# can you commit suicide and go to heaven?



## hevishot

question says it all...If you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have led a good Christian life but for one reason or another kill yourself, can you still go to heaven? If you say no, please back it up with some scripture.


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## DCHunter

I don't think there is any scripture to back that up. I've looked before and couldn't find anything. I'm not sure where the belief that suicide sends you straight to hail comes from.


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## The AmBASSaDEER

I say no.


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## Lead Poison

I believe the only sin that keeps one from heaven is not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal Savior.

Suicide is a terrible, terrible action that hurts so many people other than the one who dies. I have friends that have gone through this terrible ordeal more than once.


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## PWalls

I can not picture or imagine the depression that a person would have to experience to contemplate suicide, especially a born-again Christian who has the indwelling Holy Spirit and a church family to guide and comfort them. Regardless of that, I do not believe that a Christian who gets to that state and committs that ultimate act ends up in the hot place. I think they still go to heaven (although I think they have to give an account for that lack of faith to Jesus).


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## No. GA. Mt. Man

Lead Poison said:


> I believe the only sin that keeps one from heaven is not accepting Jesus Christ as their Lord and personal Savior.
> 
> Suicide is a terrible, terrible action that hurts so many people other than the one who dies. I have friends that have gone through this terrible ordeal more than once.



Amen!


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## Branchminnow

PWalls said:


> (although I think they have to give an account for that lack of faith to Jesus).



key point right there that will pay for that sin while in the flesh.


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## FX Jenkins

hevishot said:


> question says it all...If you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have led a good Christian life but for one reason or another kill yourself, can you still go to heaven? If you say no, please back it up with some scripture.



I believe yes, based on the scriptures, and if I'm wrong...it means I'll never see my father again....but I live in peace that I will....


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## Doc_Holliday23

well there are a lot of ways to approach this question.

I think if a person is in his right mind and commits suicide then there is a slim chance he/she is going to heaven.  That's just my opinion.  Suicide in and of itself is probably the most selfish action a person can commit.  It relieves them of all "worldly pressure" while putting an enormous strain, grief, and perhaps even guilt on their loved ones.  Also, if the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and we are commanded by scripture not to defile it, how is it not a sin to kill that body?

1 Corinthians 6:19-20


> 19Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;20you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.



If a person accepted the Lord as savior but then died in sin what happens?  Some say you can't lose your salvation.  I disagree with that, as I have stated before.  

Now, I have known good Christian people who ended their own lives near the end of their lives while they were, as it is believed by most people around them, not in their right minds.  I do think these people are in heaven.  However, I don't know many of those people.


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## jdomacon

I think there is only one person who can answer that!!!


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## farmasis

Clear as a bell, IMO.

 Romans 8
 31What, then, shall we say in response to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36As it is written: 
   "For your sake we face death all day long; 
      we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."<SUP>[l]</SUP> *37No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,<SUP>[m]</SUP> neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.*


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## jimmy_mac

I'd have to say yes. Each of us that has accepted Jesus as our Savior is still human and as humans, though we are forgiven, we still make mistakes. So my take on it is, it is just a mistake, a bad judgement call, unfortunatly one that could not be reversed, but as I believe, once forgiven, always forgiven. Regardless of the sin, a Born Again Christian is forgiven daily. Like the saying goes...Forgiven, not perfect.


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## PJason

The answer is I do not know. It is not up to you or me or anyone on this board or for that matter anyone walking this earth. Suicide is a hard thing. I used to think that people who committed suicide were weak. There are men that I respected like Ernest Hemingway and Yukio Mishima who both killed themselves. One I believe out of loneliness and one out of a misplaced sense of national pride. There are friends of mine that have committed suicide like Matthew Coffer we were eighteen we had known each other all of our lives I knew the pain he was in but did little to help. For years I told myself that they were weak, that if they had strength of mind and body that they could have overcome their weakness, after all that’s how I kept the gun out of my own mouth for years. I’m not that person anymore, but that doesn’t mean I am not sometimes weak. I believe that God knows my weakness, as well as the Devil. I now know it is God’s strength not mine that has kept me here. Now I don’t know what it was that lead them to take their lives and it’s not for me to answer. I can only pray for them and the families they left behind, I pray for God’s Divine Mercy on their souls, and that’s really all I can do.


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## redneckcamo

*sealed !!!!*



farmasis said:


> Clear as a bell, IMO.
> 
> 
> 31What, then, shall we say in response to this?------- 35Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?  ---------38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,<SUP>[m]</SUP> neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/B]



my answer contains this... broken down.... but not out of context.....having been sealed too the day of redemption an indwelled by THE HOLY SPIRIT..we are HIS an have been ransomed an have passed from death too life ......... sorry farmasis for using part of your quote but when i came in here you had already posted the ANSWER .!!!;-)


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## Doug B.

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> If a person accepted the Lord as savior but then died in sin what happens?



A person can die in sin without committing suicide. We all sin. We all die. Our rightousness is as filthy rags. Our rightousness cannot save us. It is the rightousness of the Lord Jesus Christ that is imputed into our hearts when we are saved that saves us. Committing sins does not keep us from going to heaven, being lost keeps us from going to heaven. As long as we are in this earthly body we will commit sins.


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## farmasis

redneckcamo said:


> my answer contains this... broken down.... but not out of context.....having been sealed too the day of redemption an indwelled by THE HOLY SPIRIT..we are HIS an have been ransomed an have passed from death too life ......... sorry farmasis for using part of your quote but when i came in here you had already posted the ANSWER .!!!;-)


 
Amen brother, sealed by the Holy Spirit, is sealed indeed. If there had been an exception, I think Paul would have listed it. Nonetheless, I think he covered all situations.


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## kw5891

*mmmm*

i heard a man once say . he kill him self and he awoke in heaven  and the lord look him into his eyes and said my child all you had to do was trust me


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## Doc_Holliday23

polecat said:


> A person can die in sin without committing suicide.



Exactly... if a man was "saved" but died of a heart attack during the middle of acting on an adulterous affair, would he go to heaven?

What if a man was "saved" but died in a drunk driving accident and killed two people as well?

I'm not equating suicide with those two things but the Bible teaches us that we are "more than conquerors," that Jesus came to give us "abundant life," that we are to "fear not, for he is with us," etc.  Taking one's own life flies right in the face of all Biblical teaching.


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## Doc_Holliday23

farmasis said:


> If there had been an exception, I think Paul would have listed it.



well Paul does warn against backsliding, numerous times.

and I'm not saying a person has definitely backslidden if they commit suicide.  I don't know and its not my call.

I just seriously question a person who is able to commit suicide because of all of the ways that is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.

Does that person have strong faith?  I can't see how they would, and the Bible says "For by grace you have been saved _through faith_; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8.

Can you have faith that God, through the death of his Son, can supernaturally save you from your sins, but not have enough faith in God to see you through whatever worldly troubles you are going through?


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## Bones

I believe suicide is an illness caused by many things like cancer.  If a saved person dies whether it be from cancer or suicide I believe they will both be in heaven.  

Bones


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## Doc_Holliday23

what do y'all think about King Saul and Judas Iscariot?  In heaven?  Both were once God's chosen.  Both killed themselves.


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## PWalls

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> well Paul does warn against backsliding, numerous times.
> 
> and I'm not saying a person has definitely backslidden if they commit suicide.  I don't know and its not my call.
> 
> I just seriously question a person who is able to commit suicide because of all of the ways that is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
> 
> Does that person have strong faith?  I can't see how they would, and the Bible says "For by grace you have been saved _through faith_; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8.
> 
> Can you have faith that God, through the death of his Son, can supernaturally save you from your sins, but not have enough faith in God to see you through whatever worldly troubles you are going through?



What about this. Man driving down the road sees one of those "We Bare All" signs and responds with lust (sin) in his heart. Rear ends the car in front of him and dies. He didn't confess that sin. He did not repent. If you don't believe in the eternal security of the believer, then you have to believe that he went to the hot place. If you do not believe in the eternal security of the believer, then you had best stay at home and read the bible all day and night because there is no way that a human can live in this world without sinning and there is no way that a human can stop and confess each and every sin that he/she committs every day. So, stay at home and live in fear of sin.


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## Bitteroot

1 Corinthians 3:16-17 NIV) [16] Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? [17] If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God&'s temple is sacred, and you are that temple.

I think, that Judas' sin was suicide, not the deception of Christ. 
Peter also betrayed Christ and received salvation.Paul received forgiveness even though he was considered the chief among sinners and was responsible for a multitude of deaths.

I think I'll just ride it out and not risk it. You know, just for kicks. Thats one act you can't get forgiveness for in my opinion.  I'll play the odds.


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## redneckcamo

*judas was not sealed*

the suicide of judas iscariot cannot apply too this question !!! he was not a born again christian,sealed by THE HOLY SPIRIT too the day of redemption .....he was a thief an a liar who followed Christ Jesus an seen an heard all He done an yet chose the perdition path anyway ....you cant receive something that hasnt been offered yett ....the HOLY SPIRIT had not been offered too man an was only in an upon Jesus of Nazareth  at that time ....later He came as the Comforter an man was able too receive Christ Jesus as their Lord an Saviour an be sealed to the day of redemption an nothing can seperate us from the LOVE....


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## farmasis

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> well Paul does warn against backsliding, numerous times.
> 
> and I'm not saying a person has definitely backslidden if they commit suicide. I don't know and its not my call.
> 
> I just seriously question a person who is able to commit suicide because of all of the ways that is contrary to the teachings of the Bible.
> 
> Does that person have strong faith? I can't see how they would, and the Bible says "For by grace you have been saved _through faith_; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" Ephesians 2:8.
> 
> Can you have faith that God, through the death of his Son, can supernaturally save you from your sins, but not have enough faith in God to see you through whatever worldly troubles you are going through?


 
I am sure God does not like backsliding. I don't believe the Bible says that that will cost you your salvation. Yes, I have seen the scriptures that some use to support that it will.

Yes, you can have different measures of faith. You are not given a large measure of faith upon salvation. It comes by testing the word and proving God true.


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## farmasis

redneckcamo said:


> the suicide of judas iscariot cannot apply too this question !!! he was not a born again christian,sealed by THE HOLY SPIRIT too the day of redemption .....he was a thief an a liar who followed Christ Jesus an seen an heard all He done an yet chose the perdition path anyway ....you cant receive something that hasnt been offered yett ....the HOLY SPIRIT had not been offered too man an was only in an upon Jesus of Nazareth at that time ....later He came as the Comforter an man was able too receive Christ Jesus as their Lord an Saviour an be sealed to the day of redemption an nothing can seperate us from the LOVE....


 
Christ even referred to him as a devil at the Lord's supper. I don't think he was a child of God.


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## JerkBait

i believe if you are truly saved then you will go to heaven regardless. 

although i do not see how a person who has the joy of the lord in their heart would want to end their life.


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## MudDucker

Okay, lets throw this in.  If you are in a situation where you can save yourself, but you allow your life to be taken, isn't this a form of suicide?  

Isn't that what happened at the cross?  Didn't Jesus say he could call the legion of angels if he wished to do so.

I choose to believe that no one can commit suicide unless they suffer from a disease of the mind or a demon attack, neither of which will cause the loss of salvation.


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## Milkman

farmasis said:


> Clear as a bell, IMO.
> 
> Romans 8
> 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.[/B]



I agree with what Paul wrote and will accept no other theory other than this sin is like all others, forgiven by salvation.

Many times when someone takes their own life it is due to uncontrollable emotional stress due to depression. This illness is not nearly as easily diagnosed or treated as many others. However it is just as deadly as cancer, heart disease, etc.  Many who loose their battle with depression take their life in varied ways. Law enforcement officers will tell you that there are a number of auto crashes that are not accidental. This is due to someone taking their life in an effort to conceal the act. Many others appear to just reach the point of no return one day and use whatever means is readily available to commit the act.

There is no way to describe the agony of the family and friends left behind to deal with the loss of a loved one who lost this battle. It is a  terrible ordeal.


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## widowmaker1

suicide is murder, but look at paul, who spent half of his life killing and persacuting christians, then on the way to demascus he was saved by the very man{jesus}he had helped kill. now he is known as one of the biggest contributors to the spread of christianity. i believe the only unforgivable sin is to harden your heart as to rebuke christ.


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## Spotlite

*Judas?*



farmasis said:


> Christ even referred to him as a devil at the Lord's supper. I don't think he was a child of God.



He was a child of God and he was chosen, Jesus also told Peter "get thee behind me Satan"


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## Spotlite

hevishot said:


> question says it all...If you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have led a good Christian life but for one reason or another kill yourself, can you still go to heaven?



Research what has been said on this very board many many times.

The answer is;

1.  No because you were not truly saved to start with 

Or,

2.  Sure, OSAS

But let me ask you this, how could a person that is saved get so far down that suicide is the only way out if, Jesus said I will never leave you nor forsake you?

I believe that a person that commits suicide is one of the following, pending on how you believe.

1. Backslid

or

2. Not saved to start with

Im not going to place them in the hot place or around the throne, not my place, I just dont see how a child of God that can hear Gods voice can reject or refuse to hear God, no way suicide is the will of God and no way someone can convince me that God would allow his child to check out that way. I mean wheres the peace, the promised comforter, etc

JMO.


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## HandgunHTR

Here is my take on it.  It may be wrong, but it is my opinion.

Committing suicide shows a true lack of faith in your Savior.  It is written that God will not put more on you than you can handle.  So in order to commit suicide you have to _not_ believe that, also you have to _not_ believe that your Savior can help you through any troubles.  Therefore, how will you be able to stand in judgement and say that you truly believe that Jesus is your Savior when you didn't believe what was written in His Word?


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## JerkBait

Spotlite said:


> will of God and no way someone can convince me that God would allow his child to check out that way. I mean wheres the peace, the promised comforter, etc



it isnt in Gods will for one of his children to commit suicide but he very much so will allow it. We have a free will to do what we choose whether it is Gods will or not. God allows us to make our own choices whether they are pleasing to him or not.

The same peaceful, promised comforter is there through it all. He never changes, we do. He has never forsaken anyone, theyve just chose to forsake him....


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## JerkBait

HandgunHTR said:


> Committing suicide shows a true lack of faith in your Savior.



I agree with that.


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## Spotlite

JerkBait said:


> it isnt in Gods will for one of his children to commit suicide but he very much so will allow it. We have a free will to do what we choose whether it is Gods will or not. God allows us to make our own choices whether they are pleasing to him or not.
> 
> The same peaceful, promised comforter is there through it all. He never changes, we do. He has never forsaken anyone, theyve just chose to forsake him....



Great point,I agree.


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## FX Jenkins

While we are a new creature in Christ at the point of salvation, we are not instantly mature in our faith...new Christians that do not receive adequate or proper discipleship can slip back into some dark and depressive thought patterns, still on the milk, they do not fully comprehend the power of living in the spirit .....I also know God, as the author of our faith, has promised to finish our faith, in so far as we abide in Him and His word...and only He knows the condition of the heart and soul when someone voluntarily or involuntarily checks out.


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## letsgohuntin

HandgunHTR said:


> Here is my take on it.  It may be wrong, but it is my opinion.
> 
> Committing suicide shows a true lack of faith in your Savior.  It is written that God will not put more on you than you can handle.  So in order to commit suicide you have to _not_ believe that, also you have to _not_ believe that your Savior can help you through any troubles.  Therefore, how will you be able to stand in judgement and say that you truly believe that Jesus is your Savior when you didn't believe what was written in His Word?



That's exactly my feelings. When you choose to commit suicide, you are saying that all is hopeless and _NOTHING _can help you, including God. To me that is denying him because you do not have the faith that he will help you through that troubled time.


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## Lead Poison

letsgohuntin said:


> That's exactly my feelings. When you choose to commit suicide, you are saying that all is hopeless and _NOTHING _can help you, including God. To me that is denying him because you do not have the faith that he will help you through that troubled time.



I respectfully disagree. 

It appears you consider suicide a sin, I won't disagree. However, it also appears because the person who commits suicide (has an unconfessed sin), therefore you believe they cannot go to heaven.

The truth is, people die every single day with unconfessed sins in their life. None of us can truly remember each sin we've ever committed in life. Why would suicide be any different?

In a way, these people may be trying to reach God instead of denying God.


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## jneil

In staying with the topic; what about a soldier who jumps on a granade?


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## FX Jenkins

Lead Poison said:


> In a way, these people may be trying to reach God instead of denying God.



indeed....



jneil said:


> In staying with the topic; what about a soldier who jumps on a granade?



I kinda see this as polmaticaly the opposite...where as suicide is often selfish, jumping on a grenade and self sacrifice is very unselfish...No greater love can a man have that he lay down his life for another...John 15:13


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## sonofagun

Yes to the original question.  We all sin and will most likely sin again.  Suicide is a sin.  Jesus has paid the price for my past and future sins.  I love the Lord so much, I couldn't go to hail if I tried.

Gary


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## letsgohuntin

Lead Poison said:


> I respectfully totally disagree.
> 
> It appears you consider suicide a sin, I won't disagree. However, it also appears because the person who commits suicide (has an unconfessed sin), you believe they cannot go to heaven.
> 
> The truth is, people die every single day with unconfessed sins in their life. None of us can truly remember each sin we've ever committed in life. Why would suicide be any different?
> 
> In a way, these people may be trying to reach God instead of denying God.



I wasn't really considering the dying with sin in my statement,  just the fact that, in my opinion, if one feels they have no other choice but to die that they have denied _all trust _in God and his ability to help them. If they don't trust him in their greatest time of need, how can they claim the Lord be their savior?

Now if they all go to hades, I don't know. I don't think we can pigeon hole God into one overall decision for all suicide situations.


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## sonofagun

letsgohuntin said:


> I wasn't really considering the dying with sin in my statement,  just the fact that, in my opinion, if one feels they have no other choice but to die that they have denied _all trust _in God and his ability to help them. If they don't trust him in their greatest time of need, how can they claim the Lord be their savior?
> 
> Now if they all go to hades, I don't know. I don't think we can pigeon hole God into one overall decision for all suicide situations.



