# Three God people.



## gordon 2 (Nov 30, 2011)

I was talking to a friend of mine that went to Libya in their recent turmoil. He told me that him being a christian was a very big deal for the libyans he was with. Said they had all kinds of incorrect ideas about christians and their motives. One of the big problems was their beliefs that Jesus allowed christians to kill non christians ( crusaders) and that christians believed in three gods.

Said that the Devinchi Code is very popular reading there as a way to understand christians. 

I wonder if we know arab muslims in the same way?

Anyway after three weeks of working side by side, throught many conversations, both sides came to understand that each side was peace loving.


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## JB0704 (Nov 30, 2011)

G2, I understand the premise of your comment, and appreciate it.  As many on here know, I try to be as open minded as possible with these things.

Unfortunately for Americans, we live in a world where Muslims kill us for religious reasons.  Thats a hard bridge to cross when trying accept them as peaceful.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 30, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> One of the big problems was their beliefs that Jesus allowed christians to kill non christians ( crusaders) and that christians believed in three gods.
> 
> Said that the Devinchi Code is very popular reading there as a way to understand christians.



Very sad.

1)  Jesus did not put His stamp of approval on the crusades.

2)  Christians don't believe in three gods.  The first line of the Nicene Creed reads, "We believe in one God ..."

3)  Reading _The Da Vinci Code_ to understand Christians is like watching _Inglourious Basterds _as a way to understand World War II.  It's an alternate history.


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## JB0704 (Nov 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> 3)  Reading _The Da Vinci Code_ to understand Christians is like watching _Inglourious Basterds _as a way to understand World War II.  It's an alternate history.



Didn't quite get the "buzz" about that movie.  I usually like his stuff, but though that movie was junk.

Anyway, good point.  I wish we could have more conversations with Muslims so that we could better explain our position.  I don't know any that are from other countries.  The only Muslim folks I know are Americans who converted.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 30, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Didn't quite get the "buzz" about that movie.  I usually like his stuff, but though that movie was junk.



Christoph Waltz's portrayal of Col. Landa was worth the price of admission -- one of the best performances I've ever seen.


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## JB0704 (Nov 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Christoph Waltz's portrayal of Col. Landa was worth the price of admission -- one of the best performances I've ever seen.



Yea, I agree.  But, I thought Bradd Pitt was doing comedy.  I guess that was the point, because the scene where he is acting like a hillbilly pretending to be Italian made me laugh like crazy.  

However, overall, I still say it was junk.  Not big on historical fantasy.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 30, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ...the scene where he is acting like a hillbilly pretending to be Italian made me laugh like crazy.



Me too.  That was classic.


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## gordon 2 (Nov 30, 2011)

Imagine being in a religious culture that is dead set on one God, the god of Abraham, believing that christians are trying to convert the faithful to their faithless and pagan christian doctrines!

Imagine the pressure on one muslim in that culture to even entertain a spiritual relationship with a christian that even remotely could turn to a conversion from Islam!!!!!!!!!!!

The unthinkable ( figuratively) comparison might be the jews under Jeroboam who converted  from Yaweh to Baal!!!!!

Also it is perhaps usefull to consider that Libya is not yet westernized and the people of Libya, mostly muslims, when they view the west are not spiritually impressed by the fruits of  its many forms of christianity.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 30, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Imagine being in a religious culture that is dead set on one God, the god of Abraham, believing that christians are trying to convert the faithful to their faithless and pagan christian doctrines!
> 
> Imagine the pressure on one muslim in that culture to even entertain a spiritual relationship with a christian that even remotely could turn to a conversion from Islam!!!!!!!!!!!




Even worse, imagine being a woman in that culture.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 30, 2011)

Every religion is misrepresented in some way by it's opponets. I have heard it said that Muslims are a peaceful people given a bad name by the extreme of the Muslim faith. We don't actually see that many Muslims killing people. Sure we see it sometimes but not considering how many Muslims there are. Hard to acuse 1000's of Muslims as killers for what 2% did


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## gordon 2 (Nov 30, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Every religion is misrepresented in some way by it's opponets. I have heard it said that Muslims are a peaceful people given a bad name by the extreme of the Muslim faith. We don't actually see that many Muslims killing people. Sure we see it sometimes but not considering how many Muslims there are. Hard to acuse 1000's of Muslims as killers for what 2% did




This (misrepresentation) also goes for denominations within the same religion. I don't even know how to go about thinking about this...

