# New thread about released birds....



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 8, 2011)

I started a new thread just to keep from hijacking the other thread which is about a club.  I understand yall not wanting the state to do a release program on public lands and would rather  any funds raised by a "stamp" go towards habitat improvement.  In a perfect world I would agree 100%, but we ain't a perfect world....quail hunting is probably the least pursued hunting sport that is available to some extent or other through  out the state of Georgia. There are plenty of reasons for this but the main on was change in land usage in the latter half of the 20th century leading to a decline in the bird population which led to a decline in bird hunters....you know those crazy folks that like to chase dogs.

I know tons of folks that used to have dogs but don't now because they aint got birds to hunt.  I know tons of folks that would love to have bird dogs, but alas, there is nowhere to hunt birds.....prestocking and restocking public land through out the state would give these folks somewhere to hunt, they buy dogs, more folks start...can you see the patern.....the more bird hunters there are in the state, the more of a say bird hunters have in all public hunting areas and with where funds are allocated. Right now, most all management decisions are made with deer, then turkey then waterfowl in mind, why you ask....cause there are more deer hunters than all other hunters combined in the state, followed by turkey hunters...etc.....we, the lovers of bird dogs and such are at the very bottom of the totem pole, and as long as we worry about, I think the term was "jacklegs" on public lands walking up birds, we will remain at the bottom of the totem pole.  

At some point in time, every single person reading this was a neophyte jackleg when it came to bird hunting...what is really amazing is that there are as many folks on this board that are willing to spend thousands of dollars to just see some dogs work and MAYBE kill a bird or two....we are the diehards.  Though we are diehards, at some point in time we will die, and we aint replacing our types at the natural rate of lose.  

I say loudly, FILL THE PUBLIC LANDS WITH FOLKS LOOKING FOR BIRDS.....then we might actually get management for birds and if we ever want the state to make bird hunting a realistic possibility for everyone in the state who wants a bird dog, they are going to have to do what they do in NY, Virginia, and tons of other states with pheasants, they are going to have to stock, and stock hard.....heck it would probably take some heat off the wild coveys on public land.....most of the "jacklegs" and old verterans would limit out before they messed with wild birds.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 8, 2011)

Sorry, went back and read the other threads, the proper term was "jackwagons"....I just said jackleg I reckon cause that is what we always called folks that were new or ....I don't know the term.....not as adept at the sport.

It is funny, most all the folks my age that have been chasing quail for over 30 to 40 years tend to agree with wanting them to stock quail, we know how it was when there were plenty of quail.  Heck I saw someone talk about a 4 covey day of wild birds, coming up and for most of my life hunting quail, that was a rather bad day.  Regardless of that though, if something isn't done soon, there won't be many quail hunters outside of rural south Ga. (those of us fortunate enough to still have access to wild birds to hunt on a regular basis).. The state of Ga. ain't gonna do much for birds on public lands because there won't be the folks asking for it.  If there ain't large number of quail hunters in the state, we aint gonna have a voice at the public hearings when the deer hunters, turkey hunters and everyone else to include us quail hunters are bickering over the dwindling supply of dollars that the DNR is gonna have for game management.


----------



## LEON MANLEY (Mar 8, 2011)

If the quails habitat is not sufficient they will not survive to see the next sunrise.


----------



## muckalee (Mar 8, 2011)

stock public lands with quail and you will have so many jackwagons, jacklegs, jack______ come out of the woodwork it would not be funny! In fact, it would be dangerous.  And they would not stop at 12, 15, 25 birds. You could do a draw-only quota hunt which would help control the pressure better and be safer for all.
Also, what would it cost to stock WMA's across the state?


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 8, 2011)

LEON MANLEY said:


> If the quails habitat is not sufficient they will not survive to see the next sunrise.



No doubt, that isn't to big of a problem down here on the public lands (we have those pesky red cockaded woodpeckers that require open piney woods so they are manageing for them).  I know on a good bit of the bigger wmas up in middle ga. there are tons of clear cuts and from a couple of years until the replanted pines get 4 or 5 feet tall they are great habitat for quail.  Every now and then I hunt those wma's and find wild birds....I imagine the released ones would last for a couple of weekend hunts.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 8, 2011)

muckalee said:


> stock public lands with quail and you will have so many jackwagons, jacklegs, jack______ come out of the woodwork it would not be funny! In fact, it would be dangerous.  And they would not stop at 12, 15, 25 birds. You could do a draw-only quota hunt which would help control the pressure better and be safer for all.
> Also, what would it cost to stock WMA's across the state?



I don't know what public lands you hunt, but I run into Officers on the ones I hunt and get checked all the time.  Heck they make tons of money on over the limit put and take trout fishermen in N. Ga.  

I don't how it would be any more dangerous than a public land dove shoot, heck, it dang sure wouldn't be as dangerous as all those "jackleg" deer hunters in the woods with high powered rifles.....

They have pheasant stamps in plenty of the mid west and N.E. states and that is what finances the stocking....just like the nurseries we have for a put and take trout fishery, the trout  stamp finances that.  Your average person out there hunting birds is gonna follow the laws, there will be some that won't JUST LIKE NOW.  Heck, we got folks that hunt singles on public land and that is the worst thing you can do, you should never hunt singles on public land.  Most any quail manager will tell you not to hunt singles, but how many folks do it on public land.....using the thought, well If I don't kill those birds, someone else will and all of a sudden WE AINT GOT  WILD BIRDS ON PUBLIC LANDS.  I made the mistake of telling folks on this board about public lands where I had been finding birds last year, apparently alot of folks hunted them and from what some folks have told me there was a good bit of hunting singles going on.  To me, anyone who would hunt singles on public land (or any land that gets hunted more than once a year) is less ethical than someone who shoots over the limit of released birds.  If you noticed I did not post once this year where I had been finding birds. Course I fill that way about someone hunting wild birds with a 12 gauge, etc....each one of us has our own ethics on bird hunting...

As for lotto hunts...well those are keeping the numbers low....low numbers=not many programs for public land to improve bird hunting cause for every bird hunter showing up at a hearing you will have 100+ deer hunters and 100+ turkey hunters....guess what,that means no money for quail hunters on public lands.


----------



## cabinetjedi (Mar 8, 2011)

I was talking just the other day about this very subject. I'm kinda still on the fence  .It would be nice to be able to go out and find more quail and I wouldn't mind paying for it through a stamp or permit of some kind.As has been said the DNR has had a trout stocking program for years and without this program many people would not get to experience what it is to catch a trout however I do not think that the stocking program has improved the "quality " of trout fishing here. There are many streams up here that most if not all of whats caught is stocked trout that may have only been in the stream for a few days or hours , to catch one of these is in no way the same as catching a wild trout. The stocking program no doubt has filled a void from a numbers stand point but quality trout fishing has suffered IMO.
 I guess a quail stocking program would be more for middle and south Ga. , there are not many places up here that would seem suitable and those spots no doubt would get hammered just like the trout stocking streams do which I can see as very dangerous , other states that stock birds how do they keep hunters from piling up on one area?


----------



## cabinetjedi (Mar 8, 2011)

Just read on another forum where Ohio DNR was looking at a wild quail trap and release program , this may be an option .


----------



## preston (Mar 8, 2011)

*public land*

one step in that direction would be to allow folks to hunt relase birds on all sutiable wmas in designated areas.   bring your birds hunt and maybe drop in the other areas to find a wild covey or 2 but dont shoot the wild ones...


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 8, 2011)

RBC, Even tho we both have disagreed on some issues, I do believe you are spot on with your views on this topic. In order to get a seat and voice at the table where decisions are made, you have to have numbers. Unfortunately the interest and hunter numbers for wild quail hunting in Ga. is very dismal to say the least. And mostly for the reasons you stated. Simply no birds to hunt. 

Many that know me will say that I have always spoke of a special small game stamp to generate funds for small game habitat improvement on WMA's. I as most small game hunters would gladly pay the extra if we knew the money would be set aside specifically for this purpose. I have talked with both DNR LE officers and game mgmt. personnel on this topic. The problem is getting this approved because they look at a stamp as a form of tax. It would have to be passed in the correct legal jargon and even then I would be afraid it would just drop into the black hole of the state general fund without hunter knowledge. Same for a stocking program. I totally agree that it would work with right habitat and management. 

But what is amazing to me is the people  that love to talk about having their voices heard and solving problems but when giving the opportunity never even bother to show up at the proposed season regulation meetings that occur every New Year. These are hosted by the DNR at several locations through out the state. At these meetings you can stand and be heard. I go every yr. and I can tell you that it is very sad. I am often the only small game hunter there to speak and I always invite people to go. Like you stated, I have to listen to All the Johnny Come Lately Goat  Hunters wine and complain about how dismal our goat herd is but at least I can say they have passion and show up. All I can say is that we small game hunters as a whole do a very poor job of representing ourselves and I hope this can change.


----------



## Wingmaster870 (Mar 9, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I started a new thread just to keep from hijacking the other thread which is about a club.  I understand yall not wanting the state to do a release program on public lands and would rather  any funds raised by a "stamp" go towards habitat improvement.  In a perfect world I would agree 100%, but we ain't a perfect world....quail hunting is probably the least pursued hunting sport that is available to some extent or other through  out the state of Georgia. There are plenty of reasons for this but the main on was change in land usage in the latter half of the 20th century leading to a decline in the bird population which led to a decline in bird hunters....you know those crazy folks that like to chase dogs.
> 
> I know tons of folks that used to have dogs but don't now because they aint got birds to hunt.  I know tons of folks that would love to have bird dogs, but alas, there is nowhere to hunt birds.....prestocking and restocking public land through out the state would give these folks somewhere to hunt, they buy dogs, more folks start...can you see the patern.....the more bird hunters there are in the state, the more of a say bird hunters have in all public hunting areas and with where funds are allocated. Right now, most all management decisions are made with deer, then turkey then waterfowl in mind, why you ask....cause there are more deer hunters than all other hunters combined in the state, followed by turkey hunters...etc.....we, the lovers of bird dogs and such are at the very bottom of the totem pole, and as long as we worry about, I think the term was "jacklegs" on public lands walking up birds, we will remain at the bottom of the totem pole.
> 
> ...



wow, your comments never cease to amaze me RBC.

i used the term jackwagon and I gotta say the tenacity with which you quoted me in your rant was impressive but do you really believe that developing a quail stamp - to raise money - to give to the state - to buy domestic quail - to conduct a mass release program on public lands next fall  - for the public to shoot....is the best use of our time and resources???

That venture would bring up so many issues I dont even know where to start....

-genetic impact on wild populations (an unknown).
-disease impacts on wild populations
-impacts to local predator communities
-costs of re-stocking in fuel, man power, etc
-survival rates of the stocked birds

this list could go on for days

ya'll are referencing trout stamps....i dont know where all of the trout stamp money goes but if it goes to the re-stocking of rainbow trout (a non-native fish) in easily accessible streams so that the locals can fill the freezer every thursday then i say it is a waste of money.  Trout fishing in north georgia is hiking deep in to first and second order tributary streams to catch native brook trout...not catching stockers underneath a bridge or behind Buford Dam.  

