# No reason for gays in Church



## Double Barrel BB (Jun 13, 2007)

No reason for gays in Church
Wednesday, June 13, 2007

The Belfast Telegraph (June 5) quotes the Presbyterian Moderator, Dr John Finlay, as saying: "There would be no reason for not having (homosexuals) as (church) members."

The Holy Spirit describes male and female homosexuality as 'vile affections' and a shameful 'lust' that is 'against nature' (Rom. 1:26-27). 

Jesus Christ declares that homosexuals, fornicators, idolaters, thieves, etc, are not citizens of His kingdom (I Cor 6:9-10).

Therefore, any impenitent homosexual church member must be excommunicated, like the incestuous man in I Corinthians 5.

If the Lord Jesus excludes homosexuals from the Church of which He is the head, why does the Moderator see no reason why they cannot be members of the Presbyterian Church?


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## Festus (Jun 13, 2007)

Many of us believe that Jesus is a lot more understanding, loving and forgiving than some others believe. 
Besides...if you ban sinners from your church who would you have left?


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

If this post is about a homosexual person that is openly practicing it and refuses to confess and repent, then no way should that person be a member in good standing of the Church. The Bible is clear on Church discipline.

If the post is about a repentent homosexual person who has confessed then that person should be allowed to re-join the congregation.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 13, 2007)

I think the key word in that whole post is impenitent or un-repentant. I wish my church was full of gays as well as all other types of sinners-  as long as they hear the salvation message of Jesus Christ and repent of their sin, give up their homosexual lifestyle and live their lives for Christ.


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

Festus said:


> Besides...if you ban sinners from your church who would you have left?



That's the truth. However, there is a difference between a Christian who sins and then repents of that sin versus a Christian who knowingly and continually committs a sin with no thought of repentence.


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## Festus (Jun 13, 2007)

PWalls said:


> That's the truth. However, there is a difference between a Christian who sins and then repents of that sin versus a Christian who knowingly and continually committs a sin with no thought of repentence.



True...but shouldn't God make that determination instead of us?


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

Festus said:


> True...but shouldn't God make that determination instead of us?



Paul details our actions in the New Testament on how to deal with discipline. Very specific. One on one and then group on one and then finally Church discipline. The point being that by the time you get there, it is very clear as to the nature of the repentence or lack thereof. Rarely do churches ever practice discipline because it rarely gets to that point before repentence is made.


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## elfiii (Jun 13, 2007)

No Christian is fully repentant. We continue to sin, even though we say we will not.



			
				festus said:
			
		

> Besides...if you ban sinners from your church who would you have left?



Pretty good point.


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

elfiii said:


> No Christian is fully repentant. We continue to sin, even though we say we will not.



I think the point we can agree on is a willful continuation of the same sin with no regards for repentence.

And, yes, there was no perfect man except one.


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## Lead Poison (Jun 13, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> I think the key word in that whole post is impenitent or un-repentant. I wish my church was full of gays as well as all other types of sinners-  *as long as they hear the salvation message of Jesus Christ and repent of their sin, give up their homosexual lifestyle and live their lives for Christ*.



Allow them in ONLY if they repent. Otherwise, it is NOT acceptable to have a homosexual supporting and practicing homosexuality in church.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 13, 2007)

*LOL*



Lead Poison said:


> Allow them in ONLY if they repent. Otherwise, it is NOT acceptable to have a homosexual supporting and practicing homosexuality in church.



They prolly do it in their bedrooms Monday through Saturday as opposed to in church...the same MO as the adulterers that attend every Sunday.    

Just an observation...I am prolly wrong though.


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## Randy (Jun 13, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> I think the key word in that whole post is impenitent or un-repentant. I wish my church was full of gays as well as all other types of sinners-  as long as they hear the salvation message of Jesus Christ and repent of their sin, give up their homosexual lifestyle and live their lives for Christ.



Amen!


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

In my Bible, iI Corinthians 6:9 refers to adulturers, not fornicators.

Aren't all the remarried divorcees adulturers by Biblical standards.  Being as they are referred to in the same verse as "homosexual offenders", shouldn't they all be held to the same standard?


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> In my Bible, iI Corinthians 6:9 refers to adulturers, not fornicators.
> 
> Aren't all the remarried divorcees adulturers by Biblical standards.  Being as they are referred to in the same verse as "homosexual offenders", shouldn't they all be held to the same standard?



Divorce is a subject I do not have a good handle on and am still studying it in my Bible and praying for understanding as to what God means. Jesus only ever gave one legitimate reason for divorce. Fornication. Divorce for any other reason to my understanding is still a sin. But, how do you repent for it if for any other reason? Ask for forgiveness and still stay divorced? As for forgiveness and try and get back together?


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 13, 2007)

*Yeah*



Twenty five ought six said:


> In my Bible, iI Corinthians 6:9 refers to adulturers, not fornicators.
> 
> Aren't all the remarried divorcees adulturers by Biblical standards.  Being as they are referred to in the same verse as "homosexual offenders", shouldn't they all be held to the same standard?



But what if those divorcees had repented for getting divorced and remarried?  By your standards, would not their sins be forgiven?  Once forgiven then they would no longer be adulterers right?  

I have read repeatedly that forgiveness is but a prayer away...


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

> Once forgiven then they would no longer be adulterers right?



Not until they committed adultry again.  (I'm extrapolating from some of the comments above).  And then if they repented with the idea of continuing to commit adultry, then it's really not repentance.  According to some of the commentary above, you can't repent a sin and remain in the "state" of that sin at the same time.  According to Biblical definitions, the remarried divorcees are in a constant state of adultry.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

> Jesus only ever gave one legitimate reason for divorce.



Not really.  

You can divorce your spouse if he or she is an unbeliever:



> 15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 1


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 13, 2007)

*Oh well*



Twenty five ought six said:


> Not until they committed adultry again.  (I'm extrapolating from some of the comments above).  And then if they repented with the idea of continuing to commit adultry, then it's really not repentance.  According to some of the commentary above, you can't repent a sin and remain in the "state" of that sin at the same time.  According to Biblical definitions, the remarried divorcees are in a constant state of adultry.



How do they continue to commit adultery if they ask and receive forgiveness for the sin of divorce?

I thought blasphemy was the one unforgivable sin.

It is this type of thing that has kept me out of church for many many years.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

> sin of divorce



Divorce isn't a sin.  According to the Bible, remarriage after divorce is.  

We were referring to adultry and no one said that it was unforgivable .

I  quote from above:



> Allow them in ONLY if they repent. Otherwise, it is NOT acceptable to have a homosexual supporting and practicing homosexuality in church.



Now take this statement, substitute "adulterer" for "homosexual" and "adultry" for "homosexuality", and tell me where you are.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 13, 2007)

*Well*

I guess for as long as I am able I will be committing adultery every chance I get by the standards you have presented.

I am not about to accept the human interpretation presented here that I am a sinner because I was divorced the first time (from a woman that committed adultery with another man whilst married to me) and then I chose to remarry wherein both of us have been faithful.

Just a difference of interpretation of the Bible, spirituality, religion and church...


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## DaGris (Jun 13, 2007)

mmmmm......has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice. Yes, I'm sure there is some of them who just like it or just do it to rebel against thier parents but there are some who are just born that way. My sister in law is gay. She has never had any interest in a man, ever, even when she was very young. Yes, she looks like a woman, very pretty, and all of her pass girfriends and her current one are also very pretty. She is a member of our church, believes in god and knows jesus is her lord and savor. Will god look upon her one day and banish her?....I dont think so.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

> mmmmm......has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice.




Uhh Ohhhh


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

DaGris said:


> has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice.



It's a choice.


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Not really.
> 
> You can divorce your spouse if he or she is an unbeliever:




What scripture verse is that please that you posted.


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## jcarter (Jun 13, 2007)

PWalls said:


> It's a choice.



are you speaking from experience? were you once a homosexual but decided to become straight ? the gay people that i have known(male and female) say they have no more control over their attraction to the same sex as we have towards the opposite sex. how the lord judges them is between he and they and not you.


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## weakie (Jun 13, 2007)

How does the church decide on hermaphrodite's?

her·maph·ro·dite      /hÉœrËˆmæfrÉ™ËŒdaÉªt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[hur-maf-ruh-dahyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation 
–noun 1. an individual in which reproductive organs of both sexes are present. Compare pseudohermaphrodite.  


I am curious and not trying to start anything.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

> What scripture verse is that please that you posted.



I Corinthians 7:15

I'm fascinated by the idea of a non-believer being sanctified because their spouse is saved:



> 12To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.
> 
> 15But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?


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## Flash (Jun 13, 2007)

Double Barrel BB;1271431
The Belfast Telegraph (June 5) quotes the Presbyterian Moderator said:


> Double Barrel BB is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) not to have them as "MEMBERS" he's not saying deny the ability to attend.
> 
> Now what would we say if it was the hunting club and one of our fellow members spotlighted, poured corn, shot more than the limit, hunted out of your stand etc........


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 13, 2007)

> Now what would we say if it was the hunting club and one of our fellow members spotlighted, poured corn, shot more than the limit, hunted out of your stand etc........



 I would say they needed to go to church and pray.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jun 13, 2007)

Sure are a bunch of rules and regulations to go to church where some of you go. I believe that Jesus gave but one regualtion to be His child.

"...whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life."

I will always be a sinner but I will also always believe that Jesus was born of a Virgin, was crucified, died and buried. On the third day he rose again and his kingdom will have no end. 

Everything else is just details that men have used to manipulate the people.


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Jun 13, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> They prolly do it in their bedrooms Monday through Saturday as opposed to in church...the same MO as the adulterers that attend every Sunday.
> 
> Just an observation...I am prolly wrong though.



You're right!

Organized religion at it again, so lets just start another war  

I liked the sign I saw today "Alcohol is the enemy but the bible said love your enemy"  Frank Sinatra


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Jun 13, 2007)

DaGris said:


> mmmmm......has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice. Yes, I'm sure there is some of them who just like it or just do it to rebel against thier parents but there are some who are just born that way. My sister in law is gay. She has never had any interest in a man, ever, even when she was very young. Yes, she looks like a woman, very pretty, and all of her pass girfriends and her current one are also very pretty. She is a member of our church, believes in god and knows jesus is her lord and savor. Will god look upon her one day and banish her?....I dont think so.



I'm with you on that, God bless your sister


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Jun 13, 2007)

Why was a thread about  chickens pulled earlier today? (I never read it)
And this hateful thread attacking homosexuals - who were created in the image of God - allowed to stay?


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## FishFanatic (Jun 13, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I guess for as long as I am able I will be committing adultery every chance I get by the standards you have presented.
> 
> I am not about to accept the human interpretation presented here that I am a sinner because I was divorced the first time (from a woman that committed adultery with another man whilst married to me) and then I chose to remarry wherein both of us have been faithful.
> 
> Just a difference of interpretation of the Bible, spirituality, religion and church...



I wouldn't say you are still sinning/commiting adultery given your scenario.  I had the same scenario.  My first wife cheated on me with upwards of fifteen different men/women that I know of during our four years of marriage.  I divorced her, knowing that the Bible states adultry is a grounds for divorce.  And I have remarried.  I know for a fact that I'm not commiting adultery.


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## FishFanatic (Jun 13, 2007)

In regard to the homosexual issue, I tend to hold back on that.  I know the Bible says homosexuality is a sin.  So in that regard I see it as the same as all other sin.  I do my best not to see it as worse than the adulterer for example or the individual having sex out of wedlock.  Or whatever other sin you can think of.  
Now, I too wonder about the whole issue of whether or not it is by choice or something that a person is at birth.  Science has not proved either, but then there are people that I have heard of, like stated in one of the earlier posts, that they have always been attracted to the same sex.  If that is true, then yeah, it throws a wrench into the situation.  But then I know the power of God....and He would have no problem whatsoever changing a person's desires and attractions if that person were willing.  I've heard of people that He has done that for.   
As far as being a member of a church?  I don't know.  Attendence of course.  They can stay as long as they like.  I wouldn't want them teaching our Sunday school class...but I wouldn't want an adulter, sexually active individual outside of wedlock, thief, etc teaching that either.  Its a tough issue no doubt....and overall I'm much more comfortable just saying "I don't know...." .


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 13, 2007)

*Wow*



FishFanatic said:


> I wouldn't say you are still sinning/commiting adultery given your scenario.  I had the same scenario.  My first wife cheated on me with upwards of fifteen different men/women that I know of during our four years of marriage.  I divorced her, knowing that the Bible states adultry is a grounds for divorce.  And I have remarried.  I know for a fact that I'm not commiting adultery.



Thank you for sharing your similar story.  I feel pretty much the same as you about the situation.

I do not view myself as accountable for the actions of another under any circumstance such as we are discussing and I most assuredly do not think that denying one the right to be in a church to worship simply because they are remarried is a very prudent interpretation of the Bible.  At least the God I was raised to believe in would not tolerate turning anyone away for any reason.

Who knows?


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

jcarter said:


> are you speaking from experience? were you once a homosexual but decided to become straight ? the gay people that i have known(male and female) say they have no more control over their attraction to the same sex as we have towards the opposite sex. how the lord judges them is between he and they and not you.



Homosexuality is abhorring to God. Plain and simple Bible truth. You'll find it easily if you look.


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## PWalls (Jun 13, 2007)

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Why was a thread about  chickens pulled earlier today? (I never read it)
> And this hateful thread attacking homosexuals - who were created in the image of God - allowed to stay?



Becuase this is not a hateful thread attacking homosexuals.


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## 60Grit (Jun 13, 2007)

Hmmmm, I thought we were to love the sinner but hate the sin.
If we outcast every sinner from being able to walk through the doors of the church then it would be a mighty empty place.

I believe, once taught the word, one has the ability to ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus as his Lord and Savior, regardless of what their prior sins were. 

I guess gays are different????


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## jcarter (Jun 13, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Homosexuality is abhorring to God. Plain and simple Bible truth. You'll find it easily if you look.



im sure it is....but i dont remember it making the top ten lists of donts.   ..... thou shalt not be gay. ....then again coveting thy neighbors male servant might fit. ......but it is thrown in there with coveting his donkey. ....so im not sure it was meant in that context.......go back and read matthew 22..36-40.  try to follow those two teachings and you will be ok.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 13, 2007)

If you read these posts I don't think anyone would say that homosexuals cannot or should not come to church. We are talking about membership plain and simple. I also dont think that anyone is hating gays. DaGris, as far as your statement that your sis-in-law being homosexual and a Christian, biblically I have a hard time with that. I don't hate her or other homosexuals in any way though. I just don't agree, any more that I agree with other things that the bible calls sin.


