# Atheist and Christians can finally agree !



## wholenotem (Jun 19, 2009)

I was reading my Bible when I came across this verse, and realized that atheist and christains can agree on a bible verse. So.... maybe there's hope for atheists after all.

1Co 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


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## donjon25 (Jun 19, 2009)

True dat!!!!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

FYI.... everyone, eventually, perishes.


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## Huntinfool (Jun 19, 2009)

Physically....yes.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Physically....yes.



The physical is all that is known.


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## earl (Jun 19, 2009)

Egotistical on your part.


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## post450 (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> FYI.... everyone, eventually, perishes.



To quote the great Lee Corso " ...not so fast, my friend". 

Apparently your interpretation of "perish" is drastically different from mine. The Greek word "apollymi" which is translated into "perish" from John 3:16 does not mean to die, but to be utterly destroyed. BTW, there is a Greek word for natural death and that is "apothnesko". Wonder why John didn't choose to use that word instead of one meaning utter destruction? Sure this physical body will eventually die, but how do you know that the soul doesn't live on? To apply an atheistic type spin, what proof can you present the soul does not live on?


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## Lead Poison (Jun 19, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> FYI.... everyone, eventually, perishes.



FYI, all of us will spend eternity in one of two places; heaven or the other really hot place.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

post450 said:


> To quote the great Lee Corso " ...not so fast, my friend".
> 
> Apparently your interpretation of "perish" is drastically different from mine. The Greek word "apollymi" which is translated into "perish" from John 3:16 does not mean to die, but to be utterly destroyed. BTW, there is a Greek word for natural death and that is "apothnesko". Wonder why John didn't choose to use that word instead of one meaning utter destruction? Sure this physical body will eventually die, but how do you know that the soul doesn't live on? To apply an atheistic type spin, what proof can you present the soul does not live on?




Well first you have to prove we have a soul.
Then we can go from there....


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 19, 2009)

Lead Poison said:


> FYI, all of us will spend eternity in one of two places; heaven or the other really hot place.



You got verifiable proof?


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## wholenotem (Jun 20, 2009)

For you doubters , "does the soul live on,  Google the" weight of a soul " I hope this will inspire you to dig a little deeper into the:  "What if those crazy Christians are right" thinking!
Because if we are,(and I know we are!) why would you want to take such a careless ride through life with your everlasting soul hanging in the balance.
Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?


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## THREEJAYS (Jun 20, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> For you doubters , "does the soul live on,  Google the" weight of a soul " I hope this will inspire you to dig a little deeper into the:  "What if those crazy Christians are right" thinking!
> Because if we are,(and I know we are!) why would you want to take such a careless ride through life with your everlasting soul hanging in the balance.
> Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?



Along these lines, if we are right we have all to gain and if we were wrong what have we lost?


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## christianhunter (Jun 20, 2009)

It's plain and simple,atheists are just in an equal state as a humanist.They worship "self".That way they have no one to Thank,no one to obey,or honor.Just themselves,then they can justify their sins,and evil deeds.Ever noticed them say,"I'm not evil","I'm not a bad person".They are in a delusion,of self.Their motto should be,Me,Myself,and I.


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> For you doubters , "does the soul live on,  Google the" weight of a soul " I hope this will inspire you to dig a little deeper into the:  "What if those crazy Christians are right" thinking!
> Because if we are,(and I know we are!) why would you want to take such a careless ride through life with your everlasting soul hanging in the balance.
> Mr 8:36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?





THREEJAYS said:


> Along these lines, if we are right we have all to gain and if we were wrong what have we lost?



You're taking just as big of a risk.   What if you show up at the pearly gates and it's Allah answering the door?  But of course you KNOW for certain that that would never happen.


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## wholenotem (Jun 20, 2009)

Why  am I the one taking the risk? I believe in God ,not you!


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> Why  am I the one taking the risk? I believe in God ,not you!




What if it is the wrong god?


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## ambush80 (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> What if it is the wrong god?



Exactly.  

Its funny how they don't see that they're rolling the dice just like everybody else; Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists....at least Atheists base their beliefs on evidence they've got first hand knowledge of; namely that they have never seen any proof of God.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> What if it is the wrong god?



What if it's not?


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> You're taking just as big of a risk.   What if you show up at the pearly gates and it's Allah answering the door?  But of course you KNOW for certain that that would never happen.



Well i'd be horrified, I don't want 59 virgins as a reward...seems like a lame reward to me for killing as many people on earth as I can....and besides I'd rather be seperated from that kind of god...so it would still work out.  Now that seems more like hades to me.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Its funny how they don't see that they're rolling the dice just like everybody else; Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Atheists....at least Atheists base their beliefs on evidence they've got first hand knowledge of; namely that they have never seen any proof of God.



I don't want what the hindus want either...if I don't get it right I come back until I get it right...well that wouldn't be too bad would it? but I'd prefer not to keep trying.

As far as atheists go and their first hand knowledge...people thought the earth was flat at one time because that's all they could see. I have hope for more, good thing other explorers did, too, or we'd all be stuck on one continent so as to not fall off the edge of the earth.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> As far as atheists go and their first hand knowledge...people thought the earth was flat at one time because that's all they could see. I have hope for more, good thing other explorers did, too, or we'd all be stuck on one continent so as to not fall off the edge of the earth.



They did a funny thing called exploration.  That provided results and factual data.  Faith provides neither.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> They did a funny thing called exploration.  That provided results and factual data.  Faith provides neither.



They had faith they would find something, didn't they, or they wouldn't have gone...launch out into the deep.
They didn't know before they went did they? that's my point..they didn't know, they just had faith.

Faith they would find something didn't benefit anyone? obviously it did, we are here and the earth ain't flat.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Faith has nothing to do with it.
You can bet they took all the information that was available and went forward very knowledgeable and educated regarding sea travel.  From reading the stars, to reading the weather, to known navigational tools and to include boatbuilding technology.
They did nothing blindly, nor did they make any assumptions.  They used their minds to find answers to questions no book could give.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Faith has nothing to do with it.
> You can bet they took all the information that was available and went forward very knowledgeable and educated regarding sea travel.  From reading the stars, to reading the weather, to known navigational tools and to include boatbuilding technology.
> They did nothing blindly, nor did they make any assumptions.  They used their minds to find answers to questions no book could give.



If they knew all that why did everyone think the earth was flat? Why did it have to be proved that it wasn't? If someone knew it wasn't before they made the first launch then someone had faith in something, if nothing more than they wouldn't fall off the flat surface.
Nothing you can twist can make me believe that people don't do things in faith.
Everytime I eat out I eat out in the faith that I'm not gonna die from some disease from some nasty cook who didn't wash his hands.

I'm glad you are so sure of life that everything is set for you and don't work on faith in anything.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Well i'd be horrified, I don't want 59 virgins as a reward....



I thought it was 70 virgins?!?    



mtnwoman said:


> If they knew all that why did everyone think the earth was flat? Why did it have to be proved that it wasn't?



Because that's what one person in power said, and all of the rest of the sheep believed blindly


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I thought it was 70 virgins?!?    *70, 12, 94..*
> 
> 
> 
> Because that's what one person in power said, and all of the rest of the sheep believed blindly


 *Really, well that's more like it. That's what I suspected.*


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## christianhunter (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> What if it is the wrong god?



The unbelievers will not get in there either way.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> The unbelievers will not get in there either way.



Prove "there" exists.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> If they knew all that why did everyone think the earth was flat? Why did it have to be proved that it wasn't? If someone knew it wasn't before they made the first launch then someone had faith in something, if nothing more than they wouldn't fall off the flat surface.
> Nothing you can twist can make me believe that people don't do things in faith.
> Everytime I eat out I eat out in the faith that I'm not gonna die from some disease from some nasty cook who didn't wash his hands.
> 
> I'm glad you are so sure of life that everything is set for you and don't work on faith in anything.



You are confusing faith with a belief in and trust in documented experience.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> If they knew all that why did everyone think the earth was flat?



That's just the point.  Not everyone believed in the superstition.  Somebody did the homework, and prepared to make a journey to prove the superstition wrong.
And they did just that.

Amazing.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Prove "there" exists.





He can't prove it exist.

And you don't have to believe it.

Why are you still here on this spiritual forum?
I wish you folks would please allow this to be a spiritual forum again.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> He can't prove it exist.
> 
> And you don't have to believe it.
> 
> ...



You don't want a "spiritual" forum.  You want a Christian King James Version forum.

Why can differences in beliefs, systems and ideals not be tolerated here?


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

post450 said:


> To apply an atheistic type spin, what proof can you present the soul does not live on?



It is the duty of the believer to provide proof of the existance of a soul, not the unbeliever.


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

No, it is the duty of believers to present the good news of the gospel to a lost and dying world. It is your choice to accept or reject.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> No, it is the duty of believers to present the good news of the gospel to a lost and dying world. It is your choice to accept or reject.




When the "lost and dying world" presents valid questions regarding how SOME parts of the same gospel were created, found, rejected, destroyed, written, translated, interpreted, edited, borrowed from, un-substantiated, un-proven and even historically suspect believers get frustrated.  And it quickly gets personal.

How many believers (of whatever religious belief system) really know where their belief system began and how it was molded into what it is today?
Can they explain the exclusivity, especially when compared to other religious belief systems?

It is intriguing to some how logic, reason and proof can be so quickly dominated by faith in whatever deity they have chosen.  That's the fundamental basis for discussion.
How the particular belief system works is secondary.


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## Lowjack (Jun 20, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> The physical is all that is known.


To you,LOL


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM: Iwould refer you back to the verse quoted in the o.p. Please don't stumble over the simplicity of the news of the gospel.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> WTM: Iwould refer you back to the verse quoted in the o.p. Please don't stumble over the simplicity of the news of the gospel.




The very basis of the tenent is complex.  It is not simplistic at all.


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

No, it's very simple. Each one of us is born a sinner and seperated from God by our sins. Christ came to die and be the once and for all perfect sacrifice for my sins and yours so that we can be reconciled to God.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> No, it's very simple. Each one of us is born a sinner and seperated from God by our sins. Christ came to die and be the once and for all perfect sacrifice for my sins and yours so that we can be reconciled to God.




It is very much deeper and more complex than that.
Belief in a deity, belief in an eternity, belief in a tenent of original sin, belief in a human sacrifice requirement, belief in many pagan and mythological adaptations found in the holy books, belief in exclusion, belief in exclusivity, belief in selection................


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> No, it's very simple. Each one of us is born a sinner and seperated from God by our sins. Christ came to die and be the once and for all perfect sacrifice for my sins and yours so that we can be reconciled to God.



Yes, it is simple. It is simple for all Believers to understand. However, it is also spiritually discerned. Until the Holy Spirit works on a person, that simple truth is like DNA science to a 1st grader. Unbelievers have no natural hope/means of understanding that simple trurh. All we as believers can do is present it and pray that the Holy Spirit has done His part. I try to remember all of that when witnessing in person and especially when posting here. Unbelievers will be dumbfounded, asking for "proof" and sometimes hostile to the message. They are in the grips of Satan and until the Holy Spirit is inclined to help them out, they will stay that way. God works as He will.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

Oh yes.  I forgot to mention the belief in the mystical ghost like power that chooses when it will appear and with who it will appear to.
My bad.  Thanks!


