# Jehovah's Witness' beliefs



## Jody Hawk (Oct 27, 2006)

First, I ain't attacking anyones beliefs, just curious as to why they believe that way. We had a young lady come and accept Christ and join our church during the invitation the other night. After that she told our congregation that she left the Jehovah's Witnesses and now her parents have nothing to do with her. I was talking to a guy that I work (baptist) with about this, his Mama is Jehovah's Witness. He said that the only reason his Mama has anything to do with him is because he never was a Jehovah's Witness. He said if you join their church and then leave for another denomination, then they have nothing else to do with you.


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## leroy (Oct 27, 2006)

We have a lady in our Church who was raised JW, she has a wonderful testimony.


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## Randy (Oct 27, 2006)

I don't know why they belive as they do and I certainly don't believe as they do but..............
If more Christians were as well versed in the Bible as the average JW and as convicted in their faith as JW, nothing could stop the Christian movement.


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## Arrowslinger (Oct 27, 2006)

It's to bad those verses they are "Well Versed in" have been completely adulterated and bent to meet the meaning they want. Other than that I usually find them to be quite pleasent people.


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## FESTUSHAGGIN (Oct 27, 2006)

Arrowslinger said:


> It's to bad those verses they are "Well Versed in" have been completely adulterated and bent to meet the meaning they want. QUOTE]
> 
> Amen to that.


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## Spotlite (Oct 27, 2006)

I worked with one, very dedicated but very strange, this guy went to his sisters funeral, but stood outside due to the fact that it was in another Church facility other than their "Kingdom Hall". I know times when we had service calls, he refused to go in other Churchs for what he was getting paid for, I asked once and he basically told me nothing, never did know what the deal was. I upfront told him one day when he was doggin me about giving the OK to take extra breaks when it is hot outside. He would say I was wrong, "got to give an honest days work for a honest days pay". I said OK, "next time we go to a church for a call, are you going to clock out?" Never heard nothing else about it.


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## Dixie Dawg (Oct 27, 2006)

Arrowslinger said:


> It's to bad those verses they are "Well Versed in" have been completely adulterated and bent to meet the meaning they want.


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## Flash (Oct 27, 2006)

It is my understanding one belief they hold is that Jesus returned to earth back in the early 1900's but only a few folks saw him. Also don't believe in a bad place in the after life.


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## Jody Hawk (Oct 28, 2006)

I've talked to them before (worked with one and discussions with them when they knock on my door) and this is what I gather from them. They don't believe in he!!, the Trinity or the rapture.


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## leroy (Oct 28, 2006)

they dont believe in holidays including birthdays. dont believe in blood transfusions, believe there are a set number of people going to heaven.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Oct 28, 2006)

A friend of mine has one working for him and he doesn't believe in christmas but is mighty glad to take his present home at the christmas dinner.When they come here I send em down the road.


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## Tn_Extreme (Oct 28, 2006)

I had some JW's come to the house the other night. They asked if they could come in and talk. I said sure. They come in and just sat there. I asked them what they wanted to talk about and they said they didnt know,.they had never got that far before. LOL!   

That is  joke by the way.

We have been lucky to see a few saved here as of late.  VEry good people, just deceived.


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## Tim L (Oct 28, 2006)

leroy said:


> they dont believe in holidays including birthdays. dont believe in blood transfusions, believe there are a set number of people going to heaven.



What do they believe in?? I have never given one the chance to talk when they knock on the door and I don't like the way they (at least around here) parade their little children around in front of them like buffers....I have know people that said that JW's they knew were some of the best people in the world and some that said they were as sorry as crap (maybe like people in general, some good some bad).....But seriously, WHAT DO they believe?


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## Flash (Oct 28, 2006)

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> When they come here I send em down the road.



 I thought all roads went down from the top of them hills.  

 Rouster as I understand they believe in working their way to the good place (top 144,000 get in). The rest of the "good ones" stay on a new earth called paradise. If you are bad instead of going to the BAD place you simply cease to exist.     Birthdays, holidays etc are not recognized since all days are equal. 
  You won't find a practicing JW in the military cause saluting the flag would be a form of idolatary (sp?)


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## ebcarp (Oct 29, 2006)

The past two weekends we've had some come to our door.  They're persistent.  They left a flyer both times.  If you want to find out what they believe and why, visit www.watchtower.org and they outline their beliefs and the corresponding Bible verses they base it on.


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## Arrowslinger (Oct 29, 2006)

I have a JW that works for me so I researched their beliefs.
1. They don't believe Jesus was the son of God or the         third  person in the Trinity.
2. They don't believe in the trinity.
3. That earth is actually heaven and 144,000 chosen people will dwell in paradise on earth.
4. They say Jesus was crucified on a stake not a cross.
5. They also believe Jesus was the Angel Michael.
6. They have made many prophecies that never came true. Now they refrain from making predictions.
7. They think the watchtower organization takes it's orders from God directly. 

The weird thing is after talking to this man and hearing his beliefs I opened his bible to show him that Jesus was divine every passage that bible was conspiciously changed to say the opposite. When asked about this He says that their translation is the best most accurate. Also the religion was founded by a disgruntled pastor in or around the 1890's. The religion is ruled by the watch tower organization and all the faithful of this religion take all orders and guidance through the watch tower. A very Misguided bunch I don't even bother talking religion with them any more because their bible has been adulterated and they will quote anything that leads to the point they want to make.


