# Hospice / Deathbed



## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

I would like to know if anyone who believes there is no "god" has ever spent time speaking with a hospice nurse?  If you never have, then you should.

I will tell you what I know and almost every hospice nurse will tell you.  This is what they see patients do at the end with regularity REGARDLESS OF DENOMINATION (and even atheists):

1) Speak with loved ones who are dead.  Almost every one of them interact with a DECEASED loved one.  Not a currently living but deceased.  Why would they interact with only deceased?

2) Speak of angelic beings.  Many describe in detail a being in the room or over their bed.

3) Almost every single one while laying on the bed reaches up in the air to someone or something.  They usually describe something as beautiful.

These three items are merely a tiny portion of what happens to most on their deathbed, but seem to be the regularly occurring experiences.

Some may just say they are hallucinations.  But it wouldn't make sense to brush it off as merely a hallucination.  They all (regardless of age, race, or religion) have the same commonalities.  One nurse even said that NONE of her patients ever die alone if they are coherent.  There is someone or something that ALWAYS comes for them.

See, when the body is dying, the brain knows it and all resources are then dedicated to saving the brain.  This occurs even in traumatic injury.  The brain is to be protected.  It is the "King" on the chess board.  

Now we can disagree all day long about which religion is best or right.  It doesn't matter.  Because one thing the nurses will tell you, is these beings that come don't ask if you were baptized, if you believe in Jesus, if you are Baptist / Mormon, etc., but they do come.

The brain defaults into it's most primitive basic instinct at the end: SURVIVAL.  All assets are dedicated to the brain for survival, so it makes no sense whatsoever to generate energy into frivolous hallucinations.  It would be akin to you being in the midst of a terrible car crash with only seconds to survive.  Instead of taking time to save yourself, you calmly take out a pack of cigarettes, get your lighter out, light up a smoke and then resume corrective action.

I am currently dealing with a loved one who is on their deathbed and not expected to live another day.  It leaves a lot of questions when you see what they experience.  But one thing it does do, is assure you there truly is something else at death.  It isn't finality.  It is just another door we go through and most assuredly, someone or something does hold your hand as you go through it.


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## Keebs (Jun 17, 2011)

I've heard those story's too from one of the hospice nurses that attended my Daddy.
 For your situation.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

I am very sorry for your situation dawg. 

My grandmother died in my parents home. I also experience several strokes with her. I'd repeatedly visit her at the hospital and she would talk about my grandfather, her husband, who had been dead for at least 15 years. She talked about neighbors from where she used to live, her dead sisters.. everyone that wasn't there. I would sit beside her bed and watch her talk to people that weren't there. 

I would also say there's no way you, or any hospice nurse can say that someone ALWAYS comes to get people. Maybe they see it often.

What I saw was her mind wandering. Going back to things that were way back in the files. And since her brain was debilitated, it was projecting these thoughts as actually happening. She had several strokes and nearly recovered 100% from those times.

It's comforting to many to believe that they're speaking with dead relatives, that there are angels coming to take them away to a place where we'll see them again. No doubt.

If what you say is correct (maybe it is, I don't know) that all "resources" are trying to save the brain in those last minutes or seconds does that mean that it's got to be enough resources for normal brain activity? Someone on hospice isn't dieing in a split second. They are on hospice due to rapidly failing health. Their resources are nearly gone by the time already when hospice starts. I think there is hardly evidence to say that their bodies have enough resources to work at a normal level.

I can't even think about how being on my deathbed would feel. It's got to be crazy. Crazy enough to make me see or feel things that may not be there. Whether baptist, mormon or atheist, we've all heard about a god of some kind. Decreased brain activity, knowing death is there... Hallucinations of some kind seem much more likely to me...


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## Jranger (Jun 17, 2011)

Prayers sent for your loved one, you, and your family...

I've seen this many times over my life as I've lost nearly everyone in family thus far, with the exception of my mom. For all (where I was present at their passing), there was talk of loved ones from the past coming to greet them and help them pass into the next realm whatever or wherever that may be. Maybe it is just a comfort for them in their time of passing, who knows. I find it strange though that so many from the past would come by to visit just before their passing. My dad spoke of it days before his death. He claimed to see his grandfather and other beings coming to his hospice room to help him let go. If nothing else, I found comfort in it.


