# If Jesus Returned...



## davidstaples (Dec 16, 2010)

To all the Christians out there... 

If Jesus returned today and walked up to you and told you who he was... would you believe him?  Or would you require him to perform some sort of miracle or something?  Would you require proof?  After all, aren't you supposed to just have faith that this person is who he says he is?


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## ALLBEEF (Dec 16, 2010)

I think all of us who are ready will know him time we see him.....


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> To all the Christians out there...
> 
> If Jesus returned today and walked up to you and told you who he was... would you believe him?  Or would you require him to perform some sort of miracle or something?  Would you require proof?  After all, aren't you supposed to just have faith that this person is who he says he is?





ALLBEEF said:


> I think all of us who are ready will know him time we see him.....



You mean like David Koresh or Charles Manson? They got some folks to believe. 

I would need a miracle of grand proportions; not like one of those Chris Angel stunts.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> To all the Christians out there...
> 
> If Jesus returned today and walked up to you and told you who he was... would you believe him?  Or would you require him to perform some sort of miracle or something?  Would you require proof?  After all, aren't you supposed to just have faith that this person is who he says he is?



You have smuggled in way to many assumptions in these questions.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> You mean like David Koresh or Charles Manson? They got some folks to believe.


in a lie 



> I would need a miracle of grand proportions; not like one of those Chris Angel stunts.



it will be, if we are here to see it


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## davidstaples (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> You have smuggled in way to many assumptions in these questions.



There's no assumptions there at all.  They're honest questions.  If someone walked up to you and said they were Jesus, would you believe them?


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 16, 2010)

if you need proof of Jesus when he comes... YOU never knew him.. those truely saved will know


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## dawg2 (Dec 16, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> There's no assumptions there at all.  They're honest questions.  If someone walked up to you and said they were Jesus, would you believe them?



Based on the post above: NO


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

dawg2 said:


> Based on the post above: NO



Exactly


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

Your first basic assumption is that He would have to tell me who He was and I wouldnt already know.


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## davidstaples (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Your first basic assumption is that He would have to tell me who He was and I wouldnt already know.



Well then why didn't people believe him when he was around the first time?  He performed miracles right in front of them and they still didn't believe.


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## Nicodemus (Dec 16, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Well then why didn't people believe him when he was around the first time?  He performed miracles right in front of them and they still didn't believe.




Some did. Some didn`t. Just as they do now.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 16, 2010)

nicodemus said it right


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## jwjack7641 (Dec 16, 2010)

If everyone believed him when he came the first time then the Lord's will would not have been processed. Jesus came to this earth to die on that cross. He knew that. That was the ultimate sacrifice that was made for me and YOU.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Well then why didn't people believe him when he was around the first time?  He performed miracles right in front of them and they still didn't believe.



 Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

I'll know Him.

John 10:3-6

3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I would need a miracle of grand proportions; not like one of those Chris Angel stunts.



John 20:29 

Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”


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## jason4445 (Dec 16, 2010)

Over the years I have taken a couple of dozen to the nut house who were cracked up over religion and a few of those thought they were Jesus.  One day driving back after listening to a guy rant for two hours and quote one Bible verse after another word for word I did wonder if the real Jesus ever came would we put him in the nut house.

I am not a believer in the second coming of Jesus-and if I am wrong and he did come I sincerely believe he would take a long look around, head back to heaven in distress and tell God "I gave them one law to follow - Do unto others, and they can't even do that - what they have created for themselves on earth is a worse He!! than anything we could come up with - just let them be.


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## davidstaples (Dec 16, 2010)

Madman said:


> I'll know Him.
> 
> John 10:3-6
> 
> 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”



Let's take that "But they will never follow a stranger" section.  So how do you explain, as mentioned above, David Koresh?  How do you explain the people who claim to be Jesus?  There's even one in the documentary Religulous who says he is Jesus.  Perhaps some of you should watch that movie and see the points that some of your opposition makes.  Here's the trailer for your viewing enjoyment...


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Let's take that "But they will never follow a stranger" section.  So how do you explain, .......................................



I don't have to explain anything.  I did not follow David K.

I WILL KNOW HIS VOICE!


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> if you need proof of Jesus when he comes... YOU never knew him.. those truely saved will know





Madman said:


> I don't have to explain anything.  I did not follow David K.
> 
> I WILL KNOW HIS VOICE!





stringmusic said:


> Your first basic assumption is that He would have to tell me who He was and I wouldnt already know.



So you absolutely, positively, without a doubt think you will know who he when you see him.  What if some of you disagree?


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So you absolutely, positively, without a doubt think you will know who he when you see him.  What if some of you disagree?



some will agreee some wont, the truely saved will know


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So you absolutely, positively, without a doubt think you will know who he when you see him.  What if some of you disagree?



