# Fig tree head scratcher - what am I missing here?



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

Okay, here's the story of hungry Jesus and the fig tree. Jesus curses the tree because it's not bearing figs DURING THE SEASON WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE FIGS!
I can see a lesson here for Christians about not bearing fruit. But when it's not the time of year that the tree should have figs, then why would Jesus be surprised? 
I just can't see how this makes any sense at any level. Try to visualize this situation from the point-of-view of a disciple. Wouldn't Jesus come off as unhinged?
Any thoughts? 

12 The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. 13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. 14 Then he said to the tree, “May no one ever eat fruit from you again.” And his disciples heard him say it.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 19, 2022)

Another good guy story doing rational things.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay, here's the story of hungry Jesus and the fig tree. Jesus curses the tree because it's not bearing figs DURING THE SEASON WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE FIGS!
> I can see a lesson here for Christians about not bearing fruit. But when it's not the time of year that the tree should have figs, then why would Jesus be surprised?
> I just can't see how this makes any sense at any level. Try to visualize this situation from the point-of-view of a disciple. Wouldn't Jesus come off as unhinged?
> Any thoughts?
> ...


Throughout the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s vineyard and even prophecy talks about the budding of the fig tree that’s believed to be Israel becoming a nation.

The cursing of the fig tree is deeper than the cursing the fig tree.

The Disciples see a dried up cursed tree that didn’t produce out of season and that’s all they see. Jesus talks to them about faith…….

That fig tree (Israel) didn’t produce when it was in season, either and God has promised to replant that fig tree to be productive.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Another good guy story doing rational things.



Sidenote: soon after the fig tree meltdown, Jesus flips over tables. Most (if not all) of us know the story of Jesus overturning the money changers tables. However, I found out that according to historians that the place where Jesus did this was a huge marketplace covering ACRES of activity.   Also it would have been guarded by security, possibly Roman soldiers. This makes sense, even today cops/security guards patrol the flea markets.
So how many tables would Jesus have to flip over before security throws him out/arrests him/kills him on the spot? 

Bear in mind that the table flipping occurred right after the fig tree cursing. At what point would his disciples say "with all due respect, me and the guys have been noticing a few things......"  ?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Throughout the Old Testament Israel is described as God’s vineyard and even prophecy talks about the budding of the fig tree that’s believed to be Israel becoming a nation.
> 
> The cursing of the fig tree is deeper than the cursing the fig tree.
> 
> ...



Oh I see, I think. Well if that's what the story means, then it seems like the story was made up "after the fact" to match up to Old Testament/Jewish prophecy.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Sidenote: soon after the fig tree meltdown, Jesus flips over tables. Most (if not all) of us know the story of Jesus overturning the money changers tables. However, I found out that according to historians that the place where Jesus did this was a huge marketplace covering ACRES of activity.   Also it would have been guarded by security, possibly Roman soldiers. This makes sense, even today cops/security guards patrol the flea markets.
> So how many tables would Jesus have to flip over before security throws him out/arrests him/kills him on the spot?
> 
> Bear in mind that the table flipping occurred right after the fig tree cursing. At what point would his disciples say "with all due respect, me and the guys have been noticing a few things......"  ?


Chicks like the Bad Boys


----------



## bullethead (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Oh I see, I think. Well if that's what the story means, then it seems like the story was made up "after the fact" to match up to Old Testament/Jewish prophecy.


It isn't hard to embellish new stories to fit with previously known stories.
It's like getting the answers for the math quiz from the previous period.

In the case of religion the writings have to be written after generations of people are gone in the hopes that those that were there are gone and cannot refute it.
Too many miraculous events supposedly happened, were witnessed by hundreds if not thousands, and were never spoken of or were recorded as they happened. 

There are many opinion as to whether or not the people of those times saw so many miraculous things that they were unfazed, or that maybe some real events that were really less spectacular were later embellished to add to the legend, or it was all made up decades later.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

"There are many opinion as to whether or not the people of those times saw so many miraculous things that they were unfazed, or that maybe some real events that were really less spectacular were later embellished to add to the legend, or it was all made up decades later." - Bullet head

As to your first point: I posit that if miracles (or weird unexplainable supernatural things) occurred on a regular basis back in the day, then it would take LESS FAITH to believe in god than it would in 2022 when miracles/supernatural things do not happen on a regular basis, and certainly not in front of many people.

Let's consider the Garden of Eden: God literally talking with, and walked with Adam and Eve. It wouldn't take much convincing to believe that god is real. Or flash forward to Jesus feeding the multitudes with a small amount of fish & bread. Anyone seeing this would certainly be convinced of his reality.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "There are many opinion as to whether or not the people of those times saw so many miraculous things that they were unfazed, or that maybe some real events that were really less spectacular were later embellished to add to the legend, or it was all made up decades later." - Bullet head
> 
> As to your first point: I posit that if miracles (or weird unexplainable supernatural things) occurred on a regular basis back in the day, then it would take LESS FAITH to believe in god than it would in 2022 when miracles/supernatural things do not happen on a regular basis, and certainly not in front of many people.
> 
> Let's consider the Garden of Eden: God literally talking with, and walked with Adam and Eve. It wouldn't take much convincing to believe that god is real. Or flash forward to Jesus feeding the multitudes with a small amount of fish & bread. Anyone seeing this would certainly be convinced of his reality.


I would think that a non believer, Jewish, Roman, Greek, Egyptian or any possible creed living, working, trading in and around the region and saw what Jesus did would tell everyone they could plus write it down as writing and drawing were the most up to date social media of the times. 
Not according to history outside of the Bible though. It is as if those things only happened in writings written decades and generations after they supposedly happened in real time.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I would think that a non believer, Jewish, Roman, Greek, Egyptian or any possible creed living, working, trading in and around the region and saw what Jesus did would tell everyone they could plus write it down as writing and drawing were the most up to date social media of the times.
> Not according to history outside of the Bible though. It is as if those things only happened in writings written decades and generations after they supposedly happened in real time.



Yes that is what this seems like.   Early Christians didn't even begin to write down what would (eventually) become the New Testament until decades after his death. It wasn't canonized until centuries later. Of course many writings were tossed out along the way and are now considered forgeries, inaccurate or were destroyed or lost. 

Sidenote: Islam follows a similar path. The Quran timeline took a couple of centuries to play out too and many* books were burned as part of the editing process*, and it's recent enough (8th and 9th centuries AD) to be well documented. If burning books as you edit & compile doesn't send up a red flag of suspicion, nothing does IMHO.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Oh I see, I think. Well if that's what the story means, then it seems like the story was made up "after the fact" to match up to Old Testament/Jewish prophecy.


Sounds like you answered your own questions 

*Fig tree head scratcher - what am I missing here?*


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Wouldn't Jesus come off as unhinged?



As opposed to how He came off with “eat my flesh and drink my blood”?

Not sure why this story is so troublesome.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Sounds like you answered your own questions
> 
> I think I did! And I didn't even need a theology degree to figure it out.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> As opposed to how He came off with “eat my flesh and drink my blood”?
> 
> Not sure why this story is so troublesome.



