# College athlete's union



## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

Get ready for big changes in how the ncaa and college football in particular do business.  Players from Northwestern  have filed to have representation and it's going to snowball from here.

Given the amount of money that top programs are generating its going to be tough to argue that the players should be denied the opportunity to capitalize on the value of their talents.

This ain't going away.


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## CRIMINOLES (Jan 29, 2014)

I say let all if them get paid !! It ain't fair only bama can pay their players !! Lol


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

They are going to get paid.  You can take that to the bank.  The question is: by who?  

One of the simpler solutions is to let football players go pro at any time just like basketball, baseball, golf, etc etc.  Its the restriction on earning potential due to the agreement between the NCAA and NFL that is going to be difficult to defend.

For the biggest majority the scholarship is fair compensation.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 29, 2014)

How are the schools who are struggling financially going to pay these athletes?


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> How are the schools who are struggling financially going to pay these athletes?



They won't.   The big time athletes will go to the programs that can.


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

For the record the athletes at Northwestern and their representative say its not about the money, but IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 29, 2014)

weagle said:


> They won't.   The big time athletes will go to the programs that can.



Then it won't happen.


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Then it won't happen.



It IS happening.

The money has gotten so big that there is no way that the athletes are not going to get fair compensation for their talents.  

If the coach is worth $5 million a year what's the fair value of the 85 players?


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## RipperIII (Jan 29, 2014)

Is anyone else surprised that a team in the Heart of 
Chicago is the first to "unionize?"


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## riprap (Jan 29, 2014)

You think they will get their tutors to make up their picket signs?


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## southGAlefty (Jan 29, 2014)

Hog wash in my opinion. Not necessarily opposed to structuring scholarships differently so that all athletes get a share but monetary compensation is - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Playing ball collegiately or at any level for that matter is a privilege!


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

southGAlefty said:


> Hog wash in my opinion. Not necessarily opposed to structuring scholarships differently so that all athletes get a share but monetary compensation is - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -. Playing ball collegiately or at any level for that matter is a privilege!



So you think athletes shouldn't be able to earn money based on their worth?  How about singers?  Race car drivers?  Actors? Writers?


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## RipperIII (Jan 29, 2014)

weagle said:


> So you think athletes shouldn't be able to earn money based on their worth?  How about singers?  Race car drivers?  Actors? Writers?



HOw many players on each team ever play a down, or get a try-out for the pros?

Now, if you only pay them,...who is going to block for them, tackle, kick, practice...

...and for the one millionth time,...how much is the training, coaching, re-hab, marketing worth? let alone the education?


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

Its worth spending $5+ million on a coach so its worth a lot for the players.  I don't know the number but its a lot.  For the sake of argument lets say $40k per player.  That's $3.4 million.  Drop in the bucket for Bama Auburn UGA etc


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## BrotherBadger (Jan 29, 2014)

This won't work. You won't get enough teams at enough universities to go along with it. Personally I don't have a problem with paying the kids(most major programs/boosters are doing it anyways). NCAA football had been nothing more than a minor league system for the NFL for years now. Most of these kids aren't coming to school to get a degree, they are coming because they want to pay football and play in the NFL. Let's take away the fake pretense that these kids are mostly "student athletes"



RipperIII said:


> Is anyone else surprised that a team in the Heart of
> Chicago is the first to "unionize?"



Northwestern isn't in the heart of Chicago, it's in Evanston which is a suburb to the north.


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## BrotherBadger (Jan 29, 2014)

weagle said:


> Its worth spending $5+ million on a coach so its worth a lot for the players.  I don't know the number but its a lot.  For the sake of argument lets say $40k per player.  That's $3.4 million.  Drop in the bucket for Bama Auburn UGA etc



Heck, you could possibly cut that number in half. I'd bet $20,000 would get it done if you agree to cover any medical bills due to football injuries(which is apparently one off the main complaints). That's $1.7 million.


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## weagle (Jan 29, 2014)

I have no idea what the system is going to be but it is going to change.  If the universities are smart they will get out in front of this.  If they dig in and think they are going to be able to continue to prevent these players from having a job, from getting any compensation from marketing, from going pro based on collusion between the NCAA and NFL etc then they are going to lose and kill the golden goose while doing so.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 30, 2014)

weagle said:


> It IS happening.
> 
> The money has gotten so big that there is no way that the athletes are not going to get fair compensation for their talents.
> 
> If the coach is worth $5 million a year what's the fair value of the 85 players?



Won't work.  If the kids are paid, it will be a tiny number.  If you pay the football players, you will have to pay the water polo team team.
If the schools are forced to pay the players, the schools will turn around and have the players pay for their education, housing, food etc.  You had better hope your home state has good football talent, because they won't be wanting to pay out of state tuition.

These football programs have done far more good for these kids than harm.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 30, 2014)

weagle said:


> I have no idea what the system is going to be but it is going to change.  If the universities are smart they will get out in front of this.  If they dig in and think they are going to be able to continue to prevent these players from having a job, from getting any compensation from marketing, from going pro based on collusion between the NCAA and NFL etc then they are going to lose and kill the golden goose while doing so.



They will let them work before paying them out of their own pockets.


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## tjl1388 (Jan 30, 2014)

The small private schools are going to get HAMMERED if this comes to fruition.


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## RipperIII (Jan 30, 2014)

BrotherBadger said:


> This won't work. You won't get enough teams at enough universities to go along with it. Personally I don't have a problem with paying the kids(most major programs/boosters are doing it anyways). NCAA football had been nothing more than a minor league system for the NFL for years now. Most of these kids aren't coming to school to get a degree, they are coming because they want to pay football and play in the NFL. Let's take away the fake pretense that these kids are mostly "student athletes"
> 
> 
> 
> Northwestern isn't in the heart of Chicago, it's in Evanston which is a suburb to the north.



you got my point...hopefully


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## biggdogg (Jan 30, 2014)

It will happen and you will see and even bigger divide between the top tier schools and the 2nd tier. Like TJL said, small private schools won't stand a chance.


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## Palmetto (Jan 30, 2014)

weagle said:


> So you think athletes shouldn't be able to earn money based on their worth?  How about singers?  Race car drivers?  Actors? Writers?



PRO athletes should be paid and they are. Kids in college that sing in a choral class, or are drama majors or English majors don't get paid. They are learning a skill to get a job in that field and get paid.

Athletes choose to play the sport at the collegiate level either with the goal of going pro or because they love the game.

They are in college to get an education so they can make money down the line.


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## tjl1388 (Jan 30, 2014)

Palmetto said:


> PRO athletes should be paid and they are. Kids in college that sing in a choral class, or are drama majors or English majors don't get paid. They are learning a skill to get a job in that field and get paid.
> 
> Athletes choose to play the sport at the collegiate level either with the goal of going pro or because they love the game.
> 
> They are in college to get an education so they can make money down the line.



This...


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## Rebel Yell (Jan 30, 2014)

One of two things happen....


A) The NCAA dissolves and the universities can do as they see fit.

or

B) My favorite.  The NCAA let's them unionize, locks them out, and brings in "scabs" that will play for a scholarship.

I have no problem letting the players have jobs or even paying the full cost of college with a stipend included, but not just striaght up paying them.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 30, 2014)

Buncha Democrats.


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## weagle (Jan 30, 2014)

Palmetto said:


> PRO athletes should be paid and they are. Kids in college that sing in a choral class, or are drama majors or English majors don't get paid. They are learning a skill to get a job in that field and get paid.
> 
> Athletes choose to play the sport at the collegiate level either with the goal of going pro or because they love the game.
> 
> They are in college to get an education so they can make money down the line.



