# all this talk about what is required for salvation...



## hawglips (Feb 5, 2013)

...got me to thinking.

So, I figured it might be interesting to formulate a list of the things Jesus said were required.

Here are some of them:


Believe in Him 
Repent (Luke 13:3)
Be baptized (Mark 16:16)
Do the will of God (Matt. 7:21)
Righteousness (Matt. 5:20)
Obey the commandments (Matt. 19: 16-21)
Minister to others (Matt. 25: 31-46)
Forsake the world, 
Put God first (Matt. 19:29)
Deny ourselves (Matt. 16: 24-26)
Be converted, 
Become as little children (Matt. 18: 1-6)
Love the Lord thy God,
Love our neighbor (Luke 10: 25-37)
Give to the poor,
Forsake all,
Follow Him (Mark 10: 17-30)
Forgive others (Matt. 6: 14-15)
Be perfect (Matt. 5: 45)
Endure to the end (Mark 13: 13)
Keep the spirit of the commandments (Matt. 5: 21-37)
Enter in through Christ (John 10: 9)


----------



## hobbs27 (Feb 5, 2013)

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be dam n ed.


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 5, 2013)

hawglips said:


> ...got me to thinking.
> 
> So, I figured it might be interesting to formulate a list of the things Jesus said were required.
> 
> ...



Yep works.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 5, 2013)

ALL OF THAT?????

Can't I just 'say something', or go to some particular place?
This is beginning to smell like a life changing 'commitment' to me.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2013)

Say it ain't so, Jesus. Say it ain't so!


----------



## THREEJAYS (Feb 9, 2013)

WOW what happened to 123 repeat after me?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2013)

THREEJAYS said:


> WOW what happened to 123 repeat after me?



James 2:17
New International Version (©1984)
In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

New Living Translation (©2007)
So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.

English Standard Version (©2001)
So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
In the same way faith, if it doesn't have works, is dead by itself.

International Standard Version (©2012)
In the same way, faith by itself, if it does not prove itself with actions, is dead.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2013)

James 2:22
New International Version (©1984)
You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

New Living Translation (©2007)
You see, his faith and his actions worked together. His actions made his faith complete.

English Standard Version (©2001)
You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
You see that faith was active together with his works, and by works, faith was perfected.

International Standard Version (©2012)
You see that his faith worked together with what he did, and by his actions his faith was made complete.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2013)

If grace is enough, what about faith? Isn't having faith a "works?" Isn't believing a "works?" It's something we must do. What could I possibly do? It is a gift from God? That I believe, but Grace, Faith Works, & Obedience are connected. If you say you have faith or you believe, then you have done a "work." You've did something in the equation. 
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Matthew 19:16-19.
He was simply stating that in order to enter heaven, you have to be a commandment keeper. And remember we keep the commandments because we are saved, not to be saved.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2013)

OBEDIENCE is "works"

 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:15.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

"For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:3.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:3,4.

"And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." 1 John 3:24.

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Revelation 14:12


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2013)

Romans 4:16 lets us know that in order to recieve the Grace of God, we must have faith. We must believe. Me, you, I, us, we, have to do something. True, it's a free gift from God. He isn't going to give it to someone who doesn't have faith. Faith is a requirement to receive grace.

Romans 4:16
New International Version (©1984)
Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham's offspring--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all.

New Living Translation (©2007)
So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham's. For Abraham is the father of all who believe.

English Standard Version (©2001)
That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspringâ€”not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
This is why the promise is by faith, so that it may be according to grace, to guarantee it to all the descendants--not only to those who are of the law but also to those who are of Abraham's faith. He is the father of us all

International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, the promise is based on faith, so that it may be a matter of grace and may be guaranteed for all of Abraham's descendantsâ€”not only for those who were given the Law, but also for those who share the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


----------



## Israel (Feb 11, 2013)

We may try to explain the outworking of all the things manifest in loving the Lord with our whole heart , soul, mind and strength.
But if I don't even know my own heart...where does that leave one as myself?
It would appear that unless someone saves me, I am not.
I see a man like me, but completely unlike me.
I hear a man whose words I sometimes repeat, but I don't know those words the way he does.
I talk about following, faithfulness, love, and life...but somehow they pale when I see what they mean to him.
Either he must save me...and will...or I am lost.
His faithfulness must always exceed my "belief" that I trust him.
And it has always proven true.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 11, 2013)

hawglips said:


> ...got me to thinking.
> 
> So, I figured it might be interesting to formulate a list of the things Jesus said were required.
> 
> ...



