# Using Violence to Escape



## GunnSmokeer (Nov 24, 2018)

Suppose you are visiting central Africa, where  "the law" doesn't mean much, and you know it's dangerous.
Your tour guide betrays you and ties you up and sells you to slave traders at the marketplace of a medium-sized town-- big enough to have some trade and commerce going on, but small enough that the government does not have any police or soldiers there to enforce the law.

You are sold to an Arab who takes you to some northern African country and puts you in leg irons, and orders you to be a field hand.
You want to escape, but have no opportunity.
After some months, everyone realizes you are a very good worker and well-behaved. You are given a new job of being a handyman and Mr. fix-it for the rich Arab's ranch and its several buildings. 

You now have access to tools with which you can cut off your chains and make yourself free. 
But in order to flee the property and get to the nearest city from which you can call the authorities for help, you'll have to steal a vehicle and some water.
The vehicles are guarded, and you cannot think of a way to steal one without taking-out the guard.
You are physically strong enough to do it, even in leg irons, if you catch the guard by surprise and use one of your knives or hammers or hatchets on him.

THE QUESTION IS:  Can you do this, morally, and righteously in the eyes of God?

My first inclination is to say YES, of course you can. You are a crime victim.  Kidnapping, false imprisonment, etc. All felonies. A violent assault on you started your captivity.  Of course you can use violence if that is necessary to escape.

But, I asked other Christians at church about Joseph, who was thrown in a well by his brothers, whose brothers seriously debated killing him, but then decided to sell him into slavery instead...

... could JOSEPH have used deadly force to free himself from the custody of the first group of traders who happened to be passing by?  
Could Joseph has struck down an Egyptian officer or member of the household staff of Potipher, to whom he was resold?
Could he have done any of that violence of his own initiative, and escaped as a matter of self-preservation, in accordance with his natural human rights and natural law?

The folks at church universally said NO.  Doing so would be going against God's plan for him.  

I SAY THAT JOSEPH,  AT THAT TIME, KNEW NOTHING OF THAT PLAN or how things would turn out.  Why would it be evil, or just not righteous, to slay those holding him captive so that he could escape?

What do you say, either about Joseph (a young Joseph, only aged 17 or whatever he was, recently sold into slavery and WITHOUT the great power and prestige he'd later have as second-in-command in Egypt) or about a hypothetical tourist in Africa in modern times, being betrayed and sold?


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2018)

I'm not sure Joseph could change his own destiny as that would alter the future of Israel's lineage and that of Jesus.


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## Spineyman (Nov 24, 2018)

I assure you that no one can alter God's plan, whatsoever comes to pass is God's will, and if the Lord gives you the ability to free yourself then you are perfectly legal to do so. If the Lord chooses to not open the doors up for you to go then He will give you the grace to endure it.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> I assure you that no one can alter God's plan, whatsoever comes to pass is God's will, and if the Lord gives you the ability to free yourself then you are perfectly legal to do so. If the Lord chooses to not open the doors up for you to go then He will give you the grace to endure it.



Then Joseph should have tried to escape? What about Jeremiah persuading the Jews to not resist Babylon? To remain captive.

Jeremiah 29:11
“For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.”


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## Spineyman (Nov 24, 2018)

I did not say that or even infer it. They did exactly what they believed God wanted them to do. If God opens the door for someone to escape, then by all means do so.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> I did not say that or even infer it. They did exactly what they believed God wanted them to do. If God opens the door for someone to escape, then by all means do so.



So Joseph should have tried to escape? To see if God had give him the ability to free himself? To see if God had opened the door?

I think that is what the OP was asking, if an individual would be wrong to try? To see if God was opening the door. If not then the door wouldn't open but at least see if it's open.

To see if escape was part of God's plan.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 24, 2018)

There is a common misconception that God's will and God's plan are one and the same.  The Bible shows us over and over and over again that they are not the same.  

God's will was that Adam and Eve lived in the perfect home he created for them,  walking side by side with him daily, to live eternally,  and to not eat the forbidden fruit.  

God's plan was that after man violated his will, a path to redemption was provided through Jesus in his life, death,  and resurrection. 

God's universal will is presented through His commandments. When man violates them and faces the natural and spiritual consequences,  God in His mercy still had a plan to turn things around.  He is God of our failures as well as our successes and when we choose to turn back to his will,  his plans kick in in response.  

That being said,  God used the evil of Joseph's wrongful imprisonment to lift him up to a position of blessing and power and introduce the one true God to pharaoh. He planned around Joseph's brother's violation if his will, and around potipher's wife's violation of his will.

