# Church shopping is awful



## JB0704

.....everything that made me leave is still there.  

I was sitting in a pew in a "contemporary" Methodist church a few Sundays ago, listening to the techno music they play before the service starts, and I looked around and saw a lot of folks patiently waiting for the "music pastor" to come on stage and do his best Hillsong impression.  I couldn't help but wonder what I am missing.  What do all these folks see that I don't.  Because, for me, I fell dirty just being there....because it all seems so "canned."  Kind-of like "packaged Jesus for your viewing pleasure."

It occurred to me that what bothers me the most about church is the congregants' willingness to put up with things they don't like just to say they go to church.  I have a whole list of things that are incorrect with the modern church, and most folks do, but they overlook it all for some reason.

So, afterward, I asked my wife a few questions, and if any of you have ever pondered these thoughts, please chime in your conclusion....

"What have we accomplished by attending?"

"What are the positives and negatives, and do the positives outweigh the negatives?"

"If I compromise principle to attend (as in, put up with things I know are wrong), and I really being the leader I am supposed to be?"

I would appreciate input from y'all.


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## gemcgrew

Man, I feel your pain! When you visit these churches, walk up to the Pastor first thing and say, "Sir, I brought my family with me this morning so that we may see Jesus. Can you show him? And if you have to change this morning's message in any way to do so, please tell me, and I will take them fishing instead."

If he squirms, just go fishing. If he smiles with understanding, listen to his message.


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## Ronnie T

That's what modern 'church' is all about in some places.  I don't have any personal experience but I've heard it from other people.  In my town, I hear neighbors complaining because 'their' church is now doing this or that.

It's easy for church to be about the person sitting in the pew rather than about God in their hearts.  It can be a problem with any church that loses it's focus.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> I was sitting in a pew in a "contemporary" Methodist church a few Sundays ago, listening to the techno music they play before the service starts, and I looked around and saw a lot of folks patiently waiting for the "music pastor" to come on stage and do his best Hillsong impression.



What is Hillsong?


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## fish hawk

I attend church for the message......If I'm not getting anything from the message then I go to church to just say I went......The church I attend does not have a contemporary service,we sing songs from the hymnal and then there's a solo,that's it.I have been to a couple of churches that have contemporary services and the music is great,but couldn't that time be best used preaching God's word?I'm not bashing people that go to contemporary churches or services as the music is great and very uplifting but it's just not for me......Very few songs have brought tears to my eyes but theres been a bunch of sermons preached by my pastor that has caused me to shed a tear!!!


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> "What have we accomplished by attending?"



First things that come to mind:

1)  I have heard the word of God preached.

2)  I have taken Holy Communion.

3)  I have encouraged other Christians.

4)  I have supported the church financially.

5)  I have helped take care of the poor.


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## fish hawk

Also some folks dont want to be brought to conviction as in, I heard the message and i need to change this in my life.Some people just want the feel good sermons.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> What is Hillsong?



This:



In my previous church going life, I played (guitar) this song 100 x's in a band, until one day I realized it was "canned spirituality" and actually about the singer, not God, and accomplishes very little other than make the listener raise their hands to a catchy tune.

Seriously, watch the video....if you weren't a Christian, would you know what it is about?


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## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Man, I feel your pain! When you visit these churches, walk up to the Pastor first thing and say, "Sir, I brought my family with me this morning so that we may see Jesus. Can you show him? And if you have to change this morning's message in any way to do so, please tell me, and I will take them fishing instead."
> 
> If he squirms, just go fishing. If he smiles with understanding, listen to his message.


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## gemcgrew

fish hawk said:


> Also some folks dont want to be brought to conviction as in, I heard the message and i need to change this in my life.Some people just want the feel good sermons.



Well said.

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."(2 Timothy 4:2-4)


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## rjcruiser

I feel your pain....and that's why my family is where it is at today.  

Nope...the church I go to isn't the best...it doesn't have the stellar kids ministry...it doesn't have all the programs...it doesn't have great musicians....but....

I get solid expository preaching each and every Sunday.  Everyone knows everyone else and the fellowship is wonderful.  If there is a need that arises, it is taken care of by our group of believers.

At times, I get frustrated with the slowness of growth...but then, I remind myself of the drama I had to put up at prior churches.  I remind myself of the spiritual compromises....and I realize, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.



By the way, I used to dread the Saturday night conversations....so...where are we going to go to church tomorrow?

And then, on the way home, I always felt like I was being so negative and nit-picky....talking about how few times the pastor opened the Bible...or even referenced scripture.


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## JB0704

fish hawk said:


> I attend church for the message......If I'm not getting anything from the message then I go to church to just say I went......The church I attend does not have a contemporary service,we sing songs from the hymnal and then there's a solo,that's it.I have been to a couple of churches that have contemporary services and the music is great,but couldn't that time be best used preaching God's word?I'm not bashing people that go to contemporary churches or services as the music is great and very uplifting but it's just not for me......Very few songs have brought tears to my eyes but theres been a bunch of sermons preached by my pastor that has caused me to shed a tear!!!



Personally, the music is not much of an issue for me as long as it is sincere, and not "canned Jesus."

As far as sermons go, I have difficulty trusting people, particularly those in religious authority, so I tend to filter the sermon through that which I believe....stubborn, I know, but a stumbling block none-the-less.  

I appreciate your input.  I know a few preachers I trust, but one is in Charleston, SC, and the other is in Missouri. I would attend either church if I could find a way to move to either area. I have a real tough time giving a person the kind of trust required to "follow," if that makes any sense.  This is based on getting burned....many times.


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## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Seriously, watch the video....



I'm sorry, but I couldn't.  I stuck it out for a minute, though.  That was all I could handle.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> First things that come to mind:
> 
> 1)  I have heard the word of God preached.
> 
> 2)  I have taken Holy Communion.
> 
> 3)  I have encouraged other Christians.
> 
> 4)  I have supported the church financially.
> 
> 5)  I have helped take care of the poor.



Good input.  And I would like to believe all of those when I go to church as well.  Here is the problem (and I am not trying to be difficult, I am serious here as I am kind-of of "stuck" right now): I can, and do, accomplish 2-5 without a local church, and can accomplish #1 online.  Sounds awful, I know, but what I am thinking is that I have to wade through a sea of junk to accomplish these types of goals through church.

Which brings me to the last question.  If I am compromising principle to attend and accomplish these goals, am I really being the man I am supposed to be?  I am not being flippant here, and I know you have a good church, I am sincerely looking for input.


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## JB0704

centerpin fan said:


> I'm sorry, but I couldn't.  I stuck it out for a minute, though.  That was all I could handle.



Thanks for the effort.  Now, that is what every contemporary church I have ever attended is starting to look like.....thay are all trying to copy that look and style.


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## Huntinfool

I will be the first to admit that many (many...not all...not the majority) of the songs that are being written and sung today in what most call "contemporary" churches are focussed on the worshipper and not the worshipped...and that is wrong.  

It took me a long time to realize that and I think the same thing that bothered you bothers me still about those songs (even though I play some of them every Sunday).

If you're looking to re-hash the discussion from a few months ago about why you should or shouldn't go to church instead of staying home, I don't think you're going to find anything new in this thread.

I can't help but be struck by the "worshipper focus" that a lot of this thread has though.  Is there an irony there?

Not every church is going to be a "fit" for you guys.  No doubt about that.  But, if people are going to church looking to be filled up for the next 6 days, they are going to come away disappointed every single Sunday.

I have felt strongly for a good while now that it is my responsibility to make sure that my family is washed with the word every day and in our home.  I am the primarly discipler in their lives...not my head pastor.  It is not his job to make sure that my family is getting what they need spiritually...it is mine!

So why do I go to church with them?  Fellowship with the body.  Corporate worship with other believers.  Deep relationships with likeminded believers.  I'm sure there are other reasons that don't come to mind as quickly. 

I heard a sermon last summer when we were at campmeeting.  A young preacher in his mid-thirties was preaching and talking about "worship music" and how many Christians are so against it and all the problems with it.

His response was that, if you cannot worship God regardless of the style of music, then the problem is with you...not the music.  We should be able to worship God whether someone is doing their best self-agrandizing Hillsong impression or whether someone who is native Swahili is banging on bongo drums, dancing around and singing to God.  It is a heart matter.  If we are truly there to worship God, it does not matter what others are doing around us does it?


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## formula1

*Re:*

I attend a contemporary service every week.  The music itself fits my personal tastes yet it has nothing to do with why I attend.   Several reasons I attend:

1) I attend to worship my Lord and fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ as we are called to do.
2) I attend to hear the preaching and teaching of the Word and for my thoughts and my studies to be challenged. 
3) I attend with my family so that we may worship, learn and discern together.
4) I attend so that we may love others and serve others and help others grow their relationship with Christ and have ties to fellow believers in everyday life.
5) I attend because I know me, left to myself I become an island unto myself, ineffective as a follower of Christ.

JB,

With all due respect,  I'm looking for a biblical principle in which you determined the service was flawed or imperfect, but all I really see is personal dislikes.  Perhaps you should consider destroying your long list and asking God to show you where He wants you and what He wants for you and your family. I'm willing to bet it will have everything to do with this principle, showing Love and serving others.  You reap what you sow!


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## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I feel your pain....and that's why my family is where it is at today.
> 
> Nope...the church I go to isn't the best...it doesn't have the stellar kids ministry...it doesn't have all the programs...it doesn't have great musicians....but....
> 
> I get solid expository preaching each and every Sunday.  Everyone knows everyone else and the fellowship is wonderful.  If there is a need that arises, it is taken care of by our group of believers.
> 
> At times, I get frustrated with the slowness of growth...but then, I remind myself of the drama I had to put up at prior churches.  I remind myself of the spiritual compromises....and I realize, the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.
> 
> 
> 
> By the way, I used to dread the Saturday night conversations....so...where are we going to go to church tomorrow?
> 
> And then, on the way home, I always felt like I was being so negative and nit-picky....talking about how few times the pastor opened the Bible...or even referenced scripture.



Thanks RJ.  I fell the same way lately about being nit-picky.  My poor wife had to sit through 10 minutes of my junk while we waited for the service to start, and I felt really bad, but I was trying to get her to answer these questions.   I don't want to go to say I went.

There are a few local expository preachers.  And tht is what I would prefer....but no kids program, the wife doesn't like the music, the people are "cold," etc. etc.  It always seems there is something.

At what point are we doing a positive by going somehwere we don't want to be?

I love helping and serving, feeding the poor, being there for people.  Cooking large BBQ's is my "spiritual gift,"(look it up, it's in the bible  )but, I have discovered other avenues of scratching these itches and that has left the local church on the "outside" of my priorities....if that makes any sense.  It has become a chore to go somewhere to do these things that I have discovered how to do elsewhere.

Please don't think I am trying to be impossible here.  I am just trying to pull some nuggets of wisdom from y'all, and have gotten a few so far.  Thanks!


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## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> I will be the first to admit that many (many...not all...not the majority) of the songs that are being written and sung today in what most call "contemporary" churches are focussed on the worshipper and not the worshipped...and that is wrong.
> 
> It took me a long time to realize that and I think the same thing that bothered you bothers me still about those songs (even though I play some of them every Sunday).
> 
> If you're looking to re-hash the discussion from a few months ago about why you should or shouldn't go to church instead of staying home, I don't think you're going to find anything new in this thread.
> 
> I can't help but be struck by the "worshipper focus" that a lot of this thread has though.  Is there an irony there?
> 
> Not every church is going to be a "fit" for you guys.  No doubt about that.  But, if people are going to church looking to be filled up for the next 6 days, they are going to come away disappointed every single Sunday.
> 
> I have felt strongly for a good while now that it is my responsibility to make sure that my family is washed with the word every day and in our home.  I am the primarly discipler in their lives...not my head pastor.  It is not his job to make sure that my family is getting what they need spiritually...it is mine!
> 
> So why do I go to church with them?  Fellowship with the body.  Corporate worship with other believers.  Deep relationships with likeminded believers.  I'm sure there are other reasons that don't come to mind as quickly.



I'd agree with the above.  We are to be the primary spiritual leaders in our homes....and I don't think God approves of a homeschool approach to church either.




			
				huntinfool said:
			
		

> I heard a sermon last summer when we were at campmeeting.  A young preacher in his mid-thirties was preaching and talking about "worship music" and how many Christians are so against it and all the problems with it.
> 
> His response was that, if you cannot worship God regardless of the style of music, then the problem is with you...not the music.  We should be able to worship God whether someone is doing their best self-agrandizing Hillsong impression or whether someone who is native Swahili is banging on bongo drums, dancing around and singing to God.  It is a heart matter.  If we are truly there to worship God, it does not matter what others are doing around us does it?



eh....not sure I totally agree with that one.  Style is one thing, but lyrics are another.  So many contemporary songs are lyrically incorrect and weak.  There are a few hymns that are the same and I can't stand singing them either.


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## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Thanks RJ.  I fell the same way lately about being nit-picky.  My poor wife had to sit through 10 minutes of my junk while we waited for the service to start, and I felt really bad, but I was trying to get her to answer these questions.   I don't want to go to say I went.
> 
> There are a few local expository preachers.  And tht is what I would prefer....but no kids program, the wife doesn't like the music, the people are "cold," etc. etc.  It always seems there is something.
> 
> At what point are we doing a positive by going somehwere we don't want to be?
> 
> I love helping and serving, feeding the poor, being there for people.  Cooking large BBQ's is my "spiritual gift,"(look it up, it's in the bible  )but, I have discovered other avenues of scratching these itches and that has left the local church on the "outside" of my priorities....if that makes any sense.  It has become a chore to go somewhere to do these things that I have discovered how to do elsewhere.
> 
> Please don't think I am trying to be impossible here.  I am just trying to pull some nuggets of wisdom from y'all, and have gotten a few so far.  Thanks!



lol...you sound like me.  I talk things out, both good and bad...then feel better about it.  When I say too many negatives, it gets my wife down and she dwells on it a lot more than I do.  I can forget about it 5 minutes later and be fine....she has trouble doing that.


As far as kids programs...I understand that as well.  However, we get around that by having our kids be involved in other church's kids activities.  For instance, our kids are actually at a bible day camp that huntinfool's church puts on this week.  It allows them to have that interaction with other kids there age.

Just remember that they will learn from you more than they will ever pick up from some youth pastor.  They learn more from the kids they hang out with than the youth pastor too....so not having them in a "kids program" might not be the worst thing.


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## Huntinfool

> eh....not sure I totally agree with that one. Style is one thing, but lyrics are another. So many contemporary songs are lyrically incorrect and weak. There are a few hymns that are the same and I can't stand singing them either.



The point is that the music should not prevent you from being able to worship...not that the music is all strong or correct.



> Just remember that they will learn from you more than they will ever pick up from some youth pastor. They learn more from the kids they hang out with than the youth pastor too....so not having them in a "kids program" might not be the worst thing.



Very true statement right there.

My wife actually directs our kids program and I'm saying that.  One "model" that we may be moving to very soon is gathering a list of teams together.  At the head of the team is one strong couple (led by a godly man) who will lead two other couples.  One or two weeks a year, the three couples will be asked to lead the children's worship on Sunday.  That way, parents are involved in the discipleship of their children and, if they feel inadequate or don't know what to do...they will see it modeled every once in a while by someone who does know what to do and is already doing it in their home.


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## fish hawk

JB0704 said:


> Personally, the music is not much of an issue for me as long as it is sincere, and not "canned Jesus."
> 
> As far as sermons go, I have difficulty trusting people, particularly those in religious authority, so I tend to filter the sermon through that which I believe....stubborn, I know, but a stumbling block none-the-less.
> 
> I appreciate your input.  I know a few preachers I trust, but one is in Charleston, SC, and the other is in Missouri. I would attend either church if I could find a way to move to either area. I have a real tough time giving a person the kind of trust required to "follow," if that makes any sense.  This is based on getting burned....many times.



I understand.We had the same problem while looking for the right church home.Dont give up and keep trying,when you find it you will know,just make sure the pastor is preaching from the Bible.


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## Ronnie T

One of the major problems with so many christians not being satisfied is because they're seeing their very own churches change before their eyes.......  And they don't like the change.

This idea of "modernizing" the church is turning off a lot of dedicated Christians.

Making the church look, and sound, more like the world.

Did Jesus really want us to feel so comfortable and cozy with worldly influences?


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## Huntinfool

> For instance, our kids are actually at a bible day camp that huntinfool's church puts on this week.



Don't tell them that man!  Our cover will be blown!


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I will be the first to admit that many (many...not all...not the majority) of the songs that are being written and sung today in what most call "contemporary" churches are focussed on the worshipper and not the worshipped...and that is wrong.
> 
> It took me a long time to realize that and I think the same thing that bothered you bothers me still about those songs (even though I play some of them every Sunday).



Thanks for saying that.  Are we being "too principled" by being "principled?"




Huntinfool said:


> If you're looking to re-hash the discussion from a few months ago about why you should or shouldn't go to church instead of staying home, I don't think you're going to find anything new in this thread.



Nah, I am actually actively looking for a church, so I guess that is compromise that I have actually put a foot in the door.  I have asked similar questions before, but different in their own way.  Basically the three questions in the OP are the same three my wife and I are struggling through right now.



Huntinfool said:


> I can't help but be struck by the "worshipper focus" that a lot of this thread has though.  Is there an irony there?



Yes, a little.  But I openly admit that a major problem I have is people's unwillingness to deal with problems.  The congregation "looking the other way" when bad things happen.  



Huntinfool said:


> Not every church is going to be a "fit" for you guys.  No doubt about that.  But, if people are going to church looking to be filled up for the next 6 days, they are going to come away disappointed every single Sunday.



Agreed.



Huntinfool said:


> I have felt strongly for a good while now that it is my responsibility to make sure that my family is washed with the word every day and in our home.  I am the primarly discipler in their lives...not my head pastor.  It is not his job to make sure that my family is getting what they need spiritually...it is mine!



I agree that teaching the kids is the parent's responsibility, and often it is delegated to church, school, etc. 



Huntinfool said:


> So why do I go to church with them?  Fellowship with the body.  Corporate worship with other believers.  Deep relationships with likeminded believers.  I'm sure there are other reasons that don't come to mind as quickly.



And I do appreciate that aspect of it all. 



Huntinfool said:


> I heard a sermon last summer when we were at campmeeting.  A young preacher in his mid-thirties was preaching and talking about "worship music" and how many Christians are so against it and all the problems with it.
> 
> His response was that, if you cannot worship God regardless of the style of music, then the problem is with you...not the music.  We should be able to worship God whether someone is doing their best self-agrandizing Hillsong impression or whether someone who is native Swahili is banging on bongo drums, dancing around and singing to God.  It is a heart matter.  If we are truly there to worship God, it does not matter what others are doing around us does it?



But, "truly worshipping God" is defined on the individual level.  I played all the songs on the radio, closed my eyes during the appropriate parts, picked soft tunes during prayer....all the things a good "christian guitar player" is supposed to do.  For me (and this is an individual statement only), I feel like I worship God more when I give food to poor people.  The rest of that was because I love to play guitar, and the music can be catchy.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> One of the major problems with so many christians not being satisfied is because they're seeing their very own churches change before their eyes.......  And they don't like the change.
> 
> This idea of "modernizing" the church is turning off a lot of dedicated Christians.
> 
> Making the church look, and sound, more like the world.
> 
> Did Jesus really want to to feel so comfortable and cozy with worldly influences?



I couldn't agree more. I heard a preacher say once, you can offer them a hotdog to come in but the devils' gonna offer them a steak to stay out.

I've been without a church home for three years now.Visiting around has been good for me but it puts a stress on my wife as she's used to being settled.My problem is I haven't figured out what I am...other than born again. I like parts of the Presbyterian,parts of the Church of Christ, parts of the Holiness, but when it gets down to the core of salvation I agree with the Baptist'.  The saved by Grace Baptist' that is.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Don't tell them that man!  Our cover will be blown!



Come on man, everybody knows y'all are besties


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## JB0704

formula1 said:


> I attend a contemporary service every week.  The music itself fits my personal tastes yet it has nothing to do with why I attend.   Several reasons I attend:
> 
> 1) I attend to worship my Lord and fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ as we are called to do.
> 2) I attend to hear the preaching and teaching of the Word and for my thoughts and my studies to be challenged.
> 3) I attend with my family so that we may worship, learn and discern together.
> 4) I attend so that we may love others and serve others and help others grow their relationship with Christ and have ties to fellow believers in everyday life.
> 5) I attend because I know me, left to myself I become an island unto myself, ineffective as a follower of Christ.



And I appreciate that you feel that way.




formula1 said:


> JB,
> 
> With all due respect,  I'm looking for a biblical principle in which you determined the service was flawed or imperfect, but all I really see is personal dislikes.!



What part of the service was about God, and what part was for me?  Who am I serving by being there?  The personal dislikes are those that I established by being part of it all, and discovering how "me centered" it had all become.  I believe that your church is different, and am very envious of your contentment.



formula1 said:


> Perhaps you should consider destroying your long list and asking God to show you where He wants you and what He wants for you and your family. I'm willing to bet it will have everything to do with this principle, showing Love and serving others.  You reap what you sow!



I asked questions, and did not give a list of "must haves."  If you read through here, you will see that I said the music isn't the big deal, and I am looking for what God wants for me and my family.....thus question #3.