Yup....all those things...done by the thief on the cross.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

Hebrews 1:6  And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

We work on having faith our whole lives. It's a life long process. It's not something that stays fixed. We have to work at keeping the faith. Our faith can be shipwrecked , departed from , disowned, wandered from , and missed .

Luke 7:50 Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Jesus says, “Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life. "
(If Sola Fide is true, why is He telling them to labor for anything in regard to eternal life? )


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

To believe on Jesus is the opposite of disobeying Jesus.

John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Luke 8:13 They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
(Jesus taught a true believer could turn into an unbeliever.)


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

*Is God Your Father?  He is if you Love His Son.*

Now, do you love God's Son?

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, _*you would love Me*_........ 43 Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father.

John 14:15 “If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

John 14:21  He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 14: 23 Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

Col 3:9  Do not lie to one another, since you laid aside the old self with its evil practices, 10 and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him—

*Salvation is about more than a verse of scripture.  Salvation is about life, and fatherhood, and about being children.  It's about an adoption.  When God comes for you.  And what happens as a result of His coming.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> (Jesus taught a true believer could turn into an unbeliever.)



"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)
> )



God's grace, our faith is the way some Christians believe.
The gift is grace, not faith. Believing comes from us.

Barne's notes on the Bible:
  And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one;
Whether this passage proves it or not, it is certainly true that faith is the gift of God. It exists in the mind only when the Holy Spirit produces it there, and is, in common with every other Christian excellence, to be traced to his agency on the heart. This opinion, however, does not militate at all with the doctrine that man himself "believes." It is not God that "believes" for him, for that is impossible. It is his own mind that actually believes, or that exercises faith.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> God's grace, our faith is the way some Christians believe.
> The gift is grace, not faith. Believing comes from us.
> 
> Barne's notes on the Bible:
> And that not of yourselves - That is, salvation does not proceed from yourselves. The word rendered "that" - τοῦτο touto - is in the neuter gender, and the word "faith" - πίστις pistis - is in the feminine. The word "that," therefore, does not refer particularly to faith, as being the gift of God, but to "the salvation by grace" of which he had been speaking. This is the interpretation of the passage which is the most obvious, and which is now generally conceded to be the true one;



Hmmm...does that change the meaning of the verse?

Whether it is grace or faith that is the gift, the end result...eternal life...is a gift from God (see Rom 6:23).  We do not earn either one....Salvation is truly a gift from God....and a free one at that.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

Clarke's commentary on the Bible:
But it may be asked: Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man's own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him:


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

I have faith. I thought it was from my own mind. I'll have to see if I can find verses about my faith to see if it is mine or not.
James 1:3 because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance.

The Bible tells me I have to "believe". I think that means something I must do. Believing is not a "works of the law."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

Where does faith originate? God or us? 
By Dr. Ken Matto 

(Mat 17:20 KJV) And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you. 

(Rom 1:8 KJV) First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 

So now that we have seen that the Bible is clear that faith is now a fruit of the Spirit and given to those who become saved. This means that there is an order: First, salvation, then faith, then belief which is built upon that faith, then as we continue to believe and act we become faithful. So a person who is unsaved does not have the Holy Spirit living in them, which means they cannot have any faith because they are spiritually dead and are of the world. 
Spiritually dead people cannot generate anything spiritually

http://www.scionofzion.com/faith.htm


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." (Ephesians 2:8-10)
> 
> "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)
> 
> "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy." (Romans 9:16)



That's great technic, pulling single verses from various 
Gospel locations, and assembling them as though they originated together.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...does that change the meaning of the verse?
> 
> Whether it is grace or faith that is the gift, the end result...eternal life...is a gift from God (see Rom 6:23).  We do not earn either one....Salvation is truly a gift from God....and a free one at that.



Then everyone has received it??????
.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I have faith. I thought it was from my own mind. I'll have to see if I can find verses about my faith to see if it is mine or not.



You must distinguish between God-given (supernatural faith) and natural faith.

"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me." (Philippians 1:29) 

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2)


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Then everyone has received it??????
> .



