# ? For Electricians. I’m stumped.



## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Trying to figure out what’s up with a dryer circuit at our little weekend house. Previous owner said everything worked fine when she moved out. To start with, I took an old dryer of ours there, that I knew was good, or was good when I removed it from our last house and put it in storage. Hooked it up… Confirmed (240)voltage to it… Nothing… Won’t turn on. I figured mice,or something may have gotten inside of it while It was in storage and chewed some wires, so I went and got another dryer, from another house that we used to rent. Same deal… Has voltage going to it, but didn’t work. I assumed something had went bad with it also because it had been in storage for about 10 years. I go and buy a new dryer…Wire it up… Confirm voltage..light comes on when I open the door..(new)Dryer won’t start either?. Change out the breaker,as it has been unused for +|- a year. No difference. Took the cover off the (3-wire)plug…everything “looks” fine & voltage confirmed again on each leg(120/120..240 total). Put cover back on,plugged it back in..and again..I get what appears to be normal voltage on each leg/side of the dryer. Hot wires to the outside & neutral to the middle ground. 3-wire plug & new dryer(GE) is 3-


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Sorry,some of the pics are redundant. Will edit later.


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

It looks like only a few breakers in that sub-panel. Are the other items tied there working properly?


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> It looks like only a few breakers in that sub-panel. Are the other items tied there working properly?



Correct, this is in our outside utility building. Everything else is working correctly.


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

Have you had the cover off of the dryer receptacle?


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Have you had the cover off of the dryer receptacle?



“Took the cover off the (3-wire)plug…everything “looks” fine & voltage confirmed again on each leg(120/120..240 total). Put cover back on,plugged it back in..and again..” Yes sir….


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

Check to assure the neutral wire in the receptacle and in the sub-panel are tight. 
Any chance of the cable from breaker to receptacle being damaged?


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## redd66 (Jul 17, 2022)

Swap the hot wires at the dryer and see if the light still works.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Check to assure the neutral wire in the receptacle and in the sub-panel are tight.
> Any chance of the cable from breaker to receptacle being damaged?



I don’t see where anything has been moved/pulled & I confirmed that the wires are tight inside the receptacle..also confirmed that the plug is making good contact with all 3 legs before I put the cover back on.


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## redd66 (Jul 17, 2022)

If it does I would check the door switch


redd66 said:


> Swap the hot wires at the dryer and see if the light still works.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

redd66 said:


> Swap the hot wires at the dryer and see if the light still works.



I did that too…just for grins & giggles. No change. Light worked both ways. Dryer still not coming on.


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> I don’t see where anything has been moved/pulled & I confirmed that the wires are tight inside the receptacle..also confirmed that the plug is making good contact with all 3 legs before I put the cover back on.



Did you check for tightness of the neutral wire in the panel ?


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

New Dryer..


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Did you check for tightness of the neutral wire in the panel ?



Yes. I turned off the whole panel & tugged on each wire individually. No loose wires. Changed the breaker…no difference..unless I have 2 bad breakers…?‍?


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> New Dryer..


???


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> ???



I was letting redd66 know that it’s a new Dryer,in reference to the door switch..


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

A loose or dirty connection on a neutral wire will sometimes give enough connection for a meter or a small wattage load to work. But the when a larger load tries to start it can’t. 
That’s why I’m thinking about a neutral wire problem.


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## Local Boy (Jul 17, 2022)

I notice that the low voltage legs are 130 & 112 Volts.  I had a problem with an unbalance at a cabin that we owned.  The neutral lug in the meter base was corroded.  I tightened and solved the problem. 

(Contact the power company if you pull the meter.  BE CAREFUL!)




See 1962 meter base in photo:


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

Looks like local boy and I are thinking along the same lines.


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## RedHills (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Looks like local boy and I are thinking along the same lines.



Me too, 5% should be max difference on legs.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Looks like local boy and I are thinking along the same lines.



The more I think about it…I agree.  The Dryer plug/receptacle is old,but I didn’t see anything out of place,loose,or broken. I HAVE 240V…but something is missing. I don’t think the cord has been yanked & broken internally. All of the terminals are tight & clean.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 17, 2022)

I will have to pull the panel at the house,and the outbuilding(where the Dryer is) & look for loose/corroded wires. I am not there now,but everything else on the panel is working correctly. 100% sure on that. Thanks for the replies. We will solve it?


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## Milkman (Jul 17, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> The more I think about it…I agree.  The Dryer plug/receptacle is old,but I didn’t see anything out of place,loose,or broken. I HAVE 240V…but something is missing. I don’t think the cord has been yanked & broken internally. All of the terminals are tight & clean.



It could be someone drove a nail into the cable or drilled a hole into the cable. Ground/neutral wire problems act crazy sometimes.


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## divinginn (Jul 18, 2022)

meter out both hot legs on the dryer with it plugged in,doing it one leg at a time will fool you sometimes.
If you don't get 240 volts go back to the recpt and meter both hot legs again to see if you have 240 there.
I would bet you are missing a hot leg but reading hot on both but from the same leg.


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## divinginn (Jul 18, 2022)

I would suspect the recpt,just had to trouble shoot one that was pushed back to far where the plug makes connection in the recpt.
All showed good on the recpt but was loosing a leg going to the dryer,new recpt and cord fixed it.


