# animals and the H bomb effect



## LanceColeman

Please do NOT let me be the only one adding input to this thread!

There's been alot of talk of what type/wieght arrow and which broadhead lately. This is because bow season rapidly approaches us.

So why don't we all add some pros and cons.

There's no doubt due to the sheer number of animals taken by them and the extreme amount of time way back when when they were about the only thing available that 2 blade heads with 1"-1&1/4" in width will kill animals and do it effectively. Personally I have no use for any broadhead with less than 1&3/8ths cutting dia unless it has more than 2 blades.(read that as "PERSONALLY" It's just my choice.)

Thank GOD for Roger Rothaar and Ben Pearson! The pearson deadhead and original rothaar snuffer did alot for BHs and the effects are still seen today.

The "H-Bomb" effect:
 For those that are not sure what this is allow me to give you an idea. Place a HUGE blade through the ribcage of a deer... you will see it.

The one benefit I see to smaller heads and two blades is alot of times the deer jump, kick, and bound away only to calm down 50 or so yards down the trail to a walk, trot, or bound. three years ago I placed a spooky sharp 200gr ace super between ribs (up and down) going in and between ribs (up and down) going out. the buck, jumped 6' to the side and stopped to look around. Postured at the smaller buck next to him and started to walk off. the whole time every time his heart beat blood pumped out the wounds. less than 30 seconds later he took three steps backwards and fell over. year before last I sent the same broadhead through a six point hard quartering. It turned going through the deer and took out two ribs on entrance and two on exit. He literally tore a 3" thick pine sapling down trying to get out of there. His crash also came within 30 seconds of being shot (I could hear it) But if memory serves me he made it something like 80yds.

There's precious few heads I can think of that can do the damage of a shaving sharp 160gr snuffer. The original rothaar monster snuffer and a magnus I 4 blade with bleeders come to mind but precious few others. Hard quartering shots or heavy muscle flex reactions from super heads like centaurs and 2" simmons can cause wound channels to look like they were made with machetes instead of broadheads as well. Spikes hadda kill last year when I was hunting with him that I could literally stick my fist inside the entrance wound.

However... even though they won't live long  if shot right. A deer dies from a snuffer the exact same way he is acting the second after he was hit with it. When ya snappin a couple ribs on entrance and a couple ribs on exit they tend to turn wrong side out and go H bomb. And they leave as fast as a deer can leave. and usually die on the hoof running wide open. I've found snuffer killed deer actually hung up in vines and briars with all 4 feet off the ground, laying on their heads turned completely around in the trail (meaning they did a nose dive) and laying at the end of a skidded section of leaves 20 feet long.

You hit a scapula with a small 2 blade and you will get the same result. Deer tend to go ballistic from bone impact and cover way more ground than you think they should be able to in a short amount of time. You clean cut a single rib?? It's not that big a deal, you cut multiple ribs and or smash scapulas?? they go H bomb.

Keep a few things in mind. When they running this fast?? it's usually not alot of zig zagging involved. If they do make a turn or deviation in their flight?? it's normally a very very hard turn at an extreme angle. Other than that it's pretty much a compass bearing follow up (MOST of the time)*IF* Your animal goes from a straight wide open run to  a fast walk (this means more rounded drops of blood and less spatter) and is not falling like you think it should, EXPECT atleast ONE TURN every time the terrain changes or alternates (saddle, ridgefunnel creeks, hills etc)

When tracking these don't just keep yer nose to the ground. You put a hole in him about the hieght of your zipper.... remember this. Me Carter and Chris trailed one forever last year. at one time all three of us were sitting crouched with our hands on our knees staring at the ground for blood. All a sudden Carter goes "oh! there's blood." there was a 10" swath of blood painted down the side of a hickory sapling 3' off the ground.

Speakin of scapulas. Not all are created equal. Deer scapulas don't scare me one bit. However FEAR the bear scapula. This isn't a bone you can hold up in front of a light and see through. It's big, broad, and actually very thick. Covered buy muscles used to climb, dig and slap other bears which are in turn covered by tough hide and a fur coat which soaks up blood like a sponge. Stay off it, stay behind it. You'll be just fine.

