# Jordan Peterson



## ambush80 (Apr 12, 2018)

I like this guy's clear thinking most of the time.  Watch how hard he struggles with the basic foundation of his Christian faith because he's a scientist.  I admire this guy.


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## ambush80 (Apr 12, 2018)

By the way, I heard another guy on a podcast say something about engaging with opposite ideas to challenge one's own and that the collision of the ideas can sometimes yield the truth.  I admire all you believers for coming down here and challenging your beliefs.  

I don't think there's a way that any of the atheists or agnostics here could go in the Spiritual Discussions and Study forum to challenge our beliefs.  Could you imagine what would happen if I went in there and tried to discuss scientifically how Jesus walked on water?  It's not the place for open debate.


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## Israel (Apr 13, 2018)

I am well aware that you brought JBP to the table. Or that I, at least, was made aware of him by you. I've watched dozens of clips since then, most often enjoying them, and do appreciate your introduction.

It's almost a bit like gossiping were I to pick him apart, but since I believe this was made (_that_ clip) with his assent to publication, I believe he's kind of assented also to criticism of a sort.
I am just at the beginning of it, but by :59 I see a faltering. "I can't answer that". With subsequent "It depends upon what you mean by Jesus"...

Never mind. There's already too much on the table less than two minutes in. But thanks.

This is what some guy was moved to write in the AM yesterday regarding the resurrection prior to seeing your post this morning.

https://israelx7wordpresscom.wordpress.com/


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## ambush80 (Apr 13, 2018)

Israel said:


> I am well aware that you brought JBP to the table. Or that I, at least, was made aware of him by you. I've watched dozens of clips since then, most often enjoying them, and do appreciate your introduction.
> 
> It's almost a bit like gossiping were I to pick him apart, but since I believe this was made (_that_ clip) with his assent to publication, I believe he's kind of assented also to criticism of a sort.
> I am just at the beginning of it, but by :59 I see a faltering. "I can't answer that". With subsequent "It depends upon what you mean by Jesus"...
> ...



It's a sign.


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## Israel (Apr 13, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It's a sign.


 Not really meant to be (at least by me). And there's a host of other things said by JBP ripe for discussion. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting...for everything hinges upon the resurrection...but as said...it's not merely an event, but a person.


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## ambush80 (Apr 13, 2018)

Israel said:


> Not really meant to be (at least by me). And there's a host of other things said by JBP ripe for discussion. Nevertheless, I do find it interesting...for everything hinges upon the resurrection...but as said...it's not merely an event, but a person.



Listening to Peterson shows me that a person fully committed to science and logic can make use of ancient mythology in a very meaningful way without having to believe in preposterous things.  But he fails miserably when he says that he doesn't know what a person is capable of if they manage to find the right mix of dying and living.  He doesn't seem to be implying that it would come from a technological advancement but from a spiritual exercise.  If he thinks that this might allow for a resurrection he might as well say that people might be able to fly or shoot laser beams of of their eyes as well.  

Rising from the dead, yes.  Laser beams from the eyes, no.  Why?


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## Israel (Apr 13, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Listening to Peterson shows me that a person fully committed to science and logic can make use of ancient mythology in a very meaningful way without having to believe in preposterous things.  But he fails miserably when he says that he doesn't know what a person is capable of if they manage to find the right mix of dying and living.  He doesn't seem to be implying that it would come from a technological advancement but from a spiritual exercise.  If he thinks that this might allow for a resurrection he might as well say that people might be able to fly or shoot laser beams of of their eyes as well.
> 
> Rising from the dead, yes.  Laser beams from the eyes, no.  Why?



He's struggling.


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## Israel (Apr 15, 2018)

I've watched the vid a few more times and still retain a sympathy for JBP's trying to wend his way through. He has the problem a lot of really _smart people_ have whose smartness has, to a great extent, informed their apparently successful status.
And let's face it, he has made a living being smart, and now from what I understand is seen (by some) as cashing in on that with his popularity. He's really sought after.

And that's fine. What others may say as to his cashing in means nothing to me per se, but I think both of us (as thus far we are the only two in discussion) are neither unaware, and perhaps, not willing to easily dismiss matters of conditioning and their consequences. It's hard to kill a goose laying golden eggs. 

Well, maybe..._only_ maybe. 

Wealth (or that form of success), popularity, being sought for opinion (that often goes hand and hand with the previous) _seem_ sweet consequences. How that may condition us toward and against certain other things, may not be easily discerned.

Who really _wants_ to be seen ignorant...and therefore _ignorable_?

How this may all factor in I am not willing to commit to any condemnation of his position expressed in his words. And, I don't think he is unaware of it completely. I am more inclined to believe there's a lot more going on "inside him" than he can adequately express in word. It looks like he makes that pretty plain.
He's struggling.

It's interesting though, isn't it? To watch conflict. I don't think you're a guy who much goes for MMA and cage matches, but we may all have our indulgence in it. Conflict. What will win? What will show itself superior, that guy with the longer reach and quick feet...that idea...that character in a movie? So many seeming arenas for its display. And _hook_ to _hook us_.

Everyone it seems "likes a good fight". Likewise, I don't think we much care for rigged ones, unfair ones (as they may appear to us)...where the heavyweight steps in to the ring with the feather weight (unless the feather weight may have a trick up his sleeve...in which case that becomes very, very sweet!).

If I could speak to JBP it would be this.
You have said truth is important, and to such an extent that you have highly recommended exercise in it. "Speak your truth", and let the chips fall where they may. Don't lie. Stop lying. Lying creates a dissonance in ones being. Let your truth out there (so to speak) for buffeting, for conflict, for contradiction...and BEAR it! Find out what happens when you speak (as best you can find words) in accord with what is true _to you_ of your being. Stop...lying. (I don't think I have miss-characterized his expression) One can even do this around an Easter dinner table.

Besides which, I heartily endorse it. Find out who you are...when you stop lying.

The final arena of this should, and will, always lead to ones self. We speak "into the world" to discover we are speaking to, and for, ourself. ("I try to explain what I think about that" he says...standing for six hours giving biblical lectures) And I am persuaded that in "trying to explain" he's working things out in himself.

For "to ourself" is where we discover the most precious of lies is told. Sure, we may try to grease the world's wheels with whatever characterization of our self seems to appear most beneficial...but when we discover how many wheels within wheels are within us, we discover something quite apart. That grease is not as easily admitted to or (perhaps) even seen at the first.

So, I would ask him. "Is some wheel being greased to say you are a christian, but not convinced the life_ in Jesus Christ _has overcome death (in the resurrection of his body) by His manifest presence to you...as being alive? How can one "be a christian" unconvinced Jesus Christ...is alive? (and that life being of such _a sort_ as to you is both wondrous...and inexplicable) This is not even beginning to touch what Jesus said...about Himself. And what He would accomplish...and how.

Smart men encounter a problem when confronting what their smartness cannot explain. They will either submit their smartness is not as great (And O! how that wheel loves to be greased!) as they tell themselves, nor represent themselves to the world.

We can all start small. So small as described by Jesus (and can be seen, in Jesus)

Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.

And finding that grace to shuck off all the lies we embrace to make ourselves "look big"...as we grow...we find ourselves...even smaller, still. Yes, God has a deep and abiding affection for his little ones. How small will a man allow to see this?

I tell you...it's worth every bit of losing what appears "large" to gain Who truly is. Yet willing...to be made...so very small. For our benefit.


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

Israel said:


> I've watched the vid a few more times and still retain a sympathy for JBP's trying to wend his way through. He has the problem a lot of really _smart people_ have whose smartness has, to a great extent, informed their apparently successful status.
> And let's face it, he has made a living being smart, and now from what I understand is seen (by some) as cashing in on that with his popularity. He's really sought after.
> 
> And that's fine. What others may say as to his cashing in means nothing to me per se, but I think both of us (as thus far we are the only two in discussion) are neither unaware, and perhaps, not willing to easily dismiss matters of conditioning and their consequences. It's hard to kill a goose laying golden eggs.
> ...



He's struggling and he should.  If one asserts the truth of a human resurrection from the dead one should struggle as mightily with that as the notion of a man flying or shooting laser beams from his eyes.  

How precious is the lie that someone is at the helm, that he cares for me, that he has super powers and that he will let me live forever?  How big would all that attention make someone feel?  Big enough and important enough to fly a plane into a building or vote for a particular candidate with the faith of one who has received revelation?  They're just humble servants after all.  

He _should_ struggle with a claim like "a rock fell up".  What kind of people wouldn't struggle with such a claim?  People of faith?  The more I hear the story about "hitting my knees and in humility I found the strength" the more I think that the strength comes from the new found willingness to accept the irrational.  "With God behind us, who can defeat us".


