# Scripture foresaw God justifying Gentiles



## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2018)

Galatians 3:8
Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

or 

What's more, the Scriptures looked forward to this time when God would declare the Gentiles to be righteous because of their faith. God proclaimed this good news to Abraham long ago when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you."

Thus showing a distinct prevision of a time? I'm still seeing and comparing Paul's revelation as it was presented "within time."

What did scripture "foresee?" Did scripture foresee something that was to happen in the future that had not happened yet?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2018)

It's like things are hidden from us by God but revealed to us or different groups of us in different parts of "time."

Paul writes in Ephesians 6:18-20 "_Praying always ... for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the *mystery of the gospel* for which I am an ambassador in bonds ...._"  Paul's gospel had been a mystery, not been known to anyone before God revealed it to him. 

Regardless of the Gentiles, in the Old Testament, who found God, there was still a mystery of the gospel that had been hidden. 

Hidden through the ages, revealed by Paul. Even foretold in scripture.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2018)

There is a lot of stuff in the Bible that was hidden within time that was later revealed. Some of it was actually in scripture but the people of that time could not see it because it hadn't been revealed yet.

Deuteronomy 29:29 
The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.

Yet once something has been revealed in time, it is ours to teach forward from that moment in time the revelation was given.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2018)

We can't say that Paul's revelation concerning the Gentiles was not so just because there were Old Testament Gentiles who came to God.

What that may mean was in how they came to God may have been different. If not then what was Paul's mystery/secret?

I read that each of those Old Testament accounts of a Gentile coming to God was through physical Israel. There was at least some type of Israel connection.

I'm not sure and don't know, just trying to learn. If scripture "foresaw" and Paul "revealed" then something had to be hidden.


----------



## strothershwacker (Dec 20, 2018)

Peter says Jews & gentiles saved the same way (after Cornelius experience)ACTS 15:11. Paul was preaching the same message as the other apostles. Galatians 1:23. Paul says jew & gentiles are equal in Christ. Galatians 3:28. Paul speaks of this mystery your questioning earlier in Ephesians chapter 3 verse 5 he says that it has now been revealed to His holy apostles (plural) & prophets. It goes on to call gentiles fellow heirs. This is what Jesus spoke of in John 10:16. ONE FOLD. The mystery is Whosoever. Joel 2:32 says IT SHALL COME TO PASS that whosoever.... then in early Acts chapter 2 verse 21 IT SHALL COME TO PASS that whosoever..... BUT!!! When ye get to Paul in Romans 10:13 he says "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." No longer does it say it shall come to pass! It came to pass when God sent Peter to the house of Cornelius in Acts 10. Paul was given this message by the ascended Lord to take it to the gentiles. He did Ephesians 3:8-9. Salvation by Grace through faith for the Jew & gentile alike!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2018)

strothershwacker said:


> Peter says Jews & gentiles saved the same way (after Cornelius experience)ACTS 15:11. Paul was preaching the same message as the other apostles. Galatians 1:23. Paul says jew & gentiles are equal in Christ. Galatians 3:28. Paul speaks of this mystery your questioning earlier in Ephesians chapter 3 verse 5 he says that it has now been revealed to His holy apostles (plural) & prophets. It goes on to call gentiles fellow heirs. This is what Jesus spoke of in John 10:16. ONE FOLD. The mystery is Whosoever. Joel 2:32 says IT SHALL COME TO PASS that whosoever.... then in early Acts chapter 2 verse 21 IT SHALL COME TO PASS that whosoever..... BUT!!! When ye get to Paul in Romans 10:13 he says "for whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." No longer does it say it shall come to pass! It came to pass when God sent Peter to the house of Cornelius in Acts 10. Paul was given this message by the ascended Lord to take it to the gentiles. He did Ephesians 3:8-9. Salvation by Grace through faith for the Jew & gentile alike!



Thanks, that's helpful. So basically the gospel revelation revealed to Paul was "whosoever will?" That there was no longer Jew or Gentile.

Was it not "whosoever will" before Paul? I'm wondering if the mystery revealed to Paul was that salvation was always possible to whosoever will but not revealed yet.

But then again scripture foretold Paul's revelation. The mystery of the gospel that had been hidden for generations.

Just thinking about salvation before Paul I guess. If "whosoever will" was the hidden part, then it seems like the Gentiles would not know they could seek salvation before Paul because it was hidden.
They may could have but if one didn't know, it's almost the same as not seeking.

If a Gentile could seek salvation, then why was that revelation hidden until Paul?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2018)

Also scripture foretold of God telling Abraham when he said, "All nations will be blessed through you." 

