# The day the circus came to church



## tell sackett (Aug 1, 2009)

I just wanted to recommend the column by this title in the new(Jul.30) edition of the Christian Index by Don Hattaway(Senior Pastor@Tabernacle Baptist Church,Cartersville). He absolutely hits the nail on the head.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 1, 2009)

where can we read it?


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## tell sackett (Aug 1, 2009)

christianindex.org, go to current issue. It's a bi-weekly paper put out by the GBC.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 1, 2009)

Thanks it is a good read. Although at points he borders on legalism. 
I have no qualms about a "rock band" at church. Most (including myself) sing louder when we are drowned out. I can make a joyful noise while not making peoples ears bleed. As long as everyone worships God and not the instruments, why not? David was extreme in his time for worship. 
I could see some church folks back then-"stop dancing around, tone down the music, do we need all these instruments?" lol
As for jeans and flip-flops, while I believe we should respect the sanctity of Church, we should welcome all. Then the Holy Spirit can convict whom he wishes to wear more appropriate clothing.

It is scary to see some messages I have heard on tv. I can only imagine how the church advertises or whatever.
The beer and sex billboards shocked me. We need to be real, but geeze...


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## tell sackett (Aug 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Thanks it is a good read. Although at points he borders on legalism.
> I have no qualms about a "rock band" at church. Most (including myself) sing louder when we are drowned out. I can make a joyful noise while not making peoples ears bleed. As long as everyone worships God and not the instruments, why not? David was extreme in his time for worship.
> I could see some church folks back then-"stop dancing around, tone down the music, do we need all these instruments?" lol
> As for jeans and flip-flops, while I believe we should respect the sanctity of Church, we should welcome all. Then the Holy Spirit can convict whom he wishes to wear more appropriate clothing.
> ...


ddd: I think the pendulem has swung so far the other way, it's time for a little legalism. I fear we have lost our righteous fear of El Shaddai and tried to make Him our big buddy. As Pastor Hattaway said we are becoming less God centered and more man centered.
We'll just have to disagree about the music,I'm a believer in the hymns and don't care for rock bands in church(although some of the worship music is pretty good).On a personal note, my singing doesn't need the help of a rock band to make people's ears bleed​As for the jeans and flip flops, I agree that all should be welcomed to our churches,but when we have people who profess to be believers coming to church dressed like this,I believe this is an indication of pastors who are more concerned with being man pleasers than feeding the flock and teaching a proper reverence for God.​


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 1, 2009)

Ah, yes. Too much man-pleasing. I agree. I will extend the man-centered view to encompass both the congregation and deacons/elders/leadership. 

Legalism is scary. I say let the Holy Spirit convict whom he will. Now, if a sinner comes to Christ all tatted up, try and cover it up but don't be afraid to come to church for fear of "looks." If you are saved and want a tat, check your spiritual awareness and your standing. 

I myself find myself debating over where the "line" is when advertising for church or presenting new sermons or worship music. On one hand, you should move with the times and not be afraid to tell it like it is. You should also be able to excel in music or teaching or whatever. If that means using computers and power point and rock bands, so be it. BUT preach and teach and sing the word of God. Do not sugar coat it or allow things God wouldn't allow. It's a hard row to hoe when everyone is so quick to point the finger.


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## Mako22 (Aug 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Thanks it is a good read. Although at points he borders on legalism.
> I have no qualms about a "rock band" at church. Most (including myself) sing louder when we are drowned out. I can make a joyful noise while not making peoples ears bleed. As long as everyone worships God and not the instruments, why not? David was extreme in his time for worship.
> I could see some church folks back then-"stop dancing around, tone down the music, do we need all these instruments?" lol
> As for jeans and flip-flops, while I believe we should respect the sanctity of Church, we should welcome all. Then the Holy Spirit can convict whom he wishes to wear more appropriate clothing.
> ...



Sin did not stop being sin just because we are in the day of grace. The charge of legalism is often a smoke screen used to attack others who call sin what it is, sin.


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## Israel (Aug 1, 2009)

How far down that rabbit hole you really wanna go?
You wanna talk about man centered instead of God centered, then you can't help but look at denominationalism/sectarianism/religious divisions based on "style" of worship, non spiritual (and non scriptural) "hiring" /firing /calling of leadership and last but not leastly...sticking the name "church" on a sign outside a building thinking that Jesus has many different brides...according to the preference of the attendee.

Paul said something regarding communion that is not at all out of keeping with this kind of discussion...for Paul already saw the divisions happening that would rend the body and make the church all but inneffectual in its disunity...till the Lord's appointed time to bring her out of the wilderness...

1 Corinthians 11: 17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.

So much "stuff" gets done in the Lord's name that does more harm than good, more damage than health.

The carnal man says "well...at least WE are doing something"...

Better to do nothing and wait...




and wait































wait, I say


















upon the Lord.


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## post450 (Aug 1, 2009)

I don't mean to stir and certainly don't mean to disrespect the OP, but scripturally speaking the conclusions of Mr. Hattaway do not hold up and are ultimately his opinions, typical of a passing generation's mentality that change is evil and the old way is the only way. He does make some valid points about the extremes some churches go to, but he lumps everything contemporary in the same group which is not fair. 

