# Part V: A bit more on punishment and immorality



## Asath (Apr 9, 2012)

Heresy has always been one of those ‘soft’ concepts that is in the eye of the beholder – if I believe one thing, and you believe another, each of us may fairly accuse the other of ‘heresy’ against our belief.  Thoughtful folks tend to call this sort of thing ‘disagreement,’ and after a bit of lively and inconclusive debate they go their merry ways.  Religions, on the other hand, tend to lack that sort of maturity.

The Christian Church was quick to find that their Good Book was generous and thoughtful enough to suggest a number of ways to eradicate heretics, from stoning to cremation while alive.  Keep in mind here that up until the sixteenth century there were no Bibles written in common, vernacular language, and in medieval times it was a capital offense throughout Europe for anyone to possess a vernacular translation of the Bible --  The WORD was entirely in the hands of the clergy, and there was no possible way for the common man to refute their edicts, since he wasn’t allowed to read that Word himself.  

So, in that context, let us actually talk about the inquisitions and witch hunts and inhuman tortures – modern believers wish to sweep these things under the rug as just a misguided bit of ancient history, but I might suggest that the intolerance remains, as well as the literal Words – and shying away from them or distancing ‘modern’ thought from ‘ancient’ thought, in a religious context, cannot rationally be done while still ‘Believing.’

 Deuteronomy is a horror show, explicitly telling people to murder anyone in their midst, even members of their own families, if they show any sympathy for another God, or even if they are not thorough enough in their belief.  The totalitarian genius of this work is so complete that it even demands that if anyone is too squeamish or moral to refuse to kill their neighbors then THEY must also be killed (Deut. 17: 12-13).  

If anyone imagines that there is no actual justification for the inquisitions in the scriptures they need only consult Deuteronomy 13: 12-16:  If ANYBODY is found to be preaching a contrary god, then the WHOLE TOWN is to be killed, and everything in it is to be burned.  (Obviously, in their pious zeal, the ‘inquisitors’ overlooked that burning of the loot part.)  

And for anyone who thinks that Jesus was against that sort of thing, be reminded that  according to the Book, Jesus told everybody to obey the Old Testament Law:

“Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one title shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled” (Matthew 5:17,18).

So forget about the part where one part of the Book is then separated from the other.  In fact, Jesus seems to have suggested further refinements to the habit of killing heretics and non-believers: “If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:6)  Clearly not everyone wished to be generous enough to interpret that metaphorically.

As Will Durant observed, “ . . . tolerance grows only when faith loses certainty; certainty is murderous.”  Now, the simple words written in the Book haven’t changed, much, in the last five hundred years, but much of the brutal and literal practice of them has been eradicated.  Is this because societal morality has finally outstripped Biblical morality, and has prevailed?  Or has faith in the Bible as the literal word of God weakened to the point that even the ‘believers’ take it with a grain of salt, and realize that much of what is written is patently immoral, which would be an admission of the erosion of faith?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 9, 2012)

I thought you were gonna get away from the "parts".  Oh, well.  At least you gave this one a more detailed title.




Asath said:


> ... In fact, Jesus seems to have suggested further refinements to the habit of killing heretics and non-believers ...



News to me.

Did Jesus kill anybody?  Did He tell His disciples to kill anybody?  Did He tell them to burn anybody alive?  Did Peter, Paul or any of the apostles tell anybody to kill anyone or to burn anyone alive?


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

Charles Manson didn't kill anybody either but he is being held accountable for ordering others to kill for him.
I am sure you know your verses.....
Revelation 2:18-23


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Charles Manson didn't kill anybody either but he is being held accountable for ordering others to kill for him.
> I am sure you know your verses.....
> Revelation 2:18-23



Jesus didn't order anybody to kill for Him, in those verses or any others.


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## Four (Apr 10, 2012)

Isn't Jesus and god the same person in this story? Unless your apart of the few groups that doesn't believe in the trinity (JW's etc)

How can you separate the actions of god and Jesus and still believe in the trinity?


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## Four (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Jesus didn't order anybody to kill for Him, in those verses or any others.



Wat.

"These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire"



			
				Jesus said:
			
		

> I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

Four said:


> How can you separate the actions of god and Jesus and still believe in the trinity?



They are separate Persons in the Godhead.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

Four said:


> "These things says the Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire"
> 
> I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works.



_And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them. 

But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. 

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein. 

And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them._

-- Mark 10:13-15


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## Four (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> _And they brought young children to him, that he should touch them: and his disciples rebuked those that brought them.
> 
> But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
> 
> ...



What does this have to do with the conversation? Let alone what you replied to.


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## gemcgrew (Apr 10, 2012)

Four said:


> Isn't Jesus and god the same person in this story? Unless your apart of the few groups that doesn't believe in the trinity (JW's etc)


Yes, and some will say "God is in control" except when it pertains to this or that. "Jesus rules all" except in matters of this or that.


Four said:


> How can you separate the actions of god and Jesus and still believe in the trinity?


I can't.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

Four said:


> What does this have to do with the conversation? Let alone what you replied to.



You quoted "Jesus" as saying this:


_I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. _


... and I showed a passage of Jesus actually interacting with children.


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## Four (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You quoted "Jesus" as saying this:
> 
> 
> _I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. _
> ...