The story isn't troublesome so much as nonsensical IMHO.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think I did! And I didn't even need a theology degree to figure it out.


A theology degree is just a piece of paper that gives self edification to one man and awes another  lol

Scripture is clear as for where biblical understanding comes from.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The story isn't troublesome so much as nonsensical IMHO.





> nonsensical IMHO.


Outside of your honest opinion the story has a deep and sincere meaning that’s easily comprehendible and very coherent to many teenage Christians that leave them wondering why folks that acknowledge it’s “nonsensical” try to dispute the story with non related “facts”.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

I guess because I'm coming at the story not putting any hidden meaning, "spin" or symbolism or metaphor or whatever on it. You know, using "unrelated facts" like trees shouldn't be expected to produce fruit during the time of year when they don't produce fruit.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 19, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I guess because I'm coming at the story not putting any hidden meaning, "spin" or symbolism or metaphor or whatever on it. You know, using "unrelated facts" like trees shouldn't be expected to produce fruit during the time of year when they don't produce fruit.


But it never was about that fig tree. There’s no hidden meaning or private interpretation. I say it all the time you have to use the entire Bible and not “a story”. 

The unrelated facts I’m speaking of are those other sources that have no spiritual connection but try to explain away the spiritual meaning.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 19, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But it never was about that fig tree. There’s no hidden meaning or private interpretation. I say it all the time you have to use the entire Bible and not “a story”.
> 
> The unrelated facts I’m speaking of are those other sources that have no spiritual connection but try to explain away the spiritual meaning.



So it seems to be about a fig tree but it's not really about a fig tree. Clear as mud!


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But it never was about that fig tree. There’s no hidden meaning or private interpretation. I say it all the time you have to use the entire Bible and not “a story”.
> 
> The unrelated facts I’m speaking of are those other sources that have no spiritual connection but try to explain away the spiritual meaning.


The bible contains too many specific stories to not be specific per story.
1500 years worth of vague metaphors is a long time to say Israel was born, died, and will some day rise again.

Your explanation is about how you reconcile the conglomeration of detailed stories that do not make sense individually as an excuse to somehow tie them all together as a whole. You have to suspend what is literally and specifically said in those pages in favor of manipulating them to pretend one specific thing that is described and named 1000 years prior and another specific thing that is specifically described 1000 years later which by every other means of identification methods are in fact two totally different things are now exactly the same. Facts are facts when convenient and they are metaphors when needed in a blend of they mean what they mean as written unless it sounds so stupid there is no excuse so now they do not mean what mean as written they obviously mean something else. Too many blurred lines to which even like minded belivers disagree on.
If the bible is as you understand it to be then it is further proof that it is  2 completely different books containing different themes of men's attempts at trying to explain their cultures beginnings and history through their religious understandings shoddily blended into one in an attempt to take one religion and turn it into another. Jesus is just as much or as little of a metaphor in that understanding as the fig tree when lines are that unclear.

There is no way that you raised your family in a similar style and not only expected them to know what you were talking about but then they miraculously somehow did. 30 years ago you didn't tell your children a story about the horses escaping a man's barn 200 years ago because the blacksmith used the wrong blend of Ore to make the latch on the door and expect them to understand it as instructions to make sound financial investments by making sure they do their research when hiring a financial guy 30 years later. After the fact when brought to their attention sure it COULD seem as though that is what you meant but it could be interpreted to mean 10,000 other things that happened daily in those 30 years also. Put 1000 years between the initial story and the new audience and someone reconciling with themselves that one story is the same as the other is ridiculous.
What would be the look on your kids faces if you'd tell them:
"You see you are broke today because the horses represent your money, your inept financial guy was the blacksmith and the Ore was the representation of the bad investments he used. The man who lost his horses was You!  I tried to warn you 30 years ago but you just didn't listen! But see how it all makes sense now.....?"
It is someone trying to use one story to represent another completely unrelated story with each story containing totally unrelated specific details and trying to pass them off as being the same. They just are not.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So it seems to be about a fig tree but it's not really about a fig tree. Clear as mud!


To some, yes it’s clear as mud. 

“At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.”

“But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.”



bullethead said:


> The bible contains too many specific stories to not be specific per story.
> 1500 years worth of vague metaphors is a long time to say Israel was born, died, and will some day rise again.
> 
> Your explanation is about how you reconcile the conglomeration of detailed stories that do not make sense individually as an excuse to somehow tie them all together as a whole. You have to suspend what is literally and specifically said in those pages in favor of manipulating them to pretend one specific thing that is described and named 1000 years prior and another specific thing that is specifically described 1000 years later which by every other means of identification methods are in fact two totally different things are now exactly the same. Facts are facts when convenient and they are metaphors when needed in a blend of they mean what they mean as written unless it sounds so stupid there is no excuse so now they do not mean what mean as written they obviously mean something else. Too many blurred lines to which even like minded belivers disagree on.
> ...



It’s not how I reconcile and for tons of Christianity there is nothing unclear about Jesus or the fig tree story. Sure you’re going to have some “disagreement” within everything that’s called Christianity but the story also says everyone saying Lord Lord will not enter in, they’ll claim they did works in His name - He never knew them.

Who’s right / wrong? The answer is does it line up with the Word of God, not one scripture, but the entire Word of God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> To some, yes it’s clear as mud.
> 
> “At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”
> 
> ...





> Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”


Ive always found that ^ interesting.


> WISE
> 1.* Properly, having knowledge;* hence, having the power of discerning and judging correctly, or of discriminating between what is true and what is false; between what is fit and proper, and what is improper; as a wise prince; a wise magistrate.





> pru·dent
> [ˈpro͞odnt]
> ADJECTIVE
> acting with or showing care and thought for the future:


Who is more likely to just unquestionably accept what you are telling them?
The wise and prudent? Or the babes?
Pretty convenient.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> To some, yes it’s clear as mud.
> 
> “At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”
> 
> ...


Some believers say that Jesus/Fig Tree is a Metaphor. Some say it is a Parable. Some say it is a Miracle. All three are completely different.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Ive always found that ^ interesting.
> 
> 
> Who is more likely to just unquestionably accept what you are telling them?
> ...


Good example - No one ever unquestionably accepts anything. Christianity isn’t just reading something and says hey I like it, I believe it so it’s gotta be true and that’s it.

The babe here isn’t the 1 year old, and the wise and prudent aren’t the “educated”. It just means it’s not as complicated to comprehend as some make it sound. This thread was a non believer wondering what he’s missing and debating a believer on what it might mean.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> To some, yes it’s clear as mud.
> 
> “At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of Heaven and earth, because Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”
> 
> ...


Wouldn't the Disciples have immediately understood that the Fig Tree represented Israel if they knew their OT?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Were the miracles of Jesus also parables?
Is the claim that Jesus is God a metaphor?
Is he a symbolic figure?

Within the same story lines Jesus had the god like power to kill a tree but was un-godlike when he was surprised and mad to learn that the tree had no fruit.