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## notnksnemor (Jul 18, 2022)

Agree with the others, it appears to be a "floating" neutral problem.
Have someone try to start the dryer while you check voltage (each hot leg to neutral).
I suspect the meter voltage reading will drop when start is pressed.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 18, 2022)

Soo…The “Floating Neutral” would be isolated to this one circuit…since the other circuits are working properly?  All of the other circuits in this panel are 120V. The Dryer circuit is the only 240 circuit in this outbuilding. Everything on the main breaker box,at the house seems to be working properly. It is sounding like the receptacle May be doing something funky,that I can’t see..when I plug the cord into it.


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## Milkman (Jul 18, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> Soo…The “Floating Neutral” would be isolated to this one circuit…since the other circuits are working properly?  All of the other circuits in this panel are 120V. The Dryer circuit is the only 240 circuit in this outbuilding. Everything on the main breaker box,at the house seems to be working properly. It is sounding like the receptacle May be doing something funky,that I can’t see..when I plug the cord into it.



Don’t rule out a problem with the neutral wire from the sub-panel to the dryer plug. Also be aware corrosion at terminals is possible. 
 Lotsa stuff can happen.


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## Doug B. (Jul 18, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Don’t rule out a problem with the neutral wire from the sub-panel to the dryer plug. Also be aware corrosion at terminals is possible.
> Lotsa stuff can happen.


It looks like it is a three wire cord. If that is the case then there won't be a neutral wire from the panel box to the dryer receptacle.  

Check both lugs in the panel box to see what the voltage is there.  If there is an imbalance in voltage there, you may have a bad neutral coming from the panel box in the house to the sub-panel.


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## Wire Nut (Jul 18, 2022)

I’ve been lurking to see if to OP could fix the issue. If all other circuits in the panel are 120v they will work fine. As mentioned above you need to check from leg to ground with the dryer turned on. If you have a bad neutral/ground one leg will be much higher than 120v and the other will be much lower. It may not be the neutral/ground coming from the panel to the dryer. How is the panel fed? Overhead or underground from the house? You mentioned it’s an out building. Is it fed from the house or does it have its own service?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2022)

Doug B. said:


> It looks like it is a three wire cord. If that is the case then there won't be a neutral wire from the panel box to the dryer receptacle.
> 
> Check both lugs in the panel box to see what the voltage is there.  If there is an imbalance in voltage there, you may have a bad neutral coming from the panel box in the house to the sub-panel.


I thought the center wire or terminal in the receptacle was the neutral and the 4 wire one came later in years/time and included a dedicated ground.

Isn't the controls and motor in most dryers 120 volts? I was thinking a water heater doesn't need a neutral but dryer and stove does.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 18, 2022)

I had a similar problem.
It turns out it was a neutral problem.
The panels bonding screw was defective. A jumper from ground to neutral solved it.


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## Doug B. (Jul 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought the center wire or terminal in the receptacle was the neutral and the 4 wire one came later in years/time and included a dedicated ground.
> 
> Isn't the controls and motor in most dryers 120 volts? I was thinking a water heater doesn't need a neutral but dryer and stove does.


A three wire dryer, stove, oven, etc, usually only consists of three conductors.  Two hot legs and a ground.  No neutral. Now by code these circuits must have the two hot legs, a ground, and a neutral.   The appliances come with the ground and neutral bonded.  If you are using a four wire cord, then by code, you must disconnect the bond on the appliance which separates the ground and neutral.  A neutral is not a ground. 

If you look at the op's pictures you will see that the black and white wires are connected to the breaker.  That means that the only conductors going to the appliance from the panel box is a black wire, a white wire, and a ground wire.  That doesn't leave any conductor to be used as a neutral.  In that case, the ground wire will be connected to the ground/neutral terminal in the appliance because the ground wire and the neutral wire go to the same place.  In a four wire system, which is code now, the ground and neutral must be separated.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2022)

Doug B. said:


> A three wire dryer, stove, oven, etc, usually only consists of three conductors.  Two hot legs and a ground.  No neutral. Now by code these circuits must have the two hot legs, a ground, and a neutral.   The appliances come with the ground and neutral bonded.  If you are using a four wire cord, then by code, you must disconnect the bond on the appliance which separates the ground and neutral.  A neutral is not a ground.
> 
> If you look at the op's pictures you will see that the black and white wires are connected to the breaker.  That means that the only conductors going to the appliance from the panel box is a black wire, a white wire, and a ground wire.  That doesn't leave any conductor to be used as a neutral.  In that case, the ground wire will be connected to the ground/neutral terminal in the appliance because the ground wire and the neutral wire go to the same place.  In a four wire system, which is code now, the ground and neutral must be separated.


I thought the new code added a dedicated ground, not the other way around. Thanks. I had it backwards.
I did know how it worked, just the wrong nomenclature. I thought the neutral wire was acting as a ground but actually the ground is being used as a neutral.