So either we have a contradiction in the bible, or by children we're referring to decedents, not young people? I've heard that defense used by Christians when confronted by the verse that says to stone a child for speaking against his parents... they say "well child doesnt mean young, the child of person X could still be an adult" or some such..

I think it more likely its  a contradiction


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I thought you were gonna get away from the "parts".  Oh, well.  At least you gave this one a more detailed title.
> 
> Did Jesus kill anybody?



Did Jesus commit suicide?


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## JB0704 (Apr 10, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did Jesus commit suicide?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2012)

John 10:18
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

It would just be a different way of looking at the question of Jesus killing someone. He didn't commit suicide as he made a sacrifice which is different than a suicide.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You quoted "Jesus" as saying this:
> 
> 
> _I will kill her children with death, and all the churches shall know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts. And I will give to each one of you according to your works. _
> ...



So does one cancel the other out? Isn't Jesus supposed to come back and kill all the "bad" people?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> So does one cancel the other out? Isn't Jesus supposed to come back and kill all the "bad" people?



Nope.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope.



In Revelations, WHO is supposed to come back and lead the killing?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> In Revelations, WHO is supposed to come back and lead the killing?



Nobody.  Christ will return to judge the living and the dead.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Nobody.  Christ will return to judge the living and the dead.



Sorry but you can't sugar coat it Centerpin.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Sorry but you can't sugar coat it Centerpin.



So, who is Jesus gonna kill?  Will he start with the mentally ill?  How about pre-schoolers?  Will He "pop a cap" in them , behead them or burn them?


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> So, who is Jesus gonna kill?  Will he start with the mentally ill?  How about pre-schoolers?  Will He "pop a cap" in them , behead them or burn them?



It does not matter who Jesus is gonna kill. It is a simple yes or no. Does Jesus kill in the Book of Revelation? 
You are trying to justify the killings after stating that Jesus doesn't kill or order anyone to be killed. You can convince yourself of whatever you want. You can say it over and over but it will not make it true. Read your own Bible and you will find out what is really in there and not just what you want to be in there.

http://www.discoverrevelation.com/Rev_19.html


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> It does not matter who Jesus is gonna kill. It is a simple yes or no. Does Jesus kill in the Book of Revelation?
> 
> http://www.discoverrevelation.com/Rev_19.html


The answer is no...He gives life!


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## Michael F. Gray (Apr 10, 2012)

I will admit your point contains limited validity. Men get in trouble when they deviate from the doctrine of Christ and do what "they think is right." In the early days of our own nation in New Durham, New Hampshire a young preacher by the name of Benjamin Randall rented a meeting hall to preach the gospel. He was greeted by "clergy" whose beliefs differed slightly from his. These "clergymen" threw bricks, and felt justified. But Jesus made it clear in Matthew 5:44 ; Christians are commanded to love even those that hate us, and despitefully use us. We must wholy lean on the TRUTH of GOD's WORD, and not on what we think is "right". The scripture also says "let him take heed that thinks he standeth, lest he fall." I accepted years ago everyone will not choose the same Church as I. Our freedom allows us to worship the Lord as we choose with little restraint. That freedom requires we permit others to do likewise, or it is destined to certain failure. I may differ from you on a point of dogma or doctrine. I support your right to worship in Spirit and in Truth as you belive you should in the eyes of the Almighty. Ultimately it is he to whom we shall all give account. Does not the WORD teach a man should "work out his salvation with fear and trembling." ?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> It does not matter who Jesus is gonna kill. It is a simple yes or no. Does Jesus kill in the Book of Revelation?
> You are trying to justify the killings after stating that Jesus doesn't kill or order anyone to be killed. You can convince yourself of whatever you want. You can say it over and over but it will not make it true. Read your own Bible and you will find out what is really in there and not just what you want to be in there.
> 
> http://www.discoverrevelation.com/Rev_19.html




You and Asath are talking about two different things.  Asath began by theorizing that "Jesus seems to have suggested further refinements to the habit of killing heretics and non-believers".  He's actually discussing history.  I responded to him by saying that Jesus did not kill anyone and did not tell his disciples to kill anyone.

You, OTOH, are discussing the future judgement seat of Christ.  If you want to equate the two, that's fine, but I think they're completely different.  There's no "sugar coating" to it.  Also, I'm more than a little bit surprised to hear that you believe every word in Revelation is to be taken literally.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The answer is no...He gives life!



Now, back to reality....


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> The answer is no...He gives life!



Exactly.  Satan is man's enemy, not God.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> You and Asath are talking about two different things.  Asath began by theorizing that "Jesus seems to have suggested further refinements to the habit of killing heretics and non-believers".  He's actually discussing history.  I responded to him by saying that Jesus did not kill anyone and did not tell his disciples to kill anyone.
> 
> You, OTOH, are discussing the future judgement seat of Christ.  If you want to equate the two, that's fine, but I think they're completely different.  There's no "sugar coating" to it.  Also, I'm more than a little bit surprised to hear that you believe every word in Revelation is to be taken literally.



I am just using the Bible to get answers. I never said I think it is literal, nor do i believe it, but it is the only source believers use so I have to use it also. But it always boils down to the believers not acknowledging, misinterpreting, refusing to accept, or changing the meaning of what is written in their very own book...to suit themselves. The WORD, literal, parables, God's  precise and EXACT meaning passed on through men, or well....men wrote it so it is screwed up...
Excuses excuses excuses.
Do you believe what is written in Revelation to be true? Is it going to happen that way? Who is doing the killing?