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Oh yes.  I forgot to mention the belief in the mystical ghost like power that chooses when it will appear and with who it will appear to.
> My bad.  Thanks!



No problem. You're welcome.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> You got verifiable proof?



That's probably what the King said when he financed a trip around the flat earth....


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

I know that sounded sarcastic.  I'm only trying to express what many people who I have met from around the globe and from many different cultures think regarding the Christian belief system.

We who were born into it do not always understand how truly hard it is to see some of the tenents as being pretty strange and even unbelievable.

But don't worry, most other religious belief systems appear just as strange to those not born into them too.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> That's probably what the King said when he financed a trip around the flat earth....



Nah.  The king/queen had already won by the earlier explorations.  Plenty of gold and valuables had been obtained by force, so money was not the object.
Greed for expansion and the desire to conquer was the principal drivers.


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I know that sounded sarcastic.  I'm only trying to express what many people who I have met from around the globe and from many different cultures think regarding the Christian belief system.
> 
> We who were born into it do not always understand how truly hard it is to see some of the tenents as being pretty strange and even unbelievable.
> 
> But don't worry, most other religious belief systems appear just as strange to those not born into them too.



I completely understand your point. I was once lost myself. I tried to "reason" it all out and got nowhere. I truly felt the Holy Spirit move in my life and I am now 100% confident of my eternal salvation. It is truth and completely correct to say that until He moves, you can't. All I can do is live the life He commands (lifestyle evangalism) and witness as He commands. The rest is up to Him.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Nah.  The king/queen had already won by the earlier explorations.  Plenty of gold and valuables had been obtained by force, so money was not the object.
> Greed for expansion and the desire to conquer was the principal drivers.



I know that....my point was the explorer didn't have verifiable proof that the earth wasn't flat to show a naysayer, any naysayer.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I completely understand your point. I was once lost myself. I tried to "reason" it all out and got nowhere. I truly felt the Holy Spirit move in my life and I am now 100% confident of my eternal salvation. It is truth and completely correct to say that until He moves, you can't. All I can do is live the life He commands (lifestyle evangalism) and witness as He commands. The rest is up to Him.




And I respect that greatly, as it is very personal and highly individualistic by nature.

I can not say I have never felt something during a worship service.  I've been to more than a few a few different revivals, church services, mass, temple and even a druid worship in Europe.
My own interpretation of the various feelings pointed to emotion.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I completely understand your point. I was once lost myself. I tried to "reason" it all out and got nowhere. I truly felt the Holy Spirit move in my life and I am now 100% confident of my eternal salvation. It is truth and completely correct to say that until He moves, you can't. All I can do is live the life He commands (lifestyle evangalism) and witness as He commands. The rest is up to Him.



I agree.

I know this is sort of a corny testimony but it's a true one.

I was far away from God when I lost my job at Bellsouth. I got a job contracting out work for them in a tiny office with a corner desk. The first week I was there I was bored out of my mind. I found a book.."The Holy Spirit" by Billy Graham. I was desperate and bored enough to read it. It change my life. So I can say the HS dropped in on me unexpectedly for real.

Come to find out the lady at another office had accidentally left the book there while she was training me for the job.

Believe it or not.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I know that....my point was the explorer didn't have verifiable proof that the earth wasn't flat to show a naysayer, any naysayer.



The scientific method chosen provided the proof.  They completed the trip.  Well, some did, many died on the way.
Didn't need faith to begin the experiment.  Just a desire to test the theory using the tools at their disposal.


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## tell sackett (Jun 20, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I completely understand your point. I was once lost myself. I tried to "reason" it all out and got nowhere. I truly felt the Holy Spirit move in my life and I am now 100% confident of my eternal salvation. It is truth and completely correct to say that until He moves, you can't. All I can do is live the life He commands (lifestyle evangalism) and witness as He commands. The rest is up to Him.



Well said brother.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> My own interpretation of the various feelings pointed to emotion.



That's where it effects me. When I'm humbled to my knees, I cry. Tears of joy, tears of relief, tears of pain, whatever it is. He was bruised and bled on the inside for our infirmities which are on our insides... our hearts, our emotions, our weaknesses, our anger, our unforgiveness, etc.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I agree.
> 
> I know this is sort of a corny testimony but it's a true one.
> 
> ...




I don't think she accidently left the book there.  She intended for you to read it.

I'd bet Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion" would have an impact on you as well.

Can those two potential impacts (each is different in scope) be simply individual emotional responses?


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## mtnwoman (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The scientific method chosen provided the proof.  They completed the trip.  Well, some did, many died on the way.
> Didn't need faith to begin the experiment.  Just a desire to test the theory using the tools at their disposal.



Ok whatever...they didn't have faith then.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You don't want a "spiritual" forum.  You want a Christian King James Version forum.
> 
> Why can differences in beliefs, systems and ideals not be tolerated here?



My friend, don't believe for one moment that I believe you are here for the above reasons.

You aren't here because of our diverse spiritual beliefs here.  I've never seen any indication that you have any desire to have anything spiritual.
You seem to disagree with everything spiritual.


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## WTM45 (Jun 20, 2009)

See, faith takes the place of proofs and evidence.  Faith requires neither, and stands on its own as the answer to questions that sometimes are unanswerable.


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I don't think she accidently left the book there.  She intended for you to read it.
> 
> I'd bet Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion" would have an impact on you as well.
> 
> Can those two potential impacts (each is different in scope) be simply individual emotional responses?



On the last part, there is a kernel of truth there. True repentence is not based on an emotional response. You will know the difference by the difference. A person touched by the Holy Spirit and convicted unto Salvation will change. That change will be evident in their lives. That change will go beyond mere lip service or ritual that is indicitive of an emotional response only. It's that whole "fruit" thing we have discussed.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> My friend, don't believe for one moment that I believe you are here for the above reasons.
> 
> You aren't here because of our diverse spiritual beliefs here.  I've never seen any indication that you have any desire to have anything spiritual.
> You seem to disagree with everything spiritual.




I disagree with that!

I'm just joking here.  Seriously, I only seek to view how others express what they stand for and believe, and why they do not consider other points of view as valid.
The exclusivity of religious belief systems intrigues me to no end.


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## PWalls (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Ok whatever...they didn't have faith then.



I think they had faith in their conviction. But, from a purely historical standpoint, I do believe that people were proving the "curvature" of the earth prior to the exploration in question. I think WTM45 is just pointing that out in his endearing way and using it to discredit your "faith" argument.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I don't think she accidently left the book there.  She intended for you to read it.
> 
> I'd bet Richard Dawkins book "The God Delusion" would have an impact on you as well.
> 
> Can those two potential impacts (each is different in scope) be simply individual emotional responses?



Perhaps she did....she didn't know me. She was reading it the only day she trained me and called me to see if she left it there and would I bring it when I got my paycheck.

But if you wanna put it that way, that was someone else working at the urging of the HS to get to me. I praise Him for that. I never thought of it that way, thanks for bringing that up. That makes it a less simplistic testimony. 

Use me Lord in the same way to bring someone closer to You.

I keep a copy of the book to give someone who doesn't know the HS. I was raised Christian but had no clue about the HS...kinda like the day of pentecost. Sweet Holy Spirit, fall on me.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

PWalls said:


> On the last part, there is a kernel of truth there. True repentence is not based on an emotional response. You will know the difference by the difference. A person touched by the Holy Spirit and convicted unto Salvation will change. That change will be evident in their lives. That change will go beyond mere lip service or ritual that is indicitive of an emotional response only. It's that whole "fruit" thing we have discussed.




OK.  Then can we say those who commit to their deity or religious belief system which is different than Christianity, they do not have a change?  And it is a difference in their lives?  They are not repentant?  They are not committed?

Ritual is a pretty interesting term.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It is the duty of the believer to provide proof of the existance of a soul, not the unbeliever.




Truthfully, neither can be proven.
And it is not the duty of the believer to provide proof of the existance of a soul.
It is the duty of the believer to defend his Savior.  Beyond that you either come to believe, or you walk away.

It is an impossibility to prove the existance of a soul while here in our present lives.

Now, tell us about your spiritual beliefs?????????????


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## PWalls (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I Seriously, I only seek to view how others express what they stand for and believe, and why they do not consider other points of view as valid.
> The exclusivity of religious belief systems intrigues me to no end.



How can everyone be "right"? How can a Christian who is secure in their Salvation and belief in the Holy Bible as the inspired Word of God and trust the words in it for their education and faith believe in other "paths/ways" to Salvation when that very book says there is only one single way? The answer is that they can't. That explains the exclusivm. But, I am quite comfortable in being in the exclusive club.


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## tell sackett (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And I respect that greatly, as it is very personal and highly individualistic by nature.
> 
> I can not say I have never felt something during a worship service.  I've been to more than a few a few different revivals, church services, mass, temple and even a druid worship in Europe.
> My own interpretation of the various feelings pointed to emotion.


WTM: Can you be absolutely 100% sure about that? Sounds like the work of the Holy Spirit to me!


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I think they had faith in their conviction. But, from a purely historical standpoint, I do believe that people were proving the "curvature" of the earth prior to the exploration in question. I think WTM45 is just pointing that out in his endearing way and using it to discredit your "faith" argument.



Yes, I know.


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## PWalls (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> OK.  Then can we say those who commit to their deity or religious belief system which is different than Christianity, they do not have a change?  And it is a difference in their lives?  They are not repentant?  They are not committed?
> 
> Ritual is a pretty interesting term.



This world is full of "good intentions". And, there are plenty of non-believers who do great and good works who try to better themselves and this world. I commend them for that effort (and successes). But, going back to that Book I love and trust, those "works" are as filthy rags compared to God's righteousness.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

PWalls said:


> I think they had faith in their conviction. But, from a purely historical standpoint, I do believe that people were proving the "curvature" of the earth prior to the exploration in question. I think WTM45 is just pointing that out in his endearing way and using it to discredit your "faith" argument.



There was no faith, nor conviction.  There was a scientific experiment to conduct and they used the tools available to do it.  The result supported their hypothesis.

Faith applies to religions, as proofs and evidence have to be replaced with something.

It does not require faith to cross a bridge when in accordance with the weight limitations.  That is a belief based on the statistical proven probablilty the bridge will hold just as it has for a certain number of others who have crossed it.
Even the first person across a new bridge has the calculations, inspection reports and testing results to depend on.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> When the "lost and dying world" presents valid questions regarding how SOME parts of the same gospel were created, found, rejected, destroyed, written, translated, interpreted, edited, borrowed from, un-substantiated, un-proven and even historically suspect believers get frustrated.  And it quickly gets personal.
> 
> How many believers (of whatever religious belief system) really know where their belief system began and how it was molded into what it is today?
> Can they explain the exclusivity, especially when compared to other religious belief systems?
> ...



Your above questions remind me of Br. Dave Gardner from back in the 60's.  He was a commedian.  One of his more intellectual statements went like this:   "Blessed are those who go around in circles for they shall be call the 'big wheels'.
Your words and statements often go round in circles.

