# how many of you?



## sadler2 (Jan 29, 2013)

Believe in the shock collar as a tool to train with?


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## ngaduck (Jan 29, 2013)

IMO, an e-collar is a necessity when training a retriever.


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## sadler2 (Jan 29, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> IMO, an e-collar is a necessity when training a retriever.



Got my sport dog 400 wetland hunter in today and in jusy one day I can tell a difference in my dogs attention span. She doesnt seem to get a distracted and pays more attention to me and what I want.


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## ngaduck (Jan 29, 2013)

Are you using any kind of program? I should have said, when used properly an e-collar is a necessity. I hope you did not just strap it on and start "shocking." There is are certain procedures to condition the dog to the collar. If you are not using a program, please for the dog's sake, look into one.


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## sadler2 (Jan 29, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Are you using any kind of program? I should have said, when used properly an e-collar is a necessity. I hope you did not just strap it on and start "shocking." There is are certain procedures to condition the dog to the collar. If you are not using a program, please for the dog's sake, look into one.



Using smartworks


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## Huntndemgaducks (Jan 29, 2013)

A shock collar is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM a necessity in training a retriever. My dog has never worn a "ecollar" and will hunt right beside if not out retrieve any other dog. 


_Posted from Gon.com App  for  Android_


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## Joe Overby (Jan 29, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> A shock collar is in NO WAY SHAPE OR FORM a necessity in training a retriever. My dog has never worn a "ecollar" and will hunt right beside if not out retrieve any other dog.
> 
> 
> _Posted from Gon.com App  for  Android_



I'll take that bet


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## Joe Overby (Jan 29, 2013)

Yes, an e-collar is a GREAT "TOOL" to use when training a retriever.  It is not used to "teach" anything though...when used properly, it should be used to reinforce KNOWN commands ONLY.  Dogs do not learn _because_ they are being shocked, they are taught and then when they make a mistake they are corrected...
Word of caution, many mistake a dogs response to pressure as an "understanding" of the pressure when really most of them are reacting "in spite of" the pressure.  BIG difference.


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 29, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> I'll take that bet



me too



Joe Overby said:


> Yes, an e-collar is a GREAT "TOOL" to use when training a retriever.  It is not used to "teach" anything though...when used properly, it should be used to reinforce KNOWN commands ONLY.  Dogs do not learn _because_ they are being shocked, they are taught and then when they make a mistake they are corrected...
> Word of caution, many mistake a dogs response to pressure as an "understanding" of the pressure when really most of them are reacting "in spite of" the pressure.  BIG difference.



Read the entire Skinner V. Pavlov debate on RTF. It'll make your head hurt.



sadler2 said:


> Got my sport dog 400 wetland hunter in today and in jusy one day I can tell a difference in my dogs attention span. She doesnt seem to get a distracted and pays more attention to me and what I want.



on day 1 of your collar what did you do to use the collar that you saw this difference? Graham uses it first to solidify the "Here" command I believe. Been a while since ive watched it but that's typically where we use it first as well.


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## bkl021475 (Jan 29, 2013)

sadler2 said:


> Got my sport dog 400 wetland hunter in today and in jusy one day I can tell a difference in my dogs attention span. She doesnt seem to get a distracted and pays more attention to me and what I want.



How is your Boykin?


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## Huntndemgaducks (Jan 29, 2013)

I would be more than willing to take the bet with either of you


_Posted from Gon.com  App for  Android_


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

Cherokee Foothills HUNT test is first weekend in March. I know we'll both be there. Sign up for Finished stakes, and It's about the best way to show off your dogs hunting savvy against a strict standard.


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## waterdogs (Jan 30, 2013)

NEED TO WATCH THE  WORD OUT RETRIEVE. MY dog can retrieve as well, but can your dog run blind retrieves, take cast, sit on a whistle and be steady to shot. E_COLLARS ARE USED TO ENFORCE A COMMAND THEY ALREADY KNOW. I THINK I WOULD PUT MY MONEY ON JOE'S DOGS AND OTHER ON HERE> HECK MAY EVEN USE MY DOG TOO.


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## bander_TC50 (Jan 30, 2013)

quick question, my dog understands the sit and stay commands, marks birds when they hit the water, i have two problems keeping him focused and still when the birds are working, and if i miss a duck or no birds fall when the guns are shot he basicly has a nervous breakdown, its like he gets too excited and cant stand it anymore and he starts whining and all that. he use to break and hit the watter when i miss. the last time that happend he swam about 100yards out into the water and i had to go get him, which caused me to put a leash on him while in the blind or cover. will an e-collar and a program help me fix this. if so what program is best.


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## thompsonsz71 (Jan 30, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> I would be more than willing to take the bet with either of you
> 
> 
> _Posted from Gon.com  App for  Android_



Ill back this up... Shane's dog is great and probably the best dog I've ever hunted with....


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## ngaduck (Jan 30, 2013)

bander_TC50 said:


> quick question, my dog understands the sit and stay commands, marks birds when they hit the water, i have two problems keeping him focused and still when the birds are working, and if i miss a duck or no birds fall when the guns are shot he basicly has a nervous breakdown, its like he gets too excited and cant stand it anymore and he starts whining and all that. he use to break and hit the watter when i miss. the last time that happend he swam about 100yards out into the water and i had to go get him, which caused me to put a leash on him while in the blind or cover. will an e-collar and a program help me fix this. if so what program is best.



Maybe, maybe not. From the sound of it, your dog seems to be an older dog has some bad habits that will be difficult to break. He does not understand that sit means sit. The ecollar is not the solution alone for you. Will a sound program help? Sure. Will it be easy? Not in the least. Smartwork will be your best bet for an easy to understand, complete program.



thompsonsz71 said:


> Ill back this up... Shane's dog is great and probably the best dog I've ever hunted with....