I am still under 40 and I have preteen kids. Would I expect them to be excited about going to 3 "boring" church services per week consisting exclusively of 150 year old hymns sang with very little enthusiasm and a spiritual dead man reading some scriptures and making a few observations? No, I wouldn't want to endure that myself, but unfortunately that is the point many churches have declined to in the past 25 years. And for the record, I do not own a suit. I wear jeans to work, church, eating establishments, pretty much everywhere I go, does that make me ineffective, disrespectful, or evil? The best I can tell is that our Saviour wore sandals or went barefoot most of the time. The true praise and worship of God and the preaching/teaching of his word is not boring, traditions are. God is not concerned with dress codes, he is concerned with people's hearts. It is not that this generation has lost confidence in the Power of the Gospel as suggested by Mr. Hattaway, this generation has lost confidence in churches and see many church's spiritual deaths. 

As to the context of worship, does God not recognize throngs of young people lifting their hands and voices to praise Him? Apparently not if they have on jeans or flip flops or if a guitar or drum are playing. According his way of thinking God can only be please by the half hearted singing of hymns to the piano or organ while dressed in their Sunday best. I would refer to II Timothy 2:8-9 and John 4:23-24.

If the message of Jesus Christ is going forth, then we should rejoice according to Philipians 1:15-18. It is a shame that the church today has became so centered on these man made traditions and orders of service. I guess articles like this are one of the exact reasons for the very first article listed on that site which was "Baptists face further decline without renewed evangelism emphasis" . 

Just my $0.02.


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## jmharris23 (Aug 1, 2009)

Some good and bad in the article but I appreciate his heart.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2009)

These days, one of the common church discussions is:  "How do we want to worship God" rather than  "Let's make sure that we worship God".
I fear many people spend 5 or 6 hours a week involved in church worship activities but don't actually worship God.  
But they're having fun fun fun.


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## Mako22 (Aug 1, 2009)

When I hear Amazing grace or Power in the blood or Saved to the utermost or Victory in Jesus I do not sing it half heartedly. The words to those great old hymns speak to my soul and make me rejoice. Sadly the words to any song written by Third Day or some other modern Christian rock group do not move me. All modern Christian rock music does is move the flesh. The modern Church with it's praise and worship bands delivers a message based more on psychology than the Bible. The desire there is to excite the flesh and translate that into spirituality which is not possible. I was in a service one time where the group singing the special for the night started singing "It's still the blood" from one of those old hymnals some despise. They sang it thru at least 20 times until they couldn't go any further as the church just about came apart with rejoicing, shouting, raising of hands and praising God. This was in an old time Baptist church where some would say such things don't happen with 150 year old hymns on the menu.


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## farmasis (Aug 1, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> When I hear Amazing grace or Power in the blood or Saved to the utermost or Victory in Jesus I do not sing it half heartedly. The words to those great old hymns speak to my soul and make me rejoice. Sadly the words to any song written by Third Day or some other modern Christian rock group do not move me. All modern Christian rock music does is move the flesh. The modern Church with it's praise and worship bands delivers a message based more on psychology than the Bible. The desire there is to excite the flesh and translate that into spirituality which is not possible. I was in a service one time where the group singing the special for the night started singing "It's still the blood" from one of those old hymnals some despise. They sang it thru at least 20 times until they couldn't go any further as the church just about came apart with rejoicing, shouting, raising of hands and praising God. This was in an old time Baptist church where some would say such things don't happen with 150 year old hymns on the menu.


 

That is why it is great to have different worship styles. The Bible says to raise Jesus up and he will draw all men to him. It doesn't say how. 

Those 150 year old songs were once cutting edge new stuff, and when they came out somebody probably said "The words to those great old hymns speak to my soul and make me rejoice. Sadly the words to any song written by these young whipper snappers do not move me. "

Most churches that still cling to those old hymns are the deadest places to be in. Hard to find the Holy Spirit in them. Give me a modern Christian song anyday and a church with life.


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## farmasis (Aug 1, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> Sin did not stop being sin just because we are in the day of grace. The charge of legalism is often a smoke screen used to attack others who call sin what it is, sin.


 

What sin did the pastor expose that you agree needed to be exposed?

Seems to me this pastor is the one who does not understand the Great Commision. He wants to reach people for Christ, but only those that dress the part, like his music, worships the way he does, etc. To me, THAT is sin!


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 1, 2009)

I wonder what some on here would have said when churches first introduced a piano into worship!! And then again when those darn women folk started showing wrists and ankles!!!


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 1, 2009)

While it is a good article it is a bit narrow in perspective. What he is suggesting is that Christianity should now, after a millenium of constant change, reform and conformation, stop and take a staunch stand on it's doctrine, regardless of what the enemy does in his advancement upon our society.

There have always been churches that operated outside of the norm (figuratively) and those that operate on a sub-standard traditional level. Which is worse, the one that is over performing or the one that is under performing?


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 1, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> There have always been churches that operated outside of the norm (figuratively) and those that operate on a sub-standard traditional level. Which is worse, the one that is over performing or the one that is under performing?


 
Depends on what you aim is... "feeding the sheep or amusing the goats"

DB BB


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 1, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Depends on what you aim is... "feeding the sheep or amusing the goats"
> 
> DB BB


 
Popeye and Roadrunner were suffecient for me, doesn't seem my kid has any interest in that type cartoon.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I wonder what some on here would have said when churches first introduced a piano into worship!! And then again when those darn women folk started showing wrists and ankles!!!




It created an uproar throughout the entire Christian church worldwide.


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## farmasis (Aug 1, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Depends on what you aim is... "feeding the sheep or amusing the goats"
> 
> DB BB


 

When saved folks realize church is not about them, they will be more sensitive to other's needs.

Church should be about reaching the goats.