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## Arrowslinger (Oct 29, 2006)

ebcarp,

I looked at that web site and this is a direct quote from their web site. These guys play with a stacked deck.

"Unless otherwise indicated, Bible quotations are from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures."


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## ebcarp (Oct 29, 2006)

A good link is available which outlines pretty well the basis of the New World Translation.  It is http://www.spiritwatch.org/jwnwt.htm


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## DartonHunter101 (Oct 31, 2006)

*Guys! Guys! Guys!*

Jody, or really anyone, if you read all the posts above, you see a lot of different ideas about what JW's believe. It just goes to show you the best source for info is straight from the horse's mouth! If you want to know what a Baptist believes , don't ask a Catholic.
I am a JW and can tell you a lot of the info here is wrong, some is right, and some is partially right. 
I grew up a Baptist. Became a baptized Jehovah's Witness at 24. I am a normal country boy. Hunted and fished all my life. I got a college degree from West Georgia. Last year I had a brain surgery that went bad and now find myself disabled.I am a little slow as a result.
One of the best pieces of information from above about JW's, and really all religons, is that we are like any other group: there are some really great people, some average people, and probably some that are just not that good of folks. I find good and bad people in ALL religons.
What is different is the doctorines , and normally our bible knowledge, like Randy said. We learn a lot about the bible because of the way our meetings are held, not because we are all that smart. It is sorta like going to school. Normally we take things by subject and study it.  5 weeks ago we studied the book of Job, and stayed on it for 3 weeks, then went to marriage for the last two weeks and studied the bible's view on it.
Any questions you have I will try to answer, and do it respectfully, and hope everyone here can be respectful . And if your opinion is different; I don't take it personal, after all God, Jehovah, does the judging. However I understand some of their feelings, because I had them also. I never talked to any JW at the door. Would run them off if I did answer the door.


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## leroy (Nov 1, 2006)

what are JW beliefs darton and how do they differ from say Baptists


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 1, 2006)

*Holidays*



leroy said:


> what are JW beliefs darton and how do they differ from say Baptists[/QUOTE
> 
> As you know, and most people know, we don't celebrate holidays, or birthdays.
> 
> ...


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## 60Grit (Nov 1, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> leroy said:
> 
> 
> > what are JW beliefs darton and how do they differ from say Baptists[/QUOTE
> ...


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 1, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> DartonHunter101 said:
> 
> 
> > True dat', true dat'.  He is telling the truth about the origins of how the competition for christians evolved to counter pagan celebrations.
> ...


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## toddboucher (Nov 1, 2006)

here's a link from a john-lee ministry they are a witnessing ministry out of Atlanta. John has a mind for this but in short they most believe Jesus resurrection never happened in the flesh. Ok here's the link 
www.john-lee-ministries.org/The_Watchtower_and_The_Trinity_Page.html
also check out his site for more great information to help us to be a better witness.
www.john-lee-ministries.org


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 1, 2006)

You know if you went to the priests in Jesus day and asked them what he was teaching., I don't think you would have gotten a straight,  reliable answer. After all the priests are the ones behind having Jesus killed. But everyone has to make up their own mind.


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## Hawkeye (Nov 1, 2006)

JW are also a cult.


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## Arrowslinger (Nov 2, 2006)

Darton,

With all respect and charity you are talking in circles just as you were trained. Your "Bible" is doctored up to fit your beliefs. Everything taught to JW's contain a shredd of truth with lots of lies. Yes Hawkeye it is a cult.

On the subject of holidays do you celebrate Mothers Day? it says in the Bible to Honor thy Mother and Father.


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## Spotlite (Nov 2, 2006)

It also says give honor where honor is due. 

I got verbally bashed by the JW that worked with for buying my kid a birthday present I told him some things I cant say here, but you know, he sure was fast to take all the stuff that vendors brought in like turkeys on Thanksgiving and a ham on Christmas, little $25 gift certificates. 

So I ask whats the difference in me giving my kid a birthday present and a vendor giving him a ham for Christmas Talk about making the scriptures fit


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## Flash (Nov 2, 2006)

Darton who is Jesus in your faith? 

 If a person is "bad" and totally rejects God, after death does that person go to H-ll, cease to exist or something else.   Thanks


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

Arrowslinger said:


> Darton,
> 
> With all respect and charity you are talking in circles just as you were trained. Your "Bible" is doctored up to fit your beliefs. Everything taught to JW's contain a shredd of truth with lots of lies. Yes Hawkeye it is a cult.
> 
> On the subject of holidays do you celebrate Mothers Day? it says in the Bible to Honor thy Mother and Father.




No charity wanted, but true respect would be nice. When you make accusations try to use supporting facts, otherwise it really reflects badly.
First you really don't know me, or how I was trained??
I recieved two college degrees, one in finance, another in accounting, in 2 1/2 years. I am a very studious person, or was until recently. I accept no man's word for my faith, but only the word of god. The bible encourages that at Acts 17-11. And I always point people to the facts and bible so they can make their own decision. Whatever someone chooses it is nothing personal to me, they just see things different.
AS far as the bible I personally have 13 different versions I use. If something is unclear I look up the Hebrew or Greek word and see how it was translation. I am not afraid to use any of these, because if they have been twisted during translation it will contradict itself. If you don't like the NEw World Translation, tell me which one is best to use and why you believe it is accurate and provide some history on the translation.
Cult- One of the more  prominent definitions is a sect that follows a man. There is no man I follow, but I strive to follow the teachings of Jesus. JW's have a body that oversees matters, and no one gets a salary, people die on the body from time to time and they get replaced. I am not sure who is even on the body now, because I don't follow a man.