Really?  You got that from my response?

But...to answer it anyways...no.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> That's great technic, pulling single verses from various
> Gospel locations, and assembling them as though they originated together.



That is just silly.


----------



## hobbs27 (Feb 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> *Salvation is about more than a verse of scripture.  Salvation is about life, and fatherhood, and about being children.  It's about an adoption.  When God comes for you.  And what happens as a result of His coming.



Very Nice.
who is forgiven much loves much...


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> That is just silly.



Pardon me but I thought that's what you did.  
.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...does that change the meaning of the verse?
> 
> Whether it is grace or faith that is the gift, the end result...eternal life...is a gift from God (see Rom 6:23).  We do not earn either one....Salvation is truly a gift from God....and a free one at that.





Ronnie T said:


> Then everyone has received it??????
> .





rjcruiser said:


> Really?  You got that from my response?
> 
> But...to answer it anyways...no.



That's what it appeared to say.
. But I accept you "no".  Thanks.
Free doesn't actually mean 'free' in the sense that some people consider it.
.


----------



## formula1 (Feb 11, 2013)

*Re:*

The death, burial and resurrection of Christ paid the price for our salvation, that in Christ, all can be saved. Grace has been poured out on all without limit.

Your faith, small as a mustard seed that it is, is your simple willingness to let go of yourself and receive all the benefits already granted you in Christ. By grace you are saved through faith.

It is by the power of the Holy Spirit also granted in Christ that you have any ability to sustain your walk in Christ.  Apart from Christ, you can do nothing!

Seems simple to me! In Christ, your salvation is assured, always and forever. And you know it (at least you should)!

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 11, 2013)

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." (John 6:63-65)


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 11, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.


"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region. But the Jews stirred up the devout and honourable women, and the chief men of the city, and raised persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and expelled them out of their coasts. But they shook off the dust of their feet against them, and came unto Iconium." (Acts 13:48-51)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

Salvation is a gift from God. Faith is given to me from God. Jesus died on the cross for my sins. God saves whom he will. The Holy Spirit enters whom he will. 
That makes it seem or appear that I have absolutely nothing to do. I can only sit back and hope. Wow and at the same time Christians believe in "blessed assurance."
What about all the verses about "you must have faith?" If God was going to give it to me or not give it to me, again nothing I can do about it.Can I assume that my believing is a "gift from God" too?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> You must distinguish between God-given (supernatural faith) and natural faith.
> 
> "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." (Hebrews 12:2)



Are you saying some of my faith comes from God and some of my faith comes from "free-will?" 

I do believe my Jesus is the beginning & end of what my natural and God-given faith is based on.

When it comes down to it everything is a "gift from God." 
That doesn't relieve me of , keeping faith, believing, obedience to God, repenting, forgiving, and the list goes on. I'm not saying all is or isn't a requirement for salvation. What i'm saying is the verbs and adverbs are of me. God would not instruct me to have responsibility of actions without letting me make decisions and choices.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

Looking at some of the verses in the Bible that talk about our faith convinces me that it is up to me to have faith. Perhaps it is a gift from God but it is up to me to keep the faith. The wording about faith describes loyalty, trust, & commitment. Traits I must have personally. These verses say things like, "live by faith", "if you have faith", "your faith has made you well', "full of faith", "remain faithful", "stand firm in your faith", and "walk by faith".
Yes guidance from the Holy Spirit but doesn't it appear we must have FAITH & BELIEVE?


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 11, 2013)

Living faith.

1Thes 3:4 For indeed when we were with you, we kept telling you in advance that we were going to suffer affliction; and so it came to pass, as you know. 5 For this reason, when I could endure it no longer, I also sent to find out about your faith, for fear that the tempter might have tempted you, and our labor would be in vain.

6 But now that Timothy has come to us from you, and has brought us good news of your faith and love, and that you always think kindly of us, longing to see us just as we also long to see you, 7 for this reason, brethren, in all our distress and affliction we were comforted about you through your faith; 8 for now we really live, if you stand firm in the Lord. 9 For what thanks can we render to God for you in return for all the joy with which we rejoice before our God on your account, 10 as we night and day keep praying most earnestly that we may see your face, and may complete what is lacking in your faith?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

Some have made shipwreck of their faith.
 Moses was faithful in all God's house
 And when Jesus saw their faith
 I will show you my faith by my works
 The righteous shall live by faith
 without faith it is impossible to please God


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 11, 2013)

All this talk of faith. It won't do any good without love.
1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

I am nothing - nothing in myself, nothing in the sight of God, nothing in the Church, and good for nothing to mankind. 
If you don't have love, you are still lost. Is our ability to love God & others also a "gift"?


