# Pictures through a bore scope



## Cknerr

This conversation got started in another thread. Since a bore scope is more a gunsmithing tool, decided to post pics here.

The question was asked how to tell what is going on in a barrel. I factory doesn't look any differant then a very pricey after market one. Looking down a bore with a naked eye is hard. Using a bore scope is very illuminating. I tried to get some differant shots through mine. Holding the camera up to the apeture is not the best way as you can see.

Bore scopes are a collector's worse nightmare and a gunsmith's best friend. Judgeing what is really bad and something that will have no effect is hard. As things show up in shop, I'll come back to this thread and post more picture to build up a library.

The instrument:






This is a Bench rest barrel with 1200 or so rounds through it (not the best focus - I'll try it again): 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




There is a problem, heat cracking. The streaks are copper filling in some rough spots (throat area of the BR rifle) this barrel is ready for a set back or replacement:





If you are one of those types that continueally overheat your barrel, this is what it looks like. The heat cracking started as shown above. The fellow kept going and the cracks enlarged, met, and pieces of the rifling edges flaked off. Looks like he wasn't too attentative to cleaning the bore either. This barrel is trashed:





Very typical machining marks. These marks can be helped by "breaking in the barrel". Remember breaking in a barrel is only filling the potholes with some copper. The yellow pollen looking dots is dust. Been awhile since it was cleaned. The barrel still has a lot of life left.





and this is not out of reason, Shows machine marks an some damage from grit/dust getting scraped down the barrel.  Clean you rifle before you shoot!  The dark spot is powder residue. There is a little life left, not much though.





I'll add to this in the next few days. Might have a barrel that has never been shot. Have to dig it up.

Take care,
Chris


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## Turkey Comander

I asked a Gunsmith friend about using his bore scope to look down the barrel of an 1850's 10 ga. SxS  muzzleloader I had....his comment was "if you looked you'd probably never shoot it again".

So I didn't look.


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## seaweaver

Cool.
Butttt as you mentioned...I'd hate to look down my guns!
What year is that barrel?
cw


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## no clever name

Very cool, thanks for posting.  

If you have time over the holidays I've got three of the same brand rifles that I think would make a good comparison.  Two haven't been fired since leaving the factory, one has a standard barrel, the other has their hand lapped target barrel.  The one that's been fired (approx 300 rounds) has a standard heavy barrel.

I would be interested to see if the hand lapped version is different from the standard ones.  Send me a pm if you're interested.


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## jglenn

BIG difference between a custom hand lapped barrel such as shilen, Krieger or lilja. Mainly in the throat and lands

great video from lilja looking through a scope

http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Lilja_BoreScope_VID.wmv



nice photos Cknerr


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## Cknerr

@ Seaweaver, BR barrel is now a tomato stake in competition terms. The damage in throat from heat cracking is hurting accuracy. It has one year's worth of competition on it. The practice barrel.....I'll leave to your imagination. It ain't pretty.

The really destroyed barrel was a customer's. Claims it is only 3 months old. Could be, but who knows.  Firing strings of 5 or 6 shots and not letting it cool down will do this every time and very fast! You should always be able to keep you hand on the barrel. Might be a bit unpleasant, but still be able to keep flesh to metal. That tends to limit strings to 3 or 4 in the summer, 4 or 5 in the winter.

The first pictures of machining marks is from a 222 Bull barrel Sako Vixen. It dates back to the 60's (Garcia?)The second picture of machining marks has a real story. It is a 22lr Anshutz target rifle with over 1/4 million rounds through it! Certainly destroys the idea that lead bullets can burnish steel. It still shoots 1" groups at 100 yards.

@Turkeycommander-he is likely right. It will look worse then any of the pictures I posted. Could still be shootable though...sure don't want to look at it! He is use to looking at it and can interpreter what he sees with his stomach trying to empty.

@Jglenn - thanks for the link. That does help explain a lot. The first pic is a Shilen barrel. Lilja/Shilen/Hart/etc. is like arguing Ford vs Chevy. The hand lapping really makes a lot of difference. Wish I could get the picture in focus.

@No clever name - sent you a PM. Hand lapping makes a huge difference. Very time consuming and hard on joints with all the repetitive motions. Can understand some of the expense in those barrels since I am sure they don't work for minimum wage. That link from Jglenn certainly shows that.

Be posting more as I get something worth seeing.
Chris


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## rocinante

Hey Chris I talked to the folks I got that barrel from that was suppose to be new and they said they came from the manufacturer like that. Others have said it is not unheard of for a military barrel to have a few rounds put down it in the factory to satisfy some proof and contract obligations.


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## olchevy

Awesome this was exactly what I was looking for on the whole barrel thing, thanks.this gives me a better idea of whats going on in there


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## olchevy

jglenn said:


> BIG difference between a custom hand lapped barrel such as shilen, Krieger or lilja. Mainly in the throat and lands
> 
> great video from lilja looking through a scope
> 
> http://www.6mmbr.citymaker.com/f/Lilja_BoreScope_VID.wmv
> 
> 
> 
> nice photos Cknerr



Dang that is a huge difference!