I am fully aware that we all demonize the enemy...but ....


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## JB0704 (Nov 30, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Every religion is misrepresented in some way by it's opponets. I have heard it said that Muslims are a peaceful people given a bad name by the extreme of the Muslim faith. We don't actually see that many Muslims killing people. Sure we see it sometimes but not considering how many Muslims there are. Hard to acuse 1000's of Muslims as killers for what 2% did



Yes, you are correct.  The problem is that we have an entire generation of Americans who have grown up in a country at war to reconcile Muslim atrocities (simplified thinking, I know, but we are talking about a kid's perspective).  That type of thing is hard to overcome.  I know it is for me, anyway.  And maybe that kind-of supports the point of the OP.


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## SarahFair (Dec 1, 2011)

People live in fear.
Once we learn to get over fearing what we do not understand there will be more peace among us. 


...simple isnt it?


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## JB0704 (Dec 1, 2011)

SarahFair said:


> People live in fear.
> Once we learn to get over fearing what we do not understand there will be more peace among us.
> ...simple isnt it?



I don't understand how that works.  Let's say we stop fearing the Muslim terrorists, does that mean they will stop trying to kill us?


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## SarahFair (Dec 1, 2011)

No...
Everyone has to come to a mutual understanding of each other.
We are going to have to peacefully agree to disagree. 


Im not saying its going to happen tomorrow, next year, the next 20 years, or even in this lifetime.

...We are at the dawning of a new age 
"The Age of Aquarius" 

Currently we are leaving "The Age of Pisces" which is the cause of all these religious wars. 

(each age lasts 2000 years, give or take..)


But this is a whole different topic.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 1, 2011)

SarahFair said:


> No...
> Everyone has to come to a mutual understanding of each other.
> We are going to have to peacefully agree to disagree.
> 
> ...



OK, I'm going to topic this out of this tread. I what to know about the age of Aquarius and why at the end of the Age of Pisces we are haveing religious wars.

Here I go..........................


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## Atlfinfan (Dec 22, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Every religion is misrepresented in some way by it's opponets. I have heard it said that Muslims are a peaceful people given a bad name by the extreme of the Muslim faith. We don't actually see that many Muslims killing people. Sure we see it sometimes but not considering how many Muslims there are. Hard to acuse 1000's of Muslims as killers for what 2% did



Although I am not an authority on the Muslim religion, I have learned that something like 80 plus percent of them are OK with the violence that the 2% do.  That is not a religion of peace.  They have no reason to be honest with ANYONE that is not a muslim.  Everyone else is an infidel and its ok to lie to them, without concequence, either now or in the 'afterlife'.  That is why it does no good to negotiate with them.  Even the 2 sects dont believe the other is a real muslim, sheite and sunni.   That is why Iraq will never quit killing their own and will also never settle down to peace.  
Dont let the media tell you otherwise, even though that is the new agenda they are pushing, including the new show about...muslims in America, or what ever its called.


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## LostSoul (Jan 7, 2012)

Atlfinfan said:


> Although I am not an authority on the Muslim religion...



Which is why you shouldn't spread your "opinion" on the Muslim faith, which is called Islam by the way.




Atlfinfan said:


> Even the 2 sects dont believe the other is a real muslim, sheite and sunni.



No different than the different Christian sects (denominations).


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I don't understand how that works.  Let's say we stop fearing the Muslim terrorists, does that mean they will stop trying to kill us?



We just wish.

I wish I could get out of the fear of walking a mile down the road at 3am to get a warm krispykreme donut. Well maybe if I carried my shotgun I'd feel safe doing that.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, you are correct.  The problem is that we have an entire generation of Americans who have grown up in a country at war to reconcile Muslim atrocities (simplified thinking, I know, but we are talking about a kid's perspective).  That type of thing is hard to overcome.  I know it is for me, anyway.  And maybe that kind-of supports the point of the OP.



And the generation before that, it was communism.

Our entire country is being taken over by illegals without a shot fired. We need to be protecting our own country and borders and let the rest of the world fight each other to the death.....muslims have been causing problems for thousands of years, not all muslims but some. But don't think for a minute if the extremists tried to take over our country, they wouldn't have plenty of backup even from peaceful muslims in this country.  Same way we backed each other in killing off the native americans, who did nothing to us.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 8, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> And the generation before that, it was communism.
> 
> Our entire country is being taken over by illegals without a shot fired. We need to be protecting our own country and borders and let the rest of the world fight each other to the death.....muslims have been causing problems for thousands of years, not all muslims but some. But don't think for a minute if the extremists tried to take over our country, they wouldn't have plenty of backup even from peaceful muslims in this country.  Same way we backed each other in killing off the native americans, who did nothing to us.



