# Is Jesus the only way?



## Artfuldodger

Is Jesus the only way to attain salvation? Meaning one must believe Jesus died for their sins. 
I heard it said that before Jesus came it was faith in God. I thought the Old Testament believers gained salvation by believing that God would send his Son as their Messiah. So in a way they still believed in Jesus in the form of a promise.


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## Artfuldodger

1 John 2:23
No one who denies the Son can have the Father; whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.

2 John 1:9
Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.

John 8:19
"Where is Your Father?" they asked Him. "You do not know Me or My Father," Jesus answered. "If you knew Me, you would know My Father as well."

John 17:3
Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 1:18-20
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness. 19For what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.

Many have used this passage to say that people can know God well enough to receive punishment but not well enough to receive salvation because they "don't know Jesus."

It would appear that if one knows God then they would know Jesus or if one knows Jesus, they would know God.  

Can someone know one without the other? Maybe someone in a far away land could know God by his creation and gain salvation from Christ's atoning death from having faith in God. From this faith in God, God will have the Holy Spirit teach him of Jesus. 

Either way, Jesus is still the only way. Maybe a better question would be "must this person gain this knowledge from another person?"

If Christ atoned the sins of the world and one believes in God, doesn't he, by default, believe in Jesus? 

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.


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## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> If Christ atoned the sins of the world and one believes in God, doesn't he, by default, believe in Jesus?
> 
> John 1:1
> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.



Since you are quoting John 1:1 in support, you would first have to believe John 1:1 is translated right.

Yes, many Bible translations translate the last part of John 1:1, “The Word was God,” but many other Bible translators disagree with that translation. Some various examples:

“and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
“and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
“and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
“and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.M.P.Smith and E.J.Goodspeed.
“and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
“and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
“and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.Tomanek.
“and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
“and godlike kind was the Logos.” [Logos is Greek for “Word] Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.

Why do so many Bible translations differ in translating John 1:1? The simple answer is translators are translating according to whether they believe the Trinity doctrine or not.

The 1st part of John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word,”
The 2nd part reads, “and the Word was with God,”
The 3rd part is then rendered according to whether the translator believes the Trinity doctrine or follows the rules of grammar.

Yes, there are language experts on both sides of this controversy contradicting each other, but in reality, they are not needed. The 2nd part reads, “and the Word was with God,” meaning you have a grammar problem if you translate the 3rd part, “and the Word was God.”

Translating the third part, “and the Word was God,” would then be contradicting the 2nd part that says “the word was with god.” Everyone knows you can’t be with someone and also be them, likewise, the Word can’t be with God, and be God.

The Koine Greek language the New Testament was written in did not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’) in it. So it’s the translators job to correct bad grammar by putting ‘a’ or ‘an,’ where they should go in a sentence to make it read correctly. 

As an example, at Mark 6:49 in the King James Bible it says, “But when they saw him [Jesus] walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been ‘a’ spirit, . . . ”

This is the same type sentence structure found at John 1:1. There was no ‘a’ before the word spirit at Mark 6:49 so the translators of the King James Bible put one there so it would be grammatically correct. However, at John 1:1 where the same type of sentence structure is found the same translators refused to correct the bad grammar.

Why? They left the bad grammar because it fit the translators Trinitarian theology.

Thus, we see John 1:1 is a case of translators not fixing bad grammar because fixing it to read like one of the Bible’s above would have shown that God, and the Word, meaning God and Jesus are not the same. Thus, instead of fixing the bad grammar they let it stand because fixing it would disprove their Trinitarian theology. 

Another point ignored by Trinitarians at John 1:1, is the scripture showing Jesus had a beginning. How so? Well, Jesus is the Word, and John 1:1 says, “in the beginning was the Word,” thus showing Jesus had a beginning. 

Notice what Psalm 90:2 says in various Bibles about God;

Psalm 90:2 (ASV) Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Psalm 90:2 (CEB) Before the mountains were born, before you birthed the earth and the inhabited world— from forever in the past to forever in the future, you are God.

Psalm 90:2 (CSB) Before the mountains were born, before You gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, You are God.

Psalm 90:2 (KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

We see the Bible says God lives for eternity, meaning: 1. infinite time; duration without beginning or end. 2. eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God.

Not only does the Bible say God is eternal, it also says, God cannot die.

Habakkuk 1:12 says, “Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. . . .”

The Bible says Jesus died for us, thus, it follows he can’t be God.

Knowing who God is, is important. John 17:3 says, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

Note that our coming to know God means everlasting life. Knowing him would mean knowing if he’s a trinity of God’s or not. 	Note that this scripture says there’s the true God, and there’s the one he sent Jesus Christ, so the scripture is talking about two unique individuals.

Deuteronomy 6:4 (ASV) says, Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:

If you prefer, Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Yahweh:

The scriptures are firm in showing God is one, Deuteronomy 6:4 above even calls the one God by name.


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## apoint

Will Galen said:


> Since you are quoting John 1:1 in support, you would first have to believe John 1:1 is translated right.
> 
> Yes, many Bible translations translate the last part of John 1:1, “The Word was God,” but many other Bible translators disagree with that translation. Some various examples:
> 
> “and the word was a god.” The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text.
> “and a god was the word.” The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.
> “and the Word was a divine being.” La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.
> “and the Word was divine.” The Bible—An American Translation, by J.M.P.Smith and E.J.Goodspeed.
> “and of a divine kind was the Word.” Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.
> “and the Word was a god.” New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.
> “and the Word was a God.” The New Testament, by James L.Tomanek.
> “and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word.” Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.
> “and godlike kind was the Logos.” [Logos is Greek for “Word] Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.
> 
> Why do so many Bible translations differ in translating John 1:1? The simple answer is translators are translating according to whether they believe the Trinity doctrine or not.
> 
> The 1st part of John 1:1 says, “In the beginning was the Word,”
> The 2nd part reads, “and the Word was with God,”
> The 3rd part is then rendered according to whether the translator believes the Trinity doctrine or follows the rules of grammar.
> 
> Yes, there are language experts on both sides of this controversy contradicting each other, but in reality, they are not needed. The 2nd part reads, “and the Word was with God,” meaning you have a grammar problem if you translate the 3rd part, “and the Word was God.”
> 
> Translating the third part, “and the Word was God,” would then be contradicting the 2nd part that says “the word was with god.” Everyone knows you can’t be with someone and also be them, likewise, the Word can’t be with God, and be God.
> 
> The Koine Greek language the New Testament was written in did not have an indefinite article (‘a’ or ‘an’) in it. So it’s the translators job to correct bad grammar by putting ‘a’ or ‘an,’ where they should go in a sentence to make it read correctly.
> 
> As an example, at Mark 6:49 in the King James Bible it says, “But when they saw him [Jesus] walking upon the sea, they supposed it had been ‘a’ spirit, . . . ”
> 
> This is the same type sentence structure found at John 1:1. There was no ‘a’ before the word spirit at Mark 6:49 so the translators of the King James Bible put one there so it would be grammatically correct. However, at John 1:1 where the same type of sentence structure is found the same translators refused to correct the bad grammar.
> 
> Why? They left the bad grammar because it fit the translators Trinitarian theology.
> 
> Thus, we see John 1:1 is a case of translators not fixing bad grammar because fixing it to read like one of the Bible’s above would have shown that God, and the Word, meaning God and Jesus are not the same. Thus, instead of fixing the bad grammar they let it stand because fixing it would disprove their Trinitarian theology.
> 
> Another point ignored by Trinitarians at John 1:1, is the scripture showing Jesus had a beginning. How so? Well, Jesus is the Word, and John 1:1 says, “in the beginning was the Word,” thus showing Jesus had a beginning.
> 
> Notice what Psalm 90:2 says in various Bibles about God;
> 
> Psalm 90:2 (ASV) Before the mountains were brought forth, Or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, Even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
> 
> Psalm 90:2 (CEB) Before the mountains were born, before you birthed the earth and the inhabited world— from forever in the past to forever in the future, you are God.
> 
> Psalm 90:2 (CSB) Before the mountains were born, before You gave birth to the earth and the world, from eternity to eternity, You are God.
> 
> Psalm 90:2 (KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
> 
> We see the Bible says God lives for eternity, meaning: 1. infinite time; duration without beginning or end. 2. eternal existence, especially as contrasted with mortal life: the eternity of God.
> 
> Not only does the Bible say God is eternal, it also says, God cannot die.
> 
> Habakkuk 1:12 says, “Are you not from everlasting, O Jehovah? O my God, my Holy One, you do not die. . . .”
> 
> The Bible says Jesus died for us, thus, it follows he can’t be God.
> 
> Knowing who God is, is important. John 17:3 says, “This means everlasting life, their coming to know you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
> 
> Note that our coming to know God means everlasting life. Knowing him would mean knowing if he’s a trinity of God’s or not. 	Note that this scripture says there’s the true God, and there’s the one he sent Jesus Christ, so the scripture is talking about two unique individuals.
> 
> Deuteronomy 6:4 (ASV) says, Hear, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah:
> 
> If you prefer, Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God is one Yahweh:
> 
> The scriptures are firm in showing God is one, Deuteronomy 6:4 above even calls the one God by name.