AS far as the holidays are concerned, I gave you three examples that are really easy to research and see they have pagan roots. If you think it is ok to still participate in them there would be no need to discuss any others, we just disagree on that point.

Don't take someone's different views so personal. We all have the right to choose our belief, and in the end we stand accountable for our actions. If I am wrong, at least I looked at the facts and made a choice based on that. I wouldn't make that choice for any other person but me, it is to important.  I am not on this thread to force someone to change, but to give them accurate facts as to what JW's believe. What a  individual does with the facts is up to him/her.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> It also says give honor where honor is due.
> 
> I got verbally bashed by the JW that worked with for buying my kid a birthday present I told him some things I cant say here, but you know, he sure was fast to take all the stuff that vendors brought in like turkeys on Thanksgiving and a ham on Christmas, little $25 gift certificates.
> 
> So I ask whats the difference in me giving my kid a birthday present and a vendor giving him a ham for Christmas Talk about making the scriptures fit



Spotlite,

Everyone deserves to be treated with respect. If you got bashed unprovoked by a JW all I can say is he was wrong and please forgive. There are good and bad in all religons. It could also have just been a mistake, but it was still wrong. I have made plenty of them that I am not proud of and pray for forgiveness by the blood of Jesus Christ. And remember Judas was one of the orginal Apostles, he went bad.


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## Flash (Nov 2, 2006)

Flash said:


> Darton who is Jesus in your faith?
> 
> If a person is "bad" and totally rejects God, after death does that person go to H-ll, cease to exist or something else.   Thanks



 Bump


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

Flash said:


> Darton who is Jesus in your faith?
> 
> If a person is "bad" and totally rejects God, after death does that person go to H-ll, cease to exist or something else.   Thanks




Jesus is our only means of salvation.

If God, Jehovah, judged a person, at the very end, as you said ,he would cease to existis my belief based on the bible. He would not be tourtured forever and ever. That is contary to God's nature, and even the bible spells out the penalty for sin at Romans 6: v7 & v23 The word  is translated from Sheol and Hades, which are the orginal greek and hebrew words written.
The King James Version rendered sheol as “****,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hades is  rendered both “****” and “grave.

Most bibles are not consistent in the translation of these orginal words. I am not an expert on Hebrew or Greek, but i feel If it real meaning is  he!! it should be translated as  every time. Also history books show that enternal tourment teaching has some pagan roots. It is a lot more to it, but that is a very condensed answer. That is what I believe. Not saying that you should believe it, but just do your own research.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

Woodswalker said:


> This is the very point where i find myself quite askew with my Brethren's beliefs.
> 
> how does an all-powerful God find that someone should gain everlasting life based upon a mere 80 years or so of worshipful work down here on the earth.
> 
> ...



Woodswalker,
I never heard of it like that, God being a econimizer, but it is true. In all past recorded history god has always bent over backwards to give people salvation. If a loving parent had a bad child today and tourtured him for say , 20 years, we would lock him upand think he was awful. It just didn't make sense for me to think of a loving god tourting people forever and ever. Then when I looked at the facts and the orgins of the teaching I couldn't go along with it.


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## DCarter001 (Nov 2, 2006)

Darton,
You've got spunk.  I like your attitude.  I don't agree with your theology, but I like your ability to rather thoughtfully and tactfully state your beliefs.  Let's say I simply disagree, not on point but on principle.


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## Flash (Nov 2, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Jesus is our only means of salvation.



 Could you be more specific? Is he God, Man, an angel etc? 
  Thanks for your other reply.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

DCarter001 said:


> Darton,
> You've got spunk.  I like your attitude.  I don't agree with your theology, but I like your ability to rather thoughtfully and tactfully state your beliefs.  Let's say I simply disagree, not on point but on principle.



Thanks DCarter. I am really slow now, sorta shamed of it, since last Sept, but I am not ashamed of what I believe or why. Disagreement adds variety to the world, nothing wrong with that, as long as it stays somewhat civil. Religion disagreements sometimes gets way out of hand for some reason.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

Flash said:


> Could you be more specific? Is he God, Man, an angel etc?
> Thanks for your other reply.


Flash,
Well he is the Son of God. A spirit creature, and god and is in the heavens. 
Yes I do believe when the bible refers to Micheal the Archangel it is referenceing to Jesus. The word itself archangel means-chief angel,  at 1 Tim 4:16 it refers to Jesus in this capacity. There is more scriptures also that led me to my belief.


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## ebcarp (Nov 2, 2006)

Darton,
Do ya'll believe in a free will salvation plan or a plan which is based on the predestined will of God?  Also, is it possible for a JV to "lose their salvation" through misdeeds or other means?  Thanks.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

ebcarp said:


> Darton,
> Do ya'll believe in a free will salvation plan or a plan which is based on the predestined will of God?  Also, is it possible for a JV to "lose their salvation" through misdeeds or other means?  Thanks.



