# Jesus Is...



## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

Anyone have something to add?

By Jeff Rogers:




The New Testament clearly teaches that Jesus:
 --is a greater revelation of the glory of God and is God come in the flesh - John 1:14-18; v. 14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we have seen His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth; Heb. 1:3; 2 Cor 3:12-18 This passage compares the fading glory of Moses with the unfading glory of Christ. It is in and through Christ that we are transformed from glory to glory leading up to our final glorification. (Rom. 8:30)

 --is made in the exact image of the invisible God - Colossians 1:15 He is the express image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. In John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father?'"

 --is the God-man, unique from and greater than all others - Colossians 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form. He is God revealed and seen in the flesh. No aspect of deity is missing.

 --is the preeminent one - Colossians 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place (preeminence, supremacy) in everything. He is the one head of the people of God.

 --is king of kings and lord of lords - 1 Timothy 6:15 which He [Jesus, cf. v. 14] will bring about at the proper time -- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords... He is sovereign on this earth like no other human person.

 --is a greater king than David; a divine and eternal king - Luke 1:31-33; John 1:49; 1 Tim. 6:15; Matt. 12:42

 --is a greater law-giver than Moses - Matt. 5:1-7:29 [See also the verses for prophet]

 --is a greater prophet than Moses, who predicted that a prophet far greater than himself was to come - Deut. 18:15, 18-19 (Mk. 9:2-8 - listen to Him! Do not be building booths for Moses and Elijah!); Heb. 1:1-2; Matt. 12:41; 7:29

 --is the builder of the house in which Moses was faithful, and therefore counted worthy of more glory than Moses - Hebrews 3:1-6

 --is a greater priest than Aaron, an eternal priest after the order of Melchizedek - Heb. 5:1-10; 7:1 - 8:6

 --offers a better sacrifice than any sacrifice found in the law of Moses - Heb. 8:3-10:18

 --inaugurates a better (greater) covenant than Moses did - Heb. 7:22; 8:6;

 --makes a better promise than Moses did - Heb. 8:6

 --gives a better hope than Moses did - Heb. 7:19, cf. 6:18-19.

 --is superior to angels - Heb. 1:4-14; 2:5-9

 --gives a superior rest, an eternal one - Heb. 3:6-11

 --is greater than Solomon in His wisdom - Matt. 12:42

 --is greater than Jonah as a preacher of the gospel of repentance - Matt. 12:41

 --is greater than the temple as an access to the presence of God - Matt. 12:6

 --is Lord even of the Sabbath - Matt. 12:8
http://voices.yahoo.com/jesus-8363143.html?cat=34


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## gordon 2 (Apr 12, 2013)

He is a better teacher than sister Vautour in grade 12 and a better teacher than Rick Warren. He is a better conservative than Ronald Reagan and a better liberal than Abraham Lincoln. His house is greater than....America, England, Lichtenstein, Tibet, Marroco, Hong Kong, Peru, Spain, the turkish pan handle, Egypte,  the salt provinces of India,  and Gibraltar... all put together. However, Canada comes close.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

I am a little surprised by some of the verses. Those showing him to be greater than. For example, why would the Hebrew writer tell us that Jesus was superior to the angels, why would he tell us that he was worthy of more honor than Moses? That should be assumed and need not be stated if the writer believes Jesus to be God. That would be like saying Tiger Woods was better at golf than a new born. That would be like telling me that a jet air plane is faster than a lawn mower?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

The Hebrews verse, chapter 3, does not say that Jesus is the builder of the house, that is only an example. It does however go on to say the he is faithful over God's house


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> --is made in the exact image of the invisible God - Colossians 1:15 He is the express image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. In John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father?'"
> 
> -


Adam was made in God's image but failed to represent that image. Jesus, did represent God in a way that pleased God. He did so well that he was credited with "the exact representation". That is why he can say that if you have seen me you have seen the Father. We are supposed to represent Jesus to the world. If we did, and we fail at this,  If someone says, show me this Jesus, we should be able to say , if you have seen me you have seen Jesus. This would not make us Jesus


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

I thought we were all made in God's image. I thought Jesus was with God from the beginning. 

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

I'm very much like my earthly father, we both think the same on most things. If you have seen me, you have seen my Father. We even favor.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

I especially like King of Kings and Lord of Lords! I always favored that old Gospel song He's my King, also


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## gordon 2 (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> The Hebrews verse, chapter 3, does not say that Jesus is the builder of the house, that is only an example. It does however go on to say the he is faithful over God's house



Interesting.... so... your point...?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm very much like my earthly father, we both think the same on most things. If you have seen me, you have seen my Father. We even favor.


Gen 5, Adam also had a son in his likeness, in his image


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Interesting.... so... your point...?


