# The Lordship salvation controversy.



## SemperFiDawg (Aug 30, 2020)

The  *"lordship salvation" controversy* (also "*Lordship Controversy*") is a theological dispute regarding key soteriological questions within Evangelical Christianity, involving some non-denominational and Evangelical churches in North America at least since the 1980s. The dispute spawned several books, pamphlets, and conferences. According to one website advocating Lordship Salvation, "the doctrine of Lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts. Another website critical of it, defines it similarly, however: "As defined by its own advocates, Lordship Salvation could more properly be called "Commitment Salvation," "Surrender Salvation," "Slaveship Salvation," "Servantship Salvation," or "Submission Salvation" since in actuality the debate is not over the Lordship of Christ, but the response of a person to the gospel and the conditions which must be met for salvation.

Thoughts?


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## hoytman308 (Aug 30, 2020)

I can’t speak for anyone but myself.  With that said I don’t believe God has any conditions that have to be met.  It’s all by faith that you put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and allow him to come in your heart and life and save you from a devils ****.  He wants YOU to make that choice for him to be in your heart and lean on him as you walk this earthly world.  He wants you to WANT to be the child of God to shine light in this world of darkness.  I don’t see it as a set conditions.  It’s a want too or not want too for me.  Interesting post though. Never heard of what you have mentioned here.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 30, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> I can’t speak for anyone but myself.  With that said I don’t believe God has any conditions that have to be met.  It’s all by faith that you put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and allow him to come in your heart and life and save you from a devils ****.  He wants YOU to make that choice for him to be in your heart and lean on him as you walk this earthly world.  He wants you to WANT to be the child of God to shine light in this world of darkness.  I don’t see it as a set conditions.  It’s a want too or not want too for me.  Interesting post though. Never heard of what you have mentioned here.



This is the key aspect of it:


> "the doctrine of Lordship salvation teaches *that submitting to Christ as Lord* goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior.



*"that submitting to Christ as Lord" *carries notion of a master/slave relationship: Total authority and ownership by the master/ total submission and dependence by the slave.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 30, 2020)

@Madman.  I would appreciate your input on this.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 30, 2020)

How does Matt 16:24 fit in with this thought?

Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 30, 2020)

Maybe one way has individuals climbing the fence to get into the sheep pen and the other way is through the gate.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 30, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe one way has individuals climbing the fence to get into the sheep pen and the other way is through the gate.



I don't believe it has any statement as to how we obtain salvation, but the relationship we have after salvation.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 30, 2020)

The need to trust that the Lord is Savior might be faith for some. It might be the only faith they are given. It implies however that there is a dissociation between themselves, the cross and the resurrection and therefore trust is required. I suspect the inner monologue goes something like this: " I know "it" is important-- even if I don't understand or can't understand most of "it" ". Trust could be the only  common union of a saint once not redeemed.

 Trust could be as the lady who touched the hem of our Lord's garment and the Lord gave of himself spontaneously. "I am weak but I trust thou art strong."


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## Israel (Aug 31, 2020)

"Were not 10 cleansed? But only this one returns..." Was brought to mind by Walter's recent post (Striper Addict) in which he wonderfully and unapologetically persisted in stressing our relationship to Jesus Christ as paramount.
10 were touched by power, and a power to cleanse. And I have little doubt they were all made happy and to whatever extent grateful for it. But there was something different about the one who returned...and so different Jesus could not but remark on it.

Is salvation a "thing" given...or a person? The resurrection...an event...or a person? Does mercy in some way show a greater intent (and therefore intentionalality of a person) than a mere device acting in consequence? As judgement might appear...do this and the trap falls...or take that road and fall into a pit. (Though I do not regard God's judgment as any less intentional than His mercy.) In truth...the value of mercy is in some right way measured against the price incurred of refusing its truth...or what it "saves us from".

We could go through it all...life a thing...or a person? The way...a method or a person? Truth a thing or concept..etc...?

I have little need of convincing that when Jesus states to what has made claim to "have done many mighty works in His name" that He does not know them...He does not deny their "working of miracles"...but that He knows them. Something of power was touched...even made "to work"...but relationship was not entered...where a man discloses himself to another due to a trust...not just in power...but to the nature of that person entrusted.

It could sound as able to be twisted as an argument against the power of God, but it is not. But there is a "who" involved...that may often be easily overlooked in those sort of generic terms of "deity" or even "God".

Yes...the title on the office door does indeed say "King" or Lord or Lord God...but there is a "person"_ inside _(a term I use less lightly than it might appear)...for the personhood of God is the very substance from which all other personhood...derives.

In that sense He is truest of person(hood)...consistent throughout of all matter and all manner of expression of person. And how silly it would be for me, or any man...to forget it is both in and to His presence always...words are made.

I am speaking (as are we all) before an all seeing eye and an all hearing ear, but not as such a CCTV or an Echelon program seeks to capture all conversation and doings...but in connection to a heart and mind of intent and interest to be made known to us through faith in His total investment (the incarnation) into and in His creation. He has never been less...but it has been revealed to us "in these last days"... in the fullness of time. And I cannot but throw myself upon mercy to even speak of Him...in whose presence we all are...in some way sensing there's an element of my speaking as though He is not "really here" that might be interpreted thus.

To be delivered from any "ant farm" mentality is a work of power...but that power...of God...is made known only through Jesus Christ. It is in some way like a man waking from a dream to meet someone and can say at last "oh, now I can put a face to the name"

For God was in (yes! Is in!) Christ reconciling the world to Himself.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 31, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> How does Matt 16:24 fit in with this thought?
> 
> Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.



It totally supports it. As do many others

Philippians 2:5

 In your relationships with one another, *have the same mindset as Christ Jesus*:
Who, being in very nature God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, *he made himself nothing*
    by *taking the very nature of a slave*,
    being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
*he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death*—
        even death on a cross!


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 31, 2020)

Israel said:


> "Were not 10 cleansed? But only this one returns..." Was brought to mind by Walter's recent post (Striper Addict) in which he wonderfully and unapologetically persisted in stressing our relationship to Jesus Christ as paramount.



It's the nature of that relationship that is paramount.  Is it as Master or friend, because there's a very distinctive difference between the two.


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## Israel (Aug 31, 2020)

Why call ye me Lord Lord yet do not do the things I say?


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## Israel (Aug 31, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's the nature of that relationship that is paramount.  Is is as Master or friend, because there's a very distinctive difference between the two.


Yet...no doubt He is the Master, no?

But as experienced in this relationship

"I no longer call you servants, but friends..."

This:

"But go and tell My brothers, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.''

And this:

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified _are_ all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

An elder brother "left in charge" of the children by a loving Father (and to whom that elder brother has already displayed all faithfulness)   loves the children because they are beloved of the Father.

And we might not be remiss to remember the scriptures of which we claim as true, there is an abundance of reference to a thing, that even were one not at all familiar with through the Bible would know...sibling rivalry.

Yet in Christ there is none, is there? No impatience with the Father's babies, no impatience with his rowdy children...learning young teens...and growing men. He simply is the elder brother...the one who "went through first" and cannot be denied as knowing the way we have yet to experience.

And when I say "simply" I do not mean as a "mere thing"...but in His simplicity He holds that view of Himself relative to us..."I was chosen to go through first...but just as I was chosen, so have they (you) been".

"You will indeed drink of my cup...'

Admittedly the younger children have little confession beyond "Brother...if not for you having gone through first to teach me, and show me, I would not have even seen the cup or learned of its right choosing...all I see is only because of your tireless tutelage...even to recognizing our Father, at all..."

There is an order being restored...to some a dread imposition and hard thing...to others some less so, and to others the only right and delightful thing to be revealed.

How we see and are dealt with is very much contingent upon our understanding of relationship...for we must admit there is a time before the "no longer do I call you..."
where even the children have the experience of servants to the elder brother.

"The servant is not greater than His master...what they have done to me they shall do to you.."

Now I say _that_ the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

May the Lord grant us to accept His judgment of us. For it is our "big brother" to whom the Father has entrusted all things in our regard.

We make no mistake in knowing Him as Lord and Master...and indeed the argument is easily made he will not be known as any other (such as brother) till this be firmly and undeniably established.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 31, 2020)

If Jesus humbles himself I suspect it is to meet individuals where they are.  The soldier who sought Jesus so his daughter would be healed sought a Master not a friend.

It could be observed that Peter sought a Master and John sought a friend and yet both as to salvation are equally satisfied on the day of Pentecost. We cannot doubt their salvation. Both give of what they have as men who are born again give--- which is Christ powerful and humble. For Peter's search of the Lord Peter ministers with humbleness and John's search for friendship makes John's ministry forceful and powerful. So the evidence of salvation for these two is not similar.

So Jesus saves people from where they are and what they come from, which implies that we are not similar as individual and come from different backgrounds  and gives to what is perceived as needed by an individual but also tempers it with a new heart of flesh or God's own heart.

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong."


The evidence of salvation must not be universal or a tick off across the board. Ask for friendship and you will receive friendship and yet you will minister in the Lord with strength. Ask for Lordship and you will receive it and be humbled to minister to those who are weakest so they can be strong in faith. Both give what they have been given. The evidence of salvation for one is not the same as to the other---yet both to God are intimately known as friends.

To see, to do and to speak from the heart of Jesus is very different than to see, to do and to speak from the heart of the fallen world or its wickedness. Injury for injury is revenge and injury for injury with a Marshall plan is evidence of salvation.

Love God with all your heart and others as yourself.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 31, 2020)

Maybe a part of the Lordship in relation to the Philippians passage would be for us to also humble ourselves to man as well as God.

Didn't Jesus become a servant of both man and God?

The whole passage is about how we treat others. One would have to empty himself of his own pride and selfish interest. Christ doing this was used as an example.

It is true though that the example of Lordship to God is given as the example for us also. Part of this Lordship would therefore be how we forget our own interest for that of the others.


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## SemperFiDawg (Aug 31, 2020)

Israel said:


> Yet...no doubt He is the Master, no?
> 
> But as experienced in this relationship
> 
> "I no longer call you servants, but friends..."



But note very clearly he called them friends.  That does not imply that they can see him as a friend and not Master.  In the same way he called Abraham 'friend' as spoken about in James 2 "“And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God."  It denotes a change in the relationship from God's end not mans.  That's my thoughts as you summed up in the last few sentences of your post.


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## Madman (Sep 1, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> @Madman.  I would appreciate your input on this.


Good mornong SemperFiDawg.  Been out of pocket for a while.  Let me spend some time with it.  Thanks for the ask.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 1, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is the key aspect of it:
> 
> 
> *"that submitting to Christ as Lord" *carries notion of a master/slave relationship: Total authority and ownership by the master/ total submission and dependence by the slave.



To my understanding a master/ slave relationship gives no choice in that particular “relationship” if in fact that’s what that is called.  That being said God or the Lord Jesus Christ gives you the choice to follow him or be like him.  Hence true love one to another.  When it’s enforced or forced it’s not choice or true from one heart to another heart.


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## furtaker (Sep 1, 2020)

Lordship salvation is works for salvation and you can't sugarcoat it any other way. Assurance of salvation is impossible with lordship salvation. How do you ever know if you're committed "enough"? You can never know until the end and even then you might fall away.

Salvation is a free gift according to the Bible. Man sure does enjoy adding works to it though.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> To my understanding a master/ slave relationship gives no choice in that particular “relationship” if in fact that’s what that is called.  That being said God or the Lord Jesus Christ gives you the choice to follow him or be like him.  Hence true love one to another.  When it’s enforced or forced it’s not choice or true from one heart to another heart.



I'm not sure I catch your meaning regarding "no choice".  Are you speaking of the slave having no choice about entering the relationship or no choice once IN the relationship or both?


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Lordship salvation is works for salvation and you can't sugarcoat it any other way. Assurance of salvation is impossible with lordship salvation. How do you ever know if you're committed "enough"? You can never know until the end and even then you might fall away.
> 
> Salvation is a free gift according to the Bible. Man sure does enjoy adding works to it though.



I don't understand the rational that supports the points in your first paragraph or any of the points in it.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  I just don't see the line of reasoning that leads to your conclusions.  Would you explain?


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## Madman (Sep 2, 2020)

SemperFiDawg you sure do keep me on my toes. 

I am going to start with a disclaimer; "I willing and freely enter into this discussion by my own choice, I have in no way been coerced or forced to provide views and/or opinions. It is not my intention, directly or indirectly to offend any of my Christian brothers, or sisters, but only to present the Biblical and historical facts as they have been taught to me over the years by the ministers of Christ's Church and God's Word."

"It is the job of the Church to teach and the Bible to prove"  _Author unknown but not me_

This appears to be a dispute between strict Calvinists and the more loose Arminians, of which I am neither, because both of these Christian groups, Calvinist and Arminian, work within an innovative framework from the 16th century which is antithetical to Holy Scripture and Apostolic Tradition, therefore, since I have done no in depth study on these topics I choose to use the "counterfeit test".  

In other words, the FBI, which is arguably the best judge of US counterfeit currency, does so not by studying all the possible counterfeit options but instead studies the one true currency of the US so when presented a counterfeit note they immediately recognize that there is a problem.  

That is what I see in the argument presented in Lordship Salvation, it is simply off from the Gospel of God and I reject it as counterfeit to the Gospel that was preached for the first 1500 years. (Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God's curse!)

I have attempted to present the "orthodox" doctrine on the subject below.

Out of love for sinful man (John 3.16), God our Lord sent his Son into the world, who reconciled all things in heaven and on earth (Colossians 1.20) and renewed creation by his resurrection (2 Corinthians 5. 15-18). Jesus Christ commanded his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations (Matthew 28.19f) so that his salvation may give light to all who sit in darkness and in the shadow of death (Luke 1.79). The appropriation of salvation by individual human beings takes place in the Church through the work of the Holy Spirit who grants his grace. The Holy Spirit, who proceeds from the Father and rests in the Son and is given and has appeared through the Son to the faithful (Saint John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith 8), always remains in the Church, fills it and builds it up, renews and sanctifies it and makes it into an 'ark of salvation' for the whole world. He is the Paraclete who is sent by the Lord to lead the Church into all truth (John 16. 13).

All that the Saviour brings about in the Church for the well-being of men is, according to the holy Fathers, 'fulfilled by the grace of the Spirit' (Saint Basil the Great, On the Holy Spirit 16/39). The Holy Spirit is the soul of the Church, the life-giving, sanctifying and unifying power of its body. The Holy Spirit and the Church are inseparable: 'for where the Church is, there the Spirit of God is also, and where the Spirit of God is, there the Church is and all grace' (Saint Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies 3.24.1). The Holy Spirit is fundamental for the new existence of man in the Church whose rebirth occurs by water and the Spirit (John 3.5). We humans receive the gift of the Holy Spirit in the Church through Christ, and thus become children of God and fellow heirs with Christ (Romans 8.15-17); we are brought back into communion with God, for which he has created us.

The spirit of sonship lives in our hearts and cries: 'Abba, Father' (Romans 8.15; Galatians 4.6). He 'helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with sighs too deep for words' (Romans 8.26). The Spirit lives in the body of the faithful as in a temple (1 Corinthians 6.19). He unites them in the celebration of Holy Eucharist to the one body in the fellowship of the Church. He allows Christians to take part in his holiness; they become 'partakers of the divine nature' (2 Peter 1.4), i.e. 'deified through the partaking of the divine shining of the light and not changed into the divine being' (Saint John of Damascus, Orthodox Faith 26). He imparts to each individual his gift of grace for the building up of the Body of Christ: the gift of speaking wisdom, the gift of speaking knowledge, the gift of healing, the gift of discerning spirits, and especially the gift of ordained ministry as an organ for building up this Body (1 Corinthians 12:4-11).


