# Youth ministry is not biblical...



## Huntinfool (Jul 29, 2011)

That's my assertion...



...am I wrong?

(just for you RJ)


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## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That's my assertion...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes.  You're wrong

Really though...where's your Biblical argument against it?  I think I've got a pretty good example of how children were normally kept separate from their parents during church in OT and some in the NT, but I see examples where they were all together.

I'm not going to say it is Biblical or unBiblical.  I've seen both.


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## stringmusic (Jul 29, 2011)

I have never thought about this, all I have to say is.....


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## Huntinfool (Jul 29, 2011)

> “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your children, and shall talk of them when you sit in your house, and when you walk by the way, and when you lie down, and when you rise. You shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontlets between your eyes. You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates.
> 
> (Deuteronomy 6:4-9 ESV)



80% of teens abandon the faith by the time they reach college.  Almost all were discipled in youth ministry and not in the home.  If it were biblical, 80% would not be abandoning the faith.

Parents are charged with discipleship of their children and only parents.  

Youth ministry is designed to seperate children from parents, disciple them outside of the authority of parents (specifically fathers) and essentially tells parents "don't try this at home...we're professionals".

Some might try to make the "well not ALL youth groups are like that".  I would ask, what is the purpose of youth group?  It is designed to disciple (and it very rarely does that).  Discipleship of children is very clearly laid out as a responsibility of parents biblically.

Parents are too quick to farm their children off to someone else to disciple because they are convinced of their own ability to do it.



Go watch this if you want a really good watch.  Not an endorsement of the movie.  But it's very interesting.

*www.dividedthemovie.com*


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## Gabassmaster (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Yes.  You're wrong
> 
> Really though...where's your Biblical argument against it?  I think I've got a pretty good example of how children were normally kept separate from their parents during church in OT and some in the NT, but I see examples where they were all together.
> 
> I'm not going to say it is Biblical or unBiblical.  I've seen both.



Agreed, if im right about what i "think" your talking bout


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## Gabassmaster (Jul 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> 80% of teens abandon the faith by the time they reach college.  Almost all were discipled in youth ministry and not in the home.  If it were biblical, 80% would not be abandoning the faith.
> 
> Parents are charged with discipleship of their children and only parents.
> 
> ...




What do you consider the age that one would be in the youth Group because I think Childrens church is a good thing but I remember at age 13 when I got saved they wanted to put me in the “youth” group and I didn’t like it because I felt like I was being spoon fed the bible, so I would always just stay in the adult group in church


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## formula1 (Jul 29, 2011)

*Re:*

I would say it is biblical in the sense that we must as Jesus said, minister to the children.  Of this, he was even indignant in one passage toward his disciples.

Matthew 19
13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, 14 but Jesus said,  "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." 15 And he laid his hands on them and went away.

Mark 10:13-14
And they were bringing children to him that he might touch them, and the disciples rebuked them. But when Jesus saw it, he was indignant and said to them, "Let the children come to me; do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of God.

How can we possibly say with good conscience say, youth ministry is therefore unbiblical, not to mention that it really just simply is not discussed explictly elsewhere?

And the Spirit bears witness to me in our modern day of fragmented families, divorces, abuse, and all manner of evil, that if we don't minister to our youth we will have destroyed an entire generation and not done the will of God.  

I want no part of a ministry that ignores ministry to children and youth. Further, I will run as far away as I can from such a ministry


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## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Almost all were discipled in youth ministry and not in the home.


I would say they weren't discipled either place....which would be the fault of the parent and the church.  In your case above, that is the fault of the parent....not the church.



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Parents are charged with discipleship of their children and only parents.



Not true.  We are told to disciple others.  Look at Titus 2...older women teaching younger women is another example of this.



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Youth ministry is designed to seperate children from parents, disciple them outside of the authority of parents (specifically fathers) and essentially tells parents "don't try this at home...we're professionals".



I've never seen a church youth group that has said that.




			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Some might try to make the "well not ALL youth groups are like that".  I would ask, what is the purpose of youth group?  It is designed to disciple (and it very rarely does that).  Discipleship of children is very clearly laid out as a responsibility of parents biblically.



The purpose of youth group is to come along side the parent and help disciple their children.  Many teens want nothing to do with their parents.  It is a partnership...the Parent holds the responsibility, but so does the Pastor.  It is a place to learn about God....but also to be a kid and to have friends and make relationships with others that are your age and in the same place as you are.

What is the purpose of Adult sunday school classes?  Is it not the same?



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Parents are too quick to farm their children off to someone else to disciple because they are convinced of their own ability to do it.



Again, that is the parents problem.  The church needs to stress that it is a partnership and that they are not desiring to take over the role of the parent, but simply coming alongside to re-inforce what the Bible/Parents are teaching in the home.




			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Go watch this if you want a really good watch.  Not an endorsement of the movie.  But it's very interesting.
> 
> *www.dividedthemovie.com*



Will try to when I get home.

This is an interesting phenomon...the Voddie Bauchman movement.  And as I think through it, I wonder how much of his belief system on this is because of the Black culture.  Single mom's bringing their kids to church...desperately needing a break.

You see....the problems you described above are not caused by the church...they are caused by the parent.  If the parent maintains their responsibility in raising their family and the church maintains its responsibility in preaching the Word, you don't have any issues.




formula1 said:


> I would say it is biblical in the sense that we must as Jesus said, minister to the children.  Of this, he was even indignant in one passage toward his disciples.
> 
> Matthew 19
> 13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, 14 but Jesus said,  "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." 15 And he laid his hands on them and went away.
> ...



Those were the examples that I was thinking of.  Well put.


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## gtparts (Jul 29, 2011)

Let's face it!

If we leave it completely to the parents, who may be effectively absent from the home and who may be ill-equipped (or even non-equipped, as in "more lost than Waldo") to provide discipleship, we are abandoning as much as 50% of the youth to no spiritual training. 

The question is not "parent OR youth ministry". It is a matter of carrying out the Great Commission. Tens of thousands are reached through "youth ministry" BECAUSE there is no one at home and a friend invites them to experience Christ in the company of peers. 

The ANSWER is to do all that is asked of us to reach the lost, if necessary, by providing a safe place and loving, dedicated people to do for the "child", something that he or she may never get at home, because it just may not be in the home.

Don't write-off a generation just because they come from something other than a strong and loving Christian home!!


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## rjcruiser (Jul 29, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Let's face it!
> 
> If we leave it completely to the parents, who may be effectively absent from the home and who may be ill-equipped (or even non-equipped, as in "more lost than Waldo") to provide discipleship, we are abandoning as much as 50% of the youth to no spiritual training.
> 
> ...



GT...in defense of Huntin...I don't think he's saying to write them off.  I think he's saying they should go to the main service and worship everyone else there.


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## gtparts (Jul 29, 2011)

Statistically, it is a rare thing to come to salvation in Christ after the teen years. And, yes, I know there are numerous exceptions,... but they ARE just that, exceptions. 
This seems to point to the maturing and educational processes as being contributing factors to the "hardening of the heart".


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## gtparts (Jul 29, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> GT...in defense of Huntin...I don't think he's saying to write them off.  I think he's saying they should go to the main service and worship everyone else there.



I fully understand that. However, my concern is for the child/student of the unsaved or nominal Christian, who may never choose to attend a worship service or who does but is never discipled. Worship services generally do not allow time for answering questions or one-on-one interaction with a mentor-type individual.

I think Huntin needs to consider that some young people are clearly at an advantage for coming to and growing in the Lord. Some have not been blessed with the best of circumstances for ever coming to Christ. Yes, God will seek out whom He chooses, but we are not given the task of deciding who that is. 

"As you are going,......"


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## Ronnie T (Jul 29, 2011)

Youth Ministry is not Biblical.



Huntinfool said:


> That's my assertion...
> 
> ...am I wrong?
> 
> (just for you RJ)




Well, "ministry" is biblical and I think it comes in all forms and varieties.

There are women's ministry, where women deal with motherly issues and marriage and being good examples.

Some churches have a Spanish ministry that provides for spanish speaking members.

I know of a "deaf" ministry, that deals with providing spiritual support to the deaf believers and non believers.

And some churches have a youth ministry.  
This ministry provides a means for Christian young people to socialize and deal with the everyday issues of being a Christian teenager in America.

My personal favorite form of youth ministry is as follows...  
The youth department is headed up by a Youth Leader.  Not pastor or minister.  
During Sunday school the entire church goes to 'age-appropriate' Bible classes.
During worship time everyone, especially all Christians, are sitting together, worshiping together, singing together, praying together, listening to the preacher together.
Very young children might be in the nursery.

The youth program is a program that would provide a spiritual forum for the young people to be able to socialize and spend time together with other Christian youth.
The youth group might go bowling on Saturday afternoon.
They might have a "lock-in" at church all night Friday night, with plenty of adult's there and lots of safe, Christian fun and games.

They would read the Bible together.
They would sing songs together.
They would pray together and for each other.  You'd be amazed at some of the things a teenager will discuss with a group of peers that he/she will not discuss with a parent.

But it would not be a substitution for church and it would not be a substitution for the parents.


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## dawg2 (Jul 29, 2011)

holy cow...


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## The Foreigner (Jul 30, 2011)

This is a tough one - because both are right. I don't see anywhere in Scripture which separates the children from the rest of the covenant people (at least in the OT children WERE viewed as members of the covenant - not believers to be clear, but as members of the covenant) at the times of worship. I'd be interested to see such evidence.

However, the other side also is right - I've seen it far too often that parental responsibility is abdicated to the church and we see the disastrous effects.

I don't think kids should be removed from the place of blessing - corporate worship, but if that is the extent of children's ministry, then I wonder what the church is doing. The Church's job is to disciple ALL who are within her midst.


