# A church divided



## Bucaramus (Nov 1, 2011)

This will be a long read but I am looking for opinions of others who may have been in a similar situation. Our church has decided to merge with another church down the road. The vote was pretty close but in the end it was voted that the merge would take place. After the vote, our church lost almost all of the elders because they were adamently against it. These are 2 churches that have been around for quite a while.
   There seems to be differing stories as to how this process began. Our pastor said we were invited by the other church but the other churches newsletter states that our church approached them. I did not vote for the merge but my vote was more of a financial decision more than anything. Our church has zero debt and the other church has a huge looming debt.
   With the departure of the elders, most of the people that I looked up to and have come to love are now gone and very bitter. But I miss them dearly. Our pastor is in celebration mode thinking this is the best thing since sliced bread and believes it is God's plan. I'm not so sure.
   I guess why I am asking, is now when I am in church, I can't hardly even concentrate on the messages being preached. All of the messages so far have been about Joshua and how he obeyed God's word. My problem is that I continue to read on beyond the message and after every victory for Joshua, the inhabitants of the cities along with all of their relatives and belongings were destroyed. I can't quit reading further and then I becoming critical of the message preached.
   Is it time for me to look for a new church? I'm afraid that merging 2 100 year old churches is going to be the end of both. This can't be God's plan, but I am thoroughly lost.


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## olcowman (Nov 1, 2011)

It's this sort of political posturing that keeps folks away from orginized religion... I am of the opinion that many of these great big churches are more interested in building bigger/nicer facilities than their 'competition', than they are in spreading the word and really helping folks. Bucaramus, I wish you luck in sorting thru this mess... maybe it's time to stop in and check out some of them smaller churches we all pass by everyday?


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## jabb06 (Nov 1, 2011)

get together with all the folks that voted no on the merger & start having yalls on service.


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## Bucaramus (Nov 1, 2011)

olcowman said:


> It's this sort of political posturing that keeps folks away from orginized religion... I am of the opinion that many of these great big churches are more interested in building bigger/nicer facilities than their 'competition', than they are in spreading the word and really helping folks. Bucaramus, I wish you luck in sorting thru this mess... maybe it's time to stop in and check out some of them smaller churches we all pass by everyday?



Ours was a relatively small church.


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## Bucaramus (Nov 1, 2011)

jabb06 said:


> get together with all the folks that voted no on the merger & start having yalls on service.



The no voters already have but the problem is that when the move occurs, the church body is going to lease out the building that had been home to the elders for quite a while. They are now holding service somewhere else. I also teach Sunday school and hate to pull out of my obligation so I can go somewhere else.


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## jabb06 (Nov 1, 2011)

Sounds like a tough situation.I think I would have a hard time continuing to go to a church where I 2nd guess the message Im hearing.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 1, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> After the vote, our church lost almost all of the elders because they were adamently against it.



Where are the elders going?


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## Bucaramus (Nov 1, 2011)

They are starting their own church in a building that is on loan to them for now.


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## THREEJAYS (Nov 1, 2011)

The elders are charged with the spiritual matters of the congregation and because I assume they took their job seriously and I'm sure through prayer had reason to object to the merger I would have to consider looking in to joining them.I would however seek my own answer w/much prayer.I commend you on your commitment to your teaching commitment.You didn't state wether the other Church body was like minded in doctrine.That would matter to me.I have no doubt that with an ernest desire to seek God's will that in time you will know whats right.Prayers w/you.


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## Bucaramus (Nov 1, 2011)

THREEJAYS said:


> The elders are charged with the spiritual matters of the congregation and because I assume they took their job seriously and I'm sure through prayer had reason to object to the merger I would have to consider looking in to joining them.I would however seek my own answer w/much prayer.I commend you on your commitment to your teaching commitment.You didn't state wether the other Church body was like minded in doctrine.That would matter to me.I have no doubt that with an ernest desire to seek God's will that in time you will know whats right.Prayers w/you.



They are both Baptist and only a mile apart. My guess would be that since they have both existed over 100 years, they probably aren't too like minded.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 1, 2011)

Since your congregation is a relative small congregation and over half it's members voted for the merge, there must be some positive aspects to the merge.
Change is sometimes difficult to begin with.
I'm curious as to why the moving elders didn't continue to be elders at the new site?

I'm not so sure I like anything that creates a division within an established church, unless it's a biblical issue.


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## Bucaramus (Nov 1, 2011)

Let me clarify when I say elders that I am merely talking about all of the older people in the church. They didn't want to move because this had alway been their church home and had they wanted to attend the other they surely could have due to the close proximity. Also, leaving a church with no debt an joining a church with a huge debt just didn't make sense to them. Most of their issues are hard and hurt feelings more than anything. A church is supposed to grow. Afterall, you are to spread the word to all nations. I just hate that this caused such division and now I have loved ones in 2 locations. It's almost like a divorce. There don't seem to be any real winners here.


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## formula1 (Nov 2, 2011)

*Re:*

Change I'm sure is uncomfortable but in this life, inevitable.  Have you ever thought that what seems to be devastating to you and many others may in fact be the workings of God to bring you to a new 'level' in the Spirit in Him?  Isn't that what this scripture says:

Romans 8:28
And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose.

You may not be comfortable with the change, how it happened, or anything else.  Yet, God is not a God who would leave you alone to battle through this change.  He will lead you to what He wants for you. Keep praying, keep seeking, you will find Him!

God Bless!


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## rjcruiser (Nov 2, 2011)

Who besides the pastor is in leadership at the church?