This was the blessing of Jesus coming to "whosoever will."


----------



## strothershwacker (Dec 20, 2018)

Paul uses some terminology that's a lil' tuff for us sometimes. Even Peter thought so. 2Peter 3:15-18. We read the promises to Abraham & the writings pointing toward acceptance of the gentiles in retrospect because we're on this side of the cross and the mystery. Salvation by faith through grace separate and apart from the law for everyone was totally concealed from man until after the ascension, when the mystery was revealed to Paul.  All 4 of the gospels and early Acts we see a church born of Jews who where accepting Christ as their messiah but with close adherence to the law of Moses. Paul spends most of his post conversion life trying to get and keep believers on this side of the cross 2Corinthians 3:13-15. He refers to it as the dispensation of grace.Ephesians 3:2. We have trouble seeing what the mystery is because we veiw it as though those believers of the past knew everything we now read from the epistles but they didn't have those writings. We have the fulfillment of the scripture. We have the unfolding of the mystery. The mystery is revealed. It's not a mystery any longer. That's why we have trouble with trying to figure out what the mystery was. Galatians 3:23-29. More on the unfolding of this mystery by Paul in Ephesians 1:3-13.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 22, 2018)

Well Art, I think your onto a gold mine so to speak and perhaps there is a by product of yours  that I find interesting.

It is this: Simply, and perhaps too simply for some to capture, in the statement " For those God foreknew he also predestined... to conform to the image of Christ. " (This comes from Romans chapter 8 I believe.) is simply the apostles drawing from the observations that through Abraham and the declarations of prophets such as Isaiah and others what is their understanding of predestination and God's foreknowlege.

Peter speaks of "stangers" chosen in the foreknowledge of God ".


John 17: 25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you[e] known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

In Romans 9 the authors or author of Romans indicates that through Hosea the gentiles had been called and predestined...

And so predestination is not a huge convoluted topic according to the first Christians. People were predestined by God by his  acting in relationship with the people who believed and trusted Him. In His relationship with the prophets he called all to Him, call them what you will stangers or Jews.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2018)

gordon 2 said:


> Well Art, I think your onto a gold mine so to speak and perhaps there is a by product of your  that I find interesting.
> 
> It is this: Simply, and perhaps too simply for some to capture, in the statement " For those God foreknew he also predestined... to conform to the image of Christ. " (This comes from Romans chapter 8 I believe.) is simply the apostles drawing from the observations that through Abraham and the declarations of prophets such as Isaiah and others what their understanding of predestination and God's foreknowlege.
> 
> ...



So those God foreknew he also predestined could be the Gentiles in general. We know from scripture that calling the Gentiles, in time, was in scripture way before the "time" revealed to Paul.

It's interesting to me that even though the Gentiles were predestined to be God's children that Paul said they were strangers or foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Predestined before time but maybe called later? Isn't this how God works even on individuals?

"remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel, strangers to the commonwealth."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2018)

"In Romans 9 the authors or author of Romans indicates that through Hosea the gentiles had been called and predestined."

Lots of ideas and views on that one. The people in Hosea was definitely about ethnic Israel. In that "time" it was. Those were the ones called in that "time."
If we look beyond that time to Paul's time, those predestined were called. This being the Gentiles as revealed by Paul. In Romans 9, Paul now sees the passages in Hosea as the present inclusion of the Gentiles into Israel. Not all who are of Abraham were his seed.

Just one idea or concept. Paul continues to address Israel and Gentiles in Romans.
Realize this approach may change God's promise to Israel, depending on how you believe. It's not an easy task.

Like strotherswacker says, Paul is a lil' tuff for us sometimes, even Peter.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 22, 2018)

I think the key to understand Paul and Peter is to understand what they understood predestination to be, and not what we might understand it to means today. It is both their understanding of God and human beings in general.

Or the people the Father had given Jesus were both Jews and Gentiles. I personally don't have the view that all gentiles did not know the Father. I believe many did--and what they have in common with Jews in the days of Jesus is that they do not conform to the image of Christ. Or in the case of the Gentiles many know about God and believe in their hearts on Him, ( like many North American natives believed in the Creator  who loved his red children) but knew him not as Jesus Savior. These gentiles ( who believed in their hearts ) like the apostles knew that Jesus was of God initially... They were the one the Father gives Jesus, then and now...

