed out on.That's crazy.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

A marriage of God and a people, or city as in old Covenant Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem signifies a Covenant.

If you say the wedding is in the future, then what Covenant will that signify , do you think yet another Covenant is to come?


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> A marriage of God and a people, or city as in old Covenant Jerusalem and the New Jerusalem signifies a Covenant.
> 
> If you say the wedding is in the future, then what Covenant will that signify , do you think yet another Covenant is to come?



I understand it more as all part of the same new covenant,not another one.
I heard it explained once like this:
We(the bride/church) are presently betrothed to the Lord,which is a promise of marriage.The actual marriage comes later,but its all part of the same covenant.(example Joseph and Mary)


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I understand it more as all part of the same new covenant,not another one.
> I heard it explained once like this:
> We(the bride/church) are presently betrothed to the Lord,which is a promise of marriage.The actual marriage comes later,but its all part of the same covenant.(example Joseph and Mary)



You know, when people are engaged for over a year some start to think there is a commitment problem on one end...but 2,000 years and there's no binding marriage contract? Wow..some may think that is crazy.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

Jeremiah 31:31-34 ESV 

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hebrews 9:28
> so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
> 
> What is this saying? When Christ appears a second time, he'll bring salvation? Must we wait if it is a future event?



If He has not appeared a second time..there is no salvation today.

Christ went into heaven to present His blood to the Father vs. 22-24.  He was to appear to those eagerly awaiting Him a second time.... just as Aaron entered the most holy place  with sin then reappeared without sin resulting in glory ( salvation)  Lev. 9:22-23


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> You know, when people are engaged for over a year some start to think there is a commitment problem on one end...but 2,000 years and there's no binding marriage contract? Wow..some may think that is crazy.



You should not compare God's time with man's time.
Jesus' bride is made up of many generations of His people,and He's not willing that even one perish or be separated from Him.

He seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise(engagement ring), until the day of redemption.

Look up "sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise" in the Greek.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

welderguy said:


> You should not compare God's time with man's time.
> Jesus' bride is made up of many generations of His people,and He's not willing that even one perish or be separated from Him.
> 
> He seals them with the Holy Spirit of promise(engagement ring), until the day of redemption.
> ...



A marriage contract is a Covenant . Are you telling me there is no Covenant between man and God now? That's crazy.

You asked about the children of the Bride and Groom, we are those children as scripture points out here in Luke.

34 Jesus answered and said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; 36 nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection

If I understand my previous eschatology as you now hold..the bride and groom marry then the end comes?

A fruitless and barren marriage..that's sad.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 13, 2016)

Ephesians 1:13 
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation-- having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Yep..those first century Christians were betrothed, until the end of the old Covenant age.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2016)

Jeremiah 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

What is the distinguishing factor between the two, Israel & Judah? I'm wondering if way back then they knew Israel was the Church?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 13, 2016)

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will they teach their neighbor, or say to one another, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

The Lord made a covenant with their fathers. All will know me. I will forgive their wickedness and remember their sins no more.

Who is "all." All of the Father's ancestors or all in the Church?


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## welderguy (Jun 13, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> A marriage contract is a Covenant . Are you telling me there is no Covenant between man and God now? That's crazy.
> 
> You asked about the children of the Bride and Groom, we are those children as scripture points out here in Luke.
> 
> ...



In the old Jewish custom,a betrothal was just as binding as marriage, but there was not a consummation(becoming one) until marriage.To be loosed from a betrothal,there had to be a writing of divorcement,same as marriage.

So yes,God's people are in a covenant right now as a betrothal.His seal,the Holy Spirit of promise,is His pledge or sort of engagement ring,if you will,signifying His promise.

After marriage is the consummation,which is the two becoming one.

##Here's a very important key##

In John 17,Jesus prays:

20 Neither pray I for these alone,but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.



Do you see exactly who He is including in the "oneness" ?
It's not just the disciples at that time.It's (vs.2) "as many as thou hast given him."

And again in vs.9: " I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

And there's more included in the "all that thou hast given me":
vs.20 " Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word"


These are the bride,and it includes us.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2016)

The problem with your theory is it doesn't match up to what scripture shows us. It is the consummation of the marriage that makes a Covenant as we see in Ezekiel 16:8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord God.

We know for a fact per Hebrews 8:13 that God's wife ( old Jerusalem) was still binding in Covenant in the first century, albeit dying and at its last breath. We also know a new wife was made, but not yet consumated. The consummation had to take place after the death of the first wife..this was the betrothal period, until the first wife ( old Jerusalem) was dead.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> These are the bride,and it includes us.



They were the bride and they were going through a purification. We are a result of the consummation between them and God.


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## welderguy (Jun 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The problem with your theory is it doesn't match up to what scripture shows us. It is the consummation of the marriage that makes a Covenant as we see in Ezekiel 16:8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord God.
> 
> We know for a fact per Hebrews 8:13 that God's wife ( old Jerusalem) was still binding in Covenant in the first century, albeit dying and at its last breath. We also know a new wife was made, but not yet consumated. The consummation had to take place after the death of the first wife..this was the betrothal period, until the first wife ( old Jerusalem) was dead.



We know from Eph.5 that those in the church become one with Jesus.Agree?

So,if this is so,then in John 17 we know in more detail who exactly makes up His church.Agree?

Paul says its a mystery but I don't think it is incapable to be discerned.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> We know from Eph.5 that those in the church become one with Jesus.Agree?
> 
> So,if this is so,then in John 17 we know in more detail who exactly makes up His church.Agree?
> 
> Paul says its a mystery but I don't think it is incapable to be discerned.



On Ephesians 5 , I agree, only I would emphasize the word " become" is from the eyes of the Ephesians in the first century, in our eyes today , I would use the word " became". A son is also one with His father.
John 17... I'm having a hard time fitting anyone into that context but His disciples. I believe they too were part of the bride, but I also believe the men of Galilee, and the Gentiles that came in up to the death of the old Covenant bride in 70ad. Then the betrothed bride was married in consummation. And the New Covenant was fully established. An age without end.


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## welderguy (Jun 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> On Ephesians 5 , I agree, only I would emphasize the word " become" is from the eyes of the Ephesians in the first century, in our eyes today , I would use the word " became". A son is also one with His father.
> John 17... I'm having a hard time fitting anyone into that context but His disciples. I believe they too were part of the bride, but I also believe the men of Galilee, and the Gentiles that came in up to the death of the old Covenant bride in 70ad. Then the betrothed bride was married in consummation. And the New Covenant was fully established. An age without end.



I guess you see it your way and I see it another.I'll leave it at that.

But I really don't like your belief that says we've missed out on the marriage supper of the Lamb.I hope you are mistaken.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I guess you see it your way and I see it another.I'll leave it at that.
> 
> But I really don't like your belief that says we've missed out on the marriage supper of the Lamb.I hope you are mistaken.



