# William Lane Craig explains Newtown massacre in context of Christmas



## atlashunter (Dec 26, 2012)




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## stringmusic (Dec 26, 2012)

Maybe you could re-name this thread to "Some guy edits a WLC lecture and talks over him to try and prove God doesnt' exist"


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## gordon 2 (Dec 26, 2012)

Atlashunter there are shavings in your gears...you need a cutting oil wash. Your fly wheel is not as sound as it could be.

The words of christianity are like the words in economics. They are not just the names for numbers like the name for schemes we can give the numbers one, two and three...but mean something and different things in the lives of people.

 (PS) W L Craig looks alot like Merle Haggard and some of their songs are just OK.


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## atlashunter (Dec 26, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Maybe you could re-name this thread to "Some guy edits a WLC lecture and talks over him to try and prove God doesnt' exist"



Actually I think it is more about the logical conclusions to be drawn from what Craig is saying and what it says about the nature of the god he describes. It doesn't paint a pretty picture.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 26, 2012)

Here is the original video. I don't see it as God causing the massacre. The preacher is using the massacre as an example of what King Herod did in relation to the Christmas story. That Christmas is more than a happy time. Easter is more than a happy time too. King Herod killing babies or Jesus being nailed to a cross in the Easter story are examples of sad/evil events that also produced something good. So now I've just contradicted myself as we know God predicted both tragedies as part of his plan or did he?


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## ambush80 (Dec 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Here is the original video. I don't see it as God causing the massacre. The preacher is using the massacre as an example of what King Herod did in relation to the Christmas story. That Christmas is more than a happy time. Easter is more than a happy time too. King Herod killing babies or Jesus being nailed to a cross in the Easter story are examples of sad/evil events that also produced something good. So now I've just contradicted myself as we know God predicted both tragedies as part of his plan or did he?



You have alot to work out.  I encourage you to continue to seek the truth.  You've got a good mind.  

If something doesn't make sense then it just doesn't make sense.


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## atlashunter (Dec 27, 2012)

According to gemcgrew God uses evil to his purpose. From Craig's retelling of the events leading up to Herod killing the babies it appears that is true. I wonder what good purpose was achieved by the planned killing of all those children and what parallels we should be drawing to the Newtown massacre? All part of the grand plan of a perfect and all good being? That takes a feat of mental acrobatics I must not be capable of.


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## JB0704 (Dec 27, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> According to gemcgrew God uses evil to his purpose.



It's not just Gem, that's a major worldview within Christianity.  I am not sure if there are certain portions of other religions which take such a position.



atlashunter said:


> From Craig's retelling of the events leading up to Herod killing the babies it appears that is true.



Could it be that what we take from each story is different?  Or, that we try to make sense of the senseless.  I have had some things come up recently which have challenged me in ways I haven't been challenged before.  I know, within this moment, I seek a reason which places struggles within "the plan."  It's human nature.

The one thing I am certain of is that I do not want to be in a world without God.  It keeps me grounded.  Folks can keep their "religion."  They can keep their ceremony and judgemental attitudes.  That's not for me.....but a world without God, to me, is sadder than the other reality.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> According to gemcgrew God uses evil to his purpose. From Craig's retelling of the events leading up to Herod killing the babies it appears that is true. I wonder what good purpose was achieved by the planned killing of all those children and what parallels we should be drawing to the Newtown massacre? All part of the grand plan of a perfect and all good being? That takes a feat of mental acrobatics I must not be capable of.



I can see the parallel between Mr. Craig and gemcgrew in relation to the video. I still don't know if Mr. Craig was alluding to God causing the event or if he was just using the event for his lesson in the video.
I too would have to question why God would mastermind the massacre but he did mastermind the killing of his own son if in fact he set us all up to fail from the garden. If the whole Old Testament was choreographed to prove we needed a saviour. Then I too don't know what God's purpose was/is. To me that sounds like he is playing one of those virtual life games like "Second Life" if in fact I don't have any free will. If I don't have a choice then why do I keep making them?

On a side note how is the Atheist community divided on pre-destination. I realize the only thing ya'll have in common is a non-belief in God but was just wondering.


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## JB0704 (Dec 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> On a side note how is the Atheist community divided on pre-destination. I realize the only thing ya'll have in common is a non-belief in God but was just wondering.



How can there be destiny without God?


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## stringmusic (Dec 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see it as God causing the massacre. The preacher is using the massacre as an example of what King Herod did in relation to the Christmas story.



Yep.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

ambush80 said:


> You have alot to work out.  I encourage you to continue to seek the truth.  You've got a good mind.
> If something doesn't make sense then it just doesn't make sense.


It could just not make sense or it could just be a mystery. Iris Dement(folk singer) sings "Just let the mystery be."