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## post450 (Aug 2, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> ......Sadly the words to any song written by Third Day or some other modern Christian rock group do not move me. All modern Christian rock music does is move the flesh. The modern Church with it's praise and worship bands delivers a message based more on psychology than the Bible. ........



Woodsman, you appear prejudiced against something simply because it's different, not because of what it stands for or consists of. Here is the first verse of Third Day's My Hope Is In You:

"To you, O Lord, I lift my soul

In you, O God, I place my trust

Do not let me be put to shame

Nor let my enemies triumph over me."

Try comparing this verse against Psalm 25:1-2. 

Or this one to Psalm 36:5-6:

"Your love, oh Lord  Reaches to the heavens

Your faithfulness stretches to the sky

Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains

Your justice flows like the ocean's tide."

Ephesians 5:19 says "Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;"

Here is the first of one of Chris Tomlin's new songs:

"He became sin, who knew no sin

That we might become His righteousness

He humbled himself and carried the cross"

The message is the same, just the presentation has changed. If it doesn't minister to you, that's fine, but to ban it from your church or from your children seems wrong.

My whole point is because generations have embraced something does not determine whether it is good or acceptable or that the future generations will embrace the same things. The church must be able to reach this upcoming generation and in my opinion it is a shame that some older folks are so set in their ways and preferences that they condemn anything that is different. If this music ministers to them and gets them in then we should rejoice. This is music, not the Gospel which is the only thing that will never change and last forever. 

The Apostles never sang the any one of revered hymns you listed and honestly the wording of some of these praise and worship songs are probably closer in wording to songs and psalms referenced in Ephesians by the Apostle Paul. Man invented the piano, the organ, the guitar, the drums, and so on. Why would God prefer anyone one man made instrument? I have saw some extremely talented Baptist piano players that can get just as carried away with their playing as any contemporary guitarist. When it starts being about the player it ceases to be worship and becomes entertainment regardless of the genre.

As to the scriptural soundness of song, I will concede that some contemporary Christian music is severely lacking, but so are some hymns, like The Old Gospel Ship, In the Garden, or I'll Be a Friend to Jesus. I am not aware of any scriptures that reference a Gospel ship, or God walking in the garden with believers, or Jesus needing any of us to be his friend.

DB we were all goats at one point in our lives.


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## farmasis (Aug 2, 2009)

Or how about this:

I believe in God the Father, 
Almighty Maker of heaven and Maker of earth,
And in Jesus Christ 
His only begotten son our Lord.
He was conceived by the Holy Spirt, 
born of the virgin Mary.
Suffered under Pontius Pilot 
where he was crucified dead and buried.

[Chorus:]
And I believe what I believe in 
is what makes me what I am.
And I did not make it, 
no it is making me
It is the very truth of God 
and not the invention of any man.

I believe that He who suffered
was crucified, buried and dead.
He descended into Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----
and on the third day He rose again.
He ascended into heaven 
where He sits at God's mighty right hand.
I believe that He's returning to judge
the quick and the dead of the sons of men.

I believe it, I believe it. I believe it.
I believe it, I believe it. I believe it.

I believe in God the Father, 
Almighty Maker of Heaven and Maker of earth
And in Jesus Christ His
only begotten Son our Lord.
I believe int the Holy Spirit, 
one Holy Church
The communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sin
I believe in the resurrection
I believe in a life that never ends. 


​​​​Compared to the Apostle's creed from 700AD​​http://www.carm.org/christianity/creeds-and-confessions/apostles-creed​​​​​​<SCRIPT language=javascript type=text/javascript>load_options();</SCRIPT>


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 2, 2009)

post450 said:


> Woodsman, you appear prejudiced against something simply because it's different, not because of what it stands for or consists of. Here is the first verse of Third Day's My Hope Is In You:
> 
> "To you, O Lord, I lift my soul
> 
> ...



Awesome post!!!!!!!! I agree wholeheartedly...

except  Jesus DID say if you keep my commandments you are my friends...And other things about being a friend. Other than that...


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## jmharris23 (Aug 2, 2009)

What I really have a hard time believing is not the spirit in which this article was written, but how narrow minded some Christian people are. That goes for people on both sides of the contemporary vs traditional worship argument.


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## tell sackett (Aug 2, 2009)

I've got to say I'm surprised at the size of some of the brushes being used in this thread. I didn't expect everyone to agree, but it seems Pastor Hattaway is being accused of saying some things I don't see in the column.
Nowhere in the article does he condemn all music but hymns or does he say his way is the only way to worship. He doesn't say change is evil, just the opposite. He says we must be more effective in communicating the gospel.
This article to me is a warning about some churches(not all) becoming so much like the world that the world doesn't see a difference. Remember, come out from among them and be ye seperate. We should always remember that it's God's house, not our's and we are to worship Him in holiness and truth.
I admit there are places in the article where he skates a fine line, but I don't see some of the things he's being accused of.


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## tell sackett (Aug 2, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> What I really have a hard time believing is not the spirit in which this article was written, but how narrow minded some Christian people are. That goes for people on both sides of the contemporary vs traditional worship argument.


True dat.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> When saved folks realize church is not about them, they will be more sensitive to other's needs.
> 
> Church should be about reaching the goats.


 
Excellent point.


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## pigpen1 (Aug 2, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> I've got to say I'm surprised at the size of some of the brushes being used in this thread. I didn't expect everyone to agree, but it seems Pastor Hattaway is being accused of saying some things I don't see in the column.
> Nowhere in the article does he condemn all music but hymns or does he say his way is the only way to worship. He doesn't say change is evil, just the opposite. He says we must be more effective in communicating the gospel.
> This article to me is a warning about some churches(not all) becoming so much like the world that the world doesn't see a difference. Remember, come out from among them and be ye seperate. We should always remember that it's God's house, not our's and we are to worship Him in holiness and truth.
> I admit there are places in the article where he skates a fine line, but I don't see some of the things he's being accused of.



