# Kill 'em all!  Wolves, that is.



## redlevel (Aug 31, 2009)

Another example of "relocation" gone wrong.
http://www.missoulian.com/news/local/article_5ff01772-938f-11de-9aca-001cc4c03286.html
Home / News / Local
Wolves kill 120 sheep at ranch near Dillon

By EVE BYRON of the Helena Independent Record | Posted: Friday, August 28, 2009 6:30 am | (76) Comments

HELENA - While the debate about how many wolves are enough to ensure a healthy population will again come to a head in a federal courtroom Monday, a Dillon-area ranch is picking up the pieces from the largest known wolf depredation in recent history.
In a highly unusual move for wolves, they killed about 120 adult male sheep in one incident on the Rebish/Konen Livestock Ranch south of Dillon last week.
That compares with a total of 111 sheep killed by wolves in Montana in 2008, according to Carolyn Sime, the statewide wolf coordinator for Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks.
"This is one of the most significant losses that I've seen," Sime said. "That situation is really unfortunate."
Suzanne Stone with Defenders of Wildlife added that in the 20 years she's been working toward ensuring healthy wolf populations, this is the first time she's heard of such a mass killing.
"I've heard of bears or mountain lions doing that, but what usually happens is the sheep panic and jump on top of one another or fall into a ditch and suffocate," Stone said. "I've never heard of any situation where wolves killed so much livestock in such a short period of time.
"... This is the most extreme case I've ever heard about."
The ranch has suffered confirmed wolf depredations twice in three weeks. In late July, three wolves - two blacks and a gray - killed at least 26 rams. The gray wolf was lethally shot by a federal wildlife manager, and one of the blacks was injured. They thought that would scare off the rest of the pack.
Last week, wolves struck again. This time, they took out 120 purebred Rambouillet bucks that ranged in size from about 150 to 200 pounds, and were the result of more than 80 years of breeding.
"We went up to the pasture on Thursday (Aug. 20) - we go up there every two or three days - and everything was fine," rancher Jon Konen said. "The bucks were in the pasture; I had about 100 heifers with them on 600 acres."
He had some business to attend to in Billings, so Konen told his son to be sure to check on the livestock while he was gone.
"He called me, and said it was a mess up there. He said there were dead bucks all up and down the creek. We went up there the next day and tried to count them, but there were too many to count," Konen recalled.
"I had tears in my eyes, not only for myself but for what my stock had to go through," he added. "They were running, getting chewed on, bit and piled into a corner. They were bit on the neck, on the back, on the back of the hind leg.
"They'd cripple them, then rip their sides open."
Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks has taken the lead in wolf management from the U.S. Department of the Interior's Fish and Wildlife Service, and the state agency has a "memorandum of understanding" with the federal Department of Agriculture's Wildlife Services to provide damage management services when livestock are killed by wolves.
After the dead sheep were found, Graeme McDougal with Wildlife Services flew in a small plane over the sheep pasture, looking for the one or two remaining black wolves to complete the control work requested by Montana FWP. Within a half-mile of the sheep pasture, he spotted the Centennial pack of three adult gray wolves and five pups.
McDougal shot and killed the one uncollared adult wolf, but wasn't authorized to remove any more wolves.
This was the first known depredation incident for the Centennial pack in 2009.
Konen doesn't want to wade into the debate over the reintroduction of wolves in the Rockies, but said that in his opinion, it's time to stop managing wolves and start controlling them.
"My bucks were on private ground, in a pasture where we've been pasturing them for 50 years. The wolves were intruders that were in the wrong place," he said.
Wolves were recently taken off the list of animals protected under the Endangered Species Act, and both Montana and Idaho have instituted hunting seasons for them this year. Idaho will allow 265 wolves to be taken by hunters, in a season that starts Tuesday. Montana will allow 75 wolves to be taken, with the season starting Sept. 15.
Montana is home to an estimated 500 wolves, while Idaho has at least 850. Wyoming also has wolves, but they remain under Endangered Species Act protection.
In Stone's opinion, hunting wolves could create even more problems for ranchers.
"If the adults are shot, then the young ones are dispersed too early," Stone said. "Young pups on their own might turn to livestock to survive, and that's not a good situation for anybody."
Her organization has put out a book to educate ranchers on proactive steps they can take to prevent livestock loss, like hiring range riders, hanging "fladry" - closely spaced cloth - on fences, and minimizing attractants such as dead carcasses.
Defenders of Wildlife has spent more than $895,000 since 1998 to help pay for installation of nonlethal methods to prevent conflicts.
Since 1987, they've also made 885 payments totaling $1.35 million to ranchers to compensate for livestock killed by wolves.
In Montana, the Legislature has earmarked $150,000 to compensate ranchers for livestock lost to wolves, and U.S. Sen. Jon Tester, D-Mont., co-sponsored a bill that includes $5 million in federal funding over five years for depredation losses.
George Edwards, state livestock loss mitigation coordinator, said the Rebish/Konen Ranch probably will receive $350 per dead sheep.
But he added that the loss is more than just monetary to ranchers.
"The compensation still doesn't make up for the loss by any means," Edwards said. "The rancher still needs to make up his breeding stock, and people in town may not realize the attachment livestock folk get to their animals. The emotional toll it takes is just indescribable."


XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I think the wolves were "re-introduced" into the area.