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## mtnwoman (Jul 30, 2011)

Thinking back, and I mean way back...lol...I'm glad that we had sunday school by age, along with training union on sunday night and other bible study according to our age.

I also remember sitting in 'big' church with my grandma, and I was clueless at least up until I was 17 or so as to what the pastor was talking about, I hadn't learned the meat of the word. I am glad that most churches have an age appropiate bible study for the youth group and the outside activities that goes with it...ie volley ball, soft ball, and all that. Keeps them close to the fold donchaknow, and that can't be a bad thing, seeing the world crumbling around us. And it keeps them away from gangsta rap and such when they are always involved in some other fun activity at church.  They should be able to enjoy the Joy of our Lord, age appropiately.

But that's just me.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

But, mtnwoman...

I know where you're coming from.  But what do you do with the fact that nearly 80% of youth leave the faith given the fact that the church's current strategy to "keep them close to the fold" (for most churches) is that same age appropriate bible study?


I intentionally left this thread alone over the weekend.  But there are a few posts I'd like to respond to and I'll get around to it as soon as I can this morning.  

I do know that I mispoke on one point that RJ pointed out and I'll correct that and I have some questions on other posts.  Please be clear.  I'm not condemning ministry to youth or teens.  I'm convinced, though, that the current approach is not biblical and the focus is on the wrong people.


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## Jeff Phillips (Aug 1, 2011)

I have been personally involved in some wonderful Youth Ministries that produced Ministers, Missionaries, Sunday School Teachers, etc.

An interesting statistic would be how many of that 80% you keep talking about come back to their faith... 

I would also like to know how many of the kids that go to churches with no "Youth Ministry" turn from their faith during their late teens. I would suspect it is right around 80%...


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## formula1 (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But what do you do with the fact that nearly 80% of youth leave the faith given the fact that the church's current strategy to "keep them close to the fold" (for most churches) is that same age appropriate bible study?



We must teach them to have their own Jesus and not the Jesus the youth leaders or parents or pastors have.  Having then become disciples instead of attendees, well there is the difference.  The world is going to come after them, if the Jesus in them is 'theirs' then the whole armor will protect them.  

Looking forward to hearing you other comments as well.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I intentionally left this thread alone over the weekend.  But there are a few posts I'd like to respond to and I'll get around to it as soon as I can this morning.
> .



or you're just lazy


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

Well...that too.

My other excuse is that I have three kids under 4 and I'm just tired.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> We must teach them to have their own Jesus and not the Jesus the youth leaders or parents or pastors have.  Having then become disciples instead of attendees, well there is the difference.  The world is going to come after them, if the Jesus in them is 'theirs' then the whole armor will protect them.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing you other comments as well.



100% agree.  I think you're hearing what I'm saying.  But there's another side of the coin that I feel many (if not most) churches are dropping the ball.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I would say it is biblical in the sense that we must as Jesus said, minister to the children.  Of this, he was even indignant in one passage toward his disciples.
> 
> Matthew 19
> 13 Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, 14 but Jesus said,  "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven." 15 And he laid his hands on them and went away.
> ...



Formula....with respect.  All of those passages are about children being brought to Jesus...not to a minister of youth.

No question that biblically speaking, children are to be brought to Christ, shown him and discipled into his kingdom.  I'm not arguing that we should leave children on their own to find Christ.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

Quotes from RJ:



> I would say they weren't discipled either place....which would be the fault of the parent and the church.  In your case above, that is the fault of the parent....not the church.



Exactly




> Not true.  We are told to disciple others.  Look at Titus 2...older women teaching younger women is another example of this.



This is where I mis-spoke.  Not "ONLY" parents.  But parents FIRST.  Most youth programs are designed to function outside of the influence of parents...and you cannot overcome the influence of parents no matter how hard you try...whether good or bad.




> I've never seen a church youth group that has said that.



Yes you have...you've seen lots of them.  They don't say it explicitly.  Bu tthey say it via the way they design the ministry.  "Drop your kids off on Sunday nights and wednesday nights (or whatever times).  We'll disciple them and send them home.  No need for you to participate."





> The purpose of youth group is to come along side the parent and help disciple their children.  Many teens want nothing to do with their parents.  It is a partnership...the Parent holds the responsibility, but so does the Pastor.  It is a place to learn about God....but also to be a kid and to have friends and make relationships with others that are your age and in the same place as you are.



You got it.  But almost all of them do NOT come along side parents.  They do NOT equip parents.  They are designed to do the discipling without the parents and, as I said...you cannot overcome the influence of parents.




> What is the purpose of Adult sunday school classes?  Is it not the same?



I don't know what the purpose is.  I suppose to disciple grown adults.  Adults are responsible for themselves.  Parents are responsible for children.  That's the difference.




> You see....the problems you described above are not caused by the church...they are caused by the parent



You got it.  But the church is doing nothing about it (for the most part).



> If the parent maintains their responsibility in raising their family and the church maintains its responsibility in preaching the Word, you don't have any issues.



If they had a font big enough, I'd give you the biggest AMEN they could print.  The church's job in discipling children is not to do the discipling (or at least not primarily)...it is to equip the parents who might often feel inadequate.  It is to grow godly parents who will disciple children.  Again...you cannot overcome the influence of parents, no matter how hard you try.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

Quotes from GTparts:



> Let's face it!
> 
> If we leave it completely to the parents, who may be effectively absent from the home and who may be ill-equipped (or even non-equipped, as in "more lost than Waldo") to provide discipleship, we are abandoning as much as 50% of the youth to no spiritual training.



That's the normal church cop out in my opinion.  I'd rather 50% than 80% and there is a better, more biblical way around the 50%.  If the parents won't do it, then treat them as orphans and someone in the church should come along side them and indivually disciple them.  It's not ideal and parental influence will be tough.  But it's better than the current and is entirely biblical.



> The question is not "parent OR youth ministry". It is a matter of carrying out the Great Commission. Tens of thousands are reached through "youth ministry" BECAUSE there is no one at home and a friend invites them to experience Christ in the company of peers.



Then explain why they are all leaving if they are being "reached".





> Don't write-off a generation just because they come from something other than a strong and loving Christian home



Not at all what I'm saying.  I'm saying that we are not doing ENOUGH to save them.  We are given a model for discipleship of children in the Bible.  To say, "let's face it...that won't work" is insulting.  Cultural issues don't change the model.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm just trying to get us to think on this for a while.  I'm not quite as extreme on the idea as I might sound.  I just want to re-inforce that, biblically, parents are to disciple their children and that means all day, every day in the home.  I'm not saying that youth ministry is a bad thing.  It can be a fine thing for kids....but it CANNOT take the responsibility to effectively be the primary discipling influence in kids' lives.

We, as parents (or disciplers) are to live a life in front of them that will show them Christ.  We are to teach them to truths of God so that they will come to him.  Far too often, we shirk that responsibility and turn them over to the "professionals" to disciple and then we WONDER why they see so much hypocrisy in the Christian church.

They live in homes where mom and dad show little to no commitment to Christ.  They are not discipled in the home and then they are FORCED to go to church and "pretend" for two hours every sunday morning.

They learn that going to church is "the right thing to do" and they get accustomed to it so they start into youth group.  Well meaning youth ministers do the best they can.  But those kids are living in homes that teach them that a true intimate relationship with Christ and committment to his truths is not important.  All that is important is that people see you at church....

...and then we sit back and scratch our heads as to why 80% leave when they are finally able to.

PARENTS!!!! Disciple your children!!!

The church is failing kids because it's failing parents.  It is failing to truly disciple.  It is failing to fight for the spiritual growth of its members and the children are unfortunate casualties of that failure.

Until churches begin to disciple and equip parents, children will continue to leave in droves and we will be powerless to stop it.  Until churches realize that no youth group in the country will be able to stop this trend, they will continue to leave.  

Yes, absolutely, there are a BUNCH of kids in our society who have pathetic, non-committed parents who won't do it.  Is youth group the answer?  Perhaps it can help.  But my question is this.  Which is better?  A youth group to disciple and develop them where they are under the influence of peers or a one-one relationship with a godly mature Christian man or woman who accepts the responsibility to take them under their influence as their own child?

It's a lot to ask.  I get that.  But....is it biblical?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Most youth programs are designed to function outside of the influence of parents...



When your "most" above becomes all, I'll agree with your position.



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> Yes you have...you've seen lots of them.  They don't say it explicitly.  Bu tthey say it via the way they design the ministry.  "Drop your kids off on Sunday nights and wednesday nights (or whatever times).  We'll disciple them and send them home.  No need for you to participate."



I guess I'm different.  The church I grew up at had an awesome youth program.  Although not super involved, my parents knew what was going on and were in communication with the staff.  They were probably more involved than I ever knew....but maybe I was an exception to the rule.



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> You got it.  But almost all of them do NOT come along side parents.  They do NOT equip parents.  They are designed to do the discipling without the parents and, as I said...you cannot overcome the influence of parents.



Another gross generalization...but I'd agree with you on not equipping the parents.  Most churches today don't even preach the Word expositorily, so how are they going to equip Parents/Youth/everyone?

Oh...and yes, you can overcome the influence of parents.  I know many who are Christians whose parents were not saved. 




			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> I don't know what the purpose is.  I suppose to disciple grown adults.  Adults are responsible for themselves.  Parents are responsible for children.  That's the difference.



Well....there is the issue.  Teenagers are in that inbetween phase.  In Biblical times, there was children...and adults.  Now, we've created a third category.  Parents are still responsible, but they are giving more responsibility over to the child.  If done properly, it works.  If not, well...again, the fault of the parent.



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> You got it.  But the church is doing nothing about it (for the most part).



There's that dreaded most again  




Huntinfool said:


> It can be a fine thing for kids....but it CANNOT take the responsibility to effectively be the primary discipling influence in kids' lives.