I've got $50 on Joe


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## ThunderRoad (Jan 30, 2013)

thompsonsz71 said:


> Ill back this up... Shane's dog is great and probably the best dog I've ever hunted with....



Bring him on up here. I'd like to see him work.


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> I've got $50 on Joe



im bringing Bones to the measuring contest....you better put 50$ on us too.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm sure a shock collar helps no doubt. But I also believe you can have a great dog without one. Look at King Buck (1948-1962) possibly the greatest retriever to ever live and I don't believe shock collars came out until the late 1960s. How many of your dogs have been featured on the federal duck stamp?


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## jerry russell (Jan 30, 2013)

If EVER used to punish a dog an e-collar is being misused. 
As an enforcement tool for known commands after the dogs has been collar conditioned, it is a great tool. 

If you run to the store to buy one out of frustration because your dog is giving you fits, then put it on yourself first. Then go buy a full training program to see what you are doing wrong.

If you train without one and have had success that is good for you but still you are in a minority. As part of a full program of training and a full understanding of how and when to use it,  it will prove to be a great tool for 98% of the trainers.

I try to get folks to always think before they push that button. Ask yourself what did I do wrong in training with a specific command and why is the dog non-compliant. Is he truely defying the command or is he confused? I can simply use the beeper in my dogs collar to get a positive response but sometimes it takes a more firm hand. An e-collar allows that hand to reach out at 150 yards when needed.

The smart works program does a great job of understanding the e-collar.


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## Mark K (Jan 30, 2013)

So, those of you that use an e-collar, do you hunt with one or just train with one???


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## ThunderRoad (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> So, those of you that use an e-collar, do you hunt with one or just train with one???



I always hunt my dog with a collar on. When you have birds lighting on top of you and 10 guns in a hole its comforting to know I can correct from a remote location if need be. That being said, I rarely correct when we hunt.


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## ThunderRoad (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> I'm sure a shock collar helps no doubt. But I also believe you can have a great dog without one. Look at King Buck (1948-1962) possibly the greatest retriever to ever live and I don't believe shock collars came out until the late 1960s. How many of your dogs have been featured on the federal duck stamp?



Only one dog has been on a duck stamp so I dont know what that is proving. There were plenty of great dogs prior to the use of e-collars but for an amateur trainer it makes solidifying OB much easier. This is especially true for dogs like mine who have insane amounts of drive.


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## ThunderRoad (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> I'm sure a shock collar helps no doubt. But I also believe you can have a great dog without one. Look at King Buck (1948-1962) possibly the greatest retriever to ever live and I don't believe shock collars came out until the late 1960s. How many of your dogs have been featured on the federal duck stamp?



And I would also argue that Panther was a better retriever than Buck...


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

"Only one dog has been on a duck stamp so I dont know what that is proving."

I am aware of this. It proves that Buck is the only dog that has ever been worthy of being on the federal duck stamp. And he wasn't trained with an e collar. Like I said, they do help, but let's not forget that dogs were trained prior to the invention of the shock collar. And were just as good, if not better, than the dogs now.


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## fowl player (Jan 30, 2013)

it may not be an ABSOLUTE necessity if your technical but it dang sure helps especially using smart works like i do on my dogs you wont catch me without one


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## ThunderRoad (Jan 30, 2013)

Id say Black Panther, Shed of Arden, and Bracken's Sweep could all have been on stamps.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Turkey Trax said:


> Cherokee Foothills HUNT test is first weekend in March. I know we'll both be there. Sign up for Finished stakes, and It's about the best way to show off your dogs hunting savvy against a strict standard.



I'll one up that...the SRS is in Cheraw SC in May.  I'll be there with 2 dogs in the OPEN division.  Ya'll want a measuring contest......
Z71 and Huntindemgaduks....i'm glad you are proud of yours and your buddies dog.  I am glad the dog does what you need. DO NOT condemn those of us that use e collars.  If the dog truly is that good...and will out retrieve ANY dog, than you honestly have my curiosity peaked.  I have THOUSANDS of dollars and THOUSANDS of hours in my dogs.  I have proven my old dog IS better than 99% of those out there with the titles both before and after his name.  I have put my money where my mouth is and PROVEN it.  I invite you guys to atleast come and train with us.  If your dog is honestly that good, it will be grossly evident.  I don't normally get sucked into this stuff on forums but i'm feelin froggy.  
oh BTW,
GRHRCH UH "Hooch" MH, SRS 5th place, HRC 1500 pt club, Qual jams...over 2000 ducks picked up
HRCH "Bones" MH QAA, OPEN and AMATEUR jams, SRS 2nd place, 2nd chocolate dog EVER to be invited to the SRS Crown


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> but let's not forget that dogs were trained prior to the invention of the shock collar. And were just as good, if not better, than the dogs now.



really? we've already had this discussion in another thread concerning Field Trials. But what do YOU base that statement on? I contend the work asked of the dogs is different now and the dogs are different now. 

And just a little thought for you because you seem to be one of the "against collars" guys...Do you know what kind of force was used on dogs before we had the tool of an e-collar? All the dogs trained before e-collars, weren't just given biscuits, and nice pets, and good dogs, to get them to do the work. I assure you, that the force used with an e-collar is way more humane, gives perfectly timed corrections, and is highly more effective.


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## Mark K (Jan 30, 2013)

If they are for training purposes only, why hunt with one?


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

who said they are for training purposes only?