What ever happened to simple questions and straight answers?
 By the time ya read these lengthy  writings no way can you give a straight answer.
   In short, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and the WORD is one person. And yes He is the only God and The Only Salvation today, yesterday and tomorrow. Jesus himself said He was, I AM


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## ambush80

apoint said:


> What ever happened to simple questions and straight answers?
> By the time ya read these lengthy  writings no way can you give a straight answer.
> In short, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and the WORD is one person. And yes He is the only God and The Only Salvation today, yesterday and tomorrow. Jesus himself said He was, I AM




Yeah.  All those pesky words...and ideas.  That's why the writers of the Bible said not to trust your carnal mind.


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## apoint

ambush80 said:


> Yeah.  All those pesky words...and ideas.  That's why the writers of the Bible said not to trust your carnal mind.



Too true. A lot of very intellectual people are not believers because they cant rationalize every little written detail. God said, His ways are not our ways.


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## ambush80

apoint said:


> Too true. A lot of very intellectual people are not believers because they cant rationalize every little written detail. God said, His ways are not our ways.



Luke 18:17 ESV / 

Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”

Matthew 18:3 ESV / 

And said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Amen.


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## apoint

ambush80 said:


> Luke 18:17 ESV /
> 
> Truly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.”
> 
> Matthew 18:3 ESV /
> 
> And said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> Amen.



As a loving Father with His child is unconditional love with faith. Also known as personal relationship and true disciple. Knowing you know, but having the weakness of being human and failing the creator where only His daily forgiveness is enough. AMEN


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## Will Galen

apoint said:


> What ever happened to simple questions and straight answers?



The Bible wasn’t written to be understood unless one applies themself to do so. Information on a given subject isn’t always in one place, it can be scattered over 66 books.

Proverbs 2:1-5 says,  _My son, if you accept my sayings
And treasure up my commandments,
2By making your ear attentive to wisdom
And inclining your heart to discernment;
3Moreover, if you call out for understanding
And raise your voice for discernment;
4If you keep seeking for it as for silver,
And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures;
5Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah,
And you will find the knowledge of God._

Note verse 4 where it says that you have to search for understanding like it’s a hidden treasure. How hard would you search for a hidden treasure if you knew one was buried in your backyard? That's how hard God expects us to search for answers in his word the Bible. Note also the last verse shows you can find it.




> By the time ya read these lengthy writings no way can you give a straight answer.



That, would of course, depend on the one reading.



> In short, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit and the WORD is one person. And yes He is the only God and The Only Salvation today, yesterday and tomorrow. Jesus himself said He was, I AM



Not everyone believes the Trinity doctrine, even if that is what their church teaches. As for I AM, it's not a title for Jesus, it’s the result of a bad translation.

*(John 8:58)*
The New King James Bible, as well as other Bible translations, render John 8:58 this way, “Jesus said to them, "’Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."’

Thus, Trinitarians assert that at John 8:58 Jesus was known by the title, “I AM.” They claim this means he was Jehovah of the Old Testament where Exodus 3:14 says of God, “I AM THAT I AM.” 

However, in looking into it, we find that in both renderings, John 8 58, and Exodus 3:14, the context of the scripture is ignored and rendered the way they are to support the Trinity Doctrine.

Let’s go first to the scripture at John 8:58 where Trinitarians claim Jesus is giving himself the title of I AM. 

John 8:58 (NIV) Reading in context; “56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57 “You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!” 58 “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 

Note that the (NIV), New International Version Bible, doesn’t capitalize the words, “I am.” Note too that Jesus wasn’t giving himself a title, he was answering a question about his age. Other Bible translations thus render John 8:58 differently. Some examples;

“I was alive before Abraham was born!” The Simple English Bible.
“From before Abraham was, I have been.” The New Testament, by G.R.Noyes.
“Before Abraham was born, I was already the one that I am.” Das Neue Testament, by Jörg Zink.
 “I existed before Abraham was born!” An American Translation, by J. M. P.Smith and E.J.Goodspeed.

Which translations answer the question the Jews asked Jesus? The renderings that show Jesus was answering the question about his age, or the ones that have Jesus giving himself the title, ‘I AM?’ 

It’s not logical that Jesus would tell people he exists. He’s standing in front of them talking to them. They know he exists, they see him and hear him. 

The question the Jews asked had to do with age, not identity. Thus Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, not the fact that he existed. Thus, we see multiple Bible translations correctly render this as Jesus saying he was alive before Abraham was born, thus answering the question about his age, not giving himself a title.

*Exodus 3:14*
Exodus the 3rd chapter gives the account of Moses seeing a burning bush that doesn’t stop burning, so he goes to investigate. There he meets an angel who represents God. They have a conversation where God, though the angel, tells Moses at Exodus 3:10, “Now come, I will send you to Pharaoh, and you will bring my people the Israelites out of Egypt. Again let’s read this in context at Exodus 3:13-15.

Exodus 3:13-15 (ASV) American Standard Verison says; 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? What shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. 15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, Jehovah, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name forever, and this is my memorial unto all generations. 

What we need to understand here is what God said in verse 14, and why he said it. So let’s go to the Complete Jewish Bible and read verse 14 from it.

Exodus 3:14 (CJB), God said to Moshe, "Ehyeh Asher Ehyeh [I am/will be what I am/will be]," and added, "Here is what to say to the people of Isra'el: 'Ehyeh [I Am or I Will Be] has sent me to you.'" 

We see in verse 14, God’s reply in Hebrew was: Ê¼Eh·yehÊ¹ Ê¼AsherÊ¹ Ê¼Eh·yehÊ¹, meaning (I am that I am) or (I will be what I will be)

It is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yahÊ¹, from which the word Ê¼Eh·yehÊ¹ is drawn, does not simply mean “to exist,” or “to be,” which is the choice of Trinitarian translators. It can also have other meanings. 

Strong's Hebrew Lexicon say’s, “Hayah,” can mean:
1] to exist, 
2] to be,  
3] to become, 
4] to come to pass.

Many Bible translations choose to use a rendering that means number two, “to be,” some even rendering it in capitals as if it were a title, “I AM THAT I AM.” But what would God proclaiming his existence have to do with the question that Moses asked?

J. B. Rotherham’s translation renders this verse: “I Will ‘Become’ whatsoever I please.”

Another authority on Biblical Hebrew explains the phrase this way: “Whatever the situation or need . . . God will ‘become’ the solution to that need.” Thus, we see that “to become,” would be the correct rendering because it fits the context.

God answered Moses question first by saying he would become anything needed to fulfill his promises to the Israelites, and then he gave his personal name Jehovah, a name well known to the Israelites. 

Thus of the four choices of meanings for, “Hayah,” number 3, “to become,” is the only meaning that fits the context of the question Moses asked.

Of relevance is that the name Jehovah comes from the Hebrew verb ha·yahÊ¹ that means “to become,” thus a number of scholars suggest that the name Jehovah means, “He Causes to Become.” This definition fits our Creator Jehovah. He caused the whole universe, and all life to come into existence. Thus, he bears an impressive array of titles, such as Creator, Father, Sovereign Lord, Shepherd, Jehovah of armies, Hearer of prayer, Judge, Grand Instructor, Repurchaser. He has caused himself to become all of these and more in order to carry out his purposes.

Thus God telling Moses to say, ‘I Will Become has sent me to you,’ makes sense.

Again, God answered Moses question first by saying in verse 14, he would ‘become’ anything needed to fulfill his promises to the Israelites, and then he answered Moses question directly in verse 15 by saying his name was Jehovah.

What happened? To the once-enslaved Israelites, Jehovah ‘became’ a Deliverer, a Protector, a Guide, and a Provider who satisfied all their material and spiritual needs.

We see by considering the context of John 8:59, and Exodus 3:14, that neither Jesus or Jehovah were giving themselves titles. Rather they were answering questions, both giving information about themselves.


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## hobbs27

Will Galen ...Is there a way other than Jesus? A simple yes or no would be appreciated;-)


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## 4HAND

hobbs27 said:


> Will Galen ...Is there a way other than Jesus? A simple yes or no would be appreciated;-)



I'll take this one, No. I believe that Jesus Christ is the only way.


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## formula1

*Re:*

I'm in the no one else but Jesus column!

Acts 4:12
 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.


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## RH Clark

formula1 said:


> I'm in the no one else but Jesus column!
> 
> Acts 4:12
> 11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.



I too believe this, yet I don't think that you would have to call him Jesus or even have knowledge of the scriptures if you were honestly seeking God and trusting in him for salvation. I'm talking here about the God of the Bible, with the same character, not some God you made up because he would approve of your agenda. I think it is the honest heart that matters more than the head knowledge.


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## Artfuldodger

If one was seeking God with no knowledge of Jesus, would God show them Jesus?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> If one was seeking God with no knowledge of Jesus, would God show them Jesus?



The Holy Spirit shows you Jesus before you are able to seek Him.
That's what motivates you to do it.


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## Artfuldodger

That's one way to explain how some from a whole world condemned by sin can receive salvation without ever hearing the Gospel.
If all are condemn by sin then why can't all seek salvation in this same manner?


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## SLUGGER

I'm with 4HAND. Jesus is the only way. 
John 14:6 
"Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
.


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## gordon 2

Art, do people (individuals) in cultures foreign to the fall account in Genesis, know they are in need of salvation?