I agree.  But when you say youth ministry is "unBiblical," you've hopped on the legalistic train. 



			
				Huntinfool said:
			
		

> We, as parents (or disciplers) are to live a life in front of them that will show them Christ.  We are to teach them to truths of God so that they will come to him.  Far too often, we shirk that responsibility and turn them over to the "professionals" to disciple and then we WONDER why they see so much hypocrisy in the Christian church.
> 
> They live in homes where mom and dad show little to no commitment to Christ.  They are not discipled in the home and then they are FORCED to go to church and "pretend" for two hours every sunday morning.
> 
> ...



All that is not the fault of youth ministry.  It is the fault of churches that have lost the desire to Preach the Word of God.  They've gone soft in their messages.  They post one verse up on the screen and tell stories.  They tell you how to "feel better about yourself."  

The seeker sensitive movement...the liberal church...it is the reason we're losing the youth...not youth ministry.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm not blaming youth ministry.  Youth ministry is a result of the problem.  The church is at fault and the parents are at fault.

The youth ministry is the solution that those two have come up with to try to "fix" the problem.

Youth ministry in itself is not unbiblical.  Youth ministry IN ITS CURRENT FORM AND AS CURRENTLY STRUCTURED IN MOST CHURCHES is entirely un-biblical.  It's not legalistic.  It's biblical truth.

There are certainly exceptions.  I'm speaking broadly regarding 90+% of what you would see when you walk into a church today.


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## Jeffriesw (Aug 1, 2011)

AMEN Huntinfool!!!!!


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

One supporter!  Ha!

Y'all read this as posting out of concern for churches and kids...not condemnation.  I hope that comes through.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Youth ministry in itself is not unbiblical.  Youth ministry IN ITS CURRENT FORM AND AS CURRENTLY STRUCTURED IN MOST CHURCHES is entirely un-biblical.  It's not legalistic.  It's biblical truth.
> 
> There are certainly exceptions.  I'm speaking broadly regarding 90+% of what you would see when you walk into a church today.




Well...I'd go and agree with you that 90+% of churchs today in their current form are un-Biblical.

That doesn't get me posting a thread saying church is unBiblical....but...hey...maybe I should.


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## JB0704 (Aug 1, 2011)

> 90+% of churchs today in their current form are un-Biblical



Hey RJ, here's something else we agree on (most likely for different reasons).


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> But, mtnwoman...
> 
> I know where you're coming from.  But what do you do with the fact that nearly 80% of youth leave the faith given the fact that the church's current strategy to "keep them close to the fold" (for most churches) is that same age appropriate bible study?
> 
> ...



That's a valid point that's worth many churches examining.


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## formula1 (Aug 1, 2011)

*Re:*



Huntinfool said:


> Formula....with respect.  All of those passages are about children being brought to Jesus...not to a minister of youth.



Disagree. But I would rather talk about the other points you have made.

1) Parents, in a perfect world are the key, and some young folks who live in a quality Christian environment in the home and are discipled at home have the best opportunity for success in the Lord.  But most youth don't live in a perfect world.
2) Next, the church should look to the parents and lead them to growing relationship in Christ, if they are marginal in their walk. Then parents can take their role as disciplers as they walk toward Him.  This is especially true if men with the strength to follow Christ, as whole familes are transformed because of men assuming spiritual headship.
3) Next, the youth ministries should be along side the parents in their support of their youths' growing relationship in Christ. Just yesterday, for example, upcoming 6th graders and their parents were invited to a middle school ministry kickoff at my church, to invite and involve these new kids and their parents into the ministry to their kids.

Of course, these ideal things are better! I agree!

I don't think its churches failing parents as much as it is parents failing God by refusing to lead and disciple their kids.

You cannot ignore those youth who don't live in godly homes or who don't have reasonable examples lived out before them. Giving up on a generation that has no example shown to them in the home is no option at all!

Also, it is the church that is charged with perfecting the saints in scripture, not merely the parents.

Ephesians 4 
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;

I would like to believe that our churches are doing just that, equipping all of us, including our youth, for the work of the ministry and for the building of the body of Christ.

Parents can be a part of the solution, obviously, since they can be the best teachers and influences in discipleship no doubt.  They can be part of the problem too, if they are unresponsive to living the gospel they supposedly aspire too.

I am comfortable with your insistance on the parents being a key to discipleship and reaching them is the best way to reach the youth. That I get!  

I am uncomfortable with your assertion that youth ministry is unbiblical as it is a piece of the puzzle vital to the growth of young believers, those with godly examples and those without as well. We cannot ignore any of them.  For me, I would not be here talking to you today without them. 

You rightfully can hold to your assertions against youth ministry, but I respectfully and completely disagree for these reasons above.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I have been personally involved in some wonderful Youth Ministries that produced Ministers, Missionaries, Sunday School Teachers, etc.
> 
> An interesting statistic would be how many of that 80% you keep talking about come back to their faith...
> 
> I would also like to know how many of the kids that go to churches with no "Youth Ministry" turn from their faith during their late teens. I would suspect it is right around 80%...



Somehow those two statistics aren't very comforting to me.  If 80 percent are leaving the church when they leave home something is wrong either at church or in the home.

I've got an 8 year old grandson that listens to much of the sermons, sings the songs from the hymnals and would lead prayer if asked.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> We must teach them to have their own Jesus and not the Jesus the youth leaders or parents or pastors have.  Having then become disciples instead of attendees, well there is the difference.  The world is going to come after them, if the Jesus in them is 'theirs' then the whole armor will protect them.
> 
> Looking forward to hearing you other comments as well.



Amen Amen Amen.

Disciples instead of attendees.


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## gtparts (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Quotes from GTparts:
> 
> 
> Quote:
> ...



Let me be clear on the issue. I have great concern for the youths who abandon church as they go into the world. That is exactly why vibrant, engaging youth ministries are so critical. There is less interaction between youth and parents than in previous generations and far less between youth and adults in general. The trend is clearly that youth spend the bulk of their waking hours in peer-to-peer relationships. If the church does not provide the opportunity for youth to interact in the context of Christian evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship, they will go where their lost friends go, rather than to a non-existent youth ministry. So, the 50% ( just an estimate) I referred to are  not the youth of church members, but their friends who are essentially un-churched. 
My point is that you have to win them before you should concern yourself about losing them. Youth ministry is by far the most effective way of reaching lost youth, today!! 
Then, it becomes equally necessary to disciple them so that they won't abandon the faith when tempted by the snares of the world.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> One supporter!  Ha!
> 
> Y'all read this as posting out of concern for churches and kids...not condemnation.  I hope that comes through.



You have several supporters.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Hey RJ, here's something else we agree on (most likely for different reasons).



We find common ground in the most unlikely of places 

Curious...what your reasons are.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

> 1) Parents, in a perfect world are the key, and some young folks who live in a quality Christian environment in the home and are discipled at home have the best opportunity for success in the Lord.  But most youth don't live in a perfect world.



Deuteronomy was not written to a perfect world.  Neither were any of the other passages that tell fathers to disciple their children.



> 2) Next, the church should look to the parents and lead them to growing relationship in Christ, if they are marginal in their walk. Then parents can take their role as disciplers as they walk toward Him.  This is especially true if men with the strength to follow Christ, as whole familes are transformed because of men assuming spiritual headship.




100% amen my brotha.




> I don't think its churches failing parents as much as it is parents failing God by refusing to lead and disciple their kids.



Then maybe we just disagree on what the local church's job is.  Parents need to be equipped and discipled themselves before they will do it in their homes.  The most intimidating place to share and live your faith is often in your own home.




> You cannot ignore those youth who don't live in godly homes or who don't have reasonable examples lived out before them. Giving up on a generation that has no example shown to them in the home is no option at all!



I laid out a biblical case for dealing with those who don't live in godly homes.  I'm not ignoring them.




> Also, it is the church that is charged with perfecting the saints in scripture, not merely the parents.



It is a question of where the saints are "made" when we're talking about children.  If they don't see it modeled in their homes, they will leave and there is no youth ministry in the world that can change that statistic.


Again...it's not the ministry that's unbiblical.  It's the model and most churches follow the same model.

"leave it to the professionals" is what is being communicated to the parents.  I know you guys are going to give me a bunch of "well not in my church" responses.  I'd just ask you to take a serious look at how many of the kids who have gone through your youth programs really hold fast to the faith after they leave.  If it's a large marjority, then good for you!  You're doing something right.  

But if most of the people responding here say "well not in my church", then we have a bunch of people who are kidding themselves and denying the reality of what's happening.

If the trend doesn't reverse, Christianity as we know it in the United States will be exstinct in less than 4 generations.  The math doesn't lie.  Under the current trend, it takes nearly EIGHT children from EACH Christian home just to sustain numbers.  1 in 4 leaves.

The church will bring in followers of Christ outside of just reproduction.  But Muslim families don't lose 3 out of 4 now do they!  Why do you think that is?????

The Muslim faith will simply out-reproduce Christianity if something isn't done to reverse this.  It's already happening in many European countries.

But now I'm off on an entirely different tangent.  Sorry guys.  I'll give myself one of these...


----------



## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Let me be clear on the issue. I have great concern for the youths who abandon church as they go into the world. That is exactly why vibrant, engaging youth ministries are so critical. There is less interaction between youth and parents than in previous generations and far less between youth and adults in general. The trend is clearly that youth spend the bulk of their waking hours in peer-to-peer relationships. If the church does not provide the opportunity for youth to interact in the context of Christian evangelism, discipleship, and fellowship, they will go where their lost friends go, rather than to a non-existent youth ministry. So, the 50% ( just an estimate) I referred to are  not the youth of church members, but their friends who are essentially un-churched.
> My point is that you have to win them before you should concern yourself about losing them. *Youth ministry is by far the most effective way of reaching lost youth, today!! *Then, it becomes equally necessary to disciple them so that they won't abandon the faith when tempted by the snares of the world.





