# How many Christians were put to death in the Colosseum?



## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

Interesting story:

Were Christians ever tortured and killed in the Colosseum?

The answers seems to be no. The original sources on the amphitheatre are very few, and a connection between Christian martyrdom and the Colosseum still has to be found, though the Church for many years has credited the story of Christian martyrs finding death in the arena (something similar happened, but it was in Gallia).
On the subject I prefer to quote the Catholic Encyclopedia on the net. Entry: Colosseum, or ... Coliseum

THE COLISEUM AND THE MARTYRS
Pope St. Pius (1566-72) is said to have recommended persons desirous of obtaining relics to procure some sand from the arena of the Coliseum, which, the pope declared, was impregnated with the blood of martyrs. The opinion of the saintly pontiff, however, does not seem to have been shared by his contemporaries. The practical Sixtus V (1585-90) was only prevented by death from converting the Coliseum into a manufactory of woollen goods.
In 1671 Cardinal Altieri regarded so little the Coliseum as a place consecrated by the blood of Christian martyrs that he authorized its use for bullfights. Nevertheless from the middle of the seventeenth century the conviction attributed to St. Pius V gradually came to be shared by the Romans. A writer named Martinelli, in a work published in 1653, put the Coliseum at the head of a places sacred to the martyrs. Cardinal Carpegna (d. 1679) was accustomed to stop his carriage when passing by the Coliseum and make a commemoration of the martyrs. But it was the act of Cardinal Altieri, referred to above, which indirectly effected a general change of public opinion in this regard. A pious personage, Carlo Tomassi by name, aroused by what he regarded as desecration, published a pamphlet calling attention to the sanctity of the Coliseum and protesting against the intented profanation authorized by Altieri. The pamphlet was so completely successful that four years later, the jubilee year of 1675, the exterior arcades were closed by order of Clement X; from this time the Coliseum became a sanctuary.

At the instance of St. Leonard of Port Maurice, Benedict XIV (1740-58) erected Stations of the Cross in the Coliseum, which remained until February, 1874, when they were removed by order of Commendatore Rosa. St. Benedict Joseph Labre (d. 1783) passed a life of austere devotion, living on alms, within the walls of the Coliseum. "Pius VII in 1805, Leo XII in 1825, Gregory XVI in 1845, and Pius IX in 1852, contributed liberally to save the amphitheatre from further degradation, by supporting the fallen portions with great buttresses" (Lanciani). Thus at a moment when the Coliseum stood in grave danger of demolition it was saved by the pious belief which placed it in the category of monuments dearest to Christians, the monuments of the early martyrs. Yet, after an exhaustive examination of the documents in the case, the learned Bollandist, Father Delehave, S.J., arrives at the conclusion that there are no historical grounds for so regarding it (op. cit.). In the Middle Ages, for example, when the sanctuaries of the martyrs were looked upon with so great veneration, the Coliseum was completely neglected; its name never occurs in the itineraries, or guide-books, compiler for the use of pilgrims to the Eternal City. The "Mirabilia Romae", the first manuscripts of which date from the twelfth century, cites among the places mentioned in the "Passions" of the martyrs the Circus Flaminius ad pontem Judaeorum, but in this sense makes no allusion to the Coliseum. We have seen how for more than a century it served as a stronghold of the Frangipani family; such a desecration would have been impossible had it been popularly regarded as a shrine consecrated by the blood, not merely of innumerable martyrs, but even of one hero of the Faith. The intervention of Eugenius IV was based altogether on patriotism; as an Italian the pope could not look on passively while a great memorial of Rome's past was being destroyed. "Nam demoliri urbis monumenta nihil aliud est quam ipsius urbis et totius orbis excellentiam diminuere."

Thus in the Middle Ages no tradition existed in Rome which associated the martyrs in any way with the Coliseum; it was only in the seventeenth century and in the manner indicated, that it came to he regarded with veneration as a scene of early Christian heroism. Indeed, little attention was paid by the Christians of the first age to the actual place of a martyr's sufferings; the sand stained with his blood was, when possible gathered up and treasured as a precious relic, but that was all. The devotion of the Christian body centred wholly around the place where the martyr was interred. Father Delehaye calls attention to the fact that although we know from trust-worthy historical sources of the execution of Christians in the garden of Nero, yet popular tradition preserved no recollection of all event so memorable (op. cit., 37). The Acts of Roman Martyrs, it is true, contain indications as to the places where various martyrs suffered: in amphitheatro, in Tellure, etc. But these Acts are often merely pious legends of the fifth, sixth, and following centuries built up by unknown writers on a feast reliable historical facts. The decree formerly attributed to Pope Gelasius (492-96) bears witness to the slight consideration in which this class of literature was held in the Roman Church; to read it in the churches was forbidden, and it was attributed to unknown writers, wholly unqualified for their self-imposed task (secundum antiquam consuetudinem, leguntur, quia et eorum qui conscripsere nomina penitus ignorantur, et ab infidelibus et idiotis superflua aut minus apta quam rei ordo fuerit esse putantur.-- Thiel. Epist. Rom. Pont., I, 458).
The evidence, therefore, which we possess in the Roman Acts in favour of certain martyrs suffering in the Coliseum is, for these reasons among others, regarded by Father Delehaye as inconclusive. He does not deny that there may have been martyrs who suffered in the Coliseum, but we know nothing on the subject one way or the other. (Je ne veux pas nier qu'il y ait eu des martyrs de l'amphithéâtre Flavien; mais nous ne savons pas non plus s'il y en a eu, et en tout cas leurs noms nous sont inconnus.--Op. cit., 37.) It is, of course, probable enough that some of the Christians condemned ad bestias suffered in the Coliseum, but there is just as rnuch reason to suppose that they met their death in one of the other places dedicated to the cruel amusements of imperial Rome; for instance, in the Circus Flaminius, the Gaianum, the Circus of Hadrian, the Amphitheatrum Castrense, and the Stadium of Domitian. Even as regards St. Ignatius of Antioch, the evidence that he was martyred in the Coliseum is far from decisive, the terms employed by St. John Chrysostom and Evagrius in reference to this matter convey no precise meaning (Delehaye, op. cit. 43). The same is true of the term used by Theodoret in reference to the death of St. Telemachus, who sacrificed his life to put an end to the bloody spectacles which, as late as the early fifth century, took place in Rome. There is no reason to doubt the fact of the heroic death of St. Telemachus, but there is, on the other hand, no clear proof that its scene was the Coliseum. Theodoret, the only writer who records the incident, says that it happened eis to stadio (in the stadium), a different place from the Coliseum.

