# The morality of bloodsports



## ambush80 (Nov 12, 2012)

Every year around this time I examine my personal morals about hunting.  Anybody else?


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## Tim L (Nov 12, 2012)

To be honest I stopped hunting years ago; I have no problem with hunting for suvival purposes (such as if you really need to sharpen your survival skills) or as a truly needed food source.  However taking another creatures life just for my own entertainment or sporting purposes, well no.


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## ambush80 (Nov 12, 2012)

Tim L said:


> To be honest I stopped hunting years ago; I have no problem with hunting for suvival purposes (such as if you really need to sharpen your survival skills) or as a truly needed food source.  However taking another creatures life just for my own entertainment or sporting purposes, well no.



That's what I'm talking about.


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## jmharris23 (Nov 12, 2012)

Man.....I've seen it all now . Two guys on an outdoor forum discussing the potential immorality of sport hunting.


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## bullethead (Nov 12, 2012)

I/we hunt and use as much venison as possible. We eat all edible game. I figure that if we take the animals life we will use the resources it provides. We do give thanks to the animal for what it has provided for us. Deer, bear , turkeys, rabbits, pheasants, grouse, squirrels etc are never taken just for the sake of shooting them.
Groundhogs, coyotes and crows do not get the same consideration for table fare but I do think keeping those numbers in check help  other wildlife and the farmers livelihoods.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 12, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> every year around this time i examine my personal morals about hunting.  Anybody else?


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2012)

I felt bad about it the first time my kid killed a deer.  Not sure why, but the idea of introducing him to killin' was a bit...."off."  I never told him that.  But, seeing a 9 yr old celebrate the death of something made me question my approach.

That's just me being honest.  The truth is, I spent many years as a "poor single dad."  My boy and I only ate the game I killed and the fish I caught....and I learned how to hunt real cheap in those days.  That's also why I learned how to process my own meat.

But, I do see the moral questions with "trophy hunting."  I don't think there is an issue with it, but I can see why a non-hunter would find the practice "immoral."  I am guilty also....because I have a habit of singling out deer and chasing specific ones.  Some years it works, other years....not so much.   But, when I do get it, I eat it.  For me, that removes the moral question 'cause I believe the whole food chain serves a purpose, and deer are meant to be eaten.

About my kid, I started teaching him to respect the animals he killed.  He shot a deer a few weeks back, and was excited about the bacon-wrapped backstrap and shoulder roasts we were about to eat more than the fact that he just killed something.  The deer became many meals.  And he was glad for it.  Just finished off a plate of cubed steak tonight.  We like it more than beef.  And, buying a steak kills a cow just as much as hunting kills deer.


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## Tim L (Nov 12, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> Man.....I've seen it all now . Two guys on an outdoor forum discussing the potential immorality of sport hunting.



LOL I know what your saying, but this is also about sports, politics, and about 50 other sections last time I looked.  But (and I'm not condeming hunters I'm just saying what I think)....I've shot alot of squirels, possums, raccons, quail, etc, in my life, I may have eaten some of it (LOL what they say about possum and sweet potatoes being good is a lie, its not fit to eat), but I was doing it more or less for sport and running around around with my friends at night for fun in my younger days (the possum and coon hunting).....But once I shot a squril and well, it fell from the tree, I ran up to it, but it wasn't dead, watched it quiver and finally die.  It kind of hit me then that thing had a right to its life too and who the crap was I to kill it just for my own sport and entertainment.  I never had the urge to do that again and that was along time ago.  Don't get me wrong, I've shot more than a few crows that wouldn't leave my garden alone and a few dogs that had to be shot.  But that was something else, protecting food and putting some dogs out of their misery.  But not for fun...


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I/we hunt and use as much venison as possible. We eat all edible game. I figure that if we take the animals life we will use the resources it provides. We do give thanks to the animal for what it has provided for us. Deer, bear , turkeys, rabbits, pheasants, grouse, squirrels etc are never taken just for the sake of shooting them.
> Groundhogs, coyotes and crows do not get the same consideration for table fare but I do think keeping those numbers in check help  other wildlife and the farmers livelihoods.



You eat bear?  I have family that kills them every spring in Canada, and the meat gets tossed.  I just can't get into that, so I never went along.  I would only shoot a bear if I was gonna eat it.  I will shoot a coyote because it's gonna eat the deer I'm trying to eat.

I don't blame you for not eating crows.

Interesting thing about you PA guys, every person I know up there takes advantage of every single game in season, where down here it's all about the deer and turkeys.

Ever watch the guys who make leatherwood outdoors youtube videos?  I think they are in Northwest PA......and those dudes eat rattlesnake


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## mtnwoman (Nov 12, 2012)

Killing for sport is just wrong to me.

For food yes or to feed others, yes. Just for the sheer thrill of killing, absolutely no.


