# Pope Frances says Atheist go to heaven too.



## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

This link was posted on another GON forum yesterday.  I wanted to hear your thoughts on it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...p00000009&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

My first thought was "This is gonna tick a lot of Atheist off."


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## TripleXBullies (May 23, 2013)

I don't don't Catholic doctrine very well, but would this be another example of a change in a religion to better fit today's society? 

Although I obviously don't exactly agree... It doesn't tick me off.. I would just say, "Well thank you...." I think it helps promote a peaceful tolerance. Not unlike the mormom change mentioned in the other thread...


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## TheBishop (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My first thought was "This is gonna tick a lot of Atheist off."



My first thought is ........


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## Artfuldodger (May 23, 2013)

The Pope is saying more or less what Semperfidawg has been saying. That all goodness including morals come from God. Atheist know right from wrong and if they do good it receives redemption from Christ. It still doesn't save them.

We all got to Atheist, Hindu, and Muslim doctors and they all help us get well. God must be blessing their actions otherwise we would get sicker.


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

Almost posted this a few times...

I think its a good move, and relates a bit to my "how religions change" post...

Religions change to reflect modern society. If they don't, they die off.

Unfortunately, they tend to lag behind a bit.. but i'm glad when they catch up.

I foresee more and more of this. Already you can see how there are changes in churches around america to become more accepting of homosexuals, for instance.


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## drippin' rock (May 23, 2013)

[QUOTEWe all go to Atheist, Hindu, and Muslim doctors and they all help us get well. God must be blessing their actions otherwise we would get sicker.][/QUOTE]

There is another possibility.......


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## bullethead (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> My first thought was "This is gonna tick a lot of Atheist off."



 I'd say the believers will be more upset over it than any non believer.


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## drippin' rock (May 23, 2013)

Should a Protestant Christian care at all what the Pope says?


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Should a Protestant Christian care at all what the Pope says?



I would say everyone should, to an extent. The leader of the biggest religion in the world has a lot of power. I really wish he would get rid of Catholics problems with birth control.


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## drippin' rock (May 23, 2013)

Four said:


> I would say everyone should, to an extent. The leader of the biggest religion in the world has a lot of power. I really wish he would get rid of Catholics problems with birth control.



The whole celibacy thing seems to cause problems as well.


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> The whole celibacy thing seems to cause problems as well.



Yup, but this move, one that is more open and doesn't condemn non-catholics, will not only serve to make many catholics less bigoted, but also serves the public image, putting pressure on other forms of Christianity.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Should a Protestant Christian care at all what the Pope says?


 
Yes and here's why.  Paul clearly tells Timothy in the last days apostasy within the Church will increase.  Four states that he forsees more of this happening and I agree, but whereas Four finds it encouraging, I find it ominous.

II Timothy 4:2

“For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. 4 They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But as for you, be serious about everything, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes and here's why.  Paul clearly tells Timothy in the last days apostasy within the Church will increase.  Four states that he forsees more of this happening and I agree, but whereas Four finds it encouraging, I find it ominous.
> 
> II Timothy 4:2
> 
> “For the time will come when they will not tolerate sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, will multiply teachers for themselves because they have an itch to hear something new. 4 They will turn away from hearing the truth and will turn aside to myths. 5 But as for you, be serious about everything, endure hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”



That is so freaking interesting.... So is this almost like an end of days thing for you? If so, do you see that it's a continuous thing and that this is nothing new? If so, how do you reconcile it?


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

Holy crap!

2 Timothy 4:3



> _"But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. 2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. *Have nothing to do with such people*.
> 
> 6 They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, 7 always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth. 8 Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so also these teachers oppose the truth. They are men of depraved minds, who, as far as the faith is concerned, are rejected. 9 But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone"_



I haven't read the bible much in a while i forgot how misogynistic it is.


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## TripleXBullies (May 23, 2013)

It was nothing new for god views to change, be rejected and fade out completely... Prophesy the future based on the past...


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## dawg2 (May 23, 2013)

What I read said, "Good people."  Not sure where the rest was inferred.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

Four said:


> That is so freaking interesting.... So is this almost like an end of days thing for you?



As in a David Koresh end of days?  No.  A date setting end of days? No.  A general sign. Yes



Four said:


> If so, do you see that it's a continuous thing and that this is nothing new? If so, how do you reconcile it?



I would say that throughout history Christians have made a lot of mistakes in portraying people as the Antichrist from Nero to Obama.  They have also often been foolish enough to set dates for the end of the world.    I would go so far as to say it's occurred in almost every generation and in every single instance they come out not only looking foolish, but also leaving Christianity with another black eye.  Most of the time these were responses to some perceived threat to the Church either real or imagined.  