F1, I do believe I reap what I sow.  I think I tried very, very hard to "conform."   If you want a list of everything I have "sown," I will be more than happy to provide it.  I promise you, I gave a lot more of my time and effort to the last church I was part of than any member of the stafff did.....they got paid for it and refused to go "above and beyond" because that was "cheating their family."  Instead, they asked the congregation to give so much free time, and tithe, and effort, and weekends......apparently our families are not as important.  Give me a break.  A preacher should not ask a congregant to do whathe is unwilling to do.  I love giving and serving, and have a long history of doing so.   

 Where does my conviction against "me-centered" spirituality come from?  Where does my conviction against "pastor lead" churches come from?  I am looking for answers, and asking questions here.


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## rockman7

heres why you should go, even to the one with crappy music(long as the word is true)..... because there are those of us that "do" enjoy contemparary music(gemme that old religion bores me to tears).and most of ya'll prolly wouldn't find my company enjoyable anyhow.as a worship leader my job is to minister to the whole body so we do play all types of music and i suffer thru. but if you think about it out of the whole service..... the worship is the only part that benefits God. everything else is for our benefit.... better learn to praise Him dure'in a song you dislike....even if it sounds like a train wreck!! 

however..... i plan on being around ya'll for a eternity(get use to it....there will be butt heads in heaven). might as well start learning to fellowship with us now cause forever is a loooooong time!!!


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## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> heres why..... because there are those of us that "do" enjoy contemparary music(gemme that old religion bores me to tears).and most of ya'll prolly wouldn't find my company enjoyable anyhow.as a worship leader my job is to minister to the whole body so we do play all types of music and i suffer thru. but if you think about it out of the whole service..... the worship is the only part that benefits God. everything else is for our benefit.... better learn to praise Him dure'in a song you dislike....even if it sounds like a train wreck!!
> 
> however..... i plan on being around ya'll for a eternity(get use to it....there will be butt heads in heaven). might as well start learning to fellowship with us now cause forever is a loooooong time!!!



What question are you answering with the first sentence?  Who asked why?

And second, I have said twice on here that I don't care about the music, as long as it is sincere.  I just don't like singing about the singer, and if you pay attention to a lot of the contemporary stuff, it is about the singer (the one I linked above is a primary example). But, if we are playing for our enjoyment, couldn't we accomplish that anywhere?


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## rockman7

sorry.... i'm at work and should've add this.

if one chooses to stay at home its not up to me to tell you to find a church and go. there is some great stuff for you in home guys out there .

what i will say is that we were given "teachers, preacher, pastors and prophets" for a reason .....for the "perfecting of the saints". i personally need that....you may not. i disagree with prolly 25% of the time with my pastor. at times when we "talk" he sez "gee....your right". most of the time i say" gee.......i'm stoopid". i'm all about personally spiritual growth.... i can't be all i can be without experiencing all God has to offer(the bad makes me grow faster than the good ....but then....i'm a hardheaded and not at teachable as some)


----------



## Jeffriesw

JB0704 said:


> .....everything that made me leave is still there.
> 
> I was sitting in a pew in a "contemporary" Methodist church a few Sundays ago, listening to the techno music they play before the service starts, and I looked around and saw a lot of folks patiently waiting for the "music pastor" to come on stage and do his best Hillsong impression.  I couldn't help but wonder what I am missing.  What do all these folks see that I don't.  Because, for me, I fell dirty just being there....because it all seems so "canned."  Kind-of like "packaged Jesus for your viewing pleasure."
> 
> It occurred to me that what bothers me the most about church is the congregants' willingness to put up with things they don't like just to say they go to church.  I have a whole list of things that are incorrect with the modern church, and most folks do, but they overlook it all for some reason.
> 
> So, afterward, I asked my wife a few questions, and if any of you have ever pondered these thoughts, please chime in your conclusion....
> 
> "What have we accomplished by attending?"
> 
> Not Much
> 
> "What are the positives and negatives, and do the positives outweigh the negatives?"
> 
> If the church is as bad as you say. Vapid and shallow worship of God, not directed at Him, but man cenetered. No clear and faithful expounding and exegesis of Gods Word, but the preachers opinion on it, then I don't see alot of positives at all.
> 
> 
> "If I compromise principle to attend (as in, put up with things I know are wrong), and I really being the leader I am supposed to be?"
> 
> I think you already know the answer to this one.
> 
> 
> I would appreciate input from y'all.



Try to find a Church that is Faithful to the prinicples recaptured in the reformation (I am assuming you are a Protestant), a Church where the Word of God is faithfully expounded and exegeted weekly, where the sacrements are administered faithfully, where Gods Word is what drives the content, not the preferences of men.

it is a bit of a drive for you from Dallas, but try here:
http://chalcedon.org/


----------



## Jeffriesw

rockman7 said:


> the worship is the only part that benefits God. everything else is for our benefitQUOTE]
> 
> 
> I could not disagree more with this statement.


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> sorry.... i'm at work and should've add this.
> 
> if one chooses to stay at home its not up to me to tell you to find a church and go. there is some great stuff for you in home guys out there .
> 
> what i will say is that we were given "teachers, preacher, pastors and prophets" for a reason .....for the "perfecting of the saints". i personally need that....you may not. i disagree with prolly 25% of the time with my pastor. at times when we "talk" he sez "gee....your right". most of the time i say" gee.......i'm stoopid". i'm all about personally spiritual growth.... i can't be all i can be without experiencing all God has to offer(the bad makes me grow faster than the good ....but then....i'm a hardheaded and not at teachable as some)




I was a "no church" guy for many years, still kind-of am.  Just trying to keep the Mrs happy by visiting.  I like the idea of my kids having a "church home" where they make life-long friendships with other kids.  I like the idea of having a "church family" that I can serve and worship with.  My problem was, and is, that I have difficulty answering a few tough questions before I make such a commitment.

I admire guys like F1, who seem to approach it all from a very positive perspective. It would be a lot easier if I did.


----------



## JB0704

Swamp Runner said:


> Try to find a Church that is Faithful to the prinicples recaptured in the reformation (I am assuming you are a Protestant), a Church where the Word of God is faithfully expounded and exegeted weekly, where the sacrements are administered faithfully, where Gods Word is what drives the content, not the preferences of men.
> 
> it is a bit of a drive for you from Buford, but try here:
> http://chalcedon.org/



Your 3rd response in red is correct, but it seems that everybody insists on "loving the church and all it's warts."  I know many issues are preference (like music for the most part) but other things (like a congregation not caring if the Church is being run Biblically) are foundational.  I have difficulty even saying I am in church if the group I am sitting with cares more about how entertained they are than whether or not they are accomplishing the original intent of the Church.

When I read the NT, I see that the church was less for "me" specifically, and more for "us" communally.  It is a body to grow with, help, reach out to others, and serve.  There is a specific structure laid out which should be followed.....otherwise, we are simply following men and not God.

As far as the church you mentioned goes, I appreciate it, Buford may be too much of a hike, but I still have a few local Presbyterian churches which I intend to visit, perhaps they are similar.  I read the "about us" link, and it seems the leadership structure of that church is very close to what I believe the Bible mandates, and for me at least, such a structure is essential.


----------



## Huntinfool

> rockman7 said:
> 
> 
> 
> the worship is the only part that benefits God. everything else is for our benefitQUOTE]
> 
> 
> I could not disagree more with this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You and me both buddy.
> 
> I think I get what he was trying to say.  But I don't think it came out right.
> 
> 
> JB, I actually get what you're saying about the music (even though I know it's not a huge deal to you).
> 
> When our church first started, we had what most would consider a "kick behind" band.  I mean, all-star caliber girl at lead singer....the leader was one of the most well known musician from the most well known musical family in our county...and on and on.
> 
> You get the point.  VERY talented group of folks playing the music on stage.  I mean VERY talented.  They would have rivaled many of the mega-churches that pay musicians.
> 
> Don't want to get into the details.  But the group literally fell apart because of people who were not in it for the right reasons and it devasted the church for a while.
> 
> Now we have a very much less talented group of folks (though still very good I think) singing very similar songs...but they are all in it for the right reasons and it shows.
> 
> Same songs...different focus...world of difference.
> 
> I think that probably translates to the pastor and other leadership as well in many churches.  But JB, you keep saying you have a hard time trusting anyone with spiritual authority.  It's going to be tough to get into a church without being able to do that.
> 
> It doesn't happen over night.  Nobody is trustworthy if you've just met them.  At some point, if you're going to be in a church body, you're going to have to open yourself up to the possibility of being hurt...so that you can also open yourself up to the possibility of finding leadership that is trustworthy.  Otherwise, you're right...you're just doing this to make the wife happy and that's not helping anybody.
Click to expand...


----------



## rockman7

JB0704 said:


> What question are you answering with the first sentence?  Who asked why?
> 
> And second, I have said twice on here that I don't care about the music, as long as it is sincere.  I just don't like singing about the singer, and if you pay attention to a lot of the contemporary stuff, it is about the singer (the one I linked above is a primary example). But, if we are playing for our enjoyment, couldn't we accomplish that anywhere?



sorry.... try'in to multi task!

i was adressing those that dislike "modern" music i guess.yes i will agree ....some modern stuff inhales. i first choose a song based on one simple fact ..."does it glorify and honor God".

second....yes... by all means worship Him by yourself. even in a corporate environment your still basically doin your own thing. but to say it was never meant to be corporate would mean that you have to overlook too much scripture.

in job you find the angels "attending" group church with God when satan walks in not once but twice. israel was told to do the same. we're told to "assemble" ourselves.

if your lookin for a "perfect" church forget it....aint gunna happen till the King returns and then who sez your gunna enjoy every aspect of that? cause your made perfect? i seem to remember something bout a "perfect" worship leader who thought different.

if i sound "preachy" i appoligize.....not my intent!! not goin to church is not gunna keep you from your reward....imho its not a sin. but it might just teach people like myself how to walk under authority even when we disagree with it


----------



## rockman7

Huntinfool said:


> You and me both buddy.
> 
> I think I get what he was trying to say.  But I don't think it came out right.
> 
> 
> JB, I actually get what you're saying about the music (even though I know it's not a huge deal to you).
> 
> When our church first started, we had what most would consider a "kick behind" band.  I mean, all-star caliber girl at lead singer....the leader was one of the most well known musician from the most well known musical family in our county...and on and on.
> 
> You get the point.  VERY talented group of folks playing the music on stage.  I mean VERY talented.  They would have rivaled many of the mega-churches that pay musicians.
> 
> Don't want to get into the details.  But the group literally fell apart because of people who were not in it for the right reasons and it devasted the church for a while.
> 
> Now we have a very much less talented group of folks (though still very good I think) singing very similar songs...but they are all in it for the right reasons and it shows.
> 
> Same songs...different focus...world of difference.
> 
> I think that probably translates to the pastor and other leadership as well in many churches.  But JB, you keep saying you have a hard time trusting anyone with spiritual authority.  It's going to be tough to get into a church without being able to do that.
> 
> It doesn't happen over night.  Nobody is trustworthy if you've just met them.  At some point, if you're going to be in a church body, you're going to have to open yourself up to the possibility of being hurt...so that you can also open yourself up to the possibility of finding leadership that is trustworthy.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> +1 ty for the words.... i kin knot spek so guit at timz
> 
> oh...shoot fyi mr.jb in dallas you know any tibbets, rakestraws, or corley's.... i can hook you up with some fantastic musicians if your into the older gospel, blue grass, ect.. my great uncle was the pastor of narroway baptists
Click to expand...


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

JB:

I appreciate your honesty, I really do!   We've talked about this before and I'm just making my best effort to get you to re-think some things. And I do apologize if my words offend you in any way.

The song you link is one that I have heard many times and I can't understand how you can possibly say it's about the singer. This song is all about personal worship of a believer back to God.  Either worship is a personal statement back to God or it is not.  I've read the words, I've sang the words, I've prayed many of those words. This I don't understand, but it does grant me insight into your thoughts a little.  You asked the question, Would you know what this song is about if you weren't a Christian?  Probably not, I'll give you that.  Would you have any clue how to worship God if you weren't a Christian?  How would you relate to Him in worship? A personal song where you relate to your heavenly Father is just a part of worship, not the whole, but it is a part!

Your question: What part of the service was about God, and what part was for me? Who am I serving by being there? This question of yours I'll answer this way, it's all about God and the person sitting next to me or across the aisle or in the congregation. Or in the back room bible study learning, praying for one another, and helping each other to overcome. It is never about me!

Don't keep trying to 'conform' as you put it.  Keep trying to serve others as that is what Jesus would want for you in the way you feel most effective for Him. You should be a valuable part of the Body of Christ and your part 'not' served will be a loss to the church and to yourself and family. What pastor's and others think for that matter is irrelevant, IMHO.  What God thinks is all that matters in eternity and all that should matter now!

My church is far from perfect as are all churches. We are made up of a messed up bunch of flesh redeemed to God by Christ Jesus, struggling to find the Spirit of God and walk with Him. But we are seeking and we will find and that's God's promise!  I hope you will find what you are searching for, you know I do, and I believe you will!

God Bless!


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> oh...shoot fyi mr.jb in dallas you know any tibbets, rakestraws, or corley's.... i can hook you up with some fantastic musicians if your into the older gospel, blue grass, ect.. my great uncle was the pastor of narroway baptists



Growing up in Dallas I knew several Rakestraws, Tibbets, and Corleys.....not sure if they were the same ones you knew because there were so many running around these parts.

Most of what I played was contemporary, but I just enjoy playing, I was given an old banjo and am realy wanting to learn it also.  When I left church, I put up my guitar for a while because I was also very busy coaching little league, working full time, and I was also going to school full time back then.  I just pulled one of the old guitars out the other day bc my daughter asked me to sing her a song.....and I can't say no to that.  Not so sure I have time these days to get with other musicians, my boy is in three sports right now and my daughter is in two, so life is non-stop for us.  But it was a very kind offer, and I do appreciate it.


----------



## Jeffriesw

JB0704 said:


> Your 3rd response in red is correct, but it seems that everybody insists on "loving the church and all it's warts."  I know many issues are preference (like music for the most part) but other things (like a congregation not caring if the Church is being run Biblically) are foundational.  I have difficulty even saying I am in church if the group I am sitting with cares more about how entertained they are than whether or not they are accomplishing the original intent of the Church.
> 
> When I read the NT, I see that the church was less for "me" specifically, and more for "us" communally.  It is a body to grow with, help, reach out to others, and serve.  There is a specific structure laid out which should be followed.....otherwise, we are simply following men and not God.
> 
> As far as the church you mentioned goes, I appreciate it, Buford may be too much of a hike, but I still have a few local Presbyterian churches which I intend to visit, perhaps they are similar.  I read the "about us" link, and it seems the leadership structure of that church is very close to what I believe the Bible mandates, and for me at least, such a structure is essential.



I was in the same boat as you about 2 +/- years ago.


----------



## JB0704

Thanks F1.  I was a bit taken back by the "reap what you sow" comment.  It's not that I blame anybody for thinking I am a "complainer," because based on y'alls knowledge of me, I am.  However, I know what I put into it all, and I really gave most of my free time to ministry for years, and it seems what I "sowed" got me here, where I no longer trust anybody in Church authority, and I am suspicious of congregant's motivations (though other folk's motives are really none of my business). I do appreciate your follow up.




formula1 said:


> The song you link is one that I have heard many times and I can't understand how you can possibly say it's about the singer. This song is all about personal worship of a believer back to God.  Either worship is a personal statement back to God or it is not.  I've read the words, I've sang the words, I've prayed many of those words. This I don't understand, but it does grant me insight into your thoughts a little.



We may need to agree to disagree on the song. What gets to me about it is the "cry of my heart" refrain, and honestly most of the song, seems a bit "self congratulatory" on one's own worship practice. Also, in the video, there is a HUGE "Hillsong United" banner.  I often wonder what they are advertising by posting it on youtube. There are no crosses, no "Jesus" advertisements.  That being said, I hope you continue to enjoy it and worship with it as before.  I just wanted to clarify my thoughts and why that song bugs me.



formula1 said:


> Your question: What part of the service was about God, and what part was for me? Who am I serving by being there? This question of yours I'll answer this way, it's all about God and the person sitting next to me or across the aisle or in the congregation. Or in the back room bible study learning, praying for one another, and helping each other to overcome. It is never about me!



The community aspect is what I miss the most.  I still have a large group of Christian friends that are always being there for each other in the same manner most church people are.  It's not "church" in the traditional sense, I know.



formula1 said:


> You should be a valuable part of the Body of Christ and your part 'not' served will be a loss to the church and to yourself and family. What pastor's and others think for that matter is irrelevant, IMHO.



This is another point of difficulty for me.  It seems the Bible is very clear that no part of the body is more important than any other part.  However, I have seen a trend to minimize the role of congregants to service and giving, where they must "accept" the way things are or move on to another church.  How is that family?  I get that you don't need goobers causing trouble in church, but most families ahve their "black sheep" and love them anyway.  I feel as if in a Church, I am only wanted to the extent I can give.  I visited a church not too long ago which had a congregation of about 200 people.  My wife and I, after several visits, asked the pastor if he would mind having a private conversation with us because we wanted to get to know him a bit better.  He said "sure."  Never heard from him......because we don't matter.




formula1 said:


> What God thinks is all that matters in eternity and all that should matter now!



Agreed.




formula1 said:


> My church is far from perfect as are all churches. We are made up of a messed up bunch of flesh redeemed to God by Christ Jesus, struggling to find the Spirit of God and walk with Him. But we are seeking and we will find and that's God's promise!  I hope you will find what you are searching for, you know I do, and I believe you will!
> 
> God Bless!



Thanks, F1.  I do appreciate it.


----------



## rockman7

JB0704 said:


> Growing up in Dallas I knew several Rakestraws, Tibbets, and Corleys.....not sure if they were the same ones you knew because there were so many running around these parts.
> 
> Most of what I played was contemporary, but I just enjoy playing, I was given an old banjo and am realy wanting to learn it also.  When I left church, I put up my guitar for a while because I was also very busy coaching little league, working full time, and I was also going to school full time back then.  I just pulled one of the old guitars out the other day bc my daughter asked me to sing her a song.....and I can't say no to that.  Not so sure I have time these days to get with other musicians, my boy is in three sports right now and my daughter is in two, so life is non-stop for us.  But it was a very kind offer, and I do appreciate it.



lol....don't shoot... im'a tibbetts. if you know one of us you know us all(lotsa inbreeding goin on round these parts)


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> lol....don't shoot... im'a tibbetts. if you know one of us you know us all(lotsa inbreeding goin on round these parts)





My best friend in high school dated a Tibbets girl, and her Momma worked in the lunch room.  Good folks from what I remember.  I have no hard feelings towards that clan


----------



## Ronnie T

Sometimes a congregation can begin to worship itself rather than God.

Our group worship times need to be centered on God. If the congregation makes itself a higher priority than God; if it is more important for them to please themselves than to please God, then their priorities are upside down and their worship isn't sound. 

Have we assembled a church, or group therapy for people who need things done especially for them? Nothing wrong with group therapy, but it's wrong to try and pass it off as church.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> JB, I actually get what you're saying about the music (even though I know it's not a huge deal to you).
> 
> When our church first started, we had what most would consider a "kick behind" band.  I mean, all-star caliber girl at lead singer....the leader was one of the most well known musician from the most well known musical family in our county...and on and on.
> 
> You get the point.  VERY talented group of folks playing the music on stage.  I mean VERY talented.  They would have rivaled many of the mega-churches that pay musicians.
> 
> Don't want to get into the details.  But the group literally fell apart because of people who were not in it for the right reasons and it devasted the church for a while.
> 
> Now we have a very much less talented group of folks (though still very good I think) singing very similar songs...but they are all in it for the right reasons and it shows.
> 
> Same songs...different focus...world of difference.
> 
> I think that probably translates to the pastor and other leadership as well in many churches.  But JB, you keep saying you have a hard time trusting anyone with spiritual authority.  It's going to be tough to get into a church without being able to do that.
> 
> It doesn't happen over night.  Nobody is trustworthy if you've just met them.  At some point, if you're going to be in a church body, you're going to have to open yourself up to the possibility of being hurt...so that you can also open yourself up to the possibility of finding leadership that is trustworthy.  Otherwise, you're right...you're just doing this to make the wife happy and that's not helping anybody.



Thanks for the input HF, that is an interesting story.  It's amazing how much things can change when motives are in the right place.

As far as trusting folks, I don't know what the answer is.  I am very frustrated with it all right now.  I was determined to never go to church again, for a long time.   Now that I am trying to get back in the door, I am finding that I am exactly where I was when I left three years ago.


----------



## Artfuldodger

From the Inside Out lyrics

A thousand times I've failed,
Still your mercy remains,
And should I stumble again,
Still I'm caught in your grace.

Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades.
Never ending, Your glory goes beyond all fame.
My heart and my soul, Lord I give you control.
Consume me from the inside out Lord.
Let justice and praise become my embrace,
To love You from the inside out.

Your will above all else, my purpose remains.
The art of losing myself in bringing you praise.

Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades.
Never ending, Your glory goes beyond all fame.
In my heart, in my soul, Lord I give you control.
Consume me from the inside out Lord.
Let justice and praise become my embrace,
To love You from the inside out.

