# Heaven



## JB0704 (Oct 17, 2011)

Not to derail the other thread about heavenly rewards (but it did get me to thinking), there has been a lot of conversation about heaven in different threads, so I thought I might start one about it and ask some questions of everybody.  I hope all the regulars participate and give me your thoughts.......

When I was a kid, we went to a very small church.  My siblings and I were the only kids there, and everybody else was elderly.  We sang a lot of hymns about heaven (I am sure you are all familiar).  The picture I took away from that experience was that heaven was a very "dull" place.  I know of few descriptions of heaven from the Bible, but thought I would ask for everybody's input:

1. What does the Bible say heaven is like?

2. Are the descriptions of heaven in the Bible intended to be literal?

3. Christians talk about going to heaven as a reward, but I am in no hurry, I love raising my kids and have no interest in going anytime soon.  Is that contrary to what a christian "should" feel?

4. Actually, the concept of heaven is scary to me.  The idea of not knowing my kids, family, and friends is disconcerting.  Am I alone in that?  What is the "Christian" response to these thoughts?


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## StriperAddict (Oct 17, 2011)

Have a look at "Heaven is REAL", a true story of a young boy and his visit.  I don't find a single thing out of kilter with scripture there, and for the record, a very encouraging read for those like you who have some willies over it.

God is a personal/relational God, I expect to see many of loved ones there, plus all the wonder the scriptures say.

When I have time, I'll say more.  Randy Alchorn's book "Heaven" is always an excellent read on the subject, whether you agree with everything or not.


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## JB0704 (Oct 17, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> God is a personal/relational God, I expect to see many of loved ones there, plus all the wonder the scriptures say.



Thanks for your thoughts.  The above quote is contrary to what I have often heard about heaven.  The picture I was given was that nobody would know anybody else as we currently know them.  For me, that has always been a tough thought.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks for your thoughts.  The above quote is contrary to what I have often heard about heaven.  The picture I was given was that nobody would know anybody else as we currently know them.  For me, that has always been a tough thought.


I've heard the same from others, I just don't see any foundation for it.  In fact, there's plenty of scriptures where whole groups are singing and praising God TOGETHER.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 17, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> 1. What does the Bible say heaven is like?



Lots is said about it, but lots is not said about it.  How's that for a PC answer




JB0704 said:


> 2. Are the descriptions of heaven in the Bible intended to be literal?



Some are and some aren't.  Context is the key to that.




JB0704 said:


> 3. Christians talk about going to heaven as a reward, but I am in no hurry, I love raising my kids and have no interest in going anytime soon.  Is that contrary to what a christian "should" feel?



I feel the same way at times.  I love my kids...I love my wife....my life is pretty good.  But then there are times, when I screw up, when I sin, when I am stressed out, when I'm feeling down....that makes me think...wow...to not have to worry about any of this rat race.  And then there are times when I'm worshipping/praising God and I get the chills and have the great feeling inside and think, Heaven is going to be like this all the time...yes, Heaven is a good thing.



JB0704 said:


> 4. Actually, the concept of heaven is scary to me.  The idea of not knowing my kids, family, and friends is disconcerting.



I don't think that is a proper view of Heaven.  Not sure how it is all going to work out in the end, but I know that it is going to be the most wonderful place ever.  I trust God in the fact that He's going to make it more than I could ever imagine.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 17, 2011)

In heaven, there awaits  the inheritance of all God's children.
Any attempt to describe it will fall short.
It is beyond even your imagination.  It will be absolute perfection in every way.
Streets of gold?  No!!  Beyond that.
No more tears?  Yes!  But beyond that the absolute opposite of tears.
Words and human understanding will never describe it.

Moses will be there.  So will Paul, and my mother and dad.
My little baby and my little granddaughter who've already left this life will be there.
And God will be there.  And Jesus, our Lord, the Lamb.

I want to go today.  Right now.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Some are and some aren't.  Context is the key to that..



Streets of gold? Mansions (or how ever they are described)?  My concern with these descriptions are that this seems in line with other religions which assign materialistic rewards post-mortem.  This seems contrary to the nature of our belief system.





rjcruiser said:


> I don't think that is a proper view of Heaven.  Not sure how it is all going to work out in the end, but I know that it is going to be the most wonderful place ever.



That's what they say, but, I am being honest here, the concept is actually disconcerting for me.  Perhaps it is that the way it has been taught has a negative appeal to my perspective.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Moses will be there.  So will Paul, and my mother and dad.
> My little baby and my little granddaughter who've already left this life will be there.
> And God will be there.  And Jesus, our Lord, the Lamb.



It is interesting that you put it that way.  I wish some of you Bible scholars would get a little more in depth on the concept of knowing your loved ones in heaven.  I have always been taught that we will be so focused on God that our personal relationships will be irrelevant.  That, I guess, is the most disconcerting part of it.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Streets of gold? Mansions (or how ever they are described)?  My concern with these descriptions are that this seems in line with other religions which assign materialistic rewards post-mortem.  This seems contrary to the nature of our belief system.



Really?  Why do you think that it is contrary to the nature of our belief system?  I guess what rewards does the Bible mention....I know it says we'll have crowns of glory, but I'm not aware of more than that.

Doesn't every good thing come from God?  What is the purpose of trials?  What is the purpose of blessings?




JB0704 said:


> ]
> That's what they say, but, I am being honest here, the concept is actually disconcerting for me.  Perhaps it is that they way it has been taught has a negative appeal to my perspective.



