# Our Hope



## newnature (Sep 11, 2013)

As believers, we do not possess the life that Jesus got when God raised him from among the dead as an inherent quality any more than we possess God’s righteousness as a property in our own nature. Just as in the midst of our sinfulness, we are righteous, so in the midst of our self-evident mortality, we are going to get the life God gave to Jesus. In John 5:26, Jesus was “to have” that life that God has within himself, Jesus never had that kind of life before, he was to have it. In 1 John 1:1-5, Jesus indeed got that life, his disciples testify he got that life he was telling them he was going to get. As a result of our being sealed in Christ, we are what we are not. In ourselves, we are not righteous and not immortal, but in Christ, we are both righteous and immortal. The fact that the living saints will meet with Christ at the same time as the sleeping saints indicates that the latter have not yet been united with Christ in heaven. Paul was not concerned about a ‘state’ which exists between death and resurrection, but for a relationship that exists between the believer and Christ through death. This relationship of being with Christ is not interrupted by death, because the believer who sleeps in Christ has no awareness of the passing of time. Paul did not think the question of the status of the person between death and resurrection was a question that needed to be considered. The reason is that for Paul, those who die in Christ, their relationship with Christ is one of immediacy, because they have no awareness of the passing of time between their death and resurrection. Paul explains that both the sleeping and living believers will be united with Christ, not at death, but at his coming for his body of believers in this age of Grace. Paul never alluded to the conscious survival of the soul and its reattachment to the body at the resurrection, that is a notion totally foreign to Paul and to Scripture as a whole. 

God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/


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## hobbs27 (Sep 11, 2013)

newnature said:


> As believers, we do not possess the life that Jesus got when God raised him from among the dead as an inherent quality any more than we possess God’s righteousness as a property in our own nature. Just as in the midst of our sinfulness, we are righteous, so in the midst of our self-evident mortality, we are going to get the life God gave to Jesus. In John 5:26, Jesus was “to have” that life that God has within himself, Jesus never had that kind of life before, he was to have it. In 1 John 1:1-5, Jesus indeed got that life, his disciples testify he got that life he was telling them he was going to get. As a result of our being sealed in Christ, we are what we are not. In ourselves, we are not righteous and not immortal, but in Christ, we are both righteous and immortal. The fact that the living saints will meet with Christ at the same time as the sleeping saints indicates that the latter have not yet been united with Christ in heaven. Paul was not concerned about a ‘state’ which exists between death and resurrection, but for a relationship that exists between the believer and Christ through death. This relationship of being with Christ is not interrupted by death, because the believer who sleeps in Christ has no awareness of the passing of time. Paul did not think the question of the status of the person between death and resurrection was a question that needed to be considered. The reason is that for Paul, those who die in Christ, their relationship with Christ is one of immediacy, because they have no awareness of the passing of time between their death and resurrection. Paul explains that both the sleeping and living believers will be united with Christ, not at death, but at his coming for his body of believers in this age of Grace. Paul never alluded to the conscious survival of the soul and its reattachment to the body at the resurrection, that is a notion totally foreign to Paul and to Scripture as a whole.
> 
> God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/



How do you explain this? 

Matthew 27
1And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> How do you explain this?
> 
> Matthew 27
> 1And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.



I would like to see anyone explain that. It appears to support soul sleep. When Jesus resurrected, so did those few saints. Many saints rather, maybe it was most of them.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm not sure if our souls go to Paradise or if they just go to sleep. Either way I don't believe we go to Heaven or He11 when we die. We must be judged first. What would be the point of coming back to earth for a body if we were already in Heaven? 
If we were already in Heaven enjoying the mansions, gardens, fountains,  music, streets of gold, beauty of the jewels, etc., why would we need a glorified body?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to see anyone explain that. It appears to support soul sleep. When Jesus resurrected, so did those few saints. Many saints rather, maybe it was most of them.



The scripture says after His resurrection...So how many resurrections is there? If 1,000 years is but one day to the Lord and I die and go to heaven, then folks that die 1,000 years from now in the Lord make it to heaven the same day as I..dont they? Many mysteries we dont know, and probably won't until we make it through to the other side.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to see anyone explain that. It appears to support soul sleep. When Jesus resurrected, so did those few saints. Many saints rather, maybe it was most of them.





Matthew 27-51
1And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 

I bet you a jigger of rum that this has been studies and commented on many, many times t/o the ages.

