# I have a hard time with this



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

As a Christian I have a very hard time comprehending the banality of the evil the video in this story portrays.

http://indyhiphop.com/2324667/2-kids-die-in-house-fire-aunt-worried-about-her-foodstamps-video/


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 18, 2014)

wow...... I can't believe that aired...


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## stringmusic (Feb 18, 2014)

Seen that in the Political forum a while back....... it's VERY tough to watch.


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## 660griz (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> As a Christian I have a very hard time comprehending the banality of the evil the video in this story portrays.



As a human being, I have a hard time comprehending it also.


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## Terminal Idiot (Feb 18, 2014)

I swear I am about the most docile human you will ever meet, but I would love to slap the snot outta that woman and the kid's mother. She saw no problem with leaving a 2 and 3 year old alone.

Just out of curiosity, why did you post that in this section? 

As a person that has a hard time believing the god story - this doesn't help. There are people that post in other parts of the forum that will say that they prayed to god for successful hunts and that led them to a deer. And these kids had to die. Makes me scratch my head.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> I swear I am about the most docile human you will ever meet, but I would love to slap the snot outta that woman and the kid's mother. She saw no problem with leaving a 2 and 3 year old alone.
> 
> Just out of curiosity, why did you post that in this section?
> 
> As a person that has a hard time believing the god story - this doesn't help. There are people that post in other parts of the forum that will say that they prayed to god for successful hunts and that led them to a deer. And these kids had to die. Makes me scratch my head.



The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life.
I'm sorry, but you can't lay this at God's feet.  The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.

I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 18, 2014)

Apologetics
An excerpt from Ravi Zacharias’ book “Can Man Live Without God?” Steve Turner says “No!”…But we try all the time….
“Creed” on the World
By Steve Turner
We believe in Marxfreudanddarwin
We believe everything is OK
as long as you don’t hurt anyone
to the best of your definition of hurt,
and to the best of your knowledge.
We believe in sex before, during, and
after marriage.
We believe in the therapy of sin.
We believe that adultery is fun.
We believe that sodomy’s OK.
We believe that taboos are taboo.
We believe that everything’s getting better
despite evidence to the contrary.
The evidence must be investigated
And you can prove anything with evidence.
We believe there’s something in horoscopes
UFO’s and bent spoons.
Jesus was a good man just like Buddha,
Mohammed, and ourselves.
He was a good moral teacher though we think
His good morals were bad.
We believe that all religions are basically the same-
at least the one that we read was.
They all believe in love and goodness.
They only differ on matters of creation,
sin, heaven, - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, God, and salvation.
We believe that after death comes the Nothing
Because when you ask the dead what happens
they say nothing.
If death is not the end, if the dead have lied, then its
compulsory heaven for all
excepting perhaps
Hitler, Stalin, and Genghis Kahn
We believe in Masters and Johnson
What’s selected is average.
What’s average is normal.
What’s normal is good.
We believe in total disarmament.
We believe there are direct links between warfare and
bloodshed.
Americans should beat their guns into tractors .
And the Russians would be sure to follow.
We believe that man is essentially good.
It’s only his behavior that lets him down.
This is the fault of society.
Society is the fault of conditions.
Conditions are the fault of society.
We believe that each man must find the truth that
is right for him.
Reality will adapt accordingly.
The universe will readjust.
History will alter.
We believe that there is no absolute truth
excepting the truth
that there is no absolute truth.
We believe in the rejection of creeds,
And the flowering of individual thought.
If chance be
the Father of all flesh,
disaster is his rainbow in the sky
and when you hear
State of Emergency!
Sniper Kills Ten!
Troops on Rampage!
Whites go Looting!
Bomb Blasts School!
It is but the sound of man
worshipping his maker.
Steve Turner, (English journalist), “Creed,” his satirical poem on the modern mind. Taken from Ravi Zacharias’ book Can Man live Without God? Pages 42-44


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 18, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life.
> I'm sorry, but you can't lay this at God's feet.  The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.
> 
> I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.



I agree we can't blame God but not respecting the sanctity of life isn't something that has just started. Looking back at the American Revolution where the Loyalist  who surrendered were shot and Indians were used for target practice. I do realize this was wartime but this and other non wartime examples show proof that respect for the sanctity of life isn't something new. It is still bad and repulsive none the less. I don't think it's related to Christianity or Atheism.


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## ambush80 (Feb 19, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life.
> I'm sorry, but you can't lay this at God's feet.  The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.
> 
> I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.




And when she says she's a Christian and you tell her she ain't I'd like to be there for the throwdown.


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## 660griz (Feb 19, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.


 Maybe, God should lead by example. Or, maybe he is. If we are created in the image of God, and he was responsible for atrocities, (see the great flood), I guess he can't expect too much difference from us. Apple doesn't fall far...



> I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.



The 'lottery' of birth doesn't always produce a winner.


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## Denton (Feb 20, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life.
> I'm sorry, but you can't lay this at God's feet.  The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.
> 
> I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.



I'm not really sure why you posted this, and more specifically why you posted this here.  It's a tragedy and the woman is tragically selfish.  

Believing that this is a "modern" problem is willfully ignorant of history.  Equally abhorrent is the belief that Christianity has a monopoly on morality and a respect for the sanctity of life.  You think the christian orphanages for forcibly removed native american children were full of tickling and pillow fights? Or that christian manifest destiny left room for native american villages? 

Did you post this to somehow blame us for this?  To point at it, then point at non-believers and say, you are just as bad as this woman?  Why are you SFD such a cold heartless person to try to use this video, the tragedy of their deaths, to somehow force us to come to christ any faster?  

I'm sure How you treat your spiritual enemies will be equally judged by your God as how firmly  you held to your beliefs.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 20, 2014)

Denton said:


> I'm not really sure why you posted this, and more specifically why you posted this here.  It's a tragedy and the woman is tragically selfish.
> 
> Believing that this is a "modern" problem is willfully ignorant of history.  Equally abhorrent is the belief that Christianity has a monopoly on morality and a respect for the sanctity of life.  You think the christian orphanages for forcibly removed native american children were full of tickling and pillow fights? Or that christian manifest destiny left room for native american villages?
> 
> ...