Chorus 2x
Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades
Never ending, Your glory goes beyond all fame
And the cry of my heart is to bring You praise
From the inside out Lord, my soul cries out

What is it about the song ya'll don't like? The song is about Jesus not the worshiper. The younger generation doesn't like "How Great Thou Art" by Elvis.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I like the new stuff but this is more to my liking:


----------



## coonkilla

I know how you fell about this,this is kinda what kept me and my family out of church so long,I felt like the outsider in church, but we did find a good family church with a great kids program,I do see u are in dallas, I invite u and your family to spend a Sunday morning service with us,I may help in finding u a good church more your liking


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Hey JB, took that journey years ago. Did not see anything "real". Went on a search for something real. Everywhere I went was the same ole thing, just maybe in a different package. The goal is to get you to attend. Attendance is all I ever saw. Never anything else unless it was exploited to the tenth power. Made me question the motives of what little was done. Tired of seeing the church give a local guy who drove no more than 10 minutes to get there, $1500 to sing a few songs, yet, gave absolutly nothing to the hungry. I got to the point that I just could not take it any longer. My wife and I both said, let's stick it out for the kids sake. But after awhile, the robotic, repetive, going through the motions was doing more damage than good. My kids were bound to see this. I did not want them to think that those who had faith in God should be so dead. We see people go to football games and do a "wave", yet in church, we are so proper. I don't know how church became what it is. Sing a couple songs, hear a couple songs and then listen to some guy try to teach behavior change. And we call that "church". If I went to school all my life to learn to lay brick but never laid any brick because I was too busy with my schooling, That would sound insane. But that's what happens with church. I used to be right there. Sunday mornings and eve, monday nights, wensday night, everytime the doors were open. And sadly, looked down on those who were not. We are so busy "attending", listening to a preacher talk, it's insane. I actually began to fill guilty for giving money. As if I were convicted for supporting such a machine. It seems almost like a cancer, feeding on the body, feeding itself.  I hope you find a church home that blesses you, but I fear you are heading down the same path as myself.


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey JB, took that journey years ago. Did not see anything "real". Went on a search for something real. Everywhere I went was the same ole thing, just maybe in a different package. The goal is to get you to attend. Attendance is all I ever saw. Never anything else unless it was exploited to the tenth power. Made me question the motives of what little was done. Tired of seeing the church give a local guy who drove no more than 10 minutes to get there, $1500 to sing a few songs, yet, gave absolutly nothing to the hungry. I got to the point that I just could not take it any longer. My wife and I both said, let's stick it out for the kids sake. But after awhile, the robotic, repetive, going through the motions was doing more damage than good. My kids were bound to see this. I did not want them to think that those who had faith in God should be so dead. We see people go to football games and do a "wave", yet in church, we are so proper. I don't know how church became what it is. Sing a couple songs, hear a couple songs and then listen to some guy try to teach behavior change. And we call that "church". If I went to school all my life to learn to lay brick but never laid any brick because I was too busy with my schooling, That would sound insane. But that's what happens with church. I used to be right there. Sunday mornings and eve, monday nights, wensday night, everytime the doors were open. And sadly, looked down on those who were not. We are so busy "attending", listening to a preacher talk, it's insane. I actually began to fill guilty for giving money. As if I were convicted for supporting such a machine. It seems almost like a cancer, feeding on the body, feeding itself.  I hope you find a church home that blesses you, but I fear you are heading down the same path as myself.



You probably know that was my path too. The "wave" at a ballgame was what I was looking for to. I wanted to join a Church full of  Jesus fanatics equal to football fanatics.
The problem is when I find a Church full of Jesus Fanatics, is that they know the Bible real well and appear to be Holy, but only on Sunday.


----------



## Throwback

Ronnie T said:


> Sometimes a congregation can begin to worship itself rather than God.
> 
> Our group worship times need to be centered on God. If the congregation makes itself a higher priority than God; if it is more important for them to please themselves than to please God, then their priorities are upside down and their worship isn't sound.
> 
> Have we assembled a church, or group therapy for people who need things done especially for them? Nothing wrong with group therapy, but it's wrong to try and pass it off as church.




and this goes for churches that have a contemporary band, a piano or organ or just a capella singing. 



T


----------



## Throwback

JB0704 said:


> .....everything that made me leave is still there.
> 
> I was sitting in a pew in a "contemporary" Methodist church a few Sundays ago



There was your first problem right there. 



In seriousness, I HATE moving to a new town and looking for a new church. Here's you a suggestion, go to the church not necessarily in your sunday best and see how friendly they are to you.


----------



## gemcgrew

Throwback said:


> Here's you a suggestion, go to the church not necessarily in your sunday best and see how friendly they are to you.



And be the first one out the door after service. Light up a smoke and see how many folks try to bind you all up in legalism.


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> From the Inside Out lyrics
> 
> A thousand times I've failed,
> Still your mercy remains,
> And should I stumble again,
> Still I'm caught in your grace.
> 
> Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades.
> Never ending, Your glory goes beyond all fame.
> My heart and my soul, Lord I give you control.
> Consume me from the inside out Lord.
> Let justice and praise become my embrace,
> To love You from the inside out.
> 
> Your will above all else, my purpose remains.
> The art of losing myself in bringing you praise.
> 
> Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades.
> Never ending, Your glory goes beyond all fame.
> 
> In my heart, in my soul, Lord I give you control.
> Consume me from the inside out Lord.
> Let justice and praise become my embrace,
> To love You from the inside out.
> 
> Chorus 2x
> Everlasting, Your light will shine when all else fades
> Never ending, Your glory goes beyond all fame
> And the cry of my heart is to bring You praise
> From the inside out Lord, my soul cries out
> 
> What is it about the song ya'll don't like? The song is about Jesus not the worshiper. The younger generation doesn't like "How Great Thou Art" by Elvis.



I highlighted the parts that bug me.  For one, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense when read, it switches from praising to telling what one is doing.  Seems to me to be full of hubris, and a bit of a "look how devoted I am," kind-of thing.  Understand, though, that I knew many, many Christian musicians who were on stage to be on stage, and it was about them.  Lot's of these folks avoided conversations with the audience after church, and assumed a post "above" it all.

Anyway, back to the song, It seems to be a love letter to one's own devotion.  That's how it hits me, anyway.  After playing it over and over and over for youth groups and church plants, one day it dawned on me that I was playing a song about myself.  And that really bothered me.

Get what you will from it, if you like it, and it works for you, then have at it.  I do not intend to steer anybody clear of it.


----------



## JB0704

coonkilla said:


> I know how you fell about this,this is kinda what kept me and my family out of church so long,I felt like the outsider in church, but we did find a good family church with a great kids program,I do see u are in dallas, I invite u and your family to spend a Sunday morning service with us,I may help in finding u a good church more your liking



Thanks, that's very kind, what church are we talking about?  You can shoot me a PM if you don't want to post it out here.


----------



## JB0704

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey JB, took that journey years ago. Did not see anything "real". Went on a search for something real. Everywhere I went was the same ole thing, just maybe in a different package. The goal is to get you to attend. Attendance is all I ever saw. Never anything else unless it was exploited to the tenth power. Made me question the motives of what little was done. Tired of seeing the church give a local guy who drove no more than 10 minutes to get there, $1500 to sing a few songs, yet, gave absolutly nothing to the hungry. I got to the point that I just could not take it any longer. My wife and I both said, let's stick it out for the kids sake. But after awhile, the robotic, repetive, going through the motions was doing more damage than good. My kids were bound to see this. I did not want them to think that those who had faith in God should be so dead. We see people go to football games and do a "wave", yet in church, we are so proper. I don't know how church became what it is. Sing a couple songs, hear a couple songs and then listen to some guy try to teach behavior change. And we call that "church". If I went to school all my life to learn to lay brick but never laid any brick because I was too busy with my schooling, That would sound insane. But that's what happens with church. I used to be right there. Sunday mornings and eve, monday nights, wensday night, everytime the doors were open. And sadly, looked down on those who were not. We are so busy "attending", listening to a preacher talk, it's insane. I actually began to fill guilty for giving money. As if I were convicted for supporting such a machine. It seems almost like a cancer, feeding on the body, feeding itself.  I hope you find a church home that blesses you, but I fear you are heading down the same path as myself.



There is so much here that I can agree with or relate to.  Primarily, the giving part.  Before I threw in the towel, I had gotten to the point where I absolutely hated writing checks to the church because I saw how much was wasted.  Over 50% of the budget went to salary, and the "un-cool" ministries were the first to get cut.  I saw certain ministries discarded because the people being ministered to did not "fit the mold" of what the church was looking for ..... 20-40 year old couples with children.  There is so much more than that, I could write a very long post about it that nobody would read.

Anyway, since I left the "local church" I absolutely love giving.  I enjoy helping and serving the needs that I find.  I no longer resent writing the checks, or giving the time.  I feel "released."  But, I am so torn between continuing my current "rebellion" against the system, or finding a place to take my family for the sake of having them in church.  Thus the thread here.


----------



## JB0704

Throwback said:


> Here's you a suggestion, go to the church not necessarily in your sunday best and see how friendly they are to you.





Throwback said:


> And be the first one out the door after service. Light up a smoke and see how many folks try to bind you all up in legalism.



Here's the quandry, I am typically very "anti-legalism," which would naturally steer me towards a "contemporary" style church where you can wear whatever you want.  The church that pushed me over the line was one where the pastor wore hawiian shirts every Sunday.  Unfortunately, many of the "contemporary" churches I have been to seem to toss out the structural mandates in the Bible, and just do whatever they like.  It becomes an exercise in personal entertainment rather than one of service to each other and the community.  That seems to keep folks there, because they can disregard the "rules," sit back, enjoy the show, then pat themselves on the back for being in a pew on Sunday morning.

I just can't be part of that anymore.

I am all about finding "freedom" in Christ, but not at the expense of disregarded the entire NT.


----------



## centerpin fan

JB0704 said:


> Good input.  And I would like to believe all of those when I go to church as well.  Here is the problem (and I am not trying to be difficult, I am serious here as I am kind-of of "stuck" right now): I can, and do, accomplish 2-5 without a local church, and can accomplish #1 online.  Sounds awful, I know, but what I am thinking is that I have to wade through a sea of junk to accomplish these types of goals through church.
> 
> Which brings me to the last question.  If I am compromising principle to attend and accomplish these goals, am I really being the man I am supposed to be?  I am not being flippant here, and I know you have a good church, I am sincerely looking for input.



I really don't have a quick, easy answer for you, but I know God wants you and your family in church.  One obstacle we have today is that we _so_ many choices:  different denominations, different worship styles, etc.  I'd just pick one and commit to it for six months.  Or maybe pick two or three and alternate Sundays.


----------



## rockman7

JB0704 said:


> Good input.  And I would like to believe all of those when I go to church as well.  Here is the problem (and I am not trying to be difficult, I am serious here as I am kind-of of "stuck" right now): I can, and do, accomplish 2-5 without a local church, and can accomplish #1 online.  Sounds awful, I know, but what I am thinking is that I have to wade through a sea of junk to accomplish these types of goals through church.
> 
> Which brings me to the last question.  If I am compromising principle to attend and accomplish these goals, am I really being the man I am supposed to be?  I am not being flippant here, and I know you have a good church, I am sincerely looking for input.



even in the early churches the "sea of junk" was already there. pauls letters to thesselonia were written cause some schmucks were preachin Jesus had already come back. there are other instances as well.Christ went so far as to tell one church in revelations He would get really mean if needed.

my question to you is "how do you know that that excursion thru the junk isn't part of the personal spiritual growth we seek?". and "are you allowing your (personal) principles to get in the way of that growth?"

i ask this 'cause everytime i look at how amazed Jesus was about roman soldiers faith i ask myself the same things. the soldier did what was told, gave orders and considered them as good as ceasars word.not starting a change of topic bout following unlawful orders here but i'm sure some of thier orders were not pleasant, some downright wrong(again i hope you get my drift).

you've already stated you "feel" you should be in a church. i'm just try'in to point out some things.

p.s. its not like i aint been thru the same thing either....i feel yer pain bro


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> my question to you is "how do you know that that excursion thru the junk isn't part of the personal spiritual growth we seek?".



Prayer, discernment.  I can only explain it like this:

While sitting in the church described in the OP, I noticed a very overweight, older gentleman sitting in a pew alone, staring at his feet while the techno music played before the service began.  Now, when I say techno music, I mean the stuff you hear played in clothes stores at malls.  Not the type of music you would imagine a very overweight old man listening to.  Now, this fella, who was staring at his feet, looked very out of place.  Almost like he had wandered into the wrong church. 

It dawned on me that I felt the way this man looked.  Out of place.  And that feeling is what started the conversation with my wife, which led to this thread.  So, you all can thank that elderly gentleman for this fantastic conversation should you ever cross paths 

So, my short answer is "it might be."  But I am also certain that I was supposed to leave when I did as well.



rockman7 said:


> and "are you allowing your (personal) principles to get in the way of that growth?"



What good are disregarded principles 



rockman7 said:


> i ask this 'cause everytime i look at how amazed Jesus was about roman soldiers faith i ask myself the same things. the soldier did what was told, gave orders and considered them as good as ceasars word.not starting a change of topic bout following unlawful orders here but i'm sure some of thier orders were not pleasant, some downright wrong(again i hope you get my drift).



I think I had a thread a while back called "hills to die for."  If you are interested, but I tried to discuss my difficulty finding the line between "principle" and "preference."  As far as your above comment, I can't really see a circumstance where we should allow God to be used for evil.  I just don't see the mandate when I read the Bible.

In fact, it seems we are instructed to stand up for principle.  Which is what I was doing when I bailed on the church.  Now, every time I walk through a church door, half of me feels as if I am failing myself and my family for being there, and the other half thinks I should give it "one more chance."  I dunno, man.  It stinks.



rockman7 said:


> p.s. its not like i aint been thru the same thing either....i feel yer pain bro



Thanks.  I know that I don't have it any worse than others have.  I guess I just blather on about it a bit more.


----------



## rockman7

i can see you kinda misunderstood me about somethings. thats ok...i inhales at typin (i'm better when on a particular topic and got my dooky together).

tell ya what.... lets just agree that God's gunna figger this one out for ya . that He's gunna open doors and slam the ones shut He aint got picked out for you and family.

just make sure when it happens you snap too and high step it thru


----------



## StriperAddict

JB0704 said:


> I know that I don't have it any worse than others have. I guess I just blather on about it a bit more.


 
Blather away!  Me 'n wife know this same drill, too.  
We concentrate on making fellowship connections that are real and pull us toward grace.  
Prayer, discernment is right on in any case.


----------



## JB0704

StriperAddict said:


> Blather away!  Me 'n wife know this same drill, too.
> We concentrate on making fellowship connections that are real and pull us toward grace.
> Prayer, discernment is right on in any case.



Thanks!  I am finding, through this board and PM's, that lot's of folks have been down this road.  Amazing that it can be such a difficult process.


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> i can see you kinda misunderstood me about somethings. thats ok...i inhales at typin (i'm better when on a particular topic and got my dooky together).



Apologies.  If you would like to clarify where I missed it, I will be more than happy to continue the discussion 



rockman7 said:


> tell ya what.... lets just agree that God's gunna figger this one out for ya . that He's gunna open doors and slam the ones shut He aint got picked out for you and family.
> 
> just make sure when it happens you snap too and high step it thru



I agree with this sentiment, and will be sure to do so......but.....(and here is where it get's all tricky) how do I know that I'm not "snapped too and high steppin'" already.  Which is to ask, what if I was right to bail 3 years ago, and the church really doesn't have a place for me right now?

What if God turned my gaze towards that elderly gentleman so that I would know I was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

These are not really answerable, it seems.  I do not really see a solid Biblical mandate for "local church" attendance, but I do see a mandate for being a member of "the church," which can be accomplished outside the "local church."  But, that is another rabbit all together, which has been run a bunch on this board.

And this is all why I ask these questions, you guys have given some good feedback, and got me pondering in different directions.


----------



## rockman7

no need to explain any further . i'll just give you my personal "selfish" reasons why i think you need to be in a church.

as others have posted i've been around a few "premadonna"(sp) musicians .i'd rather eat dirt an die than play with this type. was on a small record lable with my son and a couple other worship leaders. i think you can still go to www.myspace.com/cyhm07 and they still got one of our originals if you want a laugh "shout it out".

but now i'm at my church and my "talent" consists of a pocket drummer (not bad but limited), a 15 yo guitarists(only been play'in for 2 years...but he's learning. would move him to bass but he wants to shred!lol), and a keyboardists thats been playin only 1 year(i've been teachin her and i don't play keyboads....ack!!). my son(the lead on that song is po'd at God right now and isn't in church).this is prolly the least musically talented church i ever been in....they can't even all clap together.in other words i'm limited on what we can do.

but these guys have a heart for God and worship and i wouldn't trade them for nobody. but i still wanna pull wot hair i have out after 2 hours of practise.

what churches need more than anything(musically) is people with talent ...second! and hearts for God (like you)first and foremost.you know yourself a preacher can preach till thier blue but put it to music and people will pat thier foot and at least "mouth" the words.from there thier own thier own. i did my job!!

that bein said...just make sure you pass that talent onto yer young'uns.....let them grow up to have this problem!! roflol!!


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> that bein said...just make sure you pass that talent onto yer young'uns.....let them grow up to have this problem!! roflol!!



I don't know that I was ever "talented," but what I lacked in ability I made up with enthusiasm!  My son has zero musical ability or interest....so I may end up having to teach my daughter the guitar, she seems fascinated with it.   

But, to be honest, I would much rather listen to an untalented band that is doing it for the right reasons than to suffer through some fool onstage impressing himself every Sunday.


----------



## Huntinfool

> What good are disregarded principles



Sometimes principles are a euphimism for pride.  Not saying that's the case with you.  But it's always a good check to make sure that what you're calling a principle is in direct agreement with scripture and with what God is leading you to do through spending time with him.

I've stood up for a lot of "principles" in my life...many times my pride was too big for me to see the truth.



What does kind of get me about the whole thing is how "dirty" you seem to feel when you walk into any church.  There are definitely some that should make you feel that way.  But you can't seem to see any good at all and that is concerning.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Sometimes principles are a euphimism for pride.  Not saying that's the case with you.  But it's always a good check to make sure that what you're calling a principle is in direct agreement with scripture and with what God is leading you to do through spending time with him.
> 
> I've stood up for a lot of "principles" in my life...many times my pride was too big for me to see the truth..



Excellent point, and one I will consider 



Huntinfool said:


> What does kind of get me about the whole thing is how "dirty" you seem to feel when you walk into any church.  There are definitely some that should make you feel that way.  But you can't seem to see any good at all and that is concerning.



I see the good happenning.  I have mentioned a few times how I am envious of folks like yourself, and F1, who have found a good church "home."

For me, I feel "dirty" because I am supporting something I don't support....if that makes any sense.  I know so many people who disagree with so much of what happens at church, yet they still sit there quietly and support it.  I feel complicit in this when I support the "bad."  I just got to the point where I felt equally guilty every time a good person was hurt in the name of God because as long as I was part of that local "body," I was supporting the actions of that body.....and that felt dirty.

As far as the situation in the OP, it is a little different, but I know so much of the contemporary culture, and the marketing behind why churches do what they do, and why they market in such a way, that I feel guilty for supporting that.

A good example is a church having a push to recruit married couples with kids.....they do this because those are folks who tend to stay for a long time because they don't want to uproot the kids.  The same church (and I am using this because I have seen it) will openly say they are not really a church for middle aged divorcees, and those folks need to "plug in" on their own without any extra effort from the church.  I struggle with targeted marketing because I feel the gospel is everybody's and the message is not really mine to control, if that makes any sense.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> As far as the situation in the OP, it is a little different, but I know so much of the contemporary culture, and the marketing behind why churches do what they do, and why they market in such a way, that I feel guilty for supporting that.



JB, when I see the word contemporary in association with churches, I kiss them goodbye. You will not find sound doctrine in such a place. Messages will be presented in such a manner as not to offend the goats. Truth is compromised in order to be acceptable to the unregenerate.

Find a church where the pastor proclaims truth, in such a way, as to leave no doubt in his message.


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## hobbs27

Ive been visiting for awhile too.The worst showcase I've seen is a church that had two women dancers that were dressed in what appeared to be belly dancer clothes only no belly exposed.They were pointed at by the praise team leader to get up and dance during a certain song and they went up to the front and danced very provocative.It was strange with the lights in the place already dimmed I felt like I was at a bachelor party instead of a meeting.

I'm sure God has a church home waiting for my family and all you that are looking. I just got to get some things out of the way so I can hear Him.

 I left my last home because of the politics in the church. It was established in 1990 and the only people that had a say in the place were those that were there when the walls went up, even though they hardly participated they would be at the business meetings to be sure things went the way their family wanted them to.

If you can't think of anything else to pray for pray for us that are looking for a home, and that we listen to His voice and follow His direction.My little experiment of trying different churches has bout run it's course.


----------



## Throwback

gemcgrew said:


> JB, when I see the word contemporary in association with churches, I kiss them goodbye. You will not find sound doctrine in such a place. Messages will be presented in such a manner as not to offend the goats. Truth is compromised in order to be acceptable to the unregenerate.
> 
> Find a church where the pastor proclaims truth, in such a way, as to leave no doubt in his message.



Since you immediately write off all contemporary churches just by their description, please tell me what one needs to look for to "know" a pastor proclaims the truth and leaves no doubt in his message. 

i'm going to go out on a limb here and say its the kind of church service that YOU enjoy and get something out of. 