 I agree with you also. I have said the Church is like a boat and the world is like the water. All is well as long as it stays that way, but when the water starts coming into the boat it will sink if it is not stopped.

  Call me a legalist, that's fine, I've been called worse.

 When did the Church have the most power, years ago or now?

 The Bible teaches of the falling away and the condition of the churches in the last days. We are there.....when people call good bad and bad good.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Aug 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> The Bible teaches of the falling away and the condition of the churches in the last days. We are there.....when people call good bad and bad good.


 
That is a sad commentary. I will rejoice in the day that Christians concentrate on living their lives for a purpose other than one that concerns the "last days".

Do you realize how many generations have echoed your exact words over the last 2000 years.?


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## Israel (Aug 2, 2009)

Besides "edited to remove profanity, edited to remove profanity, edited to remove profanity, edited to remove profanity," what could be funnier?
I know...everyone is "doing their best".
Would to God we would all stop our own "doing"


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## ambush80 (Aug 2, 2009)

What was it that ya'll agree on again?


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## Israel (Aug 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> What was it that ya'll agree on again?



That we're better than atheists...I think...

But God's working on that, too.
With a big ole sledge.


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 2, 2009)

Israel said:


> That we're better than atheists...I think...
> 
> But God's working on that, too.
> With a big ole sledge.




Funny Thing about the Sledge, It's usually reserved for the willing.

But what type of man willingly places himself between the Hammer and Anvil?


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## pigpen1 (Aug 2, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> That is a sad commentary. I will rejoice in the day that Christians concentrate on living their lives for a purpose other than one that concerns the "last days".
> 
> Do you realize how many generations have echoed your exact words over the last 2000 years.?



And your point is???????????


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## aus.1657 (Aug 2, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> That is a sad commentary. I will rejoice in the day that Christians concentrate on living their lives for a purpose other than one that concerns the "last days".
> Do you realize how many generations have echoed your exact words over the last 2000 years.?


And I will rejoice in the days when those who concentrate on what I concentrate on, pack up and go to another church. One that will make them happy.
Isn't freedom grand!  Byeeeeeeeee


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 2, 2009)

farmasis said:


> When saved folks realize church is not about them, they will be more sensitive to other's needs.
> 
> Church should be about reaching the goats.


 


post450 said:


> DB we were all goats at one point in our lives.


 
Church is about edifying the Members.

The Great Commission(which is commanded that we all do) is for reaching the Goats...

When people realize that church is not about them, and about God and only about God, then and only then will you have true worship.

Being sensitive to other's needs is rediculous brother... Was Jesus Sensitive to the people He whipped out of the temple?

What is next sensitivity training for Christians so that we do not offend others?  The Gospel offends, particulary to those that want nothing to do with it.

DB BB


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## aus.1657 (Aug 2, 2009)

The problem with this "open mindedness" about dress codes for church is there is no limit to what human beings will come up with when left undisciplined.
Example:  This morning in the hallway outside our "Sunday School Debating Society" stood a young girl about 16 maybe, in short shorts up to you-know-where and a halter top showing her bare middle with a diamond in her navel.  Headed for the sanctuary to sing.
Nobody said a word...she was the granddaughter of one of the deacons.


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## farmasis (Aug 2, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Church is about edifying the Members.
> 
> The Great Commission(which is commanded that we all do) is for reaching the Goats...
> 
> ...


 
A job should be to edify believers. A believer who is edified, should then seek out lost souls and not sit back and expect to be entertained to his/her liking. The church's main goal should be to reach the lost. To bring them in and let them hear the gospel. If that takes changing the tempo of the songs to be sensitive to others and if you don't won't to because it is something you do not like, then you impede the Holy Spirit. We are not talking about allowing gambling in the sanctuary, and Yes Jesus was sensitive to reaching others. What ever it takes to win a soul, as long as it is not against scripture, should be used.

It is not the lost ones getting offended, it is the stuck in the mud folks who resist change to reach someone.


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 3, 2009)

Paul became all things to all people... 
I can imagine some of us being the Pharisees or even Martha, instead of being Mary who worshipped the Lord with her tears. Jesus was not concerned with what she wore, how she cried, whether she spoke in tongues, how she sang, he was just glad she worshipped with her heart. 

The girl with the un-appropriate attire should know better-especially if her relatives are deacons and she is saved. Someone in a position of authority should begin to explain to the girl Paul's "Modesty and Moderation" principles. We Christians should hold ourselves to a higher standard.


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## tell sackett (Aug 3, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Paul became all things to all people...
> I can imagine some of us being the Pharisees or even Martha, instead of being Mary who worshipped the Lord with her tears. Jesus was not concerned with what she wore, how she cried, whether she spoke in tongues, how she sang, he was just glad she worshipped with her heart.
> 
> The girl with the un-appropriate attire should know better-especially if her relatives are deacons and she is saved. Someone in a position of authority should begin to explain to the girl Paul's "Modesty and Moderation" principles. We Christians should hold ourselves to a higher standard.


ddd. I agree with you that we can become like the pharisees if we aren't very careful, but we can also go the other way and be like the worldly Corinthian church too. It can be a balancing act and we all need to be diligent in seeking out what God would have us to do.
As to the second part of your post, I can hear the thud of our pastor's foot coming down if that happened in our church. Somebody would get their feelings hurt I'm afraid. It would be one thing if this was a visitor who didn't know any better, but for a member to come dressed like that and think they were going to sing? Uh, no, not hardly.