If a kid is a singer in college and is good enough to get paid then there is nothing keeping them from getting what they are worth.

If a kid is in Drama and is good enough to get paid, then there is nothing keeping them from getting what they are worth.

If an English major writes a top selling novel then they are not prevented from reaping the financial rewards.

Football players can not go pro until the NCAA says they can.  Of course that is after the University has benefited to the tune of millions of dollars

Football players can not have a job at the car wash or they loose their eligibility.

Universities do not recruit players  for the purpose of providing them an education.  They recruit them for one reason only: to play football.  

Right now the Universities have a Monopoly on hundreds of Millions of dollars worth of athletic talent.  They are not going to relinquish that willfully, but they better make some changes before it gets to a courtroom and some judge says pay the boys what they are worth.


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## weagle (Jan 30, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Buncha Democrats.



Running the NCAA.  Yes, Elitist Liberals.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 30, 2014)

I've been saying for years either go back to real student athletes, or just be honest about what it really is and pay them.

There is simply too much money involved to ever go back to real student atheletes, they will eventually be paid.


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## alaustin1865 (Jan 30, 2014)

If colleges and universities can figure out how to pay the rest of their current employees, they can figure out how to put a few more employees on the payroll and pay them as well.


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## Beartrkkr (Jan 30, 2014)

weagle said:


> Running the NCAA.  Yes, Elitist Liberals.



Let's say Johnny Football can go to the pros right out of HS.  Who is gonna pay him big money right out of HS? Not exactly the same as a baseball pitcher that can hit 95mph on the radar kind of gamble. Maybe he gets signed to a scout team for the minimum if he's lucky.  However, he gets to go to a major university in the SEC and show his talents to the world. Immediately his worth goes up into the millions after a great season.  Does this happen if he goes to Southern North Dakota State Technical College? Not likely by any stretch of the imagination.  He might not even get drafted in that case. All this money schools get allows him the facilities and coaches to improve his talents and show them to the world.

Short term pain for long-term gain.   I guarantee he ain't "Johnny Football" except to his HS teammates if he doesn't go to a major D1 school and seen by millions on TV.

A reasonable stipend might be needed for the guys that don't have any money to go on a date after the game, but to say stars should be paid their "worth" is a real slippery slope.   I bet Title IX is just waiting for someone to pay football players money and not offer to give the same amount to the women athletes.

Of course the other option is to attend college like most of the rest of us, play intramural sports (hoping you don't get hurt), and pay your way during and after attending college.


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## weagle (Jan 30, 2014)

The example of Johnny Football is a good one.  Who should decide when he should be able to go pro? You? me? the Liberal establishment running the NCAA?  Or is this America and we get to make our own decisions.  Right now the equation is completely one sided as the NCAA has a monopoly on talent that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars.

This is not true in any other sport: Basketball, golf, Hockey. baseball.

Why is football different?  Easy answer: Money.


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## weagle (Jan 30, 2014)

From the NCAA's Web page:


Most Profitable College Football Teams 	Revenue 	Profit
Texas 	$93,942,815 	$68,830,484
Georgia 	$70,838,539 	$52,529,885
Penn State 	$70,208,584 	$50,427,645
Michigan 	$63,189,417 	$44,861,184
Florida 	$68,715,750 	$44,258,193


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## weagle (Jan 30, 2014)

I also want to say that I am not for unionization.  I want the Universities to get out in front of this and recognize that they need to compensate the talent at an appropriate level.  If they continue to hide behind the "amateur athletics" banner it is not going to end well.   There is absolutely nothing "Amateur" about division 1 football.


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## Beartrkkr (Jan 31, 2014)

I say they do like baseball.  Go right out of HS and roll the dice, or go to college and have to stay 3 years.  The basketball model is not what I would say is ideal.  The one and done has really hurt college bball in my opinion.


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## BrotherBadger (Jan 31, 2014)

RipperIII said:


> you got my point...hopefully



I assumed that the unionista mentality was what you were getting at, but just in case I threw that in there. No harm no foul right?





Beartrkkr said:


> I say they do like baseball.  Go right out of HS and roll the dice, or go to college and have to stay 3 years.  The basketball model is not what I would say is ideal.  The one and done has really hurt college bball in my opinion.



Could always set up a "draft and follow" like hockey does. If you are drafted before you graduate college, you can either sign with the team, or go to college and put off signing. The kids keep their eligibility and at the end of every season they can decide if they want to sign with that team or not(no matter what, they remain property of that team for a certain number of years). Some kids will go as freshmen, some will go as Jrs, some will sign right out of HS. All depends on if they think they are ready.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> I also want to say that I am not for unionization.  I want the Universities to get out in front of this and recognize that they need to compensate the talent at an appropriate level.  If they continue to hide behind the "amateur athletics" banner it is not going to end well.   There is absolutely nothing "Amateur" about division 1 football.



Entitlement mentality.  I hope they get burned.


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## skeeter24 (Jan 31, 2014)

Beartrkkr said:


> I say they do like baseball.  Go right out of HS and roll the dice, or go to college and have to stay 3 years.



This^^^^^


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## greene_dawg (Jan 31, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I've been saying for years either go back to real student athletes, or just be honest about what it really is and pay them.
> 
> There is simply too much money involved to ever go back to real student atheletes, they will eventually be paid.



Exactly. If they go to real students then the product will suffer and so will the bottom line. Will never happen. The other option is to throw the players a bone.


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## Rebel Yell (Jan 31, 2014)

BrotherBadger said:


> I assumed that the unionista mentality was what you were getting at, but just in case I threw that in there. No harm no foul right?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What is this hockey you speak of?


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Entitlement mentality.  I hope they get burned.



I'm not sure I understand.

Do you think the Universities and NCAA feel they are entitled to profit from the athletes talents, or that the athletes feel entitled to profit from their own talents?


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

You don't understand?  They are already getting a free education, one that many couldn't afford, not to mention that many wouldn't get into school based on grades alone.  Their response is, pay me?

What's that saying about the gift horse...


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> You don't understand?  They are already getting a free education, one that many couldn't afford, not to mention that many wouldn't get into school based on grades alone.  Their response is, pay me?
> 
> What's that saying about the gift horse...



Ok,  I understand.  Your opinion is that it is the function of the governing authority, in this case the NCAA, to determine what an individual's talents are worth.  The athletes should be thankful for the privilege of participating and should be happy to receive compensation that is worth pennies on the dollar to the fair market value.

Do you feel that Jason Heyward had an entitlement attitude when he signed with the Braves instead of playing in college for 3 years?

Does Taylor Swift have an entitlement attitude because she didn't go sing in the college chorus for 3 years before she started selling records?

Why do you think that D-1 colleges should hold a monopoly of the top Football talent for 3 years after they graduate from highschool?


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## alaustin1865 (Jan 31, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> You don't understand?  They are already getting a free education, one that many couldn't afford, not to mention that many wouldn't get into school based on grades alone.  Their response is, pay me?
> 
> What's that saying about the gift horse...



They get a free education which cost very little to nothing to the University as far as actual costs are concerned (just for the football players).  The value the football players are providing the University far exceeds what they are getting in return.


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## alaustin1865 (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> Ok,  I understand.  Your opinion is that it is the function of the governing authority, in this case the NCAA, to determine what an individual's talents are worth.  The athletes should be thankful for the privilege of participating and should be happy to receive compensation that is worth pennies on the dollar to the fair market value.
> 
> Do you feel that Jason Heyward had an entitlement attitude when he signed with the Braves instead of playing in college for 3 years?
> 
> ...