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## hunter44a (Aug 31, 2009)

Ain't nature wonderful?


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## Nitro (Aug 31, 2009)

To my somewhat skewed view of the world, I would much rather have more wolves than some of the people that are on the planet....The wolves are just doing what wolves do.

I would much rather hear the truly wild sound of a Wolf howling than the thump of some thug's Rap music.....

But hey, that's just me.


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## miles58 (Aug 31, 2009)

I am sorry, but the wolves are native to the area, the sheep are intruders that are in the wrong place.  This is a pretty extreme example of what can happen.  So far extreme that it has no bearing at alll on real world wolf behavior.  I live in an area not all that far from substantial wild wolf populations.  I hunt in an area where there are wolves but the density is not high.  The deer population continues to expand beyond carrying capacity of the land.  If we return to a normal (for us) winter or a hard winter there will be a fifty per cent or more die off of deer.  I used to hunt north of Duluth, in the early 70s just that happened and the population crashed badly.  In the years before it was one of the few places in the US where wolves were doing well.

I have been there.  I used to spend a lot of time up in the country Balvarik lives in.  There were times we had to close up the sheep in a sheep barn because if they were left out to pasture wolves would get them.  

Wolves that get shot at are the most wary, shy animals you've ever seen.  Keeping sheep near wild wolves without keeping the wolves properly fearful of humans is going to result in problems.  I think that part of the strength of a wolf population is a result of the stress imposed by wolves being kept properly fearful.  Most of the state where wolves are present does not have problems with wolves.  I think it results from people shooting them from time to time.


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## redlevel (Aug 31, 2009)

miles58 said:


> I am sorry, but the wolves are native to the area, the sheep are intruders that are in the wrong place.



Well, then, let's just carry that to the logical end:  White people are intruders, because the Indians and the wolves were here first.  Far as that goes, let's just run the Indians back across the Bering Strait into Siberia and turn it all back over to the wolves and the buffalo and the antelopes to play.

I swear, if saber-toothed cats were discovered to be in existence, somebody would want to transplant a population to North America because they were "native to the area"  15,000 years ago.


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## JustUs4All (Aug 31, 2009)

redlevel said:


> Well, then, let's just carry that to the logical end:  White people are intruders, because the Indians and the wolves were here first.  Far as that goes, let's just run the Indians back across the Bering Strait into Siberia and turn it all back over to the wolves and the buffalo and the antelopes to play.
> 
> I swear, if saber-toothed cats were discovered to be in existence, somebody would want to transplant a population to North America because they were "native to the area"  15,000 years ago.



Amen.  
It is nature in action when humans clear predators from an area in order to protect valuable livestock.  The humans are just reducing the competition.  Wolves will do the very same thing to coyotes if they get the chance in order to reduce competition.  

I too prefer the sound of wolves and coyotes to the thump of a thug's rap music, but I will kill the coyote if I get the chance.  I probably will not get the chance to kill a wolf in my lifetime.


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## longears (Aug 31, 2009)

The wolves that were released in montana were not native to montana. Timber wolves were native and they are smaller than the canadian wolf that was intro.


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## Tater Bug (Aug 31, 2009)

If you owned livestock, you would have a different opinion. We have around 120 head of dairy cattle and wolves would be on top of my hit list. When you have worked your tail off for many years, beating out a living working with stock, then you can understand. Another way to look at this is they will be just like coyotes, migrateing our way. Just my two cents.


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## redlevel (Aug 31, 2009)

Tater Bug said:


> Another way to look at this is they will be just like coyotes, migrateing our way. Just my two cents.



Yeah, and they might migrate just like feral hogs, too.  In some "sportsman's" stock trailer.


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## miles58 (Sep 1, 2009)

redlevel said:


> Well, then, let's just carry that to the logical end:  White people are intruders, because the Indians and the wolves were here first.  Far as that goes, let's just run the Indians back across the Bering Strait into Siberia and turn it all back over to the wolves and the buffalo and the antelopes to play.
> 
> I swear, if saber-toothed cats were discovered to be in existence, somebody would want to transplant a population to North America because they were "native to the area"  15,000 years ago.



Lets carry your argument forward to it's logical conclusion.

Fill an area with people and their trappings and you have New York City.  Ridiculous arguments do not produce solutions.


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## miles58 (Sep 1, 2009)

Tater Bug said:


> If you owned livestock, you would have a different opinion. We have around 120 head of dairy cattle and wolves would be on top of my hit list. When you have worked your tail off for many years, beating out a living working with stock, then you can understand. Another way to look at this is they will be just like coyotes, migrateing our way. Just my two cents.



What part of the bit about putting the sheep in the barn didn't you get?  Sheep are livestock.  We also had cows, pigs  and horses.

Wolves are not going to be just like coyotes.  They are very, very different animals behaviorally.  If you had anything to worry about from wolves migrating they'd be south of Minnesota and Wisconsin.  The odd wolf will get to wandering for sure, and I don't doubt but what maybe one or two have shown up in Iowa or Missouri.  Every now and again one of our moose gets to wandering too, and I know of a couple that have made it into Missouri.  That does not by a long stretch begin to support a conclusion that moose might establish a population in Missouri though.

A few years ago I ran into a moose in the middle of North Dakota.  Miles from any water, and a lot more miles from where any self respecting moose had any right to be.  The moose scared me a whole lot more than any wolf ever has as we stood there fifty feet apart while he decided did he think I was worth stomping into mud.