Now RBC...I'm not questioning where your heart is at or your passion for wild quail hunting and habitat restoration....I just think your off target here.  I know in your lifetime and even recently you've done much more for quail than I probably have and I can respect that.  But you know what I did this year....I took several people old and young, on their first hunt (wild and released).  It wasnt always convenient and wasnt always exactly how i wanted to spend my saturday but seeing their interest in the sport and the dogs literally skyrocket after a hunt made it worthwhile.  Two of them are already looking for bird dogs to purchase this spring. 

So if you want to get more people involved and support a quail habitat stamp then I agree...but get them involved by taking them hunting and showing them the proper way to go about chasing quail.  Behind pointing dogs, shooting only covey rises over pointed dogs, leaving singles and small coveys, and only shooting a 410 or 28 or 20 if you so wish. 

If every one of us on this board takes 5 new people hunting next year then that will undoubtedly result in a more significant increase in our smalll game hunters than spending a million bucks on pen-raised bird releases.

and oh yea...IMHO!


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

X2 on Wingmaster's post.  Additionally, how much would you be willing to pay for a quail stamp?  Let's pretend the state can get birds at $2.50.  If the stamp is $50 you would get 20 birds per stamp, not counting any other expenses to release them.  Do you think 20 birds per hunter is going to do much over a long season?


----------



## coveyrise90 (Mar 9, 2011)

I like the idea of opening more lands for released quail. But I wouldn't allow it on every WMA with quail habitat. I think some should focus of wild birds and let other release. I say this because the pen raised birds can carry disease and will attract more predators... which is obviously not good for the wild birds. 

Its takes a die hard to do what many wild bird hunters do today... hunt hard all day with hopes of finding a single covey. If you kill a bird, that's icing on the cake. But most 1st time hunters would lose interest in the sport if this was how they were introduced. Stocked WMAs would be a much better alternative. Plus, it would ease some of the pressure on the wild coveys. 

I talked with a friend in South-central AL who hunts on the Conecuh National Forest, where releasing quail is a common practice. Phillip is the president of the Quail Forever chapter there and he said that most the of members wouldn't hunt if they couldn't release birds on the forest. The wild birds are still there, but only the die hards hunt them. It works out well. People keep dogs because they have a place where they can go and put out birds. And they join the QF chapter and donate money to projects to help wild quail.... even though most only have interest in released birds. So its a win-win situation. 

Adam


----------



## Wingmaster870 (Mar 9, 2011)

coveyrise90 said:


> I like the idea of opening more lands for released quail. But I wouldn't allow it on every WMA with quail habitat. I think some should focus of wild birds and let other release. I say this because the pen raised birds can carry disease and will attract more predators... which is obviously not good for the wild birds.
> 
> Its takes a die hard to do what many wild bird hunters do today... hunt hard all day with hopes of finding a single covey. If you kill a bird, that's icing on the cake. But most 1st time hunters would lose interest in the sport if this was how they were introduced. Stocked WMAs would be a much better alternative. Plus, it would ease some of the pressure on the wild coveys.
> 
> ...



now that makes sense...sounds like a decent gig.

i agree that more public areas should be open as do-it-yourself release/training areas.  

That gives the guy who doesnt want to pay for a year round lease or doesnt want to wait until after deer season... a place to work his dogs.  But proposing that the state boys go out and release them for you for you to shoot is ridiculous.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wingmaster870 said:


> now that makes sense...sounds like a decent gig.
> 
> i agree that more public areas should be open as do-it-yourself release/training areas.
> 
> That gives the guy who doesnt want to pay for a year round lease or doesnt want to wait until after deer season... a place to work his dogs.  But proposing that the state boys go out and release them for you for you to shoot is ridiculous.



Yep.  I'd spend a lot more time at Walton County Dove field for example if it was a better place to run my dogs (a pond, more ground cover, and a bit more shade).  I wouldn't mind paying more for the state to make those improvements.


----------



## JuliaH (Mar 9, 2011)

Good post, and good ideas here. There are always those who find fault but don't do anything much about these things themselves. I appreciate the fact that wingmaster has taken others out to introduce them to the sport of quail hunting too. 

Now, with that said, as a jack-whatchamacallit, I don't hunt but my dogs do compete in trials. I have my shotgun, but have never shot a quail, not sure if I could actually hit one or not...lol. Finally, this year, some good folks have offered to let me bring my dogs and hunt on land that they manage or own and I appreciate that VERY much, though I have not made it out there yet... 

Since I am 66 now, I am just one little old lady who loves the outdoors and loves to watch and learn   I wish I had been exposed to these great dogs as a young lady, but I wasn't so I work with others who have helped me a lot. My confidence is small, but I keep a few birds on my place and get the dogs out when I can. The fun for me is watching the dogs work, holding a beautiful point steady even when the bird is flushed, and then letting them go find some more   And competition in Field Trials and Hunting Tests, depending on the dog's ability. 

The best thing that can be done, imho, is to somehow work together, get some of us "jacks" to go to meetings to support what you do because we also love it, even without so much experience as many of you have.  How easy is it to get the state to do stuff for you... my experience says it's about as easy as getting the Titanic to miss the iceberg, but it's worth the trouble. 

With released quail on WMAs then maybe the wild quail can thrive because the released birds will be easier to hunt and make a quota on, so that arguement about released vs wild doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 

Julia



redneck_billcollector said:


> I started a new thread just to keep from hijacking the other thread which is about a club. I understand yall not wanting the state to do a release program on public lands and would rather any funds raised by a "stamp" go towards habitat improvement. In a perfect world I would agree 100%, but we ain't a perfect world....quail hunting is probably the least pursued hunting sport that is available to some extent or other through out the state of Georgia. There are plenty of reasons for this but the main on was change in land usage in the latter half of the 20th century leading to a decline in the bird population which led to a decline in bird hunters....you know those crazy folks that like to chase dogs.
> 
> I know tons of folks that used to have dogs but don't now because they aint got birds to hunt. I know tons of folks that would love to have bird dogs, but alas, there is nowhere to hunt birds.....prestocking and restocking public land through out the state would give these folks somewhere to hunt, they buy dogs, more folks start...can you see the patern.....the more bird hunters there are in the state, the more of a say bird hunters have in all public hunting areas and with where funds are allocated. Right now, most all management decisions are made with deer, then turkey then waterfowl in mind, why you ask....cause there are more deer hunters than all other hunters combined in the state, followed by turkey hunters...etc.....we, the lovers of bird dogs and such are at the very bottom of the totem pole, and as long as we worry about, I think the term was "jacklegs" on public lands walking up birds, we will remain at the bottom of the totem pole.
> 
> ...


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wingmaster870 said:


> -genetic impact on wild populations (an unknown).
> -disease impacts on wild populations
> -impacts to local predator communities
> -costs of re-stocking in fuel, man power, etc
> -survival rates of the stocked birds



I don't know how you can deny that this will hurt wild populations.  I'll add one to the list, food availability.   I want to see habitat improvement.  "If you build it, they will come"


----------



## huntindawg (Mar 9, 2011)

RBC, do you approve of pay to shoot (I refuse to call it hunting) waterfowl operations such as Skeeter Branch?


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 9, 2011)

We definitely have alot of collective knowledge here but bottom line is that it needs to be focused and channeled in the right direction. You have to go to the DNR proposed season regulation meetings every year and be heard. No one has addressed what I spoke of above. Where do you guys think changes are heard and possibly made? If you buy a WMA stamp and hunt in Ga. You are doing yourself a terrible dis-service if you don't go to the meetings. 

The rest on here is just hot air if not directed properly. Totally agree that habitat improvement should be first and foremost on select WMA's that do and can support respectable quail populations. Nitram said to build it and they will come. Spot on and that is the tip of the spear. With the current DNR budget, even possible stocking won't happen. I would rather see limited and select habitat improvement.


----------



## Wingmaster870 (Mar 9, 2011)

Beagle Stace said:


> We definitely have alot of collective knowledge here but bottom line is that it needs to be focused and channeled in the right direction. You have to go to the DNR proposed season regulation meetings every year and be heard. No one has addressed what I spoke of above. Where do you guys think changes are heard and possibly made? If you buy a WMA stamp and hunt in Ga. You are doing yourself a terrible dis-service if you don't go to the meetings.
> 
> The rest on here is just hot air if not directed properly. Totally agree that habitat improvement should be first and foremost on select WMA's that do and can support respectable quail populations. Nitram said to build it and they will come. Spot on and that is the tip of the spear. With the current DNR budget, even possible stocking won't happen. I would rather see limited and select habitat improvement.



agreed.  

If you dont mind Beagle how do you feel about the current impact (or lack thereof) of the Griffin QF chapter on local WMAs?  

Seems like we are having a hard time scraping members and $ together and last year the donation to Joe Kurz WMA went towards an herbicide application. 

 How much voice does QF have in how this money is spent each year?

Is it possible to hold the money and make dontations every 2-3 years so that it amounts to something a little more significant?


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

Beagle Stace said:


> We definitely have alot of collective knowledge here but bottom line is that it needs to be focused and channeled in the right direction. You have to go to the DNR proposed season regulation meetings every year and be heard. No one has addressed what I spoke of above. Where do you guys think changes are heard and possibly made? If you buy a WMA stamp and hunt in Ga. You are doing yourself a terrible dis-service if you don't go to the meetings.
> 
> The rest on here is just hot air if not directed properly. Totally agree that habitat improvement should be first and foremost on select WMA's that do and can support respectable quail populations. Nitram said to build it and they will come. Spot on and that is the tip of the spear. With the current DNR budget, even possible stocking won't happen. I would rather see limited and select habitat improvement.



You are right Stacy, in the future if we want to see any improvements spewing it on GON won't help at all.  I think I will have to make it a point to attend next year's meetings as well as spend some time in the offseason comtemplating joining some kind of quail conservation effort.  At the same time, it's discouraging because like you said, the goat and turkey hunters will always outnumber us on public land.  As far as my own hunting, I'm pretty satisfied with the private club for put out birds and the occasional trek on a WMA for wild birds.  My biggest gripe with the DNR would be to move/extend the woodcock season but I believe that is federally regulated.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 9, 2011)

Nitram, It is very important to attend these meetings and speak. We all should. An we all should also continue to recruit and take new small game hunters into the field. We are all mentors of our sport and this is a serious responsibility for each of us. We can have a positive influence in the future of hunting. 

As for WC season, I agree. I wish we could have maybe a 45 day season but I understand the fed. stipulations. As for quail conservations organizations, I belong to QF .While not totally happy with their direction, I do feel that it is money well spent and they do a great job of mentoring young hunters.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 9, 2011)

cabinetjedi said:


> Just read on another forum where Ohio DNR was looking at a wild quail trap and release program , this may be an option .



I would support it. I would love to see the wild quail population increase. I attempted to release a 100 birds one time in hopes that they would cross with wild birds and make it. They made it longer than I thought they would and I still see a few here and there, but Im sure the yotes and hawks have taken the tole on them.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 9, 2011)

Who is that masked man called Wingmaster? I have a sneaky suspicion I know. But to answer your questions on Griffin QF chapter-  I can't for 100% certainity answer how much influence the QF chapter has over how the money is spent. I want to better understand this myself. I would think that money could be held till a larger more significant amount could be released to the WMA area mgr. for larger scale improvements.


----------



## dawg2 (Mar 9, 2011)

ABAChunter said:


> There was a study done by Tall Timbers a few years back.
> Of pen released quail the first year about 20 percent will survive from fall to spring . After that about 5 percent will survive annually with full-fledged nesting and brood-rearing.



How does that compare to a wild quail life-cycle?