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## 660griz (Feb 20, 2014)

One way to stop folks from drawing their own conclusions is to post answers. What was your intended purpose of posting this in the AAA forum?


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## drippin' rock (Feb 20, 2014)

660griz said:


> One way to stop folks from drawing their own conclusions is to post answers. What was your intended purpose of posting this in the AAA forum?



I know the first thing I thought when I watched the video is," Those durn atheists!"


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## 660griz (Feb 20, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> I know the first thing I thought when I watched the video is," Those durn atheists!"



We do like our smoked chillins. 

Now, if the lovely lady on the video was an atheist, THAT would have been real news.


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## stringmusic (Feb 20, 2014)

660griz said:


> One way to stop folks from drawing their own conclusions is to post answers. What was your intended purpose of posting this in the AAA forum?


...


SemperFiDawg said:


> The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life.
> I'm sorry, but you can't lay this at God's feet.  The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.
> 
> I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.





drippin' rock said:


> I know the first thing I thought when I watched the video is," Those durn atheists!"


I don't think that was the point of this thread at all.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 20, 2014)

Was it to have the opportunity to post a pointless poem?


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## Denton (Feb 20, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> ...
> I don't think that was the point of this thread at all.



Don't be coy! Stop teasing us and tell us what you think the point of posting that video in the AAA forum was.  If SFD will only tell us with emoticons, then we need you to translate for him.


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## stringmusic (Feb 20, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> Was it to have the opportunity to post a pointless poem?


It's actually a great poem with a lot of truth in it.



Denton said:


> Don't be coy! Stop teasing us and tell us what you think the point of posting that video in the AAA forum was.  If SFD will only tell us with emoticons, then we need you to translate for him.


See post #6


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## ambush80 (Feb 20, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> It's actually a great poem with a lot of truth in it.
> 
> 
> See post #6



Answer me something.  If that lady believes with all her heart and soul that God came to Earth as Jesus, was crucified for man's sins and was raised from the dead three days later does she get to go to Heaven despite being a human piece of poop?


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 20, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Answer me something.  If that lady believes with all her heart and soul that God came to Earth as Jesus, was crucified for man's sins and was raised from the dead three days later does she get to go to Heaven despite being a human piece of poop?



If she was a true Christian and not one in name only(if even that is the case) there would be evidence.   Anyone can label them-self a Christian, just like anyone can label himself/herself a brick mason, fireman, etc., but if there's no evidence that would lead others to come to that conclusion then it's safe to assume the moniker is false. Don't you agree?  

As for my reason for posting this here.  String had it right.  First sentence post 6.  Thought it was fairly obvious. Guess it roused so many feathers that it was overlooked in the haste to lambast me.  No biggie.


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## ambush80 (Feb 20, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If she was a true Christian and not one in name only(if even that is the case) there would be evidence.   Anyone can label them-self a Christian, just like anyone can label himself/herself a brick mason, fireman, etc., but if there's no evidence that would lead others to come to that conclusion then it's safe to assume the moniker is false. Don't you agree?
> 
> As for my reason for posting this here.  String had it right.  First sentence post 6.  Thought it was fairly obvious. Guess it roused so many feathers that it was overlooked in the haste to lambast me.  No biggie.




Maybe she's a poorly practicing Christian but a believer none the less. If she is a believer then she goes to Heaven. Yes or no?  

If your point was "The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life." why did you post it here?  Why not upstairs?

Bad people suck.  

We ALL know that.  

If she thinks herself a Christian then I would say that I know it better than she does and if you think that if she is a believer in Christ Lord and Saviour that she is forgiven then I would say I know it better than you as well.


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## Denton (Feb 20, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> If your point was "The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life." why did you post it here?  Why not upstairs?
> 
> Bad people suck.
> 
> We ALL know that.



I like this.

I clearly have an issue with post #6 so sending me back there isn't helping. post 6 is incomplete, a smoke screen. why did you post the video here as if you were dropping the head of an innocent victim at our feet for something we did? And you're surprised by a little backlash from us?  You don't see us posting videos of westboro baptist church in the prayer forum and blaming you for them. Or videos of beheadings blaming all believers in any abrahamic religion. 

SFD goes on to say, "we as a people have forsaken this view.  this is the result." Obviously you are blaming modern nonbelievers for this result as if we suck morality out of people.  Is that why you posted here? 

Then you double down with a silly poem about how modern society loves adultery, ufos, bendy spoons (with our minds!), and horoscopes. 

Are you about 80 years old and super angry at the world? Can I give you a hug? The world is still a pretty nice place despite this depressing video.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 20, 2014)

I must agree, I don't see why this was posted in this forum. Bad is bad no matter who is doing it. Look at the lives being lost in the Ukraine. These are Christians. Killing is bad no matter who is doing it. 

Killing and not holding a value of human life is not a new concept. We are not living in a more evil time than any other era as some may think.


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## ambush80 (Feb 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I must agree, I don't see why this was posted in this forum. Bad is bad no matter who is doing it. Look at the lives being lost in the Ukraine. These are Christians. Killing is bad no matter who is doing it.
> 
> Killing and not holding a value of human life is not a new concept. We are not living in a more evil time than any other era as some may think.



It was a claim of moral superiority as always.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 21, 2014)

It's what happens when people abandon God and the principles and framework he laid out for us.


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## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's what happens when people abandon God and the principles and framework he laid out for us.



you slayed people across the lands in the name of god ,and you police the globe with force with your Christianity...a lot of death and destruction in that wake,but it is ok we sent missionaries in there to teach them the proper religion,right!!


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## 660griz (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's what happens when people abandon God and the principles and framework he laid out for us.