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> "Only one dog has been on a duck stamp so I dont know what that is proving."
> 
> I am aware of this. It proves that Buck is the only dog that has ever been worthy of being on the federal duck stamp. And he wasn't trained with an e collar. Like I said, they do help, but let's not forget that dogs were trained prior to the invention of the shock collar. And were just as good, if not better, than the dogs now.



That doesnt prove a thing....
Define "worthy"...
The entire reason FT's have gotten SO big and SO technical is because the dogs are better.  The FCs of King Bucks era are comparable to the MHs of today.  Thats right, I said it.  Todays FC is WAAAY more dog than the ones of old.  Some in part to better breeding, and most in part to better training methods INCLUDING the advent and use of the E-Collar.  But please, don't take my word for it.  Simply do a search of "amish" trainers in the dog world and look at their success and their finish/pass rate...then look at Lardy, Farmer, Kip Kemp, Attar, Ledford, Mark Smith, Gary Zellner...you get the point...and then tell me why.


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

Stop joe. Facts aren't relevant.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Im sorry.....i'll go stand with my nose in the corner...


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## Mark K (Jan 30, 2013)

> who said they are for training purposes only?



That's what this thread was about unless I misread it. Everyone is mentioning what "training" program they're using. What a great "training" tool it is. Right??

So they aren't for training??


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

worthy - (1)of commendable excellence or merit; deserving

(2) having adequate or great merit, character, or value


Maybe you should send a letter to someone and try to get your dog on the federal duck stamp. 

I'm not against shock collars. I have one.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> That's what this thread was about unless I misread it. Everyone is mentioning what "training" program they're using. What a great "training" tool it is. Right??
> 
> So they aren't for training??



Listen man, I NEVER stop training.  Even when hunting, if my pup does something that violates MY standard for proper behavior, I correct and move on.  Sometimes I use the collar, sometimes I go out and pick up the bird myself, other times I have my buddy send his dog...it just depends...but, if your dog isn't wearing a collar it COULD make it more difficult to correct to uphold your standard.  The collar is a great tool....would you go to work and leave some of your tools at home???  I didnt think so.  If you have the tool, might as well take it along with you just in case.  I use the collar for training and while hunting.  That doesnt mean im always pushing buttons but, theres no harm in him wearing it just in case i need it.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> worthy - (1)of commendable excellence or merit; deserving
> 
> (2) having adequate or great merit, character, or value
> 
> ...



And what made King Buck "worthy"?? His accomplishments??  His progeny??  His conformation???  I don't need a duck stamp to prove anything.  I do it EVERY weekend when I go to the line.  But then again, i'm not allowed in the he-man field trial dog haters club.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Read his story. It's really interesting. Just type "King Buck Labrador Retriever" into Google. Then snoop around. 

All I'm saying is great dogs were trained prior to shock collars, so the answer to the question of necessity is, no they are not necessary but can be very useful. 

I'm sure your dog is a champ. Good job.


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## Mark K (Jan 30, 2013)

Ok. So it's a necessity. I guess dogs are like humans, we all make mistakes, they just get electrocuted for theirs.
I personally don't use a collar. I've seen dogs with collars and they are machines - not dogs. I've watched them go completely under water from being "nicked" because they weren't in a straight line they had been "trained" to take. I've also seen a dog without the alphabet next to his name in action and just heard he made his 8,000 retrieve. To each his own.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

I know the story of King Buck...however, there are many, many, more worthy dogs IMO.  River Oaks Corky, Lottie, Super Powder, Super Tanker, Aces High III, Lean Mac, and Taduh to name a few.  I could go on and on...multiple Nat'l titles, multiple titled progeny, many being the cornerstone world renowned breeding programs such as Candlewoods Kennels.  King Buck was an FC, yes....and???  Thats all i'm saying.  That AND I wouldn't train a retriever without force fetch and I wouldnt train one if I couldn't use a collar.  I'm certainly not gonna start shooting dogs in the rear end to get them to sit on the whistle.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I just see the collars over used and mis used. I know plenty of dogs that walk around on pins and needles scared they are about to get zapped. That bothers me. My dog is my buddy. He rides around and shoots the breeze with me.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Ok. So it's a necessity. I guess dogs are like humans, we all make mistakes, they just get electrocuted for theirs.
> I personally don't use a collar. I've seen dogs with collars and they are machines - not dogs. I've watched them go completely under water from being "nicked" because they weren't in a straight line they had been "trained" to take. I've also seen a dog without the alphabet next to his name in action and just heard he made his 8,000 retrieve. To each his own.



Then you havent seen the usage of the collar properly demonstrated.  My training standard dictates the necessity of a collar.  I have better hunting dogs for it.  Glad you're happy with the results you get despite not using the collar.  FWIW, i'd personally rather have a "machine" in the field.


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> I just see the collars over used and mis used. I know plenty of dogs that walk around on pins and needles scared they are about to get zapped. That bothers me. My dog is my buddy. He rides around and shoots the breeze with me.



I see some of that too. But what you have to understand is that the methods used before ecollars were even worse. My dog blows off a whistle. he gets a nick. Mr. 1940's FT trainer's dog blows off a whistle his training partner shot him in the back end with bird shot out of a 12 gauge. Which is worse?


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> I just see the collars over used and mis used. I know plenty of dogs that walk around on pins and needles scared they are about to get zapped. That bothers me. My dog is my buddy. He rides around and shoots the breeze with me.



Mine are no different.  Their tails wag when they see the collar cause they know there are birds in the very near future.  I teach "Bang means fun" here at my kennel but the same can be said for the e-collar.  The misuse of a few gives ALL of us who use them a bad rap...sounds like the gun-control argument of today. Use em, don't use em I really dont care but, they are NOT inherently bad.  They are a valuable tool when implemented properly into a structured training program.

