# Restoring old gun



## Longstreet1 (Oct 29, 2009)

I have a old black powder double barrel we found in my wifes grandmas house. Does anyone knows who could restore it. Have'nt found any gunsmiths that deal with black powder.


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## SASS249 (Oct 29, 2009)

Might try Deercreek in Marietta


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## Cknerr (Oct 29, 2009)

I do....actaully that is my business.

Sending you an email. 

Take care,
Chris


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## TNGIRL (Oct 29, 2009)

I'd be interested in your restoration process. Could you post pictures or stories as you go? Maybe don't reveal any "trade secrets" you use but the over all business of the restoration job. It might help others in the future.


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## southerntaco98 (Oct 30, 2009)

I have a old flintlock pistol i found in my grandads attic.
Could you make it work?????


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## Cknerr (Oct 30, 2009)

@ southerntaco98 Most likely I can. Not sure until I see it. Since driving down from Tennessee is a bit much to ask, could you send me some pics, or better yet - post them here. I'll let you know what I can do and other folks can follow along.


@TNGIRL  Don't have any  secrets, or actually don't believe in them. That is why I sponsor my Open Shop weekends as often as possible. There are so few of us left -gunsmiths that don't just remove & replace- I want to pass on anything I have learned and get other to try it. Gunsmithing is usually not difficult and it sure is fun!  Hope I can get others to try it.

Here are 2 articles on stocks I am making now. As you can see, there really isn't anything mysterious. A couple of tricks maybe like using a buffing wheel to sharpen chisels, but nothing eye brow raising. Have to admit I really like to work on nice wood.

Marlin lever action: http://www.woodworkersguildofga.org/cgi-bin/forum/Blah.pl?m-1239854926/

Muzzle loader (very long article): http://riflerestorer.com/articles/ron_ml.htm


The Marlin stock is done and now getting finished. It is the problem child mentioned in previous posts with the oil finish staying gummy.

Take care,
Chris


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## Darkhorse (Oct 30, 2009)

Why do you want it restored? In the old ML gun buisness one of the worst things you can do is restore an old gun. Just removing the original finish and refinishing can devalue your gun by huge sums.
The people who buy these guns want them in the natural aged condition, that is where the allure is.
As for a shooter you can probably get a better one from Pederosoli and safer to shoot.
I would not hesitate to restore, say, a pre 64 model 94, or model 70 Winchester. Even older, sound centerfire or rimfires can be restored and used for years.
I wouldn't do it. But it's your gun so the decision is yours.


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## Longstreet1 (Oct 30, 2009)

Never plan on reselling it was my wifes great granddads think it would be nice to have refinished. All my guns I plan on passing down in generations I never sell any of them.


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## Longstreet1 (Oct 30, 2009)

*some pics*


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## Cknerr (Oct 30, 2009)

Nice pictures! That will look good on the wall -even at eye level!

Gotta disagree with you Darkhorse. If everyone listened to RoadShow on PBS, we would soon have all our heritage collapse into rust and dust. Sometimes you have to do something to preserve it. A baseball glove will dry rot and turn to powder if left alone. Everything I am aware of to prevent that will darken the leather. That is much preferable then losing it because no one made an effort to conserve or preserve it. Firearms are no exception.

I will agree that if you don't know what you are doing, more harm then good will likely occur! This is the excuse many people use not to do anything. The real answer is not so black and white. So how do you work with the idea of do no harm? (hear that all the time in museum work) First off, most things are not museum items. They will be displayed in people home's and subject to all the dust, cooking oil, HVAC effects, etc that is common to where we live. Live for those items is much more harsh and they will continue to deteriorate.

Something to think about too - each generation passes on say a muzzle loader. A genretion is now about 25 years. If a part is fixed today, when it is past on - soon what you did will be an antique too. Part of the character that makes all these old firearms and treasures so unique.

There are several stages to "messing" with an item. First is preservation. Just try to stop damage and do nothing to repair/fix. Next is preservation with some repair where the structure or internal integrity can be restored. This is the minimum for restoration. The last and most drastic is preservation with full restoration. This can be "making it look factory fresh" to " looking all original and just looks like it was well taken care of" The later is the most common things I do. Making it bright and shiny makes my skin crawl.