God saves man without violating his free will. 'He wants all to be saved but he forces nobody. God is willing ... to save man not against his will and determination, but with his will and freely-made decision' (Saint John Chrysostom, Homily 3.6). The appropriation of salvation in Christ by man occurs by the cooperation of the Holy Spirit and man. The Holy Spirit effects the vocation, the illumination, the conversion, the justification, the rebirth in Baptism and the sanctification in the Church; man, for his part, accepts the grace offered and participates freely by faith and his good works, in other words, by 'faith working through love' (Galatians 5.6). This cooperation is not to be understood as if God alone achieves one part of the work and man alone another; rather all things are achieved by God, without whose help man can do nothing for his salvation.



But man also participates in all things, he is moved to act himself and not to remain inactive (Saint Augustine, corrept. 2/4: _aguntur ut agant, non ut ipsi nihil agant_). 'From the God of the universe, who works all in all, we must believe that he does it in the manner that he awakens, protects and strengthens the free will which he himself once granted and not in such a way that he nullifies it' (Saint John Cassian, coll. 13.18; Saint Augustine, Spir. et litt 34/60). This cooperation of God and man embraces the entire new life in Christ. One cannot say that man behaves passively in any act of faith - and were it even the first one - and that God alone works in him.

Correspondingly, the Church rejects any teaching according to which God alone grants his saving grace to some but not to others, thus by his decree predestinating some to salvation, others to daXXation. God is not the originator of evil but the source of life and salvation. That is why he desires 'all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Timothy 2.4). The rebirth and sanctification of men is the special work of the Holy Spirit. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit expected at the end of time has already occurred in the Church since the day of Pentecost (Acts 2.16-18). The glory of the end time is no longer merely a hope but already a present reality. The presence of the Holy Spirit in the Church offers certain guarantee for this. If we have in our hearts the part, which is the pledge of the Spirit, we will not doubt the whole, which is the perfection of the gift in the blessedness of eternal life (Romans 8.23; 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30; Titus 3:6; Saint John Chrysostom, res. mort. 8)

In short "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." (John 3:17)  Christ's coming was a rescue mission sent by God on our behalf.

Of all the teachings of the atonement I believe Christus victor to be the best explanation. 

God's peace.


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I don't understand the rational that supports the points in your first paragraph or any of the points in it.  I'm not saying you are wrong.  I just don't see the line of reasoning that leads to your conclusions.  Would you explain?


If someone has to make Christ the Lord and Master of his life, promise to serve Him, and persevere in good works until the end to obtain salvation, then salvation is by works.

Wouldn't you agree?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> If someone has to make Christ the Lord and Master of his life, promise to serve Him, and persevere in good works until the end to obtain salvation, then salvation is by works.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?


Obtain or keep salvation?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

It seems like Lordship Salvation would be a conflict with the Reformed view or Calvinism view of Salvation by Election. Unless it is being used as proof of Salvation by Election.

I would think it to be more along the lines of Catholicism or Evangelical Christianity than a Reformed aspect.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> If someone has to make Christ the Lord and Master of his life, promise to serve Him, and persevere in good works until the end to obtain salvation, then salvation is by works.
> 
> Wouldn't you agree?



"and persevere in good works until the end to obtain salvation" 

Unsure exactly what you mean by that, but I think that maybe, based on the way it is phrased that you are making an assumption about the doctrine that isn't there.  Would you clarify what you mean by the above phrase, specifically the term persevere?


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## Madman (Sep 2, 2020)

The command is to persevere, to make efforts, to fight, to run the race, to press on, to endure, etc.

We are saved by God and God alone, however, Biblically we have a part in our own salvation.  as I wrote above;

God saves man without violating his free will. 'He wants all to be saved but he forces nobody. God is willing ... to save man not against his will and determination, but with his will and freely-made decision' (Saint John Chrysostom, Homily 3.6). The appropriation of salvation in Christ by man occurs by the cooperation of the Holy Spirit and man. The Holy Spirit effects the vocation, the illumination, the conversion, the justification, the rebirth in Baptism and the sanctification in the Church; man, for his part, accepts the grace offered and participates freely by faith and his good works, in other words, by 'faith working through love' (Galatians 5.6). This cooperation is not to be understood as if God alone achieves one part of the work and man alone another; rather all things are achieved by God, without whose help man can do nothing for his salvation.



But man also participates in all things, he is moved to act himself and not to remain inactive (Saint Augustine, corrept. 2/4: _aguntur ut agant, non ut ipsi nihil agant_). 'From the God of the universe, who works all in all, we must believe that he does it in the manner that he awakens, protects and strengthens the free will which he himself once granted and not in such a way that he nullifies it' (Saint John Cassian, coll. 13.18; Saint Augustine, Spir. et litt 34/60). This cooperation of God and man embraces the entire new life in Christ. One cannot say that man behaves passively in any act of faith - and were it even the first one - and that God alone works in him.


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## Madman (Sep 2, 2020)

I have always been confused by the idea that we have no part in our own salvation.

Once God has "applied" His saving grace to us........... what next?  Do we do nothing?  Do we become puppets performing as God would have us?  Is there a change? Do we have any responsibility with regards to language, behavior, etc?


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Obtain or keep salvation?


Either one.  Some people say that if a Christian doesn't live right then he loses his salvation.  Others say that if he doesn't live right then he never really had it.

Where's the difference?


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> "and persevere in good works until the end to obtain salvation"
> 
> Unsure exactly what you mean by that, but I think that maybe, based on the way it is phrased that you are making an assumption about the doctrine that isn't there.  Would you clarify what you mean by the above phrase, specifically the term persevere?


No assumptions here.  The doctrine is called "Perseverance of the Saints".  Lordshippers believe that a Christian will live a generally good life full of obedience and good works up until the end.  If he doesn't, then he probably never really had salvation in the first place.  Read John MacArthur's thoughts on the subject.

I, on the other hand, believe a Christian can live a completely rotten life and still go to heaven.  Scripture warns against it because there are consequences to the actions of believers.  Blessings and rewards should be strong motivators for a Christian.  But the bottom line is that how a person lives has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation. It's called salvation by grace.

If living a godly life is automatic at salvation, then why is there multitudes of commands in Scripture for Christians, not lost people, to live right and stop living in sin?


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

I had a lordship man tell me one time that he could look at a person's life and tell whether or not he was a Christian.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

John 13:35

By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."



furtaker said:


> I had a lordship man tell me one time that he could look at a person's life and tell whether or not he was a Christian.



appears to me that he might be on to something.

James 3:10-12
10 Out of the same mouth come blessing and cursing. My brothers, this should not be! 11 Can both fresh water and bitter water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree grow olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.…


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> John 13:35
> 
> By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."
> 
> ...


You ever had both blessing and cursing come out of your mouth?


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> You ever had both blessing and cursing come out of your mouth?



yep.  Just like you have.

it was a sin, just like yours.

Is it a habitual thing?  Lord, I pray not.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> No assumptions here.  The doctrine is called "Perseverance of the Saints".  Lordshippers believe that a Christian will live a generally good life full of obedience and good works up until the end.  If he doesn't, then he probably never really had salvation in the first place.  Read John MacArthur's thoughts on the subject.
> 
> I, on the other hand, believe a Christian can live a completely rotten life and still go to heaven.  Scripture warns against it because there are consequences to the actions of believers.  Blessings and rewards should be strong motivators for a Christian.  But the bottom line is that how a person lives has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation. It's called salvation by grace.
> 
> If living a godly life is automatic at salvation, then why is there multitudes of commands in Scripture for Christians, not lost people, to live right and stop living in sin?



My friend.  You are mistaken about a great deal.  a very great deal.  I don't get the feeling you are one to be reasoned with, so we can just call an end to my and your conversation.


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> yep.  Just like you have.
> 
> it was a sin, just like yours.
> 
> Is it a habitual thing?  Lord, I pray not.


I hope it isn't habitual in my life either.  But my salvation does not depend on it either way and neither does yours.  James said nothing of the sort.


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My friend.  You are mistaken about a great deal.  a very great deal.  I don't get the feeling you are one to be reasoned with, so we can just call an end to my and your conversation.



Well, first of all you accused me of making assumptions, and now you say that I am mistaken about a great deal, but you haven't attempted to make one counter argument or disprove what I said.

What am I wrong about?  Does lordship salvation not teach what I said it teaches?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> I hope it isn't habitual in my life either.  But my salvation does not depend on it either way and neither does yours.  James said nothing of the sort.


I tend to agree, having seen that most Christians sin as much as non-Christians, and things such as morality being just as bad in the Bible Belt, etc.
Perhaps since we all sin equally regardless of who has salvation, what about repentance?


----------



## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I tend to agree, having seen that most Christians sin as much as non-Christians, and things such as morality being just as bad in the Bible Belt, etc.
> Perhaps since we all sin equally regardless of who has salvation, what about repentance?


The Greek word for repentance simply means to change the mind.  When a person believes in Jesus for salvation, he just changed his mind.  "Turning from sin" is many preachers' definition of repentance, but not the biblical definition.  I don't know a single person who has turned from his sins.  The Apostle Paul said that sin dwelled in him.  I suspect many people today would say that the man having relations with his stepmother in 1 Corinthians was not a believer, but Paul said he was.

Christians should strive to sin less.  Sin has consequences in the believer's life and God disciplines his children.  But the consequences for a Christian will never be h*ll, and I'm not going to pull the wool over someone's eyes and tell them that if they sin a lot they are not a believer.  As a matter of fact, the Bible teaches the opposite.  It teaches a constant war between the flesh and the Spirit.  The believer can choose to live under either one and accept the consequences of his decision.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> The Greek word for repentance simply means to change the mind.



Metanoia, the Greek word translated repent or repentance doesn't just mean to change your mind.  It means a transformative change of mind.  Something that causes a person to make a cognitive decision to change the direction of his life.  

Webster defined it as "a transformative change of heart; _especially_: a spiritual conversion," 

It isn't the same thing as deciding you want chocolate ice cream today, rather than the strawberry you usually get.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Metanoia, the Greek word translated repent or repentance doesn't just mean to change your mind.  It means a transformative change of mind.  Something that causes a person to make a cognitive decision to change the direction of his life.
> 
> Webster defined it as "a transformative change of heart; _especially_: a spiritual conversion,"
> 
> It isn't the same thing as deciding you want chocolate ice cream today, rather than the strawberry you usually get.


Does one have to actually "change" or just have a want to change?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does one have to actually "change" or just have a want to change?



Is it in our power to change?  Shoot, I can't even stay away from the peach cobbler that I know isn't good for me to eat.  

I think the desire to change comes first, and then the changing comes on gradually.  When I was first diagnosed with diabetes, ( thank you Granny, Grandma, and Papa for the genetics) I couldn't stand drinking unsweetened tea, but I would some times, and sometimes water.  After a few weeks of only water with unsweetened tea when I could stand it, I got to where I couldn't stand to drink sweet tea. Just one sip, and my mouth would feel like it was coated in slime and a horrid taste in the back of my throat.  I got to where I could taste the sugar in tea if it were only a few teaspoons in a gallon.

I think our spiritual lives mature a lot like that.  We know we ought to do something, but it is hard to lay down at first. But we try.  The more we try, the easier it gets. Then one day, the slightest act or mention of those sins make us feel 'coated' or slimy.  

No, I know our salvation isn't from works. It is grace, but I do believe that as believers we are called to model after Christ.  To grow a little every day in our desire to pattern our life after the life of Christ.


----------



## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Metanoia, the Greek word translated repent or repentance doesn't just mean to change your mind.  It means a transformative change of mind.  Something that causes a person to make a cognitive decision to change the direction of his life.
> 
> Webster defined it as "a transformative change of heart; _especially_: a spiritual conversion,"
> 
> It isn't the same thing as deciding you want chocolate ice cream today, rather than the strawberry you usually get.


No it doesn't. The word literally means "after think" which in the simplest way English can put it, means to change the mind or to think differently about something.

How do you explain a "transformative change of mind" to a lost man?  What if he makes a cognitive decision to change his life today but recants his decision in 2 years?

Does faith alone secure his salvation or is it faith plus his decision to change his life?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> No it doesn't. The word literally means "after think" which in the simplest way English can put it, means to change the mind or to think differently about something.
> 
> How do you explain a "transformative change of mind" to a lost man?  What if he makes a cognitive decision to change his life today but recants his decision in 2 years?
> 
> Does faith alone secure his salvation or is it faith plus his decision to change his life?



go and argue with Mr Webster if you don't like the definition.  I can only go by what I read and understand.

So, what does happen if a man changes his mind 2, 4 or 40 years after he makes a decision to follow Christ?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

I often think about the Drunkard Christian. He may want to quit but even with the Holy Spirit, sometimes he may never overcome. Perhaps even dying as a Drunkard. 
So for him hopefully a mental change was enough.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> No it doesn't. The word literally means "after think" which in the simplest way English can put it, means to change the mind or to think differently about something.
> 
> How do you explain a "transformative change of mind" to a lost man?  What if he makes a cognitive decision to change his life today but recants his decision in 2 years?
> 
> Does faith alone secure his salvation or is it faith plus his decision to change his life?


I've often thought it was to repent or change ones mind from thinking he can save himself by law keeping to realizing that he can't. He must repent from that way of thinking and realize that he can't save himself and thus must accept that Jesus died for that very reason.


----------



## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> go and argue with Mr Webster if you don't like the definition.  I can only go by what I read and understand.
> 
> So, what does happen if a man changes his mind 2, 4 or 40 years after he makes a decision to follow Christ?


A person isn't saved by making a decision to follow Christ.  That's my whole point.

A person is saved by believing in Jesus alone for eternal life.  His death and resurrection paid our debt and he doesn't need any help from us.

There's a world of difference between following (discipleship) and believing (salvation).  One of them requires works.


----------



## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've often thought it was to repent or change ones mind from thinking he can save himself by law keeping to realizing that he can't. He must repent from that way of thinking and realize that he can't save himself and thus must accept that Jesus died for that very reason.


Yep, if you thought you could save yourself by good works but now realize you can't, you just changed your mind.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Yep, if you thought you could save yourself by good works but now realize you can't, you just changed your mind.



which is not repentance.

I thought I wanted to start another business this year, but I decided not to.  I changed my mind. That isn't repentance


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

Was reading this; 
The Law and the gospel are to be carefully distinguished.

The gospel gives us the remedy: _receive and rest on Christ alone, through faith._ 

Because Lordship Salvation blurs law and gospel, it also has a defective understanding of discipleship. 

Pastor Fonville says:
When you turn the gospel (the covenant of grace) into the covenant of works and make personal spirit-wrought sanctity a condition for salvation, you have just injected the covenant of works back into the covenant of grace and you have destroyed the gospel.

https://cryingoutforjustice.blog/20...ation-vv-easy-believism-vv-reformed-theology/


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

I remember discussing this topic years ago and listening to David Platt. He wrote a book about it called "Radical;


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## furtaker (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> which is not repentance.
> 
> I thought I wanted to start another business this year, but I decided not to.  I changed my mind. That isn't repentance


In your humble opinion. 
Do you think a man has to turn from sins to be saved?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> In your humble opinion.
> Do you think a man has to turn from sins to be saved?


If man could repent from sin, then he would not have needed Jesus to begin with.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> In your humble opinion.
> Do you think a man has to turn from sins to be saved?



I think if a man is saved his life will be different afterward.

Do you think that because a murderer says 'I don't think I will hack anyone else to death' , that he has repented from murdering others?

Do you think you have to be baptized to be saved?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> If man could repent from sin, then he would not have needed Jesus to begin with.



no man can repent unless the Spirit draws him.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> no man can repent unless the Spirit draws him.


Again though what about the Drunkard? He has a desire to quit but just can't quite overcome. Even with the Spirit living with his spirit.