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## 60Grit (Jun 13, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> If you read these posts I don't think anyone would say that homosexuals cannot or should not come to church. We are talking about membership plain and simple. I also dont think that anyone is hating gays. DaGris, as far as your statement that your sis-in-law being homosexual and a Christian, biblically I have a hard time with that. I don't hate her or other homosexuals in any way though. I just don't agree, any more that I agree with other things that the bible calls sin.


 
Quite an interesting quandry you present there.

Initially my thoughts were, if they want to be members then they have to abide by the teachings of the Bible and there is no way they could continue to practice the lifestyle they are living.

But then I thought, what if being gay was the only sin they had???

Then I thought, non-of us, those of us calling ourselves Christians and that are members of a church, are sin free.

I guess I have to leave this one up to God. My head tells me it's wrong but my heart tells me I am not qualified to judge this one.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 13, 2007)

Flash said:


> Double Barrel BB is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) not to have them as "MEMBERS" he's not saying deny the ability to attend.
> 
> Now what would we say if it was the hunting club and one of our fellow members spotlighted, poured corn, shot more than the limit, hunted out of your stand etc........


 

I haven't said anything... this is an article that was in a newspaper... I figured it would spark a good discussion so I posted it....

DB BB


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## PWalls (Jun 14, 2007)

60Grit said:


> I guess gays are different????



Of course gays are not different. Where do you see where anyone said that.

If a homosexual person trusts Jesus for their salvation and repents from their sin, then Hallelujah and praise the Lord. We will see them in Heaven.

Just like any other sin. If you repent and trust in Jesus, then you are saved.


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## PWalls (Jun 14, 2007)

jcarter said:


> go back and read matthew 22..36-40.  try to follow those two teachings and you will be ok.



I agree. Those are two awesome commandments. I do not "hate" homosexuals. I do not "love" the sin though.

What about the rest of Scripture? Read 2 Timothy 3:16. That verse says "ALL" Scripture. Not just bits and pieces. What about repentence, turning away from Sin.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Then I thought, non-of us, those of us calling ourselves Christians and that are members of a church, are sin free.
> 
> I guess I have to leave this one up to God. My head tells me it's wrong but my heart tells me I am not qualified to judge this one.



There seems to be a biblical misunderstanding of being in relationship with God on here. No one who is truly a Christian will claim to be sin free. 

In fact, I kinda think I am like Paul who said that he was "the chief of all sinners." 

We all sin everyday. But I don't commit the same sin everyday. I confess my sin everyday to stay in right relationship with God.(That's what scipture tells us to do)

Don't you understand? By no means am I sin free, but I get up every morning as a saved by grace child of God and my every intention is to go out and live a sin-free lifestyle that day. Sometimes I make it through my first cup of coffee, most of the time I don't. As God's children He sees us as justified before Him( Which means when God sees me it is just like I had never sinned) 

I am a sinner! But God has saved me. I refuse to committ the same sin every day or to live a lifestyle of sin. To do that is grievous  to the Holy Spirit of God

I do not believe you can be truly saved and live a lifestyle of sin and neither does God

Scripture is clear on this- I am not judging anyone by opinion, only by scipture. Scripture says you will know them by their fruits, if you refuse to repent from something that scripture clearly presents as sinful, you are not living a Christian life.


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## PWalls (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> There seems to be a biblical misunderstanding of being in relationship with God on here. No one who is truly a Christian will claim to be sin free.
> 
> In fact, I kinda think I am like Paul who said that he was "the chief of all sinners."
> 
> ...




Excellent post. Truth.


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## Vernon Holt (Jun 14, 2007)

Great Summary JM.  You nailed it.

As with every Christian individually, the Church has the great responsibility of zealously guarding it's testimony.  This is to say that if it has members who are living in open defiance of moral law, then the matter must be dealt with in a scriptural manner (previously dealt with).

If not adequately dealt with, such a matter will dininish the ability of a Church to carry out its commissioned role.

Every Church should hope that they would always have sinners, of every description, sitting in their pews under the sound of the Gospel.

*Members *of the Church living in open sin and rebellion is a separate and serious matter, and should be dealt with accordingly.


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## SBG (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> There seems to be a biblical misunderstanding of being in relationship with God on here. No one who is truly a Christian will claim to be sin free.
> 
> In fact, I kinda think I am like Paul who said that he was "the chief of all sinners."
> 
> ...



Excellent post!


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 14, 2007)

I thought that homosexuality was abhorent, until  someone I loved and had helped raise discovered they were gay.  I believed this was a choice of lifestyle.
Now I am not so sure and I have learned to hold my tongue when the jokes and remarks are made.

This child was raised the same as mine, loved the same but they didnot have the same reaction to the opposite sex earlier on.

I don't know the answer but I know my loved one is a human being with feelings and they get hurt alot along with the parents.  But they love there child and I do too.

So I guess it is easy to form an opinion until it really hits home, then a little soul searching and you find your position may not be on such solid ground.

Please remember the golden rule and I don't think you will find any exceptions provided in the Bible.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

Nobody is SAYING we dont love them! Again, its not an opionion against homosexuality, it is scriptural. There is a HUGE difference. 

Here is a scriptural example John 8:1-11

Jesus sees a woman about to be stoned, he tells the religious leaders of the day to think about their own sin. 

We are quick to point out this fact, but he doesn't stop there. He doesn't say to the lady, I am sorry that you were born a sinner and I love you and you are going to heaven anyway. 

He says I am not condemning you but you must go now and LEAVE your sinful lifestyle. The love and grace of Christ we so emphatically proclaim still leaves no room for a sinful lifestyle. We must remember that.


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## PWalls (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Nobody is SAYING we dont love them! Again, its not an opionion against homosexuality, it is scriptural. There is a HUGE difference.
> 
> Here is a scriptural example John 8:1-11
> 
> ...



Again, an excellent post.


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## DaGris (Jun 14, 2007)

I know a man that lives here locally. He is in church every sunday, sings in the chior and loves Jesus just as much as you and me. I have known him for over 14 years, ever since we both were in high school. He is so feminate and has been that way for ever. His face, voice, physique, and the way he carries hiself is so much like a women its not even funny......it this his choice? does he like being made fun off? does he like to be ridiculed his entire life?.....no, I dont think so. If it was his choice, he would change. I'm sure he has put up with so much stuff his entire life where it would be easier to choose to like women if he could. He's a great person, has a great sense of humor and one heck of a hair stylist ! Everyone knows his situation. I think his life would have been alot easier if he could have just choosen to be straight. I have two people in my family who are gay, my best friends sister is gay, I know several other people who are gay......Believe me, its not a choice for them, it who they are.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

I don't disagree with the fact that some people are born with a predisposition to be feminate or even gay. I'm not smart enough to figure all that out. Here is what I know, God's word says it is wrong. That makes it wrong. It's not about if I like it or not, if I agree or not, if I think its fair or not. I base ALL of my beliefs on the totality of God's word and that says to me that I cannot agree with a lifestyle of homosexuality. 

My grandfather was an alchoholic, so was his dad and his dad before them. They LOVED to drink and to get drunk! It hindered their relationship with their family and with God. I could say it wasn't their fault, that God made them with that gene. I could say it isn't fair. That's not the point- Scripture clearly teaches that (listen now) GETTING DRUNK is wrong. I cannot argue with that.


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## PWalls (Jun 14, 2007)

DaGris said:


> Believe me, its not a choice for them, it who they are.



Even if I believed that they were genetically created to be homosexual (which I don't), then they still have a "choice" to continue in that sin. Once a person realizes that what they are doing is a sin, then they have a "choice" to continue to do it or not.


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## Randy (Jun 14, 2007)

DaGris said:


> He is so feminate and has been that way for ever. His face, voice, physique, and the way he carries hiself is so much like a women its not even funny......it this his choice?.



Being feminate is not a sin.  Being gay is.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Here is what I know, God's word says it is wrong. That makes it wrong. It's not about if I like it or not, if I agree or not, if I think its fair or not.



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## DaGris (Jun 14, 2007)

There's alot of things that you, me , and everyone else on this board do that the bible says is wrong, does that mean we're all going to ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy? I go to church, I believe in god, I know Jesus, but there are things in my life that I'm not proud of, there are things I've done that the bible says is wrong, some I'm sorry I've done and some I'm not. The entire world is full of sinners, your church is full of sinners. Some people cant change the way they are, some can. If you're a drunk, stop drinking, if you steal, stop stealing, if you're a cheater, stop cheating.........if you love someone, stop loving them....?? ok, maybe you cant. Thats the way you feel. I love my wife, very much, so I cant stop loving her. My sister in law loves her girlfriend, she cant stop her emotions. Like I said before, there are people out there that mess with the same sex because they want to be crazy, wild, rebellous, had too much to drink or whatever, but there are people out there that are just born gay, never have had feelings for the opposite sex. Deal with it. Thats all I have to say about that....................how about them Braves?!


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## FishFanatic (Jun 14, 2007)

Braves are driving me nuts.  Wish they would pull their heads out of their you know whats and get fired up.  I can't help but think its not about talent this year.  Someone has got to stand up and say lets play some ball!


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## SBG (Jun 14, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> Braves are driving me nuts.  Wish they would pull their heads out of their you know whats and get fired up.  I can't help but think its not about talent this year.  Someone has got to stand up and say lets play some ball!



Yep!


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

haha ok so i guess that means this conversation is over


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 14, 2007)

*Well*

When all is said and done at the end of the day, there ain't NO ONE here that can say for sure what is right or wrong.

One thing I do know is that I am a sinner just like EVERYONE here...there ain't no degrees or ranks either fellas...contrary to the notion.

So I can ask...do you really wanna face God one day and answer a question of why you would advocate turning ANY human being away from Christ and the chance to fellowship in Christ?

I would rather be the prettiest rainbow wearing and homosexual male or female that ever walked the Earth and stand before God and answer to THAT before I would want to answer the question that I have posed above.

Thoughts?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

Good grief? What part of the idea that you CANNOT live a lifestyle of sin(comitting the same sin over and over without remorse)and be in relationship with God do we not understand. 

 How can someone say they are a Christian and say something like "it doesn't really matter what the bible says?" 

Nobody is turning anybody away from Christ- go back and see my JESUS said turn from your sinful lifestyle post. 

Jesus does not tolerate sin. There is a difference in being a sinner who is saved by grace and just a sinner. The sinner saved by grace truly desires not to sin and lives their life working toward that goal.

BTW- If the bible says it is wrong- I can say it is wrong.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 14, 2007)

*My Thoughts...*



WPH44 said:


> So I can ask...do you really wanna face God one day and answer a question of why you would advocate turning ANY human being away from Christ and the chance to fellowship in Christ?
> 
> I would rather be the prettiest rainbow wearing and homosexual male or female that ever walked the Earth and stand before God and answer THAT before I would want to answer the question that I have posed above.
> 
> Thoughts?



I have a different take on it then most.....

First off...

You or no one else in this world can bring anyone to Christ. God has to be the one that draws them to Christ.
John 6:44

So it is God's decision who He gives to Christ. Not yours, not mine, not anyones.

The only thing you or anyone else can do as a Saved person, is be a good example and never miss a chance to spread the Gospel.

Secondly, If The Bible says it is wrong, then it is wrong. There is no discussion in it.  Do you really think that when you get to heaven, that you or anyone else is going to have a say in their Judgement? The Bible is extremely clear on that point.

All I can say is if you know someone that is Gay and you are concerned for them, Pray for them, Witness to them, don't just look at it and say, "God wouldn't punish that person." How do you know? God's ways are not Man's ways, He is a just God, Pure and Holy, therefore His decisions are Just, Pure, and Holy.

God answers to no one! God is the ultimate authority, there will be no appeals, there will be no mistrails, because He has all the evidence, He knows everything, you can not hide anything from God.

We(the Saved) will stand before God, and God will Judge us for what we have done since we were Saved. If a gay person is Saved, they will turn away from their lifestyle. A truely Saved person can not continue to live in the Sin that had before their Quickening, they will find a way out, and Christ will give them that strength, but you have got to realize you can't do it yourself, you have to Trust Christ.

Those are my thoughts...

DB BB


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

Great thoughts DB BB


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 14, 2007)

*Uhhh*



Double Barrel BB said:


> and you are concerned for them, Pray for them, Witness to them, don't just look at it and say, "God wouldn't punish that person." How do you know? God's ways are not Man's ways, He is a just God, Pure and Holy, therefore His decisions are Just, Pure, and Holy.



Or you?  That was the point of my post.


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## PWalls (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> What part of the idea that you CANNOT live a lifestyle of sin(comitting the same sin over and over without remorse)and be in relationship with God do we not understand.



Good luck with an answer on that one.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 14, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> Or you?  That was the point of my post.




I know because it says it in the Bible. The Book that if you are Christian, should be the "end all" for any debate as to what is right and wrong.

Too many people want to say,"God didn't write the Bible!", because they want a religion that fits them, they don't want to be told what they are doing is wrong...

Bottom line: Most people don't like to think that when all is said and done, you will have to answer for what you have done. everyone will answer to God.

Every knee will bow and ever tongue will confess!

DB BB


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

Wow - I guess it never ceases to amaze me that there are two different groups of Christians

Those that believe that bible and those who don't !


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 14, 2007)

*Well*



jmharris23 said:


> Wow - I guess it never ceases to amaze me that there are two different groups of Christians
> 
> Those that believe that bible and those who don't !



No one ever answered my original question...hmmmm...are we in the  political forum? 

I believe the Bible.  I have also sat here and watched people that say you cannot be a member of a church because you are divorced or any one of a number of other MANMADE reasons...

I call that suborning blasphemy personally...

There are not two different groups of Christians at all...there are those those that are Christians and those that wish to apply MANMADE judgements to them and turn them away.

I am one that has yet again sought answers and been turned away and chastised by the REGIME...nothing has changed...see ya later...no doubt...

Hmm...where have I seen this...recently...

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Wow - I guess it never ceases to amaze me that there are two different groups of Christians
> 
> Those that believe that bible and those who don't !



I am a Christian and I not only believe in God, I have faith in God, but I do not presume to know God's will for every other person.  

I do know I will need forgiveness not self righteousness to enter heaven.

I wish there was no such thing as homosexuality, but there is, How many times have I heard There is a reason for everthing.   Is homosexuality as sin to be overcome or an opportunity to forgive and treat others as you would have them treat you. 

To ride a high horse gives the possibility of a long fall.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 14, 2007)

*Yeah*



PWalls said:


> Good luck with an answer on that one.



But where in there was there a complete picture reminding us that forgiveness can be asked...

Whatever...

I received an email back in January from a friend of mine on here describing the poison that has proliferated in this forum and although I doubted it, I see their assertion affirmed daily in the purest sense.

You do your thing and I will do mine.

