# decreasing turkey load effectiveness



## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

All this talk in recent months about decreasing pattern density and effectiveness in turkey loads is reversing a long term trend, and is quite interesting.  

Since the beginning of modern spring gobbler hunting, the goal of ammo manufacturers and turkey choke manufacturers has been to come up with better turkey loads and chokes to give you a denser pattern of better penetrating shot at extended ranges.  

The serious old timer hunters used to shoot anything from 7-1/2s to 2s, and didn't have a whole lot of options.   If we are to believe the accounts of folks like Charlie Elliott, they used to do things like try 50 yd shots with #2s and full chokes, and didn't hesitate shooting at flying birds.  Anything smaller than a 12 gauge was not a turkey gun, for good reason.  Ammo and choke was the limiting factor for them.  

The NWTF even started up their still target championships with one of the stated goals being the development of better ammunition and chokes for turkey hunting. 

Guys who today shoot #6 or #4 lead, for example, originally chose that load because, at one time, they determined that it was the most effective load to use on turkeys with a particular gun.  

But with the 12g/cc hevishot, HD, etc, and now the 15g/cc heavyweight and the 18g/cc shot that has been developed in recent years, those loads that once were determined "best" are now well down towards the back of the pack in terms of pattern integrity, penetration, and overall turkey load effectiveness in any measurable terms.  Of course, there is always the sentimental attachment to those older loads and guns etc that is important for some.

But sentimentality aside, there is no serious person that will argue that #6 or #4 lead is the best load available to them today.  Yet folks are proposing those kinds of patterns as being ideal, in recent months.

That brings us to discussions like this which will continue, I'm sure.



> Originally Posted by hawglips:
> #6 in 18g/cc shot???? For turkeys???





MKW said:


> Yep, for turkeys...imagine that



I don't think anyone who is familiar with TSS would advise shot that large for turkeys, unless state laws prohibit anything smaller.

It would be like shooting lead BBs in terms of penetration, though you'd have a lot more pellets in the pattern.  It might make a good body shooting load.  

But it would be about like driving a Ferrari, and having a governor installed to keep you from going over 45 mph.  It'll get you where you want to go, but is quite a waste.



> Originally Posted by hawglips:
> That would be a good coyote load.





MKW said:


> Are you saying that 125 hits in a 10" circle at 40yrds is not enough for turkeys??
> 
> Mike



I'm saying that #9 TSS is more than enough for turkeys.  

But if one is seeking to handicap themselves with their turkey loads by limiting their 10" circle hits at 40 yds, there are a lot of ways to do it.

One way to handicap down to that 10" count would be, instead of shooting a hard kicking 12 ga. 2 oz. load of lead #4s, one could shoot a 3/4 oz. load (in whatever gauge) of TSS 9s to achieve the same result.

For example, here's my 3/4 oz. .410 load pattern at 40 yds.  I think this is about what you are looking for in the 100 - 125 hit range, and you could tote a lighter gun and would have very shooter friendly recoil that even a little kid could handle with no problem.







It would be difficult to get this kind of 3/4 oz. 40 yd pattern with adequate penetration, with something besides TSS.

Another way to handicap yourself down to 100-125 hits in the 10" circle at 40 yds would be to open up your choke.  

The ONLY reason for turkey chokes is to increase pattern density and thus maximize the range of the ammo.  That's why they were/are developed.  No other reason.  Just range.  So, why bother with a lot of choke if one wants to limit the ammo and range?  

You could shoot a skeet or cylinder choke with a TSS load, and have a 3 to 4 foot killing pattern at 40 yds.   That might be one way to eliminate those misses close in we read about every year, while still giving you "good enough" at 40 yds.  And that would be very difficult to do with something besides TSS.

And as I've pointed out, with TSS, you can have your cake and eat it to with the range thing.  (refer back to my "CM" load comments.)  That would be much more difficult with less dense shot.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Hal, if you could, in another thread, please state the benefits of TSS at ranges 40yds and in.



Refer to post #68 in the tom vs hen thread, and the above post in this one.


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## MKW (Nov 18, 2010)

Hal,
  I'll tell you the same thing that I tell telemarketers that call the house...NOT INTERESTED!! 

Mike


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 18, 2010)

'Lips, my statements regarding lead were that I have no problem killing birds with lead as long as they are 40yds and in. I have no reason not to believe you stay within those yardage ranges however I suspect the main appeal to others is the possibilty of taking birds at 50, 60yds and out. I can't remeber where you posted it but I remeber reading that there were some confirmed very long range kills, somewhere in the 70-80yd range if I remeber correctly. At those ranges one might as well be using a rifle.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

MKW said:


> Hal,
> I'll tell you the same thing that I tell telemarketers that call the house...NOT INTERESTED!!
> 
> Mike



You ask me questions, I answer those questions you asked of me, and then you pretend you didn't solicit the response from me?

That's more than a little


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> 'Lips, my statements regarding lead were that I have no problem killing birds with lead as long as they are 40yds and in. I have no reason not to believe you stay within those yardage ranges however I suspect the main appeal to others is the possibilty of taking birds at 50, 60yds and out. I can't remeber where you posted it but I remeber reading that there were some confirmed very long range kills, somewhere in the 70-80yd range if I remeber correctly. At those ranges one might as well be using a rifle.



I think I should try to clarify one thing here.

I DON'T CARE AT ALL what anybody thinks about how far I choose to kill a turkey.  I seek NO ONE'S approval about how I hunt, what I shoot, what gun I tote, what calls I use, what socks I have on in the woods, whether I shave before the hunt, or anything else.  I hope that is clear.  I hunt turkeys for the rush that only turkey hunting gives me -- not your's or anyone else's approval.  

Since developing the loads I currently shoot, I don't limit my shots to the 40 yd arbitrary, magic line out of any concern for what internet turkey whisperers might think.  It's just my style that seems to drive that.  It's how I was taught to hunt, and it's how I prefer to do it.  I don't like to hunt fields, I don't like decoys, blinds, etc.  I like to be in the woods, and don't mind thick woods.   I try to set up so that the turkey comes looking for me, and once he's to where he can see me, and I him, he's in range.   It's about hunting style, not some silly 40 yd limitation that means absolutely nothing other than the gun/ammo limitations that established it back in the day.

If I find myself in a situation where I have a 60 yd shot one day, I won't worry AT ALL about taking it if I feel like doing so.  My gun/ammo set up is more than adequate to the task (unless I'm toting the .410 that day, and then I'll be back to an actual 40 yd limitation).  And I will enjoy the hunt every bit as much as I did with the one that ended up in me taking the under 40 yd shot.

I turkey hunt because it's really fun to locate, set up, call in, and shoot a gobbler.  Whether killing one at 40 yds or 41 yds or 50 yds -- it's still just as fun.


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## MKW (Nov 18, 2010)

*...*

I'm not interested in hearing anything about how I should be shooting #9s at turkeys. I look for 125-150 hits consistantly  in the 10" circle at 40yrds. As I said before, I want to achieve that with the BIGGEST shot size possible. My set-up at the moment has me completely satisfied. 