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about all the verses about "you must have faith?"


You do and a believer will. Faith is the evidence of and not the avenue of. Remember, "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."



Artfuldodger said:


> Can I assume that my believing is a "gift from God" too?


Again, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." It does not say, "as many as believed are ordained to eternal life".


----------



## Israel (Feb 12, 2013)

When I was younger and wanted to be an apostle, prophet, evangelist, pastor and teacher to the church, I must have thought I was very smart.
Now, I see my "office"/part of the body is called the position of non-necessity.
I am unnecessary.
And my ministry as that part has become the ministry of stating the painfully obvious, because it is most often met with "I (we) already know that!

So, were I to say "I am not God"...I suppose I will have sufficiently fulfilled my calling...

But saying that I will also ask this relative to these scriptures.

Rom 4:4  Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 
Rom 4:5  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth _the ungodly_, his faith is counted for righteousness. 

Are we allowed to believe the truth? Do any of us need permission?

Or, do I still have a remnant of stink that wants to say..."Gee, Lord, that's awfully nice of you to justify those people like that...that are obviously so "ungodly"?


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 12, 2013)

Why does this tread want to make me run to the hills and pile-up a few rocks and burn a lamb instead of coming down with a lively flock for market.

This over and over again path to the fundamentals...grace vs faith vs works... I continue to pile them up like rocks and soon I'm going to burn  something on top of it to make sure all bases are covered.

In the meantime I sure hope the pagans have a handle on justice--cause I don't have time for it in my quarry.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 12, 2013)

I consider believing Jesus died for my sins and faith that God will follow through processes that I must do. I don't consider them them to be the same works of the Old Testament Law.

I believe it goes down like this for salvation. Jesus died for my sins, by the grace of God am I saved. It is a gift from God. He calls for me to accept Jesus as my Savior. With the influence of the Holy spirit, I accept his gift or refuse it. If i accept it, I am given the gift of the Holy Spirit. I might even be given the gift of faith. Either way it's up to me to work on my faith, grow spiritually, and keep the faith. Believing Jesus died for my sins is my call. I must be loving, obedient, and faithfull till the end.


----------



## Israel (Feb 13, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Why does this tread want to make me run to the hills and pile-up a few rocks and burn a lamb instead of coming down with a lively flock for market.
> 
> This over and over again path to the fundamentals...grace vs faith vs works... I continue to pile them up like rocks and soon I'm going to burn  something on top of it to make sure all bases are covered.
> 
> In the meantime I sure hope the pagans have a handle on justice--cause I don't have time for it in my quarry.



Too busy "being saved" huh...brother?
(Said, as sometimes needs explanation in text, with tongue firmly in cheek)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 13, 2013)

Even if Jesus did away with works of the Law, did he do away with works of believing and obedience? Is any thing we do physically or mentally to attain or keep salvation considereded a "work"? After all it is something "we" do or did  verses what "God" does or did.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even if Jesus did away with works of the Law, did he do away with works of believing and obedience? Is any thing we do physically or mentally to attain or keep salvation considereded a "work"? After all it is something "we" do or did  verses what "God" does or did.


"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)

"They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3:12)

Perhaps a Believer depends on the merits of Christ, to be righteous before God?


----------



## gordon 2 (Feb 13, 2013)

Israel said:


> Too busy "being saved" huh...brother?
> (Said, as sometimes needs explanation in text, with tongue firmly in cheek)



Funny... sort of reminds me of a Jimmy Martin song, Honey you don't know my mind.

It would go something like this:


Honey you don't know my mind, been saved a thousand times; Born to lose, a drifter that's me; You can travel for so long till your loving heart goes wrong. Baby you don't know my mind today.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." (Isaiah 64:6)
> 
> "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." (Romans 3:12)
> 
> Perhaps a Believer depends on the merits of Christ, to be righteous before God?