T


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## 1gr8bldr

Don't get me wrong about church. No one was intentionally there to just attend. Everybody had a genuine desire to worship, fellowship and serve. It was just that nothing was being accomplished for the Kingdom. The fellowship was not there either. Speaking to Bob, Bill, Tom, Joe, "how are you today", is just not fellowship. When church is over and no one goes home but hangs around together till someone finially says, Well, let's go eat somewhere". That's real fellowship. But usually everyone goes straight to their cars. Met a lot of good people over the many years. Fine folks, sincere. Wanting to make a difference


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## barryl

Canaan BaptistChurch .org 5581 Salem rd. Covington,Ga. 30016 Independant, Fundamental,KJV 1611 AV Bible Believing Baptist Church !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We will treat you you so many ways, you are bound to like of them !!!!! Check our website


----------



## Ronnie T

I don't believe there's a group of Christians in this country that I cannot 'connect' with.  Give me a chance, I'll connect with them.
They won't have to do anything special for me to be able to worship God while I'm involved in singing a spiritual song.  And then I'll be looking forward to singing that next song.  I'll make my own worship, especially since I'm with other Christians, but not 'because' I'm with other Christian.

They can't make me worship......  But I'll enjoy worshiping with them.
And they'll know I was there, cause I might be the loudest singer there.  And I might need to say "amen" a few times during the prayer.
And I'll want to meet as many people as I can, before and after the service.  Meeting and touching other Christians is one of the great purposes of the Lord's church coming together.

As you leave that church parking lot I hope I've inspired you to continue worshipping God all day long.   I believe God works things like that out sometimes.

If I don't worship, it won't be your fault.  But I hope that during that time I might be able to share some of God with you.

*Ultimately, isn't that the way it's suppose to be?  I know we all have our likes and dislikes, but isn't that really the way it's suppose to be?


----------



## Ronnie T

barryl said:


> Canaan BaptistChurch .org 5581 Salem rd. Covington,Ga. 30016 Independant, Fundamental,KJV 1611 AV Bible Believing Baptist Church !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We will treat you you so many ways, you are bound to like of them !!!!! Check our website



Does that mean I can't teach using my New American Standard Bible?


----------



## fish hawk

Throwback said:


> please tell me what one needs to look for to "know" a pastor proclaims the truth and leaves no doubt in his message. When he preaches something or says something he uses scripture to back it up!!!
> 
> i'm going to go out on a limb here and say its the kind of church service that YOU enjoy and get something out of.
> 
> 
> T


----------



## fish hawk

hobbs27 said:


> If you can't think of anything else to pray for pray for us that are looking for a home, and that we listen to His voice and follow His direction.My little experiment of trying different churches has bout run it's course.



I'll be praying for yall hobbs!!!Hang in there.


----------



## Throwback

fish hawk said:


>



in the 1800's they used scripture to "back up" slavery. 

T


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## JB0704

Throwback said:


> in the 1800's they used scripture to "back up" slavery.
> 
> T



I have used that point in here a few times.  Folks can find what they want in scripture if they look hard enough.  

That also tends to contribute to my issues with leadership, often, I feel as if things are being twisted to fit a purpose.  A primary example is the way the concept of "unity" is often used to run-off folks who do not agree 100% with the head pastor.  Counter-productive to the concept, but folks still buy into it.


----------



## fish hawk

Throwback said:


> in the 1800's they used scripture to "back up" slavery.
> 
> T



Yea that was the 1800's.Try it now.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



Throwback said:


> Since you immediately write off all contemporary churches just by their description, please tell me what one needs to look for to "know" a pastor proclaims the truth and leaves no doubt in his message.
> 
> i'm going to go out on a limb here and say its the kind of church service that YOU enjoy and get something out of.
> 
> 
> T



Thanks, Throwback, for saying what I was thinking!


----------



## JB0704

Throwback said:


> Since you immediately write off all contemporary churches just by their description, please tell me what one needs to look for to "know" a pastor proclaims the truth and leaves no doubt in his message.
> 
> i'm going to go out on a limb here and say its the kind of church service that YOU enjoy and get something out of.
> 
> 
> T



Honestly, I am in my early 30's, and am pretty much anti-legalsim, so a "contemporary" church should fit me better.  The problem I have is not the appearance or the sound of the church, it is usually the inner-workings....how it is structured, the role of the congregation, the mindless videos before EVERY sermon meant to extract emotions from the audience, the "sermon series" which are usually intended to steer the congregation the direction the pastor wants (tithing series during a budget crisis for example), etc. that I have difficulty with in those type churches.

Everybody wants to call their church "home."  But every contemporary church I have been to has a policy that the congregation makes no decisions, the head pastor has the final say on everything, the elders are only there to "affirm" the head pastor, and anybody who disagrees with anything should leave.  I get that we should all get along, but discussing differences leads to positive change and growth.  Forcing folks out who see it differently doesn't feel like home to me.


----------



## Throwback

fish hawk said:


> Yea that was the 1800's.Try it now.



well, according to some folks the only songs we're supposed to sing came from the same time period. 


T


----------



## JB0704

I have posted this on the board before, but this video is a perfect summary of every contemporary church I have ever been to (and it was produced by a contemporary church.....Andy Stanley's, I think).  But the attitude, sound, production, t-shirts, everything are identical to my experience.....


----------



## Throwback

first we need to define "contemporary" because some folks think its one thing and then another person things another. 


T


----------



## JB0704

Throwback said:


> first we need to define "contemporary" because some folks think its one thing and then another person things another.
> 
> 
> T



See above video I just posted, that is what I think of when I think "contemporary" church.


----------



## fish hawk

Throwback said:


> well, according to some folks the only songs we're supposed to sing came from the same time period.
> 
> 
> T


Yea and some folks are scared to clap or say amen.....I dont know why your giving me a hard time all I said was when im listening to a sermon I just want the pastor to back up what he's sayin with scripture and all the sudden your talking about slavery......if I'm listening to a sermon about being a good father or parent I also want to here the verses he got his info from.....I truly believe that if a preacher is gonna preach he better be able back it up with scripture.


----------



## fish hawk

JB0704 said:


> See above video I just posted, that is what I think of when I think "contemporary" church.


Thats what i think of also!!!


----------



## gemcgrew

Throwback said:


> first we need to define "contemporary" because some folks think its one thing and then another person things another.



Modern


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Funny video, but has anyone ever thought of why Andy Stanley would put out a video that seems to disrespect  contemporary worship when his own churches are comtemporary by definition?

Do you know what kind of video you could make out of a traditional church in the same vein?  I could make a really good one if I had the resources.  But I'll spare you the content.

It really doesn't matter to God what your style or preference is, if Jesus Christ is not preached and God is not worshipped, and we do not love others as Christ loved us,we are still walking dead! And the dead will be walking with the dead, never knowing they were never alive until the day they stand before God and He says, I never knew you!

In short, all our efforts are worthless! But Christ in us turns the world upside down!


----------



## StriperAddict

formula1 said:


> In short, all our efforts are worthless! But Christ in us turns the world upside down!


 
No truer words were ever spoken on the board...


----------



## Huntinfool

gemcgrew said:


> JB, when I see the word contemporary in association with churches, I kiss them goodbye. You will not find sound doctrine in such a place. Messages will be presented in such a manner as not to offend the goats. Truth is compromised in order to be acceptable to the unregenerate.



I'm sorry man...that's just a plain untrue statement.  You will find just as many "traditional" churches that are dead as you will "contemporary".

It is not the "style" that is the problem in any church.  As you said, it's the committment to truth.


----------



## Huntinfool

formula1 said:


> Funny video, but has anyone ever thought of why Andy Stanley would put out a video that seems to disrespect  contemporary worship when his own churches are comtemporary by definition?
> 
> Do you know what kind of video you could make out of a traditional church in the same vein?  I could make a really good one if I had the resources.  But I'll spare you the content.
> 
> It really doesn't matter to God what your style or preference is, if Jesus Christ is not preached and God is not worshipped, and we do not love others as Christ loved us,we are still walking dead! And the dead will be walking with the dead, never knowing they were never alive until the day they stand before God and He says, I never knew you!
> 
> In short, all our efforts are worthless! But Christ in us turns the world upside down!



Very good post F1.

That video was hilarious...and true.  But he's right, we could make an even better one about every church that each of us attends.

JB is kind of illustrating the point here.  I personally know of many people who have been deeply fed and impacted by Andy Stanley and his church.  I also know people like JB who see nothing but a production.

It's not the church that is the problem here folks.  As I said, if you're depending on the church you attend to "fill you up" so you can survive the next six days, you're going to be looking for a VERY long time.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> Funny video, but has anyone ever thought of why Andy Stanley would put out a video that seems to disrespect  contemporary worship when his own churches are comtemporary by definition?



From what I understand, it was an attempt to get folks to think "outside the box," because so many churches have started conforming to the same mold.  And in many cases it is true.  I know a few contemporary pastors who were none too happy about it.



formula1 said:


> Do you know what kind of video you could make out of a traditional church in the same vein?  I could make a really good one if I had the resources.  But I'll spare you the content.



Absolutely!!  One big difference would be that traditional churches all seem to have their "own way" of doing things, and try hard not to conform to popular trends.  Not saying that is any better, it is just a difference.

You still have the three songs, offering, special music, sermon, invitation, exit pattern.



formula1 said:


> It really doesn't matter to God what your style or preference is, if Jesus Christ is not preached and God is not worshipped, and we do not love others as Christ loved us,we are still walking dead! And the dead will be walking with the dead, never knowing they were never alive until the day they stand before God and He says, I never knew you!
> 
> In short, all our efforts are worthless! But Christ in us turns the world upside down!



I absolutely agree!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> JB is kind of illustrating the point here.  I personally know of many people who have been deeply fed and impacted by Andy Stanley and his church.  I also know people like JB who see nothing but a production.



BINGO!!

My favorite part of the video is the award labels at the end.....



Huntinfool said:


> It's not the church that is the problem here folks.  As I said, if you're depending on the church you attend to "fill you up" so you can survive the next six days, you're going to be looking for a VERY long time.



Agreed.  I am not really looking to get "filled."  I have no issues with style, though.  I hope I have communicated that.  All substance.

And, let me say it clearly, I am sure there are many very good contemporary churches out there, like F1's.   I am glad for folks who find a good "home."


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> I'm sorry man...that's just a plain untrue statement.  You will find just as many "traditional" churches that are dead as you will "contemporary".


We are in agreement. I was addressing contemporary as was JB. I think my statement would apply even more so for traditional.


----------



## gemcgrew

HF, do you know of a contemporary church where sound doctrine is? If so, share it with me. I will go visit and report back to you.


----------



## Huntinfool

Crosspointe Church

242 Byrd Rd
Oxford, GA

Elder led.  No one elder has veto over the others (including the head pastor), "contemporary" in terms of music, style and dress (if you can describe it that way).  Sound doctrine if you ask me.  

One of the funniest things to me is how many people come and go because "the pastor doesn't tell enough stories and there just isn't any 'life application' in every sermon".

If you stop by in July...say hi to the drummer.  I hear he's a heck of a guy.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Crosspointe Church
> 
> 242 Byrd Rd
> Oxford, GA
> 
> Elder led.  No one elder has veto over the others (including the head pastor), "contemporary" in terms of music, style and dress (if you can describe it that way).  Sound doctrine if you ask me.
> 
> One of the funniest things to me is how many people come and go because "the pastor doesn't tell enough stories and there just isn't any 'life application' in every sermon".
> 
> If you stop by in July...say hi to the drummer.  I hear he's a heck of a guy.



Does the drummer look like the mystery turkey hunter in your avatar?  Also, do y'all not have a website?  All I can find is a Christian schools site at that location.

On another note, there is an "elder led" contemporary church close to our home which seems to get it right as far as structure and message is concerned.  Mrs JB0704 didn't like it for a few reasons, so we quit visiting after 4 weeks.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Also, do y'all not have a website?  All I can find is a Christian schools site at that location.



http://www.thepointe.co/index.cfm

I think this is it. Might have to join to access. Not sure what they are hiding.


----------



## Huntinfool

There is a website...but I think there is a goober running it.  No idea why it doesn't show up in Google...I was just wondering the same thing!  

The Christian School that comes up is Providence.  It is a ministry of the church and is on the campus of the church.  It's a Classical Christian education.

I hear one of the board members is a heck of a guy too....just a rumor though.  He's probably a blowhard.


----------



## Huntinfool

gemcgrew said:


> http://www.thepointe.co/index.cfm
> 
> I think this is it. Might have to join to access. Not sure what they are hiding.



Note my comment about who is running it.  I have no idea.  Why would we try to hide all the pictures of the cute little snakes and instant faith healings?  


It's nice and pretty.  But I think the guy has been in the process of building it for like a year.  Gotta love a "core beliefs" page that is blank.  Classic contemporary church, right?  I guess we believe in nothing!

There are at least a few sermons on there gem....in case you don't want to travel.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I hear one of the board members is a heck of a guy too....just a rumor though.  He's probably a blowhard.



Probably so....  

My kid's school would never let me anywhere near the board.  Too much "heathen" in my blood.  They do, however, utilize my love of cooking BBQ to their advantage!


----------



## formula1

JB0704 said:


> And, let me say it clearly, I am sure there are many very good contemporary churches out there, like F1's.   I am glad for folks who find a good "home."



Just for the record, we have both contemporary and  traditional services.  So we are kinda both.  Admittedly, most find the contemporary a little more to their liking. Again, the bottom line is Christ is preached!  

You don't even have to come to our church to check it out.  Just get on our website and listen all you want.  

http://www.eagleslanding.org/


----------



## rjcruiser

Geez....crappy drummer...blowhard board member....this sounds like a guy I know.



j/k HF....

I will say, there are several jobs that are thankless in this world, but have an eternal reward.  Boardmember of a private christian school is one of them.  Elder of a Bible believing church is another.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Gotta love a "core beliefs" page that is blank.  Classic contemporary church, right?  I guess we believe in nothing!



I got a bit nervous for you when I noticed there was a "vision" link, but all is well.....it is blank too!!!

Home page looks nice, though.  I am sure the guy will get it up eventually.  I get very frustrated with my kid's school because they only have half of the available sports listed on the athletics page.....


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Geez....crappy drummer...blowhard board member....this sounds like a guy I know.
> 
> 
> 
> j/k HF....
> 
> I will say, there are several jobs that are thankless in this world, but have an eternal reward.  Boardmember of a private christian school is one of them.  Elder of a Bible believing church is another.



RJ, the school website is much nicer and informative. From this, can we assume that the school is the main focus?


----------



## Huntinfool

I suppose you can assume anything you want.  

RJ is fairly familiar with the school I think.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> Just for the record, we have both contemporary and  traditional services.  So we are kinda both.  Admittedly, most find the contemporary a little more to their liking. Again, the bottom line is Christ is preached!
> 
> You don't even have to come to our church to check it out.  Just get on our website and listen all you want.
> 
> http://www.eagleslanding.org/



Nice website.  I was doing some reading, and am interested in how they approach "unity."  Not trying to pick a fight or stir anything up here.  It seems as if the "non-essential" beliefs liberty is asking folks to keep disagreements to themselves.  Am I reading that correct?

Again, I am not picking at your church, just curious because I have had a few expereinces with how churches approach the concept.


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> RJ, the school website is much nicer and informative. From this, can we assume that the school is the main focus?



No...I wouldn't assume that.  I think the only safe thing to assume is that the school's website has more info than the church's.



Huntinfool said:


> I suppose you can assume anything you want.
> 
> RJ is fairly familiar with the school I think.





Just a little bit familiar...just sent my check in for the 2012/2013 school year.  Glad we only have two kids


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> Just a little bit familiar...just sent my check in for the 2012/2013 school year.  Glad we only have two kids



We home school using the ACE curriculum. I graduated under both the ACE and A Beka. What curriculum are ya'll using?


----------



## Huntinfool

They don't use one curriculum across the board.  It's a classical education.  We teach them how to learn.

Here's a great link to some info on why we use the classical approach.

http://www.theambrosegroup.org/images/DISCOVERING_THE_EDUCATION.pdf


Sorry JB...somehow we've gotten off topic.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> Nice website.  I was doing some reading, and am interested in how they approach "unity."  Not trying to pick a fight or stir anything up here.  It seems as if the "non-essential" beliefs liberty is asking folks to keep disagreements to themselves.  Am I reading that correct?
> 
> Again, I am not picking at your church, just curious because I have had a few expereinces with how churches approach the concept.



On the GON website, we disagree all the time, even among fellow Christians, about things that are non-essential to your walk with Christ.  But here we share our thoughts and opinions and mostly never really get anywhere, because each one is convinced that their reading of scripture it correct and it divides.  Having liberty amongst the bretheren about the non-essentials and freedom of thought about them actually creates unity.

Example:
Our pastor uses an ESV Study Bible because he likes it.  Yet he has never suggested we use the same, because he knows the truth of salvation in Christ can be found in many translations. I typically quote from it when I post scriptures, but I also use many other versions as well.  It's non-essential:  Use what you most enjoy, but live for Christ, which is the essential part of your faith that should be set in stone.

Do you know churches have split because of the color of the new carpet or the location of the piano?  Was either essential to the faith?

We ask all our folks to focus on what really matters and you'll see it on the website:

Love - Love God and others
Live - Live as Christ would have you live
Give - Give what you can of your talents and time
Go - Go and share Jesus with others.

Now I don't know about you, but I have some pretty strong opinions about a lot of spritual things, but if I examine myself, most of them are non-essential.  Why should I let that separate me from my brother?

I hope that helps!!!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Sorry JB...somehow we've gotten off topic.



It's all good


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> It's all good



Welcome to JB's chat room.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> On the GON website, we disagree all the time, even among fellow Christians, about things that are non-essential to your walk with Christ.  But here we share our thoughts and opinions and mostly never really get anywhere, because each one is convinced that their reading of scripture it correct and it divides.  Having liberty amongst the bretheren about the non-essentials and freedom of thought about them actually creates unity.
> 
> Example:
> Our pastor uses an ESV Study Bible because he likes it.  Yet he has never suggested we use the same, because he knows the truth of salvation in Christ can be found in many translations. I typically quote from it when I post scriptures, but I also use many other versions as well.  It's non-essential:  Use what you most enjoy, but live for Christ, which is the essential part of your faith that should be set in stone.
> 
> Do you know churches have split because of the color of the new carpet or the location of the piano?  Was either essential to the faith?
> 
> We ask all our folks to focus on what really matters and you'll see it on the website:
> 
> Love - Love God and others
> Live - Live as Christ would have you live
> Give - Give what you can of your talents and time
> Go - Go and share Jesus with others.
> 
> Now I don't know about you, but I have some pretty strong opinions about a lot of spritual things, but if I examine myself, most of them are non-essential.  Why should I let that separate me from my brother?
> 
> I hope that helps!!!



It does, for sure.  I have heard of churches splitting over the most ridiculous things.  Honestly, I think it is pride, and folks can't accept "losing" the debate.

And I agree that disagreements shouldn't seperate us, but also think that disagreements could strengthen us if we also practice the very real concept of humility.  That will never happen if the disagreement never occurs.  For instance, you and I may disagree, but ou ability to remain in fellowship through a disagreement could strengthen the fellowship.  If you tell me to leave your church because I disagree, such a stregth will never be realized....we will all suffer group think.

I am not saying that is your church, it is just a flag that gets raised when I see unity discussed.

I wasn't picking a fight, just looking for discussion.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Welcome to JB's chat room.





.....anything to take my mind off of the absolute disaster that was just exercised on us all from D.C.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> .....anything to take my mind off of the absolute disaster that was just exercised on us all from D.C.



seriously.  I'm in a bad mood now.....trying to show true contentment

I guess with Christ's help, I can be content in all things knowing that His perfect plan will happen no matter what the SCOTUS does.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> seriously.  I'm in a bad mood now.....trying to show true contentment
> 
> I guess with Christ's help, I can be content in all things knowing that His perfect plan will happen no matter what the SCOTUS does.



Your doing better than me.  I am considering joining the ranks of the anarchist kooks at this point......very angry.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Your doing better than me.  I am considering joining the ranks of the anarchist kooks at this point......very angry.



I didn't say I was being successful....trying...trying...trying.....

Put off....put on....put off....put on....


----------



## formula1

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> For instance, you and I may disagree, but ou ability to remain in fellowship through a disagreement could strengthen the fellowship.  If you tell me to leave your church because I disagree, such a stregth will never be realized....we will all suffer group QUOTE]
> 
> Discussion is good. And I know you are not attacking.
> 
> You can disagree with me all you want and I would never throw you off the 'bus'. But if you feel threatened by my opposing view, you just might leave our fellowship and not receive the blessing the God intended for you. I don't want that for you nor do I want my pride to alienate you.  I'd prefer to build you up in the faith, and I would ignore my opposing view if I thought it would drive you away. Speaking about non-essentials and realizing the polarizing effect it can have on some, well, it is a sign of humility and maturity in the faith to learn to lay them down. Some do it better than others!


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> You can disagree with me all you want and I would never throw you off the 'bus'. But if you feel threatened by my opposing view, you just might leave our fellowship and not receive the blessing the God intended for you. I don't want that for you nor do I want my pride to alienate you.  I'd prefer to build you up in the faith, and I would ignore my opposing view if I thought it would drive you away. Speaking about non-essentials and realizing the polarizing effect it can have on some, well, it is a sign of humility and maturity in the faith to learn to lay them down. Some do it better than others!