Is it the pastor and a bunch of committees?  Do you have biblically qualified elders?


Been through several church splits/splinterings and they're never fun.  Realize that whatever happens, you are held accountable for the spiritual growth of your family.  Your family will (or should) learn more about the Bible at home and from you than they will at church....so be an example through this.  

Sometimes in these situations, it is best to leave both sides and go somewhere completely different.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 2, 2011)

Here would be my approach, for what it's worth.

If you haven't already, sit down with whoever leads your church.  If it's elders, go talk to them.  If it's a pastor, go talk to him.

Ask them the reasons for the merger.  Ask them why they feel God is leading them to this decision (even though it sounds like it was a congregational vote).

Take their answers.  Do not react at that meeting.  Take the answers home.  Pray over them.  Search scripture and see if what they are doing and the reasons they are doing it line up with scripture and what you know to be true.

If they do....then you have your answer.  If the reasons don't line up with scripture, go sit down with them again.  Tell them you cannot get a peace about what's going on and tell them why from a biblical perspective.

If they refuse to see what you're talking about and you've really truly prayed over it and searched for God in this, then again...you have your answer.

Don't seek man's opinion on what you should do.  Find the reasons.  Search scripture.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 2, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> They are both Baptist and only a mile apart. My guess would be that since they have both existed over 100 years, they probably aren't too like minded.



That has not been my experience with Baptist churches.  On matters of the faith, most Baptist churches are very similar in what they believe.  The main difference here seems to be the debt, which is not insignificant.


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## JB0704 (Nov 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Ask them the reasons for the merger.  Ask them why they feel God is leading them to this decision (even though it sounds like it was a congregational vote).



Last church I went to had a merger of sorts, more like one church annexing another, ended up with 100% approval of the annexed church.  Nobody really understood it, the leaders just said "trust us."  And everybody did.

A few months later it was discovered that the annexed church's pastor, who had planned on starting a new church in another state and that was the reason for the merger, was attempting to flee an adulteress relationship the whole time, thus the new church in a new state.  Now, the annexed church is part of a bigger church because they "trusted the leaders."

When questions were asked, the answer was simply: "if you don't trust the leaders you need to find a new church."

Funny how that works.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 2, 2011)

...and that....wouldn't line up with scripture.  Which is why I gave the rest of the advice.



And honestly they are right.  If you don't trust the leaders, you DO need to find a new church.  But likely for different reasons that they were thinking.


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## JB0704 (Nov 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and that....wouldn't line up with scripture.  Which is why I gave the rest of the advice..



Oh, I agree, but try telling that to folks who have an entire theology developed on pastoral autonomy, you get nowhere.



Huntinfool said:


> And honestly they are right.  If you don't trust the leaders, you DO need to find a new church.  But likely for different reasons that they were thinking.



Agreed again, but see above, and see our previous conversations in the last thread I started.

As far as the OP goes, I think it is sad what has happened, and the financial issues are very relevant in the discussion.  But everybody should do what they believe is right.  I guess that applies to all sides of the topic.  I hope it works out.


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## Big7 (Nov 2, 2011)

I'll have to break out my go-to on this one. 

Go look HERE:
http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/1-10.htm

Then.. If you are interested I can send you to what _I believe_ 
(and 1.2 - 1.3 Billion with a "B" others believe) is a church that can solve all your problems. PM me.

No more splits.. no more divisions and no more schisms.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 2, 2011)

Big7.....I love ya man.

I gotta say, I bet myself $100 that when I opened this thread and I saw you had the last post, the word "schism" would be in the post!

I'll give you this.  You're consistent and you stick to your guns.  There is definitely something admirable about that quality.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 2, 2011)

I've personally seen some great, and greater, things happen as a result of churches combineing.
I pray it will happen in this case.


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## Big7 (Nov 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Big7.....I love ya man.
> 
> I gotta say, I bet myself $100 that when I opened this thread and I saw you had the last post, the word "schism" would be in the post!
> 
> I'll give you this.  You're consistent and you stick to your guns.  There is definitely something admirable about that quality.



Thanks Brother.

I thought rj would be the one who called me that one.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 3, 2011)

Not calling you out.  I just thought it was funny.  I saw "Big7" and I thought....church divided = schism.  Big7 will be all over that one!


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## rjcruiser (Nov 3, 2011)

Big7 said:


> Thanks Brother.
> 
> I thought rj would be the one who called me that one.





Little slow on the draw.  Starting a new role at my current company, so my Woody's time is going to be affected.


But...let's not forget about the great schism your church had Big 7....and to say it won't ever happen again...well...no one knows the future


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## JB0704 (Nov 3, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If you don't trust the leaders, you DO need to find a new church.  But likely for different reasons that they were thinking.



Can we revisit this thought, because it got me to thinking....

...if we call church "home," then who has the greater claim, the leader or the congregant?  I believe the Bible is clear that no one is more relevant than any other within the church body.  If this is the case, why does the dissenting congregant have to leave when he disagrees?  If he is part of the body, how can he be chopped off?

I know that is not how things work, but it is a major point of frustration for myself.  Leaders, sometimes, view the church as "theirs."  They protect "their" vision, and protect that vision from dissent.  But the church is not the leaders'.  It is God's.  So, who is right and who is wrong when legitimate dissent occurs?


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## Big7 (Nov 3, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Little slow on the draw.  Starting a new role at my current company, so my Woody's time is going to be affected.
> 
> 
> But...let's not forget about the great schism your church had Big 7....and to say it won't ever happen again...well...no one knows the future



I ain't forgot. The Orthodox are closer than any others.