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## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Art, do people (individuals) in cultures foreign to the fall account in Genesis, know they are in need of salvation?



"foreign to the fall account" 

Meaning they were already here or that they have never heard of the fall account? If it's the latter then that's what I'm interested in. If one has never heard of the fall account, how do they know they need salvation?
Do they wake up one morning, look out over the sea or mountains and say "wow, God(the only true God), made all of this. We are without excuse. We must believe in this one true God."

Then at that point God sends his Holy Spirit to show them Jesus and their need for salvation. But maybe if they know God, they also know Jesus. Can you know one without the other? Was everyone saved in the Old Testament aware that they needed salvation from the fall? Did they know Jesus by knowing God? 

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Is anyone ever without hope and without God? Even the ones who have never heard of the fall account?


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## Artfuldodger

Could the Old Testament folks have just believed in God and gained salvation from that fact? Sure the Jews knew of the promise of Jesus but what about the Gentiles? Were they ever without hope and strangers to the promise? 
Does every Gentile on an individual basis now have hope? I'm trying to see how salvation was presented to the Gentile world before and after Christ as it relates to how they did then and do now, become adopted Jews and heirs to the Kingdom.

Considering again that Jesus is the only way.


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## Artfuldodger

Considering that Jesus is the only way, what does that mean? Especially to every Gentile who has never heard of the fall or a need because of it. 
Did Jesus' death cover their sins too? Was his death enough even if they only know God? Can they know Jesus by knowing only God?

Must one actually believe Jesus died for their sins because I don't see where a lot of people have been given that opportunity.


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## Artfuldodger

Considering that Jesus is the only way and the Trinity concept, isn't know God, knowing Jesus? At least for the Gentiles maybe. 

The Jews knew God but didn't believe in Jesus. Does it make a difference if one knows and doesn't accept the belief in Jesus vs one who only knows Jesus by knowing God?

Then you take someone like a Hindu. He is blinded from believing in Jesus by his own indoctrination. Yet he is without excuse. Considering his indoctrination, does he still have a choice? Perhaps the Holy Spirit can lead one of them to God through Jesus. Otherwise, I don't see much hope for the Hindu much less the even more isolated Gentile world.

If world means "World." Whole world Gentiles, local Gentiles, salvation to the Christian world, whosoever?


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## hobbs27

Art, it makes a difference. Jesus is the only way to the Father...to eternal life.

There's not a soul in heaven that didn't get there through Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Art, it makes a difference. Jesus is the only way to the Father...to eternal life.
> 
> There's not a soul in heaven that didn't get there through Jesus.



Yes, through Jesus. His life, physical death, and resurrection.

"There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

Jesus is the only way but what exactly does that mean to all of the dead and living Gentiles of the world? How did they or do they gain salvation from Jesus being the only way?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes, through Jesus. His life, physical death, and resurrection.
> 
> "There is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."
> 
> Jesus is the only way but what exactly does that mean to all of the dead and living Gentiles of the world? How did they or do they gain salvation from Jesus being the only way?



Before the cross? Remember Job knew his Redeemer lived?  It was faith and obedience to the law which pointed to Jesus.. but they still didn't have eternal life. They went to the grave to await the last days of the old Covenant  age so they could  be raised.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Before the cross? Remember Job knew his Redeemer lived?  It was faith and obedience to the law which pointed to Jesus.. but they still didn't have eternal life. They went to the grave to await the last days of the old Covenant  age so they could  be raised.



I wold think Job's lineage would have him in the loop of a close knowledge of God. Was faith and obedience in the Law the same as in Jesus? Jesus became the Law so by believing in the Law, they knew Jesus? Law equals Jesus? Job was before the Law of Moses but he still had faith and obedience in God and some type of law/commandments.
Is that the connection in the Old Testament?  Law keepers were Jesus believers by the fact that Jesus fulfilled the Law?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> Before the cross? Remember Job knew his Redeemer lived?  It was faith and obedience to the law which pointed to Jesus.. but they still didn't have eternal life. They went to the grave to await the last days of the old Covenant  age so they could  be raised.



How did those who were far away from the flood that perhaps had lost their knowledge as passed down from generation to generation to  eventually gain that forgotten knowledge of God and Law(Jesus)?

Even if descended from the flood through Noah's offspring and venturing away from the Middle East to eventually lose the once gained knowledge of God?
At some point one must eventually gain the knowledge lost by their ancestors of God and his Law(Jesus). How did one do that?


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> How did those who were far away from the flood that perhaps had lost their knowledge as passed down from generation to generation to  eventually gain that forgotten knowledge of God and Law(Jesus)?
> 
> 
> 
> Even if descended from the flood through Noah's offspring and venturing away from the Middle East to eventually lose the once gained knowledge of God?
> At some point one must eventually gain the knowledge lost by their ancestors of God and his Law(Jesus). How did one do that?



We aren't told in scripture.


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## Day trip

Yes, Jesus is the way, however "Jesus" is not the narrow minded, self gratifying concept that most people consider as a basis of religion.  A part of Jesus is truth in this concept of being "the way".  Just a vague concept until you empty yourself of all preconceived notions and accept the ambiguity as such until you gain enough wisdom to speculate on the subject. 
Discover truth and you will discover Jesus.  Discover Jesus and you will discover truth and so much more.


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## Artfuldodger

Day trip said:


> Yes, Jesus is the way, however "Jesus" is not the narrow minded, self gratifying concept that most people consider as a basis of religion.  A part of Jesus is truth in this concept of being "the way".  Just a vague concept until you empty yourself of all preconceived notions and accept the ambiguity as such until you gain enough wisdom to speculate on the subject.
> Discover truth and you will discover Jesus.  Discover Jesus and you will discover truth and so much more.



How does one discover Jesus if he's never heard the truth? How does one discover the truth if he's never heard of Jesus?


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> We aren't told in scripture.



But we are told that Jesus died for the whole world. That his death covered all sin and destroyed death.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> But we are told that Jesus died for the whole world. That his death covered all sin and destroyed death.



It destroyed Covenental death.. sometimes  referred to as spiritual death. 
  If you were in covenant with God ( Israelites) then you had sin and death on you as you were in Adam.

To be In Christ means in the new Covenant, where your sin is covered ..no sin..no death..eternal life.

 It's all about God's people.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> It destroyed Covenental death.. sometimes  referred to as spiritual death.
> If you were in covenant with God ( Israelites) then you had sin and death on you as you were in Adam.
> 
> To be In Christ means in the new Covenant, where your sin is covered ..no sin..no death..eternal life.
> 
> It's all about God's people.



What about all of the other people who weren't in covenant with God, didn't Jesus die for their sins too? How did Gentiles gain the knowledge to become God's people before the Gospel was spread or even offered  to the Gentile nations of the whole world? Was every Gentile adopted into the nation of Israel when Christ died?  

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Romans 11:15
For since their rejection meant that God offered salvation to the rest of the world, their acceptance will be even more wonderful. It will be life for those who were dead!


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## hobbs27

In those days, they were seeing miracles and receiving the Holy Spirit. By witnessing the tongues, the healings, etc, they were believing and becoming witnesses to others.

 Of the ones the Gospel didn't reach? I don't know, Paul said the Gospel had gone out to the whole world, but we know this was his understanding of the whole world.

 Art, I think you're asking a question that is not answered by scripture, let us pray about it , that you may get comforted with an answer.


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## 1988USMC

The evidence of God and His creation is evident in everything we see. Jesus Christ died on the cross in order to give us a path to forgiveness that we sure don't deserve.

The word of God says it, I believe it, end of story for me!


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## Artfuldodger

It's the end of the story for us because we have the story. I wish scripture did tell us how the rest of the world will gain their salvation from a fair and loving God. 

Otherwise the Election way looks even more fair and just than the Free Will way. Either way thank goodness it's not up to us as we(man) has failed miserably in spreading the Gospel. Even when we do we can't open the eyes of Pagans who have been indoctrinated a lifetime into their own religion.

If God desires all to be saved then we must let God save all he desires. Remembering that he is a loving and fair God. That he is just. He must at least let all that he desires have a choice.

We argue over which is the fair and just way for God to bring man to salvation as if one way if more just than the other when we really don't know ourselves if it's not in the Scripture.


----------



## Day trip

Artfuldodger said:


> How does one discover Jesus if he's never heard the truth? How does one discover the truth if he's never heard of Jesus?



If you're sincere and not being rhetorical then be quiet.  The answer to your question is to stop asking questions and be quiet.


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## JimD

Art,

Just like what has been said a couple of times, your answer does not lie in religion, but in prayer. In getting quiet and Listening....be still and KNOW I am God. I know what I believe, but you have to figure these questions out for yourself.


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## Artfuldodger

I think that I have made my point. Jesus is the only way. Beyond that we don't know how a just and loving God saves whom he will save. 
If scripture doesn't tell us then the just and loving God will save whom he will save. We argue that a just and loving God will give everyone a choice or that he will send his Spirit to whom he will send his Spirit. Arguing that one way is fair and the other is not yet scripture doesn't tell us. 

We don't even know if Gentiles were without hope and without God before Christ died yet we argue that they still had a path to salvation. 