Ok.  Let's make it a bit more complicated, because this is an issue I consider at every church I visit (their approach to unity).  Let's say the Pastor makes a financial decision for the church that is considered unwise by many.  If there is no Biblical mandate either way, just discretion, does the congregant have a place to discuss such an opinion (in love and respect, of course).


----------



## Ronnie T

formula1 said:


> On the GON website, we disagree all the time, even among fellow Christians, about things that are non-essential to your walk with Christ.  But here we share our thoughts and opinions and mostly never really get anywhere, because each one is convinced that their reading of scripture it correct and it divides.  Having liberty amongst the bretheren about the non-essentials and freedom of thought about them actually creates unity.
> 
> Example:
> Our pastor uses an ESV Study Bible because he likes it.  Yet he has never suggested we use the same, because he knows the truth of salvation in Christ can be found in many translations. I typically quote from it when I post scriptures, but I also use many other versions as well.  It's non-essential:  Use what you most enjoy, but live for Christ, which is the essential part of your faith that should be set in stone.
> 
> Do you know churches have split because of the color of the new carpet or the location of the piano?  Was either essential to the faith?
> 
> We ask all our folks to focus on what really matters and you'll see it on the website:
> 
> Love - Love God and others
> Live - Live as Christ would have you live
> Give - Give what you can of your talents and time
> Go - Go and share Jesus with others.
> 
> Now I don't know about you, but I have some pretty strong opinions about a lot of spritual things, but if I examine myself, most of them are non-essential.  Why should I let that separate me from my brother?
> 
> I hope that helps!!!



I so much agree.
There is great unity found in each person being able to believe as they need to, and feel comfortable with it.  Most of the "opinions" that I discuss on this forum aren't even brought up at church.  They aren't that important.

The liberty you speak of creates a real unity.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  Let's make it a bit more complicated, because this is an issue I consider at every church I visit (their approach to unity).  Let's say the Pastor makes a financial decision for the church that is considered unwise by many.  If there is no Biblical mandate either way, just discretion, does the congregant have a place to discuss such an opinion (in love and respect, of course).



I don't think the Pastor should ever make a final "financial" decision.  

The elders have to make those decisions and it has to be unanimous.  Then, the congregation should submit to the leadership of the church.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I don't think the Pastor should ever make a final "financial" decision.
> 
> The elders have to make those decisions and it has to be unanimous.  Then, the congregation should submit to the leadership of the church.



I absolutely agree.  But I have seen many circumstances where the pastor is really the "final say" on everything.  The elders in these situations vote to affirm the pastor only.

So, from that point, submission to the church should happen only if the leadership is operating on Biblical standards......and there is the problem.  When they are not, you either leave, or work to change it.  In most cases, folks are not welcome to stay.


----------



## Ronnie T

I also believe there is clear biblical mandate for the entire congregation to be involved is some planning and decision making.
A pastor should never be hired, brought into a community church, then given control to make all decisions.  That isn't a church, that's a corporation.


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

Our financial board oversees the budget process and approves it and if approved it is brought to congregation for discussion and a final vote.  I really don't have a financial issue with our budget.  Much of it goes to mission work anyway!


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> Our financial board oversees the budget process and approves it and if approved it is brought to congregation for discussion and a final vote.  I really don't have a financial issue with our budget.  Much of it goes to mission work anyway!



I think it is great that the congregation voted on it.  Some are for that stuff, and some are against it.  If nothing else, it gives the congregant a sense of being "Part" of the body, and not just a spectator.


----------



## rjcruiser

That's where I have a tough time.

How much involvement should the congregation have in policy making and voting on other church matters.  Hard to see where that line should be drawn in the NT.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> That's where I have a tough time.
> 
> How much involvement should the congregation have in policy making and voting on other church matters.  Hard to see where that line should be drawn in the NT.



Agreed.  It is difficult.  I only know where I am comfortable based on my experiences, and that is with at least voting on major hiring and budget decisions based on elder recomendations.  The minutia can be handled ni the most efficient way possible....stuff like carpet color, stationary purchases, etc.

My reasoning is that this allows the congregant to "participate" in the functions of the body.  Also, the resources used are not the property of the leadership, but God, given as a collective resource for the whole.  I have serious reservations with leadership hiding the financial functions of the church in pie charts that are "discussed" but not dissected and voted on.  IMHO, a church's finances should be at least as transparent as a government's.


----------



## Huntinfool

> IMHO, a church's finances should be at least as transparent as a government's.



Why?


Obviously that's a loaded question.  But your question rings of entitlement when I hear it.

Elder led is about as close to biblical as I can find.  When you are a part of an elder led church, you have to get comfortable that they are godly men.  Once you do that, you trust their leadership and their decisions.  Incedentely, that takes time and requires actual relationships.

When I give money to my church, it's not mine anymore and I trust the elders to make good, prayer covered and spirit led decisions with it.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Why?
> 
> 
> Obviously that's a loaded question.  But your question rings of entitlement when I hear it.
> 
> Elder led is about as close to biblical as I can find.  When you are a part of an elder led church, you have to get comfortable that they are godly men.  Once you do that, you trust their leadership and their decisions.  Incedentely, that takes time and requires actual relationships.
> 
> When I give money to my church, it's not mine anymore and I trust the elders to make good, prayer covered and spirit led decisions with it.



The simple answer is "I don't trust people as much as you."  Right or wrong, that's where I am at.

Building relationships with the leadership is impossible in larger churches.  The leaders do not want a relationship because there is not enough of them to spread around, so they delegate to small group leaders for the relational aspect.  In order to assimilate into such a situation, you must surrender your discretion....which I refuse to do.

If I found a small church, where I knew the elders, and they were willing to go fishing with me from time to time, and come over to my house for some ribs, then I might be able to trust them.  Unfortunatley, I am seeing a lot of the relational aspect of church being delegated by the leaders to other people.


----------



## Huntinfool

Shouldn't how a church is structured be less based on "where I'm at" and more on "what's biblical"?

I get what you're sayin'....I'm just sayin'.

Go find that church you just described.  I have two of our elders over every Friday morning sitting at my kitchen table and studying the Word with me and a few others.

I just sent one an email a few minutes ago and got a response.

I serve on the school board with our head pastor (who is an elder) and have been to his home many times.  In fact there is one particular spot on a couch in his living room that I absolutely refuse to ever sit in again because it's where I sat when he very lovingly confronted me on something many years ago.  

I've shot skeet with one.  I've been fishing with one.  I've been dove and deer hunting with one...and I BBQ with them all the dern time.

There are lots of churches out there that fit the description you listed.  I can't figure out why you can't find them.  Either there are other reasons that are preventing you from seeing it or you are just the world's WORST church picker (and I mean that in a very joking way man...Where's that poke with a stick thingy)!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Shouldn't how a church is structured be less based on "where I'm at" and more on "what's biblical"?



Absolutely.  However, we were discussing comfort levels within the areas that are not clearly defined, such as congregational voting.  If we are talking leadership structure, for me, it has to be "by the book."  




Huntinfool said:


> There are lots of churches out there that fit the description you listed.  I can't figure out why you can't find them.  Either there are other reasons that are preventing you from seeing it or you are just the world's WORST church picker (and I mean that in a very joking way man...Where's that poke with a stick thingy)!



I told a story in here previously about an experience I had, while church shopping, at a small church where the head pastor just didn't follow up with a request for a conversation.  

I get what you are saying, but I think you are missing me a little.  Building relationships takes time.  Building them with folks who don't want one is impossible.  That is the trend I am seeing.


----------



## Huntinfool

and that's why I say, go find a good one.  There are lots of them out there.

There are definitely some horrible ones.  We agree on that.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> and that's why I say, go find a good one.  There are lots of them out there..



Or maybe I am a horrible congregant with no business in a church?  Who knows.  I'm just frustrated with it all.


----------



## littlewolf

Man I like that song and I like hearing that kind of music at church.  I'm sorry it doesn't work for you.  I also like gospel music.  I don't see any problem with different types of music for worship if they move you spiritually and have a message.


----------



## JB0704

littlewolf said:


> Man I like that song and I like hearing that kind of music at church.  I'm sorry it doesn't work for you.  I also like gospel music.  I don't see any problem with different types of music for worship if they move you spiritually and have a message.



Honestly, LW, you read the entire thread, and still determined it was about that song?

a. I stated multiple times that music isn't a big deal.
b. I stated very clearly my case against that song, as well as my hope that those who enjoy it continue enjoying it.
c. I am very happy you like that song.

So, this Sunday, it is my sincere hope that you are able to enjoy your church's version of hillsong united.  For me, after being part of it for so long, I just can't take it anymore.  But that's why there is more than one church out there.....right?


----------



## Huntinfool

Oh hey JB...


Guess what song is on the set list I just got for Sunday.  Just a little good old fashioned irony for you.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Oh hey JB...
> 
> 
> Guess what song is on the set list I just got for Sunday.  Just a little good old fashioned irony for you.



Must be a love letter to your personal devotion.....


----------



## JB0704

I'm sure you will play with extra zeal knowing somewhere, across the city, JB will be cringing


----------



## Huntinfool

Naw....to be honest, I don't really like the song much either.  

If I was in charge, I would pick songs very differently.  But I'm not.  So I play what's laid in front of me.

The cool thing about being on stage, though, is that you get the experience of facing all the people who are worshipping.

Did you not ever experience watching a whole bunch of people worship while singing a song that you didn't particularly like when you were playing?


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> I'm sure you will play with extra zeal knowing somewhere, across the city, JB will be cringing





I might just go buy me some new sticks so I can play it to the best of my ability!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Did you not ever experience watching a whole bunch of people worship while singing a song that you didn't particularly like when you were playing?



It is interesting being up there for sure.  It's amazing how much one "feeds off" the crowd.  If they are bored and not interested, it really hinders my efforts.  If they are "pumped" I would start stomping my foot to the base (this also helped me keep time, but I thought it looked cool also...I was pretty lame).  I tried not to make eye contact, because I always got very, very nervous.  

As far as noticing the crowd, yea, there were a few songs the youth group loved that we hated, but played anyways, that was always fun.  We would just kind-of look at each other and shrug, and keep on playing!


----------



## JB0704

One local church puts the musicians at crowd level, where they can't really be seen, so they do not become the focus.  I kind-of like that also.  The congregation focuses on a cross during the music, and the musicians are just kind-of there.

I think I would enjoy playing in such a scenario, it would feel "pure" I guess.  But it would lose the whole "crowd effect."


----------



## Huntinfool

Makes sense to me.  I think that's a pretty darn good idea honestly.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Makes sense to me.  I think that's a pretty darn good idea honestly.



They are next on the "visit list."


----------



## fish hawk

JB0704 said:


> IMHO, a church's finances should be at least as transparent as a government's.



Agreed.Our churches are,before any major purchases a time is devoted to questions and answers then a vote is taken among our congregation.We also vote on our churches yearly expenses,as a congregation....It's all in black and white and thats the way it should be.


----------



## Huntinfool

> It's all in black and white and thats the way it should be.



because.....


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## gemcgrew

HF, if I come visit your church, do I need to bring a John MacArthur Study Bible to blend in?


----------



## fish hawk

Huntinfool said:


> because.....



Because what.....Dont you want to know what your church is spending God's money on?Or do you even have a clue?


----------



## Huntinfool

gemcgrew said:


> HF, if I come visit your church, do I need to bring a John MacArthur Study Bible to blend in?



Nope.  I think ESV would be fine.  Though I do know a lot of folks really like the NKJV a lot as well.  I wouldn't wear a coat and tie though if you're worried about fitting in.

Better watch out talkin' about JM....RJ will get ya!!!


----------



## rjcruiser

gemcgrew said:


> HF, if I come visit your church, do I need to bring a John MacArthur Study Bible to blend in?



I seriously doubt many at HF's church carry a MacArthur Study Bible.

But...that being said...is there a problem with it?  I think it is a really useful tool in my own personal study.



fish hawk said:


> Because what.....Dont you want to know what your church is spending God's money on?Or do you even have a clue?



I think he's asking why you think it is such an important issue?  Is it Biblical? Is it personal preference?  Why do you feel that way?

As far as wanting to know....um...sure...I guess I want to know.  Not sure if I need to know...as I know that the elders that run my church are doing the best they can and are led by the Holy Spirit.


----------



## Huntinfool

fish hawk said:


> Because what.....Dont you want to know what your church is spending God's money on?Or do you even have a clue?



I have a clue.  In fact, I know a lot about how it's spent.  

My question to you was this.  You said it's all in black and white "as it should be."  I am curious why that's "as it should be".  Is there some biblical basis that says that's "as it should be"?

It has a very untrusting tone to it.  That's why I ask.  Are you worried that, if you don't know the details, they'll misuse it?


----------



## Huntinfool

> As far as wanting to know....um...sure...I guess I want to know. Not sure if I need to know...as I know that the elders that run my church are doing the best they can and are led by the Holy Spirit.



Bingo...

The only reason you would "need to know" is if you feel your elders aren't trustworthy and aren't spirit led in their decisions.


----------



## fish hawk

rjcruiser said:


> I think he's asking why you think it is such an important issue?  Is it Biblical? Is it personal preference?  Why do you feel that way?
> 
> As far as wanting to know....um...sure...I guess I want to know.  Not sure if I need to know...as I know that the elders that run my church are doing the best they can and are led by the Holy Spirit.



Got it!!!personal preference.Like i stated earlier i think it's important to know what God's money is being spent on and how.Our church works hard at not owing or being in any debt.We just made two very large purchases that is increasing our sq/footage by about 55,000 Sq/ft which is good because were running out of seats.


----------



## gemcgrew

rjcruiser said:


> I seriously doubt many at HF's church carry a MacArthur Study Bible.
> 
> But...that being said...is there a problem with it?  I think it is a really useful tool in my own personal study.



No problem at all. I enjoy mine. It was just my way of asking if the church is Reformed Theology.


----------



## fish hawk

Huntinfool said:


> Bingo...
> 
> The only reason you would "need to know" is if you feel your elders aren't trustworthy and aren't spirit led in their decisions.


Sorry, now your drawing conclusions that are very,very wrong.I trust our church staff,leaders,deacons whole heartily and pray for there wisdom and guidance everyday,just as they have asked us as a congregation to do!!!


----------



## Huntinfool

I would say that many in the core of the church hold to some reformed ideas.

I thought you were stopping by for a visit though.  Aren't you?


----------



## Huntinfool

fish hawk said:


> Sorry, now your drawing conclusions that are very,very wrong.I trust our church staff,leaders,deacons whole heartily and pray for there wisdom and guidance everyday,just as they have asked us as a congregation to do!!!



No...I'm really not.  If you trust them, why do they need to account for every penny? 

Maybe they don't and I just misread.  It reads very much like you trust them wholeheartedly.....but want to make sure they are doing what's right.

I think maybe the "as it should be" part just took me back a little.  I don't know that there is anything that says that's how it should be.  If that's the way you like it, it's fine.  But "as it should be" implies some authoritative measure.


----------



## rjcruiser

fish hawk said:


> Got it!!!personal preference.Like i stated earlier i think it's important to know what God's money is being spent on and how.Our church works hard at not owing or being in any debt.We just made two very large purchases that is increasing our sq/footage by about 55,000 Sq/ft which is good because were running out of seats.



Why do you think it is important?

Not trying to beat a dead horse, just trying to get more of an answer.

I think that one of the main reasons congregation rule and open finances is because that's how it's always been done.  Another failure of the SBC (for gtparts)



gemcgrew said:


> No problem at all. I enjoy mine. It was just my way of asking if the church is Reformed Theology.



Gotcha.  I believe they're pretty reformed in their theology.  I'd venture to say the issues you'd find there is that the preaching is topical vs expositional (if that is still the case) and the music/feel of the church is more contemporary than you'd probably feel comfortable with.  Now...that is going off of the last time I visited there which was several years ago.

HF...please correct me if I'm mis-representing the church.

I do know the pastor and many folks that go there and he (the pastor) has a true servants heart.  It is obvious through his devotion to his church.


----------



## fish hawk

Huntinfool said:


> Bingo...
> 
> The only reason you would "need to know" is if you feel your elders aren't trustworthy and aren't spirit led in their decisions.


Also ,our people in charge want to be above reproach.Not taking any chances of anything that would bring dishonor to the name of Christ and that my friend reflects wisdom on the part of our leadership!!!


----------



## Huntinfool

> I'd venture to say the issues you'd find there is that the preaching is topical vs expositional (if that is still the case) and the music/feel of the church is more contemporary than you'd probably feel comfortable with.



On the music, you're dead on.  We've been working through Ephesians 6 for about 6 weeks now so...

I wouldn't say it's every been super topical.  But we don't work through entire books for a series of months either.

I would personally like to see us start doing more of that.  But he's not up there telling us "a nun, a priest and a penguin walk into a bar" jokes either.


----------



## Huntinfool

fish hawk said:


> Also ,our people in charge want to be above reproach.Not taking any chances of anything that would bring dishonor to the name of Christ and that my friend reflects wisdom on the part of our leadership!!!



That's what the team of elders is for...no?  No one elder can make a decision on his own?  So they hold each other accountable to bringing honor to the name of Christ?  No?

Is it not an elder led church?


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> But he's not up there telling us "a nun, a priest and a penguin walk into a bar" jokes either.



Totally agree.....I hope I didn't come across as "holier than thou" or bashing your church.  That was not, nor is not my intent.  

Again, your Pastor is a true servant to his congregation...one thing that I see as being more and more important as I go through life.


----------



## Huntinfool

Nope.  No worries.  I think you were probably just putting out what you might have heard from me in the past.  It's a little different now than it used to be  I actually wish we did more working through large chunks of scripture.  But I do see the entire church shifting slowly toward more reformed theology and more expository preaching on sunday.

But I am thankful that he's not up there giving us "ten ways to talk to your teen" or "5 ways to steam up your marriage" every week.

I'd say it's more toward expository than you'd normally find....if that means anything!


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> But I am thankful that he's not up there giving us "ten ways to talk to your teen" or "5 ways to steam up your marriage" every week.
> 
> I'd say it's more toward expository than you'd normally find....if that means anything!



True that.  I will say, my thoughts are based off of visiting several years ago....not off of your comments here...so you can rest easy


----------



## Huntinfool

I think you'd probably feel better about things if you visited again some time.


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> I think you'd probably feel better about things if you visited again some time.



I probably would...but we're fairly content with where we are at now.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Even "Amazing Grace" was contemporary at one time. I would rather hear the "Hee Haw Gospel Quartet" than Contemporary Gospel music but I don't discount the importance of new ways of praising Jesus. The same goes for contemporary preachers and writers. Why someone would  think the old stuff is the only way is beyond me.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> No...I'm really not.  If you trust them, why do they need to account for every penny?
> 
> Maybe they don't and I just misread.  It reads very much like you trust them wholeheartedly.....but want to make sure they are doing what's right.
> 
> I think maybe the "as it should be" part just took me back a little.  I don't know that there is anything that says that's how it should be.  If that's the way you like it, it's fine.  But "as it should be" implies some authoritative measure.



HF, I know you know a lot about accounting, and I am certain RJ knows WAY more than I do.  Folks like y'all can appreciate the concept of accountability.  Regardless of where the accountability comes from, mistrust, process, etc., it is a good thing.  

Take cash for example, the person who collects it should never be the person who deposits it.  Does that mean you don't trust your cashiers?  No, it just means you are elliminating a "stumbling block" through segregation of duties.

By implementing accountability measures, you are making life easier for those who are held accountable.  Leadership, no matter how honest they are, should always be willing to submit to accountability which will provide them a "safety net" if and when accused.  It's just better.

It's not that elders / finance committee / preachers shouldn't be trusted, it's that there is only a positive outcome when the money is transparent to all.  Why not go for the best possible conclusion?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ......or "5 ways to steam up your marriage" every week.





I just sat through a very similar sermon series at the church mentioned in the OP.......


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> Why someone would  think the old stuff is the only way is beyond me.



AD, I usually agree with you on most topics, but I am not certain why you think folks are saying this.


----------



## fish hawk

JB0704 said:


> HF, I know you know a lot about accounting, and I am certain RJ knows WAY more than I do.  Folks like y'all can appreciate the concept of accountability.  Regardless of where the accountability comes from, mistrust, process, etc., it is a good thing.
> 
> Take cash for example, the person who collects it should never be the person who deposits it.  Does that mean you don't trust your cashiers?  No, it just means you are elliminating a "stumbling block" through segregation of duties.
> 
> By implementing accountability measures, you are making life easier for those who are held accountable.  Leadership, no matter how honest they are, should always be willing to submit to accountability which will provide them a "safety net" if and when accused.  It's just better.
> 
> It's not that elders / finance committee / preachers shouldn't be trusted, it's that there is only a positive outcome when the money is transparent to all.  Why not go for the best possible conclusion?



Good post!!!


----------



## 1gr8bldr

No, I don't trust them. I have served as deacon and chairman for many three year terms. I know what goes on. Not to imply that something is corrupt. It is a different kind of trust issue. If your not careful, all the money begins to go towards what will grow the church. Attendance numbers. This was not the NT picture we have of giving. Helping people, not bricks


----------



## JB0704

1gr8bldr said:


> If your not careful, all the money begins to go towards what will grow the church. Attendance numbers. This was not the NT picture we have of giving. Helping people, not bricks



Exactly!  You've got churches out there paying money on interest for their mortgage, but thier benevolence fund is all used up. And then, you have a conflict of "vision."