Thanks for your words of encouragement. The Bible is full of contradictions between free will & pre-destiny. Nothing in the Bible is cut & dry. Lots of gray areas. Some Christians say there isn't and they know the truth. They tell me if you read contradictions then you're not reading the Bible correctly. I need a copy of their Bible. 
I don't believe the Bible is without errors as it is written by man so it and religion is second from God to me.
As JB just said it's about God.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> How can there be destiny without God?



Instead of God controlling your every choice, something else is. It could be randomness, brain energy, or something along those lines. I can't explain it, i'll have to read up on it. Atheist call it determinsm instead of predestination. Some Atheist believe in free will. For some reason I thought they all would. I was using the same line of thinking if you don't believe in God, how could you believe in predestiny?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

How can theire be destiny WITH God? God wants us to live right and not sin. He wants us to forgive others and help others. He wants us to believe in Jesus.
How can there be destiny with God?


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## JB0704 (Dec 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> How can there be destiny with God?



Gemcgrew, spill on aisle 1.


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## stringmusic (Dec 27, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Gemcgrew, spill on aisle 1.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> How can there be destiny with God?



Definition of DESTINY
1: something to which a person or thing is destined : fortune <wants to control his own destiny> 
2: a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency 

 How can there not be destiny with God (The Creator of All)?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Gemcgrew, spill on aisle 1.


That's a good one. It'll be hard to top that one.

On determinism:
 All phenomena are causally determined by preceding events and preexisting laws and conditions. Just as a star has no free will to become a super nova or an animal has no choice but to get eaten by another animal, you have no choices either. I don't really understand it but i guess it's nature instead of God making your choices. You are just another object. I found another Christians view:
The Doctrine of “Determinism” — What Is It?
https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/1515-the-doctrine-of-determinism-what-is-it


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

Then there is the Chaos Theory some Atheist use to explain why they don't believe in free will. In chaos theory, chaos refers to an apparent lack of order in a system that nevertheless obeys certain laws. Chaos theory thus explains why it may be practically impossible to predict real life, whether determinism is true or false.
Chaos Theory is a mathematical sub-discipline that studies complex systems.
http://www.abarim-publications.com/ChaosTheoryIntroduction.html

It's either too early in the morning or i'm not educated enough to even research "chaos theory" any more. (or i'm just not interested)


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> Definition of DESTINY
> 1: something to which a person or thing is destined : fortune <wants to control his own destiny>
> 2: a predetermined course of events often held to be an irresistible power or agency
> 
> How can there not be destiny with God (The Creator of All)?



By giving us a choice. God didn't mastermind the massacre to show us an example of King Herod killing children. Mr. Craig used his free will to use the massacre as an example of the King Herod Story.
God doesn't make me eat unhealthy foods to give me bad health. If I felt this way, I wouldn't believe in preventative maintenance.Why do destiny believers try to eat healthy, exercise, and visit the doctor? I still haven't got an answer on that one.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 27, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why do destiny believers try to eat healthy, exercise, and visit the doctor? I still haven't got an answer on that one.



Many answers come to mind, but they are incomplete.  The bottom line is "In obedience to the Greatest Commandment".  Everything is for the love of God and to His glory.


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## Oak-flat Hunter (Dec 27, 2012)

*Destiny with out God.*

Is infusing the one into the whole by the natural selection process.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 27, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> According to gemcgrew God uses evil to his purpose. From Craig's retelling of the events leading up to Herod killing the babies it appears that is true. I wonder what good purpose was achieved by the planned killing of all those children and what parallels we should be drawing to the Newtown massacre? All part of the grand plan of a perfect and all good being? That takes a feat of mental acrobatics I must not be capable of.



I've did a little reading on Mr. Craig and he too believes as gemcgrew in that God uses evil for his purpose. I too believe that God has and can use evil for his purpose. I just don't believe that he masterminds every evil event such as the massacre. 
I don't believe that when a man slaps his wife, that God caused him to do it. I believe the man did it out of anger. I believe the man can control his anger and that God wants him too.


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## Four (Jan 2, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How can there be destiny without God?



its not really referred to as destiny, its the determinism vs. free will debate


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## Four (Jan 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've did a little reading on Mr. Craig and he too believes as gemcgrew in that God uses evil for his purpose. I too believe that God has and can use evil for his purpose. I just don't believe that he masterminds every evil event such as the massacre.
> I don't believe that when a man slaps his wife, that God caused him to do it. I believe the man did it out of anger. I believe the man can control his anger and that God wants him too.



If there is a non-detectable all powerful being in operation, you can never really know if it was it or not.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2013)

Four said:


> If there is a non-detectable all powerful being in operation, you can never really know if it was it or not.



