# Is all of this Catholic vs. Protestant stuff getting us anywhere?



## SBG (Jan 16, 2007)

This has been debated for centuries and we will not come up with the answers here.

For the sake of everyone, can we agree to disagree and move on?


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## Jim Thompson (Jan 16, 2007)

would be a nice thing before we have to start moving people on

not a chance in the world that anyone here is going to change each others mind, but the constant whining and bickering will sureley cause many many folks to NOT open this forum


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## HuntinTom (Jan 16, 2007)

SBG said:


> This has been debated for centuries and we will not come up with the answers here.
> 
> For the sake of everyone, can we agree to disagree and move on?



Good post SBG -- I learned a looong time ago I could never debate with the already convinced, and that's what a lot of these type threads seem to be.   Let's agree to remain civil and stop all the "For me to be right, you must be wrong" foolishness that, if left unchecked, will turn this forum into a junior high playground full of _"Did too - Did not..."_ threads.  If you haven't convinced someone in about a hundred threads, I doubt very seriously you are going to do anything but spit in the wind....  And the problem with that is -- The many, many who really want to get something out of this forum get caught in the spittle-crossfire    So - We're done with the on and on and on and on and on and on threads bantering back and forth saying the same things over and over and over and over and over and over again -- Once we begin to circle for about the third time on the same tired subject, we're landing that baby and locking em' down...


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## elfiii (Jan 16, 2007)

Lock 'em down Reverend!


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## DYI hunting (Jan 16, 2007)

Jim Thompson said:


> not a chance in the world that anyone here is going to change each others mind, but the constant whining and bickering will sureley cause many many folks to NOT open this forum



Worse yet, move on from considering a specific religion.  How many times has a lost soul turned away after seeing such things?


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## justme (Jan 16, 2007)

I am past burned out on it....pushed far enought to say something...usually takes a lot to get me to that point....


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## PWalls (Jan 16, 2007)

Yep.


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## Bones (Jan 16, 2007)

To those who think that their denomination is the only one with people going to heaven I have news for them.  There are going to be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Church of God and even those who do not belong to any denomination in heaven.  It is not the denomination that gets you to heaven it is what have you done with Jesus Christ.  Have you  asked Jesus Christ into your heart and accepted him as your savior?  That is the question that needs to be answered.

Bones


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## ramsey (Jan 16, 2007)

Bones said:


> To those who think that their denomination is the only one with people going to heaven I have news for them.  There are going to be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Church of God and even those who do not belong to any denomination in heaven.  It is not the denomination that gets you to heaven it is what have you done with Jesus Christ.  Have you  asked Jesus Christ into your heart and accepted him as your savior?  That is the question that needs to be answered.
> 
> Bones



Bones, did not see any Presbyterians mentioned. Just because we guard the gate does not mean were not in.


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## brian chambers (Jan 16, 2007)

Wow;
 What a profound read, I love you too, my brother. 
brian



pfharris1965 said:


> From my perspective...daily...
> 
> Later man...
> 
> ...


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## Dawg In the Swamp (Jan 16, 2007)

I'm a Protestant and worship Christ in my way. Catholics worship in there way. I'm willing to share my view's with any who practice Catholicism. 

The Lord in the end will tell us who was right. Saving myself from condemning another believer (in Christ) is one less thing I will have to account for on my judgement day.

The most important thing is ones faith in Christ.


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## HuntinTom (Jan 16, 2007)

pfharris1965 said:


> From what I have observed only in this one very small forum on the WWW, I can say that what I have seen makes me think that religion in general is somewhat of a joke...at least to most folks...



A fella named Jesus wasn't too keen on "religion" either - So, you're in good company


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## Bones (Jan 17, 2007)

What I am saying is belonging to any denomination does not get you to heaven.  It is what have you personally done with Jesus Christ.  Whosoever will may come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Bones


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## Jeffriesw (Jan 30, 2009)

SBG said:


> This has been debated for centuries and we will not come up with the answers here.
> 
> Nope
> 
> ...



One would hope so





Bones said:


> To those who think that their denomination is the only one with people going to heaven I have news for them.  There are going to be Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Church of God and even those who do not belong to any denomination in heaven.  It is not the denomination that gets you to heaven it is what have you done with Jesus Christ.  Have you  asked Jesus Christ into your heart and accepted him as your savior?  That is the question that needs to be answered.
> 
> Bones





Your denominational tag or religion will either fall off on the way up or burn off on the way down



You Decide


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## celticfisherman (Jan 30, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> One would hope so
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I almost died laughing when you sent me that earlier today man...

I would say if we can't disagree without being personal in our attacks and mean spirited in our responses then we shouldn't enter the discussions. I know I just deleted one I can't be impersonal about.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 30, 2009)

I'm sorry, but any forum where they provide Icons like this or this or this or this or this, can not be serious in maintaining peace and unity........


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## Big7 (Jan 31, 2009)

*We don't need no stinking lock-down.*



pigpen1 said:


> I'm sorry, but any forum where they provide Icons like this or this or this or this or this, can not be serious in maintaining peace and unity........



pigpen1
You are actually making some sense now! 

EVERYBODY - We are a little tighter community than most
un-moderated forums, where you can say anything you 
want and with any language and calling each other
!@#$%^&*()_+'S.

Plus most of us are from or are sportsman of
Georgia!

We don't need no stinking lock-down.


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## Banjo (Jan 31, 2009)

Big7 said:


> pigpen1
> You are actually making some sense now!
> 
> EVERYBODY - We are a little tighter community than most
> ...



I am with you, Big7....

I have never been personally affronted...and I like the debate.


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## earl (Jan 31, 2009)

Yes it's getting us somewhere. The manner in which one handles their self in the p/c debate tells nonbelievers a lot about that person AND their religion. IMO


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## Free Willie (Jan 31, 2009)

I'm all for a civil debate but when you get folks who say garbage like, "I hate Catholic Church because..." it is then an attack on my faith. That is a nogo at this station. I will defend my faith from people who do not understand it but seek to destroy it. I would expect no less if I were to say the same about your [fill in your denomination].


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## gtparts (Jan 31, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> I'm all for a civil debate but when you get folks who say garbage like, "I hate Catholic Church because..." it is then an attack on my faith. That is a nogo at this station. I will defend my faith from people who do not understand it but seek to destroy it. I would expect no less if I were to say the same about your [fill in your denomination].



I admit that it is not very tactful or productive, but most of the rhetoric is a statement of personal opinion and the reasoning behind that opinion. If I were a Catholic, I would simply think, "He doesn't like the Catholic Church and he has reasons based on his understanding or (usually) misunderstanding. Do his points have some validity from his protestant, Jewish, whatever POV? How can I help his misunderstanding?

And the shoe fits any foot that is committed to a particular faith that has not always been transparent or consistent in its doctrine or history. As one who has observed how some of these things play out here, we tend to make reaction strikes, and while that may be your natural instinct, it just causes descension. If Round #2 starts, how about just exiting the "ring"? Leave the baiting for the deer and fish.


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## JuliaH (Jan 31, 2009)

> *Is all of this Catholic vs. Protestant stuff getting us anywhere?*


 
Nope


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## Free Willie (Jan 31, 2009)

I just feel the need to help those who have been led astray by the anti-Christ, Martin Luther, and his minions. I just cannot have it on my soul that I let these the fine people of GON burn in he11 because they do not know the true Way to heaven. It is my duty as a Christian to lead these unbelievers to Christ and the True Church. I spent some time as a Protestant and if I had died before I came back to the RCC I would have gone to he11. I'm am just a simple servant ofthe Lord trying to do my part to witness the Truth to the unsaved protestants.


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## Free Willie (Jan 31, 2009)

Now that you've read the above post, how do you feel?




Yeah...I thought so.


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## Israel (Jan 31, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> Now that you've read the above post, how do you feel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I feel like I should tell you what I told a patient yesterday.  There are two people you should always run from.
Someone coming at you with a pistol.
And someone who tells you they are doing something for you "only because they love you".


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## Free Willie (Jan 31, 2009)

LOL...Is that why my kids run from me when I get the belt after them?


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## jawja_peach (Jan 31, 2009)

*Ah, Com' on Y'all!!*



Free Willie said:


> I'm all for a civil debate but when you get folks who say garbage like, "I hate Catholic Church because..." it is then an attack on my faith. That is a nogo at this station. I will defend my faith from people who do not understand it but seek to destroy it. I would expect no less if I were to say the same about your [fill in your denomination].



HI! I've been sitting back reading here and there, as it seems that the things I've said haven't made an impact anywhere, so....I've not posted until now. I do see where you are coming from. But do understand that I am a Christian. I attend a Baptist Church and I love God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. In my faith we believe that we are to witness to others. Tell them about Jesus and how He died to save that which was lost. But at some point, when others aren't listening or acknowledging your testimony (like the point I've reached on here) it's time to kick the dust off your boots and move on, as you've done all you can. But remember the seeds in which we plant, and leave the rest up to God. But, some get to the point that they feel that they haven't gotten their opinion or belief across for others to see/understand. And why?? Because those that are on here 'yelling' about 'being attacked' are just as guilty as the others. It takes "two to tango" as the saying goes. So don't give me this lil they're picking on us junk...lol...We are all guilty and need to step up and remember that we all have our own beliefs. Our own way of doing things, and reading it on here, you have no tone of voice, no facial expressions, and etc. This causes people to take things wrong and then it's on. I agree with Pigpen that if a forum doesn't expect for things to get some what heated, they should have the smiles up that they have. We are all here for the same thing which is to meet others that share our faith, tell others our testimony, and learn about other denoms. 

Now my belief is that if you are not Saved nor have faith, you will die and go to He!! I believe the BIBLE. The KJV Bible and all that is in those books. I believe its the Holy Word of God. Now, Catholics don't agree with me on this. I also believe that the Spirit of God will flow from breast to breast if we allow it and are right with God. (this is Bible) I believe that if we do such the Holy Spirit will ascend and our church meeting will be led by it and we will do what It tells us to do in our heart. We have no set routine. Not so with others. And there is one thing about Catholic worship that I don't understand. My niece is Catholic but doesn't go to Mass because she said that the sermons were the same every time she goes. That mass is the same one Sunday/Sat. as it was the year before that and that of the year ahead. How is this led of the spirit? I would like to know, if you can tell me. It's a question no one in my family, who are Catholic, can answer. 

There are tons of things out there we do not know. And maybe if we work together we can help each other learn. But see, again, my Baptist Faith leads me and instructs me to witness and that unless we are a Saved child of God, we won't see the kingdom of God. John 3:3. So all of y'all that aren't 'Saved' nor believe in this, we believe are going to He!!. And we don't want anyone to go to He!!. As some one spoke of religion, on here above, there are people- good moral people- who have 'religion' and they will bust He!! wide open. It's not 'RELIGION' it's 'SALVATION'!! Salvation my friends is the only thing that will keep ALL DENOMS OUT OF HE!! ..!!(my belief) 

So know friends, what I've said above will be the end of such for this Peach...With respect to all...Have a great week-end.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 31, 2009)

There is a great divide between catholics and other Christians.  
Catholics need to remember from where other Christians come from.
The inspired word of God is our only justification for Christian living and worship.  When you begin talking about the Pope, all of his officers, Peter as the first Pope, and the catholic church as the first and only church,,,,, we stop listening to you.  You consider your church history to be very important.  Most other Christians consider it to be outside most doctrines of Christ's church.
If you want things to remain civil, stick to the gospel.  Stay away from your church traditions and your church writings.


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## pigpen1 (Jan 31, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> There is a great divide between catholics and other Christians.
> Catholics need to remember from where other Christians come from.
> The inspired word of God is our only justification for Christian living and worship.  When you begin talking about the Pope, all of his officers, Peter as the first Pope, and the catholic church as the first and only church,,,,, we stop listening to you.  You consider your church history to be very important.  Most other Christians consider it to be outside most doctrines of Christ's church.
> If you want things to remain civil, stick to the gospel.  Stay away from your church traditions and your church writings.



 AMEN!!!! Ronnie mark it down, I agree with you on this subject.....


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## Big7 (Jan 31, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> Now that you've read the above post, how do you feel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gotta little "sting" to it huh?
Good analogy willie.


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## Ronnie T (Jan 31, 2009)

One of the things that I'm most thankful for in my life was my allowing God's word to reach me.  I accepted Jesus as a very young teenager in a church made up of very devout Christians.  But these devout Christians taught me some things that I later learned were not true.  I learned the truth by becoming honest with God's word.  
I've been told I had to work myself to heaven. That was a lie.
I've been told God's grace would save me no matter what. God's word proves that to be a lie.
I was taught that the Bible specifically teaches that instrumental music is sinful if used during worship services.  That's not true.

Today, 
I don't care about my church history, I care about God's word.
I don't care what Luther said, I care what Jesus said.
I don't care what Calvin taught, Calvin means nothing to me, I care about what Jesus taught.

Church creeds are worth the paper they're written on.
God's word.  The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only safe path for me or anyone else.  Anything else can be wrong.


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## Big7 (Jan 31, 2009)

*Liturgical Calendar*



jawja_peach said:


> And there is one thing about Catholic worship that I don't understand. My niece is Catholic but doesn't go to Mass because she said that the sermons were the same every time she goes. That mass is the same one Sunday/Sat. as it was the year before that and that of the year ahead. How is this led of the spirit? I would like to know, if you can tell me. It's a question no one in my family, who are Catholic, can answer.



