# A question



## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

So if you believe in nothing, and think its all random, no creator, no purpose, no next life after death or whatever, then why do you spend so much time debating it?


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## JustUs4All (Oct 27, 2022)

IMO, most folks are more comfortable in groups so they spend some of their time trying to convince other to share their opinions.


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## hopper (Oct 27, 2022)

Mabe cause they are looking for proof of existence and hoping someone can provide it through their debating. 
 I pulled the pin tossed in the grenade and stepping away ???


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

An atheist, a cross fitter, and a vegan walk into a bar.  How do I know?  They all told me about what they were within two minutes.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> An atheist, a cross fitter, and a vegan walk into a bar.  How do I know?  They all told me about what they were within two minutes.


Hi im an atheist, can you spare some time? Id like to tell you the good word of how i believe in nothing???


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

No takers yet? I was just curious is all. I have read and commented a couple of times in here. So far it seems more about picking apart specific bible quotes and then tryin to convince folks why they are wrong. Seriously, why do you care so much as to correct a believer?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2022)

I have always believed it is an underlying issue where they feel the need to destroy your belief system.  It is almost as though they don't want you to have something that they don't have.  Almost jealousy to a point.

Of course, if you look to the spiritual side, it is the age old battle of something exalting itself over God.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> So if you believe in nothing, and think its all random, no creator, no purpose, no next life after death or whatever, then why do you spend so much time debating it?


 A good and fair question indeed! I will address it:

1) I for one do not believe in "nothing" - I believe in many things. But I do not believe that any god - from any religion - written about (so far) in a holy book is real. The reasons are legion, for there are many. See what I did there? Most of you got that biblical reference.
2) There could be "a purpose" that humans aren't even capable of understanding. But myths, folklore, fables, embellishments, and other such fictional devices - while fascinating at times - don't bring us any closer to understanding any grand "purpose" in humanities presence on this planet. We all have our own personal subjective purpose (mine is to outlive my wife because she needs me to take care of her) and our objective purpose - which almost ALL living things share - is to consume energy before we get consumed, and to do this long enough to reproduce (replace ourselves). That's a pretty sweet deal - how/why would you want to try to improve on that? That's like paining a smile on the Mona Lisa - or these days throwing a plate of creamed corn on the Mona Lisa to protest......something, I guess.
3) Life after death? What purpose would that serve? Why treat your very limited time on this planet like a "dress rehearsal" for an even longer life? Life after death IMHO is a product of the human imagination based on the evidence presented so far.
4) Why debate all these things? Blame evolution! The human brain evolved (is evolving, the process never stops of course) to ponder/question/imagine/investigate the things we don't understand or that we cannot prove. Every society that I know of since recorded history and no doubt in prehistoric times - has had various religions so by now _the concept _of religion - whether we "believe" in it or nor - is hardwired into us. Science eventually discovers more & more things/solves more & more problems but since you cannot disprove what doesn't exist the debates about religion will never, ever end until humans are extinct because the human imagination is limitless! No more bibles are being written, but the interpretations are evolving. Debating the concept of religion and the clash of worldviews (reality versus the supernatural) in the year 2022 is a great way to stimulate & inspire everybody's highly evolved human brains!


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

Ah, yes... I, too, remember the first time I read Christopher Hitchens. 

I have since found out that man doesn't need religion to "poison everything": He will find a medium for that one way or the other. Nor does being a nonbeliever correlate with having open and informative discussions, as is clearly evident on this particular forum.

Good people are good people regardless of what they attribute their ethics to; bad folks are bad folks in the same way. Ain't no reason we can't just listen to eachother and treat eachother right.


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## Hillbilly stalker (Oct 27, 2022)

Well, I don’t believe in Bigfoot…..but I don’t waste my time and effort trying to get other people NOT to believe in him either. Just saying …….


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 27, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have always believed it is an underlying issue where they feel the need to destroy your belief system.  It is almost as though they don't want you to have something that they don't have.  Almost jealousy to a point.
> 
> Of course, if you look to the spiritual side, it is the age old battle of something exalting itself over God.


Interesting take on it, but allow me to flip the script and present my viewpoint:
I don't want to destroy anyone's belief system. And I'm certainly not jealous, because I have a belief system of my own. Perhaps believers could be jealous of me! Accepting reality to be the facts as they have been revealed to me so far and having the freedom to reject what has been proven false. Appreciating that all living things die but life goes on, so try to help people and appreciate this opportunity to help people because we are all riding this rock around the sun together. And I certainly don't try to exalt myself over god. If there is a god obviously it would be greater than myself. I'm nothing special compared to any other living thing on this planet. But I am special to my family and that's enough for me.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have always believed it is an underlying issue where they feel the need to destroy your belief system.  It is almost as though they don't want you to have something that they don't have.  Almost jealousy to a point.
> 
> Of course, if you look to the spiritual side, it is the age old battle of something exalting itself over God.


Does that also apply to Christians who deny other gods/religions and vice versa?
Let me guess - no thats completely different.


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## brutally honest (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Seriously, why do you care so much as to correct a believer?



In the AA defense, it takes two to tango.  Remember, the third “A” is apologetics.  Believers drop in to debate these issues, too.  The AA guys are often just returning fire.


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## Big7 (Oct 27, 2022)

There are a few members that only post in that forum, never posting in any of the "Outdoor News" forums.

Gets on my nerves..
But just about everything gets on my nerves.
It's a mental disorder.
?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> Ah, yes... I, too, remember the first time I read Christopher Hitchens.
> 
> I have since found out that man doesn't need religion to "poison everything": He will find a medium for that one way or the other. Nor does being a nonbeliever correlate with having open and informative discussions, as is clearly evident on this particular forum.
> 
> Good people are good people regardless of what they attribute their ethics to; bad folks are bad folks in the same way. Ain't no reason we can't just listen to eachother and treat eachother right.





> remember the first time I read Christopher Hitchens.


He's just a dude with an opinion. No more valid than anybody else's opinion.


> Nor does being a nonbeliever correlate with having open and informative discussions, as is clearly evident on this particular forum.


The same applies to every subject under the sun. People are people. For example, spend some time in the other Spiritual forums.


> Good people are good people regardless of what they attribute their ethics to; bad folks are bad folks in the same way. Ain't no reason we can't just listen to eachother and treat eachother right.


Yep.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

JustUs4All said:


> IMO, most folks are more comfortable in groups so they spend some of their time trying to convince other to share their opinions.


I honestly dont believe the goal here is to convince others not to believe in their god.
A/As dont believe in gods just because others say they exist. Why would we expect you to believe there isnt just because we say theres not?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> So if you believe in nothing, and think its all random, no creator, no purpose, no next life after death or whatever, then why do you spend so much time debating it?


Because its probably one of the most important subjects in the history of mankind? Think of the effect religion/belief has had on humanity, both positive and negative. 
Whats had more effect? Ford vs. Chevy?


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 27, 2022)

Big7 said:


> There are a few members that only post in that forum, never posting in any of the "Outdoor News" forums.
> 
> Gets on my nerves..
> But just about everything gets on my nerves.
> ...


Yeah, I think I got that mental disorder too. The older I get, the more I spend time with people that don't get on my nerves. So, when folks say "Where's Rooster? I ain't seen him in awhile", you know that means they got on my nerves.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 27, 2022)

Big7 said:


> There are a few members that only post in that forum, never posting in any of the "Outdoor News" forums.
> 
> Gets on my nerves..
> But just about everything gets on my nerves.
> ...


The older I get the more things - okay, and people - get on my nerves.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Because its probably one of the most important subjects in the history of mankind? Think of the effect religion/belief has had on humanity, both positive and negative.
> Whats had more effect? Ford vs. Chevy?



Or fishing with your spinning reel upside down. It makes you ask yourself: what makes that guy tick? What is going on inside his head? Does he know something the rest of us don't know? Have I ever devoted serious study to fishing like that?


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> He's just a dude with an opinion. No more valid than anybody else's opinion.
> 
> The same applies to every subject under the sun. People are people. For example, spend some time in the other Spiritual forums.
> 
> Yep.


My point is that from this forum most of all, I expected better than I have seen. Seems like every question is loaded; even honest attempts to understand nonbelievers are met with hostility, and questions posed towards believers are both loaded with presuppositions about the way believers think and not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe. 

I'm not pointing any fingers at you; maybe you're part of the solution; I just think that this forum is stuck on day 1 of atheism. Maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> My point is that from this forum most of all, I expected better than I have seen. Seems like every question is loaded; even honest attempts to understand nonbelievers are met with hostility, and questions posed towards believers are both loaded with presuppositions about the way believers think and not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe.
> 
> I'm not pointing any fingers at you; maybe you're part of the solution; I just think that this forum is stuck on day 1 of atheism. Maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in.


We could probably discuss your post ^ for days. While your post seems pretty simple/direct, answering it could get pretty complicated.


> Seems like every question is loaded; even honest attempts to understand nonbelievers are met with hostility, and questions posed towards believers are both loaded with presuppositions about the way believers think and not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe.


Both sides are guilty of that ^ at times.


> not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe.


I disagree. We just debate your reasoning for believing just as you debate our reasoning for not believing. But the reasons for believing or not believing comes first. Then thats what is debated.


> I just think that this forum is stuck on day 1 of atheism.


Atheism is a pretty simple subject. Dont believe gods have been proven to exist. Not sure how far you can go from there. 


> I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in.


I can tell you what every Atheist or Agnostic that participates in this forum believes from participating here. It ranges from "I dont know" to "there is some sort of a higher power" to "we crawled out of the ocean" to.....

This a subject with no KNOWN/PROVEN right or wrong opinions/answers. Because of that its inevitable that its going to go round and round in circles.
Personally, Ive learned alot about various believers beliefs in here. And I used to be one.


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## hopper (Oct 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> A good and fair question indeed! I will address it:
> 
> 1) I for one do not believe in "nothing" - I believe in many things. But I do not believe that any god - from any religion - written about (so far) in a holy book is real. The reasons are legion, for there are many. See what I did there? Most of you got that biblical reference.
> 2) There could be "a purpose" that humans aren't even capable of understanding. But myths, folklore, fables, embellishments, and other such fictional devices - while fascinating at times - don't bring us any closer to understanding any grand "purpose" in humanities presence on this planet. We all have our own personal subjective purpose (mine is to outlive my wife because she needs me to take care of her) and our objective purpose - which almost ALL living things share - is to consume energy before we get consumed, and to do this long enough to reproduce (replace ourselves). That's a pretty sweet deal - how/why would you want to try to improve on that? That's like paining a smile on the Mona Lisa - or these days throwing a plate of creamed corn on the Mona Lisa to protest......something, I guess.
> ...


I always thought the Mona Lisa could use a smile and a face lift


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

This forum is hilarious.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Both sides are guilty of that ^ at times.


Certainly, and I am implying no comparisons to the "other side" or any side, but as I said, I expected better from this forum of all places, and so far that type of thinking has unfortunately been the majority here. Again, maybe I was too optimistic going on.


WaltL1 said:


> I disagree. We just debate your reasoning for believing just as you debate our reasoning for not believing. But the reasons for believing or not believing comes first. Then thats what is debated.


If by debating, you mean telling other folks why what they believe is wrong or stupid, then yes, I see plenty of that here. As for learning why others believe what they do and understanding the differences and similarities between faiths, I have seen this forum fail _miserably_ at that.


WaltL1 said:


> Atheism is a pretty simple subject. Dont believe gods have been proven to exist. Not sure how far you can go from there.


But I do not think it is such a simple subject... Indeed, it is simple in origin, but like many simple principles, it leads to many new problems/questions. The challenge of finding my own answers to those many questions has defined and enriched my experience as an atheist--heck, I have found a lot of them while I was in the outdoors--so that is what I have missed in this forum.


WaltL1 said:


> I can tell you what every Atheist or Agnostic that participates in this forum believes from participating here. It ranges from "I dont know" to "there is some sort of a higher power" to "we crawled out of the ocean" to.....
> 
> This a subject with no KNOWN/PROVEN right or wrong opinions/answers. Because of that its inevitable that its going to go round and round in circles.
> Personally, Ive learned alot about various believers beliefs in here. And I used to be one.


But surely that is not the extent of their beliefs, and if it is, this place really is as uninteresting as I thought. Surely the complexity and depth of a nonbeliever's beliefs is no less than that of a believer's beliefs. Yet, some believers seem to be able to talk endlessly about what forms their beliefs, while a group of us who have supposedly put a lot of thought into our beliefs haven't gotten past that initial rejection of a belief in God/gods.

In a nutshell, as a former devout Christian turned nonbeliever/atheist, I have found this forum to be as disappointing as--and analogous to--a football forum that only talks about how stupid baseball is.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> This forum is hilarious.


My friend that I used to live with went through a stage where he was the kind of atheist you see on this forum... I was already a non-believer by that time, but I thought his attitude was silly... So what I'd do every Sunday was to turn on the TV preachers and just sit there laughing at him getting worked up to the point where he'd start yelling at the TV screen. That's exactly what this forum feels like.


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> No takers yet? I was just curious is all. I have read and commented a couple of times in here. So far it seems more about picking apart specific bible quotes and then tryin to convince folks why they are wrong. Seriously, why do you care so much as to correct a believer?


I’ll take a swipe at this.  So many atheists seem to have daddy issues.  It’s similar to left wing liberals that hate the values of their parents and can’t seem to mature beyond being a rebellious teenager.  Atheists seem stuck on some experience from their youth that centers around “Tha Christians is hypocrites!”  That statement is true of course.  But it’s true of EVERYBODY.  We are all sinners so at some point we are all hypocrites because we can’t hit the mark.  Not with any degree of consistency.    Most people are able to accept that and move on but these atheists are like grownups who are mad at their parents because Santa turned out to not be real so Christmas is awful and so is anybody who celebrates it.

If a person is an atheist it doesn’t make me dislike them.  It makes me worry about them but not dislike them or make me mad at them.  There are some atheists on this board who are fine folks.  Those atheists rarely if ever post in this forum and they think this forum is ridiculous.  I’m talking about a very specific type of person.


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> Certainly, and I am implying no comparisons to the "other side" or any side, but as I said, I expected better from this forum of all places, and so far that type of thinking has unfortunately been the majority here. Again, maybe I was too optimistic going on.
> 
> If by debating, you mean telling other folks why what they believe is wrong or stupid, then yes, I see plenty of that here. As for learning why others believe what they do and understanding the differences and similarities between faiths, I have seen this forum fail _miserably_ at that.
> 
> ...


Good Lord I love this post.  That is a an unbelievable job of describing this forum and what is so ridiculous about it.  You already were but you’re welcome at my campfire any time.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Good Lord I love this post.  That is a an unbelievable job of describing this forum and what is so ridiculous about it.  You already were but you’re welcome at my campfire any time.


I appreciate that, sir, and I assure you it's mutual.


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## JB0704 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> But surely that is not the extent of their beliefs, and if it is, this place really is as uninteresting as I thought. Surely the complexity and depth of a nonbeliever's beliefs is no less than that of a believer's beliefs. Yet, some believers seem to be able to talk endlessly about what forms their beliefs, while a group of us who have supposedly put a lot of thought into our beliefs haven't gotten past that initial rejection of a belief in God/gods.
> 
> In a nutshell, as a former devout Christian turned nonbeliever/atheist, I have found this forum to be as disappointing as--and analogous to--a football forum that only talks about how stupid baseball is.



Ive discussed every aspect of faith / non faith with these folks from every angle imaginable years ago.  As a believer, I found it all very interesting and enjoyed those discussions.  I've met a few of the AA's, Walt is one of em.  Good folks.  They just don't see the universe the same way I do.  I still have enjoyed the conversations we have had online and in person. 

I am a believer.  And, because you are a former believer, I am guessing you and I could have some of the same discussions I had with them, and would likely end the same way, with mutual respect and neither of us budging.  Iron sharpens iron man.  Sometimes it's good to kick the ball back n forth just for fun.


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## JB0704 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> Maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in.



What is day two of atheism?  

Ask them what they do believe in.  They will tell you.  They just spend 99% of the time defending their position against believers which is why you think they only talk about what they don't believe in.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

JB0704 said:


> Ive discussed every aspect of faith / non faith with these folks from every angle imaginable years ago.  As a believer, I found it all very interesting and enjoyed those discussions.  I've met a few of the AA's, Walt is one of em.  Good folks.  They just don't see the universe the same way I do.  I still have enjoyed the conversations we have had online and in person.
> 
> I am a believer.  And, because you are a former believer, I am guessing you and I could have some of the same discussions I had with them, and would likely end the same way, with mutual respect and neither of us budging.  Iron sharpens iron man.  Sometimes it's good to kick the ball back n forth just for fun.


I have no reason to doubt the integrity of folks in here, or even their ability to have a friendly conversation outside of these forums--the internet is certainly an awful medium for that type of thing. I will also trust that, given the right circumunstances, I could even have some great conversations on here. Heck, maybe I'll even start a thread next time I have a good topic on my mind... I've just tried to convey the reasons I've been disappointed here, with an allowance that my perception of it all may be somehow skewed.


