# Once saved, always saved



## Mrs. Bucky (Jan 31, 2006)

Growing up, I was taught that Christians could backslide and fall from grace and if they did not ask for repentance that they would die and go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.  The older I became, I studied God's word and prayed about it.  Now, I think if one is truely saved that they can not fall from grace and go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie.  I believe that if you are truely saved you will not find happiness in sin and God will bring you back to him.  His death on Calvary covers your past, present, and future sins. He will convict you of your wrong doing and bring you back to him.  I believe that a Christian is not happy living in sin.  Therefore, you want to live for him and long for his word, etc. 
Now that my children are getting to the age of questions, such as "What is "being saved"?  How do you go to heaven?  Does everyone go to heaven?"  I want to teach my children right.  What are your thoughts or supporting verses on this?


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## Randy (Jan 31, 2006)

Boy this is a tough one for me too.  I'll listen for a while before I make my comments although I think we have discussed this before.


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## ilikembig (Jan 31, 2006)

This is a really great one... I for one thank you Mrs Bucky for posting it...
< Now, I think if one is truely saved that they can not fall from grace and go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie. I believe that if you are truely saved you will not find happiness in sin and God will bring you back to him. His death on Calvary covers your past, present, and future sins>

I would like to start with, if by grace we mean: Divine love and protection bestowed freely on people.  The state of being protected or sanctified by the favor of God. 
An excellence or power granted by God, then that is so AWESOME in knowing. I dont really believe I have ever met anyone that has found happiness in sin, but what do you do when someone really whole heartedly is repenting but is weak, they just can not free themselves of the 'sin'?


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## Branchminnow (Jan 31, 2006)

If you have been saved then you cannot fall from grace, when the Lord saved my soul he saved once and for ever(he does things right the first time) and does not need to do it again.


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## Jody Hawk (Jan 31, 2006)

God knows only one perfect man ever walked this earth. Being a Christian doesn't make you perfect. I consider myself a "sinner" saved by God's grace.


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## Randy (Jan 31, 2006)

Here is what we discussed before


http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=1830&page=2


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Jan 31, 2006)

I'd hate to trust my soul to something I might loose. If we can fall from grace and be lost again what is the cut off? There must be one or a line for you to cross. If I lay out of church next sunday am I lost again or would I have to get drunk or would I have to beat my wife or would I have to kill someone. As Branch said God does it right the first time and when we fail him we are chastised for our sins.


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## Jody Hawk (Jan 31, 2006)

Oh yes, even if you can't be un-saved, you will stand before him and give account for what you've done.


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## Randy (Jan 31, 2006)

So if a mantruly gets saved as a young man but then much later in life falls on hard times,  maybe gets on drugs, and then for waht ever reason becomes resentful and decides to go out and shoot up the town killing several,  he is going to be in Heaven?

Or is your answer to that, he was never saved?


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## Jody Hawk (Jan 31, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> he is going to be in Heaven?



If he believed in Jesus Christ and was born again, I say yes but he will stand before God and give account for it. If y'all think we are only going to heaven by living a sinless life, then we are all in trouble.


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## Mrs. Bucky (Jan 31, 2006)

Not to long ago, I was out of God's will.  I was not regularly going to church and I was NOT happy.  For a while I blamed it on work, etc.  Until June, God really dealt with my heart and now I am back in church and LOVING it.  I truely believe that one can not lose his salvation.  Some people claim to be saved, but was there that change that took place.  I don't know about some of you, I can meet a person and tell if the fruits they bare is Godly fruit.  Our only mission here on Earth to win other souls to Christ.  We are his sheep and we are to live as examples for others to see Christ in us. A true Christian will not be happy living out of the will of God.


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## SBG (Jan 31, 2006)

I am thankful that I serve a Saviour who not only was able to get me into the lifeboat, he was able to keep me from falling back overboard before he got me to the shore.

1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


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## blindhog (Jan 31, 2006)

If you got saved, then got lost by "falling away", or "choosing to walk away", and landed in eternal torment

then......

What were you ever saved from ?

If we are to trust in Jesus, and belive we "control" our will by staying in His grace, then aren't we REALLY trusting in ourself to 'stay" saved?

Jesus said you must be spiritually re-born, once. NEVER does scripture even hint that one can become un-re-born.
Show me where if it does.

The written word teaches us that it is the power of God that saves us, not any power or act of ours alone.  Not even controlling our own will, we can't undo what God does, which is a miracle of the re-birth and cleansing of the SPIRIT, not the flesh.

Amen


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## one_shot_no_mor (Jan 31, 2006)




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## BRUNO (Jan 31, 2006)

Scripture states " we all fall short of the glory of god " . And  paul says " all things are permitted , but not all things are beneficial " . I was saved win I was 7 years old  and fell away into drugs sex and self endulgence , and beleive me that you will be punished severely but never lost again . you will come back to him because you know truth and you can't justify blaming the world for your problems .


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## Bones (Feb 1, 2006)

Once you are Born Again  you are a child of Gods.  I look at it like this when my son does something he should not do our fellowship is stained or broken  until he staightens it out, this is how it is when a Saved person sins.  They have broken their fellowship with God but just like Jason will be my son no matter what he does the child of Gods will always be one of his children.  You will be chastised for your sin but will always be one of his children.

Bones


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## Mrs. Bucky (Feb 1, 2006)

BRUNO said:
			
		

> Scripture states " we all fall short of the glory of god " . And  paul says " all things are permitted , but not all things are beneficial " . I was saved win I was 7 years old  and fell away into drugs sex and self endulgence , and beleive me that you will be punished severely but never lost again . you will come back to him because you know truth and you can't justify blaming the world for your problems .


I agree too. If you are saved and get out of the will of God, you will not be happy.


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## Keith48 (Feb 1, 2006)

My response in the above-referenced thread still stands! 



			
				Keith48 said:
			
		

> Luke 8:13 makes clear the fact that believers can lose their salvation. It says some "believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Revelation 22:19 says "If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life, and in the holy city." How can someone have a share in that city if they are not saved? Right here it says that it CAN be taken away.
> 
> There are numerous other passages taht suggest the same - John 15:6, 1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 12:14, Luke 14:16-24.
> 
> ...


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

*I won't say how I feel...*

What I feel is not relevant...even though I know in my heart that there is no possible way that anyone that has been super-naturally transformed by God almighty, could ever forfeit their salvation.

Feelings aside...Thus saith the Lord:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

I struggled years ago about this subject, since I was raised in a church that believed in the apostasy of the believer. Through much study and prayer, and the teaching of the Holy Spirit, I came to realize that God's ways are so much higher than ours(Thank you Lord). The scripture that I provided, is quite clear. I have underlined the word "all" in verse 28. 

If a born again child of God, could somehow become un-born again and lose their salvation, how could all things be working together for their good?

Notice verse 30, when the believer has been justified(saved), God instantly also sees him as glorified. In the eyes of God, who cannot lie and transcends all time, he already recognizes us that are born again, as possessing a glorified body.

That'll make a Baptist shout right there!


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## Mrs. Bucky (Feb 1, 2006)

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. 

So, does that mean we can not lose our salvation?  What about this
"If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life, and in the holy city." 
And if you deny him, Jesus says he will deny you before his father.  
I am unsure.  I guess I need to pray even more now and get into the good book to find out.