 I know God could force me to love & obey him and make me believe Jesus died for my sins, I don't believe he does that. There are to many Bible verses that stress the importance of an individual believing, obeying, loving, forgiving, committing, helping, etc. I do believe God will help/assist those who help themselves.
Jesus said "because of their unbelief" as if 'they" had a choice in their unblief. He also said ""Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." That took more effort on the individuals who had never seen Jesus personally.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I know God could force me to love & obey him and make me believe Jesus died for my sins, I don't believe he does that.


This God? "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:"(Isaiah 14:24) 

God does not need to "force" what he directly controls.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 13, 2013)

John 6:29
New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
New Living Translation (©2007)
Jesus told them, "This is the only work God wants from you: Believe in the one he has sent."

English Standard Version (©2001)
Jesus answered them, â€œThis is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.â€�

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
Jesus replied, "This is the work of God--that you believe in the One He has sent."" 

International Standard Version (©2012)
Jesus answered them, "This is God's work: to believe in the one whom he has sent."

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

The deciding factor would be whether God controls ye to believe on Jesus or if you get to decide. So I  guess  it depends on how you interpret  this verse.
What is the "work of God" in that verse? Is it saying our believing is a "work of God?" I don't think so.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 14, 2013)

"So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth." (Romans 9:16-18)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 14, 2013)

I was made in the "image of God" so that I could show love & obedience to him. The “image of God” was not destroyed in man’s fall. Genesis 9:6 proves this by saying: "Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man.

John 5:39 
You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life. 41 I do not accept praise from men, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.


----------



## hawglips (Feb 15, 2013)

> Believe in Him
> Repent (Luke 13:3)
> Be baptized (Mark 16:16)
> Do the will of God (Matt. 7:21)
> ...





rjcruiser said:


> Yup....all those things...done by the thief on the cross.



Are you rolling your eyes to say that each of those things which he specifically said are required, actually are not required at all?  

As for saying, "Today thou shalt be with me in _Paradise_" - have you ever wondered what paradise actually was?  We know Jesus never used that term in all his sermons about what was required for salvation.  And since He was going to be there with the thief later that day, yet Jesus hadn't returned to his Father by the third day when Mary saw him outside the tomb - then wherever He was with the thief that day, was outside of the presence of God the Father.  So I don't think your use of the term to be equivalent to salvation or eternal life is correct.  Or we don't know enough about the thief to judge him.

We do know where Jesus went between the time of his death on the cross and the resurrection, by the way.


----------



## hawglips (Feb 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Perhaps a Believer depends on the merits of Christ, to be righteous before God?



The devils believe, to no avail.

Here's how it seems to me.  Believing is required, but it's just the beginning.  The devils are not saved by their belief.  And not every one that saith, Lord, Lord, enters into heaven.  But he that _doeth_....

Jesus is the gate we enter.  There is no other.  No matter what you do, you cannot be saved, outside of Christ.  But it's just the entrance.  There is also a path to traverse.  He showed us the way.  Strait (narrow) is the gate _AND_ narrow is the way that _leadeth_ to eternal life.  Both the gate must be entered and the way must be traversed....

I think we should beleive all that Jesus said is required, rather than trying to minimize it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 15, 2013)

I don't recall the thief having much time to do much of anything. He did endure to the end. If you are willing to wait until right before you die to believe, repent, be obedient, forgive others, love others and God, it might work for you too.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 15, 2013)

hawglips said:


> Jesus is the gate we enter.  There is no other.  No matter what you do, you cannot be saved, outside of Christ.  But it's just the entrance.  There is also a path to traverse.  He showed us the way.  Strait (narrow) is the gate _AND_ narrow is the way that _leadeth_ to eternal life.  Both the gate must be entered and the way must be traversed....
> 
> I think we should beleive all that Jesus said is required, rather than trying to minimize it.


I see contradiction here but it may just be in the way I read it. You say "No matter what you do, you cannot be saved, outside of Christ." But then you say "But it's just the entrance.  There is also a path to traverse.  He showed us the way."

If we are in Christ and Christ is in us, who is doing this traversing? Who is the author and finisher?


----------



## Israel (Feb 15, 2013)

hawglips said:


> The devils believe, to no avail.
> 
> Here's how it seems to me.  Believing is required, but it's just the beginning.  The devils are not saved by their belief.  And not every one that saith, Lord, Lord, enters into heaven.  But he that _doeth_....
> 
> ...