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## PappyHoel (Nov 12, 2012)

Better not eat meat or eggs then.  Go be vegans.  Fish hurt too.


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## River Rambler (Nov 12, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> Man.....I've seen it all now . Two guys on an outdoor forum discussing the potential immorality of sport hunting.



No kidding. 
Hunting is not for everyone...neither is a lot of things. If you get too lovey dovey with those big doe eyes, and decide to call it quits...no biggie. I'm not going to criticise you. Just don't try and push it on everyone else as if it's unusual or you are "above" it...because frankly you just lost your appetite for what's genetically in all of us and socially in many of us...a heritage of hunting. 

I prefer to keep a my skills sharp for when I need it. Hunting provides that as well as and passing down the education, skills, and stories of the outdoors that were provided to me. 

There's no replacing the connection to nature and first hand experience of God's world. It's rarely about killing and almost always about yourself and/or your family and the things you want to pass on to them. 

Again, if it isn't your thing, great. But don't knock everyone else down, because this sport, well there's no replacement for the lessons it teaches.


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2012)

River Rambler said:


> Again, if it isn't your thing, great. But don't knock everyone else down, because this sport, well there's no replacement for the lessons it teaches.



I don't think anyone is knocking anyone else down here.  It's just a question on the morality of killin' for the sake of killin'.  I'm guilty of it in a way 'cause even though I eat everything I kill, I try to target specific deer sometimes.

I am a hunter, and my son hunts, but I think it's wrong to kill a dang bear over a big barrell of bait if the person killin' it is just gonna toss the meat in the woods.  That's my position, and I would never force it on anyone else.  I just don't make the annual pilgrimage to Saskatchewan that many in my family take.


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## bluemarlin (Nov 12, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> Man.....I've seen it all now . Two guys on an outdoor forum discussing the potential immorality of sport hunting.



^ Hilarious... Just like this thread.


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## bullethead (Nov 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> You eat bear?  I have family that kills them every spring in Canada, and the meat gets tossed.  I just can't get into that, so I never went along.  I would only shoot a bear if I was gonna eat it.  I will shoot a coyote because it's gonna eat the deer I'm trying to eat.
> 
> I don't blame you for not eating crows.
> 
> ...



Bear meat (like anything else) is delicious if made right. I killed one bear (maine) and butchered and ate it. The backstraps were very tasty and the roasts cooked low and slow in marinade and veggies made for good table fare. Like most game, the bigger and older it is the less likely it is going to be tender. I actually stopped hunting bear. I always wanted a PA bear but only would have liked to shoot a big male. I think bear are extremely hard to judge size wise unless you have a long time to judge one. Being that most bear are being pushed and running through the woods at mach2, it is just too hard to get an accurate guesstimate on size. I don't want to kill a sow and especially do not want to kill a sow with cubs and I most definitely do not want to shoot a cub. Being that I shot a nice 376lb boar in Maine and have a full mount I just have no desire to take another one. Though Pa, and especially around my area, have some gigantic black bear. 500-600lbs is quite common and 700-800-900lb bear are a reality with a few taken in the north east part of the state over the years.

Those leatherwood guys frequent huntingpa.com and seem to be the real deal when it comes to hunting hard and eating what they harvest. They have some of the best archery videos.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 12, 2012)

jmharris23 said:


> Man.....I've seen it all now . Two guys on an outdoor forum discussing the potential immorality of sport hunting.



Pretty soon we'll have a PETA and HSUS forum on here.


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Bear meat (like anything else) is delicious if made right. I killed one bear (maine) and butchered and ate it.



Cool.  My dad wanted to take my kid on a bear hunt here in Ga., and I said only if he brought the meat home.  I figured if he got one I'd have to figure out how to cook it, but, the hunt never happened.  



bullethead said:


> Those leatherwood guys frequent huntingpa.com and seem to be the real deal when it comes to hunting hard and eating what they harvest. They have some of the best archery videos.



I stumbled across their videos searching youtube for "PA deer hunting."  Now, I always look for them to post new ones.  They even make the dang turtle huntin' videos interesting.

I still have a lot of family up there, but they don't hunt rattlesnakes or eat turtles.  But they do get into bow-fishing for carp, shooting crows, rabbits, squirrell, deer, turkey, and they fish for everything that swims.  I tell folks down here that I knew a lot more "rednecks" in PA than I do in Ga.


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2012)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Pretty soon we'll have a PETA and HSUS forum on here.



Nah, the OP was stirring the pot a little, and asking a question about the personal morality of hunting.  Up in the hunting forum, we all discuss those issues all the time.   Whether it is hunting over bait, shooting does, shooting little bucks, sitting on property lines, turning in related poachers, etc.  It's all related.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, the OP was stirring the pot a little, and asking a question about the personal morality of hunting.  Up in the hunting forum, we all discuss those issues all the time.   Whether it is hunting over bait, shooting does, shooting little bucks, sitting on property lines, turning in related poachers, etc.  It's all related.



