# Trinity



## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

I Just wanted to see how many people actually believe in Trinity. Trinity is the teaching that God the father, Son of God Jesus, and the holy spirit are the same being, equal in everyway. 
My belief:This teaching is confusing at best and will make the bible contradict itself many times. It's roots come straight out of pagan religions and was merged in to some christian faiths around the 4th century. 
Poll is priviate and no one can tell what you voted. Feel free to expain your vote if you wish., however I am asking that the religious mob here to respect people and do not bash them for their opinions.


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## Arrowslinger (Nov 6, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> It's roots come straight out of pagan religions and was merged in to some christian faiths around the 4th century.
> religious mob here to respect people and do not bash them for their opinions.



Here we go I guess everything is pagan! Please don't tell me where my beliefs come from. I know where my beliefs come from the "Bible" not a doctored up version of a bible a bunch of cult members "translated" to fit an unchristian doctrine. For somebody thats not here to tell people what to think you sure are beating a dead horse.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

Arrowslinger said:


> Here we go I guess everything is pagan! Please don't tell me where my beliefs come from. I know where my beliefs come from the "Bible" not a doctored up version of a bible a bunch of cult members "translated" to fit an unchristian doctrine. For somebody thats not here to tell people what to think you sure are beating a dead horse.




Just look in the history books or even most Encyclopedias.Here are some quotes:

The New Encyclopædia Britannica says: “Neither the word Trinity, nor the explicit doctrine as such, appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old Testament: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord’ (Deut. 6:4). .wordydirty.wordydirty. The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. .wordydirty.wordydirty. By the end of the 4th century .wordydirty.wordydirty. the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.”—(1976), Micropædia, Vol. X, p. 126.

The New Catholic Encyclopedia states: “The formulation ‘one God in three Persons’ was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the 4th century. But it is precisely this formulation that has first claim to the title the Trinitarian dogma. Among the Apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective.”—(1967), Vol. XIV, p. 299.

In The Encyclopedia Americana we read: “Christianity derived from Judaism and Judaism was strictly Unitarian [believing that God is one person]. The road which led from Jerusalem to Nicea was scarcely a straight one. Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, onwordydirtythe contrary, a deviation from this teaching.”—(1956), Vol.wordydirtyXXVII, p. 294L.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

Arrowslinger said:


> Here we go I guess everything is pagan! Please don't tell me where my beliefs come from. I know where my beliefs come from the "Bible" not a doctored up version of a bible a bunch of cult members "translated" to fit an unchristian doctrine. For somebody thats not here to tell people what to think you sure are beating a dead horse.




I know you might not believe Encyclopedias, so look in your bible, the one not doctored up, and see what it has to say

Are they equal? NO according to your non doctored bible --

John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

If there the same they would know the same. According to your non doctored version they do not know the same_

Mark 13:32, RS: “Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead)

Same authority?? Look again

Matt. 20:20-23, RS: “The mother of the sons of Zebedee .wordydirty.wordydirty. said to him [Jesus], ‘Command that these two sons of mine may sit, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.’ But Jesus answered, .wordydirty.wordydirty. ‘You will drink my cup, but to sit at my right hand and at my left is not mine to grant, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.’” (How strange, if, as claimed, Jesus is God! )

Seems like if you sinned against one of the three it would be a sin against all, since they are the same?

Matt. 12:31,wordydirty32, RS: “Every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.” (If the Holy Spirit were a person and were God, this text would flatly contradict the Trinity doctrine, because it would mean that in some way the Holy Spirit was greater than the Son. Instead, what Jesus said shows that the Father, to whom the “Spirit” belonged, is greater than Jesus, the Son of man.)

Who did Jesus pray too? himself? Not his will but his father's. Looks confusing in your undoctored version of the bible.

Matt. 26:39, RS: “Going a little farther he [Jesus Christ] fell on his face and prayed, ‘My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.’” (If the Father and the Son were not distinct individuals, such a prayer would have been meaningless. Jesus would have been praying to himself, and his will would of necessity have been the Father’s will.)


When you make statements please use facts, the bible, references, and clear logic. What you or I say is meaningless and I hope nobody would make a choice that effects their life without looking at the facts. Explian these scriptures and how it does not contradict the teaching of trinity? Don't just disregard them and go on making unbased claims full of slander. I didn't write the bible, blame god for messing your beliefs up, not me.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

Woodswalker said:


> First off, i do not know.
> 
> secondly, the story i've always heard was that in order to gain greater acceptance of the Christian faith by the Greeks, who traditionally had worshipped many Gods, the idea or concept was offered that three Gods would appeal to them, and thereby gain their membership.
> 
> ...



You are absolutly correct. A pagan ruler used it  to united the people for easier control. He was worried about his power over people not whether it is right or wrong to God.

The only problem is it contradicts the bible in so many locations, and it makes the understanding of who God, his son ,and the holy spirit immpossiible. People have a problem drawing close to something they cannot understand.  But the best reason is that God does not want us mixing pagan beliefs with true whorship, because then it becomes unacceptable to him. look at the scripture below. Look it up in your bible and see if you believe it is ok to mix the two.

2Cor. 6:14-18: “What fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beâ€²lial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? --------- ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says Jehovah, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’; ‘“and I will take you in, ---- and you will be sons and daughters to me,” says Jehovah the Almighty


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## PJason (Nov 6, 2006)

*If you can use a Pamphlet so can I*

The Witnesses: Masters of Misquotation

By Mark Brumley



"You Roman Catholics," says the Jehovah’s Witness at the door, "claim the Bible teaches your doctrines, yet your own theologians deny this.

"A Catholic priest, John L. McKenzie, S.J., in his Dictionary of the Bible, shows how the Trinity, for instance, is not a Bible doctrine.

"He says: 'The Trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that is God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defines wad reached only in the fourth and fifth centuries A.D. and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief.' So one of your own priests admits the Trinity isn't in the Bible."

What's the typical Catholic to say? He probably doesn't have McKenzie's Dictionary of the Bible on hand to check out the quotation. The missionary has caught him unarmed. All he can do is hope the passage is being cited properly.

In situations like this, a little knowledge of how Catholic sources are misused by Jehovah's Witnesses is essential if Catholics are going to defend their faith.

The witnesses use a number of other passages from McKenzie's Dictionary of the Bible to attack Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the immorality of the soul. For example, in their Reasoning From the Scriptures, McKenzie is quoted as follows:

"The Trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of 'person' and 'nature,' which are Greek philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The Trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as 'essence' and 'substance' were erroneously applied to God by some theologians."

The Witnesses want to make it appear that McKenzie is saying two things: (1) the Trinity isn't a biblical doctrine and (2) it originated in Greek philosophy rather than in Scripture. Yet McKenzie doesn't say either.

Consider his comment that the Trinity isn't "explicitly and formally a biblical belief." This means nothing more than that we won't find the formula "three persons in one God" in the Bible in so many words. But the substance of the doctrine--the belief the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit possess the same divine nature--is taught in Scripture, and Fr. McKenzie affirms this.

He states: "The elements of the Trinity of persons within the unity of nature in the Bible appear in the use of the terms Father, Son, and Spirit . . . [The New Testament] offers no room for a statement of the relations of Father, Son, and Spirit which would imply that one of them is more or less properly on the divine level of being than another" (Dictionary of the Bible, 899-900).

What about the charge that the Trinity originated in Greek philosophy? McKenzie says the "elements of the Trinity of persons within the unity of nature in the Bible appear in the use of the terms Father, Son, and Spirit." In other words, while the Bible doesn't use philosophical language about the Trinity, it does teach the doctrine by the way it speaks of the Father, Son, and Spirit.

Rather than claiming the Trinity originated in Greek philosophy, McKenzie asserts that two Greek philosophical terms, "person" and "nature," were employed to elaborate and develop a doctrine taught by the Bible.