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## christianhunter (Aug 3, 2009)

Woodsman69 said:


> When I hear Amazing grace or Power in the blood or Saved to the utermost or Victory in Jesus I do not sing it half heartedly. The words to those great old hymns speak to my soul and make me rejoice. Sadly the words to any song written by Third Day or some other modern Christian rock group do not move me. All modern Christian rock music does is move the flesh. The modern Church with it's praise and worship bands delivers a message based more on psychology than the Bible. The desire there is to excite the flesh and translate that into spirituality which is not possible. I was in a service one time where the group singing the special for the night started singing "It's still the blood" from one of those old hymnals some despise. They sang it thru at least 20 times until they couldn't go any further as the church just about came apart with rejoicing, shouting, raising of hands and praising God. This was in an old time Baptist church where some would say such things don't happen with 150 year old hymns on the menu.



I see your point,but the song "I Can Only Imagine".A new contemporary song(few years old)is a powerful song.There are some out there,that are good.Music should change IMO,We do.A man changes,but isn't he the same man.Keep the old,but let some new in.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 3, 2009)

farmasis said:


> A job should be to edify believers. A believer who is edified, should then seek out lost souls and not sit back and expect to be entertained to his/her liking. The church's main goal should be to reach the lost. To bring them in and let them hear the gospel. If that takes changing the tempo of the songs to be sensitive to others and if you don't won't to because it is something you do not like, then you impede the Holy Spirit. We are not talking about allowing gambling in the sanctuary, and Yes Jesus was sensitive to reaching others. What ever it takes to win a soul, as long as it is not against scripture, should be used.
> 
> It is not the lost ones getting offended, it is the stuck in the mud folks who resist change to reach someone.


 
How do you know that it is the Holy Spirit wanting the changing in Tempo and not the selfishness of people?

I know this is going to hit a nerve with some folks, but I don't see much difference in some of today's style of worship and gambling...

What ever it takes to win a soul.... It takes Jesus and that is it, if it takes anything else then we have lost sight of the Gospel.

The Gospel is becoming more man-centered everyday... The Gospel is the most precious part of Christianity... Something that should be treasured and preserved...

It is not the lost getting offended? Really? The lost want nothing to do with God... The lost know nothing of God, except for what verses that choose to use out of context the favorite of which is Matthew 7:1.

The ones you call the sticks in the mud.... wondering if they are called sticks in the mud because they are standing for what is right?

DB BB


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 3, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> How do you know that it is the Holy Spirit wanting the changing in Tempo and not the selfishness of people?
> 
> I know this is going to hit a nerve with some folks, but I don't see much difference in some of today's style of worship and gambling...
> 
> ...



Well, I hope you guys don't sing songs or play music. Because all it takes is Jesus. 

The point is worship; not soul-winning, although many can be saved through worship. 
There are examples of those who worshipped right out of their clothes. I imagine they did whatever it took to find the presence of God.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 3, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Ah, yes. Too much man-pleasing. I agree. I will extend the man-centered view to encompass both the congregation and deacons/elders/leadership.
> 
> Legalism is scary. I say let the Holy Spirit convict whom he will. Now, if a sinner comes to Christ all tatted up, try and cover it up but don't be afraid to come to church for fear of "looks." If you are saved and want a tat, check your spiritual awareness and your standing.
> 
> I myself find myself debating over where the "line" is when advertising for church or presenting new sermons or worship music. On one hand, you should move with the times and not be afraid to tell it like it is. You should also be able to excel in music or teaching or whatever. If that means using computers and power point and rock bands, so be it. BUT preach and teach and sing the word of God. Do not sugar coat it or allow things God wouldn't allow. It's a hard row to hoe when everyone is so quick to point the finger.



ddd....we've had differences in opinions before, but I must say I agree with you on this one.

Legalism is a dangerous road to go down.  Once you start, where do you stop?




Double Barrel BB said:


> Depends on what you aim is... "feeding the sheep or amusing the goats"
> 
> DB BB



Great question.



farmasis said:


> Church should be about reaching the goats.





wrong answer.  Seems like the first church meetings recorded in Acts were believers and followers of Christ.  Now....this didn't stop Peter and later Paul from preaching to lost...just no need to give the gospel message week after week and sing "Just as I am" hoping someone realizes that everyone doesn't want to sing 20 verses before going to lunch that day.


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## christianhunter (Aug 3, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> ddd....we've had differences in opinions before, but I must say I agree with you on this one.
> 
> Legalism is a dangerous road to go down.  Once you start, where do you stop?
> 
> ...



That brings up another matter,a Pastor who has to keep an eye on his watch.So everyone can be on time for their favorite restaurant.Do you want the "meat"of the WORD,or the meat at the buffet?
It shouldn't matter,how many times the members have to sing,to have a lost sinner come to CHRIST.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 3, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Well, I hope you guys don't sing songs or play music. Because all it takes is Jesus.
> 
> The point is worship; not soul-winning, although many can be saved through worship.
> There are examples of those who worshipped right out of their clothes. I imagine they did whatever it took to find the presence of God.


 
Does it take anything except Jesus to Save? Is our Salvation based on the latest Christian praise song? Or is it based on Jesus? Is our Salvation based on the latest play that is acted out in our churches? Or is it based on Jesus?

We do sing, but we do not place an emphasis on singing.  We place an emphasis on Preaching.