OK - Here is your answer from a Catholic.

To make a real long story short it is called the
Liturgical Calendar. It means that Catholics get the whole Bible, 
including the seven books left out of Protestant bibles in roughly three years.

Additionally, it is the same for all Catholics - world-wide
everyday, so we are all on the same page.

The "sermons were the same every time she goes"
is incorrect. The Sacraments are the same, if that particular
Sacrament is called for on that day. Weddings, Baptism, etc...
 One Sacrament ALWAYS celebrated at every Mass is The Holy Eucharist. 
Some call this Holy Communion. It is the same thing.

I think what your friend did not realize is this:
Although a lot of what takes place at a Mass is exactly the
same, this is not true for the Homily. This is what Protestants call the Preaching. 
The Priest will usually go with the topic of one of the readings for the day.
He does not have to. He can "preach" about anything on his mind, like any 
other Pastor, if he so chooses.

A little info here:

As defined by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Liturgical Year is "The celebration throughout the year of the mysteries of the Lord's birth, life, death, and Resurrection in such a way that the entire year becomes a 'year of the Lord's grace'. 

Thus the cycle of the liturgical year and the great feasts constitute the basic rhythm of the Christian's life of prayer, with its focal point at Easter.

The Liturgical calendar follows three year cycles:

In year A Matthew is the primary gospel.
In year B Mark is the primary gospel.
In year C Luke is the primary gospel.

Following is an alphabetical list of the principal feasts and liturgical seasons from the Catechism:

Advent - The liturgical season of four weeks devoted to preparation for the coming of Christ at Christmas (524).

Annunciation - The visit of the angel Gabriel to the virgin Mary to inform her that she was to be the mother of the Savior. After giving her consent to God's word, Mary became the mother of Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit (484, 494).

Ascension - The entry of Jesus' humanity into divine glory in God's heavenly domain, forty days after His Resurrection (659,665).

Assumption - The dogma that recognizes the Blessed Virgin Mary's singular participation in her Son's Resurrection by which she was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, when the course of her earthly life was finished (2124-5).

Christmas - The feast of the Nativity, the birth of Jesus (1171).

Easter - The greatest and oldest Christian feast, which celebrates Christ's Resurrection from the dead. Easter is the "feast of feasts", the solemnity of solemnities, the "Great Sunday". Christians prepare for it during Lent and Holy Week, and catechumens usually receive the Sacraments of Christian Initiation (Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist) at the Easter Vigil (1169; cf. 647).

Epiphany - The feast that celebrates the manifestation to the world of the newborn Christ as Messiah, Son of God, and Savior of the world. The feast of Epiphany celebrates the adoration of Jesus by the wise men (magi) from the east, together with his baptism in the Jordan and the wedding feast of Cana in Galilee (528; cf. 535).

Feast Days - The annual cycle of liturgical celebrations commemorating the saving mysteries of Christ's life, as a participation in the Paschal Mystery, which is celebrated annually at Easter, the "feast of feasts." Feast days commemorating Mary, the Mother of God, and the saints are also celebrated, providing the faithful with examples of those who have been glorified with Christ (1169, 1173).

Holy Days of Obligation - Principal feast days on which, in addition to Sundays, Catholics are obligated by Church law to participate in the Eucharist; a precept of the Church (2043, 2180).

Holy Week - The week preceding Easter, beginning with Palm (Passion) Sunday, called the "Great Week" in the liturgies of the Eastern Churches. It marks the Church's annual celebration of the events of Christ's passion, death, and resurrection, culminating in the Paschal Mystery (1169).

Immaculate Conception - The dogma proclaimed in Christian Tradition and defined in 1854, that from the first moment of her conception, Mary -- by the singular grace of God and by virtue of the merits of Jesus Christ -- was preserved immune from original sin (491).

Pentecost - The "fiftieth" day at the end of the seven weeks following Passover (Easter in the Christian dispensation). At the first Pentecost after the Resurrection and Ascension of Jesus, the Holy Spirit was manifested, given and communicated as a divine Person to the Church, fulfilling the paschal mystery of Christ according to His promise (726, 731; cf.1287). Annually the Church celebrates the memory of the Pentecost event as the beginning of the new "age of the Church", when Christ lives and acts in and with His Church (1076)

More on this and other Catholic subjects may be found
HERE: http://www.catholicexpert.com/index.html


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## Ronnie T (Feb 1, 2009)

Big7 said:


> OK - Here is your answer from a Catholic.
> 
> To make a real long story short it is called the
> Liturgical Calendar. It means that Catholics get the whole Bible,
> ...




Again, if you really want people to be interested in what you're saying, why don't you use the Bible for reference rather than cut and paste from your church creed?  It is the Bible that we believe in.


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 1, 2009)

jawja_peach said:


> HI! I've been sitting back reading here and there, as it seems that the things I've said haven't made an impact anywhere, so....I've not posted until now. I do see where you are coming from. But do understand that I am a Christian. I attend a Baptist Church and I love God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. In my faith we believe that we are to witness to others. Tell them about Jesus and how He died to save that which was lost. But at some point, when others aren't listening or acknowledging your testimony (like the point I've reached on here) it's time to kick the dust off your boots and move on, as you've done all you can. But remember the seeds in which we plant, and leave the rest up to God. But, some get to the point that they feel that they haven't gotten their opinion or belief across for others to see/understand. And why?? Because those that are on here 'yelling' about 'being attacked' are just as guilty as the others. It takes "two to tango" as the saying goes. So don't give me this lil they're picking on us junk...lol...We are all guilty and need to step up and remember that we all have our own beliefs. Our own way of doing things, and reading it on here, you have no tone of voice, no facial expressions, and etc. This causes people to take things wrong and then it's on. I agree with Pigpen that if a forum doesn't expect for things to get some what heated, they should have the smiles up that they have. We are all here for the same thing which is to meet others that share our faith, tell others our testimony, and learn about other denoms.
> 
> Now my belief is that if you are not Saved nor have faith, you will die and go to He!! I believe the BIBLE. The KJV Bible and all that is in those books. I believe its the Holy Word of God. Now, Catholics don't agree with me on this. I also believe that the Spirit of God will flow from breast to breast if we allow it and are right with God. (this is Bible) I believe that if we do such the Holy Spirit will ascend and our church meeting will be led by it and we will do what It tells us to do in our heart. We have no set routine. Not so with others. And there is one thing about Catholic worship that I don't understand. My niece is Catholic but doesn't go to Mass because she said that the sermons were the same every time she goes. That mass is the same one Sunday/Sat. as it was the year before that and that of the year ahead. How is this led of the spirit? I would like to know, if you can tell me. It's a question no one in my family, who are Catholic, can answer.
> There are tons of things out there we do not know. And maybe if we work together we can help each other learn. But see, again, my Baptist Faith leads me and instructs me to witness and that unless we are a Saved child of God, we won't see the kingdom of God. John 3:3. So all of y'all that aren't 'Saved' nor believe in this, we believe are going to He!!. And we don't want anyone to go to He!!. As some one spoke of religion, on here above, there are people- good moral people- who have 'religion' and they will bust He!! wide open. It's not 'RELIGION' it's 'SALVATION'!! Salvation my friends is the only thing that will keep ALL DENOMS OUT OF HE!! ..!!(my belief)
> ...





Ronnie T said:


> Again, if you really want people to be interested in what you're saying, why don't you use the Bible for reference rather than cut and paste from your church creed?  It is the Bible that we believe in.





Ron, I believ Big7 answered the way he did because Jawja asked a specific question about how a Catholic Service is conducted


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## celticfisherman (Feb 1, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Again, if you really want people to be interested in what you're saying, why don't you use the Bible for reference rather than cut and paste from your church creed?  It is the Bible that we believe in.



Got to disagree here. In MOST protestant churches you never hear the whole bible. Shoot in a lot I have visited when we moved places you MIGHT hear 1 verse read every Sunday. The Liturgucal calender makes sure that people can go frm one church to the next and hear the same message based on the same passages they would if they were at home. Also this ensures that over 3 years the Bible is read complete in every church. 

This is not a matter of Scripture. This is to ensure people hear the whole scripture in churches. It also takes the individual whims of the churches out of the equation.

But then again I believe sound liturgy keeps us from Heresy.


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## pigpen1 (Feb 1, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Today,
> I don't care about my church history, I care about God's word.
> I don't care what Luther said, I care what Jesus said.
> I don't care what Calvin taught, Calvin means nothing to me, I care about what Jesus taught.
> ...



 AMEN!!!!!!!!! mark it down again Ronnie........


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## Big7 (Feb 1, 2009)

Swamp Runner said:


> Ron, I believ Big7 answered the way he did because Jawja asked a specific question about how a Catholic Service is conducted



This is true.

Thanks, Swamp Runner

Ronnie, if someone asks me a question, I will answer it.
I will use CREDITABLE information, and if it is MY opinion,
that will be noted too...

You may not like my answer but I can't help that.

You read your Bible and interpret it the way you want.
I don't have a problem with that.

Catholics believe in Apostolic Succession, passed down through 
the ages as to how WE are to interpret the Bible.

Maybe if all you guys got together, you could experience 
the same joy that we have, because we are all on the same page.


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## crackerdave (Feb 1, 2009)

I have said several times that before any newcomer decides to write a thread or ask a question,they should do a simple search and see if it has already been discussed and/or beat to death.Obviously,that ain't happnin' because either folks are too lazy to search,or they think they've got something to say that's never been said in the history of mankind.Whatever the reason,I am sick of talking about Catholics.They're Christians,OK? It's not just the "Catholics vs. Everybody Else" foolishness,either.There are many topics and questions that are brought up over and over just in a couple month's time.

I wholeheartedly agree that many people  have been put off by the constant bickering over things on here that make absolutely NO difference.We're not playing "King of the hill" ,here folks - you do NOT have to have the last word on every thread,and you will NOT impress anybody with your cut and paste skills or your long -winded opinions.
That's my long - winded opinion!

PS - When you see Huntin'Tom or Vernon Holt voice an opinion,it'd be wise to pay attention.They don't post much,but when they do they always make good sense.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 1, 2009)

I'm a Southern Baptist; however, I consider Catholics who've personally accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior to be my brothers in Christ.

Do I have a lot of issues with the doctrine of the Catholic church? Most definitely! However, I've never let those issues become a stumbling block with those attend the Catholic church. 

Peace to all those who truly call Jesus their Lord and Savior.


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 1, 2009)

Lead Poison said:


> I'm a Southern Baptist; however, I consider Catholics who've personally accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior to be my brothers in Christ.
> 
> Do I have a lot of issues with the doctrine of the Catholic church? Most definitely! However, I've never let those issues become a stumbling block with those attend the Catholic church.
> 
> Peace to all those who truly call Jesus their Lord and Savior.




Now that sounds like sound doctrine to me.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 1, 2009)

Lead Poison said:


> I'm a Southern Baptist; however, I consider Catholics who've personally accepted Jesus as their Lord and Savior to be my brothers in Christ.
> 
> Do I have a lot of issues with the doctrine of the Catholic church? Most definitely! However, I've never let those issues become a stumbling block with those attend the Catholic church.
> 
> Peace to all those who truly call Jesus their Lord and Savior.



Amen!


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## rjcruiser (Feb 1, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> I just feel the need to help those who have been led astray by the anti-Christ, Martin Luther, and his minions. I just cannot have it on my soul that I let these the fine people of GON burn in he11 because they do not know the true Way to heaven. It is my duty as a Christian to lead these unbelievers to Christ and the True Church. I spent some time as a Protestant and if I had died before I came back to the RCC I would have gone to he11. I'm am just a simple servant ofthe Lord trying to do my part to witness the Truth to the unsaved protestants.



I'd say you are right on....if you are talking about people who pray and have idols of Martin Luther in their homes.  I'd say they'd be going to he!! as well.

If you spent time as a Protestant before and were praying to and worshiping Martin Luther...yup...you would have gone to he!!.  And yes...there are many many many Southern Baptists who will cry Lord Lord and he will say, Depart from me, I did not know you.



Free Willie said:


> Now that you've read the above post, how do you feel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Did it make me feel like you thought it would?


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## Israel (Feb 2, 2009)

Seems to me there's not one thing the Lord has given us that we do not, in blindness and ignorance, attempt to formularize, categorize, institutionalize and then liturgize.
Abundance of life just don't know those boundaries.
Old wineskins just don't hold new wine well.
Spirit and truth just won't be contained, nor defined.
It either defines you or not.
And takes you where it (He) wills, or not.
Everything else is just an attempt to put the brakes on when we get a glimpse of it being out of our own control...and we don't like where it (He) is headed.