Two "no" and one "?" 

Go look HERE:
http://www.saintaquinas.com/christian_comparison.html

GOOD LUCK IN YOUR NEW POSITION!
Don't do like I do.. Take on more responsibility w/o the RAISE!


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## rjcruiser (Nov 3, 2011)

Big7 said:


> GOOD LUCK IN YOUR NEW POSITION!
> Don't do like I do.. Take on more responsibility w/o the RAISE!



lol...thanks.

Actually, that's all I've been doing the last 3 years...more responsibility and equal pay.

This is a lateral move, but hopefully, it will equal bigger $$ in the future.

I'll try and make sure I get on here to correct you Catholics for the rest of us that are a part of the greater catholic church


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## Huntinfool (Nov 4, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Can we revisit this thought, because it got me to thinking....
> 
> ...if we call church "home," then who has the greater claim, the leader or the congregant?  I believe the Bible is clear that no one is more relevant than any other within the church body.  If this is the case, why does the dissenting congregant have to leave when he disagrees?  If he is part of the body, how can he be chopped off?
> 
> I know that is not how things work, but it is a major point of frustration for myself.  Leaders, sometimes, view the church as "theirs."  They protect "their" vision, and protect that vision from dissent.  But the church is not the leaders'.  It is God's.  So, who is right and who is wrong when legitimate dissent occurs?



I would say slightly different.  None is greater than the other.  But very clearly, the NT church was "led".  You may disagree with the concept of head pastor or whatever.  But "elder led" is very clear.  They have authority over the local body.  In other words, they are charged with "leading".  They are held accountable and to a higher standard than the rest of us, especially if they teach.

So....since they are charged with leaded that local body, if you think they are corrupt or just wrong and you've searched scripture and spent time talking with God about the issue...if you still can't get peace with what is going on, then your only options are stay and know you are going against what God has told you or leave.

They are the leaders of the church, right or wrong.  If they are wrong, then they will lead that body down an unrighteous path and they will be judged accordingly.

If they are wrong, then you need to go be part of a body that is led by godly men.


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## JB0704 (Nov 5, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If they are wrong, then you need to go be part of a body that is led by godly men.



....and that is not "home."  So that old cleche of finding a "church home" can pretty much be tossed.

As far as the "leaders" being more significant, I think there is something in the Bible about one part being no more significant than the rest (1 Cor. 12:21).  This implies to me that regardless of who the "leaders" are, nobody is of greater value.  And, if you read further, there could be implications that the "weaker" ones are to be more protected.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 5, 2011)

Like I said....none are greater than the others.  But some lead.  That is clear in scripture.  You cannot refute that.  Yes, the weaker are to be protected....that is why those in leadership and teachers will be held to a highe

The old cliche of "finding a church home" cannot be tossed.  I have one and so does pretty much every other person who has posted in this thread. 

What you're doing, while your choice, is the minority view.  Most of us have had bad experiences and STILL have continued to run the race and find a "church home"....regardless of how cliche you think it might be.  

We have family in our churches.  Most churches are not bad JB.  Most are led by godly men....I wish you could see that.


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## JB0704 (Nov 5, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Like I said....none are greater than the others.  But some lead.  That is clear in scripture.  You cannot refute that.  Yes, the weaker are to be protected....that is why those in leadership and teachers will be held to a highe



....but, in the event of a disagreement, they (leaders) are affirmed by being the ones to stay?  Isn't there a biblical model for conflict resolution (one on one, then the elders, then the whole congregation)?  I have never seen a disagreement come to that in any church.  Usually, the leaders stay, and the offended party goes and finds a new family.



Huntinfool said:


> The old cliche of "finding a church home" cannot be tossed.  I have one and so does pretty much every other person who has posted in this thread. What you're doing, while your choice, is the minority view.  Most of us have had bad experiences and STILL have continued to run the race and find a "church home"....regardless of how cliche you think it might be.



A couple of things....one, we can do better than saying "look, everybody agrees with me."  Two, I define "home" as where you are always loved and welcome, regardless of your differences.  If I have to leave in the event of a disagreement, then I was never home.  What you are describing is belonging to a social club, not a family.



Huntinfool said:


> We have family in our churches.  Most churches are not bad JB.  Most are led by godly men....I wish you could see that.



Again, does that family still love you when you think they are wrong, or do they tell you to go find another family?  I will let you guess how many of my old "family members" from previous churches still give a crap about me......

I know most churches are led by Godly men.  But that doesn't mean its a family. Sure you are welcome, come serve, give some cash, but disagree....well, maybe you should leave.


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## gtparts (Nov 5, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....but, in the event of a disagreement, they (leaders) are affirmed by being the ones to stay?  Isn't there a biblical model for conflict resolution (one on one, then the elders, then the whole congregation)?  I have never seen a disagreement come to that in any church.  Usually, the leaders stay, and the offended party goes and finds a new family.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can be fairly certain that you won't find forgiveness after you hit the exit, even if it is there. It takes at least two to quarrel, but it only takes one to destroy a relationship. It doesn't appear that you have graced anyone with forgiveness. Your position speaks volumes.... mostly bitterness. It is one thing to be wounded. It is something quite different to refuse healing. 
(Just an observation I made based on this thread and several others.) 

When you hold a grudge, you allow someone to live in your head rent-free and that usually makes the person with the non-paying tenant  miserable to one degree or another.


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## Huntinfool (Nov 6, 2011)

JB, it's clear that you won't (as in refuse to) get it.  You don't like the reality that there are leaders in churches that can/will let you down.