My dogs are my "truck buddies" too...brown dog at my feet regards...


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

"I see some of that too. But what you have to understand is that the methods used before ecollars were even worse. My dog blows off a whistle. he gets a nick. Mr. 1940's FT trainer's dog blows off a whistle his training partner shot him in the back end with bird shot out of a 12 gauge. Which is worse?"

Depends on the distance really.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> "I see some of that too. But what you have to understand is that the methods used before ecollars were even worse. My dog blows off a whistle. he gets a nick. Mr. 1940's FT trainer's dog blows off a whistle his training partner shot him in the back end with bird shot out of a 12 gauge. Which is worse?"
> 
> Depends on the distance really.



WOW.....not so much


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> Depends on the distance really.



wow...

lunch break is over and im done with this one today. 

me and my poor mistreated e-collar victim dog regards....


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Maybe you should train my dog, King George.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

How does it not depend on distance? You've never been shot in a bird field? Depending on how far you are depends on how bad it hurts. Cmon thats common sense.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Those shock collars hurt like - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - too. I've tried them out before I strap one on Mr. King George.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

You can't say - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -?


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Tell that to the hundreds of dogs that are blind in one eye.  You claim an e-collar is in humane and then contend that physically shooting a dog with a shotgun is more humane??  Sorry if myself and a number of others on this forum are going to disagree.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Furthermore, I bet that shock collar hurts worse than a 12 gauge at further distances. But I guess that would depend on how far your dog can retrieve.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> Furthermore, I bet that shock collar hurts worse than a 12 gauge at further distances. But I guess that would depend on how far your dog can retrieve.



And thats part of the point.  You cannot effectively correct a dog @ 400 yards without the use of an e-collar.  And yes, those distances ARE necessary for HUNTING....cripple a snow in an Arkansas rice field and tell me how far it sails.


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## Ocmulgee Arms (Jan 30, 2013)

I have been training my own dogs since the late 70's using methods tought to me by an old man I grew up hunting with. Never used shock collars, beatings or shooting them. They , including my present one, have all worked on a whistle. Some did blinds better than others. I use two different collars, one for working and one for all the other times. I have used that for all my dogs. When i say lets go she goes and gets her working collar for me to put it on. None of mine would ever win a ribbon but I never had to get my own game. I don't have a problem with shock collars but many are missused.  Not saying mine is the best by any means but I have seen her out mark, out retrieve, and generally out hunt some "professionaly" trained dogs on collars.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> I don't believe I said that......I believe you mis-read. I said they both hurt like ssip. I have actually been shot in the eye before, in the bird field. When guys bring their girlfriends to a shoot, I usually distance myself now.



I didnt misread anything.  You said that depending on distance, shooting a dog with a 12 ga hurts less than the e-collar.  I interpret that to mean that you believe shooting a dog is more humane than using an e collar.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't cripple birds.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm putting my boots on.....before it gets too deep.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

My birds fall so close, I hand them to George and he goes and hides them from Mr. Green Jeans.


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## ngaduck (Jan 30, 2013)

Wow, I missed all this....



ngaduck said:


> IMO, an e-collar is a necessity when training a retriever.



I will repeat myself.

IN MY OPINION, an e-collar is a necessity when training a retriever. And add, also a necessity while hunting.



awm83 said:


> I don't cripple birds.



Ok


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I will repeat myself...

I don't cripple birds


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## puddlehunter (Jan 30, 2013)

The collar is a training tool, it can be an effective one, so much so that a lot of modern training programs are set up expecting you to use a collar.  Tons of dogs have been trained and are superb without the collar.  Sometimes I think they are used because of laziness or ignorance and they are easy.  Good do trainers of any breed do not need them to get the results they need.  I worked with a dog trainer that has been training working dogs that have a whole lot more drive than any retriever and the collar has never been used to get results.  Some of these dogs are being used all over the world.   Use the collar if you need to, if you don't I would say don't.  Once you use it you are pretty much going to have to use it from that point on to reinforce commands.  I have had to use it before, I didnt like having to do it.  It made me feel like I had failed as a trainer to this particular dog


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## ngaduck (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> I will repeat myself...
> 
> I don't cripple birds



I said OK


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

NG Alum, who is now no longer included in the discusssions on GON, has never used a Ecollar and has the best dog this side oft he Mississippi. There are rumors going around that his dog could be the   2nd dog to be featured on the federal duck stamp.


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## jwjack7641 (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> My birds fall so close, I hand them to George and he goes and hides them from Mr. Green Jeans.



Sounds like you don't even need a dog.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't really. Just to go hide birds and companionship.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

"I didnt misread anything. You said that depending on distance, shooting a dog with a 12 ga hurts less than the e-collar. I interpret that to mean that you believe shooting a dog is more humane than using an e collar."

Well then you mis-understood.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Or mis-interpreted


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

How would you expect me to "interpret" your statement??  Listen man, agree with me, disagree with me I dont care. I have my opinion based on a decade of training dogs at all levels in multiple venues.  I have trained everything from pointers and setters to spaniels and retrievers.  I have trained dual purpose bite/detection dogs and I have trained off lead explosives detection dogs for the USMC.  It works for ME.  If it can work for someone else than I will gladly help them out.  You have lost all credibility in this argument with me.  All you have is a profanity laced tyrade aimed @ Killer Elite and a series of nonsensical posts about your shooting skills. You have contributed absolutely NOTHING to this thread aside from enlightening the forum that you are for shooting dogs in the rear end with a shotgun over using an e-collar.  I apologize to the OP for severely de-railing this thread.  I'm not arguing about this anymore. It is simply a waste of time.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I haven't said anything cross to anyone. All I said was (1) You don't need a shock collar to effectively train a retriever (2) I don't cripple birds. (3) Shooting a dog is inhumane, but at 100 yards it doesn't hurt that bad. No worse than a shock collar.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> Maybe you should train my dog, King George.