I see it come up often, so I like to point it out when I see it. The traditional belief is that Jesus builds the house but this verse is not the support for that view


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought we were all made in God's image. I thought Jesus was with God from the beginning.
> 
> 1 Timothy 2:5
> For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
> ...


All those decended from Adam are under the curse of "you will surely die". We are buried with Christ in baptism, being adopted into his family where he is the firstborn of many brothers. OT picture is that the firstborn son was offered up to redeem the remainder of the family. The second or third did not need to redeem himself, it had already been done, finished by the first ...Edit, lost my original thought about God's image, LOL


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## gordon 2 (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I see it come up often, so I like to point it out when I see it. The traditional belief is that Jesus builds the house but this verse is not the support for that view



So Jesus is not the house builder promised to David according to the prophet Nathan. see...  2 ed Samuel 7?


And if Jesus is not this builder.. than what are the implications? Perhaps that Jesus is not God?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

Acts 2:33-36 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.34) For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35)until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."36" Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."

The Lord said to my Lord and God has made Jesus both Lord & Messiah.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

Gr8bldr, the Bible says that God created everything and it also says Jesus created everything. Some people use this as proof they are the same entitiy. Any ideas?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> So Jesus is not the house builder promised to David according to the prophet Nathan. see...  2 ed Samuel 7?
> 
> 
> And if Jesus is not this builder.. than what are the implications? Perhaps that Jesus is not God?


Yes, he is the one to build God's house, but as I pointed out, the particular verse from Heb 3 is not where this comes from. That verse is an example. The verse you pointed out is where this idea comes from


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Acts 2:33-36 Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear.34) For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said, "'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand 35)until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."36" Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah."
> 
> The Lord said to my Lord and God has made Jesus both Lord & Messiah.


Notice that in the greek we have 2 different words for Lord. But our translations render 2 different words the same. It causes much confussion. We know that if the original writer had meant the same word, he would have used the same word. Also, on another note. We see Lord and master used all over the NT, but what is interesting is that it is the same greek word. The different renderings in our modern translations of Lord and master are simply left up to the translators


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Gr8bldr, the Bible says that God created everyhing and it also says Jesus created everything. Some people use this as proof they are the same entitiy. Any ideas?


I would like to study through this with you. Even if I were trinitarian, I would have no need to try to force Jesus to be the creator.But tradition has it that way so people insist on it. And the changing of scripture to fit the doctrine has taken place. Take Col 1:16 for example.The corruption is clearly seen. "For all things were created by him..." The word here incorrectly translated as by is "ev". This should be rendered as "in", context can be seen in Eph 2:10, For we are Go'ds workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do." Back to the Col verse, in the same breath, same verse, our modern translations translate "ev" two different ways. There is no way that the original writer spoke the same word in the same sentence and meant it 2 different ways. We can also verify by a concordance that it is never translated this way eslewhere and we can also verify the correct use of ev for a hundred other places. I used to think that this was forcing the book to say you believed but I now consider it corruption. The other so called Jesus created verses are much the same


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

"By" implies creator, "in" implies agent


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I would like to study through this with you. Even if I were trinitarian, I would have no need to try to force Jesus to be the creator.But tradition has it that way so people insist on it. And the changing of scripture to fit the doctrine has taken place. Take Col 1:16 for example.The corruption is clearly seen. "For all things were created by him..." The word here incorrectly translated as by is "ev". This should be rendered as "in", context can be seen in Eph 2:10, For we are Go'ds workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do." Back to the Col verse, in the same breath, same verse, our modern translations translate "ev" two different ways. There is no way that the original writer spoke the same word in the same sentence and meant it 2 different ways. We can also verify by a concordance that it is never translated this way eslewhere and we can also verify the correct use of ev for a hundred other places. I used to think that this was forcing the book to say you believed but I now consider it corruption. The other so called Jesus created verses are much the same



I will ponder that, even a trinitarian would have to wonder how God turned over the creation to his son.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I will ponder that, even a trinitarian would have to wonder how God turned over the creation to his son.


The aspect of the agent of the new creation is very much misunderstood


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Another wrong rendering easy to see. Heb 1:2 and 11:3. "through whom he made the world/universe" 9 other times it is translated correctly as "ages". The NIV's use of "world" is mere corruption. 261 times the word world is correctly translated in the NIV, but only these 2 times is it the same greek word used for ages. Can you see how those who translated our bibles made it say what they wanted it to say based on their own tradition and not proper translating


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Another wrong rendering easy to see. Heb 1:2 and 11:3. "through whom he made the world/universe" 9 other times it is translated correctly as "ages". The NIV's use of "world" is mere corruption. 261 times the word world is correctly translated in the NIV, but only these 2 times is it the same greek word used for ages. Can you see how those who translated our bibles made it say what they wanted it to say based on their own tradition and not proper translating


The 11;3 verse, formed is wrong. We know God made, formed the universe or the proper word ages, but he did not form the world through Jesus. He "framed the ages", see here what a trin greek scholar says, Thayer,
The word is framed and according to Thayer means this:
katartizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete
1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair
1a1) to complete
1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust
1b1) to fit or frame for one’s self, prepare
1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be, end quote.