Just not true. I have abandoned God. I raised 3 fine kids. I have never killed any body and I help old folks cross the street. I don't kick puppies. I am happily married and have worked for the same company for 24 years. Never had a drinking/drug problem or struck a woman. Can you say the same? 
If so, we are both nice guys and God has nothing to do with it. 
If you can't, you are probably a bad guy that needs God to keep you on a leash. 
Lots of folks like that.


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## bullethead (Feb 21, 2014)

660griz said:


> Just not true. I have abandoned God. I raised 3 fine kids. I have never killed any body and I help old folks cross the street. I don't kick puppies. I am happily married and have worked for the same company for 24 years. Never had a drinking/drug problem or struck a woman. Can you say the same?
> If so, we are both nice guys and God has nothing to do with it.
> If you can't, you are probably a bad guy that needs God to keep you on a leash.
> Lots of folks like that.



Perfect!
These guys CANNOT think, let alone see any reality outside of their own little box.


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## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's what happens when people abandon God and the principles and framework he laid out for us.



It's what happens when people are bad people.  Sure, if she lived by Jesus a bit more this might not have happened.  But living like Gandhi would have prevented this too.  Or living like any other nice person of any faith or no faith would have prevented this.   

You just won't say, "Christians are morally superior" will you.  You imply it constantly so just say it.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

660griz said:


> Just not true. I have abandoned God. I raised 3 fine kids. I have never killed any body and I help old folks cross the street. I don't kick puppies. I am happily married and have worked for the same company for 24 years. Never had a drinking/drug problem or struck a woman. Can you say the same?
> If so, we are both nice guys and God has nothing to do with it.
> If you can't, you are probably a bad guy that needs God to keep you on a leash.
> Lots of folks like that.




I agree that there are some people incapable of policing themselves and though they may relinquish the ability to think  for themselves or think rationally, by imposing a Boogey Man, society is better off. 

Just kidding.  Imagine if all those criminals were taught how to be rational and empathetic and how to take personal responsibility instead of being taught that they are forgiven and will go to Heaven despite their crimes.  What if they could be shown how valuable and singular their lives are and how much better off they will be by treating others kindly instead of thinking that they get a "do over".


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> It's what happens when people are bad people.  Sure, if she lived by Jesus a bit more this might not have happened.  But living like Gandhi would have prevented this too.  Or living like any other nice person of any faith or no faith would have prevented this.


So because people, such as Gandhi, live under some of the same parameters of Christianity, it makes their theological views just as relevant?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I agree that there are some people incapable of policing themselves and though they may relinquish the ability to think  for themselves or think rationally, by imposing a Boogey Man, society is better off.
> 
> Just kidding.  Imagine if all those criminals were taught how to be rational and empathetic and how to take personal responsibility instead of being taught that they are forgiven and will go to Heaven despite their crimes.  What if they could be shown how valuable and singular their lives are and how much better off they will be by treating others kindly instead of thinking that they get a "do over".



A lot of them would then probably have a "get it while you can" attitude.

I only got one shot at this life, and I want a lot of money, I think I'll take yours. Perfectly logical.


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> I clearly have an issue with post #6 so sending me back there isn't helping. post 6 is incomplete, a smoke screen.



Straw man.... that would be...


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> A lot of them would then probably have a "get it while you can" attitude.
> 
> I only got one shot at this life, and I want a lot of money, I think I'll take yours. Perfectly logical.



Very wrong, Sir.   If you have a well cultivated sense of  empathy, which is a highly desirable trait for living in society, you won't come to that conclusion. Ever.


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It's what happens when people abandon God and the principles and framework he laid out for us.



If she is a REAL christian, not a faker, then she knows where those kids are. They're with Jesus... She be happy and only care about food stamps.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> So because people, such as Gandhi, live under some of the same parameters of Christianity, it makes their theological views just as relevant?


If a subject is based on faith and belief and not facts, how would you personally determine if their faith and beliefs were relevant or not? And I don't mean relevant to you but relevant at all.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Very wrong, Sir.   If you have a well cultivated sense of  empathy, which is a highly desirable trait for living in society, you won't come to that conclusion. Ever.



Ta'heck with society, I've only got one shot at this, I'm gonna make it good.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> If a subject is based on faith and belief and not facts,


first, I'd just like to say I'm glad I'm not in that camp.



> how would you personally determine if their faith and beliefs were relevant or not? And I don't mean relevant to you but relevant at all.


I don't think I could, completely.

Is it reasonable, is it logical?


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Ta'heck with society, I've only got one shot at this, I'm gonna make it good.



If you can't connect the dots as to why that's an irrational position then WE'RE all  better off with you fearing The Boogey Man.

How do you account for the fact that I'm not a serial child raping tax evader? (You'll have to take my word on that).  Or how can you account for all the kind, loving Hindus?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> If she is a REAL christian, not a faker, then she knows where those kids are. They're with Jesus... She be happy and only care about food stamps.



Yes, the bible clearly teaches that we should not mourn the death of children, but that we should worry about our card that gives us the ability to steal from other people.


I see you've been going to Wednesday night bible study again.


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## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> So because people, such as Gandhi, live under some of the same parameters of Christianity, it makes their theological views just as relevant?



sure why not.  Christianity didn't invent peace, turn the other cheek, live the golden rule, etc.  If other religions share those qualities then yes, their theological views are just as relevant in teaching people to live peaceful happy productive lives.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> sure why not.  Christianity didn't invent peace, turn the other cheek, live the golden rule, etc.  If other religions share those qualities then yes, their theological views are just as relevant in teaching people to live peaceful happy productive lives.




That's where you lost him.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> If you can't connect the dots as to why that's an irrational position then WE'RE all  better off with you fearing The Boogey Man.


We've(collectively) been over this a million times. That position is just as rational and logical as yours, under your parameters.



> How do you account for the fact that I'm not a serial child raping tax evader? (You'll have to take my word on that).Or how can you account for all the kind, loving Hindus?


I'm not so sure. You done your taxes this year yet?

