# Church Displine?



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 23, 2006)

Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on practicing  Church Displine?

For example: Members of the Church that only attend sparingly, like maybe once every 3 or 4 months...knowing they could come every sunday if they wanted to, but just choose not to come.

Another Example: If someone was to see another member cheating on their spouse.

Do you think the church should get involved?

Just curious of the responses....

DB BB


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## SBG (Feb 23, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on practicing  Church Displine?
> 
> For example: Members of the Church that only attend sparingly, like maybe once every 3 or 4 months...knowing they could come every sunday if they wanted to, but just choose not to come.
> 
> ...



Issue 1 is not a matter for Church discipline; however, it is a matter for counseling and edification. The only time it would require discipline is if the member was a teacher or held some position in the Church.

The second scenario, obviously, is much tougher. The Bible is quite clear on handling these issues that are more serious...and the first step is not discipline.


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## mlmathis123 (Feb 23, 2006)

When you say Church are you refering to just the Pastor of the Deacon Board? 
As far as the cheating example this is how I would approach it. I would have a talk with the Pastor and say something like this. Pastor something has come to my attention and I'm not going into any details, but maybe you should speak with Bro or Sister (whom ever) I feel like there may be some problems in their marriage and that they could use your guidance.
I would not come straight out and call it cheating I believe that even though it may have the appearance of unfaithfulness the people involved need to confess it for themselves and not have me start the ball rolling by me accusing them with out all the evidence being before me. To many wrong conclusions have been made over the years because what the eye may see may not always be correct.

As for the attendance I feel like that is between them and the Lord. I would suggest that either the Pastor or one of the Deacons call them to see about them and offer them encouragement to attend. It can do more harm than good to have the governing body of the Church question your attendance thats more than likely to run them off futher than rather just give them a friendly call and tell them you love them and miss them and that you hope to see them in Church soon.


Thats just my thoughts  

God Bless
Mike


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## Derek (Feb 23, 2006)

I agree with Mike!


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## cowboyron (Feb 23, 2006)

#1   Forsake not assembly nor sin wilfully Heb.10:25-26

#2 Well we all know where that goes (adultry )

The church is to remain spotless if a church lets members do traditions of men then they are conforming to wordly ways. All matters that spot the chuch should be dealt with. Our elders and members will talk with anyone who has sinned wilfully and try to get them to repent. If they continue and do not repent after all has been done that can be done we have no choice but ti withdrawl from these people. All you can do after that is pray for them.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 23, 2006)

I will give ya'll a real life example from a church that I used to be a member at:

A man and a woman started dating, both had families from previous marriages, the man was a Sunday school teacher. Well, ends up the woman comes up pregnant. The man after being confronted, went in front of the church and confessed to what happened, and asks for the Church to forgive him. They were married not long after that.

Another example from the same church:
Members on the role of the Church that were not attending church. Been visited many, many times. Sent several letters asking them to come back to church. Eventually(after many months), the Church voted to remove them from the membership and they were sent a letter detailing them why we had removed them from the role and reinforced to them that we want them to come back to church.

This is examples of some church displine that I can think of....

Just wanted to clarify what I meant by church displine....

DB BB


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## Flash (Feb 23, 2006)

I remember one time Mt Man was a member but not attending, hadn't been for years. Well he got wind that the church was going to spend a little money. So he showed up, sat about three rows from the front. The business meeting starts, Deacon Branch makes a motion that they buy a chandelier, Deacon Dutchman seconds. Pastor says "Is there any discussion"

 Old Mt Man raises his hand and after being recognized he begins his speech: "First of all when we go to order it we don't have anyone here that knows how to spell it,  second if we should get it no one is able to play it. And finally why are we wasting money on a chandelier when what we really need is some lights.  

Joking aside, church disipline is biblical and if we had more of it (in the right manner) we would be better off.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 23, 2006)

My church does not practice 'discipline' as apparently it is meant.  If we kicked out the sinners the pews (and the altar) would be empty.  
I do remember a story of a guy I know who was VERY active in his church.  International missionary, the works.... well, he got divorced.  According to him, the church 'turned it's back on him'.  End result?  Let's just say he took a path that no church would agree with.  I don't blame him or his old church, but I sure would have expected more from a church.


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## SBG (Feb 23, 2006)

cowboyron said:
			
		

> #1   Forsake not assembly nor sin wilfully Heb.10:25-26
> 
> #2 Well we all know where that goes (adultry )
> 
> The church is to remain spotless if a church lets members do traditions of men then they are conforming to wordly ways. All matters that spot the chuch should be dealt with. Our elders and members will talk with anyone who has sinned wilfully and try to get them to repent. If they continue and do not repent after all has been done that can be done we have no choice but ti withdrawl from these people. All you can do after that is pray for them.



Where do you draw the line? When they miss all services? What if they come every Sunday morning, but never on Sunday or Wednesday night? What if they only come to the worship service and skip Sunday School?