Sounds like the topics of Ethics and Morality are getting mixed together here a bit.


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## JB0704 (Nov 12, 2012)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Sounds like the topics of Ethics and Morality are getting mixed together here a bit.



Maybe so.  But, this particular sub-forum has been draggin' a while.  I applaud the effort at getting a conversation going.


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## bullethead (Nov 12, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Cool.  My dad wanted to take my kid on a bear hunt here in Ga., and I said only if he brought the meat home.  I figured if he got one I'd have to figure out how to cook it, but, the hunt never happened.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Snapping Turtle soup is amazing. Flat out delicious.

In north east Pa, we are coal-crackin rednecks for sure!!


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 12, 2012)

I think if you eat meat of any sorts you should be able to kill it. Don't make somebody else do your dirty work.

I think plants have  a brain spread out all through their leaves, stalks, and roots. There is no difference killing an animal than a plant. Plants are smarter than you think and have feelings. At least the animal has a chance to run. 

What about the mice & roaches you kill? You don't eat them. What about the bacteria, germs, and viruses? They got rights too.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 12, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Snapping Turtle soup is amazing. Flat out delicious.
> 
> In north east Pa, we are coal-crackin rednecks for sure!!



I like soft shell turtle soup and mock turtle soup. Those mock turtles are hard to catch.
The South sure don't have a monopoly on Rednecks.


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## Four (Nov 13, 2012)

Funny, when i saw the thread title i assumed it was referring to traditional blood sport, roman style... the modern equivalent would be boxing, or MMA..

From a moral perspective, if it's voluntary between two people, its not immoral. One could argue that an increase in this type of blood-sport is a bad signal for the society.. but still moral.

As for hunting, the kill makes up less than 1% of the experience. If someone wanted to kill for the thrill, there are easier ways to do it. Tracking, planning, planting food plots, hanging out at the cabin, talking hunting with your buddies, sitting in the woods, etc... that's what's to be appreciated more.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

Four said:


> Funny, when i saw the thread title i assumed it was referring to traditional blood sport, roman style... the modern equivalent would be boxing, or MMA..
> 
> From a moral perspective, if it's voluntary between two people, its not immoral. One could argue that an increase in this type of blood-sport is a bad signal for the society.. but still moral.
> 
> As for hunting, the kill makes up less than 1% of the experience. If someone wanted to kill for the thrill, there are easier ways to do it. Tracking, planning, planting food plots, hanging out at the cabin, talking hunting with your buddies, sitting in the woods, etc... that's what's to be appreciated more.



...and I love all that stuff. I like the meat very much as well  (Sometimes I prefer a cow steak, though).  I agree that if one eats meat one should have intimate knowledge of the killing (and butchering) process.  

I caught and released bass fished for a long time.  I used to say "I'm honing my predatory skills".  I know how to catch a fish and kill deer, squirrels, rabbits, skin a buck, run a trot line....  I can survive.  Now when I catch and release, I feel like pulled this fish around by its face, caused it to go into panic mode and for what?   Last time I caught and released I took the neighbor kid.  I felt he needed some 'honing'.   

When I want to eat fish, I prefer to get them myself.  I suppose its the same with deer meat. The logic of it seems to be in question for me these days.  It's not really economical or non consumptive when I factor in gas and time lost.  For myself and my situation I can't really call it anything else than amusement.  Killing for amusement.  So far it's still amusing enough to keep[ on doing it.  I also enjoy the ego boost that bringing wild meat home gives me, but that's maybe another issue....


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> View attachment 698756



I feel more manly defeating another human being than a stupid deer.  They don't seem so wiley when i watch them  stomping and blowing through my scope.



River Rambler said:


> No kidding.
> Hunting is not for everyone...neither is a lot of things. If you get too lovey dovey with those big doe eyes, and decide to call it quits...no biggie. I'm not going to criticise you. Just don't try and push it on everyone else as if it's unusual or you are "above" it...because frankly you just lost your appetite for what's genetically in all of us and socially in many of us...a heritage of hunting.
> 
> I prefer to keep a my skills sharp for when I need it. Hunting provides that as well as and passing down the education, skills, and stories of the outdoors that were provided to me.
> ...



Relax.  I'm not criticizing anyone.  I agree with everything you say about the value of hunting.  I intend to teach my daughter all about it. I guess I got to a point where I'm trying to figure out how it fits into my life at this time in my life.  "God says it's OK" isn't a good enough answer for me.



Miguel Cervantes said:


> Pretty soon we'll have a PETA and HSUS forum on here.



