# Why did God accept Abel's offering and not Cains??



## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Why did God accept Abel's offering and not Cains??? There was a thread on here dealing with if we are not right in our beliefs, but we are sincere, God will accept it in the end...Why didn't he accept Cains offering???


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## Ronnie T (Jan 18, 2009)

One gave what was his.
The other returned to God what was already God's.
Attitude.  Heart.


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## gacowboy (Jan 18, 2009)

Abel gave the best that he had.
Cain gave just a part of some crops, not the first fruits or the best.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> One gave what was his.
> The other returned to God what was already God's.
> Attitude.  Heart.



  Where do you get that there was a differance in either one of the brothers attitude or heart???

    The animals and the plants of the field both belong to God, no many can give life to either...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

gacowboy said:


> Abel gave the best that he had.
> Cain gave just a part of some crops, not the first fruits or the best.



Cain gave of his first fruits...Gen 4:3-4

3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
KJV

   Notice in vrs 4 the word also...


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## THREEJAYS (Jan 18, 2009)

Just an opinion but scripture says theres no forgivness w/out blood,maybe Cain should have offered an animal sacrifice.I know he was a farmer but I've never seen one that did not also have some animals.Just a thought.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

Perhaps it is because God need not be dependent on man that the offering multiplies.

Melons are generally dumb things, while a three yr old bull has a mind of its own. Also though melons are not without customary apeal, bulls feed the passions.  Bulls have bloodlines. They are  wealth and a prize, a pride that admire, young and old. They are God's poetry.

And besides bedouins are freer than farmers to commune with the Lord. For the farmer his prize is the land to which he can become slave. The prize is not the fruit from it. ( Just ask a farmer looking forward to retirement! For the bedouin on the other hand, the land is his freedom and what dances on it is God's best.

Instead of melon offering, the whole field should have been given to the poor or burned off for wild fruit. A hand full of berries...now that is something to consider. A child's handful of  roadside, ditch picked flower is another.

Perhaps.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps it is because God need not be dependent on man that the offering multiplies.
> 
> Melons are generally dumb things, while a three yr old bull has a mind of its own. Also though melons are not without customary apeal, bulls feed the passions.  Bulls have bloodlines. They are  wealth and a prize, a pride that admire, young and old. They are God's poetry.
> 
> ...



  Do you think Cain was sincere with the gift to God???


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Do you think Cain was sincere with the gift to God???



No. Or, if sincere, did it wrong.

Hebrews 11:4 - "By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain...."

There was something different about the two offerings. Scripture says there that Abel's was offered in Faith and was better because of it. Meaning God must have told them what to offer or gave some sort of clue to them personally (that is not accounted in Genesis) on what or how to sacrifice. Abel did it. Cain did not. Therefore our righteous God accepted the one offered properly and in faith. Cain then chose to not accept the rebuke with sorrow and correction.


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## fivesolas (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> No. Or, if sincere, did it wrong.
> 
> Hebrews 11:4 - "By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain...."
> 
> There was something different about the two offerings. Scripture says there that Abel's was offered in Faith and was better because of it. Meaning God must have told them what to offer or gave some sort of clue to them personally (that is not accounted in Genesis) on what or how to sacrifice. Abel did it. Cain did not. Therefore our righteous God accepted the one offered properly and in faith. Cain then chose to not accept the rebuke with sorrow and correction.



I think you hit the nail on the head with the offering being offered "by faith" which faith here spoken of is saving faith. Abel offered a sacrifice, blood, by faith...which is a type of Christ.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Do you think Cain was sincere with the gift to God???



Perhaps, perhaps not. Farmers are always budgeting on that one good crop yr.

In any case, I have always suspected that this story has a lot to do with the spirituality of the agrarian society vs the jungle or nomade, hunter-gatherer society.

For the hunter-gatherer who is relatively independent compared to the settled folk giving a whole beast to the one true God is saying alot!

For the settled folk, the folk who decided to settle in one place, farm or provide a service in a small village or town the offering to God must be very different to campare with the hunter for example. This fellow( farmer) is bound to work cooperatively compared to Junge Jim for example and a more appropriate offering would have been a loving gesture instead of a squash, I think.

My understanding, although imperfect, stems for the hunch that Eve when she looked back at the snake, and said to Adam let's move, she was really wanting to go back to the old time religion of the jungle with its snake cult, which she knew. Her children were very aware of both Gods. The boy who gave the beast to the God of Eden, knew the real God. The other boy, well he was a little slow, and he gave nuts and grapes, onions and collard, what was routinely offered the Snake God.

This was all remedied when good christians allied their resources and formed Canada.

So I guess what I'm saying is one of the boys knew God, the other did not. It was not that one was sincere or one was not. For example, if I was to offer God an offering today, it would have to be a little more intimate and special than what I would have given him twenty five yrs ago. I think the nomad son, spent more time with Him and that is what made the difference... Perhaps.


