# Inside Nature's Giants



## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

Any body seen this show?  It's awesome!

http://www.pbs.org/programs/inside-natures-giants/

Richard Dawkins gives Evolutionary commentary.


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## bullethead (Feb 9, 2012)

Looks interesting, thanks for the heads up.


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## Four (Feb 9, 2012)

wow this looks awesome, thanks for sharing


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

Every time I watch that show I can just hear someone from this forum saying "How do they know how old that fossil is ?" or "What makes them so sure that that animal 'evolved' from that one?" or "You'd have to believe in 'miracles' to swallow that load of bull hockey"


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## stringmusic (Feb 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Every time I watch that show I can just hear someone from this forum saying "How do they know how old that fossil is ?" or "What makes them so sure that that animal 'evolved' from that one?" or "You'd have to believe in 'miracles' to swallow that load of bull hockey"



Ahhh science worship, my favorite.


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## bullethead (Feb 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Ahhh science worship, my favorite.



Crazy when people believe in actual things. The nerve....


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## Four (Feb 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Crazy when people believe in actual things. The nerve....



this is a fair representation of my feelings


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## stringmusic (Feb 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Crazy when people believe in actual things. The nerve....



It's sad when thats all you have, the physical.....


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## stringmusic (Feb 9, 2012)

Four said:


> this is a fair representation of my feelings



We had a long thread on this a while back. Good thing God created those scientist.


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## bullethead (Feb 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> We had a long thread on this a while back. Good thing God created those scientist.



Yeah but which God?


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## Four (Feb 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> We had a long thread on this a while back. Good thing God created those scientist.



aww so much for free will


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Ahhh science worship, my favorite.




You're not going to watch any of it are you?  You're completely content with the information you have about giant fishes provided to you by the Bible.  See, here's the thing:  I like science fiction.  I like how the people who write Star Trek  try to postulate how Warp Drive engines might actually work.  Similarly, I would like to know how someone would explain how a man might live in a fish for three days.  Why don't believers ever attempt to explain this?  That's what apologetics is, you know?  Lets try, together, to work out a best guess using all the things we know about how things work to come up with an explanation as to how such a thing might have happened, shall we?  I'll start.

I'd like to work from the hypothesis that Jonah was in the fishes stomach.  I theorize that God created a chamber within the stomach of the fish that protected Noah from the digestive juices. Perhaps it was made of material that was in the fishes stomach already.  A cyst perhaps?  Now the question of air for Jonah to breathe.  Maybe we should back up.  Noah was in a cyst connected to one of the fishes gills.......

Don't you just love science?


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## drippin' rock (Feb 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You're not going to watch any of it are you?  You're completely content with the information you have about giant fishes provided to you by the Bible.  See, here's the thing:  I like science fiction.  I like how the people who write Star Trek  try to postulate how Warp Drive engines might actually work.  Similarly, I would like to know how someone would explain how a man might live in a fish for three days.  Why don't believers ever attempt to explain this?  That's what apologetics is, you know?  Lets try, together, to work out a best guess using all the things we know about how things work to come up with an explanation as to how such a thing might have happened, shall we?  I'll start.
> 
> I'd like to work from the hypothesis that Noah was in the fishes stomach.  I theorize that God created a chamber within the stomach of the fish that protected Noah from the digestive juices. Perhaps it was made of material that was in the fishes stomach already.  A cyst perhaps?  Now the question of air for Noah to breathe.  Maybe we should back up.  Noah was in a cyst connected to one of the fishes gills.......
> 
> Don't you just love science?



Noah?


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> Noah?



I think it's a good one for starters since the first episode they dissect a Sperm Whale.  I know, I know, not a giant fish.  For the sake of discussion I encourage some latitude.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 9, 2012)

I think I missed a day of Sunday school.  When did Noah get swallowed?


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## stringmusic (Feb 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I think it's a good one for starters since the first episode they dissect a Sperm Whale.  I know, I know, not a giant fish.  For the sake of discussion I encourage some latitude.



Your thinking of Jonah, Ambush. I am not going to type a lot because I'm on my wife's phone, we will have a go tomorrow.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You're not going to watch any of it are you?  You're completely content with the information you have about giant fishes provided to you by the Bible.  See, here's the thing:  I like science fiction.  I like how the people who write Star Trek  try to postulate how Warp Drive engines might actually work.  Similarly, I would like to know how someone would explain how a man might live in a fish for three days.  Why don't believers ever attempt to explain this?  That's what apologetics is, you know?  Lets try, together, to work out a best guess using all the things we know about how things work to come up with an explanation as to how such a thing might have happened, shall we?  I'll start.
> 
> I'd like to work from the hypothesis that Noah was in the fishes stomach.  I theorize that God created a chamber within the stomach of the fish that protected Noah from the digestive juices. Perhaps it was made of material that was in the fishes stomach already.  A cyst perhaps?  Now the question of air for Noah to breathe.  Maybe we should back up.  Noah was in a cyst connected to one of the fishes gills.......
> 
> Don't you just love science?



He didn't have to breathe.  He was in a state of suspended animation.  That would be easier than forming a cyst, I think.


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> I think I missed a day of Sunday school.  When did Noah get swallowed?



My bad. Sorry.  

Thanks, String!  I'm bad with names but good with faces.



stringmusic said:


> Your thinking of Jonah, Ambush. I am not going to type a lot because I'm on my wife's phone, we will have a go tomorrow.



I'll think on it some more myself.


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> He didn't have to breathe.  He was in a state of suspended animation.  That would be easier than forming a cyst, I think.



Anything scriptural to back this up?  Not that I would need it but it would be cool if there was some.  Why would "ease" be germane to the miracle.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2012)

I'm okay explaining things in the Bible with science. If I didn't I would have to assume rainbows didn't exist before the flood. Why aren't more people against the scientific explanation of rainbows? I'm not saying everything in the Bible can be explained by science.


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm okay explaining things in the Bible with science. If I didn't I would have to assume rainbows didn't exist before the flood. Why aren't more people against the scientific explanation of rainbows? I'm not saying everything in the Bible can be explained by science.



I understand that at it's core that the Bible defies scientific scrutiny.  

I remember in Sunday School we were discussing the crucifixion.  The teacher gave an explanation of why water came forth when Jesus' side was pierced with a spear.  He explained that when the body expires that the blood will often separate; hemoglobin from plasma.  It was proof positive that Jesus was stone dead.  That may have been my first experience with Apologetics.  

I think we, intelligent posters all, can come up with similar hypotheses as to what happened to Jonah.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Anything scriptural to back this up?  Not that I would need it but it would be cool if there was some.  Why would "ease" be germane to the miracle.