You have a circular error.  Claiming the Lord to be our savior is a confession that we are sinners (past, present, and future).  If I sin by suicide, I know that Jesus will forgive me.  He wrote a blank check with his blood.  Eventhough, I try my best not to sin (I'm far from perfect), and be a better person each day.  He will never turn his back on me.

That is faith my friend


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## Big Texun

HandgunHTR said:


> Committing suicide shows a true lack of faith in your Savior.  It is written that God will not put more on you than you can handle.  So in order to commit suicide you have to _not_ believe that, also you have to _not_ believe that your Savior can help you through any troubles.  Therefore, how will you be able to stand in judgement and say that you truly believe that Jesus is your Savior when you didn't believe what was written in His Word?



True depression is a disease, just like cancer or diabetes. Despite what many think, it is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, not a lack of faith.

The victim of true clinical depression, because of this chemical imbalance, truly believes that everyone around him or her would be better off if they were not alive. 

Now, with all that said... and those are facts... I've sat in church and heard well meaning pastors proclaim that if all people believed in Jesus, there would be no more people taking anti-depressants and committing suicide. The truth is, these same proclamations cause Christians to avoid reaching out for help when they have the DISEASE... Untreated, the disease leads to suicide. It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with a lack of faith. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Pretty heavy for a first post, huh? I can already tell I'm gonna have fun here!

Blessings to all,
Big Tex


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## letsgohuntin

sonofagun said:


> You have a circular error.  Claiming the Lord to be our savior is a confession that we are sinners (past, present, and future).  If I sin by suicide, I know that Jesus will forgive me.  He wrote a blank check with his blood.  Eventhough, I try my best not to sin (I'm far from perfect), and be a better person each day.  He will never turn his back on me.
> 
> That is faith my friend



Sorry, I guess I can not explain my thoughts on this well enough!   

Again, my argument is not if the actual act is forgiven or not, but the fact that, at the point of your final decision you have basically cast God out of your life and are taking matters into your own hands. To me, that signifies that you are not where you need to be with the Lord or that you have turned your back on God. At that point, he is _not_ your savior.


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## JerkBait

Big Texun said:


> True depression is a disease, just like cancer or diabetes. Despite what many think, it is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain, not a lack of faith.
> 
> The victim of true clinical depression, because of this chemical imbalance, truly believes that everyone around him or her would be better off if they were not alive.
> 
> Now, with all that said... and those are facts... I've sat in church and heard well meaning pastors proclaim that if all people believed in Jesus, there would be no more people taking anti-depressants and committing suicide. The truth is, these same proclamations cause Christians to avoid reaching out for help when they have the DISEASE... Untreated, the disease leads to suicide. It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with a lack of faith. It is a chemical imbalance in the brain.
> 
> Pretty heavy for a first post, huh? I can already tell I'm gonna have fun here!
> 
> Blessings to all,
> Big Tex




i dont agree. the "disease" and "drug" phenomenon has just swept the country in the past 20 or so years. All these drugs werent needed up until now and they arent needed now. And yes i know people who are very close to me who say they are highly depressed and they need their meds. I also know that the situation that they are in is their fault. They do not want to deal with it so they just take more meds instead of fixing the problem, moving on, and finding joy in their life.

 I think its a lazy cop out to not deal with their problems and their situation. 

God can do anything without the aid of medication. People can choose the attitude and outlook on life that they want to have. You get out of it what you put it in.

Personally, I dont believe in the chemical inbalance stuff. I think its just another thing like ADD/ADHD where its an easy excuse to: 

1)TAKE MEDICINE
2)Make the doctors and pharmacists more money
3) Not deal with an uneasy or uncomfortable situation or problem. 

Just like ADD/ADHD, Depression is more of a DISORDER, not a disease. I have yet to see proof that either of these are a disease aside from someone simply telling me that they are. Where is the factual proof? Enlighten me....

Do away with the medicine, STOP blaming chemical inbalances for the pitiful state one has let their mind slip into, change what needs to be changed in your life, find joy in God and his blessings, and move on. 

*Ive not met one person yet who was depressed and took medicine to make them all better. The medicine has only made them dependant on it and overall has made the situation worse. *

Thats just my insignificant opinion. Im not trying to argue with anyone. Ive read some crazy theories on this thread so i figured id throw in a curve ball to see who all wants to set me straight.


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## Rich Kaminski

Anyone commiting suicide is temporarily not in their right mind (who would want their family to lose out on all that insurance money, even if you were dying) or in so much pain that they can't stand it. Either way I do not believe that God would not allow that person to enter into heaven, as long as they believed and lived a good clean life all along or made a commitment to change to a live a good life and then did.


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## daisy102998

I have considered suicide several times during cancer treatment and the death of my father.  Sometimes death looks so much better than life.  I do believe you go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- for it.  It is a sin no more or less than other sins.  Just my thoghts.  I could find no reference to it.


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## Milkman

JerkBait said:


> i dont agree. the "disease" and "drug" phenomenon has just swept the country in the past 20 or so years. All these drugs werent needed up until now and they arent needed now. And yes i know people who are very close to me who say they are highly depressed and they need their meds. I also know that the situation that they are in is their fault. They do not want to deal with it so they just take more meds instead of fixing the problem, moving on, and finding joy in their life.
> 
> I think its a lazy cop out to not deal with their problems and their situation.
> 
> God can do anything without the aid of medication. People can choose the attitude and outlook on life that they want to have. You get out of it what you put it in.
> 
> Personally, I dont believe in the chemical inbalance stuff. I think its just another thing like ADD/ADHD where its an easy excuse to:
> 
> 1)TAKE MEDICINE
> 2)Make the doctors and pharmacists more money
> 3) Not deal with an uneasy or uncomfortable situation or problem.
> 
> Just like ADD/ADHD, Depression is more of a DISORDER, not a disease. I have yet to see proof that either of these are a disease aside from someone simply telling me that they are. Where is the factual proof? Enlighten me....
> 
> Do away with the medicine, STOP blaming chemical inbalances for the pitiful state one has let their mind slip into, change what needs to be changed in your life, find joy in God and his blessings, and move on.
> 
> *Ive not met one person yet who was depressed and took medicine to make them all better. The medicine has only made them dependant on it and overall has made the situation worse. *
> 
> Thats just my insignificant opinion. Im not trying to argue with anyone. Ive read some crazy theories on this thread so i figured id throw in a curve ball to see who all wants to set me straight.



You and I are both entitled to our insignificant opinions . It is obvious that you have never had to deal with depression and you are lucky in that regard. If you had you wouldnt have the opinions you claim to have about the matter.
I cannot give any clincial data to prove to you the condition exists, I am not an expert. There are plenty who have expertise in the matter and hope some will offer evidence to you and any others who doubt that depression exists.

As far as the reference to diagnosing and treating depression being some thing that came along in the past 20 years or so,.......................  we didnt have the ability to treat the body for infection until the past century when antibiotics were discovered and implemented into the treatment of infection............ I suppose the same logic applies to this, since there wasnt a treatment it didnt exist

There is still much room for research and improvement in the way we diagnose and treat depression. It is real.


----------



## hevishot

JerkBait said:


> i dont agree. the "disease" and "drug" phenomenon has just swept the country in the past 20 or so years. All these drugs werent needed up until now and they arent needed now. And yes i know people who are very close to me who say they are highly depressed and they need their meds. I also know that the situation that they are in is their fault. They do not want to deal with it so they just take more meds instead of fixing the problem, moving on, and finding joy in their life.
> 
> I think its a lazy cop out to not deal with their problems and their situation.
> 
> God can do anything without the aid of medication. People can choose the attitude and outlook on life that they want to have. You get out of it what you put it in.
> 
> Personally, I dont believe in the chemical inbalance stuff. I think its just another thing like ADD/ADHD where its an easy excuse to:
> 
> 1)TAKE MEDICINE
> 2)Make the doctors and pharmacists more money
> 3) Not deal with an uneasy or uncomfortable situation or problem.
> 
> Just like ADD/ADHD, Depression is more of a DISORDER, not a disease. I have yet to see proof that either of these are a disease aside from someone simply telling me that they are. Where is the factual proof? Enlighten me....
> 
> Do away with the medicine, STOP blaming chemical inbalances for the pitiful state one has let their mind slip into, change what needs to be changed in your life, find joy in God and his blessings, and move on.
> 
> *Ive not met one person yet who was depressed and took medicine to make them all better. The medicine has only made them dependant on it and overall has made the situation worse. *
> 
> Thats just my insignificant opinion. Im not trying to argue with anyone. Ive read some crazy theories on this thread so i figured id throw in a curve ball to see who all wants to set me straight.



if you dont believe that depression is a "real" disease and that chemical inbalance in the brain is real, then you are about as wrong as a person could be.....


----------



## Big Texun

JerkBait said:


> i dont agree. the "disease" and "drug" phenomenon has just swept the country in the past 20 or so years. All these drugs werent needed up until now and they arent needed now. And yes i know people who are very close to me who say they are highly depressed and they need their meds. I also know that the situation that they are in is their fault. They do not want to deal with it so they just take more meds instead of fixing the problem, moving on, and finding joy in their life.
> 
> I think its a lazy cop out to not deal with their problems and their situation.
> 
> God can do anything without the aid of medication. People can choose the attitude and outlook on life that they want to have. You get out of it what you put it in.
> 
> Personally, I dont believe in the chemical inbalance stuff. I think its just another thing like ADD/ADHD where its an easy excuse to:
> 
> 1)TAKE MEDICINE
> 2)Make the doctors and pharmacists more money
> 3) Not deal with an uneasy or uncomfortable situation or problem.
> 
> Just like ADD/ADHD, Depression is more of a DISORDER, not a disease. I have yet to see proof that either of these are a disease aside from someone simply telling me that they are. Where is the factual proof? Enlighten me....
> 
> Do away with the medicine, STOP blaming chemical inbalances for the pitiful state one has let their mind slip into, change what needs to be changed in your life, find joy in God and his blessings, and move on.
> 
> *Ive not met one person yet who was depressed and took medicine to make them all better. The medicine has only made them dependant on it and overall has made the situation worse. *
> 
> Thats just my insignificant opinion. Im not trying to argue with anyone. Ive read some crazy theories on this thread so i figured id throw in a curve ball to see who all wants to set me straight.



Let me start by saying, I totally agree with you that meds and / or overdiagnosis is clearly rampant in our country. Feelings of sadness and "depression" are common emotions that healthy people encounter at many times during their lifetime. These are healthy people that, from what they've heard, just want an easy fix. It is easy to get the meds so, they get them. Since they were healthy to begin with, the meds don't help. This is what you have seen... and I totally agree. I submit, that these healthy people are RARELY the ones that actually commit suicide. They are healthy. Healthy people think logically. Logical people don't kill themselves.

A person that truly has clinical depression is not healthy and does not think logically. For them, the meds are not a "happy pill that solves all their problems." The meds simply correct the chemical imbalance in their brain so that they can think logically and cope.  For these people, the meds are literally a life saving gift from God. The meds don't make them happy or "drunk" or even change their personality one iota. They simply enable them to think logically and cope. 

As Christians, we see the healthy people claiming that they are depressed and taking the meds. We can clearly see that they have either been deceived and / or are deceiving themselves. We judge them. This judging causes people that are UNHEALTHY to avoid seeking help.

Why have you never seen the meds help anyone? Its simple: The healthy people that have been deceived talk about it. The UNHEALTHY people that really really really need it, are hiding in the closet. They may be sitting in the pew next to you because their wife drug them to church, hoping that God would help make them better. They may be reading this forum. But, since true depression tends to make people have feelings of tremendous unworthiness, rarely will they talk about it... or anything else for that matter... except with people that are extremely close.

So, unless you have had someone that is extremely close to you suffer from true depression, you've never seen it. You've seen lots of healthy people claiming it... but, you've never seen it. The problem is, Christians judge the "posers" and the "real cases" get caught in shotgun pattern.  

If anyone that reads these words has had thoughts of suicide, or has a wife or child in a similar situation... PLEASE call me. I can help. My cell number is 678.386.6165.

Blessings to All,
Big Tex


----------



## JerkBait

hevishot said:


> if you dont believe that depression is a "real" disease and that chemical inbalance in the brain is real, then you are about as wrong as a person could be.....



I believe that depression is real but i do not think that it is a disease in the same aspect of other diseases such as cancer and leukemia. I feel that a person can control their mind and how they look at life. 

What gets me is how everyone talks so highly of god, and their faith in god, then they get on threads about suicide and act like depression is unavoidable. Like i said earlier, i know lots of people who are "depressed" and its not because something went wrong in their brain or because of some chemical inbalance. ITS BECAUSE of their situation that they are in. One lady i know is depressed because she married a jobess drunk and she is upset over the life she has chosen. Another person i know who is depressed is unhappy because theyve always been a drug addict and they live a hopeless life.

These folks depression was caused by the occurences in life that bring them down. not because they just one day contracted depression. Clinically diagnosed, yea sure but obtained the same way as other diseases, nope.


----------



## hevishot

You are soooooo wrong dude...so wrong. Starting to look a bit silly Im afraid....


----------



## JerkBait

Big Texun said:


> Let me start by saying, I totally agree with you that meds and / or overdiagnosis is clearly rampant in our country. Feelings of sadness and "depression" are common emotions that healthy people encounter at many times during their lifetime. These are healthy people that, from what they've heard, just want an easy fix. It is easy to get the meds so, they get them. Since they were healthy to begin with, the meds don't help. This is what you have seen... and I totally agree. I submit, that these healthy people are RARELY the ones that actually commit suicide. They are healthy. Healthy people think logically. Logical people don't kill themselves.
> 
> A person that truly has clinical depression is not healthy and does not think logically. For them, the meds are not a "happy pill that solves all their problems." The meds simply correct the chemical imbalance in their brain so that they can think logically and cope.  For these people, the meds are literally a life saving gift from God. The meds don't make them happy or "drunk" or even change their personality one iota. They simply enable them to think logically and cope.
> 
> As Christians, we see the healthy people claiming that they are depressed and taking the meds. We can clearly see that they have either been deceived and / or are deceiving themselves. We judge them. This judging causes people that are UNHEALTHY to avoid seeking help.
> 
> Why have you never seen the meds help anyone? Its simple: The healthy people that have been deceived talk about it. The UNHEALTHY people that really really really need it, are hiding in the closet. They may be sitting in the pew next to you because their wife drug them to church, hoping that God would help make them better. They may be reading this forum. But, since true depression tends to make people have feelings of tremendous unworthiness, rarely will they talk about it... or anything else for that matter... except with people that are extremely close.
> 
> So, unless you have had someone that is extremely close to you suffer from true depression, you've never seen it. You've seen lots of healthy people claiming it... but, you've never seen it. The problem is, Christians judge the "posers" and the "real cases" get caught in shotgun pattern.
> 
> If anyone that reads these words has had thoughts of suicide, or has a wife or child in a similar situation... PLEASE call me. I can help. My cell number is 678.386.6165.
> 
> Blessings to All,
> Big Tex





Very good points texun. I agree with what you are saying. I would say that 90% of the people i know just take the medicine to not deal with life. Ive been very down before over things in my life that seemed hopeless but the only thing, THE ONLY THING, that brought me back is GOD. Ive had some drugs, and ive had some drinks, but neither one could bring back the fulfillment and joy back into my life. Only God can. I strongly believe that God can do it to the ones who are seriously depressed. Matter of fact, I KNOW God can get them out of their slump. As christians, we can do all things through God who strengthens us. Thats why i believe more times than not the drugs are an easy way out and an easy way to not have to deal with life.

Good post Texun.


----------



## JerkBait

hevishot said:


> You are soooooo wrong dude...so wrong. Starting to look a bit silly Im afraid....



well thanks for just telling me im wrong and not backing up your belief. It helps me see it your way alot better.....


----------



## hevishot

my grandmother was the  most devout Christian lady I have ever known or known of. When she turned 68 she began to have terrible bouts of depression. This was a lady without a care in the world and pretty much LIVED at the church, where her wonderful husband was a Decon and had been for years. She battled this all the way up till her death just a few years ago (at the age of 88). So Jerkbait, what you are spewing is again, stuff you just dont know about. Her Dr's could put into plain english exactely what the chemical problem was in her brain but I can assure you this, God was #1 in her life until the day she passed to be with my grandad. You dont know it all bud-...it might be in your best interest to quit acting like you do....jmo.


----------



## Lead Poison

Here are my thoughts about depression...

It is a real disease.

It can be misdiagnosed.

It can be treatable.

Medication can be a huge benefit.

Some medications are better than others with less side effects.


----------



## hevishot

on the money Lp..


----------



## JerkBait

hevishot said:


> my grandmother was the  most devout Christian lady I have ever known or known of. When she turned 68 she began to have terrible bouts of depression. This was a lady without a care in the world and pretty much LIVED at the church, where her wonderful husband was a Decon and had been for years. She battled this all the way up till her death just a few years ago (at the age of 88). So Jerkbait, what you are spewing is again, stuff you just dont know about. Her Dr's could put into plain english exactely what the chemical problem was in her brain but I can assure you this, God was #1 in her life until the day she passed to be with my grandad. You dont know it all bud-...it might be in your best interest to quit acting like you do....jmo.



sorry to hear that.



And acting like i know stuff and expressing my opinion are two very different things. I dont know much of anything, only how i feel about this. 

The people i know who are depressed caused it themselves for the most part and could do alot to change their situation. Saying theyre depressed and taking medication is just an easy way not to deal with life for them. Thats why ive found it hard to believe that it just happens to someone. but i believe you.....


----------



## Milkman

Lead Poison said:


> Here are my thoughts about depression...
> 
> It is a real disease.
> 
> It can be misdiagnosed.
> 
> It can be treatable.
> 
> Medication can be a huge benefit.
> 
> Some medications are better than others with less side effects.



Very sensible post with some facts.  Some depression is not successfully treated though. Some just cant handle the strain of day to day life and it sends them over the edge. Those of us left behind see it much more clearly after the fact.


----------



## Milkman

JerkBait said:


> The people i know who are depressed caused it themselves for the most part and could do alot to change their situation. Saying theyre depressed and taking medication is just an easy way not to deal with life for them. Thats why ive found it hard to believe that it just happens to someone. but i believe you.....