Mike


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## nhancedsvt (Nov 18, 2010)

I don't have a dog in this fight...anymore, but I'm going to give my opinion on the matter.

I wounded a bird last year with #9 TSS. Had it not been for the #5 Hevishot that I loaded behind it "just in case" that bird would not have had a humane death.

I couldn't figure it out. I loaded the shells to Hal's specs, shot them at paper at different ranges, and was more than pleased with the pattern of the shells. I had great numbers and an even pattern throughout from 20-40 yds. I thought I had found the ultimate hunting load.

My first opportunity at a bird with the shot was a bird that came out at 30 yds. There were no obstructions in my way and I had a clear shot. I squeezed the trigger and the bird hit the ground. I hit the bird solidly, but when I stood up to go claim my trophy, the bird got up and took off running full speed. I unloaded a Hevi 5 on it and dropped it in its tracks.

I came on here looking for answers and there was a variety of reasons why the TSS didn't work... my choke was too tight (even though it patterned fine), the load was wrong (even though it was loaded to the exact specs I was given), and a variety of other reasons. My point is, it seems like TSS was the best thing going until I actually had to use it. I'm not doubting that some are having great success with it but from my experience it's not adequate. I'm currently shooting Hevi 6s which is plenty out of my gun for any bird I encounter and I've been pleased so far. I've sold all of my reloading equipment and will continue using this until I find something better. 

Shoot what you want, but I thought another side of the story should be told from someone with experience. This isn't a bashing post, just my experience. Take it for what it's worth...


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

MKW said:


> I'm not interested in hearing anything about how I should be shooting #9s at turkeys. I look for 125-150 hits consistantly  in the 10" circle at 40yrds. As I said before, I want to achieve that with the BIGGEST shot size possible. My set-up at the moment has me completely satisfied.
> 
> Mike



No one is saying you should be doing anything, so please, quit pretending they are.  You should expect your questions to get answered, and your statements to be responded to if someone cares about the subject you're speaking or asking about.

Forgive me for pointing this out, but if you seriously wanted to limit yourself to 125 hits in the 10" circle at 40 yds with the "biggest" shot possible, you wouldn't be shooting what you are shooting and what you shot before that.   You're saying, "do as I say and not as I do."  So, it's hard for me to take your words seriously here.

It seems like up until TSS came along and you no longer had the best 10" 40 yd 20 gauge pattern around, you were THE number one proponent of the highest 10" circle count as possible.  Now, you're suddenly a proponent of large pellets and patterns with lots more empty space in them.   It is curious to see such a 180 degree reversal in philosophy in so short a time.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 18, 2010)

nhancedsvt said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight...anymore, but I'm going to give my opinion on the matter.
> 
> I wounded a bird last year with #9 TSS. Had it not been for the #5 Hevishot that I loaded behind it "just in case" that bird would not have had a humane death.
> 
> ...



Heck at that range I'm sure they had you believing you could mow through a century old oak and still kill that turkey. I'm not suprised they defered the blame for failure to you. I can't imagine stories such as yours are good for business.


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## MKW (Nov 18, 2010)

*...*

As I told you before, I have grown out of the desire to put a bunch of tiny holes in paper. There is no point to it. I just want to kill turkeys. I don't know how I can put it in any simpler terms so you can understand it. 
What I shoot now(Federal Hvyweight #7s) does everything that I want it to do. I quit shooting Nitros because they are not true to size and a lot of the shot is WAY smaller than #7, same with Hevi13s. I like that the Federals are uniform in size. I get denser patterns with both Nitros and Hevi13s, but I choose Federals for this reason. And they are consistantly in the 140s. These are the only 3 turkey loads that I have found that will do what I need, but I prefer the Federals. Since EnvironMetal screwed up the original Hevi13 #6 load, I haven't found a turkey load in #6 That will consistantly stay above 125.

I'm pretty sure that we are both waisting our time with this discussion. I believe our heads are of the same density.


Mike


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

MKW said:


> As I told you before, I have grown out of the desire to put a bunch of tiny holes in paper. There is no point to it. I just want to kill turkeys. I don't know how I can put it in any simpler terms so you can understand it.
> What I shoot now(Federal Hvyweight #7s) does everything that I want it to do. I quit shooting Nitros because they are not true to size and a lot of the shot is WAY smaller than #7, same with Hevi13s. I like that the Federals are uniform in size. I get denser patterns with both Nitros and Hevi13s, but I choose Federals for this reason. And they are consistantly in the 140s. These are the only 3 turkey loads that I have found that will do what I need, but I prefer the Federals. Since EnvironMetal screwed up the original Hevi13 #6 load, I haven't found a turkey load in #6 That will consistantly stay above 125.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that we are both waisting our time with this discussion. I believe our heads are of the same density.
> ...



As I've said on here many times, all holes in paper are not equal.  A 12g/cc Nitro #7 (actually there is no such thing, they are 7-1/2s, ranging down to size 9 shot) is not NEAR as effective a pellet as the 15g/cc Federal heavyweight #7.  And much farther from a 18g/cc #7.   And it's not about paper -- it's about what's happening out there with what you shooting.  And there is no better way to determine the pattern than  with the paper.   And that's why I spent so much time and effort testing the penetration of the various pellets, in addition to the paper.  Because all holes are not equal.

Your Federal heavyweight #7 is a much better penetrating pellet than Hevi-13 #6s, plus you get a lot more pellets in the shell also.  So, you're kicking some serious Hevi-13 #6 butt with that load.

That's probably what I'd be shooting in 20 ga. if I couldn't load up the 18g/cc shot.   But I'd prefer those 15g/cc pellets in #8 as that would be a better turkey shell.


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## Gaswamp (Nov 18, 2010)

Hal is 100 in a ten inch circle adequate?


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

nhancedsvt said:


> I don't have a dog in this fight...anymore, but I'm going to give my opinion on the matter.
> 
> I wounded a bird last year with #9 TSS. Had it not been for the #5 Hevishot that I loaded behind it "just in case" that bird would not have had a humane death.
> 
> ...



Steve, NO WAY on God's green earth did you hit the bird solidly at 30 yds, or 60 yds, with that load and he would get up.  

No way would you hit a coyote solidly with that load at 30 yds, and he would get up.

Sorry.  You didn't hit the bird solidly.   That I know.  You hit the bird solidly with that shell, and he won't flop at 30 yds.  You hit the bird solidly with that shell at 60 yds, and he's not going anywhere.  

Steve, prior to this bird, how many turkeys had you "hit solidly" with any shotgun shell?  How many had you seen killed at any range, with any shell, prior to this bird you "hit solidly" at 30 yds with a load that has killed three times that distance?  



nhancedsvt said:


> I came on here looking for answers and there was a variety of reasons why the TSS didn't work... my choke was too tight (even though it patterned fine), the load was wrong (even though it was loaded to the exact specs I was given), and a variety of other reasons. My point is, it seems like TSS was the best thing going until I actually had to use it. I'm not doubting that some are having great success with it but from my experience it's not adequate.



"Not adequate"???