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

*For the record...*

its not Catholic Vs. Protestant, that is the problem.  Its actually Catholic Vs. the Scriptures, with the Protestants standing on the Word of God as their foundation. Protestants are not looking to argue with Catholics b/c they (Pro) believe the Catholics do not agree with the Protestants but b/c the Catholics do not agree with the Scriptures. The Protestants and Baptists are only trying to get the Catholics to see that their (RC) doctrines do not line up with the Scriptures... Pro & Bap have no problem with Cath people at all...  Its the RC doctrine that does not line up with Scripture. Its when they take the traditions of men (that came long after Jesus and the Apostles) and use those man-made traditions, and make them more sacred than Scripture. There is no such thing as sacred tradition.

there is only sacred Scripture. thats all that was given to us. ex. transubstantiation was never a tradition, ever... so it cannot be incl'd in the traditions that were handed down by the Apostles.  it came hundreds of years after the Apostles so how could it be a tradition that is to be included...?  

so the arguement is really about RC's and their traditions Vs. Scripture. Bap and Prot's stand on the Bible as their only source of inspiration and RC's stand on tradition and the teachings of the pope and magisterium. The Bible takes a back row seat in the RC church... and that can be soul damming...  Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.... *not*, faith by tradition or faith by the pope... as a long term RC turned born-again believer... i know both sides of the fence, where most of you have only been on one side of the fence...


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

I wouldn't be using words like baptists use only the bible for inspiration. I mean come on. Where do you get the rapture and the "left behind" stuff. It is only from a VERY VERY VERY modern "interpretation" of the Bible. In fact so modern it didn't arrive on the Christian scene until the 1860's. So you even got beat by the mormons...


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I wouldn't be using words like baptists use only the bible for inspiration. I mean come on. Where do you get the rapture and the "left behind" stuff. It is only from a VERY VERY VERY modern "interpretation" of the Bible. In fact so modern it didn't arrive on the Christian scene until the 1860's. So you even got beat by the mormons...



last time i checked, it wasnt me teaching the rapture and left behind stuff....  the left behind series is a money making book just as Hal Lindsey's book (Late Great) was back in the 80's... those books are to make money... just as CS Lewis' were. and Karl Keatings and Bellarmines'.. they are all geared at making money... dont blame Tim Lahaye for wanting to make a buck or then you have to blame everyone that has ever written anything that did not line up with the Bible...  not all Bapt believe in the rapture and left behind... most Baptists use only Scripture as their guide. it is the foundation and everything else is just an uninspired writing that may help understand the Bible but it has to line wup with the Bible or be discounted.

satan comes as a counterfeiter... looking to lead Christians astray.  he does this by many ways and when people start going off into the wilderness w/o their Bible as their protection, they are likely to fall prey to a wolf...


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Big10point said:


> last time i checked, it wasnt me teaching the rapture and left behind stuff....  the left behind series is a money making book just as Hal Lindsey's book (Late Great) was back in the 80's... those books are to make money... just as CS Lewis' were. and Karl Keatings and Bellarmines'.. they are all geared at making money... dont blame Tim Lahaye for wanting to make a buck or then you have to blame everyone that has ever written anything that did not line up with the Bible...  not all Bapt believe in the rapture and left behind... most Baptists use only Scripture as their guide. it is the foundation and everything else is just an uninspired writing that may help understand the Bible but it has to line wup with the Bible or be discounted.
> 
> satan comes as a counterfeiter... looking to lead Christians astray.  he does this by many ways and when people start going off into the wilderness w/o their Bible as their protection, they are likely to fall prey to a wolf...



Aww please "most baptists" don't believe that??? Only if you count the mega churches who have thousands who don't believe anything of substance.

CS Lewis only wanted to make money??? The most influential man since Luther in the reformation and you believe he only wanted to make money??? 

There is no common ground with you. There is no desire to look into the history and glory of Christendom. You shun everything for what YOU "interpret" yet you make fun and ridicule everyone else who has a different interpretation!

I'm guessing Paul only went on his missionary journey to make money as well. What about Stephen? Was he stoned for a mistunderstanding over money? Of course all those people who followed Henry VIII in creating the protestant church did so just out of greed too. Truth is some people do. Tim LaHaye is one. And the damage he has done will not be known for generations. But there are people whose ideas and thoughts are worth reading. Lewis, Barth, Athanasius, Aquinas all had stuff not to add but to help people understand the bible more. If you cannot except that then make sure your bible doesn't have footnotes and is written in all the original languages and is a xerox of the original texts. Including the 10 commandments.

Otherwise I see hatred and bile in your attitude and nothing that reflects a desire to "help" anyone.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> If you knew both sides of the fence then you would know that the Sacred Scripture comes from and is equal to Sacred Tradition in the eyes of the Church. And that every Mass is full of more Scripture then most people hear in a year. You claims of being a former Catholic do not stand up. Where you a craddle Catholic, where your parents Catholic, why is it that you nothing of what you claim to be?



Amen! But then don't confuse anyone with the facts of scripture or how much Catholics and Anglicans and Lutherans and Episcopals hear the gospel verses the one verse that is read in a Southern Baptist church.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Yes. Anyone can "interpret" the scripture. That's why there are 200 forms of baptists... Or however many it is.

They only discount the interpretation of Catholics and Anglicans. Billy Graham gets it right but not Lewis, Athanasius, or Aquinas, or Augustine. It's funny they rail about your traditions but replaced them with their own which of course MUST be divinely inspired. They must be the only ones who have truly understood what God meant.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> I just feel the need to help those who have been led astray by the anti-Christ, Martin Luther, and his minions. I just cannot have it on my soul that I let these the fine people of GON burn in he11 because they do not know the true Way to heaven. It is my duty as a Christian to lead these unbelievers to Christ and the True Church. I spent some time as a Protestant and if I had died before I came back to the RCC I would have gone to he11. I'm am just a simple servant ofthe Lord trying to do my part to witness the Truth to the unsaved protestants.



At this point, as a born-again bible-believer I would like to make the point that I expect to stop hearing all the whinning now from Roman Catholic concerning "anti-catholics" on the boards. I can just imagine the outcry if I posted a thread on the Reformed/Protestant view that the papacy is the Man of Sin and very Anti-Christ. 

So Free Willie, no more complaining against non-Roman Catholics about their stand against your church...your rhetoric is just as strong and can be construed as just as hostile and virolic as some Roman Catholics have complained about others who have criticized the papacy. 

In the same vein as your thread here, I am sure many protestants and evangelicals feel the same way about witnessing to Roman Catholics. I for one believe the Roman Catholic system and its gospel is what the bible would call a ****able heresy...meaning, if it is adhered to and trust in as the way to heaven, it actually leads one to destruction. I believe the Roman Catholic doctrines and dogma lead a person to trust in man and not in Christ. 

I believe the Roman Catholic dogmas and system enslaves a persons will and conscience to their system which has no grace at all to save. 

So just as you want to reach out to non-catholics to lead them to your church for salvation, I want to reach out to Roman Catholics to lead them to Christ alone where salvation can be found. 

With strong convictions on both sides of this debate I beleive it can be done respectfully. If we find ourselves losing a bit of self-control because of emotions, et. then we should back out of the dicussion. 

-five


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> I have never attend a Southern Baptist Church. What do they do? I can not imagine that with all the talk about scripture that they do not read at least whole chapters or even books at their services.
> 
> 
> I would think that all they would do is read scripture.
> ...



Why would you criticize something your ignorant of? Have you not lamented some non-catholic's criticism claiming that they really don't understand Roman Catholic teaching, yet hear you readily admit you don't know much about the Southern Baptist denomination, yet you criticize. 

Also, your thoughts here indicate to me that you really have no idea what Sola Scriptura is. Perhaps you could share your understanding of what you think Sola Scriptura is?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

But telling the Catholic he is involved in ****able heresy is OK? You are sure?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> I was not making a joke. I have never attend a Baptist service. I was only make a guess based on what I have read about their understanding of scripture and who can interpret it.



I didn't think you were. It's just funny. You would believe that and you would be wrong. They read far less in service than anyplace else I have ever gone before.


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Aww please "most baptists" don't believe that??? Only if you count the mega churches who have thousands who don't believe anything of substance.
> 
> CS Lewis only wanted to make money??? The most influential man since Luther in the reformation and you believe he only wanted to make money???
> 
> ...



cf, you are obviously a RC at heart... you defend the papacy, whose got the blood of millions on their  hands and you condemn the just.... let me tell you what God thinks of thats....

Proverbs 17:15
He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD

and i am a Bible only Christian. I dont want, nor need Lewis, Aquinas, Graham or any other sinful mans works to lead me to God.  The Bible does that perfectly.  Yes, there are some good Christian writings out there but how do i know which ones??? I dont, so I'll just stick with my Bible. 

if you want to spend all your time reading occult writings by Lewis, go for it... for me and my family, we will serve the Lord...


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> But telling the Catholic he is involved in ****able heresy is OK? You are sure?



Is telling a protestant, say a Lutheran, that Martin Luther is anti-christ OK?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Anyone remember the movie or book "A River Runs Thru It"? His father stated that Methodists were just baptists that could read...


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Big10point said:


> cf, you are obviously a RC at heart... you defend the papacy, whose got the blood of millions on their  hands and you condemn the just.... let me tell you what God thinks of thats....
> 
> Proverbs 17:15
> He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD
> ...




I give up. You are not serving the Lord. You are bashing his Church and his people. You are even more misguided than I believed. I BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE!!! WHY CAN"T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT! ARE YOU REALLY THAT DENSE OR JUST THAT HATE FILLED?

I am not Catholic. I simply do not believe in the unfair characteristics and attacks you have heaped on the RCC. You know Baptists and Presbyterians and Protestants have the blood of millions on their hands too. Let's not forget Mary Queen of Scots, the indian wars, Cromwell's England, the Catholic hunts after the reformation in England and Germany. The slaughter of Jews on several occasions. Including as late as 1948. The English fought against the state of Israel being created. Funded the arabs.

So please look at ALL your history. Not just the pick and choose crap.

God gave certain men gifts that were to explain his works. Apparently you didn't read what Paul says on this. You may not "need" Lewis and the rest but you sure could do with some humility. They were far more humble and striving to serve God's people. You care nothing for that. just your interpretation.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Anyone remember the movie or book "A River Runs Thru It"? His father stated that Methodists were just baptists that could read...



How disparaging. Got any other non-helping tips to add the discussion?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Is telling a protestant, say a Lutheran, that Martin Luther is anti-christ OK?



He was making a point about yours and Big10pts posts. I for one got it. And he was right.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Celticfisherman,

I believe you need to take a step back and chill out. 





> I give up. You are not serving the Lord. You are bashing his Church and his people. You are even more misguided than I believed.



While you disagree with the user who you replied to, this is clearly a personal attack. This, I would think, is the kind of thing we are trying to avoid on the forums. 




> I BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE!!! WHY CAN"T YOU UNDERSTAND THAT! ARE YOU REALLY THAT DENSE OR JUST THAT HATE FILLED?



More virolic personal attacks. Really celtic, this is waaaay out of line. 





> So please look at ALL your history. Not just the pick and choose crap.



Wow...pretty frothy don't you think? Why? 



> God gave certain men gifts that were to explain his works. Apparently you didn't read what Paul says on this. You may not "need" Lewis and the rest but you sure could do with some humility. They were far more humble and striving to serve God's people. You care nothing for that. just your interpretation.



Again, you go on to personal attacks. I am sure this is what the forum rules are trying to stop. 

Why not just apologize for the personal attacks and return to a civil discussion. 

-five


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> How disparaging. Got any other non-helping tips to add the discussion?



I'll think of some more and post them later. Truth hurts.

Ever wonder why that is said???

Baptist preachers in the late 19th century were not required to have an education. Even to be able to read. That is why the baptist church is so wide spread. Methodists eventually did this Presbyterians never did thus the reason the Pres church is so narrowly represented in an area that is full of their descendants such as the Scots Irish in Appalachia.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> He was making a point about yours and Big10pts posts. I for one got it. And he was right.



So let me understand you correctly, its ok for a ROman Catholic to call protestants antichrist, but not ok for protestants to call the papacy antichrist? Is that about the jist of it? 

I would call that hypocrisy. 

-five


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Celticfisherman,
> 
> I believe you need to take a step back and chill out.
> 
> ...



Of course that is written to me but not to Big10pt with whom you agree.

I really have had it up to here with the hatred spewed on this issue. Why don't you apologize?


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> So let me understand you correctly, its ok for a ROman Catholic to call protestants antichrist, but not ok for protestants to call the papacy antichrist? Is that about the jist of it?
> 
> I would call that hypocrisy.
> 
> -five



No.

But he asked HOW WOULD YOU FEEL. His point is valid.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> I do not believe I have criticized any Southern Baptist. I have shown where I diagree with their doctrines, and if my understanding of their doctrine is incorrect then they tell me. However I have not told anyone that they are going to He l l because they are Southern Baptist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is a criticism: "Is there a point of having a preacher to interpret when anyone in the congregation can decide what is being said in scripture?" 

It is criticism in the form a question. Nothing wrong with criticism. That was not my point. My point was that when non-Roman Catholics criticism the papacy and its doctrines they are labelled negatively. When Roman Catholics do it they want to be exempt from the same judgment they are passing on others. That is hypocritical in my view. 

Your definition of Sola Scriptura is odd. I have never heard that definition before. Some would define it as the Scripture alone is the final authority for faith and practice to God's people. All I would add in a simple definition like that is that Scripture alone is sufficient. The Roman Catholic dogma of Scripture and Sacred Tradition denies that Scripture alone is a SUFFICIENT rule for faith and practice. 

The reformed/protestant doctrine of Sola Scriptura counters the Roman Catholic position that Scripture itself is not sufficient. 