Of course there isn't.  I was just pulling ideas out of thin air.  As to "ease"  I guess that was pointless too.  If it were a miracle by God, anything would be possible.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 9, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I understand that at it's core that the Bible defies scientific scrutiny.
> 
> I remember in Sunday School we were discussing the crucifixion.  The teacher gave an explanation of why water came forth when Jesus' side was pierced with a spear.  He explained that when the body expires that the blood will often separate; hemoglobin from plasma.  It was proof positive that Jesus was stone dead.  That may have been my first experience with Apologetics.
> 
> I think we, intelligent posters all, can come up with similar hypotheses as to what happened to Jonah.



I can't think of any scientific way a great fish could swallow a human and that human survive.  I think the story is oral retelling passed on from place to place, with no basis in reality.  That's why Divine Intervention works.  No need to back it up with facts.


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## ambush80 (Feb 9, 2012)

drippin' rock said:


> I can't think of any scientific way a great fish could swallow a human and that human survive.  I think the story is oral retelling passed on from place to place, with no basis in reality.  That's why Divine Intervention works.  No need to back it up with facts.



There are people who believe that this actually happened.   I just wonder if they ever gave it any thought as to how it might have happened.  I'm willing to concede that it may have happened and have some theories based on what I know about the natural world as to how.

All I seek are hypotheses.

Here's one: "force field".  Any believers on board with that one?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 9, 2012)

He was inside a giant abandoned clam shell full of oxygen producing algae. This would be like a tiny little submarine. I bet it was a fantastic voyage! The force field is too modern


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> He was inside a giant abandoned clam shell full of oxygen producing algae. This would be like a tiny little submarine. I bet it was a fantastic voyage! The force field is too modern



 A clam shell that the fish ate? Why would that not be part of the oral tradition?

What does "modern" mean to God?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 10, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> We had a long thread on this a while back. Good thing God created those scientist.



And gave them a brain and the idea.


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## Four (Feb 10, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> And gave them a brain and the idea.



1 Timothy 2:12
King James Version (KJV)
 12But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> And gave them a brain and the idea.




Hey Annie,  what is your best guess as to how Jonah might have survived in the great fish?


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2012)

Why isn't the scientific explanation of rainbows in the bible? The Ark of the Covenant isn't described as a battery either. Mannah as lichens? Wind parting the Red Sea (with God's help)?


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why isn't the scientific explanation of rainbows in the bible? The Ark of the Covenant isn't described as a battery either. Mannah as lichens? Wind parting the Red Sea (with God's help)?



I've seen many shows that attempt to explain what might have happened to the Red Sea.  All of the explanations were incredibly interesting.  I saw a show that theorized that a the desert wanderers used a "Manna Machine" that created spirulina, a highly nutritious form of algae.


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## stringmusic (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> *Why isn't the scientific explanation of rainbows in the bible?* The Ark of the Covenant isn't described as a battery either. Mannah as lichens? Wind parting the Red Sea (with God's help)?


Why would it be?


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## gtparts (Feb 10, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Why would it be?



For me, that question demands an answer.

The obvious answer is that the Bible is not a science book..... never was intended for that purpose. 

Since Scripture is intended to address spiritual matters, so that we can get our relationships right (with God and our fellow man), as well as reveal to us the God of creation, the matter of science is left to science. It simply isn't relevant to the intended purpose. Had God produced a book on science for the people of 2k or 4k or 6k years ago in the detail that we now observe and function today, they would have been totally clueless. I think it safe to say that if He were to give us a book today that covers the level of science and understanding of 3500 years from now, we'd be totally blown away, too. 

It just seems silly to pick up a book of Jules Verne and expect to get answers to the problems of space travel. (Boy, what a stupid dude. He can't even explain oxygen generators or re-entry angles and glide paths with accurate, scientific detail, much less the thousands of other issues.)


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## ambush80 (Feb 10, 2012)

gtparts said:


> For me, that question demands an answer.
> 
> The obvious answer is that the Bible is not a science book..... never was intended for that purpose.
> 
> ...



The Bible is NOT a science book.  Everyone agrees on that point.  The Bible does, however, describe events that contradict what we know about the natural world through science.  For the sake of discussion, I concede that those supernatural events may have happened.  Is it unreasonable to postulate on HOW they might have happened?  

If the Bible described some as of yet unknown source of vast and unlimited power,  I'm certain that scientists wouldn't simply be "blown away", but would instead investigate the possibility of such a thing.  Have you ever seen that series called ".........-tek"?  They had a Batman-tek episode where they attempted to determine the plausibility of Batman's gadgets to exist.  Then the had a Star Trek-tek episode.  What I propose for this discussion is a Bible-tek.

If i remember correctly in _20,000 Leagues Under the Sea_, Verne made and attempt to describe the nature of the as of yet undiscovered technology used in the book.  DaVinci described and illustrated technology that was inconceivable to almost everyone but him during his time.  As technology advanced, many people tried to bring his designs to life.  Some were abysmal failures, some were close and some were right on.  Same with Verne's future tek.  I don't see why any tek in the Bible would be treated differently.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2012)

The scientific explanation of rainbows isn't in the Bible nor does it need to be. Just like the scientific explanation of how Jonah survived in the big fish. The point I was trying to make is, why is it wrong to explain some things in the Bible (Jonah) with science but okay to explain other things in the Bible (rainbows) with science? Christians don't get outraged when someone explains a rainbow as a prism effect?


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## ted_BSR (Feb 10, 2012)

Anyone familiar with it can apply the scientific method to biblical stories. The results would vary just like with any other type of scientific investigation. Sometimes you come up with a hypothesis that you can support through scientific experimentation, and sometimes you reject the hypothesis.

Science does not lead to the truth, it is only a language used to describe observations through the scientific method. That being said, it absolutely helps us to understand phenomena better, and engineer solutions to problems (like creating prosthetics for amputees).


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## JB0704 (Feb 10, 2012)

One thing about the flood and rainbows, and I am not a scholar here, but doesn't the Bible say that it never rained before the flood?  That would explain why rainbows were a new thing when the sun broke through.

Also, if I remember correctly, different cultures all over the world have a story of a great flood.  It is not limited to the Jewish tradition.


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## bullethead (Feb 10, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> One thing about the flood and rainbows, and I am not a scholar here, but doesn't the Bible say that it never rained before the flood?  That would explain why rainbows were a new thing when the sun broke through.
> 
> Also, if I remember correctly, different cultures all over the world have a story of a great flood.  It is not limited to the Jewish tradition.



Lots of floods happen in localized areas. What would people 2000 years ago think about New Orleans if it happened then? Most of those great flood stories are from that region because there was a pretty darned good flood in that region. It spawned some great stories too. It was not worldwide.


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## ted_BSR (Feb 10, 2012)

I watched about 20 minutes of the lion and tiger show. Very interesting, but I have to say that there was very little scientific method going on, it was largely centered on investigation (data collection). Then they would go off on some 400 million year ago tangent and treat it as definitive fact. They made giant leaps of faith. There were no hypotheses, just we are gonna set up a microphone and play some lion calls and “see what happens”.  They conducted an experiment and then formulated several hypotheses. That is not science by its own definition. I guess any PHD can get funding. I was disappointed to see the haphazard pursuit of science by “experts”.

