# Does 'free will' violate the 'laws of physics?'



## RegularJoe (Aug 30, 2021)

Does 'free will' violate the 'laws of physics?'


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## gemcgrew (Aug 30, 2021)

It would if it existed.


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## oldfella1962 (Aug 30, 2021)

"free will" means you have the_ right _to do anything & everything, but not the_ ability._

You can choose be as free as a bird and fly off a building just like a bird, but the laws of physics say otherwise.


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## WaltL1 (Aug 31, 2021)

Free will doesnt "do" anything on its own. Its just a concept.


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## Spotlite (Sep 1, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Does 'free will' violate the 'laws of physics?'


Laws of physics are reactive to an action, not ordering / preventing an action. 

“free will” - IF you’ll submit yourself to God and resist the devil……….. Jesus submitted when he said not my will, but thine.

Laws of physics - IF you jump off the bridge you’re going to go downward. 

Submit to common sense, don’t jump and you won’t go downward.


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## ambush80 (Sep 1, 2021)

It must.  I can't see any way around it.  I've been persuaded by Sam Harris's argument; I had no choice.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 1, 2021)

Thank you.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> “free will” - IF you’ll submit yourself to God and resist the devil……….. Jesus submitted when he said not my will, but thine.



If submission, where is Trinity?

Some see unity.  John 12:44-50
45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> If submission, where is Trinity?
> 
> Some see unity.  John 12:44-50
> 45 He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me.


I’m not Trinitarian.

The flesh part of the Godhead (Jesus) was tempted in all things. Why? What’s to overcome and where’s there hope that we can overcome if the play is already written?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not Trinitarian.
> 
> The flesh part of the Godhead (Jesus) was tempted in all things. Why? What’s to overcome and where’s there hope that we can overcome if the play is already written?


Yep, I guess for some all of creation is about "we".


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Yep, I guess for some all of creation is about "we".


You’re trying play on words and get into predestination without getting your feet wet.

I will stick to my original thought - submit to God, not your flesh.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I’m not Trinitarian.
> 
> The flesh part of the Godhead (Jesus) was tempted in all things. Why? What’s to overcome and where’s there hope that we can overcome if the play is already written?


Can the play have already been seen by God if it has never been written?

I've never read any thoughts on the Trinity or non-Trinity being based on Freewill or Predestination. Suppose Jesus is not God but is a human doing the "will of God," Doesn't making Jesus a mirror of God make it predestiny, just as the Trinity would do?


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can the play have already been seen by God if it has never been written?
> 
> I've never read any thoughts on the Trinity or non-Trinity being based on Freewill or Predestination. Suppose Jesus is not God but is a human doing the "will of God," Doesn't making Jesus a mirror of God make it predestiny, just as the Trinity would do?


Seen, yes. He knows all things.

Jesus isn’t a mirror of God, he’s God in the flesh - a manifestation of God.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> You’re trying play on words and get into predestination without getting your feet wet.
> 
> I will stick to my original thought - submit to God, not your flesh.


Thanks for the chuckle.
I talk about hierarchy; then you jump the chasm to


> " if the play is already written"


and accuse me of trying to get into predestination.
That's really quite funny.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Seen, yes. He knows all things.
> 
> Jesus isn’t a mirror of God, he’s God in the flesh - a manifestation of God.



"He's God in the flesh" but your not Trinitarian.  Does that mean that you are Sabellian?  I can't think of anything else that works that way.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> "He's God in the flesh" but your not Trinitarian.  Does that mean that you are Sabellian?  I can't think of anything else that works that way.


There’s nothing Trinitarian about Jesus being God in the fresh, unless you ignore scriptures.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> There’s nothing Trinitarian about Jesus being God in the fresh, unless you ignore scriptures.


Doesn't answer my question, does it.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Thanks for the chuckle.
> I talk about hierarchy; then you jump the chasm to
> 
> and accuse me of trying to get into predestination.
> That's really quite funny.


You’re welcome. Creation had nothing to with the comment, I thought it was just fair to play along.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> You’re welcome. Creation had nothing to with the comment, I thought it was just fair to play along.


Hierarchy is all about the Creator vs creation distinction.
BTW, you reversed the order of comments in the conversation.  You had already introduced predestination at the point that I mentioned creation.  I was sticking with hierarchy.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Doesn't answer my question, does it.