What's the Bible say?  When pastors start saying what they think, I usually start to tune out.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  Why do you think that it is contrary to the nature of our belief system?



Materialistic rewards. 



rjcruiser said:


> What's the Bible say?



That is what I am asking you, or anybody else who knows anything about the subject.  I dawned on me that most of my impression of heaven is derived from old hymns (I've got a mansion, etc.).  These songs were written by folks who's life was incredibly difficult, and death was an escape.  I am not sure how much of their picture of heaven was influenced by their status in life.


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## stringmusic (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> It is interesting that you put it that way.  I wish some of you Bible scholars would get a little more in depth on the concept of knowing your loved ones in heaven.  I have always been taught that we will be so focused on God that* our personal relationships will be irrelevant.  That, I guess, is the most disconcerting part of it.*



That is a pride issue JB. I'm not saying your terrible or anything like that, pride IMO, is at the core of every sin that we commit. God will provide in Heaven as He does on earth.

I believe we will have perfect love in heaven, what I mean by that is, we will love everyone the way we were designed to love in the first place. No pride, no wants, no nothing, just pure love.

You will love everybody in heaven the same way you love your wife and kids, equally, with perfect love..... you and ol' HF will even love each other perfectly. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (I crack me up)

The point that I am trying to make is, I don't necessarily think you wont know who people are in heaven, just that there wont be any preferential love.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> That is a pride issue JB. I'm not saying your terrible or anything like that, pride IMO, is at the core of every sin that we commit. God will provide in Heaven as He does on earth.



What?  How?  Are you saying I am sinning?  I don't see how me thinking heaven would include eternity without my kids as bad is pride. 



stringmusic said:


> ..... you and ol' HF will even love each other perfectly.



You know we are talking about _heaven_, right? 




stringmusic said:


> The point that I am trying to make is, I don't necessarily think you wont know who people are in heaven, just that there wont be any preferential love.



Okay, but what is your context for these beliefs?


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

Read Revelation as well as Daniel.

Like others have said, Randy Alcorn's book Heaven is a good study, although a lot of it is personal opinion and self-drawn conclusions from his study of scripture.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Read Revelation as well as Daniel.
> 
> Like others have said, Randy Alcorn's book Heaven is a good study, although a lot of it is personal opinion and self-drawn conclusions from his study of scripture.



I have read revelation, as well as Daniel.  From my understanding, Daniel's perspective is different because it was pre-cucifixion.

Revelation is debated heavily amongst believers, I have read it many, many times, and cannot really make heads or tails of it.

What I am asking for is this: what does the Bible say heaven is, according to your (anyone who reads this) interpretation?  Streets of gold and mansions, a bunch of celestial beings singing non-stop for eternity, or a place where earthly relationships endure.

I will put Alcorn's book on my list.


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## stringmusic (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> What?  How?  Are you saying I am sinning?  I don't see how me thinking heaven would include eternity without my kids as bad is pride.



I don't know that I would necessarily call it a sin. Worring about what_ you _are going to want when_ you _get to heaven is a pride issue though. Like I said, I believe pride is at the core of every issue we have as humans.





> You know we are talking about _heaven_, right?







> Okay, but what is your context for these beliefs?


I should have started my last post with, "this is what I think". I have yet to read where the bible explicitly talks about exactly we will know when we get to heaven.

There is some crazy stuff going on in Ezekial that is interesting.


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## formula1 (Oct 18, 2011)

*Re:*

I don't think the most ardent of believers in Christ comprehend the wonders of heaven. I don't think our human minds can fathom it.  This fact is evidenced in scripture with the efforts of men like Isaiah (Ch6), Ezekiel (ch1), Daniel (Ch 7), and John (Revelation 1) attempting to do their best to humanly describe what they saw. At best we have a glimpse of His Glory and that is all He wants us to have until that day.

This scripture has always best reminded me of the hope, the wonder, and the inheritance that we as believers in Christ shall one day attain.  I hope it blesses you!

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I have read revelation, as well as Daniel.  From my understanding, Daniel's perspective is different because it was pre-cucifixion.
> 
> Revelation is debated heavily amongst believers, I have read it many, many times, and cannot really make heads or tails of it.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't just ask for anyone's interpretation.

Get a good commentary written by someone who has more knowledge of the original text than everyone on this forum (with the exception of Lowjack )

I think that there will be singing for eternity.  Streets of gold?  Well, that might be non-literal.

More to think about...what about the creation of a new heaven and a new earth?  Imagine living in the garden of eden.  I think Heaven will be a lot like that...perfect in every way.  No weeds to pull, no poison ivey to watch out for...just perfection.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know that I would necessarily call it a sin. Worring about what_ you _are going to want when_ you _get to heaven is a pride issue though. Like I said, I believe pride is at the core of every issue we have as humans.



Well, I am discussing _my_ perspective, and asking for yours.

This is not a "trick question," I have no answer or rebuttal lined up.  I am genuinely curious as to what folks believe on the topic.  I have also been honest in the fact that heaven does not sound pleasant to me, as has been trafditionally taught.  That is honesty, not pride.  I was hoping it could kick start a genuine conversation on the topic.

Think about us, the Christians, we debate over everything.  This one topic, though extremely applicable to our belief system, seems to be very confusing to all.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I don't think the most ardent of believers in Christ comprehend the wonders of heaven. I don't think our human minds can fathom it.  This fact is evidenced in scripture with the efforts of men like Isaiah (Ch6), Ezekiel (ch1), Daniel (Ch 7), and John (Revelation 1) attempting to do their best to humanly describe what they saw. At best we have a glimpse of His Glory and that is all He wants us to have until that day.