Either Christ died for all or he didn't. This is a very big part of Christianity and we as Christians don't even know what that means. I've been praying with no answers. Maybe I am becoming too religious. I want God to at least give everyone a chance. Perhaps he does in a way that I can't comprehend. 

Should I just let the mystery be? If it get's too deep then just quit trying to look for answers?  I can most assuredly tell you that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Beyond that, I don't know.


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## Artfuldodger




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## Artfuldodger

Romans 5:18-19
18Therefore, just as one trespass brought condemnation for all men, so also one act of righteousness brought justification and life for all men.  19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.…


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> I think that I have made my point. Jesus is the only way. Beyond that we don't know how a just and loving God saves whom he will save.
> If scripture doesn't tell us then the just and loving God will save whom he will save. We argue that a just and loving God will give everyone a choice or that he will send his Spirit to whom he will send his Spirit. Arguing that one way is fair and the other is not yet scripture doesn't tell us.
> 
> We don't even know if Gentiles were without hope and without God before Christ died yet we argue that they still had a path to salvation.
> 
> Either Christ died for all or he didn't. This is a very big part of Christianity and we as Christians don't even know what that means. I've been praying with no answers. Maybe I am becoming too religious. I want God to at least give everyone a chance. Perhaps he does in a way that I can't comprehend.
> 
> Should I just let the mystery be? If it get's too deep then just quit trying to look for answers?  I can most assuredly tell you that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Beyond that, I don't know.



 It is my most heartfelt conviction that God so loved the world, meaning all the world, that he gave his only son, so that whosoever believeth in him, meaning absolutely anyone who would accept this gift, would not perish but have everlasting life. 


I can most assuredly tell you that God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Beyond that, I don't know.[/QUOTE]

When you say this, you need to know that the thought of the author wasn't that God will have mercy on some but not on others. The thought was amazement that God would have such amazing mercy simply because of his nature. It was more like "WOW, what an amazing God who will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, even though I can't comprehend why or how he can!"


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## hummerpoo

Romans 9:

10 And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, 12 it was said to her, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” 16 So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.


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## Artfuldodger

Romans 11:30-33
30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.  32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all.33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!


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## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> Is Jesus the only way to attain salvation? Meaning one must believe Jesus died for their sins.



Yes. The apostle Peter, filled with holy spirit, told the Jewish rulers concerning Christ Jesus, (Acts 4:12) “Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.”

However, down though history some have never heard of Jesus, so of course, they couldn’t know Jesus died for their sins. What about such people?

Jesus speaking of himself says at;

(John 5:28-29) (NWT) 28Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.

Note that it is . . . all those in the “memorial tombs” [Greek “mnemeiois”] that Jesus’ resurrects. You should know that most Bible translations leave out the word memorial in this verse and just translate it, “tombs” or “graves,” which is okay, but makes the verse harder to understand because memorial is an important distinction. It shows that not everyone will be resurrected,  only those in the memorial tombs, meaning in God’s memory.

To show that the word ‘memorial’ is in the original Greek language lets go to John 5:28 in the Greek interlinear at  http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Greek_Index.htm

Interlinear Bibles have the same text in various languages set in alternate lines. The one above is a Greek-English interlinear.

John 5:28 in the original Greek language has 17 words that say, “Me - thaumazet - touto - hoti - erchetri - hora - en -he - pantes - hoi - en - tois - mnemeiois - akousontai - tes - phones - autou - . . .”

Underneath the Greek Language is the English translation. It reads; “No - [be-marveling-at] - this - that - [is-coming] - hour - in - which - all - [the-ones] - in - the - [memorial-vaults] - [shall-be-hearing] - [of-the] - sound - [of-him]”

Note that the 13th word in Greek is “mnemeiois” and in English means “memorial vaults.” Memorial in English has to do with preserving the memory of a person or thing.

So when Jesus said all those in the memorial tombs would come out, he didn’t mean everyone that ever lived would come out, just all those preserved in God’s memory. Some people are not going to be resurrected because of what they have done. For example, Adam and Eve, Cain.

Now let’s read the 2nd half of John 5:29 out of GOD'S WORD® Translation of the Bible, because it seems to me easier to understand. 

It says, “Those who have done good will come back to life and live. But those who have done evil will come back to life and will be judged.”

Why will their come back to life and then be judged?
Romans 6:7,23 says, 7"For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.” “23 The wages sin pays is death.”

When Jesus resurrects people, it means they have been acquitted from their prior sins. Thus, those who have done good and been resurrected would include, Noah, Moses, Abraham, the prophets, etc. 

Of course, they will have never heard of Jesus, so they will have to put faith in Jesus, but that should prove no problem for them.

Those who come back to life but have done evil will also include all those who had never heard of Christ Jesus, etc. They will come back to life and be judged on what they do now that they are alive again. 

It’s during Jesus’ 1,000-year reign that the resurrection takes place. So they will be judged by what they do during his reign. If they do good things and put faith in Jesus they will continue to live. If they continue doing bad, sometime during Jesus’ reign it will be decided they are incorrigible and be put to death. 

So to answer your questions, “Is Jesus the only way to attain salvation?” Meaning one must believe Jesus died for their sins. The answer is yes, for everyone.

Good Day!


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## Artfuldodger

If you are good, you will live forever, if you are bad, you die when you die.

Good meaning your sins have been atoned.


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## Artfuldodger

Hey Will Galen, what about the sinners that have died before ya'll reached them? Is their blood on your hands? Not trying to be harsh, just trying to understand the JW's views on those ya'll or us didn't reach.


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## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> Hey Will Galen, what about the sinners that have died before ya'll reached them? Is their blood on your hands? Not trying to be harsh, just trying to understand the JW's views on those ya'll or us didn't reach.



Your question doesn't really make sense to me. Why should someone's blood be on my hands if they died before I reached them? That's like blaming the death of someone on an ambulance crew because they died before the ambulance arrived.


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## Artfuldodger

Not you personally but before you. The true children of God who were alive before you? 
Is salvation dependent upon men reaching the lost?


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## Will Galen

Artfuldodger said:


> If you are good, you will live forever, if you are bad, you die when you die.
> 
> Good meaning your sins have been atoned.



I'm not sure we are on the same page. I think you might be simplifying things too much.


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## Artfuldodger

It's very simple. Without salvation one will surely die. Salvation is from this death.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Good meaning your sins have been atoned.



Atonement means covering, not removal. Like what the children of Israel did year after year at the temple with the bulls and goats and stuff.  A picture of the true to come.

Funny how many believers don't believe their sins are removed in Christ; they'll hit the communion alter and act like Christ is dying for their current floundering faith and soulish condition all over again.  The bread and the wine, if it's anything, is a celebration of a heart made new, of our human spirit in communion with His spirit, of the new creation He did with no act of our own.  

That's salvation.

Heb 10:14  For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

Heb 10:18  Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.  (it is finished!)


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## gordon 2

Jesus has always been the only way, even before Christianity, and before the Hebrews were brought out of captivity, and long before that....

I take it that Jesus is not only the Savoir of the Gentiles, but that he ever was the agent of God's grace, with Adam and Eve and after them....

Jesus is not only the son of Mary, and a Gallilean, he is God.


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## tell sackett

Artfuldodger said:


> Is Jesus the only way to attain salvation?



Yes


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## gordon 2

StriperAddict said:


> Atonement means covering, not removal. Like what the children of Israel did year after year at the temple with the bulls and goats and stuff.  A picture of the true to come.
> 
> Funny how many believers don't believe their sins are [U]removed[/U] in Christ; they'll hit the communion alter and act like Christ is dying for their current floundering faith and soulish condition all over again.  The bread and the wine, if it's anything, is a celebration of a heart made new, of our human spirit in communion with His spirit, of the new creation He did with no act of our own.
> 
> That's salvation.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Heb 10:14  For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
> 
> Heb 10:18  Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.  (it is finished!)




I have never met Christians who believe as you state. I have heard your statement many times as a stereo type by people who have never thought of what they are saying, but to follow another's misunderstanding or that they carry an old bromide as if it was devine truth, unaware. 

The communion alter might be hit, but I have never experienced it in the motives of others or mine as you say-- unless they were ignorant and naive of the sacrifice Jesus made as the Lamb-- and I'll admit some do exist.

Personally  part of my Lord's sacrifice is cause for feast in worship, where a portion is shared with the poor in charity and thus I am fed by God in reality as when the meats of the sacrificial lambs and beasts were given to the poor, but also spiritual food in God sharing his heart, his love, his example of justice in the Charity of his Son, into my heart as scripture demands of the Savoir's ministry to me and to the world.

There is no issue for me or anyone else I know that Jesus  dies for my sins again and again. He died once and that was  enough. Jesus is the last lamb sacrifice and is not repeated, cannot be repeated,  man having need of only it. This is an issue with the ignorant and with those who have doubt in God Himself--that He is who He says He is, and does as He says He does. God said I will feed you in your mouth and I will teach your hearts.

As for me, God puts his food in my mouth for real. And that food is himself as Jesus Lamb.  I go to His feast in joy as being ever poor in spirit, meek before such Love as is God's. And though like others I might sin in a minute from now, I do not run to the alters to be born again, again. I died once. I live in Him. I feast on the food he provides me--real food. And I hope for the day when all mankind will know God's wisdom--real wisdom.