Preacher: God wants us to build a gymnasium.

Congregant: If we do that we can't feed the poor, God wants us to feed the poor.  

Preacher: God gave me a vision to build a gymnasium, and you are clearly not on board with that vision.  

That's how it works when you give out blank checks of trust.  At some point, there should be checks and balances to protect even the most honest authority figures.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> AD, I usually agree with you on most topics, but I am not certain why you think folks are saying this.



On this thread comments like "when I see the word contemporary in association with churches, I kiss them goodbye." There were comments on people not liking contemporary music on this thread. Folks are always saying, on other threads, how there are no modern day  prophets, writers, faith healers, Bible interpreters, musicians, etc. as good as the oldies. I disagree with this. There are people that aren't even born yet that will be just as great a Martin Luther, Calvin, & Ignatius.
I don't care for "Jars of Clay or Twila Paris, not because I don't believe in their faith, I just don't like the style. They probably reach the younger generation more than musicians I like. Stryper was a popular Christian band. Hopefully they brought many to meet Jesus. 
For me it's, give me that "old time religion" it was good enough for Mama, it's good enough for me. But i'm not saying it's the only way.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> HF, I know you know a lot about accounting, and I am certain RJ knows WAY more than I do.  Folks like y'all can appreciate the concept of accountability.  Regardless of where the accountability comes from, mistrust, process, etc., it is a good thing.
> 
> Take cash for example, the person who collects it should never be the person who deposits it.  Does that mean you don't trust your cashiers?  No, it just means you are elliminating a "stumbling block" through segregation of duties.
> 
> By implementing accountability measures, you are making life easier for those who are held accountable.  Leadership, no matter how honest they are, should always be willing to submit to accountability which will provide them a "safety net" if and when accused.  It's just better.
> 
> It's not that elders / finance committee / preachers shouldn't be trusted, it's that there is only a positive outcome when the money is transparent to all.  Why not go for the best possible conclusion?



The problem with accountability to the people in the pews is that it just is not Biblical.

You can have segregation of duties....proper internal controls...with utilizing just the elders/pastoral staff.  That is why you have multiple elders...not just the pastor.

If you start giving decision making power to the congregation, you're going to have non-believers and immature Christians making decisions for the Church....definitely not Biblical.  Look at the Jerusalem Council in Acts.  Was a decision made by the leaders of the Church...not by the congregation.

And don't worry...I've been a part of a church where leadership mis-used funds.  Yup...the church shrank so much, they couldn't afford the maintenance/upkeep on the paid for facility along with the rather large salaries of the pastoral staff.  What happened?  The facility was sold for several million (yes, million) dollars and the pastor and associate pastor fired the other two elders and took the money to build a smaller facility and use the remaining funds to keep salaries the same.


----------



## gordon 2

JB0704 said:


> Exactly!  You've got churches out there paying money on interest for their mortgage, but thier benevolence fund is all used up. And then, you have a conflict of "vision."
> 
> Preacher: God wants us to build a gymnasium.
> 
> Congregant: If we do that we can't feed the poor, God wants us to feed the poor.
> 
> Preacher: God gave me a vision to build a gymnasium, and you are clearly not on board with that vision.
> 
> That's how it works when you give out blank checks of trust.  At some point, there should be checks and balances to protect even the most honest authority figures.



I sometimes wonder if churches ( individual church groups) should not give themselves a specific spiritual mission statement and keep to it. In that way pastors, priests and elders and others might not give folk a ride they never wanted to get themselves into in the first place.

I somehow have the belief that some groups or groupings in the universal chruch have specific gifts as an assembly. For example the gift of 2ed street Assembly might be to minister to those who morn, are crushed by their lives of sin and who perceive that  nobody cares or values them. While, 4th street assembly might be gifted in ministering dignity to the poor. Other churches might have a gift in missions overseas, others might have a specific gift elsewhere that can be used in the Kingdom. ( Some church might be gifted in alter calling  and with the message to go back to your home church. My favorite.) Some churches might be good at providing  ecumenical oppertunities or serious studies in aspectes of the faith, doctrines, world religions, heath care, economics, sociology, medicine etc.. 

Pastor x or elders y might get the Holy Spirit notion of building a new temple, starting their own church etc.. and this is all good, but what needs to move in a mission specific church is not the assembly, but the pastor, priest or elders... In this way  people with both, sudden or divergent interests can better serve God.

If an individual had the gift to manage the efforts of 200 people who have it as their mission to publish tracts and you made that person a server at the church's fundraising dinners.... someone is playing the Holy Spirit for a fool in my view.... Just my 2cents. Some assemblies have gifts....just as indiviual do.

Part of being at home for me in my chruch is that like being at home I can chose to not fully participate when I "know" things are not right and yet fully participate on things I know are right on. Sometimes I protest by my absence and hope my abscence is protested ----and when it is not...I know my family was never there. In my church they know I can be just as wrong or just as  right  as the other guy or gal, ( including the pastor or priest and elders) and everyone knows this.  And that is how I know where I belong, and who belongs to me.

And about young people and new members ( imature), one should never forget one can get cataracts from too much light.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> The problem with accountability to the people in the pews is that it just is not Biblical.



I semi-disagree.  I believe there is a pretty clear case of congregational involvement in decision making, the line as to where the elder's discretion begins and the congregations involvement ends is quite fuzzy.



rjcruiser said:


> You can have segregation of duties....proper internal controls...with utilizing just the elders/pastoral staff.  That is why you have multiple elders...not just the pastor.



Yes, but, who controls the controls? Let's use my last church as an example, where the elders simply "affirmed" the head pastor.  What you ended up having is basically one man calling the shots surrounded by "yes men," and all internal controls failed.  Last check, they are running a massive budget deficit for the 5th year straight, and closing down multiple ministries.  



rjcruiser said:


> If you start giving decision making power to the congregation, you're going to have non-believers and immature Christians making decisions for the Church....definitely not Biblical.  Look at the Jerusalem Council in Acts.  Was a decision made by the leaders of the Church...not by the congregation.



I get what you are saying about immature Christians, but not all "mature" Christians are elders.  Heck, I've been divorced, I will never be an elder, it seems (would never accept such a post anyway), but I am more qualified to handle the finances than most elders in local churches.  I believe there must be a balance, and such a balance is undefined.

I do not see congregational involvement as being discouraged in the NT models we are given.



rjcruiser said:


> And don't worry...I've been a part of a church where leadership mis-used funds.  Yup...the church shrank so much, they couldn't afford the maintenance/upkeep on the paid for facility along with the rather large salaries of the pastoral staff.  What happened?  The facility was sold for several million (yes, million) dollars and the pastor and associate pastor fired the other two elders and took the money to build a smaller facility and use the remaining funds to keep salaries the same.



Seems we have all been there.  Maybe one day I will get where y'all are, and be able to wade through the mess.  Right now, I am getting bogged down, big time.


----------



## JB0704

gordon 2 said:


> I sometimes wonder if churches ( individual church groups) should not give themselves a specific spiritual mission statement and keep to it. In that way pastors, priests and elders and others might not give folk a ride they never wanted to get themselves into in the first place.
> 
> I somehow have the belief that some groups or groupings in the universal chruch have specific gifts as an assembly. For example the gift of 2ed street Assembly might be to minister to those who morn, are crushed by their lives of sin and who perceive that  nobody cares or values them. While, 4th street assembly might be gifted in ministering dignity to the poor. Other churches might have a gift in missions overseas, others might have a specific gift elsewhere that can be used in the Kingdom. ( Some church might be gifted in alter calling  and with the message to go back to your home church. My favorite.) Some churches might be good at providing  ecumenical oppertunities or serious studies in aspectes of the faith, doctrines, world religions, heath care, economics, sociology, medicine etc..
> 
> Pastor x or elders y might get the Holy Spirit notion of building a new temple, starting their own church etc.. and this is all good, but what needs to move in a mission specific church is not the assembly, but the pastor, priest or elders... In this way  people with both, sudden or divergent interests can better serve God.
> 
> If an individual had the gift to manage the efforts of 200 people who have it as their mission to publish tracts and you made that person a server at the church's fundraising dinners.... someone is playing the Holy Spirit for a fool in my view.... Just my 2cents. Some assemblies have gifts....just as indiviual do.
> 
> Part of being at home for me in my chruch is that like being at home I can chose to not fully participate when I "know" things are not right and yet fully participate on things I know are right on. Sometimes I protest by my absence and hope my abscence is protested and when it is not...I know my family was never there.



Most modern churches have some sort of a "vision statement."  This defines what they are all about.  However, these statements tend to be vague, and are open to interpretation by the one's who control the "vision."

I find this interesting, if a CEO walked into a board room, and told the directors that God gae him a vision, he would be fired on the spot.  However, a preacher gets behind a pulpit, or in front of elders, and says God gave him a vision, and those who question it are tossed.  It's almost like a "prove you're Godly through your submission."

But, relevant to your comments, are you indicating that churches should narrow their focus?


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> On this thread comments like "when I see the word contemporary in association with churches, I kiss them goodbye." There were comments on people not liking contemporary music on this thread. Folks are always saying, on other threads, how there are no modern day  prophets, writers, faith healers, Bible interpreters, musicians, etc. as good as the oldies. I disagree with this. There are people that aren't even born yet that will be just as great a Martin Luther, Calvin, & Ignatius.
> I don't care for "Jars of Clay or Twila Paris, not because I don't believe in their faith, I just don't like the style. They probably reach the younger generation more than musicians I like. Stryper was a popular Christian band. Hopefully they brought many to meet Jesus.
> For me it's, give me that "old time religion" it was good enough for Mama, it's good enough for me. But i'm not saying it's the only way.



I don't think it's the only way either.  I think it all boils down to motivation.  My expereince with those who have dabbled in the Christian music industry leads me to question their motives.

I'm not saying it's all bad.

For example, David Crowder's "Oh Praise Him" is another song I used to love to play.....and after all these years, I still think it is a really nice praise song.  Very honest stuff, it seems.  BTW, I saw that dude do a bluegrass set once, he is one heck-of-a musician.

Here is the song mentioned for those who care to hear (sorry, couldn't find official video):


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> I semi-disagree.  I believe there is a pretty clear case of congregational involvement in decision making, the line as to where the elder's discretion begins and the congregations involvement ends is quite fuzzy.



I agree....but doctrinal issues and financial issues I don't believe fall into that category.  Again, read through Acts and see the involvement of the "congregation." 




JB0704 said:


> Yes, but, who controls the controls? Let's use my last church as an example, where the elders simply "affirmed" the head pastor.  What you ended up having is basically one man calling the shots surrounded by "yes men," and all internal controls failed.  Last check, they are running a massive budget deficit for the 5th year straight, and closing down multiple ministries.



And that is an issue...that is not Biblical eldership or even leadership.  As a member of that church, I would confront the elders in love about their lack of leadership.  Then, if changes did not happen, I'd leave. 




JB0704 said:


> I get what you are saying about immature Christians, but not all "mature" Christians are elders.  Heck, I've been divorced, I will never be an elder, it seems (would never accept such a post anyway), but I am more qualified to handle the finances than most elders in local churches.  I believe there must be a balance, and such a balance is undefined.



Oh...I agree.  I don't think you have to be an elder to handle the finances.  I think that is a staff position.  So, the church can hire a CPA or an Accountant to handle the finances and give guidance to how controls should be set up.  But...the decisions as to how to utilize funds should be up to the Elders. 

Also, having a CPA firm come in and do an assessment or even an audit is a great idea.  Capin Crouse is a nationwide firm that specializes in non-profit accounting.  I'd recommend them to any church.  It is a good use of funds and allows the congregation to know that their giving is being handled properly.  

***No...I don't work at Capin Crouse  



JB0704 said:


> I do not see congregational involvement as being discouraged in the NT models we are given.



Neither do I....but what type of involvement.  The leadership needs to be in tune with the congregation and listen.  But the final decision needs to be left up to them




JB0704 said:


> Seems we have all been there.  Maybe one day I will get where y'all are, and be able to wade through the mess.  Right now, I am getting bogged down, big time.



Oh...I'm not as far along as you might think.  I'm part of a church, but I still have a lot of issues to work through


----------



## rockman7

JB0704 said:


> I don't think it's the only way either.  I think it all boils down to motivation.  My expereince with those who have dabbled in the Christian music industry leads me to question their motives.
> 
> I'm not saying it's all bad.
> 
> For example, David Crowder's "Oh Praise Him" is another song I used to love to play.....and after all these years, I still think it is a really nice praise song.  Very honest stuff, it seems.  BTW, I saw that dude do a bluegrass set once, he is one heck-of-a musician.
> 
> Here is the song mentioned for those who care to hear (sorry, couldn't find official video):



you would like the guy who plays everything in Eb!!! Good Grief!!


----------



## JB0704

rockman7 said:


> you would like the guy who plays everything in Eb!!! Good Grief!!



Just move that capo around, learn G,C, and D chords, and you now know every Christian song out there......


----------



## StriperAddict

JB0704 said:


> Just move that capo around, learn G,C, and D chords, and you now know every Christian song out there......


 
Don't forget E minor ... ya can't leave out those great Jewish-Messianic Praise/Worship songs


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...I agree.  I don't think you have to be an elder to handle the finances.  I think that is a staff position.  So, the church can hire a CPA or an Accountant to handle the finances and give guidance to how controls should be set up.  But...the decisions as to how to utilize funds should be up to the Elders.
> 
> Also, having a CPA firm come in and do an assessment or even an audit is a great idea.  Capin Crouse is a nationwide firm that specializes in non-profit accounting.  I'd recommend them to any church.  It is a good use of funds and allows the congregation to know that their giving is being handled properly.



Having an external CPA audit the books is an excellent idea.  And this is also an accountability measure.  As far as who handles it, that might be determined by the size of the church.  Smaller churches probably can't afford a decent accountant.  But, I think most should be able to afford annual CPA services....just like another insurance policy.  

I am fine either way, as long as the process is open for folks to see.  Openness is an accountability measure as well.  We can say we trust the elders to handle the money, but do the elders trust the congregation to know how it is spent?



rjcruiser said:


> ....but what type of involvement.  The leadership needs to be in tune with the congregation and listen.  But the final decision needs to be left up to them



I guess what we are determining is that we agree on principle, just not on the "lines."


----------



## JB0704

StriperAddict said:


> Don't forget E minor ... ya can't leave out those great Jewish-Messianic Praise/Worship songs





....yep....I was never very good.  It's just that all the songs were relatively easy to play.


----------



## gordon 2

JB0704 said:


> Most modern churches have some sort of a "vision statement."  This defines what they are all about.  However, these statements tend to be vague, and are open to interpretation by the one's who control the "vision."
> 
> I find this interesting, if a CEO walked into a board room, and told the directors that God gae him a vision, he would be fired on the spot.  However, a preacher gets behind a pulpit, or in front of elders, and says God gave him a vision, and those who question it are tossed.  It's almost like a "prove you're Godly through your submission."
> 
> But, relevant to your comments, are you indicating that churches should narrow their focus?



They should minister fully but in matters of "God gave me a vision", surely God gives a vision to the assembly and the leaders as to what they are good or gifted at and capable of. Everyone should be able to sense this in the assembly, simply by following it for even a short time. And just as individuals have spiritual gifts and proceed, so to the assembly including the leadership. No changing visions unless in extreme emergencies or circumstances.


----------



## Ronnie T

Biblical elders will always understand that they are not the leader of the church.  Christ is.  It's easy:  do it all, and do it the way you would envision Christ wanting it done.  Rather than leaders, elders are shepherds.  They are the protectors of the flock.  They keep the flock in the ways of God.  They work to keep Christ's church walking in the light of Christ.

Elders wouldn't need the congregation's input on what color the kitchen should be painted.....  But they probably will check with the entire congregation before they replace all the pews with folding padded chairs(churches divide over things like that).

Elders seldom make decisions based on a 3 to 2 vote by the 5 elders of a church.  Elders would expect a 5 to 0 vote before undertaking a major even or change.

Ideally, no one loves the Lord, or His church, more than an elder.  

Every church is different when it comes to


----------



## polkhunt

I think the reason people have a problem with some "modern" churches if that is what you want to call it is that they know no different. If what a church is doing is not against scripture but is just something you are not used to then why would you feel dirty or uncomfortable. If it is not your preference then that is one thing but to say it is a wrong way to worship is another.


----------



## Artfuldodger

polkhunt said:


> I think the reason people have a problem with some "modern" churches if that is what you want to call it is that they know no different. If what a church is doing is not against scripture but is just something you are not used to then why would you feel dirty or uncomfortable. If it is not your preference then that is one thing but to say it is a wrong way to worship is another.



Yep, that's my thoughts on the matter. Old Church-New Church, Big Church-Little Church, Baptist Church-Apostolic Church; just find one to fit your likes.


----------



## Ronnie T

Find one that your faith can comfortably grow at.


----------



## JB0704

polkhunt said:


> I think the reason people have a problem with some "modern" churches if that is what you want to call it is that they know no different. If what a church is doing is not against scripture but is just something you are not used to then why would you feel dirty or uncomfortable. If it is not your preference then that is one thing but to say it is a wrong way to worship is another.



PH, I was part of the "modern" church for a very long time.  It is much more complicated than that.  I have stated multiple times in this thread, and many others, that style has nothing to do with my issues with the modern church.

I often peruse through a church's web site to determine what they say they are.  OFten, you will find they are organized around the "head pastor."  Elders are often not even listed on the website.  Now, once you go to these churches you find that one man is calling the shots, and elders are window dressing, simply an "amen choir," voting whether or not to affirm the pastor.

Unfortunately, such a scheme is completely anti-NT teachings.  The church should be "sheperded" by elders.  No one man should ever be the final arbiter of vision.

Additionally, I see a lot of laziness on the part of congregations.  If they are entertained, they care little whether or not the church is following Biblical mandates.  The service becomes a weekly concert.  The "behind the scenes" stuff is irrelevant to their individual experience.....so it doesn't matter.  Then, all sorts of non-sense happens, and they sit blindly and support it because they feel cool sitting in the pews on Sunday morning.  Every now and then the preacher may actually shake their hand.....and dang, that is REALLY COOL!!  The preacher and musicians become quasi-celebrities while they gradually distance themselves from the congregation, hiding behind a sea of volunteer leaders.  Now, the staff ahs little accountability and little contact with the congregation....and they hide behind lines like "I won't cheat my family" as an excuse to avoid work outside normal business hours.  All the while, they ask men and women who already work full time jobs to volunteer their spare time and give up their treasure to support the staff's institutionalized laziness.

I personally believe anything worth doing is worth doing right.  This includes church.  Once it becomes a mindless exercise in self-gratifying entertainment where I care less about substance than style, I would be just as well sitting at home and catching a football game.

So, to say it is about what a person knows or is comfortable with is a considerable understatement.  If necessary, I can provide multiple links to contemporary churches which state openly that they are organized around a "pastor's vision."  Often, these churches were founded by that pastor, and he set up the "values" in such a way to prevent himself from being challenged.  What is such an organization?  It is not a church.  If it is not a church, why waste my Sunday attending it?

I don't care what they sing, as long as it is honest.  I don't care what they wear.  I don't care how they look.  What I care about is whether or not the congregation cares whether or not it is being "done right."  I care about whether or not they feeding the poor.  I care whether or not they are providing for missions, locally or globally.  I care whether or not they at least adhere to some structure similar to what we see in the NT.  I care whether or not they actually believe in something.

Good people get hurt by these arrangements.  Massive amounts of resources are wasted on "marketing."  Why would I want to be part of something which is dead wrong from the start, and destined to fail the most basic accuracy tests?

AND I KNOW NOT ALL CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES ARE LIKE THIS.  JUST THE VAST AMOUNTS OF ONES I HAVE VISITED.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

JB0704 said:


> PH, I was part of the "modern" church for a very long time.  It is much more complicated than that.  I have stated multiple times in this thread, and many others, that style has nothing to do with my issues with the modern church.
> 
> I often peruse through a church's web site to determine what they say they are.  OFten, you will find they are organized around the "head pastor."  Elders are often not even listed on the website.  Now, once you go to these churches you find that one man is calling the shots, and elders are window dressing, simply an "amen choir," voting whether or not to affirm the pastor.
> 
> Unfortunately, such a scheme is completely anti-NT teachings.  The church should be "sheperded" by elders.  No one man should ever be the final arbiter of vision.
> 
> Additionally, I see a lot of laziness on the part of congregations.  If they are entertained, they care little whether or not the church is following Biblical mandates.  The service becomes a weekly concert.  The "behind the scenes" stuff is irrelevant to their individual experience.....so it doesn't matter.  Then, all sorts of non-sense happens, and they sit blindly and support it because they feel cool sitting in the pews on Sunday morning.  Every now and then the preacher may actually shake their hand.....and dang, that is REALLY COOL!!  The preacher and musicians become quasi-celebrities while they gradually distance themselves from the congregation, hiding behind a sea of volunteer leaders.  Now, the staff ahs little accountability and little contact with the congregation....and they hide behind lines like* "I won't cheat my family" as an excuse to avoid work outside normal business hours.  All the while, they ask men and women who already work full time jobs to volunteer their spare time and give up their treasure to support the staff's institutionalized laziness.*
> 
> I personally believe anything worth doing is worth doing right.  This includes church.  Once it becomes a mindless exercise in self-gratifying entertainment where I care less about substance than style, I would be just as well sitting at home and catching a football game.
> 
> So, to say it is about what a person knows or is comfortable with is a considerable understatement.  If necessary, I can provide multiple links to contemporary churches which state openly that they are organized around a "pastor's vision."  Often, these churches were founded by that pastor, and he set up the "values" in such a way to prevent himself from being challenged.  What is such an organization?  It is not a church.  If it is not a church, why waste my Sunday attending it?
> 
> I don't care what they sing, as long as it is honest.  I don't care what they wear.  I don't care how they look.  What I care about is whether or not the congregation cares whether or not it is being "done right."  I care about whether or not they feeding the poor.  I care whether or not they are providing for missions, locally or globally.  I care whether or not they at least adhere to some structure similar to what we see in the NT.  I care whether or not they actually believe in something.
> 
> Good people get hurt by these arrangements.  Massive amounts of resources are wasted on "marketing."  Why would I want to be part of something which is dead wrong from the start, and destined to fail the most basic accuracy tests?
> 
> AND I KNOW NOT ALL CONTEMPORARY CHURCHES ARE LIKE THIS.  JUST THE VAST AMOUNTS OF ONES I HAVE VISITED.