I don't see any disagreement.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So you absolutely, positively, without a doubt think you will know who he when you see him.  What if some of you disagree?



You know how all the people that have ever called themselves the Son of God turned out not to be the Son of God? Yet we are in a forum in 2010 talking about Jesus, the Son of God. There will be no disagreement about it, it will be plain to me just as it will be to you.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Madman said:


> I don't see any disagreement.





stringmusic said:


> You know how all the people that have ever called themselves the Son of God turned out not to be the Son of God? Yet we are in a forum in 2010 talking about Jesus, the Son of God. There will be no disagreement about it, it will be plain to me just as it will be to you.



I think I won't take your word for it, based on some of the other things you've espoused.  No offense.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> I think I won't take your word for it, based on some of the other things you've espoused.  No offense.



I kinda figured that.


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> based on some of the other things you've espoused.  No offense.



As in what?

None taken,  I always consider the source.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Madman said:


> As in what?
> 
> None taken,  I always consider the source.



"Daddy, tell me again about the 6000 year old Earth."


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> "Daddy, tell me again about the 6000 year old Earth."



I dont know how old the earth is and I dont care.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I dont know how old the earth is and I dont care.



Yes. I understand your position quite clearly: " If'n it's in that Good Book, well, I'll be believin' it to be true."


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> "Daddy, tell me again about the 6000 year old Earth."



ex nihilo nihil fit....

Yes grasshopper everything from nothing.  I understand.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Yes. I understand your position quite clearly: " If'n it's in that Good Book, well, I'll be believin' it to be true."



nope... missed the point, I will try again, I dont care if the world is 6,000 years old or 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years old. It has no effect on me, or you.


BTW, I'm not cajun.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 16, 2010)

Feller walked up to me a few months ago and told me he was Jesus, and I believed him. He was a Mexican feller looking for a construction site.


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## Ridge Walker (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> I dont know how old the earth is and I dont care.


 Why not? What else don't you care about? Do you feel conflicted because the fundamentalist claim of a 6000 year old earth doesn't match up with the overwhelming evidence of a much older earth?

RW


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## Ridge Walker (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> nope... missed the point, I will try again, I dont care if the world is 6,000 years old or 6,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years old. It has no effect on me, or you.
> 
> 
> BTW, I'm not cajun.



Well, for me at least, the effect is that it if that is wrong....what else is wrong?

RW


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## Madman (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> "Daddy, tell me again about the 6000 year old Earth."



You'll have to talk to you're daddy about that.  I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.


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## davidstaples (Dec 16, 2010)

Madman said:


> You'll have to talk to you're daddy about that.  I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.



My mother's parents were Seventh Day Adventists who made this same or similar claim.  They said there's no way the earth was millions of years old.  They also said eating chocolate cake was a sin.  (I was informed of this on my 8th birthday.  Yeah... some real good Christian folk there...)


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

> Why not?


it is a pointless arguement



> What else don't you care about?


You want me to list ALL of the things I dont care about?





> Do you feel conflicted because the fundamentalist claim of a 6000 year old earth doesn't match up with the overwhelming evidence of a much older earth?
> 
> RW



No, I dont, I have already stated that it doesnt matter how old the earth is.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Madman said:


> You'll have to talk to you're daddy about that.  I don't see that in the Bible anywhere.




Apparently, it's a logical conclusion to make.  I feel silly linking to the Creation Museum.  I'm sure you can find the evidence for yourself.  Ask one of the guys around here.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> it is a pointless arguement
> 
> 
> You want me to list ALL of the things I dont care about?
> ...



Does it matter if a burning bush talked?


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## Ridge Walker (Dec 16, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> it is a pointless arguement
> 
> 
> You want me to list ALL of the things I dont care about?
> ...


Does it matter, or do you care if the Jonah and the whale story is true? How about Noah's Ark? These stories are in the bible after all...they must matter.

RW


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## crbrumbelow (Dec 16, 2010)

If someone walks up and says he is Jesus look for his wounds.  We will see Him as He was crucified.  If the person has no marks, run the other way.


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## Thor827 (Dec 16, 2010)

Do you think people will be shocked when he looks more like Osama Bin Laden than that guy painted in all the churches?


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## centerc (Dec 16, 2010)

Look at his hands.


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## Lowjack (Dec 16, 2010)

The OP is Assuming Yeshua did not establish a way of recognizing him, he did in Matthew Chapter 24.

23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time. 

   26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather. 

   29 “Immediately after the distress of those days 

   “‘the sun will be darkened, 
   and the moon will not give its light; 
the stars will fall from the sky, 
   and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’* 

   30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. 

Unless he comes in the Clouds with the Angels and the resurrected saints then he hasn't come yet.*


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## jwjack7641 (Dec 16, 2010)

Thank you Lowjack I was about to use that scripture!