MAURICE M. HASSET

Transcribed by Joseph P. Thomas


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## centerpin fan (Dec 28, 2011)

Does it really matter _where_ they were killed?


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

Sure it does. Shouldn't the teachings be accurate? To heck with facts as long as some Pope wants it his way.

The the story is interesting. I happened upon it as I was reading how many people were never actually fed to the lions.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 28, 2011)

bullethead said:


> I happened upon it as I was reading how many people were never actually fed to the lions.



I'm sure that is very comforting to the people who _were_ fed to lions.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 28, 2011)

Statements like this are what I consider important:



bullethead said:


> There is no reason to doubt the fact of the heroic death of St. Telemachus ...



I don't think St. Telemachus was all that concerned about where it happened.

Maybe some were killed on Tuesday instead of Wednesday.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Statements like this are what I consider important:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can comb through the incidentals... or not. I found it interesting and was always told that the Colosseum was the place it all happened. Turns out it was not.


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## bullethead (Dec 28, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm sure that is very comforting to the people who _were_ fed to lions.



I doubt they care now.


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> You can comb through the incidentals... or not. I found it interesting and was always told that the Colosseum was the place it all happened. Turns out it was not.



Told by who? Did you read it in the bible?


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Told by who? Did you read it in the bible?



wheeeeeeeeeew


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## stringmusic (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> wheeeeeeeeeew


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Told by who? Did you read it in the bible?



Learned about it in sunday school.


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## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Learned about it in sunday school.



I had an atheist Latin teacher in high school tell the class about this while discussing Roman culture.  Not that it changes things, but I think it is a common misunderstanding.

I learned something here.  Not sure it matters, though.  Putting folks to death for religious reasons is bad no matter where it happens.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I had an atheist Latin teacher in high school tell the class about this while discussing Roman culture.  Not that it changes things, but I think it is a common misunderstanding.
> 
> I learned something here.  Not sure it matters, though.  Putting folks to death for religious reasons is bad no matter where it happens.



Early civilizations and especially the Romans killed people for the sake of killing. Religious affiliation was just a bonus. If you search for reasons why Christians were persecuted, one story has it that a Roman Emperor at the time set fire to Rome (on purpose) and BLAMED the Christians. The Emperor and reasons are found in the story.


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## JB0704 (Dec 29, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Early civilizations and especially the Romans killed people for the sake of killing. Religious affiliation was just a bonus. If you search for reasons why Christians were persecuted, one story has it that a Roman Emperor at the time set fire to Rome (on purpose) and BLAMED the Christians. The Emperor and reasons are found in the story.



Nero?  

It must have been strange a few hundred years later when it became the official religion of the empire.


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## bullethead (Dec 29, 2011)

Yep!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 3, 2012)

Pliny the Younger had some interesting stuff to write about how he was dealing with Christians.   

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/pliny.html

Pliny the Younger was governor of Pontus and Bithynia from 111-113 CE. 

"Meanwhile, in the case of those who were denounced to me as Christians, I have observed the following procedure: I interrogated these as to whether they were Christians; those who confessed I interrogated a second and a third time, threatening them with punishment; those who persisted I ordered executed"  Pliny

In this letter, Emporer Trajan agrees that Pliny should continue killing Christians.   Wonder how he dealt with Christians?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 3, 2012)

The Passion of St Perpetua.    

from Wikipedia....

Perpetua and Felicity (died 7 March 203) are Christian martyrs of the 3rd century. Perpetua (born in 181) was a 22-year old married noble, and a nursing mother. Her co-martyr Felicity, an expectant mother, was her slave. They suffered together at Carthage in the Roman province of Africa.

Looks like they were making up stories about martyrs fighting animals in front of crowds by the early 3rd century.   lol


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 3, 2012)

Well, that should put a quick death to this thread.   

Love providing actual historical facts for you guys to learn by!

Bandy


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## pstrahin (Jan 3, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Well, that should put a quick death to this thread.
> 
> Love providing actual historical facts for you guys to learn by!
> 
> Bandy



Thanks.  I love to learn.  And I mean that sincerely.


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## stringmusic (Jan 3, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Well, that should put a quick death to this thread.
> 
> Love providing actual historical facts for you guys to learn by!
> 
> Bandy


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## bullethead (Jan 3, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Well, that should put a quick death to this thread.
> 
> Love providing actual historical facts for you guys to learn by!
> 
> Bandy



NOBODY ever said Christians (or anybody) were NEVER victims of animals. In fact many prisoners(including Christians) were draped in animal hides and were ordered to be attacked by dogs until ripped apart. It happened often, just not at the Colosseum like originally thought. WHICH IS WHAT THE OP STATED!!!!!

Like so often happens when thinking your swooping in with the end all definitive death blow, your a day late and a dollar short and bring information that while informative and true, has nothing to do with the actual OP post. 

I am pleased to learn Pliney the Younger writes for earlychristianwritings.com. Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't it a Pope and not until the 17th century, that credited the Colosseum with Christians being fed to the lions...albeit incorrectly!

