# Jesus



## jkkj

Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?


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## Ole Crip

Why would u ask this if you do not mind me asking?


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## jkkj

Have been doing some reading and study. Just a question that came to mind.


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## clayservant

good question


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## hobbs27

jkkj said:


> Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?



Yes, He also had the Father, and so likewise The Father  and The Holy Spirit had The Son, even from the beginning.


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## BT Charlie

jkkj said:


> Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?



What answer most supports Jesus Christ's atonement of our sin? (As if any we may offer could diminish such?)

At birth, Jesus was flesh and Son of God incarnate.  Praise God my little mind cannot comprehend the mechanics of such, nor the implications nor nuances of the answers to questions such as these.  But I renounce each and every answer that would detract one atom from Christ's perfect atonement of our sin.

I know nothing of this.  Yet if it is an honest question from a brother, and if steel sharpens steel, and if my admittedly dull and imperfect view could help sharpen the OP, or Crip, or anyone...then I will answer, imperfectly, of course.  Forgive my ignorance.

The Apostle John addressed heretics in his day who preached what he knew to be a perverse understanding of Christ's birth, baptism, death and resurrection.  Let me say I have little if any understanding, and offer this as a starting point perhaps but certainly not as an overture for another holy doctrinal war on some topic.  Again, I seek to glorify Christ's completed work on the cross, and nothing else.  I perceive 1 John as dealing with the OP's question and other context.

1 John shouts the God breathed testimony of the Apostle that the One who has existed from eternity became flesh, Jesus Christ.  That it was this God-man who was baptized, and crucified and died, for our perfect atonement of sin. And that this was the only means of assuring our atonement. 1 John 1:1-4; 4:2; 5:5-6.

Heretics of John's day preached that Jesus was born merely human, that the Spirit John the Baptist saw come from heaven upon Jesus (John 1:32-33), was the Christ, Son of God, entering Jesus the man at His baptism; and that shortly before Jesus died, the Christ, Son of God, returned to heaven, leaving only Jesus the man to die on the cross.

"This is the one who came by water and blood -- Jesus Christ.  He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.  For there are three that testify: the Spirt, the water and the blood; and three are in agreement.
"We accept human testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.  Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.  Whoever as the son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life."  1 John 5: 6-12.

To reframe the OP, would the Son of God, in whom we believe, also have the Holy Spirit when he was born, and before He was baptized?  Praise God that the Son of God had precisely all the attributes that God intended the Son of God to embody, forever.


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## gordon 2

jkkj said:


> Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?


Yes.


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## Ole Crip

My friend they are all one of the same...


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## jkkj

Thanks for the responses. ( These are things that came to mind as i was reading gods word. Things to ponder. Things to study.)

Do you think the holy spirit left christ as he took his last breath on the cross?


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## Artfuldodger

jkkj said:


> Thanks for the responses. ( These are things that came to mind as i was reading gods word. Things to ponder. Things to study.)
> 
> Do you think the holy spirit left christ as he took his last breath on the cross?



I look at Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at his baptism the same as us. Jesus emptied himself to become a man. Everything he did as a man was from his father(God).

Our death will be like his death and the Holy Spirit will leave our bodies as it left the body of Christ when he died.

Q. Does the Holy Spirit leave us when we die?  Does giving up the ghost mean separating from the Holy Spirit or merely separating our body from our spirit?  What about all the people that have died? Do they get the Holy Spirit back when they are resurrected, or were they never separated?

A.  The Holy Spirit was sealed within us as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (Ephes. 1:13-14). He was also sent to us as a counselor to compensate for the fact that Jesus returned to the Father (John 16:7).  Once we die we begin to receive our inheritance and the Holy Spirit will be released.  After the rapture/resurrection we’ll be in perfected bodies and will know as we’re known, so we’ll no longer need the indwelling Holy Spirit in the way we do now. Our spirit will be one with God.

http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-holy-spirit-2/


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## BT Charlie

jkkj said:


> Thanks for the responses. ( These are things that came to mind as i was reading gods word. Things to ponder. Things to study.)
> 
> Do you think the holy spirit left christ as he took his last breath on the cross?



To model Gordo, in a word, no.

Jesus Christ, "Son of God," this unfathomably holy God-man, was unjustly crucified as atonement precisely for our sins.  1 John 5:6.  If Jesus died but a man, or something less than God, would the atonement have been sufficient? 

If you ask, then, was Jesus Christ something less than God when He was crucified and died, my answer is "no." The Christ, in all that He is, atoned, paid, 100 percent of 100 percent of our debts.  His unnmerited grace is our salvation. He ministers today from the right hand of the Father in Heaven.

We know we are spiritual beings with eternal life, and fleshly bodies that must die.  We also know that God's ways are not our ways, are above our ways, so understanding of the particulars is ... .


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## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> To model Gordo, in a word, no.
> 
> Jesus Christ, "Son of God," this unfathomably holy God-man, was unjustly crucified as atonement precisely for our sins.  1 John 5:6.  If Jesus died but a man, or something less than God, would the atonement have been sufficient?
> 
> If you ask, then, was Jesus Christ something less than God when He was crucified and died, my answer is "no." The Christ, in all that He is, atoned, paid, 100 percent of 100 percent of our debts.  His unnmerited grace is our salvation. He ministers today from the right hand of the Father in Heaven.



I'm probably misunderstanding you here, but are you saying that God died?  If so, what brought Him back to life?


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## Artfuldodger

I always believed God or his spirit ressurected Jesus. Jesus has his own soul , which was off preaching after Jesus died.


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## BT Charlie

Thanks Hawg.  It is mind blowing, but the Holy Spirit testifies today to the truth of the Apostles' witness.  I understand it best to say Jesus was the Son of God at His birth and at His death.  The mechanics of this are not known to me.  I am unworthy to answer your question beyond this, my friend.  Blessings to you.


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## Ronnie T

For the sake of discussion, what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit's dissension onto Jesus after His baptism.  

Some say it denoted the beginning of Jesus' ministry.  Did Jesus receive an empowering on that day God identified Him as His son?
.


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## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> I look at Jesus receiving the Holy Spirit at his baptism the same as us. Jesus emptied himself to become a man. Everything he did as a man was from his father(God).
> 
> Our death will be like his death and the Holy Spirit will leave our bodies as it left the body of Christ when he died.
> 
> Q. Does the Holy Spirit leave us when we die?  Does giving up the ghost mean separating from the Holy Spirit or merely separating our body from our spirit?  What about all the people that have died? Do they get the Holy Spirit back when they are resurrected, or were they never separated?
> 
> A.  The Holy Spirit was sealed within us as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance (Ephes. 1:13-14). He was also sent to us as a counselor to compensate for the fact that Jesus returned to the Father (John 16:7).  Once we die we begin to receive our inheritance and the Holy Spirit will be released.  After the rapture/resurrection we’ll be in perfected bodies and will know as we’re known, so we’ll no longer need the indwelling Holy Spirit in the way we do now. Our spirit will be one with God.
> 
> http://gracethrufaith.com/ask-a-bible-teacher/the-holy-spirit-2/



So my earnest hope here Art is that our discussion avoids doubt and drives common glorification of Jesus Christ.  Jesus Christ is undoubtedly the Son of God.

John 1:32 says John the Baptist witnessed the Spirit descend upon Jesus at His baptism.  We know Jesus was the Son of God at His birth and at His death, for atonement of our sins. 1 John 5:6. We know Jesus = God. 

Beyond this, from me, is mere flatulence, from which I will spare you.  Best for me to deal with it alone, lest it offend or harm a sensitive brother.

I am unworthy to state much beyond this.


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## BT Charlie

Ronnie T said:


> For the sake of discussion, what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit's dissension onto Jesus after His baptism.
> 
> Some say it denoted the beginning of Jesus' ministry.  Did Jesus receive an empowering on that day God identified Him as His son?
> .



Beautiful question. Again, I remain unworthy to even act as if my response is even in the ball park.  I agree some denote the commencement of Christ's earthly ministry from the time the Spirit descended upon Him.  It also clearly testified to John the Baptish that Christ is the lamb of God.  Moreover, through the supernatural experience, does not the Spirit (God) testify through His Word and in our hearts today? In other words, whatever happened, the Spirit witnessed it and testifies in truth to us here and now, forever. The Spirit that walked all that out indwells us here and now and speaks to the truth of it.

It is interesting how 1 John 5 spends much time dealing with the effect of valid witness testimony under OT law.  While the testimony of witnesses proved valid, the testimony of God is greater, is perfect. And the Spirit testifies this is so to us today.  That's how this lawyer boy glimpses the little slice peeking through.  How do you see it, fearless leader?


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## jkkj

*op*



Ronnie T said:


> For the sake of discussion, what was the purpose of the Holy Spirit's dissension onto Jesus after His baptism.
> 
> Some say it denoted the beginning of Jesus' ministry.  Did Jesus receive an empowering on that day God identified Him as His son?
> .



I think it denoted the beginning of his ministry and the dove was a sign to the people or bystanders.


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## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> 1 John 5:6.  If Jesus died but a man, or something less than God, would the atonement have been sufficient?
> 
> If you ask, then, was Jesus Christ something less than God when He was crucified and died, my answer is "no."



If something more than the man died, what was it?


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## Artfuldodger

I was thinking it had to be "but a man" for the atonement.


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## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> If something more than the man died, what was it?



Did not our rejection and murder of Jesus Christ require atonement? Could a holy God humble Himself and experience our sin, our death, our  dam -ation, to spare us from the same?  Could atonement for "us" be achieved any other way? Am I even worthy of breathig the air in the presence of such holiness, such love?

You think of miracles frequently.  Isn't this the miracle of all miracles you ponder, HJ?  God Himself, doing all, precisely for you my forum friend.  You have the mind capacity to glimpse this miracle perhaps far more than any of us.

Here's some writing on it.  I don't vouch for the authority, credibility or reliability: test all spirits in Christ. (I need some technical advice as I can't seem to ever get a correct hyper-link going. You, on the other hand HJ, are very good technically. If you find this worthwile and can make it easier to "click" through I would be grateful.  If it works this time, awesome.

http://opentableconference.com/holy-spirit/


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## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> I was thinking it had to be "but a man" for the atonement.



Oh how He loves us, Art. That God would humble Himself, become our sin, our rejection of Him, experience our death and dam-ation...now that is the power of One True God.


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## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Did not our rejection and murder of Jesus Christ require atonement? Could a holy God humble Himself and experience our sin, our death, our  dam -ation, to spare us from the same?  Could atonement for "us" be achieved any other way? Am I even worthy of breathig the air in the presence of such holiness, such love?
> 
> http://opentableconference.com/holy-spirit/



I read the article, but it doesn't address the Trinity.  It speaks of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as three distinctly different entities and focuses on whether the Holy Spirit was with God or Jesus at the crucifixion.  

If Jesus was God and Jesus/God died on the cross, then who resurrected Jesus/God?


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## BT Charlie

Blessings, HJ.  

Does your mind implicitly equate your/our understanding of human death, with what God would experience if He humbled Himself and experienced our death?  I infer you glimpsing that when the flesh of Jesus died, God in and of Christ, yes including the Holy Spirit, lived...as He had before time and all eternity.  

This article is not that which I rely upon now.

God became our sin (does that not blow your mind?) and died our death (can any questions about miracles or trinities even be uttered in the presence of such a holy concept?) precisely so that we may avoid such and live for eternity, reconciled to Him.  

Keep pressing, Hawg.  You are in the presence of the miracles of all miracles, utter, mind-blowing miracle... just for you...and mankind.

Can you imagine anyone sacrificing such to take away all your imperfections, even your own death, so you may live forever and be reconciled to the very holiness who loved you first?  I cannot, truly!

This is the "the glory of God," man, before the fall, Hawg, of which we fall short through our sin, absent Christ and His finished work on the Cross.  This is the self-proving nature of scripture written over the span of centuries...the mystery that continues to boggle minds.  The proof you seek!  Grasp it, Hawg... This is the destiny of the believer... you will be again...for it was purposed ... that you know Jesus Christ and in perfect time one day rule over creation and judge even angels.


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## Ronnie T

BT Charlie said:


> Beautiful question. Again, I remain unworthy to even act as if my response is even in the ball park.  I agree some denote the commencement of Christ's earthly ministry from the time the Spirit descended upon Him.  It also clearly testified to John the Baptish that Christ is the lamb of God.  Moreover, through the supernatural experience, does not the Spirit (God) testify through His Word and in our hearts today? In other words, whatever happened, the Spirit witnessed it and testifies in truth to us here and now, forever.
> 
> It is interesting how 1 John 5 spends much time dealing with the effect of valid witness testimony under OT law.  While the testimony of witnesses proved valid, the testimony of God is greater, is perfect. And the Spirit testifies this is so to us today.  That's how this lawyer boy glimpses the little slice peeking through.  How do you see it, fearless leader?



Well, I'm sticking my thoughts in here even though I don't meet the qualifications of 'fearless' or 'leading'. lol.

But I do have some thoughts.

I certainly don't believe Jesus was just a typical youngster at birth.  Just what of His father he had in Himself I am not able to say.  I know that He taught in the temple at the same age that I was running brush hooks down Holmes creek behind my folks house.

So, in my preferred place of ignorance I have to refer back to God's holy word in hopes of at least getting close to a comfortable answer.

Matt 3:11 “As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will thoroughly clear His threshing floor; and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
13 Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him. 14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?” 15 But Jesus answering said to him, “Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he permitted Him. 16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, 17 and behold, a voice out of the heavens said, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well-pleased.”...................
....................Matt 4:4 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 And after He had fasted forty days and forty nights, He then became hungry. 3 And the tempter came"

To simply say that it appears as if Jesus received some part of the Spirit on that day would be a gross understatement.  But far be it from me to know all that concerns God's Holy Spirit and His Son on this day.

My opinion?  Please, even my wife gave up on my opinions many years ago.  

So, I surmise that John, through God's empowerment, was telling of Jesus receiving 'something' of the Holy Spirit on that day.
.


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## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Blessings, HJ.
> 
> Does your mind implicitly equate your/our understanding of human death, with what God would experience if He humbled Himself and experienced our death?  I infer you glimpsing that when the flesh of Jesus died, God in and of Christ, yes including the Holy Spirit, lived...as He had before time and all eternity.




So neither God nor the Holy Spirit died, only a man died?

I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record but this is of some importance.  Christianity is based upon this.


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## 1gr8bldr

In the OT, and seen in the NT, the firstborn was offered up to redeem the remainder of the family. The second or third child did not have to be offered because it was accomplished by the firstborn. Jesus was our redeemer because he was the firstborn. Not because he was God. No where in scripture, no where, do we see anything about only God could pay the sin debt.  So the remainder of the family is covered. He is the firstborn of many brothers


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## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> So neither God nor the Holy Spirit died, only a man died?
> 
> I realize I'm starting to sound like a broken record but this is of some importance.  Christianity is based upon this.



I am not worthy to purport to answer, or to purport to speak for the One.  I am glad we agree that it is of "some importance."  The very miracles of all miracles, revealed to you.  And yes, the essence of faith in Christ.

Is it not sufficient for you, HJ, that God became your sin, experienced human death for you, even suffered human dam-ation for you, and resurrected from the grave?

If even the Son of God had to be baptized to complete all righteousness, does it 
not also beautifully follow that He became sin (how did he do that, you ask) experienced your human death (how did he do that, you ask) and suffered your dam-ation (how did he do that, you ask) -- is that not _ENOUGH_ for you, I ask? And yet it is not all, as the resurrection completes His will for you, for each of us. Is that not enough, for us all?

Who is the clay ... to claim the ability to even begin to get...It.  The Alpha and the Omega. The truth, and its miracles, exist whether we can fathom them or not.


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## BT Charlie

1grblder, you and I will lovingly disagree on your point regarding the impact of Christ being God at His death.  This is quite complex, and full. The purpose of my participation was simply to try to glorify Christ, not to claim knowledge or be a force of division or disunity.  I've quoted the scripture from which comes  my thinking, regarding John's view of Christ being God-man at His death, and the importance of that with respect to sufficient atonement. I've offered those for whatever value my flawed and unrighteous thoughts may be.  It is totally cool with me if you or others find me wrong, and I respect others' thoughtful instruction based on scripture.  Do not stumble on my offering; freely reject it as you will.  Peace to you.


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## Ole Crip

If I may BT Charlie and Ronnie T keep up the good works for it is not our place to question God!!!! It is our place to obey God we must have faith! Why question anything in the good book. If your a Christ follower then you know the love of God and you know in your heart that the holy spirit and Jesus are all of the same with God. This makes them all three one in the same.


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## BT Charlie

Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. Romans 14:1.  ... Therefore, let us stop passing judgment on one another. Instead, make up your mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in the way of another brother or sister. Romans 14:13. ... Let us therefore make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.  Romans 14:19. ...It is better to not eat meat or drink wine OR TO DO ANYTHING ELSE that will cause your brother or sister to fall.  So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Romans 14:21-22.


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## BT Charlie

Ole Crip said:


> If I may BT Charlie and Ronnie T keep up the good works for it is not our place to question God!!!! It is our place to obey God we must have faith! Why question anything in the good book. If your a Christ follower then you know the love of God and you know in your heart that the holy spirit and Jesus are all of the same with God. This makes them all three one in the same.



Amen, OC.  Peace to you as well!


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## 1gr8bldr

Acts 2:33 also tells us that Jesus received the promised Holy Spirit


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## 1gr8bldr

jkkj said:


> Did Jesus have the Holy Spirit before he was baptized?


My belief is that he received the HS at his baptism. Remember that the HS was the new Covenant promise. He was the first


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## BT Charlie

The Holy Spirit conceived Jesus, yes? Luke 1:35.  John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit, even in Elizabeth's womb. Luke 1:16.  

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

"Who being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.

"And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself, and became 
obedient to death-- even death on a cross. " ... Philippians 2:5-8.

"There He was transfigured before them.  His face shown like the sun and His clothes became white as light." ... Matthew 17:2.


"For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily." Col. 2:9 (KJV) (and 
signature line of a dear brother here).  God = the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

So can it be denied that Jesus, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born of woman, 
crucified and died, to be resurrected -- was fully God?

Yet, as Art and 1gr8blder write, Jesus was fully man, the perfect first born, without blemish,  precisely the fit for atoning sacrifice ... The first born-again man.

We know God cannot be tempted. "When tempted, no one should say, 'God is tempting me.' For God cannot be tempted by evil..." James 1:13.

Yet Jesus was tempted by Satan, as Satan tempts us today.  "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are -- yet was without sin." Hebrews 4:15.

And, as Ronnie noted, immediately after Jesus was baptized, He was anointed 
with the Holy Spirit and delivered to the wilderness to face Satan and Satan's temptations. Yes, indeed, an anointing, the Power of God, in full, was on Jesus 
Christ at baptism, and at other times while He was on earth.

Prior to Christ's ascension into heaven, and the Holy Spirit pouring out at Pentecost, there is no record (is there?) of the Holy Spirit living -- 
permanently, indwelling --man?   The Spirit temporarily came upon men... (Correct me please if this is in error).  In the NT, attributes of the Godhead were made unavailable to Jesus, as a result of His humbling to become also man, explaining perhaps the instances in which revelation of the Holy Spirit in or on Him were witnessed.

Scripture speaks to Christ becoming sin on the cross.  He calls out to the Father, anguishing at having become our sin, upon which the Father cannot look.  Why have You Foresaken Me?

No dove or fire was witnessed departing Jesus shortly before or after His death.  In other words, the reversebphenomenon witnessed at His baptism.

Can one ever say scripture explicitly lays out concisely the mechanics of whether the Spirit could in-dwell Jesus as He was made sin, died, and went to he!7? We know scripture says on the resurrection that the Father and the Holy Spirit rescued Christ from that location, taking Him to Heaven.  

Did the Father turn His back so Jesus became sin? Or did Jesus become sin, causing the Fathet to turn His back? Did the Holy Spirit thus require to depart? What are the precise sequences of events and why? Do we really need to guess at this stuff, since we know what God deemed to reveal to us in tbe Word? 

Much more detail could be filled in here, from scripture, illustrating moments of 
Jesus' complete humanity, moments of anointing by the Holy Spirit during His human walk on earth, in His resurrection after death.  

At no time was the Godheaded separated -- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit = God (mind-blowing).  And Christ was both fully God and fully human, but perfect, fulfilling the law per His Father's will.  

Satan has cast doubt on aspects of this through false doctrine. Gnostics in tbe early church and other groups today.

The beauty and awesomeness of Jesus, so rich, so complex -- fully God and yet 
fully human, but without sin!  Can we gloss over the mind-blowing reality of 
these things, in their whole? 

I am afraid I have done just that in focusing on answers to the OP and the 
follow up question.  Forgive me if my responses have been confining or misleading or simply wrong...  Blessings.