It's "not adequate" for you at 30 yds, but it's adequate for other guys at 20 yds, 30 yds, 40 yds, 50 yds, 60 yds, 75 yds and 90 yds.??

How does one explain that?

The explanation is simple.   Operator error.   Rookie mistake.

You should have listened about the choke also.  And you should have listened when I told you that you were making a big mistake getting rid of your reloading equipment based on this incident.



nhancedsvt said:


> I'm currently shooting Hevi 6s which is plenty out of my gun for any bird I encounter and I've been pleased so far. I've sold all of my reloading equipment and will continue using this until I find something better.



As I told you at the time, you made a big mistake if you are concerned about shooting something better.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

Gaswamp said:


> Hal is 100 in a ten inch circle adequate?



It's a pretty good standard for comparisons, but it depends on what you are looking for.  

I always count a 20" circle at 40 yds. for hunting patterns.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Heck at that range I'm sure they had you believing you could mow through a century old oak and still kill that turkey. I'm not suprised they defered the blame for failure to you. I can't imagine stories such as yours are good for business.



Mzl, you should have heard Jamie's story about the cat he shot at the year before.   That was way better than Steve's "hit solidly" at 30 yds but he got up and ran story. 

Hey, does this mean you have settled on arguing that TSS is too weak and not enough range, instead of too strong and too much range that makes folks not want to work but take rifle shots?   

Which end of the spectrum are you going to argue from?  Is this saying "too weak" is your argument?  Is that your final answer?  You're just like TC was -- unable to make up the mind about which contradictory stance to take.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 18, 2010)

Hal, I think I made it clear why I don't like it.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Hal, I think I made it clear why I don't like it.



Well, you made it clear that you don't like it.   But you go back and forth from "it's microscopic too small not adequate bounces off" to "it's too strong long range makes people want to shoot 100 yds".  

fRAnNKly, I have no idea which, if either, of the above positions is the one you are sincere about.


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## silentK (Nov 18, 2010)

hawglips said:


> but it's adequate for other guys at  50 yds, 60 yds, 75 yds and 90 yds.??



redikulous...


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## nhancedsvt (Nov 18, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Mzl, you should have heard Jamie's story about the cat he shot at the year before.   That was way better than Steve's "hit solidly" at 30 yds but he got up and ran story.
> 
> Hey, does this mean you have settled on arguing that TSS is too weak and not enough range, instead of too strong and too much range that makes folks not want to work but take rifle shots?
> 
> Which end of the spectrum are you going to argue from?  Is this saying "too weak" is your argument?  Is that your final answer?  You're just like TC was -- unable to make up the mind about which contradictory stance to take.



Not exactly sure what that means Hal. I assume that if a turkey hits the ground and starts flopping that they're "hit solidly." 
I halfway expected the bashing, that's why I discussed this with you through PMs and never brought it up until now Hal. Just like when Jamie posted his experiences with it, you and others refuse to believe that TSS is not God's greatest gift to turkey hunting. It is not the end all, be all when it comes to ammo. I agree that its patterns are impressive but don't act so surprised when people have negative experiences with it. I wonder how many others have tried it with similar results... but I guess we'll never find that out.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

> It's "not adequate" for you at 30 yds, but it's adequate for other guys at 50 yds, 60 yds, 75 yds and 90 yds.??





silentK said:


> redikulous...



Yep.


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## MKW (Nov 18, 2010)

*...*

Fact is that there will be marginal hits of gobblers every spring and fall from many different guns shooting many different combos, BUT if those pellets were bigger, they MAY have anchored that bird right there. Penetration is not everything. Sometimes, I would think, bigger wound channels might make the difference. Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand but I do know that a #9 pellet is tiny.
Please forgive my logical thinking.

Mike


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

nhancedsvt said:


> Not exactly sure what that means Hal. I assume that if a turkey hits the ground and starts flopping that they're "hit solidly."
> I halfway expected the bashing, that's why I discussed this with you through PMs and never brought it up until now Hal. Just like when Jamie posted his experiences with it, you and others refuse to believe that TSS is not God's greatest gift to turkey hunting. It is not the end all, be all when it comes to ammo. I agree that its patterns are impressive but don't act so surprised when people have negative experiences with it. I wonder how many others have tried it with similar results... but I guess we'll never find that out.



Steve, it means you were and are not very experienced about what "hit solidly" looks like on a turkey.  It is physically impossible to hit a turkey at 30 yds "solidly" with a pattern that puts 300-400 pellets that travel all the way through the turkey -- bones and all -- and for him to get up and run away. 

Sorry.  It can't happen.   It is a physical impossibility.

Did you hit it with a couple pellets in a non-vital area somewhere other than his legs or anywhere around his central nervous system?   Probably.    I believe what you say you did and saw.

But did you hit it solidly?  Nope.  No way, no how.


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## hawglips (Nov 18, 2010)

MKW said:


> Fact is that there will be marginal hits of gobblers every spring and fall from many different guns shooting many different combos, BUT if those pellets were bigger, they MAY have anchored that bird right there. Penetration is not everything. Sometimes, I would think, bigger wound channels might make the difference. Maybe I'm just too stupid to understand but I do know that a #9 pellet is tiny.
> 
> Mike



My thinking is, if he had been shooting a larger less dense pellet, it would be like all those turkey hunting videos where they "miss" but if you watch in slow motion you see the feathers being hit by pellets, but the bird runs or flies off anyway.  He would have maybe never knew he hit the bird at all.

A larger, less dense pellet that doesn't bore in and punch through hard things as well may very well be more apt to bounce off if the angle is not optimum and it hits something hard like bones.  Or not get in deep enough to do much damage.  That's what I gathered from the sheet metal penetration tests.  

Another observartion was those two 90 yard birds that were killed where the small TSS went through their back, with nothing in the head or neck at all.  And only a few pellets hit both those birds, which is not surprising at that ridiculous range.  But the TSS went through the back bone, which is hard and at an angle making it harder still to punch through, at three times the range Steve is talking about.


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## MKW (Nov 18, 2010)

hawglips said:


> A larger, less dense pellet that doesn't bore in and punch through hard things as well may very well be more apt to bounce off if the angle is not optimum and it hits something hard like bones.  Or not get in deep enough to do much damage.



At 30yrds??? Please tell me you are not serious. 

Mike


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## Brad C. (Nov 18, 2010)

That's what I wanted to post.  But still some interesting reading.  I hate to see the differences in opinions from my way is better than yours.  But that is what makes these forums what they are and how we learn.


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## six (Nov 18, 2010)

I find this all kind of interesting and have a couple of serious questions concerning the BSS#9's and 18G vs. 12g ect.

Is the harder shot rougher on barrels?  And to achieve velocities capable of penetrating bone at 90 yards with the smaller shot, does this create higher pressures?  And if so are the pressures safe in all guns?


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## Newman (Nov 18, 2010)

I've just realized that TSS isn't good enough for me.  Why settle for 18g/cc when gold has a density of 19.3g/cc.


I'm melting all my wife's jewelry right now, and I'm making some #12 shot!!  It should be lethal out to at least 125 yards.