-five


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> No.
> 
> But he asked HOW WOULD YOU FEEL. His point is valid.



Then it is possible I misunderstood him. It seems like his post was just simply calling non-roman catholics and Martin Luther anti-christ. He is certainly entitled to his view. In fact, I don't have an issue IF he chose to use that rhetoric. 

I was just pointing out the hyporcrisy of it if that is what he was doing. Perhaps he can clarify for us all next time he comes on.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

That's only a strict interpretation by newer "reformed" churches. The reformation remember was put forth by Catholics. The Anglican church doesn't hold to this interpretation.


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## gtparts (Feb 2, 2009)

This forum would be much improved if those who claim the name of Christ would spend more time on their spiritual knees than they spend standing in the flesh. Too often Christ is put to shame because of what is typed here. Why not try living what you say you believe?


If the "sandals" fit, consider them a gift from one who cares.

Grace and peace.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Of course that is written to me but not to Big10pt with whom you agree.
> 
> I really have had it up to here with the hatred spewed on this issue. Why don't you apologize?



I have never hated anyone on this board. I do disagree with the papacy's doctrines and dogmas. I have strong opinions of them. I have never on these boards made any personal attacks like you just did to big10point. You, sir, are the one who needs to apologize.


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> If you knew both sides of the fence then you would know that the Sacred Scripture comes from and is equal to Sacred Tradition in the eyes of the Church. And that every Mass is full of more Scripture then most people hear in a year. You claims of being a former Catholic do not stand up. Where you a craddle Catholic, where your parents Catholic, why is it that you nothing of what you claim to be?



i sat in the pews of RC church for a long time and i know that they have 2 readings in the mass... thats all. no more, no less. and its only a few paragraphs... they spend the majority, 30 of their 45 minute mass, recrucifying our precious Savior, over and over and over, putting Him to a public shame... Jesus said "it is finished..."  how about reading Hebrew 6 and 7 and then come back and tell me ir we're supposed to recrucify Jesus over and over... its a hideous and disgusting tradition.

to say that they read more Scripture than other churches is a lie...  my claims of being RC for a long time do stand up b/c thats what i was... are you calling me a liar now? 

as far as your church and thei thoughts on the Bible... here you go...

The  Bible  is  Divine,  But   Dead

     "The Scriptures indeed is a divine book but it is a dead letter, which has to be explained, and cannot exercise the action which the preacher can obtain." Our Priesthood, by Rev. Joseph Bruneau, S.D.D., p 155, B. Herder Company, 1911 ("nihil obstat" by M.F. Dinneen, S.S.,D.D. -Censor deputatus, "imprimatur" by James Cardinal Gibbons -Archbishop of Baltimore, "Re-Imprimatur" by Michael J. Curley -Archbishop of Baltimore).

     "...(The Bible is) A dead and speechless book." Bertrand L. Conway, Question Box, p 67, The Columbus Press, 1913.

     "The simple fact is that the Bible, like all dead letters, calls for a living interpreter." The Faith of Millions, by Rev. John A. O'Brien, Ph.D., LL.D., p 155, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, Ind., 1938, ("nihil obstat" by Rev. T. E. Dillon-Censor Librorum and "imprimatur" by John Francis Noll, D.D. -Bishop of Fort Wayne). 

     "We confess that the Holy Scripture is imperfect, and a dead letter, until it is explained by the Supreme Pontiff, and allowed by him to be read by the laity." Roman Catholic Confessions for Protestants Oath, Article XXI, (Confessio Romano-Catholica in Hungaria Evangelicis publice praescripta te proposita, editi a Streitwolf), as recorded in Congressional Record of the U.S.A., House Bill 1523, Contested election case of Eugene C. Bonniwell, against Thos. S. Butler, Feb. 15, 1913.
http://www.geocities.com/visplace/godsmith20.htm

The  Catholic  Church  is   Above  the  Bible

     "She (the Catholic Church) is not the child of the Bible, as many non-Catholics imagine, but its mother. She derives neither her existence nor her teaching authority from the New Testament." The Faith of Millions, by Rev. John A. O'Brien, Ph.D., LL.D., p 146, published by Our Sunday Visitor, Huntington, Ind., 1938, ("nihil obstat" by Rev. T. E. Dillon-Censor Librorum and "imprimatur" by John Francis Noll, D.D. -Bishop of Fort Wayne). 

The Catholic Church is the Only  Lawful Administrator, Authenticator, Interpreter, Custodian, Possessor, and Protector of the Scriptures

     “The task of interpreting the Word of God authentically has been entrusted solely to the Magisterium of the Church, that is, to the Pope and to the bishops in communion with him.” Universal Catholic Catechism, #100.
http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/profess3.html#INTERPRETATION

     “Since Scripture is the written word of God, its contents are Divinely guaranteed truths, revealed either in the strict or the wider sense of the word. Again, since the inspiration of a writing cannot be known without Divine testimony, God must have revealed which are the books that constitute Sacred Scripture. Moreover, theologians teach that Christian Revelation was complete in the Apostles, and that its deposit was entrusted to the Apostles to guard and to promulgate. Hence the apostolic deposit of Revelation contained not merely Sacred Scripture in the abstract, but also the knowledge as to its constituent books. Scripture, then, is an Apostolic deposit entrusted to the Church, and to the Church belongs its lawful administration. This position of Sacred Scripture in the Church implies the following consequences:
     "(1) The Apostles promulgated both the Old and New Testament as a document received from God. It is antecedently probable that God should not cast his written Word upon men as a mere windfall, coming from no known authority, but that he should entrust its publication to the care of those whom he was sending to preach the Gospel to all nations, and with whom he had promised to be for all days, even to the consummation of the world. In conformity with this principle, St. Jerome (De script. eccl.) says of the Gospel of St. Mark: "When Peter had heard it, he both approved of it and ordered it to be read in the churches". The Fathers testify to the promulgation of Scripture by the Apostles where they treat of the transmission of the inspired writings.
     "(2) The transmission of the inspired writings consists in the delivery of Scripture by the Apostles to their successors with the right, the duty, and the power to continue its promulgation, to preserve its integrity and identity, to explain its meaning, to use it in proving and illustrating Catholic teaching, to oppose and condemn any attack upon its doctrine, or any abuse of its meaning. We may infer all this from the character of the inspired writings and the nature of the Apostolate; but it is also attested by some of the weightiest writers of the early Church. St. Irenaeus insists upon these points against the Gnostics, who appealed to Scripture as to private historical documents. He excludes this Gnostic view, first by insisting on the mission of the Apostles and upon the succession in the Apostolate, especially as seen in the Church of Rome (Haer., III, 3-4); secondly, by showing that the preaching of the Apostles continued by their successors contains a supernatural guarantee of infallibility through the indwelling of the Holy Ghost (Haer., III, 24); thirdly, by combining the Apostolic succession and the supernatural guarantee of the Holy Ghost (Haer., IV, 26). It seems plain that, if Scripture cannot be regarded as a private historical document on account of the official mission of the Apostles, on account of the official succession in the Apostolate of their successors, on account of the assistance of the Holy Ghost promised to the Apostles and their successors, the promulgation of Scripture, the preservation of its integrity and identity, and the explanation of its meaning must belong to the Apostles and their legitimate successors. The same principles are advocated by the great Alexandrian doctor, Origen (De princ., Praef.). "That alone", he says, "is to be believed to be the truth which in nothing differs from the ecclesiastical and and Apostolical tradition". In another passage (in Matth. tr. XXIX, n. 46-47), he rejects the contention urged by the heretics "as often as they bring forward canonical Scriptures in which every Christian agrees and believes", that "in the houses is the word of truth"; "for from it (the Church) alone the sound hath gone forth into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world". That the African Church agrees with the Alexandrian, is clear from the words of Tertullian (De praescript., nn, 15, 19). He protests against the admission of heretics "to any discussion whatever touching the Scriptures". "This question should be first proposed, which is now the only one to be discussed, `To whom belongs the faith itself: whose are the Scriptures'?. . .For the true Scriptures and the true expositions and all the true Christian traditions will be wherever both the true Christian rule and faith shall be shown to be". St. Augustine endorses the same position when he says: "I should not believe the Gospel except on the authority of the Catholic Church" (Con. epist. Manichaei, fundam., n. 6).
     "(3) By virtue of its official and permanent promulgation, Scripture is a public document, the Divine authority of which is evident to all the members of the Church.
     "(4) The Church necessarily possesses a text of Scripture, which is internally authentic, or substantially identical with the original. Any form or version of the text, the internal authenticity of which the Church has approved either by its universal and constant use, or by a formal declaration, enjoys the character of external or public authenticity, i.e., its conformity with the original must not merely be presumed juridically, but must be admitted as certain on account of the infallibility of the Church.
     "(5) The authentic text, legitimately promulgated, is a source and rule of faith, though it remains only a means or instrument in the hands of the teaching body of the Church, which alone has the right of authoritatively interpreting Scripture.
     "(6) The administration and custody of Scripture is not entrusted directly to the whole Church, but to its teaching body, though Scripture itself is the common property of the members of the whole Church. While the private handling of Scripture is opposed to the fact that it is common property, its administrators are bound to communicate its contents to all the members of the Church.
     "(7) Though Scripture is the property of the Church alone, those outside her pale may use it as a means of discovering or entering the Church. But Tertullian shows that they have no right to apply Scripture to their own purposes or to turn it against the Church. He also teaches Catholics how to contest the right of heretics to appeal to Scripture at all (by a kind of demurrer), before arguing with them on single points of Scriptural doctrine.

     "(8) The rights of the teaching body of the Church include also that of issuing and enforcing decrees for promoting the right use, or preventing the abuse of Scripture. Not to mention the definition of the Canon (see CANON), the Council of Trent issued two decrees concerning the Vulgate (see VULGATE), and a decree concerning the interpretation of Scripture (see EXEGESIS, HERMENEUTICS), and this last enactment was repeated in a more stringent form by the Vatican Council (sess. III, Conc. Trid., sess. IV). The various decisions of the Biblical Commission derive their binding force from this same right of the teaching body of the Church. (Cf. Stapleton, Princ. Fid. Demonstr., X-XI; Wilhelm and Scannell, 'Manual of Catholic Theology', London, 1890, I, 61 sqq.; Scheeben, 'Handbuch der katholischen Dogmatik', Freiburg, 1873, I, 126 sqq.)." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, “Scripture”, Section V, Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13635b.htm

     "The belief in the Bible as the sole source of faith is unhistorical, illogical, fatal to the virtue of faith, and destructive of unity." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section III A - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone"), Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm

     "The [first] objective [or formal] principle (of Protestantism) proclaims the canonical Scriptures, especially the New Testament to be the only infallible source and rule of faith and practice, and asserts the right of private interpretation of the same, in distinction from the Roman Catholic view, which declares the Bible and tradition to be co-ordinate sources and rule of faith, and makes tradition, especially the decrees of popes and councils, the only legitimate and infallible interpreter of the Bible." The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume XIII, "Protestantism", Section I, 1 - Sola Scriptura ("Bible Alone"), Nihil Obstat, February 1, 1912 by Remy Lafort, D.D., Censor, Imprimatur. +John Cardinal Farley, Archbishop of New York.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12495a.htm"

     "The task of interpreting authentically the Word of God has been entrusted exclusively to the living teaching office of the Church." Vatican Council II, "Dei Verbum," ch. 2:10; ed. Fr. Austin Flannery, OP, Northport, NY: Costello Publishing Co., 1975, p. 755, (quoted in The Apostolic Digest, by Michael Malone, Book 4: "The Book of Christians", Chapter 3: "True Faith Can Be Found Only in the Catholic Church").
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Troy/6480/catholics/apostolic4chp3.html

All Non-Catholic Approved Bible Translations, Are Forbidden and  Condemned, and Heretical

     "This is the goal too of the crafty Bible Societies which renew the old skill of the heretics and ceaselessly force on people of all kinds, even the uneducated, gifts of the Bible. They issue these in large numbers and at great cost, in vernacular (language of the people) translations, which infringe the holy rules of the Church. The commentaries which are included often contain perverse explanations; so, having rejected divine tradition, the doctrine of the Fathers and the authority of the Catholic Church, they all interpret the words of the Lord by their own private judgment, thereby perverting their meaning. As a result, they fall into the greatest errors. Gregory XVI of happy memory, Our superior predecessor, followed the lead of his own predecessors in rejecting these societies in his apostolic letters. It is Our will to condemn them likewise." Pope Pius IX, Qui Pluribus (On Faith And Religion), Encyclical promulgated on November 9, 1846, #14.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/P9QUIPLU.HTM