If it helps, I’m not a man made label. I believe in one God. God is a spirit. Jesus is a manifestation of that. He was God robed in flesh.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Hierarchy is all about the Creator vs creation distinction.
> BTW, you reversed the order of comments in the conversation.  You had already introduced predestination at the point that I mentioned creation.


Ok let me slow down then. Maybe I don’t fully understand your style of response. 

That’s a “me” problem.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> If it helps, I’m not a man made label. I believe in one God. God is a spirit. Jesus is a manifestation of that. He was God robed in flesh.


That does sound like Sabellianism, but I am only inferring, what you have not made clear.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Ok let me slow down then. Maybe I don’t fully understand your style of response.
> 
> That’s a “me” problem.


Confessing that I do not know what "style of response" means, nonetheless.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Confessing that I do not know what "style of response" means, nonetheless.


You have a small worm on the hook and I’m a large mouth looking for movement. I bit before I knew what I was biting.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> You have a small worm on the hook and I’m a large mouth looking for movement. I bit before I knew what I was biting.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


>


short replies with minimum detail is what I’m saying


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> short replies with minimum detail is what I’m saying


I addressed the subject of questions, on July 22, near the end of a conversation which included anything but short replies or minimum detail.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> I addressed the subject of questions, on July 22, near the end of a conversation which included anything but short replies or minimum detail.


Then I’ve addressed whatever it was you were eluding to sometime between July and 2005. 

If that’s the new tactic of communicating then ok. I will just research all of your replies before answering a quote.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Then I’ve addressed whatever it was you were eluding to sometime between July and 2005.
> 
> If that’s the new tactic of communicating then ok. I will just research all of your replies before answering a quote.


Although I invited questions then, nary a one was asked.  Same now. That's my point.


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## Spotlite (Sep 4, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Although I invited questions then, nary a one was asked.  Same now. That's my point.


I’ve learned with you and one more, there are no direct answers. A question gets a question as the reply or an unexplained statement with this type of reply when asked.


> I addressed the subject of questions, on July 22


Obviously, you had a reason to initiate this debate, care to go into details with your objective rather than us pointing to our history to find answers?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 4, 2021)

Now ....... let me think.  How should I respond to a clumsy attempt to set up an ad hominem argument?

* The direct answer is readily available within this thread.
* The "direct answers" accusation is demonstrable false.
* The question in response to question is not demonstrated.

Wait ...... the answer is obvious — make no statement; ask no question; answer no question.


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## Spotlite (Sep 5, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Now ....... let me think.  How should I respond to a clumsy attempt to set up an ad hominem argument?
> 
> * The direct answer is readily available within this thread.
> * The "direct answers" accusation is demonstrable false.
> ...


No one is attacking you. Relax. 

It’s worth reading the thread again, though. You acknowledged that nary a question has been asked while trying to prove the answers are embedded within this thread. 

I simply said I’ve learned I’m not going to get direct answers from you - there’s a reason I haven’t asked. I didn’t learn that in this thread. 

Now try it one more again - what exactly was your point of initiating this?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> No one is attacking you. Relax.
> 
> It’s worth reading the thread again, though. You acknowledged that nary a question has been asked while trying to prove the answers are embedded within this thread.
> 
> ...



non sequitur piled on non sequitur.
Makes me dizzy.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Now try it one more again - what exactly was your point of initiating this?



Read my first post in this thread.

That went pretty well, some understanding was gained on trinitarian views; then you decided to make it about predestination.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2021)

I think the horse is dead, don't you.


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## Spotlite (Sep 5, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Read my first post in this thread.
> 
> That went pretty well, some understanding was gained on trinitarian views; then you decided to make it about predestination.


Ultimately it was about submitting to God. That ultimately leads into all about men and the “we” - (road to predestination when explored) 

Trinity / Unity had no real value there. But yes the horse is dead. It’s beat.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Ultimately it was about submitting to God. That ultimately leads into all about men and the “we”.



Yes, that is it, ultimately.
either, It's All about men,
or It's All about God.

Creator or Creation.

For those who have been given an interest.  Consider reading God's Holy Word, cover to cover, in the Spirit, with attention on every word and phrase, maintaining the context, and unrelenting attention to the question: "To whose benefit do the events within creation *ultimately* accrue, not secondary or temporary benefit, but the *ultimate* benefit?

Is answering that question worth a year, or two, or three, or four, of your available time?  God knows.


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## Spotlite (Sep 5, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Yes, that is it, ultimately.
> either, It's All about men,
> or It's All about God.
> 
> ...