Similarly, the Witnesses misconstrue the New Catholic Encyclopedia's article on the Trinity. In their pamphlet Should You Believe in the Trinity? they quote the following passage as evidence the early Christians didn't believe in the Trinity:

"The formulation 'one God in three Persons' was not solidly established, certainly not fully assimilated into Christian life and its profession of faith, prior to the end of the fourth century. . . . Among the apostolic Fathers, there had been nothing even remotely approaching such a mentality or perspective."

Should this be taken to mean the early Christians and the apostolic Fathers didn't believe in the Trinity? Hardly. This quotation indicates only that the apostolic Fathers didn't use the precise formula "one God in three Persons," not that none of them believed that the one divine being was Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

R. L. Richard, the author of the article, distinguishes between a strict, dogmatic formulation of the Trinity, which took centuries of reflection upon Scripture to achieve, and an elemental Trinitarianism which was present in the earliest Christian writings.

He writes: "If it is clear on the one side that the dogma of the Trinity in the stricter sense of the word was a late arrival, product of three centuries' reflection and debate, it is just as clear on the opposite side that confession of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and hence an elemental Trinitarianism--went back to the period of Christian origins" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, XIV, 300).

The Witnesses also attack another doctrine, the divinity of Christ, using McKenzie's Dictionary of the Bible. Reasoning From the Scriptures tries to bolster the Witnesses' translation of John 1:1 ("the Word was a god") with the following quotation from McKenzie's entry on God: "John 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.'"

The Witnesses believe John 1:1 teaches Jesus was a lesser god, but not the Almighty God. They're willing to say Christ was (and is) a divine being, but not the supremely Divine Being. Their citation of McKenzie is an attempt to show how even a Catholic Scripture scholar admits John 1:1 teaches this.

(The Witnesses stress how McKenzie's remarks are published with a nihil obstat and an imprimatur from the Archdiocese of Chicago, as if this lends official Catholic support for their rendering of John 1:1.)

While McKenzie agrees with the Witnesses that the Word, Jesus, was a divine being, he doesn't mean by this what the Witnesses mean. McKenzie is actually affirming the divinity of Christ. After explaining why the New Testament doesn't usually refer to Christ as God, he writes:

"This is a matter of usage and not of rule, and the noun is applied to Jesus a few times. John 1:1 should rigorously be translated 'the word was with the God [=the Father], and the word was a divine being.' Thomas invokes Jesus with the titles which belong to the Father, 'My Lord and my God' (John 20:28). 'The glory of our great God and Savior' which is to appear can be the glory of no other than Jesus (***. 2:13)" (Dictionary of the Bible, 317).

Mckenzie concludes his comments on God and Christ by noting, "In Jesus Christ therefore not only the word of God is made flesh, but all of the saving attributes of Yahweh in the Old Testament" (Dictionary of the Bible, 318).

McKenzie points to a number of texts where Christ is called God as evidence of Jesus' divinity. In no way is he saying Jesus is a lesser god. This conclusion is underscored when we remember McKenzie's observation that the New Testament doesn't place the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit above or below one another on the divine level of being.

The Trinity and the divinity of Christ aren't the only Christian doctrines the Witnesses attack by citing Catholic sources. The immortality of the soul is also challenged.

The Witnesses believe that when the Bible talks about the soul, this is merely another way of referring to something living, whether human or animal, or to the life possessed by a human being or animal. They deny man has an immaterial aspect to him which survives death.

Reasoning From the Scriptures asks, "Do other scholars who are not Jehovah's Witnesses acknowledge that this is what the Bible says the soul is?" The answer is a quotation from W. E. Lynch's article on the use of "soul" in the Bible:

"There is no dichotomy [division] of the body and soul in the Old Testament. The Israelite saw things concretely, in their totality, and thus he considered men as persons and not composites. The term nepes [ne phesh], though translated by our word soul, never means soul as distinct from the body or the individual person. . . . The term [psyche] is the New Testament word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XIII, 449-450).

The witnesses claim this passage concedes the Bible never speaks of the soul as distinct from the body and that there is no afterlife. But look carefully at what it actually says.

Lynch says the Hebrew word nepes, despite being translated as soul, "never means soul as distinct from the body." This may be true of the word nepes, but is Lynch saying the Bible nowhere teaches there's an immaterial existence after death? No. A few paragraphs later he says otherwise:

"At death, the nepes goes to Sheol, a place of an insensitive, shadowy existence. Many psalms pray for the rescue of one's nepes from death, where the rescue means to be saved from dying, not to be raised from the dead. Happiness after death is known only in late Old Testament revelation." So neither the more primitive nor the more developed Old Testament understanding of death means non-existence, which is what the Witnesses teach.

Also misleading is the Witnesses' use of the New Testament section of Lynch's article. They cite the first part of this paragraph, but leave off the last sentence:

"The term [psyche] is the New Testament word corresponding with nepes. It can mean the principle of life, life itself, or the living being. Through Hellenistic influence, unlike nepes, it was opposed to body and considered immortal" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, XIII, 450). Why do the Witnesses omit the last sentence? Because it says the New Testament teaches the immortality of the soul.

So much for the Witnesses' claim that this article supports their view of the soul. They can defend their doctrines by using Catholic sources only when they don't accurately represent the tenor of the writings they cite.

What are some things to note from this brief survey?

First, the Witnesses aren't interested in what the authors they cite actually say, but only in what they can be made to appear to say. Theirs is not an interest in scholarship for scholarship's sake (or for truth's sake).

Second, whenever possible, you must check the Witnesses' quotations of Catholic works to be sure the quotations haven't been taken out of context, misinterpreted, or otherwise twisted.

Third, when you can't double-check a quotation, never give the Witnesses the benefit of the doubt. Don't concede anything to a quotation you can't substantiate.

The last point is important. A technique employed by the Witnesses to dismiss your use of damaging excerpts from their own sources (such as The Watchtower or Awake!) is to claim the excerpts have been taken out of context. Since the original sources aren't usually on hand, and since the Witnesses aren't willing to take your word that the excerpts have been given properly, this effectively neutralizes whatever point is raised.

Turnabout is fair play. Since the Witnesses are unwilling to rely on your quotation of their documents, don't trust their citations of Catholic sources. This will make it harder for them to make their case.

Groups such as the Jehovah's Witnesses don't flinch at mistranslating even the Bible itself, so it's not surprising they feel free to misuse the writings of people of faiths other than their own. When dealing with the Witnesses, the best approach is expressed in the words of Jesus: "Be shrewd as serpents and simple as doves" (Matt. 10:16).


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

Anagama said:


> The Witnesses: Masters of Misquotation
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PJason (Nov 6, 2006)

The whole thing speaks to the Trinity and to the devices the JW use to try and disprove it. Maybe you should just post a link to the pamphlet you're reading from. I can do it for you if you like.

 By the way you used the New Encyclopædia Britannica, the New Catholic Encyclopedia and the The Encyclopedia Americana to support you're belief so 





> Please explain, with the bible, how that information applies.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

Anagama said:


> The whole thing speaks to the Trinity and to the devices the JW use to try and disprove it. Maybe you should just post a link to the pamphlet you're reading from. I can do it for you if you like.
> 
> By the way you used the New Encyclopædia Britannica, the New Catholic Encyclopedia and the The Encyclopedia Americana to support you're belief so



I have used 6 scripture quotes and three reference to encyclopedia's Just stay on topic, it is not about JW's or any other religion. You can bash me on another thread, but I will tell you the bible carries more wieght with me, peer pressure is just not my weakness.


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## Arrowslinger (Nov 6, 2006)

He is reading from a pamphlet,

I had this almost identical conversation before the conversation usually starts out "Knock, Knock".


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 6, 2006)

1 Timothy 6:3-5 comes to mind when I read the first post...

But here is what Gods Word, the Bible has to say on the subject..