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## JB0704 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> I have no reason to doubt the integrity of folks in here, or even their ability to have a friendly conversation outside of these forums--the internet is certainly an awful medium for that type of thing. I will also trust that, given the right circumunstances, I could even have some great conversations on here. Heck, maybe I'll even start a thread next time I have a good topic on my mind... I've just tried to convey the reasons I've been disappointed here, with an allowance that my perception of it all may be somehow skewed.



Start something up.  Since you and I never went at it over faith, I will participate.  I don't jump in here much anymore but would enjoy a decent debate.  Billy the heathern v billy the believer.  It'll be fun.


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## bullethead (Oct 27, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I have always believed it is an underlying issue where they feel the need to destroy your belief system.  It is almost as though they don't want you to have something that they don't have.  Almost jealousy to a point.
> 
> Of course, if you look to the spiritual side, it is the age old battle of something exalting itself over God.


By that measure most of you secretly want to be Democrats judging by the frequency and posts in the Political Forum.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

JB0704 said:


> What is day two of atheism?
> 
> Ask them what they do believe in.  They will tell you.  They just spend 99% of the time defending their position against believers which is why you think they only talk about what they don't believe in.


Day two, three, and so forth for me was figuring out what I _do_ believe in... Going back to the football forum analogy, if we all agree baseball is dumb on day one, on day two we'd start talking about football teams and different offensive/defensive strategies.

I think it is a fair point to note that kind of "knee-jerk," if you will, reaction. I will also, however, note that even threads on here that start off under the pretense of asking why some folks believe what they do are often phrased in an insulting manner that does not demonstrate a very deep thought on the subject. So while I think it's fair to note the human factors that influence that, I also think it should be called out.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Good Lord I love this post.  That is a an unbelievable job of describing this forum and what is so ridiculous about it.  You already were but you’re welcome at my campfire any time.


And yet you are here.
And drop in fairly frequently to say how ridiculous it is.
Thats kinda ridiculous too aint it?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 27, 2022)

I am not an atheist, but I don't follow or particularly believe any formal, organized religion any more.  I would say I have been much disillusioned with the whole thing, but I still strongly respect other people's religious views, as long as they don't try to cram them down my throat. I will note that hostility goes both ways. I was raised in a devout Baptist family, and still live in a mostly such community, and seems like when I quit going to church I was just quietly shunned by many family members and former friends. I was now "they" instead of "us," and many of them simply didn't want to associate with me any more when I stepped outside their structured belief system and religious community. It's an odd thing how strongly many folks on both sides feel about the whole deal.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

JB0704 said:


> Start something up.  Since you and I never went at it over faith, I will participate.  I don't jump in here much anymore but would enjoy a decent debate.  Billy the heathern v billy the believer.  It'll be fun.


Ain't really no "Vs." element to it, though; I have no interest in approaching anyone's belief with the intent to disprove it or poke holes in it. I'd be more interested in discussing, for example, why you might disagree with some more fundamentalist religious elements, or how you balance your belief in a creator with some scientific discoveries.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

Day two, three, and so forth for me was figuring out what I _do_ believe in... Going back to the football forum analogy, if we all agree baseball is dumb on day one, on day two we'd start talking about football teams and different offensive/defensive strategies.

I think it is a fair point to note that kind of "knee-jerk," if you will, reaction. I will also, however, note that even threads on here that start off under the pretense of asking why some folks believe what they do are often phrased in an insulting manner that does not demonstrate a very deep thought on the subject. So while I think it's fair to note the human factors that influence that, I also think it should be called out.


> if we all agree baseball is dumb on day one


Those 10 words alone suggest to me your scope may be a bit off.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Those 10 words alone suggest to me your scope may be a bit off.


I'm using a little hyperbole there for the sake of the analogy, which I think holds whether we say "dumb,""boring,""not for me," etc; I had no intent to imply that a precondition of this forum is thinking that religion or a belief in God/gods is dumb.


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## Railroader (Oct 27, 2022)

Good Lord...

My little Tacoma with 33" Swampers, Xrtra Low Range and a locker in both ends won't even crawl thru this thread...

I BELIEVE I'll ease on to The Woods.  That's where I find most of my answers....

Y'all carry on!


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> Ain't really no "Vs." element to it, though; I have no interest in approaching anyone's belief with the intent to disprove it or poke holes in it. I'd be more interested in discussing, for example, why you might disagree with some more fundamentalist religious elements, or how you balance your belief in a creator with some scientific discoveries.





> I have no interest in approaching anyone's belief with the intent to disprove it or poke holes in it.


Please note the believers came here to a forum where debate is knowingly what happens.
Thats kinda the opposite of us "approaching".


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Please note the believers came here to a forum where debate is knowingly what happens.
> Thats kinda the opposite of us "approaching".


I'm referring to my hypothetical future discussions with Mr. JB; that was not a comment on the state of this forum. 

But yes, I trust that some believers do come here to start a debate.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> I'm using a little hyperbole there for the sake of the analogy, which I think holds whether we say "dumb,""boring,""not for me," etc; I had no intent to imply that a precondition of this forum is thinking that religion or a belief in God/gods is dumb.


Thanks for expounding. I did get that impression. My bad.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> I'm referring to my hypothetical future discussions with Mr. JB; that was not a comment on the state of this forum.
> 
> But yes, I trust that some believers do come here to start a debate.


JB is a great person to discuss and/or debate this subject with.
I think its safe to say that he and his opinions/thoughts are highly respected by all of us AAs here.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Thanks for expounding. I did get that impression. My bad.


All good; my communication ain't perfect.


WaltL1 said:


> JB is a great person to discuss and/or debate this subject with.
> I think its safe to say that he and his opinions/thoughts are highly respected by all of us AAs here.


All in all, I've just tried to note the things I haven't liked about this forum, but based on what JB has said, I am also optimistic that there is some good conversation to be had here. I'll keep y'all in mind the next time I have a good topic come to mind.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Good Lord...
> 
> My little Tacoma with 33" Swampers, Xrtra Low Range and a locker in both ends won't even crawl thru this thread...
> 
> ...


Off topic but....
Wanted to Thank You for your restaraunt recommendations on St. Simons.
Tried a couple of them and all were really good. The Red Barn even got a party of 40 of us hungry fisherman in on a busy Saturday night.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Oct 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> By that measure most of you secretly want to be Democrats judging by the frequency and posts in the Political Forum.


meybe I does and meybe I doesn'ts


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> My point is that from this forum most of all, I expected better than I have seen. Seems like every question is loaded; even honest attempts to understand nonbelievers are met with hostility, and questions posed towards believers are both loaded with presuppositions about the way believers think and not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe.
> 
> I'm not pointing any fingers at you; maybe you're part of the solution; I just think that this forum is stuck on day 1 of atheism. Maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in.



I think that most non-believers have discussed (or expressed) their philosophies and beliefs many times. For the most part these beliefs of atheists/agnostics line up with the beliefs of believers: honesty, hard work, love of family, morals/decency, love of country, etc. etc. I think the source & inspiration of these beliefs is the main difference in our basic worldviews.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> In the AA defense, it takes two to tango.  Remember, the third “A” is apologetics.  Believers drop in to debate these issues, too.  The AA guys are often just returning fire.


But this whole forum is for folks to debate why they dont believe.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Because its probably one of the most important subjects in the history of mankind? Think of the effect religion/belief has had on humanity, both positive and negative.
> Whats had more effect? Ford vs. Chevy?


I can agree with this answer. Even if you dont believe i can see from this angle why you feel the topic worth your time


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## bullethead (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> But this whole forum is for folks to debate why they dont believe.


That isn't what it says under the Title of the Forum.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> All good; my communication ain't perfect.
> 
> All in all, I've just tried to note the things I haven't liked about this forum, but based on what JB has said, I am also optimistic that there is some good conversation to be had here. I'll keep y'all in mind the next time I have a good topic come to mind.


Its a tough subject to discuss/debate and admittedly things can get a bit hot at times. Folks have strong feelings about in both directions.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> That isn't what it says under the Title of the Forum.


Come now. You know what i mean. I started this thread to find some answers to yalls outlook.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I can agree with this answer. Even if you dont believe i can see from this angle why you feel the topic worth your time


Then add in most of the nonbelievers here were once believers. That adds a whole other angle to it.


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## bullethead (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Come now. You know what i mean. I started this thread to find some answers to yalls outlook.


Here is the main reason I am not getting into an in depth answer on it regarding me personally. Over the years there has been a pretty consistent participation by a handful of members which all fit under one of the three A's. We have had the conversation to the question you posed. More times than once in fact.
The guys that regularly participate each have baseline on each other.  We know where we all stand, what we've already discussed and more often than not we just cut right to the chase and avoid the "Hi, I am so and so, and I am a believer/non beleiver because..." type meetings intros. There is no sense doing it because mostly because nobody new sticks around to discuss anything and just pop in to tell us why popping is dumb.
Of course everyone is welcome and those that stick around to actually chat soon find out why everyone else is here.
Except for a difference in other worldly beliefs most of us share the same interests in other areas and wouldn't know what any of us believe in or not if it wasn't discussed in here. This is the place for it. Despite unfounded claims made earlier there are people that gather here to do it, so why bring it up in the river or while deer hunting or in a bar?


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## brutally honest (Oct 27, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> But this whole forum is for folks to debate why they dont believe.



… or for believers to debate why they do believe.


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Please note the believers came here to a forum where debate is knowingly what happens.
> Thats kinda the opposite of us "approaching".





WaltL1 said:


> And yet you are here.
> And drop in fairly frequently to say how ridiculous it is.
> Thats kinda ridiculous too aint it?


I like making the dogs bark sometimes.


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## JB0704 (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> ……. for example, why you might disagree with some more fundamentalist religious elements, or how you balance your belief in a creator with some scientific discoveries.




Start it up man.  Glad to participate.  I can defend my faith and don’t feel challenged when asked to do so.

Chances are I will make most like minded believers hate me, and u will remain unconvinced.  I’ve had this discussion with Bullet, Walt, Ambush, BRW, etc.  I’m happy to have it with you.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 27, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> My point is that from this forum most of all, I expected better than I have seen. Seems like every question is loaded; even honest attempts to understand nonbelievers are met with hostility, and questions posed towards believers are both loaded with presuppositions about the way believers think and not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe.
> 
> I'm not pointing any fingers at you; maybe you're part of the solution; I just think that this forum is stuck on day 1 of atheism. Maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in.


There are at least a few who have posted on this thread who remember why there is an AAA forum.  It was created because of the contention that it was not possible for the believers to discuss their shared belief (yes, that included, and was perhaps dominated by their disagreements); and that each time they (those who believe) attempted to understand the position of those with whom they disagreed, they were reminded that the AA's position was that the believers were all (I recall being very careful,at the time, to use only terms that had been used recently) intellectually defficient, delusional, parroting what they had been taught, uninquisitive, etc.

Not too long (a few months, as I recall) after the creation of the four subforums I participated in the AAA (in accordance with the last A), with the openly declared purpose, of attempting to show, in opposition to the often stated accusations,  that believers were not necessarily intellectually deficient, delusional, parroting what they had been taught, uninquisitive, etc .

After a few years, I gave up.  IOW, I am in substantial, although not complete, agreement with you.  Please note that I have not excluded the other subforums from similar characterizations.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I like making the dogs bark sometimes.


A psychologist will tell you thats one of the first signs of a twisted mind


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> A psychologist will tell you thats one of the first signs of a twisted mind


I’ve got a lice of paper that says I’m not crazy.  You?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I’ve got a lice of paper that says I’m not crazy.  You?


Nope. Admittedly I dont have a lice of paper. At least not that Im aware of.


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## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Nope. Admittedly I dont have a lice of paper. At least not that Im aware of.


Oh we’re pedantic as well.  It’s like a buffet.


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## atlashunter (Oct 27, 2022)

Not the first time this question has been asked and it seems to me those asking it have the cart before the horse when they suggest we are looking for something we refuse to find. We aren’t trying to find our way to where the believer is. That’s where most of us started out. It was through the willingness to honestly question and challenge the claims of theism, beliefs which we held, that led us to change our views. Even after abandoning theism it’s still for many an interesting topic and it’s good to have the discussions for the fence sitters who are still trying to sort out on which side they belong.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh we’re pedantic as well.  It’s like a buffet.


Did someone say buffet? I'll have an extra piece of fried chicken please with some mashed potato salvation on the side...


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 27, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Not the first time this question has been asked and it seems to me those asking it have the cart before the horse when they suggest we are looking for something we refuse to find. We aren’t trying to find our way to where the believer is. That’s where most of us started out. It was through the willingness to honestly question and challenge the claims of theism, beliefs which we held, that led us to change our views. Even after abandoning theism it’s still for many an interesting topic and it’s good to have the discussions for the fence sitters who are still trying to sort out on which side they belong.


Im not tryin to lead anybody to religion, was just curious why the topic was so important to those that dont believe.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 27, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Oh we’re pedantic as well.  It’s like a buffet.


----------



## Danuwoa (Oct 27, 2022)

You’re selling yourself short.


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## JB0704 (Oct 27, 2022)

I’m not ashamed to admit I just googled “pedantic definition.”


----------



## hummerpoo (Oct 27, 2022)

JB0704 said:


> Start it up man.  Glad to participate.  I can defend my faith and don’t feel challenged when asked to do so.
> 
> Chances are I will make most like minded believers hate me, and u will remain unconvinced.  I’ve had this discussion with Bullet, Walt, Ambush, BRW, etc.  I’m happy to have it with you.


hey JB, is that you,?  Musician, two cool kids?   If I've got the right guy, I'll bet that, with God's guidance,  that beautiful little girl is becoming a wonderful young woman, and that attentive boy is to be admired by those who are attentive.

I have no desire to engage in a conversation; jest wanted to say, "Good to see ya'.

BTW. With the  glasses, hat, and beard, it's hard to tell, but you appear to have aged a little.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 28, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> hey JB, is that you,?  Musician, two cool kids?   If I've got the right guy, I'll bet that, with God's guidance,  that beautiful little girl is becoming a wonderful young woman, and that attentive boy is to be admired by those who are attentive.
> 
> I have no desire to engage in a conversation; jest wanted to say, "Good to see ya'.
> 
> BTW. With the  glasses, hat, and beard, it's hard to tell, but you appear to have aged a little.




Hey HP!  Yep, it’s me.  Not much for music anymore, no time these days.  Wife n I bought a little farm out in the country n it takes up all my spare time. And I’m def old(er) n fat now.  Adopted two more little girls since last we spoke, they are 8 and 7 (2 n 3 when we got them) and an absolute joy in our lives.  As for the two kids u reference, My son is now in law school at UGA and the musician of the family as he plays in a church band and is better than I ever was, and my daughter is in 8th grade playing 3 sports and leaning to ride horses and play piano. 

Thanks for asking and “good to see ya” too.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 28, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> But this whole forum is for folks to debate why they dont believe.


Negative - it's also for apologetic believers. Apologetics are believers who try to show how biblical claims can be explained to mesh with reality.
Apologetics defend Christianity. 

Here is the actual in-depth definition:








						Christian apologetics - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## livinoutdoors (Oct 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Negative - it's also for apologetic believers. Apologetics are believers who try to show how biblical claims can be explained to mesh with reality.
> Apologetics defend Christianity.
> 
> Here is the actual in-depth definition:
> ...


Yes that would be the other side of the debate now donchaknow.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 28, 2022)

@WaltL1 gave a good response to the original question. The rest were a mixed bag with some sayin they dont answer to new folks or we been there already or what have you. Well its yalls forum so do whatever, but to me it seems the debate is not so much a debate in here, but more of a get a believer to name a specific thing from the bible so we can tell them how its wrong.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 28, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> @WaltL1 gave a good response to the original question. The rest were a mixed bag with some sayin they dont answer to new folks or we been there already or what have you. Well its yalls forum so do whatever, but to me it seems the debate is not so much a debate in here, but more of a get a believer to name a specific thing from the bible so we can tell them how its wrong.


If something is true it is easy to back up with facts. What is wrong with asking a person to do that no matter what the subject is?
Do you ask proof from BRW or the Dems in the PF?
If someone posts that they shot a buck with 200" of antler but cannot post a pic of it or give you a link to it but instead tells you to read their initial post because that is the source and thier proof, do you take their word for it?
Is it unreasonable to ask someone to be able to provide a reasonable answer to their claims?

As for "don't want to answer to new folks" , anyone can use the search feature and take the time to go back through the threads to get my reasons for being here, read my past religious affiliation, and by doing that will get more in depth answers than I can give here as they previous ones will be more detailed.
Your curiosity in wanting to hear about what makes us tick as non believers is the exact same reasons we converse with believers. We are interested in what has them hooked as believers and naturally conversations will arise from there.

