# Loss of Salvation



## PWalls (Sep 27, 2004)

New Christian here (as of March of this year). Have joined and regularly attend (even the last three Sundays during bow season and very good hometown Southern Baptist church (Ebeneezer Baptist here in Cordele).

I just go through with a new discipleship class and now am attending a Basics for Baptists type class. Great class as I have always wondered about the differences between Christian religions.

One thing that has puzzled me is this:

How can a man lose his salvation once he has accepted Jesus as his personal lord and savior?

I know some Christian religions think you can do this (Methodist and some of the Pentacostal maybe?).

I find it hard to believe that a man can "undo" anything that God has given you. Also, that also sounds like a more "cruel" God to allow something like that to be an option. Also, you are born into a new creation when you accept Jesus, how can you lose that and be reborn again?.

I find plenty of scripture about salvation through Jesus, but none about losing it. Also, if you lose it, how do you get it back (since you have already accepted Jesus)?.

I am very confident in my faith and the Baptist religion. Just wanted some other opinions on my question.

Thanks in advance.


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2004)

Your issue is another one of those where I feel differently than my Baptist upbringing.  My family and church says you can not loose this salvation.  I think you can.  You could say somebody really was not saved if they turn against God.  But as with anything human you can have a change in direction for what ever reason(s).  Of course as usually, I have no scripture for this, just my belief!


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## Mechanicaldawg (Sep 27, 2004)

Grace is a gift given in Love from God through His Son, Jesus.

Do you think He would take such a gift back from you?

Is God an "Indian-giver"?


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2004)

Jeff,
I don't look at it as Him taking it back but as me giving it back or choosing to no longer follow.  As I said, my church says if you choose not to follow then you were never saved to begin with?  As the Bible teaches us, the way is hard.  It is not easy to follow!  Some can not stay with it!  Again this is only my belief and I have been wrong before.


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## Jim Ammons (Sep 27, 2004)

I definitely don't argue or debate religion or a person's salvation. Christ died on the Cross one time, that finished it. If you have ever been saved you cannot be saved again. That settles it for me.


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## cpaboy (Sep 27, 2004)

Hey PWAlls,

You may be a new Christian, but in my book you have it figured out.  We can't earn salvation (it is a free gift!!!!!).  Therefore, once we truly repent and ask Jesus to come into our life and save us, we are forever saved.  We can't dis-earn it by our behavior.  If that was the case, we would all be in trouble.

Also, when we accept Christ, we are born again (or born spiritually).  And the last time I checked, you can't undo a birth.

The bible says Christ died once for all.  His death covered all our sins-past, present, and future.  We may lose our fellowship with him b/c of our sin, but not our standing as one of his children.

Thanks for the post.


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## Vernon Holt (Sep 27, 2004)

Security seems to be the concern of many today. Much is made of National Security and Social Security. It is seldom dealt with, but the Bible has much to say about security of the believer.

In John 10:28 the Apostle John wrote: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand". Peter added in 1 Peter 1:5, "(We)who are kept by the power of God thru faith unto salvation ready to be revealed at the last time (or end time)". Matthew added this to the mix, "and I say unto thee, that thou are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it". Matt 16:18

I believe that Eternal Security is a clear teaching of Scripture. Salvation is of God. When God does something, he does not do it halfway.

The problem (if there is a problem) stems from people having an emotional experience that soon passes without them truly experiencing what is referred to as the new birth. It is said of these that they have lost their salvation. One cannot lose something that they never possessed.

When one is "born again" the old self passes away, and behold "all things" become new. New habits, new language, new friends, and a new outlook becomes the order of the day. 1 John 5:12 states "He that hath the son hath life, and he that hath not the son of God hath not life". It cannot be said with greater clarity.

Vernon


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2004)

SO, as a young man I accept Christ.  I lived as he would want me to for many years.  I taught Sunday school and became a Deacon.  As I get older I start to "hang" with the wrong crowd.  I don't know why, I just moved away from God.  I, while on drugs, kill someone one night.  I never ask for forgivness as I lay there and die by leathal injection.  So I go on to be with Christ because I once accepted Christ?  Or, was I never saved to begin with?  I don't buy that I was never saved.  I changed my life, I did as God said but one day I just changed.  I am not trying to argue, just understand.  I know I am viewing this from a mortal mind but I just can't see me getting to Heaven under these situations.  These are fictional situations!