Paul was beaten and imprisoned,  by acts contrary to God's will, but freed supernaturally by God's plan and God used the event to bring salvation to the guards in the prison.  Ultimately Paul was imprisoned again,  and beheaded-- murdered against God's will--but he reached many with the gospel by God's plan. 

The hypothetical situation is certainly a spiritual challenge.  On the one hand,  God gives us the right to self defense and self preservation.  On the other hand,  God can also use our misfortune to draw others to him who would otherwise have no exposure to his word.  I think it would depend.  If the captors are hospitable,  it's an opportunity to show them christ in your actions as joseph did.  If they are cruel and torture their captives,  perhaps violence is the better choice to free the innocents they force to live in misery.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2018)

I think though what Jeremiah was teaching is that sometimes one must accept that God is placing one in captivity for a period of time only to rescue them later.
The Babylon captivity of Judah. To just accept it as God's plan. To not escape. Perhaps as part of a punishment.

To except the grace not to escape.  To have the faith to endure.

Still though unless told otherwise by a prophet or the Holy Spirit, I think we should try to escape. To even kill our aggressors if necessary.

To overturn them in elections by voting. Then if it's part of God's plan for us to live under their rule, it will be done. But until we know, we must try and escape. Perhaps by voting and not killing. 
Per God's will and plan.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 24, 2018)

ryanh487 said:


> There is a common misconception that God's will and God's plan are one and the same.  The Bible shows us over and over and over again that they are not the same.
> 
> God's will was that Adam and Eve lived in the perfect home he created for them,  walking side by side with him daily, to live eternally,  and to not eat the forbidden fruit.
> 
> ...



The Word was with God before time. I don't see how God's plan can be different from his will. The Son is eternal, therefore he has to be a part of God's will and plan.
It's not like Adam sinned and therefore God had a Son the moment in time Adam sinned.

I don't think man can change God's will or plan.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 24, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Word was with God before time. I don't see how God's plan can be different from his plan. The Son is eternal, therefore he has to be a part of God's will and plan.
> It's not like Adam sinned and therefore God had a Son the moment in time Adam sinned.
> 
> I don't think man can change God's will or plan.



God does not contradict himself.  If he willed adam and eve to eat the fruit,  he wouldn't have commanded them not to.  He knows everything that's going to happen,  and what will be contrary to his will,  but it doesn't mean that he wills us to sin. That would be contrary to who he is.  God cannot judge that which he willed,  it would not be just.  He judges that which is contrary to his will, which is what makes it worthy of judgment.


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2018)

Of which salvation the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace _that should come_ unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


Of all that Adam _once had_ (and how we may yet be tempted to foolish jealousy...and we sometimes are) he remains to us who believe what was fashioned of the dust of the earth. We are told, and believe (if we indeed do) that "The first man _is_ of the earth, earthy: the second man _is_ the Lord from heaven."

"is the Lord from Heaven".

It's far more important that be left to resonate than I say anything more.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Genesis 46:3
"I am God, the God of your father," the voice said. "Do not be afraid to go down to Egypt, for there I will make your family into a great nation.

Back to the OP, Jacob had the answer from God to go to Egypt. Joseph had the answer not to escape slavery.
Jeremiah had the answer from God for Judah not to escape captivity.

If today Christians were suddenly put in bondage by a new Babylon. Say a particular political party, nation, or other religion, we should try to overcome that bondage. We should fight that slavery. Until? Until we know or hear from God that that was his plan.

Perhaps God's plan would be for us to be in that bondage for 4 or 8 years. Until the next election. Maybe for our punishment or to teach us a lesson. Then God would lead us out of that bondage.
He would send us a Joseph or Jeremiah.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

Joseph in bondage, Judah in bondage. I guess there is two schools of thought on this being God's will and plan or man's will and God's plan.

Does God's plan really change as man's will changes? Does God go to plan B when man's will goes to plan B? I don't think so but I guess it's possible.

Still though if I am captured, I'm going to assume it's God's plan for me to escape unless he tells me otherwise. I'm going to assume it's his will and plan for me to escape until he tells me not to fight that particular trial and tribulation.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

ryanh487 said:


> God does not contradict himself.  If he willed adam and eve to eat the fruit,  he wouldn't have commanded them not to.  He knows everything that's going to happen,  and what will be contrary to his will,  but it doesn't mean that he wills us to sin. That would be contrary to who he is.  God cannot judge that which he willed,  it would not be just.  He judges that which is contrary to his will, which is what makes it worthy of judgment.



Still though the Word was with God before time. Way before Adam and Eve were ever created. God's will and plan were eternal. The Son wasn't plan B.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Still though the Word was with God before time. Way before Adam and Eve were ever created. God's will and plan were eternal. The Son wasn't plan B.