Ebcarp,

Free will totally. Yes people can lose out. We don't believe in once saved always saved. Look at Satan He had a high standing among the angels, but he chose to rebel and  eventually God will destory him. It is he who endures to the end that will be saved Matt 24:13 &  Heb 10:26-27


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## Arrowslinger (Nov 2, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> JW's have a body that oversees matters,


This Body is called the Watch Tower and basically tell the faithful JW's what to think.

In one breath you say Jesus is your source of salvation and you deny he is God! 
You won't celebrate his birth as did every angel in heaven did.
You deny the Trinity the divinity of Jesus , existance of the Holy Spirit. Yet you claim to be Christain.
Every passage in the bible speaking to these facts in your bible has been altered to say the opposite. The individuals who did this are not recognized experts in the field of ancient languages. 
Ask to see the names of these people and their credentials.
You say you use 13 diffrent Bibles I bet that makes it easy to pick and choose and come up with the meanings you want.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 2, 2006)

Arrowslinger,

I am not trying to convince you anything.Sounds like you are satisfied with your beliefs and I wish you the best. We are just going to have to agree that we disagree.

Take Care


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## Spotlite (Nov 3, 2006)

DCarter001 said:


> Darton,
> You've got spunk.  I like your attitude.  I don't agree with your theology, but I like your ability to rather thoughtfully and tactfully state your beliefs.  Let's say I simply disagree, not on point but on principle.



Yeah we got to give him credit for that. Alot of folks would have done  on us for these questions, but he has calmly answered them and responded in a mature manner. Again, dont agree with your theology, but you have shown great character


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## toddboucher (Nov 3, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Ebcarp,
> 
> Free will totally. Yes people can lose out. We don't believe in once saved always saved. Look at Satan He had a high standing among the angels, but he chose to rebel and  eventually God will destory him. It is he who endures to the end that will be saved Matt 24:13 &  Heb 10:26-27



Im sorry I believe as you call it once saved always saved, I call it eternal security but whats in a different name. I could go into the Blood Covenant but study that fact many good books. Now many misapply scriptures such as Matthew 24:13, Hebrews 10:26 to the church age of grace, when they doctrinally apply to the tribulation or the millenium. So thats that part but what else does the bible say. Were save not by works, Its a free gift, Nothing can seperate us from the Love of our father, were Sealed till the day of redemption and There is now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus.
To the backslider Paul wrote they will suffer loss (rewards, ext) but they themself shall be saved.
What if we latter believe not 2 timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful he cannot deny himself. 
So to lose your  salvation would make God a liar.

Now sin breaks our fellowship with God, till we repent but the covenant is still there. 

Now if you have more to add I'll admit when I wrong. But this might be one of these dogma issues we fight(in word) till the day Of the Lord. Then you'll see Im right.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 3, 2006)

Todd,

I might have the best of both worlds because I was baptized as a baptist first, and even though I don't believe in once saved always saved now, and I am a JW, I can't lose it  and still have it? Could I become a radical muslum and strap bombs to me and kill inoccent people and still not lose it? No way to lose it huh,that is a ticket to let my inherited sinful nature take over and just do what I want, wonder who would want us to believe that way?


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## Spotlite (Nov 3, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> even though I don't believe in once saved always saved now, and I am a JW, I can't lose it  and still have it? Could I become a radical muslum and strap bombs to me and kill inoccent people and still not lose it? No way to lose it huh,that is a ticket to let my inherited sinful nature take over and just do what I want, wonder who would want us to believe that way?



The typical response your going to get from those that believe in OSAS, is you were never "truly saved".


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## Randy (Nov 3, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I might have the best of both worlds because I was baptized as a baptist first, and even though I don't believe in once saved always saved now, and I am a JW, I can't lose it  and still have it?




Some Christians would just say you were never saved in the first place.  I am sure you felt you were?


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## Randy (Nov 3, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> The typical response your going to get from those that believe in OSAS, is you were never "truly saved".




We were typing at the same time!!!


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 3, 2006)

Randy said:


> Some Christians would just say you were never saved in the first place.  I am sure you felt you were?



I heard that before also. I do a common sense check for myself by examples in the bible. Could you say Adam and Eve wasn't truly saved. They were perfect and had ever lasting life (salvation), and lost it because of choices they made. Satan was immortal in the heavens and lost it due to his choices.
Salvation is a gift. I believe in free will. You can accept the gift and decide you no longer want it and give it back. If it was any other way we wouldn't have a choice, robots. God wants you to have salvation , just like with Adam and Eve, but he is not going to force it on you. Just where I stand on the issue, like I said I believe in free will and I respect everybody's right to make a choice in your beliefs.


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## Flash (Nov 3, 2006)

Darton, Thanks for your replies. Put me on the agree to disagree list.


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## PWalls (Nov 3, 2006)

Spotlite said:


> The typical response your going to get from those that believe in OSAS, is you were never "truly saved".



Yes, and that would be my response.


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## Randy (Nov 3, 2006)

PWalls said:


> Yes, and that would be my response.



And we agree to disagree.


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## Spotlite (Nov 3, 2006)

Randy said:


> We were typing at the same time!!!



You owe me a Dr Pepper


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 3, 2006)

Randy said:


> Some Christians would just say you were never saved in the first place.  I am sure you felt you were?