Guess so..
 But I really don't like your belief that the past 2,000 years have missed out on the marriage supper..hope you are mistaken as well. ;-)


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## welderguy (Jun 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Guess so..
> But I really don't like your belief that the past 2,000 years have missed out on the marriage supper..hope you are mistaken as well. ;-)



No,I believe the marriage supper is in the future and none of God's children(bride) will miss it.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> No,I believe the marriage supper is in the future and none of God's children(bride) will miss it.



That puts God's children in a state of abandonment. Keeping with Jewish tradition the bridegroom once betrothed would leave his future wife for an unknown time, ( not a tremendously long time) to prepare a home for the two. Then He would come to her in the middle of the night in surprise to take her. The two became one flesh only at the consummation.

Your eschatology has the bride waiting, and waiting, and waiting. She is not one with the bridegroom, she is not producing children. She is an old maid.

My eschatology is one of victory, a better more glorious outcome, that she is one with Christ that they are productive and she is birthing children. That He has come to her in the time He said He would. That we are in Covenant the same way the Father entered Covenant in the Old Testament..by consummation only.


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## welderguy (Jun 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> That puts God's children in a state of abandonment. Keeping with Jewish tradition the bridegroom once betrothed would leave his future wife for an unknown time, ( not a tremendously long time) to prepare a home for the two. Then He would come to her in the middle of the night in surprise to take her. The two became one flesh only at the consummation.
> 
> Your eschatology has the bride waiting, and waiting, and waiting. She is not one with the bridegroom, she is not producing children. She is an old maid.
> 
> My eschatology is one of victory, a better more glorious outcome, that she is one with Christ that they are productive and she is birthing children. That He has come to her in the time He said He would. That we are in Covenant the same way the Father entered Covenant in the Old Testament..by consummation only.



Here's something else you must consider.This oneness Ive been speaking of is showing the church as the body and Christ as the head.We,as the body are made up of many members,each having its own function and purpose.And we all work together as a whole,with Christ as the head or the authority(leader).

There can not be (according to this analogy) other members that are separate from this body of Christ,as you say,children.There would not be ONE then ,but MANY.And they would not be under the headship of Christ.

Eph.4:4
4 "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;"


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## hobbs27 (Jun 14, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Here's something else you must consider.This oneness Ive been speaking of is showing the church as the body and Christ as the head.We,as the body are made up of many members,each having its own function and purpose.And we all work together as a whole,with Christ as the head or the authority(leader).
> 
> There can not be (according to this analogy) other members that are separate from this body of Christ,as you say,children.There would not be ONE then ,but MANY.And they would not be under the headship of Christ.
> 
> ...




First I want to say I'm really enjoying this discussion. Although we disagree for the time being, I see you have a desire to study, and this comes from a zeal for our Lord.

Secondly I may need to concede one point in a way, but not entirely.  

Look: 
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder, and his name shall be called
Wonderful Counselor, 
Mighty God, EVERLASTING FATHER,
Prince of Peace.

John 1:11-13
11 He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. 12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 

John 14:18
18 “I will not leave YOU AS ORPHANS; I WILL COME TO YOU.


Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that WE ARE CHILDREN OF GOD

Romans 8:17
AND IF CHILDREN, THEN HEIRS—HEIRS OF GOD AND FELLOW HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

So the very people described as the Bride are also described as Children.

The Bride of Christ is described as the New Jerusalem...and also a group of individuals..

Look at this, I think it is telling.
Galatians 4:22-31
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23 But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24 Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 BUT THE JERUSALEM ABOVE IS FREE, AND SHE IS OUR MOTHER. 27 FOR IT IS WRITTEN,
“REJOICE, O BARREN ONE WHO DOES NOT BEAR;
    BREAK FORTH AND CRY ALOUD, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR!
FOR THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE ONE WILL BE MORE
    than those of the one who has a husband.”


My point I think is this. Maybe The Bride is all Christians, but all Christians are children of God, born out of our Father Christ and Mother Church?

I will not cede on the consummation. As a corporate church the New Jerusalem has come down from heaven, and Christ has indeed consummated the wedding. I'm currently setting on way too many pages of scripture that absolutely confirms the wedding was to take place at the destruction of Jerusalem.


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## welderguy (Jun 14, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> First I want to say I'm really enjoying this discussion. Although we disagree for the time being, I see you have a desire to study, and this comes from a zeal for our Lord.
> 
> Secondly I may need to concede one point in a way, but not entirely.
> 
> ...



Yes,I'm enjoying this discussion also,(I always do).

There's quite a few things in your post that I'd like to comment on but instead of trying to do that all in one post and potentially cause more confusion,let me just say this:

The New Testament defines children of God as those that  are redeemed by the blood of Jesus.The reason we are His children is that we have been adopted into the family of God.(Ephesians 1:5,Galatians 4:5-7).In this way,Jesus has become our brother(Heb.2:11-12).
I don't believe it's because we are being shown as actual offspring in any way(unlike in the Old Testament ,which was shone in types and shadows).

Now,the fact that we are defined as adopted children should not confuse us when we look at the concept of the church(bride).
The bride is shown in more of an allegorical way as the body of Christ,with Christ as the head.This body of Christ is made up of the adopted children of God.

All the different allegories should not be combined but examined separately to get the full meaning of each....I believe.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

Welder, your futurism not only leaves the bride at the altar...it makes for a strange adoption.

If my great grandfather was adopted into the Hobbs family does his children have to be adopted to legally carry the Hobbs name? Of course not. The Gentiles were adopted in to the old Covenant promises..one time deal.


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## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Welder, your futurism not only leaves the bride at the altar...it makes for a strange adoption.
> 
> If my great grandfather was adopted into the Hobbs family does his children have to be adopted to legally carry the Hobbs name? Of course not. The Gentiles were adopted in to the old Covenant promises..one time deal.



That won't work because in Eph.1:5 Paul includes himself in the adoption.Then in Galations 4:5 he not only includes himself but "all who were under the law" also.Jews.Not just the Gentiles.

The adoption includes those out of every kindred,tongue and nation.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> That won't work because in Eph.1:5 Paul includes himself in the adoption.Then in Galations 4:5 he not only includes himself but "all who were under the law" also.Jews.Not just the Gentiles.
> 
> The adoption includes those out of every kindred,tongue and nation.



Actually it does work and it works beautifully.

 Paul included himself because he was a remnant out of Israel, one of the elect along with these Gentiles that by Faith were being adopted into the family of God...but being a Jew by blood did not make one a Jew..it was by faith in Christ and by faith both Jew and Gentile were being adopted into the family of God to receive the promise to Abraham. ( That was the mystery, that Gentiles also would receive the promise)

 The promise was a heavenly city or country ie. New Jerusalem ie. The Bride. 
 Hebrews 11

Romans 4:13For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith.


Galatians 3

6 Even so Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.


SEE.. The seed of Abraham was Jesus. ..By adoption as His brother Paul, Peter, Barnabas, Gentiles were becoming the joint heirs of the promise to a new heavenly city..kingdom...body..church.