Looking at the Bible as a whole may seem like stories that go together in order to tell a greater tale but to me it seems like a collection of stories written over 1500yrs by various authors who all put their flare on the earliest Torah stories as ways to keep them fresh. They wrote in new ways to remind people of the old ways. They used new metaphors and symbols to represent old traditions. 
They embellished with metaphorical miracles to enhance old tales. 
Lots of water parting, fig trees, body and blood, raising people from the dead, ascending into heaven etc told over and over and over. The NT was a way to tell those old tales in a new light in order to gain followers.


----------



## RegularJoe (Apr 20, 2022)

For me, the fig tree episode, along with numerous other reported events within the Bible, are not clearly understandable.  
While I wish all of the Bible was 100% understandable, such reported events, as reported, offers_ some_ evidence to me that the Bible is not just some documentation by men, 
or a group of men, to make it all _seem_ believable.
I see it offered as a '_here is what happened, take it or leave it_,' 
not 'a here is what happened and here is how come
I really oughta believe it.'


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Some believers say that Jesus/Fig Tree is a Metaphor. Some say it is a Parable. Some say it is a Miracle. All three are completely different.


It can be one or all three and it does not change the intent.

Metaphor - a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable

Parable - a simple story used to illustrate a moral or spiritual lesson

Miracle - speaks for itself. 

One thing that most readers overlook is the fig tree being  “in leaf”, an early bloomer and in leaf it should have early figs. Fig trees will leaf late spring and bear fruit as early as May and can produce more than once per year but being in leaf says that tree was in season to at least show fruit producing or still have signs where fruit had produced. There is more than one lesson here about Israel - it is also to the Christian not bearing fruit, it is also about faith that God can get you re-established to a bearing state again.



bullethead said:


> Wouldn't the Disciples have immediately understood that the Fig Tree represented Israel if they knew their OT?



I believe they would have understood that He was using the fig tree as a symbol for Israel`s destruction and rebirth if they had known upfront.............Jesus was teaching / did teach the Disciples about faith also. They saw a withered up fig tree and for them that was the death of the tree. Jesus saw the rebirth and what it could become.


----------



## 660griz (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Good example - No one ever unquestionably accepts anything.



Yea they do or religion and cults wouldn't exist. Many definitions of faith mention this. 1) firm belief in something for which there is no proof 
2) without question


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 20, 2022)

"Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.”

In my brain this means it all depends on the filter/lens through which a person might view the information. You will find whatever you are searching for in the Bible because it was written by so many humans (who were influenced by countless other humans from differing cultures) over a very long time span. All three Abrahamic religions and their associated holy books share this in common to some degree. 

Personally now that I have more free time, I have been indulging my interest in how religion, mythology, history, science, and best of all human psychology, are all tied together in a fascinating blend.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 20, 2022)

660griz said:


> Yea they do or religion and cults wouldn't exist. Many definitions of faith mention this. 1) firm belief in something for which there is no proof
> 2) without question



I would add to your second point if I may: there _may _be questions, but they are often suppressed whether consciously or unconsciously. 

Some people call all religions a "cult" but here is how I view this: a straight up riding the crazy train "cult" has TOTAL CONTROL of their members. The members are immersed in the teachings & lifestyle of the cult, and almost all interactions with general society are kept to a minimum. The indoctrination process is sped up exponentially. The members are under total control 24/7. 

In an established religion such as most denominations of mainstream Christianity, the members might attend church or Bible study (or even a church run school for a kid's education) once or several times a week, but they still have their own actual families, homes, and various occupations. In other words, they have a life outside the church where they interact with mainstream society. 

Coming from a military background I equate a cult with lingering in an ambush zone.
Your odds of getting ambushed increase with the length of time you spend in it.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Israel said:


> In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
> 
> “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.  “Truly[d] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.  Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”


Sounds Specific


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

660griz said:


> Yea they do or religion and cults wouldn't exist. Many definitions of faith mention this. 1) firm belief in something for which there is no proof
> 2) without question


There’s only one biblical definition of faith.

Cults do exist but it’s not because they “unquestionably accepted” it. They found something in it they thought was right.


Religion isn’t unquestionably accepted either. That’s not why it exist.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Sounds Specific



A fig tree? Well it could be a miracle, no way to disprove it.
A mountain throwing itself into the sea? 
Technically plate tectonics (or other geographic processes) pretty much make this a sure bet, but we might have to hang around for a few million years to find out.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

> In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”
> 
> “Have faith in God,” Jesus answered.  “Truly[d] I tell you, if anyone says to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and does not doubt in their heart but believes that what they say will happen, it will be done for them.  Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins.”


This as written is not Jesus telling a parable using metaphors. 
This is an anonymous author using Jesus and Peter as parables using metaphors within. And really it is clearly two guys talking about a specific fig tree.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> A fig tree? Well it could be a miracle, no way to disprove it.
> A mountain throwing itself into the sea?
> Technically plate tectonics (or other geographic processes) pretty much make this a sure bet, but we might have to hang around for a few million years to find out.


Ahhh see. You’re looking at the mountain and looking for a big hill instead of life’s obstacles.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ahhh see. You’re looking at the mountain and looking for a big hill instead of life’s obstacles.


As opposed to reading a story about metaphors & parables and seeing a God?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> As opposed to reading a story about metaphors & parables and seeing a God?


But I’m not the one asking what it means and trying to figure out what I’m missing - or it must mean”this” because of “that”.


Edited to add: it’s ok to not believe the story. I just don’t follow the reasoning behind the need to tell those that claim to have a spiritual connection to the Author of the story that the spiritual meaning they get from it’s writings aren’t what they are. It’d be different if the non believe knew for sure that the Author didn’t exist but that’s not the case.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> But I’m not the one asking what it means and trying to figure out what I’m missing - or it must mean”this” because of “that”.
> 
> 
> Edited to add: it’s ok to not believe the story. I just don’t follow the reasoning behind the need to tell those that claim to have a spiritual connection to the Author of the story that the spiritual meaning they get from it’s writings aren’t what they are. It’d be different if the non believe knew for sure that the Author didn’t exist but that’s not the case.


Many times , at least for myself, I question how a person got to a particular understanding.  I like to hear the dots and how they connected them giving alternative possibilities along the way to further thought and conversation.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Many times , at least for myself, I question how a person got to a particular understanding.  I like to hear the dots and how they connected them giving alternative possibilities along the way to further thought and conversation.


Oh yea I don’t mean anything negative, it does fascinate me that a believer and a non believer can read the same biblical story and be at both ends of the spectrum on what it means.