Good thoughts, and this is kind-of what I was getting at, or looking for.  We have no real clear picture of heaven.  But, what do we teach our kids?  I know what I was taught makes me very sad.  I know that sadness is not part of the equation, so I must be wrong.  I am left without an answer to a fundamental part of my belief system.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> More to think about...what about the creation of a new heaven and a new earth?  Imagine living in the garden of eden.  I think Heaven will be a lot like that...perfect in every way.  No weeds to pull, no poison ivey to watch out for...just perfection.



....no hunting, no fishing, no baby back ribs or BBQ, no football, baseball, or many of the other parts of life which could only exist outside the garden which we find joy in.

I am not arguing the point, just pointing out why the garden also causes me confusion.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 18, 2011)

JB, you can read other books concerning Revelation but usually doing that only adds to the speculation.  And when it comes to speculation, yours will be as good as anyone elses.

The Apostle John is seeing a vision of heaven along with the many things that are there now and the things that will happen in the future.
John, based on what he sees, begins to describe it for us.  He describes things that "look like" things that we can identify with.  He sees beings that are totally unfamiliar to him, and he identifies them to us as best he can.

I believe John's words are the feeble attempt of an inspired man to describe the indescribable in human terms.

Consider Revelation chap 1.
12 Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands; 13 and in the middle of the lampstands I saw one like a son of man, clothed in a robe reaching to the feet, and girded across His chest with a golden sash. 14 His head and His hair were white like white wool, like snow; and His eyes were like a flame of fire. 15 His feet were like burnished bronze, when it has been made to glow in a furnace, and His voice was like the sound of many waters. 16 In His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was like the sun shining in its strength. 

I have considered the above verses at least a hundred times trying to get a real vision of what John must have been trying to present to me.  Personally, I don't believe there was a knife sticking out of His mouth!  But the description is important none the less.
His feet were *like* burnished bronze.  Again, John's description of the unbelievable and indescribable scene he was witnessing.

It must have been amazing.... And thus the speculation.

As far as knowing our loved ones in heaven, I think you can choose for yourself which you'll believe.  I don't think the Bible will give you or me a 100 percent foolproof answer.
Based on some things Paul said to the folks in Thessalonica, I think we'll know.
But, maybe not.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....no hunting, no fishing, no baby back ribs or BBQ, no football, baseball, or many of the other parts of life which could only exist outside the garden which we find joy in.
> 
> I am not arguing the point, just pointing out why the garden also causes me confusion.



What makes you think that they didn't play games?

What makes you think they didn't eat meat?

Don't limit perfection


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> What makes you think that they didn't play games?
> 
> What makes you think they didn't eat meat?
> 
> Don't limit perfection



Football invovles physical violence (read pain).  Baseball cannot be perfect because everybody would hit a home run which makes the pitcher the opposite of perfect.

Pretty sure man did not eat meat until after the flood, or maybe the fall, not sure.  But, either way, eating meat would involve killing something.

I am not limiting perfection, just saying death is involved in eating meat, and somebody has to lose when playing a game. So those two are logically ruled out.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

Really?  Sure, there is a little pain in football, but it is good pain.  Think of it as football with no injuries.

Why would eating meat involve killing something?  Can't God create meat without the animal?

Can't losing be gratifying as well as winning?

To me, it seems that you want to limit God and His perfection.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> JB, you can read other books concerning Revelation but usually doing that only adds to the speculation.  And when it comes to speculation, yours will be as good as anyone elses.



I tend to agree.  Even the timing of Christ's return, in reference to tribulation, is very much a debate amongst Christians.  Revelation is plain confusing.  Funny, though, it is my son's favorite thing to read. I guess the dragons and horsemen appeal to his sense of adventure.



Ronnie T said:


> As far as knowing our loved ones in heaven, I think you can choose for yourself which you'll believe.  I don't think the Bible will give you or me a 100 percent foolproof answer.
> Based on some things Paul said to the folks in Thessalonica, I think we'll know.
> But, maybe not.



I hope we will know.  Otherwise, like I have said, the whole concept is very sad to me.

I appreciate your thoughts here.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Really?  Sure, there is a little pain in football, but it is good pain.  Think of it as football with no injuries.



Well, that would be just dull,  and somebody would have to lose 



rjcruiser said:


> Why would eating meat involve killing something?  Can't God create meat without the animal?



But, God created animals for meat, right?  So, he would have known they were the source of meat.  Let's leave that one and go on to this one......no hunting or fishing....



rjcruiser said:


> Can't losing be gratifying as well as winning?



No. 

I am not limiting God, just trying to understand the appeal of heaven, because I never have.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> I have also been honest in the fact that heaven does not sound pleasant to me, as has been trafditionally taught.





> I am not limiting God, just trying to understand the appeal of heaven, because I never have.



Can I ask...then what draws you to Christ?  He promised a difficult life if you follow him that is counter to everything in your nature.  If heaven and eternity there are not appealing to you as you've been traditionally taught it will be....why follow him?

No trick question here either.  It's just what occurred to me as I read your post.  Do you have some alternative view of heaven that is counter to what you've always heard and that is what you're looking forward to?


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Well, that would be just dull,  and somebody would have to lose
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You never toss back in the fish?  What if you could do that with hunting as well?

Just saying...don't limit God to finite terms.  Maybe you go and shoot the deer, it dies, you go pose with it...then it is resurrected.