 And....Both Paul and Jesus said the inheritance would come at the end of Torah.


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## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Actually it does work and it works beautifully.
> 
> Paul included himself because he was a remnant out of Israel, one of the elect along with these Gentiles that by Faith were being adopted into the family of God...but being a Jew by blood did not make one a Jew..it was by faith in Christ and by faith both Jew and Gentile were being adopted into the family of God to receive the promise to Abraham. ( That was the mystery, that Gentiles also would receive the promise)
> 
> ...



Lol.Now there's even more confusion,because you are still combining the two allegories of the children and the bride.Here's why:

You say those remnant Jews and the newly converted Gentiles(before 70AD) make up the bride(body) of Christ,which will be wed to Christ at 70AD.
Then you say these same individuals are adopted(BEFORE 70AD,according to Paul in Eph.1:5&Gal.4:5)
Then you say after 70AD,there will be children from the marriage between the adopted children and Christ.
Your claiming the adopted children are the bride does not mesh,especially when there has yet to be a marriage(70AD).

See how twisted and weird that is?
That's why I'm saying you can't put the two allegories together.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Lol.Now there's even more confusion,because you are still combining the two allegories of the children and the bride.Here's why:
> 
> You say those remnant Jews and the newly converted Gentiles(before 70AD) make up the bride(body) of Christ,which will be wed to Christ at 70AD.
> Then you say these same individuals are adopted(BEFORE 70AD,according to Paul in Eph.1:5&Gal.4:5)
> ...



Not twisted or weird at all.  English instructors will tell us to NOT mix metaphors, the Bible DOES mix metaphors, expecting us to not only recognize such so that we don't  create some ridiculous doctrine based on such or make the Bible contradict itself.

 Jesus is the Eternal Father and The Son.


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## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Not twisted or weird at all.  English instructors will tell us to NOT mix metaphors, the Bible DOES mix metaphors, expecting us to not only recognize such so that we don't  create some ridiculous doctrine based on such or make the Bible contradict itself.



Respectfully,I believe that's exactly what you have done.




hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is the Eternal Father and The Son.



True,but we will never be equal to them,even when we are made one.We must remember that important distinction.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Respectfully,I believe that's exactly what you have done.


We wouldn't be having this discussion if I didn't feel you have done this also.




> True,but we will never be equal to them,even when we are made one.We must remember that important distinction.



OK..I'm good with that. Now Do you not agree that Paul and the Gentiles were both being adopted into the family of God as co heirs to the inheritence promised to the seed of Abraham...and they were not Jew nor Greek, but one family through faith in Christ?


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## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Do you not agree that Paul and the Gentiles were both being adopted into the family of God as co heirs to the inheritence promised to the seed of Abraham...and they were not Jew nor Greek, but one family through faith in Christ?



Yes.That's what I initially said in post 57.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 15, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Yes.That's what I initially said in post 57.



They received it at the end of Torah.


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## welderguy (Jun 15, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> They received it at the end of Torah.



Can you elaborate this a little more?...or maybe a lot more?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Can you elaborate this a little more?...or maybe a lot more?



Yes, let me start with a little and I'll add more to it according to your acceptance or rejection. Sorry, I've been really busy at work and home these last couple of days, but the end of these labors are at hand, near, and soon. Which coming from a preterist means what it says, not thousands of years away, lol.

Israel a kingdom abode for God's children was a mere old Testament shadow, of greater things to come. The Apostles and people coming into the family of God per faith were receiving the new spiritual Kingdom ...the new bride, but before they could receive it fully, before it would be consummated, the old bride had to pass away to reveal the new.

70 ad.


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## Bama4me (Jun 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Salvation has always been by grace through faith. It has never been by works. You can't take one passage and try to build a doctrine on it.
> 
> Abraham's faith is what brought righteousness. His works(obeying God in circumcision) were just the sign and seal of his faith. Likewise the works mentioned by Jesus in Matt.25 are only an outward sign of faith and a relationship(knowing) with Jesus.



What you're saying cannot be squared with James 2:21-22... "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was complete by his works."  

You and I also both know that James 2:24 is mistranslated in our English translations today... the word "only" does not modify "faith", but rather the word "justified".  What is should read is something along the lines of "a person is not only justified by faith, but by works."

Many years ago, people like Luther & Calvin realized what that verse did to their doctrine of "faith only".  Rather than remove the entire book out of the canon (which would have led to more books being treated similarly), their influence caused translators to change the sentence structure.  In addition, Luther added "only/alone" to Romans 3:28 - even though it was not (is not) in the original Greek. 

God has always required people to couple HIS work with a complete faith (trust + works).  Noah was not justified solely because of his trusted in God's word to save him... he was also justified because he acted (his works). What your theology leads to is the idea that Noah could have been pleasing to God (and saved) had he NOT built the ark (obeyed).  I disagree with that 100%.


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## RH Clark (Jun 16, 2016)

Bama4me said:


> What you're saying cannot be squared with James 2:21-22... "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was complete by his works."
> 
> You and I also both know that James 2:24 is mistranslated in our English translations today... the word "only" does not modify "faith", but rather the word "justified".  What is should read is something along the lines of "a person is not only justified by faith, but by works."
> 
> ...



OK then, you subscribe to a works based salvation. I do not believe that is what the bible teaches. I believe that true faith and works cannot be separated because true faith will lead to works. It is however the faith that saves, not the faith plus works.

 That's exactly what the scriptures says concerning Abraham. It doesn't say that faith plus works saved him. It says that he was justified in uncircumcision. In other words, he was justified before the work! The work was just a sign of the faith he had before he ever did the work.

What James illustrates to us is that true faith is more than just saying the words. It's more than just believing. I can believe that Abraham Lincoln existed just like I can believe that Jesus existed. That kind of belief however will not save me. James says even the devils believe. The faith that saves is alive and active. It will move a man to works just as it moved Abraham. It is not however that movement plus faith that saves. Again, the scripture specifically says that Abraham was justified before circumcision. He was however justified because he had an alive faith which then moved him to the work of circumcision.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2016)

Matt 24:10-13
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 16, 2016)

Ezek 18:23-28
23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.
25 "Yet you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' Hear, O house of Israel: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?
26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die.
27 But if a wicked man turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life.
28 Because he considers all the offenses he has committed and turns away from them, he will surely live; he will not die.


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## Bama4me (Jun 16, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> OK then, you subscribe to a works based salvation. I do not believe that is what the bible teaches. I believe that true faith and works cannot be separated because true faith will lead to works. It is however the faith that saves, not the faith plus works.
> 
> That's exactly what the scriptures says concerning Abraham. It doesn't say that faith plus works saved him.



How can you read James 2:21-22 and conclude that Abraham was NOT justified by works also?

"Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works."  (It says it word for word!)