Please, tells us about your spiritual foundation and beliefs, since this is a spiritual forum??????


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> It is the duty of the believer to provide proof of the existance of a soul, not the unbeliever.



No, it isn't. We don't have any way to prove that to unbelievers other than to use the word of God which unbelievers don't believe.
I know because I was once an unbeliever, and for many years. I didn't want to hear it, didn't want to believe it, so I didn't.


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## PWalls (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> There was no faith, nor conviction.  There was a scientific experiment to conduct and they used the tools available to do it.  The result supported their hypothesis.
> 
> Faith applies to religions, as proofs and evidence have to be replaced with something.
> 
> ...



Actually, there was a great deal of faith. Unless good ole Christopher Columbus performed those curvature calculations himself, then he had "faith" that someone else did it correctly. He built his plan of action on his "faith" in other's works.

And, that first person across a bridge has "faith" in the calculations and test results as well. He has "faith" to think they were done correctly. Did he see the test results? Did he have the intelligence to understand the calculations? If not, then he has "faith" in someone else's ability.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> WTM: Can you be absolutely 100% sure about that? Sounds like the work of the Holy Spirit to me!




Absolutely sure, as it did not move me to rend my clothing, talk in tongues, give away my measly fortune or commit to a life of poverty and servitude.
I did not even feel the unexplained urge to go back again.
And once I was not forced to go (to honor the wishes of my parents) I have not felt a need to return.
I go sometimes from curiosity, other times purely on invite.
Weddings, funerals, etc.......
Yes, I am very respectful when attending.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> There was no faith, nor conviction.  There was a scientific experiment to conduct and they used the tools available to do it.  The result supported their hypothesis.
> 
> Faith applies to religions, as proofs and evidence have to be replaced with something.
> 
> ...




You mean to tell me it doesn't take faith to eat at KFC? I've not eaten there for 20 yrs or whenever the rat incident was, you could say I lack faith.....LOL


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Absolutely sure, as it did not move me to rend my clothing, talk in tongues, give away my measly fortune or commit to a life of poverty and servitude.



I've never seen any of that....maybe you went to the wrong place. Try again.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Actually, there was a great deal of faith. Unless good ole Christopher Columbus performed those curvature calculations himself, then he had "faith" that someone else did it correctly. He built his plan of action on his "faith" in other's works.
> 
> And, that first person across a bridge has "faith" in the calculations and test results as well. He has "faith" to think they were done correctly. Did he see the test results? Did he have the intelligence to understand the calculations? If not, then he has "faith" in someone else's ability.



Columbus had quite the education and experience.  Trips to the new world were but a vacation jaunt to him.
Magellan took on the real challenge.

You are confusing faith and belief.  In a big time way.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I know that sounded sarcastic.  I'm only trying to express what many people who I have met from around the globe and from many different cultures think regarding the Christian belief system.
> 
> We who were born into it do not always understand how truly hard it is to see some of the tenents as being pretty strange and even unbelievable.
> 
> But don't worry, most other religious belief systems appear just as strange to those not born into them too.



I was not born into "IT".  I was not brainwashed.  I have not be hypnotized.  And, I have a college education.
And for me, the only thing unbelievable concerning God is His forgiveness.

But again, what are your spiritual beliefs?


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> You mean to tell me it doesn't take faith to eat at KFC? I've not eaten there for 20 yrs or whenever the rat incident was, you could say I lack faith.....LOL




That's trust and belief in the FDA, the state inspection guidelines and the dedication to cleanliness the owner/operator imparts on their employees.

Faith is an Original Recipe leg tasting like Original Recipe, not Extra Crispy!


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> WTM: Can you be absolutely 100% sure about that? Sounds like the work of the Holy Spirit to me!



Some people don't get that....the first, second or hundreth time.
It took me 26 years of living far away from God, before the Holy Spirit overcame me, tackled me, thumped me on the head...DUR hey you...how many times does it take?  Thank God I did not totally quench that.

My life changed in a day, or maybe less, maybe the second I got it...the light came on. The spirit fell on my heart and that was that.  I then could see all the other times that I pushed the Holy Spirit away. How many times He was there and I didn't let Him in.


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## PWalls (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You are confusing faith and belief.  In a big time way.



I think they are co-dependent with respect to Biblical truth. You can't have one without the other.


Take it a step further in the "real" world then for you.

Someone you know and trust tellsyou to step off the bridge because the law of gravity has been suspended. You step off. Did you step off because of your "faith" in that person's altruism towards you? Did you step off because of your "belief" that the person knew what they were talking about? You had no chance to prove or test anything yourself. Your only basis for decision was that person and your relationship to them. I think you protrayed faith and belief when you stepped off.


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## PWalls (Jun 21, 2009)

Sorry guys. Just looked at the clock. I'm going to be yawning in sunday school if I don't get some shut eye. Take care.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I was not born into "IT".  I was not brainwashed.  I have not be hypnotized.  And, I have a college education.
> And for me, the only thing unbelievable concerning God is His forgiveness.
> 
> But again, what are your spiritual beliefs?



Being born in America means being born into the Christian belief system WHEN COMPARED to the rest of the world.

My spiritual beliefs really don't add to nor detract from the discussion.  I have no need to provide supporting argument for any religious belief system.  Or for Atheism for that matter.
I'm very agnostic.
I do not de facto move to the conclusion there is no deity simply because there is no evidence.
There might be evidence yet found for such an existance.
It might be completely different than anything described up to this point and time.
Then again, it might not be anything at all.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> That's trust and belief in the FDA, the state inspection guidelines and the dedication to cleanliness the owner/operator imparts on their employees.
> 
> Faith is an Original Recipe leg tasting like Original Recipe, not Extra Crispy!



Yeah well the rat slipped by, I doesn't haz the faith no mo'even in the fda

FDA has let us down more than once...bad tomatoes even...my faith in them has deteriorated immensely and so has my trust and belief(also a word connected to religion)


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> See, faith takes the place of proofs and evidence.  Faith requires neither, and stands on its own as the answer to questions that sometimes are unanswerable*.(unproveable*)



I think that's the way I would put it.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

PWalls said:


> Someone you know and trust tellsyou to step off the bridge because the law of gravity has been suspended. You step off. Did you step off because of your "faith" in that person's altruism towards you? Did you step off because of your "belief" that the person knew what they were talking about? You had no chance to prove or test anything yourself. Your only basis for decision was that person and your relationship to them. I think you protrayed faith and belief when you stepped off.



I'd first drop a rock.
A quick and simple self conducted scientific experiment that has a very low risk of self destruction!

Putting on a parachute someone else packed and jumping out of a perfectly good airplane at 1400'agl reflects trust and belief in proven data from previous experimentation.
If it fails, yep, there is a great let-down I admit.

Have a great day tomorrow!  I hear it is quite warm in GA!
AC time!


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I think that's the way I would put it.



Some folks require proof for definitive answers.


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## footjunior (Jun 21, 2009)

This is another argument about definitions.

What is your definition of "blind faith", "faith", "trust", "belief"?

I agree with WTM45 but only because I think our definition of "faith" matches up pretty well. If we didn't agree on what faith meant, then we would likely disagree about the whole earth is round discussion.

I think mtnwoman means faith in a different sense. I think she's talking more about trust than faith.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

faithâ€‚â€‚/feÉªÎ¸/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth]  Show IPA 
–noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.  
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> faith  /feɪθ/  Show Spelled Pronunciation [feyth]  Show IPA
> –noun 1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
> 2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.





This is not meant to be a firey dart or a $2.00 stone.

Do you eat in  out in any public establishments anymore ?
My point is ,if you do you have gone beyond faith in the FDA. You know that they are not infallible ,but on the whole they do what they are supposed to do. Just like ,on whole, those involved in shipping knew that what they observed ,while possibly wrong, was exactly what was true.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Faith is only a "confidence or trust in a person or thing" when that person or thing is not confirmed to exist.
If a person or thing exists, then it is trust.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> This is not meant to be a firey dart or a $2.00 stone.
> 
> Do you eat in  out in any public establishments anymore ?
> My point is ,if you do you have gone beyond faith in the FDA. You know that they are not infallible ,but on the whole they do what they are supposed to do. Just like ,on whole, those involved in shipping knew that what they observed ,while possibly wrong, was exactly what was true.



Yeah well I still don't have much faith in the process that everyone is doing their job to the best of their ability. I could be wrong, but someone would have to prove that to me.  Sorta like...why do we keep importing from China?


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Faith is only a "confidence or trust in a person or thing" when that person or thing is not confirmed to exist.
> If a person or thing exists, then it is trust.



BINGO!

First comes faith, my whole point on the flat earth thing...before it was proven to be a fact, people were launching out in faith to prove it, then it became trust when they returned and told folks.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> BINGO!
> 
> First comes faith, my whole point on the flat earth thing...before it was proven to be a fact, people were launching out in faith to prove it, then it became trust when they returned and told folks.



Actually, they had much data already confirming their hypothesis, so it was not faith that got them started.
They just proved the hypothesis, they did not prove the existance of a spherical earth.  Very few held the incorrect superstition.  Math and Astrology had already presented strong data.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Actually, they had much data already confirming their hypothesis, so it was not faith that got them started.
> They just proved the hypothesis, they did not prove the existance of a spherical earth.  Very few held the incorrect superstition.  Math and Astrology had already presented strong data.



I have trust in myself and my knowledge that I can make it back from the store in one piece....I don't have proof that I will return, until I return,I do have faith that I will return.

I have all the right data to get to the store and back, I also know how to navigate to get to the store that I'm going to.  But I don't have positive proof until I get back that I got back. 

So I have faith in my belief of getting to the store and back safely, trust in my knowledge of data, and only faith in other drivers to do what they are suppose to do, I don't trust other drivers, I have to blindly have faith that they won't kill me on the highway, no positive proof.

So I'm launching out in faith that I can prove that I can get back home without incident, no proof yet, until I return.

And y'all won't know, proof positive that I got back until I tell you that I got back, and you still have no proof that I even went to the store. You'll just have to trust me and have faith in me that I'm not lying about it....LOL


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

One should live their lives knowing exactly what they are capable of doing.  Trial and error is the primary test.
There is plenty of positive proof of surviving.  The statistical data supports the odds.

Trust and belief, yes.  Faith?  Unnecessary.


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I have trust in myself and my knowledge that I can make it back from the store in one piece....I don't have proof that I will return, until I return,I do have faith that I will return.
> 
> I have all the right data to get to the store and back, I also know how to navigate to get to the store that I'm going to.  But I don't have positive proof until I get back that I got back.
> 
> ...





That puts Abbott and Costello's'' Who's on First ''to shame.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> That puts Abbott and Costello's'' Who's on First ''to shame.




LOL...thanks...LOL

As you see I made it back. You'll just have to trust me on that, cause you can't prove I even went, but I did. You can't really trust me cause you don't really know me, you'll just have to have faith that I'm telling the truth.

And really who cares.....


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Trust and belief, yes.  Faith?  Unnecessary.