I will say a prayer for your soul(s)...


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## Bowyer29 (Jun 14, 2007)

DaGris said:


> mmmmm......has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice. Yes, I'm sure there is some of them who just like it or just do it to rebel against thier parents but there are some who are just born that way. My sister in law is gay. She has never had any interest in a man, ever, even when she was very young. Yes, she looks like a woman, very pretty, and all of her pass girfriends and her current one are also very pretty. She is a member of our church, believes in god and knows jesus is her lord and savor. Will god look upon her one day and banish her?....I dont think so.



The homosexual physical act is a choice.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 14, 2007)

*Yeah*



Bowyer29 said:


> The homosexual physical act is a choice.



And to up the bet...The heterosexual physical act is a choice.

Hmmmm...go figure...


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 14, 2007)

> What part of the idea that you CANNOT live a lifestyle of sin(comitting the same sin over and over without remorse)and be in relationship with God do we not understand.





> And to up the bet...The heterosexual physical act is a choice.


 

Yeppers.  We sort of slid right on by those remarried divorcees who are living in a continued state of sin (by some definitions), and no one seems to get too worked up about them.

Personally if we are going by "Biblical standards", its the same as being light in your loafers.

Going back to the woman in the street, Jesus didn't say not to stone her, he said let him without sin throw the first stone.  Seems to me in my own simple way there's a lot of stone throwing going on here.


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## 60Grit (Jun 14, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> I do not believe you can be truly saved and live a lifestyle of sin and neither does God
> 
> Scripture is clear on this- quote]
> 
> ...


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## jmharris23 (Jun 14, 2007)

If you guys that are dogging my "righteousness" heard me preach you would know that you are barking up the wrong tree. All I am saying is this- very simply- If the bible says it is wrong- it is wrong. If I or anyone else does the SAME wrong things day after day, then I can only look at them and say that their life does not show the fruit of salvation. If you think I am trying to be the judge and jury, you got it all wrong. God will take care of that on His own.

I am simply trying my best to help people see that as Christians, the basis of our life ought to be the Word of God. SO i am gonna say this once more and I'm out

Regardless of whether we understand, agree, like, or find fairness in scripture - it is either the word of God to be believed and lived by in its totality or it is not.


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 15, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Yeppers.  We sort of slid right on by those remarried divorcees who are living in a continued state of sin (by some definitions), and no one seems to get too worked up about them.
> 
> Personally if we are going by "Biblical standards", its the same as being light in your loafers.
> 
> Going back to the woman in the street, Jesus didn't say not to stone her, he said let him without sin throw the first stone.  Seems to me in my own simple way there's a lot of stone throwing going on here.



Amen, to that.  I think that a lot of good people are so busy trying save my soul they forget about saving their own.

Faith is what saves you not perfection.

So I ask again, Is Homosexuality and its practice a sin to be overcome by the sinner or a an opportunity for christians to show forgiveness and try to lead the way to salvation.

I do not assume to know what God wants in this case, but I am going to forgive the sinner and pray I can help lead them to salvation with kindness not disdain.


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## 60Grit (Jun 15, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> Amen, to that. I think that a lot of good people are so busy trying save my soul they forget about saving their own.
> 
> Faith is what saves you not perfection.
> 
> ...


 

    

Finally someone who gets it.

Thanks Jimbo, opportunities to witness and show forgiveness are what our jobs are all about. It is Gods job to worry about the rest. 

I grew up the son of a Methodist Minister and in 49 years have yet to see anyone beat into submissiveness with a Bible. It is love, forgiveness, and steadfast faithfulness to God that draws people into wanting what you have.


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 15, 2007)

60Grit said:


> Finally someone who gets it.
> 
> Thanks Jimbo, opportunities to witness and show forgiveness are what our jobs are all about. It is Gods job to worry about the rest.
> 
> I grew up the son of a Methodist Minister and in 49 years have yet to see anyone beat into submissiveness with a Bible. It is love, forgiveness, and steadfast faithfulness to God that draws people into wanting what you have.



I am not a Methodist, but I have alway admired the Methodist Ministers.  They faithfully pick up and move whenever directed to do so by their conference.

I am not trying to change the subject of this thread, so everyone keep their eye on the issue being discussed.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 15, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> So I ask again, Is Homosexuality and its practice a sin to be overcome by the sinner or a an opportunity for christians to show forgiveness and try to lead the way to salvation.
> 
> I do not assume to know what God wants in this case, QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 15, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> Amen, to that.  I think that a lot of good people are so busy trying save my soul they forget about saving their own.
> 
> Faith is what saves you not perfection.



Actually it is God's grace that Saves anyone He chooses. You can not save yourself or anyone else....

DB BB


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jun 15, 2007)

I was reading these posts and about busted a gut laughing at the statement made by one member here that gays can come to church butthey can't be members. I personally think having a requirement to be a "member" of a church is about as anti-Christian thing as I have ever heard. As far as I am concerned, the only requirement to be a member of a church is to walk through the front door. Think about how a conversation would be between you and Jesus when he asked you why you wouldn't let homosexual John be a member. He'd ask you what your qualifications were. Then I suspect He'd point out why you didn't qualify. Then I do believe He'd put his arms around both of you and be so happy that you both loved him. 

Boy...a human being sure can mess stuff up. Something so simple as salvation has been pimped out by men who don't really deserve it any more than the people that they are casting out of the church. Far as I can see, none of us really deserved Calvary but there it is, free for all who ask for it. No strings attached. WE, MEN, are the ones putting a cost on it. Jesus never did. 

I have enough sins in my closet to worry about.

I DO believe that the church leadership should be without reproach. But as far as "membership" goes I think it should be open to all.

The song by Casting Crowns, "We Are The Body" comes to mind.

Dan


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 15, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> jimbo4116 said:
> 
> 
> > So I ask again, Is Homosexuality and its practice a sin to be overcome by the sinner or a an opportunity for christians to show forgiveness and try to lead the way to salvation.
> ...


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## Tailfeather (Jun 15, 2007)

Double Barrel BB said:


> You or no one else in this world can bring anyone to Christ. God has to be the one that draws them to Christ.
> John 6:44
> 
> So it is God's decision who He gives to Christ. Not yours, not mine, not anyones.
> ...



If that is the case, if God must choose you...that implies it's up to God who he decides to save and we have no choice in the matter....in that case, how can people be blamed for not believing or being saved?  What if God never chooses them?  Is God sending people to ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy because he decided not to choose tham?

Not sure I believe that.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 15, 2007)

Tailfeather said:


> If that is the case, if God must choose you...that implies it's up to God who he decides to save and we have no choice in the matter....in that case, how can people be blamed for not believing or being saved?  What if God never chooses them?  Is God sending people to ImadummyImadummyImadummyImadummy because he decided not to choose tham?
> 
> Not sure I believe that.




Well, you can read about it in:

John 6:41-51
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. 42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? 43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. 46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father. 47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. 48 I am that bread of life. 49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. 


Romans 8:29-30
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

God can choose who He wants. He is the only Being that could ever make the Right choice...

Of course you could just read the debate that we had on here a couple months ago about Election....
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=105491&highlight=Election


Or you could read a sermon by Charles Spurgeon here:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=106854&highlight=Election

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 15, 2007)

Tailfeather said:


> Not sure I believe that.




On a side note, and I am not singleling you out Tailfeather, but it doesn't matter what we believe, it matters what is said in God's Word. If it says it there than there shouldn't be a question weather we believe it or not.... it just is...

DB BB


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## Tailfeather (Jun 15, 2007)

I was raised to believe all anyone had to do was believe, repent, and ask God in....

I still say if God must "choose" you to be saved, then there are those he is "not" choosing...how could they be blamed if it's up to God and he didn't want them?

...this would essentially be condemning them to hayull without a chance for redemption....

that doesn't sound like the God I love...I think God is open to accept all who truly believe...not just a select few handpicked folks...

"He that believeth on me hath everlasting life"

sorry for the hijack....


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## leroy (Jun 15, 2007)

Even we as Christians have sin in our lives but I cant see how anyone can argue that as Christians we are not to condone it such as allowing a openly homosexual into our Church's without trying to minister to them or teaching that it is wrong in God's eyes. We had a member's daughter who is gay and inquired about our Church she was told she was welcome but we would not condone her lifestyle. She attended some but the first time the Pastor preached against the homosexual lifestyle she has not been back. If you had someone attending your Church who was openly commiting one adulturous affair after another would you not try to intervine or would you allow it to continue. We have to take a stand at sometime and say enough is enough. I believe we are all given the choice of everlasting life it is up to us as to accept it or reject it.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 15, 2007)

Nice post leroy. Pale Blue Dun, as for there being no strings attached what do we do with Jesus' statement to "take up our cross and follow Him?"

While we certainly begin our relationship with Christ by asking Him in, there are many things that are asked by Him to give up. If we are not willing to give them up, then how serious are we about our faith?


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## Count Down (Jun 15, 2007)

I have a question. I'm not well versed, but I am am beleiver.

Does god weigh sins?  I always understood that sin was sin. Simple as that. Whether you lie about feeling bad that day and call in to work, or you cheat on your spouse. 
Not a single sin can enter the kingdom of God. Therefore, you must believe that Jesus Christ is Lord, and you can only enter through him.

Therefore he must forgive your sin.  So if thats the case, does he kinda forgive one and not the other?  If ya'll answer yes, then I've been taught wrong, all my life.

Now, I do not support homosexuality, however, is the sin of the act the same as any other sin?  And does the sister in law, feel the same conviction of her actions as any other sinner?  

When we sin, we either feel the conviction or you don't...I feel it everyday...But, it will be my persoanl relationship with Jesus Christ that will save me.  He works on my sins, as he works on the sister inlaw who is Gay.

I personally don't believe that Jesus wieghs the sins against each other.  Because, not a single sin can enter the kingdom, they are treated the same...



Am I off base here?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 15, 2007)

No God does not weigh sin. 

But here is the deal, as a Christian, at the end of each day or after each sin, I ask God to forgive me for those sins that I have committed today. 

Here is what that means: 1. I am grieved by my sin, 2. I am not likely to do the SAME thing over and over, 3. God has forgiven me and we are in a good relationship

A practicing homosexual probably is not grieved by their sin, nor or they asking for forgiveness. They do not think anything is wrong with it. Now I know that is generalizing, but I am sure the majority of them feel this way. 

Make sense?


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## Count Down (Jun 15, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> No God does not weigh sin.
> 
> But here is the deal, as a Christian, at the end of each day or after each sin, I ask God to forgive me for those sins that I have committed today.
> 
> ...


 
Not argueing with you, so don't take it that way...Ok?

I agree, but, lets say for the sake of arguement, Homosexuality is in relation to alcholism.  Both started out as choices, but becomes it's own lifestyle.

Does the same apply to both..Can a drinker, receive christ, ask for forgiveness and redemption and still drink?


----------



## PWalls (Jun 15, 2007)

Count Down said:


> Does the same apply to both..Can a drinker, receive christ, ask for forgiveness and redemption and still drink?



The general answer is yes. However, you would wonder if that person truly accepted Christ into their heart. I assume you mean someone that becomes a Christian but willfully continues to live in a particular sin (all it alcoholism or homosexuality or adultery). There are many scriptures that point to the "new man" and such that describe a physical change in a person's life when they accept Christ.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jun 15, 2007)

Tailfeather said:


> I was raised to believe all anyone had to do was believe, repent, and ask God in....
> 
> I still say if God must "choose" you to be saved, then there are those he is "not" choosing...how could they be blamed if it's up to God and he didn't want them?
> 
> ...



That's called Calvinism and it is a doctrine called T.U.L.I.P. It basically says that God created us all and knew beforehand that "X" is going to Heaven and "Y" is going to Hades. 

Again...man messing up a great thing.


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## Count Down (Jun 15, 2007)

PWalls said:


> The general answer is yes. However, you would wonder if that person truly accepted Christ into their heart. I assume you mean someone that becomes a Christian but willfully continues to live in a particular sin (all it alcoholism or homosexuality or adultery). There are many scriptures that point to the "new man" and such that describe a physical change in a person's life when they accept Christ.


 

Right.  But if that was held to full accountability. Everyone except Billy Graham would be doomed.  The forgiveness action occurs after you are saved.  Why?  Your a new person now, why do we need the ability to be foregiven every moment of every day, after the acceptance of Christ?
It's because we are sinners, before and after the salvation.  

If a preacher has a lustful thought, asks for forgiveness, then a week later has another lustful thought...How is that SIN different that an alchy having two bottles of Jack in a week?  they are both sins.  Does the alchy not get forgiven...Even thought he feels the conviction of the holy spirit and prays for redemption everyday?

I think we as MAN confuse the action with how we perceive it to be. Hideous, light sin, BIG sin, white lie, and so on...We have catorgorized sin, where as I don't think the Lord has. 

Sin is Sin.

The lord didn't say...You only get three shots at this. We are far from perfect, and even farther from becoming perfect. 

I think I'm running in circles now..I'm way over my head...


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## FishFanatic (Jun 15, 2007)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> I was reading these posts and about busted a gut laughing at the statement made by one member here that gays can come to church butthey can't be members. I personally think having a requirement to be a "member" of a church is about as anti-Christian thing as I have ever heard. As far as I am concerned, the only requirement to be a member of a church is to walk through the front door. Think about how a conversation would be between you and Jesus when he asked you why you wouldn't let homosexual John be a member. He'd ask you what your qualifications were. Then I suspect He'd point out why you didn't qualify. Then I do believe He'd put his arms around both of you and be so happy that you both loved him.
> 
> Boy...a human being sure can mess stuff up. Something so simple as salvation has been pimped out by men who don't really deserve it any more than the people that they are casting out of the church. Far as I can see, none of us really deserved Calvary but there it is, free for all who ask for it. No strings attached. WE, MEN, are the ones putting a cost on it. Jesus never did.
> 
> ...




I may have been quilty of saying something to the sort.  I said that more in reference to other churches because most of them do have a requirement for membership.  I believe just like my church does....if you walk through the door you are a member.  But the church staff does have to get to know you and would like for you to be a Christian if you wanted to be on the staff.  Granted we have people who setup, take down, bring food, and other tasks that are not Christians....but obviously very capable of doing the job and whether they know it or not are working for the kingdom.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 15, 2007)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> That's called Calvinism and it is a doctrine called T.U.L.I.P. It basically says that God created us all and knew beforehand that "X" is going to Heaven and "Y" is going to Hades.
> 
> Again...man messing up a great thing.



There is alittle more to it that what you have posted... How do you know man has not messed up your understanding????

Those doctorines were around way before Calvin... people just call it calvinism...

I like to refer to them as "The Doctrines of Grace".