The people you mentioned are probably not clinically depressed, theirs is due to a situation or circumstance. Clinical depression is not due to circumstance, as Hevi stated, it comes on without apparant cause.


----------



## JerkBait

Milkman said:


> The people you mentioned are probably not clinically depressed, theirs is due to a situation or circumstance. Clinical depression is not due to circumstance, as Hevi stated, it comes on without apparant cause.



well i dont know if anyone around me is clinically depressed. I know what i see, that is called depression, and ive based my assumptions on that. so when i hear depression i think of my sorry relative who put themselves into depression. when hevi hears depression he thinks of his grandmother who just became depressed. theres obviously two forms if not more. I dont see the problem with me explaining the way i see it......


----------



## hevishot

it just makes you look well, foolish to continue to post opinions on things you dont know enough about to even HAVE an opinion about.


----------



## JerkBait

hevishot said:


> it just makes you look well, foolish to continue to post opinions on things you dont know enough about to even HAVE an opinion about.



and it shows your patience when you criticize me instead of explaining to me more about the "disease" so ill be more informed. 


You ask how i feel (indirectly) and then get upset over what i say cause its not how you feel. I think that would fall into the foolish bracket also. Especially when you become defensive and criticize me before you fully explain your side.


----------



## deerdog

*suicide*

concerning your question on suicide  i dont believe you  can go to heaven because the bible did say thou shalt not kill and i  believe that ment your self to.


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## JerkBait

deerdog said:


> concerning your question on suicide  i dont believe you  can go to heaven because the bible did say thou shalt not kill and i  believe that ment your self to.



so your saying that breaking a commandment is enough to lose your salvation?


----------



## choctawlb

Ladies and Gentleman,
I think this is a question only God can answer. Most folks that commit suicide are suffering from an illness of some type, mental or otherwise, and are not in full mental control of the situation. "Judge not least you be not judged."
Ken


----------



## jimmy_mac

*Just a thought...*

If you had a good friend or family memeber that took his/her own life would you love or care for them any less?
I wouldn't, now I would be angry at them for their poor choice, but would care about them just the same. Same with our Heavenly Father, He loves each of His children unconditionally and wants the best for them. See our God is so great that He allows each of us to choose. None of us always make the right choices, but He ( God) loves us just the same as He did before we made our bad choice. Would our Heavenly Father cast us into the pit for a bad choice?? I think not. Kind of like a parent threwing their child into the street because they made a bad choice about something. Now as parents they would not be happy with the child, but never the less would continue to love them just the same. I am not saying that there's not punishment that goes along with bad choices, there are, but being cast away ain't it. These are just my thoughts...right, wrong, or indifferent. I just know in my heart that my God would not threw me away for a bad choice I make.


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## farmasis

The Bible does not make a case for a Christian whom commits suicide and goes to the firey pit. Conversely, it states the opposite.

Mark 3
28I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."


----------



## sonofagun

deerdog said:


> concerning your question on suicide  i dont believe you  can go to heaven because the bible did say thou shalt not kill and i  believe that ment your self to.



Why do you think Jesus died on the cross?  ... to forgive us


----------



## Israel

*we all fall short, but*

If those that are led by the spirit are the sons of God (not those on church rolls, not those who confess some religious experience, not those who claim some sect, not those who make any claim about themselves whatsoever) then the question would have to be: 
"Would the spirit of God ever lead a man to commit suicide?"
All other hypotheticals are vain. As for "accidents" there is no such thing in the universe of a child of God. 
Accidents are for unbelievers. Jesus is Lord of all. Right down to hair and sparrows, atoms and whatever is smaller that that. 
Would any of us have to wonder for any length of time that if God wanted to take us in our sin he hasn't had ample opportunity?


----------



## farmasis

Israel said:


> If those that are led by the spirit are the sons of God (not those on church rolls, not those who confess some religious experience, not those who claim some sect, not those who make any claim about themselves whatsoever) then the question would have to be:
> "Would the spirit of God ever lead a man to commit suicide?"
> All other hypotheticals are vain. As for "accidents" there is no such thing in the universe of a child of God.
> Accidents are for unbelievers. Jesus is Lord of all. Right down to hair and sparrows, atoms and whatever is smaller that that.
> Would any of us have to wonder for any length of time that if God wanted to take us in our sin he hasn't had ample opportunity?


 
So, if I commit any sin, I am not really God's child.
Do you sin?


----------



## JerkBait

farmasis said:


> So, if I commit any sin, I am not really God's child.
> Do you sin?



i dont see where he implied that at all through his post.


----------



## Israel

farmasis said:


> So, if I commit any sin, I am not really God's child.
> Do you sin?



That's all "I" can do is sin.
It is the "yet not I" that keeps me...and if you belong to him, you, too.


----------



## droptine20

no..life is something given by our lord and savoir and should be taken by him as well..


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## droptine20

thats just my opinion but this is a great point.


----------



## farmasis

JerkBait said:


> i dont see where he implied that at all through his post.


 
Maybe I am reading it wrong, but that is all I see.

I can assure you, there will be some that have committed suicide in heaven.


----------



## Israel

I can assure you. Only what belongs to Jesus remains with Jesus.
As to your use of Mark 3, I would ask what you believe constitutes the blasphemy mentioned. (Please note that my "if" suggestions are not meant in any way to limit nor cover every possible understanding.)
If rejection of the gospel and the Lordship of Jesus is your answer, then I would have to ask who has the Lord ever led to suicide. Paul said he despaired of life, yet the Lord made his ownership of Paul quite plain by delivering him from despair. Submitting to death and suicide are two very different things. If Jesus is Lord in word only, he's no fool.
If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit only involves attributing the works of Jesus to the devil, then all who neither believe in Jesus, nor the devil will be saved? That could be a strict rendition of that verse "all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven". Is there salvation for the faithless? There are many who qualify because they believe the devil (as well as Jesus) to be a myth, and therefore attribute nothing to either of them. Therefore, even their faithlessness is forgiven.
I am of this opinion only: the Lord knows and saves his own. And whether any man is or isn't the Lord's own the Lord alone knows...and those to whom it has been revealed. These questions of "can a man do this or that and still go to heaven" are as senseless as they are useless. One might ask, "can a man preach the gospel and go to heaven? Can a man commit adultery and go to heaven? Can a man give all his goods and his body to be burned and go to heaven?" 
A man can receive nothing except it be given him from above. 
And this I have received from the Lord, there is always time for repentance until there isn't.


----------



## farmasis

Israel said:


> I can assure you. Only what belongs to Jesus remains with Jesus.


 
..and I can assure you that nothing can separate a child of God from his love. That is a promise God gave to John to tell us in Romans 8. It includes death.



> As to your use of Mark 3, I would ask what you believe constitutes the blasphemy mentioned. (Please note that my "if" suggestions are not meant in any way to limit nor cover every possible understanding.)
> If rejection of the gospel and the Lordship of Jesus is your answer, then I would have to ask who has the Lord ever led to suicide. Paul said he despaired of life, yet the Lord made his ownership of Paul quite plain by delivering him from despair. Submitting to death and suicide are two very different things. If Jesus is Lord in word only, he's no fool.


 
Blasphamy of the Holy spirit is described in the Bible as attribyting God's powers to evil or to deny the Holy Spirit's calling. Any sin is done by Christian when we reject what we should do and give into flesh.



> If blasphemy of the Holy Spirit only involves attributing the works of Jesus to the devil, then all who neither believe in Jesus, nor the devil will be saved?


 
Is there another way?



> That could be a strict rendition of that verse "all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven". Is there salvation for the faithless? There are many who qualify because they believe the devil (as well as Jesus) to be a myth, and therefore attribute nothing to either of them. Therefore, even their faithlessness is forgiven.


 
Nope, you must believe Jesus is the way, truth and the life and that there is no other way to the Father but through him.



> I am of this opinion only: the Lord knows and saves his own. And whether any man is or isn't the Lord's own the Lord alone knows...and those to whom it has been revealed. These questions of "can a man do this or that and still go to heaven" are as senseless as they are useless. One might ask, "can a man preach the gospel and go to heaven? Can a man commit adultery and go to heaven? Can a man give all his goods and his body to be burned and go to heaven?"
> A man can receive nothing except it be given him from above.
> And this I have received from the Lord, there is always time for repentance until there isn't.


 
Okie dokie, but the Bible teaches me that we do know if we are saved. It gives a clear explanation of what is needed to done in order to have the blessed hope in a savior. God desires to save all, but knows all will not accept him.
I think it is important to know that you can turn your back on God, be a sinner, and do little works and still know that you are still covered under the new covenant because if we all are truthful, we have all turned our back on God, sinned and have not done things for others when we had the opportunity. That is why grace is so special.


----------



## Big Texun

JerkBait said:


> Very good points texun. I agree with what you are saying. I would say that 90% of the people i know just take the medicine to not deal with life. Ive been very down before over things in my life that seemed hopeless but the only thing, THE ONLY THING, that brought me back is GOD. Ive had some drugs, and ive had some drinks, but neither one could bring back the fulfillment and joy back into my life. Only God can. I strongly believe that God can do it to the ones who are seriously depressed. Matter of fact, I KNOW God can get them out of their slump. As christians, we can do all things through God who strengthens us. Thats why i believe more times than not the drugs are an easy way out and an easy way to not have to deal with life.
> 
> Good post Texun.



Jerkbait,

Again we agree: I KNOW God can get a clinically depressed person "out of his or her slump"... just like I also KNOW that God can cause a miraculous recovery for a person with cancer.  The bible says it and I believe it. I have also seen it. It IS very true.

Now, let me ask you...

Does the person that has been diagnosed with cancer lack faith because they choose to undergo chemotherapy? Does the diabetic lack faith that chooses to take insulin? After all, the true believer KNOWS that God has the power to heal them.

I say it again... Clinical depression is a life threatening illness. Its rampant over-diagnosis causes many well meaning people, like you, to misunderstand it... but, make no mistake, it is an illness... caused by an imbalance of a chemical in the brain. This chemical is called seratonin.

Jerkbait, the people that you know, the ones that whine about their self-induced problems... the only help they get from the "meds" is perhaps a placebo effect. I suspect the prescribing doctors know it and are happy to take their money.

The doctors have little risk on over prescribing; If you, with a proper seratonin balance in your brain (healthy), started taking anti-depressants today, you would feel no different now, tonight, tomorrow, or ever. You wouldn't feel happier, less sad, drunk, dizzy, or anything. You might have a dry mouth for a few days but, that's the only way you'd know you were taking the pills.  

For the person that lacks this seratonin in their brain however, the supplemental seratonin makes a HUGE difference.

I hope this helps,

Big Tex


----------



## ChuckyBoy

Suicide is and should be rare among Christians. Saul took his own life after being wounded and was seen with the prophet Samuel.


----------



## JerkBait

Big Texun said:


> Jerkbait,
> 
> Again we agree: I KNOW God can get a clinically depressed person "out of his or her slump"... just like I also KNOW that God can cause a miraculous recovery for a person with cancer.  The bible says it and I believe it. I have also seen it. It IS very true.



agreed.



Big Texun said:


> Now, let me ask you...
> 
> Does the person that has been diagnosed with cancer lack faith because they choose to undergo chemotherapy? Does the diabetic lack faith that chooses to take insulin? After all, the true believer KNOWS that God has the power to heal them.



no they dont lack faith. and the person with clinical depression does not lack faith. the person who CAN get themsleves out of their slump does seem to lack faith though when they dont trust in god and move on with their life. 

Ok- theres CLINICAL depression and theres the depression that i witness first hand which does not seem to be clinical.



Big Texun said:


> I say it again... Clinical depression is a life threatening illness. Its rampant over-diagnosis causes many well meaning people, like you, to misunderstand it... but, make no mistake, it is an illness... caused by an imbalance of a chemical in the brain. This chemical is called seratonin.



i will agree that judging from what i see, it is over diagnosed. thank you for acknowleding my "well meaning" here in this thread. my friend hevishot seems to not think my intentions are good even though ive done nothing to show him otherwise.



Big Texun said:


> Jerkbait, the people that you know, the ones that whine about their self-induced problems... the only help they get from the "meds" is perhaps a placebo effect. I suspect the prescribing doctors know it and are happy to take their money.



Im glad we agree that there are people with self induced problems that lead to their "depression". I think its possible that it is a placebo effect but i feel that the folks i know do actually feel good when on the medication due to some meds mind altering effects. I think that they also become dependant on the medication and there in itself lies another problem. These people are some that lead me to have the outlook ive had on the topic. I also agree that most, not all but most,doctors are happy either way as long as they are making their money. I say most but not all because the doctor that my girlfriend works for rarely prescribes medicine to help people cope with anything. 



Big Texun said:


> The doctors have little risk on over prescribing; If you, with a proper seratonin balance in your brain (healthy), started taking anti-depressants today, you would feel no different now, tonight, tomorrow, or ever. You wouldn't feel happier, less sad, drunk, dizzy, or anything. You might have a dry mouth for a few days but, that's the only way you'd know you were taking the pills.



I believe you when you say that but the people that i know are affected by the drugs. They are somewhat detached from reality. Im not sure what they are on but it is having an affect on them. My dads boss comes to work with a out of touch with reality glow about him everyday. From reading your posts i get the feeling that medicine prescribed for "clinical" depression is different from the medicine my "friends" take. I think that the folks i know just take "feel good" medicine.....



Big Texun said:


> For the person that lacks this seratonin in their brain however, the supplemental seratonin makes a HUGE difference.



I truly believe you but ive personally never witnessed this, and that is where ive struggled to see the direct results of medication and "clinical" depression.



Big Texun said:


> I hope this helps,
> 
> Big Tex



it does, thanks for being considerate and understanding.


----------



## Israel

Okie dokie, but the Bible teaches me that we do know if we are saved. It gives a clear explanation of what is needed to done in order to have the blessed hope in a savior. God desires to save all, but knows all will not accept him.
I think it is important to know that you can turn your back on God, be a sinner, and do little works and still know that you are still covered under the new covenant because if we all are truthful, we have all turned our back on God, sinned and have not done things for others when we had the opportunity. That is why grace is so special.[/QUOTE] Original post by Farmasis

Strange, isn't it, that Paul would be concerned about being adokimos (castaway, rejected), while some think:
"it is important to know that you can turn your back on God, be a sinner, and do little works and still know that you are still covered under the new covenant" 

Why would anyone say what the Holy Spirit would never lead a man to broadcast? (I may order rye bread or wheat bread with my breakfast, but the moment I add the Lord's name to it, I'd better be sure it's according to his instruction) 

Saying the bible teaches it's "OK to turn your back on God "(salvationwise), puts the lie to every warning every faithful messenger has ever given regarding watching your affections, beware of deception, and as one great translation put it "don't be doing experiments with God's patience". 

Paul wept and anguished so his "children" wouldn't be misled. Today men preach "OSAS" and get another pork chop (OR chicken breast) off the barbeque. Sometimes I think we mistake fancy watches, pinky rings on sausage fingers and gold necklaces with "being in chains for Christ". 
Yes, God loves the obese, before one asks. And God even loves men who adorn and primp like women for the approval of other men. (Have you ever seen so called churches compete for members?) Success attracts the successful, who would want to follow someone like Paul...poor, despised, weak looking, maybe even an inferior orator in comparison to some...yet so many of us assume we would roll out the red carpet for him.

Why would you make the New Covenant something like getting a ticket punched for a train trip? As though some action of mine, no matter how superficial or vain, ensures my position in God's grace. One may say,  "Well the bible says if I confess this, I am saved. " Yes, and the Bible also says "many will come in that day calling me Lord Lord..." One does not contradict the other, but I surely had better understand what it means when one says "Lord". Or at least know that if I do not know...there is one who is going to make sure that with his discipline and chastening I learn what it means. And it surely doesn't mean I have been set free to follow my own lusts. 

And I  tell you this by the Holy Spirit, if a man takes comfort knowing he can turn his back on the one who gave himself for him because he has placed the lover of his soul under some sort of hocus pocus obligation to receive him because of some incantation, that man is practicing witchcraft. 
The bible says many things. None are without importance. But none mean anything apart from the revelation of the Holy Spirit. 

But it is good to see these things written and hear what others who claim the Lord's name say. It helps me understand the significance of the spirit's instruction to watch and pray.


----------



## Big Texun

JerkBait said:


> no they dont lack faith. and the person with clinical depression does not lack faith. the person who CAN get themsleves out of their slump does seem to lack faith though when they dont trust in god and move on with their life.



Jerkbait, I submit to you that nearly EVERYONE lacks total faith at their very core. Jesus said, "And why do you worry?" Who here can say that they have never worried about anything?



JerkBait said:


> Im glad we agree that there are people with self induced problems that lead to their "depression". I think its possible that it is a placebo effect but i feel that the folks i know do actually feel good when on the medication due to some meds mind altering effects. I think that they also become dependant on the medication and there in itself lies another problem.



Jerkbait, anti-depressant meds do not alter the mind. The power of suggestion (eg: the placebo effect) CAN alter the mind. When I was a young man, I knew people that would take one small sip of beer and start acting drunk. My point? Sometimes people behave differently when they subconsciously think they are either supposed to... or have an excuse to.  One small sip of beer does not make a person drunk... but, many people that take a small sip of beer behave drunk. Anti-depressants do not alter people's minds... but, if they think they do, they do. More importantly, if they, even subconsciously, think that taking the meds gives them the excuse to mentally "check out", they will. (Note: I'm not talking about meds for ADD in children.. a different topic altogether)



JerkBait said:


> These people are some that lead me to have the outlook ive had on the topic.



I hope that through this conversation, your outlook has changed. Has it?




JerkBait said:


> I believe you when you say that but the people that i know are affected by the drugs. They are somewhat detached from reality. Im not sure what they are on but it is having an affect on them. My dads boss comes to work with a out of touch with reality glow about him everyday. From reading your posts i get the feeling that medicine prescribed for "clinical" depression is different from the medicine my "friends" take. I think that the folks i know just take "feel good" medicine.....



Nope, they are taking the same meds. As described above, it ISN't the meds that make them behave differently - it is their ability to use them as an "excuse" or a "crutch" for avoiding their problems that causes their behavioral changes.