Sometimes we fight ourselves, part of us believing that another part of us doubts, but unwilling to limit this confrontation as within ourselves or to mask it entirely as not our personal conflict, we reflect it on some other entity as if it was surely there. But it is not!

 It is said that Luther in his hiding place, in his famous exile post his declarations against Rome, was in conflict with the devil who appeared to him to such an extent that he shot his inkwell against  this enemy's shadow and onto his cell's wall. It is said to still be visible today. And equally visible today is the putting-tossing forth of erroneous motives, erroneous, bromides by Christians on why Christians hit the alter.

God bless bros...


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## Artfuldodger

I guess atone isn't the correct word. I'll go with removed.
Atonement is Old Testament.


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## RH Clark

Artfuldodger said:


> I guess atone isn't the correct word. I'll go with removed.
> Atonement is Old Testament.



The correct word for us is remission. It basically means,"to sin away" so removed is fine with me.


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## aj.hiner

hobbs27 said:


> Art, it makes a difference. Jesus is the only way to the Father...to eternal life.
> 
> There's not a soul in heaven that didn't get there through Jesus.


Did all the people before jesus not go to heaven?


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## hobbs27

aj.hiner said:


> Did all the people before jesus not go to heaven?



No. They went to Sheol/Hades to await the atonement.


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## Artfuldodger

Did they have to believe Jesus was the only way or was a belief in God enough?


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Did they have to believe Jesus was the only way or was a belief in God enough?



John 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> No. They went to Sheol/Hades to await the atonement.



Sheol was nothing more than the grave.A place for dead physical bodies.

Upon death,the spirit goes back to God who made it.
Always has,always will.

Ecclesiastes 12:7

7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.


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## Artfuldodger

John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 

Couldn't this mean that it took the death of Jesus to atone our sins and in that way Jesus is the only way?

Before he actually died, believers believed God promised them a way to salvation. They believed in Jesus by believing in the promise. 

Jesus is the only way but back then they didn't know what the way was other than as a promise.


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## Artfuldodger

Has faith always been based on progressive revelation? Each of us judged on what revelation we have been given. 
Grace given by how we react to the revelation we have been given? Saved by grace through faith of a promise not yet revealed using Abraham as an example.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> Sheol was nothing more than the grave.A place for dead physical bodies.
> 
> Upon death,the spirit goes back to God who made it.
> Always has,always will.
> 
> Ecclesiastes 12:7
> 
> 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.



1peter 3 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> John 14:6
> 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
> 
> Couldn't this mean that it took the death of Jesus to atone our sins and in that way Jesus is the only way?
> 
> Before he actually died, believers believed God promised them a way to salvation. They believed in Jesus by believing in the promise.
> 
> Jesus is the only way but back then they didn't know what the way was other than as a promise.



They knew redemption was coming. They trusted that their redeemer would come and make atonement for their imputed sin, so the veil would be lifted and they could be in the presence of God.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> Has faith always been based on progressive revelation? Each of us judged on what revelation we have been given.
> Grace given by how we react to the revelation we have been given? Saved by grace through faith of a promise not yet revealed using Abraham as an example.



Faith is given as a gift from God to His people.It is not based on anything we do.It is based solely on God's eternal purpose before the world began.


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## Artfuldodger

Faith is given as a gift would be the same thing as individual revelation. 
Regardless of how we view this gift, it is a special revelation.

It still took the death of Jesus to atone sin. Jesus is still the only way.

Could we say salvation is two parts? The death of Jesus and a special revelation?


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## welderguy

hobbs27 said:


> 1peter 3 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,



This is speaking of the preaching of Noah.
Notice the remaining context of the chapter.


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## hobbs27

welderguy said:


> This is speaking of the preaching of Noah.
> Notice the remaining context of the chapter.



He that never changes his opinions, never corrects his mistakes and will never be the wiser on the morrow than he is today.
    Tryon Edwards.


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## Artfuldodger

He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.

How does one get that the preaching was "through Noah?"

Regardless Jesus was put to death in body but made alive in the spirit. His spirit went somewhere to preach.


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## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison.
> 
> How does on get that the preaching was "through Noah?"
> 
> Regardless Jesus was put to death in body but made alive in the spirit. His spirit went somewhere to preach.



The scriptures tell us exactly where Jesus' spirit went when He died.("Father into Thy hands I commend my spirit.")

And they also tell us exactly where His body went.(the new tomb of Joseph of Arimathea)....which then resurrected the third day,being reunited with His spirit....which,both,remaining on earth for another 40 days,then ascended into heaven to sit down at the right hand of the Father.

So, during this timeframe,when was this preaching done?


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## Artfuldodger

What about when Jesus said "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father?"

Peter said his spirit went to preach after he died a physical death. 

When Jesus said "Father into Thy hands I commend my spirit," this could mean that he was entrusting his spirit to God, not returning to Heaven at that moment.


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## hobbs27

Disclaimer: I know nothing of this author nor the website I got this. I tried to just leave a link, but the address has the he11 word in it so it wouldnt work.
 I only agree with 95% of what is below, knowing nothing else of the author. Scripture is provided to back up statements.

What Is Death?

First of all, what exactly is death? Death is separation, a dividing of things that ought to be united. Fundamentally, it is separation from God. Paul suggests as much in Ephesians 2:1: “You were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked.” To walk in sin is to be dead, to be enslaved to dark powers, to be separated from God, to be children of his wrath. This type of separation is an estrangement, a hostility, an alienation from the life and hope of the living God. In this sense, all of us, by nature, are born dead, and it is this death that Jesus endured in his suffering on the cross.

But of course, death is more than just separation from God. Death also marks the separation of the soul from the body. God made human beings to be embodied souls and ensouled bodies, and death rips this union asunder. But what happens to these two parts after they’re separated? Psalm 16:10 gives us a window into the biblical teaching.

          You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, 
                    or let your holy one see corruption.
This passage directs us to the normal account of what happened when a human being died prior to the death and resurrection of Jesus. The soul was abandoned “to Sheol,” and the body saw corruption or decayed.

In Acts 2:29–31, Peter tells us that David, in writing this psalm, foresaw the resurrection of Christ, “that he was not abandoned to Sheol (that is, his soul wasn’t), nor did his flesh see corruption” (notice that Peter reads the second line as a reference to Jesus’s body or flesh). Thus prior to Jesus, at death, souls normally went to Sheol, and bodies (flesh) decayed. We’re all familiar with the latter, but the former is more opaque. A quick Bible study will show us why Peter thinks that David’s prophecy in Psalm 16 is such good news.

What Is Sheol?

In the Old Testament, Sheol is the place of the souls of the dead, both the righteous (like Jacob, Genesis 37:35, and Samuel, 1 Samuel 28:13–14) and the wicked (Psalm 31:17). In the New Testament, the Hebrew word Sheol is translated as hades, and the description of Sheol in the Old and New Testaments bears some resemblance to the Hades of Greek mythology. It is under the earth (Numbers 16:30–33), and it is like a city with gates (Isaiah 38:10) and bars (Job 17:16). It is a land of darkness, a place where shades, the shadowy souls of men, dwell (Isaiah 14:9; 26:14). It is the land of forgetfulness (Psalm 88:12), where no work is done and no wisdom exists (Ecclesiastes 9:10). Most significantly, Sheol is a place where no one praises God (Psalm 6:5; 88:10–11; 115:17; Isaiah 38:18).

In the New Testament, the most extended depiction of the afterlife is found in Luke 16:19–31. There we learn that, like the Hades of Greek mythology, the biblical Sheol has two compartments: Hades proper (where the rich man is sent, Luke 16:23) and “Abraham’s bosom” (where the angels carry Lazarus, Luke 16:22). Hades proper is a place of torment, where fire causes anguish to the souls imprisoned there. Abraham’s bosom, on the other hand, while within shouting distance of Hades, is separated from it by a great chasm (Luke 16:26), and is, like the Greek Elysium, a place of comfort and rest.

While much mystery remains, the picture begins to take shape. All dead souls go down to Sheol/hades, but Sheol is divided into two distinct sides, one for the righteous and one for the wicked. The righteous who died prior to Christ dwelt in Sheol with Abraham, and though they were cut off from the land of the living (and therefore from the worship of Yahweh on earth), they were not tormented as the wicked were.

Where Did Jesus Go When He Died?

What, then, does this tell us about where Jesus was on Holy Saturday? Based on Jesus’s words to the thief on the cross in Luke 23:43, some Christians believe that after his death, Jesus’s soul went to heaven to be in the presence of the Father. But Luke 23:43 doesn’t say that Jesus would be in the presence of God; it says he would be in the presence of the thief (“Today you will be with me in Paradise”), and based on the Old Testament and Luke 16, it seems likely that the now-repentant thief would be at Abraham’s side, a place of comfort and rest for the righteous dead, which Jesus here calls “Paradise.”

Following his death for sin, then, Jesus journeys to Hades, to the City of Death, and rips its gates off the hinges. He liberates Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, John the Baptist, and the rest of the Old Testament faithful, ransoming them from the power of Sheol (Psalm 49:15; 86:13; 89:48). They had waited there for so long, not having received what was promised, so that their spirits would be made perfect along with the saints of the new covenant (Hebrews 11:39–40; 12:23).