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## BT Charlie

Ole Crip said:


> If I may BT Charlie and Ronnie T keep up the good works for it is not our place to question God!!!! It is our place to obey God we must have faith! Why question anything in the good book. If your a Christ follower then you know the love of God and you know in your heart that the holy spirit and Jesus are all of the same with God. This makes them all three one in the same.




You have great faith, OC... Never forfeit a single atom of Christ's power -- alive in you -- for man's doctrines.  Never let doctrinal differences ensnare you, and renounce, rebuke any spirit of discouragement, of quit, of can't. In Christ, all things are possible.


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Acts 2:33 also tells us that Jesus received the promised Holy Spirit



I thought that was pretty clear. What about the verse with the dove landing on Jesus as the Holy Spirit?


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## Ole Crip

BT Charlie said:


> You have great faith, OC... Never forfeit a single atom of Christ's power -- alive in you -- for man's doctrines.  Never let doctrinal differences ensnare you, and renounce, rebuke any spirit of discouragement, of quit, of can't. In Christ, all things are possible.



My friend all we need is faith!!! I try so hard to bite my tongue on here when I hear the questioning of Our Father!! It's not our place nor any other man for that matter it's not of God to question Gods will or his word.


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## Ole Crip

Proverbs 30:5 every word of God is FLAWLESS he is a shield to those who take refuge in him...


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## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought that was pretty clear. What about the verse with the dove landing on Jesus as the Holy Spirit?



The Godhead remains unchanged in Christ, and He is also sinless man.  

He humbled Hinself to become man. Attributes of the Godhead thus divinely suspended to accommodate this.  

How many times in the NT can you find where witnesses record the Holy Spirit revealed upon Christ? The baptism is only one.

The dove stands in contrast to the fire symbolizing the Spirit pouring out at Pentecost.  The HS appeared as a dove and as fire.  

I don't see any reverse phenomenon recorded, where the HS as either a dove or fire was witnessed leaving Jesus during His walk on Earth.  

The Godhead remained in it all. How awesome and unknowable is all of this? Amen


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## BT Charlie

Ole Crip said:


> My friend all we need is faith!!! I try so hard to bite my tongue on here when I hear the questioning of Our Father!! It's not our place nor any other man for that matter it's not of God to question Gods will or his word.



Amen.  Keep the faith, and press into the Word.  Do not let others of lesser or other faith cause you to stumble.  Join us in dealing with the planks in own eyes, before we criticize the speck in other servants' eyes. And please forgive me, if I am also a cause of your tongue biting. You may always correct me!


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## Ole Crip

God will deal with that not me. I am going to defend his word the same as you. The quoting of scripture is perfect. It's awesome to know we have a forgiving God.


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## Artfuldodger

I don't have a problem with anyone's belief. We can add our own speculation beyond what the bible says. a good example is saying whole house baptisms included children. There is a pretty good chance they did but the Bible doesn't tell us that. Even if children were in those few houses mentioned, the bible doesn't mention that they were baptised. We can only assume or speculate.


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## Artfuldodger

If we believe Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins, we are true believers in Christ. The Bible says Jesus died a man and was raised a man. Even though the Bible says this I don't believe it is a part of your salvation if you believe he was resurrected a ghost.
You might believe Jesus is God, the son of God, or the adopted son of God. It depends mostly on what you learned from your parents or how you were indoctrinated more than what the Bible says.
What or who does the Bible say was needed for atonement? man? blood?
What or who does the Old Testament tell us about the Messiah?


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## Artfuldodger

The Old Testament foretold that Messiah would be a Jew, born in Bethlehem in the royal line of David the king, of the tribe of Judah. These are clear and detailed prophecies. Look at these examples: 

"And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou (David) shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever." (2 Samuel 7:12,13) 

"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel: whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2) 

Jesus, Son of God
The prophecies said Jesus was not only to be the son of David; he was also to be Son of God. This is variously described in the Old Testament: 

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14) 

"I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (1 Chronicles 17:13) 

"He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." (Psalm 89:26,27) 

"I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (Psalm 2:7) 

Therefore Messiah would be a descendant of David but not of a Jewish father. As the New Testament later tells us, he had a virgin mother but no human father. 

"Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matthew 1:22.23) 

"Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." (Romans 1:3) 

Surprisingly, the very first promise of the virgin birth (Genesis 3:15) calls the promised Deliverer: "the seed of the woman", not the seed of the man. It was God, not man, who would provide the Redeemer: nevertheless, he would be born of a woman: 

"But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman ..." (Galatians 4:4)


----------



## Artfuldodger

I believe Jesus was a man with a divine nature. He had a human mother and was the son of God.
He emptied himself of his deity to feel and go through what we had to feel. Everything he did was from or by his Father. Jesus didn't even no when he would be returning to Earth.


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## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> If we believe Jesus is the son of God who died for our sins, we are true believers in Christ. The Bible says Jesus died a man and was raised a man. Even though the Bible says this I don't believe it is a part of your salvation if you believe he was resurrected a ghost.
> You might believe Jesus is God, the son of God, or the adopted son of God. It depends mostly on what you learned from your parents or how you were indoctrinated more than what the Bible says.
> What or who does the Bible say was needed for atonement? man? blood?
> What or who does the Old Testament tell us about the Messiah?




Jesus is the Son of God, Lord and Savior.

1 John makes a strong case -- in my flawed and humble view -- that at death Jesus was both God and man.  It was of important urgency to John to rebuke the notion taught Gnostics that the Godhead was not also present with and in the perfect man at His sacrificial death.

I don't get satan's mischief here, but he prowls in this detail so my duty is completed in speaking that caution placed on my heart.  That is my interest in this discussion.

Is it sufficient to believe with utmost certainty that the Son of God had precisely the attributes God willed, from the beginning, for our perfect redemption? And that His death, descent, and resurrection perfectly redeemed those who believe?


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> The Old Testament foretold that Messiah would be a Jew, born in Bethlehem in the royal line of David the king, of the tribe of Judah. These are clear and detailed prophecies. Look at these examples:
> 
> "And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou (David) shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever." (2 Samuel 7:12,13)
> 
> "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel: whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." (Micah 5:2)
> 
> Jesus, Son of God
> The prophecies said Jesus was not only to be the son of
> David; he was also to be Son of God. This is variously described in the Old Testament:
> 
> "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." (Isaiah 7:14)
> 
> "I will be his father, and he shall be my son." (1
> Chronicles 17:13)
> 
> "He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth." (Psalm 89:26,27)
> 
> "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." (Psalm 2:7)
> 
> Therefore Messiah would be a descendant of David but not of a Jewish father. As the New Testament later tells us, he had a virgin mother but no human father.
> 
> "Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin
> shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us." (Matthew 1:22.23)
> 
> "Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh." (Romans 1:3)
> 
> Surprisingly, the very first promise of the virgin birth (Genesis 3:15) calls the promised Deliverer: "the seed of the woman", not the seed of the man. It was God, not man, who would provide the Redeemer: nevertheless, he would be born of a woman:
> 
> "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman ..." (Galatians 4:4)



The OP implicitly accepts that Jesus was the Son of God, i.e., the embodiment of the Godhead, and the perfect man, the son of Mary (in my head anyway.)

Specific questions about one person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, were raised.  

The focus in answering was on such, not on His perfect humanity.  No doubt was intended to be cast regarding any aspect of Christ's co-existing perfect humanity.

The questions that arise from man ... how can It be so ... I understood It as this and thus ... well ... .


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## Ronnie T

After thinking about this for a couple of days I believe it is possible that Jesus lived the first 30 years of His life without His Divine attributes that He had always had prior to that birth.  That He did indeed live perfectly during those first 30 years, without the power of His heavenly father interfering in His righteousness.

If that occurred, it would obviously be God's decision for that to occur.  It would not mean that Jesus' birth was less divine.  It would not mean that Jesus was not always the Messiah.

It would just mean that God intended for His Son, during those early years, to live without an inner divine influence.

But just now I recall Jesus' words to His mom, "I must be about my Father's business".    Back to my thinking corner.
.


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## Artfuldodger

In Matthew 27:45-46, it says, "Now from the sixth hour darkness fell upon all the land until the ninth hour. 46And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"

I don't believe anyone can explain the Trinity any better than the next man. Especially the divinity of Jesus or Jesus as a man.
I've tried to look at it as openly as possible and not just from my indoctrination. Like almost every other topic in Christianity, we can put on our goggles and read the Bible accordingly.
Maybe it wouldn't be too far off topic to discuss who the Old Testament said the Messiah would be or how Jesus emptied himself of his Deity while on the Earth.
This could be related to when he received the Holy Spirit and how he lived and died as a man. Also how he returned as a man of flesh and bones. "Place your hands in the nail scarred hands"
Some believe Jesus parked this body at the gates of Heaven and will re-enter it for his return trip. I believe otherwise. How we view Jesus as he is in Heaven today, has a lot to do with how we view him when he lived on the earth. So his life as a man has a lot to do with how we view God the Father, his Son Jesus, the soul of Jesus, the Holy Spirit, man, man's soul.
All of these things come together and are seperated at various time during our journey from our physical birth, death, and resurrection.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> The OP implicitly accepts that Jesus was the Son of God, i.e., the embodiment of the Godhead, and the perfect man, the son of Mary (in my head anyway.)
> 
> Specific questions about one person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, were raised.
> 
> The focus in answering was on such, not on His perfect humanity.  No doubt was intended to be cast regarding any aspect of Christ's co-existing perfect humanity.
> 
> The questions that arise from man ... how can It be so ... I understood It as this and thus ... well ... .



Regardless of how we view Jesus we could still have different views on when he received the Holy Spirit otherwise he would not have asked.
He didn't ask us how we viewed Jesus as a man before we answered.
I would agree with your last "how can it be so?"
We are all doing a bit of speculation.


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## hobbs27

What about when Jesus appeared to Abraham, or to Joshua, or was seen in the firey furnace by Nebuchadnezzar? Surely He was no mortal man.


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## StriperAddict

hobbs27 said:


> What about when Jesus appeared to Abraham, or to Joshua, or was seen in the firey furnace by Nebuchadnezzar? Surely He was no mortal man.


 
Indeed!  I quoted an article on the subject in the "We would see Jesus" thread in answer to Art's post.


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## HawgJawl

Sorry, but I'm still not clear on this.  Did God die on the cross or did a man die on the cross?


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## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Sorry, but I'm still not clear on this.  Did God die on the cross or did a man die on the cross?



Jesus is fully God and fully man.  He has both a divine nature and a human nature.


----------



## BT Charlie

Ronnie T said:


> After thinking about this for a couple of days I believe it is possible that Jesus lived the first 30 years of His life without His Divine attributes that He had always had prior to that birth.  That He did indeed live perfectly during those first 30 years, without the power of His heavenly father interfering in His righteousness.
> 
> If that occurred, it would obviously be God's decision for that to occur.  It would not mean that Jesus' birth was less divine.  It would not mean that Jesus was not always the Messiah.
> 
> It would just mean that God intended for His Son, during those early years, to live without an inner divine influence.
> 
> But just now I recall Jesus' words to His mom, "I must be about my Father's business".    Back to my thinking corner.
> .



Beautiful thoughts, Ronnie, expressing love and awe of unfathomable power, holiness, mercy and love...for us, first.  Is it not truly a gift that we can think our lifetimes on these matters, and not truly know until we are face to Face?

 I am wholly contented by what has been written in scripture, and delight in the questions, which to me reflect human brains saying, Oh, hey, just how did you do all this...for me?

This is the very consequence He knew from the fall, what He would have to do, for us.  Enmity existed between the woman and the serpent, who was told, boldly, that seed of the woman would destroy the serpent.  Satan for centuries hatched scheme after seed to take out, to blemish, to corrupt and pervet, the woman's seed.  Jesus Christ is precisely the Son of God, in all the mind boggling glory that must entail.


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## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus is fully God and fully man.  He has both a divine nature and a human nature.



Did God die on the cross?


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## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> Did God die on the cross?



Jesus' human nature died on the cross.  His divine nature is eternal and cannot die.


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## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> Sorry, but I'm still not clear on this.  Did God die on the cross or did a man die on the cross?



You are on holy ground, HJ.  Press in; do not relent! 

This IS the miracles of miracles you yearn to declare.  "I and the father are one." John 10:30.  May you be blessed ....

To your question, I answer "yes."

Is our understanding of death even applicable to the One True God who bestows life from clay, takes life, resurrects life from the dead, is both Spirit and perfect man? Jesus, in his perfect humanity, certainly died, descended into dam-ation, and was resurrected, in the flesh -- seen, heard and felt -- and ascended in flesh to heaven.  Yet we also have faith that the Godhead remained unified in Him -- this too is the boggler of all minds.

"The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again.  No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord.  I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again.  This command I receive from my Father." John 10: 17 - 18. 

Pow.  That is the sound of brains running out both of my ears, nostrils and eye holes.  The Father has given the Son authority to die, and live, again -- for you, for us ... bestowing such mercy and salvation ... unearned ... upon us... you and me.  Again, Praise God.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus' human nature died on the cross.  His divine nature is eternal and cannot die.



1 John 3:16
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

It sounds like God died.


----------



## StriperAddict

BT Charlie said:


> "The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life -- only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I receive from my Father." John 10: 17 - 18.
> 
> Pow. That is the sound of brains running out both of my ears, nostrils and eye holes. The Father has given the Son authority to die, and live, again -- for you, for us ... bestowing such mercy and salvation ... unearned ... upon us... you and me. Again, Praise God.


 
Amen !  Praise Him!   Unearned, never a debt, but a gift!
Some have traded their wrestlin' for some holy resting


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> 1 John 3:16
> Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> It sounds like God died.



He laid down his _human_ life for us.  As I said before, His divine nature is eternal and cannot die.  I refer you to the Nicene Creed:

We believe in one God, 
 the Father, the Almighty, 
 maker of heaven and earth, 
 of all that is, seen and unseen.  
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, 
 the only Son of God, 
 eternally begotten of the Father, 
 God from God, Light from Light, 
 true God from true God, 
 begotten, not made, 
 of one Being with the Father. 
 Through him all things were made. 
 For us and for our salvation 
 he came down from heaven: 
 by the power of the Holy Spirit 
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, 
 and was made man
 For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; 
 he suffered death and was buried. 
 On the third day he rose again 
 in accordance with the Scriptures; 
 he ascended into heaven 
 and is seated at the right hand of the Father. 
 He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, 
 and his kingdom will have no end.  

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, 
 who proceeds from the Father. 
 With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. 
 He has spoken through the Prophets. 
 We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. 
 We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. 
 We look for the resurrection of the dead, 
 and the life of the world to come. Amen.


----------



## BT Charlie

StriperAddict said:


> Amen !  Praise Him!   Unearned, never a debt, but a gift!
> Some have traded their wrestlin' for some holy resting



Think my hip's broke. Israel?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus is fully God and fully man.  He has both a divine nature and a human nature.



When Jesus died and his soul went somewhere to preach, was that from his human nature or divine nature?


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> What about when Jesus appeared to Abraham, or to Joshua, or was seen in the firey furnace by Nebuchadnezzar? Surely He was no mortal man.



Jesus also had a hand in the Creation, something no mortal man could have done.
But what about when he came to earth as a man? Did he empty himself?  Did he die as a man? Did his 100% mortal man part  have the soul of a 100% man?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> When Jesus died and his soul went somewhere to preach, was that from his human nature or divine nature?



I think you're referring to 1 Peter 3:19, but that passage doesn't refer to His soul.

Fix your quote in your "Bible" post and I'll reply separately.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> 1 John 3:16
> Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> It sounds like God died.



Indeed, HJ, they sound as if They -- God -- died.  Does that speak anything to your heart, or just to your wonderfully curious mind?

Oh how He loves us.  

From the beginning, now, to the end.  This appointment.

The Apostle John was concerned about apostasy involving denial of the divine nature of Jesus.  Once Jesus as God-man is confessed, the mysteries of the Godhead are as beautiful as the certainties.  We are craddled in love, as God is love, and this is Son, the One He gave so that none may perrish.

StripperAddict's piece on a companion thread explains in part the insistance upon Jesus' divine nature -- holy blood -- was required to be shed and cover us, to atone for our sin.  Blood from a mere man, filled with original sin, would not do.  A perfect man, unblemished, could not exist upon birth of a woman, without divine avoidance of the effect of original sin.  The Holy Spirit saw to that.  We are covered in divine blood of the Lamb.

Tis the season to understand the virigin birth, the avoidance of original sin, and the divinity of Jesus Christ, Son of God, who died for us, so that we who believe and call on His name may have unearned eternal life.  Unmerited grace, indee. Check out SA's piece.  Blessings!


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus also had a hand in the Creation, something no mortal man could have done.
> But what about when he came to earth as a man? Did he empty himself?  Did he die as a man? Did his 100% mortal man part  have the soul of a 100% man?



I'm thinking Jesus defeated death...just as Christians do and will. Sure this flesh will be laid down for it is carnal and belongs to earth.


----------



## centerpin fan

hobbs27 said:


> I'm thinking Jesus defeated death...



Exactly!


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> I'm thinking Jesus defeated death...just as Christians do and will. Sure this flesh will be laid down for it is carnal and belongs to earth.



Christians don't defeat death by their own power.  It is God's power that grants eternal life.

Jesus defeated death as in a victorious fight against death?  If He was able to fight, He was not really dead.

If He was really dead, it would require a separate source of power to bring Him back, which would be God.  That would make Him separate from God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I'm thinking Jesus defeated death...just as Christians do and will. Sure this flesh will be laid down for it is carnal and belongs to earth.



I'm positive he did but wasn't part of his death & resurrection  to show that we can do the same?
Wasn't his physical body dead for three days and awaken by his Father? Where was Jesus' soul during these three days?
He defeated death but he did die a physical death for three days. His physical body arose, you could touch him, he wasn't a ghost.

John 10:18
No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
(Amen to the power of God)


----------



## 1gr8bldr

centerpin fan said:


> He laid down his _human_ life for us.  As I said before, His divine nature is eternal and cannot die.  I refer you to the Nicene Creed:
> 
> We believe in one God,
> the Father, the Almighty,
> maker of heaven and earth,
> of all that is, seen and unseen.
> We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
> the only Son of God,
> eternally begotten of the Father,
> God from God, Light from Light,
> true God from true God,
> begotten, not made,
> of one Being with the Father.
> Through him all things were made.
> For us and for our salvation
> he came down from heaven:
> by the power of the Holy Spirit
> he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
> and was made man
> For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
> he suffered death and was buried.
> On the third day he rose again
> in accordance with the Scriptures;
> he ascended into heaven
> and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
> He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
> and his kingdom will have no end.
> 
> We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
> who proceeds from the Father.
> With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
> He has spoken through the Prophets.
> We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
> We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
> We look for the resurrection of the dead,
> and the life of the world to come. Amen.


This is not the Nicene Creed. This is the creed of 381 Constianople. Most sites on google have it wrong. Very few have it right. CARM also has it wrong , which I have pointed out. Here is the correct one;

The Original Creed of 325 AD
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. 

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; 

By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth]; 

Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; 

He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; 

From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. 

And in the Holy Ghost. 

[End quote]. The Holy Spirit as a coequal third person came many years later. But it was not "on the table" for debate at 325. It had not evolved yet.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> Did God die on the cross?


The scriptures declare that God can not die. And it also says "God is not a man that he should lie". Dead is dead, inactive, unable to raise himself or else he is not dead


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> What about when Jesus appeared to Abraham, or to Joshua, or was seen in the firey furnace by Nebuchadnezzar? Surely He was no mortal man.


Why do you assume these appearences to be Jesus? No scriptural foundation?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> 1 John 3:16
> Hereby perceive we the love of *God*, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> It sounds like God died.


Check the original greek. The word God is not there. The NIV has it right here "This is how we know what love is, Jesus Christ laid down his life". Whatever translation that is is rather faulty


----------



## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> This is not the Nicene Creed.



It's the creed we recite every week.  For obvious reasons, it's referred to as the Nicene Creed instead of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.


----------



## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> Whatever translation that is is rather faulty



It's the KJV.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

centerpin fan said:


> It's the creed we recite every week.  For obvious reasons, it's referred to as the Nicene Creed instead of the Niceno-Constantinopolitan Creed.


But there is a Nicene creed. It would be different if there were no Nicene Creed and the Nicene/Constanopolitan was called the Nicene creed for short. The Nicene creed was the statement of faith as defined by the council of 325. The statement of faith of 381 is very different. Crreds are made after much debate. An attempt to once in for all define a faith. Although seldom was it once in for all, they did intend it that way. So they defined "orthodox" belief. Every belief that did not fit within this scope/creed would be declared a heritic. I always point out that the trinity at this time would have been called a heresy.


