# Attention, all Swap and Sellers.



## Nicodemus

The Swap and Sell Forum is not open for business at this time. This does not mean you can go into other forums and post up your guns for sale. Those of you who continue to do so, run the risk of havin` your membership  revoked.

Please take heed to this, if you want to stay here.


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## Twenty five ought six

The notice of closing of S&S, which has been up 5 days, has almost exactly the same number of views as Rules and Guidelines, which has been up for years (11,000).

That little factoid goes a long way toward explaining the current state of events.


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## KDarsey

......and they just keep sneaking in....


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## Jeff Raines

Boot'em


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## nhancedsvt

Jeff Raines said:


> Boot'em



I agree. I really enjoyed the S&S but I can definitely see where there were problems. I certainly understand why it's closed. I just hope that those in the wrong take heed and that we may be able to enjoy it again one day. Thanks for all that you do mods and admins!


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## germag

I really hate that it came to that because of a few clowns that couldn't follow the rules or just figured the rules didn't apply to them....but at least we'll find out now which ones were here just for the S&S to sell guns........and which ones are here for the forums and hanging out with friends and the S&S was just a bonus.


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## Keebs

Nicodemus said:


> The Swap and Sell Forum is not open for business at this time. This does not mean you can go into other forums and post up your guns for sale. Those of you who continue to do so, run the risk of havin` your membership  revoked.
> 
> Please take heed to this, if you want to stay here.



Is this the type thread you told me to stay out of Nic??


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## bearpugh

Keebs said:


> Is this the type thread you told me to stay out of Nic??



always one in every bunch.


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## NOYDB

Durn, and I had a bunch of cra... stuff to sell.

This is why I sometimes get strident about people that can't follow the rules. They screw it up for the rest of us.


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## Keebs

bearpugh said:


> always one in every bunch.


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## Derek Edge

I hate it.  I've enjoyed the pleasure of buying and selling many items over the years.  Bows for my kids, guns, boats, vehicles and many other toys.  I haven't looked at our weekly trader in years.  Maybe, just maybe they'll bring it back one day in the near future.  In the mean time, I guess I can be saving a bunch of money...lol.


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## germag

It really is a shame. The moderators worked their butts off to try to keep it under control so we would have a place to swap and sell stuff.....they really tried to keep it open. I appreciate everything they did and continue to do...and I fully understand why they shut it down and I don't blame them one bit. I probably would have lost patience with it long ago.

I hope the offending parties (you know who you are) are happy. You took a good thing and abused it to the point that you ruined it for the rest of the folks that followed the rules. Nice going.


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## jkoch

germag said:


> It really is a shame. The moderators worked their butts off to try to keep it under control so we would have a place to swap and sell stuff.....they really tried to keep it open. I appreciate everything they did and continue to do...and I fully understand why they shut it down and I don't blame them one bit. I probably would have lost patience with it long ago.
> 
> I hope the offending parties (you know who you are) are happy. You took a good thing and abused it to the point that you ruined it for the rest of the folks that followed the rules. Nice going.



They know who they are, but they really don't care. They will just move to another forum (I HOPE) and cause problems there. I hope we can get it back and keep it under control


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## Flow Master

I loved the S&S (kinda sounds dirty) but I totally understand the shut down. I say boot the violators.


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## frankwright

I belong to several outdoor/gun forums that require 50 or 100 posts before you can see the Swap/Sell forums.

 This eliminates a lot that do not participate but just want to sell.
Just making an observation


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## deerslayer357

I hate that S&S was shut down, but maybe it will come back one day.  Maybe all of those that are breaking the rules will get tired of waiting on it and go elsewhere (and STAY THERE!).


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## cpark

*s&s*

I hate that it was shut down too, but understand why. This is going to be my first year hunting and was trying to get most everything that I will need at least the basics. Now ill probably have to go buy all new or find another way to get what I need. Why can't people just read and follow the rules.


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## RackNBeardOutdoors

I have been off for a while and just saw this, it's sad it's gone, hopefully there will be a good solution to get it back. 

Hopefully the jerks won't come back who messed it up.


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## oshi

I'm not so sure the idea of having a certain number of posts or "enough" positive feedbacks would be a certain way of trying to control the swap and sell section isnt a bad idea.

I met alot of quality people in my deals and not one bad experience, but like another member said, it'll save me money )

Thanks Woodies for providing us a place to have fun and meet new people.


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## jglenn

good idea FrankWright. Nothing wrong with that idea at all.

love to see some of the "other" S&S forum come back other than the firearms for sale just to see how it goes.

I go to many "larger" forums that don't seem to have the issues we saw but...their members do a lot of policing themselves.  they can comment in the Ad and yet we don't see any smart "xxx' commments at all.

perhaps we needd more moderators for the S&S to help weed out the bad guys. I moderate on another site and know it's tough.

BTW already see some of the dealers(sudo or real) on the other 2 Ga forums


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## Nicodemus

Thank ya`ll for keepin` this bumped to the top. 

And for your understandin`.


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## Clarke123

Wow ... there are a number of issues here, but fortunately not to the scummy low level that some other forums north of here are experiencing: a plague of scammers, and out right crooks ... If you don't believe me, just look around!

I don't know where the moderators are going, but I'm certain that thier hearts are in the right place.

Historically, the strenght of our S&S system has been that most of our transactions have been face-to-face between "consenting adults" who are usually quite knowledgable about what they are buying and what it is worth.  If a deal isn't what it's supposed to be, then it doesn't happen ... you walk away.  Further, most of us are more proud of our reputations than making any deal "work"!  So, mis-representions are normally a rare event.

Then there are the problems that occur when someone goes out and buys a firearm somewhere without doing their research.  They over-pay,  then want someone else to pay for their mistake.  Usually, that results in them getting no offers for their posting, or offerings that are closer to reality than what they are asking.   Like it or not, that's not personal, it's just business ... PERIOD.  Call it like it is: "Life 101".

That said, the involvement of dealers on our forum is not neceassarily bad, IF WE KNOW THAT THEY ARE DEALERS. 

Personally, I like to see competition for my business.  The more, the better.  Like most of you, I look at other swap and sell websites before I make an offer on any posting.  
I don't want to overpay, nor do I want to take advantage of anyone ... I just want a fair deal.  So, I have no problem with dealers making postings as long as they are clearly identified, register as such and pay a reasonable fee for their postings. 

This is just my opinion ... after whatever debate has been finalized, I will continue to abide by the rules as I'm sure most of you have and will continue to do so!!!

God bless you all, I truly appreciate you and the fellowship I have found on GON


 Earl Clark - Cumming, Georgia


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## Mackey

Well I have to say that my first stop on this forum is always the "Spiritual Forum" cause I know that a lot of people need help from the "Prayer Warriors" here, but I DID like to look at all the candy in the window.


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## Gentleman4561

frankwright said:


> I belong to several outdoor/gun forums that require 50 or 100 posts before you can see the Swap/Sell forums.
> 
> This eliminates a lot that do not participate but just want to sell.
> Just making an observation



i think this will be a necessity if the S&S ever re opens.  It would be very useful.  I wouldnt mind either if they put a limit on the amount of items you can post in a day or week.


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## WyldeDime

Instead of shutting the S&S down and punishing everyone, why not just ban the offenders?

No warning, No second chance, no appeal. Just, ZAP!

Like I said in a PM..

Instead of cutting the chicken's head off, just pluck some feathers off his butt.


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## Nicodemus

Here, ya`ll read this. Again.


http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=4930848#post4930848


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## boneboy96

germag said:


> It really is a shame. The moderators worked their butts off to try to keep it under control so we would have a place to swap and sell stuff.....they really tried to keep it open. I appreciate everything they did and continue to do...and I fully understand why they shut it down and I don't blame them one bit. I probably would have lost patience with it long ago.
> 
> I hope the offending parties (you know who you are) are happy. You took a good thing and abused it to the point that you ruined it for the rest of the folks that followed the rules. Nice going.



Appreciate everybody's understanding as we try and come to some workable solution.


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## groundhawg

Gentleman4561 said:


> i think this will be a necessity if the S&S ever re opens.  It would be very useful.  I wouldnt mind either if they put a limit on the amount of items you can post in a day or week.



I agree about having a limit set for the number of posts and hope that if that is done then it will help.

Not so sure that a rule requring a certian number of posts will help since I have seen that tried on another forum and the ones just wanting to gain entry just got on a thread and replied back with one or two words over and over till they reached their number.


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## mattellis2

i've seen people spam boards to get their post count to whatever the number is too.  that is why it should be set at about 100 or so (250?), and then require mod verification to even see the SS forum.  if a mod can look at someone's posting history, and see that they are not contributing any meaningful manner, than they can deny them access. 

that will certainly help people be more diligent about obeying the rules and avoiding the ban.  it will take some actual work on their part (gasp) to enjoy some of the benefits of the board.  furthermore, it will eliminate or at least drastically slow down those that get the ban hammer, and immediately re-register under another name and pick up where they left off.

finally, i know this thought will not come to fruition, but if it were my board to run, i would allow comments about people's ads.  member policing helps keep the more outrageous posting in check.  look, it is most definitely a free market (for now anyway) and you can ask anything you want for whatever doodad you happen to be hawking.  that does NOT protect you from people thinking you're loopy, and openly saying so.  buyer response is part of the free market system too.  seeing the same $800 rifle posted for $1500 for 8 months is ridiculous.  it clogs the forums and wastes system resources. 

-matt


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## lwrd81

Well I miss it anyway.......but found another place just as good


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## coyotebgone

I had about 5 transactions, all ftf. With really cool guys that are just like me. Gun fans.  

Call me naive, but what was going on that was so wrong?

I never had the first transaction with anyone that I thought was a dealer.  I was trying to trade some brass one time and a guy asked me if I needed his help.  (thought he might be a dealer) but not sure.


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## Nicodemus

coyotebgone said:


> I had about 5 transactions, all ftf. With really cool guys that are just like me. Gun fans.
> 
> Call me naive, but what was going on that was so wrong?
> 
> I never had the first transaction with anyone that I thought was a dealer.  I was trying to trade some brass one time and a guy asked me if I needed his help.  (thought he might be a dealer) but not sure.





Follow the link in post # 26. It will give you the rundown.


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## mattellis2

coyotebgone said:


> I had about 5 transactions, all ftf. With really cool guys that are just like me. Gun fans.
> 
> Call me naive, but what was going on that was so wrong?
> 
> I never had the first transaction with anyone that I thought was a dealer.  I was trying to trade some brass one time and a guy asked me if I needed his help.  (thought he might be a dealer) but not sure.



i've read more than one post where someone showed up for a face to face and the other party had a 4473 to be filled out and wanted tax on top of the agreed upon price.


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## coyotebgone

Mattellis, 

If thats the case and if there is people that is storing pics on this site then I get the drift. 

I got into trouble two times.  Both times were an example of not reading all the newest rules.  I asked for consideration, none was given. I chalked it up to "oh well".  But if someone is that in your face as a dealer then they need to get booted.


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## Brassman

Hey, Nick, Bearpugh, & Boneboy.  You Moderators & Admins do what you need to do.  The rest of us that care about this Forum as a whole will follow & support you.  I can't put it any plainer than that.


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## hunter63john

I have thoroughy enjoyed the S&S forum and hope that one day it came come back without all the problems that have been appearing.  I have met some really great people from meeting  members to swap and sell. I hate that some people can ruin it for the true members of this board.  I have gathered/learned so much from this forum


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## Thor827

hunter63john said:


> I have thoroughy enjoyed the S&S forum and hope that one day it came come back without all the problems that have been appearing.  I have met some really great people from meeting  members to swap and sell. I hate that some people can ruin it for the true members of this board.  I have gathered/learned so much from this forum



I agree. I'll admit I joined last year for the swap and sell, but I've ended up spending more time on the other boards (firearms, politics, campfire, etc.) than I did on the s and s. I've noticed a couple of the other forums I go to are already cluttered with GON rejects. Maybe they will stay gone.


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## Roberson

Hey Nic, I got this old Winchester..................


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## Nicodemus

Gatorcountry said:


> Hey Nic, I got this old Winchester..................





I got one too! An old Model 12.


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## 243Savage

Let me give y'all an example of what we were dealing with....

Member is suspected of being a dealer, get's contacted by one of us with a polite non-accusatory inquiry regarding the seemingly high volume of goods being moved.  

Typical response:  "I'm being honest, I'm not a dealer nor a business".

Ok, we'll try to give them benefit of the doubt BUT still remain wary of what we've discovered so far.  

Eventually, evidence is obtained to learn we were misled and the person is actually a dealer, and removed from the forum.

Those are the folks who are genuinely angry, and in many cases quite beligerantly so, about swap and sale being closed because we took away their cash cow.  They put great effort into practicing many deceptive techniques to avoid detection and it was a daily cat and mouse game.  It occupied so much of the moderators time and efforts to keep under control, it was beyond ridiculous.  All because of their selfish, self serving interest, and desire to exploit the forum to their own advantage with no regard for the rules or forum membership.


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## Roberson

Nicodemus said:


> I got one too! An old Model 12.


 Dern, that's pretty funny.


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## Brassman

Keep going, Nic.  We're behind you - waaaay behind you.


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## Nicodemus

Gatorcountry said:


> Dern, that's pretty funny.





What kind is yours?


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## Roberson

Nicodemus said:


> What kind is yours?


The kind that's NOT for sale.


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## Brassman

WyldeDime, you may not be the girl in the picture, but you sure do have a way with words.


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## contender*

WyldeDime said:


> Instead of shutting the S&S down and punishing everyone, why not just ban the offenders?
> 
> No warning, No second chance, no appeal. Just, ZAP!
> 
> Like I said in a PM..
> 
> Instead of cutting the chicken's head off, just pluck some feathers off his butt.




X2!!!! Plus make sure that if and when it reopens ANYONE that comes across a deal and it turns out to be a dealer they turn the user name into the administration.  As already posted, it's a shame that a few screwed it up for the rest of us.


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## Balrog

I do not think you should have to have a high post count to place an ad.  If a guy that rarely (or never) posts in the forums has a nice gun he wants to sell me, I want him to be able to place the ad regardless of the post count.

I agree with others who have said that members should be able to comment on ads.  I think a lot of bad posts, posts from dealers, etc, would never have been placed to begin with, if they thought others would be able to comment on the ad.

By not allowing comments, the sellers had nothing to lose.


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## BkBigkid

Do what you have to do mods, the Swap and sell is nice Plus on the forum but not a must for a lot of us, Yes I have bought and sold on there about even across the S&S and Heck I even gave a telescope away. 

I lost interest in even checking the S&S because of the same folks selling on a daily Basis. you see the same names daily with something New to sell, I don't want to deal with someone Making a profit but someone that decide they didn't like the Toy they bought or didn't have time to use it and wanted something different. 

the original Intent of the Forum has been lost in the swap and sell, 
I talked to one individual on here that Point blankly told me He paid for a Family cruise from the Money he made in profit from the swap and sell forum during the past year. Yes that person was on others parts of the forum as well.  I haven't seen him on here lately I guess someone caught up with him. (don't ask Because I can not remember the Name) 


100 post in other sections is reasonable to be allowed in the swap and sell Forum.  allowing to post to items for sale is another way to police the forum as well. so when A dealer is found out a reply post can be made to let others know plan to fill out paperwork or pay Tax. 


Y'all are doing great and do what is right for the forum! Those of us that are here for the rest of the forums will stay around.


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## Whiteeagle

I stand behind the Moderators 100% and hope the mess gets cleared up soon. I only ask for those of us that use but not abuse are not punished too severly. I am sure that a close scrutiny of all the posters will help reveal the real perpetrators by what and the prices of their goods offered up for sale. Thanks all Mods, keep up the good work!


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## coyotebgone

Its kinda like dope.  If you take away the market the offenders will leave.  

If a GON Board participant is not leveled with, then he/she needs to walk from the deal no matter what.  (ie.  ask for tax or pull out a registration form, GON Member says take a hike and leaves).  

Or better yet, dealer ask for tax and cash. Let him know your gonna call the IRS and see what happens. 

Dealers will stop dealing. That simple


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## Dead Eye Eddy

NOYDB said:


> Durn, and I had a bunch of cra... stuff to sell.
> 
> This is why I sometimes get strident about people that can't follow the rules. They screw it up for the rest of us.



Yeah.  I just got my house straightened up and came up with all kinds of stuff that I was going to list in the S&S.  I haven't worked since February and could really use the money.  I sure hope the S&S comes back soon.

Just an idea.  How about only allowing members with 1 year membership and 100 posts start threads in the S&S?


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## coyotebgone

Dead Eye, 

Sounds good to me. I still have a few months to go to my one year point, but that would be fine.


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## AR-Trvlr

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> Yeah.  I just got my house straightened up and came up with all kinds of stuff that I was going to list in the S&S.  I haven't worked since February and could really use the money.  I sure hope the S&S comes back soon.
> 
> Just an idea.  How about only allowing members with 1 year membership and 100 posts start threads in the S&S?



I like the idea of time / posts, but I think a lower level on both would allow newbs to make full use, while weeding out 95% of the offenders.

How about 3 months / 25 posts?

(edit:  I just noticed my post count.  Given that this was my 49th post in almost 3 years, I definitely support a lower post minimum!)


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## mattellis2

the "49" is your i-trader feedback.  you've had at least 49 deals where someone felt like the deal was at least fair.  you have 834 posts.

i'm all for whatever number the mods select, but i think posting permission to the swap and sell should require manual authentication from the mods.  take a look at the person's posting history and make sure they're legitimate.


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## afterfire6942

It sure is a shame, I've met a bunch of good people on that swap and sell. I just hate that the few had to mess
it up for the rest if us.


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## EMC-GUN

I've made some good deals and met some good folks. Hopefully it will be back....


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## parolebear

I want to bump back to the top and say I support the mods in this effort.  I have been around for a while with many posts, PMs and feedback.  I used the S&S alot to further along my addiction.  The best thing was it graded my wife as she said that I was closer to the GON family than her.  

I am glad I never had someone pull a yellow form on me.  The time limit, post limits are fine, I would agree that "Woody" owns the site and the mods can kick anyone off they want.  The guys that I have heard complain about being booted were always warned usually many times. 

The times I have asked for permission or to clear something up I got a fast, polite and steadfast ruling.  Now, if S&S is not returned, I'll be back on GON to pick the brains of many very nice folks.  Thanks for the soapbox. MK


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## Flow Master

God Bless the Moderators for all you do. 
Glen


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## Pops garage

Balrog said:


> I do not think you should have to have a high post count to place an ad.  If a guy that rarely (or never) posts in the forums has a nice gun he wants to sell me, I want him to be able to place the ad regardless of the post count.
> 
> I agree with others who have said that members should be able to comment on ads.  I think a lot of bad posts, posts from dealers, etc, would never have been placed to begin with, if they thought others would be able to comment on the ad.
> 
> By not allowing comments, the sellers had nothing to lose.



X2 - Plus,  I know I came for the S&S, but found many other good places to visit and try to contribute and that's what the forum is all about.

Thanks mods, for all you do.


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## LEON MANLEY

Twenty five ought six said:


> The notice of closing of S&S, which has been up 5 days, has almost exactly the same number of views as Rules and Guidelines, which has been up for years (11,000).
> 
> That little factoid goes a long way toward explaining the current state of events.



When you catch an offender BAN them for a couple of months, and after that they do it again BAN forever.
These people that are posting swap and sale on other forums are blatantly disregarding the rules and should be held accountable. The are the very ones that got it shut down to start with.
I really enjoyed the S&S and met a lot of good people.
I do wish it would come back.


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## germag

I think that before people are allowed to post in the S&S, they should have to pass an online test on the rules. They are not that difficult to know and understand. A test would at least verify that the person has actually bothered to read them.

Then, a "1 strike and you're out" rule....not to ban them completely from the site necessarily, but lock them out of posting in the S&S.


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## bearpugh

i do hate this for the good members and appreciate the support. but it seems we have a whole new generation that feels their entitled to do anything they want. when you do get rid of them they come right back with a new i.d.
with over 56,000 members its just too much . changing rules doesn't help cuz they won't read them. if they do they won't care.


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## forsyth793

In the Swap & Sell area there was a lot more than Gun trades and sales that was of interest to Me. Is there a chance that these other areas are not infected???


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## Twenty five ought six

I'm not feeling strongly about it one or another.  I really enjoyed S&S, made some deals, got rid of some stuff. met some nice people.  I'd like to think that I used it in the spirit it was originally intended --sold some stuff I didn't need-- bought even more stuff I didn't need.

My suggestion, beyond having a minimum post count,  which is reviewed by a moderator before permission to post in s&S is given, is to have a form with verifiable information as back up to S&S  -- you have to do it for ebay, so it's not that radical an idea-- physical address, working phone number, real name verifiable name.

Also, the moderators could make the job easier on themselves by preparing a form (or format) that has to be included at the beginning of each ad, with the minimum of terms (F/S, F/T, F/S/T), and line for the price, and THE* blankety-blank location* -- at least on the county level.  I am so tired of ads that have no indication at all what part of the largest state east of the Mississippi they are in.  

In fact. I would refine my own suggestion by requiring a standard header/title format for ads --

Terms, brief description, if F/S --price, and county,  so that a title would read



> F/S--Original Boomensplitter -- $450--Early County -- (then add anything you want to gild the lily -- the mandatory LNIB, rare collectible, etc.)


 So your first entry, without exception, would be one of three choices, F/S, F/T, or F/S/T, which would require some minimum knowledge of the rules, and be easy to scan.

 If it's a F/T, instead of the price, a specific trade goal, not "whatcha got."  In my experience, most "whatcha got's " are thinly disguised auctions.

That way, a quick scan of the titles would tell you at a minimum who had read the rules, and was at least trying to get with the program.  I would be merciless-- if the title didn't follow that format *EXACTLY*, into File 13. I might give a person one chance to re-format it, but a repeat would have consequences.


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## Twenty five ought six

243Savage said:


> Let me give y'all an example of what we were dealing with....
> 
> Member is suspected of being a dealer, get's contacted by one of us with a polite non-accusatory inquiry regarding the seemingly high volume of goods being moved.
> 
> Typical response:  "I'm being honest, I'm not a dealer nor a business".
> 
> Ok, we'll try to give them benefit of the doubt BUT still remain wary of what we've discovered so far.
> 
> Eventually, evidence is obtained to learn we were misled and the person is actually a dealer, and removed from the forum.
> 
> Those are the folks who are genuinely angry, and in many cases quite beligerantly so, about swap and sale being closed because we took away their cash cow.  They put great effort into practicing many deceptive techniques to avoid detection and it was a daily cat and mouse game.  It occupied so much of the moderators time and efforts to keep under control, it was beyond ridiculous.  All because of their selfish, self serving interest, and desire to exploit the forum to their own advantage with no regard for the rules or forum membership.



Maybe it's just me, but in addition to just banning them, I think you should "out" them.

If it works for gays, it should work for us.


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## NOYDB

$5 per S&S thread. runs for 2 weeks then self-deletes. Payable via Paypal, gold coins or nuggets or cash.


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## mattellis2

no.  this is not ebay.


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## Adam5

I like the 90 day or 50 quality post rule at GPDO.


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## boneboy96

afterfire6942 said:


> It sure is a shame, I've met a bunch of good people on that swap and sell. I just hate that the few had to mess
> it up for the rest if us.





EMC-GUN said:


> I've made some good deals and met some good folks. Hopefully it will be back....





parolebear said:


> I want to bump back to the top and say I support the mods in this effort.  I have been around for a while with many posts, PMs and feedback.  I used the S&S alot to further along my addiction.  The best thing was it graded my wife as she said that I was closer to the GON family than her.
> 
> I am glad I never had someone pull a yellow form on me.  The time limit, post limits are fine, I would agree that "Woody" owns the site and the mods can kick anyone off they want.  The guys that I have heard complain about being booted were always warned usually many times.
> 
> The times I have asked for permission or to clear something up I got a fast, polite and steadfast ruling.  Now, if S&S is not returned, I'll be back on GON to pick the brains of many very nice folks.  Thanks for the soapbox. MK





Flow Master said:


> God Bless the Moderators for all you do.
> Glen





Pops garage said:


> X2 - Plus,  I know I came for the S&S, but found many other good places to visit and try to contribute and that's what the forum is all about.
> 
> Thanks mods, for all you do.





germag said:


> I think that before people are allowed to post in the S&S, they should have to pass an online test on the rules. They are not that difficult to know and understand. A test would at least verify that the person has actually bothered to read them.
> 
> Then, a "1 strike and you're out" rule....not to ban them completely from the site necessarily, but lock them out of posting in the S&S.