Another example would be why do Christians wait until they are older to repent from sin if that is what repentance is? Young people are saved but they go on living a life of sin. Then when they get older, they suddenly repent.

I don't see this progression in most as being Spirit lead. It's almost an "after the fact journey" forced on by age.
They just to old to do the old sinful things or have lost the desire to do the old sinful things. Then and only then do they repent.

I don't see it as a deeper spiritual transformation for most folks.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 2, 2020)

Somehow we got off on salvation which is from grace. I think Lordship or Discipleship is maybe something different. Maybe as one matures he may become a better disciple than others.
Therefore I wouldn't call it Lordship "Salvation."


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Well, first of all you accused me of making assumptions, and now you say that I am mistaken about a great deal, but you haven't attempted to make one counter argument or disprove what I said.
> 
> What am I wrong about?  Does lordship salvation not teach what I said it teaches?




No, actually it doesn't.  I've read the book you suggested by John McArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, twice and am reading it a third time.  Let me be blunt.  It doesn't say what you have asserted.  If you are certain it does, it's as simple as posting the quote and annotating it so I can find it in my copies (digital or paper would be fine.)  

I've asked you to clarify your stance. You haven't, only becoming more and more defensive.  As far as disproving what you said, You said it.  It's generally accepted practice throughout the entire world that when one makes an assertion the burden is on that person  to defend it, not everyone else to disprove it.  That's just how it works in a rational conversation.  However, anyone even vaguely familiar with the Bible will recognize your statements :

"I, on the other hand, believe a Christian can live a completely rotten life and still go to heaven."

and

"But the bottom line is that how a person lives has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation" have absolutely NO scriptural support and are directly contradictory to what scripture teaches.  Even an atheist would recognize the hypocrisy of such a notion.   This is what leads me to believe we have nothing to talk about.....no common ground.  .  Good day.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I tend to agree, having seen that most Christians sin as much as non-Christians, and things such as morality being just as bad in the Bible Belt, etc.
> Perhaps since we all sin equally regardless of who has salvation, what about repentance?



Or perhaps most people who self- identify as Christians take their commitment to Christ about as serious as non-Christians do.  ya reckon that might explain it?

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.

Gilbert K. Chesterton


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again though what about the Drunkard?



Let me speak to that personally, because I am one.  I tried to quit for years, decades,  and was mad at God because he didn't deliver me from it.  Truth is all I really wanted was to be free from the consequences.  I liked drinking.  I just didn't like the repercussions.  When it finally got to the point that the prospect of tomorrow was more painful than the pains of all those yesterday, that changed.  That was the bottom.  That was when I quit trying to play paddy-cake with God and submitted to him and he was there, just like he always had been and always will be.  You have to be truthful when you come to him, not with pretense.  Since that time I've witnessed many succeed and many fail and many fall.  Be it from alcohol, drugs, sexual affairs, gambling, unethical business dealings, etc those who fail all have one universal thing in common:  They stop doing Gods will and start doing their own.  You know, the original sin.  It is the root of all sin: selfishness.  Life is very simple  His will or my will.  That's the choices.  His will glorifies him, my will glorifies Satan and destroyed me and others in the process.  So I do believe in the Lordship doctrine, not just because it's firmly based on scripture, but it explains in the comprehensive way life as I have experienced it and it correlates perfectly to reality as it plays out around me.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 2, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I remember discussing this topic years ago and listening to David Platt. He wrote a book about it called "Radical;



IMHO one of the best books out there.


----------



## Israel (Sep 3, 2020)

As with anything written it might serve us (seeing the primary interest in salvation is God's and not our own) to inquire of the spirit responsible for such written inspiration "What do you mean by repent and/or repentance?"

Some may easily fear this will open to door to either "too many" possible interpretations as each man could say "I heard this" or "I heard that" and leave any listener _to man _in his original quandary. But we might as well admit that is where we remain if we trust the man Webster for our understandings, anyway.

I realize such recommendation comes with caution and also opens the door to every accusation that a man could level against anyone so saying in recommendation in regard to_ any _given account _in words being: _

"Are you saying nothing means anything _to a man _(even if rendered in what appears simplest or plainest of words) until God reveals what He means by them?"

Yes.

Does that mean only the Lord truly knows what He is talking about?


----------



## gemcgrew (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Even an atheist would recognize the hypocrisy of such a notion.


Appeal to authority?


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.
> 
> Gilbert K. Chesterton



Ain't G.K. Great!

P.S. He  was an Anglican too!


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I remember discussing this topic years ago and listening to David Platt. He wrote a book about it called "Radical;


Don't want to get off topic, but he is right.  Welcome to post Reformation Christianity.


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## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> "I, on the other hand, believe a Christian can live a completely rotten life and still go to heaven."
> 
> and
> 
> "But the bottom line is that how a person lives has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation" have absolutely NO scriptural support and are directly contradictory to what scripture teaches.  Even an atheist would recognize the hypocrisy of such a notion.   This is what leads me to believe we have nothing to talk about.....no common ground.  .  Good day.


^^^ looking for this in Holy Scripture.  I seem to remember phrases from Jesus ike "Go and sin no more".

Just saying


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> Ain't G.K. Great!
> 
> P.S. He  was an Anglican too!


 
yes he was


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> ^^^ looking for this in Holy Scripture.  I seem to remember phrases from Jesus ike "Go and sin no more".
> 
> Just saying



Yeah.  I uhhh


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Somehow we got off on salvation which is from grace. I think Lordship or Discipleship is maybe something different. Maybe as one matures he may become a better disciple that others.
> Therefore I wouldn't call it Lordship "Salvation."


Bingo!

The horse can pull the cart or the horse can push the cart, but when the cart pulls or pushes the horse you can be sure that things are not on the level.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 3, 2020)

Have I missed, in the opinions rendered in this thread, the effect of Devine Omnipotence?

I certainly didn't miss the effect of Confirmation Bias; or was that my confirmation bias working?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Or perhaps most people who self- identify as Christians take their commitment to Christ about as serious as non-Christians do.  ya reckon that might explain it?
> 
> Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.
> 
> Gilbert K. Chesterton


How does one have the assurance of salvation if it is dependent upon a certain repentance level?
A meek and humble Christian may not have the same assurance if it is based on a certain level of "not sinning" compared to a boastful and proud Christian.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does one have the assurance of salvation if it is dependent upon a certain repentance level?
> A meek and humble Christian may not have the same assurance if it is based on a certain level of "not sinning" compared to a boastful and proud Christian.


Is salvation assured or offered?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Or perhaps most people who self- identify as Christians take their commitment to Christ about as serious as non-Christians do.  ya reckon that might explain it?
> 
> Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and not tried.
> 
> Gilbert K. Chesterton


It's really sad that we have millions of Americans that identify as Christian and even state their morality comes from their God, yet they have not repented enough to purchase their own salvation.

If one does have to purchase their own salvation through repentance of sin, I know very few Christians. The ones I know must be CINO's or Christians in name only. Even their Country Music and movies reflects their lifestyle and who they truly are. They fuss and fight, drink too much, womanizers, leaving their wives to go party and have fun, they curse, etc.

Plus they have envy in their hearts, jealousy, pride, not very meek nor humble, and full of lust. They look at every woman on the street with lust in their hearts. They have no empathy, they hate immigrants and foreigners.
Most would not help someone in need lying helpless in an alley. Even if that person was begging for help.

And I'm as guilty as any of those cheaters and liars.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> Is salvation assured or offered?


Perhaps it doesn't matter if it is assured or offered. It might make someone "act right" if he doesn't have assurance.

Couldn't it also make someone give up? Knowing that he can never die and re-incarnate in three days? Knowing that he can never leave his family to become a disciple? Knowing that he can never surrender all and follow Jesus 24 hours of the day?


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## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Perhaps it doesn't matter if it is assured or offered. It might make someone "act right" if he doesn't have assurance.


I believe it matters a lot.  If your salvation is assured after some prayer, some anything, and nothing can remove it, then you get some interesting beliefs.  As we have seen here.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> Is salvation assured or offered?


I've just noticed that the meek and humble Christians don't have the assurance that the proud and boastful Christians have.
Kind of ironic when you think about it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> I believe it matters a lot.  If your salvation is assured after some prayer, some anything, and nothing can remove it, then you get some interesting beliefs.  As we have seen here.


If it is assured then you can listen to Country Music songs about cheating, fighting, and drinking. As long as you go to Church on Sunday. Never mind ever helping to feed and clothe Jesus. Just remain patriotic and make sure your favorite singer does a few patriotic songs among his drinking and party songs.

Vote for the pro-gun guy, fight, curse, hate, no empathy,  be lustful, and cheat others. You have the assurance of Salvation from your fellow friends who all do the same things you do.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's really sad that we have millions of Americans that identify as Christian and even state their morality comes from their God, yet they have not repented enough to purchase their own salvation.
> 
> If one does have to purchase their own salvation through repentance of sin, I know very few Christians. The ones I know must be CINO's or Christians in name only. Even their Country Music and movies reflects their lifestyle and who they truly are. They fuss and fight, drink too much, womanizers, leaving their wives to go party and have fun, they curse, etc.
> 
> ...


Yet through confession and repentance we can be made clean;

He came to my desk with a quivering lip—
—The lesson was done.
“Dear Teacher, I want a new leaf,” he said,
—“I have spoiled this one.”
I took the old leaf, stained and blotted,
And gave him a new one all unspotted,
—And into his sad eyes smiled,
—“Do better, now, my child.”

I went to the throne with a quivering soul—
—The Old Year was done.
“Dear Father, hast Thou a new leaf for me?
—I have spoiled this one.”
He took the old leaf, stained and blotted,
And gave me a new one all unspotted,
—And into my sad heart smiled,
—“Do better, now, my child.” 
_by Helen Field Fischer _


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> As long as you go to Church on Sunday.


You may have noticed some do not believe Church is necessary.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

I'm just glad that we get to re-repent ever so often. I just hope I don't die during the re-repent times. The times when I do lose my way. The times when I do struggle with addiction or gambling.
The times when I do have lust or when I am boastful.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Vote for the pro-gun guy,



Odd to find this in the list of offenses.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm just glad that we get to re-repent ever so often. I just hope I don't die during the re-repent times. The times when I do lose my way. The times when I do struggle with addiction or gambling.
> The times when I do have lust or when I am boastful.


Sin; mortal vs. venial


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> Odd to find this in the list of offenses.


I didn't mean it as an offense, it's just a prerequisite along with patriotism for some Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> Sin; mortal vs. venial


Are they not both committed in full knowledge of the flesh? Am I only required to repent of mortal sins?


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I didn't mean it as an offense, it's just a prerequisite along with patriotism for some Christians.


I would say "vote for the anti-abortion guy".


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> Sin; mortal vs. venial


If I could save myself by not sinning, what did Jesus accomplish by dying on the Cross?


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've just noticed that the meek and humble Christians don't have the assurance that the proud and boastful Christians have.
> Kind of ironic when you think about it.


When I think of assurance I think of God "assuring" salvation based on some thing I have done, such as; I said the prayer, I confess Christ.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> I would say "vote for the anti-abortion guy".


But does he have the empathy to take care of all of those babies once they are born or does he just hand it over to their parents?

Christianity doesn't stop once a baby is born.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> If I could save myself by not sinning, what did Jesus accomplish by dying on the Cross?


If you had and will never sin, then you would not need Christ, but you have sinned therefore Christ saves you.  You should still strive for the sinless life.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> When I think of assurance I think of God "assuring" salvation based on some thing I have done, such as; I said the prayer, I confess Christ.


In other words assurance is the offer and only the offer?
I briefly looked at about a 100 verses about the assurance of salvation and they didn't seem to be about the assurance of the offer. In fact since there are so many verses about the assurance of salvation, it must mean it to be a big part of the Gospel.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> If you had and will never sin, then you would not need Christ, but you have sinned therefore Christ saves you.  You should still strive for the sinless life.


I understand the striving part. What I don't understand is the prerequisite of doing it to buy my salvation. If I could stop sinning to gain salvation, I would not have needed a Savior.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> If you had and will never sin, then you would not need Christ, but you have sinned therefore Christ saves you.  You should still strive for the sinless life.


That makes it sound like Jesus just died for my past sins and that now it's up to me to quit sinning to gain salvation. Or at least loose it over and over again and regain it over and over again by constantly re-repenting. Then hoping I don't die between the re-repenting times.

That at some point one does loose their salvation because we all still sin and therefore must keep on re-repenting to regain said salvation.

It just sounds like a terrible nightmare of a religious rollercoaster to have to go through life with that mindset. To me that is. I'm glad that it gives you relief or happiness to live like that.

It's something that I don't see in scripture or that I envision my God requesting of me or that my Lord would want me to have to do.
Why would God send us His only Son to die on a cross if he wanted me to continue to wonder it His Son accomplished the mission that his Father sent him to do?

I don't see discipleship as being a part of Salvation. The Law and the Gospel are two different things.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> In other words assurance is the offer and only the offer?


According to Holy Scripture and the Church


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I understand the striving part. What I don't understand is the prerequisite of doing it to buy my salvation. If I could stop sinning to gain salvation, I would not have needed a Savior.


No one says you are buying your salvation.  If there had been no sin there would be nothing to save you from but sin did happen, sin does happen, God knows that and sent a redeemer.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> According to Holy Scripture and the Church


You can read John 3:16 and get no assurance that God gave His Son a mission to do that he did accomplish?


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> That makes it sound like Jesus just died for my past sins and that now it's up to me to quit sinning to gain salvation. Or at least loose it over and over again and regain it over and over again by constantly re-repenting. Then hoping I don't die between the re-repenting times.
> 
> That at some point one does loose their salvation because we all still sin and therefore must keep on re-repenting to regain said salvation.
> 
> ...


I would recommend you not test it by murdering someone, then stepping in ront of a moving bus.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> No one says you are buying your salvation.  If there had been no sin there would be nothing to save you from but sin did happen, sin does happen, God knows that and sent a redeemer.


Again, what is a Redeemer who didn't redeem? Why doesn't God just forgive us of our sins without a Redeemer? Why would God kill his only Son as a Redeemer if the redemption is useless?

What I'm getting at is what is the part of Lordship "Salvation" if it isn't needed to "buy" salvation. If in fact we did and do have a Redeemer who redeemed our sins with blood?


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## gemcgrew (Sep 3, 2020)

hummerpoo said:


> Have I missed, in the opinions rendered in this thread, the effect of Devine Omnipotence?


Puppets were covered in post #30.


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's something that I don't see in scripture or that I envision my God requesting of me or that my Lord would want me to have to do.
> Why would God send us His only Son to die on a cross if he wanted me to continue to wonder it His Son accomplished the mission that his Father sent him to do?


You keep changing the question.  Christ accomplished his mission, he is Christus Victor, the question is do we believe that it is finished and live accordingly.

https://forum.gon.com/threads/the-lordship-salvation-controversy.975459/post-12439283


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Why can't Lordship or Discipleship be something we do after salvation that isn't a part of actually being the Salvation? It just seems to me that it can't in no way be a part of our redemption process for Salvation.


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## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Again, what is a Redeemer who didn't redeem? Why doesn't God just forgive us of our sins without a Redeemer? Why would God kill his only Son as a Redeemer if the redemption is useless?





Artfuldodger said:


> Again, what is a Redeemer who didn't redeem? Why doesn't God just forgive us of our sins without a Redeemer? Why would God kill his only Son as a Redeemer if the redemption is useless?
> 
> What I'm getting at is what is the part of Lordship "Salvation" if it isn't needed to "buy" salvation. If in fact we did and do have a Redeemer who redeemed our sins with blood?


"Lordship Salvation" is some new nonsense argued by Calvinist and Arminians of which I am neither. 

"God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself......"

Read my post #24.