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

Jranger said:


> Prayers sent for your loved one, you, and your family...
> 
> I've seen this many times over my life as I've lost nearly everyone in family thus far, with the exception of my mom. For all (where I was present at their passing), there was talk of loved ones from the past coming to greet them and help them pass into the next realm whatever or wherever that may be. Maybe it is just a comfort for them in their time of passing, who knows. I find it strange though that so many from the past would come by to visit just before their passing. My dad spoke of it days before his death. He claimed to see his grandfather and other beings coming to his hospice room to help him let go. If nothing else, I found comfort in it.


That seems to be the common them: Deceased relatives or friends appearing.  It seems odd the overwhelming majority see deceased loved ones.   A couple of the hospice nurses I have spoken with  said they were convinced "someone or something" came for the people before they died.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

If that was the case did the people come for my grandmother after her strokes because they "thought" it was the end for her, but it turned out not to be? They should know that it wasn't going to be the end for her and waited for the real thing, if they were actually going to lead her out.

My grandfather also told us about dieing during a heart attack and he talked to god himself. He asked for one more Christmas with his family and he got it. Again, he had just had a heart attach... brains don't function well or correctly under those circumstances.

I know I'm not going to change your mind. Just telling you about my experiences.


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2011)

It is no different than the vivid realistic dreams we experience in our lives. We fly and do things we could never do otherwise. We hold in depth detailed conversations with people we have never seen in our lives and in places we have never been. Our brains gather and store things we will never consciously know about. How and when and why it accesses the info is anyones guess.

I have no doubt that on out death bed our brains are on overdrive. I wonder how many people that have NEVER heard of any religion speak of angels and such?


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

I wonder how many people have never heard of any religion...


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## WTM45 (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> I am currently dealing with a loved one who is on their deathbed and not expected to live another day.  It leaves a lot of questions when you see what they experience.



May you find strength and peace in the days to come.  I know firsthand how tough it can be to watch.

Not every passing is easy nor is it always as described above.


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## j_seph (Jun 17, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I can't even think about how being on my deathbed would feel. It's got to be crazy. Crazy enough to make me see or feel things that may not be there. Whether baptist, mormon or atheist, we've all heard about a god of some kind. Decreased brain activity, knowing death is there... Hallucinations of some kind seem much more likely to me...


 I can't even imagine being in the above position, knowing that things I am seeing will only be for a moment and that all I have heard throughout my living in this temporary place was true. Thank God I am saved and will get to continue on this journey for eternity.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

Odd that she would know so much. You hear about people waking up mentally during their surgey.. Maybe her sense of hearing was up during surgery and she heard what they were saying? I've been out for surgery once... and I was O-U-T.

One more thing to add, and I'm not equating dogs to people in any rude or insensitive way. I had a 20 year old dalmation as a kid that had to be put to sleep when I was about 18. That dog went off the deep end the last few days of her life. She'd pace through the garage making odd noises. Her mind was going. Her body couldn't support proper brain function. Of course I have no idea what was going through her mind, but it wasn't normal dog thoughts. Oddly enough, my sister tried to get the demons out of her...


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> It is no different than the vivid realistic dreams we experience in our lives. We fly and do things we could never do otherwise. We hold in depth detailed conversations with people we have never seen in our lives and in places we have never been. Our brains gather and store things we will never consciously know about. How and when and why it accesses the info is anyones guess.
> 
> I have no doubt that on out death bed our brains are on overdrive. I wonder how many people that have NEVER heard of any religion speak of angels and such?


Sure, we have vivid dreams.  However, the point you are missing:  The dying are interacting with other deceased people.


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## Dub (Jun 17, 2011)

Best wishes and prayers to you,  daw2, during this difficult time.  I hope that your loved on is able to take the next step into God's embrace with courage and peace.

The thing that really helped us during a similar time was having our minister available a great deal.  His prayers and guidance were of great value.


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## TripleXBullies (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Sure, we have vivid dreams.  However, the point you are missing:  The dying are interacting with other deceased people.