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## toddboucher (Feb 1, 2006)

If we would take more time and study the Blood covenant we would fully understand how safe we are, guilt would be removed away and we could just walk and be with him. and on the other hand if we are truly saved we will always want to walk as close to him as we can. knowing when we blow it, forgivness is right at our door. This will turn us into the image of his son. Rom 8:29


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## T-Bone (Feb 1, 2006)

This is a tough one and I think it is like most rhetorical questions in that you just have to let the Holy Spirit deal with you on an individual basis as to what is right or wrong for you.  Otherwise it could drive you crazy trying to figure it out.  I would hate to think that I could serve a loving, gracious, soverign God and make a simple mistake that He would punish me for an eternity for.  I think blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is as the Bible says an unforgivable sin with eternal consequences - but the others.


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## franklinm (Feb 1, 2006)

There is a sin unto death , which is spoken of in Lev . chapter 24 . but I do not think a borned again person living for God would ever even think of doing that .


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

I wont get in it yet, I will give some scriptures on it and you can decide, but I will let it roll a little longer before I post. I will go ahead tell you no, I dont believe in once saved always saved and I will use scripture to prove why I dont believe it.


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## brofoster (Feb 1, 2006)

Gentlemen,

     I am sorry but the once saved always saved philosphy does not bear consistent to what I just studied this weekend.  The "Once Saved, Always Saved, term is one of the newly termed cliches that has arisen in our convenient society.  Of course all Christians hate sin (when they are doing what is right), and that keeps us saved.  But the truth is that we all sin from time to time and repentance becomes NECESSARY.  Look at the following passage of scripture:

 Rev 2:5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.  

Here John writes to the Church established at Ephesus(Chritstians), about their need to repent of be removed.  Some might say that this language in figuratively written in Revelations; but when Jesus talks about removing something it only can go one place. (Note that he says they are FALLEN, not always saved).  

Of course this does not mean that we live sinless lives but as the scriptures say:
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 

From this scripture we can make several conclusions
1.  We sin
2.  If we confess our sins and mean it, and stop doing whater it is(thats what repenting is), God forgives us.
3.  Most importantly we must confess and ask forgiveness or we are simply not forgiven.  We have to pray.  

God can move mountains, but it takes prayer to move God!

Brofoster


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## brofoster (Feb 1, 2006)

Boy this is great and I love being saved!

I see a lot of posts and justifications but very little scripture.

"There is a way that seemeth right unto a man but the end thereof are the ways of death.  For as the heavens are high above the earth, so are God's ways above ours." 

"If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life, and in the holy city." 

Anyone means anyone period, including Christians.  I think Mrs. Bucky is searching the scriptures dilligently and has hit pay dirt.  When I read your post I could feel my spirtit stir.  I better stop before I end up crying at work and having to leave.  

PS: I am a big bad Marine but I love Jesus.  I am a soldier in his Army first.

Brofoster


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## ilikembig (Feb 1, 2006)

I hope it is not ingornace that may come to the mind of many, but can someone explain to me what this means exactly?


"If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life, and in the holy city." 

Thank you!


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 1, 2006)

Rev. 22:18-19 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."


From Matthew Henry's Commentary:
v. 18, 19. He that adds to the word of God draws down upon himself all the plagues written in this book; and he who takes any thing away from it cuts himself off from all the promises and privileges of it. This sanction is like a flaming sword, to guard the canon of the scripture from profane hands. Such a fence as this God set about the law (Deut. iv. 2), and the whole Old Testament (Mal. iv. 4), and now in the most solemn manner about the whole Bible, assuring us that it is a book of the most sacred nature, divine authority, and of the last importance, and therefore the peculiar care of the great God.

http://www.ccel.org/h/henry/mhc2/MHC66022.HTM


My thoughts:
I think it means that you should always treat the Bible as God's Holy Word. With respect and not leave anything out when you are conveying something to someone. For example; Jahovah Witness's believe that there is not a h ell. Although it clearly says there is one in the Bible. To me that is taken something out of the Bible.

DB BB


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

Please read 2nd Peter Capter 2, I think it pretty well settles it. Read the whole chapter.


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

Mrs. Bucky said:
			
		

> 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
> 
> 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> ...




What this tells you is that none of these can seperate you, but YOU can seperate yourself from him. Remember Job? The devil couldnt touch him unless God allowed it, but it was up to Job to stay faithful. Read 2nd Peter chapter 2.


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> What this tells you is that none of these can seperate you, but YOU can seperate yourself from him. Remember Job? The devil couldnt touch him unless God allowed it, but it was up to Job to stay faithful. Read 2nd Peter chapter 2.



What exactly can cause you to lose your salvation?


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> What exactly can cause you to lose your salvation?




The same thing that happened to Peter. As long as Peter has his eyes on the Lord, he walked on water, the minute he looked down, well you know the rest of the story.

God will not allow sin into heaven. You might commit a sin, you might fail, but get it under the blood and stop wallering in it. God will not turn you away for stumbling, but when you fall and refuse to get up or stay away from sin, he has no room for it.


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## blindhog (Feb 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> Please read 2nd Peter Capter 2, I think it pretty well settles it. Read the whole chapter.



If you do study it remember that there are those TRULY re-born and changed, and those who only appear as a fruit bearers, but never rooted and grounded in love.
And I can quote scripture to back everything I just said.

In 2Peter chap 2, you will notice the sow and the dog were never made a new creature, but remained the same creature.  NEVER SAVED to begin with.  (Gal6:15)

Escaping pollutions of the world is NOT escaping eternal torment.

If you git saved, then git lost....what wuz you ever saved from?


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> The same thing that happened to Peter. As long as Peter has his eyes on the Lord, he walked on water, the minute he looked down, well you know the rest of the story.
> 
> God will not allow sin into heaven. You might commit a sin, you might fail, but get it under the blood and stop wallering in it. God will not turn you away for stumbling, but when you fall and refuse to get up or stay away from sin, he has no room for it.



Chris, with all due respect and christian love...let me ask you this.

Are you suggesting that a born again believer can be saved and fall, and then be restored, only to fall again?


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> If you do study it remember that there are those TRULY re-born and changed, and those who only appear as a fruit bearers, but never rooted and grounded in love.
> And I can quote scripture to back everything I just said.
> 
> In 2Peter chap 2, you will notice the sow and the dog were never made a new creature, but remained the same creature.  NEVER SAVED to begin with.  (Gal6:15)
> ...




You will never escape eternal torment until he tells you to enter in thou good and faithful servant. Reread escaping the pollutions of the world and research other scripture it refers to, it does refer to salvation and knowledge of Christ.
The dog and sow returned to their ways. Some things in scripture are used to show you or give you an example. There is not one single scripture in the Bible that tells you, once you are saved, you are always saved, if its there, show it to me.


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Chris, with all due respect and christian love...let me ask you this.
> 
> Are you suggesting that a born again believer can be saved and fall, and then be restored, only to fall again?




God doesnt play patty cake with anyone. He is a just God. If you have a repented heart he will listen to you and forgive you, but you cant go wallering right back into the same thing. You have to make an effort to live right, just like I said, God knows the intent of your heart. A born again believer can most certainly fall, be restored and some will fall again. I have seen them fall and never return. I have seen them fall and come back. But never back and forth like you are suggesting. But let me assure you after you loose out, there is a scripture that says there remains no more sacrifice. If they are willing to take that chance and risk, they can, I wont.