It is impossible for the Church to remain spotless...although that shold be the desire. We all sin and come short of the Lord's example. Church discipline is intended to handle blatant and unconfessed sin, which poor attendance is not. IMHO



> Pastor something has come to my attention and I'm not going into any details, but maybe you should speak with Bro or Sister (whom ever) I feel like there may be some problems in their marriage and that they could use your guidance



I agree that this at first sounds like the appropriate course of action, but is it in compliance with the scriptural example?

Matthew 18: 15-17


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## ilikembig (Feb 23, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> I will give ya'll a real life example from a church that I used to be a member at:
> 
> A man and a woman started dating, both had families from previous marriages, the man was a Sunday school teacher. Well, ends up the woman comes up pregnant. The man after being confronted, went in front of the church and confessed to what happened, and asks for the Church to forgive him. They were married not long after that.
> 
> ...






<the Church voted to remove them from the membership and they were sent a letter detailing them why we had removed them from the role and reinforced to them that we want them to come back to church.> That is kind of strange. I have never heard of that before. Why would the church want to remove anyone from being on the role? What harm was that causing them? Sounds more political than Godly.

I have story...
A church I attended a few years back. We has the most awesome preacher, he was very good at teaching. He and a Sunday school teacher had lunch both married with children (he was actually expecting his third) and short of the long one thing lead to another. But not TOO far.  Anyway, the Spirit guided him to bring this forth to the congregation and when he did the congregation voted him out of the church. 

I believe the church is there for guidance, help, teaching, etc. Not to judge


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## dominantpredator (Feb 23, 2006)

Who in their right mind would sit back and try to discipline someone else for falling short? Judge not. Right? If you are without sin, then go ahead and cast that stone.


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## redwards (Feb 23, 2006)

*What was Paul's Instruction?*

1 Corinthians 5:1-13

*Immoral Church Members*
1 It is widely reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and the kind of sexual immorality that is not even condoned among the Gentiles —a man is living with his father's wife. 
2 And you are inflated with pride, instead of filled with grief so that he who has committed this act might be removed from among you. 
3 For though absent in body but present in spirit, I have already decided about him who has done this thing as though I were present. 
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, along with my spirit and with the power of our Lord Jesus, 
5 turn that one over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the Day of the Lord. 
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast permeates the whole batch of dough? 
7 Clean out the old yeast so that you may be a new batch, since you are unleavened. For Christ our Passover has been sacrificed. 
8 Therefore, let us observe the feast, not with old yeast, or with the yeast of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 

*Church Discipline*
9 I wrote to you in a letter not to associate with sexually immoral people — 
10 by no means referring to this world's immoral people, or to the greedy and swindlers, or to idolaters; otherwise you would have to leave the world. 
11 But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who bears the name of brother who is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a reviler, a drunkard or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person. 
12 For what is it to me to judge outsiders? Do you not judge those who are inside? 
13 But God judges outsiders. Put away the evil person from among yourselves.


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## 7401R (Feb 23, 2006)

A church needs to have discipline.......but you have to be careful "shooting the wounded", it can have dire consequences in some instances.

   7


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## SBG (Feb 23, 2006)

> =ilikembig
> I have story...
> A church I attended a few years back. We has the most awesome preacher, he was very good at teaching. He and a Sunday school teacher had lunch both married with children (he was actually expecting his third) and short of the long one thing lead to another. But not TOO far.  Anyway, the Spirit guided him to bring this forth to the congregation and when he did the congregation voted him out of the church.
> 
> I believe the church is there for guidance, help, teaching, etc. Not to judge



Praise God that there are still some Churches that won't compromise. The Pastor of the Church was right to confess his sin, but then he should have resigned. His actions disqualified him to pastor.


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## leroy (Feb 23, 2006)

dominantpredator said:
			
		

> Who in their right mind would sit back and try to discipline someone else for falling short? Judge not. Right? If you are without sin, then go ahead and cast that stone.



Exactly, go out visit them try and find out why they are not attending but to kick them out per say I think is going to far. I have heard of Churches that if you missed you had to get up and give account of why.


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## leroy (Feb 23, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> My church does not practice 'discipline' as apparently it is meant.  If we kicked out the sinners the pews (and the altar) would be empty.
> .



 Well put


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## reylamb (Feb 23, 2006)

We are given a Biblical example of discipline within the church, if we fail to adhere to that admonishment we are letting our guard down.  It is Biblical.

The Judge not verse in Scripture is probably the most often misused and misunderstood verse in Scripture.....


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 23, 2006)

7401R said:
			
		

> .....you have to be careful "shooting the wounded", it can have dire consequences in some instances.


Exactly what I related in my story and have seen play out in real life, real time.  The consequences are FAR reaching.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 23, 2006)

*Church Discipline*

With the mention of Church Discipline, my thoughts turn to the parable of  the Wheat and the Tares. 

 In this instance the owner of a field planted it to wheat.  When the wheat came up it, tares were found to be growing among the wheat.  A servant asked the owner of the field if he would like for him to go and gather up the tares.  The master responded, "nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.  Let them grow together until the harvest"  Matthew 13:28-30

Tares, which is a worthless weed resembling wheat, was left growing amongst the wheat for fear of rooting up the valuable wheat.  

This Parable seems clearly to teach that Church Discipline is a very delicate process which could bear serious and unintended consequence.

