# tbg primitive bows ??



## dpoole (Mar 17, 2009)

This past weekend was the first time i attenened a state TBG shoot. I have a question? for a bow to meet the primitive class rules i understand any thing that does not include any glass or fiber is allowed, is this correct? Does not seem quite fair for someone who went to the trouble to work out a self bow having to compete against someone who purchased a laminated bow made of only wood. Also in the primitive class can you use any type of arrow or only wood?


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## fatduckboy (Mar 17, 2009)

wood arrows only but laminated bows are allowed so long as they are all wood or bamboo. 

This is a question that has come up before as well as the question of whether contestants should be allowed to shoot bows they bought as opposed to bows they built themselves. there are no easy answers to this one, there are plenty of arguments on both sides of this particular fence. 

Since Native Americans and early Asian bowmen both shot laminated bows it can't be said they are not primitive so then the question moves to whether a contestant built his own bow. There are selfbow-building competitions including those that require you to build one with a hatchet on the spot. Some would say that is the place for someone to compete as a bowyer and that the primitive shooting classes are to test shooting ability.

I'm not much help on this one because i can see where both opinions have merit.


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## fatduckboy (Mar 17, 2009)

oops, should have said above that i was posting under Wade's handle cause i'm at work. post above is by me, Joel Smith, president, TBG.


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## PAPALAPIN (Mar 17, 2009)

Joel

One point of contention.

You stated "wood arrows only".

Aren't river cane arrows allowed in Primitive?


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## Joe "JC" Coots (Mar 17, 2009)

From our unabridged rules:

"Men’s Primitive: (men of any age) Longbows or recurves that do not contain fiberglass, carbon or any other synthetic material in construction. Epoxy and synthetic adhesives are allowed on laminated bows. Wood or cane arrows only, synthetic strings and plastic nocks allowed."


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## choctawlb (Mar 17, 2009)

Cane arrows are allowed, as well as wood. Again the arrows have to be of a natural material, not a man made one. Two of the competitors were shooting cane arrows in the primitive class this past weekend, Myself and Mrs. Jeaneen. 
Ken


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## fatduckboy (Mar 17, 2009)

yep, sometimes I forget that technically Cane is considered a grass and not wood. sorry

Joel


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## SOS (Mar 17, 2009)

Joel,

I thought I heard someone mention we may even go to self-nocks on the arrows - no plastic allowed next year.  Is there a move afoot or just some folks talking?  I'm considering making a wood bow....and just need to know if I have to practice making self nocks as well.....Steve


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## choctawlb (Mar 17, 2009)

Joel,
Personally I would love to see the "Primitive class " go to no man made epoxies, only sinew and hide glue. Some of the bamboo backed bows I have seen lately are as fast as some of the new glass  longbows and recurves on the market. I already shoot, self nock, cane arrows, and Southeastern two fletch, so , I'm almost purely Primitive. Only thing I have on my bow man made, is a dacron string, and if they changed that requirement to gut, sinew, or rawhide , I wouldn't get upset.  It's all about the fun of shooting with good folks  and enjoying yourselves anyway.
Ken


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## Joe "JC" Coots (Mar 18, 2009)

The problem with multiple classes is the dilution of the competiton. Somehow, someone getting a first place TBG State Championship trophy shooting against 3 people is not the same as someone shooting against 20 (or 30 or 40 etc.). If we had 10+ people in every class we offer it wouldn't be an issue...but we don't. We had to combine multiple classes this year for that very reason. You also have to plan ahead with trophies for the big shoots (Jeff did an awesome job this year). You are never sure if you will have enough for a class to warrant a separate class so you end up with "wasted" trophies (because you probably won't do the same style next year. I think we will probably use the same because we had 10-12 left over trophies). I would dearly love to see enough people at each shoot to warrant 20 classes, but right now, again from the unabridged rules:

"COMPETITIVE CLASSES: Classes may be combined at the discretion of the tournament director if there are not a reasonable number of competitors in each class.

Cubs: (boys and girls to 11 years old) any traditional bow with any arrow material.

Youth: (boys and girls 12-15 years old) any traditional bow with any arrow material.

Men’s Primitive: (men of any age) Longbows or recurves that do not contain fiberglass, carbon or any other synthetic material in construction. Epoxy and synthetic adhesives are allowed on laminated bows. Wood or cane arrows only, synthetic strings and plastic nocks allowed.

Women’s Primitive: (women of any age) Same equipment qualifications as Men’s Primitive.