Rock of ages cleft for me...was perhaps a moral recognition of the seperation, and not a nearing, of the justice of Christ and the justice lived by a pilgrim.

Perhaps it is time to pen a new hymn of not only a world to come, for and from a world  of sorrow that will ever be, but to  all of creation from the justice of our Lord  and without seperation in all our hearts. Can we continue forever to hide in the Lord?


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## justrun (Jan 8, 2012)

IMO, I believe about 90% what has been posted above is incorrect.  My short and shallow background dealing with Muslims has been mostly in Iraq while I was deployed.  I was in a unique position, twice, while deployed.  We were on a small team of Army guys serving as combat advisers to the Iraqi Army.  This put us into position to live on an Iraqi FOB and spend 24 hours a day with them for a year.  My counterpart was an elderly LTC and loved talking religion to me.  I also had other counterparts from Sunni, Shia, and Kurds.  I could talk for hours on this subject but the main point is that 99% of the Muslims are the nicest and caring people that you have ever met.  The other 1% make the news.  Most Muslims love Christians and believe that we will join them in heaven.  Even the radical Muslims don't hate Christians, they hate Americans and the sinful way of life.  We were in the worst part of Iraq and it was worse than the news ever reported.  Everyone was fighting everyone EXCEPT in one area.  That was the only Christian area that we had in our area of operations and it was quiet.  No body bothered them, no Sunni's, Shia, or even AQI.  There was to hate for the Christians and therefore no violence.  We went and checked on them every once and a while but that was it.  As for the Sunni and Shia thing, well most Iraqi's will tell you that there wasn't much fighting between them until the media (out media) kept reporting that there was fighting between them.  To understand that violence over there you have to study the power struggle between tribes.  But anyway, I have made many lifelong Muslim friends from Iraq and have learned a lot from them.  BTW, the most common female name in Iraq is Miriam, a version of Mary.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

justrun said:


> IMO, I believe about 90% what has been posted above is incorrect.  My short and shallow background dealing with Muslims has been mostly in Iraq while I was deployed.  I was in a unique position, twice, while deployed.  We were on a small team of Army guys serving as combat advisers to the Iraqi Army.  This put us into position to live on an Iraqi FOB and spend 24 hours a day with them for a year.  My counterpart was an elderly LTC and loved talking religion to me.  I also had other counterparts from Sunni, Shia, and Kurds.  I could talk for hours on this subject but the main point is that 99% of the Muslims are the nicest and caring people that you have ever met.  The other 1% make the news.  Most Muslims love Christians and believe that we will join them in heaven.  Even the radical Muslims don't hate Christians, they hate Americans and the sinful way of life.  We were in the worst part of Iraq and it was worse than the news ever reported.  Everyone was fighting everyone EXCEPT in one area.  That was the only Christian area that we had in our area of operations and it was quiet.  No body bothered them, no Sunni's, Shia, or even AQI.  There was to hate for the Christians and therefore no violence.  We went and checked on them every once and a while but that was it.  As for the Sunni and Shia thing, well most Iraqi's will tell you that there wasn't much fighting between them until the media (out media) kept reporting that there was fighting between them.  To understand that violence over there you have to study the power struggle between tribes.  But anyway, I have made many lifelong Muslim friends from Iraq and have learned a lot from them.  BTW, the most common female name in Iraq is Miriam, a version of Mary.



Perhaps, in this instance, there is a significant difference between the religious-social IQ of Iraqi and Libyan societies? Iraqi society was ever more open than Libya's, perhaps. Sadam's long standing foreign minister was christian if I recall. Iraq has been/is a large and culturally divers country compared to Libya's...

My limited knowledge comes from Libyan and Iraq doctors and university profs..which I have worked with.  All these people as you say, are the nicest and caring people you will ever meet... and all muslim.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2012)

justrun said:


> Most Muslims love Christians and believe that we will join them in heaven.  Even the radical Muslims don't hate Christians, they hate Americans and the sinful way of life.



I think it would be a better world if the 99% of muslims you speak of would try and tell us this stuff themselves, instead of letting the radicals within their religion be their ambassadors to the world.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think it would be a better world if the 99% of muslims you speak of would try and tell us this stuff themselves, instead of letting the radicals within their religion be their ambassadors to the world.