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

When Peterson breaks through his issue he will become just another preacher.  He's practicing now with his Biblical lectures.  The only thing he's lacking is the hubris to say "God told me this and now I'm telling you".  His lack of that particular hubris comes from his scientific training and it's demand for rationality.


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## Israel (Apr 15, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> He's struggling and he should.  If one asserts the truth of a human resurrection from the dead one should struggle as mightily with that as the notion of a man flying or shooting laser beams from his eyes.
> 
> How precious is the lie that someone is at the helm, that he cares for me, that he has super powers and that he will let me live forever?  How big would all that attention make someone feel.  Big enough and important enough to fly a plane into a building or vote for a particular candidate with the faith of one who has received revelation?  They're just humble servants after all.
> 
> He _should_ struggle with the claim like "a rock fell up".  What kind of people wouldn't struggle with such a claim?  People of faith?  The more I hear the story about "hitting my knees and in humility I found the strength" the more I think that the strength comes from the new found willingness to accept the irrational.  "With God behind us, who can defeat us".



It's convenient to make all of one. Pilots and voters and Jesus Christ. Some plainly do not see nor hear His singularity. Or...find it safer to themselves...to deny it.


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

Israel said:


> It's convenient to make all of one. Pilots and voters and Jesus Christ. Some plainly do not see nor hear His singularity. Or...find it safer to themselves...to deny it.



Obviously not all Muslims fly planes into buildings and not all Christians vote against stem cell research but allowing oneself to believe in resurrection opens the door to many other fantastic beliefs.  His singularity is the key that opens the door to Wonderland and He11.

Again, resurrection, yes. Laser beams from the eyes, no.  Why?


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

Why does the resurrection have to be literal but not all the other miracles?  Why are some easier to let go of then the others?  Is it the promise of everlasting life?  Would thinking Jesus' resurrection as symbolic be like seeing Xerxes bleed?


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## Israel (Apr 15, 2018)

God purposed man to know eternal life  and forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. Laser beams are not addressed. (That I know of)

But the Lord has made clear in so many ways...be careful in what regard you esteem one another; "see" one another...a jaundiced eye, full of malice...or in hope for one another. Wishing evil upon another, comes with its own stripes. And if, or when they are revealed as necessary...it is far better to submit to them...than lose one's soul.


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## Israel (Apr 15, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Why does the resurrection have to be literal but not all the other miracles?  Why are some easier to let go of then the others?  Is it the promise of everlasting life?  Would thinking Jesus' resurrection as symbolic be like seeing Xerxes bleed?



It doesn't "have to be" anything but what it is.
And it's crucial. In the deepest root meaning of that word.

And there is much of stumbling about it, for it is more than an event, more than a "fact".

"I am the resurrection and the life..."


Jesus _is _the resurrection out from the dead.


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

Israel said:


> God purposed man to know eternal life  and forgiveness of sin through Jesus Christ. Laser beams are not addressed. (That I know of)
> 
> But the Lord has made clear in so many ways...be careful in what regard you esteem one another; "see" one another...a jaundiced eye, full of malice...or in hope for one another. Wishing evil upon another, comes with its own stripes. And if, or when they are revealed as necessary...it is far better to submit to them...than lose one's soul.



But if the Bible said Jesus shot laser beams out of his eyes you would believe it.  Doesn't that make you cringe just a little bit?


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

Israel said:


> It doesn't "have to be" anything but what it is.
> And it's crucial. In the deepest root meaning of that word.
> 
> And there is much of stumbling about it, for it is more than an event, more than a "fact".
> ...



Depends on what the definition of "is" is?

I think that's where Peterson is.  What is the resurrection and the resurrected?  Real?  Myth? Archetype?  Only one of those propositions seems ridiculous.


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## Israel (Apr 15, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Depends on what the definition of "is" is?
> 
> I think that's where Peterson is.  What is the resurrection and the resurrected?  Real?  Myth? Archetype?  Only one of those propositions seems ridiculous.



Depends on what the definition of "real" is. If the real is what is true, then anything coming out from what is not of the real...is not true.

This is what he approaches (I perceive) when he says those things about truth and greater truths than mere facts.

But yes, I believe the resurrection of the body is sufficient to all these, real, true, and fact. And that Jesus Himself _is that_..."out from the dead". 

Of course some men may say "but how can you believe this?" To say it has much to do with an epiphany, a touch, an enlightenment, a revelation has (in the past, and at least to a certain moment) appeared as useless...to you. 

And from what he says, JBP may occupy (at least in this video) a curious place of trying to "factor" in the resurrection by factoring in what he already believes to be true. "The universe is a strange place". Berlinski also noted this. Stuff is often shown to be not at all as it seems. 

The reality of being, and consciousness...these things which are certainly perceived, even to the point of being grossly _taken for granted_...upon closer look suddenly become in some ways (though so easily assumed as foundational) quite mysterious. "How do I know...what I _think_ I know"?

What is the way in which the "out there" comes into me to be made real to me in such a way...as I believe it real?" The a priori here is also worth a closer look. "Why do I even believe I am real (in such a way) that the _real_ can be related to...within me?"
And yes...there is no barring the ready anecdote of the man, coming home early to what he believes is his loving wife, finding a lover escaping out the back window. 
Yes, that man may well question..."how do I know (and may I _ever know_?) what is true?"

I could easily use myself as an example of certain things, but I know how tedious this can become. But...I cannot exclude this...the immediate and in a moment reality that has come, and _by testimony_ come to many who are suddenly exposed to a light that both shows "I am not who I think I am" (and all my knowing is now forfeit) and therefore things are not at all the way I have previously...presumed. My reality detector is shown...defunct, by blinding light. In blinding light. And the light that shows my understandings completely corrupt...is the very light...that saves.

It can never "factor" for _that_. Men like to move from the know something...to the know...more.
What is needed is found here "Forgive them Father, they don't know..."

and the light in the darkness did shine, and the darkness did not perceive it. 

Young's Literal

yes, the resurrection is blinding to what needs blinding to STOP. And no man knows just how much blinding he needs to one way...to see another. But, Jesus is. The way.


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

Israel said:


> Depends on what the definition of "real" is. If the real is what is true, then anything coming out from what is not of the real...is not true.
> 
> This is what he approaches (I perceive) when he says those things about truth and greater truths than mere facts.
> 
> ...



So, yes to the possibility of laser beams from the eyes.

Enjoy that.


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## ambush80 (Apr 15, 2018)

How do you know that the voice in your head is really Jesus?  Did he identify himself as such? Why would you believe him?  How do you know it's not some malevolent force deceiving you?  How do you know it's not just some run of the mill ghost or maybe a forest nymph?  

I would like to ask Peterson if he believes in disembodied spirits.  I would ask him if he thinks these spirits can literally  affect matter.  I would ask him if he thinks that Jesus could fire laser beams out of his eyes if he wanted to.   

If I were to approach the situation objectively I would be compelled to ask "What is this spirit being, disembodied, invisible force's motivation?"  From my understanding, it apparently wants you to believe that Jesus is Lord and that the Bible is the inerrant recording of his instructions.  Is that a fair assessment?  Why would this force want you to believe in bizarre and unscientific things?  What good does it think will come from you believing such things.  

It's equally important to consider what bad does it think will come from believing such things?


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## Israel (Apr 16, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> So, yes to the possibility of laser beams from the eyes.
> 
> Enjoy that.



I did. 

But why be so parochial in thinking?

Why not beam tortoise toenails? 

Or picnic baskets full of fried chicken?
Nah, truth trumps lasers and toenails.

But settle for what you will.


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## ambush80 (Apr 16, 2018)

Israel said:


> I did.
> 
> But why be so parochial in thinking?
> 
> ...



I like yours too.  How about "Can someone who gets the right mix of living and dying vomit cotton candy?  I don't know what we're capable of."  Could Jesus do it if he wanted?  If it said that he did in the Bible would you believe it?


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## Israel (Apr 16, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I like yours too.  How about "Can someone who gets the right mix of living and dying vomit cotton candy?  I don't know what we're capable of."  Could Jesus do it if he wanted?  If it said that he did in the Bible would you believe it?




Since the word may have come forth C12 H22 O11, or it may just as easily have come forth in both language and tones inconceivable, (or even all to me of silence) I have no problem with cotton candy originating through His mouth. I don't think God is ever obligated to call stuff with the assignations we come up with. But, then He is also free to limit himself when, and if, it's to Him, of purpose.
So in that sense, not only do I not mind eating what comes forth from His mouth, I don't know of anything of more benefit to me. When cotton candy is included...that's OK, too.