 As you can see, it is for sure not "formed", revealing that it is not speaking about original creation
..


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr  This is a thread named Jesus is... You got anything to add to that would be nice, or you could start a thread named Jesus isnt, (in the aaa forum ofcourse)..Thanks


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> 1gr8bldr  This is a thread named Jesus is... You got anything to add to that would be nice, or you could start a thread named Jesus isnt, (in the aaa forum ofcourse)..Thanks


Sorry to derail your thread. I do consider Jesus is, second only to God. A high Christology in my opinion but not by definition of high Christology


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> 1gr8bldr  This is a thread named Jesus is... You got anything to add to that would be nice, or you could start a thread named Jesus isnt, (in the aaa forum ofcourse)..Thanks



Why would that have to be on the AAA forum?
Are you only looking for beliefs the same as yours?

Let me start: Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Jesus was resurrected by God his Father. Jesus ascended into Heaven in a Glorified body and is sitting next to God his Father as we speak. Jesus the Son of God will return to earth one day to get us and take us to Heaven with him in our glorified bodies.

If I believe that, doesn't the Bible tell me I'll go to Heaven? Wouldn't learning and interpreting various concepts be considered a "works?"
If you were to witness and teach a native in a foreign land that Jesus died for their sins and they then accepted Jesus as their personal savior, would not that person be saved or would they have to learn the whole Bible first and interpret it the way you believe.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would that have to be on the AAA forum?
> Are you only looking for beliefs the same as yours?
> 
> "


It was an attempt at humor which Im really bad at.I thought the little smiley faces would have shown that.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> It was an attempt at humor which Im really bad at.I thought the little smiley faces would have shown that.



My apology.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> The 11;3 verse, formed is wrong. We know God made, formed the universe or the proper word ages, but he did not form the world through Jesus. He "framed the ages", see here what a trin greek scholar says, Thayer,
> The word is framed and according to Thayer means this:
> katartizō
> Thayer Definition:
> ...



It is bad that we have to use all the various interpretations to Greek and from Greek. I don't like it when they use the same word in English for five words in Hebrew or Greek  to mean the same thing. If it meant the same thing in Hebrew or Greek, then they would have used the same word.
Back to creation, God created the world but framed it for Jesus?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry to derail your thread. I do consider Jesus is, second only to God. A high Christology in my opinion but not by definition of high Christology



You're not derailing...I was just giving you a hard time in a friendly way as we do on job-sites.
 I believe in one God though. The Father,The Son, and The Holy Spirit....That is a different debate though...Jesus is our savior,redeamer, mediator,healer,teacher...but most of all..Jesus Is!


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> It is bad that we have to use all the various interpretations to Greek and from Greek. I don't like it when they use the same word in English for five words in Hebrew or Greek  to mean the same thing. If it meant the same thing in Hebrew or Greek, then they would have used the same word.
> Back to creation, God created the world but framed it for Jesus?


Framed it for Jesus is not quite right, looking through the defs of thayer, adjusted seems better. The bible speaks of ages, the age of before the law, the present age and the age to come. The age we are in now came through Jesus as mediator of a better cov. The law came through Moses, grace and truth through Jesus. Jesus is the agent of the new creation.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> You're not derailing...I was just giving you a hard time in a friendly way as we do on job-sites.
> I believe in one God though. The Father,The Son, and The Holy Spirit....That is a different debate though...Jesus is our savior,redeamer, mediator,healer,teacher...but most of all..Jesus Is!


I appreciate the fact that we can disagree with each other and still be respectful towards one another. That is not typical for religion and politics


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I appreciate the fact that we can disagree with each other and still be respectful towards one another. That is not typical for religion and politics



Me too. It took me a long time before I realized not everyone could be right about everything, and even a longer time to realize I too fit into that category.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Me too. It took me a long time before I realized not everyone could be right about everything, and even a longer time to realize I too fit into that category.



I think Boots took you the wrong way or either had to leave town as he never came back to defend his "commandment keeping." If you do believe something different from most you do tend to get a little hot under the collar sometimes.

I just left a job today where the plumbers were giving the electricians a hard time who were giving the super a hard time. My wife thinks our bickering is childish. Whatever you do, don't let them see that they can "get your goat."
I think you fit in well here.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> You're not derailing...I was just giving you a hard time in a friendly way as we do on job-sites.
> I believe in one God though. The Father,The Son, and The Holy Spirit....That is a different debate though...Jesus is our savior,redeamer, mediator,healer,teacher...but most of all..Jesus Is!