So, science is what it is, and like anything else, scientists can get too wrapped up in themselves to do it correctly. Same goes for us Christians and Christianity. I hypothesize that this phenomenon is a product of the human condition and our tendency towards self importance. I am not sure how to test this hypothesis yet.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 10, 2012)

Are rainbows a sign from God or light refracted through raindrops? It can't be both or can it? God made the earth, sun, trees, & rain yet we can explain all of them with science.


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## JB0704 (Feb 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Lots of floods happen in localized areas. What would people 2000 years ago think about New Orleans if it happened then? Most of those great flood stories are from that region because there was a pretty darned good flood in that region. It spawned some great stories too. It was not worldwide.



Yes.  But you guys often ask why all these things only happened in the Bible.  Noah's ark is not 100% unique to the Bible.  The names change, the reasons change, and all that, but there was some kind of flood.

The best theory I ever heard on it was the asteroid that hit the indian ocean and made Madagascar was responsible for a lot of flooding.

I hate getting into this stuff, because I do think a lot of metaphor is involved in many of these stories.  But, y'all were asking  about rainbows in the Bible....and since we were mixing science and religion, I thought I would point out that if it had not rained pre-flood, the rainbow wouldn't have ever been seen.   Just an interesting observation is all.


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## ted_BSR (Feb 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are rainbows a sign from God or light refracted through raindrops? It can't be both or can it? God made the earth, sun, trees, & rain yet we can explain all of them with science.



That is because that is what science is. A language to describe things.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 10, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> There are people who believe that this actually happened.   I just wonder if they ever gave it any thought as to how it might have happened.  I'm willing to concede that it may have happened and have some theories based on what I know about the natural world as to how.
> 
> All I seek are hypotheses.
> 
> Here's one: "force field".  Any believers on board with that one?



I backquoted to the wrong post, this was about your story of noah the fish bait guy..lol

Ya know, I never even think about that story, dwell on it, 'worship' using it, pray about it everyday.....the only time I even think about it, is when you and others bring up the fish story, over and over. It is what it is. I believe it happened, how exactly, I don't know, but no matter, I believe it happened and my everyday life, my witness, my praise and worship, my charity, trying to be a better person is not based on that one story. I don't even have anything I can apply it to in my own personal life.

Also I think the noah story is just good as anyone else has to offer about where all the other animials (dinosauers) disappeared to. And that story doesn't effect how I believe either.

Take evolution or other scientific theories, God created the scientists and the science. No scientist has created anything from nothing. So I believe in science...and I don't give two hoots how many gazillion years the earth was here....because I don't really know when God created it, remodeled it or whatever, so that doesn't effect my relationship with Christ and other Christians. So many things are believable and make sense if you understand the big picture, that the things I'm not sure how it happened that I just don't dwell on it.

What about all the rest of the bible except a few talking donkeys a whale, and a burning bush, could be possible?

Read Ester, that book is totally possible.
Also,so is Ruth.
So is Psalms written by David

You pick 5 verses out of thousands about a whale or a donkey and dismiss everything else in the book, even scientists don't do that.

Just because there was one error written 100 years ago in a history book that we studied in high school....that it means every thing else is also an error. Can't you do that with the bible?

I get so weary of the same old unbelievable things in the bible when 97% of the bible is possible......and one just learned that was always thought impossible by naysayers like you, was the virgin story, you do know that a virgin can have a child, don't you? I'm sure that was one of the impossible things, not so many years ago. God reveals things as we go.

I'm gonna stop my rant here...

I can see why you don't believe or understand the bible though....noah? really? when it was jonah. And yeah yeah I know you'll say it was a mistake and I can dig that but you make lots of mistakes when you personally are expressing things in the bible. Perhaps if you really knew what it said, it might make sense....or might not.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Hey Annie,  what is your best guess as to how Jonah might have survived in the great fish?



I'll tell you what if you'll read the book of Ruth and the book of Ester, they are both short, and tell me if those stories make sense. I'll search until I find a biblical response to your question from several bible experts.

Don't you get tired of talking about 2 minor things in the bible to debate on.  All the bible stories and you got 2 under your belt, what about all the other bible stories that are possible, and most of them are.

Even Gems admitted that history books make mistakes and they are corrected....what? do you throw the rest of the book away as totally incorrect? Why do you do that with the bible?....there are way too many more things that make sense, than don't make sense.

I don't know how the jonah survived in the fish. That is not salvation rendering, that doesn't make all the beautiful psalms worthless....or proverbs, most of those make sense don't they? try reading it.

Leave the fish and donkey alone please, it is on a minor scale, personally to me, of all the things that are possible. There is too much that outweigh that have come to pass that were in bible  many years ago.

The bible says the earth was a sphere......and guess what? it is. I don't care if uninformed christians or scientists believed it was flat.....it wasn't was it? How did the bible say that many years before it was proven?

Also it says our life is in the blood in the old testment....it is, our dna is our own one of a kind identifier.  The old temple IS buried under the mosque. So many things and all you got are a fish and an ark, and a donkey.......really? And I don't even care about those things, doesn't effect my spiritual life, because anything in the supernatural can occur and I don't understand a lot of it.

People talk about the red sea.....ya know how a tsunami works? Maybe that occurred, I don't know, but it has been proven that it is possible in that area of the red sea from an earth quake.

If those are the only reasons you don't believe anything else in the bible......then you are looking for excuses for yourself and towards how you feel about your family or maybe about your family feels about you, like your mama.

Just think about it. 
and I'm saying this because I care about you, and not saying it in a mean way. Ya know that's what Christians do and they are rentlentless because they care, not because we get a brownie point, or an m&m.....we do it because Jesus says to, not because we always enjoy the people that we're witnessing to. I could be making jewelry, sometimes that's much more fun...but the Jesus in me still seeks you.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are rainbows a sign from God or light refracted through raindrops? It can't be both or can it? God made the earth, sun, trees, & rain yet we can explain all of them with science.





I like that thought!

He feeds us a little at a time until we understand all of creation. There's nothing new under the sun, says the bible. And we are finding out bits at a time, thru scientists, those that God created to inform us. There is a purpose to everything under heaven.....43 billion pieces of a puzzle fit together perfectly, to make our world even exist....and that doesn't seem possible? obviously it all works together.


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## Asath (Feb 11, 2012)

Can I play?  I say that Jonah was actually on a hook, and the Lord was using him as bait to catch the giant man-eating rogue fish, so He could punish the fish for failing in his Bible studies.  I mean, what sort of fish fails to realize that only God gets to kill his people? Silly fish.  Lucky for the fish, God had much more mercy on the fish than he had on many of His people, and only made the fish vomit Jonah back up.  