This Parable should always be kept in mind when addressing this question.  Obviously there are instances so grevious as to necessitate withdrawal of Church Fellowship from a wayward member.  Individuals who openly live in sin after having been sufficiently warned, obviously must be dealt with severely.

There is always the possibility that the luke warm Christian or even the hypocrite, if left in the Church, might see the error of their way and join the ranks of the most faithful.


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## hpurvis (Feb 24, 2006)

I know of very few churches that practice discipline as out lined in the Bible. When I was pastoring it was almost impossible to get anyone to agree to church discipline. There were several instances I had where people in leadership roles would do things outside the church that called for discipline and often times I would counsel them and they would change and then there were a few that chose to leave. I believe we need to reach down and pick up a stumbling brother if at all possible. If there is nothing that you can do with them then follow the biblical principle of discipling and the church will be much stronger.
I have had to ask deacons to resign, Sunday School teachers to resign and youth leaders to resign and each time it made the body stronger.

This is a subject that calls for much prayer and when you be still and know that he is God he will give you direction. Just don't run ahead of God and you will be fine.


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## Spotlite (Feb 24, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> With the mention of Church Discipline, my thoughts turn to the parable of  the Wheat and the Tares.
> 
> In this instance the owner of a field planted it to wheat.  When the wheat came up it, tares were found to be growing among the wheat.  A servant asked the owner of the field if he would like for him to go and gather up the tares.  The master responded, "nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.  Let them grow together until the harvest"  Matthew 13:28-30
> 
> ...




My thoughts exactly, you need discipline, but the Lord adds to the Church, therefore the Lord needs to take away from the Church. With those exceptions you mentioned where it becomes necesary, the Lord will make a way for the Church to handle this when it arises. He wont let his Church down.


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## Branchminnow (Feb 24, 2006)

Flash said:
			
		

> I remember one time Mt Man was a member but not attending, hadn't been for years. Well he got wind that the church was going to spend a little money. So he showed up, sat about three rows from the front. The business meeting starts, Deacon Branch makes a motion that they buy a chandelier, Deacon Dutchman seconds. Pastor says "Is there any discussion"
> 
> Old Mt Man raises his hand and after being recognized he begins his speech: "First of all when we go to order it we don't have anyone here that knows how to spell it,  second if we should get it no one is able to play it. And finally why are we wasting money on a chandelier when what we really need is some lights.
> 
> Joking aside, church disipline is biblical and if we had more of it (in the right manner) we would be better off.


Ole Dale he makes sure we are on the right track dont he?


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 24, 2006)

ilikembig said:
			
		

> <the Church voted to remove them from the membership and they were sent a letter detailing them why we had removed them from the role and reinforced to them that we want them to come back to church.> That is kind of strange. I have never heard of that before. Why would the church want to remove anyone from being on the role? What harm was that causing them? Sounds more political than Godly.
> 
> I have story...
> A church I attended a few years back. We has the most awesome preacher, he was very good at teaching. He and a Sunday school teacher had lunch both married with children (he was actually expecting his third) and short of the long one thing lead to another. But not TOO far.  Anyway, the Spirit guided him to bring this forth to the congregation and when he did the congregation voted him out of the church.
> ...



The person that was voted out, had been given several opportunities to come back to church. Several visits, by not only the paster but the decons and many other members....The church wouldn't just vote someone out without having exhausted every means to try and bring them back to church...

DB BB


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## leroy (Feb 24, 2006)

mlmathis123 said:
			
		

> As for the attendance I feel like that is between them and the Lord. I would suggest that either the Pastor or one of the Deacons call them to see about them and offer them encouragement to attend. It can do more harm than good to have the governing body of the Church question your attendance thats more than likely to run them off futher than rather just give them a friendly call and tell them you love them and miss them and that you hope to see them in Church soon.
> 
> 
> Thats just my thoughts
> ...



well said  I believe there will be some in Heaven that have not ben to Church and some down below that were there every time the doors opened. I am there every service unless I'm sick or out of town or working. I think this practice would do more bad than good for the Church.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 24, 2006)

*Prayer, Prayer & still more*

_Thanks guys, for these..._



			
				hpurvis said:
			
		

> I believe we need to reach down and pick up a stumbling brother if at all possible. If there is nothing that you can do with them then follow the biblical principle of discipling and the church will be much stronger.
> I have had to ask deacons to resign, Sunday School teachers to resign and youth leaders to resign and each time it made the body stronger.
> 
> This is a subject that calls for much prayer and when you be still and know that he is God he will give you direction. Just don't run ahead of God and you will be fine.





			
				Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> With the mention of Church Discipline, my thoughts turn to the parable of  the Wheat and the Tares.
> 
> In this instance the owner of a field planted it to wheat.  When the wheat came up it, tares were found to be growing among the wheat.  A servant asked the owner of the field if he would like for him to go and gather up the tares.  The master responded, "nay, lest while ye gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them.  Let them grow together until the harvest"  Matthew 13:28-30
> 
> ...



2 excellent points.  It must be the most painful part of a pastor's responsibility to make the call & ask someone to leave.  Humble, servant's heart-felt prayer goes into these decisions.  God help the assemblies who do not hear from the Lord on these matters.