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## muckalee (Nov 19, 2010)

Newman said:


> I've just realized that TSS isn't good enough for me.  Why settle for 18g/cc when gold has a density of 19.3g/cc.
> 
> 
> I'm melting all my wife's jewelry right now, and I'm making some #12 shot!!  It should be lethal out to at least 125 yards.



That's a classic!!!  What would be even better is to be melting your x wife's jewelry right now. 
And I hear Federal Ammunition is down in Peru searching for a lost element that has 24g/cc.  It should be lethal with #18 shot out to 230 yards.  Initial reports are they can pack 4,330 pellets in a 3"magnum 12 gauge shell!!


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## trkyhntr70 (Nov 19, 2010)

MKW said:


> Hal,
> I'll tell you the same thing that I tell telemarketers that call the house...NOT INTERESTED!!
> 
> Mike



 That was funny right there..
I think this about the time of year Hal gets bored and starts thinkin bout turkey season.


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

six said:


> I find this all kind of interesting and have a couple of serious questions concerning the BSS#9's and 18G vs. 12g ect.
> 
> Is the harder shot rougher on barrels?



Compared to lead, yes.  

Like hevishot and steel, you want to make sure you shoot it out of barrels that can handle it.   And if you choke it tight, you will probably see a little scoring in your choke at some point. 

I load the shot with a lot more barrel protection than any of the factory hard shot (hevishot, heavyweight, steel, etc) shells use.

I've shot hundreds of rounds through the same barrel, and have yet to see any marks at all in it.



six said:


> And to achieve velocities capable of penetrating bone at 90 yards with the smaller shot, does this create higher pressures?  And if so are the pressures safe in all guns?



You need LESS velocity to get the greater penetration with the TSS shot.  High velocity is not necessary.  Density trumps speed.   The #9 TSS 20 ga. load going just over 1000 fps will kill out to 60 yds with no problem.  

I send my recipes off to the lab to get the pressures checked and verified.   For example, my 12 ga. 2 oz. load that is good to WAY out there, has the same pressures that a typical low brass dove or target load has.


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

MKW said:


> At 30yrds??? Please tell me you are not serious.
> 
> Mike



We must not be connecting here.  Of course I'm serious -- at any yardage, the pellet that penetrates less, and bounces off of hard material more, is likely to penetrate less and bounce off bone more.


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> I think this about the time of year Hal gets bored and starts thinkin bout turkey season.



I'm always thinking about turkey season.


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## MKW (Nov 19, 2010)

*...*



hawglips said:


> My thinking is, if he had been shooting a larger less dense pellet, it would be like all those turkey hunting videos where they "miss" but if you watch in slow motion you see the feathers being hit by pellets, but the bird runs or flies off anyway.  He would have maybe never knew he hit the bird at all.
> 
> A larger, less dense pellet that doesn't bore in and punch through hard things as well may very well be more apt to bounce off if the angle is not optimum and it hits something hard like bones.  Or not get in deep enough to do much damage.  That's what I gathered from the sheet metal penetration tests.



I thought we were talking about the situation in which a turkey was wounded by #9s at 30yrds?? At that range, any turkey load should work. Are you really suggesting that if he'd been shooting a load with bigger, but less dense pellets that it might have bounced off the turkey at 30yrds??
Sheet metal tests mean less than nothing when it comes to turkey hunting. Of course a harder/denser object will punch through sheet metal better. If turkeys start wearing helmets, I'll conact you for your load recipe.

Mike


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## Brad C. (Nov 19, 2010)

I have no dog in this fight nor am I taking sides to anyone, but I feel I must show what proof I have of what Hevi-13 #7's will do to a turkey at 45yds and maybe even 50yds.  Now I was first a little skeptical of going to 7's, but I felt confident of the results I was getting with these size pellets on how they blew very easily through the cardboard and burried themself into landscape timber pole I had the cardboard stapled too at 40yds.  So I gave them a try this spring.  Needless to say I don't plan on switching to anything else.  Some may say that I am full of it and that these results aren't possible, but I can assure you this bird was hit like a freight train.  

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=528303&highlight=hevi

When you hit a bird solidly with this load at 30yds to say 55yds with a pattern that shoots like this at 40yds with these Hevi-13 3" 2oz #7 loads, it is going to die regardless of who says 7's are too small for turkeys.  Here in MO we have a saying that seeing is believing.  I am a firm believer now.  

Below is the backside of a piece of cardboard that was shot at a tape measured 40yds.  I took a picture of the backside so you can better see the pattern.


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## Dupree (Nov 19, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Mzl, you should have heard Jamie's story about the cat he shot at the year before.   QUOTE]
> 
> he had it happen on a turkey also. Those loads looked great on paper, but the two living things that got shot with it ran off. Ill stick to my federal heavyweights.


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## deerslayer357 (Nov 19, 2010)

Well, I'm fairly new to the TSS stuff, but the friend that got me into it killed 3 birds with it last year.  All were bang-flops.  On one of them he misjudged the range in a field (he thought 40, but was almost 60), but the turkey still flopped and that was it.  

If people are using the same recipe and killing birds at 60 and beyond, I don't see how a turkey would run off after a solid hit at 30 yards.


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## Gadget (Nov 19, 2010)

4x4powerstrokesd said:


> he had it happen on a turkey also. Those loads looked great on paper, but the two living things that got shot with it ran off. Ill stick to my federal heavyweights.




The #7 heavyweight is harder hitting with more energy than TSS 9's, with the Shotshell ballistic calculator its has the difference being 7yds. I normally load TSS and heavyweight in 8's, the TSS 8's are devastating! but even the TSS 9's are in third place.

Maximum distance to achieve 1.3 inches of ballistic gell penetration, most ppl use 1.25 as a minimum to kill a turkey. 1,100fps, 1,000ft, 70F.

hevishot 7          = 47yds
lead 6                 = 49
hevishot 6          = 60
heavyweight 8    = 64
TSS 9                 = 74
heavyweight 7    = 81
TSS 8                 = 96


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

MKW said:


> I thought we were talking about the situation in which a turkey was wounded by #9s at 30yrds?? At that range, any turkey load should work. Are you really suggesting that if he'd been shooting a load with bigger, but less dense pellets that it might have bounced off the turkey at 30yrds??
> Sheet metal tests mean less than nothing when it comes to turkey hunting. Of course a harder/denser object will punch through sheet metal better. If turkeys start wearing helmets, I'll conact you for your load recipe.
> 
> Mike



Mike, I assume you are just intentionally being disingenuous to draw applause from the earth is flat and Model-Ts are better than Cadillacs crowd, maybe?  I can't imagine you are being serious.  In any event, you cut me to the quick with your harshness.

I'm saying nothing about what bounced or didn't bounce off at 30 yds.  You asked a hypothetical question.  I gave a hypothetical answer.  But Steven didn't hit the turkey "solidly" with the pattern.  That much I know.  No turkey would survive that.  A coyote would not survive that.  You would not survive that.  I doubt a deer would either.  