I account for the fact that your not x,y,z and Hindus(you like them don't you?) because that's what you/they choose not to do. Just because you're an Atheist, that doesn't automatically mean that you're going to be a child raping tax evader, it only means you have chosen not to be. My contention is that another Atheist can choose to be, and you have no right to tell them they are wrong.


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> If she is a REAL christian, not a faker, then she knows where those kids are. They're with Jesus... She be happy and only care about food stamps.



She can be forgiven; washed by the blood and go to Heaven.

Ain't it grand?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> sure why not.  Christianity didn't invent peace, turn the other cheek, live the golden rule, etc.  If other religions share those qualities then yes, their theological views are just as relevant in teaching people to live peaceful happy productive lives.



God's been around a long time.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> She can be forgiven; washed by the blood and go to Heaven.
> 
> Ain't it grand?



Yes, people that have done bad things can still go to heaven, it's actually pretty grand, because EVERYBODY including you and me have done bad things.

I know now you'll start by saying that you've never killed anybody and that you're a "good" guy, but that's not the point.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> That's where you lost him.



LOL, I've been around this forum for a long time, and that's what you think?

Maybe you should try reading slower?


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## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> We've(collectively) been over this a million times. That position is just as rational and logical as yours, under your parameters.
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure. You done your taxes this year yet?
> ...



Hindus are subject to the same irrational reasons for behaving as you are.  Bringing them up shows that Christians don't have a monopoly on good behavior.

How do you recon I got to the place where I chose not to be a criminal?


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Hindus are subject to the same irrational reasons for behaving as you are.  Bringing them up shows that Christians don't have a monopoly on good behavior.


Why does this constantly come up? Who claims this on this forum?



> How do you recon I got to the place where I chose not to be a criminal?


I dont' know, society?, your parents?, don't want to go to jail? probably a lot of the same things that I use.


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## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> God's been around a long time.



sure, but christianity has not.  Only for 2000 years and certainly not all across the world.  Again, christianity does not have a monopoly on morals nor is the threat of eternal dangnation the driving factor in why people do nice things.  

I don't know anyone who thinks to themselves before every act of kindness, I should do this or else my soul will go to heck.  That's selfish.  People do nice things because they like the other person.  That's universal and crosses religions.


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## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

wow, the no cussing bot is strict.


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## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> sure, but christianity has not.  Only for 2000 years and certainly not all across the world.  Again, christianity does not have a monopoly on morals nor is the threat of eternal dangnation the driving factor in why people do nice things.
> 
> I don't know anyone who thinks to themselves before every act of kindness, I should do this or else my soul will go to heck.  That's selfish.  People do nice things because they like the other person.  That's universal and crosses religions.



OK, I agree.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> first, I'd just like to say I'm glad I'm not in that camp.
> 
> 
> > how would you personally determine if their faith and beliefs were relevant or not? And I don't mean relevant to you but relevant at all.
> ...





> first, I'd just like to say I'm glad I'm not in that camp.


Oh come on String.


> I don't think I could, completely.


Now you are being honest. And the reason you cant is because there are no facts to compare to only faith and belief for the existence of gods. Each religions beliefs are as relevant as any other.


> Is it reasonable, is it logical?


Interesting.


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## SemperFiDawg (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> We've(collectively) been over this a million times. That position is just as rational and logical as yours, under your parameters.
> 
> 
> I'm not so sure. You done your taxes this year yet?
> ...



The part they never "get".


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## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Why does this constantly come up? Who claims this on this forum?



uh, you do every time you lament the absence of god in the lives of criminals or say things like without god then how do you know to do good?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Why does this constantly come up? Who claims this on this forum?
> 
> 
> I dont' know, society?, your parents?, don't want to go to jail? probably a lot of the same things that I used.



You claim that the God of Abraham is is the sole originator of morality.

I'll tell you.  It's rational.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The part they never "get".



And what you don't get is that you can make a rational argument as to why you shouldn't knock someone in the head and take their gold.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> uh, you do every time you lament the absence of god in the lives of criminals or say things like without god then how do you know to do good?


Can you point to me where I've said that on this thread, or maybe you could look through my 10,000 plus posts and find where I've said that?


ambush80 said:


> And what you don't get is that you can make a rational argument as to why you shouldn't knock someone in the head and take their gold.


Yes, you can make a rational argument for that(that will HAVE to smuggle in assumptions like inherent human value and worth), now tell me why I shouldn't do it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> She can be forgiven; washed by the blood and go to Heaven.
> 
> Ain't it grand?



Absolutely. What's wrong with that?  Do you feel the need for justice of some sort?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> And what you don't get is that you can make a rational argument as to why you shouldn't knock someone in the head and take their gold.



I can, as well as why they shouldn't take yours.  That's the important part, and one you can't make.


----------



## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Can you point to me where I've said that on this thread, or maybe you could look through my 10,000 plus posts and find where I've said that?



Challenge Accepted! 



ambush80 said:


> Imagine if all those criminals were taught how to be rational and empathetic and how to take personal responsibility instead of being taught that they are forgiven and will go to Heaven despite their crimes.  What if they could be shown how valuable and singular their lives are and how much better off they will be by treating others kindly instead of thinking that they get a "do over".





stringmusic said:


> A lot of them would then probably have a "get it while you can" attitude.
> 
> I only got one shot at this life, and I want a lot of money, I think I'll take yours. Perfectly logical.



So without Heaven as the goal people would assume a "get it while you can" attitude? As in heaven is the only thing keeping them from going bandit and doing good? 

How can you say this when there are billions of people who are not christian who don't constantly try to kill each other for stuff?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Can you point to me where I've said that on this thread, or maybe you could look through my 10,000 plus posts and find where I've said that?
> 
> Yes, you can make a rational argument for that(that will HAVE to smuggle in assumptions like inherent human value and worth), now tell me why I shouldn't do it.



Cause if you do it then we'll all do it which is a difficult way to live.  If we agree to punish those that do it then we'll all be better off.  All you have to do is value your life and recognize the benefit to YOU of treating everyone well.  