 


bearpugh said:


> i do hate this for the good members and appreciate the support. but it seems we have a whole new generation that feels their entitled to do anything they want. when you do get rid of them they come right back with a new i.d.
> with over 56,000 members its just too much . changing rules doesn't help cuz they won't read them. if they do they won't care.


   I hope to see the S&S return as well...as you can see by my feedbacks, I did enjoy lurking around in there!   If everyone would simply have read the rules and abided by them, this closure would not have taken place.   Hopefully in time, we can see the S&S return.  Nothing in the foreseeable future as of yet though.


----------



## Balrog

How about S&S only for subscribers of the magazine?

Or maybe print a code in each month's magazine that you have to use to sign in with for non subscribers?

Just throwing out ideas.  That would probably keep people that are banned for violating the rules from being able to re-register as easily.


----------



## Flow Master

I know on another forum I belong too (music forum). You can only be a member by invitation. Mods. know member "A" and knows he's a straight up guy and member "A" invites new guy to be a member and runs it by the Mod. to get access and so on. Just a thought.
Glen


----------



## KDarsey

ummmmm......


----------



## boneboy96

KDarsey said:


> ummmmm......



day early aren't ya?


----------



## KDarsey

might not be here tomorrow..


----------



## wildmantaz

I miss the S&S as I like to see what is out there. I sold some items to be able to purchase items that I wanted. I was able to add quite a few items to my collection because of the S&S. Also I met some great members off the board.

I was also able to sell some items for a LEO Dept. to help them fund some of their needs.

I have not been very active lately because of health problems. 

I noticed alot of the issues were from mostly members with less than two years of membership. I guess they didn't have time to read the rules.


----------



## Rednec

Just ban them from S&S...


----------



## redlevel

*Unintended Consequences*

Beware of the law of unintended consequences.

All the suggestions for a minimum number of posts, or a minimum length of time as a member sound good, BUT:

I can think of three different guns, maybe four, all very satisfactory transactions, that I have bought from people who joined and posted just to sell a particular gun, or in two cases, to respond to a "wanted to buy" thread by me.  I don't see anything wrong with this.  Not everybody wants to, or has time to spend posting on a forum.   Those are probably four guns I got at pretty decent prices that I probably wouldn't have if such rules were in place.  I guess one could avoid that by posting his/her contact information in the thread so that lurkers could call or email.

Actually, I think what has happened is that a group of wives has gotten together and paid off the mods to take down the S&S.


----------



## Gun Guru

I've used the S&S a lot. I really enjoyed reading the ads and even sold a few items myself. I'll miss it. But!! The best thing I've got from this site is the friends and new hunting partners I've found. Hope you Mods. find a solution. Thanks for all you do for us.


----------



## mattellis2

redlevel said:


> Beware of the law of unintended consequences.
> 
> All the suggestions for a minimum number of posts, or a minimum length of time as a member sound good, BUT:
> 
> I can think of three different guns, maybe four, all very satisfactory transactions, that I have bought from people who joined and posted just to sell a particular gun, or in two cases, to respond to a "wanted to buy" thread by me.  I don't see anything wrong with this.  Not everybody wants to, or has time to spend posting on a forum.   Those are probably four guns I got at pretty decent prices that I probably wouldn't have if such rules were in place.  I guess one could avoid that by posting his/her contact information in the thread so that lurkers could call or email.
> 
> Actually, I think what has happened is that a group of wives has gotten together and paid off the mods to take down the S&S.



yeah, but if those rules were in place, it is likely we'd still have the swap and sell.  furthermore, i am sure you would have found someone else to purchase your items, assuming they were fairly priced.  as for the items you picked up, you wouldn't have known about them, and this is one of those cases where ignorance would have been bliss.


----------



## treemanjohn

This forum is a business and needs to be run that way. There's a ton of impressions being lost since S&S closed. 

The mods need to take and Ebay/Amazon approach by shooting first and asking questions later. I know members have voiced issues with dealers since Obama was elected, the dealers were even called out, and the sales threads were reported.  Nothing happened. All of the complaint threads were cleaned and or deleted.

The mods and admin are doing a good job, but it could be a heck of a lot better by listening to the members. 99.9% of the members follow the rules and the ones that can't should just be banned instantly with no quesitons asked. Keep it simple


----------



## littleman102475

i do miss the s&s just wish people could follow the rules hope it opens back up soon


----------



## ted_BSR

I originally joined up to Woody's to find some members for my club.  Found 4 great guys that are all on their second season with us.  In the mean time I have made some new friends, learned some stuff, and have really enjoyed the other forums from fishing to deer hunting to braggin' boards.  The S&S forum was cool, but it is a small slice of the pie.

I love Woody's, S&S or no S&S.

Mods, all us normal people understand why you had to do what was done, and we support you.


----------



## HandgunHTR

Balrog said:


> I do not think you should have to have a high post count to place an ad.  If a guy that rarely (or never) posts in the forums has a nice gun he wants to sell me, I want him to be able to place the ad regardless of the post count.
> 
> I agree with others who have said that members should be able to comment on ads.  I think a lot of bad posts, posts from dealers, etc, would never have been placed to begin with, if they thought others would be able to comment on the ad.
> 
> By not allowing comments, the sellers had nothing to lose.



The problem is the bozos who cannot give constructive criticism.  They feel the need to belittle the OP in order to try to get a "steal" for themselves or just to make themselves feel smart.  Which means that we have just as much work on our hands.


----------



## germag

HandgunHTR said:


> The problem is the bozos who cannot give constructive criticizim.  They feel the need to belittle the OP in order to try to get a "steal" for themselves or just to make themselves feel smart.  Which means that we have just as much work on our hands.



But you guys banned (and banded) him a long time ago......


----------



## HandgunHTR

germag said:


> But you guys banned (and banded) him a long time ago......



Well, get rid of one bozo and 5 more will step up to take their place.

Remember:  No good deed goes unpunished.


----------



## germag

I know.....unfortunately that's a fact....


----------



## bearpugh

its viscious. i would clean up s&s, leave for 2 hrs and have 30 violations sitting there. by the time i could handle them, 10 more. with that many that have no regard  theres no way to keep up. then each of them sends numerous pm's to argue that they were singled out.


----------



## shawn mills

OK mods... The good guys here have suffered enough! You guys come to a logical solution ( several really good ones have been offered here) and lets get the S&S back up and running! This is a great site with a big family and it really needs the S&S!


----------



## germag

bearpugh said:


> its viscious. i would clean up s&s, leave for 2 hrs and have 30 violations sitting there. by the time i could handle them, 10 more. with that many that have no regard  theres no way to keep up. then each of them sends numerous pm's to argue that they were singled out.



You were singling them all out simultaneously...


----------



## HandgunHTR

shawn mills said:


> OK mods... The good guys here have suffered enough! You guys come to a logical solution ( several really good ones have been offered here) and lets get the S&S back up and running! This is a great site with a big family and it really needs the S&S!




Actually Shawn, I think the concensus amoungst the Admins and Mods is that we _don't_ actually need the S&S.  The site was started by Woody for a place for GA hunters and fishermen to come and connect with one another and share stories (true or not ) and to share knowledge.

In a lot of our minds it really was all about the S&S for quite a few of our "members".  Do a quick check in the roster on posting activity, and you will see a lot of people who only posted in the S&S, or at least had over 75% of their posts there.  We have over 56,000 members and I would be confident in saying that over half of them were only here for the S&S.  That is not what Woody intended.

I realize that this isn't a popular opinion, but that is the way that I see it.  As you can see from my feedback, I have enjoyed using the S&S just as much as the next guy, but it isn't the reason that I enjoy the site.


----------



## redlevel

mattellis2 said:


> .  as for the items you picked up, you wouldn't have known about them, and this is one of those cases where ignorance would have been bliss.




That doesn't make a whole lot os sense.

My point is that it isn't always new members, or those who don't post much who cause the problems.  About the only negative experience I had on S&S came when a member who had been active several years with hundreds of posts sent me an "I'll take it" PM, then 20 minutes later, after I had posted "sold" on the thread title, he sent me a PM backing out of the deal.


----------



## germag

HandgunHTR said:


> Actually Shawn, I think the concensus amoungst the Admins and Mods is that we _don't_ actually need the S&S.  The site was started by Woody for a place for GA hunters and fishermen to come and connect with one another and share stories (true or not ) and to share knowledge.
> 
> In a lot of our minds it really was all about the S&S for quite a few of our "members".  Do a quick check in the roster on posting activity, and you will see a lot of people who only posted in the S&S, or at least had over 75% of their posts there.  We have over 56,000 members and I would be confident in saying that over half of them were only here for the S&S.  That is not what Woody intended.
> 
> I realize that this isn't a popular opinion, but that is the way that I see it.  As you can see from my feedback, I have enjoyed using the S&S just as much as the next guy, but it isn't the reason that I enjoy the site.



10-4. I'm right with you on that. I really enjoyed the S&S, but it is not my reason for being here. I would love to have it back, but I'm not going anywhere if it doesn't come back.


----------



## Balrog

I think having an active swap and sell forum is a great way to advance hunting and shooting sports.  Hunters and shooters like their gear, and being able to quickly sell what you have gotten tired of or bored with lets you have money to spend on new hunting and shooting stuff.

So really I think having an easy way to get rid of stuff you don't want, and find stuff you do want allows people to enjoy the sport more, which is what this site is really all about.

I know if I could not sell my used stuff, I would not be able to enjoy shooting as much because I would not have money to spend on new stuff.


----------



## shawn mills

I was just hoping we could reach a happy medium somewhere. I've bought and sold a lot of hunting gear on S&S, not to mention the friendships I still maintain with a few of the buyer /sellers from these deals. I too love the forum for the conversations, topics and gatherings. I'm at almost every gathering and i consider a lot of people here to be like family. I wont go anywhere either! I love this place. I just wish we could find a way to make it work without the few bad apples spoiling it for the majority.


----------



## Derek Edge

Just don't do away with the Outdoor Cafe forum, God, I'd be lost without it...lol, and probably a little skinnier.


----------



## contender*

HandgunHTR said:


> Actually Shawn, I think the concensus amoungst the Admins and Mods is that we _don't_ actually need the S&S.  The site was started by Woody for a place for GA hunters and fishermen to come and connect with one another and share stories (true or not ) and to share knowledge.
> 
> In a lot of our minds it really was all about the S&S for quite a few of our "members".  Do a quick check in the roster on posting activity, and you will see a lot of people who only posted in the S&S, or at least had over 75% of their posts there.  We have over 56,000 members and I would be confident in saying that over half of them were only here for the S&S.  That is not what Woody intended.
> 
> I realize that this isn't a popular opinion, but that is the way that I see it.  As you can see from my feedback, I have enjoyed using the S&S just as much as the next guy, but it isn't the reason that I enjoy the site.



I don't see a problem with those that come here to use/post in the S&S exclusively, just so they follow the rules what does it matter?
I have actually met (face to face) more of the members here through the S&S than I have through any other section of the forums because I have yet to make it to any of the gatherings. Not that I wouldn't love to come to one some day, it's just the cards haven't fallen in the right places for me to attend. So generally speaking the S&S has brought hunters, fisherman and outdoorsman together, at least in my case. 
I do realize what your saying about Woody not wanting the S&S to be the main focus of the board but if not the S&S then I would think the next in line would be the Campfire forum which is an "anything goes" forum (not exclusively hunting or fishing).
I agree with everyone else, two strikes and your gone. I have no problem following the rules, so I see no reason for anyone else to ignore them.
As far as the rule about not being able to post in someones else' add, I think it was a good decision. It got rid of a LOT of the hateful comments in the S&S. If you have a question or comment there's no reason for it to be done anywhere else but through private message.
I say run it like I run the school buses I drive, two strikes and your walking.


----------



## germag

shawn mills said:


> I was just hoping we could reach a happy medium somewhere. I've bought and sold a lot of hunting gear on S&S, not to mention the friendships I still maintain with a few of the buyer /sellers from these deals. I too love the forum for the conversations, topics and gatherings. I'm at almost every gathering and i consider a lot of people here to be like family. I wont go anywhere either! I love this place. I just wish we could find a way to make it work without the few bad apples spoiling it for the majority.



That would be nice, wouldn't it? You'd think that a bunch of full-grown adults could follow a few simple rules.....


----------



## contender*

germag said:


> 10-4. I'm right with you on that. I really enjoyed the S&S, but it is not my reason for being here. I would love to have it back, but I'm not going anywhere if it doesn't come back.



Good post!!


----------



## NOYDB

mattellis2 said:


> no.  this is not ebay.



Well, I was going to split it with the mods.....

70/30


----------



## coyotebgone

Originally Posted by HandgunHTR  
Actually Shawn, I think the concensus amoungst the Admins and Mods is that we don't actually need the S&S.

I am sure that I will be considered belligerent about this comment.  But it is a serious statement/question, here it goes. (I am not a dealer of any gun or hunting related items, I do healthcare engineering work) 

If the board and Woodys is so against businesses then why is it that: 
1.  www.gon.com have 17 business related ventures on the front of their page. All of which would find competition with a S&S Page.
2.  Why is it that its ok for Woody's web sheet to advertise in its links for someone that sells the same type stuff as is posted in the S&S 
3.  Why is it ok for certain taxidermist advertise. 

The obvious answer is that its woodys/mod/admin and yall can do as you please. (I am way cool with that).  Thats the same reason I own my business, so that I can do as I please. 

But, is there some financial reason that the S&S section was shut down.  Could there have been a business issue between the forum  and the vendors/business partners/advertisers. 

I find it curious that some acute event happened that caused the iron gate to swing shut.

It really makes me no difference.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

HandgunHTR said:


> In a lot of our minds it really was all about the S&S for quite a few of our "members".  Do a quick check in the roster on posting activity, and you will see a lot of people who only posted in the S&S, or at least had over 75% of their posts there.  We have over 56,000 members and I would be confident in saying that over half of them were only here for the S&S.  That is not what Woody intended.
> .




That's why I concur in the opinion that a certain number of quality posts should be a prerequisite for posting in S&S, and there should be a separate registration process where the posters have to provide verifiable personal information.

Thee burden for getting on S&S should be shifted to those who want to participate.  There should be no "right' to list in S&S.


----------



## UGAGRAD04

243Savage said:


> Let me give y'all an example of what we were dealing with....
> 
> Member is suspected of being a dealer, get's contacted by one of us with a polite non-accusatory inquiry regarding the seemingly high volume of goods being moved.
> 
> Typical response:  "I'm being honest, I'm not a dealer nor a business".
> 
> Ok, we'll try to give them benefit of the doubt BUT still remain wary of what we've discovered so far.
> 
> Eventually, evidence is obtained to learn we were misled and the person is actually a dealer, and removed from the forum.
> 
> Those are the folks who are genuinely angry, and in many cases quite beligerantly so, about swap and sale being closed because we took away their cash cow.  They put great effort into practicing many deceptive techniques to avoid detection and it was a daily cat and mouse game.  It occupied so much of the moderators time and efforts to keep under control, it was beyond ridiculous.  All because of their selfish, self serving interest, and desire to exploit the forum to their own advantage with no regard for the rules or forum membership.




When you found out a poster was a dealer and they were banned, do you IP ban them or just ban that particular account?  Why not institute a requirement that no free email services are allowed if you want to post on S&S.  No gmail,no hotmail, etc.  Most if not all IP providers now offer some sort of email, I would think requiring this as well as IP banning dealers would help mitigate some of the riff raff.


----------



## UGAGRAD04

Twenty five ought six said:


> That's why I concur in the opinion that a certain number of quality posts should be a prerequisite for posting in S&S, and there should be a separate registration process where the posters *have to provide verifiable personal information.*
> 
> Thee burden for getting on S&S should be shifted to those who want to participate.  There should be no "right' to list in S&S.



Sorry but that is simply not a good idea.  No way in...heck I'm gonna give out my personal information.  I have nothing to hide but, the only way someone is going to get my information is if I make a deal with them and feel comfortable providing them that information.  My information along with the buyer or seller's information is our business, not this forums or some server with who knows what protections over my information.


----------



## Unicoidawg

coyotebgone said:


> The obvious answer is that its woodys/mod/admin and yall can do as you please. (I am way cool with that).  Thats the same reason I own my business, so that I can do as I please.
> 
> But, is there some financial reason that the S&S section was shut down.  Could there have been a business issue between the forum  and the vendors/business partners/advertisers.
> 
> I find it curious that some acute event happened that caused the iron gate to swing shut.
> 
> It really makes me no difference.




I can asure you that it shutting down had NOTHING to do with money and EVERYTHING to do with people that can't or won't follow the rules.


----------



## coyotebgone

*sounds good to me.*



Unicoidawg said:


> I can asure you that it shutting down had NOTHING to do with money and EVERYTHING to do with people that can't or won't follow the rules.



Thats a fair enough answer. 

Thanks.


----------



## Buck

Up to this point in this thread if I said 10 posts had been removed or modified for rule violations would you believe it?

Believe it, it's true...


----------



## wildhunter

Its nice being able to buy and sell with trusted GON members and now that its gone.  It suxs

Lets put it back


----------



## germag

buck#4 said:


> Up to this point in this thread if I said 10 posts had been removed or modified for rule violations would you believe it?
> 
> Believe it, it's true...



Yes, unfortunately that's not hard to believe.


----------



## contender*

buck#4 said:


> Up to this point in this thread if I said 10 posts had been removed or modified for rule violations would you believe it?
> 
> Believe it, it's true...



So quit slapping them on the hand and give them six days in the cooler. It wouldn't take long to weed out the slackers. Consistency is the key.


----------



## bearpugh

Unicoidawg said:


> I can asure you that it shutting down had NOTHING to do with money and EVERYTHING to do with people that can't or won't follow the rules.



yup


----------



## dawg2

contender* said:


> So quit slapping them on the hand and give them six days in the cooler. It wouldn't take long to weed out the slackers. Consistency is the key.



We have been banning members/dealers.  For every ONE that gets banned, 10 come to their funeral.  It is like squirrel hunting.


----------



## CTY

buck#4 said:


> Up to this point in this thread if I said 10 posts had been removed or modified for rules violations would you believe it?
> 
> Believe it, it's true...


-
Can you provide some examples of the 10 posts that you are referring to?  Since so many rules are being violated at a rapid pace, many of us would like to know what rules are being broken?  How serious are these infractions? Were the 10 posts all from dealers?
It seems all we hear is, "too many violations"....that is  vague.  Other than the dealer issue (which I agree with), what is worthy of closing the forum?


----------



## dawg2

LEON MANLEY said:


> When you catch an offender BAN them for a couple of months, and after that they do it again BAN forever.
> These people that are posting swap and sale on other forums are blatantly disregarding the rules and should be held accountable. The are the very ones that got it shut down to start with.
> I really enjoyed the S&S and met a lot of good people.
> I do wish it would come back.


Anyone banned from here is permanent.  Their actions / infractions are reviewed and discussed and then they are cut loose.  There are no "temporary" bannings on this site.


----------



## bearpugh

no one can accuse me of going easy on anybody.


----------



## dawg2

CTY said:


> -
> Can you provide some examples of the 10 posts that you are referring to?  Since so many rules are being violated at a rapid pace, many of us would like to know what rules are being broken?  How serious are these infractions? Were the 10 posts all from dealers?
> It seems all we hear is, "too many violations"....that is  vague.  Other than the dealer issue (which I agree with), what is worthy of closing the forum?


Here you go.  Take your pick.

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=350414


----------



## CTY

dawg2 said:


> Here you go.  Take your pick.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=350414


-
Thanks, but I have read that link.  I was asking specifically about the 10 violations referred to in the aforementioned post.  I'm simply trying to make heads or tails of this whole deal.


----------



## contender*

dawg2 said:


> We have been banning members/dealers.  For every ONE that gets banned, 10 come to their funeral.  It is like squirrel hunting.



Sounds like we need more hunters, or bigger guns.


----------



## weagle

Been a member here and on a lot of firearms forums for years and the very best swap and sell forums are the LEAST moderated.

Woody's used to be like that and it ran well.  

I still love the GON forums, but have pretty much ignored the S&S since it took on the personality of a Dunwoody neighborhood association meeting. 

Weagle


----------



## 243Savage

dawg2 said:


> We have been banning members/dealers.  For every ONE that gets banned, 10 come to their funeral.  It is like squirrel hunting.



More like a G-man running surveillance on a mafia funeral.

Oh....look who just stepped out of that limousine.


----------



## CTY

weagle said:


> Been a member here and on a lot of firearms forums for years and the very best swap and sell forums are the LEAST moderated.
> 
> Woody's used to be like that and it ran well.
> 
> I still love the GON forums, but have pretty much ignored the S&S since it took on the personality of a Dunwoody neighborhood association meeting.
> 
> Weagle


Can't say I disagree with that observation.
-


----------



## bearpugh

weagle said:


> Been a member here and on a lot of firearms forums for years and the very best swap and sell forums are the LEAST moderated.
> 
> Woody's used to be like that and it ran well.
> 
> I still love the GON forums, but have pretty much ignored the S&S since it took on the personality of a Dunwoody neighborhood association meeting.
> 
> Weagle



ah , i miss the good ol days too. but now with so many members thats all gone.


----------



## dawg2

contender* said:


> Sounds like we need more hunters, or bigger guns.



Actually, plastic works good.


----------



## CTY

bearpugh said:


> ah , i miss the good ol days too. but now with so many members thats all gone.


--
Seems like the good ol days changed over night.  
Other than the dealer issue, why did the forums close....and I'm not interested in a vague comment or a link to the rules (Like the response from DAWG2). I want to know...if the dealer issue is solved will S&S re-open.  If not, there must be some other issue


----------



## germag

dawg2 said:


> Actually, plastic works good.



Those 3 words are like the best idea ever.


----------



## K80

CTY said:


> Can't say I disagree with that observation.
> -



Then why  about it being closed.


----------



## bearpugh

CTY said:


> --
> Seems like the good ol days changed over night.
> Other than the dealer issue, why did the forums close....and I'm not interested in a vague comment or a link to the rules (Like the response from DAWG2). I want to know...if the dealer issue is solved will S&S re-open.  If not, there must be some other issue



then you can read the previous posts in this thread and get your answer.


----------



## contender*

dawg2 said:


> Actually, plastic works good.




Too much collateral damage using those.


----------



## contender*

CTY said:


> --
> Seems like the good ol days changed over night.
> Other than the dealer issue, why did the forums close....and I'm not interested in a vague comment or a link to the rules (Like the response from DAWG2). I want to know...if the dealer issue is solved will S&S re-open.  If not, there must be some other issue



 Keep pushin, I bet you'll find out.


----------



## Cottontail

Put a limit on how many items one person can advertise like 2 a month, thats total on all the swap and sell forums.If the items sell in 1 day oh well you still have to wait 30 days to post anything else. Thats just a thought.


----------



## 243Savage

CTY said:


> --
> Seems like the good ole days changed over night.
> Other than the dealer issue, why did the forums close....and I'm not interested in a vague comment or a link to the rules. I want to know...if the dealer issue is solved will S&S re-open.  If not, there must be some other issue



Aside from the dealer issue, which is huge, it was also an excessive degree of failure to follow the rules.

Example:  One gun per thread rule.  

What would we see?  2,3,4+ guns per thread posted DESPITE being previously warned about it.

Example:  One thread per day rule.

What would we see?  A person making 5+ threads per day DESPITE being previously warned.  

Example:  No selling of reloads rule.

What would we see?  Reloads being advertised for sale by the lot.

Example:  All items posted for sale must have a price

What would we see?  Auctions.  Links to the item on Ebay, etc.

The whole thing was really spiraling out of control because of the excessive disregard for the rules that many folks practiced.


----------



## wickedjester

243Savage said:


> Aside from the dealer issue, which is huge, it was also an excessive degree of failure to follow the rules.
> 
> Example:  One gun per thread rule.
> 
> What would we see?  2,3,4+ guns per thread posted DESPITE being previously warned about it.
> 
> Example:  One thread per day rule.
> 
> What would we see?  A person making 5+ threads per day DESPITE being previously warned.
> 
> Example:  No selling of reloads rule.
> 
> What would we see?  Reloads being advertised for sale by the lot.
> 
> Example:  All items posted for sale must have a price
> 
> What would we see?  Auctions.  Links to the item on Ebay, etc.
> 
> The whole thing was really spiraling out of control because of the excessive disregard for the rules that many folks practiced.