I totally disagree. I can have trust and belief in my ability to drive, but only faith that someone else heading my can drive, since I have NO information to base trust or belief on about them.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I totally disagree. I can have trust and belief in my ability to drive, but only faith that someone else heading my can drive, since I have NO information to base trust or belief on about them.



Sure you do.  You have repeated drives under your belt proving it is highly probable there will be no accident due to another's inability to drive.
You know the requirement for operation of a motor vehicle in Georgia.  You know the rules and laws.
You know the dependability of the modern automobile.
You know the safety features of the modern automobile.
You know the condition of the roads on which the vehicle will travel.
You know the condition of the vehicle you will operate.

If you do not know any one of those variables, you still know some of them and it is up to you to do the required homework BEFORE the experiment begins.

The statistics regarding motor vehicle accidents are there and verifiable.  They are highly accurate.

The small chance of an accident occuring does not make the overall activity of driving so risky that it is not suggested people participate.

If there was no trust and belief, everyone would give up their license and quit driving.
It does not take faith to operate a motor vehicle.  Faith is the belief in something that has NO data, NO proofs, NO results, NO confirmation, NO historical record, NO evidence of existance.

I know the Atlanta area has a large percentage of uninsured drivers.  I hold higher levels of UM coverage to offset that risk.  That's not faith in an insurer, that is belief they will perform as agreed to by contract.

But then, I guess some live their day to day lives with the "FAITH" that gravity will not let them go flying off into space.


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## Yankee Moved South (Jun 21, 2009)

If not for the current "know everyting now " world we live in , thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people would be waiting on Hale Bopp or worshiping David Koresh. Religion is a wonderful thing for some people and blind faith is much harder for others to grasp. 

The charisma of the preacher has far to great an influence on its followers. If you choose to believe in a god. Regardless of which, it is a personal choice that nobody should question. So long as its a faith that drives morals and respect to others. 

Not sure why I posted ... Im dont typicaly engage in this type of conversation because it's far to emotional for many to handle. I think it's important to respect the belief of others and hope they find solace in that belief. 

Wow I just posted on this and supect I will regret it in the end.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Yankee Moved South said:


> If not for the current "know everyting now " world we live in , thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people would be waiting on Hale Bopp or worshiping David Koresh. Religion is a wonderful thing for some people and blind faith is much harder for others to grasp.
> 
> The charisma of the preacher has far to great an influence on its followers. If you choose to believe in a god. Regardless of which, it is a personal choice that nobody should question. So long as its a faith that drives morals and respect to others.
> 
> ...




Welcome!

This is what happens in discussion and debate.  People speak of their beliefs, some ask questions, and some will disagree with interpretations and issues.
Nothing gets personal, unless someone lets it get personal.

People should always question something that is so powerful it is used to manipulate and control others.


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## Dixie Dawg (Jun 21, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Yeah well the rat slipped by, I doesn't haz the faith no mo'even in the fda
> 
> FDA has let us down more than once...bad tomatoes even...my faith in them has deteriorated immensely and so has my trust and belief(also a word connected to religion)




I find this very interesting....
There are those who could substitute "GOD" for "FDA" in your above post, and yet Christians still say they should have faith and trust.

People can say that God has let them down more than once, or the church has let them down more than once, so therefore they have little or no faith in any of it.





Yankee Moved South said:


> If not for the current "know everyting now " world we live in , thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people would be waiting on Hale Bopp or worshiping David Koresh. Religion is a wonderful thing for some people and blind faith is much harder for others to grasp.
> 
> The charisma of the preacher has far to great an influence on its followers. If you choose to believe in a god. Regardless of which, it is a personal choice that nobody should question. So long as its a faith that drives morals and respect to others.
> 
> ...




Welcome!!


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

Yankee Moved South said:


> If not for the current "know everyting now " world we live in , thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people would be waiting on Hale Bopp or worshiping David Koresh. Religion is a wonderful thing for some people and blind faith is much harder for others to grasp.
> 
> The charisma of the preacher has far to great an influence on its followers. If you choose to believe in a god. Regardless of which, it is a personal choice that nobody should question. So long as its a faith that drives morals and respect to others.
> 
> ...





Welcome .
Not a bad post.
For a yankee.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> I find this very interesting....
> There are those who could substitute "GOD" for "FDA" in your above post, and yet Christians still say they should have faith and trust.
> 
> People can say that God has let them down more than once, or the church has let them down more than once, so therefore they have little or no faith in any of it.
> ...



Yes, I know, you're right.

But my faith isn't based on whether God let's me down or not. We don't always get what we want, I believe God knows what we need though.

I was quite angry with God when my brother od'd...think about that statement. God gives us free will and warns us of danger, it's up to us to listen.

My mother and father were good Christians, they both died of lung cancer, from smoking....the body is a temple of the Holy Spirit.

My granddaughter was sexually assaulted, not a good thing. Could've been much worse. She has been quite careless growing up due to her mental immaturity and slow learning process. I believe she went thru what she went thru to protect her from something else worse.

I do have a habit of looking for the good in the bad..though.

I never understood why God let my first husband die at such a young age, I was angry for over 20 years and ran far away from God. Why did God let that happen to me with a small child, I was innocent, never drank before that and had gone to church. Why God why?
Going back a few years, my first husband had always been a cheater, I knew I shouldn't have married him, having free will, I did, even with all the signs I was given not to.

Second husband same thing, except it was drugs not women. Why didn't God protect me from him, He tried, I didn't listen.

So I don't know about everyone else, and I do know that terrible things happen to people. But in my mind, I'm chosing God or satan and I chose God.
If you have other choices then good for you on that, but I don't.

Love ya though and I know what you're talking about, been there.
Annie


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## mtnwoman (Jun 21, 2009)

Yankee Moved South said:


> If not for the current "know everyting now " world we live in , thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people would be waiting on Hale Bopp or worshiping David Koresh. Religion is a wonderful thing for some people and blind faith is much harder for others to grasp.
> 
> The charisma of the preacher has far to great an influence on its followers. If you choose to believe in a god. Regardless of which, it is a personal choice that nobody should question. So long as its a faith that drives morals and respect to others.
> 
> ...



I don't think you will regret it...I hope not.

Nice post and welcome.

You're right, people should respect other people's belief without demeaning them, that's all most of us want.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

Yankee Moved South said:


> If not for the current "know everyting now " world we live in , thousands perhaps hundreds of thousands of people would be waiting on Hale Bopp or worshiping David Koresh. Religion is a wonderful thing for some people and blind faith is much harder for others to grasp.
> 
> The charisma of the preacher has far to great an influence on its followers. If you choose to believe in a god. Regardless of which, it is a personal choice that nobody should question. So long as its a faith that drives morals and respect to others.
> 
> ...



Thanks for posting.
I agree with you.
Some won't.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Welcome!
> 
> This is what happens in discussion and debate.  People speak of their beliefs, some ask questions, and some will disagree with interpretations and issues.
> Nothing gets personal, unless someone lets it get personal.
> ...



Spiritually, you are as blind as a bat.  Your last statement proves it.  You'll never learn anything here because you aren't allowing yourself to be open.  
And another correction. ... It always gets personal when someone redicules my faith in God.
It obviously doesn't get personal with you because none of this means anything to you.


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## earl (Jun 21, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Spiritually, you are as blind as a bat.  Your last statement proves it.  You'll never learn anything here because you aren't allowing yourself to be open.
> And another correction. ... It always gets personal when someone redicules my faith in God.
> It obviously doesn't get personal with you because none of this means anything to you.





So blindly following Koresh would have been a good thing ? I think spiritually you are being naive . Their spiritual leader taught and preached from the bible . It may not have lined up with what you believe ,but with all the different religions ,bibles , interpretation of the scriptures,etc. there is not one person that can prove that they are right and the one and only. If you are honest ,you will admit that only your personal beliefs make your faith in God real . There are literally millions who can prove a different  belief using the same methods as you. How can you possibly accuse some one else of not learning because they don't allow themselves to be open when you boldly claim the same close mindedness for you beliefs?
Your post reeks of arrogance.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 21, 2009)

earl said:


> So blindly following Koresh would have been a good thing ? I think spiritually you are being naive . Their spiritual leader taught and preached from the bible . It may not have lined up with what you believe ,but with all the different religions ,bibles , interpretation of the scriptures,etc. there is not one person that can prove that they are right and the one and only. If you are honest ,you will admit that only your personal beliefs make your faith in God real . There are literally millions who can prove a different  belief using the same methods as you. How can you possibly accuse some one else of not learning because they don't allow themselves to be open when you boldly claim the same close mindedness for you beliefs?
> Your post reeks of arrogance.



Earl, my statement had to do with one sentence that another poster wrote.
My comments weren't posted to you so you are the arrogant one.

David Koresh is an idiot.  He wasn't a Christian.  Don't compare him to a born again believer in Jesus.

As for the fact that millions of other people can prove a different belief using my methods.  What do you care??  Why would you waste my time with junk like that.

Again, and remember this, you have no business questioning my belief system.  It does not affect you, unless you'd like to learn about my Lord and Savior.


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## WTM45 (Jun 21, 2009)

Hey Ronnie T...
Hope you had a good Father's Day today.
Have a cup of coffee.  You need it.

Get ready.  The questioning will continue.  It is not limited in scope to Christianity either.


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## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Earl, my statement had to do with one sentence that another poster wrote.
> My comments weren't posted to you so you are the arrogant one.
> 
> David Koresh is an idiot.  He wasn't a Christian.  Don't compare him to a born again believer in Jesus.
> ...



You evidently don't understand the PM process for private thoughts directed to one individual.
Yes ,he was an idiot ,that is what my post indicted. If he says he is christian ,that is between him and God ,not him and Ronnie. So ,yes ,I can make the comparison. That was another   point I was making . With all the self interpretation being done within christianity , any one can and does claim to be one , and can't be definitively proved wrong.
Why do I care  ? many reasons ,none of which I am required to explain. 
You make it my business when you preach to nonbelievers.  I don't think a disclaimer is going to work. If you don't want me to learn [and debate] your personal belief ,don't tell it in a public forum. 
You may want to review the ''debate and discussion'' definition again. How's that for arrogance ?


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## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2009)

If he says he's a Christian but then takes up arms against the government, has sex with underaged children, has more than one wife, his Christianity isn't just between him and God.  He proves himself a liar.  He proves himself not to be a true Christian.  That's why the Bible is so important in the process of living as a child of God.  It isn't only about what my faith tells me, it's about God's message in His Word.  As recorded in the Bible.  If my faith takes me someplace other than the teachings of God's Word, my faith is in error.  It isn't actually faith.  It's phoney.  Real faith will always align itself with God's word.
My faith cannot come from inside my mind.  It comes from God's word and God's planting that Word in my heart.  
One of the problems in this spiritual forum when it comes to the issue of "Debating" is that there's very little to debate in Christianity.  
It isn't a matter of winning the debate.  It's a matter of turning my life over to God.
It isn't a matter of thinking that I have all the answers and you don't.  It's a matter of turning my life over to God.
The David Koreshs of the world haven't turned their lives over to God, they reinvented God to suit them.
The place for a Christian in this world is always at the bottom of the pyramid of life.  A Christian life is to be a life of humility.  A life that has been given to others.
A Christian is a studier and reader of God's word.
A Christian is a lover.
A Christian is to love his/her enemy.  Feed their enemy.  Give their clothes to their enemy.
There isn't much there to debate.  Especially for people who seem to have nothing but distain for us.
God Bless you.
I got to go to work.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

I guess then that we can assume that we can use
Madalyn Murray O'Hare as an example of what we think atheists are like? She was a mean old woman....not because of the prayer things, she was just mean and hateful.