Christ himself will tell people they THOUGHT they were saved but he will tell them to "Depart, I never knew you" and cast them into thr lake of fire.

I know and have been around alot of JW's...VERY deceievd, Very mind controlling of their children, very dogmatic in their beliefs...Even though they dont stand up to the litmus test of the word of God.  Start mentionig the failed prophecies of their previous leaders and they turn and run or have a very memorized response from their "society".

A very well kown JW church elder got saved a few years back in our hometown and within a couple of years all but a few had come out of the cult and got saved. The local Kingdom Hall here is shut down.

Now the Mormons are taking over.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 3, 2006)

Flash said:


> Darton, Thanks for your replies. Put me on the agree to disagree list.




No problem Flash. Stick with what you got until YOU see otherwise.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 3, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> Christ himself will tell people they THOUGHT they were saved but he will tell them to "Depart, I never knew you" and cast them into thr lake of fire.
> 
> I know and have been around alot of JW's...VERY deceievd, Very mind controlling of their children, very dogmatic in their beliefs...Even though they dont stand up to the litmus test of the word of God.  Start mentionig the failed prophecies of their previous leaders and they turn and run or have a very memorized response from their "society".
> 
> ...




TN Extreme,

Most of what has been said on this thread about JW's is false or really has bad logic. 

If someone decides to stop being a Witness and chooses another religion, does that make the religon he left wrong? or the one he went to right?

If so I left the Baptist faith and became a witness?? I would hate to think someone stopped being a baptist just because I did. They should always look the facts! There are 6 million Witness's and a lot came out of various religions.

I am going to call you on one claim I think is very false, but we will see.Where is the congregation that had to shut down because everyone stopped being a JW? I will find out the facts, good or bad, and post them here for everyone to see. 

What denomination are YOU?


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 3, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> TN Extreme,
> 
> Most of what has been said on this thread about JW's is false or really has bad logic.
> 
> ...




Byrdstown Tennessee.....they shut down Kingdom Hall and the few remaining members moved to the next town.

I am sorry that you are so deceived.  I am sorry that you allowed yourself to be deceieved.

FYI...I attend a Independent Baptist Church.  Where the Bible is preached as it is written.  We dont feel the need to make bogus claims about Christ apearing, nor do we prophecy and then backpeddle when they dont come true.

Were praying for you.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 3, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> There are 6 million Witness's and a lot came out of various religions.





Lets see 6 million JW's minu the 144,000 that will be "saved".

That leaves a bunch of folks with no where to go.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 3, 2006)

Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916).  Founder of the Jehovah Witness movement.

As a teenager he rejected his Presbyterian roots, joined a more liberal Congregational Church, then left this group as well. He denied the deity of Christ and the biblical teachings on wordydirtywordydirtywordydirtywordydirty and eternal punishment. Russell had no formal Bible training, but borrowed and built upon various teachings that were popular at the time. For example, Adventism influenced his denial of wordydirtywordydirtywordydirtywordydirty, and a splinter Adventist group led by N.H. Barbour aroused his interest in end time prophecies. From Barbour he borrowed the belief that Christ returned invisibly to the world in 1874, and that 1914 was the year the world would be destroyed and the Millennium would begin.


Now why on God's green earth would someone follow a "faith" that was based on lies and false predictions???


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 3, 2006)

Jody Hawk said:


> First, I ain't attacking anyones beliefs, just curious as to why they believe that way. We had a young lady come and accept Christ and join our church during the invitation the other night. After that she told our congregation that she left the Jehovah's Witnesses and now her parents have nothing to do with her. I was talking to a guy that I work (baptist) with about this, his Mama is Jehovah's Witness. He said that the only reason his Mama has anything to do with him is because he never was a Jehovah's Witness. He said if you join their church and then leave for another denomination, then they have nothing else to do with you.




This is what started the thread and it deserves an answer.

There are several different cases that could exist. 

If someone comes  for years but decides that they just don't want to be a JW. They never get dedicated or batized. They really are never a JW. Nothing changes. I have had plenty of people I would call friends that have made that decision. Now we might lose touch, but there is no hard feelings at all.

On the other hand, If someone studies the bible, decides for themselves that they want to dedicate their life to serving Jehovah and symbolize it by water baptism. Then they are a JW at that point. Say they stop all association with JW's. then nothing changes. We go by try visit and encourage.

But if that same person starts  practicing serious sin, like those sins mentioned at 1Cor 5:11. He is talked to  numerous time and help is offered, but he decides he is going to continue and is unrepentant,  then that person is  disfellowsiped from the congregation. 1 Cor 5:1 Paul address a issue of  of a man sleeping with his son's wife. at 1 Cor 5 :13 Paul tells them to remove him from  the congregation. 2 John 9-11 says don't even  say a greeting to him. So yes that person is shunned in hopes they will come to their senses. We might still conduct busines or family matters with them, but there is no socializing. All they have to do is repent and stop doing those things listed in the scriptures and they are reinstated. The person Paul was talking about was later reinstated in the congregation. They knew this before they ever get baptized.

Yes that is hard for me, it is contary to my nature. I like to be friendly to everyone, but that is where I have to trust in the bible. I have a couple of good friends who got disfellowshipped when secret sins were revealed.

