# I don't have the faith to be an atheist.



## christianhunter (Feb 9, 2010)

I really don't!To believe uniformity and harmony came from chaos,or a bigbang.To believe there is a missing link,and all we have to do is find it,All the while having the apes still with us.To believe every living thing emerged from a primordial pool of sludge.To believe that all of the different languages just came about.To believe that given any billion year time frame that anything can or will happen.To believe we reached an advanced state of knowledge over all other creatures,just by a time span.Such great faith it takes to be an atheist.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 9, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I really don't!To believe uniformity and harmony came from chaos,or a bigbang.To believe there is a missing link,and all we have to do is find it,All the while having the apes still with us.To believe every living thing emerged from a primordial pool of sludge.To believe that all of the different languages just came about.To believe that given any billion year time frame that anything can or will happen.To believe we reached an advanced state of knowledge over all other creatures,just by a time span.Such great faith it takes to be an atheist.



I don't think I could ever believe that.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 9, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I really don't!To believe uniformity and harmony came from chaos,or a bigbang.To believe there is a missing link,and all we have to do is find it,All the while having the apes still with us.To believe every living thing emerged from a primordial pool of sludge.To believe that all of the different languages just came about.To believe that given any billion year time frame that anything can or will happen.To believe we reached an advanced state of knowledge over all other creatures,just by a time span.Such great faith it takes to be an atheist.



ch, yes we all came from rocks and the missing link is REAL!


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## earl (Feb 9, 2010)

I think it takes an incredible leap of faith to believe that any man knows the who ,what ,or even when of our beginnings.


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## christianhunter (Feb 9, 2010)

earl said:


> I think it takes an incredible leap of faith to believe that any man knows the who ,what ,or even when of our beginnings.



Now look what you have done buddy,you brought that mean looking dog,licking his chops.


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## possum steak (Feb 10, 2010)

to the OP, have you ever listened to Frank Turek's series on "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist?"

Turek is a well know Christian apologists & debates high profile atheists.

you can Youtube any of his videos, lots of them out there.


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## earl (Feb 10, 2010)

I certainly don't have enough ''faith'' to mess with momma when he's around.


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## pnome (Feb 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I really don't!To believe uniformity and harmony came from chaos,or a bigbang.To believe there is a missing link,and all we have to do is find it,All the while having the apes still with us.To believe every living thing emerged from a primordial pool of sludge.To believe that all of the different languages just came about.To believe that given any billion year time frame that anything can or will happen.To believe we reached an advanced state of knowledge over all other creatures,just by a time span.Such great faith it takes to be an atheist.



All of these things may turn out to be wrong.  But they are conclusion that are drawn from the evidence available to us.

What you have faith in, what you believe, you have absolutely 0 evidence for.   How did you draw your conclusion?  Or was it drawn for you when you were brainwashed to believe it?


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## christianhunter (Feb 10, 2010)

possum steak said:


> to the OP, have you ever listened to Frank Turek's series on "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist?"
> 
> Turek is a well know Christian apologists & debates high profile atheists.
> 
> you can Youtube any of his videos, lots of them out there.



No I haven't thanks for the info,I'll give him a listen.


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## Randy (Feb 10, 2010)

I have enough faith to believe God did it pretty much like the scientific evidence shows and the Bible backs it up.


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## christianhunter (Feb 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> All of these things may turn out to be wrong.  But they are conclusion that are drawn from the evidence available to us.
> 
> What you have faith in, what you believe, you have absolutely 0 evidence for.   How did you draw your conclusion?  Or was it drawn for you when you were brainwashed to believe it?



I wasn't raised in a Christian home.I did a Thread on this last year so I'll keep it short.Although I wasn't raised in a Christian home,I believed in GOD.I believed in HIS SON JESUS.I grew up committing more than my fair share of sin and,running from GOD.A broken Spirit and the WORD of GOD given to me at my appointed time was my Salvation.This brainwashing torted by unbelievers is a farce.There is no brainwashing,and believing in GOD is not enough.You have to be saved to understand,and really see how GOD is in all around you.All that takes is a simple request,to ask HIM to save your soul.Its that simple and,man makes it so complex.I believe because HE pricked my heart,and I listened and was obedient to HIS calling.
Faith is the evidence of things NOT seen!


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## pnome (Feb 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I wasn't raised in a Christian home.I did a Thread on this last year so I'll keep it short.Although I wasn't raised in a Christian home,I believed in GOD.I believed in HIS SON JESUS.I grew up committing more than my fair share of sin and,running from GOD.A broken Spirit and the WORD of GOD given to me at my appointed time was my Salvation.This brainwashing torted by unbelievers is a farce.There is no brainwashing,and believing in GOD is not enough.You have to be saved to understand,and really see how GOD is in all around you.All that takes is a simple request,to ask HIM to save your soul.Its that simple and,man makes it so complex.I believe because HE pricked my heart,and I listened and was obedient to HIS calling.



So, your "spirit was broken" and then the WORD of GOD was "given" to you?   Sounds like someone took advantage of you when you were in a vulnerable position.  (not at all an uncommon technique for religious evangelists).  Still looks like brainwashing to me.

At any rate, I have asked God (your God) to save my soul and to show himself to me.  I'm still waiting.


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## christianhunter (Feb 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> So, your "spirit was broken" and then the WORD of GOD was "given" to you?   Sounds like someone took advantage of you when you were in a vulnerable position.  (not at all an uncommon technique for religious evangelists).  Still looks like brainwashing to me.
> 
> At any rate, I have asked God (your God) to save my soul and to show himself to me.  I'm still waiting.



I was up all alone at 11:00 pm,and the TV was on.They were having Mass I guess,I'm not Catholic.They were speaking in Latin,and that is greek to me.An over whelming sense of dread and fear came over me.There was no coaxing,or push from an Evangelist.The reason you may be still waiting is that you were not sincere.You are not going to see lightening bolts,or hear bells ringing.YOU HAVE TO BE SINCERE.THIS IS NOT AN EXPERIMENT.Believe and You WILL be saved!


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## GONfishin (Feb 10, 2010)

I hate to put it this way, but I don't know of any nice words to use to get the same point across.  Keep in mind that this is my opinion and nothing more.  I have to no sources to cite.

Religion is more of a tool than a truth.  Some people need to think that there is something our there.  It gives them purpose, courage, and many other attributes that they would never show otherwise.  Religion pushes them beyond what they thought they could ever do.  It explains things that they don't have the knowledge to explain.  In the end, however, religion is just a tool to "trick" peoples' brains whether it be in giving confidence in one's self or believing that someone controls something outside of the laws of physics.


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2010)

Randy said:


> I have enough faith to believe God did it pretty much like the scientific evidence shows and the Bible backs it up.



What has the scientific evidence shown you in regards to the age of the Earth?



squeak12 said:


> I hate to put it this way, but I don't know of any nice words to use to get the same point across.  Keep in mind that this is my opinion and nothing more.  I have to no sources to cite.
> 
> Religion is more of a tool than a truth.  Some people need to think that there is something our there.  It gives them purpose, courage, and many other attributes that they would never show otherwise.  Religion pushes them beyond what they thought they could ever do.  It explains things that they don't have the knowledge to explain.  In the end, however, religion is just a tool to "trick" peoples' brains whether it be in giving confidence in one's self or believing that someone controls something outside of the laws of physics.



If one has faith in God, one doesn't need physics.  If God tells someone to jump off a bridge and that he will make them"fall" up, they better listen.  It would be a great testament to one's faith.


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## christianhunter (Feb 10, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> What has the scientific evidence shown you in regards to the age of the Earth?
> 
> 
> 
> If one has faith in God, one doesn't need physics.  If God tells someone to jump off a bridge and that he will make them"fall" up, they better listen.  It would be a great testament to one's faith.



On that one you are absolutely correct.There would still be those who WOULD NOT Believe.Even some who saw Lazurus rise from the dead,turned from THE LORD.Seeing is not always believing.


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## 1john4:4 (Feb 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I wasn't raised in a Christian home.I did a Thread on this last year so I'll keep it short.Although I wasn't raised in a Christian home,I believed in GOD.I believed in HIS SON JESUS.I grew up committing more than my fair share of sin and,running from GOD.A broken Spirit and the WORD of GOD given to me at my appointed time was my Salvation.This brainwashing torted by unbelievers is a farce.There is no brainwashing,and believing in GOD is not enough.You have to be saved to understand,and really see how GOD is in all around you.All that takes is a simple request,to ask HIM to save your soul.Its that simple and,man makes it so complex.I believe because HE pricked my heart,and I listened and was obedient to HIS calling.
> Faith is the evidence of things NOT seen!





Awsome post CH! I can relate exactly. So can many other people at different times, in different places, BUT called by the same ONE!


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## Randy (Feb 10, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> What has the scientific evidence shown you in regards to the age of the Earth?



Scientific evidence shows the earth to be more than the "traditional" 6000 years the Bible says but the Bible uses the term days and I do not believe days then are the same as days now.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> So, your "spirit was broken" and then the WORD of GOD was "given" to you?   Sounds like someone took advantage of you when you were in a vulnerable position.  (not at all an uncommon technique for religious evangelists).  Still looks like brainwashing to me.
> 
> At any rate, I have asked God (your God) to save my soul and to show himself to me.  I'm still waiting.



pnome, when do you go see a medical doctor?  when you have the sniffles? probably not.  what about a cold? probably not? you like most people wont go to a dr, until they are really sick...

most people dont see the need for a medical dr. until they are really ill.

God, being the Great Physician is similar.  most people think that they are good people. they're ok or not too bad. well, they have never murdered anyone. they dont rob banks.  they dont throw puppies off bridges...  so people are basically good, right?

thats not what the God of the Bible says.  He says people are sick and wicked.  from our perspective that is hard to understand... because we were taught to see the good in people... but from His perspective, people are rotten. remember He is perfect and holy.

my point is, until we recognize that we are really ill, we wont go to the dr...

and until we recognize our spiritual deadness, we wont come to Christ, who will heal us if we truly seek Him.  once a person really understands that they are spiritually sick and are in need of the Great Physician (Matt 9:12)... and they understand that Christ is the only Physician that can heal them of their spiritual deadness, they will then understand that only Christ can save them...

a person who thinks they are "good" may never find the Christ of the Bible and true salvation because of their pride  (1 John 2:16)  but when a person understands their sins and their inability to be righteous (Jer 17:9), they can find salvation, by coming to Christ humbly.

Matthew 7:7-8
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

if you really want to know what it means to "come to Christ" instead of just asking Him to show Himself to you....  take a couple of hours of quiet time and listen to these teachings.  God has said in the Bible that He has already shown Himself to you and you still believe not... (Matt 21:32, John 3:12, John 4:48).

