# Salvation? God or Jesus?



## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2017)

Acts 4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 6:37
37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.

John 6:65
Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to Me unless the Father has granted it to him."


Not to make this out to be Trinitarian or not but who actually saves? 
We have to be Elected by God or called by God or lead by God to receive Jesus. One can't just believe in Jesus without the Father. One can't believe in the Father without believing in Jesus.

Jesus made the sacrifice but John 3:16 says God did by giving us his only begotten Son.

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

John 5:23
so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2017)

It was Isaiah 43:10-12 that got me thinking about this;

10"You are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. 11"I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. 12"It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses," declares the LORD, "And I am God.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 1, 2017)

Jesus is God.  Problem solved.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is God.  Problem solved.



Actually that doesn't solve the problem at all. I want God and Jesus. I believe that Jesus is at the left hand of the Father and that when I get to Heaven, I'll see both.

But if one does believe Jesus is God, it does solve the question of the whole world knowing Jesus. Many around the world who've never heard the Gospel, know God by his Creation. So if they know God, they know Jesus.
Regardless, there is only one God. 

But I feel deeply that to know God one must know Jesus.

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

One can't receive salvation by just believing in God. One has to also believe in Jesus. Even if Jesus is God the Father incarnate. Even if Jesus is an incarnate of his always being 1/3 of the Godhead.

So regardless of how one views the Trinity or Oneness, one must believe in Jesus and God. Can't genuine Christians Be Trinitarian or Non-Trinitarian? Even Oneness?

That doesn't really answer my question though. With which part of the Godhead does our salvation lie? The Father or the Son? They are different persons of the same Godhead with different roles. Within which person can I have assurance of salvation?

I'm going to say both. God sent his only begotten Son to die for our sins. His Son accomplished his mission. God must lead one to Jesus in order for salvation to occur. 

It's impossible to have one without the other. Regardless of the Unity, we must separate. 

John 6:37
37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will never turn away. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 2, 2017)

How about this in Rev. 22?
 The Father and Son rule from the very same throne. 

Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb, 2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him


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## hobbs27 (Feb 3, 2017)

Benson Commentary
Revelation 22:1-2. And — Proceeding with his description of the heavenly city, the apostle observes, he — That is, the angel who condescended to be his guide on this occasion; showed me a pure river of the water of life — The ever fresh and fructifying influence of the Holy Spirit; see Ezekiel 47:1-12, where also the trees are mentioned which bear fruit every month, that is, perpetually. Proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb — All things that the Father hath, saith the Son of God, are mine; even the throne of his glory


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## hummerpoo (Feb 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I want God and Jesus.



???


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## centerpin fan (Feb 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I want God and Jesus.





hummerpoo said:


> ???



The Holy Spirit gets no love.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

Does this sound like we will only see God as Jesus in Heaven or both? Seeing God as only Jesus now is a Oneness belief.

Even as a Trinitarian, can't God be on one throne and Jesus sitting at his right? Does the Trinity deny this?


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## hobbs27 (Feb 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 John 2:23
> No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.
> 
> Does this sound like we will only see God as Jesus in Heaven or both? Seeing God as only Jesus now is a Oneness belief.
> ...



I think the sitting on thrones is figurative language but it shows the Son and the Father ruling as one.  Not separate Gods. Trinitarians believe in one God.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

I guess seeing God and Jesus as separate entities, even if equal parts of the same Godhead, might depend of how one believes he is going to Heaven. Physically or spiritually.

Meaning if one goes in a literal resurrected body, he may only see Jesus who also went in a resurrected body.
Believing that we go directly as a spirit means we will see as a spirit. We may be able to see both Jesus and God, even if they are equal parts of the same Godhead.

Oneness believe we will only see God as Jesus. I don't think I've ever heard a Trinitarian believe that but there are various beliefs within both concepts. 

I wonder if Jesus coming from Heaven and born a man, changes anything about his being when he ascended back to Heaven? Did he return to be in the same state he was in before he became a man, or did becoming a man change something about the state he is in now?

