# God isJesus, Jesus is God



## marketgunner (Jul 19, 2015)

This is one of my favorite verses to those who have trouble with the deity of Jesus. It can be presented somewhat backwards from what is usually defended , Jesus as 100%man could not be 100% God.

Zech 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn

This is God speaking concerning the Crucifixion and events in Jerusalem at that future time.  The house of David refers to the Jews but notice the inhabitants of Jerusalem are listed separately. The Romans held power in Jerusalem at the future time. But also notice the words of God "they look upon me whom they have pierced." God was saying He was pierced. Next notice the change about death. They will mourn for Jesus. The human Jesus died. God didn't die but the man died and was mourned. So those who reject Jesus as God and say Jesus never claimed to be God, have to accept it here that God is saying He was on the Cross and His side was pierced.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

Zechariah is a wonderful look this future event of the Crucifixion and other future events as when Israel as a nation realizes their mistake about Jesus and accepts Him  as Messiah


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## hobbs27 (Jul 19, 2015)

I've spent some time working on some JW's over the past couple of months on a theological site. This is the story I was able to put together that really got their goat, since they believe Jesus was an angel and not God.

Peter rebuked cornelius for worshipping him for he was just a man.

Acts 10:25 And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him.

26 But Peter took him up, saying, Stand up; I myself also am a man.


Then the Angel rebukes John for worshipping him and tells him to worship God 

Revelation 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said to me, See you do it not: I am your fellow servant, and of your brothers that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


But when John fell at the feet of Jesus he was not rebuked but comforted.

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Jesus is clearly God and worthy of worship!


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## marketgunner (Jul 19, 2015)

I used to go round and round with them quoting all the verses you and  I accept where Jesus claimed to be God and they would counter a verse showing Jesus as a man , which is also true and very important too.  I find Zech 12:10 is very good at explaining the Crucifixion from God's point of view long before Jesus death.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 19, 2015)

Hebrews 11:24-26King James Version (KJV)

24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

----------------------

This is what the writer of Hebrews says about Moses and Christ.  I do a double take when I read verses like this.

If one reads Paul with attention to Paul's view of who Jesus is, one can find several verses similar to this.  Paul's view( that Jesus is God) is understated for obvious  reasons--- according  to my understanding. 

It is my experience  that one cannot use the bible against the views of those who with the bible know themselves " In The Truth". This is the will of man contending with itself.

 They will not hear the sounds of the ancient faith said in Christ, Christ being neither the veil of Him and not as a spirit their Creator. And I believe they have it right in this as it concerns them and that so in Christ they are not, and cannot be, born again. By their spiritual fruits and their reading of scripture,-- I account them carnal yet--having no ears-- yet having mouths genuine what they deem of importance regards God and his purpose for all. Yet what man can speak what he hears only by half, from the man he ministers to and claim to minister to that man who he does not and is not disposed and thought not to hear fully?,  and--- perhaps with Johovah it is the same?

It must be the work of Christ that will cure their ears, not a match of scriptures in my view. Christ will most likely need to muddy his finger twice--to cure an ear for some who are still to to be called out as if of Egypte.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 19, 2015)

I just use their bible, John 1:1.

it says 

In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the Word was a God.

They readily admit that the Word = Jesus.

My question to them is this...

Was He a true god, or a false god?

They can't say he was a true god, because there is only one true god, and they can't say he was a false god, because they believe him to be a minor god.  

at that point, I tell them it sounds to me like one of two things,

1 - either there are 2 true gods

or 

2 -  Jesus is God. 


most of them walk away at this point in the conversation, if they stay this long.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 19, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> This is one of my favorite verses to those who have trouble with the deity of Jesus. It can be presented somewhat backwards from what is usually defended , Jesus as 100%man could not be 100% God.
> 
> Zech 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn
> 
> ...



Wouldn't this prove the Oneness of God instead of a Trinity? God looking into the future when he incarnates into Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I just use their bible, John 1:1.
> 
> it says
> 
> ...



Were we as individuals with God from the beginning in his Word? If so are we Gods? In Word of God and with God, what makes us different from Jesus?
In other words each of us were eternal but only in God's word or mind. Our future beings/births were already in God's mind/plan but we ourselves are not eternal.
The Word was God and with God but the Word was the future event that hadn't happened yet.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> This is one of my favorite verses to those who have trouble with the deity of Jesus. It can be presented somewhat backwards from what is usually defended , Jesus as 100%man could not be 100% God.
> 
> Zech 12:10 â€œI will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn
> 
> ...


Here is the greek you are basing this "me" on 

413 [e]	â€™ê-lay	×�Öµ×œÖ·Ö–×™

â—„ 413. el â–º
Strong's Concordance
el: to, into, towards
Original Word: ×�Ö¶×œ
Part of Speech: Preposition
Transliteration: el
Phonetic Spelling: (ale)
Short Definition: against
NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
a prim. particle
Definition
to, into, towards
NASB Translation
about (12), above (1), according (4), addition (2), adjacent* (1), after (4), after* (1), against (162), along (1), along* (1), among (3), among* (1), because (5), before (11), before* (4), behind* (2), beside (3), beside* (3), between* (2), carried (1), concerning (31), corresponding* (1), defied* (1), everywhere* (1), faced (1), facing* (3), far (1), greatly* (1), inside* (1), next (1), next* (1), nor (1), onto (1), opposite (1), opposite* (2), outside* (12), over (23), recalls* (1), regard (2), regarding (1), straight* (3), through (1), together* (2), toward *(75), toward* *(2), visit* (1), where (1), where* (2), wherever* (4), whom* (1), within (1).


Notice the words most translated, "Toward, About, concerning" They will look toward the one they have pierced is the better translation. The me can be justified by looking at other places where it was used, but it is merely a translation choice. The absense of "me" changes the verse to harmony or continuity with the remainder of scriptures


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I've spent some time working on some JW's over the past couple of months on a theological site. This is the story I was able to put together that really got their goat, since they believe Jesus was an angel and not God.
> 
> Peter rebuked cornelius for worshipping him for he was just a man.
> 
> ...


 Wonder why John had to be  told this one time by the angel..... and then fell down and was told by the angel a second time. John Rev 19;10 and again 22;9


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jul 20, 2015)

In John 20:29 Thomas addresses Jesus as "the God".   Ho Theos in the greek.    

the actual greek reads "The Lord of me and the God of me".

Jesus did not deny it.    Jesus also calls Himself the "I AM".   I believe JW's translation changes that to "I have been".   their reasoning is that it "is understood".


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Wonder why John had to be told this one time by the angel..... and then fell down and was told by the angel a second time. John Rev 19;10 and again 22;9


 
Just so we would have yet another example, that Christ is God and not an Angel.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were we as individuals with God from the beginning in his Word? If so are we Gods? In Word of God and with God, what makes us different from Jesus?
> In other words each of us were eternal but only in God's word or mind. Our future beings/births were already in God's mind/plan but we ourselves are not eternal.
> The Word was God and with God but the Word was the future event that hadn't happened yet.


Hadn't happened yet. That is the "with" god. In other words God had "withheld" it until times reached fulfillment.



 And "the word was God".... God is what he does. He creates, he speaks things into existence.  How else would one describe a Spirit since God is Spirit. 


"And the word became flesh" That which was spoken from the beginning, was prophesied, was anticipated, came to pass. I don't know why they don't see it so simple as we do


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hadn't happened yet. That is the "with" god. In other words God had "withheld" it until times reached fulfillment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is how Oneness believers look at Jesus too. He wasn't with God except as the Word. He didn't become God until God incarnated into Jesus. They believe that God became Jesus and is now Jesus. When we get to Heaven we'll only see God as Jesus.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Here is the greek you are basing this "me" on
> 
> 413 [e]    ’ê-lay    ×�Öµ×œÖ·Ö–×™
> 
> ...


 
 YLT uses "Unto", notice where the comma is, it doesnt matter if it is toward, or unto, or to{ Me whom they pierced} means God whom they pierced. I truly love this YLT version it answers so many questions, not perfect but one of the best.

And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Just so we would have yet another example, that Christ is God and not an Angel.


Rev is a mixed bag of speakers. An angel, John and Jesus. A very strong case can be made that the angel is Jesus..... whom said, do not worship me, I am a fellow servant. Red letter editions are great. 22;7 is red, 8-11 are the angel saying do not worship me and 12-16 are red letter again. John turned around to see the voice who was speaking to him....it was Jesus 1;12
 4;1 Come up here and I will show you, [red letter]


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Rev is a mixed bag of speakers. An angel, John and Jesus. A very strong case can be made that the angel is Jesus..... whom said, do not worship me, I am a fellow servant. Red letter editions are great. 22;7 is red, 8-11 are the angel saying do not worship me and 12-16 are red letter again. John turned around to see the voice who was speaking to him....it was Jesus 1;12
> 4;1 Come up here and I will show you, [red letter]


 
 Red letter editions are ok for beginners but I have found many mistakes in them also.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> YLT uses "Unto", notice where the comma is, it doesnt matter if it is toward, or unto, or to{ Me whom they pierced} means God whom they pierced. I truly love this YLT version it answers so many questions, not perfect but one of the best.
> 
> And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.


The argument is justification for the use of "me"


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Red letter editions are ok for beginners but I have found many mistakes in them also.


Agree, and I concede that the argument that the angel can be Jesus can not be won, but the case is just as strong as the opposite


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> The argument is justification for the use of "me"


 
 I know, but here's what I get on the word in Hebrew, and it's not a word I can find in my strongs probably because it's a small common used word.

<TABLE class=maintext border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=5 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=strongsnt vAlign=top>413 [e]</TD><TD class=translit vAlign=top>’ê-lay</TD><TD class=hebrew2 vAlign=top>×�Öµ×œÖ·Ö–×™</TD><TD class=eng vAlign=top>on me</TD><TD class=CensoredCensoredCensored vAlign=top>Prep</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wouldn't this prove the Oneness of God instead of a Trinity? God looking into the future when he incarnates into Jesus.



THE Trinity is ONE as well as three


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Here is the greek you are basing this "me" on
> 
> 413 [e]	’ê-lay	×�Öµ×œÖ·Ö–×™
> 
> ...



It is not Greek at all,  It is Hebrew,  look at Hebrew to English.  You do not need Greek in this at all.

It "me" is in the Hebrew  though and was considered Messianic until the last hundred years..

Look at Chabad .org to see how the Hebrew is written.

I used to know the Hebrew part of the Letter that shoes the "pronoun"  but I have forgotten now


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> THE Trinity is ONE as well as three



Oneness is always One in all three forms. Just not all three forms at the same time.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

If that passage means God's side was pierced then it can't be literal as God is a Spirit. Even if Jesus is God it was the man's side that was pierced. Was the God Jesus crucified as well as pierced or was God pierced as well as God crucified. After the piercing it switches to Him for the mourning. Mourning for death.


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

The one who was pierced was looked upon , the image of the invisible God, but God cannot die. Mourning was for the man. Mourning for the one who dies, Jesus the man. God the Son paid the price of sin by accepting our sin and being separated from the Godhead. Sin causes separation from a Holy God. For the short time, the Godhead was show to be separable.
Without redemption, we are eternally separated from God.


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Oneness is always One in all three forms. Just not all three forms at the same time.



Three ( or 2  in this verse)forms in one as well,  John 1:1 with God and the Word


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> God the Son paid the price of sin by accepting our sin and being separated from the Godhead. Sin causes separation from a Holy God. For the short time, the Godhead was show to be separable.
> Without redemption, we are eternally separated from God.


 
 You got this figured out and still a futurist.???..There's hope for you yet.   

 The spiritual not physical resurrection of the dead ones.

<SUP class=versenum>40 </SUP>There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
<SUP class=versenum>41 </SUP>There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
<SUP class=versenum>42 </SUP>So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
<SUP class=versenum>43 </SUP>It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
<SUP class=versenum>44 </SUP>It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

what do you mean by futurist?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

Did the Spirit of God ever leave the body of the man Jesus? Does the man Jesus have his own soul/spirit separate from God's spirit?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> what do you mean by futurist?


 
 You believe in a future return.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did the Spirit of God ever leave the body of the man Jesus? Does the man Jesus have his own soul/spirit separate from God's spirit?


 
I believe so , here:Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

Oneness believe Jesus is at the right hand of the Father is symbolic, that he is seated as the fullness of God bodily in Heaven.

Oneness believers don't believe Jesus was with God as a separate entity/spirit before being born but that he was actually God the Father. Jesus was actually in God's bosom. He was the Word. The Word "became" flesh later at a future event. 
That is why they don't believe God when using "us" means God & Jesus. It's not like God who is a spirit is talking to Jesus who is a spirit because they believe He is the same spirit.
It's the same way God knew me before I was born yet I'm not eternal. I was in God's word/mind. Like 1gr8bldr said, God created everything in six days.
God knowing that the human race would fall into sin, he foreordained the Plan of Salvation based on the birth, death, burial and resurrection of the son of God. God planned this glory for the son and loved the son before the foundation of the world. Jesus Christ was not actually born before the creation of the world, nor was He actually crucified at that time, but in the plan of God the atoning sacrifice of Christ was a foreordained, certain, event.


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did the Spirit of God ever leave the body of the man Jesus? Does the man Jesus have his own soul/spirit separate from God's spirit?



sure, "into thy hands I commend my spirit". Spirit was separated from the flesh. The resurrection of His flesh was after His Sinless Spirit was  presented as the payment for all sin.

God condemned us , God became us so we could share in the sacrifice, He was the payment. Only God could satisfy the requirement He set.

I  think Jesus's spirit/soul was God. God in the flesh.


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe so , here:Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?



That is not when His spirit left the body by when all Sin was on Him and for the first time fellowship was broken from thr God head as God who became the Son became Sin


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I believe so , here:Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?



If the Spirit of God could leave Jesus then at what point did the Holy Spirit enter Jesus? I do agree that the Holy Spirit left Jesus about the ninth hour. When Jesus said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me, the spirit of God was being lifted from that body.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> That is not when His spirit left the body by when all Sin was on Him and for the first time fellowship was broken from thr God head as God who became the Son became Sin



If the Spirit of God could leave Jesus then at what point did the Holy Spirit enter Jesus?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> That is not when His spirit left the body by when all Sin was on Him and for the first time fellowship was broken from thr God head as God who became the Son became Sin


 
 Well I don't have time to go through it tonight but maybe sometime I will and we can start in Genesis and I will show you how it is when the separation took place. Good night , ya'll.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> sure, "into thy hands I commend my spirit". Spirit was separated from the flesh. The resurrection of His flesh was after His Sinless Spirit was  presented as the payment for all sin.
> 
> God condemned us , God became us so we could share in the sacrifice, He was the payment. Only God could satisfy the requirement He set.
> 
> I  think Jesus's spirit/soul was God. God in the flesh.



How did the 100% man Jesus not have his own soul/spirit?
Who went to preach to souls in prison if not the soul of the man Jesus? Unless as the Oneness believe God became Jesus at his incarnation. That now Jesus is God and not at the right hand of his father with a different soul. If that's true then God went to preach to the souls in prison and God resurrected his own human body. But how is that possible if the Holy Spirit left Jesus? When did the Holy Spirit re-enter Jesus?


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> You believe in a future return.



not only a future return, I also believe in a constant appeal by God, Prompting by the Holy Spirit, circumstance placed to bring sinners to God.

A response is required.

Luk 7:32
They are like unto children sitting in the marketplace, and calling one to another, and saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned to you, and ye have not wept.

70AD return is a difficult path to defend,  English has punctuation, Greek does not. Translators have to guess the punctuation and add it in English.

let us try Aramaic, I found nothing helpful.

Greek interlinear not much.

I have heard it taught the generator refers to the blooming of the fig tree (Israel) and those alive to see it would see the return.

but why 70AD, it is not in the verses?