Who knows...just don't limit what it could be like.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

I believe in Christ based on the logical conclusion of God's existence, which leads me to believe he has power over life and death (original cause for life).  Then, I believe the gospels when they record the resurection.  So, Jesus has power over life and death, and must be God.  His message is one of grace, mercy, and redemption (for those who repent......just for you centerpin), loving your neighbor, feeding the poor.  All of the good things in humanity.  That is what draws me.

It has nothing to do with the heavenly reward.

I could paint a picture of what heaven would be to me, but that would not be biblically justifiable.  It would involve a shack in the woods next to the ocean so I could fish the surf, hunt the woods, cook BBQ, and hang out with my wife and kids and friends for all of eternity, and thank God for all of his goodness while I enjoy it.......

.......but, there is no biblical justification for that perspective, and it is completely materialistic and self-centered (in contrast with Jesus' message of selflessness), just like all other pictures of heaven I have ever heard painted.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

RJ, I really appreciate your input.  

Sure I toss the fish back, but I am not so certain they enjoy the process.  As far as catch and release hunting....well, I am what folks call a "meat hunter."  I love to eat deer, and my primitive insticts find great satisfaction in eating backstrap from a deer I hunted, not sure where it comes from, but its a lot better than anything I can buy in the store.

Again, I am not limiting God, just asking for perspective from the Bible.  You may be correct, but I don't think you have Biblical justification for your position, and I readily admit that I don't either.


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## rjcruiser (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Again, I am not limiting God, just asking for perspective from the Bible.  You may be correct, but I don't think you have Biblical justification for your position, and I readily admit that I don't either.



Except for the fact that I know the Bible says that it will be the most wonderful place ever imagined.

If God cares for me and allows me to have joy and happiness in this wretched place we call Earth, how much better is heaven going to be?

The scriptures say it is beyond measure.....beyond description.....beyond the outerbanks of NC where you can only get to with 4x4


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Except for the fact that I know the Bible says that it will be the most wonderful place ever imagined.



Not doubting, but where?  I am curious (and mean this sincerely).



rjcruiser said:


> The scriptures say it is beyond measure.....beyond description.....beyond the outerbanks of NC where you can only get to with 4x4



If you ever get a chance, you should go there (outer banks, north end, Corrolla)......that place is "heaven on earth."   I didn't post the link in the other thread, but here is where we stayed:

http://www.twiddy.com/homes/4x4/carova-beach/sands-of-time.aspx

Absolutely amazing!

 I plan on taking the whole family next summer.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> I believe in Christ based on the logical conclusion of God's existence, which leads me to believe he has power over life and death (original cause for life). Then, I believe the gospels when they record the resurection. So, Jesus has power over life and death, and must be God. His message is one of grace, mercy, and redemption (for those who repent......just for you centerpin), loving your neighbor, feeding the poor. All of the good things in humanity. That is what draws me.



Deists believe in a god based on the evidence as well.  Isn't there something more than just the evidence and a nice message?




> It has nothing to do with the heavenly reward.



I wasn't talking about "reward" in heaven.  I was talking more about your statements that what you have heard about heaven to this point is not appealing to you in the least.  

That just sounds odd to me.  You follow God based on the evidence and the message...but the eternal destination (i.e. the reason for the cross) doesn't appeal to you as you currently understand it.  I'm not sure I'd sign up for something like that.




> I could paint a picture of what heaven would be to me, but that would not be biblically justifiable. It would involve a shack in the woods next to the ocean so I could fish the surf, hunt the woods, cook BBQ, and hang out with my wife and kids and friends for all of eternity, and thank God for all of his goodness while I enjoy it.......
> 
> .......but, there is no biblical justification for that perspective, and it is completely materialistic and self-centered (in contrast with Jesus' message of selflessness), just like all other pictures of heaven I have ever heard painted.



What you're describing is the "best" thing you could possibly imagine...in a fallen world that is corrupted by sin.  So, de facto (and this is not a shot at you...just walk with me on the logic), what you're saying is "I want Heaven to be exactly like the best parts of the world that was so corrupt and twisted that God had to send his own son to die just to save it".

Yes...I understand that you didn't actually say that.  Yes, I understand that I'm "putting words in your mouth".  I'm just trying to walk down the logic trail of what you posted.  I agree with you.  All of those things are AWESOME (throw in a brew and you had me at 'hello'!)!!  But they are ONLY the best parts about a fallen world.  Imagine how much better heaven would be.

I don't have an answer for you.  The best I have is 1 Cor 2:9 where we are reminded that no eye has seen and no ear has heard the things that await us.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> http://www.twiddy.com/homes/4x4/caro...s-of-time.aspx



I hear ya!  Now that's a vacation!


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I hear ya!  Now that's a vacation!



Some fella was asking in another thread for honeymoon ideas, that is where My wife and I went.  You know I married well when my wife let me go fishing every day of our honeymoon!


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

You got to stay there and fish every day?  Yep, I'd go ahead and hang on to that one.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Deists believe in a god based on the evidence as well.  Isn't there something more than just the evidence and a nice message?.



Sure, but the evidence and the message is the answer to the question: "why do I believe"



Huntinfool said:


> You follow God based on the evidence and the message...but the eternal destination (i.e. the reason for the cross) doesn't appeal to you as you currently understand it.  I'm not sure I'd sign up for something like that..



I believe the cross was salvation, not reward.  I guess I am looking at it from a different angle than you.  And, well, from my current understanding (fallen), "wonderful" involves my loved ones.  I distinctly remember being taught that we wouldn't know anybody, or care, when we got to heaven.  That feels cold.  Because we relate to love through our loved ones, and that is the only perspective we have on the topic.  Removing that, to me, seems odd.  Does that make sense?



