# "Nailed to a post"



## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

My wife told me that our 4 year old daughter's 5 year old cousin told her that "They killed Jesus by nailing him to a post, but they don't kill people like that anymore."  

My wife wondered why we try to keep our daughter from watching violent scary movies and then let her go with 'Nanna' to Sunday school.

Oh, well. Guess I'm gonna have to explain crucifixion to her (a little sooner than I had hoped). We've already discussed the plausibility of being raised from the dead and walking on water.  I guess she can take it.


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## dawg2 (Dec 12, 2012)

The main message at Sunday school isn't about crucifixion.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> The main message at Sunday school isn't about crucifixion.




The main message of Fast Times at Ridgemont High wasn't Phoebe Cates coming out of the swimming pool but that's what sticks in my head.  

What I got out of Sunday School was: "Be good or go to He11", which served some purpose I suppose.


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## stringmusic (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> We've already discussed the plausibility of being raised from the dead and walking on water.  I guess she can take it.


What exactly was talked about? You didn't indoctrinate her into your way of thinking did you?



ambush80 said:


> What I got out of Sunday School was: "Be good or go to He11", which served some purpose I suppose.


You got the wrong message. If that's the main message you got from Sunday school, it probably has a lot to do with why you believe the way you do today.


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## dawg2 (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> ...What I got out of Sunday School was: "Be good or go to He11", which served some purpose I suppose.


That isn't the main message either.



ambush80 said:


> The main message of Fast Times at Ridgemont High wasn't Phoebe Cates coming out of the swimming pool but that's what sticks in my head...


What sticks in my head every time I see your posts are treble hooks and multiple fishing poles.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> What exactly was talked about? You didn't indoctrinate her into your way of thinking did you?
> 
> No.  I told her that Nanna thinks that Jesus walked on water. Then I asked her if people can walk on water.  I told her that Nanna thinks that Jesus can fly through the air then asked her if people can fly through the air.  She said "Word Girl can fly but she's pretend".
> 
> ...


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> That isn't the main message either.
> 
> 
> What sticks in my head every time I see your posts are treble hooks and multiple fishing poles.



No fishing to be had in these waters.  I'd have posted  a couple floors up if I was fishing.


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## stringmusic (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> No.  I told her that Nanna thinks that Jesus walked on water. Then I asked her if people can walk on water.  I told her that Nanna thinks that Jesus can fly through the air then asked her if people can fly through the air.  She said "Word Girl can fly but she's pretend".
> 
> She's doing a pretty good job of teaching herself.


Did you ever tell her that the reason Nanna thinks those things is because she believes Jesus was not just a person? Or did you make Jesus out to be just an ol' 2,000 year old carpenter?




> Maybe she'll have a similar experience to mine.


Hopefully not.


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> The main message of Fast Times at Ridgemont High wasn't Phoebe Cates coming out of the swimming pool but that's what sticks in my head.







ambush80 said:


> What I got out of Sunday School was: "Be good or go to He11", which served some purpose I suppose.



Ambush, are you and your wife both non-religious?  The reason I'm asking is that it is a decent show of respect to "Nanna" to let her take your daughter to SS.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Did you ever tell her that the reason Nanna thinks those things is because she believes Jesus was not just a person? Or did you make Jesus out to be just an ol' 2,000 year old carpenter?
> 
> 
> 
> Hopefully not.



She didn't ask.  If she did I would have her ask Nanna.  

We talked about the idea of god and gods, Nanna's god, American and Eastern Indian's gods, Gram and Gramp's god.  She knows what she knows right now.  I give her the info and she filters it through what she knows.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Ambush, are you and your wife both non-religious?  The reason I'm asking is that it is a decent show of respect to "Nanna" to let her take your daughter to SS.



My wife might lean ever so slightly towards deist but whenever we discuss it she can't really come up with a reason for god. 

My daughter likes to hang out with her cousin.  

When we keep the "monsters" in "make believe land" she seems to sleep better.


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> My wife might lean ever so slightly towards deist but whenever we discuss it she can't really come up with a reason for god.



It's that "inner voice" 



ambush80 said:


> My daughter likes to hang out with her cousin.



Sunday school isn't bad, even from a non-religious standpoint, particularly if they are discussing the virtues of charity.  I don't think I would present the crucifixion to a 4-year old.  I didn't with my son (now 12), and won't with my daughter (now 3).

Interesting thing about my boy, though, he is a "zealot."  It's the family joke that he rebels against me by being good.



ambush80 said:


> When we keep the "monsters" in "make believe land" she seems to sleep better.



Minus the religious implications of your statement....that makes sense.  My boy has never had a nightmare, and never been scared of the dark....coincidentally, I never let him watch scary movies when he was young, and I never talked to him about demons.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> It's that "inner voice"



She's sentimental.





JB0704 said:


> Sunday school isn't bad, even from a non-religious standpoint, particularly if they are discussing the virtues of charity.  I don't think I would present the crucifixion to a 4-year old.  I didn't with my son (now 12), and won't with my daughter (now 3).
> 
> Interesting thing about my boy, though, he is a "zealot."  It's the family joke that he rebels against me by being good.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I'm not really sure who gave the cousin that info but she said she heard it in SS.


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## Four (Dec 12, 2012)

I always thought human sacrifice was one of the more distasteful parts of Christianity.

Hard to sensor things for children, good luck!


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## centerpin fan (Dec 12, 2012)

Four said:


> I always thought human sacrifice was one of the more distasteful parts of Christianity.



It wasn't a human sacrifice.  It was a rescue mission.




Four said:


> Hard to sensor things for children, good luck!



Yep.  Skip Sunday School and just go straight to this:

http://store.theonion.com/p-5083-traumatize-your-children.aspx


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## Four (Dec 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It wasn't a human sacrifice.  It was a rescue mission.



Yes... and reading a rabbits entrails is not animal sacrifice, its fortune telling!


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## JFS (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> The main message of Fast Times at Ridgemont High wasn't Phoebe Cates coming out of the swimming pool but that's what sticks in my head.


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It wasn't a human sacrifice.  It was a rescue mission.



