# Can You be a Christian If...



## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

Can you be a christian if you actively deny the divinity of Christ,(such things as all miracles including the resurrection, virgin birth), but accept his teachings, willing deface the bible to edit it for your purpose, and then submit it as the word of Jesus the human?


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## gemcgrew (May 17, 2012)

What definition of christian are we using?


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

I dunno, I don't consider myself one so thats why I posted here.


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## hobbs27 (May 17, 2012)

Thomas Jefferson did those things...If he's in heaven when I get there Ill ask him.If he's not, well then you can ask him.


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## gemcgrew (May 17, 2012)

It is your poll. If you can't define christian, the poll is meaningless IMO.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> It is your poll. If you can't define christian, the poll is meaningless IMO.



I have seen christian defined so broadly it we do me no good to even try.  Under the parameters given, I believe it easy to decide for those who consider themselves christians.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> It is your poll. If you can't define christian, the poll is meaningless IMO.



Perhaps you can help and give a definition.


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## stringmusic (May 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I have seen christian defined so broadly it we do me no good to even try.  Under the parameters given, I believe it easy to decide for those who consider themselves christians.



What exactly are you asking if you don't even have your own definition of what a Christian even is?


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## pnome (May 17, 2012)

I think no.  At least not by any definition I've ever heard.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> What exactly are you asking if you don't even have your own definition of what a Christian even is?



It seemed easy enough for you answer the poll.  I making no attempt to define "Christian".  I do not believe its necessary.  I'm asking those who call themselves christians, if they consider someone that meets the parameters above, a christian.  Why is that so difficult?

I'm not here to debate anything just satisfy my curiosity.


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## stringmusic (May 17, 2012)

Don't want to hijack your thread Bishop, but if you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask Artfuldodger to explain his position on his yes vote.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Don't want to hijack your thread Bishop, but if you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask Artfuldodger to explain his position on his yes vote.



It's not hijacking.  There is a reason I made it public.


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## stringmusic (May 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> It seemed easy enough for you answer the poll.


Because I have a basic definition of what a Christian is.



> I making no attempt to define "Christian".  I do not believe its necessary.  I'm asking those who call themselves christians, if they consider someone that meets the parameters above, a christian.



How do you plan on understanding the results of the poll if you do not have a definition of what makes a person Christian?


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## stringmusic (May 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> It's not hijacking.  There is a reason I made it public.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

Oh I think I'll make it String. This is not a poll on what I believe.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

Do you think making it public in here was a mistake?


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## formula1 (May 17, 2012)

*Re:*

I think this post is probably in violation of the rules of this SubForum considering we are not to set believers against unbelievers on this forum,  but I'll leave that to the Mods to decide.


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## stringmusic (May 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Do you think making it public in here was a mistake?



No.


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## centerpin fan (May 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> ... I would like to ask Artfuldodger to explain his position on his yes vote.



Based on AD's body of work in this forum, I'd say it's par for the course.


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## TheBishop (May 17, 2012)

formula1 said:


> I think this post is probably in violation of the rules of this SubForum considering we are not to set believers against unbelievers on this forum,  but I'll leave that to the Mods to decide.



How else can I find the answer if I dont ask the people that consider themselves to Christians.  If I asked this in AAA forum I would have sparked a debate on who is really a christrian.  That is NOT the purpose of this poll. 

THIS IS ONLY A POLL.


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## Artfuldodger (May 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Don't want to hijack your thread Bishop, but if you wouldn't mind, I would like to ask Artfuldodger to explain his position on his yes vote.



I don't deny the divinity of Jesus. But I can't find any scripture that says you have to. I believe in the diety of Jesus. I don't believe Jesus is God. 
But I have no way of proving, using the Bible, that you can't believe he is just a chosen man to be the Savior.


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## Artfuldodger (May 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Can you be a christian if you actively deny the divinity of Christ,(such things as all miracles including the resurrection, virgin birth), QUOTE]
> 
> Those things were performed by God. He can and has done  miracles & resurrections on others who weren't divine. Everything Jesus did on the earth was through the power of God.