I do also think that we have two seperate issues here.  My opinion is that the players should be paid by the Universities.  How they come up with the payment plan can be debated.  

The NFL has a rule that doesn't allow anyone in their league until they have been out of high school for 3 years.  It is their league and they are entitled to have their own rules.  I personally think 3 years out of high school is a flawed system.  I think it would be more beneficial to have an age requirement, but it is more or less the same.  Some kids graduate high school early, some kids graduate at a later age.  I think it would be a better policy to have an age requirement of 20 or 21 than it would be to have 3 years out of high school.  Just my opinion.


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

alaustin1865 said:


> I do also think that we have two seperate issues here.  My opinion is that the players should be paid by the Universities.  How they come up with the payment plan can be debated.
> 
> The NFL has a rule that doesn't allow anyone in their league until they have been out of high school for 3 years.  It is their league and they are entitled to have their own rules.  I personally think 3 years out of high school is a flawed system.  I think it would be more beneficial to have an age requirement, but it is more or less the same.  Some kids graduate high school early, some kids graduate at a later age.  I think it would be a better policy to have an age requirement of 20 or 21 than it would be to have 3 years out of high school.  Just my opinion.



I agree there are several ways to skin this cat.  The current  system isn't going to cut it.


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## alaustin1865 (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> I agree there are several ways to skin this cat.  The current  system isn't going to cut it.



I agree.  I think the best way to do it would be to put money into a fund and the players have that at their disposal upon graduation.  No money exchanged hands until the player graduates.  It puts more emphasis on going to class and players graduating (student athletes).  If a player decides to leave school before graduating (to go to the NFL), then that player forfeits their opportunity to the money.  They know the money is there and if they think it is more lucritive to pursue other monies, then that is their choice.

I have also seen where people say you are going to have to pay all college athletes and what about title IX, blah, blah, blah.  Most other sports are cash flow negative and need the football programs to suppliment their respective sports.  Why should these other athletes get any more than a scholarship that wouldn't be there if it weren't for another sport subsidizing their scholarships in the first place?


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> Ok,  I understand.  Your opinion is that it is the function of the governing authority, in this case the NCAA, to determine what an individual's talents are worth.  The athletes should be thankful for the privilege of participating and should be happy to receive compensation that is worth pennies on the dollar to the fair market value.
> 
> The NFL is dealing with enough issues with physically mature players in the league and being sued, I doubt they want to have to babysit a bunch of high school graduates and the issues with them getting destroyed by NFL athletes.
> 
> ...



This isn't just a college issue, the NFL has rules to prevent folks from entering the draft.


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## southGAlefty (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> So you think athletes shouldn't be able to earn money based on their worth?  How about singers?  Race car drivers?  Actors? Writers?



Hey bud I played college baseball, and no I don't think college athletes should be paid to play. Not outside of scholarships, housing, on-campus meal plans. When I was playing I was proud to be a part of something most kids didn't get a chance to do. Didn't have any entitlement thoughts and still don't. If you're gonna pay college athletes you gotta pay high school athletes too right?


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## Rebel Yell (Jan 31, 2014)

alaustin1865 said:


> I do also think that we have two seperate issues here.  My opinion is that the players should be paid by the Universities.  How they come up with the payment plan can be debated.
> 
> The NFL has a rule that doesn't allow anyone in their league until they have been out of high school for 3 years.  It is their league and they are entitled to have their own rules.  I personally think 3 years out of high school is a flawed system.  I think it would be more beneficial to have an age requirement, but it is more or less the same.  Some kids graduate high school early, some kids graduate at a later age.  I think it would be a better policy to have an age requirement of 20 or 21 than it would be to have 3 years out of high school.  Just my opinion.



Of course, there is always another option out there right now.

If you want to get paid right out of high school, go play in Canada for three years and enter the draft.


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

southGAlefty said:


> Hey bud I played college baseball, and no I don't think college athletes should be paid to play. Not outside of scholarships, housing, on-campus meal plans. When I was playing I was proud to be a part of something most kids didn't get a chance to do. Didn't have any entitlement thoughts and still don't. If you're gonna pay college athletes you gotta pay high school athletes too right?



If the Yankees had offered you a Million$ would you have settled for a College scholarship.  How much money did your university make off of the Baseball program?  I'm guessing zero.

Why do you think earning something is an entitlement? It is the very basis of capitalism.  

I'm assuming you get paid to do something now.  Why do you feel "entitled" to be paid.  Why don't you just work for the "pride"

FWIW, I got my degree from Auburn on a football scholarship.  I was an "A" student and had academic scholarship offers from Vanderbilt and Duke among others. I was proud to earn my way through college playing football and it was a win win for me.  I can guarantee you that playing for coach Dye no one ever felt like they were being given anything.  You earned it.


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

Rebel Yell said:


> Of course, there is always another option out there right now.
> 
> If you want to get paid right out of high school, go play in Canada for three years and enter the draft.



Maybe the Chinese can get in on it too


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> Why do you think earning something is an entitlement? .



These players earned a free education, free housing and free food.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> From the NCAA's Web page:
> 
> 
> Most Profitable College Football Teams 	Revenue 	Profit
> ...



http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/05/07/ncaa-finances-subsidies/2142443/


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> Why do you think earning something is an entitlement? It is the very basis of capitalism.



Then I hope you have no problem with the 3rd string long snapper making a fraction of what the starting qb is to receive.


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Then I hope you have no problem with the 3rd string long snapper making a fraction of what the starting qb is to receive.



I do not have a problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with the special teams coach making $150K while the head coach makes $5 million.

One of my team mates was Bo Jackson.  He was worth millions, and I was worth tuition, room and board.  I did not feel entitled to any of his value.


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## weagle (Jan 31, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> These players earned a free education, free housing and free food.



You'll have to explain to me the concept of how you earn something that is free.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> I do not have a problem with that.  Nor do I have a problem with the special teams coach making $150K while the head coach makes $5 million.
> 
> One of my team mates was Bo Jackson.  He was worth millions, and I was worth tuition, room and board.  I did not feel entitled to any of his value.



Yes, you were worth tuition, room and board, just like all amateur athletes are...nothing more, nothing less.
Once these kids start getting paid, we are no longer dealing with amateurs.


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## rex upshaw (Jan 31, 2014)

weagle said:


> You'll have to explain to me the concept of how you earn something that is free.



Earned an education.  Better?


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## alaustin1865 (Jan 31, 2014)

Rebel Yell said:


> Of course, there is always another option out there right now.
> 
> If you want to get paid right out of high school, go play in Canada for three years and enter the draft.



Yes, that would be another option.  Or, you could go to college and get paid under the table like most of them do now.


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## alaustin1865 (Jan 31, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/college/2013/05/07/ncaa-finances-subsidies/2142443/



The reason the schools are getting subsidies is because the football programs are not creating enough cash flow to cover all the other sports that are in the red.  These budget issues are another issue.  Still has nothing to do with the fact that the football program and their players are creating more value than they are receiving individually.


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## BrotherBadger (Jan 31, 2014)

Rebel Yell said:


> What is this hockey you speak of?



I think you guys call it ice soccer.


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## southGAlefty (Feb 10, 2014)

weagle said:


> If the Yankees had offered you a Million$ would you have settled for a College scholarship.  How much money did your university make off of the Baseball program?  I'm guessing zero.
> 
> Why do you think earning something is an entitlement? It is the very basis of capitalism.
> 
> ...