What age did you start talking about it with your young'uns (if you any)?



centerpin fan said:


> Yep.  Skip Sunday School and just go straight to this:
> 
> http://store.theonion.com/p-5083-traumatize-your-children.aspx



Love "TheOnion.com."  Mandatory daily reading for me.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

Four said:


> I always thought human sacrifice was one of the more distasteful parts of Christianity.
> 
> Hard to sensor things for children, good luck!



She'll eventually learn about virgins being thrown into volcanoes and cenotes.    One day she may hear a story about a man who heard voices that told him to tie up his son, put him on an altar and disembowel him.   She can make up her own mind about those things already, I'm sure.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> What age did you start talking about it with your young'uns (if you any)?
> 
> 
> 
> Love "TheOnion.com."  Mandatory daily reading for me.



Good question.  I would have preferred 'crucifixion talk' to wait til 10 or 12; whenever might be appropriate age to let her watch Rambo or Walking dead.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> What age did you start talking about it with your young'uns (if you any)?



I don't have any.  The judge ordered me to be sterilized.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> The main message of Fast Times at Ridgemont High wasn't Phoebe Cates coming out of the swimming pool but that's what sticks in my head.


Us carpenters got way more testosterone than most who frequent here so they may  not remember, but I do


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## centerpin fan (Dec 12, 2012)

Four said:


> Yes... and reading a rabbits entrails is not animal sacrifice ...



... and it's not Christianity, either.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

Similarly, but perhaps for a separate thread:

I was watching a show about the Hiroshima nuclear bomb.  She saw an animated recreation of the bomb being deployed and asked what it was.  I told her it was a bomb.  She asked what is it for.  I said "killing people or blowing up things".  She didn't ask anymore about it.  What kind of world is this?


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## Four (Dec 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> ... and it's not Christianity, either.



just sayin' call a spade a spade.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 12, 2012)

Four said:


> I always thought human sacrifice was one of the more distasteful parts of Christianity.
> 
> Hard to sensor things for children, good luck!


I got to admit, all the focus on blood, for an outsider to be introduced to this, I should not be surprised at their resistence


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Us carpenters got way more testosterone than most who frequent here so they may  not remember, but I do



I don't think we have the lock on testosterone.  I've got plenty of computer geek friends who seem to have it coming out of their pores.  We just use it for brutish purposes more often.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I got to admit, all the focus on blood, for an outsider to be introduced to this, I should not be surprised at their resistence



It IS weird.....


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## centerpin fan (Dec 12, 2012)

Four said:


> just sayin' call a spade a spade.



Your definition of "spade" is off.


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't have any.  The judge ordered me to be sterilized.


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Good question.  I would have preferred 'crucifixion talk' to wait til 10 or 12; whenever might be appropriate age to let her watch Rambo or Walking dead.



My kid hear about it in church, I think around the age of 7-8.  I didn't push anything on him, I didn't want him to have a forced conversion.  He asked to be baptised a while later.


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## stringmusic (Dec 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't have any.  The judge ordered me to be sterilized.



Musta been an "election" judge. Found out you was in tha Free Will Society.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> My kid hear about it in church, I think around the age of 7-8.  I didn't push anything on him, I didn't want him to have a forced conversion.  He asked to be baptised a while later.



Reckon if y'all were in some kind of Druidic church and he saw people, maybe kids; his friends and peers, getting 'ritualized' and he saw how people celebrated after the ritual and he knew that you had been 'ritualized' he might want to get 'ritualized' as well?


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Reckon if y'all were in some kind of Druidic church and he saw people, maybe kids; his friends and peers, getting 'ritualized' and he saw how people celebrated after the ritual and he knew that you had been 'ritualized' he might want to get 'ritualized' as well?



Maybe so.  He didn't see many baptisms, nor did we celebrate it or talk about it much.  I took him to church from time to time, answered any questions he had, and he did the rest.

You would kind-of have to know him to understand.  I am the least religious person in my family, and he is the most.  I never really understood it.  I have mentioned this before, but the kid loves reading the Bible.....I have never made him do it, nor asked him to do it, and I have never rewarded him or acted like it was cool that he did it.  I have had to make him stop in the past so he would find other books to read.

If I had raised him with Hindu influence, that might have appealed to him as much, I dunno.  I think the predes folks on here would just say he got elected.  Either way, it's very confusing to me.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Maybe so.  He didn't see many baptisms, nor did we celebrate it or talk about it much.  I took him to church from time to time, answered any questions he had, and he did the rest.
> 
> You would kind-of have to know him to understand.  I am the least religious person in my family, and he is the most.  I never really understood it.  I have mentioned this before, but the kid loves reading the Bible.....I have never made him do it, nor asked him to do it, and I have never rewarded him or acted like it was cool that he did it.  I have had to make him stop in the past so he would find other books to read.
> 
> If I had raised him with Hindu influence, that might have appealed to him as much, I dunno.  I think the predes folks on here would just say he got elected.  Either way, it's very confusing to me.



My 11 year old nephew is into Pokemon.  I suppose your son could be into worse things...


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## JB0704 (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> My 11 year old nephew is into Pokemon.  I suppose your son could be into worse things...





My kid is also crazy into sports.  Year 'round, three sports.  He was on 3 different baseball teams this year....and one of them was at the same time as football.  He's not "all religion."  It just appeals to him more than most.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Good question.  I would have preferred 'crucifixion talk' to wait til 10 or 12; whenever might be appropriate age to let her watch Rambo or Walking dead.



My grandson will soon be 10 and I feel certain he's never been taught the details of the crucifixion in SS.  He learns about being happy, and responsible, and kind, and respectful.  And he's made dozens of cute little things that I generally hang from my rearview mirror on the truck.

A few centuries ago, missionaries were forced to leave an area of what is now S. Korea because the people were completely uncomfortable with the details of the crucifixion story.


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> My grandson will soon be 10 and I feel certain he's never been taught the details of the crucifixion in SS.  He learns about being happy, and responsible, and kind, and respectful.  And he's made dozens of cute little things that I generally hang from my rearview mirror on the truck.
> 
> A few centuries ago, missionaries were forced to leave an area of what is now S. Korea because the people were completely uncomfortable with the details of the crucifixion story.



Has he ever seen a crucifix?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Has he ever seen a crucifix?