Most of the items found in attics and behind doors are not worth a lot of money. However, they do have a considerable sentimental value. Doing a restoration like I would for a museum or big time collector is out of the question for most people. It is just too expensive. Why? Not enough room here to explain. Suffice it to say you will not be able to tell it is not original. I have to leave certainl marks to show it is not original (ethics).  What most people want is something to look like it is all original, works correctly, and has been very carefully kept over the years. Doing this correctly will enhance the value of most items - including firearms. Re-bluing (blackening), making new parts, wood repair, etc. is carried out in a manner similar to what would have been done in the era the firearm was made. Parts no longer exist for most things in a lock, so I make them by hand. -the same way a repair would have been when a muzzle loaders was brought in to a gunsmith in days of yore. 

On the outside, re-cutting metal engraving or embellishments in the wood so it appears original is not a crime. It is restoration. As long as the new buyer knows this, it is usually appreciated and adds value. Now if it is done ham handed - ya, that would be criminal (well sorta) and would hurt the value. Refinishing after removing some dings and scratches is okay too, as long as it does not change the appearance from original. 

Might get hollered at for the refinishing comment. Please bear with me here. The idea is to preserve a historical item for the future. By going to the trouble of a PROPER restoration, and actually a half-way job can be better then nothing, it will be preserved for the future.  Deterioration will be stopped for sometime, and the age clock gets reset back a little.

The monetary value is increased if the restoration/preservation was done in a reasonable manner. It will certainly not go down in value!

Don't mean to offend anyone. This is a pet peeve of mine. Careful and thoughtful work on an old weapon won't hurt a bit. Grabbing some steel wool to "brighten up" or "clean up" an old piece of metal is not being careful or thoughtful.   ...unless you know how and then steel wool usually is not involved.


I'll get off my soap box now
Chris


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## Longstreet1 (Oct 30, 2009)

Look forward to getting to meet with you. Just let me know when you get time.


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## bobman (Oct 30, 2009)

that is a very cool gun does it have who made it on it anywhere??


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## fishdog (Oct 30, 2009)

Darkhorse has seen to many people ruin old guns by trying to "restore" them. I think that is why most people leave them alone. That gun can be claned up to make a good wall hanger or maybe even a shooter. I have an old single barrell that has been in my familly for several generations and I restored it with the guidence af an old friend who was a gunsmith in stone Mountian, I have given thought to replacing the barrell and using it.


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## boneboy96 (Oct 30, 2009)

for those that do not know Chris, he is a master craftsman and award winning artist in total museam quality restorations.  I've had the pleasure of being in his workshop on numerous occasions...seeing his work hands on and also on display and in competitions.   His attention to detail is second to none.       Hey Chris, how's the tug restoration coming along?       I want to see some pics!!!


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## SASS249 (Oct 30, 2009)

Great post Chris.  I completely agree with you about doing the proper level of restoration or repair.  While I have little skill, some of my friends are great rifle builders and leather workers.  I envy those of you who can do work at that level.
As you note, most old guns have relatively little value other than to the family.  To me the best use of these are as shooters.  I know a lot of people disagree, but particularly with old muzzle loaders I think you can do nothing better than use and care for them.


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## SWAMPFOX (Oct 30, 2009)

*Cknerr*

Do you offer tours of your facility?


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## Longstreet1 (Oct 31, 2009)

Looks like it says London Fine Twint on it is kind of hard to read


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## Cknerr (Oct 31, 2009)

wow, 
This is nice to wake up to! Thanks.

Boneboy -  Thanks man, your lathe work is nothing to sneeze at too you know.

@Swampfox  -yes, or should I say kinda,  they are called Open Shop weekends. Have them as often as possible. Call me at 678-770-4274, you are welcometo stop by any time. Always up for talking about guns and messing about with them! Things are kinda dusty at the moment. My dust collector/chip handling system is down. Got a new blower assembly that has a 3 phase motor. The budget at the moment doesn't allow for a replacement single phase motor...so it is back to push broom and dust pan  for the time being. If you can stand a little dust, please stop by and say hello,  actually the invite is for anyone interested. I am not a conventional gunsmith. There is nothing in my shop that even resembles your normal gunshop.  There are many things like trigger work, etc. that I am just not setup to do. It can be done and is from time to time, just better to take it to one that does it on a regular basis. I fill a niche that most gunsmiths want no part of - and it is something I enjoy doing most of all. I'm a very lucky fellow. 

@swamdog - now that I reread over what I wrote,  it does seem a bit a harsh. Not directed at you Darkhorse. Do have a thought though - if someone does the steel wool, scotch brite pad thing to an old muzzle loader, cold blues it, etc. - totally ruins the monetary value, is it so bad when it stays in their home and in 30 years or so is passed on to a their children who will keep it safe and a prize on their wall? It is still with us for better or worse. Just so they don't try to sell it (that will be a wake up call), then it is still worth something in sentimental value. Funny thing, didn't think this way until I worked with several curators. You would think they would be militant about preservation and restoration methods. Found it to usually be the opposite outside of their museums. They just want it taken care of in whatever shape it is in for future generations to learn from. Sure changed my way of thinking! Don't get me wrong here, restoring something this way makes my skin crawl. Just have to think of the future generations that will see it and ponder upon our history and heritage. Not the asociated thoughts the appearnace would generate in your and my mind. 