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## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Puppets were covered in post #30.


yes they were covered in the form of a question and have as yet gone unanswered.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> "Lordship Salvation" is some new nonsense argued by Calvinist and Arminians of which I am neither.
> 
> "God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself......"
> 
> Read my post #24.


What did you mean in post 67 in response to David Platt's video?
"Don't want to get off topic, but he is right.  Welcome to post Reformation Christianity."

Why is David Platt right in the video?

What is it about your belief in repentance of sin for salvation that is different from "Lordship Salvation's" repentance of sin for salvation?

I'm trying to figure out why your beliefs are scriptural but Lordship Salvation is new nonsense?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 3, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Puppets were covered in post #30.


Ah yes, to bow in awe filled reverent submission to Devine Omnipotence (scripturally "fear of God") is, from the Anthropocentric view called puppetry.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2020)

an·thro·po·cen·tric


_adjective_


regarding humankind as the central or most important element of existence, especially as opposed to God or animals.


( There, I'm in this centipede tread again.)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

I believe a child of God/elect goes through life and although they are saved, they may not always have Jesus as lord. That doesn't mean he isn't their savior.  It really doesn't mean Jesus isn't Lord, just that at some times in ones life they may not act like he is their Lord.

"All of us know the tragic story of David and his sins. Was David saved? Yes, he was. Was Jesus Lord of his life? Of course not. Look at Psalm 51:12a. David said, _“Restore unto me the joy of my salvation.” _*He *did not say, “Restore unto me Thy salvation.” He was saved, but he was away from God. Jesus was not Lord of his life. If Lordship salvation were true, then David lost his salvation when he ceased to make Jesus Lord of his life."

https://www.independentbaptist.com/10-reasons-lordship-salvation-is-not-biblical/


----------



## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I think if a man is saved his life will be different afterward.
> 
> Do you think that because a murderer says 'I don't think I will hack anyone else to death' , that he has repented from murdering others?
> 
> Do you think you have to be baptized to be saved?


Negative on the baptism.  It's a work.

I believe that a serial killer or practicing homosexual can go to heaven.

I also believe that a righteous living, praying, generous, kind-hearted, church-going preacher or deacon can go straight to Hades.

A person's behavior has nothing to do with his eternal destination.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Somehow we got off on salvation which is from grace.



Actually we didn't because it was not the topic.  Salvation is by grace and grace alone which is a completely separate subject. Lordship doctrine would argue that grace, although freely given, is unattainable unless Christ is made Lord in my life.  I'm deluded if I think I can say something along the lines of Jesus is (my) Lord, not mean it and expect to receive grace because of a few words I uttered which had not one iota of intent or will behind them.  In that instance I'm lying to Christ and believing my own lie which is the definition of self-delusion.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Negative on the baptism.  It's a work.
> 
> I believe that a serial killer or practicing homosexual can go to heaven.
> 
> ...



If baptism is necessary, why does the Bible say to repent and be baptisted, and you will be saved?

I understand now that you believe that one can be saved, live like he wants to, sinning with every breath, and as long as he said the magic words," I changed my mind about Jesus" he will live forever in Heaven.  

I would totally disagree with all those assumptions.


----------



## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No, actually it doesn't.  I've read the book you suggested by John McArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, twice and am reading it a third time.  Let me be blunt.  It doesn't say what you have asserted.  If you are certain it does, it's as simple as posting the quote and annotating it so I can find it in my copies (digital or paper would be fine.)
> 
> I've asked you to clarify your stance. You haven't, only becoming more and more defensive.  As far as disproving what you said, You said it.  It's generally accepted practice throughout the entire world that when one makes an assertion the burden is on that person  to defend it, not everyone else to disprove it.  That's just how it works in a rational conversation.  However, anyone even vaguely familiar with the Bible will recognize your statements :
> 
> ...


Read my posts and you will see my stance.  I don't see how I could be any more clear. 

Also, I never "suggested" The Gospel According to Jesus.  I just mentioned John MacArthur's name.

Speaking of MacArthur, here are some quotes, straight from the horse's mouth:

*"The true gospel is a call to self-denial. It is not a call to self-fulfillment".

"The Greek word translated 'belief' is not referring merely to intellectual attainment or mental acquiescence but a wholehearted acceptance of everything that is implied in the claims of Christ. You need to believe that Jesus is God and that He died for your sins, committing your whole life to Him in sacrifice and serving Him as Lord." (Assurance of Victory--1 John 5, Moody Press, p.12).

"Submission to the will of God, to Christ’s lordship, and to the guiding of the Spirit is an essential, not an optional, part of saving faith" (EPHESIANS, p. 249).

"Saving faith is a placing of oneself totally in submission to the Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 1-8, p. 205).

"Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exercise. It comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's the fruit of actions, not intentions.  There's no room for passive spectators:  words without actions are empty and futile...The life we live, not the words we speak, determines our eternal destiny" (Hard to Believe, p. 93).  *

Yet the same man says that salvation is by grace, which means "unmerited favor". Yet you accuse me of being a hypocrite? 

"Lordship salvation" and salvation by grace is like trying to get a square peg into a round hole, but I think you already knew that.

How good do you, personally, think you have to be to get to heaven?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

Madman said:


> I believe it matters a lot.  If your salvation is assured after some prayer, some anything, and nothing can remove it, then you get some interesting beliefs.  As we have seen here.



That may be the most understated assessment I have ever seen you make.


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## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

gordon 2 said:


> an·thro·po·cen·tric
> 
> 
> _adjective_
> ...


Get out while there is still time!!!


----------



## Madman (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That may be the most understated assessment I have ever seen you make.


My wife is my better angel, she is trying to take the edge off me.
Her claim is, in matters of doctrine I have no grace and take no prisioners.
I beleive Ravi Zacharias said something like, "if you want a man to smell the rose, do not first cut off his nose".


----------



## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> If baptism is necessary, why does the Bible say to repent and be baptisted, and you will be saved?
> 
> I understand now that you believe that one can be saved, live like he wants to, sinning with every breath, and as long as he said the magic words," I changed my mind about Jesus" he will live forever in Heaven.
> 
> I would totally disagree with all those assumptions.


Paul said he was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel. Baptism is not part of the gospel.

Correct, I believe that a Christian can live as he pleases and still go to heaven. That's what salvation by grace means. That doesn't mean he won't live with the consequences of a disobedient life while on earth.

You believe that good people go to heaven bad people go to h*ll.  You're not alone in that regard. 99% of the world believes the same thing.

Will you list everything that a person has to do to be saved?


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## gemcgrew (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Will you list everything that a person has to do to be saved?


It is finished. Salvation is of the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Actually we didn't because it was not the topic.  Salvation is by grace and grace alone which is a completely separate subject. Lordship doctrine would argue that grace, although freely given, is unattainable unless Christ is made Lord in my life.  I'm deluded if I think I can say something along the lines of Jesus is (my) Lord, not mean it and expect to receive grace because of a few words I uttered which had not one iota of intent or will behind them.  In that instance I'm lying to Christ and believing my own lie which is the definition of self-delusion.


I don't think your salvation is based on a few words you uttered or your discipleship. Your discipleship is based on your salvation.

I will admit it's a bit of an enigma. David and Noah are a bit of an enigma. Come to think of it so is unwarranted grace. Christ saving someone like David who keeps on sinning?

At what threshold does God turn his back on one of his children?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Solomon, Peter, and Paul.


----------



## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> At what threshold does God turn his back on one of his children?


Never. We've got his word on it.  Jesus said, "He who believes (one condition) in me has (present tense) everlasting life.  He was either telling the truth or he wasn't.  Everlasting life lasts forever.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Maybe it's the different ways we see the Covenants from God with man. Perhaps some are conditional and some are unconditional.

Is the covenant of salvation conditional?


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Paul said he was not sent to baptize, but to preach the gospel. Baptism is not part of the gospel.
> 
> Correct, I believe that a Christian can live as he pleases and still go to heaven. That's what salvation by grace means. That doesn't mean he won't live with the consequences of a disobedient life while on earth.
> 
> ...



I do not believe that good people automatically go to heaven, and bad people to he-double hockey sticks.  

The Bible says that you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of your sins.  
To me, that means that you believe that Jesus became a man, died, was resurrected on the 3rd day, and lives today at the right hand of God.  He became the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and His blood is our atonement those sins.

Repenting means to that you turn from your sins, renouncing the life you lived previously, and strive to become more and more like Jesus.

Believing is much more that voicing the opinion that you think Jesus is the way to be saved.  Believing... truly believing requires an action from the believer.

If I said Furtaker, I have 100,000 dollars that I am going to give you as soon as you show up at my house, you would probably leave your house right now, and speed the entire way here to get that money, if you believed me.   But you and I both know that you are not even gonna get out of your recliner because you don't believe it.

Same thing with believing that Jesus is Lord and Christ.  If you really believe, you will have some action in your life that shows that you believe.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> IChrist saving someone like David who keeps on sinning?
> 
> At what threshold does God turn his back on one of his children?



David didn't live under the same covenant that we do.  Davids salvation was all based on obeying the law of Moses.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I do not believe that good people automatically go to heaven, and bad people to he-double hockey sticks.
> 
> The Bible says that you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of your sins.
> To me, that means that you believe that Jesus became a man, died, was resurrected on the 3rd day, and lives today at the right hand of God.  He became the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and His blood is our atonement those sins.
> ...


Why does 65% of the population in the US have the assurance that they are Christians? They also believe they get their morality from being a Christian.
What must they do to have a belief in God and that Jesus died for their sins  to have Salvation?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> David didn't live under the same covenant that we do.  Davids salvation was all based on obeying the law of Moses.



I thought David's salvation was based on his belief in Jesus?


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought David's salvation was based on his belief in Jesus?



David never even heard the name Jesus


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## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I do not believe that good people automatically go to heaven, and bad people to he-double hockey sticks.
> 
> The Bible says that you must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and repent of your sins.
> To me, that means that you believe that Jesus became a man, died, was resurrected on the 3rd day, and lives today at the right hand of God.  He became the perfect sacrifice for our sins, and His blood is our atonement those sins.
> ...


The phrase "repent of your sins" for salvation or eternal life is not found once in the Bible.

If a preacher, or whoever for that matter, tells a lost man to turn from his sins for salvation, he has a responsibility to list every sin that he must turn from.  The lost man may not know what they are.  His eternal destination depends on it.

Then the lost man's mind is filled with a multitude of questions.  How long does he have to stop his sins?  Which ones?  Only the big, bad ones?  What if he stops them for a little while and goes back to doing them?  When does God save him?  When he promises to stop them or after he's been a good boy for a year?  How does he have any power to turn from his sins when he doesn't even have the Holy Spirit inside of him yet?

Who is sinless among us?

Turning from sins for salvation means, "I've gotta do something.  Jesus' death isn't quite enough.  I've gotta be good."

The word "believe" in the Bible means the same thing as it does in English.  For some reason folks tend to leave their common sense at the door when they open the Bible and the word "believe" suddenly means "obey".  Who woulda thunk it?

The Bible says you can know you have eternal life.  How is assurance possible with the "lordship" message?

God is not the author of confusion but "lordship salvation" sure does teach a confusing message.


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## Ray357 (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The  *"lordship salvation" controversy* (also "*Lordship Controversy*") is a theological dispute regarding key soteriological questions within Evangelical Christianity, involving some non-denominational and Evangelical churches in North America at least since the 1980s. The dispute spawned several books, pamphlets, and conferences. According to one website advocating Lordship Salvation, "the doctrine of Lordship salvation teaches that submitting to Christ as Lord goes hand-in-hand with trusting in Christ as Savior. Lordship salvation is the opposite of what is sometimes called easy-believism or the teaching that salvation comes through an acknowledgement of a certain set of facts. Another website critical of it, defines it similarly, however: "As defined by its own advocates, Lordship Salvation could more properly be called "Commitment Salvation," "Surrender Salvation," "Slaveship Salvation," "Servantship Salvation," or "Submission Salvation" since in actuality the debate is not over the Lordship of Christ, but the response of a person to the gospel and the conditions which must be met for salvation.
> 
> Thoughts?


I have almost become a Calvinist so I definitely adhere to the Doctrine of Lordship Salvation. I actually probably am a Calvinist but just dont want to admit it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

There's been hay made that Lordship is tantamount to works.  This is what John McArthur says in his book the Gospel According to Jesus  Pg.17.

“Long before The Gospel According to Jesus was first published, it was popular in certain circles to exclude any mention of Jesus’ lordship from the gospel message. The idea, apparently, was that declaring Jesus’ lordship was tantamount to preaching works — because lordship implicitly demands obedience, and obedience per se was automatically portrayed as a work. Some argued that even to encourage an attitude of obedience (like the simple, submissive heart of the thief on the cross or Zaccheus’s intention to make restitution) was to preach a works-based religion. Ostensibly trying to keep the gospel as untainted as possible from works-religion, some evangelical leaders became insistent that no gospel appeal to unbelievers ever ought to include the truth that Jesus is Lord of all. Unconverted sinners were not to be urged to repent. The cost of discipleship; the need to hate one’s own sin; Christ’s call to self-denial; His command to follow Him; and (especially) every mention of submission to Him as Lord were systematically expunged from the message Christians proclaimed to unbelievers. Sanctification became wholly optional....In the minds and methodologies of most evangelicals, the entire gospel was finally reduced to one easy idea: that Jesus is a kind Savior who patiently waits for sinners to “accept” Him (or invite Him into their hearts), and that He offers eternal life — no strings attached — in exchange for anyone’s decision to do so."


He concludes the thought and the purpose of the book with this:

“The Gospel According to Jesus made one simple (and to my mind undeniable) point: Jesus proclaimed no such message. The faith He called sinners to was a repentant, submissive surrender to the truth — including the truth of His lordship.”

Excerpt From: John F. MacArthur. “The Gospel According to Jesus.” Apple Books. https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-gospel-according-to-jesus/id387708896Excerpt


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## Ray357 (Sep 3, 2020)

https://www.gracechurch.org/about/distinctives/lordship-salvation


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> The phrase "repent of your sins" for salvation or eternal life is not found once in the Bible.



I'm gonna regret this, but I have to ask, "Have you ever actually read the Bible or are you just repeating what you were told?  Honestly????


----------



## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm gonna regret this, but I have to ask, "Have you ever actually read the Bible or are you just repeating what you were told?  Honestly????


Give me one verse where the Bible says to "repent of your sins" or stop your sinning for eternal life. Have you actually ever read the Bible?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> The phrase "repent of your sins" for salvation or eternal life is not found once in the Bible.



maybe those exact words in that exact order don't appear in the Bible, but that thought process is certainly expressed.

Seems to me that Jesus told several people to 'go and sin no more'.  Is that a salvation of works?

Acts 2:38 is one of the first invitations publicly proclaimed after Jesus returned to heaven.  Peter says "“Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins."

If Peter didn't mean for them to repent of their sins, what did he want them to repent of?


----------



## furtaker (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> maybe those exact words in that exact order don't appear in the Bible, but that thought process is certainly expressed.
> 
> Seems to me that Jesus told several people to 'go and sin no more'.  Is that a salvation of works?
> 
> ...


The word "repent" doesn't mean to turn from sin. It means to change the mind.

The Bible never says that a person has to stop his sins to be saved. Not once.

When Jesus said "Go and sin no more", did he say the person was going to h*ll if he sinned again?

Do you still sin? I do.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> https://www.gracechurch.org/about/distinctives/lordship-salvation



An excellent read.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> The word "repent" doesn't mean to turn from sin.



Yeah, uhh forget what I asked earlier.  I won't bother with reason in someone who has no respect for truth.  I hope you wake up before it's too late.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> The word "repent" doesn't mean to turn from sin. It means to change the mind.
> 
> The Bible never says that a person has to stop his sins to be saved. Not once.
> 
> ...



you and I are never going to agree on exactly what  repent means.  It means much, much more that just changing your mind.