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## NUTT (Sep 27, 2004)

I would say that if you got on the wrong side and killed someone or committed any kind of sin that if you were truly saved you would be under so much conviction from the HOLY SPIRIT that you could not stay on the other side for long. If you committ sin and never felt remorse then you might remain on the wrong side of life and one could question if you were ever really saved. NUTT


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## Vernon Holt (Sep 27, 2004)

Randy, you make it difficult.  I don't have all the answers, but I can tell you this much.  God hates sin.  Unrepented sins will separate man from God for eternity.  God sent his Son to be the propitiation (atoning sacrifice) as a clear means of dealing with the matter of sin.

All men are sinners, Christians as well as non-Christians.  The only difference is that the Christian has an advocate who maketh intercession in our behalf.  When our sins are dealt with in this manner, they are removed and God remembers them no more.  It is as though they never occurred.

Back to your example, and it is a good one for the simple reason that it happens.  If this person was my friend, my neighbor, or my blood brother, I would be greatly concerned for his salvation.  Aren't we glad that we will not be required to sit in judgement in such a case.  God on the other hand has at his hand all of the facts regarding a life.

Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.  It does not come by way of works (living a good life, teaching a SS Class, or being a Deacon).  It comes by way of making a public profession of faith, accepting him as Lord of your life, being obedient to Christ's commands, and sharing one's faith with others.

Salvation is for keeps.  It begins at the moment that we are saved and last for eternity.  All of this is contingent upon it being genuine.  Christ is able to save to the uttermost, as many as come unto him.

Vernon


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## Randy (Sep 27, 2004)

That is why I am here Vernon!  To ask those hard questions. :   These are the kinds of things I wrestle with on occaision.  Yes I know there is faith and maybe some time that is the only answer, "have faith."  It is just that in my growth, I come up with these questions that I sometimes can not put my hand on in the Bible!  I like to hear others opinions/thoughts.  Just trying to GROW!

I started to ask another one here but will not hijack this thread.  I'll start another.


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## PWalls (Sep 27, 2004)

Thanks for your replies.

Randy,
If you accepted Christ as your savior and was saved, then I don't see how you can do what you said in your example. When you are saved, you change. That change is the evidence of your salvation. You die to your old nature and begin (or are born into) your new nature. Your new nature wants to be a good Christian and follow the ways of Christ and his teachings. You can't just change back. The Holy Spirit within you would not let you do that just all of a sudden or on a whim. I would have to question whether you were truly saved or truly gave your life to Christ in your example below.

Just my thoughts.


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## Keith48 (Sep 27, 2004)

Luke 8:13 makes clear the fact that believers can lose their salvation. It says some "believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away." Revelation 22:19 says "If anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life, and in the holy city." How can someone have a share in that city if they are not saved? Right here it says that it CAN be taken away.

 There are numerous other passages taht suggest the same - John 15:6, 1 Peter 1:16; Hebrews 12:14, Luke 14:16-24.

 It sounds like some of you are precribing the the idea that a person can repeat a prayer and never live in faith or obedience - two foundational principals of salvation - but rather live in sin and still have a part of eternal life with God. 

 Why even take a chance? Some people want to know where the boundary is so they can live as close to it as possible so they can sneak in. Don't be deceived; God is not mocked. I do believe you can lose your salvation, but I also say that it is very hard to do without trying to. However, obedience to God's word is fundamental to the "Christian" life. If you live a life of obedience to the Word, you have nothing to worry about.


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## Todd E (Sep 27, 2004)

Sitting on both sides of this fence are many notable Godly men. If ya'll are interested, I have a list of scriptures for both sides of this fence......

The No Way and The Yes You Can
The Can't Lose It and The Can Lose It

Throw out the "Once Saved, Always Saved" phrase because there is a wrong thought process behind/about that statement. 

This is one of those issues that is questioned continually. It requires indepth study by the individual and allowing The Holy Spirit to talk to them and show them.