Thanks Mods for all you do,every single one of you.

I liked the S&S Forum,but can live without it.

I also saw,reported violators and saw they were not banned....

I hate it came to this.Even when we policed our own it didnt work out and they still got to stay and the rest lose out.

I hope a happy medium comes along as well.

Thanks Again,
Chris


----------



## jbi1104

243Savage said:


> Aside from the dealer issue, which is huge, it was also an excessive degree of failure to follow the rules.
> 
> Example:  One gun per thread rule.
> 
> What would we see?  2,3,4+ guns per thread posted DESPITE being previously warned about it.
> 
> Example:  One thread per day rule.
> 
> What would we see?  A person making 5+ threads per day DESPITE being previously warned.
> 
> Example:  No selling of reloads rule.
> 
> What would we see?  Reloads being advertised for sale by the lot.
> 
> Example:  All items posted for sale must have a price
> 
> What would we see?  Auctions.  Links to the item on Ebay, etc.
> 
> The whole thing was really spiraling out of control because of the excessive disregard for the rules that many folks practiced.



The highlighted above is the reason for many of the problems.  People realize fast that the worse they will get is a 'warning'.  If people choose not to read the rules and abide by them, then why warn?  Why not get rid of them and call it a day?

Simple enough really.


----------



## dawg2

contender* said:


> Too much collateral damage using those.



Therein lies the problem


----------



## bearpugh

lets not forget the

early relists
wtb's in sales area
ads in wrong forum
posting for a friend


----------



## jbi1104

bearpugh said:


> lets not forget the
> 
> early relists
> wtb's in sales area
> ads in wrong forum
> posting for a friend



Like I told you when we met up.  Public ridicule is the best cure.  Post text under their name with '30 day ban' '60 day ban' choose your poison for infraction.  Works well on many other sites I frequent.  Call it a timeout or what not, but make it part of their online persona for awhile.


----------



## bearpugh

jbi1104 said:


> The highlighted above is the reason for many of the problems.  People realize fast that the worse they will get is a 'warning'.  If people choose not to read the rules and abide by them, then why warn?  Why not get rid of them and call it a day?
> 
> Simple enough really.



dang, bro. i'm already being called a nazi as is. lol. one forum even said our reign of terror is over. geez!


----------



## jbi1104

bearpugh said:


> dang, bro. i'm already being called a nazi as is. lol. one forum even said our reign of terror is over. geez!




Haha -- I would take being hard handed as a compliment.  Like I said to you, this resembles kindergarten for grown ups at times.


----------



## bearpugh

currently we don't have temporary bans. you get your strikes  then your out.


----------



## jbi1104

bearpugh said:


> currently we don't have temporary bans. you get your strikes  then your out.



In my opinion therein lies the problem.  Because it is absolute only with no options, this forces the mods to feel the need to warn.  This leads to problems.  If dealers are the issue, state in the rules this is a permanent ban.  Enforce the early reposters, multiple ads, etc with a little public attention, aka temporary bans.  Accumulate a certain of those and it leads to permanent.


----------



## bearpugh

just ain't gonna let me reacquire my care bear status are you?


----------



## Paleo

bearpugh said:


> lets not forget the
> 
> early relists
> wtb's in sales area
> ads in wrong forum
> posting for a friend



I was getting tired just PMing the mods about those

I do hope S&S returns some day


----------



## Sanders150

I was told to join this site due to the S&S by another member who is my neighbor. I was looking for something and he said I could probably find it on the S&S. So I guess technically the S&S is the reason I was brought here. Not the whole reason I stayed. But there were days when I would log on to look through the S&S to see what was floating around and then leave. Bless you mods I would not want your position. You get all the headache. Not enough praise.


----------



## Cottontail

Paleo said:


> I was getting tired just PMing the mods about those
> 
> I do hope S&S returns some day



I know secondseason got tired of me sending her pms there was one idiot on the small game forum selling a long list of phones, i pods and other electronics a day or so before the close of the s&s....  She banned him right then Thanks secondseason that away to take care of  idiots who cost us the s&s. This should be done and others will learn the hard way..


----------



## drewpatt

Maybe every thing will get straitened out & back to normal, until then well just have to talk about hunting & fishing but thats alright too thats why most of us are here. Every one I met through the s&s seemed to be upstanding folks. I guess I didn't meet the rif raf maybe thay'll leave.


----------



## MudDucker

I say this is nothing more than discrimination ... discrimination I tell you ... plain and simple ... plain as the pimple on your behind ... a sore ... a festering sore ... that is what it is ... a discriminatory pimple!

The admin have decided to outlaw idiot dealers who can not read the rules ... how outrageous.  What ya'll think ya'll are ... Arizona.  Don't you know that idiot dealers are really just undocumented soon to be civilian posters?  Don't you know you can not outlaw illegal, because two negatives create a positive.  Ain't no such thing as a double naught!

Outrageous I tell ... just outrageous. 

What ... this isn't the political forum ... opps ... sorry guys.


----------



## bearpugh

security!


----------



## Pops garage

MudDucker said:


> I say this is nothing more than discrimination ... discrimination I tell you ... plain and simple ... plain as the pimple on your behind ... a sore ... a festering sore ... that is what it is ... a discriminatory pimple!
> 
> The admin have decided to outlaw idiot dealers who can not read the rules ... how outrageous.  What ya'll think ya'll are ... Arizona.  Don't you know that idiot dealers are really just undocumented soon to be civilian posters?  Don't you know you can not outlaw illegal, because two negatives create a positive.  Ain't no such thing as a double naught!
> 
> Outrageous I tell ... just outrageous.
> 
> What ... this isn't the political forum ... opps ... sorry guys.


----------



## NOYDB

All the Glock guys must be going thru withdrawal.


----------



## redlevel

MudDucker said:


> I say this is nothing more than discrimination ... discrimination I tell you ... plain and simple ... plain as the pimple on your behind ... a sore ... a festering sore ... t



". . . . a pimple on a boil on a chancre . . . . ."


----------



## tom ga hunter

weagle, who I meet on 24 Hr, recommended that I try this site out as a good place to rotate my collection.  In the last 3 or so years I have sold my encores here and a bunch of stuff that I no longer wanted.  I have bought some things other people didn't want so we were all happy.

I think the moderators are trying to over control and the market will simply take care of itself. If you want to cut down on band width, cut the number of pictures from 5 to 1 and let the seller email pictures. I would also have an automatic deletion of all adds in S&S at 4 weeks.  As a old retired guy I look at 24 hr & Accurate reloading classifieds, they allow responses and don't seem to have all the moderation problems we have.


----------



## Marlin_444

Such a shame.

Thanks Woody's for all you do!

See you in the woods...

Ron


----------



## Marlin_444

bearpugh said:


> security!



Bartender!


----------



## dbodkin

Isnt this the thread that shouldnt be?  Still interesting...


----------



## Swede

What's for sale?


----------



## Twenty five ought six

UGAGRAD04 said:


> Sorry but that is simply not a good idea.  No way in...heck I'm gonna give out my personal information.  I have nothing to hide but, the only way someone is going to get my information is if I make a deal with them and feel comfortable providing them that information.  My information along with the buyer or seller's information is our business, not this forums or some server with who knows what protections over my information.



Ebay, Gunbroker both require personal information, including a valid credit card.  On ebay, if your contact info (email, telephone number) becomes invalid your account is closed.  Don't know about Gunbroker (and I'm not familiar with other sites). I'm not even suggesting that level of information.  If you don't want to provide minimum verifiable personal information, then you just can't deal on Woody's. 



UGAGRAD04 said:


> When you found out a poster was a dealer and they were banned, do you IP ban them or just ban that particular account?  Why not institute a requirement that no free email services are allowed if you want to post on S&S.  No gmail,no hotmail, etc.  Most if not all IP providers now offer some sort of email, I would think requiring this as well as IP banning dealers would help mitigate some of the riff raff.



That might have been practical at one time, but don't know if it can be enforced.  I don't have an IP provider.  I have an e-mail that at one time came from my provider (AOL) but now it is free.  Again I suggest that if a verifiable physical address and telephone number are provided, most dealers aren't going to the trouble of setting up two, or three.  Also, if a list were maintained of people who had been "outed", members would know who they were dealing with if that name came up again.



dawg2 said:


> We have been banning members/dealers.  For every ONE that gets banned, 10 come to their funeral.  It is like squirrel hunting.



Dang, I want to go squirrel hunting with you some time.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

jbi1104 said:


> Like I told you when we met up.  Public ridicule is the best cure.  Post text under their name with '30 day ban' '60 day ban' choose your poison for infraction.  Works well on many other sites I frequent.  Call it a timeout or what not, but make it part of their online persona for awhile.



yep.

I've suggested before, and I don't know if it's technically possible, but I think the title should remain, and a standard "deleted for not following rules" put in the body of the ad, and PM and email info blocked on that member.  That way the problem children could figure it out on their own.


----------



## bearpugh

i doubt commenting in ads is ever coming back. that requires even more moderating. people get too nasty. we've been there.


----------



## SlowDraw

*Thanks*

First I want to thank the moderators for allowing this post to continue.  Communication is good even though it may go in all directions.

As for me, I always realized the S&S forum was FREE!  As such I was always grateful for those who chose to provide it.  I met alot of great folks and have a few friends because of it.

I will continue to log on and view the various forums and also communicate with those I know only by their GON names.

The S&S, if it returns should have the rules that the moderators feel they can live with.  If it works for them, it will work for me.  After all, anything organized and worthwhile has to have workable system.


----------



## Curly James

I'll miss the S&S but at least my bank account will appreciate the rest.  I did make some good friends after meeting to buy a gun and had net some great guys.  However, I do not blame the owners/mods for shutting it down.   If you paid any attention to the posts there were some folks who were obviously dealers or must have had a humongous gun collection they were selling.  Some of the calls and PMs I recieved were, if not outrageous, then at least just plain weird.   Maybe someday it'll be back, if not, it was not the be all end all for Woody's. There is more to this place than that.


----------



## shaneadams90

First let me say that I appreciate what the moderators do but it was the S&S that brought me to the GON in the first place.

I bought a riding mower off the forum that my brother had found for me. I LOVE guns and selling and trading (mostly buying) and I had finally found a home!  Great people, nice guns, easy and convienient transactions that were all Face to Face....I have met so many great people on this forum and the amount of collective wisdom and knowledge that is here is quite amazing!

I don't hunt or even fish much but I do LOVE TO SHOOT and I take my sons SHOOTING!  I loved this forum and bought and sold a number of guns in a reliatively short time but I am not a dealer.  (never been accused of being one, but there were times when I fit the description based on the volume of guns I was buying/selling/trading simply because I like guns)

Because of the forum I could experiment with other guns and see what I like.  It is a fair market and people could ask whatever they want and I could offer and often we met in the middle and I have purchased (and sold) some heirloom guns that will stay with me and my sons for a long time.  

Because of the S&S I buy GON magazines and was even on my way to subscribing and making it official EVEN THOUGH I don't hunt just to show my support and appreciation for the S&S forum.

I have begun to look at other GON forums, even went on a hog hunt, study up on coyote hunting though I don't have time, and I am frequently jealous of Molly and his hunting adventures....but I am here mostly for the S&S.

I am a member of other sites, some over moderated, and some that self moderate.....they all have the same issues but they have not closed down and penalized the lion-share of the population that enjoy and use them correctly and responsibly.  

This forum has experienced tremendous growth in the last few years and I think many of the problematic posts we hear the admins talk about are newbies (sure there are some idiots that will not follow the rules) and we are experiencing some growing pains for sure.  I just don't think growning pains justify shutting the whole thing down nor do I believe in suffering fools.

Ban the ones that are ruining if for all the rest, educate the newbies, and bring back the forum....If you need help moderating I would volunteer my services...I am on here all the time anyway so I would be happy to pitch in...if you ask, I am betting there are others that would be happy to help even the odds on the morons if it meant bringing back the forum!

JUST ASK! and we can make it happen..

thanks for all you MODS do and thanks for listening.
shane


----------



## tom ga hunter

bearpugh said:


> i doubt commenting in ads is ever coming back. that requires even more moderating. people get too nasty. we've been there.




I am not throwing rocks at the moderators, I am trying to make constructive comments, please consider them as such.


----------



## DeepweR

shawn mills said:


> OK mods... The good guys here have suffered enough! You guys come to a logical solution ( several really good ones have been offered here) and lets get the S&S back up and running! This is a great site with a big family and it really needs the S&S!



I'm with Shawn. Maybe we need a few more moderators to police the s&s...........just a suggestion??????


----------



## boneboy96

Please refrain from posting links to other websites as the post will just get deleted.


----------



## bearpugh

if we get s&s back it'll have to be less labor intensive, not more. instead of more staff we need more members that abide by the rules. telling admins to add staff is not going to convince them its worth their while.


----------



## big john smith

It would be great to see it back, but  can't complain if it doesn't. 
It was free and took a lot of effort, appreciate it mods.


----------



## CTY

Seems to me the main issue is there are too many members and not enough mods and admins to address everything.
So...I guess you could say its closed b/c rules are being broken.
Or you could say....there are too many members and not enough mods to handle the volume.
Either way I appreciate everything the mods do.  
However just simply say its b/c you don't have enough help.  Rules will be broken no matter what...no one is perfect.  10 people work for me and I can't make them follow rules half the time and I see them face to face.
To think you are going to have several thousands of members read several rules for each forum and have them followed is very wishfull thinking.
-
Another crazy idea is..........maybe you have a few too many rules to enforce??  Seems like a lot of red tape......kinda like the gov't


----------



## Johnny_Reb147

Well written Shane.  I concur.
Why punish the masses for the actions of a few?


----------



## Balrog

> Another crazy idea is..........maybe you have a few too many rules to enforce?? Seems like a lot of red tape......kinda like the gov't



What would happen if there were no rules, and people could respond in the threads?

It would be a rough and tumble forum for sure, but what would it matter?


----------



## bearpugh

easier to just not have it.


----------



## Balrog

> easier to just not have it.



Just don't try to regulate it, and let it be what it be.


----------



## bearpugh

yeah, they'll go for that. just send somebody in once a day to sweep up the teeth and eyes.


----------



## WyldeDime

bearpugh said:


> yeah, they'll go for that. just send somebody in once a day to sweep up the teeth and eyes.



Sounds like a bar I go to.

It's funny until some loses an eye...

Then it's hilarious.


----------



## bearpugh

your not gonna use this site to promote another. it will be deleted.


----------



## DeepweR

BEARPUGH, BONEBOY, i know yall want the s&s back.  Look at your itrader feedback. I only hav 23 and i'm going thru withdraws. By the way Boneboy, hows that marlin 39 i sold you shootn'?


----------



## HandgunHTR

Balrog said:


> What would happen if there were no rules, and people could respond in the threads?



It would look like the Classifieds on Accurate Reloading and 24H Campfire.

And by that I mean, filthy language, people airing personal differences in ads, lots of thieves and scam artists, and not a lot of personal interaction at all.

No thanks.



Balrog said:


> It would be a rough and tumble forum for sure, but what would it matter?



It would matter because the founder of this forum wanted to maintain an atmosphere that children can enjoy.  Would you let your 10 year old cruise AR or 24H without you looking over their shoulders?  That is the atmosphere that we are trying to maintain on this forum.


----------



## kmckinnie

I never looked at the S&S,but I want to now!!!!!!!! Good luck to yall!


----------



## Derek Edge

HandgunHTR said:


> It would matter because the founder of this forum wanted to maintain an atmosphere that children can enjoy.  Would you let your 10 year old cruise AR or 24H without you looking over their shoulders?  That is the atmosphere that we are trying to maintain on this forum.



I can absolutely agree with this.  We have many kids and ladies too that would become easy targets for the "not so sane".  I have to admit that I love that about this website.  I've only been a member for I guess about 4 years, but have found this website very helpful and have tried my best to contribute my .02 where it was needed.  I've met many, many friends on here and for that I am grateful.  I've made a couple of boo boo's as far as posting things for sale on the S&S (exceeded the maximum of 5 items one time as I was cleaning out the basement).  Mainly because the rules changed and I didn't pay enough attention to realize it, but, that was my fault.  Again, I've enjoyed the S&S a bunch over the years, but I won't go anywhere if it don't come back.  I've found a few other sites to visit and maybe that will ease my fix on buying/selling.  The thing I liked most about our S&S is that, and I've told a bunch of people this over the years,  if you need anything dealing with hunting/fishing/shooting, you could find it and/or if you needed to sale anything dealing with either, chances were good you could find a good home for it.  Great site guys and keep up the good work!


----------



## UGAGRAD04

243Savage said:


> Aside from the dealer issue, which is huge, it was also an excessive degree of failure to follow the rules.
> 
> Example:  One gun per thread rule.
> 
> What would we see?  2,3,4+ guns per thread posted DESPITE being previously warned about it.
> 
> Example:  One thread per day rule.
> 
> What would we see?  A person making 5+ threads per day DESPITE being previously warned.
> 
> Example:  No selling of reloads rule.
> 
> What would we see?  Reloads being advertised for sale by the lot.
> 
> Example:  All items posted for sale must have a price
> 
> What would we see?  Auctions.  Links to the item on Ebay, etc.
> 
> The whole thing was really spiraling out of control because of the excessive disregard for the rules that many folks practiced.



So by taking away user comments you essentially silenced the self moderation of the community and shifted the burden to a couple of mods.    Sounds to me any of the above mentioned infractions could have easily been solved by other members.  Really the only rule that should have been enforced in comments was no price bashing.  Bash price=one week ban.


----------



## Gaducker

bearpugh said:


> your not gonna use this site to promote another. it will be deleted.



In general conversation before all this uproar it DID NOT matter if another forum was brought up. I have done it plenty of times. Why now is it a problem. I mean If I were to say hey guys if your jonesin for a swap and sell check out -------------  they have a good selection.   That would now be against the law as well?????

I am just trying to understand whats goin on here.


----------



## UGAGRAD04

HandgunHTR said:


> It would look like the Classifieds on Accurate Reloading and 24H Campfire.
> 
> And by that I mean, filthy language, people airing personal differences in ads, lots of thieves and scam artists, and not a lot of personal interaction at all.
> 
> No thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> It would matter because the founder of this forum wanted to maintain an atmosphere that children can enjoy.  *Would you let your 10 year old cruise AR or 24H without you looking over their shoulders?*  That is the atmosphere that we are trying to maintain on this forum.



I wouldn't let my 10 year old on any website without myself or my wife monitoring what he/she is looking at.


----------



## Gaducker

UGAGRAD04 said:


> I wouldn't let my 10 year old on any website without myself or my wife monitoring what he/she is looking at.



True dat,


----------



## packrat

*???*



UGAGRAD04 said:


> Then how is it you're posting?  Stealing your neighbors wifi?



Jumping wireless and cracking pass-codes is my department. I refuse to jump on an unsecured network, it's not very sportsman-like. Kinda like fenced hunts and shooting fish in a bucket.


----------



## bearpugh

its always been against the rules to promote another site here. same on most sites. you think its fair we should shut down our s&s, then let the same folks use us to find a replacement? nah.


----------



## Gaducker

bearpugh said:


> its always been against the rules to promote another site here. same on most sites. you think its fair we should shut down our s&s, then let the same folks use us to find a replacement? nah.



It may not be fair but thats whats happening, slowly but surely.  And yall know why its happening, If you need it and cant find it, at some point you will always go lookin for it.


----------



## bearpugh

deep'we R said:


> BEARPUGH, BONEBOY, i know yall want the s&s back.  Look at your itrader feedback. I only hav 23 and i'm going thru withdraws. By the way Boneboy, hows that marlin 39 i sold you shootn'?



of course. we never wanted to lose it. but theres only 2 of us. being disabled allowed me more time here than other mods who work fulltime. for every violation i fixed another was there. it never ended. were not talking about a handful of people breaking rules here. so finally the admins got sick of it. out of the entire site, our dept. is the one that always needed attention.


----------



## bearpugh

Gaducker said:


> It may not be fair but thats whats happening, slowly but surely.  And yall know why its happening, If you need it and cant find it, at some point you will always go lookin for it.



of course. i go to lots of sites. but if you post here looking i have to take action. you can ask friends, google or whatever.


----------



## Gaducker

bearpugh said:


> of course. i go to lots of sites. but if you post here looking i have to take action. you can ask friends, google or whatever.



Just talk em into bringin it back


----------



## bearpugh

doin' our best, but this has been festerin' for years.


----------



## Big Mike

germag said:


> I really hate that it came to that because of a few clowns that couldn't follow the rules or just figured the rules didn't apply to them....but at least we'll find out now which ones were here just for the S&S to sell guns........and which ones are here for the forums and hanging out with friends and the S&S was just a bonus.


 

I agree Germag. I can wait for the S&S. I don't have any money anyway. What I do have is questions about hunting, shooting and reloading.


----------



## stevetarget

*I'll Help.*

Not having the swap and sell is a big deal to me.  I use to log in every few hours to see if there were any smoking deals on here. I have sold or traded a fair amount of items and enjoyed meeting every one I have done business with. I also read several of the other forums and participated in them too. We can't get the S&S back by complaining so how about this...
 I volunteer to be a mod and help you mods out, all you got to do is hook me up with the power and restart the swap and sell. 
Steve


----------



## NGIB

I actually completed the swap I arranged on the day S&S closed last night.  One for the road I guess and I even left positive feedback this morning for the fella in case it ever comes back...


----------



## whiskerz

It sounds like most of the problems are with the gun boards. How about until you can figure out working rules for those , you bring the others back. I was looking at trucks. I liked the boards because they are local and are a great way to get rid of extra stuff without shipping and to guys who are like minded , Unlike some local sites.     
Having the ads fall off after 8 weeks would save  bandwidth as would a limit of less pictures. I notice the time limit rule did slow how fast the ads fell to the back which was nice since I am not on a lot .  
   How about making dealers pay for the ads and giving them dealer status and letting that go to operating cost of the site. I am on other sites that are successful and do just that. I read the post from about a deal where the guy wanted a 4473 and tax. I have never had that happen here.


----------



## bearpugh

were not interested in selling out our "private" s&s to dealers. we have member services for them. as far as the other areas, theres just as many rule violations there.


----------



## NOYDB

So....

Where's the pool for when this thread hits 500 posts?


----------



## bearpugh

NOYDB said:


> So....
> 
> Where's the pool for when this thread hits 500 posts?



noydb


----------



## dthstlkr

*S$p*

i agree with the boot the perpetrators but why do the rest of us have to suffer for a few badapples will miss the S&P


----------



## jatienza

Please bring back the Swap & Sell...


----------



## sogafishin

I sure miss the S&S also.Made a few good friends from trading here.


----------



## wallacem

I really would like to see the site reopened, maybe I was living a sheltered life, but I always thought the site was great. Thought it was patroled a little too close, but maybe I did not see what was going on. Again, would like to see it again, it was the bright part of my day.  Wallacem


----------



## MudDucker

redlevel said:


> ". . . . a pimple on a boil on a chancre . . . . ."



See there, there are others who understand how deep this problem is.


----------



## LaRue

bearpugh said:


> easier to just not have it.



If this is the case.....then why can we not refer people to another site where they can be out of your hair so you won't have to worry about complainers or questions.


----------



## Nicodemus

I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?


----------



## Nicodemus

Don`t everbody go runnin` off. I was just askin`, not takin` notes.


----------



## rbstern

I originally joined for the swap and sell a couple of years ago, but over time, began enjoying the other forums.


----------



## hoboken911

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



I post mainly in the Swap and Sell, but I frequent other parts of the forum.  It's a shame the Swap and Sell has been shut down, I was just fixing to list a XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX for $300.  

Oh well, maybe when it opens back up.


----------



## wallacem

My main interest is shooting and swapping guns with just a little converstaion in  the other areas. Would like to see Swap and sell dome back.  Wallacem


----------



## boneboy96

hoboken911 said:


> I post mainly in the Swap and Sell, but I frequent other parts of the forum.  It's a shame the Swap and Sell has been shut down, I was just fixing to list a X for $300.
> 
> Oh well, maybe when it opens back up.



sounds like you just did!


----------



## rbstern

hoboken911 said:


> I post mainly in the Swap and Sell, but I frequent other parts of the forum.  It's a shame the Swap and Sell has been shut down, I was just fixing to list a X for $300
> Oh well, maybe when it opens back up.