So then who was this directed at??


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## Mark K (Jan 30, 2013)

There's a lot of contradiction here. Some trainers are still calling it a tool others say it's a necessity. I'm sure I could train an elephant with enough electricity. I could even understand it being used in "training" but it's not. Once an e-collar has been put on it MUST be used every time the dog is taken out. There's where I have the problem. Apparently the dog wasn't "trained" properly or you wouldn't have to use the collar.

Pesonally Joe, my dog is a member of my family. I don't want a machine for a dog. I could care less if he swims the entire length of the pond and out the other side to retrieve a duck then runs the bank back. I promise my dog will be back in the blind long before the dog that swims both ways. I hunt my dog. My job is to shoot, his is to retrieve. 

Oh yeah, I don't know AWM83, but I can read and he never said it's ok to shoot a dog. But if your asking whether I'd rather be peppered with bird shot at 100yds or hit with the collar, I'll take the 12ga all day!!


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> Those shock collars hurt like - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - too. I've tried them out before I strap one on Mr. King George.



No profanity huh??


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## thompsonsz71 (Jan 30, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> I'll one up that...the SRS is in Cheraw SC in May.  I'll be there with 2 dogs in the OPEN division.  Ya'll want a measuring contest......
> Z71 and Huntindemgaduks....i'm glad you are proud of yours and your buddies dog.  I am glad the dog does what you need. DO NOT condemn those of us that use e collars.  If the dog truly is that good...and will out retrieve ANY dog, than you honestly have my curiosity peaked.  I have THOUSANDS of dollars and THOUSANDS of hours in my dogs.  I have proven my old dog IS better than 99% of those out there with the titles both before and after his name.  I have put my money where my mouth is and PROVEN it.  I invite you guys to atleast come and train with us.  If your dog is honestly that good, it will be grossly evident.  I don't normally get sucked into this stuff on forums but i'm feelin froggy.
> oh BTW,
> GRHRCH UH "Hooch" MH, SRS 5th place, HRC 1500 pt club, Qual jams...over 2000 ducks picked up
> HRCH "Bones" MH QAA, OPEN and AMATEUR jams, SRS 2nd place, 2nd chocolate dog EVER to be invited to the SRS Crown


I was not condemning the use of an e collar... I will be using one with my lab... I was just stating that Shane's dog made a great impression on me... She will hunt for sure.... Since I'm new to the dog traing thing, which e collar should I buy? I will be using smart works with my dog


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

To clarify, comments 52-54 were directed to you. I just don't know how to put your comment in my box to show I was responding to it. Guess I shoot better than I "E- argue"


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> You can't say - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -?



And one more for good measure.....


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## Tag-a-long (Jan 30, 2013)

Waste of time maybe ... but it sure made for an entertaining lunch break!  Some enlightening posts in this thread.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

mark k said:


> there's a lot of contradiction here. Some trainers are still calling it a tool others say it's a necessity. I'm sure i could train an elephant with enough electricity. I could even understand it being used in "training" but it's not. Once an e-collar has been put on it must be used every time the dog is taken out. There's where i have the problem. Apparently the dog wasn't "trained" properly or you wouldn't have to use the collar.
> 
> Pesonally joe, my dog is a member of my family. I don't want a machine for a dog. I could care less if he swims the entire length of the pond and out the other side to retrieve a duck then runs the bank back. I promise my dog will be back in the blind long before the dog that swims both ways. I hunt my dog. My job is to shoot, his is to retrieve.
> 
> Oh yeah, i don't know awm83, but i can read and he never said it's ok to shoot a dog. But if your asking whether i'd rather be peppered with bird shot at 100yds or hit with the collar, i'll take the 12ga all day!!



exactly!


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> There's a lot of contradiction here. Some trainers are still calling it a tool others say it's a necessity. I'm sure I could train an elephant with enough electricity. I could even understand it being used in "training" but it's not. Once an e-collar has been put on it MUST be used every time the dog is taken out. There's where I have the problem. *Apparently the dog wasn't "trained" properly or you wouldn't have to use the collar*.
> 
> Pesonally Joe, my dog is a member of my family. I don't want a machine for a dog. I could care less if he swims the entire length of the pond and out the other side to retrieve a duck then runs the bank back. I promise my dog will be back in the blind long before the dog that swims both ways. I hunt my dog. My job is to shoot, his is to retrieve.
> 
> Oh yeah, I don't know AWM83, but I can read and he never said it's ok to shoot a dog. But if your asking whether I'd rather be peppered with bird shot at 100yds or hit with the collar, I'll take the 12ga all day!!



I disagree and I'll leave it at that.  Im glad you are happy with your dogs performance.  I want more than that.


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## bonecollector (Jan 30, 2013)

wow i have determined that i need a collar around my neck and someone pushing the button haha i get super excited when i hear the guns go off and always get full of crazy energy when the first bird falls ....just kiddn guys i admire each and everyone who has a great lab that is gettn it done nothing pertier than a dog doing work maybe one day i wont be my on retriever anymore haha


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I currently working on training George to drive my truck. Bird retrieving was too easy for him.