I saw pictures of Jesus on the cross and knew at an early age the he died for our sins, but I never associated it with blood and pain. It was more of a suffering. I didn't even associate all those verses & songs about blood with pain & suffering. It's like since I wasn't taught that it was cruel until later, it took longer to set in.
It didn't really set in until I read this physician's analysis of his death. 
http://www.bebaptized.org/Crucifixion.htm

I wonder how old you should be before you read that?


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## ambush80 (Dec 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I saw pictures of Jesus on the cross and knew at an early age the he died for our sins, but I never associated it with blood and pain. It was more of a suffering. I didn't even associate all those verses & songs about blood with pain & suffering. It's like since I wasn't taught that it was cruel until later, it took longer to set in.
> It didn't really set in until I read this physician's analysis of his death.
> http://www.bebaptized.org/Crucifixion.htm
> 
> I wonder how old you should be before you read that?




I suppose old enough to be able to read any other autopsy caused by violent death. 

For what it's worth,  I can think of worse ways to die than Jesus' crucifixion.


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## atlashunter (Dec 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> It wasn't a human sacrifice.  It was a rescue mission.



A rescue mission requiring a human sacrifice. Some god...


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## atlashunter (Dec 12, 2012)

I'd tell "nanna" to take a hike. Seriously.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Has he ever seen a crucifix?



I'm not sure what sort of exposure he might have had to a cross.  I have a cross on a chain, and he's seen it, but I don't remember any conversation about it.


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## JB0704 (Dec 13, 2012)

Seeing a cross, and understanding the implications are two very different things.  I always knew what an electric chair was, but never really considered how violent it was much older.


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## stringmusic (Dec 13, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> A rescue mission requiring a human sacrifice. Some god...


You must have missed this.


centerpin fan said:


> It wasn't a human sacrifice.







atlashunter said:


> I'd tell "nanna" to take a hike. Seriously.



I would imagine "Nanna" is either his mother, or his wife's mother, it's probably not real easy just to tell her to "take a hike".


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## ambush80 (Dec 13, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'd tell "nanna" to take a hike. Seriously.





stringmusic said:


> You must have missed this.
> 
> I would imagine "Nanna" is either his mother, or his wife's mother, it's probably not real easy just to tell her to "take a hike".



Nanna is my brother in law's mother in law.  It would be fairly easy to keep my daughter from her but Nanna keeps Maya's cousin and favorite playmate on occasion.  It was last week when Maya mentioned the 'nailed to to a post thing'.  If she brings it up again we will have that talk about crucifixion.

I'm not worried about Maya's exposure to Christianity at Sunday School. It seems more of a social outlet at this point.  Even when the proselytizing starts, I'm sure we will be mindful to expose her to differing viewpoints.  Besides, she gets to hang out with Jews and Native American kids all the time (our neighbors).   

Nanna's a nice, kind old lady.  I wouldn't care if she were Wiccan. 



Ronnie T said:


> I'm not sure what sort of exposure he might have had to a cross.  I have a cross on a chain, and he's seen it, but I don't remember any conversation about it.



I meant a crucifix with Jesus on it.


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## vowell462 (Dec 13, 2012)

On a different note, I just wanted to say I read this whole thread and I dont believe Ive seen so many funny comments in this forumn. Thanks for the laugh fellas, im back to work now.


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## bigreddwon (Dec 13, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I'd tell "nanna" to take a hike. Seriously.



Agreed.. Teaching my child religious ideals is crossing a very clear 'parental line'.. I would take it just as personal if some distant relative started teaching my 5 yo about sex without my permission. 

Hard to be mad if her 5 yo cousin told her tho, kids do that. An adult teaching this stuff without a parents consent would get her on the 'never visiting again' list..


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## mtnwoman (Dec 13, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> What exactly was talked about? You didn't indoctrinate her into your way of thinking did you?*Poor baby, she's going from 'brainwashing' to 'brainwashing'.*
> 
> 
> You got the wrong message. If that's the main message you got from Sunday school, it probably has a lot to do with why you believe the way you do today.



Well at least he didn't have to listen to the fairy tales about David and Goliath, Noah's Ark, the birth of Christ, and fortheloveof pete the creation story.  And when he forgot to ask God for help with his unbelief is why he has no belief in God.


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## atlashunter (Dec 13, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You must have missed this.



Didn't miss it. It simply isn't true.




stringmusic said:


> I would imagine "Nanna" is either his mother, or his wife's mother, it's probably not real easy just to tell her to "take a hike".



I wouldn't have any problem at all telling any woman in my life, including my dear mother, to take a hike when it comes to subjecting my 4 year old child to that nonsense. Children are indoctrinated into religion from an early age because they are easy prey. They haven't yet developed the reasoning skills to defend their minds against it. As it is ambush has to help her sort through it when she comes back home. Nothing at all wrong with that and please don't take it as judging or telling anyone how to raise their kids because I'm not. I just don't see the point in subjecting them to that in the first place when they are that age.


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## schweisshund (Dec 13, 2012)

Children should go to Sunday School, it would be irresponsible to keep it from them. That would be "sheltering". It would also be teaching them to alienate people based on their private religious beliefs. 

It is fine if you do not believe it to be true. That does not make it false.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2012)

schweisshund said:


> Children should go to Sunday School, it would be irresponsible to keep it from them. That would be "sheltering". It would also be teaching them to alienate people based on their private religious beliefs.
> 
> It is fine if you do not believe it to be true. That does not make it false.



Would you be OK with relatives & friends taking your children to Catholic Mass, Mormon, JW, 7th Day Adventist, Oneness, or Quaker religious services to broaden their horizons and choices?


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## atlashunter (Dec 13, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you be OK with relatives & friends taking your children to Catholic Mass, Mormon, JW, 7th Day Adventist, Oneness, or Quaker religious services to broaden their horizons and choices?



Toss some muslim indoctrination in there too. Wouldn't want them to be sheltered now would we?

"It is fine if you do not believe it to be true. That does not make it false."


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## schweisshund (Dec 14, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you be OK with relatives & friends taking your children to Catholic Mass, Mormon, JW, 7th Day Adventist, Oneness, or Quaker religious services to broaden their horizons and choices?



My father _was_ a Baptist Preacher. So, I attended Sunday School, of course. I stopped attending Church, regularly, when I was about 17 or 18 years old. 