But that's the thing. It seems that JBP is talking about some arcane spiritual exercise, Jesus never said it was _that_. We look at mechanisms. We mostly grasp in terms of mechanisms. JBP never once mentions..."hey...perhaps paying attention to God our Father will show us what we don't know". Now, I don't think He's wrong to be amazed to the extent of wanting to know "what's going on inside Jesus".."what's Jesus doing that could allow this?" In fact, I think that (if it is indeed any portion of JBP's wonder) is indeed a good thing.
But to think that Jesus was concerned with some exercise other than paying the strictest attention to His Father, and that it was always His Father doing the works...through Him...well...


But Jesus was quite plain..."of myself, I can do nothing." No working this stuff "up"...no effort of oneself, manages any of it.

It's not that folks weren't "wowed" and wanted to know the secret. "What must we do to do the works of God"...they asked. I can't help but think it was "how do we get our hands on this power".

Jesus told them. And told them the work. And the why of the work. And who is always at work.

To find that...to believe that...to see that...even if brought merely by a craven desire for power (in seeing your own powerlessness displayed by an exceeding power you have never witnessed) well, to pay attention is all there is. Pay attention to the Authority. Look for Him, listen for Him...believe _in Him_ (and _into_ Him)...through His word...because He is the One...sent from God. And find yourself in Jesus Christ...where God dwells with man. A man. _That _man.

You ask "how do I know its not a malevolent force I have listened to?" Well, to be truthful, because I have. I have fallen for many voices. And the children such wisdom beget...to me were not healthful, at all. I do not need to "figure out" when I am hungry, sick, or in desperation. When those things become painfully clear to me...(and they do still quite frequently) I don't have to "figure out"  there's something to me, amiss. As the body speaks...so does the Spirit...for when I am in need, I lack.

To say it used to be "I lack something" (and still does occasionally), all the more it is becoming "I am missing Him" somewhere...somewhere in this hunger, lack, pain, desperation. His appearing is the remedy, His manifestation the cure. But it is no trick...that summons Him, no working up...some form of a _deal._ I hunger to death...and He shows up. I don't know how to go to that place, nor is it even in my will...to want to. I don't even know I am headed there, as I go. I often think "I have enough for this next step" and move into that completely new moment of _all unknowing_ to find "No. No I don't have what I thought I had for this moment, I must find Him...now"

Who wants to be blessed with hunger? Who can see the blessing in being blind? Who wants to appear so small as needing always to be led?

But...when He appears (because He is the resurrection...and the life) it all makes far more perfect sense...than I can begin to express. 

It's never that He wasn't...or isn't there...but that the training of hunger might do its work...to find who is always there, here, everywhere...filling all...even in what appears the darkness of all my not knowing.

Do I "have to believe this", because of the Bible?

A man seeking to find the way home and out of the miasma of darkness is glad for every sign of help.


I hope to be planting corn tomorrow. In that hope lies another, the hope to see first the blade, then the ear, and then the full corn in the ear. And all I need do is to continue in hope. I have tasted its absence, and God forbid it.


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## ambush80 (Apr 16, 2018)

Israel said:


> Since the word may have come forth C12 H22 O11, or it may just as easily have come forth in both language and tones inconceivable, (or even all to me of silence) I have no problem with cotton candy originating through His mouth. I don't think God is ever obligated to call stuff with the assignations we come up with. But, then He is also free to limit himself when, and if, it's to Him, of purpose.
> So in that sense, not only do I not mind eating what comes forth from His mouth, I don't know of anything of more benefit to me. When cotton candy is included...that's OK, too.
> 
> But that's the thing. It seems that JBP is talking about some arcane spiritual exercise, Jesus never said it was _that_. We look at mechanisms. We mostly grasp in terms of mechanisms. JBP never once mentions..."hey...perhaps paying attention to God our Father will show us what we don't know". Now, I don't think He's wrong to be amazed to the extent of wanting to know "what's going on inside Jesus".."what's Jesus doing that could allow this?" In fact, I think that (if it is indeed any portion of JBP's wonder) is indeed a good thing.
> ...




Wow.  

When I asked you if Jesus can vomit cotton candy or if it were written in the Bible that he did would you believe it you went into a tailspin.  A simple yes or no would suffice and then you could bloviate all you wanted. The question itself seems ridiculous but the problem is that it's not anymore ridiculous than asking if Jesus rose from the dead. That's why Peterson has such trouble answering it.    

Now you're struggling, struggling to remain coherent.  People don't rise from the dead or vomit cotton candy or shoot laser beams out of their eyes or fly or walk on water.


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## ambush80 (Apr 16, 2018)

Isreal, 

You seem to have an easier time gaining purchase in the discussion upstairs about whether the streets in Heaven are made of actual gold.


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## Israel (Apr 17, 2018)

OK, that's cool.

Can Jesus vomit cotton candy?
It seems very important to you.
What Jesus indeed says He _does_ vomit is _at least_ as important to me. At least _I think_ so.

This is not "one for me, one for you"...God knows...you may even be more interested in the cotton candy question than I am in Jesus, altogether.
Or, perhaps in that, your motives are far more pure. Again, God knows.

Last night, when thinking about you, me, these discussions (even over_ years_ now) what might be their motives and purpose, and even to all the things that I can recall having been said (for I surely can't recall all and every word) I saw a distillation. But, it only came out of the dark.

Tell me if I see wrongly.

In how many appeals has it been made in some form of fashion "No, please tell me...it's important to me, I too do want to know if you have anything that can persuade me toward this god you say you know. I'm willing to be persuaded...let's carry on in discussion". 

or

"I am open to having this god reveal himself, he would know how to reach me"

Am I wrong? Even though that is surely not verbatim, does the phrasing of that not have at least...some familiarity?

The words imply an openness to correction, (or at least being corrected to a discovery) an openness to hearing.

And so conversations often continue.
Yet there are some who frankly say, as they have every right to...(and may actually be more _honest_ in their brokerage)

"Why don't you guys just stay upstairs in the other forum and leave us alone?" (more or less)

or, in another succinct form (and this guy is, at least, as honest as he can be, if _not truthful_)



> Sounds like a safe space to me. But I don't begrudge them that if that is what they need. And the apologists are welcome down here with the _more intelligent._


 (italics mine)


I say not truthful cause I know several "upstairs" who fall not one whit behind any elsewhere (even down here) by any metric of intelligence one cares to proffer.

But that is quite neither here nor there. My own intelligence has, of necessity, been insulted rightly in a light I cannot begin to fathom. So, for me, what once seemed so grand and bejeweled is now tarnished beyond repair...and the truth of a man, if it be _in a man_ (and not his _intellect_) is far more captivating. Really clever villains are a dime a dozen, but I had to see just how very common I am, myself, first...as that. Con men _always_ compete against each other for what they are only _allowed_ to see (because they are con men)...limited resource.

Nevertheless, discussions and conversations seem to continue. From apparent...yet perhaps not _truly_, opposite sides.


But...do we want honest brokerage? And it's perhaps more salutary to a soul to admit..."well, maybe I don't really, maybe I am more truly engaged solely for conflict's sake...that's the _fun_ of it"
(For young men are not infrequently full of pizz and vinegar, and gotta _do something_ with it)

Do I doubt you find me incoherent? Not at all. I am often, even to myself, so. Coherency, consistency, at least to oneself, seem to have great motive power. We want to smooth out the bumps... minimize glare (and the glaring) from our windshield. (Things seen in our eyes transmitted out by a deeper working in mind)

We all know (do we not?) what shifty eyes indicate. Do any of us think we can _hide them_?

I am on difficult ground here, so I do not know if this can be said without offense. And though I may say I don't desire to offend merely for offense's sake, I can easily be shown a liar. But I have found (at least for myself...) the greatest of _once_ offense to me has proved remarkably comforting. I _needed_ offending, and God knows how much I yet do. Somehow it is ordained that being offended, can turn into a door way.

But to be honest (even if I be found _not truthful_) when speaking to you, I am not sure if I ever hear much beyond (despite all pleadings otherwise)

"No really...tell me, I have _an interest_ in these things...
along with..._all the other stupid, absurd, preposterous things I am convinced you believe_"

Do you see how that _might_ cut short a day of fishing, or at least conversation (if only for a time) of two men..."sitting in a boat?" (and what would _that _do at the Easter dinner table, bro?)

Hey, is that my own pizz and vinegar talking?

You're no dope. But we may both be too clever for one another by half.

Yet I am convinced, despite this, an equity is prevailing, a justice and a just meeting "out from it" (Him) will show us both on most common of grounds. And my ground does not exceed yours...we are both simply talking dirt. Earth...mud...with a voice. And neither of us, try as we might so strenuously, can ever really show the "all" that is going on inside...because we do not even...know. (Nor even how much is _allowed_ to take place inside dirt)

Nor, how dirt can so be arranged...to talk.