Either way, here's a very important question for you. These people that you know... they need your love, not your judging. Are you willing to extend it?


----------



## farmasis

Israel said:


> Strange, isn't it, that Paul would be concerned about being adokimos (castaway, rejected), while some think:
> "it is important to know that you can turn your back on God, be a sinner, and do little works and still know that you are still covered under the new covenant"
> 
> Why would anyone say what the Holy Spirit would never lead a man to broadcast? (I may order rye bread or wheat bread with my breakfast, but the moment I add the Lord's name to it, I'd better be sure it's according to his instruction)
> 
> Saying the bible teaches it's "OK to turn your back on God "(salvationwise), puts the lie to every warning every faithful messenger has ever given regarding watching your affections, beware of deception, and as one great translation put it "don't be doing experiments with God's patience".


 
Saying that you can lose your salvation makes God a liar and cheapens grace. Did not say it is OK to turn your back on God, but his promises are true and he keeps his covenants even though we cannot.



> Paul wept and anguished so his "children" wouldn't be misled. Today men preach "OSAS" and get another pork chop (OR chicken breast) off the barbeque. Sometimes I think we mistake fancy watches, pinky rings on sausage fingers and gold necklaces with "being in chains for Christ".
> Yes, God loves the obese, before one asks. And God even loves men who adorn and primp like women for the approval of other men. (Have you ever seen so called churches compete for members?) Success attracts the successful, who would want to follow someone like Paul...poor, despised, weak looking, maybe even an inferior orator in comparison to some...yet so many of us assume we would roll out the red carpet for him.


 
I do not understand the point of this drivel at all.



> Why would you make the New Covenant something like getting a ticket punched for a train trip? As though some action of mine, no matter how superficial or vain, ensures my position in God's grace. One may say, "Well the bible says if I confess this, I am saved. " Yes, and the Bible also says "many will come in that day calling me Lord Lord..." One does not contradict the other, but I surely had better understand what it means when one says "Lord". Or at least know that if I do not know...there is one who is going to make sure that with his discipline and chastening I learn what it means. And it surely doesn't mean I have been set free to follow my own lusts.


 
Because it is biblical?
Why would you feel that Jesus's sacrifice was not enough? What was the point of his death? To cover sin for a while?



> And I tell you this by the Holy Spirit, if a man takes comfort knowing he can turn his back on the one who gave himself for him because he has placed the lover of his soul under some sort of hocus pocus obligation to receive him because of some incantation, that man is practicing witchcraft.
> The bible says many things. None are without importance. But none mean anything apart from the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> But it is good to see these things written and hear what others who claim the Lord's name say. It helps me understand the significance of the spirit's instruction to watch and pray.


 
I can tell you that it is a promise from God that all belive in Him shall be saved and nothing can seperate us from the love of God. Jesus himself said that he and the Father are one and nothing can take us out of his hand. Contrary to that is witchcraft my friend and false doctrine.


----------



## Israel

Saying one believes...and believing may be two entirely different things. Jesus makes this plain. Many will come, even calling him Lord, yet he never knew them. 
Truly, Jesus saves all who believe. 
But if that belief ultimately yields something other than obedience, it is not the faith of the son of God. 
God chastens all he receives. Those that do not endure the chastening show themselves to be illegitimate. Running the race with patience doesn't only mean a "good start". 
If believing is ever a past tense affair, then repentance is in order.
And if one can commit suicide "believing" it would surely not be the one who overcame the world that was at the helm. And Jesus has warnings for those (yes, members of the church) in need of repentance...and the judgments that await if they neglect his instruction.
Part of the Lord's salvation is his instruction to wayward ones to repent.
It's the best advice I've ever received.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

Farmasis, do you or do you not believe that a person can accept the Lord Jesus as their savior and then live their life in any worldy fashion that they choose?


----------



## Mel

I didn't read all the posts, I just wanted to share my story.

I was at that point one time.  I had it planned, knew how I would do it and was pretty set on ending it all.  Then I pictured my mom holding my little nephew over my casket and telling him Aunt Mel wasn't coming back and it just broke my heart.  I cried so hard at the thought of leaving them.  Then I knew nothing was worth putting my family through that kinda loss.

I was diagnosed with kidney failure at 16.  I went from a 3.8 GPA top of my class to barely graduating high school.  In my eyes I had no future.  I was on dialysis, I had to have a kidney transplant, didn't go to prom, no boyfriends and pretty much never experienced the things most young people take for granted.

Physical illness affects your head in a big way.  It takes a really determined spirit to fight it.  When you're physically ill, your brain's primary function is survival, keeping your body alive.  There's very little brain energy left for things like "being happy" and focus and concentration.  

So no, its not as easy as just "getting over it" and picking yourself up by the bootstraps.  God saved me that day, he's got bigger plans for me.  That was a long time ago and I thank God every day I'm alive.  

Everything happens for a reason.  So if someone decides its just too much to bear and does take it in their own hands to end their life, God knows, he understands the pain in their heart.

I'm a firm believer in everything happens for a reason and that God is in control.  He's got a plan and maybe as horrible as it is, he uses death to reach others.  I feel blessed to have been through and dealt with what I have.  I feel blessed that he _chose_ me to handle what I have.  

I went from a scared teenager that felt like I was being "punished" to a fairly happy growing adult that now is just loving life.

To answer the original question, I'm not as up to date on Bible scripture as I should be, but I believe, yes, you can commit suicide and go to heaven.  Someone brought up the commandment about Thou Shalt Not Kill.  Well, by that reasoning, wouldn't Adultery and the other commandments also be reason to go to the fiery place?

I don't know, I'm just not one of those fear God types.  I believe He's in control and everything happens for a reason and He's not gonna give you the power to do something and then be like, oh wrong choice there buddy, sorry, see ya.


----------



## farmasis

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Farmasis, do you or do you not believe that a person can accept the Lord Jesus as their savior and then live their life in any worldy fashion that they choose?


 
I don't see how someone could, I would question their sincerity of asking Jesus into their heart when there were no apparent changes in their life. But, that wouldn't be my place so I won't try and evaluate someones heart.

What I am saying is that I have given into my flesh and have sinned, but I feel confident that even in those times my salvation was secure. I am chastized by the Holy Spirit in me during those times, convicted and have always returned and repented, then made improvements in my life to try and not return to where I was. But, had I not had the opportunity to correct my walk, I would have been in heaven.


----------



## jimmy_mac

I am a Born Again Christian, no doubts at all there. What I wonder is how can a God as big and great as my God is to me allow certain things in this world. I suffer daily from Rhem. Arthritis and am allergic to most every medicine there is to treat this junk. I have prayed, begged, pleaded and still no releif. So knowing I am saved, if I were to (I'm Not) take my own life, how can I not go to Heaven? Kind of like asking forgivness for a future sin. Is it forgiven? I don't know.


----------



## hunter_58

yes !


----------



## JerkBait

Big Texun said:


> Jerkbait, I submit to you that nearly EVERYONE lacks total faith at their very core. Jesus said, "And why do you worry?" Who here can say that they have never worried about anything?



youre right everyone could have more faith including me.




Big Texun said:


> Jerkbait, anti-depressant meds do not alter the mind. The power of suggestion (eg: the placebo effect) CAN alter the mind. When I was a young man, I knew people that would take one small sip of beer and start acting drunk. My point? Sometimes people behave differently when they subconsciously think they are either supposed to... or have an excuse to.  One small sip of beer does not make a person drunk... but, many people that take a small sip of beer behave drunk. Anti-depressants do not alter people's minds... but, if they think they do, they do. More importantly, if they, even subconsciously, think that taking the meds gives them the excuse to mentally "check out", they will. (Note: I'm not talking about meds for ADD in children.. a different topic altogether)



i know and understand the placebo effect but some people that i know are on the same meds that highschoolers take to get high like xanax and others like it. I guess they are considered pain killers and not anti deppresant medincines? either way a guy i know takes it but not because he is physically hurting. he takes it cause hes depressed and he wants to feel numb i guess.




Big Texun said:


> I hope that through this conversation, your outlook has changed. Has it?



it has somewhat.




Big Texun said:


> Either way, here's a very important question for you. These people that you know... they need your love, not your judging. Are you willing to extend it?



I do extend love toward them. They are my family and friends so i love them but i do not pity their choices to stay in their "slump".


----------



## farmasis

Big Texun said:


> Jerkbait, anti-depressant meds do not alter the mind.


 
They don't?

Someone owes me a refund on my doctorate degree in Pharmacy.


----------



## Israel

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 

For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Hebrews 6:3-9

I never enjoy being in the place of having to present these scriptures to those who claim the Lord's name. 
I, too, believe God is able to perfect, God is long suffering, God is not an insincere giver, God is not waiting for any to fall away, but patiently working to deliver all his children from destruction to light eternal in his son Jesus.
But I can no more dismiss the above scriptures for their stern warning than I can dismiss the comforts found in scriptures such as have been mentioned..."nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"
There are many other scriptures with instructions to believers to repent, and I trust none would argue that even and especially one who has come to the Lord knows the benefit of such. None of us are yet perfect. 
But the question remians...and I will phrase it as I see it:

Has the Lord set us so free that we can walk away from him if we desire? And if we do, is there any obligation on his part, in light of all these warnings (in the BIble) and (I am convinced) ...all the warnings that he will arrange (in real time) to dissuade us from such, to receive us back to himself should we continue to resist his supplictaions? 
I can understand how some, myself included, may find it important to testify that the Lord is faithful when we are not. 
But that would not extend to erasing a line that I know from the scriptures and the spirit exists...that a man can reject the goodness of God, even after he has tasted it. Indeed, my testimony of God's faithfulness in the face of my disobedience is only this...Don't turn your wayward tending feet to any side of the path...for two reasons
1. God deserves our full attention...not because he is some demanding despot...but because he is worthy...for his goodness, kindness, mercy, humility and great love.
2. Your soul is in peril when you start to wander. 
Personally, I do not know when the line is crossed...and I do not want to know. But it is a terrible thing to take God for granted...yet something that we seem to find so easily done.

Would I ever tell someone that a suicide "can go to heaven"? God forbid. Believe me, (or not) there is absolutely no compassion in saying otherwise. 
May one pray earnestly for death? Why not?


----------



## farmasis

Israel said:


> Has the Lord set us so free that we can walk away from him if we desire?


 
Is that not what we do when we sin?




> 2. Your soul is in peril when you start to wander.


 
Not biblical.


----------



## farmasis

Isreal, I apologize to you for letting this discussion deteriorate to bashing your beliefs.
I know that some scriptures can be interpreted to mean that salvation can be lost, and by no means do I mean to potrait salvation as something that should be taken for granted. I respect what you feel has been revealed to you in God's Word, but in my opinion Paul himself plainly states that nothing can seperate us from the love of God and Christ himself states that he and the Father are one and his hand is in the hand of the Father and no one has the power to remove me from his hand. I take that literal and without interpretation or adding any circumstances or situations to it. I feel that if situations could prevent such strong wording, the authors would have stated it for clarification.


----------



## Big Texun

farmasis said:


> They don't?
> 
> Someone owes me a refund on my doctorate degree in Pharmacy.



Will you please expound? 

Big Tex


----------



## FX Jenkins

Big Texun said:


> Will you please expound?
> 
> Big Tex



pssst...change the F to Ph, swap the first S for a C and put a T on the end of his user name....


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

farmasis said:


> I don't see how someone could, I would question their sincerity of asking Jesus into their heart when there were no apparent changes in their life. But, that wouldn't be my place so I won't try and evaluate someones heart.
> 
> What I am saying is that I have given into my flesh and have sinned, but I feel confident that even in those times my salvation was secure. I am chastized by the Holy Spirit in me during those times, convicted and have always returned and repented, then made improvements in my life to try and not return to where I was. But, had I not had the opportunity to correct my walk, I would have been in heaven.



But what if there was a change?  They lived their life as a Christian for a long time, but then they drifted away from God and sin became a lifestyle again, just as it had been before.

I've seen this happen hundreds of times.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

farmasis said:


> Isreal, I apologize to you for letting this discussion deteriorate to bashing your beliefs.
> I know that some scriptures can be interpreted to mean that salvation can be lost, and by no means do I mean to potrait salvation as something that should be taken for granted. I respect what you feel has been revealed to you in God's Word, but in my opinion Paul himself plainly states that nothing can seperate us from the love of God and Christ himself states that he and the Father are one and his hand is in the hand of the Father and no one has the power to remove me from his hand. I take that literal and without interpretation or adding any circumstances or situations to it. I feel that if situations could prevent such strong wording, the authors would have stated it for clarification.



Paul means that nothing can take you away from God, but he does not say that you cannot walk freely away from God.  In fact, he warns against just that.

Israel gave us a scripture, Hebrews 6:6: "and then have fallen away..."

If sin becomes a lifestyle, that is, living in constant sin and not repentance, after one was once saved, that is backsliding and it will keep one out of heaven.


----------



## Golden Ratchet

hevishot said:


> question says it all...If you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have led a good Christian life but for one reason or another kill yourself, can you still go to heaven? If you say no, please back it up with some scripture.



What so many people don't seem to understand is, We don't know how long you live befor we actually die. It only takes one quick secound to say "Father forgive me". 
NOBODY HAS A RIGHT TO SAY YOUR NOT GOING TO HEAVEN, ONLY GOD HAS THAT RIGHT!


----------



## FX Jenkins

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Israel gave us a scripture, Hebrews 6:6: "and then have fallen away..."



I think this is also ascribed in Matthew 13

4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:

6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. 

and my understanding is this, that a person can become acquainted with the Spirit with out actually receiving and or accepting the Spirit.  And for those that do receive salvation, 2 Timothy 1:2

For I know whom I have believed in and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day..

But once again we have returned to the OSAS debate ... which none of us who are convinced either way may yield until that day...


----------



## Big Texun

FX Jenkins said:


> pssst...change the F to Ph, swap the first S for a C and put a T on the end of his user name....



Yes, I got that. I'm genuinely interested. That's why I asked him to expound. If I had intended to be sarcastic, it would have been considerably more obvious. 

Big Tex


----------



## FX Jenkins

Big Texun said:


> Yes, I got that. I'm genuinely interested. That's why I asked him to expound. If I had intended to be sarcastic, it would have been considerably more obvious.
> 
> Big Tex





OK, well, I'm sure you prefer an explanation from him and not me, because I didn't do so well in chemistry and biology but here is a quick website that might help.

http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-antidepressants-work.htm


And I wholeheartedly agree that we are an over-medicated society but that doesn't mean we should swing the other extreme and reject all science and technology..


----------



## Big Texun

FX Jenkins said:


> OK, well, I'm sure you prefer an explanation from him and not me, because I didn't do so well in chemistry and biology but here is a quick website that might help.
> 
> http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-antidepressants-work.htm
> 
> 
> And I wholeheartedly agree that we are an over-medicated society but that doesn't mean we should swing the other extreme and reject all science and technology..



I did do purty well in chemistry and biology and, after reading the link, I still don't see where anti-depressants alter the mind (in the conventional sense). Elevate the mood, yes; that's what they're for.

Guess I'm gonna have to wait for the doctor to check in.

Big Tex


----------



## farmasis

Big Texun said:


> Will you please expound?
> 
> Big Tex


 

Antidepressant and antipsychotic drugs do not alter the mind?

Did I read that correctly?


----------



## FX Jenkins

Big Texun said:


> I did do purty well in chemistry and biology and, after reading the link, I still don't see where anti-depressants alter the mind (in the conventional sense).



Please define mind-altering in the conventional sense...


----------



## farmasis

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> But what if there was a change? They lived their life as a Christian for a long time, but then they drifted away from God and sin became a lifestyle again, just as it had been before.
> 
> I've seen this happen hundreds of times.


 
Me too, backsliding.
Like I said, hard to judge a heart and not my place. I believe if you belong to Jesus you would return to him.
It would be easy to say he was never truely saved, but I can't read hearts. I know that if I did not desire to return to worship, had no spiritual life, and did not feel the chastisement of the Holy Spirit, I would not feel easy in my salvation. I would try to get it right.


----------



## farmasis

FX Jenkins said:


> OK, well, I'm sure you prefer an explanation from him and not me, because I didn't do so well in chemistry and biology but here is a quick website that might help.
> 
> http://www.wisegeek.com/how-do-antidepressants-work.htm
> 
> 
> And I wholeheartedly agree that we are an over-medicated society but that doesn't mean we should swing the other extreme and reject all science and technology..


 
yes, they mostly change the way neurotransmitters work in the brain to produce altered responses in mood and behavior. They are not magical and should be combined with therapy to be effective.

Oh, I agree that they are massively over prescribed.


----------



## farmasis

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Paul means that nothing can take you away from God, but he does not say that you cannot walk freely away from God. In fact, he warns against just that.
> 
> Israel gave us a scripture, Hebrews 6:6: "and then have fallen away..."


 
There is nothing there that says you lose your salvation. You fall away from God whenever you sin.
Like I said, you must apply interpretation to scripture to get losing your salvation. There are many scriptures that when taken literally says that you can't. No interpretation needed.



> If sin becomes a lifestyle, that is, living in constant sin and not repentance, after one was once saved, that is backsliding and it will keep one out of heaven.


 
Unbiblical.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

farmasis said:


> Unbiblical.



think what you like.  If I'm wrong, then I've lost nothing.  But if someone who believes in OSAS and lives accordingly is wrong, then they have lost it all.  The Bible says in Isaiah that those who forsake God (renounce or turn away) will be consumed.  I won't take the chance.


----------



## PWalls

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> But if someone who believes in OSAS and lives accordingly is wrong, then they have lost it all.



I believe in OSAS and live accordingly. I live according to the Bible teachings of doing good works and confession and repentence and lifestyle evangalism.

I have said it a 100 times here before. Here is #101. Believing in OSAS does not mean that you believe you can live life how you want to without consequences or problems. A belief in OSAS is not carte blanche to just do whatever.