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## CAL (Dec 17, 2010)

Ridge Walker said:


> Does it matter, or do you care if the Jonah and the whale story is true? How about Noah's Ark? These stories are in the bible after all...they must matter.
> 
> RW


 Oh ye of little faith!


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## fish hawk (Dec 17, 2010)

I have come to the conclusion that most if not all non- believers on this board are scared to death and are doubting there own beliefs,especially when they read something like Matthew Chapter 24,if not they wouldn't be so concerned about it and this sub-forum would have no reason to EXIST.....If you are truly a non-believer then theres no reason for all the questions and no reason to try and prove the Bible wrong or that God doesn't exist ,because you already have the answer.Right????Im with Lowjack,it will be clear!!!


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## dawg2 (Dec 17, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Let's take that "But they will never follow a stranger" section.  So how do you explain, as mentioned above, David Koresh?  How do you explain the people who claim to be Jesus?  There's even one in the documentary Religulous who says he is Jesus.  Perhaps some of you should watch that movie and see the points that some of your opposition makes.  Here's the trailer for your viewing enjoyment...



You can explain Koresh as easily as Hitler or Stalin.  Desperate or scared people latching onto hope.  People go nuts over a rock star or an actor.

As far as the people who claim to be Jesus? Well, many are probably Schizophrenic or afflicted with some othe rmental disorder.  Just because they have a mental disorder doesn't mean they aren't smart or believable.


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## davidstaples (Dec 17, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> I have come to the conclusion that most if not all non- believers on this board are scared to death and are doubting there own beliefs,especially when they read something like Matthew Chapter 24,if not they wouldn't be so concerned about it and this sub-forum would have no reason to EXIST.....If you are truly a non-believer then theres no reason for all the questions and no reason to try and prove the Bible wrong or that God doesn't exist ,because you already have the answer.Right????Im with Lowjack,it will be clear!!!



Or perhaps we just like picking on you guys.  It's a good place to come for a laugh.  I'm no more scared of what's in Matthew 24 than I would be if you told me Santa Claus wasn't real.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 17, 2010)

Good grief...


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## Ridge Walker (Dec 17, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> I have come to the conclusion that most if not all non- believers on this board are scared to death and are doubting there own beliefs,especially when they read something like Matthew Chapter 24,if not they wouldn't be so concerned about it and this sub-forum would have no reason to EXIST.....If you are truly a non-believer then theres no reason for all the questions and no reason to try and prove the Bible wrong or that God doesn't exist ,because you already have the answer.Right????Im with Lowjack,it will be clear!!!



Funny thing is I think that a lot of times it's Christians that are scared to death and doubting their own beliefs. Especially when they ignore parts of the bible that they don't think make sense (Jonah), or say that they don't know what will happen to all the good non-Christian people of the world (Gandhi) when they die. Or that it doesn't matter how old the Earth is. I think that some put those aspects out of their mind because they're not comfortable with how little sense those things make.

RW


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## Madman (Dec 17, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Apparently, it's a logical conclusion to make.  I feel silly linking to the Creation Museum.  I'm sure you can find the evidence for yourself.  Ask one of the guys around here.



So we are in agrrement that the Bible does not say the earth is 6000 years old.

Heaven forbid you sound silly. "ex nihilo nihil fit"  


Very good.  Back to the OP.  

When Jesus returns I WILL KNOW HIS VOICE.

Next topic.


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## Madman (Dec 17, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> I have come to the conclusion that most if not all non- believers on this board are scared to death and are doubting there own beliefs,especially when they read something like Matthew Chapter 24,if not they wouldn't be so concerned about it and this sub-forum would have no reason to EXIST.....



Hey Fish,

"If you are uncertain of eternity, death is a very dangerous thing!"
                                quote from someone other than me.


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## Madman (Dec 17, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> My mother's parents were Seventh Day Adventists who made this same or similar claim.  They said there's no way the earth was millions of years old.  They also said eating chocolate cake was a sin.  (I was informed of this on my 8th birthday.  Yeah... some real good Christian folk there...)



No wonder you don't like Christians, they took away your chocolate cake!!  Bet having to go to church on Saturday got in the way of your cartoon watching too.  If I had never seen Bugs Bunny I'd be ticked at Christians too. 

Bet you can't find a 6000 year old earth OR chocolate cake being a sin in the Bible.  Seems Jesus asked a question similar to this; "Are you going to follow the laws of men or of God?"  You should have considered that at 8 years old.

Sorry, is betting a sin?


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## stringmusic (Dec 17, 2010)

Ridge Walker said:


> Funny thing is I think that a lot of times it's Christians that are scared to death and doubting their own beliefs. Especially when they ignore parts of the bible that they don't think make sense (Jonah)


If you go into a supernatural event, denying that the supernatural exist in the first place, you wont get very far in belief in the Bible





> or say that they don't know what will happen to all the good non-Christian people of the world (Gandhi) when they die.