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakerWithinSource=&subsetCat=&subsetItem=&mediatype=&includekeywords=&keyword=John^Weaver&keyworddesc=John+Weaver&currsection=sermonsspeaker&AudioOnly=false&SpeakerOnly=true&keywordwithin=coming+to+christ&x=0&y=0


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> pnome, when do you go see a medical doctor?  when you have the sniffles? probably not.  what about a cold? probably not? you like most people wont go to a dr, until they are really sick...
> 
> most people dont see the need for a medical dr. until they are really ill.
> 
> ...



Anyone who tries to tell this garbage to my little girl will get a sock to the jawbone.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 10, 2010)

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 11, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Anyone who tries to tell this garbage to my little girl will get a sock to the jawbone.



LOL    Tell us how you feel, Ambush!!!!


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## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL    Tell us how you feel, Ambush!!!!



Her grandparents know better than to test me on this.


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## DS7418 (Feb 11, 2010)

I have seen people leave this world in peace because they had blind-faith,, I will never have that comfort,, and I can't help it. Ingornance really is bless,, and a blessing.


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## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2010)

DS7418 said:


> I have seen people leave this world in peace because they had blind-faith,, I will never have that comfort,, and I can't help it. Ingornance really is bless,, and a blessing.



Then take comfort in the fact that "stuff just happens".  No one was pulling the strings, no one was using your ordeal as a "lesson" and it didn't have anything to do with "deserving" it or not.  That can give you peace as well.


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## Thanatos (Feb 11, 2010)

All the evidence a man would need to "see" God is right in front of you. 

The key ingredient to knowing the wickedness of man is self awareness. If you take an objective look at your thoughts and actions you will see what I mean. 

pnome! Dude! I am so happy that you started asking that question. 

Look at the picture below. To understand just how big of a mindbleep this picture is, it's of a patch of sky that (to the naked eye) is completely empty, and based on our knowledge of physics the large yellow-white spiral galaxy in the bottom right circled in red is to big to exist.


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## Thanatos (Feb 11, 2010)

Score: God 1 Atheist 0


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## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> All the evidence a man would need to "see" God is right in front of you.
> 
> The key ingredient to knowing the wickedness of man is self awareness. If you take an objective look at your thoughts and actions you will see what I mean.
> 
> ...



People used to hide from lightning.   

We should just give up trying to figure out why that is.

I had some thoughts today that were pretty pleasant.


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## Thanatos (Feb 11, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> We should just give up trying to figure out why that is.



The point of that picture is to show that the people who have faith in science (i believe in science) have belief in a flawed system that has new ideas to understand and explore as well. It also let's us all know we are insignificant dew drops that evaporate into the morning air as the sun rises every day. 

I am sure you had pleasant thoughts. Most people do. Were they self pleasing, or would they be pleasing to others too?

Ambush are you going to let your daughter decide if she wants to be religious or not? Or, are you going to shove atheism down her throat like your parents shoved Christianity down yours?


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## formula1 (Feb 11, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> I really don't!To believe uniformity and harmony came from chaos,or a bigbang.To believe there is a missing link,and all we have to do is find it,All the while having the apes still with us.To believe every living thing emerged from a primordial pool of sludge.To believe that all of the different languages just came about.To believe that given any billion year time frame that anything can or will happen.To believe we reached an advanced state of knowledge over all other creatures,just by a time span.Such great faith it takes to be an atheist.



The atheists on this forum don't have faith to be one either.  That's why they are on a Spiritual forum trying to find justification for their ideals.  And you guys don't waste your typing on me, I have most of you blocked anyway.

You and I CH, well you know our justification resides in the Work of the Cross!  No need for us to head on over to a atheist forum and find a outlet for our wares.


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## christianhunter (Feb 11, 2010)

formula1 said:


> The atheists on this forum don't have faith to be one either.  That's why they are on a Spiritual forum trying to find justification for their ideals.  And you guys don't waste your typing on me, I have most of you blocked anyway.
> 
> You and I CH, well you know our justification resides in the Work of the Cross!  No need for us to head on over to a atheist forum and find a outlet for our wares.



You would not see me on an atheist forum,you are right on the money there Brother.Thank THE LORD we do not have to make a spectacle of ourselves to be heard.We simply Believe.Good to hear from you Brother.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2010)

formula1 said:


> The atheists on this forum don't have faith to be one either.  That's why they are on a Spiritual forum trying to find justification for their ideals.  And you guys don't waste your typing on me, I have most of you blocked anyway.
> 
> You and I CH, well you know our justification resides in the Work of the Cross!  No need for us to head on over to a atheist forum and find a outlet for our wares.



I suspect you're completely right.


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## Thanatos (Feb 12, 2010)

formula1 said:


> The atheists on this forum don't have faith to be one either.  That's why they are on a Spiritual forum trying to find justification for their ideals.  And you guys don't waste your typing on me, I have most of you blocked anyway.
> 
> You and I CH, well you know our justification resides in the Work of the Cross!  No need for us to head on over to a atheist forum and find a outlet for our wares.



Someone is on the spiritual forum asking questions about God and we should ignore them???????????????


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## formula1 (Feb 12, 2010)

*Re:*



Thanatos said:


> Someone is on the spiritual forum asking questions about God and we should ignore them???????????????



Plant and water if you wish, as much as you desire. But that is not the subject at hand on this post.


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## pnome (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> All the evidence a man would need to "see" God is right in front of you.
> 
> The key ingredient to knowing the wickedness of man is self awareness. If you take an objective look at your thoughts and actions you will see what I mean.
> 
> ...



I love that picture.  I've got the high resolution version on my pc at home.  I like to zoom in on different sections.  You just end up seeing more galaxies.  It's crazy.

Now, you're telling me that the answer to all of that, is in just one book?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 12, 2010)

I believe the answer to that picture would fit in one sentence, no matter what it is.     God.  Chance+Time.   There's only one right answer...


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## gtparts (Feb 12, 2010)

"I'm chosen." "I'm special." "I'm better than a non-believer." "I'm too good to waste my time with them." is NOT the mantra of a Christian.

If there was such a thing, it might read like this.....

"I'm chosen and I choose. I am no better than a non-believer except by the grace of God. His grace is freely offered to all. I will spend whatever time God calls me to use in spreading the Gospel, with whomever He gives me directions to do so. It is neither my job to argue with or to convince the lost. Conviction, as with salvation, is from the LORD, not men."


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## pnome (Feb 12, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I believe the answer to that picture would fit in one sentence, no matter what it is.     God.  Chance+Time.   There's only one right answer...



There is only one right answer, but I'm pretty sure that answer is not a part of your dichotomy.


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## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> The point of that picture is to show that the people who have faith in science (i believe in science) have belief in a flawed system that has new ideas to understand and explore as well. It also let's us all know we are insignificant dew drops that evaporate into the morning air as the sun rises every day.



I have a deep sense of this as well.  But I see that people that believe that they are somehow unique or distinct and they will continue on after "evaporating in the sun" approach the world they live in in a way that I would not like to.  I see a lot of pain and self loathing from believers; they can't wait to get to Heaven.  As if being here is so bad.  Well, how you perceive your time here is entirely within your control.  It's a little sad to me.  I'd rather make the most of here and now.  It's all I can know for certain. An after life?  I've heard the legends, I just don't "feel it in my bones".



Thanatos said:


> I am sure you had pleasant thoughts. Most people do. Were they self pleasing, or would they be pleasing to others too?




They were pleasing to me and another simultaneously. When I was playing with my little one, there was nothing but joy and sunshine and neither of us felt like we were unworthy scum.

Do we "really" ever do anything but out of self interest?  Love?  Sacrifice?  Wanting to live forever in paradise or sparing one's self from eternal torment?



Thanatos said:


> Ambush are you going to let your daughter decide if she wants to be religious or not? Or, are you going to shove atheism down her throat like your parents shoved Christianity down yours?



I will teach her to think critically and to reason.  I will explain to her what superstition is and how it affects the psyche.  My parents were Unitarians till they moved here.  Neither Christianity nor the concept of God was shoved down my throat.  I regret that I was indoctrinated with the notions of God and the Devil and He!! before I had the ability to think about them critically.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 12, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I will teach her to think critically and to reason.  I will explain to her what superstition is and how it affects the psyche.  My parents were Unitarians till they moved here.  Neither Christianity nor the concept of God was shoved down my throat.  I regret that I was indoctrinated with the notions of God and the Devil and He!! before I had the ability to think about them critically.



Make sure you tell her that this "Jesus" guy was historical, and all the churches she sees are here because of the evidence for His resurrection.    You can tell her that the bible, especially the NT, has not changed since men wrote about their experiences with Jesus in the 1st century.   

His tomb is empty.
His followers gave their lives believing they had seen Him after His burial
Anyone can meet Him today.

"More Than A Carpenter" might be a good read for her if she's old enough.


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## earl (Feb 12, 2010)

Also teach her how the ''world'' comes to a standstill every December 25th so a fat jolly man with a beard can come down her chimney bearing gifts from a list she mailed to him at the North Pole. 
And that Easter rabbit bearing colored eggs,choclate bunnies ,and PEEPS.
And that tooth fairy that looks like  The Rock that leaves money under her pillow for that tooth.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 12, 2010)

earl said:


> Also teach her how the ''world'' comes to a standstill every December 25th so a fat jolly man with a beard can come down her chimney bearing gifts from a list she mailed to him at the North Pole.
> And that Easter rabbit bearing colored eggs,choclate bunnies ,and PEEPS.
> And that tooth fairy that looks like  The Rock that leaves money under her pillow for that tooth.



Why would he teach her those when they aren't factual historical figures?   Are these taught to adults anywhere in the world?  Or were they always meant for children?

Jesus appeals to a man's intellect and his spirit.


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## Phillip Thurmond (Feb 12, 2010)

I guess that the only answer I can give this blog is this
Fact: 1. Jesus did live and walked the earth!
Fact: 2. Jesus was crucified on the cross
Fact : 3. Jesus was placed in a tomb and was dead for 3 days
Fact: 4 Jesus rose again and walked the earth and people saw him and talked to him. 
Now I don't know about you but only God can do something like that. 
also Jesus did some other God stuff while he was here like making the blind see, the crippled walk, the dead wake up, I don't think many people around can do that but GOD. That is why crowds flocked to him because he was who he said he was. 
Jesus was God in the flesh!
God said it, I believe it, that settles it!


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## earl (Feb 12, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Why would he teach her those when they aren't factual historical figures?   Are these taught to adults anywhere in the world?  Or were they always meant for children?
> 
> Jesus appeals to a man's intellect and his spirit.





If you care to do the research you will fund written histories of all these things. None of them are for the children. Wholesalers, retailers, parents trying to keep their children in line, and many others , mostly adults. 