If they are in leadership and you disagree with them and feel that you are grounded in Christ, then you can leave or stay.  No one makes you leave.  But they are in leadership and they are staying.  If you continue to disagree, you have no other option but leave.

I understand that doesn't sit well with you.  


I did not say I was "right" because most in here agree with me.  I said most in here have found a true "church home" dispute what you are saying.  It is not only possible, it is probable if you actually try to find one.  All who have responded in the thread have pointed out that they are part of a local body that is led by godly men.  

You don't want to put yourself out there and try organized church.  You don't have to.  Please continue in your "church".  I hope it serves you well and helps you glorify God, for that is your purpose.

I'm off to KS on Monday.  I think I need a break from coming in here at this point so I'm grateful for the time.  Have fun y'all.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 6, 2011)

gtparts said:


> You can be fairly certain that you won't find forgiveness after you hit the exit, even if it is there. It takes at least two to quarrel, but it only takes one to destroy a relationship. It doesn't appear that you have graced anyone with forgiveness. Your position speaks volumes.... mostly bitterness. It is one thing to be wounded. It is something quite different to refuse healing.
> (Just an observation I made based on this thread and several others.)
> 
> When you hold a grudge, you allow someone to live in your head rent-free and that usually makes the person with the non-paying tenant  miserable to one degree or another.



Dealing with personal issues in church can be particularly difficult if the person in the right, is actually in the wrong.  It can be really difficult trying to reach solution with a good, loving Christian brother or sister who's wrong, but thinks they're right.

One of the difficulties of church leadership is making sure that everything is done as Christ would have it done, and keeping private things private in the process.

Often, the whole story cannot be told out of respect for other people's privacy.  That can be difficult for some people to accept.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 6, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....and that is not "home."  So that old cleche of finding a "church home" can pretty much be tossed.
> 
> As far as the "leaders" being more significant, I think there is something in the Bible about one part being no more significant than the rest (1 Cor. 12:21).  This implies to me that regardless of who the "leaders" are, nobody is of greater value.  And, if you read further, there could be implications that the "weaker" ones are to be more protected.



Biblically speaking, no one is of lesser value than me, or you.  In the church meekness counts far greater than value.  Value is often found in our ability to accept what we wouldn't prefer simply because others disagree with me.

I'm often wrong.  It's easier for me to see your faults than for me to see my own.
I think that's typical.


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## TJBassin (Nov 6, 2011)

I go to a smaller church. We have lost some members lately and it has bothered pastor. Pastor prayed and he told us today if WE would build PEOPLE that God told him he would build the church. Very incouraging to hear that today. Change can be good if God is doing it for his Glory. Hope you hear from God and let him direct your paths.


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> JB, it's clear that you won't (as in refuse to) get it.  You don't like the reality that there are leaders in churches that can/will let you down.



As always, your willingness to speak for me is fascinating.




Huntinfool said:


> If they are in leadership and you disagree with them and feel that you are grounded in Christ, then you can leave or stay.  No one makes you leave.  But they are in leadership and they are staying.  If you continue to disagree, you have no other option but leave..



Again, if it was "home" why would somebody leave?  My point here is not against church, it is against the cleche.  If it was a "family," things could be worked out.  How often does that really happen?  More likely, pride gets in the way of discussion, the leader pulls the "God appointed" card, and the dissenter is labeled "against God" because he simply disagrees with leadership.  



Huntinfool said:


> You don't want to put yourself out there and try organized church.  You don't have to.  Please continue in your "church".  I hope it serves you well and helps you glorify God, for that is your purpose.
> 
> I'm off to KS on Monday.  I think I need a break from coming in here at this point so I'm grateful for the time.  Have fun y'all.



Hope you get a biggun'!


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2011)

gtparts said:


> You can be fairly certain that you won't find forgiveness after you hit the exit, even if it is there. It takes at least two to quarrel, but it only takes one to destroy a relationship. It doesn't appear that you have graced anyone with forgiveness. Your position speaks volumes.... mostly bitterness. It is one thing to be wounded. It is something quite different to refuse healing.
> (Just an observation I made based on this thread and several others.)



Okay, I am bitter.  Good call.

I know everything I say is taken with a grain of salt, and I don't know how much more plain this can be said:

The last several churches I have attended or visited have given the "head pastor" the authority of God (all authority is given from God, so God appoints the pastor, then God apparently gives the pastor "visions").  If a congregant disagrees, there is no room for discussion.  He is told that God has appointed the pastor, and the pastor's vision must be followed.  The congregant is to "get on board" or find a new "home."

I am not sure who is the guilty party when the congregant leaves in such a scenario.  But, it appears to me that a man of integrity would reject such a system which sets the head pastor up as a "mini-Pope."


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## JB0704 (Nov 7, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Biblically speaking, no one is of lesser value than me, or you.  In the church meekness counts far greater than value.  Value is often found in our ability to accept what we wouldn't prefer simply because others disagree with me.
> 
> I'm often wrong.  It's easier for me to see your faults than for me to see my own.
> I think that's typical.



I appreciate you, Ronnie.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 14, 2011)

> I also teach Sunday school and hate to pull out of my obligation so I can go somewhere else.



You have to follow your own conscience. If you feel you are being led to follow the elders that split from the whole thing, simply resign your commission without recrimination or bitterness and go where your heart lies.


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## gtparts (Nov 14, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Okay, I am bitter.  Good call.
> 
> I know everything I say is taken with a grain of salt, and I don't know how much more plain this can be said:
> 
> ...