Amazing how many argue this point on the internet and forums, lol. Reading this;
*3 wire dryer circuit         *

_The older style 3-wire ranges and dryers didn't have a neutral ... they had grounds. They used the ground as their neutral_.
​I'm afraid I need to disagree.  The wire present in these old circuits is the neutral.  The fact the conductor needs to be insulated when connected to other than service equipment proves this out.  The neutral conductor has always been required because of the design of the appliance.​​But could it truly be a neutral by code without a wire with insulation? Thus it's a ground being used as a neutral.​


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

Wire Nut said:


> I’ve been lurking to see if to OP could fix the issue. If all other circuits in the panel are 120v they will work fine. As mentioned above you need to check from leg to ground with the dryer turned on. If you have a bad neutral/ground one leg will be much higher than 120v and the other will be much lower. It may not be the neutral/ground coming from the panel to the dryer. How is the panel fed? Overhead or underground from the house? You mentioned it’s an out building. Is it fed from the house or does it have its own service?



I have not had a chance to go back and look at it/work on it yet. Maybe tomorrow evening. It is a three wire set up(Dryer/receptacle/cord). It is fed underground from the main panel box,at the house.


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## Lilly001 (Jul 19, 2022)

I had, what sounds like, the same issue With a new dryer in a new utility shed.
I had a sub panel in the utility shed fed via a three wire (2 hot 1 ground) from the house.
I had the three wire dryer plug from the sub panel. The new dryer wouldn’t run. Both hot wires tested hot and the ground was fine.
I ran a temp 4 wire plug and the dryer worked fine.
A jumper (10 gauge) from neutral to ground fixed the issue and I was able to use the 3 wire plug.
It took 2 electricians to figure it out.


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## Dbender (Jul 19, 2022)

Have you swapped out the actual cord each time, or using same cord?p


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2022)

Doug B. said:


> A three wire dryer, stove, oven, etc, usually only consists of three conductors.  Two hot legs and a ground.  No neutral. Now by code these circuits must have the two hot legs, a ground, and a neutral.   The appliances come with the ground and neutral bonded.  If you are using a four wire cord, then by code, you must disconnect the bond on the appliance which separates the ground and neutral.  A neutral is not a ground.
> 
> If you look at the op's pictures you will see that the black and white wires are connected to the breaker.  That means that the only conductors going to the appliance from the panel box is a black wire, a white wire, and a ground wire.  That doesn't leave any conductor to be used as a neutral.  In that case, the ground wire will be connected to the ground/neutral terminal in the appliance because the ground wire and the neutral wire go to the same place.  In a four wire system, which is code now, the ground and neutral must be separated.


Is his dryer receptacle ground, that's also being used as a neutral, tied to the neutral bus in that sub-panel?  I don't think grounds and neutral are suppose to be tied together in sub-panels.
I guess that sub-panel has a ground that goes all the way to the main panel where it is tied to the neutral?

Just trying to figure out what his dryer ground path to neutral is.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

Dbender said:


> Have you swapped out the actual cord each time, or using same cord?p


 
Same Cord each time. I don’t see any damage to it,the prongs,or the terminals on each end.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 19, 2022)

I wish my memory was better!  I had a very similar problem about a year or so ago with a military maintenance van I was servicing. It was driving me NUTS but an HVAC tech figured it out pretty quickly and explained to me the science behind the problem. Military troubleshooting manuals often use "if X is the problem, the solution is A,B or C" but often as not A, B or C *do not *fix the problem.  When it comes to goofball phase & grounding problems, experienced HVAC techs have generally encountered a wiiiiiiide variety of situations.


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## Jim Ammons (Jul 19, 2022)

Am I missing something here? I see the two hot legs from breakers in panel. I do not see where a ground wire is attached to panel. Someone show it to me.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2022)

Jim Ammons said:


> Am I missing something here? I see the two hot legs from breakers in panel. I do not see where a ground wire is attached to panel. Someone show it to me.


That's what I was trying to figure out, the path of the dryers ground wire to the neutral bus or at least the ground rod in the main panel. Since it's also being used as a neutral.


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## Milkman (Jul 19, 2022)

Jim Ammons said:


> Am I missing something here? I see the two hot legs from breakers in panel. I do not see where a ground wire is attached to panel. Someone show it to me.



Probably outside the image on the right side of panel.


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## Doug B. (Jul 19, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is his dryer receptacle ground, that's also being used as a neutral, tied to the neutral bus in that sub-panel?  I don't think grounds and neutral are suppose to be tied together in sub-panels.
> I guess that sub-panel has a ground that goes all the way to the main panel where it is tied to the neutral?
> 
> Just trying to figure out what his dryer ground path to neutral is.


In a three wire service, that is no longer acceptable by NEC,  the neutrals and grounds are all on the same ground/neutral bar and it is bonded to the box. In a four wire service, which is now required by code, the neutrals and grounds must be separated. All the grounds go to the ground bar that screwed to the panel so everything that needs to be bonded is then indeed grounded.  All the neutrals go to the neutral bar which is insulated from the panel so that the neutrals and grounds remain separated.  The reason for this is so that the neutral has to be the conductor finishing the circuit and the ground can never be the conductor to finish the circuit.  

So, to answer your question, yes the ground from the dryer receptacle in the OP's scenario is connected to the ground/neutral bar and they are not separated.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 19, 2022)

"All the neutrals go to the neutral bar which is insulated from the panel so that the neutrals and grounds remain separated. The reason for this is so that the neutral has to be the conductor finishing the circuit and the ground can never be the conductor to finish the circuit." - Doug B

 BEST explanation of ground/neutral I have ever heard, and I used to teach "basic electronics" along with the actual equipment that uses said electronic principles and I never truly understood what I taught or what was taught to me. Granted we were on a fast-paced learning trajectory, but it would have been useful. 