To me OSAS is a belief in the infinite love of God who would save sinful man from himself and hold him fast in His hands. I posted Revelation 3:5 a few days ago and no one commented on it. Jesus is the one who writes your name in the Book of Life. Once it is written, it can not be blotted out. That is huge scriptural support for OSAS.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

PWalls said:


> I believe in OSAS and live accordingly. I live according to the Bible teachings of doing good works and confession and repentence and lifestyle evangalism.
> 
> I have said it a 100 times here before. Here is #101. Believing in OSAS does not mean that you believe you can live life how you want to without consequences or problems. A belief in OSAS is not carte blanche to just do whatever.
> 
> To me OSAS is a belief in the infinite love of God who would save sinful man from himself and hold him fast in His hands. I posted Revelation 3:5 a few days ago and no one commented on it. Jesus is the one who writes your name in the Book of Life. Once it is written, it can not be blotted out. That is huge scriptural support for OSAS.



well if you don't believe you can get saved once and then live however you want, then you and I agree.  if that's the case, then I think your definition is different than most folks'.  I agree, you don't have anything to worry about.  the only problem I have is that others might not have your revelation and they think that IT IS ok to live however you want.  I don't think you or Farmasis live like that, but I think there are some people who do.

not blotted out, just scratched through if you call and cancel your reservation


----------



## dapper dan

*I Hope Everyone Takes The Time To Look At The Link*

*************************************************************************************************    PLEASE LOOK AT THE LINK. Tell me this dude ain't going to Heaven and you'll need to have your head examined.   There is those special circumstances. God bless our TROOPS over in the sand box. And foreign waters. I know this dude had a nice soft cloud waiting for him.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15258312/


----------



## farmasis

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> think what you like. If I'm wrong, then I've lost nothing. But if someone who believes in OSAS and lives accordingly is wrong, then they have lost it all. The Bible says in Isaiah that those who forsake God (renounce or turn away) will be consumed. I won't take the chance.


 
Isaiah was written many,many years prior to the dispensation of grace and the covering of all sin by the blood of the blameless lamb. 
For some reason, some here assume that people who believe that their salvation is secure does not live a godly life and takes their salvation for granted. No, I repent from my many moments of weakness and I try every day to better my walk. Why? If I am saved anyway? Because I want to please my master and because I am grateful for his mercy and grace, not because I think he will cast me out for not being perfect. He knew that I couldn't be perfect, that is why he sent his son to die!


----------



## farmasis

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> well if you don't believe you can get saved once and then live however you want, then you and I agree. if that's the case, then I think your definition is different than most folks'. I agree, you don't have anything to worry about. the only problem I have is that others might not have your revelation and they think that IT IS ok to live however you want. I don't think you or Farmasis live like that, but I think there are some people who do.
> 
> not blotted out, just scratched through if you call and cancel your reservation


 
That is as dangerous , IMO as questioning if someone actually was saved in the first place. That is such a personal thing that we can't pass judgement on. No problem, however, with informing Christians not to cheapen grace by trying to use it as a get out of h e l l free card.


----------



## PJason

dapper dan said:


> *************************************************************************************************    PLEASE LOOK AT THE LINK. Tell me this dude ain't going to Heaven and you'll need to have your head examined.   There is those special circumstances. God bless our TROOPS over in the sand box. And foreign waters. I know this dude had a nice soft cloud waiting for him.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15258312/




http://www.catholic.org/national/national_story.php?id=27534


> Interestingly, Michael’s parents named him after St. Michael the Archangel and as President Bush noted, September 29, the day of Monsoor’s death, was St. Michael’s feast day.






Sancte Michael Archangele, defende nos in praelio. 
Contra nequitiam et insidias diaboli esto praesidium. Imperet illi Deus, supplices deprecamur. 
Tuque princeps militiae caelestis, Satanam aliosque spiritus malignos, qui ad perditionem animarum pervagantur in mundo divina virtute in infernum detrude. 
Amen. 

Saint Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle, be our protection against the malice and snares of the devil. May God rebuke him we humbly pray; and do thou, O Prince of the Heavenly host, by the power of God, thrust into ____ Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man

You can unless you are also a Mason. No hope there.


----------



## Israel

PWalls said:


> I believe in OSAS and live accordingly. I live according to the Bible teachings of doing good works and confession and repentence and lifestyle evangalism.
> 
> I have said it a 100 times here before. Here is #101. Believing in OSAS does not mean that you believe you can live life how you want to without consequences or problems. A belief in OSAS is not carte blanche to just do whatever.
> 
> To me OSAS is a belief in the infinite love of God who would save sinful man from himself and hold him fast in His hands. I posted Revelation 3:5 a few days ago and no one commented on it. Jesus is the one who writes your name in the Book of Life. Once it is written, it can not be blotted out. That is huge scriptural support for OSAS.




It's quite interesting that scriptures are used to justify a position today that were written to be a comfort to the brethren that were undergoing persecutions, beatings, property seizures, torture and death.
These brothers were not concerned with "can I disobey God and still be ok?" The spirit gave comfort and Paul wrote to address the things they faced for the name of Christ...

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 6:35

Paul is strengthening the believers so that they may be able to face all these things confident that Christ will give them strength to endure all for his Name and be steadfast till the end. He was not formulating a doctrine of OSAS, nor was the spirit giving one. These brothers and sisters weren't wondering "gee, how far can I go and still get to heaven?" 

They knew as Paul stated in the following verse:

As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

And like any man, would no doubt wonder...will I be found faithful? Will I be able to endure what I see these others going through for the Lord's name...and not bring shame to it?

This has everything to do with remaining faithful through persecutions...and nothing at all to do with anything else.

So Paul, by the spirit comforts them and reminds them...that nothing...not someone killing you, not someone or some demon enticing you, not things past, present or future can separate you from the love of God in Christ. 

But as to what the believer himself has power over in the relationship Paul is very clear about, not only here, but elsewhere...but for now suffice it speak of what Paul addresses in the same letter to the Romans not long after regarding their position in the family of God.... 

Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, _and thou standest by faith_. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: _otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. _And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. Romans 11:19-23  Italics mine

Paul speaks to those who now stand by faith, who, should they become highminded, could be cut off. If one wants to argue that "cut off" means something other than sharing a part with the unbelievers...so be it, I will not be contentious about words. 

I know these religious doctrines can have such a strong hold on folks that they are loathe to see the plainness of what is presented.

As to Revelation 3:5 being used as a justification for the abominable OSAS doctrine, one could hardly use a more convincing argument against it. But it means reading the scripture as it was written...in context.

And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. _If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee._

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

_He that overcometh_, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Rev 3:1-5 Italics mine

This is a stern warning to the church at Sardis with particularly dire consequences should it not be heeded. Do any really believe that the Lord would announce 

 "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee" 

and it mean something other than being cut off? Caught in one's sin? 

Do you think any of this has any sobering effect for a person if they just keep repeating OSAS OSAS OSAS?

And that promise to not blot one's name out of the Lamb's book of Life is _specifically_ given to those who overcome...or as was stated somewhere else in the scripture "He that _endures_ to the end shall be saved."

Not he who makes a good start. Or "once" believed.

The devils believe and tremble. They know full well who the Lord is. 

And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time? Matt 8:29

But there is no grace extended to them to obey the gospel. But there is to us.

There are so many warnings to believers to be careful about this gift we have been given, and that there are _no _assurances for those that neglect it. 

If Paul cared that he not be cast away after preaching to others, I thank God for the sobering effect of the spirit's words. 

I can only thank God that this topic has caused me to consider again what perilous times we live in...and that I can never pay too much attention to the Lord's instruction.

Paul warned with tears. 
Not without reason. 

He knew very well this saying... he wrote it...

"Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men" 

Those who would tell others "Suicides can go to heaven" do not realize that their words could someday allow for someone to proceed upon that dictum. I trust it is only ignorance that causes them to speak thus. 
They would do much better to be silent about the matter, otherwise they might just as well preach that the quickest way to heaven is to accept the Lord with a .44 magnum in one's hand. Why endure anything when heaven is just a trigger pull away? I know I speak as a fool.

Which really brings us back to the whole matter of the gospel as preached by faithful disciples. 


Read the scriptures...you will find there is far more emphasis upon giving glory to God in your body now; than talk of heaven. And when heaven is spoken of it is almost always in the context of being with the Lord. 

Heaven is not Disneyworld in the sky. If there is any doctrine, teaching, preaching that seeks to comfort folks with the promise of eternal bliss apart from what the writer speaks of here...it is a lie.

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for_ them that love him._
1Cor 10:9 Italics mine. 

(If a man doesn't love the Lord...he will find him very bad company)

It is a good thing for every man to ask himself in the light of the Lord...not...(am I going to heaven?) But rather ...Do I love you Lord?
And it is not a good thing to answer anyone who asks the question "Will I go to heaven if?" with anything other than...are you loving Jesus?

God is able to keep his own. God is able and does correct and chasten his own. God is able to leave the 99 and return the lost sheep to the flock. God is longsuffering. God saves. But salvation is what God says it is...not what we decide it is. And if God says one is saved by enduring to the end, then so be it. If God promises that he will keep his own, even if and when they might get off the path...so be it. And ultimately since eternal life is exactly what Jesus says it is

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

It would be impossible to hold out hope to anyone who claims the Lord's salvation but has no interest in _knowing_ him.

God love us even when we sin. He loves us enough to tell us to stop. If we do not...we do not love him. If we do not love him, we have no part with him.


I ask his grace and strength that I might love him as he has loved me. 

And also for all those whom he knows are his.


----------



## farmasis

That is a lot of your personal interpretation into scriptures, hope you don't mind if I take scripture at face value instead of trying to make them fit my belief system.
Why did Jesus have to die? Why must we cheapen his sacrifice and feel that salvation is something that you earned when our righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags? Why would God take away something that he freely gave? If God god did in fact prove his love to us that while we were sinners, Christ died for us, then why would he take that away if we sin? 
Nope, it is not what we do that saves us, or resaves us.

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.

It is God that calls us, justifies us and saves us. Once we believe in Him, he will do the work necessary to keep us. That is why he leaves 99 to seak the one.
Paul writes to Timothy (II Timothy 1:12):

I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.

Do we still love our children when they make a mistake or do we disown them? No, of course we don't and how much more so does our Father love us? Paul described us as adopted children of God. In Jewish culture of the time, adopted children had more rights than even naturally born children. Naturally born children could, in fact, be disowned by their family and their inheritance could be withdrawn. This could not be done to adopted children because they were chosen.

Later in Romans, Paul adds this to show that we are secure:
38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,<SUP>[m]</SUP> neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Not much there that can be misinterpreted and taken out of context. Nothing, nothing.

In Ephesians, Paul writes:
13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.

John records Jesus's words plainly:
 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all<SUP>[d]</SUP>; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one." 

Later John (I John 5:13) states that we can know that our salvation is secure:
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.


I have not added one thing to the word of God.


----------



## Israel

farmasis said:


> That is a lot of your personal interpretation into scriptures, hope you don't mind if I take scripture at face value instead of trying to make them fit my belief system.
> Why did Jesus have to die? Why must we cheapen his sacrifice and feel that salvation is something that you earned when our righteousness is nothing more than filthy rags? Why would God take away something that he freely gave? If God god did in fact prove his love to us that while we were sinners, Christ died for us, then why would he take that away if we sin?
> Nope, it is not what we do that saves us, or resaves us.
> 
> Titus 3:5
> Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.
> 
> It is God that calls us, justifies us and saves us. Once we believe in Him, he will do the work necessary to keep us. That is why he leaves 99 to seak the one.
> Paul writes to Timothy (II Timothy 1:12):
> 
> I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day.
> 
> Do we still love our children when they make a mistake or do we disown them? No, of course we don't and how much more so does our Father love us? Paul described us as adopted children of God. In Jewish culture of the time, adopted children had more rights than even naturally born children. Naturally born children could, in fact, be disowned by their family and their inheritance could be withdrawn. This could not be done to adopted children because they were chosen.
> 
> Later in Romans, Paul adds this to show that we are secure:
> 38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons,<SUP>[m]</SUP> neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> Not much there that can be misinterpreted and taken out of context. Nothing, nothing.
> 
> In Ephesians, Paul writes:
> 13And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
> 
> John records Jesus's words plainly:
> 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all<SUP>[d]</SUP>; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."
> 
> Later John (I John 5:13) states that we can know that our salvation is secure:
> These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.
> 
> 
> I have not added one thing to the word of God.




I guess you just don't understand the difference between snatched and walking away. 
Big difference between me telling my wife..."don't worry honey, I'm not gonna let anyone come and steal you", and, "I got the doors locked from the inside and outside. "

Since this whole topic began and included your misguided at best, and horrific, at worst appraisal that 'Yes, suicides can go to heaven" which sprang from your OSAS indoctrination, and then went on to include "there are suicides in heaven" (and I know I am not quoting verbatim), you obviously still do not see the putrid fruit of that pernicious doctrine. And all things bear fruit. 


Do I say a suicide cannot go to heaven? God forbid. As one brother pointed out and as I believe wholeheartedly, God can always give time to repent. God can even slow a bullet's path for the sake of the elect. And elect is the key word. If we are going to argue the elect are "the" saved, then it becomes a tautology. 
I am saying that the elect will show they are the saved by patient endurance in the Lord...and I can say without doubt that there are many that have named the name of Christ, confessed him as Lord...and walked away. And many that have been told...once saved, always saved...and they think salvation is a matter of their coming forward at a brush arbor decades ago. No, instead of taking a stand on some man made application of God's grace to a doctrine...he should have been told...you are receiving a gift that no one can take away from you, BUT...if you do not nurtutre it, if you do not seek to grow in it, if you do nothing to care for it...it will show you care nothing about it...and you can discover you have thrown it away by your neglect someday, and you will have no one to blame but yourself. God will speak to you along the way to wake up...but if you refuse, in the end (and yes, Paul knew there was a race to run, not just a start to be made) you will be ashamed.
As I said, heaven is not Disneyworld in the sky, and a man who doesn't love the Lord really will not want to be around him. And I find the preaching of OSAS as odious to the Lord as any other man made doctrine men wrap themselves in to preserve their own ways.
The Lord knows those who love him. 

None was lost except the son of perdiditon that the scriptures might be fulfilled. 

Where is Judas?


There are other scriptures yet to be fulfilled.


----------



## Big Texun

dawg2 said:


> 3rd praragraph on the page:
> 
> "...mood is elevated from the depressed state to a more normal state of mind."
> 
> I would say that is "altering."



Uncle. Calf Rope. I give.

I think this is a matter of semantics however... and I know that "a more normal state of mind" should not be confused with "a more than normal state of mind." In fact, the meds take a person to "a more normal state of mind" that is still below "a normal state of mind." But, it allows them to cope.


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## Big Texun

farmasis said:


> Antidepressant and antipsychotic drugs do not alter the mind?
> 
> Did I read that correctly?



Not talking about anti-psychotic drugs.


----------



## widowmaker1

Milkman said:


> The people you mentioned are probably not clinically depressed, theirs is due to a situation or circumstance. Clinical depression is not due to circumstance, as Hevi stated, it comes on without apparant cause.



 actually it can be. I used to work with a guy who got divorced. he went crazy,.. i mean real crazy. the doctors said that he got so depressed, that his brain quit producing lithium. now he has to take lithium pills daily, and as long as he takes them, he is fine.


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## farmasis

Israel said:


> I guess you just don't understand the difference between snatched and walking away.
> Big difference between me telling my wife..."don't worry honey, I'm not gonna let anyone come and steal you", and, "I got the doors locked from the inside and outside. "
> 
> Since this whole topic began and included your misguided at best, and horrific, at worst appraisal that 'Yes, suicides can go to heaven" which sprang from your OSAS indoctrination, and then went on to include "there are suicides in heaven" (and I know I am not quoting verbatim), you obviously still do not see the putrid fruit of that pernicious doctrine. And all things bear fruit.
> 
> 
> Do I say a suicide cannot go to heaven? God forbid. As one brother pointed out and as I believe wholeheartedly, God can always give time to repent. God can even slow a bullet's path for the sake of the elect. And elect is the key word. If we are going to argue the elect are "the" saved, then it becomes a tautology.
> I am saying that the elect will show they are the saved by patient endurance in the Lord...and I can say without doubt that there are many that have named the name of Christ, confessed him as Lord...and walked away. And many that have been told...once saved, always saved...and they think salvation is a matter of their coming forward at a brush arbor decades ago. No, instead of taking a stand on some man made application of God's grace to a doctrine...he should have been told...you are receiving a gift that no one can take away from you, BUT...if you do not nurtutre it, if you do not seek to grow in it, if you do nothing to care for it...it will show you care nothing about it...and you can discover you have thrown it away by your neglect someday, and you will have no one to blame but yourself. God will speak to you along the way to wake up...but if you refuse, in the end (and yes, Paul knew there was a race to run, not just a start to be made) you will be ashamed.
> As I said, heaven is not Disneyworld in the sky, and a man who doesn't love the Lord really will not want to be around him. And I find the preaching of OSAS as odious to the Lord as any other man made doctrine men wrap themselves in to preserve their own ways.
> The Lord knows those who love him.
> 
> None was lost except the son of perdiditon that the scriptures might be fulfilled.


 
Like I said, OSAS is not man made, it is a promise from Jesus. It is not only doctrinally sound, but the theme of the NT.

I would hope someone would not use the excuse that someone posted on the internet of the truth that a truely saved person is sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption and kill themselves. I believe that the gospel should be preached as it is and changing the meaning to tickle the ears is wrong.
Again, I think someone should question the sincerity of asking Jesus into their heart if they turn away and never return, for the Bible says that if they had been of us, they would have remained with us. Also, a life that does not produce fruit for God should also be indicative that something may not be right.



> Where is Judas?


 
Like you said, God can save who he wants. But, Judas died before grace. I feel that he is seperated from God eventhough that is not my place to determine.

God forbid, you don't get the opportunity to confess and repent from your last sin before your death. What happens to you? 