Well FWIW I earned my college degree as a walk-on pitcher at Valdosta State and later on scholarship at a smaller private university that you probably wouldn't know the name of. As to how much money my program made for the universities I attended I have no idea but I'm sure it wasn't what the football program at Auburn does. That is irrelevant though in my opinion as I was still a college athlete, just like the people you're arguing should be paid to play. I put in the same amount of time I guarantee you and wasn't given anything. 

You still haven't addressed the question of why not pay high school athletes? They earn money for their schools too right? I know HS football is a huge revenue generator for my high school. What's the difference?


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## alaustin1865 (Feb 10, 2014)

southGAlefty said:


> Well FWIW I earned my college degree as a walk-on pitcher at Valdosta State and later on scholarship at a smaller private university that you probably wouldn't know the name of. As to how much money my program made for the universities I attended I have no idea but I'm sure it wasn't what the football program at Auburn does. That is irrelevant though in my opinion as I was still a college athlete, just like the people you're arguing should be paid to play. I put in the same amount of time I guarantee you and wasn't given anything.
> 
> You still haven't addressed the question of why not pay high school athletes? They earn money for their schools too right? I know HS football is a huge revenue generator for my high school. What's the difference?



The revenue created in high school vs college is not even close.


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## southGAlefty (Feb 10, 2014)

Relative to the expense you better believe it is!


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## alaustin1865 (Feb 10, 2014)

southGAlefty said:


> Relative to the expense you better believe it is!



Yeah and high school coaches have to "teach".


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## weagle (Feb 10, 2014)

southGAlefty said:


> Well FWIW I earned my college degree as a walk-on pitcher at Valdosta State and later on scholarship at a smaller private university that you probably wouldn't know the name of. As to how much money my program made for the universities I attended I have no idea but I'm sure it wasn't what the football program at Auburn does. That is irrelevant though in my opinion as I was still a college athlete, just like the people you're arguing should be paid to play. I put in the same amount of time I guarantee you and wasn't given anything.
> 
> You still haven't addressed the question of why not pay high school athletes? They earn money for their schools too right? I know HS football is a huge revenue generator for my high school. What's the difference?



Value has nothing to do with how hard a person works, or school teachers would earn as much as Doctors.  

If HS football starts generating hundreds of millions of dollars and the coaches make $5+ million then I would be willing to pay them too.

I don't know of any High Schools players who are banned from working to earn some money.  When I was in High School I worked 2 different jobs that I could work into my schedule.  D1 Football players are not allowed to have jobs.


----------



## southGAlefty (Feb 10, 2014)

Well D2 baseball players are allowed to so I guess I can't speak to that. But fwiw HS head coaches down here make in the 6 figure range while some teachers don't make half that. It's all relative though, high school programs don't have the operating expenses college teams have either so profit % is a relevant argument IMO. High school players still put a lot of time in and are earning a lot of revenue for their school so based on your way of thinking deserve a cut.


----------



## weagle (Feb 10, 2014)

southGAlefty said:


> Well D2 baseball players are allowed to so I guess I can't speak to that. But fwiw HS head coaches down here make in the 6 figure range while some teachers don't make half that. It's all relative though, high school programs don't have the operating expenses college teams have either so profit % is a relevant argument IMO. High school players still put a lot of time in and are earning a lot of revenue for their school so based on your way of thinking deserve a cut.



If you can't comprehend the difference in an SEC Football team raking in hundreds of Millions of dollars with Coaches making $5+ million vs a top level HS football program that might generate a few grand I'm sure you'll never understand my view.

The bottom line is: Change is coming.  Probably sooner rather than later.


----------



## southGAlefty (Feb 10, 2014)

Agree to disagree.


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## Beartrkkr (Feb 15, 2014)

How much is the marketing of college football worth.  Would we know someone like Jadeveon Clowney... had he not played on the "stage" that is major college football.  The system allowed him to showcase his talent.  Say he could go pro right out of HS.  Is he worth millions?  Not likely.  Probably a few teams might take a chance, but he's only proven he's a man among HS players, not professional athletes.  By playing major college football in front of television audiences, we get to see these "stars" emerge in front of us that translate into value later when they sign NFL contracts.  That kind of marketing is worth a ton of money.


----------



## weagle (Feb 15, 2014)

Beartrkkr said:


> How much is the marketing of college football worth.  Would we know someone like Jadeveon Clowney... had he not played on the "stage" that is major college football.  The system allowed him to showcase his talent.  Say he could go pro right out of HS.  Is he worth millions?  Not likely.  Probably a few teams might take a chance, but he's only proven he's a man among HS players, not professional athletes.  By playing major college football in front of television audiences, we get to see these "stars" emerge in front of us that translate into value later when they sign NFL contracts.  That kind of marketing is worth a ton of money.



The exact same "marketing" is the only reason the head coach is worth $5+ million dollars per year.  The justification for paying $5 million for a coach is because a winning program earns the university $100 million.  

The players are worth more than they are currently getting.  How much that is and how it will be paid is what will be determined in the next few years.  I guarantee you it won't be just  tuition room and board.


----------



## Beartrkkr (Feb 15, 2014)

Wait until Title IX gets their hands on this.  I guarantee you will be paying the women's rowing team the same as the football players.

Football players have no right to any money that the school earns other than what was agreed upon when you sign the dotted line.  Your choice is to play or not.  It's not like these athletes have been taken hostage and forced to play against their will.


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## weagle (Feb 15, 2014)

Beartrkkr said:


> Wait until Title IX gets their hands on this.  I guarantee you will be paying the women's rowing team the same as the football players.
> 
> Football players have no right to any money that the school earns other than what was agreed upon when you sign the dotted line.  Your choice is to play or not.  It's not like these athletes have been taken hostage and forced to play against their will.



The money that Premier D1 football teams are generating is fast outpacing the federal funds that is the reason for title IX.  It's the worst type of socialist hogwash.  

And you are correct about the choice to play or not.   But they also have the right to negotiate the best deal they can get.  Colleges have always paid the players in the form of scholarships room and board.  They pretend that is not pay so that they can maintain the "amateur athlete" facade.  But "amateur athletes" aren't coached by men making $5 million a year at programs making $100's of million per year.   The big programs will find a way to start paying some real money over the next few years.


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## weagle (Feb 23, 2014)

It's coming.  The toothpaste is out of the tube.  

http://www.auburntigers.com/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/022314aaa.html


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## Danuwoa (Feb 24, 2014)

RipperIII said:


> Is anyone else surprised that a team in the Heart of
> Chicago is the first to "unionize?"



I know right?

Ain't no way this happens yet.  It may at some point but not yet.

And if it does it will be the end.  It will be nothi g but NFL light and I hate NFL football.


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## bruiserbuckgrower (Feb 24, 2014)

These kids get an education that's free. It is what it is. I don't think they should be paid.  Most wouldn't be worth the money going to them.


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## egomaniac247 (Feb 24, 2014)

A degree from Duke costs $60,000 per year.  Other schools are similar, I just happen to know that one off hand.

I am not a talented enough athlete and hence, if I were to attend Duke, I'd have to pay that $60k.

If I was a talented athlete, I would get that tuition for free.

That's their compensation IMO.  A LOT of people in this country either wish they could afford that or are in serious debt because they did attend.

I think people write that tuition piece off as not important, when it is.

I do think that players should be able to sign private marketing agreements if they want.  This way schools don't have to pay all players just b/c they play a sport and the private market would dictate which players get paid based on their marketability.