Bottom line is that Jesus is God, God is Jesus. Jesus states multiples times that OT law MUST be obeyed. He recites God's commands to be followed and many of them are about death and killing. Matthew 15:1-9 for ONE example.

When it suits Jesus IS God....when it does not suit, Jesus is separate from God. Hard to play by the rules when the other side changes the rules to suit.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Exactly.  Satan is man's enemy, not God.



Isaiah 45:7

King James Version (KJV)

 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Isaiah 45:7
> 
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 7. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.




1 John 4:8:

_He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. _


John 3:16:

_For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. _


Do you really want to play "dueling Bible verses"?

I'll try to address your previous post later.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> 1 John 4:8:
> 
> _He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. _
> 
> ...



No actually I don't. But I should....
1. Because they don't "cancel" each other out.
2. It shows just how contradictory the Bible is.
3. I am not making claims that God does not love the world.
4. I am using your book exclusively to show you the things that you say are not in your book.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> ... But it always boils down to the believers not acknowledging, misinterpreting, refusing to accept, or changing the meaning of what is written in their very own book...to suit themselves.



I could say the same thing about the skeptics on this board.




bullethead said:


> Do you believe what is written in Revelation to be true? Is it going to happen that way? Who is doing the killing?



Yes, I think it's true:  Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead.  I also think that John uses figurative language to convey that message.  




bullethead said:


> Jesus states multiples times that OT law MUST be obeyed. He recites God's commands to be followed and many of them are about death and killing.



... yet He never killed anyone in His three year public ministry and never told any of His followers to kill anybody.  How do you reconcile that?




bullethead said:


> When it suits Jesus IS God....when it does not suit, Jesus is separate from God. Hard to play by the rules when the other side changes the rules to suit.



I'm not changing anything.  God the Father is God.  God the Son is God.  (God the Holy Spirit is God, too.)  The Father was not born of a virgin and did not have a three year public ministry culminating in His death, burial and resurrection.  That was the Son.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I could say the same thing about the skeptics on this board.



They don't have a book






centerpin fan said:


> Yes, I think it's true:  Jesus will return to judge the living and the dead.  I also think that John uses figurative language to convey that message.



I did not ask you if Jesus was coming back to judge the dead. What verses in the book are figurative and which one are literal? Readers Choice?






centerpin fan said:


> ... yet He never killed anyone in His three year public ministry and never told any of His followers to kill anybody.  How do you reconcile that


3 years compared to 6000 is nothing.






centerpin fan said:


> I'm not changing anything.  God the Father is God.  God the Son is God.  (God the Holy Spirit is God, too.)  The Father was not born of a virgin and did not have a three year public ministry culminating in His death, burial and resurrection.  That was the Son.



One in the same, until they need to be separated to make one look better than the other two.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2012)

Ephesians 4:18
Having the UNDERSTANDING darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2012)

Im borrowing this from a brother, but it is much needed here as you argue what will happen....you dont comprehend it has happened..

The whole Bible is Christ's love letter to His Bride [New Jerusalem].



In fact, God is the author of the monogamous marriage [one man for one female wife] (Genesis 2:18-25; Matthew 19:4-6).



In marriage, a husband and his wife become "one flesh." Marital "oneness" [union] means to be always "yoked together" in indissoluble intimacy, joy, and integrity:




"Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband."

(Ephesians 5:33)



Once a marriage has been made, let not man put it asunder. And the fact of the matter is this: marriage is a covenant that is witnessed by God (Malachi 2:14); moreover, there are certain obligations within this marriage relationship (1 Corinthians 7:3-5; Ephesians 5:22ff).



So, marriage should be a constant reminder of God's love for us and of Christ's love for His Wife.



MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB



The marriage of Christ the Lamb occurred after that period when Old Covenant-Jerusalem [The Great - wh... was destroyed in the first century (Revelation 19:2-3). Before the actual marriage, there was the sound of rejoicing in heaven because God's righteous judgment upon that Great ..ore --Jerusalem was fulfilled. Furthermore, the Lord God omnipotent reigns (Revelation 19:6)! Hence, an exhortation was declared to give more glory to God for the special event that followed:




"Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."

(Revelation 19:7)



"The marriage of the Lamb is come" 

– This parabolic picture occurred when the "chaste virgin" Church was presented as a gift from the Father to the Son (Matthew 22:2). The New Covenant-New Jerusalem Bride was espoused to the Lord Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 11:2).




"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

(Revelation 21:2)



Biblically, the Jewish betrothal [marriage engagement] begins with the Father selecting a wife for His Son (Genesis 24:3; 38:6) and sometimes proposals were instigated by the father of the "chaste virgin" (Exodus 2:21). The "engaged" man must give either a nuptial present [dowry] or services to the father of the "chaste virgin" (Genesis 29:18, 34:12; Exodus 22:17; 1 Samuel 18:25).



Christ paid the dowry with His services and with His precious blood (1 Peter 1:18-19).




"For ye [the Church] are bought with a price: therefore glorify God [Christ] in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's [Christ's]."

(1 Corinthians 6:20)



"Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband."

(1 Corinthians 7:3)



When the proposals and dowry are accepted, the Bridegroom could come at once and take away His "chaste Bride" to Himself (Genesis 24:63-67). The betrothal is already regarded as marriage, so any unfaithfulness during this period can be considered as an offence that could result in divorce.  