Not NECESSARILY.. IMO my grandmother interacted with the thought of other deceased people. Not their soul coming back to see her. Her mind was in such a dellusional state that old memories came out.. Drugs can do the same thing to the brain. I don't really believe anyone here would say that mind altering drugs are putting them in touch with gods or deceased people... Although in some culutures the shaman or other holy men do just this to contact the spirits.


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not NECESSARILY.. IMO my grandmother interacted with the thought of other deceased people. Not their soul coming back to see her. Her mind was in such a dellusional state that old memories came out.. Drugs can do the same thing to the brain. I don't really believe anyone here would say that mind altering drugs are putting them in touch with gods or deceased people... Although in some culutures the shaman or other holy men do just this to contact the spirits.



I never said "souls" were coming back.

Not to belittle your single experience with your grandmother.  But have you ever discussed it with about 15-20 people that do this for a living?  People that spend entire days with the dying, all year long? I personally have spoken to the caregivers over the years.  The caregivers' experiences overwhelmingly point to ineraction wih deceased people.  Not saying they do not "hallucinate" or the experience is different than with others with brain damage (i.e.- stroke victims) but one of the three items I listed above are almost always seen at the end. 

FWIW, some of the caregivers were not religious but sincerely believe based on their daily experience, there is more than simply liquid morphine dreams or oxycontin influenced experiences.  The reason I say that is not all of the patients are on narcotics.  There is a commonality that has yet to be explained.


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## ambush80 (Jun 17, 2011)

I think that you will see what you expected to see.  If you were a Plains Indian you might see The Great Spirit or maybe a token animal guide.  There's a lot of literature on the subject of those phenomena.  If it is a secular piece, it will give clinical, biological explanations.  If it is a religious piece, it will give a spiritual perspective.  Again, I think your experience is what you expect it will be like, particularly from your sub-conscious.

I hope you and your family will find grace, peace and comfort during this difficult time.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I think that you will see what you expected to see.  If you were a Plains Indian you might see The Great Spirit or maybe a token animal guide.  There's a lot of literature on the subject of those phenomena.  If it is a secular piece, it will give clinical, biological explanations.  If it is a religious piece, it will give a spiritual perspective.  Again, I think your experience is what you expect it will be like, particularly from your sub-conscious.
> 
> I hope you and your family will find grace, peace and comfort during this difficult time.


What he said


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## dawg2 (Jun 17, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I think that you will see what you expected to see.  If you were a Plains Indian you might see The Great Spirit or maybe a token animal guide.  There's a lot of literature on the subject of those phenomena.  If it is a secular piece, it will give clinical, biological explanations.  If it is a religious piece, it will give a spiritual perspective.  Again, I think your experience is what you expect it will be like, particularly from your sub-conscious.
> 
> I hope you and your family will find grace, peace and comfort during this difficult time.


I am not talking about reading a book.  I am talking about sitting across the table from caregivers and hearing what they have seen from a terminal patient.  Caregivers that are both religious and ones that are not.

What do you think your experience will be?

I will tell you what caregivers said about atheists.  One raised his hands up in the air.  He described angelic beings.  Others saw deceased loved ones and angelic beings.  Kind of odd if they don't believe in the after life.  Kind of flies in the face of your logic.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Kind of odd if they don't believe in the after life.


 Indeed!  Even just as profound is eternity's door opening up when death knocks, and a lost sinner _knows _his fate...

.... Voltaire cried out to Jesus, breathing his last. Here's his life (and death):

*Volatire*, the noted French [atheist] and one of the most fertile  and talented writers of his time, used his pen to retard and demolish  Christianity. 
Of Christ, Voltaire said: "Curse the wretch!" He once  boasted, "In twenty years Christianity will be no more. My single hand  shall destroy the edifice it took twelve apostles to rear." 
Shortly  after his death the very house in which he printed his foul literature  became the depot of the Geneva Bible Society (God has an amazing sense of humor ). 

The nurse who attended  Voltaire said: "For all the wealth in Europe I would not see another  infidel die." 
The physician, Trochim, waiting up with Voltaire at his  death said that he cried out most desperately:
 "I am  abandoned by God and man! I will give you half of what I am worth if you  will give me six months' life. Then I shall go to (hades), and you will go  with me. 
O Christ! O Jesus Christ!"