The point is that before wolves will expand, they have to have a place where there are not that many people to expand into.  They just do not tolerate people well enough to coexist with them like coyotes do.  A coyote can live in a two acre wood lot.  Wolves cannot.  Twenty miles from my house is an area nearly devoid of people that is thirty miles north to south and 7-8 miles east to west.  I know there are wolves in it.  I have never seen one there in forty years.  I spend a lot of time there and see wolf sign from one end to the other.  If I had to guess I would guess there's less than twenty wolves in the entire piece, probably less than ten.  In an area with more deer than it can support, so that the deer die from starvation and getting hit by cars.  Wolf population density is down in the one wolf per ten to twenty square miles range, and has remained at that level or lower for the whole time.

That density is not much different than across the wolf populated part of Minnesota.  A pack with a small home range may produce higher density for a time, particularly if they have really good range.    I suppose if you get into really good range where there are no people you would find more stable higher density, but that's a whole other situation.  Our wolves are not controlled by people killing them so much as just plain lack of habitat.  They have largely occupied what areas they can.  In the sparsely populated (by people) areas that support wolves at the southern edge of their range the vast majority of the people living there have no idea the wolves are there in my experience.  Out of four million people living in Minnesota I would be very surprised if much more than four thousand had ever actually seen a wolf in the wild.

Dave


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## Branchminnow (Sep 1, 2009)

Nitro said:


> To my somewhat skewed view of the world, I would much rather have more wolves than some of the people that are on the planet....The wolves are just doing what wolves do.
> 
> I would much rather hear the truly wild sound of a Wolf howling than the thump of some thug's Rap music.....
> 
> But hey, that's just me.



This is just me.................if I make my living with sheep and something is killing my sheep then Im killing something that is killing my sheep.

BTW I place more value on Human life than animal life.


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## Branchminnow (Sep 1, 2009)

redlevel said:


> Well, then, let's just carry that to the logical end:  White people are intruders, because the Indians and the wolves were here first.  Far as that goes, let's just run the Indians back across the Bering Strait into Siberia and turn it all back over to the wolves and the buffalo and the antelopes to play.
> 
> I swear, if saber-toothed cats were discovered to be in existence, somebody would want to transplant a population to North America because they were "native to the area"  15,000 years ago.


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## Branchminnow (Sep 1, 2009)

miles58 said:


> Lets carry your argument forward to it's logical conclusion.
> 
> Fill an area with people and their trappings and you have New York City.  Ridiculous arguments do not produce solutions.



and this post is logical .....how?


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## shortround1 (Sep 1, 2009)

in the words of pillar of the community rodney king, can't we all  just get along! we only have to look to australia to see what happens when men try to make gods decisions. dingos were not native.


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## miles58 (Sep 1, 2009)

Branchminnow said:


> and this post is logical .....how?



Can NYC support itself?  Quite obviously not.  It needs a much broader support system to survive.

It's the logical opposite of depopulating a continent is it not?


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## bestbucks (Sep 1, 2009)

Why do you people make it so complicated? The wolf is a resource for thousands of tourists generating thousands of dollars. I myself spent quite a few hundreds of dollars watching wolves the last two summers in the national parks. It is just like a hunting license. You pay to kill an animal, manage the resource, and hunt it another day. Real simple, set up a fund to capture nuisance animals,relocate them, and pay the sheep farmer for his or her loss plus profit to boot. I hunt and observe wildlife, and there is a place for both. People seem to be losing their good common sense for their own gain. Certainly the all mighty force that blessed us with so many natural resources meant for us to use them, not abuse them. Our natural resources whether for profit,recreation, or admiration deserve our utmost respect. Things can be worked out for all to benefit and enjoy. Lets not destroy one for the benefit of the other. There are ways! Lets not lose our heads and our way. We can have both.


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## boiladawg78 (Sep 1, 2009)

In my opinion, the wolves have every right to be where they are and to do what they must to survive, whether it be preying on wild life or livestock. That being said, where are the ranchers rights? The livestock is his/her lively-hood; he has every god given right to protect that by any means necessary. The government and enviramentalist reintroduced the wolves, not native timber wolves but Canadian wolves, to the habitats which they formelry roamed with no consideration to the ranchers. I have a very good friend who lives in Anaconda. It is unbelieveable the amount of hatred the people of the area have for wolves. It seems as-though no one wants them. There are alot of folks in the area who would have no qualms about shooting wolves on sight, whether they were bothering livestock or just crossing a road.


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## jwool (Sep 2, 2009)

Im pretty sure that the wolves that were stocked in Idaho and Montana were a different subspecies than the original wolves.  I think I remember reading that they were grey wolves from canada, which are much larger than the wolves that originated in Idaho and Montana.


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## Tater Bug (Sep 2, 2009)

miles58 said:


> What part of the bit about putting the sheep in the barn didn't you get?  Sheep are livestock.  We also had cows, pigs  and horses.]
> 
> Some folks can't build a barn that big. I'm not going to build a huge barn to close my cattle up in to protect them from wolves. I'll take matters in my own  hands .  You don't have to be such a  baby.


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## redlevel (Sep 2, 2009)

bestbucks said:


> Why do you people make it so complicated?



What's complicated about "kill them all?"