What do I believe? One things for sure......................if you never had it, you can't lose it.


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## Dudley Do-Wrong (Sep 27, 2004)

There are serious arguments on both sides and there are some pitfalls as well.
If someone believes that he can lose his salvation then he might fall into the error of trying to keep his salvation by what he does. This is a serious error (Gal. 3:1-3). On the other hand, if he believed he could not lose his salvation then, he might fall into the error of sinning willfully because he believes it can’t be lost no matter how much he sins.  The proper understanding of salvation is that works play no part in it (Rom. 4:5), that it is a free gift (Rom. 6:23), and that it is received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9). Once we are saved we are to live a holy life (1 Thess. 4:7).
Whether you believe you can or cannot lose your salvation does not affect your salvation, this is important to understand. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Your salvation isn’t dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.
There are on the surface good verses for both sides of the argument. There are verses that seem to suggest that it is possible to lose your salvation: 2 Pet. 2:1; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 10:26; 6:4_6; Ps. 69:28, and there are also verses that seem to say you cannot lose your salvation: John 10:27_28; Heb. 13:5; Matt. 7:21_23; 1 John 2:19; Rom. 8:38_39.
I personally do not believe one can lose his/her salvation, a person cannot undo what God has done.  A person's salvation IS a free gift from God, it was made possible by Jesus and not by anything we (as humans) can or have done. Remember, as some have previously stated, once a person is saved, that person is a new creation.  As Paul puts it "I no longer live, Jesus Christ now lives in me". 
On the day of judgment when some seek salvation based upon their works Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you" (Matt. 7:21-23). They were never known, that is, they were never saved although they appeared, from the human perspective, to be saved. Jesus says that His sheep will "never perish but have eternal life" (John 10:28).  How can eternal life be eternal if it can be lost particularly when Jesus said that they will never perish.  Also, Paul says that nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God (Rom. 8:38-39).


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## hpurvis (Sep 28, 2004)

I have a question.

You have a child. That child is a good child for a while, then disobeys, does all kind of things that are wrong, you dis own them, they dis own you and all the things that sometimes happen.

But wait a minute. It doesn't matter what they have done, they are still your child. You can't dis own them. No matter what a childs does they are still your child. Same with God. If you are his you are and if you not you not. Now there are consequences of sin or disobedience, but it is not eternal separation from God for a believer. I agree with a former post that said if you're truly saved you will not do those sins like murder, etc. I still mess up ocasionally, but it is a mess up and not intentional sin. The flesh sins but the spirt does not. I, being a Christian do not entertain the thoughts of the world. The Holy Spirit keeps me from intentional sinning. There are only 2 kinds of people in this world. Saints and aints. Lost or Found. Blind or seeing. You are one of the other and not floating in between every time you sin. Now salvation does not give you a license to sin.

John chapter 17 says a  lot, so does John 3:16 and following.

I am a believer in eternal security.

Question to those who believe you can lose you salvation. Why do you walk around with that burden on you? The Son came to set you free and if you are in Him you are free indeed. How can you have any peace? The peace that passeth all understanding is the peace in the heart of a believer. There will not be peace on earth until Jesus returns and establishes His Kingdon, but a believer is to have peace in his heart, despite all the things that are going on around him/her. If I had to worry every moment about whether or not I was going to heaven or ****, I would just as soon be lost and live like the world and die and got to **** with out worrying about it. Life is too short to live in misery and defeat.

Hope I haven't rambled too much. I have tried to say a lot in a few words but it is hard to explain and to  and even harder to understand.


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## Randy (Sep 28, 2004)

I have an answer!  I don't walk around with that burden it is a question that I have.  I just have a hard time (call it lack of faith, some do) believing that I or anybody else can be saved and when we turn away from God and do what we want to do and never repent He will let me in any way!  I guess that is just me being mortal?


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## Keith48 (Sep 28, 2004)

hpurvis said:
			
		

> Question to those who believe you can lose you salvation. Why do you walk around with that burden on you? The Son came to set you free and if you are in Him you are free indeed. How can you have any peace? The peace that passeth all understanding is the peace in the heart of a believer. There will not be peace on earth until Jesus returns and establishes His Kingdon, but a believer is to have peace in his heart, despite all the things that are going on around him/her. If I had to worry every moment about whether or not I was going to heaven or ****, I would just as soon be lost and live like the world and die and got to **** with out worrying about it. Life is too short to live in misery and defeat.