I feel so strongly about "Jesus is" that I don't believe there is any other way to meet the Father, who happens to be God. Jesus taught "the Kingdom of God." I can't see any other path of anyone ever meeting the Father(God), if they don't believe Jesus is their mediator. Jesus is important, but what he taught about his Father is even more important. He knew the difference. He gave examples about the differences between him and his Father. Jesus doesn't even know when he will return. Jesus knows that his Father is way greater than he is. Jesus knows his Father is Good and God.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “God’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.

Amen to the superiority  of God and to  anointing Jesus as our Savior. Amen to God for giving the authority to Jesus to be our mediator. Amen to Jesus for fulfilling his part of my salvation.

John 19:11 Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

Thank you God for your sacrifice and power over all.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 12, 2013)

I think these verses fit well here. Jesus is the Son of God. It is a simple concept. Father, only son, authority, greater than, mediator between. Simplicity, simple things we all understand as is Christ.
Trinity, complex, nobody really understands, another Jesus. If the Catholic Church got it wrong on "works salvation", isn't it possible they got it wrong on the Trinity? Corrupted from the SIMPLICITY?

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Boots took you the wrong way or either had to leave town as he never came back to defend his "commandment keeping." If you do believe something different from most you do tend to get a little hot under the collar sometimes.



I feel bad for baby Christians that get prayed upon soon as they are born.The devil seems to jump right on them and decieve and confuse them.Because Jesus is grace...Moses law isn't.Boot kept making wild accusations and it was easy to detect that he had been manipulated.I was simply trying to engage him in the word and get him to read for himself instead of repeat what had been told to him.I hope he comes back, but there is no way he can explain his beliefs(someone forced doctrine) and support the scripture I gave him.If I was ruffled at all in that exchange it was in the guy that's been leading this newly saved Christian astray, not at him.



Artfuldodger said:


> I just left a job today where the plumbers were giving the electricians a hard time who were giving the super a hard time. My wife thinks our bickering is childish. Whatever you do, don't let them see that they can "get your goat."
> I think you fit in well here.



I dont like giving out too much personal info, but Im a non-restricted conditioned air license holder, and have done hvac/refrigeration, and electrical work all my life.Some of my first memories are sitting in my dads van playing with and pretending those red b-caps were rockets.I grew up on construction sites and my whole family has been in the construction business, and now I find myself married to a wonderful woman that owns a contruction business with her two brothers----not my place of employment though--- I know how friends give friends a hard time... 
All in all though, we have to answer for ourselves, and whatever we have that we call salvation we must be prepared to take it to the grave with us, because it is the only thing we get to take.In the meantime Im going to throw my hands in the air and place my knees on the ground to worship a greater Jesus, because Jesus Is!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 13, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I feel bad for baby Christians that get prayed upon soon as they are born.The devil seems to jump right on them and decieve and confuse them.Because Jesus is grace...Moses law isn't.Boot kept making wild accusations and it was easy to detect that he had been manipulated.I was simply trying to engage him in the word and get him to read for himself instead of repeat what had been told to him.I hope he comes back, but there is no way he can explain his beliefs(someone forced doctrine) and support the scripture I gave him.If I was ruffled at all in that exchange it was in the guy that's been leading this newly saved Christian astray, not at him.



That is more or less what Boot said he did. He quit listening to others and went on a quest to find the truth himself. He didn't say he was even in a particular denomination at this time. I don't think he is listening to just one man. He's not the only Christian who believes in Sabbath keeping or commandment keeping. Not too long ago commandment keeping was a big part of religion in the good old USA. We placed the 10 commandments everywhere. People were not too sure of their salvation either. They would put stuff in their wills and on their tombstones explaining this. Looking at old wills and tombstones doing Genealogy, they were unsure of where their souls might go when they died.
I was even taught to be unsure as a little child by the following prayer:

Now I lay me down to sleep,
I pray the Lord my soul to keep,
If I shall die before I wake,
I pray the Lord my soul to take. Amen.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 13, 2013)

More by Jeff Rogers:


JESUS OUR GREAT PROPHET

Ye Have Heard it Said, by Them of Old...But I Say Unto You!



The Old Covenant had three main offices that were filled with God's man. There was the office of Prophet. This office was initially filled by Moses, and then various other lesser prophets were called throughout the history of Israel as God saw the need.

Then there was the Priest. Aaron, Moses brother was the first to fill this office and he was the proto-type of all priests who came after him. And lastly there was the office of King. This office was a reluctant addition that came much later in Israel's history after Israel got tired of being delivered by the different prophets as portrayed in the book of Judges. They then demanded of Samuel, the current prophet of that day, that God would grant them a king and make them like all the other surrounding nations.
Each of these offices was a type of the Messiah who would come later

In the New Covenant, Jesus is our King, he is our High Priest, and he is our prophet. This foreshadowing was not very subtle and was clearly prophesied by Moses himself.