People who get caught doing these things and are disfellowshipped become very bitter. Sometimes they are consumed by it and do all they can to spread lies about JW's. Most when they tell you how horrible they are being treated, never mention what they got caught doing, or that they could have just stopped and repented.  But JW's try to keep the congregation clean. If you want to pracctice these things and are unrepentant then you shouldn't be a JW.

Sounds hard, and it is hard for me, but I believe that is how the bible tells us to handle these cases.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 3, 2006)

*TN_ Extreme*

TN_Extreme

I am glad you are happy with your beliefs, and I wish you the best. I am not on this thread trying to change people, or YOU, just trying to give them JW's real beliefs, which you twist up so greatly.When you insult me and my beliefs, displaying those good values, it  doesn't make me want to be an Independent Baptist either. I hope we can just respect each other and agree to disagree.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 4, 2006)

Darton,

I am showug you the greatest love of all. i am trying to show you the error of the cult you have fallen prey to.

One day, when we stand before God we will be reminded of all the Christians who tried to help us get saved. We will remember those who pleaded with us and showed us the error of our ways,.

My prayer is what I have told you on this topic doesnt haunt you for eternity.


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## Flash (Nov 4, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> . From Barbour he borrowed the belief that Christ returned invisibly to the world in 1874, and that 1914 was the year the world would be destroyed and the Millennium would begin.



 Darton is it true that your church said that Jesus returned earlier? Could you comment on it.
   I was thinking it was in the early 1900's and He  was visible but only to a few.  But it's been a while since I read about it.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 4, 2006)

Flash said:


> Darton is it true that your church said that Jesus returned earlier? Could you comment on it.
> I was thinking it was in the early 1900's and He  was visible but only to a few.  But it's been a while since I read about it.




No truth what so ever. Not even a thread of truth. The last time he was visible to a few of his followers was the 40 days after his resurrection. Thanks for asking.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 4, 2006)

Darton....Not true at all.  It is written right there in some of the early Watchtower tracts that Jesus returned "invisibly" to earth in 1914.  Although several of the leaders of the JW's claimed to have seen him and spoken to him.  Just like Joseph Smith, he claimed to have seen something only a few close people "saw" as well.

 Notice the similarities in the way cults get started.....Someone denied the Bible, refused to beleiev parts of it so he broke off with a handful of followers, calimed some outlandish "divine" happenings and "VOILA'..You have your own church/cult to believe whatever you want to believe.

They also believe that Michael ,the archangel ,became a human, in the form of Jesus.

You can read that in the 11/15/53 issue of the Watchtower Society beliefs and doctrines on page 703


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 4, 2006)

Darton....Question.

You have a pic of a cute precious baby  in your posts....

What oiof that child was in desperate need of a blood transfusion after a traumatic surgery or accident??  Wothout it it would , GOD FORBID, perish...

Would you allow the blood transfusion??


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## Arrowslinger (Nov 4, 2006)

If anybody would care to they can run a simple check on the things the TN Extreme has mentioned concerning JW leadership saying Jesus appeared to them etc. Darton you can't refute that fact because your church claims it and it was widely distributed in print by the Watch Tower society. I personally would do anything in my power to save the life of any child. I often thought about what TN Extreme said, I just don't see how someone could let a child die for lack of a blood transfusion. I would like to know why JW's won't Celebrate the birth of Jesus as did every angel in heaven.


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## 60Grit (Nov 4, 2006)

Arrowslinger said:


> If anybody would care to they can run a simple check on the things the TN Extreme has mentioned concerning JW leadership saying Jesus appeared to them etc. Darton you can't refute that fact because your church claims it and it was widely distributed in print by the Watch Tower society. I personally would do anything in my power to save the life of any child. I often thought about what TN Extreme said, I just don't see how someone could let a child die for lack of a blood transfusion. I would like to know why JW's won't Celebrate the birth of Jesus as did every angel in heaven.


 

What Arrowslinger is saying here goes much deeper than his words and emotions. What he is referring to is the basic life giving blood, the same that Jesus, our Lord and Savior, gave to save us. 

The subtle freudian slips by JW are the ones that give up the difference between scripted teachings and true belief. He questioned the salvation of Adam and Eve in earlier threads. There was no salvation until Jesus gave his blood for us.

Funny that someone claiming to be slain in the spirit doesn't understand that the ultimate sacrifice involved blood. It was let for those he did not know, but instead for all generations to come.

If Jesus could do that for us, could the least we do is give ours for our own flesh?

The problem I have found in talks with JW's is that 1+1=1. When you throw true spiritual ferver into the mix, not just quoting scripture, they are envious of your joy and cannot continue their schpeil (sp?)

How can you walk among and witness to others, if you shun them for their flaws as a human? I don't remember Jesus doing this!!! Why would they do it to their members??

Way too many questions that have no biblical answers. Yes there can be independant scripture extracted from its true content in order to use it as an arguement. As a side note, the Quran also uses this trick.

One thing for sure, the Bible does warn us of false prophets, and I think that there are several popular religions or beliefs, globally, whose founders fit that tag to a tee.


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## Flash (Nov 5, 2006)

Tn_Extreme said:


> It is written right there in some of the early Watchtower tracts that Jesus returned "invisibly" to earth in 1914.
> 
> 
> They also believe that Michael ,the archangel ,became a human, in the form of Jesus.
> ...