And please, cut me a little slack.  Where's the love?  Don't you know how much trouble and time and money I spent doing all that "means less than nothing" cutting up that sheet metal, gathering all the different shells, shooting and documenting and comparing all those turkey loads?   I would think any fair minded person would at least appreciate the effort.  Wouldn't he?  I mean, I put almost as much time and effort into figuring out all this penetration stuff as you have. 

You're right about turkeys though.  They don't typically wear helmets.  And since turkeys don't wear helmets, would you give me some props if my "means less than nothing" tests arrived at the same conclusions as you get if the test material is a softer material-- let's say ballistics gel? 

In any event, for any other folks interested, you can get a computer program that gives you all the numbers on penetration and most other ballistics considerations for most any shotshell and shot type you can come up with.  

http://shotshellballistic.blogspot.com/


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

deerslayer357 said:


> If people are using the same recipe and killing birds at 60 and beyond, I don't see how a turkey would run off after a solid hit at 30 yards.



It's an impossibility.


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Maximum distance to achieve 1.3 inches of ballistic gell penetration, most ppl use 1.25 as a minimum to kill a turkey. 1,100fps, 1,000ft, 70F.
> 
> hevishot 7          = 47yds
> lead 6                 = 49
> ...



Compare this ranking above with my "means less than nothing" sheet metal tests:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=497730

But we can't talk about turkey load overall effectiveness without talking about pattern density.   There is always a trade-off to be made between that and penetration.  And the beauty of using a dense pellet is that you can get very high marks on both counts, so you end up with a much effective load.

Here's the ranked pellet counts of the above shot types, based on a 2 oz. load for reference, with their penetration rank in parantheses:

hevishot 6          = 412  (5)
heavyweight 7    = 439 (2)
lead 6                 = 446 (6)
TSS 8                 = 502  (1)
hevishot 7          = 549   (7) 
heavyweight 8    = 602  (4)
TSS 9                 = 715  (3)


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## nhancedsvt (Nov 19, 2010)

Gadget, Hal,
I'm not on here bashing TSS or trying to offend anyone. Like I said in my first post, I'm sure TSS has had great results for some but not for me. It's impressive the work y'all have put into your loads and I can respect that, but I tried it and it simply wasn't for me. I just wanted to point out another side to the story to show people that TSS may not be the world's greatest turkey ammo (although I'm sure some do think that).
After the results I saw, I decided that _for me_ the Hevis would do all I needed and more. I don't have to worry about loading them up or doing extensive patterning. I don't have to worry if they'll be available the next time I need ammo, for the most part. All I do is go to the sporting goods store, buy a couple boxes, and go hunting. Regardless of if it was operator error or not, the results were not worth the trouble to me, so I went to something else. But what do I know, I'm just a rookie...


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## hawglips (Nov 19, 2010)

Steven, those are good reasons to use the Hevis.  You are the one holding the gun, spending time and money on the whole turkey hunting deal, and you should always do what makes sense for your situation and what you are comfortable with doing.  But that's a whole different ballgame than declaring what is or is not effective and to what extent it is or is not effective.  When you get into that realm, you move away from likes and dislikes and what one is comfortable doing, and into very measureable and totally objective facts.   That's what separates "means less than nothing" tests and physical science from ignorant bashing and overreactions based on the ignorant bashing.

P.S.  Just got another deer report with the TSS in #1 shot.  35 yards, quartering towards the shooter, dead on the spot, with a 1-1/4 oz load of it.


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## Hookspur (Nov 19, 2010)

Hal, I have a question. I'm fairly certain that most states allow no turkey shot smaller than 6's. Would you please list those states that _do_ allow the tiny stuff?


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## dwills (Nov 19, 2010)

Hal, unfortunately you're probably wasting your time trying to rationalize the use of TSS to some of these people. Despite the penetration tests, pellet counts, and pattern densities, some people will always refuse anything that they haven't tried or lack the abilities/funds to experiment with. Personally, I've put lots of loads down the barrel of my shotgun in order to find the mystical "perfect turkey load". After testing nearly every factory load available, I decided to give TSS reloading a try. Thanks to Hal, I discovered what I believe to be the most revolutionary and effective turkey shot on the market. The penetration and pellet counts achievable with this load make it unparalleled. At first, I too was skeptical of it's killing power. Last year alone, my loads accounted for around 10 birds, several of which were misjudged and shot out past 50 yards, the longest being 62 yards. These shells are truly amazing and I can't thank Hal enough for getting me started. Tinkering with your recipes is super addictive and can get expensive, but it makes all the difference in the world knowing that I can humanely kill a bird significantly farther than my self imposed 40 yard maximum range. Keep up the good work Hal!


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## hawglips (Nov 20, 2010)

Hookspur said:


> Hal, I have a question. I'm fairly certain that most states allow no turkey shot smaller than 6's. Would you please list those states that _do_ allow the tiny stuff?



Doc, I have no idea on that.  I know some do have minimum shot size laws.  I think most all of them have maximum shot sizes.  I did hear that MD (I believe that's right?) just updated their laws to do reflect the reality of the new, small, dense shot that is making turkey loads so much more effective.  It is ironic that there are states that have shot size laws that are actually counterproductive as far as humanely killing vs crippling the bird is concerned.  I don't see how anybody who has actually compared what big lead shot does vs the small dense shot would not have laws like those on the books.  Those laws (based on lead) will no doubt change once the game commissions catch up with the science and reality of the dense shot that Federal (and hopefully others soon) are using.


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## creekrocket (Nov 20, 2010)

I was wondering when ole BradC was gonna rear his head on this one...Hows it been Brad? Good to see you're still alive Hal and Gadget....I totally agree with ya'll. Keep up the good work. It pays off for all of us. Thanks


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## hawglips (Nov 20, 2010)

There is no debate here.  The "pixie dust" is heads and shoulders more effective as a turkey load than the big "manly" sized fluffy lead stuff.  Those still trying to argue otherwise, are beating a dead horse that ain't getting up and going anywhere.  The word is out, the facts have been established.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=497730
http://shotshellballistic.blogspot.com/

And folks like Mzl, the COmANdeR et al, who have not been able to make up their minds which argument they are going to stick with (too small and too weak, or too strong and too long??), are going to have to come to grips with it and decide which position to take.  You can't have it both ways fellows!  And Mike, that "do as I say and not as I do" dilemma of yours is an interesting one.  I guess for now, since you're still shooting the pixie dust, but preaching against it because you can't get manly sized fluffy shot to do what you need it to do, we know where you really stand on the issue.

So, to help Mzlhunter et al decide which side of their contradiction to cling to in their pixie dust bashing, I figure I'd have a little fun and post just a few of last year's most ridiculous "pixie dust" penetration reports from various folks who know a Model-T is just not as effective a mode of transportation as a Cadillac....

*****************************

(20 ga. 1-7/16 oz. 1200fps)
I killed one today at 32 yds through some thick brush, and messed up his head/eye real good.