----------



## HawgJawl

1gr8bldr said:


> The scriptures declare that God can not die. And it also says "God is not a man that he should lie". Dead is dead, inactive, unable to raise himself or else he is not dead



So that would mean that God did not die for our sins.  It was a man who died for the sins of all mankind.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

centerpin fan said:


> It's the KJV.


I figured so. Another KJ forcing of the scriptures is 1 John 5:7


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> So that would mean that God did not die for our sins.  It was a man who died for the sins of all mankind.


Not just a man, but God's firstborn. The thought of "firstborn" coming mostly from the OT is that the firstborn be given the power of the father. If his father was a huge cattleman, the firstborn son took over the farm just like a modern day business. The remaining sons could either go there own way or work under the "head", the firstborn. The firstborn had the power. Was given his fathers possessions, power and authority. But not after the Father died, but at a time when the father handed him over his "kingdom". Similiar to retirement when the son takes over a business. Most cities from the OT are named after the family who first settled there and built it up. Making a name for themselves. Point is that it was not just a man who died but rather God's firstborn son. Scripture calls him "the firstborn of many brothers"


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## 1gr8bldr

Proof that the trinity had not evolved at the time of the Nicene creed of 325. Valentinus, a man considered a heritic by the church, was the first to introduce a belief of the trinity as known today. He was rejected by his views. The council of 325 was debating mostly over Jesus being equal to God or being second to God. At this time in church history, no trinity existed. The majority belief was divided between "Arians", named after a belief that was faught for by a man named Arius. Arius was not the teacher but more a fighter for this established belief. Arians believed Jesus to be devine but to have had a beginning and be second to God. His opponets believed Jesus to be equal to God and to have had no beginning. Basically a fight between the original "Oneness" belief. During the council, a man named Marcelus wanted to cast negativity on Arius. He did so by associating him with Valentinus, and specifically mentions why Valentinus was a negative association. The first man, although rejected, to hold the trinitarian belief. The reason trinitarians don't pull this guy from their past as a father of their faith is that he was called gnostic. So you will not find him in Trin history. But the point is that if Marcelus wanted to make Arius look bad, how is it an insult to him if those at the council of Nicea believed in a trinity? Fact is the the trinity had not evolved yet. It came later

Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Context View Post
This pasted from Wiki
Trinity[edit]
In the fourth-century, Marcellus of Ancyra declared that the idea of the Godhead existing as three hypostases (hidden spiritual realities) came from Plato through the teachings of Valentinus,[9] who is quoted as teaching that God is three hypostases and three prosopa (persons) called the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit:

[ this spoken at the Nicene Council in an attempt to discredit Arius]
"Now with the heresy of the Ariomaniacs, which has corrupted the Church of God... These then teach three hypostases, just as Valentinus the heresiarch first invented in the book entitled by him 'On the Three Natures'. For he was the first to invent three hypostases and three persons of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he is discovered to have filched this from Hermes and Plato." [10]

Since Valentinus had used the term hypostases, his name came up in the Arian disputes in the fourth century. Marcellus of Ancyra, who was a staunch opponent of Arianism but also denounced the belief in God existing in three hypostases as heretical (and was later condemned for his views)[dubious – discuss][citation needed], attacked his opponents (On the Holy Church, 9) by linking them to Valentinus:
"Valentinus, the leader of a sect, was the first to devise the notion of three subsistent entities (hypostases), in a work that he entitled On the Three Natures. For, he devised the notion of three subsistent entities and three persons — father, son, and holy spirit."[11]
It should be noted that the Nag Hammadi library Sethian text Trimorphic Protennoia identifies Gnosticism as professing Father, Son and feminine wisdom Sophia or as Professor John D. Turner denotes, God the Father, Sophia the Mother, and Logos the Son.


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## HawgJawl

1gr8bldr said:


> Not just a man, but God's firstborn. The thought of "firstborn" coming mostly from the OT is that the firstborn be given the power of the father. If his father was a huge cattleman, the firstborn son took over the farm just like a modern day business. The remaining sons could either go there own way or work under the "head", the firstborn. The firstborn had the power. Was given his fathers possessions, power and authority. But not after the Father died, but at a time when the father handed him over his "kingdom". Similiar to retirement when the son takes over a business. Most cities from the OT are named after the family who first settled there and built it up. Making a name for themselves. Point is that it was not just a man who died but rather God's firstborn son. Scripture calls him "the firstborn of many brothers"



That makes sense.  But it also means that Jesus was definitely NOT God.  He was the Son of God and an entirely separate being.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> That makes sense.  But it also means that Jesus was definitely NOT God.  He was the Son of God and an entirely separate being.



"Jesus answered,  'I did tell you, but you do  not believe.  The works I do in my Father's name testify about me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.  My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.  I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.  My Father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.  I and the Father are one.'

"Again, his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them,  'I have shown you many good works from the Father.  For which of these do you stone me.?'  John 10:25-31.

... [keep reading John 10!].

"Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life.  The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die.  Do you believe this?'" John 11:25-26.


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> He laid down his _human_ life for us.  As I said before, His divine nature is eternal and cannot die.  I refer you to the Nicene Creed:
> 
> We believe in one God,
> the Father, the Almighty,
> maker of heaven and earth,
> of all that is, seen and unseen.
> We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
> the only Son of God,
> eternally begotten of the Father,
> God from God, Light from Light,
> true God from true God,
> begotten, not made,
> of one Being with the Father.
> Through him all things were made.
> For us and for our salvation
> he came down from heaven:
> by the power of the Holy Spirit
> he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
> and was made man
> For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
> he suffered death and was buried.
> On the third day he rose again
> in accordance with the Scriptures;
> he ascended into heaven
> and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
> He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
> and his kingdom will have no end.
> 
> We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
> who proceeds from the Father.
> With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
> He has spoken through the Prophets.
> We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
> We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
> We look for the resurrection of the dead,
> and the life of the world to come. Amen.



Why not refer to the Bible?


----------



## Artfuldodger

How is Jesus our mediator if he is his Father?
New International Version
For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

New Living Translation
For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity--the man Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

New American Standard Bible 
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,


----------



## Artfuldodger

How is it we get to see God? Who must we go through past, present, and future?

New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

New Living Translation
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

John 14:6
English Standard Version
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I want to understand who  the true Jesus  is and his relationship he has with his Father. I don't want to fall into the trap of believing in “another Jesus”. 
I want the one revealed in the Bible as the Messiah promised by the prophets of the Old Testament.


----------



## hobbs27

1gr8bldr said:


> Why do you assume these appearences to be Jesus? No scriptural foundation?



Here's just a tidbit of info from www.prophecyrefi.org.


Eusebius, a 4th-century Christian leader and writer who is often called “the father of Church history,” cited three Old Testament comings of Christ, Whom he refers to as the “second Lord after the Father” (referencing Psa. 110:1-4; Gen. 19:24).

 Genesis 18:1f: Eusebius writes: “Thus the Lord God is said to have appeared as an ordinary man to Abraham as he sat by the oak of Mamre, yet he worshiped him as God, saying, ‘O Lord, judge of all the world, will you not do justice?’ [Gen. 18:25]. Since reason would never permit that the immutable essence of the Almighty be changed into human form . . . who else could be so described as appearing in human form but the preexistent Word [Jesus], since naming the First Cause of the universe [God the Father] would be inappropriate?” 

Genesis 32:30: Eusebius writes: “Then too: ‘Jacob called the name of that place ‘the Vision of God,’ saying, ‘For I saw God face-to-face, and my life was spared.” 

Joshua 5:13-15: Eusebius writes: “Joshua too saw him only in human form.”

Eusebius puts down any attempt to diminish these comings with this argument: “to suppose that these recorded theophanies were appearances of subordinate angels and ministers of God cannot be correct, for whenever these appear to people, Scripture distinctly declares in countless passages that they are called angels, not God or Lord” 

In conclusion, Eusebius emphatically clarifies his position: “But clearly they knew the Christ of God, since he appeared to Abraham . . . spoke to Israel [Jacob], and conversed with Moses and the later prophets


----------



## 1gr8bldr

hobbs27 said:


> Here's just a tidbit of info from www.prophecyrefi.org.
> 
> 
> Eusebius, a 4th-century Christian leader and writer who is often called “the father of Church history,” cited three Old Testament comings of Christ, Whom he refers to as the “second Lord after the Father” (referencing Psa. 110:1-4; Gen. 19:24).
> 
> Genesis 18:1f: Eusebius writes: “Thus the Lord God is said to have appeared as an ordinary man to Abraham as he sat by the oak of Mamre, yet he worshiped him as God, saying, ‘O Lord, judge of all the world, will you not do justice?’ [Gen. 18:25]. Since reason would never permit that the immutable essence of the Almighty be changed into human form . . . who else could be so described as appearing in human form but the preexistent Word [Jesus], since naming the First Cause of the universe [God the Father] would be inappropriate?”
> 
> Genesis 32:30: Eusebius writes: “Then too: ‘Jacob called the name of that place ‘the Vision of God,’ saying, ‘For I saw God face-to-face, and my life was spared.”
> 
> Joshua 5:13-15: Eusebius writes: “Joshua too saw him only in human form.”
> 
> Eusebius puts down any attempt to diminish these comings with this argument: “to suppose that these recorded theophanies were appearances of subordinate angels and ministers of God cannot be correct, for whenever these appear to people, Scripture distinctly declares in countless passages that they are called angels, not God or Lord”
> 
> In conclusion, Eusebius emphatically clarifies his position: “But clearly they knew the Christ of God, since he appeared to Abraham . . . spoke to Israel [Jacob], and conversed with Moses and the later prophets


Eusebius was a chameleon. His beliefs varied over the years. But as posted, at one time, he did believe Jesus appeared in the OT. But his belief as a documenter of church history, or the scribe charged from Constantine to produce 50 bibles for each of the churches, standardized, does not validate a theopony. It is assumed by many but validated with scripture by none. Even if I were trinitarian, I would have no desire to try to force Jesus appearing into the OT. No need in going beyond what is written


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Here is a verse opposing any theopanys Heb 1:1

In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son


----------



## Artfuldodger

I think Eusebius is amking assumptions and is comparing apples to oranges. Abraham & Jacob saw God, Joshua saw Jesus. 

Eusebius writes: “Thus the Lord God is said to have appeared as an ordinary man to Abraham. (speculation)

Why didn't God appear as Jesus to Moses if that's the case?
Exodus 33:22-23
22and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> Christians don't defeat death by their own power.  It is God's power that grants eternal life.
> 
> Jesus defeated death as in a victorious fight against death?  If He was able to fight, He was not really dead.
> 
> If He was really dead, it would require a separate source of power to bring Him back, which would be God.  That would make Him separate from God.





			
				Art said:
			
		

> I'm positive he did but wasn't part of his death & resurrection to show that we can do the same?
> Wasn't his physical body dead for three days and awaken by his Father? Where was Jesus' soul during these three days?
> He defeated death but he did die a physical death for three days. His physical body arose, you could touch him, he wasn't a ghost.
> 
> John 10:18
> No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
> (Amen to the power of God)



You boys do realize that this flesh is not you if you are Christian..dont you? You are a foreigner here...you dont belong here...yet this flesh is of here but it is not you!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> I think Eusebius is amking assumptions and is comparing apples to oranges. Abraham & Jacob saw God, *Joshua saw Jesus.*
> 
> Eusebius writes: “Thus the Lord God is said to have appeared as an ordinary man to Abraham. (speculation)
> 
> Why didn't God appear as Jesus to Moses if that's the case?
> Exodus 33:22-23
> 22and it will come about, while My glory is passing by, that I will put you in the cleft of the rock and cover you with My hand until I have passed by. 23"Then I will take My hand away and you shall see My back, but My face shall not be seen."


Where does this idea come from?


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm still looking for who the Old Testament prophets said the Messiah would be? Who did people of the Old Testament think God was? Who did Paul & Jesus think God was?
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
(that tells me who Jesus' God is)

Ephesians 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
(that let's me know who Paul believed God to be)


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Where does this idea come from?



He saw saw the Prince of God's army. Who do you believe that to be? Either way it's not God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> You boys do realize that this flesh is not you if you are Christian..dont you? You are a foreigner here...you dont belong here...yet this flesh is of here but it is not you!



Well at the present I'm still in my body. A body of flesh & blood. It a temple for the Holy spirit to dwell. When I die a physical death, I will be resurrected in a physical body of flesh & bones just as Jesus was. Remember they touched his nail scarred hands?


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## hobbs27

In Genesis 18:1, the word "Lord" comes from the word Yehovah (Strong's Concordance #3068), which is generally pronounced as Jehovah (Other pronunciations include Yahweh and Yahveh. The name is so sacred that orthodox Jews will not even attempt to pronounce it. Instead they usually use the term "Hashem" or "Adonai".). We know from previous scriptures such as Genesis 12:1, 15:1, and 17:1 that the 'father of the faithful' had seen the "Lord" appearing to him as Yehovah.







In John 8:53, in a dialogue between Jesus and the Jews, he is asked the question: "Are you greater than our father Abraham, who is dead? And the prophets are dead. Who do you make yourself out to be?" 

His surprising and revealing response to this question is in verses 56-58: "' . . . Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.' Then the Jews said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old . . .' Jesus said to them, 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.' "


http://www.biblestudy.org/question/who-were-three-strangers-abraham-met.html


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## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> How is Jesus our mediator if he is his Father?
> New International Version
> For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
> 
> New Living Translation
> For there is only one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity--the man Christ Jesus.
> 
> English Standard Version
> For there is one God, and there is one mediator between
> God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
> 
> New American Standard Bible
> For there is one God, and one mediator also between God
> and men, the man Christ Jesus,




"Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over all the creatures that move along the ground.'" Gen 1:26.


----------



## BT Charlie

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, because he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BT Charlie said:


> "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, because he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Cor. 2:14.


Are you saying that the bible does not have clear context regarding the debate of whether Jesus is God, that one has to have spiritual insight in order to deduce the hidden trinity?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> How is it we get to see God? Who must we go through past, present, and future?
> 
> New International Version
> Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
> 
> New Living Translation
> Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.
> 
> John 14:6
> English Standard Version
> Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.



You make a valid point that's worth considering.
.


----------



## BT Charlie

"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, after rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.  For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.

"And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power."  Col. 2:8-10.


----------



## hummerpoo

Ronnie T said:


> After thinking about this for a couple of days I believe it is possible that Jesus lived the first 30 years of His life without His Divine attributes that He had always had prior to that birth.  That He did indeed live perfectly during those first 30 years, without the power of His heavenly father interfering in His righteousness.
> 
> If that occurred, it would obviously be God's decision for that to occur.  It would not mean that Jesus' birth was less divine.  It would not mean that Jesus was not always the Messiah.
> 
> It would just mean that God intended for His Son, during those early years, to live without an inner divine influence.
> 
> But just now I recall Jesus' words to His mom, "I must be about my Father's business".    Back to my thinking corner.
> .



The thirst for understanding given to all believers is, to me, one of the great joys of life in Christ.

Perhaps the greatest joy is seeing it in our brothers.

Love you brother.


----------



## BrowningFan

1gr8bldr said:


> Check the original greek. The word God is not there. The NIV has it right here "This is how we know what love is, Jesus Christ laid down his life". Whatever translation that is is rather faulty



Do you have an a "Original greek" copy and if so which one?


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## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> The thirst for understanding given to all believers is, to me, one of the great joys of life in Christ.
> 
> Perhaps the greatest joy is seeing it in our brothers.
> 
> Love you brother.



Yes!


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> "Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after tradition of men, after rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.  For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
> 
> "And ye are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power."  Col. 2:8-10.


Verse 9
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,

New Living Translation
For in Christ lives all the fullness of God in a human body.

English Standard Version
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,

New American Standard Bible
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

verse10
New International Version
and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority.

New Living Translation
So you also are complete through your union with Christ, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

English Standard Version
and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority.

New American Standard Bible
and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;


Trinitarians often make much noise concerning the meaning of the word theotes at Colossians 2:9. It is often translated as "Godhead" which is obviously a word conveniently employed by Trinitarians because it is more easily peppered with concepts of one Godhead of three persons. However the English word "Godhead" is a compound English word which nuances concepts totally vacant from the Greek word theotes or its form here theotetos. The verse is variously translated in major translations as follows:

    "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead corporeally." (Douay-Rheims).

    "For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form" (NIV).

    "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form" (NASB).

    "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (KJV).

    "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily" (ASV).

    "For in him dwells the whole fullness of the deity bodily" (NAB).

    "For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily" (RSV)

The Greek word theotes refers not to "God" in the sense of identifying a person but to the essence of deity and in this case the essence of deity of the Deity. Here Paul is saying that the essence of Jesus' God dwells in the risen Jesus bodily. The word theotes is not referring to "who" but "what." 

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Col2_9.html


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## Artfuldodger

Paul is speaking in the present tense

A very, very common interpretation error here is to miss that Paul is speaking in the present tense and necessarily referring to the bodily nature of the risen Christ. Paul would not have made the same statement about the incarnate and yet unrisen Jesus.

The Context

If we turn back to the preceding context at Colossians 1:19, we find that Paul refers to Jesus as the firstborn of the dead and then he says in nearly identical manner, "in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." We can see here that all the fullness dwelling in Jesus came as a result of him being the firstborn out of the dead.

Now notice Colossians 2:10 were Paul tells us that we Christians have this same fullness, an obvious reference to the Holy Spirit. The word used in verse 10 is the Greek word pleroo, "made full," and is the verb form of pleroma, "fullness," in verse 9. Now just because we too have this fullness of deity we cannot claim to be God.

Now that Paul has the risen Christ in mind is clearly proven by the context:

    For in him all the FULLNESS (pleroma) of deity dwells bodily

    and you have been MADE FULL (pleroo) in him

    you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead

    He made you alive together with Him

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Col2_9.html

(We can have this fullness of God dwell in us)


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Why not refer to the Bible?



The blue highlighted section comes straight out of the New Testament.


----------



## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> But there is a Nicene creed. It would be different if there were no Nicene Creed and the Nicene/Constanopolitan was called the Nicene creed for short. The Nicene creed was the statement of faith as defined by the council of 325. The statement of faith of 381 is very different.



The Constantinople creed of 381 expands on the Nicene creed of 325 -- mostly with regards to the Holy Spirit.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BrowningFan said:


> Do you have an a "Original greek" copy and if so which one?


I have a greek copy of what is considered a "copy" of the original. Yet that will never be proven, but is considered so by the bulk of historians. But I see your point


----------



## 1gr8bldr

centerpin fan said:


> The Constantinople creed of 381 expands on the Nicene creed of 325 -- mostly with regards to the Holy Spirit.


Yes, my point exactly. The HS as a coequal third person was not on the table at 325AD


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> The blue highlighted section comes straight out of the New Testament.



he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried. 

Why did Jesus need a woman to become incarnate?  Why didn't he just appear on the earth as a man? Is this related to an earlier question about us needing a real, true, live, man for atonement?
It must be something about Adam being the first real, true, live, man.
But a man? Possibly not just a man, but a man.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> Do you have an a "Original greek" copy and if so which one?



With no real original, and we're always bringing up wrong interpretations in most modern versions of the Bible , what is the answer?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> The Constantinople creed of 381 expands on the Nicene creed of 325 -- mostly with regards to the Holy Spirit.



Why do we need creeds? Aren't creeds the cause of Church division? Why do we need a group of men to come together to tell us what the Bible says, inspired or not?
Why can't me or you, using the Holy Spirit interpret the Bible without a council of men, no matter how noble?


----------



## BrowningFan

1gr8bldr said:


> I have a greek copy of what is considered a "copy" of the original. Yet that will never be proven, but is considered so by the bulk of historians. But I see your point




Sorry Brother .... Bothers me when I hear Good GODLY Men say they believe the Word of God from cover to cover and then say  but" The Original Greek say's"they are talking about a lost scrap of papers no one living on this planet has ever seen or can put their hands on.It's just dishonest. You have two text TYPES Syriac Antioch where they were first called Christians or   Alexandrian Egyptian  where God called Christ out of. The first sin in the Bible is not Eve eating a grape or apple it's SATAN questioning the word of God. "Yea, hath God  said "?


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## Artfuldodger

Who said Jesus was God? Well it's plain to see with these creeds that man did. Writers outside of the Bible making assumptions.
On what basis did Jesus and the early Church claim that Jesus was indeed the promised Messiah? The answer is plain. It was by contending that he perfectly fulfilled the role which the Old Testament had predicted of him.
The Apostles and Paul had to prove to the world that Jesus met these Old Testament requirements. Those early folks were basing their beliefs on that.
Would not something as important as the Messiah being God at least have been foretold in some way, form, or fashion? Why would God hide that fact from his own prophets? What purpose would it have served? What purpose is it serving now? If the Messiah had to be God for atonement, why the mystery? That seems to be something to shout from the four corners of the world.
But yet Almighty God himself tells us he sent his only begotten Son.
A good son who prays to his father. He didn't pray just for obedience. He gave his Father all of the credit for everything he did while on this Earth. He is awaiting instructions from his Father when he'll return.
I'm just going to have to use Jesus as an example of how to live, pray, and show obedience to his Father. Just as Jesus taught the Kingdom of God, so shall I yearn for it. It was never about Jesus but the Kingdom of his Father.
Jesus performed his Father's business.