If youth ministry, with it's 20% success rate is "by far the most effective way of reach lost youth today", then God help us....

What you're saying is that kids prefer to hang out with kids...and so as parents, we allow them to walk away from family relationships and our influence and be influenced by their peers instead.

So the most effective way to disciple them is to put them in the very same peer-to-peer environment that draws them away from Christ....and think they will come away better than being discipled in their homes.

GT, the most effective means to reach lost youth today is a godly father discipling in his home.  Until they leave our homes, they are under our authority.  They don't hang out with peers more than us unless we allow it.  It's not "old school".  It's not "legalistic".  It's not "separationist"...it's just biblical and we've gotten away from it.  Too many parents do not consider it important to model Christ in the home and disciple their own children...they have the church for that.

You are trying to be a "realist" in the thread and I get that.  But you're making some very, IMO, misguided assumptions.  Kids/Youth....whatever....follow parents.  If we send them the message as they grow up that they should spend more time with friends than family, they will believe it...trust me.


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## JB0704 (Aug 1, 2011)

> Curious...what your reasons are



I do not believe in religion.  But, we could start with the office of head administrator in the modern Church (pastor).  It is not in the Bible.  The only singular head mentioned is Christ.  The modern use of this office looks more like an OT prophet.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

I'd prefer this go to another thread....but I AM curious if you can show me the biblical backing for that position.

in a new thread of course....this one is kind of staying on track and I'd like to try to keep it that way.


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## formula1 (Aug 1, 2011)

*Re:*

HuntingFool,

I really like the way you are thinking! I realize we are really not that far apart!  I'll leave you with this thought:

It's not either this way or that way! It's this way and that way for the benefit of all and ultimately for the Glory of God! I hope you'll get my meaning!

God Bless!


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## JB0704 (Aug 1, 2011)

> but I AM curious if you can show me the biblical backing for that position



Can you biblically back the concept of a "head pastor?" The office of deacon (servant) is there.  There are Elders too, who lead by committee.  There are even teaching elders.  But who is the head administrator, biblically?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

I'll start a thread and we can discuss.


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## JB0704 (Aug 1, 2011)

> I'll start a thread and we can discuss



Ok.  Every pastor I have ever asked eventually calls it a "gray area."


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> HuntingFool,
> 
> I really like the way you are thinking! I realize we are really not that far apart!  I'll leave you with this thought:
> 
> ...



Agreed.


I just think we've let the pendulum swing too far "that way"....and we need to let it come back more "this way".


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## rjcruiser (Aug 1, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The church will bring in followers of Christ outside of just reproduction.  But Muslim families don't lose 3 out of 4 now do they!  Why do you think that is?????
> 
> The Muslim faith will simply out-reproduce Christianity if something isn't done to reverse this.  It's already happening in many European countries.
> 
> But now I'm off on an entirely different tangent.  Sorry guys.  I'll give myself one of these...



Well...maybe if Christians started killing the kids that didn't stay "in the faith" we'd be doing better.

Oh...and promising 72 virgins might help in keeping the males.

Yup..that is a different topic altogether.


You might have a better correlation if you looked at the Mormon faith as their worship model is a bit different from the usual Protestant model.



Huntinfool said:


> I just think we've let the pendulum swing too far "that way"....and we need to let it come back more "this way".



I'd agree with that on most every part of church...and that is the cause of the issues found today.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

Regardless of the reasons....Muslims are outpacing us in a hurry.

Set that fact aside.  The numbers tell us that Christianity will be nearly non-existent in the U.S. within 4 generations if the trend doesn't reverse.  There is no way around it.

Thank God for the thousands upon thousands on other continents who come to Christ every day.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 1, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Can you biblically back the concept of a "head pastor?" The office of deacon (servant) is there.  There are Elders too, who lead by committee.  There are even teaching elders.  But who is the head administrator, biblically?



There is one "head" of the church.  Jesus Christ.
The Elders, or Shepherds serve the church as  shepherd would care for his sheep.  And they do it by group.
Scripturally, there is not a human "Head" of the church.

And the members should be involved in all major decisions that need be made.


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## huntmore (Aug 1, 2011)

What if the kids are getting the message but they are just turning away? 
I started a thread about childrens church a while back saying I didn't agree with it. There was nothing anyone said that made a good case for it. 
As a Catholic I went to Chrurch service with my mom and siblings and then went to sunday school after. I have two brothers and a sister. We where raised the same (i got more whoppings) but my youngest brother doesn't think there is a God.
I think some just will not believe no matter what and there are lots more temptation out there today.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 1, 2011)

Not 80% if parents do their job.


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## tmiller (Aug 1, 2011)

We just had this same discussion about the same topic and the same movie with several leaders in our church. Its an intresting topic. Huntinfool where do you go to church?


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## gtparts (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> If youth ministry, with it's 20% success rate is "by far the most effective way of reach lost youth today", then God help us....
> 
> What you're saying is that kids prefer to hang out with kids...and so as parents, we allow them to walk away from family relationships and our influence and be influenced by their peers instead.
> 
> ...



And I am telling you 50% (actually, significantly more) of the parents are ungodly. Their youth will most likely never be won to Christ or discipled, if the church does not find and use ways to encourage participation in matters of Christian faith. They aren't getting anything at home!  Those are the ones you seem to be writing off. 
Secondly, if we follow your thinking, let's be critical of VBS. Let's pull in all our nets, rather than repairing them when they require it. Beach the boats and wait for the world to come to us on our terms. 

In some sense, you seem to be in denial of the culture in which we live. It is real, it is here around us, and if we are to change it, we must do things differently, more effectively. 
Please tell me how you propose to change it.... demand that ALL parents raise their kids according to God's formula? We may be able to teach and encourage some Christian parents to follow it, but even some of them will not alter their own lifestyles and schedules to ensure that their children will follow.  

Do we have problems with our collective Christian families? There is no doubt. 
Does criticizing youth ministries change that dynamic? No.

For many youth of today, if they are fortunate to have access to one, Jesus, presented by youth ministry may be the only "life preserver" that ever gets tossed their way.

Let's work on the family issue, but let's not scrap a ministry that reaches many youth while the parents are failing to do their job.

Seems counter-productive to fault the YM for someone shirking their God-given responsibility.


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## Jeff Phillips (Aug 2, 2011)

gtparts said:


> For many youth of today, if they are fortunate to have access to one, Jesus, presented by youth ministry may be the only "life preserver" that ever gets tossed their way.
> 
> Let's work on the family issue, but let's not scrap a ministry that reaches many youth while the parents are failing to do their job.



I know a young man that came from a family that was not saved. He accepted Christ in a Youth Ministry, accepted the call to preach, AND LEAD IS FAMILY TO CHRIST!


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

> And I am telling you 50% (actually, significantly more) of the parents are ungodly. Their youth will most likely never be won to Christ or discipled, if the church does not find and use ways to encourage participation in matters of Christian faith. They aren't getting anything at home!  Those are the ones you seem to be writing off.



Go back and re-read.  I've said over and over and over and over again....I'm NOT writing them off!  Why is that the only option in your mind?  What I've put forth is that the current model of "youth ministry" that is used in 90+% of all churches is not biblical.  I've yet to see an effective argument that condtradicts that here or anywhere else.




> Secondly, if we follow your thinking, let's be critical of VBS. Let's pull in all our nets, rather than repairing them when they require it. Beach the boats and wait for the world to come to us on our terms.  In some sense, you seem to be in denial of the culture in which we live. It is real, it is here around us, and if we are to change it, we must do things differently, more effectively.



So...what you're saying is...the biblical model won't work...because it's not culturally relevant and can't be effective with today's kids....is that what you're getting at?  Sure sounds like it.  

"Look...that's all well and good.  But it won't work in our current culture."



> Please tell me how you propose to change it.... demand that ALL parents raise their kids according to God's formula? We may be able to teach and encourage some Christian parents to follow it, but even some of them will not alter their own lifestyles and schedules to ensure that their children will follow.



I've already told you many times in this thread.  YES...godly parents should disciple their own children.  Most of them do not.  What do we do with the kids in our churches who are not in godly homes?  Well, here it is once again...

If they are children of parents who profess to be Christians but show no fruit, then it is the church's responsibility to disciple those parents and show them that God requires they disciple their kids into the faith.  Are they too imature at this point?  Then grow them and come along side them as they grow and learn to disciple.

If they are children who attend without their parents, then someone (i.e. a godly adult or two who are already discipling their own children) in the church needs to come along side those kids and do the job.

Is there room for a youth group along with that?  I'll say yes.  But it's purpose is NOT to be the primary discipling influence in those kids lives.




> Do we have problems with our collective Christian families? There is no doubt.
> Does criticizing youth ministries change that dynamic? No.



You're right...but what I just posted above does...and in a hurry my friend.




> For many youth of today, if they are fortunate to have access to one, Jesus, presented by youth ministry may be the only "life preserver" that ever gets tossed their way.



...and yet again...you are talking about a life preserver with an 80% failure rate.  I don't think the Coast Gaurd would rate that a very effective (or biblical) preserver...do you?


You seem to be saying that youth ministry is all we've got so we have to use it even though it is an unmitigated failure.  It's NOT all we've got.  There is a biblical model that we are refusing to follow as the body of Christ.

I'll say this one more time.  Youth ministry as a concept is not bad, unbiblical or wrong.  Youth ministry in practice and in its current form in nearly all churches is unbiblical.  There is no way to argue against that.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

Jeff Phillips said:


> I know a young man that came from a family that was not saved. He accepted Christ in a Youth Ministry, accepted the call to preach, AND LEAD IS FAMILY TO CHRIST!