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> A born again believer can most certainly fall, be restored and some will fall again. I have seen them fall and never return. I have seen them fall and come back. But never back and forth like you are suggesting. But let me assure you after you loose out, there is a scripture that says there remains no more sacrifice. If they are willing to take that chance and risk, they can, I wont.



Chris, please consider this passage from Hebrews:

Hebrews 6: 4-6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

I applaud you for your use of scripture. But we must consider the whole counsel of God. This scripture clearly teaches that IF you could fall from grace, that it is impossible to be restored.


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## Randy (Feb 1, 2006)

If that is what it means?


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Chris, please consider this passage from Hebrews:
> 
> Hebrews 4-6
> 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
> ...



What Chapter in Hebrews?


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## Spotlite (Feb 1, 2006)

OK, SBG, I was looking for a chapter. Let me get one thing clear. I am looking at three threads, I am assuming the main question was Once your saved are you always saved? I dont believe in once saved always save per say, as some use it in doing whatever they want to just like they lived before they got saved. I do believe people come to Christ as a couple have mentioned and really get saved, I mean to the point they dont want to live wrong anymore, and they never stagger. But people have gotten out and back in. I dont think God will continue to be mocked, but I dont think he is going to let you live as you please either.


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## redwards (Feb 1, 2006)

Mrs. Bucky,
I will only attempt to provide some insight in answer to your questions at the end of your post.


			
				Mrs. Bucky said:
			
		

> .....Now that my children are getting to the age of questions, such as "What is "being saved"? How do you go to heaven? Does everyone go to heaven?" I want to teach my children right. What are your thoughts or supporting verses on this?


 
Last year I posted a reply in the following thread:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=27249&highlight=icy

My post in that thread is quoted below:
I urge you (and anyone else) to read the entire quoted post. I noticed from your bio that you were born in 1977, so you were only about 5 years of age when this tragedy occurred. You may or may not be aware of it. I also urge you to follow the link to Kelly Moore's testimony. The link is down toward the end of the quoted post. I know this only directly addresses one of your three questions, but I think it gives insight into the other two also. You will also note that scripture is provided with each of the numbered thoughts in the post.

My prayer is that God will give you some tiny nugget of truth in this post that will assist you in the rearing of your children!




> A very good topic for discussion. PLEASE!! Read this post in its entirety.
> 
> As I was scrolling the topics of new posts this one caught my attention.
> 
> ...


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> What Chapter in Hebrews?



Sorry about that...it is chapter 6.


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

Randy said:
			
		

> If that is what it means?



 

It is what it is.


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## SBG (Feb 1, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> My prayer is that God will give you some tiny nugget of truth in this post that will assist you in the rearing of your children!



Thanks for sharing Ralph.


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## blindhog (Feb 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> You will never escape eternal torment until he tells you to enter in thou good and faithful servant. Reread escaping the pollutions of the world and research other scripture it refers to, it does refer to salvation and knowledge of Christ.
> The dog and sow returned to their ways. Some things in scripture are used to show you or give you an example. There is not one single scripture in the Bible that tells you, once you are saved, you are always saved, if its there, show it to me.




1John 5:13.."These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; THAT YE MAY KNOW THAT YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE..."

Know that ye HAVE...present tense, today, while still alive on earth.

Also: 1John 5;4.."For whatsoever is BORN of God overcometh the world:...verse 5..Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

Rev 3:5.."He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment;  AND I WILL NOT BLOT OUT HIS NAME OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels."

So....present tense today we can know Jesus will NOT blot our name out of the book of life.

ASSURANCE!

This is the right kind of repentant belief...1Peter 3:21


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## ilikembig (Feb 1, 2006)

*If I may...Lament terms please*

My question begins here...
1. Before one can be saved, there must be a need to be saved= the need to be saved is we are ALL born into SIN and we ARE all sinners. 
2. Before one can be saved, one must realize they need to be save. = one realized the need to be saved.
3. Before one can be saved, one must be willing to be saved = One was willing and was saved(accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior)
4. Before one can be saved, one must reach out to the saver = One bent down and went to the cross and asked for salvation.
5. When the above 5 steps have occurred, one can be and is saved (rescued) and receives extended/new life = One feels the transformation taking place and then ONE DAY!!!

falls short. feel conviction but has a hard time getting back to the cross.

Is it being stated that there is no way back. That the Lord has forsaken one and they are done?. this is where i have a hard time understanding the rationalization around once saved, always saved not being true. I have read many times in threads here where the scenario is used as such; I have a child that does wrong and i ask them not to do it again but they do; regardless of the 'sin' that is still my child, I may be hurt or upset but that is STILL my child.

Can someone please help me understand?


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## ilikembig (Feb 1, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> Mrs. Bucky,
> I will only attempt to provide some insight in answer to your questions at the end of your post.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 1, 2006)

For those that believe you can loose your Salvation:

Do you also believe that you have something to do with being saved?

Just curious...I think I know how some will answer....

Read Ephesians 2:8-9 (King James Version)
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  9. Not of works, lest any man should boast.


DB BB


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## redwards (Feb 1, 2006)

ilikembig said:
			
		

> My question begins here......
> ......
> 5. When the above 5 steps have occurred, one can be and is saved (rescued) and receives extended/new life = One feels the transformation taking place and then ONE DAY!!!
> 
> ...


 
I am certainly not saying that (statement in blue).
Let me try to give an explanation through this scripture and some questions that are relatively easy to answer.
Luke 17:11-19



> 11 And it came to pass, as He went to Jerusalem, that he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee.
> 
> 12 And as He entered into a certain village, there met Him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
> 13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
> ...


 
Leprosy was a disease that was looked upon as a disease brought on by sin, was it not?

How many lepers did Jesus cleanse?

How many returned to thank Jesus?

Does scripture say that the other nine became "uncleansed" because they did not return to thank Jesus?

Does scripture state that ANY of the ten had to be cleansed ever again?

I am no authority on scripture, only a sinner who has been saved because of God's Mercy (not giving me what I deserve) and His Grace (giving me a free gift that I can do nothing of myself to earn). I believe scripture teaches that once given, it is not taken back. If not then how can scripture state?


> John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have *eternal life*.


Saving Grace that is taken back would not be eternal would it?
Hope this helps in some way.
Ralph


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## redwards (Feb 1, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> For those that believe you can loose your Salvation:
> 
> Do you also believe that you have something to do with being saved?
> 
> ...


Amen, DB BB.....Right on, brother!


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## blindhog (Feb 2, 2006)

If you didn't EARN the gift, how can you "unearn" it?

Part of the gift is being made a new creature by the power of God, how do you "unmake" what God has made, are you more powerfull than God?


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## Spotlite (Feb 2, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Sorry about that...it is chapter 6.




No problem, found it later.

I want to clear up something, here is where I stand on "once saved always saved" and being restored if you fail God. Not going to get into responding to all post, this should clarify where I stand and what I believe. Also I want to thank all of you for staying level headed and discussing this like adults should and not name calling or bashing, it means alot. 

Here goes;

1. Once saved always saved?  NO, read Heb 10:26
2. Can you fall out and be restored?  YES, read 
     Galations 6:1, and James 5:19-20
3. The ref of Hebrews 6:4-6, back up and read vs 1,2 and 3     It tells you  that if you lay aside all foundations of doctrines and teachings of Christ in 1 and 2 then in vs 3, "And this will we do, if God permit" Now go on and read the rest and when you get to vs 9 and 10 you will see God is righteous.