Earthen vessels, all, my dear friend. While a pastor receives authority from God, it is no guarantee that he won't stumble or disappoint at some time or other. Your expectations may or may not be realistic, but they are your expectations. I am not sure anyone has the right to place their own expectations on others. I do believe, however, God has gone to great lengths to make plain His expectations. Let God deal with the matter, unless He gives you the task of calling the leadership back to righteousness. It is more important to please God than to please men.... or to be pleased by men.


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 14, 2011)

Have we forgotten Matthew 23?

8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are hall brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for jyou have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 lThe greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Every time I see a Rolex-wearing self-aggrandising Bible thumper, I keep hearing that verse.

Over.

and.

Over.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 14, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> Have we forgotten Matthew 23?
> 
> 8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are hall brothers. 9 And call no man your father on earth, for jyou have one Father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11 lThe greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
> 
> ...




So do I.  And I'm a Christian!


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 14, 2011)

That's one of a few things that sticks in my craw about the American Christ(TM, all rights reserved, Copyright 1957, the Republican Party). It's this politicking, refusing to follow certain Biblical precepts, and being if anything about submitting to the authority of the pastor, rather than the pastor being the servant to the community.

Jesus washed the feet of his disciples. He didn't drive around in a Benz.


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## Bucaramus (Nov 14, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> You have to follow your own conscience. If you feel you are being led to follow the elders that split from the whole thing, simply resign your commission without recrimination or bitterness and go where your heart lies.



My heart lies with God. As my conscience does too. These children I have been teaching the past few months have developed bonds with my wife and I that I never really expected. I can't and won't walk out on them. I follow God, I don't follow a man and pastor knows that and I believe respects it. I love and miss those that walked out but they are worshipping a building and hating a man. All things that are not Godly. I have decided to stay put and continue to worship God and hopefully by showing my love and understanding to those that left that they will let go of their bitterness. Forgiveness is one of the hardest principles taught by Christ, but I hope we can all learn to forgive one another and continue to grow in Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 14, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> My heart lies with God. As my conscience does too. These children I have been teaching the past few months have developed bonds with my wife and I that I never really expected. I can't and won't walk out on them. I follow God, I don't follow a man and pastor knows that and I believe respects it. I love and miss those that walked out but they are worshipping a building and hating a man. All things that are not Godly. I have decided to stay put and continue to worship God and hopefully by showing my love and understanding to those that left that they will let go of their bitterness. Forgiveness is one of the hardest principles taught by Christ, but I hope we can all learn to forgive one another and continue to grow in Christ.



All things considered, I believe you've made the correct decision.  I think your focus and dicipleship are on target and I pray the future will bare that out.
Good for you.


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## gtparts (Nov 15, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> My heart lies with God. As my conscience does too. These children I have been teaching the past few months have developed bonds with my wife and I that I never really expected. I can't and won't walk out on them. I follow God, I don't follow a man and pastor knows that and I believe respects it. I love and miss those that walked out but they are worshipping a building and hating a man. All things that are not Godly. I have decided to stay put and continue to worship God and hopefully by showing my love and understanding to those that left that they will let go of their bitterness. Forgiveness is one of the hardest principles taught by Christ, but I hope we can all learn to forgive one another and continue to grow in Christ.





Ronnie T said:


> All things considered, I believe you've made the correct decision.  I think your focus and dicipleship are on target and I pray the future will bare that out.
> Good for you.



In my impossible position of ignorance concerning God's specific plan for you and your wife, Buc, I pray that God's will be done and that your decision is fully vindicated in your very presence as you toil in His field.
 I would also be mindful of the life and calling of Jeremiah, the weeping prophet. Being faithful may be the very act of "planting" for a future harvest you may not see this side of Heaven. Sometimes the task to which we are called is incredibly difficult, that is to say, impossible outside the power of God. May God's grace fill you as you pursue Him with a godly passion.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

The older people or elders of your church are set in their ways.My question is what is so bad about merging?I think this is a good thing if they are doing it for Gods purpose.Making disciples spreading the word.The problem with people is that if its not good for us it cannot be right.What if it is Gods plan and you turned your back on it.One God One Jesus One Holy Spirit One Church One Thought One Love One Mind.Whats wrong here?Oh wait a minute I do not like it therefore it cannot be right....Christians helping one another what is wrong with that?I am confused to what people are so upset about.Sounds like some people need to pray and ask for forgiveness for being stupid in faith.....Not trying to be mean..


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## centerpin fan (Nov 15, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> My question is what is so bad about merging?



I think it's the whole debt issue:  a church with no debt merging with a church with a lot of debt.


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> Sounds like some people need to pray and ask for forgiveness for being stupid in faith.....Not trying to be mean..



And in your wisdom, you have discerned that you are "smart in faith?"  Sounds like some people need to study the word humility.

Oh, if you are not trying to be mean, why were you?


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## Madman (Nov 15, 2011)

I have not read every post all the way through, but I have not noticed any disagreement in theology between the two churches.  

I understand being uncomfortable with taking on someone else debt etc. etc., but do both churches have beliefs that are closely enough aligned that they can worship together?
Unfortunately I have seen more people leave their church over “the color they painted the parish hall” rather than over poor theology or doctrine.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 15, 2011)

Greaserbilly said:


> ...you are hall brothers.


 
Hall brothers... LOL
That 'lil slip gave me a chuckle 

Maybe we could start a new church...  :trampoline:





(anyone else diggin' these new smilies? :cow::yummy::jump


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I think it's the whole debt issue:  a church with no debt merging with a church with a lot of debt.