And the rest of us, pray for your Pastor and those in leadership daily.


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## Flash (Feb 24, 2006)

Another thing to consider, someone who is removed from the membership roll is still allowed to attend services.


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2006)

Right after I got married we quit going to Church regular this went on for 5-6 yrs we went just maby once every couple months. The Lord dealt with our hearts on this and we got back in Church rededicated our lives and have been there for the past 9 yrs I am now a Deacon and love the Lord with all my heart. If someone had came to us during that lull and said we're removing you from our membership I believe it would have drove us further away from Church and the Lord. I could see if it were a Deacon or teacher or other leader of the Church but then I think it would be sufficient to relieve them of their duties in their position but not to withdraw their membership.


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## cowboyron (Feb 25, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Where do you draw the line? When they miss all services? What if they come every Sunday morning, but never on Sunday or Wednesday night? What if they only come to the worship service and skip Sunday School?
> 
> It is impossible for the Church to remain spotless...although that shold be the desire. We all sin and come short of the Lord's example. Church discipline is intended to handle blatant and unconfessed sin, which poor attendance is not. IMHO
> 
> ...


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## cowboyron (Feb 25, 2006)

Corrective Discipline, Chastizing or Penalizing in its Nature:

1.  Its importance.

     (1) The Lord wants a pure Church (Eph. 5:25-27; 2 cor. 
             11:2-3

     (2) To harbor sin, disorder, rebellion, wickedness in the 
            Church brings the frowns and displeasure of the 
            Lord on those guilty of doing so. A little leaven 
            leaveneth the whole lump. (1 Cor. 5:6).

     (3)  corrective disipline therefore has a two-fold 
            purpose:
            (a) To save the Church (1 Cor. 5:5).
            (b)  to save the guilty party (1 Cor. 5:5).

  2.  Upon whom to be exercised:

       (1)  Those walk disorderly (2 Thess. 3:6). One who
               persits in sin, rebels against the teaching
               (1 Cor. 5:11-13).
        (2)  A busybody, troublemaker, one who will not
               tend to his own business (2 Thess. 2:11-15).
        (3)  Those who cause division ( Rom. 16:17 
                2 Jno 9-10; Titus 3:10-11).

3.  The scriptural course to pursue (Matt. 18:15-18).

         (1) Pray for them (1 Jno. 5:16).
         (2) Try to convert them (Jas. 5:19-20.
         (3)  Restore them if possible (Gal. 6:1).
         (4)  Admonish them (1 Thess. 5:14).
         (5)  As a last resort, if they will not repent, withdraw
                 from them (2 Thess. 3:6; 1 Cor 5:4-5-13).
         (6)  In which case it is the duty of the Church as a
                 whole to support such action (1 Cor. 5:9-13;
                 2 Jno 10:11; Matt. 18:17).


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## leroy (Feb 25, 2006)

Who has actually had this happen in their Church, to withdraw someones membership for poor attendance, for adultry? where does it stop sin is sin there is no small or big sin? Someone said they could still come to Church just not as a member. What does this prove they are still a part of your Church so what does pulling their membership accomplish? I'm against the whole deal but if your going to do it looks to me you would have to ban them from your Church.


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## cowboyron (Feb 25, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> Who has actually had this happen in their Church, to withdraw someones membership for poor attendance, for adultry? where does it stop sin is sin there is no small or big sin? Someone said they could still come to Church just not as a member. What does this prove they are still a part of your Church so what does pulling their membership accomplish? I'm against the whole deal but if your going to do it looks to me you would have to ban them from your Church.[/QUOTE
> 
> 2 Thess. 3:6    But we command you, brethern, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he* recieved from us.
> 
> That should sum it up.


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## SBG (Feb 25, 2006)

cowboyron said:
			
		

> SBG said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## brofoster (Feb 27, 2006)

Double Barrel,

     Man you are something else.  I would hate to bet cuttin up while were around.  On a serious note though both issues are a matter of church discipline.  First of all forsaking the assembly is a SIN.  I could see if you were or your job would not allow you to attend a service that day.  If you have a job that keeps you tied up all Sunday, look for a new one.  Forsaking the assembly is a serious matter.  Hebrew 10 tells us "not to forsake the assembly as is the manner of some but to exort yourselves so much the more as you see the day approaching."  The edification, prayer, singing, and Lord's supper which we are commanded to do "together" can not be done while we willingly sit at home.  Secondly, when we see a brother in sin we have a duty to bring that brother to repentence "lest we fall into the same temptation" Paul speaks of.  If a brother sins willingly and refuses to repent we are to cast him out so that he feels the shame of disfellowship and hopefully comes back repenting.  This is what Paul is talking about when he speaks of turning a brother over to Satan for destruction of the body that the soul may be saved. 

Bottom line a little leaven, leavens the whole loaf.  Get straight (if you can prove they are wrong) or get em out.