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## greene_dawg (Feb 24, 2014)

Can we at least stop saying that these guys are getting "tuition for free" or a "free education"? These guys are up before most any of us to earn their way and most are still working at it long aver the average joe gets off of work. It's not "free".


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## rex upshaw (Feb 25, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> Can we at least stop saying that these guys are getting "tuition for free" or a "free education"? These guys are up before most any of us to earn their way and most are still working at it long aver the average joe gets off of work. It's not "free".



Call it what you will, but they don't pay for tuition, or their meals, or lodging, or for tutors etc.  I don't feel like they are getting a raw deal.  This education that the majority of these guys are receiving, is one that without the school offering to pick up their tuition, room, etc., they would never be able to afford.

Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth...


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## greene_dawg (Feb 25, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Call it what you will, but they don't pay for tuition, or their meals, or lodging, or for tutors etc.  I don't feel like they are getting a raw deal.  This education that the majority of these guys are receiving, is one that without the school offering to pick up their tuition, room, etc., they would never be able to afford.
> 
> Talk about looking a gift horse in the mouth...



Would it be fair to say that you get free money from your employer?


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## rex upshaw (Feb 25, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> Would it be fair to say that you get free money from your employer?



No.  My contract states that due to my work, I get paid. My employer doesn't give me a gas card, pay for my lodging, pay for my continuing education, pay for my meals etc., nor do I expect them to.

 College sports are still amateur athletics and once money is exchanged, it is no longer the case.  

The argument that since the school is making money, then the kids should be paid a lump sum of money is crazy.  They are receiving something of monetary value, it just so happens to be in the form of tuition (quite expensive for out of state kids), lodging, meals and tutoring.  If they want to pay these kids, then they need to do away with the scholarships and let these kids families pay for the things that are currently handed to them.


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## greene_dawg (Feb 25, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> the things that are currently handed to them.



See, this is where we disagree. I say these guys earn every cent of the tuition, books, etc... you say it is "handed to them".


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## rex upshaw (Feb 25, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> See, this is where we disagree. I say these guys earn every cent of the tuition, books, etc... you say it is "handed to them".



OK, so they earn it.  They earned their tuition, food, tutors and lodging.  Why do they also deserved to be paid on top of this?


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## weagle (Feb 25, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> OK, so they earn it.  They earned their tuition, food, tutors and lodging.  Why do they also deserved to be paid on top of this?



Because the monetary value of their talents is worth many times what they are being compensated. 

The very simple solution is to allow players to go pro whenever they are ready, just like baseball, basketball, golf etc, etc.  The NCAA and NFL's collusion to prevent players from going pro until a certain number of years after their HS eligibility should be done away with.   Problem solved.  

I'd like to see the NFL draft underclassmen and sign contracts for delayed compensation.


----------



## rex upshaw (Feb 25, 2014)

weagle said:


> Because the monetary value of their talents is worth many times what they are being compensated.
> 
> The very simple solution is to allow players to go pro whenever they are ready, just like baseball, basketball, golf etc, etc.  The NCAA and NFL's collusion to prevent players from going pro until a certain number of years after their HS eligibility should be done away with.   Problem solved.
> 
> I'd like to see the NFL draft underclassmen and sign contracts for delayed compensation.



Then no scholarships should be offered.


----------



## weagle (Feb 25, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Then no scholarships should be offered.



Then they shouldn't pay the coaches and tickets should be free and we should give the advertising minutes away for free and ...... well you see how that makes no logical sense.

It's going to hit the fan soon and I have confidence that the folks in charge at the NCAA will blow it.


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## weagle (Mar 18, 2014)

Lawsuit filed yesterday.  The entire structure of Big time College athletics is about to change.

From the article below.

"In the most direct challenge yet to the NCAA's longstanding economic model, high-profile sports labor attorney Jeffrey Kessler filed an antitrust claim Monday in a New Jersey federal court on behalf of a group of college basketball and football players, arguing the association has unlawfully capped player compensation at the value of an athletic scholarship."

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...jeffrey-kessler-challenges-ncaa-amateur-model


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## rex upshaw (Mar 20, 2014)

Hope it blows up in their face.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 20, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> Hope it blows up in their face.



It won't. They are the product.


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## riprap (Mar 20, 2014)

Tattoo artists are about to get a raise around college campuses.


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## weagle (Mar 26, 2014)

NLRB ruled in favor of the Northwestern University players today.

I love SEC football and if they don't get out in front of this issue it's going to get ugly.  I see a lot of folks sticking their head in the sand thinking this is going away or it is far down the road.  

It's here, Now.


----------



## rex upshaw (Mar 26, 2014)

When is the first strike set to occur?


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> When is the first strike set to occur?



If it gets to that then the folks at the top of the NCAA and the big conferences should be tarred and feathered for total incompetency.  

There are relatively simple solutions, but for many administrators, coming to terms with the fact that a  scholarship is not even close to fair compensation for talent that is raking in hundreds of millions of dollars for their institution is going to be a tough pill to swallow.


----------



## rex upshaw (Mar 27, 2014)

What is fair compensation?  Will each player be paid the same?  Is there gonna be a cap?  Free agency?  Will some schools do away with sports due to this?

What role will the NCAA play?   Will athletes now have agents in 8th grade?  

This is an absolute train wreck.


----------



## skeeter24 (Mar 27, 2014)

weagle said:


> coming to terms with the fact that a  scholarship is not even close to fair compensation for talent that is raking in hundreds of millions of dollars for their institution is going to be a tough pill to swallow.



Whining and sense of entitlement mentality at work.  This is no different than the employee who makes $60K a year complaining because the company made millions and millions and his talent was a contributing factor.  It's not fair.....well boo hoo

I was a college athlete and think this is ridiculous.....if they don't like it they don't have to participate


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## Matthew6 (Mar 27, 2014)

What you might see are schools closing their athletic departments. So be it. If they can't see the value in what they are getting then we need to shut it down. I will not go to a game where players get paid. I may be in the minority, but that how I feel.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

skeeter24 said:


> Whining and sense of entitlement mentality at work.  This is no different than the employee who makes $60K a year complaining because the company made millions and millions and his talent was a contributing factor.  It's not fair.....well boo hoo



Except your example is protected by things such as workers comp. If he breaks his back at work he will get paid a certain amount for his lifetime. What happens when you tear your knee up four times playing CFB? You get a pat on the back and a good luck. I'm as anti union as most here but your example is a bad one IMO. There is no maintenance mechanic in the world who consumers pay 100's of millions a year to watch turn a wrench, where advertisers pay 100's of millions to advertise at his workplace, where TV networks fight each other to land the next multi million dollar tv contract for him, or where people pay $80 a pop to wear his work uniform with the name "Craig" on the front of it. Certainly no multimillion dollar video gaming industry designed around maintenance mechanics. If that were the case, "Craig" would be getting screwed too. 

I don't hear anyone saying that these guys need to make tons of money but they should be taken care of if their injury last beyond their college careers and have enough money to take their girlfriend out on Friday nights.


----------



## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

Matthew6 said:


> What you might see are schools closing their athletic departments. So be it. If they can't see the value in what they are getting then we need to shut it down. I will not go to a game where players get paid. I may be in the minority, but that how I feel.



And yet you have no problem with the coach making $8 million or the assistant coaches making high six figures?

The entitlement mentality is not on the players,  what they need is market freedom.  The structure they play under now is as socialist as you could ever design, run by elitist liberal egg heads who think they are entitled to the talents of these athletes at the price that they and they alone control.  