4. If you can not fall away, why the message to the church in Rev:2 vs 5? He told the church to repent or their candlestick would be removed. Another scripture I just thought of but cant find in Rev, speaks about blotting out your name out of the Book of Life.

5. Sin, you dont have to kill, rob and things of that nature to sin, James 4:17. Think you dont need to repent daily and stay straight with the man? He did say strive for perfection. We are living in the grace period.

Bottom Line, you can backslide, you can be restored, being saved is not a free ticket to live the way you want, dis-obedience is spoken of in the Bible, unrepented sins, people walk away from God that has lived for him for years, where they saved? They said they were, they lived a holy life, yet they chose to leave Christ. They are out living it up, will they go to heaven because they once were saved? Dont think so unless they repent and return to Christ. You cant serve two masters and sin is of the devil. He also asked what does light have to do with darkness. I chose not to include 2 Peter 2 in this because some didnt think it applied, but the angels that sinned in vs 4, God didnt spare them for sin, regardless of how and why they sinned, he didnt spare them. That is where I stand, I dont think for one minute that I can live the way I used to, I dont think I go every day and not ask God to forgive me, Im not talking about keeping on doing the same thing over and over, God is no Yo-YO. Im talking about trying to live for him in everyway I know how, Im still in the flesh, dont know about the rest of you.


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## stumpshooter (Feb 2, 2006)

Rom.5
[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[3] And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
[4] And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
[5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
[6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
[7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
[13] (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
[14] Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
[15] But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[16] And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[17] For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[18] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
[19] For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[20] Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
[21] That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 2, 2006)

ChrisW,

Here is a senerio and you tell me what you think will happen to this person:

This Guy gets Saved, you see him change from someone that sinned and did not care to someone that lived to glorify God. This Guy sins(doesn't matter how he sins, sin is sin), and before he has a chance to ask God for forgiveness he dies. What do you think happens to his soul?

Just curious to know your thoughts on this....

DB BB


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## BRUNO (Feb 5, 2006)

Ok !  I am glad to see that we all read the BIBLE and are trying to adhere to the words of the lord . JESUS knew that we could trip up on words and decided to give us words and examples . According to JESUS we all will fall away . let me explain in that he tells us we are his sheep and when we stray he uses his staff to bring us back (ouch !) . We all fall into sin ; some come back right away and some dwell for some time . reguardless of one sin or a multitude it is still falling away . NOW IF YOU HAVE THE MINDSET THAT YOUR SAVED AND CAN DO AS YOU PLEASE AND YOULL REPENT AT THE LAST MOMENT THEN YOU PLAY THE RISK OF NOT HAVING TIME IN THAT LAST MOMENT . YOU WILL BE LUKE WARM AND HE WILL SPEW YOU FROM HIS MOUTH . correct ?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 5, 2006)

Looks like I've missed out on a good discussion...    Here's my belated take on this...

I believe that once a person is saved that they will remain saved as long as they desire to be saved.   I believe that someone can believe that Jesus is God's Son now, and that God raised Him from the dead, but that Satan can rob them of this over time if they allow.    When these people come to the place where they no longer believe that Jesus was God's Son, and counts His blood as an "unholy thing", then I believe that they are Hades-bound.    

We 'earn' out salvation by believing.    When we no longer believe, well, I think that is dangerous territory.

Bandy


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## blindhog (Feb 5, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Looks like I've missed out on a good discussion...    Here's my belated take on this...
> 
> I believe that once a person is saved that they will remain saved as long as they desire to be saved.   I believe that someone can believe that Jesus is God's Son now, and that God raised Him from the dead, but that Satan can rob them of this over time if they allow.    When these people come to the place where they no longer believe that Jesus was God's Son, and counts His blood as an "unholy thing", then I believe that they are Hades-bound.
> 
> ...




As for "earning out"   Ephesians tells us this:

2:8-9     For by GRACE are saved through FAITH; and that NOT of yourselves:  it is the GIFT of God, 

NOT OF WORKS,  lest any man should boast.

So.....if it is up to me to keep my "desire", then Jesus did nothing for me.  Therefore my "work" has saved me.
Opposite to plain scripture.


Satan can rob the chance from you, and you can be at the very threshold of true belief:

Luke 8:12....Those by the wayside are they that hear;  then cometh the devil, and taketh away thw word out of there hearts, LEST THEY SHOULD BELIVE AND BECOME SAVED.

So.....they know the Word, for it is in their hearts, they can quote scripture, and may even appear like good christians.

But have not come to the repentant belief it takes to be baptized by the Holy Spirit for the re-birth that saves.

1Peter 3:21...."The like figure whereunto even baptism does doth also NOW save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God),  by the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

By this verse we see that salvation is a NOW present tense occurance, not based on good works, but by the spiritual re-birth caused by the baptism of the Holy Spirit.  This baptism is in response to the saved one's repentant attitude, trusting and leaning on Jesus as the one who has done the "work", not having to depend on myself, a weak in the flesh being, desiring to keep on being saved.

Go with the peace of God.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 7, 2006)

Blind,

So, you believe that someone can be saved and not believe that Jesus was raised from the dead and that He is God's Son?    Or are you saying that it is okay to believe that Jesus was just an ordinary man, as long as it is after you believe, for a while, that He was resurrected?

Bandy


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## leroy (Feb 7, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> ChrisW,
> 
> Here is a senerio and you tell me what you think will happen to this person:
> 
> ...




I believe hes going to heaven. By somes beliefs on this thread hes going the other way. What about suicide to murder is a sin and they are taking there own life no way to repent. I believe in once saved always saved.


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## Mrs. Bucky (Feb 7, 2006)

My mind is made. I believe once saved, always saved.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 12, 2006)

Mrs. Bucky said:
			
		

> My mind is made. I believe once saved, always saved.




Are you sure about that, Mrs. B?  

Here's what Renee had posted:


			
				ilikembig said:
			
		

> 1. Before one can be saved, there must be a need to be saved= the need to be saved is we are ALL born into SIN and we ARE all sinners.
> 2. Before one can be saved, one must realize they need to be save. = one realized the need to be saved.
> 3. Before one can be saved, one must be willing to be saved = One was willing and was saved(accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior)
> 4. Before one can be saved, one must reach out to the saver = One bent down and went to the cross and asked for salvation.
> 5. When the above 5 steps have occurred, one can be and is saved (rescued) and receives extended/new life




I completed each and every one of the steps listed above... I consciously accepted Jesus as my lord and savior at the age of 9 at vacation bible school, and lived in that belief with ALL my heart until the age of 32, when I then began an intense 2-year personal study which ended with the conclusion that I no longer believed Jesus was God.

So... since I was saved before, but fell away,  if I died tomorrow would you say I was still saved?

Just curious... 

Hugs!
Kerri


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 12, 2006)

Dixie...

IMHO....  You're fuel for H@!!'s Fire!   No offense!    

 

Bandy


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## Win270Brown (Feb 12, 2006)

This may have already been brought up, I haven't read all 7 pages. Before I post the scripture I'm gonna say that I've always believed that once saved always saved. However, in the past couple of weeks my boss and I were discussing this and a verse was brought to our attention. I haven't finished my research on this verse so I am not saying that I completely accept one way or the other. Ok, here's the verse.
Revelation 3:5.