I can tell you what will happen to me, because I am sure that I will have unconfessed sins unless my death is predictable. I believe that I will have to give an answer for them. I think I will feel deep sorrow for my life not measuring up to what it could have been, because I could have always done more work for Christ that gave me so much. I will feel embarrassed to have brought so few crowns to the one who loves me so much and I will have to claim that I am guilty and not worthy to be in the presence of such a Holy one. Then, before my sentence is pronounced, Jesus will step in and say "I got those covered, this is my child and I love him". I don't know what heaven will be because the Bible talks so little about it. I am not brave enough to say that it will or will not be Disneyland because that has not been told to me in scripture. I am sure that it will involve continued service and worship of God. I will be saved from eternal seperation from God because of what he did, not me. Grace and mercy abounds in my Jesus, and I know that I am his. Grace is getting what I don't deserve, and mercy is not getting what I do deserve. If I was responsible for my own righteousness, I would not need grace and mercy and my savior would not have had to die for me.

Now, if that is witchcraft or false doctrine, then I believe in witchcraft and false doctrine.


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## Bones

*Heaven*

Well said Farmasis.  That is exactly what I believe.  

Bones


----------



## Big Texun

FX Jenkins said:


> Please define mind-altering in the conventional sense...



In our society, I think that people, in general, perceive the phrase "mind altering" to be analogous to the effects one would obtain from drinking alcohol or taking "drugs". More specifically: impaired judgement, loss of motor skills, slurred speech, etc.

I submit to each of you, even those with doctorate degrees in pharmacy (those that have read exhaustively about this stuff...)  that the effects are entirely NOT that for a clinically depressed person. Instead, the clinically depressed person obtains significantly improved judgement, return of motor skills, and even the ability to speak more rationally. They are still below "average" on the "happy scale".

Anyhow, that's what I meant by the words, "Anti-depressants do not alter the mind." They do but they don't.

Farmasis, what do you think of that?

Big Tex


----------



## MustangMAtt30

farmasis said:


> I can tell you what will happen to me, because I am sure that I will have unconfessed sins unless my death is predictable. I believe that I will have to give an answer for them. I think I will feel deep sorrow for my life not measuring up to what it could have been, because I could have always done more work for Christ that gave me so much. I will feel embarrassed to have brought so few crowns to the one who loves me so much and I will have to claim that I am guilty and not worthy to be in the presence of such a Holy one. Then, before my sentence is pronounced, Jesus will step in and say "I got those covered, this is my child and I love him". I don't know what heaven will be because the Bible talks so little about it. I am not brave enough to say that it will or will not be Disneyland because that has not been told to me in scripture. I am sure that it will involve continued service and worship of God. I will be saved from eternal seperation from God because of what he did, not me. Grace and mercy abounds in my Jesus, and I know that I am his. Grace is getting what I don't deserve, and mercy is not getting what I do deserve. If I was responsible for my own righteousness, I would not need grace and mercy and my savior would not have had to die for me.
> 
> Now, if that is witchcraft or false doctrine, then I believe in witchcraft and false doctrine.



Amen brother!  Jesus died for all sin, past, present and future!  If you accept him as Lord and Savior then you are washed in the blood of Jesus.


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## Israel

The heart of the matter will always be:
 "what does it mean to be saved?" 
when considering "Once saved, always saved". 
Because it leaves and, I am confident, caused so much confusion as an added explanation of what Jesus says it is useless and at best, misleading. One might just as well say..."the saved are the saved"...but the addition of that word "Once" points to a particular time or event from which one can count their salvation. And that will lead to many a misinterpretation by many...for if you believe you  
were "once" saved and not receiving the assurance of the Holy Spirit "now" that you are abiding in the Lord, what else could anyone do but repent. And more importantly perhaps, what does it mean if one does not?

That's why it is so damaging to tell someone that suicide will not affect ones "salvation".  Especially if you take the position that the elect of God may commit suicide. 

For I believe it is true...Jesus will lose none that belong to him...but I also know that there are many things in this life we can say and do that do not glorify Jesus...and if you do not see that saying Jesus's elect may fall into such despair that taking their life is acceptable recourse...then I fail to see the one who has overcome the whole world being glorified in it. 

You tell me...is that the one who is overcoming that the Lord has promised to engrave their name in the book of life? Is this the victory that overcomes the world? Suicide? 
Or do you suppose Jesus is not the template, the plumbline, the leader who also promises to also lead us in triumph in everything? If the final act in this life is to (and I see it no other way) take back your own life with a vengeance...then what really has ever been entrusted to his care?
Yes, I am persuded he is able to keep what I have entrusted to him...but really...what is it that I have entrusted to him? Maybe nothing at all. If I am able to "take it back" and end it. 


If you see any of the brothers that were entrusted with the recording of the scriptures as an example of this, tell me. I daresay those that have endured as they have have all come to the point of resisting despair, hating the notion of taking their life in their own hands...and if you doubt that these brothers dealt with trials that in so many ways dwarf our own, I would suggest you look again.


If you don't see the harm in telling someone that (even if you believe it), you have not yet learned the discipline the Lord is able to apply to foolish lips.

Did God once give you assurance you were his child? Then, if you don't hear him saying that today, don't put any trust in any vain attempts by man to distill the Lord's promises into some silly acronym. Repent. Turn around. Don't think he can't visit you as a thief in the night...and that is as much a promise as anything else the Lord speaks. And don't be foolish enough to believe it will be a pleasant visit.

It is good to know the Lord will never leave us nor forsake us...but there is something I see in Jesus that is part of his wonderful attraction...he is not at all interested in the good opinion of man or even gathering a following to himself. He knows the vanity of our praise and compliments, our fickleness and our duplicity...yet he still loves us. He loves us enough to set us free...and that freedom includes walking away if we so desire.

 As he said to the twelve after many left him for saying he was the bread of life "Will you leave also?" 

He knew that only the Father working through revelation by the Holy Spirit was the only thing that mattered in his ministry...he made no attempts to "prove himself". And he was tested for it several times...even and especially at the hour of his passion and death. Remaining silent when he could easily have called down 12 legions of angels to save himself...and there is much to say about that...if God wills.

It's good to be reminded of the Lord's goodness toward us that does not leave us mired in the darkness of our own ways and thoughts. Having the mind of Christ is an inexpressable gift that we are to count precious.
To learn the discipline the Lord exercised..."I speak only what the Father gives me to speak". 
Lord help us all.


----------



## farmasis

Big Texun said:


> In our society, I think that people, in general, perceive the phrase "mind altering" to be analogous to the effects one would obtain from drinking alcohol or taking "drugs". More specifically: impaired judgement, loss of motor skills, slurred speech, etc.
> 
> I submit to each of you, even those with doctorate degrees in pharmacy (those that have read exhaustively about this stuff...) that the effects are entirely NOT that for a clinically depressed person. Instead, the clinically depressed person obtains significantly improved judgement, return of motor skills, and even the ability to speak more rationally. They are still below "average" on the "happy scale".
> 
> Anyhow, that's what I meant by the words, "Anti-depressants do not alter the mind." They do but they don't.
> 
> Farmasis, what do you think of that?
> 
> Big Tex


 
I think that I know where you are coming from. Yes, sometimes sedatives are used to treat depression. I would not think that anyone would use them alone in these days, but I guess it would be possible.

Most antidepressant used today do in fact alter the chemicals of the brain to produce responses. 

Take Prozac for example (copy and paste job from Micromedex, a drug guide):

Indication:
Major depressive disorder: initial, 20 mg ORALLY once daily in the morning 

Mechanism of action:
Fluoxetine (generic for Prozac) is a "second-generation" antidepressant agent which is a specific inhibitor of serotonin reuptake. The inhibition of serotonin uptake produced by fluoxetine correlates with plasma concentrations. Evidence for serotonin deficiency in depressive disorders stems primarily from 1) measurement of decreased serotonin levels in brain samples from postmortem depressed patients, 2) measurement of a decrease in the serotonin metabolite (5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid) in CSF prior to and after probenecid in depressed patients, and 3) demonstration of benefits of administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan, or drugs that increase serotonin concentrations in the synaptic cleft.


----------



## Big Texun

farmasis said:


> Take Prozac for example (copy and paste job from Micromedex, a drug guide):
> 
> Indication:
> Major depressive disorder: initial, 20 mg ORALLY once daily in the morning
> 
> Mechanism of action:
> Fluoxetine (generic for Prozac) is a "second-generation" antidepressant agent which is a specific inhibitor of serotonin reuptake. The inhibition of serotonin uptake produced by fluoxetine correlates with plasma concentrations. Evidence for serotonin deficiency in depressive disorders stems primarily from 1) measurement of decreased serotonin levels in brain samples from postmortem depressed patients, 2) measurement of a decrease in the serotonin metabolite (5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid) in CSF prior to and after probenecid in depressed patients, and 3) demonstration of benefits of administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan, or drugs that increase serotonin concentrations in the synaptic cleft.



I didn't do THAT well in chemistry! 

Still not sure if you agree / disagree?


----------



## FX Jenkins

Big Texun said:


> They do but they don't.
> 
> Big Tex





Big Texun said:


> Still not sure if you agree / disagree?




I do but I don't   

I'm still counting on Gods word to alter, or better yet, renew my mind...


----------



## crackerdave

I have read every post up to this point,and it was worth every minute of the time it took.Many good points have been made.
I suffer from depression and take medication for it.I have contemplated suicide - that is why I finally swallowed my pride and went to see a doctor,who is a Christian just as I am.The medication he prescribed has helped,and I DO NOT feel that my faith has been diminished by it,or that my going to a doctor for help is a sign of weak faith.That would be a very foolish thing to think,as God gives the ability to humans to learn how to heal other humans.
My answer to any that think depression or medications to treat it are some sort of "cop-out" is this: Walk a mile in my shoes before you make your judgements. Yes,there are many who think there's a pill for every problem,and many doctors and pharmacists who are only too happy to sell 'em some,but it's ridiculous to lump everybody in that category. Anybody that has not experienced total despair and real depression has no right to an opinion about it,unless they just enjoy looking foolish.Walk that mile first,then I'll listen to you.
Israel,you probably ruffled the feathers of many of the OSAS crowd,but I personally believe you're right - if a person says they're saved but continues to repeat sin after sin and ignore what God has said about serving Him and being a light to the world - how long will God have patience with that person? Will He "take 'em out" or keep going upside his head with hardships in life,trying to get him to get back on the path? Does His patience go on indefinitely? I think not.I'm not of the opinion that such a person will lose their salvation,just that God will "cut them off" by ending their life on earth sooner. I think it is very dangerous to try God's patience.
Hevishot,thanks for starting this - I've always gotten the impression you're a straight shooter. You'll be in my prayers,because I think you and I have walked some of the same miles.
God bless every brother and sister here - may you never walk any of those miles.


----------



## JerkBait

No. GA. Mt. Man said:


> You can unless you are also a Mason. No hope there.


----------



## Big Texun

rangerdave said:


> I have read every post up to this point,and it was worth every minute of the time it took.Many good points have been made.
> I suffer from depression and take medication for it.I have contemplated suicide - that is why I finally swallowed my pride and went to see a doctor,who is a Christian just as I am.The medication he prescribed has helped,and I DO NOT feel that my faith has been diminished by it,or that my going to a doctor for help is a sign of weak faith.That would be a very foolish thing to think,as God gives the ability to humans to learn how to heal other humans.
> My answer to any that think depression or medications to treat it are some sort of "cop-out" is this: Walk a mile in my shoes before you make your judgements. Yes,there are many who think there's a pill for every problem,and many doctors and pharmacists who are only too happy to sell 'em some,but it's ridiculous to lump everybody in that category. Anybody that has not experienced total despair and real depression has no right to an opinion about it,unless they just enjoy looking foolish.Walk that mile first,then I'll listen to you.
> 
> God bless every brother and sister here - may you never walk any of those miles.



Rangerdave,

As is probably obvious from my posts, I've walked a few of those miles. When it first happened to me, I was not a victim of any self induced problems. Quite the contrary; I had a great relationship with the Lord, taught Sunday school, had a great job that paid over $200,000 a year, a wonderful wife and family, and a very very bright future. Still, it happened. There were times where I could not allow myself to stay alone because I knew that if I did... I would.

Anti-depressant medication literally saved my life, my marriage, my job, and even my salvation if some on this board are correct in their views (which, by the way, I think they are wrong).

Anyway, when an opportunity arises to talk about it... as I saw here... I always jump in and try to educate people as best I can. I think that any time a discussion like this arises, there is a good chance that a brother or sister is silently listening... someone who is desperately walking the same miles... If the statistics are right, there are probably MORE than one listening.

Rangerdave, in your case, you finally "swallowed your pride" and got help. Praise God that you did! Unfortunately, many do NOT seek help, largely because they, or their wife, or their family has heard many of the same uneducated opinions that have been expressed here. I submit that these poor people, the ones that don't get help, form the ranks from which people choose to commit suicide.

It is easy to be judgemental. It is SOBERING to realize that on this particular issue, being judgemental can stop a person from "swallowing their pride" and getting the help they need to avoid killing themselves. In many respects, the Judge becomes the Executioner.

Farmasis, I am thrilled that the Lord gave you the intelligence to earn a doctorate in Pharmacy. As a brother in Christ, I feel compelled to chastise the flippancy in which you addressed this issue. To whom much is given, much is expected.


----------



## farmasis

Big Texun said:


> Farmasis, I am thrilled that the Lord gave you the intelligence to earn a doctorate in Pharmacy. As a brother in Christ, I feel compelled to chastise the flippancy in which you addressed this issue. To whom much is given, much is expected.


 
Sorry if I came across flippy.


----------



## Big Texun

farmasis said:


> Sorry if I came across flippy.



Farmasis,

I was too hard on ya brother. I sincerely apologize. 

Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming!

Have a happy day,
Big Tex


----------



## MustangMAtt30

rangerdave said:


> I have read every post up to this point,and it was worth every minute of the time it took.Many good points have been made.
> I suffer from depression and take medication for it.I have contemplated suicide - that is why I finally swallowed my pride and went to see a doctor,who is a Christian just as I am.The medication he prescribed has helped,and I DO NOT feel that my faith has been diminished by it,or that my going to a doctor for help is a sign of weak faith.That would be a very foolish thing to think,as God gives the ability to humans to learn how to heal other humans.
> My answer to any that think depression or medications to treat it are some sort of "cop-out" is this: Walk a mile in my shoes before you make your judgements. Yes,there are many who think there's a pill for every problem,and many doctors and pharmacists who are only too happy to sell 'em some,but it's ridiculous to lump everybody in that category. Anybody that has not experienced total despair and real depression has no right to an opinion about it,unless they just enjoy looking foolish.Walk that mile first,then I'll listen to you.
> Israel,you probably ruffled the feathers of many of the OSAS crowd,but I personally believe you're right - if a person says they're saved but continues to repeat sin after sin and ignore what God has said about serving Him and being a light to the world - how long will God have patience with that person? Will He "take 'em out" or keep going upside his head with hardships in life,trying to get him to get back on the path? Does His patience go on indefinitely? I think not.I'm not of the opinion that such a person will lose their salvation,just that God will "cut them off" by ending their life on earth sooner. I think it is very dangerous to try God's patience.
> Hevishot,thanks for starting this - I've always gotten the impression you're a straight shooter. You'll be in my prayers,because I think you and I have walked some of the same miles.
> God bless every brother and sister here - may you never walk any of those miles.



Great post.  My wife suffers from clinical depression and I have bit my tongue with some of the blatant ignorance shown in some of these posts.

And you are very correct about Hevishot, he is a very straight shooter and good guy.


----------



## crackerdave

I've never been a very good "tongue-biter!" It's caused me some scars,both visible and not,but I'm not afraid to exercise my right to free speech,and I have a hard time tolerating ignorant people,especially when they might be seriously hurting somebody with their ignorance.
I guess I never really answered your question,Hevishot - sorry.
Yes,I think once you truly belong to God,and have accepted Jesus sincerely as your Savior - you would still be with Him even if you took your own life.I'm pretty sure He'd be a little disappointed in you,though.


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## Swampy

My personal thoughts are that no one dies before it is their time. You can't live past your allotted number of days and you can't shorten them. You have a set amount of time from the moment of birth (or really even conception) to the date and time of your death. If you die by suicide or by getting hit by a train, it was your time, only the "method" differs. Heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- In my opinion, the destination is not driven by the method of dying. It is determined by faith. We're all weak. We all fight demons daily whether or not we truly understand or accept that. Some days we win, some days we lose. You can destroy yourself slowly (and spiritually) over a lifetime - it doesn't have to be with a bullet or a rope ....


----------



## Swampy

Hey, I got edited there - I guess I should have said 'Hades'...


----------



## Israel

Swampy said:


> My personal thoughts are that no one dies before it is their time. You can't live past your allotted number of days and you can't shorten them. You have a set amount of time from the moment of birth (or really even conception) to the date and time of your death. If you die by suicide or by getting hit by a train, it was your time, only the "method" differs. Heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- In my opinion, the destination is not driven by the method of dying. It is determined by faith. We're all weak. We all fight demons daily whether or not we truly understand or accept that. Some days we win, some days we lose. You can destroy yourself slowly (and spiritually) over a lifetime - it doesn't have to be with a bullet or a rope ....



Good points. 
Maybe the questions we ask are all wrong..."can I do this or that...can I own this or that...can I operate this or that"
It's all the "I" in operation. 
The questions should never be about us, what we can do. There is really only one question that is pertinent for the believer...does this honor and glorify my Father? 
What will we do...speak of things that are "allowed" for? Or speak of the transcendent power of God that can deliver us from every foe and temptation.  

I understand that this type of discussion can and will lead to..."well, are you perfect? Don't you stumble?"  But that is not what we are charged with...to learn about the frailty of man and discuss it ad nauseum. If anything, we are told to search out the unspeakable riches of God's power and grace...and to be counted among those who "endure to the end". 

I have plenty of worldly folk willing to comfort me in my willingness to lay down and just die, but not for the Lord, just in conformity to this unspeakably hellish system we have willingly cooperated in constructing according to Satan's blueprint. Keep working...buy this...buy that...think this...watch this...believe this...buy more...look at what your neighbor has...

I know most of us can spot a phony a mile away, especially if we have been around the Lord for any length of time. And I am not talking about the pollyanna approach..."oh praise the Lord...everything's ducky"...