And if we are all at the mercy of random brain chemicals causing our actions, there goes my free will. These same brain chemicals are what some believe caused the massacre at Sandy Hook. Reminds me of the Twinkie defence someone onced used as his reason for murdering.


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## Four (Jan 2, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And if we are all at the mercy of random brain chemicals causing our actions, there goes my free will. These same brain chemicals are what some believe caused the massacre at Sandy Hook. Reminds me of the Twinkie defence someone onced used as his reason for murdering.



Yea... i don't really out and reject determinism, because it makes a lot of sense as an engineer... 1+1 = 2, just because there are to many variables for ME to compute doesn't mean it cant be done....

That being said... living your life as a determanist is just kinda dumb, if you dont believe in free will, why have the discussion? It takes meaning away from stuff.... also takes blame away (its not my fault, determinism!)

So i'm kinda swayed by determinism, but life as if there is free will


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## gemcgrew (Jan 3, 2013)

Four said:


> That being said... living your life as a determanist is just kinda dumb


Or it is determined that you live a life of dumbness.



Four said:


> if you dont believe in free will, why have the discussion?


The discussion is determined to take place.



Four said:


> It takes meaning away from stuff


Or gives stuff meaning.



Four said:


> also takes blame away (its not my fault, determinism!)


Or places blame exactly where it is determined for blame to be. (it is my fault)


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> How can there be destiny without God?



Check out the speech by Sam Harris on free will.


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've did a little reading on Mr. Craig and he too believes as gemcgrew in that God uses evil for his purpose. I too believe that God has and can use evil for his purpose. I just don't believe that he masterminds every evil event such as the massacre.
> I don't believe that when a man slaps his wife, that God caused him to do it. I believe the man did it out of anger. I believe the man can control his anger and that God wants him too.



Is it moral for a being to use evil as a means to an end? What if they are capable of achieving the same end without the use of evil means? Doesn't that in itself demonstrate a preference toward evil and hence immorality?


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## atlashunter (Jan 4, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can see the parallel between Mr. Craig and gemcgrew in relation to the video. I still don't know if Mr. Craig was alluding to God causing the event or if he was just using the event for his lesson in the video.
> I too would have to question why God would mastermind the massacre but he did mastermind the killing of his own son if in fact he set us all up to fail from the garden. If the whole Old Testament was choreographed to prove we needed a saviour. Then I too don't know what God's purpose was/is. To me that sounds like he is playing one of those virtual life games like "Second Life" if in fact I don't have any free will. If I don't have a choice then why do I keep making them?
> 
> On a side note how is the Atheist community divided on pre-destination. I realize the only thing ya'll have in common is a non-belief in God but was just wondering.



Well the video explains God's role in causing the event, according to what the bible says. But even if you reject that there are other places in the bible where God directly orders the mass murder of children or engages in it himself by sending an angel of death.


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## JB0704 (Jan 6, 2013)

atlashunter said:


> Check out the speech by Sam Harris on free will.



Will do.


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## BobKat (Jan 7, 2013)

why do people always think bad things must be blamed on someone, like the devil.... isnt he locked up in the pit so he cant do any harm? and if god did it then is he not the righteous god that loves all? Maybe things just happen and he has no control over it? or maybe he knows  things will happen and doesnt stop it because of what could happen if he did????     kinda babbling i know but it makes me wonder.


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## stringmusic (Jan 7, 2013)

BobKat said:


> like the devil.... isnt he locked up in the pit so he cant do any harm?


No....

1 Peter 5:8
New International Version (NIV)

8 Be alert and of sober mind. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.


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## BobKat (Jan 7, 2013)

so he walks the earth? where does the pit come in?


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## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2013)

BobKat said:


> so he walks the earth? where does the pit come in?



Come on.... Does this really sound like something that is ACTUALLY happening.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2013)

Satan it the ruler of this world. He'll be thrown into the pit later. The pit is in the center of the Earth.


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## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Satan it the ruler of this world. He'll be thrown into the pit later. The pit is in the center of the Earth.



Oh my goodness....


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2013)




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## JB0704 (Jan 7, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Oh my goodness....





It's funny viewing belief, and it's variations, from the perspective of a non-believer.

Now would be a great time to bring back the elephant and the unicorn.


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## BobKat (Jan 8, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Come on.... Does this really sound like something that is ACTUALLY happening.



im just saying..... what does the bible say on this? i probably heard it a million times when i was a child in church but i couldnt tell you the story now.


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## stringmusic (Jan 8, 2013)

BobKat said:


> so he walks the earth? where does the pit come in?


Satan does not necessarily "walk" the earth, but he is here none the less.


ambush80 said:


> Come on.... Does this really sound like something that is ACTUALLY happening.



Absolutely....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting


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