 
I don't think that's what Gem meant at all when speaking of the merits of Christ.
True, the devils believe God exists, but have no appreciation of his nature. His power and authority over them is a torment they "live" in. They recognized this power and authority in the Messiah but only have the fearful expectation of wrath.
For the believer, however, Jesus is the promise of the goodness and grace of God toward men...to be seen, believed...and cherished.
There is all the difference there is between believing God exists...and having the faith of the son of God. By the obedience of one man, and an obedience to the death, even the death of the cross...God has shown his immovable purpose through Christ to extend himself to the deepest depths to come under us, lift us, give us life...and a living hope...by the resurrection.
What seals our salvation, likewise seals God's perfectly righteous judgment toward all not found in his Son.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 15, 2013)

If God's thing is to pick and choose who He wishes to save and who He wishes to perish, why didn't He "make" the OT Jews believe? Was He not also in control of their will?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 15, 2013)

mtnwoman said:


> If God's thing is to pick and choose who He wishes to save and who He wishes to perish, why didn't He "make" the OT Jews believe? Was He not also in control of their will?



Their answer to that is he hardened their hearts so he would have an excuse to send his son to save them. He did the same thing to Adam. He made him sin so the OT Jews wouldn't be able to live by the law just to prove to us that we needed Jesus. It was his master plan all along.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 15, 2013)

Israel said:


> I don't think
> 
> I don't think that's what Gem meant at all when speaking of the merits of Christ.
> True, the devils believe God exists, but have no appreciation of his nature. His power and authority over them is a torment they "live" in. They recognized this power and authority in the Messiah but only have the fearful expectation of wrath.
> ...



2Cor 2:16  For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 15, 2013)

What would keep a person who believes in God and that Jesus died for their sins, not accept his sacrafice or God's gift? I know that there are plenty of people who have heard the story of Jesus but they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior. Why? Is it the commitment? If they do accept Jesus will they have to change their way of living?


----------



## Israel (Feb 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would keep a person who believes in God and that Jesus died for their sins, not accept his sacrafice or God's gift? I know that there are plenty of people who have heard the story of Jesus but they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior. Why? Is it the commitment? If they do accept Jesus will they have to change their way of living?



Who knows the depths of the deceitfulness of sin? 

Who knows the utterly unfathomable perversion of the heart of man to identify the _greatest gift_ as a burdensome obligation and weight? 

What manner of infection has so diseased the heart of man to imagine his creator has given man only enough life to perceive and tantalize him with the promise of perfection in joy and mercy to then withhold that as a matter of sadistic delight? Condemning him, like the mythical Sysiphus, to grunt and labor fruitlessly?

Rightly perhaps, a man may rail at those "gods"...of this world. But to stop short of seeing He who knew no sin, becoming in his own body the very miserable thing that had us bound...only for the sake of our release...is something we are not called to, nor should it likewise infect our gospel.

May we hold close in our hearts and bosoms, and in our mouths and mind the very words we are called to now share in all our proclamations of the one who has called us:
Luk 4:18  The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, 
Luk 4:19  To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. 

Perhaps first, all our bruising must be healed? All the hits we have taken while sojourning in the land of the performance under carrot and stick?


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What would keep a person who believes in God and that Jesus died for their sins, not accept his sacrafice or God's gift? I know that there are plenty of people who have heard the story of Jesus but they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior. Why? Is it the commitment? If they do accept Jesus will they have to change their way of living?



"The light came into the world, but the people loved the darkness."

I remember having great interest in the darkness of the world.  It was the place to be, at the time.  

Thankfully someone, not Jonah, properly reminded me of the great joy found within the light.
Lets get busy.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> 2Cor 2:16  For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life. And who is adequate for these things?