----------



## 1gr8buildit (Apr 20, 2022)

I have not seen one mountain moved in my lifetime. Surely just one person has had enough faith? So, until you have, please don't even go there. Truth is, Matthew, Luke and Acts are extremely embellished. There are parables seemingly the same, yet told differently, meaning one of the author's  had it wrong. Whether they were making this stuff up or honestly trying to document what they had learned from oral traditions, I don't know? I say, good thing they documented it at that point, otherwise it could have gotten embellished even worse. Notice, Paul never writes about the things that Matthew and Luke does. Matthew and Luke, were plagerizing most of the time off Mark. The "editorial" fatigue is evident. However, it does not mean that the underlying context is not true. Hero's always get embellished. I suspect that there may have been a story handed down regarding Jesus referring to the fig tree. It likely started off simple. And ended up with what we have now.


----------



## 1gr8buildit (Apr 20, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "There are many opinion as to whether or not the people of those times saw so many miraculous things that they were unfazed, or that maybe some real events that were really less spectacular were later embellished to add to the legend, or it was all made up decades later." - Bullet head
> 
> As to your first point: I posit that if miracles (or weird unexplainable supernatural things) occurred on a regular basis back in the day, then it would take LESS FAITH to believe in god than it would in 2022 when miracles/supernatural things do not happen on a regular basis, and certainly not in front of many people.
> 
> Let's consider the Garden of Eden: God literally talking with, and walked with Adam and Eve. It wouldn't take much convincing to believe that god is real. Or flash forward to Jesus feeding the multitudes with a small amount of fish & bread. Anyone seeing this would certainly be convinced of his reality.


Reminds me of Noah. It's all in the presentation. If God had told me to build an ark in a dream, LOL, I would have drowned. If he told me in person, I would have said "steel or wood?"


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 20, 2022)

Sure enough, as I read more of the fig tree story it raises even more questions!
Sorry, but if something pops out at me I can't ignore it. Anyway let's pick this up right after Jesus cleared out the temple of the moneychangers and salesmen, which of course lands him in hot water:

18 The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching.

19 When evening came, Jesus and his disciples[c] went out of the city.

20 In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21 Peter remembered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!”

Excuse me? Jesus is going to the temple and curses the fig tree. After Jesus gets in trouble for what he did there, him & his disciples hit the road, With me so far?
If they pass the now withered fig tree, then they are heading right back home to where they came from along the same road. *That's the first place John Law is going to look! *Criminals often head for home where they know the streets, hiding places, and likely have family & friends helping them lay low.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 20, 2022)




----------



## bullethead (Apr 20, 2022)

1gr8buildit knows his religions history. Period


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> So it seems to be about a fig tree but it's not really about a fig tree. Clear as mud!


It’s 2022 and there are still folks that would be bum fuzzled if an Indian told them he’s going to cross the moving water and head to where the tree meets the sky.

They can’t comprehend that the water isn’t moving around place to place, it’s flowing and the tree might be on a mountain top that the Indian has always just looked up there and saw.

I’m sure the Smokey mountains throws them for a flip, too.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite,  is it possible that it was really about a fig tree?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Spotlite,  is it possible that it was really about a fig tree?


There’s tons of lessons from it. Cursing a fig tree just to curse it has no significant value or meaning.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> There’s tons of lessons from it. Cursing a fig tree just to curse it has no significant value or meaning.


Well, cursing a fig tree because it was not bearing fruit absolutely has a meaning with value.

It is one thing if a story was told about Jesus and the fig tree and he was all alone. I can see it being a symbol/metaphor then.
But the story in the bible included others and specific conversation about the fig tree. So much so that the story stuck in the memory of his Disciples. Is the whole story about flipping tables, cleansing the Temple and traveling all symbolic metaphors?
And... two of the Gospels tout is as a Miracle. Is it a symbolic miracle? Did it or didn't it happen? Wouldn't it have to happen in order to be a miracle?

Symbol? Miracle? Metaphor? Parable?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> There’s tons of lessons from it. Cursing a fig tree just to curse it has no significant value or meaning.



not to nitpick, but there are lots of things in the bible that seem to have no significant value or meaning, but are interpretated in different ways so as to sound significant.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Well, cursing a fig tree because it was not bearing fruit absolutely has a meaning with value.
> 
> It is one thing if a story was told about Jesus and the fig tree and he was all alone. I can see it being a symbol/metaphor then.
> But the story in the bible included others and specific conversation about the fig tree. So much so that the story stuck in the memory of his Disciples. Is the whole story about flipping tables, cleansing the Temple and traveling all symbolic metaphors?
> ...



Because it did not have fruit gives it meaning. But there were most likely other trees in the area that may or may not have been fig trees that did not have fruit. So it is not about the tree itself, The tree was just a tool used to teach and warn. 



> Symbol? Miracle? Metaphor? Parable?



Miracle - withering how fast? 
Symbolic - Israel became spiritually empty as with some Christians today.
Metaphor - It is absolutely larger than the fig tree. It is judgment.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Because it did not have fruit gives it meaning. But there were most likely other trees in the area that may or may not have been fig trees that did not have fruit. So it is not about the tree itself, The tree was just a tool used to teach and warn.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So Jesus really killed a fig tree to use as an example rather than just sit with his Disciples and explain letting them believe their Master's word?

Sounds like a lot of story and not much reality.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> not to nitpick, but there are lots of things in the bible that seem to have no significant value or meaning, but are interpretated in different ways so as to sound significant.


I don`t take it as nit picking, I am not like that and I don`t take things here personal so don`t take this as nit picking -  If you are a claiming to be a non believer without His spirit why would you expect to find meaning? I am sure you have read the Bible?? Even if you are going to dispute its` writings you at least have to know what is in it so I am sure you have read this:

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I don`t take it as nit picking, I am not like that and I don`t take things here personal so don`t take this as nit picking -  If you are a claiming to be a non believer without His spirit why would you expect to find meaning? I am sure you have read the Bible?? Even if you are going to dispute its` writings you at least have to know what is in it so I am sure you have read this:
> 
> "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.  For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"


It seems as though the authors are saying God hath revealed those things to them and it seems as though people who come after the originals include themselves into the group.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> So Jesus really killed a fig tree to use as an example rather than just sit with his Disciples and explain letting them believe their Master's word?
> 
> Sounds like a lot of story and not much reality.


Ahh faithless like the Disciples???? Ya`ll see a dead tree and nothing more. Back up and look at the entire picture - the miracle is even bigger than killing it right then. God promised to restore Israel - the budding of the fig tree, Israel became a nation in 1948.

As mentioned previously, Israel was God`s vineyard. And a lot of that ties into end time prophecy even from the Old Testament. I am not an end time harper and sign seeker so I don`t post much about all that. It will happen when it will happen and I leave it right there for others to fight over.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> It’s 2022 and there are still folks that would be bum fuzzled if an Indian told them he’s going to cross the moving water and head to where the tree meets the sky.
> 
> They can’t comprehend that the water isn’t moving around place to place, it’s flowing and the tree might be on a mountain top that the Indian has always just looked up there and saw.
> 
> I’m sure the Smokey mountains throws them for a flip, too.



Kind of an "apples & oranges" comparison IMHO. The Indian isn't espousing any information from a position of heavenly authority that would affect the spiritual and moral behavior of billions of people. My point is anything as important (yet involving a simple binary choice) as eternity in either heaven or hot-place should be very clear information not involving mystery, metaphor, allegory, etc etc. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> It seems as though the authors are saying God hath revealed those things to them and it seems as though people who come after the originals include themselves into the group.