T = Total Depravity
U = Unconditional Election
L = Limited Atonement
I = Irresistible Grace
P = Perseverance of the Saints

Here is a link to - Doctrines of Grace – Categorized Scripture List
It show scriptual basis for the "Doctrines of Grace"

DB BB


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## jmharris23 (Jun 15, 2007)

Well I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation- but I am leaving tomorrow for vacation. I am sure by the time I get back you all will have figured out all this stuff- haha- I look forward to seeing where it goes. Hope you all have a great week!


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## FishFanatic (Jun 15, 2007)

Count Down said:


> Right.  But if that was held to full accountability. Everyone except Billy Graham would be doomed.  The forgiveness action occurs after you are saved.  Why?  Your a new person now, why do we need the ability to be foregiven every moment of every day, after the acceptance of Christ?
> It's because we are sinners, before and after the salvation.
> 
> If a preacher has a lustful thought, asks for forgiveness, then a week later has another lustful thought...How is that SIN different that an alchy having two bottles of Jack in a week?  they are both sins.  Does the alchy not get forgiven...Even thought he feels the conviction of the holy spirit and prays for redemption everyday?
> ...



I fully understand what your are saying.  And I in no way believe that sin is categorized...but I do know that it seems to be engrained in all of us from the start.  We frown on some things worse than others.  So its tough not to be biased.  I believe that if an alcoholic at age 50 truly accepts Christ, and that would be between the alchoholic and Christ, and still cannot shake the alchohol over the next ten years for whatever reason, and dies at 60....I think he/she will be in heaven with God...regardless what we saw after salvation.  God is bigger than our understanding.  We look at that scenario and expect to see improvement or a total abstinence from the alcohol....but what if that individual is just too weak to do that?  What if they are too weak to let God take control of the situation, but every part of them wants to let Him take control?  Man will inevitably throw a wrench in there somehwere and say...well this person must not be saved.  Its not so black and white.  And I believe that is the difference between God and us.  His thoughts are not like ours.  He is the only one that knows that alcoholics thoughts, prayers, weaknesses, and struggles.  And even if its a rocky relationship between God and the alcoholic, God understands more than any of us...the nature of man.  He created us and has been with us forever and especially understands the nature of sin....so I think that the fact the alcoholic has any relationship with God will allow Him to be in heaven with God.  Plug in any sin for "alchoholic" in the above scenario.  This is why its so important for we Christians to understand the beauty of Christ's gift of salvation.  There were no other requirements than to believe.  God knows there could be no other way.  Man would screw it up...just like we already try to do with categories of sin and works, and every other stipulation we try to add to  Christ's gift.  Its the sin in our nature that causes this.  It attacks us from every angle.


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## Count Down (Jun 15, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Well I have thoroughly enjoyed our conversation- but I am leaving tomorrow for vacation. I am sure by the time I get back you all will have figured out all this stuff- haha- I look forward to seeing where it goes. Hope you all have a great week!


 
Jim, Have a good'n!  We'll wait for you to get back to finish...


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## Count Down (Jun 15, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> I fully understand what your are saying. And I in no way believe that sin is categorized...but I do know that it seems to be engrained in all of us from the start. We frown on some things worse than others. So its tough not to be biased. I believe that if an alcoholic at age 50 truly accepts Christ, and that would be between the alchoholic and Christ, and still cannot shake the alchohol over the next ten years for whatever reason, and dies at 60....I think he/she will be in heaven with God...regardless what we saw after salvation. God is bigger than our understanding. We look at that scenario and expect to see improvement or a total abstinence from the alcohol....but what if that individual is just too weak to do that? What if they are too weak to let God take control of the situation, but every part of them wants to let Him take control? Man will inevitably throw a wrench in there somehwere and say...well this person must not be saved. Its not so black and white. And I believe that is the difference between God and us. His thoughts are not like ours. He is the only one that knows that alcoholics thoughts, prayers, weaknesses, and struggles. And even if its a rocky relationship between God and the alcoholic, God understands more than any of us...the nature of man. He created us and has been with us forever and especially understands the nature of sin....so I think that the fact the alcoholic has any relationship with God will allow Him to be in heaven with God. Plug in any sin for "alchoholic" in the above scenario. This is why its so important for we Christians to understand the beauty of Christ's gift of salvation. There were no other requirements than to believe. God knows there could be no other way. Man would screw it up...just like we already try to do with categories of sin and works, and every other stipulation we try to add to the Christ's gift. Its the sin in our nature that causes this. It attacks us from every angle.


 

 

You said it better than I ever could....
Not that it means a lot.  But seriously, Thanks.


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 16, 2007)

FishFanatic said:


> I fully understand what your are saying.  And I in no way believe that sin is categorized...but I do know that it seems to be engrained in all of us from the start.  We frown on some things worse than others.  So its tough not to be biased.  I believe that if an alcoholic at age 50 truly accepts Christ, and that would be between the alchoholic and Christ, and still cannot shake the alchohol over the next ten years for whatever reason, and dies at 60....I think he/she will be in heaven with God...regardless what we saw after salvation.  God is bigger than our understanding.  We look at that scenario and expect to see improvement or a total abstinence from the alcohol....but what if that individual is just too weak to do that?  What if they are too weak to let God take control of the situation, but every part of them wants to let Him take control?  Man will inevitably throw a wrench in there somehwere and say...well this person must not be saved.  Its not so black and white.  And I believe that is the difference between God and us.  His thoughts are not like ours.  He is the only one that knows that alcoholics thoughts, prayers, weaknesses, and struggles.  And even if its a rocky relationship between God and the alcoholic, God understands more than any of us...the nature of man.  He created us and has been with us forever and especially understands the nature of sin....so I think that the fact the alcoholic has any relationship with God will allow Him to be in heaven with God.  Plug in any sin for "alchoholic" in the above scenario.  This is why its so important for we Christians to understand the beauty of Christ's gift of salvation.  There were no other requirements than to believe.  God knows there could be no other way.  Man would screw it up...just like we already try to do with categories of sin and works, and every other stipulation we try to add to  Christ's gift.  Its the sin in our nature that causes this.  It attacks us from every angle.



Tremendous!!!  

You know it is understood that sin is sin.  We are all sinners, we repent and ask forgiveness but sin again.
Maybe the same sin or a different one.

I have to ask if we are all sinners and all sin is equal, then isn't it a repentant quest for salvation and God's grace that will open the gates of heaven for all of us?


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## DelphicSharpShot (Jun 16, 2007)

I agree with there being no other "requirements" for salvation except faith in Jesus Christ as savior.  Church membership is another thing.  The purpose of the church is to testify to the world, local and foreign, of the gift of salvation and the love of Christ!  It's second purpose, I believe, is for the members to encourage each other.  We have to understand that the visible testimony of a church to the lost world is of great importance.  As scripture clearly identifies a gay lifestyle as sinful, I don't think there is any dispute so far on that one, it, along with alcoholism and any other repetitive/habitual sin, is damaging to the very purpose of the church.  Obviously we all have fallen short and we all continue to sin after salvation, but an outward/visible sinful life doesn't encourage the lost to accept Christ.  Looking toward the second most import purpose of the church, the fellowship of it's members, does "a little yeast leavens the whole lump" sound familiar?  Church discipline is supposed to be used to maintain the testimony of the church and prevent the church itself from falling into habitual sin.  As I stated before, we all of course sin, habitual sin damages a church and it is to be dealt with.  The course of action and even the timeline for this was explained earlier.  We have to know that church discipline is not meant to get rid of people, but rather to break the fellowship from those who are going through it to make them realize what they are missing and draw them back.  Church discipline should ALWAYS be intended to bring those who have stumbled away back into the church and the fellowship.  I think with that understood it's obvious that a person involved in a sinful lifestyle such as homosexuality should not be allowed to join the membership of a church while the lifestyle is being lived out.  They should, however, be encouraged to attend the church and should be dealt with with love.  Attending a church and being a member, being a part of the fellowship of the members, are two very different things.  No one should ever be "excommunicated" or thrown out of the church, but removing them from the fellowship of the church should be done if they refuse to give up the lifestyle they are living.

All IMHO,
  Branden Johnson


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## SBG (Jun 16, 2007)

DelphicSharpShot said:


> I agree with there being no other "requirements" for salvation except faith in Jesus Christ as savior.  Church membership is another thing.  The purpose of the church is to testify to the world, local and foreign, of the gift of salvation and the love of Christ!  It's second purpose, I believe, is for the members to encourage each other.  We have to understand that the visible testimony of a church to the lost world is of great importance.  As scripture clearly identifies a gay lifestyle as sinful, I don't think there is any dispute so far on that one, it, along with alcoholism and any other repetitive/habitual sin, is damaging to the very purpose of the church.  Obviously we all have fallen short and we all continue to sin after salvation, but an outward/visible sinful life doesn't encourage the lost to accept Christ.  Looking toward the second most import purpose of the church, the fellowship of it's members, does "a little yeast leavens the whole lump" sound familiar?  Church discipline is supposed to be used to maintain the testimony of the church and prevent the church itself from falling into habitual sin.  As I stated before, we all of course sin, habitual sin damages a church and it is to be dealt with.  The course of action and even the timeline for this was explained earlier.  We have to know that church discipline is not meant to get rid of people, but rather to break the fellowship from those who are going through it to make them realize what they are missing and draw them back.  Church discipline should ALWAYS be intended to bring those who have stumbled away back into the church and the fellowship.  I think with that understood it's obvious that a person involved in a sinful lifestyle such as homosexuality should not be allowed to join the membership of a church while the lifestyle is being lived out.  They should, however, be encouraged to attend the church and should be dealt with with love.  Attending a church and being a member, being a part of the fellowship of the members, are two very different things.  No one should ever be "excommunicated" or thrown out of the church, but removing them from the fellowship of the church should be done if they refuse to give up the lifestyle they are living.
> 
> All IMHO,
> Branden Johnson



Doctrinally sound thinking! Good post.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 17, 2007)

Well guys I am sitting here on vacation looking at the sunrise over the Atlantic and what Branden said is exactly what I have been trying to say. Thanks Branden


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## PWalls (Jun 17, 2007)

Definately a good post by Branden.


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## snipehunter (Jun 18, 2007)

> The Belfast Telegraph (June 5) quotes the Presbyterian Moderator, Dr John Finlay, as saying: "There would be no reason for not having (homosexuals) as (church) members."
> 
> The Holy Spirit describes male and female homosexuality as 'vile affections' and a shameful 'lust' that is 'against nature' (Rom. 1:26-27).
> 
> ...



Here is my point sin is sin!!!!  Adultry, fornication any sin is sin.  Will God forgive you yes I belive so.  All sin is weighted the same.  Can you be gay and saved yes and still make it to heaven.  I do think once you get to heaven you will have to pay for yoru sins no matter what the sin.


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## PWalls (Jun 18, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> no its not a choice , if so why would sio many choose it just to b ridiculed n beat up ...... havin said that do you choose to whine n cry about all your issues ? im guessin you can t help it .....



I have no clue as to why they "choose" to live in that sin. Redemption and forgiveness is their should they "choose" to repent.

As for the rest, you don't know me from Adam so kind of some stupid statement there. I don't "whine" or "cry" about my "issues". I pray for guidance and my wife and I handle our issues like Christian adults.


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## SBG (Jun 18, 2007)

PWalls said:


> As for the rest, you don't know me from Adam so kind of some stupid statement there. I don't "whine" or "cry" about my "issues". I pray for guidance and my wife and I handle our issues like Christian adults.



Don't worry about it brother. It is the most common tactic available to someone when they can only go on "how they feel." They attack and try and belittle someone else. It has been happening to Bible believing believers since Jesus walked the earth- I know that it will be the same until He returns.


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## Spotlite (Jun 18, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> no its not a choice , if so why would sio many choose it just to b ridiculed n beat up ...... havin said that do you choose to whine n cry about all your issues ? im guessin you can t help it .....



Attention


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## Count Down (Jun 18, 2007)

ponyboy said:


> no its not a choice , if so why would sio many choose it just to b ridiculed n beat up ...... havin said that do you choose to whine n cry about all your issues ? im guessin you can t help it .....


 

Yep...This was the dumbest post on this entire thread.  Good Job...


Congrats on dumbing down a pretty decent thread..


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## DaGris (Jun 18, 2007)

I'm sorry, but someone who truely is a homosexual does not feel that way because they want to. Its the way they feel inside. What better? Feel miserable inside, put on a front for the entire world, lie to yourself, lie to you family, marry your hetorosexual counterpart and lie to them, go on life like nothing is wrong.....live life like a normal, hetorosexual just so you can "fit in" and do exactly what the bible says(and feel bad, lonely, empty inside for your whole life).....or do what you body, mind, and heart is telling you ever since you could feel love......I'm sure its hard enough to face it without people shoving it in your face day after day. Do you think my sister in law is oblivious to her surrounding's? she knows what people say, she knows what the bible says, she's talked to our preacher about it (and quess what, he still loves her), she is aware what might happen at judgement day.....but all of that is thrown in her face and she still cant be straight. SHES GAY. its who she is.


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## PWalls (Jun 18, 2007)

DaGris said:


> its who she is.



But, she has had the Bible explained to her by that preacher. She knows what she is doing is wrong. She is aware.

So, she is still choosing to do it. Still a choice on her part.


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## Double Barrel BB (Jun 18, 2007)

The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked....

DB BB


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 18, 2007)

*...*



PWalls said:


> But, she has had the Bible explained to her by that preacher. She knows what she is doing is wrong. She is aware.



So I guess that by this standard and everything else that has been stated in this thread, that because both my wife and I were married before and although both of our respective marriages ended through no fault of our own, we are then supposed to leave each other if we expect forgiveness/salvation, otherwise we are living in sin and not worthy of receiving God's word in a church, etc.


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## DaGris (Jun 18, 2007)

PWalls said:


> But, she has had the Bible explained to her by that preacher. She knows what she is doing is wrong. She is aware.
> 
> So, she is still choosing to do it. Still a choice on her part.



NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!! Thats what I'm trying to tell you! NOT A CHOICE! Along time ago I too was very naive about this subject. How do you think we (me, wife, mother in law, father in law, etc) felt years ago when all this hit the fan? we spent many, many tear full night dealing with this subject. It took along time for all of us to realize that it wasnt her choice but rather the way she is, the way she feels and the way her heart works. I tried, I set her up with some of the best looking, nicest guys in the world. Guys with looks, money, the whole package but she had no interest in them.  Theres alot of things that are written in the bible that most people dont follow on a day to day basis. It was written a long, long time ago and was'nt written by god. I loves Jesus, I believe in god. He knows my sister in law is a great person, a christian, and he and only he will make that decision. Get off you high horse, deal with situations that are around you. Instead of talking bad about gay folks that believe in god, go after and preach to the straight people that beat thier wives, do drugs, steal, kill, and dont belive in the lord.