So we’re back to where I began, Submit yourself to God - the creation submitting to the Creator. If that’s a problem, then half the Bible is incorrect. In countless places it instructs the creation to submit, obey, surrender, etc., to the Creator.

All the rest is what I meant by you getting into predestination without getting your feet wet - your argument is / was it’s already predestined…..and not about men (doing anything)


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## brian lancaster (Sep 6, 2021)

Are u kiddin


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## hummerpoo (Sep 6, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> So we’re back to where I began, Submit yourself to God - the creation submitting to the Creator. If that’s a problem, then half the Bible is incorrect. In countless places it instructs the creation to submit, obey, surrender, etc., to the Creator.
> 
> All the rest is what I meant by you getting into predestination without getting your feet wet - your argument is / was it’s already predestined…..and not about men (doing anything)


So you get it.
God is of Himself.
Creation is not of self.
Creation is of God.
Therefore, it's all about God.

Men "do"; but never without God.
Everything in Creation must necessarily have been created and has no being without The Creator.


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## bullethead (Sep 6, 2021)

So many creators. So much assertion. So little proof. If there is no free will then everyone is doing, saying, typing exactly what they are designed to be. Everyone who thinks there is no god is doing what they are supposed to be doing. Everyone who thinks they are part of some chosen elite have been programmed to think just that.
On the other hand....


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 7, 2021)

Any opinion I type isn’t my own but God’s, even if it directly contradicts His will so I[He] won’t bother.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 7, 2021)

So if every thread is derailed before page 2 is that physics or free-will?


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So if every thread is derailed before page 2 is that physics or free-will?


It is meant to be.
Only what can happen will happen.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Any opinion I type isn’t my own but God’s, even if it directly contradicts His will so I[He] won’t bother.


I would love to hear someone explain how adultery is part of God`s Will, and not lusting after one`s own flesh / desires.

You can only serve one master.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> For those who have been given an interest.
> Consider reading God's Holy Word, cover to cover*,* ....
> with attention on every word and phrase,
> maintaining the context, and unrelenting attention


For the person who is actually willing to do the above,
here is a manner in which to enable one to 
o-b-j-e-c-t-i-v-e-l-y 
do just that for the New Testament,
in a manageable 5 min.s a day > 5 days a wk > in exactly 52 wks.
www.TheBible.bz     < One will see that the emphasis is on 
objectivity and self-analysis,
whereby one evaluates for oneself, 
not relying on what others _claim_ the the Bible says.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> So if every thread is derailed before page 2 is that physics or free-will?


Actually, the question posed was very much on topic with the thread subject - there is no free will in predestination, and there is no free will in the below pointing to a Hierarchy where anything man does / did was not even of his own thoughts 





> Any opinion I type isn’t my own but God’s, even if it directly contradicts His will so I[He] won’t bother.



Agreeing with you here by stating - God allowing you and God ordering you to commit adultery are not the same and adultery should not be viewed as God`s work. (what does light have to do with darkness or what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness) 

For the record, free will is a man made term anyway. The Bible speaks and warns those following after their own heart, lust, desires and flesh - we recognize that as free will.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/freewill/


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I would love to hear someone explain how adultery is part of God`s Will, and not lusting after one`s own flesh / desires.



Me too.  That was my point.  If one holds the view that we have no free will and are just automatons, then God sure does contradict himself a lot and that in itself is not my opinion, just me being made by God to state it.  Go figure huh?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I would love to hear someone explain how adultery is part of God`s Will, and not lusting after one`s own flesh / desires.
> 
> You can only serve one master.


Your argument can only reduce to Dualism (as in Manicheanism or Zoroastrianism).
But who in his right mind would want to go there in this forum — not me.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, the question posed was very much on topic with the thread subject - there is no free will in predestination, and there is no free will in the below pointing to a Hierarchy where anything man does / did was not even of his own thoughts
> 
> Agreeing with you here by stating - God allowing you and God ordering you to commit adultery are not the same and adultery should not be viewed as God`s work. (what does light have to do with darkness or what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness)
> 
> For the record, free will is a man made term anyway. The Bible speaks and warns those following after their own heart, lust, desires and flesh - we recognize that as free will.


Is there any predestination in free will? God sent His son to die on a cross for our sins. Did God leave that happening up to free will or was it predestined?


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Your argument can only reduce to Dualism (as in Manicheanism or Zoroastrianism).
> But who in his right mind would want to go there in this forum — not me.





> lusting after one`s own flesh / desires.