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## thedeacon (Jan 18, 2009)

Good question, simple answer. Able did as God commanded. His sacrifice was more excellant because he followed the commands of God. Cain decided he would do it his way. We need to be careful it doesn't work our way. Jesus is the way, the ONLY way.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

So by the answers that have been stated here, I guess we can say that by no means God will justify us in the end if we do not have things exactly right, no one will be justified by "good intent"or sincerity...???


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> So by the answers that have been stated here, I guess we can say that by no means God will justify us in the end if we do not have things exactly right, no one will be justified by "good intent"or sincerity...???



I feel like a posum in a connibear. Let me wiggle out... "a we are justified by our works, cough, cough...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> I feel like a posum in a connibear. Let me wiggle out... "a we are justified by our works, cough, cough...



  Some people think so, I personaly do not "not by works lest anyman should boast", but by Grace through faith..


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Why did God accept Abel's offering and not Cains??? There was a thread on here dealing with if we are not right in our beliefs, but we are sincere, God will accept it in the end...Why didn't he accept Cains offering???




Maybe he should have offered doughnuts


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Maybe he should have offered doughnuts


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> Good question, simple answer. Able did as God commanded. His sacrifice was more excellant because he followed the commands of God. Cain decided he would do it his way. We need to be careful it doesn't work our way. Jesus is the way, the ONLY way.




Which commands would Abel have done that came from God.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Which commands would Abel have done that came from God.



  I wondered that too..where had any laws of sacrifice been given at that time ???


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I wondered that too..where had any laws of sacrifice been given at that time ???



They hadn't.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> They hadn't.



 So how was Cain to know he was doing something that God would'nt accept???


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> So how was Cain to know he was doing something that God would'nt accept???



Good question


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> So how was Cain to know he was doing something that God would'nt accept???



How do you know that God did not personally tell Adam/Eve/Cain/Abel how to sacrifice to him? You suppose he waited until Moses to tell His children that? C'mon, I think we can reason a little better than that.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> How do you know that God did not personally tell Adam/Eve/Cain/Abel how to sacrifice to him? You suppose he waited until Moses to tell His children that? C'mon, I think we can reason a little better than that.



Well I won't even begin to get into the problems with that reasoning.... I'll just say that Cain and Abel didn't give a sacrifice.  They made an offering.  There is a difference... should we open another thread?


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> How do you know that God did not personally tell Adam/Eve/Cain/Abel how to sacrifice to him? You suppose he waited until Moses to tell His children that? C'mon, I think we can reason a little better than that.



 He was a tiller of the field....he offered what he had...Some people on here say if we offer our very best with good intent, that God will accept it even if we are wrong....


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Well I won't even begin to get into the problems with that reasoning.... I'll just say that Cain and Abel didn't give a sacrifice.  They made an offering.  There is a difference... should we open another thread?



Sacrifice is not the word I should have used. I agree with you. Offering is more correct.

Regardless though, Cain did it wrong.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> He was a tiller of the field....he offered what he had...Some people on here say if we offer our very best with good intent, that God will accept it even if we are wrong....



God will not accept good intentions if they are clearly against His will. There is no good reason to defy Him.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Sacrifice is not the word I should have used. I agree with you. Offering is more correct.
> 
> Regardless though, Cain did it wrong.



  What are the laws of offerings that Cain would have broke???


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> What are the laws of offerings that Cain would have broke???



PWalls said we have to assume God just told them directly.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> What are the laws of offerings that Cain would have broke???



I don't have a clue. No one does.

Point remains though that he did. Otherwise, God would have accepted it.

Why do those "laws of offerings" have to be written in the Bible in Moses' time? God literally walked the Earth with Adam and Eve. Do you not think that He could have easily told them how to worship Him directly? Why would those words have to be written down later? He could have told them to offer up to Him a white calf with black spots. Abel did it and Cain didn't.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> PWalls said we have to assume God just told them directly.



So, God could not have told them directly? You assume that He didn't?


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I don't have a clue. No one does.
> 
> Point remains though that he did. Otherwise, God would have accepted it.
> 
> Why do those "laws of offerings" have to be written in the Bible in Moses' time? God literally walked the Earth with Adam and Eve. Do you not think that He could have easily told them how to worship Him directly? Why would those words have to be written down later? He could have told them to offer up to Him a white calf with black spots. Abel did it and Cain didn't.



Well, not to split hairs again, but.... 

Here are the verses in question:

Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 

 Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 

 Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering: 

 Gen 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 


Not really much to go on.  It does look like there is a reason that the scriptures specified that Cain was a farmer and Abel was a shepherd.  From what this scripture DOES say, these were offerings, not sacrifices.

It also doesn't say that Cain's offering wasn't ACCEPTED by God.  It says that it wasn't RESPECTED.  There is a difference.

