# William James, illusion of free will.



## Artfuldodger (Dec 12, 2018)

Not really anything to do with religion or lack there of, just interesting.

Philosopher William James once fell into a deep depression when he had the notion that free will was an illusion. The way he brought himself out of the depression was to believe in free will again. He said since no one could prove it one way or the other, he would just believe in it and thus end his depression. The depression he had when he stopped believing in free will.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 12, 2018)

Who said "I have to believe in free will. I have no choice in the matter."


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## RegularJoe (Dec 18, 2018)

Can the atheist who subscribes to a belief system that all _is_ controlled 100% by the 'laws of physics' at the same time logically believe that he/she can actually exercise freewill?
And .... *if yes, 
then how does that work? * 
- Many thanks.
P.S. Simply fyi ... I am in no way putting forth that there is or is not freewill (aka selfwill) ..... am merely _trying_ to learn & _accurately_ understand everyone's bases for how our existence is viewed.


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## 660griz (Dec 18, 2018)

RegularJoe said:


> Can the atheist who subscribes to a belief system that all _is_ controlled 100% by the 'laws of physics' at the same time logically believe that he/she can actually exercise freewill?


Yes


> And .... *if yes,
> then how does that work?*



Easy. I don't believe in fate.
Free will def.: The ability to choose, think, and act voluntarily.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 18, 2018)

RegularJoe said:


> Can the atheist who subscribes to a belief system that all _is_ controlled 100% by the 'laws of physics' at the same time logically believe that he/she can actually exercise freewill?
> And .... *if yes,
> then how does that work? *
> - Many thanks.
> P.S. Simply fyi ... I am in no way putting forth that there is or is not freewill (aka selfwill) ..... am merely _trying_ to learn & _accurately_ understand everyone's bases for how our existence is viewed.


Free will is a philosophical term that encompasses a number of different philosophies..
So not sure the question "how does that work?" can be accurately answered.
You can read for days about the laws of physics vs. the philosophy of "free will".
Example -
https://www.quora.com/Do-the-laws-of-physics-allow-for-free-will-or-any-randomness-at-all


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## ambush80 (Dec 18, 2018)

Sam Harris makes an argument against freewill that I can't refute yet.  He wrote a short book about it that you might find interesting.  It's called _Freewill_.  This is his basic premise:

At 6:50:  "The Universe is pulling your strings".











At 7:18 Sam says "So pride and shame don't make much sense in the final analysis.  But they weren't that much fun anyway.  These are isolating emotions".


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## 660griz (Dec 18, 2018)

I just decided to leave work early. It is a pretty day out.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 18, 2018)

660griz said:


> I just decided to leave work early. It is a pretty day out.


No.... you were destined to take today off you just think you decided to


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Sam Harris makes an argument against freewill that I can't refute yet.  He wrote a short book about it that you might find interesting.  It's called _Freewill_.  This is his basic premise:
> 
> At 6:50:  "The Universe is pulling your strings".
> 
> ...





Another Jew wrote


"For who makes you to differ from another? and what have you that you did not receive? now if you did receive it, why do you glory, as if you had not received it?"

Sam is just reiterating what is _already known. _I don't fault him, but it is not a new understanding.

No less than "now we are in the process of building some sort of god..." as he mentioned in another place.

These things are not new...and his "now" I sense, is quite limited in his understanding and application. But that's how it works...what is new understanding to a man at first always seems he's the first to _really_ see it. Because to himself..._he really is._


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2018)

Wouldn't it be a great big relief though to entrust that your actions are the result of a divine being or even the physical laws of nature?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2018)

If one does believe in free will, then would that also mean that planets formed on their own? Man evolved on his own or by fate or happenstance.
Earthquakes, floods, hurricanes, just random things forming and going as they please.

All within the defines of physics of course.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2018)

A *hurricane* cannot *cross the equator* and change its rotation due to a property of physics known as the Coriolis effect.

If one does believe in God then he would have to also believe God made this property. Therefore even God who may have free will would have to operate under the laws he created.

Perhaps we have a sort of "limited" free will. God causing some actions and us performing others. That would mean God is acting or counteracting on our actions.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 18, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't it be a great big relief though to entrust that your actions are the result of a divine being or even the physical laws of nature?


For me, I don't think so.
I like being responsible for my own actions both positive and negative.
Some of what I consider to be my greatest accomplishments were due to accepting the fact that it was me causing my own problems.


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## Israel (Dec 19, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> A *hurricane* cannot *cross the equator* and change its rotation due to a property of physics known as the Coriolis effect.
> 
> If one does believe in God then he would have to also believe God made this property. Therefore even God who may have free will would have to operate under the laws he created.
> 
> Perhaps we have a sort of "limited" free will. God causing some actions and us performing others. That would mean God is acting or counteracting on our actions.





> If one does believe in God then he would have to also believe God made this property. Therefore even God who may have free will would have to operate under the laws he created.




How so? What would have the authority to hold God _under_ anything?


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## 660griz (Dec 19, 2018)

Israel said:


> How so? What would have the authority to hold God _under_ anything?


Virtually anyone can hold an imaginary omnipotent being '_under'_ anything.

*“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. 
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. 
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? *
*Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”* 
―       Epicurus


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## Israel (Dec 19, 2018)

Yes, in virtual reality.


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## 660griz (Dec 19, 2018)

Israel said:


> Yes, in virtual reality.


AKA Religion.


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## Israel (Dec 19, 2018)

Immaculate Temple of the Epicureans?
Primitive Epicurean?
Epicurus' Witnesses?


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## RegularJoe (Dec 19, 2018)

*AMBUSH80* - Many, many thanks.
I have _carefully_ watched and benefited from your above two 10 minute vids.
_Both_ are immensely helpful in educating me exactly in response to my posted question.


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## ambush80 (Dec 19, 2018)

RegularJoe said:


> *AMBUSH80* - Many, many thanks.
> I have _carefully_ watched and benefited from your above two 10 minute vids.
> _Both_ are immensely helpful in educating me exactly in response to my posted question.



I'm glad they were useful to you


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