----------



## Wingmaster870 (Mar 9, 2011)

Beagle Stace said:


> Who is that masked man called Wingmaster? I have a sneaky suspicion I know. But to answer your questions on Griffin QF chapter-  I can't for 100% certainity answer how much influence the QF chapter has over how the money is spent. I want to better understand this myself. I would think that money could be held till a larger more significant amount could be released to the WMA area mgr. for larger scale improvements.



you apply for the new chairman position?


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 9, 2011)

Man I think that position would be best filled by a hard charging young man. If I did not have so many irons in the fire I might jump on it. Working on something big right now with my future hunting endeavors. But I do hope the right person steps up to replace Vic. I really believe he has done a good job and has given his best. I can definitely understand his decision to pass the torch.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

Alright then, I reckon I am in the distinct minority.  I would be happy to hear from anyone here on what needs to be done to make hunting birds on public land a distinct possibility for a good bit more folks than hunt it now. If it is gonna be exclusively wild birds are they gonna have the same management restrictions that almost every big wild bird operation I am familiar with have?  Only hunt a course no more than once a week, no guns over 20 gauge,  if you are using a pump or an auto loader you are not allowed more than one shell in the gun, and the biggest one of all YOU DO NOT HUNT SINGLES. (these are the rules on almost every single wild bird property in the Albany and RedHills area, I already know most of the folks on here disagree with these rules). 

No matter what you do, if you want nothing except wild birds on public lands 
Georgia truely can't support more than maybe 50 (very liberal number)or so public land bird hunters.   Here is why, I was hunting Chickasawhatchee WMA on a wed. afternoon back in jan. (if I can I take wed. afternoons off in bird season) and I came across a truck with a (deleated county) non-local Co. tag, the two guys were bird hunting.  I asked them how their day was, they said they found a smallish covey, got a bird from the rise, then were able to get 3 more singles, it was all I could do to hold my tongue.  That covey couldn't stand being hunted for another couple of weeks, but it was after deer season so there was bird hunting there until the end of feb.

With all that being said, with even 3 or 4 hundred public land bird hunters in the whole state of Georgia (which we ain't got nowhere near that many) there wouldn't be the numbers to get the state to want to do anything with the birds.  

Now I was never used to talking about hunting on the internet, I made some big mistakes, I mentioned one  SOWEGA WMA in particular on this forum that was great hunting the first year, and rather good the second year....this last year it was mediocre.....there were a mess of folks on this forum talking about it too, I know I will never mention another WMA where I find birds on here.....Look these private plantations around here that literally spend tens of thousands of dollars a year on their wild bird populations don't let a course get hunted more than once a week, and if it is a bigger property(over say 10,000 acres) it will be maybe every other week that a course gets hunted.


Those of yall that think that public land can be managed for quail and have good wild bird hunting year in, year out are dreaming.  Limited wild bird habitat means limited hunting...as simple as that.  It ain't to big of a deal for me, I get invites to nice properties every year......Do  draw hunts for wild birds?  That won't last, my whole reason for starting this thread was to float an idea so we could get more folks interested in bird hunting, so the state would put more money into quail management on public land.  

Pheasant hunting apparently is steaped in tradition in New York, there are little if any wild bird populations in the state, the state stocks upwards to 25,000 pheasant a year on lands open to hunting, that is just one state that does that.  Many more do it than I ever realized (I started researching this when I thought about wma.s and quail). 

The simple fact is, if you want Georgia to do much outside of a few south Ga. WMAs for quail, we are going to need alot more quail hunters.  When I was a kid, down in this part of the state (this is true, ask some older folks on here) there were probably 3 or 4 quail hunters (and I mean folks that owned dogs and such) for every deer hunter down here, heck we didn't even have deer seasons in some south west Ga. counties.  Now there are what, maybe 1000 deer hunters per every quail hunter (once again folks with dogs), and that is down here in the part of the state with the most wild birds.  Oh yeah, the reason the few WMAs down here get managed for quail aint got a thing to do with quail, it is because there are red cockaded woodpeckers on the property and they are federally protected.  They require open, mature piney woods (trees at least 60 years old with red heart) That is the reason silver lake is like it is.  The other big wma down here, chickasawhatchee is owned, in large part, by the nature concervancy and they want to turn it back into open mature piney woods, for you guessed it, the red cockaded woodpecker.  It is just that the management practices for them benifit quail to some extent. Most wma.s are owned by other folks besides the state (at least in the coastal plain and peidmont), namely paper companies, and they have clear cuts that are replanted as pine plantations, these places would be ideal for "put and take" quail because the habitat is only gonna last for a few years and they tend to be in the middle part of the state with easy access to the more urban areas of the state.

I ain't no fan of released birds for much of anything, never even used one for training or shot at one until 3 years ago, and I have hunted quail since I was a kid (mid/late 60s).  I don't know, I have maybe owned 50/60 bird dogs in my life.  Wild birds can not take the pressure that they are exposed to on public land simply because too many people have the attitude that leads them to hunt singles cause..."if I don't get'em, somebody else will".  Please someone tell me a better idea, and remember, without numbers, the state ain't gonna do it.


----------



## T Tolbert (Mar 9, 2011)

Sounds like a great idea to me RBC. I just don't know how it would get done. In NE Ga the old quail bird is less than few and far between.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 9, 2011)

RBC, I agree with you on why the mentioned WMA's down your way are managed for quail. It is solely for the reasons you stated. And unfortunately most of the other WMA'S over towards SE Ga. where I grew up are non state owned and most are never even rotaionally burned. DNR Has their hands tied on alot of them. You are right about the middle Ga. WMA's. I do appreciate you opening this can of worms because hopefully we as a group can generate some answers.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you start releasing quail up here you are pretty much throwing in the towel on wild birds.  I live here and I don't agree with it.  I'll keep being satisfied with my 4 covey day and hope that with some effort it will become a 5 covey day.


----------



## T Tolbert (Mar 9, 2011)

Would a CRP program like those of the mid west. Help the wild birds at all? Maybe CRP and relased birds?


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

Don't know about a CRP program but if you opened up private farm land for a tax break like they do in other states that would help open up a lot of bird hunting opportunities.  I am talking about small game only.


----------



## T Tolbert (Mar 9, 2011)

Yea I agree with the small game only


----------



## coveyrise90 (Mar 9, 2011)

CRP (longleaf pine) is already available. It can work VERY well under the right conditions (not too dense, burning, pruning, disking, etc). The biggest problem is that many landowners plant the pines to densely. It will provide cover for only a few years until the trees grow together and shade out the groundcover. Also, I have seen many CRP fields that have huge problems with bahia grass.... which is a quail desert.

There is also the CP33 program. These "bobwhite buffers" are planted on the edges of farm fields. These work well too but are usually implemented by landowners that are quail hunters themselves... which means they aren't going to open their property to outside hunters. 


I don't see the state stocking public land with quail anytime soon. They can barely afford just prescribe burning. But I think they should open more WMAs that allow for hunters releasing their own birds. Its a much more achievable goal. 


Adam


----------



## ABAChunter (Mar 9, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> How does that compare to a wild quail life-cycle?



I couldn't find the exact numbers like the pen-raised quail research was. But I did find of wild quail 65 percent mortaility of chicks in the first 2 weeks of life. After 16 weeks of age (early fall) the young of the year will normally make up appox. 80 percent of the population. Ill try to find more numbers on wild quail soon.


----------



## coveyrise90 (Mar 9, 2011)

ABAChunter said:


> I couldn't find the exact numbers like the pen-raised quail research was. But I did find of wild quail 65 percent mortaility of chicks in the first 2 weeks of life. After 16 weeks of age (early fall) the young of the year will normally make up appox. 80 percent of the population. Ill try to find more numbers on wild quail soon.



I think about 3/4 of wild bobs die each year. Even if released quail do survive as long, they don't nest and reproduce as well.

Adam


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

Wingmaster870 said:


> wow, your comments never cease to amaze me RBC.
> 
> i used the term jackwagon and I gotta say the tenacity with which you quoted me in your rant was impressive but do you really believe that developing a quail stamp - to raise money - to give to the state - to buy domestic quail - to conduct a mass release program on public lands next fall  - for the public to shoot....is the best use of our time and resources???
> 
> ...



Ain't many a season that I don't take kids hunting, but I take them when I am hunting private properties with decent birds, take a kid hunting, he/she better see action or he/she is gonna be bored.  I would be willing to bet, more TU, flyrod only, catch and release trout fishermen who are natives of Georgia developed their love for trout fishing in one of the stocked "put and take" streams than not (very few streams that ain't stocked in Ga.), but for those streams, trout fishing would have only been something they would have read about. 

I am gonna attempt to address the issues you raise, and in no way am I saying I have the answers, these are just a weak attempt to address them based on my experiences with those issues or what I have read about in the past.


Genetic issues on wild birds, the biggest, most famous "hunting peserves" in Ga. such as Wynnfield, Quail Country, etc..etc. are slap dab in the middle of wild quail country, heck Wynnfield borders some rather famous wild bird opperations (along with Chickasawhatchee WMA) and there are thousands of birds released on Wynnfield every year for years, and the Albany Quail Project has not mentioned any impact on wild bird genetics or populations (one of the wild bird plantations in the study bounds wynnfield ).

As for diseases see above.

Impacts on local predator populations.......the number one predator of non-nesting quail is the hawk (about 80% of non-nesting predation).  Sure the hawks will eat alot of them, just like they do wild birds.   The catch here is that most of the hawk damage is done by migratory hawks that are down here for the winter, so the impact on their population is not going to be that much.  Probably the next biggest predator (guessing here) on non-nesting quail would be snakes.  Your furry predators (coons, possums,foxes and skunks) are mainly nest predators, that get the brooding bird and/or the eggs, they do not have a big impact on non-nesting quail (at least that is what the most extensive studies have shown).  With a "put and take" system, that wouldn't be the issue because you are not going to be concerned with them nesting.

As for cost of restocking in fuel, manpower, etc....well, the state owns the trout hatcheries that stock the trout (along with stripped bass hatcheries that stock them for fishermen, in the lakes , along with the hybrids that are so popular...lake stripped bass and hybrids are 100% "put and take")  The state could run a couple of bird farms for the birds (one in the south, one in middle ga) do heavy preseason release and once every other week during the season for probably less than running a hatchery and stocking fish.  Trout stamps supposedly pay for all the trout, that is why the state pushes the sportsman's licsense, it is included....just like the state duck stamp.  Add 5 dollar for extra stamp and you would have more than enough money.

Survival rate of the stocked birds.....obviously not as good as wild birds, but they ain't being put out to survive, they are being put out to be harvested..wild birds have only about a 20% annual survival rate.  Lets say not all are harvested by either hunters or hawks, lets say 4% or 5 % survive the season and see next season, that is gravy.  No put and take system is about over year survival, it is about opportunities for harvest for people who would otherwise not have the opportunity to harvest a (fill in the blank, trout, hybrid, stripper, or pheasant in NY) quail.