Appeal to man's intellect is an interesting concept. I'd like to hear how that works.


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## earl (Feb 12, 2010)

Main Entry: in·tel·lect 
Pronunciation: \Ëˆin-tÉ™-ËŒlekt\
Function: noun 
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French, from Latin intellectus, from intellegere to understand â€” more at intelligent
Date: 14th century
1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will : the capacity for knowledge b : the capacity for rational or intelligent thought especially when highly developed
2 : a person with great intellectual powers


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 12, 2010)

I think we've made that pretty clear over the last few months on here.    Much discussion about the historicity of Jesus, biblical and extra-biblical references to Jesus, the fact of the empty tomb, the conversion of Saul of Tarsus, the exhaustive manuscript support for the NT, the prophecies fulfilled by Jesus, etc etc 

evidence that lets a person make an informed decision.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 12, 2010)

earl said:


> If you care to do the research you will fund written histories of all these things. None of them are for the children. Wholesalers, retailers, parents trying to keep their children in line, and many others , mostly adults.
> 
> Appeal to man's intellect is an interesting concept. I'd like to hear how that works.



So, you're saying that you know of adults who believe in Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, and/or the tooth fairy?    I don't know any adults who believe in them, nor do I know of anyone, who knows of anyone, who believes in them.


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## earl (Feb 12, 2010)

1 a : the power of knowing as distinguished from the power to feel and to will 

This definition kicks out both teh atheist and the Christian. I would agree with the ''informed decision'' however.


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## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Make sure you tell her that this "Jesus" guy was historical, and all the churches she sees are here because of the evidence
> for His resurrection.



I will also tell her about Islam and Buddhism and Wiccanism, etc.. though by that time I hope she will have access to a library and will have started to investigate them for herself.  



BANDERSNATCH said:


> You can tell her that the bible, especially the NT, has not changed since men wrote about their experiences with Jesus in the 1st century.



I can show her the the posts about the Council of Nicea and the canonization debate threads and she can make up her own mind about that.



BANDERSNATCH said:


> His tomb is empty.
> His followers gave their lives believing they had seen Him after His burial
> Anyone can meet Him today.



Her grandmother will tell her about a bar of soap that floated across the room as well.  I will remind her to not assume supernatural causes.

She should know that Allah's believers give their lives as well;  not an indication of truth.



BANDERSNATCH said:


> "More Than A Carpenter" might be a good read for her if she's old enough.



I hope she reads everything she gets her hand on.


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## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2010)

Phillip Thurmond said:


> I guess that the only answer I can give this blog is this
> Fact: 1. Jesus did live and walked the earth!
> Fact: 2. Jesus was crucified on the cross
> Fact : 3. Jesus was placed in a tomb and was dead for 3 days
> ...



Ever seen a ghost?


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## christianhunter (Feb 12, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Ever seen a ghost?



He was not a ghost,nor was Lazurus.The Risen LORD was in a Spiritual resurrected Body.Lazurus was resurrected as he was before he died.No ghosts here!


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## ambush80 (Feb 12, 2010)

My point is that there are some people that believe in ghosts and other people try to find another explanation.


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## Diogenes (Feb 13, 2010)

Yâ€™know, I tried really hard to read this whole thread with an open mind.  I did.  But then this came along â€“ CH: â€œHe was not a ghost,nor was Lazurus.The Risen LORD was in a Spiritual resurrected Body.Lazurus was resurrected as he was before he died.No ghosts here!â€�   

Um?  Spiritual resurrected BODIES?  So they were zombies?  And what happened to the second body they were â€˜Spiritually resurrectedâ€™  in?  Did the second body eventually die?  Or would you have it that the resurrected BODY was not a body at all, but actually a â€˜Spiritualâ€™ body â€“ and so sort of the definition of a â€˜ghostâ€™?  A body that is not actually of the flesh?  Sort of like the body politic, or the body of theology?  Or the body of rationalizing nonsense?

The OP starts quite simply: â€œTo believe uniformity and harmony came from chaos,or a bigbang.To believe there is a missing link,and all we have to do is find it,All the while having the apes still with us.To believe every living thing emerged from a primordial pool of sludge.To believe that all of the different languages just came about.To believe that given any billion year time frame that anything can or will happen.To believe we reached an advanced state of knowledge over all other creatures,just by a time span.Such great faith it takes to be an atheist.â€�  

Sigh.  Not beliefs, at all, rather pretty good ideas arrived at empirically, not all fully proven,  but doing a pretty good job of advancing rather than regressing, but do us a favor -- Cite a few examples of uniformity and harmony.  We have photographs of entire galaxies crashing into each other.  We live on a planet that is so unsettled and in such flux that thousands of people die each year due to earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.  We live on a planet that is pock-marked by random asteroids and strapped with a shifting magnetic field.  One cannot be so naïve as to gloss over such things â€“ the full truth of the world, and the universe around us, is hardly uniform and harmoniousâ€”simple observation bears that out.  If you believe the contention to be true, then wander out into the woods with only the shirt on your back, and write back in a few weeks, if you can.  Your â€˜uniformity and harmonyâ€™ canâ€™t stand up to that test.  The reality is that either something will kill you, or you will kill it, purely to survive.  That truth, certainly, belies â€˜harmony.â€™  And â€˜uniformity?â€™  Be serious.  Find me two things on this planet alone that are identical in every way.   

As to the apes, and the primordial soup, and the languages, and the time frames â€“ well, the â€˜advanced state of knowledgeâ€™ seems to not have filtered down.  â€œSuch great faith it takes to be an atheist.â€�   Um?  Really?

You mean to maintain, without a sly grin, that you have studied the Red Queen hypothesis, and the evidence to support it (to cite one of tens of thousands of examples), and find that the hypothesis that some invisible, unknown, unseen fairy in the sky caused everything to simply pop into existence, as we know existence, is the more credible?  

Does it really take more â€˜faithâ€™ to follow the evidence than to leap to the conclusion that everything is perfect and flawless, was Created perfect by a Perfect being, and thus can stand no further scrutiny?  Does it take â€˜great faithâ€™ to simply study phenomena, and try to solve them, or do you suggest that simply accepting your Invisible Force that is behind all things requires less faith?

Oops.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 13, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I hope she reads everything she gets her hand on.



Good.   She should know about everything....Islam, Eastern religions, Christianity, the Council, etc.   She should be allowed to make an informed decision herself, and adhere to the worldview of her choice!   She shouldn't have any religion, including Christianity, crammed down her throat.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 13, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Um?  Spiritual resurrected BODIES?  So they were zombies?  And what happened to the second body they were ‘Spiritually resurrected’  in?  Did the second body eventually die?  Or would you have it that the resurrected BODY was not a body at all, but actually a ‘Spiritual’ body – and so sort of the definition of a ‘ghost’?  A body that is not actually of the flesh?  Sort of like the body politic, or the body of theology?  Or the body of rationalizing nonsense?



Sigh.   Duh!   Of course Lazarus, and all the others who were resurrected, eventually died.   Nowhere in the NT is it implied or stated that they were raised to never die again.     

Are you building another straw man?   Resurrection was always physical....as they ate, drank, walked, partied, etc.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 13, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> You mean to maintain, without a sly grin, that you have studied the Red Queen hypothesis, and the evidence to support it (to cite one of tens of thousands of examples), and find that the hypothesis that some invisible, unknown, unseen fairy in the sky caused everything to simply pop into existence, as we know existence, is the more credible?



http://www.creationsafaris.com/crev201002.htm    (point #3)    

the Red Queen hypothesis is yet another dead theory.    Looks like you're slow on getting the latest knowledge there bro.    "tens of thousands of examples".   LOL

Hit the books.    Primordial soup....dead.   Red Queen....dead.      Much to learn young Jedi.


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## Thanatos (Feb 14, 2010)

I want to clarify this statement. "It also let's us all know we are insignificant dew drops that evaporate into the morning air as the sun rises every day."

This is my opinion. We are all significant as children of God on planet earth. We should spread our religion to every corner of this planet. (not forcibly, nor aggressively i might add) In this aspect we are very significant to the events on this earth.  But, looking at pictures of the cosmos helps us understand how small a part of God's creations we are. On a cosmic scale we are insignificant as I see it in my limited perspective.


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## Thanatos (Feb 14, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Sigh.  Not beliefs, at all, rather pretty good ideas arrived at empirically, not all fully proven,  but doing a pretty good job of advancing rather than regressing, but do us a favor -- Cite a few examples of uniformity and harmony.  We have photographs of entire galaxies crashing into each other.  We live on a planet that is so unsettled and in such flux that thousands of people die each year due to earthquakes and volcanic eruptions.  We live on a planet that is pock-marked by random asteroids and strapped with a shifting magnetic field.  One cannot be so naïve as to gloss over such things â€“ the full truth of the world, and the universe around us, is hardly uniform and harmoniousâ€”simple observation bears that out.  If you believe the contention to be true, then wander out into the woods with only the shirt on your back, and write back in a few weeks, if you can.  Your â€˜uniformity and harmonyâ€™ canâ€™t stand up to that test.  The reality is that either something will kill you, or you will kill it, purely to survive.  That truth, certainly, belies â€˜harmony.â€™  And â€˜uniformity?â€™  Be serious.  Find me two things on this planet alone that are identical in every way.



Come on Dio. 

If you know enough about our planet and the events that cause harm to human beings, then you also know what it took for human beings to have existed at all on this planet. We have discussed the "Goldy Locks" theory before so I will not rehash it. You have to admit the chances of humans existing for as long as we have on this rock are pretty incredible. If you are going to say it was bound to happen some time, some where, then don't bother. We have hashed that out too.


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## tell sackett (Feb 14, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Anyone who tries to tell this garbage to my little girl will get a sock to the jawbone.


My, how tolerant you are Grandma! That there's funny. An atheist who rarely misses an opportunity to slam Christianity for supposed intolerance threatening bodily harm to those same Christians.


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## christianhunter (Feb 14, 2010)

Not to quote an individual who is on my ignore list,but others have, I will address a few things.Marked by collisions,yes the earth is marked by collisions.One spoken of in THE BIBLE.Worm wood yet to come,but soaring in the cosmos,with the same name,to hit the earth one day.Ressurected bodies being zombies,too idiotic to comment on,he claims to have read the Bible,several versions as a matter of fact.The earth is in harmony,as is all of the galaxies and all known and unknown universes.As a matter of fact the only things that are not in harmony,are the creatures fortold of in the fall in the Garden.Most specifically mankind.