That said, I don't want to muddy the waters here, but it could help solve future problems of a similar nature: what is a "return line?"  You see "return line" on electronic schematics & wiring diagrams, but nobody has ever been able to explain to me the science behind it. Granted I'm not an engineer just a tech, so if the wire is broken, I fix it. But can you define or explain the "return line" term?


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## notnksnemor (Jul 19, 2022)

Doug B. said:


> In a three wire service, that is no longer acceptable by NEC,  the neutrals and grounds are all on the same ground/neutral bar and it is bonded to the box. In a four wire service, which is now required by code, the neutrals and grounds must be separated. All the grounds go to the ground bar that screwed to the panel so everything that needs to be bonded is then indeed grounded.  All the neutrals go to the neutral bar which is insulated from the panel so that the neutrals and grounds remain separated.  The reason for this is so that the neutral has to be the conductor finishing the circuit and the ground can never be the conductor to finish the circuit.
> 
> So, to answer your question, yes the ground from the dryer receptacle in the OP's scenario is connected to the ground/neutral bar and they are not separated.



I wasn't aware of this change, but I have been retired for a while now and not really kept up with NEC changes.
Did NFPA 70E adopt this for industrial applications too?


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

Jim Ammons said:


> Am I missing something here? I see the two hot legs from breakers in panel. I do not see where a ground wire is attached to panel. Someone show it to me.



I will get a better pic later today..?


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

Thanks everyone! Glad to see that this is puzzling y’all too. I may grab another receptacle & change it this evening,just because the one there is probably 20 yrs old,based on appearance. That will be eliminated from the equation?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 19, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> Thanks everyone! Glad to see that this is puzzling y’all too. I may grab another receptacle & change it this evening,just because the one there is probably 20 yrs old,based on appearance. That will be eliminated from the equation?



That's the fun (sort of) when it comes to troubleshooting - finding/eliminating what the problem *is not*.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

My Dad always said: “There are Mechanics & Electricians…that understand how things work…and then there’s “parts changers”..”that keep changing stuff until they get lucky..”..?. Guess I’ll be a parts changer today…


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## ilbcnu (Jul 19, 2022)

Check the continuity of the cord


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## baddave (Jul 19, 2022)

to begin with a dryer doesn't need a neutral or a ground to function. it's 240v. a ground is for over current protection, safety from being accidentally energized, and lightning escape path. If you had a mother board or indicator lights that required a neutral then i apologize but "I" have never seen that on a dryer. being that your legs are so inbalanced I would bet you have an issue under ground. You said the dryer was fed underground???? something very similar happened with my well a couple yrs ago. UF cable somehow developed burnt 2 conductors. see, you can sometimes read voltage but it needs to be a strong voltage capable of carrying current. also had happen on my tractor- read 12V but wouldn't turn over. I had a loose ground connection.  I'd bet money that's your issue


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## baddave (Jul 19, 2022)

In addition to what I just posted,  check everything above ground that you can.  Take the wires off the breaker and check voltage there. If it reads the same,or very close, then you have an issue right there,  ez pz. If you read like 125v at each leg to ground and 240v between the legs then I'm guessing you have a burnt current carrying conductor underground. If so it will probably eventually burn all the way through


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## baddave (Jul 19, 2022)

that meter may well have an insulation test mode. It don't look like it. If so try that


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## Wire Nut (Jul 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "All the neutrals go to the neutral bar which is insulated from the panel so that the neutrals and grounds remain separated. The reason for this is so that the neutral has to be the conductor finishing the circuit and the ground can never be the conductor to finish the circuit." - Doug B
> 
> BEST explanation of ground/neutral I have ever heard, and I used to teach "basic electronics" along with the actual equipment that uses said electronic principles and I never truly understood what I taught or what was taught to me. Granted we were on a fast-paced learning trajectory, but it would have been useful.
> 
> That said, I don't want to muddy the waters here, but it could help solve future problems of a similar nature: what is a "return line?"  You see "return line" on electronic schematics & wiring diagrams, but nobody has ever been able to explain to me the science behind it. Granted I'm not an engineer just a tech, so if the wire is broken, I fix it. But can you define or explain the "return line" term?


The neutral is the “return line”. It’s a current carrying grounded conductor that is returning the unused current back to the point of main disconnect. At that point it goes to the ground


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

Did not get much done today. Grabbed a new receptacle, and dryer cord. Replaced the receptacle… No difference.replace the cord… No difference. Took the cover off the breaker box… And I see nothing loose or corroded, but just for grins and giggles…I loosened and checked every wire connection. I didn’t see any corrosion or dirt where ants or anything had got into it. I do not see any damage to the wire from the breaker to the receptacle. It came up a pretty strong thunderstorm so I called it a day. I’ll have to revisit Saturday. I think the problem lies in the main breaker box, or the wire from the breaker box to the outbuilding. There has been no dirt work, yardwork with a tractor or anything… So not sure what would’ve happened to the wire underground.