The Sensitive Hunter's sub-forum.  Maybe we could have an Outdoors Poetry section.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

Four said:


> Funny, when i saw the thread title i assumed it was referring to traditional blood sport, roman style... the modern equivalent would be boxing, or MMA..
> 
> From a moral perspective, if it's voluntary between two people, its not immoral. One could argue that an increase in this type of blood-sport is a bad signal for the society.. but still moral.
> 
> As for hunting, the kill makes up less than 1% of the experience. If someone wanted to kill for the thrill, there are easier ways to do it. Tracking, planning, planting food plots, hanging out at the cabin, talking hunting with your buddies, sitting in the woods, etc... that's what's to be appreciated more.



That's Jean Claude VanDamme's definition.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2012)

lol    funny you should bring this up.    I have this conversation regularly.    I became a vegan about two years ago, (I can entertain all your "i'm a real man, I have to eat meat" arguments some other time lol   2 of 3 people die everyday from what they eat during their lifetime) despite my love for hunting.   Someone couldn't believe that I loved hunting but didn't eat meat.    BTW, God Himself (for those who believe) killed the first animal.   

I'd venture to say that few of you hunt just to get meat.   For me, it's 'spiritual' being out there.   Where I hunt (in good ole Dooly county) my son and I could shoot every time we go out....but we don't.    We enjoy the challenge of waiting out a trophy.   I have more than enough friends and family that are willing to take the venison....and I must admit, I 'celebrate' occasionally with some good ole grilled backstrap.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    funny you should bring this up.    I have this conversation regularly.    I became a vegan about two years ago, (I can entertain all your "i'm a real man, I have to eat meat" arguments some other time lol   2 of 3 people die everyday from what they eat during their lifetime) despite my love for hunting.   Someone couldn't believe that I loved hunting but didn't eat meat.    BTW, God Himself (for those who believe) killed the first animal.
> 
> I'd venture to say that few of you hunt just to get meat.   For me, it's 'spiritual' being out there.   Where I hunt (in good ole Dooly county) my son and I could shoot every time we go out....but we don't.    We enjoy the challenge of waiting out a trophy.   I have more than enough friends and family that are willing to take the venison....and I must admit, I 'celebrate' occasionally with some good ole grilled backstrap.



I knew there was something kooky about you that I liked.

Wow.  Now I really feel bad for how much you paid for that elk meat.  Magnificent animal, by the way.  I prefer elk to white tail and the best I've had so far is moose.  I hear caribou is good.  I'd like to try some one day, that and zebra.

I believe the information about the health benefits of eating wild game.  It's good and good for you (in moderation. I gots da gout).  Trying to get it doesn't make sense fiscally so when I try to get it, it's really for fun anymore.  That and an ego boost.

You just go to show that 'it takes all kinds'.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I believe the information about the health benefits of eating wild game.  It's good and good for you (in moderation. I gots da gout).




As long as heart disease and diabetes rule I think I'll stick with eating weeds.   

I have not cooked one piece of the elk I got!  lol    cost too much.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> As long as heart disease and diabetes rule I think I'll stick with eating weeds.



Stay healthy.



BANDERSNATCH said:


> I have not cooked one piece of the elk I got!  lol    cost too much.



You should have it embalmed, like those Chinese prisoners, so that you can look at it forever.


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## gemcgrew (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I feel more manly defeating another human being than a stupid deer.  They don't seem so wiley when i watch them  stomping and blowing through my scope.


I hear you. I quit deer hunting years ago. Just wasn't much of a challenge anymore. My wife and I enjoy rabbit hunting with our beagles, but it is more about them than us.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I hear you. I quit deer hunting years ago. Just wasn't much of a challenge anymore. My wife and I enjoy rabbit hunting with our beagles, but it is more about them than us.



There's nothing like hitting a running rabbit or a dove or quail, and they're all delicious.  But it's for fun, not meat (the meat is a bonus; a small messy bonus).  These issues are complicated when one doesn't use a guide to instruct.


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## JB0704 (Nov 13, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Just wasn't much of a challenge anymore.



I can tell that you....



gemcgrew said:


> quit deer hunting years ago.



Things have changed quite a bit in the last 10 years.


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## pnome (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Every year around this time I examine my personal morals about hunting.  Anybody else?



I've made it so that my Karma is still weighed on the good side.

I am now a "Hunt'n'Fish'etarian"

(which, with how bad of a hunter I am, means that I am basically a vegetarian)


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I can tell that you....
> 
> 
> 
> Things have changed quite a bit in the last 10 years.



I just thought I was becoming a suckier hunter.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

pnome said:


> I've made it so that my Karma is still weighed on the good side.
> 
> I am now a "Hunt'n'Fish'etarian"
> 
> (which, with how bad of a hunter I am, means that I am basically a vegetarian)



I did that for 3 years, following a 2 year stint as a vegan.  Once I wrapped my head around the killin part, it seemed OK to let someone else do it for me.  That, unfortunately re-opened the door to Chicken McNuggets.