Are we not suppose to help one another as Christians-Christ followers?Gods plan does not always make sense to us but it is his plan..Love one another as God loves you right.....


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> And in your wisdom, you have discerned that you are "smart in faith?"  Sounds like some people need to study the word humility.
> 
> Oh, if you are not trying to be mean, why were you?



Exactly see never said I was smart in faith I am just as ignorant as the next guy.Thanks for pointing it out..


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## centerpin fan (Nov 15, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> Are we not suppose to help one another as Christians-Christ followers?Gods plan does not always make sense to us but it is his plan..Love one another as God loves you right.....



As B said, most of the elders of his church left over this, so they obviously didn't think it was God's plan.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 15, 2011)

This was ultimately a power struggle between the leadership and the pastor. They agreed to let the church decide, both sides assuming that their view would win out. When the leadership lost, they came up with a plan "B". Since many people actually think that the pastor's plans are inspired by God, the leadership were up against a stacked deck


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

Madman said:


> I have not read every post all the way through, but I have not noticed any disagreement in theology between the two churches.
> 
> I understand being uncomfortable with taking on someone else debt etc. etc., but do both churches have beliefs that are closely enough aligned that they can worship together?
> Unfortunately I have seen more people leave their church over “the color they painted the parish hall” rather than over poor theology or doctrine.


Amen..


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 15, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Hall brothers... LOL
> That 'lil slip gave me a chuckle
> 
> Maybe we could start a new church...  :trampoline:
> ...




Cut and paste error. In the original it had a set of footnotes, a through j if I remember correctly.....
I tried to remove them, guess I missed one.


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> Exactly see never said I was smart in faith I am just as ignorant as the next guy.Thanks for pointing it out..



....but enlightened enough to know that other folks are "stupid" and in need of some prayer.

It just seems a bit dismissive when folks have concerns, and those concerns are tagged "stupid in faith" when they don't line up with the majority.


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## Bucaramus (Nov 15, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> This was ultimately a power struggle between the leadership and the pastor. They agreed to let the church decide, both sides assuming that their view would win out. When the leadership lost, they came up with a plan "B". Since many people actually think that the pastor's plans are inspired by God, the leadership were up against a stacked deck



Although I think this was something that pastor did want to happen, he did his best to stay out of the decision making process. The vision team put this option in front of the church body for a yes or no vote. The yes's won. It was a democratic process and everyone had to know that there was a possibility that the vote would not go their way. I will continue to pray for those that left in hopes that they can find forgiveness and peace. Thanks for all of the input.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....but enlightened enough to know that other folks are "stupid" and in need of some prayer.
> 
> It just seems a bit dismissive when folks have concerns, and those concerns are tagged "stupid in faith" when they don't line up with the majority.



Naturally people do not like change if it does not suit them.That my friend is not Godly or of God that is of self and it is stupid.Just like us arguing over this.Its not of God it is of self and satan.We are also being stupid.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> Although I think this was something that pastor did want to happen, he did his best to stay out of the decision making process. The vision team put this option in front of the church body for a yes or no vote. The yes's won. It was a democratic process and everyone had to know that there was a possibility that the vote would not go their way. I will continue to pray for those that left in hopes that they can find forgiveness and peace. Thanks for all of the input.


Big things can happen hope all of you enjoy worship together I think it is awesome that 2 churches combined to better serve God.As one glorious things will happen.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 15, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> Although I think this was something that pastor did want to happen, he did his best to stay out of the decision making process. The vision team put this option in front of the church body for a yes or no vote. The yes's won. It was a democratic process and everyone had to know that there was a possibility that the vote would not go their way. I will continue to pray for those that left in hopes that they can find forgiveness and peace. Thanks for all of the input.


I missed it then. Wonder why then.... well I guess that the OP


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## Ole Crip (Nov 15, 2011)

formula1 said:


> Change I'm sure is uncomfortable but in this life, inevitable.  Have you ever thought that what seems to be devastating to you and many others may in fact be the workings of God to bring you to a new 'level' in the Spirit in Him?  Isn't that what this scripture says:
> 
> Romans 8:28
> And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to His purpose.
> ...


Awesome.......


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## centerpin fan (Nov 15, 2011)

Bucaramus said:


> The vision team put this option in front of the church body for a yes or no vote.



What is a vision team?


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> What is a vision team?



Churches I've been to, this is like the "leadership team."  Not elders, but, leaders.  The pastor is the "visionary" type thing.

The elders job was to affirm the visionaries.  This is the direction church is going btw.  Every church I have been to that has been planted in the last ten years has this sort of structure.


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## JB0704 (Nov 15, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> Naturally people do not like change if it does not suit them.That my friend is not Godly or of God that is of self and it is stupid.Just like us arguing over this.Its not of God it is of self and satan.We are also being stupid.



Nope.  _We_ are not.  You are intentionally offending people.  Is that Godly or of God?

The problem was not change, it was absorbing debt.  Seems like an intelligent consideration to me......but, maybe I am stupid.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 15, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Churches I've been to, this is like the "leadership team."  Not elders, but, leaders.  The pastor is the "visionary" type thing.



I thought it might be something like that.


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## thedeacon (Nov 16, 2011)

I have sit quite during this discussion and there are many things I would like to say but I won't because there would be a lot of sarcasm involved and that would not be proper.

But I will say, There is "no" good excuse for a church splitting. Notice I said excuse. To many times we confuse excuse with reason, be sure you are not trying to excuse yourself before you cause trouble in the Lords church, I have a feeling the judgement for that will be great. Pride is a terrible sin.