"worshipped right out of their cloths"... where do you find this in the Bible? I don't recall ever seeing it...

DB BB


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## leroy (Aug 3, 2009)

we have a traditional service and a contemporary alot of the older members were against the contemporary at first but it now outnumbers the traditional. We have several small Churches that are almost to the point of being dead and one reason is they are not willing to change. You should never take away from Gods word but you can change up your approach or delivery.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 3, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> That brings up another matter,a Pastor who has to keep an eye on his watch.So everyone can be on time for their favorite restaurant.Do you want the "meat"of the WORD,or the meat at the buffet?
> It shouldn't matter,how many times the members have to sing,to have a lost sinner come to CHRIST.


 

Our pastore doesn't keep an eye on his watch... I like it that way...  Preach as long as God has it laid on your heart!

The problem is there is too many people more concerned about the meat at the buffet, than feasting on the "Meat" of the Word of God, and that is very very sad...

DB BB


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## leroy (Aug 3, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Does it take anything except Jesus to Save? Is our Salvation based on the latest Christian praise song? Or is it based on Jesus? Is our Salvation based on the latest play that is acted out in our churches? Or is it based on Jesus?
> 
> We do sing, but we do not place an emphasis on singing.  We place an emphasis on Preaching.
> 
> ...



Our emphasis is on preaching but we sometimes change up the music.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 3, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> wrong answer. Seems like the first church meetings recorded in acts were believers and followers of christ. Now....this didn't stop peter and later paul from preaching to lost...just no need to give the gospel message week after week and sing "just as i am" hoping someone realizes that everyone doesn't want to sing 20 verses before going to lunch that day.


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## farmasis (Aug 5, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> wrong answer. Seems like the first church meetings recorded in Acts were believers and followers of Christ. Now....this didn't stop Peter and later Paul from preaching to lost...just no need to give the gospel message week after week and sing "Just as I am" hoping someone realizes that everyone doesn't want to sing 20 verses before going to lunch that day.


 
I cannot believe the number of Christians who does not think the goal of the church is to reach the lost. No wonder we have lost our direction!

In my Bible, the early church preached to the lost and many, many were added. They did not sit around and serve themselves.

 <SUP id=en-NIV-26979 class=versenum value="40">*40*</SUP>With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, "Save yourselves from this corrupt generation." <SUP id=en-NIV-26980 class=versenum value="41">*41*</SUP>Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day. (Acts 2)

*<SUP>47</SUP>*praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. (Acts 2)

*<SUP>4</SUP>*But many who heard the message believed, and the number of men grew to about five thousand. (Acts 4)

*<SUP>14</SUP>*Nevertheless, more and more men and women believed in the Lord and were added to their number. (Acts 5)

 <SUP id=en-NIV-27098 class=versenum value="7">*7*</SUP>So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith. (Acts 6)

 <SUP id=en-NIV-27236 class=versenum value="31">*31*</SUP>Then the church throughout Judea, Galilee and Samaria enjoyed a time of peace. It was strengthened; and encouraged by the Holy Spirit, it grew in numbers, living in the fear of the Lord. (Acts 9)

*<SUP>20</SUP>*Some of them, however, men from Cyprus and Cyrene, went to Antioch and began to speak to Greeks also, telling them the good news about the Lord Jesus. <SUP id=en-NIV-27317 class=versenum value="21">*21*</SUP>The Lord's hand was with them, and a great number of people believed and turned to the Lord. (Acts 11)

*<SUP>24</SUP>*He was a good man, full of the Holy Spirit and faith, and a great number of people were brought to the Lord. (Acts 11)


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## Tim L (Aug 7, 2009)

aus.1657 said:


> The problem with this "open mindedness" about dress codes for church is there is no limit to what human beings will come up with when left undisciplined.
> Example:  This morning in the hallway outside our "Sunday School Debating Society" stood a young girl about 16 maybe, in short shorts up to you-know-where and a halter top showing her bare middle with a diamond in her navel.  Headed for the sanctuary to sing.
> Nobody said a word...she was the granddaughter of one of the deacons.



I don't have a strong opinion either way about the music part of this discussion (you can make a joyful noise unto the lord either with traditional hymns or contemporary music), but I do regarding the dress code.  I have heard and seen people get all upset when you try to say that it does matter what you wear to church, their say that the lord doesn't care what cloths you wear, but ask yourself this: if you don't have enough respect for the lord to wear your good cloths to church, then who or what do you respect so much that you would wear them there instead of church... What I'm saying here can be real easy to misunderstand....I'm not saying folks should be all decked out, trying to outdo each other, thats not the point....But you should dress in a respectful manner when you attend church....I'm not saying men have to always wear a tie and white shirt, but you can wear long pants and tuck your shirt tail in...I've seen guys (people that are not poor) come to church in tank tops, shorts, and sandals....to me, that is being disrespecful to the lord....again, if you do not have enough respect for the lord to wear what you consider your good clothes to be, who or what do you respect so much when you wear them??  Again, it would be real easy to misunderstand what I'm saying here, but its about respect, not "dressing up" to impress others..