If you believe that you can live your life somewhere to the left of Whoopie and still make it into heaven, go for it.  

I don't believe you can.  If I choose to restrict my life to trying to closer model Christ, why is that a burden to you?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> https://www.gracechurch.org/about/distinctives/lordship-salvation


We teach that salvation is wholly of God by grace on the basis of the redemption of Jesus Christ.

We teach that regeneration is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit.

We teach that election is the act of God by which, before the foundation of the world.

We teach that justification before God is an act of God.

He chose in Christ those whom He graciously regenerates, saves, and sanctifies.

We teach that all the redeemed, once saved, are kept by God’s power and are thus secure in Christ forever.

I'm not sure how Lordship Salvation can be a part of the same Church who believes the above other than the discipleship itself being from God in the forms of fruit.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> maybe those exact words in that exact order don't appear in the Bible, but that thought process is certainly expressed.
> 
> Seems to me that Jesus told several people to 'go and sin no more'.  Is that a salvation of works?
> 
> ...



Does Acts 2:38 say repent of your sin or repent from thinking you can save yourself?

When Jesus said "go and sin no more" was that a prerequisite for salvation?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you and I are never going to agree on exactly what  repent means.  It means much, much more that just changing your mind.
> 
> If you believe that you can live your life somewhere to the left of Whoopie and still make it into heaven, go for it.
> 
> I don't believe you can.  If I choose to restrict my life to trying to closer model Christ, why is that a burden to you?


It's not a burden to me but it could be a burden to someone who first believes. When I was saved the preacher didn't say "and now you must go and sin no more." If he did that would have freaked me out.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

When do you let the new believer in on the other part of what is required?  Maybe let them know before they thought believing was enough.


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## Ray357 (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> We teach that salvation is wholly of God by grace on the basis of the redemption of Jesus Christ.
> 
> We teach that regeneration is a supernatural work of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> ...


J.M. is the father of the modern doctrine of L.S. 
L S. and Calvinism harmonize perfectly.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Sep 3, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Give me one verse where the Bible says to "repent of your sins" or stop your sinning for eternal life. Have you actually ever read the Bible?



Take your pick
Acts 2:38
Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Isaiah 30:15
For thus the Lord God, the Holy One of Israel, has said, “In repentance and rest you will be saved, In quietness and trust is your strength.” But you were not willing,

Ezekiel 18:32
For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone who dies,” declares the Lord God. “Therefore, repent and live.”

Matthew 3:2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Matthew 11:20
Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent.

Luke 3:8 Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

uke 5:32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”

Luke 15:7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

Acts 11:18
When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.

Acts 26:20
but kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropriate to repentance.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.

You might say it's a theme.  

Just out of curiosity where did you come to believe as you do, what church?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's not a burden to me but it could be a burden to someone who first believes. When I was saved the preacher didn't say "and now you must go and sin no more." If he did that would have freaked me out.



I don't think I have ever said that you must never sin again.  If you can find where I said that, please let me know, and I will correct it. 

I do know that I said that I have sinned since I was saved.  Many times.  Sometimes knowingly, sometimes from ignorance, but I have sinned a lot.  But this one thing I know, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.... 1Jhn, 1:19

What I tried to convey in my post is that I don't believe a saved person will continue to live a changed life, and will try to model Christ day by day.  Sure we are gonna screw up, but hopefully a little less tomorrow, and a little less the day after tomorrow, so that in time, the life we live doesn't appear anything like the life we lived before we were saved.

Some sects call this sanctification.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Luke 24:46:47
And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

As Dr. Ryrie says of this verse, “Clearly, repentance for the forgiveness of sins is connected to the death and resurrection of Christ.” The repentance comes out of the recognition of one’s sin, but the object of repentance is the person and work of Christ, or faith in Christ.

The Greek word for “repent” is _metanoia_ (noun) or _metanoeo_ (verb). It basically means a change of mind and the context must determine what is involved in that change of mind. In passages where salvation is in view it is equivalent to _believe_ or _trust in_ and involves a change of mind about any form of self-trust in human works, good deeds, religious tradition, etc. followed by a trust in the finished work of Christ which alone has the power to save us. It means a turning from self-trust to trust in Christ.


Repentance is definitely needed for salvation  but not Repentance of sin.

https://bible.org/question/repentance-necessary-salvation

repentance μετάνοιαν
(metanoian) 3341: change of mind, repentancefrom metanoeó


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Luke 24:46:47
> And He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.
> 
> As Dr. Ryrie says of this verse, “Clearly, repentance for the forgiveness of sins is connected to the death and resurrection of Christ.” The repentance comes out of the recognition of one’s sin, but the object of repentance is the person and work of Christ, or faith in Christ.
> ...



then what are they to repent from?

Why is forgiveness needed?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't think I have ever said that you must never sin again.  If you can find where I said that, please let me know, and I will correct it.
> 
> I do know that I said that I have sinned since I was saved.  Many times.  Sometimes knowingly, sometimes from ignorance, but I have sinned a lot.  But this one thing I know, He is faithful and just to forgive us of our sins, and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.... 1Jhn, 1:19
> 
> ...


Yet you keep saying that one must repent from sin. That Jesus said go and sin no more.

If  now you say we can and do still sin, that isn't really repenting from sin for salvation. That's more or less, try not to sin for salvation That's a big difference.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> then what are they to repent from?
> 
> Why is forgiveness needed?


From thinking they can save themselves. Weren't most of them Jews?

* John never once uses the word repent, not once*. If repentance, when used in connection with eternal salvation, is a separate or distinct requirement from faith in Christ, then John does not give the whole gospel.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Art, when you can explain to me how you can repent for something that will happen in the future, then maybe I will be able to follow some of the rabbit trails you run down.

The repentance is for sins I have committed in the past.  I find it impossible to be repentant for things I haven't done, or may never do in the future.

I do find it reasonable to think that I can repent daily for the sins I have committed that day.  

If you don't believe that you must repent from your sins, then you must have a different understanding of the Bible and repentance than I have.  I can't understand what I am to repent of if it isn't the sins I have committed in the past.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

In Acts the Jews had to change their mind about Jesus to get spiritual salvation and had to get physically baptized to gain physical salvation in the 70AD destruction.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> From thinking they can save themselves. Weren't most of them Jews?



can you provide a reference where jewish beliefs pointed to a way to save oneself?

Until Jesus came on the scene, and even up until today, jews believed that strict adherence to the Mosaic law was the only way for salvation.  Devote jews still believe that today.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Art, when you can explain to me how you can repent for something that will happen in the future, then maybe I will be able to follow some of the rabbit trails you run down.
> 
> The repentance is for sins I have committed in the past.  I find it impossible to be repentant for things I haven't done, or may never do in the future.
> 
> ...


 Maybe there is more than one type of repentance. Some for spiritual salvation and some for physical salvation.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> In Acts the Jews had to change their mind about Jesus to get spiritual salvation and had to get physically baptized to gain physical salvation in the 70AD destruction.



ok... good grief.  

Do you REALLY believe that Peter was telling them to be baptized to be saved from something that was gonna happen 45 years later, and no one knew when it was coming?

I think you need to go read Acts 2 again, look at the context of the message, and reconsider what Peter was telling the people to repent of.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> can you provide a reference where jewish beliefs pointed to a way to save oneself?
> 
> Until Jesus came on the scene, and even up until today, jews believed that strict adherence to the Mosaic law was the only way for salvation.  Devote jews still believe that today.


That is what I mean by saving themsleves. They thought following the Law would save them when it never could. They had to believe in the future saviour even before he physically came to the earth.

They had to repent or abandon thinking that Law keeping could offer Salvation and begin believing that Jesus died for their sins.

That would be hard for a Jew to do. Evidently it's even hard for some Gentiles to believe as well.

Of David. A psalm. The LORD says to my lord: "Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet."


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> That is what I mean by saving themsleves. They thought following the Law would save them when it never could.



But the Mosaic law could save them.  It was God's plan of salvation to have imperfect sacrifices for a period of time that were a temporary payment for the past sins of the people.  Yes, it was hard to follow. Yes, the law was strict.  But there were hundreds of thousands of people that lived under that law, and a lot of them were imputed righteousness because of their obeying the law.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

or do you believe that God lied to the jews when he gave them a path for forgiveness of sins?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Art, when you can explain to me how you can repent for something that will happen in the future, then maybe I will be able to follow some of the rabbit trails you run down.
> 
> The repentance is for sins I have committed in the past.  I find it impossible to be repentant for things I haven't done, or may never do in the future.
> 
> ...


And you think all of those people in Acts quit sinning? Just like all the Christians in Europe or the US or the world ever have?
What they repented from was idols, false gods, or either keeping the Law to save  themselves. 

It's what every Christian in the world has repented of. That is why we can say the US got it's morals from Christianity.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> But the Mosaic law could save them.  It was God's plan of salvation to have imperfect sacrifices for a period of time that were a temporary payment for the past sins of the people.  Yes, it was hard to follow. Yes, the law was strict.  But there were hundreds of thousands of people that lived under that law, and a lot of them were imputed righteousness because of their obeying the law.


Even if the Law could or did, it quit when Christ died on the Cross. At that time, the Jews had to repent and follow Jesus. They couldn't repent and follow the Law any longer. I think they could try that way but it was mentioned by someone in the Bible that it's really hard to gain salvation that way.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> And you think all of those people in Acts quit sinning?



Nope, just like I have never quit sinning, but I try not to sin.



> What they repented from was idols, false gods, or either the Law saving themselves.



and what were those?

Idols = sin
False gods = sin


----------



## Ray357 (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> And you think all of those people in Acts quit sinning? Just like all the Christians in Europe or the US or the world ever have?
> What they repented from was idols, false gods, or either keeping the Law to save  themselves.
> 
> It's what every Christian in the world has repented of. That is why we can say the US got it's morals from Christianity.


Lordship salvation does not require stopping sinning. It requires submission to The Lordship of Christ. One who is in submission to Him will not be dominated by sin. While we do fail and sin, we are not dominated by sin nor are we practitioners of habitual sin. 
Lordship Salvation never suggests perfection. It, more than anything, points out the faults of the easy believerism practices we see in the modern churches.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Nope, just like I have never quit sinning, but I try not to sin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



True but did man have to quit having lust to gain salvation? Of course one would have to abandon a belief in a false God and change his mind about Jesus. 
The group in Romans 1 "knew" God. They abandoned the worship of God for that of idols. For that God gave them a reprobate mind. 

He didn't do that because they had lust in their hearts.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> It, more than anything, points out the faults of the easy believerism practices we see in the modern churches.



some call it cheap grace.  This thought process of living anyway I want cause I said the magic words and I am going to heaven, is going to leave a lot of people found wanting when we all stand before Christ to be judged.

Jesus himself told us to take up our cross and follow him.  What does he mean by cross?  It was a method of disgraceful way of dying.  It was a punishment and a way of humiliating the person.

Why would Jesus tell us to take up certain death, punishment and humiliating situations if our salvation is only a group of magic words, spoken once in our lives?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> Lordship salvation does not require stopping sinning. It requires submission to The Lordship of Christ. One who is in submission to Him will not be dominated by sin. While we do fail and sin, we are not dominated by sin nor are we practitioners of habitual sin.
> Lordship Salvation never suggests perfection. It, more than anything, points out the faults of the easy believerism practices we see in the modern churches.


Plus it's not a requirement for salvation but a fruit of salvation. That's a big difference than repenting of sin for salvation. I have no problem with Lordship as a result of salvation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 3, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> some call it cheap grace.  This thought process of living anyway I want cause I said the magic words and I am going to heaven, is going to leave a lot of people found wanting when we all stand before Christ to be judged.
> 
> Jesus himself told us to take up our cross and follow him.  What does he mean by cross?  It was a method of disgraceful way of dying.  It was a punishment and a way of humiliating the person.
> 
> Why would Jesus tell us to take up certain death, punishment and humiliating situations if our salvation is only a group of magic words, spoken once in our lives?


Plus it's not the words that save. That would be easy lol. It's God leading one to Christ that saves.

Easy Believism is as wrong as Lordship Salvation if it means salvation is by quoting words.
They are both equally wrong when it comes to how one gains salvation.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> True but did man have to quit having lust to gain salvation? Of course one would have to abandon a belief in a false God and change his mind about Jesus.
> The group in Romans 1 "knew" God. They abandoned the worship of God for that of idols. For that God gave them a reprobate mind.
> 
> He didn't do that because they had lust in their hearts.



Interesting.... 

they knew God.  What does that mean?  were they saved? or was it just head knowledge?

and this reprobate mind.... what does that mean?  did you know that in Heb 6:8, that same Greek word is translated as "worthless and near to being cursed"

in 1Cor 9:27, it is translated " disqualified"

Webster says if means beyond any hope of salvation.    

And this was after they knew God.  

Interesting


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 3, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's God leading one to Christ that saves.



Nope.  God has called many, and they have rejected Christ.  Being drawn to Christ is not what saves.  It is what you do after being drawn that ultimately saves.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> or do you believe that God lied to the jews when he gave them a path for forgiveness of sins?



I'm not a learned person about that path. What are some verses that say the Jews could gain eternal life by Law keeping  and not Jesus?
Can they still save themselves that way now?

I was trying to recall a verse that said they could but it would be harder than to just accept Jesus.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not a learned person about that path. What are some verses that say the Jews could gain eternal life by Law keeping  and not Jesus?
> Can they still save themselves that way now?
> 
> I was trying to recall a verse that said they could but it would be harder than to just accept Jesus.



Until the death of Jesus, it was the only way to gain salvation.  It was the plan that God had revealed to Moses, and the path to follow.

Since the perfect sacrifice has been offered, that is now the path to salvation.  I agree with your statement that it would be hard for a jew to reject the Mosaic law and follow Jesus.  One issue would be the pride that the jews held onto for centuries, thinking themselves better than the gentiles around them.  A lot of jews today still think this way, and believe us to be inferior to them.  Pride is a hard sin to overcome.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Nope.  God has called many, and they have rejected Christ.  Being drawn to Christ is not what saves.  It is what you do after being drawn that ultimately saves.


Well that explains why we differ on a lot about salvation being by grace from God and that it has to come from and through Jesus as being the only way.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

some of the jews in Jesus time even said that "We are Abraham's descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?" 
John 8:33

They had been slave for hundreds of years and yet they said they were never slaves to anyone.... pride.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well that explains why we differ on a lot about salvation being by grace from God and that it has to come from and through Jesus as being the only way.



I don't think so.  I believe we are saved by grace. and it is thru Christ. He is the only way. There is no other name by which man can be saved.

But I am also a believer in free will.  God may call, and Christ may offer, but it is up to us to accept.  God will not force salvation on anyone.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Until the death of Jesus, it was the only way to gain salvation.  It was the plan that God had revealed to Moses, and the path to follow.
> 
> Since the perfect sacrifice has been offered, that is now the path to salvation.  I agree with your statement that it would be hard for a jew to reject the Mosaic law and follow Jesus.  One issue would be the pride that the jews held onto for centuries, thinking themselves better than the gentiles around them.  A lot of jews today still think this way, and believe us to be inferior to them.  Pride is a hard sin to overcome.


What about before Mosiac Law? I thought it was Abraham's faith in God that saved him, not his Law keeping ability?

What verse states it was God's way to eternal life? Not salvation which could be physical or salvation for physical Israel but what is a verse that says "Law Keepin" offers someone eternal life?

Does Law Keepin' still offer salvation to Jews?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about before Mosiac Law? I thought it was Abraham's faith in God that saved him, not his Law keeping ability?
> 
> What verse states it was God's way to eternal life? Not salvation which could be physical or salvation for physical Israel but what is a verse that says "Law Keepin" offers someone eternal life?