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## Ronnie T (May 17, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Can you be a christian if you actively deny the divinity of Christ,(such things as all miracles including the resurrection, virgin birth), but accept his teachings, willing deface the bible to edit it for your purpose, and then submit it as the word of Jesus the human?



No.  You are not a Christian if you deny that Jesus was truly the only begotten Son of God.  That His was raised from the grave, three days after he had died on the cross.
A person who denies those things cannot be cleansed of sin by the shed blood of the Holy One who God sent into the world through a young lady who was indeed a virgin.

You cannot.  You can claim, but you ain't.
Not much else to discuss.

Special note:  I don't consider myself an expert on who is or isn't, God will deal with all that.


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## stringmusic (May 17, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> No.  You are not a Christian if you deny that Jesus was truly the only begotten Son of God.  That His was raised from the grave, three days after he had died on the cross.
> A person who denies those things cannot be cleansed of sin by the shed blood of the Holy One who God sent into the world through a young lady who was indeed a virgin.
> 
> You cannot.  You can claim, but you ain't.
> ...


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## fd1228 (May 17, 2012)

I agree with Ronnie T.


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## rjcruiser (May 17, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Based on AD's body of work in this forum, I'd say it's par for the course.



Exactly what I was thinking



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't deny the divinity of Jesus. But I can't find any scripture that says you have to. I believe in the diety of Jesus. I don't believe Jesus is God.
> But I have no way of proving, using the Bible, that you can't believe he is just a chosen man to be the Savior.



So...you don't like to read or study John 1?



Ronnie T said:


> No.  You are not a Christian if you deny that Jesus was truly the only begotten Son of God.  That His was raised from the grave, three days after he had died on the cross.
> A person who denies those things cannot be cleansed of sin by the shed blood of the Holy One who God sent into the world through a young lady who was indeed a virgin.
> 
> You cannot.  You can claim, but you ain't.
> ...



I'll go one step further.  Not only do you have to believe that Jesus wa sthe one and only begotten Son of God, but that He is God.


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## hobbs27 (May 17, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> I'll go one step further.  Not only do you have to believe that Jesus was the one and only begotten Son of God, but that He was God.



Change those (was) to (is)...and I will go along with you.


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## rjcruiser (May 17, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Change those (was) to (is)...and I will go along with you.



fixed.

that's what I get for multi-tasking while posting.


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## Artfuldodger (May 17, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> So...you don't like to read or study John 1?



The Word has the same nature as God.
The Word was Divine.
The Word was with God. How could the Word be with God if he was God.


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## rjcruiser (May 17, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> How could the Word be with God if he was God.



So you don't believe the following passage?

John 1:1  

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


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## Artfuldodger (May 17, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> So you don't believe the following passage?
> 
> John 1:1
> 
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



I do not think it was translated  correctly from Greek to English. I also feel Matthew 28:19 was added later. There are Apostolics who hold this view on Matthew 28:19 also. I believe as they do that you should be Baptized in the name of Jesus only.
We had this whole discussion where you can find my views on whether  Jesus is God. I do know for a fact Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins. He is the only way to Heaven.
Link to discussion:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=688342


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## ross the deer slayer (May 17, 2012)

Nice job Ronnie T..only thing I would add is John 3:16. One of the most well known bible verses.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 17, 2012)

As in all of history, the victors write history. The battle for orthodox was won over a long period of time. Trinitarians claim "orthodoxy". So everyone else is considered, by them I might add, as heritics. I'm used to it. But no one can show me any verse that says that unless you believe Jesus is God, then your lost. What was being denied when Jesus walked among us is that he was the messiah. I do however think that you have to believe in a spiritual resurrection to be Christian.


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## Artfuldodger (May 17, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> Nice job Ronnie T..only thing I would add is John 3:16. One of the most well known bible verses.