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## paratrooper202 (Sep 3, 2009)

Nitro said:


> I would much rather hear the truly wild sound of a Wolf howling than the thump of some thug's Rap music.....




Me too, I hate the stuff!!!!!!!!!


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## miles58 (Sep 3, 2009)

balvarik said:


> I am at a loss as we have not such a thing as
> "Thug rap music".
> 
> Only hear that such trash when we head down to the SE.
> ...



Mike,  Been to Fargo Lately?  They have that stuff there too now.  Ran into it last winter when we buried Margaret.

Dave


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## CAL (Sep 3, 2009)

balvarik said:


> I am at a loss as we have not such a thing as
> "Thug rap music".
> 
> Only hear that such trash when we head down to the SE.
> ...



You got that right Mike.We have a whole lots more than we need!


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## Branchminnow (Sep 4, 2009)

Whole lot easier just to eliminate the problem............


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## Rem 742 (Sep 4, 2009)

*Not all but...*

hunting should be allowed and I'd love to kill one.


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## Rem 742 (Sep 4, 2009)

*Regarding stock*

Wolves should rule on public lands. No livestock on public lands. The current process allowing stock on public land is simply another form of welfare. In my opinion, the worst kind of free hand-out.


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## CAL (Sep 4, 2009)

Rem 742 said:


> Wolves should rule on public lands. No livestock on public lands. The current process allowing stock on public land is simply another form of welfare. In my opinion, the worst kind of free hand-out.



Explain please,wondering how you figure this?


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## miles58 (Sep 6, 2009)

MNDNR just removed (killed) 9 wolves two miles east of deer camp.   I don't see it making any difference one way or the other to me.  They might not kill a few deer now.  They for sure won't kill the coyotes around the cabin.  We for certain have plenty of deer there.  I figure there will be more wolves that replace them in a year or two at the outside.

The best wolves I have seen are those who have reason to fear people.   They trouble livestock less, the kill fewer pets and they are just "wilder"  Removing nine wolves in 48 hours isn't likely when they've been conditioned to avoid people.  I hunted them and tried to trap them when there was still a bounty on them, and believe me they are not easy with a little shooting at them.


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## contender* (Sep 7, 2009)

redlevel said:


> Wolves kill 120 sheep at ranch near Dillon



Them be my sheep I'm waging all out war on wolves, ESPECIALLY if they have been "reintroduced" to the area. There is a reason they were "unintroduced"..


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## .50 cal. flinter (Sep 23, 2009)

first of all if they had'nt been "unintroduced" you would have native grey wolves  instead of canadian wolves,so maybe this might not have happened. point 2 don't raise sheep in wolf or mountian lion country then complain that they ate your sheep.3rd. this might have been one of times that stuff happens. betcha it don't happen for a nother 50+ years.


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## elfiii (Sep 23, 2009)

Branchminnow said:


> This is just me.................if I make my living with sheep and something is killing my sheep then Im killing something that is killing my sheep.
> 
> BTW I place more value on Human life than animal life.



"Shoot, Shovel, Shut up" Good words to live by.


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## j.irvin (Sep 23, 2009)

I know in Northeast Ga coyotes are killing the crap out of our cattle and deer.  Nobody has ever offered to pay for our losses.  Thats why i carry a 22-250 with me every day just in case I see one. If I lived up there and farmed sheep, I would look at the wolves the same way.  Blast 'em all if they are killing livestock, period !!!


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## miles58 (Sep 23, 2009)

elfiii said:


> "Shoot, Shovel, Shut up" Good words to live by.



A very bad idea in country that supports wolves!  Enough of them have collars on them that it might well become a very expensive shot.  Just like coyotes are next to impossible after they have been shot at, wolves are much the same if not harder.   If you can't kill them legally, then it would be foolish to run the risk.  A felony will cost you your gun rights forever.

Not hardly worth the return IMO.

Dave


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 23, 2009)

Nitro said:


> To my somewhat skewed view of the world, I would much rather have more wolves than some of the people that are on the planet....The wolves are just doing what wolves do.
> 
> I would much rather hear the truly wild sound of a Wolf howling than the thump of some thug's Rap music.....
> 
> But hey, that's just me.


 
I concur.



Branchminnow said:


> This is just me.................if I make my living with sheep and something is killing my sheep then Im killing something that is killing my sheep.
> 
> BTW I place more value on Human life than animal life.


 
Only some Human life.



elfiii said:


> "Shoot, Shovel, Shut up" Good words to live by.


 
Can we use that policy on rap music playing thugs?


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## Bkeepr (Sep 23, 2009)

Would livestock guardian dogs have made a difference?  I have heard that Anatolian shepherds are pretty tough.
Up in Alaska there was recently a big stink because in some area the wolves were so successful at preying on the moose calves that almost none were surviving, so the gummint had a hunt using helicoptors to cull the wolves.  People needed moose meat to live off of.
Having said that, I would love to hear and/or see a wolf.


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## boneboy96 (Sep 23, 2009)

I'm just reading...don't shoot me.


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## miles58 (Sep 24, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Dave,
> Just get the Thelen's,Kueber's,Eischen's,Gartner's,Bittman's and Wattenhofer's to make us a drive to the west!!!
> 
> I can put enough shooters to cover from 113 to the Two Inlet road!!!
> ...



You want me to put together a family reunion?  I think maybe did we get all the members of just the Eischens clan all present we might have close to enough, but half of them probably would get lost in the woods (not that that would be an all bad thing).