******************

(12 ga. 2 oz. T9s)
I was able to do a little testing Sat AM in Al.   Temps were about 50 degrees, with no wind, and humidity was high as there was a little fog all around.  Distance was not lasered, but stepped off a LONG 38 steps to the fence line.  I was 2 yards behind the fence and the target was 38 steps on the other side ....  I can say that the 9's have plenty of punch at 40 yds.  I had one flier that caught him in the left wing, just below the "little drumstick", it hit the larger of the two bones and shattered it like a pretzel.  A couple of other fliers caught him in the breast and penetrated from side to side taking out both lungs, there was a blood clot the size of my fist. 

************

(20 ga., 1-7/16 oz., TSS 9s, 1037 fps)
I didn't want to publicly state it. Tired of the rants and "unethical" comments from people who know little of which they speak and even less about what I'm doing or have done.  That said, 46 yds, BANG, NO FLOP!!!  Had my little boy w/ me and the bird came in on his bad side and was coming no closer.  My only regret is him not shooting. He did get to see quite a show.

******************

(20 ga., 1-7/16 oz., TSS 9s, 1150 fps)
At 35yds out, it was too close to the other hens and she waited until they separated. I said wait until I get it stick it's head and neck up fully then take the shot. I made a couple of putts and it stood strait up. At the shot it folded like a dish towel and I could barely get my gear together because I was so excited. ...The shot distance turned out to be 52 of my steps. (I thought about 42yds when she was taking aim)

*************************


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## hawglips (Nov 20, 2010)

(12 ga. 2 oz. #9s 1175 fps)
Busted ones noggin this morning with the TSS.  Ranged him at 56 yards afterwards.  He didnt even twitch     Only found 1 pellet but it was on the off side under the skin.  Broke his wing, leg, and neck 

************

(20 ga. , TSS 9s, 1-7/16 oz., 1037 fps)
Ive been hunting all wk ..Mostly calling for folks ....2 of those friends have missed birds at 10 and 45 yrds .. both of them where using lead #5s...
Ive called up at least 20 + gobblers in the past week .. a good 15 of those skirted the 60 yrd line ....
Today I had enuf ..I was on my own and sure enuf there he was at 7:25 am 60 yrds gobblin his tail off and he wasnt coming a step closer ...... The'' Pixie Dust '' roared and he was doa ... 
I broke out the Nikon 440 and ranged him as he laid graveyard dead @ 59 yrds ....... 
awsome awsome loads....

********************************

(12 ga. 2 0z T98s)
...and then I see him, making his way towards the decoys but not really interested! If I had to guess I would say he was probably 90 yards or more away when he entered the field....  He put on a nice little show but was still hung up about 75 yards (the closest he might have got was about 55 yards but I wanted him closer) About 15 minutes after having the gun shouldered and waiting for him to break that barrier my hand gave way just enough for the barrel to drop maybe 6 inches or a little more and he saw it. He didn't start a full fledged sprint but he had a head bob and was not wasting time getting out of the field. Well that wasn't gonna happen, not again, that bird was gonna leave that field with me if it meant me climbing a tree after him and stabbing him to death. Anyhow, I start to take aim and Bollweevil says "it's too far" my response "not with these shells it aint" BOOM! Dead Right There! ...turns out it was 65 YARDS and it rolled him good! Needless to say I am more then happy with this bird for my first! Thanks again guys! It means more then you will ever know...

************************

(TSS 8s, 12 ga.)
...called me this afternoon all excited - he had finally killed his first turkey of the season. ... The bird came out on the other side of the field, saw the decoy, and strutted to it, but stopped at 75 yds and apparently was spooked by the fake hen. He went out of strut and turned around to leave, so he let him have it with one of my tss #8 loads at 76 yds, and he said it folded him up on the spot. He said the gobbler's head was a bloody mess.... He said he would kiss me if I was there; told him I would pass on that.

************************* 

(12 ga. 2 oz. T8s)
I ain't telling this to anyone but you, but I shot my turkey this morning at 78 yds and he dropped as dead as any all season. I thought he was about 65 yds; guess its good I didn't realize how far he really was or I would have passed.

I wonder how far this stuff will kill one? There's gotta be a limit somewhere.

***************

And I won't mention those two 90 yd birds since they were the year before last....

So, too small and too weak?  Or too strong and too long?

Mzl, made up your mind yet?


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## dtala (Nov 20, 2010)

Alabama states #2 shot or smaller, dosen't have a limit on how small.

mornin Hal...

  troy


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## Gadget (Nov 20, 2010)

dwills said:


> Despite the penetration tests, pellet counts, and pattern densities, some people will always refuse anything that they haven't tried or lack the abilities/funds to experiment with.


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## icdedturkes (Nov 20, 2010)

I understand what MKW is stating.. If your guys claims are true than why not switch... Because he doesnt need to, what he is shooting now and in the past is adequate for his 40 yd hunting.. 

So the question must be asked, do the TSS guys shoot a 50BMG on whitetails? From the _claims_ of superiority ofTSS  and the capabilities of a 50 cal the advantages are very similar.. 

"Well I dont shoot deer that far."  Well look at the buffer for error you have.. Heck you could misjudge a deer by 200 yards and still pull it off.. 

"My (insert caliber here) kills them fine" Dead is not dead from what you guys say, so why not have a gun that not only floors the deer but takes down the oak in the background.. 

"Its too much gun for deer" Actually it is the most ethical thing you could tote to the whitetail woods.. All of those shots with standard calibers that required tracking in the past are negated.. Hit him in the guts, liver, kidneys where ever and your swamp donkey is done.. 

So the question must be asked.. If "adequate" turkey ammo is now no longer adequate.. Than why not shoot the biggest, best penetrating, heaviest, longest range bullet for whitetail..


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## striper commander (Nov 20, 2010)

I hope you like your 410 choke hal. Think of me every time you shoot one with it. Why don't you go buy you a couple of live turkeys for thanksgiving and video yourself shooting them at 90 yards with the 9's and post what happens on here for us to see. Then you might make a believer out of me. Or maybe a cat at 50.


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## dtala (Nov 20, 2010)

icedeturkeys, as someone who has actually KILLED deer with a 50BMG, I'm going to disagree with you idea of it's killing power on whitetails. I find that the 50 cal bullets fail to expand much if at all and make a 50 cal hole thru the deer without the damage from a fast expanding bullet.  Now I have gotten all passthrus

Now take something like a 30-378 shooting light, 150gr bullets, and you have a real bomb of a deer killer, and way flatter shooting than the 50BMG

  troy


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## Gaswamp (Nov 20, 2010)

Hal,  I'm not going to argue with you over effectiveness or penetration.  Personally, I think we have to be careful promoting long range turkey hunting.

In one of the examples you listed a guy was shooting through brush.  Not my idea of a hunter shooting through obstructions
another example a guy shoots one at 75+ yds.  Not my idea of turkey hunter.  guy drops one at 78 yds but thought it was 65 yds.  I just don't get it.  Personally, I wouldn't want a lot of folks that can't estimate range or shooting long range or shooting through brush promote TSS.  