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## JB0704 (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I just thought I was becoming a suckier hunter.



According to some of the "deer slayers" a few floors up, we may be.


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## JB0704 (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I did that for 3 years, following a 2 year stint as a vegan.  Once I wrapped my head around the killin part, it seemed OK to let someone else do it for me.  That, unfortunately re-opened the door to Chicken McNuggets.



Dinner has to have meat at the JB0704 household.  As does lunch and breakfast.  I try to make it as wild and free-ranging as possible....but sometimes it just doesn't work out.

I've been buying a lot of beef and chicken these last few years.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Dinner has to have meat at the JB0704 household.  As does lunch and breakfast.  I try to make it as wild and free-ranging as possible....but sometimes it just doesn't work out.
> 
> I've been buying a lot of beef and chicken these last few years.



Chickens are super cheap.  We eat alot of them.  The other night I grilled a  $6 Kroger hen.  It was a pretty big one and I seasoned it with jerk marinade.  It was delicious.  Then, while eating a thigh I noticed the fat had a jelly like, creamy/gritty appearance and feel. It didn't look right.  I ate it (we waste nothing) but I worry about feeding that stuff to my daughter.  


Perhaps there are 'other costs' in $0.89/lb. chickens.....


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## JB0704 (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Chickens are super cheap.  We eat alot of them.  The other night I grilled a  $6 Kroger hen.  It was a pretty big one and I seasoned it with jerk marinade.  It was delicious.  Then, while eating a thigh I noticed the fat had a jelly like, creamy/gritty appearance and feel. It didn't look right.  I ate it (we waste nothing) but I worry about feeding that stuff to my daughter.
> 
> 
> Perhaps there are 'other costs' in $0.89/lb. chickens.....



Every time I crank up my smoker I toss a few of those whole chickens on it.  That is the cheapest meat around.  Not sure what that substance you saw was, but I do try and trim as much fat / junk off as I can.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 13, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I/we hunt and use as much venison as possible. We eat all edible game. I figure that if we take the animals life we will use the resources it provides. We do give thanks to the animal for what it has provided for us. Deer, bear , turkeys, rabbits, pheasants, grouse, squirrels etc are never taken just for the sake of shooting them.
> Groundhogs, coyotes and crows do not get the same consideration for table fare but I do think keeping those numbers in check help  other wildlife and the farmers livelihoods.



You need to try that groundhog-I've eaten lots of them, and it's better-tasting meat than half the other game you mentioned. 

As for the OP, I don't believe in killing anything without a reason. I eat the meat and use as much of the rest of the animal as I can. I have also killed critters for their hides, or to protect my garden or livestock. I consider taking a life to be a serious thing. Personally, I wouldn't shoot a deer for the sole purpose of mounting a trophy on the wall. But, I was also created as a predator instead of a prey animal, and I also hunt to remind myself of that. We humans try to get too far away from what we really are sometimes, and it's good to remind yourself of your natural role in the order of things now and then. Makes you a better human if you take the time to learn what a human actually is if you strip away the 21st century crap that we are all surrounded with and smothered in.


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## techfire55 (Nov 13, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> You need to try that groundhog-I've eaten lots of them, and it's better-tasting meat than half the other game you mentioned.
> 
> As for the OP, I don't believe in killing anything without a reason. I eat the meat and use as much of the rest of the animal as I can. I have also killed critters for their hides, or to protect my garden or livestock. I consider taking a life to be a serious thing. Personally, I wouldn't shoot a deer for the sole purpose of mounting a trophy on the wall. But, I was also created as a predator instead of a prey animal, and I also hunt to remind myself of that. We humans try to get too far away from what we really are sometimes, and it's good to remind yourself of your natural role in the order of things now and then. Makes you a better human if you take the time to learn what a human actually is if you strip away the 21st century crap that we are all surrounded with and smothered in.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> You need to try that groundhog-I've eaten lots of them, and it's better-tasting meat than half the other game you mentioned.
> 
> As for the OP, I don't believe in killing anything without a reason. I eat the meat and use as much of the rest of the animal as I can. I have also killed critters for their hides, or to protect my garden or livestock. I consider taking a life to be a serious thing. Personally, I wouldn't shoot a deer for the sole purpose of mounting a trophy on the wall. But, I was also created as a predator instead of a prey animal, and I also hunt to remind myself of that. We humans try to get too far away from what we really are sometimes, and it's good to remind yourself of your natural role in the order of things now and then. Makes you a better human if you take the time to learn what a human actually is if you strip away the 21st century crap that we are all surrounded with and smothered in.




There are animal parts of us; completely natural parts, that are best reigned in.  It's good to recognize them, revel in them and deny them when appropriate.  