This episode might cause PETA to make a bit more sense.  The fish was spared, by God’s mercy.  Can’t say the same for those darned Egyptians . . .


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## bullethead (Feb 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I backquoted to the wrong post, this was about your story of noah the fish bait guy..lol
> 
> Ya know, I never even think about that story, dwell on it, 'worship' using it, pray about it everyday.....the only time I even think about it, is when you and others bring up the fish story, over and over. It is what it is. I believe it happened, how exactly, I don't know, but no matter, I believe it happened and my everyday life, my witness, my praise and worship, my charity, trying to be a better person is not based on that one story. I don't even have anything I can apply it to in my own personal life.
> 
> ...



I think you are mistaken about the actual number of errors,contradictions and untruths there are in the Bible. The 5 are just 5 of thousands just like them. I also think your 97% possibility claim is grossly exaggerated. 
By your criteria I am going to have to re-read Star Wars and use it as my Bible and religion because even though outlandish in some parts, a lot of it is possible. The Force, Good vs Evil, The Darkside, mystical powers, believable stories........I am almost convinced I should lead my life according to George Lucas!


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## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I'll tell you what if you'll read the book of Ruth and the book of Ester, they are both short, and tell me if those stories make sense. I'll search until I find a biblical response to your question from several bible experts.
> 
> Don't you get tired of talking about 2 minor things in the bible to debate on.  All the bible stories and you got 2 under your belt, what about all the other bible stories that are possible, and most of them are.
> 
> ...



You have alot to say.  I'll deal with each part separately.  To the portion in blue:

I agree with you that the Bible needs some editing.

We don't have to talk about burning bushes, giant fishes and talking donkeys anymore, though I will gladly discuss them with anybody else.  Lets talk about someone rising form the dead.


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## JB0704 (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Lets talk about someone rising form the dead.



When you can believe that, the rest doesn't matter, really.

Truth is, I think much of the OT is verbal Jewish tradition passed down, and many of the stories are not literal, but I do believe in the resurection.

If there is a God, then he is the giver of life.  It's that simple.  If I can believe God exists, and a man claiming to be God's son gets crucified by some well trained executioners, then is able to rise again, well, I think his is the faith I want.  And here is where faith is necessary....because it doesn't make any sense.  But folks saw it, talked about it, told their friends, and traveled the world to tell folks there is something better out there.  

Somewhere along the way, Christians got caught up in the same mess the Pharisees of the NT did, and let their religion get in the way of their faith. But, the message is the same today as it was before he was crucified....Love God, love your neighbors.  Nothing wrong with that.


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## bullethead (Feb 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> And here is where faith is necessary....because it doesn't make any sense.  But folks saw it, talked about it, told their friends, and traveled the world to tell folks there is something better out there.



But the folks that saw it aren't the ones that wrote about it.  Those events(real man, preaching good things, and going against the establishment got himself killed for doing so) got turned into incredible feats decades after it all happened. Faith is hoping there was more to the actual events than what really happened.


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## JB0704 (Feb 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Faith is hoping there was more to the actual events than what really happened.



It seems as if you and I are both filling in some gaps.


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## bullethead (Feb 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> It seems as if you and I are both filling in some gaps.



We don't need to, the writers did an incredibly bad job on their own.


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## ted_BSR (Feb 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I think you are mistaken about the actual number of errors,contradictions and untruths there are in the Bible. The 5 are just 5 of thousands just like them. I also think your 97% possibility claim is grossly exaggerated.
> By your criteria I am going to have to re-read Star Wars and use it as my Bible and religion because even though outlandish in some parts, a lot of it is possible. The Force, Good vs Evil, The Darkside, mystical powers, believable stories........I am almost convinced I should lead my life according to George Lucas!



Darth Bullethead!  Or would you be a Jedi? Just a joke BH!


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## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> When you can believe that, the rest doesn't matter, really.
> 
> Truth is, I think much of the OT is verbal Jewish tradition passed down, and many of the stories are not literal, but I do believe in the resurection.
> 
> ...



If you can believe in a resurrection then you can believe in a talking donkey and that makes you one of "those people" in my book.  I am friends with some of "those people", blood relative to some in fact and it would never prevent me from being your friend.  You seem like a good guy but you believe in haints.  More power to ya.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I backquoted to the wrong post, this was about your story of noah the fish bait guy..lol
> 
> Ya know, I never even think about that story, dwell on it, 'worship' using it, pray about it everyday.....the only time I even think about it, is when you and others bring up the fish story, over and over. It is what it is. I believe it happened, how exactly, I don't know, but no matter, I believe it happened and my everyday life, my witness, my praise and worship, my charity, trying to be a better person is not based on that one story. I don't even have anything I can apply it to in my own personal life.



You can apply it to how you view information.  Are you the kind of person that will accept some nonsensical thing as the truth or are you not?   And that will affect the way that you think of everything else.  I'm glad if you bake cookies for orphans or whatever you do because you want to please the holy spirit but it's not the same as doing good because you know that it's good.



mtnwoman said:


> Also I think the noah story is just good as anyone else has to offer about where all the other animials (dinosauers) disappeared to. And that story doesn't effect how I believe either.
> 
> Take evolution or other scientific theories, God created the scientists and the science. No scientist has created anything from nothing. So I believe in science...and I don't give two hoots how many gazillion years the earth was here....because I don't really know when God created it, remodeled it or whatever, so that doesn't effect my relationship with Christ and other Christians. So many things are believable and make sense if you understand the big picture, that the things I'm not sure how it happened that I just don't dwell on it.



That makes you a "I don't give two hoots" kind of person.  You're not to old to start giving a hoot.



mtnwoman said:


> What about all the rest of the bible except a few talking donkeys a whale, and a burning bush, could be possible?



Shall we really list all the things?   



mtnwoman said:


> Read Ester, that book is totally possible.
> Also,so is Ruth.
> So is Psalms written by David
> 
> You pick 5 verses out of thousands about a whale or a donkey and dismiss everything else in the book, even scientists don't do that.



Yes they do.  If a scientist wrote a paper about how he created a machine that produced vast and unlimited energy and he used impeccable calculations, had well documented experiments but in the end claimed that in order for the machine to work that it needed to be rubbed with magic pixie dust I don't think MOST people would give him much credit.  Of course it's quite obvious that some people will buy anything.  If only they could get a hold of some pixie dust...




mtnwoman said:


> Just because there was one error written 100 years ago in a history book that we studied in high school....that it means every thing else is also an error. Can't you do that with the bible?



Yes.  some of that stuff was completely thrown out because we know better today.