An 'offering' could be considered a 'gift'.  Perhaps Cain didn't give his offering because he wanted to please God... perhaps he gave it to seem as though he were better than Abel or to get on God's good side.  And perhaps Abel gave his because he wanted to truly show his love or respect of God. And that's why God didn't respect Cain's offering.

I don't know, and neither does anyone else.  Because the fact of the matter is, neither Cain nor Abel nor Abraham nor Adam nor any of the other patriarchs wrote this account down.  It would have been passed down verbally from wherever it started.  Like pretty much the rest of the bible.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> So, God could not have told them directly? You assume that He didn't?



  I do not like " what if's" or assumptions, we can assume anything, but that dosn't mean its correct..


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Well, not to split hairs again, but....
> 
> Here are the verses in question:
> 
> ...



Yep. If all you believe in is the Old Testament, then that is all you have to go on. Which means you have to guess.

However, I also have the New Testament to believe. The passage in Hebrews explains why Abel's offering was accepted. His was made in "faith". Ergo and by process of deduction, we can come to the conclusion that Cain's was not made in "faith" which meant he did his wrong which is why God rejected it.

I don't know what Cain did different from Abel specifically, but taking the Old and New Testament together, we see that Cain did something wrong.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I do not like " what if's" or assumptions, we can assume anything, but that dosn't mean its correct..



OK. So what is your opinion or assumption. I have laid mine out quite clearly and logically to my mind anyways.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Yep. If all you believe in is the Old Testament, then that is all you have to go on. Which means you have to guess.
> 
> However, I also have the New Testament to believe. The passage in Hebrews explains why Abel's offering was accepted. His was made in "faith". Ergo and by process of deduction, we can come to the conclusion that Cain's was not made in "faith" which meant he did his wrong which is why God rejected it.
> 
> ...


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Yep. If all you believe in is the Old Testament, then that is all you have to go on. Which means you have to guess.
> 
> However, I also have the New Testament to believe. The passage in Hebrews explains why Abel's offering was accepted. His was made in "faith". Ergo and by process of deduction, we can come to the conclusion that Cain's was not made in "faith" which meant he did his wrong which is why God rejected it.
> 
> I don't know what Cain did different from Abel specifically, but taking the Old and New Testament together, we see that Cain did something wrong.




Well of course you know I don't believe in the NT, but even using that, it's still not evidence.  The writer of Hebrews was looking at the same verses in Genesis that you are.  They would have to guess as well.  And, in the NT...

Hebrews 11:4 - "By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain...."


The NT called it a sacrifice.... which we just established that it wasn't.  It was an offering.

Incidentally, I'll offer here that the position of the Jews (the original keepers of the Torah) is that the offering wasn't accepted because of the condition in which it was given... meaning the sincerity or intent. Perhaps in their Oral Torah they know something you don't.... a little more light shed on the story?


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Yep. If all you believe in is the Old Testament, then that is all you have to go on. Which means you have to guess.
> 
> However, I also have the New Testament to believe. The passage in Hebrews explains why Abel's offering was accepted. His was made in "faith". Ergo and by process of deduction, we can come to the conclusion that Cain's was not made in "faith" which meant he did his wrong which is why God rejected it.
> 
> I don't know what Cain did different from Abel specifically, but taking the Old and New Testament together, we see that Cain did something wrong.



One more question about the NT verse... what kind of 'faith' would it be talking about?  Obviously Abel and Cain both heard and talked with God directly, what kind of faith would they have needed?


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> PWalls said:
> 
> 
> > Yep. If all you believe in is the Old Testament, then that is all you have to go on. Which means you have to guess.
> ...


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> OK. So what is your opinion or assumption. I have laid mine out quite clearly and logically to my mind anyways.



 I am actully with you on this, my point is that when people think what they are doing is right, and in the eyes of God it really isn't, no matter how sincere they really are...it has to be HIS way....


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Well of course you know I don't believe in the NT, but even using that, it's still not evidence.  The writer of Hebrews was looking at the same verses in Genesis that you are.  They would have to guess as well.  And, in the NT...
> 
> Hebrews 11:4 - "By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain...."
> 
> ...



Actually, the author of the NT was God, so there was no guesswork.

And, I agree, the offering/sacrifice could very easily have been rejected because of the sincerity or intent (I actually hold more to that belief). God looks at the heart and knows our every intent. Abel's was offered in faith. Cain's wasn't.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I am actully with you on this, my point is that when people think what they are doing is right, and in the eyes of God it really isn't, no matter how sincere they really are...it has to be HIS way....



Big AMEN to that one brother. It really is HIS way or the highway.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Actually, the author of the NT was God, so there was no guesswork.



God didn't write Hebrews or any other book of the NT.



> And, I agree, the offering/sacrifice could very easily have been rejected because of the sincerity or intent (I actually hold more to that belief). God looks at the heart and knows our every intent. Abel's was offered in faith. Cain's wasn't.