David Koresh and Madalyn Murray O'Hare are of the same spirit and it ain't Christianity.....that should be pretty obvious and it's an ignorant comparison and example.

Why do I never hear anyone saying, Well Billy Graham is a Christian and folks trust him.   It's always someone like David Koresh that we get compared to.  That tells us something about the intent of the poster.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 22, 2009)

earl said:


> So blindly following Koresh would have been a good thing ?



Yeah, he's a good example of a Christian...brilliant comparison. 

Blindly following Billy Graham has been proven over and over to be a bad thing???


----------



## christianhunter (Jun 22, 2009)

THE LORD GOD is THE KING Of The Universe.When an unbeliever,say's HE doesn't exist.They are showing dishonor to our FATHER,who believe.We reveer HIM as our FATHER,as much,no more than our natural Father.HE is our Hope,our Savior,and our Rock of belief in Eternal life.An unbeliever is not going to see this,nor understand it.That is the reason we are quick to defend,even to the point of argument.They do not realize what they are doing when they dishonor HIM,The Believers do.THE LORD is patient and Long suffering,we are not.Yet HE has protected us from even this."Blessed is he,who is persecuted for MY NAMESAKE."It has been argued on another thread about the earth being flat,and faith with discovery.They(the unbeliever)say prove there is a HEAVEN.GOD is in the Third Heaven,as was prophesied thousands of years ago.We are able to see the 1st and 2nd Heaven with our naked eye.Science now claims to be able to see the end,of all galaxies and universes.Well in my way of thinking,if they can see past the 1st and 2nd,they can see there is something beyond.No they will never create a telescope,that would be able to see the Third Heaven.These scientist,had they left it alone,would have been credited with a marvelous GOD Given discovery.At the end some theorized,"We may be in a cube,floating around in a mass of Brilliant Light."Cube or not,I know WHO,not what is the BRILLIANT LIGHT.THE LIGHT Of THE World,THE FATHER Of LIGHTS,JESUS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD!


----------



## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> If he says he's a Christian but then takes up arms against the government, has sex with underaged children, has more than one wife, his Christianity isn't just between him and God.  He proves himself a liar.  He proves himself not to be a true Christian.  That's why the Bible is so important in the process of living as a child of God.  It isn't only about what my faith tells me, it's about God's message in His Word.  As recorded in the Bible.  If my faith takes me someplace other than the teachings of God's Word, my faith is in error.  It isn't actually faith.  It's phoney.  Real faith will always align itself with God's word.
> My faith cannot come from inside my mind.  It comes from God's word and God's planting that Word in my heart.
> One of the problems in this spiritual forum when it comes to the issue of "Debating" is that there's very little to debate in Christianity.
> It isn't a matter of winning the debate.  It's a matter of turning my life over to God.
> ...




 Another case of self interpretation. If there is little to debate, why the christian against christian ''wars'' on here. Why not christian vs other religions and atheists ? 
If  I truly held you in disdain ,I would simply tell you you were wrong, wish you a good day ,and not respond to your posts.
I will still wish you a good day though. Enjoy your day and stay out of the heat .


----------



## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> I guess then that we can assume that we can use
> Madalyn Murray O'Hare as an example of what we think atheists are like? She was a mean old woman....not because of the prayer things, she was just mean and hateful.
> 
> David Koresh and Madalyn Murray O'Hare are of the same spirit and it ain't Christianity.....that should be pretty obvious and it's an ignorant comparison and example.
> ...






YMS  made a comment on Koresch and below is your response to his post.


[I don't think you will regret it...I hope not.

Nice post and welcome.

You're right, people should respect other people's belief without demeaning them, that's all most of us want. ]Quote by MW]



 Did you change your mind or are you just offended that Koresch claimed to be a christian ? 
BTW was that statement about O'Hare meant to be demeaning ?
Should we compare your testimony to Billy ? Would that tall us something about the poster ?
I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I do however like logic and consistency .


----------



## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Yeah, he's a good example of a Christian...brilliant comparison.
> 
> Blindly following Billy Graham has been proven over and over to be a bad thing???






 If you say so ,I will have faith in what you say .


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2009)

The problem with Earl is that he isn't looking for answers.  He isn't even looking for debate.  
You all know what he's doing.


----------



## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The problem with Earl is that he isn't looking for answers.  He isn't even looking for debate.
> You all know what he's doing.





 Are there two people using your name ? The reason I ask is that on DB's thread you agreed with me,whole heartedly it seemed, and here you ''call me out''. I don;t get it Ronnie. Either there is two of you or I am your bestest bud when my posts agree with you and the most evil troll when I don't agree with you.
Perhaps it's the heat today but I feel like most of today was spent in the twilight zone.


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 22, 2009)

Even though it is really off topic, when was Koresh convicted of pedhopilia?  Do you own arms for protection?  
Do you believe everything the .gov has said about Koresh to be true?

Watch out.  Some of what is being used as the "fruits" to rule out his "Chritsianity" may be fabricated or outright false.  Could a .gov be capable of that?  Hmmmmmm....

RT, I so feel the love you describe in post #111 overflowing through in your post #106.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 22, 2009)

earl said:


> Are there two people using your name ? The reason I ask is that on DB's thread you agreed with me,whole heartedly it seemed, and here you ''call me out''. I don;t get it Ronnie. Either there is two of you or I am your bestest bud when my posts agree with you and the most evil troll when I don't agree with you.
> Perhaps it's the heat today but I feel like most of today was spent in the twilight zone.



Nope there's not two of me.
I just thought your point in the other thread was a valid remark from someone who's putting the church under a microscope.


----------



## earl (Jun 22, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Even though it is really off topic, when was Koresh convicted of pedhopilia?  Do you own arms for protection?
> Do you believe everything the .gov has said about Koresh to be true?
> 
> Watch out.  Some of what is being used as the "fruits" to rule out his "Chritsianity" may be fabricated or outright false.  Could a .gov be capable of that?  Hmmmmmm....
> ...





 You may want to ask MW about Koresh. Her post suggests she knows his and O'Hare 's . stories to the point that she knows that they aren't christian.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> So blindly following Koresh would have been a good thing ? I think spiritually you are being naive . Their spiritual leader taught and preached from the bible . It may not have lined up with what you believe ,but with all the different religions ,bibles , interpretation of the scriptures,etc. there is not one person that can prove that they are right and the one and only. If you are honest ,you will admit that only your personal beliefs make your faith in God real . There are literally millions who can prove a different  belief using the same methods as you. How can you possibly accuse some one else of not learning because they don't allow themselves to be open when you boldly claim the same close mindedness for you beliefs?
> Your post reeks of arrogance.



This is the Koresh post I was referring to when posting about Misery O'Hare.

So blindly following  Ms O'Hare would be a good thing, if you're an atheist, too?

Surely it wasn't that hard to figure out, was it?


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> Did you change your mind or are you just offended that Koresch claimed to be a christian ? *HUH?*
> BTW was that statement about O'Hare meant to be demeaning ? *Was your statement about Koresh meant to be demeaning? Of course it was. It's the same statement about O'Hare.*
> Should we compare your testimony to Billy ? Would that tall us something about the poster ? *HUH?*
> I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. I do however like logic and consistency .*Yeah I do, too.*


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 23, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Nope there's not two of me.



And earl wants to talk about logic.....LOL...two of you...LOL


----------



## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

MW ,
I an going to bail out on this one. You obviously are not making the connections and I surely don't want to ''dog'' you. Have a good one and stay out of the heat.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

What in the world is everyone bickering about?  Bottom line is:  If you don't accept Jesus Christ as YOUR Lord and Savior, you're going to the same place Koresh, Jim Jones, etc... are currently residing in.  Simple.


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> What in the world is everyone bickering about?  Bottom line is:  If you don't accept Jesus Christ as YOUR Lord and Savior, you're going to the same place Koresh, Jim Jones, etc... are currently residing in.  Simple.



Prove it.


----------



## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> What in the world is everyone bickering about?  Bottom line is:  If you don't accept Jesus Christ as YOUR Lord and Savior, you're going to the same place Koresh, Jim Jones, etc... are currently residing in.  Simple.





 I love the authoritative claim that they are in hades. Won't you be suprised to get there and find that they made a deathbed confession and have been sitting around with God shooting the breeze. 


A philosophical question for you... 
Are dead christians in heaven now ,or are they also waiting for the second coming? 
If they are waiting is this limbo?
If they are waiting ,are sinners waiting to go to hades or are they going as soon as they croak ?
I have seen both answers concerning christians ,that's the reason for my query. And you have surprised me once already today.


----------



## christianhunter (Jun 23, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> THE LORD GOD is THE KING Of The Universe.When an unbeliever,say's HE doesn't exist.They are showing dishonor to our FATHER,who believe.We reveer HIM as our FATHER,as much,no more than our natural Father.HE is our Hope,our Savior,and our Rock of belief in Eternal life.An unbeliever is not going to see this,nor understand it.That is the reason we are quick to defend,even to the point of argument.They do not realize what they are doing when they dishonor HIM,The Believers do.THE LORD is patient and Long suffering,we are not.Yet HE has protected us from even this."Blessed is he,who is persecuted for MY NAMESAKE."It has been argued on another thread about the earth being flat,and faith with discovery.They(the unbeliever)say prove there is a HEAVEN.GOD is in the Third Heaven,as was prophesied thousands of years ago.We are able to see the 1st and 2nd Heaven with our naked eye.Science now claims to be able to see the end,of all galaxies and universes.Well in my way of thinking,if they can see past the 1st and 2nd,they can see there is something beyond.No they will never create a telescope,that would be able to see the Third Heaven.These scientist,had they left it alone,would have been credited with a marvelous GOD Given discovery.At the end some theorized,"We may be in a cube,floating around in a mass of Brilliant Light."Cube or not,I know WHO,not what is the BRILLIANT LIGHT.THE LIGHT Of THE World,THE FATHER Of LIGHTS,JESUS THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD!



Well I'am certainly glad I haven't been quoted on this one yet.I apologize,because I have misquoted,not about the cube(there is someone out there who believes that)Don't know his name and don't really care,but about the edge of the Universe.I got to thinking about it,only angels have access to THE THRONE of GOD!Until the Day Of Judgment,when all people will be Judged,Then THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.Man cannot see the edge of the universe,they know its there,almost universally now.They still can't see it,they speculate their almost there,because of the density of the light and objects.Man cannot see GOD and live,nor HIS THRONE.I jumped the gun on that one without thinking,and I apologize for that again.I asked THE LORD to forgive my ignorance also.The brilliant Lights(plural),not light.Are red and blue,and the scientists do not know what they are.They are now convinced,at least most in the study,that they may have been wrong about the "BIG Bang".So no I didn't delete the post above,I admit when I'm wrong.I'm glad THE LORD showed me my ignorance,rather than an unbeliever,because I left myself right out in the open.Another reason I didn't delete it is the top 2/3's is fact.