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## CAL (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg,my sister had what was her third open heart operation.She went straight to life support and was in and out of it for 30 days till she died.I have a copy of her writings where she was on life support and had seen our mother and farther,grandparents too.She wrote and described them as angles flying around her bed.Her writings are hardly readable as she was on life support at the time and could not see what she was writing.

I have a friend who is a born again Christian.He believes very strongly that Christians will transcend in literally the blink of an eye.We never really die only our body that holds our spirit dies.He also believes there are three levels of Heaven too.

Please express to your Mrs.my deep thoughts,prayers and concern for her feelings is such trying times.


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## Capt Quirk (Jun 17, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Not NECESSARILY.. IMO my grandmother interacted with the thought of other deceased people. Not their soul coming back to see her. Her mind was in such a dellusional state that old memories came out.. Drugs can do the same thing to the brain. I don't really believe anyone here would say that mind altering drugs are putting them in touch with gods or deceased people... Although in some culutures the shaman or other holy men do just this to contact the spirits.


There is some medical explanations, and there are other explanations. I've seen people who have been terminal, or just near death experiences. However you want to try to explain it, it is almost impossible to discount the possibilities. My wife is a nurse, and seen it too.

And, as you stated, there are other cultures with their own experiences, which brings to question, how can anybody be 100% positive of which deity and afterlife is being experienced. It isn't like we, as living mortals, have ever been invited to Yewah's Facebook page, or Allah's, or Odin's, or any of the other thousands of deities that humans have had over the centuries. But just because it hapens, people are certain it is _their God_, and _their religion_ is the right one, the only true one.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 17, 2011)

*[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]*A few hours before entering his eternal Home, Dwight L. Moody caught a glimpse of the glory awaiting him.  Awakening from sleep, Moody said, 
"Earth recedes.  Heaven opens before me.  If this is death, it is sweet!  There is no valley here.  God is calling me, and I must go!"  
Moody's son was standing at his bedside and said, "No, no father.  You are dreaming."  
Dr. Moody soon replied, "No, I am not dreaming.  I have been within the gates:  I have seen the children's faces."  
After a short time elapsed, Dr. Moody spoke once more, 
"This is my triumph;  this is my coronation day!  It is glorious!"[/FONT]*


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## bullethead (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Sure, we have vivid dreams.  However, the point you are missing:  The dying are interacting with other deceased people.



In my dreams I have talked to and spent time with deceased relatives.On  a death bed what would be different?  I would imagine dreams, people with Alzheimers and people on their death bed are very similar. My great grandmother had people in her house hiding in closets and under beds for years before Alzheimers had a name. These were people were both still alive and in their 50"s(yet she saw them as children)and others that were dead for 25+ years. She tried to turn flashlights with porch light switches and would invite us children in for a snack then chase us 10 minutes later like she didn't know us.


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## atlashunter (Jun 17, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> Sure, we have vivid dreams.  However, the point you are missing:  The dying are interacting with other deceased people.



You don't know that any more than someone who says they are interacting with dead people in their dreams. Even an atheist would be likely to dwell on those they loved in their final moments. That's hardly surprising.


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## ambush80 (Jun 18, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> I am not talking about reading a book.  I am talking about sitting across the table from caregivers and hearing what they have seen from a terminal patient.  Caregivers that are both religious and ones that are not.
> 
> What do you think your experience will be?
> 
> I will tell you what caregivers said about atheists.  One raised his hands up in the air.  He described angelic beings.  Others saw deceased loved ones and angelic beings.  Kind of odd if they don't believe in the after life.  Kind of flies in the face of your logic.



This is answered by this:



Capt Quirk said:


> There is some medical explanations, and there are other explanations. I've seen people who have been terminal, or just near death experiences. However you want to try to explain it, it is almost impossible to discount the possibilities. My wife is a nurse, and seen it too.
> 
> And, as you stated, there are other cultures with their own experiences, which brings to question, how can anybody be 100% positive of which deity and afterlife is being experienced. It isn't like we, as living mortals, have ever been invited to Yewah's Facebook page, or Allah's, or Odin's, or any of the other thousands of deities that humans have had over the centuries. But just because it hapens, people are certain it is _their God_, and _their religion_ is the right one, the only true one.