I am in Pennsylvania. Over the years I have been fortunate enough to obtain the cell phone numbers from three guys that are or were regulars in the AAA forum. All three are loyal believers in God and all three vary from one another in their beliefs. I respect all three and consider them to be fine human beings who are going through life just like everyone else. Never, not once, have I used the phone to chat with them about religion. We do that here. My point is that outside of this forum we are all extremely similar and this is a place to talk about one particular subject with like minded people and people with opposite views. I have learned a lot from the conversations in here.
The people who pop in and add absolutely nothing to a conversation (not pointing to you as you are at least involved in actual conversation) and just do it to make hit and run assertions just aren't worth ruining an ongoing conversation with. They have nothing to add but to derail.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If something is true it is easy to back up with facts. What is wrong with asking a person to do that no matter what the subject is?
> Do you ask proof from BRW or the Dems in the PF?
> If someone posts that they shot a buck with 200" of antler but cannot post a pic of it or give you a link to it but instead tells you to read their initial post because that is the source and thier proof, do you take their word for it?
> Is it unreasonable to ask someone to be able to provide a reasonable answer to their claims?
> ...


Fair enough.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 28, 2022)

JB0704 said:


> Hey HP!  Yep, it’s me.  Not much for music anymore, no time these days.  Wife n I bought a little farm out in the country n it takes up all my spare time. And I’m def old(er) n fat now.  Adopted two more little girls since last we spoke, they are 8 and 7 (2 n 3 when we got them) and an absolute joy in our lives.  As for the two kids u reference, My son is now in law school at UGA and the musician of the family as he plays in a church band and is better than I ever was, and my daughter is in 8th grade playing 3 sports and leaning to ride horses and play piano.
> 
> Thanks for asking and “good to see ya” too.


Thanks for the update.  Luvya Brother.


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## atlashunter (Oct 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> If something is true it is easy to back up with facts. What is wrong with asking a person to do that no matter what the subject is?
> Do you ask proof from BRW or the Dems in the PF?
> If someone posts that they shot a buck with 200" of antler but cannot post a pic of it or give you a link to it but instead tells you to read their initial post because that is the source and thier proof, do you take their word for it?
> Is it unreasonable to ask someone to be able to provide a reasonable answer to their claims?
> ...


What's funny is this forum is already separated out of the other religious forums so that believers can have their echo chambers but that's not enough for some. They have to come in here and act like there's no point in having these conversations here either. Of course they will insist they don't care and aren't bothered by it, yet here they are posting about it.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> So if you believe in nothing, and think its all random, no creator, no purpose, no next life after death or whatever, then why do you spend so much time debating it?



It's fun and interesting.

I used to spend more time in here when I first joined in 2008.  I recently returned after having read _A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century: Evolution and the Challenges of Modern Life,_ which was written by two evolutionary biologists.  In it they make the claim that any cultural behaviors which persist at some cost are probably evolutionarily advantageous.  The belief in deities is one.  I returned here, to a place where I've had good discussions on the subject with people whom I consider "internet friends", to interrogate this idea some more.


----------



## livinoutdoors (Oct 28, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> What's funny is this forum is already separated out of the other religious forums so that believers can have their echo chambers but that's not enough for some. They have to come in here and act like there's no point in having these conversations here either. Of course they will insist they don't care and aren't bothered by it, yet here they are posting about it.


See whats funny is i started this thread to gain some direct insight as to why yall find this topic so important. I started a seperate thread so as not to distract from the eternal life thread. You know, the one where you are goin round and round with folks because they dont see things the way you do. I never said there was no point to these conversations. In fact, i was inquiring to the very reasons you are so interested in them. I didnt come in here preaching. I said hey! Tell me about yall.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> It's fun and interesting.
> 
> I used to spend more time in here when I first joined in 2008.  I recently returned after having read _A Hunter-Gatherer's Guide to the 21st Century: Evolution and the Challenges of Modern Life,_ which was written by two evolutionary biologists.  In it they make the claim that any cultural behaviors which persist at some cost are probably evolutionarily advantageous.  The belief in deities is one.  I returned here, to a place where I've had good discussions on the subject with people whom I consider "internet friends", to interrogate this idea some more.


That is a very thoughtful answer. I agree this topic can be a very interesting one depending on who is involve.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> My point is that from this forum most of all, I expected better than I have seen. Seems like every question is loaded; even honest attempts to understand nonbelievers are met with hostility, and questions posed towards believers are both loaded with presuppositions about the way believers think and not really seeking to learn anything about how/why folks believe.
> 
> I'm not pointing any fingers at you; maybe you're part of the solution; I just think that this forum is stuck on day 1 of atheism. Maybe my perception is skewed, or maybe I was too optimistic in hoping that a bunch of folks who don't believe in any gods would talk more about what they _do_ believe in, rather than what they _don't_ believe in





Danuwoa said:


> I’ll take a swipe at this.  So many atheists seem to have daddy issues.  It’s similar to left wing liberals that hate the values of their parents and can’t seem to mature beyond being a rebellious teenager.  Atheists seem stuck on some experience from their youth that centers around “The Christians is hypocrites!”  That statement is true of course.  But it’s true of EVERYBODY.  We are all sinners so at some point we are all hypocrites because we can’t hit the mark.  Not with any degree of consistency.    Most people are able to accept that and move on but these atheists are like grownups who are mad at their parents because Santa turned out to not be real so Christmas is awful and so is anybody who celebrates it.
> 
> If a person is an atheist it doesn’t make me dislike them.  It makes me worry about them but not dislike them or make me mad at them.  There are some atheists on this board who are fine folks.  Those atheists rarely if ever post in this forum and they think this forum is ridiculous.  I’m talking about a very specific type of person.


Someone more thinned skinned might take Danuwoa's statement as hostile and belittling.  It's subjective.  Let's all post pictures of our wives, girlfriends, mothers or daughters and go around critiquing their looks.  I could do it and take no offence at any remarks.  I know, because I've tried this exercise already.  Not everybody can.  Talking about people's deeply held religious beliefs is a similar endeavor.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> That is a very thoughtful answer. I agree this topic can be a very interesting one depending on who is involve.



Back in the day, when the forum got sub-forumed, there would be some freshly minted Christians who would come in here and "Fire and Brimstone" in all caps.  It was interesting to see the manifestation of their beliefs juxtaposed by what seemed to be those who are more "mature" in their faith. It was _kind_ of interesting.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> Ain't really no "Vs." element to it, though; I have no interest in approaching anyone's belief with the intent to disprove it or poke holes in it. I'd be more interested in discussing, for example, why you might disagree with some more fundamentalist religious elements, or how you balance your belief in a creator with some scientific discoveries.



My last remaining strong criticism of religion is the notion of Divine Revelation.  Do you think you could "steelman" a defence of its utility?


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Back in the day, when the forum got sub-forumed, there would be some freshly minted Christians who would come in here and "Fire and Brimstone" in all caps.  It was interesting to see the manifestation of their beliefs juxtaposed by what seemed to be those who are more "mature" in their faith. It was kind of interesting.


Fire and brimstone Christians are disappointingly a part of Christianity but it seems they're fewer than they were when I was younger. Any idiot will choose a pat on the back to being hit with a stick so that's no reason to become a Christian. I prefer the focus to be more on the peace the life gives and less focus on prosperity or dangnation (my new made up word).


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Fire and brimstone Christians are disappointingly a part of Christianity but it seems they're fewer than they were when I was younger. Any idiot will choose a pat on the back to being hit with a stick so that's no reason to become a Christian. I prefer the focus to be more on the peace the life gives and less focus on prosperity or dangnation (my new made up word).



There are Atheist versions of the same.  Haven't seen one of those in a while either. Why do you reckon that is?


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 28, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> See whats funny is i started this thread to gain some direct insight as to why yall find this topic so important. I started a seperate thread so as not to distract from the eternal life thread. You know, the one where you are goin round and round with folks because they dont see things the way you do. I never said there was no point to these conversations. In fact, i was inquiring to the very reasons you are so interested in them. I didnt come in here preaching. I said hey! Tell me about yall.


You're not the only one that's asked this. Even outside this forum it's not that uncommon to hear from believers and it usually comes from those who really don't care to engage in apologetics. Which nobody is forcing them to do yet they will still show up just long enough to ask why anyone cares to have these discussions.

Years ago Hitchens was asked the same question. His answer is on youtube "Hitchens On Not Staying Home" for anyone interested.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Fire and brimstone Christians are disappointingly a part of Christianity but it seems they're fewer than they were when I was younger. Any idiot will choose a pat on the back to being hit with a stick so that's no reason to become a Christian. I prefer the focus to be more on the peace the life gives and less focus on prosperity or dangnation (my new made up word).



Sometimes I see this as a "Blue pill/Red pill" choice; re-align one's perception in a way that brings certainty and clarity of focus, but at the exclusion of other possible ways of being.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There are Atheist versions of the same.  Haven't seen one of those in a while either. Why do you reckon that is?


I've thought about that on the Christian side quite a bit over the years (can't speak to the Atheist side) and Mrs. Wendy and I have discussed it pretty often. I've got no facts to back it up but here's what we've come up with. Fire and brimstone has largely been replaced with prosperity gospel either in word or substance and sometimes both. My response may sound like judgement of these churches and those that attend them but I mean it in only judging what *I* felt I got by attending these churches. Others may get everything they spiritually need from them.

Over the past 30 years, I've attended a number of churches in middle Georgia, both large and small. They were mostly a mix of Baptist and Methodist churches. On average, the smaller the church, the more direct the spiritual message was and there was more focus on the church member's relationship with God and how that relationship would have both triumphs and failures.
The larger the church, the more the message was "I'm ok, you're ok, everything is ok, God wants only good for you, so go get your blessing". While I believe God only wants good for me, I also believe that God doesn't build a good person by only giving them good things just as you don't get stronger by only lifting light weights and eating dessert. Some of the larger church's messages was better than others but all seemed to be focused on creating a "country club" atmosphere with coffee shops, workout rooms, etc. I just don't feel that kind of atmosphere is necessary for a church and distracts from what Christ instructed us to do. There was only one large church that I attended that the Pastor made the point of saying, "If what I'm saying isn't making you uncomfortable occasionally, then it's probably time for me to leave". That statement really got my respect.

So, long story short, and to answer your question: I think fire and brimstone (scaring people to Christianity) has been replaced with coffee shops and workout rooms (enticing people to Christianity) and that's why we've seen the explosion of large churches over the past 30-40 years.


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## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> My last remaining strong criticism of religion is the notion of Divine Revelation.  Do you think you could "steelman" a defence of its utility?


That's about the biggest waste of my time I can think of.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Someone more thinned skinned might take Danuwoa's statement as hostile and belittling.  It's subjective.  Let's all post pictures of our wives, girlfriends, mothers or daughters and go around critiquing their looks.  I could do it and take no offence at any remarks.  I know, because I've tried this exercise already.  Not everybody can.  Talking about people's deeply held religious beliefs is a similar endeavor.


I've met your wife, and she's a whole durn sight prettier than you are.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> That's about the biggest waste of my time I can think of.


 Okey dokie.


----------



## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Someone more thinned skinned might take Danuwoa's statement as hostile and belittling.  It's subjective.  Let's all post pictures of our wives, girlfriends, mothers or daughters and go around critiquing their looks.  I could do it and take no offence at any remarks.  I know, because I've tried this exercise already.  Not everybody can.  Talking about people's deeply held religious beliefs is a similar endeavor.


The contents of Danuwoa's post have no bearing on my point, and I am not sure why you have quoted and highlighted them together.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I've thought about that on the Christian side quite a bit over the years (can't speak to the Atheist side) and Mrs. Wendy and I have discussed it pretty often. I've got no facts to back it up but here's what we've come up with. Fire and brimstone has largely been replaced with prosperity gospel either in word or substance and sometimes both. My response may sound like judgement of these churches and those that attend them but I mean it in only judging what *I* felt I got by attending these churches. Others may get everything they spiritually need from them.
> 
> Over the past 30 years, I've attended a number of churches in middle Georgia, both large and small. They were mostly a mix of Baptist and Methodist churches. On average, the smaller the church, the more direct the spiritual message was and there was more focus on the church member's relationship with God and how that relationship would have both triumphs and failures.
> The larger the church, the more the message was "I'm ok, you're ok, everything is ok, God wants only good for you, so go get your blessing". While I believe God only wants good for me, I also believe that God doesn't build a good person by only giving them good things just as you don't get stronger by only lifting light weights and eating dessert. Some of the larger church's messages was better than others but all seemed to be focused on creating a "country club" atmosphere with coffee shops, workout rooms, etc. I just don't feel that kind of atmosphere is necessary for a church and distracts from what Christ instructed us to do. There was only one large church that I attended that the Pastor made the point of saying, "If what I'm saying isn't making you uncomfortable occasionally, then it's probably time for me to leave". That statement really got my respect.
> ...



I've wondered if the rise in multi culturalism has made it less acceptable for people to evangelize in that way anymore.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> The contents of Danuwoa's post have no bearing on my point, and I am not sure why you have quoted and highlighted them together.



You claim that Atheists here are hostile.  I was showing you how subjective that term is.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I've met your wife, and she's a whole durn sight prettier than you are.




Lucked out for sure.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've wondered if the rise in multi culturalism has made it less acceptable for people to evangelize in that way anymore.


I really think it's more basic than that. No matter the culture, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've wondered if the rise in multi culturalism has made it less acceptable for people to evangelize in that way anymore.



I don’t think it’s multiculturalism.  I think it’s been a focus on “church growth” where pastors look to the corporate world as the model.  Many pastors literally see themselves as CEOs rather than shepherds of their flocks.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I really think it's more basic than that. No matter the culture, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.



What do you think changed about the world which made the "fear" angle less effective?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I don’t think it’s multiculturalism.  I think it’s been a focus on “church growth” where pastors look to the corporate world as the model.  Many pastors literally see themselves as CEOs rather than shepherds of their flocks.



Nice.  Beat me to my next question.  Do you think that model dilutes the "message"?


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I don’t think it’s multiculturalism.  I think it’s been a focus on “church growth” where pastors look to the corporate world as the model.  Many pastors literally see themselves as CEOs rather than shepherds of their flocks.


Sadly, many of the prosperity gospel preachers we see on TV are like that in my opinion. My previous post touches on this as well.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think that model dilutes the "message"?



Absolutely.


----------



## RamblinWreck88 (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> You claim that Atheists here are hostile.  I was showing you how subjective that term is.


I fully agree on the subjectivity of that term, which is why I started that sentence in my original post with the phrase, "Seems like," indicating my understanding that my opinion is, to some extent, subjective.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Sadly, many of the prosperity gospel preachers we see on TV are like that in my opinion. My previous post touches on this as well.



Much of “TV Christianity” is appalling.  As a general rule, I would not attend a church that has a “TV ministry”.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Absolutely.



If the goal is to have people come to Christ, which I understand to mean believing that Jesus is the one true God, then isn't that accomplished by the mega churches?


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What do you think changed about the world which made the "fear" angle less effective?


Economic prosperity, cultural changes, generational changes, technology? My guess is that all have had an impact in some way or other. For example, just as the printing press changed Christianity forever, the internet has changed it also.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

RamblinWreck88 said:


> I fully agree on the subjectivity of that term, which is why I started that sentence in my original post with the phrase, "Seems like," indicating my understanding that my opinion is, to some extent, subjective.



There are believers here to which I could say "The belief in the Ark story as literal is irrational" and they would not take offense or consider it a personal attack on them.  The ones who would take offense don't stick around for the more interesting parts of the conversations.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Economic prosperity, cultural changes, generational changes, technology? My guess is that all have had an impact in some way or other. For example, just as the printing press changed Christianity forever, the internet has changed it also.



That seems right.  Sounds like progress.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If the goal is to have people come to Christ, which I understand to mean believing that Jesus is the one true God, then isn't that accomplished by the mega churches?



Well, they’re coming to _something_.

Are they coming to Christ, or are they coming to see the show at Church A because they put on better show than Church B across the street?


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If the goal is to have people come to Christ, which I understand to mean believing that Jesus is the one true God, then isn't that accomplished by the mega churches?


Well, I think it's more than just believing Jesus is the one true God. That revelation is supposed to cause believers to live a more Christ like life. Mega churches may accomplish that for some but I believe it takes Mega churches longer to do so. It's easy to believe in something when everything is great but I believe God wants well rounded Christians whose faith has been tested so a message that addresses both the highs and lows of being a believer builds a better Christian because it's a more complete message.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Well, they’re coming to _something_.
> 
> Are they coming to Christ, or are they coming to see the show at Church A because they put on better show than Church B across the street?



What does it matter if they declare Jesus is Lord.  I always thought that was the rub.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What do you think changed about the world which made the "fear" angle less effective?


That's actually a really good question. What sort of audience is the fire and brimstone message best suited to?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Well, I think it's more than just believing Jesus is the one true God. That revelation is supposed to cause believers to live a more Christ like life. Mega churches may accomplish that for some but I believe it takes Mega churches longer to do so. It's easy to believe in something when everything is great but I believe God wants well rounded Christians whose faith has been tested so a message that addresses both the highs and lows of being a believer builds a better Christian because it's a more complete message.