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 7, 2009)

Rouster said:


> I don't have a strong opinion either way about the music part of this discussion (you can make a joyful noise unto the lord either with traditional hymns or contemporary music), but I do regarding the dress code.  I have heard and seen people get all upset when you try to say that it does matter what you wear to church, their say that the lord doesn't care what cloths you wear, but ask yourself this: if you don't have enough respect for the lord to wear your good cloths to church, then who or what do you respect so much that you would wear them there instead of church... What I'm saying here can be real easy to misunderstand....I'm not saying folks should be all decked out, trying to outdo each other, thats not the point....But you should dress in a respectful manner when you attend church....I'm not saying men have to always wear a tie and white shirt, but you can wear long pants and tuck your shirt tail in...I've seen guys (people that are not poor) come to church in tank tops, shorts, and sandals....to me, that is being disrespecful to the lord....again, if you do not have enough respect for the lord to wear what you consider your good clothes to be, who or what do you respect so much when you wear them??  Again, it would be real easy to misunderstand what I'm saying here, but its about respect, not "dressing up" to impress others..



I agree. Visitors are another thing though. 
To borrow a line from a comtemporary song, "God's gotta change her heart before He changes her shirt" 

What this world needs
Is not another one hit wonder with an axe to grind
Another two bit politician peddling lies
Another three ring circus society
What this world needs
Is not another sign waving super saint that's better than you
Another ear pleasing candy man afraid of the truth
Another prophet in an Armani suit

CHORUS:
What this world needs is a Savior who will rescue
A Spirit who will lead
A Father who will love them in their time of need
A Savior who will rescue
A Spirit who will lead
A Father who will love
That's what this world needs

What this world needs
Is for us to care more about the inside than the outside
Have we become so blind that we can't see
God's gotta change her heart before He changes her shirt
What this world needs
Is for us to stop hiding behind our relevance
Blending in so well that people can't see the difference
And it's the difference that sets the world free

CHORUS

(Dialogue)

CHORUS

Jesus is our Savior, that's what this world needs
Father's arms around you, that's what this world needs
That's what this world needs


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 7, 2009)

farmasis said:


> I cannot believe the number of Christians who does not think the goal of the church is to reach the lost. No wonder we have lost our direction!
> 
> In my Bible, the early church preached to the lost and many, many were added. They did not sit around and serve themselves.
> 
> ...


 

Farm,

To me what you have quoted is mission work...  The early Church had to do it, because there were hardly any members...  but they also worshipped without the public(lost)...

I think there is a clear distinction...  Why do you go to Church everytime the door is openned? If you are Saved and the pupose of the Church is to witness to the lost...

I have invited many many friends and relatives that I know are lost, a few have came... but none have gotten Saved in the Church...  Some have professed they got Saved at other times...  My daughter is a prime example... Before we adopted her, she was told by the church she attended that she was Saved, and they baptized her... Did she really know she was Saved? Just by asking some simple questions we found out that she was told she was Saved... She never professed Salvation...

Just recently, last month, my daughter was Saved, at the age of 11.... We adopted her when she was 9...

What I am saying is... I am not against the Church ministering to the Lost, far from it...  I personally think that the church services should be geared toward edifing the membership, so that they can become a closer follower of Jesus, and they will be better equiped when they go out in the world and to witness to others, or friends, or relatives...

If we do not edify our membership, then we are doing a disservice to the people that the membership is witnessing to on a daily basis..

DB BB


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## Lowjack (Aug 7, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> I just wanted to recommend the column by this title in the new(Jul.30) edition of the Christian Index by Don Hattaway(Senior Pastor@Tabernacle Baptist Church,Cartersville). He absolutely hits the nail on the head.


I'm Sorry I thought this was about Rev. Jeremiah Wright.


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## farmasis (Aug 7, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Farm,
> 
> To me what you have quoted is mission work... The early Church had to do it, because there were hardly any members... but they also worshipped without the public(lost)...
> 
> ...


 
I agree.

Edification is to prepare you to be a servant and to share the world. So missions id the primary goal.

But, what we have in most churches is a lot of pew sitters who sit around and want things there way and are resistant to change that may result in reaching the lost if it is an inconvienance to them. 

And that is what we see over and over in this thread. People who do not look like us, like songs like us, dress like us, ect. having the nerve to come to church with us!

BB, if you invite folks, they come and they don't get saved.......maybe it is time to try and change the presentation, don't you think??? Not the message, the presentation......


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## formula1 (Aug 7, 2009)

*Re:*

Well, after the reading all the posts, I've come away with the feeling of laughing and crying at the same time. Let me explain:

Laughing because some people say this is the way, some say that is the way, some say another.  For the comtemporary it's legalism. For the traditional, its walking away from our roots and thereby, walking away from Christ.  Both are ridiculous and to be honest, really quite hilarious. 

Crying because the heart of God is offended that His church is divided over such inconsequencial matters. I wonder if the truth is division in the church is what makes many fall away, a sign of the end times as someone said. Maybe both sides of this issue are the problem.

It sounds like the Pharisess and the Sadduces all over again, only this time you are not the natural branch. God did not spare the natural branch and he won't spare you either.

I'm not speaking from a lack of knowledge.  I was raised in traditional church, alienated by the extreme legalism, my way of worship, my way of dress, what I say goes... Never testing the spirit of this error with the Word of God. It will make a young man run away as far as he can... and I did so. Has legalism ever reached any man and has it saved any man?   I say absolutely NO!

Then I was 'enlightened' to the freedom in Christ, the contemporary music, the freedom of expression and dress, the deep love of believers one with the other. But this way equally has a fallacy, in that freedom in Christ, if it's your focus, is equally evil.  You will ignore anything, including deception, for the 'feeling' of freedom in Christ.  Or so you thought! No man ever received Christ by ignoring the Word of God for free expression.

What matters!
1) Is Christ preached? Is Salvation real in hearts?
2) Is the Holy Scripture honored?
3) Is the Holy Spirit moving in hearts?
4) Are Christians discipled and are they encouraged?
5) Do you have love one for the other?
6) Is God praised  and glorified above all?
7) Is the Lord adding to the church?