I believe BOTH Romans 4:3 AND James 2:21-22... in other words I subscribe to a "faith AND works salvation".  You, however, only believe Romans 4:3 and try to find ways to discredit what James writes (as did Martin Luther, Calvin, etc.).  I fully understand why Luther, Calvin, etc. felt so strongly in the matter of "faith".  For years, Catholicism had stressed the "works" of their religion to the exclusion of "faith"... and just like the pendulum on a clock, when it swings far to one side it will swing as far back the other way.  However, their attempts were feeble in changing the truth.  God's word remained... the same Holy Spirit who inspired Romans 4:3 inspired James 2:21-22.  As such, it's not one or the other, it's both.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, let me start with a little and I'll add more to it according to your acceptance or rejection. Sorry, I've been really busy at work and home these last couple of days, but the end of these labors are at hand, near, and soon. Which coming from a preterist means what it says, not thousands of years away, lol.
> 
> Israel a kingdom abode for God's children was a mere old Testament shadow, of greater things to come. The Apostles and people coming into the family of God per faith were receiving the new spiritual Kingdom ...the new bride, but before they could receive it fully, before it would be consummated, the old bride had to pass away to reveal the new.
> 
> 70 ad.




Y'all got to catch the power in this. The destruction of the Temple and the ( power) of the Holy People ( Jews ) is very significant. It was the time of the end and the resurrection .
Daniel 12
“At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.
4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2016)

The power of the Holy People was Torah, and the Jewish economy. Completely shattered in 70 ad.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2016)

And here we have the destruction of Jerusalem ( The Harlot..old bride) by Rome ( The beast with seven heads ) Rome is known as the city of seven hills. This stuff is awesome!

Revelation 17
 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored that sitteth upon many waters:

2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.

6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.

12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.


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## welderguy (Jun 16, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The power of the Holy People was Torah, and the Jewish economy. Completely shattered in 70 ad.



There's no doubt in my mind that you are correct on this point.
It's a well prophecied and well documented bit of history.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 16, 2016)

welderguy said:


> There's no doubt in my mind that you are correct on this point.
> It's a well prophecied and well documented bit of history.



Thanks...now read Daniel 12 again and you will know why I insist all prophecies are fulfilled. And were fulfilled around the events of 70 ad.


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## welderguy (Jun 16, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Thanks...now read Daniel 12 again and you will know why I insist all prophecies are fulfilled. And were fulfilled around the events of 70 ad.



The way I read it,there's more to come.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 17, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The way I read it,there's more to come.



Please, show me my error. Exegete Daniel 12 with the agreed upon position that the power of the Holy People was shattered  in ad 70.


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Please, show me my error. Exegete Daniel 12 with the agreed upon position that the power of the Holy People was shattered  in ad 70.



Don't get so caught up in the "shattering of the power of the 'holy' people",that you miss the Power of the HOLY One poured out for the true holy people.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Don't get so caught up in the "shattering of the power of the 'holy' people",that you miss the Power of the HOLY One poured out for the true holy people.



 It was the power of the Holy One that shattered the power of the holy people. His coming in the power and glory and on the clouds is proof that the Son is God. 

*"Behold, he shall come up as clouds, and his chariots shall be as the whirlwind" 
*Jeremiah 4:13

*"For, behold, the **LORD will come with fire**, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire."*Isaiah 66:15...19:1

​[FONT=Geneva, Arial]*[URL="http://biblia.com/bible/kjv1900/Matt%2026.64"]Matthew 26:64**.  Jesus told him, "You said it. I am telling you then, that henceforth  you shall see the Son of Man sitting from the right of the Power and  coming over the clouds of heaven."


*[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial]*Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
	"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one-  and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious  and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would  seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were  not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to  deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of  soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and  surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost,  as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple,  as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said  that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise,  and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let  us remove hence" (Jewish Wars,  	VI-V-3).

*[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial]*Tacitus 	(A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering  of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is  the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky  appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden  lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy  place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the  gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult  of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon  this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their  priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would  triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

*[/FONT]

[/URL]


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2016)

Hobbs,do you believe there are two Jerusalems spoken of  in the various prophecies?
One being on planet earth and one being in heaven?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Hobbs,do you believe there are two Jerusalems spoken of  in the various prophecies?
> One being on planet earth and one being in heaven?



Two Jerusalem's yes. One is no more the other is the spiritual Kingdom that has come down from heaven. It came from heaven therefore it cannot be heaven.


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Two Jerusalem's yes. One is no more the other is the spiritual Kingdom that has come down from heaven. It came from heaven therefore it cannot be heaven.



So,as a preterist,do you also believe all the prophecies of both Jerusalems have been fulfilled?
(Im leading up to something but its taking me awhile because Im busy today)


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So,as a preterist,do you also believe all the prophecies of both Jerusalems have been fulfilled?
> (Im leading up to something but its taking me awhile because Im busy today)



Welder, the coming of the new Jerusalem was just like the old, only Jesus led His people out of captivity of the law ( flesh/carnal/physical Kingdom ) into grace ( spiritual Kingdom ) so while the prophecy of its coming is fulfilled, it still exists and serves a purpose .


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## welderguy (Jun 18, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Welder, the coming of the new Jerusalem was just like the old, only Jesus led His people out of captivity of the law ( flesh/carnal/physical Kingdom ) into grace ( spiritual Kingdom ) so while the prophecy of its coming is fulfilled, it still exists and serves a purpose .



So,if you say the Kingdom has already come in its fullness,what then is going to change when we are in heaven?
Don't you believe there are promises given to us that are to come in heaven?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 18, 2016)

welderguy said:


> So,if you say the Kingdom has already come in its fullness,what then is going to change when we are in heaven?
> Don't you believe there are promises given to us that are to come in heaven?



We will be wherever God is.

Promises...In His presence and Eternal life. I'm sure we will be instructed of anything else that matters after we arrive, but the Good book doesn't elaborate on what it will be like much...just what it takes to get there.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 20, 2016)

If it's a future event, what changes will we see if we are already in Heaven?


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## welderguy (Jun 20, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If it's a future event, what changes will we see if we are already in Heaven?



We will be sinless in every sense of the word.
There will be no more tears.
No more darkness.
No more time constraints.
No more satan.
No more death.
No more guessing and wondering what if...
No more goodbyes.
No more mockery.
No more disappointment.
No more physical limitations.
No more singing off key.
No more lying or cheating.
No more waiting...

I get tired of waiting...


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## hobbs27 (Jun 20, 2016)




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## welderguy (Jun 20, 2016)

Hobbs,
I agree that Adam (and consequently all mankind) died spiritually in the garden.But you cannot equate spiritual death with separation from God.
Although God drove them from the garden,that does not mean they were separated.God continued to interact with man and in fact it was said of Enoch that he walked with God.In the days of Seth,men began to call upon the Lord.Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.
My point is God's people are never forsaken by their Father because Jesus was forsaken in our place..

Jer.31:3
"...Yea,I have loved thee with an everlasting love;therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee."

Rom.8
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

Spiritual death or separation from God is commonly taught amongst Christians. Many in here believe they are spiritually dead before they are saved. I don't.