Why should a player not be able to have a job while he is in College?  That's Un- American.

Why should the Universities be able to dictate to a kid when he is ready to go pro? That's liberal Socialist thinking at it's finest.

I am strongly anti union and strongly free market.

The plantation system that is in place now is going away.


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

skeeter24 said:


> Whining and sense of entitlement mentality at work.  This is no different than the employee who makes $60K a year complaining because the company made millions and millions and his talent was a contributing factor.  It's not fair.....well boo hoo
> 
> I was a college athlete and think this is ridiculous.....if they don't like it they don't have to participate



So if another company offered him $150K should he be forced to stay at his current company?  

Should I be able to decide what you are worth for your own good?  That's a very liberal attitude.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

Well... at the end of the day I think it will end up with a few more rights for college athletes, especially those that make Universities and the NCAA millions. I don't see players getting agents and the like. There are too many different state laws for one and let's remember that NWestern is a private institution. Georgia, as an example, has a right to work law that prevents state "employees" from being able to unionize.


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

Here are some very simple ideas I'd like to see put in place.

Allow athletes to get a job and earn money.

Offer 4 year guaranteed scholarships with non competes.  If a player decides to leave early then if he plays elsewhere (NFL) the university must be compensated.   The University is obligated to the 4 years even if the player doesn't pan out to be the football player they envisioned.

Allow players to test the waters regarding the draft without losing their eligibility.

Allow the NFL to sign and pay underclassmen even while they continue to play in college.  There's no reason the NFL should be getting a free farm league.

Title 9 is a communist plot.  It needs to go away.


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## rex upshaw (Mar 27, 2014)

weagle said:


> Why should the Universities be able to dictate to a kid when he is ready to go pro? That's liberal Socialist thinking at it's finest.



The NFL dictates when they will accept a kid, based on how many years removed from High School he is.  That isn't university policy.

Free agency was/is a bad thing in pro sports, will it suck the life out of college sports now too?


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## rex upshaw (Mar 27, 2014)

weagle said:


> Here are some very simple ideas I'd like to see put in place.
> 
> Allow athletes to get a job and earn money.
> 
> ...



If you have pro teams paying college players, that would be a disaster.


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## T.Woods (Mar 27, 2014)

weagle said:


> And yet you have no problem with the coach making $8 million or the assistant coaches making high six figures?
> 
> The entitlement mentality is not on the players,  what they need is market freedom.  The structure they play under now is as socialist as you could ever design, run by elitist liberal egg heads who think they are entitled to the talents of these athletes at the price that they and they alone control.
> 
> ...



There has been a handful of football players that could have went pro and succeeded in the NFL ever. You apparently played with one of them. How many in your freshman class could have? The NFL doesn't have a minor league  system where a high school kid could sign out of high school and go play until he was ready to contribute. High School football players signing pro out of high school is absurd.
College football is really no different than an a apprenticeship program. A company  that has a apprenticeship program signs up a kid out of high school. The kid works and makes money for the company while earning peanuts in compensation. Yes he's being compensated but the real reason he is there is to hone his skills so he can go "pro" skilled and ready. I know your argument is the athletes are making millions for the university. My argument is the university is giving a athlete a chance to make his millions while providing the athlete something to fall back on(College Education) while also providing living, food, health care, etc.
I do agree that the kids should be able to have a job while playing, but the boosters screwed that up years ago with having kids work fake jobs.


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## alphachief (Mar 27, 2014)

Bottom line for me...I hate unions and all they stand for (these days).  If FSU at any point unionizes, I'll never support them again and I'll change my handle to one of those "Prince like" signs that means...the member formerly know as Alphachief!


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## tcward (Mar 27, 2014)

T.Woods said:


> There has been a handful of football players that could have went pro and succeeded in the NFL ever. You apparently played with one of them. How many in your freshman class could have? The NFL doesn't have a minor league  system where a high school kid could sign out of high school and go play until he was ready to contribute. High School football players signing pro out of high school is absurd.
> College football is really no different than an a apprenticeship program. A company  that has a apprenticeship program signs up a kid out of high school. The kid works and makes money for the company while earning peanuts in compensation. Yes he's being compensated but the real reason he is there is to hone his skills so he can go "pro" skilled and ready. I know your argument is the athletes are making millions for the university. My argument is the university is giving a athlete a chance to make his millions while providing the athlete something to fall back on(College Education) while also providing living, food, health care, etc.
> I do agree that the kids should be able to have a job while playing, but the boosters screwed that up years ago with having kids work fake jobs.


This^^!! Whatever happened to an education comes FIRST?


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## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

weagle said:


> Here are some very simple ideas I'd like to see put in place.
> 
> Allow athletes to get a job and earn money.
> 
> ...



You lost me on the NFL signing underclassmen...


----------



## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

tcward said:


> This^^!! Whatever happened to an education comes FIRST?



Then actually have student athletes. Kids that can get into school on their own academic merit. Not a kid who runs a 4.3 and can barely graduate public high school. I'm on board but let's not act like the NCAA or these AD's care if these guys turn out to be CEO's. They care about the bottom line which in turn makes them take athletes, not students. They could give two craps about how these kids perform in the classroom other than their eligibility to be on the field on Sat to fill the seats.


----------



## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

T.Woods said:


> There has been a handful of football players that could have went pro and succeeded in the NFL ever. You apparently played with one of them. How many in your freshman class could have? The NFL doesn't have a minor league  system where a high school kid could sign out of high school and go play until he was ready to contribute. High School football players signing pro out of high school is absurd.



If they aren't good enough they don't get drafted.


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## skeeter24 (Mar 27, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> Except your example is protected by things such as workers comp. If he breaks his back at work he will get paid a certain amount for his lifetime. What happens when you tear your knee up four times playing CFB? You get a pat on the back and a good luck. I'm as anti union as most here but your example is a bad one IMO. There is no maintenance mechanic in the world who consumers pay 100's of millions a year to watch turn a wrench, where advertisers pay 100's of millions to advertise at his workplace, where TV networks fight each other to land the next multi million dollar tv contract for him, or where people pay $80 a pop to wear his work uniform with the name "Craig" on the front of it. Certainly no multimillion dollar video gaming industry designed around maintenance mechanics. If that were the case, "Craig" would be getting screwed too.
> 
> I don't hear anyone saying that these guys need to make tons of money but they should be taken care of if their injury last beyond their college careers and have enough money to take their girlfriend out on Friday nights.



What about a program coder at Google developing new alogorithms?  Most of the above apply there.  He gets paid $150K a year when some stockholders rake in millions.

Injuries were luck of the draw.  I accepted that when I played in pee wee, high school, and college.  Only a small percentage of high school athletes get to play college sports.  That was enough incentive for me.  BTW....if they get hurt they can always fall back on that college education they got right


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## skeeter24 (Mar 27, 2014)

weagle said:


> So if another company offered him $150K should he be forced to stay at his current company?
> 
> Should I be able to decide what you are worth for your own good?  That's a very liberal attitude.



They have a right to go pursue whatever they want to.....maybe not an NFL career.  A corporation can require a college degree and you must go obtain one to have that position.  If you don't like it go open your own business or do something else.  No one has a problem with this, but because large money is involved it now changes the equation?

These kids aren't being forced to play college ball.

For the record I believe that they should strike down the 3 year rule in the NFL and let them go straight there if they want to......but not pay college players.


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## skeeter24 (Mar 27, 2014)

Matthew6 said:


> I will not go to a game where players get paid. I may be in the minority, but that how I feel.