Maybe there could be a secret swap and sell language that would escape moderation.

"17qt tupperware container, in the refrigerator overnight only a handful of times, looks and works perfectly; would like to trade for another container with larger top opening, prefer same brand, but others considered"

Translation:

"Glock model 17, like new condition, only shot at the range a few times, want to trade for Glock in 45acp, but Springfield, S&W, Sig, etc., also considered."


----------



## Spurhunter1

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



I found GON because of the S&S but I do read lots of other stuff, and post when I think I have something to say.


----------



## gobbleinwoods

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



came to GON for the bear hunting threads.  now frequent Poli, drivelers, and food!!!.   I looked and contacted some of the people on S&S with interest.  Do miss it but not a deal breaker.


----------



## Derek Edge

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



I visit about all the forums and always have Nic.  My favorites though are Deer Hunting, Firearms, Bowhunting, Primitive, Freshwater Fishing, Outdoor Cafe (my most fav) and the Hobbies Forum.  I have numerous comments on most all though.


----------



## famdoc2892

*Keep up the good work!*

First off, my heartfelt thanks and hats off to the mods that shoulder the load day in and day out!  To a man (and woman), I have found them to be salt-of-the-earth folks who care about this forum and the family it promotes.

I spent most of my quick glances on the S&S, most of my research/questions/comments in the other threads.   Really added to my gun collection over the last couple of years, and had some adventures in selling, too!

I enjoy the S&S, willing to shoulder more of the load to make it work, but will be here like clockwork as I improve my guns/loads, need hunting advice, look for garden/food plot advice,  etc., etc.

God bless you every one, we're with you!


----------



## GA DAWG

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?


Not me..I didnt even know it was gone I have sold some stuff on there and will miss it..I see no reason why all the swap and sell had to go when the firearms one was causing all the trouble...


----------



## cruisers460

Found the S&S while Googling up something, that brought me here. I usually check it several times per day just to see what pops up. Since finding the GON site my visits typically are a quick look at S&S and then a trip over to this forum to spend a few moments browsing it. Will dropping the S&S stop me from using this website.......No... will it slow down the number of visits that I make to it? Yes, I would have to say it will. The possibility of a good deal (hard to find on S&S lately) would always make me come back more often. I can always set and read through the forums....you have to be on here more often to catch a deal! Sort of like fishing and hunting, the big ones get past when your not there!


----------



## 243Savage

Folks...leave the links to other forums/websites out of this conversation please.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

rbstern said:


> Maybe there could be a secret swap and sell language that would escape moderation.
> 
> "17qt tupperware container, in the refrigerator overnight only a handful of times, looks and works perfectly; would like to trade for another container with larger top opening, prefer same brand, but others considered"
> 
> Translation:
> 
> "Glock model 17, like new condition, only shot at the range a few times, want to trade for Glock in 45acp, but Springfield, S&W, Sig, etc., also considered."


 

I think that I know what you mean --

I have 100 SHOT glasses, I only drank ONE SHOT from each of them.  The only shots that I drank from them were COLT 45.  Might condsider trading for *357 *of some other type SHOT glass that you only drank ONE SHOT from.


----------



## NOYDB

Binocs, near mint only looked thru twice on cloudy days, lots of glass left.


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## bearpugh

were they broke in properly before you looked thru them?


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## VolFan1nGA

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



Honest answer. I joined specifically for the S&S section. And enjoyed it a lot until the ability to post a reply was taken away. It then turned into an auction site, make that a blind auction site, where the highest bidder won. No, not on every transaction but way too many.

I was never asked, advised or otherwise notified that I had to participate in other parts of the forum or be somebody's friend. I'm interested in all kinds of firearms as well as technical info on them. I'm not a hunter or fisherman. I do camp and went to sections concerning that once in a while. And during the 16 months I have been a member I have exchanged over 380 private messages with other members which to me is a far better guage of use of the forum than posts in a specific forum.

My honest and personal opinion? I think the rules of a fair market society would have taken care of the problem. As I remember it the problems started when "poachers" began gobbling up ammo and reselling it on here, not dealers. I even personally bought some 9mm ammo once and resold it on here for practically face value just so some of them would choke on the ammo they were trying to price gouge. I think the older members were on the verge of taking care of it themselves. I also think the forum administrators over-reacted, then and now. But that is their right as well.

I do miss the shoppin' as well as the occasional compliment posted to someone's nice firearm for sale. And every transaction I was involved in was smooth and a pleasure.


----------



## bearpugh

I was never asked, advised or otherwise notified that I had to participate in other parts of the forum or be somebody's friend. I'm interested in all kinds of firearms as well as technical info on them.




there's the issue. if you read the rules you agreed to when you joined, it states that s&s is here for members that contribute in other parts of the forum.


----------



## Juiceb23

Intiatially I came here for the swap and sell.  I now actively browse lots of other areas.  I thought it was kind of lame that here recently you couldn't say hey buddy that's an awesome __________(insert item description), but it didn't deter me. The site is cool the folks are good folks that's why I'm still here the S&S was just a good place to look for whatever you might need.


----------



## no clever name

I was also referred here for the swap and sell and joined specifically to buy something in the swap and sell.  

The other forums are nice to have and I'll look through them occasionally but the main reason I used to come here on a daily basis, usually several times a day was the S&S.  

I would usually check out this forum, the gunsmithing forum and the handgun hunting forum before going to other sites but again the main reason I came here was the s&s.

Here's the obligatory pic of a gun I just picked up yesterday, of course I found it on another site.


----------



## NGxplr22

The S&S was nice, but this place has so much more to offer. I learn something new everytime I log on and have made a couple of new friends in my short time here.
To be honest I've yet to set foot in probably half of the forums here. I'm trying to check them out a few at a time.

If the S&S comes back then that'll be great. If it doesn't that's fine too.


----------



## ben300win

I miss the S&S. I look thru several of the forums, but the S & S was the bread and butter of this site to me.


----------



## Joker

Obama would be proud ,he also would like to control the sale and swapping of guns in this "free country"


----------



## Ga-Bullet

I Spent About 85% Of My Time On S&S,An Still Do. It's Just Now On Another Forum..


----------



## lt1owner

Really I only check out the S&S not much of an outdoors man. I would like to see it come back. People afraid of crooks should do what I do and only deal with people wih positive feedback.


----------



## DeepweR

thats a nice truck u got there BEARPUGH. 64or 65 stepside? NIC  u no i aint here just for s&s u busted me about a month ago for cussing on a post. It wasnt in s&s. Man yall gota bring it back.


----------



## 243Savage

Joker said:


> Obama would be proud ,he also would like to control the sale and swapping of guns in this "free country"



Before making unfounded comments, if you would take the time to read and understand this as most everyone has:  http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=4930848#post4930848

You'll discover it's not about _"controlling the sale and swapping of guns in this free country"_


----------



## CraigS1001

If I were an advertiser here, I would want the S&S forums to be active as it draws more hits/people/visits to the site to possible buy their product.  There is no doubt a "daily hit count" reduction because of the S&S termination and hits is what advertisers look for when investing their dollars!

I bought several items off the S&S, got ripped once by a "vendor" that was abusing the policy.  I learned this after the fact and it is one of those live and learn deals.  The other deals were excellent "private" owners.

I hope the S&S comes back but I also enjoy browsing the the forums....the trail cameras and bragging boards are my favs.


----------



## fuelman1

Joker said:


> Obama would be proud ,he also would like to control the sale and swapping of guns in this "free country"



Yeah, that will help get the s&s back. Rip the folks that provide you with an excellent and free service. It's called " constructive" criticism. You should try it sometime.


----------



## chiefsquirrel83

s&s helped me make some extra money for my new bow and things for my house....but I do agree...alot of dealers were sneaking in, outrageous used item prices...and people not responding to offers....luckily this forum has alot of great threads, posts, and members!!! As long as we got Crackerdave and CletusT postin' I am happy!


----------



## Hawkeye7

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



I must admit that a friend turned me onto the S&S. I strayed over to the deer hunting and firearms forums. From there I slipped over to the gunsmithing, freshwater fishing, and the bragging board. The trail camera forum is interesting to me also. I did enjoy the S&S and I did give a home to some folks unwanted items. I do miss it (my wife doesn't). I enjoyed looking (and buying) at the guns, reels, and boats but if it must end so be it.
The forums are a good place to tap into the experience and knowledge of many sportsmen. I'll never be too old to learn. My favorite is seeing that youngster with that first deer. 
Maybe a swap and sell event could be held in different locations in the state. A big ole GON flea market of sorts. We could even put a boxing ring up too. Some of the threads get kind of heated.


----------



## Darrenmd

I did buy and sell over S&S, but I have found another site similar to S&S. I do like reading through the various other threads. I still plan on continuing to do that..... I still hope S&S starts up again....


----------



## georgia357

NOYDB said:


> So....
> 
> Where's the pool for when this thread hits 500 posts?





bearpugh said:


> noydb



Citizens arrest, citizens arrest!!


----------



## bearpugh

you ain't right.


----------



## Hooked On Quack

bearpugh said:


> you ain't right.




Ouch, that hurt, stop it!!


----------



## NOYDB

I found this site thru the main GON portal. As a suscriber I was looking to see what they had online. All the local information from people that live and hunt here is a treasure. 

I didn't pay any attention to S&S for a couple years, but when I wanted a used riding mower I started looking there. I didn't want to use Craigslist because of their anti-gun policies. Then the bug bit and I started picking up a few guns to round out my arsenal.

So S&S was useful but not the main reason I joined or stayed. I would like to have it, because I enjoyed dealing with other Woody's members. However, I understand there's not enough time and money to deal with every two legged snake that takes advantage of the rest of us.


----------



## rc512002

I have checked the other sites out since this has closed they dont come close to this one i hope to see it reopen and soon so i can get some new guns. (hate to buy new ones)


----------



## Sugar Plum

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?




Must have been a LOT of people...a week ago I logged in and clicked NEW POSTS to see at least 15 or so pages. Now, I haven't seen more than 7 at a time.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



Swap and what???


----------



## Gaducker

bearpugh said:


> noydb



Is that typing around the censor?


----------



## bobman

I'll miss it, my interests are bird dogs and their training and archery. 



I never sold anything on it but I have bought guns without any problem.

The poster above has a good point about why all of it went away if the problem was the firearms part???

I am not looking for new friends or hunting tactics, not that I'm anti social just don't have the time in my busy life for social networking type stuff.

Maybe I am a little anti-social. I like my solitude.


----------



## DrifterBob

*re: S&S*

Sure appreciate the work  the mods have done and sure met a lot of nice folks here and even made a few trades. Wish you could bring it back, it is greatly missed. I enjoy the other sections too but in particular miss this one.

Bob


----------



## Michael F. Gray

Found the site almost by accident. Never listed anything for sell, but have made several purchases. I admit to missing S & S, and checked the site daily for S & S first. Also enjoy the other forums. I don't pretend to understand why it has been shut down, nor am I trying to attend to someone else's business. I do miss S & S and hope those offending parties will not cause a continuing loss for those who complied with the forum policies.


----------



## ironhead7544

I never bought or sold anything on S&S but enjoyed looking at the stuff people want to sell.  I saw something I wanted and dug up the cash.  When I went back to GON the S&S was gone.  I really like the site and have learned much from it about many things.  Sometimes I post answers to questions I see.  I will keep coming back.


----------



## zx12hoss

weagle said:


> Been a member here and on a lot of firearms forums for years and the very best swap and sell forums are the LEAST moderated.
> 
> Woody's used to be like that and it ran well.
> 
> I still love the GON forums, but have pretty much ignored the S&S since it took on the personality of a Dunwoody neighborhood association meeting.
> 
> Weagle



I have to agree with that.My wife was in the hospital and I was out of work for a month along with taxes being due so I need to sell some stuff.After posting acouple of ads and getting acouple violations I had to turn to craigslist and pawn shops to sell my 4 wheelers and guns.

It really has suprised me it has lasted as long as it has.Most websites start out great and then turn bad within a year or two.


----------



## mike bell

I only traded for some ammo one time last year, but I was always checking S&S.  sometimes three or four times a day.  And Ive been a member for a long time. Since the 90's I think.   I love Woody's but I miss the S&S.


----------



## EMC-GUN

I really like S&S, but also frequented (and still do) the hunting, reloading, and gunsmithing sections too.


----------



## Ga Sportsman

NOYDB said:


> All the Glock guys must be going thru withdrawal.



I do miss it, but I don't guess I'm going thru withdrawals......Didn't have any money to spend anyway.  There are a couple other "Swap and Sell" sites that I visit but I still come here too.....Would like to see it back, but doubt if I'll lose sleep if it doesn't.  I have a WHOLE LOT of other things to worry about than if the S&S is open or not.


----------



## Wes

I vote for keeping the S&S. I used it on occasion and could live without it and I it seems like we could find a way to bring it back to life. Its the only good local (Georgia) way to buy and sell stuff that I know of. 

Maybe we could have an authorized dealer forum where they pay money to sell their goods and a separate good ole boy forum.

Or maybe everyone has to send in a copy of photo id to the mods to prove they are legit and then they have permission to swap and sell? They can get the email with the photo id pic, authorize the user, and then delete it and no ones important information is lost. If someone is busted as a dealer, they would have to produce another drivers license to get back on the board. I would imagine no one wants on the board that badly. 

Just some ideas. Post yours and maybe we come up with a solution.


----------



## bearpugh

how bout users wear shock collars. when you mess up, zzzzzt!


----------



## DrifterBob

How about putting in an autodelete feature on the listings (not on users, ouch!) so that after a couple of weeks if an item didn't sell the listing would automatically be removed? Seems that would save a lot of webspace and monitering as well. I sure hope the S&S will come back soon.


----------



## kmckinnie

bearpugh said:


> how bout users wear shock collars. when you mess up, zzzzzt!



Where would U place the shock collar before I answer this question?


----------



## bearpugh

kmckinnie said:


> Where would U place the shock collar before I answer this question?



um....


----------



## kmckinnie

I looked in now and then on $ & $ ,was not the reason to Join! I hope yall come up with some way to reopen it! I'm gun poor as it is! I should of looked for a good cheappppppp blank blank when it was open! HINDSIGHT 20-20 hope this wakes up the ones.......nevermind it won't!


----------



## akiahunter

really miss the s&s already. bought some really good stuff from some good folks off here. hope to see it back soon, dont want turn to the fake crap people on the drama filled, robbin, murderin, scammincraigslist


----------



## JohnK

lwrd81 said:


> Well I miss it anyway.......but found another place just as good


 
Sure you did, you might include a link for your gon buddies


----------



## Ga-Bullet

Seem in The Old Days, All Run Fine. Now Everyones a moderator{Not knocking Them, Just Saying}.And Just as Weagle Said The Best Forums Are The Least Moderated. Give it Time, The Swap and Sells Gone, will Hurt the Place. It May Take a Few Month, But the People will Stop Coming,And So Will The Advertisers.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

243Savage said:


> Folks...leave the links to other forums/websites out of this conversation please.





JohnK said:


> Sure you did, you might include a link for your gon buddies



Maybe there's a reason.


----------



## Phantoms

UGAGRAD04 said:


> When you found out a poster was a dealer and they were banned, do you IP ban them or just ban that particular account?  Why not institute a requirement that no free email services are allowed if you want to post on S&S.  No gmail,no hotmail, etc.  Most if not all IP providers now offer some sort of email, I would think requiring this as well as IP banning dealers would help mitigate some of the riff raff.



My main email is a gmail one. I'm sure I'm not the only one like this. Many people rely on free email accounts as their main email account. Some smaller ISPs don't provide email themselves and just give instructions on opening a yahoo, hotmail, etc. account. Some people, such as myself, have a non-ISP account because if I change ISPs in the future, I do not want to go through the hassle of updating everything I've ever gave my email address too, all my contacts, etc.


----------



## Phantoms

Balrog said:


> What would happen if there were no rules, and people could respond in the threads?
> 
> It would be a rough and tumble forum for sure, but what would it matter?



I think it may help. Members have a tendency to help police the place. They will call out a dealer or scammer for sure.


----------



## HandgunHTR

Phantoms said:


> I think it may help. Members have a tendency to help police the place. They will call out a dealer or scammer for sure.



That may be the case, but unfortunately, they have also proven that they can't do it in a G-rated way.  They want to behave like this is 24-hour Campfire or something, which we will not tolerate.  That is the main reason that replies to ads were taken away.

Just remember folks, that the best form of moderation for any website is between the brain and fingers of the MEMBER and we have seen plenty of proof that there are a lot of people who don't possess the _self-discipline_ to use it.  Therefore we must "punish the masses for the sins of the few" or resort to anarchy (which isn't going to happen).


----------



## Balrog

Do you have any idea why this forum seemed to have such problems with S&S?  Every firearm forum I go to has a S&S section, and none of them have ever closed.

Maybe you need more moderators on the S&S forum?


----------



## redlevel

I believe the equine is deceased.


----------



## bearpugh

you might ask, if all these other self moferated forums are so great how come everyone wants this one. it's because we do have rules and standards. some don't care for an anything goes attitude. if you like that then go there. its a free country. but here people will be held to a higher standard and a g rating to participate. i go to the other sites. if you like having your ad sabotaged because someone doesn't agree with your price, fine. not gonna happen here.


----------



## kmckinnie

bearpugh said:


> you might ask, if all these other self moferated forums are so great how come everyone wants this one. it's because we do have rules and standards. some don't care for an anything goes attitude. if you like that then go there. its a free country. but here people will be held to a higher standard and a g rating to participate. i go to the other sites. if you like having your ad sabotaged because someone doesn't agree with your price, fine. not gonna happen here.



Well said!!!!!!!!!


----------



## shaneadams90

It seems that what I am hearing are some really frustrated, overworked mods voicing the same arguments over and over.  

What I am also hearing are a number of other people volunteering their time and efforts to help relieve some of the current administrations work load. 

Moderators have admitted that they are punishing the many for the actions of a few. I have heard many logical arguments for solving the issues but the mods seem reluctant to embrace the viability of any. (I may have missed one but I have been reading this post with great interest).  The most logical and easiest to impliment os more mannpower. 

Can the moderators give an account of WHY none of these solutions seem to be good enough. It seems that there are a huge number of people that want the S&S to reopen, and more importantly, are willing to help preserve the Integrity and original spirit for which it was created. So why then is this not an option.  It seems like commonsense to me but I may be missing something.

My .02 is that many hands make light work.


----------



## bearpugh

the mods don't make these decisions. adding more mods may well be the answer. its up to the admins. they have the decision power. we have some imput but the decision is theirs. we mods simply enforce the rules, whatever they be. i'm sure all the ideas folks are giving are being taken into consideration.


----------



## shaneadams90

Then would it be possible to hear what the admins have to say?  Communication is this thread has been very favorable for reopening the S&S but the communication has been mostly one way.  

Admins can you please give us some feedback?


----------



## bearpugh

you can pm an admin anytime. they don't have a policy of discussing rules or policy in open forum.


----------



## Balrog

> you might ask, if all these other self moferated forums are so great how come everyone wants this one. it's because we do have rules and standards. some don't care for an anything goes attitude. if you like that then go there. its a free country. but here people will be held to a higher standard and a g rating to participate. i go to the other sites. if you like having your ad sabotaged because someone doesn't agree with your price, fine. not gonna happen here.



I don't see that happening in other forums to any significant degree.  If someone posts obscene comments, or tries to pick a fight, they ban them instead of closing the whole thing down.

I liked S&S here because everyone was GA residents, so private sales could be done face to face without using an FFL.


----------



## tom ga hunter

balrog said:


> i don't see that happening in other forums to any significant degree.  If someone posts obscene comments, or tries to pick a fight, they ban them instead of closing the whole thing down.
> 
> I liked s&s here because everyone was ga residents, so private sales could be done face to face without using an ffl.




++1


----------



## shawn mills

shaneadams90 said:


> then would it be possible to hear what the admins have to say?  Communication is this thread has been very favorable for reopening the s&s but the communication has been mostly one way.
> 
> Admins can you please give us some feedback?



x2!


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Balrog said:


> I liked S&S here because everyone was GA residents, so private sales could be done face to face without using an FFL.


 
Not true. There were quite a few from out of state.


----------



## shaneadams90

bearpugh said:


> you can pm an admin anytime. they don't have a policy of discussing rules or policy in open forum.



Maybe now is the time to step out from behind the curtain and start having an OPEN and tactful discussion about how WE can solve this in the best possible way. 

I hear alot of people saying they are willing to help and an eerie silence from behind the vail. I beleive the solution is here and furthermore believe that it can be handled in a way that would keep everyone happier. 
Thanks for listening 
Shane


----------



## ticeman

Balrog said:


> I don't see that happening in other forums to any significant degree.  If someone posts obscene comments, or tries to pick a fight, they ban them instead of closing the whole thing down.
> 
> I liked S&S here because everyone was GA residents, so private sales could be done face to face without using an FFL.



Incorrect, I'm from out of state and have bought and sold guns here without issue.


----------



## Balrog

> Not true. There were quite a few from out of state.



There were a few, you were correct, but most were from here in Georgia.



> Incorrect, I'm from out of state and have bought and sold guns here without issue.



And if you did it without an FFL involved, you broke federal law.


----------



## holler tree

dont know if this question has already been asked but could it be set up where any ad posted in the s&s had to be approved by a mod. before it was posted ? who cares if they post instantly I would like to see them re open someday what ever it takes. if this could happen it sounds like a good job for some good responsible people who have already said they would like to help out.


----------



## Bamafan4life

I was a swapaholic on here. i was on here about 3 weeks and 90% of my web browsing was on that forum, i did use other forums on here but not like the s&s. i would be a moderator if yall brought it back.


----------



## jbarron

Question to Admin:   Were you in any way pressured by the Government to shut down S&S?


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

shaneadams90 said:


> Maybe now is the time to step out from behind the curtain and start having an OPEN and tactful discussion about how WE can solve this in the best possible way.
> Shane


 


I love this thread. It is blatant evidence that folks still don't know how to read the rules...


----------



## bearpugh

jbarron said:


> Question to Admin:   Were you in any way pressured by the Government to shut down S&S?



good lord.


----------



## shaneadams90

Miguel Cervantes said:


> I love this thread. It is blatant evidence that folks still don't know how to read the rules...



Miguel
I am not sure what rule I have broken or if you think I am asking admins and moderators to break a rule. I understand that admins and mods do not like to post in open forums but I feel that based on the response to this thread a response from them seems to be missing. As Paul Harvey would say " the rest of the story". 

I ask because I care and greatly enjoy the s&s and would like to see it back and it looks like I am not alone.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

bearpugh said:


> good lord.


 




shaneadams90 said:


> Miguel
> I am not sure what rule I have broken or if you think I am asking admins and moderators to break a rule. I understand that admins and mods do not like to post in open forums but I feel that based on the response to this thread a response from them seems to be missing. As Paul Harvey would say " the rest of the story".
> 
> I ask because I care and greatly enjoy the s&s and would like to see it back and it looks like I am not alone.


 

It's in red for a reason 


http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=3580631&postcount=1

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*Rules & Guidelines* 
<HR style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: #e8ddc6; COLOR: #e8ddc6" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Woody's Campfire Talk of Georgia Outdoor News Forums, hereinafter The Forum, is a private Forum. Membership in the Forum is a privilege granted solely and exclusively by the Forum. Privileges may be terminated at any time at the sole discretion of the Forum and without notice.

The rules are not open for discussion on the open forums. If you have issues or concerns or questions about a rule feel free to PM a mod or admin and as always your concerns or suggestions will be taken into consideration. Do not use the open forum to "call out" a mod or admin for implementation of the rules.

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## Nicodemus

jbarron said:


> Question to Admin:   Were you in any way pressured by the Government to shut down S&S?





You have got to be kiddin`????? Not hardly. And you can believe that.



I did not post this thread for it to become what is is now. For the time bein`, I will let it stay, but if it blows up, I will get rid of it.


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## AQHARoper

What about 2 sections in the swap and sell? One for dealers and one for private sales. If someone breaks the rules-- they are out of here. No warnings or chances.


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## packrat

*????????*



jbarron said:


> Question to Admin:   Were you in any way pressured by the Government to shut down S&S?





Nicodemus said:


> You have got to be kiddin`????? Not hardly. And you can believe that.
> 
> 
> 
> I did not post this thread for it to become what is is now. For the time bein`, I will let it stay, but if it blows up, I will get rid of it.