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## Milkman (Jul 19, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> Did not get much done today. Grabbed a new receptacle, and dryer cord. Replaced the receptacle… No difference.replace the cord… No difference. Took the cover off the breaker box… And I see nothing loose or corroded, but just for grins and giggles…I loosened and checked every wire connection. I didn’t see any corrosion or dirt where ants or anything had got into it. I do not see any damage to the wire from the breaker to the receptacle. It came up a pretty strong thunderstorm so I called it a day. I’ll have to revisit Saturday. I think the problem lies in the main breaker box, or the wire from the breaker box to the outbuilding. There has been no dirt work, yardwork with a tractor or anything… So not sure what would’ve happened to the wire underground.



Did you identify the 10 gauge ground/neutral wire from the panel to the receptacle?  It doesn’t show in the picture you posted. 

How far is it from the panel to the receptacle?  What kind of cable is it?


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## baddave (Jul 19, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> Did not get much done today. Grabbed a new receptacle, and dryer cord. Replaced the receptacle… No difference.replace the cord… No difference. Took the cover off the breaker box… And I see nothing loose or corroded, but just for grins and giggles…I loosened and checked every wire connection. I didn’t see any corrosion or dirt where ants or anything had got into it. I do not see any damage to the wire from the breaker to the receptacle. It came up a pretty strong thunderstorm so I called it a day. I’ll have to revisit Saturday. I think the problem lies in the main breaker box, or the wire from the breaker box to the outbuilding. There has been no dirt work, yardwork with a tractor or anything… So not sure what would’ve happened to the wire underground.


i had no explanation for my issue either. wire had been underground for more than 40 yrs. maybe it was nicked and took 40 yrs to lose it's integrity. do what I  said


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2022)

baddave said:


> to begin with a dryer doesn't need a neutral or a ground to function. it's 240v. a ground is for over current protection, safety from being accidentally energized, and lightning escape path. If you had a mother board or indicator lights that required a neutral then i apologize but "I" have never seen that on a dryer. being that your legs are so inbalanced I would bet you have an issue under ground. You said the dryer was fed underground???? something very similar happened with my well a couple yrs ago. UF cable somehow developed burnt 2 conductors. see, you can sometimes read voltage but it needs to be a strong voltage capable of carrying current. also had happen on my tractor- read 12V but wouldn't turn over. I had a loose ground connection.  I'd bet money that's your issue


I thought all the controls and the drum motor on most US dryers were 120 volts? Wasn't the purpose of the code change due to NEC not wanting dryers to use the ground for a neutral? Thus the code change to the 4 wires with a separate ground and neutral.


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## kmckinnie (Jul 19, 2022)

Here’s some info from google ?
https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/31640/can-a-dryer-receptacle-be-wired-without-a-neutral

https://www.how-to-wire-it.com/wire-a-dryer-outlet.html
ok
In
The panel u gave the 2 hot to 2 breakers side by side. One from each leg to the panel. There’s a 3 insulated wire that’s the neutral it goes to a bar with screw ins like the ground. 
The ground is the green or bare copper to a lug with screw ins. 
The ground is a green wire. The neutral is white the othe two are hot. Red blue black yellow or what ever. 

Now if this escapes you call a electrician!


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## kmckinnie (Jul 19, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought all the controls and the drum motor on most US dryers were 120 volts? Wasn't the purpose of the code change due to NEC not wanting dryers to use the ground for a neutral? Thus the code change to the 4 wires with a separate ground and neutral.


The drying part is the 240. That’s done in side the wiring in the dryer. Which I’m sure u know. ?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> The drying part is the 240. That’s done in side the wiring in the dryer. Which I’m sure u know. ?


Yes the heating element, everything else is 120 volts. Some say the older 3 wire types, like the OP has, is  two hots and a neutral but it's really two hots and a ground. And that ground is being used as a neutral.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

The Ground wire for that 240 circuit is the one on the top right. No corrosion..nothing loose. I loosened each connection & looked for corrosion. Didn’t see any,so I tightened them all back down. Guess next step is the main breaker box..this weekend. I truly hope it’s something dumb..that I am overlooking..and I don’t have to dig half the yard up to rewire that joker?‍?


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## arrendale8105 (Jul 19, 2022)

Do you have the same readings on that breaker as at the dryer? 112 on one leg and 130 on the other. Read to ground and then to neutral in that panel. There a true 4 wire circuit in there. I bet it’s a ground/neutral issue.


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## sleepr71 (Jul 19, 2022)

I’ll check the next time I can get up there. Thunderstorm cut my time short this afternoon.


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## baddave (Jul 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought all the controls and the drum motor on most US dryers were 120 volts? Wasn't the purpose of the code change due to NEC not wanting dryers to use the ground for a neutral? Thus the code change to the 4 wires with a separate ground and neutral.


if it is then I stand corrected. possibly nowadays they are since most ckts installed now have 4w.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

Maybe an electrician could chime it but would it be OK to temporarily disconnect the dryer wire's ground/neutral wire from the grounding strip in that panel and connect it to the neutral strip?
Just for a test. Wouldn't this be a quick way to make sure the ground is tied to the neutral in the main panel box? I mean it would rule out that main ground wire not working.
Or would  it be OK to temporarily tie the ground strip to the neutral strip which would leave the ground in place? Just to see if the dryer would power up.
This would just be a quick test and def not an end solution.

Either that or just move on to the main panel.