Nevertheless...we do. 

Or...do we?

Dirt...probing dirt?

If we are _quite sure_ dirt is the full end of it, with nothing beyond...nothing _else_...at all, and one is fully convinced one knows all there is to possibly know about dirt (Look! Science explains dirt!)...and all _its truth_ is laid bare there, conclusive, ended, finished (and fully again, convinced of that) who _might be_ less than _truthful_ in their motive for probing? 

Nevertheless, I listen...for something more. And yes, I am being taught that, by the _something more_ than dirt, yet willing to appear in it. The quality of a dust, a _one dust_ I have seen, and heard, and heard from, is unlike any other. I can't deny it. (and _only by grace_...won't)
He is the _truest_ of scientists...in that _He alone_ truly_ knows all_ about the dirt. He even...tells on his own dirt..."of myself, I can do nothing"!
But hey, I'm no master. Just looking and listening from what may rise up out of...the dirt.

He...did. And does.

And having been granted such a sight...who wouldn't _need to know_ "how does _That_ do _that_" This is _surely worth_ all knowing.

Yes, the resurrection _is keystone_...no wonder men struggle _about it_.
From bricklayers and janitors to nurses and Hawkingsesque intellects. All are on quite common ground..._before_ it.

And in...quite common ground.
All...locked up...in dirt.


Before...


No laser beams...but this:

Then I saw heaven standing open, and there before me was a white horse. And its rider is called Faithful and True. With righteousness He judges and wages war. He has eyes like blazing fire...

I tell you...His eyes do not shift.

How can a man know this? Learn this? The same way I did. 
I found Him watching when I was not looking. And even presently...when I am not looking.

"Come and meet a man who told me all I ever did!"

Continue in your experiment...it's ordained...to you. There is no "opting out".

There is...no other stream.

Yes, it hurts to look into His eyes...till it doesn't.


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## Israel (Apr 17, 2018)

You know I do love surprises. And just beginning to learn how awkward I can be found in them, for they are de facto manifestation of my "not knowing"...even in the simplest of things.


I realize how easy it is for someone to come back with "hey ...don't you know men have _already_ come up with a way for dirt to talk...and _even think_?" (Silicon surely qualifies, no? with electronic propulsion)

I'm gonna say that like some of our conversations, in the short term it _might be _ entertaining. But in a longer view, a far less goodness than mere entertainment, will manifest. And if you and I, today, could see all those consequences, I'm pretty convinced we wouldn't like them. (Yeah, I'm not equipped to live in the future, only now. Like only ...right now.)

But, if such is allowed to persist...I am just as reasonably assured that to those who _creep up_ to these changes, and consequences, they will seem just as necessary, salubrious, and good...as breathing. They would marvel that anyone might find them...less than absolutely wonderful.

We might even wonder if there was anything that could be said in any form of communication that might get through from the "here" to the _that_...there.

To dismiss a man's way of living...is fundamentally to dismiss the man himself. Who hears past..."but, you are wrong!"? With appropriate battlements now being erected instead of honest discourse. What leaves us more vulnerable...than honesty? But what do we also find we cannot live well, without? My brothers need no explanation of this. They already have heard...and survived the rebuke of_ their way_ of life, though they thought they would die. And they continue to admit to chastenings. And rebuke. And the love they have discovered in them.

No, I am heartily convinced...dirt machines inventing other dirt machines, to _appear_ to teach other dirt machines to now_ think_..._even_ for them...is not good, _not good_ at all.

It is to me, _most_ good, that the Maker of both the original dirt, out of which he chose to make dirt machines always intended a something better (not of dirt)...to be revealed in His proper time. But for this He had to be wrapped in dirt that He might get a few words in edgewise. We simply don't, and can't admit to that from which we find nothing in relation...at all. So, even Neil Tyson concedes to being stardust...reaching out...to relate in some form to what he acknowledges. 

Yet, I can't help but wonder if presented with a mason jar of dust and told..."I might just as well listen to this jar...as to you"...if, or how, Neil might respond. Especially if confronted in conviction of no levity. No...cleverness. (The man _knowing_ he is no wiser than a bag of rocks might have that _particularly greater_ advantage in the seeing of peace) 

And he might just be the only one able to _say it_...without cleverness or levity.

One has to go back before the beginning of what is seen and known to know, as it were, the "good old days". Only One knows the Way. Cause He is it.

And then see..._why_ even dirt was made, and with what perfect care and attention. To each and every bit of dust unseen, but there...waiting to give up _its being_ for knowledge of _being_. Have you been to the dark side of the moon? What did you see? Is _being_ there...too? Are you trying to find it...or escape it? Do you _look into_ black holes? What do you think you may find...that is beyond the knowledge surrendered by the _merest_ speck of dust? Will you go smaller? Show your intent of diligence in search? Will you search out atoms? Will you try to break them to find out what's waiting to be found in them? Open them up, rip them apart by whatever means possible...to see what power is _really_, but unseen inside?


I know someone...who did that. Related well, and perfectly to dust...to those with the wisdom of a bag of rocks...because He beheld their Maker. And of course...submitted to their ultimate experiment...upon Himself. So that what (really Who) was inside...might be made freely known to men.


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## bullethead (Apr 17, 2018)

Israel said:


> OK, that's cool.
> 
> Can Jesus vomit cotton candy?
> It seems very important to you.
> ...




OMG


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## Israel (Apr 17, 2018)

bullethead said:


> OMG



There are no such things as small prayers. Just...prayer.

Not more than a few minutes ago my six year old granddaughter spoke this to my wife as she showered her...in what can only be considered as against her will.

"You are messing up my life".

I've said the same, Oh, so very often. Just not quite so clearly and perhaps, not so honestly.


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## ambush80 (Apr 17, 2018)

Israel said:


> There are no such things as small prayers. Just...prayer.
> 
> Not more than a few minutes ago my six year old granddaughter spoke this to my wife as she showered her...in what can only be considered as against her will.
> 
> ...



I'm anticipating an "I wish you were dead!" or a "Why did I have to be born?"


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## Israel (Apr 18, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I'm anticipating an "I wish you were dead!" or a "Why did I have to be born?"



Yeah...it's kinda funny ain't it...

Except I've said those very things...

I remember a time when I was so misguided as a believer...a "christian" (I am not at all sure what that word means to me anymore, let alone what others think of it in their usage) that finding so much of frustration and "losing"...demands at every turn...demanding response...I would hear this phrase, which when repeated (if ever repeated out loud) I would always accompany with a light hearted laughter.

It was this: "God...are you just trying to take advantage of my good nature?"
Yeah...as a christian I was learning the subtleties of complaint. Too afraid to say "why don't you just leave me alone...?" Too afraid to probably say...cause I was not ready to hear the answer.
Now, I thought in some way it was funny cause I knew apart from Him (at least _scripturally_) I had no "good nature" to be taken advantage of. Yeah, I knew to be a "good christian" I _had to_ believe the scriptures...nevertheless all I felt was incursion, constant (it seemed) disruption of what seemed "my plans"...and all I most often seemed aware of was a very harsh and demanding hand upon me. 

I used to muse again..."a few sheep and goats, turtle doves and bullocks would be so much easier". Why the big change needed?

It really wasn't much help (or so I thought) to consider at the time how necessary chastening was, as written again, _in the scripture_. After all, I was now a "christian", where's this peace that passes understanding? Where's this joy unspeakable and full of glory? 


Oh, outwardly I put on the best face, grinning like an idiot (it seemed _to me_ belonging to the club demanded it) and I was determined to shine with the best of them. But...inwardly...

My grim determination to be "as good as" that I couldn't see as anything less than right motive, was so much of _unbelief_ and therefore a rebellion of sorts, that I sincerely doubt that at that time, I could have borne having it revealed to me...plainly. It was very important to be a "good believer". So I was compelled to keep throwing myself against this unbudge-able rock.

Now, you might be inclined, as I once had been tempted, to say "see that's _all _that christianity does, it encourages a facade" And I still cannot deny that what may remain in any of a "clublike" mentality, a tribal mentality...(in me, or any other) is needing a liberty from it. I can feel now...quite plainly when a false smile begins to creep up in situations that seem to demand one to grease the wheels. I notice it at work more often than not where things are very plainly...expected to "get along".

And I don't think any of us much care to sense that feeling of being "an outsider". Who wants the tribe to leave us on the side of the road? A crazy? But, I think we can also admit...as much as we may have a desire to "belong"...there's another pull toward individuality in the mix, maybe equally as strong "I won't surrender my identity!" when I sense it being tugged at. How can these ever be reconciled? How can I ever "come to peace" within myself?