Currently the Church feels threatened with the very real possibility of becoming irrelevant, hence the responses such as the ones you refer to regarding homosexuality, birth control and Atheism, as well as others.  There is a liberal tsunami occurring throughout the whole of Christianity that is effectively washing away all the sacred tenet fences that separates Christianity from secularism.

What's different this time?  In the past Christianity fought back and held the line.  This is the first time in Church history the Church has sacrificed some of its most sacred tenets and by doing so it has not held the line, but erased it.

Back to your question.  Over the last 2000 years there has been an ebb and flow to the march of Christianity, yet I think the overall direction has paralleled the exact course the New Testament stated it would and will climax with the ending it predicts.  I have no idea when that will be.


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## TripleXBullies (May 23, 2013)

I think the inference is there... Maybe it wasn't intended though.


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> As in a David Koresh end of days?  No.  A date setting end of days? No.  A general sign. Yes



Do you think it will be in your lifetime? (not that i know how old you are..)



SemperFiDawg said:


> Currently the Church feels threatened with the very real possibility of becoming irrelevant, hence the responses such as the ones you refer to regarding homosexuality, birth control and Atheism, as well as others.  There is a liberal tsunami occurring throughout the whole of Christianity that is effectively washing away all the sacred tenet fences that separates Christianity from secularism.



Similar things have and are happening to other religions too. hindu, islam, etc. I dont think its unique to christianity. The reasons are the same, adapt or die.



SemperFiDawg said:


> What's different this time?  In the past Christianity fought back and held the line.  This is the first time in Church history the Church has sacrificed some of its most sacred tenets and by doing so it has not held the line, but erased it.



Do you think you might be bias at all with what is considered most sacred tenets? Naturally you dont think killing apostates as a sacred rennet, likely because that's something that died out before you were born (for the most part...) so do you think you see the acceptance of homosexuality (for instance) as more sacred than killing apostates just because you were raised learning about one and not the other? Sorry if thats a poor example for you personally, but im sure you get what i mean.

By church do you mean the catholic church? or just in general? Because Christianity has fought pretty hard in the past...but much of it is still fighting pretty hard. (westboro baptist anybody?)


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## Artfuldodger (May 23, 2013)

I can see where Churches have changed with society and didn't fight back on the sacred tenant of the woman's role in the Church and family.
Not all Churches change as quickly and may never change their stance on the sacred tenants.

Churches also changed on the stance of racism which was never a sacred tenant.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

Four said:


> Do you think it will be in your lifetime? (not that i know how old you are..)



I have no way of knowing.  I can only point to the fact that it is almost universally accepted among people that know a lot more about it than me agree that the Rebirth of Israel as a Nation in 1948 and prophesied by Isaiah, was the last prophesy that HAD to be fulfilled before what is spoken of in the book of Revelation begins.  That could be today or 1000 years from now.  No one knows  




Four said:


> Similar things have and are happening to other religions too. hindu, islam, etc. I dont think its unique to christianity. The reasons are the same, adapt or die.



Indeed.  I would suggests reading Foxe's Book of Martyrs.  History clearly points out Christians, as a rule, chose to die rather than renounce.





Four said:


> Do you think you might be bias at all with what is considered most sacred tenets? Naturally you dont think killing apostates as a sacred rennet, likely because that's something that died out before you were born (for the most part...)



Dang, Just how old do you think I am?  



Four said:


> so do you think you see the acceptance of homosexuality (for instance) as more sacred than killing apostates just because you were raised learning about one and not the other? Sorry if thats a poor example for you personally, but im sure you get what i mean.



Honestly I don't find that a honest question.  It's evident from your posts that you are intelligent and, I assume, well aware that Christians are not bound by the Old Testament laws regarding apostasy nor homosexuality, so I find your examples a bit jaded.  That being said I will do my best to answer your question.  I believe both apostasy and homosexuality are sins.  Persons practicing both may receive forgiveness, just as myself and everyone else received forgiveness.  But, they like everyone else, must acknowledge their actions as sin.  
There is an example where Jesus said to the prostitutes accusers "You who are without sin cast the first stone" Then Jesus forgave her.  It's a beautiful picture isnt it?  People today are quick to point out this event in the Bible as a symbolic reference that we are not to judge because Jesus forgives everything.   What they don't acknowledge is the rest of the story when Jesus says to the prostitute "go and sin no more." Which implies that not only did he recognize her actions as a sin, but that she did also.
    This is not what is being pushed today in our society or in our churches.  What Christians are being asked to do, and some are in fact doing, is to say homosexuality, apostasy, and according to the Pope as of yesterday, Atheism, are not sins.  This directly contradicts what I see as one of the most sacred tenets.  Love The Lord with all your heart, soul and mind.  May I suggests that if I, as a Christian, am calling what God calls a sin, good, then I am in fact rebelling against the one I am supposed to love?