   1. The Bible teaches that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10, Isaiah 44:6-8, Isaiah 45:22)
   2. The Bibles teaches that there is one who is called the Father and is identified as being God. (1 Peter 1:2)
   3. The Bible teaches that there is one who is called Jesus and is identified as being God. (John 1:1-3&14-18, John 20:28-29, 1 John 1:1-4&5:20, Philippians 2:5-8, Revelation 1:17-18, Revelation 22:12-20)
   4. The Bible teaches that there is one who is called the Holy Spirit and is identified as being God. (John 14:16-17, John 15:26, John 16:7-15, Acts 5:3-4, Acts 13:2, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 9:14, Hebrews 10:15-18)

     There are things in life that are triune in nature but one.  For example:  An egg is one but with three distinctions.  You have the yoke, the white, and the shell, but all three composite the one egg.  The word Trinity is way of explaining the belief in one God revealed through three distinct persons.  Some people get all hung up on the issue of the Bible teaching there is only one God.  No where does the Bible state God is only one person, but it does say God is one in Deuteronomy 6:4.  The word for one there is the Hebrew word Echad, which means a composite unity.  For examples of this consider Genesis 1:5, Genesis 2:24, Ezra 2:64, Ezekiel 37:17 where the same Hebrew word Echad is used and means one in unity, not in number!  

What Does The Word Trinity Mean?
"What does the word Trinity mean?" is a good question and the answer that you receive depends upon the person you ask.  The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, but neither is the word monotheism, theocracy, or the English word Bible. 



What certain groups say the word Trinity means

   1.  Christians explain the Trinity as being one God revealed through the Scriptures as the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.  The Trinity is not three Gods but one God by nature and unity.  The  Bible teaches there is one Church but many members and the husband and wife are one flesh, and we don't have any problems with that.  We also see that the Bible teaches that there is one God, but revealed as the Father, (Jude 1:1) Jesus, (John 1:1, John 20:28, 1 John 5:20) and the Holy Spirit. (Acts 5:3-4, 1 Corinthians 12:4-18, Hebrews 10:15-18)
   2. Jehovah's Witnesses explain the Trinity as being three gods (Watchtower book called Let God Be True, page 101, 1946) and believe it is not Biblical.  Jehovah's Witnesses have a different understanding concerning the doctrine of the Trinity and have twisted what Christians believe.  Jehovah's Witnesses believe that only the Father is God and that Jesus is the first creation of the Father (known as Michael the archangel), and that the Holy Spirit is not God nor a personage.  According to Jehovah's Witnesses Jesus is a created god and the Holy Spirit is God's energy or power. (Like the force in the Star Wars movies)
   3. Mormons explain the Trinity as being three Gods, but their meaning is different than the Jehovah's Witnesses.  Mormons believe in many Gods and that men can become Gods.  Mormons believe that God the Father was once a man who became a God, that Jesus at one time was not God and He became a God, and that the Holy Spirit has always been God. (Strange theology!)  Mormon leaders describe the Trinity as being three Gods: "I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods." (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith p. 370, also from Encyclopedia of Mormonism)


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## PWalls (Nov 6, 2006)

Excellent post and explanation FX.


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 6, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I have used 6 scripture quotes and three reference to encyclopedia's Just stay on topic, it is not about JW's or any other religion. You can bash me on another thread, but I will tell you the bible carries more wieght with me, peer pressure is just not my weakness.



DH101,
  Im curious, why it was OK for you to ref something other than the Bible in one thread, but accuse Anagama fo being off topic when he did the same, although the topic was the Trinity..
  Secondly, why do put weight in something that, as you describe, contradicts itself?


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

FX Jenkins said:


> DH101,
> Im curious, why it was OK for you to ref something other than the Bible in one thread, but accuse Anagama fo being off topic when he did the same, although the topic was the Trinity..
> Secondly, why do put weight in something that, as you describe, contradicts itself?




You are wrong again..
There are different topics discussed like the soul for one, but the main subject is about Jehovah's Witness's.  The topic is trinity not a religion , which so many here want to bash if it is not like thiers.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

This is a good example of religous bashing. It reminds me of the religious mob that incited the roman's to kill Christ. The topic is trinity.






FX Jenkins said:


> Warnings from the Bible
> 
> "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves." (Matthew 7:15 NASB)
> 
> ...


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 6, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> This is a good example of religous bashing. It reminds me of the religious mob that incited the roman's to kill Christ. The topic is trinity.



I agree that my Bible Warning post was off topic, thats why I was in the process of deleting the post at the same time you were quoting me...
So I apologize for hijaking your thread...Im still learning how to speak the truth in love...

But you never answered the second question...Why do you put weight, or trust, in something that you say, is contradictory? 

Another question...Is it "bashing" JW's if I say I believe the Watchtower contradicts itself, or thats its roots are pagan?

I don't think you have to worry about a mob, from Woodys, coming and crucifying you....they'll go after "Small buck killing bashers" before they turn on you...


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 6, 2006)

Woodswalker said:


> Not to disrupt a perfectly good set of arguments related to God & his descendants, but time is tight.
> 
> If we have the Judaeo-Christian tradition as an important Wing of the Great Effort, then how do we begin to meld in the Muslims??
> 
> ...




Better start your own thread there Woodswalker 
This is a sensetive Off Subject area...


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

But you never answered the second question...Why do you put trust in something that you say, is contradictory? 
Not sure what you mean. I think the teaching trinity is condradicts the bible. I put trust in the bible.

Another question...Is it "bashing" JW's if I say I believe the Watchtower contradicts itself?[/QUOTE]

Watchtower is not what I put trust in. It is not inspired, and is written by imperfect people. It is very similar to a sunday school book you (or at least I got them) get to help study the bible. 
Second look at the tactics. You  quoted stuff that is 70 years old written by imperfect people.I don't read Watchtowers that old and certianly didn't get not one belief out of something that old. I can't even keep up with the current ones(just to slow), but the bible always has the final say in my life. Things change over time. As the end draws closer the truths of the bible become clearer Proverbs 4:18. I guess I could take it as a compliment that people resort to bringing up stuff that old. What if I brung up something that was said by a member of your religion 30 years ago. It just has no bearing on today. We use to celebrate holidays, but when discovered that they had pagan association, we humbly changed. Believe me Jehovah's Witnesses are not perfect, we are trying to please god by living in harmony with the bible.  If you believe in Trinity take the bible,  show ones were they are wrong, don't concentrate on making a religion look bad, because in the end it makes you look badly. 

However thanks for asking, I am checking out of these discussions. They have gotten out of hand and it is to hard to keep them on topic to be benefical for anyone. If someone has a questions just PM me.


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 6, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> However thanks for asking, I am checking out of these discussions. They have gotten out of hand and it is to hard to keep them on topic to be benefical for anyone. If someone has a questions just PM me.



I sincerely regret to hear that...we're a passionate bunch around here and its easy to get carried away when we start discussing issues that are close to heart..

Im glad, however, to hear that the Bible is your final authority...for me, that means Gods word is:

_Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart._

and

_1 John 2:5 But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[a] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him:_


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 6, 2006)

“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1st John 5:7)

This teaching is one of the most important doctrines of the Bible.   It is this doctrine which distinguishes true Believers from cults.  Of this doctrine, John wrote, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.  He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is a partaker of his evil deeds” (2nd John  9-11)





Again, Jesus spoke of this promise saying, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you”(John 16:7).  Right before His ascension, Jesus spoke of this promise saying, “that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye heard of me” (Acts 1:4). So important was the coming of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said, “But ye shall receive power, after the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth”(Acts 1:8).  Jesus foretold the coming of God the Spirit.


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## 270win (Nov 7, 2006)

Be careful Tn, you don't want to be accused of calling a cult a cult. 

I love it when the JW's come to my door.  They always leave confused but promising to "come back with one of their leaders that can answer my arguments..."  Which of course they never do.  That's because their point in coming to my door is not to try to help me, but to try to earn their way into heaven through works... In other words, to help themselves...  Sad...