Hilton,

You know my true friendship with and respect for you, so please know that I am not being confrontational. The Bible is very clear on living a life of obedience and holiness. I do not consider the sacrafice that Jesus made to be a common thing; that is, I do not live my life like I want to knowing that all I have to do is ask forgiveness. Hebrews 10:26-27 says, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries."

Salvation is not something that is a delicate matter that we must be careful to hold onto. I believe that it is very hard to lose your salvation. But the Bible is clear as I noted in my previous post and backed up with scripture that we can go from redemption to destruction. Those scriptures are very clear.

But aside from the fact of whether or not you can lose it, why even try? With all God gave for me on Calvary, it is no burden to try to please Him with a life of obedience. I have decided and live my life by the fact that there is NOTHING good for me outside of God's will for my life. Too many people use the twisted teachings and twist the Bible to validate their unholy lifestyles, and I feel that the teachings on eternal salvation has given too many people what they feel is a free pass into heaven, so they can go live however they want to. God's concern is not with what is confortable or easy for us. His concern is redemption. Period.


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## Randy (Sep 28, 2004)

Keith,
You actually said it better than I could.  That is my whole question really.  I was brought up in the Baptist religion and told you could not loose your salvation.  However, I have been told that if you strayed from God, you were not saved to start with.  That seems to be the defense.

I truly believe that some people do get saved and for what ever reason turn their backs on God.  I have a hard time believing that if they do and they do not turn around and repent before death they can not get to Heaven.  I am not talking about those of us who sin and ask for forgivness on a daily basis.  I am talking about those that literally turn their backs on God and never turn around again.  I believe that there are those that are truely saved at one time but then turn their backs on God for some reason?


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## mpowell (Sep 28, 2004)

i feel if you are truly saved--and God knows what's in you heart and whether you honestly want to accept Him--you will always be saved.

i do believe there are those who say they are saved but who God might disagree with on that point!


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## Madsnooker (Sep 28, 2004)

It is possible to fall away after becoming a christian...

*Hebrews 6:4 * For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



_This guy was a christian member of the Corinthian church...._
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 


I do believe as many of you do that your salvation is hard to lose, and that it would be one's own choice to deny Him.  I would have to count His blood as an 'unholy thing'.


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## Todd E (Sep 28, 2004)

Keith,

Out of all the many posts you have written(they've been good), that last paragraph was the most well written, most impacting, straight to the point, easy to understand part of a post. Thanks for bringing it across the way you did. As I said, there are many scriptures for both sides and many Godly men on both sides. Does the Bible contradict itself on this issue? I say NO. Do I feel you can lose it? NO. Is this an issue that would pit me against Keith or any other believer? NO. There are many lost souls out there who just need to find salvation in Christ.


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## Derek (Sep 28, 2004)

I don't think that people realize that being a "good person" is not going to get you into heaven.  Being "religious" will not get you into heaven either.  Also, when we get to heaven it is not going to be divided by denomination.  It will be all born again believers.  I do not believe in denominations.  God never meant for the church (his people) to be divided.


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## robema31 (Sep 28, 2004)

*Salvation*

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. John 10:27-29

I think the real question here is, were you really in the Father's hand to begin with. If we sin, we know it. You stated that if you go out and kill someone and end up with the death penalty, would you still end up in heaven.

I believe there is more to it than just that, God in some way was tryinig to reach out to that person to prevent the life that they were heading towards. 

Sometimes it is so easy for us to judge others and their behaviour rather than dive into every circumstance or situation that person has come across.

I have met people who believe that a child molester can not receive salvation if they repent while in prison. Who are we to determine who God gives grace to and who He should not give it too.

With that all being said, who are any of us to receive His gift of grace. If He chooses to keep us until the day of redemption, we need to rejoice and be thankful. 

Here is a question for you, what if you lost your salvation everytime you sinned??? Hopefully on the day that you die, you accepted Christ for the umpteenth millionth time and you are on the good side and not the bad. Just ramblings from another believer.