There is no scripture saying we are to be excluded and that it only pertained to the "originals". One spirit, through the Spirit they are His people.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ahh faithless like the Disciples???? Ya`ll see a dead tree and nothing more. Back up and look at the entire picture - the miracle is even bigger than killing it right then. God promised to restore Israel - the budding of the fig tree, Israel became a nation in 1948.
> 
> As mentioned previously, Israel was God`s vineyard. And a lot of that ties into end time prophecy even from the Old Testament. I am not an end time harper and sign seeker so I don`t post much about all that. It will happen when it will happen and I leave it right there for others to fight over.


I see new authors making up stories to try to go along with Torah tales.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Kind of an "apples & oranges" comparison IMHO. The Indian isn't espousing any information from a position of heavenly authority that would affect the spiritual and moral behavior of billions of people. My point is anything as important (yet involving a simple binary choice) as eternity in either heaven or hot-place should be very clear information not involving mystery, metaphor, allegory, etc etc. Just my 2 cents.



Who is saying it is unclear?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> There is no scripture saying we are to be excluded and that it only pertained to the "originals". One spirit, through the Spirit they are His people.


Until the NT you were absolutely excluded.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I see new authors making up stories to try to go along with Torah tales.


And you also claimed to be a non believer?


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> And you also claimed to be a non believer?


I can study religious history and follow the progression of stories as they change to suit the tellers over hundreds of years. I don't have to believe in them to understand them when the history is used in conjunction.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Until the NT you were absolutely excluded.


The NT is where I quoted - "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God" 

I am not excluded from what those Authors wrote. It is not just Torah tales, it was prophecy. You can take Matthew, Mark, Luke and John out of the Bible and it still won`t change the prophecy.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Parts of the NT is the equivalent of you writing a story to coincide a man today with Washington crossing the Delaware 250 years ago. 
A Forest Gump addition into history.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I can study religious history and follow the progression of stories as they change to suit the tellers over hundreds of years. I don't have to believe in them to understand them when the history is used in conjunction.


I have no doubt but you will not get the spiritual context of the story and that is my only point with it. Many writers and historians without the Spirit as well. Just saying.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> The NT is where I quoted - "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"
> 
> I am not excluded from what those Authors wrote. It is not just Torah tales, it was prophecy. You can take Matthew, Mark, Luke and John out of the Bible and it still won`t change the prophecy.


Who is Immanuel? Who in the NT is named Immanuel?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Ahh faithless like the Disciples???? Ya`ll see a dead tree and nothing more. Back up and look at the entire picture - the miracle is even bigger than killing it right then. God promised to restore Israel - the budding of the fig tree, Israel became a nation in 1948.
> 
> As mentioned previously, Israel was God`s vineyard. And a lot of that ties into end time prophecy even from the Old Testament. I am not an end time harper and sign seeker so I don`t post much about all that. It will happen when it will happen and I leave it right there for others to fight over.



Let me get this straight: Jesus (being all knowing/all seeing/etc) knows there is a "bigger picture" and that Israel will become a nation in about twenty centuries or so. 
But the disciples of course wouldn't be able to connect the dots on this. 

Sidenote many Christians are focused on end times prophecy concerning Israel but very few Jews (the founders of Judaism and thus the Old Testament prophecies that tie in with the New Testament Christianity) are concerned with End Times prophecy. 
That is very interesting to me!


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I have no doubt but you will not get the spiritual context of the story and that is my only point with it. Many writers and historians without the Spirit as well. Just saying.


And I am just saying that people who dress up like Luke Skywalker at Cosplay events are positive that they have The Force also.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Let me get this straight: Jesus (being all knowing/all seeing/etc) knows there is a "bigger picture" and that Israel will become a nation in about twenty centuries or so.
> But the disciples of course wouldn't be able to connect the dots on this.
> 
> Sidenote many Christians are focused on end times prophecy concerning Israel but very few Jews (the founders of Judaism and thus the Old Testament prophecies that tie in with the New Testament Christianity) are concerned with End Times prophecy.
> That is very interesting to me!


That whole part about teaching them faith went right over didn`t it lol

BTW, I taught my son to catch a ball but I had to let it hit him a few times before he got it.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> And I am just saying that people who dress up like Luke Skywalker at Cosplay events are positive that they have The Force also.


I am sure there are many that are convinced they got "it".


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That whole part about teaching them faith went right over didn`t it lol
> 
> BTW, I taught my son to catch a ball but I had to let it hit him a few times before he got it.


I would almost bet that you tossed your Son soft items since an early age and worked up to a Glove and Ball.
I have my doubts that you took him on a walk in December, found an apple tree and cut it down because it didn't have apples and let a branch hit him on the head expecting him to equate that the branch represents a ball that will be painful if he misses it.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Who is Immanuel? Who in the NT is named Immanuel?



I think Immanual is another name for Jesus. I think it means "he who is among us" or something like that.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Who is Immanuel? Who in the NT is named Immanuel?


I am familiar with that argument. Immanuel - God is with us. The flesh part is Jesus. There is no real argument there, they are one. He has many times if you search scripture.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think Immanual is another name for Jesus. I think it means "he who is among us" or something like that.


Sure....which can be interpreted to anyone with any name who is touted as being among us.
Scripture specifies a name not a meaning.
Otherwise I am "Gift of God" and should be acknowledged and treated as such.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I am familiar with that argument. Immanuel - God is with us. The flesh part is Jesus. There is no real argument there, they are one. He has many times if you search scripture.


Every name has a base meaning. Many fit the bill. Many do not.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Who is saying it is unclear?



If Jesus is the only one who knew that eventually Israel would become it's own nation in 1948 and thus a prophecy would be fulfilled then it was certainly unclear to the disciples.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> I would almost bet that you tossed your Son soft items since an early age and worked up to a Glove and Ball.
> I have my doubts that you took him on a walk in December, found an apple tree and cut it down because it didn't have apples and let a branch hit him on the head expecting him to equate that the branch represents a ball that will be painful if he misses it.


Oh but we have cut down two apple trees in full leaf that had no apples. Full leaf, they should have had some sign of fruit or at least old fruit.

I am sure the Disciples did not get hurt with the faith lesson. We have a group in society we call the snow flakes that we frown upon because they want the easy lessons.....................lets don`t get soft now since we are talking Bible.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Every name has a base meaning. Many fit the bill. Many do not.


I will hang my hat on you claiming to be a non believer and will say I understand your position.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Oh but we have cut down two apple trees in full leaf that had no apples. Full leaf, they should have had some sign of fruit or at least old fruit.
> 
> I am sure the Disciples did not get hurt with the faith lesson. We have a group in society we call the snow flakes that we frown upon because they want the easy lessons.....................lets don`t get soft now since we are talking Bible.