JB, most overlook this unless they have been that person. Me too, buddy. Woke up to it one day and decided I had a family too.


----------



## JB0704

1gr8bldr said:


> JB, most overlook this unless they have been that person. Me too, buddy. Woke up to it one day and decided I had a family too.





This became a major sticking point for me.  I got to where I wondered why nobody else was offended that the staff was asking for a lot more sacrifice from the congregation than they were willing to give themselves. They were so protective of their family time, but so willing to ask me to sacrifice mine.  Hypocracy.  

Dang, man, gets me fired up thinking about it now.  Like I said in the OP, everything that made me leave is still there.  Working through it, I guess.......


----------



## 1gr8bldr

JB0704 said:


> This became a major sticking point for me.  I got to where I wondered why nobody else was offended that the staff was asking for a lot more sacrifice from the congregation than they were willing to give themselves. They were so protective of their family time, but so willing to ask me to sacrifice mine.  Hypocracy.
> 
> Dang, man, gets me fired up thinking about it now.  Like I said in the OP, everything that made me leave is still there.  Working through it, I guess.......


Yea, this became a big issue after I saw it. Took me awhile. It seemed everything they did was on the clock, so that at 5, they got to go home to their familys. But for me, I had to hurry home from work, spend my evening elsewhere and maybe if I'm lucky, see my kids before they went to bed. While I was neglecting my kids, he was playing super Father to his. Something about that picture just wasn't right.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> HF, I know you know a lot about accounting, and I am certain RJ knows WAY more than I do.  Folks like y'all can appreciate the concept of accountability.  Regardless of where the accountability comes from, mistrust, process, etc., it is a good thing.
> 
> Take cash for example, the person who collects it should never be the person who deposits it.  Does that mean you don't trust your cashiers?  No, it just means you are elliminating a "stumbling block" through segregation of duties.
> 
> By implementing accountability measures, you are making life easier for those who are held accountable.  Leadership, no matter how honest they are, should always be willing to submit to accountability which will provide them a "safety net" if and when accused.  It's just better.
> 
> It's not that elders / finance committee / preachers shouldn't be trusted, it's that there is only a positive outcome when the money is transparent to all.  Why not go for the best possible conclusion?



What I don't get is this...we have five elders.  None of them makes a decision without the approval of the other four.  What more accountability do they need?  

Why do we need overseers to oversee the overseers?


----------



## Huntinfool

1gr8bldr said:


> No, I don't trust them. I have served as deacon and chairman for many three year terms. I know what goes on. Not to imply that something is corrupt. It is a different kind of trust issue. If your not careful, all the money begins to go towards what will grow the church. Attendance numbers. This was not the NT picture we have of giving. Helping people, not bricks



Than those people aren't godly leaders...now are they?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> What I don't get is this...we have five elders.  None of them makes a decision without the approval of the other four.  What more accountability do they need?
> 
> Why do we need overseers to oversee the overseers?



While I understand your point, it is a bit more complicated than that.

How do the elders become elders?  Are they selected by the pastor, the elders, or the congregation?  

Once they become elders, what is their role?  Is it to exercise Godly wisdom and discretion, or to affirm the will of the pastor?

Both questions lead to a range of answers, and with those answers you insert variables.  To me, transparency and some form of accountability to the "body" as a whole will minimize the variables.

Out of morbid curiosity, are you an elder at your church?  Seems you are a man of high esteem within your church community.  Just curious.....not a loaded question.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Than those people aren't godly leaders...now are they?



How would one know without some level of accountability?  If all discretion is delegated to a small body of folks, how can we be certain we are led by Godly men?


----------



## Huntinfool

> but I am more qualified to handle the finances than most elders in local churches.



Don't take this the wrong way JB, ok?

When our church started, I had an undergrad in Bus Man, a Masters in Econ and almost a decade of experience in finance...

...I was not NEARLY as qualified to handle the money of our church as any of our five elders and only one of them works in finance.

Degree does not = Qualification when we are speaking of spending money given to God.  

Of course there needs to be wise decision making and people who are responsible with money involved.  

But that statement is one of the problems that RJ was pointing out.  There are so many people in a congregation who would make the same claim..."I'm an accountant.  I'm WAY more qualified than the elders are....(even though I have no relationship with Christ at all)."


----------



## Huntinfool

> While I understand your point, it is a bit more complicated than that.



No, it's really not.  You are making it more complicated than that because it makes you uncomfortable.




> How do the elders become elders?  Are they selected by the pastor, the elders, or the congregation?



They are selected by the other elders and confirmed by the congregation.  So they cannot just "select" a new elder without congregational approval.  That is one of the very few things the body actually votes on.



> Once they become elders, what is their role?  Is it to exercise Godly wisdom and discretion, or to affirm the will of the pastor?



They are a team.



> Both questions lead to a range of answers, and with those answers you insert variables.  To me, transparency and some form of accountability to the "body" as a whole will minimize the variables.



They are accountable to God for the manner in which they lead the body....I think that keeps them in pretty good check.




> Out of morbid curiosity, are you an elder at your church?  Seems you are a man of high esteem within your church community.  Just curious.....not a loaded question.



HA!  I think you give me too much credit man.  Maybe I'm a legend in my own mind!

Nope.  Not an elder or deacon....and will likely never be asked to serve in that capacity.

That fact should not keep any of us from serving like an elder or a deacon IMO (even if we don't have the title)!


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> How would one know without some level of accountability?  If all discretion is delegated to a small body of folks, how can we be certain we are led by Godly men?



Relationships......


I hated to have to do that....but it needed to be done.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Don't take this the wrong way JB, ok?
> 
> When our church started, I had an undergrad in Bus Man, a Masters in Econ and almost a decade of experience in finance...
> 
> ...I was not NEARLY as qualified to handle the money of our church as any of our five elders and only one of them works in finance.
> 
> Degree does not = Qualification when we are speaking of spending money given to God.
> 
> Of course there needs to be wise decision making and people who are responsible with money involved.
> 
> But that statement is one of the problems that RJ was pointing out.  There are so many people in a congregation who would make the same claim..."I'm an accountant.  I'm WAY more qualified than the elders are....(even though I have no relationship with Christ at all)."



No, they don't.  But they help in understanding how these things work.  Now, many churches have a CPA on staff, those dudes smoke me as far as knowledge goes.  But, why do they have CPA's in the controller position?  It is education and experience.  The CPA designation is one of integrity as well as expeience and education.

Internal controls is a a very real necessity when anybody is handling money.  Much of internal controls is prevention, and accountability prevents a lot of ugliness.  Non-profits are particularly sensitive because any member of the public can request the financial docs (certain IRS forms) at any time.  

Going into this discussion, I was well aware that you have an extensive education, as well as RJ, more so than myself.  As such, I would think you would understand the point I was making.....that handling money is a very serious deal.  And I don't understand the resistance to accountability.  It looks like the leaders don't trust the followers, but they want the followers to trust the leaders.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Relationships......
> 
> 
> I hated to have to do that....but it needed to be done.



Yes sir....you get the big eye roll  

In all seriousness, I believe the modern church is moving away from relationships.  Such relationships are very difficult to build when they are avoided by the leadership.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> They are selected by the other elders and confirmed by the congregation.  So they cannot just "select" a new elder without congregational approval.  That is one of the very few things the body actually votes on.



Perhaps in your church, last church I often speak of they were selected by the elders....no congregational voting on the subject.  



Huntinfool said:


> They are accountable to God for the manner in which they lead the body....I think that keeps them in pretty good check..



I don't.  All believers understand our accountability to God.  None of us are able to remain "blameless."  We all make mistakes, let ourselves get in the way.  Pastors cheat on wives, elders mismanage money, congregants gossip and backstab......we are all human.

All I am really advocating for is checks and balances.  



Huntinfool said:


> Nope.  Not an elder or deacon....and will likely never be asked to serve in that capacity.
> 
> That fact should not keep any of us from serving like an elder or a deacon IMO (even if we don't have the title)!



Agreed.

Do you believe your being raised by a church leader has led you to trust people of faith mroe than others?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ...I was not NEARLY as qualified to handle the money of our church as any of our five elders and only one of them works in finance.



What is your basis for qualification?  Godliness, experience, results?

Sounds to me like you would be the type of guy I would want on the finance team.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> No, they don't.  But they help in understanding how these things work.  Now, many churches have a CPA on staff, those dudes smoke me as far as knowledge goes.  But, why do they have CPA's in the controller position?  It is education and experience.  The CPA designation is one of integrity as well as expeience and education.
> 
> Internal controls is a a very real necessity when anybody is handling money.  Much of internal controls is prevention, and accountability prevents a lot of ugliness.  Non-profits are particularly sensitive because any member of the public can request the financial docs (certain IRS forms) at any time.
> 
> Going into this discussion, I was well aware that you have an extensive education, as well as RJ, more so than myself.  As such, I would think you would understand the point I was making.....that handling money is a very serious deal.  And I don't understand the resistance to accountability.  It looks like the leaders don't trust the followers, but they want the followers to trust the leaders.



There's not resistance to accountability.  But I think it would be very difficult to make the case that the elders are to be accountable to the church in very many areas (biblically I mean).  They are the authority.  They are in charge.  They lead and they make the decisions.  That is pretty cut and dry biblically.

It's not as if the elders in the biblical text made a decision and then ran it out there to feel the church out for how they felt about it.....is it?

Let's go OT.  How bout if Moses (who had been given authority over Isreal) had said "We're going through the desert...God has given me a vision.  We'll probably spend, oh, say 40 years or so out there and I have no plan for food or water.  How do y'all feel about that?  Anybody object?  Yes?....ok, well I guess we won't do that."

JB, the fact is that whether you like it or not, God is still in the "vision" business.  You seem to mock that a good bit (or at the very least doubt it).  Elders are not elders in title only.  They are authority in the church.  They are given high responsibility by both the church and by God and they are held to a high level of accountability by God.

But they are not accountable to you and me for eveyr decision they make.  They just are not biblically.  You told RJ you could make the case that they are.  I'd be very interested to see how well you could make that case.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> Yes sir....you get the big eye roll
> 
> In all seriousness, I believe the modern church is moving away from relationships.  Such relationships are very difficult to build when they are avoided by the leadership.



You're too jaded.  One of the primary things we are called to in scripture is relationship.

I don't care what "the modern church" is doing.  If you find a church and leadership that is resistant to that, then move on and find another.


----------



## JB0704

In retrospect, I did intend to say "many" and not "most" in that post.  There are a lot of very Godly men in elder positions who are fantastic with handling the churches finances.

But, I have seen some very real disasters.  These are often a result of poor management, and lack of oversight.  I once saw a chruch pass a pension resolution, but nobody had a clue how much cash would be required to fund the annuity they had just promised.  Now, they are in a serious bind, and have to sell their building to keep their word.

"Most" was an incorrect statement on my part.


----------



## Huntinfool

> All I am really advocating for is checks and balances.



Me too.  One elder checks the other...and another balances it.

There are five in our church.  Why do we need more checks than four men checking the decision of another?

If an elder led church is set up biblically, there is no need for congregational checks (outside of pesonal mistrust and pride).


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> What is your basis for qualification?  Godliness, experience, results?
> 
> Sounds to me like you would be the type of guy I would want on the finance team.



I was...and I was a very angry, jaded, bitter man who had very little (if any) relationship with Christ.  They would have said I was a "good guy" and a "good christian"...I was niether and I pushed the other members on the team towards what were probably some very ungodly decisions.

Not a single thing I did on that team was bathed in prayer.  That is why THEY were more qualified than ME....regardless of my education.

My point is that education does not cause you to make good financial decisions in "God's economy" (I hate that phrase...but I guess it fits here).  All education helps you do is make what appear to be good decisions according to the world.  Without the guidance of the HS, you'll fail.

That is why congregational authority is dangerous.  As RJ pointed out, there are too many non- or immature christians out there who will make ungodly decisions if you let them.

So, even though I LOOKED like the type of guy you would want on a finance team...I definitely was not.  And that's my point.


----------



## Ronnie T

I thank God that I have never been associated with any church, any church, that had people in leadership who conducted themselves like some described in this thread.

How is it possible that I've never experienced it, yet other's see nothing but it?  
Why do some see nothing but bad in the organized church?  

Why?  It doesn't not make sense.

I do know a person or two who has never met a preacher or pastor that they liked.  They always complained and gossipped and worked to run every preacher out of town.  Always just a matter of time.  Eventually these people will begin nitpicking the preacher and spreading their poison throughout the church.

I knew a man who got angry because two pews were removed to help give more leg room.  So he left the church.  Never returned to church again, for the remainder of his life.  And he bad-mouthed the church for the rest of his life.

I know, and still contend with an evil church attender who "thought" I was responsible for something happening at church in times past (What she thought happened didn't even happen!).  She harrassed me and gossipped about me for several months.  I was involved in several confrontations because of her.  I was forced to take it, cause that's just the way it goes.  It all goes with the turf.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> There's not resistance to accountability.  But you cannot make the case that the elders are to be accountable to the church in very many areas (biblically I mean).  It's just not there.  They are the authority.  They are in charge.  They lead and they make the decisions.  That is pretty cut and dry biblically.



When you question an individual's motives for wanting to understand the finances of an operation, you are resiting accountability.

That being said, I have been quite clear that I do not think every decision should be handled by the congregation....that's what elders are for.  I get that they are in charge.  Have never argued against that.



Huntinfool said:


> It's not as if the elders in the biblical text made a decision and then ran it out there to feel the church out for how they felt about it.....is it?



Nope.   But they were selected by the body.  One might assume they were understood to be men of esteem within their community.  Such esteem, I believe, comes from a long period of living "above reproach" and with personal integrity.



Huntinfool said:


> Let's go OT.  How bout if Moses (who had been given authority over Isreal) had said "We're going through the desert...God has given me a vision.  We'll probably spend, oh, say 40 years or so out there and I have no plan for food or water.  How do y'all feel about that?  Anybody object?  Yes?....ok, well I guess we won't do that."



That wasn't the church.



Huntinfool said:


> JB, the fact is that whether you like it or not, God is still in the "vision" business.  You seem to mock that a good bit (or at the very least doubt it).  Elders are not elders in title only.  They are authority in the church.  They are given high responsibility by both the church and by God and they are held to a high level of accountability by God.



I think the vision is the NT.  It tells us what to do and how to do it.  PErsonally, I do not believe we have OT style prophets anymore.  That being the case, I do not really buy into the "vision" stuff.

I do get that elders are the authority.  But, I quesiton their integrity when they allow things to happen that are clearly non-biblical.  Shouldn't the NT be our "line in the sand?"  When you have a group of folks letting people be fired over hear-say, then everything else comes into question.  If that happens, am I supposed to fight for what is right, or pack up and find a new family?



Huntinfool said:


> But they are not accountable to you and me for eveyr decision they make.  They just are not biblically.



I don't think they are either.



Huntinfool said:


> You told RJ you could make the case that they are.  I'd be very interested to see how well you could make that case.



What post are you referencing?  

But here is a stab at it......

Elder determines to "affirm" the head pastor's decision to fire a man because they heard the man is not "on board with the vision."  Congregation decides that the biblical mandate of meeting in person with a witness, then bringing the grief before the elders was not followed.  As such, biblical principles were disregarded.

The congregation then can decide whether or not they want to be under the leadership of an elder who would do such a thing.  They can either leave, or work to make it better.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I was...and I was a very angry, jaded, bitter man who had very little (if any) relationship with Christ.  They would have said I was a "good guy" and a "good christian"...I was niether and I pushed the other members on the team towards what were probably some very ungodly decisions.
> 
> Not a single thing I did on that team was bathed in prayer.  That is why THEY were more qualified than ME....regardless of my education.
> 
> My point is that education does not cause you to make good financial decisions in "God's economy" (I hate that phrase...but I guess it fits here).  All education helps you do is make what appear to be good decisions according to the world.  Without the guidance of the HS, you'll fail.
> 
> That is why congregational authority is dangerous.  As RJ pointed out, there are too many non- or immature christians out there who will make ungodly decisions if you let them.
> 
> So, even though I LOOKED like the type of guy you would want on a finance team...I definitely was not.  And that's my point.



Point well made, and taken.


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> I thank God that I have never been associated with any church, any church, that had people in leadership who conducted themselves like some described in this thread.
> 
> How is it possible that I've never experienced it, yet other's see nothing but it?
> Why do some see nothing but bad in the organized church?
> 
> Why?  It doesn't not make sense.
> 
> I do know a person or two who has never met a preacher or pastor that they liked.  They always complained and gossipped and worked to run every preacher out of town.  Always just a matter of time.  Eventually these people will begin nitpicking the preacher and spreading their poison throughout the church.
> 
> I knew a man who got angry because two pews were removed to help give more leg room.  So he left the church.  Never returned to church again, for the remainder of his life.  And he bad-mouthed the church for the rest of his life.
> 
> I know, and still contend with an evil church attender who "thought" I was responsible for something happening at church in times past (What she thought happened didn't even happen!).  She harrassed me and gossipped about me for several months.  I was involved in several confrontations because of her.  I was forced to take it, cause that's just the way it goes.  It all goes with the turf.



Ronnie, two of my closest friends are preachers.  I have a brother who is a preacher.  I am not "anti-preacher."  But the things I have described are real.

What then?  I spent most of my afternoon yesterday with some very Godly men and women who were basically doing everything they could to get me back in "a church," "any church."  I gave them many of the same arguments I present on here.  And described how my church visiting experience has gone.

I want a "church family."  Very badly, more than that, I would love to expereince the community many on here have described.  However, I want it to be real.  I am done being fake, and calling a group my "family" when they will easily discard me.

One of my close preacher friends and I disagree on many, many things, but we still love each other like family.   I do not believe disagreement should lead to discord.  It is a human flaw that it often does.  I would be ok with not getting my way, in most things, but I am not ok with my thoughts being irrelevant......does that make sense?


----------



## Ronnie T

It does make sense.

What if you're an elder and every decision you make results in elevan people pounding their opinion at you about how they think it should have been done?
How does an elder even attempt to satisfy everyone if there's always five or six who disagreed with what the elder's decided to do on a particular situation.  And they are always there complaining everytime there's a decision made?

If often gets to the point that elders have to do what prayer has led them to do and pray that the congregation will prayerfully join to support each decision.

It's just tough to keep worldly thinking out of church functioning.
The church doesn't function by worldly schedules and goals.  Often, church leaders are forced to do what's best for Christ and ignore all distractions.

I was with a church once that had a man who would disagree with everything I suggested.  Didn't matter what it was, he would disagree with me.  Once I realized that, I always got someone else to bring subjects up rather than myself.  It worked like a charm.  The individual would easily agree with someone else, but not agree with me.   Go figger!


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> What if you're an elder and every decision you make results in elevan people pounding their opinion at you about how they think it should have been done?
> How does an elder even attempt to satisfy everyone if there's always five or six who disagreed with what the elder's decided to do on a particular situation.  And they are always there complaining everytime there's a decision made?



I don't know what the answer is there, outside understanding that the point should not be to satisfy people other than doing what is right.  I recognize that many things get blown out of proportion, and many good people are hurt by the mindless idiots who seem to enjoy stirring the pot.

.....but what does a man do when we are not discussing minutia?  What about when very basic premises, such as conflict resolution, are not followed according to the Bible.  That's mroe what I have problems with.  I don't really care whether we sit in pews or chairs, or if we have stained glass windows, or no windows at all (modern trend).

Believe it or not, I am relatively easy going, and, once I involve myself, my intention is to work as hard as I possibly can to help.



Ronnie T said:


> If often gets to the point that elders have to do what prayer has led them to do and pray that the congregation will prayerfully join to support each decision.



I believe that should be the initial response.  If an elder was chosen by the congregation, then that elder should do what an elder does....lead.  However, in many circumstances, elders are chosen by the elders, or the pastor.  Many congregations really don't care about that stuff as long as they are entertained.



Ronnie T said:


> It's just tough to keep worldly thinking out of church functioning.
> The church doesn't function by worldly schedules and goals.  Often, church leaders are forced to do what's best for Christ and ignore all distractions.



I agree.