The separation means a veil was placed over Adam and all those in Adam during the old Covenant. This is why Hades was an important abode during the old Covenant..that old sinful man could not be in God or God in it.

This is what Christ fixed at the cross. Now we no longer have spiritual death. We enter Covenant through Christ's life giving blood. We are created in Covenant, just as Adam was, and God dwells with us.

Sure God loved the old Covenant saints, He sent them messengers, and eventually sent His only begotten Son as a sacrifice, but they only dreamed of the promise we live in.

Imputed sin caused a separation in God and man. While we still do immoral things as Christians, our sin is no longer imputed. Christ has/does cleanse us of it.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

"The belief that Christ's Second Advent, with its accompaniments of a resurrection and a judgment, took place at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem, rests on precisely the same basis as the expectation of these events ever taking place; namely, on the plain, emphatic, and continually-repeated statements of our Lord and His apostles given beforehand ... . [Jesus] himself predicted that these events would take place at the close of the Jewish dispensation. To Christian believers this affords the strongest possible presumption that they did take place, for to Christian believers His predictions are /history anticipated/! The /burden of proof/ in the argument rests not on those who assert, but on those who deny, the past advent. ... To deny the truth of His predictions because we are unable historically to verify a certain portion of them is simply to make manifest the shallowness of our faith in Him. To disprove the truth of those predictions would be to shake the Christian religion to its very foundations. Let God and God's Son be true, and, if need be, every mere man a liar!" -- Ernest Hampden-Cook (1860 - 1932)


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Spiritual death or separation from God is commonly taught amongst Christians. Many in here believe they are spiritually dead before they are saved. I don't.
> 
> The separation means a veil was placed over Adam and all those in Adam during the old Covenant. This is why Hades was an important abode during the old Covenant..that old sinful man could not be in God or God in it.
> 
> ...



They were not separated from God.They were separated from the covenants of promise.
Separation from God is reserved for the devil and his children.
Jesus suffered separation from His Father on the cross in the stead of His people.

Abraham had imputed sin,but he also had imputed righteousness through Jesus' blood,which trumps all sin.

Paul said while we were yet enemies of God in our minds,Christ died for us.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> They were not separated from God.They were separated from the covenants of promise.
> Separation from God is reserved for the devil and his children.
> Jesus suffered separation from His Father on the cross in the stead of His people.
> 
> ...


They were separated in there was no indwelling .

Where do you find Abraham had imputed righteousness? Romans?
 Do you not believe in Sheol/Hades as an abode for the dead?


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> They were separated in there was no indwelling .
> 
> Where do you find Abraham had imputed righteousness? Romans?
> Do you not believe in Sheol/Hades as an abode for the dead?



James 2
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

The grave(sheol) is not for spirits.Its for dead bodies.
When a person dies,their spirit goes immediately back to the Lord.
Always has.

Absent from the body is present with the Lord.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> James 2
> 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
> 
> The grave(sheol) is not for spirits.Its for dead bodies.
> ...



Ok, I'll explain Abraham in a bit, but you are way off on Sheol, and I wouldn't think you would be that far off on a topic.

 How many were in heaven when Jesus was sent to Earth?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

1 Samuel 28:7–20

7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman jthat hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman jthat hath a familiar spirit at kEn-dor. 8 And Saul ldisguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, mdivine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath ncut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, oAs the Lord liveth, there shall no ppunishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw qgods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, †What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with ra mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and sGod is departed from me, and tanswereth me no more, neither †by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, uWherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done ||to him, xas he spake by †me: for xthe Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 yBecause thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and zthy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20 Then Saul †fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Ok, I'll explain Abraham in a bit, but you are way off on Sheol, and I wouldn't think you would be that far off on a topic.
> 
> How many were in heaven when Jesus was sent to Earth?



Ecclesiastes 12:7
 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.



No man in a glorified body...yet.


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> 1 Samuel 28:7–20
> 
> 7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman jthat hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman jthat hath a familiar spirit at kEn-dor. 8 And Saul ldisguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, mdivine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee. 9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath ncut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die? 10 And Saul sware to her by the Lord, saying, oAs the Lord liveth, there shall no ppunishment happen to thee for this thing. 11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. 12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. 13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw qgods ascending out of the earth. 14 And he said unto her, †What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with ra mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
> 15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and sGod is departed from me, and tanswereth me no more, neither †by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do. 16 Then said Samuel, uWherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the Lord is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy? 17 And the Lord hath done ||to him, xas he spake by †me: for xthe Lord hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David: 18 yBecause thou obeyedst not the voice of the Lord, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the Lord done this thing unto thee this day. 19 Moreover the Lord will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and zthy sons be with me: the Lord also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
> 20 Then Saul †fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.



I don't understand the works of darkness,and I'm glad I don't.But for some reason God allowed Samuel's spirit to come back(as best I can tell).
He certainly wasn't trapped in the center of the earth,as you believe.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Ecclesiastes 12:7
> Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



Yes. God placed the Spirit in paradise, ie Abrahams bosom or in torments, both compartments of Sheol/Hades. See parable of the rich man and lazarus.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> No man in a glorified body...yet.



That's adding to the scripture...to make your understanding fit. Its like hammering a square peg in a round hole.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I don't understand the works of darkness,and I'm glad I don't.But for some reason God allowed Samuel's spirit to come back(as best I can tell).
> He certainly wasn't trapped in the center of the earth,as you believe.



I never said Sheol or Hades was in the center of the earth, its simply an abode for the old covenant dead. I had a conversation about this with a premillennial just the other day. I've sat under amillennial preachers, I know both recognize this fact...You're the first (studied?) person I've ever come across that outright denies the abode for the dead ones.  Im curious what makes you do this..is it predestination?


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I never said Sheol or Hades was in the center of the earth, its simply an abode for the old covenant dead. I had a conversation about this with a premillennial just the other day. I've sat under amillennial preachers, I know both recognize this fact...You're the first (studied?) person I've ever come across that outright denies the abode for the dead ones.  Im curious what makes you do this..is it predestination?



You do realize that the parable of the rich man and Lazerus is a parable right?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> You do realize that the parable of the rich man and Lazerus is a parable right?



Yes, are parables not the word of God?


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I never said Sheol or Hades was in the center of the earth, its simply an abode for the old covenant dead. I had a conversation about this with a premillennial just the other day. I've sat under amillennial preachers, I know both recognize this fact...You're the first (studied?) person I've ever come across that outright denies the abode for the dead ones.  Im curious what makes you do this..is it predestination?



Sheol is nothing more(to me) than the grave.A place to lay a dead body.
The fact that I believe in a physical bodily resurrection makes it much more sensible(to me) when I read texts like:

Psalm 139:8
" If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in he11,behold thou art there."

and:
  
Job 19:26
" And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God"


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## welderguy (Jun 21, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, are parables not the word of God?