You cut those trees down because they were useless. You didn't cut them down and expect the kids to know how to balance a checkbook afterwards or that a new nation will form in a thousand years.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> If Jesus is the only one who knew that eventually Israel would become it's own nation in 1948 and thus a prophecy would be fulfilled then it was certainly unclear to the disciples.


He was teaching them, based on that I would suspect they did not need teaching if they had known.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> You cut those trees down because they were useless. You didn't cut them down and expect the kids to know how to balance a checkbook afterwards.


See, I told you it was never just about the fig tree


----------



## bullethead (Apr 26, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> See, I told you it was never just about the fig tree


Why did you cut those trees down?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Until the NT you were absolutely excluded.



no doubt! Judaism is the story/religion of God's chosen people developed by Jews for Jews. Sidenote, advances in archeology, geology, history and other sciences are knocking plot holes of biblical proportions in the Old Testament/Torah stories concerning the Exodus, The Flood, The Tower of Babel, The Walls of Jerico, etc. etc. Also it looks more & more that "Moses" was just a composite character combining the attributes & achievements of several different characters!

So now a lot of modern Jews are taking the approach of "okay, so what if the stories are embellished, it's the spirit behind the stories that are important!" The stories are inspiring, thought provoking, hope providing, etc. and are part of their culture & tradition, so it's too late in the game now to just discount their whole religion.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 26, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Why did you cut those trees down?


So I could teach my son that he can take something that looks worthless and useless and turn it into something else of value. The apple trees smoked a ton of hams.


----------



## bullethead (Apr 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> So I could teach my son that he can take something that looks worthless and useless and turn it into something else of value. The apple trees smoked a ton of hams.


Better to repurpose them rather than kill them out of anger and spite just to watch them wither.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Better to repurpose them rather than kill them out of anger and spite just to watch them wither.





> kill them out of anger and spite just to watch them wither.


That is not what happened but remember the following statements?



> If you are a claiming to be a non believer without His spirit why would you expect to find meaning?





> "But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God"




One non believer even said this:


> My point is anything as important (yet involving a simple binary choice) as eternity in either heaven or hot-place should be very clear information not involving mystery, metaphor, allegory, etc. Just my 2 cents.



I ask again?


> Who is saying it is unclear?


I do not find the unclear, troublesome, hard to figure out head scratcher that makes me wonder what I am missing. The fig tree story makes perfect sense.

I will say it again, simply not believing it is one thing but I will never get why folks want to try to change the meaning of it in their attempt to use it as proof that the story is made up. We already know that the non believer feels that the Bible story is made up, we can respect that stance but it does not need to be substantiated. Simply saying that a story is unclear is proof really is no more proof that the Bible is fiction than me saying it is true. Providing hard evidence that the story is a copy cat story holds more water, not resembling, but copied. There has not been any documentation to support that. There have been tons of "sounds like`s". Actually, the story itself says why it is unclear to the unbelievers.

Regardless if it is fact or fiction, it has a specific meaning to a specific group of folks that believe it to be true, that meaning does not change and the majority of Christianity will get and understand the faith message in it. There will be many that will actually read their Bible and they will get more out of it. There will be many that will actually study what they read and get even more. None of them are wrong unless one of them says "this is all that it means".

You see different answers as inconsistencies but it is not, that is different levels of learning. A kid in 4th grade figuring out 4455 plus 5544 minus 20 divided by 2 thinks that is the ultimate to math.

The Christian was instructed to study. Their lack of study will reveal itself if they never get off the milk and on to the strong meat.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Oh but we have cut down two apple trees in full leaf that had no apples. Full leaf, they should have had some sign of fruit or at least old fruit.
> 
> I am sure the Disciples did not get hurt with the faith lesson. We have a group in society we call the snow flakes that we frown upon because they want the easy lessons.....................lets don`t get soft now since we are talking Bible.



Hmmm......with all that is at stake here, namely eternity in the hot place  I would think that the bible would be as crystal clear as possible both for the people alive during the time of Jesus, and for the modern world. Just sayin'


----------



## bullethead (Apr 27, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That is not what happened but remember the following statements?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Life has lots of meanings and lessons.
Fox jumping at grapes and such...
All this is good life stuff but when a god is touted as being involved the level of accuracy goes up exponentially.
When a believer then says well it may be fact or fiction then even they don't believe it as fact.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 27, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Hmmm......with all that is at stake here, namely eternity in the hot place  I would think that the bible would be as crystal clear as possible both for the people alive during the time of Jesus, and for the modern world. Just sayin'


What’s confusing / unclear about eternity in the fig tree story? 

The Bible is clear on salvation.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 27, 2022)

bullethead said:


> Life has lots of meanings and lessons.
> Fox jumping at grapes and such...
> All this is good life stuff but when a is touted as being involved the level of accuracy goes up exponentially.
> When a believer then says well it may be fact or fiction then even they don't believe it as fact.


I said basically regardless if it’s fact or fiction the story still has an intent / meaning as written that doesn’t change unless you change the story. For the record I’m saying the story is fact.

But I’ll discuss it open minded enough to understand the unbelievers point of view regardless if I agree or not. I can put the shoe on the other foot for the sake of conversation. I place myself in your shoes when I discuss Allah.


----------



## 1gr8buildit (Apr 27, 2022)

In the OT, the Jews on their journey of faith, often said "is God with us or not" They questioned this.... or said it in a complaining context, I'm not sure which. Each viewpoint is a deep subject to ponder, and apply. Yet the prostitute rehab recognized that God was with them? Sad. In this context, it was not  in the flesh but rather through Mose's guidance. However, not the point. So when the word Imanuel   was later used, was it literal, God was with them in the flesh... or was God with them because he had made a means of reconciliation, or other? We should only have to look at the story that the use of the word was directed at. It should have been well known to the ears of that day. An underdog King was obviously about to be crushed. War capability was looked at in terms of manpower, not firepower in that day. But God showed "he was with them" by defeating these adversary's in the amount of time from conception to weaning, I'll say 2 years. It would have taken many generations to grow his man power. In no way could this king have ever thought that he accomplished this defeat. It would be known, that "God was with him". Literal in the flesh or was it simply saying that God was watching out for him?    The NT is fully built upon the OT. Modern day religion wants to change the past to fit whichever viewpoint they have.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That is not what happened but remember the following statements?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Regardless if it is fact or fiction,


I have no problem whatsoever believing the Bible is a fictional book full of valuable (to some not so much others) lessons.


> it has a specific meaning to a specific group of folks that believe it to be true,


Unfortunately, Christianitys (most all religions) history shows they couldnt leave it at just believing it. Politics, law making, how to view and treat other people of differing beliefs. wars etc etc.....


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 28, 2022)

This has got to be the longest fig tree thread in internet history.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> This has got to be the longest fig tree thread in internet history.



The longest literally or metaphorically?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I have no problem whatsoever believing the Bible is a fictional book full of valuable (to some not so much others) lessons.
> 
> Unfortunately, Christianitys (most all religions) history shows they couldnt leave it at just believing it. Politics, law making, how to view and treat other people of differing beliefs. wars etc etc.....