Here is some discussion on the topic:
Rev. 3:5 also speaks of being blotted out of the book of life, meaning here the list of the saved. Some say that such a blotting out is possible and implied. But that a saved person could thus lose his salvation is felt by many to contradict those passages which teach the security of the believer in Christ. Consequently, these interpreters have taken one of the following approaches: (1) Rev. 3:5 does not explicitly say that anyone’s name will be blotted out; (2) this register originally has everyone’s name on it, but when a person finally rejects Christ his name is blotted out; (3) the book of life in Rev. 3:5 is the register of profession from which names will be erased, whereas the Lamb’s book of life (Rev. 13:8; 17:8; 20:12,15; 21:27 referring to the Lamb’s book of life though not specifically so called in every verse) contains only the names of genuine believers from which no names can be erased.

Let's all remember to pray and seek God's heart on this through His Word and communication with Him. And also not forget, there are a lot of hurting people out there that need to hear the good news of Jesus Christ!


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## TurkeyProof (Feb 12, 2006)

*What........*

*Return unto me and I shall return unto you.*


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 12, 2006)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Dixie...
> 
> IMHO....  You're fuel for H@!!'s Fire!   No offense!
> 
> ...




No offense taken, Bandy!! 

Believe it or not, I have had some tell me that it doesn't matter, I am still 'saved' because I don't 'really' reject Jesus.  In their opinion, once you accept Jesus, you can never really reject him.  They give the example of Peter and how he denied knowing Jesus three times, but was still given the 'keys' to heaven.

Then of course I have had those that tell me, 'well, you were never really a Christian to begin with', which always makes me wonder if they think they are God to know the intent of my heart and what I truly believed... but I guess some folks just think they are good like that 

It is always curious to me that people say how God is so loving and has only good in Him, but yet then say how quick he can be to send folks to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie for backsliding or 'falling away', or bad timing if they didn't ask for forgiveness that split second before the truck hit them.  If that's true, then I must be better than God is because as a parent, I would never treat my own child that way.   I would certainly hope that the love God has for us is so far above the way we are able to love, but to hear some say it, apparently not.  

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Timbo (Feb 12, 2006)

Here is my 2 cents........


Become a believer in Christ,ask him for forgiveness of your sins and ask your pastor to set up a time to be baptized.

Once this is done take your sword in hand and put your armor on and never let yourself become involved in non-christian life styles.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 12, 2006)

*Is Salvation Eternal??*

The Apostle Paul states in Ephesians 4:14: "*We must no longer be children, tossed to and fro and blown about by every wind of doctrine*."

The Christian must guard themselves from error and destruction by* growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 3:18)*

The sure way of growing in grace and knowledge is to feast on his Word, his Word being both the Old and the New Testament.  To reject the New Testament is to reject the very plan that God conceived and brought to fruition in a marvelous way as so clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

1 John 5:12 clearly states: "He that hath the Son hath life, he that hath not the Son of God hath not life".

Anti-Christian forces are active in the world today, teaching all kinds of strange doctrines.  As Paul clearly states above, the Christion must resist being tossed to and fro in our journey of life.  Our adversary, the devil, walketh around, seek whom he may devour.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 12, 2006)

Amen Mr. Vernon one does not need to look far to see anti - christian forces at work in this day and time.


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## Timbo (Feb 12, 2006)

SO true vern.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 12, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> Anti-Christian forces are active in the world today, teaching all kinds of strange doctrines.  [/FONT]



Interesting observation....   In the days of Jesus, the teachings of his disciples (ie: New Testament) were also 'strange doctrines' and had no similarity to anything Jews knew to have been true for hundreds of years prior to his arrival on earth.  Which is why they rejected him and Christianity.


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## dawglover73 (Feb 12, 2006)

but what do you do when someone really whole heartedly is repenting but is weak, they just can not free themselves of the 'sin'?[/QUOTE]

Good thread, and Ilikembig, this is the exact question I had running through my mind as I read it.  I am a Christian, but also know that I have sinned before, and will again.  Not planning on it, just being realistic.  I think that is part of the deal... we are human.  BUT, going into a sin with the preconcieved notion that simply making right with Jesus is going to make it a "wash," that is what I have issue with.  If I mess up, then make right... I'd like to think I am ok with the Lord.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 12, 2006)

In Psalms, David prayed for help from "presumptious sins", the ones like you say... we go into with eyes wide open.

If David (who had a heart after God) had to pray this prayer, then so much more we !!!


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 12, 2006)

*Once Saved, Always Saved*



			
				Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> "*In the days of Jesus, the teachings of his disciples (ie: New Testament) were also 'strange doctrines' and had no similarity to anything Jews knew to have been true for hundreds of years prior to his arrival on earth.* .


 
True Kerri.  But should those "strange doctrines" have been so strange when the foretelling of the Christ was preached from genesis and throughout the Old Testament.  Not only should the decendants of Abraham have expected the promised one, but they had the full disclosure of his lineage (thru David's line), his birth, his rejection, his suffering, and his final proof that he was the Son of God by his Resurrection from the dead.

The Old Testament contains over 300 individual prophecies foretelling every detail of his coming to establish his Kingdom.  One has only to read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah to know that Christ was indeed the Messiah, the promised one of the Old Testament.  And yet it did prove to them to be "strange doctrine".

Kerri, I did note that I was not granted the token of a Hug.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 12, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> True Kerri.  But should those "strange doctrines" have been so strange when the foretelling of the Christ was preached from genesis and throughout the Old Testament.  Not only should the decendants of Abraham have expected the promised one, but they had the full disclosure of his lineage (thru David's line), his birth, his rejection, his suffering, and his final proof that he was the Son of God by his Resurrection from the dead.
> 
> The Old Testament contains over 300 individual prophecies foretelling every detail of his coming to establish his Kingdom.  One has only to read the 53rd chapter of Isaiah to know that Christ was indeed the Messiah, the promised one of the Old Testament.  And yet it did prove to them to be "strange doctrine".
> 
> Kerri, I did note that I was not granted the token of a Hug.



Mr. V... I did not mean to overlook giving you a BIG *HUG*!!   I should not have hit 'post reply' when I did... I should have waited to make sure I finished the post before I sent it.  Not to get  , but I have had a doe in distressed pre-labor all weekend and yesterday had to give her a shot to induce her labor.  As I was finishing that post, my daughter came in to tell me that the doe was in the barn and was starting to push, so I hurried to post what I had  written (by the way we now have another set of triplets, one boy and 2 girls  ).  Next time I'll just wait until I can devote my attention again before I hit 'send'!! 

Now, concerning the prophecies of the Messiah in the "Old Testament", well... knowing where this will go, I will just have to agree that we will disagree    IMHO, from my personal reading of the scriptures, indepth studies and studying with Jews, there are not 300+ prophecies about Jesus in the Old Testament, nor are there that many about the Messiah in general.  Isaiah 53 (and all of the Servant Songs in Isaiah) are about Israel and specifically name Israel as the Suffering Servant on at least 6 specific occassions.  But that's for another thread   I don't want to steer this one too much further off the topic as it's already headed in that direction and don't want to hijack Mrs. B's thread. Sorry Mrs. B! 