If you die without Jesus as your personal Savior when you die, you spend eternity apart from God. I dont where  Ghandi is at right now.




> Or that it doesn't matter how old the Earth is.


Does it matter?


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## Ridge Walker (Dec 17, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> If you die without Jesus as your personal Savior when you die, you spend eternity apart from God. I dont where  Ghandi is at right now.


Isn't that sugarcoating it? I thought that you burn in heck if you don't accepy Jesus as your savior.






stringmusic said:


> Does it matter?



It does if the age of the Earth can be proven to  be much older than what most Christians believe it to be, based on what it says in the bible. If that is false, you have to ask yourself, what else is false?

RW


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## Nicodemus (Dec 17, 2010)

Why do you athiests even worry about what Christians do? Or what the Bible says?

Or, are ya`ll just lookin` for trouble?


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## stringmusic (Dec 17, 2010)

Ridge Walker said:


> Isn't that sugarcoating it? I thought that you burn in heck if you don't accepy Jesus as your savior.


Spending eternity without the presence of God is the only thing that I know happens when a person dies without accepting the LORD, I dont know what he11 is like, Im sure it wont be enjoyable.







> It does if the age of the Earth can be proven to  be much older than what most Christians believe it to be, based on what it says in the bible.


Based on what the Bible says, it does not give a number on how old the earth is, I take that as it doesnt matter. It has nothing to do with living a life the way God intended. Many people try to figure out to many things that dont matter to living a life the way God intended, I.E. when Jesus is coming back, how old the earth is, etc. etc. I think this gets many people confused and in the dark, it also turns people away from the Gospel. There is absolute truth in the words of God, my sincere hope is that you and others on this forum weed through the things that do not matter and find truth through Jesus Christ. In my opinion, it is worth searching your entire life to find the truth, you/it is worth it.


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## Ridge Walker (Dec 17, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Why do you athiests even worry about what Christians do? Or what the Bible says?
> 
> Or, are ya`ll just lookin` for trouble?



Well, I would say I lean towards being an agnostic, not an atheist. I only really worry about what Christians do, when it comes to religion being pushed down people's throats. Such as blue laws, prayer in school, the God Hates ... crew, etc. Otherwise, I really couldn't care less what someone believes in. My parents who I love dearly are in fact devout believers. 
I'm absolutely not looking for trouble, I just find it interesting stuff to talk about.

RW


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## ted_BSR (Dec 17, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So you absolutely, positively, without a doubt think you will know who he when you see him.  What if some of you disagree?



You will also know. Without a doubt.


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## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2010)

ted_BSR said:


> You will also know. Without a doubt.



Yep..... Still nothing.  I'm getting nothing from your unfounded assertion.  No information. No revelation.  No nothing.  Sorry.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 18, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Yep..... Still nothing.  I'm getting nothing from your unfounded assertion.  No information. No revelation.  No nothing.  Sorry.



Assuming he returns as the Bible describes, there won't be a doubt as to who he is. Now, if he returns quietly...


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## ted_BSR (Dec 18, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Yep..... Still nothing.  I'm getting nothing from your unfounded assertion.  No information. No revelation.  No nothing.  Sorry.



Please don't apologize to me Ambush (i don't claim to offer proof). If you are alive when it happens, you will know.


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## campinnurse (Dec 19, 2010)

jason4445 said:


> Over the years I have taken a couple of dozen to the nut house who were cracked up over religion and a few of those thought they were Jesus.  One day driving back after listening to a guy rant for two hours and quote one Bible verse after another word for word I did wonder if the real Jesus ever came would we put him in the nut house.
> 
> I am not a believer in the second coming of Jesus-and if I am wrong and he did come I sincerely believe he would take a long look around, head back to heaven in distress and tell God "I gave them one law to follow - Do unto others, and they can't even do that - what they have created for themselves on earth is a worse He!! than anything we could come up with - just let them be.


If anyone has ever been in a mental hospital you know that that is one of the most common delusions (thinking you are Jesus).These folks sincerely believe they are Jesus and can be convincing. Who knows, maybe Jesus has already come and gone because no one believed him.


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## fish hawk (Dec 20, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Some did. Some didn`t. Just as they do now.



Its hard for most to believe in things that they can see let alone things they cant.Seeing but not believing is the Devils lie.I have seen God preform many miracles within my own life, but you will truly never see God work in your life unless you put your full faith in him.


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## ambush80 (Dec 20, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> Its hard for most to believe in things that they can see let alone things they cant.Seeing but not believing is the Devils lie.I have seen God preform many miracles within my own life, but you will truly never see God work in your life unless you put your full faith in him.