2 Peter 2:10 But chiefly *them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness*, and despise government. Presumptuous [are they], *selfwilled*, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.

1 John 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, *the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.*

John 8:44 *Ye are of [your]father the devil, and the lusts of your father *ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore *God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, *to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Romans 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and *make not provision for the flesh, to [fulfil] the lusts [thereof].*

2nd Timothy 2:22 *Flee* also *youthful lusts:* but *follow righteousness*, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart

2nd Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they *will not endure sound doctrine*; *but after their own lusts *shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 

Titus 3:3 For *we ourselves also* were sometimes foolish, *disobedient*, deceived, *serving divers lusts and pleasures*, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another.

Titus 2:12 Teaching us that, *denying ungodliness and worldly lusts*, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

2nd Peter 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time *in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.*

1 Peter 4:3 For the time past of [our] life may suffice us to have wrought the *will of the Gentiles*, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banquetings, and abominable idolatries:

2nd Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, *walking after their own lusts,*

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, *walking after their own lusts*; and their mouth speaketh great swelling [words], having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.


A few more to consider:
James 1:14 - 15
Ephesians 4:22-24
Psalms 81:12
Romans 1:27
1st Corinthians 10:6 
Galatians 5:16



> You can only serve one master.



John 8:44 *Ye are of [your]father the devil, and the lusts of your father *ye will do......

Matthew 6:24 *No man can serve two masters*: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.



> I would love to hear someone explain how adultery is part of God`s Will,


Exodus 20:14 Thou shalt not commit adultery 

Leviticus 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Matthew 5:27 - 28 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. 

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: *for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:*



> Your argument can only reduce to Dualism (as in Manicheanism or Zoroastrianism).



Ok


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

There is no way one can read the Bible and not seeing free will and predestination. Start at Romans 9 with the genealogy. Read though chapter 11.
Since salvation is based on grace and not works and Romans 9 explains that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and that it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, that sorta takes some free will out of the picture. At least some.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> There is no way one can read the Bible and not seeing free will and predestination.


There is a way. I can't find it anywhere.


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## Qazaq15 (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> There is no way one can read the Bible and not seeing free will and predestination. Start at Romans 9 with the genealogy. Read though chapter 11.
> Since salvation is based on grace and not works and Romans 9 explains that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, and that it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, that sorta takes some free will out of the picture. At least some.



That's quite an achievement if you ask me.  To successfully leave that answer ambiguous.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Would not prophecy itself prove some predestination?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> There is a way. I can't find it anywhere.


Romans 9 reads like predestination. Romans 10 reads like free will. Romans 11 returns to predestination.

Yet it was God who laid the "Stumbling Stone" to snare the occupants of Israel. Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. Because their pursuit was not by faith, but as if it were by works. 
That reads like predestination. The Rock was both a snare and a sanctuary. 

It's very easy to read it both ways depending on what goggles one is wearing.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is there any predestination in free will? God sent His son to die on a cross for our sins. Did God leave that happening up to free will or was it predestined?





Artfuldodger said:


> Would not prophecy itself prove some predestination?



In more than one place in the Bible it was said that if you would have did this, this will / would / would happen / not have happened. That is omniscient.


Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Luke 22:42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

The flesh part of Jesus could have walked away and followed flesh. The cross was predestined, a work in man / creation is predestined. An individual man may chose to follow flesh as part of free will, but that does not stop God`s work, he will use another man. He does not need any "YOU`s", he will use a willing vessel. 

2nd Timothy 2:21-26 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.


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## Qazaq15 (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would not prophecy itself prove some predestination?



Absolutely.  In spite of all the decisions made by everyone by their own free will, we all end up playing into a predestined hand, willfully.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Qazaq15 said:


> That's quite an achievement if you ask me.  To successfully leave that answer ambiguous.


I don't have an answer. I actually can see both. I guess since I do see some predestination, then one could say it all must be predestination. How can we have some free will, some predestination, some happenstance, and some divine intervention? I really don't know that answer.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> In more than one place in the Bible it was said that if you would have did this, this will / would / would happen / not have happened. That is omniscient.
> 
> 
> Matthew 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? 54 But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
> ...


If Jesus could have walked away, what was God's plan B? Do you really see an all powerful God, making His plans based on our actions instead of His?
Besides, if he had already saw Jesus refuse the cup, why would he send him. He wouldn't he would have sent the one he foresaw take the cup.