"The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;" Deuteronomy 18:15

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:18-19

Moses promised that another prophet would be raised up by God and that if Israel would not obey (hearken) His word that that person would answer personally to God. This is a clear prophecy of Christ. Jesus is that prophet that God has sent.

When Jesus began his public ministry he went right to work offending the Jewish leaders. They were so offended that they wanted to put him to death. But the people (the multitude) recognized that he was a prophet and the leaders feared the multitude so the left him alone for a while.

"And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet." Matthew 14:5

"And the multitude said, This is Jesus the prophet of Nazareth of Galilee." Matthew 21:11
"But when they sought to lay hands on him, they feared the multitude, because they took him for a prophet." Matthew 21:46

"And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:" Luke 24:19

Even the Samaritan women who met Jesus at the well recognized that He was the prophet who was to come.

"The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet." John 4:19

In the Sermon on the Mount in Matthew chapter 5, Jesus began a series of teaching on the Old Covenant scriptures. He began by stating what Moses originally said.

"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time"

At least five times Jesus began his point by stating what has been said, and each time it is a clear reference to what Moses said in his role a prophet. He then went on to elaborate on each of the stated subjects beginning with the phrase:

"But I say unto you."

Included in his teachings were the themes:
---Thou shalt not kill (Moses) / Don't be angry with your brother (Jesus)
---Thou shalt not commit Adultery (Moses) / Look not on a women in lust (Jesus)
---Divorce must give a writing of divorcement (Moses) / No divorce except for adultery (Jesus)
---If you swear an oath-perform it (Moses) / Don't swear oaths, let your yea be yea and your nay be nay (Jesus)
---An eye for an eye; a tooth for a tooth (Moses) / Resist evil-turn the other cheek (Jesus)

So here we have Jesus taking the words of the preeminent Old Covenant prophet, Moses, and raising the bar on each of these statements. Jesus is here giving notice that he is that prophet that is greater than Moses. So every word of Christ is to us in the New Covenant, the word of our great prophet.
Shortly after the Day of Pentecost in Acts chapter three we see Peter declaring that what Moses prophesied in Deuteronomy chapter 18 has now come to pass and is fulfilled.

"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." Acts 3:22-23

Peter begins by quoting the passage of Moses from Deuteronomy 18 and then declares that every soul that will not hear (obey) Him will be destroyed. He had previously declared that the Jews as a people had already murdered this New Covenant prophet that God had raised up.

"But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; and killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses." Acts 3:14-15

Peter is declaring that this prophet who God promised through the prophecy of Moses has come and you have killed Him, but do not worry, God raised Him from the dead and you still have the opportunity to obey Him. You can obey Him by repenting.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;" Acts 3:19

Then later in the book of Acts, Stephen is preaching to the council of Jewish leaders in chapter 7.
"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear." Acts 7:37

And again, God is making it clear that this Jesus is our New Covenant prophet and we must obey Him. To reject Him is to leave your soul in peril. God has now spoken directly to us by way of His Son Jesus. It is the role of the prophet of God to carry God's message to His People. The writer of Hebrews tells us that this is what Jesus did.

"God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;" Hebrews 1:1-2

So now we are in the New Covenant and we are called to be obedient to our New Covenant prophet. We no more would go back to Moses as our prophet as we would go back to Aaron and his animal sacrifice for our priestly needs. Jesus has fulfilled the type and the shadow that Moses was as prophet, and we are now free from the mosaic word and we are called now to obey the Royal Law, the Law of Liberty, the Law of Christ.

"And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me." Luke 24:44

"Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found HIM, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph." John 1:45

"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." John 5:46

http://voices.yahoo.com/jesus-our-great-prophet-9028021.html?cat=37


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 14, 2013)

Heb 3:1, "therefore holy brothers, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess." Strage verse considering the modern belief. Modern belief is that we confess he is God


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Heb 3:1, "therefore holy brothers, fix your thoughts on Jesus, the apostle and high priest whom we confess." Strage verse considering the modern belief. Modern belief is that we confess he is God



I disagree with your premise that its a modern belief to understand that The Son is God.That aside, I wonder, do you believe in the virgin birth? Since you don't believe the Son is God do you believe He is a God, and lastly if you don't believe Jesus the Son is God do you think we shouldn't worship Him?..Just wondering thanks.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

I think me and 1gr8bldr are the only two forum members who don't believe Jesus is God. His beliefs are different from mine. I believe Jesus is the actual Son of God. I believe God is the actual father of Jesus. I do not believe that he is God himself. Jesus being the Son of God will have a lot of the same traits as God. I don't know how to explain his diety. I guess it's how the Catholic explain Mary, not that she is in the "chain of command" so to speak. Jesus is above and more important than the Angels and Moses. 
I do not believe my salvation rest on Jesus being God. My salvation rest on the grace of God and upon Jesus dying for my sins.