270win


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## 270win (Nov 7, 2006)

ooops! was that religion bashing??!!

270


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 7, 2006)

Dartonman...Why are you dodging my question time and time again???


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 7, 2006)

TN, 
Darton said he's checking out of these discussions...so you may or may not get a final answer with a PM...

While my initial reaction was that this thread was divisive in nature, I've been personally challanged to limit myself in spiritual "debates" to personal testimony, that others my be won over by Christs love and compassion in our words, ..Some posts are truely "seeking" in nature, and likewise I should be speaking the truth in love, where as I doubt we'll directly change anyones opinion with in the course of a single thread, and I must be cautious not to assume I understand whats in the other persons heart...but to abide by the instruction of Gods Word on how we share our Faith...


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## Spotlite (Nov 7, 2006)

1 Timothy 3 vs 16


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 9, 2006)

FX Jenkins said:


> TN,
> Darton said he's checking out of these discussions...so you may or may not get a final answer with a PM...
> 
> While my initial reaction was that this thread was divisive in nature, I've been personally challanged to limit myself in spiritual "debates" to personal testimony, that others my be won over by Christs love and compassion in our words, ..Some posts are truely "seeking" in nature, and likewise I should be speaking the truth in love, where as I doubt we'll directly change anyones opinion with in the course of a single thread, and I must be cautious not to assume I understand whats in the other persons heart...but to abide by the instruction of Gods Word on how we share our Faith...



FX, we have a ministry to cults in my area here in Tennessee. We witness weekly to JW's Mormons, and a few others.  Our witness, while sufficient sometimes doesnt go far enough. When you question a cult member and they realize their answers arent correct, and get them to question their "bible" and "leaders" they soon realize the "flimsiness" of their belief.


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## 60Grit (Nov 9, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> FX, we have a ministry to cults in my area here in Tennessee. We witness weekly to JW's Mormons, and a few others. Our witness, while sufficient sometimes doesnt go far enough. When you question a cult member and they realize their answers arent correct, and get them to question their "bible" and "leaders" they soon realize the "flimsiness" of their belief.


 

In the spirit if Christianity, may I make a suggestion or two. This whole thread came about as a result of some of my comments as well as other well meaning Christians from another thread about JW's.

I cannot honestly remember Jesus calling the leper a leper, the prostitute a prostitute, the blind the blind. I do remember him calling those that could see, blind, and those that could hear, deaf.

Perhaps, regardless of what our ministers and teachers refer to them as, we should not be calling anyone that studies the word of God a Cult. I am not sure, however well meaning, that shows the Love of Jesus to them in a manner that may lead them in a different direction.


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## 270win (Nov 9, 2006)

Tn is right.

Also, especially with JW's, they can and often are reigned in by their elders for debating in an open forum like this.  That's one reason why, when they come to my house, and I present them with a logical and Biblical argument.(using their bible or mine) They never come back... oh I ask them to please find the answers and come back... even invite them to bring their elders.  never happens...  I guess it's too much work?!  Or maybe they've lost too many "witnesses" to the Truth....  Or maybe they could care less about me and are just there trying to earn their way into their idea of heaven....

Not saying that's what's happening here.  Just looks like the same old JW pattern.

Be blessed....
270win


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 9, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> FX, we have a ministry to cults in my area here in Tennessee. We witness weekly to JW's Mormons, and a few others.  Our witness, while sufficient sometimes doesnt go far enough. When you question a cult member and they realize their answers arent correct, and get them to question their "bible" and "leaders" they soon realize the "flimsiness" of their belief.



Thats wonderful, I wish more Christians felt called to minister to the lost and disillusioned caught up in cults...

And Im not challanging your techniques, after all Jesus very often used questioning to allow people to arrive at their own conclusions and the truth...but I imagine that they could also see the compassion in his eyes, and hear the sincerity in his voice....elements that I sometimes have difficulty expressing in text...


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## 60Grit (Nov 9, 2006)

270win said:


> Tn is right.
> 
> Also, especially with JW's, they can and often are reigned in by their elders for debating in an open forum like this. That's one reason why, when they come to my house, and I present them with a logical and Biblical argument.(using their bible or mine) They never come back... oh I ask them to please find the answers and come back... even invite them to bring their elders. never happens... I guess it's too much work?! Or maybe they've lost too many "witnesses" to the Truth.... Or maybe they could care less about me and are just there trying to earn their way into their idea of heaven....
> 
> ...


 
So is the objective here to prove them wrong and win the argument?

Or is the objective to show them that True Christians are compasionate and caring, and the salvation of their soul is really at the heart of the debate?

If they never come back, one can only hope and pray that discernment will fill their soul and they will see the light eventually.

Point in case, I once worked with a couple who were of alternative lifestyles prior to making the commitment to be JW's and eventually getting married. Had I rather condemn them for being JW's and calling them cult members, or would I instead rather have a good working relationship with them, occasionally debating the differences and ending on common ground. 

Lest I kill their spirit and they regress to their old sinful ways. It is our job to plant the seed, it is God's job to make it grow. It is God's job to convict them if they fail to see the light. Calling them members of a cult is a conviction of the spirit and leads to no potential for growth what so ever.

One must know the path a sinner has walked prior to arriving at the place they are in their life before one can condemn them for being where they should be, in your opinion.

Love them first, teach them second, convict them never.


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## 270win (Nov 9, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> So is the objective here to prove them wrong and win the argument?The objective is to expose lies and deception and hopefully show the need to re-examine his faith in a false god and religion.
> 
> Or is the objective to show them that True Christians are compasionate and caring, and the salvation of their soul is really at the heart of the debate?There are many different ideas about how to witness to people.  There is no set method that will work every time.  I've taken plenty of criticism for being "too nice" on other threads on this board, sometimes I sense that God is leading me to be very compassionate, but sometimes He leads me to be more direct.  But the objective is always to follow God's lead in sharing the message that Jesus, and Jesus alone can save any deceived man.  I'll give an account if I have taken a fleshly initiative rather than representing Christ by following His lead.
> 
> ...



270


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## 60Grit (Nov 11, 2006)

270win said:


> 270


 

So we agree on all points. I only hope that this fellow isn't driven further into the oppression of seclusion, and exclusion that their practice commands. He was being hammered pretty hard from two sides, from this thread and the original JW thread. 

Pretty sure I can sympathize with him, why he left the Baptist Church, if he was treated that way while he was there.

Just concerned that some folks were being a tad bit self righteous, and not doing much towards helping him other than trying to prove that they could quote scripture better than he could.

Thanks for the reply.


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## Hawkeye (Nov 11, 2006)

It is very simple , find the word Trinity in The bible and you will see whether is biblical or not.


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## 60Grit (Nov 11, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> It is very simple , find the word Trinity in The bible and you will see whether is biblical or not.


 
Obviously you have some unresolved issues with the existing threads, and I don't blame you by the way some of them were pointed attacks in appearance.

Because the word Trinity does not exist in modern day translations of the Bible does not mean that we are not granted the right as humans to coin a simple one word phrase to take the place of always having to say, "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost".

I dare say, if you and I both were to take a crash course in Aramaic we would both be astonished at the literary liberties that were taken to put the translations into a symantic order for English.

Now, what exactly is your question?


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## 60Grit (Nov 11, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> It is very simple , find the word Trinity in The bible and you will see whether is biblical or not.