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## marketgunner (Jul 20, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did the 100% man Jesus not have his own soul/spirit?
> Who went to preach to souls in prison if not the soul of the man Jesus? Unless as the Oneness believe God became Jesus at his incarnation. That now Jesus is God and not at the right hand of his father with a different soul. If that's true then God went to preach to the souls in prison and God resurrected his own human body. But how is that possible if the Holy Spirit left Jesus? When did the Holy Spirit re-enter Jesus?



Are you saying Jesus's Spirit was the Holy Spirit?

I don't find that anywhere.  

Certainly God is Spirit and the Holy Spirit is God. Sin Jesus  is God in the Flesh. God the Son also came for a particular purpose.  I do not see the duplication of "Spirit" in Jesus as the Holy Spirit fills a believer. Remember Jesus was not a sinner and the relationship we had to have restored with God as a Christian was not broken with Jesus until the cross. 

The Holy Spirit was God's actions to reach the lost and lead the saved.  He has a particular purpose. 

God the Son had a particular purpose.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> not only a future return, I also believe in a constant appeal by God, Prompting by the Holy Spirit, circumstance placed to bring sinners to God.
> 
> A response is required.
> 
> ...



Instead of the Day of Pentecost?                                                                              I would agree Jesus is constantly returning but Hobbs is mostly talking about prophetic Bible events  that was about the destruction of Jerusalem instead of a future one time return with a bodily resurrection, rapture, Judgement, etc. Revelations as an example. Just the explanation of the Kingdom is better understood as being spiritual and already being here now today.

If we keep discussing how everything is spiritual, spiritual death, souls never dying, eternal life, etc., then why do we need a future 2nd coming and physical resurrection? If we are judged individually and spiritually when we die a physical death, then why the need for a future 2nd coming and future resurrection? Why not just keep everything spiritual at our physical death? Why have every soul/spirit return for a future event. This future event makes a very confusing and crooked line. If some of the biblical events and verses are describing the destruction of Jerusalem, then it is a lot less confusing.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Are you saying Jesus's Spirit was the Holy Spirit?
> 
> I don't find that anywhere.
> 
> ...



No, I'm not saying Jesus' spirit is the Holy Spirit but I thought that is what you said. You said Jesus' spirit is God's Spirit and that Jesus didn't have his own spirit. That the Spirit of God left Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> sure, "into thy hands I commend my spirit". Spirit was separated from the flesh. The resurrection of His flesh was after His Sinless Spirit was  presented as the payment for all sin.
> 
> God condemned us , God became us so we could share in the sacrifice, He was the payment. Only God could satisfy the requirement He set.
> 
> I  think Jesus's spirit/soul was God. God in the flesh.



I thought the sacrifice had to be a man instead of God?
When the Sinless Spirit of God/Jesus which you believe is God's spirit and not the spirit of the man part of Jesus, left the body of Jesus, who resurrected this human body? God, Jesus, or the Holy Spirit?

Would you say Jesus resurrected himself or that his Father resurrected the body of Jesus? I still don't understand how the man part of Jesus didn't have his own sinless spirit apart and different from God's Spirit. Even if he was 100% God, he was 100% man.

As I study Jesus, I compare him to Adam in many ways. Adam had God's DNA from creation. I believe Jesus had God's DNA from creation and Mary's DNA making him fully man, indwelled fully by the Holy Spirit. Many Trinitarians and Oneness believers believe Jesus had two natures one fully God and one fully human. For Jesus to be fully human he had to have his Father's DNA unless he was adopted. 

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

How did Jesus become a life giving spirit? Was it actually the spirit of Jesus giving others life or was it by the sacrifice, death, and resurrection of Jesus?

Did Jesus quicken himself?
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that [now] dwelleth in you. 

Jesus was literally raised out of death when his lifeless human corpse was brought to life by God the Father. God placed the human spirit and/or soul of Jesus back into his resurrected body.
This body was changed into a glorified body that ascended to Heaven in some form that sits at the right hand of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 20, 2015)

God in the flesh didn't die for our sins. The man Jesus died for our sins. God is spirit and can't die. The Spirit of God left the man Jesus temporarily. The Spirit of God resurrected the man Jesus. The man Jesus died for our sins as it took the 2nd Adam to correct the 1st Adam's mistake. When God resurrected his Son Jesus, his human soul re-entered his new glorious body as well as God returning his own Spirit within this resurrected body.

One day we will also become as Jesus. We will be his brothers and co-heir to inherit his Kingdom.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> not only a future return, I also believe in a constant appeal by God, Prompting by the Holy Spirit, circumstance placed to bring sinners to God.
> 
> A response is required.
> 
> ...



My answer is simple. Of course God is still calling folks to the church. Revelation 22 is our present.
Luke 7:32 does not concern us , all one needs to do is consider verse 31 and we see it was that generation in context.
 The 70 ad return is not difficult at all to defend, what's difficult to defend and against God's word is a return that comes after the first century.
 Matthew 24:34  Matthew 16:28 
 I have 101 time statements that puts Christ return  in that generation, in the first century.
you have nothing that puts His return thousands of years into the future, unless you convince yourself that God doesn't know the difference in a day and a thousand years,and would deceive men because of that.

Scroll down the threads, I have one titled , Why I believe Jesus came back 70 ad.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 21, 2015)

The idea that it had to be God to pay the sin debt is foreign to our bible. He had to be God's firstborn is what it clearly tells us

 Son of God- firstborn Son
Son of God- firstborn Son
What does it mean? I see it used so often, I see it used incorrectly without justification. As I try to draw a picture, think substitute. Not that Jesus was the substitute, but rather the real deal. Sin in the garden saw a substitute just as did Abraham when he was going to sacrifice his firstborn son. Recall the biblical tradition where the firstborn son is offered to God, to serve in the temple. The firstborn son offered redeems the remainder of the family. The second or third son does not have to be offered because it was paid in full by the first. And we see a substitute in the temple as high priests because the Israelites had looked at the golden calf, so God commisioned the Levites to fill this position in place of all of Israel's firstborn sons. Offerings were to be made as a constant reminder that a substitute was in the temple serving God. This was why Joseph and Mary took Jesus to the temple courts where we meet Simeion and Anna. So we see the sacrificial practice played out for hundreds of years with a substitute as the sacrifice and a substitute as the high priest. As Paul said, this ritual did nothing to clear the conscience but rather was a constant reminder of the one to come, the son of God, who would no longer be a substitute but the real deal "high priest in service to God" who could once in for all clear the conscience, who unlike Adam who threw Eve under the bus, would mediate on our behalf. Now whether you believe Jesus is Son of God by his "receiving the promised Holy Spirit" at his baptism or you believe he is Son of God by birth, I do not wish to address this now, only the anticipation of the Son of God in it's true biblical understanding, not today's traditional thinking which is void of any biblical foundation. So when biblical subjects had faith in him.... faith for what? Faith that he was the Son of God. This term being "loaded". Not simply meaning that he was God's son. To have faith in Jesus as the Son of God/firstborn meant that no longer was a substitute in the temple serving God, no more Levites, that Jesus is "our High Priest in service to God [Heb] and that no longer were substitutes sacrificed, sheep, doves, etc, but rather he "offered himself unblemished to God". Now if we believe this we rest from our work of trying to earn our salvation. This comes from having faith that Jesus is the Son of God and that we no longer practice the biblical mandate of temple sacrifices. Jesus is our brother, "firstborn of many brothers". What this means is that he has redeemed the remainder of the family, all those God calls, born of God.


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> No, I'm not saying Jesus' spirit is the Holy Spirit but I thought that is what you said. You said Jesus' spirit is God's Spirit and that Jesus didn't have his own spirit. That the Spirit of God left Jesus.



Your spirit is eternal, it can exist without the body and outside of time . 

The purpose of a body is redemption. We share in the blood of Jesus and thus His death.  God incarnate.  You too are a spiritual being incarnate or in a fleshly body. 

When you die, your spirit will leave the body. Jesus's spirit left the body too, as Jesus willed it, it just was God.


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> The idea that it had to be God to pay the sin debt is foreign to our bible. He had to be God's firstborn is what it clearly tells us
> 
> Son of God- firstborn Son
> Son of God- firstborn Son
> What does it mean? I see it used so often, I see it used incorrectly without justification. As I try to draw a picture, think substitute. Not that Jesus was the substitute, but rather the real deal. Sin in the garden saw a substitute just as did Abraham when he was going to sacrifice his firstborn son. Recall the biblical tradition where the firstborn son is offered to God, to serve in the temple. The firstborn son offered redeems the remainder of the family. The second or third son does not have to be offered because it was paid in full by the first. And we see a substitute in the temple as high priests because the Israelites had looked at the golden calf, so God commisioned the Levites to fill this position in place of all of Israel's firstborn sons. Offerings were to be made as a constant reminder that a substitute was in the temple serving God. This was why Joseph and Mary took Jesus to the temple courts where we meet Simeion and Anna. So we see the sacrificial practice played out for hundreds of years with a substitute as the sacrifice and a substitute as the high priest. As Paul said, this ritual did nothing to clear the conscience but rather was a constant reminder of the one to come, the son of God, who would no longer be a substitute but the real deal "high priest in service to God" who could once in for all clear the conscience, who unlike Adam who threw Eve under the bus, would mediate on our behalf. Now whether you believe Jesus is Son of God by his "receiving the promised Holy Spirit" at his baptism or you believe he is Son of God by birth, I do not wish to address this now, only the anticipation of the Son of God in it's true biblical understanding, not today's traditional thinking which is void of any biblical foundation. So when biblical subjects had faith in him.... faith for what? Faith that he was the Son of God. This term being "loaded". Not simply meaning that he was God's son. To have faith in Jesus as the Son of God/firstborn meant that no longer was a substitute in the temple serving God, no more Levites, that Jesus is "our High Priest in service to God [Heb] and that no longer were substitutes sacrificed, sheep, doves, etc, but rather he "offered himself unblemished to God". Now if we believe this we rest from our work of trying to earn our salvation. This comes from having faith that Jesus is the Son of God and that we no longer practice the biblical mandate of temple sacrifices. Jesus is our brother, "firstborn of many brothers". What this means is that he has redeemed the remainder of the family, all those God calls, born of God.



God was  the judge who condemned us,
He is the Advocate on our behalf, against the accusations of the Adversary 
God also took upon Himself our punishment (propitiation).
He will also welcome us back into fellowship with Himself

 Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> My answer is simple. Of course God is still calling folks to the church. Revelation 22 is our present.
> Luke 7:32 does not concern us , all one needs to do is consider verse 31 and we see it was that generation in context.
> The 70 ad return is not difficult at all to defend, what's difficult to defend and against God's word is a return that comes after the first century.
> Matthew 24:34  Matthew 16:28
> ...



The destruction of an earthly city and temple occurs often through History. The destruction of the temple ended the animal sacrifices, which were no longer required as Jesus was THE sacrifice.
The destruction of the Temple was significant to the Jews but not to me.

Since we are not in the millennial reign nor in the seven year tribulation, we have to say He has not returned.


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> God in the flesh didn't die for our sins. The man Jesus died for our sins. God is spirit and can't die. The Spirit of God left the man Jesus temporarily. The Spirit of God resurrected the man Jesus. The man Jesus died for our sins as it took the 2nd Adam to correct the 1st Adam's mistake. When God resurrected his Son Jesus, his human soul re-entered his new glorious body as well as God returning his own Spirit within this resurrected body.
> 
> One day we will also become as Jesus. We will be his brothers and co-heir to inherit his Kingdom.



Emmanuel means God with us.

If God didn't take our punishment, then we are not saved.
Jesus as God took All sin unto Himself. Only God could do this. A created being could only live a sinless life to save himself no others. As a Human we share the blood of Christ, His blood our blood, thus His death our death.

As a humans we can share in salvation. As God he took care of all sin, all the wrong against Him


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> God in the flesh didn't die for our sins. The man Jesus died for our sins. God is spirit and can't die. The Spirit of God left the man Jesus temporarily. The Spirit of God resurrected the man Jesus. The man Jesus died for our sins as it took the 2nd Adam to correct the 1st Adam's mistake. When God resurrected his Son Jesus, his human soul re-entered his new glorious body as well as God returning his own Spirit within this resurrected body.
> 
> One day we will also become as Jesus. We will be his brothers and co-heir to inherit his Kingdom.


Is this the belief known as "separationists"?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Emmanuel means God with us.
> 
> If God didn't take our punishment, then we are not saved.
> Jesus as God took All sin unto Himself. Only God could do this. A created being could only live a sinless life to save himself no others. As a Human we share the blood of Christ, His blood our blood, thus His death our death.
> ...


Emanuel does mean God with us, but not in the way your thinking. Where does this come from... An underdog king was facing certain defeat. He refused asking for a sign yet he was given one. In the time period from conception to weaning he would defeat his enemies. His thinking is that in no way could he muster such an army in this short of a time. It would take generations to out birth his opponets for more manpower. So it would be a clear sign, in no way could he take credit. A clear sign that "God was with him". Same in the NT. Man tried for many generations, seen in the OT, to overcome his behavior. All man  accomplished was a white washed tomb. But through the new covenant, we can overcome our nature.... not by our best efforts or discipline, but because "God is with us". My son attends UNC Chapel hill, he will be called a "tar heel". This does not mean that he is a literal tar heel. Same with Jesus being called "God with us". We can not make the book fit our traditions but rather must look to where the context comes from. Otherwise we can invent all sorts of non biblical beliefs


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Emmanuel means God with us.
> 
> *If God didn't take our punishment, then we are not saved.*
> Jesus as God took All sin unto Himself. Only God could do this. A created being could only live a sinless life to save himself no others. As a Human we share the blood of Christ, His blood our blood, thus His death our death.
> ...


If you were to try to show this from scripture, you would see it ain't there


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Your spirit is eternal, it can exist without the body and outside of time .
> 
> The purpose of a body is redemption. We share in the blood of Jesus and thus His death.  God incarnate.  You too are a spiritual being incarnate or in a fleshly body.
> 
> When you die, your spirit will leave the body. Jesus's spirit left the body too, as Jesus willed it, it just was God.



Where was my eternal spirit before my physical birth? What religion teaches that I'm eternal even in spirit form?

You said the spirit of Jesus was God's spirit. Did Jesus not have his own spirit that left his body when he died a physical death? A spirit that went somewhere to witness to souls in prison?

If the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit), was the only spirit Jesus had then he had the Holy Spirit. He was either born with it or he acquired it from God at his baptism.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Is this the belief known as "separationists"?



I think that is what it is called. Going back even to his birth. Jesus had to give up his deity in order to act like a human. Kinda like the old TV show "Bewitched." She was suppose to give up her powers to be a mortal housewife.
Jesus had to empty himself of his powers. He then used the powers of his Father to perform miracles, etc.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Emanuel does mean God with us, but not in the way your thinking. Where does this come from... An underdog king was facing certain defeat. He refused asking for a sign yet he was given one. In the time period from conception to weaning he would defeat his enemies. His thinking is that in no way could he muster such an army in this short of a time. It would take generations to out birth his opponets for more manpower. So it would be a clear sign, in no way could he take credit. A clear sign that "God was with him". Same in the NT. Man tried for many generations, seen in the OT, to overcome his behavior. All man  accomplished was a white washed tomb. But through the new covenant, we can overcome our nature.... not by our best efforts or discipline, but because "God is with us". My son attends UNC Chapel hill, he will be called a "tar heel". This does not mean that he is a literal tar heel. Same with Jesus being called "God with us". We can not make the book fit our traditions but rather must look to where the context comes from. Otherwise we can invent all sorts of non biblical beliefs



He is an exact "image" of the invisible God, not God himself. If you have seen Jesus, you have seen his Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Your spirit is eternal, it can exist without the body and outside of time .
> 
> The purpose of a body is redemption. We share in the blood of Jesus and thus His death.  God incarnate.  You too are a spiritual being incarnate or in a fleshly body.
> 
> When you die, your spirit will leave the body. Jesus's spirit left the body too, as Jesus willed it, it just was God.