Believe you me, I am all for habitat restoration.  But here is something I want yall to think about.  Wynnefield Plantation, is a good sized, beautiful property.  It HAD  tons of wild birds on it before it became Wynnefield and a shooting preserve.  How many hunts do you figure they run a week?  At their cost, it isn't a whole bunch, but it is more than wild bird properties.  Now Adam has hunted there a few times, ask him how many wild coveys they hit....while they might have hit some, the vast majority of birds harvested were either preseason releases or recent releases.  I have hunted there a couple of times in the past couple of years (I know some of the "new" owners and one of them is an old turkey hunting partner of mine, his mother is a partner too and she actually tried to talk me into buying her out) and that was my experience, found a wild covey or two in a whole day of hunting, in prime quail habitat, surrounded by wild bird plantations that in good years average up to 4 birds an acre (according to TT and AQP) and a WMA, they feed heavily and do everything wild bird plantations do. Same thing can be said about Quail Country, Riverview, and numerous other preserves in Lee, Mitchell, Worth or Dougherty Counties.   Now any WMA that the state starts to manage heavily for quail, will have many more hunting hours than Wynnefield will have during the season unless there is a heck of a lotto.  You will end up with beautiful habitat that should have a covey in every briar patch, with no quail.  

I was just trying to respond to some of the issues you raised, and they are real, justified issues.....I would rather have public lands covered in wild birds in beautiful habitat, but that is not practical on the vast majority of the WMAs in the state, and even when they have beautiful habitat after a couple of seasons of being open to the public, the hunting heads south if they get any pressure (ala Silver Lake).


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 9, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> Believe you me, I am all for habitat restoration.  But here is something I want yall to think about.  Wynnefield Plantation, is a good sized, beautiful property.  It HAD  tons of wild birds on it before it became Wynnefield and a shooting preserve.  How many hunts do you figure they run a week?  At their cost, it isn't a whole bunch, but it is more than wild bird properties.  Now Adam has hunted there a few times, ask him how many wild coveys they hit....while they might have hit some, the vast majority of birds harvested were either preseason releases or recent releases.  I have hunted there a couple of times in the past couple of years (I know some of the "new" owners and one of them is an old turkey hunting partner of mine, his mother is a partner too and she actually tried to talk me into buying her out) and that was my experience, found a wild covey or two in a whole day of hunting, in prime quail habitat, surrounded by wild bird plantations that in good years average up to 4 birds an acre (according to TT and AQP) and a WMA, they feed heavily and do everything wild bird plantations do. Same thing can be said about Quail Country, Riverview, and numerous other preserves in Lee, Mitchell, Worth or Dougherty Counties.   Now any WMA that the state starts to manage heavily for quail, will have many more hunting hours than Wynnefield will have during the season unless there is a heck of a lotto.  You will end up with beautiful habitat that should have a covey in every briar patch, with no quail.



I think you just unintentionally nailed it RBC.  There is no way the state could stock a WMA with enough quail to make it worthwhile.  And if they did, it would be way too expensive to maintain.  I'm sure you know why these plantations charge so much..  And as a direct result of trying, you are pushing the wild birds out.   No thanks.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 9, 2011)

Beagle Stace said:


> RBC, Even tho we both have disagreed on some issues, I do believe you are spot on with your views on this topic. In order to get a seat and voice at the table where decisions are made, you have to have numbers. Unfortunately the interest and hunter numbers for wild quail hunting in Ga. is very dismal to say the least. And mostly for the reasons you stated. Simply no birds to hunt.
> 
> Many that know me will say that I have always spoke of a special small game stamp to generate funds for small game habitat improvement on WMA's. I as most small game hunters would gladly pay the extra if we knew the money would be set aside specifically for this purpose. I have talked with both DNR LE officers and game mgmt. personnel on this topic. The problem is getting this approved because they look at a stamp as a form of tax. It would have to be passed in the correct legal jargon and even then I would be afraid it would just drop into the black hole of the state general fund without hunter knowledge. Same for a stocking program. I totally agree that it would work with right habitat and management.
> 
> But what is amazing to me is the people  that love to talk about having their voices heard and solving problems but when giving the opportunity never even bother to show up at the proposed season regulation meetings that occur every New Year. These are hosted by the DNR at several locations through out the state. At these meetings you can stand and be heard. I go every yr. and I can tell you that it is very sad. I am often the only small game hunter there to speak and I always invite people to go. Like you stated, I have to listen to All the Johnny Come Lately Goat  Hunters wine and complain about how dismal our goat herd is but at least I can say they have passion and show up. All I can say is that we small game hunters as a whole do a very poor job of representing ourselves and I hope this can change.



        I am all with you on attending the meetings. I have also found that writing a letter to your local DNR board member works even better. I talked to one of the board members the other day and they said the cuts to DNR could be as much as 35% in the years to come. Moral is at an all time low. The state is broke and things don't look good.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

Nitram4891 said:


> If you start releasing quail up here you are pretty much throwing in the towel on wild birds.  I live here and I don't agree with it.  I'll keep being satisfied with my 4 covey day and hope that with some effort it will become a 5 covey day.



How so?  Who do you think does more for habitat restoration? 

 If your answer is the State, consider this...the numbers argument, the more quail hunters, the more dollars the state will spend on quail.  You get folks interested in hunting quail, be it released birds or wild birds, you start to get the state's attention.  There are only so many state dollars for game management, the state dollars get divided according to the popularity of the particular game animal.  Of course the number one benifactor of state dollars is the good ol' whitetailed deer.  The next big money cost in game is the turkey (nwtf helps out there big time).  Now the next one in line....waterfowl and DU helps fund public land projects for ducks.  Us quail hunters, are below squirrel hunters when it comes to public land users, we are at the very bottom of the list, if you don't believe me read what folks are signed in for next time you are on a WMA. (while you won't see many signed in for waterfowl on WMAs on any ONE weekend on Seminole WMA during duck season you will have more hunting hours spent on waterfowl than on any wma for quail for the whole season).  That is not counting Juliette or Altamaha.  So putting out birds on clear cuts in middle Ga. is gonna get more folks interested in bird hunting and lead to more state money for ......quail habitat.

If you think it is private organizations then you just apply the numbers theory to QF or QU.  Most of the folks in those organizations are in them because they love to quail hunt (though some are like some folks in DU, they are there for the socializing, I know members in DU that have never once shot at any waterfowl or gotten out of their bed before 7am).  The average POTENTIAL quail hunter has been hunting for quail once or twice due to being invited by someone.  They had a great time and love bird hunting, but alas, they are a starving college student or working husband and father without the access to regular places to hunt and have to rely on public lands.  They are not gonna buy a dog or anything else because it is only by rare invite that they get to hunt so therefore, they never become the  semi-regular bird hunter who owns a dog let alone a fanatic who drools over a fancy double gun and owns more than one dog.  In order to have either of the above, you need steady access to birds on public lands (at least for folks not related to half the folks down here in quail country like I am or who ain't a country lawyer or doctor who always gets invites).  If you quadrupled the number of bird hunters amongst the middle class in the metro Atlanta area or metro Macon area in a couple of years, what impact do you think that would have on private conservation organizations (QU/QF) and the money they could raise for habitat restoration?  

It is all about numbers, the more that hunt quail, there is gonna be more state and private dollars for habitat.  Without a rather decent ammount of accessable to the public birds, you aint gonna get the numbers.


----------



## Jim P (Mar 9, 2011)

You guy's need to get off RBC back he is just putting out suggestions, and I see were  he's coming from, and I agree with him on most parts, don't the quail raisers enochulate there birds?


----------



## zzweims (Mar 9, 2011)

There is a similar program at Camp Robinson in Arkansas.  Beautiful habitat and thousands of birds released every year.  They allow NO hunting, but are open to limited field trialing without live ammo. The field trial associations (QU, and others) pump a lot of private dollars into the place. I've been there and these early release birds are pretty dang good.  I spoke with the ranger/manager a few years ago.  He is very passionate about restoring quail, but with everything in place, they still haven't managed to get these release birds to reproduce.

As far as pen birds reproducing in the wild, it "can" happen, but is extremely rare.  I'm convinced that between the Camp Robertson experiment, and my own little farm, that 'habitat' is only part of it.  Genentics play a HUGE part.  'Some' pen birds will rear their young.  Most won't.

Aline


----------



## zzweims (Mar 9, 2011)

We all want public land with good habitat and tons of wild birds.  But it ain't gonna happen without a major political shift.  RBC's suggestion is not ideal (who's is?), but at least he's thinking outside the box.  If we are to get any kind of huntable numbers on public land (pen or wild), we've got to convince the state that it is a priority.  And that means numbers, in terms of bird hunters and dollars. 

Aline


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 9, 2011)

coveyrise90 said:


> I think about 3/4 of wild bobs die each year. Even if released quail do survive as long, they don't nest and reproduce as well.
> 
> Adam



   Adam,
   Throw the numbers away. So many variables from year to year. How well the property was managed,weather,predators,feeding rates,habitat etc. For some reason we have had a great survival of birds this year, maybe it is the cotton rats.  Some of the places I have been lately seem to have as many  birds as they started out the season with.

   Bill Bowles has quit Quail Unlimited. SCI will be taking it over. Maybe we are on to something . We will hunt quail off of mounted Zebra and at the end of the hunt we can shoot them. What a joke Q.U. has turned out to be. I will never give them one more dime. They should have partnered with Wild Turkey Federation. Someone that has upland game management experience. Oh yea and they were successful at it.


----------



## cabinetjedi (Mar 9, 2011)

zzweims said:


> We all want public land with good habitat and tons of wild birds.  But it ain't gonna happen without a major political shift.  RBC's suggestion is not ideal (who's is?), but at least he's thinking outside the box.  If we are to get any kind of huntable numbers on public land (pen or wild), we've got to convince the state that it is a priority.  And that means numbers, in terms of bird hunters and dollars.
> 
> Aline



 Seems to sum it up pretty nicely. So ... WHO gets to hear our desires and how do we get them the message (other than DNR meeting ) and WHERE do we send more of our dollars?


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

Nitram4891 said:


> I think you just unintentionally nailed it RBC.  There is no way the state could stock a WMA with enough quail to make it worthwhile.  And if they did, it would be way too expensive to maintain.  I'm sure you know why these plantations charge so much..  And as a direct result of trying, you are pushing the wild birds out.   No thanks.



No, the reason they are stocking is because they want to make money.  I used to hunt on one of the best wild bird properties in the state on a regular basis (maybe 2 or 3 afternoon hunts and an all day hunt when we had guest each week, all season, I dated the owner and we lived together when she was in town which was most all of the season).  It was almost 10,000 acres and had 5 courses.  That was all it got hunted, maybe a few afternoons and maybe one or two all day hunts a week.  You are talking maybe 40 man hours of hunting a week.  The plantation on good years averaged about 3 or so birds an acre for the habitat, we would have 20 plus covey afternoons most  hunts.  Whenever it got any more pressure, it was very noticable, you stopped finding the birds in big numbers and the ones you would find would flush when they heard the dogs or horses (no jeeps were ever used, just mule drawn wagons and horses).  They could easily sell hunts for wild birds (they actually sell a few each year to the tune of 2k for a one day hunt, and could sell more but the quality would decrease).  A covey should get a minimum of one week without being hunted after it is shot at, and probably a good bit more (running the courses no more than once a week made sure they never got shot at more than every few weeks), if you want to keep birds.  Wynnefield could not make money by limiting the hunts to just wild birds even at a much higher price for two reasons, one there aint the market to make enough and sustain the population.  Also to make a profit you wouldn't be able to limit it to a few hunts a year and you would loose  more than a month of hunting, which is what you have to do if you want to  only hunt wild birds (preserve season doesn't apply).  They still have wild birds, just not near as many as they used to, because to make a profit they have to hunt the courses more often than you would want to with wild birds and when a wild covey is flushed, they get shot at by the hunters, so the wild coveys get hunted and in most cases probably without a long rest period.