Sure,but you must carefully consider their particular context and understand that every single detail may not be meant to be taken literally.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 21, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Ecclesiastes 12:7
> Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



How does God give each of us our spirit? I can see why LDS think we were in Heaven as spirits and God placed them in a body. 
If our spirit returns to God then we were already in existence.
I think it's more along the lines of breath;

"and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the life's breath returns to God who gave it."


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2016)

Welder ?

Luke 22:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God


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## welderguy (Jun 22, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Welder ?
> 
> Luke 22:43
> And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
> ...


.
Luke 23:46
"And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

Paradise is heaven.Jesus' spirit went to the Father as did the thief's.

After Jesus' resurrection,He told Mary not to hinder Him because He was going to His brethren(the disciples). NOT to hades.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2016)

welderguy said:


> .
> Luke 23:46
> "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."
> 
> ...



(Am not yet ascended to my Father)

Funny how things that are so clear, even after its broken down in its proper translation, and context can also be so perplexing to some.


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## welderguy (Jun 22, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> (Am not yet ascended to my Father)
> 
> Funny how things that are so clear, even after its broken down in its proper translation, and context can also be so perplexing to some.



He's simply saying He has not yet ascended in bodily form.He would do that 40 days later.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2016)

And no man hath ascended up to heaven.

Sorry, I just can't grasp your idea of adding ( glorified body) into this text.

If old Covenant man died and went to be with God at death....their only hope was to one day gain their fleshly body back? They longed for the flesh ? It makes no sense to me.


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## welderguy (Jun 22, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> And no man hath ascended up to heaven.
> 
> Sorry, I just can't grasp your idea of adding ( glorified body) into this text.
> 
> If old Covenant man died and went to be with God at death....their only hope was to one day gain their fleshly body back? They longed for the flesh ? It makes no sense to me.



Its not going to be an ordinary fleshly body when Jesus changes it.It will be a body fashioned like unto His glorious body.

Jesus was the "firstfruits of them that slept."We are the harvest that follows.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Its not going to be an ordinary fleshly body when Jesus changes it.It will be a body fashioned like unto His glorious body.
> 
> Jesus was the "firstfruits of them that slept."We are the harvest that follows.



Why then according to you, do the physical bodies raise out of the grave? What is its purpose?


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## welderguy (Jun 22, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Why then according to you, do the physical bodies raise out of the grave? What is its purpose?



I can only speculate but I believe it has a lot to do with our bodies being a temple.
But,I also believe we will have many different purposes in heaven.Purposes which would require a body.The way I look at it is if He created us with a purpose of glorifying Him even in our imperfect bodies in this life,how much MORE will we be able to glorify Him in a perfect body.

Hobbs, read 2 Cor.5:1-4(particularly vs.4) and tell me what you believe it's saying.

It reminds me of the time Jesus cast out the devils and they begged Him to send them into the swine.They couldn't stand the thought of not having a body to live in.I don't know.Maybe related?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I can only speculate but I believe it has a lot to do with our bodies being a temple.
> But,I also believe we will have many different purposes in heaven.Purposes which would require a body.The way I look at it is if He created us with a purpose of glorifying Him even in our imperfect bodies in this life,how much MORE will we be able to glorify Him in a perfect body.
> 
> Hobbs, read 2 Cor.5:1-4(particularly vs.4) and tell me what you believe it's saying.
> ...




 It reminds me more of when Jesus turned over the tables of the merchants in the Temple..Since we see the old covenant body dying and the new covenant body coming into life.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 22, 2016)

Regards heaven. This is attributed to some Pope, but even then I find it interesting....


 "the Heaven or happiness that Christianity looks forward to is, according to Pope John Paul II, "neither an abstraction nor a physical place in the clouds, but a living, personal relationship with the Holy Trinity. It is our meeting with the Father which takes place in the risen Christ through the communion of the Holy Spirit."[16]" Source is Wiki. Topic Heaven.

The reason(s) that I would say people what to resurrect bodily is because they are human and man ever had a physical body before and after the fall. In other words the creation of physical man is good. The flesh is not in fact the "flesh" . 2. People prayed ( David) that they would have loving relationship with God as man fully formed in spirit, flesh and full of Grace and for all time. ( And this seems a least a half decent prayer.) Man craves immortality... in comfort.

Maybe...


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## gordon 2 (Jun 22, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Why then according to you, do the physical bodies raise out of the grave? What is its purpose?



Physical bodies are instruments made to meet and receive love with an eye in sympathy to the fullness of all creation-- which fullness includes the goodness and nature of our Creator as far as man is concerned.

Maybe.


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## RH Clark (Jun 22, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Its not going to be an ordinary fleshly body when Jesus changes it.It will be a body fashioned like unto His glorious body.
> 
> Jesus was the "firstfruits of them that slept."We are the harvest that follows.



I've always looked to these scriptures as explaining quite well what will happen.

1 Corinthians 15:51-54King James Version (KJV)
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.



We see here that all will be changed into a glorious body without corruption or death. Both the dead in Christ and those remaining alive at his coming will be changed. This is when we receive our complete inheritance.

I think both will need a new body since we come back to the earth. In Revelations we see the saints returning with Christ to fight, and we see the New City Jerusalem descending from Heaven to the earth. The earth being a physical place will require new physical bodies.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 22, 2016)

What if..the new glorified body you were thinking of personally was The Body of Christ corporatley? What if we have already received it and we have eternal life now through faith?


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## welderguy (Jun 22, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> What if..the new glorified body you were thinking of personally was The Body of Christ corporatley? What if we have already received it and we have eternal life now through faith?



I don't think you understand what "glorified" means.
I think it"s the "gain" part of Paul's statement here:
"For me to live is Christ,but to die is gain."
They are both good,but the latter is far better.

Don't confuse the earnest(down payment) of our inheritance with the full inheritance that is to come.

Phil.4 says the Lord shall supply all your need(now),according to His RICHES IN GLORY.
We are joint heirs of those riches.(future)


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

Philippians 3 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.

Our body....not our bodies, but our body , plural (our) singular ( body).


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## welderguy (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Philippians 3 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
> 
> Our body....not our bodies, but our body , plural (our) singular ( body).



I agree.We are members of His body.

But,this does not change what I said in the previous post.
I still believe you are confusing the body's future inheritance with the earnest which it has presently.

It hasn't been glorified yet because we are not all gathered together.Some have probably not even been born yet.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Philippians 3 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.
> 
> Our body....not our bodies, but our body , plural (our) singular ( body).



Could Paul just have easily said this with the same meaning:

We are citizens of His kingdom, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, who will transform our lowly body (kingdom, a kingdom where man now dies physically) to conform to His glorious body (resurrected incorruptible)... where man knows not death spiritual or physical???

If Christ is new Adam, and in/to old Adam we are now because we yet complain physically and though some not spiritually, --- in new Adam it is His will that we be and this new Adam completely in us.???


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## welderguy (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Could Paul just have easily said this with the same meaning:
> 
> We are citizens of His kingdom, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, who will transform our lowly body (kingdom, a kingdom where man now dies physically) to conform to His glorious body (resurrected incorruptible)... where man knows not death spiritual or physical???