There. No god necessary.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Absolutely. What's wrong with that?  Do you feel the need for justice of some sort?



I don't know if she will feel comfort by asking god for forgiveness but if she does than she didn't learn anything of value.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I can, as well as why they shouldn't take yours.  That's the important part, and one you can't make.



I meant "One can make a rational argument..... ".  Not "you" specifically because in fact your motive isn't based on reason.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> So without Heaven as the goal people would assume a "get it while you can" attitude? As in heaven is the only thing keeping them from going bandit and doing good?


I said "a lot of people" not all people. 



> How can you say this when there are billions of people who are not christian who don't constantly try to kill each other for stuff?


Check out the last 10 or so posts on page one of this thread, I've already been over this specific topic with 
Ambush.



Denton said:


> Challenge Accepted!


Challenge Failed.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Cause if you do it then we'll all do it which is a difficult way to live.


Of course it will be a difficult way to live, because I'll have all your money. 



> If we agree to punish those that do it then we'll all be better off.  All you have to do is value your life and recognize the benefit to YOU of treating everyone well.


Tell that to one of them Mexican drug lords.

Even if I accepted your reasoning behind "treating everyone well" I would still have no moral obligation to do so, except when it would benefit me, and having a lot of money benefits me.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Of course it will be a difficult way to live, because I'll have all your money.
> 
> 
> Tell that to one of them Mexican drug lords.
> ...



does the mexican drug lord live here?


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

hummdaddy said:


> does the mexican drug lord live here?



In the USA? I don't know, probably some of them? Most of them live in Mexico I would imagine.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Mexico

The Catholic Church is the dominant religion in Mexico, with about 82.7% of the population as of 2010. In recent decades the number of Catholics has been declining, due to the growth of other Christian denominations (especially various Protestant churches and Mormonism), which now constitute 9.7% of the population, and non-Christian religions


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Of course it will be a difficult way to live, because I'll have all your money.
> 
> 
> Tell that to one of them Mexican drug lords.
> ...





> I would still have no moral obligation to do so, except when it would benefit me,


This is the part of the argument that makes me glad some of you believe in God because it sure sounds like you would be rotten people without it.
I cant decide if its just really sad or kind of disgusting.
I think both maybe.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> In the USA? I don't know, probably some of them? Most of them live in Mexico I would imagine.



even drug lords are religious christian  people


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> This is the part of the argument that makes me glad some of you believe in God because it sure sounds like you would be rotten people without it.
> I cant decide if its just really sad or kind of disgusting.
> I think both maybe.



I'd probably be much like you and Ambush if I were an Atheist.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> This is the part of the argument that makes me glad some of you believe in God because it sure sounds like you would be rotten people without it.
> I cant decide if its just really sad or kind of disgusting.
> I think both maybe.



Know what I'm sayin'?


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I'd probably be much like you and Ambush if I were an Atheist.



I would hope so.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

how moral were the Christians through the crusades?


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I'd probably be much like you and Ambush if I were an Atheist.


No I don't think so based on your argument.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

your saying that we are a new and improved controlling breed now ,huh!!!


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> No I don't think so based on your argument.



It's just an argument, and a valid one at that.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

anyone ,anyone


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> It's just an argument, and a valid one at that.



Do you contend that it is impossible to make a rational argument for getting along?

State it here and now and let it be forever known.

I have shown you why mayhem is a poor alternative to peaceful coexistence. Have I not?  And it has nothing to do with god.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> It's just an argument, and a valid one at that.


Only valid if you know this about yourself -


> I would still have no moral obligation to do so, except when it would benefit me


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

> your saying that we are a new and improved controlling breed now ,huh!!!





> anyone ,anyone


I'll be glad to be the "anyone" but don't understand your question?


----------



## TripleXBullies (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> She can be forgiven; washed by the blood and go to Heaven.
> 
> Ain't it grand?



She doesn't need to be forgiven for anything. She helped send them to Jesus.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Even if I accepted your reasoning behind "treating everyone well" I would still have no moral obligation to do so,



I would and I don't believe in God. Hmmmm
Back to the same conclusions. Some folks need God to know right from wrong.


----------



## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I said "a lot of people" not all people.
> Challenge Failed.



Eh, ya win some, ya lose some.  



So believing in heaven is not a requirement to doing nice things.  And many people form stable societies without christianity.  Some societies are not so stable, like, as you say, regions of mexico that have been taken over by drug lords.  But aren't those regions predominantly catholic? As terrible as the drug lords are, I would not call them christian, but I wonder how many of them would still consider themselves catholics? 

Ambush is right though, people make and abide by laws because they make sense.  Sometimes it makes sense because we know we'll get caught.  Other times we abide by them because we know the reasoning for the law.  The entire system is built on trust, not god, because its a prisoner's dilemma situation.  We can all gain more if we work together.  Criminals either don't trust the system to look out for them or feel as if they can game the system. We make laws because we want to 1) codify the system so we all know how to work together and 2) to keep people from cheating the system.  The goal of our rule of law, of the interweaving of our three branches, is to try to protect against all the ways people can try to cheat the system.  Our founding fathers and all those generations who protected that system knew that the threat of heck would not deter people from cheating the system so they set up men to watch over men.  The built rules so that it was in the best interest of individuals to keep others in line.  

They knew that morality comes from each other, not from any divine intervention.  We picked the laws that made sense, no killing, and did not adopt the laws that didn't, only the Christian God will be acceptable.  

do people slip through? of course.  There's bad luck, bad decisions, and the genetic lottery spits out sociopaths with no empathy on a regular but minimal basis.  Hence laws. 

In Mexico the system has collapsed because too many people were gaming the system and the legal institutions were not so well established as our own.  It takes a lot of work to rebuild that system and some of the people are trying to do just that by working together with people that they do trust.  If they trust each other because they are all part of the same family, village, state, or part of the same religion then fine, whatever works.  But its about working together not about pleasing god.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> Criminals either don't trust the system to look out for them or feel as if they can game the system.