----------



## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Well I'am certainly glad I haven't been quoted on this one yet.I apologize,because I have misquoted,not about the cube(there is someone out there who believes that)Don't know his name and don't really care,but about the edge of the Universe.I got to thinking about it,only angels have access to THE THRONE of GOD!Until the Day Of Judgment,when all people will be Judged,Then THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.Man cannot see the edge of the universe,they know its there,almost universally now.They still can't see it,they speculate their almost there,because of the density of the light and objects.Man cannot see GOD and live,nor HIS THRONE.I jumped the gun on that one without thinking,and I apologize for that again.I asked THE LORD to forgive my ignorance also.The brilliant Lights(plural),not light.Are red and blue,and the scientists do not know what they are.They are now convinced,at least most in the study,that they may have been wrong about the "BIG Bang".So no I didn't delete the post above,I admit when I'm wrong.I'm glad THE LORD showed me my ignorance,rather than an unbeliever,because I left myself right out in the open.Another reason I didn't delete it is the top 2/3's is fact.





 It is great to see folks not only double checking their facts ,but having the courage to correct their mistakes with out some one ,even an unbeliever, call them out on it. 
Well done sir , well done !


----------



## christianhunter (Jun 23, 2009)

Thanks earl,when a Christian makes a mistake and does not correct it,even though they know they were wrong.They cause others to stumble,believers and unbelievers alike.I didn't want that on me,THE HOLY SPIRIT showed me I was wrong this morning.I studied the site as I was going by memory on the other post.My memory was not correct.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Prove it.



Don't have to.  The burden of proof is on you.  I KNOW where I'm going.  You, on the other hand, are hoping that I'm wrong.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> I love the authoritative claim that they are in hades. Won't you be suprised to get there and find that they made a deathbed confession and have been sitting around with God shooting the breeze.  It would be a pleasant surprise indeed.
> 
> 
> A philosophical question for you...
> ...



Now remember, these are my thoughts.  These things are not doctrinal differences and not relevant to salvation, we're just trying to picture what it is or will be like.

I really didn't think "anything" could surprise YOU


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Don't have to.  The burden of proof is on you.  I KNOW where I'm going.  You, on the other hand, are hoping that I'm wrong.




Those who make a claim hold the burden of proof.
It's that simple.


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 23, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Well I'am certainly glad I haven't been quoted on this one yet.I apologize,because I have misquoted,not about the cube(there is someone out there who believes that)Don't know his name and don't really care,but about the edge of the Universe.I got to thinking about it,only angels have access to THE THRONE of GOD!Until the Day Of Judgment,when all people will be Judged,Then THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT.Man cannot see the edge of the universe,they know its there,almost universally now.They still can't see it,they speculate their almost there,because of the density of the light and objects.Man cannot see GOD and live,nor HIS THRONE.I jumped the gun on that one without thinking,and I apologize for that again.I asked THE LORD to forgive my ignorance also.The brilliant Lights(plural),not light.Are red and blue,and the scientists do not know what they are.They are now convinced,at least most in the study,that they may have been wrong about the "BIG Bang".So no I didn't delete the post above,I admit when I'm wrong.I'm glad THE LORD showed me my ignorance,rather than an unbeliever,because I left myself right out in the open.Another reason I didn't delete it is the top 2/3's is fact.



Do you mean physically?

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Those who make a claim hold the burden of proof.
> It's that simple.



But you don't accept my proof...remember?


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> But you don't accept my proof...remember?




You have not presented any.
Believe what you wish.  It's all good.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You have not presented any.
> Believe what you wish.  It's all good.



The Bible!!


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 23, 2009)

Why not the Quran?

Just funnin' around!
Have a good evening!


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Why not the Quran?
> 
> Just funnin' around!
> Have a good evening!



I know.  You have a good evening too.

btw, Quran is not inspired word of God.


----------



## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

I really didn't think "anything" could surprise YOU 


 Like ole Gomer Pyle use to say.... SURPRISE    SURPRISE
LOL
 Thanks for the comments .It is interesting what others think.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 23, 2009)

earl said:


> I really didn't think "anything" could surprise YOU
> 
> 
> Like ole Gomer Pyle use to say.... SURPRISE    SURPRISE
> ...



You're welcome.  I too find interesting what others think.  I think we're on opposite ends of the spectrum though.  You wonder how people believe in God and I wonder how people don't.

Have a great evening.


----------



## earl (Jun 23, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You're welcome.  I too find interesting what others think.  I think we're on opposite ends of the spectrum though.  You wonder how people believe in God and I wonder how people don't.
> 
> Have a great evening.





Check my sig line . You may be right.


----------



## christianhunter (Jun 24, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> Do you mean physically?
> 
> Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.



Yes sir I meant physically for now with Angels.We have access to THE HOLY OF HOLIES now spiritually,and access to THE THRONE OF GRACE.Through Prayer and supplication,and Mercy.As long as we are believers,or unbelievers accepting the LORD,through the process of Salvation.


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 24, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Those who make a claim hold the burden of proof.It's that simple.



So what are you claiming?


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 24, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Yes sir I meant physically for now with Angels.We have access to THE HOLY OF HOLIES now spiritually,and access to THE THRONE OF GRACE.Through Prayer and supplication,and Mercy.As long as we are believers,or unbelievers accepting the LORD,through the process of Salvation.



Just wanted to clarify. Good stuff!
Thanks


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> So what are you claiming?




Nothing supernatural.


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 24, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Nothing supernatural.


So...........what do you believe, anything?


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> So...........what do you believe, anything?




The power of a Taylor Made r7 driver,
the action of a Titleist ProV1,
the feel of Cleveland 588 gunmetal wedges,
the love and dedication of a good dog,
the accuracy inherent in Steyr Mannlicher rifles,
the bombastic drumming of Neil Peart,
the voice of Annie Lennox,
the dependability of Toyota,
the tap of a brook trout sipping down a dry nymph fly.

The list could go on for days......


----------



## heavymetalhunter (Jun 24, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You don't want a "spiritual" forum.  You want a Christian King James Version forum.


THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!




WTM45 said:


> Why can differences in beliefs, systems, and ideals not be tolerated here?


because most who post here dont understand  that this is a "debate" forum. their imaginary friends dont let them debate ANYTHING.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 24, 2009)

The problem is that this is a spiritual forum and atheist are not spiritual.  If you don't believe in God the Creator, you can't be very good at answering or asking spiritual questions; and you certainly cannot debate the issue.


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The problem is that this is a spiritual forum and atheist are not spiritual.  If you don't believe in God the Creator, you can't be very good at answering or asking spiritual questions; and you certainly cannot debate the issue.




WRONG!

Only those who believe in the God of Abraham are spiritual?  HA!

There were homo sapiens thinking about where they came from, where they are going and why they are here WELL BEFORE the Torah.  Fact.


You are missing a big section of HUMANITY there.


----------



## christianhunter (Jun 24, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> WRONG!
> 
> Only those who believe in the God of Abraham are spiritual?  HA!
> 
> ...



WRONG!!!
Adam and Eve walked and talked with GOD.So did their descendents,until the sin.Then with that sin there was a drifting away from GOD.That drifting away carries over to this very day.Ruins and archeology,prove that man started his existance exactly where the BIBLE describes.FACT!

You totally missed humanitys origin!


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> WRONG!!!
> Adam and Eve walked and talked with GOD.So did their descendents,until the sin.Then with that sin there was a drifting away from GOD.That drifting away carries over to this very day.Ruins and archeology,prove that man started his existance exactly where the BIBLE describes.FACT!
> 
> You totally missed humanitys origin!





You can not "drift away" from a deity that is omnipresent, omnicient and omnipotent.  Can't have it both ways.

The God of Abraham did not "reveal" himself until Abraham.  Moses wrote the books.  It is clearly the legend.

It's all part of the creation story, which shares many common traits with myths, legends and pagan beliefs.
It's all shared parables.
Why believe any of it?  It's the guesswork of an earlier generation.  And there were more than a few people before them.


----------



## earl (Jun 24, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The power of a Taylor Made r7 driver,
> the action of a Titleist ProV1,
> the feel of Cleveland 588 gunmetal wedges,
> the love and dedication of a good dog,
> ...






That is some good ''stuff'' right there.
May I add ...The sounds of a newborn babe.


----------



## earl (Jun 24, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The problem is that this is a spiritual forum and atheist are not spiritual.  If you don't believe in God the Creator, you can't be very good at answering or asking spiritual questions; and you certainly cannot debate the issue.





 Ronnie ,not to be a smart aleck, but did you read the title of this thread ?


----------



## christianhunter (Jun 24, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You can not "drift away" from a deity that is omnipresent, omnicient and omnipotent.  Can't have it both ways.
> 
> The God of Abraham did not "reveal" himself until Abraham.  Moses wrote the books.  It is clearly the legend.
> 
> ...



You can drift away from GOD.Look in the mirror WTM,and you will see an example.


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 24, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> You can drift away from GOD.Look in the mirror WTM,and you will see an example.




If GOD wants me, I am powerless to resist.  Right?

Come on, CH.  We can stay above the table here.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 24, 2009)

Isn't it amazing.
The unspiritual are teaching spiritual matter.
You gotta love um.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 24, 2009)

Spiritual:

1spir·i·tu·al 
Function:adjective 
Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French & Late Latin; Anglo-French espirital, spiritual, from Late Latin spiritualis, from Latin, of breathing, of wind, from spiritus

1: of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit : incorporeal <spiritual needs>
2 a: of or relating to sacred matters <spiritual songs> b: ecclesiastical rather than lay or temporal <spiritual authority> <lords spiritual>
3: concerned with religious values
4: related or joined in spirit <our spiritual home> <his spiritual heir>
5 a: of or relating to supernatural beings or phenomena b: of, relating to, or involving spiritualism : spiritualistic
â€” spir·i·tu·al·ly adverb 
â€” spir·i·tu·al·ness noun


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 25, 2009)

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the *Spirit* does not accept the things that come from the *Spirit* of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ephesians 5:19
Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and *spiritua*l songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord

1 Peter 2:2
Like newborn babies, crave pure *spiritual* milk, so that by it you may grow up in your salvation,

1 Thes 5:18-19
18give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. 
*19Do not put out the Spirit's fire*; 20do not treat prophecies with contempt.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Those who make a claim hold the burden of proof.
> It's that simple.



Does that go for those who make a claim that there is no god, hold the burden of proof? 
It ain't a one way street, ya know?


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> If GOD wants me, I am powerless to resist.  Right?
> 
> Come on, CH.  We can stay above the table here.



Oh no, you have the free will to resist, I'm pretty sure you know enough to be accountable for your choices.

But God does want you, you just have the choice to accept or not.