Again, I will not argue that TSS does not work.  At over 50 yds I guess you got to have it, but that ain't turkey hunting as I know it.  However, in my book  35 yds and under you don't need it.  and if folks cant range +/-5 yds at under 40 yds they aint been in the woods enough or need to take up bow shooting IMHO





hawglips said:


> There is no debate here.  The "pixie dust" is heads and shoulders more effective as a turkey load than the big "manly" sized fluffy lead stuff.  Those still trying to argue otherwise, are beating a dead horse that ain't getting up and going anywhere.  The word is out, the facts have been established.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=497730
> http://shotshellballistic.blogspot.com/
> ...


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## icdedturkes (Nov 20, 2010)

dtala said:


> icedeturkeys, as someone who has actually KILLED deer with a 50BMG, I'm going to disagree with you idea of it's killing power on whitetails. I find that the 50 cal bullets fail to expand much if at all and make a 50 cal hole thru the deer without the damage from a fast expanding bullet.  Now I have gotten all passthrus
> 
> Now take something like a 30-378 shooting light, 150gr bullets, and you have a real bomb of a deer killer, and way flatter shooting than the 50BMG
> 
> troy


I was going to use a 338-378 in which I have seen deer killed with, but the point remains the same..


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## icdedturkes (Nov 20, 2010)

Gadget said:


> There are many ways to limit yourself to make hunting more challenging, shooting weak or inferior equipment or ammo is not a good option imo.



But in this case if your limiting your shots to a predetermined range with a buffer zone beyond.. Your ammo, choke and gun are fully capable of 100% percent kills at given range if the shooter does his part.. Their is nothing better.. Dead is dead.. 

And this is my point with the BMG comment.. If you feel that TSS provides another level of dead  but do not shoot the deer rifle and bullet that provides the highest amount of energy and best ballistics its hypocritical.. Guns such as the 243, 270, 06, 300 Mag, 338 etc etc should not be taken to the deer woods, you are short changing yourself and the animal either know within its established range will get the job done 100 percent of the time.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 21, 2010)

Hal, I could care less about formula's a guy on the  internet comes up with. As I told you before I found a lead load that shoots very well out of my gun/choke combo, out to 40yds. I've yet to have a cripple or miss with that setup and I am very confident that it will humanely kill any bird that steps inside 40yds. 
The argument of using TSS to compensate for longer shots due to misjudged yardages is a weak one. I KNOW my effective range and will not pull the trigger unless a bird is within that range, any doubt and the gun stays on safety. I think most who use that argument know their ranges very well but like the idea that if a bird hangs up outside their range they have the option to let one fly.


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## hawglips (Nov 21, 2010)

dtala said:


> Alabama states #2 shot or smaller, dosen't have a limit on how small.
> 
> mornin Hal...
> 
> troy



'Morning Troy.  

NC has no limit on how small either.  Nor does VA.  Don't believe GA does either.  Or FL.  Not sure about SC.

I know 7-1/2 shot (lead) used to be considered one of the better sizes if you could get it in high brass.  Lovett Williams seems to be a proponent of that sized shot in his books.  Or course, he used to like to hunt them with rifles too, so we better take it with a grain of salt.


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## hawglips (Nov 21, 2010)

Gaswamp said:


> In one of the examples you listed a guy was shooting through brush.  Not my idea of a hunter shooting through obstructions
> another example a guy shoots one at 75+ yds.  Not my idea of turkey hunter.  guy drops one at 78 yds but thought it was 65 yds.  I just don't get it.  Personally, I wouldn't want a lot of folks that can't estimate range or shooting long range or shooting through brush promote TSS.



None of those guys were "promoting" anything.  These are private messages sent to me, not wanting to publicize what they did to be ridiculed by self-appointed internet turkey whisperers who weren't there, who don't know them, and who are just looking to take a shot at hunters to boost their own egos.  These were just a small number of such messages I've received, cherry picked for effect. 

And don't kid yourself.  LOTS of folks take 65 and 70 yd and LONGER shots every spring, shooting any old shell that they happen to have in their gun.  And the VAST majority of those clowns shoot manly sized lead shot.  
Old fashioned manly sized lead doesn't seem to be stopping them from any old hail mary that presents itself.  And chances are they have never once bothered to check their pattern, POI or anything else, and have about as much clue about what their ammo is doing once it leaves the muzzle as folks from The Funny Ride do about what makes shot pellets tick. 

The difference between those guys and the ones I shared above are that the guys shooting the TSS have patterned their rigs, have read up on the physics of it, and know the shot is within the dead zone.



Gaswamp said:


> Again, I will not argue that TSS does not work.  At over 50 yds I guess you got to have it, but that ain't turkey hunting as I know it.  However, in my book  35 yds and under you don't need it.  and if folks cant range +/-5 yds at under 40 yds they aint been in the woods enough or need to take up bow shooting IMHO



Like I've said many times on here, with high density shot material like TSS, you can do more than just create long range shells (refer back to my first post on this thread, #68 in the other one, etc, for example).  It's very early in the game, and so much has already been accomplished with it.  And now that more guys are loading it up (it was very lonely in the TSS turkey load world a couple years ago) you're going to be seeing more and more innovative shells.


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## hawglips (Nov 21, 2010)

300mag said:


> I hope you like your 410 choke hal. Think of me every time you shoot one with it. Why don't you go buy you a couple of live turkeys for thanksgiving and video yourself shooting them at 90 yards with the 9's and post what happens on here for us to see. Then you might make a believer out of me. Or maybe a cat at 50.



Will a coyote at 42 work?  Of course, if you can't aim straight, all bets are off...


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## dtala (Nov 21, 2010)

I've done what Hal is talking about with other than TSS shells, which I've never shot.

My wifes Benelli shoots black Win Supreme #5s, and Nitro 4-5-7s in very, very tight patterns. 50-70 yard killing patterns. But tooooo tight for her inside 30 yards, like neck size patterns. So I patterned her gun with a straight modified choke and lo and behold it shot much wider, uniform patterns at 20-30 yards. Prolly max 40 yard patterns. A lot of our hunting is IN the woods, and 20-35 yard shots are the norm. She now carries both mod and extra full chokes when hunting, does most of the killing with the mod choke.

It IS possible to have toooo much choke for hunting conditions, and less than expert, cool shots


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## NorthGaHunter (Nov 21, 2010)

Gadget said:


> The answer is not that simple.
> 
> 
> Over the years I've tested 20ga shotshells several times, never being able to get the patterns I was looking for I stuck with the 12ga, it wasn't until TSS that I finally found 20ga ammo that was good enough for me to feel confident to start hunting with a 20. So what TSS has done for me is allow me to go smaller and lighter in my ammo and equipment, my 20ga only weights about 5lbs, much lighter than my 12ga. .



After reading threads about TSS for the past few years, I finally bought a me an 870 20ga. in Austust 2008.  I patterned the gun with regular hevi shot (never tried Nitros), then sent the gun off to Gun Doc to get the barrel polished, trigger work done, and drill / tap for  a scope.   I patterned it after the work and still was not really please with the patterns....nothing against Gun Docs work.  I just was not happy with the pattern at 40 yards so I continued to hunt 2009 with my HEAVY Browning 12 gauge.  