Are you saying that you won't see haints until you believe that they exist?  I agree 100%.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 20, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Yep..... Still nothing.  I'm getting nothing from your unfounded assertion.  No information. No revelation.  No nothing.  Sorry.



Thats cause when the Lord knocked at your door you did not let him in.... Ted on the other hand did and knows his presence...


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## fish hawk (Dec 20, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Are you saying that you won't see haints until you believe that they exist?  I agree 100%.



I dont believe in haints but I sure believe in Demons.


1 John 4

 1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.

 4 You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. 5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them. 6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.


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## ambush80 (Dec 20, 2010)

fish hawk said:


> I dont believe in haints but I sure believe in Demons.
> 
> 
> 1 John 4
> ...



Why don't you just say it in your own words?  The continued scripture quoting  is becoming EXCEEDINGLY tiresome and NOT apologetics.   

Let me help you:

"You won't be a-knowin' bout' them haints til' Ye begin a-believin' in em'.  An you won't be a'knowin' which one a them haints is real and which ones is a counterfeit til' ya gots da discernin' power o' the Holy Sperit",  is basically what those verses are saying.


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## davidstaples (Dec 20, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> Thats cause when the Lord knocked at your door you did not let him in.... Ted on the other hand did and knows his presence...



I don't open the door to strangers with long hair wearing robes.


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## davidstaples (Dec 20, 2010)

Madman said:


> No wonder you don't like Christians, they took away your chocolate cake!!  Bet having to go to church on Saturday got in the way of your cartoon watching too.  If I had never seen Bugs Bunny I'd be ticked at Christians too.
> 
> Bet you can't find a 6000 year old earth OR chocolate cake being a sin in the Bible.  Seems Jesus asked a question similar to this; "Are you going to follow the laws of men or of God?"  You should have considered that at 8 years old.
> 
> Sorry, is betting a sin?



Nope, my parents gave me the chocolate cake anyways.  And we rarely went to church with my grandparents.  I was just illustrating the point that some Christians have even wackier views than you do.  (I think... haven't read back through the thread to see why I brought that up, nor do I have the time to right now...)


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## davidstaples (Dec 20, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Why do you athiests even worry about what Christians do? Or what the Bible says?
> 
> Or, are ya`ll just lookin` for trouble?



I don't think any of us (I'm assuming you're including agnostics here too) worry about what Christians do or even what the Bible says.  Many of us are well versed in what the Bible says but that doesn't mean we believe it.  I wouldn't even go so far as to say we're lookin' for trouble when it's an atheists / agnostics / apologetics subforum.  Just the opposite... I'd say it's the Christians coming in here thinking that we can be "saved" that you might consider the ones "looking for trouble".


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## Madman (Dec 20, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> My mother's parents were Seventh Day Adventists who made this same or similar claim.  They said there's no way the earth was millions of years old.  They also said eating chocolate cake was a sin.  (I was informed of this on my 8th birthday.  Yeah... some real good Christian folk there...)



The implication was that your grandparents were "bad" because they told you on your 8th birthday that chocolate was a sin.

I know people with all kinds of odd beliefs, from every denomination, religion, and even some with no religion or beliefs.  Those beliefs do not make them "bad" just different.  

Seems you don't have much grace for "different" people.


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## Madman (Dec 20, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> I was just illustrating the point that some Christians have even wackier views than you do.  (I think... haven't read back through the thread to see why I brought that up, nor do I have the time to right now...)



Yep.  Some agnostics have wackier beliefs too.  Something  comes from nothing, order out of disorder, information from a lack of information.


That is the strange thing about PEOPLE, they ARE wacky.

I'm with you on that one.

Still ain't seen 6000 year old earth or chocolate being a sin in the Bible.

Just another straw man.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 20, 2010)

My sheep will know my voice.....we'll know him.


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## dominantpredator (Dec 21, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> To all the Christians out there...
> 
> If Jesus returned today and walked up to you and told you who he was... would you believe him?  Or would you require him to perform some sort of miracle or something?  Would you require proof?  After all, aren't you supposed to just have faith that this person is who he says he is?



The bible tells us that when Jesus does return, everyone will know who he is.....including the non believers. It also tells us that every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord......even the non believers. Your rhetoric question is a hypothetical question and holds no value as you would have it. Good try, but before you believe in or don't believe in a God maybe you should try and understand it before you just say "I don't believe" and try to get others to follow a path of destruction. I will be the first to admit that everyone does not need God to live a life of doing right. However, to get a free pardon from sin, each individual will have to make his/her own decision. As a person of good character, you should allow others to make informed decisions. The fact that you are on here mocking someone's religous beliefs is downright detestable.