Just my opinion, God Bless.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 16, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> What is a vision team?


A vision team is a team of people in the church who plan events.They are the people who plan evangelism.And how they are going to evangelise to better serve God.The focus of a vision team is to walk as Jesus walked.For instance how can they help a community or say another Church who is struggling.Like taking on another Churches debt would Jesus turn his back on this type of situation I think he would embrace it with open arms.Mission,Church gatherings,Reaching a community,Touching lives in need,all these things are the focus of a vision team.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Nope.  _We_ are not.  You are intentionally offending people.  Is that Godly or of God?
> 
> The problem was not change, it was absorbing debt.  Seems like an intelligent consideration to me......but, maybe I am stupid.



I have offended you for saying stupid and in need of prayer.Acts 16;5 so the Churches were strenghened in faith and grew daily in numbers.1John2;6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.Matthew22;37-39Jesus replied Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your mind this is the first and greatest commandment and the second is like it love your NEIGHBOR as yourself.1Corinthians9;22To the weak I became weak towin the weak I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might SAVE some.Lord forgive me for being so blunt I am sorry we as men cannot come to peace at the fact that you hands at work have put discernment among us Lord I am stupid in faith but I know that through you I am forgiven thankyou lord for all that yo do in all of our lives.Lord reach out and touch these two Churches make them one strong Church with your presence known.Lord take this debt away in Jesus name Amen.


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## JB0704 (Nov 16, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> Like taking on another Churches debt would Jesus turn his back on this type of situation I think he would embrace it with open arms.



Nah, I think Jesus would have given them a ticket to see Dave Ramsey.......

Debt is bad. Not sure if accepting another's debt is Biblical when you are advised not to incur your own.  Just thinking here........


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## Greaserbilly (Nov 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, I think Jesus would have given them a ticket to see Dave Ramsey.......
> 
> Debt is bad. Not sure if accepting another's debt is Biblical when you are advised not to incur your own.  Just thinking here........



Jesus was homeless and advised his followers to not take two tunics, even.

I doubt he'd watch people trying to crunch numbers to save a building.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 16, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Nah, I think Jesus would have given them a ticket to see Dave Ramsey.......
> 
> Debt is bad. Not sure if accepting another's debt is Biblical when you are advised not to incur your own.  Just thinking here........



Now thats funny...Debt in A Church can occur in many different ways for instance our nation is struggling.Who knows several people could have lost their jobs and just were not able to tithe.They could have over spent helping others things like this do happen.The Church will suffer if several people who tithe regularly loose their jobs due to this messed up economy.We always assume the worse surely the 2 Church's would not have merged if it were for poor handling of money.I do not know so therefore I will not say any thing negative.God must have a plan.We all have debt you cannot escape it.


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## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> Who knows several people could have lost their jobs and just were not able to tithe.They could have over spent helping others things like this do happen.The Church will suffer if several people who tithe regularly loose their jobs due to this messed up economy..



Well hold on, debt is a function of over extending yourself, living beyond your means.  We all do it (well most of us who have a mortgage do), but I am pretty sure there is a biblical case against it.  This is why, I believe, a church should be operated on a cash model, and only buy that which they have the money for.  Kind-of being an example for the rest of us.  I know this doesn't happen, and many churches go into debt to build buildings, etc.  But, folks not tithing would only cause debt if the church buys something they can't afford.



Ole Crip said:


> We always assume the worse surely the 2 Church's would not have merged if it were for poor handling of money.I do not know so therefore I will not say any thing negative.God must have a plan.We all have debt you cannot escape it.



I don't know the specifics either, but can say that a church with a large debt has not been very wise from a biblical perspective.  This might have implications about the leadership.  So the problems could go beyond the debt itself......

.....which is a very intelligent thing to explore when considering a merger.  I am not saying the merger was bad, but it makes sense to be apprehensive.

I just don't see that as stupid.


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## Ole Crip (Nov 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Well hold on, debt is a function of over extending yourself, living beyond your means.  We all do it (well most of us who have a mortgage do), but I am pretty sure there is a biblical case against it.  This is why, I believe, a church should be operated on a cash model, and only buy that which they have the money for.  Kind-of being an example for the rest of us.  I know this doesn't happen, and many churches go into debt to build buildings, etc.  But, folks not tithing would only cause debt if the church buys something they can't afford.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gtparts (Nov 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Nope.  _We_ are not.  You are intentionally offending people.  Is that Godly or of God?
> 
> The problem was not change, it was absorbing debt.  Seems like an intelligent consideration to me......but, maybe I am stupid.





Ole Crip said:


> Now thats funny...Debt in A Church can occur in many different ways for instance our nation is struggling.Who knows several people could have lost their jobs and just were not able to tithe.They could have over spent helping others things like this do happen.The Church will suffer if several people who tithe regularly loose their jobs due to this messed up economy.We always assume the worse surely the 2 Church's would not have merged if it were for poor handling of money.I do not know so therefore I will not say any thing negative.God must have a plan.We all have debt you cannot escape it.



First, it is almost universal that those who lack in spiritual maturity take offense when challenged to grow. The kicked dog is the first to bark. The message needs to be tendered. But, how the message is delivered is almost as important. Let him, who has ears to hear, hear. 