Not all big blades are created equal. If there is one or two out there you don't want hard bone contact with it actually is big snuffers and the mag I with bleeders. Snuffers MA is pretty much just not real good at all. Keep her sharp, don't skimp on arrow or bow, place her through ribs broadside and the head will give you a blood trail you did not think possible. Catch a shoulder blade and you in heap big do do.

MagIs with bleeders leave massive blood trails. But unlike most other companies bleeders. Magnus Bleeders for the mag I are BIG and not only are they BIG they are of a different hardness and steel make up. They will "twist" and or "warp" instead of snapping off This can aid you greatly on soft tissue hits, but it can  seriously impede penetration on a hard bone hit. Heads like the zephyr sasquatch have 1/16ths more cutting dia on the main but smaller bleeders. There bleeders are also brittle. meaning you contact super hard bone?? They will snap off and not impeded penetration.

As with the rest of your gear You need to "pick and marry the right components" You don't just pick up any ole arrow to shoot off your bow. You have specific sizes and length and spines you shoot. You even have a feather or vane length and preference. shoot fire you even have a feather color preference! So if you are going to put that much thought and input in to your gear. Be sure and put the right blade with the weapon.  I've said it a thousand times, if it flies true off yer bow and you can get it super sharp it will work. And this is right. This does NOT however mean to place a massive 160gr snuffer on a 250gr arrow off a 38# bow and go hunting boar hogs. It also doesn't mean you need an ashby head a 800gr arrow and a 70# bow for deer.

Just like your bow, just like your arrow, find a medium that suits you and go for it.

I've been known to shoot one single type head for several years on end. I actually have the original Wensel Woodsman prototype Biggie Hoffman sent me when I was still stationed out in Texas that I've killed 23 big game animals with (she finally got skinny enough for me to retire her) And these days it's not uncommon to see me with 5 arrows in a quiver and every single one of them sporting a different broadhead. Now why would I do this?? Do I have this one in there incase it looks like I'll get this sort of shot and that one in there in case a bear walks by or a big boar hog?? No... It's because I've killed animals with pretty much every single one of them and I know they all fly good off my gear and which ever one I grab is going to do the job.

Last year I was on a prostaff (someday I'll learn) and used one specific head to kill all my critters. Year before that it took a woodsman, a snuffer, an ace super, and 4 different prototype heads to kill my critters. None were any more deader than the other.


----------



## SELFBOW

Good read, Thanks!


----------



## devolve

very good read!

I have done a lot of testing in this area for my own set up. I settled on two different heads that both fly PERFECT off my rose oak recurve. the muzzy 220gr ss phantom on a beamen ICS hunter, 500 spine, 
29.5" with 4, four inch feathers(regular NON weighted insert). 
My other is the magnus 1 140gr with 75gr insert on a 29.5", 500 spine beamen MFX 3 fletched with 5" feathers. 

I will have a mix of those this year in my quiver, I know they both fly spot on and where im looking out to my comfortable distance. 

and if I can find someone with a hog population I will try them out BEFORE deer season!


----------



## Barry Duggan

Thanks Lance.


----------



## ky_longbow

good stuff Lance............


----------



## ChrisSpikes

Recovery distance is definitely affected by the impact factor.  I really believe that when you run an arrow through a deer without hitting any bone, they don't know they've been hit.

I shot a big doe, actually the biggest doe I've ever killed, at 10 yards with a Landshark 160.  Arrow went between ribs in and out.  At the shot, she took one big hop back the way she came from.  She just stood there looking around like "What happened?".  I'm starting to think I missed her by the way she was acting, but I knew I had seen the arrow drill her.  About that time she blew.  Now I'm _REALLY_ thinking I missed her.  Then I see her legs go all wobbly, she sways back and forth, and then falls over dead as a hammer.

Shortest recovery I've ever had that wasn't a spine shot.  About 6 feet.