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## davidstaples (Dec 21, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> As a person of good character, you should allow others to make informed decisions. The fact that you are on here mocking someone's religous beliefs is downright detestable.



How am I not allowing anyone to make informed decisions?  I'm actually encouraging people to make informed decisions.  Most people in the United States are Christians because that's what their parents were.  Had they been raised in China or Afghanistan or India they more than likely would not be a Christian but a follower of whatever faith their parents were a follower of.  People should think for themselves... not just follow the crowd because they inherited a particular religion / denomination.  Perhaps if you don't like people mocking religion then maybe the "atheist / agnostic / apologetics" forums isn't the place for you... maybe you should stick to the Christian forums where you'll be all safe and sound from any criticism of your beliefs.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 21, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> The bible tells us that when Jesus does return, everyone will know who he is.....including the non believers. It also tells us that every knee shall bend and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord......even the non believers. Your rhetoric question is a hypothetical question and holds no value as you would have it. Good try, but before you believe in or don't believe in a God maybe you should try and understand it before you just say "I don't believe" and try to get others to follow a path of destruction. I will be the first to admit that everyone does not need God to live a life of doing right. However, to get a free pardon from sin, each individual will have to make his/her own decision. As a person of good character, you should allow others to make informed decisions. The fact that you are on here mocking someone's religous beliefs is downright detestable.



How do you know what anyone has done to understand anything?  Maybe David has tried but still comes up short on the faith thing.  Who are you to say?  How does his or mine or anyone's posting on the AAA forum make others follow a path of destruction???  It might be destruction to you, but to others it might be reason.  To follow your logic, those that have questions or doubts or disbelief should keep it to themselves lest we led others to the devil.  One of the things that I have not been able to digest so far is the Christian assumption that their way is the only way to heaven.  There are too many people on this forum that feel attacked and threatened when someone with other views ventures forth a comment.


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## drippin' rock (Dec 21, 2010)

More to the point, I think the morally superior tone taken by some here does just as much damage to the Christian cause as others saying they don't believe in anything and challenging Christians to debate.


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## stringmusic (Dec 21, 2010)

> One of the things that I have not been able to digest so far is the Christian assumption that their way is the only way to heaven.



Truth, by definition, is exclusive. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Christianity cannot all be the truth at the same time.
Relativism cannot include Christianity, Jesus claimed to be the only way to God.


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## stringmusic (Dec 21, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> More to the point, I think the morally superior tone taken by some here does just as much damage to the Christian cause as others saying they don't believe in anything and challenging Christians to debate.



agree.


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## dominantpredator (Dec 21, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> How do you know what anyone has done to understand anything?  Maybe David has tried but still comes up short on the faith thing.  Who are you to say?  How does his or mine or anyone's posting on the AAA forum make others follow a path of destruction???  It might be destruction to you, but to others it might be reason.  To follow your logic, those that have questions or doubts or disbelief should keep it to themselves lest we led others to the devil.  One of the things that I have not been able to digest so far is the Christian assumption that their way is the only way to heaven.  There are too many people on this forum that feel attacked and threatened when someone with other views ventures forth a comment.



Because of the question he asked in his post is how I knew he had never gotten that far in his quest for "why?". The bible is clear. The answer to everything you need to know is in the bible. A person has to actually read it and study it to understand. God gave us the answers and we must find the answers. This is done by reading and studying scriptures and applying those teachings to our everyday routine of life. This universe is so complex that it would be the most ridiculous thing to think that there was not a creator. The miracles we see Jesus perform is not as such as those televangelists' seem to display on their shows. The whole story of man has centered around the messiah. The old testament gives references of his coming. And the new testament brings forth the savior's birth to a virgin(the real reason for Christmas), his teachings, his life and finally his death for all sinners. No doubt about it....he is the very element of our calender. Scholars have proven the bible to be true time and time again. Whenever a person genuinely asks or prays that God would unconditionaly come into their lives and that they realize they are nothing without God, and without God there is nothing, than God will come in and change that person....God will make whole! I am not perfect and don't claim to be. I do know that this world is not by accident.....and there is no way that this could be all there is to it. All people must answer that question for themselves. If one is truely seeking God, he doesn't have to look very far. I am sorry if I sounded condescending in my first post.....I was more like excited, excited to try and explain my point of view of things. Whatever it is you are looking for I hope you find it, though it may not be on this side of the threads. I should go to church more and study my bible more and live my life a little more Christ-like, but atleast I believe that I know the answers to alot of questions that might somehow drive me insane.


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## dominantpredator (Dec 21, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> Truth, by definition, is exclusive. Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, and Christianity cannot all be the truth at the same time.
> Relativism cannot include Christianity, Jesus claimed to be the only way to God.



Islam has a dead god. I never understood them at all. No one should enter unto God,unless they do so through the son.