That sounds like it requires a way more personal interpretation of scripture than I would feel comfortable assigning to any person.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> That's actually a really good question. What sort of audience is the fire and brimstone message best suited to?



I would guess a less educated and less secular audience; one more prone to superstition.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What does it matter if they declare Jesus is Lord.  I always thought that was the rub.


James 2:14 addresses that in a way. Even demons know who Christ is.



ambush80 said:


> That sounds like it requires a way more personal interpretation of scripture than I would feel comfortable assigning to any person.


Oh no, not a personal interpretation at all. Scripture does tell us clearly that a good tree will bear good fruit. Of course, no one is perfect so our fruit will vary from time to time. I'd hate to think of some of the rotten fruit I've produced, figuratively speaking.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I would guess a less educated and secular audience; one more prone to superstition.


I agree. I grew up in those sort of churches. If you were brought up believing then it can be a pretty effective way to scare you into remaining in the fold or coming back to it if you've backslid. If you weren't then it's probably not the most effective message for someone coming from a secular background.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 28, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> That's actually a really good question. What sort of audience is the fire and brimstone message best suited to?


I have noticed that the further back in the woods and hollers you go, the more likely you are to find the hel!-screaming preachers, and they get less common the closer you get to town. If you go far enough back, they're not only hel!-screamers, but also maybe playing with pit vipers and drinking strychnine and holding their hands in flames.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What do you think changed about the world which made the "fear" angle less effective?


I think a lot of people just got tired of it, and figured out that it was a lot more enjoyable and relaxing to go fishing on Sunday morning than spending a couple of hours sitting on a pew with some feller pointing out all your faults, judging you, and screaming at you about how you're going to hel!.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> @WaltL1 gave a good response to the original question. The rest were a mixed bag with some sayin they dont answer to new folks or we been there already or what have you. Well its yalls forum so do whatever, but to me it seems the debate is not so much a debate in here, but more of a get a believer to name a specific thing from the bible so we can tell them how its wrong.





> Well its yalls forum


Nah. Its "our" forum. 3 As. Without the 3rd A (Apologetics) its pretty darn quiet around here. 


> get a believer to name a specific thing from the bible


 We dont have to get a believer to quote from the Bible. Thats usually the first thing that comes out of their mouth. Scripture says......
And thats understandable. But we/I do appreciate when they tell us what THEY personally think as opposed to what the Bible says.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Nah. Its "our" forum. 3 As. Without the 3rd A (Apologetics) its pretty darn quiet around here.


"Ain't no God."
"Yep. Aint one."
"What you want to talk about now?"
"Dunno."


----------



## OwlRNothing (Oct 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I think a lot of people just got tired of it, and figured out that it was a lot more enjoyable and relaxing to go fishing on Sunday morning than spending a couple of hours sitting on a pew with some feller pointing out all your faults, judging you, and screaming at you about how you're going to hel!.


Jesus never did any of this. Never screamed at anyone ( except maybe the money changers in the temple), never judged anyone, never pointed out faults. Even when He was at the well with the prostitute, he didn't condemn her. So a church that does this or a pastor that does this? That's not a legit church, or legit Christianity. Truth is there are alot of churches out there still today that take this route - maybe most of 'em still? That said, all of the devout Christian leaders and pastors that I've known in my life have pointed out that we all have faults, including themselves - that we are all going to be judged someday as to our belief in Jesus or not, including themselves, and that we are all going to **** without Christ as our savior. No yelling needed by real shepherds. The wide road is always more enjoyable and easier. Even the Bible says this. But sin is but for a season...... and few find the narrow way. Even fewer are willing to actually go down the narrow path. We are all sinners - selfish and in need of salvation. I'm not screaming it and I don't think all the other Christians are, either. We're offering a free gift from God - take it or leave it - it's all up to each person to decide their own fate.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Much of “TV Christianity” is appalling.  As a general rule, I would not attend a church that has a “TV ministry”.


It probably started out as a really good idea - bring the church/word into peoples homes who may not be able to get out and go to church (elderly etc).
Now, I honestly believe it does far more damage than good due to ratings, money, fame etc.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 28, 2022)

Even the Catholic church has been evolving to try to be more palatable to how western society has changed. It's fascinating to watch how different religions behave depending on whether they are in decline or on the rise.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What does it matter if they declare Jesus is Lord.  I always thought that was the rub.



“Not everyone who says to me, '*Lord, Lord,' will* *enter into the Kingdom of Heaven*;”

I think many of these churches preach a watered-down gospel.  People can be led to believe that praying a quick prayer and warming a pew fairly regularly will lead to eternal life.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> "Ain't no God."
> "Yep. Aint one."
> "What you want to talk about now?"
> "Dunno."


Exactly.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> It probably started out as a really good idea - bring the church/word into peoples homes who may not be able to get out and go to church (elderly etc).
> Now, I honestly believe it does far more damage than good due to ratings, money, fame etc.



Bishop Sheen was a huge hit on TV.  Admittedly, there wasn’t Netflix back then, but it’s still impressive.


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> It probably started out as a really good idea - bring the church/word into peoples homes who may not be able to get out and go to church (elderly etc).
> Now, I honestly believe it does far more damage than good due to ratings, money, fame etc.



I have seen some of the most ridiculous and completely inane displays on Christian television.

Three examples:


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I have seen some of the most ridiculous and completely inane displays on Christian television.
> 
> Three examples:


I put that Benny Hinn dude right up there at the top for the worst.
I will never, ever understand how that sheister became so popular. It actually really angers me to see Christian folks belief being taken advantage of like he did.
Been posted a million times but -


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 28, 2022)

Yep.  Benny is a theological disaster.  However, he has parlayed that into $$$.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 28, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> Jesus never did any of this. Never screamed at anyone ( except maybe the money changers in the temple), never judged anyone, never pointed out faults. Even when He was at the well with the prostitute, he didn't condemn her. So a church that does this or a pastor that does this? That's not a legit church, or legit Christianity. Truth is there are alot of churches out there still today that take this route - maybe most of 'em still? That said, all of the devout Christian leaders and pastors that I've known in my life have pointed out that we all have faults, including themselves - that we are all going to be judged someday as to our belief in Jesus or not, including themselves, and that we are all going to **** without Christ as our savior. No yelling needed by real shepherds. The wide road is always more enjoyable and easier. Even the Bible says this. But sin is but for a season...... and few find the narrow way. Even fewer are willing to actually go down the narrow path. We are all sinners - selfish and in need of salvation. I'm not screaming it and I don't think all the other Christians are, either. We're offering a free gift from God - take it or leave it - it's all up to each person to decide their own fate.


Exactly, Jesus didn't do it, but many folks who claim to be speaking on his behalf do.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I put that Benny Hinn dude right up there at the top for the worst.
> I will never, ever understand how that sheister became so popular. It actually really angers me to see Christian folks belief being taken advantage of like he did.
> Been posted a million times but -


Took a lot of willing participants for him to pull that off.


----------



## livinoutdoors (Oct 28, 2022)

Its hard to look at yourself aint it? To look at what you believe vs pointing outward.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Even the Catholic church has been evolving to try to be more palatable to how western society has changed. It's fascinating to watch how different religions behave depending on whether they are in decline or on the rise.


Hence the less than loving attitude towards the current Pope by many Catholics.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> James 2:14 addresses that in a way. Even demons know who Christ is.
> 
> 
> Oh no, not a personal interpretation at all. Scripture does tell us clearly that a good tree will bear good fruit. Of course, no one is perfect so our fruit will vary from time to time. I'd hate to think of some of the rotten fruit I've produced, figuratively speaking.



Some people like the thought of Jesus wielding a sword, others like the image of him holding a lamb.  Many will feel he's both of those things but will disagree on when to apply which example to a given situation.  I've seen a compelling case for Socialism based on scripture.  I've also seen compelling cases for gun ownership and also non-gun ownership based on scripture.  The answer to "What would Jesus do?" varies wildly amongst individuals.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 28, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> What's funny is this forum is already separated out of the other religious forums so that believers can have their echo chambers but that's not enough for some. They have to come in here and act like there's no point in having these conversations here either. Of course they will insist they don't care and aren't bothered by it, yet here they are posting about it.


Hard to argue that regarding a small handful of fly by nighters. I think it is fine for someone to ask about our purpose like Livinoutdoors has, get some answers and either move on or stick around and participate.  That is understandable. A few others share their theist knowledge and popping in and out. Also cool.
One or two just attend to troll and accuse those in here of doing the same things they do themselves in other forums.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Took a lot of willing participants for him to pull that off.


True.
Im gonna be really p.o.'d if Im down in the hot place and him and his crew aint down there with me


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> “Not everyone who says to me, '*Lord, Lord,' will* *enter into the Kingdom of Heaven*;”
> 
> I think many of these churches preach a watered-down gospel.  People can be led to believe that praying a quick prayer and warming a pew fairly regularly will lead to eternal life.



Everybody who believes thinks that the way that they are doing it is the right way.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> True.
> Im gonna be really p.o.'d if Im down in the hot place and him and his crew aint down there with me



Like the thief at the cross, all they have to do is declare Jesus Lord.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Hard to argue that regarding a small handful of fly by nighters. I think it is fine for someone to ask about our purpose like Livinoutdoors has, get some answers and either move on or stick around and participate.  That is understandable. A few others share their theist knowledge and popping in and out. Also cool.
> One or two just attend to troll and accuse those in here of doing the same things they do themselves in other forums.





> One or two just attend to troll and accuse those in here of doing the same things they do themselves in other forums.


Yep. Fortunately, like you said, its just a small number.
They use to anger me. Now I just pity them.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Like the thief at the cross, all they have to do is declare Jesus Lord.


If there is a (G)god, hopefully he will recognize they are just full of poop in their declaration.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Some people like the thought of Jesus wielding a sword, others like the image of him holding a lamb.  Many will feel he's both of those things but will disagree on when to apply which example to a given situation.  I've seen a compelling case for Socialism based on scripture.  I've also seen compelling cases for gun ownership and also non-gun ownership based on scripture.  The answer to "What would Jesus do?" varies wildly amongst individuals.


Christ is often called the lion and the lamb in that his first coming was as a lamb but his second coming will be as a lion so I suppose that's what those people are referring to. "What would Jesus do?" shouldn't be the question we ask ourselves. Jesus will do what Jesus will do on his own. The question should be "What did Jesus instruct *us* to do" and that's written in the scripture. Where he said "Do as I do", we should and where he said "Do this" we should. There are some other places in scripture where it's instructed we should do as Christ did as well.

Still, we are imperfect and will go off script and that's where we fail.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Like the thief at the cross, all they have to do is declare Jesus Lord.


that sounds a lot like the watered down version as was discussed earlier.  It isn't just  repeat a sentence and everything be ahright.    It has to be a heartfelt belief.  Something that changes the way that you react and your outlook.  

Anyone can say 'Jesus is Lord'  just like anyone can say 'Joe Biden is a great President'.  It is the true belief that makes the difference.

and no, I don't think Liden is a great president.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> that sounds a lot like the watered down version as was discussed earlier.  It isn't just  repeat a sentence and everything be ahright.    It has to be a heartfelt belief.  Something that changes the way that you react and your outlook.
> 
> Anyone can say 'Jesus is Lord'  just like anyone can say 'Joe Biden is a great President'.  It is the true belief that makes the difference.
> 
> and no, I don't think Liden is a great president.



Do you think it's possible for someone to truly believe in their heart of hearts Jesus is Lord.....and Vishnu, and Mohammad, and Buddha, and Ra.....?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Christ is often called the lion and the lamb in that his first coming was as a lamb but his second coming will be as a lion so I suppose that's what those people are referring to. "What would Jesus do?" shouldn't be the question we ask ourselves. Jesus will do what Jesus will do on his own. The question should be "What did Jesus instruct *us* to do" and that's written in the scripture. Where he said "Do as I do", we should and where he said "Do this" we should. There are some other places in scripture where it's instructed we should do as Christ did as well.
> 
> Still, we are imperfect and will go off script and that's where we fail.


 yep, you are correct.

John the Baptist even asked the question... Are you the One Who is to Come, or should we look for another?  This was after he had baptisted Jesus and declared him to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.  There was a huge ( and still is today) argument among the Jews over whether there are 2 Messiahs or just one, because scripture notes a Lamb that offers salvation, and a Lion that rules with an iron bar.  Mochiach benJoseph and Mochiach benDavid, or the Messiah, Son of Joseph and the Messiah, Son of David.

Zechariah Chap  9 describes benJoseph as a peaceful Lord that arrives on the back of a yet unridden foal of a donkey.  Then in chapter 14, he describes benDavid, the Lord who rules with a rod of iron.  It confused a lot of people because they didn't understand how one Messiah could be both a Lamb and a Lion


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

If a world leader said that they had prayed very hard and consulted with their religious leader and God told them that they should drop a nuke, would that make you feel better about their decision?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think it's possible for someone to truly believe in their heart of hearts Jesus is Lord.....and Vishnu, and Mohammad, and Buddha, and Ra.....?


If Jesus is truly the Lord of lords, then no... they can't believe that Vishnu, Mohammad or any of the others are anything but imposters


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Like the thief at the cross, all they have to do is declare Jesus Lord.


The lesson of the thief being crucified with Christ is more than that though. First, he chastised the other thief for mocking Jesus by telling him that they were getting what they deserved but that Christ was blameless. Second, he was sincere in his regret in the life he had lived and asked for forgiveness. Third, he recognized Christ as Lord and asked that he be allowed to enter heaven. The lesson isn't that one should live a sinful life and wait until their dying day for salvation, the lesson is that it's never too late for salvation.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If a world leader said that they had prayed very hard and consulted with their religious leader and God told them that they should drop a nuke, would that make you feel better about their decision?


Would it matter how I felt?  If I have no control over the situation than how I feel makes no difference


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> yep, you are correct.
> 
> John the Baptist even asked the question... Are you the One Who is to Come, or should we look for another?  This was after he had baptisted Jesus and declared him to be the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.  There was a huge ( and still is today) argument among the Jews over whether there are 2 Messiahs or just one, because scripture notes a Lamb that offers salvation, and a Lion that rules with an iron bar.  Mochiach benJoseph and Mochiach benDavid, or the Messiah, Son of Joseph and the Messiah, Son of David.
> 
> Zechariah Chap  9 describes benJoseph as a peaceful Lord that arrives on the back of a yet unridden foal of a donkey.  Then in chapter 14, he describes benDavid, the Lord who rules with a rod of iron.  It confused a lot of people because they didn't understand how one Messiah could be both a Lamb and a Lion



Even recognizing that there are various Christ models of behavior, who decides which model is appropriate to apply in any given situation?

What would you say to someone who said "I discerned that God instructed me to vote for Joe Biden"?


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> The lesson of the thief being crucified with Christ is more than that though. First, he chastised the other thief for mocking Jesus by telling him that they were getting what they deserved but that Christ was blameless. Second, he was sincere in his regret in the life he had lived and asked for forgiveness. Third, he recognized Christ as Lord and asked that he be allowed to enter heaven. The lesson isn't that one should live a sinful life and wait until their dying day for salvation, the lesson is that it's never too late for salvation.



But that will get you there none the less.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Even recognizing that there are various Christ models of behavior, who decides which model is appropriate to apply in any given situation?
> 
> What would you say to someone who said "I discerned that God instructed me to vote for Joe Biden"?




I'm asking because one of the most utilitarian purposes of a religious construct seems to me to be that it frames a moral guideline.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Would it matter how I felt?  If I have no control over the situation than how I feel makes no difference



Well, it might matter when it came time to vote for a particular person, if voting were how they got there.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Do you think it's possible for someone to truly believe in their heart of hearts Jesus is Lord.....and Vishnu, and Mohammad, and Buddha, and Ra.....?


That reminds me of this scene from The Mummy.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Would it matter how I felt?  If I have no control over the situation than how I feel makes no difference



If you felt very strongly against them you could do things.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> That reminds me of this scene from The Mummy.



Ah, Benny.... Hedging your bets works.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> But that will get you there none the less.


Not without some deep sincerity and that sort of thing isn't easy to come by, even when a person is living their last days.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Ah, Benny.... Hedging your bets works.


It did for Benny for a while anyways...


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Not without some deep sincerity and that sort of thing isn't easy to come by, even when a person is living their last days.



If fear is the reason for the change of heart does that count? (Going back to the Fire and Brimstone question).


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> If fear is the reason for the change of heart does that count?


I honestly don't know. God knows people's hearts. All I can do is live my life as best I can knowing that I'm going to mess up, be forgiven, and yet mess up again.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> "Ain't no God."
> "Yep. Aint one."
> "What you want to talk about now?"
> "Dunno."


.....

.....

.......

"But, what if there is?"