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## Milkman (Jul 20, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> View attachment 1164654
> The Ground wire for that 240 circuit is the one on the top right. No corrosion..nothing loose. I loosened each connection & looked for corrosion. Didn’t see any,so I tightened them all back down. Guess next step is the main breaker box..this weekend. I truly hope it’s something dumb..that I am overlooking..and I don’t have to dig half the yard up to rewire that joker?‍?



Place a jumper wire between the ground bar and neutral bar if they aren’t already connected.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

Milkman said:


> Place a jumper wire between the ground bar and neutral bar if they aren’t already connected.


But just for a test.


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## Wire Nut (Jul 20, 2022)

I’m placing my bet on the underground feeder is aluminum wire and there is a nick in the insulation on the neutral or ground. New code requires to drive ground rods at out buildings. I’d be willing to bet a ground rod would solve some of the issue. A voltage test with a 240v load would show it


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## notnksnemor (Jul 20, 2022)

As a side note:
You might also want to address the wire nutted neutral at the bottom of the panel.
It looks like they could be different size conductors nutted together.


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## Milkman (Jul 20, 2022)

While we are talking about the possibility of a bad connection on a neutral I would like to share this.  The image is of what was a crimped connector on the neutral/ground wire at the Ga Power pole transformer. This is what a squirrel did to the connector. m

Voltage in the office building went crazy and burned up some appliances, light fixtures, and a couple of UPS, and a computer.


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## Havana Dude (Jul 20, 2022)

Milkman said:


> While we are talking about the possibility of a bad connection on a neutral I would like to share this.  The image is of what was a crimped connector on the neutral/ground wire at the Ga Power pole transformer. This is what a squirrel did to the connector. m
> 
> Voltage in the office building went crazy and burned up some appliances, light fixtures, and a couple of UPS, and a computer.
> 
> ...



I’d say this is a definite possibility. Had this happen at transformer going to my barn. It destroyed the motor on an air compressor, and at same time, lights barely would glow. Stumped everyone, even the power company, until they checked that neutral at the transformer. Squirrels had chewed it in 2.


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## Milkman (Jul 20, 2022)

Havana Dude said:


> I’d say this is a definite possibility. Had this happen at transformer going to my barn. It destroyed the motor on an air compressor, and at same time, lights barely would glow. Stumped everyone, even the power company, until they checked that neutral at the transformer. Squirrels had chewed it in 2.



Im not saying this is what he has since he has plenty of working circuits on the main panel and sub panel.  But something is screwy on the ground side of the dryer circuit, I think.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 20, 2022)

Milkman said:


> While we are talking about the possibility of a bad connection on a neutral I would like to share this.  The image is of what was a crimped connector on the neutral/ground wire at the Ga Power pole transformer. This is what a squirrel did to the connector. m
> 
> Voltage in the office building went crazy and burned up some appliances, light fixtures, and a couple of UPS, and a computer.
> 
> ...



why would a squirrel (or any critter) chew on metal?


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## Batjack (Jul 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> why would a squirrel (or any critter) chew on metal?


Can't tell you why, but all rodents will eat all soft metals.. copper, aluminum, etc..


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## little rascal (Jul 20, 2022)

Dryer needs a ground and a neutral and two 120 volt legs. It's called (10/3 w grnd.)
You can run 10/2 w grnd to an air conditioner and its fine, not a dryer. It has to to do with the some of the controls that use one of 120volt legs and the ground to run.


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## kayaksteve (Jul 20, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> Did not get much done today. Grabbed a new receptacle, and dryer cord. Replaced the receptacle… No difference.replace the cord… No difference. Took the cover off the breaker box… And I see nothing loose or corroded, but just for grins and giggles…I loosened and checked every wire connection. I didn’t see any corrosion or dirt where ants or anything had got into it. I do not see any damage to the wire from the breaker to the receptacle. It came up a pretty strong thunderstorm so I called it a day. I’ll have to revisit Saturday. I think the problem lies in the main breaker box, or the wire from the breaker box to the outbuilding. There has been no dirt work, yardwork with a tractor or anything… So not sure what would’ve happened to the wire underground.


We have underground service go out all the time for no apparent reason. It sounds like a bad neutral to me. If you could check voltage under load I would bet voltage on one leg will shoot real high and one will dip real low. Or it could be a bad hot leg that will read 120 until it’s under load and then it will drop way off. We have a device we can install that loads up the wire and will tell you if it’s a bad leg or neutral. I’m not sure if a residential electrician has access to these or not


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## Doug B. (Jul 20, 2022)

little rascal said:


> Dryer needs a ground and a neutral and two 120 volt legs. It's called (10/3 w grnd.)
> You can run 10/2 w grnd to an air conditioner and its fine, not a dryer. It has to to do with the some of the controls that use one of 120volt legs and the ground to run.


Nope.  There are millions across this great land of ours (probably millions just in Georgia) that run off of 10-2 with ground.  These were wired before the code change that requires a 10-3 with ground. Yes the dryer needs a neutral to run.  For years they were being wired with a 10-2 to use a three prong plug and the ground was doing the job of the neutral. That is what it looks like is going on in the OP's pictures.  His sub-panel looks like a four wire service which means he does need a 10-3 with ground wire to the dryer receptacle. He also needs to have a four prong cord and a four prong receptacle with the wires going to their respective positions. Also the bond on the dryer itself needs to be broken so as to separate the ground and the neutral.  On the panel end the red and black wires go to the double pole breaker.  The white wire to the neutral bar and the bare copper to the ground bar. This way the ground can do its job which is to keep anything from becoming energized, and the neutral can do its job which is to be a load carrying conductor back to ground.  