Faith of what?  Obviously both Cain and Abel conversed with God directly.  What faith would they have needed?


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Big AMEN to that one brother. It really is HIS way or the highway.



Well, based on this part of Genesis, no one knows what HIS way is.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> One more question about the NT verse... what kind of 'faith' would it be talking about?  Obviously Abel and Cain both heard and talked with God directly, what kind of faith would they have needed?



Maybe the faith to do exactly what the Lord said and required. Maybe having the faith to keep a righteous heart towards God's command instead of a heart to one's self.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Nope. You can not assume that.
> 
> What did Cain do after his offering was rejected? Did he repent? Did he try and offer another one correctly this time? Did he ask forgiveness?
> 
> ...



 I am talking about people who believe after life is over and they stand before God, and  have lived in this life to the best of their knowledge of God and what they have been taught, that God will accept it anyway, even if it goes against His will.....


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> God didn't write Hebrews or any other book of the NT.



He also didn't "write" the Old Testament. But, He inspired the writers of both of them. 

We are drifting Kerri.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> PWalls said:
> 
> 
> > I am talking about people who believe after life is over and they stand before God, and  have lived in this life to the best of their knowledge of God and what they have been taught, that God will accept it anyway, even if it goes against His will.....
> ...


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Well, based on this part of Genesis, no one knows what HIS way is.



Agree. No where in Genesis does it say why Cain's offer was rejected. 

Fortunately, Hebrews gives us some more insight.


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## Lowjack (Jan 18, 2009)

God had shown already that sin could be covered by animal sacrifice, it was God himself that sacrificed the first animals to cover their nudity, so God had already established a sacrificial offering , Cain resorted to offered the goods from the earth which he grown and harvested and his pride on his own work did him in, instead of following what God had established he resorted to his own way, God rejected it.
The Levites sons of Aaron offered strange fire to God in his altar and God killed them , same reason, what God establishes require obedience and faith in his Way.IMO
If God says you are saved by faith don't add anything to it.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Maybe the faith to do exactly what the Lord said and required. Maybe having the faith to keep a righteous heart towards God's command instead of a heart to one's self.



Is that really 'faith' though?
If you tell your kid to keep their room clean, do they do it because of 'faith'?

According to the bible, at the time of Cain and Abel, the only 'command' God had given was to Adam and Eve to not eat from the tree of knowledge.  Other than that, you can't say there were any commands given and have anything to back it up with.  The only threat God had given was death... and since they ate from the tree already, they already had that punishment coming to them, so it wasn't as if Cain and Abel did this to not receive a punishment.  So there was no need for 'faith'.



PWalls said:


> He also didn't "write" the Old Testament.




Agreed


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> God had shown already that sin could be covered by animal sacrifice, it was God himself that sacrificed the first animals to cover their nudity, so God had already established a sacrificial offering , Cain resorted to offered the good from the earth which he grown and harvested and his pride on his own work did him in, instead of following what God had established he resorted to his own way, God rejected it.
> The Levites sons of Aaron offered strange fire to God in his altar and God killed them , same reason, what God establishes require obedience and faith in his Way.IMO



That is another belief that I have heard, read and can understand as well.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Maybe he should have offered doughnuts




That is funny right there, don't matter who you are....

Hebrews 11:4 - "By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain...." 

Thanks my dear. This is  good enough for me. By relationship the Abel offer was best.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Is that really 'faith' though?
> If you tell your kid to keep their room clean, do they do it because of 'faith'?



Sure it is. They have "faith" that I will lay the smack down on them if they don't.


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## watashot89 (Jan 18, 2009)

does it matter?


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Ahh.
> 
> I believe that we will give an account one day. We will stand before God and have to answer for our beliefs. I believe in ISAS (If Saved Always Saved). That means I believe that if I have believed something wrong but have trusted my Salvation in Jesus Christ, then I am still going to Heaven, but I will have less crowns/rewards there.
> 
> Let's put a real world example out there. I believe that Homosexuality is a sin. It is a choice to sin against God. But, let's say when I am standing in front of God, He says, nope you are wrong and I made them that way. If that were the case, then I believe I will have lost a possible crown because of my wrong belief.



 I also believe in ISAS, but many on here do not and think if they are wrong on salvation doctrine, like some think water baptism is salvation, but when they stand before God and his plan is the Spritiual New Birth, that he will let them in anyway...


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

watashot89 said:


> does it matter?



God wants us to Rightly Divide The Word. So, our understanding of the Bible is important to Him. So, the answer to your question is "Yes".


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Sure it is. They have "faith" that I will lay the smack down on them if they don't.



But you're assuming God told Cain and Abel that he would lay the 'smack down' on them if they didn't give the right offering.  Which He didn't lay the smack down on Cain (well, until he killed Abel). So I still don't see any proof of these verses where 'faith' was needed.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I also believe in ISAS, but many on here do not and think if they are wrong on salvation doctrine, like some think water baptism is salvation, but when they stand before God and his plan is the Spritiual New Birth, that he will let them in anyway...