Exactly.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

Matt. 23:37
 Jesus speaking to the Pharisee and scribes, groaning over how He would have ( gathered) them as a hen does her chicks but they would not.

An investigation of this word ( gather) is very telling. Jesus wanted them to come together into His church...to come together in the body of Christ, not the body of Moses, but they would not.

Later we see Jesus is about to gather His elect . These first century believers were the elect, He was gathering them together in His glorified body...the church...the bride. To deny they have been gathered together is to deny a church exists.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Could Paul just have easily said this with the same meaning:
> 
> We are citizens of His kingdom, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, who will transform our lowly body (kingdom, a kingdom where man now dies physically) to conform to His glorious body (resurrected incorruptible)... where man knows not death spiritual or physical???
> 
> If Christ is new Adam, and in/to old Adam we are now because we yet complain physically and though some not spiritually, --- in new Adam it is His will that we be and this new Adam completely in us.???



I was never in Adam. To be in Adam one would be subject to the old Covenant and law.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Matt. 23:37
> Jesus speaking to the Pharisee and scribes, groaning over how He would have ( gathered) them as a hen does her chicks but they would not.
> 
> An investigation of this word ( gather) is very telling. Jesus wanted them to come together into His church...to come together in the body of Christ, not the body of Moses, but they would not.
> ...



How do you take this to mean  " to come together in the body of Christ"? I find this, your view, a peculiar way of interpreting this or mine is. And mine can be.

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

When I read this Jesus is identifying himself with God, as God the Father even and the Holy Spirit that sent the prophets throughout the history of the His chosen people. Simply Jesus is saying you refused and refuse now God's will, and yet you claim yourself his agents!

I don't see this as Jesus asking them to be gathered onto something new. He is just pointing out that by choice they always refused to be gathered up fully by their God.???


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## gemcgrew (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Matt. 23:37
> Jesus speaking to the Pharisee and scribes, groaning over how He would have ( gathered) them as a hen does her chicks but they would not.


"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13

Why did the religious leaders not want the children to be gathered?

"That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation." Matthew 23:35,36

The severity of God.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I was never in Adam. To be in Adam one would be subject to the old Covenant and law.



Darn! My mystical reasoning to you is no sub to Paul's!  So be it... 

I wish I was to Christ to such an extent as you are, for some reason I still seem to see Christ with Adam's eyes: a God that does not yet walk with me directly, and nor that I could stand before him fully uncovered .


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

gemcgrew said:


> "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13
> 
> Why did the religious leaders not want the children to be gathered?
> 
> ...



Yes.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Darn! My mystical reasoning to you is no sub to Paul's!  So be it...
> 
> I wish I was to Christ to such an extent as you are, for some reason I still seem to see Christ with Adam's eyes: a God that does not yet walk with me directly, and nor that I could stand before him fully uncovered .



Gordon...the elect in which were being gathered together were receiving the glorified body...the church.

Had apostate Israel come to Jesus as the mother hen, then they would have gathered together in worship through Christ,but they chose the temple made with hands...the one Jesus said He was going to tear down, and has . They no longer gather together in the Temple.

There was an elect though,a remnant out of Israel..the true Israel, and they were gathered together in the mother hen.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2016)

Going to Heaven as a spirit only to return to the earth. Why? If I'm already in Heaven, what future inheritance could I obtain?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Darn! My mystical reasoning to you is no sub to Paul's!  So be it...
> 
> I wish I was to Christ to such an extent as you are, for some reason I still seem to see Christ with Adam's eyes: a God that does not yet walk with me directly, and nor that I could stand before him fully uncovered .



Gordon...you weren't born into Adam.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Going to Heaven as a spirit only to return to the earth. Why? If I'm already in Heaven, what future inheritance could I obtain?



Well, you can't inherit things which belong to angels, and you can't inherit things which belong to God, but maybe you could inherit Hard Rock Candy Mountain, unrestricted hunting rights and with no bag limits and all the time no longer have belief in what you now can see and hear, touch and smell.

Maybe:


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon...you weren't born into Adam.



Ok... fine. I'm not going to die of this issue of birth.


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## RH Clark (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Ok... fine. I'm not going to die of this issue of birth.



No, because you were born into Christ when you were "born again". That's the meaning of "born again"

We aren't saved because we are forgiven. We aren't simply forgiven sinners. We are "IN CHRIST!" The only way anyone is saved is "in Christ." God isn't looking at Gordon and saying " Well Gordon you have certainly messed up but I forgive you because Jesus paid your sin price."

God doesn't see your sin because Gordon is dead. He was crucified with Christ. Gordon paid for his sins on the cross, so he cannot be judged for sin. The only life Gordon now has is "in Christ." Gordon is now resurrected "born again", and "in Christ.

Read these scriptures several times and meditate on them and on what I'm trying to show you about them.
 Romans 6:3-11King James Version (KJV)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> Simply Jesus is saying you refused and refuse now God's will, and yet you claim yourself his agents!
> 
> I don't see this as Jesus asking them to be gathered onto something new. He is just pointing out that by choice they always refused to be gathered up fully by their God.???



They were the ministers of the old Covenant. Which at that time was simply..The Covenant. But the seed of Abraham had appeared, and He was going to be collecting His inheritence soon. Their birthright was about to be overshadowed by faith in Christ..yes there was something New on the horizon.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> No, because you were born into Christ when you were "born again". That's the meaning of "born again"
> 
> We aren't saved because we are forgiven. We aren't simply forgiven sinners. We are "IN CHRIST!" The only way anyone is saved is "in Christ." God isn't looking at Gordon and saying " Well Gordon you have certainly messed up but I forgive you because Jesus paid your sin price."
> 
> ...



Yes Ok, but I have four broken teeth that are annoyances. Somehow they don't know that they are dead, the nerve! Or I am something else, my physical body is not really part of moi. 

But yes I know what you mean. 

In Revelation do not the saints in heaven crave for a return...or at least an other place or state in which they are? Even there they are troubled by injustice? They are freed from sin, but still troubled by its effects... ? Hum.

Hum that beef is not unique to Heaven. ?


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> They were the ministers of the old Covenant. Which at that time was simply..The Covenant. But the seed of Abraham had appeared, and He was going to be collecting His inheritence soon. Their birthright was about to be overshadowed by faith in Christ..yes there was something New on the horizon.



Ok. I agree, but I don't think they could have possibly understood this at this point. In their shoes, at that time, before the cross, I'm not sure if I would not have been on Paul's side.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2016)

Gordon, I'll see you there one day!


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## gordon 2 (Jun 23, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gordon, I'll see you their one day!



You realize that if we see each other there one day, we will see. And if I hear some saint talking paragraphs full of questions...I will hear most likely you? so we will hear.

If we cleave somewhat to Paul's logic, we are citizens of "there" now, yet exiled, but citizens. 

For me Heaven is a holding place perhaps since the Heavens will be wiped out some day. But also because Revelation tells me the saints there are waiting. 