When Paul references the Greek statue to the unknown God, that is the God he ministers to the Gentiles... as this their God which is now knowable.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2018)

gordon 2 said:


> I think the key to understand Paul and Peter is to understand what they understood predestination to be, and not what we might understand it to means today. It is both their understanding of God and human beings in general.
> 
> Or the people the Father had given Jesus were both Jews and Gentiles. I personally don't have the view that all gentiles did not know the Father. I believe many did--and what they have in common with Jews in the days of Jesus is that they do not conform to the image of Christ. Or in the case of the Gentiles many know about God and believe in their hearts on Him, ( like many North American natives believed in the Creator  who loved his red children) but knew him not as Jesus Savior. These gentiles ( who believed in their hearts ) like the apostles knew that Jesus was of God initially... They were the one the Father gives Jesus, then and now...
> 
> When Paul references the Greek statue to the unknown God, that is the God he ministers to the Gentiles... as this their God which is now knowable.



Then maybe to know God is to know Jesus. The red man knew God by his creation but not the gospel nor the history of the Jews. Those Gentiles, the red ones were foreknown and predestined to become children of God.

At that time in time when they believed.  Maybe to know the Father is to know the Son.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2018)

So the question is; has any individual had to wait in "time" to receive salvation? Has any individual ever been without God and without hope?
Never strangers to the promises, waiting on a "time?"

Never waiting on the Jews to be hardened and salvation being offered to the Gentile because of this rejection?

I like it, it sounds very fair. It's the way I'd do it if I was God. That way we don't have to question the Potter's rights. It's the most fair way to do it. It doesn't depend on man or missionaries. 

Just divine intervention from God for an effectual calling. It's really the only fair way to salvation. It makes me sleep better knowing the whole world knew God and was able to make this choice 1,000 years ago. 

They knew God and thus knew Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 22, 2018)

gordon 2 said:


> When Paul references the Greek statue to the unknown God, that is the God he ministers to the Gentiles... as this their God which is now knowable.



When in "time" was their God not knowable? When in time was those God foreknew not predestined to become His children?

When in time was any individual in the whole wide world that God foreknew, not predestined to become a child of God?

*Galatians 3:29*
29 And if you _are_ Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 

Ephesians 1:5 
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

Somehow either in time or out of time, God saw or planned on the Jews and Gentiles to seek salvation.

Every single last soul ever born. Every person in the whole wide world. In time or out of time, knew God or of God. Every person was or will be asked to believe in Jesus or maybe they believe but just don't call him Jesus.

Every person of every time, in the whole word, is predestined to sonship. Through Jesus by God, in accordance to "His" pleasure and will, not ours.


----------



## strothershwacker (Dec 23, 2018)

(For I have determined to not know anything among you, except  Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 1Corinthians 2:2).


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 23, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> When in "time" was their God not knowable? When in time was those God foreknew not predestined to become His children?
> 
> When in time was any individual in the whole wide world that God foreknew, not predestined to become a child of God?
> 
> ...


Universalism?


----------



## welderguy (Dec 23, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Universalism?



But there's this.

1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2018)

Did Adam's transgression imputed to all of us?

1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

It's just strange that Adam's sin was imputed to all of us but not the blood of Christ.

I can't recall but there is another verse that says all died through Adam but only "some" will be made alive by Christ.

Just too may verses about the resurrection in relation to the sheep and goats for universalism to be true.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2018)

welderguy said:


> But there's this.
> 
> 1 John 2:2
> 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



Could it be John is addressing Jews when saying "and not for ours only," and "of the whole world" being Gentiles?

I think that Paul sometimes uses salvation to all or salvation for the whole world to show the inclusion of Gentiles and not just the Jews.
Maybe John is doing this as well.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2018)

Most of us like to think that in order for God to be just, that he has in some way offered salvation to every soul that has ever lived. If only through nature or divine intervention to every person throughout all time in the whole wide world.

That's what we want to believe in order to see God as just. That maybe the red man knew God and thus knew Jesus. I'm not saying that this isn't true or that it's not possible with God.

I can only offer scripture that God has mercy on whom he has mercy and hardens whom he wants to harden. I don't think God ever says he is going to offer salvation to the whole wide world and through every age of time as well. 

I'm sure many of us will say that we don't see this as fair. Paul knew we'd ask so he said;

Romans 9:19-20
One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”   20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?”


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2018)

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

If taken out of context, God will have mercy on "all." If we read the whole passage we see it means both Jews and Gentiles. Even this whole passage sounds a bit like Universalism. All Israel shall be saved?
Election on account of the patriarchs? Gentiles receiving mercy because of the Jews disobedience. Jews receiving mercy on account of Gentiles disobedience.

Again, Paul knew we would question God concerning this;

Romans 11:33-36
O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”
35“Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?”  36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 23, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Galatians 3:8
> Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."
> 
> or
> ...