Men’s Longbow: (men of any age) Longbow with any arrow material.

Women’s Longbow: (women of any age) Longbow with any arrow material.

Men’s Recurve: (men of any age) Recurve with any arrow material.

Women’s Recurve: (women of any age) Recurve with any arrow material.

Seniors: (men and women over the age of 65) Any longbow or recurve with any arrow material."

If you separate out laminated bows from selfbows, there's bound to be someone who says we need to do the same for plastic nocks from selfnocks, synthetic strings from natural fiber, steel points from bone/?, glued fletch from tied fletch, etc. etc. ad nauseam. From the standpoint of practicality, we have to draw the line somewhere with each class. We just used our best judgement in the classes according to past attendance/competitor numbers in each class.

You get us the number of folks that attend the Howard Hill or Tannehill or some of the other very large regional shoots, we'll get you all the classes you can think up.


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## Al33 (Mar 18, 2009)

Very well explained Joe and of course it all makes good sense. Thanks for taking the time to enlighten all here.


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## choctawlb (Mar 18, 2009)

Joe,
If nothing happens between now and then, I hope to have 6 or 7 more folks shooting in the primitive by next year. We'll see if it'll work out , or I guess I'd say if they get their bows made by then.
Ken


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## knap_123 (Mar 18, 2009)

you can make your own  nocks from bone or antler.  and ifyou want to keep it primitive use only stone as a grinder and such instead of a belt sander.


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## RogerB (Mar 18, 2009)

When you have so many classes that everone wins a trophy, what does it mean to win a trophy?
When I registered last Sat. the first thing I did was to disqualify myself, because my arrows didn't meet the weight requirement. But I still had a great tournament.
When folks start measuring their success by if they win a trophy or not, rather than the fun and fellowship they have, how sad.
The point is, while there needs to be classes and inorder to do so a line must be drawn in the sand. Where one person would draw them will always be different from where another would, this doesn't make either person right or wrong, it is just the way it is.
I appauld the leadership of the TBG for being willing to step up and draw those lines. What a difficult and thankless job.


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## choctawlb (Mar 18, 2009)

What I was trying to say , evidently very ineffectively, is if you call a class primitive, make it primitive. Primitive is described as being related to indigenous peoples and their beliefs and practices. Horn, sinew, bone wood,cane, rawhide, and hide glue is primitive. Epoxy and plastic are not products of a primitive culture.  Otherwise just call it class #1, or non-fiberglass backed bow class, and set rules for it as you see fit.  If I have to explain it further, you really wouldn't understand anyway. 
I shoot a self bow to challenge myself, not to challenge the folks I shoot with. I pursue accuracy and skill, in reverence, and respect for my quarry, not to earn recognition from my peers, or a trophy for my wall. I shoot primitive each time I go bowhunting, not just each time I shoot 3 D. I shoot 3D to become a more ethical hunter, by being a better archer and learning my limitations on something that doesn't bleed or suffer from my mistakes.
Ken


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## RogerB (Mar 18, 2009)

choctawlb - do you use anything modern to build your bows, like a steel knife, saw or sandpaper with modern glue to hold the grit on it. Maybe the feathers came from a turkey harvested with a modern gun. I think how the equiptment is made is just as important as what it is made from, if you really want to be "Primitive". As I said, it is just a matter of where "you" wish to draw the line. I understand quite well thank you and need no further explaination!!!


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## choctawlb (Mar 18, 2009)

I am no wise man by any means, but over the past twenty plus years, I see what is called "Traditional Archery" drift further and further from the beginning roots, the tradition that Fred Bear kicked off. No I don't use all primitive tools to make my equipment, but I am headed back in that direction, instead of away from it. As I  learn more, and improve my skills, I further widen my gap with the modern and latest greatest new highest tech gizmos and gadgets. I have to learn methods that were once common knowledge, but not are all but forgotten. I can process my own deer hides primitively into buckskin.  It is one of my goals to one day make a self bow with just a sharp rock. I traded for my first sinew , because I wasn't sure exactly how to procure it from the deer, I now harvest my own from animals I kill using firearms, eventually I hope to harvest some from a deer killed with a stone point. Deer I once butchered with a metal knife, are now processed with a flake of flint, and the backstrap sinew is removed with a tool made from the deers leg bone. As my knapping skills improve, I learn to make more useful tools, that are more primitive. Modern society seeks the easier, quicker, less difficult way to accomplish day to day task. The Native Americans, as well as many other indigenous  cultures started down this path to simplicity by trading with the whiteman, in the late 1600's, they traded on credit, and when they couldn't pay , their land was taken and look  at they are now. Maybe I am just a crazy ole abo, and then again, maybe I'm not.  Progress is not always an improvement.  The tools of the present, are traded for the technology of the future, and we lose the knowledge of the past. Like I said , you wouldn't really understand.
Ken