Brofoster


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## Flash (Feb 27, 2006)

Well said Brofoster


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## leroy (Feb 28, 2006)

brofoster said:
			
		

> Double Barrel,
> 
> Man you are something else.  I would hate to bet cuttin up while were around.  On a serious note though both issues are a matter of church discipline.  First of all forsaking the assembly is a SIN.  I could see if you were or your job would not allow you to attend a service that day.  If you have a job that keeps you tied up all Sunday, look for a new one.  Forsaking the assembly is a serious matter.  Hebrew 10 tells us "not to forsake the assembly as is the manner of some but to exort yourselves so much the more as you see the day approaching."  The edification, prayer, singing, and Lord's supper which we are commanded to do "together" can not be done while we willingly sit at home.  Secondly, when we see a brother in sin we have a duty to bring that brother to repentence "lest we fall into the same temptation" Paul speaks of.  If a brother sins willingly and refuses to repent we are to cast him out so that he feels the shame of disfellowship and hopefully comes back repenting.  This is what Paul is talking about when he speaks of turning a brother over to Satan for destruction of the body that the soul may be saved.
> 
> ...




I think we are encouraged by Jesus to sing, worship, etc. together not commanded I don't go to Church because i have to I go because I want to. If you are right with the Lord you will want to do these things. I don't think we can force someone to repent no more than we can force someone to be saved. That person will repent when God deals wtih his heart we can encourage him and try to help but we cannot force it. 
   Who decides in your Church when someone has missed enough services to be dealt with. Does the Church then vote as a whole on this member?


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## Spotlite (Feb 28, 2006)

brofoster said:
			
		

> Double Barrel,
> 
> Man you are something else.  I would hate to bet cuttin up while were around.  On a serious note though both issues are a matter of church discipline.  First of all forsaking the assembly is a SIN.  I could see if you were or your job would not allow you to attend a service that day.  If you have a job that keeps you tied up all Sunday, look for a new one.  Forsaking the assembly is a serious matter.  Hebrew 10 tells us "not to forsake the assembly as is the manner of some but to exort yourselves so much the more as you see the day approaching."  The edification, prayer, singing, and Lord's supper which we are commanded to do "together" can not be done while we willingly sit at home.  Secondly, when we see a brother in sin we have a duty to bring that brother to repentence "lest we fall into the same temptation" Paul speaks of.  If a brother sins willingly and refuses to repent we are to cast him out so that he feels the shame of disfellowship and hopefully comes back repenting.  This is what Paul is talking about when he speaks of turning a brother over to Satan for destruction of the body that the soul may be saved.
> 
> ...




Good post foster, most of it I agree with. Everything you said is Biblical, but I would stay away from disfellowship in a sense though. I know it is scripture and if used correctly works the way the Lord had plans for. But if you love that person and help them, chances of them returning are greater than that if you ask him to leave. On the other side of that token, people that are not willing to change will move on anyway. We have a special camp once a quarter and it is designed to help get people back in church, we invite people who have chose to leave or just flat out not faithful. I would say we gain 1 % back everytime, but if we disfellowshipped with them, we would not get that return. I could see not going to the honky tonks with them and a night out on the town and things such as that, but a complete disfellowship, you might loose a person that could easily be brought back with just a little effort.


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## Spotlite (Feb 28, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> I think we are encouraged by Jesus to sing, worship, etc. together not commanded I don't go to Church because i have to I go because I want to. If you are right with the Lord you will want to do these things. I don't think we can force someone to repent no more than we can force someone to be saved. That person will repent when God deals wtih his heart we can encourage him and try to help but we cannot force it.
> Who decides in your Church when someone has missed enough services to be dealt with. Does the Church then vote as a whole on this member?



As far as church attendance, when he said "forsake not" it is not to encourage us, it was to let us know, you better do it. He is not asking us, he is telling us to do that.

The rest, I would leave between God and that individual unless they are causing trouble in the church.


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## mlmathis123 (Feb 28, 2006)

You know reading through all the posts, a lot of good points have been made concerning attendance and adultery and how discipline should be handled in the Church
both Biblical and non Biblical, but the one thing that I can't seem to shake is this concerning attendance and being taken off the Church roll books as a member. The bible says and im para phrasing this. It is better to have a mill stone hug around your neck and be cast into the sea than to offend one of my little ones. Now even though they may have a bad attendance record God still loves them and I feel that their salvation is not in jeopardy over missed services. The Church did not save them and can not keep them, their salvation is between them and the Lord and the Church that he established in their heart. We all need fellowship and to gather as a group of believers and stand in unity against powers and principalities but in just my opinion if I as a member of the Church were to keep a link established with that person i'm sure that some day they will return. Only God truly knows why they are out and Only he can touch the heart in such a way to help them return to the flock.

Just some thoughts I wanted to share that were on my heart.

God Bless

Mike


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## Derek (Feb 28, 2006)

> We all need fellowship and to gather as a group of believers and stand in unity against powers and principalities



Well Said!!!