     "Moreover, regarding the translation of the Bible into the vernacular, even many centuries ago bishops in various places have at times had to exercise greater vigilance when they became aware that such translations were being read in secret gatherings or were being distributed by heretics. Innocent III issued warnings concerning the secret gatherings of laymen and women, under the pretext of piety, for the reading of Scripture in the diocese of Metz. There was also a special prohibition of Scripture translations promulgated either in Gaul a little later or in Spain before the sixteenth century. But later even more care was required when the Lutherans and Calvinists dared to oppose the changeless doctrine of the faith with an almost incredible variety of errors. They left no means untried to deceive the faithful with perverse explanations of the sacred books, which were published by their adherents with new interpretations in the vernacular. They were aided in multiplying copies and quickly spreading them by the newly invented art of printing. Therefore in the rules written by the fathers chosen by the Council of Trent, approved by Pius IV,'s and placed in the Index of forbidden books, we read the statute declaring that vernacular Bibles are forbidden except to those for whom it is judged that the reading will contribute 'to the increase of faith and piety.' Because of the continued deceptions of heretics, this rule was further restricted and supplemented by a declaration of Benedict XIV: for the future the only vernacular translations which may be read are those which 'are approved by the Apostolic See' or at least were published 'with annotations taken from the holy Fathers of the Church, or from learned and Catholic authors.'...
     "Now, however...We learned from reports and documents just received that a number of men of various sects met in the city of New York last year on June 12 and founded a new society called Christian League. Their common purpose is to spread religious liberty, or rather an insane desire for indifference concerning religion...the societies have concentrated on these people so that they will bring corrupt, vernacular Bibles here and secretly spread them among the faithful. They will also distribute other evil books and pamphlets composed with the aid of some Italians or translated into Italian in order to alienate the minds of the readers from the Holy Church and from obedience to it. Among these they designate particularly the Histoire de la reformation by Merle d'Aubigne and Fostes de la Reforme en Italie by John Cric.... 
     "Therefore, taking counsel with a number of Cardinals, and weighing the whole matter seriously and in good time, We have decided to send this letter to all of you. We again condemn all the above-mentioned biblical societies of which our predecessors disapproved. We specifically condemn the new one called Christian League founded last year in New York and other societies of the same kind, if they have already joined with it or do so in the future. Therefore let it be known to all that anyone who joins one of these societies, or aids it, or favors it in any way will be guilty of a grievous crime. Besides We confirm and renew by Our apostolic authority the prescriptions listed and published long ago concerning the publication, dissemination, reading, and possession of vernacular translations of sacred Scriptures. Concerning other works of any writer We repeat that all must abide by the general rules and decrees of Our predecessors which are found in the Index of forbidden books, and indeed not only for those books specifically listed, but also for others to which the aforementioned prohibitions apply.
     "Thus, We emphatically exhort you to announce these Our commands to the people accredited to your pastoral care; explain them in the proper place and time, and strive mightily to keep the faithful sheep away from the Christian League and other biblical societies, as well as away from their followers. Also take from the faithful both the vernacular Bibles which have been published contrary to the sanctions of the Roman Pontiffs and all other books which are proscribed and condemned." Pope Gregory XVI, Inter Praecipuas (On Biblical Societies), Encyclical promulgated on May 8, 1844, #4, 9, 11 & 12.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/G16INTER.HTM


The Holy Scriptures Should Be  Rejected in Order to Follow Church Tradition--Even if That Tradition is Erroneous

     "If we must choose between the Holy Scriptures of God, and the old errors of the church, we should reject the former."Johnan Faber (a defender of the Papacy) cited in History of The Reformation, by Merle d'Aubinge, book 11, Chapter 5, Paragraph 9.

Catholic  Tradition is More Safe to Follow Than the Bible

     "Like two sacred rivers flowing from paradaise, the Bible and divine tradition contain the word of God, the precious gems of revealed truths. Though these two divine streams are in themselves, on acount of their divine origin, of equal sacredness, and are both full of revealed truths, still of the two, tradition is to us more clear and safe." Catholic Belief, by Joseph Faa di Bruno, p 45.


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

> Baptist preachers in the late 19th century were not required to have an education. Even to be able to read. That is why the baptist church is so wide spread.



celtic, would you please elaborate in this statement of yours. Are you saying that the the Baptist church is widespread because its preachers were illiterate?


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> celtic, would you please elaborate in this statement of yours. Are you saying that the the Baptist church is widespread because its preachers were illiterate?



They choose to get more preachers in the field by lowering the educational standards.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> It was not meant as criticism it was and is an ernest question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



when i made my comment about "checking your brain at the door...."  here is why i made that comment....  its from your own teachings....

When You Become a  Member of the Catholic Church, You Are to Give Up Your Reasoning Powers and Obey Blindly Without Listening to Your Conscience

     “Once he does so (joins the Catholic church), he has no further use for his reason. He enters the Church, an edifice illumined by the superior light of revelation and faith. He can leave reason like a lantern at the door.” Explanation of Catholic Morals, A Concise, Reasoned, and Popular Exposition of Catholic Morals, by John H. Stapleton, p 76, Benziger Brothers, NY, 1913. 


"Obey blindly , that is, without asking reasons. Be careful, then, never to examine the directions of your confessor....In a word, keep before your eyes this great rule, that in obeying your confessor you obey God. Force yourself then, to obey him in spite of all fears. And be persuaded that if you are not obedient to him it will be impossible for you to go on well; but if you obey him you are secure. But you say, if I am dammed, in  consequence of obeying my confessor, who will rescue me from helll, What you say is impossible." St. Alphonsus De Liguori, True Spouse of Christ, p 352, Benziger Brothers, NY. 

"There is only one remedy for this evil (an over scrupulous conscience), and that remedy is absolute and blind obedience to a prudent director. Choose one, consult him as often as you desire, but do not leave him for another. Then submit punctiliously to his direction. His conscience must be yours for the time being. And if you should err in following him, God will hold him, and not you responsible." Explanation of Catholic Morals, A Concise, Reasoned, and Popular Exposition of Catholic Morals, by John H. Stapleton, p 24, Benziger Brothers, NY, 1913. 

No One Should Have the Freedom to  Choose What Non-Catholic Religion They Consider to be True

     "[It is error to believe that] Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section III,  Indifferentism, Latitudinarianism, #15.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

     "[It is error to believe that] Hence it has been wisely decided by law, in some Catholic countries, that persons coming to reside therein shall enjoy the public exercise of their own peculiar worship." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern Liberalism, #78.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

No One Should Have the  Freedom to Express, or Publish, His Non-Catholic Religious Beliefs

     "[It is error to believe that] Moreover, it is false that the civil liberty of every form of worship, and the full power, given to all, of overtly and publicly manifesting any opinions whatsoever and thoughts, conduce more easily to corrupt the morals and minds of the people, and to propagate the pest of indifferentism." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section X, Errors Having Reference to Modern LiberalismI, #79.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P9SYLL.HTM

     "This shameful font of indifferentism gives rise to that absurd and erroneous proposition which claims that liberty of conscience must be maintained for everyone. It spreads ruin in sacred and civil affairs, though some repeat over and over again with the greatest impudence that some advantage accrues to religion from it....a pestilence more deadly to the state than any other. Experience shows, even from earliest times, that cities renowned for wealth, dominion, and glory perished as a result of this single evil, namely immoderate freedom of opinion, license of free speech, and desire for novelty. 
     "Here We must include that harmful and never sufficiently denounced freedom to publish any writings whatever and disseminate them to the people, which some dare to demand and promote with so great a clamor. We are horrified to see what monstrous doctrines and prodigious errors are disseminated far and wide in countless books, pamphlets, and other writings which, though small in weight, are very great in malice." Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (On Liberalism and Religious Indifferentism), Encyclical promulgated on August 15, 1832, #14 & 15.
http://www.ewtn.com/library/ENCYC/G16MIRAR.HTM

The Catholic Church Has the Right to Use Power to  Force Obedience

     "[It is error to believe that] The (Catholic) Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect." Pope Pius IX, The Syllabus (of Errors), Issued in 1864, Section V,  Errors Concerning the Church and Her Rights, #24.


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> It was not meant as criticism it was and is an ernest question.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I do think your definition falls short of what protestants truly mean by Sola Scriptura. I think the subject of Sola Scripture would make a fine thread. Perhaps we could start one? 

Concerning the criticism of the Roman Catholic Church you mentioned here, it is inflamatory. If a protestant or otherwise wants to share their view that the papacy is the woman that rides the beast in Revelation, then they should: 

1. Be permitted to do so. 
2. Back it up with Scripture and some fact. 
3. Be senstive that it is very hard to hear if you are Roman Catholic. 

my .02c. 

-five


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> They choose to get more preachers in the field by lowering the educational standards.




"lowering the educational standards..."  ???  pure ignorance.... 
even if that comment were true....
i'll take an uneducated but Holy Spirit filled, born-again Baptist pastor, over a satan filled, very educated (in satanism) catholic priest any day of the week....


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Why would you criticize something your ignorant of? Have you not lamented some non-catholic's criticism claiming that they really don't understand Roman Catholic teaching, yet hear you readily admit you don't know much about the Southern Baptist denomination, yet you criticize.
> 
> Also, your thoughts here indicate to me that you really have no idea what Sola Scriptura is. Perhaps you could share your understanding of what you think Sola Scriptura is?



You seem to do a lot of that too..
Example: Your post # 53.

And - You did not get the jest of willie's post. 
Most of the rest of us did.
His anaology was " how does it feel when the shoe is
on the other foot". I am NOT speaking for willie.

As far as understanding Sola Scriptura, Catholics may or may not even care. It is not part of Catholic Doctrine.
It is not a part of my faith and I for one, could care less
and have absolutly no need to understand it.

It is always the same few on here that turn this forum into what it has become. I'm sure Christ is just crazy about that.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Big10point said:


> "lowering the educational standards..."  ???  pure ignorance....
> even if that comment were true....
> i'll take an uneducated but Holy Spirit filled, born-again Baptist pastor, over a satan filled, very educated (in satanism) catholic priest any day of the week....



Nope it's historical. Just doesn't jive with your interpretation.

And this post is a prime example.


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## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> If you knew both sides of the fence then you would know that the Sacred Scripture comes from and is equal to Sacred Tradition in the eyes of the Church. And that every Mass is full of more Scripture then most people hear in a year. You claims of being a former Catholic do not stand up. Where you a craddle Catholic, where your parents Catholic, why is it that you nothing of what you claim to be?



I would like to know the answer to this too...


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> How long?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i thank God every day of my life (since being born-again) that I _was_ poorly "catechized"...  had i been more catechized, i may not have escaped out of the cult that was destroying my soul... and taking it to helll...


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## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Amen! But then don't confuse anyone with the facts of scripture or how much Catholics and Anglicans and Lutherans and Episcopals hear the gospel verses the one verse that is read in a Southern Baptist church.



BINGO!

You get the prize today!


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## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I didn't think you were. It's just funny. You would believe that and you would be wrong. They read far less in service than anyplace else I have ever gone before.



Yep


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## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> You are correct. I would hope that Willie does clarify.



There you go.


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## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nope it's historical. Just doesn't jive with your interpretation.
> 
> And this post is a prime example.



Man, You are on a roll today.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Please wait one minute...
> 
> Here you claim you spent your whole life as a Catholic
> 
> ...



No - He can't "interpret" math all by himself either. 

Dominic - I'm  at you.
I had that all saved out and you beat me to it. 

So - Now that he lost all the creditability, he 
never had in the first place, let's just ignore him from now on.

There was an old song "You dropped a bomb on me, baby,
you dropped abomb on me".  Big one too...

All he is doing is trolling.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Big7 said:


> Man, You are on a roll today.



Got a little riled up this morning...


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## gtparts (Feb 2, 2009)

I would like to point out that Southern Baptist churches are autonomous and that for many, if not most, the reading of scripture is not limited to a single verse. The preacher is only limited by what the Holy Spirit dictates. That one verse is the extent of scripture offered in a service is totally unfounded and whoever put this notion forth is in error.

Let there be an end to such petty squabbling.

Peace.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

gtparts said:


> I would like to point out that Southern Baptist churches are autonomous and that for many, if not most, the reading of scripture is not limited to a single verse. The preacher is only limited by what the Holy Spirit dictates. That one verse is the extent of scripture offered in a service is totally unfounded and whoever put this notion forth is in error.
> 
> Let there be an end to such petty squabbling.
> 
> Peace.



Like many on this forum I am speaking from personal experience and why I left the SB.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> How long?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Big7 said:


> You seem to do a lot of that too..
> Example: Your post # 53.
> 
> And - You did not get the jest of willie's post.
> ...



I went back and re-read Free Willie's post which was quoted in my reply #53, and I still see NO jest in Willie's post. He seems very sincere in his post about being concerned for the GON readers. 

I will need to hear from Willie as to his intent. 

Thanks for clarifying that you do not care to understand the doctrines that you reject. It will help me in my replies, if any, to you.


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## gtparts (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> If I may? If they are autonomous and the preacher is only limited by what the Holy Spirit dictates, then it is possible that only one verse could be read at service if the preacher believes that is all the Holy Spirit dictates, correct.



It is not only possible, I am sure it occurs with some regularity. To expound on one verse or many related verses depends at least in part as to the purpose of the message. Instruction on a particular area of Christian doctrine or for edification or encouragement may dictate the use of only one verse or many to impart that which God has delighted in giving us through His Word.

Truthfully, I can not remember when I last was in a worship service that only one verse was employed for God's glory and the instruction of the saints.

Peace.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I went back and re-read Free Willie's post which was quoted in my reply #53, and I still see NO jest in Willie's post. He seems very sincere in his post about being concerned for the GON readers.
> 
> I will need to hear from Willie as to his intent.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that you do not care to understand the doctrines that you reject. It will help me in my replies, if any, to you.



Nor do you understand the doctrines you reject.


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## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> So you can not answer?



answer what?  i said that i would answer you when you answer me... give me some answers and i will give you some...  this is a cat and mouse game that you catholics like to get into...  thats why i said you can have it... i dont like "games"...