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## Joe "JC" Coots (Mar 18, 2009)

Ken, I understand your thoughts completely. I'm just of the mind set, to each his own. Your choice of where you draw your line is yours, just like mine is mine...that does not make either of us more right or wrong than the other, this is not a situation of moral consequence. I'm glad there are guys that like to build their own bows, tan hides etc.. I'm glad the old skills aren't lost. But just because I don't choose to participate in those with the same passion you do does not make me "less traditional." Thankfully, there are no real tradpolice to dictate what is traditional and what is not.

My desire to shoot equipment more modern than "primitive" is not caused from any desire to do things "easier, quicker, less difficult", I shoot it simply because that's what I like. Your choices do not make you any "more" or "less" than someone who chooses differently.

The TBG "primitive" class is simply a title. One that best describes the middle of the road of that equipment genre. Just like the longbow class had carbon/composite limbs, metal risers, dramatic reflex/deflex bows as well as simple Hill-style "D" bows, there are definitely opposite ends of the spectrum but if the string touches the bow at only two points, it's a longbow. Same with "primitive", to TBG it's just a title that means no glass/synthetic materials in construction. We don't mean to offend you or anyone else with that description, but as I said earlier, if we had more folks to warrant "not really primitive, almost primitive, kinda primitive, and hard-core primitive" classes we would. Until then, all those will be lumped into simply "primitive".

And on a side note, not to be contrary, but as a Creek I can unequivocally say that the white man took the land etc. by force, with superior firepower and tactics...just like any tribe would have done to another in the time before the yangese came here.  If they had an advantage, they used it to take what they needed/wanted from another weaker tribe. The white man did nothing different. But that's another discussion...


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## schleylures (Mar 18, 2009)

I got a lot to say on this subject, but I can not type that much without a cuss word in it.


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## Axle93 (Mar 19, 2009)

Joe "JC" Coots said:


> Ken, I understand your thoughts completely. I'm just of the mind set, to each his own. Your choice of where you draw your line is yours, just like mine is mine...that does not make either of us more right or wrong than the other, this is not a situation of moral consequence. I'm glad there are guys that like to build their own bows, tan hides etc.. I'm glad the old skills aren't lost. But just because I don't choose to participate in those with the same passion you do does not make me "less traditional." Thankfully, there are no real tradpolice to dictate what is traditional and what is not.
> 
> My desire to shoot equipment more modern than "primitive" is not caused from any desire to do things "easier, quicker, less difficult", I shoot it simply because that's what I like. Your choices do not make you any "more" or "less" than someone who chooses differently.
> 
> ...



I think what Choctaw is trying to say is that it should be more than just a title that someone stuck on something  but that if your going to call it primitive it should truely be primitive and also i think that the tools the equipment is made or prepared by isnt important but that the produce is made to a "primitive standard" or fit the description meaning no modern materials or even styles being in the bow. but they would have use the best tools they had available so why should we?  but its shouldnt be called primitive if it truely isnt.


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## RogerB (Mar 19, 2009)

What I completely understand is there are those in this world that will never be satisfied until the lines are drawn exactly where they want them (just above what they chose to use). The problem is as they change, they want the lines to change with them.
Fred Bear must have been alot older than I thought, seems to me he lived in the 20th century and everytime I saw him on TV he was shooting a recurve bow with a dacron string (Probably would have shot FF if it had been avalible at the time) Not sure exactly what tradition he kicked off, oh yea, using the most modern materials and construction methods avalible at the time!!


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## choctawlb (Mar 19, 2009)

Didn't mean this to turn into the monster it became. I'm a traditionalist, an old schooler, thats just me. I like the old things, and a simpler time. In the future if folks are interested in that, you can ask me about it, and I'll be happy to help you with it,  share it , or show you how it's done. Otherwise I'll just keep it and my opinion to myself. To each his own. See ya'll at the next shoot. I'll most likely be shooting in a class where I ain't guaranteed a trophy.
Ken


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## Jeff Kitchens (Mar 19, 2009)

Ken look forward to seeing you again.  I hope next time I have more time to visit and learn some of those things.  As I told you at the shoot I would love to kill a deer with a bow I made, with a cane arrow and a stone point that I made.  Plus yall sure do know how to cook in those dutch ovens and I hope to have one by the next shoot.