 
Clue #1:


*Arabic Life Application Bible (ALAB)**ï»¦ï»³ï»®ï»œïº— 1:26-28*






 26 Ø«Ù�Ù…Ù‘ÙŽ Ù‚ÙŽØ§Ù„ÙŽ Ø§Ù„Ù„Ù‡Ù� : «Ù„Ù�Ù†ÙŽØµÙ’Ù†ÙŽØ¹Ù� Ø§Ù„Ø¥Ù�Ù†Ù’Ø³ÙŽØ§Ù†ÙŽ Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ ØµÙ�ÙˆØ±ÙŽØªÙ�Ù†ÙŽØ§ØŒ ÙƒÙŽÙ…Ù�Ø«ÙŽØ§Ù„Ù�Ù†ÙŽØ§ØŒ Ù�ÙŽÙŠÙŽØªÙŽØ³ÙŽÙ„Ù‘ÙŽØ·ÙŽ Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ Ø³ÙŽÙ…ÙŽÙƒÙ� Ø§Ù„Ù’Ø¨ÙŽØ­Ù’Ø±Ù�ØŒ ÙˆÙŽØ¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ Ø·ÙŽÙŠÙ’Ø±Ù� Ø§Ù„Ø³Ù‘ÙŽÙ…ÙŽØ§Ø¡Ù�ØŒ ÙˆÙŽØ¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ Ø§Ù„Ø£ÙŽØ±Ù’Ø¶Ù�ØŒ ÙˆÙŽØ¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ ÙƒÙ�Ù„Ù‘Ù� Ø²ÙŽØ§Ø­Ù�Ù�Ù� ÙŠÙŽØ²Ù’Ø­ÙŽÙ�Ù� Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙŠÙ’Ù‡ÙŽØ§». 

 27 Ù�ÙŽØ®ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‚ÙŽ Ø§Ù„Ù„Ù‡Ù� Ø§Ù„Ø¥Ù�Ù†Ù’Ø³ÙŽØ§Ù†ÙŽ Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ ØµÙ�ÙˆØ±ÙŽØªÙ�Ù‡Ù�. Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ ØµÙ�ÙˆØ±ÙŽØ©Ù� Ø§Ù„Ù„Ù‡Ù� Ø®ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‚ÙŽÙ‡Ù�. Ø°ÙŽÙƒÙŽØ±Ø§Ù‹ ÙˆÙŽØ£Ù�Ù†Ù’Ø«ÙŽÙ‰ Ø®ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‚ÙŽÙ‡Ù�Ù…Ù’.   28 ÙˆÙŽØ¨ÙŽØ§Ø±ÙŽÙƒÙŽÙ‡Ù�Ù…Ù� Ø§Ù„Ù„Ù‡Ù� Ù‚ÙŽØ§Ø¦Ù�Ù„Ø§Ù‹ Ù„ÙŽÙ‡Ù�Ù…Ù’: «Ø£ÙŽØ«Ù’Ù…Ù�Ø±Ù�ÙˆØ§ ÙˆÙŽØªÙŽÙƒÙŽØ§Ø«ÙŽØ±Ù�ÙˆØ§ ÙˆÙŽØ§Ù…Ù’Ù„ÙŽØ£Ù�ÙˆØ§ Ø§Ù„Ø£ÙŽØ±Ù’Ø¶ÙŽ ÙˆÙŽØ£ÙŽØ®Ù’Ø¶Ù�Ø¹Ù�ÙˆÙ‡ÙŽØ§. ÙˆÙŽØªÙŽØ³ÙŽÙ„Ù‘ÙŽØ·Ù�ÙˆØ§ Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ Ø³ÙŽÙ…ÙŽÙƒÙ� Ø§Ù„Ù’Ø¨ÙŽØ­Ù’Ø±Ù�ØŒ ÙˆÙŽØ¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ Ø·ÙŽÙŠÙ’Ø±Ù� Ø§Ù„Ø³Ù‘ÙŽÙ…ÙŽØ§Ø¡Ù� ÙˆÙŽØ¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ ÙƒÙ�Ù„Ù‘Ù� Ø­ÙŽÙŠÙŽÙˆÙŽØ§Ù†Ù� ÙŠÙŽØªÙŽØ­ÙŽØ±Ù‘ÙŽÙƒÙ� Ø¹ÙŽÙ„ÙŽÙ‰ Ø§Ù„Ø£ÙŽØ±Ù’Ø¶Ù�».


OOPS!!! I guess we should get the truest english translations.


*King James Version (KJV)**Genesis 1:26-28*

http://www.biblegateway.com/resourc...getCommentaryText&cid=18&source=2&seq=i.1.1.6 




 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.   

 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.   28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.


What was that???? A plural Diety reference in Genesis.

Can't be !!!!!

What could that possibly be eluding to???


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 11, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> It is very simple , find the word Trinity in The bible and you will see whether is biblical or not.




The word  "rapture" isnt in the KJV either but the words 'Catching up" or "Catching away" is.

The Bible is clear on the soundess of the trinity doctrine.


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## 270win (Nov 11, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> What was that???? A plural Diety reference in Genesis.
> 
> Can't be !!!!!
> 
> What could that possibly be eluding to???



Hey scoot,
That sure sounds like sarcasm... Be careful, you might offend someone with your pointed remarks....   

270


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## 60Grit (Nov 11, 2006)

270win said:


> Hey scoot,
> That sure sounds like sarcasm... Be careful, you might offend someone with your pointed remarks....
> 
> 270


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## Hawkeye (Nov 11, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> Obviously you have some unresolved issues with the existing threads, and I don't blame you by the way some of them were pointed attacks in appearance.
> 
> Because the word Trinity does not exist in modern day translations of the Bible does not mean that we are not granted the right as humans to coin a simple one word phrase to take the place of always having to say, "The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost".
> 
> ...



Oviously you are not aware that Am a Hebrew and fluent in Hebrew Which is my mother language, and also Greek which is also my second language, english is my fourth.

If you need to choose a word to described The Father And Son and Holy spirit, then use the english word "God", or in Hebrew "Elohim"or as we call Him "Hashem".

Trinity implies 3 distinct persons which is not the God of the bible, The God of the bible as Moses sworned is One God.

Perhaps you should research the Words "Shema Echad".

That is whom we believe in and who took a human Body and dwelled amongst men.

Colossians 2:8:9:10 is very Clear as to who teh Son is.

Have you taken a crash course in arameic or Hebrew ?, perhaps we can email each other in my native languages.

If you can read Hebrew you can understand 75-80% of The Arameic.

Shalom Aylechem


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## 60Grit (Nov 11, 2006)

270win said:


> Hey scoot,
> That sure sounds like sarcasm... Be careful, you might offend someone with your pointed remarks....
> 
> 270


 
*Sorry about that. You get hit in the face with too many cream pies and you get the giggles yourself!!*

*Here is a direct Aramaic to English, or as close as you can get, of a verse out of Matthew. This is a reference to the Holy Spirit as it relates to Jesus' origin.*

19. Joseph, however, was a righteous man and did not wish to expose it. And he planned to secretly divorce her.
20. As he was thinking of this, the angel of the Lord appeared to him in his dream, and told him, "Joseph, son of David, do not fear taking Mary as your wife, because He that is born to her is of the holy Spirit.

40. "Whoever receives you, receives me. And whoever receives me, receives the One who sent me. 

*Since Jesus is of the Holy Spirit, are we congruent in saying when you are saved you have received the Holy Spirit. Ergo, modern day, Spirit filled Christian.*

16. Then as Jesus was baptized, at once he rose out of the water, and the heavens were opened to him and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove and settled upon him.
17. And, behold, the voice from heaven that said, "This is my beloved Son, by whom I am fulfilled!"