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## leroy (Feb 28, 2006)

mlmathis123 said:
			
		

> You know reading through all the posts, a lot of good points have been made concerning attendance and adultery and how discipline should be handled in the Church
> both Biblical and non Biblical, but the one thing that I can't seem to shake is this concerning attendance and being taken off the Church roll books as a member. The bible says and im para phrasing this. It is better to have a mill stone hug around your neck and be cast into the sea than to offend one of my little ones. Now even though they may have a bad attendance record God still loves them and I feel that their salvation is not in jeopardy over missed services. The Church did not save them and can not keep them, their salvation is between them and the Lord and the Church that he established in their heart. We all need fellowship and to gather as a group of believers and stand in unity against powers and principalities but in just my opinion if I as a member of the Church were to keep a link established with that person i'm sure that some day they will return. Only God truly knows why they are out and Only he can touch the heart in such a way to help them return to the flock.
> 
> Just some thoughts I wanted to share that were on my heart.
> ...




Well said.


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## leroy (Feb 28, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> As far as church attendance, when he said "forsake not" it is not to encourage us, it was to let us know, you better do it. He is not asking us, he is telling us to do that.
> 
> The rest, I would leave between God and that individual unless they are causing trouble in the church.




All I'm saying you should want to go to Church because of your love for the Lord not because you think you have to.


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## Flash (Feb 28, 2006)

I told the story (in jest) about Mt Man, but that kind of stuff happens. An issue comes up and folks come out of the wood work to "vote" on ......  The same folks who haven't been there in ......... 

I think it was said on this post, the church does not save (very true) but I'm afraid some hold their church membership as their salvation.            
 So if they lost their membership maybe just maybe they would examine themselves to see if they be in the faith.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 28, 2006)

Very true Flash.


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## leroy (Mar 1, 2006)

Flash said:
			
		

> I told the story (in jest) about Mt Man, but that kind of stuff happens. An issue comes up and folks come out of the wood work to "vote" on ......  The same folks who haven't been there in .........
> 
> I think it was said on this post, the church does not save (very true) but I'm afraid some hold their church membership as their salvation.
> So if they lost their membership maybe just maybe they would examine themselves to see if they be in the faith.




I agree flash and have seen this happen in area Churches. But I still think you will turn people away with this practice. So I would rather have the situation you describe rather than drive someone further from God or be a stumbling block for them.


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## elfiii (Mar 1, 2006)

Well, I guess I don't fit in. I was raised Episcopalian, and our doors are always open to all who desire to worship and share their fellowship, whether it be one Sunday a year or all 52, and regardless of whether you tithe a million dollars or .02.

The measure of a Christian has nothing to do with how many times you attend church, how much you tithe, or the severity of your sin. It has everything to do with what is in your heart, and only God knows what that is for certain. It is the arrogance of mortal man, a grievous sin, to think he knows another man's heart with respect to God, and it is foolhardy for one sinner to attempt to judge and "discipline" another sinner based on what he "thinks" he knows about the other sinner.

Judge me harshly if you will. It does not matter to me. There is only one judgement which concerns me, and it will not happen on this earth.

The purpose of the Church is to welcome all who would come, worship, and exalt the name of God. If its' doors are closed to one, then it is closed to all.


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## Derek (Mar 1, 2006)

> Well, I guess I don't fit in. I was raised Episcopalian, and our doors are always open to all who desire to worship and share their fellowship, whether it be one Sunday a year or all 52, and regardless of whether you tithe a million dollars or .02.
> 
> The measure of a Christian has nothing to do with how many times you attend church, how much you tithe, or the severity of your sin. It has everything to do with what is in your heart, and only God knows what that is for certain. It is the arrogance of mortal man, a grievous sin, to think he knows another man's heart with respect to God, and it is foolhardy for one sinner to attempt to judge and "discipline" another sinner based on what he "thinks" he knows about the other sinner.
> 
> ...



Well said, but IMO if you are not tithing at least 10% to your church you are stealing from God.  That's not asking much since God is the reason you make what you make in the first place.....


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## Flash (Mar 1, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> The measure of a Christian has nothing to do with how many times you attend church, how much you tithe, or the severity of your sin. It has everything to do with what is in your heart, and only God knows what that is for certain.
> 
> Are you saying as long as one claims to be a Christian they can commit any sin for as often as they'd like and there is no problem?  IMO, if our heart is right, we will attend church, tithe and try and stay away from sin
> 
> ...



Closing the door and removing membership are two seperate things.


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## cowboyron (Mar 1, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> Well, I guess I don't fit in. I was raised Episcopalian, and our doors are always open to all who desire to worship and share their fellowship, whether it be one Sunday a year or all 52, and regardless of whether you tithe a million dollars or .02.
> 
> The measure of a Christian has nothing to do with how many times you attend church, how much you tithe, or the severity of your sin. It has everything to do with what is in your heart, and only God knows what that is for certain. It is the arrogance of mortal man, a grievous sin, to think he knows another man's heart with respect to God, and it is foolhardy for one sinner to attempt to judge and "discipline" another sinner based on what he "thinks" he knows about the other sinner.
> 
> ...



 What do ya'll do if one desires to corrupt your Church. There are to many scriptures that tell us what we "MUST" do to be a disciple of Christ. Obedience is necessary... like the old saying goes .....One bad apple can spoil the whole bunch. And we can judge within .... God wants us to to help feed the flock.....For the gates are narrow and few will enter. We must do what we can to keep people from falling away.