Hard to make a wolf go very far in a straight line though and we'd have to push west  along a line from Osage north about ten miles.

Didn't you guys retain hunting/fishing rights up there?  I think the Mille Lacs band and the Lac du Flambeau Chippewa retained rights to most of East Central Minnesota.  They could legally take them anywhere, even off res as far as I know.  They can legally spear with lights in all the local lakes at any time.

Dave


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## Backlasher82 (Sep 24, 2009)

Bkeepr said:


> Would livestock guardian dogs have made a difference?  I have heard that Anatolian shepherds are pretty tough.
> Up in Alaska there was recently a big stink because in some area the wolves were so successful at preying on the moose calves that almost none were surviving, so the gummint had a hunt using helicoptors to cull the wolves.  People needed moose meat to live off of.
> Having said that, I would love to hear and/or see a wolf.



Great Pyrenees have been protecting sheep from wolves and bears for hundreds of years. They are placed with the sheep as soon as they are weaned and grow up thinking of sheep as their family. Pyrs are not aggressive but are extremely defensive and will protect their family fiercely and effectively against all predators. There are absolutely fearless, placing themselves between any attacker and the ones they defend and losing the fight is not an option to the Pyr. They adhere to Patton's motto, they aren't going to die for their flock, they are going to make the other poor (wolf or bear) die or leave.

If it sounds like I'm a fan of Great Pyrenees you're right. After a lot of research I found a Pyr and she was the most gentle, sweet and intelligent dog I have ever seen. Never showed any sign of aggression toward man or beast and went everywhere with me, including work and vacations. Everyone thought she was a pussycat because she was so laid back and I was content with her thundering bark to let me know there was a problem that I needed to address. I never noticed that she was always protecting me until it was pointed out to me one day. One of the guys I worked with was horsing around and acted like he was going to hit me with a broom, she was asleep 10-15 feet away. With my ninja-like reflexes I grabbed the broom as he swung it. It was then that my "attacker" pointed out that the slow moving gentle giant had situated herself between us so quickly I never even saw her get up. She never growled or acted like she was going to attack him but after observing her quiet defensive positioning several times after that there is no doubt that my little sweetheart would have done whatever it took to protect me.

The point to all this rambling is that a Great Pyrenees can be left with sheep and will instinctively handle all threats to the flock. In the case of large packs of wolves 2 or 3 Pyrs would be needed with thick spiked collars to protect their necks but no wolf or bear will ever make a Pyr back down. Another point is, after 4 years I still miss my baby.


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## miles58 (Sep 24, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Due to treaty agreement we may only par take upon reservation lands.
> 
> Oh well,
> You know why there are no natives in Wolf Lake?
> ...



When I was still married to first wife one time we were headed to home country through Menagha.  She wanted to know about that statue of Saint Urho in town.  I told her that wasn't really a rake he had, it was a Finlander fish spear and that the locals just put up the statue to taunt the game warden.  for ten years or so she thought the statues in Lindstrom were Ole and Lena, Saint Urho's mother and father.

Dave


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## Backlasher82 (Sep 24, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Sir,
> 2-3-4 Great Pyrenee's when equipped with studded collars are no match or a deterrent to a pack of FOUR grey wolves.
> I've seen enough dog carcasses to refuse to even think of using dogs as "wolf fodder".
> 
> ...



I trust your expertise with wolves more than any 20 of us Georgia folks that have never had to deal with them and I know that if I were in your shoes it would be open season on wolves.

Do you know of anybody who has tried using Great Pyrenees up there to guard sheep? I know they've been using them in Europe for hundreds of years, just curious if you know of anybody who has tried them.


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## Backlasher82 (Sep 25, 2009)

Yeah, I did a little reading after I posted and learned a lot more about the wolves up there. I gotta say I agree with the title of this thread.

Let me know if you start running low on ammo.


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## miles58 (Sep 25, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Warmbolds and Reynalds both sadly had bought into the idea and also using a Jake donkey too.
> 
> Five dead dog's and a dead Jake later folk's have stopped trying to use  animal buffer zones.
> 
> ...



Yeah.  That's about the size of it.  The way to think about them is that a single wolf is capable of taking down a moose or bison by itself if need be.   It usually takes a pack to bring down the big ones, and a single won't normally even attempt it.  But... it does happen.

Wolves that have been shot at are incredibly wary animals.   Watch the seasons out in Idaho and Montana.  I betcha they will be lucky to kill half the quota.  Wolves get killed by people who live with them and know over time where they go and when they go there.  They are smart and very, very people shy when they have been shot at.

Back when I was young and they still had a bounty on them they did all right in Minnesota where we put half a million people with rifles out in the woods every year, and in wolf country every farmer with stock had a loaded rifle handy.  My family started hunting deer in August when it got to be pig butchering time, and didn't stop until there was too much snow on the ground to walk any more which was usually some time in December.  We lived with wolves then and they population density there is not a whole lot different now.  A $50 bounty on the wolf plus the price of the pelt was plenty of motivation.  That was better than a weeks wages for a lot of people back then.

Think of it this way.  If the whole state of Georgia took to hunting coyotes with a vengeance you could get rid of a bunch right away.  The remainder would be near impossible to get though.  Wolves are like that, but just that much harder.