I can forgive the writers of the Bible.  They made horrible mistakes.   They didn't know as much as we do now and just like science books get revised, so should the Bible.   The new, correct version won't take up nearly as much space in the hotel night stand.



mtnwoman said:


> I get so weary of the same old unbelievable things in the bible when 97% of the bible is possible......and one just learned that was always thought impossible by naysayers like you, was the virgin story, you do know that a virgin can have a child, don't you? I'm sure that was one of the impossible things, not so many years ago. God reveals things as we go.
> 
> I'm gonna stop my rant here...
> 
> I can see why you don't believe or understand the bible though....noah? really? when it was jonah. And yeah yeah I know you'll say it was a mistake and I can dig that but you make lots of mistakes when you personally are expressing things in the bible. Perhaps if you really knew what it said, it might make sense....or might not.



About the virgin birth:  do you think God created a sperm and implanted it in the fallopian tube or did he just "poof" the DNA directly into the egg?  Or did he "poof" a fetus into her uterus?  How old do you think that fetus might have been?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> If you can believe in a resurrection then you can believe in a talking donkey and that makes you one of "those people" in my book.  I am friends with some of "those people", blood relative to some in fact and it would never prevent me from being your friend.  You seem like a good guy but you believe in haints.  More power to ya.



Ok.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.



Didn't mean to offend you.

-peace


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Didn't mean to offend you.
> 
> -peace



It's all good.  Not offended.  It is difficult to discuss the difference between talking donkeys and a resurection, so I am going to avoid it, because at the end of the day I will end up getting hated from all sides because I don't believe like either of them.  But, I don't believe in haints either. It is a different way of looking at things, I know, but it makes sense to me.  If I didn't believe in the resurection, then I wouldn't believe in Jesus, if that makes sense.  It is what "proves" he is who he said he was (you have to accept the evidence in order to draw the conclusion, which I do in this case).   

I believe in God, and God is the source of life.  That is a logical conclusion.  Because I believe that, it would make sense that God would have the ability to restore life.   If Jesus did resurect, and we could prove it, we would all believe in God wouldn't we?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> Darth Bullethead!  Or would you be a Jedi? Just a joke BH!



More like one of the Sand People. Lots of oooga-boooga yelling but still just a bit part.

But heyyyy, Don't make fun of the Force, use it.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> It's all good.  Not offended.  It is difficult to discuss the difference between talking donkeys and a resurection, so I am going to avoid it, because at the end of the day I will end up getting hated from all sides because I don't believe like either of them.  But, I don't believe in haints either. It is a different way of looking at things, I know, but it makes sense to me.  If I didn't believe in the resurection, then I wouldn't believe in Jesus, if that makes sense.  It is what "proves" he is who he said he was (you have to accept the evidence in order to draw the conclusion, which I do in this case).
> 
> I believe in God, and God is the source of life.  That is a logical conclusion.  Because I believe that, it would make sense that God would have the ability to restore life.   If Jesus did resurect, and we could prove it, we would all believe in God wouldn't we?



Not necessarily.  We would have to change the way that we think about life and death, though.

Unless you start quoting scripture as if it's the unquestioned truth, I don't think you'll offend anybody here, probably not even then.  

Though difficult, I'd like to try to discuss the difference between the possibility of a resurrection and a talking donkey. If you want to.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Though difficult, I'd like to try to discuss the difference between the possibility of a resurrection and a talking donkey. If you want to.



You are going to get me in trouble here.

My wife is trying to drag me to a movie.  So I will post a few quick thoughts, and I will follow up later.

Talking donkeys are not central to the theme of the Bible or my faith, it is an irrelevant note in the OT.  Many parts of the OT are debateable as to whether or not they were ever intended to be viewed as historical fact or if the author understood that the audience would view it as we would any fictional tale with a "moral."

For instance, I do not believe Jonah was swallowed by a whale, or that Satan killed all of Job's kids.  The factual accuracy of either of those stories is irrelevant to the message which is being conveyed.  The same could be said for the talking donkey.  The theme of the story is not "God can make donkey's talk."

I don't think the authors of the Bible set out to prove that God existed, so I don't view every story as another "evidence" of his power and greatness.  The authors assumed the reader believed in God, and in many cases, were telling stories for future generations to learn from.  Kind-of like how we believe George Washington chopped down a cherry tree (he didn't).

But, the resurection was told to prove God existed, and it is central to the theme and message of the Bible.  The authors believed it happened, and the way it is conveyed is with the intent to convince the reader it happened.

So, we have a different purpose for the message in both circumstances.  And, if God wanted to get our attention, he could do so without making Donkeys talk.  If God wanted to prove he was powerful, he could do so without allowing Satan to kill all of Job's kids. 

But, if he wanted us to believe Jesus was who he said he was........what better way than proving the power over death.

That sums it up, enjoy picking it apart.


----------



## drippin' rock (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You can apply it to how you view information.  Are you the kind of person that will accept some nonsensical thing as the truth or are you not?   And that will affect the way that you think of everything else.  I'm glad if you bake cookies for orphans or whatever you do because you want to please the holy spirit but it's not the same as doing good because you know that it's good.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I am having a difficult time applying science to some of the stories of the Bible.  The problem is the stories I can think of either happened by divine will or they didn't happen at all.   Either God poofed a fertilized egg in to Mary's womb or she just got pregnant the good ole fashioned way, or maybe aliens did it.

Either God spoke to Moses through a burning bush, or Moses was high on payote. 

Either a fish swallowed Jonah and God kept him alive for 3 days, or it simply did not happen.

Either Noah got two of every kangaroo, wombat, and three toed sloth, or he did not, and it is just oral tradition passed on from tribe to tribe embellished with each retelling until  finally generations later it got put on paper.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 11, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> About the virgin birth:  do you think God created a sperm and implanted it in the fallopian tube or did he just "poof" the DNA directly into the egg?  Or did he "poof" a fetus into her uterus?  How old do you think that fetus might have been?



The Holy Spirit overcame Mary and she became with child....it was supernatural insemination.  If I believe part, then I believe all.  This was an important event in the bible. So it would be something I'd personally be more concerned about than some other things.  Course I can't prove it, just like no one here can disprove it.


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## bullethead (Feb 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> The Holy Spirit overcame Mary and she became with child....it was supernatural insemination.  If I believe part, then I believe all.  This was an important event in the bible. So it would be something I'd personally be more concerned about than some other things.  Course I can't prove it, just like no one here can disprove it.



No free will when the holy spirit gets shore leave.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I think you are mistaken about the actual number of errors,contradictions and untruths there are in the Bible. The 5 are just 5 of thousands just like them. I also think your 97% possibility claim is grossly exaggerated.
> By your criteria I am going to have to re-read Star Wars and use it as my Bible and religion because even though outlandish in some parts, a lot of it is possible. The Force, Good vs Evil, The Darkside, mystical powers, believable stories........I am almost convinced I should lead my life according to George Lucas!



And how does George Lucas tell you how to lead your life?