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## tnhikr44 (Feb 15, 2010)

By a very strange twist of fate I stumbled onto this thread. I did a search for the word 'lightning', as I was looking for the thread in the fishing forum about a father and son (I think) who got struck by lightning while out fishing. There was a video interview with these gentlemen included in the thread. After they were struck by lightning their burnt up bodies were pulled from the water by a fisherman that just happened to see the lightning strike. During the interview they both thanked God for the heroic efforts of the rescuer. I think only I saw the irony in that.
 Point is, far be it for me to knock the Christian faith. Any faith that will open its Heavenly doors to mass murderers and rapists... hinging on a sincere deathbed cleansing of ones soul, is one worth respecting. I am no murderer and certainly no rapist, but sins I commit nonetheless. I am banking on this 'near the end' understanding, the clarity, that so many utilize right before the switch is pulled or the needle is plunged. Are they sincere? That is between them and God. Perhaps one day I will be blessed with the Faith many of you have. Until then, and until this backdoor, last minute repentance is repealed, I am going to live by the words of Billy Joel -
" I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun."


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## Thanatos (Feb 15, 2010)

tnhikr44 said:


> words of Billy Joel -
> " I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. The sinners are much more fun."



Come laugh with me I am a sinner too! 

I am not sure asking forgiveness at the last hour is as easy as you typed it to be.


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## tnhikr44 (Feb 15, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> I am not sure asking forgiveness at the last hour is as easy as you typed it to be.



 Are you so sure? I have been told that all you have to be is sincere, regardless of past transgressions? From Jack the Ripper to Osama bin Ladin... the Heavenly gates will be opened, pending sincerity. I think that trumps the 50 virgins thingy.....


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 15, 2010)

the thief on the cross was as good of an example as you can ask for when it comes to last-minute conversions.   The Lord saw sincerity in his words...and a lifetime of sin and crime was wiped away.   

Are you saying that only the worst of the worst sinners shouldn't be given forgiveness at the last minute if they are truly repentant?    Or is it just for us who never murder?

I'm amazed at what God was already willing to forgive me for.   Like the Booth Brothers song said, "When He saved me He knew what I had done, what I would do".    He's forgiven me now for a lifetime of sin.


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> My, how tolerant you are Grandma! That there's funny. An atheist who rarely misses an opportunity to slam Christianity for supposed intolerance threatening bodily harm to those same Christians.



I don't slam Christianity or any other religion for being intolerant;  that's how I expect them to act.  I slam the religious for being irrational, which leads to their intolerance.  As for myself, I take a pragmatic approach to determining what to be intolerant of.


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## gtparts (Feb 15, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I don't slam Christianity or any other religion for being intolerant;  that's how I expect them to act.  I slam the religious for being irrational, which leads to their intolerance.  As for myself, I take a pragmatic approach to determining what to be intolerant of.



You seem to endorse intolerance..... at least the ones to which you ascribe. Sauce for the goose.....?


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## tell sackett (Feb 15, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I don't slam Christianity or any other religion for being intolerant;  that's how I expect them to act.  I slam the religious for being irrational, which leads to their intolerance.  As for myself, I take a pragmatic approach to determining what to be intolerant of.


You expect Christians to be intolerant? Careful, your prejudice and intolerance is showing.

I take it from your last sentence that your intolerance is good, but anybody else's is bad. Like gt said...


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> You expect Christians to be intolerant? Careful, your prejudice and intolerance is showing.
> 
> I take it from your last sentence that your intolerance is good, but anybody else's is bad. Like gt said...



I know that religious people have rules that they are very inflexible about; though they don't always agree about what those rules are, even within specific religions.  Never the less, they are intolerant of anything going against their dogma (the one's that they have "discerned" for themselves).   It's what they do.

My "rules" are open to discussion.  If someone can give me a rational reason to believe otherwise, I consider it.  It's a system that I feel comfortable with.  It doesn't interfere with my desire to be rational.


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## tell sackett (Feb 15, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I know that religious people have rules that they are very inflexible about; though they don't always agree about what those rules are, even within specific religions.  Never the less, they are intolerant of anything going against their dogma (the one's that they have "discerned" for themselves).   It's what they do.
> 
> My "rules" are open to discussion.  If someone can give me a rational reason to believe otherwise, I consider it.  It's a system that I feel comfortable with.  It doesn't interfere with my desire to be rational.


So now , not only are we intolerant, but we're irrational too?

I will grant you this: I am inflexible about the fundamentals of the Christian faith(hint: see sig line for the most inflexible one). We believers all have an imperfect understanding of God's Word, and we are all constantly debating and learning. We'll never understand it all in this life, but that doesn't change the truth of the Gospel.

I want to add this about your threat to punch out anyone who witnesses to your daughter. Sir, I don't have the privilege of knowing you or your daughter, but if circumstances ever bring us together and the Lord lays it on my heart to tell her that Jesus Christ loves her so much that He died for her so that she might have forgiveness and eternal life, then that is exactly what I will do. If the thought of that upsets you so much that you feel the need to take a swing at me, then swing away. When I get up, I'll be glad to tell you the same good news.


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> So now , not only are we intolerant, but we're irrational too?
> 
> I will grant you this: I am inflexible about the fundamentals of the Christian faith(hint: see sig line for the most inflexible one). We believers all have an imperfect understanding of God's Word, and we are all constantly debating and learning. We'll never understand it all in this life, but that doesn't change the truth of the Gospel.



Which you will admittedly never completely understand in this life, yet you will continue to try to tell people that you do.



tell sackett said:


> I want to add this about your threat to punch out anyone who witnesses to your daughter. Sir, I don't have the privilege of knowing you or your daughter, but if circumstances ever bring us together and the Lord lays it on my heart to tell her that Jesus Christ loves her so much that He died for her so that she might have forgiveness and eternal life, then that is exactly what I will do. If the thought of that upsets you so much that you feel the need to take a swing at me, then swing away. When I get up, I'll be glad to tell you the same good news.



She and I will kindly cross over to the other side of the street and give you pass.  If you follow us, then you will have been given fair warning.


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## tell sackett (Feb 15, 2010)

[COLOR=[QUOTE="ambush80, post: 4636223"]Which you will admittedly never completely understand in this life, yet you will continue to try to tell people that you do.Where, pray tell, did I state that I understand it all?

She and I will kindly cross over to the other side of the street and give you pass.  If you follow us, then you will have been given fair warning.[/QUOTE]Once again, striking a blow for tolerance.

I also like how you state in one breath that you will teach her to think critically, then turn around and tell us how you'll go out of your way to prevent it.

Once again, I'll do what I feel I'm called to do.( I'm coming back to add here that I will not attempt to force my views on anyone, but I also will not be intimidated into being silent)  You do what you feel you have to do. Now, I'm pretty much done. You have a blessed day.


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> [COLOR=[COLOR="red"]Once again, striking a blow for tolerance.[/COLOR]
> 
> I also like how you state in one breath that you will teach her to think critically, then turn around and tell us how you'll go out of your way to prevent it.
> 
> Once again, I'll do what I feel I'm called to do.( I'm coming back to add here that I will not attempt to force my views on anyone, but I also will not be intimidated into being silent)  You do what you feel you have to do. Now, I'm pretty much done. You have a blessed day.



You point to your sig line whose meaning I assume you feel you  understand with crystal clarity.  Any chance another Christian might disagree with you on what it means?

There are some things that I want to expose my child to myself.  Sex-ed and religious dogmas included.  I would take issue with someone attempting to subvert my wishes when it comes to the rearing of my child.


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## Madman (Feb 15, 2010)

Originally Posted by ambush80  
Which you will admittedly never completely understand in this life, yet you will continue to try to tell people that you do.Where, pray tell, did I state that I understand it all?

TS,

They do not, and do not want to, understand the difference in "The esentials" and those things "not necessary" for salvation.

You will not find one Christian who does not believe that Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life.  If they make such a claim they need to return to Christianity 101.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 15, 2010)

John 14:6  Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This statement is either true or false.   If true, then Jesus is the only way.   If false, then Jesus is a liar.


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## WTM45 (Feb 15, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> This statement is either true or false.   If true, then Jesus is the only way.   If false, then Jesus is a liar.



A rather significant portion of the world's population and their various religious belief systems emphatically support the negative.
Including Judiasm.

As simple as it is for a Christian to reject all other religious belief systems, it is easy for an Atheist to reject them all.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 15, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> A rather significant portion of the world's population and their various religious belief systems emphatically support the negative.
> Including Judiasm.
> 
> As simple as it is for a Christian to reject all other religious belief systems, it is easy for an Atheist to reject them all.



You're absolutely right, WTM.    Even if all the world refused to believe in Jesus, that doesn't make what He said true or untrue.   It is irrelevant.    

All religions can be wrong, but they can't all be right.    Two things can't be opposite and true at the same time.


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## ambush80 (Feb 15, 2010)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> You're absolutely right, WTM.    Even if all the world refused to believe in Jesus, that doesn't make what He said true or untrue.   It is irrelevant.
> 
> All religions can be wrong, but they can't all be right.    Two things can't be opposite and true at the same time.



God is not subject to these Earthly truisms. He exists on a plane unencumbered by reason.


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## Diogenes (Feb 17, 2010)

Bandersnatch, being long suffering, states: “Sigh. Duh! Of course Lazarus, and all the others who were resurrected, eventually died. Nowhere in the NT is it implied or stated that they were raised to never die again.”   Um?  So, when CH says, “The Risen LORD was in a Spiritual resurrected Body,” then what you are saying is that it is obvious, even to an idiot such as I, that this Lord was resurrected as a bodily entity, then died a second time?  Which Feast Day celebrates the Second Death?  I must have missed that chapter about the Second Dying of Christ’s bodily incarnation  . . .

And Bandersnatch again, well ahead of the curve, states, “Hit the books. Primordial soup....dead. Red Queen....dead. Much to learn young Jedi.”    Of course, such ‘concepts’ are old, dated, and outmoded compared to an ancient text written by multiple unknown authors.  Clearly all the answers are in there.  You say so, thus it must be so.

Then Thanatos, also long suffering, states, “You have to admit the chances of humans existing for as long as we have on this rock are pretty incredible. If you are going to say it was bound to happen some time, some where, then don't bother. We have hashed that out too.”   But, actually, the whole ‘we’ve been through that’ sort of dismissal is designed to create the illusion that the matter is long settled, and you do not wish to be bothered with things that have already passed into the realm of established fact.  And, again, clearly your doctrines, and yours alone, are considered to be factual and beyond any questioning.  But Christian doctrine hardly settles scientific inquiries.

So, really, the question ought to be: “Why would any thinking person bother talking to a Fundamentalist Christian?”  There is, after all, nothing at all to talk about, since they are right about everything simply by virtue of bashing everyone over the head with their one terribly vague ancient book.  All else is wrong, because it is not contained in that book.  End of all discussion.