Here, the N/E half of the state has about 30,000 square miles of wolf habitat, give or take. They figure we have something like 3000 wolves so think of a density of one wolf per 500 to 1000 square miles and pack territories of from maybe ten square miles to fifty.  Lastly, think about how tough winter is up here, how long it lasts, then how thick the woods are come summer with mosquitoes that crossbreed with chickens (chiquitoes).  It takes a whopping tough person to be a successful wolf hunter, and god save me from every having a job that nasty.

Dumb wolves make mistakes and die.  Smart, wary wolves live to breed more smart, wary wolves.  We didn't fail for lack of trying to kill off all our wolves.  We didn't fail for lack of having enough skilled riflemen or trappers.

Dave


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## Muygrande (Sep 25, 2009)

Well I lived there jack(s) on a 10,000 acre ranch in Livingston 85 miles north of Yellowstone where the Wolves were supposed to be staying. I would routinely see them running down Antelope in our front fields. They would gang up, two would fan out one would pursue the goat and like an idiot they would run in circles like a rabbit and get cut off at the pass.
Problem is the owners had 1500 head of beef cows and they would kill the heck out of calves, the Rancher had to hire 3 extra guys during calving season to watch the herds, and had been issued shoot on sight permits because of the damage they had been seen doing and from evidence the USFWS, had claimed from the carcasses.
These packs had gotten across I-90 and even made their way into the Crazy Mountains North of Big Timer, MT where they weren't supposed to be either.

I was leaving the house one day on the way to the dealership and low and behold a young wolf had gotten around a cattle guard on the frontage road where I lived and had Farm fence on both side of the road and there was nothing between me and him for 1.3 miles to the next drive way. Poor P.O.S. had no idea he could jump that 5 foot fence once I started going from ditch to ditch trying not to accidentaly run over his soon to be carcass in my Dealer Demo Ram 1500 Hemi 4x4! 
Joker was pretty fast maneuvering side to side trying to keep from getting hit while I couldn't control that Ram real good on that snow covered road!

He ended up getting through a culvert on the side of   Highway I-90 where the speed limit is 80MPH and was looking back at me like ha ha I fooled you and guess what happened??


The epitomy of IRONY in Montana...

A Grass eating, bunny petting, lady in a SUBARU OUTBACK K.O.'d his butt running almost 65 when she hit him! 

My day was done! I got to work and my GM asked what all the grass on my truck was from, and I proceeded to tell them what happened, his remarks were...."Dam Shane-O if you'da got him I'da paid you a bonus!"


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## Muygrande (Sep 25, 2009)

By the way, they are killing for the enjoyment of killing too. Many times you come up on a slightly munched on calf or deer, only to let gone to waste.

And our deer herd was about 1100 to 1350 strong on the ranch in 2006, come 2007 it was down to about 275.

Some killed others had just vacated the area because of all the pressure the wolves had been putting on the ranch.

Last year in 2008 they had to cut out all hunting on the ranch. Wildlife had gotten so low, they stopped about 30 of the local residents from coming out to fill their freezers with much needed meat because the wolves had killed or driven everything away.


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## Muygrande (Sep 25, 2009)

But they're a natural predator huh Mike??

Here's a tidbit for the folks that think they(wolves) belong....

Elk and Deer were once Plains game not high mountain dwellers where the wolf has an advantage in stalking and taking them.
On the Plains these Elk and Deer were very capable of out running, seeing or maneuvering them. Only the weak or sick were able to be caught then.

Introducing Wolves to yellowstone where a human can get  close enough to pet an Elk was the dumbest daggum thing the grass eaters have ever done.
Don't think those Elk and Deer don't know where the park boundaries are either once out they become wild animals but inside they know there's no danger.

Another thing for 100 years the trait to be afraid of wolves has been decreasing and decreasing every time a new fawn is born. Instead of watching the horizons for danger we've bred into the elk/deer to be weary of things up in the trees!
How many of you have watched a yearling come out and look straight up in a stand?

They didn't do that 27 years ago when I started hunting!


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## LJay (Sep 25, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Pa leans more towards the 30/06 with 180gr RN core-lokt!
> 
> Mike


Ahhhh, Excellent choice!


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## shaggybill (Sep 26, 2009)

Muygrande said:


> Introducing Wolves to yellowstone where a human can get  close enough to pet an Elk was the dumbest daggum thing the grass eaters have ever done.




Wolves weren't introduced to Yellowstone, other than a period in the mid 1900's when they were extirpated, wolves have always been indigenous to that area.


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## shaggybill (Sep 26, 2009)

Muygrande said:


> By the way, they are killing for the enjoyment of killing too.



Wolves don't kill for fun. It's not energetically favorable. Where are you getting this stuff from?


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## Muygrande (Sep 26, 2009)

shaggybill said:


> Wolves don't kill for fun. It's not energetically favorable. Where are you getting this stuff from?



I watched it, I found it and talked to other ranchers that have had the same things happen, from living there for nearly four years on a 10,000 acre ranch bordering the Absarokee Wilderness, north of Yellowstone.

How about you?


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## Muygrande (Sep 26, 2009)

shaggybill said:


> Wolves weren't introduced to Yellowstone, other than a period in the mid 1900's when they were extirpated, wolves have always been indigenous to that area.