It is simple math, you have a 25 bird covey and you have two hunters that are decent shots, lets say an average of 2.5 birds are harvested each time the covey is shot at, also add to the fact that hawks are going to take probably half, if not more of that covey that winter and even more if they burn early.  If that covey gets shot at by two hunters once a week during the season and with hawks more than likely taking 12 to 15 of those birds during the winter, it takes no time at all for that covey to cease existing.....Now lets say you are running dogs in that covey's range 5 times a week, how many times do you reckon that covey is going to be found? If it is once out of 5 you have my math above, if it is more, it is gone quicker, in any event the covey did not survive the month of january, with over a month of season to go .  Courses on a successful preserve like Wynnfield are gonna get run much more than once a week, they are gonna be run sometimes  twice a day (some corporations book hunts for retreats that will have each course ran 2 times a day for nigh on 3 or so days straight and corporate retreats are how places like wynnfield make their money) If you started the season with 3 wild birds an acre (that would lead to 20 covey afternoons), with that kind of pressure you are going to have no wild birds by the end of the season, that is why they stock birds, it aint because the stockbirds somehow ran off the wild birds. One final thing to consider, there is no limit, you can pay for as many birds as you want after the set limit you purchased on wynnfield, that is where alot of money is made, you think you pay for penraised birds, check out the cost of extra birds on shooting preserves like wynnfield, quail country or riverview...the reason I use those three, they seem to be on every other ga quail hunting show and are always in magazines plus they are all in my neck of the woods.

The math used above is one of the reasons you should never hunt singles.......25 bird covey, you and your buddy take 3 on the rise, you hunt down 5 singles cause yall each marked a couple and stumbled on one, with you both shooting yall get all 5...that is 8 birds from a 25 bird covey due to a one time encounter....lets not forget the hawks...12 or 13, so that covey being pointed by you and your friend ONE time goes into breeding season with maybe 5 or 6 birds, then over 50% of the nests are hit with maybe 2 birds sitting on the nest taken, so you end up with one brood or two if you are lucky to replace that whole covey that no longer is there, but oh, no it is a cool wet spring...so most of your chicks die.  That is the saga of one covey on public land that was found once by two hunters...that is why you are never gonna have the spectacular (or even slightly less than mediocre) wild bird hunting on public land in Ga.  You will be able to find a covey or three if you hunt hard, but just remember, you aint the only one on that wma, during the whole season, nor do you hunt it only once......I passed on almost every covey I found on public land this year because they were small, 8 or maybe 10 birds.  I found two nice coveys on a wma in my neck of the woods that according to the manager I was the only one to sign in for quail hunting this year that were rather nice the last sunday of the season that I harvested a few birds out of.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

cabinetjedi said:


> Seems to sum it up pretty nicely. So ... WHO gets to hear our desires and how do we get them the message (other than DNR meeting ) and WHERE do we send more of our dollars?



You familiar with a dog chasin its tail?  I can only think of one species  in Ga, whose hunters benifited not because of their numbers and votes, but due to deer hunter numbers....that be the bear hunters, deer hunters in bear territory are screaming to have more bears harvested (some estimates say that they are taking up to 80% of the fawns where they, the bears, have high numbers), and the DNR is listening. We gotta figure out how to get the numbers....I was gonna talk to Bill Bowles (you know, get QU involved, more hunters is only good for them)  and a couple of legislatures that are friends of mine about this idea.  Ironically one of the reasons Georgia got involved in the BQI was beccause of the history of quail hunting in Ga., not the numbers of hunters, so I plan on hammering on that. It probably won't do any good, but as they say, nothing ventured, nothing gained.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

coveyrise said:


> Adam,
> Throw the numbers away. So many variables from year to year. How well the property was managed,weather,predators,feeding rates,habitat etc. For some reason we have had a great survival of birds this year, maybe it is the cotton rats.  Some of the places I have been lately seem to have as many  birds as they started out the season with.
> 
> Bill Bowles has quit Quail Unlimited. SCI will be taking it over. Maybe we are on to something . We will hunt quail off of mounted Zebra and at the end of the hunt we can shoot them. What a joke Q.U. has turned out to be. I will never give them one more dime. They should have partnered with Wild Turkey Federation. Someone that has upland game management experience. Oh yea and they were successful at it.



As of yesterday Bill was still listed as president.  I have heard plenty of rumors, I left a voice mail on Bill's phone today, maybe he will call me back tonight.  

Yeah, cotton rats help, the hawks feast on them when they are high.  Over here on private land, I saw smaller coveys overall, we had an especially cool and wet spring in this neck of the woods and I would bet we did not recruit as many chicks for the season.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

Jim P said:


> You guy's need to get off RBC back he is just putting out suggestions, and I see were  he's coming from, and I agree with him on most parts, don't the quail raisers enochulate there birds?



Heck, I like that they are questioning it, makes me think about the possible answers. I am going to be pitching this to a couple of friends in the legislature fore too long and these ain't nothing but questions they are liable to ask.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 9, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> As of yesterday Bill was still listed as president.  I have heard plenty of rumors, I left a voice mail on Bill's phone today, maybe he will call me back tonight.
> 
> Yeah, cotton rats help, the hawks feast on them when they are high.  Over here on private land, I saw smaller coveys overall, we had an especially cool and wet spring in this neck of the woods and I would bet we did not recruit as many chicks for the season.



   Talked to a guy that saw Bill today. He told him he could'nt do both jobs so he resigned from Q.U. Can't say I blame him with the economy and all. He has a good gig if he can put up with the many club members. He will be the first to if he can. I think Q.U. is pretty much done for financially.
     The bird count around the house has been great. Reports are coming in and it seems that 5 coveys an hour seems to be about average. Hunted with Clay Sisson the other day and he said hunting has been real good around the Albany area. You guys did have spotty rain in the spring though.The few times I did hunt in your area the covey sizes were outstanding. Heard any reports from the masters?


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 9, 2011)

coveyrise said:


> Talked to a guy that saw Bill today. He told him he could'nt do both jobs so he resigned from Q.U. Can't say I blame him with the economy and all. He has a good gig if he can put up with the many club members. He will be the first to if he can. I think Q.U. is pretty much done for financially.
> The bird count around the house has been great. Reports are coming in and it seems that 5 coveys an hour seems to be about average. Hunted with Clay Sisson the other day and he said hunting has been real good around the Albany area. You guys did have spotty rain in the spring though.The few times I did hunt in your area the covey sizes were outstanding. Heard any reports from the masters?



I'll be seeing Robin Gates' brother-in-law tomorrow, I will ask him if he has heard from Robin. I am sure Robin is running a few (actually more than a few) dogs there, it has been many a year that he ain't placed there.

 On my private farm land hunts the coveys were smaller than last year.  Even on the plantation hunts I had they seemed smaller than last year.  The coveys were still nice sized on the plantations, just not the 40 plus bird coveys of last year. 5 coveys an hour is about right on the plantation hunts if everyone was shooting like I was it was nothing to have a 20 plus covey afternoon hunt, if they were shooting better than me, the limits were generally reached prior to 20 coveys. I got back to playing with a .410 a wee bit more but never went above 28 this year, I don't even think I took the 20 gauge barrels out even once this year. The public land coveys were dismal, I don't think I even shot at but maybe half a dozen covey rises on public land all season (I typically will hunt WMAs heavy when they are open during deer season, then slowly switch to private land as deer season winds down), still found coveys, they were just so small I did not shoot.


----------



## T Tolbert (Mar 9, 2011)

Surrogator type system may work for what RBC is talking about. Cheaper than buying grown birds. 

I sure would like to see something like this come together.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 9, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I'll be seeing Robin Gates' brother-in-law tomorrow, I will ask him if he has heard from Robin. I am sure Robin is running a few (actually more than a few) dogs there, it has been many a year that he ain't placed there.
> 
> On my private farm land hunts the coveys were smaller than last year.  Even on the plantation hunts I had they seemed smaller than last year.  The coveys were still nice sized on the plantations, just not the 40 plus bird coveys of last year. 5 coveys an hour is about right on the plantation hunts if everyone was shooting like I was it was nothing to have a 20 plus covey afternoon hunt, if they were shooting better than me, the limits were generally reached prior to 20 coveys. I got back to playing with a .410 a wee bit more but never went above 28 this year, I don't even think I took the 20 gauge barrels out even once this year. The public land coveys were dismal, I don't think I even shot at but maybe half a dozen covey rises on public land all season (I typically will hunt WMAs heavy when they are open during deer season, then slowly switch to private land as deer season winds down), still found coveys, they were just so small I did not shoot.



 Some of the plantations around the house have outlawed 28 guage or less because they were seeing so many injured birds during the season. Like anything else it depends who's hands it is in. You really have to be quick to hit wild birds with a second shot in 28 bore.
    The state has some really good projects planned for quail coming up. Mainly big timber cuts and smaller burn sizes. The coveys I saw on public land in ga. were tiny also but the numbers seemed to be o.k.  Fla. seems to have the best hunting overall. They are doing some massive clearcutting to be replanted in longleaf. Some of the hunting in these areas has been unbelievable. We averaged a covey an hour on public land this year and had 9 covey half days. Some days we hit them great and some time it was so-so. Overall it was a very good year.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 10, 2011)

I used to hunt some of the Kaukas' places down your way back when Rolf was alive, I think there were 3.  He was big for small bore when Quail hunting.  Not so ironically he was who exposed me to German breeds of bird dogs, though I did not get any until 10 or so years later. His propery that was given to the State had some good bird hunting back in the 90s.   

He had a very unique approach  to game management, I think he actually knew each individual deer on his property and you could only harvest the actual individual deer.  It led to some monsters, I know of one B&C non-typical he harvested (and I have seen the antlers) that scored around 200 it was huge.


----------



## Augustabowhunter (Mar 10, 2011)

I am not sure if it has been talked about but imo I believe that if you could get more deer hunters to plant stuff that will help not only the deer but the quail as well. I think this is the best place to start to improve habitat.


----------



## ABAChunter (Mar 10, 2011)

Augustabowhunter said:


> I am not sure if it has been talked about but imo I believe that if you could get more deer hunters to plant stuff that will help not only the deer but the quail as well. I think this is the best place to start to improve habitat.



This is a great article on that....
http://bootsandbriars.com/enhancing-quail-habitat-using-deer-food-plots/


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 10, 2011)

Jim P said:


> You guy's need to get off RBC back he is just putting out suggestions, and I see were  he's coming from, and I agree with him on most parts, don't the quail raisers enochulate there birds?



I think it's been a pretty healthy argument so far?


----------



## pine nut (Mar 10, 2011)

ABAChunter said:


> This is a great article on that....
> http://bootsandbriars.com/enhancing-quail-habitat-using-deer-food-plots/



Good article, thanks!  I also think this has been a good thread, and I  am encouraged that, at least, we few are talking about the problem.  I do so wish we could come up with a workable plan to get the coveys back!  I can think of no finer heritage to preserve than that of restoring the Bobwhite to its former glory in this state!  I commend all of you for a lively debate.  I am very hopeful that the escaped birds I have put out this year will be some of those that  survive to reproduce!  I did take one of them accidently this past Monday, that I know was a hold over from an earlier release this past fall.  It was wilder than the birds we put out Monday and looked to be in great shape.  The property owner has told me he has flushed birds in a small covey several times.  He has not heard quail whistling on his place in many years.  It is now a pleasing sound.
As an aside my 10 month old dog has become one of, if not the, best dogs I have ever had.  I'm a proud companion of hers!  Let us at least consider thinking outside the box with those who are!  There is wisdom in many councils!