----------



## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nor do you understand the doctrines you reject.



and you dont understand that justifying the papacy who killed millions of innocent people... and condemning the "just" you are an abomination unto the Lord...

Proverbs 17:15
 15He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

nor do you understand that you are helping the antichrist...


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> I was not making a joke. I have never attend a Baptist service. I was only make a guess based on what I have read about their understanding of scripture and who can interpret it.



Given your location,I knew you weren't making a joke.

Please don't form any opinions on Baptists from what you see here.Anybody - even Satan himself - can quote Scripture.
Personally,I try very hard not to form much of an opinion about a fellow man unless I've walked a few miles in his shoes.I don't always succeed in that effort!


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> I have never attend a Southern Baptist Church. What do they do? I can not imagine that with all the talk about scripture that they do not read at least whole chapters or even books at their services.
> 
> 
> I would think that all they would do is read scripture.
> ...



I can only tell you that my preacher does not "interpret" Scripture.He reads scripture [yes,sometimes quite a bit of it,to ensure that the context of the message is clear] and shows us how it applies to our lives today.I appreciate that very much.
Again - don't judge all  Baptists or any other denomination by what you read on this forum.Satan visits this forum more than you might think.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Big10point said:


> and you dont understand that justifying the papacy who killed millions of innocent people... and condemning the "just" you are an abomination unto the Lord...
> 
> Proverbs 17:15
> 15He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
> ...



Thank you for so eloquently stating my position with the anti-christ. Wow. I really feel better now.

Like RangerDave just said even the devil can quote scripture and I would urge you to reconsider your relationship with Christ. Seems as if there are some of his "suggestions" you are missing.


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Big10point said:
> 
> 
> > Hello BMPIQUE.
> ...


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 2, 2009)

Well, a lot has happened on the Hatfield and McCoy thread since I last checked it out.

After spending the last hour reading all the post that began early this morning, I can see that the great battle goes on.

I can easily see this one thing:  Big10, your opponents are still beating you up but they continue to be unable to use scripture to do it.  I've noticed that time and again you have posted points that they could have cleared up for us Bible believing Christians but they haven't done it.  Many of the points you've provided were very interesting to me.  Based on your points of discussion and their reluctance to respond directly to them, I must assume they would rather stay away from those issues.

The Catholic side has not faired well this morning.

You've spend a lot of time discussing how many verses are read in church(mass) and you've discussed the educational level of preachers and pastors.

A few weeks ago I made the comment "Many church leaders have been educated beyond their education".  Someone disagreed with that commend.
What Christians can usually expect is that the more a person IS educated in Christian ways, the futher they get from true Bible understanding.  Give me a good ol Bible reading, studying teachers any day over an institutionalized theologian.

Anyway, this entire thread needs to be deleted.

Big10Point, I disagree with your tactics, but I must admit, you do a great job of making valid points and you are willing to use scripture to back them up.  My hats off to you for standing up for the inspired word of God.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

rangerdave said:


> I can only tell you that my preacher does not "interpret" Scripture.He reads scripture [yes,sometimes quite a bit of it,to ensure that the context of the message is clear] and shows us how it applies to our lives today.I appreciate that very much.
> Again - don't judge all  Baptists or any other denomination by what you read on this forum.Satan visits this forum more than you might think.



Good post. Very true. We all tend to forget that each Church is different. Some on here obviously believe that no one besides their congregation will be in Heaven. I got a feeling they will be surprised to find out what happens with them...


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Nor do you understand the doctrines you reject.



That may be true. But I want to know and understand them. It doesn't, of course, mean that I will accept them. But I want to fully understand those things that I am critical of and accurately represent them. 

This is not what you have stated. You just don't care. Very revealing.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 2, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Well, a lot has happened on the Hatfield and McCoy thread since I last checked it out.
> 
> After spending the last hour reading all the post that began early this morning, I can see that the great battle goes on.
> 
> ...




Opps, may be a re-post.


----------



## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

Dominic said:


> Big10point,
> 
> I have answered your questions if you could revisit my earlier post please.
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=3137387&postcount=95



you have answered nothing. ex... you stated that the commandments were not numbered and cannot see how they are adding to / taking away from Scripture... you are twisting and turning as you always do... so sorry. you know the RCC takes away and add to Scripture and you have no Biblical response...


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 2, 2009)

Back on topic -  I think the "Catholic vs.Whoever" stuff has contributed greatly to this forum's bad reputation among lurkers.Certainly not much of that conflict has said anything that has a "snowball's chance in a hot place" of winning anybody to Christ,and it hasn't changed anybody's stance.I wish we had a "beating-a-dead-horse" smilie.Anybody got one that we can throw up there next time some newbies wanna start it up again?


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> That may be true. But I want to know and understand them. It doesn't, of course, mean that I will accept them. But I want to fully understand those things that I am critical of and accurately represent them.
> 
> This is not what you have stated. You just don't care. Very revealing.



Apparently you haven't read any of what I am saying. But that's OK. Go right ahead and jump off that cliff.

I know where you are coming from and I now where the Catholics are coming from. I am not a Catholic for some very very specific reasons. You don't care about those just the points I agree with them on bother you. Not sure why in this part of our country being Catholic or even studying and understanding them must mean you are not a christian and even more appalling must mean you are a cohort of the anti-Christ.

Ronnie- You and I agree on a lot of issues. The education of our church leaders is not one. But that doesn't mean that I don't believe you are a Christian. Some on here are arguing that very point. My post earlier about the education of Baptists in the past century is meant to point out where things can go wrong with this strict interpretation of the bible. How can someone preach it IF they cannot read and understand it themselves? That is akin to the muslim belief that the Quran MUST be read in arabic. Too much error can and does occur when this happens. 

All of that being said I do not believe you have a heretical view of the scriptures. I just believe you and I differ on some specific interpretative issues. Does it impact our being able to pray and worship together? Not in my honest opinion. I hope it doesn't in yours.

Now Do I believe Big10pt and Fivesolas stance on biblical doctrine to be heretical? No. Can we worship together? No. For I do not agree with their attitude toward other members of the faith. I have a serious problem with it.


----------



## gtparts (Feb 2, 2009)

Mr. Ranger,

How's this?


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Mr. Ranger,
> 
> How's this?



Perfect!


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> he was making a point about yours and big10pts posts. I for one got it. And he was right.



10-4


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

Big10point said:


> i sat in the pews of RC church for a long time and i know that they have 2 readings in the mass... thats all. no more, no less. and its only a few paragraphs... they spend the majority, 30 of their 45 minute mass, recrucifying our precious Savior, over and over and over, putting Him to a public shame... Jesus said "it is finished..."  how about reading Hebrew 6 and 7 and then come back and tell me ir we're supposed to recrucify Jesus over and over... its a hideous and disgusting tradition.
> 
> to say that they read more Scripture than other churches is a lie...  my claims of being RC for a long time do stand up b/c thats what i was... are you calling me a liar now?



Well..... You said it, not me so GO TO HERE:

http://forum.gon.com/showpost.php?p=3137387&postcount=95

Then check out the next post. If your math is still a little off
that would be # 96.


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Apparently you haven't read any of what I am saying. But that's OK. Go right ahead and jump off that cliff.
> 
> I know where you are coming from and I now where the Catholics are coming from. I am not a Catholic for some very very specific reasons. You don't care about those just the points I agree with them on bother you. Not sure why in this part of our country being Catholic or even studying and understanding them must mean you are not a christian and even more appalling must mean you are a cohort of the anti-Christ.
> 
> ...



It is entirely possible I have misunderstood your intentions in your posts. But you have made personal attacks against Big10 with no remorse. I have a serious problem with your attitude toward him, be it that he is right or wrong. 

As for the papacy being identified as the Man of Sin and very Antichrist, that is a very protestant position found in the Westminster Confession of Faith and my own, the 1689 London Baptist confession. It was the view of many of the Reformers. That can be discussed as a matter of historical fact -- because that view is in their confessions. 

If you despise that view then you have despised many of the Reformers, and possibly Protestant Christianity itself. But that may not be your view. 

I don't think anyone has to ask my view of Roman Catholic dogma and practices. NOTICE, I said their dogma and practices, NOT their persons. I do not hate or despise any particular Roman Catholic or pope or priest or bishop, et. et. 

But their doctrines I do hate. If I do believe them to be a false way, why would I not hate every false way according to the Scripture? 

"Therefore all Your precepts concerning all things I consider to be right; I hate every false way." Psalm 119:128

If a Roman Catholic believes their particular dogmas to be the very precepts of God Himself, then I would expect them to hate that which is false. It is a right-eous thing to do. 

-five


----------



## Free Willie (Feb 2, 2009)

OK..I have been staying out of this but I have been called out no less than 3 times concerning my post.

I assure you that I was merely trying to make a point. If Solas felt I was being sincere, he is dense. My 4th grade daughter knows enough about reading comprehension to have figured that out. I think you are being contrary and argumentative. I was making a point about the posts Big10 has been making. I DO NOT think that protestants are going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. I FIRMLY BELIEVE that I will be in heaven with Christians from all denominations. I also FIRMLY BELIEVE that outside of the Roman Catholic Church a Christian cannot have the fullness of what Christ gave us. 

As far as the Bible is concerned, Jesus did not write a book. He did not command the Apostles to write a book. I hold Sacred Tradition on equal ground as Sacred Scripture because I see the work of the Holy Spirit in those writings. The Word of God has always been with us, orally, before there was a thing as the Holy Bible. Jesus commanded his disciples to go and PROCLAIM the Good News. He said nothing of writing the Good News. And there were other men of God who were AWESOME thinkers and writers and examples of Christianity like Aquinas, St. Francis, St. Augustine, John Paul II, Mother Theresa, and others who offer a great wealth of knowledge. I see those on here who say Scripture is all you need but I see no evidence that you have read it completely. If you had read it and believed it, maybe you could live it. So far, not so much.

Big10...you do not proclaim the Good News. The Good News is a message of Love and you have none of that in you towards your fellow Christians who do not subscribe to YOUR BRAND of Christianity. I have can count protestants like Ravi Zaccharias, Johnny Hunt, and Andy Stanley, and Warren McGrew as friends. These are fine examples of Christians who LOVE me as a Christian brother. I do business and eat lunch with these guys and YES, they test me on my faith. And after it is over, we embrace and thank each other for the debate. They don't think I am going to he11 any more than I think that they are.

In a nutshell, I will answer questions when I have a chance but I am a busy person and God has graced me with a thriving business. I will faithfully defend my faith against all enemies. I thank God everyday that I am a Roman Catholic and thatI get to experience the Eucharist and the miracle of Transubstanciation every week. I will not be dragged into the mess some of you wish to start.

To the protestants here who are willing to debate without fighting, please continue the debate, live your lives for Christ and I will continue to pray for you all daily.

Will


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> OK..I have been staying out of this but I have been called out no less than 3 times concerning my post.
> 
> I assure you that I was merely trying to make a point. If Solas felt I was being sincere, he is dense. My 4th grade daughter knows enough about reading comprehension to have figured that out. I think you are being contrary and argumentative. I was making a point about the posts Big10 has been making. I DO NOT think that protestants are going to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. I FIRMLY BELIEVE that I will be in heaven with Christians from all denominations. I also FIRMLY BELIEVE that outside of the Roman Catholic Church a Christian cannot have the fullness of what Christ gave us.
> 
> ...




If Roman Catholics are willing to respond without personal attacks, then maybe you will earn some respect. Calling me "dense" when I take you at your word, and then comparing my intelligence to a child is an outright personal attack. And I think that is against the board rules is it not?????

Now, if you want to civil debate with me you will have to demonstrate you can discuss and debate without personally attacking your opponent. Otherwise...talk to the hand...


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Still doesn't make it right, regardless of where it says those things.



Disagreeing and debate and discussion is what this forum is about.


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> And you have proof of what is said in that confession above?  Supporting evidence?  Not hearsay, conjecture, nor opinions to support it?



I could produce several threads on the subject. But first, why did you find my previous reply calling the other user out for their personal attack of me funny?


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 2, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> that outside of the Roman Catholic Church a Christian cannot have the fullness of what Christ gave us.


 
Let me preface my comment by saying, I have many Christian Brothers, that are Catholic, many of whom are on this board.

I just don't understand this comment...

How do you know your "fullness" is any better than my "fullness"?

and how do you know that we(protestant's) can't have "fullness"?

Please give me your opinion, I am not looking for an explaination that is 40 pages long...

This is not an attack, just a question...

DB BB


----------



## Big10point (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> OK, no offense, but 1st you said something about being compared to a child, then use the childish term of "talk to the hand."  It was just a little ironic.
> 
> And in defense of freewillie, when I first read his post, I was thinking he must be joking.  Then his 2nd post verified he was making a point.  Yes, it is offensive for people to say the Pope is the Anti-Christ, the devil or a satanist.  It is an unsubtantiated claim and does nothing but foment hatred.  No worse than ethnic slurs.
> 
> You guys that are SO WELL VERSED in th eBIble, should read it a little closer, as it says the Anti-Christ will deny Jesus's death and resurrection, which the Pope has never denied.



dawg2,

the definition of "anti" is:

Anti - Meaning and Definition
A prefix meaning against, opposite or opposed to, contrary, _*or in place of*_; 

did u catch that?  "in place of..."  what does the pope claim to be?


"Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateran Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (Sacrorum Conciliorum, J.D. Mansi (ed.), Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart).


     "To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." The Gloss of Extravagantes of Pope John XXII, Cum. Inter, title 14, chapter 4, "Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium", Column 140, Paris, 1685. (In an Antwerp edition of the Extravagantes, the words, "Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam" (“Our Lord God the Pope”) can be found in column 153).


     "It is quite certain that Popes have never disapproved or rejected this title 'Lord God the Pope' for the passage in the gloss referred to appears in the edition of the Canon Law published in Rome by Gregory XIII." Statement from Fr. A. Pereira.


     "Those whom the Pope of Rome doth separate, it is not a man that separates them but God. For the Pope holdeth place on earth, not simply of a man but of the true God....dissolves, not by human but rather by divine authority....I am in all and above all, so that God Himself and I, the vicar of God, hath both one consistory, and I am able to do almost all that God can do...wherefore, if those things that I do be said not to be done of man, but of God, what do you make of me but God?  Again, if prelates of the Church be called of Constantine for gods, I then being above all prelates, seem by this reason to be above all gods." Decretales Domini Gregori ix Translatione Episcoporum, (on the Transference of Bishops), title 7, chapter 3; Corpus Juris Canonice (2nd Leipzig ed., 1881), col. 99; (Paris, 1612), tom. 2, Decretales, col. 205 (while Innocent III was Pope).


     "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth...by divine right the Pope has supreme and full power in faith, in morals over each and every pastor and his flock. He is the true vicar, the head of the entire church, the father and teacher of all Christians. He is the infallible ruler, the founder of dogmas, the author of and the judge of councils; the universal ruler of truth, the arbiter of the world, the supreme judge of heaven and earth, the judge of all, being judged by no one, God himself on earth." Quoted in the New York Catechism.


     "The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God...
     "The Pope alone is called most holy...
     "Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.
     "Moreover the superiority and the power of the Roman Pontiff by no means pertains only to heavenly things, but also earthly things, and to things under the earth, and even over the angels, whom he his greater than.
     "So that if it were possible that the angels might err in the faith, or might think contrary to the faith, they could be judged and excommunicated by the Pope....
     "...the Pope is as it were God on earth, sole sovereign of the faithful of Christ, chief of kings, having plenitude of power." Lucius Ferraris, in "Prompta Bibliotheca Canonica, Juridica, Moralis, Theologica, Ascetica, Polemica, Rubristica, Historica", Volume V, article on "Papa, Article II", titled "Concerning the extent of Papal dignity, authority, or dominion and infallibility", #1, 5, 13-15, 18, published in Petit-Montrouge (Paris) by J. P. Migne, 1858 edition.


      "[Pope] PIUS XI, Pontifex Maximus." Pope Pius XI, Mortalium Animos (The Promotion of True Religious Unity), Encyclical promulgated on January 6, 1928.
http://www.catholicism.org/pages/mortal.htm


     "The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous".


     “...We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty..." Pope Leo XIII, in Praeclara Gratulationis Publicae (The Reunion of Christendom), Encyclical promulgated on June 20, 1894.
http://www.users.qwest.net/~slrorer/ReunionOfChristendom.htm

The Pope is Christ's  Replacement (Vicar or Vicegerent) on Earth


     "The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land....He is the vicegerent of Christ, and is not only a priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords." La Civilta Cattolica, March 18, 1871 (quoted in "An Inside View of the Vatican Council" by Leonard Woosely Bacaon, p 229, American Tract Society edition).


     "We the Archbishops and Bishops of Ireland, prostrate at the feet of your Holiness, humbly offer you our warmest congratulations on the occasion of the Golden Jubilee of your ordination to the priesthood...our thoughts go back to that great event fifty years ago by which your Holiness was taken from amongst men and appointed for men in the things that pertain to God, was made a minister of Christ and a dispenser of His mysteries, received power over the real and mystical body of our Saviour and became a mediator between God and man - another Christ." Address of Irish Archbishops and Bishops to Pope Pius Xll, in 1949.


     "Receive the tiara adorned with three crowns and know that thou art Father of princes and kings, Ruler of the world, Vicar of our Savior Jesus Christ." Papal Coronation Ceremony.


     “All the names which are attributed to Christ in Scripture, implying His supremacy over the church, are also attributed to the Pope.” Robert Bellarmine, in Disputationes de Controversiis, "On the Authority of Councils", book 2, Chapter 17.


     "...we promulgate anew the definition of the ecumenical council of Florence, which must be believed by all faithful Christians, namely that the apostolic see and the Roman pontiff hold a world-wide primacy, and that the Roman pontiff is the successor of blessed Peter, the prince of the apostles, true vicar of Christ, head of the whole church and father and teacher of all christian people. To him, in blessed Peter, full power has been given by our lord Jesus Christ to tend, rule and govern the universal church....
     "So, then, if anyone says that the Roman pontiff...has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema." Pope Pius IX, in First Vatican Council, Session 4, First Dogmatic Constitution on the Church of Christ, Chapter 3, #1, 9, July 18, 1870.
http://www.piar.hu/councils/ecum20.htm

     "The Pope is not only the representative of Jesus Christ, he is Jesus Christ himself, hidden under the veil of flesh." Catholic National, July, 1895.

that is why all of the reformers, all the saints who have been persecuted by the false "vicar", many Protestants and many Baptists today believe the pope to be, at a minimum, an anti-christ...


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> OK, no offense, but 1st you said something about being compared to a child, then use the childish term of "talk to the hand."  It was just a little ironic.
> 
> And in defense of freewillie, when I first read his post, I was thinking he must be joking.  Then his 2nd post verified he was making a point.  Yes, it is offensive for people to say the Pope is the Anti-Christ, the devil or a satanist.  It is an unsubtantiated claim and does nothing but foment hatred.  No worse than ethnic slurs.
> 
> You guys that are SO WELL VERSED in th eBIble, should read it a little closer, as it says the Anti-Christ will deny Jesus's death and resurrection, which the Pope has never denied.



I missed the connection then between his posts. Oh well. 

What verse are you referring to that says the antichrist will deny Jesus's death and resurrection....?


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> OK, no offense, but 1st you said something about being compared to a child, then use the childish term of "talk to the hand."  It was just a little ironic.
> 
> And in defense of freewillie, when I first read his post, I was thinking he must be joking.  Then his 2nd post verified he was making a point.  Yes, it is offensive for people to say the Pope is the Anti-Christ, the devil or a satanist.  It is an unsubtantiated claim and does nothing but foment hatred.  No worse than ethnic slurs.
> 
> You guys that are SO WELL VERSED in th eBIble, should read it a little closer, as it says the Anti-Christ will deny Jesus's death and resurrection, which the Pope has never denied.





No you didn't just quote the bible did you???


----------



## crackerdave (Feb 2, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Mr. Ranger,
> 
> How's this?



Mr.GT,

That's the one! 

What's the procedure for nomination of a new smilie,Mods? Maybe make the "beating a dead horse" one the exclusive property of this particular forum.


----------



## Free Willie (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> 1 John 2
> 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
> 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
> 
> ...



Dawg...aren't you Catholic? What are you doing quoting Scripture?


----------



## Free Willie (Feb 2, 2009)

I still want to know where you got the statistics on the millions of people murdered by the Catholic Church and the millions of children molested by the Catholic clergy. Big10 threw those statistics out there and 150 posts later, he has not listed one source or responded to this question. In a court of law he would be found guilty of slander and libel. 

What are your sources? Celtic gave you examples of several acts of genocide by protestants but you have only been able to use the tired old "Inquisition" story, of which, it is historicaly been proven that less than 4000 people were killed over a 300 year period. 300 years. 13 people a year for 300 years.

Now, those sources, please.


----------



## jawja_peach (Feb 2, 2009)

*Oh yes!! It is possible!!*



gtparts said:


> It is not only possible, I am sure it occurs with some regularity. To expound on one verse or many related verses depends at least in part as to the purpose of the message. Instruction on a particular area of Christian doctrine or for edification or encouragement may dictate the use of only one verse or many to impart that which God has delighted in giving us through His Word.
> 
> Truthfully, I can not remember when I last was in a worship service that only one verse was employed for God's glory and the instruction of the saints.
> 
> Peace.




 YES MY FRIENDS IT IS POSSIBLE!!! BUT THE THING ABOUT IT IS THIS....YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE SPIRIT OF GOD IN IT FOR IT TO BE A TRUE EXPERIANCE.

Some of you do not believe that the Holy Spirit abides in the hearts of those that saved. I do, and in fact will tell y'all this first off. Every thing I'm about to write are things I've seen, experienced, felt, and know to be true. Now I know there are many who will doubt and/or not believe and that's fine. Just  please have respect to my answer to this, and I will be happy to answer any question that is sincere. And this would be a great place to stop reading and go on to another comment because I am going to talk about my God and my experiances with Him.... I hope you stay but I really don't want to offend you.

My hubby is a Baptist Preacher. He is a tool for God and is very humble and doesn't like to step up to the pulpit not  one bit. Why?? Because of the responsibility of that sacred position. He will NOT preach anything that is NOT biblical. 
((Anyone who runs in wanting to preach worries me.)) I have been in church, before any service and talked to those that were there. We hardly talk about much else besides God, because most of them leave their worldly cares at the door, and bring the Holy Spirit in with them. Sometimes it's not this way, and I've seen a service hendered because of such. But oh, once Sunday school has started, a verse read, or a prayer said, then the Spirit is let out by praise and prayer....and the flow beginnes. By flow I mean the Spirit is honoring those that are there and are Saved, you can feel it. People will start praising God, Singing songs that touch others hearts, and they start praising, Testifing, shout'n!! _All this is of God, and if it wasn't, you can pretty tell that its not because the Spirit won't honor it, and no one else will feel it._ But I've seen many, including my hubby, that will get up to preach and say, " Ya know....God has moved already. We have felt His Spirit and I can't add anything to what He has already done." Now some will say, he just wanted to get outta preaching. That's not the case...Not in the services I've been in... When you honor the Spirit of God and do what He bids, there is not a limit to what can happen. Anywhere. 

I thank God for sending Jesus, and I Praise Him for Saving my unworthy soul. It's sad that there are those that haven't experienced the things I have as far as miracles. And see that *'THERE IS A TRUE GOD, SON, SPIRIT AND THERE IS ALSO Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.'* I feel bad for those that don't believe. I wish I could say one thing that would at least just ***** a heart just enough that the unbeliever would just honestly listen to a 'real' Christian, and for a few moments forget everything else...Now please y'all, this is straight from my heart. Don't  for telling you my feelings as I'm NOT pushing them on anyone. It's just, like I said, I wish everyone for just a little while could experience what I have/do as being a child of God. No doctrine, no fuss'n,  just an experience one on one with God. And too all y'all non-believers who are shaken their head at me, it's OK. This is my outlook on that...what I tell those I personally know...Say if God really doesn't exist..(but He does) what's so bad about it? As I've said before...I would hate to know that I was just here to live and die, and nothing more. That I was an accident from a cosmic bang. I'm sure bang'n took place, but it wasn't a cosmic one...lol... But in what purpose would we have?? So, I hope I haven't offended anyone, as that was not my intent. If I have I apologize. Have a great week my friends....


----------



## earl (Feb 2, 2009)

Willie, if you check most threads he has posted in you will find that you can't back him into a corner . He will either just not respond or try to dazzle you with Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. Any one that scorns education cannot provide any intelligent answers.


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## fivesolas (Feb 2, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> 1 John 2
> 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
> 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
> 
> ...



These verses are not speaking of the Man of Sin or THE antichrist. These verses are speaking of the spirit of antichrist. 



> 2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 (King James Version)
> 
> 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
> 
> ...



This is probably the most clear Scripture dealing with THE antichrist and not an antichrist(ian) spirit.


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 2, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> I still want to know where you got the statistics on the millions of people murdered by the Catholic Church and the millions of children molested by the Catholic clergy. Big10 threw those statistics out there and 150 posts later, he has not listed one source or responded to this question. In a court of law he would be found guilty of slander and libel.
> 
> What are your sources? Celtic gave you examples of several acts of genocide by protestants but you have only been able to use the tired old "Inquisition" story, of which, it is historicaly been proven that less than 4000 people were killed over a 300 year period. 300 years. 13 people a year for 300 years.
> 
> Now, those sources, please.


Willie,

If you cloud it with facts they might lose the "WORD"!


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> I still want to know where you got the statistics on the millions of people murdered by the Catholic Church and the millions of children molested by the Catholic clergy. Big10 threw those statistics out there and 150 posts later, he has not listed one source or responded to this question. In a court of law he would be found guilty of slander and libel.
> 
> What are your sources? Celtic gave you examples of several acts of genocide by protestants but you have only been able to use the tired old "Inquisition" story, of which, it is historicaly been proven that less than 4000 people were killed over a 300 year period. 300 years. 13 people a year for 300 years.
> 
> Now, those sources, please.



Willie - 

I know you already know most of this, for the rest
that are interested in a A CHRISTIAN CRIMELINE
GO HERE:
http://www.barossa-region.org/Australia/23-A-CHRISTIAN-CRIMELINE.html#

You will need to allow the "active x control" to run, 
if you do not already have it on your computer.