 1914 is what I was trying to remember. Darton could you address the return in 1914 and the Michael the archangel issue. Thanks again


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 5, 2006)

Flash said:


> 1914 is what I was trying to remember. Darton could you address the return in 1914 and the Michael the archangel issue. Thanks again



Flash this is the article on page pg 703 dated 11/15/53. iT is a question on the stars and galaxy.  I think someone gave you a bad reference. I have it on disk and it would take forever to look through 60 years.
 But when I get back tonight I will answer the 1914 and try to add more to the archangel business, but still, like my previous answer no one saw Jesus in 1914. Take Care

Questions From Readers

â—� What is meant by ‘binding the sweet influences of the Pleiades’ or ‘loosing the bands of Orion’ or ‘bringing forth Mazzaroth in his seasons’ or ‘guiding Arcturus with his sons,’ as mentioned at Job 38:31, 32?—W. S., New York.


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## bollman85 (Nov 5, 2006)

Flash said:


> I thought all roads went down from the top of them hills.
> 
> Rouster as I understand they believe in working their way to the good place (top 144,000 get in). The rest of the "good ones" stay on a new earth called paradise. If you are bad instead of going to the BAD place you simply cease to exist.     Birthdays, holidays etc are not recognized since all days are equal.
> You won't find a practicing JW in the military cause saluting the flag would be a form of idolatary (sp?)



Graduated from the Infantry School at Fort Benning, GA with a JW


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## Flash (Nov 5, 2006)

bollman85 said:


> Graduated from the Infantry School at Fort Benning, GA with a JW



 Was he active in his faith? What about paying respect to the flag?   I served with one guy (to my knowledge) during my 20 yrs. But he didn't practice.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 5, 2006)

Flash said:


> 1914 is what I was trying to remember. Darton could you address the return in 1914 and the Michael the archangel issue. Thanks again



The name  Michael appears only five times in the Bible.  (Dan. 10:13; 12:1; Jude 9) Michael means “Who Is Like God?” (Which Jesus is)The name evidently designates Michael as the one who takes the lead in upholding Jehovah’s sovereignty and destroying God’s enemies.

At 1wordydirtyThessalonians 4:16 , the command of Jesus Christ for the resurrection to begin is described as “the archangel’s call,” and Jude 9 says that the archangel is Michael. Would it be appropriate to liken Jesus’ commanding call to that of someone lesser in authority? Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ. (Interestingly, the expression “archangel” is never found in the plural in the Scriptures, thus implying that there is only one.)

Revelation 12:7-12 says that Michael and his angels would war against Satan and hurl him and his wicked angels out of heaven in connection with the conferring of kingly authority on Christ. Jesus is later depicted as leading the armies of heaven in war against the nations of the world. (Rev. 19:11-16) Is it not reasonable that Jesus would also be the one to take action against the one he described as “ruler of this world,” Satan the Devil? (John 12:31) Daniel 12:1  associates the ‘standing up of Michael’ to act with authority with “a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time.” That would certainly fit the experience of the nations when Christ as heavenly executioner takes action against them. So the evidence indicates that the Son of God was known as Michael before he came to earth and is known also by that name since his return to heaven where he resides as the glorified spirit Son of God So Jesus did come to the earth , in flesh and blood, and died for our sins. He has held the title Michael the archangel before he came and still holds it now in heaven.
I don't understand the point? If he is not over all the angels than who is? Let me know. Hope this clarifies it some.

I will get on the 1914 issue Monday.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 5, 2006)

BINGO...that post tells us alot.  Thanks for posting.

BTW, You never answered my question.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 5, 2006)

Watchtower Sciety says it is wrong to kill/hunt "for sport".

http://www.watchtower.org/e/rq/index.htm?article=article_12.htm


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## 60Grit (Nov 6, 2006)

What about the Trinity, and the Blood?

How can you be saved if you aren't slain in the spirit of God? You can' be slain in the spirit if you don't acknowledge the existance of the Trinity!!

Then theres is saved by the Blood of Christ that was shed for all, is your blood not good enough to give to your own if needed, but you claim to have been cleansed by the Blood of Jesus Christ?

Seems like a double standard.


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## toddboucher (Nov 6, 2006)

The truth is its a another Gospel as Paul said, Im not trying to be mean but to Write the truth in Love. I bevieve Paul in Chapter 1 of Galatians speaks right to these groups which have some or even many truths of the Bible but remember 1% error is really a 100% false doctrine. This is what Paul said in Galations 1:6-9" I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

If your a member of the JW or some other group search the truth and see if it is rooting 100% in the Word. My heart Im not trying to rip anyone's faith but to lead to the truth.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

*Trinity*



scooter1 said:


> What about the Trinity, and the Blood?
> 
> How can you be saved if you aren't slain in the spirit of God? You can' be slain in the spirit if you don't acknowledge the existance of the Trinity!!
> 
> ...



I do not think that many people, here on GON, believe in trinity, regardlesss of what their religion says, because it doesn't even make common sense. I am going to start another thread with a poll just to see.


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## 60Grit (Nov 6, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I do not think that many people, here on GON, believe in trinity, regardlesss of what their religion says, because it doesn't even make common sense. I am going to start another thread with a poll just to see.


 
Interestingly brave statement.

Although the word Trininty is not in the Bible, what you are saying is that not many on this forum believe in the Holy Father (God), the Son (Jesus, God incarnate in the flesh) and the Holy Spirit. All three which are mentioned in the bible.