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I honestly don't know. God knows people's hearts. All I can do is live my life as best I can knowing that I'm going to mess up, be forgiven, and yet mess up again.



As read scripture, it seems like it still counts.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> As read scripture, it seems like it still counts.


Honestly, I stopped worrying about that a long time ago. It's not for me to decide something as heavy as that thankfully. Nowhere did the Bible say, "Rooster, you need to decide who's going to heaven and who aint!", and I'm glad! I couldn't handle that kind of responsibility!


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I don’t think it’s multiculturalism.  I think it’s been a focus on “church growth” where pastors look to the corporate world as the model.  Many pastors literally see themselves as CEOs rather than shepherds of their flocks.


In their defense once a church gets big enough pastors really do serve the function as a CEO. Realistically they can't be everywhere at once, so they have to delegate to a degree.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Honestly, I stopped worrying about that a long time ago. It's not for me to decide something as heavy as that thankfully. Nowhere did the Bible say, "Rooster, you need to decide who's going to heaven and who aint!", and I'm glad! I couldn't handle that kind of responsibility!


 I think you'd do a fine job.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I think you'd do a fine job.


Way beyond my pay grade! But besides, as I said before, while a Christian's beliefs may tell him that heaven will be his reward, life here and now is also blessed. And by blessed, I don't mean easy.


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## ambush80 (Oct 28, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Way beyond my pay grade! But besides, as I said before, while a Christian's beliefs may tell him that heaven will be his reward, life here and now is also blessed. And by blessed, I don't mean easy.



I would trust you with the fate of my eternal soul and I don't even know you.  (I'm guessing you would do as I would do to you).


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 28, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I would trust you with the fate of my eternal soul and I don't even know you.  (I'm guessing you would do as I would do to you).


You better hope I don't decide I want to learn how to play guitar!


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## earlthegoat2 (Oct 29, 2022)

I tend to think it is the believer crowd who instigate the non-believer crowd into defending their position and fortunately or unfortunately, it is pretty simple to defend the position of the lack of a god even if that defense seems weak by the believer crowd.

I could be wrong though.

Atheists and other non-believers want desperately to be right about what they believe otherwise they are really pooched come judgement time.

Believers also want to be right. Otherwise, they invested a bunch of time and energy and money into being wrong.

It’s pretty easy to see which of these groups has it easier while on this earth. (Atheists or other non-believers) This has to garner some resentment from the other side and definitely seems too. This resentment does not come inherently from the atheist’s belief system but rather their ability to live life without the stresses of significant amounts of time spent going to church or participating in church functions or donating significant portions of their income to church related causes or the pressure to teach their young ones all these things, just to name a few.

Non-believers may be viewed as being selfish and even lazy for just not participating. There are many non-believers who may not even realize they are a non-believer or an atheist but there are very few who never realize they are a believer in a god or gods. That atheist over there is wandering around in blissful ignorance. He looks way to happy and content and we can’t have that so we will just let them know they may have to pay for their non-belief.


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## bullethead (Oct 29, 2022)

earlthegoat2 said:


> I tend to think it is the believer crowd who instigate the non-believer crowd into defending their position and fortunately or unfortunately, it is pretty simple to defend the position of the lack of a god even if that defense seems weak by the believer crowd.
> 
> I could be wrong though.
> 
> ...


With over 10,000 Gods it isn't an either/or situation come judgement time. It seems like everyone should be padding their odds by preparing for at least 9,999 other possibilities.
Of course each individual thinks that they have it figured out and their God is the truth and they have been specially chosen to be part of the club, some believe there is no club at all, and some beleive that if there is a place to go to in the spiritual world that they will be a part of it without having to brown nose their way in.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

earlthegoat2 said:


> I tend to think it is the believer crowd who instigate the non-believer crowd into defending their position and fortunately or unfortunately, it is pretty simple to defend the position of the lack of a god even if that defense seems weak by the believer crowd.
> 
> I could be wrong though.
> 
> ...


"Atheists and other non-believers want desperately to be right about what they believe otherwise they are really pooched come judgement time." - earth goat 2

This statement sums up one of the "sticking points" I have with Christianity: an all-powerful incomprehensibly intelligent being who can create an entire universe in six days (well under budget and ahead of schedule) and went on to perform countless miracles that defied the laws of nature (has a whole book full of them) cannot -* or will not* - find a better way to punish those whom he created with the capacity for skepticism aimed at his existence than ETERNAL TORTURE.  The vastly superior being uses one of the most basic, INSTINCTIVE fears - the fear of physical pain - to ensure compliance in the belief of his existence. No matter what the "carrot" is if the "stick" is eternal torture, *then god doesn't offer humans a choice, he issues humans an ultimatum. *

Perhaps my moral compass is bent, but I just don't think that eternal torture is warranted under any conditions. Yes, god has the ability to toss us into the fire but the fact that he would even consider it is morally repulsive and hardly a good example of mercy. This brings me to another sticking point: the pure HYPOCRISY "the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one's own behavior does not conform" on display in Christianity. Not hypocrisy from the believers (all humans are flawed of course) but from their "perfect" creator. It's IMHO the very best example of "do as I say, not as I do" that could ever be conceived of. Just my 2 cents!


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Way beyond my pay grade! But besides, as I said before, while a Christian's beliefs may tell him that heaven will be his reward, life here and now is also blessed. And by blessed, I don't mean easy.


A person's life is "blessed" because they interpret their life as being blessed. 
It's all a question of their attitude. I feel that my life is blessed because I have an "attitude of gratitude" not because of any Christian beliefs, but because I know that life is tough by its very nature (consume or be consumed for as long as possible) and things can always be worse - and often are worse for many other people. Thus since I win the jackpot every day that I wake up alive with a roof over my head, I am grateful and try to remind myself that I need to keep things in perspective (hard for me sometimes) and keep my act together so that I can fulfill my responsibilities for those within my circle and even those outside my circle - basically every living thing on this planet.


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## brutally honest (Oct 29, 2022)

earlthegoat2 said:


> … but rather their ability to live life without the stresses of significant amounts of time spent going to church or participating in church functions or donating significant portions of their income to church related causes or the pressure to teach their young ones all these things, just to name a few.
> 
> Non-believers may be viewed as being selfish and even lazy for just not participating. There are many non-believers who may not even realize they are a non-believer or an atheist but there are very few who never realize they are a believer in a god or gods. That atheist over there is wandering around in blissful ignorance. He looks way to happy and content …



As I go through my daily life, I see very few people who seem “happy and content”.  Instead, I see what Jesus saw:

“And seeing the multitudes, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and downcast like sheep without a shepherd.”

Further, I would never describe my Christian life as “stressed” or “pressured”.  It is an oasis in a desert of stress and pressure.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> As I go through my daily life, I see very few people who seem “happy and content”.  Instead, I see what Jesus saw:
> 
> “And seeing the multitudes, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and downcast like sheep without a shepherd.”
> 
> Further, I would never describe my Christian life as “stressed” or “pressured”.  It is an oasis in a desert of stress and pressure.


Then for you, Christianity is a positive benefit - glad that it's working out for you. Stress & pressure never helps anyone in the long run.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> A person's life is "blessed" because they interpret their life as being blessed.
> It's all a question of their attitude. I feel that my life is blessed because I have an "attitude of gratitude" not because of any Christian beliefs, but because I know that life is tough by its very nature (consume or be consumed for as long as possible) and things can always be worse - and often are worse for many other people. Thus since I win the jackpot every day that I wake up alive with a roof over my head, I am grateful and try to remind myself that I need to keep things in perspective (hard for me sometimes) and keep my act together so that I can fulfill my responsibilities for those within my circle and even those outside my circle - basically every living thing on this planet.


Attitude is important, no doubt.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

Whether a person is happy or miserable is largely up to them. The atheist that feels they have freed themselves from the burden of religious requirements may rejoice, yet others will lash out at others in anger as they view the lack of meaning in their own lives as a short coming. A person attending a church that demands large amounts of time and money, with a constant reminder that they are a sinner who can do no right may be unhappy with life. Yet others who are bound by a vow of silence and a life of poverty and service rejoice at every sunrise. Both religion and the removal of it have been the reason for death and destruction, and at the same time both have been the reason for hope, joy, and peace.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Whether a person is happy or miserable is largely up to them. The atheist that feels they have freed themselves from the burden of religious requirements may rejoice, yet others will lash out at others in anger as they view the lack of meaning in their own lives as a short coming. A person attending a church that demands large amounts of time and money, with a constant reminder that they are a sinner who can do no right may be unhappy with life. Yet others who are bound by a vow of silence and a life of poverty and service rejoice at every sunrise. Both religion and the removal of it have been the reason for death and destruction, and at the same time both have been the reason for hope, joy, and peace.



Good and true points! IMHO while many (possibly all!) events & situations & their associated outcomes are out of our control, our attitudes are generally the one thing we can control but it takes effort & introspection. 

Related sidenote: a few years ago, I was going through some rough "when it rains it pours" times. I happened to have talk radio on and there was an interview with a guy who got captured - along with some other people too - and held captive by bad actors in the sandbox. The most important lesson he learned was if you want to survive with your sanity intact, you need to give up hope and roll with the punches. I've heard other people in similar situations say the same thing. But here is his reasoning: the captives who constantly got their hopes up ended up continuously disappointed & heartbroken when the kidnappers negotiations fell through. This constant emotional rollercoaster of getting their hopes up then getting their hopes destroyed was degrading their mental & physical health. The guy realized that his focus & energies were better spent figuring out how to deal with each day as it came. If he woke up alive, he got right back into dealing with whatever came his way that day. 
Something to think about!


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good and true points! IMHO while many (possibly all!) events & situations & their associated outcomes are out of our control, our attitudes are generally the one thing we can control but it takes effort & introspection.
> 
> Related sidenote: a few years ago, I was going through some rough "when it rains it pours" times. I happened to have talk radio on and there was an interview with a guy who got captured - along with some other people too - and held captive by bad actors in the sandbox. The most important lesson he learned was if you want to survive with your sanity intact, you need to give up hope and roll with the punches. I've heard other people in similar situations say the same thing. But here is his reasoning: the captives who constantly got their hopes up ended up continuously disappointed & heartbroken when the kidnappers negotiations fell through. This constant emotional rollercoaster of getting their hopes up then getting their hopes destroyed was degrading their mental & physical health. The guy realized that his focus & energies were better spent figuring out how to deal with each day as it came. If he woke up alive, he got right back into dealing with whatever came his way that day.
> Something to think about!


Why not do both? Have hope but still deal with each day as it comes. It's not like it's an either/or choice. I guess different people cope with difficult situations in different ways. Everything I've read about POW's in Vietnam ran the whole gambit of those who never gave up hope to those that just gave up and died to everything in between.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good and true points! IMHO while many (possibly all!) events & situations & their associated outcomes are out of our control, our attitudes are generally the one thing we can control but it takes effort & introspection.
> 
> Related sidenote: a few years ago, I was going through some rough "when it rains it pours" times. I happened to have talk radio on and there was an interview with a guy who got captured - along with some other people too - and held captive by bad actors in the sandbox. The most important lesson he learned was if you want to survive with your sanity intact, you need to give up hope and roll with the punches. I've heard other people in similar situations say the same thing. But here is his reasoning: the captives who constantly got their hopes up ended up continuously disappointed & heartbroken when the kidnappers negotiations fell through. This constant emotional rollercoaster of getting their hopes up then getting their hopes destroyed was degrading their mental & physical health. The guy realized that his focus & energies were better spent figuring out how to deal with each day as it came. If he woke up alive, he got right back into dealing with whatever came his way that day.
> Something to think about!



There's comfort in thinking someone is at the helm, and there's comfort in thinking no one is at the helm and you are responsible for yourself best you can.

No one is responsible for your happiness except yourself.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Why not do both? Have hope but still deal with each day as it comes. It's not like it's an either/or choice. I guess different people cope with difficult situations in different ways. Everything I've read about POW's in Vietnam ran the whole gambit of those who never gave up hope to those that just gave up and died to everything in between.



I've read some studies that say patients with "hope" heal better and when they don't, they die better.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've read some studies that say patients with "hope" heal better and when they don't, they die better.


Yep, there's no doubt that regardless of faith, a positive attitude has positive results on the human body. Stress is a killer.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

earlthegoat2 said:


> I tend to think it is the believer crowd who instigate the non-believer crowd into defending their position and fortunately or unfortunately, it is pretty simple to defend the position of the lack of a god even if that defense seems weak by the believer crowd.
> 
> I could be wrong though.
> 
> ...




Remember when you stopped being afraid of ghosts (assuming that you have)?  That's what the "fear" of He11 is like.  I still get spooked sometimes but can shake it off.  Believers will tell you that they don't take any pleasure in thinking that most of the people who have lived, are living, and will ever live, will burn in He11 for eternity. But when they are honest, they will tell you that that's the penalty for your sin and they are relieved that they made the right choice.

Living is just tough.  There are many ways to make it bearable.

I'm still in the habit of calling religious doctrines "ready guides", like they're some kind of life hack.  But, in a sense they are, and they mostly work.  I'm trying to understand why they work and how to replace them with something less divisive and more universal.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Yep, there's no doubt that regardless of faith, a positive attitude has positive results on the human body. Stress is a killer.



There's something good about to coming to terms with the inevitable.

I like Jordan Peterson's message to young people.  He often warns that "Life is hard. You better find a way to accept that and deal with it".


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I'm still in the habit of calling religious doctrines "ready guides", like they're some kind of life hack.  But, in a sense they are, and they mostly work.  I'm trying to understand why they work and how to replace them with something less divisive and more universal.


It's true. In many ways the Bible and the Torah are one of, if not the earliest, books on psychology and military strategy, amongst other things.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good and true points! IMHO while many (possibly all!) events & situations & their associated outcomes are out of our control, our attitudes are generally the one thing we can control but it takes effort & introspection.
> 
> Related sidenote: a few years ago, I was going through some rough "when it rains it pours" times. I happened to have talk radio on and there was an interview with a guy who got captured - along with some other people too - and held captive by bad actors in the sandbox. The most important lesson he learned was if you want to survive with your sanity intact, you need to give up hope and roll with the punches. I've heard other people in similar situations say the same thing. But here is his reasoning: the captives who constantly got their hopes up ended up continuously disappointed & heartbroken when the kidnappers negotiations fell through. This constant emotional rollercoaster of getting their hopes up then getting their hopes destroyed was degrading their mental & physical health. The guy realized that his focus & energies were better spent figuring out how to deal with each day as it came. If he woke up alive, he got right back into dealing with whatever came his way that day.
> Something to think about!



There's much research that shows that "wallowing" in one's misery is bad.  They found that when Vietnam vets were placed together to "work out their problems" by reliving their traumas that they would often embellish the degree of trauma over time and sometimes assume to themselves the traumas that they heard others describe.

Holocaust survivors who tried their best to get on with their lives as before the trauma fared well.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> There's something good about to coming to terms with the inevitable.
> 
> I like Jordan Peterson's message to young people.  He often warns that "Life is hard. You better find a way to accept that and deal with it".


I enjoy listening to Jordan Peterson on YouTube. He has a talent for breaking complicated things down to a level everyone can understand.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> It's true. In many ways the Bible and the Torah are one of, if not the earliest, books on psychology and military strategy, amongst other things.



The principles are mostly sound but need an update


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I enjoy listening to Jordan Peterson on YouTube. He has a talent for breaking complicated things down to a level everyone can understand.



I listened to allot of his stuff.  He seems to have gone off the rails a bit.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> The principles are mostly sound but need an update


Well, despite advancements in technology, man hasn't invented any new vices. We've only found new ways to act on the good old vices quicker, easier, and more efficiently.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I listened to allot of his stuff.  He seems to have gone off the rails a bit.


I don't know if he's gone off the rails, but some of his views are "unique" in that they're a mixture that covers a lot of political, religious, and psychological spectrums.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I don't know if he's gone off the rails, but some of his views are "unique" in that they're a mixture that covers a lot of political, religious, and psychological spectrums.


He seems angrier than he used to.  I imagine he's had to deal with allot of hate.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> He seems angrier than he used to.  I imagine he's had to deal with allot of hate.


That's a fact. The hate directed his way for either sharing the results of studies or sharing his professional opinion has increased significantly. Especially his opinions on compelled speech.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Yep, there's no doubt that regardless of faith, a positive attitude has positive results on the human body. Stress is a killer.



You indeed can have a positive attitude without "hope" or faith It all depends on the individual. If you have hope and things get worse (or don't improve) that could give you a negative attitude and stress you out. For myself, being a realist seems to suit me the best. If faith is your cup of tea, then don't change what works for you.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Remember when you stopped being afraid of ghosts (assuming that you have)?  That's what the "fear" of He11 is like.  I still get spooked sometimes but can shake it off.  Believers will tell you that they don't take any pleasure in thinking that most of the people who have lived, are living, and will ever live, will burn in He11 for eternity. But when they are honest, they will tell you that that's the penalty for your sin and they are relieved that they made the right choice.
> 
> Living is just tough.  There are many ways to make it bearable.
> 
> I'm still in the habit of calling religious doctrines "ready guides", like they're some kind of life hack.  But, in a sense they are, and they mostly work.  I'm trying to understand why they work and how to replace them with something less divisive and more universal.