If you ask Him to show you His power, or to prove it to you, now He will do that. He knocks but you have to let Him in, at least to check it out. If you don't open the door, then you won't at least have the chance to know Him.

It's not like you can't go back if you don't like what He offers you. People act like they are gonna be trapped up and can't get back where they were.... ask me how I know.


----------



## mtnwoman (Jun 25, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> because most who post here dont understand  that this is a "debate" forum. their imaginary friends dont let them debate ANYTHING.



Really? So what you do is debate? and the rest of us don't?....alrighty then.  I don't have any imaginary friends and neither do you.


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> The power of a Taylor Made r7 driver,
> the action of a Titleist ProV1,
> the feel of Cleveland 588 gunmetal wedges,
> the love and dedication of a good dog,
> ...


----------



## heavymetalhunter (Jun 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> If you don't believe in God the Creator, you can't be very good at answering or asking spiritual questions; and you certainly cannot debate the issue.



once again, you fail to realize that its spiritual discussion and debate forum, not christian support forum.

if you were truly capable of enjoying a good debate, then i would think you would welcome as many points of view as possible. after all, discussing multiple points of view is of course the whole point of a debate.

i dont see how you could possibly DEBATE a topic where everyone believes the same thing, then you would only be agreeing.


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The problem is that this is a spiritual forum and atheist are not spiritual.  If you don't believe in God the Creator, you can't be very good at answering or asking spiritual questions; and you certainly cannot debate the issue.



Home Run!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 25, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Does that go for those who make a claim that there is no god, hold the burden of proof? It ain't a one way street, ya know?


My point exactly!!! I'm fairly certain it would be harder to prove He does not exsist, than He does! A big bang on its best day couldn't do what God did by just speaking.


----------



## Ronnie T (Jun 25, 2009)

heavymetalhunter said:


> once again, you fail to realize that its spiritual discussion and debate forum, not christian support forum.
> 
> if you were truly capable of enjoying a good debate, then i would think you would welcome as many points of view as possible. after all, discussing multiple points of view is of course the whole point of a debate.
> 
> i dont see how you could possibly DEBATE a topic where everyone believes the same thing, then you would only be agreeing.



It would be pretty lame for me to get involved in debate issues of using a sewing machine to make a dress.  My wife wouldn't  waste her time listening to me.
If you don't believe in "the spiritual" you can hardly debate spiritual issues.  
You can toss a monkey wrench into other people's discussions, but that's about it.
Or,,,,,, you can seek to learn about God.


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> WTM45 said:
> 
> 
> > The power of a Taylor Made r7 driver,
> ...


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You can not "drift away" from a deity that is omnipresent, omnicient and omnipotent.  Can't have it both ways.
> 
> WRONG WTM.  The drifting away here is spiritual.  And yes...man did, God warned Adam if they ate from "that" tree, they  would surely die.  He was speaking of a spiritual death.  People come to the Lord all the time, and unfortunately "drift away".....sad.
> 
> ...



Yes...it is all part of the creation story.  Better than all that greek mythology and especially better than that evolution or big bang or whatever is out there today, junk.  

I believe it ALLLLLLL.  No guesswork.  Bible can not be proven wrong.  Many have and still try, but more and more discoveries are being made to prove it all true.


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## wholenotem (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> wholenotem said:
> 
> 
> > Now, now wholenotem...we can't say he doesn't have anything.  He does have a fine driver, good irons and an acknowledgement of one of the best drummers ever to play, oh yea and he fly fishes too?  I'd say he has alot.  However, nothing on that list will matter when he's 6ft under.  So basically, his treasures are things of this world.
> ...


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> donjon25 said:
> 
> 
> > So......... you think if they had taylor's in heaven he'd reconsider?
> ...


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> However, nothing on that list will matter when he's 6ft under.



And he knows that fact all too well.
And accepts it is being all we know that is for sure.

So, he lives life fully, treating his family and neighbors well and works hard to act so that the need for forgiveness from others for errors is not necessary.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Possibly   Maybe if he was offered a golden new R9?



Nah.  I hit it at a fitting day, and the r7 still out performs it by a longshot.


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> donjon25 said:
> 
> 
> > Nah.  I hit it at a fitting day, and the r7 still out performs it by a longshot.
> ...


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The problem is that this is a spiritual forum and atheist are not spiritual.  If you don't believe in God the Creator, you can't be very good at answering or asking spiritual questions; and you certainly cannot debate the issue.




So anyone, of any faith, of any creed, of any belief, of any religious belief system who does not follow the God of Abraham is un-spiritual?

Exclusivism stinks.

There are folks out there who can define the complete historical path of your current Bible, know much of it by memory, teach interpretations of it, can debate interpretations of it and literally know it inside and out.
They do not have some "ghost" inside that gives them this ability.  They are high level students of religious systems, and some are quiet laymen working in other career fields.

To say that only the "enlightened" can discuss a book is a fallacy.
It is quite fine for people to choose it as a guide for their lives.  It can and does provide such.  But to say no one other than a select few have "spirituality" is pure bunk.
It reflects a desire to be "above others" and exclusive to the knowledge of a deity.
Kinda like a desire to be the teacher's pet.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> Does that go for those who make a claim that there is no god, hold the burden of proof?
> It ain't a one way street, ya know?




They do just that. 
They hold out two empty hands.  There's their proof.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> It would be pretty lame for me to get involved in debate issues of using a sewing machine to make a dress.  My wife wouldn't  waste her time listening to me.
> If you don't believe in "the spiritual" you can hardly debate spiritual issues.
> You can toss a monkey wrench into other people's discussions, but that's about it.
> Or,,,,,, you can seek to learn about God.




WRONG.

Exclusivism.
Tell me other religious belief systems are not full of spiritual people.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> I do like the r7.  I think the adjustability of the r9 is cool.  I'm a sasquatch guy myself.




That adjustability, I feel, will get the average player into trouble quickly!
Nothing beats a club that has been fitted and spec'ed for a specific person.  I don't believe for one minute an off the shelf adjustable even measures up to that.

I can't warm to the Nike clubs, but that SQ is one big cantaloupe on a rope!
I still prefer smaller sweetspots and workability!


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> So anyone, of any faith, of any creed, of any belief, of any religious belief system who does not follow the God of Abraham is un-spiritual?
> 
> Sorry Ronnie, but I'm with WTM on this one.  I've known many non-christians that were very spiritual - even satanists.  However, that being said - it's the wrong spirit.
> 
> ...



No one is being above others (I know you were talking to someone else).  But, if I may.  Paul wrote extensively about things of/in the flesh and things of/in the spirit in Romans chapter 8.  Our spirit is willing and desires God, however the flesh fights tooth and nail - and too often wins!  If only God would allow you to see the spirit world for just one second...I think you'd go running to an alter.  Anyone would, for that matter.  So you see, no "high ground, or teacher's pet" stuff...just a Spiritually minded person vs a carnally minded person...that all.  

I hope that all made sense.  My mind is going 90 to nothing.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> No one is being above others (I know you were talking to someone else).  But, if I may.  Paul wrote extensively about things of/in the flesh and things of/in the spirit in Romans chapter 8.  Our spirit is willing and desires God, however the flesh fights tooth and nail - and too often wins!  If only God would allow you to see the spirit world for just one second...I think you'd go running to an alter.  Anyone would, for that matter.  So you see, no "high ground, or teacher's pet" stuff...just a Spiritually minded person vs a carnally minded person...that all.
> 
> I hope that all made sense.  My mind is going 90 to nothing.



Realizing that those who believe in the Bible only use the Bible as their sole basis for proof, I find it is nigh impossible to discuss spirituality outside of the Christian belief system with them.
It's most difficult at best.

But spiritaulity exists, and it is not purely God vs. Satan.  That's the Christian system.  There are others.
They get questioned as well.


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> donjon25 said:
> 
> 
> > That adjustability, I feel, will get the average player into trouble quickly!
> ...


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

We're just multi-tasking!
Enjoy my little word play on the huge drivers of late!

Check your use of the quote feature, donjon25.  It's putting my words/your words in the wrong places!


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Realizing that those who believe in the Bible only use the Bible as their sole basis for proof, I find it is nigh impossible to discuss spirituality outside of the Christian belief system with them.
> It's most difficult at best.
> 
> But spiritaulity exists, and it is not purely God vs. Satan.  That's the Christian system.  There are others.
> They get questioned as well.



You're absolutely right, spirituality does exist.  Butttttt, it is strictly God vs. satan.  Muslim, budhaism, hinduism, satanism, masonry, etc... all NOT of God.  Yes, spirituality is very, very real.  I speak from very real life experiences.  So please believe me, I've seen it!!  But you've got to understand, any spirit not of God, is of satan.  

Does that mean that all these people that don't have God are murderers, rapist, thieves, cheats, etc...?  NO.  What about all those people that do good?  You ask.  Simply put:  "If Jesus is not Lord of your life, you're going to h3ll".  Good, bad, or ugly.  Doesn't matter.  ONLY ONE way to heaven = Jesus Christ.


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> We're just multi-tasking!
> Enjoy my little word play on the huge drivers of late!
> 
> Check your use of the quote feature, donjon25.  It's putting my words/your words in the wrong places!



Quote feature looks ok from here.  I don't see any my words/your words mix-ups   I don't know how to use that multi-quote thing though.


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> You're absolutely right, spirituality does exist.  Butttttt, it is strictly God vs. satan.  Muslim, budhaism, hinduism, satanism, masonry, etc... all NOT of God.  Yes, spirituality is very, very real.  I speak from very real life experiences.  So please believe me, I've seen it!!  But you've got to understand, any spirit not of God, is of satan.
> 
> Does that mean that all these people that don't have God are murderers, rapist, thieves, cheats, etc...?  NO.  What about all those people that do good?  You ask.  Simply put:  "If Jesus is not Lord of your life, you're going to h3ll".  Good, bad, or ugly.  Doesn't matter.  ONLY ONE way to heaven = Jesus Christ.




Understood.
I spent over 35 years of my life in that environment and its teachings.  Mostly forced, mostly to appease family, all totally exclusive.
I completed undergraduate and graduate coursework in the very same teachings.  Add to that some other world religion studies and world cultural history.

I can no longer see exclusivism as being a correct way.  Each religious belief system pushes and promotes that.
The "my way is right, your's is wrong" makes me greatly doubt ANY of it as being much more than cultural differences.
All too often that is the basis for some pretty bad results in human interaction and relations around this globe.

I do not even say "I am right, hear me roar!"  What I do say is "I don't know, and neither does anybody else."


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## WTM45 (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Quote feature looks ok from here.  I don't see any my words/your words mix-ups   I don't know how to use that multi-quote thing though.




It's showing my words as yours inside the quotation.
It has to do with the code in brackets on the actual quotation inside the message window.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 25, 2009)

I'll go back to one of my original scriptures.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

A man who cannot accept the Spirit of God cannot possibly fair well in a debate about the Spirit of God or anything pertaining to it.  There is a measure of discernment that will always be missing.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 25, 2009)

ronnie t said:


> i'll go back to one of my original scriptures.
> 
> 1 corinthians 2:14
> the man without the spirit does not accept the things that come from the spirit of god, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
> ...