Sacrifices were offered in Gen 2, when God killed an animal and gave the skins to Adam and Eve to cover themselves.  Sacrifice for forgiveness was the reason that Cain killed Able.  Because Able offered the correct sacrifice to God, a blood sacrifice.  Cain offered an inferior offering and it was rejected by God.  Cain became jealous, and killed his brother in the field.

How do you think that Adam, Eve, Cain and Able learned to sacrifice an animal, and why the offering of Cain was rejected as unsuitable?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Interesting....
> 
> they knew God.  What does that mean?  were they saved? or was it just head knowledge?
> 
> ...


I think it was a group of Jews. They "exchanged" the worship of God for that of idols that looked like animals. Psalms mentions the Jews doing this.
God doesn't go around doing this to every non believer in the whole world. If he did, they could never become Christians. This group knew God and exchanged the worship of God for that of idols.
Creation is Israel!

God didn't turn the Native Americans over to a reprobate mind for their idol worship or believing in a false God. If they knew God by nature then they would have "exchanged" the worship of the God of Abraham as well.  Thus God would have turned them over too.


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Gen 15:5 and following
5 And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 7 The LORD also told him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”… 

This was where the Mosaic law began.  With Abram believing what God told him.  Soon afterward, he circumcised every male in his household as a symbol of this covenant with God.  The reason we call it the Mosaic law is that Moses was the one who codified the laws,and wrote them down.  

Verse 7 tells us that God and Abram had an ongoing relationship even before this appearance in the desert.  This appearance is a Christophany, where it is taught that Jesus actually appeared to Abram and walked with him.  

I don't believe this could actually be a theophany, or seeing God the Father, because scripture tells us that no man has seen God.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Sacrifices were offered in Gen 2, when God killed an animal and gave the skins to Adam and Eve to cover themselves.  Sacrifice for forgiveness was the reason that Cain killed Able.  Because Able offered the correct sacrifice to God, a blood sacrifice.  Cain offered an inferior offering and it was rejected by God.  Cain became jealous, and killed his brother in the field.
> 
> How do you think that Adam, Eve, Cain and Able learned to sacrifice an animal, and why the offering of Cain was rejected as unsuitable?


I'm not sure those animal sacrifices granted them eternal life. 

If the Mosaic Law promised eternal life based on obedience to the Law, the entire message of Christianity would be invalidated.

Christ was slain before the world was created. The Word was with God. The plan was already in place.  There never has been any other way.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Gen 15:5 and following
> 5 And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.” 6 Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness. 7 The LORD also told him, “I am the LORD, who brought you out of Ur of the Chaldeans to give you this land to possess.”…
> 
> This was where the Mosaic law began.  With Abram believing what God told him.  Soon afterward, he circumcised every male in his household as a symbol of this covenant with God.  The reason we call it the Mosaic law is that Moses was the one who codified the laws,and wrote them down.
> ...


Then it was Abraham's faith in God, through Christ, that granted him eternal life. Not his Law keeping ability  or animal sacrifices.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think it was a group of Jews. They "exchanged" the worship of God for that of idols that looked like animals. Psalms mentions the Jews doing this.
> God doesn't go around doing this to every non believer in the whole world. If he did, they could never become Christians. This group knew God and exchanged the worship of God for that of idols.
> Creation is Israel!
> 
> God didn't turn the Native Americans over to a reprobate mind for their idol worship or believing in a false God. If they knew God by nature then they would have "exchanged" the worship of the God of Abraham as well.  Thus God would have turned them over too.



Lets look at that scripture in context to see what was going on.

Romans 1:26 and following

*26* Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 

*27* In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. 

*28* Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved (KJV = reprobate) mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.


If you look at the scripture in context, it is plain that God gave them over to a reprobate, or unredeemable mind because of their lesbian and homosexual actions, and the fact that they rejected the knowledge of God


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## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure those animal sacrifices granted them eternal life.



Being born grants eternal life.  Salvation determines the living quarters after the physical body dies.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure those animal sacrifices granted them eternal life.
> 
> If the Mosaic Law promised eternal life based on obedience to the Law, the entire message of Christianity would be invalidated.
> 
> Christ was slain before the world was created. The Word was with God. The plan was already in place.  There never has been any other way.



the plan was in place, but the execution of the plan was in the future. Before His actual crucifiction, there was an alternate way to gain forgiveness of a man's sins. The reason scripture teaches that Christ was slain before the world was created, is that God works outside of time.  He is not limited to our concept of time and space.

We define time as seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, months, and years.  The basis for this concept is the rotation of the earth.  We see a sun coming up every morning, and going down every evening.  That is one day, 24 hours.  We count off the calendar and see the earth revolving around the Sun, to equal one year.  We can't exist without noticing this progression of time.

However God created the earth, sun, moon, and stars.  He is outside His creation. Just as a carpenter will build a house, but he isn't required to be contained within the house.  He can imagine the look of the house from before the time it is drawn on paper.  Before the concrete is poured for a foundation, he knows the layout of the home and possibly even the color of the roof, paint on the house, and finish on the kitchen cabinets.

God is not restrained by the time He created. He sees yesterday, just as He sees today.  And Tomorrow like he saw yesterday.  To see a year, a decade, a century, or a thousand years in the future or past is not an issue for God.  It is as plain as what just happened in your life.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> It is what you do after being drawn that ultimately saves.


Praise yourself.


----------



## Ray357 (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Plus it's not a requirement for salvation but a fruit of salvation. That's a big difference than repenting of sin for salvation. I have no problem with Lordship as a result of salvation.


Lordship is not a fruit of Salvation. Ot is a requirement for. How can you tell Jesus that you want fire insurance but you have no desire nor willingness to give your life to Him? Satan and the Demons believe He os The Son of God and that He rose from the Dead. They even Confessed Him with their mouths.


----------



## Israel (Sep 4, 2020)

Repentance is a gift, as are all things in and of Christ, that is then offered to God in display of reception.

It is less that "we change our minds" then we are gifted with the sight/perception/revelation of another _true mind. _This is what changes us.

When one considers some of the all that may be found in this declaration "Abraham believed God and it was counted to him as righteousness" there may come some appreciation of unfathomable grace.

Who "gives credit" to a thing for believing the only One who _does not lie_? What place would there be, is there, or could there be for any man to take such credit "to himself"? Yet...it is credited to him as rightness, righteousness. To this end Abraham was fashioned before Abraham even knew of Abraham.

A thing doing or being what it is made to do or be knows of no credit it can take to itself or for itself.

It is not as though Jesus Christ were unaware of something very much wanting to "take" a credit to itself, and/or to take advantage of man in that through its influence. And he knew how temptation to think "more highly of ourselves than we ought" would be a stumbling for us. And then for others.

He tells us of the attitude of what would be described as no less than a full grown disciple, "who has done _all he was commanded_".  He gives a something to see and consider.

Then, we discover He is giving us Himself.

O! but there is joy in salvation!
To begin to see and know the One who has fashioned us with, by, and in His purpose to know it. The only God of all gods that has ever desired man to know His joy.

The only God of all joy.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 4, 2020)

When gold or man or pie in the sky ideas get out of hand they fall to the ground and when we come onto the dead and resurrected body of Christ we come onto which will never fall, or the God of Abraham.

Now to be in the resurrected body is never being able to fall. The heavens and the earth unite into a life unknown and unheard prior to Christ and so we are saved from a life of falling.

Yet to ignoble sinners Christ comes ignoble to the very deeps of Hades to witness of himself on earth and in heaven ever rising and unable to fall and so inviting to all to a life unending and ever rising even from every episode of fall.

If Paul could say to his flock use me as an example even if he himself accounted himself ignoble, then it follows that the Lord leads by his examples and therefore our work is to keep this mindful  and so  the Lord kept in sight.

And so if we fall again unwillingly or willingly we venture into it, we are ever with consolation that our Lord searches every place. This certainty is our salvation: that the fall is not a condemnation, that unlike the ancient gods and lords that rose and fell, our Lord cannot fall.


"I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus."

We press on.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2020)

Israel said:


> Repentance is a gift, as are all things in and of Christ, that is then offered to God in display of reception.
> 
> It is less that "we change our minds" then we are gifted with the sight/perception/revelation of another _true mind. _This is what changes us.
> 
> ...





> It is less that "we change our minds" then we are gifted with the sight/perception/revelation of another _true mind. _This is what changes us.



Good points.
Good argument.
Thanks.


----------



## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2020)

Israel said:


> Repentance is a gift, as are all things in and of Christ, that is then offered to God in display of reception.
> 
> It is less that "we change our minds" then we are gifted with the sight/perception/revelation of another _true mind. _This is what changes us.
> 
> ...



Going over it a couple more times, I just had to highlight this:



> He tells us of the attitude of what would be described as no less than a full grown disciple, "who has done _all he was commanded_".  He gives a something to see and consider.
> 
> Then, we discover He is giving us Himself.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Sep 4, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Praise yourself.



so do you believe that we don't have free will to choose to follow?

Perhaps mankind is just a puppet on a string doing as commanded by the puppeteer?


----------



## gemcgrew (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> so do you believe that we don't have free will to choose to follow?


No free will.


NE GA Pappy said:


> Perhaps mankind is just a puppet on a string doing as commanded by the puppeteer?


Paul already addressed your rebellion.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Lets look at that scripture in context to see what was going on.
> 
> Romans 1:26 and following
> 
> ...


In context they "exchanged" the worship of God to the worship of idols first.

Psalm 106:20
They exchanged their Glory for the image of an ox that eats grass.

Then and for that reason,

God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies.

They "exchanged" the truth for a lie.

They, then after being turned over, "exchanged" heterosexual sex for homosexual sex.

Since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, He gave them up to a depraved mind.

They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed, and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, and malice. They are gossips,… slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant, and boastful. They invent new forms of evil; they disobey their parents.…They are senseless, faithless, heartless, merciless.…

God-haters? They became God-haters because they no longer acknowledged God.

This was not some group of pagan animal worshipers in Africa that suddenly started having homosexual sex and becoming disrespectful to their parents.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> Lordship is not a fruit of Salvation. Ot is a requirement for. How can you tell Jesus that you want fire insurance but you have no desire nor willingness to give your life to Him? Satan and the Demons believe He os The Son of God and that He rose from the Dead. They even Confessed Him with their mouths.


How can a person whose statement of faith includes Election have a statement of faith where he has to be a disciple in order to keep his salvation that was given to him and not oby works?

What method did God use to choose the Remnant of Jews in Romans 11?  He didn't elect them because of their lordship. He didn't elect them for their Law keeping abilities. He didn't elect them because they helped the poor. What grounds did God use to elect them as told by Paul?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

In relation to man not repenting, and thinking he can save himself, it's mostly related to the Jews. For some reason after Jesus came and went, the Jews still thought they could make themselves right with God by keeping the Law.

Romans 10:3
 For they don’t understand God’s way of making people right with himself. Refusing to accept God’s way, they cling to their own way of getting right with God by trying to keep the law.

Their own way was by Law Keeping. They would have to repent.

4 For Christ is the end of the law, to bring righteousness to everyone who believes.… 

  5For concerning the righteousness that is by the law, Moses writes: “The man who does these things will live by them.”… 

What does that mean as stated by Paul in verse 5?


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## Ray357 (Sep 4, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> How can a person whose statement of faith includes Election have a statement of faith where he has to be a disciple in order to keep his salvation that was given to him and not oby works?
> 
> What method did God use to choose the Remnant of Jews in Romans 11?  He didn't elect them because of their lordship. He didn't elect them for their Law keeping abilities. He didn't elect them because they helped the poor. What grounds did God use to elect them as told by Paul?


He elected them for His Glory. His elect are subject to His Lordship.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> He elected them for His Glory. His elect are subject to His Lordship.


Wouldn't that make one's Lordship a fruit of the Holy Spirit and not a free will requirement for salvation?
Lordship for salvation sounds very free willish. Lordship as a fruit of election sounds more fruitish.


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## furtaker (Sep 4, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Take your pick
> Acts 2:38
> Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> ...


Nice try, but you dodged the question again.

The word "repent" means to change your mind. Research the Greek word "metanoia" if you don't believe me.

I'll ask you again. Give me one instance in the Bible where a lost man is told to "repent of his sins" for eternal life.

Have you turned from your sins?

I said that "lordship salvation" teaches that a man must make Christ the Lord and Master of his life, and persevere in a generally good life of obedience until the end.

You said in post #60 that it doesn't teach that.

I gave you some quotes from John MacArthur in post #112 that proves that "lordship salvation" teaches exactly what I said it does. Will you please clarify?

Do you even know what you believe? I don't think you do.


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## furtaker (Sep 4, 2020)

@SemperFiDawg, the gospel of John is the only book in the NT that expressly says it is written to tell people how to have eternal life:

John 20:31 "but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name".

Yet the word "repent" does not occur one single time in the book. 

Why do you think John didn't include it? Did he just forget?


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## furtaker (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you and I are never going to agree on exactly what  repent means.  It means much, much more that just changing your mind.
> 
> If you believe that you can live your life somewhere to the left of Whoopie and still make it into heaven, go for it.
> 
> I don't believe you can.  If I choose to restrict my life to trying to closer model Christ, why is that a burden to you?


You are correct, we are light years opposite on this one.

You "choosing to restrict your life to trying to closer model Christ" is no burden to me whatsoever.

But what does concern me is that you are trying to walk the straight and narrow to get to heaven. The Bible says it's not of works.


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## furtaker (Sep 4, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Lordshippers believe that a Christian will live a generally good life full of obedience and good works up until the end.  If he doesn't, then he probably never really had salvation in the first place. Read John MacArthur's thoughts on the subject.





furtaker said:


> What am I wrong about?  Does lordship salvation not teach what I said it teaches?





SemperFiDawg said:


> No, actually it doesn't.  I've read the book you suggested by John McArthur, The Gospel According to Jesus, twice and am reading it a third time.  Let me be blunt.  It doesn't say what you have asserted.  If you are certain it does, it's as simple as posting the quote and annotating it so I can find it in my copies (digital or paper would be fine.)





furtaker said:


> Speaking of MacArthur, here are some quotes, straight from the horse's mouth:
> 
> *"The true gospel is a call to self-denial. It is not a call to self-fulfillment".*
> 
> ...





SemperFiDawg said:


> My friend.  You are mistaken about a great deal.  a very great deal.


Waiting on @SemperFiDawg to defend his position that "lordship salvation" does not teach that a person must make Christ the Lord and Master of his life and persevere in obedience in order to make it to heaven...


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Art, when you can explain to me how you can repent for something that will happen in the future, then maybe I will be able to follow some of the rabbit trails you run down.
> 
> The repentance is for sins I have committed in the past.  I find it impossible to be repentant for things I haven't done, or may never do in the future.
> 
> ...



Art's sole purpose on this board is leading people down rabbit trails with his feigned ignorance, hypothetical questions.  If it derails a thread, so much the better.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 4, 2020)

furtaker said:


> Waiting on @SemperFiDawg to defend his position that "lordship salvation" does not teach that a person must make Christ the Lord and Master of his life and persevere in obedience in order to make it to heaven...



Congrats.  You just made my ignore list.  I don't engage with intellectually dishonest people.  They have no moral bottom as you have affirmed in both thought and deed.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 4, 2020)

Ray357 said:


> Lordship salvation does not require stopping sinning. It requires submission to The Lordship of Christ. One who is in submission to Him will not be dominated by sin. While we do fail and sin, we are not dominated by sin nor are we practitioners of habitual sin.
> Lordship Salvation never suggests perfection. It, more than anything, points out the faults of the easy believerism practices we see in the modern churches.