Paul went through it. If anything, I so appreciate the Lord for him and allowing us to have a record of some of his trials and temptations...I believe God really understood we would be inclined to say "Well, we are not like Jesus" (which I believe is a lie anyway)

No, God made sure we had an example of what a saved man can experience and still proclaim victory. Prison, whippings, scorn (yes, mostly from the "saved folks"), abandonment. This is what we need to encourage one another in. It's far to easy to say "well God chose Paul for a special purpose"...when at least one great purpose  of God's choosing Paul was to make evident God's mercy to "the chiefest of sinners" (and if you think that was Paul...well...so be it...but allow me to introduce myself).

Sometimes the religious veil makes us think these testimonies and people are a little less than real...like prison was not as big a deal...nor torture, cause well..."they're bible people"...anything to keep the truth at arm's length. (and besides, they'd be dead now anyway...and I am really alive right now and have something to lose...a house, an LCD TV, a wife, a boat, a reputation) Yes, the devil is clever if not smart. He knows how to play on a weakness, but the weakness is ours, not his...and we have been told how to overcome.

I write this not so much for anyone else, but that I might be stirred. I know I am the one most lacking in faith and resolve. I know what it is to be lulled back to sleep by the monotonous rhythms of gehenna. (I've been told the common usage gets edited).

Either Christ lives in us or he does not. Either the resurrection is the truth (another reason I love Paul...not afraid to face the tough question unflinchingly)  or not.

Since it is true, how can any of us be bested by the weak and beggarly elements...and how can any of us be willing to take charge of ourselves...when we can hand the reins over to the one who is always triumphant?


----------



## crackerdave

This has become yet another debate about salvation - whether it is permanent,or temporary,as determined by our actions or lack of actions.


----------



## the HEED!

i say no, but its God's place to judge your soul.

Why I believe no you say- because God in heaven, your creator, is the only one who has the right to end your life and take your soul for he is the one who gave you life. No MAN has the right to GODs decision.


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## crackerdave

the HEED! said:


> i say no, but its God's place to judge your soul.
> 
> Why I believe no you say- because God in heaven, your creator, is the only one who has the right to end your life and take your soul for he is the one who gave you life. No MAN has the right to GODs decision.



So if I'm in combat,and an enemy shoots me dead - the shooter was given that right by God? What about capital punishment? What about the terminal cancer patient who has wasted away to a skeleton whose nurse ends their suffering?
I'm not arguing the fact that God gives us life - but does He give us the right to take the lives of others,but not ourselves?
To quote John Prine: "Now,Jesus don't like killin' no matter what the reason's for...."


----------



## the HEED!

rangerdave said:


> So if I'm in combat,and an enemy shoots me dead - the shooter was given that right by God? What about capital punishment? What about the terminal cancer patient who has wasted away to a skeleton whose nurse ends their suffering?
> I'm not arguing the fact that God gives us life - but does He give us the right to take the lives of others,but not ourselves?
> To quote John Prine: "Now,Jesus don't like killin' no matter what the reason's for...."



me thinks somebody mis-read

God didnt give us the right to take lives of others, you ever heard of the ten commandments? wow

killing and evil is the doing of men but God knows all things that have and will happen


----------



## dixon413

*Yes*

I believe you can still go to heaven even if you commit suicide. My father committed suicide and I spoke with my pastor alot about this. There is NO place in the Bible stating if you commit suicide you will go to hades Also is smoking and causing yourself terminal cancer or drinking and dying from liver cirrosis years down the road really any different? I don't think so. The only unforgiveable sin is not accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. I just look at it as the Lord was calling my Father home and away from the suffering from this hateful world we live in.


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## dixon413

Sorry didn't realize they would edit he ll


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## crackerdave

the HEED! said:


> me thinks somebody mis-read
> 
> God didnt give us the right to take lives of others, you ever heard of the ten commandments? wow
> 
> killing and evil is the doing of men but God knows all things that have and will happen



Yes,I've heard of the ten commandments? wow

What is it you think I mis-read,Mr.heed?


----------



## kw5891

hevishot said:


> question says it all...If you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have led a good Christian life but for one reason or another kill yourself, can you still go to heaven? If you say no, please back it up with some scripture.


good question here what i beleve when i get to heaven and i dont see you i guess not


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## kw5891

Swampy said:


> Hey, I got edited there - I guess I should have said 'Hades'...


lol to most people there is no such thing


----------



## farmasis

dixon413 said:


> I believe you can still go to heaven even if you commit suicide. My father committed suicide and I spoke with my pastor alot about this. There is NO place in the Bible stating if you commit suicide you will go to Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. Also is smoking and causing yourself terminal cancer or drinking and dying from liver cirrosis years down the road really any different? I don't think so. The only unforgiveable sin is not accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior. I just look at it as the Lord was calling my Father home and away from the suffering from this hateful world we live in.


 
Sorry about your dad, but you are correct (IMO) that if your father made a decision to accept Christ, he cannot do anything to seperate himself from his savior. Including suicide.


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## blake4x4offroad

if your saved your saved. nothing you can do can keep you from heaven if you have accepted jesus into your heart


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## doublelungdriller

just saw this thread for the first time, so i have not read all of it's post. but i say once saved always saved "if you were truly saved." salvation is a gift from god through his son Jesus Christ. if you truly say & confess in your heart to god that you are a lost sinner and ask for him to forgive you for your sins and you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose again.and ask him to come in to your heart and save you then you are saved. therefor suicide would not keep you from heaven. you can't lose what you can't earn and salvation is a gift you just have to accept it.


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## Ronnie T

Sadly, I know too many Christians who believe suicide is a one way ticket to the bad place.  When a godly person, for whatever reason, finds themself in such a state that they take their own life, I believe God will have great pity on them.


----------



## Milkman

Along the same lines I always hear the little rhyme
"If God brought you to it he will bring you through it"

Well all the folks who got to the point of no return and took their life didnt get through it did they?

I say those who have accepted Christ will still be in Heaven, if not the plan of Salvation doesnt work.


----------



## crackerdave

Nobody in their "right" mind would kill themself.I believe God understands mental illness far better than any of us,and would never condemn a victim of it.


----------



## bucko

I have read every post on this subject. I am not saying you go to heaven or not. I am walking those miles that big texun and ranger dave talk about everday of my life. I am on the outside looking in on this topic. I can not explain to you in words the despair and crazy feelings that come upon you for no apparent reason. I have thought of suicide many many times. I am not born again so I know what many of you will say. I have been on many medications and none have taken away this overwelming feeling of despair that I have everyday. There are many things that have happened in my life in the past 12 months to get me to where I am at. I deal with them as I can. I am hard working, caring, forgiving and I am not crazy. These feelings of despair I get are real and you can not stop them from happening. I am just letting you know that what big texan and ranger dave went through are real and there are people out in this world that need your help and not judgement.


----------



## Vernon Holt

I am truly sorry that you are experiencing this feeling of hopelessness and despair.  It seems that you have sought relief and found none.

Why don't you deal with this matter of being on the "outside and looking in"??  Why do you not give God a chance to relieve you of this burden??  He most assuredly will.

It is a matter of praying the sinner's prayer, "Lord I openly acknowledge that I am a sinner in need of your saving Grace.  Please come into my life and relieve me of my anxieties and give me hope for the future.

If you feel that you need someone to talk to, find a local minister who will gladly answer questions and council with you.

May God Bless!!


----------



## Israel

bucko said:


> I have read every post on this subject. I am not saying you go to heaven or not. I am walking those miles that big texun and ranger dave talk about everday of my life. I am on the outside looking in on this topic. I can not explain to you in words the despair and crazy feelings that come upon you for no apparent reason. I have thought of suicide many many times. I am not born again so I know what many of you will say. I have been on many medications and none have taken away this overwelming feeling of despair that I have everyday. There are many things that have happened in my life in the past 12 months to get me to where I am at. I deal with them as I can. I am hard working, caring, forgiving and I am not crazy. These feelings of despair I get are real and you can not stop them from happening. I am just letting you know that what big texan and ranger dave went through are real and there are people out in this world that need your help and not judgement.



As one who also has considered suicide I can only recommend Jesus. I do not recommend christianity, I do not recommend "going to a church" or anything else.
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
Without Jesus, there is nothing but despair. 
But thanks be to God he has conquered death and despair.
So by admitting you are not a believer, and in despair, you are now the perfect candidate. 
If it is not the "craziest" thing to believe, then it is not the gospel...cause the gospel does not only NOT make sense to the carnal man, it is totally opposed to all he knows and believes...It is not that the gospel is hard to believe...with man it is totally impossible! 
But with God, all things are possible.
It is good for a man to reach out to his creator. 
Do it.


----------



## crackerdave

I completely agree with Vernon and Israel - you need GOD! What have you got to lose,but your despair?
bucko,send me a p.m. and I'll be glad to help you any way I can.Medication can only do just so much,and then only if the doctors can find the right "concoction." You've taken a huge step in the right direction just by posting on here and saying you need help.Please don't let it keep getting worse!


----------



## bucko

pm sent


----------



## crackerdave

Didn't get the p.m.


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## bucko

pm re-sent


----------



## Keebs

*Flash back...........(sort-of)*

After reading this yesterday I got to thinking back about a friend that I had found after he had committed suicide.  It was a platonic relationship, he was a local dj that I would go by & have a cup of coffee with on occasion on my way to work, I'd help him with his girl troubles & he'd give me advice on my new marriage.  Well, I had gone to the town he lived in to do some shopping one evening after work & decided to surprise him at home for once, he'd invited me a few times when he knew I was going to be over there, but I just had never gone.  I even had to call the landlady of the apt's where he lived 'cause I got turned around but didn't wanna call him & ruin the surprise.  I knocked on the door, but didn't get an answer, I heard his radio going, but nothing else.  I knocked a few more times before I finally tried the door knob, it was open, I took one step into the apt & saw him on the floor, but as I went to "re-act"/try to "wake" him, I saw the gun, a rifle at that.  Needless to say, I went into shock, but went to the landlords apt, explained who I was & that I was the one that had called & then, what I had found, I went BACK to his apt with them to verify it & then went back to their place for them to call the cops.  Here is where I couldn't handle it no more, I left before the cops got there, don't know why, except it hit me *he was gone* - - well, somehow they got ahold of me when I got home & I got my s-i-l to go back with me & I talked to the cops, I really couldn't explain why I left and they really weren't "too" *ugly* about it and to be honest I don't remember what all was said, I just going on how I remember feeling.  I agonized over his suicide for a loooonngg time, this was back when I was in church every Sunday and was very involved in my church.  I talked with not only my preacher, my Daddy (a deacon) but a couple of former preacher's that I felt comfortable talking to, I read more & more of my bible, and of course, it was first on my prayer list, NOTHING seemed to get that feeling to go away, until one night I had a dream.  I walked through a door into a HUGE radio station, my friends back was to me, I never saw his face, but I *felt* his smile, saw his right hand go up in a wave and I *heard* him say "Best Gig I've Ever Had"...............
I was finally at peace, then & now.................
any thoughts from anyone??


----------



## crackerdave

bucko said:


> pm re-sent



P.m. answered,bucko - brace yourself,it's a long one!


----------



## crackerdave

Kebo said:


> After reading this yesterday I got to thinking back about a friend that I had found after he had committed suicide.  It was a platonic relationship, he was a local dj that I would go by & have a cup of coffee with on occasion on my way to work, I'd help him with his girl troubles & he'd give me advice on my new marriage.  Well, I had gone to the town he lived in to do some shopping one evening after work & decided to surprise him at home for once, he'd invited me a few times when he knew I was going to be over there, but I just had never gone.  I even had to call the landlady of the apt's where he lived 'cause I got turned around but didn't wanna call him & ruin the surprise.  I knocked on the door, but didn't get an answer, I heard his radio going, but nothing else.  I knocked a few more times before I finally tried the door knob, it was open, I took one step into the apt & saw him on the floor, but as I went to "re-act"/try to "wake" him, I saw the gun, a rifle at that.  Needless to say, I went into shock, but went to the landlords apt, explained who I was & that I was the one that had called & then, what I had found, I went BACK to his apt with them to verify it & then went back to their place for them to call the cops.  Here is where I couldn't handle it no more, I left before the cops got there, don't know why, except it hit me *he was gone* - - well, somehow they got ahold of me when I got home & I got my s-i-l to go back with me & I talked to the cops, I really couldn't explain why I left and they really weren't "too" *ugly* about it and to be honest I don't remember what all was said, I just going on how I remember feeling.  I agonized over his suicide for a loooonngg time, this was back when I was in church every Sunday and was very involved in my church.  I talked with not only my preacher, my Daddy (a deacon) but a couple of former preacher's that I felt comfortable talking to, I read more & more of my bible, and of course, it was first on my prayer list, NOTHING seemed to get that feeling to go away, until one night I had a dream.  I walked through a door into a HUGE radio station, my friends back was to me, I never saw his face, but I *felt* his smile, saw his right hand go up in a wave and I *heard* him say "Best Gig I've Ever Had"...............
> I was finally at peace, then & now.................
> any thoughts from anyone??



Sometimes our dreams seem to be one of God's ways of telling us something.Then again,other times it seems like satan is running the "projector!" I don't dream much,but when I do,I don't take 'em very seriously.


----------



## crackerdave

This thread was posted by "hevishot" last spring,and I thought it was worth dragging up,since we've got so many newcomers since then.Notice how many views and replies - read,and see what you think.


----------



## Big7

farmasis said:


> Like I said, OSAS is not man made, it is a promise from Jesus. It is not only doctrinally sound, but the theme of the NT.
> 
> Now, if that is witchcraft or false doctrine, then I believe in witchcraft and false doctrine.



OSAS - There is that false sense of security , again.

If it were that simple we wouldn't have to do much
except say a few words. (and of course believe them)

That in NO WAY means that you do not have to say it and believe it - 
Just some other things too..

The Sacrament of Penance, among others comes to my mind.
More on that HERE:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm


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## Israel

Ronnie T said:


> Sadly, I know too many Christians who believe suicide is a one way ticket to the bad place.  When a godly person, for whatever reason, finds themself in such a state that they take their own life, I believe God will have great pity on them.



I would have to ask...at which point did the believer start to believe the lie that his life was "his own"?

In so many ways I am a complete fraud, often fearful, too often crude, often timid when I should be bold, often harsh when I should be kind...but none of those things change the truth of God. And yes, I often behave as though the life I have is "my own"...but for this I do not expect anything but what I deserve, the painful but necessary reminder that it is not.

I cannot condemn anyone for behaving the same way...but I cannot say that to God it will not matter.

As believers I am convinced we need to be very careful as to what we "allow for" and although I do not subscribe to Pascal's wager as a meaningful rationale for the faith, I wouldn't want to "allow" for suicide anymore than I would want to find myself arguing for this point:
"What's the least one can do and get to heaven..."

Perhaps then the kindest thing anyone can do for a disciple is kill him, so that he can go to be with the Lord...but who of us wants to go down that road of reasoning?


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## farmasis

Big7 said:


> OSAS - There is that false sense of security , again.
> 
> If it were that simple we wouldn't have to do much
> except say a few words. (and of course believe them)
> 
> That in NO WAY means that you do not have to say it and believe it -
> Just some other things too..
> 
> The Sacrament of Penance, among others comes to my mind.
> More on that HERE:
> http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11618c.htm


 
I'll stick with what God says and not a pope or magestreium if you don't mind. He is my Lord.


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## Big7

farmasis said:


> I'll stick with what God says and not a pope or magestreium if you don't mind. He is my Lord.



No - I don't mind.

I tend to stick with the "original" nothing has changed,
except in Luther and Calvin's mind.

If you want to follow the teachings of one of many
schisms - go for it.

Please show me OSAS in the Bible.
Or, is that a Protestant oral tradition.


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## gtparts

John 10:26-30

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 
30 I and my Father are one.


1 John 2:25

25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.


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## ambush80

Isn't your body a temple, according to the Bible?


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## crackerdave

This is a discussion about whether or not one can commit suicide and still go to heaven,not the tired old "once saved always saved" discussion - although that IS relevant,it's not the topic.

Not trying to sound smarmy,but if you've read all these posts you'll see osas has been discussed to death.There's another thread back about ten pages or so that deals with all that. I just bumped this thread up from page 11,I think it was,because this is a time of year when many people get VERY depressed,and some consider suicide a way out of it.  
I sincerely hope somebody will read something here in one of these many posts that will give them hope and let them know they're not alone. It's not a contest to see who can have the last word - there IS no last word,only God's.

If you are one of those people that feels totally hopeless,PLEASE send me a personal message and let's talk about it.It'll be strictly between us.


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## Big7

Thanks for the nads rangerdave. Someone needed to say that.
I'm with you on this one. (and some more too...)

I can only think of a few that are as bad as me on this subject.
I will not name , however.
Guilty as charged. (me)


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## crackerdave

I honestly wasn't trying to quell the discussion - only to try and keep it from rambling into   land!

I haven't seen the author of this thread[ Hevishot] post anything in a long time - I hope all our squabbling hasn't skeered him off,too


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## farmasis

Big7 said:


> No - I don't mind.
> 
> I tend to stick with the "original" nothing has changed,
> except in Luther and Calvin's mind.
> 
> If you want to follow the teachings of one of many
> schisms - go for it.
> 
> Please show me OSAS in the Bible.
> Or, is that a Protestant oral tradition.


 
Okie Dokie.....

Eph 4:29-30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 

Eph 1:12-14 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession-to the praise of his glory. 

John 10:26-30 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 

Rom 8:37-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Jude1:24To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—

John 3:14-16 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.<SUP>[e]</SUP> 
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,<SUP>[f]</SUP> that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.


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## Tim L

To the original question of can one commit suicide and still go to heaven, I have heard some say no, not under any circumstance....my first thought was to agree, but then I started thinking about cases where soldiers gave their lives by falling on a grenade to save folks in their unit or platoon....Technically thats suicide but I don't think the lord would hold that against them....Usually, its best not to have to many "not under any circumstances" because theirs always examples like this to most questions like this......


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## crackerdave

Amen,Rouster - good example!


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## chiefsquirrel83

My uncle took his own life in 1993. He left a note stating that alcohol and drugs basically consumed him. I believe that he is in heaven out of the grips of Satan's Power. Anyone want to argue that one with bring it.