When I get to Heaven, I'll see God and right next to him is Son Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 
John 14:10
, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “God’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I disagree with your premise that its a modern belief to understand that The Son is God.That aside, I wonder, do you believe in the virgin birth? Since you don't believe the Son is God do you believe He is a God, and lastly if you don't believe Jesus the Son is God do you think we shouldn't worship Him?..Just wondering thanks.


I believe that Jesus is God's son by adoption, at his baptismal, confirmed to those that followed him by his resurection. That if he was not Joseph's son then he is disqualified from being of the house of David. Some like to think that Lukes genology tells that of Mary because it differs but no where does it say "daughter of". I realize this to be very controversal being that it goes against Luke's and Matthew's gospel


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 14, 2013)

I think I will step out of this one. It just crossed my mind that I am not in the usual Apollogetics forum. I would not want to lead anyone astray.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

We can get back on topic of "Jesus is"

Jesus the Son of God was not of this world but had been sent into the world. 
The Spirit is power and God had anointed Jesus with his God and Father's Holy Spirit at the Jordan River.
Jesus had a God, his real Father. 
Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of the Living God."
He is our Mediator between us and God.  He died on the cross for our sins. He was a great teacher, he taught the Kingdom of God. He healed sick people, he forgave people of their sins.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> We can get back on topic of "Jesus is"
> 
> Jesus the Son of God was not of this world but had been sent into the world.
> The Spirit is power and God had anointed Jesus with his God and Father's Holy Spirit at the Jordan River.
> ...



Before Jesus was born in the flesh...what status do you suppose He held?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Before Jesus was born in the flesh...what status do you suppose He held?



I don't have I all figured out myself but I would say the same as you and me. God's plan was figured out before anything else happened. Jesus was in God's plan from the beginning.

2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.  
04-12-2013 10:18 PM 


It is way more simple an easier for me to understand that the Trinity. I don't know why God lead me to abandon the Catholic concepts. Maybe to have a better understanding of the simple salvation I now have.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 14, 2013)

Issac is called Abraham's firstborn son, yet we know that it was Ishmael. How come? Cause God promised Issac before Ishmael. OT saints considered God's word as already done. You might even say, And the word became flesh [when Sarah was 100] and dwelt among us. Issac could also say "before Ishmael, I am"


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know why God lead me to abandon the Catholic concepts. Maybe to have a better understanding of the simple salvation I now have.



Why does this keep coming up? Not necessarily by you, but Ive noticed when people break away from common beliefs they blame Catholic concepts.
What do Catholic concepts have to do with all of Christianity?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Why does this keep coming up? Not necessarily by you, but Ive noticed when people break away from common beliefs they blame Catholic concepts.
> What do Catholic concepts have to do with all of Christianity?



I think it's because the Protestant faith came from the Catholic faith.
The Early Church was around for about 300 years and was a lot of Jews and Gentiles together. This Early Church held various beliefs about Jesus and his divinity. The Catholic Church evolved from this Early Church so that at the Council of Nicaea they all agreed that Jesus was in fact God. 
The Protestants broke away because they didn't follow all of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. They were looking for simplicity in Christ.

I wouldn't say I'm blaming anyone. I just started reading the Bible with an open heart. Believe me it wasn't easy with my Trinity background. I was born into the Baptist faith. I wouldn't purposely want the pain, ridicule, and suffering I've received because of changing my views on the Trinity. I wouldn't even say I changed my views, I just came out of the closet. 
I have a link to a man that actually learned more about the Trinity so that he would have ammunition against the Jehovah Witnesses only to stop believing in it himself. Here is the link if you dare read it without your Trinitarian glasses. Even he says, don't take his word for it. Most Christians do believe in the Trinity.
He knows a lot more about it than I do and no one came to me with this belief as a witness, I went searching for the truth as lead by the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God.We won't see the Holy spirit in Heaven, just God & Jesus.

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity.html


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it's because the Protestant faith came from the Catholic faith.
> The Early Church was around for about 300 years and was a lot of Jews and Gentiles together. This Early Church held various beliefs about Jesus and his divinity. The Catholic Church evolved from this Early Church so that at the Council of Nicaea they all agreed that Jesus was in fact God.
> The Protestants broke away because they didn't follow all of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. They were looking for simplicity in Christ.



I see, so people don't have a good understanding of what happened to Christ's church during the forming of the Catholic church, which is actually a merge of liberal Christians and pagans, along with a government.I see need here for a new thread , got to go dust off some old books.thanks.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I see, so people don't have a good understanding of what happened to Christ's church during the forming of the Catholic church, which is actually a merge of liberal Christians and pagans, along with a government.I see need here for a new thread , got to go dust off some old books.thanks.