Somewhere along the way(incarnation) Jesus picked up a human soul/spirit. I would assume he still has it. Some futurist believe he parked it at the gates and will use it and it's body for the return trip.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

Back tot he OP;

John 3:17
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.

It was God's plan. The 1/3 of the Godhead known as Father or the Father who became the Son.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is God.  Problem solved.



What the preterist said ^^^^.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

1 Peter 3:22
who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand--with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Romans 8:34
Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died--more than that, who was raised to life--is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.

Mark 16:19
After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

John 14:2-3
2In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

Acts 1:11
"Men of Galilee," they said, "why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven."

What form, spiritual or literal is Jesus in today?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

Psalm 110:1
A psalm of David. The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit in the place of honor at my right hand until I humble your enemies, making them a footstool under your feet."

The LORD said to the Lord. Well from a Preterist view perhaps the lord is again one with the LORD being re-absorbed with the other 2/3's of the Godhead as it was when he shared God's glory.

I would have to assume the LORD has made them a footstool under the Lord's feet. So, yes in that timeline the Lord might not be literally at the LORD's side. 

I'm sure the Lord doesn't have an actual footstool made of enemies. Footstool is figurative. In that respect Jesus might not be at the right hand of God.

I would have to even assume all this is figurative. One can't sit or see in the spiritual world. One can unite. One can be absorbed. One can become. 

Jesus could intercede as a spirit even if re-absorbed into the Godhead that he was separated from at the incarnation.

The LORD 1/3 could say(spiritually) of course to the Lord 1/3 "sit at my right hand."

It's hard to picture the Oneness or Unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's even harder to see the separation.

One thing I'm having a problem seeing is that when Jesus became a man, he acquired a soul. He was every bit a man. He had to have a human soul. Perhaps the LORD was talking to the ascended & resurrected Lord's soul.


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## welderguy (Feb 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> What form, spiritual or literal is Jesus in today?



Glorified


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

What's a good interpretation of the figurative look at God the Father still having Power over  the Son even after the Ascension? 
                                                                                                              Matthew 26:24
Jesus replied, "You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God's right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven."
(this version has the Son seated in the place of power)

Jesus says to him, "You have said. But I say to you, from now on you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of Power and coming upon the clouds of heaven."
(This version has the Son sitting at the right hand of Power)

Hobbs has shown in Revelation that after the Ascension the Son was sitting in the throne of Power.

Could we say that since it says the Son of Man that maybe this is Jesus' man spirit/soul figuratively sitting next to the Father and that his 1/3 of the Godhead's spirit has reunited with the Father?

Maybe after the Ascension Jesus stayed separate until after the 2nd coming and is now reunited with the Godhead. Still doesn't explain what happens to the Son of Man's soul.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Glorified



The Son of Man's body or his soul? I guess both. Is this a separate spirit or being of the 1/3 of the Godhead known as the Son?
Did the Son return to the same form he was in before he came to the Earth to have the same glory he had with his Father?

Maybe just his man spirit was glorified and his God spirit was once again united with his Father's spirit as one.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

When we see Jesus, we will become like him. We are co-heirs with Christ. We share his glory.

Matthew 5:8
Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God.

Many folks saw Jesus. I know that I can't literally see God so that has to be figurative. I don't have this image of seeing God as meaning seeing Jesus. Mainly because when we see Jesus, we will become like him.

So maybe Heaven is this big giant Unity thing where we are all absorbed by the Spirit of God. Maybe seeing and being is because of a type of Unity or Oneness that we can't explain but one day become a part of.

The terms we use are all figurative. God's hands does not mean the hands of Jesus. It's not literal but figurative. The Spirit of God is huge. Christ wants us to have the same unity he has with his Father. He said this while he was a man. He had this unity as a man. He wants us to share this unity.

Yet even through all of this unity, we don't become God. God is still the POWER and always has and always be. We become joint heirs with Christ of this Power. We will reign with the Son.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 3, 2017)

The object of trinity teaching is this......
There is not one, without all aspects being included. He is one yet He is three. Yet even in three. He is One.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

Ronnie T said:


> The object of trinity teaching is this......
> There is not one, without all aspects being included. He is one yet He is three. Yet even in three. He is One.