His mother (gramma) is an Episcopalian and believes in faith healing. They argued extensively about this for as long as I can remember. The stickler was, my dad (as well as I) are hereditary hearing impaired. He is nearly deaf (medically considered deaf). So, according to gramma, we never possessed enough "faith" to be healed. 

I do not believe in her version/interpretation of Christianity, and often times, I am offended by it ... but here is the thing - it is the way she views the world. It is her interpretation and her understanding of how things work. She could very well be right (although I highly doubt it), but I have enough respect for her, as a person, and as my gramma, to respect her views. But, that comes at a cost. In order for her to gain that respect, she must also respect my views. 

Now, having said that ... my nana (mom's mom) is Irish Roman Catholic all the way, born and raised in Brooklyn, NY. The whole 13 brothers and sisters .... all from Red Hook, Brooklyn. All Roman Catholic. So, yes, I attended mass (with parental consent) with my nana when I was growing up. However, because of the stark contrast in views/perceptions/interpretations of scripture between my father and his mother, us kids (four of us all well into adulthood now) were forbidden to attend services at my gramma's church. 

So ... in a situation where a child is being taken to a church without parental consent or approval, I can see where the OP has a problem. 

At one point in my life (when I stopped going to church) I had felt indoctrinated into my parents' theological interpretation of God. I have my own views now. They are close, but not the same. The OP's child will come to that crossroads, and should be exposed to differing beliefs - as long as it is being done respectfully and with approval.

But to answer your question - by all means, expose your children to different beliefs. It is how people learn. I was exposed to differing beliefs growing up and breezed straight through comparative religion in my Honors Courses in College. They all have one thing in common - blame everything bad that has happened to men ... on women.

Even the Native American Lakotan story of Creation is similar to Genesis.


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## stringmusic (Dec 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Didn't miss it. It simply isn't true.


I knew you seen it, I was just 



> I wouldn't have any problem at all telling any woman in my life, including my dear mother, to take a hike when it comes to subjecting my 4 year old child to that nonsense. Children are indoctrinated into religion from an early age because they are easy prey. They haven't yet developed the reasoning skills to defend their minds against it. As it is ambush has to help her sort through it when she comes back home. Nothing at all wrong with that and please don't take it as judging or telling anyone how to raise their kids because I'm not. I just don't see the point in subjecting them to that in the first place when they are that age.



I see your point, and I agree that I absolutely would not let my little boy be subject to anything I didn't want him to be. I will tell him about Christ, and he will go to SS, but it's not because he is easy prey, it will be because I want him to learn about the virtues of Christianity, at home and in SS.


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## ambush80 (Dec 14, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Didn't miss it. It simply isn't true.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She knows people can't fly or walk on water or rise from the dead.  I'm quite sure of it.  Maybe I'll sit in on her Sunday School class if she goes this weekend.  Sounds to me like it's mostly "play time".


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## atlashunter (Dec 14, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> She knows people can't fly or walk on water or rise from the dead.



Yeah but there was an exception to those rules 2000 years ago donchaknow.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 14, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> She knows people can't fly or walk on water or rise from the dead.  I'm quite sure of it.  Maybe I'll sit in on her Sunday School class if she goes this weekend.  Sounds to me like it's mostly "play time".



No one I know can walk on water or raise from the dead, but the Son of God. But people do fly, don't they?....a feat no one thought was possible 2000 years ago. In time we will have ALL the answers. Sunday School can't be any more ridiculous than teaching the theory of evolution to kids....at least give her  an 'even' chance to discover what she believes....what if you are wrong? You wanna be responsible for that? Let her be open to everything, please!


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> No one I know can walk on water or raise from the dead, but the Son of God. But people do fly, don't they?....a feat no one thought was possible 2000 years ago. In time we will have ALL the answers. Sunday School can't be any more ridiculous than teaching the theory of evolution to kids....at least give her  an 'even' chance to discover what she believes....what if you are wrong? You wanna be responsible for that? Let her be open to everything, please!




As always, I'm speechless.....


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah but there was an exception to those rules 2000 years ago donchaknow.



That's my problem I guess,  I don't-a-know


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## atlashunter (Dec 15, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> As always, I'm speechless.....



Think she would let her 4 year old be taken to a mosque?

I'm not saying young people shouldn't get exposure to various beliefs. I just think it should be when they have developed the reasoning skills to handle it and I don't see any good reason to expose kids that young to religion. If you've ever watched Jesus Camp then you can understand why I say that. Your child is lucky she has you for guidance.


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Think she would let her 4 year old be taken to a mosque?
> 
> I'm not saying young people shouldn't get exposure to various beliefs. I just think it should be when they have developed the reasoning skills to handle it and I don't see any good reason to expose kids that young to religion. If you've ever watched Jesus Camp then you can understand why I say that. Your child is lucky she has you for guidance.



Nanna's church is plenty liberal; gay ministers and what not.  If it was SBC I'd be more concerned.


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## atlashunter (Dec 15, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Nanna's church is plenty liberal; gay ministers and what not.  If it was SBC I'd be more concerned.



Yeah that would make a big difference. That's not the sort of church I was brought up in.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2012)

She asked me today: "How does Santa know when you are sleeping and when you are awake?"

I told her that Santa and his magic powers is make believe like Dora The Explorer but it's still fun to pretend.

All is well.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 17, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I told her that Santa and his magic powers is make believe like Dora The Explorer but it's still fun to pretend.



Dang, man....I let my kid believe in Santa until he was 8.  May parents never let me believe in Santa (for religious reasons), and I always kind-of resented it.  Feel like I missed out, I guess.

Anyway, when I finally told him Santa wasn't real, he said "I know."  When I asked how, he said "All of his letters were in your handwriting."  Smart kid.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2012)

There's enough real stuff to enjoy.


----------



## stringmusic (Dec 17, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Anyway, when I finally told him Santa wasn't real, he said "I know."  When I asked how, he said "All of his letters were in your handwriting."  Smart kid.



Thanks for the heads up man, I'm gonna get my boy to e-mail Santa now.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> There's enough real stuff to enjoy.



And allknowingyou knows what's real and what isn't.
You still got that 84 point deer in your 'sight'? lol


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Think she would let her 4 year old be taken to a mosque?
> 
> I'm not saying young people shouldn't get exposure to various beliefs. I just think it should be when they have developed the reasoning skills to handle it and I don't see any good reason to expose kids that young to religion. If you've ever watched Jesus Camp then you can understand why I say that. Your child is lucky she has you for guidance.