I must just be more open minded than some of y'all. I was never interested in Star Wars, but I am familiar with it and I'm not a naysayer that all those things are impossible.  If you believe in the supernatural, you are much more open to possibilities of almost any kind and that sure does make life interesting to me. There are many things that appeared to be impossible a hundred years ago, that we have available today. And in my lifetime I've seem such dramatic changes in what is possible, that I doubt very little to be impossible.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> No free will when the holy spirit gets shore leave.



I've said it before and I'll say it again. Not everyone in the OT had free will all the time....take Jonah for example. If God has prechosen you to do something, you have no free will at the chosen time.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> And how does George Lucas tell you how to lead your life?
> 
> I must just be more open minded than some of y'all. I was never interested in Star Wars, but I am familiar with it and I'm not a naysayer that all those things are impossible.  If you believe in the supernatural, you are much more open to possibilities of almost any kind and that sure does make life interesting to me. There are many things that appeared to be impossible a hundred years ago, that we have available today. And in my lifetime I've seem such dramatic changes in what is possible, that I doubt very little to be impossible.



WHAT!!!!!! Are you serious?
Please read up here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Force_(Star_Wars)

I can't prove it exists, but then again...no one can prove it doesn't!


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 12, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> We had a long thread on this a while back. Good thing God created those scientist.



If he created the scientist that developed prosthetic limbs, he also created the bombmakers.  What a sick, demented deity in that case. Or is it always chalked up to free will when people do bad things?


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## Asath (Feb 12, 2012)

The problem is largely as bullethead describes it – there actually are not any contemporaneous accounts of any of the ‘events’ described in the NT, and the best anyone can reconstruct was written several generations later – This is akin to you writing a factual account of the life of your great-grandfather, complete with an eyewitness account of his words and deeds.  It strains credibility.

Further, we have the problem that the ‘Gospels’ of Matthew Mark Luke and John contain a number of inconsistencies, and each fail to contain the name of the actual author – it wasn’t until about the second century that anyone got around to putting these four accounts next to each other, and then attributing authorship.  This is akin to taking your already strained account of the life of your great-grandfather, setting it aside for ten more generations, and then believing that a perfect stranger, a few hundred years later might pick up THAT writing and say – ‘Hey!  This must have been written by JBO704!”

C’mon now.  Belief in the unknown and unknowable is one thing, but asking anyone to accept that the unknown and unknowable can then be precisely described and defined in definite terms, but only by the believers, and only because of anonymous writings that were assembled, rewritten, and then attributed as to authentic ‘authorship’ a few hundred years later is rather asking a LOT.  Each faction ‘believes’ that they, alone, are in sole possession of the ‘Truth’ and can produce a Book of their own authorship to prove it?  Honestly?  The world is filled with writers, and we don’t bother accepting everything they wrote as fact.  That would be silly.

Add to this the fact that, even among the Bible translators, assemblers, and interpreters there exist dozens of different versions of this book alone, contributing to a world where we witness to this day self-described ‘Christians’ opposing and actively killing OTHER self-described ‘Christians;’ and toss into the mix the dozens and dozens of other ‘Holy’ books that the other, competing religions put forward as the one ‘Truth,’ and you might begin to understand why some of us have a problem with all of this . . . 

‘Belief’ is an excuse, meant to justify oneself after the fact.  If it were true, it would be verifiable, like, say, gravity, and would fall into the realm of fact.  It doesn’t.  

That, by itself, might be a clue.  When ‘belief’ systems can compete, internally and externally, complete with terrorism and murders in the name of their various dogmas, sensible folks part company.


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## stringmusic (Feb 12, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If he created the scientist that developed prosthetic limbs, he also created the bombmakers.  What a sick, demented deity in that case. Or is it always chalked up to free will when people do bad things?



It's "chalked up" to free will either way. The scientist who "created" or invented the prosthetic limbs were not forced to do so.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 12, 2012)

Asath said:


> ... there actually are not any contemporaneous accounts of any of the ‘events’ described in the NT...



... and if there were, you still wouldn't believe.  You'd just move on to another issue, like this:




Asath said:


> Further, we have the problem that the ‘Gospels’ of Matthew Mark Luke and John contain a number of inconsistencies, and each fail to contain the name of the actual author –



... and if those inconsistencies were explained, you'd move on to something else.  It's just like in _Life of Brian_:  "There's no pleasing some people."


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## mtnwoman (Feb 12, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> If he created the scientist that developed prosthetic limbs, he also created the bombmakers.  What a sick, demented deity in that case. Or is it always chalked up to free will when people do bad things?



God created everyone. He did not create them to do anything else but to love each other, ie the New Testament states.
God creates people to be good, but satan tempts them to do otherwise....ie child molesters, rapists, murderers, bank robbers, etc etc. That should at least show you there is an evil force and a good force, if nothing else. But I know it won't. But I believe it and I believe God is only good.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 12, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> ... and if there were, you still wouldn't believe.  You'd just move on to another issue, like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No one can disprove anything in the bible, same as no one can disprove evolution.  I have never had the need, desire, or notion to disprove evolution....I simply believe anything is possible.


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 12, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> It's "chalked up" to free will either way. The scientist who "created" or invented the prosthetic limbs were not forced to do so.



By that rationale, God's creation of said prosthetic limb developer is irrelevant.  Why would you be thanking him instead of giving credit to where it's due...with the inventor?


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## stringmusic (Feb 13, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> By that rationale, God's creation of said prosthetic limb developer is irrelevant.


Simple logic tells me that without God in the picture, the prosthetic limb developer would not be a developer at all.




> Why would you be thanking him instead of giving credit to where it's due...with the inventor?



Oh, don't get me wrong, I am very thankful for people who do great things in this world, I just like to thank the source of where those people come from also.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Feb 13, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong, I am very thankful for people who do great things in this world, *I just like to thank the source of where those people come from also*.



Let me complete the circle by again pointing out that this would be the same source as where the bombmakers originate.


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## stringmusic (Feb 13, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Let me complete the circle by again pointing out that this would be the same source as where the bombmakers originate.



True, but they were not created as bombmakers, they were created a humans, by God. They chose to be bombmakers and blow limbs off people. God also created other humans that make prosthetic limbs for those people in bombings.

Booooo evil..... yea! good.


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## JB0704 (Feb 13, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Booooo evil..... yea! good.



Some folks disagree....


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## Six million dollar ham (Feb 13, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> True, but they were not created as bombmakers, they were created a humans, by God. They chose to be bombmakers and blow limbs off people. God also created other humans that make prosthetic limbs for those people in bombings.
> 
> Booooo evil..... yea! good.



Lap 2:  

Did the prosthetic limb developers choose to develop these things or was that God's plan to create these people to do this?  Also, why is he powerless to stop successful bombmakers?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 13, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Lap 2:
> 
> Did the prosthetic limb developers choose to develop these things or was that God's plan to create these people to do this?
> Also, why is he powerless to stop successful bombmakers?