Huntinfool said:


> But they are ONLY the best parts about a fallen world.  Imagine how much better heaven would be.



But the fallen perspective is the one we were given.  I am not declaring heaven dull.  I am saying I don't get it as traditionally conveyed.  I am asking other Christians for perspective and insight and wisdom.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You got to stay there and fish every day?  Yep, I'd go ahead and hang on to that one.



Yep!  The ocean was right out the back door!  I did it right, and married a Georgia girl!


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## formula1 (Oct 18, 2011)

*Re:*

I thought heaven, or the concept of life with Christ, or life eternal, was well described in the scripture I posted from 1 Peter above, not details mind you, but concepts:

"an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading"

Does anyone know of anywhere on earth that can be described as such?  I don't!

Though I don't know the details, this paints a wonderful picture I can imagine and hope for that I cannot find on earth anywhere!

I have had many wonderful experiences and been to many wonderful places and met many wonderful people.  Yet I know that none of the most wonderful things in my life can compare to God's promised inheritance kept in heaven for each one of us who live for Him.  It is truly more wonderful than I can imagine!


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

F1, I have focused on the details more than the concept.  I guess it is because the concepts, to my limited perspective, would include certain details.  I guess that is why it is confusing to me.  Again, thanks for your input.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

HF, if I believed the logic and message, it would be silly to quit believing based on destination wouldn't it?

I am certain there are many things about faith we do not like, but must accept because we believe.  Maybe that is a better way of looking at my predicament.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> Sure, but the evidence and the message is the answer to the question: "why do I believe"



So...not to be picky.  But what I asked was "What draws you?" and "Why follow?"  As I said, deists believe a god exists based on the evidence as to many agnostics.  But why follow if heaven is un-appealing?  I assume that you believe Heaven IS appealing...you just don't know what it's going to be like?



> I believe the cross was salvation, not reward.



Again...I didn't say it was reward.  But the point of the cross was to atone for sin that we might be reconciled with God....for the purpose of eternal life....in heaven.  See where I'm coming from?



So I'm guessing the "we won't know anybody we love and won't care" comment possibly came in the context of "Who will we be married to in heaven if we've divorced and re-married or had a spouse die and re-married?"  That's when I've heard it and the traditional response is "Well, we won't be married in heaven.  We won't have loved ones like we currently understand.  It's all focused on God."

I've heard what you are saying.  I have not seen a biblical support for it though.  Honestly, I believe the Bible tells us that we don't know what heaven is like specifically.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> HF, if I believed the logic and message, it would be silly to quit believing based on destination wouldn't it?



Would you continue to believe if the only difference was that the Bible said the end destination for those who follow Christ was He||?

Maybe that doesn't make sense.  I'll try to clarify later.  Have to get back to studying and this is distracting me!




> I am certain there are many things about faith we do not like, but must accept because we believe. Maybe that is a better way of looking at my predicament.



I don't follow.  Can you clarify?

We are even to consider trials joy, right?


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> So...not to be picky.  But what I asked was "What draws you?" and "Why follow?"  As I said, deists believe a god exists based on the evidence as to many agnostics.  But why follow if heaven is un-appealing?  I assume that you believe Heaven IS appealing...you just don't know what it's going to be like?.



Refer to previous comments.  My faith is based on logic, that is how it works for me, that is how I am "wired."  I could not believe if it did not make sense on some level.  I know that sounds ridiculous ot those who have "simple faith."  And I have said it before, I wish I was more like them.

But, the truth is, there are many parts of the faith folks would prefer to change, but they are what they are, and they are not what belief is based upon.

Yes, I believe in heaven.  No, it has never sounded appealing to me.  Yes, I hope I am wrong and that heaven is awesome, as F1 described in his posts.



Huntinfool said:


> Again...I didn't say it was reward.  But the point of the cross was to atone for sin that we might be reconciled with God....for the purpose of eternal life....in heaven.  See where I'm coming from?.



It depends on if heaven is a reward or a byproduct of reconcilliation.....a return to the garden like RJ alluded to.




Huntinfool said:


> Honestly, I believe the Bible tells us that we don't know what heaven is like specifically.



Cool.  My original point was to ask what the Bible actually said about the topic, kind-of to see if somebody could refute the "don't know your loved ones" concept which has always bothered me.  I also find this stuff interesting.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't follow.  Can you clarify?
> 
> We are even to consider trials joy, right?



Imagine you are a woman who wants to preach.  I think that is the best example I can find.


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## hawglips (Oct 18, 2011)

Romans 8:  17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> HF, if I believed the logic and message, it would be silly to quit believing based on destination wouldn't it?



Actually...as I think about this.  I think you're right even though it's a reality that I'm not 100% wanting to accept.

If there was no salvation.  If there was no Jesus on the cross.  If God chose to punish all of us for eternity, he would still be God and he would still be worthy of praise by his creation.  I'm trying to come to grips with that and live it lately...not doing such a great job if I'm honest.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> Yes, I hope I am wrong and that heaven is awesome, as F1 described in his posts.



I guess what I'm getting at is I would expect a believer and follower to word that like this:

"Yes, I KNOW I am wrong and that heaven is awesome, as F1 described in his posts."

You're leaving the possibility that you might be disappointed in the above.  You don't really think you might, do you?


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I guess what I'm getting at is I would expect a believer and follower to word that like this:
> 
> "Yes, I KNOW I am wrong and that heaven is awesome, as F1 described in his posts."
> 
> You're leaving the possibility that you might be disappointed in the above.  You don't really think you might, do you?