That is the most important verse in the Bible. It's really the only verse we truly need. Especially the OSAS group. You are only required to believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins.


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## hobbs27 (May 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> That is the most important verse in the Bible. It's really the only verse we truly need. Especially the OSAS group. You are only required to believe Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins.



I believe everything in the bible is there because God wanted it to be there.John 3:16 is a great verse but it alone is just milk, there's strong meat in Gods word. You must dig,and the mysteries will be revealed. It is more than black letters on white paper, it's the living word.Men have spent lifetimes reading and studying Gods word, it's like no other book.


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## fish hawk (May 18, 2012)

I really dont understand why you posted this poll here.....You should have posted it in the other sub forum,then you could have got the results you were looking for!


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## rjcruiser (May 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do not think it was translated  correctly from Greek to English. I also feel Matthew 28:19 was added later. There are Apostolics who hold this view on Matthew 28:19 also. I believe as they do that you should be Baptized in the name of Jesus only.
> We had this whole discussion where you can find my views on whether  Jesus is God. I do know for a fact Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins. He is the only way to Heaven.
> Link to discussion:
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=688342




Then why did Jesus say He is "I am?"

Why does John 1:10 say that the Word (Jesus) created the World when Genesis 1 says God created the World?  Are they contradictory?


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## hobbs27 (May 18, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Then why did Jesus say He is "I am?"



Many times Jesus refers to himself as I am...So does God to Moses Exodus 3:13-14. This should settle the question as to if Jesus and God are one in the same......but folks are stubborn and either ignore this very obvious claim of Jesus to be God, or they question the word of God, and its translation.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2012)

> But I have no way of proving, using the Bible, that you can't believe he is just a chosen man to be the Savior.




O-----M-----G



Where is that palm to forehead emoticon when I need it!


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## TheBishop (May 18, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> I really dont understand why you posted this poll here.....You should have posted it in the other sub forum,then you could have got the results you were looking for!



I'm getting exactly the results I was looking for.  That todays Christians  would reject the notion that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian.   

Just another quick question for any who care to answer:  Was it blasphemous for Thomas Jeffersons to take a bible and physically cut it up to get the message that HE wanted to share?


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## stringmusic (May 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> O-----M-----G
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There ya go!


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## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> Many times Jesus refers to himself as I am...So does God to Moses Exodus 3:13-14. This should settle the question as to if Jesus and God are one in the same......but folks are stubborn and either ignore this very obvious claim of Jesus to be God, or they question the word of God, and its translation.



These verses should trump your verses:

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


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## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> O-----M-----G[/SIZE
> 
> Where is that palm to forehead emoticon when I need it!




The Third Commandment reads: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.


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## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't deny the divinity of Jesus. But I can't find any scripture that says you have to. I believe in the diety of Jesus. I don't believe Jesus is God.
> But I have no way of proving, using the Bible, that you can't believe he is just a chosen man to be the Savior.



I personally believe Jesus is the son of God and that Mary his mother was a virgin. I can't prove this with the Bible because "virgin" wasn't the word used to describe Mary.

The word almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות) is a Hebrew feminine noun, for a girl who has reached puberty but is still under the shielding protection of her family; she is a young, marriageable (i.e. unmarried) girl. In Bibles, almah is typically translated as virgin, maiden, young woman, damsel or girl. For theological reasons, the meaning and definition of this word (especially the definition of "virgin") can be controversial, particularly when applied to Isaiah 7:14.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 18, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I'm getting exactly the results I was looking for.  That todays Christians  would reject the notion that Thomas Jefferson was a Christian.
> 
> Just another quick question for any who care to answer:  Was it blasphemous for Thomas Jeffersons to take a bible and physically cut it up to get the message that HE wanted to share?