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## Al33 (Mar 19, 2009)

choctawlb said:


> Didn't mean this to turn into the monster it became. I'm a traditionalist, an old schooler, thats just me. I like the old things, and a simpler time. In the future if folks are interested in that, you can ask me about it, and I'll be happy to help you with it,  share it , or show you how it's done. Otherwise I'll just keep it and my opinion to myself. To each his own. See ya'll at the next shoot. I'll most likely be shooting in a class where I ain't guaranteed a trophy.
> Ken


We would never learn much of anything if folks kept their opinions to themselves so keep on keeping on please. No harm no fowl in this thread. As a matter of fact it has been very enlightening with all the insightful comments and opinions. It is good to discuss these things and everyone has done so civilly, but of course I have come to expect that from the traditional archery and ABO enthusiasts that participate here.

You know, I have noticed that traditionalists are some of the most opinionated folks I have ever known. I suspect that is because we are so passionate about what we do we just have to tell folks about it. I know I sometimes come across as a "know-it-all" because I want to share traditional archery fun with others and in so doing get all caught up in telling them what to do and what not to do in an effort to help them shoot better. I sometimes forget that my ways are not the only ways.

Now then I am going to go lobby for another competitive category for our next trad shoot. I want one where everyone has to keep one eye closed and must part their hair down the middle if they have any to part.

Keep the debates coming, we need something to read besides RC and HookedN21 killing pigs all the time.

Just kidding fellas, I love the dead pig hero shots and stories!


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Mar 19, 2009)

Al33 said:


> I sometimes come across as a "know-it-all" because I want to share traditional archery fun with others and in so doing get all caught up in telling them what to do and what not to do in an effort to help them shoot better. I sometimes forget that my ways are not the only ways.
> 
> :





NO! Not you Al. 

Seriously, good post, Al and great thread everyone!


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## Dirty44Dan (Mar 19, 2009)

Hey,  I build all kinds of bows--except fiberglass--and arrows--from wood or cane, but I try to have a combination ready for tournaments that fits the requirements.  You can take the "primitive" label as far as you want to, but eventually you will find that you have done something "modern" without even realizing it.  That is why I got into flintknapping:  to make my own primitive arrows.  But even there some controversy exists over whether copper should be used  to make points rather than stone and antler.  Just relax and enjoy the sport and keep trying new things.


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## dpoole (Mar 19, 2009)

You know i bet even the guys that shoot training wheel bows have different opions about there  equipment as well.


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## Joe "JC" Coots (Mar 19, 2009)

Choctaw and Axle: so what would you suggest we call our current "primitive" class?


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## choctawlb (Mar 19, 2009)

Joe,
I didn't intend to belittle or slam what the TBG does. It is a great organization , and I support it fully. I let another poster"RogerB" get under my skin with his comment about making the classes where everybody will  get a trophy set me off, for that I apologize. In fact I apologize to the group for going off, I'm usually a better person than that.   I meant no disrespect toward your Native Heritage with my comments yesterday, I also have Choctaw ancestors,And am very proud of that . But they were as you well know, tricked and deceived , from their lands in the beginning, later they were driven off with force. In the future I will most likely compete in the Mens Longbow class, but will continue to shoot a selfbow, if that is allowable under the bylaws.
. I am just there to shoot and have fun anyway.
Thank You,
Ken Purdy


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## trad bow (Mar 19, 2009)

Ok, I'll add my little bit to this. First when we drew up the bylaws , we debated this issue and decided that modern tradtional archery started with the advent of fiberglass after WW2. That is also when resins and super glues came into exsitance. The big difference before that was string material. If you look at the archives of the 1800's when field archery was booming the string was the hot issue with linen being dominate. Even further back in time, wars and battles and yes even hunting was dictated by the string material not the bow. Weather had a big influence back then. Laminate bows have been in exsistance for thousanda of years dating back to the Scyliens. I do not know what their prefered glue was but in the Northern Hemicphere hide glue was predominate. OK enough of that. Defining peimitive had to start somewhere so that is where we started it and why. When we drew up the bylaws we didn't envision the progress of all wood laminate bows. Does it matter? To some yes and I want to respect them and their beliefs. Does it matter on the range? I'm not so sure as I have seen self bows out shoot modern bows from the same stake. I have self bows and fiberglass laminate bows and have taken deer with both styles. I would much rather just camp out, cook, eat, shoot for fun or bragging rights and leave the competition to someone else. So lets just make sure in our get togethers we don't lose sight of the fun.