There are alot of positive things that come from living in the present.

P.S.  Columbia ground squirrel tastes like duck.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> 2 of 3 people die everyday from what they eat during their lifetime)



I've never seen a vegan or a vegetarian make the guiness book of records for living any longer than meat eaters. Best I can ascertain, when a vegan is dead, he is just as dead as a meat eater, and usually just as soon.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I've never seen a vegan or a vegetarian make the guiness book of records for living any longer than meat eaters. Best I can ascertain, when a vegan is dead, he is just as dead as a meat eater, and usually just as soon.



I don't know any obese vegetarians.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know any obese vegetarians.



I know several with bone degeneration, anemia, replacement joints, and such, though. Most of the vegans I've known have at some point had to start eating at least chicken and fish (ie "fast vegetables" lol) after years of malnutrition wrecked their bodies.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2012)

lol    malnutrition!     amazingly, the vegans I know have been for nearly 20 yrs and look great and have no health issues.    coincidence I'm sure.   lol


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## Four (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know any obese vegetarians.



if we're telling stories.. man i do..

I had a roomate in college named "Amit" he was an Indian guy (tech school). He was HUGE... The guy was a super-nerd, and he had promised his god (hindu) that if he got some certain academic achievement, he would quit eating meat.

So naturally he did get w.e. achievement, so he stopped eating meat... this was all a few years before i met him, he was a senior and i was  sophomore when i met him.

Anyhoo, he would go to taco bell and get like 4 half pound bean & cheese burritos and eat them all in a sitting. His dad owned a convenient store (yea.. i know..) and he constantly ate potato chips throughout the day and drank soda all the time.

ahhh.. he was an interesting guy.


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    malnutrition!     amazingly, the vegans I know have been for nearly 20 yrs and look great and have no health issues.    coincidence I'm sure.   lol



Just going by what I've seen, I'm sure it don't apply to all. But I have worked with several vegetarians/vegans for many years, and they seem to have many more health problems for their age than people with normal, omniverous diets-especially the vegans who eat no dairy products or anything remotely connected to animal protien. The _doctor_ told a couple of them that they needed to eat some meat, not me. I've also known 90-year old, healthy, active people who probably ate three pounds of meat a day. Coincidence, too, I'm sure. Some people are healthy or unhealthy no matter what they eat from simple genetics. 

I believe that our bodies are adapted over hundreds of thousands of years to run best off a mixture of meat, vegetables, fruits/nuts, grains, fish, and such-not all meat or all veggies. There is a difference between healthy eating and the extremes in both directions. Obviously, eating five pounds of bacon a day isn't going to help your health in the long run. Neither is living exclusively off lettuce and chickpeas. Our lazy lifestyles and the preponderance of processed foods and artificially fattened/chemically treated meats are some of or biggest dietary problems nowadays, probably. Moderation in all things is usually a good idea.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    malnutrition!     amazingly, the vegans I know have been for nearly 20 yrs and look great and have no health issues.    coincidence I'm sure.   lol



At my doctor's recommendation, I took L-Lysine and other amino acid supplements while on a vegetarian diet.  I asked him where did they come from and he said "beans, legumes--mostly from meat".



Four said:


> if we're telling stories.. man i do..
> 
> I had a roomate in college named "Amit" he was an Indian guy (tech school). He was HUGE... The guy was a super-nerd, and he had promised his god (hindu) that if he got some certain academic achievement, he would quit eating meat.
> 
> ...



I suppose that would do it.  Mostly all of the 'real' vegetarians I know are pretty health conscious and don't eat that junk.  I think there is lard in the Taco Bell bean burritos.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2012)

Well....the vegans I know are healthy.   Everything they (we) need we get from a plant-based diet.   The only supplement i take is iodine.    As you can see from the elk photo a few months ago, I'm not emaciated, and was in good enough shape to deal with that mountain everyday....short the low oxygen issues.   lol

No matter what you think, all you have to do is look around you and see that heart disease, cancer and diabetes are rampant.    It is scientifically proven that the cultures that eat a primarily plant-based diet have the lowest incidence of disease.   No fighting facts.    

I think all you meat-eaters should eat your meat raw....since if you are meant to eat meat then you should have a desire to run a bunny down in the yard and eat it on the spot.       or....when you grill your meat....don't add any plant-based seasoning.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush....hope you don't mind this thread getting hijacked.   lol


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## NCHillbilly (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Well....the vegans I know are healthy.   Everything they (we) need we get from a plant-based diet.   The only supplement i take is iodine.    As you can see from the elk photo a few months ago, I'm not emaciated, and was in good enough shape to deal with that mountain everyday....short the low oxygen issues.   lol
> 
> No matter what you think, all you have to do is look around you and see that heart disease, cancer and diabetes are rampant.    It is scientifically proven that the cultures that eat a primarily plant-based diet have the lowest incidence of disease.   No fighting facts.    I think all you meat-eaters should eat your meat raw....since if you are meant to eat meat then you should have a desire to run a bunny down in the yard and eat it on the spot.       or....when you grill your meat....don't add any plant-based seasoning.