After his resurrection, Jesus ascends to heaven and brings the ransomed dead with him, so that now Paradise is no longer down near the place of torment, but is up in the third heaven, the highest heaven, where God dwells (2 Corinthians 12:2–4).

Now, in the church age, when the righteous die, they aren’t merely carried by angels to Abraham’s bosom; they depart to be with Christ, which is far better (Philippians 1:23). The wicked, however, remain in Hades in torment, until the final judgment, when Hades gives up the dead who dwell there, and they are judged according to their deeds, and then Death and Hades are thrown into CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored, into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:13–15).

Good News for Us

What implications does this have for Holy Week? Christ’s journey to Hades demonstrates that he was indeed made like us in every way. Not only did he bear the wrath of God on our behalf; he endured death, the separation of his soul from his body. His body was in Joseph’s tomb (Luke 23:50–53), and his soul was three days in Sheol, in the heart of the earth (Matthew 12:40).

But as Psalm 16 makes clear, Jesus is not only like us, but different. Jesus’s body was buried, like ours, but it did not decay. Jesus’s soul went to Hades, like the Old Testament saints, but wasn’t abandoned there. God raised him from the dead, reunited his soul with a now-glorified body, so that he is the firstfruits of the resurrection harvest.

And this is good news for us, because those in Christ now bypass the land of forgetfulness, where no one praises God. Instead, when we die, we join with the angelic choir and the saints of old to sing praises to the Lamb who was slain for us and our salvation.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> How does one get that the preaching was "through Noah?"


Christ preached through Noah in the same manner that he preaches through Christians today.

By the Spirit of Christ. 

"Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:11


----------



## hobbs27

gemcgrew said:


> Christ preached through Noah in the same manner that he preaches through Christians today.
> 
> By the Spirit of Christ.
> 
> "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:11



 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into.

Not to themselves, but to us( first century Christians)... Death reigned the old covenant, eternal life reigns in the new.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Christ preached through Noah in the same manner that he preaches through Christians today.
> 
> By the Spirit of Christ.
> 
> "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." 1 Peter 1:11



I'm 100% sure Christ preached through Noah but 1 Peter 3:18-19 says "He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison."

Christ was made alive in the spirit. Then he went and preached. The only mention of Noah was about who the group in prison was, not who was doing the preaching.
There is a mystery associated to who this group was. Perhaps a group of the Elect or fallen angels. Maybe the preaching was not for salvation but judging.  Salvation offered after physical death perhaps. Who knows, it is a mystery. 

If it was Noah, was he now preaching to the group in prison who were once living on the earth when he was who were at the time of Christ's death spirits?
Who was Christ through Noah preaching to? Christ was physically dead and alive spiritually. Through Noah his spirit preached to those spirits that were alive when Noah was. What was the purpose of this preaching?

Was it the human spirit of the man Jesus or the divine spirit of the pre-existing 1/3 of the Trinity that was preaching through Noah?


----------



## EverGreen1231

Artfuldodger said:


> Did they have to believe Jesus was the only way or was a belief in God enough?



Yes.


----------



## Artfuldodger

EverGreen1231 said:


> Yes.



OK, so a belief in God was enough.


----------



## welderguy

Artfuldodger said:


> OK, so a belief in God was enough.




Pretty sure he meant the "yes" for both.


----------



## welderguy

Jesus said I am the door of the sheepfold.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Election does make the answers easier as to how the sheepfold are told about Jesus. 

The free will view makes it a little harder. It places man in the mix of spreading the message that Jesus is the only way. I hate to think about how many of the people Jesus died for who have already died without ever hearing about Jesus.

Some believe that Jesus died for all and the we know God by nature. That Jesus atoned "all" sin. So in that respect Jesus "is" the way. 
That's fine but it doesn't answer "whosoever" believes. 

Then there was the time before Christ. Adam believed only in a promise. He knew it would be the seed of a woman. I guess you could say that in this way he believed in Jesus.

After the flood or even after the garden people ventured all over the world and forgot about the promise. They believed in God  but somehow forgot about the promise. 

Now we as Free will believers must tell them or as Election believers, the Holy Spirit will tell them.

I believe in Free will but hope the Holy Spirit will tell them.


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm 100% sure Christ preached through Noah but 1 Peter 3:18-19 says "He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit, in which He also went and preached to the spirits in prison."
> 
> Christ was made alive in the spirit. Then he went and preached. The only mention of Noah was about who the group in prison was, not who was doing the preaching.
> There is a mystery associated to who this group was. Perhaps a group of the Elect or fallen angels. Maybe the preaching was not for salvation but judging.  Salvation offered after physical death perhaps. Who knows, it is a mystery.
> 
> If it was Noah, was he now preaching to the group in prison who were once living on the earth when he was who were at the time of Christ's death spirits?
> Who was Christ through Noah preaching to? Christ was physically dead and alive spiritually. Through Noah his spirit preached to those spirits that were alive when Noah was. What was the purpose of this preaching?
> 
> Was it the human spirit of the man Jesus or the divine spirit of the pre-existing 1/3 of the Trinity that was preaching through Noah?



With your insertion of "then" you create a chronology that is not in the scripture.  The verb is best translated "having gone" (definitely a prior event...chronologically that is).  Rather than write more I will recommend Dr. Gill.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> With your insertion of "then" you create a chronology that is not in the scripture.  The verb is best translated "having gone" (definitely a prior event...chronologically that is).  Rather than write more I will recommend Dr. Gill.



I think adding the (ed) to the verb preach also made it a past tense. Which we all agree the event was past at the time this was written.

1peter 3:19 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol,


----------



## Artfuldodger

"He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."

"after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm."

"After being made alive, he went"

"By which also he went"

"In that state He also went"

There is a chronology in this scripture. Jesus died a physical death and made alive in the spirit. In that state, which is now a spirit, he went. 
The order is there. He is no longer alive as a physical man. He is alive in spirit form only. He went in that state. He is still in "time." The time from his physical death to his resurrection is around three days. 
It was his spirit that went and not the Spirit that went. It was the 100% man part of his entity that went. It had to be "He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit."
So he went or in which he went. In that state he also went.
In that time he went.


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I think adding the (ed) to the verb preach also made it a past tense. Which we all agree the event was past at the time this was written.
> 
> 1peter 3:19 Aramaic Bible in Plain English
> And he preached to those souls who were held in Sheol,



Who?


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> "He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit."
> 
> "after being put to death in the fleshly realm but made alive in the spiritual realm."
> 
> "After being made alive, he went"
> 
> "By which also he went"
> 
> "In that state He also went"
> 
> There is a chronology in this scripture. Jesus died a physical death and made alive in the spirit. In that state, which is now a spirit, he went.
> The order is there. He is no longer alive as a physical man. He is alive in spirit form only. He went in that state. He is still in "time." The time from his physical death to his resurrection is around three days.
> It was his spirit that went and not the Spirit that went. It was the 100% man part of his entity that went. It had to be "He was put to death in the body, but made alive in the spirit."
> So he went or in which he went. In that state he also went.
> In that time he went.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> Who?



You really need to add to your library...


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> You really need to add to your library...



True, but translations of Aramaic NT isn't likely to make the list soon.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> True, but translations of Aramaic NT isn't likely to make the list soon.



Yeah, I put that in there to raise a brow, just for fun.

 May I suggest this fine book you can get on amazon? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Stuart_Russell

Or this one..both are great: https://www.amazon.com/Matthew-24-Fulfilled-John-Bray/dp/0915815907


----------



## MX5HIGH

Yes


----------



## Bob2010

1988USMC said:


> The evidence of God and His creation is evident in everything we see. Jesus Christ died on the cross in order to give us a path to forgiveness that we sure don't deserve.
> 
> The word of God says it, I believe it, end of story for me!



I made it to here. I can't keep reading the next 3 pages of debate. You tagged it here. Some do believe that scripture in a way confirms that seeing Gods creation exposes one to God and there maybe some kind of unspoken grace there for people who never hear the name of Jesus. This whole notion of God being fair is funny. Is he fair by our standards or by his standards? Everyone wants to put God in a little box that they can understand.  I tried that too before I accepted Christ by creating my own God. Then after I was saved I wanted to figure out the Trinity,  election,  and why a fair God would condemn someone who never heard of Jesus. The answer is simple. Both election and free will can be true and I don't have to understand God and his ways. People who never heard of Christ could go to H e l l. I can have salvation though! God was brutal in the Old Testament.  We don't live in old Testament times. It's still the same God though. While God has not changed we have Jesus who saved us from the wrath of God. If Jesus is not the only way the he died for nothing! Do you believe your a good person? While yall bank on that getting you in to heaven I think I'll go with the Jesus!


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bob2010 said:


> I made it to here. I can't keep reading the next 3 pages of debate. You tagged it here. Some do believe that scripture in a way confirms that seeing Gods creation exposes one to God and there maybe some kind of unspoken grace there for people who never hear the name of Jesus. This whole notion of God being fair is funny. Is he fair by our standards or by his standards? Everyone wants to put God in a little box that they can understand.  I tried that too before I accepted Christ by creating my own God. Then after I was saved I wanted to figure out the Trinity,  election,  and why a fair God would condemn someone who never heard of Jesus. The answer is simple. Both election and free will can be true and I don't have to understand God and his ways. People who never heard of Christ could go to H e l l. I can have salvation though! God was brutal in the Old Testament.  We don't live in old Testament times. It's still the same God though. While God has not changed we have Jesus who saved us from the wrath of God. If Jesus is not the only way the he died for nothing! Do you believe your a good person? While yall bank on that getting you in to heaven I think I'll go with the Jesus!