The same with Israel's role in the death of Jesus. If God had foresaw that Israel would not trip over the Stumbling Stone, he would have chose China.
The whole genealogy in Romans 9 would be Chinese.  Esau and Jacob would have been Chinese or some other nations descendants.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Qazaq15 said:


> Absolutely.  In spite of all the decisions made by everyone by their own free will, we all end up playing into a predestined hand, willfully.


I've always said that if I go to my closet to choose between my red shirt and my blue shirt and God has foreseen me choose my red shirt, how is this any different from predestination even if it is free will?

If God foresaw Jesus taking the cup and Israel stumbling on the Stone to make his plan happen, does it really matter much if it's free will or predestination? 
Perhaps they all had free will but even prophets foresaw their choices. How could they at that point choose another destiny?


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Jesus could have walked away, what was God's plan B? Do you really see an all powerful God, making His plans based on our actions instead of His?
> Besides, if he had already saw Jesus refuse the cup, why would he send him. He wouldn't he would have sent the one he foresaw take the cup.
> 
> The same with Israels role in the death of Jesus. If God had foresaw that Israel would not trip over the Stumbling Stone, he would have chose China.


I see a powerful God that’s omniscient and knew what Jesus would do, just like with Job. 

Because of scripture, temptation, I see the lesson in not following flesh and submission to Gods Will and plan. Jesus acknowledged he can have help from Angels, he also acknowledged that he wouldn’t follow his flesh. 

If you’re programmed, what have you really overcame?


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've always said that if I go to my closet to choose between my red shirt and my blue shirt and God has foreseen me choose my red shirt, how is this any different from predestination even if it is free will?


How does God knowing you would choose a red shirt mean he chose the red shirt for you?

Predestination isn’t omniscient.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> I see a powerful God that’s omniscient and knew what Jesus would do, just like with Job.
> 
> Because of scripture, temptation, I see the lesson in not following flesh and submission to Gods Will and plan. Jesus acknowledged he can have help from Angels, he also acknowledged that he wouldn’t follow his flesh.
> 
> If you’re programmed, what have you really overcame?


If salvation is from grace and not works and God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, what do I have to do to overcome? Jesus overcame for me.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> How does God knowing you would choose a red shirt mean he chose the red shirt for you?
> 
> Predestination isn’t omniscient.



It's not predestination, it's foreseen free will. Just like the individuals who will become Christians. If God has already foreseen their free will choices, can they then undo what God has already foreseen?

I'm not saying it's predestination, just that it becomes like pedestrianization.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 7, 2021)

hummerpoo said:


> Your argument can only reduce to Dualism (as in Manicheanism or Zoroastrianism).
> But who in his right mind would want to go there in this forum — not me.


Just to prove what some already think (that I am not fully in my right mind) I will add this:

Predestination is not really the point.  Predestination is only a derivative of Sovereignty.

Maybe that fits better in the "Baking Noodles" thread, since everybody enjoys arguing over predestination.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

Jesus foresaw the role Judas played in God's plan for salvation. How could at any point the clay change from what the Potter had chosen as it's role in His plan?

Regardless of free will or predestination.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

A god would have known about his Jesus plan before he even made Adam. A god would have known Adam's choices long before Adam was created. A god would have known "the world's" actions long before he drowned all but eight. When the bible mentions that god was displeased,  or angry, or surprised, or couldn't find Adam doesn't that directly go against an all knowing god and a god that predetermined anything?


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> A god would have known about his Jesus plan before he even made Adam. A god would have known Adam's choices long before Adam was created. A god would have known "the world's" actions long before he drowned all but eight. When the bible mentions that god was displeased,  or angry, or surprised, or couldn't find Adam doesn't that directly go against an all knowing god and a god that predetermined anything?


It would against a predetermined, I’m not sure I follow how it would go against an all knowing.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> It would against a predetermined, I’m not sure I follow how it would go against an all knowing.


God called out to Adam "where are you?".
And for the rest, a god would have known Adam was going to sin, that his "drowning" solution wouldn't work and the jury is out on whether or not manifesting himself as his "son" did anything.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus foresaw the role Judas played in God's plan for salvation. How could at any point the clay change from what the Potter had chosen as it's role in His plan?
> 
> Regardless of free will or predestination.


That still doesn’t separate omniscient and predestination.

Knowing what Judas would do and programming Judas to do it aren’t the same. 

Judas’s betrayal of Jesus was seen ahead of time. Judas also felt the sorrow enough to repent. He chose to ignore the intent of that sorrow and hung himself. 

The fat kid will eat the candy. His fleshly desires for the candy tells me he won’t resist it. Can he stop eating it?