Playing armchair psychologist, do you recon there's a connection between Christian's belief that people are born wicked sinners and their inability to recognize that they can achieve peace and harmony through rational process. I think it's the case.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I'll be glad to be the "anyone" but don't understand your question?



He wont answer any questions from me deist,christian,constitutonal beliefs


----------



## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Playing armchair psychologist, do you recon there's a connection between Christian's belief that people are born wicked sinners and their inability to recognize that they can achieve peace and harmony through rational process. I think it's the case.



Yes.  It gives a religious reason for people to sometimes make irrational decisions, mistakes, or to rationally choose an antisocietal behavior.  That though is not the full result of blaming those decisions on the belief that people are born sinners.  I think the belief that people are born wicked sinners absolves God of any blame for allowing sin/pain/suffering into the world.  If you put all wrong on people, then god is left clean as a whistle.  But then he takes credit for all the good things.  God is smart that way.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

Denton said:


> Yes.  It gives a religious reason for people to sometimes make irrational decisions, mistakes, or to rationally choose an antisocietal behavior.  That though is not the full result of blaming those decisions on the belief that people are born sinners.  I think the belief that people are born wicked sinners absolves God of any blame for allowing sin/pain/suffering into the world.  If you put all wrong on people, then god is left clean as a whistle.  But then he takes credit for all the good things.  God is smart that way.




The position that most intrigues me is the one where some of them accept that god is entirely responsible for mosquitoes, AIDS, child rapes and spina bifida but that it is all part of a loving, beautiful and wondrous plan that we just can't understand.  He loves us.   If I were to become a believer again I think I would have to adopt this position.  It's the only logically consistent one.  Then again, if I were a believer I would also believe in talking snakes.

It's confounding.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Playing armchair psychologist, do you recon there's a connection between Christian's belief that people are born wicked sinners and their inability to recognize that they can achieve peace and harmony through rational process. I think it's the case.


Yes its the indoctrination that without God I will be a piece of carp who doesn't have the ability to be anything else through my own efforts.
Pretty evil if you think about it.
Whats a reason you hear over and over from an abused woman who stays with her husband? "He convinced me that without him I would be nothing". We classify that as mental abuse. Interesting.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Yes its the indoctrination that without God I will be a piece of carp who doesn't have the ability to be anything else through my own efforts.
> Pretty evil if you think about it.
> Whats a reason you hear over and over from an abused woman who stays with her husband? "He convinced me that without him I would be nothing". We classify that as mental abuse. Interesting.



So back to the OP.  That lady is like that because of Atheists.


----------



## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

660griz said:


> We do like our smoked chillins.



We don't trade recipes on this forum for Fatties for nuthin. They're all-american.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> So back to the OP.  That lady is like that because of Atheists.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


>





SemperFiDawg said:


> The video makes poignantly and painfully clear what happens when we lose our respect for the sanctity of life.
> I'm sorry, but you can't lay this at God's feet.  The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.  We as a people have forsaken that view.  This is a result.
> 
> I doubt anyone ever prayed for these kids.  Maybe that's the biggest tragedy of all.  No one cared.  I see it almost every day.  You will too if you just look around.



So why did he post it here?  If he posted it in the Bow Hunting section I'm sure bowhunters would think he was directing it at them, no?

When he says "we as a people" do you think he's talking about Christians?


----------



## bullethead (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> God's been around a long time.



5000 years is not that long.


----------



## Denton (Feb 21, 2014)

stringmusic said:


>





SemperFiDawg said:


>



deja vu.  

I think there's a glitch in the matrix.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> So back to the OP.  That lady is like that because of Atheists.


No she's like that because of ignorance and selfishness.
Qualities that can be found in some people regardless of what they believe or don't believe. To deny that would be further examples of the same.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 21, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> No she's like that because of ignorance and selfishness.
> Qualities that can be found in some people regardless of what they believe or don't believe. To deny that would be further examples of the same.



Then what's the point of the OP?  To say that people that believe that Christ is Lord are less likely to act that way?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 21, 2014)

In relation to this decade's treatment of human life, wasn't the 1920's worse? We had the Catholic mafia, Christian KKK, women had no rights, blacks had no rights, etc.
The KKK rose to fame in the twenties. Gangs were big in the twenties. People were wild, drinking & dancing provocatively.
Reefer madness was popular. Popular songs were full of terrible sexual innuendos. Homosexual "Pansy" clubs sprung up.

If one was truly looking for the worst recent decade it would have to be the Twenties. What happened that brought us closer to God during the 30's- 90's? What has happened recently that makes one think the current decade is different or farther away from God. Is it  "rap" music as compare to that weird hippie Beatles music or that gyrating Elvis dude?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know if she will feel comfort by asking god for forgiveness but if she does than she didn't learn anything of value.



Total dodge.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I meant "One can make a rational argument..... ".  Not "you" specifically because in fact your motive isn't based on reason.



And another.  Ok that's enough patty cake for me.  Have a good weekend.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 21, 2014)

One thing Jesus was big on was helping our fellow man. Aren't we actually doing better in this regard? Helping the sick and poor? Aren't people more tolerant of each other in today's society? We're helping people get an education. We're helping  with health care. The world has more freedom and equal rights. More families have food, shelter, and clothing. We help families build houses. We help in natural disasters. We're all showing more love.

This might be a bad thing if things are suppose to get worse than better before Jesus returns. Now if this is so, then is Jesus' return prophesied a result of our bad morals or is our bad morals a result of Jesus' prophesied return? In other words, are we hastening the return of Jesus or is there really nothing we can do to stall his return?
Actually the return of Jesus is up to God. God waiting for all of his Elect to accept Jesus before he ends it all and our lifestyles really don't have any bearing on when Jesus will return.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 21, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Then what's the point of the OP?  To say that people that believe that Christ is Lord are less likely to act that way?