It was the blood of the man Jesus. Even if he was 100% God, it was his 100% human blood that made the sacrifice for our sins. Even Trinitarians believe this. He was the 2nd Adam. It had to be human blood. God doesn't have blood even if Jesus is God incarnate. 
His DNA was 1/2 from his Father(God) and 1/2 from his Mother Mary. It was his 100% human blood that was sacrificed for our sins. His deity was spiritual but he had and still has a human soul. His human soul/spirit is at the right hand of God either in spirit or body.

Unless you believe in Oneness which means he isn't at the right hand of God but is God. Oneness believe you'll only see God in the form of Jesus because God IS Jesus since his incarnation. They believe God became Jesus at his birth and will now always be Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus.


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Where was my eternal spirit before my physical birth? What religion teaches that I'm eternal even in spirit form?
> 
> You said the spirit of Jesus was God's spirit. Did Jesus not have his own spirit that left his body when he died a physical death? A spirit that went somewhere to witness to souls in prison?
> 
> If the Spirit of God(Holy Spirit), was the only spirit Jesus had then he had the Holy Spirit. He was either born with it or he acquired it from God at his baptism.



God the Son existed before His body. Right?
God the Son was absent from His body while it was in the tomb, Right?
Was he God while in His body? Then He did not need the Holy Spirit did He? 

We have a record of the Three person  in the same place at the same time at Jesus Baptism, Was not Jesus God at that time?


Heb 10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
 Jhn 1:2
The same was in the beginning with God.
Jesus WAS God, the same a the Holy Spirit, 

We even have Jesus saying He will never leave us, yet saying He must go so the Comforter must come, both cannot be true unless both are God and are ONE as part of the Trinity 
NE


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Emanuel does mean God with us, but not in the way your thinking. Where does this come from... An underdog king was facing certain defeat. He refused asking for a sign yet he was given one. In the time period from conception to weaning he would defeat his enemies. His thinking is that in no way could he muster such an army in this short of a time. It would take generations to out birth his opponets for more manpower. So it would be a clear sign, in no way could he take credit. A clear sign that "God was with him". Same in the NT. Man tried for many generations, seen in the OT, to overcome his behavior. All man  accomplished was a white washed tomb. But through the new covenant, we can overcome our nature.... not by our best efforts or discipline, but because "God is with us". My son attends UNC Chapel hill, he will be called a "tar heel". This does not mean that he is a literal tar heel. Same with Jesus being called "God with us". We can not make the book fit our traditions but rather must look to where the context comes from. Otherwise we can invent all sorts of non biblical beliefs



Immanuel is a Proper noun, not a description


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## hobbs27 (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> The destruction of an earthly city and temple occurs often through History. The destruction of the temple ended the animal sacrifices, which were no longer required as Jesus was THE sacrifice.
> The destruction of the Temple was significant to the Jews but not to me.
> 
> Since we are not in the millennial reign nor in the seven year tribulation, we have to say He has not returned.



 Oh yeah..Gotchya. The total destruction of a temple, economy and Religion { Judaism}  no big deal, happens all the time.

 You are right , that we are not in the millennium. It's done and over with. John was in the tribulation when he wrote Revelation, so its gone too. And by that being done, we now He has come back just like He said He would!


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that is what it is called. Going back even to his birth. Jesus had to give up his deity in order to act like a human. Kinda like the old TV show "Bewitched." She was suppose to give up her powers to be a mortal housewife.
> Jesus had to empty himself of his powers. He then used the powers of his Father to perform miracles, etc.



He did not give up His deity, just His rightfully due Glory His reputation. It is restored in verse 9

Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 Phl 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name.

Jesus still had his power.


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## marketgunner (Jul 21, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> If you were to try to show this from scripture, you would see it ain't there



Zech 12 10 show God was on the Cross.

2Co 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
 2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I do not believe anything unless scripture proves it. Not man's opinion of scripture, not a translation(man's opinion again) but the original meaning in the original language.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> He did not give up His deity, just His rightfully due Glory His reputation. It is restored in verse 9
> 
> Phl 2:7
> But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
> ...



Acts 10:37-38
37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit.

There are other verses where Jesus says his Father is greater than he is, even showing submissiveness to his Father. There are verses where Jesus says he isn't doing his will but the will of his Father proving he had his own soul/spirit.  There are verses where Jesus says he is using his Father's power.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 21, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Zech 12 10 show God was on the Cross.
> 
> 2Co 5:18
> And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
> ...



If Jesus was God, why say that God was in Christ? God was in Christ in the form of his Spirit although Jesus has his own spirit. He still does today in Heaven as we speak.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Jesus was God, why say that God was in Christ? God was in Christ in the form of his Spirit although Jesus has his own spirit. He still does today in Heaven as we speak.



It is difficult to explain God..period! A spirit, what do we know about spirits? Much less a spirit that came in the flesh.
 What I do believe though is that if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It is difficult to explain God..period! ... What I do believe though is that if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity.



Amen.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It is difficult to explain God..period! A spirit, what do we know about spirits? Much less a spirit that came in the flesh.
> What I do believe though is that if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity.



Why do you say that when I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, whose blood was shed for my sins?
If I believe that and that is what scripture tells me to believe why do I need to think that Jesus is  1/3 of a Triune God? At the very least the Oneness of God becoming Jesus makes more sense than Jesus being 1/3 of a Triune God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

I believe that Jesus is the image of the invisible God and that God was in Christ. I also believe that the Father is greater than Jesus. I believe that Jesus had his own soul and spirit and the Holy Spirit. I believe that Jesus had two natures. I just don't believe that he was his Father or that he was 1/3 of the same deity.  The Trinity appears as a way to understand and justify the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three separate but equal parts of the same God. 
Again why not Oneness? Make God "one." Either he is one or he is three. I think he is One. I can't divide my God into three. God is everything and in everything. 
If you have seen Jesus you have seen his Father.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do you say that when I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, whose blood was shed for my sins?
> If I believe that and that is what scripture tells me to believe why do I need to think that Jesus is  1/3 of a Triune God? At the very least the Oneness of God becoming Jesus makes more sense than Jesus being 1/3 of a Triune God.



Read my comment again and point out where I said , what you claim I said.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Read my comment again and point out where I said , what you claim I said.



You said "if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity."

I deny that Christ was born of a virgin and is not God as I believe Jesus is not God but the Son of God. Should I give up on Christianity?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> You said "if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity."
> 
> I deny that Christ was born of a virgin and is not God as I believe Jesus is not God but the Son of God. Should I give up on Christianity?



If you don't believe the Holy Scriptures that Christ was born of a virgin, and you don't believe Christ is God, then IMO, for what it's worth , you already have given up on Christianity.


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## welderguy (Jul 22, 2015)

Don't EVER give up on Christianity. Keep pressing toward the mark of the high calling.
The writer to the Hebrews said lift up the hands that hang down, and the feeble knees.And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way.Rather, let it be healed.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not unto your own understanding.


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> It was the blood of the man Jesus. Even if he was 100% God, it was his 100% human blood that made the sacrifice for our sins. Even Trinitarians believe this. He was the 2nd Adam. It had to be human blood. God doesn't have blood even if Jesus is God incarnate.
> His DNA was 1/2 from his Father(God) and 1/2 from his Mother Mary. It was his 100% human blood that was sacrificed for our sins. His deity was spiritual but he had and still has a human soul. His human soul/spirit is at the right hand of God either in spirit or body.
> 
> Unless you believe in Oneness which means he isn't at the right hand of God but is God. Oneness believe you'll only see God in the form of Jesus because God IS Jesus since his incarnation. They believe God became Jesus at his birth and will now always be Jesus. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of Jesus.



I do not think it was the same as a human soul. I KNOW His Spirit can be show to be separable from the Holy Spirit, although the same in the Trinity.
He does not exist as a Human at the right Hand of God. He does not take a lessor position to GOD in Heaven.
There is only one Throne.


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> You said "if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity."
> 
> I deny that Christ was born of a virgin and is not God as I believe Jesus is not God but the Son of God. Should I give up on Christianity?



You are probably NOT a Christian since that mean a believer(a follower must believe to follow) in Jesus Christ.

One can't claim to be for the favorite team and not believe in the team.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You are probably NOT a Christian since that mean a believer(a follower must believe to follow) in Jesus Christ.
> 
> One can't claim to be for the favorite team and not believe in the team.



I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that he shed his human blood for my sins. I don't really care what label man places upon me, my salvation is between my God, the God of Jesus. 
"My Father and your Father, and my God and your God."

You can make God out to be more than one but there is only one God. Jesus said the Father is greater than I. 

At the very least most Trinitarians should consider in the belief of Oneness. God is one. If Jesus is God incarnate, then God is now Jesus. Jesus only.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

When I accepted Jesus as my savior, I didn't even know of the Trinity. I was 12 and learned about the Trinity after my conversion. I can't believe that everyone knows about and believes in the Trinity at the moment of their conversion or election. The moment they are saved. 

If once save, always saved is true then Jesus is still my Redeemer. I haven't turned my back on him and he want turn his back on me.
If I must believe that Jesus is his Father or 1/3 of a Godhead to be called a Christian, then I'll seek my relationship with God on a more personal basis.

If I do change my belief then I'll go with Jesus became his Father at the incarnation/birth of Jesus, Oneness, Jesus only.

If I believe in Oneness instead of the Trinity would that be any better in ya'lls eyes?


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Oh yeah..Gotchya. The total destruction of a temple, economy and Religion { Judaism}  no big deal, happens all the time.
> 
> You are right , that we are not in the millennium. It's done and over with. John was in the tribulation when he wrote Revelation, so its gone too. And by that being done, we now He has come back just like He said He would!



John was writing about past , present and future events.

Rev 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Some events have yet to occur, the rapture, tribulation, Millennial Rein, destruction on the sinful earth etc.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> When I accepted Jesus as my savior, I didn't even know of the Trinity. I was 12 and learned about the Trinity after my conversion. I can't believe that everyone knows about and believes in the Trinity at the moment of their conversion or election. The moment they are saved.
> 
> If once save, always saved is true then Jesus is still my Redeemer. I haven't turned my back on him and he want turn his back on me.
> If I must believe that Jesus is his Father or 1/3 of a Godhead to be called a Christian, then I'll seek my relationship with God on a more personal basis.
> ...


 
Art you dont have to be trinitarian or oneness, but deny Christ was born of a virgin, clearly puts you outside of the religion known as Christianity. Maybe you are Christian and confused about this....Keep praying , keep reading, ask for faith , and Ill pray for you too.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> John was writing about past , present and future events.
> 
> Rev 1:19
> Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
> ...


 Not true.

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

 MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Not true.
> 
> Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
> 
> MUST SHORTLY COME TO PASS



so verse 1 overides verse 19? Verse 1 makes v19 not true?

They already knew the past and present, 

He show things which shortly come to pass concerning  the churches until ch 4.

Rev 4:1
¶
After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things *which must be hereafter*.

in Ch 4, it is about hereafter from a Heavenly viewpoint


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> so verse 1 overides verse 19? Verse 1 makes v19 not true?
> 
> They already knew the past and present,
> 
> ...


 
 No. Verse one compliments the rest of the book. Sure things were still to come, but verse one shows us when they must come. SHORTLY, and this is written in first century, there's plenty of other tell tell signs....such as John was told not to seal up:

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

 But Daniel was told to seal his for the time was far off: 

"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

As for 4:1..yes hereafter...but it was at hand..


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> If you don't believe the Holy Scriptures that Christ was born of a virgin, and you don't believe Christ is God, then IMO, for what it's worth , you already have given up on Christianity.


Hi Hobbs. This is what CARM states about the word translated as virgin;



Isaiah 7:14, in Hebrew means maiden, not virgin. Therefore, it is not a prophecy.
"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel," (Isaiah 7:14).

Isaiah 7:14 says that a virgin will bear a son. The problem is dealing with the Hebrew word for virgin, which is almah. According to the Strong's Concordance it means, "virgin, young woman 1a) of marriageable age 1b) maid or newly married." Therefore, the word almah does not always mean virgin.  The word "occurs elsewhere in the Old Testament only in Genesis 24:43 (maiden); Exodus 2:8 (girl); Psalm 68:25 (maidens); Proverbs 30:19 (maiden); Song of Songs 1:3 (maidens); 6:8 (virgins)."1 Additionally, there is a Hebrew word for virgin:  bethulah. If Isaiah 7:14 was meant to mean virgin instead of young maiden, then why wasn't the word used here?

The LXX is a translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek.  This translation was made around 200 B.C. by 70 Hebrew scholars.  In Isaiah 7:14, they translated the word almah into the Greek word parthenos.  According to A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,2 parthenos means virgin.  This word is used in the New Testament of the Virgin Mary (Matt. 1:23; Luke 1:27) and of the ten virgins in the parable (Matt. 25:1, 7, 11).  If the Hebrews translated the Hebrew word almah into the Greek word for virgin, then they understood what the Hebrew text meant here.

Why would Isaiah choose to use the word almah and not bethulah?  It was probably because he wanted to demonstrate that the virgin would also be a young woman.  Is it still a prophecy?  Of course.


 End Christian apollogetics research ministry, [Carm] quote. Likely has over 2000 online at any given time.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

So why would God give a sign that could not be verified. No one would know for shure if this young lady was a virgin. This would be no sign at all. This underdog king was given a sign that against all odds that he would be victorious because "God was with him". What is a sign that can't be realized. It is not a sign. The real sign is the amount of time from conception to weaning. This underdog king would defeat his adversaries inspite of being out maned. Proof or a sign that not by might, manpower or strategy did he accomplish this but because "God was with him". It was never virgin but rather young maiden.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Zech 12 10 show God was on the Cross.
> 
> 2Co 5:18
> And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
> ...


Your doing a good job fielding all these different objections. Got another for you, LOL, we are keeping you busy. "God was in Christ" does not say God was Christ. It looks like the new covenant to me. The Holy Spirit of God came down in the form of a dove, he received the promised HS, God in Christ, not God is Christ


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Emmanuel is a Proper noun, not a description


What difference can be concluded by "He will be called" instead of He is "Emmanuel "??


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey 1gr8bldr, no research of word definitions required here, just let the story do the talking...unless you want to look up espoused.


Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,

23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:

25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art you dont have to be trinitarian or oneness, but deny Christ was born of a virgin, clearly puts you *outside of the religion known as Christianity. *Maybe you are Christian and confused about this....Keep praying , keep reading, ask for faith , and Ill pray for you too.


Funny how each group draws a circle and defines Christianity. In or out if you don't believe as we do. Yet, we got lots of circles. I do realize that your circle is "orthodox",  those who won over the other groups in claiming to be right. LOL, your he11 belief has you on the edge and many pushing


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Hey 1gr8bldr, no research of word definitions required here, just let the story do the talking...unless you want to look up espoused.
> 
> 
> Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
> ...


 I respect your belief of bible inerrancy so therefore your on target based on those verses quoted. My own beliefs your familiar with, that it does contain verese that are not actual but rather later embellishments. For example, had Mary given birth to Jesus being a virgin, knowing who he was, then nothing should surprise her. So I look at this; 
New International Version
When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his mind."

New Living Translation
When his family heard what was happening, they tried to take him away. "He's out of his mind," they said.

English Standard Version
And when his family heard it, they went out to seize him, for they were saying, “He is out of his mind.”

And verse 3;31 tells us it was his Mother and brothers.


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> What difference can be concluded by "He will be called" instead of He is "Emmanuel "??



you said it was a descriptive term for one who God is blessing.