Nic ain't afraid of no Fed.
They ask him for permission to move.
SIC 'EM NIC


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## dawg2

A lot of the sugestions are being considered.  There are many options available regarding the S&S forum.  Right now, there is no "Yes," "No," or "Maybe" answer.  It was shut down due to abuses by dealers.  Until we have a viable, fair, and effective resolution, it will remain in that state. It was not shut down to punish anyone.  We just had to hit the "Pause" button.


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## bearpugh

the admins have been nice enough to let us have this thread so members could express their feelings about the s&s. but if it turns sour and becomes a witchhunt it'll be gone.


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## bearpugh

AQHARoper said:


> What about 2 sections in the swap and sell? One for dealers and one for private sales. If someone breaks the rules-- they are out of here. No warnings or chances.



we already had that. member services was for dealers. not good enough.


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## jigman29

Why don't you have it where people can post 5 times a month in the s&s.That way even if a person is a dealer it won't be benificial to them in a great way because they couldn't move a lot of stuff.


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## Brassman

Patience, Bearpugh, Patience.


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## LaRue

You should just refer people to the other sites.

There are already too many...and then it'll keep the problems away from you.


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## Dead Eye Eddy

jigman29 said:


> Why don't you have it where people can post 5 times a month in the s&s.That way even if a person is a dealer it won't be benificial to them in a great way because they couldn't move a lot of stuff.



No max posts per day/week/month/year rules will work because people don't read the rules.

As a former S&S MOD, IMHO, no number of rules will work unless we do two things.  First, the punishment for violating them needs to be more severe.  Instead of issuing infractions, I vote for issuing suspensions.  In other words, break a rule, get temporarily banned from the entire site.  For example, 1 week for the first offense, 1 month for the second, 1 year for the third.  Second, it needs to be more difficult for banned/suspended members to get back on the site.  Every member who wishes to use the S&S should have to put some form of verifiable personal information on file.  I'm not sure how to accomplish this, but a credit card would definitely work, possibly something less damaging to your identity.


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## Balrog

I think if you require ID or a credit card, no one would join the S&S.



> No max posts per day/week/month/year rules will work because people don't read the rules.



Somre forums are set up so that you can only make one post in a short period of time, I guess to prevent stuff from accidentally being posted twice.  Why not just set the time so you can make one post per 5 days in swap and sell, and the computer automatically locks you out for 5 days after you make the post?  Could the software do that?


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## bearpugh

if they won't follow the 1 gun per day rule, why would they follow 1 per week?? rules won't help when people won't read or abide by them.


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## Marlin_444

Nicodemus said:


> I`m curious, how many of you are here just for the Swap and Sell, and don`t go to any other part of this forum?



Hey Nic, 

I am sure there are a few... I have friends and family here and this is an "old home place" for me... 

I've made a few mistakes and have tried to do right by them. 

If it was me, I ask to be forgiven and I'll do better; if it was someone else well I am sure Woody himself would work out something for them.

We appreciate all that Woody's does for us and I look forward to logging in each day to see what is new and exciting. 

Without the Swap & Sell, well that just takes away my time from being here...

See you in the woods!

Ron


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## bearpugh

Marlin_444 said:


> Hey Nic,
> 
> I am sure there are a few... I have friends and family here and this is an "old home place" for me...
> 
> I've made a few mistakes and have tried to do right by them.
> 
> If it was me, I ask to be forgiven and I'll do better; if it was someone else well I am sure Woody himself would work out something for them.
> 
> We appreciate all that Woody's does for us and I look forward to logging in each day to see what is new and exciting.
> 
> Without the Swap & Sell, well that just takes away my time from being here...
> 
> See you in the woods!
> 
> Ron



dang ron, i've never known you to be anything less than an upstanding and respected member of this forum. your certainly not the problem. wish we had 56000 more like you.


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## Balrog

> if they won't follow the 1 gun per day rule, why would they follow 1 per week?? rules won't help when people won't read or abide by them.



Set the software so that you can only post once per week in S&S... its not up to the person to follow any rules, the computer follows them.


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## bearpugh

Balrog said:


> Set the software so that you can only post once per week in S&S... its not up to the person to follow any rules, the computer follows them.



totally out of my element there. but i'm sure the bosses know all the software capabilities n stuff.


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## NOYDB

I wonder if there is some tools available in the BB software to help.  Maybe contacting some of the other forum admins to see what they have found that might help. Why reinvent the wheel. Those two legged snakes have plagued others before.


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## Balrog

> totally out of my element there. but i'm sure the bosses know all the software capabilities n stuff.



I don't even know if what I have suggested (ie, having the software set to prevent more than 1 post per week on S&S) is even possible.  I do know that on some forums, they set it so you can only make one post every few minutes to prevent double taps and spammers.

Maybe your admins know.  If you could make it so the computer would accept only one ad per week per IP address, maybe that would solve some of the problems?


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## specialk

dawg2 said:


> A lot of the sugestions are being considered.  There are many options available regarding the S&S forum.  Right now, there is no "Yes," "No," or "Maybe" answer.  It was shut down due to abuses by dealers.  Until we have a viable, fair, and effective resolution, it will remain in that state. It was not shut down to punish anyone.  We just had to hit the "Pause" button.



please hurry, there's back rooms full of guns piling up and no where to sell them


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## georgia357

dawg2 said:


> A lot of the sugestions are being considered.  There are many options available regarding the S&S forum.  Right now, there is no "Yes," "No," or "Maybe" answer.  It was shut down due to abuses by dealers.  Until we have a viable, fair, and effective resolution, it will remain in that state. It was not shut down to punish anyone.  We just had to hit the "Pause" button.





redneckcamo said:


> a ray of hope shines



I just hope the light I see at the end of the tunnel ain't a train.


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## bearpugh

lol, i like that avatar.


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## LEON MANLEY

I have been to some other sights and I really liked the 5 day repost rule that we had on GON.

 You want to look at new post and it's full of a bunch of crap that you saw 8 hours ago.

If there was a way to flag any post that the average member might think was outside the rules, the mods and admins. would not have to look far to catch an offender.

Ban any offender for one month the first offence.
 This should give them plenty of time to read the rules.

As for the second offence, ban for a year or maybe forever.
If they have a second offence they probably can't be fixed, so might as well get rid of them.

Man I miss the S&S.


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## Twenty five ought six

"I have been to some other sights and I really liked the 5 day repost rule that we had on GON.  Problem is, too many people failed to read or abide by the rules.  You can't check it now because the forum are closed, but the "views" of the rules were a tiny fraction of the number of posters in S&S, proving that most of the posters never bothered reading the rules.

 You want to look at new post and it's full of a bunch of crap that you saw 8 hours ago.  See above.

If there was a way to flag any post that the average member might think was outside the rules, the mods and admins. would not have to look far to catch an offender.  Look at the little road sign red and white icon in the upper right hand of this post.  That can be used to report any post.

Ban any offender for one month the first offence.
 This should give them plenty of time to read the rules. or register a new name.

As for the second offence, ban for a year or maybe forever.
If they have a second offence they probably can't be fixed, so might as well get rid of them.

Man I miss the S&S.


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## UGAGRAD04

Twenty five ought six said:


> "I have been to some other sights and I really liked the 5 day repost rule that we had on GON.  Problem is, too many people failed to read or abide by the rules.  You can't check it now because the forum are closed, but the "views" of the rules were a tiny fraction of the number of posters in S&S, proving that most of the posters never bothered reading the rules.
> 
> You want to look at new post and it's full of a bunch of crap that you saw 8 hours ago.  See above.
> 
> If there was a way to flag any post that the average member might think was outside the rules, the mods and admins. would not have to look far to catch an offender.  Look at the little road sign red and white icon in the upper right hand of this post.  That can be used to report any post.
> 
> Ban any offender for one month the first offence.
> This should give them plenty of time to read the rules. *or register a new name*.
> 
> As for the second offence, ban for a year or maybe forever.
> If they have a second offence they probably can't be fixed, so might as well get rid of them.
> 
> Man I miss the S&S.



Not if you IP ban them


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## kmckinnie

Bear I'm glad U got your old avatar back!! Looks like U mean what u say now! Ilike him!!


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## georgia357

kmckinnie said:


> Bear I'm glad U got your old avatar back!! Looks like U mean what u say now! Ilike him!!




10-4, that's the reason I don't sass him no more.


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## CMLanier

*My 2 cents..*

For the S&S section, place a maximum number of posts at 3 per month.  That will allow the casual/individual buyer-seller to handle personal s&s...but will limit dealers to too low a count for them to stay interested for long.


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## bearpugh

aw shucks fellers.


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## elfiii

We want to thank all of you who have expressed your understanding, patience and valuable suggestions about the Swap & Sell forums. I have received well over 350 PM's about the matter since the forums were closed last Friday and have responded to almost all of them. We too were disappointed we had to take such drastic action, but when I said they had become unmanageable that is the truth.

We have been banning 3-4 members a day in Swap & Sell for sometime now. Our firearms forum looks like Swiss cheese from all the threads we have had to delete because of rules violations of one sort or another.

The dealers, both store front and Ebay style have run us ragged trying to pin them down. Its' not fair to the advertisers of this site who pay the freight so we all have a free place to have fun. Its' not fair to the members who think they are buying a gun from another individual only to find out they have to have a background check run and pay sales tax because the seller was a dealer and that after driving 50+ miles to make the deal. Its' not fair to us those same dealers lie to us when they are confronted and force us to use other means to smoke them out that take a great deal of our volunteer time.

In addition, many people were placing their ad here and then linking back to it from every message board and "For Sale" site on the internet. That practice absorbs massive amounts of expensive bandwidth and degrades the experience here for everybody else. We have had to shut down many of the search functions this software offers in order to preserve bandwidth. You members are the losers on that score as well. That's why we have had a long standing rule against the practice. There weren't just a few link backs. In just one week of looking for them, we found a hundred plus and that was just at 3 other sites.

Finally, for whatever reasons, many members here do not pay attention to or follow the rules regarding Swap & Sell. The combination of dealers, link backs and intransigent members created a toxic brew we simply couldn't tolerate anymore. 

One of the reasons this message board is so popular is because you members never see what we Admins and Mods do "behind the curtain". We don't air our dirty laundry in public and whatever moderation action we take is between us and the offending member and nobody else. We don't "Talk the magic".

We understand ya'll want Swap & Sell back. So do we. We are working on solutions to our problems. Those involve both rules changes as well as software changes. We do not have a solution in place yet and it may be sometime before we do. We simply cannot allow the abuses to continue unabated and us be unable to stop them to the detriment of everybody.

Again, we appreciate your kind thoughts, support, patience, understanding and suggestions. Everyone including the owner of this message board is focused on coming up with a system that works to eliminate our worst problems so we can bring back Swap & Sell and at the same time not work a hardship on the contributing members and us.

This is ya'll's message board. When (and if) Swap & Sell comes back, in whatever form, whether or not it stays is up to you the members. Ya'll will have to police yourselves and follow the rules so we are free to pursue the really bad people who take advantage of all of us.

For those of you who are considering sending us a PM about this matter, especially me, please be advised more than likely your thoughts and suggestions have already been expressed by the overwhelming majority of the members who have weighed in on the issue. Accordingly, you may or may not get a response. We will add your thoughts as a "+1 more" to the feedback we have already received.

In the meantime, please continue to enjoy the other forums on this board and look forward to hopefully, the return of Swap & Sell.


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## shaneadams90

Lee (elfii)
thank you for chiming in and providing a clearer picture of what was going on. I appreciate everything all the admins and mods do. 

Shane


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## Hawkeye7

It's just time to save some money while all this is going on. When and if it passes we can all go crazy and be like a kid in a toy store.


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## kmckinnie

I got on here to talk about deer hunting! I took part in the turkey challange! I'm looking at some of the other events in here as well! Ididn't know what was going on inthe s& s. I looked in every now and then ! I thought it was just good ol boys doing trading! I'm gun poor! I don't sell my guns! I buy 1 every now and then! I just thought it was to far to drive to buy a gun!!!I had no idea how this was going on! I'm surprized the button was not pushed sooner! I hope it returns to the good ol boy trading as it was intended! It will take some time to get the saftys in place with new rules! Mean while I'll be saving some funds to do some christmas shopping!! Good luckGON


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## Brassman

Elfiii leads.  The rest of us follow & support him & his decisions.


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## Dead Eye Eddy

Thanks Lee for giving us all an ADMIN perspective on the subject.

Now, if we double your pay, will it help get the S&S back open faster?


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## elfiii

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> Now, if we double your pay, will it help get the S&S back open faster?



I'm not sure. 2 * 0 still equals 0. Check my math for accuracy though. I was wrong once before. It could happen again.


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## VolFan1nGA

bearpugh said:


> I was never asked, advised or otherwise notified that I had to participate in other parts of the forum or be somebody's friend. I'm interested in all kinds of firearms as well as technical info on them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> there's the issue. if you read the rules you agreed to when you joined, it states that s&s is here for members that contribute in other parts of the forum.



Yeah, and if you would have read my WHOLE post you would have seen that I followed that up with "I do camp and went to sections concerning that once in a while." Obviously once in a while ain't enough. Sounds to me like you want a private forum.


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## kmckinnie

This is going to be good!!


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## Nicodemus

Let`s keep this civil, folks.


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## VolFan1nGA

elfiii said:


> I'm not sure. 2 * 0 still equals 0. Check my math for accuracy though. I was wrong once before. It could happen again.



Just for the record, I would gladly pay $20 a year or so to be able to window shop again. Of course, my wife would probably pay you twice that to NOT allow it!


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## shawn mills

Thanks Elfiii for the updated post on the progress of the S&S. I hope we can reach a solution that benefits all the members here. This is still the best forum on the web!


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## GA DAWG

VolFan1nGA said:


> Just for the record, I would gladly pay $20 a year or so to be able to window shop again. Of course, my wife would probably pay you twice that to NOT allow it!



Thats a good Idea..Maybe you should have to be a GON subscriber to use the forums period..That would cut down on the riff raff A LOT..Then the mods would be able top keep up with it..I'm on a hound site thats like that..A lot less crap on it than the free hound sites!


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## UGAGRAD04

OK so apparently the primary reason S&S was shut down was due to dealers.  Fact is you're never going to get rid of them, they'll just open a new account after a ban.  So instead of fighting them why not embrace them?  For instance limit the amount of for sale ads one person can place in a month, if they place over that amount ban them immediatley.  If a dealer/person wants to place more that say seven ads a month make them pay for it.  Setup a pay structure for dealers of x amount of $$/month to post more than the allowed amount, and have their user text identify them as a dealer.  The equipment exchange at AR15 seems to work pretty well.  Here are their rules

Equipment Exchange Rules

1. No more than TWO ads on page 1, and no more than FOUR ads within the first two pages.

2. No bold commands allowed in subject lines unless you're a paying Dealer/Industry Partner.

3. All ads should be placed in ONE appropriate forum.

4. All items MUST be priced!

5. You MUST have valid contact information to sell on AR15.com, and provide it to EE Staff on request.

6. You MUST have both your IM and e-mail turned on to sell here.

7. No auctions (or links to auction sites), unless specifically authorized by AR15.com. Accepting higher than stated prices for an item is considered 'taking bids' and is not allowed. If receiving a higher than advertised price is important to you, list your item on an auction site. Moreover, "Or Best Offer" is understood on the EE to mean best offer up to the listing price, not best offer above the listing price.

8. No links to other commercial sites except by AR15.com Dealers and Industry Partners.

9. WTB/WTT ads MUST be placed in the appropriate WTB/WTT forums ONLY. Posting them in the WTS forums may result in them being deleted instead of being moved. The ONLY exception is the NFA Firearms & Parts forum.

10. If you post more than EIGHT ads a month, think about becoming a team member and help support this site. This rule does not pertain to Dealers/Industry Partners.

11. Absolutely no stomping on other peoples' posts! Do not remark in any way that would negatively impact the sale of someone’s merchandise. This can result in your account being locked.

12. No posting of anything illegal.

13. Once your item is sold or traded, do NOT delete the original title, ad text, or asking price. Leaving the ad in place after a sale is protection for both the buyer and seller, and also acts as a price reference for others. Disregarding this rule may result in a suspension of your account. Edit the title and text of the ad to mark it "SOLD" or "TRADED". Do NOT post a new reply!



Rules #14-17 are specific to “BTT”, or bumping ads to the top of page 1:

14. Keep in mind Rule #1 above.

15. The seller CANNOT reply to their own ad within 72 hours of anyone's post (including their own) for any reason. The 72-hour countdown for the seller restarts with each new reply to the ad by ANYONE.

16. All changes/updates should be done with the edit feature to the original ad, not by adding another response.

17. Sellers –– If 72 hours have not passed since the last post by anyone, all questions should be addressed by IM, e-mail, or edit ONLY!

––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––––

18. Buyers –– STOP the trivial 'mail sent' nonsense. Simply send the seller an e-mail and/or IM. Also, STOP bumping ads with "Hey, free bump for a nice rifle.", "Free bump for a nice guy", "Hey, great rifle. I wish I had the money", "Payment sent", etc. All small talk should be restricted to IM or e-mail. Do not post in an ad unless you are interested in the item(s) for sale.

19. Don’t use a secondary "shill" account to ask a phony question or post any other messages, thus BTTing your own ad. This will result in BOTH accounts being locked!

20. Sellers –– Don’t rewrite an ad again in order to get it back on page 1.

21. Sellers –– Do not post items for sale that you do not have in your possession. Also, do not list items for sale unless you are 100% positive that you wish to sell them –– no "testing the waters" to gauge buyer interest or taking pre-orders. No sales for third parties. If your "friend" wishes to sell here, he must take the time to open a separate account

If you break any of these rules, your ad may be removed or locked without notice.


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## kmckinnie

04 I would hate to see the rules at your deer camp!


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## UGAGRAD04

kmckinnie said:


> 04 I would hate to see the rules at your deer camp!



Not my rules but another sites rules, they really are not anymore strict that the S&S rules were


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## K80

GA DAWG said:


> Thats a good Idea..Maybe you should have to be a GON subscriber to use the forums period..That would cut down on the riff raff A LOT..Then the mods would be able top keep up with it..I'm on a hound site thats like that..A lot less crap on it than the free hound sites!



Why do you wanna make me subscribe?  What'd I do?


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## Dead Eye Eddy

GA DAWG said:


> Thats a good Idea..Maybe you should have to be a GON subscriber to use the forums period..That would cut down on the riff raff A LOT..Then the mods would be able top keep up with it..I'm on a hound site thats like that..A lot less crap on it than the free hound sites!



I actually really like that idea.  Of course, a subscriber's spouse and minor children could use the S&S for free (no guns for sale by minors still).  If a seller that was banned wanted to slip back in with another username, he/she would have to pay for another subscription.

Perhaps a better idea is $25/year for an individual membership or $50/year for a family membership in the S&S and each membership includes one free subscription to GON.  You know that the editors would love the extra money.

Of course, all site members could view the ads in the S&S, but only paying members could list items for sale.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> I actually really like that idea. Of course, a subscriber's spouse and minor children could use the S&S for free (no guns for sale by minors still). If a seller that was banned wanted to slip back in with another username, he/she would have to pay for another subscription.
> 
> Perhaps a better idea is $25/year for an individual membership or $50/year for a family membership in the S&S and each membership includes one free subscription to GON. You know that the editors would love the extra money.
> 
> Of course, all site members could view the ads in the S&S, but only paying members could list items for sale.


 
A one year subscription is $19.95, so you are saying that only $5 would stay with the site to help manage the processing of subscription paperwork and membership management?

Sounds like it needs to be a little higher if you are going to throw that perk in.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> I actually really like that idea.  Of course, a subscriber's spouse and minor children could use the S&S for free (no guns for sale by minors still).  If a seller that was banned wanted to slip back in with another username, he/she would have to pay for another subscription.
> 
> Perhaps a better idea is $25/year for an individual membership or $50/year for a family membership in the S&S and each membership includes one free subscription to GON.  You know that the editors would love the extra money.
> 
> Of course, all site members could view the ads in the S&S, but only paying members could list items for sale.



Seems like a sure fire way to end up with nothing but dealers.

And BTW who do I send a copy of my marriage certificate and birth certificate for all my children too.  If I look around, I may have two or three marriage certificates.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

SavannahHunter said:


> these guys talk as if they own this forum! Big deal.........LIFE has too many rules.... i say we need less chiefs (moderators) and more indians (the real people that keep this board going.


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## Twenty five ought six

Changing gears a little bit, at any given time there are 4-15 members looking at the notice that S&S has been closed.

It's been a week, what are they looking at?


----------



## contender*

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> I actually really like that idea.  Of course, a subscriber's spouse and minor children could use the S&S for free (no guns for sale by minors still).  If a seller that was banned wanted to slip back in with another username, he/she would have to pay for another subscription.
> 
> Perhaps a better idea is $25/year for an individual membership or $50/year for a family membership in the S&S and each membership includes one free subscription to GON.  You know that the editors would love the extra money.
> 
> Of course, all site members could view the ads in the S&S, but only paying members could list items for sale.




Not that I would be against contributing some money to this fine forum but what good would it do as far as eliminating folks that can't read rules or dealers?? Heck 20-30-even 40 bux a year would be cheap for being able to list your inventory on an S&S that gets the hits this one did. As far as folks that can't follow rules, you can't fix stupid.


----------



## 243Savage

For those of you who seem to have an issue with how this forum as a whole is operated with the rules in effect for participation......

If you want a forum where "the inmates run the asylum" there's plenty on the www.  This isn't one of them.

It's structured and operated as the founder and current owner intends and will remain that way until the admin/moderator staff are directed otherwise.


----------



## HandgunHTR

SavannahHunter said:


> these guys talk as if they own this forum! Big deal.........LIFE has too many rules.... i say we need less chiefs (moderators) and more indians (the real people that keep this board going.



I am not exactly sure who "these guys" are that you are referring to, but, yes, there is an owner and he is completely on board with what WE (the moderators) do on this site.

And you are correct, the people who contribute to this forum are what keep it what it is.  It is our job to make sure that others (those that don't know or don't care to follow the rules) don't dilute that content.

UGAGRAD04, I think the point that you are not getting is that it didn't matter what rules are in place, there were too many people not following them.  All of the ones you posted are not bad, but those who don't want to follow them, don't.  When you are talking about 500 posts per day and if even 10% of them don't comply with the rules, it is a minimum of 100 minutes (or 1 hour 40 minutes) of the moderators time to remove those threads and send a PM/warning or infraction.  And that is if we have a "canned message" that we can copy and paste.

I would hazard to guess that the rules from this other site that you posted are not enforced very strictly.  Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.


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## germag

Twenty five ought six said:


> Changing gears a little bit, at any given time there are 4-15 members looking at the notice that S&S has been closed.
> 
> It's been a week, what are they looking at?



It's like when you know there's nothing in the refrigerator, but you keep going and looking anyway.....just in case something appeared in there since last time you looked (5 minutes ago).


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## Unicoidawg

germag said:


> It's like when you know there's nothing in the refrigerator, but you keep going and looking anyway.....just in case something appeared in there since last time you looked (5 minutes ago).



 Don't you just hate that.........


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## Dead Eye Eddy

Twenty five ought six said:


> Seems like a sure fire way to end up with nothing but dealers.
> 
> And BTW who do I send a copy of my marriage certificate and birth certificate for all my children too.  If I look around, I may have two or three marriage certificates.



All other rules would still apply.  An address for a subscription would give the MODs/ADMINs a way to track S&S users and more easily stop banned members from slipping back in with another username.

I would imagine that they wouldn't ask for birth certificates and marriage licenses.  I was referring to the same basic rules as the Truck Buck contest.  In the TBC, a subscriber's spouse and/or minor child can enter a deer on his subscription.

I could envision an "Application to sell items in the swap and sell forum" with lines for "member screenname, spouse's screenname, child #1's screenname, child #2's screenname, etc."


----------



## tsknmcn

Twenty five ought six said:


> Changing gears a little bit, at any given time there are 4-15 members looking at the notice that S&S has been closed.
> 
> It's been a week, what are they looking at?


 
If every member looks at it just once, it still needs 38,000+ views for all GON forum members to see it.  Just because it's been a week doesn't mean everyone has seen it.  I'm sure the fact that this thread is the *most popular thread* in terms of replies for the entire history of the Firearms, Reloading, and Scopes section of the forum will eventually lead to everyone knowing what's going on.