Only the OP can answer that. Then based on history and credibility one would have to determine on their own if they believe the answer or not.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 22, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Answer me something.  If that lady believes with all her heart and soul that God came to Earth as Jesus, was crucified for man's sins and was raised from the dead three days later does she get to go to Heaven despite being a human piece of poop?



We are all human pieces of poop, that's why we needed a Saviour.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 22, 2014)

Well I guess we cant blame the woman then. After all you cant pay the rent with a couple of pieces of poop.
Im having trouble squaring "we are all pieces of poop" with "sanctity of life". It almost seems like they are the opposite of each other


----------



## bullethead (Feb 22, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Im having trouble squaring "we are all pieces of poop" with "sanctity of life". It almost seems like they are the opposite of each other



If you read between the lines on here, everybody gives us their reason(s) for why they NEED a god and why gods have been created.

It might have something to do with:
Past or Current....
Upbringing.
Abusive relationships/partners/spouse
Drugs
Alcohol
Behavior
Jail
Bad relationships
Illness to self, family or friend
Lack of understanding
Satisfied with not wanting to know more
Judgmental
Mortality
Self esteem
Fear of the unknown
Ease of mind
Flock syndrome 
etc...
etc....
etc.....


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> One thing Jesus was big on was helping our fellow man. Aren't we actually doing better in this regard? Helping the sick and poor? Aren't people more tolerant of each other in today's society? We're helping people get an education. We're helping  with health care. The world has more freedom and equal rights. More families have food, shelter, and clothing. We help families build houses. We help in natural disasters. We're all showing more love.
> 
> This might be a bad thing if things are suppose to get worse than better before Jesus returns. Now if this is so, then is Jesus' return prophesied a result of our bad morals or is our bad morals a result of Jesus' prophesied return? In other words, are we hastening the return of Jesus or is there really nothing we can do to stall his return?
> Actually the return of Jesus is up to God. God waiting for all of his Elect to accept Jesus before he ends it all and our lifestyles really don't have any bearing on when Jesus will return.



no some of the people in our religion try to oppress our individual liberties with their personal agendas,that they find in their interpretation of our religion,in our free country!!!


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 22, 2014)

bullethead said:


> If you read between the lines on here, everybody gives us their reason(s) for why they NEED a god and why gods have been created.
> 
> It might have something to do with:
> Past or Current....
> ...


Yeah its very odd to me. For example if someones daughter was dating or married to a man who told her she was a piece of poop without him -
The parents would try to get her away from him.
Mom would be giving the daughter a lesson in self worth.
Dad would be wanting to kick his behind.
Both would be trying to show the daughter how bad this relationship is for her.
Etc etc.
Oh we are talking about the Bible? Well then yeah you are piece of poop without Him.
Odd. Very odd.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 22, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> We are all human pieces of poop, that's why we needed a Saviour.



Wow! 
Perhaps self deprecation is one cause of religion.


----------



## drippin' rock (Feb 22, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> We are all human pieces of poop, that's why we needed a Saviour.



Speak for yourself.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Feb 23, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> We are all human pieces of poop, that's why we needed a Saviour.



Amen


----------



## Terminal Idiot (Feb 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Amen



Low self esteem much?

I am certainly not perfect, but a piece of pop I am not. And I am not raising pieces of poop either.


----------



## Terminal Idiot (Feb 24, 2014)

Pop.... Or poop either.


----------



## hummdaddy (Feb 24, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Amen



do you know the definition of that word!!!

so says the king!!!


----------



## JustUs4All (Feb 24, 2014)

Really?


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 25, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Low self esteem much?
> 
> I am certainly not perfect, but a piece of pop I am not. And I am not raising pieces of poop either.



According to your definition of "piece of poop", whatever that may be.


----------



## bullethead (Feb 25, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> According to your definition of "piece of poop", whatever that may be.



What is your definition?


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 25, 2014)

bullethead said:


> What is your definition?



Although I probably wouldn't use the words "piece of poop", I would say any life that is lived on this earth apart from his/her purpose.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 25, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Although I probably wouldn't use the words "piece of poop", I would say any life that is lived on this earth apart from his/her purpose.


So you get that ^ is the opposite of this -


> The Bible clearly teaches that we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity.


Right?


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 25, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> So you get that ^ is the opposite of this -
> 
> Right?



Yes, but they are two different things.


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 25, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Yes, but they are two different things.


They are not two different things. They are both describing people.
What is different is that they are opposite. They conflict each other. They both cant be true at the same time.
One (or both) of them is false.
Either -


> we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity


Or -


> I would say any life that is lived on this earth apart from his/her purpose


Now you said you wouldn't use the word poop but obviously you would replace it with a different "negative" word because you gave the reason why.
Its not really your fault, Its just one of the many conflicting things religion indoctrinates you to ignore or not to see.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 26, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> They are not two different things. They are both describing people.
> What is different is that they are opposite. They conflict each other. They both cant be true at the same time.
> One (or both) of them is false.
> Either -
> ...



One is how we were created, the other is how we choose to live.


----------



## 660griz (Feb 26, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> One is how we were created, the other is how we choose to live.



How do you get that from: "We are all human pieces of poop"?


----------



## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> One is how we were created, the other is how we choose to live.





> how we choose to live


You really don't see that you are making a judgment of a person depending on how they choose to live? By saying one choice is "better" than the other you are making this false -


> we were created in the image of God with infinite dignity, value, and sanctity


See that word ^ infinite? I assume you know what the means. If the Bible says this then you are going against the Bible by making the judgment that its not infinite but actually depends on how "we choose to live".
And again, I know you aren't making these things up for yourself. Its what you are taught. Thats why this is a true statement -


> Its just one of the many conflicting things religion indoctrinates you to ignore or not to see


.
They both cant be true at the same time.


----------



## ambush80 (Feb 26, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> You really don't see that you are making a judgment of a person depending on how they choose to live? By saying one choice is "better" than the other you are making this false -
> 
> See that word ^ infinite? I assume you know what the means. If the Bible says this then you are going against the Bible by making the judgment that its not infinite but actually depends on how "we choose to live".
> And again, I know you aren't making these things up for yourself. Its what you are taught. Thats why this is a true statement -
> ...