Here is some more ACTUAL HISTORICAL FACTS you can add to your stash: 

"The first documented case of imperially-supervised persecution of the Christians in the Roman Empire begins with Nero (37-68). In 64 A.D., a great fire broke out in Rome, destroying portions of the city and economically devastating the Roman population. Nero was rumoured at the time of having intentionally started the fire himself. In his Annals, Tacitus states that "to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace" (Tacit. Annals XV, see Tacitus on Jesus). By implicating the Christians for this massive act of arson, Nero successfully capitalized on the already-existing public suspicion of this religious sect and, it could be argued, exacerbated the hostilities held toward them throughout the Roman Empire.[citation needed] Forms of execution used by the Romans included burning in the tunica molesta, systematic murder, crucifixion, and the feeding of Christians to lions and other wild beasts. Tacitus' Annals XV.44 record: "...a vast multitude, were convicted, not so much of the crime of incendiarism as of hatred of the human race. And in their deaths they were made the subjects of sport; for they were wrapped in the hides of wild beasts and torn to pieces by dogs, or nailed to crosses, or set on fire, and when day declined, were burned to serve for nocturnal lights."

From New Advent (Catholic Encyclopedia) The Coliseum and the Martyrs:
...

Thus in the Middle Ages no tradition existed in Rome which associated the martyrs in any way with the Coliseum; it was only in the seventeenth century and in the manner indicated, that it came to he regarded with veneration as a scene of early Christian heroism. Indeed, little attention was paid by the Christians of the first age to the actual place of a martyr's sufferings; the sand stained with his blood was, when possible gathered up and treasured as a precious relic, but that was all. The devotion of the Christian body centred wholly around the place where the martyr was interred. Father Delehaye calls attention to the fact that although we know from trust-worthy historical sources of the execution of Christians in the garden of Nero, yet popular tradition preserved no recollection of all event so memorable (op. cit., 37). The Acts of Roman Martyrs, it is true, contain indications as to the places where various martyrs suffered: in amphitheatro, in Tellure, etc. But these Acts are often merely pious legends of the fifth, sixth, and following centuries built up by unknown writers on a feast reliable historical facts. The decree formerly attributed to Pope Gelasius (492-96) bears witness to the slight consideration in which this class of literature was held in the Roman Church; to read it in the churches was forbidden, and it was attributed to unknown writers, wholly unqualified for their self-imposed task (secundum antiquam consuetudinem, leguntur, quia et eorum qui conscripsere nomina penitus ignorantur, et ab infidelibus et idiotis superflua aut minus apta quam rei ordo fuerit esse putantur.-- Thiel. Epist. Rom. Pont., I, 458). The evidence, therefore, which we possess in the Roman Acts in favour of certain martyrs suffering in the Coliseum is, for these reasons among others, regarded by Father Delehaye as inconclusive. He does not deny that there may have been martyrs who suffered in the Coliseum, but we know nothing on the subject one way or the other. (Je ne veux pas nier qu'il y ait eu des martyrs de l'amphithéâtre Flavien; mais nous ne savons pas non plus s'il y en a eu, et en tout cas leurs noms nous sont inconnus.--Op. cit., 37.) It is, of course, probable enough that some of the Christians condemned ad bestias suffered in the Coliseum, but there is just as much reason to suppose that they met their death in one of the other places dedicated to the cruel amusements of imperial Rome; for instance, in the Circus Flaminius, the Gaianum, the Circus of Hadrian, the Amphitheatrum Castrense, and the Stadium of Domitian. Even as regards St. Ignatius of Antioch, the evidence that he was martyred in the Coliseum is far from decisive, the terms employed by St. John Chrysostom and Evagrius in reference to this matter convey no precise meaning (Delehaye, op. cit. 43). The same is true of the term used by Theodoret in reference to the death of St. Telemachus, who sacrificed his life to put an end to the bloody spectacles which, as late as the early fifth century, took place in Rome. There is no reason to doubt the fact of the heroic death of St. Telemachus, but there is, on the other hand, no clear proof that its scene was the Coliseum. Theodoret, the only writer who records the incident, says that it happened eis to stadio (in the stadium), a different place from the Coliseum.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 4, 2012)

bullethead said:


> NOBODY ever said Christians (or anybody) were NEVER victims of animals. In fact many prisoners(including Christians) were draped in animal hides and were ordered to be attacked by dogs until ripped apart. It happened often, just not at the Colosseum like originally thought. WHICH IS WHAT THE OP STATED!!!!!



I thought you were the OP?   Or do you always refer to yourself in the 3rd person in these forums?

Calm down, breath, don't get so defensive and angry!   lower case letters will do, Bullet.

You do realize that Pliny the Younger was an early 2nd century ruler, correct?    I just added that to show that Christians were being killed by RULERS very early in the Christian era.    The St Perpetua account is universally accepted as early 3rd century, and I shared it to show that Christians were being killed by animals,  in front of crowds, (for entertainment and punishment) well before the middle ages.


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## bullethead (Jan 4, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I thought you were the OP?   Or do you always refer to yourself in the 3rd person in these forums?
> 
> Calm down, breath, don't get so defensive and angry!   lower case letters will do, Bullet.
> 
> You do realize that Pliny the Younger was an early 2nd century ruler, correct?    I just added that to show that Christians were being killed by RULERS very early in the Christian era.    The St Perpetua account is universally accepted as early 3rd century, and I shared it to show that Christians were being killed by animals,  in front of crowds, (for entertainment and punishment) well before the middle ages.



Original Post, not in the 3rd person.

Christians and every other religion/race and creed  suffered the same fate. The ORIGINAL POST(OP) was not stating that Christians dying by animals never happened. It was about events that were once thought to have happened at the Colosseum actually did not. I am well aware of who Pliney the Younger was. Maybe you can gather some numbers of Christian mailmen that were bitten by animals along their routes and if the pets owners were traceable back to any 2nd century rulers....
The martyrs may continue to this very day!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Jan 4, 2012)

My apologies, Bullet.   I misunderstood....


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## bullethead (Jan 4, 2012)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> My apologies, Bullet.   I misunderstood....


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## mtnwoman (Jan 4, 2012)

Then they need to delete it from world history books, because it was in there when I was in high school, that Christians were lion food.

Possibly the Romans just bragged about what they would do to Christians if they didn't 'straighten up'.....sounds like something a 'popular' military group of men would proclaim...and actually some Christian haters would certainly enjoy today, if they could get away with it. 