Nobody (perhaps) wants to be robotic, yet even the grimmest of the "lone wolves" are still looking for that place where they feel "at home". We might ask...or wonder...what friends did someone like a Ted Bundy have to make around himself (or a Hitler, or a ______fill in the blank) to keep going? What voices inside _soothed_ them? And allowed them to keep from running naked, filleting themselves and as bat-poop crazy down the street as we _may be_ convinced they were. How could they...to any...appear...reasonable? And manifestly do...what they have done. "I've got a great idea...let's go to war with the whole world...like right now, bro!"

"And look! while we're at it, we can abuse with impunity all the folks we don't like...or think are not...like us!"

I'd laugh...except I know the appeal...all too well.


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2018)

Israel said:


> There are no such things as small prayers. Just...prayer.
> 
> Not more than a few minutes ago my six year old granddaughter spoke this to my wife as she showered her...in what can only be considered as against her will.
> 
> ...



What did my comment to your meltdown above have to do with prayer?


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## Israel (Apr 18, 2018)

bullethead said:


> What did my comment to your meltdown above have to do with prayer?



O-M-G...maybe a true cry from a heart that can't believe what takes place...is even _allowed_ place...in the world. Your world.

Your consternation was not only palpable...but made illustrable.
:


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2018)

Israel said:


> O-M-G...maybe a true cry from a heart that can't believe what takes place...is even _allowed_ place...in the world. Your world.
> 
> Your consternation was not only palpable...but made illustrable.
> :



No need to make it into something it was not like usual.

Your levels of meltdown make Chernobyl envious.


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## Israel (Apr 18, 2018)

you see a God? Nah, nothing here but us...how bout those really smart bubbles...what are they saying...?
Hey! stop it, you got a little bit of you...on me...you lookin' for a fight?

(translation mine)


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## bullethead (Apr 18, 2018)

Israel said:


> you see a God? Nah, nothing here but us...how bout those really smart bubbles...what are they saying...?
> Hey! stop it, you got a little bit of you...on me...you lookin' for a fight?
> 
> (translation mine)


Finally some sense made.
Thank you


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## Israel (Apr 19, 2018)

yes...we are just that until...

And perhaps that is the matter. We are just dust, just dirt and water mixed...you and I, my dust, your dust, his dust, their dust...all dust. Yet there seems a contest of dusty will, there seems a will in the dust to be "better dust",_ knowing_ dust.

Prizes it seems, but also all of no more than dust, go to what can convince other dust ...it sees good, or better, or best. 

This convincing so often comes down at the end of a spear. Which dust has the most power? Which dust can bend things to its will? Who will gather the most dust to themselves? Who can gather, if it be possible...all? And control it, keep it?
Alexander the Great Dust? Did much in dust...but fell.
We can name as many others as we care to. 

Dust out to conquer other...dust. This fight can keep us busy. Allow us to think we are doing...things. Perhaps even tell us...we are making progress as dust. Even right up to the silencing of our dust. Then, all dust looks quite the same. All silent, all ready (no...there is no "readiness"...only an undeniable compelling, an irresistible reduction)  to give up their final and elemental secret they sought so to hide while they had _an allowance of motion_ among other dust.

I have only met two men in my entire life. One who strenuously tries (through all illegitimate motions) to be more than dust, and one who sees, and has pity upon dust in that struggle. By giving up, and being made willing, his own dust...to show. To display. On a stick. He never denied that struggle, or does...He simply won in it.

A prize dust could never care to win, nor could ever even imagine  is there to be won...unless shown.


One man says "eat my dust" to the manifest shame of losing to _my_ excelling.

One man stopped, and stops, for the hungry. 

I only know two.

And the seeing of the second man takes away all the shame of admitting to being the first. It just can't help itself.


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## bullethead (Apr 19, 2018)

Israel said:


> yes...we are just that until...
> 
> And perhaps that is the matter. We are just dust, just dirt and water mixed...you and I, my dust, your dust, his dust, their dust...all dust. Yet there seems a contest of dusty will, there seems a will in the dust to be "better dust",_ knowing_ dust.
> 
> ...



I speak softly and carry a swiffer. Dust is of no concern to me.


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## Israel (Apr 19, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I speak softly and carry a swiffer. Dust is of no concern to me.



Yes, I once thought I spoke softly, too. So soft I thought that I was the only one who could hear...me.

But it was made plain...all that takes place, even in the dust, inside the dust (where it may think none can hear) will come out. The Hearer of all knows what the dust speaks...even to itself.

For everything is open and laid bare before Him with whom _we have_ to do.

Neither of us has a choice in that.

(BTW, I was compelled to amend the post you quoted...update if it seems better to you to do so)


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## bullethead (Apr 19, 2018)

Israel said:


> Yes, I once thought I spoke softly, too. So soft I thought that I was the only one who could hear...me.
> 
> But it was made plain...all that takes place, even in the dust, inside the dust (where it may think none can hear) will come out. The Hearer of all knows what the dust speaks...even to itself.
> 
> ...



No need for a big swiffer. Fake dust isnt dust.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

I'm surprised he was not quicker on the draw with this. Most will give a quick answer. However, for me...... I don't think it matters if Jesus were raised from the dead and walked and talked before taking his place in heaven. That would simply just be proof to those who saw him. Whether you believe he is dead in the grave, no more or alive in the place we call heaven, this is what matters to me. Bodily resurrection on earth was never the goal of Christianity. I don't know.... he could have had a bodily resurrection on earth and revealed himself to a few, but what was the point? He did not stay, did not reveal himself to many, never intended to stay. "I'm going to a place you can not come". Nothing is accomplished with or without the bodily resurrection of Christ. Alive in the place we call heaven, life after death...... this is the central theme of Christianity afterlife. It very well could be that after the fact... that embellishments of Jesus being raised  evolved into the stories we have today. In any story, they always get embellished with time. Why not this as well. Jesus never alluded to proving he was alive. If he had planned on proving it.... then why bother to teach them that he would be raised again? He could have just shown them. However..... he may have shown himself in different ways, just exactly as the NT says. I can't dispute it's accuracy. Only point out that it should not be expected that he prove it by showing himself. Jesus was speaking, teaching through eyes of faith. Not knowing these things, only referring to himself by what he understood of the scriptures of the "one to come". He reasoned "by faith" that he would be raised from the dead. We always here the term "bodily resurrection". We don't require it, can't prove it, so why do we keep putting emphasis on it?


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## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I'm surprised he was not quicker on the draw with this. Most will give a quick answer. However, for me...... I don't think it matters if Jesus were raised from the dead and walked and talked before taking his place in heaven. That would simply just be proof to those who saw him. Whether you believe he is dead in the grave, no more or alive in the place we call heaven, this is what matters to me. Bodily resurrection on earth was never the goal of Christianity. I don't know.... he could have had a bodily resurrection on earth and revealed himself to a few, but what was the point? He did not stay, did not reveal himself to many, never intended to stay. "I'm going to a place you can not come". Nothing is accomplished with or without the bodily resurrection of Christ. Alive in the place we call heaven, life after death...... this is the central theme of Christianity afterlife. It very well could be that after the fact... that embellishments of Jesus being raised  evolved into the stories we have today. In any story, they always get embellished with time. Why not this as well. Jesus never alluded to proving he was alive. If he had planned on proving it.... then why bother to teach them that he would be raised again? He could have just shown them. However..... he may have shown himself in different ways, just exactly as the NT says. I can't dispute it's accuracy. Only point out that it should not be expected that he prove it by showing himself. Jesus was speaking, teaching through eyes of faith. Not knowing these things, only referring to himself by what he understood of the scriptures of the "one to come". He reasoned "by faith" that he would be raised from the dead. We always here the term "bodily resurrection". We don't require it, can't prove it, so why do we keep putting emphasis on it?



That's what I'm asking.  It seems even Jordan Peterson has a hard time letting go of the concept of a literal resurrection.  Of all the miracle claims, this seems like that last one that progressive Christians are willing to call metaphorical.  I wonder if it has something to do with the doubling down effect that has been mentioned before around here, where the most extreme of the miracle claims is the one most exalted as a way of demonstrating one's zealotry.  

What do you think?


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> That's what I'm asking.  It seems even Jordan Peterson has a hard time letting go of the concept of a literal resurrection.  Of all the miracle claims, this seems like that last one that progressive Christians are willing to call metaphorical.  I wonder if it has something to do with the doubling down effect that has been mentioned before around here, where the most extreme of the miracle claims is the one most exalted as a way of demonstrating one's zealotry.
> 
> What do you think?