Therefore, the preparation and adornment of the wife takes place after the price has been paid.



"And His wife hath made herself ready"

– Christ's glorious Church was ready when she became sanctified and cleansed by "the washing of water by the word" and "righteousness" was granted to her; (Ephesians 5:26-27; Revelation 19:8).



"Christian baptism" was a "transition rite" symbolizing the washing of the Bride before she was "arrayed [clothed, dressed] in fine linen, clean and white" (Revelation 19:8). Notice that the "fine linen" was granted by Christ the Bridegroom and the Bride arrayed herself in it.



In both Old and New Covenants, Jerusalem is often addressed as the Bride of the Lord (Isaiah 62:5-7; Revelation 21:2).



The expectation of the Bride in regard to the marriage is "The Lord is at hand" (Philippians 4:5). For her longing to be taken into the Lord's presence must be fulfilled.



"Great Mystery"



Christ invites his beloved Bride to arise from longing and suspense, and to leave the cares and distresses of the world (1 Corinthians 7:26-28), for a sweet and "everlasting" union with him.




"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church."

(Ephesians 5:31 -32)



This great mystery, the union of Christ and His Church [New Covenant-New Jerusalem], was declared as consummated when Christ as the husband "loved the church [wife], and gave himself for it" (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:25). Christ the Husband and His Church [wife] became "one flesh."




"The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."

(1 Corinthians 7:4)



"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine."

(Song of Solomon 1:2)



"His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me."

(Song of Solomon 2:6)



"My beloved is mine, and I am his..."

(Song of Solomon 2:16)



For Christ and His Wife, this intimate "oneness" means a "coming" [presence], a "sounding" [voices, trump], a "rising" [be caught up, come away], and a "meeting" [see each countenance] together "in the air" [secrecy, the secret places, clouds] forever [and so shall we ever be].
â– "coming" [presence]


"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven..."

(1 Thessalonians 4:16)



"...behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills."

(Song of Solomon 2:8)
â– "sounding" [voices, trump]


"...with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God..."

(1 Thessalonians 4:16)



"The voice of my beloved!..."

(Song of Solomon 2:8)



"...the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;"

(Song of Solomon 2:12)
â– "rising" [be caught up, come away]


"...and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them..."

(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)



"...Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away."

(Song of Solomon 2:13)
â– "meeting" [see thy countenance]


"...to meet the Lord..."

(1 Thessalonians 4:17)



"...let me see thy countenance...and thy countenance is comely."

(Song of Solomon 2:14)



"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."

(1 Corinthians 13:12)



"...but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

(1 John 3:2)



"And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads."

(Revelation 22:4)
â– in the air [secrecy, the secret places, clouds]


"... in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air..."

(1 Thessalonians 4:17)



"O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs..."

(Song of Solomon 2:14)



"And he rode upon a cherub, and did fly: yea, he did fly upon the wings of the wind.

He made darkness his secret place; his pavilion round about him were dark waters and thick clouds of the skies."

(Psalms 18:10-11)
â– forever [and so shall we ever be]


"...and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

(1 Thessalonians 4:17)



"My beloved is mine, and I am his... Until the day* break [vanish away]..."

(Song of Solomon 2:17)



*day [Hebrew "yowm" = age, always, continually, daily, forever lasting]



A true betrothal, though a moment, lasts throughout eternity.



MARRIAGE SUPPER



Generally, the Jewish marriage must be celebrated by a feast in the house of the bridegroom's father or that of the bride's, to which all friends were invited (Genesis 29:22).




"He brought me to the banqueting house, and his banner over me was love."

(Song of Solomon 2:4)



The parable of Christ in Matthew 22 shows this Jewish betrothal with guests being invited to dinner:




Matthew 22



 1.  And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

 2.  The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

 3.  And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

 4.  Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

 5.  But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

 6.  And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

 7.  But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

 8.  Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

 9.  Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

 10.  So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.



"And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God."

(Revelation 19:9)



Matthew 22:1-10 and Revelation 19:9 show hints that those who were invited [Jews and Gentiles] to the "marriage supper" were the ones called by the Gospel into the Kingdom of God.




"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

(Revelation 22:17)



Saints under the Old Covenant are obviously participants in this marriage feast: "Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God" (Luke 13:28).



However, those Jews who rejected the King's invitation were not worthy, so the wrath of God came upon them to the uttermost (1 Thessalonians 2:14-16). The Roman armies invaded Jerusalem, destroyed those apostate Jews, and burned up their city (Matthew 22:7). Clearly, the Kingdom of God was taken from them (Matthew 21:43) and given to the Gentiles (Acts 11:18; 14:27; 28:28; Romans 11:11). Those children of the kingdom who rejected the Word of God were judged unworthy of everlasting life (Acts 13:46; Matthew 8:12).



Those who accepted the truth of the Gospel of the Kingdom are blessed and these saints are partakers forever in this love feast of Christ and His Wife, New Jerusalem.



MOTHER JERUSALEM



"But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."

(Galatians 4:26)



"Jerusalem which is above" is "New Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God" (Revelation 3:12). This "city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem" is free. She is the mother of all saints in Christ's New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24). She is "the holy city" (Revelation 21:2).



Saints of every generation have a wonderful relationship with Christ. Members of Christ's New Covenant-New Jerusalem are sprinkled with the blood of Christ (Hebrews 12:24). That is why saints are "holy ones" of God; servants to God, free from sin, bearing fruit unto holiness (Romans 6:22).