 
*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Understood.
> I spent over 35 years of my life in that environment and its teachings.  Mostly forced, mostly to appease family, all totally exclusive.
> I completed undergraduate and graduate coursework in the very same teachings.  Add to that some other world religion studies and world cultural history.
> 
> ...



But it is exclusivism   Not everyone is right.  Just because one believes in whatever, doesn't make him saved.  Ex; A Christian and a muslim CAN NOT both be right.  I CAN NOT say to another belief:  "Rock on brother, just keep believing in Ali-babba and you too will be saved".  No, no, no.  It's only through Jesus Christ!!!!!  Anything else is a lie.

You seem to be a very sensible, intelligent, peace loving/promoting person.   Which is all good.  But....my friend, that WILL NOT get you into heaven.  Loving one another is an attribute we MUST all pursue.

I too want peace and harmony, but foremost we must do what Jesus said for us to do:

Mark 12:29-31:  "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 

And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these."

So....for now:  "I am right, hear me roar"!!


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## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'll go back to one of my original scriptures.
> 
> 1 Corinthians 2:14
> The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
> ...


----------



## donjon25 (Jun 25, 2009)

Well folks.  Gotta go.  Be back on Monday.  Everyone have a nice weekend.  

WTM45:  No matter what you may say or think, we Christians love you...but most importantly, Jesus loves you.  When he gave his life on the cross, he had *"YOU"* on his mind.


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## earl (Jun 25, 2009)

donjon25 said:


> Well folks.  Gotta go.  Be back on Monday.  Everyone have a nice weekend.
> 
> WTM45:  No matter what you may say or think, we Christians love you...but most importantly, Jesus loves you.  When he gave his life on the cross, he had *"YOU"* on his mind.





 I don't think Ronnie does . If so he has a strange way of showing it .
 What's up with you and the Illuminati ? Or is that your pet name for those that don;t believe as you do ?


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## wholenotem (Jun 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Understood.
> I spent over 35 years of my life in that environment and its teachings.  Mostly forced, mostly to appease family, all totally exclusive.
> I completed undergraduate and graduate coursework in the very same teachings.  Add to that some other world religion studies and world cultural history.
> 
> ...



Would it be correct to say, whom ever is writing the checks has the final say? So.....who are we to question God and His design of eternity and the qualifiers of our final abode. I think He's made it very obvious and clear as to His Power and His abilities,His Mercy and Love; even His expectations of His creation mankind.  Yet we still walk around with our chests poked out brains oozing out of ears, confident in ourselves, that we know and have a better way than the one who created us; my my, aren't we the smart ones.


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## WTM45 (Jun 26, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I think He's made it very obvious and clear as to His Power and His abilities,His Mercy and Love; even His expectations of His creation mankind.



I'll respond to your direct question.

Yes, you think that, based on the Bible, but many question the very existance of any deity.  So, there is no checkbook.

It's not that hard to understand.

Without proof and evidence of the God of Abraham, many will not take Pascal's Wager and "believe" just to "prevent" or "insure" something that is supposed to happen after physical death. 
They don't even believe in Ra, and that very same sun is in the sky overhead daily.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 26, 2009)

WTM45,  I think that few Christians would deny that the only thing that has complicated the church are it's members.  
Through the centuries, we've turned our opinions into doctrine.
We've made my point of view your sin.
We've, in many ways, lost the unity that Christ talks so much about.
Many Christians today are still completely satisfied with the confused state of the church.  As though the confusion gives them more reason to stand by their preconceived notions.
I grew up in the church.  But at 19 I left the church for many years.  I finally found the desire to learn of God and Jesus for myself from the Bible.
I don't listen to what the Spirit supposedly told someone else.  I go to the Bible.
I don't care what some great Christian said 400 years ago.  I go to the Bible.
I don't care what's popular today in the church.  I go to the Bible.

Many have turned their lives over to 4 or 5 verses in the Bible.  But there are thousands of verses in God's word.  It all has to be absorbed.  Not a verse from Mark, then two from Revelation, then another one from Ephesians.

Having said all that, for the sake of this forum, we seem to talk most about the ways us Christians differ.  But we don't actually differ as much as it seems in our discussions.
I'm always thrilled to meet anyone who believes in Jesus Christ.


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## earl (Jun 26, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> WTM45,  I think that few Christians would deny that the only thing that has complicated the church are it's members.
> Through the centuries, we've turned our opinions into doctrine.
> We've made my point of view your sin.
> We've, in many ways, lost the unity that Christ talks so much about.
> ...






I believe this is one of the most  honest christian posts on christian differences that  I have seen in a long , long time.
Kudos


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## wholenotem (Jun 27, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> I'll respond to your direct question.
> 
> Yes, you think that, based on the Bible, but many question the very existance of any deity.  So, there is no checkbook.
> It's not that hard to understand.
> ...



You can say all day long there's no such a thing as an "Motorized Vehicle" you can build shrines and temples to promote your ideals of the absense of those four wheeled beasts, but you just step on out onto 285 here in "Hot Lanta Ga." oh... say about 3:30 P.M. and with all the faith you can muster up step out into those deadly lanes, and keep believing there's none out there. I think real "quick like" you'll change your mind, If you were to survive your rude awakening. Gods' done everything possible to to bring mankind back to Himself Yet most men still play the "Fool" May God help our hardened hearts.


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## Ronnie T (Jun 27, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> You can say all day long there's no such a thing as an "Motorized Vehicle" you can build shrines and temples to promote your ideals of the absense of those four wheeled beasts, but you just step on out onto 285 here in "Hot Lanta Ga." oh... say about 3:30 P.M. and with all the faith you can muster up step out into those deadly lanes, and keep believing there's none out there. I think real "quick like" you'll change your mind, If you were to survive your rude awakening. Gods' done everything possible to to bring mankind back to Himself Yet most men still play the "Fool" May God help our hardened hearts.



You are so right.  No matter how much a Christian might bring reproach upon Christ's church and no matter how much someone might disbelieve, the Bible and it's history of God and His Son is still true.


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## mtnwoman (Jun 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> WTM45,  I think that few Christians would deny that the only thing that has complicated the church are it's members.
> Through the centuries, we've turned our opinions into doctrine.
> We've made my point of view your sin.
> We've, in many ways, lost the unity that Christ talks so much about.
> ...




Wonderful post Ronnie!!


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## earl (Jun 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> You are so right.  No matter how much a Christian might bring reproach upon Christ's church and no matter how much someone might disbelieve, the Bible and it's history of God and His Son is still true.






Which version ??


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## christianhunter (Jun 28, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You can not "drift away" from a deity that is omnipresent, omnicient and omnipotent.  Can't have it both ways.
> 
> The God of Abraham did not "reveal" himself until Abraham.  Moses wrote the books.  It is clearly the legend.
> 
> ...



Wrong again,
GOD revealed HIMSELF to Moses also,by HIS GLORY as HE PASSED.NO man,has ever saw the Glory of GOD,other than THE SON OF GOD,and lived,but Moses!
Also it is not a legend,it is a documented fact of Moses' books.Clearly it is not feesable for an atheist to get on a Spiritual Forum as Ronnie has repeatedly pointed out.


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## christianhunter (Jun 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> WTM45,  I think that few Christians would deny that the only thing that has complicated the church are it's members.
> Through the centuries, we've turned our opinions into doctrine.
> We've made my point of view your sin.
> We've, in many ways, lost the unity that Christ talks so much about.
> ...



AMEN Brother,Great Post.


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## wholenotem (Jun 29, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> WTM45,  I think that few Christians would deny that the only thing that has complicated the church are it's members.
> Through the centuries, we've turned our opinions into doctrine.
> We've made my point of view your sin.
> We've, in many ways, lost the unity that Christ talks so much about.
> ...



What a great statement, if every Christian could wrap their little brains around that, we might could have more of an influence on this lost and dieing world!


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## donjon25 (Jun 29, 2009)

earl said:


> I don't think Ronnie does . If so he has a strange way of showing it .
> What's up with you and the Illuminati ? Or is that your pet name for those that don;t believe as you do ?



Sorry took so long to respond...been on extended weekend camping trip.

Ronnie does love you guys.  Would he be wasting his time on here if he didn't?  He could just say: "to h3ll with those guys".  

Do you know anything about the illuminati?  I only said that to WTM because he spoke of the stuff he has been involved in over the years.  The "international satanists" illuminati are certainly pulling the strings in these last days.  One world government, new world order, call it whatever...it's on its way.


----------



## crackerdave (Jun 29, 2009)

Ronnie - and others - are right when they say far too much energy is wasted arguing with folks whose only agenda IS argument.We are to contend for the faith,but not besmirch it.


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 29, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> Wrong again,
> GOD revealed HIMSELF to Moses also,by HIS GLORY as HE PASSED.NO man,has ever saw the Glory of GOD,other than THE SON OF GOD,and lived,but Moses!
> Also it is not a legend,it is a documented fact of Moses' books.Clearly it is not feesable for an atheist to get on a Spiritual Forum as Ronnie has repeatedly pointed out.



Got your Biblical history and stories correct?
Abraham was before Moses, accodring to the Bible timeline.  Abraham talked to God directly, and God talked to him.  Told him to sacrifice his son, even.
I'd call that revelation.

It's plenty feasable for Atheists, Agnostics and followers of many various religious belief systems to openly discuss what they believe on an internet forum.


----------



## wholenotem (Jun 29, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Got your Biblical history and stories correct?
> Abraham was before Moses, accodring to the Bible timeline.  Abraham talked to God directly, and God talked to him.  Told him to sacrifice his son, even.
> I'd call that revelation.
> 
> It's plenty feasable for Atheists, Agnostics and followers of many various religious belief systems to openly discuss what they believe on an internet forum.



I'm confused........Just exactly what beliefs are you refering to?hmmm I serve the god of nothing! is that what you're telling us?


----------



## earl (Jun 29, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I'm confused........Just exactly what beliefs are you refering to?hmmm I serve the god of nothing! is that what you're telling us?





Did you miss the thread on agnosticism ?
Did you miss ''many various religious belief systems'' ?
Starting to sound like a broken record.


----------



## WTM45 (Jun 29, 2009)

earl said:


> Starting to sound like a broken record.




Just a record stuck on the same song, but working fine.


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## earl (Jun 29, 2009)

I had Polly Wolly Doodle  All The Day stuck in my head for a week. Drove me crazy.


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## christianhunter (Jun 29, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Got your Biblical history and stories correct?
> Abraham was before Moses, accodring to the Bible timeline.  Abraham talked to God directly, and God talked to him.  Told him to sacrifice his son, even.
> I'd call that revelation.
> 
> It's plenty feasable for Atheists, Agnostics and followers of many various religious belief systems to openly discuss what they believe on an internet forum.



And Adam was before Abraham.Abraham was not the only one to see GOD in The Old Testament.Everyone who saw JESUS,saw GOD.No mix up,no mistake.


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## WTM45 (Jun 29, 2009)

Pointless to continue..........


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## christianhunter (Jun 29, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Pointless to continue..........




You took the words right out of my mouth.


----------