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## jglenn

actually it's sort of amazing to me that you can get a SS Shilen threaded and 90% chambered for a Rem 700 for around $270 for quite a few of the more common calibers. just the process the custom barrel makers go through to set the barrel up for chambering and then all the hand lapping... lot's of time and attention to detail,  not something the major rifle makers will do.



 Chris ... Shilen is what we prefer most of the time


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## Cknerr

Jglenn, I noticed I tend to go in Shilen's direction myself too. Got to admit, if a Shilen/Lilja/Hart/Kregof  where laid side by side and not labeled- probably would have a lot of trouble telling them apart. 

Decisions, Decisions....

One of the things often discussed when talking about barrels was not who did what....it was the who got the best alloy. There are tiny differences in batches from the steel companies. Discussion was coming around to what mattered most was who had the best steel.  The top barrel makers all do such fantastic work, this seemed to be the only thing they couldn't control....'course, they all got the same steel.

Chris


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## miles58

Chris,

Thanks for posting this.  I have been back and forth a number of times about looking down my barrels with a scope.

The thing that stopped me is that I wouldn't know what to do about what I saw.  I think it probably would take quite a while to learn how to interpret what you see well enough to make good use of it for someone who just reloads and shoots.  Obviously, in the case of the cooked barrel that's a no brainer.  What do you do in the case of much more normal barrels though, that'd be hard to figure out.  

I guess that maybe being able to right off the bat decide that some barrels were not worth messing with would be good, but the vast majority of barrels probably are in the middle I would think and I can see a lot of time going south trying to lear how to make sense of what you see.

Dave


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## NOYDB

Thank you for posting the pics.


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## Cknerr

*More pictures*

These might shed a bit more light on things. Learning how to use the camera, so these might be easier to figure out. These are taken through a 4X Hawkeye bore scope and the camera magnification cranked up as high as it will go. If I don't use the zoom, the pictures are so small, you can't make anything out.

Chamber reamers. 7mm Mag with a 7mm range rod. I always use one to align the bore with center of my lathe's rotating center. BTW, that is DUST, not rust on the flutes!





where the case mouth ends (never shot):





Rifling begins:






This is copper build up in a rough barrel. It has smoothed out the bore a lot and accuracy improved with the proper beak in. Winchester 270 chrome moly barrel (pre-64) it might be a little too much and some should be removed. This is why I was looking at it.





This is pretty standard looking. Correctly broken in, bullets and bore cleaned to make no grit scoring, cleaned correctly (not over done).





Now for troubles - 

Found this is a customer's rifle. Bad reamer, it has a chip knocked out where the mouth of the case is suppose to end.  This will give reloaders fits! This is right at the mouth of the cartridge. The extra ridge will dent the lip of the cartridge so you can never get the darn thing flat, level, etc.






Rust pocket in 45 cal muzzle loader:





Rifling tooling problems. Lapping did not cure it. The land gets thin in the middle. Not a fish eye effect of the lenses.





Better picture of fire cracking in throat





oops, something wasn't right with the lap I made. It didn't get into rifleing. Needs to be redone with a correctly made lap. (good thing I had the scope to find it)





..and the reward. While looking over the barrels I had laying around. Found this - a swamped Whitworth!  Had no idea it was there. This will be getting some TLC for sure. Wonder what to make it into?  Could swear it didn't look that dusty when I took the picture last night....guess the camera doesn't lie.






Take care,
Chris


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## Cknerr

Miles58,
Your right, if it shoots as expected then it is not worth scoping.

If it doesn't cooperate, then the reason for bad behaviour can usually be found. The repair will hopefully cost less then a replacement. Procedures such as "Setting back" a barrel can cure a lot of problems. (cutting an inch or so off the chambered end of the barrel and rechambering/threading)

I'm hoping the pictures help educate. Barrel break-in, overheating/cooking barrel, factory vs. after market bores, hot loads (heat cracking in throat) to name a few. This might save some one an expensive visit to their gunsmith. (so please ignore all this?   )

Trying to get pictures of the muzzle. Because of the depth of field, can't get anything yet that makes sense. I'll keep trying though.

Take care,
Chris


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## jglenn

I like your choice of rod and reamer too.......


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## mike bell

I read a good article on barrels in the Rifle Magazine I think was.  (it was in the bathroom at the hunting club)

 Intresting write up on the break in verses not breaking in debate.  From what I read most problems are at the throat area. And barrels chamberd with free floating pilots tend to have less issues.  And he talked about the lapping process to get rid of the burs on the rifling and stuff.

 He also discussed cleaning between shot groups. He talked to somebody at a reloading manufacture to talk about group sizes and cleaning during testing.  They said most barrels and bullets shoot the same size groups weither they were cleaned after each group or 300 rounds.

He also talked about Moly coated bullets also.  Aparently theres a reason behind that theory and why ammo makers are slowly getting rid of those products as well.

It was a good read and I'll have to find out what month it was and post it.

One question remains, has any manufacture taken ten off the shelf barrels and "Broke them in" and compaired them to 10 off the self ones that have not?  Aparently not because theres not much difference between group sizes shooting the same ammo in a controlled setting.   At least according to the author. 

 And like I said, it was a good read and food for thought.


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