It is a name or title


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> you said it was a descriptive term for one who God is blessing.
> 
> It is a name or title


????? Edit, oh, I see now ... God blessing the underdog king


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do you say that when I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, whose blood was shed for my sins?
> If I believe that and that is what scripture tells me to believe why do I need to think that Jesus is  1/3 of a Triune God? At the very least the Oneness of God becoming Jesus makes more sense than Jesus being 1/3 of a Triune God.



I stated in this post that Jesus was born of a virgin. I believe his Father was God who is now my Father. I am now the brother of Jesus and co-heir to our Father's Kingdom. I am an adopted son.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> You said "if we deny Christ was born of a virgin, and was not God. Then we need to just give up on Christianity."
> 
> I deny that Christ was born of a virgin and is not God as I believe Jesus is not God but the Son of God. Should I give up on Christianity?



If you read this again, you will see what part of your statement I didn't agree with. I was just repeating your statement and adding why I didn't agree with it. Either way you said that one must believe Jesus is God. Not that believing as I or you is required for salvation. All that is required for salvation is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God who shed his blood for our sins. 
Was this blood  human blood or God's blood? If God became Jesus, did Jesus shed God's blood? Did this blood sacrifice need to be God's blood or a human's blood? Is Jesus now in Heaven with God or is he now God?


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your doing a good job fielding all these different objections. Got another for you, LOL, we are keeping you busy. "God was in Christ" does not say God was Christ. It looks like the new covenant to me. The Holy Spirit of God came down in the form of a dove, he received the promised HS, God in Christ, not God is Christ



Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Is your position the Spirit of God is different from the Spirit of Christ? which one is in us?

The Holy Spirit was not distributed until Pentecost but came upon men at appointed times for an appointed purpose.

Gal 4:6
And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

While I agree the Holy Spirit is God, and God who became the son of man was God, the term Holy Spirit is used as God deals with sinful man and leads the redeemed since Jesus the man left us.  The term is not used for Jesus who was God, the Spirit, incarnate .


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Funny how each group draws a circle and defines Christianity. In or out if you don't believe as we do. Yet, we got lots of circles. I do realize that your circle is "orthodox",  those who won over the other groups in claiming to be right. LOL, your he11 belief has you on the edge and many pushing



I could easily apply Hobb's avatar to people trying to justify in their mind; one God of three equal parts with scripture. That line is very jumbled. Oneness is a little better but even it is jumbled. 
It is true that in some circles Preterist and no-he!!ers are not considered Christians. In some circles Election believers are not considered Christian as they didn't choose Jesus as their Saviour, believing God chose them.
In some circles free-will believers aren't Christian as they believe man has sovereignty. They believe they actually have some control of God's plan for them.

Paul clearly explains in 1 Corinthians 2;

"But we have the mind of Christ". 

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

I'm trying to offer hope for all of us.


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I stated in this post that Jesus was born of a virgin. I believe his Father was God who is now my Father. I am now the brother of Jesus and co-heir to our Father's Kingdom. I am an adopted son.



How did you gain this position?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Rom 8:9
> But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
> 
> Is your position the Spirit of God is different from the Spirit of Christ? which one is in us?
> ...



Are you contending God has more than one Spirit? Was God's Spirit in Christ a different Spirit of God than God's Holy Spirit?

Acts 10:37-38
37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.

Jesus was anointed with the Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Rom 8:9
> But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
> 
> Is your position the Spirit of God is different from the Spirit of Christ? which one is in us?
> ...



Earlier you said you don't believe Jesus had his own Spirit. When the Holy Spirit came at the Pentecost was this the 2nd coming of Jesus?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> How did you gain this position?



Romans 8:16-17
16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

By believing that the blood of Christ was sufficient ransom for my sins.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

Hebrews 2:11
Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

Matthew 25:40
"The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

John 20:17
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

I share the same Father and God with Jesus through adoption.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

Wasn't Jesus anointed with the Holy Spirit, the oil of gladness, as both priest and king? Something about the line of Melchizedek.
Aren't all priest anointed with the Holy Spirit?


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Earlier you said you don't believe Jesus had his own Spirit. When the Holy Spirit came at the Pentecost was this the 2nd coming of Jesus?



no, Jesus did have His own Spirit, it was God who became man.


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## marketgunner (Jul 22, 2015)

Do you not know Jesus was in Heaven while on the earth, He was God, A Spirit in a flesh and blood vessel.

You are also a spiritual eternal being in a flesh and blood vessel.

Of course, you are not God as Jesus was.

eb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Do you not know Jesus was in Heaven while on the earth, He was God, A Spirit in a flesh and blood vessel.
> 
> You are also a spiritual eternal being in a flesh and blood vessel.
> 
> ...



I don't see this as God becoming Jesus. That verse states that Jesus shared (kekoinōnēken) being flesh and blood.

Hebrews 2:14
Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,

or another version;
Now since the children have flesh and blood in common, Jesus also shared in these, so that through His death He might destroy the one holding the power of death--that is, the Devil--

That verse lets us know the the Son of God was a man. In other words I could use that verse to prove my belief.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> sure, "into thy hands I commend my spirit". Spirit was separated from the flesh. The resurrection of His flesh was after His Sinless Spirit was  presented as the payment for all sin.
> 
> God condemned us , God became us so we could share in the sacrifice, He was the payment. Only God could satisfy the requirement He set.
> 
> I  think Jesus's spirit/soul was God. God in the flesh.



Your last sentence states you think Jesus' spirit/soul was God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Your spirit is eternal, it can exist without the body and outside of time .
> 
> The purpose of a body is redemption. We share in the blood of Jesus and thus His death.  God incarnate.  You too are a spiritual being incarnate or in a fleshly body.
> 
> When you die, your spirit will leave the body. Jesus's spirit left the body too, as Jesus willed it, it just was God.



Again in your last sentence you said "Jesus' spirit left the body too, as Jesus willed it, it was God. "

Where was my eternal spirit before my birth? If I'm eternal why do I need salvation? If I was with God and Jesus at creation, what makes me different in terms of eternal, always being? Is just my container a created place for my always being, eternal soul/spirit?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 22, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> I do not think it was the same as a human soul. I KNOW His Spirit can be show to be separable from the Holy Spirit, although the same in the Trinity.
> He does not exist as a Human at the right Hand of God. He does not take a lessor position to GOD in Heaven.
> There is only one Throne.



Now this is confusing as you are now saying Jesus has his own spirit that is different from God's spirit yet from within the Trinity is the same as the Holy Spirit.

How is it possible for Jesus to be 100% man with  a human mother and not have a human soul? Jesus had to be a human to make a blood sacrifice. I've never heard of a human being without a soul. It was needed for Jesus to go through his temptation. Even if he was 100% God, he had to be 100% man. He had to have his own soul. 
The separate entity-soul-spirit of Jesus went to witness to spirits in prison. To address people who do believe Jesus has a separate soul, where is it now? Who placed this soul back into the body of Jesus for his resurrection? Is Jesus now at the right hand of God? Even if not figurative, is Jesus in Heaven with his Father? If not then the Oneness believers are right and God is now Jesus sitting on this one throne.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

What form was Jesus before he came to Earth. When he was with God at creation? What form was the Holy Spirit before he came to the Earth at the Pentecost? Did the Holy Spirit also exist at creation?
Has the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit always been separate but equal parts of the Godhead?


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see this as God becoming Jesus. That verse states that Jesus shared (kekoinōnēken) being flesh and blood.
> 
> Hebrews 2:14
> Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil,
> ...



He existed, then became flesh.  Was He not Spirit, Was he not God?


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What form was Jesus before he came to Earth. When he was with God at creation? What form was the Holy Spirit before he came to the Earth at the Pentecost? Did the Holy Spirit also exist at creation?
> Has the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit always been separate but equal parts of the Godhead?



The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the earth

and We know Jesus created all things.

 Col 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> The Spirit of God moved upon the face of the earth
> 
> and We know Jesus created all things.
> 
> ...


"by" him is a incorrect translation, a result of biased translators. It is clearly not "by" yet it stays


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

What should it be?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

Col 1;16 is a translation mess. the first by should have been "in". ev is almost always "in". in this same sentence, they get it right once. LOL, the same greek word in the same breath translated two different ways. Then the next "by" wrong is Si, almost always "through". The context of the first ev used correctly is ephesians 2;10 I think, For we are created in him to do good works which God prepared in advance..... The correct context is that through Jesus, a new age has come, We had the law through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus. As seen in Heb, he did not create the universe, but rather the aions, the age, We are a new creation.... that came through Jesus


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

I have always said that even if I were trinitarian, I would not try to force Jesus to be the creator. The Father would be and I would not try to force Jesus into antiquity, OT appearances. This would if anything be the HS... if I were trinitarian.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

Biblehub is agreat link. Type any verse or part of the verse along with "biblehub" and then click on it. It will give you so many options. The one I use most is the greek link if NT. Then it shows each greek word, you can click to see how often it is translated a certain way, etc. Very user friendly


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

Notice same greek word translated two different ways in the same breath... not likely

ration	Greek	English	Morphology
3754 [e]	hoti	ὅτι	because	Conj
*1722 [e]	en	ἐν	by*	Prep
846 [e]	autō	αὐτῷ	him	PPro-DM3S
2936 [e]	ektisthē	ἐκτίσθη	were created	V-AIP-3S
3588 [e]	ta	τὰ	-	Art-NNP
3956 [e]	panta	πάντα	all things,	Adj-NNP
*1722 [e]	en	ἐν	in*	Prep
3588 [e]	tois	τοῖς	the	Art-DMP
3772 [e]	ouranois	οὐρανοῖς	heavens,	N-DMP
2532 [e]	kai	καὶ	and	Conj
1909 [e]	epi	ἐπὶ	upon	Prep
3588 [e]	tēs	τῆς	the


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

Notice the next "mess", 

2963 [e]	kyriotÄ“tes	ÎºÏ…Ï�Î¹ÏŒÏ„Î·Ï„ÎµÏ‚	lordships,	N-NFP
1535 [e]	eite	Îµá¼´Ï„Îµ	or	Conj
746 [e]	archai	á¼€Ï�Ï‡Î±á½¶	rulers,	N-NFP
1535 [e]	eite	Îµá¼´Ï„Îµ	or	Conj
1849 [e]	exousiai	á¼�Î¾Î¿Ï…ÏƒÎ¯Î±Î¹·	authorities:	N-NFP
3588 [e]	ta	Ï„á½°	-	Art-NNP
3956 [e]	panta	Ï€Î¬Î½Ï„Î±	all things	Adj-NNP
*1223 [e]	diâ€™	Î´Î¹â€™	by	*Prep
846 [e]	autou	Î±á½�Ï„Î¿á¿¦	him	PPro-GM3S
2532 [e]	kai	ÎºÎ±á½¶	and	Conj
1519 [e]	eis	Îµá¼°Ï‚	for	Prep
846 [e]	auton	Î±á½�Ï„á½¸Î½	him


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

The Gr "en" has several uses either may be correct.  "in time , place or order and also the instrument of the action

Jhn 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

do you prefer "dia"?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

"in" and "through"

For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

I wish we had more Oneness believers. They do a good job explaining that Jesus didn't co-exist with God except in the word/mind/plan of God. As others have said God doesn't think or work by our time restraints. Everything was and has been made for and through the purpose of his Son Jesus. Jesus wasn't yet Jesus except in Word. God  became Jesus at the Incarnation.
If God is Jesus then Jesus could not have been with God. That is like having two Gods. Who came to the earth God or Jesus? Whose deity/spirit has always been eternal God or Jesus? They can't both be or then they are both separate Gods. Oneness keeps God as one God, incarnating into Jesus when God comes to the Earth as a man. Trinitarians divide God and Jesus into two separate Gods who have always co-existed. Making God do some chores and Jesus doing others. 
God only has one spirit called the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit wasn't laying around Heaven waiting for the Pentecost.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> The Gr "en" has several uses either may be correct.  "in time , place or order and also the instrument of the action
> 
> Jhn 1:3
> All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
> ...


Notice;

â—„ John 1:3 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
3956 [e]	panta	Ï€Î¬Î½Ï„Î±	All things	Adj-NNP
1223 [e]	diâ€™	Î´Î¹â€™	*through*	Prep
846 [e]	autou	Î±á½�Ï„Î¿á¿¦	him	PPro-GM3S
1096 [e]	egeneto	á¼�Î³Î­Î½ÎµÏ„Î¿,	*emerged*,	V-AIM-3S
2532 [e]	kai	ÎºÎ±á½¶	and	Conj
5565 [e]	chÅ�ris	Ï‡Ï‰Ï�á½¶Ï‚	without	Prep
846 [e]	autou	Î±á½�Ï„Î¿á¿¦	him	PPro-GM3S
1096 [e]	egeneto	á¼�Î³Î­Î½ÎµÏ„Î¿	emerged	V-AIM-3S

created and emerged are nothing the same. I will paste in the correct word definition.

Notice nothing hinting at creating.... more like the moving along of what already was. Context that the ages were created through Jesus work on the cross [age of grace]

HELPS Word-studies
1096 gínomai â€“ properly, to emerge, become, *transitioning from one point* (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /Ä“n).

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and *signifies a change of condition,* state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, *movement, or growth"* (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

It is best to think that God who became the son of man is the same being that created a place for man as part of the redemption of sinners. He also came, live as one and died to redeem sinners.  He is God(head) who dealt with sin.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> It is best to think that God who became the son of man is the same being that created a place for man as part of the redemption of sinners. He also came, live as one and died to redeem sinners.  He is God(head) who dealt with sin.



Do you believe God created the earth and placed our preexisting eternal spirits into human bodies as part of a redemption process for sinning spirits? If so I can see why God himself had to become a man in order to make this process possible.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 23, 2015)

This verse says God is the creator and Jesus was the beginning of that creation???
◄ Revelation 3:14 ►
Parallel Verses
New International Version
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the *ruler* of God's creation.  LOL, clearly "beginning" biased translators

New Living Translation
"Write this letter to the angel of the church in Laodicea. This is the message from the one who is the Amen--the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's new creation:

English Standard Version
“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

New American Standard Bible 
"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this:

King James Bible
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;


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## marketgunner (Jul 23, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe God created the earth and placed our preexisting eternal spirits into human bodies as part of a redemption process for sinning spirits? If so I can see why God himself had to become a man in order to make this process possible.



actually, I believe one more step, I believe the souls of man are the sinful angels.

That is why were are in the same place as Satan, a place of the spiritual dead, reserved for judgment, held in darkness.

That is why we are condemned already

that is why we can judge angels, those who haven't neen redeemed.

That is why sinful unrepentant man is sent to a place prepared for the Devil and his angels.

that is why Jesus said of the Jews "ye are of your Father the devil" and "ye are gods (elohyim) or heavenly hosts quoting from Psalms 82

Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
 Psa 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


It is all that makes sense.
God puts a sinful eternal being in a temporary earthly  vessel  that He came and shared the death as one of us. Angels do not have any  family relationships or brotherhood
being individual unique creation, as we are, yet we share blood and flesh, where by the death of one is for many.

Is God a respector of persons to save one race yet not provide for another group of sinners?

strange stuff, huh?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 23, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> actually, I believe one more step, I believe the souls of man are the sinful angels.
> 
> That is why were are in the same place as Satan, a place of the spiritual dead, reserved for judgment, held in darkness.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't say strange as it's new to me. Different theology, yes. Were angels created or are they eternal? I can't wrap my mind around any being or spirit that has always existed with God.
Sinful angel spirits becoming humans for redemption sounds like a form of reincarnation. Where can I read more about this belief?


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wouldn't say strange as it's new to me. Different theology, yes. Were angels created or are they eternal? I can't wrap my mind around any being or spirit that has always existed with God.
> Sinful angel spirits becoming humans for redemption sounds like a form of reincarnation. Where can I read more about this belief?



Angels were created but exist outside of time, so time does not apply.