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## ngaduck (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> There's a lot of contradiction here. Some trainers are still calling it a tool others say it's a necessity. I'm sure I could train an elephant with enough electricity. I could even understand it being used in "training" but it's not. Once an e-collar has been put on it MUST be used every time the dog is taken out. There's where I have the problem. Apparently the dog wasn't "trained" properly or you wouldn't have to use the collar.
> 
> Pesonally Joe, my dog is a member of my family. I don't want a machine for a dog. I could care less if he swims the entire length of the pond and out the other side to retrieve a duck then runs the bank back. I promise my dog will be back in the blind long before the dog that swims both ways. I hunt my dog. My job is to shoot, his is to retrieve.
> 
> Oh yeah, I don't know AWM83, but I can read and he never said it's ok to shoot a dog. But if your asking whether I'd rather be peppered with bird shot at 100yds or hit with the collar, I'll take the 12ga all day!!



Is there no such thing as a necessary tool? Just because the dog has the collar on, does not mean it gets "shocked." My dog wears the collar while hunting just in case she breaks standard. That does not mean the dog is not properly trained. It means a dog can be a dog. I've seen some really great dogs do some really stupid things. Dogs are no different than kids in that aspect. A good kid will act up at some point and will more than likely be disciplined accordingly. The same goes for my dogs. If it blatantly disobeys, intensity will be increased as needed. BTW, all my dogs are part of the family.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

AW, if you'd like to direct comments at me, please call me out by name.  I don't hide behind a screen name.  But if reverting to name calling makes you feel better, than by all means...none of you have to agree with me.  I will continue to help those that want it and ask for it.  I know my program and its successes and failures.  It isn't based on one dog or even 2.....nor is my opinion based on a dog of a friend of a friends that i have seen hunt 1 time 2 years ago.....I will stick to my usage of the e-collar.  

BTW Mark, my dogs hunt too....his job is to retrieve as well...STRAIGHT out and STRAIGHT back.


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## ngaduck (Jan 30, 2013)

Joe, 
I agree with you buddy.


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## krazybronco2 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> There's a lot of contradiction here. Some trainers are still calling it a tool others say it's a necessity. I'm sure I could train an elephant with enough electricity. I could even understand it being used in "training" but it's not. Once an e-collar has been put on it MUST be used every time the dog is taken out. There's where I have the problem. Apparently the dog wasn't "trained" properly or you wouldn't have to use the collar.
> 
> Pesonally Joe, my dog is a member of my family. I don't want a machine for a dog. I could care less if he swims the entire length of the pond and out the other side to retrieve a duck then runs the bank back. I promise my dog will be back in the blind long before the dog that swims both ways. I hunt my dog. My job is to shoot, his is to retrieve.
> 
> Oh yeah, I don't know AWM83, but I can read and he never said it's ok to shoot a dog. But if your asking whether I'd rather be peppered with bird shot at 100yds or hit with the collar, I'll take the 12ga all day!!



only argument i have for your "dog isnt trained properly" is how do these dogs run hunt test and and field trials the dogs can not use any training aids. so the dogs have to be properly trained to be able to pass cause i dont think you can have that many luckey dogs in a weekend through out the country.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Joe,

No name calling here. Where are you getting this stuff? I'm not hiding behind anything. I just don't frequent these forums so I do not know the proper way to respond. I'm not gonna plaster all my personal info. on the WWW for every lunatic (no I'm not calling you a lunatic) to see. It's not necessary, like a shock collar isn't "necessary".


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

awm83 said:


> Joe,
> 
> No name calling here. Where are you getting this stuff? I'm not hiding behind anything. I just don't frequent these forums so I do not know the proper way to respond. I'm not gonna plaster all my personal info. on the WWW for every lunatic (no I'm not calling you a lunatic) to see. It's not necessary, like a shock collar isn't "necessary".



"Maybe you should train my dog, King George."

i believe it was post #52


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

Joe Overby said:


> "Maybe you should train my dog, King George."
> 
> i believe it was post #52





Haha. That's my dogs name. King George. I call him George.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

He's a descendent of King Buck.


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## awm83 (Jan 30, 2013)

I can't tell that lie. He's not a descendent of King Buck.


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## Mark K (Jan 30, 2013)

Krazybronco2, so your telling me these dogs that are trained with e-collars pass every test every time? 

BTW, I watch alot of the trials on TV and some days the best dog ever can look like a mutt found on the side of the road. Then again, he isn't wearing his collar during that trial either.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Krazybronco2, *so your telling me these dogs that are trained with e-collars pass every test every time? *
> 
> BTW, I watch alot of the trials on TV and some days the best dog ever can look like a mutt found on the side of the road. Then again, he isn't wearing his collar during that trial either.



My old dog had 65 straight finished passes in a row.  Thats 1,000 HRC Championship points without failure.  If im not mistaken it was 6 years straight.  Yes he was FF, yes he was trained with the collar, no he never wore a collar in a test or trial, and yes he ALWAYS wore it hunting.  So yes he passed almost every test, every time.


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## kmckinnie (Jan 30, 2013)

Duck season must be over.


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## krazybronco2 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mark K said:


> Krazybronco2, so your telling me these dogs that are trained with e-collars pass every test every time?
> 
> BTW, I watch alot of the trials on TV and some days the best dog ever can look like a mutt found on the side of the road. Then again, he isn't wearing his collar during that trial either.



never said they pass every time but i am saying alot of dogs do pass and i cant say that all the dogs that get to the finished level have been e collar conditioned but many have and pass with out the collar on becuase they have been trained properly.


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## Huntndemgaducks (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry I took so long to get back, but In my post's I said that training a dog with an E-collar is NOT a must have, no where did I say that one can not be trained to be a good dog with one. Also, there is a huge difference between a dog who is trained to hunt and one who's main purpose is to do field trails. Now with that being cleared up I stand by my statement, in a hunting scene my dog either will  be just as good as any other dog or will out retrieve any of these fancy pups.