Congratulations!


I'm excited for him and for his family!


He is one of the 20%.



The Bible promises us that if we, as parents, will do our jobs...they will not depart from what we teach them.  That is much better than an 80% failure rate.  Yes, it's harder.  Yes, there are kids that don't have godly parents.  Yes, it's much easier to form a group, throw them in with volatile peers and pray that somehow the message gets through.  To some...obviously it does.  Your friend is an example.  To most, they are too distracted, intimidated by peers or just plain old not taught to get the message and 80% walk away.  It is a fact...and there is a solution to the problem.  We just don't want to do it (and I'll include myself...it's HARD to make little kids sit down and worship in the home!).


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

tmiller said:


> We just had this same discussion about the same topic and the same movie with several leaders in our church. Its an intresting topic. Huntinfool where do you go to church?



Crosspointe in Oxford.  No, the leadership does not 100% agree with me and yes we have a youth ministry.  There are a growing handful of us (fairly young fathers) who are talking and thinking a lot about issues like this.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Crosspointe in Oxford.  No, the leadership does not 100% agree with me and yes we have a youth ministry.  There are a growing handful of us (fairly young fathers) who are talking and thinking a lot about issues like this.



Maybe you should visit my church.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Crosspointe in Oxford.  No, the leadership does not 100% agree with me and yes we have a youth ministry.  There are a growing handful of us (fairly young fathers) who are talking and thinking a lot about issues like this.



And I'm glad you fathers are talking about it.

Youth ministries can be a good thing but fathers and mothers must make decisions concerning their children.

You might like for you children to go with the youth group for an afternoon of bowling.
You might say 'no way' to a weekend trip to Panama City.

Be certain of what your kids do and don't give up that responsibility to the church or a youth department.
The church needs parents to help direct it.  Parents should be involved in planning annual activities.

If you want your kids sitting next to you during worship, do it and don't feel guilty for doing it.  If your church doesn't support you in your decision, tell um you might have to find a more appropriate place to fellowship.

But YOU be the parent and the responsible person.


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## Crubear (Aug 2, 2011)

Youth Ministries are critical in today's society. There is little chance to connect to young families and their children without them. No church without a vital youth ministry will survive past another generation, they'll just keep getting older until no one is left.

You should also keep in mind that most of what we consider youth today were considered adults in the past. We (as a society) keep pushing adulthood out further and further and can't understand why our "kids" have adult drives and desires.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 2, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Youth Ministries are critical in today's society. There is little chance to connect to young families and their children without them. No church without a vital youth ministry will survive past another generation, they'll just keep getting older until no one is left.
> 
> You should also keep in mind that most of what we consider youth today were considered adults in the past. We (as a society) keep pushing adulthood out further and further and can't understand why our "kids" have adult drives and desires.



I cannot disagree with what you say.

Most families will not settle into a church that does not have some sort of youth program.
They'll find one that does.  The church without some sort of youth program will become a church without youth, generally speaking.

It's the families that seem to demand it.
Maybe because they want the church to take care of their kids spiritual needs.


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## gtparts (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Go back and re-read.  I've said over and over and over and over again....I'm NOT writing them off!  Why is that the only option in your mind?  What I've put forth is that the current model of "youth ministry" that is used in 90+% of all churches is not biblical.  I've yet to see an effective argument that condtradicts that here or anywhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You are still missing my point.

Exactly how does your church actively work to build relationships with youth who are lost and unchurched and whose parents are just as lost and just as unchurched? And, how is it working? 

Do they just stumble into your church, in particular, the worship service? 

If they come at all, it is most likely that a youth member has invited them (peer-to-peer) and to an event sponsored and lead by the age-appropriate SS class or the church youth group (YM). 
I'm telling you it works! It works when needs are met and Jesus is the central focus. 
Like anything else that is done wrong, the results will be disappointing. But, when it is done right, lives are transformed by the grace of God. The students, student leaders, and the adults who invest in YM at the church I attend are seeing results.

If it is broke at your church, FIX IT!! But don't criticize it. That assures that it won't get fixed.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Maybe you should visit my church.



Nah, I'd be worried about being involved in anything other than an online forum with you.  Worlds colliding and all that.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> And I'm glad you fathers are talking about it.
> 
> Youth ministries can be a good thing but fathers and mothers must make decisions concerning their children.
> 
> ...



That's pretty much the way we are approaching it.  We talk through this stuff with our elders all the time.  Though they are not willing to change what the church is doing at this point, they do not indicate that they think we are wrong or extreme.  They understand that we make decisions for our families and support that.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Youth Ministries are critical in today's society. There is little chance to connect to young families and their children without them. No church without a vital youth ministry will survive past another generation, they'll just keep getting older until no one is left.
> 
> You should also keep in mind that most of what we consider youth today were considered adults in the past. We (as a society) keep pushing adulthood out further and further and can't understand why our "kids" have adult drives and desires.




Justify the claim.  It cannot be done.  There is no evidence that youth ministry is vital to anything.  In fact (as I've said many times) the evidence actually points to the fact that youth ministry is failing on a massive scale and 80% of our youth are leaving the faith when they have the opportunity.

I said it in response to GT and I'll say it in response to you.  If youth ministry (in it's current form) is the only thing keeping our churches alive....then God help us.

How in the WORLD can you claim that youth ministry is what is keeping our churches alive with a failure rate like that?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Maybe because they want the church to take care of their kids spiritual needs.



EXACTLY!


...and then we (the church) bend to the will of the people and give them what they want...and unbiblical model that takes over the discipleship of children from their parents.


...and it's failing at an 80% rate.



I get that this is what people want.  I get that it's counter-cultural and that many people will reject a church that REQUIRES parents to disciple their own children.  It's a tough row to hoe.  But it's the biblical model.  The church should absolutely come along side parents and help equip them to do it and maybe even provide programs to help suppliment.  

But, Ronnie, what you just posted is the absolute truth.  Parents don't way "help".  They want the church to do it FOR them.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

gtparts said:


> If it is broke at your church, FIX IT!! But don't criticize it. That assures that it won't get fixed.



Criticizing it is the only way to point out the error and hopefully change the reality.


Our church does it pretty much like yours and most others do.  I support it because I support our elders as leaders.  

I am convinced, however, that the true solution is parents getting involved in the lives of kids again.  I'll say it again.  There is nothing wrong with "youth group" or "youth events" in and of themselves.

The model we are following is absolutely wrong though and there is no way to deny that biblically.  Your "it works" ONLY means that it works in terms of getting in the doors of the church.  No doubt about that.

The problem is that the get there because they are invited by a peer and then are leaving to the clip of 80% once they get out of that age group.  

You tell me...why is that?

Congratulations...they come in the doors.  What is happening after that is what is of consequence.


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## gtparts (Aug 2, 2011)

Crubear seems to understand that if churches do NOT grow younger, more committed, and pray for God to "extend the chords of their tents" (ref. to Jabez), they will surely grow older and smaller. I believe Crubear is one of many who has the pulse of the church and sees where the vitality must be addressed by successfully passing the Gospel to the next generation. 

And, I'm sure that is your concern also,HF. But, what happens to the youth till you get the parents to "parent up"?



> I am convinced, however, that the true solution is parents getting involved in the lives of kids again. I'll say it again. There is nothing wrong with "youth group" or "youth events" in and of themselves.



I know lots of parents in our community who are deeply involved with their kids. Soccer, football, swimming, cheerleading, band, drama, dance, martial arts, motocross, barrel-racing, go karts, but lost people never seem to see spiritual education (a personal relationship with the Savior) as a priority for themselves or their children. In many situations, if you can directly address the needs of the kids, you will get an opportunity to influence the parents. Kids frequently desire less stuff, fewer activities, and more time with responsible, caring adults, even if it isn't their parents. Sad, but true.


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## gtparts (Aug 2, 2011)

Did I miss fishing and hunting? Didn't mean to.

Fix the parents. YM needs the support from home!


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

It IS sad.  You're right.  And yes, that IS my concern as well.


But....



> Crubear seems to understand that churches that do NOT grow younger, more committed, and pray for God to "extend the chords of their tents" (ref. to Jabez), they will surely grow older and smaller. I believe Crubear is one of many who has the pulse of the church and sees where the vitality must be addressed by successfully passing the Gospel to the next generation.



Do you not want to address the fact that 80% are leaving and they are under the helm of that "pulse" you're talking about?  Something is wrong if those stats are right....isn't it?  

I mean, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result, right?


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## Crubear (Aug 2, 2011)

OK Huntin - I'm game, let's play the numbers game

1) How many youth stay in church who don't participate in a youth ministry? I'll take the 20% you seem to want to throw away.

There's a big difference in a youth program (which is what you're really talking about) and a youth ministry. The first is people oriented, the second is Christ oriented. My experience is Christ has a better success rate than I do.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

Where did I say I want to throw the 20% away?  You guys are jumping off a cliff with this.  You make the incorrect assumption that if there is no youth group, then youth must just be put out on the streets with no one to minister to them or disciple them...as if youth ministry is the ONLY option.

That's just silly.

Call it whatever you want.  80% of kids are leaving the church.  Most of them are in a youth program or ministry.

Do you think that, if we trained up godly parents and taught them to disciple their children, the retention rate would be better than 20%?


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## Crubear (Aug 2, 2011)

"When I was a kid, I had a drug problem - my parents drug me to church every Sunday" (sorry, I don't know who said it)

Those days are gone, many adults just don't see the need or don't like what they find you church Huntin.

What's interesting to me is; that a vibrant, active, Christ centered children's and youth ministry is creating an environment where the kids are dragging their parents to church.

I know, I'm one of them.