Also at the first part you will be given an option
to "skip this advertisement" - just check the box
and you will go to the timeline.

Look and see EXACTLY who did what.

Read Up!


----------



## Big7 (Feb 2, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I went back and re-read Free Willie's post which was quoted in my reply #53, and I still see NO jest in Willie's post. He seems very sincere in his post about being concerned for the GON readers.
> 
> I will need to hear from Willie as to his intent.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that you do not care to understand the doctrines that you reject. It will help me in my replies, if any, to you.





celticfisherman said:


> Nor do you understand the doctrines you reject.





fivesolas said:


> That may be true. But I want to know and understand them. It doesn't, of course, mean that I will accept them. But I want to fully understand those things that I am critical of and accurately represent them.
> This is not what you have stated. You just don't care. Very revealing.



Alrighty then.

A good place for you to start would be HERE:
http://www.ancient-future.net/basics.html

That is if you "want to know and understand them",
as you state above.


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 3, 2009)

Big7 said:


> Alrighty then.
> 
> A good place for you to start would be HERE:
> http://www.ancient-future.net/basics.html
> ...



Thanks. Nothing new there that I didn't know. Do you think I have misrepresented Roman Catholicism in some way? If so, how?

Edited in: 



> Catholics hold the Bible in high regard as the word of God and cannot teach contrary to the Bible's Teachings. For information about interpreting the Bible



This have not heard a Roman Catholic say before. Please clarify.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 3, 2009)

five -

Clarify what?

I am not a mind reader.
If you would like for me to answer a question, ask one.

If I do not know the answer, I probably know someone that does.

Warning: I do not type very fast.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 3, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Let me preface my comment by saying, I have many Christian Brothers, that are Catholic, many of whom are on this board.
> 
> I just don't understand this comment...
> 
> ...


 

reposting question that probably got lost...

DB BB


----------



## fivesolas (Feb 3, 2009)

Big7 said:


> five -
> 
> Clarify what?
> 
> ...



Can you comment on the quote? I find it odd that you point me to a website that is supposed to teach me accurately about Roman Catholicism but you can't comment on the quote? I am not picking on you here, but c'mon. 

And I asked if you thought I misrepresented Roman Catholic belief and if so how. 

-five


----------



## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> reposting question that probably got lost...
> 
> DB BB



I heard it explained on time that Catholics have the entire pie of faith. Protestants have a slice of the pie. That does not mean that the slice is not truly pie and that it changes to something else when it is removed from the pie dish.

Catholics believe that they hold the pie in the Scripture, Traditions, and Teachings of the Church. We only hold a piece of it. But that piece is still truth. It is still part of Christianity but that since we do not have the rest we do no experience the full blessings of Faith.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 3, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> reposting question that probably got lost...
> 
> DB BB



What up?

I already responded to this same question from you
in another thread. Remember?

You can, or I will go back through my "show post"
when I get a second and try to find it.


----------



## Big7 (Feb 3, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Can you comment on the quote? I find it odd that you point me to a website that is supposed to teach me accurately about Roman Catholicism but you can't comment on the quote? I am not picking on you here, but c'mon.
> 
> And I asked if you thought I misrepresented Roman Catholic belief and if so how.
> 
> -five



Short answer is:
I don't know your intent, so I wont comment on
if your mis-representations were malicious or not.

I will have to go back to re-read some post'
in order to address the "how so" part.

Off to work. 

See you guy's this afternoon.


----------



## Double Barrel BB (Feb 3, 2009)

Big7 said:


> What up?
> 
> I already responded to this same question from you
> in another thread. Remember?
> ...


 
Hey Dude!!!

It is the old age!!!

I think I remember something, about it... I guess my ADD might be showing too... 

DB BB


----------



## christianhunter (Feb 3, 2009)

earl said:


> Yes it's getting us somewhere. The manner in which one handles their self in the p/c debate tells nonbelievers a lot about that person AND their religion. IMO



I think it was Catholics and Protestants,not atheists.You are here because the evil one sends you here to stir up strife.Thats all!
You are never here to have a legit discussion,only to try and get believers,who are also human to fall,if you press the wrong button.You are doing the bidding of the devil,and he is using you like a puppet.


----------



## earl (Feb 3, 2009)

And you are a self proclaimed book burner. No wonder you cant read. p/c is short for protestant /catholic. No where on this forum or any where else have I ever claimed to be an atheist. Evidently you have had your button pressed pretty good. Are you scared ?


----------



## Jeffriesw (Feb 3, 2009)

earl said:


> And you are a self proclaimed book burner. No wonder you cant read. p/c is short for protestant /catholic. No where on this forum or any where else have I ever claimed to be an atheist. Evidently you have had your button pressed pretty good. Are you scared ?





Book Burner?


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## fivesolas (Feb 3, 2009)

Big7 said:


> What up?
> 
> I already responded to this same question from you
> in another thread. Remember?
> ...



Sounds like a dodge to me...

But, you posted a link to a Roman Catholic website that you said describes your beliefs. I took a quote from it and asked for an explaination of it. What I quoted in my reply was from the site you shared. 

So, I am not sure where the confusion is.


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## fivesolas (Feb 3, 2009)

christianhunter said:


> I think it was Catholics and Protestants,not atheists.You are here because the evil one sends you here to stir up strife.Thats all!
> You are never here to have a legit discussion,only to try and get believers,who are also human to fall,if you press the wrong button.You are doing the bidding of the devil,and he is using you like a puppet.



In the spirit of fairness, I have not had that impression of earl.


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## earl (Feb 3, 2009)

Swamp , that is in reference to another thread . There may be books that need to be destroyed but when you take them out on your driveway and make a ceremony out of burning them you are WRONG !


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## celticfisherman (Feb 3, 2009)

earl said:


> Swamp , that is in reference to another thread . There may be books that need to be destroyed but when you take them out on your driveway and make a ceremony out of burning them you are WRONG !



Agreed...


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## crackerdave (Feb 3, 2009)

WAY  
Question was about Catholic vs. Protestant foolishness and whether it's getting us anywhere.Obviously not.


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## crackerdave (Feb 3, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Cracker.



Peckerwood!


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## Big7 (Feb 3, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Sounds like a dodge to me...
> 
> But, you posted a link to a Roman Catholic website that you said describes your beliefs. I took a quote from it and asked for an explaination of it. What I quoted in my reply was from the site you shared.
> 
> So, I am not sure where the confusion is.



NEVER will get a "dodge" out of me.

As to your "This have not heard a Roman Catholic say before. Please clarify." part. Now you have. So, now what... 

If you are asking if I stand by the site I linked you to,
I do.


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## SBG (Feb 4, 2009)

Dominic said:


> If I may? If they are autonomous and the preacher is only limited by what the Holy Spirit dictates, then it is possible that only one verse could be read at service if the preacher believes that is all the Holy Spirit dictates, correct.



I know this question was not posed to me-but let me respond to it and may be able to clarify a possible misunderstanding:

I am not Southern Baptist, but have attended many services there and have many kin that are. It is correct that there may be only one verse read during a preacher's sermon if that is how the Holy Spirit leads. The Word of God is able to lead one to the Saviour without a man. 

 You need to understand that most Baptist churches also have Sunday school, Sunday night services, Wednesday night services, admonitions to have personal Bible reading/study, CTS/AWANA etc. 

Hope this helps.


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## Free Willie (Feb 4, 2009)

SBG said:


> You need to understand that most Baptist churches also have Sunday school, Sunday night services, Wednesday night services, admonitions to have personal Bible reading/study, CTS/AWANA etc.
> 
> Hope this helps.



OK...during my short 7 years spent going to Baptist Churches with my wife, I can tell you that only a small fraction of the total Sunday service goers went to Sunday school, Sunday night services, Wednesday night services, admonitions, CTS/AWANAS etc.

Most of my 7 years was spent going to Six Flags Over Jesus AKA First Baptist Woodstock..


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## Ronnie T (Feb 4, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> OK...during my short 7 years spent going to Baptist Churches with my wife, I can tell you that only a small fraction of the total Sunday service goers went to Sunday school, Sunday night services, Wednesday night services, admonitions, CTS/AWANAS etc.
> 
> Most of my 7 years was spent going to Six Flags Over Jesus AKA First Baptist Woodstock..




Isn't it the same in the Catholic church?

I bet it is.


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## SBG (Feb 4, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> OK...during my short 7 years spent going to Baptist Churches with my wife, I can tell you that only a small fraction of the total Sunday service goers went to Sunday school, Sunday night services, Wednesday night services, admonitions, CTS/AWANAS etc.



Those who choose for whatever reason not to participate in all of the opportunities that are available to worship and fellowship are only cheating themselves out of extra blessings. It is sad that there are many that do not avail themselves to the full ministry of the local church. In all honesty, I have been guilty of that myself.

Thank God for grace.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it the same in the Catholic church?
> 
> I bet it is.



From my experience yes but also that is why there is so much in the sunday services.


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## Free Willie (Feb 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Isn't it the same in the Catholic church?
> 
> I bet it is.



Yes sir, you'd be right. But we were talking about exposure to Scripture in the main service.



SBG said:


> Those who choose for whatever reason not to participate in all of the opportunities that are available to worship and fellowship are only cheating themselves out of extra blessings. It is sad that there are many that do not avail themselves to the full ministry of the local church. In all honesty, I have been guilty of that myself.
> 
> Thank God for grace.



Sadly, I am also guilty of this. Lucky for me, my wife is a part time teacher at a Catholic School and she takes the kids to MAss 3 times a week and to Adoration once a week. They also go to youth once a week and a Bible study for teens once a week. 

Thank the Lord for a good wife. 

I work a lot but I also use that as an excuse.

I'm gonna burn.


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 4, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> Thank the Lord for a good wife.
> 
> I work a lot but I also use that as an excuse.





Willie, I think alot of us would have to plead the fifth on that one


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## Ronnie T (Feb 4, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> From my experience yes but also that is why there is so much in the sunday services.




Where I preach our worship time on the Lord's Day is 10:30 until 11:30.  In my mind, that time is not a time to learn the Bible.  It is for praising God, a time for joining our hearts together in prayer, several prayers.  It is for taking the Lord's supper/communion.  It is a time for joining our voices and hearts together as we sing spiritual songs that praise God, thank God, and strength/admonish us.  Those are the primary things that occur during worship service.  

Additionally, I present a sermon(25 minutes).  This sermon is not a Bible class.  Bible class is from 9:30 till 10:45; and another one Sunday evening; and another one on Wednesday night.

The sermon is meant to bring God to those present.  To allow them to recommit and refocus.  To help them see God's workings in their lives.  To help them better see God's great blessing to each of His children.  The sermon is also to help urge people into accepting Jesus as their Savior.

Those who only come to worship time, are not going to become Biblical scholars.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Feb 4, 2009)

SBG said:


> This has been debated for centuries and we will not come up with the answers here.
> 
> For the sake of everyone, can we agree to disagree and move on?


 

Fine by me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,good luck with the hardliners though.

They are the only correct ones, you know..


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## SBG (Feb 4, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> Thank the Lord for a good wife.




Amen to that. Thank the Lord for Godly wives and mamas.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Where I preach our worship time on the Lord's Day is 10:30 until 11:30.  In my mind, that time is not a time to learn the Bible.  It is for praising God, a time for joining our hearts together in prayer, several prayers.  It is for taking the Lord's supper/communion.  It is a time for joining our voices and hearts together as we sing spiritual songs that praise God, thank God, and strength/admonish us.  Those are the primary things that occur during worship service.
> 
> Additionally, I present a sermon(25 minutes).  This sermon is not a Bible class.  Bible class is from 9:30 till 10:45; and another one Sunday evening; and another one on Wednesday night.
> 
> ...



I understand Ronnie. But this goes to the difference of reasons behind worship. To the protestant it is to gather together and worship and hear a sermon. To a member of the RCC and Anglican traditions it is to gather together and take communion. Not saying either is right or wrong but there is a major difference in the purpose of the service.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 4, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I understand Ronnie. But this goes to the difference of reasons behind worship. To the protestant it is to gather together and worship and hear a sermon. To a member of the RCC and Anglican traditions it is to gather together and take communion. Not saying either is right or wrong but there is a major difference in the purpose of the service.




For us also, the primary purpose for being there on the Lord's day is to share in the taking of communion.  Some think we're weird for taking communion every week.


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## PWalls (Feb 4, 2009)

SBG said:


> I am not Southern Baptist,



WHAT????!!!!!

I thought SBG stood for "Southern Baptist Guru".


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## SBG (Feb 5, 2009)

PWalls said:


> WHAT????!!!!!
> 
> I thought SBG stood for "Southern Baptist Guru".




Nah...I'm one of those Indy Fundies that everyone despises.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> For us also, the primary purpose for being there on the Lord's day is to share in the taking of communion.  Some think we're weird for taking communion every week.



I sure don't think you are weird. 

And not to continue too far down this  but their communion lasts 30 mins and the homily is around 10-15. Which quite frankly I like because I can remember it... I have AD..... Oh look a chicken...


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 5, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> I sure don't think you are weird.
> 
> And not to continue too far down this  but their communion lasts 30 mins and the homily is around 10-15. Which quite frankly I like because I can remember it... I have AD..... Oh look a chicken...


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