Amen Sass249, whenever possible - they should be used as intended. Rifles /pistols/fowlers, etc. should be shot when it is safe to do so. That is what they where intended to do and sure is a blast doing it!



Well that is enough, turning into a windbag!

Hope the weather improves for the little monsters tonight.

Thanks and take care,
Chris


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## Eric Lewis (Nov 4, 2009)

*restoration*

Alot of people do mess up guns - cars by trying to do it themselves and save....I know I have

But Chris is a MASTER gunsmith and a Master woodworker.
On top of being a great guy.  I've seen a good bit of his work in person and it is incredible !

Good luck


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 20, 2009)

Longstreet1 said:


> Never plan on reselling it was my wifes great granddads think it would be nice to have refinished.
> 
> All my guns I plan on passing down in generations I never sell any of them.




If that gun could talk there's family stories to be told......

When you refinish it you wash away those stories and all you just have then is just an old refinished gun with no heart or soul.


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## LanceColeman (Nov 20, 2009)

There is NO WAY I would refinish that gun!! Have a professional preserve it?? have a proffesional clean it and dress it?? yes that would be priority number one. But a total strip and refinish?? no sir. Wouldn't do it.

But then again ya talkin to a fella thats sittin on an original 1850 rice wrought iron barrel in an original southern mt rifle and the only  thing it really needs is to have ed rebore it from 32-36 and it can be shot. Every other part of the rifle is in perfect working condition.....I almost can't bring myself to let Ed do it.

There's just something about them ol guns. HOWEVER the worst thing that can happen to them is to be left alone and not oiled or shot or worked a bit.

I havea close friend that found an original Gillepsie built in Union county from 1760. the gun was so far passed gone there was no saving it. But he took exact measurement off the rifle and remade a replica as precise as he could. to the point that we re used the original  buttplate and trigger guard off the old rifle.  Man when you walk the mts. with them two peices of steel on that gun?? you KNOW it's not the first time they been toted through those mts.

I LOVE that po boy!


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## Cknerr (Nov 20, 2009)

Lance,
I did the exact same thing with a barrel my grandfather gave me. It was the one my great uncle used on the farm in the very early 1800's. Trying to recall the years - something like 1780 to 1810. I was told it had a cherry (as in the wood) stock and possible brass furniture. He used it to feed the family several times when things where rough. 

It was originally a 32, now a 36.  Before my Dad passed away, he shot it at Friendship. Was I ever a very proud son! 'course in those days Dad also helped a lot. It is very light and what  tack driver. Freshening the barrel sure did wonders. 

This is what she looks like now (please excuse the dust). The barrel is the only original thing left. The rest is a best guess as to what it once looked like. 










Your right, it is something special to resurrect a piece of history and have it work and look the way it once was. 

Take care,
Chris


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## LanceColeman (Nov 20, 2009)

.... OK wait a minute.. I'm droolin a bit..K there gottit. 

"MAN THATS SWEET!"


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## Cknerr (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks Lance,
I love doing it - and why that is my occupation now. Never want to return to the corporate world! 

Best of luck with your projects.....maybe compare notes one day?

Chris


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## LanceColeman (Nov 20, 2009)

Anytime! but my buddy up blairsville is the gunsmith. I'm just a simple ol redneck carpenter........ in the midst of changin my career as well!! But it aint buildin guns.


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## Killdee (Nov 20, 2009)

Cknerr are you located in Acworth? I have an 1850's 32 built by my GGuncle Philip Bettis that has had some parts replaced by un- original parts, lock and trigger, I might get you to look at sometime. I turkey hunt with it usually 1 0r 2 times every season enjoying using a rifle that has killed game in 3 century's.


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## Cknerr (Nov 21, 2009)

Lance,
What do you mean "....it ain't buildin guns..."?! I just don't understand -you mean people do something besides mess with guns?

Please say it ain't so!

lol -take care,
Chris


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## LanceColeman (Nov 22, 2009)

HA!! Nah it means I aint that disciplined and no way I would try and make it a career. I putta TOW kit together here and have been known to build a longrange centerfire from scratch here there but I leave that gun building to the pros. Like I said. I'm just a simple carpenter.


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