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## Crubear (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntin, you can't train the parents if they aren't going to church. You have to get them back in first.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

So, again....what you're saying is that the biblical model is culturally irrelevant....correct?


(nice dig on my church by the way...)


Do you keep stats or check up on the kids that leave your church and go off to college?  There is no argument that there are effective ways to get kids or parents to come to church consistently.

The issue here is not how successful you are at getting them in the door.  It's how successful you are at engraining the faith in them so deeply that they don't leave.

Maybe you're less than 80%.  But likely not much less.  In any case, we're talking about the church at large.  Don't make this personal.  I'm not indicting your program.  I'm saying that the typical model that sends the same message you're posting "parents won't do it so we have to" is the model that is failing at an 80% rate.

We can continue being satisfied with 20% staying faithful or we can change the model.  The thing is...what happens after they leave for college or wherever they go if the "youth leader" has been their discipler?  What happens?  Who are they going to talk to if parents have not been actively involved in the spiritual training of their children?  Is the youth guy going to be in their lives when they are 25?  Parents will...


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

Crubear said:


> Huntin, you can't train the parents if they aren't going to church. You have to get them back in first.



Absolutely.  No question about that.


Is the goal of your vibrant ministry to train and equip those parents after you get them back?  Or is it to do the discipling for them?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Our church does it pretty much like yours and most others do.  I support it because I support our elders as leaders.



How do you justify supporting something that you believe is unBiblical?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

I support it in the sense that I am not trying to "overthrow" it.  We have spoken to the elders and all agree that the option is there for those who want it and they don't have an issue with us disagreeing with it.

Quite honestly, we are changing the culture of the church from within.  Slowly.  But it's happening and we see the fruit of it.  

I don't have a problem with youth programs or ministry (whatever you want to call it).  I've said that a bunch of times.  I have an issue with the model they are following...and that includes ours. 

There is not a family integrated church in our area that I'm aware of and we are deeply entrenched in relationships at our church.  

We don't support it in the sense that we send our kids off to be discipled.  We support it in the sense that we are not trying to force the leadership to change it "cold turkey".  We are doing what we can to "turn the minds of the fathers back to their children".

It's a good question...Make sense?


I'm coming off harder-core than I am on the issue because I cannot seem to get people to admit that what "we" are doing now is failing and it's frustrating.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I'm coming off harder-core than I am on the issue because I cannot seem to get people to admit that what "we" are doing now is failing and it's frustrating.



And that is what I'm trying to show.  You're like Ronnie.  First post is "its not Biblical."  But...by the end...well...it's not not Biblical, we just need to be discerning.

I understand...if we just said we need to be discerning when it comes to music, clothing, hair length, youth ministry, pastors etc etc....we'd have no debate


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

The current model is very much un-biblical....and it shows.  It's deeper than just discernment.  It's a systematic turning away from the biblical model because it's not "culturally relevant" and it "won't reach kids these days" and "parents just won't do it".


The title of the thread was meant for shock value to get people to think.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> The current model is very much un-biblical....and it shows.  It's deeper than just discernment.  It's a systematic turning away from the biblical model because it's not "culturally relevant" and it "won't reach kids these days" and "parents just won't do it".
> 
> 
> The title of the thread was meant for shock value to get people to think.



Is your church's model unBiblical?

I guess I'm still wondering how you can support/go to a church that you feel is unBiblical.

If it is a preference deal, then I can see over looking it.  But if it is a Biblical issue, I don't see how you can overlook it.

And just for everyones info, no, I'm not trying to get you to change churches.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

We have been part of that body for over a decade.  As I'm growing I'm realizing that there are things that I think need to change.  

The value of the relationships, the quality of the teaching and discipleship and the fact that I feel strongly that the elders are godly men cause me to stay.  

I am working to change those things that I think need to change.  Having grown up a PK, though, I've seen people who disagree with something try to change it in the WRONG way.

The elders are the leaders.  I trust them to lead.  If I'm honest, yes, I think that the model we follow is un-biblical for youth....and our record shows it.  I don't know the numbers, but I'd say we're on par with the stats.  Probably 2/3-3/4 leave the faith after high-school.  I can think of one kid who is a straight up atheist now and many many who have just fallen off the face of the earth or left the faith altogether.  We have a different youth guy than we did for the first few years and I don't know that he has much of a track record because we don't have a bunch of highschool aged kids in our church (but we are absolutely OVER-RUN with babies and elementary age).  So we shall see.  He's much more inclined to disciple than his predecessor.  But he's not nearly as relational with the kids either.

At this point, I think the elders consider it a preference deal.  But they are open to listening to us and so we continue to discuss it.

There is no perfect church.  We've discussed that many times on here.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 2, 2011)

I think one of the things the 80% - 20% shows is how fragile committment to the church is.
A rather large percent of parents aren't committed to the church in a way Christ expected.  That percentage shows itself in our children.
Even if you're a Christian parent with a good example, if you aren't instilling a sense of holiness, faith, and growth in your children your children have a good chance of being impacted by the weak, unfaithful of the church.

If 30 percent of the young people have become a part of the youth program only for the fun and recreation, couldn't they ultimately have a negative impact on all the others? When the Christian teenage sees all her Junior college peers dumping church they might be inclined to do the same.

The family is so important in this.

I have a feeling that many churches depend on the youth programs to help increase their adult involvement in the church.
If it could be the other way around, reaching the parents first, and the parents brings the children to church, things might be different in all this.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 2, 2011)

That's a great post Ronnie.  Well said.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> That's a great post Ronnie.  Well said.



x2.

Most VBS programs are based on that model.

Hey...drop your kids off for a week of free daycare...then come on friday to see how much fun they are having and you can do this every Sunday morning and Wednesday nigh.



And Huntin....I know you value the relationships at your church and again...I'm not trying to get you to think your going to the wrong church.  Just trying to see where you draw the line with your own church's program and how it affects what you think about the issue.  I appreciate and value the relationships I have with folks from your church as well.


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## gtparts (Aug 2, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> It IS sad.  You're right.  And yes, that IS my concern as well.
> 
> 
> But....
> ...



Can't really say. How many of that 80% come back in crisis and finally get their relationship with God back on solid ground? And how many were driven away before they even began to mature in Christ? Remember the parable of the seed? We can read it once and the "seed" is the Gospel planted in the hearts of men. We can read it again and consider the "seed" as those exposed to the Gospel and where they find church "soil" to set forth roots. The outcome is that all will not persevere in faith. Jesus fed 5000 twice, give or take and preached the kingdom of God both times. Were all repentant and did they all proclaim Jesus as Messiah? 

Would you blame the Holy Spirit for not bringing about real transformation in the lives of all the youth who hear the Word? I certainly wouldn't! Then whose work is it that saves the souls of men? We are given the task of preaching the Gospel in truth. We have the responsibility of teaching and training those who pursue God with all their hearts..... but we are not charged with forcing sanctification upon the unwilling. No matter what we do, God understands that some will choose the world, even after hearing the Good News. Insert the story of the rich, young ruler here. Is it 80%? I don't know, but I trust that whom God purposes to save, they will be saved. In the mean while, I'll just keep trying to please God.

Those 80% folks can still be found, may yet be saved. That is a different calling than YM and it should not be neglected either.


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## tmiller (Aug 2, 2011)

Several men in our church met today to discuss this issue. We debated the issue through email last week and decided we would meet to discuss it more. The demographic was as follows; The pastor, 4 younger dads with small children, 2 older dads with youth age children, 1 older gentleman and one newlywed. The discusion went well and we all agreed that changes should be made within our church but that youth group did not need to be abolished. The changes are we as a church need to do a better job training the parents in our church how to teach there children and how to start a family worship time. The parents that drop there kids off or are not involved we need to reach out to them and evangelize them. The dad's need to be held accountable to teach and train there children on a daily and weekly basis. The children and youth leaders need to understand that they are not there to usurp the authority of the parents but to walk alongside them, partnering with them to train the children(which  I think they are already doing a pretty good job at.) I think that if you say that the biblical model is not relevant to today's culture than you are denying the authority and sufficiency of scripture, and you are in a dangerous place. I think we always need to be introspective and make sure everything we do is in alignment with scripture. And if it is not than we need to change.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 2, 2011)

tmiller said:


> Several men in our church met today to discuss this issue. We debated the issue through email last week and decided we would meet to discuss it more. The demographic was as follows; The pastor, 4 younger dads with small children, 2 older dads with youth age children, 1 older gentleman and one newlywed. The discusion went well and we all agreed that changes should be made within our church but that youth group did not need to be abolished. The changes are we as a church need to do a better job training the parents in our church how to teach there children and how to start a family worship time. The parents that drop there kids off or are not involved we need to reach out to them and evangelize them. The dad's need to be held accountable to teach and train there children on a daily and weekly basis. The children and youth leaders need to understand that they are not there to usurp the authority of the parents but to walk alongside them, partnering with them to train the children(which  I think they are already doing a pretty good job at.) I think that if you say that the biblical model is not relevant to today's culture than you are denying the authority and sufficiency of scripture, and you are in a dangerous place. I think we always need to be introspective and make sure everything we do is in alignment with scripture. And if it is not than we need to change.



That all sounds very positive to me.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 2, 2011)

Many years ago I served as a youth minister.

In those days, in the seventies, our church kids did not even try out for cheerleading and baseball and football because they and their parents knew it would interfer with church stuff.  Sunday nights after service, all the churches in the area were involved in an "area wide youth devotion".  We took turns going to each others church for a devotional, fun stuff, and refreshments.
One things we did not use,,,,,,, church bus.  Parents had to help in getting the kids there and getting them back home.  So the parents rotated carrying the kids to different places and staying for the devotional. 
The parents prepared refreshments.
The parents were a part of the devotionals.