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## Israel

chiefsquirrel83 said:


> My uncle took his own life in 1993. He left a note stating that alcohol and drugs basically consumed him. I believe that he is in heaven out of the grips of Satan's Power. Anyone want to argue that one with bring it.



Not argue...but simply ask again, when did he fall to the lie that his life was his own?

We are told several times throughout scripture our lives are not our own...those aren't just "nice words", but a part of our faith.
Maybe in all of this discussion (as the term "took his own life" has come up a couple of times) the Lord is warning us...the best you can do with "your own" life is to make such a monstrosity as you will believe you will indeed be better off dead.
Maybe if we die now, and live to the Lord instead, in other words, share in the Lord's death...there'll be no "taking our own life"

As an aside I will testify, don't worry, if you really wanna die, follow Jesus, there's plenty of folk would like to kill you...a whole worldfull.


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## Israel

Rouster said:


> To the original question of can one commit suicide and still go to heaven, I have heard some say no, not under any circumstance....my first thought was to agree, but then I started thinking about cases where soldiers gave their lives by falling on a grenade to save folks in their unit or platoon....Technically thats suicide but I don't think the lord would hold that against them....Usually, its best not to have to many "not under any circumstances" because theirs always examples like this to most questions like this......



Greater love has no man than this... 
And although I appreciate your example...I don't see that as suicide at all. And for the purposes of this discussion, I believe most don't either.
Suicide is purposely ending your own life for its own sake...not to save someone, not to keep someone else alive.
I'm reasonably sure if you asked that soldier a moment before the grenade went off if he wanted to die just to die, he'd say no...but for the sake of his brothers in arms, he is willing to.
In fact, I believe he we dissected the whole of it, you'd find jumping on a grenade the precise opposite of suicide...one done out of love, one done out of hate.
If only those that "hate their own lives" can come to see that only the Lord can handle it...and wants to...they'd see that makes them a good candidate for a disciple.

Many times I am so frustrated with myself, I am so blessed to be reminded it is only because I am trying to live my own life...or better understood...trying to make a dead thing have some life in it. My own life is gone, dead, kaput. 
That's not a statement of my imagined achievements in God...just a fact...indeed, every man and woman since the cross is to learn "when Christ died, all men died"...the old creation is dead.
We are all dead, but our new life is waiting in Christ, where we are to find it.
And there's no "taking of one's own life" there. Just laying it down on behalf of others.


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## gtparts

IMHO, the issue is stewardship. Suicide is throwing away a life, not "taking one". The destruction of the life entrusted to each of us is wrong. But, the irrationality of the action takes the issue beyond our ability to understand the deed and all its implications, especially the spiritual.

Semantics? Perhaps, but the life each of us lives is never truly our own. Even from an atheist's position, there is a vested interest by family, friends, employer, employees, and society , in general.

If the subject is approached from a Christian perspective, it is a clear contradiction of God's perfect will, but apparently not necessarily excluded from His permissive will. 

While we may feel compassion for those who suffer from physical or psychological  pain (but certainly less than the compassion God has for His creation), we are far from being holy and omniscient. Not to put too fine a point on it, but we really don't have the credentials to speak authoritatively on this issue and our speculation is of no real value.

It is a sad and desperate act, in which we can only ponder, for we do not walk in the shoes of others, even in our greatest moments of empathy.

Grace and peace be to you and yours.


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## Israel

well said brother...many opinions are formed out of a misplaced sense of compassion...and therefore if false comfort is offered, it can end up doing more harm than good.
My caution has always been, since the God of the whole earth will do right, and all else is speculation, it is far better to be cautious in those things for which one allows.
No damage is done telling one they should never commit suicide, as opposed to the possibilities inherent in "well, the Lord will still receive you to himself."
We rae never here to offer comfort simply for comforts sake, but always as a testimony of the truth of God revealed in Christ. 
Now for the few who can receive this, no man ever felt more pressure to "end his own life" than Jesus...but instead trusted God with it. 
That's our example.
No, you don't have to walk around like a dejected, depressed mess to be sorely tempted with what often presents itself as the "easier way out". 
I am confident there is not one saint that has not had the devil whisper it to them.


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## crackerdave

gtparts said:


> IMHO, the issue is stewardship. Suicide is throwing away a life, not "taking one". The destruction of the life entrusted to each of us is wrong. But, the irrationality of the action takes the issue beyond our ability to understand the deed and all its implications, especially the spiritual.
> 
> Semantics? Perhaps, but the life each of us lives is never truly our own. Even from an atheist's position, there is a vested interest by family, friends, employer, employees, and society , in general.
> 
> If the subject is approached from a Christian perspective, it is a clear contradiction of God's perfect will, but apparently not necessarily excluded from His permissive will.
> 
> While we may feel compassion for those who suffer from physical or psychological  pain (but certainly less than the compassion God has for His creation), we are far from being holy and omniscient. Not to put too fine a point on it, but we really don't have the credentials to speak authoritatively on this issue and our speculation is of no real value.
> 
> It is a sad and desperate act, in which we can only ponder, for we do not walk in the shoes of others, even in our greatest moments of empathy.
> 
> Grace and peace be to you and yours.



Excellent thoughts,GT and Israel.Thanks!


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## bcm

The only unpardonable sin the bible speaks of is blaspheming the Holy Spirit. Matthew 12:31


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## Israel

If only we knew how free we are.
Suicide may be the final act of those demanding pity.
Jesus didn't want pity.
Nothing noble about suicide.
All men will die, just wait for it if you want it so badly...even pray for it if you believe you need it.



We are dealing with spirits here, and they'd love for everyone to "feel sorry" for the suicide...and not see or hear all of heaven's victory shout of Jesus' overcoming.
Yes, there are severe trials in this life, but being of good cheer because Jesus has overcome the world is the ONLY safe advice to practice. 
Or give.


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## Israel

DocHoliday said:


> I have planned mine out. I have thought about it for a very long time now.  Every detail is carefully layed out.  I have watched this thread for some time now looking at opinions on the subject. Heaven must be better than here and H*ll is where I already exist in my mind. So when the time comes no looking back. Carry on soldiers. Peace:
> Doc



Yep, doc, words.
Words that spirits can either lock on to and spread death, or words of life to advance God's kingdom.

Even our silly speculations, which we sometimes think are harmless and merely aside from the arena of faith in which we fight can have eternal consequences for some.

Don't you dare take what is not yours!

Live and glorifiy God till he summons you home.
And when the pressure is great (and it will be great)
think on Jesus. And be glad.

There's not a saint in heaven that doesn't say "Man that sure went quick"

1 Peter 5: 10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.


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## jawja_peach

hevishot said:


> question says it all...If you have accepted Jesus as your savior and have led a good Christian life but for one reason or another kill yourself, can you still go to heaven? If you say no, please back it up with some scripture.




 My brother committed suicide when he was 27. He was not saved, so I assume suicide or not he busted H**** wide open. I hate to think that I will never see him again, other than at the Great White Throne, but I was only 14-15yrs. at the time and lost myself. I have since lost my father too, not to suicide, and not sure of his salvation either. Things is, now that I'm saved and my name has been written in the Lambs Book of Life (and will not be removed..because once it's put there it's there, no whiteout in heaven...-God- "OK Peach was good today" name down, "uh-oh, bad Peach" name gone... WHAT???-- But being a born-again child of God I do know a person can lose their joy. There Joy in Christ Jesus. They can get so beat down by this world that they loose their joy, and don't see any other way out. I have a friend that is at this border and though I know she is saved, all she can talk about is how she just hates living in a world full of judgement and how she can't wait to go 'home'. She has a hubby and four children. Again, I'm worried, but I'm limited in what I can do and say, as it's between her and God. The problem there is she feels so wicked that she feels she can't go to God. That she doesn't deserve His love, compassion and Grace. So, I do believe a person, lost or saved, can loose their joy and even their testimony and become so alone that suicide is the only 'out' they see.


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## Israel

jawja_peach said:


> My brother committed suicide when he was 27. He was not saved, so I assume suicide or not he busted H**** wide open. I hate to think that I will never see him again, other than at the Great White Throne, but I was only 14-15yrs. at the time and lost myself. I have since lost my father too, not to suicide, and not sure of his salvation either. Things is, now that I'm saved and my name has been written in the Lambs Book of Life (and will not be removed..because once it's put there it's there, no whiteout in heaven...-God- "OK Peach was good today" name down, "uh-oh, bad Peach" name gone... WHAT???-- But being a born-again child of God I do know a person can lose their joy. There Joy in Christ Jesus. They can get so beat down by this world that they loose their joy, and don't see any other way out. I have a friend that is at this border and though I know she is saved, all she can talk about is how she just hates living in a world full of judgement and how she can't wait to go 'home'. She has a hubby and four children. Again, I'm worried, but I'm limited in what I can do and say, as it's between her and God. The problem there is she feels so wicked that she feels she can't go to God. That she doesn't deserve His love, compassion and Grace. So, I do believe a person, lost or saved, can loose their joy and even their testimony and become so alone that suicide is the only 'out' they see.




That becomes the issue, doesn't it? 
Somehow the grace of God bursts through (that "somehow" is God) and we discover Christ in his glory...we are forgiven and received in the beloved.
Then another "somehow" takes place and we begin to believe a lie that we can ever deserve God's grace and mercy.
It is not about us, and the moment we go back to making it about us, we are lost in deception...not lost from God so to speak, just lost in a lie.
Mercy is never given to the one who deserves it (otherwise it is not mercy, but a payment of debt)...it is given to the one who needs it, by the one who delights in giving it.
The one who said it is better to give than receive is the same one who delights to give mercy.
As a dear brother used to preach incessantly...it is not what we deserve...but does God "deserve" to be able to do what pleases him? Therefore God is looking for those who will take him up on his offer so he can have the fullness of his joy complete in them...by allowing him to show them mercy.
Does God "deserve" to do what he delights in?
Then allow him to show you mercy.
You'll both be happy.
Then, when he has allowed this fullness of joy in you, go talk to your friend.
Remind her how silly she is for thinking she could or should deserve mercy.
Then pull her in the pool with you.


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## jawja_peach

*thank you...*



Israel said:


> That becomes the issue, doesn't it?
> Somehow the grace of God bursts through (that "somehow" is God) and we discover Christ in his glory...we are forgiven and received in the beloved.
> Then another "somehow" takes place and we begin to believe a lie that we can ever deserve God's grace and mercy.
> It is not about us, and the moment we go back to making it about us, we are lost in deception...not lost from God so to speak, just lost in a lie.
> Mercy is never given to the one who deserves it (otherwise it is not mercy, but a payment of debt)...it is given to the one who needs it, by the one who delights in giving it.
> The one who said it is better to give than receive is the same one who delights to give mercy.
> As a dear brother used to preach incessantly...it is not what we deserve...but does God "deserve" to be able to do what pleases him? Therefore God is looking for those who will take him up on his offer so he can have the fullness of his joy complete in them...by allowing him to show them mercy.
> Does God "deserve" to do what he delights in?
> Then allow him to show you mercy.
> You'll both be happy.
> Then, when he has allowed this fullness of joy in you, go talk to your friend.
> Remind her how silly she is for thinking she could or should deserve mercy.
> Then pull her in the pool with you.



Thank you for the kind comment. I see them sparingly on these forums. Please remember my friend. All you said, I do/can relate to. Please remember me also, that God will give me the knowledge & words to help her see where God stands, and that He has His arms wide open ready to receive her when she realizes how silly she's been. Thank you again...God Bless


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## gtparts

jawja_peach said:


> My brother committed suicide when he was 27. He was not saved, so I assume suicide or not he busted H**** wide open. I hate to think that I will never see him again, other than at the Great White Throne, but I was only 14-15yrs. at the time and lost myself. I have since lost my father too, not to suicide, and not sure of his salvation either. Things is, now that I'm saved and my name has been written in the Lambs Book of Life (and will not be removed..because once it's put there it's there, no whiteout in heaven...-God- "OK Peach was good today" name down, "uh-oh, bad Peach" name gone... WHAT???-- But being a born-again child of God I do know a person can lose their joy. There Joy in Christ Jesus. They can get so beat down by this world that they loose their joy, and don't see any other way out. I have a friend that is at this border and though I know she is saved, all she can talk about is how she just hates living in a world full of judgement and how she can't wait to go 'home'. She has a hubby and four children. Again, I'm worried, but I'm limited in what I can do and say, as it's between her and God. The problem there is she feels so wicked that she feels she can't go to God. That she doesn't deserve His love, compassion and Grace. So, I do believe a person, lost or saved, can loose their joy and even their testimony and become so alone that suicide is the only 'out' they see.



Losing someone we love is never easy and causes us to question our part in that relationship, whether things might have been different if......

I believe that upon the home-going of the Christian, that our perspective will be greatly changed, for God does not leave those who belong to Him to suffer when they enter His kingdom. Revelation 21 tells us in part, verses 1-7:

 "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth are passed away; and the sea is no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven of God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, [and be] their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely."

Some believe that this means that our memory of the hard and painful times on Earth will be purged, leaving just the pleasant stuff. 
I do not think this is how it will be but rather as Jesus responded to inquiring minds in Luke 9:62, 

"But Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

I don't believe we will be asking questions about the past life. I do not believe we will harbor any memory of this world, but that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for me and for you. The worship and praise, glory and honor will be raised to the Lamb for eternity. We will be so riveted on the perfection of God that, though we are surrounded by the hosts of heaven and the saints of the former Earth, it will be as though we alone are in His presence. No tears, no sorrow, no pain, no regrets, but joy and reverence unspeakable for the Lamb that was slain and is risen and reigns on high forever and ever. I do not want to look back, for there is nothing there for me, only what lies ahead.

Grace and peace be unto you and yours.


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## jawja_peach

thank you for your comment. I am fimiliar with the scripture you have written. And I'm very glad to see others on here that 'DO' know the Bible and what it says. We can always agree to disagree, but still love eachother as our Lord and Saviour commanded us to. Have a Blessed weekend...and thank you again


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## crackerdave

Bumpin' it up one more time.


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## christianhunter

Sampson killed himself,and he was a prophet of GOD.Surely no one thinks he is in H*ll.


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## crackerdave

Interesting thread - interesting to see who's still in the trenches,too.


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## Long Colt

Me personally, I believe that murder is murder. You can call it suicide but the fact it your killing someone even though it is yourself. Thou shall not kill.... If you kill youself you will not be able to repent of that sin therefore you die as a sinner. My personal belief is you will not go to heaven


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## Milkman

In my opinion a person who has depression is no more responsible for their actions which harm themselves than a small child.

If a small child jumps into a river and drowns is he responsible for his own death?   No.


Neither is someone with depression who uses what they believe is the only tool they have to get relief.


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## crackerdave

Amen,brother.

I would sincerely hope and pray that any person who comes across this thread and reads it and says "That's _me!_" will turn their life over to God and his people and do everything possible to avoid taking their own life.Many times,folks can only truly turn to God when they have absolutely,positively hit rock bottom.

Only God knows where the few people are now that I poured my heart out to in pm's during this discussion.I sincerely pray that they have seen the glory of God.If even one person reads this thread and seeks help,it is priceless.


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## farmasis

Long Colt said:


> Me personally, I believe that murder is murder. You can call it suicide but the fact it your killing someone even though it is yourself. Thou shall not kill.... If you kill youself you will not be able to repent of that sin therefore you die as a sinner. My personal belief is you will not go to heaven


 

Does this apply to our soldiers?
Does this apply to those who kill in self defense?
Does this apply to anyone involved in an accident that takes the life of another?


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## Long Colt

farmasis said:


> Does this apply to our soldiers?
> Does this apply to those who kill in self defense?
> Does this apply to anyone involved in an accident that takes the life of another?



Im talking about the ones that kill willingly and knowingly... slef defence is something completely different... Im not trying to start anything with anyone... I am just posting my opinion like everyone else... isnt that why this forum is here.


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## farmasis

Long Colt said:


> Im talking about the ones that kill willingly and knowingly... slef defence is something completely different... Im not trying to start anything with anyone... I am just posting my opinion like everyone else... isnt that why this forum is here.


 
Just asking to clarify...isn't that what replies are for?


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## Milkman

Long Colt said:


> Im talking about the ones that kill willingly and knowingly... slef defence is something completely different... Im not trying to start anything with anyone... I am just posting my opinion like everyone else... isnt that why this forum is here.



Sure thats what the forums are all about. No need to be offended when someone quotes your posts and questions them. Its all in the spirit of discussion and debate, and it hopefully helps someone who makes a post give it an extra bit of thought knowing someone with a differing opinion might challenge them

I dont feel the same way as you do about this subject, but none the less support your right to your opinion.


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## Israel

If you want yourself dead...which is not an unworthy goal by any means...I wouldn't recommend any method other than the Cross of Christ. (It's a good place to start, hating your own life)
When you see what Jesus has already done with the old man, you will see any attempts of your own to get him out of the way fall woefully short.
Should you not like Jesus' solutions to the problems of misery, hopelessness, frustration and ultimatelty, self absorption...I would just say...look again.


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## Jranger

What if you were trapped in a burning vehicle with a loaded weapon. I for one would hope that I had the stones to keep myself from enduring the pain of burning to death. 
Another twist, what if you are in a situation where you are watching someone doomed to a fiery death, should you intervene to ease their suffering? Is that murder?


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## Long Colt

very good questions, but I for one dont really want to state my opinion on those. Not saying that I havent thought aboust stuff like that myself but I really dont wants my thoughts on the matter to help make anyones mind up on those topics. I guess we just really need to have a strong faith in God if those situations arised.


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## Ronnie T

I'm not sure there's been any recent evidence in regard to this subject one way or the other.
The only thing I know for sure it that when a person commits suicide, they are dead.


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## thedeacon

The bible don't cover if'fen


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## Milkman

thedeacon said:


> The bible don't cover if'fen



Doesnt the bible say something like ......... nothing can remove someone from the love of God?


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## farmasis

Milkman said:


> Doesnt the bible say something like ......... nothing can remove someone from the love of God?


 

Yes sir it does..that is our blessed hope.


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## jmharris23

Everyone may want to look here: 

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=541256


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