I know you didn't ask me, but I think the desire to create prosthetic limbs comes from seeing a need and meeting it for whatever reason (humanitarian, financial, etc).  The need comes from people who do not have functioning limbs.  This condition exists because we live an unscripted life (free will).

Does the fact that bombmakers occasionally succeed necessarily imply that God is powerless to stop them?  Or, does it imply that he wants us to be free, and freedom comes with choices.  If God stopped all the evil, then we wouldn't be free.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I know you didn't ask me, but I think the desire to create prosthetic limbs comes from seeing a need and meeting it for whatever reason (humanitarian, financial, etc).  The need comes from people who do not have functioning limbs.  This condition exists because we live an unscripted life (free will).
> 
> Does the fact that bombmakers occasionally succeed necessarily imply that God is powerless to stop them?  Or, does it imply that he wants us to be free, and freedom comes with choices.  If God stopped all the evil, then we wouldn't be free.



I get that.  But you can't say that He's all good then.  I'm glad that He doesn't exist because I like the good and bad in the world.  Would I prefer Heaven or Paradise? Only if I had something to compare it to otherwise it would be just like every other day.  I always hear believers (not you, Oddball) talk about how all the pain and suffering will be gone and forgotten.  Then why do you care.  What would be the point of a mansion if you don't remember the cardboard box you used to live in on Earth?  

It's pipe dreams.  I have pains and I wish I could live without them but dreaming of the Neverland hereafter only makes things down here worse.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Feb 13, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I know you didn't ask me,



Quite alright sir.  I'm always interested in the opinions of forum members that don't include "Because Jesus is lord!! It was free will and satan!! We have faith!! Faith!!"




JB0704 said:


> but I think the desire to create prosthetic limbs comes from seeing a need and meeting it for whatever reason (humanitarian, financial, etc).  The need comes from people who do not have functioning limbs.  This condition exists because we live an unscripted life (free will).
> 
> Does the fact that bombmakers occasionally succeed necessarily imply that God is powerless to stop them?  Or, does it imply that he wants us to be free, and freedom comes with choices.  If God stopped all the evil, then we wouldn't be free.



So basically God's not involved in the bombmaker/amputee/prosthetic limb process then?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 13, 2012)

I believe sorta like Mtnwoman, for the most part we have free will. But I also believe God can intervene in certain situations whenever he wants to. He could do this to guide you or others. I don't believe in predestination, he does these interventions as needed when the situation arises. I don't think he is a micro-manager so he doesn't intervene too often.


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## Asath (Feb 13, 2012)

“I don't believe in predestination, he does these interventions as needed when the situation arises.”

Like, perhaps when the Preacher does a laying on of hands, because he needs to pay for his Cadillac by demonstrating an intervention and filling up the collection basket.  

Not, on the other hand, when a tsunami or a hurricane or a tornado or a massive flood wipes out a few hundred of His children . . . 

Seems like this cosmic fella y’all go on about has an odd set of priorities.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> True, but they were not created as bombmakers, they were created a humans, by God. They chose to be bombmakers and blow limbs off people. God also created other humans that make prosthetic limbs for those people in bombings.
> 
> Booooo evil..... yea! good.



Agreed.
satan tempts people to do evil...ie bombmakers, suicide bombers, etc etc...once again proves there is an evil spirit in the world. Some people have no morals.



Why is it only the negative things that God created?
He created the ocean and all the fish in there for y'all to fish. He also created food/target practice in the form of a deer, groundhogs, squirrells, rabbits. He created the beautiful mountains and the wonderful woods and I know most of y'all enjoy the woods whether you're huntin' deer or looking for firewood. My first husband was killed on a hunting/camping trip, was that God's fault, no that was alcohols fault. But he enjoyed all of God's creations. And as much as y'all are outside I cannot believe that the only things that people believe God created were the bombmakers....wow...


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2012)

Asath said:


> “I don't believe in predestination, he does these interventions as needed when the situation arises.”
> 
> Like, perhaps when the Preacher does a laying on of hands, because he needs to pay for his Cadillac by demonstrating an intervention and filling up the collection basket.
> 
> ...



Is it the preacher or God who elects the preacher to pay for his cadillac out of the offering plate?

You think if God exists that He should take care of tsunamis, hurricanes, torandos, etc....but since you don't believe in God, do you step up to the plate and take care of those people? Just curious.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Lap 2:
> 
> Did the prosthetic limb developers choose to develop these things or was that God's plan to create these people to do this?  Also, why is he powerless to stop successful bombmakers?



Since you don't believe God exists, why don't you do the things you think He 'should' do. Do you do anything to stop the bombmakers? been to war? ever helped a disabled person? You aren't powerless are you? You should be doing the things that you think someone who doesn't exist should do. If you don't who's going to?


----------



## Asath (Feb 14, 2012)

Perhaps there is something worse than this, but it is difficult to top – -

 “ . . . satan tempts people to do evil...ie bombmakers, suicide bombers, etc etc...once again proves there is an evil spirit in the world. Some people have no morals.”

Um?  Nothing personal, but SATAN exists entirely as a construct of believers in God.  Once you invented God, and defined him as the idealization of yourselves, who can only be good, it was necessary to invent something for this God to fight against, and this other wholly invented being you named Satan.  

Not coincidentally, this named evil is also yourselves.  

Now, how is it that, in a world constructed by the ‘Good Force,’ which you call God, and aspire to and identify with, creating and inspiring the ‘Good’ you, there can also exist the ‘Evil force,’ which you call Satan and also identify with, creating and inspiring the ‘Evil’ you, who are only human after all, and sometimes succumb to the seductive temptations of all that you outwardly revile?  

If all you have in answer is, once again, that this ‘God of All Good’ gave us the ‘free-will’ to choose evil if we wished, then your ‘free-will’ is of no value as an excuse to choose either ‘Good’ or ‘Evil.’  If you can be tempted by the ‘evil’ you perceive, and sometimes choose that, then ask forgiveness, you have been duped, and have no such free-will.  If your excuse is that you are weak, and can succumb to this Devil you propose, then you cannot be strong, in the same breath, and claim righteousness.  It is one or the other, not both.  Perhaps your created ideas of a creator, and this stark battle between opposite forces failed to mention that these are not the only two choices.    

Sounds to us like the biggest cop-out ever – “I’m Saved, because I believe in the Good Being, and He enlightens my every step and Guides me along the Path of True Righteousness – Except when I don’t, in which case it isn’t my fault, it’s all the fault of that pesky Devil, tempting me to do wrong, and I’m too weak to resist . . . “

I’m sorry that religions seem to create folks who can talk out of both sides of their mouths, and justify a split-personality, neither side of which is apparently under their own control . . . But, really?  

‘The Devil Made Me Do It?’  

Classic.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 14, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Lap 2:
> 
> Did the prosthetic limb developers choose to develop these things or was that God's plan to create these people to do this?