Our doors are open as well. We welcome everybody to come worship with us And you will hear the Word and only the Word nothing added, nothing taken away. If someone tries to teach false doctrine it will be dealt with. If somebody wants to gossip it will be dealt with, if someone wants to be a busybody it will be dealt. We must do what we can to keep the Church pure. That is what God wants He tells us to do this through scripture. God wants us to be in Church on Sunday He is a jealous God do not put something else before God.

For if Christ is in us......you better take Him to Church on Sunday because thats where he wants to be. If your Heart is right then you will be doing what has been commanded of you. If your heart is not right then you will do what you want and IMO that won't get you where you think you might be heading. 
Obey the Gosphel or be lost  2 Thess. 1:8
must obey God, not man       Acts. 5:29


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## cowboyron (Mar 1, 2006)

Lets clear the air and look at the definition of FORSAKE.
Forsake-- To abandon; give up; desert

So forsaking doe's not mean to miss a day of Church here and there. We have new Christians that are having a hard time with alot of things. We have to nurture and cater to these people. No we don't just give them the boot like many are thinking. We spend alot of time with these people with the hopes that one day that light will click on. It is only when they forsake the assembly do we withdraw from them. I believe I have said it in another post if they ever wish to repent they are welcomed back with open arms.  But if you do not withdraw from them, then they would have lost nothing.It's like disciplining a young'un if theres no pain involved they just don't get it. We have to try our best to keep these people in the Faith we do not want to loose souls, we want to add souls. Heck I'm still an infant in my Christianity and I have alot to work on myself.


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## cowboyron (Mar 1, 2006)

two more things then I'm done for tonight.

Two lessons we learn from Old Testament Scriptures.
1.  God always rewarded and blessed those who obeyed
      Him.
2.   God condemed and punished those who were 
       disobedient.

*NUFF SAID*


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## leroy (Mar 2, 2006)

Of the ones that do this how many do you have on your roll, just curious.


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## leroy (Mar 2, 2006)

cowboyron said:
			
		

> Lets clear the air and look at the definition of FORSAKE.
> Forsake-- To abandon; give up; desert
> 
> So forsaking doe's not mean to miss a day of Church here and there. We have new Christians that are having a hard time with alot of things. We have to nurture and cater to these people. No we don't just give them the boot like many are thinking. We spend alot of time with these people with the hopes that one day that light will click on. It is only when they forsake the assembly do we withdraw from them. I believe I have said it in another post if they ever wish to repent they are welcomed back with open arms.  But if you do not withdraw from them, then they would have lost nothing.It's like disciplining a young'un if theres no pain involved they just don't get it. We have to try our best to keep these people in the Faith we do not want to loose souls, we want to add souls. Heck I'm still an infant in my Christianity and I have alot to work on myself.




where is that line in the sand that they have to cross. How many services do they have to miss?


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## mlmathis123 (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm speaking only for me when I say this. Lets say that in the coarse of a year I attended 1/2 the services that a total of 21 sunday morning services I missed because I work 6 days a week 12 hours a day (off on sunday) and lets say that I'm faithful in paying my tithes. The Church has a business meeting and in this meeting the discussion is brought up that the Church has several people that are on the roll as members but have been missing a great deal of time from Church and the floor is open for comments on how this should be handled. The action they decide to take after a vote is cast is to remove them from the roll as members. 

(Now I have been in several Churches and never ever seen this happen. But I have seen members that were out and NEVER received a call from the Pastor or any member of the board of Deacons questioning why they have been missing service)

Lets say i'm at home, tired from working 3am to 3pm monday through saturday and the phone rings. It is the Head Deacon. With out a lot of explanation I am told that due to my lack of attendance I have been removed from the roll and told that if I would return to Church they would consider taking me back after a peroid of time if I am faithful in my attendance.
I can just about promise you (unless God seals my mouth shut) That I WILL NEVER attend that Church again. You dont help keep souls saved this way. You drive them from the Church because they NO LONGER feel the love that should be there.



God Bless
Mike


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## leroy (Mar 2, 2006)

mlmathis123 said:
			
		

> I'm speaking only for me when I say this. Lets say that in the coarse of a year I attended 1/2 the services that a total of 21 sunday morning services I missed because I work 6 days a week 12 hours a day (off on sunday) and lets say that I'm faithful in paying my tithes. The Church has a business meeting and in this meeting the discussion is brought up that the Church has several people that are on the roll as members but have been missing a great deal of time from Church and the floor is open for comments on how this should be handled. The action they decide to take after a vote is cast is to remove them from the roll as members.
> 
> (Now I have been in several Churches and never ever seen this happen. But I have seen members that were out and NEVER received a call from the Pastor or any member of the board of Deacons questioning why they have been missing service)
> 
> ...




Again well said.


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## Spotlite (Mar 2, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> All I'm saying you should want to go to Church because of your love for the Lord not because you think you have to.




Sorry it took so long to get back to your post, but I agree, sorry if I misread you on it.


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## leroy (Mar 2, 2006)

Flash said:
			
		

> Closing the door and removing membership are two seperate things.