They hold tightly to it because without it, Matthew, Luke and John have no credibility any longer  for stating that he did. Thus the book is no longer "the word of God" . It starts to break down fast if you can't trust these writings as truth. They will never call this metaphorical.... and if one did, he would then be on the chopping block..... because the context of the writings is anything but metaphorical. Slippery slope picking and choosing what to believe as I do


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

We have been indoctrinated to believe and not question.  We don’t even know what faith is, what believing really is.  So we use our dualistic minds and say, “It is all literally true or none of its true.”  
That mindset inhibits growth.  We spend all our time pretending and forcing ourselves to think we believe something because someone else told us to.  When do we hold ourselves accountable?  

Human nature hasn’t changed.  When God confronted Adam in the garden, what was his response?  “The woman that you put here, she gave me the fruit to eat.”  You see, it’s not Adams fault, it’s God’s fault for giving him the woman, it’s the woman’s fault for giving him the fruit but poor Adam, in his mind is just s victim.  
So the woman is questioned.  Her reply, “the snake gave me the fruit to eat”.  She’s not to blame either!  

Then our churches train us to think faith is blind and not to question which is complete rubbish.  As Paul said, “”Question everything, retain what is good, refrain from every kind of evil.”

When we do this we tread lightly, testing scripture in our lives.  As we find ourselves in difficult situations and we stick to the words of Christ, things work out.  Always!   Maybe not like you wanted but always better than you could imagine.  As you fail to obey the teachings, things get real bad in a hurry.  At this point we can blame others; “he’s just s jerk”, make excuses; “but I was tired”. Then we never grow. 

But if we hold ourselves accountable and obey the words of Christ, we become more confident in each encounter.  We develop REAL faith.  Knowing as we move forward, God is reliable.  


All those crazy stories in the Bible, if seen from the proper perspective are amazing tools that lead to true faith. We just need the guts to say, “sorry, I don’t believe that literally”. Saying this humbly and honestly, leaving our minds open for further inspiration then if it yours to understsnd, God will enlighten you.  

The Bible is really an amazing and beautiful thing if it was presented for what it actually is instead of fought over about what it is not.  Don’t be afraid to question.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> We have been indoctrinated to believe and not question.  We don’t even know what faith is, what believing really is.  So we use our dualistic minds and say, “It is all literally true or none of its true.”
> That mindset inhibits growth.  We spend all our time pretending and forcing ourselves to think we believe something because someone else told us to.  When do we hold ourselves accountable?
> 
> Human nature hasn’t changed.  When God confronted Adam in the garden, what was his response?  “The woman that you put here, she gave me the fruit to eat.”  You see, it’s not Adams fault, it’s God’s fault for giving him the woman, it’s the woman’s fault for giving him the fruit but poor Adam, in his mind is just s victim.
> ...


LOL, I was not aware someone else was on the same slope


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## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> We have been indoctrinated to believe and not question.  We don’t even know what faith is, what believing really is.  So we use our dualistic minds and say, “It is all literally true or none of its true.”
> That mindset inhibits growth.  We spend all our time pretending and forcing ourselves to think we believe something because someone else told us to.  When do we hold ourselves accountable?
> 
> Human nature hasn’t changed.  When God confronted Adam in the garden, what was his response?  “The woman that you put here, she gave me the fruit to eat.”  You see, it’s not Adams fault, it’s God’s fault for giving him the woman, it’s the woman’s fault for giving him the fruit but poor Adam, in his mind is just s victim.
> ...



Do you get guidance from any other faith traditions?  Why did you settle on the example of Jesus?



1gr8bldr said:


> LOL, I was not aware someone else was on the same slope



You in Da Souf, Boi.  Cain't be talkin' like dat roun' heah.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> We have been indoctrinated to believe and not question.  We don’t even know what faith is, what believing really is.  So we use our dualistic minds and say, “It is all literally true or none of its true.”
> That mindset inhibits growth.  We spend all our time pretending and forcing ourselves to think we believe something because someone else told us to.  When do we hold ourselves accountable?
> 
> Human nature hasn’t changed.  When God confronted Adam in the garden, what was his response?  “The woman that you put here, she gave me the fruit to eat.”  You see, it’s not Adams fault, it’s God’s fault for giving him the woman, it’s the woman’s fault for giving him the fruit but poor Adam, in his mind is just s victim.
> ...


Hey Day trip, I wonder.... I did not realize that anyone else here thought this way. Curious...... Not that I would debate anything, but I would like to know where you have arrived in your beliefs.... a simple version, if possible. What belief system most resembles yours? I hope Ambush will not mind a slight derail


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Do you get guidance from any other faith traditions?  Why did you settle on the example of Jesus?
> 
> Absolutely,  I put up a brief history in the other thread, you can catch it there.
> 
> ...


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey Day trip, I wonder.... I did not realize that anyone else here thought this way. Curious...... Not that I would debate anything, but I would like to know where you have arrived in your beliefs.... a simple version, if possible. What belief system most resembles yours?



I don’t know, I would hope Jesus!  Very happy to debate or discuss.  If it doesn’t hold water then I need to rethink something.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I don’t know, I would hope Jesus!  Very happy to debate or discuss.  If it doesn’t hold water then I need to rethink something.


 Mormon, JW, trinitarian, messianic Jew, Unitarian, etc..... this was what I was referring to


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Mormon, JW, trinitarian, messianic Jew, Unitarian, etc..... this was what I was referring to



Oh sorry,  someone asked a similar question in the “atheist dad going to heaven” thread so I put my history there if you dont mind looking so I don’t repeat.


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## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > Do you get guidance from any other faith traditions?  Why did you settle on the example of Jesus?
> ...


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Oh sorry,  someone asked a similar question in the “atheist dad going to heaven” thread so I put my history there if you dont mind looking so I don’t repeat.


I found it. Catholic. Teaching Catholic as well. So, I assume you believe all the core Catholic doctrines?


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2018)

Paul was very bold...not withdrawing one iota from the square on facing of this matter.
Do I therefore think Paul's boldness is imputed to me by his mention? Do I think "mouthing someone else's words" in some way adds some stature to myself? God knows...and He'll tell _if_ it's needed.

Nevertheless

But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace to me was not in vain. No, I worked harder than all of them—yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me. Whether, then, it was I or they, this is what we preach, and this is what you believed. But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is worthless, and so is your faith. In that case, we are also exposed as false witnesses about God. For we have testified about God that He raised Christ from the dead, but He did not raise Him if in fact the dead are not raised.

For if the dead are not raised, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished
If our hope in Christ is for this life alone, we are to be pitied more than all men. But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

Do you really imagine you could be the first...or only, to be so faced with making the resurrection a mere proposition for dispute? A thing _you can _reconcile? Get the order right...you are reconciled _by it_...not it, by you. 

Would you seek to appear reasonable, before whom you consider "reasonable" men? I don't know...but God does. Is your delight in thinking yourself reasonable? Is my delight in thinking myself zealous? God knows.

Or has the resurrection actually accomplished that to which it testifies, Jesus alive from the dead to be seen, and known...even as He stated of Himself "I am the resurrection...and the life"

Again if this just be a fool "mouthing" words he's been told, read...and never known in truth...God knows. And again...even as to and specifically to the resurrection...God knows, and He's telling everyone and anyone with a _need_ to know.

But even mouthing speculations...can lead a man to that place where conjecture bandied about for entertainment on a slippery slope ends, and the _need to know_...is then discovered.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 29, 2018)

Israel said:


> Paul was very bold...not withdrawing one iota from the square on facing of this matter.
> Do I therefore think Paul's boldness is imputed to me by his mention? Do I think "mouthing someone else's words" in some way adds some stature to myself? God knows...and He'll tell _if_ it's needed.
> 
> Nevertheless
> ...


Do you imply that Jesus had to be raised bodily, on earth,  that it was some sort of requirement that would void everything if it were not so?


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## Israel (Apr 29, 2018)

It is, of necessity.
_All _that He is for us...is of necessity.
But not His.

Think you that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Day trip said:
> 
> 
> > I understood what you wrote very clearly.  Thanks for sharing that.  Why do you think the spirit is something outside of matter and how would you know?
> ...


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I found it. Catholic. Teaching Catholic as well. So, I assume you believe all the core Catholic doctrines?



Um, no! , but not as subversively as it may seem.  I’ve read the Catechism several times.  The Catholic Church has a really good program but unfortunately it is sold for less than face value.  I am not certain that many of the teachers are not pushing a version of pagan idolatry instead of the true heart of Catholicism.   Sorry to have to say it.  listening to Catholic radio when I’m driving very often gets me fighting mad.  It fails to deny the notion that you can get to heaven.  You cannot get to heaven, you can only be there.  Right now.  So often people call in, the priest gives some rules and everyone is happy.  It’s like the vacuum salesman who pours dirt on your carpet then just so happens to have the solution to fix it.  Anyway, I’m ranting, but yes, the Catholic Church has a great program if taken at face value.