----------



## BT Charlie

:





Artfuldodger said:


> Paul is speaking in the present tense
> 
> A very, very common interpretation error here is to miss that Paul is speaking in the present tense and necessarily referring to the bodily nature of the risen Christ. Paul would not have made the same statement about the incarnate and yet unrisen Jesus.
> 
> The Context
> 
> If we turn back to the preceding context at Colossians
> 1:19, we find that Paul refers to Jesus as the firstborn of the dead and then he says in nearly identical manner, "in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." We can see here that all the fullness dwelling in Jesus came as a result of him being the firstborn out of the dead.
> 
> Now notice Colossians 2:10 were Paul tells us that we Christians have this same fullness, an obvious reference to the Holy Spirit. The word used in verse 10 is the Greek word pleroo, "made full," and is the verb form of pleroma,
> "fullness," in verse 9. Now just because we too have this fullness of deity we cannot claim to be God.
> 
> Now that Paul has the risen Christ in mind is clearly proven by the context:
> 
> For in him all the FULLNESS (pleroma) of deity dwells
> bodily
> 
> and you have been MADE FULL (pleroo) in him
> 
> you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
> 
> He made you alive together with Him
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Col2_9.html
> 
> (We can have this fullness of God dwell in us)




"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham, I am." John 8:58.


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## Artfuldodger

Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. (2 John 1:9)

That's what I'm talking about, I want both of them.


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## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> Sorry Brother .... Bothers me when I hear Good GODLY Men say they believe the Word of God from cover to cover and then say  but" The Original Greek say's"they are talking about a lost scrap of papers no one living on this planet has ever seen or can put their hands on.It's just dishonest. You have two text TYPES Syriac Antioch where they were first called Christians or   Alexandrian Egyptian  where God called Christ out of. The first sin in the Bible is not Eve eating a grape or apple it's SATAN questioning the word of God. "Yea, hath God  said "?



New International Version
This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers and sisters.

New Living Translation
We know what real love is because Jesus gave up his life for us. So we also ought to give up our lives for our brothers and sisters.

English Standard Version
By this we know love, that he laid down his life for us, and we ought to lay down our lives for the brothers.

New American Standard Bible
We know love by this, that He laid down His life for us; and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

King James Bible
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.


So how do we truly know? Are there any other verses where God died in any version?


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## Artfuldodger

If I'm reading this right are some of you saying "God died for our sins?"

King James Bible
Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

These verses were about "Love." The love of Jesus and our love of neighbor. How dare us turn it into an argument verse of who Jesus is or isn't including myself.
I take it back, Jesus is love.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> :
> 
> 
> "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham, I am." John 8:58.



I've already said it before, Jesus had a hand in the Creation. You must be confusing me with that other non-Trinitarian.


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> Paul is speaking in the present tense
> 
> A very, very common interpretation error here is to miss that Paul is speaking in the present tense and necessarily referring to the bodily nature of the risen Christ. Paul would not have made the same statement about the incarnate and yet unrisen Jesus.
> 
> The Context
> 
> If we turn back to the preceding context at Colossians
> 1:19, we find that Paul refers to Jesus as the firstborn of the dead and then he says in nearly identical manner, "in him all the fullness was pleased to dwell." We can see here that all the fullness dwelling in Jesus came as a result of him being the firstborn out of the dead.
> 
> Now notice Colossians 2:10 were Paul tells us that we Christians have this same fullness, an obvious reference to the Holy Spirit. The word used in verse 10 is the Greek word pleroo, "made full," and is the verb form of pleroma,
> "fullness," in verse 9. Now just because we too have this fullness of deity we cannot claim to be God.
> 
> Now that Paul has the risen Christ in mind is clearly proven by the context:
> 
> For in him all the FULLNESS (pleroma) of deity dwells bodily
> 
> and you have been MADE FULL (pleroo) in him
> 
> you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead
> 
> He made you alive together with Him
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Col2_9.html
> 
> (We can have this fullness of God dwell in us)



Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Heb. 13:8.


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> Who said Jesus was God?






Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness ... Gen. 1:26.   

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was 
God. John 1:1. ...


The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us.  John 1:14. 

To those who through righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 ... .


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BT Charlie said:


> Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness ... Gen. 1:26.
> 
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
> God. John 1:1 ... (means, read the chapter).
> 
> 
> The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us.  John 1:14.
> 
> 
> To those who through righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1.


I have chosen not to address each one of these and like post. To much debate spurs feelings. Which I don't wish to do. I only hope to make people think about their assumptions. But if anyone wants to know how Unitarians interpret these or any other verses, I will be glad to answer them. [not to be confused with a group that calls themselves Unitarians universalist, but unitarian by definition only. One God, single in nature]


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Heb. 13:8.



I prayed and thought about this and the stories in the Old Testament where people saw God in Jesus form or human form. 
This was before he was even born a man. How could he have human form before ever being born a man? Maybe his spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

Regardless of who we believe the Father of Jesus is or that he is actually his Father, or anywhere in between. Regardless of whether we believe he is divine.
Most of us believe that Jesus is 100% man, correct. Now he might be 100%God or 100% deity, but most fo us still believe he is 100% man. For some reason he needed a human mother. Having a human mother is important for Jesus.  Jesus didn't just zap himself to Earth for a reason. God didn't just Zap himself a son to the Earth for a reason.

So in relation to an earlier question, who did the Messiah have to be? He might have been something extra, but for atonement, who did he have to be?
What must we believe for this atonement? What does the Bible say we must beleive?


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> I prayed and thought about this and the stories in the Old Testament where people saw God in Jesus form or human form.
> This was before he was even born a man. How could he have human form before ever being born a man? Maybe his spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
> ...
> 
> What must we believe for this atonement? What does the Bible say we must beleive?





With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.  Matthew 19:26.


----------



## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> If I'm reading this right are some of you saying "God died for our sins?"
> 
> King James Bible
> Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
> 
> These verses were about "Love." The love of Jesus and our love of neighbor. How dare us turn it into an argument verse of who Jesus is or isn't including myself.
> I take it back, Jesus is love.



I posted this a while back on another forum. Yes God laid down his life and here is why. If God is perfect, then LOVE is one of His qualities (I John 4:;8), and this LOVE has to be perfect LOVE. For "love to really be perfect LOVE, there has to be two parties. (One party loving the same party is not LOVE, for self-love is not real "LOVE",) God, therefore, creates a second party - MAN (Heb. 2:6) - on which to manifest this attribute. If the man does not have a free will and a free choice, then he cannot return God's love. An automaton cannot "love". The man must have a choice (Josh. 24:15), and to have a choice there must be a third party. The "eternal triangle," in this case, is a cherub who becomes a serpent. You can choose him (2 Cor. 4:4) or God (I Ki. 18:21). God allows this being (the cherub) to appear and tempt mankind so that man can freely choose GOD as an object of love. Adam chooses his wife as an object, and his wife chooses knowledge - as do all good "intellectuals"! The man falls and God redeems the man, by bearing the entire blame (Rom. 5:6- 19) for both the man and the cherub; he does this sin- bearing by coming down and dying, as a man! (Phil. 2; Isa.53; Rom. 10; 2 Cor. 3 ). Having absolved Himself of ALL guilt, it is now possible for the man to be confirmed sinless forever by receiving a sinless Saviour as his own (John 1:10- 12). Your move!
P.R.


----------



## StriperAddict

BrowningFan said:


> I posted this a while back on another forum. Yes god laid down his life and here is why. If God is perfect, then LOVE is one of His qualities (I John 4:;8), and this LOVE has to be perfect LOVE. For "love to really be perfect LOVE, there has to be two parties. (One party loving the same party is not LOVE, for self-love is not real "LOVE",) God, therefore, creates a second party - MAN (Heb. 2:6) - on which to manifest this attribute. If the man does not have a free will and a free choice, then he cannot return God's love. An automaton cannot "love". The man must have a choice (Josh. 24:15), and to have a choice there must be a third party. The "eternal triangle," in this case, is a cherub who becomes a serpent. You can choose him (2 Cor. 4:4) or God (I Ki. 18:21). God allows this being (the cherub) to appear and tempt mankind so that man can freely choose GOD as an object of love. Adam chooses his wife as an object, and his wife chooses knowledge - as do all good "intellectuals"! The man falls and God redeems the man, by bearing the entire blame (Rom. 5:6- 19) for both the man and the cherub; he does this sin- bearing by coming down and dying, as a man! (Phil. 2; Isa.53; Rom. 10; 2 Cor. 3 ). Having absolved Himself of ALL guilt, it is now possible for the man to be confirmed sinless forever by receiving a sinless Saviour as his own (John 1:10- 12). Your move!
> P.R.


 
Wonderful text. Hearty amen, with thanks


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Let us make man in our own image, in our likeness ... Gen. 1:26.
> 
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
> God. John 1:1. ...
> 
> The Word became flesh, and made his dwelling among us.  John 1:14.
> 
> To those who through righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: 2 Peter 1:1 ... .




If Jesus was God

At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)


----------



## Artfuldodger

If Jesus was God:
• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


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## gemcgrew

BrowningFan said:


> I posted this a while back on another forum. Yes God laid down his life and here is why. If God is perfect, then LOVE is one of His qualities (I John 4:;8), and this LOVE has to be perfect LOVE. For "love to really be perfect LOVE, there has to be two parties. (One party loving the same party is not LOVE, for self-love is not real "LOVE",) God, therefore, creates a second party - MAN (Heb. 2:6) - on which to manifest this attribute. If the man does not have a free will and a free choice, then he cannot return God's love. An automaton cannot "love". The man must have a choice (Josh. 24:15), and to have a choice there must be a third party. The "eternal triangle," in this case, is a cherub who becomes a serpent. You can choose him (2 Cor. 4:4) or God (I Ki. 18:21). God allows this being (the cherub) to appear and tempt mankind so that man can freely choose GOD as an object of love. Adam chooses his wife as an object, and his wife chooses knowledge - as do all good "intellectuals"! The man falls and God redeems the man, by bearing the entire blame (Rom. 5:6- 19) for both the man and the cherub; he does this sin- bearing by coming down and dying, as a man! (Phil. 2; Isa.53; Rom. 10; 2 Cor. 3 ). Having absolved Himself of ALL guilt, it is now possible for the man to be confirmed sinless forever by receiving a sinless Saviour as his own (John 1:10- 12). Your move!
> P.R.


So, what was God before he created man? Love or loveless?


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## Artfuldodger

BrowningFan said:


> I posted this a while back on another forum. Yes God laid down his life and here is why. If God is perfect, then LOVE is one of His qualities (I John 4:;8), and this LOVE has to be perfect LOVE. For "love to really be perfect LOVE, there has to be two parties. (One party loving the same party is not LOVE, for self-love is not real "LOVE",) God, therefore, creates a second party - MAN (Heb. 2:6) - on which to manifest this attribute. If the man does not have a free will and a free choice, then he cannot return God's love. An automaton cannot "love". The man must have a choice (Josh. 24:15), and to have a choice there must be a third party. The "eternal triangle," in this case, is a cherub who becomes a serpent. You can choose him (2 Cor. 4:4) or God (I Ki. 18:21). God allows this being (the cherub) to appear and tempt mankind so that man can freely choose GOD as an object of love. Adam chooses his wife as an object, and his wife chooses knowledge - as do all good "intellectuals"! The man falls and God redeems the man, by bearing the entire blame (Rom. 5:6- 19) for both the man and the cherub; he does this sin- bearing by coming down and dying, as a man! (Phil. 2; Isa.53; Rom. 10; 2 Cor. 3 ). Having absolved Himself of ALL guilt, it is now possible for the man to be confirmed sinless forever by receiving a sinless Saviour as his own (John 1:10- 12). Your move!
> P.R.



Somehow you read all of that and believe that God died for our sins?
Romans 5:17  
New International Version
For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

New Living Translation
For the sin of this one man, Adam, caused death to rule over many. But even greater is God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness, for all who receive it will live in triumph over sin and death through this one man, Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:19
New International Version
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

New Living Translation
Because one person disobeyed God, many became sinners. But because one other person obeyed God, many will be made righteous.

English Standard Version
For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

This appears to be God's wonderful grace and his gift of righteousness. 
This appears to be about the obedience of the Son to his Father.
I do not view this as God dying.
One man started it and one man finished it. Unless we want to believe God made Adam sin. In other words predestination.


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## hobbs27

If Jesus is not God..could He forgive men's sin?

And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.

2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

3- And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4- And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5- When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6- But there was certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7- Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8- And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9-  -Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10-  -But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11- -I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12- And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.


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## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> If Jesus is not God..could He forgive men's sin?



The same way that Jesus and the disciples and anyone else who "qualifies" can perform miracles.  Because God grants the power to do so in certain situations.  God just granted His Son more authority than He does other men.


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## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> The HS as a coequal third person was not on the table at 325AD



Agreed.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did Jesus need a woman to become incarnate?  Why didn't he just appear on the earth as a man?



_ ... He took to Himself a body, a human body even as our own. Nor did He will merely to become embodied or merely to appear; had that been so, He could have revealed His divine majesty in some other and better way. No, He took our body, and not only so, but He took it directly from a spotless, stainless virgin, without the agency of human father—a pure body, untainted by intercourse with man. He, the Mighty One, the Artificer of all, Himself prepared this body in the virgin as a temple for Himself, and took it for His very own, as the instrument through which He was known and in which He dwelt. Thus, taking a body like our own, because all our bodies were liable to the corruption of death, He surrendered His body to death instead of all, and offered it to the Father. This He did out of sheer love for us, so that in His death all might die, and the law of death thereby be abolished because, having fulfilled in His body that for which it was appointed, it was thereafter voided of its power for men. This He did that He might turn again to incorruption men who had turned back to corruption, and make them alive through death by the appropriation of His body and by the grace of His resurrection. Thus He would make death to disappear from them as utterly as straw from fire. _

-- St. Athanasius, _On the Incarnation_, Ch. 2, Sec. 8


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## BrowningFan

gemcgrew said:


> So, what was God before he created man? Love or loveless?



Perfect Love


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> If Jesus was God:



You'd expect the Bible to say so.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  John 1:1.

And,

Very truly I tell you, Jesus answered, before Abraham was born, I am.  John 8:58.

And,

I and the Father are one.  John 10:30.

And,

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.  Heb. 13:8.


See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks.  If they did not excape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? At that time, his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens." The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken -- that is, created things -- so that what cannot be shaken may remain.

Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe, for our "God is a consuming fire.   Heb. 12:25-28.

My thought: do not forfeit 1 atom of the power of Jesus Christ for the sake of man's doctrines, or what our pea brains can figure.  We're in the presence of eternal holiness ... .


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## Artfuldodger

John 17: 3-7

…2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4"I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do 5"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. 6"I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7"Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You;  

Is this one or two?


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## Artfuldodger

When Jesus was with God during the creation, was he in a physical body? When Jesus went back to his Father, did he not go in a physical body? Is he not at the right hand of God as we speak?
Will Jesus not return in a physical body to gather us home? When Jesus died in his physical body & his very own soul went somewhere, did not God his father awaken him? Will we not be with God and Jesus in Heaven? Will not God do some of the judging and Jesus  do some of the judging?


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## BrowningFan

1 Timothy 3:16
 (KJV)
16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

This sums it up, whom was manifest in the FLESH? And there is no controversy in the mystery of goldliness.


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## barryl

BrowningFan said:


> Do you have an a "Original greek" copy and if so which one?


My thoughts exactly!! Since there is only 24+ . . .


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## Artfuldodger

1 Timothy 3:16

New International Version
Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.

New Living Translation
Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.

You were using the wrong version. One with God inserted by trinitarians.

1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek
manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek
manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of
them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes
in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not
“God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the
mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.
http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Microsoft Word - 1 Timothy 3-16.pdf

Modern translations do not read, "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16. Trinitarians make this particular claim by quoting only from the King James Version reading of this verse. Despite the fact that scholars agree that the KJV reading is a certain corruption, Trinitarians, even those who normally do not read the KJV, continue to cherry-pick this verse from the KJV.
http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/1Tim3_16.html


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## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> So, what was God before he created man? Love or loveless?


 
My 2c is that this is a time/eternity question of which we cannot comprehend the workings of the Lord on.  (in other words... how long before "let us make man in our image...")

There are mysteries yet to be realised ya know


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## StriperAddict

BT Charlie said:


> My thought: do not forfeit 1 atom of the power of Jesus Christ for the sake of man's doctrines, or what our pea brains can figure. We're in the presence of eternal holiness ... .


 
that's a fanny smakin amen  kinda quote if I ever heard one...


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## gordon 2

Man! this is getting in the athiests forum  numbers.  I don't get my information on the topic(s) of this tread from scripture, sorry to say.

I get it from the creeds or symbols. Apostle's creed, Roman creed, Coptic creed, Nicene creed, Chalcedonian etc. I pray on professions such as this: 

Roman: I believe in God the Father almighty; and in Christ Jesus His only Son, our Lord, Who was born from the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary.


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## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> My 2c is that this is a time/eternity question of which we cannot comprehend the workings of the Lord on.  (in other words... how long before "let us make man in our image...")
> 
> There are mysteries yet to be realised ya know


But this is no mystery and he is placing conditions on unconditional love. The whole of the idea is absurd.


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## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Timothy 3:16
> 
> New International Version
> Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
> 
> New Living Translation
> Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.
> 
> You were using the wrong version. One with God inserted by trinitarians.
> 
> 1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek
> manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek
> manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of
> them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes
> in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not
> “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the
> mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.
> http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Microsoft Word - 1 Timothy 3-16.pdf
> 
> Modern translations do not read, "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16. Trinitarians make this particular claim by quoting only from the King James Version reading of this verse. Despite the fact that scholars agree that the KJV reading is a certain corruption, Trinitarians, even those who normally do not read the KJV, continue to cherry-pick this verse from the KJV.
> http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/1Tim3_16.html


----------



## HawgJawl

The same question still remains;  Did God die on the cross?  And if so, who resurrected God?

Can God die?  What part of God is mortal?


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> This was before he was even born a man. How could he have human form before ever being born a man? Maybe his spirit is the same yesterday, today, and forever.



Yes, I met a man whose testimony began "I remember when I was murdered ... ."  

So before I let Him finish his message, I blurted out "Why where you wearing a blue suit when it all went down, man?"  So I got personal with Him.  Really, I says, a blue suit?  Because blue is significant for many, many reasons.... In some cultures....on the internet at least .... blue signifies ... .

And He interrupts me, actually shushes me, so He can begin to finish.

"I remember when I was murdered, for you ..."

Oh, well that's different.  I heard you had stuff in your pants pockets when it all went down, I says, cutting Him off.  I have needs.  Must know this, now.  Why did you have that stuff in there ... because on the internet ... I saw ..... and stuff.

So, again, He shushes me.  He says I really, really do not want to miss the rest of His story....And so I says back, right back .... You couldn't have had a blue suit with stuff in your pockets, because....

Focus on holiness, boys.  Unmerited grace.  Redemption of sin and eternal life, so undeserved.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> The same question still remains;  Did God die on the cross?  And if so, who resurrected God?
> 
> Can God die?  What part of God is mortal?




Did God defeat death?  Did the Maker of Men not establish time, eternity, life itself, including its beginning, middle and end?  Are the laws that bind you constricting 1 atom of Him?

Can 1 atom of His holiness be understood by such misplaced human logic?  Will you let God be God, and your human mind be blown, in submission to such undeserved love and mercy?  

You are in the midst of the essence of holiness, the miracle of all miracles, by your own definition, and all for you...and _that_ is your question?

Oh how He loves us.


----------



## BrowningFan

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Timothy 3:16
> 
> New International Version
> Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great: He appeared in the flesh, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory.
> 
> New Living Translation
> Without question, this is the great mystery of our faith: Christ was revealed in a human body and vindicated by the Spirit. He was seen by angels and announced to the nations. He was believed in throughout the world and taken to heaven in glory.
> 
> You were using the wrong version. One with God inserted by trinitarians.
> 
> 1. Although the above verse in the NIV does not support the Trinity, there are some Greek
> manuscripts that read, “God appeared in the flesh.” This reading of some Greek
> manuscripts has passed into some English versions, and the King James Version is one of
> them. Trinitarian scholars admit, however, that these Greek texts were altered by scribes
> in favor of the Trinitarian position. The reading of the earliest and best manuscripts is not
> “God” but rather “he who.” Almost all the modern versions have the verse as “the
> mystery of godliness is great, which was manifest in the flesh,” or some close equivalent.
> http://www.christianmonotheism.com/media/text/Microsoft Word - 1 Timothy 3-16.pdf
> 
> Modern translations do not read, "God" at 1 Timothy 3:16. Trinitarians make this particular claim by quoting only from the King James Version reading of this verse. Despite the fact that scholars agree that the KJV reading is a certain corruption, Trinitarians, even those who normally do not read the KJV, continue to cherry-pick this verse from the KJV.
> http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/1Tim3_16.html



What scholars ? Who did the corruption and WHY ?  How do you or these scholars know what the originals scraps of paper said? Westcott and Hort? Russell and Rutherford?(IDIOTS)They where jokes. I believe I can put my hands on the perfect word of God without any errors and no copywrites( copywrites = MONEY). Until some of these scholars can produce an original I will stay with the one I can put in my hands.