Things are different now.
Patents encourage their kids to place school activities ahead of church activities.
They say:  "They only going to be in high school once."


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## Huntinfool (Aug 3, 2011)

tmiller said:


> Several men in our church met today to discuss this issue. We debated the issue through email last week and decided we would meet to discuss it more. The demographic was as follows; The pastor, 4 younger dads with small children, 2 older dads with youth age children, 1 older gentleman and one newlywed. The discusion went well and we all agreed that changes should be made within our church but that youth group did not need to be abolished. The changes are we as a church need to do a better job training the parents in our church how to teach there children and how to start a family worship time. The parents that drop there kids off or are not involved we need to reach out to them and evangelize them. The dad's need to be held accountable to teach and train there children on a daily and weekly basis. The children and youth leaders need to understand that they are not there to usurp the authority of the parents but to walk alongside them, partnering with them to train the children(which  I think they are already doing a pretty good job at.) I think that if you say that the biblical model is not relevant to today's culture than you are denying the authority and sufficiency of scripture, and you are in a dangerous place. I think we always need to be introspective and make sure everything we do is in alignment with scripture. And if it is not than we need to change.



Just curious since you're in Covington....which church? 

Sounds like you guys have very good leadership and strong men in the church.


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## Crubear (Aug 3, 2011)

First, that wasn't a dig at your church, it should have been our church - fingers got ahead of the eyes.

Childrens/Youth ministry is Biblical though - Jesus told the Apostles to let the children come to him. 

And yes, the Church in America needs to change the way it works and the way it thinks. Less judgemental and more evangelical


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## Huntinfool (Aug 3, 2011)

> Childrens/Youth ministry is Biblical though - Jesus told the Apostles to let the children come to him.



....and the Bible tells us that it's the father's job to make sure that happens.  Far too often, we push that responsibility off onto a ministry leader.  That is not a justification for children's ministry.  It's a mandate to bring children to Christ and the Bible tells us how to most effectively do that.  

Nobody is saying that we shouldn't encourage children to come to Christ.  The point is that the most biblically effective way to do that is via parents.  Ministries should support that and not usurp it.  If yours aren't doing that, I applaud that.  But way way too many are whether intentionally or not and the numbers show it.



What about this?



> The thing is...what happens after they leave for college or wherever they go if the "youth leader" has been their discipler? What happens? Who are they going to talk to if parents have not been actively involved in the spiritual training of their children? Is the youth guy going to be in their lives when they are 25? Parents will...


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## rjcruiser (Aug 3, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> What about this?



Then maybe the problem isn't youth ministry...it's the college/career's ministry.

How many church's have on-campus Bible Studies or college age Bible Studies?

Also, I think that Christian colleges should be looked at in greater depth than just picking a big school that is cheap and closer to home.  Parents need to make sure that if/when a child goes off to college, they find a local church body to attend and stay plugged in.  It is hard to find a local church....but very important.


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## thedeacon (Aug 3, 2011)

Is song books biblical, or a P.A. system, what about a janitor or song leader, check out the usher.

I tell you what is biblical, IT,S COTTONPICKEN COMMON SENSE.

If I could find a Church that did everything right they probably wouldn't have me as a member.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 3, 2011)

thedeacon said:


> Is song books biblical, or a P.A. system, what about a janitor or song leader, check out the usher.
> 
> I tell you what is biblical, IT,S COTTONPICKEN COMMON SENSE.
> 
> If I could find a Church that did everything right they probably wouldn't have me as a member.





What did the point of this conversation sound like as it whizzed past you?



When there is a clear mandate in scripture and we don't follow it, there is an issue.  Deacon...there is not a clear mandate on the PA system or song books (from what I can tell).  So, I think you're good to keep using them.  Song leader?  Well that's entirely biblical.  Lots of Psalms written to the song leader.  So you're probably good there as well.


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## Madman (Aug 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> 80% of teens abandon the faith by the time they reach college.  Almost all were discipled in youth ministry and not in the home.  If it were biblical, 80% would not be abandoning the faith.
> 
> Parents are charged with discipleship of their children and only parents.
> 
> ...







Another great read for parents is "Already Gone"  Ken Ham co-authored it.

He claims studies show children are "already gone" my middle shool.


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## gtparts (Aug 4, 2011)

This is my last contribution to this thread. It has become rather wearying to get anyone to explain how YM is the bad guy here. 
If the church had not taken on this aspect of ministry (YM), where would the children of lost people ever receive any real exposure to the life found in Christ? And what of the children of weak or immature Christians? 

HF has identified a real problem, the retention of those youth placed in the care of our churches. 

Can we force our way into the lives of kids that don't belong to us? Can we force them to pay attention and heed the Gospel message? Can we force the parents (both (1) unsaved and (2) saved, but not equipped or insufficiently committed to bring up their kids in the admonition of the Lord) to do the job that God intended for them? 

And, when we do encounter those kids or our kids befriend those kids, does the church just throw up their hands and say "YM is unbiblical, so they will have to come on our terms. We won't extend ourselves beyond the designated church service and Sunday School."?

If YM is "broken" in your church, find out what God would have you do to fix it! Quit wringing your hands and being critical!

Waiting for parents to "do right by their children according to Scripture" is to let many young people miss an opportunity to know Jesus as their personal savior.... and miss heaven.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

It's not "youth ministry or nothing".  That is where you're missing the boat.

Children of lost people are to be discipled as well if they choose to be part of the body outside of their parents.

Whether via YM or via actual discipleship from mature believers in the body, it will be eternally difficult to overcome the influence of those ungodly parents.  But it can be done.

Which would you say will be more effective?  A youth group where they are one in a sea of still maturing believers or discipleship alongside a mature believer and his/her children?  

Which do you think will have a more lasting impact?  Egg-toss with a devotion or watching a mature believer disciple his own children...showing them what a godly home looks like and how different it is than the one they live in?

I'm giving extreme examples and realize that not all YM are so shallow.  But the reality is that in YM they are in the midst of a bunch of still very young believers (and that's a stretch for the most part) are are wholly influenced by each other and are all very volatile in their behavior and beliefs.  Is it best for them to be influenced by each other or by already mature believers within the church who will take a vested interest in their discipleship...one-on-one?

Weak or immature Christians?  DISCIPLE THEM!!!  Show them the way they should go.  Grow them up in the faith.  Make them mature.  If they are immature, then surely they have a desire to grow.  That's the responsibility of the leaders of the church and the mature members.  Disciple them...and they will disciple their kids.




> Waiting for parents to "do right by their children according to Scripture" is to let many young people miss an opportunity to know Jesus as their personal savior.... and miss heaven.



If that happens, then it falls on the leadership of the church and they are failing to lead the people they are charged to lead...and they will be held accountable for it.

Once again, it sounds like the logic is that what is prescribed is thought to just not be applicable or practical in today's society.  I guess we just disagree on that.

I'm not trying to make YM the "bad guy".  I've said it many times.  The ministry itself is not bad.  The fact that it is, most times, seen as the primary discipleship influence in children's lives is wholly unbiblical.

Your posts are proving that you feel that YM is the only dicipling influence in many kids' lives and you don't think parents either can or will take that responsibility back.  I would venture to say that MOST kids in a youth group DO have parents who attend that church.  If 80% of them are leaving, then the parents and leadership are failing on a massive level.  

We deal with the kids that don't have attending parents as they come in.  Sure...let them go to YM.  No problem.  But don't leaving them hanging out there as if that is sufficient to truly disciple them.  It is not...the numbers that are leaving prove it every day.  There is no way to counter that argument.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 4, 2011)

Here's how the YM was set up at the church I grew up at and think it was/is a great model.  Now...I'll say, the church I grew up at had tons of resources (ie godly staff/volunteers) and I think that made a big difference.

Had YM meet during the sunday school hour.  Then, they would go to the main service as well.  The YM was split into smaller groups called discipleship groups based on the school/location the kids went to.  They were also segregated for males/females.  Usually 5-10 kids per group.  On top of meeting Sunday Mornings...had Wednesday night meeting along with once a week meeting with your Discipleship group.  The D group meetings were like any other BibleStudy...met in the home of one of the kids and had some fellowship along with deeper study into either a book or the Bible.

We had the winter/summer camps as well.  Always had great Biblically sound preaching...but it was more on the level of Jr/Sr High students.  It wasn't topical preaching...but was expository preaching....sure the messages were tailored towards the youth, but dificult passages or doctrinal issues were taught as they arose.

Parents could be on staff if they so desired.  They could have the small group meet at their home if they so desired.  The kids could sit with their parents in the main worship service if they so desired.  The interaction was encouraged between the discipleship group leader and the kids/parents.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

Sounds like a pretty good example of YM existing and yet following the correct model.

Now watch all the "well yeah....that's how we do it too" posts start showing up.

Pretty safe bet that everybody's church follows the same model.  Want in on that action?


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## rjcruiser (Aug 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Sounds like a pretty good example of YM existing and yet following the correct model.
> 
> Now watch all the "well yeah....that's how we do it too" posts start showing up.
> 
> Pretty safe bet that everybody's church follows the same model.  Want in on that action?





Well...the church I am currently a part of doesn't follow that model 

We don't have any Jr. High or High schoolers currently attending.

I will say, I was extremely blessed to go to the church I did for the first 23 years of my life.  The last 8 have been a roller coaster...but I will say, I've learned a ton through it and that is what it is all about.


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## gtparts (Aug 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Children of lost people are to be discipled as well if they choose to be part of the body outside of their parents.
> 
> And where do most preteens and teens find the opportunity to learn about Jesus initially? I can tell you....YM. If the leadership of the church and IF the voluntary help of lay leaders and committed parents fulfill their God-given responsibility. And THAT is the real issue, not that YM is bad. It needs to be tweaked, if the church will do it!
> 
> ...