However they did torture and kill Christ for nothing, guess they got braggin' rights on that too, eh?


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## bullethead (Jan 4, 2012)




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## bullethead (Jan 4, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Then they need to delete it from world history books, because it was in there when I was in high school, that Christians were lion food.
> 
> Possibly the Romans just bragged about what they would do to Christians if they didn't 'straighten up'.....sounds like something a 'popular' military group of men would proclaim...and actually some Christian haters would certainly enjoy today, if they could get away with it.
> 
> However they did torture and kill Christ for nothing, guess they got braggin' rights on that too, eh?



The term back in the Roman days was "ad bestias" or "to the beasts". The History books were right (read the above articles). The point is not IF it happened but where it happened. History books are always being re-written. As we find out things were not as we once thought them to be the books get changed. BELIEVE me, after buying 4 years worth of history books for my Son's college major because the previous ones are out of date and contain incorrect text, I can attest to them constantly changing.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 4, 2012)

bullethead said:


> NOBODY ever said Christians (or anybody) were NEVER victims of animals. In fact many prisoners(including Christians) were draped in animal hides and were ordered to be attacked by dogs until ripped apart. It happened often, just not at the Colosseum like originally thought. WHICH IS WHAT THE OP STATED!!!!!
> 
> Like so often happens when thinking your swooping in with the end all definitive death blow, your a day late and a dollar short and bring information that while informative and true, has nothing to do with the actual OP post.
> 
> ...


What is interesting is that the Christians were not persecuted for being Christian. But falsely for burning the city. They were generally left alone. They were not liked because in a world of many so called gods, god for rain, god for fertility, etc, they were blamed for anything such as a drought. They would say that it was because of those Christians that made the rain god mad so he withheld our rain. Even when someone such as Polycarp was killed, he was pleaded with, to just say the oath, it's only words they would say. In other words, they dealt patiently with this issue in many cases. We have letters regarding trial cases where those refusing to give hail to a Ceasar as a god, were given much time in hopes that they change their mind. Things like this interest me.


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## bullethead (Jan 4, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> What is interesting is that the Christians were not persecuted for being Christian. But falsely for burning the city. They were generally left alone. They were not liked because in a world of many so called gods, god for rain, god for fertility, etc, they were blamed for anything such as a drought. They would say that it was because of those Christians that made the rain god mad so he withheld our rain. Even when someone such as Polycarp was killed, he was pleaded with, to just say the oath, it's only words they would say. In other words, they dealt patiently with this issue in many cases. We have letters regarding trial cases where those refusing to give hail to a Ceasar as a god, were given much time in hopes that they change their mind. Things like this interest me.



Interesting stuff for sure!


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## ambush80 (Jan 4, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> What is interesting is that the Christians were not persecuted for being Christian. But falsely for burning the city. They were generally left alone. They were not liked because in a world of many so called gods, god for rain, god for fertility, etc, they were blamed for anything such as a drought. They would say that it was because of those Christians that made the rain god mad so he withheld our rain. Even when someone such as Polycarp was killed, he was pleaded with, to just say the oath, it's only words they would say. In other words, they dealt patiently with this issue in many cases. We have letters regarding trial cases where those refusing to give hail to a Ceasar as a god, were given much time in hopes that they change their mind. Things like this interest me.



You know what's worse than submit or die?   Submit or burn forever.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 5, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You know what's worse than submit or die?   Submit or burn forever.


 Good point. The burn belief is offensive. Funny, this thread is about Christian persecution. But history shows that the christians were the ones doing the persecuting. I need to verify this quote from Hitler. He said after killing the Jews that he only did what the christians had been doing all along  EDIT, I can not find the source of the Hitler quote. Rather than delete it, since I have seen it somewhere, whether the source is correct or not, I don't know, I will leave it as is with this note.


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## bullethead (Jan 5, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Good point. The burn belief is offensive. Funny, this thread is about Christian persecution. But history shows that the christians were the ones doing the persecuting. I need to verify this quote from Hitler. He said after killing the Jews that he only did what the christians had been doing all along  EDIT, I can not find the source of the Hitler quote. Rather than delete it, since I have seen it somewhere, whether the source is correct or not, I don't know, I will leave it as is with this note.



Could possibly be either of these two...

At a Nazi Christmas Celebration in 1926 Hitler said: "Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews ... The work that Christ started but could not finish, I -- Adolf Hitler -- will conclude."

In Mein Kampf he wrote: "Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's Work."


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## Jeff Phillips (Jan 5, 2012)

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2841/were-christians-really-thrown-to-the-lions


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2012)

I saw a bumper sticker the other day.

"So many Christians, so few lions."


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 5, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> I saw a bumper sticker the other day.
> 
> "So many Christians, so few lions."



Your not kidding are you? We [I struggled with that we] are supposed to be the light of the world.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your not kidding are you? We [I struggled with that we] are supposed to be the light of the world.



It was on an old, blue Volvo parked on the street in Little Five Points.


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## stringmusic (Jan 5, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Your not kidding are you? We [I struggled with that we] are supposed to be the light of the world.



I think it was supposed to be an "atheist" bumper sticker about feeding Christians to lions. They were probably driving a honda element.


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## JB0704 (Jan 5, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> It was on an old, blue Volvo parked on the street in Little Five Points.



I work right up the road from little five points.  You see a little bit of everything down there.

I do think the person who has that sticker might be reading a bit into stereotypes.  There are a good many of us "hippie" Christians out there (grace, love, mercy, etc.).  I guess it is our fault for not being as vocal as the militant ones.


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## ambush80 (Jan 5, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I work right up the road from little five points.  You see a little bit of everything down there.
> 
> I do think the person who has that sticker might be reading a bit into stereotypes.  There are a good many of us "hippie" Christians out there (grace, love, mercy, etc.).  I guess it is our fault for not being as vocal as the militant ones.



You're doing a fine job of representin' here


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## JB0704 (Jan 5, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You're doing a fine job of representin' here



Thanks, man!