----------



## HawgJawl

If God defeated death, then God did not die because a dead God cannot defeat anything nor do anything.

What part of God is mortal?


----------



## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> But this is no mystery and he is placing conditions on unconditional love. The whole of the idea is absurd.


 
Yes it is, I suppose I didn't 'see' conditions in his post.


----------



## centerpin fan

1.  Did God die on the cross?  No.  See #3.

2.  And if so, who resurrected God? N/A

3.  Can God die?  No.  See #1.

4.  What part of God is mortal?  0%


----------



## HawgJawl

BT Charlie said:


> Will you let God be God, and your human mind be blown, in submission to such undeserved love and mercy?



People have been telling me to stop questioning and just have faith since I was in elementary school.  I didn't work then either.


----------



## BT Charlie

HawgJawl said:


> People have been telling me to stop questioning and just have faith since I was in elementary school.  I didn't work then either.



Love is patient.  Love is kind.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> 1.  Did God die on the cross?  No.  See #3.
> 
> 2.  And if so, who resurrected God? N/A
> 
> 3.  Can God die?  No.  See #1.
> 
> 4.  What part of God is mortal?  0%



So, what part of God died on the cross?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> So, what part of God died on the cross?



None.  The Divine is eternal and cannot die.  Jesus' human nature died on the cross.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> None.  The Divine is eternal and cannot die.  Jesus' human nature died on the cross.



So then we're back to mankind being redeemed by the death of a man.


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> So then we're back to mankind being redeemed by the death of a man.



Fully man AND fully God.  

Read post 137.  If you're so inclined, read _On the Incarnation_.  It's available on the web, completely free.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Fully man AND fully God.
> 
> Read post 137.  If you're so inclined, read _On the Incarnation_.  It's available on the web, completely free.



I understand it to say that the human body (a man's body) is what died on the cross.  No part of God died.  Correct?


----------



## centerpin fan

HawgJawl said:


> I understand it to say that the human body (a man's body) is what died on the cross.



Who, not what.




HawgJawl said:


> No part of God died.  Correct?



Correct.


----------



## HawgJawl

centerpin fan said:


> Fully man AND fully God.



So then at the time of death, He was NOT fully God.


----------



## HawgJawl

It may sound like I'm arguing over terminology but its much more than that.

God sent His only begotten Son to die for our sins.  His only begotten Son was not the pile of flesh and bones that died on the cross.  His only begotten Son lived on.  His only begotten Son, the spirit, did not die on the cross.  The human body that God prepared to house His only begotten Son died.

What did this human body, which was prepared especially to house the eternal Son of God, actually cost God the Father?  How did that pay the penalty for anything?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> The same question still remains;  Did God die on the cross?  And if so, who resurrected God?
> 
> Can God die?  What part of God is mortal?


God is immortal. He can not die. The way some justify this is by saying that only his human nature died, then I grin and say well I thought only God [trin view] could pay the sin debt. If his human nature died then by your belief, your debt is not paid


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> People have been telling me to stop questioning and just have faith since I was in elementary school.  I didn't work then either.



When I was a child I ask a lot of questions, I can actually remember some of them; they were not really questions.  When I was 12 I figured out that if I applied a little effort I could figure that out for myself.  That allowed me to ask real questions, and with more effort could work out a lot of the answers.


----------



## StriperAddict

hummerpoo said:


> When I was a child I ask a lot of questions, I can actually remember some of them; they were not really questions. When I was 12 I figured out that if I applied a little effort I could figure that out for myself. That allowed me to ask real questions, and with more effort could work out a lot of the answers.


 
Same here. There's much to be said for intimate fellowship with the Lord in that special place of 'study', which is a thousand times better than just crackin open the bible as a knowledge tool.
Knowledge can get us puffy,
and sometimes worse than the shirt Jerry Seinfeld wore...  ecch!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BrowningFan said:


> What scholars ? Who did the corruption and WHY ?  How do you or these scholars know what the originals scraps of paper said? Westcott and Hort? Russell and Rutherford?(IDIOTS)They where jokes. I believe I can put my hands on the perfect word of God without any errors and no copywrites( copywrites = MONEY). Until some of these scholars can produce an original I will stay with the one I can put in my hands.


Almost All scholars agree that 1 Tim 3:16 has been changed by the KJ translators. Here is the reason they all, including trin scholars. During the second through 5th century, volumes and volumes of writings are still preserved where we have early church fathers fighting over doctrine. They constantly use the scriptures as known to them to prove their points. The amount of writings are vast. Many, many different writers during different time periods. They used scripture to validate their points. Not once was 1 Tim 3:16 ever pointed out as a proof text regarding the constant argument over whether Jesus were God. Only after the 16th century did this surface. About the time the KJ bible made circulation. If it had been original to the text, then it would have almost single handedly put to rest the argument. It would have been the "smoking gun" and it would have been fired a long time ago.


----------



## centerpin fan

1gr8bldr said:


> ... only God [trin view] could pay the sin debt. If his human nature died then by your belief, your debt is not paid



This is Anselm's satisfaction theory of the atonement.  Not everybody subscribes to it.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> I understand it to say that the human body (a man's body) is what died on the cross.  No part of God died.  Correct?


What really gets devisive is the debate of whether Jesus was under the curse of "you will surely die". All men desended from Adam were under this curse. Including Jesus because he was a man. Even if people say he was the God man, he is still under this curse as man. So all under this curse must be born again. Or as the bible actually puts it in the greek, "ye must be born from above". This is receiving the eternal Spirit of God, being born from above. Acts 2:33 tells us that he received the promise of the HS. Was the HS promised to Jesus? This happened at Jesus's baptism. The HS desended like a dove and remainded on him. He became the Son of God. The firstborn of many brothers. To those who doubted, it was confirmed by his resurection.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> What really gets devisive is the debate of whether Jesus was under the curse of "you will surely die". All men desended from Adam were under this curse. Including Jesus because he was a man. Even if people say he was the God man, he is still under this curse as man. So all under this curse must be born again. Or as the bible actually puts it in the greek, "ye must be born from above". This is receiving the eternal Spirit of God, being born from above. Acts 2:33 tells us that he received the promise of the HS. Was the HS promised to Jesus? This happened at Jesus's baptism. The HS desended like a dove and remainded on him. He became the Son of God. The firstborn of many brothers. To those who doubted, it was confirmed by his resurection.


1 John speaks much of those "born of God". We consider this born again. Notice what the better translations say, that the one born of God [Jesus, born again] keeps us safe


----------



## 1gr8bldr

1gr8bldr said:


> 1 John speaks much of those "born of God". We consider this born again. Notice what the better translations say, that the one born of God [Jesus, born again] keeps us safe


This is usually met by "Jesus was not under the curse, he never sinned. But All men were under the curse. Babies are under the curse although they have never sinned. Jesus being born again stirs great controversy. Because most think he is not in need of being born again. He did not sin, yet he was in need of being born from above because he had a mortal Spirit. He was given an immortal Spirit at his baptism. This is why he is the second Adam. Adam was originally supposed to live forever but sin brought the curse of "you will surely die". But now Jesus regained what Adam lost.


----------



## gordon 2

1gr8bldr said:


> What really gets devisive is the debate of whether Jesus was under the curse of "you will surely die". All men desended from Adam were under this curse. Including Jesus because he was a man. Even if people say he was the God man, he is still under this curse as man. So all under this curse must be born again. Or as the bible actually puts it in the greek, "ye must be born from above". This is receiving the eternal Spirit of God, being born from above. Acts 2:33 tells us that he received the promise of the HS. Was the HS promised to Jesus? This happened at Jesus's baptism. The HS desended like a dove and remainded on him. He became the Son of God. The firstborn of many brothers. To those who doubted, it was confirmed by his resurection.



This is all interesting, but my .02cent view is that Jesus's baptism was not at all what we think it might have been, and that he did not "get" the Holy Spirit for it. He was not born again for it. The Holy Spirit was in him from the get go because of an interesting relationship between the Holy Spirit and his mama. 

Many spiritual things ( and political ones too) were going on on the ground that would make our Lord chose John's baptism and getting born again was not one, nor was  Jesus in want of the Holy Spirit or getting closer to the Father. I believe that getting John's baptism was about his ministry to his people and doing as per the will of the Father. The Holy Spirit was in the drivers seat in him fully with power to open up the heavens to good news. Our Lord did not recieve from John's Baptism, he gave to it at least a snub to Temple practices and tradition, but also that baptism in a river( of the promised land) was just a good or better than purification pools and springs. Our Lord was saying..." the times are a changing boys and girls" and their going to rock your house. 

Maybe.


----------



## StriperAddict

1gr8bldr said:


> All men desended from Adam were under this curse. Including Jesus because he was a man. Even if people say he was the God man, he is still under this curse as man.


 
Terribly wrong. Jesus was not under a curse because He was born as a man ... with an inherited sin nature (as we were)...
He was under "a curse" because He choose to go to the cross and take on our sin nature...
*Galatians 3:13* 
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a *tree*”—

Link for more context: Galatians 3:12-14 

I'll also let a section of the JVMI email speak to this point, and later share some more scriptures...

A virgin birth was necessary because Adam sinned. Since Adam was the head of the human race, every person born into it through natural generation or through the process of birth inherits the old sinful Adamic nature. Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned(Romans 5:12). 
Yes, all sinned or became guilty of sin simply by inheriting the fallen nature of Adam at birth. Quirks and diseases are passed on from generation to generation. Sugar diabetes is a prime example. Likewise, the sin nature is passed on to every generation. 

Romans 5:18 is another verse that clearly teaches the necessity of a virgin birth. Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Notice that judgment came upon all men unto condemnation because of Adam's sin, but through the righteousness of Christ one may be liberated from this judgment. It is only logical to conclude that if Christ had come through the normal channels of reproduction, He would have also been born with this judgment of condemnation upon Him because He also would have inherited Adam's sinful nature. Therefore, in order that He might set men free from this condemnation, He had to be born in another manner so as not to be tainted with the old wicked nature of Adam.

There was only one way this possibility existed and that was through a virgin birth-bypassing man through insemination of the virgin's ova by the Holy Spirit. This ova lies dormant in every woman until it is activated by a male sperm. Gasoline is also dormant until activated by a spark. 
Is it an impossibility for the God, who formed man out of the dust of the ground and took a rib out of man to form woman, to place the activating seed within this holy virgin and bring forth His Son through the miracle-working power of His Holy Spirit? Of course not. This is exactly what the Father did. 


amen


----------



## StriperAddict

gordon 2 said:


> This is all interesting, but my .02cent view is that Jesus's baptism was not at all what we think it might have been, and that he did not "get" the Holy Spirit for it. He was not born again for it. The Holy Spirit was in him from the get go because of an interesting relationship between the Holy Spirit and his mama.
> 
> Many spiritual things were going on on the ground that would make our Lord chose John's baptism and getting born again was not one, nor was in want of the Holy Spirit or getting closer to the Father. I believe that getting John's baptism was about his ministry to his people and doing as per the will of the Father. The Holy Spirit was in the drivers seat in him fully with power to open up the heavens to good news.
> 
> Maybe.


 
No maybe - amen!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

StriperAddict said:


> Terribly wrong. Jesus was not under a curse because He was born as a man ... with an inherited sin nature (as we were)...
> He was under "a curse" because He choose to go to the cross and take on our sin nature...
> *Galatians 3:13*
> Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a *tree*”—
> 
> Link for more context: Galatians 3:12-14
> 
> I'll also let a section of the JVMI email speak to this point, and later share some more scriptures...
> 
> A virgin birth was necessary because Adam sinned. Since Adam was the head of the human race, every person born into it through natural generation or through the process of birth inherits the old sinful Adamic nature. Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned(Romans 5:12).
> Yes, all sinned or became guilty of sin simply by inheriting the fallen nature of Adam at birth. Quirks and diseases are passed on from generation to generation. Sugar diabetes is a prime example. Likewise, the sin nature is passed on to every generation.
> 
> Romans 5:18 is another verse that clearly teaches the necessity of a virgin birth. Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
> 
> Notice that judgment came upon all men unto condemnation because of Adam's sin, but through the righteousness of Christ one may be liberated from this judgment. It is only logical to conclude that if Christ had come through the normal channels of reproduction, He would have also been born with this judgment of condemnation upon Him because He also would have inherited Adam's sinful nature. Therefore, in order that He might set men free from this condemnation, He had to be born in another manner so as not to be tainted with the old wicked nature of Adam.
> 
> There was only one way this possibility existed and that was through a virgin birth-bypassing man through insemination of the virgin's ova by the Holy Spirit. This ova lies dormant in every woman until it is activated by a male sperm. Gasoline is also dormant until activated by a spark.
> Is it an impossibility for the God, who formed man out of the dust of the ground and took a rib out of man to form woman, to place the activating seed within this holy virgin and bring forth His Son through the miracle-working power of His Holy Spirit? Of course not. This is exactly what the Father did.
> 
> 
> amen


So we inherit nothing from our mothers?


----------



## gordon 2

1gr8bldr said:


> So we inherit nothing from our mothers?



From mothers who concieve with the Holy Spirit! You bet ya, we do.


----------



## gordon 2

This tread is very close to becoming a Wrasling Match, with someone about ready to throw a doctrine chair in the ring. Don't try anything on me, I've been know to pack baby powder.


----------



## StriperAddict

gordon 2 said:


> From mothers who concieve with the Holy Spirit! You bet ya, we do.


 
Mothers?! "Ours?"
Brother! If your birth is immaculate then please shoot me directions to your crib...

Sorry... I just had to  !


To ans the question: 
A woman was given to man as a companion/help,
and is how God chose to propagate the human race...
As far as a "sin" inheritance (nature),
Romans, etc., is clear on how the fallen nature came.

It doesn't say:
As in "Eve" all die, does it?


----------



## gordon 2

StriperAddict said:


> Mothers?! "Ours?"
> Brother! If your birth is immaculate then please shoot me directions to your crib...
> 
> Sorry... I just had to  !
> 
> 
> To ans the question:
> A woman was given to man as a companion/help,
> and is how God chose to propagate the human race...
> As far as a "sin" inheritance (nature),
> Romans, etc., is clear on how the fallen nature came.
> 
> It doesn't say:
> As in "Eve" all die, does it?



Ya right there was only one. My bad.


----------



## StriperAddict

gordon 2 said:


> This tread is very close to becoming a Wrasling Match, with someone about ready to throw a doctrine chair in the ring. Don't try anything on me, I've been know to pack baby powder.


 
Brother... I'm never a good wrastler!
But if that's what I'm doing...  choose what rings true and toss out the dross, no problemo!

Peace bros,
time to hit the trail... 



gordon 2 said:


> Ya right there was only one. My bad.


Naa, all good. I just funning it out a wee bit


----------



## BrowningFan

1gr8bldr said:


> Almost All scholars agree that 1 Tim 3:16 has been changed by the KJ translators. Here is the reason they all, including trin scholars. During the second through 5th century, volumes and volumes of writings are still preserved where we have early church fathers fighting over doctrine. They constantly use the scriptures as known to them to prove their points. The amount of writings are vast. Many, many different writers during different time periods. They used scripture to validate their points. Not once was 1 Tim 3:16 ever pointed out as a proof text regarding the constant argument over whether Jesus were God. Only after the 16th century did this surface. About the time the KJ bible made circulation. If it had been original to the text, then it would have almost single handedly put to rest the argument. It would have been the "smoking gun" and it would have been fired a long time ago.


So you are telling me that 1 Tim 3:16 God can't be found in the Textus Receptus ,Byzantine Text or Syrian Text ?


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BrowningFan said:


> So you are telling me that 1 Tim 3:16 God can't be found in the Textus Receptus ,Byzantine Text or Syrian Text ?


Have not studied that, have only studied what the scholars say about the verse in question. Is it there or is this just a question? Either way, I would have to have a refresher on those texts.


----------



## BrowningFan

1gr8bldr said:


> Have not studied that, have only studied what the scholars say about the verse in question. Is it there or is this just a question? Either way, I would have to have a refresher on those texts.



That's what I thought so there really is no debate ... My Bible uses greek text from Antioch Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch where it has God in it. You can have your greek text from Egypt. Need I say more about Egypt, we know what God thinks about Egypt. Where God is not. I just wished these scholars you and Art talk about where not so DISHONEST. I use DISHONEST lightly.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BrowningFan said:


> That's what I thought so there really is no debate ... My Bible uses greek text from Antioch Acts 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch where it has God in it. You can have your greek text from Egypt. Need I say more about Egypt, we know what God thinks about Egypt. Where God is not. I just wished these scholars you and Art talk about where not so DISHONEST. I use DISHONEST lightly.


Edit, that was not a trin site after all. I was looking for a trin validation


----------



## BrowningFan

1gr8bldr said:


> Edit, that was not a trin site after all. I was looking for a trin validation



I'm confused?


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Did God defeat death?  Did the Maker of Men not establish time, eternity, life itself, including its beginning, middle and end?  Are the laws that bind you constricting 1 atom of Him?
> 
> Can 1 atom of His holiness be understood by such misplaced human logic?  Will you let God be God, and your human mind be blown, in submission to such undeserved love and mercy?
> 
> You are in the midst of the essence of holiness, the miracle of all miracles, by your own definition, and all for you...and _that_ is your question?
> 
> Oh how He loves us.



I believe Christianity is simple and we as Man make it complicated. We can only believe in one God so somehow we must justify why we might have two with deity. Was Jesus with God at the Creation? Was he with body form? As you said he knew he would be going to earth and what he would be wearing when he would be crucified. Let us make man in our image? Sounds like they all had a body. Could the Mormons be correct after all.
That is the mystery to be left alone, the mystery of predestination. That makes this discussion useless.
Predestination is less complicated, as is Oneness. 
The Trinity is complicated, where are the Oneness believers on this forum. I welcome their input. Those Christians are holy too.
When the discussions get tough, when do we know when to "Let the Mystery be?


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> If God defeated death, then God did not die because a dead God cannot defeat anything nor do anything.
> 
> What part of God is mortal?



God defeating death is like God making a boulder so big he can't move it. God dieing for our sins is not really dying.
The death of an only child dying a slow painful death on a cross is a sacrifice.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Where is the soul of the 100% man, Jesus at right now as we speak?
The soul of God's only son? This should be the same regardless of his 100% God side.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Can 1 atom of His holiness be understood by such misplaced human logic?  Will you let God be God, and your human mind be blown, in submission to such undeserved love and mercy?


No it can't with misplaced human logic, only with the word of God. We don't need to make it any harder to understand than it is. This is why I became a non Trinitarian believer. 
I kept seeing Jesus with so much love for his Father, submission to his Father, praying to his Father, that I knew it had to be simple and it is. John 3:16 explains it better than I ever could.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

BrowningFan said:


> I'm confused?


I was looking for trinitarian scholars who did not support the KJ version of 1 Tim 3:16. But the link I gave was not trinitarian. They were only stateing what trin opposed to it said. So I edited it out. Because I did not want second hand info through a non trin site


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> God defeating death is like God making a boulder so big he can't move it.



No. To say this is saying death > God, who, after all, created what you know to be life or death.  Ask Lazarus when you see Him if death was victorious.


----------



## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> Where is the soul of the 100% man, Jesus at right now as we speak?
> The soul of God's only son? This should be the same regardless of his 100% God side.



Uh, the right hand side of the Father, in heaven, with the whole of Him? I'm not tracking your thought, Art. Sorry.  

These are clay to Potter conclusions, no? Should we tread more fearfully within this holiness?


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Uh, the right hand side of the Father, in heaven, with the whole of Him? I'm not tracking your thought, Art. Sorry.
> 
> These are clay to Potter conclusions, no? Should we tread more fearfully within this holiness?



My point is if Jesus who has his own soul is at the right hand of God as we speak, back inside of his body (the whole of him), how can he be God?
When Jesus died his 100% man side's soul went somewhere. It didn't stay in his body. When his Father resurrected him his 100% man soul went back inside his 100% man side's newly resurrected body of flesh & bones.
This body eventually went to Heaven where he sits with his own soul next to his Father. He will return to the earth in this same body which still contains his own soul.