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## fish hawk (Dec 21, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Most people in the United States are Christians because that's what their parents were.



Not me.


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## ambush80 (Dec 22, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> Because of the question he asked in his post is how I knew he had never gotten that far in his quest for "why?". The bible is clear. The answer to everything you need to know is in the bible. A person has to actually read it and study it to understand. God gave us the answers and we must find the answers. This is done by reading and studying scriptures and applying those teachings to our everyday routine of life. This universe is so complex that it would be the most ridiculous thing to think that there was not a creator. The miracles we see Jesus perform is not as such as those televangelists' seem to display on their shows. The whole story of man has centered around the messiah. The old testament gives references of his coming. And the new testament brings forth the savior's birth to a virgin(the real reason for Christmas), his teachings, his life and finally his death for all sinners. No doubt about it....he is the very element of our calender. Scholars have proven the bible to be true time and time again. Whenever a person genuinely asks or prays that God would unconditionaly come into their lives and that they realize they are nothing without God, and without God there is nothing, than God will come in and change that person....God will make whole! I am not perfect and don't claim to be. I do know that this world is not by accident.....and there is no way that this could be all there is to it. All people must answer that question for themselves. If one is truely seeking God, he doesn't have to look very far. I am sorry if I sounded condescending in my first post.....I was more like excited, excited to try and explain my point of view of things. Whatever it is you are looking for I hope you find it, though it may not be on this side of the threads. I should go to church more and study my bible more and live my life a little more Christ-like, but atleast I believe that I know the answers to alot of questions that might somehow drive me insane.




Well, aren't you special.........


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## dominantpredator (Dec 22, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Well, aren't you special.........



Yes. As a matter of fact, we are all very special to God. We are made in the image of our father.


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## jmharris23 (Dec 22, 2010)

drippin' rock said:


> How do you know what anyone has done to understand anything?  Maybe David has tried but still comes up short on the faith thing.  Who are you to say?  How does his or mine or anyone's posting on the AAA forum make others follow a path of destruction???  It might be destruction to you, but to others it might be reason.  To follow your logic, those that have questions or doubts or disbelief should keep it to themselves lest we led others to the devil.  One of the things that I have not been able to digest so far is the Christian assumption that their way is the only way to heaven.  There are too many people on this forum that feel attacked and threatened when someone with other views ventures forth a comment.



The belief that there is only one way to heaven is not a Christian "assumption." 

It was a statement made by Christ himself that he is the only way.

If you believe in Christ then you believe in His words. 

I'm praying for you.


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## mattech (Dec 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> My mother's parents were Seventh Day Adventists who made this same or similar claim.  They said there's no way the earth was millions of years old.  They also said eating chocolate cake was a sin.  (I was informed of this on my 8th birthday.  Yeah... some real good Christian folk there...)



You know, if you were baptist you could have all the chocolate cake you want.


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## davidstaples (Dec 22, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> Because of the question he asked in his post is how I knew he had never gotten that far in his quest for "why?". The bible is clear. The answer to everything you need to know is in the bible.



You've obviously not read too many threads in this particular sub-forum as otherwise you'd have known that I grew up in church.  I considered myself a Christian until my late teens.  I've read the entire Bible.  I've logically worked my way to the conclusion that nobody knows for sure whether your god exists... that includes me and it includes you.


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## davidstaples (Dec 22, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> Scholars have proven the bible to be true time and time again.



No they haven't.  They have offered their opinion that the Bible is true but they have not *proven* it to be true.


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## davidstaples (Dec 22, 2010)

mattech said:


> You know, if you were baptist you could have all the chocolate cake you want.



Yep, my father was (and still is) a southern baptist.  My parents gave me cake, my grandparents told me it was a sin.


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## davidstaples (Dec 22, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> Yes. As a matter of fact, we are all very special to God. We are made in the image of our father.



Which is another debatable point.  The Bible does indeed say that we're made in the image and likeness of God.  However, you believe your god is perfect, right?  If that's the case, how can the image and likeness of something perfect be imperfect?

The above point is part of the root of the belief of the Christian Science denomination... here's some reading material for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Science

http://christianscience.com


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## stringmusic (Dec 22, 2010)

> I've logically worked my way to the conclusion that nobody knows for sure whether your god exists... that includes me and it includes you.



So you choose to put your faith somewhere else, why?


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## stringmusic (Dec 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Which is another debatable point.  The Bible does indeed say that we're made in the image and likeness of God.  However, you believe your god is perfect, right?  If that's the case, how can the image and likeness of something perfect be imperfect?


free will, we choose to be imperfect.


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## davidstaples (Dec 22, 2010)

stringmusic said:


> free will, we choose to be imperfect.



But if the image and likeness of something perfect is perfect, how can it choose to be imperfect?  Free will isn't a complete response as even with free will a perfect being shouldn't be able to choose to be imperfect.