Since that great Day of the Lord, when Old Jerusalem fell and was trodden down by Gentiles in the first century (Matthew 21:43; Luke 21:24), the "New Jerusalem" has been producing "forever" the fruit that God desires:




"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever."

(Revelation 22:1-5)



This marriage of the Lamb is a love story with a heavenly fellowship and a constant intimacy throughout all the ages.




"Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

(Romans 8:35)



"For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

(Romans 8:38-39)



May Christ's love, sweet kiss, and warm embrace be in your hearts and minds always.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

The spirituality forum is above the AAA.


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## Asath (Apr 10, 2012)

Folks, not only is there no question whatsoever that the inquisitions and witch hunts found their justification in scripture, but the fact is, further, that the perpetrators of the Inquisitions – the torturers, judges, informers, and those who commanded their actions – were all ecclesiastics of one rank or another – Men of God – priests, friars, bishops, cardinals, and popes.  These were men who had devoted their lives to Christ as we find Him in the New Testament, the same Christ who is said to have healed the sick and asked those without sin to cast the first stone . . . 

This sort of thing – the torture and murder of witches and heretics in the name of Jesus – only stopped as an organized practice fairly recently (the Spanish Inquisition didn’t stop until 1834).  And the fact also remains that it wasn’t the Church that put an end to it – secular governments did.  And please also notice that in the ABSENCE of secular government the Islamics are still at it.  (And also note here that the Muslims are passionate believers in Jesus, and defaming or failing to believe in Him is a heresy punishable by death in their religion also  -- so the killing in the name of Jesus continues . . . ).

What I see here is the usual cherry-picking of the ‘nice’ parts of the Book that most modern, civilized folks want to believe, accompanied by the usual denial of the not so nice parts.  So what is happening here is that the Literal Word of God isn’t being taken as all that literal, and some even go so far as to assert that it wasn’t THEIR GOD who said that stuff – it was those other guys . . .  Funny stuff . . . 

Just the same, it is an encouraging sign.  If nobody at all is willing to defend their Holy Book as the infallibly Sacred Word anymore, then what modern ‘believers’ are actually doing is making their own personal doctrines out of the few parts of that Book that they like, and basically tossing out the rest.  This is hardly BELIEF in the classical sense, and is more of a hybrid of modern sensibility and spiritual longing, with a few guiding principles taken from that good old-fashioned almanac called the Bible.  

Once folks start saying things like, “God didn’t MEAN what it says in the Bible, He Meant what I am about to say . . .” then it seems pretty clear that they are already half-way to disbelief . . .


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> The spirituality forum is above the AAA.



Excuse me, I thought you were talking about The Revelation of Jesus Christ in here.


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## bullethead (Apr 10, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Excuse me, I thought you were talking about The Revelation of Jesus Christ in here.



Nope.
Punishment, Immortality, Killing.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Nope.
> Punishment, Immortality, Killing.



Ok since none of that for the exception of immortality has to do with Jesus, I'll just quietly kick the sand off my feet and be on my way, adios.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> They don't have a book



... but they're happy to use ours for the purposes of "not acknowledging, misinterpreting, refusing to accept, or changing the meaning of what is written ... to suit themselves".




bullethead said:


> I did not ask you if Jesus was coming back to judge the dead.



You asked:



bullethead said:


> Do you believe what is written in Revelation to be true?



... and I answered you truthfully.


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## centerpin fan (Apr 10, 2012)

Asath said:


> Folks, not only is there no question whatsoever that the inquisitions and witch hunts found their justification in scripture, but the fact is, further, that the perpetrators of the Inquisitions – the torturers, judges, informers, and those who commanded their actions – were all ecclesiastics of one rank or another – Men of God – priests, friars, bishops, cardinals, and popes.



... and, as I've noted before, they occurred when there was very little difference between church and state.  That's a dangerous situation regardless of which church and which state.


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## Asath (Apr 10, 2012)

Agreed.

But -- what does it say of religion if a (non-religious) State needs to keep them in check by literally outlawing their 'Laws of God'?


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## mtnwoman (Apr 10, 2012)

Asath said:


> Agreed.
> 
> But -- what does it say of religion if a (non-religious) State needs to keep them in check by literally outlawing their 'Laws of God'?



Which of the 10 commandments do you 'really' disagree with so much?


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## mtnwoman (Apr 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but they're happy to use ours for the purposes of "not acknowledging, misinterpreting, refusing to accept, or changing the meaning of what is written ... to suit themselves".
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh gee, you're clueless, too and off topic....


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## mtnwoman (Apr 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> The spirituality forum is above the AAA.



Why did the OP talk about Christians then? You people wanna dog us out as bait and then when we take the bait and even come here to converse, you wanna tell us to go somewhere else. What's that all about?

Some of you really do have delusions of granduer....and you wonder what brings hitler to mind. All he is is a reference to which everyone knows his mindset. I know some other people that have delusions of granduer but you wouldn't know them, so why would I bring them up? I'd rather use someone that everyone can relate to.

Hitler is just a prime example(that everyone can relate to) of how people are prejudice towards a certain group and feel superior to them, because they are clueless of just how intelligent and superior you are....hitler believed that you know?


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## bullethead (Apr 11, 2012)

2 posts with more hitler......