*Now we have established relational existance. But wait? Didn't it say he was of the Holy Spirit?*

*No the word Trinity is not spoken in the Bible, nor does it state thus I send you my angel Michael, in my form!!?? In fact the Angel of God, stated in the Watchtower as Michael, visits Joseph, does it not?? to explain the deliverance of the Holy Spirit to earth in the form of Jesus.*

*The symantics of this existance can be argued forever, all that I know is that the Trinity has been being taught for thousands of years, while the ever changing text of the Watchtower has been being taught for a mere fraction, of a fraction of that time, and is reminecant, in it's arguements, of how the Liberal Democrats extract certain verbage and "Spin" it to make it fit their purpose.*

*Jesus said, "I am the Truth and the Light, and all that believe in me shall find eternal life".*

*If we accept the truth of the Trinity and apply it to the last quote, then I fail to see any other way to interpret the teachings as a whole. *

*Anything can be perverted in part, separate from it's original context.*

*But then, I grew up Methodist, what do I know??? *


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## 60Grit (Nov 11, 2006)

OOPS, look what I stumbled upon!!!
I'm sorry but I have to kick this horse just one more time.

http://www.v-a.com/bible/hebrews_1-1-3_audio.html

TRANSLITERATION for AUDIO of Hebrews 1:1-3.
B'chul min-wan oo b'chul dim-wan1 mal-lil Alla-heh um ava-hein b'n-wiy-yeh min qa-dim, oo b'ha-leen yoo-ma-theh khara-yeh ma-lil um-man b'Barreh.
De-leheh sam yar-thah d'chool-mid-dim, oo beheh aw-wid ull-meh.
De-haw-yoo ç'mah-kha d'shou-kheh oo çal-mah de-e-too-teh, oo akh-khid chool b'khai-lah d'Milteh2, oo haw be-qnumeh3 aw-wid doo-kha-yah de-khta-hein, oo ya-tiw al yam-meena d'rab-boota bim-roameh. 
TRANSLATION of Hebrews 1:1-3
God spoke to our ancestors in every way, shape and form1 through the prophets of old, and in these last days, He spoke to us through His Son,
to Whom was consecrated the inheritance to everything, and by Whom He created the universes,
"So as they may be the yeast of His Son's glory and in the image of His existence, and that he may muster all of them by the power of His Manifestation2, and it was with that Essence of His Trinity3 that He cleansed our sins, He Who sits from the right of the Supreme throne in the Highest. 
FOOTNOTES to both sections.
1Ancient Aramaic idiomatic expression: "By all accounts and by all appearances."
2Milta (Ancient Aramaic sacred word), reserved only for the Messiah Eashoa (Jesus.)
*3Qnumeh. Ancient Aramaic sacred word: Trinity, (identified only in my translations of the Ancient Aramaic Scriptures.)*


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## markantony57 (Nov 13, 2006)

So Dartonhunter 101,

     You believe that when John began his book (1:1) and he wrote " In the beginning was The Word, and the Word  was with God and the word was God", he wasn't talking about part of the the Trinity?


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## 270win (Nov 13, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> But then, I grew up Methodist, what do I know???



 
Me too!  Then I got saved!!  Just kidding with ya...

270win


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## Hawkeye (Nov 13, 2006)

markantony57 said:


> So Dartonhunter 101,
> 
> You believe that when John began his book (1:1) and he wrote " In the beginning was The Word, and the Word  was with God and the word was God", he wasn't talking about part of the the Trinity?




No he was talking about God, not a second God or a lesser God, that would be against what Isaiah 43 says.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

I think these verses are very clear , in order for Jesus to be the saviour he has to be God Himself, not a second God not a third God, that is not an aceptable teaching to a Hebrew person who swears everyday by God's name in the "Shema Echad". I don't think that was acceptable to the apostles Either for you find no mention of a trinitarian god , except in pagan teachings in the middle east, this is an evil teaching infiltrated into the church by the Roman Catholics.

For those who quote genesis 1 as been plural ,yes the name elohim is plural, but only in what we who speak hebrew fluently understand as been a "Royal Plural ".
For instance Elohim is plural because HE is the creator ,architect, savior, king, master of the universe, the resurrection and the life, The Way, the giver of HIS WORD, etc etc.
All kings were called elohim in this sense, governors , princes and all in power are known in hebrew as elohim.

The argument that elohim is plural therefore there must be more tahn one person ,falls short when you understand Hebrew and the idiocyncracy of the language, that is just a false presumption of non-hebrew speakers.

God is very Clear in Isaiah and other places, there is no God before him or after him, nor will he ever create a second God, God is all in all.

To us when our ancestors left egypt, he was the colum of smoke during the day, and the colum of fire at night which protected us, he was the provider and the one that gave us Torah, no other God was needed for he is all powerfull.
Today He is the savior of all because he took a body that He created for himself and dwelled amongst us;


Shalom


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## StriperAddict (Nov 13, 2006)

Hawkeye,

If this question was raised earlier, my apologies, I haven't read every post here....

Since Jesus was God in the flesh, then to whom did He pray to in the Garden of Gethsemane (and other places/ texts recorded)?

Thanks,  ~Glenn


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 14, 2006)

The Bible says God come to us in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ., Jesus prayed to God, the father, at Gethsemane.  Why is this so hard to understand??


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## StriperAddict (Nov 14, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> The Bible says God come to us in the flesh in the person of Jesus Christ., Jesus prayed to God, the father, at Gethsemane.  Why is this so hard to understand??



It isn't, these are my beliefs, too.   Hawkeye's words seem to be somewhat contradictory on the personal work of God in His Son, the Father and Holy Spirit.

BTW, Hawkeye, I do not believe in any way that there are "3 Gods", that's not why I asked.  I'd just like you to elaborate your last post, thanks.


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## toddboucher (Nov 14, 2006)

My simple input on this:

 Next to the resurrection in body and Spirit this is the point that seperates false doctrine(cult) from the truth. Jesus said in the last days many will be deceived.I heard people say the trinity is the three forms of God, sometimes God is in the form of the Father, and other times the Son and other times the Spirit. This is called the water explanation, Sometimes water is water other times its Ice and other times its steam, sounds nice but wrong. This is almost crazy because for starters the bible says that all three where at creation. Also if Jesus was all man and all God who was God in heaven while Jesus was on earth, plus all three were present at the water Baptism of Jesus. Matthew 3:16,17 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."

A simple look at the trinity.

	How can 3=1 God?

Are there any facts to prove the Trinity?

The most important information on the Trinity is in the Bible from Genesis to Revelations its pages teach the Trinity. You can't just say there is no trinity because the word is not in the Bible, for the simple fact the word Bible is not in there either. 


 Next 3 equal 1 God ? 
Skeptics will ask how can 1+1+1= 1 God but their looking at it all wrong its really 1*1*1=1 The persons of the Trinity are all CO-equal CO-eternal meaning the Son and the Holy-Spirit are equal with the Father. Jesus is not less of God then Father and the Spirit is not less then Jesus. See Jesus was all Man and all God at times he said why do you call me Good only God is good and he prayed not what I will, but what you will. This was the man part of Jesus but the God part said in John 8:58,59 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Right after Jesus said he was God they pick up stones and tried to kill him, because when he said Iam the Jewish leaders remembered Exodus 3:13,14, Moses said to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is his name?' Then what shall I tell them?" 
 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'IAM has sent me to you.' " 

Also Jesus in John 10:30 said, "I and my Father are one.
I could go on forever on all the times Jesus said he was both God and Man. 
Don't look at the Trinity as a pie chart with each person is 1/3 of God. Think of a triangle where all corners of the triangle are still the triangle. I know it's hard to understand but God exists far beyond our limitations. The Trinity is explain in the Bible from the very beginning Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
John 1:1-4 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus, the Father and the Spirit were together before the world was created.

But the best way I ever heard the Trinity explained. The 3-in-1 nature of God is shown forth in Grace, Love, and Fellowship. Paul said in 2 Corinthians 13:14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

Grace = Jesus-(the Son) For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,


Love = The Father- John 3:16 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Fellowship = The Holy-Spirit John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Paul said about Jesus and warned that people would come along with wise words against the Trinity in 
Colossians 2: 8-10  
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.  For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. 

So the best support for the Trinity is the Bible and the bible talks about the trinity from Genesis to Revelation.

Just my simple input.


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## 60Grit (Nov 14, 2006)

Here's a good graphic of the triangle if you need visuals.

Notice the Avatar.


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## StriperAddict (Nov 14, 2006)

toddboucher,  good post.

scooter1, was that your intention with that avatar, a 'visual' on the trinity?  Neat....   !!!