Yeah now she can keep her mind on the 200lb catfish y'all are gonna catch....the dream fish or the dream deer.... Good grief just dash everyone's sweet little dreams...

Bah Humbug.


----------



## vowell462 (Dec 17, 2012)

Whew! I havent even spoke yet, and I cant now because im speechless.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> Whew! I havent even spoke yet, and I cant now because im speechless.



Then just


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> And allknowingyou knows what's real and what isn't.
> You still got that 84 point deer in your 'sight'? lol



You're right.  I have no way to prove there is no Santa Clause.


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 17, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You're right.  I have no way to prove there is no Santa Clause.



Well then let her have her little imagination...like her daddy and his deer fantasies....  git it?


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Yeah now she can keep her mind on the 200lb catfish y'all are gonna catch....the dream fish or the dream deer.... Good grief just dash everyone's sweet little dreams...
> 
> Bah Humbug.



What are you talking about?


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well then let her have her little imagination...like her daddy and his deer fantasies....  git it?




I git it.  We should all live in Fantasy Land.  Live and let live.....in Fantasy Land.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I git it.  We should all live in Fantasy Land.  Live and let live.....in Fantasy Land.



Teaching kids how and what you want to teach them is a priviledge of parenting.  If you do not want your daughter believing in Santa, or Jesus, or Zeus, or the FSM that is your choice.  I don't know why anybody would suggest you are wrong for that.

For me, I let mine stay in fantasy land as long as possible.  Life's tough, why not enjoy mystery and magic while we can (as kids).  But, that's just my way of looking at it.  As I said, my parents didn't want me to believe in Santa because they wanted the focus of Christmas to be on Jesus.....and they wanted us to know that they were the ones who bought the presents.  

Anyway, I have found this thread to be very interesting.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Dec 18, 2012)

When my daughter asks me about what she hears in church, I tell her that it is a theory that the people believe. When she asks me about evolution I tell her it's a theory that people believe. If things in church were presented to her as theory, then I would be able to swallow it much more easily. It's when it is presented as fact, when in fact, it is not fact. Fact 



mtnwoman said:


> No one I know can walk on water or raise from the dead, but the Son of God. But people do fly, don't they?....a feat no one thought was possible 2000 years ago. In time we will have ALL the answers. Sunday School can't be any more ridiculous than teaching the theory of evolution to kids....at least give her  an 'even' chance to discover what she believes....what if you are wrong? You wanna be responsible for that? Let her be open to everything, please!


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

TripleXBullies said:


> When my daughter asks me about what she hears in church, I tell her that it is a theory that the people believe. When she asks me about evolution I tell her it's a theory that people believe. If things in church were presented to her as theory, then I would be able to swallow it much more easily. It's when it is presented as fact, when in fact, it is not fact. Fact



I'd like her to know that it's important to examine the evidence for each theory as well.  

I like that: "The Theory of God".


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Teaching kids how and what you want to teach them is a priviledge of parenting.  If you do not want your daughter believing in Santa, or Jesus, or Zeus, or the FSM that is your choice.  I don't know why anybody would suggest you are wrong for that.
> 
> For me, I let mine stay in fantasy land as long as possible.  Life's tough, why not enjoy mystery and magic while we can (as kids).  But, that's just my way of looking at it.  As I said, my parents didn't want me to believe in Santa because they wanted the focus of Christmas to be on Jesus.....and they wanted us to know that they were the ones who bought the presents.
> 
> Anyway, I have found this thread to be very interesting.



Yes.  Enjoy the fantasy by all means.  I love a good fiction.  The Avengers is one of my new favorite movies.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Yes.  Enjoy the fantasy by all means.  I love a good fiction.  The Avengers is one of my new favorite movies.





It's when people either can't or refuse to distinguish between fantasy and reality that the problems start.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It's when people either can't or refuse to distinguish between fantasy and reality that the problems start.



Problems, indeed.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> It's when people either can't or refuse to distinguish between fantasy and reality that the problems start.



I may need to take this to the other thread where we touched on the subject.....but I gotta take issue with the above assertion.

1.  I don't think very many people are worse off for believing in Santa at a young age.

2. With faith, "fantasy and reality" are blurred.  Neither side can claim "reality" with 100% proof.....each side has 100% confidence, but there is a difference.

3.  I am a Christian.  I stand for individual freedom, including religious freedom.  I have used my faith for "good," as do many, many others.  YEs, there are those who use it for harm, but that is not the fault of the belief system.....it is the fault of the individual.

Where is the "problem" in any of that?  I am no more afraid of Hindus or Buddhists or any other belief system that I don't necessarily believe in than I am afraid of my lesbian neighbors, or my agnostic neighbors.  They just believe differently than I do.....I fail to see the problem here.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I may need to take this to the other thread where we touched on the subject.....but I gotta take issue with the above assertion.
> 
> 1.  I don't think very many people are worse off for believing in Santa at a young age.
> 
> ...



Charles Manson, Jim Jones, David Koresh, Marshall Applewhite... what was the problem with those who had faith in them and their teachings? They had their beliefs, you have yours. Fault of the belief system? Or the individual? If the individual, where exactly did they go wrong? I'd say they went wrong in the same way that Mohammed Atta went wrong, that Andrea Yates went wrong, that Pope Urban II went wrong. They surrendered reason to faith and in doing so lost their ability to distinguish fantasy from reality. Any lie can be accepted on faith. Why should credulity be afforded an equal respect as evidence based reason? Taking history into account it's foolish to do so.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Any lie can be accepted on faith. Why should credulity be afforded an equal respect as evidence based reason? Taking history into account it's foolish to do so.



I can agree with you that being crazy creates problems, but I can't agree that accepting something on faith does so.  Crazy people use faith as an excuse for thier insanity.  Billions of people believe in things "on faith" and do not use such faith to hurt other people.

Santa never hurt me.  My boy who believed in him for a good while seems to have survived the societal hoax, I'm sure my daughter will fair just as well.  Jesus never hurt anybody.....and anybody who hurts other people in his name have totally missed the point.



			
				atlashunter said:
			
		

> They surrendered reason to faith and in doing so lost their ability to distinguish fantasy from reality.