Jesus said, "if you have seen me, you have seen my Father." In your study of the Trinity is it possible God can tell whoever he wants to about Jesus? I agree we can't figure out God's fairness or judgement nor am I trying too.
Just wondering if someone knows God, then they might know Jesus. This could be accomplished by the Holy Spirit telling them so. 
If you have seen God, then you have seen Jesus. Jesus died for the sins of the world.


----------



## Bob2010

I don't know what scripture it is. My Pastor talk about it. The biggest question he gets is "Do people that never hear the name of Jesus go to H e l l. Some scripture points to knowing God through seeing his creation etc. It's pretty clear though that they unfortunately do go to H e l l. That's why we are called to go to the end of the earth to tell everyone about Jesus . But just because I don't completely understand doesn't mean God doesn't have that figured out already.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bob2010 said:


> I don't know what scripture it is. My Pastor talk about it. The biggest question he gets is "Do people that never hear the name of Jesus go to H e l l. Some scripture points to knowing God through seeing his creation etc. It's pretty clear though that they unfortunately do go to H e l l. That's why we are called to go to the end of the earth to tell everyone about Jesus . But just because I don't completely understand doesn't mean God doesn't have that figured out already.



The only thing I know is, God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. I don't believe the salvation of others is dependent on us.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Bob2010 said:


> I don't know what scripture it is. My Pastor talk about it. The biggest question he gets is "Do people that never hear the name of Jesus go to H e l l. Some scripture points to knowing God through seeing his creation etc. It's pretty clear though that they unfortunately do go to H e l l. That's why we are called to go to the end of the earth to tell everyone about Jesus . But just because I don't completely understand doesn't mean God doesn't have that figured out already.



Your preacher could be referencing Romans 1:20;

For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I'm not sure this is addressing the whole world as this group  suppresses the truth by their wickedness.
This group knows God. They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them.

For although they knew God they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks.

This group was without excuse to worship God. God will make it obvious to the individual that he wants to worship him.

This knowledge has to come from God and not man.

This Good News tells us how God makes us right in his sight.


----------



## Artfuldodger

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:44 

But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 1 Corinthians 2:14

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 1 Corinthians 1:21 

Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."Romans 10:19

Jesus is the only way but where does the knowledge or message come from for God to have mercy on whom he will have mercy?


----------



## Hunting One

Waking this old thread:

In the spirit of philosophical theological debate and not with the intent to offend anyone, I respectfully disagree.

Jesus is the only way to people that believe Jesus is the only way.  

Here is what I mean:  Christians believe Jesus is the way to salvation because this is what their "divine" or "divinely-inspired" writings tell them.  This concept of course reinforces the community's belief in Christianity.  While many people in this thread and elsewhere proclaim that they "know" this to be true, it is only true because they choose to believe so because of the scriptures and those before them that claim to "know."  The reality is that no one really "knows" unless he/she has communicated with or experienced the divine.  It is a concept accepted by "faith" in the community from which it originated.

In contrast, other religions throughout the world do not share in this belief because members of these communities have different experiences, perspectives, and writings that convince them otherwise.  In the eyes of many of these people, the Christian way of thinking about salvation is wrong.

In essence, you have multiple groups of people declaring their beliefs about the world and the afterworld are superior to others because their writings tell them so.  

Who is correct?  What is the actual answer to original question of the thread?

...Only God knows.

Metaphorically speaking, I believe God is like a diamond.  Every religion or belief system in the world is trying see and understand the "brilliance" and "sparkle" of what we call God.  While we quibble about what this is, we often fail to see that we are all looking at the same thing.  However, like a diamond in the light, when we look at God from different angles, this brilliance looks differently to different people.  No matter what anyone may profess or claim to know in this earthly realm, this is a truth.  

Consequently, I have a hard time believing that "Satan's den" is in the cards for the many exceptionally good people of other faiths - such as the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, etc. - that have and are practicing the positive principles that are universally accepted as "good."  They were/are the way they were/are because this is how they see "the light." Are all of these people wrong?  Only God knows the answer.

Thus, it seems to me, if I want to hedge my salvational bet, it would be wise to focus on right thought and good works throughout my life.  This is to me faith in action.  It brings inner peace in this life; whereas, the alternative sows discord and discontent.  Whether or not this does me any good after I leave this earthly realm, I do not know.  In the end, God will decide.


----------



## gordon 2

Hunting One said:


> Waking this old thread:
> 
> In the spirit of philosophical theological debate and not with the intent to offend anyone, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Jesus is the only way to people that believe Jesus is the only way.
> 
> Here is what I mean:  Christians believe Jesus is the way to salvation because this is what their "divine" or "divinely-inspired" writings tell them.  This concept of course reinforces the community's belief in Christianity.  While many people in this thread and elsewhere proclaim that they "know" this to be true, it is only true because they choose to believe so because of the scriptures and those before them that claim to "know."  The reality is that no one really "knows" unless he/she has communicated with or experienced the divine.  It is a concept accepted by "faith" in the community from which it originated.
> 
> In contrast, other religions throughout the world do not share in this belief because members of these communities have different experiences, perspectives, and writings that convince them otherwise.  In the eyes of many of these people, the Christian way of thinking about salvation is wrong.
> 
> In essence, you have multiple groups of people declaring their beliefs about the world and the afterworld are superior to others because their writings tell them so.
> 
> Who is correct?  What is the actual answer to original question of the thread?
> 
> ...Only God knows.
> 
> Metaphorically speaking, I believe God is like a diamond.  Every religion or belief system in the world is trying see and understand the "brilliance" and "sparkle" of what we call God.  While we quibble about what this is, we often fail to see that we are all looking at the same thing.  However, like a diamond in the light, when we look at God from different angles, this brilliance looks differently to different people.  No matter what anyone may profess or claim to know in this earthly realm, this is a truth.
> 
> Consequently, I have a hard time believing that "Satan's den" is in the cards for the many exceptionally good people of other faiths - such as the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, etc. - that have and are practicing the positive principles that are universally accepted as "good."  They were/are the way they were/are because this is how they see "the light." Are all of these people wrong?  Only God knows the answer.
> 
> Thus, it seems to me, if I want to hedge my salvational bet, it would be wise to focus on right thought and good works throughout my life.  This is to me faith in action.  It brings inner peace in this life; whereas, the alternative sows discord and discontent.  Whether or not this does me any good after I leave this earthly realm, I do not know.  In the end, God will decide.




You have a point, but only to a point.

Many Christians experience Jesus today, yet they do not physically see him they claim to have personally encountered Jesus. This experience they claim is for God's grace and the sacrifice of the cross.

Now what is there to point that Jesus experienced this way is not experienced or encountered by non Christians today or in the past  but they cannot identify Him as savoir not knowing the cross? They know/knew not it is Him not knowing the experience of the sacrifice on the cross, yet they walk ( act) with Him as the Hebrews did. And when they walked with Him knowing His will and living with Him in their hearts though they knew Him  not as our Christian savoir, not as "our" Jesus... by faith-walk are they not His,  and yet Him their salvation, and so said saved as we mean it, that they walked/walk by faith as we do?

I have always been curious about the use of a Samaritan in the parable of The Good Samaritan's , "Who's your neighbor?" especially in light of this:

"You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

Now was the woman at the well saved? And this before the cross? Did she know this rabbi, which she saw to speak to, was her savoir? Did she walk by faith after her talk with our Jesus yet she knew Him not as such?


----------



## hummerpoo

Hunting One said:


> Waking this old thread:
> 
> In the spirit of philosophical theological debate and not with the intent to offend anyone, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Jesus is the only way to people that believe Jesus is the only way.
> 
> Here is what I mean:  Christians believe Jesus is the way to salvation because this is what their "divine" or "divinely-inspired" writings tell them.  This concept of course reinforces the community's belief in Christianity.  While many people in this thread and elsewhere proclaim that they "know" this to be true, it is only true because they choose to believe so because of the scriptures and those before them that claim to "know."  The reality is that no one really "knows" unless he/she has communicated with or experienced the divine.  It is a concept accepted by "faith" in the community from which it originated.
> 
> In contrast, other religions throughout the world do not share in this belief because members of these communities have different experiences, perspectives, and writings that convince them otherwise.  In the eyes of many of these people, the Christian way of thinking about salvation is wrong.
> 
> In essence, you have multiple groups of people declaring their beliefs about the world and the afterworld are superior to others because their writings tell them so.
> 
> Who is correct?  What is the actual answer to original question of the thread?
> 
> ...Only God knows.
> 
> Metaphorically speaking, I believe God is like a diamond.  Every religion or belief system in the world is trying see and understand the "brilliance" and "sparkle" of what we call God.  While we quibble about what this is, we often fail to see that we are all looking at the same thing.  However, like a diamond in the light, when we look at God from different angles, this brilliance looks differently to different people.  No matter what anyone may profess or claim to know in this earthly realm, this is a truth.
> 
> Consequently, I have a hard time believing that "Satan's den" is in the cards for the many exceptionally good people of other faiths - such as the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, etc. - that have and are practicing the positive principles that are universally accepted as "good."  They were/are the way they were/are because this is how they see "the light." Are all of these people wrong?  Only God knows the answer.
> 
> Thus, it seems to me, if I want to hedge my salvational bet, it would be wise to focus on right thought and good works throughout my life.  This is to me faith in action.  It brings inner peace in this life; whereas, the alternative sows discord and discontent.  Whether or not this does me any good after I leave this earthly realm, I do not know.  In the end, God will decide.