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> God called out to Adam "where are you?".
> And for the rest, a god would have known Adam was going to sin, that his "drowning" solution wouldn't work and the jury is out on whether or not manifesting himself as his "son" did anything.


I think it was David (I’d have to look it up) but long story short, was told if you stay here, you’ll be captured. If you go there you won’t.

An all knowing God sees every circumstance and out of any decisions we make.


Although not written, I believe Eve could have resisted and said no. I believe God saw any scenario with any of that and if she does this, this will happen, if she does that, that will happen.

When God called out to Adam and knew Adam was hiding, God already knew what they did.

But, that’s my understanding only.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

"Where are you?" Does not sound like he knew where Adam was hiding.
Had it said:
"Come out from behind that tree" Sounds like he knew where Adam was hiding.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> When the bible mentions that god was displeased,  or angry, or surprised, or couldn't find Adam doesn't that directly go against an all knowing god and a god that predetermined anything?


No. It shows how the omniscient God communicates with part of creation. It is referred to as "condescension". Our knowledge or ignorance of this is determined by God. A man who is caused to think anthropocentrically, would see it as you do.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

gemcgrew said:


> No. It shows how the omniscient God communicates with part of creation. It is referred to as "condescension". Our knowledge or ignorance of this is determined by God. A man who is caused to think anthropocentrically, would see it as you do.


Yes, I am guilty of going with the best available evidence. Keeping it simple rather than introducing unknowns to complicate things.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> "Where are you?" Does not sound like he knew where Adam was hiding.
> Had it said:
> "Come out from behind that tree" Sounds like he knew where Adam was hiding.


God asking Adam where he was is not about the physical location of "where are you Adam". The sin separated Adam from God, the question is designed to call out Adam and to draw him back to God.

The math teacher does not ask the student what 10 + 10 is because the teacher does not know the answer. 

The questions are asked for a purpose based on the needs of the one the question are being asked, not to obtain information. 

He asked Jonah questions to make Jonah self examine himself.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> God asking Adam where he was is not about the physical location of "where are you Adam". The sin separated Adam from God, the question is designed to call out Adam and to draw him back to God.
> 
> The math teacher does not ask the student what 10 + 10 is because the teacher does not know the answer.
> 
> ...


Adam was gonna do what adam was gonna do. Whether of his own free will or predetermined. A god would know that and wouldn't need to help draw him anywhere.
Gem mentioned about me interpreting the world around human experiences.  I have found that believers equate their gods to human levels. Hide and Seek,  Math teachers and Police questioning being a few examples.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> God asking Adam where he was is not about the physical location of "where are you Adam". The sin separated Adam from God, the question is designed to call out Adam and to draw him back to God.
> 
> The math teacher does not ask the student what 10 + 10 is because the teacher does not know the answer.
> 
> ...


The bible says what it says in black, white and red. It takes a believer to interpret it to what they want it to say.
There is no explanation as to why God asked Adam where he was. God didn't pause the story and explain to the reader what or why. Adam hid. God asked where he was. That is cut and dry. To add any more is making excuses for un-god-like qualities.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Adam was gonna do what adam was gonna do. Whether of his own free will or predetermined. A god would know that and wouldn't need to help draw him anywhere.
> Gem mentioned about me interpreting the world around human experiences.  I have found that believers equate their gods to human levels. Hide and Seek,  Math teachers and Police questioning being a few examples.


Of course Adam was going to do what Adam was going to do. I was addressing your statement concerning the location of Adam - as in God didn’t know the physical location of Adam.

We as humans can only relate to the human world as we know it. God will come down on our level because we can’t possibly understand his.

Who said God needed help finding Adam? God asking Adam where he was is for Adam’s benefit. God already knew.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> The bible says what it says in black, white and red. It takes a believer to interpret it to what they want it to say.
> There is no explanation as to why God asked Adam where he was. God didn't pause the story and explain to the reader what or why. Adam hid. God asked where he was. That is cut and dry. To add any more is making excuses for un-god-like qualities.


It’s not what they want it to say. Many make it say what they want. That doesn’t mean that’s what it says. Adam hiding is not as cut and dry as you think. There’s is a ton it’s addressing in many locations of the Bible. 

Bible also everything wasn’t written.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Of course Adam was going to do what Adam was going to do. I was addressing your statement concerning the location of Adam - as in God didn’t know the physical location of Adam.
> 
> We as humans can only relate to the human world as we know it. God will come down on our level because we can’t possibly understand his.
> 
> Who said God needed help finding Adam? God asking Adam where he was is for Adam’s benefit. God already knew.