That is still the fault of the individual for using that faith to cause harm.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I can agree with you that being crazy creates problems, but I can't agree that accepting something on faith does so.  Crazy people use faith as an excuse for thier insanity.  Billions of people believe in things "on faith" and do not use such faith to hurt other people.



Were all of those people insane? Was Atta? I'd say in many cases they are acting rationally according to their beliefs. The problem is the means by which they came to accept those beliefs as being true. You'll often hear cult members say they know something is true because of how the cult leader makes them feel or how the belief makes them feel. I'm not saying that living in a fantasy world always leads to destruction. Most of the time it doesn't. But it definitely opens the door to it. Even if you never cause anyone else harm you're doing harm to yourself to go through life believing in falsehoods having abandoned the tools available to you to discover and correct those falsehoods.




JB0704 said:


> Santa never hurt me.  My boy who believed in him for a good while seems to have survived the societal hoax, I'm sure my daughter will fair just as well.  Jesus never hurt anybody.....and anybody who hurts other people in his name have totally missed the point.



That's just your faith based interpretation. Others have their own. And as you have said, neither of you have 100% proof so what makes your faith based position any more valid than the faith based position of a fundamentalist muslim or WBC member?




JB0704 said:


> That is still the fault of the individual for using that faith to cause harm.



Sure it is their fault but I think you are still missing the point. Faith is just the excuse given to accept and claim true that which cannot be supported as true by reason alone. And that is dangerous. Had the people I mention not relied upon faith they would have avoided the destructive ends their faith led them to. The tragedy is that they had the tool of their minds all along but they abandoned that tool in favor of believing what felt good, of what they wished to be true. It was their own mental laziness and cowardice to face the world as it is and conform their minds to what is regardless of how it made them feel, that led to their own destruction and in some cases the destruction of others.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Were all of those people insane? Was Atta?



Yes.  But, that's just my very biased opinion based on all the millions of muslims in this world who never hurt anybody.  We can take all the "bad apples" from all the religions in the world, and compare them to the majority of the believers of that religion, and find that the "bad apples" are a definite minority.  What's the difference between them and the peaceful ones?



atlashunter said:


> But it definitely opens the door to it.



Being alive opens the door to many harmful things, but I'm not offin' myself anytime soon.



atlashunter said:


> Even if you never cause anyone else harm you're doing harm to yourself to go through life believing in falsehoods having abandoned the tools available to you to discover and correct those falsehoods.



A couple of things....one, "harm to yourself" is subjective.  Second, you can accept something on faith while leaving the door open to being wrong.  I live that reality every day.  I was a "7 day creationist" for the majority of my life until the evidence became overwhelming to the contrary.




atlashunter said:


> That's just your faith based interpretation. Others have their own. And as you have said, neither of you have 100% proof so what makes your faith based position any more valid than the faith based position of a fundamentalist muslim or WBC member?



"Valid" is also subjective.  I would compare the results of the assumption.  One is harmful, and the other is not.



atlashunter said:


> Faith is just the excuse given to accept and claim true that which cannot be supported as true by reason alone. And that is dangerous.



Again, it is not the faith, but the individual exercising their perspective to a negative end.  Your argument is the same as blaming guns for murder.



atlashunter said:


> It was their own mental laziness and cowardice to face the world as it is and conform their minds to what is regardless of how it made them feel, that led to their own destruction and in some cases the destruction of others.



Then....we agree?


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.  But, that's just my very biased opinion based on all the millions of muslims in this world who never hurt anybody.  We can take all the "bad apples" from all the religions in the world, and compare them to the majority of the believers of that religion, and find that the "bad apples" are a definite minority.  What's the difference between them and the peaceful ones?



Often times the difference is the level of their faith based convictions. A lot of folks will claim to believe something on faith but when the cost of the belief gets high they will abandon it. That's a good thing. I don't think Atta was insane or otherwise mentally ill unless you want to call it a mental illness to be out of touch with reality due to your faith based beliefs. I think he genuinely believed in his god, that he was acting in the service of his god, and that he would be rewarded in the after life. He believed that to his core. His acts were rational in the context of those beliefs which is why I don't think he was insane. The problem is there is absolutely no evidence based reason to believe any of those things are actually true. It requires faith and that is my point. You know who else believed strongly enough that he was willing to hurt someone? Abraham. A man that is revered by followers of all three Abrahamic religions. Was he also insane? Or just a man of great faith?




JB0704 said:


> Second, you can accept something on faith while leaving the door open to being wrong.  I live that reality every day.  I was a "7 day creationist" for the majority of my life until the evidence became overwhelming to the contrary.



Sure but why would you do that? I could say I have faith that there is a multiverse but I'm open to evidence that might prove my faith based assumption wrong. Claiming that which I do not know to be true on the basis of faith is dishonest. If I say I _know_ there is a multiverse and give faith as my reason I'm being dishonest about what I really know. If I say I think there may be a multiverse there is no need for faith. It doesn't require faith to say what could be but is left an open question until further evidence comes to light.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Often times the difference is the level of their faith based convictions. A lot of folks will claim to believe something on faith but when the cost of the belief gets high they will abandon it. That's a good thing. I don't think Atta was insane or otherwise mentally ill unless you want to call it a mental illness to be out of touch with reality due to your faith based beliefs. I think he genuinely believed in his god, that he was acting in the service of his god, and that he would be rewarded in the after life. He believed that to his core. His acts were rational in the context of those beliefs which is why I don't think he was insane. The problem is there is absolutely no evidence based reason to believe any of those things are actually true. It requires faith and that is my point. You know who else believed strongly enough that he was willing to hurt someone? Abraham. A man that is revered by followers of all three Abrahamic religions. Was he also insane? Or just a man of great faith?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I vote "insane".

Can't wait for the "When you hear the Lord's voice..." or "When you have your heart pricked..."  defense.


----------



## tween_the_banks (Dec 18, 2012)

Jeff Buckley covering Cohen's Hallelujah pricked my heart, but that wasn't god, just good ole Rock and Roll.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

tween_the_banks said:


> Jeff Buckley covering Cohen's Hallelujah pricked my heart, but that wasn't god, just good ole Rock and Roll.