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## stringmusic (Dec 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> But if the image and likeness of something perfect is perfect


Do we know that? A kid is made in the image/likeness of the parents, but they are not the parents in full.




> , how can it choose to be imperfect?  Free will isn't a complete response as even with free will a perfect being shouldn't be able to choose to be imperfect.


This is where Gods love comes into play.
God loves the creation(us) He made. If He would have made us perfect, love could not be involved, He granted free will to human beings so that love is not forced.


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## Thor827 (Dec 22, 2010)

mattech said:


> You know, if you were baptist you could have all the chocolate cake you want.



And while you eat it everyone else in the congregation will talk about how fat you're getting and what you wore to church that day.......


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

First off Jesus ain't gonna walk up to me, I'm gonna meet Him in the air at the rapture.  That's how I'll know.

All you nonbelievers will know that He is Jesus because all of us believers won't be here on the forum for you to pick and grin at.

So at the rapture we'll all know who He is.

So my answer would be no, if someone walked up to me today and said he was Jesus the Son of God I wouldn't believe him.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> I've logically worked my way to the conclusion that nobody knows for sure whether your god exists... that includes me and it includes you.



You can speak for yourself on that one, I do know my God exists, and that the Bible is true. Even archeoligists prove that on a daily basis. Yes, not everything has been proven yet, but it will be. For example there are seashells in ohio from the flood and there is positive proof the temple that was destroyed is under the mosque. It took years to prove but the proof is there now.

I can't see gravity nor oxygen, nor hydrogen, nor carbon monoxide nor vitamin d from the sun but it's there.  We are just now figuring out how herbal medicine is beneficial to us and yet it says in that it the OT, nobody just didn't get it....so on and so on.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> So you absolutely, positively, without a doubt think you will know who he when you see him.  What if some of you disagree?




We will know...and we know we will know.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> if you need proof of Jesus when he comes... YOU never knew him.. those truely saved will know



Right on!!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Well then why didn't people believe him when he was around the first time?  He performed miracles right in front of them and they still didn't believe.



Why? 
You've read the Bible? You sure you had a good teacher?
Wasn't it prophesied in the OT that some people would be blinded to who He was?
Here's a hint....the Jews.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Some did. Some didn`t. Just as they do now.



Yup!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> Or perhaps we just like picking on you guys.  It's a good place to come for a laugh.  I'm no more scared of what's in Matthew 24 than I would be if you told me Santa Claus wasn't real.




You don't think we know that? It says in the Bible that we will be mocked and persecuted you can at least take that scripture to be true can't you? 

And we know you aren't scared, but we also know you should be. We aren't blind ya know.


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## Nicodemus (Dec 22, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> You don't think we know that? It says in the Bible that we will be mocked and persecuted you can at least take that scripture to be true can't you?
> 
> And we know you aren't scared, but we also know you should be. We aren't blind ya know.





Ma`am, they won`t be pickin` on you, or mockin` you, in here. Rest assured of that.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

dominantpredator said:


> Yes. As a matter of fact, we are all very special to God. We are made in the image of our father.



You are special, you are a prince and I am a princess because our father is a King....hallelujah to the lamb of God!!!!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Nicodemus said:


> Ma`am, they won`t be pickin` on you, or mockin` you, in here. Rest assured of that.



Thank you my bro, I ain't askeert!


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## dominantpredator (Dec 28, 2010)

davidstaples said:


> No they haven't.  They have offered their opinion that the Bible is true but they have not *proven* it to be true.



Artifacts have been found, dated, and catalogued that support the biblical texts. The Holy Bible is the greatest history book known to exist. The part you have a hard time grasping is whether or not God had a hand in any of it and if Jesus Christ is the son of God. Many of the world's best scholars will admit the events are true. Just because your father was /is a southern baptist preacher doesn't matter at all. It ain't about your daddy.....it is about you. I too was also raised a southern baptist. I eat chocolate cake...I drink beer too. That ain't gonna send anyone to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. There is only one sin that is not forgiven. Look everyone doubts and I will be the first to say that alot of old school preachers think everyone is destined for hellfire and brimstone. Church is for sinners, not saints. I will pray for you, I will also pray for the idiots who said you can't eat chocolate cake. God will knock on your door, all you have to do is let him in.


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## dominantpredator (Dec 29, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> You are special, you are a prince and I am a princess because our father is a King....hallelujah to the lamb of God!!!!



Yeah...c'mon.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 3, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> You are special, you are a prince and I am a princess because our father is a King....hallelujah to the lamb of God!!!!



I got one for you too! Hallelujah!


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## 1handkneehigh (Jan 12, 2011)

If god created us in his image and we call him father, does that make all of us son of god and not just jesus?  I can now call myself son of god.


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