Well, not all believers are the same.  We see things differently, and you and I prove that every day on this forum.

I mean a broader interpretation. So, let me clarify what I meant:

"I hope I know my kids in heaven, that would be awesome!"

As to the idea of disappointment, that would be contrary to scripture.  But it is also contrary to what I have been taught scripture means, thus the confusion.

I think Hawglips' scripture reference is a good indication of knowing our loved ones in heaven.  It is something to cling to, anyway.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2011)

I think the thread I posted about the Revelation teaching at my home church is pretty good. There was part 3 this past sunday that I've not listened to yet. But if you want it explained in an easy to understand manner, then go to that link and start at Oct 2....that is 1 of 7 teachings. It's only the sermon, maybe 30 to 40 minutes...praise and worship is listed seperately so you don't have to listen to that unless you wanna, it is good praise and worship though.

The teaching starts at the beginning of revelation. Of course we're not all gonna believe everything we hear, but Jimmy is a great bible teacher. He knows his stuff for sure.

Ronnie the two edged sword coming out of His mouth is the word of God.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2011)

Now for my 2cents on what heaven will be like.

First of all there will be no tears....so we will not remember those that were not saved with us...like our children or family or neighbors. I believe we will know each other and it's possible that we may even have some of our pets, I dunno on that one. But God wants to give us the desires of our heart, but when we are in heaven our desires will be different than they are on earth. But I do believe we will know our children and our parents, but they will be brothers and sisters in Christ.

I imagine heaven could be something similar to what eden would've been. Like a paradise. We know it's gonna be here on earth. We can't fatham it, but we won't be sick, or sad no matter what. So we won't feel any loss. We will just be happy.

Just that there will be no tears is awesome to me. No more broken hearts!

I'll meet y'all there....ok?...if'n I can find your fishin' hole.


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## jmharris23 (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Not to derail the other thread about heavenly rewards (but it did get me to thinking), there has been a lot of conversation about heaven in different threads, so I thought I might start one about it and ask some questions of everybody.  I hope all the regulars participate and give me your thoughts.......
> 
> When I was a kid, we went to a very small church.  My siblings and I were the only kids there, and everybody else was elderly.  We sang a lot of hymns about heaven (I am sure you are all familiar).  The picture I took away from that experience was that heaven was a very "dull" place.  I know of few descriptions of heaven from the Bible, but thought I would ask for everybody's input:
> 
> ...



Answers in blue


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> I believe they are to be taken as literal as you would take a description of some place by someone who is seeing something they have never seen that is beyond human comprehension. (i.e. think of a child trying to explain something magnificent. There inability to describe something to a complete and perfect detail makes their description no less real to them. They are just using the best language and mental images available to them to describe seeing the before unseen)



I think this is a great answer and very well put.  It's not literal in the sense that that is exactly what it will be like.  It was an attempt to put into words something that was indescribable.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I think this is a great answer and very well put.  It's not literal in the sense that that is exactly what it will be like.  It was an attempt to put into words something that was indescribable.



Not to take away from his points, because they were all good ones, but this is another point of cunfusion.  We claim "God breathed" in scripture, and typically repell any effort to see human elements in scripture....except this one area.  

I do see human elements in scripture, and understand this line of thinking.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I'll meet y'all there....ok?...if'n I can find your fishin' hole.



....Just look for the old huntin' shack by the crystal sea


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## Huntinfool (Oct 18, 2011)

> Not to take away from his points, because they were all good ones, but this is another point of cunfusion. We claim "God breathed" in scripture, and typically repell any effort to see human elements in scripture....except this one area.
> 
> I do see human elements in scripture, and understand this line of thinking.



IMO, God inspired does not equal God breathed.  God breathed implies to me that he actually wrote it down.  God inspired implies that man wrote it down, but that it is the wholely inspired Word of God and so it is not to be viewed as errant.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2011)

But I don't wanna learn to play the harp...

I think heaven is gonna be awesome, after we get judged, I dread that part...ugh.

All I really care about is seeing my loved ones....and most of all my Saviours face! I cannot wait to hit the ground, face down to Him.

Streets of gold or mansions in the sky, I dunno about. I'll assume that's what it will be like since that's what the word says. But I doubt that my imagination could ever even grasp what heaven is gonna be like.

I did listen to the message today on Rev. that I have the link and thread up about. And John said when he saw the new heaven and earth there was no sea...but sea means kaos. Same place the antichrist is gonna come up out of....the sea...not the literal sea, but the world will be in kaos and the antichrist will come out of the sea of kaos and save the world temporarily.
Jimmy gives current news updates relating to his teaching, too. Not like he's prophesying or anything like that, but showing us how it could be any time, so straighten up.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....Just look for the old huntin' shack by the crystal sea



Or just any ol' fishin' hole, eh?

I'll be walking in the grass barefoot, eating fresh pineapple with my mama and daddy.....no daddy will be at the fishin' hole....


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> IMO, God inspired does not equal God breathed.  God breathed implies to me that he actually wrote it down.  God inspired implies that man wrote it down, but that it is the wholely inspired Word of God and so it is not to be viewed as errant.



Different translations come to different conclusions on that one.  My point was that many of us will argue till we are blue in the face that there is no human influence on scripture.  Then, we take revelation and say, well, the author was only human.  I am not questioning the validity of the point, only pointing out that there are differing levels of human influence we assign to different parts of scripture.  I am not trying to drag the thread in that direction, only point out what seems additionally confusing.