I guarantee this to work!


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## little rascal (Jul 20, 2022)

I said 120 volt and ground, meant neutral or bonded. You don't even have to have a ground, if it's true ground thats just for all the metal enclosures etc.
You need an insulated ground or neutral, because the controls use 120 and neutral. Old school  used to use the bare ground.


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## Milkman (Jul 20, 2022)

Follow the ground/ neutral all the way back to the service. They are the same.


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## Wire Nut (Jul 20, 2022)

I’ve got an idea…if you don’t get it fixed on the next trip, “call the man”. That’s what Andy says anyways!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

Doug B. said:


> Nope.  There are millions across this great land of ours (probably millions just in Georgia) that run off of 10-2 with ground.  These were wired before the code change that requires a 10-3 with ground. Yes the dryer needs a neutral to run.  For years they were being wired with a 10-2 to use a three prong plug and the ground was doing the job of the neutral. That is what it looks like is going on in the OP's pictures.  His sub-panel looks like a four wire service which means he does need a 10-3 with ground wire to the dryer receptacle. He also needs to have a four prong cord and a four prong receptacle with the wires going to their respective positions. Also the bond on the dryer itself needs to be broken so as to separate the ground and the neutral.  On the panel end the red and black wires go to the double pole breaker.  The white wire to the neutral bar and the bare copper to the ground bar. This way the ground can do its job which is to keep anything from becoming energized, and the neutral can do its job which is to be a load carrying conductor back to ground.
> 
> I guarantee this to work!


I agree that would be the best and right thing to do but why isn't his working now? I'm assuming there was a working dryer in his shed at one time and like you said,  there are still many dryers on a 10-2 with ground circuit. Why isn't his ground doing the job of a neutral like all those other 10-2 with a ground applications?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

Side question, does the code require a grounding electrode on a shed sub-panel?


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## kmckinnie (Jul 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Side question, does the code require a grounding electrode on a shed sub-panel?


You run a ground back to the big panel. 
I believe in a 240 sub panel u run 2 hots a neutral and a ground. Just like what came into the main panel. Not sure tho. I’d have to check.


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## kmckinnie (Jul 20, 2022)

kmckinnie said:


> You run a ground back to the big panel.
> I believe in a 240 sub panel u run 2 hots a neutral and a ground. Just like what came into the main panel. Not sure tho. I’d have to check.


It would I believe to be like a moble home set up with power pole set up.


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## Wire Nut (Jul 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Side question, does the code require a grounding electrode on a shed sub-panel?


Requires a 4 wire subfeed(2 hots/neutral/ground). Also requires a single ground rod. That’s a recent change. This really doesn’t matter to the op because I think it’s an older storage building. I run across a lot of barns that have a 3 wire subfeed. I see some things that make me wonder what the person was thinking that installed it


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## sleepr71 (Jul 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree that would be the best and right thing to do but why isn't his working now? I'm assuming there was a working dryer in his shed at one time and like you said,  there are still many dryers on a 10-2 with ground circuit. Why isn't his ground doing the job of a neutral like all those other 10-2 with a ground applications?



Yes,there was a 3-plug receptacle & working Dryer in this outbuilding prior to us. The previous owner wanted to take her washer & dryer with her though..?


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## sleepr71 (Jul 20, 2022)

Wire Nut said:


> I’ve got an idea…if you don’t get it fixed on the next trip, “call the man”. That’s what Andy says anyways!



I am in agreement with this..? I’ve just been piddling with it each time I go,to try & get it sorted. Not making special trips. Sometimes it’s money well spent to get an expert involved. From a time,and aggravation standpoint?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2022)

sleepr71 said:


> I am in agreement with this..? I’ve just been piddling with it each time I go,to try & get it sorted. Not making special trips. Sometimes it’s money well spent to get an expert involved. From a time,and aggravation standpoint?


Plus if he comes out and after he finds the problem, I would agree with Doug either you or him go ahead and run a 10-3 with ground from the sub-panel to a new 4 prong dryer receptacle and remove the dryer tie or wire it according to how it says to connect the 4 prong instructions on the dryer.


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## Doug B. (Jul 21, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree that would be the best and right thing to do but why isn't his working now? I'm assuming there was a working dryer in his shed at one time and like you said,  there are still many dryers on a 10-2 with ground circuit. Why isn't his ground doing the job of a neutral like all those other 10-2 with a ground applications?


Because somewhere the ground has been compromised. I'm just assuming that it's in this one circuit since everything else in the shed is working right.


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## PCNative (Jul 22, 2022)

Put your meter on each leg one at a time and read voltage when you turn on machine, If one leg's voltage goes up and the other goes down when when you turn on machine it's a bad neutral. If voltage goes down on one leg, it's a bad hot leg. Could be inside or outside problem. Call the power company, they have a machine to tell if it's on your side or theirs. They will not charge you for this. If the wire has been buried for a long time this is probably the problem.


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## Lukikus2 (Jul 22, 2022)

Just my 2 cents. The older dryers only required a three point connection. The newer ones require a four point. Ground and neutral. There are cords sold that combine the the neutral and ground together.