This is basically what will happen to us (man). We are like Jesus in that the Holy Spirit dwells in us. We are 100% man yet we have God in us. What are the verses where Jesus wanted the disciples to have the same relationship he had with God? The disciples were not God. Every miracle they or even Jesus did was from the Father.
what will happen to us when we die? The Holy Spirit will leave our corpse and our souls will go somewhere only to reenter our new bodies of flesh & bones. We will have a resurrection just as Jesus did. Did his soul not reenter his body at the resurrection? Will our souls no reenter our bodies at our resurrection? Will we not all be reunited with Jesus who will eventually take us to meet his Father?


----------



## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> No. To say this is saying death > God, who, after all, created what you know to be life or death.  Ask Lazarus when you see Him if death was victorious.



I agree and maybe i'm not conveying it correctly.
God is eternal and can't die. How can God, who can't die, defeat death? 
I'm Caucasian, can I defeat sickle cell? I'm male, can I defeat cervical cancer?

God sent his only son who defeated physical death. When it comes down to mans physical birth, life, and death and all of creation God can cause or defeat physical death. God himself is eternal.


----------



## 1222DANO

HawgJawl said:


> So then we're back to mankind being redeemed by the death of a man.



perhaps he is scared?

do you fear the world around you?
are you truly terrified of the dark?

you shouldn't be God will protect you if you believe in him..


----------



## Artfuldodger

Jesus was 100% man who died for our sins. Matters not to our salvation what else was in or a part of this man other than the Holy Spirit. He was the Son of God. He perhaps could be God himself. He was a very special man.
The important part to me concerning my salvation is the 100% man part. God is the even more important part for sending him, his only son. Jesus gave every bit of the credit to his Father. His mission was to preach of his Father's Kingdom. He never referred to himself as God. 

I don't have it all figured out as nobody else does either. We all or most of us agree that Jesus the man part was needed for atonement. 
We can debate what his other part is or was while on earth or when his man part received the Holy Spirit but that's not a part of the atonement.
Jesus the 100% man part died on the cross for our sins. We can all believe the other part to be what we believe. Be it God, God incarnated, Melchizedek incarnated, the divine Son of God, Michael the Archangel or the adopted Son of God.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was 100% man who died for our sins. Matters not to our salvation what else was in or a part of this man other than the Holy Spirit. He was the Son of God. He perhaps could be God himself. He was a very special man.
> The important part to me concerning my salvation is the 100% man part. God is the even more important part for sending him, his only son. Jesus gave every bit of the credit to his Father. His mission was to preach of his Father's Kingdom. He never referred to himself as God.
> 
> I don't have it all figured out as nobody else does either. We all or most of us agree that Jesus the man part was needed for atonement.
> We can debate what his other part is or was while on earth or when his man part received the Holy Spirit but that's not a part of the atonement.
> Jesus the 100% man part died on the cross for our sins. We can all believe the other part to be what we believe. Be it God, God incarnated, Melchizedek incarnated, the divine Son of God, Michael the Archangel or the adopted Son of God.



 Jesus never declared Himself God in the beginning of His ministry, because He was meek. It is the simple fact that Jesus declared Himself God, and this was the charge used to crucify Him. Blasphemy.

 Maybe we are focusing too much on how the King of Kings and Lord of Lords came to be our Savior, and the transition from Judism to Christianity and not enough on what our Lord means to us today!


Mark 14:61-64

New King James Version (NKJV)


61 But He kept silent and answered nothing.

Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”

62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?”

And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree and maybe i'm not conveying it correctly.
> God is eternal and can't die. How can God, who can't die, defeat death?
> I'm Caucasian, can I defeat sickle cell? I'm male, can I defeat cervical cancer?
> 
> God sent his only son who defeated physical death. When it comes down to mans physical birth, life, and death and all of creation God can cause or defeat physical death. God himself is eternal.


 
Consider Genisis for the "death equation" if you will. God said man would die the day they violated His one command...  and yet Adam continued to walk the earth.
The spiritual side of Adam died on that day... I believe the cross is the total victory over this death when we believe.
And the other good news side is that "when we see Him, we shall be like Him", in that we will have a new body not like our mortal... which will never taste death again.
Bless the Lord... can't wait for that day


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus never declared Himself God in the beginning of His ministry, because He was meek. It is the simple fact that Jesus declared Himself God, and this was the charge used to crucify Him. Blasphemy.
> 
> Maybe we are focusing too much on how the King of Kings and Lord of Lords came to be our Savior, and the transition from Judism to Christianity and not enough on what our Lord means to us today!
> 
> 
> Mark 14:61-64
> 
> New King James Version (NKJV)
> 
> 
> 61 But He kept silent and answered nothing.
> 
> Again the high priest asked Him, saying to Him, “Are You the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?”
> 
> 62 Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”
> 
> 63 Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, “What further need do we have of witnesses? 64 You have heard the blasphemy! What do you think?”
> 
> And they all condemned Him to be deserving of death.



I'm sure we are focusing on the wrong things in this discussion. It's hard to stop.

And Jesus said, I am,.... That is, the Son of God; in proof of which he adds, 

and ye shall see the son of man sitting on the right hand of power; that is, of God, who is all power, the Lord God Almighty: 

and coming in the clouds of heaven; either at the destruction of Jerusalem, or at the last day.

They asked if he was the son of Christ and Jesus said "yes."
He went on to tell them the proof about sitting next to God and of his return.


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Consider Genisis for the "death equation" if you will. God said man would die the day they violated His one command...  and yet Adam continued to walk the earth.
> The spiritual side of Adam died on that day... I believe the cross is the total victory over this death when we believe.
> And the other good news side is that "when we see Him, we shall be like Him", in that we will have a new body not like our mortal... which will never taste death again.
> Bless the Lord... can't wait for that day



Adam would have lived forever as a Man had he not sinned. 

Although we do not know exactly what our new bodies will be like, we know that they will be like Christ's glorious body.  Christ's resurrected body had flesh and bones.


----------



## HawgJawl

Anytime I bring up in discussion the morality of Old Testament events such as slaughtering children I am told that nothing God does could ever be wrong or a sin because God defines what a sin is.  Even if God does something that appears to be a violation of the Ten Commandments (if we did it), it could never be a sin because only God can say what a sin is.

Based upon that principle, if Jesus was God, it was impossible for Him to sin.  Anything that Jesus did would have been alright because He makes the rules.

That does away with any value assigned to the fact that Jesus never sinning.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> Anytime I bring up in discussion the morality of Old Testament events such as slaughtering children I am told that nothing God does could ever be wrong or a sin because God defines what a sin is.  Even if God does something that appears to be a violation of the Ten Commandments (if we did it), it could never be a sin because only God can say what a sin is.
> 
> Based upon that principle, if Jesus was God, it was impossible for Him to sin.  Anything that Jesus did would have been alright because He makes the rules.
> 
> That does away with any value assigned to the fact that Jesus never sinning.



Please provide the list of actions on Jesus part that would be sinful if you did them.  Without that authenticated list your point is just talk.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Please provide the list of actions on Jesus part that would be sinful if you did them.  Without that authenticated list your point is just talk.



You might have missed his point. The point he was making is that if Jesus was God, then he could not have sinned. God can't sin. When God ends our earthly journey, it is not a sin. If I end my earthly journey, it is a sin.
How could Jesus make the sacrifice for our sins if he was never capable of sinning in the first place?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> You might have missed his point. The point he was making is that if Jesus was God, then he could not have sinned. God can't sin. When God ends our earthly journey, it is not a sin. If I end my earthly journey, it is a sin.
> How could Jesus make the sacrifice for our sins if he was never capable of sinning in the first place?



 Im not answering for Hummerpoo which may have a better answer but;

This is where that 100% man and 100% God comes in. 

 God in the flesh---God being a celestial spirit.

Flesh being of this world --not celestial, this came from Mary.

The 100% man Jesus could have sinned and was tempted, but did not.

One may even ask, if sin is the wages of death how did Jesus die on the cross when he did not sin?
 My answer to that was Jesus took on all our sins on the cross--it was our sin that put the flesh from Mary to death, it was so aweful The Father had to turn his face away from it----My God , My God why hast thou forsaken me.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> You might have missed his point. The point he was making is that if Jesus was God, then he could not have sinned. God can't sin. When God ends our earthly journey, it is not a sin. If I end my earthly journey, it is a sin.
> How could Jesus make the sacrifice for our sins if he was never capable of sinning in the first place?



I got it, I'm saying it's not a point.

On Jesus sacrifice, He didn't sin, you did.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> Im not answering for Hummerpoo which may have a better answer but;
> 
> This is where that 100% man and 100% God comes in.
> 
> God in the flesh---God being a celestial spirit.
> 
> Flesh being of this world --not celestial, this came from Mary.
> 
> The 100% man Jesus could have sinned and was tempted, but did not.
> 
> One may even ask, if sin is the wages of death how did Jesus die on the cross when he did not sin?
> My answer to that was Jesus took on all our sins on the cross--it was our sin that put the flesh from Mary to death, it was so aweful The Father had to turn his face away from it----My God , My God why hast thou forsaken me.



So again, it was only a man on the cross.  God cannot sin nor be guilty of sin and therefore cannot take upon himself sin in order to pay the penalty for it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I got it, I'm saying it's not a point.
> 
> On Jesus sacrifice, He didn't sin, you did.



I agree Jesus was capable of sin and did not sin.
The point was still missed. If Jesus was God, he would not have been able to sin. The atonement needed to come from a man that was capable of sinning.
It is a point and a good point.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I'm in the process of reading this article where the author believes the Trinitarians and Oneness believers have it wrong explaining God and Jesus. He still believes Jesus is God. 
I'm trying to follow that he believes YHWH incarnated into God & Jesus at the same time.
He calls his belief "existential distinction."
excerpts:
Reconciling the Problem: Trinitarianism and Modalistic Monarchianism

One way of reconciling this dilemma came in the form of Trinitarianism.  Trinitarians maintained that Father, Son, and Spirit are three eternally distinct persons within the one essence1 of God.  While they successfully maintained the two truths that God is one, and that Jesus is God, they did so at the expense of redefining “one” to mean a “unity” of persons within the one essence of God.  Such a redefining of monotheism brought the church to the borders of Tritheism.  While it retained its belief in monotheism on a semantic level, it abandoned monotheism on the conceptual level.

A quite different attempt to reconcile this dilemma was made in the form of Modalistic Monarchianism.2  They maintained that Father, Son, and Spirit were three distinct modes of revelation of a singular divine person.  Some Modalists argued that “Son” just refers to Jesus' humanity, while “Father” just refers to Jesus’ deity.  For example, in The Refutation of all Heresies IX, Hippolytus said of Callistus’ teaching that he did not want to say the Father suffered, but only the Son, and the Father along with him.  Such an explanation clearly demonstrates the tendency to ascribe “Son” only to Christ's humanity, rather than His whole person.

In summary, the incarnational becoming was not God coming to be in man, or God changing into man, but God coming to exist as man through a personal act of incorporating human nature into His person.  Only by understanding the incarnational becoming as a personal and existential becoming, wherein God assumes a human mode of existence, can we maintain the three Christological maxims, a genuine distinction between the Father and Son, and avoid splitting up the unity of Christ's person.  It is to an exploration of this existential distinction that we now turn our attention.

Other Modalists tried solving the  conundrum by removing any real distinction between Father and Son.  They argued that the apparent distinctions were only nominal—applicable to God in different modes—not indicatative of any real metaphysical distinction.
Trinitarians reacted fervently to this explanation because it disregarded the hundreds of distinctions we find in the NT between Father and Son.4  They maintained that the distinctions had to be genuine.  In this they were right.  Where they were mistaken was in their understanding of the nature and duration of the distinctions.  They wrongly interpreted them as eternal and personal within God’s very essence, rather than temporal and incarnational.  

http://www.onenesspentecostal.com/ugstsymposium.htm


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree Jesus was capable of sin and did not sin.
> The point was still missed. If Jesus was God, he would not have been able to sin. The atonement needed to come from a man that was capable of sinning.
> It is a point and a good point.



No the point is He did not, I did.
You are denying that He can provide the sacrifice that I must have in order for God's justice to be satisfied.
Justice and mercy are incompatable.  Holy God must be both just and merciful.  The holy solution to that crisis was acheived when He satisfied the justice for me and you, which is the holy mercy.

The whole non-point is based on a fallacious understanding of God.

Back to work.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> So again, it was only a man on the cross.  God cannot sin nor be guilty of sin and therefore cannot take upon himself sin in order to pay the penalty for it.



 God does not sin, but God could take sin upon Himself just as He did while on the cross in the flesh.

 If you limit your understanding of this to the rules of this world you will never understand a portion of it.

 John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> The holy solution to that crisis was acheived when He satisfied the justice for me and you, which is the holy mercy.



The justice was satisfied by the death of _______ ?

A man or God is the question.

The death of a mere man could not satisfy this justice.

The death of God is impossible.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> God does not sin, but God could take sin upon Himself just as He did while on the cross in the flesh.
> 
> If you limit your understanding of this to the rules of this world you will never understand a portion of it.
> 
> John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?



If God took the sins of the world upon Himself and died on the cross, then God basically committed suicide and he is gone.  If God can die, then who is there to resurrect God?


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> The justice was satisfied by the death of _______ ?
> 
> A man or God is the question.
> 
> The death of a mere man could not satisfy this justice.
> 
> The death of God is impossible.



Do we think that God has ears?
Do we think that God has eyes?
Do we think that God has a larynx?
Do we think that God hears?
Do we think that God sees?
Do we think that God speaks?

Do we think that God thinks?

We must use these terms to communicate about God.
God has stooped down to communicate to us.
But if we answer yes to any of those questions
we believe we can keep Him down.
God does not fit in our box of flesh!

It's not a question of blind faith in God,
it's a question of being blind to self.


----------



## hobbs27

HawgJawl said:


> If God took the sins of the world upon Himself and died on the cross, then God basically committed suicide and he is gone.  If God can die, then who is there to resurrect God?



 If God were of this world, then maybe your assumptions would be correct. Since you insist on making God follow the rules of what you know as eartly matters then I apologize because I do not qualify in explaining what you want to be true.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> Do we think that God has ears?
> Do we think that God has eyes?
> Do we think that God has a larynx?
> Do we think that God hears?
> Do we think that God sees?
> Do we think that God speaks?
> 
> Do we think that God thinks?
> 
> We must use these terms to communicate about God.
> God has stooped down to communicate to us.
> But if we answer yes to any of those questions
> we believe we can keep Him down.
> God does not fit in our box of flesh!
> 
> It's not a question of blind faith in God,
> it's a question of being blind to self.



In other words, you don't know.

This is the foundation of Christianity.  This is John 3:16.

Many people are satisfied with saying I believe "IT" with all my heart, but I don't really know what "IT" is.


----------



## HawgJawl

hobbs27 said:


> If God were of this world, then maybe your assumptions would be correct. Since you insist on making God follow the rules of what you know as eartly matters then I apologize because I do not qualify in explaining what you want to be true.



I can look to scripture for a definition of a blood sacrifice.  I am applying scripture's definition, not my own.


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> In other words, you don't know.
> 
> This is the foundation of Christianity.  This is John 3:16.
> 
> Many people are satisfied with saying I believe "IT" with all my heart, but I don't really know what "IT" is.



No it's not John 3:16, or even close to it.

No, I don't understand the eternal relationship of Divinity, and you are not going in that direction.  Your asking that another man accept your illogical parameters.  That's exactly what takes place on the AAA.

Both Hobbs and I are trying to tell you the same thing in different terms, but you insist on staying in the same rut.


----------



## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> In other words, you don't know.
> 
> This is the foundation of Christianity.  This is John 3:16.
> 
> Many people are satisfied with saying I believe "IT" with all my heart, but I don't really know what "IT" is.



My view is as long as we believe John 3:16 we don't have to know. People are saved every day without understanding every concept of who Jesus is. All these new believers know is he is the Son of God who died for their sins. That's all that is required of them. 
Man is the one trying to add to this requirement. man is the one adding to the meaning of Salvation. John 3:16 says nothing of who Jesus is or isn't other than being the Son of God. 
We can learn and study later about who Jesus is but "if we are saved, we are saved." God doesn't take your salvation away if you switch from Oneness to Trinitarianism.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> No it's not John 3:16, or even close to it.
> 
> No, I don't understand the eternal relationship of Divinity, and you are not going in that direction.  Your asking that another man accept your illogical parameters.  That's exactly what takes place on the AAA.
> 
> Both Hobbs and I are trying to tell you the same thing in different terms, but you insist on staying in the same rut.



What I'm hearing you say is that "IT" can't be understood by humans.  I'm also told that I am supposed to believe "IT" with all my heart.  But I should stop asking what "IT" is.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Do we have any members who subscribe to the nontrinitarian theological doctrine of Oneness? This could also be called modalistic.
They hold the view that there is one God who can be designated by three different names—‘Father,’ ‘Son,’ and ‘Holy Spirit’—at different times, but these three are not distinct persons. Instead they are different modes (thus, modalism) of the one God. Thus, God can be called ‘Father’ as the Creator of the world and Lawgiver; he can be called ‘Son’ as God incarnate in Jesus Christ; and he can be called ‘Holy Spirit’ as God in the church age. Accordingly, Jesus Christ is God and the Spirit is God, but they are not distinct persons.


----------



## HawgJawl

hummerpoo said:


> and you are not going in that direction.  Your asking that another man accept your illogical parameters.  That's exactly what takes place on the AAA.



I'm not presenting an explanation and asking others to accept it.  You will notice a whole lot of question marks in my posts.  I am repeatedly asking a simple question but getting many conflicting answers.

If me asking the question upsets you, how do you feel about all the others who provide answers which conflict with yours?


----------



## hummerpoo

HawgJawl said:


> What I'm hearing you say is that "IT" can't be understood by humans.  I'm also told that I am supposed to believe "IT" with all my heart.  But I should stop asking what "IT" is.



Not exactly ... I'm saying you should stop trying to dig a well in the Sahara Desert with a pair of knitting needles and asking everyone to carry water to you.


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Terribly wrong. Jesus was not under a curse because He was born as a man ... with an inherited sin nature (as we were)...
> He was under "a curse" because He choose to go to the cross and take on our sin nature...
> *Galatians 3:13*
> Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a *tree*”—
> 
> Link for more context: Galatians 3:12-14
> 
> I'll also let a section of the JVMI email speak to this point, and later share some more scriptures...
> 
> A virgin birth was necessary because Adam sinned. Since Adam was the head of the human race, every person born into it through natural generation or through the process of birth inherits the old sinful Adamic nature. Wherefore, as by one man [Adam] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned(Romans 5:12).
> Yes, all sinned or became guilty of sin simply by inheriting the fallen nature of Adam at birth. Quirks and diseases are passed on from generation to generation. Sugar diabetes is a prime example. Likewise, the sin nature is passed on to every generation.
> 
> Romans 5:18 is another verse that clearly teaches the necessity of a virgin birth. Therefore as by the offence of one [Adam] judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [Christ] the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
> 
> Notice that judgment came upon all men unto condemnation because of Adam's sin, but through the righteousness of Christ one may be liberated from this judgment. It is only logical to conclude that if Christ had come through the normal channels of reproduction, He would have also been born with this judgment of condemnation upon Him because He also would have inherited Adam's sinful nature. Therefore, in order that He might set men free from this condemnation, He had to be born in another manner so as not to be tainted with the old wicked nature of Adam.
> 
> There was only one way this possibility existed and that was through a virgin birth-bypassing man through insemination of the virgin's ova by the Holy Spirit. This ova lies dormant in every woman until it is activated by a male sperm. Gasoline is also dormant until activated by a spark.
> Is it an impossibility for the God, who formed man out of the dust of the ground and took a rib out of man to form woman, to place the activating seed within this holy virgin and bring forth His Son through the miracle-working power of His Holy Spirit? Of course not. This is exactly what the Father did.
> 
> amen



Are you saying Jesus could not sin because he didn't have any human blood? If he could not sin the he could not defeat sin. Did his mother's blood have any of her father's blood? If so then he got paternal blood. 
He was also 100% man, with !00% man blood and 100% man soul. He had to have blood to defeat sin.

Maybe sin isn't even passed through blood. Maybe just being born a human is all that is required.
This is an interesting read on sin and blood:


These same authors go on to indicate that when Adam sinned by eating of the "tree of theknowledge of good and evil," he contracted "blood poisoning."3 Somehow or other his blood became spiritually tainted, and thenceforth the poison of sin was carried in the blood-line of the human race. Natural human blood is thus regarded as "sinful blood."4 (Question: On what basis can the adjective "sinful" be properly applied to the amoral physical substance of human blood?)