That is why it is important to spread the Gospel and make disciples as Jesus taught us. We do not want to see anyone die the second death.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> But you're assuming God told Cain and Abel that he would lay the 'smack down' on them if they didn't give the right offering.  Which He didn't lay the smack down on Cain (well, until he killed Abel). So I still don't see any proof of these verses where 'faith' was needed.



No, it appears that God told them He would only accept it one way. Abel did that and Cain didn't. God did what He said He would do. He accepted the one that was done correctly. Abel had faith that God would accept his because he did it like God said to do it. Abel trusted God to keep His word. Cain did not. Cain offered something contrary to what God wanted. He did not have faith in God's word.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 18, 2009)

pwalls said:


> that is why it is important to spread the gospel and make disciples as jesus taught us. We do not want to see anyone die the second death.



  amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lowjack (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> But you're assuming God told Cain and Abel that he would lay the 'smack down' on them if they didn't give the right offering.  Which He didn't lay the smack down on Cain (well, until he killed Abel). So I still don't see any proof of these verses where 'faith' was needed.



Animal sacrifices continue through to Abraham and his sons even though there was no written instructions, it was only after the Israelites were slaves for 400 years and were liberated that God showed moses how to do it again, so apparently the instructions and the why was handed down from Adam to his sons through set to even Noah and so forth.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> God had shown already that sin could be covered by animal sacrifice, it was God himself that sacrificed the first animals to cover their nudity, so God had already established a sacrificial offering , Cain resorted to offered the goods from the earth which he grown and harvested and his pride on his own work did him in, instead of following what God had established he resorted to his own way, God rejected it.
> The Levites sons of Aaron offered strange fire to God in his altar and God killed them , same reason, what God establishes require obedience and faith in his Way.IMO
> If God says you are saved by faith don't add anything to it.




Mmmmmmkay... yeah... ummm, no.

Being naked wasn't a sin.  God made them naked... so you're saying God made them sinful?   Their nakedness had already been covered with a fig leaf.  So much for that idea.

As far as the offerings given by Cain and Abel... they weren't sin sacrifices.  They were offerings to God.  There had only been one commandment given at the time of Adam and Eve, and that was to not eat of the tree of knowledge. Nowhere does the bible say that Cain or Abel ate from this tree, thereby sinning.  In fact it hadn't even been said 'thou shalt not kill' yet... so if the commandments were known and in effect then, why didn't Cain have to make a sacrifice after he killed Abel?

Besides, as one can see from Leviticus, grain (fruit of the soil) can also be used for sin sacrifices (for the sake of argument) so it doesn't lend itself to that being the reason either.

Again... the verses say God did not RESPECT Cain's offering.  It didn't say God didn't ACCEPT it.  There is a difference.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Being naked wasn't a sin.  God made them naked... so you're saying God made them sinful?   Their nakedness had already been covered with a fig leaf.  So much for that idea.



Actually, after their sin, they became aware of their nakedness. In other words, their sin turned their minds from innocence to shame and guilt. They made fig leaves for themselves in an effort to hide that shame.

God made them garments of skin as more permanent coverings for their shame. Gen 3:21. How do you suppose that skin was made? God sacrificed an animal to do it. That is the first example of an animal sacrifice because of sin. There was no death before then. God took an innocent animal and sacrificed it for them.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Animal sacrifices continue through to Abraham and his sons even though there was no written instructions, it was only after the Israelites were slaves for 400 years and were liberated that God showed moses how to do it again, so apparently the instructions and the why was handed down from Adam to his sons through set to even Noah and so forth.



Those were not sin sacrifices.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Actually, after their sin, they became aware of their nakedness. In other words, their sin turned their minds from innocence to shame and guilt. They made fig leaves for themselves in an effort to hide that shame.
> 
> God made them garments of skin as more permanent coverings for their shame. Gen 3:21. How do you suppose that skin was made? God sacrificed an animal to do it. That is the first example of an animal sacrifice because of sin. There was no death before then. God took an innocent animal and sacrificed it for them.



How do you know?
The bible doesn't say that God took an animal and sacrificed it for them.  All it says is that (Gen 3:21) 'Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. '

You don't know how God got those 'skins'.  You don't even know what kind of 'skins' those were.

All you can do is assume, using what works in your favor.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 18, 2009)

PWalls said:


> No, it appears that God told them He would only accept it one way. Abel did that and Cain didn't. God did what He said He would do. He accepted the one that was done correctly. Abel had faith that God would accept his because he did it like God said to do it. Abel trusted God to keep His word. Cain did not. Cain offered something contrary to what God wanted. He did not have faith in God's word.