Thought that last post was the last. Sorry.

Can't fairly let 40 years of dealing with YM, the people and programs, take a hit unchallenged. It's too important to reaching the kids!
Treat the disease, and ease the symptoms when possible.


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## Crubear (Aug 4, 2011)

Ten years ago I was told that in households where the mother takes the kids to church the probability that the kid will continue with it was about 70%. If the dad goes this rose to 92%.

I don't disagree with your numbers or reasoning.

Some parents at the church I attend started a program on Friday night where all they did was open the doors and invite the middle and high schoolers. No preaching, no structure, just a safe place to hang out and some food. In just a couple months this grew to almost 200 kids each week.

The membership became concerned that there wasn't any Biblical teaching or discipleship going on (a valid concern), so we prayed about it and God answered by providing the funding to hire a youth minister who brought structure and direction. The kids who stayed (lost about 1/3) now call this Friday night get together their church.

How many will stay in church after graduating High School? Who knows? Are we following the Biblical model? No.

So, should we stop? No.

If you don't like the way it's going then do something about it.
1) Pray and ask for direction and strength
2) Then do what God tells you to do

It was one mom who started working to establish the program here, and she lead a busy life already. Since you feel this strongly it appears to me that God's decided that you're the somebody everyone else waits for to do something. Answer the call.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

> Are we following the Biblical model? No.
> 
> So, should we stop? No.




Did you read this when you posted it?  Just curious.



.


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## Crubear (Aug 4, 2011)

The Bible has nothing in it about opening up a gymnasium, turning on the lighs and air conditioning, and inviting 200+ kids to come in it. It doesn't describe this type of ministry in any way, shape or form. Nor does it describe the type of church I attend.

It also doesn't forbid it.

I find it interesting that you glom onto that comment and disregard the challenge. 

Quit complaining and do something positive, constructive, and Biblical


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

> Doesn't that depend on the willing participation of the parents?



If they are discipled into deep relationship with Christ, they WILL be willing participants.  One leads to the other...always.



> The youth minister(s) have the best shot at one-on-one.



...80%....I'm just sayin'.  Something doesn't smell right when you put that next to your claim.



> Fix the perception of parents, but quit taking shots at those who work hard to be a safety net for kids that have parents that fail to do their job. I have never seen a YM that was established to supplant parents or absolve them of responsibility.



I have not said one thing negative about youth leaders or youth ministers.  They are trying their best to minister to a great need in the church...they're just doing it the wrong way.

There's not a single youth ministry whose GOAL is to supplant parents...it just happens and nearly all of them end up doing it.  It's the nature of the way they are set up.  Parent drops kid off...youth minister meets with kid outside of parental influence every time they meet.



> The track record on parenting in a biblical manner is clear. It ain't happening enough!!!! There is your 80% hitting the exits!



You're EXACTLY right!  It IS the parents' fault.  My point is that the churches' "solution" to that problem is youth ministry and NOT equipping and encouraging those same parents to disciple their kids.

You have to admit that.  The churches' answer should be to work to bring parents in line with scripture.  But instead, the solution that is being use is "well, the parents just won't do it...so we'll have to".  In other words, "don't try this at home...we're professionals".


I get it.  I understand that you have a deep connection with these ministries and so you don't like to hear that they may be missing the boat.  But, GT...they are.  They are missing the boat.  It's not the youth minister's fault.  It's not the youth ministry's fault.  It's the churches' fault for trying to get around where the responsibility clearly lies.

Perhaps we're looking at the coin from two different sides.  I don't know.  I just see an unwillingness in churches to see what's going on.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

Crubear said:


> The Bible has nothing in it about opening up a gymnasium, turning on the lighs and air conditioning, and inviting 200+ kids to come in it. It doesn't describe this type of ministry in any way, shape or form. Nor does it describe the type of church I attend.
> 
> It also doesn't forbid it.
> 
> ...



I posted this earlier.  The bible doesn't forbid A/C or a Gym.  You're right. Since there is no model for A/C, I think you're fine to use it.  

But when there is a clear model in scripture regarding an issue we are expected to follow it.  There is a clear model of how we are to disciple children.  So, we should probably heed that advice...right?

Who says I'm not doing anything?  I started this thread.  I'm talking to people about it.  I posted earlier that there is a group of men in our church who feel strongly on the issue of discipleship in the home and we are working to change the culture in our church.  We are working to turn the hearts of fathers back to their children.






You're really using the "well the Bible doesn't expressly forbid it" argument?  Really?


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## Crubear (Aug 4, 2011)

I think we're reaching the key point here from two different directions. I agree that the church needs to strenuously teach parents the Biblical foundations and requirements of marriage, child raising, and finances <-- my driven Biblical burr (debt is not a Biblical principle).

99% of the parents that drop their kids off every Friday night don't attend any church and can't be taught, but we're working on them through their kids.

(Post edit, God is working on them through their kids)


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

99% huh?


Crubear...they can be taught.  Asking children to disciple their parents...I hope it works.


I do like your biblical principles on debt.  If only we were so staunch on others.


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## rjcruiser (Aug 4, 2011)

Crubear said:


> so we prayed about it and God answered by providing the funding to hire a youth minister who brought structure and direction. The kids who stayed (lost about 1/3) now call this Friday night get together their church.
> 
> How many will stay in church after graduating High School? Who knows? Are we following the Biblical model? No.
> 
> So, should we stop? No.



If they are being taught the Word of God, why do you say the model is not Biblical?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

I have an answer to that....but I'll leave it alone as I think these guys are tiring of the whole thing.


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## gtparts (Aug 4, 2011)

HF, if what you say all the way down this thread is true, to one extent or another, the solution is not in YM, but adult ministry. 

Figure out what gets adults into church, get them to give up, sleeping in on Sundays, going to the, races, the lake or the pro football game, or just vegetating on the couch all day. Perhaps a great personal crisis would do it, if you can arrange it. Now, I understand church attendance won't save anybody. "Being the church He called us to be" is still the only method endorsed by our Father. Every lost person, young and old, needs Jesus, but many do not want Him. If they don't see their terminal illness for what it is, they won't seek a physician.

Do those things that work to get parents to change and the youth problem will take care of itself. Just quit pointing your finger at YM not being any more effective than it is. YM only has those kids' attention for a couple of hours a week at most; the world has them the rest of the time and most of the parents do not have a clue, nor do they care until it gets to be a problem for them.  That is the reality.

When you have done all you can to get parents to follow the biblical model, compare that success rate to most youth ministries. Inviting and retaining 20% of adults may be even more difficult.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 4, 2011)

> HF, if what you say all the way down this thread is true, to one extent or another, the solution is not in YM, but adult ministry.



To a great extent....yes....I think you're right.

GT, I'm just a big believer that if you follow biblical models, they will work despite the feeling of defeat that current practice and the world would tell us.

If godly people disciple other godly people and they disciple their kids...20% in ALL categories should be a no brainer.  Actually 100% should be closer to the actual.

I know...it's not possible.  I just don't agree.  "For the Bible tells me so..", right?

In practice, it's painful I'm sure.  Call me an idealist I guess.

No...it's not the YM's fault.  I'm not saying it is.  I think though, that because we've said that YM is the only answer we have, we've done our kids and injustice.  It's as if YM is the option because parents won't do it.  Well....get them to do it dangit!


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## gtparts (Aug 4, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> To a great extent....yes....I think you're right.
> 
> GT, I'm just a big believer that if you follow biblical models, they will work despite the feeling of defeat that current practice and the world would tell us.
> 
> ...



Hold a gun to their heads???  
Make them?? Really??

When parents can't or won't, YM is more than an option. It is an imperative.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 5, 2011)

Hold a gun to their heads?  Of course!  Isn't that what the Bible tells us?

Tell me exactly where in my post you read the word "make".  What I posted was that if you disciple parents and grow them in their faith, they WILL disciple their children.  It's that "can't help but tell other people" thing that we all talk about.

Parents CAN....and they WILL if they are sought out and discipled themselves.

Don't want to go to the trouble of giving life to the church by doing that because it feels difficult, uncomfortable or not doable?  Yeh...the alternative is just send them to YM I suppose.  That way at least the kids get something and then we'll send immature children home to disciple their parents.

That sounds like an awesome plan.  Let me know how that works out.  OH WAIT!  We already know how that works out....don't we? 

I think your post should have read like this:



> When believers refuse to equip parents and so they can't or won't, YM is the only alternative.




_And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

(Malachi 4:6 ESV)_


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## gtparts (Aug 5, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Well....get them to do it dangit!



The "gun" thing was just to find out what you meant by the above quote from your post.

Reality is that some adults will sit through teaching only to miss the simple fact that teaching/learning is useless, if not applied or specifically, that the lesson is for them.... personally. (Seems like James covered this some time back.) 
There always seem to be hearers of the Word, who are not doers of the Word.
To that I say, 


> ....get them to do it dangit!


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## Ronnie T (Aug 5, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> To a great extent....yes....I think you're right.
> 
> GT, I'm just a big believer that if you follow biblical models, they will work despite the feeling of defeat that current practice and the world would tell us.
> 
> ...



If all the people in Christ's church in modern day American society would be like you and live by an idealistic attitude towards all things of God,  we would be an uncontrollable influence on society.
Politicians would be looking to us for insight.  Public schools would be using the church model for training and teaching it's students.

But it just not that way.  Individual needs to continue urging parents to become stronger influences on their children.  As that occurred, youth programs could become an enjoyable, Christian social outlet for our young people, rather than an attempt to minister the gospel to Children who's parents have been allowed to "slide".


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## Huntinfool (Aug 5, 2011)

Ronnie,

That's a great post my man.  You're exactly right.  You probably put it better in that post than I have in my 100!


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