# Random



## Four (Jan 14, 2013)

I think we could all benefit from a discussion about this word... I've been thinking about it some since the recent post about "Faith in Randomness".

So far, to me the concept of random is much like the concept of nothingness... 

I'd like to start with a few common definitions, from Merriam Webster.

1. lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern

2. relating to, having, or being elements or events with definite probability of occurrence

3. being or relating to a set or to an element of a set each of whose elements has equal probability of occurrence <a random sample>; also : characterized by procedures designed to obtain such sets or elements <random sampling>

From what I can gather, the word is mostly used when something happens, or can happen, but it is hard or impossible to predict or guess.

For instance, weather.

We know a lot about how weather works, there are some patterns, we've got pretty decent models to work from. We also know that it's an integral part of the world, rain, clouds, temperature etc.

All that being said, we might refer to having a random chance of being rained on when we walk outside..

Or if a bird pooped on you.. its not like that couldn't be predicted, but you'd have to know all the variables concerning avian bowl movements, the wind speed etc.. so we just call it random.

So.. random isn't a force.. it's irrational to say that  randomness actually caused anything, because random is just a thing, it's a description of possibility / an attribute.

So saying that the origin of the universe is random, you're not making a declaration that "random" caused the origin of the universe. You're saying that the process(es) that created the universe are random.... depending on how you mean random (given the definitions above)

So.. 
The creation of the universe lacked a plan / purpose

The creation of the universe had a definite probability of occurring.

The creation of the universe is unpredictable, or hard to predict / model?

Either way, saying something like having faith in randomness doesn't make sense to me.. neither does saying that you "believe in random" or something... 

What do you guys think? I feel that i also have to mention that to a determanist, there would be no such thing as anything truly random, right?


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## ambush80 (Jan 14, 2013)

That about covers it.  Now we should talk about goo that has intentions.


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## Thanatos (Jan 15, 2013)

Four said:


> I think we could all benefit from a discussion about this word... I've been thinking about it some since the recent post about "Faith in Randomness".
> 
> So far, to me the concept of random is much like the concept of nothingness...
> 
> ...



You perfectly described my thoughts as well. It is not possible for it to be randomly created. Agreed.


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## Four (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> You perfectly described my thoughts as well. It is not possible for it to be randomly created. Agreed.



non sequitor much?

The post made no claims, nor arguments about the nature of the universe or how it was created. I was discussing the use of a word, a word I believe you and some others are using incorrectly, or at least confusingly.


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## Thanatos (Jan 15, 2013)

Four said:


> non sequitor much?
> 
> The post made no claims, nor arguments about the nature of the universe or how it was created. I was discussing the use of a word, a word I believe you and some others are using incorrectly, or at least confusingly.



In my response I was being a smart A. 

What do you call a singularity spontaneously creating matter if you do not call it random?


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## Four (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> In my response I was being a smart A.
> 
> What do you call a singularity spontaneously creating matter if you do not call it random?



I generally don't call it much. I don't make a lot of solid claims about the origins of the universe. Even the experts have a pretty high rate of disagreement.

Standard Big Bang?
Big Bang / Big Crunch?
Multi-verse?
Computer simulation? (tee hee)

Regardless, It's a little off topic for the thread. I will try to appeal to you now to attempt to make a similar statement/claims without using the word random. Just to clarify what you mean.


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## Thanatos (Jan 15, 2013)

Four said:


> I generally don't call it much. I don't make a lot of solid claims about the origins of the universe. Even the experts have a pretty high rate of disagreement.
> 
> Standard Big Bang?
> Big Bang / Big Crunch?
> ...



The uncertainty is exactly what I want to appeal to in "faith in randomness". No matter your thoughts you have faith in some theory because no one knows. So my "fairy tale" is just as plausible as yours or IMHO more plausible.


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## Four (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> The uncertainty is exactly what I want to appeal to in "faith in randomness". No matter your thoughts you have faith in some theory because no one knows. So my "fairy tale" is just as plausible as yours or IMHO more plausible.



Uncertainty is universal, this is a philosophic issue that has been gone over a lot, and began a long time ago.

You may laugh, buy the whole brain in a jar argument or the demon playing trick argument technically cannot be proven false. We've got to admit it and move on. Yes everything i know could be wrong, you might not exist, i might be living in a computer simulation.