----------



## Wingmaster870 (Mar 10, 2011)

Jim P said:


> You guy's need to get off RBC back he is just putting out suggestions, and I see were  he's coming from, and I agree with him on most parts, don't the quail raisers enochulate there birds?



nobody is on RBC's back....we all acknowledge where he is trying to head with this and appreciate his interest and enthusiasm.

if we all agreed with him 100% then this thread would be about 5 posts long.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 10, 2011)

Got the all-stars reading this thread right now.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 10, 2011)

I found a recent publication that does everything but point blank make the same argument I have made.  It is a very good article and makes no bones about the fact that the days of "normal folk" having access to wild birds with any regularity are long gone.  I remember the adds, "Dogs for sale, no birds" like that was yesterday, cause I picked up some jam up dogs for literally pennies on the dollar.  Here is the link.    

http://www.quailcoalition.org/uploads/Our_Greatest_Wildlife_Tragedy.pdf

It is a sad read, but it is a true read.  Even the article talks about how numbers make money available with game agencies, we need to greatly increase our numbers, not 2 fold, not even 10 fold but 1000 fold if we want the state to listen to us (and want enough money available towards BQI, quail hunters are the main tag buyers, or QU/QF expenditures in Ga.). Without decent access for everyone in the state to huntable bird populations (be they wild or early release) if they want to hunt, we just ain't gonna have many new hunters taking on the financial and time consuming commitment (you know,  dogs and such) of being hunters of the prince of game birds.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 10, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I found a recent publication that does everything but point blank make the same argument I have made.  It is a very good article and makes no bones about the fact that the days of "normal folk" having access to wild birds with any regularity are long gone.  I remember the adds, "Dogs for sale, no birds" like that was yesterday, cause I picked up some jam up dogs for literally pennies on the dollar.  Here is the link.
> 
> http://www.quailcoalition.org/uploads/Our_Greatest_Wildlife_Tragedy.pdf
> 
> It is a sad read, but it is a true read.  Even the article talks about how numbers make money available with game agencies, we need to greatly increase our numbers, not 2 fold, not even 10 fold but 1000 fold if we want the state to listen to us (and want enough money available towards BQI, quail hunters are the main tag buyers, or QU/QF expenditures in Ga.). Without decent access for everyone in the state to huntable bird populations (be they wild or early release) if they want to hunt, we just ain't gonna have many new hunters taking on the financial and time consuming commitment (you know,  dogs and such) of being hunters of the prince of game birds.



I just don't see how you get around the financial commitment.  Bird hunting is expensive especially if nature can't provide the birds.  And even then, quail habitat from what I have learned on here and from friends needs to be maintained, not just established.    I think people will just need to adjust their expectations to finding few wild public birds or hunting released birds.  Release birds on clearcuts is not a bad idea, I just don't want to see money dumped into releasing birds into existing wild quail habitat rather then maintaining or improving it.

Edit - I'm not saying clear cuts are not good quail habitat, but they are only huntable for a few years and are already existing so they do make some sense for a possible release program.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 10, 2011)

Nitram4891 said:


> I just don't see how you get around the financial commitment.  Bird hunting is expensive especially if nature can't provide the birds.  And even then, quail habitat from what I have learned on here and from friends needs to be maintained, not just established.    I think people will just need to adjust their expectations to finding few wild public birds or hunting released birds.  Release birds on clearcuts is not a bad idea, I just don't want to see money dumped into releasing birds into existing wild quail habitat rather then maintaining or improving it.



The financial commitment to what?  Becoming a bird hunter?  Or managing for wild birds?  Or putting out birds to hunt?

There are federal regualtions that will not let the state manage the best habitat in the state for birds on the 2 state owned properties in my neck of the woods that are the best habitat, The Endangered Species Act.  Mature, open, piney woods are just ate up with endangered species...the red cockaded woodpecker and a number of rare piney woods plants are why they won't put food plots on Silver Lake or disc for weed strips, don't believe me? Ask the quail biologist in the Albany office. Federal law mandates that they manage for those.  Now if you have ever been to S.L. you know there are wild birds (not as many as there were last year or year before last) to be found.  Here is something you may not know, this was S.L. third season as a WMA, which in large part is owned by the state (which is actually rare for large WMAs to be state owned).  Do you know what it was 5 years ago?  A release bird hunting preserve....they stocked heavily with pen raised birds and folks payed to hunt there (the last few years it became a leased preserve, before it was private hunting lease).  

As for state quail habitat, the state is not going to designate a penny for habitat restoration for quail on state MANAGED land (most WMAs are leased from paper companies or owned by some other private group other than the state) So even if they did have the funds, if the management practice conflicted with the owner's use (which quail management and timber production for profit are in huge conflict) the state can't do it.  That is why, just recently one of the bigger coastal plains WMAs in the state is only now getting some management plans that benifit quail (Chickasawhatchee) because the Nature Conservancy is the primary intrest holder of that property and they want to restore the uplands for that ol' woodpecker I have talked about, bachman's sparrow and the eastern indigo snake and create an upland buffer for one of the bigger intact wetlands left in the state. It just so happens that those plans will benifit quail, prior to now, St. Joe paper company owned it so there was no burning and timber was harvested via clear cut.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 10, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> The financial commitment to what?  Becoming a bird hunter?  Or managing for wild birds?  Or putting out birds to hunt?
> 
> There are federal regualtions that will not let the state manage the best habitat in the state for birds on the 2 state owned properties in my neck of the woods that are the best habitat, The Endangered Species Act.  Mature, open, piney woods are just ate up with endangered species...the red cockaded woodpecker and a number of rare piney woods plants are why they won't put food plots on Silver Lake or disc for weed strips, don't believe me? Ask the quail biologist in the Albany office. Federal law mandates that they manage for those.  Now if you have ever been to S.L. you know there are wild birds (not as many as there were last year or year before last) to be found.  Here is something you may not know, this was S.L. third season as a WMA, which in large part is owned by the state (which is actually rare for large WMAs to be state owned).  Do you know what it was 5 years ago?  A release bird hunting preserve....they stocked heavily with pen raised birds and folks payed to hunt there (the last few years it became a leased preserve, before it was private hunting lease).
> 
> As for state quail habitat, the state is not going to designate a penny for habitat restoration for quail on state MANAGED land (most WMAs are leased from paper companies or owned by some other private group other than the state) So even if they did have the funds, if the management practice conflicted with the owner's use (which quail management and timber production for profit are in huge conflict) the state can't do it.  That is why, just recently one of the bigger coastal plains WMAs in the state is only now getting some management plans that benifit quail (Chickasawhatchee) because the Nature Conservancy is the primary intrest holder of that property and they want to restore the uplands for that ol' woodpecker I have talked about, bachman's sparrow and the eastern indigo snake and create an upland buffer for one of the bigger intact wetlands left in the state. It just so happens that those plans will benifit quail, prior to now, St. Joe paper company owned it so there was no burning and timber was harvested via clear cut.



I'm saying I don't think the state could afford a large scale quail stocking program based on the cost of raising quail and the survival rate being very low.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 10, 2011)

I don't know how much it would cost.  I doubt very seriously it would be cost prohibative, especially if there was a "quail" stamp available, just as there is a trout stamp or a state waterfowl stamp.  Like I said in an earlier post in this thread, NY State does it with pheasant and have been doing it for almost 100 years.  Here is a link to a little bit of information on their program.  

http://www.dec.ny.gov/animals/7071.html

Most folks buy "sportsman's combos" in Georgia, so the folks that buy them, even if they don't bird hunt, would help finance the program.  Just like the folks in Waycross or Albany who buy the combos won't ever trout fish, even though they buy the stamp.

Indiana has an interesting way of doing it, they offer a weekend "put and take" hunt on a number of state properties for a fee of 15 dollars per hunter, this also is for pheasant.

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/6069.htm#game_bird

Here is how Washington State supplies its birds.

http://ravallirepublic.com/lifestyles/recreation/article_4e58bc68-e310-11df-b1bb-001cc4c03286.html

While all these examples are dealing with pheasants, the same practices can be utilized for quail.  I would imagine, based on the price for pheasant vs. quail from retail bird providers, it would be a wee bit cheaper to raise quail.  A state game farm, (which while I was researching this I learned most every state at one time or other had one) would be the way to go.  It would be cheaper to produce the birds for release than to purchase them from exsisting  operations.  

An operation on public lands like we have talked about is probably the ONLY way we are going to get any significant increase in hunter numbers and light a fire of excitement amongst large numbers of youngsters for chasing a bird dog.  Once we get the numbers of folks that claim to be bird hunters, then we have the influence with the State to insure that quail habitat is not only preserved but created where possible.  You get enough Atlanta area bird dog owners, the state might even place pressure on the Feds to allow limited timber harvest in the Chattahoochee N.F. to help with the ruffed grouse population.

Whether we like it or not, the economics of wildlife management on public lands IS  a numbers game. We have one advantage over other hunters in Georgia, historically and traditionally Bob was king and Georgia was his favorite court.  Georgia has been known as a prime destination for quail hunters since the inception and growth of hunting as a sport/leasure passtime in the US.  In other words, tradition is on our side.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 10, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> The financial commitment to what?  Becoming a bird hunter?  Or managing for wild birds?  Or putting out birds to hunt?
> 
> There are federal regualtions that will not let the state manage the best habitat in the state for birds on the 2 state owned properties in my neck of the woods that are the best habitat, The Endangered Species Act.  Mature, open, piney woods are just ate up with endangered species...the red cockaded woodpecker and a number of rare piney woods plants are why they won't put food plots on Silver Lake or disc for weed strips, don't believe me? Ask the quail biologist in the Albany office. Federal law mandates that they manage for those.  Now if you have ever been to S.L. you know there are wild birds (not as many as there were last year or year before last) to be found.  Here is something you may not know, this was S.L. third season as a WMA, which in large part is owned by the state (which is actually rare for large WMAs to be state owned).  Do you know what it was 5 years ago?  A release bird hunting preserve....they stocked heavily with pen raised birds and folks payed to hunt there (the last few years it became a leased preserve, before it was private hunting lease).
> 
> As for state quail habitat, the state is not going to designate a penny for habitat restoration for quail on state MANAGED land (most WMAs are leased from paper companies or owned by some other private group other than the state) So even if they did have the funds, if the management practice conflicted with the owner's use (which quail management and timber production for profit are in huge conflict) the state can't do it.  That is why, just recently one of the bigger coastal plains WMAs in the state is only now getting some management plans that benifit quail (Chickasawhatchee) because the Nature Conservancy is the primary intrest holder of that property and they want to restore the uplands for that ol' woodpecker I have talked about, bachman's sparrow and the eastern indigo snake and create an upland buffer for one of the bigger intact wetlands left in the state. It just so happens that those plans will benifit quail, prior to now, St. Joe paper company owned it so there was no burning and timber was harvested via clear cut.