Besides, what was that atheist's cultural background?  Were they indoctrinated with Bible stories when they were children?  That stuff sticks in one's craw, especially if they get 'im while they're young, despite all the efforts they might have made in adulthood to reverse the indoctrination.  Maybe they got scared and started "hedging their bets".



atlashunter said:


> You don't know that any more than someone who says they are interacting with dead people in their dreams. Even an atheist would be likely to dwell on those they loved in their final moments. That's hardly surprising.



...or while they're awake, or awake and interacting with dead, then resurrected people.  

Regardless, in times like those, comfort is welcome no matter what the origin and I would never tell someone in that condition that they were wrong even if I thought they were.


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## holton27596 (Jun 22, 2011)

Seen quite a few folks die, aint never seen one talking to the dead. have watched several die in pain and agony, because thier religion w pild not let them take measures to alleviate the pain. Just proved the opposite of a belief in God to me.


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## dawg2 (Jun 22, 2011)

holton27596 said:


> Seen quite a few folks die, aint never seen one talking to the dead. have watched several die in pain and agony, because thier religion w pild not let them take measures to alleviate the pain. Just proved the opposite of a belief in God to me.


That would be a man-made imposition: no pain relief.  Has absolutely nothing to do with a "god."


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## atlashunter (Jun 22, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> That would be a man-made imposition: no pain relief.  Has absolutely nothing to do with a "god."



Finally something we can agree on.


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## Six million dollar ham (Jun 24, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> I am currently dealing with a loved one who is on their deathbed and not expected to live another day.  It leaves a lot of questions when you see what they experience.  But one thing it does do, is assure you there truly is something else at death.  It isn't finality.  It is just another door we go through and most assuredly, someone or something does hold your hand as you go through it.



Sorry you're having to go through that.  

Oxycodone and morphine in high doses carry large incidences of side effects.  That's all I have to say about that.


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## saltysenior (Jul 4, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> I would like to know if anyone who believes there is no "god" has ever spent time speaking with a hospice nurse?  If you never have, then you should.
> 
> I will tell you what I know and almost every hospice nurse will tell you.  This is what they see patients do at the end with regularity REGARDLESS OF DENOMINATION (and even atheists):
> 
> ...



just went thru that w/ my mom......hospice[the greatest] nurses described their experiences and a few mentioned event #'s 1 and 3 often....however, a well educated one said, and swore, that she herself observed ''some who came to get the dying person''..  she admitted it is a ''blurry''type vision,but that other nurses have had the same moments...........if anyone does not know what to do about a memorial gift, i highly recommend a donation to hospice..


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## dawg2 (Jul 4, 2011)

saltysenior said:


> just went thru that w/ my mom......hospice[the greatest] nurses described their experiences and a few mentioned event #'s 1 and 3 often....however, a well educated one said, and swore, that she herself observed ''some who came to get the dying person''..  she admitted it is a ''blurry''type vision,but that other nurses have had the same moments...........if anyone does not know what to do about a memorial gift, i highly recommend a donation to hospice..



I have heard some of the nurses describe some interesting moments like you described and some of them were NOT religious.

I agree, donate to hospice, they are a great service and they have a tremendously difficult job.


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## CAL (Jul 4, 2011)

Just has to take special people to deal with dieing people all day every day.The word "hospice" means dieing to me.I don't envy their jobs at all.


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## JuliaH (Jul 5, 2011)

Dawg2, first let me say that you are in a place that is very special... and if you stayed by your loved one through this last journey you are indeed blessed by your deeds and actions and love... 

I generally stay away from these kinds of conversations... memories are sweet but there is also sorrow in them, and I am not up to arguing with anyone... but you are correct. The death of a loved one is a special time and a completion, if you will, of a life here on this earth. 

When my dad died, I was not with him... there was sorrow and a huge sense of loss, but since I was not with him I was not able to walk with him to that final door. 