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## PWalls (Jun 18, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> So I guess that by this standard and everything else that has been stated in this thread, that because both my wife and I were married before and although both of our respective marriages ended through no fault of our own, we are then supposed to leave each other if we expect forgiveness/salvation, otherwise we are living in sin and not worthy of receiving God's word in a church, etc.




Don't know your circumstances behind either of your previous marriages or divorce. Can't answer your question. And, of course, your Salvation does not hinge upon your marriage or divorce, but your acceptance of Jesus Christ. I can only offer my opinion based upon my interpretation of Scripture on your situation. And, until I know detail, I will not do that.


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## PWalls (Jun 18, 2007)

DaGris said:


> Get off you high horse, deal with situations that are around you.



Not on a high horse. Trying to explain Scripture. Your statement about the Bible being written by men leads me to believe that you do not think it is not infallible or inerrant. If that is the case, then I am beating a dead horse. Feel free to correct me on that point.

As to the rest, I will continue to the good deeds that I am already doing which includes evangilizing the lost and to spreading God's Word. If you would like a detail of those, I can give it to you.

Your personal emotions and feelings caused by your relationship to your sister-in-law is causing you to "settle" on this issue as your sister (and remaining family according to your post) has already done.


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## DaGris (Jun 18, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Not on a high horse. Trying to explain Scripture. Your statement about the Bible being written by men leads me to believe that you do not think it is not infallible or inerrant. If that is the case, then I am beating a dead horse. Feel free to correct me on that point.
> 
> As to the rest, I will continue to the good deeds that I am already doing which includes evangilizing the lost and to spreading God's Word. If you would like a detail of those, I can give it to you.
> 
> Your personal emotions and feelings caused by your relationship to your sister-in-law is causing you to "settle" on this issue as your sister (and remaining family according to your post) has already done.



It 2007.....thing change. I'm sure god doesnt like us driving around in cars and truck, making a mess out of his buetiful world but theres nothing in the bible about that! I will admit it, theres some things in the bible that I dont agree with, theres alot of question that it raises in my head,....does that make me wrong? or maybe just open minded and maybe I can see a different side of things. I dont care what you say, no one can follow the bible word from word and put it in today world, its a guide, you try to use it and follow it in todays world the best you can. Things change, its a different world year after year.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 18, 2007)

> So I guess that by this standard and everything else that has been stated in this thread, that because both my wife and I were married before and although both of our respective marriages ended through no fault of our own, we are then supposed to leave each other if we expect forgiveness/salvation, otherwise we are living in sin and not worthy of receiving God's word in a church, etc.



Yep, that's where you end up following some of the arguments advanced here.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 18, 2007)

*...*



Twenty five ought six said:


> Yep, that's where you end up following some of the arguments advanced here.



 I hear ya... 

My wife and I are both born again believers in Jesus Christ as our Saviour.  We are both very spiritual and both pray regularly.  We initially considered and tried to find a church home but we kept repeatedly encountering judgmental "holier than thous" and we ended up abandoning the idea (so I guess they did their job)...seems that is all a lot of folks want to do anymore is turn people away from God.  We have found that fellowship with Christian friends is far better than church...besides going to church is not what gets you into heaven anyhow.

Most recently I have started back reading my Bible more.  One verse that sticks with me here and now (for some odd reason) is...

Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.


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## PWalls (Jun 18, 2007)

DaGris said:


> It 2007.....thing change.... Things change, its a different world year after year.



But, GOD DOESN'T.

When he inspired men to write that homosexuality was an abomination a couple thousand years ago, He meant it. He hasn't changed. That sin is still an abomination to Him now just as it was then.

Too often man tries to "modernize" or "change" God's Word to suit their own needs. Like, maybe, God really didn't mean homosexuality was an abomination, maybe He meant it was just kinda bad in a general sense. Like maybe God would change His Word and Holiness to suit our needs.

It's still amazing to me that people will rely on the Bible for Salvation even though those verses were inspired 2000 years ago and trust the truth in those words for their eternal resting place, but think it's OK to believe the rest of the verses in that Book could change from age to age to meet man's ever degrading standards and expectations.


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## Pale Blue Dun (Jun 18, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I hear ya...
> 
> My wife and I are both born again believers in Jesus Christ as our Saviour.  We are both very spiritual and both pray regularly.  We initially considered and tried to find a church home but we kept repeatedly encountering judgmental "holier than thous" and we ended up abandoning the idea (so I guess they did their job)...seems that is all a lot of folks want to do anymore is turn people away from God.  We have found that fellowship with Christian friends is far better than church...besides going to church is not what gets you into heaven anyhow.
> 
> ...



We are our own worst enemy. Christians have lost more souls to Satan than any other means. We make man-made conditions on salvation that are just not biblically based. 

I love the Lord and I love going to church but I find myself wishing I could do what you do and just have Bible study at home instead of heading to a social event on Sundays.

Dan


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## PWalls (Jun 18, 2007)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> I love the Lord and I love going to church but I find myself wishing I could do what you do and just have Bible study at home instead of heading to a social event on Sundays.
> 
> Dan



Church is what we make of it. If we go to church just to meet and greet and eat, then that is all it will ever be. If we go with a repentant heart and a heart ready to worship, then the Spirit will be there to make Church something more.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 18, 2007)

*...*



PWalls said:


> If we go with a repentant heart and a heart ready to worship, then the Spirit will be there to make Church something more.



Been there done that.  My heart was in the right place; however, I cannot control the other individuals that I encountered.

They were there alright...ready and willing to cast man-made judgements upon me.

Heck, the same thing even happened with my first wife.  She had been married before in the Church of England (and before anyone says it, yes I know that does not qualify as Christian here... ) and the marriage had been annulled for reasons beyond her control.

Well, the same thing happened...the judgement from HUMANS cranked up and I said to heck with it.

Fast forward and I tried again and again I was pushed away or made to feel I was less than others in the church who had stayed with their spouses DESPITE all of THEIR spouses transgressions.  Point here is that not a single person that casts judgement is beyond reproach even though many of them assume so.

I for one would love to be such a "perfect" soul that I no longer have to worry about my own life and could then help others so readily with theirs...

Go figure...


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## crackerdave (Jun 18, 2007)

Ask yourselves this: IF there were such a thing as a "perfect church",would they let YOU in?


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## DaGris (Jun 18, 2007)

I had to cut my last post short, had to get to Vacation bible school, dinner was over at 6:30 . I will live my life my way, my sister in law will live her life her way and you can live your life your way. Some people are just alittle more opened minded about certain things. What does the bible say about dressing up in camo, sitting up in a tree with a sniper rifle that was designed to hit a target at 400 yards just to kill one of gods innocent buetiful creatures????(I cant wait till september!) I guess we all here waited untill we were married to have sex for the first time too.  We all worship one god (I hope), he will make that decision when that time comes.


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## SBG (Jun 19, 2007)

PWalls said:


> But, GOD DOESN'T.
> 
> When he inspired men to write that homosexuality was an abomination a couple thousand years ago, He meant it. He hasn't changed. That sin is still an abomination to Him now just as it was then.
> 
> ...



Amen!


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## PWalls (Jun 19, 2007)

DaGris said:


> I guess we all here waited untill we were married to have sex for the first time too.



Actually, I did (at the ripe old age of 25) and thanked God for giving me a beautiful woman who continues to be my little piece of Heaven here on Earth. Thanks  .

And, yes, one day I hope we will all be at the judgement seat of Christ where He will listen to believers give an account of their actions here on Earth. I have many sins and will have to account for much in my previous life (the old man) but I strive to do my best to hold to God's infallible and inerrant Word so that I will have a better account for it.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 19, 2007)

I waited too!!!


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## Spotlite (Jun 19, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> So I guess that by this standard and everything else that has been stated in this thread, that because both my wife and I were married before and although both of our respective marriages ended through no fault of our own, we are then supposed to leave each other if we expect forgiveness/salvation, otherwise we are living in sin and not worthy of receiving God's word in a church, etc.



No, I dont think you have to do that 



As far as the subject of homosexuals, They have a soul that needs to be reached, but they have to learn the old saying "opposites attract"


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 19, 2007)

*...*



Spotlite said:


> No, I dont think you have to do that



Whew!  You saved me 'cause I was about to run out and get a lawyer...  

NOT!


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## Spotlite (Jun 19, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> Whew!  You saved me 'cause I was about to run out and get a lawyer...
> 
> NOT!



Funny thing is, one guy tried to convince another guy that he was doomed and living in sin because he remarried, turned right around and tried to convince him of OSAS Go figure..........


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## redwards (Jun 19, 2007)

*Some Questions in particular.....*




> mmmmm......has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice. Yes, I'm sure there is some of them who just like it or just do it to rebel against thier parents but there are some who are just born that way. My sister in law is gay. She has never had any interest in a man, ever, even when she was very young. Yes, she looks like a woman, very pretty, and all of her pass girfriends and her current one are also very pretty. She is a member of our church, believes in god and knows jesus is her lord and savor. Will god look upon her one day and banish her?....I dont think so.


 



> ...............I have two people in my family who are gay, my best friends sister is gay, I know several other people who are gay......Believe me, its not a choice for them, it who they are.





> I'm sorry, but someone who truely is a homosexual does not feel that way because they want to. Its the way they feel inside. What better? Feel miserable inside, put on a front for the entire world, lie to yourself, lie to you family, marry your hetorosexual counterpart and lie to them, go on life like nothing is wrong.....live life like a normal, hetorosexual just so you can "fit in" and do exactly what the bible says(and feel bad, lonely, empty inside for your whole life).....or do what you body, mind, and heart is telling you ever since you could feel love.........
> .........Do you think my sister in law is oblivious to her surrounding's? she knows what people say, she knows what the bible says, she's talked to our preacher about it (and quess what, he still loves her), she is aware what might happen at judgement day.....but all of that is thrown in her face and she still cant be straight. SHES GAY. its who she is.





> NNNOOOOOOO!!!!!! Thats what I'm trying to tell you! NOT A CHOICE! Along time ago I too was very naive about this subject. How do you think we (me, wife, mother in law, father in law, etc) felt years ago when all this hit the fan? we spent many, many tear full night dealing with this subject. It took along time for all of us to realize that it wasnt her choice but rather the way she is, the way she feels and the way her heart works. I tried, I set her up with some of the best looking, nicest guys in the world. Guys with looks, money, the whole package but she had no interest in them. Theres a lot of things that are written in the bible that most people dont follow on a day to day basis. It was written a long, long time ago and was'nt written by god. I loves Jesus, I believe in god. He knows my sister in law is a great person, a christian, and he and only he will make that decision. ......





> ......................
> .....................The entire world is full of sinners, your church is full of sinners. Some people cant change the way they are, some can. If you're a drunk, stop drinking, if you steal, stop stealing, if you're a cheater, stop cheating.........if you love someone, stop loving them....?? ok, maybe you cant. Thats the way you feel. I love my wife, very much, so I cant stop loving her. My sister in law loves her girlfriend, she cant stop her emotions. Like I said before, there are people out there that mess with the same sex because they want to be crazy, wild, rebellous, had too much to drink or whatever, but there are people out there that are just born gay, never have had feelings for the opposite sex. Deal with it.................................
> ..............................





> It 2007.....thing change. I'm sure god doesnt like us driving around in cars and truck, making a mess out of his buetiful world but theres nothing in the bible about that! I will admit it, theres some things in the bible that I dont agree with, theres alot of question that it raises in my head,....does that make me wrong? or maybe just open minded and maybe I can see a different side of things. I dont care what you say, no one can follow the bible word from word and put it in today world, its a guide, you try to use it and follow it in todays world the best you can. Things change, its a different world year after year.





> ...... I will live my life my way, my sister in law will live her life her way and you can live your life your way. Some people are just a little more opened minded about certain things......


DaGris,
Not trying to put you on the spot or anything like that, just a Christian who believes 100% in God, Jesus Christ and Holy Spirit, AND the power of prayer to change people's lives.
So, if you would like to respond to a few questions for me.


1. Do you believe God is powerful enough to change what a person does, or how that person lives his/her life?

2. Do you or your family regularly ask God to change the lifestyle that your sister-in-law has embraced?

3. Would you like for others (members of this forum, in particular) to pray that God intervene in the lifestyle your sister-in-law has chosen? 
If so, and you don't mind, just give her first name. I like to be specific in praying to God.

I apologize for being so direct, but that is just the way I am. 
And if this post offends you, just PM me and I'll delete it. 
However, I am leaving on vacation this afternoon and will not return until next week.
In the meantime, be assured that I am going to be praying for God to intervene in the lifestyle of your sister-in-law.
And, NO, I am not being judgmental. I just believe God's Word has not changed over time, and that a life of sin is not how God wishes us to live!
Thanks,
Ralph<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


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## DaGris (Jun 19, 2007)

1. yes  
2. At first we did but now we dont. We've came to realize that she has'nt embraced it, it was'nt her decision, not her choice, but who she is. 
3. You can if you want. Her name is Katie.

 you might want to do something about these smile faces. I think they're both males............


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## Lead Poison (Jun 19, 2007)

Homosexuality is definitely a CHOICE. Otherwise, God wouldn't hold those who choose to practice it accoutable!

Homosexuals are merely giving in to the sin and perversion of Satan and not yielding their heart to Jesus.


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## leroy (Jun 19, 2007)

good post leadpoisen very true. The problem is people are trying to change the Bible to fit their lives instead of changing their lives to fit the Bible.


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## DaGris (Jun 19, 2007)

Lead Poison said:


> Homosexuality is definitely a CHOICE. Otherwise, God wouldn't hold those who choose to practice it accoutable!
> 
> Homosexuals are merely giving in to the sin and perversion of Satan and not yielding their heart to Jesus.



...........my sister in law is not giving in to satan,....she loves jesus, and loves god. What do you want her to do? lie to herself, marry a man, be miserable her entire life so she can make you happy? She's happy, she kows shes a good person, she knows god loves her. I'm done with this thread................


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## SBG (Jun 20, 2007)

DaGris;1281179I'm done with this thread................:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :huh: :banginghe[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Thanks!


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 20, 2007)

*...*



SBG said:


> Thanks!



That seems to be the typical reaction here.  Turning yet another away from a discussion on God and Christianity .  I tell ya, I feel the Christian love, tolerance and compassion...I bet Jesus would be so proud......NOT!

Geesh...I though he presented his story very well and very objectively and all you all could do was dog him about his sister in law.  Sad indeed.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 20, 2007)

> I tell ya, I feel the Christian love, tolerance and compassion



Yes, I never realized before realized that "my way or the highway" was in The Bible.  I'm keeping on looking for it.