WHAT?????? There were NO wolves in Yellowstone before they re-introduced a non indigenous species(Canadian not timber wolf) to the park in the 90's. 
Now whether or not there "USED" to be wolves there is irrelevant. That was when the park was wild and animals were wary of predators becuase it was inherent traits they were born with! Being scared of dogs has long since been bred out of the park animals. 
You ride through the park and there's dogs in the back of 30% of the pickups, yapping or just checking out the critters.

If Charles Manson came into a store you worked at shopping for months on end and then finally hacked your tail up one day you'da never expected it either!!



Wisconsin whitetails were "INTRODUCED" to GA in a RE-STOCKING effort here in the 60's


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## WolfPack (Sep 26, 2009)

Geez fellas......Wolves will do what wolves need to do to survive, just like you folks will do what ya need to do to survive.  It comes down to respecting and learning to coexist.....just like I need to learn to respect your stupid rams or sheep!  Who really needs them anyways?  If you want to protect your herd.....you need to get dogs that are bred for herd protection......A Great Pyrenees...a dog with a thick coat for protection and a spike collar on.....and not just one of them....you get a pack.  Or get some Kangals.....those dogs will intimidate wolves and kill'em if they get too close.  Learn to coexists instead of your one deminsional solution...shoot'em all.  And who gives a BLEEP about whether it was canadian wolves ot yimber wolves....like that would change your mind about what you think of them??


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## Backlasher82 (Sep 26, 2009)

WolfPack said:


> Geez fellas......Wolves will do what wolves need to do to survive, just like you folks will do what ya need to do to survive.  It comes down to respecting and learning to coexist.....just like I need to learn to respect your stupid rams or sheep!  Who really needs them anyways?  If you want to protect your herd.....you need to get dogs that are bred for herd protection......A Great Pyrenees...a dog with a thick coat for protection and a spike collar on.....and not just one of them....you get a pack.  Or get some Kangals.....those dogs will intimidate wolves and kill'em if they get too close.  Learn to coexists instead of your one deminsional solution...shoot'em all.  And who gives a BLEEP about whether it was canadian wolves ot yimber wolves....like that would change your mind about what you think of them??



Some other person not familiar enough with the situation already suggested that and was promptly set straight.

And as it turns out, the folks that live up there and have tried every other way have come up with a way that does allow them to survive.


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## WolfPack (Sep 26, 2009)

Backlasher82 said:


> Some other person not familiar enough with the situation already suggested that and was promptly set straight.
> 
> And as it turns out, the folks that live up there and have tried every other way have come up with a way that does allow them to survive.



I forgot...your an expert on the situation?  I bet they didn't use Great Pyrenees or Kangals.......I know from personal experience that those dogs have done a good job with discouraging the wolves to try their luck.  People just wanna take the easy road and shoot'em all....instead of coexisting........claiming to have tried all of the methods and saying it didn't work is bogus.


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## satman32935 (Sep 26, 2009)

wow redlevel seems like anything you dont want around should be killed off all together ie wolves, hogs, yotes, what about the florida panther should we kill all of them also?


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## Backlasher82 (Sep 26, 2009)

WolfPack said:


> I forgot...your an expert on the situation?  I bet they didn't use Great Pyrenees or Kangals.......I know from personal experience that those dogs have done a good job with discouraging the wolves to try their luck.  People just wanna take the easy road and shoot'em all....instead of coexisting........claiming to have tried all of the methods and saying it didn't work is bogus.



 Try reading the posts in this thread.

Edit: Specifically post #46 on.


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## WolfPack (Sep 26, 2009)

Backlasher82 said:


> Try reading the posts in this thread.
> 
> Edit: Specifically post #46 on.



Ok ok ok...I'll give you that one, LOL.  I did not see your post or half of them on here anyways...I ain't got time to read'em all.....I just read the original post and shoot to the last few post before making a comment.  

BTW....are you familair with the Kangal?  Freakishly huge dog!


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## Throwback (Sep 27, 2009)

BUT BUT BUT.....PETA and Disney told me that wolves only kill the sick and weak. 

They wouldn't LIE would they? 

T


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## Rem 742 (Sep 28, 2009)

I think a liberal hunting season is sufficient. I hope they are not totally eliminated.


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## .50 cal. flinter (Sep 28, 2009)

*typical flat- lander*

well your response is from a typical knuckle-head rancher who goes out west to raise sheep in wolf country, grey or canadian. i don't give a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. then wants to "kill'em all" cause they kill his animals. and because he's a human it gives him the " right to kill every wolf or mt. lion he sees." just p***s me when i hear that crap.btw to guy who tried to run over the wolf then gloated when somebody else ran over it.hope you wreck your truck next time you try it!.


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## Throwback (Sep 28, 2009)

I'm beginning to LOVE Muygrande........

If ya'll need volunteers out there to kill them let me know. 

I hope to wack some coyotes this fall/winter for practice. 

T


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## Throwback (Sep 28, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Well newb,
> My family has been on this piece of soil since only 1891.
> We have dealt with wolves and continue to deal with them.
> You may dream of hearing someday of wolves howling,but that is something I grew up with and hear on days that end in Y.
> ...







T


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## redlevel (Sep 29, 2009)

satman32935 said:


> wow redlevel seems like anything you dont want around should be killed off all together ie wolves, hogs, yotes, what about the florida panther should we kill all of them also?