But removing their membership may close the door!


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## leroy (Mar 2, 2006)

This is my last on on this. I think in extreme circumstances this could be necessary disrupting services, interfering with services, harassment (pulling of ones membership). But lack of attendance, lack of tithing etc. are not reasons. I think these things are between God and that person to work out. I think we can lead them in the right direction but we cannot force them. We had a situation where a woman was harassing people in Church and disrupting services the Pastor tried talking and reasoning with her, the Deacons looked into several options one of which was pulling her membership but decided to totally turn it over to the Lord and earnestly pray for this situation and it was resolved she left our Church and has not been back. I think sometimes we do not totally turn things over to the Lord to work them out we get impatient and try to do things our way and on our timeline and we wind up making a mess of things.


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## redwards (Mar 2, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> ...... I think sometimes we do not totally turn things over to the Lord to work them out we get impatient and try to do things our way and on our timeline and we wind up making a mess of things.


Good statement, leroy. That is the human factor in all of us.


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## Flash (Mar 2, 2006)

mlmathis123 said:
			
		

> I'm speaking only for me when I say this. Lets say that in the coarse of a year I attended 1/2 the services that a total of 21 sunday morning services
> God Bless
> Mike



 No problem from any church that I have been in. If the church hadn't seen you ANY in months would be more like it. But first someone would ask and make sure nothing is wrong, work conflict, sickness etc.....
  I used to believe different but after seeing some verses, hearing it explained I had a change of heart.    We can agree to disagree. 
  Maybe we should discuss baiting


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## mlmathis123 (Mar 2, 2006)

Flash said:
			
		

> Maybe we should discuss baiting


Worms or Crickets


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Mar 2, 2006)

mlmathis123 said:
			
		

> Worms or Crickets


I prefer worms but my pastor prefers crickets. I think he should be churched.


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## Flash (Mar 2, 2006)

Mt Man, Dutchman told me that you fished with an old crank style telephone


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Mar 2, 2006)

....and dynamite.


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## cowboyron (Mar 2, 2006)

leroy said:
			
		

> where is that line in the sand that they have to cross. How many services do they have to miss?



Theres no line it is purdy much when a person goes awol, jumps ship. Like i said before I have only seen it twice and the second is happening now. It is new members but they just don't feel Church is for them. We are doing everything we can to bring them back to the Faith. We keep track of attedance and our congregation is divided into groups. On Sunday evening after services one of our four groups will meet at the home of a group member. We will see who we need to send cards to to let them know we miss them at services. If a person has been out for two or three weeks we as members will call on them to see if everything is alright and let them know we are thinking and care about them. I hope I haven't came across in early post like we just don't care....that is just not the case.The group meetings are really good. It is a way to get to know everybody and there is an elder in each group so you get to know the personality of your elders. Our groups change every so often so you will end up grouping with everybody sooner or later.

 We belong to a very loving and caring Church. My wife belonged to a Church before I obeyed the Gospel. When she was down and out and had some problems there was no phone calls no one came to see her to find out what the problem was....nothing. 
We have found a home with people who really care and are willing to bear others burdens. And adhere to the scriptual teachings of Christ


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## cowboyron (Mar 2, 2006)

About the membership question I'm not sure but only a phone call away. I would venture to say about 200 and this is in a one red light town.....excuse me a one red light county. With probally more Churches than business's


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## elfiii (Mar 3, 2006)

Flash said:
			
		

> Closing the door and removing membership are two seperate things.



Nope, I didn't say calling oneself a Christian frees you to commit any sin you want.

From an administrative point, I understand suspending a membership because of the cost involved in maintaining that member's records. Removing them from membership because they don't attend frequently enough to suit somebody is laughable. I find the idea one sinner or a group of sinners can determine whether another sinner is fit to be a member of the church based on their attendance to be the height of arrogance. I wouldn't fit in in such a church.

Different strokes I guess.


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## elfiii (Mar 3, 2006)

cowboyron said:
			
		

> What do ya'll do if one desires to corrupt your Church.



That's a good question. Right now, the Episcopalian denomination is at a cross roads, and there is going to be a split, because many of us can no longer remain in communion with the side that elected the gay bishop and is pushing other secular agendas such as same sex marriage. In fact the split has already started. Many of the African Communions have already broken Communion with ECUSA, and the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Episcopal Church, is providing very little leadership on this matter. As a result, I don't go to church very much, and give very little.

I don't know what the church as a whole will do. As for me, I will continue to go to church when I feel compelled to do so, worship my God, and repent of my sins. I will not concern myself with the faith or lack thereof of others. I am constantly occupied minding my own business in that regard, and thus have no time to fret about what others are doing.

The church is not my house, our house, or your house. It is God's house, and the last I heard He said all were welcome. I'll turn no one away, especially the worst of sinners, of which I am one.

As I said in a previous post on another thread, I don't worry about any of this too much. My soul is sealed in the Lord through Holy Baptism and I am washed in the Blood of the Lamb. How much I attend church, or you attend church has no effect on that whatsoever.

I think sometimes some people get "wrapped around the axle" about outward appearances.

Yours in Christ


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