No,  christ was in no way plan B. But if man had obeyed God's will,  there would have been no need for a plan for salvation.  God knew his will and he knew man would go against it,  and planned accordingly.  Man's fall was not a surprise that required an adjustment in his plan,  but it was also not God's will.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

ryanh487 said:


> No,  christ was in no way plan B. But if man had obeyed God's will,  there would have been no need for a plan for salvation.  God knew his will and he knew man would go against it,  and planned accordingly.  Man's fall was not a surprise that required an adjustment in his plan,  but it was also not God's will.



Then it is possible for God to have based his plan on the will of man. The Word was with God eternally because God foreknew of man's will. He based His plan of salvation on this foreknowledge.


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## ryanh487 (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then it is possible for God to have based his plan on the will of man. The Word was with God eternally because God foreknew of man's will. He based His plan of salvation on this foreknowledge.


Exactly. 

God's will is perfect.  Man's will is flawed.  Man has free will,  we couldn't truly love God without it.  God just knew our choices before we were even created to make them and in his mercy he planned around our sinful choices so that we could be reconciled to his holiness and still choose not to be separated from him for eternity because of past sin.


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## Spineyman (Nov 25, 2018)

ryanh487 said:


> Exactly.
> 
> God's will is perfect.  Man's will is flawed. * Man has free will*,  we couldn't truly love God without it.  God just knew our choices before we were even created to make them and in his mercy he planned around our sinful choices so that we could be reconciled to his holiness and still choose not to be separated from him for eternity because of past sin.


So you think we have free will huh? You might want to study that a bit. What exactly does the word say about us being dead in our tresspasses and sin. Now if you are a dead man unable to seek after God of his own free will then how in the world does this free will work. We are dead right?  Was Lazarus dead when Christ showed up on the scene? Did Lazarus have the free will to remain in the grave when the Son of the Living God called him to come forth? I submit to you our understanding of free will is skewed . When Jesus Christ stood in front of dead Lazarus and called him forth, you can bet your sweet petunia that he had zero choice and came forth pronto! Salvation is exactly the same, we are dead and the Son of the Living God calls us forth to respond to the Spirits call. You can also bet your sweet petunia we respond the exact same way as Lazarus did. We are brought forth to newness of life and old things pass away and behold all things have become new. Dead men don't respond to anything unless they are given life to do so!


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## Spineyman (Nov 25, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> So Joseph should have tried to escape? To see if God had give him the ability to free himself? To see if God had opened the door?
> 
> I think that is what the OP was asking, if an individual would be wrong to try? To see if God was opening the door. If not then the door wouldn't open but at least see if it's open.
> 
> To see if escape was part of God's plan.


 God has a plan for each and every one of His Children that He calls to salvation. No two are alike, so no Joseph shouldn't have tried to escape but some in fact did. So again whatsoever comes to pass is God's revealed will. Every child of God has a different calling on their lives, and yes some will die a martyr' s death!Some will go free.


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## apoint (Nov 25, 2018)

I offer this.  Someone kicks in your front door to rape your children and kill all witnesses in your house. I for one am going to protect my family with any means possible.  I for one will never submit to evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Nov 25, 2018)

I was thinking of Adam and God's will vs God's plan. God placed Adam in a paradise. Like a child in a room full of toys. Then he says; "don't play with this toy over here."
100% sure it was his plan. I'm about 80% sure it was his will knowing how humans react to a "wet paint" sign.

The Word was already with God. His mission, it you will, was already part of the plan. Perhaps it was already part of God's will as well.

God may have wanted man to fail to show the need of his grace. The need of man's faith. Really when you think about it, even if Adam didn't fail, the next man would, or the 20th man would. Why not just get it over with and accept God's plan of grace?


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## Israel (Nov 26, 2018)

The same grace that shows a man is not God, is the same grace that preserves an identity with which man may now relate to God.

There is an awful price to pay in idolatry.

I have no idea whether it is the wise or the foolish...who take a lesson from this:


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## apoint (Nov 28, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was thinking of Adam and God's will vs God's plan. God placed Adam in a paradise. Like a child in a room full of toys. Then he says; "don't play with this toy over here."
> 100% sure it was his plan. I'm about 80% sure it was his will knowing how humans react to a "wet paint" sign.
> 
> The Word was already with God. His mission, it you will, was already part of the plan. Perhaps it was already part of God's will as well.
> ...



God knows the beginning and the end. So there is free will and predestined. We are not perfect because of free will so we will fail God. Nice to keep it simple as God intended. Man complicates everything.


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