Feral hogs should be exterminated, down to the last piglet.  They are an introduced, non-native species, and they do tremendous amounts of damage to property and to wildlife habitat.  Release of feral hogs in Georgia and other states would be analogous to dumping a box full of wharf rats in your kitchen, except that the hogs do more damage and are harder to get rid of.

Wolves are a (re)introduced species in the area cited in the article.  This is not 1000BC.  This is 2009AD and wolves no longer have a place in that particular area.

There seems to be some natural control over coyotes.  Parvo and rabies runs through the population periodically, providing some population control.  I really think the depredatory  effects coyotes have on wildlife might be exaggerated a little.  I know from experience that they are capable of killing calves.   I still shoot them when I get the opportunity, but anything that depends on feral cats for a good part of its sustenance can't be all bad.

I don't really have an opinion on Florida Panthers.  I don't think they will ever recover in numbers sufficient to become a serious threat to wildlife or livestock.  Unlike coyotes and feral hogs, they are not very adaptable.


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## Muygrande (Sep 29, 2009)

Throwback said:


> I'm beginning to LOVE Muygrande........
> 
> If ya'll need volunteers out there to kill them let me know.
> 
> ...



You have just become fan number #71


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## .50 cal. flinter (Sep 29, 2009)

well , i'm as much at home in the woods as you are so forget about the suburb quote. and i didn't say you should not be able to defend your livestock aganst predation, i'm aganst the kill'em all people. be they wolves or panthers down here in the south.yotes are another thing, we have them down in ozark,al. and i'll prob. shoot one if it comes in range. and btw the last time i checked my kin were here in 1835. i could tell you about how the hogs got here to but do a little research and you will find out your self.


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## redlevel (Sep 29, 2009)

.50 cal. flinter said:


> i could tell you about how the hogs got here to but do a little research and you will find out your self.



You ain't been here long, so you need to go to the Hog forum and do a little search.  All that has been pretty well threshed out in the last year or so.  

It is a fact that the feral hogs we have in Georgia now are a result of the illegal release of hogs into the wild by so-called "sportsmen."   They are a non-native exotic invasive species having no connection to the pigs brought by the original Spanish settlers, so don't give me that old song and dance.

You do have a cute little attitude for a new guy.   "I'm just as at home in the woods as you . . . ."        and        "I could tell you about . . . . . . . . . but do a little research and find out yourself."  Your posts would be easier to read if you learned how to use the caps key, too.


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## Throwback (Sep 29, 2009)

Oh this is getting good....



T


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## .50 cal. flinter (Sep 30, 2009)

Well how about this? any better? Redlevel. Balvarik, my apologies i did'nt know you were a native of this land my mistake. Redlevel is also right about the russian boars. I jumped the gun on that comment. Sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain.I need a fact check progam in my head.Now lets all have a beer and tell me how bad i've stepped in it, which i have think i've done clear up to my butt.


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## redlevel (Sep 30, 2009)

.50 cal. flinter said:


> Well how about this? any better? Redlevel. Balvarik, my apologies i did'nt know you were a native of this land my mistake. Redlevel is also right about the russian boars. I jumped the gun on that comment. Sometimes my fingers get ahead of my brain.I need a fact check progam in my head.Now lets all have a beer and tell me how bad i've stepped in it, which i have think i've done clear up to my butt.



Well, from time to time, we can all have a little problem with our fingers flying in motion before our brain gets in gear, myself included.  Since you put it that way, I'll have a cool one with you, and even a shot of Corn Likker.  I've got a mason jar full back here somewhere that must have been aging a good six weeks.


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## Rem 742 (Oct 1, 2009)

I believe in hunting wolves but not extermination. Government should pay for killed stock.


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## miles58 (Oct 1, 2009)

balvarik said:


> Without destroying the land to be rid of the wilderness needed for wolves it is next to impossible in wild country by methods with ethic's.
> Unethically speaking it would be possible with use of cowardly methods.
> 
> Mike



Wolves are not big coyotes.  What Mike is saying is that they have very different needs than anything most of the forum members here have ever seen.

During WWII There was a POW camp on the north shore of Lake Superior in Canada over by Michipicoten.  No fences.  The staff and prisoners came in by boat.  The only escapee walked until he got to Grand Portage on the Minnesota border.  He turned himself in because he had no idea how far the stuff he walked through went on.    That's what wolf country is like.  Big, empty, wild.  Usually but not always it will be pretty rough as well.  Nasty swamps and heavy woods and rocky, if it wasn't, there would be people there using the land and the wolves would be gone.

Coyotes can live with people.  Wolves cannot.  Particularly wolves that have been shot at or see trapping pressure.

Mike,  This does raise an interesting question though.  Do you see more coyotes now than 30-40 years ago?  I see a lot more and in places where I know wolves are present as well.  Where I hunt deer we have a lot of coyotes, and the DNR says it removed ten wolves (the neighbors told me it was nine).  I do find those coyotes to be pretty wary, they don't come to call at all.  The ones I have seen during daylight had it in high gear just like a wolf would.  The bobcats on the other hand seem dumber than I am used to.

Dave


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## .50 cal. flinter (Oct 1, 2009)

*make mistakes*

Hey ya'll, thanks .Redlevel i'll take that shot of mt. dew and a few others as well.miles 58 some areas in ga. they are pretty bad in 1 area, the news is on the GON website they traped over 30 yotes in a 3000 acre area.


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