Yes, the Jews are still waiting for the Messiah as prophesied in the bible because the prophecies have not been fulfilled yet.

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Spotlite (Feb 13, 2006)

My final observation of this, not using any qoutes because there are alot of good post here. I have heard it said God is not an Indian giver, true but you can lay a gift down and walk away from it. To many scriptures to say you can turn back to your wicked ways. What about the ten virgins, a parrable of course but an example Jesus used for us to keep our lamps full of the Holy Ghost, the oil representing the Spirit of God here. What about the talents, the one that didnt use it, got it took away from him and cast into outer darkness. What about the unfruitful vine being cut off. What about Paul in 1st Cor. He was saying basically "I have preached and after done all this, if I dont keep myself under subjection, least I become a cast away" I think it is in John 8, he who sins is the servant of sin. People are still in the flesh, look at David, the apple of Gods eye, not because he sinned, because he continually asked God for forgiveness and asked God to search his heart, we are going to mess up and that does not mean go do what you want and ask for forgiveness about it. It means do everything you know to do to live right and if you do slip you have an advocate to go to the Father for you. I cant find one scripture in the Bible that tells me I can get saved and do what ever I want and still go to heaven. There are plenty that tell me to abstain from sin, turn from it, and if sin is of the devil and you cant have two masters, your either serving one or the other, further more God asked what does light have to do with darkness?  God wont condem you to he## for slipping, but he wont overlook it if you dont ask for forgiveness.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 13, 2006)

Thanks Kerri for the belated hug.  We love you for your steadfastness.  Only wish you had been as much so when you were  a Christian.  Your witness would have been a very effective one for you demonstrate great consistency.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 13, 2006)

The point of Once Saved Always Saved is that, if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin, you will Live for God, and be a witness for Him. People get stuck on, "Oh, I am Saved so I can go out and sin and I will still be Saved", My thought on this is if you go and do sin purposely, then you are not Truely Saved in the first place. To be Truely Saved you will turn from sin and never return. If God give you the Grace of Faith, he will not take it away. But just simlply going with the new fad of "easy believeism" oh just say this prayer and you will be saved, is in my opinion a false doctorine.

DB BB


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## Spotlite (Feb 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> The point of Once Saved Always Saved is that, if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin, you will Live for God, and be a witness for Him. People get stuck on, "Oh, I am Saved so I can go out and sin and I will still be Saved", My thought on this is if you go and do sin purposely, then you are not Truely Saved in the first place. To be Truely Saved you will turn from sin and never return. If God give you the Grace of Faith, he will not take it away. But just simlply going with the new fad of "easy believeism" oh just say this prayer and you will be saved, is in my opinion a false doctorine.
> 
> DB BB



BB I wished I could have summed it all up in those words, good post, your right on target with that.


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## PWalls (Feb 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> The point of Once Saved Always Saved is that, if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin, you will Live for God, and be a witness for Him. People get stuck on, "Oh, I am Saved so I can go out and sin and I will still be Saved", My thought on this is if you go and do sin purposely, then you are not Truely Saved in the first place. To be Truely Saved you will turn from sin and never return. If God give you the Grace of Faith, he will not take it away. But just simlply going with the new fad of "easy believeism" oh just say this prayer and you will be saved, is in my opinion a false doctorine.
> 
> DB BB




I don't know of churches that preach say a trendy little prayer and your saved. I firmly believe in once saved always saved. However, I do believe that you have to have had a true repentence confession and change of heart/lifestyle to evidence that salvation. 

An example, if you were hooked on Playboy prior to your salvation and then you continue to keep those magazines or look at them, then I would question the salvation.

I am a saved Christian whose name is in the Book of Life. I believe that with all my heart. I realize what my sin cost God and Jesus. However, I also realize that nothing I can do can jeopardize my eternal salvation because of what Jesus did for me. I can stumble in sin and affect my wordly relationship with Christ, but my stumbling will not keep me from Heaven.


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## ilikembig (Feb 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> The point of Once Saved Always Saved is that, if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin, you will Live for God, and be a witness for Him. People get stuck on, "Oh, I am Saved so I can go out and sin and I will still be Saved", My thought on this is if you go and do sin purposely, then you are not Truely Saved in the first place. To be Truely Saved you will turn from sin and never return. If God give you the Grace of Faith, he will not take it away. But just simlply going with the new fad of "easy believeism" oh just say this prayer and you will be saved, is in my opinion a false doctorine.
> 
> DB BB



if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin

How can this be true, we are ALL sinners even after we are saved? I don’t know one single person in the life I have lived thus far other than Jesus Christ that has not committed a sin. A little lie here, talked about someone there, and as far as God is concerned a SIN is a SIN is a SIN.  I know that I walk with Christ everyday yet still face MANY challenges, not because I want to be disobedient or think I can do what I want when I want but because I am a SINNER.  I have struggles just like everyone else.  I am saved, but not perfect!!!


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## Spotlite (Feb 13, 2006)

PWalls said:
			
		

> I don't know of churches that preach say a trendy little prayer and your saved. /QUOTE]
> 
> 
> I dont know if this pertains to all of them and I am thinking it does not. But there is one church here in town that is Church Of God and I went to it with my wife when we were just dating, after the preaching he asked that anyone wanting salvation come to the alter. A crowd went down and he said repeat after me, he said a prayer and told them they were saved and that was all there was to it. No repentance no nothing, just repeating after the preacher. I saw no salvation in that. Hope I am not stepping on anyones toes, like I said, it may be just the way this church operates and not the whole orginization.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> , *"if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin", *
> 
> "*To be Truely Saved you will turn from sin and never return*". DB BB


 
BB:  If I am reading you correctly, you seem to be advocating a position of sinless perfection.  If this assessment is correct, how would you deal with the following scripture where perhaps the greatest Christian of all time, the Apostle Paul, offered the following testimony as to his own bent to sinning.
*"For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I."  Romans 7:14–15

Paul here demonstrates the power of the flesh when he states, in effect, that what he clearly knows to do, she does not do.  And further, he states that those things which he hates, that is what he ends up doing. 

In another passage, he refers to himself as "the chiefest of sinners".

Question:  How do you account for the difference in what you believe and what Paul seemed to teach??
*​


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 13, 2006)

In my previous posts I have said there has been no perfect sinless person to walk this planet other than Jesus Christ.

I know we will sin, but it is when you purposely sin that is the problem. When you are Truely Saved you will not continue to live in Sin the way you were before you were Truely Saved. You will want to live for God. That is not saying that you will not sin. 

"For all have sinned" ever since the Fall of Adam & Eve.

I believe that once you are Truely Saved you will live for God, and you will not continue to live in the Sin you were in before you were Truely Saved. I am not saying that I will never sin, I know I will sin, but I try my best to prevent it. And when I do sin, I ask God to forgive me where I fail him.

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 13, 2006)

ilikembig said:
			
		

> if you are Truely Saved than you will not continue to live in Sin
> 
> How can this be true, we are ALL sinners even after we are saved? I don’t know one single person in the life I have lived thus far other than Jesus Christ that has not committed a sin. A little lie here, talked about someone there, and as far as God is concerned a SIN is a SIN is a SIN.  I know that I walk with Christ everyday yet still face MANY challenges, not because I want to be disobedient or think I can do what I want when I want but because I am a SINNER.  I have struggles just like everyone else.  I am saved, but not perfect!!!




Please read my previous post.....