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## mtnwoman (Jan 6, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I work right up the road from little five points.  You see a little bit of everything down there.
> 
> I do think the person who has that sticker might be reading a bit into stereotypes.  There are a good many of us "hippie" Christians out there (grace, love, mercy, etc.).  I guess it is our fault for not being as vocal as the militant ones.



That's definately me, too. I'm a Jesus freak, or an old hippie for Jesus.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 6, 2012)

bullethead said:


> The term back in the Roman days was "ad bestias" or "to the beasts". The History books were right (read the above articles). The point is not IF it happened but where it happened. History books are always being re-written. As we find out things were not as we once thought them to be the books get changed. BELIEVE me, after buying 4 years worth of history books for my Son's college major because the previous ones are out of date and contain incorrect text, I can attest to them constantly changing.



I know, I agree.

So really we don't know what happened anytime in history. Yet it is forced on us just like evolution was in science.  Some day we will have all the answers, if at that time we're even interested in it.


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## bullethead (Jan 6, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I know, I agree.
> 
> So really we don't know what happened anytime in history. Yet it is forced on us just like evolution was in science.  Some day we will have all the answers, if at that time we're even interested in it.



The problem is that at the time events are recorded, before they become history, they are most often written by the "Victors" or are a "One Sided Story" and embellished to suit by the original writers. Only later, often much much much later, is enough evidence gathered to either back up or refute what was recorded.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 7, 2012)

bullethead said:


> The problem is that at the time events are recorded, before they become history, they are most often written by the "Victors" or are a "One Sided Story" and embellished to suit by the original writers. Only later, often much much much later, is enough evidence gathered to either back up or refute what was recorded.



I certainly can agree with that.

I guess that is one reason that I am a Christian, I have quizzled a lot of salvation rendering scripture. I have not quizzled every verse in the bible....just the things that will
deliver me. A few verses, like how the promise of our Christ in the OT was predicted and came to pass. Like the old temple was destroyed and remains under the mosque. A virgin can  deliver a baby.
It's the gospel that I have tested and found to be true in my heart. The rest of the story I research only on forums...etc. 

It's my own salvation that I'm concerned about and be able to witness that to be true so as to witness to others.

I can't prove talking donkeys, or fiery chariots, even though I believe my God is powerful enough to do those things.  Those are not the things that will allow me to be forever with Jesus and my loved ones who have gone before me in His name. To me the entire bible is totally leading up to the resurrection, and after that the proof of the resurrection. So I keep it short and sweet....that's all I HAVE to believe to be a forever Jesus child.


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I certainly can agree with that.
> 
> I guess that is one reason that I am a Christian, I have quizzled a lot of salvation rendering scripture. I have not quizzled every verse in the bible....just the things that will
> deliver me. A few verses, like how the promise of our Christ in the OT was predicted and came to pass. Like the old temple was destroyed and remains under the mosque. A virgin can  deliver a baby.
> ...



See for me it is that OT prophesy....
Did it actually come true? OR was the NT written by some very talented authors(obviously it is a collection of stories by many authors) that wrote stories based off of the OT. Almost fiction based from fact? They took what they knew what was history, what was religion and what was prophesy and wrote about it. Out of all the various writing that told many different and varying stories, only the ones that "fit" with OT prophesy made the final cut. The others didn't. Did they not make it because they were not true or was it because they were true but told a very different story that didn't jive with OT prophesy?
Christians see those OT prophesies as coming true and yet the Jews say no way, didn't happen yet. To me it sounds like exactly what goes on within religious circles today. There is a common belief and then someone still believes the majority of it but thinks a little differently. They get a few followers to go along with the "new" thought and soon it becomes another denomination. Was the NT written by or more likely assembled by a group of men that were not happy with the old Judaism ways and wanted to branch off to their own system? Did the OT prophesy come true or did the writings make it come true only in story to further the cause?


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## mtnwoman (Jan 7, 2012)

bullethead said:


> See for me it is that OT prophesy....
> Did it actually come true? OR was the NT written by some very talented authors(obviously it is a collection of stories by many authors) that wrote stories based off of the OT. Almost fiction based from fact? They took what they knew what was history, what was religion and what was prophesy and wrote about it. Out of all the various writing that told many different and varying stories, only the ones that "fit" with OT prophesy made the final cut. The others didn't. Did they not make it because they were not true or was it because they were true but told a very different story that didn't jive with OT prophesy?
> Christians see those OT prophesies as coming true and yet the Jews say no way, didn't happen yet. To me it sounds like exactly what goes on within religious circles today. There is a common belief and then someone still believes the majority of it but thinks a little differently. They get a few followers to go along with the "new" thought and soon it becomes another denomination. Was the NT written by or more likely assembled by a group of men that were not happy with the old Judaism ways and wanted to branch off to their own system? Did the OT prophesy come true or did the writings make it come true only in story to further the cause?



Actually that is a good argument and also a very popular view in denying who Christ was and denying biblical prophesy about Christ.

There are many many reasons that I believe that the gospel is true. 

How many people would have to be involved to make that prophesy come true, not even including the disciples, or believers? Just imagine. How many people/verses would it take to prove that I was the Christ? more than just a few? How would that many people be in cahoots together?  So where's the proof that Christ is not who He says He is? I find there is much more proof that Christ IS who He says He is, than proof that He is not....I mean other than by supernatural means?

I could name a few  but there are way too many things that someone/some people would have to put in place for Jesus to fit the picture coincidentally from prophecy in the OT to fulfillment in the NT.

One of the ones that I take to be true, is why did Peter deny Christ before the crusifixtion? and then go to willing to die for Him after the crusifixtion.....it was the resurrection of Christ that convinced Him. Wouldn't you think Peter of all people would be in on the hoax? 