...and this forum.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 4, 2020)

NE GA Pappy said:


> some call it cheap grace.  This thought process of living anyway I want cause I said the magic words and I am going to heaven, is going to leave a lot of people found wanting when we all stand before Christ to be judged.
> 
> Jesus himself told us to take up our cross and follow him.  What does he mean by cross?  It was a method of disgraceful way of dying.  It was a punishment and a way of humiliating the person.
> 
> Why would Jesus tell us to take up certain death, punishment and humiliating situations if our salvation is only a group of magic words, spoken once in our lives?



great post.  I would only add painful.


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## furtaker (Sep 4, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Congrats.  You just made my ignore list.  I don't engage with intellectually dishonest people.  They have no moral bottom as you have affirmed in both thought and deed.



You're the one who started this thread...and I asked you some questions and tried to have a discussion with you, you refused to answer nearly everything, and I'm dishonest and have "no moral bottom"...

I may disagree with NE GA Pappy, but at least he shared his thoughts with me and wasn't afraid to discuss the issue.  You were angry from the beginning.

Here's the translation of your last post: "Furtaker has made me eat crow by showing that my position makes absolutely no logical sense.  I have no comebacks so I'm putting him on ignore."  It's kind of pitiful, really.

Bye.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2020)

I don't hardly ever agree with anyone about religion or politics. I do enjoy hearing all sides of a topic. It make me think and/or question what I believe and why.
I find a lot of what I believe is a result of being raised that way.

I will add that not everything I present for discussion is what I believe 100% but do have a leaning in that direction.

I don't think that the answer is always one way or the other to the extreme but somewhere in between.

Not every aspect of scripture points to predestination or free will. Not everything points to Lordship Salvation nor Easy Believism.

The word "repent" can mean many things and there can be more than one type of salvation.

I would think that most of the members on this forum do like to see other avenues other than just their own. If not then they wouldn't post a thread and ask, what do y'all think about this?

Proverbs 27:17
As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

Thoughts?


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## gemcgrew (Sep 5, 2020)

Furtaker is one of the best friends you could possibly have. He is proclaiming good news to sinners. But it is hard to find a sinner.

The self-righteous are aplenty.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 5, 2020)

The more the believer grows in Truth and Knowledge, the greater the sinner he becomes.


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## furtaker (Sep 5, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Furtaker is one of the best friends you could possibly have. He is proclaiming good news to sinners. But it is hard to find a sinner.
> 
> The self-righteous are aplenty.


Thank you sir. I used to believe the lordship message as well until a preacher opened my eyes to the truth and I've been grateful for it ever since. The Bible suddenly fit together and made sense for the first time in my life. I'm passionate about this issue.

My position is not the popular one. "Easy believism" is a misnomer. If it's so easy to believe, how come more people don't believe this message? 99% of the world believes you have to be good to get to heaven. Very few people believe that you get there by simply believing in Jesus, regardless of how you live on Earth.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 5, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not sure I catch your meaning regarding "no choice".  Are you speaking of the slave having no choice about entering the relationship or no choice once IN the relationship or both?



Well I have never been in a master/ slave relationship and I’ve only been on this earth 37 years but to my understanding of being a slave is you don’t have a choice to be free hence you’re a slave.   In my faith the Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice to follow him or go your own way.  In that type of relationship there is no way it could ever be master/ slave.  Same way with marriage between a man and a woman. If the woman willingly wants to be with the man then there is her choice which in the same sense it’s the man’s choice as well.  Now if the man bound the woman and MADE her do as he wished with no regard to her desires/ wants or love then he has enslaved her and she has no choice.  You see this crap happen all the time in this country especially men abducting women/ children and enslaving them for their pleasures.  Whether it be sexual pleasures or money pleasures it’s the cause and effect of enslaving people against their will.  God does not EVER do this.  It’s all free will and choice.  That my friend is not slavery.


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## Israel (Sep 5, 2020)

For whoever was called in the Lord as a *slave* is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was *free* when called is a *slave* of Christ.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 5, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> God does not EVER do this.


Have you ever read the Bible?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> Well I have never been in a master/ slave relationship and I’ve only been on this earth 37 years but to my understanding of being a slave is you don’t have a choice to be free hence you’re a slave.   In my faith the Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice to follow him or go your own way.  In that type of relationship there is no way it could ever be master/ slave.  Same way with marriage between a man and a woman. If the woman willingly wants to be with the man then there is her choice which in the same sense it’s the man’s choice as well.  Now if the man bound the woman and MADE her do as he wished with no regard to her desires/ wants or love then he has enslaved her and she has no choice.  You see this crap happen all the time in this country especially men abducting women/ children and enslaving them for their pleasures.  Whether it be sexual pleasures or money pleasures it’s the cause and effect of enslaving people against their will.  God does not EVER do this.  It’s all free will and choice.  That my friend is not slavery.


It think SemperFiDawg meant one can volunteer to be a slave. Maybe.

Did Jesus volunteer to become a slave to God and man? Can we submitt and become a slave to Jesus?

I do see your point though in that Slaves can't volunteer to leave. That once in a Master/Slave relationship, the slave can't back our of it unless the Master releases him.

Scripture does say that Jesus emptied himself, taking the form of a slave.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 5, 2020)

Israel said:


> For whoever was called in the Lord as a *slave* is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was *free* when called is a *slave* of Christ.


True freedom is found in this slavery.... only.


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## Israel (Sep 6, 2020)

Jesus spoke to some Jews who believed  Him, some who said (in boast?) "we have never been slaves"

They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

some asked if they were blind

And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
And _some_ of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?

Jesus responded:

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

one man surveyed all his own doing to the death and accepted to himself his right position:

I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants. And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him. And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

and was surprised

and two men prayed

Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men _are_, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as _his_ eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified _rather_ than the other:

The context of Paul's words:

For whoever was called in the Lord as a *slave* is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was *free* when called is a *slave* of Christ.

Appear in the matter remaining as you have been when you are called. The equity and equality of brothers before the Lord is not dependent upon man's seeing and judgment of station...there is no shame to being a slave. There need be no resistance against it in that worldly station.

Nor is there boast over one by one who is free...for both are equal...the slave being made free in Christ (yet now solely through belonging to Christ), the free being made slave of Christ. There is, it would appear, an equality of experience...both freedom and slavery. And perhaps therefore there cannot be, nor should there be any despising of one against the other.

But the deeper matter of slavery, I am persuaded, is not dis-annulled by reduction in considerations of worldly station. The once being a slave to sin is addressed in many places. And if a man would seek to reduce his "sinning" to any sort of willing, or mere willing cooperation in it (as though he at any time could will himself free of it) it only further condemns the will...with no exoneration even then remotely possible to it. The "will" that is captured to sin...is so captured indeed in its cooperation, and only so deceived by sin thinking at any time it might withdraw its cooperation in it by pledge "it wills" to now assign to another.

The will has no power in itself to change masters. Indeed again, any celebration of the will's power in freedom only further condemns itself by its manifest devotion to sin.

A man in a cesspool may think himself free "I am free to stand here or there, I am free to swim, to do the backstroke, the breast stroke, or the butterfly. And I am free to consider whatever I so choose..." But he cannot will himself "out". The will so celebrated has no power especially to be "free".

Is it any wonder then that Jesus, in so speaking to those "who believed Him" is so resisted at this point of "freedom" He declares is exclusive to Himself and His giving, that by the end of the account (John 8:31) they "who believed him" had taken up stones to stone Him?

And God knows if it is here, perhaps even specifically here when in God's time it is shown to such a man that is ready to "take up stones against the Lord" and there finds himself revealed...that this word may become especially potent..."Fear not little flock it is the Father's good pleasure to give you the Kingdom"? The man's will "to be right" is broken upon a rock to the revealing of the will to save...even, and especially when he was rushing "in all will" to a right judgment to destruction.

The disclosure that "the will" that touts its freedom is continually all and only he11 bent is a great offense.

It must and can only be captured by another if that "another" is superior to the former master to his plain disarming and plunder.

If Peter's lesson of his poverty is not our own of any power to will to our own doing "even if they all desert you I will not" (I will to not) it must be made so. This is especially true in regard to all the Lord declares. "You will all desert me" was not made open for debate of who might "will against that".

"As you say Lord" may take, indeed must take, precisely as long as the Lord has appointed till it be said. No man can even "will" himself to that place. Here is where will and yes, even desire must see they are "in the hand of another". For as easily as a man may be fooled by his own will, his own desire will also, no less. We may, to that point think we can offer "our desire" to the Lord as a fitting thing, and until it is disclosed we go about in deepest place thinking "see, _I only want_ what is right and good!"

Herein may God's mercy and patience through Christ be appreciated.

We will and present to God our many desires in salvation such as we understand both it (salvation) and them. God is not despising anymore than He despised "if it be possible let this cup pass". For it is only in and through Christ that "Come, let us reason together" is the reality. And may things we say and hear sink down in our hearing to such unbearable wondering we find but only one place to go with them. May they in consideration become so unsettling _we have no choice, Yes! no choice at all..._as to where resort is found of all settlement.

For he (God) hath made him _to be_ sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 6, 2020)

Israel said:


> Jesus spoke to some Jews who believed  Him, some who said (in boast?) "we have never been slaves"
> 
> They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
> 
> ...



One of several salient points demanding our consideration:



> For whoever was called in the Lord as a *slave* is a freed person belonging to the Lord, just as whoever was *free* when called is a *slave* of Christ.
> 
> Appear in the matter remaining as you have been when you are called. The equity and equality of brothers before the Lord is not dependent upon man's seeing and judgment of station...there is no shame to being a slave. There need be no resistance against it in that worldly station.
> 
> Nor is there boast over one by one who is free...for both are equal...the slave being made free in Christ (yet now solely through belonging to Christ), the free being made slave of Christ. There is, it would appear, an equality of experience...both freedom and slavery. And perhaps therefore there cannot be, nor should there be any despising of one against the other.



The comments on the nature of "will" are particularly useful.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 6, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> It think SemperFiDawg meant one can volunteer to be a slave. Maybe.
> 
> Did Jesus volunteer to become a slave to God and man? Can we submitt and become a slave to Jesus?
> 
> ...



So if you VOLUNTEER that would mean you make the choice.  So how is that make you a slave?   The Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice.  Again if it’s forced it’s not much of a relationship whether it be friends/ boyfriend & girlfriend/ spouse etc.  In my opinion fellas you can only skin this cat one way.  We have the choice to pick up that cross and follow him.  We have the choice between right and wrong.  He wants us to want to have a relationship with him. A daily walk trying to be just like Christ.  If we could accomplish that one task this world would be something unimaginable which in my opinion will be heaven one day.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 6, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Have you ever read the Bible?



Yessir I have...   Not real sure what that question is supposed to imply.  I’m no theologian by any means but what I do know is that I’m saved by the grace of God and want to follow him as best I can in everything I do.  I know what I know from being in church and reading my Bible.  If there is something you could teach me I’m all ears brother.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 6, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Have you ever read the Bible?



If you have time put a few bible versus with your reply. I want to look them up and get the full context of the passage.  Thanks again.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2020)

Israel said:


> Repentance is a gift, as are all things in and of Christ, that is then offered to God in display of reception.
> 
> It is less that "we change our minds" then we are gifted with the sight/perception/revelation of another _true mind. _This is what changes us.
> 
> ...



We can not "choose" that which we do not have.
We can not "receive" that which we already possess.

Man's will is to do that which is apparently best for him at the moment, given immediate knowledge.
At one moment a man might eat a Snickers Bar.  Upon learning that he has diabetes he might not eat a Snickers bar (eating with contrary knowledge requires additional premises that lead to infinite regression).

One who willingly becomes a slave must possess knowledge of the superiority of that relationship.
One who willingly does not become a slave must not possess knowledge of the superiority of that relationship.

True knowledge made available to the mind can not be refused, it's influence on the will is irresistible (one can not willingly forget).
The receiving of the knowledge of the superiority of life in Christ, necessitates that we are a slave to the giver of that knowledge.

Given that true knowledge of Christ is from Christ, a man can not willingly choose Christ before Christ chooses the man by the gracious gift of true knowledge.  A man can not willingly reject Christ once He is chosen by Christ as he would be rejecting the superlative relationship and, therefore, against his will.

Man is free to act upon his will, which will has been determined by Christ's free choice.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> So if you VOLUNTEER that would mean you make the choice.  So how is that make you a slave?   The Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice.  Again if it’s forced it’s not much of a relationship whether it be friends/ boyfriend & girlfriend/ spouse etc.  In my opinion fellas you can only skin this cat one way.  We have the choice to pick up that cross and follow him.  We have the choice between right and wrong.  He wants us to want to have a relationship with him. A daily walk trying to be just like Christ.  If we could accomplish that one task this world would be something unimaginable which in my opinion will be heaven one day.


I think Paul used the slave analogy as that was the closest thing he could think of in our would. He more or less said it is was just an example. 
Paul uses the marriage and slavery metaphor to show obedience maybe. Who is the head of who. When we were born again, we became a slave of God, now obedient to a new master. There is never a moment in anyone’s life in which we are not a slave. We just change masters, from being a slave to sin to being a slave to God.

I do see your point about volunteering to be a slave though. Why can't one choose to switch masters? In the world of man, no but spiritually?

Maybe Paul completely missed the boat using the Master/Slave metaphor.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2020)

I would add that the Slavery metaphor is about submission more than choosing to become a slave.
Paul wasn’t just a regular slave, that his use of the term “bondslave” (rather than “slave” or “servant”) refers to the "voluntary" slavery of Exodus 21, highlighting Paul’s piety or underscoring some difference between these concepts.
Etymologically, “bond-servant” is used to distinguish a purchased slave who is owned by (bound to) his master from a servant who is simply hired help but is free to go elsewhere.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> So if you VOLUNTEER that would mean you make the choice.  So how is that make you a slave?   The Lord Jesus Christ gives the choice.  Again if it’s forced it’s not much of a relationship whether it be friends/ boyfriend & girlfriend/ spouse etc.  In my opinion fellas you can only skin this cat one way.  We have the choice to pick up that cross and follow him.  We have the choice between right and wrong.  He wants us to want to have a relationship with him. A daily walk trying to be just like Christ.  If we could accomplish that one task this world would be something unimaginable which in my opinion will be heaven one day.


The choice between right and wrong that we have and our daily walk to be like Christ, what does that mean to you?
Is it related to being obedient? If so what are the commands?

John 14:15
Jesus said to his disciples: If you love me, you will do as I command.

John 14:21
Whoever has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me. The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him."

John 15:10
If you keep My commandments, you will remain in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and remain in His love.

I'm wondering if it's something that's a matter of the heart that was placed upon our heart by Jesus and related to "love."
Or is there a Command List that we, as Bond Servants, are suppose to follow.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2020)

I also think about the Sheep and Goats being separated by their works or deeds of feeding and clothing, visiting prisons, etc.

Also works are a part of the resurrection;
those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.

It sounds like a resurrection of the Good and Evil, not a resurrection of the Believers and non-believers.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 7, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> The choice between right and wrong that we have and our daily walk to be like Christ, what does that mean to you?
> Is it related to being obedient? If so what are the commands?
> 
> John 14:15
> ...