Now, granted, there isn’t a single rational, reasonable, intelligent, or demonstrable reason for anyone at all to think that an all-knowing, perfect, and intelligent invisible being that is capable of creating all observable physical  realities from donuts and rainstorms to the universe itself and back again could possibly exist.  And less reason to think that such a grand work of metaphysical imagination could guide the hands and hearts and minds of each and every individual and even hear their thoughts and know their intentions. That doesn’t seem to stop anyone from believing it just the same.  

And of course everyone familiar with childhood recalls the age-old ‘you can’t prove it is wrong so therefore it is right’ sort of argument, and the ever-popular ‘it is too right – it says so right here on this bubble-gum card’ argument, and, of course, the final word – the  “my Dad says so and he’s bigger than you” argument.  Really, all it comes down to in the end seems to be bashing everyone over the head with that one book, as if the book proves itself to be correct simply by having been written.  

So no matter how incredible and irrational they are, myths still seem to hold some sort of oddly powerful hold on the popular imagination, regardless of the facts.  Who cares if the Book of Revelation was written by someone calling himself John who was certainly not the beloved Disciple nor the writer of the Fourth Gospel, even though the two stories are nearly contemporary and have been established to stem from different writers and sources?  And who cares if the entirety of Revelations sounds much like the ravings of a drug-addled lunatic who has been out in the sun too long?  

The fundamentalist swallows such ‘visions’ whole, those of a Lamb surrounded by four beasts full of eyes before and behind; the Four Horsemen of war, bloodshed, famine, and death precedes the Lamb, who somehow leads the saints and martyrs to living fountains of waters in the face of a plague of locusts from the bottomless pit, led by the king Abaddon or Apollyon (the abyss of tehom, the primeval chaos of Creation all over again).  This John the Revealer even eats a scroll which tastes like honey, but in a rebuke to Ezekiel (3:3), this pessimist who closes the final chapter of this very odd book finds the taste bitter.  As if, after reading the entire thing, the Revealer felt a need to offer a sort of revised, thundering summary of the Chain of Salvation offered previously:

We have imagery of fall and water, tree and salvation, fire and water and sacred marriage, the father’s creation and the mother’s child, paradise lost and paradise regained.  The lost Eden of Genesis was primitivistic, but here at the end we get Eden returned if the Kingdom of God is within us, and the mysterious Fortunate Fall is fulfilled and redeemed.  The Chain has come full cycle now, like all mythologies, and awaits only a repetition.  All hail!  But wait!  Okay?  Stay tuned for the re-run.  It’ll be right here . . .   

But even though all of these images and themes have been repeated endlessly with only a few variations in dozens of other mythologies and ‘belief’ systems, most far pre-dating the Fundamentalist Christian, we are told that our eternity depends entirely upon agreeing with them.  This time, you see, they not only got it right, but they have a book to bash you over the head with, and churches, and radio stations, and pretty nice suits besides . . . 

Got it.  Not only have they got the myths unerringly right this time out, but they have them refined to the point that they know exactly what the invisible, intelligent beings of their metaphysical imaginations were thinking, and what they meant.  By everything, and on every topic from radio-isotopes to space travel, and from Twinkies to the ultimate evil of evils – ‘Light’ beer.  

For people who have it all figured out though, and for whom no further delineation or enlightenment is necessary, they sure do seem like a pretty insecure bunch.  Any and all doubt or disagreement is invariably met with a good bashing by that book of theirs, complete with extensive quotations to prove that those quotations are true (because they are in the book, silly . . . ). A dozen or more centuries of bashing everyone else into agreement using every tactic imaginable, some quite horrific, seems to have done nothing to lessen the zeal to force yet more folks into agreement, though we are relieved that the tactics nowadays are mainly limited to endless insult, bullying, shouting, and proselytizing, at least in your more civilized sorts of neighborhoods.  But zealots they remain, openly hostile to any opposing thoughts, dismissive, smug, and self-righteous despite being unable to demonstrate that a single concept they champion is true.

So why bother?  Even rocks are slowly eroded into rounded pebbles and then into sand by the slow, patient truth of reality.  And reality is that religions are on the run from knowledge, and have a long history of reacting violently to truth and advances in knowledge, as they do even today.  But truth is a pretty patient thing, since it does not require anyone at all to believe in it.  It simply is.  Reality is that religions are eroding, especially Christianity, with the number of people who count themselves as ‘believers’ dropping steadily year by year.  Aggressive and sometimes violent ‘conversion’ won’t work anymore, and we’re pretty tired of threats, intimidation, inventive lies, rejection of truths, and simple fear-mongering masquerading as ‘enlightenment.’  

Education marches on.   Sorry fellas.  Y’all have built some pretty cool buildings though.  We’ll think of something to use them for after this most recent round of sectarian, mythological nonsense finally dies out.  We always have in the past  . . . 

(“Two things can't be opposite and true at the same time.”  Naw.  Magnetism never works that way . . . )


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 17, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Bandersnatch, being long suffering, states: “Sigh. Duh! Of course Lazarus, and all the others who were resurrected, eventually died. Nowhere in the NT is it implied or stated that they were raised to never die again.”   Um?  So, when CH says, “The Risen LORD was in a Spiritual resurrected Body,” then what you are saying is that it is obvious, even to an idiot such as I, that this Lord was resurrected as a bodily entity, then died a second time?  Which Feast Day celebrates the Second Death?  I must have missed that chapter about the Second Dying of Christ’s bodily incarnation  . . .
> 
> And Bandersnatch again, well ahead of the curve, states, “Hit the books. Primordial soup....dead. Red Queen....dead. Much to learn young Jedi.”    Of course, such ‘concepts’ are old, dated, and outmoded compared to an ancient text written by multiple unknown authors.  Clearly all the answers are in there.  You say so, thus it must be so.
> 
> ...




so what happened, dio?  what happened in your life that made you blame God?  did your dog die?  girl dump ya?  

your posts have all the makings of someone who maybe believed in God at one time but was disappointed by an event in his life that made him lose hope?

Matthew 13:18-21 
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

you have too much knowledge of God to be a true unbeliever. you feel betrayed for some reason by the Holy God.

when a child gets spanked by his father for doing something evil, is it the child's fault or the fathers?  in your mind it is the fathers fault. so if you stop believing in that father, he will go away...  impossible. once a father always a father.  dont blame the Father for doing what He had to do.  every good father will punish disobedience.

is it too much to ask, for the father to ask his child to love him?  the father thinks not.  the Father created the child and He determines what love is between the two.  the child cannot tell the father what to do or how to love.  regardless of what the child thinks... the father will still be his father. even when rejected by the child for the childs disobedience.

does the earth give you pleasure? what about life?  humanism is a great evil upon the earth that gives most pleasure, yet you cannot see the evil that gives you joy.  its a temporary joy that fades and gives way to death and eternal misery.

the humanist thinks his problem is God while on earth and humans are his family.  isnt it funny that the humanist's biggest problem is himself.  the problem is not in front of him... it is him.  yet although the human is the enemy to the human... we have but one place to turn.  away from evil men and to the living God who gave life... and who is the friend of sinners while time allows.  once the opportunity fades... the wrath of God is a terrible thing...

which takes us to rejection.  denying the truth of God because you feel rejected yourself.  does two wrongs make a right?  what about one wrong and one right? does that make a right?  when man rejects his Creator does that make a right?  that is not a right.  when man takes God off the throne and puts men on the throne, does that make a right?  
in your eyes yes.  but are your eyes perfect? do they see?  God said the unbeliever will have eyes but they will not see...
He gives eyes to see to those who seek Him and His truth.  is that fair? is that just? does the man rejecting the Creator have a case against the father? who creates fair?  all creations are of the Almighty!

our beliefs, when they do not line up with God are at the least in total error.  God creates and God decides how things will be, not sniveling little men who cannot even go one minute without a vile look, word of deed, or without murdering by the tongue...  what a stench in the nostrils of a perfect holy God to reject Him because of our wickedness, ignorance and pride. to reject Him because of our failures is an abomination...

He created you with the hopes of you loving Him. since you rejected him over a lost girl or some other travesty...  you now have a deathwish. those who hate God, love death.  did God give up? no, He sent His Son to earth to die for sinners just like me. just like you. His Son will save all that believe and He even offers to send His Holy Spirit to those believers to keep them pure in their remaining years... but what do men do? they reject the most glorious offer ever... why? so they can hold unto their pride and sins...  repent dio, and believe and know in your heart, that eternal life can be shared in the presence of an almighty God in paradise forever...  no more tears. no more dead dogs. no more jilts. just happiness the way the Creator intended from the beginning. nothing could ever be better than spending eternity in heaven with a huge family and with an all powerful Father that promises to wipe away your tears... the opportunity has a window. time is short and the deadline looms. become spiritually wise by rejecting the worldly wisdom, humanism and science.  time is short. humanism, science and worldliness all lead to death. God would love to have another playing for His team. the eternal life team...


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## Thanatos (Feb 17, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Then Thanatos, also long suffering, states, “You have to admit the chances of humans existing for as long as we have on this rock are pretty incredible. If you are going to say it was bound to happen some time, some where, then don't bother. We have hashed that out too.”   But, actually, the whole ‘we’ve been through that’ sort of dismissal is designed to create the illusion that the matter is long settled, and you do not wish to be bothered with things that have already passed into the realm of established fact.  And, again, clearly your doctrines, and yours alone, are considered to be factual and beyond any questioning.  But Christian doctrine hardly settles scientific inquiries.
> 
> )



Math and Science have been evolving for thousands of years. In my opinion, it is ignorant for human beings to outright dismiss God. If you cant choose which God to worship that's fine. But, the same logic and reason you  tell me I lack is the same logic and reason I believe you lack for dismissing all of the evidence in front of you. I believe it goes back to that cliche of, "Is your glass half full, or half empty?" 

I love gaining knowledge. The more knowledge I gain the more magnificent God becomes to me.


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## Madsnooker (Feb 17, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> Math and Science have been evolving for thousands of years. In my opinion, it is ignorant for human beings to outright dismiss God. If you cant choose which God to worship that's fine. But, the same logic and reason you  tell me I lack is the same logic and reason I believe you lack for dismissing all of the evidence in front of you. I believe it goes back to that cliche of, "Is your glass half full, or half empty?"
> 
> I love gaining knowledge. The more knowledge I gain the more magnificent God becomes to me.



Great Post!!!


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## Madsnooker (Feb 17, 2010)

earl said:


> If you care to do the research you will fund written histories of all these things. None of them are for the children.



Although I don't post here much, I do come in from time to time. When I read this I spit coke all over my laptop laughing. Earl, I have to say, for you to compare these fairytales as being comparable to Jesus Christ and the undebatable evidence written in detail that have been unchanged from then until now is the most rediculous analogy I think I have ever read!!!!