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> That seems to be the typical reaction here.  Turning yet another away from a discussion on God and Christianity .  I tell ya, I feel the Christian love, tolerance and compassion...I bet Jesus would be so proud......NOT!
> 
> Geesh...I though he presented his story very well and very objectively and all you all could do was dog him about his sister in law.  Sad indeed.



Actually, the thread had run its course anyway.

And, he may have presented his story well, but his story does not agree with God's Word. Are we supposed to just roll over and give up (as he has admitted to doing with his sister-in-law - he doesn't even pray for her anymore) when someone's lifestyle and choices are contrary to God's Word? Are we to stop trying to show the truth of Scripture? Are we to just look away while someone relates a story of a sinful lifestyle with no prepentence? He was not interested in discussion about God and Christianity because his mind was already made up about his sister-in-law and had already justified that attitude to himself and his family.


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Yes, I never realized before realized that "my way or the highway" was in The Bible.  I'm keeping on looking for it.



Wow.   

The Bible is completely about "God's Way or the Highway". There is no gray areas. It's either a sin or it isn't. You either accept Jesus or you don't. There is no middle ground.


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## PWalls (Jun 20, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> I feel the Christian love, tolerance and compassion...I bet Jesus would be so proud......NOT!



One more thing.

Christian tolerance. That is an oxymoron. Christians are not to tolerate sin. Period. End of story. We are not to get comfortable with it. We are not to "love" and "show compassion" towards it.

You mention Jesus.

What did he do to the people who were desecrating the temple (a sin according to God). Did He go in there and give them hugs and kisses and say let's talk and why don't ya'll clean out maybe in a few days and leave? Or, did He get mad and physically throw them out in a rage over the desecration that He had seen.


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## SBG (Jun 20, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> That seems to be the typical reaction here.  Turning yet another away from a discussion on God and Christianity .  I tell ya, I feel the Christian love, tolerance and compassion...I bet Jesus would be so proud......NOT!
> 
> Geesh...I though he presented his story very well and very objectively and all you all could do was dog him about his sister in law.  Sad indeed.



   

Get out the violins.


----------



## crackerdave (Jun 20, 2007)

This thread has gotten WAY off track - like a lot of them seem to do,I've noticed. I'm outta here!


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## jimbo4116 (Jun 20, 2007)

rangerdave said:


> This thread has gotten WAY off track - like a lot of them seem to do,I've noticed. I'm outta here!


Me too.
To much anger here, no compassion, mostly no firsthand experience in dealing with a loved one who is homosexual.
Only this is what I would do and what you should do.

I hope God forgives us all.


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## SBG (Jun 20, 2007)

Anger? That would be funny if it weren't so sad.

See what I mean Brother Philip?


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 20, 2007)

*...*



jimbo4116 said:


> Me too.
> To much anger here, no compassion, mostly no firsthand experience in dealing with a loved one who is homosexual.
> Only this is what I would do and what you should do.
> 
> I hope God forgives us all.



Exactly...best statement in the whole thread...God's forgiveness, tolerance, love and compassion is way  more expansive than the seemingly naive, human views expressed here.


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## SBG (Jun 20, 2007)

WPH44 said:


> God's forgiveness,... love and compassion is way  more expansive than the seemingly naive, human views expressed here.



Good point.


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## Spotlite (Jun 20, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> Me too.
> To much anger here, no compassion, mostly no firsthand experience in dealing with a loved one who is homosexual.
> Only this is what I would do and what you should do.
> 
> I hope God forgives us all.



I have a cousin thats as gay as they come. But theres a difference in accepting him as a cousin and accepting him as gay. He can have his lifestyle all he wants, anyway he wants, but I do not have to accept the choices he has made for himself for him to remain my cousin. He can come to my house as a cousin, but the gay parade aint coming on my property. As far as Biblical issues with it, we are not to accept things just because.....................Theres a right and wrong and nothing in the middle.


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## Oldstick (Jun 27, 2007)

DaGris said:


> ...........my sister in law is not giving in to satan,....she loves jesus, and loves god. What do you want her to do? lie to herself, marry a man, be miserable her entire life so she can make you happy? She's happy, she kows shes a good person, she knows god loves her. I'm done with this thread................




DaGris, I nominate you for the June 2007 Woody's Medal of Bravery.  I'm sure there is a large contigent in complete agreement with you but not about to step into the firing line.


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## Thanatos (Jun 27, 2007)

Blah, blah, blah your going to idiotidiotidiotidiot. Im going to idiotidiotidiotidiot, because im not a member of a church. The only way to get saved is God picks you BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...

As long as you KNOW God sent his "son" to die for you and you work to make your self like Christ then you get a ticket to enter His kingdom. No matter how many times you fail and trip and fall. End of story.


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## PWalls (Jun 27, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> Blah, blah, blah your going to idiotidiotidiotidiot. Im going to idiotidiotidiotidiot, because im not a member of a church. The only way to get saved is God picks you BLAH, BLAH, BLAH...
> 
> As long as you KNOW God sent his "son" to die for you and you work to make your self like Christ then you get a ticket to enter His kingdom. No matter how many times you fail and trip and fall. End of story.



Yep, know and accept Christ as your savior and you get to Heaven. But, that is after you realize you are a sinner (conviction from the Holy Spirit) and after you confess (which implies repentence) of those sins.

Too many Christians want to revel and take joy in John 3:16 and give each other high-fives over being in Heaven together but completely and utterly ignore the rest. Where's repentence? Where's denying your old self? Where's preaching the Word and spreading the Gospel?


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## jmharris23 (Jun 27, 2007)

Well PWalls I am starting to think we are in the minority here- believers who actually think we are supposed to alter our lives to match that of Christ and the Word of God.


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## Clark10 (Jun 27, 2007)

I had this conversation over the weeked with one of my relatives over if they accept homosexuals or not.  I am a Heterosexual with a beautiful wife and two children.

I also accept all people that are nice - Thoughtful - caring.  I really don't care what their choices in the bedroom are.  I don't see why so many people do care.  It's none of your business.

I also Have a question for anyone - 

Who would God accept first -

A Kind Caring person who is Homosexual 

A  convict sitting in Jail that accepts Jesus Christ as a Savior and follows the bible to the T.

A Priest who has had relations with a child that has asked God for forgiveness.

I one day wonder if God is testing us all - With Scripture to see if at some points in our life we can stop judging and be more accepting.  The world would be a much better place.


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## Thanatos (Jun 27, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Yep, know and accept Christ as your savior and you get to Heaven. But, that is after you realize you are a sinner (conviction from the Holy Spirit) and after you confess (which implies repentence) of those sins.
> 
> Too many Christians want to revel and take joy in John 3:16 and give each other high-fives over being in Heaven together but completely and utterly ignore the rest. Where's repentance? Where's denying your old self? Where's preaching the Word and spreading the Gospel?



I see where i was confusing. In order to be like Christ you have to be saved. And, only through this can you actually do any thing pleasing to God. If you are truly saved you will try to forgo your worldly temptations (gayness, premarital sex, ect.) While God excepts failure he will send you packing if you desire your temptation more than him...


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## Branchminnow (Jun 27, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Well PWalls I am starting to think we are in the minority here- believers who actually think we are supposed to alter our lives to match that of Christ and the Word of God.



You are in the minority, I have been absent from the forum for a few weeks and its threads like this that have shown me, that most people dont have any intestinal fortitude when it comes to obeying the laws and edicts of GOD. More especially when it effects them personally. 

BTW PWALLS AND JMHARRIS........you two have done a wonderful job trying to explain the correct position what the scripture says and how God feels about it, I read the KJV of the Bible,


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## jmharris23 (Jun 27, 2007)

Here is the simple fact- and I already know those of you against this argument will not agree with this but here goes anyway- JESUS HIMSELF says in Luke 14:25-28

"25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

While we know and understand Jesus does not meant for us to literally hate our family- we are to love Him more than we do them- as well as we are to be willing to change our life. 

Just thought I would add this passage

BTW - Accepatance of the person has nothing to do with acceptance of the lifestyle. As a college student I ate lunch many days with a guy who was flaming gay. He was funny, cool, and likeable. BUT he knew I thought he was wrong. 

He wasn't willing to change. I continue to pray for him. I accept him as a person, just not what he does.


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## Thanatos (Jun 27, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> He wasn't willing to change. I continue to pray for him. I accept him as a person, just not what he does.



This is great. Why can you not let a gay person in church if he is trying to change his lifestyle or sin less. 

"IF" being gay is genetic then it is no different that some one being addicted to alcohol or tobacco or sex. You are genetically predisposed to abusing these items. You believe in God yet you chew tobacco, look at porn. So you try to quit. Same as a gay person trying not to being gay. It is a rock that is heavy to tote. Just be glad God didn't decree you to tote it...


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## PWalls (Jun 27, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> I also Have a question for anyone -
> 
> Who would God accept first -
> 
> ...



That's an easy question. God will accept each and every one of those precisely at the moment that they repent of their sins and accept His Son's sacrifice for salvation. Neither of them is any worse in His eyes than the other or me for that matter. So, to answer "who first", the one that repents and believes first.


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## pfharris1965 (Jun 27, 2007)

*...*



jmharris23 said:


> While we know and understand Jesus does not meant for us to literally hate our family- we are to love Him more than we do them- as well as we are to be willing to change our life.



Seen this one misinterpreted plenty of times...maybe this is part of the rub...

Sorry jmharris23 but this is a little off topic and yet still related... 

One example...30 odd years ago when my Nanny was sick and on her death bed and we missed two or three Sunday services because we were sitting with her as she clung to life...well...about that 3rd Monday, ole deacon Tom (a slick fellow with his pompadore (sp?), polyester suit, and stinch of Old Spice, oh and a Redletter KJV in hand) showed up and proceeded to chastise my Dad in front of the family no less about how we were backsliders and we were all going to go to the devil's residence for missing church...

My Daddy simply stated that he was through with them because if they were any kind of church or christians they would have shown up long before 3 weeks and asked if there was anything they could do to help.  He then showed him to the door and that was that.  My Nanny died a few days later and we heard nothing from a church that we had attended regularly and been active members in for around 4 years.

After that visit from this "deacon", me at age 12 and my brother age 8 saw our Daddy cry.  My brother and I will both tell ya that is probably one of only a handful of times we have seen our Daddy cry.  I guess he then felt so humiliated that he apologized to US...why I am not and will never be sure as he had done nothing wrong...but that ended my heavy involvement with churches and the judgemental types that are often found there...do not need it and never will need it to get into Heaven...

God loves me and I love God...I have accepted Jesus as my Saviour and I do not live perfect but I pray and ask forgiveness and I try to live with conscience, conviction and compassion and from everything I have seen and read, that about settles it.

To close, I would love to meet the man that can match the life of Christ...doubt I ever will though...


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## jmharris23 (Jun 27, 2007)

WPH - Sad story and I respect that- but it has nothing to do with the point I was trying to make. In the church I pastor we don't even have church on Sunday night so we can spend time with our families, but regardless I guess I should have only quoted the last part of that passage. The part that says you must love Christ more than your own life. My point was at some point you have to be willing to lay down those things you struggle with for the betterment of your relationship with Christ. 

Thanatos- That guy could come to my church all he wants. There is a difference looking at porn once or twice in your lifetime and asking forgiveness or doing it two or three times a day not being willing to change your lifestyle. 

As far as carrying the rock and being genetically inclined let me say once again- the bible says its wrong. I dont know what else to say!


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## Festus (Jun 27, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Here is the simple fact- and I already know those of you against this argument will not agree with this but here goes anyway- JESUS HIMSELF says in Luke 14:25-28
> 
> "25Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple. 27And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."
> 
> ...



Some on here have said that you must take each passage literally, exactly how it is written, like it or not.  Why is this passage open for interpretation while others aren't?  
I agree with you on your intrepretation of this passage....however I also believe interpretation/common sense should be used for many other passages in the Bible.... passages that seem to forbid women from being pastors, non-christians going to heaven, etc. etc.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 27, 2007)

My interpretation of this passage and all passages of scripture come from my study of the original language in which it was written, the context of the passage, the culture of the audience to whom it was written,as well as the writing style and intention of the author. 

So my interpretation of this passage comes from the literal greek word that Luke used for hate. English is very limited when it comes to interpreting the Greek, literally it is not meant to mean hate but it was a word used in Jewish culture to mean "lesser love." The word "hate" here is not meant to be taken literally but is rather used figuratively to express a point. It is hyperbole or exaggeration similar to what we use when we say, "That man was as big as a house. . ." 

Jesus is saying that we must love him much more that we love our closest family relationships or even our own lives. We must love him more than our hobbies, more than our goals in life, more than our careers, and more that our self interest. 

Some words are meant to be taken figuratively in the context in which they are used. This is an example of that and and an example of when studying the background of the passage as well as the culture of the audience to whom it was written to comes in handy. ( See this is what your pastor does all day)  

He is not speaking of our emotional feelings toward him or our families but rather he is speaking of our level of commitment. He is saying that our commitment to obey and following him must be greater than any other commitment in our lives. In other words, Jesus must be first in our priorities and loyalties.


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## leroy (Jun 27, 2007)

Festus said:


> Some on here have said that you must take each passage literally, exactly how it is written, like it or not.  Why is this passage open for interpretation while others aren't?
> I agree with you on your intrepretation of this passage....however I also believe interpretation/common sense should be used for many other passages in the Bible.... passages that seem to forbid women from being pastors, non-christians going to heaven, etc. etc.



correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that it could be possible non-christians will be in Heaven


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## jmharris23 (Jun 27, 2007)

leroy said:


> correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that it could be possible non-christians will be in Heaven



I was also wondering about this but my post was getting too long!


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2007)

Festus said:


> Some on here have said that you must take each passage literally, exactly how it is written, like it or not.  Why is this passage open for interpretation while others aren't?
> I agree with you on your intrepretation of this passage....however I also believe interpretation/common sense should be used for many other passages in the Bible.... passages that seem to forbid women from being pastors, non-christians going to heaven, etc. etc.



The biggest issue with scriptures and interpreting them is there is no "private interpretation" of the scriptures. There is only one correct interpretation regardless of who reads it. Some get it right and some wrong, still does not change the meaning of the scripture and what it was inspired to say.........Just a thought.


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2007)

leroy said:


> correct me if I am wrong but are you saying that it could be possible non-christians will be in Heaven



Yes.  The kid running around in the jungles of Africa will be there along with the jews, muslims etc..  Mans many interpretations of the Bible have some believing that God is cruel and unforgiving.  I don't buy it for a minute.


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> The biggest issue with scriptures and interpreting them is there is no "private interpretation" of the scriptures. There is only one correct interpretation regardless of who reads it. Some get it right and some wrong, still does not change the meaning of the scripture and what it was inspired to say.........Just a thought.