When my child was sick, he went thru lots of moods, thoughts, anger, everything but peace.... I was there with him through all that. But in those last hours, he said a few things I will never forget, personal just for me and him...  and he got quiet. There came a peace to the house... a peace like I have never known. At times in those last days he would look beyond everything. No words were spoken, but they were not needed. He "saw" things in his spirit that no one could have seen with him. At the time I can tell you that there was no medication. None was needed that last day. But the peace in that last day was incredible, and then he was gone. 

When another young man who called me mom was in trouble, it was difficult to stand by him at times. He did everything wrong.... drinking to drown his troubles, doing whatever kinds of drugs that he could. No one could stop him. I had commited him to places that were supposed to help him. Those only worked for a while. I knew the path he followed would finally win over all and that path took him first to the ICU (he drove my car head on into a tree.... he was angry that day) where he stayed in a coma for weeks... it was far from a peaceful time for him and for me. I could see the struggle in his features. Later he told me that he had terrible, vivid dreams and he could not wake up. There was no peace for him during that time, only struggles. 

You would think that he would be different when he finally got well... NOPE! Same ole...same ole... The crazy part was that deep inside, when he was himself, there was a sensitive and fine person, and on his death bed that person resurfaced. I was there for him in the last 24 hours of his life too. His natural family was having a hard time with it and they called me. I was his other mom.... this time in his room it was different. I knew personally the struggles of his other time.... this was nothing like that. That same wonderful peace was there, again. How could I not recognize it.... as he slipped quietly and calmly into his last breaths, you could have cut the peace in that room with a knife... and I said goodbye, came home and all was well. 

Hospice was involved with both of these young men. They handled the "details". But they were not there in those final hours. Just me and one young man and then me and one more...

My mom came to live with me in 1994. She was a stroke victim. Big stroke, big troubles. She could not talk, she could not walk, she was completely paralyzed on one side. But she was still my fiesty mom!!! Yes, there was fun and lots of life in her. As the years went on we had more and more visits to the ER in the night usually. She continued to have strokes, little ones, developed heart trouble and in the last 3 or so years I saw life winding down for her. 

Finally hospice was brought in... and they did their thing. Mom was always a fighter, a survivor, a fiesty sort. Maybe that's where I get some of my own willfulness...   As we came close to that final time, you who are reading may think... here she goes again, talking about that special peacefulness.... but no, I cannot. It was not there. She fought death with all the strength in her body and mind. Yes, it was quiet, but not the same. I don't know why. I wish it had been for her like for the young men, but it was not. When she left me I was tired, exhausted. She was too. 

There is a difference folks. It is nothing you can understand from a book or from even what dawg and I and others may explain to you. You have to be there. You have to know and allow your own soul and spirit to follow the path they walk along until the path is blocked to you and only you remain. 

I am sure that some die in agony and pain, though I have not had to go through that with anyone. I was not with him when one of my brothers experienced a painful, horrible passing.... 

I am sure that some die who want with all their strength NOT to follow the path they are on. I have been there for that. I am sure that a special peace that passes all, and I do mean ALL, understanding, goes ahead of some to prepare the way, and stays with the family to light the way. I have experienced that.... twice. 

I can tell you that there is a GOD who is in charge during those times. I can tell you that in losing all of my family but one brother that major changes happen, changes we can neither experience for ourselves nor participate in except as a watcher. But I do know, from my own experience that it is not us, nor the dying, that is in charge during those times....

Dawg2.... and others who have "been there" you have truly walked thru the valley of the shadow of death and you know things others cannot even imagine. The 23rd Psalm is true... every word of it. May God truly and richly bless you for being willing to walk this difficult and special path with your loved ones. Don't let anyone take away from you the special knowledge that you have witnessed.... 

Julia


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 5, 2011)

Julia - I mean the following with all due respect. If anything comes off harsh, please just ask me to explain what I mean, because I don't mean to be harsh at all.

I can't imagine going through all of the death you just spoke of. I don't like being around it at all. Never have.

I'm missing what type of differentiation you're trying to describe between your sons and your mother. Why do you think she went out without peace?