I agree with exactly what you said.  The “choice” between right and wrong. It’s still our choice.  While the Lord commands us to do as he says you still have to cross the threshold of making that choice to follow him. Hence every time the word “love” is used.  Its crystal clear to me it’s a choice but if we CHOOSE him then his commandments are the guide line to victory in this earthly walk that we endure on this earth.    To me there is no two ways about it.  If you love him you will want to have the desire too follow his commandments.  I think of it this way too...  if you have a wife and you love her like the Lord loves us and some smoking hot woman comes along you have a choice to follow the human natural flesh or adhere to the marriage vowels you said to her. If your love is true like the Lords love is to us there will be no question as the the “guideline/ vowels” to made to her on that special day.    That’s how I see it.  It’s about loving and nothing more than that for each and every one of us.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2020)

hoytman308 said:


> I agree with exactly what you said.  The “choice” between right and wrong. It’s still our choice.  While the Lord commands us to do as he says you still have to cross the threshold of making that choice to follow him. Hence every time the word “love” is used.  Its crystal clear to me it’s a choice but if we CHOOSE him then his commandments are the guide line to victory in this earthly walk that we endure on this earth.    To me there is no two ways about it.  If you love him you will want to have the desire too follow his commandments.  I think of it this way too...  if you have a wife and you love her like the Lord loves us and some smoking hot woman comes along you have a choice to follow the human natural flesh or adhere to the marriage vowels you said to her. If your love is true like the Lords love is to us there will be no question as the the “guideline/ vowels” to made to her on that special day.    That’s how I see it.  It’s about loving and nothing more than that for each and every one of us.


I would agree as in marriage. If one loves his spouse, he will follow the vows of what marriage is. I guess no one really sat down with me and told me what those requirements were. Most of it just comes naturally if you love someone. You don't cheat, you don't party without them, you aren't jealous. You aren't selfish, you don't quarrel, you forgive, etc.

Again you mentioned if we choose Him, we have a desire to follow his commandments. I understand that part. What I'm seeking or asking is, what are those commandments? Is it spelled out in scripture or do we just know because it's in our hearts?
Do we really need a list or do we just know what God would want us to do like we know what our spouse would want us to do?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2020)

Back to that Commandment List, if the group in Romans 1 knew God by his General Call/Revelation, then the knew God's commandments. If they chose to ignore God from that knowledge and worship idols, then it angered God.

I can't see how God is angry at the whole world if they are following his commands by just a General Calling. Especially if they are totally depraved and haven't had an Effectual Calling.

Can one be totally depraved and expected to follow God's Law like the group in Romans 1 and at the same time be so depraved as to not have an Effectual Calling? Again, what did this group do as it concerned their general revelation that got them in so much hot water to begin with?

How can God send out a call in nature to follow him and then later say, sorry guys, the call is not for everyone but a select few.

Just trying to work that part of scripture into what is different after being called to be a child of God. Did all of Israel have a General Call? Yet only a remnant was offered an Effectual Call and the rest were hardened.

So maybe the commandment list has always been what we know within our hearts concerning the whole world. We know this by nature. The Jews, also new God's Law)Love)  by having a General calling(nature) and an Effectual calling(The Law.)

A lot of the General Call laws would be like not murdering and stealing. The Effective Calling laws and what the Jews had would be like not having more than one wife, Jeolously, Pride, Homoexuality, Cheating, etc.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 7, 2020)

Artfuldodger said:


> Back to that Commandment List, if the group in Romans 1 knew God by his General Call/Revelation, then the knew God's commandments. If they chose to ignore God from that knowledge and worship idols, then it angered God.
> 
> I can't see how God is angry at the whole world if they are following his commands by just a General Calling. Especially if they are totally depraved and haven't had an Effectual Calling.
> 
> ...






Artfuldodger said:


> I would agree as in marriage. If one loves his spouse, he will follow the vows of what marriage is. I guess no one really sat down with me and told me what those requirements were. Most of it just comes naturally if you love someone. You don't cheat, you don't party without them, you aren't jealous. You aren't selfish, you don't quarrel, you forgive, etc.
> 
> Again you mentioned if we choose Him, we have a desire to follow his commandments. I understand that part. What I'm seeking or asking is, what are those commandments? Is it spelled out in scripture or do we just know because it's in our hearts?
> Do we really need a list or do we just know what God would want us to do like we know what our spouse would want us to do?



The answers you seek are scattered all throughout the Bible.  Yes they are in black and white.  It all depends on what’s going on in your life as to what answers you may be seeking.  God has a lot to offer was as to how we should be in the book of Proverbs.  God gave Moses the 10 commandments which I would imagine you have heard of or maybe familiar with which are guidelines/ commandments.


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## hoytman308 (Sep 7, 2020)

Ok


Artfuldodger said:


> Back to that Commandment List, if the group in Romans 1 knew God by his General Call/Revelation, then the knew God's commandments. If they chose to ignore God from that knowledge and worship idols, then it angered God.
> 
> I can't see how God is angry at the whole world if they are following his commands by just a General Calling. Especially if they are totally depraved and haven't had an Effectual Calling.
> 
> ...


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 7, 2020)

gemcgrew said:


> Furtaker is one of the best friends you could possibly have. He is proclaiming good news to sinners. But it is hard to find a sinner.
> 
> The self-righteous are aplenty.



In his "good news" the good news is only "good" this side of the grave and then that's very questionable.  It's antithetical to scripture and the true gospel.  You can't really consider yourself a Christian (Christ-like) and continue to chase sin preaching it's of no consequence because you are saved.  To believe so is to be worse than childishly self-deceived, for even a child is ashamed when they err.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 7, 2020)

OK let's put some spectacles on this mule and rephrase the proposition this way: Why would you NOT WANT to make Christ your Lord and Master.  I'm speaking from experience here, but I can affirm without a doubt that each and every time over the course of my life that I chose my will over His will, and that has been the majority of the time, it never turned out good.  In fact, even on the good days,  it has NEVER turned out as good as it would have if I had just obeyed him as a slave would a master: following His example, teachings, and precepts.   I'm not a good Master of myself.  My history makes this very, very obvious.  I think it's because I wasn't created to a Master at all, but a follower, a slave.   

 I'm blessed beyond measure now ONLY because I chose to do my best to submit myself wholly to his will.  Once I did that my entire life turned around.  Hold the "duh" please? 

Time after time Scripture tells the story of those who did the same and were blessed beyond measure.  Then we have the Saints and the titans of Christianity down through the ages through the present day who have made this very, very strong decision and are blessed beyond measure for it. Can anyone name one of these who regretted their decision, just one?   

On the opposite end of the spectrum we have Legion and the masses who follow, not their will, but Satans.  Scripture is very clear and common sense dictates that there are no fence sitters.  "A servant can only serve one master." and there are only 2.  There is no God, Satan and Myself, only God and Satan.   Any notion that I am following MY will is just intellectual dishonesty and self-delusion.  If I'm not following God's will ,by default, I'm following Satan's.  So what are the consequences of that JUDGED ONLY ON THE EVIDENCE?  I think it's safe to say any sane person cannot name one, NOT ONE instance since the dawn of time where anyone has benefitted from serving themself/Satan.  Does the name Eve strike a bell with anyone?  

So, back to the question.  Why would anyone NOT WANT to make Christ his Lord/Master and be his slave knowing both the benefits and the consequences?  Forget the entire works debate, because it's a red herring as far as the doctrine (question) is concerned?  The answer is obvious for anyone with the honesty and courage to admit it.


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## furtaker (Sep 7, 2020)

Gratitude for a completely free gift is a good motivator for living a godly life.  I always laugh when I hear people say, "So since all you have to do is believe in Jesus for eternal life, you can go out and live like the devil".  I've believed this message for a long time and I never have done it.  I'm very far from perfect, but I don't live my life like a wild man just because I know I'm going to heaven.  I choose not to.  There are consequences to sin in a believer's life that will never be h*ll.  People have the hardest time grasping that concept.  But guess what?  I can go out and live like the devil if I want to.  And I'll still go to heaven.  I'm saved by grace and I didn't earn it.

Most of the world believes that if you're bad, you're going to h*ll.  I've known church-going people who believed that if you were bad, you could lose your salvation...yet those same people chose to live pretty rotten lives.  Funny how that works, ain't it?

It all boils down to whether or not you believe that salvation is truly a free gift like the Bible says it is.  Most folks don't think that it is...they think it's a trade.  It's truly an insult to what Jesus did for us on the cross.  The Bible says it's either totally by grace or totally by works.  There can't be a mixture of the two.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 8, 2020)

Seems to me that talking about salvation is a lot like talking about the weather.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 8, 2020)

C.S. Lewis on the subject of faith/works astutely noted,  ""Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but* it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. "*

IMHO the Lordship doctrine's relationship to the subject answers the question "Who wields the scissors?"


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## Israel (Sep 8, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm blessed beyond measure now ONLY because I chose to do my best to submit myself wholly to his will.  Once I did that my entire life turned around.  Hold the "duh" please?
> 
> .



Do you not believe you were blessed _before_?


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## welderguy (Sep 8, 2020)

We love Him because He first loved us.
and...
He scourgeth every son that He receiveth.

We had all likewise gone astray, but for His loving, faithful, scourging.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 8, 2020)

Israel said:


> Do you believe you were blessed _before_?



Great question!!!!  Looking back over my life I can see that God has always been there, even when I was living for Satan.  That said, my service to Satan kept me from receiving the blessings of God.  I sowed my destruction and reaped what I had sown, or better said, it reaped me.....almost.  My will separated me from God's righteousness, plain and simple.  For many years I continued in this as many other Christians do, be it in the name of sexual immorality, drugs/alcohol, gambling. Immoral behavior takes unlimited forms, all leading to grief and self-destruction.   Claiming salvation, going to Church regularly, I knew deep withing myself that "something" was missing.  Spiritually something just wasn't right.  I didn't have that God relationship that the Bible portrays, that my pastor portrays, that other notable Christians that I read about and witnessed portray. Whatever it was, deep down I knew I didn't have it.  There were times I thought I could almost feel it, hear it, sense it, but it was always beckoning, never in my grasp.  What was I missing?

Then came the crash and I was stripped of everything, physically, mentally,  emotionally,:everything.  It was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I learned the most important lesson in life.  There are only 2 choices in life and we are presented with them continually throughout every day of our life:  follow God's will for me completely without reservation or follow my will( aka Satan's will).  I had seen, felt, and endured the result of following my/Satan's will. Anything would have been an improvement, anything.  So option (B) it was.

I started to practice this to the best of my ability, to make Christ my Lord.  I'm not very successful at it, but the will is there.  The results: my life is better than I ever could have dreamed it would be in my wildest dreams.  I have a peace that transcends my circumstance whatever they may be and that peace is directly proportional to my will and ability to follow Him. If I lose that peace, it's a sure sign I've stepped out of his will, and I have to do a quick backtrack.

So to answer your question, "Do I believe I was blessed before?" This is my best effort at answering that.  Blessed in the sense, I was allowed to live to reap the destructive repercussions of my will and not die?  Yes.  Blessed in the sense of the redemption, transcendent peace, and love that a personal relationship with Christ as *LORD* as well as Savior brings? No.  Not at all.

I believe correctly or incorrectly, that I was saved years ago when I accepted Christ as my savior at the age of 14.  I had a true spiritual revelation at that time that was very personal and Christ was revealed to me as exactly who the Bible portrays him to be.  It was a revelation in every sense of the word.  Yet, it didn't have the effect on me of making Christ my Lord in the Master/slave tense.  I wish it had.  My life would have been inconceivably better, but I never even heard of the concept, much less understood it.   The term "Lord" was just another name for Savior as far as I was concerned, and upon my being baptized with my profession "Jesus is Lord."from "If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."  I understood the term as "Savior."  Ignorance is NOT bliss, at least not in this case, my case.  Learning that was both the most painful and the most treasured lesson I have ever been blessed to comprehend .

So what's the take away?  Making Jesus my Lord and me his slave has been the one and ONLY true difference maker in finding joy and peace in this life.  That's all. Period.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 8, 2020)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Great question!!!!  Looking back over my life I can see that God has always been there, even when I was living for Satan.  That said, my service to Satan kept me from receiving the blessings of God.  I sowed my destruction and reaped what I had sown, or better said, it reaped me.....almost.  My will separated me from God's righteousness, plain and simple.  For many years I continued in this as many other Christians do, be it in the name of sexual immorality, drugs/alcohol, gambling. Immoral behavior takes unlimited forms, all leading to grief and self-destruction.   Claiming salvation, going to Church regularly, I knew deep withing myself that "something" was missing.  Spiritually something just wasn't right.  I didn't have that God relationship that the Bible portrays, that my pastor portrays, that other notable Christians that I read about and witnessed portray. Whatever it was, deep down I knew I didn't have it.  There were times I thought I could almost feel it, hear it, sense it, but it was always beckoning, never in my grasp.  What was I missing?
> 
> Then came the crash and I was stripped of everything, physically, mentally,  emotionally,:everything.  It was the best thing that ever happened to me, because I learned the most important lesson in life.  There are only 2 choices in life and we are presented with them continually throughout every day of our life:  follow God's will for me completely without reservation or follow my will( aka Satan's will).  I had seen, felt, and endured the result of following my/Satan's will. Anything would have been an improvement, anything.  So option (B) it was.
> 
> ...



It sounds as though your life experience and my life experience might be reducible to the the same outline.

I count my time in the weeds as a great blessing as there was so much I learned in those years that effects my view of my neighbors — some of it positively and some negatively.  I believe that God gives us those experiences for His glory, although I don't always apprehend how the puzzle pieces fit together that make that picture.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2020)

hummerpoo said:


> It sounds as though your life experience and my life experience might be reducible to the the same outline.
> 
> I count my time in the weeds as a great blessing as there was so much I learned in those years that effects my view of my neighbors — some of it positively and some negatively.  I believe that God gives us those experiences for His glory, although I don't always apprehend how the puzzle pieces fit together that make that picture.



We can take those experiences and use them to help others.  Those suffering see our scars and KNOW we can relate to their suffering, thus scars are the evidence of our credibility of a shared suffering.  Our interactions with them gives credibility to our present state of improvement. Our testimony about how God brought us from our past to present glorifies his power, love and mercy, but it's only our credibility that encourages them to have the trust to do the same.    Without the pain and suffering that caused our scars they would have no reason to trust our credibility, no reason to trust our testimony, and no reason to trust that God could and would work the same miracles in them that he worked in us.  In fact, I can think of nothing that has the capacity to glorify God more than our pain and suffering, if we remain steadfast in his will.  And I can think of no better example of it than Christ on the cross.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 11, 2020)

I buried an Aunt today.  She died Tuesday.  She was so bad in her earlier life the family wouldn't let her come around, not even in the yard.  She suffered 2 massive strokes at about 40 that left her in the state of an infant.  She had to learn how to swallow and speak again.  The first and only word she said for first year or so was" Amen".  The first phrase she could speak was "Thank you Jesus."  Her speech never recovered much past that, existing only of a single word or a short 2-3 word phrase.  I saw something I have never witnessed today, a pastor break down and cry preaching a funeral of one of his parishioners.  His voice broke many times and he would have to stop and compose himself as he spoke of her, not of a deceased member, but a dearly love one near to his heart.  It struck me all of a sudden why: his love of her was the same as ours: that of a close family member.

He spoke the truth as we all had come to know it in the years after her stroke and that was this:  She had only one love in her life and that was Jesus, but she loved him by loving each and every person she met like they were her children or siblings.  She had only one purpose in life and that was to serve Jesus by serving others.   As physically and mentally debilitated as she was, she understood the most basic concept of Christianity: that love of Christ and service to Christ go hand in hand.  They are inseparable.  She grasped it and she lived it for the last 24 years of her life like no one I have personally ever known, certainly not myself.

The result was as one might expect.  She touched everyone she met as they marveled how someone so debilitated could always be so happy, always saying "Thank you Jesus"no matter her circumstance or how sick she was, always serving others to the very end.  Her life was visibly a living testimony to others of Christ and glorified Him in every way.

After the funeral I went up and told him what I had perceived and thanked him.    He acknowledged it and stated that love is everything and it all flows from Jesus to us and from us to others.  

I thought about her and her life ever since the funeral this morning and upon seeing this thread again it reinforced what I believe:  that if Christ isn't your Lord, then you don't love Him and because of that there's no way possible to live your life in a manner that will glorify Him.  It's just not possible. And in truth that's the sole purpose we were created: to glorify Him.


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