Would 99% of christians ever do what you ask of muslims? 

For example are the republican candidates of which one is perhaps going to be the next president of the US the nice and careing christian ambassadors to the world or example of christian radicals, extreme within a greater christian religion? From the perspective of other nations and religions? The reported sectarianism between mormans and evanglicals in this  political case, is a reminder of religious and political sectarianism elsewhere??? Perhaps? Just sayin.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Would 99% of christians ever do what you ask of muslims?



Sure.  I would, and I am sure you would too.  All I am saying is that if 99% of the muslims in the world love Christians, it might be a good thing too hear about that as opposed to being called the great satan.



gordon 2 said:


> For example are the republican candidates of which one is perhaps going to be the next president of the US the nice and careing christian ambassadors to the world or example of christian radicals, extreme within a greater christian religion? From the perspective of other nations and religions? The reported sectarianism between mormans and evanglicals in this  political case, is a reminder of religious and political sectarianism elsewhere??? Perhaps? Just sayin.



And if any of those republican candidates declare a christian version of Jihad on the muslims in the world I would think you are on to something.

Again, I am not anti-muslim.  I am just a little hesitant to buy into the whole "they love us" concept when we hear silence from the masses as the vocal ones declare a holy war.


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## dawg2 (Jan 9, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Every religion is misrepresented in some way by it's opponets. I have heard it said that Muslims are a peaceful people given a bad name by the extreme of the Muslim faith. We don't actually see that many Muslims killing people. Sure we see it sometimes but not considering how many Muslims there are. Hard to acuse 1000's of Muslims as killers for what 2% did



There are not thousands of muslims.  There are over 2.2 BILLION.  I would venture to guess that less than 2% are the problem.

To put that into perspective:  Basically 1 in 4 people on this planet are muslim.


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## centerpin fan (Jan 9, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> For example are the republican candidates of which one is perhaps going to be the next president of the US the nice and careing christian ambassadors to the world or example of christian radicals …



Between the two, I would vote for the former, although it’s not the job of the president to be a Christian ambassador.




gordon 2 said:


> The reported sectarianism between mormans and evanglicals in this  political case, is a reminder of religious and political sectarianism elsewhere???



Historically, the animosity has been on the side of the evangelicals.  Do you know why the Mormons are in Utah?  Because they were driven there, and I don’t mean driven in a car.  I mean run out of town and threatened with their lives.


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## dawg2 (Jan 9, 2012)

justrun said:


> IMO, I believe about 90% what has been posted above is incorrect.  My short and shallow background dealing with Muslims has been mostly in Iraq while I was deployed.  I was in a unique position, twice, while deployed.  We were on a small team of Army guys serving as combat advisers to the Iraqi Army.  This put us into position to live on an Iraqi FOB and spend 24 hours a day with them for a year.  My counterpart was an elderly LTC and loved talking religion to me.  I also had other counterparts from Sunni, Shia, and Kurds.  I could talk for hours on this subject but the main point is that 99% of the Muslims are the nicest and caring people that you have ever met.  The other 1% make the news.  Most Muslims love Christians and believe that we will join them in heaven.  Even the radical Muslims don't hate Christians, they hate Americans and the sinful way of life.  We were in the worst part of Iraq and it was worse than the news ever reported.  Everyone was fighting everyone EXCEPT in one area.  That was the only Christian area that we had in our area of operations and it was quiet.  No body bothered them, no Sunni's, Shia, or even AQI.  There was to hate for the Christians and therefore no violence.  We went and checked on them every once and a while but that was it.  As for the Sunni and Shia thing, well most Iraqi's will tell you that there wasn't much fighting between them until the media (out media) kept reporting that there was fighting between them.  To understand that violence over there you have to study the power struggle between tribes.  But anyway, I have made many lifelong Muslim friends from Iraq and have learned a lot from them.  BTW, the most common female name in Iraq is Miriam, a version of Mary.



That has been my experience with muslims as well.  



JB0704 said:


> I think it would be a better world if the 99% of muslims you speak of would try and tell us this stuff themselves, instead of letting the radicals within their religion be their ambassadors to the world.



Wat do news agencies run for ratings? 

1)  A baptist preacher and muslim cleric holding hands and skipping through a daisy field

-OR-

2) Some stereotypical fanatic pointing and shaking an accusing finger with spittle flying everywhere with an AK on his shoulder.