The key word here is "interpretation".  Which means..."establishment of meaning, an explanation or establishment of the meaning."  Let me ask you this......how did you choose which intepretation to believe as being the correct one?  

If you look at this time line there have been a couple over the years...



1,400 BC: The first written Word of God: The Ten Commandments delivered to Moses.

500 BC: Completion of All Original Hebrew Manuscripts which make up The 39 Books of the Old Testament.

200 BC: Completion of the Septuagint Greek Manuscripts which contain The 39 Old Testament Books AND 14 Apocrypha Books.

1st Century AD: Completion of All Original Greek Manuscripts which make up The 27 Books of the New Testament.

315 AD: Athenasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, identifies the 27 books of the New Testament which are today recognized as the canon of scripture.

382 AD: Jerome's Latin Vulgate Manuscripts Produced which contain All 80 Books (39 Old Test. + 14 Apocrypha + 27 New Test).

500 AD: Scriptures have been Translated into Over 500 Languages.

600 AD: LATIN was the Only Language Allowed for Scripture.

995 AD: Anglo-Saxon (Early Roots of English Language) Translations of The New Testament Produced.

1384 AD: Wycliffe is the First Person to Produce a (Hand-Written) manuscript Copy of the Complete Bible; All 80 Books.

1455 AD: Gutenberg Invents the Printing Press; Books May Now be mass-Produced Instead of Individually Hand-Written. The First Book Ever Printed is Gutenberg's Bible in Latin.

1516 AD: Erasmus Produces a Greek/Latin Parallel New Testament.

1522 AD: Martin Luther's German New Testament.

1526 AD: William Tyndale's New Testament; The First New Testament printed in the English Language.

1535 AD: Myles Coverdale's Bible; The First Complete Bible printed in the English Language (80 Books: O.T. & N.T. & Apocrypha).

1537 AD: Tyndale-Matthews Bible; The Second Complete Bible printed in English. Done by John "Thomas Matthew" Rogers (80 Books).

1539 AD: The "Great Bible" Printed; The First English Language Bible Authorized for Public Use (80 Books).

1560 AD: The Geneva Bible Printed; The First English Language Bible to add Numbered Verses to Each Chapter (80 Books).

1568 AD: The Bishops Bible Printed; The Bible of which the King James was a Revision (80 Books).

1609 AD: The Douay Old Testament is added to the Rheims New Testament (of 1582) Making the First Complete English Catholic Bible; Translated from the Latin Vulgate (80 Books).

1611 AD: The King James Bible Printed; Originally with All 80 Books. The Apocrypha was Officially Removed in 1885 Leaving Only 66 Books.

1782 AD: Robert Aitken's Bible; The First English Language Bible (KJV) Printed in America.

1791 AD: Isaac Collins and Isaiah Thomas Respectively Produce the First Family Bible and First Illustrated Bible Printed in America. Both were King James Versions, with All 80 Books.

1808 AD: Jane Aitken's Bible (Daughter of Robert Aitken); The First Bible to be Printed by a Woman.

1833 AD: Noah Webster's Bible; After Producing his Famous Dictionary, Webster Printed his Own Revision of the King James Bible.

1841 AD: English Hexapla New Testament; an Early Textual Comparison showing the Greek and 6 Famous English Translations in Parallel Columns.

1846 AD: The Illuminated Bible; The Most Lavishly Illustrated Bible printed in America. A King James Version, with All 80 Books.

1885 AD: The "English Revised Version" Bible; The First Major English Revision of the KJV.

1901 AD: The "American Standard Version"; The First Major American Revision of the KJV.

1971 AD: The "New American Standard Bible" (NASB) is Published as a "Modern and Accurate Word for Word English Translation" of the Bible.

1973 AD: The "New International Version" (NIV) is Published as a "Modern and Accurate Phrase for Phrase English Translation" of the Bible.

1982 AD: The "New King James Version" (NKJV) is Published as a "Modern English Version Maintaining the Original Style of the King James."

2002 AD: The English Standard Version (ESV) is Published as a translation


Source:
http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/#timeline


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## Thanatos (Jun 28, 2007)

Festus said:


> Yes.  The kid running around in the jungles of Africa will be there along with the jews, muslims etc..  Mans many interpretations of the Bible have some believing that God is cruel and unforgiving.  I don't buy it for a minute.



Rut-Roh...


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## Spotlite (Jun 28, 2007)

Festus said:


> The key word here is "interpretation".  Which means..."establishment of meaning, an explanation or establishment of the meaning."  Let me ask you this......how did you choose which intepretation to believe as being the correct one?
> 
> If you look at this time line there have been a couple over the years...
> 
> ...


On my knees in prayer...................


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## Lead Poison (Jun 28, 2007)

Branchminnow said:


> You are in the minority, I have been absent from the forum for a few weeks and its threads like this that have shown me, that most people dont have any intestinal fortitude when it comes to obeying the laws and edicts of GOD. More especially when it effects them personally.
> 
> BTW PWALLS AND JMHARRIS........you two have done a wonderful job trying to explain the correct position what the scripture says and how God feels about it, I read the KJV of the Bible,



I totally agree with BRANCH, PWALLS and JMHARRIS. BTW, the Bible says to road to heaven is narrow, while the path to destruction is wide....think about it. Yes, I'm glad to be in the minority gentleman. 

Homosexuality is sin...nothing else. It should NEVER be accepted or condoned. Nor should any sin. Sin should be at all times and places rebuked...but NEVER rationalized. Like it or not, homosexuals make a very bad choice for themselves for which they will be judged. They CAN choose differently.


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## DOXIELADY (Jun 28, 2007)

Wether or not they feel attracted to the same sex as far back as one can remember,if the Lord says its wrong then its wrong ,we all have sinful desires because we are born in sin, but you dont act upon them you pray and seek after the will of the Lord,I believe if your living a homosexal lifestyle and going to church and claimed to be saved you havent let the Lord fully take control over your life sweet and bitter water doesent come from the same fountain when we get saved we lay down our flesh ,live in the spirit ,I know of a man that was gay got saved and he left that lifestyle{and he thought he was born that way] because the Lord opened his eyes  to what he was doing was wrong.


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## Clark10 (Jun 28, 2007)

I just don't see how spiritual people can hate and judge so much.

I believe in God and a higher being but it's a lot of this judging in the church's that has made me question it.

I know I will get a lot of heat and flack for stating that but it is how I feel.

I also question how I can have a best friend that is Jewish and I am not but in the end we can not walk in Heaven together.  If that is the case I will walk with him Here.


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## opie44 (Jun 28, 2007)

Adam was a man, Eve was a woman.....CASE CLOSED!!!!


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## Festus (Jun 28, 2007)

opie44 said:


> Adam was a man, Eve was a woman.....CASE CLOSED!!!!



Whether you believe in Adam and Eve or evolution it still takes a man and a woman to procreate..I'm pretty certain we can all agree on that one!   
But like it or not...God also created Steve.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jun 28, 2007)

> Whether you believe in Adam and Eve or evolution it still takes a man and a woman to procreate.



So with whom did the children of Adam and Eve procreate?  The choices were somewhat limited weren't they?


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## jneil (Jun 28, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> So with whom did the children of Adam and Eve procreate?  The choices were somewhat limited weren't they?



That's a question that will get you tossed out of Sunday school.


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## leroy (Jun 28, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> So with whom did the children of Adam and Eve procreate?  The choices were somewhat limited weren't they?



what has this got to do with gays in the Church? You can bet it wasent Adam and Steve or Eve and Ann. Some things we will never be able to answer on this earth. One thing is sure as Christians we can not condone things such as homosexuality.


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## leroy (Jun 28, 2007)

DOXIELADY said:


> Wether or not they feel attracted to the same sex as far back as one can remember,if the Lord says its wrong then its wrong ,we all have sinful desires because we are born in sin, but you dont act upon them you pray and seek after the will of the Lord,I believe if your living a homosexal lifestyle and going to church and claimed to be saved you havent let the Lord fully take control over your life sweet and bitter water doesent come from the same fountain when we get saved we lay down our flesh ,live in the spirit ,I know of a man that was gay got saved and he left that lifestyle{and he thought he was born that way] because the Lord opened his eyes  to what he was doing was wrong.



good post Doxie!!!


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## jmharris23 (Jun 28, 2007)

Festus said:


> Whether you believe in Adam and Eve or evolution it still takes a man and a woman to procreate..I'm pretty certain we can all agree on that one!
> But like it or not...God also created Steve.



Just a question for thought- Is it possible that God did not create Steve? God created Adam and Eve in perfect condition. They decided to not remain that way, through their sin- all "creation" after that is spoiled and not what God "intended" it to be. 

Just a thought- I know it brings up some other issues- just wanted to throw it out there.


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## jneil (Jun 28, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Just a question for thought- Is it possible that God did not create Steve? God created Adam and Eve in perfect condition. They decided to not remain that way, through their sin- all "creation" after that is spoiled and not what God "intended" it to be.
> 
> Just a thought- I know it brings up some other issues- just wanted to throw it out there.



God created everything.


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## PWalls (Jun 28, 2007)

jneil said:


> God created everything.



Of course He did. However, He did not create SIN. He did not create a person with the genetic disposition to participate in what He considers "abomination".

He did create a person to make a "choice".


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## ponyboy (Jun 28, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> I just don't see how spiritual people can hate and judge so much.
> 
> I believe in God and a higher being but it's a lot of this judging in the church's that has made me question it.
> 
> ...



...........


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## jmharris23 (Jun 28, 2007)

I know God created everything but Romans 8:19-23 says, 
" 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. 23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 

This passage tells us that since the fall of man- creation is groaning for relief from the sin that has been placed upon it.


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## jmharris23 (Jun 28, 2007)

And as far as hating and judging people goes - I hate no one and God does the judging. I have only stated what is easily found by reading the bible.


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## PWalls (Jun 29, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> And as far as hating and judging people goes - I hate no one and God does the judging. I have only stated what is easily found by reading the bible.




Careful. Apparently the majority of people think that is hating people.


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## Clark10 (Jun 29, 2007)

I believe the Topic says - NO REASON FOR GAYS IN CHURCH.

I think that is someone judging.

Also I agree that a gay relationship cannot have a child.  

Does this mean that a man and woman who can procreate but choose not too should be condemned.

Its people's choices to whom they have a relationship with is how feel.  As long as they are happy and nice caring people.


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## leroy (Jun 29, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Careful. Apparently the majority of people think that is hating people.



Looks that way, no matter if its  wrong. Thats the new philosophy I reckon not to make anyone feel bad its come one come all dosent matter what you do. Sorta like the Church I know that has done away with baptism's if you dont want to go through it as not to make anyone uncomfortable.


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## PWalls (Jun 29, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> I believe the Topic says - NO REASON FOR GAYS IN CHURCH.
> 
> I think that is someone judging.
> 
> ...



If you would care to read the other 190 posts you would see that the majority of us don't care if a homosexual person is in Church *as long as they are not continuing to live in that sinful lifestyle*. A confessed and repented homosexual is no different than any other churchgoer who has confessed and repented their sin (murder, adultery, lying, cheating on taxes, etc) as well.

As for your last sentence, obviously you have every right to have that opinion. Just as I have every right to express here on this board to you and others that the opinion is totally and scripturally wrong. That's not judging, that's reading plain and simple language in Scripture.


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## FishFanatic (Jun 29, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> I also question how I can have a best friend that is Jewish and I am not but in the end we can not walk in Heaven together.  If that is the case I will walk with him Here.



I really don't think that you won't see your Jewish friend in heaven with you.  If he is Jewish he belongs to God.


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## ponyboy (Jun 30, 2007)

DaGris said:


> mmmmm......has anyone thought that maybe a homosexual life style is not a choice. Yes, I'm sure there is some of them who just like it or just do it to rebel against thier parents but there are some who are just born that way. My sister in law is gay. She has never had any interest in a man, ever, even when she was very young. Yes, she looks like a woman, very pretty, and all of her pass girfriends and her current one are also very pretty. She is a member of our church, believes in god and knows jesus is her lord and savor. Will god look upon her one day and banish her?....I dont think so.



 i don t know if your god will banish her .......but i will pray fer good things ........god bless n take care ......


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## jmharris23 (Jun 30, 2007)

Wow ponyboy what a great job of joining what was up until this point a mostly educated debate. 

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with others opinions on here- thats what debate is all about- but we could probably do without all the name calling


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## ponyboy (Jun 30, 2007)

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Sure are a bunch of rules and regulations to go to church where some of you go. I believe that Jesus gave but one regualtion to be His child.
> 
> "...whosoever believes in Him shall have everlasting life."
> 
> ...


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## Vernon Holt (Jun 30, 2007)

*Gays in Church*



ponyboy said:


> "*god bless n hope the problem with the gays n your church works out ........prayers sent*" ..........


 
Never mind, you are wasting your time.  With your current attitude, your prayer would not even reach the rooftop.

You were wise to delete the post containing the personal attack, otherwise it would have been deleted for you along with the possibility that your membership on these forums would be in review.  Perhaps you should read the rules since it is obvious that you have not done so.


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## Branchminnow (Jun 30, 2007)

Clark10 said:


> I just don't see how spiritual people can hate and judge so much.


You are confusing TRUTH with hate my friend. I dont hate anybody, but the truth will stand when the world is on fire.


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## threeleggedpigmy (Jul 1, 2007)

Love the sinner, but not the sin.  We are not the ones who judge other people actions.  we are the ones who have to account for are own actions.


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## Lead Poison (Jul 1, 2007)

threeleggedpigmy said:


> Love the sinner, but not the sin.  We are not the ones who judge other people actions.  we are the ones who have to account for are own actions.



You simply cannot allow a homosexual couple to sit together, hold hands, hug or act, like they are a couple in church. You may as well allow people to sit next to your kids that are intoxicated or high on drugs. 

It's definitely NOT judging.


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## Ta-ton-ka chips (Jul 1, 2007)

Lead Poison said:


> You simply cannot allow a homosexual couple to sit together, hold hands, hug or act, like they are a couple in church. You may as well allow people to sit next to your kids that are intoxicated or high on drugs.
> 
> It's definitely NOT judging.



Support Christian Family Values?
I guess I just don't support Christian Family Values, I try very hard not to judge or hate others.

Don't worry about replying to this post, I'll never see it...
but you christians continue on with your bashing and hate-mongering... btw today is Sunday, time to pick and choose who gets to go to your tax exempt churches


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## 60Grit (Jul 1, 2007)

I know that posting in the manner that I am about to will invoke a flurry of scripture quoting. I guess that is the risk one takes. However, I do it as a reminder of how Jesus set an example for the manner in which we should live our lives. 