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## Four (Apr 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Which of the 10 commandments do you 'really' disagree with so much?



I think 6 and 8 are the only ones i'm a big fan of.  7, 9 & 10 aren't bad as personal life rules, but hardly "divine commandments"

1-4 are just worship nonsense.


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## bullethead (Apr 11, 2012)

With over 600 commandments in the book it is hard to narrow it down to a few.


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

> Just the same, it is an encouraging sign. If nobody at all is willing to defend their Holy Book as the infallibly Sacred Word anymore, then what modern ‘believers’ are actually doing is making their own personal doctrines out of the few parts of that Book that they like, and basically tossing out the rest. This is hardly BELIEF in the classical sense, and is more of a hybrid of modern sensibility and spiritual longing, with a few guiding principles taken from that good old-fashioned almanac called the Bible.



Spot on.


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

Four said:


> I think 6 and 8 are the only ones i'm a big fan of.  7, 9 & 10 aren't bad as personal life rules, but hardly "divine commandments"
> 
> 1-4 are just worship nonsense.



x 2


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Why did the OP talk about Christians then? You people wanna dog us out as bait and then when we take the bait and even come here to converse, you wanna tell us to go somewhere else. What's that all about?
> 
> Some of you really do have delusions of granduer....and you wonder what brings hitler to mind. All he is is a reference to which everyone knows his mindset. I know some other people that have delusions of granduer but you wouldn't know them, so why would I bring them up? I'd rather use someone that everyone can relate to.
> 
> Hitler is just a prime example(that everyone can relate to) of how people are prejudice towards a certain group and feel superior to them, because they are clueless of just how intelligent and superior you are....hitler believed that you know?




Hitler was a Christian...


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## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2012)

These two statements have a lot in common:




TheBishop said:


> Hitler was a Christian...




"I believe in the Second Amendment." -- Barack Obama


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

> Is this because societal morality has finally outstripped Biblical morality, and has prevailed?



Not quite yet.  But were working on it.  

Many of those who designed the great nation came from "The Elightenment" mentality.  They saw a great need to phase out all religious influence from political, and social control (through regulation).   Authors of both the DOI and the constitution, took what at the time, was an a unprecedented step to elavate individualism and individuial rights, and superimpose thier importance above that of the istitutions of government and religion.   They understood that in order to have a republic formed from the consent of a diverse people, to maximize freedom, the government could show no religious favor.


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

You do know centerpin that hitler was born, a catholic, and and promoted "Positive Chritianity" don't you?  I have never seen BO support anything to do with firearms...


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## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> You do know centerpin that hitler was born, a catholic, and and promoted "Positive Chritianity" don't you?



I could not care less about where he was born or what he promoted.  Despite whatever claims Hitler made in _Mein Kampf_, nobody in his right mind believes Hitler was a Christian.




TheBishop said:


> I have never seen BO support anything to do with firearms...



But he's _on the record_ saying he supports the 2nd Amendment.  He said it, so it must be true.

OJ said he's spend the rest of his life searching for the "real killers", so it must be true.


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less about where he was born or what he promoted.  Despite whatever claims Hitler made in _Mein Kampf_, nobody in his right mind believes Hitler was a Christian.
> Why? Is it becuase christianity has been _so_ synonmous with peace and prosperity throughout history?
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not here to derail Asaths thread by debating hitler's christianity.  You can find sources supporting both sides of that argument.  I'm just pointing out why his name should stop being invoked by christians.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> 2 posts with more hitler......



3 now.....edited to add, i see that more have come in....but you can just put if off on me, i can take it....lol...without gettin' my boxers up in a knot.....lol

would you like it better if I used someone you do not know nor can relate, too?

I could use this guy that tried to kill me, who's in prison now, because he commanded and demanded and thought he had the right to do anything he wanted or steal anything he wanted or break into my house and that he was so so smart that he could even steal my car and get away with it....delusions of grandure, I could use him as an example but would you know what/who I was referring to?

The first time I ever heard hitler used as an example, was because he claimed to be a Christian.....so I'm not the only one that uses that example, many many people do because he's a good reference to thinking he was almighty and wanted to control everything and everyone and was much smarter than everyone.....well he got his behind dragged down no matter how great and smart he thought he was. He talked down to people and belittled them because of who they were....kinda like the people get on here that believe in fairy tales and aliens and everything else we've been compared to......yeah hitler is a great example of someone who thinks they know everything about everything....and we all know who he is.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I'm not here to derail Asaths thread by debating hitler's christianity.  You can find sources supporting both sides of that argument.  I'm just pointing out why his name should stop being invoked by christians.



Hey, come on now, we didn't start it. It all started by people who were doggin' out Christians because hitler claimed to be one. We got tired of being compared to hitler, so it works both ways....hitler and aliens and talking donkeys all the same lame crapola.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> x 2



worship nonsense?.....what does that say about me?....didn't you just dog me out for trying to de value your beliefs.....

 doubleminded.....you can do it but no one else can....just you, that's where the delusions/illusions of granduer come in.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> I could not care less about where he was born or what he promoted.  Despite whatever claims Hitler made in _Mein Kampf_, nobody in his right mind believes Hitler was a Christian.*Ever since I started online debating around 2001, hitler has been used to dog out christians, just as an insult....they can dish it out but can't take it *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Four (Apr 11, 2012)

You'd think, given the attitude of this forum, that there was no such thing as a real christian prior to the protestant reformation, and even then, very few.