Adam made his choice by eating the fruit. Why would god need to help him? Couldn't Adam find god on his own if he wanted to?


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> It’s not what they want it to say. Many make it say what they want. That doesn’t mean that’s what it says. Adam hiding is not as cut and dry as you think. There’s is a ton it’s addressing in many locations of the Bible.
> 
> Bible also everything wasn’t written.


I figured the bible is meant to be taken as god's word. It means what it says. If it meant more it would say more.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Adam made his choice by eating the fruit. Why would god need to help him? Couldn't Adam find god on his own if he wanted to?


According to the Bible, it is God that draws man to him, out of their sin. 

I don’t see where God would need help finding Adam. It was intended to draw Adam back to God.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I figured the bible is meant to be taken as god's word. It means what it says. If it meant more it would say more.


It is God’s Word. Bible is clear about false teachers and those that manipulate scripture.

Do you believe WB Baptist church uses God’s Word the way it’s intended to be used? What about David Koresh?

Reading the Bible doesn’t mean a person is being led by the spirit. When the outcome trashes the Bible and makes a mockery of God, such as the two examples of people given ^^^the Reader is led by flesh.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> It is God’s Word. Bible is clear about false teachers and those that manipulate scripture.
> 
> Do you believe WB Baptist church uses God’s Word the way it’s intended to be used? What about David Koresh?
> 
> Reading the Bible doesn’t mean a person is being led by the spirit. When the outcome trashes the Bible and makes a mockery of God, such as the two examples of people given ^^^the Reader is led by flesh.


The same god gives warnings in the Koran about false teachings.

I don't know what WB Baptist teaches but there seems to be enough content in the bible to give them an avenue to take it their way.
Same with Koresh. IDK what he taught.

Reading the bible is like every other book. Open to interpretation by the reader. In that regard it does not  elevate itself beyond human authors and thoughts to me.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Yes, I am guilty of going with the best available evidence. Keeping it simple rather than introducing unknowns to complicate things.


I have no issue with that.


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## Spotlite (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> The same god gives warnings in the Koran about false teachings.
> 
> I don't know what WB Baptist teaches but there seems to be enough content in the bible to give them an avenue to take it their way.
> Same with Koresh. IDK what he taught.
> ...


No, it’s not the same god - Allah

There’s enough avenue to say Judas hung himself, go and do likewise - but is that the intention?

It is open for interpretation, there are correct and wrong interpretations - will always be debated.

David Koresh claimed to be the final prophet, Son of God.

Not spirit let then yes it’s just words of men. But, I realize not everyone believes in God so there’s shears going to be a debatable barrier there.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 7, 2021)

bullethead said:


> A god would have known about his Jesus plan before he even made Adam. A god would have known Adam's choices long before Adam was created. A god would have known "the world's" actions long before he drowned all but eight. When the bible mentions that god was displeased,  or angry, or surprised, or couldn't find Adam doesn't that directly go against an all knowing god and a god that predetermined anything?



Just my opinion, but to your question, not necessarily.  For example "But the Lord God called to the man and said to him, “Where are you?” within the context it is written could very well be taken as an act to leave them no choice but to 'step up'.  To your point, and let me be clear, I do believe man has free will, but back to your point, It's my belief that God is sovereign, but within that context we have an amount of free will within some constraints: the laws of physics being an example.


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## bullethead (Sep 7, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> No, it’s not the same god - Allah
> 
> There’s enough avenue to say Judas hung himself, go and do likewise - but is that the intention?
> 
> ...


God, Yahweh, Allah. All the god of Abraham.
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/293/viewall/story-of-abraham/


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2021)

This is interesting, and all knowing God changing his mind. I think when someone is near death and we pray, aren't we praying for God to change his mind on not take that person?

https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/top...HodjGuVoARonxrSkho1cl41ZSy682t1n6f1oueo_EHl3o


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## Spotlite (Sep 9, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> If salvation is from grace and not works and God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, what do I have to do to overcome? Jesus overcame for me.


Read 2 Corinthians 11 ????? 1 Peter 5:8 ????Then ask why would you need to be sober and vigilant.

Ephesians 6: 1-13.

You can only overcome if you’re in him - you follow your flesh, lust of your heart and you can’t overcome.