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## labradoodle (Jan 30, 2013)

its like you can use a calculator on an arithmetic test, or you can do it all by hand.


kooombayah


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## ngaduck (Jan 30, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> Also, there is a huge difference between a dog who is trained to hunt and one who's main purpose is to do field trails.



Nope, training is all the same.


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## 12mcrebel (Jan 30, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> Sorry I took so long to get back, but In my post's I said that training a dog with an E-collar is NOT a must have, no where did I say that one can not be trained to be a good dog with one. Also, there is a huge difference between a dog who is trained to hunt and one who's main purpose is to do field trails. Now with that being cleared up I stand by my statement, in a hunting scene my dog either will  be just as good as any other dog or will out retrieve any of these fancy pups.



ok, who is gonna judge your dog compared to someone else's in the field? the only way to do that is a hunt test or field trial. put your dog in some and put some points on it since you seem so competitive.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 30, 2013)

Thank You!!!


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 30, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> Sorry I took so long to get back, but In my post's I said that training a dog with an E-collar is NOT a must have, no where did I say that one can not be trained to be a good dog with one. Also, there is a huge difference between a dog who is trained to hunt and one who's main purpose is to do field trails. Now with that being cleared up I stand by my statement, in a hunting scene my dog either will  be just as good as any other dog or will out retrieve any of these fancy pups.



I'm glad you're so high on your dogs ability. I'm sure he's a great hunting dog, and you're right training with an E-collar is NOT a must have. But it sure is nice.

But the rest of your post is not all that accurate. A hunt test is a hunting scenario that the dogs perform up to a predetermined standard set by the Hunting Retriever Club. They want to see a steady dog, a dog that handles well, a dog that can take the pressure of the environment, a dog with good trainability, a dog that can hold it all together with no training "tools" for a full weekend.
the Dog next to you on a stand or sitting on ground. Blow duck call. Gun in hand. Ducks get launched. you shoot ducks. Dog picks up ducks. Dog then runs blind. A couple other things involved but thats the gist of it. Its really a LOT of fun and great way to spend the off season and really makes your dog into something special come season. And the people involved are great to hand around.

Then there is the SRS like Joe mentioned. Several series of events. Hunt Test, hunt savvy, and FT. It's the ultimate in competitive dog games right now. It's the best of the best doing amazing work. 

It aint about being fancy. i can assure you none of us are fancy. Its about us wanting to get the very most out of our dogs. 

Give me the fancy dog that will run through a wall to get to a bird that it marked 450 yards away in a field trial and took a perfect line to the bird any day in a duck swamp. 

A dog that is trained to the highest level of hunt tests and FT's, finds hunting a breeze. Its like throwing fun bumpers in the yard to them. 
The great thing about it is the satisfaction we get when were hunting that absolutely nothing is gonna happen on this hunt that my dog can't handle. 


Here's a clip from this past years Crown championship. Really great dog work.


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## RUTTNBUCK (Jan 30, 2013)

In my opinion an E-Collar is a very effective tool when used properly............Does everybody know how to use one properly is the question!!

Is it wrong to use one??.............In my opinion No.

Is it cruel to the dog??.............In my opinion No!!

I have seen our dog get excited when the E-Collar comes out!!............He knows he is going to have fun!!

Can it be done without one??.......Yes!!........It is up to the person doing the training!!


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## Ga Woodrow (Jan 30, 2013)

sadler2 said:


> Believe in the shock collar as a tool to train with?



As to the original question...it is a great tool.  But you have also gotten some sound advice.  It can be a horrible tool if used incorrectly.  That sums it up.  Do your research, train with experienced handlers and tune out some of the silliness on this thread.  I have found it common that persons against the use of e-collars contributed to Obama's campaign fund, and are closet tree huggers.  Seriously some people use them not knowing how, and develop a bad opinion.  Most folks do not know what a good retriever is really capable of, and their idea of awesome is a little different than others.  Even though time in the field with your dog on even the most straight forward single is awesome, especially when you have done the training yourself.  Good luck to you with your pup.


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## Huntndemgaducks (Jan 31, 2013)

I would love to have the ability to put my dog through hunt tests but being in college and having a job its next to impossible. Also its not necessarily that e-collar dogs cant be amazing dogs, but its the fact that it seems most on this forum condemn dogs to not being able to be good dogs with-out an e-collar


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## krazybronco2 (Jan 31, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> I would love to have the ability to put my dog through hunt tests but being in college and having a job its next to impossible. Also its not necessarily that e-collar dogs cant be amazing dogs, but its the fact that it seems most on this forum condemn dogs to not being able to be good dogs with-out an e-collar



not impossible a hunt test for a started dog cost around $50 and there is one near you at the end of march in waynesboro. also there are a few training days one is this sat in lincon county. contact myself tag-a-long or ruttnbuck all three of us are in the local retriever clubs and get you the info you need.


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## waterdogs (Jan 31, 2013)

As i sit watching the 4x4 my black lab is sitting here with me watching.


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 31, 2013)

Here you go Lincoln, let her watch the field trial series of last years Crown.


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## awm83 (Jan 31, 2013)

waterdogs said:


> As i sit watching the 4x4 my black lab is sitting here with me watching.



At 3:20 am?