Well, our Founding Fathers thought it was important to bring here and Bible was even part of school. Christianity had a strong influence on who we used to be.

Most Christians don’t have a problem with those choosing to not believe. It’s when the non believers want to shut it down. I’m sure the blue laws affected many but those started with the Pilgrims. There’s really nothing out there today being forced on the non believer.

Here, everyone seems pretty level headed in their differences, I do wished that carried over more because many take it very personal and offensive to hear “God isn’t real” and “God is real”.


----------



## brutally honest (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The longest literally or metaphorically?



Parenthetically


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> This has got to be the longest fig tree thread in internet history.


Figs are really good.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> The longest literally or metaphorically?


Both ?


----------



## OwlRNothing (Apr 28, 2022)

This whole thread is why no Christian should ever discuss their faith on a public forum, imho.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

"Most Christians don’t have a problem with those choosing to not believe. It’s when the non believers want to shut it down. I’m sure the blue laws affected many but those started with the Pilgrims. There’s really nothing out there today being forced on the non believer.

Here, everyone seems pretty level headed in their differences, I do wished that carried over more because many take it very personal and offensive to hear “God isn’t real” and “God is real”." - Spotlight

I can totally understand why any believer (of any religion) would be upset when they hear "god isn't real". When you insult their religion you insult their traditions, history, intelligence, morality, judgement, etc. And if a believer comes from a long line of believers you insult their parents, grandparents, and everyone else who raised them to be believers.

That said I am a FIRM SUPPORTER of "separation of church & state" and would never, ever want to live in a theocracy under any circumstances!  Like they say "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and I believe that to be true. For those that think the U.S.A. would be better served if we were under control of old-school/hard-charging Bible-thumping Christians I can only point to all the shady, cheating, thieving pastors that are always getting caught with their pants down & their hands in the cookie jars.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> This whole thread is why no Christian should ever discuss their faith on a public forum, imho.



I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE! If your faith is strong and your religion has merit you should encourage non-believers to try to pick holes in it! Surely a believer shouldn't be afraid that non-believers' opposing viewpoints might make them question their faith or change their minds. Outstanding claims demand outstanding evidence IMHO. By this I mean it's natural for non-believers to be skeptical when the bible is chock-full of things that are false, inaccurate, contradictory, embellished WHEN EVALUATED BY MODERN STANDARDS OF MATH, SCIENCE, BIOLOGY, PSYCHOLOGY, GEOLOGY, PHYSICS, etc. 

"Suspension of disbelief" has its limits. It only makes sense that as the average person becomes more & more aware of how the universe (and especially our species) works, selling them on religion is going to get harder & harder. 

Christianity only has one well to draw from, that being the Bible. Granted the Bible is the word of God so it should be adequate as a reference & authority, which it is but only for believers or potential believers, but the Bible is finite and limited. It can be and always will be interpreted six ways from Sunday of course. 

But the canon of science and scientific techniques is growing & evolving, so it only makes sense that as it grows more & more evidence comes to light that disproves the bible. But religion is all about faith, not facts so IMHO to become (or remain) a believer the "suspension of disbelief" will have to be cranked up to eleven as science and education advances throughout the world. 

What can a committed believer do about this? Double down on studying the bible, praying, supporting your local church, etc. "Fight the good fight" I guess but not discussing your faith doesn't help strengthen your faith IMHO.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "Most Christians don’t have a problem with those choosing to not believe. It’s when the non believers want to shut it down. I’m sure the blue laws affected many but those started with the Pilgrims. There’s really nothing out there today being forced on the non believer.
> 
> Here, everyone seems pretty level headed in their differences, I do wished that carried over more because many take it very personal and offensive to hear “God isn’t real” and “God is real”." - Spotlight
> 
> ...


One - it’s not an insult when say you don’t believe, it is an insult when the non believer states that the Christian lacks critical thinking.

Two - no one ever said we’d be better off under control of Bible thumper’s, I said Bible thumper’s got us here in the land of the free and because of that you’re allowed separation from it - no one is forcing religion on anyone, that’s a ridiculous, ignorant and thoughtless thought.

You’re wanting separation from it should never entail you’re wanting it to go away. Escaping religious persecution at the same of allowing you the freedom to not be Christian is still a core value to the American Christian.

Pointing to shady thieving pastors claiming to be something they’re not only fooled those looking for an excuse to boost their confidence in their decision to be a non believer instead of just manning up and saying they don’t believe it. Did you quit hunting because of poachers?


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Figs are really good.


Love them! My grandfather had a couple trees and made preserves. Deeeelicious.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> This whole thread is why no Christian should ever discuss their faith on a public forum, imho.


I have a different opinion.
People who are strong in their faith can handle any question that is thrown at them and can offer a view that only a believer has.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I RESPECTFULLY DISAGREE! If your faith is strong and your religion has merit you should encourage non-believers to try to pick holes in it! Surely a believer shouldn't be afraid that non-believers' opposing viewpoints might make them question their faith or change their minds. Outstanding claims demand outstanding evidence IMHO. By this I mean it's natural for non-believers to be skeptical when the bible is chock-full of things that are false, inaccurate, contradictory, embellished WHEN EVALUATED BY MODERN STANDARDS OF MATH, SCIENCE, BIOLOGY, PSYCHOLOGY, GEOLOGY, PHYSICS, etc.
> 
> "Suspension of disbelief" has its limits. It only makes sense that as the average person becomes more & more aware of how the universe (and especially our species) works, selling them on religion is going to get harder & harder.
> 
> ...





> Surely a believer shouldn't be afraid that non-believers' opposing viewpoints might make them question their faith or change their minds.


Yep. If anything we say can cause a believer to change their minds, their faith was on pretty shaky ground to begin with.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> One - it’s not an insult when say you don’t believe, it is an insult when the non believer states that the Christian lacks critical thinking.
> 
> Two - no one ever said we’d be better off under control of Bible thumper’s, I said Bible thumper’s got us here in the land of the free and because of that you’re allowed separation from it - no one is forcing religion on anyone, that’s a ridiculous, ignorant and thoughtless thought.
> 
> ...





> You’re wanting separation from it should never entail you’re wanting it to go away.


I can agree with that 100%


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

"One - it’s not an insult when say you don’t believe, it is an insult when the non believer states that the Christian lacks critical thinking."

What I meant was since the bible was written the average person is more educated and their critical thinking skills are also more developed. This applies to believers & non-believers. 

And I'm not implying you or anyone on this board seriously desires a Christian theocracy, I was just mentioning it as what I consider a threat to democracy. That said most of the people who do desire a theocracy tend to "cherry pick" the Bible to advance their narrative.

And I for one do not want religion to "go away" because I believe in freedom of religion. Religion has a purpose in societal cohesion and has been with humans (and maybe proto-humans) since our beginnings. That said religions do evolve and go extinct eventually. Christianity is not the first religion, and it won't be the last. Before it goes extinct it will likely be much different than how it is in the year 2022, just as it was different in the year 1022 and the year 102.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> "One - it’s not an insult when say you don’t believe, it is an insult when the non believer states that the Christian lacks critical thinking."
> 
> What I meant was since the bible was written the average person is more educated and their critical thinking skills are also more developed. This applies to believers & non-believers.
> 
> ...