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## Spotlite (Sep 9, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus foresaw the role Judas played in God's plan for salvation. How could at any point the clay change from what the Potter had chosen as it's role in His plan?
> 
> Regardless of free will or predestination.


Did it not grieve the Lord that he made man? Why is that? Why would he grieve if they acted according to his plan?

What about Jonah 3 ???? If the plan for Nineveh was for them to turn from their evil, why would God repent for the evil he was going to do to them? You asked a question about changing God’s mind.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 10, 2021)

The reality, for me, is that i have to accept that with regard to all ideologies that require faith, there are voluminous questions that are simply and plainly not answerable.  Hence, the noun 'faith.'
"Pasqual's Wager" is a wager cause of the 'faith' factor, as a matter of related interest.
[ https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pascals-wager ]


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 11, 2021)

Point of order as for Judas the Matthew version has Judas hanging himself: the other version in Acts is Judas buying a field, falling headlong and his intestines bursting out (I HATE when that happens!) 

So which was it?


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 11, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> The reality, for me, is that i have to accept that with regard to all ideologies that require faith, there are voluminous questions that are simply and plainly not answerable.  Hence, the noun 'faith.'
> "Pasqual's Wager" is a wager cause of the 'faith' factor, as a matter of related interest.
> [ https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pascals-wager ]



interesting and reveals something about human nature: most religions (and no doubt Christianity) put a focus on mankind overcoming it's animalistic/sinful nature and having a higher purpose and deeper spiritual understanding, but at the end of the day it's really about saving themselves from eternal punishment and/or getting a reward. 

Maybe it's just me but once you put the fear of eternal violent torture on the table it makes me ask the question of do we really believe or are we afraid of what happens to us if we _don't_ believe? The concept of eternal suffering sounds very coercive to me! 
It's a powerful way to ensure compliance and panders to mankind's most basic fears, versus aspiring to higher ideals.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

I just blew my 13 year old daughter's mind last night by proving to her that there's no possibility of freewill (using the Sam Harris argument).  I wonder how she's doing in school today.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> I just blew my 13 year old daughter's mind last night by proving to her that there's no possibility of freewill (using the Sam Harris argument).  I wonder how she's doing in school today.


Yeah Ambush, i am not saying i got it figured out 
(consistent my posts, herein, a number of times hither and yawn);
however, if someone said to me that i had to guess or else,
i spose i'd have to say
(& this would not matter a wit to me whether i was
Christian, atheist - tho i do no claim to be adequately educated on atheism/am working on it, Jew, Taoist, Islamist...whatever)
that free-will (aka, self-will) is probably a perception, and
that some version of predetermined outcomes is the actual, 
tho hard for me to accept, reality.
I dunno .... man, i've pretty much concluded that i just work here 
and it is beyond my particular paygrade.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Yeah Ambush, i am not saying i got it figured out
> (consistent my posts, herein, a number of times hither and yawn);
> however, if someone said to me that i had to guess or else,
> i spose i'd have to say
> ...



My wife got mad and said "Oh. So now it's not your fault when you do something?"  I said "No.  We should act as if we have freewill because you don't know what you're gonna do next".  But it raises interesting questions about punishment and revenge.  Sam Harris describes the guy who climbed up in the clocktower and shot a bunch of folks as being like a grizzly bear.  The tumor in his brain wasn't his fault, but he still had to be "put down".  What we call "evil people" are forces of nature, like grizzly bears or tornadoes.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

It feels like I have freewill, but for the life of me I can't find it.  It's not worth thinking about most of the time.


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## RegularJoe (Sep 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> It feels like I have freewill, but for the life of me I can't find it.  It's not worth thinking about most of the time.


Yeah Ambush, even if i ever figure it out &
catch the bus, what am i ever gonna do with it.
Meanwhile, i find the chase kinda invigorating for some reason.


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Yeah Ambush, even if i ever figure it out &
> catch the bus, what am i ever gonna do with it.
> Meanwhile, i find the chase kinda invigorating for some reason.



It's fun to think about, and whichever way you choose to believe, it can influence the way you think about the world and your place in it.


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## ky55 (Sep 20, 2021)

RegularJoe said:


> Yeah Ambush, even if i ever figure it out &
> catch the bus, what am i ever gonna do with it.
> Meanwhile, i find the chase kinda invigorating for some reason.


If you ever figure it out and catch the bus, would you please buy a couple of extra tickets?


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## ambush80 (Sep 20, 2021)

ky55 said:


> If you ever figure it out and catch the bus, would you please buy a couple of extra tickets?



No refunds


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