DB BB


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 13, 2006)

BB:  Thanks for your explanation.  I agree fully with you.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 13, 2006)

BB, good post on all these thoughts...


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 13, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> People are still in the flesh, look at David, the apple of Gods eye, not because he sinned, because he continually asked God for forgiveness and asked God to search his heart, we are going to mess up and that does not mean go do what you want and ask for forgiveness about it. It means do everything you know to do to live right and if you do slip you have an advocate to go to the Father for you.




This is one thing that has always confused me... David didn't need an advocate to go to God for him when he asked for forgiveness... David went to God directly himself.  Why do you think there is a need for a go-between?

Hugs!
Kerri


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## ilikembig (Feb 13, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> Please read my previous post.....
> 
> DB BB



Thank you for the clarification.


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## Spotlite (Feb 13, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> This is one thing that has always confused me... David didn't need an advocate to go to God for him when he asked for forgiveness... David went to God directly himself.  Why do you think there is a need for a go-between?
> 
> Hugs!
> Kerri




Kerri, to make a long story short, the old test. you could make sacrificies for your sins and that only pushed them aside for a year. The new test Jesus was that supreme sacrifice, with both, you had to have blood and without blood there is no remission of sins, since Jesus was that sacrifice we must go through Jesus to have our sins cleansed and covered.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 13, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> Thanks Kerri for the belated hug.  We love you for your steadfastness.  Only wish you had been as much so when you were  a Christian.  Your witness would have been a very effective one for you demonstrate great consistency.



Thanks Mr.V, I'll take that as a compliment 

I did the best I could when I was a Christian. I would NEVER have thought I would decide one day that it was not the truth. But there were alot of inconsistencies between the Old Testament and the New Testament that did not make sense to me, and now they do. So it is not hard to be consistent when you have the material to work with.  I guess what I'm saying is, I did not have enough faith to continue to overlook all the things that did not make sense and to just accept them blindly.  I tried really, really hard, because it was devastating to me to think I might go to  pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie because I knew in my heart that I didn't believe in Jesus anymore.  I WANTED to still believe it, I tried REALLY hard to believe it, to make myself believe it again, but God would have known my heart anyway and known that I was not being truthful.  But I also know that HE knows how much I wanted it to be true and really did try.  That's why I am confident and consistent with my beliefs... because I KNOW that God knows my heart, and I know that He has seen what I have done to try and be right with Him.  You can't fool God.  He knows that my intent was to be true to Him, whatever that meant and whatever that took, and I have rested my soul on that knowledge.  I believe that God judges us each individually based on what He knows to be true about our soul, not what others see or think.  Thank GOD!!! 

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 13, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> Kerri, to make a long story short, the old test. you could make sacrificies for your sins and that only pushed them aside for a year. The new test Jesus was that supreme sacrifice, with both, you had to have blood and without blood there is no remission of sins, since Jesus was that sacrifice we must go through Jesus to have our sins cleansed and covered.




Hey Chris!
Where are you getting this information from? It is incorrect.  Where are you seeing that sacrifices only pushed sins aside for a year?

As far as the sacrifices go, what you stated is incorrect, you do NOT have to have blood to be forgiven of your sins. In fact, you do not have to have sacrifice at all.  I will be happy to provide scripture that supports that.  And when sacrifices were offered, they were ONLY accepted for sins that were committed NON-INTENTIONALLY.  There is NO sacrifice for intentional sin, there is only repentance.  Secondly, God never allowed vicarious atonement (never allowed someone to take the punishment of sin for another).  Thirdly, God has forbidden any human sacrifice, it is an abomination to him and was something that the pagans did. But again, this is getting off topic. I would be happy to open another thread to discuss sin sacrifice if you are interested in discussing it.  

Hugs!
Kerri


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## SBG (Feb 13, 2006)

Hebrews 9:22

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 13, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Hebrews 9:22
> 
> And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.




I'm sorry SBG, I should have been more clear!!
What I meant was, where did this idea come from? When the sacrificial system was in practice (ie; when the temple was standing and the Jews brought offerings to be sacrificed), this was not in the Law.  So where did that idea come from? Any supporting verses would of course have to come from the Old Testament... since that is where the Law was given.

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Spotlite (Feb 14, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hey Chris!
> Where are you getting this information from? It is incorrect.  Where are you seeing that sacrifices only pushed sins aside for a year?
> 
> As far as the sacrifices go, what you stated is incorrect, you do NOT have to have blood to be forgiven of your sins. In fact, you do not have to have sacrifice at all.  I will be happy to provide scripture that supports that.  And when sacrifices were offered, they were ONLY accepted for sins that were committed NON-INTENTIONALLY.  There is NO sacrifice for intentional sin, there is only repentance.  Secondly, God never allowed vicarious atonement (never allowed someone to take the punishment of sin for another).  Thirdly, God has forbidden any human sacrifice, it is an abomination to him and was something that the pagans did. But again, this is getting off topic. I would be happy to open another thread to discuss sin sacrifice if you are interested in discussing it.
> ...




Kerri I started with to make a long story short, there is alot more concerning this and I would not mind finding scriptures for you if you are truly interested in finding something you lost. But you have stated you dont believe new test, you dont believe Jesus was God, and you dont believe Jesus abolished the old law with his sacrifice for our sins. It will only take God for you to understand it and you have also stated you dont have the faith to believe it, so I think it would be a waste of my time and yours. I dont think your looking for something you dont understand, I think you are looking to proove the Bible wrong.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 14, 2006)

Kerri,

Are you Jewish? If you are do you believe there will be a Savior sent? I am just curious.  I have never met a person like you...

Thanks,
DB BB


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## SBG (Feb 14, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> I'm sorry SBG, I should have been more clear!!
> What I meant was, where did this idea come from? When the sacrificial system was in practice (ie; when the temple was standing and the Jews brought offerings to be sacrificed), this was not in the Law.  So where did that idea come from? Any supporting verses would of course have to come from the Old Testament... since that is where the Law was given.
> 
> Hugs!
> Kerri



Exodous 12: 1-13

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, 

2 This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. 

3 Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth day of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of their fathers, a lamb for an house: 

4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb. 

5 Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take it out from the sheep, or from the goats: 

6 And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. 

7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it. 

8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it. 

9 Eat not of it raw, nor sodden at all with water, but roast with fire; his head with his legs, and with the purtenance thereof. 

10 And ye shall let nothing of it remain until the morning; and that which remaineth of it until the morning ye shall burn with fire. 

11 And thus shall ye eat it; with your loins girded, your shoes on your feet, and your staff in your hand; and ye shall eat it in haste: it is the LORD'S passover. 

12 For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD. 

13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

God bless!


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 14, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> Kerri I started with to make a long story short, there is alot more concerning this and I would not mind finding scriptures for you if you are truly interested in finding something you lost.



I'm always interested if someone can show me the answers to something I have had questions about. That's the reason I left in the first place, unanswered questions. Or inconsistent teachings.  But I DO have an open mind, don't take what I've said the wrong way. I think sometimes people forget that I WAS a full-fledged Christian for 32 years, heart and soul.  I'm not an atheist or agnostic, so I do believe in God and I do believe in the Old Testament (Bible). I'm not on a quest to discredit anything... but when someone makes a statement that is not true, I do question where the statement comes from.




> But you have stated you dont believe new test,



Deu 4:2* Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you*, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. 