Most of those cultures are also in countries where they don't have Little Debbie pies, tater chips, McDonalds, and a ton of additives in all their pre-packaged food. They mostly eat stuff straight from the land. And a lot of fish in many of the same places. And there is a big difference in "primarily plant-based" diet and veganism. Veganism is a relatively modern abstract concept that we would not have had the brain capacity to come up with had our distant ancestors not have switched to a meat-rich high-protien diet. We would still be basically gorillas. And I like my steaks pretty much raw, actually. And I like seasonings. I don't have a bit of a problem eating veggies and plants, I like them too. they go well as a side dish to meat.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Nov 13, 2012)

LOL   I read an article not long ago that discussed meat-eating being the reason we are human.   lol    article failed to mention the numerous carnivores that never developed intelligence.   funny...   

I also read somewhere that brain size had something to do with us being human....and advanced.   Gorillas should rule the earth then.  

Those cultures better leave the Western-diet McDonalds, twinkies and little debbies alone....they are killing Americans every day.   I read a study of Japanese women that migrated to America (Im sure you can google it)    Their health began to decline as soon as they switched to the Western diet.    No doubt the diet change took it's toll.     Facts.


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## Four (Nov 13, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I also read somewhere that brain size had something to do with us being human....and advanced.



It does. All the great apes have relatively large brains for mammals. Also, eating meat is something that helped us develop our larger brains.



BANDERSNATCH said:


> Gorillas should rule the earth then.



Gorillas have smaller brains than humans.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

Four said:


> It does. All the great apes have relatively large brains for mammals. Also, eating meat is something that helped us develop our larger brains.
> 
> 
> 
> Gorillas have smaller brains than humans.



Like another part of the anatomy, the most important factor is the number of folds.


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## Egmont Key (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Every year around this time I examine my personal morals about hunting.  Anybody else?



I do as well.  I have been hunting since I was big enough to tote a gun, so you'd think I have it figured out by now.  But, I have not.  I consider myself to be a bit of a pacifist, so why do I enjoy hunting/fishing?  Considering the opportunity costs (and real costs) involved, there is certainly no economic benefit.  So is it just the killing of another animal that is exciting?  Am I really so destructive?

I can confidently say that nearly all of my enjoyment of hunting and fishing derives from just sitting out in nature.  Whether its freezing to death 20 feet up a tree, or being 50 miles offshore in rough seas, I am just so relieved to be away from the sensory overload of cities.  

But, what about the rest of my enjoyment?  Why do I get such a thrill when spotting a big buck, or the sound of a king mackerel almost spooling me?  I seem to have less difficulty accepting why I like fishing, even if it most often results in a similar outcome.  That is, the death of a fellow animal at my hands.  Why is that?  Most people would agree that fishing is "less wrong" morally....but why?  Too distant of an evolutionary relative?  How about bird hunting then?  Is that worse?  Apparently not much worse because most non-hunters I speak with can accept this without looking at me as a barbarian.  But soon as I mention deer hunting...  a look of disgust fills their eyes.  What can I say, deer have good PR.

As shameful as it is for me to admit, maybe my slight hesitation to deer hunting is as simple and ridiculous as watching Bambi as a child?  Is it because they are beautiful animals?  Is it because they are a fellow mammal with similar physiology?  Or is it just a social pressure because I don't like the way non-hunters look at me?  I really have no idea what the true answer is, most likely it is "all of the above".  So many factors are at play.  But right at that split second I have confirmed that I have "humanely" taken another animals life, my entire mental state goes from one of immense excitement leading up to the kill, to....responsibility and almost sadness upon the confirmation.  Pretty much sticks with me (in varying degrees) until I put the deer/bird/fish in the freezer.

Although I have yet to put this question to rest in my mind, I feel that the dissonance within my thoughts might be a good thing.  I'd much rather have this inward discussion than be the type of person who kills without a second thought.  I've been with people who hoot and holler and play around with wounded animals.  That always creeps me out.  There's also the people who eat meat every day, yet have not even once mentally acknowledged the fact that their diet has led to the death of a cow/chicken/whatever.  Ironically, these are often the people looking at me with disdain upon finding out I hunt deer.


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## drippin' rock (Nov 13, 2012)

I have been plant-based for nearly 2 years now.  I still hunted after I quit eating meat(no meat, no dairy), but the desire to hunt went away, so I quit.  I did a little trout fishing earlier this year, caught 7, cleaned them and gave them away.  I figure when I get my weight and other numbers where I want, IF I allow any meat back into my diet it will be fresh caught trout once or twice a year.