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## Joe Overby (Jan 31, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> I would love to have the ability to put my dog through hunt tests but being in college and having a job its next to impossible. Also its not necessarily that e-collar dogs cant be amazing dogs, but its the fact that it seems most on this forum condemn dogs to not being able to be good dogs with-out an e-collar



Man I have to disagree with that statement.  I just don't think thats true.  What I do believe many on the forum feel is that your dog could be _*better*_ if you did use an e-collar.  There is a fella in our training group that started about 6 or 7 years ago with his first dog.  He was vehemently against the usage of the e-collar for about the first 3 or 4 years.  He breezed through started and seasoned but hit a wall when it came to doing finished work.  The dog could mark just fine but would run a muck on a blind.  Well he finally broke down a bought a collar...after years of abuse....and it was almost overnight the difference in that dogs behavior.  Now, is that story typical??  Absolutely not.  Is it true.  Absolutely.  PM me if you want the fellas name and phone number to ask him questions about why he changed his mind.  Point is, e-collars arent bad, just like guns...it is their misuse that gets them a bad rap.  

As far as being in college and not being able to run HT's....i call BULL........dude, if your dog is honestly trained to the level you say he/she is then a seasoned test should be absolutely no problem.  If you are in Augusta, then you are only a couple hours from me.  Come visit one weekend.  We'll throw birds, drink some beers, and just generally have a good time.  I'll show you what I do to build a non-slip retriever...both in the field and on the line.


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## Huntndemgaducks (Jan 31, 2013)

I do not dis-like an e-collar when used correctly, but also with what I need done my dog does exactly what she needs to do. She will be 3 on Easter day and knows all of her commands like clock work. If she already knows this, I just cant see putting an e-collar on her. To each is own I guess but I just cant see spending the money on it when some dogs can do it without the collar.


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## nhancedsvt (Jan 31, 2013)

Huntndemgaducks said:


> Sorry I took so long to get back, but In my post's I said that training a dog with an E-collar is NOT a must have, no where did I say that one can not be trained to be a good dog with one. Also, there is a huge difference between a dog who is trained to hunt and one who's main purpose is to do field trails. Now with that being cleared up I stand by my statement, in a hunting scene my dog either will  be just as good as any other dog or will out retrieve any of these fancy pups.





Huntndemgaducks said:


> I would love to have the ability to put my dog through hunt tests but being in college and having a job its next to impossible. Also its not necessarily that e-collar dogs cant be amazing dogs, but its the fact that it seems most on this forum condemn dogs to not being able to be good dogs with-out an e-collar



If you are so confident in your dog's abilities take ngaduck's offer. He's got $50 on Joe's dog in finished class at HRC. That is a hunting set up. If you win, nothing lost. Entry fee is I think $60. If you lose well, it happens and you'll know not to test these guys next time.


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## T Tolbert (Jan 31, 2013)

ngaduck said:


> Joe,
> I agree with you buddy.




Yea what joe said ! 


If you have a 10 acre yard do you cut it with a push mower or a riding mower? 

The point is there are better ways to do things and an e collar is it.


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## Joe Overby (Jan 31, 2013)

Found this quote by a well known FT guru and found a portion of it relevant to this discussion.  Relevant parts are highlighted.

Posts 5, 9, 12, 14, 16, 19 address underlying qualities/traits that 
competitive folks over the years & today, value & place at the top 
when making decisions; decisions justifying time, expense, commitment 
in this sport which has become even more costly & competitive.

Traditionally: marking ability, trainability (tractability), desire, style, courage,
conformation, solid physical condition & endurance were looked for in pups,
verified in mature dogs and over 40-50 years these traits were reasons
there were field & amateur field champions. Knowledgeable and successful
campaigners preferred to acquire mature, proven older dogs rather than
experiment with the uncertainty of early months & years developing puppies 
even though many of these qualities were there, only to change thru training.

Dysplasia (hips, eyes & elbows) wasn't eradicated, but because of John Olin,
his generosity & Cornell University, great strides were made. This has been reflected in breeding programs and was a direct benefit from Mr. Olin's crusade.

*Training programs benefited by the collar offering varied levels of stimulation.
Such improvement has and will benefit the sport much like the example set by Olin. It widened the scope/ playing field for sensitive dogs with demeaners/
personalities that early on, one intensity collars tended to eliminate. This 
change improved the performance of dogs and indirectly contributed to
more titled dogs in pedigrees.*

Eventual awareness of all underlying inheritable diseases will occur in time
and much like the example of Mr. Olin's efforts, will improve the quality of
retrievers. 

Owners, breeders & trainers making prudent breeding decisions will help to reverse such genetic problems.

Today, Field Trialers who have the commiitment, wherewithall, training facilities
and time, will have to make hard decisions about the issues this discussion
presents. And, outstanding dogs like "Pete", "Guide" and others will make their
mark as pre-potent sires and there will be notable offspring in the record books.
It will require both time and descretion by patient knowledgeable competitors.


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## Turkey Trax (Jan 31, 2013)

Joe, just go pull some birds out to thaw.

Sincerely,


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## Joe Overby (Jan 31, 2013)

done, done, and done


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## Ga Woodrow (Jan 31, 2013)

Your statement that there is a huge difference in dogs that hunt and ones that run field trials is right on point, but not the way you meant it.  It is good you are pleased with your pup, but obvious you are a youngster.  Contrary to popular belief quite a few full time trial dogs go to the blind.  And if they can do a big triple with a nasty checkdown bird and then run a 400 yard blind off a scented point under the arc of the memory bird....they have the tools to sit in the blind.  You should take some time and cultivate knowledge about the sport and the pups.  It is a whole lot of fun to run tests and trials.  Even the most experienced and successful trainers constantly learn, plus it wouldn't be like me walking into a surgeons office and telling him the use of lasers is unnecessary trust me I have a lot of experience just go old school with the scalpel.  Maybe this will be the springboard to get you into the sport to have even more fun with the pup.  You will meet some of the finest people, and have a blast.


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## waterdogs (Jan 31, 2013)

awm83 said:


> At 3:20 am?



Yep, had to work late so nothing better to do so I got on here to read all the post for the day.


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