No, I don't believe the New Testament is scripture from God.  I believe the testaments in it were true to those who wrote it, but I don't believe in it's teachings because they differ from the original teachings in the Old Testament. (any longer)




> you dont believe Jesus was God,



1Kings 8:27 But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have built?  

Psalms 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no salvation.

Num 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither is he the son of man, that he should repent: 

Isa 42:8 I [am] the LORD: that [is] my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

Isa 48:11 For mine own sake, [even] for mine own sake, will I do [it]: for how should [my name] be polluted?* and I will not give my glory unto another*. 

Deu 4:12 And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.  

Deu 4:15 *Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day [that] the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire: 
 Deu 4:16 Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,  *
 Deu 4:17 The likeness of any beast that [is] on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,  
 Deu 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that [is] in the waters beneath the earth:  

Deu 4:19 *And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, [even] all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, *which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.


Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him. 




> and you dont believe Jesus abolished the old law with his sacrifice for our sins.



Deu 4:40 *Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, *which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee,* for ever*.  

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple. 

Deu 29:29 The secret [things belong] unto the LORD our God: but those [things which are] revealed [belong] unto us and to our children for ever, that [we] may do all the words of this law. 

Psa 119:44 So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. 

Pro 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer [shall be] abomination. 

Isa 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, [so] their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust:* because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts*, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel. 




> It will only take God for you to understand it and you have also stated you dont have the faith to believe it, so I think it would be a waste of my time and yours. I dont think your looking for something you dont understand, I think you are looking to proove the Bible wrong.



I'm not looking to prove the bible wrong, since I do believe in the bible (well, in the Old Testament).  That's all I asked, was for you to show me in the bible where you got the information that the sins were only put aside for one year, and where the only way to have a sin sacrifice was with blood.

I have found from personal experience that sometimes the things that are taught don't actually come from the bible.  I'll give you an example... I was taught that God showed the Jews that they were wrong for not accepting Jesus, because each year they would do a special sacrifice in the temple and put a red cord upon the altar after the sacrifice.  If the cord turned white, the sacrifice was accepted and the sins were forgiven. If the cord stayed red the sacrifice was not accepted.  I was taught that when it was done after Jesus died on the cross, the cord did not turn white, thereby telling the Jews that they were wrong for not accepting Jesus.  I relayed this information once during a discussion and the person I was speaking with asked me to back it up. Well I went to looking for it, and found of course it is not in the bible but the basis of the story (about the cords, not about Jesus) was actually taken from Jewish Kabbalah!  I think many folks don't actually know where the information from their beliefs comes from and it is when I started questioning these things that I started having my serious doubts.

But no, I wasn't trying to prove the bible wrong, I was just asking where in the bible the information you posted came from, that's all.  But if you don't want to discuss it, that's ok with me too. 

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 14, 2006)

Double Barrel BB said:
			
		

> Kerri,
> 
> Are you Jewish? If you are do you believe there will be a Savior sent? I am just curious.  I have never met a person like you...
> 
> ...



Hey DB BB!
No, I am not Jewish... however if I had to label myself with a religion, I would say that as far as doctrine goes, I do believe in what the Jews believe in, however I am not a Jew.  I have considered conversion before, but there is much more to being a Jew than just the religious aspect... being a Jew is a whole culture, not just a religion.  And since I do believe mostly as the Jews do, I don't feel a necessity to convert (at this time, anyway) because they believe we all have a place in the afterlife no matter what religion you profess.

As far as a 'Savior" goes, I believe the same as the Jews do... there is but one Savior and that is God.  There will be a "Messiah", which the word 'messiah' means 'anointed one' and there have been many anointed ones.... David was an anointed one as was Solomon, etc.  He has not arrived yet... when he does, you will know it.  The third temple will be built, the sacrificial system will resume (yes, there will be sacrifices again!), Jews from all over the world will all be gathered again to Israel, there will be universal knowledge of God, world peace, etc.  Obviously this has not happened yet!

I consider myself religion-less, having instead a relationship with God, my Creator. 

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Feb 14, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> Exodous 12: 1-13
> 
> 13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
> 
> God bless!




Hey SBG!
I'm sorry... I think we are on different pages?  The Passover was not a sin sacrifice... the blood of the lamb was put upon the doorways as a symbol to the angel of death to pass over those homes and spare the lives of those inside.  God also commanded that the lamb was to be roasted and eaten.  Not sure what the Passover has to do with sacrificing for sins?

God bless you too! 

Hugs!
Kerri


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## Mrs. Bucky (Feb 14, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Are you sure about that, Mrs. B?
> 
> Here's what Renee had posted:
> 
> ...



I am sure that if you are truely saved and are reborn in Christ, then you are saved and going to heaven.  Look at it like this.  Jesus came to this earth and died on the cross for our sins, he rose again on the third day.  He was risen!  We die to ourself the day we get saved and God makes us a new creature in him.  If you are truely saved, you died to your earthly self and began as a baby, new creature, in Christ.  I ask you, can one person be reborn to that mother who gave birth to that child? No.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one.  When you are saved, Jesus blood cleanse you of all unrightousness. You receive the Holy Spirit which in turn helps Christians in our daily walk with God.  The Holy Spirit gives guidance when you are doing wrong, etc.  A true Christian will not be happy in sin.  I know this from experience.  I was saved at a young age and in high school I turned away from God.  I missed the peace that I once had with God.  I looked for other things to fulfill that peace. Oh coarse I did not find it.  Now I can't wait to go to church and I hunger for the word of God.  I want to share with others what God has done in my life.  You will never know that peace that passes all understanding or that heavenly high one gets from being in the presence of the Lord and walking closely to him.  There is nothing like it.  I may not have a lot in earthly treasures down here, but I am so glad I am a child of God and that one day I will walk the streets of gold with my Lord and Savior.  Man, I am feeling good right now.  I could shout!  AMEN.


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## Spotlite (Feb 14, 2006)

Sorry Kerri, I did not use the quote due to the long reply. If I misread you I am sorry for that. I dont mind discussing it with you, send me a PM asking what you are looking for and I will find scripture for it. Or simply start a thread if you dont mind and I will be more than happy to see if I can find the answers to your questions. I am sure BB and SBG along with some others can offer help as well. You and I have disagreed before and I still consider you a friend so if we end up disagreeing with this subject, it will not change. But feel free to ask, at least we could see where you are coming from with it, fair enough?


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## SBG (Feb 14, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hey SBG!
> I'm sorry... I think we are on different pages?  The Passover was not a sin sacrifice... the blood of the lamb was put upon the doorways as a symbol to the angel of death to pass over those homes and spare the lives of those inside.  God also commanded that the lamb was to be roasted and eaten.  Not sure what the Passover has to do with sacrificing for sins?
> 
> God bless you too!
> ...



You're right...I misunderstood your question. Sorry.


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## leroy (Feb 14, 2006)

there was a sacrifitial system before Jesus (old testament) as a atonement for sins. So if you only believe in the Old Testament do you make sacrafices for your sins?


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## leroy (Feb 14, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> I think many folks don't actually know where the information from their beliefs comes from and it is when I started questioning these things that I started having my serious doubts.
> 
> 
> Hugs!
> Kerri





Mine come from the Bible the infallible Word of God. And the definition of infallible is incapable of error; dependable; reliable. I believe it all.


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