I thought Adam Sandler did a decent job too.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 18, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Often times the difference is the level of their faith based convictions.



Yes. Crazy people will take things to extremes that rational people will not.

You and I do not blame guns for gun violence.  Why do you blame faith for faith based violence?  It seem the faith simply becomes an excuse to do harm.  Manson, for example, went out and created an excuse without faith.

Crazy people do crazy things.



atlashunter said:


> Atta... I think he genuinely believed in his god, that he was acting in the service of his god, and that he would be rewarded in the after life. He believed that to his core. His acts were rational in the context of those beliefs which is why I don't think he was insane.



Somehow, millions of people with the same beliefs draw different conclusions 



atlashunter said:


> Abraham....Was he also insane? Or just a man of great faith?



Depends on what the truth is.  If he really did hear God, then great faith.  If there is no God, then insane.



atlashunter said:


> Sure but why would you do that? I could say I have faith that there is a multiverse but I'm open to evidence that might prove my faith based assumption wrong.



Thats where our logic parts ways.  You can say there is a multiverse, but you have no evidence.  I can say there is a God....and I believe I have evidence.  You choose to view it differently than I do, so you come to a very different conclusion.

Either way, I am sure we are both perfectly sane, productive, and safe neighbors.......with very different faiths.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

tween_the_banks said:


> Jeff Buckley covering Cohen's Hallelujah pricked my heart, but that wasn't god, just good ole Rock and Roll.



Poor dead, crazy, beautiful artist.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Yes. Crazy people will take things to extremes that rational people will not.
> 
> You and I do not blame guns for gun violence.  Why do you blame faith for faith based violence?  It seem the faith simply becomes an excuse to do harm.  Manson, for example, went out and created an excuse without faith.
> 
> ...



If you or I heard God command us to do something, who would be most likely to obey?


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Yes. Crazy people will take things to extremes that rational people will not.
> 
> You and I do not blame guns for gun violence.  Why do you blame faith for faith based violence?  It seem the faith simply becomes an excuse to do harm.  Manson, for example, went out and created an excuse without faith.
> 
> Crazy people do crazy things.



As you point out with Abraham, it's not crazy if his beliefs are true. If it turns out that Atta's beliefs were true then what he did was just as rational as you claim Abraham's actions were if his were true. The problem is that faith is not a means of differentiating fantasy from reality, truth from fiction. Therein lies the danger.




JB0704 said:


> Somehow, millions of people with the same beliefs draw different conclusions



Sure and like I have already said most people have a sense of self preservation that trumps their faith. A lot of folks out there share Atta's religious beliefs but not enough to act on it. But that is beside the point. The point is not what others believe it's what the guy behind the controls of that airliner believed and what motivated him to behave in the way he did. It was a faith based world view, a willingness to accept claims without evidence.




JB0704 said:


> Depends on what the truth is.  If he really did hear God, then great faith.  If there is no God, then insane.



And if Andrea Yates really did hear God... Or Atta, etc. Whatever you happen to believe or not believe one thing that we should be able to agree on is that there are a vast number of competing and contradictory beliefs floating around out there that can't all be true if any are and the relevant question in this is what is true. That is what matters. But some people place less importance on that question and more on how they feel. Something that has no bearing on the truth. Maybe that is how we ended up with so many competing beliefs to begin with.

I suspect that you don't live that way yourself. If someone was to knock on your door and tell you that the creator of the universe had sent them with a wonderful investment opportunity that would increase 100 fold but you had to demonstrate your faith by investing everything you own I suspect you would want to see some hard evidence. If your wife said "They are telling us the truth and I know it because I can feel it. It just feels so right when they tell me about this opportunity and the returns we can make.". Now yes if they happen to be telling the truth the rational thing to do is go for it. And if they are lying the rational thing is to tell them to get lost. Is faith of any value in determining whether they are telling you the truth or not? No it isn't. Going with your wife's gut feeling is a shot in the dark. It's an irrational move and in a world where you've got thousands of guys selling this scheme even if it happens to be true in one particular case it still isn't rational to go off of faith even if you happen to guess right. And it's dangerous to take that risk. Now maybe you aren't putting everything you have on the line for that chance like Atta did, so the risks aren't as high. But that still doesn't make it any less irrational.




JB0704 said:


> Thats where our logic parts ways.  You can say there is a multiverse, but you have no evidence.  I can say there is a God....and I believe I have evidence.  You choose to view it differently than I do, so you come to a very different conclusion.



Well if you are making an evidence based argument for God then no faith is needed. You present your evidence for your world view and I present mine and we can find ways to put the evidence to the test. But if you make a faith based argument for God I can't test that. I can't test "it makes me feel good to believe this therefore it must be true". All I can do is point out how irrational that is and how prone to error it is. Even if you happened to be right it would be of no value in demonstrating the truth of the claim. If we still lived in a time where people thought the earth was flat and I told you it was round because I found the idea of a world that you couldn't fall off the edge of more comforting that is poor thinking and a false premise even if I happened to get the conclusion right. Just as importantly it brings nothing to the table in terms of determining whether my claim is true or false.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 18, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Poor dead, crazy, beautiful artist.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 19, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> If you or I heard God command us to do something, who would be most likely to obey?



I think you and I would both be scratching our heads wondering how we convinced ourselves that we heard God.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 19, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think you and I would both be scratching our heads wondering how we convinced ourselves that we heard God.



I would do nothing of the sort.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 19, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I would do nothing of the sort.



So....if you "heard God" you would do as the voice commands?  Or, would you search for a natural explanation to the situation?

I know that I am not so certain God "speaks" anymore, particularly since the NT was complete (Bible discussion for another sub-forum), so I would be quite perplexed at the circumstance.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> So....if you "heard God" you would do as the voice commands?  Or, would you search for a natural explanation to the situation?
> 
> I know that I am not so certain God "speaks" anymore, particularly since the NT was complete (Bible discussion for another sub-forum), so I would be quite perplexed at the circumstance.




If I heard a  voice announce itself as God, God is the absolute LAST thing I would think it was.  I think my "wait...could it be?" moment would come much later than a believers if ever at all. 

Ask upstairs about hearing God.  Many will say they've heard him.  They ask him what to do in crucial situations and often get answers.   Very scary.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> They ask him what to do in crucial situations and often get answers.