Please tell me if you know the difference between 'accept' and 'respect'.  Or at least your understanding of the difference in the two.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Please tell me if you know the difference between 'accept' and 'respect'.  Or at least your understanding of the difference in the two.



What does it matter? Accept, Respect, Regard. Use whatever translation you like. The actual word used isn't the point.

God obviously liked one better than the other. One was correct. One wasn't. One was right. One was wrong.

God accepted, respected, regarded the correct one.


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## PWalls (Jan 18, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> How do you know?
> The bible doesn't say that God took an animal and sacrificed it for them.  All it says is that (Gen 3:21) 'Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. '
> 
> You don't know how God got those 'skins'.  You don't even know what kind of 'skins' those were.
> ...




If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it is normally a duck. Since Scripture doesn't spell out precisely and to the detail about the skins, then the logical conclusion is to take it in context which is animal skins. The next logical conclusion in context is that God reached down and grabbed up one of those innocent animals walking around.


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## PWalls (Jan 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Please tell me if you know the difference between 'accept' and 'respect'.



Oh, by the way, yes I do.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 19, 2009)

PWalls said:


> What does it matter? Accept, Respect, Regard. Use whatever translation you like. The actual word used isn't the point.
> 
> God obviously liked one better than the other. One was correct. One wasn't. One was right. One was wrong.
> 
> God accepted, respected, regarded the correct one.



That's not true.  Just because it wasn't respected doesn't mean it was wrong.

God didn't tell Cain anywhere in those verses that his offering was 'wrong'.  All God said was that if  he does 'well' then he will be accepted.  Pretty general.

If I make a post on here that offends someone else and I reply with..     "Sorry   "   is that 'wrong'?
After all, I have apologized....

It isn't 'wrong' but will it be _respected_? Probably not, because the sincerity is not there.

The scriptures don't say Cain didn't follow commands or instructions.  They say God didn't respect his offering.  You don't see a difference there, but I do.  I'll just chalk that up to yet another one on the list


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## fivesolas (Jan 19, 2009)

The words translated "had respect to" is sha`ah in hebrew, it means to look upon. It is translated in Scripture as respect, regard, looked, depart, turn, spare, look away, et. 

Cain was looking to God for atonement and acceptance and brought his offering. God rejected it, the offering, and Cain along with it.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 19, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Cain was looking to God for atonement and acceptance and brought his offering. God rejected it, the offering, and Cain along with it.



You are assuming that.

There is exactly ONE verse from Cain being born to giving this offering.  

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. 

 Gen 4:2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 

 Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 

You know absolutely ZERO about what happened in between there, why he made the offering or WHY it was rejected.  Anything you come up with is based on pure assumption. 

God didn't reject Cain because of the offering.  He rejected the offering.  He tells Cain:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him. 

Doesn't sound like a rejection to me.  Sounds like a pep talk.

But you make it whatever you want... you will anyway, to fit your 'faith'.


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## gtparts (Jan 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> God didn't write Hebrews or any other book of the NT.



Opinion! When you make statements like this, please do us the courtesy of adding "IMO" or something to that effect. 






Dixie Dawg said:


> Faith of what?  Obviously both Cain and Abel conversed with God directly.  What faith would they have needed?



You aren't real big on _faith_, are you?


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## gtparts (Jan 19, 2009)

Whether it was the differing nature of the offerings or a difference in the (hearts) motivations of the two young men or a combination, it is unclear exactly why God deemed one act as superior to the other. It should be enough to know that God is sovereign and He alone determines what is right and wrong, what is superior and inferior. 

Perhaps the lesson here is that God is sovereign and does not have to explain or justify His actions to us or anyone. Since God looks on the heart, the inner man, it could be that we are to learn from this that our actions are important to God and so is our motivation.

Peace.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 19, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Opinion! When you make statements like this, please do us the courtesy of adding "IMO" or something to that effect.



Well, I would, if it was truly an opinion. But it isn't... it's a matter of fact.  God did not pen the manuscripts of the NT.  If he did, I'm sure he could have gotten the events correct regarding Judas, and could have remembered what quote came from Zechariah or Jeremiah, etc.

You can claim IYO that God 'inspired' the authors, but that doesn't mean God wrote it.  My daughter could inspire me to write a book... doesn't mean she gets the royalty check or types a single word of the manuscript.





> You aren't real big on _faith_, are you?




Unfortunately, no.
Honestly there is a part of me that wishes I were... that I could accept things that make no logical common sense even though the opposite is right in front of me.  I would love to be able to believe someone is able to right all the wrongs I have done in  my life with no questions asked, just because I believe it.  But according to the bible, it's not that simple... and I just can't do it.  Then again, perhaps I should be accountable for my own actions.


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## fivesolas (Jan 19, 2009)

> You are assuming that.



Everyone begins with assumptions/presuppostions. You points then after this statement...are moot.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 19, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Everyone begins with assumptions/presuppostions. You points then after this statement...are moot.