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## 60Grit (Nov 14, 2006)

StriperAddict said:


> toddboucher, good post.
> 
> scooter1, was that your intention with that avatar, a 'visual' on the trinity? Neat.... !!!


 
It is the Trinity Knot it is just harder to see the detail with it reduced for an Avatar. I will attach a larger image.


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## Hawkeye (Nov 14, 2006)

StriperAddict said:


> Hawkeye,
> 
> If this question was raised earlier, my apologies, I haven't read every post here....
> 
> ...



The one praying was the flesh, that is who Yeshua was, his body felt all that we feel, including stress, sickness, cold heat, in his body He prayed to His Father who dwelled in Him.
Yeshua(Jesus) is a unique individual a unique creation, there has never been one like him or will ever be, fully man and Fully God(Elohim).

Many people were brought up on this trinity doctrine, because many come from catholisism, then they keep on misquoting the bible by applying Hebrew verses which are in Plural as if that proves a multiplicity of Persons, which is not correct.

Hebrew is a very specific language and it cannot be translated verbatum into english for taht very fact, English does not need plural nouns as hebrew ,spanish ,french. 
The plural in Hebrew have to be taken in context, A king(Melek) is plural because a king has many titles and duties not because he is 3 persons etc.


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## 60Grit (Nov 14, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> The one praying was the flesh, that is who Yeshua was, his body felt all that we feel, including stress, sickness, cold heat, in his body He prayed to His Father who dwelled in Him.
> Yeshua(Jesus) is a unique individual, there has never been one like him or will ever be, fully man and Fully God(Elohim).


 

I bet you look silly walking around everyday with those horse blinders on your head!!!


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## Hawkeye (Nov 14, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> I bet you look silly walking around everyday with those horse blinders on your head!!!


Am sorry I don't speak rudeness, that is one language I never learned, specially to my christian brothers.
Can't make sense of your statement care to discuss it in theological terms ?
John 4:
22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.


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## 60Grit (Nov 14, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> Am sorry I don't speak rudeness, that is one language I never learned, specially to my christian brothers.
> Can't make sense of your statement care to discuss it in theological terms ?
> John 4:
> 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
> ...


 
*Sure thing !!!*
I like that last verse. So we have established that God is a Spirit.
Now let's combine that with this next verse.


*1 John 4*

*Test the Spirits *

 1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


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## Hawkeye (Nov 14, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> *Sure thing !!!*
> I like that last verse. So we have established that God is a Spirit.
> Now let's combine that with this next verse.
> 
> ...



I don't see the revelance of that verse with what we are studying, rather that verse "God is A Spirit" taken in context means, That God teh Father is a Spirit and He is Holy, therefore He is the Holy Spirit, The holy Spirit conceived Yeshua(Jesus) in the Womb of Mary therefore the Holy Spirit is the Father Of Yeshua(Jesus) so the Father and the Holy Spirit is one person not 2 as the trinity doctrine teaches, furthermore the Spirit of Jesus is The Holy Spirit so Jesus is the Father and God Himself, not 3 persons but one person in many roles as He has always manifested himself to Israel.

I removed my blinders 40 years ago and discarded all the paganistic teachings of most churches, I hope the Holy one will also reveal it to you.

John 14

7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.


Shalom


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## 60Grit (Nov 15, 2006)

I am not sure where you get that the "Trinity Doctrine" teaches that they are three separate individuals??????????????????????????

The entire point of the Trinity is that they are three in one !!!!

You sort of agreed to my arguement by stating that. 

It was pagans that worshiped in circles, just as your arguement has brought you full circle to the point of our very belief in the Trininty as opposed to stating a valid arguement against it.

And no, I am not calling you a pagan, so don't start that thin skinned rude crap.

I have thus far, restrained myself from making cult references towards you and any other JW post on this thread as well as the JW belief thread. However, if I isolate of you guys responses to this issue, only one thing is proven.

The Trinity is truly a confusing topics for you fellas. It is cut and dry for me. 

I know in my heart of hearts, and need no book to explain to me what the bible says or doesn't say, that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, is my Lord and Savior. Because God came to earth in the flesh as his only begotten son, while also existing as our Father in Heaven, and still existing in the Spirit, Divine Salvation of the Spirit was made possible.

I cannot pretend to understand any doctrine that takes an engineering approach towards rationalizing the Holy Spirit. I can only be content in knowing where mine lies according to what the Bible teaches me, not what some other books tell me that the Bible is teaching me.

I have grown up reciting the Apostles Creed, and what I believe, and the Trinity is part of it. Call me a Pagan if you want, and don't dodge the fact that the implication of references to that origin are being rude and doing just such. For it is at this point that I will concede and defend my bretheren that refered to JW as a cult, and even give them credit for not hiding behind a phrase that referred to the practice as rooted in the basic structures of all cults, instead of just coming out and saying it.

I understand when someone has been coached not to attack in order to sell a point. There is a definite difference between a learned religion, grounded in Faith and Spirit, vs. a memorized text, founded in occlusion, seclusion, repression and selective restrictive beliefs.

Reminds me of the Amish school house tragedy a month or so back. Their doctrine prohibits interaction, as much as possible, with the outside world. But man were they all over the outside world coming to their aide when their world was turned upside down over this event.

Kind of an eye opener for them that you really can't hide from reality by merely turning your head. Likewise, you cannot merely hide from the "Truth" by following some fellows made up book that is constantly changing in order to defend the sects ever so flawed beliefs, and seeks to explain the Bible in a different light. 

And a small word of warning, if all you can do is respond with more scripture quotes then by your own ignorance of the Spirit, you will be proving me right.


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## Hawkeye (Nov 15, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> I am not sure where you get that the "Trinity Doctrine" teaches that they are three separate individuals??????????????????????????
> 
> The entire point of the Trinity is that they are three in one !!!!
> 
> ...




To whom did you directed this ?


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## 60Grit (Nov 15, 2006)

Hawkeye said:


> To whom did you directed this ?


 

????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


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## markantony57 (Nov 15, 2006)

One thing that we must remember is that there is not one person that knows everything there is to know about God. If you think you have it all figured out, then you better go back and study some more. I believe in the trinity as 3 in 1. Do I know how it works? No. Will I ever? probably not. But I accept it and move on. This is called faith. If you are trying to reason out the things of God, then you will never be able to accept the fullness of God.

The word "trinity", you will not find it in the bible. This is simply because the greek and the hebrew language does not have the trinity. They also have 3 forms of the word "love" which have three different meanings. Just because a word does not exist in one language, does not mean it doesn't exist altogether. This is proven throughout history (ie. sun as center of universe, a round earth not flat, etc.)


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## StriperAddict (Nov 15, 2006)

Hey Scooter, I don't know what was in your mind w post 54, but yes, it was rude.  I've gotten much out of your posts, as well as Hawkeye, and in most cases I haven't seen a real doctrinal dilema.  But that is the paradox of discussing this:  with few exceptions, both your posts have added light.  



markantony57 said:


> If you are trying to reason out the things of God, then you will never be able to accept the fullness of God.



If by reason you mean the "wisdom" of man, how correctly said.

May spiritual truth here be discerned by those who know true spirituality, John ch 3.


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## 60Grit (Nov 15, 2006)

StriperAddict said:


> Hey Scooter, I don't know what was in your mind w post 54, but yes, it was rude.


 
Then I digress.

Hawkeye, please accept my apology for the post #54 remark.

Scooter1


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## Hawkeye (Nov 15, 2006)

JWs Denied the deity Of Christ , we in the Hebrew Christian movement , exalt Yeshua (Jesus) to His rightfull place as God the Father, for our Doctrine of the Old testament does not allow for another god.

In essence the Trinity doctrine teaches God is 3 persons in 1, that makes as much sense as black is white.

The trinity teaches there are  distinct persons in the trinity
God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit.