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## Joe "JC" Coots (Mar 20, 2009)

No offense taken Choctaw, I was just trying to explain our reasoning behind the TBG classification.

Two points: as I said above "Choctaw and Axle: so what would you suggest we call our current "primitive" class? " I'd like to hear your input. TBG officers have a duty to at least consider input from TBG members.

And you have my assurance that if you call me ahead of time of the next shoot and tell me you have 10 hard core primative competitors who will attend, we'll have a separate class all to their own...everything natural except for arrow points. Otherwise, we'll probably have to stay with our current class until that happens.

Some like to compete, some don't. Usually I do compete but I sure do laugh and cut up while I'm doing it! I think you can have fun doing both, at least in traditional archery. Heck, I'll even tell the guys to keep talking and laughing while I shoot...all that concentrated quiet they may think I need makes me nervous


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## pine nut (Mar 20, 2009)

"...all that concentrated quiet they may think I need makes me nervous"  
__________________
Not to hijack Joe, but even with this information you would be hard to beat!  thanks for the tip though!  LOL

Big "Thank You" for your constant concern about what you do and your duties towards the TBG and its members.  Just taking the time to reply to these situations takes you away from other things you might rather do.  'Preciate you Joe.  You a good man!  Bill


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## choctawlb (Mar 20, 2009)

Joe,
I appreciate the concern, but you can leave the class name as is. That line is already drawn, and I'll just leave it be.  The original debate was not with the TBG,although ya'll ended up all  in the middle of it, but another poster on this thread, who more or less stated I shot that class so I would "get a trophy", and that I would continue to whine until I got the standards down to my level". Like I said before, I let him push my buttons, and get me a little bent out of shape. I should have PM'd him with my reply, not aired it on the board.   Well I'm stepping up and raising my line just a little, by in the future shooting in the "Big Boys Class", provided that is allowable under the present guidelines. It's not a problem for me , there aren't many folks in the "Primitive "
class anyway,(But they are all fine archers) so it limits the amount of people I can meet .  I have never been a "Competitive Minded Shooter" (No offense meant to anyone that is) , so at the end of the day, I'm just glad I got to shoot and have fun. Yes I am very passionate about "Primitive Archery", and maybe I am better off expressing that  in deed, than in word in the future. 
Thanks,
Ken


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## dutchman (Mar 20, 2009)

I'll shoot primitive with you next year, Ken. So will a few others I know of...


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## choctawlb (Mar 20, 2009)

Thank you Dutch. I feel that over the next few years that the "Primitive " class will grow in numbers, as people discover the joys  and challenges of shooting self bows, and arrows produced from naturally occurring materials. It would be very rewarding, for me at least, to see that occur.  A large number of people have expressed to me their desire to harvest a deer, with equipment that they have learned to make. For me at least, that is my ultimate goal in archery. I'm not abandoning the "Primitive" class by any means, just going on a little walk-about.
Ken


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## gregg dudley (Mar 21, 2009)

y'all let me eat them taters and I'll shoot primitive too.


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## choctawlb (Mar 21, 2009)

If we offer "Suicide Taters" to all the people that shoot the " Primitive" class , is that considered baiting?
Ken


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## bam_bam (Mar 21, 2009)

If I am ever able to make a shoot I would shoot primitive with yall.


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## Nicodemus (Mar 21, 2009)

choctawlb said:


> If we offer "Suicide Taters" to all the people that shoot the " Primitive" class , is that considered baiting?
> Ken




Yep! But, from the way I look at it, that`s legal...


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## trad bow (Mar 21, 2009)

Taters? I'm in.


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## dutchman (Mar 21, 2009)

gregg dudley said:


> y'all let me eat them taters and I'll shoot primitive too.





trad bow said:


> Taters? I'm in.



I think maybe we can work something out...


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## FVR (Mar 27, 2009)

Next time ya go to an event, check out the scores of the primitive vs longbow or recurve class'.  You will be surprised as the scores are very close.

I can remember about 10 / 12 years back and there were only a hand full of us primitive shooters.  Now, it's a major class' with lots of competition.  Sometimes we just shot in the longbow or recurve class.







Here is the selfbow I'm shooting now.  Allan made it for me, first time in over 7 years that I am shooting something other than my own bow.

Feel like I'm cheating, I mean, selfbow?  It's a premium recurve.

The shame.........it shoots aluminum so well.......but I must stay with the woodies.


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