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## Day trip (Apr 29, 2018)

Israel said:


> Paul was very bold...not withdrawing one iota from the square on facing of this matter.
> Do I therefore think Paul's boldness is imputed to me by his mention? Do I think "mouthing someone else's words" in some way adds some stature to myself? God knows...and He'll tell _if_ it's needed.
> 
> Nevertheless
> ...




A man sets up his own discord in relationship to what he knows. If there be knowing...it is of God..."a man can receive nothing except it be given him from above" 

A man cannot even "know" that he knows anything except that be given him...from above. Jesus says a curious thing (well, curious except that Jesus says it, and therefore means it)

These are Your words from a different thread.  Are we culpable because we profess what we believe, given to us by God himself?


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## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2018)

Day trip said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > Well I’m not sure the “Spirit”, as I call it, is outside of matter.  It more like something else besides matter.  You can’t measure it, you can’t quantitate it but unless you are completely distracted, you cannot deny it either.  That’s what makes so many people angry about religion, “Just give it to me straight!”
> ...


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> A man sets up his own discord in relationship to what he knows. If there be knowing...it is of God..."a man can receive nothing except it be given him from above"
> 
> A man cannot even "know" that he knows anything except that be given him...from above. Jesus says a curious thing (well, curious except that Jesus says it, and therefore means it)
> 
> These are Your words from a different thread.  Are we culpable because we profess what we believe, given to us by God himself?





> Are we culpable because we profess what we believe, given to us by God himself?



You ask the wrong one. It's not mine to decide or judge anyone's guilt.

Men bring out from themselves all that is in their heart. And God is judge.

We are both already on the altar plainly displaying what we have eaten; and bring_ and in this sharing_, to be eaten. Our bowels are not hidden from His sight.

God alone is _the_ righteous judge _knowing all_ of what He has given. Even of what men may eat...and live. Of what men _must eat_...to live. In His sight, in and even _under_ His terrible eye.

Our God is a consuming fire.   

(BTW if by "us" and "we" in:



> Are we culpable because we profess what we believe, given to us by God himself?



you mean 1gr8bldr and yourself...I have not heard him lay claim to his sharing as from "by God himself")


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> You ask the wrong one. It's not mine to decide or judge anyone's guilt.
> 
> Men bring out from themselves all that is in their heart. And God is judge.
> 
> ...




I humbly apologize but your diction, its intended purpose, were I to purport that it had one of these, being challenging for myself to gain access to, perhaps lacks a certain clarity beneficial to the fundamental elements of communication, that in principle being to impart the reader with knowledge of your position on the matter.

St Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:19- however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.

Even though it may not be yours “to decide or judge anyone’s guilt”, you are indeed the one suggesting that their is guilt to be judged.  Thank you, but can you help, can you reach down and give me a hand or will you just criticize me for not being able to jump out of this hole?  Again, what would you have someone do?  Walk around pretending? Lying?  Hiding his shame over not being able to dissimulate as well as the other “believers”.  Why can I not admit my faults in my attempt to overcome them?


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Day trip said:
> 
> 
> > I don't know.  Who thinks that? Your description of being in the spirit sounds like meditation.  It sounds like something transcendent that can happen while playing music, working out, sleeping or being on psychedelics.  I'm not so sure any of the modern descriptions of that experience are worthwhile.  By modern, I mean as oral traditions.
> ...


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## hummerpoo (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> ...God gave his name to Moses as I AM.  This is a verb, an action...



Would you give consideration to the thought that I AM does not describe and action, but a state of being.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > Meditation is more like an old black and white TV, youre arranging the antennas and wrapping aluminum foil on them to get a signal.  It trains the mind to be silent, to hear the whisper (1 Kings 19:12).
> ...


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Day trip said:
> 
> 
> > I think that claiming a spirit like you describe is unfounded at this point in time.
> ...


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Would you give consideration to the thought that I AM does not describe and action, but a state of being.



Absolutely, what are your thought?


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > I can certainly see that.  I can’t accurately describe an intuition or a feel.  Like one born blind describing a sunset to another.  The feel of focused warmness leaving your face, recognizing the somewhat regular nightly calming of the winds as evening approaches, the birds settling in and the whippoorwill starting his call, the smell of the grass standing  out just a bit more than usual, you can tell something amazing is happening but any description will be majorly Lacking.
> ...


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Absolutely, what are your thought?


The use of "I Am" is in regards to who God is. This was the context when first used. It's like a blank check. The amount is whatever you write in. God was saying "I am" whom I will be. Like God "is". God being spirit "is" what he does. To much emphasis is put on this "I am". It was never intended to be because he tells us in the next verses what his name to be called is... Yahweh. This is his name to be remembered by for generation to generation.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I humbly apologize but your diction, its intended purpose, were I to purport that it had one of these, being challenging for myself to gain access to, perhaps lacks a certain clarity beneficial to the fundamental elements of communication, that in principle being to impart the reader with knowledge of your position on the matter.
> 
> St Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:19- however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
> 
> Even though it may not be yours “to decide or judge anyone’s guilt”, you are indeed the one suggesting that their is guilt to be judged.  Thank you, but can you help, can you reach down and give me a hand or will you just criticize me for not being able to jump out of this hole?  Again, what would you have someone do?  Walk around pretending? Lying?  Hiding his shame over not being able to dissimulate as well as the other “believers”.  Why can I not admit my faults in my attempt to overcome them?






> Thank you, but can you help, can you reach down and give me a hand or will you just criticize me for not being able to jump out of this hole?



If you do know you are in a hole...the only one to help is the One raised out from it. But unless you believe Him, how could you possibly believe there is _any_ to help?  

Do you say you believe in God? Believe also in Him.

He _is_ the resurrection. And _the_ life.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I humbly apologize but your diction, its intended purpose, were I to purport that it had one of these, being challenging for myself to gain access to, perhaps lacks a certain clarity beneficial to the fundamental elements of communication, that in principle being to impart the reader with knowledge of your position on the matter.
> 
> St Paul said in 1 Corinthians 14:19- however, in the church I desire to speak five words with my mind so that I may instruct others also, rather than ten thousand words in a tongue.
> 
> Even though it may not be yours “to decide or judge anyone’s guilt”, you are indeed the one suggesting that their is guilt to be judged.  Thank you, but can you help, can you reach down and give me a hand or will you just criticize me for not being able to jump out of this hole?  Again, what would you have someone do?  Walk around pretending? Lying?  Hiding his shame over not being able to dissimulate as well as the other “believers”.  Why can I not admit my faults in my attempt to overcome them?



Isreal's goal doesn't seem to me to be discussion.  It's more like art or something.  The intent seems to be a product; a piece or event.  You'll see.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Absolutely, what are your thought?



I would have no idea how to condense it, since it really is quite foundational to most, if not all, that I believe.  Not to mention that I am far to lazy to try to frame and explain it thoroughly within the limits of this format.  However, there is a way out for both of us.  The following are the first 3 links that came up when I googled "'I AM', bible".  I may not agree with everything said, but if you read them, I think you will see where I am coming from, at least generally, when I said "state of Being".


https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/i-am-who-i-am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_am_(biblical_term)

http://biblehub.com/exodus/3-14.htm
(you don't want to miss the "Exodus 3:14 Commentaries" link after the Matthew Henry Commentary).


Just a teaser from Gill's Commentary: "This signifies the real being of God, his self-existence, and that he is the Being of beings; as also it denotes his eternity and immutability, and his constancy and faithfulness in fulfilling his promises, for it includes all time, past, present, and to come; and the sense is, not only I am what I am at present, but I am what I have been, and I am what I shall be, and shall be what I am.


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## 1gr8bldr (Apr 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> The use of "I Am" is in regards to who God is. This was the context when first used. It's like a blank check. The amount is whatever you write in. God was saying "I am" whom I will be. Like God "is". God being spirit "is" what he does. To much emphasis is put on this "I am". It was never intended to be because he tells us in the next verses what his name to be called is... Yahweh. This is his name to be remembered by for generation to generation.


To add to this... remember at this time they knew nothing of God. He told Moses, if they ask who sent him, to respond "I am" has sent me to you. It carried zero preconceived ideas, zero picture in their mind, zero in terms of definition. So keep in mind, that all that is said about this from the future, is working in hindsight. All the in depth, on and on commentaries, are shaping this based on future knowledge. There is a difference. "tell them I am has sent me to you" It is meant to be a blank check, that will be filled out, if you accept the check. Again, it's descriptive, not his name, Yahewh, is the name that he specifically said is his name to be remembered by


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> To add to this... remember at this time they knew nothing of God. He told Moses, if they ask who sent him, to respond "I am" has sent me to you. It carried zero preconceived ideas, zero picture in their mind, zero in terms of definition. So keep in mind, that all that is said about this from the future, is working in hindsight. All the in depth, on and on commentaries, are shaping this based on future knowledge. There is a difference. "tell them I am has sent me to you" It is meant to be a blank check, that will be filled out, if you accept the check. Again, it's descriptive, not his name, Yahewh, is the name that he specifically said is his name to be remembered by




I’ve heard it said that the sound of inhaling and exhaling is 
Yahweh.  So at every breath, we recite the name of the Lord.  Several meditation chants are based around this concept.  Just FYI, get that stuck in your mind.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Isreal's goal doesn't seem to me be discussion.  It's more like art or something.  The intent seems to be a product; a piece or event.  You'll see.