I grew up hunting and fishing, and am glad I did.  I can kill and clean any animal and would again if my or my families' existence depended on such a skill.


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## drippin' rock (Nov 13, 2012)

Egmont Key said:


> I do as well.  I have been hunting since I was big enough to tote a gun, so you'd think I have it figured out by now.  But, I have not.  I consider myself to be a bit of a pacifist, so why do I enjoy hunting/fishing?  Considering the opportunity costs (and real costs) involved, there is certainly no economic benefit.  So is it just the killing of another animal that is exciting?  Am I really so destructive?
> 
> I can confidently say that nearly all of my enjoyment of hunting and fishing derives from just sitting out in nature.  Whether its freezing to death 20 feet up a tree, or being 50 miles offshore in rough seas, I am just so relieved to be away from the sensory overload of cities.
> 
> ...



Good post!  

I can say I believe after many years of hunting and taking wildlife, I am more empathetic than some.  I believe that empathy made it easier for me to give up meat.  I have killed many deer, but the ones that got me were the deer that died within site.  Watching the death often made me question what I was doing, although I pushed that thought back and kept on hunting.  After I quit consuming flesh, it just seemed pointless to continue to take life.  Will it be this way the rest of my life?  I have no idea..... we'll see.


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## dawg2 (Nov 13, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know any obese vegetarians.



I do.  I worked for one years ago.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 13, 2012)

Most vegans are healthy because they study foods and are more health conscience. Most don't eat chips & sodas as the guy Four knew. Since most people are meat eaters that puts a lot of non-health conscience into our group. Overeating, no exercise, and eating junk food as a substitute for real food is worse than eating meat. Eating the wrong kinds of meat loaded with antibiotics isn't healthy. Eating plant based trans-fatty fats & oils like Crisco and margarine is far worse than saturated fats like lard or coconut oil. Mono-saturated fats are also healthy. Canola oil is one of the worse fats.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 13, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> Most of those cultures are also in countries where they don't have Little Debbie pies, tater chips, McDonalds, and a ton of additives in all their pre-packaged food. They mostly eat stuff straight from the land. And a lot of fish in many of the same places. And there is a big difference in "primarily plant-based" diet and veganism. Veganism is a relatively modern abstract concept that we would not have had the brain capacity to come up with had our distant ancestors not have switched to a meat-rich high-protien diet. We would still be basically gorillas. And I like my steaks pretty much raw, actually. And I like seasonings. I don't have a bit of a problem eating veggies and plants, I like them too. they go well as a side dish to meat.



I agree we eat way too much processed foods, plant and animal. This is way worse than eating meat. Look at the Blue Regions and longevity.


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## ambush80 (Nov 13, 2012)

Egmont Key said:


> I do as well.  I have been hunting since I was big enough to tote a gun, so you'd think I have it figured out by now.  But, I have not.  I consider myself to be a bit of a pacifist, so why do I enjoy hunting/fishing?  Considering the opportunity costs (and real costs) involved, there is certainly no economic benefit.  So is it just the killing of another animal that is exciting?  Am I really so destructive?
> 
> I can confidently say that nearly all of my enjoyment of hunting and fishing derives from just sitting out in nature.  Whether its freezing to death 20 feet up a tree, or being 50 miles offshore in rough seas, I am just so relieved to be away from the sensory overload of cities.
> 
> ...



Thanks for a great post.  Good to know I'm not the only one.

I admit to being a bit of a speciesist.


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## bullethead (Nov 15, 2012)

NCHillbilly said:


> You need to try that groundhog-I've eaten lots of them, and it's better-tasting meat than half the other game you mentioned.



I have eaten them in a stew, I just don't have the desire or take the time to prepare them myself.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 15, 2012)

Isn't eating plants wrong also? When you eat a plant you are killing life. Please show me the difference? Animals don't have souls. Animals do have brains, minds, and feelings. I think plants do to. The only difference I can come up with is animals have faces. Somehow the face makes people realize a connection we have to animals. Do we also stop killing pest, rodents, bugs in our home? What about plants, animals, and viruses that invade our bodies? I guess it's ok to KILL them because they don't have a face. The fish killing vs animal killing is viewed by me the same as animals vs plants killing.


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## ted_BSR (Nov 16, 2012)

Everytime I kill or eat anything, from a carrot to a deer or a cow, I bow my head and thank the Lord for His blessings of bounty.

The first deer I killed was rather an emotional thing for me. I saw her death, and felt a smidgen of her anguish. An animal (bird, groundhog, deer, cow) should not be taken without the proper respect and thankfulness.

A carrot or beet or ear of corn deserves the same thankfulness.

Thank whomever you like, but be thankful.


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