Time and space only began when Satan and the others were expelled from Heaven. There was no darkness in Heaven but the fallen angels are held in chains of darkness in the place of the dead (CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored) but are here in the place of the spiritual dead.

Where else could they go?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2015)

I believe the fallen angels are what we now call demons whom are stuck here on earth awaiting their coming judgement, hitching a ride like a tick on living beings, man included


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2015)

Hey Marketgunner, I appreciate your not taking offense to all these discussions. Some can do so and sharpen their own apologetic sword, some just get mad and ugly. Most we encounter here at Woodys are great to air out discussions. LOL, you do a good job fielding all these post, keeping it going. Most all of what I have to say has been said before, so when someone like yourself comes along, motivated to keep it going, we see the participation increase. Appreciate the sparring time


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe the fallen angels are what we now call demons whom are stuck here on earth awaiting their coming judgement, hitching a ride like a tick on living beings, man included



this verse?

2Pe 2:4
¶
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

but we will judge angels, why is that?


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Marketgunner, I appreciate your not taking offense to all these discussions. Some can do so and sharpen their own apologetic sword, some just get mad and ugly. Most we encounter here at Woodys are great to air out discussions. LOL, you do a good job fielding all these post, keeping it going. Most all of what I have to say has been said before, so when someone like yourself comes along, motivated to keep it going, we see the participation increase. Appreciate the sparring time



I didn't consider it sparring at all, just talking


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## hobbs27 (Jul 24, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> I wonder why Christ always prayed to the father for all things that he needed and for the people, if he were God why would he pray to himself, can any answer this for me please?. I have not found that in my Bible.


 
 Because God came here in the flesh. 100% man, 100% God. He lived as a man, for an example as how to live. He prayed to the Father as an example as how to pray.

 It's only confusing when you concentrate on the Gospels, look at the Epistles and Revelation written after the ascension and you get a different picture of the Alpha and Omega , the beginning and the end.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Because God came here in the flesh. 100% man, 100% God. He lived as a man, for an example as how to live. He prayed to the Father as an example as how to pray.
> 
> It's only confusing when you concentrate on the Gospels, look at the Epistles and Revelation written after the ascension and you get a different picture of the Alpha and Omega , the beginning and the end.



God has no Alpha or Omega. God is eternal.

Would you agree with Welderguy that part of God's image is flesh? If God was talking to Jesus and knew that in his future, that he would become flesh, then isn't flesh a part of God's image? I don't see how a Trinitarian could see it any other way. It matters not that God wasn't flesh at the moment in time when he said "let us make man in our image" as he operates out of time and knew the he would become flesh.
If he was talking to Jesus instead of himself he also knew that Jesus would become flesh. 

Oneness does have a straighter line.


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

God was not in time. Time is for this physical world. The flesh is not part of God's image. Jesus was the physical incarnation (?) for a Spiritual being. The flesh was not deity

Jesus was in heaven while on earth. totally a spiritual characteristic


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> I wonder why Christ always prayed to the father for all things that he needed and for the people, if he were God why would he pray to himself, can any answer this for me please?. I have not found that in my Bible.



Because He made Himself one of us, to die as one of us.

He prayed to the Father as we do.

Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

 Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

1gr8bldr said:


> I believe the fallen angels are what we now call demons whom are stuck here on earth awaiting their coming judgement, hitching a ride like a tick on living beings, man included



We use angels incorrectly for those who sinned. Angels is messenger, The fallen sinful should be the receiver of the message.

Demon is from the greek  for "evil spirits" which should ber the same for the elohyim or host of heaven that sinned.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2015)

Banjo Picker said:


> I wonder why Christ always prayed to the father for all things that he needed and for the people, if he were God why would he pray to himself, can any answer this for me please?. I have not found that in my Bible.


I have a picture that caught my eye years ago on my wall. It is Jesus praying and looking to heaven. Funniest thing, all the preachers and religious that have been in my home when I attended a trin church, not one has ever mentioned it. It is a conflict of theology for them. It is a large framed picture. A real conversation piece.... that never gets a word.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> God was not in time. Time is for this physical world. The flesh is not part of God's image. Jesus was the physical incarnation (?) for a Spiritual being. The flesh was not deity
> 
> Jesus was in heaven while on earth. totally a spiritual characteristic



John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.

I recall another verse that said God's side was pierced.


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

It is not a conflict to Trinitarians, Jesus was 100% human and submissive  to the Father.

Phl 2:5
¶
Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

 Phl 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

 Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

 Phl 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
 Phl 2:9
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
> 
> I recall another verse that said God's side was pierced.



I am not saying God was not in the flesh, I am saying the flesh was not diety but as one of us. God was on the cross in the body of a human.  However the Trinity was not on the cross, only God who became the Son of man.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> It is not a conflict to Trinitarians, Jesus was 100% human and submissive  to the Father.
> 
> Phl 2:5
> ¶
> ...


Better understood if we think of "form of God" as "image of God". Unlike Eve who wanted to be "like God", obtain his glory praise, etc, Jesus did not consider this as something to be had, realizing he was "man", man being created to serve God rather than rival him, he humbled himself and was obedient, therefore God exercised his chief character and exalted him who humbles himself


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> If you don't believe the Holy Scriptures that Christ was born of a virgin, and you don't believe Christ is God, then IMO, for what it's worth , you already have given up on Christianity.



Hobbs, you never gave a rebuttal to my responses. I believe Christ was born a virgin but I don't believe Christ is God. I believe he is an image of the invisible God. 
Where in the scripture does it say that I must believe Jesus is his Father? If this is true then Trinitarains aren't Christians as they don't believe in the Oneness of God. Trinitarians don't believe Jesus is his Father incarnate. Trinitarians believe Jesus has always been with his Father and that this part of the Godhead came to the earth as a man, not God the Father.

This has been laying heavy on my heart that you never responded to my post 90 and 91.


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## marketgunner (Jul 24, 2015)

Why was man put on earth to serve God? 

Satan was already here, so why was man put here with them?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> I am not saying God was not in the flesh, I am saying the flesh was not diety but as one of us. God was on the cross in the body of a human.  However the Trinity was not on the cross, only God who became the Son of man.



Whose side was pierced? God or the man? Refer to your original post #1 before answering.

What forms did the 100% man nature of Jesus have? Soul, spirit, or body?

What forms did the 100% God nature if Jesus have? Spirit?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> I am not saying God was not in the flesh, I am saying the flesh was not diety but as one of us. God was on the cross in the body of a human.  However the Trinity was not on the cross, only God who became the Son of man.



Yet this part of the Godhead has always eternally existed with his Father. Only the 1/3 of the eternal Godhead Jesus who was with his Father at creation was on the cross. God the Father was still in Heaven. Jesus, 1/3 of the triune God prayed to his Father. He wasn't doing for show. He wasn't doing it for example. He was serious. 
This is the Trinity doctrine. God the Son prayed to God the Father.

Oneness on the other hand believe God the Father incarnate into Jesus at his birth. Jesus only existed as the Word/mind/plan of God before this incarnation. God literally became Jesus. They believe as Trins that Jesus has two natures, 100% God and 100% man. The only difference is they believe the 100% God part is the Father. They believe that once God became Jesus, he stayed Jesus. Jesus is now in Heaven as the image of God. Again we see that image is a copy or is it the exact same thing? Jesus has a body. This is how we see God. Jesus is flesh.
We are made in the image of Jesus who is now God incarnate.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Why was man put on earth to serve God?
> 
> Satan was already here, so why was man put here with them?


Created to serve,  revere God. Earth, I don't know


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 24, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Why was man put on earth to serve God?
> 
> Satan was already here, so why was man put here with them?



I'm sure it has something to do with being made in his image. We became living souls. Created containers for dead souls perhaps or souls in Limbo. Created to redeem ourselves. 
Yet the plan didn't work out so God sent his only Son to be that redemption.


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

Humanity is the method whereby by one death all eternal spiritual sinful beings can be redeemed.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Why was man put on earth to serve God?
> 
> Satan was already here, so why was man put here with them?



Where do you get in your spiritual dialectic that Satan was already here and man was put here with "them"?

The times I get that man gets in trouble in creation are when he ( man) disregards the importance of his spiritual relationship with God, as in going it alone ex: Tower of Babel, Garden of Eden put you hand on a hot stove to see what happens moment... etc... 

In this sense man is his own Satan or man has the ability to wax and wane his spirit willingly (  by willful sin) or unwillingly ( for the effect of participating unwillingly in the  sins of world ) . And by his spirit here I mean his nature which can be intimate with his creator or God.

In my view Satan comes into the picture when paradise is lost to man in relationship with God and a restoration is required. The kicking and screaming to get back in intimate union with God and the hopeful return to initial paradise relationship as a creation... is a fight with Satan, but really it is man fighting himself with an eye to the Gospels or the Word of God.

So in my view to say that Satan was created before man is giving God bad credit. Jesus on the cross blew Satan right out of the sky, because man could now get out ( displaced) of the world and into His spiritual Kingdom. Yet in the world Satan is still active in our lives...as man tries to run his race or fight the realities of where the lion just does not sit with the lamb yet and the Gospel says they will.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> God has no Alpha or Omega. God is eternal.
> 
> Would you agree with Welderguy that part of God's image is flesh? If God was talking to Jesus and knew that in his future, that he would become flesh, then isn't flesh a part of God's image? I don't see how a Trinitarian could see it any other way. It matters not that God wasn't flesh at the moment in time when he said "let us make man in our image" as he operates out of time and knew the he would become flesh.
> If he was talking to Jesus instead of himself he also knew that Jesus would become flesh.
> ...


 
The “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places. “I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4). “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.

All I know for sure is that Jesus is God, The Father is God, and there is but one God.


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> Where do you get in your spiritual dialectic that Satan was already here and man was put here with "them"?
> 
> The times I get that man gets in trouble in creation are when he ( man) disregards the importance of his spiritual relationship with God, as in going it alone ex: Tower of Babel, Garden of Eden put you hand on a hot stove to see what happens moment... etc...
> 
> ...



1. Satan had already sinned and become Satan before Adam sinned, Satan tempted Eve,  so Satan was here already.

Lucifer was in Heaven and sinned. He and the others could stay in Heaven, so where could they go.?

Jde 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

We know Satan and evil Spirits are here.

Mat 8:28
¶
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
 Mat 8:29
And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

So they are here and expecting judgment.


Them is us, we are the ones kick out of Heaven with Satan, we are put into Human vessels and are given a second chance


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> 1. Satan had already sinned and become Satan before Adam sinned, Satan tempted Eve, so Satan was here already.
> 
> Lucifer was in Heaven and sinned. He and the others could stay in Heaven, so where could they go.?
> 
> ...


 
 The book of Enoch, while not canon, will fill in many of the gaps of those Angels. The first century church had possession of the book of enoch and read from it. 
 Those fallen angels were bound in Tartarus to the day of judgment. Tartarus translated as he11 is not what we consider he11, it was simply a prison for these angels.

We don't know that Satan is here, what we do know is he was here while Christ ministered, but which Satan? Many different Satans in the book, since the word Satan simply means adversary.

Our flesh is a satan...Rome was a satan...Apostate Israel was a satan..


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

Tartarus was the innermost keep of Hades, or the high security area of the place of the dead.

There is one formerly know as Lucifer, with many names, Adversary where we get Satan from arabic, Devil from Greek, etc.

We know Satan is here from the book of Job and the Gospels, 
He and others are bound here,


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

It does appear that all reprobates must go somewhere othre than the Lake of Fire to await their judgement on Judgement Day.
Even Satan isn't in he!! yet.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> The “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as the God of the Old Testament. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places. “I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4). “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.
> 
> All I know for sure is that Jesus is God, The Father is God, and there is but one God.



I think I understand better. God is eternal but his reign as our God has a beginning and end. Maybe it's the beginning and end of our earthly existance that God means he is the Alpha and Omega.

Would you say part of God's image is flesh?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Tartarus was the innermost keep of Hades, or the high security area of the place of the dead.
> 
> There is one formerly know as Lucifer, with many names, Adversary where we get Satan from arabic, Devil from Greek, etc.
> 
> ...


 
We know he was here in the book of Job and the Gospels, but that doesn't prove he hasn't been cast into the lake of fire now. And it doesn't narrow him down to a single " boogeyman". Who is the satan? Where did he come from and show scripture? thanks.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say part of God's image is flesh?


 
 Im not sure I understand the question. My first reaction is no, I think flesh is representative of this world and it stays in this world, dust to dust.


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I understand better. God is eternal but his reign as our God has a beginning and end. Maybe it's the beginning and end of our earthly existance that God means he is the Alpha and Omega.
> 
> Would you say part of God's image is flesh?



Not our flesh, if you use the word fashion or manner instead of image it removes  the flesh from the conversation.  Jesus was God in a body.

God reigns all , in time and outside of time.

There is a beginning and end to time and physical space or the holding cell and the opportunity to repent.

The "age" of "physical life"  will end, spiritual life continues


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## welderguy (Jul 25, 2015)

One thing that gives me trouble about Jesus' flesh ending in this world is that in His risen body, although He went through the walls of the upper chamber, He told Thomas to touch the prints of the nails and thrust his hand into His side.He also dined with His disciples at the shore on broiled fish.

These events tell me that Jesus' risen body still had some physical "fleshly" characteristics, although spiritual also.Am I missing something?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

welderguy said:


> One thing that gives me trouble about Jesus' flesh ending in this world is that in His risen body, although He went through the walls of the upper chamber, He told Thomas to touch the prints of the nails and thrust his hand into His side.He also dined with His disciples at the shore on broiled fish.
> 
> These events tell me that Jesus' risen body still had some physical "fleshly" characteristics, although spiritual also.Am I missing something?


 
Below is the prophecy of Christs resurrection in the flesh, and the completed verse of confirmation. In these verses we also see that Sheol/Hades were the same places and Christ did indeed go there upon His death, but was not left there. 

 Christ was the only one to have a bodily resurrection the bible makes it clear that everyone else will be raised in spirit.


Psalm 16:10 For you will not leave my soul in sheol; neither will you allow your Holy One to see corruption.


Acts 2:31 He seeing this before spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hades, neither his flesh did see corruption.


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## welderguy (Jul 25, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Below is the prophecy of Christs resurrection in the flesh, and the completed verse of confirmation. In these verses we also see that Sheol/Hades were the same places and Christ did indeed go there upon His death, but was not left there.
> 
> Christ was the only one to have a bodily resurrection the bible makes it clear that everyone else will be raised in spirit.
> 
> ...



These verses show that Jesus' body was not left in the grave to corrupt.It was raised up the third day.Not sure what else you're trying to show by them.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

welderguy said:


> These verses show that Jesus' body was not left in the grave to corrupt.It was raised up the third day.Not sure what else you're trying to show by them.


 
 It has to do with him resurrecting in the flesh, look at the cev.

Psalm 16: 10 I am your chosen one.
You won’t leave me in the grave
or let my body decay.


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## welderguy (Jul 25, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> It has to do with him resurrecting in the flesh, look at the cev.
> 
> Psalm 16: 10 I am your chosen one.
> You won’t leave me in the grave
> or let my body decay.



So we agree that Jesus' resurrected body was physical as well as spiritual?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

welderguy said:


> So we agree that Jesus' resurrected body was physical as well as spiritual?



I hope so, I've never denied Jesus' physical resurrection.


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

welderguy said:


> One thing that gives me trouble about Jesus' flesh ending in this world is that in His risen body, although He went through the walls of the upper chamber, He told Thomas to touch the prints of the nails and thrust his hand into His side.He also dined with His disciples at the shore on broiled fish.
> 
> These events tell me that Jesus' risen body still had some physical "fleshly" characteristics, although spiritual also.Am I missing something?



We know Jesus resurrected His fleshly body. It was proof thst His words were true. We also know "This same Jesus" will return, so perhaps the physical type body will return, as you say.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> We know Jesus resurrected His fleshly body. It was proof thst His words were true. We also know "This same Jesus" will return, so perhaps the physical type body will return, as you say.