Just wanted to add that after the Catholic Church formed I don't believe there were too many other Churches around. By the time of Martin Luther's life, the Catholic Church was the Church. It still plays an important part of religion and government.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 14, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Just wanted to add that after the Catholic Church formed I don't believe there were too many other Churches around. By the time of Martin Luther's life, the Catholic Church was the Church. It still plays an important part of religion and government.



I know....ever wonder where the Baptist come from? They aren't protestant.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I know....ever wonder where the Baptist come from? They aren't protestant.



Because they came from "the Church of England" or "Anabaptist" neither of whom are considered Protestant? 
I didn't know that but just read it, interesting history.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

One more thought to ponder as we discuss the Christian topics concerning salvation. Most are quick to point that salvation is by the grace of God. Then under the same breath we start to exclude people who believe "works" plays a part of it, people who don't believe Jesus is God, people who do believe Jesus is God, people who are Catholic, Protestant, Mormon, Jehovah Witness, Oneness, Trinitarian, and the one that really gets me: You were baptized the wrong way.
You weren't baptized in the name of Jesus only. 
Oneness believers are considered Christians by Trinitarians, but  Trinitarians aren't considered Christians by Oneness believers.
I believe salvation is by the grace of God and the sacrifice of his son Jesus, on the cross.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 14, 2013)

Oneness proponent:
"Great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." So says Paul the Apostle in I Timothy 3:16. The one true God manifesting Himself in the flesh is the principle truth of the Christian faith that distinguishes it from the pagan polytheistic religions. 
Trinitarian:
From the first chapter of the Bible to the last, we see the overwhelming testimony of both the oneness of God and the plurality of God. "The Lord our God is one Lord," says Deuteronomy 6, and "There is no God besides Me" the prophet Isaiah insisted. Simultaneously, God said, "Let us make man in our image." Twenty-seven hundred times in Scripture, the word for "God" is "Elohim" which is plural. It is the plural form of "Elohah." In the King James Version, two hundred and thirty-nine times "Elohim" is even translated "gods." 
 Rebuttals

Oneness proponent:
My debate opponent wants to say there are three Gods and one God all at the same time. He mentions the plural words and pronouns for God, but will my debate opponent come right out and say that there are three Gods? Why hold back from the inevitable conclusion to which his doctrine leads? If there's more than one being who are both God and who are not each other, then just admit that there are two or three Gods! Let him bravely step forth and declare polytheism true, and we shall know how far this Trinitarian doctrine will take us into error. Or, else let him appeal to three gods only to try to prove Oneness false, but let Him hold back from consistency and insist that there is one God nonetheless, and he will reveal that his conscience objects to the polytheistic conclusions of the doctrine he professes. What Trinitarian will come right out and admit that there are three Gods? Their consciences object! They cannot be consistent. Is not this inconsistency, this inability to follow the doctrine to what we both would consider a heretical conclusion one more weighty piece of evidence that Oneness is true and the Trinitarian view false? This is powerful evidence for the truth that I am defending today.
Trinitarian:
We must not impose our own definitions upon God's Word, but we must let God define His own terms. The Bible clearly tells us the sense in which Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus prayed that you and I - believers in Jesus - could be one in the same sense that He and the Father are one. That was His prayer. All Christians should one just like Jesus and the Father are one. 

http://rightremedy.org/booklets/368

I would follow the "Oneness" belief before  the "Trinity" belief.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Because they came from "the Church of England" or "Anabaptist" neither of whom are considered Protestant?
> I didn't know that but just read it, interesting history.



Keeping in mind its just a belief system in which through the blood of Christ we are saved by grace and that believers are baptized, and not a race of people that has survived the persecution through the years.The Baptists have split over many other ideas, my wifes family from south Ga. were primitive baptist.I read they broke away from regular baptist over sunday school and music, and if you've ever been to a fundementalist baptist theres a big difference there and first baptist.The list goes on.

On the concept of saved by grace and only believers are baptised, many denominations broke from the Catholic church to return to this belief system, they are typically the protestants.Baptists have kept up the same system of beliefs through different names over the years, the waldenes and as you mentioned the anabaptists.

I used to think that surely there was one denomination out there that had it all just like Christ wanted, but now I realize there are many.Any church that sets Christ as the head, and allows freedom of the Holy Spirit will be a refuge to the lost and dying world.There's so many kinds of churches because there's so many kinds of people, but in the end there's only one God.One Salvation, One Savior, and because Jesus is the head of the church He will save through any obstacle man puts up to whosoever will that comes to Him with a broken heart, and He will be a mediator, the life,the truth, known to that person because Jesus is....and still is today King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Keeping in mind its just a belief system in which through the blood of Christ we are saved by grace and that believers are baptized, and not a race of people that has survived the persecution through the years.The Baptists have split over many other ideas, my wifes family from south Ga. were primitive baptist.I read they broke away from regular baptist over sunday school and music, and if you've ever been to a fundementalist baptist theres a big difference there and first baptist.The list goes on.
> 
> On the concept of saved by grace and only believers are baptised, many denominations broke from the Catholic church to return to this belief system, they are typically the protestants.Baptists have kept up the same system of beliefs through different names over the years, the waldenes and as you mentioned the anabaptists.
> 
> I used to think that surely there was one denomination out there that had it all just like Christ wanted, but now I realize there are many.Any church that sets Christ as the head, and allows freedom of the Holy Spirit will be a refuge to the lost and dying world.There's so many kinds of churches because there's so many kinds of people, but in the end there's only one God.One Salvation, One Savior, and because Jesus is the head of the church He will save through any obstacle man puts up to whosoever will that comes to Him with a broken heart, and He will be a mediator, the life,the truth, known to that person because Jesus is....and still is today King of Kings and Lord of Lords!