----------



## Dead Eye Eddy

Miguel Cervantes said:


> A one year subscription is $19.95, so you are saying that only $5 would stay with the site to help manage the processing of subscription paperwork and membership management?
> 
> Sounds like it needs to be a little higher if you are going to throw that perk in.



Fine with me.  I wasn't thinking about the money paying for the website as much as the money helping the magazine get stronger.  The advertisers would still be paying for the website and for the publication of the magazine.  If everyone who sold on the S&S also had a subscription, GON could probably be the largest-published magazine in the nation.


----------



## Hawkeye7

germag said:


> It's like when you know there's nothing in the refrigerator, but you keep going and looking anyway.....just in case something appeared in there since last time you looked (5 minutes ago).





Ah, the dream is still alive.


----------



## HandgunHTR

The problem (as I see it) with a lot of these suggestions, including charging for use, is that it will still require US (the Admins and Mods) to ride shotgun (including additional duties from some suggestions) in order for it not to get out of control.  This doesn't mean that we don't want to "do our jobs", as some might take this.  It means that I don't want to have to spend all my time on the board doing this.

And for those of you who say "Add more Mods", it should be painfully apparent to most of you based on some of the responses to this very thread, that not all are up the "challenge".

Here is another insight from a Mods perspective on it.  Since the S&S closed, I have actually had time to participate in forums that I used to frequent, like the Campfire and Muzzleloading.  Prior to it closing, I would check the Handgun Hunting forum, this forum and then I would head to the S&S to help out and I would spend the next hour doing it.  By the time I got done, I would just close up and head out, because I was in no mood to participate anymore.


----------



## Balrog

I don't mean to sound paranoid, but I dont think buyers and sellers of guns are going to feel real comfortable giving out a lot of private information such as physical addresses to anyone in order to post and advertisement on the internet.

I, for one, would not.


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## bearpugh

don't know the answer. but my feeling is, if we were'nt willing to give the dealers our forum, then i really don't want to "sell" it to them either. i'd just as soon keep it closed. i can find gun dealers anywhere.


----------



## kmckinnie

I'm glad yall have had a break!! I'm in management in contruction, it gets old being the one always doing and telling over and over andover you can't do that. Or you have to do this! Worker come on shift then leave and you are still there! they take a break you are still with the ones still there! We are here relaxing and can't follow rules that help you relax! When one does break one an does not know it,they catch the devil for all the times ones where tring to get away with it! Me at my job I can't be nice, everyone sees it as a weakness! Thanks for all yall do!! And I'm not talking about $ & $ I'm talking about all of this other wonderful forums that I enjoy and get to forget about my day to day dutys as a jobsite superintendent! Have a bless day


----------



## EON

Not sure a high post count would solve the problem, you'd have guys bumping threads left and right with no contribuation.  Personnaly I never ran into any dealers but saw allot of post that sure seemed to be and that's the shame of it.  As I recall the S&S was set up for the local guys guys here  in GA for the most part and it should have remained that way.  To buy or sell something to a guy in NY or MT was not very pratical. 

I'm guilty myself of not reading and staying as current on the rules as I should have but I respect the efforts of the mods as I was one once myself on another site and it's allot of work to say the least. 

Hopefully a workable solution can be found that would solve the issue as I used the forum allot.  My hats off to management and staff to make the call as I;m sure it wasen't an easy one.


----------



## bearpugh

if we go that route it would require quality posts outside s&s. no ttt, btt, +1, would count. a combination of high post count and a require time of mebership such as a year would deter the one that joins for s&s. and if a banned person slips in he has to start over. would allow only experienced members to use s&s. no excuse for not knowing the rules. gives new members a year to learn them.


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## kmckinnie

Wow!!! Hurry up and get this thing rolling, My year is about up!!lol Nocomplaints here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## shaneadams90

Are the mods/admins looking for the "magic bullet" that will eliminate all problems or a stop gap fix to get the S&S back up and running?

I would think that a short term fix would be to add a few more moderators.  While I know the requirements for mods are high, surely with the number of people that have contributed on this thread alone and the entire membership of the GON community there must be a few that we could add to the mix to get things back up and running.  After reading what the mods/admins are saying it seems you have been over run and adding staff, even just a select few, would help spread the work load out.  You guys just sound completely burned out and with good reason.  At this point no one doubts the effort you guys have been putting in and I think EVERYONE HEARS and UNDERSTANDS your frustration given your comments here.  WE are the CHOIR for the most part.  It is unlikely that the dealers, the real trouble makers, have participated much in this thread of over 8 pages (save for just a few suspect comments).  

I would say that we all get the point now, and would like to think that the dealers know that there will be ZERO tolerance and the rest of us would pay more attention to the rules from here on out...

"Daddy can we come out of time out now?"

Thanks for all you do and I appreciate the Mods and Admins willingness to comment in this thread.

shane


----------



## Twenty five ought six

bearpugh said:


> if we go that route it would require quality posts outside s&s. no ttt, btt, +1, would count. a combination of high post count and a require time of mebership such as a year would deter the one that joins for s&s. and if a banned person slips in he has to start over. would allow only experienced members to use s&s. no excuse for not knowing the rules. gives new members a year to learn them.



I've made the point before that a disproportionately high number of rules violations were from members with 3 months or less membership.  A year might be too long, but letting people join and post in S&S the same day was just a guaranteed way to not have people read and follow the rules.


----------



## bearpugh

right now all things are being considered. hopefully they'll come up with the right combo.


----------



## bigmc

I've been a member for about six months. I joined primarily for the s&s but enjoy a number of of the other sections. I would hate to have a one year limit or a certain number of posts. In any event I would not leave the site since it's great. I'm constantly sharing pics with the grandkids or info with the wife that i pick up here.


----------



## Rainmaker

Bearpugh, 

I'd like to offer my suggestion for possibly cleaning up the swap and sell. 

Regardless - ya'll already know you can't please everyone, so basically you just have to establish a criteria and implement it. If a few members don't like it then they can go somewhere else. It's that simple. 

Here are a few ideas (and I don't know if they have been stated before - I haven't read through this entire thread):

In order to post any ad in any section of the swap and sell you must: 

1. Be a Georgia resident (nonresidents are welcome to read the ads and solicit to buy - but not to sell)

2. Be a member here for at least one year before posting privileges are allowed

3. Have a post count outside of the s & s of 100 - any btt, ttt, or similar posts will not contribute to the required 100 posts. 

4. If any member violates the s & s forum rules they get one warning and the second violation should result in them being banned. 

We're all adults and can read - we should be held accountable for our choices - which primarily isn't the current popular American way. 

This is what I would do if I were running the s & s, and if you need me to moderate it I will. 

Have a good day!


----------



## Twenty five ought six

germag said:


> It's like when you know there's nothing in the refrigerator, but you keep going and looking anyway.....just in case something appeared in there since last time you looked (5 minutes ago).



Or like my cat that will stare at a door for hours (it seems) because she believes she can "will" it open.


----------



## bearpugh

Twenty five ought six said:


> Or like my cat that will stare at a door for hours (it seems) because she believes she can "will" it open.


----------



## germag

Hmmm.....I do that sometimes. Never works though. Sometimes I CAN open doors at the grocery store just by walking up to them, though.


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## bearpugh

thats spooky


----------



## Apex Predator

It's funny, but I've been a member here for several years and only discovered the S&S about 6 months ago.  I enjoyed the sub-forum though.  Hopefully the issues will be worked out.


----------



## shockmastermike

*s&s*

ive been here a while and have meet lots of great people here buying and trading. i hope you can get this back up and running again. always a few ruin it for everyone. thanks to the mods. for all there hard work on the post.


----------



## Paul Cataldo

I would like to post my opinion on the Swap and Sell forums.

  BRING THEM BACK! 

DO WHATEVER it takes to bring them back!  They are TOO large a part of this forum to take away!
  They are just as important as the Deer hunting forums!

Please, let me say that I TOTALLY understand the situation behind the scenes here, and I realize the mods are doing all they can to keep certain idiots from ruining the Swap and Sell forums.
  HOWEVER, I'm a member of umpteen billion forums, and I find it impossible to believe that GON is myseriously the only forum on the net that cannot handle running a Swap and Sell forum.

  SO, IF there is no other way, then the following SHOULD solve the problem.

-serious infractions get you kicked off the forum.  (this is for those who are dealers posing as private sellers/etc)

-minor infractions get you banned from forum for 30 days, 
  2nd offense and you're banned for 6mos.
  3rd strike and YOU ARE OUT

-employ MORE mods to handle each forum.  More mods the better.  

-I'm sure many of us would be willing to pay a one time initiation/donation fee to help keep the forums up and running.

  Don't know if I've got all the answers, but I DO KNOW that if umpteen billion other similar forums can run a Swap and Sell, then there is no reason GON cannot continue to have a Swap and Sell forum.
  It's just a matter of fact.

ABSOLUTELY NO DISRESPECT meant to anyone who runs this forum.  Just my honest thoughts, and I wanted to cast my vote, for what it's worth.
  Thanks for hearing me out guys.  I'm sorry you mods have had to deal with such Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- all this time.


  Uhhh..  I didn't use profanity.  Not sure what's up with that????

You guys get the point though.  Sorry you all had to deal with so much drama on the for sale forums.


----------



## UGAGRAD04

HandgunHTR said:


> I am not exactly sure who "these guys" are that you are referring to, but, yes, there is an owner and he is completely on board with what WE (the moderators) do on this site.
> 
> And you are correct, the people who contribute to this forum are what keep it what it is.  It is our job to make sure that others (those that don't know or don't care to follow the rules) don't dilute that content.
> 
> UGAGRAD04, I think the point that you are not getting is that it didn't matter what rules are in place, there were too many people not following them.  All of the ones you posted are not bad, but those who don't want to follow them, don't.  When you are talking about 500 posts per day and if even 10% of them don't comply with the rules, it is a minimum of 100 minutes (or 1 hour 40 minutes) of the moderators time to remove those threads and send a PM/warning or infraction.  And that is if we have a "canned message" that we can copy and paste.
> 
> *I would hazard to guess that the rules from this other site that you posted are not enforced very strictly.  Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.*



Wrong they are enforced VERY strictly, so much so that there are little to no infractions.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

HandgunHTR said:


> I am not exactly sure who "these guys" are that you are referring to, but, yes, there is an owner and he is completely on board with what WE (the moderators) do on this site.
> 
> And you are correct, the people who contribute to this forum are what keep it what it is.  It is our job to make sure that others (those that don't know or don't care to follow the rules) don't dilute that content.
> 
> UGAGRAD04, I think the point that you are not getting is that it didn't matter what rules are in place, there were too many people not following them.  All of the ones you posted are not bad, but those who don't want to follow them, don't.  When you are talking about 500 posts per day and if even 10% of them don't comply with the rules, it is a minimum of 100 minutes (or 1 hour 40 minutes) of the moderators time to remove those threads and send a PM/warning or infraction.  And that is if we have a "canned message" that we can copy and paste.
> 
> I would hazard to guess that the rules from this other site that you posted are not enforced very strictly.  Please feel free to correct me if I am wrong.



I sure don't want to get into a "mine is bigger that yours" discussion, but I'm having a hard time imagining how if would take 1 hour 40 minutes to review 50 posts.

As far as a "canned message" I'm a big believer in one size fits all-- the message "your post has been deleted because it violates forum rules" should be sufficient.  I certainly don't think the moderators have an obligation to spoon feed some one chapter and verse about what rule it violated.  If you put some mystery in it, maybe they will actually read the rules.


----------



## HandgunHTR

Twenty five ought six said:


> I sure don't want to get into a "mine is bigger that yours" discussion, but I'm having a hard time imagining how if would take 1 hour 40 minutes to review 50 posts.
> 
> As far as a "canned message" I'm a big believer in one size fits all-- the message "your post has been deleted because it violates forum rules" should be sufficient.  I certainly don't think the moderators have an obligation to spoon feed some one chapter and verse about what rule it violated.  If you put some mystery in it, maybe they will actually read the rules.



My math is as follows:

Read the post = 1 minute
Formulate and submit PM (may or may not include a link to the rules) = 1-2 minutes.

So that is 2-3 minutes per violation.  Times 50 violations that equals 100-150 minutes.  Now I am not saying that one moderator will have to handle all 50 violations by themselves, but in the S&S it was disproportionate to the number of posts in other forums.

I actually DO have cut and paste language for certain rule violations and I use it, which helps cut down on the time.


The last thing I will add to this discussion is that many people have pointed out that the WWW is full of other forums that don't have the problems that we had and are much less moderated than the ones that were here.  

My advice to you is to feel free to use them.  If you are unsure of where these classifieds are located, feel free to PM me and I will be happy to let you know where they are.

Remember the name of this website is Woody's Taxidermy Campfire Talk, not Woody's Taxidermy Campfire Swap and Sell.


----------



## Nicodemus

I`ll add something else to this discussion, without callin` names. Keep the smart remarks about the Moderators out of this. Consider this your warnin`.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Twenty five ought six said:


> If you put some mystery in it, maybe they will actually read the rules.


 
History has proven otherwise...


----------



## bearpugh

if it reopens it will most likely be quite some time from now.


----------



## cullyhog

I've been a member since 2007 and don't have an extremely high post count. I comment when I think I can help or when I believe my opinion counts. I don't post just to up my post count. I do however read most forums daily for the wealth of knowledge there and of course all the "running stories". Can't count how many times this site has helped me out on a gun, auto, or home problem or gave me a good recipe. I have bought and sold too, always local. I welcome the time it comes back with whatever rules are there.


----------



## Redneck1919

*Swap and Sell*

While I have only been a member since Nov. 2009, have enjoyed reading different forums here and gleaned a lot of good information from them. Have met a number of very nice guys through swap and sell, never had a bad experience. I don't post much, but read a lot. Swap and Sell was very much like reading a toy catalog for me. Perhaps a small fee per post to sell an item would weed out some of these guys? Appreciate the moderators and the job they do. Had one answer a dumb question for me.
Thanks,
Jim


----------



## It's Me

Why not allow all members to delete any post that doesn't follow the rules. It would be self regulating.


----------



## Nicodemus

It's Me said:


> Why not allow all members to delete any post that doesn't follow the rules. It would be self regulating.



That could turn into a very real catastrophe, and would lead to more disruption than we could handle.


----------



## It's Me

Nicodemus said:


> That could turn into a very real catastrophe, and would lead to more disruption than we could handle.



How?


----------



## bearpugh

well guy justed posted his gun 50 bucks cheaper than mine. delete..that guy left bad feedback on me. delete.  doubt everyone would be honest about that.


----------



## It's Me

bearpugh said:


> well guy justed posted his gun 50 bucks cheaper than mine. delete..that guy left bad feedback on me. delete.  doubt everyone would be honest about that.



It seems to work on Craigslist, which is on a much bigger scale. You can flag anything for deletion if you see that it violates their rules. If violators get their postings zapped quickly and over and over again, you'd think they'd soon enough just give up and follow the rules or stop trying to post.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

It's Me said:


> It seems to work on Craigslist, which is on a much bigger scale. You can flag anything for deletion if you see that it violates their rules. If violators get their postings zapped quickly and over and over again, you'd think they'd soon enough just give up and follow the rules or stop trying to post.


 
There's a system on here just like that, it's called a PM.. Mods and Admins respond very well to them.


----------



## Nicodemus

It's Me said:


> How?





Because of who people are, and they tend to become combative about things like that. If everybody in S and S start to moderate each other, it won`t be long till there are fights and arguments everywhere. There`s enough of that now, with the trader feedback system. 

Folks, this board will continue to be a success, whether the S and S is here or not. Ya`ll should consider that particular part of the forum a bonus.


----------



## It's Me

Nicodemus said:


> Because of who people are, and they tend to become combative about things like that. If everybody in S and S start to moderate each other, it won`t be long till there are fights and arguments everywhere. There`s enough of that now, with the trader feedback system.
> 
> Folks, this board will continue to be a success, whether the S and S is here or not. Ya`ll should consider that particular part of the forum a bonus.



On Craigslist the person that flagged someone else's post for violating the rules remains anonymous.  So there aren't and can't be any arguments and fights. 

S&S has been a unique board and a great resource/opportunity for a lot of people. I can't tell you how many times I've seen posts and just shook my head over the apparent disregard for the simplest of rules. I'd be happy to zap them, as I'm sure a lot of legitimate users would be. Let the moderators sort out the complaints of those who have had their posts zapped over and over again for violations instead of having to monitor each post to catch violations. We can share the task of managing those who don't get it. Just offering some suggestions and food for thought here.


----------



## Nicodemus

It's Me said:


> On Craigslist the person that flagged someone else's post for violating the rules remains anonymous.  So there aren't and can't be any arguments and fights.
> 
> S&S has been a unique board and a great resource/opportunity for a lot of people. I can't tell you how many times I've seen posts and just shook my head over the apparent disregard for the simplest of rules. I'd be happy to zap them, as I'm sure a lot of legitimate users would be. Let the moderator’s sort out the complaints of the repeat violators instead of each individual complaint/violation. Just offering some suggestions and food for thought here.




I understand, and the Staff is readin` the posts and takin` all the suggestions in consideration. Although I started this thread with another intention, it has given us much to think about, thanks to all the thoughts that have been spoken here. 

We appreciate that.


----------



## bearpugh

also, we already have a report button on posts. just click and it sends to all mods. many violators are actually caught by members.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

It's Me said:


> Why not allow all members to delete any post that doesn't follow the rules. It would be self regulating.





Nicodemus said:


> That could turn into a very real catastrophe, and would lead to more disruption than we could handle.





It's Me said:


> How?





It's Me said:


> It seems to work on Craigslist, which is on a much bigger scale. You can flag anything for deletion if you see that it violates their rules. If violators get their postings zapped quickly and over and over again, you'd think they'd soon enough just give up and follow the rules or stop trying to post.



Not saying "yeah" or "nay" but the way CL works is that it takes several flags to get an ad pulled.

And the privilege is abused regularly by little cliques that decide certain items don't fit their world view, or by people messing with their competitors.


----------



## dawg2

It's Me said:


> It seems to work on Craigslist, which is on a much bigger scale. You can flag anything for deletion if you see that it violates their rules. If violators get their postings zapped quickly and over and over again, you'd think they'd soon enough just give up and follow the rules or stop trying to post.



You can report a post now.  There is a red triangle icon with a ! in it at the top right corner of everyone's post.


----------



## kmckinnie

dawg2 said:


> You can report a post now.  There is a red triangle icon with a ! in it at the top right corner of everyone's post.



How long has that been there! never noticed ! My guess it goes to a mod?


----------



## bearpugh

goes to all mods for that section. been there since i can remember.


----------



## It's Me

kmckinnie said:


> How long has that been there! never noticed ! My guess it goes to a mod?



It's funny, but I've never noticed it either - and I've been around for a while on this board.


----------



## It's Me

Twenty five ought six said:


> Not saying "yeah" or "nay" but the way CL works is that it takes several flags to get an ad pulled.
> 
> And the privilege is abused regularly by little cliques that decide certain items don't fit their world view, or by people messing with their competitors.



Perhaps there is a slight modification needed vs how CL handles violations. Maybe a selected, but fairly sizable group of "proven" users are given delete privileges. That way you don't get the little clique effect.

Whatever the mods decide - thanks for everything you've done and continue to do. It's quite remarkable, especially considering that it's a charitable effort.


----------



## VolFan1nGA

Hey Mods, have y'all considered just allowing swaps? (I know you probably have)

Also, what about swappin' and sellin' things besides firearms?

Just thinkin' outloud. Not tryin' to stir the pot. I can live with whatever decision comes down.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

It's Me said:


> Perhaps there is a slight modification needed vs how CL handles violations. Maybe a selected, but fairly sizable group of "proven" users are given delete privileges. That way you don't get the little clique effect.
> 
> Whatever the mods decide - thanks for everything you've done and continue to do. It's quite remarkable, especially considering that it's a charitable effort.



Yes, there are "moderators" on CL, just like here.


----------



## georgia357

It's Me said:


> That way you don't get the little clique effect.



Unfortunately, there will always be the "clique effect".


----------



## fuelman1

If you want to see how that self moderation thing works just look at the Atlanta pets section on craigslist. There's a bunch of people with nothing better to do than flag and comment because they disagree with someones post. I wouldn't want a s&s if it looked anything like that. I'm sure with time the admins will come up with a workable plan. I can live with it or without it. This is still a great forum either way.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes

Perhaps keeping the sale of items in forums relative to their genre would help in self governance. Not in the form of moderation, but in jury by their peers. ie; firearms in the firearm threads, fishing / boating items in the fishing thread, etc etc etc.. Then still have a S&S for the miscellaneous items such as lawn equip, RV's (unless they made it to a camping forum) ATV's and such.

Seems to work pretty well in the Trad Archery forum and Hobbie forum. (but then again honor and reputation are held at a bit higher standard in those forums)

For a dealer or scaliwag intent on abusing the rules I am not certain there is a clear cut solution of easy means. The only deterant would be a zero tolerance / no second chances / no warning ban policy. Although, short of IT improvements to catch said predators, there would be no way of keeping them from coming back under different IP's.

It wouldn't hurt if the approval period for new members was stretched out to say, "you will be notified when your account is activated. This process can take up to two weeks." If they can't wait that long, oh well. I know that review and approval of new accounts is an arduous task undertaken by the volunteers on here.

I don't envy the Mod's and Admin's here. There is no bomb proof solution to this problem, only better mouse traps, and finding them and making them work is only as good as the varmits they are after.


----------



## Hawkeye7

*No pass, no play*

Well how about having to pass a test on the rules before you can post on S&S or any other forum. Can't pass the test, can't post. 
Maybe pick up a few more mods to lighten the load for a few months while the violators get frustrated and move on to other sites.
I enjoy most of the forums as well as the S&S. If the S&S never came back, I'll still be around reading and learning. If it comes back one day it'll just be a bonus.


----------



## Luke_M

I have been around here for a while now.  Joined strictly because of the S&S, after beign introduced to it from a friend.  After finding it, I found this forum and I dare say that I have 100 times the post here that I have on the S&S and I have engaged in a fair amount of trading over the time that I have been a member.  

Since I've been coming here, I've seen many changes take place.  In the beginning, you could bump your post, and you could comment on individual post.  Alas, things change and not long ago, I conveyed to Bearpaugh that keeping up with the rules around here was like keeping up with the ever changing gun laws or IRS polices.   In fact it had gotten so that I seldom visited the very thing thing that brought me here.  Funny how things work out, huh?

As some have stated here, a CL's system will not work.  I've went around with some of the "police wannabes" that flag people on CL and they have it figured out.  They will email a link to a particular ad around to their clique and in a few minutes, there are enough flags to have it stricken from the site.  I would no like that.

I don't think the time limits or post limits are fair to those that honestly come here to contribute.  But, I don't understand why it is that it is so hard to control or rectify.  There are other sites that function well with a fraction of the moderators and allow seemingly unsupervised posting.  I understand that is a very busy site and I understand the work that goes into maintaining a massage board after having hosted several and served as a moderator on several, so I appreciate the work that they do.  It is a voluntary position that one enters into, and I don't see the sense in hurting the board, or punishing the contributors because it has become a little bit of work.  

If the S&S is something that the managers do not want to dirty their hands with, then a simple Classified Section, similar to the one that they had, that limits post to one per person per day should do it nicely, but I don't remember having these problems when the S&S was open to comments.  It seemed that people were called out for violations, but there were many complaints, I'm betting mostly from those that were in the wrong.  It's rough to be called out, in public.

It had changed a lot from the time that I joined, in the beginning it was good people looking to make a fair trade.  There were a few, trying to be unlicensed dealers, but they shortly disappeared.  At the end, it was a lot of overpriced guns, with some people out to get what they could.  Do I miss it, yeah a little but only for the entertainment that it was.  A good chuckle could be found there, that is for sure.  

Maybe the Mods will figure it out, maybe they won't, but in the meantime I'll be happy that I can come hang out around here to chat and will be visiting one of the other swapping sites.

Luke


----------



## Dead Eye Eddy

It's Me said:


> It seems to work on Craigslist, which is on a much bigger scale. You can flag anything for deletion if you see that it violates their rules. If violators get their postings zapped quickly and over and over again, you'd think they'd soon enough just give up and follow the rules or stop trying to post.



Wouldn't work.  If it was 3 flags equals deletion, like craigslist, you'd have people with multiple log-ins or access to multiple log-ins (families, friends, coworkers, etc.) triple-flagging legit threads of people they don't like, left them negative feedback, etc.  Certain people who have made lots of enemies could never keep a thread posted.