Please tell me I misunderstood your reasoning for bringing up the Toothfairy and such fairytales as being no different in believing in Jesus Christ.


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## ugafish (Feb 17, 2010)

John 20:24-29.  Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.  So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"  But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."  A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them.  Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"  Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands.  Reach out your hand and put it into my side.  Stop doubting and believe."

Doesn't sound like a ghost.  

We all criticize and put down what we can't understand.  I wasn't a believer and used to get so angry at the hypocritical Christians.  It is not our job to make a rational explanation to you.  We are to spread the Good News!  We as Christians believe that, Jesus was God's son, Died and rose from the grave.  He now sits at the right hand of God.  

It all sounds crazy to unbelievers but the final sacrifice (Jesus's death) was a final solution to wash our sins away.  God had given the Isrealites the Law.  This included animal sacrifices to wash our sins away, but because of our sinful nature we could not keep the Law.  Jesus was God's solution (His Grace).  If you don't believe we are sinners, just look at the selfish nature of our young kids.  "Mine!", "I want", or "No!"  are common words that we all have heard.  This is not a learned trait.  Selfish, greedy, and defiant, just like us.  Most teenage boys don't like Dad telling them what to do, just like we don't like hearing that a God has a way for us to live.  We want to live life our way.  

All I ask is that you read the bible for yourself, if you do not feel the presence of God with you, then so be it.  At least you will get a history lesson of the nation of Israel and their beliefs.

However, I pray that God will pull the veil from your eyes and reveal to you his Truth, Wisdom, and Love.


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## Thanatos (Feb 17, 2010)

ugafish said:


> John 20:24-29.  Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came.  So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"  But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."  A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them.  Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!"  Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands.  Peach out your hand and put it into my side.  Stop doubting and believe."
> 
> Doesn't sound like a ghost.
> 
> ...



Amen


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## Diogenes (Feb 17, 2010)

BH – Who knew that you were a psychoanalyst, and could discern my deepest thoughts and motives with such alacrity?  

It is true, I Confess!  My dog spanked me, my father dumped me, and my girl went and run off with that darned dog.  It was dark days, back then, I tell ya.  All I could do was drink Bud, listen to Country Music, and rock back and forth on the steps of my double-wide with a loaded shotgun in my lap, all the time wailing, “Why me, oh God?  Why me?”

But then that darned Gideon fella run off with my only copy of the Good Book, and then the last straw was when the Velveeta and Tater Tots and Slim Jims ran out and I saw the evil, red eyes of that darned raccoon right there in the darkness of my soul, just out of range, mocking me . . . (Now THAT is symbolic, and metaphorical, right there . . . )  

I was forced to take what little solace I could find in the arms of Satan.

Fella strikes a hard bargain, that Satan.  But today I’m a Rocket Surgeon at Georgia Tech and a part-time Rock and Roll Idol, with a bevy of beautiful women, fancy cars and yachts, and riches beyond imagination.  God wrote me a letter about this problem, and I think He was telling me to go back to being poor and dumb, like His Son, but I couldn’t really read it too good, ‘cause it was in Greek, and they don’t teach that at Georgia Tech . . . 

I kind of thought that sort of thing was a betrayal too. It’s like you have seen into my very soul!  But, you see, I can actually see the evil that gives me joy, and even though I know that you are right – that temporary joy is evil and leads to eternal perdition, I’ll tell you what – that Satan never even asked me to drink light beer, nor did he ask me even once to consider that I might be the problem, nor suggest that I might not die at all if I forgot to have any fun.

Good looking fella too, and a snappy dresser.  Doesn’t go around half-naked with a only a towel around his waist and a crown of thorns bleeding all over the place, telling folks that suffering is actually joy.  Plus he isn’t like some kind of a wuss going around turning water into wine – he turns it into bourbon.  And (Get This!)  I also get Eternal Life out of the bargain!  With the fun folks, instead of the mooks who actually want to suffer in this life for the sins they don’t actually commit.  Heck, I don’t even want to spend a few hours with that sort of primitive Essene, let alone Eternity . . .


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 17, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> BH – Who knew that you were a psychoanalyst, and could discern my deepest thoughts and motives with such alacrity?
> 
> It is true, I Confess!  My dog spanked me, my father dumped me, and my girl went and run off with that darned dog.  It was dark days, back then, I tell ya.  All I could do was drink Bud, listen to Country Music, and rock back and forth on the steps of my double-wide with a loaded shotgun in my lap, all the time wailing, “Why me, oh God?  Why me?”
> 
> ...





you can dish out the psychoanalyticalphilosophicalbabble... but you cant take it.  if you're gonna go to a spiritual forum and blaspheme God and call Christians names... at least be prepared to take a little heat yourself now (and a lot later)...  

not all sheep are wusses... and not all will just roll over and die so a blasphemer can mock their God. 

eternity is forever. you better be right...  no second chances. but since they dont teach that at Tech... it must not be real, huh?


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## Diogenes (Feb 18, 2010)

Kidding, BH.  Never even visited Tech.  Untwist yerself.  Point is, if you consider doubting your own beliefs to be ‘blasphemy,’ then what do you consider your own mockery of the beliefs (or lack of beliefs) of others to be?

Fair and righteous?  Quid pro quo, pal.

Eternity isn’t forever.  Eternity is what happens after your woman says, “We need to talk . . .”

Outside of that, eternity is an abstract concept devised by men, and one that has no useful definition. If you are so afraid of that unknown and unmeasurable abstract idea that you are willing to sacrifice your life to a ‘what if,’ then go for it.  That is your own look-out, and has nothing to do with anyone else.  Your fears are your own.  Not mine.

I mean, I hope the hair shirt you must certainly wear is properly tailored, honestly, but trying to threaten others with ‘eternal doom’ if they happen to disagree gets a bit tiresome.  Believe anything you wish to believe, friend, and live your own life accordingly.

But please refrain from trying to discern my thoughts and motives by saying purely ignorant and stupid things like,  “ . . . since you rejected him over a lost girl or some other travesty... you now have a deathwish.”   I mean?  Be serious.  That sort of thing counts as an intelligent analysis and a form of argument where you live?  

Oddly enough, I suspect that your intentions are just as you say – to convert this poor ‘sinner’ to the One True Path that you see before you -- and that you hold no actual malice nor bad designs.  But friend?  Attempting to convert everyone to only one’s own point of view is the actual definition of all of the evils that have ever visited humanity, and you might make one small step towards the repudiation of real evil forces by not joining that bandwagon.  

I simply point out, time and again, that there are serious and well considered doubts, as well as serious and well thought alternative points of view.  The majority of the human beings on the planet disagree with you.  That is true.  So if you wish some respect for your own viewpoint, then argue it factually and well, from an informed position, and grant others the same respect that you seem to demand as though it were a birthright.  

You are in no position to lecture anyone at all on what God thinks, unless you have appointed yourself as his spokesman.


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## Thanatos (Feb 22, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Kidding, BH.  Never even visited Tech.  Untwist yerself.  Point is, if you consider doubting your own beliefs to be ‘blasphemy,’ then what do you consider your own mockery of the beliefs (or lack of beliefs) of others to be?
> 
> Fair and righteous?  Quid pro quo, pal.
> 
> ...



 Muhahaha


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 22, 2010)

Diogenes said:


> Kidding, BH.  Never even visited Tech.  Untwist yerself.  Point is, if you consider doubting your own beliefs to be ‘blasphemy,’ then what do you consider your own mockery of the beliefs (or lack of beliefs) of others to be?
> 
> i dont doubt my beliefs, dio. i doubt your beliefs.
> 
> ...



i have not appointed myself as anyone.  i did not ask to be born. God birthed. i did not ask if i could share the Gospel.  God birthed.  i did not ask God if i could save the fools...  God told me to save the fools. you fail to realize that the wisdom of the world is foolishness.  God created the world. He knows it all.... we can teach God nothing. you and your worldly wisdom are but actual foolishness, another fulfilled prophecy of God... 

1 Corinthians 1:18
[ Christ the Wisdom and Power of God ] For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21
For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 1:23
but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

1 Corinthians 1:25
For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 3:19
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;

Psalm 53:1
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.


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## christianhunter (Feb 25, 2010)

The zeal of the unbelievers,especially the atheists is overwhelming.What lengths they go to,to disprove GOD.They distort truth,they speculate beyond reason.They believe a lie,but they go to great lengths to spread this,and gain thier "freedom".Little do they know that GOD gave them this freedom,that will lead them into eternal torment.


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> The zeal of the unbelievers,especially the atheists is overwhelming.What lengths they go to,to disprove GOD.They distort truth,they speculate beyond reason.They believe a lie,but they go to great lengths to spread this,and gain thier "freedom".Little do they know that GOD gave them this freedom,that will lead them into eternal torment.



Wrong.
They do not have to "disprove" anything, as they are not the ones making any claims of existance.
They simply seek proofs outside of a faith based belief.
It's just that simple.


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## gtparts (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Wrong.
> They do not have to "disprove" anything, as they are not the ones making any claims of existance.
> They simply seek proofs outside of a faith based belief.
> It's just that simple.



THERE ARE NO PROOFS AVAILABLE *WITHOUT FAITH*!

 Confirmation can only be received in the spiritual realm. 

Why waste your time on seeking proof that can only come by the exercise of faith? Are atheists all so bull-headed that they can't grasp the simple truth that, without faith, they will never have proof this side of the grave. Christians stand on and live in the certain knowledge of Christ by faith.

People, who keep coming back over and over and over and over again with the silly idea that the physical can comprehend the spiritual, must be dumber than a sack of hammers.


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

gtparts said:


> THERE ARE NO PROOFS AVAILABLE *WITHOUT FAITH*!
> 
> Confirmation can only be received in the spiritual realm.
> 
> ...



I'll sidestep the insult, and will continue on topic.

See, some just will not accept faith as their answer to their questions.
It's that simple.
Where one finds it easy to use their faith to accept unknowns, to accept supernatural explanations and to build a contentment in their knowledge there are many who need more in order to establish belief and trust in the words of others.

It makes them no more "stupid" than those who place their trust in faith.  Each has the freedom to analyze and research and then to make decisions based on it.


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## Roberson (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> I'll sidestep the insult, and will continue on topic.
> 
> See, some just will not accept faith as their answer to their questions.
> It's that simple.
> ...