Amen to that and I totally agree. It's a good thing grace is of God because with all the spins "man" puts on things, we would never have salvation.


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## StriperAddict (Apr 15, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I am a little surprised by some of the verses. Those showing him to be greater than. For example, why would the Hebrew writer tell us that Jesus was superior to the angels, why would he tell us that he was worthy of more honor than Moses? That should be assumed and need not be stated if the writer believes Jesus to be God. That would be like saying Tiger Woods was better at golf than a new born. That would be like telling me that a jet air plane is faster than a lawn mower?


 
The answer is that the book of Hebrews speaks to non-believing Jews who might understand the need of the "better" & "greater"; Christ the Lord ... !

Especially the New Covenant.  Much of the NT letters (Romans, Galatians, etc, incl. Hebrews) is apologetical.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 15, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> The answer is that the book of Hebrews speaks to non-believing Jews who might understand the need of the "better" & "greater"; Christ the Lord ... !
> 
> Especially the New Covenant.  Much of the NT letters (Romans, Galatians, etc, incl. Hebrews) is apologetical.


I can't buy that. Notice Heb 3:1, "therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus......


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## StriperAddict (Apr 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I used to think that surely there was one denomination out there that had it all just like Christ wanted, but now I realize there are many.Any church that sets Christ as the head, and allows freedom of the Holy Spirit will be a refuge to the lost and dying world.There's so many kinds of churches because there's so many kinds of people, but in the end there's only one God.One Salvation, One Savior, and because Jesus is the head of the church He will save through any obstacle man puts up to whosoever will that comes to Him with a broken heart, and He will be a mediator, the life,the truth, known to that person because Jesus is....and still is today King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


 
Amen indeed!Now let's try this!Putting spaces between sentances!What say you?


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## StriperAddict (Apr 15, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I can't buy that. Notice Heb 3:1, "therefore, holy brothers, who share in the heavenly calling, fix your thoughts on Jesus......


 
The Holy Spirit, who moved the writer of this incredible book, knew it would be part of the greatest 66 volumes in the world, and unto the world (and the Jews) it has been read....


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> The Holy Spirit, who moved the writer of this incredible book, knew it would be part of the greatest 66 volumes in the world, and unto the world (and the Jews) it has been read....



"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16,17)

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)


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## hobbs27 (Apr 15, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Amen indeed!Now let's try this!Putting spaces between sentances!What say you?



Whats a sentance?     

  I will work on it, my wife has complained too, but she had 4 classes of typing in college. Im just a self taught north GA redneck.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2 Timothy 3:16,17)
> 
> "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1 Corinthians 2:14)



Well now we must define "scriptures":

Barnes' Notes on the Bible
All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of "the Scriptures;

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God - This sentence is not well translated; the original πασα γραφη θεοκνευστος ωφιλιμος προς διδασκαλιαν, κ. τ. λ. should be rendered: Every writing Divinely inspired is profitable for doctrine, etc. The particle και, and, is omitted by almost all the versions and many of the fathers, and certainly does not agree well with the text. The apostle is here, beyond all controversy, speaking of the writings of the Old Testament, which, because they came by Divine inspiration, he terms the Holy Scriptures,


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## gemcgrew (Apr 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well now we must define "scriptures":
> 
> Barnes' Notes on the Bible
> All Scripture - This properly refers to the Old Testament, and should not be applied to any part of the New Testament, unless it can be shown that that part was then written, and was included under the general name of "the Scriptures;
> ...



Although I disagree, it is irrelevant to the point I am making. Try to keep up.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Although I disagree, it is irrelevant to the point I am making. Try to keep up.



I can only assume your point is in reference to "Hebrews speaks to non-believing Jews" and you are trying to say the whole Bible is the "Word" therefore we should not say, this is for Jews or this doesn't pertain to me. 
I grew up with the concept that the whole Bible pertained to me and it wasn't until I joined this forum that I learned parts of it didn't pertain to me, especially Hebrews.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 16, 2013)

Jesus came to serve us. He is a servant.
Mark 10:45
For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."


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