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## JB0704 (Oct 18, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> But I don't wanna learn to play the harp...



....that too.




mtnwoman said:


> All I really care about is seeing my loved ones....and most of all my Saviours face!



Right. But I have always been told I wouldn't know they were my loved ones, which troubles me.  It seems everybody in here thinks we will, and that is cool.  I am just throwing out questions and hoping an answer comes floating back.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 18, 2011)

This does not answer the OP question but does give something to ponder. The world has progressed since the first Adam. Not always good. But heaven will be like the original progression intentions had Adam not sinned.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> ....that too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You will know them.

For a long time (and I will make this short)...I didn't believe or didn't know if we would know them. But I am totally convicted that we will. It took me a long time to get to that point.

But just in case I could be wrong, I won't know the difference....I won't be sad.  But honestly when my daddy died I dug in deep and would not let up until I knew that I knew that I knew. I had not rededicated my life at my fathers death which I will regret as long as I'm alive on this earth. But his death brought about my rededication and then I was on fire and did not let up until I knew deep down in my spirit, that I would see him again. No one can convince me differently....my poor daddy grieved a long time over his 5 lost children, but we all rededicated within a few years of his death. We all know we will see each other...even if I do have to dot my youngest brother's eyes a couple of times....


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> This does not answer the OP question but does give something to ponder. The world has progressed since the first Adam. Not always good. But heaven will be like the original progression intentions had Adam not sinned.



Sounds good to me...and I agree.


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## hawglips (Oct 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> This does not answer the OP question but does give something to ponder. The world has progressed since the first Adam. Not always good. But heaven will be like the original progression intentions had Adam not sinned.



Do you think God intended for Adam to never sin?  We would not be had Adam not sinned.  God knew Adam would sin and the Savior was planned for all along.


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## JB0704 (Oct 20, 2011)

hawglips said:


> Do you think God intended for Adam to never sin?



Are you saying sin was God's plan, or his design?



hawglips said:


> We would not be had Adam not sinned.



???


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## ambush80 (Oct 20, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> Are you saying sin was God's plan, or his design?
> 
> 
> 
> ???



Interesting question.  If He has a plan but He allows man to mess it up then He's just observing, maybe influencing on occasion.  If He designs everything then that's another thing entirely.  In either case, is there actual Biblical doctrine that describes these ideas or is His nature just inferred from His actions in the stories?


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## JB0704 (Oct 20, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> Interesting question.  If He has a plan but He allows man to mess it up then He's just observing, maybe influencing on occasion.  If He designs everything then that's another thing entirely.  In either case, is there actual Biblical doctrine that describes these ideas or is His nature just inferred from His actions in the stories?




I don't think it is all one or the other.  But the first example, observing with minimal influence, would be my best guess from reading the Bible. However, there is also a "plan."  That does not mean man follows script. 

For me, the logical problem is that if he designs everything, and everything is his will, then every horrible atrocity that ever happened was part of the plan.  That does not line up with other attributes assigned to God.


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## ambush80 (Oct 20, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> I don't think it is all one or the other.  But the first example, observing with minimal influence, would be my best guess from reading the Bible. However, there is also a "plan."  That does not mean man follows script.
> 
> For me, the logical problem is that if he designs everything, and everything is his will, then every horrible atrocity that ever happened was part of the plan.  That does not line up with other attributes assigned to God.



I don't know, He does some pretty mean stuff (by our standards).  And He's described as being kind of petty sometimes; jealous and wrathful and what not.  

When I hear the thoughts of the various kinds of Christians, I'm conflicted.  On the one hand there are the ones like you who, forgive me for oversimplifying,  temper Biblical doctrine with reason.  The extremes of these are the Universalists and the Unitarians. On the other hand there are the ones who are fundamentalists, who take it all literally.  In the latter category the Amish come to mind.  And then there is everything in between.  I would say that the majority of the Southern Baptists are closer to the Amish but not as close as the "snake handlers".

My conflict the fact that I tend to admire moderate or even liberal Christians in general, but there seems to be something genuine or sincere about the extreme fundamentalists.  It's as if, to my mind, if one is going to devote themselves to such an esoteric practice as adherence to a religious doctrine, then one should do it with the utmost devotion and in its purest form.

That being said, it is plainly obvious that God is not beyond doing some horrible things that if a human were to do the same things they would be labeled a monster.  But God is all good.  So, if I were to be a believer, I would have to say that God does some things that we would call bad but when He does it, it is good; a special kind of good that we can't comprehend or rationalize.  The African girl being eaten alive by vulture is good.  I don't see any way around it.


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## JB0704 (Oct 20, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> That being said, it is plainly obvious that God is not beyond doing some horrible things that if a human were to do the same things they would be labeled a monster.  But God is all good.  So, if I were to be a believer, I would have to say that God does some things that we would call bad but when He does it, it is good; a special kind of good that we can't comprehend or rationalize.  The African girl being eaten alive by vulture is good.  I don't see any way around it.



You see, I don't give God the blame for the African girl being eaten by a vulture.  I give the credit to bad government and human failure.  So, it is not good.  God created the universe, and one of the characteritics is free will, Eve had a choice, right?  We discussed this in the other thread, if there is a variable (choice) then the future is not "set in stone."  If it is not, then how is it completely knowable?  

I look at it like this, we know the sun is coming up tomorrow, but we don't know if we will be there to see it.  So, in one way, we know the future, in another way, we don't.

I believe reason and faith can work hand in hand if you think outside the box of religion.