----------



## tv_racin_fan

Some people don't seem to understand. A simple IP ban is simple to get around. Some of us can change our IP ourselves within a range at anytime. Some of us can change it simply by resetting our modems. For those that really really want to get around it and have had all of the possible IP's banned that those methods allow them to access there is always a proxy server to run thru.

I dunno what the answer is. I can live without the S&S and like many here my wife is willing to pay them to shut it down permanent. AND I haven't bought all that many firearms... But I don't want to live without it. I haven't been here all that long but the short time I have been I have seen it get progressively worse. Maybe in the beginning it wasn't policed as well as it should have and by the time it was it was already too late. More likely some people came and broke the rules and made some money and they told some other people who did the same and it just got progressively worse.

I let my grandchildren play on my PC and I wouldn't worry at all if this was one of the sites they enjoyed. I don't watch them constantly but I check on them from time to time to see what they are up to. When they find something I wont allow them to see it can be blocked until they get old enough to learn how to get around them. In any event I appreciate this site for keeping it clean for the younger crowd.


----------



## It's Me

Dead Eye Eddy said:


> Wouldn't work.  If it was 3 flags equals deletion, like craigslist, you'd have people with multiple log-ins or access to multiple log-ins (families, friends, coworkers, etc.) triple-flagging legit threads of people they don't like, left them negative feedback, etc.  Certain people who have made lots of enemies could never keep a thread posted.



And the problem is?


----------



## tv_racin_fan

It's Me said:


> And the problem is?


 
The problem is YOU might be friendly with one of those people and never get your ad on the S&S. You might even get banned falsely and not be on the forum at all. Then what??


----------



## It's Me

tv_racin_fan said:


> The problem is YOU might be friendly with one of those people and never get your ad on the S&S. You might even get banned falsely and not be on the forum at all. Then what??




Based on what?


----------



## HandgunHTR

We will _never_ use a system like CL.  Period.  Having non-objective people controlling the content of the forum isn't going to happen.

Everyone is able to report posts as has been pointed out.  That is not going to change.  If a post is reported, it will be reviewed for compliance with the rules.  If it is compliant it will stay.  If it is not, it goes.


----------



## It's Me

HandgunHTR said:


> We will _never_ use a system like CL.  Period.  Having non-objective people controlling the content of the forum isn't going to happen.
> 
> Everyone is able to report posts as has been pointed out.  That is not going to change.  If a post is reported, it will be reviewed for compliance with the rules.  If it is compliant it will stay.  If it is not, it goes.



Whatever you guys decide to do, we'll support you and follow the rules. Thanks again!


----------



## VolFan1nGA

Hey, one last suggestion for the Mods to consider:

in the S&S section only, do not allow a post or reply to "bump" the thread to the top. That is if it is possible.


----------



## threeleggedpigmy

VolFan1nGA said:


> Hey, one last suggestion for the Mods to consider:
> 
> in the S&S section only, do not allow a post or reply to "bump" the thread to the top. That is if it is possible.


That was already in effect.


----------



## Ga Sportsman

VolFan1nGA said:


> Hey, one last suggestion for the Mods to consider:
> 
> in the S&S section only, do not allow a post or reply to "bump" the thread to the top. That is if it is possible.




Been that way since July of last year.


----------



## VolFan1nGA

Sorry. I didn't go there much after they removed the ability to post a reply.

thanks.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

Ga Sportsman said:


> Been that way since July of last year.



Course people paid as much attention to that rule change as they did any other.


----------



## truck56

Thanks to the moderators for doing what they did.I always enjoyed the s&s and even made a few deals on here but enjoy the whole site.Maybe there be another S&S in the future.


----------



## 11P&YBOWHUNTER

VolFan1nGA said:


> Sorry. I didn't go there much after they removed the ability to post a reply.
> 
> thanks.



Yes, thats one thing i wish they would still allow you to do but so many people would TTT or UTTT or have their buddies TTT it for them so they didn't get into trouble.  It actually makes good sense to let people post on a thread, not to bash it but to get some questions answered that others may be asking too.  

I am all for keeping it closed though indefinitely, just so at least some of the dealers will go out of business between now and then...Dropping like flies!!!!


----------



## VolFan1nGA

I wouldn't wish anyone to lose their business. Legitimate businesses that is.


----------



## Jake Allen

VolFan1nGA said:


> I wouldn't wish anyone to lose their business. Legitimate businesses that is.



Neither would I.
However, if a business was dependent upon moving inventory thru our Swap & Sell, 
(and breaking the rules), to make the grade, I would not
consider them a very legitimate business.


----------



## 11P&YBOWHUNTER

Jake Allen said:


> Neither would I.
> However, if a business was dependent upon moving inventory thru our Swap & Sell,
> (and breaking the rules), to make the grade, I would not
> consider them a very legitimate business.



you are correct....


----------



## VolFan1nGA

Jake Allen said:


> Neither would I.
> However, if a business was dependent upon moving inventory thru our Swap & Sell,
> (and breaking the rules), to make the grade, I would not
> consider them a very legitimate business.



Exactly the point I was trying to make.


----------



## Huntnhart

I miss the s&s way more than I thought that I would. I enjoy the entire forum, but s&s kind of became a hobby, and I met several great people while trading. It is fun to trade on guns, play with them and then move on to others. I believe that there are many members who have the same hobby. I know that there were dealers using S&S. I don't think that it just started, but did increase with the Obama scare. I don't post alot but read most of the board daily. I have learned a bunch from the "experts" and the truly experienced outdoorsmen. Why not limit the number of post in s&s to one per week? Would it have to be monitored manually? 

I think that you guys do a great job and regardless of the fate of S&S, I will continue to visit the board daily.


----------



## Ga Sportsman

If the S&S does come back to life can you mod's make it mandatory to include "."'s in the description it is extremely hard to read a 4 line run on sentence w/ absolutely no punctuation see if your ad doesn't have the necessary punctuation then it will get deleted on the spot for the first offense  On the second offense you will also receive a 110 volt shock as soon as you click the "Submit Thread" button and for the third offense you will be incarcerated do y'all see how hard it is to read this sentence how bout it mod's can we make that happen


----------



## Spurhunter1

Ga Sportsman said:


> If the S&S does come back to life can you mod's make it mandatory to include "."'s in the description it is extremely hard to read a 4 line run on sentence w/ absolutely no punctuation see if your ad doesn't have the necessary punctuation then it will get deleted on the spot for the first offense  On the second offense you will also receive a 110 volt shock as soon as you click the "Submit Thread" button and for the third offense you will be incarcerated do y'all see how hard it is to read this sentence how bout it mod's can we make that happen




DITTO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bearpugh

if we get them to where they can read rules then we'll worry about writing.


----------



## contender*

Ga Sportsman said:


> If the S&S does come back to life can you mod's make it mandatory to include "."'s in the description it is extremely hard to read a 4 line run on sentence w/ absolutely no punctuation see if your ad doesn't have the necessary punctuation then it will get deleted on the spot for the first offense  On the second offense you will also receive a 110 volt shock as soon as you click the "Submit Thread" button and for the third offense you will be incarcerated do y'all see how hard it is to read this sentence how bout it mod's can we make that happen




i sekind thet moshin
this shoold be a rool akross the bored in all the forerums not jest the swap an sell as well as capatall lettars proper grammer an spelling i'm volinteering for the punkchewation and spelling mod rite hear an know


----------



## shaneadams90

What ever gets the S&S back up and running I am up for.

My "she-money" stash has not looked this good in some time! Maybe we should keep it closed for a bit longer....say 1st of July for a re-open?

"she-money"= Money she don't know about.


----------



## savethehooch42

I haven't been grounded this long since I was a kid.


----------



## jreXD9

I cnat afdorf ot uyb tanhiygn nayyaw


----------



## Tom Laubach

Heck, I read S&S for entertainment. Just to see what was out there.

Also bought a few things.


----------



## Garcia Mitchler

Ga Sportsman said:


> If the S&S does come back to life can you mod's make it mandatory to include "."'s in the description it is extremely hard to read a 4 line run on sentence w/ absolutely no punctuation see if your ad doesn't have the necessary punctuation then it will get deleted on the spot for the first offense  On the second offense you will also receive a 110 volt shock as soon as you click the "Submit Thread" button and for the third offense you will be incarcerated do y'all see how hard it is to read this sentence how bout it mod's can we make that happen



I think you missed a couple of periods... or at least a comma...


----------



## Nicodemus

Ga Sportsman said:


> If the S&S does come back to life can you mod's make it mandatory to include "."'s in the description it is extremely hard to read a 4 line run on sentence w/ absolutely no punctuation see if your ad doesn't have the necessary punctuation then it will get deleted on the spot for the first offense  On the second offense you will also receive a 110 volt shock as soon as you click the "Submit Thread" button and for the third offense you will be incarcerated do y'all see how hard it is to read this sentence how bout it mod's can we make that happen





Because of the punctuation, I didn`t even read this...


----------



## Lucky Buck Hunting Club

I met a couple of great guys on the S&S and got a great gun and gps from it too. I never had a bad experience on there, and miss it greatly. I hope yall put it back up soon, as I need a good pair of costas by next month, haha.


----------



## tlong286

I had 100% good experiences and met some great people. 

It was a firearm flash-card learning experience as well. I loved seeing unknown types of guns and the variety the members had. Quite entertaining. I hope it comes back to life in some form.

I have a locker full of stuff people would die for. OK maybe at least buy for pennies on the dollar.


----------



## Bamafan4life

I dont know if it has been suggested but maybe taking the swap and sell down at certain hours of the day or days of the week for maintnace?


----------



## jackdaniels

I enjoyed the S&S section very much.I dealt with some great guy's on this site also.I bought some gun's and scope's and am very happy with all of them.I did not have any problems until I posted a holster for sell.I posted it in the wrong category.I did not intentionally make this infraction and I don't think I should be baned from the Forum for life if I make the same mistake a second or third time.I am human and make mistakes.All I can do is read the rules and try to do better in the future.                                                                                         Maybe the rules could be posted for a revue when posting an item for sell on S&S when you click on adding an item for sale or trade??That way you are less likely to make an error and have less of an excuse when you do.The rules need to be spelled out in language everyone can understand and the penalty's for breaking each one if there is a different penalty for each one,or the penalty for all if the penalty is the same for all.Thanks for listening to my 2 cent's.JD


----------



## Balrog

Hey I have heard that when S&S reopens, they are going to give an all expense paid elk hunt in Wyoming to the first person to list a gun for sale!


----------



## kmckinnie

Someone who lives in Wyoming will mostlikely win!


----------



## vol man

it has been like 3 weeks since they said it was coming back

it must be some super secret code the 'web gurus' are writing for the new section 

HURRY UP ALREADY!!


----------



## Ga Sportsman

It's coming back in Greek first......That will help weed out the riff-raff


----------



## Nicodemus

Patience....


----------



## Tom L.

*Sad day!*

Fellows,

Been a while since I've posted here. I've found that I have a couple of rifles to sell...so I returned to the one place where it felt like we always had square deals and I felt like it was better to sell fairly to other GA shooters. Blast!! The scumbags have choked us off. Well, I don't blame the admins here for having to make that decision. I know they had to do the right thing to protect all of our interests. 

Hope S&S can come back soon. 

Tom L.
Marietta


----------



## Ga Sportsman

Nicodemus said:


> Patience....



Ok, I'm interesed......How much do you want for the "Patience" and do you have any pix?


----------



## Nicodemus

Ga Sportsman said:


> Ok, I'm interesed......How much do you want for the "Patience" and do you have any pix?





  I do believe you got it bad! No guarantees, but I`ll ask em how much longer.


----------



## mattellis2

Nicodemus said:


> I do believe you got it bad! No guarantees, but I`ll ask em how much longer.



any response?


----------



## Nicodemus

mattellis2 said:


> any response?





Not yet.


----------



## bearpugh

lol, the ol glockitis is gettin bad huh?


----------



## MadDawg51

I hope that the post limit is set low if there is one.  I read the forums to learn.  But, I don't post much.  I have bought - I believe 3 - guns off the forum.  In all cases, the folks I dealt with were great and the guns were fairly priced and as described.

I look forward to its return.  And, thanks to Elfii and all the others who work to keep this whole site from falling down around our heads.  These things don't run themselves.


----------



## Fat Daddy

Maybe we're all on the snipe hunt and the admins are just'n at us.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

Fat Daddy said:


> Maybe we're all on the snipe hunt and the admins are just'n at us.




Yeah, I can't believe all of you have taken so long to figure it out.  The mods were just tired of getting P.M.s and wanted all of you to sit on your hands in eager anticipation.


----------



## LAKOTA

I haven't read all 9 pages, but from what I have read, the problems were mostly pertaining to GUN sales? Why close the entire S&S forum?


----------



## StikR

Get on with it!


----------



## Nicodemus

When they get all the bugs worked out, it will be put up. All the pushin` and shovin` ain`t gonna work.


----------



## Fat Daddy

I just spent my stash so I'm good for another month or so.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

LAKOTA said:


> I haven't read all 9 pages, but from what I have read, the problems were mostly pertaining to GUN sales? Why close the entire S&S forum?



Same reason the whole class has to stay after the bell when just a few idiots act out.

It teaches collective responsibility.


----------



## Marlin_444

Ok... Thanks... 

See you in the woods... 

Ron


----------



## calibob1

*bugs*

bugs-does that mean what % to charge


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

I'll be glad to see it come back. I just hope it doesn't take to long. The upside is that there is a new forum in the state that does has a Swap and Sell kind of area. Looks alot like the one that used to be on here.


----------



## shockmastermike

ill be glad to see it back to. whats the name of the new one in the state


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

I would tell you but the word is that if you post the name of the other site you post gets pulled. So mums the word.


----------



## HandgunHTR

BLK08ROCKERC said:


> I would tell you but the word is that if you post the name of the other site you post gets pulled. So mums the word.




True, but your PM button should fix that problem.


----------



## bearpugh

i thought pm was the "pancake maker" button.


----------



## bearpugh

most sites won't allow links to competitors. their just asking to keep in pm's.


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

Yea just PM me. I will try to answer them. I think I've answered around 20 already


----------



## jjasonbbo1

HandgunHTR said:


> True, but your PM button should fix that problem.



That cant be entirely true because I know 3 people that were banned solely from PMs sent about "other sites"...???

Cant we all just get along???


----------



## HandgunHTR

jjasonbbo1 said:


> That cant be entirely true because I know 3 people that were banned solely from PMs sent about "other sites"...???
> 
> Cant we all just get along???



I can assure you that that wasn't the case.  If they were banned, it was because they were breaking the rules.

PMing a name or link to another site is not against the rules.

If those 3 people you speak of told you they were banned just because of PMing about other sites, they were not being truthful with you.


----------



## contender*

HandgunHTR said:


> they were not being truthful with you.



That's a nice way of saying it.


----------



## bearpugh

actually there is a no spamming rule.
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=3580631#post3580631
but answering a pm isn't spam. pmimg massive members without their asking is.


----------



## jjasonbbo1

HandgunHTR said:


> I can assure you that that wasn't the case.  If they were banned, it was because they were breaking the rules.
> 
> PMing a name or link to another site is not against the rules.
> 
> If those 3 people you speak of told you they were banned just because of PMing about other sites, they were not being truthful with you.




Nope. all they did was pm people about another site that has a swap sell and within an hr they were banned... and no.. they are not liars and I am not either.. thanks..


----------



## Twenty five ought six

jjasonbbo1 said:


> Nope. all they did was pm people about another site that has a swap sell and within an hr they were banned... and no.. they are not liars and I am not either.. thanks..



Not really wanting to get into the micturating competition, the moderators can't read PM's -- well, that's not exactly correct, most of them _could_ read them if they could access them.  The mods don't have access to PM's.  


So unless one of the parties to the PM made it not so "P" (private), there is no way to get banned for the content of a PM.  

I regularly share specialty websites that allow sales.  I do it through PM's more as a courtesy to the owner of this site than any rule, and I've had absolutely no consequences.

Also, not trying to let the cat out of the bag too much,  my PM's regularly have content that would be "moderated" in the forum, and I've never heard a word about it.  

So without addressing the "truthfulness" of anyone, it's impossible to get banned for merely transmitting a PM.


----------



## take em

bearpugh said:


> actually there is a no spamming rule.
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?p=3580631#post3580631
> but answering a pm isn't spam. pmimg massive members without their asking is.



Does that mean they were banned for sending PMs to as many people as they could about the other site? They were banned for spreading the word about another site? You can call it spamming but I would have a hard time believing that it had nothing to do with what the PMs were about. You say " without their asking" but when someone asks you delete their post. Don't try to hide behind a rule that was put in place to prevent companies from using the sight for free advertisement. That rule was not there to prevent members from communicating with each other. 

On another note, I still visit the sight for the sub-forums I am interested in. I find that I don't spend near as much time here when I visit nor do I visit nearly as often. Not just because the S&S is gone but also many of the members who used the S&S are gone. I hope the S&S returns soon before many lose interest and this great forum simply fades away. I can't imagine what is taking so long. I hope mentioning the return of the S&S is not just a stall tactic. Members are losing interest every day and many will never return.


----------



## jjasonbbo1

take em said:


> Does that mean they were banned for sending PMs to as many people as they could about the other site? They were banned for spreading the word about another site? You can call it spamming but I would have a hard time believing that it had nothing to do with what the PMs were about. You say " without their asking" but when someone asks you delete their post. Don't try to hide behind a rule that was put in place to prevent companies from using the sight for free advertisement. That rule was not there to prevent members from communicating with each other.
> 
> On another note, I still visit the sight for the sub-forums I am interested in. I find that I don't spend near as much time here when I visit nor do I visit nearly as often. Not just because the S&S is gone but also many of the members who used the S&S are gone. I hope the S&S returns soon before many lose interest and this great forum simply fades away. I can't imagine what is taking so long. I hope mentioning the return of the S&S is not just a stall tactic. Members are losing interest every day and many will never return.



You must be a preacher...
 cause that will Preach right there!!! 

I love this site because of the amount of information you can get from it.. It is a bummer that whoever abused the swap-sell and ruined it for people that needed it....  
But I totally agree with the mentioned above...


----------



## bearpugh

i was simply pointing out the rule. how its applied isn't up to me.


----------



## Arrow3

take em said:


> I hope the S&S returns soon before many lose interest and this great forum simply fades away. I can't imagine what is taking so long. I hope mentioning the return of the S&S is not just a stall tactic. Members are losing interest every day and many will never return.





I can assure you that this forum will not fade away because of the swap and sell ....

I highly doubt that we have lost any of our "good" members because of the swap and sell not being here....Remember, after all, this is a hunting/fishing website....The swap and sell is just a bonus.....

On a side note...Everything y'all have been told about the swap and sell is 100 % truthful as far as the management staff knows around here....  We're hoping it will be back soon ourselves....I personally have several things I would like to list on it...


----------



## boneboy96

And noone is having the Jones's more than ME!   I'm fairly certain that this will be a non-issue in the near future!


----------



## Dustin Pate

take em said:


> On another note, I still visit the sight for the sub-forums I am interested in.




Well that's good being that's what the forum was started for anyway.


----------



## gonehoghutin

i sure do miss it fellas  i met alot of nice people and got really good advise ya'll do what u gotta do  we got ya back   thanks


----------



## bearpugh

boneboy96 said:


> And noone is having the Jones's more than ME!   I'm fairly certain that this will be a non-issue in the near future!



i've had to take up knitting and puzzles.


----------



## 243Savage

take em said:


> Does that mean they were banned for sending PMs to as many people as they could about the other site? They were banned for spreading the word about another site? You can call it spamming but I would have a hard time believing that it had nothing to do with what the PMs were about. You say " without their asking" but when someone asks you delete their post. Don't try to hide behind a rule that was put in place to prevent companies from using the sight for free advertisement. That rule was not there to prevent members from communicating with each other.
> 
> On another note, I still visit the sight for the sub-forums I am interested in. I find that I don't spend near as much time here when I visit nor do I visit nearly as often. Not just because the S&S is gone but also many of the members who used the S&S are gone. I hope the S&S returns soon before many lose interest and this great forum simply fades away. I can't imagine what is taking so long. I hope mentioning the return of the S&S is not just a stall tactic. Members are losing interest every day and many will never return.



Aside from the excessive failure to follow the rules by many who utilized the forum for sale of personal goods, when the swap and sell venue that became saturated by dealers was yanked out from underneath them, their recourse was to mass PM every member they could.  How do we know this?  A daily flood of members sending PM's to us complaining about unsolicited PM's by folks peddaling their wares and/or advertising other websites.  That in our view constitutes spam.  Also, judging by the amount of new registrations we see daily, the risk of this forum "simply fading away" does not exist.  Those who do leave and have no intention of returning due to the absence of a swap and sell forum tells me a lot about why they were here in the first place.  This forum isn't a web based storefront which quite a few seemed to think it was.


----------



## take em

Dustin Pate said:


> Well that's good being that's what the forum was started for anyway.



Agreed. Just seems that the forum threads move much slower now. Especially in the firearms section. Deer hunting and trail cams roll right along but the firearms section has definitely suffered. I guess the firearms folks are the ones who like to sell and trade. I like to hunt and also shoot competitively. One of the reasons I like this sight is because I can get my "fix" for both. It is one of the only forums out there where you can find it all in one place and I see that slipping away. Have you ever tried talking hunting on AR15 or one of the other gun sights. Nothing, absolutely nothing. I know the S&S was a bonus and not why the forum was started but anyone who hasn't seen a difference in this sight since it was closed has not been paying attention. Hopefully the S&S will be brought back and everyone can follow the rules. For some members it may already be too late. Others can't come back because they were passing info on to other members that the sight didn't want passed on. That is their right but it is also a shame. Bans are perminant though.


----------



## take em

243Savage said:


> Aside from the excessive failure to follow the rules by many who utilized the forum for sale of personal goods, when the swap and sell venue that became saturated by dealers was yanked out from underneath them, their recourse was to mass PM every member they could.  How do we know this?  A daily flood of members sending PM's to us complaining about unsolicited PM's by folks peddaling their wares and/or advertising other websites.  That in our view constitutes spam.  Also, judging by the amount of new registrations we see daily, the risk of this forum "simply fading away" does not exist.  Those who do leave and have no intention of returning due to the absence of a swap and sell forum tells me a lot about why they were here in the first place.
> This forum isn't a web based storefront which quite a few seemed to think it was.



I agree about the dealers. What I am saying is that not everyone being accused of being a dealer really was. I have friends that got warnings and such and were accused of being dealers just because they had more than one of the same items for sale. I own 3 Ruger 10/22s. If I decided to sell the two I never shoot then I would be considered a dealer. I know one of the mods on here has over 400 i-trader ratings. A lot of members think he is a dealer. I know him and know he is not a dealer but there are many who say he is. Point being, things aren't always what they seem and many good members have left or been banned unjustly. The dealers that were here caused this and not the forum staff but there towards the end everyone was guilty until proven innocent.

ETA: Just because someone pm'ed members about another website that doesn't make them a dealer. They were treated as they were a dealer to justify their banning. Banned for getting the word out about the competition. Not for being a dealer. JMHO


----------



## contender*

Twenty five ought six said:


> Not really wanting to get into the micturating competition, the moderators can't read PM's -- well, that's not exactly correct, most of them _could_ read them if they could access them.  The mods don't have access to PM's.
> 
> 
> So unless one of the parties to the PM made it not so "P" (private), there is no way to get banned for the content of a PM.
> 
> I regularly share specialty websites that allow sales.  I do it through PM's more as a courtesy to the owner of this site than any rule, and I've had absolutely no consequences.
> 
> Also, not trying to let the cat out of the bag too much,  my PM's regularly have content that would be "moderated" in the forum, and I've never heard a word about it.
> 
> So without addressing the "truthfulness" of anyone, it's impossible to get banned for merely transmitting a PM.



 I've sent many PM's to those looking for certain things to point them towards a forum where they could find what they were looking for. Never even had ONE complaint and most of the time got a "thanks" or something close.
Me thinks someone is only listening to one side of the story and we all know there is always two sides, sometimes three.