Sorry to break the news to ya, WTM, but you DO HAVE FAITH, just not in Christ, but in whatever you believe. Everyone has faith in something. And no, it is never "easy" to use faith to accept the unknown, Do you honestly think Christians never question God? God even Tells us to question everything, to see if it is found lacking, or if it is the real deal. 
 It seems to me all unbelievers base thier opinions on God by what they have experienced in thier lives, by criticizing Christians who mess up, or  who may be lacking knowledge or whatever, instead of actually picking up the Bible and studying the Words of Jesus.  I personally don't see how you can study the Bible and NOT believe.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 25, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> Sorry to break the news to ya, WTM, but you DO HAVE FAITH, just not in Christ, but in whatever you believe. Everyone has faith in something. And no, it is never "easy" to use faith to accept the unknown, Do you honestly think Christians never question God? God even Tells us to question everything, to see if it is found lacking, or if it is the real deal.
> It seems to me all unbelievers base thier opinions on God by what they have experienced in thier lives, by criticizing Christians who mess up, or  who may be lacking knowledge or whatever, instead of actually picking up the Bible and studying the Words of Jesus.  I personally don't see how you can study the Bible and NOT believe.


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## Roberson (Feb 25, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


>


 thank you, sir.


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> It seems to me all unbelievers base thier opinions on God by what they have experienced in thier lives, by criticizing Christians who mess up, or  who may be lacking knowledge or whatever, instead of actually picking up the Bible and studying the Words of Jesus.



Don't make that mistake in assumption.
Atheists are most often the some of the most studied of religious belief systems, holy writings and world history.

Faith?  It can't even be defined in a manner that is acceptable and understood by all.


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## Thanatos (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Don't make that mistake in assumption.
> Atheists are most often the some of the most studied of religious belief systems, holy writings and world history.
> 
> Faith?  It can't even be defined in a manner that is acceptable and understood by all.



Do you believe that your body  breathes in Oxygen and exhales carbon dioxide? If so, why do you believe it...and remember one of your answers can not be that you read it in a science "book".


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

I breathe in whatever is found in the chemical makeup of the atmosphere I find myself in, with Nitrogen being the largest percentage of gases found.  
Exhaling, I release much of the same, including wastes, H2O and even EtOH if I am metabolizing alcohol.
All has been proven through the scientific method of air sampling, and medical testing methods.
I've witnessed the testing procedures in the labratory setting.

I don't need faith to know what the human body does with air exchange.  It is a clear case of trust in proven scientific methods.
Some might believe that through faith if they don't have an understanding of the physical science involved.

I do not rule out what I can not prove to be real, therefore I am not an Atheist.


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## Roberson (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Don't make that mistake in assumption.
> Atheists are most often the some of the most studied of religious belief systems, holy writings and world history.
> 
> Faith?  It can't even be defined in a manner that is acceptable and understood by all.



Actually, most of the athiests I have ever talked to were some of the least educated in what they were trying to disprove.  Since atheists believe in no God, why would they be some of the most studied in things religous? I don't believe in ufo's, but i'm not gonna spend hours of research trying to disprove them. BUT..........alot of unbelievers try vehemently to disprove God. If you do not believe, why keep arguing? Unless deep down you really want to believe. And faith can be quite simply described as believing something to be true whether or not you have seen it.


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

Circular reasoning.
Those who make claims must produce the evidence.
Those who do not believe are most often the ones that dig the deepest looking for evidence.  Any evidence.

Unbelievers don't try to "disprove" what to them has never been "proven."
Until they find enough evidence to change their stance, they openly question those who are in the camp of the believer.

It's simple to understand as there are believers, unbelievers and the uninterested.


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## gtparts (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Don't make that mistake in assumption.
> Atheists are most often the some of the most studied of religious belief systems, holy writings and world history.
> 
> Faith?  It can't even be defined in a manner that is acceptable and understood by all.



The point is that knowing about these things may serve one well in the physical world, but an intellectual recognition and appreciation of the information as a unified system of study is worthless in dealing with personal spiritual matters.

There are people who have devoted untold years to acquire and systematize everything that is to be known about Abraham Lincoln down to how many nose hairs were in the handkerchief he had on his person the evening he was assassinated.  But, if the critical issue is whether any one of them has a personal relationship with Abe, they all fail miserably on that count. So it is with these atheist "experts" you reference.

The simple fact that there may be no single, simple acceptable definition of "faith" among the populous of the world most probably points to a problem inherent with people, not with faith.

As for the sidestepping issue, it would only apply to you if you place yourself in that particular group. 

Right or wrong, A. Einstein is credited with saying, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". I will not quibble over whether it is mere insanity or dumber than a sack of hammers, but the question stands, "Why waste your time on seeking proof that can only come by the exercise of faith?".


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## Roberson (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Circular reasoning.
> Those who make claims must produce the evidence.
> Those who do not believe are most often the ones that dig the deepest looking for evidence.  Any evidence.
> 
> ...


that's fair enough, WTM, But I believe because I DID dig deep for evidence. Not fairy tale stuff, mind you, but real, historical, authenticated evidence. Jesus Christ DID exist, He DID perform miracles in front of many witnessess, He WAS crucified in front of many witnessess, He did defeat death and was seen after His ressurrection by many witnesses, He DID change my life. Keep in mind, WTM, that even those most opposed to Jesus NEVER denied His miracles, in fact, this is why they wanted Him dead. And that is why this small group of fishermen, tax collectors, crooks, etc., changed the face of history, because they SEEN something in this man that would not be quieted even in the face of death and torture by those in power.


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## Roberson (Feb 25, 2010)

gtparts said:


> The point is that knowing about these things may serve one well in the physical world, but an intellectual recognition and appreciation of the information as a unified system of study is worthless in dealing with personal spiritual matters.
> 
> There are people who have devoted untold years to acquire and systematize everything that is to be known about Abraham Lincoln down to how many nose hairs were in the handkerchief he had on his person the evening he was assassinated.  But, if the critical issue is whether any one of them has a personal relationship with Abe, they all fail miserably on that count. So it is with these atheist "experts" you reference.
> 
> ...



That's some good stuff, dude.


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## Thanatos (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> scientific method of air sampling, and medical testing methods.



Do you not need faith in these processes  to believe what you see in the observations?


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> Do you not need faith in these processes  to believe what you see in the observations?



No more so than I have to have "faith" in my office chair.
It has prevented me from hitting the floor in numerous daily tests.


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## Thanatos (Feb 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> No more so than I have to have "faith" in my office chair.
> It has prevented me from hitting the floor in numerous daily tests.



But, you can physically "feel" the office chair material. Can you physically feel your observations?


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 25, 2010)

gtparts said:


> The point is that knowing about these things may serve one well in the physical world, but an intellectual recognition and appreciation of the information as a unified system of study is worthless in dealing with personal spiritual matters.
> 
> Right or wrong, A. Einstein is credited with saying, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results". I will not quibble over whether it is mere insanity or dumber than a sack of hammers, but the question stands, "Why waste your time on seeking proof that can only come by the exercise of faith?".




seriously, gt. can you not find an avatar that doesn't make a folk wanna puke? why not go back to the cartoon fonzy jesus?


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## WTM45 (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> But, you can physically "feel" the office chair material. Can you physically feel your observations?



Tactility is not a prerequisite for understanding scientific experimentation results.
We digress......


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## christianhunter (Feb 25, 2010)

The Christians progress.We believe the historical evidence.We live with the Spiritual evidence.JESUS CHRIST Is LORD.Every knee will bow before HIM,and tongue confess HIM.Even yours WTM!


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## Thanatos (Feb 26, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Tactility is not a prerequisite for understanding scientific experimentation results.



HAHA! WTM come on man! Do you realize what you just typed?


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## gtparts (Feb 26, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> seriously, gt. can you not find an avatar that doesn't make a folk wanna puke? why not go back to the cartoon fonzy jesus?



I'll try again 'cause I love you, man!



Think I found an old shot of me smiling. You like?


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## Juan De (Feb 26, 2010)

i once spoke with a man that had been in one of the major wars i think it was vietnam, and he told me this piece of information, "There are no athiests in fox holes".


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## ambush80 (Feb 26, 2010)

Juan De said:


> i once spoke with a man that had been in one of the major wars i think it was vietnam, and he told me this piece of information, "There are no athiests in fox holes".



http://www.maaf.info/expaif.html


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> I'll try again 'cause I love you, man
> 
> Think I found an old shot of me smiling. You like?



i gotta be honest... this one is not much better. but i think i can refrain from illness with this one. not as goos as my marty feldman tho...


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## WTM45 (Feb 26, 2010)

Thanatos said:


> HAHA! WTM come on man! Do you realize what you just typed?



I do.
Understanding the results of a physical experimentation is not limited to any one singular human perception.
Such as, I don't actually have to TOUCH an acid to know it is caustic and will FEEL very warm on skin.
I can use SIGHT on litmus, as it is much less painful and offensive to the cells of my body.

Let's get back to the spiritual realm.
What you perceive as a proof may very well be enough for you to make a determination of fact.
Not everyone can come to that same conclusion in the same manner.


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## Phillip Thurmond (Feb 26, 2010)

I have not read all these post and really don't care to.  This is what I know.  
My childhood friend who I have not seen in 30 + years died the other day at 48 years old.   
1.  According to an athiest thats it for him, its over.  
2. According to me he is in heaven right now with our Savior!  

Now I can't prove either way but I do know this!  
If i'm right I will live forever with my lord and Savior!  
If the Athiest is right I become worm dirt!  
If i'm wrong, I become worm dirt!  
If the Athiest is wrong he will spend forever and ever in Hel_
I can't imagine taking that chance!
Just because you don't believe it will happen does not mean it won't!


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## pnome (Feb 26, 2010)

Phillip Thurmond said:


> I have not read all these post and really don't care to.  This is what I know.
> My childhood friend who I have not seen in 30 + years died the other day at 48 years old.
> 1.  According to an athiest thats it for him, its over.
> 2. According to me he is in heaven right now with our Savior!
> ...



What if the Muslims are right?

When you consider all of the other possible Gods there are to worship, your odds start to look a little bit longer don't they?






Not such a good wager.  Here's my wager:

I believe in a god that doesn't mind that I don't believe in him.


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## Phillip Thurmond (Feb 26, 2010)

Well Mohammad was a man and he died!  Jesus was the Son of God and he was killed but 3 days later he arose again.  I don't think Mohammad pulled that one off.  But if they are then I guess I'm in a world of hurt but I don't think I am!  IN fact I know i'm not!  I think an Athiest has a better argument than Muslims have!  And while were at it I also feel the same way for all the other so called religions out there.  They are worshiping a Dead God!  Mine arose again and lives today!  
As for your last comment there is no such God!   Satin believes in God but he won't be in heaven!


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## pnome (Feb 26, 2010)

Phillip Thurmond said:


> As for your last comment there is no such God!




Oh yeah?  You can't prove that he doesn't!