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## Madsnooker (Sep 28, 2004)

Robema,

As I stated previously, I think it is very hard to lose your salvation, but what I have read in the new testament, it can happen but it's your choice.

You don't lose your salvation becuase you slip up and sin. What I'm talking about is those that sin willingly over time can fall away.


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## hpurvis (Sep 28, 2004)

*Keith*

Hilton,

You know my true friendship with and respect for you, so please know that I am not being confrontational. The Bible is very clear on living a life of obedience and holiness. I do not consider the sacrafice that Jesus made to be a common thing; that is, I do not live my life like I want to knowing that all I have to do is ask forgiveness. Hebrews 10:26-27 says, "For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment, and a fury of fire which will consume the adversaries."

Thanks for the kind words. I appreciate the fact that we can discuss serious things and not get all bent out of shape. I also hope no one thoguth I was confontational as I did not intend to be. I respect your's and all opinions.

My take on Heb 10:26-27 is this. "For if we sin deliberately(willfully or continue) after receiving the knowledge of the truth(Jesus), there no longer remains a sacrifice(Jesus) for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgment(God's wrath and discipline on us), and a fury of fire(God's flaming retribution and indignation) which will consume the adversaries."

Now I see nothing in that verse about losing you salvation.

Now being Baptist, I was brought up and taught the eternal security of the believer. See I don't think a loving God will give us salvation only to take it back. Now if I willfully sin then I will pay the consequences of my sin(as God determines) and not Jesus, because I would in effect be crucifying him all over and I believe he died once and once was good enough.


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## Ga-Spur (Sep 28, 2004)

These are good thought provoking post.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 29, 2004)

Did anyone have a comment on Madsnooker's post of the 1 Corinthians 5 verse???

I Corinthians 5:1-5
1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 *To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. * 

this guy was a christian already....as stated in verse one.    He was part of the Corinthian church...

Bandy


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## coastga (Sep 29, 2004)

For those who believe you can not lose your salvation, God says "he will bot your name out of the Lambs book of Life" -----------here is the Jaw-breaker, for your name to be blotted out, it had to be in the lamb's book of life first. So, who is in the Lambs book of life?-----All those redeamed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

Amen!

Live holy and righteous before the LORD!


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## coastga (Sep 29, 2004)

BANDERSNATCH.

This is what that scripture means (I Corinthians 5:5) is that you turn the person over to Satan So that the person will come back to Christ and repent, that the spirit maybe saved. Remember the parable about the protical Son? Same thing, the flesh was given over to rioughtes living but the spirit was saved when he came back to the father.

GO HOLY GHOST GO!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 29, 2004)

so if they didn't come back to Christ and repent, then their spirit would not be saved?

Bandy


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## mpowell (Sep 29, 2004)

bandy,

personally, i think repentance is BIG.  we're all sinners, yes.  but, IMO, we HAVE to ask for forgiveness and fight those sins!  God will help us.

i'm going to share something a little personal here, but . . .

my older brother leads the "alternative lifestyle" so to speak.  now, i know many don't think someone like him could be a Chrisitian, be saved, or possibly go to Heaven.  and, i'd appreciate those that read this DON'T turn this thread into a gay bashing thread!  that's not what Christians do.  anyway, his only sin that makes him any different than me is his choice of lifestyle.  he's was raised the same, attended church the same, same loving parents, etc.  now, where he lives in california, he's a very involved member of the episcopal church where he lives.  he teaches Bible study, attends sundays/wednesdays, and for all intents and purposes he's does a much better job of living a Christian life than i do!  i'll confess that.

but, my sticking point with him is his obvious choice to live a lifestyle that is a sin with NO repentance.  to me, it's like thumbing your nose at the Lord.  if you sin, you must recognize your sins, ask forgiveness, and let God help you overcome your sins.  if you don't do this, then i don't think you're truly trusting God to lead your life as a saved person would.


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## Keith48 (Sep 29, 2004)

This not meant as gay-bashing, because I do not bash anyone. But if your brother is a homosexual, I can tell you with all certainty that he will NOT go to heaven. How can I be certain? Because the Bible is very clear. There is no interpretation needed, but I will interpret it anyway.