    The RCW has turned out to be the quails best friend. For many years enviromentalist have kept woods from being logged until they started to see RCW numbers tank. Now they are opening forest floors like never before in the national forest and state forest all across the southeast because of them. I have seen tracks on public land that will be opened to a 10-20 basel area this year that will certainly help the quail. I would like to see nursery grounds set up on some of the WMA's where limited hunting would take place but manage it to max. Much like the nusery grounds in the Fla. middle grounds for fish. This would insure a healthy population somewhere on the property that birds could be relocated from.
  As to Silver Lake, I guarantee you the state would let you plant or harrow up all of the dormant food plots already in place there if you have could raise the money to do so. You can't harrow up the wiregrass as you know. It would take forever for it to come back. You can however harrow your self to death in the slash and loblolly pines where wiregrass does not exist.
     The bottom line is the state can't save the quail, Quail Forever can't save them and Q.U.[ well whoever knows if it is still alive] can't do it.It will take a grass roots effort on a local level to get anything done,and a lot of money. It would'nt take that much to get started, a few tractors and a little time to get things moving in the right direction. One of the greatest threats to our public land quail population is the current burn sizes. The state is doing the best they can with such a small budget. Rather see big burns than no burns at all.
   As to the state game bird farms, florida tried it years ago and it was a horrible failure. Spend my money on more fire breaks and smaller burn plots.


----------



## Beagle Stace (Mar 10, 2011)

RBC, You have definitely been burning some midnight oil researching your material on the release operations. I do find them quite interesting and I am not totally against if managed correctly. Very true that we need the hunter numbers and this would generate interest. I do feel these type of operations could be conducted at select WMA'S regionally and also habitat improvement. These ideas need to be pushed and presented in the forums we have. I do believe we may have found our pathfinder and tip of the spear man in you. I will support your movement. Let me know how I can help. And I do believe you have the gift of gab as we often say. I will be the first to say that I often have scratched my head at your stated opinions and deep love for sacred SW Ga. But I know you are passionate and this is what it takes to move mountains. Shift the gears RBC on this bus, open the doors, and load the seats with supporters.

Coveyrise, I do agree with your comments on the current burns conducted. I also feel the burn sizes are too big but keep in mind I am no expert. But I agree burns must be conducted and the state DNR is at least trying despite the terrible budget and limited resources.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 11, 2011)

coveyrise said:


> The RCW has turned out to be the quails best friend. For many years enviromentalist have kept woods from being logged until they started to see RCW numbers tank. Now they are opening forest floors like never before in the national forest and state forest all across the southeast because of them. I have seen tracks on public land that will be opened to a 10-20 basel area this year that will certainly help the quail. I would like to see nursery grounds set up on some of the WMA's where limited hunting would take place but manage it to max. Much like the nusery grounds in the Fla. middle grounds for fish. This would insure a healthy population somewhere on the property that birds could be relocated from.
> As to Silver Lake, I guarantee you the state would let you plant or harrow up all of the dormant food plots already in place there if you have could raise the money to do so. You can't harrow up the wiregrass as you know. It would take forever for it to come back. You can however harrow your self to death in the slash and loblolly pines where wiregrass does not exist.
> The bottom line is the state can't save the quail, Quail Forever can't save them and Q.U.[ well whoever knows if it is still alive] can't do it.It will take a grass roots effort on a local level to get anything done,and a lot of money. It would'nt take that much to get started, a few tractors and a little time to get things moving in the right direction. One of the greatest threats to our public land quail population is the current burn sizes. The state is doing the best they can with such a small budget. Rather see big burns than no burns at all.
> As to the state game bird farms, florida tried it years ago and it was a horrible failure. Spend my money on more fire breaks and smaller burn plots.



I already asked the biologist about S.L. last year when I was donating ragweed seed. Said they couldn't or wouldn't put it there.  He  said the State envisions S.L. as being completely covered in wiregrass and associated
legumes and wild flowers (as you know, if you want this plant regime, you can not turn the soil at all). The State has been harvesting seed from other parts of S.L. and Doerun and planting heavily down there, the intesive burns are apparently to encourage wire grass and rare plant growth.  We have talked about the burning method before, apparently their hands are tied.

Do you know why the game farm in Florida failed?  Apparently the one in Virginia was successful the state made it a historical sight, and it raised quail (years ago it apparently was moved to modern facility).      http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=16835

I have not been down to the new (relatively) WMA your way.  I used to hunt it before the state got it (I was one of Rolf's and Alexis' attorneys).  I also had the distinct privilage of being their guest one year to the Ga/Fla Field Trial held on Chinquapan (sp).  Is the state attempting any inovative management plan there?


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 11, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> I already asked the biologist about S.L. last year when I was donating ragweed seed. Said they couldn't or wouldn't put it there.  He  said the State envisions S.L. as being completely covered in wiregrass and associated
> legumes and wild flowers (as you know, if you want this plant regime, you can not turn the soil at all). The State has been harvesting seed from other parts of S.L. and Doerun and planting heavily down there, the intesive burns are apparently to encourage wire grass and rare plant growth.  We have talked about the burning method before, apparently their hands are tied.
> 
> Do you know why the game farm in Florida failed?  Apparently the one in Virginia was successful the state made it a historical sight, and it raised quail (years ago it apparently was moved to modern facility).      http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=16835
> ...



   I was told different about SL. Only that the wiregrass areas could not be touched. I hunted the Rivercreek property before the Kaukas owned it. T.T. Scott was the owner then. I don't think there will be any big changes to Rivercreek any time soon                                                            The state came close to buying Greenwood Plantation on the other side of the river the other day, instead they bought the land on the Altamaha River Basin. Imagine if the state would have bought Greenwood. How sweet would that have been.
     I hunt with one of the heads of the Nature Conservancy every year and am able to bend his ear about things that need to be done. I also get to hear some of the plans they have for some of these lands. There are some smaller projects planned in our area on public land that should really help.I hope they follow through on them.
    Tall Timbers has really done a lot of work on public lands in Fla. that are starting to show promise. A lot of these projects were funded by private individuals and plantations. I don't understand why anyone who cares about quail is not a memeber of Tall Timbers. Most of the articles about quail projects in Q.U. and Q.F. are written by Tall Timbers. Maybe they could help the state of Ga. in the future more if funding would permit.


----------



## Nitram4891 (Mar 11, 2011)

Beagle Stace said:


> And I do believe you have the gift of gab as we often say.



Very eloquently stated


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 11, 2011)

B.C.
   The game farm in fla. got ulcerative enteritis in the ground of the pens and wiped out the birds. They decided to abandone the project after that. Also you are so regulated with trapping on public land that it would be hard to have any success with a release project. Trapping is banned on almost all public land in the southeast. It has taken years for the state to get one permit for trapping on Di-Lane.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 11, 2011)

coveyrise said:


> B.C.
> The game farm in fla. got ulcerative enteritis in the ground of the pens and wiped out the birds. They decided to abandone the project after that. Also you are so regulated with trapping on public land that it would be hard to have any success with a release project. Trapping is banned on almost all public land in the southeast. It has taken years for the state to get one permit for trapping on Di-Lane.



From what I have read in literature produced by The Albany Quail Project/Tall Timbers, trapping is important for protecting nesting quail and their nests (a rather high ratio of nests are destroyed by depredation).  The one predator of adult quail, the ratio was so high as to be almost exclusive, was the hawk.  Hawk depredation on quail is so pervasive that I have always heard that is why quail hold for points, it is an instinctive defense against hawks.  I used to trap on plantations and I was only allowed to after the close of quail season (trapping season closes the same day) so I would have to get a special license to do it and coons, possums and skunks were the main target, the bounty paid on them was rather good (illegal to sale fur from them after season plus fur no good). Steel was always put in the ground after hunting and trapping season, nobody wanted their bird dog caught in a leghold or conibear 220.  The reason for this long disertation on trapping is to say, I don't think it would be an issue. The planted birds would not be intended to survive to nest, they would be like put and take trout, placed out for the sole purpose of being harvested. Apparently Virginia has been doing it with quail for years, at least that is the impression I got from the little item I linked.

As for trapping being banned from public land, I trapped beaver on Chickasawhatchee for St. Joe back in the late 79, 80 and early 81.  Course I was hired to by St. Joe to control beaver that were flooding their pines, they owned the land at the time.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 11, 2011)

R.B.
   They don't even allow furbearers to be killed on EL Model. I don't know why. I trapped my way through college In 79-83. We would trap during quail season. I would throw a garbage can lid over the dirt hole sets in the morning and remove them in the afternoon. Never had a dog get caught.Many a day I would check traps at daylight and make it to the big house in time to drive the hunting rig. I worked for millpond plantation then. Sold fur to Plott Hide and Fur. Made great money trapping in those days.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 11, 2011)

coveyrise said:


> R.B.
> They don't even allow furbearers to be killed on EL Model. I don't know why. I trapped my way through college In 79-83. We would trap during quail season. I would throw a garbage can lid over the dirt hole sets in the morning and remove them in the afternoon. Never had a dog get caught.Many a day I would check traps at daylight and make it to the big house in time to drive the hunting rig. I worked for millpond plantation then. Sold fur to Plott Hide and Fur. Made great money trapping in those days.



"Sold" to Plott?  More like, got taken advantage of by Plott....I was trapping in that time frame, were you in South Ga. then?  I was president of the South Ga. Tapping Assoc.(F.T.A. affiliated) then (79,80) and on the Board of the Ga. Trapping Assoc. (N.T.A. affiliated). Those were good times, 20 dollar coons, nigh on 100 dollar cats, 45 dollar foxes..... 'possums were worth a few bucks even.  I sold green furs to Plott when I didn't have time to dry my furs (as you know he was about the only game in town), if dried sent to auction and made multiples of what Plott payed. I did drive up to Griffin (where Plott was located) with a pickup loaded with frozen green beaver hides one time (literally loaded to the max).

I have been practicing law now for 20 years and haven't really trapped much at all since the market fell in the early 80s (still do a little from time to time, mainly beaver control on properties I hunt, or predator control on them) and I still get calls from folks wanting me to either predator trap or beaver trap.  A couple of years ago I was contacted by the folks that lease the aquaculture operation on Pineland Plantation (just north of Newton on 91) about otter trapping for them, I about took them up, southern otter were bringing over 100 dollars green and they were gonna pay a bounty too, during the season.  A good trapper could make a good living down here doing nuisance trapping.   Someone was telling me you could almost set the bounty prices 'cause everyone got burned with the eggs some years back so it is a trapper's market when setting the bounties. I was offered 15 dollars a coon bounty by someone last year....plus expenses.


----------



## coveyrise90 (Mar 11, 2011)

Man times have changed... I know so many people that USED to trap. Now, trappers are a rare breed. I do know one is SW Alabama. I tagged along with a couple years ago for a weekend of beaver beaver (with a little bass fishing thrown it). We had a lot fun and success. He told me that most his business were quail plantations.


Re SL.... only the existing wildlife openings may be planted or harrowed. They "plan" to increase the acreage of wildlife openings (when they finally get around to cutting the timber) but only in the pine plantations. As was already stated, they are working hard to protect the wiregrass and native groudcover. They are few openings there now and they can't even maintain those.

But, I've said it before and I'll say it again. This is the perfect opportunity for hunters like us to step and help the birds... disk these opening and create bugging areas for the chicks. If I had a tractor and harrow I would have already done it myself. But since I don't, I will GLADLY donate fuel money to anyone that will do the work.