I think I will just sit back and watch the replies on this one. We may have found the root of the issue here !!!


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

scooter1 said:


> Interestingly brave statement.
> 
> Although the word Trininty is not in the Bible, what you are saying is that not many on this forum believe in the Holy Father (God), the Son (Jesus, God incarnate in the flesh) and the Holy Spirit. All three which are mentioned in the bible.
> 
> I think I will just sit back and watch the replies on this one. We may have found the root of the issue here !!!


No I said they do not believe in trinity. I believe in the father, Jesus, and the holy spirit, but I do not believe they are three persons who are the same and equal. I am not sure how it will come out.


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 6, 2006)

Hey Guys,

Some of you have been a gentlemen and a scholar. Thanks. 

Others have a fevor of a lynch mob with little logic and no facts. Jesus warned about entering into disscussion with such people, because appreciation of the bible truths are not there. Matt 7:6
The topic was: What do JW's believe? Numerous posts were full of partial turths and some no truth, so I decide if people wanted to know, after I have been a Witness for 16 years, I would give them truthful answers. Agree or not, I respect a persons right, and ability to decide for themselves. There are those that know more about what JW's believe and why than I, so I will turn this thread back over to them. However if you have questions, and want answers from a Witness, please PM me.

PS: it looks like most here do believe in Trinity. I am surprised and was wrong!


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 6, 2006)

Hmmm..refeences to the "trininty" are all throughout the Bible. Christ even says so.

It is basic Bible 101.  My 9 year old daughter can read the Bible and understand the teachings on the triune of God.


Still no answer to my question Darton???


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## Flash (Nov 6, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> Michael means “Who Is Like God?” (Which Jesus is)  In the Christian faith Jesus is GOD in the flesh. I don't have my bible in front of me but I think the verses are John 1:1-15 or so
> 
> Reasonably, then, the archangel Michael is Jesus Christ.
> See above



  Agreeing to disagree


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## 270win (Nov 7, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> I do not think that many people, here on GON, believe in trinity, regardlesss of what their religion says



Looks like you were wrong there too...

ooops didn't see your p.s. on post 82...

270win


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## 270win (Nov 7, 2006)

Here's an interesting exerpt from a conservative Christian website...  I hate to copy and paste an article but this was very short and to the point...

According to the definition of the term, a cult is a group that denies essential biblical doctrine while claiming to be Christian. While the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, whose followers are known as Jehovah’s Witnesses, claims to be the true representative of Jesus Christ, it denies historic and essential Christian doctrines; therefore, evangelical Christians do, indeed, consider it a cult of Christianity. Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the doctrine of the Trinity, the omniscience and omnipresence of God, the personality of the Holy Spirit, the deity of Jesus Christ, the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ, the physical Second Coming of Jesus Christ to the earth, the consciousness of man after death, eternal punishment for unbelievers, justification by grace through faith alone, and they distort the doctrine of the bodily resurrection of believers and unbelievers. In addition, this cult imposes social restrictions on its followers. For instance, Jehovah’s Witnesses are forbidden from receiving and donating blood, saluting the flag, military service, and celebrating birthdays and Christian holidays. The Watchtower severely reprimands and even “disfellowships” members who question the leadership or otherwise think for themselves.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is a cult that originated in the 19th century. The group began as a small Bible study led by Charles Taze Russell in 1872. Zion’s Watch Tower Tract Society was started in 1884 by Russell and his followers. Several books and other resources by Russell were published by this group, and the teachings in them, along with those of Russell’s successor J. F. Rutherford, serve as the foundation for the cult’s beliefs. In 1931, the group adopted the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society as its name to distinguish itself from splinter groups. Jehovah’s Witnesses claim they do not follow any man, including Russell; however, their beliefs are founded on Russell’s false interpretations and teachings. 

There you have it....

270win


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## 270win (Nov 7, 2006)

DartonHunter101 said:


> PS: it looks like most here do believe in Trinity. I am surprised and was wrong!



It should not be surprising, that is basic yet essential Biblical doctrine...

270win


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 8, 2006)

Still no answer to my question......


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## whitworth (Nov 9, 2006)

*I told them folks I was a gambler*

and I never liked the odds the Jehovah Witnesses gave for going to heaven.


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## Tn_Extreme (Nov 9, 2006)

I was talking to a fellow church member last night at church about this thread. A little over 3 years ago he was saved and come out of the Watchtower cult.

  Long story short, he visitied my dad twice in one week trying to spread the "gospel" of the Watchtower and ended up seeing he was missing something. a little over a month later he was saved on an old fashioned alter along with his wife.

He knew all the "comebacks", many we have seen here, he quoted to me nearly word for word. 

I told him how the JW on this thread refuses to see what we say as truth....and he reminded me that he is blind. Satan has blinded his eyes and nothing we can do can change his mind.  Only God can do that and his heart has to be in the right shape to accept it.


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## 270win (Nov 9, 2006)

Yep, he just has to get tired of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.  If you search for the whole truth you will find it in Jesus alone...

Be blessed,
270win


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## DartonHunter101 (Nov 13, 2006)

*Thanks!*

Thanks for all the comments and PM's. If you have questions about JW's just PM me or email me at locust8@bellsouth.net.

Thanks

Chris


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