I am aware that there are thousands of scriptures that lend to contrary stands on this topic and others, but here's the bottom line. As Christian leaders within our church there are certain standards we must uphold our mentors to. Likewise, as Christian leaders we must also know when to put the kid gloves on and take new comers, troubled and wayward people and handle them with care.

I have said it recently, and I will say it again, this forum is not the place for hardcore scripture invocations. There are just too many lost and yearning for answer people out there that may be reading it to drive them away with such hard line stances.

The only time I would think that it would be acceptable would be on threads that specifically call it out.

Now, sorry for the long windedness, but here are a few scriptures that I feel pertain to this topic, and convey what some of the folks that have taken a "hardline" beating over it really were trying to get across.

*Luke 6:37 (New International Version)                                         "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.*

*Matthew 7:1 (New International Version)                                                         "Do not judge, or you too will be judged.*

*Ezekiel 33:20*
*Yet, O house of Israel, you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."*

*John 8:50*
*I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.*

And finally the most ardent of arguments for living as Christ did.....

*John 12:47*
*"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.*

John 12:47 is perhaps the one that sticks out most in my mind when my heart feels led to judge or condemn a person for their actions or lifestyle. It reminds me that there is an alternative that goes hand in hand with the Great Commission.

This is a great topic for debate, can we not carry it out without indirectly condemning each other as Christians????


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## jmharris23 (Jul 1, 2007)

"I have said it recently, and I will say it again, this forum is not the place for hardcore scripture invocations. There are just too many lost and yearning for answer people out there that may be reading it to drive them away with such hard line stances." - 60Grit


 C'mon now really- How is somone supposed to have a spiritual debate without quoting scripture. The problem I have with your quote is when we take out scripture all we are using for debate is opinion.

My opinion isn't worth squat- I think I will stick to using GOD'S WORD to base my debates on. 

NEVER NEVER NEVER will those who are "lost and yearning" be driven away by scripture. 

BTW - God's stance is pretty "hardline" 

You also need to understand when Jesus is talking about judging in scripture. He is talking about judging the lost, judging also does include assessing a person's spiritual condition. These are two totally different ideas.

Just using your example of Luke 6:37- Jesus goes on to say in the same passage in verses  "43“No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. 44Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. 45The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks."

This is the assessment of someone's spiritual condition. 

If I am not mistaken the orignal idea of this thread was should openly practicing homosexuals be allowed to become "members" not attenders of a church. 

You can assess their spiritual condition without judging, but you must use scripture to do so, not your own opinion.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 1, 2007)

Oh yeah and in the John 12:47 passage you quoted maybe you didn't read verses after that
47“As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

As Christians we must tell those who do not follow the commands of Christ that there will be a day of judgement


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## SBG (Jul 1, 2007)

Matthew 7th chapter:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God's word...wrest with it to your demise.


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## SBG (Jul 1, 2007)

Ta-ton-ka chips said:


> Support Christian Family Values?
> I guess I just don't support Christian Family Values, I try very hard not to judge or hate others.
> 
> Don't worry about replying to this post, I'll never see it...
> but you christians continue on with your bashing and hate-mongering... btw today is Sunday, time to pick and choose who gets to go to your tax exempt churches


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## Jody Hawk (Jul 1, 2007)

How are we supposed to win lost souls to Christ if we turn them away? Remember when the Pharisees questioned Jesus on this, "Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?". Jesus replied, " It is not the healthy that need a doctor but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." 

The real question here is, What would Jesus do? Jesus would not turn them away and neither should we.


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## PWalls (Jul 1, 2007)

Well, the thread has basically devolved to where most seem to get to on here. When a Christian uses Scripture to prove a point or state an opinion, there are many on here who throw out the "Don't judge" argument. Sad thing is that most of the ones throwing that out don't really know what it means in the first place.

Homosexuality is a sin. Fact. A born-again repentent Christian is not to continue to live in the same sin daily. Fact.

If a "lost" soul that doesn't know God that lives a homosexual lifestyle wants to come to my church and hear the Gospel as part of their search for the Truth, then come on, you can have my seat. If that same person gets saved (repents and believes), then Hallelujah and Praise the Lord because I have a new brother/sister. If that same person continues to live in their sin without repentence, then I have Scriptural doctrine to question whether or not they were truly saved. I may not know for a fact (only God can), but you will know a tree by the fruit it bears. There is also Scriptural doctrine that tells the Church to separate from that Brother/Sister that continues to live in unrepentent sin and a process to handle that.

Oh, for the "don't judge" crowd. I personally welcome it. I have an accountability Brother. If I stray, he lets me know. It only makes me stronger. I would rather him look around his plank to point out my splinter. That way we both grow stronger in our walk.


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## 60Grit (Jul 1, 2007)

PWalls said:


> If a "lost" soul that doesn't know God that lives a homosexual lifestyle wants to come to my church and hear the Gospel as part of their search for the Truth, then come on, you can have my seat. If that same person gets saved (repents and believes), then Hallelujah and Praise the Lord because I have a new brother/sister. If that same person continues to live in their sin without repentence, then I have Scriptural doctrine to question whether or not they were truly saved. I may not know for a fact (only God can), but you will know a tree by the fruit it bears. There is also Scriptural doctrine that tells the Church to separate from that Brother/Sister that continues to live in unrepentent sin and a process to handle that.


 
That is all I was trying to say. As for devolving, when the point you just made was brought up in the beginning of the thread some of the professional Christians got all indignant and proceeded to judge not only the sinners but their brother Christians, as has the ones calling me part of the don't judge crowd.

I was merely responding to one particular post prior to this.

You boys continue to exhibit the inability think openly and continue to lump folks into groups and prequalify whether they are YOUR type of Christian or not.

Until this practice ceases, you will only understand bits and pieces of the points I am trying to make for they only pass through the tunnel you are pearing through in bits and pieces.


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## Twenty five ought six (Jul 1, 2007)

> A born-again repentent Christian is not to continue to live in the same sin daily.



Must be quite a challenge to find a new sin daily in which to live.

Surely you are not suggesting that a "born-again repentent  (sic) Christian" does not live in daily sin, are you?


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## jmharris23 (Jul 1, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Must be quite a challenge to find a new sin daily in which to live.
> 
> Surely you are not suggesting that a "born-again repentent  (sic) Christian" does not live in daily sin, are you?




Don't think that's exactly what he was trying to say but if you are doing the same thing over and over you might have a problem. 

We all sin- we all know that. But for example, when I was a younger and played softball I got kicked out of almost every league I played in - I had a horrible temper. 

Now I still have a quick temper but with prayer, the study of scripture, and God's grace I have overcome that type of display. 

Yes I still get angry and yes I still sin when I do that. But I am better able to control myself, therefore remaining a better example for Christ. 

This is the process of sanctification or growing in Christ. I will never ever be perfect, but as I grow in Christ my struggles do become different. 

The point I think that most of us "conservative" boys are trying to make is that when we truly give ourselves to Christ we see this kind of growth in our lives. 

Someone who never changes or refuses to change does not bear the fruit that Jesus speaks of often.


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## SBG (Jul 2, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Someone who never changes or refuses to change does not bear the fruit that Jesus speaks of often.



Great point.

Along with that I would add that Christians that cannot discern the most basic of Biblical doctrines are in need of some serious study and prayer. 

It truly is sad that there are so many on here that are still in the "milk" stage. It is not surprising though, since God's Word clearly teaches why that happens also.


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## PWalls (Jul 2, 2007)

60Grit said:


> You boys continue to exhibit the inability think openly and continue to lump folks into groups and prequalify whether they are YOUR type of Christian or not.
> 
> Until this practice ceases, you will only understand bits and pieces of the points I am trying to make for they only pass through the tunnel you are pearing through in bits and pieces.



60Grit/Scooter,

If the inability to think open by your definition means to stray from a literal interpretation or a watering down of Scripture, then I will not be open. If by open, you mean another viewpoint of Scripture, then I am open to learning more about Scripture.

And, again, the way is straight and narrow. That means you need a tight focus. I have no problem viewing Scripture and listening to opinion, but if it differs from Scripture, it will be blocked out.

Spritual Growth is not achieved by broadening your understanding beyond and outside of Scripture. Spiritual Growth is achieved by broadening your understanding through and in Scripture.


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## Thanatos (Jul 2, 2007)

jmharris23 said:


> Don't think that's exactly what he was trying to say but if you are doing the same thing over and over you might have a problem.
> 
> We all sin- we all know that. But for example, when I was a younger and played softball I got kicked out of almost every league I played in - I had a horrible temper.
> 
> ...



You sir just made every one's counter point. When you say,

"Yes I still get angry and yes I still sin when I do that. But I am better able to control myself, therefore remaining a better example for Christ."

Here is an example of a gay man coming to church. He tries to quit having sex with another man. He fails, then repents and tries again! This time he tries even more to quit his tendencies. He goes even longer with out having sex with a another man. Yet, he fails again and ask God for  forgiveness. What does this sound like? It sounds like you or I struggling with our vices that we are tempted by!


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## SBG (Jul 2, 2007)

Thanatos said:


> You sir just made every one's counter point. When you say,



Actually he didn't.

The discussion is whether unrepentant sin is accepted. It is not about the personal failures of a believer-which we all have.

I understand your point Thanatos, but your comparison is not valid in this instance.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 2, 2007)

Yeah Thanatos you misunderstood that one, or maybe I wasn't clear. 

What I mean is that while I still get angry, it stays on the inside - We all get angry
I do not act on it. 

I learned how to do this by reading Paul's words in Ephesians 4:26- In your anger, do not sin. I learned that it is not how I feel, but what I do with how I feel. Through this I have been able to better deal with this particular "wekaness" of mine. 

This is evidence of spiritual growth in my life because when I was younger I ALWAYS acted on it- i.e. cussing, throwing stuff, yelling

Through the grace of Christ and spiritual growth I have overcome this

My point was that in the life of the repentant believer there is evidence of growth and ultimately the ability to overcome something we are struggling with

From what I have understood in this conversation, most think there is no reason for a homosexual to even try and overcome that lifestyle, because that is who they are. 

That's where I have a problem


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## Twenty five ought six (Jul 2, 2007)

> The discussion is whether unrepentant sin is accepted. It is not about the personal failures of a believer-which we all have.



Actually the discussion started out out about whether certain "unrepentant" sinners had a place in church along with the alcoholics, drug abusers, wife beaters, wife cheaters, abortionists, the greedy and so on.

I'm thoroughly fascinated at the folks who are absolutely certain about what  decisions God will make about the conduct of *other* people on that final Judgment Day.  Personally, I find that focusing on how *I* will be judged consumes most of my time and devotional efforts.

It's hard ( I would say impossible) for me to believe God will hold *me  *accountable because I allowed homosexuals (or any of the other sinners listed) to be a part of* his* church.


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## SBG (Jul 2, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Actually the discussion started out out about whether certain "unrepentant" sinners had a place in church along with the alcoholics, drug abusers, wife beaters, wife cheaters, abortionists, the greedy and so on.




Exactly.


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## FireDoc (Jul 2, 2007)

And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing [them] rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground; And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night. And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat. But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them. And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him, And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly. Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof. And they said, Stand back. And they said [again], This one [fellow] came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, [even] Lot, and came near to break the door. But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door. And they smote the men that [were] at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door. And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring [them] out of this place: For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it. 

Genesis 19:1-13  
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. 

Leviticus 18:22  
For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people. 

Leviticus 18:29  
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them. 

Leviticus 20:13  
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 

Romans 1:26-27  
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them. 

Romans 1:32  
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 

1 Corinthians 6:9-11  
But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully; Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For *****mongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; 

1 Timothy 1:8-10


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## Twenty five ought six (Jul 2, 2007)

And your point is?

Well let's see.



> Romans 1:32
> Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.



I don't see anything there that says that the "abusers of themselves with mankind" are any worse than that whole list of other transgressions.  If it means anything, the "idiotidiotidiotidiot" sins are listed fourth among the transgressions.  While they ALL may not get into heaven if unrepentant, it says nothing about ANY of them not being allowed in church.  I always thought that the sinner had up until the moment of death  to repent, and ask forgiveness of all his or her sins. Again my understanding is that that would be a matter between the sinner and God.  Note that all of the various sinners including the homosexuals were washed, sanctified, and justified by the Lord.  They weren't turned away from the church because of their transgressions. 


BTW, do you think Lot's daughters went to Heaven after what they did to their poor old dad?


P.S. who would have thought h-o-m-o was on the censor's  "do not use" list .


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## jmharris23 (Jul 2, 2007)

Twenty five ought six said:


> Actually the discussion started out out about whether certain "unrepentant" sinners had a place in church along with the alcoholics, drug abusers, wife beaters, wife cheaters, abortionists, the greedy and so on.



Well I think it really boils down to the fact that some of us have a different interpretation to " a place in church" 

Nobody has said that they should not be allowed to come to church. Just not be allowed "membership"


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## Twenty five ought six (Jul 2, 2007)

> Nobody has said that they should not be allowed to come to church. Just not be allowed "membership"



Well that takes us back to my earlier question about person's with their second or third spouse.  According to The Bible, they are "adulturers", maybe even "fornicators" (see list above).  Are they to be denied membership too? Or is it o.k. now for the church to accept a person with multiple spouses?  Please tell me that your church doesn't have any members practicing serial polygamy.

If you look at the list of transgressions, fornicators and adulterers  are listed before the effeminate.  I'm not seeing anyone going on a crusade to kick the fornicators and adulterers out of church.

I'm old enough to remember when divorced people were turned out of the church.  Even if they weren't the pastors wouldn't perform the ceremony for a second wedding in the church.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 2, 2007)

Well honestly I do not know the answers to all things (although I have never claimed to) my answer is that as a pastor I would prefer to have people as members who are out in the community living Christ-like lives. Do I have some members who are not doing this- obviously I do. Would I like for them to act more like Christ- obviously I would. 

While none of us are anywhere near perfect, some of us do try to "follow Christ" and live His example as much as possible 

To me this means living life as He would- while not being overly critical or judgmental is certainly part of that- so is following the Word of God. 

BTW - That verse that was quoted above is not Romans 1:31 but 1 Corinthians 6:9-11

In this passage after Paul makes the list he goes on to say 
"11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

" That is what some of you WERE, not ARE. If you give your life to Christ, what you WERE should not be what you ARE. 


Yes I am going to fail- but it is my daily prayer not to cause anybody to stumble over me in their pursuit for Christ


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## FireDoc (Jul 2, 2007)

everyone who hears, believes, confesses, repents and is baptized into christ is a member of christ's church. Not membership as we think it today as "paying for membership. Maybe i'm catching the wrong point.


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