Dave, is Greenwood a wild bird plantation? I know one thing, the pinewoods there are drop dead gorgeous!!! 

Adam


----------



## marshnole11 (Mar 13, 2011)

I spent 4 months in pennsylvania during the winter in 09 and have first hand experience with a state run pheasant release program. 

First off any type of state run pen reared game bird release is going to be geared 100% towards enhancing the actual hunting experience and not population improvement. 

I can tell you that my pheasant hunting experiences up there were more than pleasant 90% of the time. besides some run ins with a few idiots. 

They basically have state run game farms that raise birds and release them on pre selected state gamelands that have optimum habitat to support the birds for the short amount of time they do survive. usually they release around 100,000 birds across the state but it has been as much as 250,000 when the budget was quite larger. 

They release 4-5 times in the season and they give you the rough dates and how many birds will be relased on those dates. the county I was in released around 2500 birds on two different state games lands (SGL's) and it was spread out over the course of the season. 

I hunted roughly 3-4 times a week on each week they released birds. I shot my two birds almost every trip out. sometimes it would take an hour. sometimes it would take 5 hours. There wasnt a day out that I would consider an easy hunt by any means. But.. My dog got plenty of work and we both enjoyed the time afield even though these were farm raised birds. In the end it was the experience that mattered. Being a southerner for most my life I can honestly say it was one of the only positive experiences of living in the north. I knew we were going to get a shot at some birds. The dog was going to put in the hard work and be rewarded in the end. I can honestly say I dont have that feeling to often when chasing wild quail down here.

I think the release programs can be very successfull in the aspect that they create more hunting opportunities. If you look at it from that perspective. The more sucessfull hunts we have the more time and money most people are willing to commit to their hobbies. This is what keeps the money flowing into the state and into the habitat orgs.

PA also is heavily involved with a wild pheasant trap and relocate program they have going on where they trap wild pheasants in montana and relocate them onto premium habitat in PA and closely monitor the birds and strictly regulate hunting access for parts of the year. these wild pheasant release sites can only be hunting for a short time and only roosters may be harvested. so far the results are looking very promising. the birds seem to be doing well and breeding regularly. these tracts are actively managed between habitat and predator control.

I think the model PA has could be something that other states could follow with Quail. 

having a two headed approach to the problem by actively providing hunting opportunities for people to keep their interest peaked in bird hunting. 

By providing more chances to have successfull hunts this will in turn keep the support and the money flowing for habitat restoration and trying to bring back wild quail populations.


----------



## redneck_billcollector (Mar 13, 2011)

Thank you for your observations and post Marshnole, I have not hunted anything like that but I felt something with quail along those lines would get more people involved in the sport of upland bird hunting.


----------



## T Tolbert (Mar 13, 2011)

I like the "Quail Stamp" idea. Does anyone have an idea of a possible cost of a state run quail farm vs income from the stamp?

Seems that once started the progam would almost pay for itself?


----------



## Coach K (Mar 13, 2011)

coveyrise said:


> The RCW has turned out to be the quails best friend. For many years enviromentalist have kept woods from being logged until they started to see RCW numbers tank. Now they are opening forest floors like never before in the national forest and state forest all across the southeast because of them. I have seen tracks on public land that will be opened to a 10-20 basel area this year that will certainly help the quail. I would like to see nursery grounds set up on some of the WMA's where limited hunting would take place but manage it to max. Much like the nusery grounds in the Fla. middle grounds for fish. This would insure a healthy population somewhere on the property that birds could be relocated from.
> As to Silver Lake, I guarantee you the state would let you plant or harrow up all of the dormant food plots already in place there if you have could raise the money to do so. You can't harrow up the wiregrass as you know. It would take forever for it to come back. You can however harrow your self to death in the slash and loblolly pines where wiregrass does not exist.
> The bottom line is the state can't save the quail, Quail Forever can't save them and Q.U.[ well whoever knows if it is still alive] can't do it.It will take a grass roots effort on a local level to get anything done,and a lot of money. It would'nt take that much to get started, a few tractors and a little time to get things moving in the right direction. One of the greatest threats to our public land quail population is the current burn sizes. The state is doing the best they can with such a small budget. Rather see big burns than no burns at all.
> As to the state game bird farms, florida tried it years ago and it was a horrible failure. Spend my money on more fire breaks and smaller burn plots.



You hit on something here that I know works.  In KY they have "Western KY WMA", in McCrackin Co., (near Paducah, KY) (west) 
There are several tracts only of which 1/2 are open to hunting.  The tracts not open to hunting, I would call "nursery tracts".  They sustain the wild bird population base.  They run a big invitational field trial there every year around X-mas, I believe.  I ventured on to one of the "off limits to hunting" (nursery) tracts (accidentally, of course) & WOW was I getting into a lot of coveys.  Unfortunately, one or two years after that they had a devastating flood & it took a huge toll on wild quail populations in the whole WMA.  It's right on the Ohio River flood plain (just before it hooks into the Mississippi).  Never been back since, but those closed areas do work for having a sustainable "base stock" of quail.  Then the overflow spread back onto the hunting tracts again.


----------



## pine nut (Mar 13, 2011)

Coach K said:


> You hit on something here that I know works.  In KY they have "Western KY WMA", in McCrackin Co., (near Paducah, KY) (west)
> There are several tracts only of which 1/2 are open to hunting.  The tracts not open to hunting, I would call "nursery tracts".  They sustain the wild bird population base.  They run a big invitational field trial there every year around X-mas, I believe.  I ventured on to one of the "off limits to hunting" (nursery) tracts (accidentally, of course) & WOW was I getting into a lot of coveys.  Unfortunately, one or two years after that they had a devastating flood & it took a huge toll on wild quail populations in the whole WMA.  It's right on the Ohio River flood plain (just before it hooks into the Mississippi).  Never been back since, but those closed areas do work for having a sustainable "base stock" of quail.  Then the overflow spread back onto the hunting tracts again.



That sounds like a fairly common sense approach that should work.  I wonder how they keep folks out of the nursery area though.  I think there will always (unfortunately) be those that are selfish and would go out of their way to kill the last pair of quail!  Sad but true!  Still it could help and we who hunted around the nurseries would have to help police the nursery areas and report those caught in them.  I guess a good stiff penalty might be in order.   Interesting food for thought.  Who knows one of these brainstorming sessions might just resonate with the powers at be.


----------



## Coach K (Mar 14, 2011)

pine nut said:


> That sounds like a fairly common sense approach that should work.  I wonder how they keep folks out of the nursery area though.  I think there will always (unfortunately) be those that are selfish and would go out of their way to kill the last pair of quail!  Sad but true!  Still it could help and we who hunted around the nurseries would have to help police the nursery areas and report those caught in them.  I guess a good stiff penalty might be in order.   Interesting food for thought.  Who knows one of these brainstorming sessions might just resonate with the powers at be.



Yes, the DNR manager there escorted me back to the correct tract.  Luckily, he had not returned any of my phone calls (prior to me hunting there)regarding which tracts were open, so we both parted ways no worse for wear & I now knew where to hunt & had a good day finding coveys.  It was a little confusing the way they had it set up, as later in the season there are a few tracts that come open (depending on #'s) All in all, I think it is a very good option & down here it should be even better, due to the more temperate climate.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 14, 2011)

redneck_billcollector said:


> "Sold" to Plott?  More like, got taken advantage of by Plott....I was trapping in that time frame, were you in South Ga. then?  I was president of the South Ga. Tapping Assoc.(F.T.A. affiliated) then (79,80) and on the Board of the Ga. Trapping Assoc. (N.T.A. affiliated). Those were good times, 20 dollar coons, nigh on 100 dollar cats, 45 dollar foxes..... 'possums were worth a few bucks even.  I sold green furs to Plott when I didn't have time to dry my furs (as you know he was about the only game in town), if dried sent to auction and made multiples of what Plott payed. I did drive up to Griffin (where Plott was located) with a pickup loaded with frozen green beaver hides one time (literally loaded to the max).
> 
> I have been practicing law now for 20 years and haven't really trapped much at all since the market fell in the early 80s (still do a little from time to time, mainly beaver control on properties I hunt, or predator control on them) and I still get calls from folks wanting me to either predator trap or beaver trap.  A couple of years ago I was contacted by the folks that lease the aquaculture operation on Pineland Plantation (just north of Newton on 91) about otter trapping for them, I about took them up, southern otter were bringing over 100 dollars green and they were gonna pay a bounty too, during the season.  A good trapper could make a good living down here doing nuisance trapping.   Someone was telling me you could almost set the bounty prices 'cause everyone got burned with the eggs some years back so it is a trapper's market when setting the bounties. I was offered 15 dollars a coon bounty by someone last year....plus expenses.



  I was in south ga. then. I was also a member of GTA. Plott always treated me good and I also sold to a guy named Dennis at the local farmers market. I would trap morning and run predator calls at night. Shot hundreds of coons from local pecan orchards. Many weeks my checks were over a thousand dollars. Not bad for a college boy in those days. I always went to school in the summer and stayed out in the winter to trap. Those were some good times. Some of my friends got burned by a nothern fur buyer that ripped them off big time. Never trusted those mail order buyers.                                                                       I was going to go to work for a plantation out of high school as assistant manager but the owner told me to go to college and get my education first, a plantation job would always be there for me. Great advice. I went to work for a French owned oil company that owned tens of thousands of acres in Texas. Had plenty of off time to enjoy it too.


----------



## coveyrise (Mar 14, 2011)

Coach K said:


> You hit on something here that I know works.  In KY they have "Western KY WMA", in McCrackin Co., (near Paducah, KY) (west)
> There are several tracts only of which 1/2 are open to hunting.  The tracts not open to hunting, I would call "nursery tracts".  They sustain the wild bird population base.  They run a big invitational field trial there every year around X-mas, I believe.  I ventured on to one of the "off limits to hunting" (nursery) tracts (accidentally, of course) & WOW was I getting into a lot of coveys.  Unfortunately, one or two years after that they had a devastating flood & it took a huge toll on wild quail populations in the whole WMA.  It's right on the Ohio River flood plain (just before it hooks into the Mississippi).  Never been back since, but those closed areas do work for having a sustainable "base stock" of quail.  Then the overflow spread back onto the hunting tracts again.


 
     We need a place like this this to have a quail nursery for the state. They could have a lottery draw for youth only hunts. I had talked to some heads of Fla. FWC about having youth only hunts on WMA's before opening them to the general public. Give them a chance to hunt some uneducated birds first. I know of people that borrow kids to go on youth turkey hunts. 
    I might take you up on that Di-Lane hunt. They are going to trap it this year.


----------



## Coach K (Mar 15, 2011)

*Nursery*



coveyrise said:


> We need a place like this this to have a quail nursery for the state. They could have a lottery draw for youth only hunts. I had talked to some heads of Fla. FWC about having youth only hunts on WMA's before opening them to the general public. Give them a chance to hunt some uneducated birds first. I know of people that borrow kids to go on youth turkey hunts.
> I might take you up on that Di-Lane hunt. They are going to trap it this year.



Yes, & for some, that is the reason they had kids 
(So they could do all the youth hunt dates)
pm me your email if you get the chance & I will send you 
my stock letter for Di-Lane.  Plus, I want to talk to you about another place.  **Also, hoping Adam gets that Llew in IN.  It's half Royacelle, I believe, like what you have.
It's a good looking pup.


----------