This^^^^


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## T.Woods (Mar 27, 2014)

I could see having a across the board "cost of living" stipend for every athlete on scholarship. Enough for groceries, clothes, taking your girlfriend out, etc. If that was the case, it dang sure better be mandated well.

I don't have a problem with the kids making a little of spending money, but there better be limitations or the rich will get richer.


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## tcward (Mar 27, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> Then actually have student athletes. Kids that can get into school on their own academic merit. Not a kid who runs a 4.3 and can barely graduate public high school. I'm on board but let's not act like the NCAA or these AD's care if these guys turn out to be CEO's. They care about the bottom line which in turn makes them take athletes, not students. They could give two craps about how these kids perform in the classroom other than their eligibility to be on the field on Sat to fill the seats.



Student athlete......what a novel idea.


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## tcward (Mar 27, 2014)

Based on the opinions so far from just a few on this forum, I see this ripping college football apart.


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## T.Woods (Mar 27, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> If they aren't good enough they don't get drafted.



Neither does a fifth year senior. I just don't see what anyone gains by letting the kids sign out of high school. 

I think the NFL, NCAA, and the high school athlete would all lose. Yeah there would be rare exceptions but not likely.


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## injun joe (Mar 27, 2014)

Let 'em sign out of high school and let the pro teams form farm leagues. This would benefit the kids that need the money and also the real student athletes who wouldn't have to compete against those who are only in school to play football.
Works for baseball.


----------



## rex upshaw (Mar 27, 2014)

tcward said:


> Based on the opinions so far from just a few on this forum, I see this ripping college football apart.



If it happens, it'll suck bad.  I'll be done with it.  The expense will be passed on to the fans that still choose to go to games.  Those big stadiums might need to think about downsizing.


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

I've thrown some ideas out there.  There are many ways to skin this cat, but it's going get skinned.

If some smart, business minded people step up and take the lead then there will be some equitable solutions.

If the NCAA and College football think they can go forward with a monopoly on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of talent, then it's going to get ugly.


----------



## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

injun joe said:


> Let 'em sign out of high school and let the pro teams form farm leagues. This would benefit the kids that need the money and also the real student athletes who wouldn't have to compete against those who are only in school to play football.
> Works for baseball.



Yep.  A huge percentage of the players do not have the academic credentials to be in College and would actually prefer to play for pay in a farm system.  That's why I think there could be some collaboration between the NFL and Colleges so that the NFL wasn't getting a free farm league.


----------



## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> You lost me on the NFL signing underclassmen...



Just an idea.  Right now the NFL is getting a free ride.  If the NFL thinks a player is a good prospect, I can see them paying some amount of money, (perhaps to the player and the school) to obtain that player's rights (or whatever form the underclassman draft might take)  Then the kid can stay in school, work on his skills, get an education.... etc etc.  He may never pan out as an NFL prospect, but that's what farm leagues are about.


----------



## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

I've thrown some ideas out there.  There are many ways to skin this cat, but it's going get skinned.

If some smart, business minded people step up and take the lead then there will be some equitable solutions.

If the NCAA and College football think they can go forward with a monopoly on hundreds of millions of dollars worth of talent, then it's going to get ugly.


----------



## rex upshaw (Mar 27, 2014)

If they are to be paid, then make them be a 4 yr apprentice, then they can enter the nfl...graduation mandatory.  Give me 4 yrs of proof before becoming a journeyman.


----------



## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> If they are to be paid, then make them be a 4 yr apprentice, then they can enter the nfl...graduation mandatory.  Give me 4 yrs of proof before becoming a journeyman.



People (that's you and me) and corporations are paying the Universities hundreds of millions of dollars based on their talents.   They already have proven and quantifiable value.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

I think it is good that some of you are talking about boycotting CFB if the players unionize. I really and truly like the principled stand. That said, I'd be willing to bet that for years many of you have been going to CFB games. You probably drove a car or truck to that game that was built by a union worker, certainly put gas in the tank that was produced by union workers, and more than likely drank beer at your tailgate that was produced and bottled by union workers.  Seems odd that now that the players are talking of unionizing that it has finally pushed you over the edge.


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## RipperIII (Mar 27, 2014)

neither Herschel, nor Bo would have lasted 2 seasons in the NFL had they been drafted right out of HS....heck even mature they didn't last long, and they were men amongst boys for their generation.
but at least they had earned a hefty salary and nominal insurance to cover injuries,...what do some of you rocket scientist think the entry level HS footballer will garner in salary?
The NFL minimums WILL drop.

HS players to the NFL is one of the most ludicrous ideas to come down this often moronic amalgamation of disjointed "thought" known as the sports forum.

College unions? a sad indictment of the "me" entitlement mentality engendered to this Country for the last 40 years through rampant, self centered "liberalism". I get sick to death of hearing about everyone's "rights", now college athletes, *TEAM* 
athletes at that, whining about all the money "the man" is making off "my skills".
College baseball,...someone care to venture a guess as to the collective $$$ generated by all of College baseball and minor league baseball combined?....it's less than College football alone. Why? poor product.

Ford/Chevy ....no one will change their stance on this topic, but weagle and others of you who support pay/unionization of the players consistently ignore the actual value to the athlete of playing in major college football, even before you account for the free education.
Greed, envy, selfishness all play a big part in this debate...on both sides


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

RipperIII said:


> neither Herschel, nor Bo would have lasted 2 seasons in the NFL had they been drafted right out of HS....heck even mature they didn't last long, and they were men amongst boys for their generation.
> but at least they had earned a hefty salary and nominal insurance to cover injuries,...what do some of you rocket scientist think the entry level HS footballer will garner in salary?
> The NFL minimums WILL drop.
> 
> ...



First Bo or Herschel would have started as Rookies right out of HS and their careers would have been extended by the 4 years (3 for Herschel) they spent in College.  Do not doubt that.  That has nothing to do with this debate.  

I am not for a union.  Unions are for the most part a plague.  They are the symptom and result of a poorly run business: See NCAA

The entitlement in this debate is the folks who think they should be able to decide what another man is worth.  

"Greed, envy, selfishness all play a big part in this debate...on both sides"  Agree 100% as that is the case in almost any business negotiation.


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## fairplayboy (Mar 27, 2014)

So, since they are now considered employees earning wages are we going to tax their scholarship as income? Does employer have to provide health insurance or do they go on Obamacare? What a joke. Yankee Democrates gone mad.


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## tcward (Mar 27, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> I think it is good that some of you are talking about boycotting CFB if the players unionize. I really and truly like the principled stand. That said, I'd be willing to bet that for years many of you have been going to CFB games. You probably drove a car or truck to that game that was built by a union worker, certainly put gas in the tank that was produced by union workers, and more than likely drank beer at your tailgate that was produced and bottled by union workers.  Seems odd that now that the players are talking of unionizing that it has finally pushed you over the edge.


BIG difference. A man has to drive a car......he doesn't have to drink or go to a FB game.


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## tcward (Mar 27, 2014)

rex upshaw said:


> If it happens, it'll suck bad.  I'll be done with it.  The expense will be passed on to the fans that still choose to go to games.  Those big stadiums might need to think about downsizing.



Yep. Mess with the product and see what happens. Just ask NASCAR....


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## Hardwoods (Mar 27, 2014)

tcward said:


> Yep. Mess with the product and see what happens. Just ask NASCAR....



Yep. Terrible for college football imo.