Second, we have to recognize that all debt is not bad. When we are lost, we do not recognize our indebtedness. The check to pay off our indebtedness was written in His blood, on a cross. When we are redeemed by His salvation, our sin debt is paid, but there remains an obligation to Him, we can never repay. We, therefore, are all debtors in a sense. Our motivation must not be one of "squaring" our debt to God, but responding to His grace out of love for Him and the things He loves. Two points are clear. 
1)To whom much is given, much is required. 
2)One, who is forgiven much, loves much, while the one who is forgiven little, loves little. 

On a more temporal plane, many churches experienced growth that caused them to undertake greater commitments. Now, many of those churches are experiencing a contraction of funding due to the economy. Scripture tells us that some newer churches, apparently in somewhat better situations, collected for the church in Jerusalem. The essence of the Christian faith is meeting the needs of others, beginning with God's provision for us and extending to our ministry to others. 

Merging churches may not be the will of God and may not have the desired results. Perhaps the solution that best serves the two bodies is for the one to give in order to relieve the debt of the other. Either way, it is most important that all members be prayed up and NOT for their own will to be done, but His.

And, from my perspective, JB, "absorbing debt" is change. God sees compassion for what it is. In His economy, it may be the farthest thing from foolishness.


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## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2011)

gtparts said:


> And, from my perspective, JB, "absorbing debt" is change. God sees compassion for what it is. In His economy, it may be the farthest thing from foolishness.



Maybe so, maybe not.  A wise man, I think, would attempt to discern.   My point was not that it was wrong, only that it is a good reason for pause.  A major concern in all this is that the appointed elders were not on board.  Why were they elders if their discernment was not trusted?

As far as debt goes, I am not sure how I follow forgivness of sins is applied to actual monetary debt.

There could be good in the situation, but there could be bad.  Is it God at work, or something else?  A person has to decide which is which.


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## JB0704 (Nov 17, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> I see your point.I could have used a little less harsh of a word I just see alot of self indulgence in the church and in most cases it it the older people of the church.They do not like change they are contempt getting their fill and to heck with everyone else.The Church I attend fell hard into debt the last couple of years.We are big on missions and helping our community.We have a food bank.We work ball games for the schools and parents we do gift wraps gas buy downs water giveaways fan giveaways and so on......We incurred our debt from helping out and from the poor economy from job losses. All we are trying is to walk as Jesus walked.This is just an example.The Church is back on track. God has his way of making things right.



Its all good.  And thats cool that your church helps out so much.  And even better that y'all were able to get back on track.

The times I have seen churches go into debt were relevant to buildings.  I once saw a church refinance their mortgage, then use the monthly savings to finance asthetic stuff, not additions, just appearances.  All the while, the benevolence fund ran out way before year end.  That is my concern with church debt.


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 17, 2011)

Ole Crip said:


> A vision team is a team of people in the church who plan events.They are the people who plan evangelism.And how they are going to evangelise to better serve God.The focus of a vision team is to walk as Jesus walked.For instance how can they help a community or say another Church who is struggling.Like taking on another Churches debt would Jesus turn his back on this type of situation I think he would embrace it with open arms.Mission,Church gatherings,Reaching a community,Touching lives in need,all these things are the focus of a vision team.



In the area I live in, a vision team is voted upon by the church. Then this team "polls' the church to get ideas of what out of the norm to do. Then they compile the ideas. The last church I was at came up with this. Start a spanish service. This is what many of the "competition" is doing. Get stickers for members cars. This has almost become stylish around here. Start a summer kids ministry, so parents don't have to pay for daycare. Not very spiritual but better than 8 years ago when they decided we needed a weight room. The reason that it has been taken from the deacons is because they are hard headed and the pastor can get his way better if they come from the pews. Before you get mad, this was how it was where I come from. I hope not where you come from


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## gtparts (Nov 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Maybe so, maybe not.  A wise man, I think, would attempt to discern.   My point was not that it was wrong, only that it is a good reason for pause.  A major concern in all this is that the appointed elders were not on board.  Why were they elders if their discernment was not trusted?
> 
> As far as debt goes, I am not sure how I follow forgivness of sins is applied to actual monetary debt.
> 
> There could be good in the situation, but there could be bad.  Is it God at work, or something else?  A person has to decide which is which.



And a man who prides himself in being wise has already fallen. 

It would be interesting to know exactly what they (the elders) had in mind as an alternative. The pharisees were the lawyers of their day, having the highest degree of education available. They were almost universally deceived and deceiving concerning the things of God and due almost entirely to two things. The first was a poor or non-existent relationship with the living God; the second, a pride that ancestry (parentage) and a knowledge of the law assured them of not falling. Perhaps the elders began to believe their own press.

As to debt, the parallel between monetary debt and obligation is simple. The Samaritan knew nothing of the Jew other than his physical need. Perhaps in the months before, the two may have met with the Jew spitting and cursing the Samaritan. We do not know. We do know that the Samaritan extended his purse and more to meet the needs of a stranger. Tell me, what did the Jew owe the Samaritan? What was the nature of his debt? Was it by his own doing that he came under obligation?

And what of the Samaritan? Did he weigh the time he'd certainly lose? The financial cost? Whether the victim could or would ever pay him back? Sometimes we over-think things, looking for a loophole, when we know what the right action to take is. Regardless, God can take our worst situations, our most dire predicaments, our most obvious failings, and work it to the good for those that love him. God can and does use debt for his purpose and His glory.


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## alphachief (Nov 18, 2011)

Easy...pray for the Lord's guidence.  He'll either open your heart to the new situation...or guide you somewhere else.


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## Phoelix (Nov 18, 2011)

Ya'll come on over to Westridge in Dallas, Ga....Hwy 92, between GA 120 and East Paulding drive


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