The passage is 1 Corinthians 6: 9-10 " Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, *nor homosexuals*, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God (NKJV)."  Now when you interpret that, it actually means, "Neither fornicators, nor idolators, nor adulterers, *nor homosexuals*, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God."

But yet, he can repent and be saved! Now a question for all you that hold to eternal security - Can a person accept Jesus and be defined in this list and still retain their salvation? I honestly just want to know how you come to that belief. I know someone that was an evangelist that led many people to Jesus. He is now a practicing homosexual living in sin and does not hold to Biblical truth. Will he go to heaven?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 29, 2004)

KM,

My understanding is that the can't-ever-lose-your-salvation group believes that references to "inheriting the Kingdom of God" means only that their share of the inheritance will be a lot lower than someone who kept theirself clean.   They see a difference between 'eternal life" and 'kingdom of God inheritance'.  

Still..having your name 'blotted out of the Lamb's book of life' and "that the spirit MIGHT be saved in the day of the Lord" are scary and nearly point-blank warnings to not turn away from Christ.

interesting discussion....

Bandy


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## PWalls (Sep 29, 2004)

I know I am new and all, but how can you accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and then all of a sudden do these things that have been listed above?

There is a physical and spiritual change in a person that occurs when he gives his life to Christ and accepts Him in. That is a fact as I am walking proof of it (plus several that I know).

That is where I (and most Baptists) would question the person's original salvation. When you experience a true salvation, you want to please God and Jesus, you want to follow his commandments and spread his Word. I just don't see how you can all of a sudden stop wanting to do that (by becoming or accepting homosexuality or just hauling off and killing someone).


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## Randy (Sep 29, 2004)

PWALLS,
I don't understand how people do it either but, my Baptist upbringing says we all sin an fall short of the Glory of God.  We are just human,  We just do.  Some happen to sin more than others.  I really don't know what makes a person turn his/her back on God other than as God says.  The way is narrow and hard!  Some just can not keep up the hard work.


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## garndawg (Sep 29, 2004)

For some reason today, I've really felt to the need to write a lot!   

Can you lose your salvation?  I'm not sure that's the way to phrase it.  I prefer:

Q; Can you give your Salvation back if you decide you don't want it?

A: Probably not.  I think that some people, when presented with the Gospel, play around with it for a while.  Treat Grace like some kind of mind puzzle, trying to find the holes in the logic.  I guess they walk the isle for whatever reason, but don't really commit.  Kinda' like a conditional acceptance, with the option of a 30-day return policy.  Seems most make up their minds quickly, at or maybe even before the Altar Call.  Those others take years.  But sooner or later, everyone either Accepts or Rejects Grace absolutely.  

I'm told that Grace is a gift that I can either accept or reject freely.  It's either I can do it own my own Thankyouverymuch, or I-can't-do-it you-have-to-do-it-for-me-God.  Paul says that when you finally make that choice, you exchange your sinful nature for a life of Grace.  Or, as Paul phrases it, you are no longer slaves to sin, but slaves for Righteousness.  (Romans 6)  God says no one can pluck you out of his grasp, so you can't have it taken away, as someone has already referenced before.

But you can decide if you don't want it in the first place...

That's the way I see it.


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## Vernon Holt (Sep 29, 2004)

*Can You Lose Your Salvation*



			
				BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> Did anyone have a comment on Madsnooker's post of the 1 Corinthians 5 verse???
> [Bandy Quote]''this guy was a christian already....as stated in verse one. He was part of the Corinthian church"...
> ******************************************
> I have no comment concerning Bandy's post, but I will comment on 1 Cor 5.
> ...


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## hpurvis (Sep 29, 2004)

*Keith*

I know someone that was an evangelist that led many people to Jesus. He is now a practicing homosexual living in sin and does not hold to Biblical truth. Will he go to heaven?

How do you know he was saved. I know Pastors, Deacons, SS teachers, etc that are not saved, but claim to be. There are false teachers all around.

Only God knows for sure. I cannot willfully sin without God getting all over me. If I even think of it I get strong vibes from the Holy Spirit. There is absolutley no way I can willfully sin, the Holy Spirit is hollering and screaming at me, NO , NO , NO.