Could someone shed some light on this verse. Is Paul talking about the Gospel or Christians? Is he saying that as a teacher he has come to realize he can't convert everyone? The Gospel will just drive some people deeper into darkness?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't know if the New Testament contains commands or if it's just good advice for Christians to live by but there sure is a lot of it in there. You can't hardly read some chapters without a verse saying do this or don't do that. Then there is the thing about who it pertains to. That's for the Jews, he was preaching the disciples, or it doesn't apply today. 
I was just reading in Corinthians about how we should honor people older than us. There are verses about honoring church elders but also verses about honoring older men & women. 
The list of commands/request/advice is huge. Now I know we continue to say, true Christians will do this as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit, but still it's a lot of "doing". Is it works? will it keep me out of Heaven? I don't really know. 
I will say this. I don't think believing is the ending of a "Christian Life". If we don't see the fruit being produced what shall we do? Pray? I can't believe it is totally up to the Holy Spirit for a Christian to produce fruit. I believe I have to act myself. I have some input as to when I pray, when I help someone, when I honor someone, when I thank God, & when I am obedient.
I have a lot of input on the negative stuff too. When i don't forgive others, when I lie, when my faith wanders, when I covet my neighbors new car, & when I have lust in my heart.
On one point people say just believe. That's all you have to do.
I say it's hard to live a "Christian Life." Maybe I'm just weaker than most Christians. My sanctification started with my belief & Baptism. It didn't end with it. I've got a long, long way to go to even think that I'm anywhere near being Christlike. It didn't magically appear when the gift of the Holy spirit entered my body. I'm speaking for just me. Your relationship with God is completely different from mine. You might be 100% sanctified at conversion or you might of reached it last Sunday. I'm just saying I'm not there yet.
I'm still walking that "Lonesome Valley." I'm still not very humble and i'm still worldly & selfish. I'll even admit I'm still not honoring my elders and old people.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know if the New Testament contains commands or if it's just good advice for Christians to live by but there sure is a lot of it in there. You can't hardly read some chapters without a verse saying do this or don't do that. Then there is the thing about who it pertains to. That's for the Jews, he was preaching the disciples, or it doesn't apply today.
> I was just reading in Corinthians about how we should honor people older than us. There are verses about honoring church elders but also verses about honoring older men & women.
> The list of commands/request/advice is huge. Now I know we continue to say, true Christians will do this as proof of receiving the Holy Spirit, but still it's a lot of "doing". Is it works? will it keep me out of Heaven? I don't really know.
> I will say this. I don't think believing is the ending of a "Christian Life". If we don't see the fruit being produced what shall we do? Pray? I can't believe it is totally up to the Holy Spirit for a Christian to produce fruit. I believe I have to act myself. I have some input as to when I pray, when I help someone, when I honor someone, when I thank God, & when I am obedient.
> ...



"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

Or,  "If you are in Me, My will and My ways will be important to you".  Being of Christ will change you.  Period.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Could someone shed some light on this verse. Is Paul talking about the Gospel or Christians? Is he saying that as a teacher he has come to realize he can't convert everyone? The Gospel will just drive some people deeper into darkness?



In ancient Rome, when the Roman general and the Roman army destroyed an enemy they returned to Roman and were welcomed by citizens lining the streets to welcome the military back home in victory.
Along their parade route incense would be burning.
For the Roman soldiers, the aroma from the incense was the aroma of victory.  But for the prisoners of war that were forced to march the parade route with the Roman soldiers, it was the aroma of defeat.
The same aroma, but different receptions.

The same with the Gospel and it's sharing.  For those who will accept it, it is the sweet aroma of God's grace and mercy.  To those who do not, it is something else.
.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 16, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> In ancient Rome, when the Roman general and the Roman army destroyed an enemy they returned to Roman and were welcomed by citizens lining the streets to welcome the military back home in victory.
> Along their parade route incense would be burning.
> For the Roman soldiers, the aroma from the incense was the aroma of victory.  But for the prisoners of war that were forced to march the parade route with the Roman soldiers, it was the aroma of defeat.
> The same aroma, but different receptions.
> ...



I read this too. It was popular among the Jews:
"As the bee brings home honey to the owner, but stings others, so it is with the words of the Law." "They (the words of the Law) are a savior of life to Israel, but a savor of death to the people of this world."


----------



## hawglips (Feb 26, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I see contradiction here but it may just be in the way I read it. You say "No matter what you do, you cannot be saved, outside of Christ." But then you say "But it's just the entrance.  There is also a path to traverse.  He showed us the way."
> 
> If we are in Christ and Christ is in us, who is doing this traversing? Who is the author and finisher?