I am convinced in my heart by the Holy Spirit and I believe if you don't have that, then you wouldn't really know.  You may claim to have been a Christian at one time, but I believe that if you really believed that you'd be convicted of knowing the truth. If in fact you weren't truly saved then you would not be able to discern that, and it would be quite easy to deny Christ.  I cannot deny Him, not because my grandmaw said so, nor my mama or daddy, I know so because I let Him come into my heart/soul/spirit and He does everything He says He will do. Especially give me peace beyond all my understanding. When I cannot grieve for a loved one, then I know it's His peace that sustains.
My brother once ask me why couldn't he grieve over our mama, I said well Christ gives you peace beyond your understanding to deal with it. Why, when I believe she's walking on the shores of heaven, would I wish for her to be sick here on earth. I will see her again.

Here is a site that lists some of the things that can hardly be refuted about Christ.  Isn't sooner or later a magician exposed? and it wouldn't take 2000+yrs?
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/christ.htm


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Actually that is a good argument and also a very popular view in denying who Christ was and denying biblical prophesy about Christ.
> 
> There are many many reasons that I believe that the gospel is true.
> 
> ...




Outside of scripture please show me where Christ is who says he is( remember he never wrote a single thing) and did what he said he did. Outside of scripture where does it show prophesy is fulfilled?

Christ, a real person, sure!

Son of God, highly unlikely.

Born of a Virgin, highly unlikely.

Miracles, highly unlikely.

Arose from the dead, highly unlikely

Ascended into the skies/heaven, highly unlikely.

All those witnesses never wrote about it as it happened. There were accurate historical facts recorded before during and after and no mention of miracles and ascension and rising from death. ALL these things get "recorded" at least 30 YEARS after Christs death.
At the time it was not a hoax as Jesus was a real person. He was not the first to make such claims and he was not the last. A few people many years later made him into the figurehead for a religion. A "new" religion that is based off of what they initially were brought up to believe but now have the perfect foundation to build what they want/need changed. There is a reason that even though those NT writings are named but the actual authors remain anonymous. Might have been One or Two doing all the writing under anonymity. It is no secret that some of the most talented writers in the world wrote under false names. 

Your reply of me claiming to once be a Christian is the typical Christian response. I just didn't do it right. Right? It is inconceivable for a believer to comprehend that someone was once equally as strong in the beliefs and was able to go away from it. You will believe what is in your thoughts over what someone is telling you in first person from their experience. I didn't get out of it what you did so I obviously was "less Christian" to start.  It is yet more ammo to convince me of my current beliefs.


Without a cut/paste internet site mudslinging fiasco I will just say that I have sites that Do refute those things about Christ and show how OT prophesy was and still is not fulfilled. A quick search will provide anyone willing to take the time to read them. Most won't because it goes against what they want and need to believe.


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## bullethead (Jan 7, 2012)

Imagine taking some of the writings of our most talented fiction authors(pick a subject...vampires...zombies...terrorists....political scandal, love, religion........etc), not use their names, and 30-70 years later assemble a "best of" conglomeration to tell the same tales. It would sell like hot chocolate at a Friday night football game in December. Especially if you do not include any stories that refute the happenings. if you search through historical facts and see that none of this really happened you will be more inclined to take it for what it is......One Heck of an interesting piece of work. But use only that book to prove the tales inside the book and it has GOT to be true. The places were real, the people were real, the names might be real but the stories were embellished or just plain fabricated for the sole benefit of the flow of the book and what the publisher wanted as the end result.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Outside of scripture please show me where Christ is who says he is( remember he never wrote a single thing) and did what he said he did. Outside of scripture where does it show prophesy is fulfilled?
> 
> Christ, a real person, sure!
> 
> ...



I'm sorry I did not mean to imply that you personally were less than a believer at one time than me. I do believe once saved always saved, sometimes we don't even know it. It took me 30 yrs being seperated from God to 'see' that I was truly saved at 12yrs old, even though I didn't understand anything beyond that point. Just simple believing in Jesus and accepting what He gave me, and I never didn't believe that, though I doubted most everything else in the bible to be any more than just stories leading me to that one point. I've come a long way since rededication and hindsight has surely set my belief in stone. It's the 'miracle' in me that makes me believe, irregardless of everything else in the bible that has be refuted. In my soul I have had doubts, in my spirit I have no doubts, even though I may fail at expressing the love in my heart that I have for someone who died so that I might not perish...nothing else really matters to me, whether it can be proven or not.

And as far as what I want or need to believe in is nothing more than what most of us feel towards someone or something. I never thought that I would get to the point in my life where I didn't need to love another man/companion....which I think most of us need and want.  Jesus is the only true love that I can always count on, He's perfect....He comforts me, He loves me, He holds me to His breast in my worst times, He carries me across the raging waters, and in the dry desert of lonliness He gives me sweet flowing water that soothes my soul. No man has ever done that for me.....I'm not saying I haven't had a few good men in my life, I have, and I'm not dissing the others who were not so great including male a female friends, family who are not perfect and unable to accept me no matter what. If we get 80% good and 20% bad in our relationships on this earth, we are very blessed. 
Jesus to me is 100% faithful to me and my needs and sometimes my wants, depending on what He deems is the best for me since He is my hightower and knows what's coming my way.  I don't need proof, I'm not looking for proof, I have the proof hidden in my heart, Jesus is real enough to me to dance with Him, to talk outloud to Him, to sup with Him.

The word of God is a  two edged sword, dividing asunder my soul and spirit.....in my soul (me, myself and I) I can question or be mad at God and ask Him to help my unbelief....but in my spirit, the part of me that is attached to God and absent from this world, questions nothing.

Highly unlikely doesn't mean impossible.....maybe science wise, maybe not.  All of the things you listed above could possibly happen or be true.

ie...Children all the time are or can be born of a virgin...ie surrogate mothers. That was considered a miracle then, and can be a miracle now to a mother who cannot carry her own child. There are people who have been cured from stage 4 cancer and even the doctors call it a miracle.
Ascending towards the skies was once thought to be impossible, but now it is not.  Men can even fly like birds which was once deemed impossible......it was always possible we just didn't know how it was possible.

Ramlin' Rose....