 I agree that living is tough, and most of the world has it much rougher than any of us. That's another reason eternal torture is morally wrong. Life is very hard, so why add fuel to the fire (no pun intended) by eternally torturing people just because you can? It's sickening to be perfectly honest.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> The principles are mostly sound but need an update


No doubt! You behave like the Israelites did to the Canaanites (under gods guidance, encouragement and protection) and you'll go to prison for war crimes for sure!


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> That's a fact. The hate directed his way for either sharing the results of studies or sharing his professional opinion has increased significantly. Especially his opinions on compelled speech.


I've heard of Jordan Peterson but I've never seen any of his interviews, debates, or videos. I have no idea what "compelled speech" is, but I'll check it out this evening.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I've heard of Jordan Peterson but I've never seen any of his interviews, debates, or videos. I have no idea what "compelled speech" is, but I'll check it out this evening.


He mainly uses the phrase in expressing his disagreement with using someone's preferred pronouns in opposition to their biological sex.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I've heard of Jordan Peterson but I've never seen any of his interviews, debates, or videos. I have no idea what "compelled speech" is, but I'll check it out this evening.


The debates he had with Sam Harris are dense, and long, and intense. Some people would call them boring. I actually saw one of them live while visiting my brother in Vancouver.  This is not the one I went to.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I agree that living is tough, and most of the world has it much rougher than any of us. That's another reason eternal torture is morally wrong. Life is very hard, so why add fuel to the fire (no pun intended) by eternally torturing people just because you can? It's sickening to be perfectly honest.



Part of the presently occurring reformation of Christianity that I observe is the move away from the idea that He11 is an actual place where you experience never ending torture.  The ideas that He11 is a "separation from God" or that non-believers' souls simply cease to exist seem to be gaining more acceptance. 

It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> He mainly uses the phrase in expressing his disagreement with using someone's preferred pronouns in opposition to their biological sex.



This subject is where his influence extends into politics and the culture war.  He has a whole entire element of discourse that deals with suffering, getting one's life in order, and the utility of the Christian Gospel.  Me and my wife read his book _12 Rules for Life_.  It's a pretty good self help guide, particularly for young men.  He seems to have struck a chord with young men.  That's good.  They need someone like him.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> He mainly uses the phrase in expressing his disagreement with using someone's preferred pronouns in opposition to their biological sex.



He's said many times that he would use someone's preferred pronouns if they asked him nicely and if they weren't insisting upon it as some kind of power play.  His main beef is with the govt. punishing people for not using "The right words".


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> It's true. In many ways the Bible and the Torah are one of, if not the earliest, books on psychology and military strategy, amongst other things.



They're a useful tool for particular types of problems.  The cure for leprosy is not one of them.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> He's said many times that he would use someone's preferred pronouns if they asked him nicely and if they weren't insisting upon it as some kind of power play.  His main beef is with the govt. punishing people for not using "The right words".


Ben Shapiro said something similar along the lines that while he might use a person's preferred pronouns if he was having dinner with them just out of common courtesy and politeness but to be compelled to use them or be punished by society is wrong on many levels.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> You indeed can have a positive attitude without "hope" or faith It all depends on the individual. If you have hope and things get worse (or don't improve) that could give you a negative attitude and stress you out. For myself, being a realist seems to suit me the best. If faith is your cup of tea, then don't change what works for you.



Jordan Peterson was asked if he thought God is real.  He said "I act as if He is".  A subtle distinction.  Bret Weinstein said "There are some ideas that may not literally be true, but if we act as if they are, there is a net positive". An example he gives is "Treat all guns as if they're loaded".


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Ben Shapiro said something similar along the lines that while he might use a person's preferred pronouns if he was having dinner with them just out of common courtesy and politeness but to be compelled to use them or be punished by society is wrong on many levels.



Yes.  He often refers to Blaire White, a conservative trans woman, as an example of how he navigates this.  He will call Blaire "she/her" in social interactions but if he talks about her biology he will say that Blaire is a male.  Look how kooky it is to even write sentences about this issue.  I have to move between calling Blaire "he" and "her" depending on the context.  I if I were hanging out with Blaire, it seems like it would be natural to say "Where did _she_ go?".  It would seem more forced and awkward to say "Where did _he_ go?".  I would prefer she use the girls bathroom.  WWJD?


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Yes.  He often refers to Blaire White, a conservative trans woman, as an example of how he navigates this.  He will call Blaire "she/her" in social interactions but if he talks about her biology he will say that Blaire is a male.  Look how kooky it is to even write sentences about this issue.  I have to move between calling Blaire "he" and "her" depending on the context.  I if I were hanging out with Blaire, it seems like it would be natural to say "Where did _she_ go?".  It would seem more forced and awkward to say "Where did _he_ go?".  I would prefer she use the girls bathroom.  WWJD?


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


>



Not really covered in scripture, except maybe the "man laying with man as if with woman" part.  I'm guessing people will discern what to do very differently.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Not really covered in scripture, except maybe the "man laying with man as if with woman" part.  I'm guessing people will discern what to do very differently.


Yes, sexual preference, bathroom preference, and cross dressing are all very different things. The first is addressed in scripture but I'm not aware that the other two are.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Part of the presently occurring reformation of Christianity that I observe is the move away from the idea that He11 is an actual place where you experience never ending torture.  The ideas that He11 is a "separation from God" or that non-believers' souls simply cease to exist seem to be gaining more acceptance.
> 
> It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.





> It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.


I think, in general, thats the dominant ingrained human response.
Although mercy and grace sounds great, I think those that can actually achieve it are on a much smaller scale.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> He mainly uses the phrase in expressing his disagreement with using someone's preferred pronouns in opposition to their biological sex.



I just saw the clip. He's not wrong! The made-up pronouns thing is ridiculous and benefits nobody in the long run.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Part of the presently occurring reformation of Christianity that I observe is the move away from the idea that He11 is an actual place where you experience never ending torture.  The ideas that He11 is a "separation from God" or that non-believers' souls simply cease to exist seem to be gaining more acceptance.
> 
> It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.


I totally support the "nonbelievers cease to exist" idea. As for believer bitterness I'm sure there's a part in the NT where Jesus says if you agree to get paid X amount to work a full day not to get upset if another worker gets X (the same) amount for only working part of the day.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Jordan Peterson was asked if he thought God is real.  He said "I act as if He is".  A subtle distinction.  Bret Weinstein said "There are some ideas that may not literally be true, but if we act as if they are, there is a net positive". An example he gives is "Treat all guns as if they're loaded".


Hmmm....... acting as if something is true can be a slippery slope when it comes to religion. It sort of begs the question of if it's okay to give somebody (or yourself) false hope. Yes, false hope can be a net positive if only as a sort of "placebo effect" but I personally don't feel comfortable with it.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Hmmm....... acting as if something is true can be a slippery slope when it comes to religion. It sort of begs the question of if it's okay to give somebody (or yourself) false hope. Yes, false hope can be a net positive if only as a sort of "placebo effect" but I personally don't feel comfortable with it.


But you cant say for certain that its false hope. No one can. So why care? If someone gains hope then dies and nothing happens then it doesnt matter right. They lived with false hope and then are gone. No blame. No remorse.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Yes.  He often refers to Blaire White, a conservative trans woman, as an example of how he navigates this.  He will call Blaire "she/her" in social interactions but if he talks about her biology he will say that Blaire is a male.  Look how kooky it is to even write sentences about this issue.  I have to move between calling Blaire "he" and "her" depending on the context.  I if I were hanging out with Blaire, it seems like it would be natural to say "Where did _she_ go?".  It would seem more forced and awkward to say "Where did _he_ go?".  I would prefer she use the girls bathroom.  WWJD?


JW set he/her on fire.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Part of the presently occurring reformation of Christianity that I observe is the move away from the idea that He11 is an actual place where you experience never ending torture.  The ideas that He11 is a "separation from God" or that non-believers' souls simply cease to exist seem to be gaining more acceptance.
> 
> It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.


The concept of never ending torture is not a part of all belief systems.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> The concept of never ending torture is not a part of all belief systems.


It was the main part of the one I grew up in.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> It was the main part of the one I grew up in.


I was just pointing out that not all folks believe that. I get that some do.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> It was the main part of the one I grew up in.


I can also see how that would push folks away.


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## ambush80 (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I was just pointing out that not all folks believe that. I get that some do.



    Most do.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Most do.


Most who?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Most who?


Churches I've ever set foot in. The main topic is you're going to hel!, and why.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Churches I've ever set foot in. The main topic is you're going to hel!, and why.


Well thats one belief system. Not all believe that


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Churches I've ever set foot in. The main topic is you're going to hel!, and why.


Was that at first hindu temple of n.c. ?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Was that at first hindu temple of n.c. ?


Baptist. The Hindus have actually built a big temple on top of a mountain a few miles from here, now. I think they are more about reincarnation than eternal burning in hel!.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Well thats one belief system. Not all believe that


Just all of them I've ever been to. That's a lot of them. Growing up I was forced to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Continuous revivals every night, camp meetings, Bible School, and whatnot.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Just all of them I've ever been to. That's a lot of them. Growing up I was forced to be in church Sunday morning, Sunday night, Wednesday night, Continuous revivals every night, camp meetings, Bible School, and whatnot.


Right but like you said hindus dont


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> The concept of never ending torture is not a part of all belief systems.


Like i said


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## WaltL1 (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Well thats one belief system. Not all believe that


Not even all Christians believe that. I think the "average" Christian does but some who delve a little deeper into it question that concept.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 29, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Hmmm....... acting as if something is true can be a slippery slope when it comes to religion. It sort of begs the question of if it's okay to give somebody (or yourself) false hope. Yes, false hope can be a net positive if only as a sort of "placebo effect" but I personally don't feel comfortable with it.


To me, acting as if something is real means "no I dont believe its real".


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 29, 2022)

bullethead said:


> With over 10,000 Gods it isn't an either/or situation come judgement time. It seems like everyone should be padding their odds by preparing for at least 9,999 other possibilities.
> Of course each individual thinks that they have it figured out and their God is the truth and they have been specially chosen to be part of the club, some believe there is no club at all, and some beleive that if there is a place to go to in the spiritual world that they will be a part of it without having to brown nose their way in.


It's a good thing you didn't include all the Hindu gods.  They claim there are over 100 million gods and goddesses.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 29, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Part of the presently occurring reformation of Christianity that I observe is the move away from the idea that He11 is an actual place where you experience never ending torture.  The ideas that He11 is a "separation from God" or that non-believers' souls simply cease to exist seem to be gaining more acceptance.
> 
> It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.



It isn't so much that the believers dislike the new interpretations, it is that the new interpretations are not accurate in their translation from the original texts.  It is a deviation from scripture.

If Christians are going to follow Christ, then perhaps they should follow His teachings instead of someone's modern day thoughts on the subject.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> The concept of never ending torture is not a part of all belief systems.


That is true, but according to the majority of Christians these other religions "aren't doing it right" thus they are destined for the hot place/never ending torture whether they believe in it or not.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 29, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Baptist. The Hindus have actually built a big temple on top of a mountain a few miles from here, now. I think they are more about reincarnation than eternal burning in hel!.


Well are they ever in for a rude awakening!   There is a Hindu temple down the road from me. It's an interesting yellow color and kind of looks like something you find at Disney World with the weirdly shaped roof and everything. Here is a picture of it:


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## WaltL1 (Oct 30, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> It isn't so much that the believers dislike the new interpretations, it is that the new interpretations are not accurate in their translation from the original texts.  It is a deviation from scripture.
> 
> If Christians are going to follow Christ, then perhaps they should follow His teachings instead of someone's modern day thoughts on the subject.





> If Christians are going to follow Christ, then perhaps they should follow His teachings instead of someone's modern day thoughts on the subject.


I dont know this for a fact but if you were to remove all the "modern" stuff...
That ^ would probably bankrupt the vast majority of churches today.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 30, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Churches I've ever set foot in. The main topic is you're going to hel!, and why.


I can say thats one big difference about the RC churches I attended. 
Sure going to he11 was a known but it was never the focus of a Mass.


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## atlashunter (Oct 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I've read some studies that say patients with "hope" heal better and when they don't, they die better.


Optimism is great as long as it doesn’t cross over to delusion.


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## atlashunter (Oct 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Part of the presently occurring reformation of Christianity that I observe is the move away from the idea that He11 is an actual place where you experience never ending torture.  The ideas that He11 is a "separation from God" or that non-believers' souls simply cease to exist seem to be gaining more acceptance.
> 
> It's interesting that the believers who dislike these new interpretations seem to feel as if they're a cop out; as if there's bitterness at the thought that nonbelievers aren't getting what they "deserve".  You would think that they, filled with grace and mercy, would prefer the newer interpretations.


Or maybe they just don’t like pc revisionism of what they hold to be true?


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Or maybe they just don’t like pc revisionism of what they hold to be true?


I think (I could be wrong) that the "fire & brimstone" preaching started to go out of style before the whole "PC" thing got entrenched into our culture.


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## ambush80 (Oct 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Or maybe they just don’t like pc revisionism of what they hold to be true?


What's that that Max Planck said?  “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” I think it's the same with religious doctrines.   They've been moving in a less literal direction forever.  The olds will call it watering down.  The youngs will call it progress.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What's that that Max Planck said?  “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” I think it's the same with religious doctrines.   They've been moving in a less literal direction forever.  The olds will call it watering down.  The youngs will call it progress.


I can't say what anyone else's issue is with fire and brimstone but my issue with it is the same issue I have with prosperity gospel. Both are only partial messages. I want the full message no matter what we're talking about, religion or anything else.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What's that that Max Planck said?  “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” I think it's the same with religious doctrines.   They've been moving in a less literal direction forever.  The olds will call it watering down.  The youngs will call it progress.


or maybe.........evolution!


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I can't say what anyone else's issue is with fire and brimstone but my issue with it is the same issue I have with prosperity gospel. Both are only partial messages. I want the full message no matter what we're talking about, religion or anything else.


good point! It's what you_ don't _hear that might be the most important part of any message.


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## ambush80 (Oct 30, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I can't say what anyone else's issue is with fire and brimstone but my issue with it is the same issue I have with prosperity gospel. Both are only partial messages. I want the full message no matter what we're talking about, religion or anything else.




This exchange is exactly what we're talking about:






Sam's take on why literalists will always have the advantage over reformists is compelling.  "We can't read it literally because it either makes no sense or it makes barbaric sense".


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## ambush80 (Oct 30, 2022)

Bret's excellent analysis about how a fiction, treated as fact can result in a net positive, also a support for my position that religious doctrines are useful life hacks.  






Do you find his conclusion that some people need the stories because they're incapable of discerning the lesson by making complicated philosophical analysis patronizing?


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Bret's excellent analysis about how a fiction, treated as fact can result in a net positive, also a support for my position that religious doctrines are useful life hacks.
> 
> Do you find his conclusion that some people need the stories because they're incapable of discerning the lesson by making complicated philosophical analysis patronizing?


No, I don't find it patronizing at all. Everyone's experience and exposure to other people is different so life lessons will take different paths.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 30, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I can't say what anyone else's issue is with fire and brimstone but my issue with it is the same issue I have with prosperity gospel. Both are only partial messages. I want the full message no matter what we're talking about, religion or anything else.



I was thinking the same thing.  I don't know of a preacher that expounds on the hot place in every message, or would even mention it in every message.  I do know that my pastor didn't mention it in this mornings message, and it was just a passing sentence in the Bible study on Wednesday as we are studying The Revelation.  

I wondered just how much hades was taught, and suppose that it may have just been a sticking point with some and it stands out in their memories.  I very seldom give it a second thought, and never fear it because I know that I am redeemed and don't have to worry about my destination.  If that weren't the case, perhaps when I thought of eternity, the hot spot might weigh a bit more on my mind.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Bret's excellent analysis about how a fiction, treated as fact can result in a net positive, also a support for my position that religious doctrines are useful life hacks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would really have to think for a while about your question. As for your statement, yes religious stories/doctrines can be useful life hacks and are one of the reasons religions have been around so long. HOWEVER that puts religion on the level of (and similar value of) any other philosophy or mindset that might come along and doesn't address the DIVINITY/HOLY GRAVITAS/UNQUESTIONED AUTHORITY/SUPERNATURAL element that only religions (such as Christianity) can lay claim to.  Realistically I could write a bestselling book that guarantees the readers a better, more satisfying life and my ideas could be so effective that nearly the entire world buys into my life hack but it wouldn't address the deeeeeeepest unanswered questions of "why are humans here?" "what happens when you die?" "why is there injustice in the world?" that religions - fictional as they are -_ seem_ to answer.