I would be tempted to seek an knowledgeable  jew for the many references for all the terms here in ( what is to us the old testament).

a) renting of temple veil
b)renting of rocks
c) graves were opened
d) resurection to the dead,  going to Jeruselem and appearing to many...
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amos 8-9
In that day," declares the Sovereign LORD, "I will make the sun go down at noon and darken the earth in broad daylight

Ex 26-31

"Make a curtain of blue, purple and scarlet yarn and finely twisted linen, with cherubim woven into it by a skilled worker.

( Note:  Remember that is was the tradition for some jews to rent one's cloths in the face of blasphemy? It is my view that in this case the curtain is God's cloths, which He rents. But this is my view now... not scriptural truth.)

1 Peter 3-19
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison...

Matthew 28-8
So they went out quickly from the tomb ****with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word.

( Note: It occurs to me that if the rocks rent for a spiritual event, if the very spiritual foundations rent, then the Spirit is moving in a new way with a bit more significance than a usual and repeated return of the  humbled remenant to Jeruselm.)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2013)

newnature said:


> As believers, we do not possess the life that Jesus got when God raised him from among the dead as an inherent quality any more than we possess God’s righteousness as a property in our own nature. Just as in the midst of our sinfulness, we are righteous, so in the midst of our self-evident mortality, we are going to get the life God gave to Jesus. In John 5:26, Jesus was “to have” that life that God has within himself, Jesus never had that kind of life before, he was to have it. In 1 John 1:1-5, Jesus indeed got that life, his disciples testify he got that life he was telling them he was going to get. As a result of our being sealed in Christ, we are what we are not. In ourselves, we are not righteous and not immortal, but in Christ, we are both righteous and immortal. The fact that the living saints will meet with Christ at the same time as the sleeping saints indicates that the latter have not yet been united with Christ in heaven. Paul was not concerned about a ‘state’ which exists between death and resurrection, but for a relationship that exists between the believer and Christ through death. This relationship of being with Christ is not interrupted by death, because the believer who sleeps in Christ has no awareness of the passing of time. Paul did not think the question of the status of the person between death and resurrection was a question that needed to be considered. The reason is that for Paul, those who die in Christ, their relationship with Christ is one of immediacy, because they have no awareness of the passing of time between their death and resurrection. Paul explains that both the sleeping and living believers will be united with Christ, not at death, but at his coming for his body of believers in this age of Grace. Paul never alluded to the conscious survival of the soul and its reattachment to the body at the resurrection, that is a notion totally foreign to Paul and to Scripture as a whole.
> 
> God’s Reconciliation of Man, read more about it at http://godsreconciliation.blogspot.com/



Interesting topic you started, do you have anything to add?
I am torn between soul sleep or souls going someplace other than Heaven until Jesus returns.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 31, 2013)

I'll take "A"... a topic fav!



gordon 2 said:


> Matthew 27-51
> 1And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom;
> ----
> I would be tempted to seek an knowledgeable jew for the many references for all the terms here in ( what is to us the old testament).
> ...


 
This act of the Spirit of God tells us the way into that inexpressible, intimate union of God with man is now WIDE OPEN. It is so wonderful for a Jew to see this for what it is and to come to the awareness of the free gift...
Christ the Lord ... and access to the Throne of the Father,
by His body and blood...
ONCE for ALL... who call/cry/ask,  ... believe.

It's too simple for most religius, and some of the Old Covenant, too.

But a torn veil means ... a fresh beginning,
and for all to come "boldly to the Throne of Grace".

What an invitation! What mercy/love the Father has shown in Christ the Lord!



On this I bid all readers a healthy New Year,
and to "Seek the Lord while He may be found"
in 2014


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## barryl (Jan 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to see anyone explain that. It appears to support soul sleep. When Jesus resurrected, so did those few saints. Many saints rather, maybe it was most of them.


A. D. Consider this, your soul doesn't sleep, your "flesh" does.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure if our souls go to Paradise or if they just go to sleep. Either way I don't believe we go to Heaven or He11 when we die. We must be judged first. What would be the point of coming back to earth for a body if we were already in Heaven?
> If we were already in Heaven enjoying the mansions, gardens, fountains,  music, streets of gold, beauty of the jewels, etc., why would we need a glorified body?



The more I study this issue, the more I rely on scripture only, the less I find evidence of a one time grand resurrection. It's just not supported by the bible.

Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection, there was some of the OT saints( not all )that were resurrected after Christ, others waiting on the last day, in which Paul said he lived in the last days..not us! This was the last days of the Old Covenant, there is no mention in the bible of the last days of Christs Kingdom that reigns forever! The last day came 70 ad or maybe two or three years after in 72..73 ad, the fields had to be plowed, this is when the rest of the saints would have been resurrected and Christ put a total end to Sheol, or paradise-- a holding place for the dead. Now Christ holds the key to death and hades...the resurrection is ongoing according to what scripture tells us. 

And me following scripture and going against church tradition makes me a heretic, just as Christ was. I tried hard to make a grand resurrection work because of what I've been taught all my life, but it doesn't hold up to scripture.

When we die we face judgement, and we are with our Lord, no sitting around waiting thousands of years---being held up in a grave ain't good news.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 14, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The more I study this issue, the more I rely on scripture only, the less I find evidence of a one time grand resurrection. It's just not supported by the bible.
> 
> Christ was the first fruits of the resurrection, there was some of the OT saints( not all )that were resurrected after Christ, others waiting on the last day, in which Paul said he lived in the last days..not us! This was the last days of the Old Covenant, there is no mention in the bible of the last days of Christs Kingdom that reigns forever! The last day came 70 ad or maybe two or three years after in 72..73 ad, the fields had to be plowed, this is when the rest of the saints would have been resurrected and Christ put a total end to Sheol, or paradise-- a holding place for the dead. Now Christ holds the key to death and hades...the resurrection is ongoing according to what scripture tells us.
> 
> ...



I see nothing wrong with reading the Scripture and forming your beliefs. You could be right and everyone else could be wrong. 
So in not seeing a grand resurrection, you don't see a grand judgement either? You don't believe in a physical resurrection like Jesus experienced?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to see anyone explain that. It appears to support soul sleep. When Jesus resurrected, so did those few saints. Many saints rather, maybe it was most of them.



I think it was 500 that were resurrected.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 14, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> So in not seeing a grand resurrection, you don't see a grand judgement either? You don't believe in a physical resurrection like Jesus experienced?



resurrection and judgement is ongoing, and no on the physical resurrection--from dust to dust, this flesh belongs to the world and our saved souls to Jesus.

Jesus was the firstborn from the dead Col. 1:18.

the firstfruits 1Cor. 15:20,23

and actually the first of the firstfuits Exod. 23:19; 34:26; Ezek. 44:30

After we read Matthew 27 about the others that were resurrected we know the resurrection had begun..Isa.26:19; Dan. 12:2; John 5:28-29

And the fact that the bible never says Christs kingdom ends.


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## barryl (Jan 16, 2014)

Consider this, Kingdom of Heaven{Physical}, Kingdom of God{Spiritual}


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## hobbs27 (Jan 16, 2014)

Synonymous


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## barryl (Jan 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Synonymous


Had to drop in a minute. Simular, Same?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2014)

barryl said:


> Had to drop in a minute. Simular, Same?



Exactly the same.


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## barryl (Jan 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Exactly the same.


We agree on a bunch of things, but this ain't one of em'. Seems like I remember a thread a ways back on this subject.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 29, 2014)

barryl said:


> We agree on a bunch of things, but this ain't one of em'. Seems like I remember a thread a ways back on this subject.



That's ok, we can disagree on things and still claim the blood of the one and only Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.


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## barryl (Jan 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> That's ok, we can disagree on things and still claim the blood of the one and only Savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 29, 2014)

The saints that resurrected with Jesus appeared to many. Did they see Spirits or physical bodies? Does the scripture tell us?

Matthew 27:52
New Living Translation
and tombs opened. The bodies of many godly men and women who had died were raised from the dead.

International Standard Version
tombs were opened, and many saints who had died were brought back to life. 

This was the only version that didn't use the word "body" or "bodies."

If just a spirit, why would the tombs need to be opened?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The saints that resurrected with Jesus appeared to many. Did they see Spirits or physical bodies? Does the scripture tell us?
> 
> Matthew 27:52
> New Living Translation
> ...



The witch of endor raised Samuel for Saul. Samuel told Saul he had been awakened from rest, and that Saul would find himself in the very place he was. Which tells me Samuel had to return to the grave. What does a spirit look like? Does it resemble the body? Certainly a spirit would be more recognizable than a decayed body.

Just a side note...The many that were resurrected, were resurrected after Christ not with Christ.. Christ was the first fruit.


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