I can only assume you have no alternative explanation then.


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> How do you know?
> The bible doesn't say that God took an animal and sacrificed it for them.  All it says is that (Gen 3:21) 'Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them. '
> 
> You don't know how God got those 'skins'.  You don't even know what kind of 'skins' those were.
> ...



Errrr , what do you call it when you kill an animal for the meat blood or cloth ?
I know in your line of thinking "harvested" ? No wait, Hunted"? LOL


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## Banjo (Jan 19, 2009)

> There had only been one commandment given at the time of Adam and Eve, and that was to not eat of the tree of knowledge. Nowhere does the bible say that Cain or Abel ate from this tree, thereby sinning.



Actually, when Adam fell, so did all of his posterity.  We  ALL fell in the first Adam.  Cain and Abel were both sinners.  Abel was of the elect; Cain was not.  

Through the first Adam we all fell; through the second Adam (Christ) the elect are redeemed.


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## gtparts (Jan 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Well, I would, if it was truly an opinion. But it isn't... it's a matter of fact.  God did not pen the manuscripts of the NT.  If he did, I'm sure he could have gotten the events correct regarding Judas, and could have remembered what quote came from Zechariah or Jeremiah, etc.
> 
> You can claim IYO that God 'inspired' the authors, but that doesn't mean God wrote it.  My daughter could inspire me to write a book... doesn't mean she gets the royalty check or types a single word of the manuscript.





Then you have all of the original documents and a verifiable document, whereby God attests to not having penned them? 

You state it as fact, but you have absolutely nothing to support that position. Your assurances are not proof. Your credibility on the subject of God is laughable, as you do not even recognize His Son.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 19, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Then you have all of the original documents and a verifiable document, whereby God attests to not having penned them?
> 
> You state it as fact, but you have absolutely nothing to support that position. Your assurances are not proof. Your credibility on the subject of God is laughable, as you do not even recognize His Son.



Are you seriously insisting that God himself with his own hand, paper and a pen wrote the letters 'signed' by Paul, John, etc. that make up the NT?  If so, then I think you should take another look at whose credibility is laughable. 

Seriously, sometimes all some Christians do in this forum is add to the irrationality that the bible is true at all.  I liken it to the cutting off your nose to spite your face phrase.  If your intent is to push people away from being open to any ideas of validity of the bible, you're doing a great job.  Much better than you accuse me of.


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## gtparts (Jan 20, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> Are you seriously insisting that God himself with his own hand, paper and a pen wrote the letters 'signed' by Paul, John, etc. that make up the NT?  If so, then I think you should take another look at whose credibility is laughable.



No, just pointing to the truth of you statement(





> God didn't write Hebrews or any other book of the NT.


) as being unverifiable opinion. I guess we could start some worthless speculation on the degree of inspiration God had on the writers of the N.T., but the point is quite simple: God has communicated through the N.T. writers exactly what He intended, for the purpose He intended it. He wants every person to cherish His Word/His Son in his heart and live as Christ lived in his daily life. Having a complete knowledge and understanding is not necessary and in fact, is undesirable, since it would negate the necessity of faith.

DD, it's not your inability to trust the Word of God; it is your unwillingness that prevents you from wrapping your heart around the spiritual truth found in the N.T. and that saves the souls of men, even Jesus Christ. How I pray that one day you will come to have a right relationship with Him.



Dixie Dawg said:


> Seriously, sometimes all some Christians do in this forum is add to the irrationality that the bible is true at all.  I liken it to the cutting off your nose to spite your face phrase.  If your intent is to push people away from being open to any ideas of validity of the bible, you're doing a great job.  Much better than you accuse me of.



Yep. It is irrational on the surface. 

I readily concede that there are great similarities in the physical and spiritual realms. I will also concede that there are great dissimilarities in the physical and spiritual realms.

The physical is the imperfect image of the spiritual.

Below is just one example where, if one relies on what they know of the physical world, they will not be able to grasp the truth of what God has revealed through Jesus, and Him alone.

Matthew 10:39

"He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it."

Answers to spiritual questions are only found by commitment to spiritually seeking the Kingdom of Heaven. Intellect and personal achievement, making application of worldly knowledge, will not bring spiritual fulfillment.

I sincerely pray that God will bring you low, humble you to your knees, that you will realize only Jesus can raise you up.

Peace. Not mine, but His.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jan 20, 2009)

gtparts said:


> DD, it's not your inability to trust the Word of God; it is your unwillingness that prevents you from wrapping your heart around the spiritual truth found in the N.T. and that saves the souls of men, even Jesus Christ.



I was more than willing, for many years.  Tried with everything I had to not let the inconsistencies and unanswered questions affect my faith. But you didn't know me then, so you have no idea of what I went through to have 'more faith'.  After a while, you realize it just isn't there.





> I sincerely pray that God will bring you low, humble you to your knees, that you will realize only Jesus can raise you up.
> 
> Peace. Not mine, but His.