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Imagine taking some of the writings of our most talented fiction authors(pick a subject...vampires...zombies...terrorists....political scandal, love, religion........etc), not use their names, and 30-70 years later assemble a "best of" conglomeration to tell the same tales. It would sell like hot chocolate at a Friday night football game in December. Especially if you do not include any stories that refute the happenings. if you search through historical facts and see that none of this really happened you will be more inclined to take it for what it is......One Heck of an interesting piece of work. But use only that book to prove the tales inside the book and it has GOT to be true. The places were real, the people were real, the names might be real but the stories were embellished or just plain fabricated for the sole benefit of the flow of the book and what the publisher wanted as the end result.



Does that mean our history or science books are fiction? Even if just a few things in the books are incorrect, does that mean that nothing else in those books are true and accurate to the way they exactly happened? There's very little out of either science or math or history that I personally need to apply to my life today, that I need to be concerned about how it exactly got to this point....ok water is h2o....do I have to know that to drink of the water?  Do I have to know the entire process of how an airplane flies or who actually took flight first before I get on an airplane? I'd hate to think I had to analyze everything in sight before I believed it or used it or breathed it or swam on top of. I just don't need that proof, it is what it is. 

I mean honestly I get on an airplane in faith that it will fly me from place to place rather than an unexpected nose dive side stop. All I have is faith in it, I don't have proof for sure, I'll get to where I'm going. If we had to have proof no one would take a flight. 

So it is mostly by faith that I believe, and that's all God asks us to do, is to have faith.


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## dawg2 (Jan 8, 2012)

bullethead said:


> You can comb through the incidentals... or not. I found it interesting and was always told that the Colosseum was the place it all happened. Turns out it was not.



I never heard that.  Who told you they all died in a colosseum?  Some died on a cross, some died on a sword, some died without their head, some were burned, etc.  I am sure some did die in the arena for enteratinment along with non-christians, but not all of them.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 8, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> I never heard that.  Who told you they all died in a colosseum?  Some died on a cross, some died on a sword, some died without their head, some were burned, etc.  I am sure some did die in the arena for enteratinment along with non-christians, but not all of them.



x2...


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I'm sorry I did not mean to imply that you personally were less than a believer at one time than me. I do believe once saved always saved, sometimes we don't even know it. It took me 30 yrs being seperated from God to 'see' that I was truly saved at 12yrs old, even though I didn't understand anything beyond that point. Just simple believing in Jesus and accepting what He gave me, and I never didn't believe that, though I doubted most everything else in the bible to be any more than just stories leading me to that one point. I've come a long way since rededication and hindsight has surely set my belief in stone. It's the 'miracle' in me that makes me believe, irregardless of everything else in the bible that has be refuted. In my soul I have had doubts, in my spirit I have no doubts, even though I may fail at expressing the love in my heart that I have for someone who died so that I might not perish...nothing else really matters to me, whether it can be proven or not.
> 
> And as far as what I want or need to believe in is nothing more than what most of us feel towards someone or something. I never thought that I would get to the point in my life where I didn't need to love another man/companion....which I think most of us need and want.  Jesus is the only true love that I can always count on, He's perfect....He comforts me, He loves me, He holds me to His breast in my worst times, He carries me across the raging waters, and in the dry desert of lonliness He gives me sweet flowing water that soothes my soul. No man has ever done that for me.....I'm not saying I haven't had a few good men in my life, I have, and I'm not dissing the others who were not so great including male a female friends, family who are not perfect and unable to accept me no matter what. If we get 80% good and 20% bad in our relationships on this earth, we are very blessed.
> Jesus to me is 100% faithful to me and my needs and sometimes my wants, depending on what He deems is the best for me since He is my hightower and knows what's coming my way.  I don't need proof, I'm not looking for proof, I have the proof hidden in my heart, Jesus is real enough to me to dance with Him, to talk outloud to Him, to sup with Him.
> ...



I can't stop you from your beliefs. What makes them special is they are unique to the individual. Unfortunately your beliefs differ greatly from even the next firm believer. And theirs from the next and so on....
No two people believe EXACTLY the same. Within the extremes of the beliefs of people you will find many that have made a decision of what they thought they knew as truth to slowly erode into being not true for them anymore. In my case it wasn't as easy as waking up one morning and my complete thought process changed. It was years and years of trying to make a case for what I believed in to be true only to find out that the more and more I looked into it, the less truth I found. 


The way those "miracles"  are described in the Bible are not the way those things happen today. They certainly are not miracles if they are similar and now so common.

Outside of scripture no one wrote down anything about any of those things happening. Only within the covers of a book did those things take place. 

I know you had quite an interesting life and knew a lot of people. Everyone knows the guy that brags about his accomplishments and if you want to know how great he is, all you have to do is ask him. No matter where this guy is at(parking lot after church, barber shop, bar, kindergarten play...) at the drop of a hat he finds any excuse to tell his tales. His fish are always longer, antlers on HIS buck always have more points, car is faster, he is tougher, he was the best athlete on the field.......but in reality, outside of his own mind, none of it is ever true. You talk to someone that was involved in any of those activities with him and nobody remembers any of those accomplishments, let alone feats of greatness. Outside of his tales the high school yearbook lists him as "equipment manager", his car is an '98 Honda and while he caught a nice fish he fails to tell the part where it was at a children's derby for kids 10 and under, but he took his 3yr old daughter and the only time she touched the fishing rod was when he had her hold it so he could net "HIS" monster!!!
When you want to promote someone the stories gave to be more grand than the next guys. That is A-OK until someone checks on those stories and outside of the source they do not exist.


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## bullethead (Jan 8, 2012)

dawg2 said:


> I never heard that.  Who told you they all died in a colosseum?  Some died on a cross, some died on a sword, some died without their head, some were burned, etc.  I am sure some did die in the arena for enteratinment along with non-christians, but not all of them.



Dawg, take a step back and see the big picture. It is no secret that many Christians, along with every other religion, race and creed, died horrible deaths at the hands of the Romans. I am not disputing that for even a second. ALL I am saying is that there is now evidence that no Christians were fed to lions at the Colosseum as was once thought to be the place where many were. I never said all died in THE Colosseum and no where else. (You do realize that the Colosseum was an actual place and there were many other Stadiums/Amphitheaters where these acts took place??)