			
				Ronnie T said:
			
		

> I was with a church once that had a man who would disagree with everything I suggested.  Didn't matter what it was, he would disagree with me.  Once I realized that, I always got someone else to bring subjects up rather than myself.  It worked like a charm.  The individual would easily agree with someone else, but not agree with me.   Go figger!



I know you think I am probably just like that fella.  But, I am not.  I really have no way of proving that.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> How do the elders become elders?  Are they selected by the pastor, the elders, or the congregation?



I think you either have the congregation affirm those chosen by the current elders (whether that be in public or private).  



JB0704 said:


> Once they become elders, what is their role?  Is it to exercise Godly wisdom and discretion, or to affirm the will of the pastor?



The only role of the elder is to exercise Godly wisdom and discretion.  To merely affirm the will of the pastor?....No...that is not an elder's job.



JB0704 said:


> And I don't understand the resistance to accountability.  It looks like the leaders don't trust the followers, but they want the followers to trust the leaders.



No...I don't think that is the case.  Think of it like any other company.  You don't know what your boss is making salary wise.  There are just some things that everybody doesn't need to know.

Of the Godly elders I know...they go through more pain and heartache at the expense of the "church" than anyone else I know.  They don't do it for the pay....they do it because they believe they've been called by God for that duty and they are fulfilling that call.



Huntinfool said:


> Me too.  One elder checks the other...and another balances it.
> 
> There are five in our church.  Why do we need more checks than four men checking the decision of another?



Kinda reminds me of Sarbanes-Oxley....or Dodd-Frank.  No matter how many controls you have in place, collusion can over-ride them all.  Also, mistakes will happen just because we're all human.  No reason to create more process and policy to fix something that can't be fixed.



Ronnie T said:


> I was with a church once that had a man who would disagree with everything I suggested.  Didn't matter what it was, he would disagree with me.  Once I realized that, I always got someone else to bring subjects up rather than myself.  It worked like a charm.  The individual would easily agree with someone else, but not agree with me.   Go figger!



Do you have multiple screen names on here Ronnie?


----------



## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> I don't know what the answer is there, outside understanding that the point should not be to satisfy people other than doing what is right.  I recognize that many things get blown out of proportion, and many good people are hurt by the mindless idiots who seem to enjoy stirring the pot.
> 
> .....but what does a man do when we are not discussing minutia?  What about when very basic premises, such as conflict resolution, are not followed according to the Bible.  That's mroe what I have problems with.  I don't really care whether we sit in pews or chairs, or if we have stained glass windows, or no windows at all (modern trend).
> 
> Believe it or not, I am relatively easy going, and, once I involve myself, my intention is to work as hard as I possibly can to help.
> 
> 
> 
> I believe that should be the initial response.  If an elder was chosen by the congregation, then that elder should do what an elder does....lead.  However, in many circumstances, elders are chosen by the elders, or the pastor.  Many congregations really don't care about that stuff as long as they are entertained.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree.
> 
> 
> 
> I know you think I am probably just like that fella.  But, I am not.  I really have no way of proving that.



No sir!  I wouldn't even venture to give an opinion of your situations.  But I would venture to say that more than once you probably haven't gotten the 'whole' story in a particular situation.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> Kinda reminds me of Sarbanes-Oxley....or Dodd-Frank.  No matter how many controls you have in place, collusion can over-ride them all.  Also, mistakes will happen just because we're all human.  No reason to create more process and policy to fix something that can't be fixed.



Oversight is one way to prevent collusion.  If elders check elders, it is easier to get 5 on board than 500....just saying.

I know SOX is a disaster.  

But, we don't need any more, or less, than the "regulations" we have in place.....the NT.  At some point, there has to be accountability to these standards, or the whole thing is a total mess.


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> But I would venture to say that more than once you probably haven't gotten the 'whole' story in a particular situation.



I have no way to prove it, but, as a principle, I get both sides before drawing a conclusion.  I pointed this out very early in this thread to head off the "you don't know the whole story" stuff. 

This may seem foreign to some on this board, but the "bad guys" in my stories typically defend their actions, as stated.  For instance, when they are approached about biblical conflict resolution when it comes to firing people, they say the firing is a business function of the church, and conflict resolution is a personal matter.  Elders being appointed by elders...well, them's the rules in many circumstances.  

You are kind-of saying I listen to a bunch of gossip, and if I did, I would be dead wrong for drawing the conclusions I have.  Fortunately, I am a bit too cynical about all people to draw conclusions based on one side.


----------



## Tim L

JB0704 said:


> .....everything that made me leave is still there.
> 
> I was sitting in a pew in a "contemporary" Methodist church a few Sundays ago, listening to the techno music they play before the service starts, and I looked around and saw a lot of folks patiently waiting for the "music pastor" to come on stage and do his best Hillsong impression.  I couldn't help but wonder what I am missing.  What do all these folks see that I don't.  Because, for me, I fell dirty just being there....because it all seems so "canned."  Kind-of like "packaged Jesus for your viewing pleasure."
> 
> It occurred to me that what bothers me the most about church is the congregants' willingness to put up with things they don't like just to say they go to church.  I have a whole list of things that are incorrect with the modern church, and most folks do, but they overlook it all for some reason.
> 
> So, afterward, I asked my wife a few questions, and if any of you have ever pondered these thoughts, please chime in your conclusion....
> 
> "What have we accomplished by attending?"
> 
> "What are the positives and negatives, and do the positives outweigh the negatives?"
> 
> "If I compromise principle to attend (as in, put up with things I know are wrong), and I really being the leader I am supposed to be?"
> 
> I would appreciate input from y'all.



What your describing (in most cases) is good moral people striving for good works, playing church, a typical large UMC, a church of the world...Thats why I finally left the UMC early last year and have not looked back.....It's not just a UMC problem but it is all too common there...


----------



## 1gr8bldr

I think part of the problem is that elders are not always elders. Seems the church has to turn over every rock in order to find someone. This causes younger men, less experienced in the ways of life, to have to serve. Many of those younger are still trying to gain favor with the world rather than having experienced the world and realize that some decissions are hard, unpopular, but entirely in the best interest of the church. The older you get, the less influenced you are by your piers or by an overzealous preacher trying to build his kingdom. Kind of like raising my kids. I make decissions that I know are in their best interest, as unpopular as they may be. In a perfect church situation, I would rather turn those responsibilities over to a wise, God fearing, spiritual man, A "church father figure" you might say. But all to often, in the religious circles that I have been in, these were young men, climbing the ladder of rank, aiming to receiving honor from their piers, easily swayed by the offcourse direction of the pastor, who had church growth as an agenda. Growth is great, assuming it is a well rounded, healthy church. But to often, it is the central theme. A motive to fill the seats. Whatever music it takes, whatever it takes to get them in to listen to his wise message he has prepared, only to repeat it again, same time next week. All the while, neglecting the biblical potential of helping the poor, feeding the hungry, etc. Sure, they may have a mens group, that does something once a year


----------



## 1gr8bldr

The last deacon board I served on, were good men who wished with all their heart to serve the church. All of which used the bible as a devotional, and actually knew very little about what was in it. But, in my opinion, the decissions that prevailed were reasonable.  While we are pondering these things, and hopefully reflecting on how to better serve the church, let me give 2 examples. One chairman, thought that his way was always right. Had to be his way. He would work the group until they gave in or agreed. He always got his way. A hard working man, always the one you could count on when something broke. First one there to check the temperature, etc. You get the picture. Yet his involvment did not give him the right to rule. Another, A man very much less involved that the first, served as chairman. He almost played neutral in every aspect, and worked the group to get the consenus of the group. Each voiced his own thoughts, and each man heard the thoughts of the others from which we either reafirmed or changed our own opinion. This was how it should be done. I respect both men equally. But one was a better chairman


----------



## JB0704

1gr8bldr said:


> I think part of the problem is that elders are not always elders. Seems the church has to turn over every rock in order to find someone. This causes younger men, less experienced in the ways of life, to have to serve. Many of those younger are still trying to gain favor with the world rather than having experienced the world and realize that some decissions are hard, unpopular, but entirely in the best interest of the church. The older you get, the less influenced you are by your piers or by an overzealous preacher trying to build his kingdom. Kind of like raising my kids. I make decissions that I know are in their best interest, as unpopular as they may be. In a perfect church situation, I would rather turn those responsibilities over to a wise, God fearing, spiritual man, A "church father figure" you might say. But all to often, in the religious circles that I have been in, these were young men, climbing the ladder of rank, aiming to receiving honor from their piers, easily swayed by the offcourse direction of the pastor, who had church growth as an agenda. Growth is great, assuming it is a well rounded, healthy church. But to often, it is the central theme. A motive to fill the seats. Whatever music it takes, whatever it takes to get them in to listen to his wise message he has prepared, only to repeat it again, same time next week. All the while, neglecting the biblical potential of helping the poor, feeding the hungry, etc. Sure, they may have a mens group, that does something once a year



Nailed it!  What I didn't mention in previous discussion with HF about "qualified elders," is that often, particularly with new churches, the "elders" are the founding pastor's friends.  You can have guys very early in life serving in a capacity beyond their status and qualifications.  I have seen this alot, and it was what I was referring to in discussion about qualification.

Now, the church which sent me over the edge, it had a strange elder mix.  Some retired military, some business men, relatives of the head pastor, and the head pastor.  Most of these men were way beyond me in spiritual wisdom.  However, they went along with some of the most un-biblical actions, it just made me scratch my head a bit.


----------



## hobbs27

JB0704 said:


> Most of these men were way beyond me in spiritual wisdom.  However, they went along with some of the most un-biblical actions, it just made me scratch my head a bit.



You give these men too much credit and yourself not enough.Wisdom comes from the fear of God.Knowledge of Gods word is meaningless without wisdom.To commit un-biblical actions is to show no fear of God.
 This scripture is for those kind of people.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord,Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name Have cast out devils?and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


----------



## Ronnie T

With all the devestating problems this thread is pointing out in all of Christ's church no wonder so few people are searching for Jesus Christ.
It dawns on me that if we could get rid all of the present-day church leaders, and replace them with the very wise church members who do nothing be complain and beat up on the church and it's leaders over, and over, and over, and over, then the church would finally become what it is suppose to be, and all it's problems will be solved.

auhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.  Peace in the Lord's church.


----------



## 1gr8bldr

Ever pondered why so much disunity?  If we as the church are supposed to be one in the same Spirit, what is wrong? Within about every fellowship I have known, was something. Serious question? Wonder why?


----------



## Ronnie T

George was 48 years old, married, with two children. One Sunday morning, George told his wife he wasn’t going to church. "First," he said, "I’m tired. Second, the people there at church obviously don’t like me." But George’s wife refused to allow her husband to get away with this sort of attitude.  "George," she said, "you have to go. First, we always worship on Sunday. Second, it doesn’t matter whether they like us or not.  Family's need to be at worhip on the Lord's day.   And third, you are the pastor!"


----------



## JB0704

1gr8bldr said:


> Ever pondered why so much disunity?  If we as the church are supposed to be one in the same Spirit, what is wrong? Within about every fellowship I have known, was something. Serious question? Wonder why?



I don't know.  But it is always fun watching folks run other folks out of church to defend their unity


----------



## JB0704

Ronnie T said:


> George was 48 years old, married, with two children. One Sunday morning, George told his wife he wasn’t going to church. "First," he said, "I’m tired. Second, the people there at church obviously don’t like me." But George’s wife refused to allow her husband to get away with this sort of attitude.  "George," she said, "you have to go. First, we always worship on Sunday. Second, it doesn’t matter whether they like us or not.  Family's need to be at worhip on the Lord's day.   And third, you are the pastor!"



Mr. Ronnie, I know y'all have it rough, being in leadership.  I didn't want this thread to become or be a "bash the church" thread.  I apologize if you feel as if I think all church leaders are bad.  Never my intent.


----------



## Ronnie T

After the church service a little boy told the pastor, "When I grow up, I'm going to give you some money." "Well, thank you," the pastor replied, "but why?" "Because my daddy says you're one of the poorest preachers we've ever had."


I wonder how many children have learned that from their parents?


----------



## Ronnie T

The young couple invited their elderly preacher for Sunday dinner. While they were in the kitchen preparing the meal, the minister asked their son what they were having. "Goat," the little boy replied.
"Goat?" replied the startled man of the cloth, "Are you sure about that?"
"Yep," said the youngster. "I heard Dad say to Mom, 'Today is just as good as any to have the old goat for dinner.'"


----------



## Ronnie T

A site worth visiting and reading.

http://prentis-createdtogivegodglory.blogspot.com/2010/05/your-complaints-will-not-help-your.html



.


----------



## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> it is always fun watching folks run other folks out of church to defend their unity



...always very interesting to watch those who aren't part of a church family point out all the "problems" inside the church.

I often find myself talking to my wife about how this person or that person is messing up in their parenting or how this person is neglecting his wife's needs or how that person is too negative or too petty or gossips too much...

...and then I catch myself and God reminds me that I should probably go see a surgeon and get the plank in my eye removed...it's clouding my vision and is keeping me from seeing what's in the mirror.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ...always very interesting to watch those who aren't part of a church family point out all the "problems" inside the church.



See, now you've started getting personal......and we were getting along so well  

If you could, please inform me as to what a person in my shoes should do when we have questions such as the ones that I have which will not offend the sensibilities of the well connected inhabitants of our fine local churches?

Isn't this what the forum is for?

So, which problem did I list is not actually a problem?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ...always very interesting to watch those who aren't part of a church family point out all the "problems" inside the church.



I was there long enough, fella.  Lot's of folks see what I am talking about.  Just not too many give a crap about doing anything about it, as long as they are entertained......


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

City On The Hill 

Did you hear of the city on the hill
Said one old man to the other
It once shined bright, and it would be shining still
But they all started turning on each other

You see the poets thought the dancers were shallow
And the soldiers thought the poets were weak
And the elders saw the young ones as foolish
And the rich man never heard the poor man speak

But one by one, they ran away
With their made up minds to leave it all behind
And the light began to fade 
In the City on the Hill, the City on the Hill

Each one thought that they knew better
But they were different by design
Instead of standing strong together
They let their differences divide

And one by one, they ran away
With their made up minds to leave it all behind
And the light began to fade 
In the City on the Hill, the City on the Hill

And the world is searching still

But it was the rhythm of the dancers
That gave the poets life
It was the spirit of the poets
That gave the soldiers strength to fight
It was fire of the young ones
It was the wisdom of the old
It was the story of the poor man
That needed to be told

It is the rhythm of the dancers
That gives the poets life
It is the spirit of the poets
That gives the soldiers strength to fight
It is fire of the young ones
It is the wisdom of the old
It is the story of the poor man
That's needing to be told

But one by one will we run away
With our made up minds to leave it all behind
As the light begins to fade in the City on the Hill

One by one will we run away
With our made up minds to leave it all behind
As the light begins to fade in the City on the Hill
The city on the hill 

Come home
And the Father's calling still
Come home
To the city on the hill
Come home


----------



## Huntinfool

> See, now you've started getting personal......and we were getting along so well



That wasn't personal at all.  You pointed out how entertaining it was to watch church people run others out in the name of unity...and I pointed out how interesting it was that those who aren't part of a church somehow see the church most clearly for what it is...a den of problems.




> If you could, please inform me as to what a person in my shoes should do when we have questions such as the ones that I have which will not offend the sensibilities of the well connected inhabitants of our fine local churches?



I'm glad you ask these questions.  I've never said you shouldn't have I?  I'm not offended by the questions at all.  

It's very easy to see the flaws in other people...or organizations for that matter, huh?




> So, which problem did I list is not actually a problem?



None is never a problem.  Sin will be a problem until Christ returns.


----------



## JB0704

Then I clearly misunderstood.  I viewed the fact that problems was in "" incorrectly.  Please, accept my most sincere and humble apologies for my ill concieved rant.


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> City On The Hill
> 
> Did you hear of the city on the hill
> Said one old man to the other
> It once shined bright, and it would be shining still
> But they all started turning on each other
> 
> You see the poets thought the dancers were shallow
> And the soldiers thought the poets were weak
> And the elders saw the young ones as foolish
> And the rich man never heard the poor man speak
> 
> But one by one, they ran away
> With their made up minds to leave it all behind
> And the light began to fade
> In the City on the Hill, the City on the Hill
> 
> Each one thought that they knew better
> But they were different by design
> Instead of standing strong together
> They let their differences divide
> 
> And one by one, they ran away
> With their made up minds to leave it all behind
> And the light began to fade
> In the City on the Hill, the City on the Hill
> 
> And the world is searching still
> 
> But it was the rhythm of the dancers
> That gave the poets life
> It was the spirit of the poets
> That gave the soldiers strength to fight
> It was fire of the young ones
> It was the wisdom of the old
> It was the story of the poor man
> That needed to be told
> 
> It is the rhythm of the dancers
> That gives the poets life
> It is the spirit of the poets
> That gives the soldiers strength to fight
> It is fire of the young ones
> It is the wisdom of the old
> It is the story of the poor man
> That's needing to be told
> 
> But one by one will we run away
> With our made up minds to leave it all behind
> As the light begins to fade in the City on the Hill
> 
> One by one will we run away
> With our made up minds to leave it all behind
> As the light begins to fade in the City on the Hill
> The city on the hill
> 
> Come home
> And the Father's calling still
> Come home
> To the city on the hill
> Come home



Well timed.  Interesting.

Perhaps we should start a thread on the concept of unity......


----------



## Huntinfool

> I was there long enough, fella. Lot's of folks see what I am talking about. Just not too many give a crap about doing anything about it, as long as they are entertained......




Lots of folks do see what you're talking about.  You're right.  

It's a shame you can't see what the rest of us are talking about.  Most churches are more than glorified concert halls looking to sell as many tickets as possible.

I think it would help me if you could possibly list out a few things that you've seen in some of the churches you've visited that were positive and possibly made you want to stay and check things out for a while.  I've not read any that I can recall.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Then I clearly misunderstood. I viewed the fact that problems was in "" incorrectly. Please, accept my most sincere and humble apologies for my ill concieved rant.



All I mean is that you (and others) see them as problems that keep you from even participating....I see them as opportunities for growth and opportunities to serve.

"Problem" is all about perspective....don't you think?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> It's a shame you can't see what the rest of us are talking about.  Most churches are more than glorified concert halls looking to sell as many tickets as possible.



Gotta hand it to ya', you have my perspective nailed.  I just wish I could somehow convince you, RJ, F1, and Ronnie that I do try to see it another way.



Huntinfool said:


> I think it would help me if you could possibly list out a few things that you've seen in some of the churches you've visited that were positive and possibly made you want to stay and check things out for a while.  I've not read any that I can recall.



I like the idea of the musicians not being the focus of the worship.  Haven't visited that church yet, but am very much looking forward to it.

The church in the OP, I got a sense that the minister had a huge heart for his people.  It was not expository preaching, it was topical, but accurate as far as I could tell.

I visited one contemporary church that was truly "elder led."  The preaching was expository.  The people seemed to have a "purity" in their appreciation of one another.  My favorite part of that church was that they did things that other "contemporary" churches would have thought were "lame," such as hand out bread.

I enjoyed hearing hymns at the traditional churches I visited.....it had been a while.

I like the outreach ministries which focus on the poor in the community.

I like the outreach inistries which focus on the "un-cool" folks, like older singles or divorcees.

There is more, I am certain.  But this thread would have been very boring if the topic was all what I like.  My questions tend to be more toward the negative.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> All I mean is that you (and others) see them as problems that keep you from even participating....I see them as opportunities for growth and opportunities to serve.
> 
> "Problem" is all about perspective....don't you think?



Good thoughts.  Reminds me of a time I had to do some IT work for a large local church, and all the problems were referred to as "challenges."  It made conversation much more polite.

I stayed away because I am safer away.  My family is safer away.  If I found what you, F1, RJ, Ronnie seem to have, I would be less hesitant to jump back in.  

And, the problem is only an opportunity if somebody cares enough to take on that challenge.  Otherwise, the person who sees the opportunity becomes a "naysayer," and in the name of unity, asked to leave.


----------



## formula1

JB0704 said:


> Well timed.  Interesting.
> 
> Perhaps we should start a thread on the concept of unity......



All the threads in the world won't open the ears of the calloused no matter the argument, but when the 'I' is gone in favor of Christ, lives are transfomed. That's really all I got to say! God bless!


----------



## JB0704

formula1 said:


> All the threads in the world won't open the ears of the calloused no matter the argument, but when the 'I' is gone in favor of Christ, lives are transfomed. That's really all I got to say! God bless!



Thread killer.....


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## Michael F. Gray

Visited one of those so called "contemporary" churches once when on vacation out of state with a family member. The racket wasn't what I believe glorifies the Lord, and the folks appeared like they were attired for the beach. Not for me. When I go to the Lord's House, I enter the house of the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. When I was younger I was blessed to have a meal in the White House with the Vice President. Nobody had to tell me to get my shirt cleaned and pressed, or to shine my shoes. I just knew I should. How much more should we adorn ourselves with our best to enter the Lord's House. Not a dressing contest, ...just offering our best. I have attended a fundamental Christian Church since 1976. Nothing is played or sung unless approved in advance by the choir director. No loud drums, or metal sound, but old fashioned gospel songs. Now, ...that's what's for me and mine. If you fit somewhere else with something else, fine. The important thing is worship the Almighty in a place, and in a manner you believe right. To many folks are just looking for an excuse to stay out of Church. There are enough churches you can find one you like.


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## formula1

JB0704 said:


> Thread killer.....



Sorry!


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