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## Doug B. (Jul 22, 2022)

Lukikus2 said:


> Just my 2 cents. The older dryers only required a three point connection. The newer ones require a four point. Ground and neutral. There are cords sold that combine the the neutral and ground together.


Nope!  The new dryers do not require a ground and a neutral. They come with the ground and neutral bonded so that you can still use a three wire cord.  That is if your service is a three wire service.  If your house has been wired since the code change where it is required to have a four wire service then you will need to use a four wire cord and receptacle for your dryer.  In this case the you would break the bond on the dryer for ground and neutral so they would be separate and the neutral would do its job and the ground would do its job.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 22, 2022)

little rascal said:


> Dryer needs a ground and a neutral and two 120 volt legs. It's called (10/3 w grnd.)
> You can run 10/2 w grnd to an air conditioner and its fine, not a dryer. It has to to do with the some of the controls that use one of 120volt legs and the ground to run.



Good point! I bet the wiring diagram/schematics that come with the dryer - usually found on the back panel of the dryer when you unscrew it - would show that & everything else electronic.


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## notnksnemor (Jul 23, 2022)

Man,

And I thought Delta - Wye configurations were confusing.


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 23, 2022)

notnksnemor said:


> Man,
> 
> And I thought Delta - Wye configurations were confusing.



I rarely came across those in my career, thank goodness.


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## notnksnemor (Jul 24, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I rarely came across those in my career, thank goodness.



Common back in the day in factories.
Factory I worked in still had hot knob & tubing wiring in areas that hadn't been upgraded.
Delta is Wye without a ground.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2022)

notnksnemor said:


> Common back in the day in factories.
> Factory I worked in still had hot knob & tubing wiring in areas that hadn't been upgraded.
> Delta is Wye without a ground.


Also the *High-leg delta* (also known as wild-leg, stinger leg, b___d leg, high-leg, orange-leg, red-leg, dog-leg delta) transformer.


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## PCNative (Jul 25, 2022)

Delta and Wye are completely different voltages. Wye systems will give you 120/208 and 277/480 used mainly in commercial applications where there are a lot of lighting circuits. Delta will supply 120/240 with a power leg that measures 208 phase to ground and 2-120 volt legs. Voltage will measure 240 between the 208 leg and one of the 120 volt legs. This is used mainly where there are three phase motors that need the power leg to start. There are several voltages available in these systems available for commercial applications.


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## Taco4x4 (Jul 25, 2022)

Just wanted to add that the sub panel does appear to be bonded. OP's last pic you can see the green bonding screw has been installed.


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## Wire Nut (Jul 25, 2022)

Ok. I could go thru the whole delta/wye explanation but I get posts deleted for getting off topic. 101 posts ago the op asked about a dryer circuit in a storage shed on a residential property. Not a delta or wye system there, guaranteed. Just saying


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## Buck70 (Jul 31, 2022)

What was the final result?


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## sleepr71 (Aug 1, 2022)

Buck70 said:


> What was the final result?



Not resolved yet. We’ve been busy getting kids ready to go back to school,and had to replace the A/C system at our main home ..there went any free $$$ I had. I will update when I get it figured out. In the meantime..I have introduced the wife & kids to a “Clothesline”….


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## trial&error (Aug 1, 2022)

Seems to be unbalanced, it won't work that way.  That green screw in your power panel usually means ground in the powerpanel is bonded to your neutral.  Zero volts between ground and neutral and it should work.  My suspicion is the screw is no longer bonding.


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## Doug B. (Aug 1, 2022)

trial&error said:


> Seems to be unbalanced, it won't work that way.  That green screw in your power panel usually means ground in the powerpanel is bonded to your neutral.  Zero volts between ground and neutral and it should work.  My suspicion is the screw is no longer bonding.


The picture he posted plainly shows a four wire service to this sub panel.  If that is the case and the ground and neutrals are separated, as required by code on newer construction, then the ground SHOULD NOT be bonded to the neutral.  Your post will cause confusion!!!   Do not bond the ground and neutral if you have a four wire service!!!!!


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## trial&error (Aug 1, 2022)

I didn't put the green screw in.  This is in a shed of undisclosed year of construction/wiring, and possibly being fed from the house of unknown construction/wiring year.  A 3 wire cord is being used for the dryer.  If they were built at separate times the available products to wire it changed.  

Long story short the voltage is not balanced, and it isn't working.


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## Doug B. (Aug 1, 2022)

trial&error said:


> I didn't put the green screw in.  This is in a shed of undisclosed year of construction/wiring, and possibly being fed from the house of unknown construction/wiring year.  A 3 wire cord is being used for the dryer.  If they were built at separate times the available products to wire it changed.
> 
> Long story short the voltage is not balanced, and it isn't working.


That is correct.  The load isn't balanced. But it is not because of the bonding screw if it is a four wire service which is what is shown in the picture from the OP.  

You said yours was a three wire cord, so if the service was three wire then you would use the bonding screw.  I take the bonding screw completely out when I do a new service just to keep somebody from bonding the ground to neutral. It should stay separated all the way to the meter base.


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## Milkman (Aug 1, 2022)

I am closing the thread until the OP is ready to post after he has time to look at the problem again.

Deep rabbit hole here.

OP let me know if you ever want to reply again


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