This is not a bad point to make given the topic of this thread... Was Hitler a heretic? a false christian? Were all who called themselves Christians prior to the protestant reformation heretics?

Not only these early christians..  but any christian that empathizes with parts of the bible that you do not. Some would say homosexuality is an abominations, others say, i dont think jesus would condemn someone for love. Each would be a heretic to the other?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I'm not here to derail Asaths thread by debating hitler's christianity.



... yet you keep debating Hitler's Christianity.  How about if we all just drop the Hitler references unless somebody starts a WWII thread?


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## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2012)

Four said:


> This is not a bad point to make given the topic of this thread... Was Hitler a heretic? a false christian?



Well, there was this thread:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=611808


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## Michael F. Gray (Apr 11, 2012)

To Centerpin fan, I respectfully disagree.  While history affords us a view of past errors, only strict adhearance to the Word of God can prevent us from repeating them. May I close by salting the participating members for the thought invested in this thread. It has proved an interesting read, as well as revealing much about the personalities and backgrounds of those who contributed. I would suggest all of us could benefit from being provoked to think. God Bless.


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## Michael F. Gray (Apr 11, 2012)

"salting" was intended to be SALUTING, my apology gentlemen & ladies


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## centerpin fan (Apr 11, 2012)

Michael F. Gray said:


> To Centerpin fan, I respectfully disagree.



With what?


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> With over 600 commandments in the book it is hard to narrow it down to a few.



That wasn't my question. My question was which of the 10 commandsments do you disagree with....no need to answer now, bishop's done a fine job, I get the point. I just wonder why you all call me on things that I don't say either but yet turn right around and do the same thing, put words in my mouth, I didn't say 600.....honestly you don't think folks can see that?


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## bullethead (Apr 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That wasn't my question. My question was which of the 10 commandsments do you disagree with....no need to answer now, bishop's done a fine job, I get the point. I just wonder why you all call me on things that I don't say either but yet turn right around and do the same thing, put words in my mouth, I didn't say 600.....honestly you don't think folks can see that?



Re-Read your books in the Bible. The "10" you think you are referring do differ in two books of the Bible. So WHICH 10 do you mean? Do yourself a favor and actually read your Bible. Seriously READ your Bible!


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> That wasn't my question. My question was which of the 10 commandsments do you disagree with....no need to answer now, bishop's done a fine job, I get the point. I just wonder why you all call me on things that I don't say either but yet turn right around and do the same thing, put words in my mouth, I didn't say 600.....honestly you don't think folks can see that?



I did't answer the question. I just happen to agree with a person that answered the question.  Stop with the conjectures.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I did't answer the question. I just happen to agree with a person that answered the question.  Stop with the conjectures.



So what? you agreed with it. And no you didn't answer my question though....
my question was didn't you just dog me out by telling me I was trying to de value your stance? and you turn around and do the same thing you accuse me of....you didn't know that agreeing with a person that is devaluing another person's belief is 'agreeing'? 

I know, I know, I just don't make any sense at all....


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Re-Read your books in the Bible. The "10" you think you are referring do differ in two books of the Bible. So WHICH 10 do you mean? Do yourself a favor and actually read your Bible. Seriously READ your Bible!



You said 600 though, now it's 20....and y'all wonder how in the world could anything you say confuse anyone.....eh?

Like I said no need to answer.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> With what?



I don't think he meant you.  I don't see what he would be talking about.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

Four said:


> You'd think, given the attitude of this forum, that there was no such thing as a real christian prior to the protestant reformation, and even then, very few.
> 
> This is not a bad point to make given the topic of this thread... Was Hitler a heretic? a false christian? Were all who called themselves Christians prior to the protestant reformation heretics?
> 
> Not only these early christians..  but any christian that empathizes with parts of the bible that you do not. Some would say homosexuality is an abominations, others say, i dont think jesus would condemn someone for love. Each would be a heretic to the other?



I agree....believe it or not...


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## bullethead (Apr 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> You said 600 though, now it's 20....and y'all wonder how in the world could anything you say confuse anyone.....eh?
> 
> Like I said no need to answer.



20? Sorry I never said 20. Don't add what is not there.
There are Two versions of the 10 Commandments in Exodus and yet another in Deuteronomy.

Now take those and compare them to the "10" Commandments in the Protestant Bible, Catholic Bible, and Jewish Bible and we have quite a confusing set of Commandments to live by. Which ones are the Standard?

Afterwards we'll work on the 600+.


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## TheBishop (Apr 11, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> So what? you agreed with it. And no you didn't answer my question though....
> my question was didn't you just dog me out by telling me I was trying to de value your stance? and you turn around and do the same thing you accuse me of....you didn't know that agreeing with a person that is devaluing another person's belief is 'agreeing'?
> 
> I know, I know, I just don't make any sense at all....



I didn't see were he dogged your religion.  Agreeing with him is not dogging out your religion.  

And for the second time:
I have no problems with an attck on my position. I do however expect refraint from_ persistantly trying to fabricate connections between unassociated and incompatible ideas and my position._


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I didn't see were he dogged your religion.  Agreeing with him is not dogging out your religion.
> 
> And for the second time:
> I have no problems with an attck on my position. I do however expect refraint from_ persistantly trying to fabricate connections between unassociated and incompatible ideas and my position._



That's not what you said before, you said I was trying to devalue your stance.