Jefferson believed in a spiritual resurrection, but not a physical one, he believed that no one really saw him after his death. He believed much of the scriptures to be embellished. The miracles, physical resurrection, virgin birth, etc. But he did trust Jesus as his messiah/savior. This makes him a Christian by early church standards. But not the standards of today. They should be the in my opinion.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I personally believe Jesus is the son of God and that Mary his mother was a virgin. I can't prove this with the Bible because "virgin" wasn't the word used to describe Mary.
> 
> The word almah (עלמה, plural: alamot עלמות) is a Hebrew feminine noun, for a girl who has reached puberty but is still under the shielding protection of her family; she is a young, marriageable (i.e. unmarried) girl. In Bibles, almah is typically translated as virgin, maiden, young woman, damsel or girl. For theological reasons, the meaning and definition of this word (especially the definition of "virgin") can be controversial, particularly when applied to Isaiah 7:14.


 I believe he "became" the Son of God. As far as who fathered Jesus, what a mess. Of the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirt came upon Mary yet he is not the Father?


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## DCHunter (May 18, 2012)

You can have ice, steam, and liquid water. 3 different things, yet they're still H2O.


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## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Of the triune God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit came upon Mary yet he is not the Father?



Yet another reason not to believe in the Trinity. The Holy Spirit is God's spirit, not another entity. If you believe in the Trinity then the Holy Spirit is Jesus' father.


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## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

DCHunter said:


> You can have ice, steam, and liquid water. 3 different things, yet they're still H2O.



I think it's quite possible for God to be the trinity of anything he wants to be. They wouldn't even have to be related.


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## Ronnie T (May 18, 2012)

I've open a new thread to discuss the relationship that holds Jesus and God together.

Please don't discuss the subject in this thread any longer.

If you like, move your previous comments to the new thread.
Thanks.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> There ya go!



You are a gentleman and a scholar sir.  Thank you for your assistance!


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2012)

> These verses should trump your verses



Scripture does not trump itself.....it only confirms and compliments.


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2012)

> The Third Commandment reads: Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.




Oh  

My

Gracious.....gilbert....gunshot....gladiola....take your pick.



Just out of curiousity....would it be ok, biblically speaking, for me to go around yelling *OH MY JESUS*!!!!  I mean....since he's not God and all and since the Bible doesn't actually tell us that he's just some man that God chose to be "savior"?  Would that be ok since I'm not taking God's name in vain?


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## ross the deer slayer (May 18, 2012)

About The Trinity, Jesus is The Son and God is The Father. The Father,The Son and The Holy Spirit are all one. Think of this: you have a dad and a mom. You are part of your parents because you were born to them. You are controled by your parents because you are their child. Jesus is The Son of God and is controled by God but also is God because He is part of God(by being His Son). Jesus was sent to earth in the form of man. Man is made in God's image, not saying that man is God, but that Jesus is God and, while on earth, came in the form of man. That might sound like a bunch of the same words but read it. more than once and it should make more sense . Jesus, God and The Holy Spirit are One God. I also like the water example..I think that God uses water as proof of The Trinity "gas, solid, liquid..vapor, ice, water"..they're all H2O


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## Artfuldodger (May 18, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I've open a new thread to discuss the relationship that holds Jesus and God together.
> 
> Please don't discuss the subject in this thread any longer.
> 
> ...



See above from moderator.


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## TheBishop (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I thought it odd as well. TheBishop was not opposed to hijacking and further discussion. This sub forum "Come here to discuss and share your Christian or Jewish faith" may be the issue seeing that TheBishop does not consider himself to be a "Christian" or of "Jewish faith". If that is the case, perhaps the whole thread should be deleted or moved.



I believe Thomas Jefferson was right and all of you are wrong.  He believed being a christian had nothing to do with what you believe, but how you portray yourself as a individual.   Living good, doing good, and treating others accordingly.  In that sense I could call myself a christian. (I feel the term is unnecessary) Obviously most would disagree, and use the bible to villify me.  But I am not the one placing my faith in a book whos creation is embedded in aurthority and control.   The very reasoning T.J. was suspicious of the text and felt the true message of Jesus was lost.  Most of you in here won't trust our government (with good reason) but you trust the text formed by past governments, and ruling classes.  