Four said:


> By church do you mean the catholic church? or just in general? Because Christianity has fought pretty hard in the past...but much of it is still fighting pretty hard. (westboro baptist anybody?)



Church in a general sense.  I often us the word Church in reference to the Catholic Church also, but when I do, 
I try to make sure the context defines it as so.

I can pretty much assure you the members of Westboro will burn in the hottest fires of - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - if its any consolation to you.  I don't know if I have ever witnesses more hatred toward mankind from a single group of people.  I guess with all that seething hatred they overlooked Jesus's command to love our enemies.

Hop this answers your question.


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## TripleXBullies (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> ...
> There is an example where Jesus said to the prostitutes accusers "You who are without sin cast the first stone"
> 
> 
> ...





huh?


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## Four (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I have no way of knowing.  I can only point to the fact that it is almost universally accepted among people that know a lot more about it than me agree that the Rebirth of Israel as a Nation in 1948 and prophesied by Isaiah, was the last prophesy that HAD to be fulfilled before what is spoken of in the book of Revelation begins.  That could be today or 1000 years from now.  No one knows



Hmm, that seems like a good reason to think it would happen soon.

So that makes the Israel/ Palestine conflict more of a holy war than it already is? That sheds a lot more of an apocalyptic light on it.




SemperFiDawg said:


> Dang, Just how old do you think I am?



That wasnt meant that way... 



SemperFiDawg said:


> Honestly I don't find that a honest question.  It's evident from your posts that you are intelligent and, I assume, well aware that Christians are not bound by the Old Testament laws regarding apostasy nor homosexuality, so I find your examples a bit jaded.



I wasn't really meaning to bring up the old vs. new testament, I was more just trying to think of practices that were common a long time ago in Christianity that are not so much now. I was looking to point out that these beliefs that are now not as important used to be very important to people at the time. Perhaps people used to see the heliocentric model of the universe as heretical, were as now  its accepted as a no brainer. 

Also, no offence, but I know that many Christians feel they aren't bounded by old testament law, but i know not all feel that way. It's always a slippery issue when talking to someone that says there christian. If you were a Jehovah's witness you might think that wearing a cross is plain and simple idol worship... Hard for me to pin that stuff down for every person on the forum. 



SemperFiDawg said:


> That being said I will do my best to answer your question.  I believe both apostasy and homosexuality are sins.  Persons practicing both may receive forgiveness, just as myself and everyone else received forgiveness.



Thanks.  

I dont think the pope said they weren't sins.. so much as that wouldn't mean they didn't go to heaven if they were also good people in other respects. Also, even if you agree that apostates and homosexuals are sinners, you're (i hope...) not calling for them to be killed as might have been common in yesteryears.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

Nope. No killin round here unless it's self-defense......or trying to court my daughters.


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## ted_BSR (May 23, 2013)

Four said:


> Almost posted this a few times...
> 
> I think its a good move, and relates a bit to my "how religions change" post...
> 
> ...



I agree with these statements, but I believe they are dangerously wrong. Kind of like the boy scouts excepting openly gay recruits, or the federal government saying they just want to register your guns a little bit. It is a slippery slope.


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## Artfuldodger (May 23, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> I agree with these statements, but I believe they are dangerously wrong. Kind of like the boy scouts excepting openly gay recruits, or the federal government saying they just want to register your guns a little bit. It is a slippery slope.



Even if we feel that way now how will Christians feel about it 30 years from now? I don't feel the same way about divorce, fiddle music, contraception, women's roles, and wearing sandals to Church as my grandmother felt about it. She still wore long hair and a hat to Church. My Mom never swears or calls anyone a fool. 
I don't feel the same about segregation as my parents. My kids feel tattoos and piercings or normal. My ancestors a few hundred years ago thought slavery was OK.


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## ted_BSR (May 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even if we feel that way now how will Christians feel about it 30 years from now? I don't feel the same way about divorce, fiddle music, contraception, women's roles, and wearing sandals to Church as my grandmother felt about it. She still wore long hair and a hat to Church. My Mom never swears or calls anyone a fool.
> I don't feel the same about segregation as my parents. My kids feel tattoos and piercings or normal. My ancestors a few hundred years ago thought slavery was OK.



I don't have the answers to these questions Dodger. Only God does, but He does forgive all sin. I am guilty. I am forgiven. Anyone else may also be forgiven. It is a matter of accepting the gift.