I can attack your position but I can't attack your position by fabricating connections, between unassociated and incompatible ideas in your position.....ok got it...in other words you can refer to H but nobody else can, is basically what you're saying....since he is unassociated and incompatible in my position also....did you get that?

huh? what did she say?

I'd better save this post for proof......
it'll be something different next time.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I didn't see were he dogged your religion.  Agreeing with him is not dogging out your religion.
> 
> [/I]



Didn't he say the first 4 commandments were nonsense? He couldn't have been talking about the bible.....of course not....since that was what were talking about right before he posted.

And sometimes y'all really do convince me that I'm the one that's clueless.....

I'm glad I'm paying more attention, I sure do see a lot more stuff than I used to, lucky yous.


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## Asath (Apr 11, 2012)

Not sure where all of the Hitler fascination is coming from all of a sudden, but let’s nip this thought in the bud – Forget for a moment about the leader, and consider the led.  

Germany is, was, and has always been an overwhelmingly Christian country (at least, since the day Christianity took root there).  Nazism wasn’t embodied in one man – it was held together by the collective BELIEF of the German people in their racial purity and superiority.  It was held as an article of faith that ALL impure elements – invalids, homosexuals, Gypsies, and particularly Jews – posed a threat to their precious fatherland.

Though the ultimate solution – the attempt to totally exterminate the ‘impure’ – took a predominantly secular form, the hatred of the Jews in particular was a direct inheritance from medieval Christianity.  For centuries the German people had viewed the Jews as the worst species of heretics, and it was with the passage of the Nuremberg Laws in 1935 that the Germans officially declared the Jews to be not a religion, but a race, opening the door to institutionalized persecution – a healthy and pure Germany could not tolerate the presence of an alien race of people.  Anti-Semitism is integral to Christian doctrine, and has been since the first century – Germany simply provided one of the first modern governmental justifications.

In 1936 the German Catholic episcopate issued this guideline: “Race, soil, blood, and people are precious natural values, which God the Lord has created and the care of which he has entrusted to the Germans.”  Wait – it gets better – the Church willingly open its genealogical records to the Nazis to help them trace a person’s Jewish ancestry, and this despite the fact that the Church was openly opposed to much else in the Nazi platform, on the grounds that it meant to curtail their own power.  

But wait – it gets EVEN better – despite the fact that nearly every German citizen who supported and/or participated directly in the genocide was a Christian, not a single one was excommunicated, before, during, or after the war.  During this period Pope Pius XII continued to excommunicate scholars and theologians by the hundreds for holding unorthodox views, and continued to ban books by the hundreds, but not a single perpetrator of genocide was single out for official disapproval.

After the war, German Christianity continued to read their Book, piously say their prayers, and proclaim their spiritual kinship with Jesus Christ, just as they had before, and during, the war, without a single bit of interference or even disapproval from the relevant Church Leaders.  Born and Baptized a Christian, even Hitler went to his grave with that sacrament in place.

If one wishes to assert that none of these people were actually Christians, then perhaps a definition of Christianity that is wholly in opposition to the Leaders of the various Christian Churches is being employed.  (See my point concerning making up one’s own dogma to suit oneself, above.)


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## mtnwoman (Apr 11, 2012)

Asath said:


> Not sure where all of the Hitler fascination is coming from all of a sudden, but let’s nip this thought in the bud – Forget for a moment about the leader, and consider the led.
> 
> Germany is, was, and has always been an overwhelmingly Christian country (at least, since the day Christianity took root there).  Nazism wasn’t embodied in one man – it was held together by the collective BELIEF of the German people in their racial purity and superiority.  It was held as an article of faith that ALL impure elements – invalids, homosexuals, Gypsies, and particularly Jews – posed a threat to their precious fatherland.
> 
> ...



I agree, I may see it thru a different colored lens, but I see that.

I appreciate all that and I have always believed that a wolf in sheeps clothing can 'lead' the sheep astray. That's what satan does. If I wanted to guide you in any direction, whether it be war, extermination,deliverance or whatever, I'd wear the sargeant hat, or the saviour hat, or the let's clean up the vermen hat. Not every one has that much power. Satan does. If I wanted to get you hooked on crack so I could make money, I'd turn you on for free and party with you and we'd have a good time, and you'd be hooked and i'd benefit from that. Same with prostitution, gambling, cigs, liquor,crack or anything else.

How do the germans feel today? Do they still agree with hitler? were they tricked? do they know they were tricked? do you hold a grudge against them because of hitler? or do you think they were lead astray by some kind of mindcontrol or brainwashing or whatever? should they continue following hitler or should they do what they are doing, going back to what they knew before hitler. Do you have an attitude today towards the german people....I don't.

I can see that hitler was evil, he tricked and tripped people up and for some reason he was allowed to do that.....don't you find it strange that it's the jews again who are persecuted...God's chosen people. For as far back as we know, someone has tried to destroy the Jews....you don't find that strange? Maybe God is chastizing the Jews, maybe they wanted to work on their own free will and He lets them. I don't know.

Do you believe that a group of people can be brainwashed? Have we seen that happen? Is it for the good of mankind? or had it mostly been a tradgedy. I find that satan is the wolf in sheeps clothing most of the time.

Can you and I make amends? I agree with a lot that you say and usually it's pretty deep and I have to read it a few times to get it. We may be on opposing teams but I don't wish for us to be enemies.


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