   They continue to conjecture that since Jesus was supernaturally conceived of the Holy Spirit, He never had any sinful human blood in His veins, no blood of the blood-line of Adam and the human race, no tainted, contaminated, sinful blood.5 (What does it mean then that He was "born of a woman" Galatians 4:4?) They go on to proclaim that God's life flowed in the blood-stream of Jesus,6 "supernatural blood,"7 the "precious blood" (I Peter 1:19), affirming that "Jesus' blood was eternal life."8 It is even advocated that Jesus had the pure, divine "blood-type"9 of God. (There is no Biblical basis to advocate that God has a blood-type since Jesus says "God is Spirit" - John 4:24.)

http://www.christinyou.net/pages/bloodchrst.html


----------



## gordon 2

hummerpoo said:


> Do we think that God has ears?
> Do we think that God has eyes?
> Do we think that God has a larynx?
> Do we think that God hears?
> Do we think that God sees?
> Do we think that God speaks?
> 
> Do we think that God thinks?
> 
> We must use these terms to communicate about God.
> God has stooped down to communicate to us.
> But if we answer yes to any of those questions
> we believe we can keep Him down.
> God does not fit in our box of flesh!
> 
> It's not a question of blind faith in God,
> it's a question of being blind to self.



 yea!  Likewise using the so called "fallen nature"  of man as perspective to wax attributes to the devine, I doubt is good karma. A better self would be what we have in our new Adam. I think faith should be stacked that way, and our outlook, instead of our eye on the goobers who skipped Eden with the new invention of a pair of Depends.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father, when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto Him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." - 1Cor.15:24,28


----------



## Artfuldodger

This excerpt explains my beliefs about Jesus:

So, while some teach that there are "three Gods in one", others say that Jesus is the only God there is, but the truth lies between these two errors. The Father created the Son, "the firstborn of every creature" (Col.1:15), and the Son created all other things. This is easily understood and clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures. Neither the doctrine of the "holy trinity" nor the doctrine of "Jesus only" is true. There are in heaven two persons who are worthy to receive worship: The Father and the Son.

Jesus did say, "I and my Father are one" (Jn.10:30), but the issue is, "how are they one?" The answer is found in Jesus' prayer to his Father, just hours before his crucifixion. In that compassionate prayer for his followers, Jesus pleaded with the Father "that they may be one as we are" (Jn.17:11). So, the question is, "How are believers `one' in Christ?" For in the same way that we are "one" in Christ, the Father and the Son are also "one".

Surely, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, it is clear to see that this unity is in spirit, not in body. If Jesus were the Father Himself, and we are to be made one as he is one with the Father, then all believers must become the same person. This is nonsense. When believers are made one as Christ and his Father are one, we are united in spirit and mind, not in person. You are you, and I am I. We will never become one person, and neither will the Father and the Son. Nevertheless, in Christ, believers may be "likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" (Phip. 2:2).

Jesus is not the Father. But he walked so meekly, doing the Father's will, that anyone who saw Jesus was seeing the heart of God in action (Jn.14:7). Jesus showed us the Father (Jn.14:8-9). To know Jesus is to know the Father because Jesus does only what pleases the Father. Jesus and his Father are of the same mind, the same judgment, the same love and purpose. This is the unity that Jesus prayed would be given to us, and it must grieve him deeply to see the called out ones so completely divided and confused by the doctrines of Christianity! If there is any prayer we can pray that must be acceptable with God, surely it is that all His children walk together in the unity of the Spirit and strive together for "the faith that was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

http://www.isaiah58.com/questions/q_oftheweek36.html#top


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Do we think that God has ears?
> Do we think that God has eyes?
> Do we think that God has a larynx?
> Do we think that God hears?
> Do we think that God sees?
> Do we think that God speaks?
> 
> Do we think that God thinks?
> 
> We must use these terms to communicate about God.
> God has stooped down to communicate to us.
> But if we answer yes to any of those questions
> we believe we can keep Him down.
> God does not fit in our box of flesh!
> 
> It's not a question of blind faith in God,
> it's a question of being blind to self.



Does the Earth have four corners? Do we love with our hearts? Does sin come from blood? Does God have a back side? Does God have emotions? 
Are we made in the image of God? Did Jesus resurrect in a physical body? Will we? 
We like to say how spiritual Christianity is but God put us in a box of flesh. 
You keep trying to put God in a box of flesh by making Jesus, God the Father.


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> yea!  Likewise using the so called "fallen nature"  of man as perspective to wax attributes to the devine, I doubt is good karma. A better self would be what we have in our new Adam. I think faith should be stacked that way, and our outlook, instead of our eye on the goobers who skipped Eden with the new invention of a pair of Depends.



Why do you reckon Jesus emptied himself of his divinity? He needed to feel and be everything Man was. He needed to be capable of temptation and sin in order to defeat it. 
You can't defeat something that you aren't subject too. Jesus was well aware  of what being a 100% man was all about. You can view his 100% divine side all you want but he dumped that to become a man. Jesus defeated sin by not sinning. There would have been no reason to tempt Jesus he could not have fallen for it.
God through his Son defeated sin & death on the cross.

Hebrews 2:14-18  Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.


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## HawgJawl

Did God suffer at the hands of man?


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## Artfuldodger

If Jesus wasn't a man with his own free will to sin or not sin, there was really no reason For God to send him. He could have just made it so. Jesus wasn't a robot either. 
Freewill too is a part of being a man. Jesus had his own soul. He had a human mother. He got angry, show compassion, loved. He prayed to his Father. He constantly asked his Father for guidance. He constantly asked his Father what he wanted him to do.


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## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> Did God suffer at the hands of man?



Yes but it wasn't the agony that Jesus felt. It was the agony of a loving father seeing his child suffer. 
He did not suffer physically at the hands of man as Jesus did.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the Earth have four corners? Do we love with our hearts? Does sin come from blood? Does God have a back side? Does God have emotions?
> Are we made in the image of God? Did Jesus resurrect in a physical body? Will we?
> We like to say how spiritual Christianity is but God put us in a box of flesh.
> You keep trying to put God in a box of flesh by making Jesus, God the Father.



Huh...Are you saying that I said that?


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Does the Earth have four corners? Do we love with our hearts? Does sin come from blood? Does God have a back side? Does God have emotions?
> Are we made in the image of God? Did Jesus resurrect in a physical body? Will we?
> We like to say how spiritual Christianity is but God put us in a box of flesh.
> You keep trying to put God in a box of flesh by making Jesus, God the Father.



Have you not said that the Holy Spirit helps, not fixes but helps, with our flesh problem?


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## HawgJawl

All this talk about death of the physical body compared to death of the spiritual body got me to thinking.  What is the price for original sin?  Is it death of the natural body or death of the spiritual body?

If the price for our inherited original sin is death of the physical body, and Jesus paid that price for all of us, why do we still die physically?

If the price for our inherited original sin is death of the spiritual body, and Jesus paid that price for all of us, then the Son of God died.  He died spiritually, not just physically.  He is no more.  If He did not die spiritually, he did not pay the price.


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## Israel

HawgJawl said:


> Did God suffer at the hands of man?



Excellent question.


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## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do you reckon Jesus emptied himself of his divinity? He needed to feel and be everything Man was. He needed to be capable of temptation and sin in order to defeat it.
> You can't defeat something that you aren't subject too. Jesus was well aware  of what being a 100% man was all about. You can view his 100% divine side all you want but he dumped that to become a man. Jesus defeated sin by not sinning. There would have been no reason to tempt Jesus he could not have fallen for it.
> God through his Son defeated sin & death on the cross.
> 
> Hebrews 2:14-18  Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might break the power of him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil— 15 and free those who all their lives were held in slavery by their fear of death. 16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, fully human in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people. 18 Because he himself suffered when he was tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.



Good points. This "emptied himself of devinity" where is that from? I've heard that before. It does not ring like a tuned banjo to me? 

I think he was both in natures devine and human fully God. Does not Hebrews say his body was/is a temple or a house? and our house at that?

 I don't know but as a church are we not of his body, our Lord the head. Now the church may well empty itself in sacrafice being  of one accord, the body with the head but is it emptied of being a  His church?

 And our own bodies temples and  Him there in santuary do we empty ourselves of our bodies, and more to His  likeness? Do we become more godly or more manly? We become more men according to devine design.

So perhaps in the flesh he became totally, fully God to us both what was created in us in likeness to Him and in likeness also that could cleave to unfaithfulness and so taking it up all us along with Him and he emptied of Himself of nothing.... In forgiveness and sacrefice he added to Himself you and I, et all. if we so chose to be to Him, in Him and Him in us.

Maybe...  Maybe not...


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## BT Charlie

1 Peter 1:17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Foreordained to suffer such, and voluntarily did so.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

But suffer, for man, exposed to the entirety of satan's rage, at the hands of men... yes.


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## hummerpoo

gordon 2 said:


> This "emptied himself of devinity" where is that from?



I don't see it in Phil. 2.


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## 1gr8bldr

hummerpoo said:


> I don't see it in Phil. 2.


Philipian 2 is refering to the original sin of Eve. She wanted to be like God. His being worshipped, etc. To rival God. But Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be "grasped", attained, etc. But rather he did the opposite and humbled himself, being a server, not the served. Being found as a man, Realizing that he was a man, just a man, created to please God, not rival him. He humbled himself and was obedient, serving our ultimate need, therefore God was pleased and displayed one of his chief attributes that whomever humbles himself will be exalted, therefore God gave him a name above all others, Lord/master


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Have you not said that the Holy Spirit helps, not fixes but helps, with our flesh problem?



Yes but in respect to this debate I'm referring to flesh as body. You are trying to take Jesus the man's flesh off the cross and replace it with God. You are saying since Jesus is God his body is not flesh as our bodies are flesh. 

If I'm reading you wrong, I apologize.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> I don't see it in Phil. 2.



Philippians 2:6-8
6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross


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## Artfuldodger

HawgJawl said:


> All this talk about death of the physical body compared to death of the spiritual body got me to thinking.  What is the price for original sin?  Is it death of the natural body or death of the spiritual body?
> 
> If the price for our inherited original sin is death of the physical body, and Jesus paid that price for all of us, why do we still die physically?
> 
> If the price for our inherited original sin is death of the spiritual body, and Jesus paid that price for all of us, then the Son of God died.  He died spiritually, not just physically.  He is no more.  If He did not die spiritually, he did not pay the price.



Interesting thought process, are you a "right brained" goober? I am a "right brained" goober.

His death gave us everlasting life. I'm going to say it's both. Jesus resurrected in a real glorified body of flesh & bones. We will do the same. So even though we discard part of our old bodies including sin & our blood, we are still resurrected in a glorified body of flesh & bones same as Jesus. 
Our spirit/soul will reenter this glorified body. 
It is a physical body that is more spiritual than before we died. 
Even after death I don't see everything as just souls and spirits. 
I envision going to Heaven in some type of body as Jesus did. I'm going to need it to glorify God and enjoy Heaven. I don't actually know where our souls go at death but I don't think it's Heaven. You need a glorified body for that. If my soul was all that's needed in Heaven, it would not need to return for a body. It could just stay up there in the first place. I believe we go to a place called Paradise. Maybe the same place Jesus' soul went when he died, before his resurrection.
Death is death and life is life.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes but in respect to this debate I'm referring to flesh as body. You are trying to take Jesus the man's flesh off the cross and replace it with God. You are saying since Jesus is God his body is not flesh as our bodies are flesh.
> 
> If I'm reading you wrong, I apologize.



Apology accepted ... I guess.  This is the second time you said I said, and have not a clue where you got it or what I'm being accused of.  You might go to #235 a start back from there ... maybe, I don't know.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Philippians 2:6-8
> 6who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross



Now, I will attempt to show why I don't see "emptied himself from divinity" in Phil. 2., which is not in any way an attempt to answer the question of "who died on the cross" {edit-as it was introduced and discussed above} which is too deep for me, but is intended to address the incarnation.

Please bare with me on the paraphase, I know it's rough.

Phil. 2:
1.  Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love , if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
 2.  make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
If what Christ taught about love has been received in Spirit’ resulting in love’
I will see unity of action and purpose.

 3.  Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
 4.  do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
Don’t think of yourselves only, but always consider others more important

 5.  Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
 6.  who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Do like Christ, who did not hold on to His equality with God

7.  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.
He gave up the eminence/distinction/status He had in heaven to be a servant. 
{Note “the form of God” (morphe theos) in Vs. 6, and “the form of a bond-servant” (morphe doulos) in Vs. 7}.

 Thayer’s Greek Definitions: Morphe = 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
2) external appearance.


The subject is humility, selflessness; the example is Christ.  He gave up position; not essence.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Apology accepted ... I guess.  This is the second time you said I said, and have not a clue where you got it or what I'm being accused of.  You might go to #235 a start back from there ... maybe, I don't know.



I don't have a clue either and now I must eat my words.  You truly didn't say what I accused you of. It must be a case of mistaken identity. Thanks for being persistent in a nice way to bring this to my attention. Now you can really accept my apology as I must humble myself.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't have a clue either and now I must eat my words.  You truly didn't say what I accused you of. It must be a case of mistaken identity. Thanks for being persistent in a nice way to bring this to my attention. Now you can really accept my apology as I must humble myself.



It's done, and forgotten.


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## Artfuldodger

hummerpoo said:


> Now, I will attempt to show why I don't see "emptied himself from divinity" in Phil. 2., which is not in any way an attempt to answer the question of "who died on the cross" {edit-as it was introduced and discussed above} which is too deep for me, but is intended to address the incarnation.
> 
> Please bare with me on the paraphase, I know it's rough.
> 
> Phil. 2:
> 1.  Therefore if there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love , if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion,
> 2.  make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose.
> If what Christ taught about love has been received in Spirit’ resulting in love’
> I will see unity of action and purpose.
> 
> 3.  Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind regard one another as more important than yourselves;
> 4.  do not {merely} look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others.
> Don’t think of yourselves only, but always consider others more important
> 
> 5.  Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
> 6.  who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
> Do like Christ, who did not hold on to His equality with God
> 
> 7.  but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men.
> He gave up the eminence/distinction/status He had in heaven to be a servant.
> {Note “the form of God” (morphe theos) in Vs. 6, and “the form of a bond-servant” (morphe doulos) in Vs. 7}.
> 
> Thayer’s Greek Definitions: Morphe = 1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision
> 2) external appearance.
> 
> 
> The subject is humility, selflessness; the example is Christ.  He gave up position; not essence.



While I agree those verse teach humility, they with other verses teach Jesus had to give up his divinity to experience what it was like to be a man.


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## Artfuldodger

Scripture teaches that since death came through a man (Adam), it was necessary for a man to defeat death through the resurrection from the dead (see 1 Corinthians 15:21 below). At His baptism, the Holy Spirit came down and indwelled Jesus. It was by the power of the Holy Spirit, not His own power, that Jesus performed miracles and completed the work that the Father had given Him. So, instead of being "fully God and fully man" at the same time, Jesus, eternal God and Creator, emptied Himself to be fully man indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

The reason that this is so important is that the Holy Spirit that indwelled Jesus is the same Holy Spirit that now lives in you. Jesus lived by faith and the power of the Holy Spirit in Him. Now, Jesus does His works through you by His Spirit. You cannot do the works of God by your own human strength and determination. Jesus came not only to save you but also to be your model for a life of faith.
http://www.truegospelofjesuschrist.org/jesus_emptied_himself_verses1


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## Artfuldodger

Philippians 2: 5-8 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, [6] who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, [7] but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. [8] Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a Cross.

Matthew 12:28 (Jesus speaking) But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

Hebrews 2:9  But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

John 17:5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (Jesus had the glory of God prior to emptying Himself; when He returned to heaven, He once again assumed His glory.)
http://www.truegospelofjesuschrist.org/jesus_emptied_himself_verses1


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## Artfuldodger

Matthew 3:16 After being baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and lighting on Him, (the Holy Spirit was Jesus' power to do the works the Father had given Him; as a believer, you have this same Holy Spirit living in your born again spirit at all times.)

Compare ... Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.
With ... James 1:13b ... for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone. (Although Jesus is the eternal God and Creator, He emptied Himself in order to be your Savior and your model for a life of faith. Jesus, while here on this earth, could be tempted because He became fully human; God cannot be tempted.)

Matthew 12:18 Behold, my servant whom I have chosen; my beloved in whom my soul is well-pleased; I will put my Spirit upon him, and he shall proclaim justice to the Gentiles.

Mark 13:32 But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (Being human while here on this earth, Jesus did not know all things.)

Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan and was led around by the Spirit in the wilderness

Luke 4:14 And Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about Him spread through all the surrounding district.

John 1:14 And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

John 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."

John 8:28 Jesus therefore said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me.

John 14:10b ... The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father abiding in Me does His works.

Acts 2:22 Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know - (It was the Father who performed miracles and wonders through Jesus; in His own human power, Jesus could not do these miracles.)

Acts 10:38 You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Acts 17:31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. Note: This verse shows that Jesus had to empty Himself to become fully human in order to be the Savior of the world. A sinful human or even an angel would not have been a sufficient sacrifice to overcome death caused by sin. Only a sinless human could be the necessary sacrifice, and only Jesus qualified as the "lamb without blemish."

2 Corinthians 8:9 For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though He was rich, yet for your sake He became poor, that you through His poverty might become rich.

Colossians 1:15 And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

Colossians 1:19 For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him (This is speaking of the fullness of the Holy Spirit who dwelled in Jesus.)

Colossians 2:9 For in Him (Jesus) all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, (the fullness of God now dwells in all believers because God has given His Holy Spirit.)

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin.

1 John 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God;

2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist.
http://www.truegospelofjesuschrist.org/jesus_emptied_himself_verses1


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## Artfuldodger

All I'm trying to convey is Jesus gave up his divinity while on earth as a man. I'm not trying to convey that Jesus was just a man before or after he was on this earth.
This is not a Trinity concept. This is not a Oneness concept. This concept doesn't even deny that Jesus is God. This is a Biblical concept. You can be a Trinitarian and believe this concept.


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## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> While I agree those verse teach humility, they with other verses teach Jesus had to give up his divinity to experience what it was like to be a man.



While we agree that Jesus's experience of incarnation qualified Him to be the Perfect High Priest (Heb. 3 and 5, I think) I have found no reason to believe He had to give up His divinity to achieve that purpose.

God willing, we may revisit that one some day.

God's peace and joy as always.
Good Night


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## BT Charlie

Art, what did Gnostics (antichrists, false teachers) claim with respect to Christ's divinity? Why did the Apostle John oppose that? Commentaries on 1 John may be helpful in this pursuit, brother.

Vere homo, vere deus.  Pow...mind blown, again. Blessings.


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## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> Art, what did Gnostics (antichrists, false teachers) claim with respect to Christ's divinity? Why did the Apostle John oppose that? Commentaries on 1 John may be helpful in this pursuit, brother.
> 
> Vere homo, vere deus.  Pow...mind blown, again. Blessings.



I don't see how that comparison or study would help me as I have never denied Jesus' divinity.


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## hobbs27

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Titus 2:13 - Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;


-------------------------------------------------I AM

Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Exodus 3:14 - And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8:58 - Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Isaiah 42:8 - I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> All I'm trying to convey is Jesus gave up his divinity while on earth as a man. I'm not trying to convey that Jesus was just a man before or after he was on this earth.
> This is not a Trinity concept. This is not a Oneness concept. This concept doesn't even deny that Jesus is God. This is a Biblical concept. You can be a Trinitarian and believe this concept.



Jesus did not give up His divinity. He showed us by example how to live---He being in the flesh and He dwelling inside that flesh. As we are born again He makes our flesh a dwelling place for Him. We are to put our flesh to death daily, that Christ may be seen through it in the way we live our lives. Christ is in each of us that are born again--His blood being celestial flows through our veins--we are not of this world, yet we still battle the flesh daily.


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## BT Charlie

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see how that comparison or study would help me as I have never denied Jesus' divinity.



I hope you are not receiving me as suggesting you had done something "incorrect." Your reliance on the texts quoted, and your zeal for the humbling of Christ, merely suggested to me that it may be fruitful ultimately if the contours of blasphemy and heresy in this regard are more observable, that's all.  You usually seek to know the two sides of a coin you profess; this is a rich discussion and as they say the devil lies in the detail.  John has addressed those lies in the detail you waded into regarding Christ's humanity.  I commend the study to you, for whatever it may be worth.  Peace.


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## BT Charlie

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus did not give up His divinity. .



Amen.  Vere homo, vere deus.

Oh how He loves us, who will never know, not really, until then ... .


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## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> I hope you are not receiving me as suggesting you had done something "incorrect." Your reliance on the texts quoted, and your zeal for the humbling of Christ, merely suggested to me that it may be fruitful ultimately if the contours of blasphemy and heresy in this regard are more observable, that's all.  You usually seek to know the two sides of a coin you profess; this is a rich discussion and as they say the devil lies in the detail.  John has addressed those lies in the detail you waded into regarding Christ's humanity.  I commend the study to you, for whatever it may be worth.  Peace.