I started loading TSS in Mar/April 2010.  With a primos tightwad choke, I was amazed at it's performance.  I did not get all my 20 ga. components till after opening week.  Once I loaded/patterned the 20 gauge, I hunted with it the rest of the season.  I hunt mostly the NE Ga mountains so the 20 gauge was a real pleasure to tote.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 23, 2010)

Hal, do you guarantee these "recipes" you give out to be safe in all guns? Just wondering because I remember seeing a post on OG where you were concerned with safety.


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## hawglips (Nov 23, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> Hal, do you guarantee these "recipes" you give out to be safe in all guns? Just wondering because I remember seeing a post on OG where you were concerned with safety.



You should post the link to that here.  What gun are you wanting to shoot my recipes in?


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 23, 2010)

As I told you I have no need for TSS, lead still works just fine. I don't go over there and read that jibberish much so you'll have to paste the link.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 24, 2010)

So do you guarantee they are safe Hal?


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## hawglips (Nov 24, 2010)

Mzlhunter1 said:


> So do you guarantee they are safe Hal?



Mzl, once again, you are barking loud, but up the wrong tree.  Nothing's up this one either.  You sure are trying mighty hard though.  It's puzzling to watch, but I've got to hand it to you -- you're putting a lot of effort into trying to discredit me and 18g/cc shot for some odd reason.  Very strange. 

Anyway, my 12 ga TSS loads have the chamber pressures of a typical dove load or target load (9772 psi), instead of those high pressures you're no doubt shooting with your lead turkey loads.  The 20 ga. and .410 turkey loads are both in the 10000 psi range if I'm not mistaken.  Can't remember exactly off the top of my head.  My "buckshot" load is right at 9900 psi.  I send them off to an independent lab to get proofed before I let anyone load them.  All are well under CIP and SAAMI safety standards, thank you.

That's yet another beautiful thing about TSS, Mzl.  You can develop lower pressured and less recoil loads with it.  Easier on guns, shoulders and cheek bones -- tougher on turkeys.  

In fact, I've been working on a 2-1/8 oz. load this week, that I'm wanting to raise the chamber pressures on.  It was too low at around 7000 psi, even though the velocity is at 1175-1200 fps.  So I'm re-doing it.  If you knew anything about shotshell development, you'd know that that's kind of an odd position to be in with an extra heavy 3" turkey load.  Even my 1-5/8 oz. 20 ga. load is more than 1000 psi under SAAMI.  Pretty nifty, huh?  Guys over at reloading sites like Shotgun World thought that was quite a trick.  But it's no big deal with TSS.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 24, 2010)

Hal, I asked if you guarantee your recipes are safe. Wasn't implying that they were or weren't so I don't see how that is trying to discredit you. You posted the pressures and that's great but I'm still wondering if you stand behind them as being safe?


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## hawglips (Nov 24, 2010)

Well, pardon me for assuming you were still on your bash 'lips and TSS campaign.    

Let me get this straight.  You say you weren't asking in hopes to find out that they are untested possibly unsafe loads so you could finally get some traction with your bashing.  

So, that only leaves two other possibilities.   One is that you are very concerned about the safety of others who might load them up.  Yeah, right.  And so the only other possibility is that you were wanting to load them up yourself.

Well heck.  I should have seen through all your previous bashing as the cover to hide your desire to load some up yourself.

Sure Mzl.  I'll stand behind them, hundreds of times over.  I'll even send you the lab report with the TSS so you can feel all warm and safe when you shoot them.   Do you have a loader, or are you wanting to roll them?  Your answer to that will dictate which recipe to send you.  But since you've demonstrated to me that you don't pay any attention to numbers and such and don't place any value in them -- and since I have no control over what you do with the recipe, ain't no way I'm standing behind anything you load up.  I'll stay well clear.


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## Hookspur (Nov 24, 2010)

Hal;

I checked around, and there are 14 states which don't allow shot sizes smaller than 8's (DE, IL, IA, IN, ME, MA, NE, NJ, NH, NY, OR, RI, UT, and VT). Of these, 4 further restrict the use to nothing smaller than 7-1/2's (IL, IN, NE, and NJ), while 7 others limit their turkey loads to nothing smaller than 6's (DE, ME, MA, NH, OR, RI, and UT).

Just thought you'd like to know before you schedule hunts in any of these places.

Doc


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## hawglips (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks for the info Doc.

So, it looks like if I go to IA, NY or VT, I'll have to shoot TSS in #8s.
If I go to IL, IN, NE or NJ, I can load some TSS up in #7-1/2s.
If I go to DE, ME, MA, NH, OR, UT or RI, I'll just load up #6 hevishot, and hope they don't mic the shot, because there'll certainly be some in there smaller than #6.  If I was a game warden in those states, and wanted to ticket someone, that would be a good way to issue some citations -- just look for those shooting hevishot #6, cut a shell open, mic it, and write them up.


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## returntoarchery (Nov 24, 2010)




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## Brad C. (Nov 24, 2010)

Hal, thank God your not a game warden.


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## Mzlhunter1 (Nov 24, 2010)

Hal, until they ban lead I'll be shooting it and if and when they do I'm sure I can find a HTL factory load that'll pattern just fine inside 40yds so I doubt ill ever need TSS or your recipes. I know your disapointed I'll never be on your prostaff but I'm sure if you keep posting up those stories of long range kills you'll have plenty of people that would love to sign up.

I had a good chuckle reading those TSS kill stories you posted. There was one where the guy misjudged by 15yds and another where the bird saw the decoys and was working his way in but the guy moved and spooked the bird forcing him to take a 60yd shot. That's a real turkey hunter right there. 60yd shot over decoys none the less. Any average Joe coulda killed that bird with that set up. Kind proves my point of the type of "hunter" and why they use TSS. As I said before I have no reason to believe you take or condone shots at those ranges but its quite evident why people want to use it.


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## hawglips (Nov 24, 2010)

Mzl, so you WERE just asking "safety" question hoping to find some traction somewhere (anywhere) to bash me?  Nice try anyway.  You can go back and report to the cOManDER and his posse that that one didn't work either.

By the way, I'm still waiting to hear about all that hard work you do turkey hunting that you mentioned earlier.  And I'm sure you have never moved or spooked a turkey in all your hard-working years as a "real turkey hunter."  Of course the guy you are mocking was pretty happy with killing his first turkey like that, after years of trying.  Mean, old Mzlhunter not cutting a first timer any slack at all.

Hey, but why stop at shotgun shells?   Why don't you demonstrate your skills by giving up some other modern crutches that "real turkey hunters" shouldn't need?  Why not make it a challenge and give up your 12 ga?  How about shooting a .410?  Or better yet, a longbow?  Maybe a sling shot?   Camo?  Why not forego your face mask, seat cushion, ATV, pickup truck and comfortable boots?  That would make a real turkey hunter out of you.  How about your fancy calls? The Indians used to let children hunt the turkeys, in loin cloths and using a bade of grass to call them in.  Those children would laugh at your lack of hunting skills.


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## Gaswamp (Nov 24, 2010)

Hal,  go on and admit it.....You miss Frank


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