Oh, snap Mr. String. Oh snap.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Feb 26, 2014)

The force is strong with him. Nothing will change...


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 26, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> You really don't see that you are making a judgment of a person depending on how they choose to live? By saying one choice is "better" than the other you are making this false -
> 
> See that word ^ infinite? I assume you know what the means. If the Bible says this then you are going against the Bible by making the judgment that its not infinite but actually depends on how "we choose to live".
> And again, I know you aren't making these things up for yourself. Its what you are taught. Thats why this is a true statement -
> ...


I'm not making the judgement, God is.

Like I stated earlier, I don't think "we are pieces of poop" is a very good metaphor. I believe every person is created in the image of God, which in turn gives us value, etc. God loving us and sending His Son to die for us proves that we have value to Him.

I also believe that humans are depraved, but that corruption does not take away the value that was placed in us by God, it is only a seperation from perfection.


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 26, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> The force is strong with him. Nothing will change...



You're absolutely right.


The same could be said for many others in here as well.


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## stringmusic (Feb 26, 2014)

BTW Walt, I've grown to like you a lot, you really make me think. I'd really like to sit around a campfire with you and talk in person, that would be a long night, LOL.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> I'm not making the judgement, God is.
> 
> Like I stated earlier, I don't think "we are pieces of poop" is a very good metaphor. I believe every person is created in the image of God, which in turn gives us value, etc. God loving us and sending His Son to die for us proves that we have value to Him.
> 
> I also believe that humans are depraved, but that corruption does not take away the value that was placed in us by God, it is only a seperation from perfection.





> I'm not making the judgement, God is


.
I understand, that's why I said this -


> I know you aren't making these things up for yourself. Its what you are taught.


And another example. Christianity teaches you -


> that humans are depraved


And Christianity teaches you -


> every person is created in the image of God,


The only way for both of those to be true at the same time is..... God is depraved. Of course that is NOT what you are taught. 
Again -


> Its not really your fault, Its just one of the many conflicting things religion indoctrinates you to ignore or not to see.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2014)

> Originally Posted by TripleXBullies View Post
> The force is strong with him. Nothing will change...





stringmusic said:


> You're absolutely right.
> The same could be said for many others in here as well.


Just want to point out that I don't think you should change and Im not trying to change you or anybody else.
And actually, I don't believe or disbelieve in God. I just point out what has convinced me to believe religion and yes the Bible, is man made. Inspired by men.
God would have done a much better job.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 26, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> BTW Walt, I've grown to like you a lot, you really make me think. I'd really like to sit around a campfire with you and talk in person, that would be a long night, LOL.


Im glad you feel that way. I feel the same.


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## bullethead (Feb 26, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> Just want to point out that I don't think you should change and Im not trying to change you or anybody else.
> And actually, I don't believe or disbelieve in God. I just point out what has convinced me to believe religion and yes the Bible, is a man made. Inspired by men.
> God would have done a much better job.



Walt,
YES!


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## ambush80 (Feb 26, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> You're absolutely right.
> 
> 
> The same could be said for many others in here as well.



One talking donkey.  That's all I would need to change.

If you had a vision on Vishnu and he told you that he was the one true God would you change?

If all the things that make you believe in Jesus had happened to you but you thought they were caused by Vishnu would you change?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

Gees, sorry I used the word poop. Good grief....ok we are dirty rags according to the Bible.  We allow abortions, I feel pretty lowdown and dirty about that. My spirit is a different story, I am a child of the King, that makes me a princess, I was speaking of earthly living, not kingdom living, which at least I can speak for myself, that I don't deserve anything I get, it is all given to me by grace and mercy, not because I rise above, in the flesh, of being wicked in oh too many ways. 

I personally need a Saviour because I will never be perfect enough on my own to rise to the standards of entering the promised land.

I'm a pretty good person, I can say I don't steal or kill, I am kind and forthright with people. I have a lot of compassion for others, I give even more than I can afford sometimes to someone, so I'm pretty good as a human. But perfect I am not....but for the love of God and His Son Jesus, I will be made perfect.


Even sinners, child molesters, murderers were made in the image of God....so they're all ok? Whatever.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> One talking donkey.  That's all I would need to change.
> 
> If you had a vision on Vishnu and he told you that he was the one true God would you change?
> 
> If all the things that make you believe in Jesus had happened to you but you thought they were caused by Vishnu would you change?



Please let go of the donkey....lol.


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## bullethead (Mar 1, 2014)

The very God you worship kills,murders, is responsible for mass genocide and in numerous cases has made it a specific point to target and terminate babies and infants. 
Don't feel so low down and dirty, you are definitely worshiping the right God. 
"Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2014)

bullethead said:


> The very God you worship kills,murders, is responsible for mass genocide and in numerous cases has made it a specific point to target and terminate babies and infants.
> Don't feel so low down and dirty, you are definitely worshiping the right God.
> "Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man." ~ Thomas Paine




Does this mean I can reply to your posts now, since you backquoted my low down and dirty post? Oh boy, it's gonna be a free for all!!! LOL...i've bit my lip for months now trying not to respond to your posts....since you ask me not to.


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## bullethead (Mar 1, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Does this mean I can reply to your posts now, since you backquoted my low down and dirty post? Oh boy, it's gonna be a free for all!!! LOL...i've bit my lip for months now trying not to respond to your posts....since you ask me not to.



I cleared my ignore list for the new year so before that I did not know if you've been replying to me or not. You can do whatever you want, certainly without my permission. Please don't take it personally.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 2, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I cleared my ignore list for the new year so before that I did not know if you've been replying to me or not. You can do whatever you want, certainly without my permission. Please don't take it personally.



You ask me not to and I haven't....you can do what you want  I suppose, but I'll abide by your wishes and not reply to your posts. I don't put people on ignore, but I try to do what they ask me not to do.


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