----------



## redlevel

take em said:


> Does that mean they were banned for sending PMs to as many people as they could about the other site? They were banned for spreading the word about another site? You can call it spamming but I would have a hard time believing that it had nothing to do with what the PMs were about. You say " without their asking" but when someone asks you delete their post. Don't try to hide behind a rule that was put in place to prevent companies from using the sight for free advertisement. That rule was not there to prevent members from communicating with each other.
> 
> On another note, I still visit the sight for the sub-forums I am interested in. I find that I don't spend near as much time here when I visit nor do I visit nearly as often. Not just because the S&S is gone but also many of the members who used the S&S are gone. I hope the S&S returns soon before many lose interest and this great forum simply fades away. I can't imagine what is taking so long. I hope mentioning the return of the S&S is not just a stall tactic. Members are losing interest every day and many will never return.





take em said:


> Agreed. Just seems that the forum threads move much slower now. Especially in the firearms section. Deer hunting and trail cams roll right along but the firearms section has definitely suffered. I guess the firearms folks are the ones who like to sell and trade. I like to hunt and also shoot competitively. One of the reasons I like this sight is because I can get my "fix" for both. It is one of the only forums out there where you can find it all in one place and I see that slipping away. Have you ever tried talking hunting on AR15 or one of the other gun sights. Nothing, absolutely nothing. I know the S&S was a bonus and not why the forum was started but anyone who hasn't seen a difference in this sight since it was closed has not been paying attention. Hopefully the S&S will be brought back and everyone can follow the rules. For some members it may already be too late. Others can't come back because they were passing info on to other members that the sight didn't want passed on. That is their right but it is also a shame. Bans are perminant though.





take em said:


> I agree about the dealers. What I am saying is that not everyone being accused of being a dealer really was. I have friends that got warnings and such and were accused of being dealers just because they had more than one of the same items for sale. I own 3 Ruger 10/22s. If I decided to sell the two I never shoot then I would be considered a dealer. I know one of the mods on here has over 400 i-trader ratings. A lot of members think he is a dealer. I know him and know he is not a dealer but there are many who say he is. Point being, things aren't always what they seem and many good members have left or been banned unjustly. The dealers that were here caused this and not the forum staff but there towards the end everyone was guilty until proven innocent.
> 
> ETA: Just because someone pm'ed members about another website that doesn't make them a dealer. They were treated as they were a dealer to justify their banning. Banned for getting the word out about the competition. Not for being a dealer. JMHO



Everybody else is too polite to say it, but I ain't:  You need to hit the road, go, and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.   You don't like the way things are run here?   Start your own forum.  (It just occurred to me that might be what has already happened.  Hmmmm . . . . )

Anyhow, how dare you come on here lecturing the people who run this place, and questioning their motives for the way they do it?    I say again, "GIT FRUM HEAH!"


----------



## HandgunHTR

take em said:


> ETA: Just because someone pm'ed members about another website that doesn't make them a dealer. They were treated as they were a dealer to justify their banning. Banned for getting the word out about the competition. Not for being a dealer. JMHO



If you PM your friends list about a new site, I am pretty confident that nothing will come of it.

If you send the same PM to everyone that you saw using the S&S, they complain to the Mgmt. about it and when you are asked about it, you cop an attitude, that is considered spamming.  If you are a member in good standing, you may just be given a warning/infraction, but smart-talking to the Admins won't help your case.  If you are a newbie or have a few infractions under your belt, you will more than likely be banned.

Also, I will put one last word in about what are considered "dealers".  If you have 300 posts on the Forum and only 2 of them are not in the S&S, then you are a dealer.  If you have 400 I-Trader ratings, over 5000 posts and only 25% of them are in the S&S, then you are a contributing member of the Forum who does a lot of Swapping and Selling.  See the difference?

I honestly don't care if someone is, or isn't, a good guy "in real life".  If they can't follow the very simple rules that govern this Forum, they will have to face the consequenses.

So, I will say it again, if they are banned, it was not just because they PMed a few of their friends about other websites where ya'll can S&S.  If that is what they told you was the only reason, they I will say it again, they were not being truthful.

This is the last I am going to say about it here.  If you wish to discuss it further, my PM Inbox is wide open.


----------



## contender*

redlevel said:


> Everybody else is too polite to say it, but I ain't:  You need to hit the road, go, and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.   You don't like the way things are run here?   Start your own forum.  (It just occurred to me that might be what has already happened.  Hmmmm . . . . )
> 
> Anyhow, how dare you come on here lecturing the people who run this place, and questioning their motives for the way they do it?    I say again, "GIT FRUM HEAH!"



I'll admit you posted exactly what I was thinkin. Kudos Red!!


----------



## packrat

*???*



redlevel said:


> Everybody else is too polite to say it, but I ain't:  You need to hit the road, go, and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.   You don't like the way things are run here?   Start your own forum.  (It just occurred to me that might be what has already happened.  Hmmmm . . . . )
> 
> Anyhow, how dare you come on here lecturing the people who run this place, and questioning their motives for the way they do it?    I say again, "GIT FRUM HEAH!"



Dang Red, I wish you would quit holding back & just tell us how you feel.


----------



## bearpugh

packrat said:


> Dang Red, I wish you would quit holding back & just tell us how you feel.



just can't ever tell where you stand with that guy.


----------



## packrat

*Yep*



bearpugh said:


> just can't ever tell where you stand with that guy.



Ole beatin' around the bush, sugar-coater


----------



## DblTee

redlevel said:


> Anyhow, how dare you come on here lecturing the people who run this place, and questioning their motives for the way they do it?    I say again, "GIT FRUM HEAH!"




Man, you better stay away from the tea parties.  Those crowds are nothing but people that question the motives of the way things are being run.


----------



## ThaDuck

DblTee said:


> Man, you better stay away from the tea parties.  Those crowds are nothing but people that question the motives of the way things are being run.


----------



## take em

redlevel said:


> Everybody else is too polite to say it, but I ain't:  You need to hit the road, go, and don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.   You don't like the way things are run here?   Start your own forum.  (It just occurred to me that might be what has already happened.  Hmmmm . . . . )
> 
> Anyhow, how dare you come on here lecturing the people who run this place, and questioning their motives for the way they do it?    I say again, "GIT FRUM HEAH!"



First, I have stated that I like many of the areas of this forum. I contribute when I have some input. If someone has already said it I don't repeat it just to get my post count up. I have been a member for several years and have nothing but positive i-trader feedback. Yet, you want to look cool to everyone and accuse me of being a troll and starting a DISCUSSION (that's quite different than a "lecture" or "questioning motives" for the remedial) to benefit a website I supposedly started with my mad ninja, point and click, two finger typing skills. Perhaps with your "GIT FRUM HEAH" attitude you should try to become a mod. Then you can run off anyone you don't agree with. If you can't carry on a DISCUSSION (understand?) or have nothing to add to the DISCUSSION then perhaps you should heed your own suggestion and "GIT FRUM HEAH".


----------



## jjasonbbo1

take em said:


> First, I have stated that I like many of the areas of this forum. I contribute when I have some input. If someone has already said it I don't repeat it just to get my post count up. I have been a member for several years and have nothing but positive i-trader feedback. Yet, you want to look cool to everyone and accuse me of being a troll and starting a DISCUSSION (that's quite different than a "lecture" or "questioning motives" for the remedial) to benefit a website I supposedly started with my mad ninja, point and click, two finger typing skills. Perhaps with your "GIT FRUM HEAH" attitude you should try to become a mod. Then you can run off anyone you don't agree with. If you can't carry on a DISCUSSION (understand?) or have nothing to add to the DISCUSSION then perhaps you should heed your own suggestion and "GIT FRUM HEAH".



 This is so Awesome!!! 
Can I hire you for arguments I cant normally win??? Dude you rock!!! You have officially made my Christmas card list!!!


----------



## Sniper Bob

reading this was like watching The World Cup....what was the point!!!


----------



## Marlin_444

Doing my first deal on another site since the S&S shut down and I gotta say it just ain't the same...  

Patiently wait'n... 

See you in the woods...

Ron


----------



## vol man

tom ga hunter said:


> weagle, who I meet on 24 Hr, recommended that I try this site out as a good place to rotate my collection.  In the last 3 or so years I have sold my encores here and a bunch of stuff that I no longer wanted.  I have bought some things other people didn't want so we were all happy.
> 
> I think the moderators are trying to over control and the market will simply take care of itself. If you want to cut down on band width, cut the number of pictures from 5 to 1 and let the seller email pictures. I would also have an automatic deletion of all adds in S&S at 4 weeks.  As a old retired guy I look at 24 hr & Accurate reloading classifieds, they allow responses and don't seem to have all the moderation problems we have.



HERE HERE!!

I think he who governs least governs best.  If fools are getting ripped off so be it.  It should not be the role of a moderator to police every post.  If you admit that you can not control everything you will be happier in life.  Just ask and alcoholic.  If you try to make something too pure you end up with a retarded inbred who can't get out of his own way.  Just ask a poodle owner.

Are you guys concerned that you will incur some kind of liability for what goes on in an internet sales site?  Just ask Craig's List.

Relax all of the rule and let the thing work itself out.


----------



## kmckinnie

Hey yall whats been happening in this thead lately. I haven't read any of the post here lately! I heard the s&s is comeing back soon!YEA!!! YEA!!! YEA!!! Everybody give 3 yeas and thank them! Well talk to yall later  k


----------



## SgtPat

*dealers*



vol man said:


> HERE HERE!!
> 
> I think he who governs least governs best.  If fools are getting ripped off so be it.  It should not be the role of a moderator to police every post.  If you admit that you can not control everything you will be happier in life.  Just ask and alcoholic.  If you try to make something too pure you end up with a retarded inbred who can't get out of his own way.  Just ask a poodle owner.
> 
> Are you guys concerned that you will incur some kind of liability for what goes on in an internet sales site?  Just ask Craig's List.
> 
> Relax all of the rule and let the thing work itself out.




If you want to see what it is like without the moderators, just go to "the other site".  Its full of dealers posting numerous guns a day, and constantly bumping them or their buddies bumping them with a post of "he's a really good guy, don't pass up this deal".  There are plenty of dealer sites to shop at.  I prefer swapping and selling and buyings with private individuals (good ole boys).


----------



## kmckinnie

SgtPat said:


> If you want to see what it is like without the moderators, just go to "the other site".  Its full of dealers posting numerous guns a day, and constantly bumping them or their buddies bumping them with a post of "he's a really good guy, don't pass up this deal".  There are plenty of dealer sites to shop at.  I prefer swapping and selling and buyings with private individuals (good ole boys).



It only took one post for me to catch up on this thead!
GOOD OLE BOYS Weneed more of them!!!!!!!!! No dealers!


----------



## Bamafan4life

so anybody heard of a date its going to be back up?


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

SgtPat said:


> If you want to see what it is like without the moderators, just go to "the other site".  Its full of dealers posting numerous guns a day, and constantly bumping them or their buddies bumping them with a post of "he's a really good guy, don't pass up this deal".  There are plenty of dealer sites to shop at.  I prefer swapping and selling and buyings with private individuals (good ole boys).



Really, I hadn't noticed this. The "other site" allows dealers but is requiring them to be listed as dealers. They are also allowing dealers to put up "dealer stores" on the site that you can browse through. Could you please show me an example of a dealer listing over there. I may just be to dumb to tell the difference LOL.


----------



## no clever name

Maybe he's talking about the other, other site. 

On the other site you can set up your forum view to either see post in chronological order or by latest post.  I keep my view in chronological order so the newest post is always on top.  

I think the default view for the forum is also chronological so it doesn't matter how many times your buddies reply to a post it doesn't move up.



BLK08ROCKERC said:


> Really, I hadn't noticed this. The "other site" allows dealers but is requiring them to be listed as dealers. They are also allowing dealers to put up "dealer stores" on the site that you can browse through. Could you please show me an example of a dealer listing over there. I may just be to dumb to tell the difference LOL.


----------



## SgtPat

enjoy the other site.


----------



## shaneadams90

I am ready for the good ole GON swap and sell to take it's next breath. 

Some one grap the paddles and turn it up too 300 let's kick start this sucker back to life.


----------



## Bamafan4life

whats the ''other'' site


----------



## tlong286

500 posts should be the end of time out!


----------



## take em

Bamafan4life said:


> whats the ''other'' site



Can't tell you. This thread would be instantly deleted. Someone could send you a PM though.


----------



## AR-Trvlr

wow.  500 posts to this thread!


----------



## kmckinnie

I need a password, or a secret knock to get in! Thanks! I've had a background check! Never been in jail, for more than a day!


----------



## JWarren

Since the site membership is continuing to grow even without the S&S and members have not been banned for sharing other web sites that offer S&S for visitors, it might be helpful to members to start a forum here where members can post site addresses that offer S&S and other info that fellow members might enjoy browsing.


----------



## Sniper Bob

just an observation...if you arent in the "clique"....you arent welcome in certain circles on this forum.....that should


----------



## sniper13

*I wuz WARNED*


I was looking to BUY something in swap & sell.
I was warned that i should have posted in the wanted section.

I was "offline" for a while and had no idea what had been going on.

I bet WOODY is spinning in his grave and shaking his head.

Back then, if my senile old fingers hit a wong key, Jim or other Mods would just put it where it was supposed to go.
:

There were some SERIOUS bad mouthing, name calling(from 3 generations) and if they could have reached thru the screen; I'd bet there would have been medical bills  and possibly jail time involved.
During those years I can't remember over just a few folks gettng kicked off.

And I can't recall ever having a whole section to be takin away.

In the mods defense, like i said I had been offline for a while.  I don't know what happened to justify completley shutting down Swap and Sell

I'm sure it will be back up soon and & we will all behave in a civil manner.

I 
I apologize for  getting the forum shut down somehow and i will try not to sc...up again.

Can't hardley wait for the forum to open.


there's  stuff i need / and stuff  I have to sell before i can buy the things  i "need/want"

Yall have a good'un today.

Ron


----------



## builditbreakit

I went to the other,other site and they said Gon had a great s&s in an open form so I came BACK but dang it they got me again.
Just a group of ole boys siting round the camp fire here talking bout way things used to be.


----------



## jjasonbbo1

Bamafan4life said:


> whats the ''other'' site





bigbird1 said:


> Can someone "PM" me the name of the new site? Thanks.




So from what I understand if I PM these fellas a link to a site that is perfectly acceptable??? Cause from everything else I know I will get banned and the thread closed....


----------



## ofcford

SgtPat said:


> If you want to see what it is like without the moderators, just go to "the other site". Its full of dealers posting numerous guns a day, and constantly bumping them or their buddies bumpinghe's a really good guy, don't pass up this deal". There are plenty of dealer sites to shop at. I prefer swapping and selling and buyings with private individuals (good ole boys).


 
Come on over and see... See for your self, form your own opinions.


----------



## pitbull

yeah whats the other site? Someone please pm me. GON is taking this way to far!!!!!


----------



## Marlin_444

Still patiently waiting...

See you in the woods...

Ron


----------



## Dovebuster33

*?*

I am not a big poster and have probably bought, sold and traded maybe 10 items since joining in 2004 and had nothing but good experiences with a bunch of great people.
So my question is: What was the big problem with S & S ?
DB


----------



## BDD

Sold my first guns on the other site, offered a good deal and
 had 3 buyers lined up in less then an hour. Yes, there may be
 dealers on there but you don't have to buy from them.  With
The power of the internet, it only takes a minute or two, to find
actual gun values. Then you can determine if it's a deal or not.

 Of course you have to beat a certain Mod to the punch, if you
 want the really good deals, just like on the old GON  S & S.

 I say guns even thought it was only one deal. I sold a Mini 14
and Ithaca auto shot gun together for $ 500


----------



## Marlin_444

Still patiently waiting...   

See you in the woods...

Ron


----------



## K80Shooter

Ok, someone pm me the other site.

Got the info, Thanks guy's


----------



## 8pointduck

I don't believe there is another sight prove it.


----------



## Knockerboy

bigbird1 said:


> Can someone "PM" me the name of the new site? Thanks.



yes sir me too please


----------



## tom ga hunter

me 2


----------



## rider1009

Please pm the name other site. Thanks


----------



## jreXD9

pm here, too, plz and thank you.


----------



## Kalashnikov

Can I get a pm, of the so called.


----------



## LaRue

JWarren said:


> Since the site membership is continuing to grow even without the S&S and members have not been banned for sharing other web sites that offer S&S for visitors, it might be helpful to members to start a forum here where members can post site addresses that offer S&S and other info that fellow members might enjoy browsing.



I suggested this.

They said that links to other sites may have viruses on those other sites and didn't want them on GON.....


----------



## shaneadams90

PM other site please....don't mind reading about hunting that I don't do when I really enjoy window shopping guns.

PM me the "other" site please.  

thanks,
shane


----------



## leoparddog

Can't y'all guys use Google to find this mythical "other" site?


----------



## PierceCTD

Will someone please PM me the new site also?


----------



## jjasonbbo1

PM me if you want the address...


----------



## redlevel

8pointduck said:


> I don't believe there is another sight prove it.



www.webecrooks.com


----------



## Gentleman4561

pm please


----------



## FLGobstopper

Ok I feel out of the loop, where is it? Can I get a pm? Please, please, pretty please!


----------



## Twenty five ought six

FLGobstopper said:


> Ok I feel out of the loop, where is it? Can I get a pm? Please, please, pretty please!





leoparddog said:


> Can't y'all guys use Google to find this mythical "other" site?




Worked for me, and I didn't even really care.


----------



## elfiii

For those of you who are "Jonesing".

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=545808


----------



## Sniper Bob

elfiii said:


> For those of you who are "Jonesing".
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=545808



gonna have to call a "dead ball, personal foul" on elfiii....15 yard penalty and loss of down for "TAUNTING"   hahaha


----------



## shaneadams90

Good call Bob!

Killing me!!!!


----------



## specialk

elfiii said:


> For those of you who are "Jonesing".
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=545808



what about all the butt kissing i had to do to get my password?????


----------



## Fat Daddy

elfiii said:


> For those of you who are "Jonesing".
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=545808



This is me Jonesing.


----------



## gobbleinwoods

Can't stay away myself.


----------



## DAKILLER

hey i'm new and don't know what happened , can anyone enlighten me?


----------



## Balrog

> hey i'm new and don't know what happened , can anyone enlighten me?



Too many dealers started posting guns for sale.  Private individuals selling personally owned firearms didn't follow the rules, so the owners killed the Swap and Sell forum.  It supposed to be back in late July or August.


----------



## DAKILLER

i may be new here but i agree with shane open up the s&s and put on more mods


----------



## DAKILLER

oooooo and by the way i really like this forum


----------



## Twenty five ought six

DAKILLER said:


> i may be new here but i agree with shane open up the s&s and put on more mods



Well dang, I'm glad we got that settled now.


----------



## nhancedsvt

DAKILLER said:


> i may be new here but i agree with shane open up the s&s and put on more mods



if only you had been here a couple months ago, we might have avoided this whole mess!


----------



## Twenty five ought six

nhancedsvt said:


> if only you had been here a couple months ago, we might have avoided this whole mess!



Yeah, why didn't we think of that?


----------



## dgilles

pm please


----------



## Marlin_444

Patiently...

Waiting...

See you in the woods...

Ron


----------



## jjasonbbo1

Gentleman4561 said:


> pm please





FLGobstopper said:


> Ok I feel out of the loop, where is it? Can I get a pm? Please, please, pretty please!





dgilles said:


> pm please



PM me and I will give it to you.. I won't PM anybody first..


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

jjasonbbo1 said:


> PM me and I will give it to you.. I won't PM anybody first..



Yea PM me if you need the site.


----------



## no clever name

I just noticed that the homebrew or hobby items for sale section is still open.  

http://forum.gon.com/forumdisplay.php?f=97

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that even though collecting guns is a hobby of mine I'll be penalized if I post anything that goes bang over there.


----------



## Buck

no clever name said:


> I just noticed that the homebrew or hobby items for sale section is still open.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/forumdisplay.php?f=97
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that even though collecting guns is a hobby of mine I'll be penalized if I post anything that goes bang over there.



And you would be correct sir..   

Hang tight folks...the swap and sell is coming...


----------



## olchevy

no clever name said:


> I just noticed that the homebrew or hobby items for sale section is still open.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/forumdisplay.php?f=97
> 
> I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that even though collecting guns is a hobby of mine I'll be penalized if I post anything that goes bang over there.



I feel that would be a spot on assumption!


----------



## LaRue

Everyone can feel free to PM me for the site. 

I would respond to your individual posts but it gets confusing to keep track of who I talked to and I don't want to just keep sending to the same five people by mistake.


----------



## rkwrichard

What happened to my post?


----------



## kmckinnie

rkwrichard said:


> what happened to my post?



poof!


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

rkwrichard said:


> What happened to my post?



Wow! It wasn't a link? What was the problem then?


----------



## olchevy

rkwrichard said:


> What happened to my post?


 I thought it was a brilliant way to appease everyone! No link like they asked, cause remember their "reasoning" was so that we could not accidentally introduce viruses into their system, and the people get what they want. And no more can I get a pm post!........That was a little harsh...........


----------



## Marlin_444

Patiently waiting    

See you in the woods... 

Ron


----------



## shaneadams90

Actually took a little longer than I thought it would.


----------



## BLK08ROCKERC

olchevy said:


> I thought it was a brilliant way to appease everyone! No link like they asked, cause remember their "reasoning" was so that we could not accidentally introduce viruses into their system, and the people get what they want. And no more can I get a pm post!........That was a little harsh...........



I thought it was a pretty good Idea also.

I'm not sure what went wrong here?


----------



## chuckdog

Just Google, "online gun trading in Ga.", and see what pops up. It ain't rocket surgery!


----------



## Craig Knight

chuckdog said:


> Just Google, "online gun trading in Ga.", and see what pops up. It ain't rocket surgery!



Shouldnt that be brain surgery or rocket science?

Either way I just wish they'd hurry up and bring it back. I miss trading with alot of the fellas on here I had met.


----------



## chuckdog

Craig Knight said:


> Shouldnt that be brain surgery or rocket science?
> 
> Either way I just wish they'd hurry up and bring it back. I miss trading with alot of the fellas on here I had met.



I may have over estimated my audience? But I got a good laugh!


----------



## shaneadams90

I caught it and chuckled.


----------



## Craig Knight

I didnt say I didnt catch it and also get a chuckle.


----------



## TwinGlock40z

Wow! So I've been out the country for awhile and have not been able to get on here in some time. I come home and one of my favorite online things to do has vanished.  Not very happy. Not only did I like meeting some great people and getting some fair trades but I really enjoyed just browsing even was I completely broke and had nothing to trade. 

I just hope that somehow the mods can find a way of getting it all to work out. Oh and just because the swap and sell is gone it doesn't mean I am. I was here before I even knew it existed and I'll be here even if it never comes back.


----------



## tree cutter 08

32k views on the s@s. lots of people waiting!


----------



## shaneadams90

Waiting..........still........here............waiting.


----------



## HBC4570

Amen.


----------



## pitbull




----------



## Brassman

Three days & no comments?


----------



## Ballplayer

Brassman said:


> Three days & no comments?



Yep, I think everybody's given up on promises and gone home !  On your way out don't forget to turn the lights out.


----------



## kylelever

Looky!!!:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=545808


----------



## elfiii

Yep. Christmas in August. Can you believe it?


----------



## BeastieDawg

Its about like waiting for College Football season to start!  Painful! BUt worth it when it gets here!


----------



## jjasonbbo1

WAIT!!!! WAIT!!! Dont start it up yet!!! Just 28 more posts on this and we will be at 600!!!


----------



## Balrog

Hopefully the ATF won't shut it down again if the new tracking/reporting software works properly.  It feeds directly into the ATF mainframe in DC.


----------



## LAKOTA

Great. Maybe I can find myself a good used 4-dr truck now! (preferably a Ram w/Hemi)

 You boys get those pictures ready.


----------



## whiskerz

the end is near


----------



## HandgunHTR

Balrog said:


> Hopefully the ATF won't shut it down again if the new tracking/reporting software works properly.  It feeds directly into the ATF mainframe in DC.


----------



## gobbleinwoods

Any guess on how many pages of new instructions there will be?


----------



## Marlin_444

Patiently...

Waiting...

See you in the woods...

Ron


----------



## Twenty five ought six

gobbleinwoods said:


> Any guess on how many pages of new instructions there will be?



What difference does it make, 90% of the posters won't read them if they were condensed to one sentence.


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## redlevel

What, there were instructions?


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## Fat Daddy

Any bets on how many listings posted the first day S&S is back up?


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## shaneadams90

Bring the site down on opening day? 
Kill the server. Would be curious to see some traffic stats after it opens though.


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## Kbrown




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