 
 That same Jesus was the same Jesus before He was born of the flesh and is that same Jesus today, and obviously a change in appearance has taken place since the ascension. Johns description of Him in Revelation is not that of a Jewish man.

Revelation 1: <SUP class=versenum>12 </SUP>When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands. <SUP class=versenum>13 </SUP>There with the lampstands was someone who seemed to be the Son of Man.<SUP class=footnote data-fn="#fen-CEV-28596f" data-link='[f]'>[f]</SUP> He was wearing a robe that reached down to his feet, and a gold cloth was wrapped around his chest. <SUP class=versenum>14 </SUP>His head and his hair were white as wool or snow, and his eyes looked like flames of fire. <SUP class=versenum>15 </SUP>His feet were glowing like bronze being heated in a furnace, and his voice sounded like the roar of a waterfall. <SUP class=versenum>16 </SUP>He held seven stars in his right hand, and a sharp double-edged sword was coming from his mouth. His face was shining as bright as the sun at noon.


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## welderguy (Jul 25, 2015)

Something definitely took place when Jesus was ushered into heaven.He was crowned King and glorified by the Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

If Jesus was God and God's side was pierced then God is flesh. We are made in God's image. Part of that image is flesh. It matters not that God wasn't yet flesh when he said to Jesus "let us make man in our image" as God isn't limited by time. He foreknew the he would come to earth in a body. Our man existence has to have some image or likeness of God. We were made in God's image.
God was the man Jesus. 100% God and 100% man. 

Jesus was the image of God. We were made in the image of God. Is it maybe two different Hebrew or Greek words for "image" that could explain a difference?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Something definitely took place when Jesus was ushered into heaven.He was crowned King and glorified by the Father.



Do you believe Jesus is with his Father in Heaven? Did he park his body(canister) at the gates awaiting his return trip to the earth?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

Zech 12:10 “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, [h]the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn

In Christ, God had a human body and now has a glorified, immortal
human body. We were made in the image of God. Jesus wasn't made in the image of man.


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

God was on the Cross, not theTrinity,

but ;

1Co 15:50
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.


Flesh and blood  is physical

1Co 15:51
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

 1Co 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

 1Co 15:53
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
 1Co 15:54
So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> God was on the Cross, not theTrinity,
> 
> but ;
> 
> ...



What do you mean by "God was on the cross, not the Trinity?" I thought it was the Jesus part of the Trinity that was on the cross, not God. If God became Jesus this is Oneness and I agree that the Trinity wasn't on the cross.

Those verses you mentioned above, "at the last trump" something of an apparent physical nature takes place. Something more than the time between our physical death and "at the last trump."
If we were already a spirit and came to earth as a body, what is about to happen is a bit of a mystery. We will not all sleep. We've already been a spirit. We've already got a soul. We've recently gave up our physical bodies.
At the last trump something along the lines of this will happen;
the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Now if we've already left our dead physical bodies in spirit form it has to be something more. I don't really know what it will be. Perhaps bodies of flesh and bones. Maybe a bionic body. Maybe a body with more sensory points to better enjoys Heaven or to better feel eternal punishment.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

Becoming a spirit isn't much of a mystery. Being raised incorruptible from physical death and gaining immortality is a bit of a mystery.
In fact just becoming immortal is a bit of a mystery. Going from eternal death to everlasting life. Wow!


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Becoming a spirit isn't much of a mystery. Being raised incorruptible from physical death and gaining immortality is a bit of a mystery.
> In fact just becoming immortal is a bit of a mystery. Going from eternal death to everlasting life. Wow!


You did not become eternal. You were created eternal , and because of sin you were condemned.  You are an eternal being , whether in Heaven or CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> What do you mean by "God was on the cross, not the Trinity?" I thought it was the Jesus part of the Trinity that was on the cross, not God. If God became Jesus this is Oneness and I agree that the Trinity wasn't on the cross.
> 
> Those verses you mentioned above, "at the last trump" something of an apparent physical nature takes place. Something more than the time between our physical death and "at the last trump."
> If we were already a spirit and came to earth as a body, what is about to happen is a bit of a mystery. We will not all sleep. We've already been a spirit. We've already got a soul. We've recently gave up our physical bodies.
> ...



There was a doctrinal heresy problem in the early church regarding the Trinity on the cross and that GOD died there.

It was corrected but  I stressed it here. God as a Trinity is separable, as Jesus show us on the Cross.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You did not become eternal. You were created eternal , and because of sin you were condemned.  You are an eternal being , whether in Heaven or CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored.



Eternal; 
lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

How is it possible for God to "create" something "eternal?"

But let's say that I was a created spirit before I became a man. That when I die a physical death I return to being just a created spirit again. What is the mystery in that? 
Most people believe that when we die a physical death we continue to exist in the spiritual world. What is the mystery in that?
Now if we are raised on the last day in a changed incorruptible, immortal body, to everlasting life; 
that is a mystery.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

Is it OK in Christianity to worship a God whose image is made to look like a man?


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## marketgunner (Jul 25, 2015)

You have to think "in or out of time"

Time and space , the physical universe, began when Satan fell,   We existed and will continue to exist through age. Consider time a countdown.

It is not a mystery to us, They were being told there was no Resurrection of the dead. There were questioning their recent dead and were questioning Jesus resurrection.

The mystery is revealed by the spirit, they were only considering physical evidence


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

If God is an invisible Spirit and Jesus is an eternal always being with his Father as a separable mode of the Trinity, how did they communicate?
If Jesus was a separable part of the Godhead, what made up his separable part? Has he always had a separate spirit capable of communicating with his Father? Capable of helping his Father create?
Must the invisible God manifest as other entities in order for other spirits or angels to see him?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You have to think "in or out of time"
> 
> Time and space , the physical universe, began when Satan fell,   We existed and will continue to exist through age. Consider time a countdown.
> 
> ...



I would think eternal would mean out of time. If God created our spirits in or out of time, they have a beginning and are thus not eternal.
If we were once angels, we were created. In or out of time matters not.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 25, 2015)

Oneness;
9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people, but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11). 

      The Word; 
                                                                                                                                  John 1 beautifully teaches the concept of God manifest in flesh. In the beginning was the Word(Greek, Logos). The Word was not a separate person or a separate god any more than a man’s word is a separate person from him. Rather the Word was the thought, plan, or mind of God. The Word was with God in the beginning and actually was God Himself(John 1:1). The Incarnation existed in the mind of God before the world began. Indeed, in the mind of
God the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the
world (I Peter 1:1920; Revelation 13:8)

In Greek usage, logos can mean the expression or plan as it exists in the mind of the proclaimer—as a play in the mind of a playwright—or it can mean the
thought as uttered or otherwise physically expressed asa play that is enacted on stage.

Jesus was God from the beginning of his human life.

http://www.apostolic-voice.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/the-oneness-of-god.pdf


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Oneness;
> 9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people, but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).
> 
> The Word;
> ...


This belief steps over so much bible context. All that is mentioned concerning "firstborn".


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 26, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Oneness;
> 9. He came to His own creation and to His own chosen people, but they did not recognize Him or receive Him (John 1:10-11).
> 
> The Word;
> ...


May I point out another way to look at these verses. This can easily been seen. Just not accepted. John begans to make a play on words. The he and him came prematurely by the translators. It should have been "it". Some early translations got it right. John brings our mind to the creativeness of God and how he uses the light, the sun. Almost everything requires the light, and even if it did not directly, it's universe does indirectly. John starts off talking about the "light" referencing as "it" not "him", and this can been seen as he directly says "light" several times. Nothing has been made without the light. John is speaking of creation..... setting up the introduction, the parallel of how nothing was made concerning the new creation if not through Jesus. Verification of this which can't be denied is that John says "He is not the light". If the popular translation were correct, then John is telling us he is not God. Why would John need tell his audience that he was not God?. Verification that the popular translation is wrong. Back to the point, John slowly brings us to the parallel of Jesus as being as the light in terms of the new creation, The true light that gives light was coming into the world. Verse 10, John introduces us to "Jesus". He makes the parallel that he has been setting up. Problem is that the translators inserted him into the text before John intended causing his parallel to be ruined. This is not talking about God coming into the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 26, 2015)

eternal; having no beginning or end.

immortal; could be created but does not die. Everlasting life. Immortals can become mortal and loose everlasting life.

God; an eternal being.

Adam; was created immortal. Lost his immortality at the fall. Before the fall he had everlasting life. After the fall he surely must die.

Man; created mortal after the fall. Surely he must die. He must believe in Jesus and be born again to take on immortality otherwise he'll die. This creation and death of man is his everything body, soul, and spirit. If if one believes man's soul lives forever in He11 it still was never eternal but is everlasting. Sometimes we use eternal for everlasting which isn't correct. Created souls could be everlasting but not eternal. 

Trinitarian Jesus; eternal and always with his Father but a separate mode in spirit, not physical yet. I don't understand what part of the man Jesus was eternal. I would assume not his man soul/spirit. Was the soul/spirit of the man Jesus with God the Father from the beginning of Creation? Where is the soul/spirit of the man Jesus now? Did the man Jesus even have his own soul/spirit? When did he acquire this soul/spirit at his physical birth?

Oneness Jesus; was only with God at creation in his Word/mind/plan. Jesus wasn't a separate mode of the Godhead. God the Father became Jesus at the Incarnation. God himself became a man. The "One" true God. Not the Trinitarian God divided into 3 separate but equal modes. "The" God became man. "The" God became Jesus. He shared his container(body) with the man Jesus.
Jesus was 100% God and 100% man. Jesus had a divine spirit and a human spirit. The spirit/soul of the man Jesus didn't exist before the incarnation. 
They believe God the Father literally, spiritually, and physically became Jesus. When God the Father became Jesus, he stayed Jesus. When we go to Heaven we'll see God in the mode of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Jesus. Jesus only is often used to describe Oneness. 
At the resurrection of Jesus, the man's soul/spirit re-entered Jesus with the spirit of God. The spirit that is God and the soul of Jesus indwells in the body of Christ and is seated on the Throne of heaven. There is only one Throne. Being at the right hand of God is figurative. Jesus isn't with God, he is God.
Really important is that God's name has always been Jesus. 

Christian Unitarian Jesus; believe Jesus is the only way, truth, and light for salvation but they don't believe Jesus is God. They do believe he was the Messiah and used the power of God to perform miracles, etc.
Their beliefs differ on exactly who Jesus is from supernatural being, adopted Son of God, actual Son of God, prophet, but not God incarnated. 
They feel the Trinity belief takes away from there being only one God. At least Oneness doesn't do that. 
Jesus was indwelled by the fullness of the Godhead. He had the full spirit of God indwelling in him. Many believe that Jesus literally became the son of God when he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. It is a mystery but somehow Jesus has half of his human DNA from God and half from his mother.
Many believe Jesus has a preexistence like Trinitarians and many believe that this preexistance was in the mind or Word of God. God being outside of time and God seeing everything as already happened.
Many believe Jesus became the Son of God at His baptism following:
Hebrews 1:5
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, "I will be his Father, and he will be my Son"?
Perhaps being anointed "the Christ" at this time. The Holy Spirit isn't seen as a separate part of God or the Ghost of Jesus but is just the spirit of God. Many believe Jesus received God's spirit at his baptism by way of anointing.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 26, 2015)

Art, Are we forced to choose one of those system of belief , or can we just state the obvious , that Jesus is God?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 26, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, Are we forced to choose one of those system of belief , or can we just state the obvious , that Jesus is God?



I don't believe God forces us to place ourselves in any of those categories or any other category other than "believer."
If one believes that Jesus is his Redeemer. If Jesus has taken on the sins of that individual. If God has called the individual and the person answers the call. If God has elected the believer than that person has salvation.

Those  categories are man's way of putting on a label. We like to be able to label everything. Music for instance. It has to be Country, Rock, R&B, etc. In reality all of those categories overlap with each other as with what we believe about Jesus. 
In actuality we all differ individually on how we see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We all differ individually on what image of his Father Jesus is. Is he still the same image of his Father now as when he walked the earth?
We are made in the image of God and Jesus. Perhaps just God. Perhaps to some this mean bodily because Jesus is God and Jesus had a body. We all differ on if Jesus had a separate soul and spirit from his Father. Was this separate spirit God's Spirit but in a different mode? Did the deity of Jesus have his own Spirit that is 1/3 of the Godhead? Did the man part of Jesus have his own human spirit/soul?

You are correct that we don't need to believe in the Trinity, Oneness, Christian Unitarian, or any other category  to define Jesus. We can define Jesus as the Son of God who died for our sins. 
We don't really need to know what part of Jesus died and what part of Jesus resurrected. We don't need to fully understand if it was his God nature or his human nature.
We don't need to fully understand what nature of Jesus went to the souls in prison when he died a physical death.
We don't need to fully understand if Jesus is in Heaven physically or spiritually. 
We can speculate and try to understand for our own peace of mind. We can try to justify how one God can be three equal parts of the Godhead. We can try to justify how One God who was incarnate man prayed to himself. We all question the other's beliefs because we feel we have read the scriptures and have come up with the correct justifications.
Just because a belief is orthodox such as a future coming or eternal burning in he11 doesn't mean it is the correct doctrine. Just look at works based salvation vs. grace only. That one split up the Church. Look at election vs freewill as another example.

In closing you don't have to believe that Jesus is his Father or that Jesus has always been with his Father and that is the part of the Godhead that became a man. You only have to believe that Jesus was the image of his Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:28
“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 

John 14:10
Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Acts 7:55-56
 55But being full of the Holy Spirit, he gazed intently into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God; 56and he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened up and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God."

Acts 10:42
He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

How do Trinitarians explain God anointing Jesus? Was God anointing just the 100% human nature of his Son? Was God just pleased with the 100% man nature of his Son? Was the 100% man nature of Jesus, the only part of Jesus that was God's Son? Was the eternal part of Jesus that has always been with God, also not his Son?

Acts 4:27
Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed.

Acts 10:38
how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and power, and how he went around doing good and healing all who were under the power of the devil, because God was with him.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 27, 2015)

Yes. It's still very difficult to put it "in our own words" isn't it.
We just know it, trust it, and put all our confidence in it.
Glad you're still here Art.


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## marketgunner (Jul 27, 2015)

Anointed just means "chosen for a purpose"

The human body was prepared for him

eb 10:5
¶
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

What ever Jesus was before the body was prepared, He was while i n the body. He did not need the Holy Spirit's  "choosing or power, He already had it.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 27, 2015)

I liked this, not my style, but I like it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

Ronnie T said:


> Yes. It's still very difficult to put it "in our own words" isn't it.
> We just know it, trust it, and put all our confidence in it.
> Glad you're still here Art.



Nice to hear from you too Bro. Ronnie.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

The belief I have the most trouble with is "eternal sonship." A coequal, second, uncreated, eternal being of the same Godhead.
This separate but equal entity leaving Heaven to become a man.
I don't see this concept in the eyes of the Old Testament people. 
Maybe Jesus wasn't presented to them in this manner but God revealed this to them later. 
I don't read that the Messiah was revealed to the Jews as always being with his Father. They would have thought it to be like worshiping two Gods. They saw God as only the Father.
I can understand God the Father becoming Jesus at his incarnation but I don't understand Jesus always being with God except as the Word.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> The belief I have the most trouble with is "eternal sonship." A coequal, second, uncreated, eternal being of the same Godhead.
> This separate but equal entity leaving Heaven to become a man.
> I don't see this concept in the eyes of the Old Testament people.
> Maybe Jesus wasn't presented to them in this manner but God revealed this to them later.
> ...


 
If Jews viewed God as the father, then who did they view as the son that gave Him the title Father?