I pray too, brother.  Did a lot of it yesterday, and today.  I never expect a response, it's an exercise in faith.  If I heard a voice, I wouldn't initially expect it to have been God's.

BTW, this reminds me of the "Free Willzyx" episode of South Park, one of the best ever.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I pray too, brother.  Did a lot of it yesterday, and today.  I never expect a response, it's an exercise in faith.  If I heard a voice, I wouldn't initially expect it to have been God's.
> 
> BTW, this reminds me of the "Free Willzyx" episode of South Park, one of the best ever.



You don't think you would say "Is that really you, God?"


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 20, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You don't think you would say "Is that really you, God?"



Depends on the situation.  If I'm in a dessert, fully hydrated, can see nothing for miles, sure.  If I'm in a forest, with plenty of places for folks to hide, I would suspect a hoax.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 20, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Depends on the situation.  If I'm in a dessert, fully hydrated, can see nothing for miles, sure.  If I'm in a forest, with plenty of places for folks to hide, I would suspect a hoax.



I would ALWAYS suspect a hoax or mental instability.


----------



## BobKat (Jan 8, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What I got out of Sunday School was: "Be good or go to He11", which served some purpose I suppose.



you got that to?   thats what i learned and if you are gay you go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, if you dont do exaclty what the bible says you go to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - and so on and so forth..... i beileve there is a God/Gods..... i dont think the bible is accurate.  I also dont think that God/Gods who created us in their image would doom people to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - all the time like i was taught this is why i no longer go to church, when i want to see what the higher being created and where he is i get back to nature.


----------



## BobKat (Jan 8, 2013)

if i type he** it says i am a potty mouth.... my bad


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 8, 2013)

BobKat said:


> if i type he** it says i am a potty mouth.... my bad



REplace the "LL" with "11."  The mods in here have typically allowed that even though it is typing around the filter.  I guess because the word is necessary in many of these discussions.


----------



## BobKat (Jan 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> REplace the "LL" with "11."  The mods in here have typically allowed that even though it is typing around the filter.  I guess because the word is necessary in many of these discussions.



thank you


----------



## jmharris23 (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm just always surprised at how people think these discussions of crucifixion or blood and such will scar kids. 

I grew up in church and am a believer and don't really remember when I first encountered all the gory details of the cross. 

That said, other than becoming a believer myself I don't think I was scarred in any way 

I surely don't remember running home to my parents in horror at what we talked about in Sunday school. 

I also know that while many proclaim the cross to be horrendous and don't want their children exposed to it, they allow their children to be exposed to many other gory and child inappropriate themes on TV ( not saying this applies to anyone involved in this discussion, just sure that it happens)


----------



## Four (Jan 8, 2013)

jmharris23 said:


> I'm just always surprised at how people think these discussions of crucifixion or blood and such will scar kids.
> 
> I grew up in church and am a believer and don't really remember when I first encountered all the gory details of the cross.
> 
> ...



From a child's perspective, you cannot understand why a father tortuously sacrificing his son would be a bit scarring? or at least worrying? Especially when this is held as an ideal example of moral goodness and love?

It seems completely self-evident to me.


----------



## BobKat (Jan 8, 2013)

Four said:


> From a child's perspective, you cannot understand why a father tortuously sacrificing his son would be a bit scarring? or at least worrying? Especially when this is held as an ideal example of moral goodness and love?
> 
> It seems completely self-evident to me.



i dont remember hearing about it as a child alot..... all that was ever said was that god loved us so much that his son gave his life for us. i always thought it was odd but never scary. most of my problems came about in my teen years when i started checking into things myself. thats when i started to realize that i didnt agree with the bibles accuracy or my churches beliefs.


----------



## JB0704 (Jan 8, 2013)

BobKat said:


> thats when i started to realize that i didnt agree with the bibles accuracy or my churches beliefs.



Was it that your church's beliefs didn't line up with the Bible, or that you didn't agree with the Bible's position on things?


----------



## BobKat (Jan 8, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Was it that your church's beliefs didn't line up with the Bible, or that you didn't agree with the Bible's position on things?



a little of both


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## ambush80 (Jan 8, 2013)

BobKat said:


> a little of both



That's a precarious place to be.  When I was at that place I remember believers were worried about my soul.  They were less concerned that I was honest with what I believed in.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> That's a precarious place to be.  When I was at that place I remember believers were worried about my soul.  They were less concerned that I was honest with what I believed in.



And that is when you you have to stop worrying about what others believe and accept your own beliefs be it traditional Southern Baptist, Non-Trinitarian, or Atheist. You can't help how you believe. You might not even have a choice. You need to worry about your own soul. You gotta walk that lonesome valley, nobody else can walk it for you. Why would someone go against the grain or their upbringing knowing it would cause problems? Sure some teenagers might as an experiment or for rebellious reasons. When I decided I didn't believe Jesus was God, it didn't set well with family members. Oh well, I can't help what I believe. I used my own brain to think for myself. I researched the Bible for myself. I would encourage others to do this also.


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## BobKat (Jan 9, 2013)

i just dont beilieve that the bible is accurate its been translated so many different times and over so many years theres no way it is. I also dont like it because in the old testament it talks about how it was ok to stone people to death and such but then its wrong to do so later on.... it tends to second guess itself to me. and if God created us in his/their image then why would he doom those that are gay or what not to he11 ? this is what bothers me and by the way iv never seen this in the bible but so many "christians" believe it. I dont really agree with it, does that make me not a christian?


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2013)

BobKat said:


> I also dont like it because in the old testament it talks about how it was ok to stone people to death and such but then its wrong to do so later on.... it tends to second guess itself to me.



There's an awful lot of information to understand that, but primarily, you have to look at it as two different eras within history.  The interaction was different, the rules were different.  Then, there is a clear line seperating the two. 



BobKat said:


> this is what bothers me and by the way iv never seen this in the bible but so many "christians" believe it. I dont really agree with it, does that make me not a christian?



I think not believing in God or Jesus would make somebody not a Christian.  The rest are doctrinal differences.


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## BobKat (Jan 9, 2013)

i believe there was a higher being that had a hand in creating us. but i also feel like that maybe that being isnt really watching us anymore or just maybe doesnt care anymore.... thats who i think god is


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