This much is true, I'll look into it more.

One thing I find interesting is Oneness people say it is wrong to divide God into three equals. Trinitarians say it is wrong not to. I don't think either is correct. We can all find verses to support our claims. 
Trinitarians do have the upperhand by getting to write the history so to speak.
I wish I did believe it so I could be in the majority. Like I've said before, I wish I believed in election but I don't. I can't force myself to believe something even if every person on the Earth believed it and I didn't.
I can't explain my concept any better than any one else. It's like a free will believer trying to explain God's foreknowledge. Something gets lost in the confusion. To a certain extent we do have to "let the mystery be."


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## Artfuldodger

John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.4 I have brought you glory on earth by finishing the work you gave me to do.


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## BT Charlie

One sees loop d loops.  

Another sees a man earnestly pressing into his Savior, openly,  barnacles and all.  

Prisoners frequently judge other prisoners.  In the system, self worth frequently is known not through the atonement of Jesus Christ, but through other ways within the system.  Others' crimes are worse through false relativity.  Too, others' questions may fuel unmerited self-belief, a superiority, a certainty, within those who see the quick answer and its doctrinal counterparts.  Thus a boast or chide toward others utters, forever.

Maybe all crimes are equally horrific, separating us from the Glory of God.  Perhaps none,  no not one, is righteous, save for Jesus Christ.  A quick answer, a consistent answer, maybe they are just evidence of a longer time in and familiarity with the system itself. If so, a boast here, a chide there, uttered in perpetuation of the essence of the system, maybe those are actually quite condemning for the utterer and any system that allows it, encourages it.

This forum is not fellowship, not discipleship.  It took a while for that to sink in.  Some can find encouragement here, words of life.  Something else altogether is as likely, perhaps.  

Each must decide whether participating in particular discussions = sin -- directly, or otherwise.


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## Artfuldodger

BT Charlie said:


> One sees loop d loops.
> 
> Another sees a man earnestly pressing into his Savior, openly,  barnacles and all.
> 
> Prisoners frequently judge other prisoners.  In the system, self worth frequently is known not through the atonement of Jesus Christ, but through other ways within the system.  Others' crimes are worse through false relativity.  Too, others' questions may fuel unmerited self-belief, a superiority, a certainty, within those who see the quick answer and its doctrinal counterparts.  Thus a boast or chide toward others utters, forever.
> 
> Maybe all crimes are equally horrific, separating us from the Glory of God.  Perhaps none,  no not one, is righteous, save for Jesus Christ.  A quick answer, a consistent answer, maybe they are just evidence of a longer time in and familiarity with the system itself. If so, a boast here, a chide there, uttered in perpetuation of the essence of the system, maybe those are actually quite condemning for the utterer and any system that allows it, encourages it.
> 
> This forum is not fellowship, not discipleship.  It took a while for that to sink in.  Some can find encouragement here, words of life.  Something else altogether is as likely, perhaps.
> 
> Each must decide whether participating in particular discussions = sin -- directly, or otherwise.



I asked God for answers and he brought me to this forum. I have to disagree  with your last two paragraphs. This indeed is fellowship and discipleship. 
Every thread makes me delve deeper into the Bible. Every post makes me ponder. 
hey if anything else it's a great place to learn to "test the spirits."


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## Fenderbuilt27

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, He also had the Father, and so likewise The Father  and The Holy Spirit had The Son, even from the beginning.



This ^^^^
 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life,[a] and the life was the light of men. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


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## Artfuldodger

Trinitarian Translation & Interpretation #1: "the Word was God" = Jesus was divine by nature (Jesus was "what").
    Trinitarian Translation & Interpretation #2: "the Word was God" = Jesus was the one God (Jesus was "who").
    Modalist Translation & Interpretation #1: "the Word was God" = Jesus was God the Father.
    Watchtower Translation & Interpretation: "the Word was a god" = Jesus was a god (but not the God).
    Another Translation & Interpretation #1: "the Word was a god" = the non-personal word was divine (what).
    Yet Another Translation & Interpretation #2: "the Word was a god" = the non-personal word was God (who). 

Christadelphians and/or Unitarians, and others, usually choose between the latter two options or some modification thereof. In this understanding, the Word which became flesh, is not yet an independent and/or distinct person "in the beginning."

The Trinitarian Claim(s)

1. [Usually laypeople]: John is identifying Jesus as "God," or WHO Jesus was.

OR

2. [Usually more informed Trinitarians]: John is indicating Jesus was divine by nature (in the same sense the Father is divine) or WHAT Jesus was and since only God is divine by nature Jesus is God by identity.

While the Trinitarian translation is correct, Claim #1 is usually made by laypeople who are confused by the English translation and do not realize what their own scholars say this verse means (Claim #2).

http://www.angelfire.com/space/thegospeltruth/trinity/verses/Jn1_1.html


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## 1gr8bldr

Everything was created "in word" during the seven days. God did not creat as he went. He created everything. He spoke and it was so. Yet everything did not yet exist but was still in word. Since God being Spirit is what he does, "the word was God". Much like the phrase, "you are what you eat". You eat healthy and you will likely be healthy, and the opposite. An example. Issac is called Abrahams firstborn yet we know it was Ishmael. Issac got all the firstborn rights. Why is this? Because Issac was promised first. OT saints were commended for believeing God's "word" as already done yet not yet existing. Issac could say, before Ishmael, I am. And we could say about Issac "and the word became flesh". The creation/promise now existing. And of Jesus, And the word became flesh. Now for a change of subject, Why the I am in reference to Jesus. They were argueing over "greater", the audience believing Abraham to be their greatest. Religion traces it's roots back to it's eldest father and considers them the greatest. The God of Abraham, the God of Issac and the God of Jacob. Jesus same as Issac, was promised "before" Abraham. He essentially claimed himself greater than Abraham as "the firstborn"


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## Artfuldodger

Maybe Jesus is the word of God made flesh. Jesus is the prophesied word. God didn't become flesh but his word did. The "word" became "Word." The logos of God. Jews understood this better when John showed them Jesus was a personification of God’s revelation.
John 1:14 lets us know God's  "Logos  made flesh" came from him.

John 1:14
The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.


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## Artfuldodger

John 1:1 in English versions

The most common rendering in English is:

    "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

“[It] is clear that in the translation “the Word was God,” the term God is being used to denote his nature or essence, and not his person. But in normal English usage “God” is a proper noun, referring to the person of the Father or corporately to the three persons of the Godhead. Moreover, “the Word was God” suggests that “the Word” and “God” are convertible terms, that the proposition is reciprocating. But the Word is neither the Father nor the Trinity… The rendering cannot stand without explanation.”[4] Translations by James Moffatt, Hugh J. Schonfield and Edgar Goodspeed render part of the verse as "...and the Word was divine."

An Orthodox Bible Commentary notes: "This second theos could also be translated ‘divine’ as the construction indicates "a qualitative sense for theos". The Word is not God in the sense that he is the same person as the theos mentioned in 1:1a; he is not God the Father (God absolutely as in common NT usage) or the Trinity. The point being made is that the Logos is of the same uncreated nature or essence as God the Father, with whom he eternally exists. This verse is echoed in the Nicene Creed: 'God (qualitative or derivative) from God (personal, the Father), Light from Light, True God from True God… homoousion with the Father.'"[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1


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## Artfuldodger

The Hebraic usage of the words EL and ELOHIM seemed to be no longer understood very well by these leaders, for they claimed that if Jesus was called THEOS, and since the Bible says that there is only one true THEOS, then Jesus had to be only true THEOS. The failure, of course, was in not understanding that the Hebraic background offers more than one shade of meaning to the words from which the Greek THEOS was translated. This we have discussed in our study on the Hebraic Usage of the Words for God.* With this spirit of error in mind, the writings of the apostles were totally reinterpreted to accommodate the error, and many of the Hellenic Jewish philosophies were adapted and added to and blended in with the New Testament, even as the Jews had already done with the Old Testament. Satan, the deceiver, has used the doctrines of men as a means to hinder the work of the holy spirit from producing a understanding of the full Gospel message that is presented in the scriptures. As long as one looks at the scriptures through the trinitarian (or oneness) spectacles, he is not sufficiently submitting himself to the spirit of truth as revealed in the Bible, and will be hindered from its full understanding.**

PLEASE NOTE: Restoration Light Bible Study Services is not affiliated with the “Jehovah’s Witnesses” organization, nor do we advocate the sectarian spirit of that organization, or any other organization. 

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?page_id=9


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## Artfuldodger

Logos signifies mouthpiece, or special messenger. Before coming to the earth, Jesus was indeed this Logos, who was with the only true God. (John 1:1,2; 17:3,5) “The Word”, as applied to Jesus, is a titular “name”, as can be seen from Revelation 19:13. Being the firstborn living creature, God, through him, created all living creatures. (Colossians 1:16; with the evident exclusion of God and Jesus – 1 Corinthians 15:27) John 1:1-14, however, is not speaking of all creation in the universe, nor even of all living creatures. Like Genesis 1, the creation being spoken of in John 1:1-14 is limited to the world of mankind. (John 1:10) The first and only, uniquely, begotten Son of Jehovah was given an exclusive place, so that “all these were made through Him, and without Him was not any made that was made.” (John 1:3) Thus highly did the Father honor Him as His Agent in all the creative work, both as respects angels, cherubim and men.

http://jesus.rlbible.com/?p=1303


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## gemcgrew

Art, the Jews also accused him of blasphemy, "Because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33)


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Art, the Jews also accused him of blasphemy, "Because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God" (John 10:33)



Read on through to verse 38 and you will see Jesus' answer. He informed them he was just doing the works of his father. That they should at least believe the works.

In verse 36 Jesus is questioning why they would even ask him if he was God.
New International Version
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

New Living Translation
why do you call it blasphemy when I say, 'I am the Son of God'? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.

English Standard Version
do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?


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## hobbs27

Art according to your belief is Jesus

1)Equal to The Father

2) Lesser than The Father


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art according to your belief is Jesus
> 
> 1)Equal to The Father
> 
> 2) Lesser than The Father



He is lesser than the Father but greater than the angels. He is seated at the right hand of the "Majesty on High."

Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) 

Jesus even said his Father was greater than him. 

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Oneness makes more sense than separating God into three equal  entities. Oneness describes God as greater than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> He is lesser than the Father but greater than the angels. He is seated at the right hand of the "Majesty on High."
> 
> Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46)
> 
> Jesus even said his Father was greater than him.
> 
> John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
> 
> Oneness makes more sense than separating God into three equal  entities. Oneness describes God as greater than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.


Are you sure about that. I always thought Oneness believed Jesus was God, or God's name was Jesus. Maybe I have been wrong????


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## Israel

Regarding himself, I believe Jesus lets his Father speak for him.
Regarding his Father, Jesus is plainly delighted to accord him the higher seat.
In all that you have ever heard in the spirit, have you ever heard anyone spoken of more highly than Jesus?
Do you believe the instruction to consider others in preference to oneself may have come from the very place where it is not only true...but practiced?


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## Artfuldodger

For the first 300 or so years Christians could make up their own mind about who Jesus was. Then Constantine held the first Council of Nicaea. He was tired of all of the Church divisions and wanted to put an end to it. It might have put an end to the divisions by force but eventually through freedom we have many divisions.
At this first council it was decided that Jesus was God just as his Father was God. Just as the Holy spirit was God. Aside from Constantine, the main speaker appears to have been Eusebius, a bishop at his court. 
It's rumored Constantine remained a Pagan even after becoming a Christian and was baptized on his death bed.
Regardless of who he was, he had a great influence on this council. Thank God that we are now free to make choices as individuals once more in forming our beliefs. With all of the divisions of Catholics, Protestants, denomination of Protestants, Baptist, & denominations of Baptist is proof the Council of Nicaea was not from God but from Man, mostly Constantine. 
I believe God would rather we didn't form divisions. I don't believe the divisions are from God. He would rather we were One Church. I don't believe a formal council was or is the answer. I don't believe Church Creeds are the answer.
I don't know what the answer is, just what it isn't. I'm Ross Perot.


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Are you sure about that. I always thought Oneness believed Jesus was God, or God's name was Jesus. Maybe I have been wrong????



They are sometimes referred to as "Jesus only" because in Acts, tells us to be baptized in the name of Jesus only.
They do believe Jesus is God, they just don't separate God into three equal parts. He can be one or the other, but not all three at the same time. 
Here is a Oneness believer discussing it:
Oneness proponent:
My debate opponent wants to say there are three Gods and one God all at the same time. He mentions the plural words and pronouns for God, but will my debate opponent come right out and say that there are three Gods? Why hold back from the inevitable conclusion to which his doctrine leads? If there's more than one being who are both God and who are not each other, then just admit that there are two or three Gods! Let him bravely step forth and declare polytheism true, and we shall know how far this Trinitarian doctrine will take us into error. Or, else let him appeal to three gods only to try to prove Oneness false, but let Him hold back from consistency and insist that there is one God nonetheless, and he will reveal that his conscience objects to the polytheistic conclusions of the doctrine he professes. What Trinitarian will come right out and admit that there are three Gods? Their consciences object! They cannot be consistent. Is not this inconsistency, this inability to follow the doctrine to what we both would consider a heretical conclusion one more weighty piece of evidence that Oneness is true and the Trinitarian view false? This is powerful evidence for the truth that I am defending today.
Trinitarian:
We must not impose our own definitions upon God's Word, but we must let God define His own terms. The Bible clearly tells us the sense in which Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus prayed that you and I - believers in Jesus - could be one in the same sense that He and the Father are one. That was His prayer. All Christians should one just like Jesus and the Father are one. 

http://rightremedy.org/booklets/368


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## Artfuldodger

Oneness theology specifically maintains that God is absolutely and indivisibly one.[5][6] It equally proclaims that God is not made of a physical body, but is an invisible spirit that can only be seen in theophanies (such as the burning bush) that he creates or manifests, or in the person of the incarnate Jesus Christ. In the person of Jesus, one sees the last, best, and complete theophany of God (Colossians 2:9 KJV : For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily).
Oneness Pentecostalism rejects all concepts of a subordination, duality, trinity, pantheon, co-equality, co-eternity, or other versions of the Godhead that assert plural gods, plural beings, divine "persons", individuals, or multiple centers of consciousness within that Godhead.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> He is lesser than the Father but greater than the angels. He is seated at the right hand of the "Majesty on High."
> 
> Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46)
> 
> Jesus even said his Father was greater than him.
> 
> John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
> 
> Oneness makes more sense than separating God into three equal  entities. Oneness describes God as greater than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.




I see. Have you considered the Jesus of Revelations? The King of Kings and Lord of Lords. 
 You may have a different view of the Jesus that reigns over His kingdom than the Jesus that ministered to the Jew on earth. I notice a lot of people refer to Jesus as was--- but Jesus Is! He is alive, He is my Savior, He is my Lord, He is the King of Gods Kingdom!


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## Ronnie T

If Jesus is seated someplace tonight, where would he be seated?
.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> I see. Have you considered the Jesus of Revelations? The King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
> You may have a different view of the Jesus that reigns over His kingdom than the Jesus that ministered to the Jew on earth. I notice a lot of people refer to Jesus as was--- but Jesus Is! He is alive, He is my Savior, He is my Lord, He is the King of Gods Kingdom!



I believe Jesus Is. Sometimes we talk of his time on earth as was. In that regards, Jesus said  my Father IS greater than I.
He surely didn't park his body and re-enter God his Father. He is at the right hand of his Father as a less than entity. Jesus IS still our Mediator between God and man. Jesus IS waiting for his command from his Father, when to return to Earth. Jesus IS still performing the work of God's Kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> If Jesus is seated someplace tonight, where would he be seated?
> .



In a city with streets, mansions, thrones, music, gardens, & fountains.


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## Artfuldodger

Why does God let Jesus judge? 
2 Timothy 4:1 
I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom:


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## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Jesus Is. Sometimes we talk of his time on earth as was. In that regards, Jesus said  my Father IS greater than I.
> He surely didn't park his body and re-enter God his Father. He is at the right hand of his Father as a less than entity. Jesus IS still our Mediator between God and man. Jesus IS waiting for his command from his Father, when to return to Earth. Jesus IS still performing the work of God's Kingdom.



There.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Read on through to verse 38 and you will see Jesus' answer. He informed them he was just doing the works of his father. That they should at least believe the works.
> 
> In verse 36 Jesus is questioning why they would even ask him if he was God.
> New International Version
> what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?
> 
> New Living Translation
> why do you call it blasphemy when I say, 'I am the Son of God'? After all, the Father set me apart and sent me into the world.
> 
> English Standard Version
> do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?


They understood exactly what he was saying and that is why they despised him. "Because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God". 

Thomas also understood him and confessed "My Lord and my God". (John 20:28) 

Paul declared that Christ is "over all, God blessed for ever". (Romans 9:5) 

God the Father welcomed his Son back to heaven and declared him to be God. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> He is lesser than the Father but greater than the angels. He is seated at the right hand of the "Majesty on High."
> 
> Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46)
> 
> Jesus even said his Father was greater than him.
> 
> John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
> 
> Oneness makes more sense than separating God into three equal  entities. *Oneness describes God as greater than Jesus or the Holy Spirit.*


Oneness says God is Jesus and the HS, but one person. Trinitarian say 3. There is no "greater than" in oneness. They believe God manifests himself in lots of different ways


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## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Oneness says God is Jesus and the HS, but one person. Trinitarian say 3. There is no "greater than" in oneness. They believe God manifests himself in lots of different ways



Oneness Pentecostalism rejects all concepts of a subordination, duality, trinity, pantheon, co-equality, co-eternity, or other versions of the Godhead that assert plural gods, plural beings, divine "persons", individuals, or multiple centers of consciousness within that Godhead. 

I did not explain it correctly. I can't even explain what I beleive correctly. Neither can Trinitarians.  I can't explain Free will and predestination. I can't explain Grace vs discipleship either.
I really am Ross Perot!


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> They understood exactly what he was saying and that is why they despised him. "Because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God".
> 
> Thomas also understood him and confessed "My Lord and my God". (John 20:28)
> 
> Paul declared that Christ is "over all, God blessed for ever". (Romans 9:5)
> 
> God the Father welcomed his Son back to heaven and declared him to be God. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)



Way back in the days of Jesus on earth, wasn't God & Lord used to explain different entities? I do know there were lots of different words used to describe God & Jesus.
Elohim, Echad, El, Yahweh, Ego Eimi, Ton Theon.

What is God referring to  in John 10: 34-35:
…34Jesus answered them, "Has it not been written in your Law, 'I SAID, YOU ARE GODS '? 35"If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Then we must somehow reconcile other supernatural entities such as Melchizedek, Satan and possibly Mother Mary if one believes as such. Most Christians do believe Satan has supernatural powers but isn't a God.

Concerning Mary:
Christians of the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Anglican Communion, and Lutheran churches believe that Mary, as mother of Jesus, is the Mother of God (Μήτηρ Θεοῦ) and the Theotokos, literally "Bearer of God". Mary has been venerated since Early Christianity.[7][8] Throughout the ages she has been a favorite subject in Christian art, music, and literature.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_(mother_of_Jesus)


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## HawgJawl

gemcgrew said:


> God the Father welcomed his Son back to heaven and declared him to be God. "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom." (Hebrews 1:8)



Read Hebrews chapter 1 with this question in mind, who on earth could possibly know the things being discussed?

When asked questions such as "to which angel has God ever spoken similar words", ask yourself how anyone on earth could know every conversation God has had with angels in heaven.


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## Artfuldodger

Does anyone have any comments on this Incarnation chart:


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## HawgJawl

(Q)  Did Jesus die a spiritual death on the cross?

(A)  No. Jesus is God and God cannot die. Jesus released His spirit to the Father just before His physical death.

(Q)  So, the death on the cross was only the physical death of His human nature?

(A)  Yes.

(Q)  So, the physical death of a man paid the price for original sin for everyone?  If so, why do we still die a physical death since the price has been paid?

(A)  Well, the price for original sin was spiritual death and it was paid by Jesus dying.

Return to the first question and repeat as many times as necessary.


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## 1gr8bldr

HawgJawl said:


> Read Hebrews chapter 1 with this question in mind, who on earth could possibly know the things being discussed?
> 
> When asked questions such as "to which angel has God ever spoken similar words", ask yourself how anyone on earth could know every conversation God has had with angels in heaven.


You been reading to much Thomas Jefferson. I like his quotes also. Good catch on that. I have said similiar things before such as who really knew what Pilot said to Jesus. Or how did anyone really know what Steven saw as he looked up into heaven.


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> Does anyone have any comments on this Incarnation chart:


I can't buy that on the simple grounds of "God does not change". Becoming a man is a big change


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