My quest is, even if that's true, will we spiritually see or be a part of God and Jesus as being different parts or just spiritually see God as Jesus only?

If I were to die and go to Heaven tonight, would I see God and Jesus or would their unity be so close that I couldn't separate them?
How close would I become a part of this unity?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> ???



This verse tells me that I can have both;

2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 3, 2017)

John 7:16
"My teaching is not My own," Jesus replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me.

1 John 2:24
As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> This verse tells me that I can have both;
> 
> 2 John 1:9
> Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.



S-t-r-e-t-c-hing quite a bit, I think.

But, my point was, "What is the scriptural warrant for your demand, 'I want'?"


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> S-t-r-e-t-c-hing quite a bit, I think.
> 
> But, my point was, "What is the scriptural warrant for your demand, 'I want'?"



I don't believe I'm stretching 2 John 1:9 at all. It's not all about what I want. It's what God and Jesus tell me I can have. If they tell me I can have both, then I want both. I want the Father and Son. I want the same fellowship the Son has with His Father. I believe scripture is telling me that I can share that glory with Jesus as co-heir. This does not mean that I will become God. This means that I will experience Jesus and God. Perhaps the man spirit of Jesus will be separate and his God spirit will be back with the Godhead but none the less, I will experience both.

I didn't separate the Godhead into three beings. They came that way. If they came that way, then I have to assume it's OK to keep them that way.

The Father sent his Son. To me even if the Son has always existed, it was still the Father's power. The Father had to have authority over his Son in order to send him to the Earth. Even if they are parts of the deity. Even before the Son 1/3 incarnate as man. Otherwise the Father could not "send" his Son to do anything. Unless the Son gave up his equal power before the incarnation.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe I'm stretching 2 John 1:9 at all. It's not all about what I want. It's what God and Jesus tell me I can have.



o.k.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2017)

I still haven't had much input from others on how we will experience both the Father and Son in Heaven?
Will we see both or only see God as Jesus? 

Will we only see Jesus as his man spirit with his Spirit back with the Godhead SPIRIT? 

Somehow we must accommodate the spirit that the Son of Man has.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> o.k.



Do you deny the separation of the Trinity? I understand the unity and Oneness as you do. 
Do you believe we will only experience God through Jesus when we get to Heaven?


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you deny the separation of the Trinity.



Asked and answered.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Ask and answered.



I don't recall you saying how you believe you will experience God in Heaven? What post?

Can you answer something simple such as God through Jesus or it will be an explainable unity? 
We will only see Jesus who is God? We will experience both as one but separate?
We will be so much a part of their unity that we won't notice?

We'll all be spirits and only have a spiritual unity? We'll have a spiritual unity first and physical unity later? We'll have to wait for the 2nd coming to have a physical unity with Jesus but will still experience him spiritually if we die before then?


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## hummerpoo (Feb 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't recall you saying how you believe you will experience God in Heaven?



I did not and I will not.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 4, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> I did not and I will not.



I think the more we study things from God, the closer we are in many beliefs than we first realized. That most beliefs aren't so black and white. 
We see unity and Oneness of God and also we see a Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that none of us can explain.
I'll respect  your answer about how God will be revealed in Heaven.

In my quest, I hope to see both. Maybe I'll be so overwhelmed with God's glory I'll just "see" unity.


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## hummerpoo (Feb 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think the more we study things from God, the closer we are in many beliefs than we first realized. That most beliefs aren't so black and white.
> We see unity and Oneness of God and also we see a Trinity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit that none of us can explain.
> I'll respect  your answer about how God will be revealed in Heaven.
> 
> In my quest, I hope to see both. Maybe I'll be so overwhelmed with God's glory I'll just "see" unity.



I think you have gotten lost in the conversation by substituting one question for another.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 5, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> I think you have gotten lost in the conversation by substituting one question for another.



True, salvation is from God. That's the simple answer but we must add "through his Son Jesus Christ."

It's God that leads us to his Son. Without God doing this leading, the Son's salvation is useless.

John 17:5-7
5And now, Father, glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed. 6I have revealed Your name to those You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours; You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7Now they know that everything You have given Me comes from You.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.


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