It's almost like people don't want reality-based answers to life's complicated questions because literally millions of fellow humans can figure out logical, provable answers to their questions, but most people want to think that there's a higher power that's infinitely greater & infallible than themselves or even their smartest fellow humans. 

IMHO humans are on this planet ALONE!  Nobody is watching over us,
but at the same time nobody is judging us either. There are most certainly other planets full of intelligent beings and most likely they are their own too. Obviously I can't prove this, but maybe somebody will be able to eventually. Regardless the religious books are fiction and they have no reality-based answers that humans can't figure out (or not yet figure out) on our own.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  I don't know of a preacher that expounds on the hot place in every message, or would even mention it in every message.  I do know that my pastor didn't mention it in this mornings message, and it was just a passing sentence in the Bible study on Wednesday as we are studying The Revelation.
> 
> I wondered just how much hades was taught, and suppose that it may have just been a sticking point with some and it stands out in their memories.  I very seldom give it a second thought, and never fear it because I know that I am redeemed and don't have to worry about my destination.  If that weren't the case, perhaps when I thought of eternity, the hot spot might weigh a bit more on my mind.


For myself "the hot place" is EXTREMELY important because - as I stated many times - it's my main beef with Christianity. They can talk about love, mercy, fairness, redemption, yada yada yada but if eternal torture is even on the table - if it's even in your toolbox - god or not, you are morally bankrupt and worse than any "evil" you allegedly oppose. Just my opinion of course.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I would really have to think for a while about your question. As for your statement, yes religious stories/doctrines can be useful life hacks and are one of the reasons religions have been around so long. HOWEVER that puts religion on the level of (and similar value of) any other philosophy or mindset that might come along and doesn't address the DIVINITY/HOLY GRAVITAS/UNQUESTIONED AUTHORITY/SUPERNATURAL element that only religions (such as Christianity) can lay claim to.  Realistically I could write a bestselling book that guarantees the readers a better, more satisfying life and my ideas could be so effective that nearly the entire world buys into my life hack but it wouldn't address the deeeeeeepest unanswered questions of "why are humans here?" "what happens when you die?" "why is there injustice in the world?" that religions - fictional as they are -_ seem_ to answer.
> 
> It's almost like people don't want reality-based answers to life's complicated questions because literally millions of fellow humans can figure out logical, provable answers to their questions, but most people want to think that there's a higher power that's infinitely greater & infallible than themselves or even their smartest fellow humans.
> 
> ...


The why are we here? Question seems even more interesting when held up to the current scientific description of time and where we are at in that time. I watched a doc here recently that called this time the age of stars, and that this was the period of light and life in the universe. That after this time when the last star burns out the universe would sit in darkness void of life. This next period is said to be many many many times longer than this current age of stars. In fact the claim was this age of stars it hardly a blip compared to the time of darkness. Seems pretty darn pointless when you paint it like that.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 30, 2022)

I would also note that the atheists in this forum seemed focused on disproving the christian faith and its book the bible. Do you spend any time considering and or rejecting the ideas of other faiths or just the one? Do any other ideas seem more credible to you?


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> For myself "the hot place" is EXTREMELY important because - as I stated many times - it's my main beef with Christianity. They can talk about love, mercy, fairness, redemption, yada yada yada but if eternal torture is even on the table - if it's even in your toolbox - god or not, you are morally bankrupt and worse than any "evil" you allegedly oppose. Just my opinion of course.



it is because God is the ultimate moral authority that there is a hot spot.  He can't dwell with any moral deficit, and we all have them.  

You know the entire program so there is no need for me to expound on it.  

I have heard all the AA side, and totally disagree.  We aren't going to change each other here on our stands. All I am asked to do is live as close to the mark as I can, and trust God to do the rest.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I would also note that the atheists in this forum seemed focused on disproving the christian faith and its book the bible. Do you spend any time considering and or rejecting the ideas of other faiths or just the one? Do any other ideas seem more credible to you?


IMHO all are fiction - name your poison!  No religious books are the word of god(s) unless you can convince me that there are thousands (heck let's just say a handful of major religions) of different gods, all with their own agendas yet all are "the truth" simultaneously. So why Christianity/the bible? Because that is the religion I am the most familiar with due to geography, as are most people on this forum.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> The why are we here? Question seems even more interesting when held up to the current scientific description of time and where we are at in that time. I watched a doc here recently that called this time the age of stars, and that this was the period of light and life in the universe. That after this time when the last star burns out the universe would sit in darkness void of life. This next period is said to be many many many times longer than this current age of stars. In fact the claim was this age of stars it hardly a blip compared to the time of darkness. Seems pretty darn pointless when you paint it like that.


Not at all pointless to the species that searches for a point. And we humans can define and find the points among ourselves. The point is what we say the point is, whether on an individual or collective level. It's all abstraction & imagination anyway as far as I can tell. The "universe" is on its own trajectory, whatever that is.


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## bullethead (Oct 30, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I would also note that the atheists in this forum seemed focused on disproving the christian faith and its book the bible. Do you spend any time considering and or rejecting the ideas of other faiths or just the one? Do any other ideas seem more credible to you?


There seems to be a lack of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc in the AAA that want to chat.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

"it is because God is the ultimate moral authority that there is a hot spot. He can't dwell with any moral deficit, and we all have them." NE GA pappy

But who are humans to say that "god can't dwell with any moral deficit"? Who died and left us boss? IMHO to say that "god is the ultimate moral authority" is a cop out to make excuses for what is behavior that we all know HUMANS SHOULDN'T DO. It's like god is pulling the "do as I say, not as I do" thing. If you (god) are the ultimate moral authority, then doesn't it stand to reason that your morals should be HIGHER than that of the humans you created?  God's morality should be something we humans are inspired to emulate not make excuses for.  The whole relationship seems to be trying to appease the bully so maybe he won't bully you. So far nobody has been able to convince me otherwise.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> For myself "the hot place" is EXTREMELY important because - as I stated many times - it's my main beef with Christianity. They can talk about love, mercy, fairness, redemption, yada yada yada but if eternal torture is even on the table - if it's even in your toolbox - god or not, you are morally bankrupt and worse than any "evil" you allegedly oppose. Just my opinion of course.


Not arguing with you here just wanting to get your opinion -
If a Christian lives a moral life in every other way, does the fact that Christianity includes a he11 concept cancel that out?
We (nonbelievers) always make the point that just because we dont believe in God its ridiculous to be deemed immoral for that reason alone.....


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## WaltL1 (Oct 30, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I would also note that the atheists in this forum seemed focused on disproving the christian faith and its book the bible. Do you spend any time considering and or rejecting the ideas of other faiths or just the one? Do any other ideas seem more credible to you?


Since Atheism doesnt specify lack of belief in any particular (G)god, I would imagine the argument would be/should be the same for ANY faith claiming a god.
And I would echo Bullet's point - Christians are the only ones here so the Christian faith is what gets the focus.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There seems to be a lack of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc in the AAA that want to chat.


 My wife's nephew is a Buddhist. My wife's mother (my mother-in-law just to be clear) used to say that he's "going to ****" because he's the wrong religion. Recently - about ten months ago - my mother-in-law committed suicide (I think that's like a major, ****-worthy sin to some versions of Christianity) because since her husband died a few months before her suicide she was distraught/depressed and wanted to be with her husband (and Jesus of course) in heaven. Being "the right religion" didn't seem to help her out too much, but maybe she was an anomaly or something.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 30, 2022)

bullethead said:


> There seems to be a lack of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims etc in the AAA that want to chat.


Thats a fair point i guess. Just curious was all


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Not arguing with you here just wanting to get your opinion -
> If a Christian lives a moral life in every other way, does the fact that Christianity includes a he11 concept cancel that out?
> We (nonbelievers) always make the point that just because we dont believe in God its ridiculous to be deemed immoral for that reason alone.....



This I totally agree with, many moral people outside the church.

To believers this is a very sad situation.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Not at all pointless to the species that searches for a point. And we humans can define and find the points among ourselves. The point is what we say the point is, whether on an individual or collective level. It's all abstraction & imagination anyway as far as I can tell. The "universe" is on its own trajectory, whatever that is.


True we can say the point is whatever we say it is, but that does not make it a correct observation. The point of all this exists outside of what we would label it. It is because it is. As for the scientific, the claim is we are here as a product of evolution, and the point is survival of the species. If that is the point then it seems we are doomed to fail, as claimed by science at this moment.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Not arguing with you here just wanting to get your opinion -
> If a Christian lives a moral life in every other way, does the fact that Christianity includes a he11 concept cancel that out?
> We (nonbelievers) always make the point that just because we dont believe in God its ridiculous to be deemed immoral for that reason alone.....


Christianity having the hot place is no reflection on the believers - they didn't make the rules. Maybe they don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and so they can live with (or ignore or push to their subconscious) their loving, caring god eternally torturing non-believers. 
Maybe some take the "no hot place, just non-existence" route for non-believers. Sorry but that's too much cognitive dissonance for my fragile brain to handle.  Maybe my standards are unreasonably high! I totally understand that humans are flawed, but I expect god to find other ways to handle his business besides acting like a cruel, vengeful Mafia boss.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 30, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> This I totally agree with this, many moral people outside the church.
> 
> To believers this is a very sad situation.


Seems unlikely though doesnt it? That a moral man would be cast aside by god for that one small mistake. I know what the book says, but i say my view is that would not be the case.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> This I totally agree with this, many moral people outside the church.
> 
> To believers this is a very sad situation.


 Why be sad? God knows best, right? He is the ultimate moral authority so if he acts in a way humans would consider immoral, I'm sure he has a good reason since he works in mysterious ways and whatnot.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Christianity having the hot place is no reflection on the believers - they didn't make the rules. Maybe they don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and so they can live with (or ignore or push to their subconscious) their loving, caring god eternally torturing non-believers.
> Maybe some take the "no hot place, just non-existence" route for non-believers. Sorry but that's too much cognitive dissonance for my fragile brain to handle.  Maybe my standards are unreasonably high! I totally understand that humans are flawed, but I expect god to find other ways to handle his business besides acting like a cruel, vengeful Mafia boss.


I feel like yall might get a bit further with folks if ya didnt word the counter point so harshly. Just sayin....


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> Seems unlikely though doesnt it? That a moral man would be cast aside by god for that one small mistake. I know what the book says, but i say my view is that would not be the case.


That's why god makes the big money! We can't understand his incredibly complicated mind, apparently. But I hear you! I can't imagine having a "to do" list that looks like this: 

KILL EVERYONE BUT A BOATFUL IN A WORLDWIDE FLOOD
SACRIFICE MYSELF TO MYSELF
ETERNALLY TORTURE EVERYONE WHO WON'T WORSHIP ME


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I feel like yall might get a bit further with folks if ya didnt word the counter point so harshly. Just sayin....


----------



## brutally honest (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> KILL EVERYONE BUT A BOATFUL IN A WORLDWIDE FLOOD



Noah’s ark and the flood, symbolically explained by Steven Spielberg:


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## brutally honest (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> KILL EVERYONE BUT A BOATFUL IN A WORLDWIDE FLOOD
> SACRIFICE MYSELF TO MYSELF
> ETERNALLY TORTURE EVERYONE WHO WON'T WORSHIP ME



Generous soul that I am, I will give you a C minus in Vacation Bible School.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 30, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Christianity having the hot place is no reflection on the believers - they didn't make the rules. Maybe they don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and so they can live with (or ignore or push to their subconscious) their loving, caring god eternally torturing non-believers.
> Maybe some take the "no hot place, just non-existence" route for non-believers. Sorry but that's too much cognitive dissonance for my fragile brain to handle.  Maybe my standards are unreasonably high! I totally understand that humans are flawed, but I expect god to find other ways to handle his business besides acting like a cruel, vengeful Mafia boss.





> Maybe they don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, and so they can live with (or ignore or push to their subconscious) their loving, caring god eternally torturing non-believers.


That ^ eventually became me for a number of years. Not just about the he11 thing but a number of other issues too.
Finally couldnt deal with it anymore and had to just walk away.
Being an AA is far less stressful


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> That ^ eventually became me for a number of years. Not just about the he11 thing but a number of other issues too.
> Finally couldnt deal with it anymore and had to just walk away.
> Being an AA is far less stressful



I will summarize the issues that get to me as such:
why would a creator give humans the most advanced brains on the planet,
then punish us for using our brains to make the most logical decisions based on the evidence revealed to - and comprehended - by us?


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 30, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Generous soul that I am, I will give you a C minus in Vacation Bible School.


 It beats the D+ I got in algebra 1 - the second time I took the class that is.  Abstract complicated thinking is my Kryptonite!


----------



## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2022)

Having just now read the previous 6 hrs. of posts, I am convinced the I have no idea what any of the posters mean by the word "moral".


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 31, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Having just now read the previous 6 hrs. of posts, I am convinced the I have no idea what any of the posters mean by the word "moral".


You would probably have to ask each individual person what they consider moral or not to be.
What does "moral" mean to you?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I will summarize the issues that get to me as such:
> why would a creator give humans the most advanced brains on the planet,
> then punish us for using our brains to make the most logical decisions based on the evidence revealed to - and comprehended - by us?


Doesnt make any sense does it?
For me, its why I leave open the POSSIBILITY that God may exist, I just dont believe squat about what man says about that God. Which includes that man says he does exist.


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## atlashunter (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> The why are we here? Question seems even more interesting when held up to the current scientific description of time and where we are at in that time. I watched a doc here recently that called this time the age of stars, and that this was the period of light and life in the universe. That after this time when the last star burns out the universe would sit in darkness void of life. This next period is said to be many many many times longer than this current age of stars. In fact the claim was this age of stars it hardly a blip compared to the time of darkness. Seems pretty darn pointless when you paint it like that.



Maybe it is in that context. So what? We don’t operate in the context of how much meaning our life has in relation to trillions of years.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Maybe it is in that context. So what? We don’t operate in the context of how much meaning our life has in relation to trillions of years.


But humanity and evolution does.


----------



## atlashunter (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> But humanity and evolution does.


Life on this planet is just a tiny blip on the timeline of the universe and our species is just a tiny blip on the timeline of life on this planet. It just doesn't hold much relevance to the span of a human lifetime. In a century or two for most of us the only memory that we were ever here will be a name on a genealogy chart and maybe a headstone with our name on it. A thousand years from now most likely there will be no trace left that we existed. Of what meaning or significance is that individual who lived and died 50,000 years ago? None for us here 50,000 years later. We can find joy and meaning in life in the short time we are here. Eventually we will all pass and any meaning along with us. It's not a problem if we don't bestow on ourselves an over inflated sense of importance in the universe to begin with.


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## 660griz (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Eventually we will all pass and any meaning along with us. It's not a problem if we don't bestow on ourselves an over inflated sense of importance in the universe to begin with.


Amen!


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I was thinking the same thing.  I don't know of a preacher that expounds on the hot place in every message, or would even mention it in every message.  I do know that my pastor didn't mention it in this mornings message, and it was just a passing sentence in the Bible study on Wednesday as we are studying The Revelation.
> 
> I wondered just how much hades was taught, and suppose that it may have just been a sticking point with some and it stands out in their memories.  I very seldom give it a second thought, and never fear it because I know that I am redeemed and don't have to worry about my destination.  If that weren't the case, perhaps when I thought of eternity, the hot spot might weigh a bit more on my mind.



I first heard of He11 in Methodist Sunday school.  I guess I was probably 6 or so.  As I recall, I asked "Do even your eyeballs burn forever?".


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Life on this planet is just a tiny blip on the timeline of the universe and our species is just a tiny blip on the timeline of life on this planet. It just doesn't hold much relevance to the span of a human lifetime. In a century or two for most of us the only memory that we were ever here will be a name on a genealogy chart and maybe a headstone with our name on it. A thousand years from now most likely there will be no trace left that we existed. Of what meaning or significance is that individual who lived and died 50,000 years ago? None for us here 50,000 years later. We can find joy and meaning in life in the short time we are here. Eventually we will all pass and any meaning along with us. It's not a problem if we don't bestow on ourselves an over inflated sense of importance in the universe to begin with.


And yet here we sit using words invented long ago to debate a topic as old as time. It does matter what you do with your time and whether or not that has lasting impact is for the future to decide. To say that we are just a tiny blip in the scale of time and space might in fact be true, but to me makes our existence even more bizzare and out of place.


----------



## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> You would probably have to ask each individual person what they consider moral or not to be.
> What does "moral" mean to you?


Would that not require that, to be useful, the word "moral" have 6+ billion definitions?  I know that is hyperbolic to the point of being down-right silly; but it also leads to my response to your question: "does it matter?".  To be useful I would have to throw away the word "moral" and replace it with the definition, and the same for every other word I use.  OH NO!!, the definitions are words.


----------



## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Doesnt make any sense does it?
> For me, its why I leave open the POSSIBILITY that God may exist, I just dont believe squat about what man says about that God. Which includes that man says he does exist.