What did Christ say was required?  That's what I believe is required.  Among those requirements is faith in Jesus Christ.  And upon that faith is all the rest is built.  Without that faith in Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what you do, your sins remain, and no unclean thing can enter into eternal life.  But all that he said was required, is required.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 26, 2013)

hawglips said:


> What did Christ say was required?  That's what I believe is required.  Among those requirements is faith in Jesus Christ.  And upon that faith is all the rest is built.  Without that faith in Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what you do, your sins remain, and no unclean thing can enter into eternal life.  But all that he said was required, is required.



That was a question earlier. Where does this thing call faith 
originate? When you have faith in God, is it your faith originating from you or the Holy Spirit giving you faith? 

I see it as a journey of Sanctification.


----------



## gemcgrew (Feb 26, 2013)

hawglips said:


> What did Christ say was required?  That's what I believe is required.  Among those requirements is faith in Jesus Christ.  And upon that faith is all the rest is built.  Without that faith in Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter what you do, your sins remain, and no unclean thing can enter into eternal life.  But all that he said was required, is required.


Nothing is required from me, but all of me! My hope is not my faith in Christ, but the faith of Christ!
“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Galatians 2:20)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 26, 2013)

I believe we must follow the New Testament commandments not the Old Testament commandments.


----------



## hawglips (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That was a question earlier. Where does this thing call faith
> originate? When you have faith in God, is it your faith originating from you or the Holy Spirit giving you faith?
> 
> I see it as a journey of Sanctification.



I do too.  

It starts out small, like the tiny mustard seed, that grows up into a place large enough where other creatures can find lodging.  

It's like the parable of the sower. Not all hear the word and react to it the same way.  Some after receiving it allow the evil one to come and pluck it out of their hearts.  Another, receives it with joy and praising, but then when trials and persecution arise, he is offended, and discards it.  Another hears it with joy but then allows the cares of the world to grow up and crowd out the growing faith, which chokes it, and it bears no fruit.    But some, receive it, nourish it, and that faith grows and bears much fruit.


----------



## hawglips (Feb 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe we must follow the New Testament commandments not the Old Testament commandments.



I think we shouldn't confuse the rites and strict procedures of the Law of Moses with eternal commandments.   Christ actually named some OT commandments when He was asked which commandments should be obeyed in order to receive eternal life.  (Matt. 19)

And in the sermon on the mount Christ taught that it was not enough to just obey the letter of the commandments, but we must obey the spirit of them as well -- eg., thou shalt not commit adultery has become though shalt not lust after another woman in our hearts; thou shalt not kill becomes thou shalt not be angry at thy brother; etc.


----------



## hawglips (Feb 27, 2013)

But I also believe that we shouldn't confuse obedience with earning anything.  We all are at different places in our walk along the narrow path that leads to eternal life.  Some are farther along, and others are just getting started.  And that's not what's important.  What's important is that we are on the path.  As Huck Finn said, "you can't pray a lie."  It's what's in your heart that determines whether you're on the path or not.  And like the brass serpant that Moses raised up in the wilderness to save the people -- if they would only have the faith enough to look - which was a type of Christ -  so it is with us today.

If we are not willing to look, or if we are not willing to do what Christ asked us to do, then that shows what's in our hearts, and demonstrates that we are not on the narrow path.  And that's what James meant by 'faith without works is dead'.


----------



## Israel (Feb 27, 2013)

When we are shown the obedience of Christ by revelation and invited to walk with him there, we know well, it is not our own obedience we are invited to present.
We also know well that this is given (the revelation of Christ's obedience) as a gift, not a burden, and that the experience of eternal life is not something we receive "some(future)day"...but touch (always) in the present, when we abide.

Life "in time" is a sore burden, Jesus came to save us from both it, and its tedium. And the manifold temptations that follow to try to make it bearable.

"Time sure passes when you are having fun"...yes...the fun we may often seek makes us remarkably ignorant of time...until it is "time" to pay the piper.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2013)

I would like some input on2 Peter 2:20-21. How could someone be worse off than before? What is worse than eternal punishment?

2 Peter 2:20-21
And when people escape from the wickedness of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and then get tangled up and enslaved by sin again, they are worse off than before. 21)It would be better if they had never known the way to righteousness than to know it and then reject the command they were given to live a holy life.


----------



## panfried0419 (Mar 13, 2013)

Romans 10:9 pretty much sums it up for me.


----------