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## Phillip Thurmond (Feb 26, 2010)

Prove...NO!  But neither can you prove that he does not care!  Like I said I'm not willing to take that chance.  I guess you are!  Good luck with that!  I like my odds a whole lot better than yours!  I don't say this to be mean or cocky or anything like that because I have and will continue to pray for you!  I just think that your throwing away the greatest gift of all time and really just don't care!  Like I said if I'm wrong I've lost nothing!  If your wrong.....
As I read this post again I really don't like the way it comes accross however it is the truth!  I'm not one of these I think i'm better than you kind of guys!  In fact I don't ever want to appear that way and this post makes me look that way and I don't want it to!  All I want is the opportunity to share what Jesus has done in my life and what a better person I am today because of him.  I want to share that through his blood my sins are forgiven and I will spend eternity in heaven with my savior!  I want to share that you can have that same thing.  I can't understand why anyone would not want that.  However I also realize that many don't.


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## pnome (Feb 26, 2010)

Phillip Thurmond said:


> I can't understand why anyone would not want that.



Because it is a false comfort.

Pascal's wager has many flaws.  I've pointed out one of them already, but another one might be:  Such a wager does not constitute real faith, how do you know God won't punish you for your lack of true faith?

Tell me, why do you believe the Bible?  Think hard about the answer to that question and try to be honest with yourself.


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## WTM45 (Feb 26, 2010)

pnome said:


> Because it is a false comfort.
> 
> Pascal's wager has many flaws.  I've pointed out one of them already, but another one might be:  Such a wager does not constitute real faith, how do you know God won't punish you for your lack of true faith?
> 
> Tell me, why do you believe the Bible?  Think hard about the answer to that question and try to be honest with yourself.



Saving one's own bacon seems to be a great reason to "believe" in the supernatural, huh?

If a deity really wanted true belief and faith, that deity would keep the end result penalty for disbelief a card up his sleeve.  A suprise to the unbeliever at "judgement" time.
Then, you would see the real believers and why they believed.  Not for personal gain, but for a simple and honest desire to please the deity.

So, the threat of "eternal" horror does little but to intimidate the weak and results in a compliance by force end result.

I support the right of each individual to believe as they wish, and to practice their beliefs.  I also support the right to discuss differing opinions and interpretations as well.  Some don't see that as the intent of this forum, but it is.


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Saving one's own bacon seems to be a great reason to "believe" in the supernatural, huh?
> 
> If a deity really wanted true belief and faith, that deity would keep the end result penalty for disbelief a card up his sleeve.  A suprise to the unbeliever at "judgement" time.
> Then, you would see the real believers and why they believed.  Not for personal gain, but for a simple and honest desire to please the deity.
> ...



pnome and WTM, come argue with me for a little while. i'm bored!


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## WTM45 (Feb 26, 2010)

Bro, I'm not arguing.  I'm simply looking at it all from a different perspective.


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

Boys, I think you have terribly misread most Christians. We do not believe because we think we might go to Helll, but because of the great mercy and wonder found in God. Is this a concept so hard to understand? Why be so cycnical? I know for a fact God has changed my life.


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## pnome (Feb 26, 2010)

Gatorcountry said:


> pnome and WTM, come argue with me for a little while. i'm bored!


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

pnome said:


>



 you got me.


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

Now, being of Celto-Viking descent, I do kinda like Odin.............(just kidding, Lord!)


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 26, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Saving one's own bacon seems to be a great reason to "believe" in the supernatural, huh?
> 
> If a deity really wanted true belief and faith, that deity would keep the end result penalty for disbelief a card up his sleeve.  A suprise to the unbeliever at "judgement" time.
> Then, you would see the real believers and why they believed.  Not for personal gain, but for a simple and honest desire to please the deity.
> ...



you fail to realize that even God has said that He has provided men with enough proof thru creation for them to believe on Him and they will be without excuse.

if you drive down the road and there is a speed limit sign every 1 mile and you drive 20 miles you will see 20 signs.  if you get a ticket for doing 50 when the signs told you to go 40... you cannot argue that with the law. you were warned.  the law gave you more than enough warnings. you chose to break the law by ignoring it. its the same with God...

Romans 1:19-25
 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

 20_*For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:*_

 21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

 22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

 23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

 24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

there is your humanism, right there. and God says it will not go unpunished. there is no excuse for not believing.

what unbelievers do is drive right down that road, with the speed limit signs right in front of them, one after another and they just ignore them over and over. driving 50 in a 40... its just a matter of time till the little biker cop is parked behind the tree and nails you for speeding. its  gonna happen. just a matter of time till we all die and go straight before an all Holy God and have to explain our unbeliefs..


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## WTM45 (Feb 26, 2010)

BeenHuntn said:


> you fail to realize that even God has said that He has provided men with enough proof thru creation for them to believe on Him and they will be without excuse.
> 
> if you drive down the road and there is a speed limit sign every 1 mile and you drive 20 miles you will see 20 signs.  if you get a ticket for doing 50 when the signs told you to go 40... you cannot argue that with the law. you were warned.  the law gave you more than enough warnings. you chose to break the law by ignoring it. its the same with God...
> 
> ...



Why choose the Bible over the Quaran?  Or the Vedas?
Convenience?  Familiarity?  Location of birth?  Early influence of family?


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Why choose the Bible over the Quaran?  Or the Vedas?
> Convenience?  Familiarity?  Location of birth?  Early influence of family?



This is where you boys don't get it. WE didn't choose God, He chose us.


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## BeenHuntn (Feb 26, 2010)

its the only one that explains creation, starts at the beginning, gives us the end, proves itself to be accurate, all of its prophecies are 100% accurate, teaches itself, proven Holy, gives precise history and explains men to perfection.


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## gtparts (Feb 26, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Why choose the Bible over the Quaran?  Or the Vedas?
> Convenience?  Familiarity?  Location of birth?  Early influence of family?



Muslim faith - Cobbled together between 500-600 A.D. by a angry vindictive warrior-tribal leader. Basic theology and dogma went through one MAJOR alteration to suit the human author when his personal philosophy and fortunes changed.  Mohamed's Allah is unknowable, impersonal, capricious, and unloving. So much for the Quran.

Hindu faith - polytheistic with three or more religious sects and sub-sects, with three competing holy writings. Literally thousands of gods that differ from one Hindu writing to another. The epitome of pagan Universalism with some vague notion of eternal reward after an untold number of mulligans. The overall structure is built on the caste system where people are valued based on their family tree rather than personal character and achievement, a cultural albatross (the caste system) that India outlawed decades ago, yet still persists. If it were not for Christianity being introduced, each funeral of a married male would include one cremation (the deceased) and one immolation (the living spouse, willing or not) to this day. Tell me you don't consider this a viable option for choosing a religion! A god with an elephant head on a human body? Give me a break.

Convenience?  Familiarity?  Location of birth?  Early influence of family?
No doubt had some influence as I was raised in a Christian environment, but to tell you the truth, I questioned Christianity in my youth and found absolutely nothing to compare with having a personal relationship with the living God. Yep, probably real close to bailing on all religion till I encountered Jesus and the truth of who He is and what He has done and continues to do for me. I pray that you will have your own encounter too, before you die.


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

gtparts said:


> Muslim faith - Cobbled together between 500-600 A.D. by a angry vindictive warrior-tribal leader. Basic theology and dogma went through one MAJOR alteration to suit the human author when his personal philosophy and fortunes changed.  Mohamed's Allah is unknowable, impersonal, capricious, and unloving. So much for the Quran.
> 
> Hindu faith - polytheistic with three or more religious sects and sub-sects, with three competing holy writings. Literally thousands of gods that differ from one Hindu writing to another. The epitome of pagan Universalism with some vague notion of eternal reward after an untold number of mulligans. The overall structure is built on the caste system where people are valued based on their family tree rather than personal character and achievement, a cultural albatross (the caste system) that India outlawed decades ago, yet still persists. If it were not for Christianity being introduced, each funeral of a married male would include one cremation (the deceased) and one immolation (the living spouse, willing or not) to this day. Tell me you don't consider this a viable option for choosing a religion! A god with an elephant head on a human body? Give me a break.
> 
> ...



Dern. I wish i woulda said that.........


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## Inthegarge (Feb 26, 2010)

pnome said:


> Because it is a false comfort.
> 
> Pascal's wager has many flaws.  I've pointed out one of them already, but another one might be:  Such a wager does not constitute real faith, how do you know God won't punish you for your lack of true faith?
> 
> Tell me, why do you believe the Bible?  Think hard about the answer to that question and try to be honest with yourself.



It's simple   1) the Bible has been her longer than any other book. 2) It has withstood attempts to destroy it 3) every new find by Archeology confirms it 3) It is the only book that tells man why he is here, how he should live, AND where he will spend eternity.

Bottom line you either believe it or you don't. Not really much to discuss except how it has changed my life. Drug dealer/user, alcoholic, outlaw motorcycle club member, lazy bum, etc. etc. Now I am a Mental Health professional, have a great wife, 3 successful children, 4 of the greatest grandchild possible. And oh Yea I'm loving it.....RW


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## Roberson (Feb 26, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> It's simple   1) the Bible has been her longer than any other book. 2) It has withstood attempts to destroy it 3) every new find by Archeology confirms it 3) It is the only book that tells man why he is here, how he should live, AND where he will spend eternity.
> 
> Bottom line you either believe it or you don't. Not really much to discuss except how it has changed my life. Drug dealer/user, alcoholic, outlaw motorcycle club member, lazy bum, etc. etc. Now I am a Mental Health professional, have a great wife, 3 successful children, 4 of the greatest grandchild possible. And oh Yea I'm loving it.....RW


good for you,man! I don't think alot of folks realize 
how Jesus Christ can change your life. You can't argue with ones testimony.


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## pnome (Feb 26, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> It's simple   1) the Bible has been her longer than any other book.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Gilgamesh




> 2) It has withstood attempts to destroy it



So has Catcher in the Rye.



> 3) every new find by Archeology confirms it



How does this find confirm anything in the bible?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15131348/



> 3) It is the only book that tells man why he is here, how he should live, AND where he will spend eternity.



Do you honestly think that Christianity is the only religion with a creation myth?  With codes of conduct and an afterlife?




> Bottom line you either believe it or you don't. Not really much to discuss except how *it has changed my life*. Drug dealer/user, alcoholic, outlaw motorcycle club member, lazy bum, etc. etc. Now I am a Mental Health professional, have a great wife, 3 successful children, 4 of the greatest grandchild possible. And oh Yea I'm loving it.....RW



Do you think that maybe there is/was someone out there who had similar problems to yours, and who overcame them like you, but was inspired by a different religious text?  Does his personal story have anything to do with whether that religion is the _one true religion_ or not?


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