 I know they often refered to God as the God of Abraham...so who was He the Father of according to Jews?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> If Jews viewed God as the father, then who did they view as the son that gave Him the title Father?
> 
> I know they often refered to God as the God of Abraham...so who was He the Father of according to Jews?



In regards to the preexistence, did the Jews refer to Jesus as Father or God of Abraham before he was the Son of Man? 
I'm trying to establish that Jesus preexisted as 1/3 of the Godhead in the minds of the Jews before he became the Son of Man. Did the Jews have this image of Jesus being with his Father before he came to Earth? That this 1/3 of the Godhead came to Earth as the eternal Son instead of the Father incarnate?
Maybe they were Oneness instead of Trinitarian.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

If Jesus preexisted, why did he have to wait until he became the Son of Man to ascend to the right hand of his Father? Jesus preexisted in the prophesy just as he did in Word. Daniel saw Jesus sitting next to his Father but he saw this as happening after he became the Son of Man. It would have been after Jesus became an exalted human being.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 27, 2015)

10 be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.

11 `This is the stone that was set at nought by you -- the builders, that became head of a corner;

12 and there is not salvation in any other, for there is no other name under the heaven that hath been given among men, in which it behoveth us to be saved.'

* By no other name are ye saved*

 JESUS IS THE SAVIOR!! 
You cannot call on the father, you cannot call on Jehova, or Elohim , or ABBA.
 JESUS! JESUS! JESUS! IS THE ONLY SAVIOR, NOW LOOK.

Jude 1:25. to the only wise God our Saviour, is glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen.

JESUS IS THE WISE GOD! 
 AMEN!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> 10 be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.
> 
> 11 `This is the stone that was set at nought by you -- the builders, that became head of a corner;
> 
> ...



Then do you believe as the Oneness believers that we should be baptized in the name of Jesus only?
It appears that God became Jesus and is now Jesus and this is how we will see God as "Jesus only."
Jesus is the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

I do believe that one must believe Jesus is the only way. I see my salvation as granted by God through the saving grace of his son, Jesus who is the literal son of God and Mary. I don't see Jesus as preexisting before he was born.
He might be God but he isn't a preexisting entity except in Word.
He might be the one and only God incarnate as man but he isn't 1/3 of a separate mode of the one true God that has always existed alongside the one true God. He hasn't always had a separate spirit that has co-existed with his Father's spirit. He might have become his Father's spirit at the Incarnation but he hasn't always had his own spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then do you believe as the Oneness believers that we should be baptized in the name of Jesus only?
> It appears that God became Jesus and is now Jesus and this is how we will see God as "Jesus only."


 
 I just believe what scripture provides and try to stay away from systems of understanding that Jesus is God. I know there is only one God. I know the Father and Jesus are God by what scripture tells me.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> 10 be it known to all of you, and to all the people of Israel, that in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye did crucify, whom God did raise out of the dead, in him hath this one stood by before you whole.
> 
> 11 `This is the stone that was set at nought by you -- the builders, that became head of a corner;
> 
> ...



How does these scriptures show that Jesus was a separate but equal 1/3 of the Godhead  before he became the Son of Man?
Jesus was the cornerstone in the form of his Father's Word which is the basis of Christianity. This prophesy came to pass when the King was born in Bethlehem. 
Did this King exist alongside God before? Before the Holy Spirit visited Mary?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

God of Abraham;

John 8:58
"Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

John 10:36
what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'?

This appears to be a Trinitarian problem with preexistence. Not so with Oneness.

In the Jewish mind though, they were more capable of looking at scriptural concepts outside of time explaining things as only in the Word and not always as actual preexistence.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

Daniel sees a human figure who is handed world dominion from the Father. Jesus also became or was born a High Priest. maybe we could explore this aspect of Jesus in relation to him being anointed as a High Priest. 
Was Jesus anointed by humans? Did Jesus become the image of God?
Was Jesus a representative of God as in the function of a son? In Jewish culture the son often took the place of his father in function or image. In function and fellowship, they were one.
When some people thought Jesus was claiming to be his Father, Jesus had to explain to them, in sonship only was he his Father.

We have Jesus as his Father in an exact image shown by sonship.

We have Jesus anointed as a High Priest. Jesus was many things.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

John 3:13
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.

John 6:62
Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!

If this proves preexistence then part of the image of God is flesh as John is talking about a man.

Maybe the spirit of the man Jesus preexisted. No man has ever done this except the Son of Man, Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

hobbs27 said:


> I just believe what scripture provides and try to stay away from systems of understanding that Jesus is God. I know there is only one God. I know the Father and Jesus are God by what scripture tells me.



Stay away from systems of understanding that Jesus is God?
Do you see the oneness of God as Unity instead of one? Unity such as a man and woman becoming one? God is one but in unity he is plural?
Such as the unity Jesus prayed to his Father concerning his disciples in John 17?
  “That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us ... that they may be one, even as We are one.” 
The unity Jesus talked about when he said;
 I ascend unto My Father, and Your Father, and to My God and your God.” 
The unity or oneness Jesus explained in  Matthew 20:23? “To sit on my right hand and on my left is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.” 
In Mark 13:32, Jesus said, “Of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.” 
In John 14:24, “The word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father’s which sent Me.”
In John 5:19 “The Son of man can do nothing of Himself, but what He seeth the Father do.”
In John 8:28: “I can do nothing of myself, but as My Father has taught Me, I speak these things.”
In John 5:31, Jesus said, “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. There is another that beareth witness of Me... The Father Himself, which hath sent Me, hath borne witness of me.”

Looking at these verses we see oneness as unity between the Father and Son but not Jesus being his Father. You see the answer to these  as Unity instead of Oneness.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

Oneness looks at the answer in a different way. They explain God as an invisible Spirit. That God became Jesus as the same one entity of God. God being spirit allowed him to be in Heaven, Earth, and Jesus incarnate being omnipresent. The incarnation allows man and the angels a way to see God.
When God said, “Let us make man in our image,” he could be looking into the future and seeing Jesus in the flesh. It could be other things but not a separation of the Godhead.
John 3:13 says, “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.” Even though Jesus was on earth, His Spirit was in heaven because His Spirit was the eternal God, not a separate but equal spirit.
They understand the different modes as the one God being in that mode to perform specific tasks/duties of the one God when he is in that mode.
Jesus’ seat at the right hand of the Father is figurative metaphor, and not literal. God, first of all, does not literally have a hand. God is a Spirit and doesn’t have a human body with human body parts. That Jesus is at the right hand of God refers to His position of authority and strength.
“Father” is a title, not a name. “Son” is a title, not a name. When the Scripture says we should baptize them “in the name” – singular – “of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” we should baptize them in that name, not in the titles. There is only one name given under heaven whereby we must be saved. What is that name? The name of Jesus!
“There is one body, and one Spirit... One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” (Ephesians 4:4-6).
When Jesus foretold the baptism of the Holy Spirit that would happen in Acts chapter 2, He said that the Holy Spirit “dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you” (John 14:16-17). It was Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 27, 2015)

Oneness proponents believe Jesus’ flesh limits the Father. Jesus’ flesh limits His Spirit. This is why Jesus doesn't know things the Father knows even though he is the Father.
Oneness believes the Spirit of Jesus is God's spirit(OP might be Oneness)  It was the Son of God who died, not the Father. Only the flesh of Jesus is the son of God.
Jesus was only in Heaven before his birth in spirit only, not flesh. This spirit was the spirit of God.(OP might be Oneness)
Jesus has one Spirit, which is the Father.(OP might be Oneness)
The Son is just flesh or a shell for the one true Spirit of God to dwell.
Jesus is divine only because his spirit is God's spirit. His human flesh is spiritless. 
Jesus wasn't anointed with the Holy Spirit because he is the Holy Spirit. (OP might be Oneness)
Jesus rather receives the manifestation of the Holy Ghost to do ministry, so He can serve as our example. 
Jesus is one being with the titles Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus is the name of each of these. The Father is Jesus’ Spirit and the Son is Jesus’ flesh. Jesus can be fully man and fully God, but Jesus is unified. Even Trinitarians have a problem explaining how Jesus is fully man and fully God. There are limits to the human language.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2015)

The God of the Bible is Spirit

       The Bible says God is spirit. In John 4:24 the Bible says, "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." God has substance but not a material substance and He is not a man nor ever was a man. John 4:24, defines God's substance as being spiritual. When Jesus appeared after His resurrection he explained to his disciples in Luke 24:39, "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." God then is spirit and is not a material being. There are many expressions in the Bible which refer to God as having the body parts of a man, but these are all hyperboles and symbolic statements. For example, God is said to be a burning fire, an eagle, and other symbols which relate to his actions and not to his material essence.


The God of the Bible is Invisible.

       The Bible says that God is invisible. Deut. 4:1-19, says that at Horeb God appeared to Israel. God reminds them that they did not see any form of God, but only heard His voice. God commands them not to corrupt themselves by making any image of Him referring to Him as either male of female, or after the likeness of any animal or after the sun, moon and stars. Isaiah 40:18 states the same truth, "To whom then will ye liken God? or what likeness will ye compare unto him?" God does not have gender as material men and women do. John 1:18, says that "No man hath seen God" In Romans 1:20, Col. 1;15, 1 Tim. 1:17, Paul says God is invisible being a Spirit. 1 Timothy 6:16, says, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen." Thus the Bible is clear in teaching that God being a spirit is invisible and cannot be seen my material men. 

       The Bible does say however in some passages that men did see God. Is this a contradiction? The answer is no. God appeared to men in physical form so that men could see him, but they did not see God in his true essence, but saw only a reflection or manifestation of God. John 1:32, says that Spirit can be manifested in visible form. In Genesis 16:7-14, the Bible says the angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar. This is referred to as a "theophany" which means an appearance of God in human form. Exodus 3:1f says that the angel of the Lord appeared to Moses in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush (Ex. 3:2). Thus, the flame Moses saw in the midst of the bush revealed God's presence, but not His true essence. The flame Moses saw did not represent what God looks like anymore that when God appeared as a man. God used these forms so as to appear to men in some visible form they could see.

http://bible-truth.org/whoisgod.htm


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## marketgunner (Jul 29, 2015)

don't copy and paste long posts, too many words to read, I'd rather read your words

Do you think Jesus was the son of God  while in Heaven before He came to earth?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> don't copy and paste long posts, too many words to read, I'd rather read your words
> 
> Do you think Jesus was the son of God  while in Heaven before He came to earth?



No, do you think God was a man who went to Heaven from earth to become God?


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## marketgunner (Jul 29, 2015)

no, He was GOD, who had a body prepared for Him to deal with sinners.

So you agree God the Son was not a Son of God but  became a Son of God when He became a son of man.?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> no, He was GOD, who had a body prepared for Him to deal with sinners.
> 
> So you agree God the Son was not a Son of God but  became a Son of God when He became a son of man.?



No not really. I don't believe Jesus was God the Son. I believe Jesus was the Son of God who didn't become the literal Son of God until he was conceived by God's spirit and his virgin Mother. When the Son of God was born, he became the Son of Man. He was the actual son of God and Mary. He was the 2nd Adam. Much like Adam was a son of God. He wasn't God except by God breathing into his nostrils. He became a living soul. Jesus became the exact image of God. He was the exact representative of God as in Sonship. He represented God through Sonship. If you saw Jesus, you saw his Father.

Jesus only pre existed in the way God works out of time or beyond time. God knew me before I was born. This doesn't make me eternal. I didn't exist until I was conceived. I didn't have an eternal spirit yet God knew me. 
I was in his word, mind, plan. It's possible God could actually talk to me before I was conceived since he isn't restricted by time just as he might have talked to Jesus. Jesus was the Word.

Jesus did everything through his Father receiving all power and authority from his Father. He was given Kingship over his Father's creation. Everything he taught was about his Father's Kingdom. His Father was greater than he was. His Father knew things he didn't know. His Father raised him form the dead. He ascended to his Father. He is literally next to his Father in Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:24 
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.


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## marketgunner (Jul 29, 2015)

You  can exist outside of time, too

so you find Him to be a created being?


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 29, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> No not really. I don't believe Jesus was God the Son. I believe Jesus was the Son of God who didn't become the literal Son of God until he was conceived by God's spirit and his virgin Mother. When the Son of God was born, he became the Son of Man. He was the actual son of God and Mary. He was the 2nd Adam. Much like Adam was a son of God. He wasn't God except by God breathing into his nostrils. He became a living soul. Jesus became the exact image of God. He was the exact representative of God as in Sonship. He represented God through Sonship. If you saw Jesus, you saw his Father.
> 
> Jesus only pre existed in the way God works out of time or beyond time. God knew me before I was born. This doesn't make me eternal. I didn't exist until I was conceived. I didn't have an eternal spirit yet God knew me.
> I was in his word, mind, plan. It's possible God could actually talk to me before I was conceived since he isn't restricted by time just as he might have talked to Jesus. Jesus was the Word.
> ...



So how do you then explain John 1.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing made that was made.


Sounds to me like Jesus existed since the beginning of whatever was the beginning, and He was responsible for everything that was created.   How then, could He not have existed before He was conceived by Mary?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You  can exist outside of time, too
> 
> so you find Him to be a created being?



Can God not look outside of time and see who will become the elect? Will God not protect his elect until they receive regeneration by the Holy Spirit? Even while they are still reprobates? Yes in God's Word I can exist out of time.

Yes, I find all men to be created. God alone is eternal. Jesus was created by God the Father and his virgin  Mother. He was indwelled by God's Spirit in a special way that no man has ever experienced. He had the very nature of God. The exact image. God was literally his Father. He was the actual mysteriously concieved Son of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 29, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> So how do you then explain John 1.
> 
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing made that was made.
> 
> ...



I explain it the same way Oneness believers explain it. Jesus wasn't a preexisting 1/3 of the Godhead. He only existed in God's word/plan/image. I'm not Oneness but they do a better job of explaining that Jesus didn't preexist. Oneness believes that God the Father became Jesus at his incarnation. Jesus wasn't the Son of God before he became the Son of Man. 
I would believe in Oneness over Trinitarian as I don't believe Jesus has always been with his Father as a separate but equal 1/3 of the eternal Godhead.
God becoming Jesus is way more believable than Jesus always being with his Father. They also believe everything was created through Jesus not by Jesus. God foreknew Jesus would be his Son and Messiah. Everything God created was for and through Jesus. It's that operating our of time thing again.


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## NE GA Pappy (Jul 29, 2015)

Takes a lot of twisting to make that scripture say what you want it to say, rather than what it says, don't it?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Takes a lot of twisting to make that scripture say what you want it to say, rather than what it says, don't it?



Yes it does. Mostly by adding to scripture more than it really says. At some point some of our beliefs are speculation regardless of Trinitarian, Oneness, or Unitarian. At some point we are all guilty of adding to what is not there instead of just letting the mystery be.

Jesus said "I ascend unto My Father, and Your Father, and to My God and your God.” 

I'll just take his word that he knows who his Father and his God is and worship my Father and my God the same as Jesus did. If it was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Takes a lot of twisting to make that scripture say what you want it to say, rather than what it says, don't it?



It takes a lot of denominational twisting to make scripture say what the particular denomination wants it to say rather than reading the scripture for one's self without wearing denominational glasses. By removing one's denominational indoctrination, one can test the spirits. The denomination might be right but if you don't test all the spirits, how do you know? You can always put those glasses back on if that particular spirit test true.
I've been testing the "Election" and "Preterism" spirits lately having been indoctrinated a free will Futurist.
Oh and Pre-mortal existence of man spirits. Wondering now if I'm eternal.


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## marketgunner (Jul 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can God not look outside of time and see who will become the elect? Will God not protect his elect until they receive regeneration by the Holy Spirit? Even while they are still reprobates? Yes in God's Word I can exist out of time.
> 
> Yes, I find all men to be created. God alone is eternal. Jesus was created by God the Father and his virgin  Mother. He was indwelled by God's Spirit in a special way that no man has ever experienced. He had the very nature of God. The exact image. God was literally his Father. He was the actual mysteriously concieved Son of God.



you are only considering your POV, God is outside of Time. Period, He doesn't have to look through time, He and you can see all of time, when you are outside.