As far as your second son goes. I have experience with people seeming to be fine and sensitive people but doing things that seem exactly to the contrary. Repeatedly. To me, that's a perfect example of what a human brain is capable of. ESPECIALLY when it's not firing on all cylinders. The people I have experience with aren't acting in those ways out of choice. NO ONE in their right mind would do those sorts of things. Right? I see that as being very similar to what happens when the brain is on its way out. It can do things that make no sense and have no real provocation or reason for happening. 

When I think back to what I felt as GOD moving around me or being present, I now attribute to intense emotion. Emotions are contagious so everyone can feel them. The pastors and other people around me in church used to tell me that God wasn't a god of emotion... yet everyone continued to work off of emotion every day.


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## JuliaH (Jul 5, 2011)

Thank you for your sensitive reply  

I don't like it either....  no one does. The sense of loss, especially with a child, whew... all I can say is it never goes away. 

Mom was an intense fighter. I don't know what fear she had as we never spoke of it... and after the stroke she could not tell me...  but I saw her more than once "come back to us" in the ER after a particularly bad episode. She fought death with the ferocity of William in Braveheart. I do know that the sense of peace my son and my "adopted" son had might have had something to do with acceptance too. They were not afraid. They did not fight it once their own decision was made to allow it to happen. I believe God had His hand on them. There was no fear. With those young men, there was an active choice and both made that hard choice with a clear head, knowing the road they traveled here would end...

Your last sentence may have the key for you. God IS a God of emotion and it can be very intense. Now I am not talking about getting all worked up in church, or not. I am talking about something deep inside the person, a personal thing. We cannot worship God with our minds only.... our worship is cold and empty that way and becomes just a thing we do on Sunday... We also cannot worship with only our emotion. It can also become distorted. 

The decisions that these two young men made came from deep inside them. One, my natural child, made his decision knowing full well what the consequenses of it would be. He was surrounded by those who loved him, his doctors, and he made it in a peaceful way, yet with strength that we don't often get to see. He knew more than any of the rest of us, that it was all going to be okay. I supported him fully in his decision. I had to. There was no other choice. 

On the other hand my mom fought to her last breath. I don't know all of what the differences in them were, but I can tell you what I have seen and heard. 

Please also keep in miind that faith in God is important and all these Christian denominations have their opinions and their doctrines but they only have a piece of the entire puzzle. Am I a Christian?  Yes, but I might not be the "normal" sort of person. I attend church often with my hubby, but I am not there every time the door is open. 

Through all of this I have been taught by the Man in Charge, if you will, what it means to love, what it means to accept a lot of things that we argue about to no avail, what it means to be true to Him and to myself 

Again, thanks for your non-argumentative response. It has been a special privilege to attempt to answer you 

Julia




TripleXBullies said:


> Julia - I mean the following with all due respect. If anything comes off harsh, please just ask me to explain what I mean, because I don't mean to be harsh at all.
> 
> I can't imagine going through all of the death you just spoke of. I don't like being around it at all. Never have.
> 
> ...


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 5, 2011)

Assuming there is an afterlife at all and which afterlife you go to depends on something about what you do while you're alive....

Do you think your mom fought because she was going down a road she didn't want to go on? I obviously don't know her so I'm not assuming anything, but a bad road was my first thought when you mentioned that.


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## JuliaH (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi,

I don't know, and would not presume to ever figure that out   It is bigger than me and my knowledge.... all I can share with you is what I know and have experienced... 

Julia




TripleXBullies said:


> Assuming there is an afterlife at all and which afterlife you go to depends on something about what you do while you're alive....
> 
> Do you think your mom fought because she was going down a road she didn't want to go on? I obviously don't know her so I'm not assuming anything, but a bad road was my first thought when you mentioned that.


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## Capt Quirk (Jul 5, 2011)

My middle step son has had a few near death experiences, and has "talked to God" each time.


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## atlashunter (Jul 5, 2011)

Julia,

Thank you for sharing your experiences.


TripleX,

You're right about the emotion bit. Pastors know exactly what they are doing when they have the pianist start playing a slow emotional tune when they make the alter call.


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## bullethead (Jul 8, 2011)

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Reading+about+hospice+care+and+spirituality-a0216041468


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