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## Matthew6 (Mar 27, 2014)

Let the players go the nfl out of HS if they want to, but they immediately loose ncaa eligibility forever. Keeps the current rules intact for those wishing to play cfb. We might see a different demographic and higher graduation rate.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

Matthew6 said:


> Let the players go the nfl out of HS if they want to, but they immediately loose ncaa eligibility forever. Keeps the current rules intact for those wishing to play cfb. We might see a different demographic and higher graduation rate.


Wow. We agree on something.  The quality of cfb would suffer greatly and so would the bottom line but I would be fine with it.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 27, 2014)

tcward said:


> BIG difference. A man has to drive a car......he doesn't have to drink or go to a FB game.



The point is that people choose to indirectly support unions everyday by purchasing a product. If you own an american made car you indirectly pay union dues. If you drink practically any american made mass produced beer you indirectly pay union dues. I would venture to say that half of the guns in your and my gun cabinet were... yep... union workers... So why do the same people who buy union made products left and right all of a sudden take a stand when it is cfb?


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## riprap (Mar 27, 2014)

The players should legally be able to earn or receive money if they choose without the university giving it to them. If everybody has their hand out, it wont take long for the boosters to run out of money and level the playing field.


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

riprap said:


> it wont take long for the boosters to run out of money



Yellowman has some deep pockets  

War Eagle


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## weagle (Mar 27, 2014)

riprap said:


> The players should legally be able to earn or receive money if they choose without the university giving it to them.



I think that's one of the easiest first steps.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 28, 2014)

riprap said:


> The players should legally be able to earn or receive money if they choose without the university giving it to them. If everybody has their hand out, it wont take long for the boosters to run out of money and level the playing field.



I would agree with this. Maybe they get a cut of the merchandising deal added to their stipend as an example.


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## RipperIII (Mar 28, 2014)

riprap said:


> The players should legally be able to earn or receive money if they choose without the university giving it to them. If everybody has their hand out, it wont take long for the boosters to run out of money and level the playing field.



It used to be this way, the obvious problems arose...i.e. boosters paying guys to "watch the grass grow" on athletic fields...
I don't have a problem with legit work, or even some type of internships.


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## riprap (Mar 28, 2014)

RipperIII said:


> It used to be this way, the obvious problems arose...i.e. boosters paying guys to "watch the grass grow" on athletic fields...
> I don't have a problem with legit work, or even some type of internships.



"watch the grass grow"?. I don't follow. Seems boosters would want their money on the field winning.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 28, 2014)

riprap said:


> "watch the grass grow"?. I don't follow. Seems boosters would want their money on the field winning.



He's saying that they used to be able to have jobs. Most of those jobs ended up being for boosters where guys were getting paid to do nothing.


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## riprap (Mar 28, 2014)

greene_dawg said:


> He's saying that they used to be able to have jobs. Most of those jobs ended up being for boosters where guys were getting paid to do nothing.



Sounds good to me. Just make sure everyone can do it without the university fitting the bill and make it legal.


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## BrotherBadger (Mar 29, 2014)

tcward said:


> BIG difference. A man has to drive a car......he doesn't have to drink or go to a FB game.



To be fair, no you don't NEED to drive a car(barring you work a job that requires a car, like a delivery man or something). Public transportation(where available), walking, and Bicycles are all options. Move closer to your job if your convictions against unions are THAT strong(or buy a non-union made car). A car makes life easier, it is by no means a necessity. 



> So, since they are now considered employees earning wages are we going to tax their scholarship as income?



You'd have to rewrite the tax code, IIRC. Scholarships are not taxable as of right now. That being said, i don't see it happening since athetic scholarships make up a small percentage of the actual number of scholarships at major universities.

As someone else mentioned, i could easily see this turning into baseball. The NFL will set up a minor league system, and college football will still exist, although with actual students who wish to play sports, not just athletes who are waiting until they are eligible to play in the NFL. Will the quality of play deminish as most of the talent leaves college for the Minors? Sure, but that seems like almost an envitiablity at this point.


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## weagle (Mar 29, 2014)

The sign Coach Saban posted in the Bama locker room reminds you that it's all about the money:







Link to the article:

http://fansided.com/2013/08/03/nick...on-dollars-in-fake-checks-to-recruit-players/


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## riprap (Mar 29, 2014)

weagle said:


> The sign Coach Saban posted in the Bama locker room reminds you that it's all about the money:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If education is so important, then where is the poster of the diplomas.


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## Matthew6 (Mar 29, 2014)

riprap said:


> If education is so important, then where is the poster of the diplomas.



Imagine the fun those Uga check cashers could have if those were hanging on the dog locker room wall.


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## paddlin samurai (Mar 29, 2014)

ticket prices will go up up up


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## MudDucker (Mar 30, 2014)

First, I think this NLRB ruling is as dumb as the administration that has been straining to pack the NLRB with more socialist.

Second, I've said it before, if the players don't have an option of working part time jobs while playing football, there should be something paid to them so that they can have a social life in college.  I'm not talking big money.  Something like the $100 a week they might otherwise earn doing part time work.


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## greene_dawg (Mar 30, 2014)

riprap said:


> If education is so important, then where is the poster of the diplomas.



Because education is a guise when it comes to big time college athletics. Most of these athletic departments don't give two craps how educated these guys are. Are the seats full? Are we getting a killer deal from Nike? How about that TV contract? Then they want to get on the "education" train when it is to their benefit.


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## weagle (Aug 7, 2014)

Looks like the University administrators have decided to get out in front of this issue.

The big 5 conferences are seizing control from the NCAA.  This is the first step to eventually start paying the players.  The "Big 5" will remain affiliated with the NCAA but make no mistake, the conferences, not the NCAA will be calling the shots.  

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/ncaa-approves-autonomy-proposal/


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## Throwback (Aug 8, 2014)

weagle said:


> For the record the athletes at Northwestern and their representative say its not about the money, but IT IS ABOUT THE MONEY.



its about the money FOR THE UNIONS--not the players. 


T


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## Throwback (Aug 8, 2014)

weagle said:


> Looks like the University administrators have decided to get out in front of this issue.
> 
> The big 5 conferences are seizing control from the NCAA.  This is the first step to eventually start paying the players.  The "Big 5" will remain affiliated with the NCAA but make no mistake, the conferences, not the NCAA will be calling the shots.
> 
> http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/ncaa-approves-autonomy-proposal/







along with this please tell me they will give us a REAL national championship system every year


T


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## tjl1388 (Aug 8, 2014)

weagle said:


> Looks like the University administrators have decided to get out in front of this issue.
> 
> The big 5 conferences are seizing control from the NCAA.  This is the first step to eventually start paying the players.  The "Big 5" will remain affiliated with the NCAA but make no mistake, the conferences, not the NCAA will be calling the shots.
> 
> http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/sec-football/ncaa-approves-autonomy-proposal/



This is some of the worst news possible for small private schools in the history of organized sports. 

College football will truly become a pay for play system where money dictates everything. 

While I agree that the NCAA is as bad as they come you have essentially granted the foxes the key to the henhouse.


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## weagle (Aug 8, 2014)

The reality is that Big time College football has not been an amateur sport in many years.  

I love College football and I hope the new organization will be able to maintain the sport that we all love.  

The NCAA trying to stick their head in the sand and not recognize the monetary value of the players was not a winning hand going forward.   I think it will be pretty easy to set up the new structure once everyone quits pretending that they are running an amateur sports league.

My suggestion would be in addition to tuition, room and board to pay the players $40K a year, 4 year contract w/ non compete and add a huge buyout clause if the NFL wanted to draft a player early.


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