Israel said:


> A very interesting place to occupy Walt, if not for absurdity's at least for conversation's sake. But since you know I make myself no enemy of the absurd (I trust you do), can you squeeze over and see if it can hold two occupants?


Don't want to crowd in where I might not be welcome, but if there's a spot available ...


----------



## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Having just now read the previous 6 hrs. of posts, I am convinced the I have no idea what any of the posters mean by the word "moral".


That is a valid concern! Here's my take: according to Christianity 101 god is the only absolute moral authority. No matter how "moral" people seem to be according to our opinions, we humans do not have the right nor the ability to decide what behavior is moral and what is immoral. And within that framework it can get complicated because:
No matter what god does, it's moral by default because god defines and displays perfect morality even it_ seems _immoral at the time. Causing plagues, turning people into salt, smiting them in various & creative ways, drowning people, eternal torture, you name it - it's all good but only if god does it OR (this is very important) god orders you to do it. 

So bottom line it's not w_hat behavior _is moral versus immoral it's _who is_ _doing the behavior _that solidifies morality. 

Taking god/religion off the table completely, humans as a species developed morality over thousands of years based on observation of human behavior in general, societal & cultural decisions, common sense, trial & error, and many more factors. Morality is ever shifting & evolving just as societies shift & evolve and humane brain itself evolves.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Maybe it is in that context. So what? We don’t operate in the context of how much meaning our life has in relation to trillions of years.


And IMHO we shouldn't. Our meaning of life should matter to ourselves and our circle of family & friends.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> I first heard of He11 in Methodist Sunday school.  I guess I was probably 6 or so.  As I recall, I asked "Do even your eyeballs burn forever?".


I think it would be awesome if you asked that out loud!


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> And yet here we sit using words invented long ago to debate a topic as old as time. It does matter what you do with your time and whether or not that has lasting impact is for the future to decide. To say that we are just a tiny blip in the scale of time and space might in fact be true, but to me makes our existence even more bizzare and out of place.


Pondering subjects like this is a burden only our species bears. Okay on this planet anyway. I think somewhere out in the vastness of time & space other species think about it too.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think it would be awesome if you asked that out loud!



I recall I did and the answer stuck with me.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> That is a valid concern! Here's my take: according to Christianity 101 god is the only absolute moral authority. No matter how "moral" people seem to be according to our opinions, we humans do not have the right nor the ability to decide what behavior is moral and what is immoral. And within that framework it can get complicated because:
> No matter what god does, it's moral by default because god defines and displays perfect morality even it_ seems _immoral at the time. Causing plagues, turning people into salt, smiting them in various & creative ways, drowning people, eternal torture, you name it - it's all good but only if god does it OR (this is very important) god orders you to do it.
> 
> So bottom line it's not w_hat behavior _is moral versus immoral it's _who is_ _doing the behavior _that solidifies morality.
> ...


I still don't have any idea what you mean by "moral"; you seem to be touching on Hegelism (the Absolute).  In an effort to avoid an extended discussion, which I do not desire, because we would be walking a well worn path, I assume that you would be in some sort of agreement with "open theism" (God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent nor_ a se_) and is therefore not God  — but that God is Superman.  Which is not Christianity 101, but is a Strawman.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> I still don't have any idea what you mean by "moral"; you seem to be touching on Hegelism (the Absolute).  In an effort to avoid an extended discussion, which I do not desire, because we would be walking a well worn path, I assume that you would be in some sort of agreement with "open theism" (God is neither omniscient nor omnipotent nor_ a se_) and is therefore not God  — but that God is Superman.  Which is not Christianity 101, but is a Strawman.



I'm not trying make a strawman, I'm just offering my take on god being the absolute moral authority that begins in the Garden of Eden in Genesis. Humans literally had no concept of right or wrong until they messed it up. 
Maybe not all but many Christians think that humans don't really know if something is moral or not and thus we have to get our morality from the bible, full stop.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2022)

I'm not trying make a strawman, I'm just offering my take on god being the absolute moral authority that begins in the Garden of Eden in Genesis. Humans literally had no concept of right or wrong until they messed it up.
Maybe not all but many Christians think that humans don't really know if something is moral or not and thus we have to get our morality from the bible, full stop.


> Humans literally had no concept of right or wrong


Maybe, and I believe, that's because we are not omniscient, omnipotent, or _a se; IOW, it seems obvious to me that it is a Strawman when God is presented as a difference of species, genus, family, order, etc . and not as a difference of Domain.  _


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## atlashunter (Oct 31, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I'm not trying make a strawman, I'm just offering my take on god being the absolute moral authority that begins in the Garden of Eden in Genesis. Humans literally had no concept of right or wrong until they messed it up.
> Maybe not all but many Christians think that humans don't really know if something is moral or not and thus we have to get our morality from the bible, full stop.


Interesting that free will doctrine holds the entire point of this mortal exercise is to allow us to choose between good and evil yet it starts out with the participants being explicitly denied the knowledge of good and evil. It’s like putting a loaded gun before a child with no concept of it, telling them not to touch it, then walking away knowing full well what they will do and coming back after the fact surprised and angry to punish them. Genesis doesn’t read like a god that was omniscient and as far as I’m aware doesn’t make the claim. Seems that attribute was a later addition.


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## ambush80 (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Interesting that free will doctrine holds the entire point of this mortal exercise is to allow us to choose between good and evil yet it starts out with the participants being explicitly denied the knowledge of good and evil. It’s like putting a loaded gun before a child with no concept of it, telling them not to touch it, then walking away knowing full well what they will do and coming back after the fact surprised and angry to punish them. Genesis doesn’t read like a god that was omniscient and as far as I’m aware doesn’t make the claim. Seems that attribute was a later addition.



Approach this from the notion that God is sovereign in all matters including one's salvation.  He knows which children will misuse the loaded gun and which won't.  Indeed, "misuse" is a moot term, as every use of the gun is righteous and holy.  That position is impenetrable to criticism. It's either true or it isn't and either way you are susceptible to the outcome.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 31, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> I would also note that the atheists in this forum seemed focused on disproving the christian faith and its book the bible. Do you spend any time considering and or rejecting the ideas of other faiths or just the one? Do any other ideas seem more credible to you?


Again, not an athiest, but I don't have much use for any of the major organized religions that seem to exist mainly to control folks. I just never really felt drawn to a Hebrew/Middle Eastern religion to begin with. Those aren't my people. If I was going to seriously follow a religion, it would probably be the one of my Celtic ancestors. Which jives quite well with the one practiced by my Tuscarora great-great-great-great granny.


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## livinoutdoors (Oct 31, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Again, not an athiest, but I don't have much use for any of the major organized religions that seem to exist mainly to control folks. I just never really felt drawn to a Hebrew/Middle Eastern religion to begin with. Those aren't my people. If I was going to seriously follow a religion, it would probably be the one of my Celtic ancestors. Which jives quite well with the one practiced by my Tuscarora great-great-great-great granny.


Agreed


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## hummerpoo (Oct 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Approach this from the notion that God is sovereign in all matters including one's salvation.  He knows which children will misuse the loaded gun and which won't.  Indeed, "misuse" is a moot term, as every use of the gun is righteous and holy.  That position is impenetrable to criticism. It's either true or it isn't and either way you are susceptible to the outcome.


While I substantially agree with you, I would suggest one possible substitution (which means I recognize that my thought is arguable).
I think that "as every use of the gun is righteous and holy" might be better stated "as every use of the gun is good, as it fulfills God's purpose and glorifies His name".  I'm sure that several major theologians agree with me, but that doesn't seal the deal.


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Interesting that free will doctrine holds the entire point of this mortal exercise is to allow us to choose between good and evil yet it starts out with the participants being explicitly denied the knowledge of good and evil. It’s like putting a loaded gun before a child with no concept of it, telling them not to touch it, then walking away knowing full well what they will do and coming back after the fact surprised and angry to punish them. Genesis doesn’t read like a god that was omniscient and as far as I’m aware doesn’t make the claim. Seems that attribute was a later addition.


Good point! In the Old Testament god does seem to get caught by surprise now and then. And he does express regret too, which would only occur if you made a mistake or underestimated someone or something. As for being omnipotent god says the Israelites losing a battle (that god was assisting with) wasn't his fault because nobody can defeat chariots of iron!  
That said the official explanation by bible experts is god _can _defeat chariots of iron, he just didn't want to - to teach the Israelites a lesson or something.


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## chriswkbrd (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> So if you believe in nothing, and think its all random, no creator, no purpose, no next life after death or whatever, then why do you spend so much time debating it?


I don't debate it ("you can't fix stupid"), I just sit back smirk at the hypocrisy of all the religious people out there!


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## Danuwoa (Dec 16, 2022)

chriswkbrd said:


> I don't debate it ("you can't fix stupid"), I just sit back smirk at the hypocrisy of all the religious people out there!


 Most unintentionally hilarious post I’ve read in a while.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Most unintentionally hilarious post I’ve read in a while.


Your kinder than me. I sit back and pity the arrogance of those smarter than the creator of the universe.


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## Danuwoa (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Your kinder than me. I sit back and pity the arrogance of those smarter than the creator of the universe.


Don’t give me too much credit.
 It’s not kindness.  I have nothing but mockery for people who honestly believe they’re better than other people and in this case basically think they’re God.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 16, 2022)

chriswkbrd said:


> I don't debate it ("you can't fix stupid"), I just sit back smirk at the hypocrisy of all the religious people out there!


How kind of you.


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## Danuwoa (Dec 16, 2022)

livinoutdoors said:


> How kind of you.


And smart.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 16, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Don’t give me too much credit.
> It’s not kindness.  I have nothing but mockery for people who honestly believe they’re better than other people and in this case basically think they’re God.


I make no pretense to fully grasping God. But I see evidence of his presence and absence about me. More importantly I feel his presence.


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## Danuwoa (Dec 16, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I make no pretense to fully grasping God. But I see evidence of his presence and absence about me. More importantly I feel his presence.


Well I just know what has happened to me and what my life was like and what I was like when I decided I thought the whole thing was likely “man made” and acted accordingly.  I’ll just say my life did not change for the better and I didn’t become a better person by any metric.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 16, 2022)

Show me a human and I'll show you a hypocrite. There's plenty of hypocrisy to go around for both the religious and non religious.


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## Danuwoa (Dec 16, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> Show me a human and I'll show you a hypocrite. There's plenty of hypocrisy to go around for both the religious and non religious.


Facts.


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## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I make no pretense to fully grasping God. But I see evidence of his presence and absence about me. More importantly I feel his presence.



Lived Experience.


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## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Well I just know what has happened to me and what my life was like and what I was like when I decided I thought the whole thing was likely “man made” and acted accordingly.  I’ll just say my life did not change for the better and I didn’t become a better person by any metric.




Someone else's Lived Experience may have led them to a different outcome and therefore a different conclusion.  I like the argument of utility.  I take issue when people try to apply their experience to everybody.


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## Danuwoa (Dec 17, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Someone else's Lived Experience may have led them to a different outcome and therefore a conclusion.


I don’t care.


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## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> I don’t care.



Why would you, unless it were required of you?


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## Danuwoa (Dec 17, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Why would you, unless it were required of you?


The “well bit everybody has had your life experiences” thing is tedious to me.  I’m not taking time out of my day to concede that.  I mean do I also have to acknowledge that when the sun goes down it’ll be dark?  Zzzzzzzzzz.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> The “well bit everybody has had your life experiences” thing is tedious to me.  I’m not taking time out of my day to concede that.  I mean do I also have to acknowledge that when the sun goes down it’ll be dark?  Zzzzzzzzzz.



I'll concede that if everyone were adherents to the same dogma that there might be less strife.  Lets disregard the fact that even within the same dogma there will be disagreements on interpretation.


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## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> The “well bit everybody has had your life experiences” thing is tedious to me.  I’m not taking time out of my day to concede that.  I mean do I also have to acknowledge that when the sun goes down it’ll be dark?  Zzzzzzzzzz.




This reminds me of the phrase "I'm not going to invest my emotional labor to explain it to you.  It's not my job".


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## Danuwoa (Dec 17, 2022)

Take it however you want.  Atheists get a lot more spun up about what Christians do than the other way around.  Here anyway.


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## ambush80 (Dec 17, 2022)

Danuwoa said:


> Take it however you want.  Atheists get a lot more spun up about what Christians do than the other way around.  Here anyway.



Kind of goes with the name of this sub forum.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 17, 2022)

Volumes have been  written on Christians and Jews slaughtered and persecuted through out history. I struggle to remember a historical moment centered upon rounding up aethiest to toss them in the oven or to the lions for entertainment.

The Swaggart type makes the news and barbershop gossip. The majority of christians just trying to be the best model of him or herself are overlooked. It’s a weak argument repeatedly heard.


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## bullethead (Dec 17, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Volumes have been  written on Christians and Jews slaughtered and persecuted through out history. I struggle to remember a historical moment centered upon rounding up aethiest to toss them in the oven or to the lions for entertainment.
> 
> The Swaggart type makes the news and barbershop gossip. The majority of christians just trying to be the best model of him or herself are overlooked. It’s a weak argument repeatedly heard.


Do you have any recollection of history where the Christians were doing the slaughtering and persecuting?
Every culture, race, creed, religion gets a turn at being picked on and doing the picking.


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## bullethead (Dec 17, 2022)

Here is some historical information for future reference









						The Catholic Church's Persecution of Atheists
					

Outright atheism had been known in ancient Greece. Some of the best known philosophers in the ancient world had been atheists.




					churchandstate.org.uk


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## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Here is some historical information for future reference
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cant help but chuckle at this -


> Atheists have been denied not only legal redress themselves but also the right to sit on juries. The underlying idea is that people cannot be trusted unless their morality is conditioned by a fear of God.


Christianity (note I did not say "God") burning and beheading folks because their morality wasnt conditioned by "God" 
Only a man made religion can come up with that kind of crap.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> I make no pretense to fully grasping God. But I see evidence of his presence and absence about me. More importantly I feel his presence.


Its a shame belief couldnt just be left at that ^.


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## NCHillbilly (Dec 17, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Volumes have been  written on Christians and Jews slaughtered and persecuted through out history. I struggle to remember a historical moment centered upon rounding up aethiest to toss them in the oven or to the lions for entertainment.
> 
> The Swaggart type makes the news and barbershop gossip. The majority of christians just trying to be the best model of him or herself are overlooked. It’s a weak argument repeatedly heard.


You must of not heard of most of Medieval Europe, the Spanish Inquisition, or the Puritan colonies right here in America, where you would be executed horribly for not following the tenents of the church.


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## livinoutdoors (Dec 17, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Volumes have been  written on Christians and Jews slaughtered and persecuted through out history. I struggle to remember a historical moment centered upon rounding up aethiest to toss them in the oven or to the lions for entertainment.
> 
> The Swaggart type makes the news and barbershop gossip. The majority of christians just trying to be the best model of him or herself are overlooked. It’s a weak argument repeatedly heard.


Cmon man! You need to read more then.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 17, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I cant help but chuckle at this -
> 
> Christianity (note I did not say "God") burning and beheading folks because their morality wasnt conditioned by "God"
> Only a man made religion can come up with that kind of crap.


Good point, and here is my take on your point - if I may:
why is it that many societies that don't follow the Christian god have the same general "morality" and behavior as America, a strongly "Christian" nation? Why do many individuals who follow a different religion - or no religion at all - live a highly "moral" life and are highly representative of the very best attributes of being human? It seems to me that people in general do not get their morals - their sense of right versus wrong - from any god.


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## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good point, and here is my take on your point - if I may:
> why is it that many societies that don't follow the Christian god have the same general "morality" and behavior as America, a strongly "Christian" nation? Why do many individuals who follow a different religion - or no religion at all - live a highly "moral" life and are highly representative of the very best attributes of being human? It seems to me that people in general do not get their morals - their sense of right versus wrong - from any god.


Now dont go injecting reality into the situation 
One of the many reasons I leave open the possibility of "God"/a god/higher something, but absolutely reject organized religion and its claims/stories.


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## Spotlite (Dec 18, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Good point, and here is my take on your point - if I may:
> why is it that many societies that don't follow the Christian god have the same general "morality" and behavior as America, a strongly "Christian" nation? Why do many individuals who follow a different religion - or no religion at all - live a highly "moral" life and are highly representative of the very best attributes of being human? It seems to me that people in general do not get their morals - their sense of right versus wrong - from any god.


I know many Christians say you have to have God to have morals, and I agree with non believers when they say you don’t have to be Christian to have morals. If God’s law was written in man’s hearts so they’re without excuse………then morals could come from God regardless if you’re Christian or not.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I know many Christians say you have to have God to have morals, and I agree with non believers when they say you don’t have to be Christian to have morals. If God’s law was written in man’s hearts so they’re without excuse………then morals could come from God regardless if you’re Christian or not.


Good point! But it makes me wonder - there are plenty of different religions so if "god's law" is written on everyone's heart, then there are many gods that think the same, or one god who is just interpreted differently by different cultures!


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