That doesn't mean that everything requires faith. Faith is not a synonym for belief. I don't have faith that it will be light out tomorrow morning. I believe it due to a vast amount of evidence.

Faith is the belief in something when there is no evidence, or the evidence is to the contrary.


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## Thanatos (Jan 15, 2013)

Four said:


> Uncertainty is universal, this is a philosophic issue that has been gone over a lot, and began a long time ago.
> 
> You may laugh, buy the whole brain in a jar argument or the demon playing trick argument technically cannot be proven false. We've got to admit it and move on. Yes everything i know could be wrong, you might not exist, i might be living in a computer simulation.
> 
> ...



I don't laugh. I love exploring those possibilities. 

Now to faith and belief. From the interwebs.

Faith
noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.

Belief
noun
1. something believed an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement unworthy of belief.
3. confidence; faith; trust: a child's belief in his parents.

Looks synonymous to me...you?


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## ambush80 (Jan 15, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> I don't laugh. I love exploring those possibilities.
> 
> Now to faith and belief. From the interwebs.
> 
> ...




What happens when the hypothesis is found to be contrary to fact?

Like Santa Claus.


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## Thanatos (Jan 16, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What happens when the hypothesis is found to be contrary to fact?
> 
> Like Santa Claus.



Santa Claus=God=Singularity ?


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## ambush80 (Jan 16, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> Santa Claus=God=Singularity ?




No one in their right mind would say that without a doubt any of them are absolutely real.


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## Thanatos (Jan 16, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> No one in their right mind would say that without a doubt any of them are absolutely real.



Without doubt I would not have the knowledge now to debate these topics with you.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 16, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What happens when the hypothesis is found to be contrary to fact?
> 
> Like Santa Claus.



Yeah, no, that is not how science works.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 16, 2013)

Four said:


> I think we could all benefit from a discussion about this word... I've been thinking about it some since the recent post about "Faith in Randomness".
> 
> So far, to me the concept of random is much like the concept of nothingness...
> 
> ...



An interesting topic. The other day at work I used a random number generator. I had to laugh. Someone created an algorithm to generate random numbers?

I'll have to think about it, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but as of right now, I don't think random exists. I think it is "concept" that humans created.


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## Four (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanatos said:


> I don't laugh. I love exploring those possibilities.
> 
> Now to faith and belief. From the interwebs.
> 
> ...



They're certainly used as synonyms by many people (including yourself and even Asath) I think it's confusing so I push for a difference. Faith naturally has a religious connotation, and when used in a religious way it means a belief in something in the absence or contrary to evidence. 

For instance, Belief:
I believe i'll go to the store today.
I believe there is more sugar in soda than ice tea.

Faith:
I have faith that my cancer will go away. (even if its stage 4 and your doctors told you it isn't going away)
I have faith in an afterlife.

Of course if you may continue to use them interchangeably, but i see that sometime used as a way to emotionally weaken a non-theist argument, in order to make religious and secular people look more similar.

In general, i find it confusing and distracting.


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## Four (Jan 18, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> An interesting topic. The other day at work I used a random number generator. I had to laugh. Someone created an algorithm to generate random numbers?



There are a LOT of algorithms for random number generators. The problem is you cant make it truly random... but some are better than others.

http://xkcd.com/221/




ted_BSR said:


> I'll have to think about it, and I reserve the right to change my mind, but as of right now, I don't think random exists. I think it is "concept" that humans created.



That's pretty much my thought, similar to the concept of "nothing


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## Thanatos (Jan 18, 2013)

Four said:


> They're certainly used as synonyms by many people (including yourself and even Asath) I think it's confusing so I push for a difference. Faith naturally has a religious connotation, and when used in a religious way it means a belief in something in the absence or contrary to evidence.
> 
> For instance, Belief:
> I believe i'll go to the store today.
> ...



That's because it is and it's semantics.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 19, 2013)

The number 11 pops up in my life alot. Is that "random"?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 27, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> What happens when the hypothesis is found to be contrary to fact?
> 
> Like Santa Claus.



Tell us more about the talking donkey....it's either poor ol' santa or that broke down ol' mule...


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## mtnwoman (Jan 27, 2013)

Four said:


> Faith:
> I have faith that my cancer will go away. (even if its stage 4 and your doctors told you it isn't going away)



Do you have faith that sciencetists can or will be able to cure cancer one day, like they have stopped many diseases before?


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