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## ambush80 (Oct 20, 2011)

JB0704 said:


> You see, I don't give God the blame for the African girl being eaten by a vulture.  I give the credit to bad government and human failure.  So, it is not good.  God created the universe, and one of the characteritics is free will, Eve had a choice, right?  We discussed this in the other thread, if there is a variable (choice) then the future is not "set in stone."  If it is not, then how is it completely knowable?
> 
> I look at it like this, we know the sun is coming up tomorrow, but we don't know if we will be there to see it.  So, in one way, we know the future, in another way, we don't.
> 
> I believe reason and faith can work hand in hand if you think outside the box of religion.




I see where you're coming from.  The problems always seem to pop up when the supernatural becomes involved.  Also when the basis for understanding the supernatural is a book like the Bible or the Koran or the mythology of the American Indians.

I admire that you take the best from the Bible and don't get hung up on the parts that are clearly the fantasies of ancient herdsmen or the efforts of religious leaders to control the masses.

Carry on good Sir.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 25, 2011)

Has anyone else ever noticed that people who support the theory that we will all know our family in heaven, only portray that theory in the most positive way?  It is always focused on the people who we actually love and want to see again.  There are too many examples to count of family relationships that hold nothing but horrible memories.  Some of the most evil and unthinkable acts are committed upon family members.


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## polkhunt (Oct 25, 2011)

I think heaven is there for us to worship God and that is the only reason. I think we will not know one person from another and will not care because we will have no remembrance of this side of life anyway.


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## G5BONECRUSHER (Oct 27, 2011)

I don't know if the streets of gold and crystal sea and river of life are meant to be taken literally or not. I do believe we will have perfected bodies, angelic, and similar to God. I also believe we will know both our family and Friends if they are in heaven.  Here are a few of the scriptures that lead me to believe that.

  Philippians 3:20-21 states that he will transform our bodies to be like him.
John 14 1-3 Jesus says that where he is there we will be also.
Psalm 16:11 says that being in his presence is fullness of Joy, and in his right hand are pleasures forever.
I can’t comprehend that but it sounds awesome!

Upon the death of Abraham, Ishmael, Issac, Jacob, Aaron and Moses In Genisis  the bible states they were each “gathered unto their people” what would be the purpose of mentioning this if there was no recognition at the reunion.

In Luke 16 Abraham remembered that Lazarus received bad things during his life on earth. Abraham died before Lazarus so he could see Lazarus from Heaven. If he could see why couldn’t our loved ones see us and remember us when we get there?

Matthew 8 says we will share a banquet with Abraham and Lazarus. 

Perhaps if we will know each other differently it will be because we know ourselves and others more completely or fully? 
1 corinthians 13: 12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face ; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

Romans 14:10  Says we will stand before the judgment seat and give an account of our actions How could we do that if we don’t remember?

Mark 12:25 "For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.

I believe in Greek word for marry above is gam-eh'-o and means to give in marriage

Jesus doesn't say that we won't stay married if we died married.

Or could Jesus be saying there will be no arranged or forced marriages in heaven?

When it comes to continually being in his presence and praising and worshiping him continually  forever....

Wouldn't you agree  that if our sin and sin nature, distractions, and sleep were eliminated that could be entirely possible here on earth. I praise and worship God all the time while doing things with my family, or hunting (I sure hope there is a Golden Horned Whitetail for me to chase around with a Bow!) but its sin that really gets in the way. 

I imagine it a lot like this world just better in every way with no sin, sickness, worry, or death . No matter what I know that he is faithful to fulfill his promise and Heaven is gonna be amazing! I want to stay here as long as he will let me though.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 27, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Has anyone else ever noticed that people who support the theory that we will all know our family in heaven, only portray that theory in the most positive way?  It is always focused on the people who we actually love and want to see again.  There are too many examples to count of family relationships that hold nothing but horrible memories.  Some of the most evil and unthinkable acts are committed upon family members.



Well there will be no tears, so anything horrible we won't remember. And if we don't recognize each other we still won't know the difference, because there is no tears. Nor will we remember who didn't get to heaven.

It comforts me to think that we will know our family members that we believe are in heaven, but again if we don't we won't know the difference, we will be transformed into something other than what we are now.


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## GOoutdoors (Oct 29, 2011)

I haven't read all the responses, so I apologize if I'm repeating some stuff.  I highly recommend Randy Alcorn's book, "Heaven."  But I caution you that Alcorn may get carried away some with speculating about Heaven.  However, I think his book causes you to study God's word and discover a better picture of what Heaven is like.  It may even help us order our life better in the here-and-now.

The main passages on Heaven are Ezekiel 1:4-28, Isaiah 60, & Revelation 21-22.

I think Alcorn is correct in saying that Heaven will not be a mystical, ethereal existence, but will actually be a physical existence on a new earth - in a new body, absent the presence or power of sin.  Our joy will be to the fullest.

Another way I like to think about this relates to how we mature.  Looking back, I realize that many of my childish notions were so wrong and distorted.  When I became an adult, I understood things from a new or more complete perspective.  I think our transition into Heaven will be the same way.  Spiritually, we are just "children" now.  I don't know about you, but I can't wait to grow up!


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## fireman32 (Nov 23, 2011)

just to add a question my older brother died at a very young age and I'm sure he is in heaven so how old are you in heaven, is your soul the perfect age like Christ 33 years old.  Do children who die remain young souls and old souls remain old?
My theory is a finite mind will never understand an infinite being or his power until you meet him. Just my .02
Not trying to hijack the thread.


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