Again... I have been there.... done that.... Jesus was nowhere to be found.

But I know you are sincere in your wishes... so I thank you for that.


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## gtparts (Jan 20, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I was more than willing, for many years.  Tried with everything I had to not let the inconsistencies and unanswered questions affect my faith. But you didn't know me then, so you have no idea of what I went through to have 'more faith'.  After a while, you realize it just isn't there.
> 
> Again... I have been there.... done that.... Jesus was nowhere to be found.
> 
> But I know you are sincere in your wishes... so I thank you for that.



You are right, I did not know you then. I still do not know you. I know something about you, as you have shared numerous times.

I do know Jesus, though. Not just about Him, but from a personal relationship. I am not the same person I was before I met Him. I don't do the same things. I don't want he same things. My desire is to be more and more like Him and less and less recognizable as the man I was. He saved me and now is in the process of changing me into the person God always meant for me to be.

Deny it, if you will, but you are not experiencing the joy that having a relationship with Jesus brings. You experience fleeting happiness out of worldly recognition and the things that you labor so hard for, only to find them temporary and unfulfilling. There is still a spiritual emptiness that you want to have filled. There is even a dynamic in the relationship with your daughter that scares you if you dwell on it for any length of time, so you brush it aside and get busy doing something to take your mind off of it. What you want, what you need are answers. The answers you need can only be found in Jesus.

What you need to come to grips with is that dependency on Him is freeing in all respects. The sacrifice of what you want, in order to make room for what He wants for you, is incredibly liberating. When what you want conforms to what He wants, the joy starts flowing like you can't believe.

Doing what you have always done and expecting different results is insanity. 

There are some things you need to accept as true. Yeah, sounds a lot like placing faith in something you can only know for certain as you begin to experience it. Sorry, Kerri, but that's the way God set it up and He is unlikely to make an exception in your case. So here goes.

One does not conjure up God, Kerri. Quit trying. He has been there all along.

Waiting until the perfect set of circumstances coincide to start a new direction in life or rebuild a relationship (especially if you are responsible for damaging it in the first place) is foolishness and a waste of time. Get over yourself, you're in no position to demand that God respond in a particular way to satisfy your doubts. He'll get rid of those doubts in His time. 

You will probably, over time, have a near 100% change in friends. Embrace it. God knows what is best for you. Draw close to Him and He will draw close to you. And He always brings new friends to support you in newness of life.

Young lady, by your own admission, you have had a tough life;been mistreated, lied to , abused, abandoned (some figuratively, most emotionally, many literally) and Jesus has been there the whole time, hurting with you, interceding for you, waiting for you to truly turn everything over to Him. What He has done for millions and millions of others, He will do for you. Don't give up on yourself, He hasn't.

Peace.


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## pileit (Apr 8, 2009)

Enuff said lowjack amen and amen.


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## Dawgy_Daddy (Apr 9, 2009)

Some of my middle schoolers ask me this question a few weeks back and my answer was that Abels offering was like getting a Christmas or birthday gift that had alot of thought and love.  Cains offering was like stopping by the Wal-mart or Dollar store to buy something on the way to the party.


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## reformedpastor (Apr 9, 2009)

The NT answers the question. Cain's offering was rejected because his was not of faith. Anything not done in faith (in Jesus Christ) is sinful no matter how good the action may be. 

Romans 14:23 - and whatever is not from faith is sin.  

We know Cain didn't have faith because of I John's commentary on Cain as a child of the devil.

And true faith obeys God's word.


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## Ray Whithead (Apr 9, 2009)

Some people go to church on Sunday morning because it's on their schedule, same as the Rotary Club meeting, thier daily workout, the PTA meeting and so on.  Others go to Church becasue of thier faith to worship and praise God, and to feel the holy spirt work in them. The key word is Faith.


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## AM1 (Apr 16, 2009)

As stated earlier, God did not reject Cain without giving him another opportunity. Gen. ch.4, verse 6 & 7 states, "And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? And why is thy countenance fallen? vs.7- If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

 You can't just go on what verse 4 & 5 say. as Paul Harvey used to say, "Here's the rest of the story". God clearly offered Cain a chance to take stock of himself & try it again. There is every chance that God would have accepted it. But God knew Cain better than Cain knew himself. God knew that Cain was going to react the way he did (rejection + jealousy + murder= bad day for Cain). But God loved Cain enough anyway to give him another try.  Cain's pride swelled up in him & he allowed sin to consume his emotions & actions, just as God had warned it would. It was all entirely on Cain from that point on. This has not changed in our time at all. If we do something contrary to the way God wanted it done, yes we will be rejected. However, God thru his  son Jesus, will always extend to us another opportunity to make it right, up until our appointed time to leave this walk of life. If we refuse to take advantage, then we deserve our punishment, just as Cain deserved his.


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