But I might be wrong on this... 

In any case I would rejoice that the beatific vision be yours  bros. and that God personified or otherwise be our light.

If you mean the Big Rock Candy Mountain, well that's just a fable.... Yet we are all hobos of a kind, not willing to work our way there...


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 23, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> You realize that if we see each other there one day, we will see. And if I hear some saint talking paragraphs full of questions...I will hear most likely you? so we will hear.
> 
> If we cleave somewhat to Paul's logic, we are citizens of "there" now, yet exiled, but citizens.
> 
> ...



I think that the Big Rock Candy Mountain was an analogy of someone's Heaven. A place of milk and honey.
A place where one wouldn't have any needs. A place of peace away from violence, sickness, etc. 
A place where we don't have to work our way there.


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## Israel (Jun 24, 2016)

But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,…

The raised.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 24, 2016)

Israel said:


> But because of His great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ, even when we were dead in our trespasses. It is by grace you have been saved! And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,…
> 
> The raised.


Yes the raised..and that very word could also be , The resurrected, for they were resurrected from death to life. Death in the old Covenant, and life in the new. Death in Moses, life in Christ.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.


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## Israel (Jun 24, 2016)

Is all of Christ's body raised? Even (specifically) all that 'was" dead in sins and trespasses? When did this...thing...happen? And according to whose will?
Are there parts not (yet) raised? Was Paul raised on the road to Damascus...or did he find out...he had been raised with Christ?
In other words, was Paul already included in that resurrection...or did that _have to wait_ for him to find out? 
What about Gordon, Gem,  Hobbs, RH Clark, Hummer, Israel, Art, RJ Cruiser, BT Charlie, GT Parts, Tozer, CS Lewis,  Watchman Nee (if any be raised)...and forgive the scores that could be named, that are not...what of these...if they be raised...is it a recent thing as in "I'll opt for raising..."...or was it done, complete, finished...when Christ rose?

What of the captivity taken captive in that raising...who _was left behind_? What part of the body was in, or _left to_ "chance"? 

As in: "Maybe...this part will come"...or was the whole of Christ, raised? If it be so the "raising" was incomplete, as in (Father to Jesus)"look there's gonna be a June 26th, 2016, Son...we'll find out (then) what opts for raising..." then how, oh how, does the man tomorrow come to know he was raised with Christ...if indeed he has not already been, but is only _then raised_ at his own response to the truth of the gospel? But if he "has already been" raised...while yet in sins and trespasses today, dead...then "he might"..._we might_...discover tomorrow what part and whom else was also, and _already raised_. 

But to God? Is God waiting to "find out" if what He raised is complete? Is God hoping he will be "lucky" to discover His work is complete?

What did He raise, when did He raise, who did He raise (?) so that in HIS time...it might please Him to reveal His son in whosoever He will. As already raised. Christ may come forth out of "our earth"...and for us it may surely appear we had some hand in it. Until...

We see the only thing our hand could ever do...was what made the Lord's death necessary..."to us".
Be ye reconciled to God is not a plea of handwringing worry.
It is command. A man might be made able to assume the position of pleading under God's hand, and many will, no doubt, assume such a crushed visage to be deserving of one so misshapen among men. 
(But these are men to whom the chicken and egg argument ever remains appealing)

It's OK, it's the hand one answers to, not the broken vessel.

(BTW) The command to "go and preach the gospel" now then is not made moot, (But is made so when we make of it a "work", for then in truth, it is no gospel at all, just more of labors)but as is said, is given as gift to the "raised", less as in cause of "loss prevention" as _some might _still imagine...but as good practice for what is raised. For soon it will learn, if it has not already, that to the place it has been raised this is the most usual of conversation, and God would not have us feel any less at home there than good practice would develop in its obedience. Its pretty much all that is on the lips..."there"...(if it still must be "there")... the mercy of God.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 25, 2016)

What did He raise, when did He raise, and who did He raise

He raised the Bride. The Bride being Jerusalem, the Harlot, that great city, in which our Savior was killed. There's a couple of metaphors used to describe the raising of the Bride. The old physical covenant city died in child birth, and the child survived. 

That child being " the elect" or " the remnant".  For every " Day of the Lord" God had a remnant, and for His final day of the Lord in which ended the old covenant and consummated the marriage of the new. Those chosen few from the foundations of the world, established a new covenant with God...An everlasting unending covenant, in which the promises of it were given to Abraham. 

The timing of this could have been no other time than within the generation of the first century, it was near, at hand , and soon. The people of the first century were in the last days..John even proclaimed they were in the last hour.
The old was still hanging on to life but the new was coming into life, those first century Christians were feeling it's birth pangs, as the one was dying in child birth. Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. In Revelation we get a picture of the " when " , it comes when babylon is destroyed, so the question is, Who is this babylon? Babylon is in no doubt Jerusalem. She was destroyed in 70ad. Per Daniel 12, it came at the crushing of the power of the Holy people...their power was the city of Jerusalem, the Temple, and the law.

Who did He raise? Well a man must die to be raised from death. So it's easy to see how the old testament saints would be raised, but how do living men die? They died to sin , sin which the law exposed of mans nature. They died the same death their forefathers had died...a spiritual death that came " in that day" in the garden. A curse to all the descendants, until the Messiah would come.

 Some say the " The old testament is the new testament concealed, and the new testament is the old testament revealed" I agree, but I also wonder when people say this, do they really understand the implications of such a charge? 
 It means the Apostles preached the whole gospel out of the old testament...there is nothing "new" in the new testament, and if it was revealed, it must have been revealed in fulfillment.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 26, 2016)

Banjo Picker said:


> Matt. 25: 31-46
> The judgment of the nations ends the Age of Grace and begins the millennium. This description of judgment at the end of this age was the last part of the answer to the third question of the disciples "and of the end of the age?" This description of judgment tells us what Christ will do when He comes to Earth to set up His kingdom.
> The judgment will end man's sixth probationary period and will end man's sinful rule on the Earth. Jesus Christ in person, along with the resurrected saints of all ages, will reign on the Earth for a thousand years to put all enemies under His feet and re-establish the universal Kingdom of God. When the Kingdom of God is fully established Christ will reign forever, this judgment will determine who is worthy of entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven and who will be executed and cut off from entrance into the Kingdom. Dan. 12:12 will then be fulfilled , "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty day's," which is the actual day of the proclamation of the kingdom. This seventy-five days after the Battle of Armageddon, During this time the nations will be gathered  and judged, the Jews will be gathered and settled in the land of promise, and all necessary preliminary arrangements for the kingdom will be made.
> Thus Jesus answers the three questions asked Him by the disciples concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A. D., concerning signs of His second advent, and concerning what will take place when He comes to the Earth at the end of this age. This prophecy of Matt. 24-25 is the greatest one in the New Testament outside the book of Revelation.



The Olivet discourse cannot be divided like that.

https://adammaarschalk.com/2014/04/16/luke-17-shows-that-matthew-24-cant-be-divided/


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