Gordon covered the personal relationship initiated by God, which remains unacknowledged by your post, quite well.  The other aspect that I noticed is a quite low threshold of orthopraxy (right behavior).  When compared to other religions (belief systems) orthodox Christianity is, to my knowledge, unique, in that no man can, of his own nature or effort, attain a level of righteousness acceptable to Holy God.


>>You might ask, as many have, "What is the essential nature of one of whom it is said 'In the beginning God'?"<<


----------



## Artfuldodger

Question Hunting One;

These various facets of the diamond. Did God make them or is that man's addition or way of seeing the one same true God?

We could say that within Christianity we have the many facets called denominations. Did God create all of these facets as a way to bring more individuals to salvation? Making it easier to worship the same true God by letting each individual or smaller groups form their own beliefs? Or did man form all of these facets to make it easier to believe in the same one true God?


----------



## gordon 2

Hunting One said:


> Waking this old thread:
> 
> In the spirit of philosophical theological debate and not with the intent to offend anyone, I respectfully disagree.
> 
> Jesus is the only way to people that believe Jesus is the only way.
> 
> Here is what I mean:  Christians believe Jesus is the way to salvation because this is what their "divine" or "divinely-inspired" writings tell them.  This concept of course reinforces the community's belief in Christianity.  While many people in this thread and elsewhere proclaim that they "know" this to be true, it is only true because they choose to believe so because of the scriptures and those before them that claim to "know."  The reality is that no one really "knows" unless he/she has communicated with or experienced the divine.  It is a concept accepted by "faith" in the community from which it originated.
> 
> In contrast, other religions throughout the world do not share in this belief because members of these communities have different experiences, perspectives, and writings that convince them otherwise.  In the eyes of many of these people, the Christian way of thinking about salvation is wrong.
> 
> In essence, you have multiple groups of people declaring their beliefs about the world and the afterworld are superior to others because their writings tell them so.
> 
> Who is correct?  What is the actual answer to original question of the thread?
> 
> ...Only God knows.
> 
> Metaphorically speaking, I believe God is like a diamond.  Every religion or belief system in the world is trying see and understand the "brilliance" and "sparkle" of what we call God.  While we quibble about what this is, we often fail to see that we are all looking at the same thing.  However, like a diamond in the light, when we look at God from different angles, this brilliance looks differently to different people.  No matter what anyone may profess or claim to know in this earthly realm, this is a truth.
> 
> Consequently, I have a hard time believing that "Satan's den" is in the cards for the many exceptionally good people of other faiths - such as the Dalai Lama, Ghandi, etc. - that have and are practicing the positive principles that are universally accepted as "good."  They were/are the way they were/are because this is how they see "the light." Are all of these people wrong?  Only God knows the answer.
> 
> Thus, it seems to me, if I want to hedge my salvational bet, it would be wise to focus on right thought and good works throughout my life.  This is to me faith in action.  It brings inner peace in this life; whereas, the alternative sows discord and discontent.  Whether or not this does me any good after I leave this earthly realm, I do not know.  In the end, God will decide.



By the way, is not your diamond a mandella as you understand it...?


----------



## Hunting One

Excellent thoughts Gentlemen.  I will try to answer everyone's questions/statements:

Hummerpoo stated:
"...When compared to other religions (belief systems) orthodox Christianity is, to my knowledge, unique, in that no man can, of his own nature or effort, attain a level of righteousness acceptable to Holy God."

My main point is that no one can actually know what or what is not acceptable to God.  We often think we know because of what people in our culture, community, and church tell us based on their individual and collective interpretation of holy scriptures.  We accept these teachings based on our own faith and insist we are right in understanding historical interpretations.  However, I believe when we do this and hold these positions we are no longer being humble before God.  We think we know the nature and the intent of the Almighty.  We tend to judge other people based on our assumptions about how we believe the Almighty will judge them.  I believe our tendency to sit in judgment of others in these spiritual matters misses the point of what the scriptures tell us in the first place:  God is the judge of all and decides what happens to everyone.  We should not presume to know the will of God.


Artful Dodger asked:
"These various facets of the diamond. Did God make them or is that man's addition or way of seeing the one same true God?"

The diamond is a simple metaphor for God.  The diamond is God, metaphorically speaking.  The facets of the diamond are windows in which each individual and/or culture views God.  When you look at a diamond from different angles under a light, each part of the diamond looks different.  Similarly, each culture is looking at the same thing - God.  However, we each see God a little differently - like a diamond in a light.

Artful Dodger asked:
"We could say that within Christianity we have the many facets called denominations. Did God create all of these facets as a way to bring more individuals to salvation? Making it easier to worship the same true God by letting each individual or smaller groups form their own beliefs? Or did man form all of these facets to make it easier to believe in the same one true God?"

These are excellent questions for which I do not know the true answers.  Only God knows the origination and actual purpose of different denominations and multiple perspectives.  What I do know is that they exist and seek the same thing.  Since I do not claim to know God's will, they must be here for a purpose that has not been revealed to me.  Hence, it seems wrong to me to sit in judgment of what I do not truly understand.

Gordon 2 asked:
"By the way, is not your diamond a mandella as you understand it...?"

In no way should the diamond in my metaphor be interpreted as existing in the physical plane as an actual object we can grasp and hold.  God is the diamond we are all trying to see.  God's brilliance and light draws us toward salvation.  The road we travel during our lifetime is based upon our view of the reflection of the brilliance and light through the facet in which we look.


This is a good conversation, and I hope I have been helpful.


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## Artfuldodger

Hunting One, in the OP I ask if Jesus is the only way? I was seeking something towards how generations and nations of the various islands and far away villages could know that Jesus is the only way.

In your perspective, if one knows God, do they know Jesus? Some believe that since God is Jesus, to know one; you know the other.
In that perspective did the Native Americans 500 years ago know Jesus by knowing God?
In that same perspective do the Hindu know Jesus by knowing God?

I must admit that there is only one true God who is the Great Architect of the Universe. Yet Christianity, which I believe, tells me that I must also believe that God sent his Son to die for my sins. Therefore my path doesn't take any "works" so to speak in my journey to see this one true God.

Yet if Jesus is God, then to know Jesus is to know God. To know God is to know Jesus. I'm seeking a way for everyone to be able to be with God other than relying on man to reach them. We've already missed reaching many of the dead. I'm hoping their destiny was not caused by me or any other man.

Some suggest that it is the Spirit of God that convinces whom he pleases of his Son the Messiah. Christianity requires a Messiah and a belief in that Messiah. Some people believe it is up to man to reach the world placing the destiny of the world with man. Others place this burden on the Spirit of God as he is more capable than we.

What are your thoughts on Jesus? Do you believe the destiny of others reaching God lies with man?


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## ez2cdave

Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way. There are NOT "many paths to God". There is only ONE and His name is JESUS !

John 14: 6 clearly states this, in Jesus' own words . . .

New International Version
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

New Living Translation
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

English Standard Version
Jesus said to him, â€œI am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Berean Study Bible
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Berean Literal Bible
Jesus says to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father, if not by Me.

New American Standard Bible
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

King James Bible
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

International Standard Version
Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

NET Bible
Jesus replied, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

New Heart English Bible
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
Yeshua said to him, â€œI AM THE LIVING GOD, The Way and The Truth and The Life; no man comes to my Father but by me alone.â€�

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Jesus answered him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one goes to the Father except through me.

New American Standard 1977
Jesus said to him, â€œI am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Jesus said unto him, I AM the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes unto the Father, but by me.

King James 2000 Bible
Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes unto the Father, but by me.

American King James Version
Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man comes to the Father, but by me.

American Standard Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Darby Bible Translation
Jesus says to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father unless by me.

English Revised Version
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus saith to him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Weymouth New Testament
"I am the Way," replied Jesus, "and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

World English Bible
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father, except through me.

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus saith to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me;


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## Artfuldodger

ez2cdave said:


> Yes, Jesus is the ONLY way. There are NOT "many paths to God". There is only ONE and His name is JESUS !
> 
> John 14: 6 clearly states this, in Jesus' own words . . .
> 
> New International Version
> Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.



John 6:37
All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

John 6:65
He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

John 17:6
"I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.


Considering how one views the Trinity, and the fact that a person has to get to Jesus from God, does this change anything in how one knows Jesus or has Jesus? Does it change anything in how one knows God or has God? 

I think the unity between God and Jesus is so close, you can't have one without the other. 

Most definitely it true what Jesus said in John 14:6. But remember what he also said in John 6:37, 6:65, and 17:6

"those the Father gives me will come to me"

You are not going to get to Jesus without God and you are not going to get to God without Jesus.


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