"Distinct" means different, or separated somehow but yet the trinity claims they are one.

WE, in the Hebrew christian movement claim this to be a big error, based on what Moses was told by God and he Taught Israel, which we call the "Shema Echad", which says , "Hear ye Israel our God is one God ", we came to this basic bible conclusion.

since God says through the prophet Isaiah in Chapter 43, That he is the only God, that there has never been another god before or there will never be another God after Him and that He alone is the Only saviour.

One then has to come to 2 conclusions, either Jesus was a crazy man, or He was who he said He was, in verses I posted before in Mathews he tells Phillip," I have been with you so long and yet you ask show us the Father ? He that has seen me has seen the Father."

So out of His own mouth He says He is God teh Father, in a Human Body but His works could only be done by God Himself, His works proved him to Be the God of israel.

No other person can save you according to Isaiah 43, so if Jesus in not the God who spoke those words to Isaiah, you and I are lost in sin still. That is how important it is that you know who Jesus was and is.

Another determination we gathered from the scriptures is, "The Son "is the flesh body named Jesus, who was created for the purposed of sacrifice and redemption of mankind, the Father is the Holy Spirt which dwelled in that perfect body, no other interpretation is acceptable to us.

So we elevate and exalt Yeshua to His place as the apostles Did, when colossians 2;8;9;10 tells you ,In him dwelleth all the power of the deity(Godhead) bodily , that means all that God is, lives in Yeshua's Glorified body, so there aren't 3 but just one.
Shalom


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## Hawkeye (Nov 15, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> Then I digress.
> 
> Hawkeye, please accept my apology for the post #54 remark.
> 
> Scooter1



No problemo Brother


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## redwards (Nov 17, 2006)

*Three in One...1st part*

This is one of the best explanations of the Triunity of God I have ever read. All I have done is hyperlink all of his scripture references (I linked them in the KJV for those of you who prefer the KJV).

Because of the length of the paper, I am having to make 2 posts. A very good read.


> *Three in One*
> *By: *
> *Richard L. Strauss *
> It is essential for us to understand from the outset that our one great God exists in three persons. Admittedly, the typical nonbeliever views the doctrine of the trinity as one of the most ridiculous things he has ever heard. He is convinced that Christians must be out of their minds to accept it. God is one yet God is three? That’s absurd! One plus one plus one equals one? That’s nonsense—a blatant contradiction of simple, self-evident arithmetic. It stretches the credulity of reasonable people. “Three-in-One” may be a good name for sewing machine oil, but as a description of God the unbeliever sees it as sheer, unmitigated gibberish.
> ...


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## redwards (Nov 17, 2006)

*Three in One...2nd part*

This is the 2nd part


> *The Ministry of the Triune God*
> 
> Scripture links these three persons of the Godhead together so closely in so many divine activities that it would be foolish to deny that any one of them is God. Observe some of those activities.
> *Creating the World.*All three were involved in creation: the Father (Genesis 1:1); the Son (John 1:3,10; Colossians 1:16); and the Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Psalm 104:30). If all three created, then God the Creator must exist in three persons.
> ...


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## Hawkeye (Nov 17, 2006)

Action To Take

Express to God your desire to get to know Him in the fullness of His triunity—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Remind yourself regularly through the day that the triune God dwells in your body in the person of the Holy Spirit. 

I just Know Him as Abba and He is what He is, or can be whatever He wants to be.


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 17, 2006)

Woodswalker said:


> all of this discussion is very interesting, and goes a ways in showing our own differences in interpretation, even as we labor together to move forward.
> 
> i can't remember, nor access the exact differences, but seems like the Orthodox Christians, the Catholics - from which much Protestant theology flowed, and the Coptics, all had a bit of difference in their exact definition or understanding of God and Man as related to Jesus before, and after his Crucifixion.
> 
> ...


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 20, 2010)

The father son and the holy ghost are the same person but are different in ways


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## Tim L (Dec 20, 2010)

Why is it whenever a JW comes to your house, when you open the door they always have a small child dressed in their sunday best in front and sort of shove them at you first thing before you can even say hello??  Why is it whenever a JW is on any kind of forum, they have a picture of a small child as their avitar?  Why is it that on varied forums from across the country on various subjects the same child will be used as the avitar?


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## apoint (Dec 20, 2010)

If you dont see the Holy trinity, you need to change religions.
 Father, Son and Holy Spirit is one God. I wont even bother arguing the point. By the way, the word bible is not in the bible either. I also have a name and description but its not in the bible either.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 20, 2010)

Do you'll realize that this is a thread from 2006????


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## Lowjack (Dec 20, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you'll realize that this is a thread from 2006????



Holy resurrection Batman !


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## Tim L (Dec 20, 2010)

Then somebody had to do some big time digging to have found this; of course I can't say anything; I jumped right n and probably did the same years ago.....


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2010)

Tn_Extreme said:


> “For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one” (1st John 5:7)
> 
> This teaching is one of the most important doctrines of the Bible.   It is this doctrine which distinguishes true Believers from cults.  Of this doctrine, John wrote, “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.  He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: For he that biddeth him God speed is a partaker of his evil deeds” (2nd John  9-11)
> 
> ...



The Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit? Only the King James says this.


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## 1gr8bldr (Dec 20, 2010)

markantony57 said:


> So Dartonhunter 101,
> 
> You believe that when John began his book (1:1) and he wrote " In the beginning was The Word, and the Word  was with God and the word was God", he wasn't talking about part of the the Trinity?


Actually , modern scholars have reinvented the original idea that was intended. John was actually referencing Philo. Google, did John copy Philo
There is no way that John can reinvent that from which he is referencing.


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## Lowjack (Dec 20, 2010)

So According to trinitarians God the almighty is limited to being 3 ?
Kinda short sighted, IMO.


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## 35 Whelen (Dec 20, 2010)

Rouster said:


> Why is it whenever a JW comes to your house, when you open the door they always have a small child dressed in their sunday best in front and sort of shove them at you first thing before you can even say hello??  Why is it whenever a JW is on any kind of forum, they have a picture of a small child as their avitar?  Why is it that on varied forums from across the country on various subjects the same child will be used as the avitar?



No small child in my avatar.


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## apoint (Dec 20, 2010)

68 to nothing. we win


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## Ronnie T (Dec 20, 2010)

God tells us everything we need to know about Himself and His fullness without using the word 'trinity'.
If one doesn't believe in the word 'trinity' I pray they at least understand God's fullness revealed in His Son.
It makes life more understandable.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 21, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Do you'll realize that this is a thread from 2006????



i figured it be funny if i brought this one back from the dead Ronnie


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 21, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> i figured it be funny if i brought this one back from the dead Ronnie



I think there is a rule against necromancy around here 

J/K, if you look around thru the old threads you see 2 distinct truths.

1) There are some really good topics that have been discussed here through the years.

2) They didn't get along anymore then, than we do now.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 21, 2010)

Swamp Runner said:


> I think there is a rule against necromancy around here



Now I've got to look that word up.
I got to get out more often.


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## Tim L (Dec 21, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Now I've got to look that word up.
> I got to get out more often.



 That means doing bad things to dead folks!  How did this go in that direction!


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## Jeffriesw (Dec 21, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Now I've got to look that word up.
> I got to get out more often.



Basically means to reanimate the dead using some sort of magic, To bring back to life.
Ie; resurrecting old threads


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 21, 2010)

i like some of the old threads lol
there are some good topics id like to talk about


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## centerpin fan (Dec 21, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> i like some of the old threads lol
> there are some good topics id like to talk about



Just start a new thread.  No need to resurrect these old ones.


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## apoint (Dec 21, 2010)

I was in the book store yesterday and happened to see a lot of occult books and witchcraft books. I was amazed at how many devil books were there. One evil looking book caught my eye, the name was Necromancy. It means devination with dead.
 Right next to that book was- Harry Potter--. Enough said.....


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