> The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.
> -Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814





> Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.
> 
> -Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820





> To the corruptions of Christianity I am indeed opposed; but not to the genuine precepts of Jesus himself. I am a Christian, in the only sense he wished any one to be; sincerely attached to his doctrines, in preference to all others; ascribing to himself every human excellence; & believing he never claimed any other. Thomas Jefferson, letter to Benjamin Rush, May 21, 1803




Mods take action if you must. But do so with the realization that one of the greatest men to walk this earth would veiw those actions with great disdain.


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## gemcgrew (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I believe Thomas Jefferson was right and all of you are wrong.  He believed being a christian had nothing to do with what you believe, but how you portray yourself as a individual.   Living good, doing good, and treating others accordingly.  In that sense I could call myself a christian. (I feel the term is unnecessary) Obviously most would disagree, and use the bible to villify me.  But I am not the one placing my faith in a book whos creation is embedded in aurthority and control.



If Thomas Jefferson was right and he believed that a christian is nothing more than an individual that portrays them-self as a good person, even if they are void of belief, I could vote yes in this poll.

I am curious as to why you waited until post #57 to admit you had a definition of christian all along. It appears that you are being dishonest with us as well as yourself. I think dishonesty would prevent you from falling under Thomas Jefferson's broad definition of christian.


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## TheBishop (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> If Thomas Jefferson was right and he believed that a christian is nothing more than an individual that portrays them-self as a good person, even if they are void of belief, I could vote yes in this poll.
> 
> I am curious as to why you waited until post #57 to admit you had a definition of christian all along. It appears that you are being dishonest with us as well as yourself. I think dishonesty would prevent you from falling under Thomas Jefferson's broad definition of christian.



No, not exactly.  It is not my definition, but one I believe has merit.  It is definetly not the accepted definition in these parts.  Besides my definition was not pertinent to the poll.


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## gemcgrew (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> No, not exactly.  It is not my definition, but one I believe has merit.


Merit is not the word you used. You said TJ was right and we are wrong. If he was right, then his definition must be accurate.


TheBishop said:


> It is definetly not the accepted definition in these parts.  Besides my definition was not pertinent to the poll.


Perhaps, but your unwillingness to be honest concerning your definition, speaks volumes.


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## Artfuldodger (May 19, 2012)

I'm surprised that we had over 700 views and only 23 votes. There was some debate as to defining a Christian but couldn't more people define a Christian or describe their on definition. Maybe they didn't know where the post was leading to so they didn't want to vote.


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## Artfuldodger (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I believe Thomas Jefferson was right and all of you are wrong.  He believed being a christian had nothing to do with what you believe, but how you portray yourself as a individual.   Living good, doing good, and treating others accordingly.  In that sense I could call myself a christian.



Part of being a Christian is to show that in your ways. Living as a Christian is far more important than acting as the Sadducee and the Pharisees. You could live as a Christian and still not be one though. In order to be a Christian you have to believe Jesus died for your sins.


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## TheBishop (May 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Merit is not the word you used. You said TJ was right and we are wrong. If he was right, then his definition must be accurate.
> 
> Perhaps, but your unwillingness to be honest concerning your definition, speaks volumes.



I am only now begining to arrive at this conclusion.  My honesty is sincere.  I literally woke up this morning thought about some the thing I've read over the last couple weeks and said "You know what, I think T.J. was right.  I could be a christian."  and it is still developing from there.  Your accusation are unwarranted.  

I can tell you one thing if being a christian means taking on some of the attitude displayed in this forum, I'd rather be labeled an athiest.


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## centerpin fan (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> He believed being a christian had nothing to do with what you believe ...



He was wrong.




TheBishop said:


> Living good, doing good, and treating others accordingly...



... are traits not exclusive to Christianity.  Maybe you're a Buddhist.