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> Wat do news agencies run for ratings?
> 
> 1)  A baptist preacher and muslim cleric holding hands and skipping through a daisy field
> 
> ...



I am not going to get into a position where I am left defending intolerance, because that is not how I believe.  I understand what gets ratings, but also know that "hippie" Christians find their way on TV every day.  Muslims find their way into classrooms as teachers.  Foxnews will put just about anybody on.

My point was / is that perspective can be modified.  CAIR could do a lot by condemning violence in the name of Allah.  Countries who are governed by Islamic law could try and present the "better" side of their belief system instead of executing rape victims.  Cartoons of certain religious leaders could cease being reasons for Jihad. There is a lot that could be done to fix the widespread misunderstanfing between the two faiths.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I am not going to get into a position where I am left defending intolerance, because that is not how I believe.  I understand what gets ratings, but also know that "hippie" Christians find their way on TV every day.  Muslims find their way into classrooms as teachers.  Foxnews will put just about anybody on.
> 
> My point was / is that perspective can be modified.  CAIR could do a lot by condemning violence in the name of Allah.  Countries who are governed by Islamic law could try and present the "better" side of their belief system instead of executing rape victims.  Cartoons of certain religious leaders could cease being reasons for Jihad. There is a lot that could be done to fix the widespread misunderstanfing between the two faiths.



Agree. So what are we( you and I ) going to do encourage this?


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## JB0704 (Jan 9, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Agree. So what are we( you and I ) going to do encourage this?



Good challenge, and I am not sure, G2. 

I have sat through a lot of sermons in my life laced with rhetoric which contained veiled condemnations of other belief systems.  Though teaching Jesus as "the way" is a must for those who believe as such, perhaps the church (globally) could do a better job of presenting Christianity as you and I (westerners) see it....not sure what else.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 9, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Good challenge, and I am not sure, G2.
> 
> I have sat through a lot of sermons in my life laced with rhetoric which contained veiled condemnations of other belief systems.  Though teaching Jesus as "the way" is a must for those who believe as such, perhaps the church (globally) could do a better job of presenting Christianity as you and I (westerners) see it....not sure what else.



How about asking what is this justice that you ask for? And matching it up with the justice we ask for?

But perhaps before asking the questions, we should ask God, "What is this justice you ask for?" and "Is it a part of grace or apart from it or both?"

I wonder what God would say?


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## StriperAddict (Jan 9, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> I wonder what God would say?


 
Perhaps He would have us be a love influence by His grace/mercy/power,

and no longer a "cultural" influence.

Our western culture has gotten in the way of His witness many times; not just in some cultural "mistakes" WE make, but in overall perception of foreign nations.

I like what many gospel organizations are doing now...  training those in far away lands to go back to their home countries and churches and be an influence for Christ without the care of another nationality marring the landscape.  

I'm not saying we shouldn't enter the foreign mission field, but I'd advise caution on what provences welcome a US Christian worker and those who do not.

Make sense?  Hope I didn't pull this outta track.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 11, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Perhaps He would have us be a love influence by His grace/mercy/power,
> 
> and no longer a "cultural" influence.
> 
> ...



One sure thing I have been taught since I was a teen is to distinguish what is merely cultural and what is purely spiritual from my church and church leaders...since in my church there are hundreds of cultures. It is an axiom of my church that cultures should have leaders and churches from within those cultures, yet knowing what I knew as a teen....


Our christian or western cultures are  not always viewed as especially "christian".
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/31/world/americas/31syphilis.html?pagewanted=all


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## leemckinney (Jan 12, 2012)

If the majority of muslims are peaceful then why are christians being persecuted in every nation where muslims are a majority?  Go to any of the christian martyr sites and you can see the evidence of this.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 12, 2012)

leemckinney said:


> If the majority of muslims are peaceful then why are christians being persecuted in every nation where muslims are a majority?  Go to any of the christian martyr sites and you can see the evidence of this.



I suspect for the same reasons that in the past christian denominations persecuted each other . Or for the same reasons native americans were rubbed out by christians from northern Europe. Or for the same reason christians persecuted muslims in the last bulkin war not so long ago or in the crusades. Or simply for the reason that there is a state called Maryland. perhaps? Perhaps for the reasons that European christians between 1939 and 1944 were more  than a bit of a handful to jews? Perhaps because muslim are persecuted in North American as we speak?

Perhaps?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 12, 2012)

Come quickly Lord Jesus.


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## leemckinney (Jan 17, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Kc8PEdHRE


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