I guess I would have to say, if it is white, then it is a no brainer, if it is grey, then it is black. Don't mess with grey and black.


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## Artfuldodger (May 23, 2013)

ted_BSR said:


> I don't have the answers to these questions Dodger. Only God does, but He does forgive all sin. I am guilty. I am forgiven. Anyone else may also be forgiven. It is a matter of accepting the gift.
> 
> I guess I would have to say, if it is white, then it is a no brainer, if it is grey, then it is black. Don't mess with grey and black.



I don't either, all this talk of churches & morality evolving and God never changing makes me wonder. I would like to see how a person from the early 1900's would react to our present Christian morals and the Church of today. I'm talking about the conservative Churches of today. 
I don't know if it means we are closer to the "end times" or not. If it does then it's just part of the prophesy and I welcome it.


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## ted_BSR (May 23, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't either, all this talk of churches & morality evolving and God never changing makes me wonder. I would like to see how a person from the early 1900's would react to our present Christian morals and the Church of today. I'm talking about the conservative Churches of today.
> I don't know if it means we are closer to the "end times" or not. If it does then it's just part of the prophesy and I welcome it.



Me too....

The church is the church, the absolute truth is the absolute truth. God will decide.


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## TripleXBullies (May 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't either, all this talk of churches & morality evolving and God never changing makes me wonder. I would like to see how a person from the early 1900's would react to our present Christian morals and the Church of today. I'm talking about the conservative Churches of today.
> I don't know if it means we are closer to the "end times" or not. If it does then it's just part of the prophesy and I welcome it.



If it's not, then it's just what it's always been... The religions and idea of god conforming to whatever the culture want it to..


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## Dominic (May 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This link was posted on another GON forum yesterday.  I wanted to hear your thoughts on it.
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...p00000009&utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false



Pope Francis did not say Atheist go to heaven.

He said that even Atheist have been redeemed, through the Blood of Christ.

_"The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone! ‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone! And this Blood makes us children of God of the first class! We are created children in the likeness of God and the Blood of Christ has redeemed us all! And we all have a duty to do good. And this commandment for everyone to do good, I think, is a beautiful path towards peace. If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others, if we meet there, doing good, and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much. We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”_

Redemption and Salvation are two different things.
Redemption is like the Golden Ticket that got Charlie into the factory, salvation gave him the ride on the great glass elevator.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 24, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Pope Francis did not say Atheist go to heaven.
> 
> He said that even Atheist have been redeemed, through the Blood of Christ.
> 
> ...



I disagree.  When he made the statement "But do good: we will meet one another there.” , it appears that he is defining "there" as Heaven.  If that is the case then it directly contradicts what Christ said in John 3:16, the most quoted passage in the New Testament.

“For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who BELIEVES in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned, but anyone who DOES NOT BELIEVE is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God."


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## ddd-shooter (May 25, 2013)

The Bible. 
Read it. 
Live  it. 
Good advice for anyone in any walk of life-even the Pope.


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## Dominic (May 25, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I disagree.  When he made the statement "But do good: we will meet one another there.” , it appears that he is defining "there" as Heaven.  If that is the case then it directly contradicts what Christ said in John 3:16, the most quoted passage in the New Testament.
> 
> “For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who BELIEVES in Him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 Anyone who BELIEVES in Him is not condemned, but anyone who DOES NOT BELIEVE is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the One and Only Son of God."




Pope Francis specified where that meeting place was in the sentence before. 

"We must meet one another _doing good_" 

and before that

If we, each doing our own part, if we do good to others,_ if we meet there, doing good,_ and we go slowly, gently, little by little, we will make that culture of encounter: we need that so much.

We meet one each there where? _There_ at doing good. 

He's talking about meeting each other where we all are doing good. Feeding the poor, comforting the sick, helping our fellow human no matter our beliefs. Before all else we must meet there, at doing good, recognizing that God wrote that good on all our hearts by our redemption through the Blood of Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (May 25, 2013)

We are all made in the Image of God, even Atheist. Christ died for everyone, even the Atheist or Hindu. If, If, If, they use their free will and believe. Of course at that point they would become Christians.
But even in the mean time Atheist can do good, so can Hindus. It's all in us to do good. It's not a pathway to Heaven but it is a start. It will make it easier for them when they do repent.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 29, 2013)

Dominic said:


> Pope Francis specified where that meeting place was in the sentence before.
> 
> "We must meet one another _doing good_"
> 
> ...



After researching this, I stand corrected.  You were right Dominic.


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## Dominic (May 29, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> After researching this, I stand corrected.  You were right Dominic.



Thank you for taking the time, many people would not.


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