Time is a byproduct of Space and only a countdown to God's continued judgment.  Time only exists because of Sin.

Jesus exist outside of time as GOD, He never claimed to be the Son of God only referring to Himself as the son of man


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> you are only considering your POV, God is outside of Time. Period, He doesn't have to look through time, He and you can see all of time, when you are outside.
> 
> Time is a byproduct of Space and only a countdown to God's continued judgment.  Time only exists because of Sin.
> 
> Jesus exist outside of time as GOD, He never claimed to be the Son of God only referring to Himself as the son of man



If God is not limited by time, and as you believe I don't think he is, how do you know he wasn't talking to Jesus this way or that he wasn't talking to himself when he became "God the Father incarnate as man?"

If Jesus never claimed to be the Son of God then perhaps Oneness is right in that Jesus was God the Father incarnate.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

God not bound by time might have been talking to himself as God the Father incarnate as Jesus.  
                                                                                                                   Oneness, Unity, Trinity, Possibly?


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## marketgunner (Jul 30, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> God not bound by time might have been talking to himself as God the Father incarnate as Jesus.
> Oneness, Unity, Trinity, Possibly?




 simple

Phl 2:7
But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> simple
> 
> Phl 2:7
> But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:



I'm glad you mentioned this verse. "form" is used in verse 7 and verse 6;

6who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.

Form of God, likeness of men. Jesus was in the "form" of God and the "likeness" of men. he was also in the "form" of a bond-servant."

Form of God; nature or essence of God.

Jesus was in the form of God. It didn't say God was in the form of man. God was in the likeness of man.

This could show that Jesus was the embodiment of the invisible Spirit of God. The incarnation or enfleshment of God. God did not conceive an Eternal Son.

Sonship is the product of conception. Before Jesus was conceived as a human, God was bodiless. God was only spirit. One undivided Spirit. 

Hey, maybe we are both Oneness!


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

I've been reading about Jesus being begotten and not created.
Jesus was of the substance of the Father so that in his very nature, he is God. He was the nature or essence of God. 

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2015)

CREATED 

                                                                                                                          Hebrews 11:3
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

“In the formation of our world, God was not indebted to pre-existing matter."


BEGOTTEN
Genesis 3:16
“Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.” 

It is when something comes out of another thing existing before it. Any begotten thing or creature has to have a source from which it stems. This source is not nothing (as in creation). Anyone who is begotten has come out of a begetter, therefore showing that there are two involved in the process.

The scriptures speaks of the "Son of God" and the "only begotten Son," whereas the terms God the Son and 'eternal Son' are non biblical. 
The doctrine of the Trinity identifies Jesus as God the Son. In these teachings, God the Son pre-existed before incarnation, is co-eternal with God the Father (and the Holy Spirit), both before Creation and after the End.


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## marketgunner (Jul 31, 2015)

begotten just means "become the ancestor of"


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## marketgunner (Jul 31, 2015)

How would the angel Gabriel view God the Son, before and after incarnation?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 31, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> How would the angel Gabriel view God the Son, before and after incarnation?



Or did Gabriel know Christ as 1/3 of the Godhead before this 1/3 of the Godhead became the Son of God?

From a Trinitarian view he had to know the pre-existing eternal Son of God. From a Oneness view he knew the one and only God who became the Son of God at the incarnation of the one and only God the Father;

"He shall be (not is!) great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David; and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end" (Luke 1:32-33). 

From a Christian Unitarian view he he didn't know the Son of God  before or at this message delievery. He knew him after his conception as being exactly as he explained it. The Son of God and Mary his virgin Mother.


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## marketgunner (Aug 1, 2015)

your still only considering a humans point of view, 

Before the Lucifer's fall, How would Gabriel know God who became flesh and blood?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> your still only considering a humans point of view,
> 
> Before the Lucifer's fall, How would Gabriel know God who became flesh and blood?



First I apologize if I placed man's category of Trinitarian on you if it's a different belief than yours. All of the categories overlap each other.
I guess I'm too fleshy and not thinking as a spirit so I can't really follow how you are leading me to understand.
I just assumed you believed the Son of God has always existed in that mode or third person of the Godhead.

I can't picture what you are trying to get me to see.
I don't really know how God, Lucifer, angels, and all of the host of Heaven see each other. I'm not real sure how spirits communicate. Were they all able to communicate outside of time? Have we always been able to communicate with God outside of time?

Now if you are leading me to believe Gabriel knew God who would eventually become flesh and blood then I would have to say he knew him as God the Father. If you are trying to show me in some other way Christ existed as 1/3 of the Godhead separately before becoming the Son of God, then I don't understand that concept.
I was raised and indoctrinated a Trinitarian and I can tell you for sure beyond a shadow of doubt that they believe Christ has always been the Son of God. Even before his incarnation into the Son of Man.


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## marketgunner (Aug 1, 2015)

There is no such thing as 1/3 Godhead.  

 There was no God the Father (except the Father of all) until God became the son.    Hebrews.
Since God rules all, whether in time our out, communication is not a problem.

Gabriel hasn't changed, God hasn't changed.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> There is no such thing as 1/3 Godhead.
> 
> There was no God the Father (except the Father of all) until God became the son.    Hebrews.
> Since God rules all, whether in time our out, communication is not a problem.
> ...



Thanks, I understand your view a whole lot better now. I can see your belief in the unity or oneness of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit meaning God.
I can now see what Gabriel saw through your eyes. The answer is God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2015)

marketgunner;

In what name should one get baptized? In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? Would it really matter either way if the person knew what baptism represents?


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## marketgunner (Aug 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> marketgunner;
> 
> In what name should one get baptized? In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? Would it really matter either way if the person knew what baptism represents?



One name,not three, of God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit. 

and it is not  the "name"used but name is the power and authority . like "I arrest you in the name of the Law".


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## welderguy (Aug 2, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> marketgunner;
> 
> In what name should one get baptized? In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit or in the name of Jesus only? Would it really matter either way if the person knew what baptism represents?



Matthew 28:19
'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2015)

welderguy said:


> Matthew 28:19
> 'Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost"



At baptism we enter into a covenant relationship with God the Father. The sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, makes that covenant relationship possible. The Holy Spirit is the means by which the Father and Son make all of this possible.
God the Father is the One who calls us to baptism. Jesus Christ died as a sacrifice for our sins, reconciling us to God.
The Holy Spirit is what makes us God’s begotten children.

I see Oneness and yet separation.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> One name,not three, of God, the Father, Son, Holy Spirit.
> 
> and it is not  the "name"used but name is the power and authority . like "I arrest you in the name of the Law".



I've read that it means authority. In Acts there are a five verses that say "in the name of Jesus Christ" starting with Peter at the Pentecost. 
Do we know by using other verses exactly how the apostles baptized others?

Acts 19:3-5
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Regardless of which formula, one is still baptized in the authority of God by the sacrifice of Christ. With the revealing by the Holy Spirit.


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## marketgunner (Aug 3, 2015)

explain "revealing by the Holy Spirit" in regard to Baptism.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> explain "revealing by the Holy Spirit" in regard to Baptism.



Romans 8:16
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.


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## hawglips (Aug 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> I see Oneness and yet separation.



This is seen everywhere in the scriptures.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2015)

hawglips said:


> This is seen everywhere in the scriptures.



So true, here is a perfect example;

John 17:21-23
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.


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## marketgunner (Aug 4, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:16
> The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.



In regards to Baptism though?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> In regards to Baptism though?



Wouldn't the Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit be from his indwelling and regeneration having received the Spirit of adoption as sons. Then we start producing the fruit of the Holy Spirit.

It appears that within our discussions when you see Oneness I see the Trinity and when you see the Trinity, I see Oneness. When you see unity, I see separation and when I see unity, you see separation.

It's like when two people argue over grace and works and it eventually sounds like they are arguing each others points.


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## marketgunner (Aug 4, 2015)

what has all that got to do with Baptism?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> what has all that got to do with Baptism?



Isn't our baptism the start of our unity with God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?

John 17:21-23
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

The Holy Spirit moves in with our spirit at baptism. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit testifies with our spirit. This marks our new birth spiritually which starts the process of regeneration that will allow us to be in unity with God and Jesus as he explained it in John 17:21-23.

If we came from Heaven as you and others believe, the Holy Spirit testifying with our spirit is the start of our regeneration that will allow us to return home and to be in perfect unity with God and his Son, Jesus.
We can all become unified in each other through God and Jesus. Separate, yet unified like in marriage. Oneness yet Unitarian.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2015)

Regeneration;

2 Corinthians 3:18
So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.

Y'all remember what "image" means. The Bible is full of Oneness and Unity!


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## marketgunner (Aug 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't our baptism the start of our unity with God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
> 
> John 17:21-23
> 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.
> ...



no Baptism is not.  It is a sign to the WORLD that you have aligned with Christ, not a sign to Christ, He already knows


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## marketgunner (Aug 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Regeneration;
> 
> 2 Corinthians 3:18
> So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
> ...



Baptism is not regeneration.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> no Baptism is not.  It is a sign to the WORLD that you have aligned with Christ, not a sign to Christ, He already knows



God already knew from the foundation of the world. Baptism to me is spiritual not getting dunked or sprinkled with water.
When a person is spiritually born again, (baptized in the Spirit) the Holy Spirit moves in and testifies with our spirit. In that exact moment which happens at our new spiritual birth, we become a child of God. We are then regenerated by the Holy Spirit as a child of God. 
When we were physically born, we were born of water. Our second birth is when we are born of spirit. This is when the Holy Spirit moves into our physical bodies and testifies with our spirits that we are children of God.
I think a lot happens in that moment of rebirth. Salvation, regeneration, santification, and on & on. Now I do agree that it is a start of the regeneration process but the actual "new birth" happened at our spiritual baptism.

I do agree that baptism is not salvation, sanctification, or regeneration. Not even spiritual baptism or rebirth. It is a sign. It is a sign to more than the "world" though. Spiritual baptism that is. If the Holy Spirit is going to testify that we are a child of God then I would say it's more than a sign to the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> no Baptism is not.  It is a sign to the WORLD that you have aligned with Christ, not a sign to Christ, He already knows



OK then who is the Holy Spirit testifying to that we are Children of God? I don't recall saying that it was a sign to Christ or the World. Just that it is the start of our Unity. 
The Holy Spirit is testifying with our spirit that we are children of God. In other words the Holy Spirit is testifying to us.

The Holy Spirit also is testifying to us about Christ's sacrifice and the start of our regeneration or sanctification;

Hebrews 10:14-15
14For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. 15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> Baptism is not regeneration.



I don't recall saying that it was.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Regeneration;
> 
> 2 Corinthians 3:18
> So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.
> ...



Exaltation? I'm just asking. I mentioned these verses as regeneration not baptism so what is happening in these two verses? If Jesus is the image of the invisible God and we shall bear the image of Jesus, what then is "image?"


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

As we discuss "image' and we all know that Jesus is the image of his Father, how can that mean that he is his Father if it doesn't mean the same thing if we become the image of the Heavenly man?

How can you say Jesus being the image of his Father means he is his Father if my being the image of the heavenly man doesn't mean that I am Jesus?


1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Exaltation? Regeneration? Image? Unity?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

John 17:21-23
21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 

Exaltation? Regeneration? Image? Unity?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2015)

It appears that if we came from Heaven or even if we were created souls that we are now placed in human bodies for a quest/journey. 
This physical journey is a mystery because along the way we are born again spiritually. We are born once of water and then again as a new spirit. 
This is where our journey gets interesting as we regenerate or whatever you want to call it, we begin our quest to become the image of the Heavenly man. The mystery is the Heavenly man is made in the image of his Heavenly Father. 
Most importantly is that His Father is our Father and his God is our God.
Now I can't say that none of us really know exactly what all that means but I do know that beyond a shadow of a doubt that when Jesus returns we shall see him as he is and become like him. It's still a mystery. It hasn't been revealed yet. I would assume it has something to do with Unity and Image.

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.


2 Corinthians 3:18
So all of us who have had that veil removed can see and reflect the glory of the Lord. And the Lord--who is the Spirit--makes us more and more like him as we are changed into his glorious image.

1 Corinthians 15:49
And just as we have borne the image of the earthly man, so shall we bear the image of the heavenly man.


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## marketgunner (Aug 6, 2015)

You came from Heaven as the bad guys, the sinners who fell (were expelled)with Satan

Being born of Water is physical birth, we have to be born again, spiritually, to inherit the kingdom. 

This implies there are those that are not yet born physically that do not have the opportunity to be born again.

Being a man is not the goal of Heaven.

sin is the cause of mankind to exist.
sin is the cause for a place (space and time) for mankind to exist.
The purpose for mankind is the method where by one death all may be saved.  
without sin, there would not be a reason for flesh and blood to exist


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> You came from Heaven as the bad guys, the sinners who fell (were expelled)with Satan
> 
> Being born of Water is physical birth, we have to be born again, spiritually, to inherit the kingdom.
> 
> ...



Please explain how sin is the cause of mankind to exist. Do we know from scripture this is why God made man and a place for us to exist?
I've heard he knew we would sin before he created us but I've never heard that sin was the reason God made man. That sinning spirits needed a body of flesh and blood to do what, redeem? Regenerate? Become the image of the Heavenly man?


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## marketgunner (Aug 6, 2015)

Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

 Col 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Heb 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
 Heb 2:15
And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
 Heb 2:16
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

mankind, the shared flesh and blood, is the method whereby God can offer salvation to sinful spiritual beings who do not have a brotherhood relationship. Each of the elohyim (heavenly hosts) are individual unique creations of God.  
The souls of man are the fallen sinful beings that need salvation. God uses man to accomplish this through one death, Jesus Christ.

and He told us plainly.

 Psa 82:2
How long will ye judge unjustly, and accept the persons of the wicked? Selah.
 Psa 82:3
Defend the poor and fatherless: do justice to the afflicted and needy.
 Psa 82:4
Deliver the poor and needy: rid them out of the hand of the wicked.
 Psa 82:5
They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
 Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
 Psa 82:7
But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.
 Psa 82:8
Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2015)

Thanks, that's a lot to think about right now. I'll start by sleeping on it. Maybe I can work "image" in there somewhere.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2015)

Psa 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

Were angels made in the image of God? If man was made in the image of God and our spirits are from angels then I would assume angels weren't made in the image of God. Otherwise man wasn't made in the image of God, he already was the image of God.
Yet scripture says man was made in the image of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2015)

If Jesus was made in the image of his Father and we will become the image of Jesus, what exactly does that mean?
Keep in mind also that Jesus took on the image of man.


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## welderguy (Aug 8, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet scripture says man was made in the scripture of God.



 HUH ??


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## marketgunner (Aug 9, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Psa 82:6
> I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.
> 
> Were angels made in the image of God? If man was made in the image of God and our spirits are from angels the I would assume angels weren't made in the image of God. Otherwise man wasn't made in the image of God, he already was the image of God.
> Yet scripture says man was made in the scripture of God.



you are 100% physical and 100% spiritual .  does that help?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2015)

welderguy said:


> HUH ??



I fixed it, thanks. It was late OK?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2015)

marketgunner said:


> you are 100% physical and 100% spiritual .  does that help?



Was my spirit eternal but my body & soul created when I became a man?


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## centerpin fan (Aug 10, 2015)

welderguy said:


> HUH ??



This could be the standard reply to much of what is posted on this forum.


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## marketgunner (Aug 10, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was my spirit eternal but my body & soul created when I became a man?



probably your psyche "spirit" or psychology and pnuema ,soul, are eternal, while your soma is your body.

Definitely the pnuema is eternal


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