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## mtnwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I can't stop you from your beliefs. What makes them special is they are unique to the individual. Unfortunately your beliefs differ greatly from even the next firm believer. And theirs from the next and so on....
> No two people believe EXACTLY the same. Within the extremes of the beliefs of people you will find many that have made a decision of what they thought they knew as truth to slowly erode into being not true for them anymore. In my case it wasn't as easy as waking up one morning and my complete thought process changed. It was years and years of trying to make a case for what I believed in to be true only to find out that the more and more I looked into it, the less truth I found.
> 
> 
> ...



We(believers) may all have different interpretations of many things in the Bible. But I dare to betcha that most everyone here believes John 3:16, to me that is the heart of the gospel. Whether predestined or not, that is one verse that most of us believe.

And I hope you are not insinuating that my testimony of my life is exaggerated....it is not. I ask God for many years why did He, if I indeed belonged to Him, that He let all these things manifest in my life.  I would've had a much better life had I gone the way in which I started in Christ. I see other people who have never done or gone thru the things that I have and I had a problem about that, WHY ME? But when I finally went to a girls camp/prison I knew then why I went thru what I went thru. As a testamony for others.

Don't doubt for a moment that I have not experienced all the things I have expressed here and that have not experienced them and turn around and bare my soul to people I don't even know....a lot of it is quite embarrassing.

But I have experienced my salvation full circle and smelled like mostly smoke for many years, danging over the pit of hades.

So I hope and pray that by your post you do not think I am bosting, I am not. Actually, why would you think the things I've admitted to would be bosting.
I'd rather say I was saved at  12 and God never let me fall that deep into sin for 40 horrifying years.

Besides I have pictures to all those 'big fish' you are referring, too. And besides that. hunters/fishermen have a reputation for exaggerating, I guess you know that by your post.

If anyone else thinks I'm  bragging about anything, please pm me and if need be, I'll keep my witnessing to myself.


Thanks,
Annie


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## mtnwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Dawg, take a step back and see the big picture. It is no secret that many Christians, along with every other religion, race and creed, died horrible deaths at the hands of the Romans. I am not disputing that for even a second. ALL I am saying is that there is now evidence that no Christians were fed to lions at the Colosseum as was once thought to be the place where many were. I never said all died in THE Colosseum and no where else. (You do realize that the Colosseum was an actual place and there were many other Stadiums/Amphitheaters where these acts took place??)



Well as much as you believe all that history/science has to say, you'd better call and tell them that you have evidence that not one Christian was fed to the lions. And you wonder why everybody including nonChristians believe what we believe. We've been fed so much bull for so many years that none of us know what is and isn't true.


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## bullethead (Jan 9, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> We(believers) may all have different interpretations of many things in the Bible. But I dare to betcha that most everyone here believes John 3:16, to me that is the heart of the gospel. Whether predestined or not, that is one verse that most of us believe.
> 
> And I hope you are not insinuating that my testimony of my life is exaggerated....it is not. I ask God for many years why did He, if I indeed belonged to Him, that He let all these things manifest in my life.  I would've had a much better life had I gone the way in which I started in Christ. I see other people who have never done or gone thru the things that I have and I had a problem about that, WHY ME? But when I finally went to a girls camp/prison I knew then why I went thru what I went thru. As a testamony for others.
> 
> ...



If I thought you were bragging or boasting I would not beat around the bush about it. When I said I knew you had quite an interesting life I based it off of what you share on here. And from that, I am sure you have met the "guy" I went on to describe after that.


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## bullethead (Jan 9, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Well as much as you believe all that history/science has to say, you'd better call and tell them that you have evidence that not one Christian was fed to the lions. And you wonder why everybody including nonChristians believe what we believe. We've been fed so much bull for so many years that none of us know what is and isn't true.



I have to say this.......OH MY GOD!
For probably the tenth time in this thread, AND CERTAINLY THE LAST.........I NEVER EVER EVER NEVER ONCE SAID THAT I HAVE EVIDENCE THAT NO CHRISTIANS WERE FED TO THE LIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOR did I ever say NO Christians were ever fed to lions. THEY WERE! But it did not take place at the Colosseum. It happened at other Roman stadiums, just no evidence that it happened at the Colosseum.

It behooves me how something that is written in plain English and in black and white can be read and the reader cannot comprehend it.....wait, yes I can........it explains a lot about how the Bible is taken.......


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## mtnwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I have to say this.......OH MY GOD!
> For probably the tenth time in this thread, AND CERTAINLY THE LAST.........I NEVER EVER EVER NEVER ONCE SAID THAT I HAVE EVIDENCE THAT NO CHRISTIANS WERE FED TO THE LIONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! NOR did I ever say NO Christians were ever fed to lions. THEY WERE! But it did not take place at the Colosseum. It happened at other Roman stadiums, just no evidence that it happened at the Colosseum.
> 
> It behooves me how something that is written in plain English and in black and white can be read and the reader cannot comprehend it.....wait, yes I can........it explains a lot about how the Bible is taken.......



Whateva!


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## mtnwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> If I thought you were bragging or boasting I would not beat around the bush about it. When I said I knew you had quite an interesting life I based it off of what you share on here. And from that, I am sure you have met the "guy" I went on to describe after that.



Ok, I just didn't know why you'd bring it up...seems as though you were comparing me to the 'guy' that does make up stuff....probably only good stuff about himself, though, eh?

But I'll take your word for it.


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## bullethead (Jan 9, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> Ok, I just didn't know why you'd bring it up...seems as though you were comparing me to the 'guy' that does make up stuff....probably only good stuff about himself, though, eh?
> 
> But I'll take your word for it.



No comparison at all. I got the feeling from your posts that you have not led a sheltered life and had the opportunities to meet guys or people like I described.

We cool!!!!


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## mtnwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

bullethead said:


> We cool!!!!



Otay


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