If I had to guess, I would say that God created the human, and the human chose to make prosthetic limbs. 



> Also, why is he powerless to stop successful bombmakers?


He's not.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

Six million dollar ham said:


> So basically God's not involved in the bombmaker/amputee/prosthetic limb process then?



Here is the only answer I can say with 100% certainty: I don't know.

But, if I had to guess, I would say no.  I believe we are free, and freedom comes with a choice, and those choices affect us and those around us.  I see the world more as a wheel put in motion, rather than a carefully orchestrated play....if that makes any sense.


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## bullethead (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Here is the only answer I can say with 100% certainty: I don't know.
> 
> But, if I had to guess, I would say no.  I believe we are free, and freedom comes with a choice, and those choices affect us and those around us.  I see the world more as a wheel put in motion, rather than a carefully orchestrated play....if that makes any sense.



It has got to be an individual belief with no certain answer. There are people that think like Six, people that think like you, and people that think that after a suicide bomber(or natural disaster,plane crash, car wreck..etc) detonates himself and kills 37 people in a cafe they are thanking God for the two survivors saying that God stepped in mid blast and chose those two to live. Losing 37 is what it is but give credit for saving two. It really is a twisted way of thinking.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

Asath said:


> ‘The Devil Made Me Do It?’



I enjoyed your post, and honestly, you are a bit more intellectual than I am.  But, one of the major aspects of Christianity is personal responsibility.  In that sense "the devil made me do it," is never an excuse.  We are all accountable for our own actions.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> It has got to be an individual belief with no certain answer. There are people that think like Six, people that think like you, and people that think that after a suicide bomber(or natural disaster,plane crash, car wreck..etc) detonates himself and kills 37 people in a cafe they are thanking God for the two survivors saying that God stepped in mid blast and chose those two to live. Losing 37 is what it is but give credit for saving two. It really is a twisted way of thinking.



I wrestle with this myself, Bullet.  I will give an example:

I am terrified of flying.  I was on a real bad flight on a business trip several years ago and swore I would never set foot on another one, and I haven't.  My wife loves flying, and does so for her job regularly.  She just "trusts" that God will land the plane safely, and that gives her peace, and I admire that in her.  I always say "lot's of Christians died on 9/11."  Who is right?  I dunno.......


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## bullethead (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I wrestle with this myself, Bullet.  I will give an example:
> 
> I am terrified of flying.  I was on a real bad flight on a business trip several years ago and swore I would never set foot on another one, and I haven't.  My wife loves flying, and does so for her job regularly.  She just "trusts" that God will land the plane safely, and that gives her peace, and I admire that in her.  I always say "lot's of Christians died on 9/11."  Who is right?  I dunno.......



I can see your wife's line of thought...it is out of her hands. She is comforted by the thought that God is with her. Totally understandable.

It is when something DOES happen though. A Plane goes down 249 people are dead and 7 live. The survivors families tout it as a miracle saying God was with them.
I say, well why just with them? What about the other 249? A miracle would be that plane smacking the mountain side at 400mph and while not a piece of the aircraft is left undamaged every person on board walks away without a scratch. THAT is a miracle but it doesn't happen. It is not the same as landing with no landing gear and everyone walks away shaken but safe.


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## bullethead (Feb 14, 2012)

And it happens with every natural disaster too. 1100 people are swept out to sea in a Tsunami and there is the one survivor being interviewed on TV thanking God for stepping in. I'd think there are about 1100 more that would like to be interviewed too.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

bullethead said:


> And it happens with every natural disaster too. 1100 people are swept out to sea in a Tsunami and there is the one survivor being interviewed on TV thanking God for stepping in. I'd think there are about 1100 more that would like to be interviewed too.



I was in a church class once, and the teacher had a small, intricatley designed stained glass window.  The example was our lives are boken glass, but God wants our lives to be the beautiful window.  Several folks in the room were happy to hear it....I raised my hand and asked "but what if you get hit by a bus."  Needless to say, nobody had a good answer then either.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2012)

I am convinced that belief is a coping mechanism.  The idea that the Universe is a vast, random, uncaring place strikes fear into many people.   To others, like myself, that notion brings me comfort for the alternative is that "someone" is at the helm, or at least is responsible for "putting the wheel in motion".  I despise that guy and I refuse to believe that He exists (besides all the evidence that he does not).


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> or at least is responsible for "putting the wheel in motion".  I despise that guy and I refuse to believe that He exists (besides all the evidence that he does not).



Just something to think on:  you despise the guy who put the wheel in motion, but if he exists, then he is the reason you exist.  Would you prefer otherwise?  

Whether or not I believed in God, I would be thankful to have experienced life....by random selection or design.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Just something to think on:  you despise the guy who put the wheel in motion, but if he exists, then he is the reason you exist.  Would you prefer otherwise?
> 
> Whether or not I believed in God, I would be thankful to have experienced life....by random selection or design.




I should clarify:  I despise the common notions of "The Guy".  I can conceptualize a God that doesn't offend my sensibilities.

If I didn't exist, how would I know or care?


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I should clarify:  I despise the common notions of "The Guy".  I can conceptualize a God that doesn't offend my sensibilities.



Cool. 



ambush80 said:


> If I didn't exist, how would I know or care?



You wouldn't.  But I guess that is the point, even at my lowest points (and there have been some very low points in my life), I was glad to have experienced life.....kind of like the old Garth Brooks song "The Dance," I guess.


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## Oak-flat Hunter (Feb 14, 2012)

There must be an evil side of God if He created Satan .because He knew what Satan would become when He created Him...


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Cool.



Haven't found any reason to believe that it exists, though.



JB0704 said:


> You wouldn't.  But I guess that is the point, even at my lowest points (and there have been some very low points in my life), I was glad to have experienced life.....kind of like the old Garth Brooks song "The Dance," I guess.



Me too.  I don't think I can do that to the fullest thinking about some "Wonderland" afterlife or worrying about some "Dungeon of Eternal Torment" that doesn't exist.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> Haven't found any reason to believe that it exists, though..



I hear ya'



ambush80 said:


> Me too.  I don't think I can do that to the fullest thinking about some "Wonderland" afterlife or worrying about some "Dungeon of Eternal Torment" that doesn't exist.



Maybe so. We each find value in our own system.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2012)

laskerknight said:


> There must be an evil side of God if He created Satan .because He knew what Satan would become when He created Him...



If God exists, I think that this might be closer to the truth.  The notion of the dual or even multifaceted nature of things seems to reflect what I have observed: opposing forces resulting in some kind of equilibrium.


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## JB0704 (Feb 14, 2012)

.....or he gave freedom to all of his creation, and some used it for the good, and some did not.


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## ambush80 (Feb 14, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> .....or he gave freedom to all of his creation, and some used it for the good, and some did not.



He's a bad dad and a bad Devil owner.


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