You're absolutely right.


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## Day trip (Apr 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> You're absolutely right.



So are you interested in growing, learning or helping others see?  You are obviously a mystic but I again am sorry to say that I often can’t understand you.  Regardless, I do enjoy you.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> So are you interested in growing, learning or helping others see?  You are obviously a mystic but I again am sorry to say that I often can’t understand you.  Regardless, I do enjoy you.



I like his art sometimes, too.  And mystic is exactly the right word.  I've been trying to come up with a word for what Isreal does for years.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 30, 2018)

Day trip said:


> So are you interested in growing, learning or helping others see?  You are obviously a mystic but I again am sorry to say that I often can’t understand you.  Regardless, I do enjoy you.


First -
Israel I know you will read this so I feel comfortable that I am not "talking behind your back"......
Israel often loses me and I struggle to get the point sometimes however I also have been able to pick out some individual "gems" that are very thought provoking to me even if the overall point eludes me.
I appreciate his participation here even though I sometimes get a headache trying to figure out what the heck he's talking about


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## Israel (May 1, 2018)

But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also...


For there are some eunuchs, who were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, who were made eunuchs of men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

I have known the many pleasures of intercourse, but the _responsibility_ they engender is _made plain to me_ I cannot bear.

Being an aging and impotent man is far more preferable to receive, and _safe_...(though I can blame non for despising it) than bearing responsibility for misbegotten children.

But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

I am completely impotent before this judgment.

You all help me.
See.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

Israel said:


> But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
> But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also...
> 
> 
> ...


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

Israel said:


> But Er, Judah's firstborn, was evil in the sight of the LORD, so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, "Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother." Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother.
> But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also...
> 
> 
> ...



Is there a lesson or an observation of humanity that you're trying to convey?


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## bullethead (May 1, 2018)

It's all theatrics designed to expound on thoughts that have nothing to do with whatever the topic is.


"I
He
Him
Theatrical Meltdown
Biblical quotes
I am not worthy"

That is pretty much the routine reply


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

bullethead said:


> It's all theatrics designed to expound on thoughts that have nothing to do with whatever the topic is.
> 
> 
> "I
> ...




Aww.  Don't be so hard.  This place wouldn't be as interesting without his art and mysticism.  Sometimes there's a glimmer of pertinence in Isreal's responses.  Now that I've reformed my notions of what he's doing, in part because of Day Trip's recognition of Isreal as a mystic, I can enjoy his posts for what they are.


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## WaltL1 (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Aww.  Don't be so hard.  This place wouldn't be as interesting without his art and mysticism.  Sometimes there's a glimmer of pertinence in Isreal's responses.  Now that I've reformed my notions of what he's doing, in part because of Day Trip's recognition of Isreal as a mystic, I can enjoy his posts for what they are.


I had to look up mystic and the way it was used here and holy carp that certainly seems accurate. Its also not negative in any way.


> a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect.


Israel whats your thoughts? Accurate? Kinda? Not really?


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## Day trip (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I had to look up mystic and the way it was used here and holy carp that certainly seems accurate. Its also not negative in any way.
> 
> Israel whats your thoughts? Accurate? Kinda? Not really?



I’ll bet $100 he doesn’t say just “yes” or “no”!


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I’ll bet $100 he doesn’t say just “yes” or “no”!



Good bet.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I had to look up mystic and the way it was used here and holy carp that certainly seems accurate. Its also not negative in any way.
> 
> Israel whats your thoughts? Accurate? Kinda? Not really?



_
"a person who seeks by contemplation and self-surrender to obtain unity with or absorption into the Deity or the absolute, or who believes in the spiritual apprehension of truths that are beyond the intellect." _

This part most certainly applies.  It doesn't mean un-intellectual exactly.  I think it means that they believe that they are using some other supernatural faculty to access ideas.


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## WaltL1 (May 1, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I’ll bet $100 he doesn’t say just “yes” or “no”!


In this case I would be disappointed if he did 
And kudos to you. Israel has participated here with us for years and the best I have come up with to describe his "style" was philosophical. 
But I think you nailed it right quick!


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> In this case I would be disappointed if he did
> And kudos to you. Israel has participated here with us for years and the best I have come up with to describe his "style" was philosophical.
> But I think you nailed it right quick!



I've suggested that his style is some sort of parable, like the example provided by the Bible.  He even said so in another thread.  The obfuscation is regarded as a method of separating the wheat from the chaff; those with the gift of understanding from those who take words at their face value.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

As an artist myself, I understand the value of being suggestive, vague, and enigmatic.  Some ideas are just very hard to express.  Sometimes they are better expressed as a hum or a chime or a paint splotch.  They won't be understood by most people the way that you intended but that's OK, too.  What people will sometimes see is the struggle to communicate something.  Sometimes they don't.  I found that if I really try hard to express something very personal, artistically, it sometimes resonates in a universal way.  Having some mastery of the medium helps allot.

Sometimes things are better expressed in a conventional way.

I like the feedback at the beginning of this song.  It does "that thing" for me.


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## bullethead (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Aww.  Don't be so hard.  This place wouldn't be as interesting without his art and mysticism.  Sometimes there's a glimmer of pertinence in Isreal's responses.  Now that I've reformed my notions of what he's doing, in part because of Day Trip's recognition of Isreal as a mystic, I can enjoy his posts for what they are.



Some things that he says are extremely interesting and hits home for me. When that happens I'd love to carry on the convo further but there is so much fluff in between the interesting (read: on topic and to the point) stuff quickly gets lost. 
For me what I describe as the theatrical meltdowns, that always start with him asking himself his own question worded as if someone else asked it, are devised to be segways into off topic rants just to say what enters his mind at the time. Then he uses scripture to try to reinforce his thoughts(meanwhile his thoughts are based to reinforce scripture) as examples to validate the question he purposely asked himself to begin with. 

When someone hits reply to a specific answer and during the course of their reply  says "now you may ask....", as a way to steer a conversation away from the topic and towards whatever the person just has to get off their chest(which ends up not having anything to do with the quoted reply).....It comes off as dishonest to me. When it happens continually, it's on purpose.


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## WaltL1 (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I've suggested that his style is some sort of parable, like the example provided by the Bible.  He even said so in another thread.  The obfuscation is regarded as a method of separating the wheat from the chaff; those with the gift of understanding from those who take words at their face value.


Well that explains it.
That's one gift I never received


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## bullethead (May 1, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I've suggested that his style is some sort of parable, like the example provided by the Bible.  He even said so in another thread.  The obfuscation is regarded as a method of separating the wheat from the chaff; those with the gift of understanding from those who take words at their face value.



Yes, you must be one of the elect yet unworthy that was given the gift of understanding.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Some things that he says are extremely interesting and hits home for me. When that happens I'd love to carry on the convo further but there is so much fluff in between the interesting (read: on topic and to the point) stuff quickly gets lost.
> For me what I describe as the theatrical meltdowns, that always start with him asking himself his own question worded as if someone else asked it, are devised to be segways into off topic rants just to say what enters his mind at the time. Then he uses scripture to try to reinforce his thoughts(meanwhile his thoughts are based to reinforce scripture) as examples to validate the question he purposely asked himself to begin with.
> 
> When someone hits reply to a specific answer and during the course of their reply  says "now you may ask....", as a way to steer a conversation away from the topic and towards whatever the person just has to get off their chest(which ends up not having anything to do with the quoted reply).....It comes off as dishonest to me. When it happens continually, it's on purpose.



Fair enough.  Now that you understand the purpose you can appreciate it an appropriate context.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

Even though I'm a mod in here I never read his posts anymore. It takes me too long to figure out what he's talking about and I figure if he broke a rule no one would know anyway because half the participants aren't reading his posts and the other half wouldn't rat him out.  


That said, I appreciate his heart and contribution.


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## Israel (May 14, 2018)

Day trip said:


> I’ll bet $100 he doesn’t say just “yes” or “no”!


 

You win.


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## welderguy (May 14, 2018)

Ahh, the foolishness of preaching...
Is it foolishness to everyone, all the time?  Hardly.


----------