There is a great division in the church, a side that is the Prodical son coming to Christ through the leadership of churches who don't put God in a little box. Sometimes, the 'outside the boxers' take risks and sometimes they error. Yet many people's lives are turned to Christ as they preach Christ, no matter the methodology.

Then there is the side who are those who are the sons who never left home. They say I have always been with you Lord. Why do you kill the fatted calf and rejoice when these are saved? I never left, yet you never celebrated for me!

Suddenly, its brother against brother! The church is weakened and Satan enters in through jealousy and deceit.  We have fallen into Satan's trap.

Ladies and Gentlemen, love your brothers and sisters in Christ.  Rejoice in the lost sheep! Celebrate the wisdom of the mature in Christ. Desire unity in Christ and Christ alone and the church will be strengthened. Sing hymns, preach the Word, play any instrument, have a big ole band if you like. Worship anyway you desire.  

But whatever you do, do all to the glory of God and not of man, and you will find worship in Spirit and in Truth!  And rejoice that your name is written in Heaven!

May God challenge you and I toward Him by these words!


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## ddd-shooter (Aug 7, 2009)

formula1 said:


> Well, after the reading all the posts, I've come away with the feeling of laughing and crying at the same time. Let me explain:
> 
> Laughing because some people say this is the way, some say that is the way, some say another.  For the comtemporary it's legalism. For the traditional, its walking away from our roots and thereby, walking away from Christ.  Both are ridiculous and to be honest, really quite hilarious.
> 
> ...



Post of the Day for sure!!!!


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## wholenotem (Aug 8, 2009)

farmasis said:


> That is why it is great to have different worship styles. The Bible says to raise Jesus up and he will draw all men to him. It doesn't say how.
> 
> Those 150 year old songs were once cutting edge new stuff, and when they came out somebody probably said "The words to those great old hymns speak to my soul and make me rejoice. Sadly the words to any song written by these young whipper snappers do not move me. "
> 
> ...


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## farmasis (Aug 8, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Post of the Day for sure!!!!


 

X2

Nice post formula.


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## Tim L (Aug 8, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I agree. Visitors are another thing though.
> To borrow a line from a comtemporary song, "God's gotta change her heart before He changes her shirt"
> 
> What this world needs
> ...



True....with visitors, you should just be happy they are there; they wouldn't be held (i.e. appropriate dress) to the same standard as a mature christian.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> BB, if you invite folks, they come and they don't get saved.......maybe it is time to try and change the presentation, don't you think??? Not the message, the presentation......


 
Not really... Just because someone comes to visit means that their heart is ready?  Only God knows this... All we can do is preach the Gospel and let God deal with the lost ones through the preaching...

I can't drag anyone to Christ, I couldn't even drag myself... No matter what the presentation is... If God is not ready to Save someone then it isn't going to happen...

I think there are extremes at which people take "presentations" to Sugar Coat the message... or should I say "water it down"...

I would rather not sacrifice the message, just to appease the goats that come to church to make themselves feel better... To me Church is not about the... It is Extremely rare that I leave Church feeling better about myself...

DB BB


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## leroy (Aug 13, 2009)

> Be willing to change the presentation without compromising the message
> By Jonathan McLain, sr. pastor, Friendship Baptist Church, Sylvania
> Published August 13, 2009
> 
> ...




letter in the index this week


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## farmasis (Aug 13, 2009)

Thank you for posting that, Leroy.



> Listen to me and understand my heart. If I have to paint my face like a clown to see a lost child come to know Jesus Christ as personal Lord and Savior ... I will. If I need to erect a big top in the parking lot of Fred’s dollar store to draw people to a gospel presentation ... I will.


 
What ever it takes! What ever it takes! As long as it does not contradict scripture, use it.

My pastor ended a sermon with the words above (paraphrased) a few weeks back and it moved a youth member so much she wrote a song entitled 'Whatever it takes'. She sung it for the choir this Wednesday, and will sing it Sunday for the church. It was awesome! Brilliantly written and very moving.


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## jkwilson78 (Aug 24, 2009)

I'll admit, I am not a fan of contemporary services and I think that has most to do with my upbringing in a traditional style church.

But I understand the point of view that evolving the style of a church service to attract people in today's time has merit.

But one short little sentence in the article jumped out at me:



> When worship services are designed to attract and amuse people, God ceases to be the focus



This is pretty huge to me.  If God is not the focus and center of everything you are doing whether contemporary or traditional then I feel you are on the wrong path as a church.

Which leads to a question I always ask myself when this debate comes up.

If you took away the fun, the games, the concerts, etc.  What would happen to the church?

Sure, you'll have some people leave because they were only there to be amused and entertained but what if this caused a majority of the membership to leave?   

To me it would show that the "gimmicks" to get people in the seats work but do little to convert them to followers of Christ.

Of course, no church would ever test something like this but it's something I can't help but wonder. 

In a way the contemporary vs traditional arguments are a classic "quantity vs quality" debate.

I think the autohor sums up everything nicely with this:



> The reason some are using amusement to attract people to church services is because of a failure to practice personal evangelism. It is much easier to invite lost people to hear a comedian, listen to a rock concert, or watch a staff mud-wrestling match than it is to share the gospel. Instead of evangelizing the lost in our neighborhoods, schools, workplaces, and markets, unbelievers are being enticed to come see the show at church.



I know this is an area where I am completely and totally deficient.  But it is probably the single most effective way to lead people to church and Christ.


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