You know we’re good! Always remember, I don’t take this personal - I enjoy the honesty in discussion regardless if we agree or not.

I’m one that thinks religion needs to stay out of politics because I believe you shouldn’t be unequally yoked and politics is just too corrupt now, more corrupt than organized religion. Plus we were called to teach and preach, not set laws and govern.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You know we’re good! Always remember, I don’t take this personal - I enjoy the honesty in discussion regardless if we agree or not.
> 
> I’m one that thinks religion needs to stay out of politics because I believe you shouldn’t be unequally yoked and politics is just too corrupt now, more corrupt than organized religion. Plus we were called to teach and preach, not set laws and govern.



I think there are some aspects of organized religion that are about as evil I can envision: that would be how the Catholic Church systematically covers up pedophilia.
 Do I think priests and other high ranking church members commit pedophilia at rates higher than any other demographic? No I do not. But when the church deliberately runs interference for the perverts and is allowed to have their own internal justice/legal system? Somebody tell me how this can happen! I'm sorry but IMHO if you are a member of the Catholic Church how can anybody tolerate this?


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> I think there are some aspects of organized religion that are about as evil I can envision: that would be how the Catholic Church systematically covers up pedophilia.
> Do I think priests and other high ranking church members commit pedophilia at rates higher than any other demographic? No I do not. But when the church deliberately runs interference for the perverts and is allowed to have their own internal justice/legal system? Somebody tell me how this can happen! I'm sorry but IMHO if you are a member of the Catholic Church how can anybody tolerate this?


For the ones that cover it up - just as guilty!


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> For the ones that cover it up - just as guilty!



that's what I'm saying. When they cover it up they condone it and perpetuate the evil practice. NOBODY should be above the law, I don't care how powerful you are. 
I just can't imagine how the Catholic leaders rationalize enabling pedophilia. What is their thought process? Do they think that it's worth sacrificing the innocence of children to avoid upsetting God by daring to question the behavior of those with a direct pipeline to God? Everyone involved needs to eat a bullet IMHO.


----------



## Spotlite (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> that's what I'm saying. When they cover it up they condone it and perpetuate the evil practice. NOBODY should be above the law, I don't care how powerful you are.
> I just can't imagine how the Catholic leaders rationalize enabling pedophilia. What is their thought process? Do they think that it's worth sacrificing the innocence of children to avoid upsetting God by daring to question the behavior of those with a direct pipeline to God? Everyone involved needs to eat a bullet IMHO.


Love of money is the root of all evil - leads to power and greed. Same way the politicians get away with their corruption.


----------



## oldfella1962 (Apr 28, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Love of money is the root of all evil - leads to power and greed. Same way the politicians get away with their corruption.



Sort of like politicians. Politicians may have access to the best lawyers, but they don't have almost total immunity from state & federal laws like the Catholic church does. They can't do their own "internal investigations" when it comes to pedophilia.

https://qz.com/1356796/how-the-catholic-church-concealed-priests-sexual-abuse-of-children/


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 28, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> that's what I'm saying. When they cover it up they condone it and perpetuate the evil practice. NOBODY should be above the law, I don't care how powerful you are.
> I just can't imagine how the Catholic leaders rationalize enabling pedophilia. What is their thought process? Do they think that it's worth sacrificing the innocence of children to avoid upsetting God by daring to question the behavior of those with a direct pipeline to God? Everyone involved needs to eat a bullet IMHO.


Do their best to hide it so the weekly collection baskets dont take a hit.


----------



## Banjo Picker (May 6, 2022)

oldfella1962 said:


> Okay, here's the story of hungry Jesus and the fig tree. Jesus curses the tree because it's not bearing figs DURING THE SEASON WHEN IT SHOULD NOT HAVE FIGS!
> I can see a lesson here for Christians about not bearing fruit. But when it's not the time of year that the tree should have figs, then why would Jesus be surprised?
> I just can't see how this makes any sense at any level. Try to visualize this situation from the point-of-view of a disciple. Wouldn't Jesus come off as unhinged?
> Any thoughts?
> ...



_THE PARABLE OF THE FIG TREE_ (Matt. 24:32, 33)

This parable is commonly interpreted as applying to the Jewish nation and its restoration but this could not be the truth illustrated by this parable. The restoration of Israel was not inquired of by the disciples, and therefore could not be the subject Jesus intended to illustrate by the fig tree parable.

This is just a simple illustration of the _nearness _of Christ's second advent, which is the subject of Matt. 24-25. "Now learn a parable [illustration] of the fig tree [Luke adds "and all the trees," 21:29]; when his branch is yet tender and putteth forth leaves ye know[what?] that summer is nigh: SO LIKEWISE ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS [the above signs of Christ's coming of Matt 24:4-26], know that it [the second advent, not the restoration of Israel] is near, even at the doors" Matt. 24:32, 33. What could be clearer? We do not have to use this parable for the basis of the doctrine of the restoration of Israel, for there are many plain passages that cover that doctrine satisfactorily. Then too that all of Matt. 24:4-26 is fulfilled in one generation is further evident from this parable of the fig tree, for no tree puts forth leaves throughout the season.
  In Matt. 24:34, 35 we have the infallibility of the above truths stated. Heaven and Earth shall change but these truths shall not be changed Lk. 16:16; Heb. 1:10-12. The Greek word for _pass away_ in this passage means pass from one state to another and not cessation of existence as proved in 2 Cor. 5:17 and other passages. The Heaven and the Earth will never be annihilated.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 7, 2022)

"This parable is commonly interpreted as applying to the Jewish nation and its restoration but this could not be the truth illustrated by this parable. The restoration of Israel was not inquired of by the disciples, and therefore could not be the subject Jesus intended to illustrate by the fig tree parable."

Thanks Banjo! So the parable is not about Israel, it's about something else Jesus is trying to teach or illustrate. 

"The Heaven and the Earth will never be annihilated."

We will have to agree to disagree about that. Eventually the sun will run out of fuel (thanks Biden!)   and turn into a red giant  and burn up Earth.


----------



## 1gr8buildit (May 7, 2022)

In both Mark and Matthew, the story is presented as a story of faith. Nothing more. anything else is reading into the text. Mark conflicts with Matthew in that he cursed it on his way and it was saw on his way back. Matthew has it cursed on his way back. But that's not my point. Luke tells a parable resembling this topic. The context in Mark and Matthew is you can do the same, curse a tree, if you have enough faith. I don't have the opinion that the text gives us enough to read in anything more.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 7, 2022)

I apparently have enough faith to curse greenbriers and blackberry plants while walking through the woods in the dark, and quite often the lord's name is invoked when this happens! Sadly, they never seem to whither, and often seem to grow more robustly!


----------