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## Keith48 (Sep 29, 2004)

Hilton,

I absolutely agree 100%!!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 30, 2004)

It amazes me at the number of people who think that just because someone gets saved and accepts Christ that they instantly become unable to fall into 'bad sin'.   I've been saved since I was like 13 and trust me, I have to continually guard myself....especially when it comes to women!   

In reference to the I Cor 5 scriptures, I could easily do the same kind of thing if I'm not careful.    Married or not, and I'm sure many of you out there agree....when a leggy blonde with a rack walks by I look like the rest of you!  Satan doesn't quit tempting you when you accept Jesus.....   Or am I alone here?   

To say that the guy in I Cor 5 could never have been saved....that's rediculous!    To say otherwise is to build a strawman....it never says that he was anything but a member of the church....and the Corinthian church was 'proud' that God's grace was covering this sin......

Bandy


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## garndawg (Sep 30, 2004)

I agree with Bandersnatch's statment about constantly having to guard yourself.  Especially around women.

I'm wondering, though, about my ability to sin w/o guilt.  I can't pursue that '10', because I'll get sick at my stomach about the thought of breaking Christ's heart.  Not to mention my wife's.  There are guys who don't seem to have as much trouble with that.  Beats me how they accomplish that feat and still think they're pursuing Christ.  : 

My men's group has a 3-second rule.  If you've looked at eye candy for three seconds, you should feel under conviction.  If you don't, you might want to find out why.

The Book is full of examples of men after God who fell off.   David, Samson, Abram, etc.  God will help me resist Temptation, but only if I want/ask Him too.  If I am willfully disobediant,   God will let me follow my own path, but I shouldn't be surprised when He lowers the Boom on me.    He's told me before hand what's coming.


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## PWalls (Sep 30, 2004)

Bandersnatch,

I don't think anyone here has said that just because we are saved that we become unable to sin.

Everyone of us is a sinner, plain and simple. The biggest difference is that now that we have Christ inside us, we have a choice, to sin or not. Before a person is saved, there is no choice. They don't know anything differently other than to continue to live in their sin.

What I disagree with you is that you don't "fall" into any sin. Sin is a wilfull disobediance to God's Word. When that long-legged blonde walks by, I am sure everyone looks at her. However, there is a huge difference in just looking and staring and wishing and picturing the two of you in your wife's bed going at it. That is adultery of the heart which is a sin. I have a Christian friend that tells me to develop a bouncing eye (that is to look but then bounce off and not think about it anymore).

Anyway, Sin is not accidental, nor do you fall into it. It is a choice a person. If a person can easily make that choice, then I question their true salvation.

Do I sin? Yes. Is it my choice? Yes. Do I ask for and receive forgiveness when I do sin? Yes.


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## duckbill (Sep 30, 2004)

Man, we've got some awefully confident Christians on here!  Folks, when you become saved you just placed a big bullseye on your back.  Satan has no need to attack non-Christians.  He stands much more to gain by causing us to slip.  For a Christian to sin in front of non-Christians, the damage is deep.  
Do not be fooled.  We will not be sinless until we meet Him in Heaven.
The story of the prodigul son speaks the loudest in my opinion.  Here is a father and his child (we,as Christians are now children of God).  The child willfully chooses to abandon his relationship for the ways of sin.  Did the relationship ever change?  Absolutely not.  Did he suffer from his consequences? Yes.  Important - he lost his inheritance, but never lost his place in his father's house.

Folks, the closer we walk with God the better we live as Christians.  Not every one walks close to God and that is where they get in trouble.  It happens to ALL of us.


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## Keith48 (Sep 30, 2004)

PWalls,

 Very well said!! 