It was foreordained from the foundation of the Earth. It did not come as a surprise to God, nor did it sneak up on Him. It is all part of God's redemption plan unfolding in time and History.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> It was foreordained from the foundation of the Earth. It did not come as a surprise to God, nor did it sneak up on Him. It is all part of God's redemption plan unfolding in time and History.



I would agree, it didn't sneak up on God or come as a surprise to God.
But would you agree that it unfolded in time and History?

Maybe that is my argument, that it unfolded in time and History. Some say it didn't, that God doesn't change so therefore his plan hasn't unfolded in time. That no Gentile has ever been without God or strangers to the commonwealth of the promises to Israel because of a time restraint.

Therefore the red man, 1,000 years ago, knew God. At least the ones foreordained and called for God's purpose. 

God had to know. He knew the red man was in the Americas. It didn't sneak up on him. It may have happened in time according to God's plan, but God was definitely aware of the timing.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2018)

I'm gonna say that humans came to the Americas 13,000 years ago. Somewhere or within time, they forgot God.
I can't really blame them. Things like this just happen over time and the move. Maybe they never knew God, maybe they did but their ancestors abandoned  that belief. Maybe after the flood but before the move to the Americas. Maybe years later, after the move.

Anyway, and for whatever reason, little bitty children, didn't know God. I blame their parents and grandparents. The right religion lost over time, to idols, and false beliefs.

Regardless, and though time, God knows who his individual children are. It's not like he is going to not call his individual children out of pagan nations. Maybe at some point in time God switched from National salvation to individual salvation.

So advance in time and through time in regards to the red man Gentiles.
These people have not always been pagans. At least not all their ancestors. Some of them came from Noah. Some of them were ancestors of God's children.

Besides, not all that are from Abraham are from Abraham so even that aspect isn't needed.

Therefore, there must be children of God in the South Pacific 1,000 years ago. There must have been someone there that God knew.

God must have children everywhere. All nations, scattered among the pagans of every belief.

A tiny little island with only five children maybe.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 24, 2018)

It could be argued that since the fall all have been plagued by the belief in more than one god. 

Ancient Egyptian social spirituality is very interesting in this regard as their rulers went from the cults of a single god to the cults with many deities from regime to regime and then back to single god cults and so on. I suspect they mirror the planet's people in microcosm. Egyptians believed in a better place after death for good people, as they had the notions of good and bad. They had creation myths whereby man was created from the earth.

Out of them( ancient Egyptian society) came one Moses whom God called  and Moses and at least one group of persecuted souls... they called on God to do right by them and He called them to do right by him and well you know the rest of the story.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 24, 2018)

Red Jacket, the Seneca chief, suspected Christianity as possibly fraudulent, and  claimed (stated) that Great Spirit had created everything and had done so because in North America: " All this he had done for his red children because he loved them." He says this to missionaries ( possibly Methodists) who have come to convert him and his people.

He says this to  the missionaries:  " Brother! We are told that you have been preaching to the white people in this place. These people are our neighbors. We are acquainted with them. We will wait a little while, and see what effect your preaching has upon them. If we find it does them good and makes them honest and less disposed to cheat Indians, we will then consider again what you have said."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 24, 2018)

What's interesting is those Indians came from Noah as well. Originally from the same religion and same God.  The same for the rest of the world. How did a whole world that once knew God loose track of Him as they moved and developed on other continents and islands?

Did the whole world abandon God and exchanged worshiping Him for that of idols and false Gods? Now through time, God has had to relocate his children. 

Or God elected one nation out of all of these people who all once knew God. Maybe to bring them all back home, under one tent.

Other flock to attend, previous children.

I'm reminded of the story of the shepherd that left the herd to go get his one lost sheep. So maybe none are ever really lost or being lost is just a temporary thing for a sheep.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 24, 2018)

All I know is that it is hard to stay in the "zone" with God. When you think all is well, that a lifetime of friendship with God is going great, someone gives griefs to my children and I want to return the insult to that person's children with interest.

I can read where this form of from the gut  justice has happened in history  and in the history of the First Nations of North America, ( eye for and eye plus get his women, children land, etc... ) and not only First Nations but in the systematic settlements of  white Christians in NA, and then you realize this is also in my heart today, to do,  to work up the exact same evil to someone who I perceive to injure my family--justice being claimed as natural and yet not of our Lord!

So even Christians are not unlike non Christians... it takes a strong faith in God not to act...in sinful ways... It takes a strong individual who is willing to forget the injuries of others... and call a former enemy a friend.


----------