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## JB0704 (May 19, 2012)

I think Ronnie was onto something when he said he is not an expert on deciding who is and who isn't.  I agree.  It's not my job to seperate the groups and condemn one and claim the other.  I will gladly tell you what I believe, and let the rest be left to the one whos opinion ultimately matters.

That being said, here's my $0.02:

A "Christian" could be defined as a follower of Jesus.  One could accomplish this without believing in his deity.  In that sense, my answer would be "no."  

A "Chrisitan" could also be defined as one who believes the claims of his deity, and worships accordingly which would involve following Jesus and his teachings.  I fall under this category.  In that sense, my answer would be "yes."

The term itself is vague, and each individual has his or her own definition of it.  Witness the multiple different responses within this thread from "Christians."  Each believing they got it.


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## Artfuldodger (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I can tell you one thing if being a christian means taking on some of the attitude displayed in this forum, I'd rather be labeled an athiest.



The meek shall inherit the Earth. It's hard to live a meek and humble life when society & women want us to be macho.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> I believe Thomas Jefferson was right and all of you are wrong.  *He believed being a christian had nothing to do with what you believe,* but how you portray yourself as a individual.   Living good, doing good, and treating others accordingly.  In that sense I could call myself a christian. (I feel the term is unnecessary) Obviously most would disagree, and use the bible to villify me.  But I am not the one placing my faith in a book whos creation is embedded in aurthority and control.   The very reasoning T.J. was suspicious of the text and felt the true message of Jesus was lost.  Most of you in here won't trust our government (with good reason) but you trust the text formed by past governments, and ruling classes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would like to look into this. Any place in particular where I may find this. I'm a bit surprised


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## gemcgrew (May 19, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Your accusation are unwarranted.


Unwarranted only if you developed a definition between post #3 and #56 and had made it known to me. 


TheBishop said:


> I can tell you one thing if being a christian means taking on some of the attitude displayed in this forum, I'd rather be labeled an athiest.


I believe the atheist will hold you to a standard of accountability as well.


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## Artfuldodger (May 20, 2012)

The question in the poll ask about the divinity of Jesus. Would you consider this to be different than the deity of Jesus. Mary is considered divine by some but not God or a God.
Elijah might be considered divine but not deity. Many thought John the Baptist was Elijah.


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## gemcgrew (May 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Elijah might be considered divine but not deity. Many thought John the Baptist was Elijah.



And many thought Jesus was John the Baptist, or Elias, or Jeremias, or one of the prophets. (Matthew 16:13-20)


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> These verses should trump your verses:


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## atlashunter (May 20, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Scripture does not trump itself.....it only confirms and compliments.



That's right. Even when it doesn't.


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## fish hawk (May 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm surprised that we had over 700 views and only 23 votes. There was some debate as to defining a Christian but couldn't more people define a Christian or describe their on definition. Maybe they didn't know where the post was leading to so they didn't want to vote.



Or maybe it sounds so utterly ridiculous it doesn't merit a vote....that's why I didn't vote.


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## Artfuldodger (May 20, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Or maybe it sounds so utterly ridiculous it doesn't merit a vote....that's why I didn't vote.



Would you vote for or against Oneness being correct and the Trinity being wrong? Do you believe members of the Oneness  faith to be Christian?


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## fish hawk (May 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you vote for or against Oneness being correct and the Trinity being wrong?



I think you already know my answer.


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## fish hawk (May 20, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe members of the Oneness  faith to be Christian?



You also know I cant answer that.It's not up to me to say whether or not believers of the oneness faith or anyone else for that matter are Christians ...Thats between God and themselves.


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## Artfuldodger (May 20, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> You also know I cant answer that.It's not up to me to say whether or not believers of the oneness faith or anyone else for that matter are Christians ...Thats between God and themselves.



You did give the correct answer and that is how I would have answered it too. I don't believe in the Oneness belief but have family members who do. It would be very hard for me to label someone a non-Christian. I don't know what my fate will be tomorrow much less somebody elses fate.


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