 I first heard the "bounce your eyes" deal in a life-changing book for me. It is called, "Every Man's Battle." We do have a choice as to whether or not we look. And sometimes it is very hard not to. But we are responsible for our own actions. It takes discipline to do (and trust me, I have not "arrived!"), but to be a *discipl*e, you must be *discipl*ined!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 30, 2004)

Well...that is where we disagree.   I believe a christian can 'fall' into sin.   Satan is subtle....and a man can get into big sin a little at a time.    A man doesn't wake up one day and say "I think I'll destroy my family today over an affair"  

Also, all sin is not a willful disobedience.    There are sins that we are unaware of....I forget the word that is used in the OT for known sin and unknown sin.  (Maybe someone can help me out here)    There are many times that I'm driving down the road and i'm going 5-10 miles over the speed limit and never have a clue until I look down at the meter.....not willful, but unintentional.    

Anyway....I'm glad that we can discuss things like this and stay 'brothers'.    

you guys are   

Bandy


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## robema31 (Sep 30, 2004)

*1 Cor 10:13*

I believe this verse should sum up the whole conversation of known sin. If we know that we are tempted, God does provide a way out. You are correct in stating that we have known sin & unknown sin, my 3 year old is selfish, has a temper and does not share his toys, however, there is an age when he recognizes this as sin and is held accountable for that sin.

To use your analogy of speeding, yes if I get pulled over there would be consequences for that action. Whose fault was it that I was speeding? Mine. The same is true in sin, it is noones choice in my life to sin but mine. 

I believe that God is gracious enough to help us by the Holy Spirit understand the times in our life when we sin. It is our responsibility to how we respond, do we repent or do we ignore the Holy Spirit. Jesus stated that there in only one unpardonable sin and that was grieving the Holy Spirit. I take that to mean that if we ignore His pleas for us to repent, how can we receive salvation in the first place.

I believe there are a lot of people out there who are fooled into believing they are saved because they said a little prayer or were dunked in a baptistry when they were small. The fact is there was no repentance, no forgiveness and in a sense no salvation. True salvation only comes through true repentance.


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## hpurvis (Sep 30, 2004)

I finally found one of the books I have been looking for.

Dr. Charles Stanley wrote a book: Eternal Security- Can You be Sure?

This would be good reading for any of you who wonder about eternal security.

One point he makes on the Hebrews 10:26-31 section is number 1 often times it is taken out of context and that when he made the sacrifice he made it once and for all and there is no more sacrifice. If there was then he would have to be nailed to the cross again. Also he ask the question: which of your sins did he die for and which ones did he not die for. 

you may want to look at Hebrews 10:12-14 also.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 30, 2004)

I've read the 'Eternal Security' book by Stanley....and I think he does a good job of covering scriptures that point at eternal salvation, but to the best of my memory he does not address the scriptures that seem to show that you can lose it, as mentioned in previous posts.  (1 Cor 5, Hebrews 6:4,etc)

I believe that he also says that to have one's name "blotted out of the Lamb's book of life" means only that someone will lose their physical life.   That is far fetched if you ask me....   : 

Bandy


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## PWalls (Oct 1, 2004)

Great thread. I also love a place where we can talk about these issues.

I gotta head out of town for the next couple of days so I'll see you guys later.

One parting shot however, if you believe that you can just "fall" into sin or that Satan is so powerful that he can make that happen, do you doubt the power of the Holy Spirit within you to prevent that from happening. If you have a relationship with God based on a strong faith and open communication, then I still don't see how it can happen.

Anyway, Bandersnatch, I'm with you. Awesome place to talk with your brothers.


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## dave (Oct 2, 2004)

*Loss of salvation*

Like most topics discussed in the Canon (aka Man's Bible), there's a lot of room for agreement and disagreement. 

I personally believe that once saved, always saved.


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## edge (Oct 11, 2004)

Mr. Holt,

Again I find myself agreeing with you to the point that I didn't even read past your second post. You sound like you have been around a long time...!
Not to say that you are always right, just that I haven't found a whole lot to argue with you about yet.  : Interesting replies. 

Read some more...REFRESHING that this topic can be discussed in a candid and mature manner. And I've learned that alot of people on this board are as I am...a very imperfect man made perfect in God's eyes through Christ. But no where near perfect in the world's or my mind!


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## CRANEMAN (Oct 13, 2004)

AT ONE POINT IN TIME SATAN WAS ONE OF GOD'S GREATEST ANGLES. HE WAS CAST OUT OF HEAVEN. I'D SAY HE LOST HIS SALVATION, WOULDN'T YOU?


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