I've always shot big broadheads, so this was, and still is, a rare occurrence for me.  But I've got a friend who has shot most of his deer with the Landshark 125's, I call them mini-sharks.  He usually shot them 2 bladed, and would regularly have deer go down within 30-40 yards.  There just wasn't a whole lot of impact with the small head, and the narrow width also increased his odds of not hitting bone.

If I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, that I'd hit every deer from now on through both lungs???  I'd seriously consider shooting a smaller head.  But when I pull a shot and hit one off center, like say a little far back, I want to tear up as much junk as I possibly can as I'm passing through.

I have no doubts that I've recovered some deer with the bigger heads, that I'd have lost with the smaller ones.  

And even if they do run farther???  I'd rather follow an awesome blood trail 100 yards than a decent one 50.


----------



## Al33

Good stuff Lance!

If I were to pick just one broadhead for all of my big game hunting I would pick the 2 blade, 160 gr, Magnus I.  However, I am not restricted to just one head so I have a bunch of different ones for all kinds of reasons one of which is I like trying new and different things. Like Lance, were you to look inside my quiver you may find five different arrows with five different heads but that is only because I find arrows that fly well with a given head and that's what I want to shoot at the critters. This is especially true for my wood arrows. A Magnus I head might fly perfect on a given cedar shaft yet on another arrow from the same litter an Eclipse or Zwickey may be the ticket. I am not much into bleeder blades or four blade heads knowing that two blades are enough.

A lot of animals have fallen to the old Bear Razorheads and although they do not match up to the strength durability of say a Magnus head they are still just as lethal today as they were 40 years ago so if that's all I had to put on an arrow I wouldn't feel handicapped by them.


----------



## 2wheelfoster

Good stuff guys! Thanks for the info.


----------



## Supercracker

Not shooting deer, but the big snuffer has worked good for me on many pigs. It was also the reason for the extra weight for me. If it does get stuck between or hit a rib it will just bulldoze it's way through.



LanceColeman said:


> There's precious few heads I can think of that can do the damage of a shaving sharp 160gr snuffer.



And as an added fun bonus it will cut an adult rat completely in half if hit right.


----------



## ky_longbow

Supercracker said:


> And as an added fun bonus it will cut an adult rat completely in half if hit right.



my kinda guy !!!!!!!! LOL


----------



## markland

I have always been a big fan of large 4bl heads as I like to have big holes going in and coming out, just leaves more room for all that stuff inside to fall out, but you do have to setup your equipment or have the proper bow to ensure you get the arrow thru the animal.  If penetration or energy are limited then I would look at something else, but with "my" setups I use what maximizes my energy to put a 4bl head thru the animal and they do not go far and are easy to find when they do!


----------



## Barry Duggan

Killed one critter with a snuffer. Hit a doe with a classic broadside double lung shot...took out ribs going in and going out. Sounded like you slapped the side of a house with an eight foot length of 2' x 4'. She was standing in an old grown up road bed when I shot her, and she bolted like she was shot out of a cannon, ran about fifty to sixty yards, never veered off the road bed, and from the skid marks, looked like she died on the run. I'm thinking that might be the H bomb effect Lance is talking about.


----------



## robert carter

Good stuff Hillbilly. No doubt for me the big snuffer has left the best blood trails for I`ve followed. The Big Simmons next. BUT I must say as far as short bloodtrails the Woodsman wins overall. I`m talking my experience so it could be different for others.I`,e shot several deer with a woodsman that did`nt go 40 yards.Not a lot of blood on the ground but if you hear`m fall it don`t matter.


   I`m beginning to " rethink" my broadhead choice these days.As the shoulders can`t stand a lot of draw weight and I really enjoy shooting and light poundage allows me to shoot more. I `m thinking about shooting the old style woodsmans this year out of a medium weight arrow . I too shot some that I got from Biggie way back and they were killers. I killed 13 deer and pigs with a single head.It probably weighs 110 grains now from sharpening.I know they work. Also from experience I can tell you a deer that the arrow stays in will run and run and run till its dead on its feet.


   Lots of good stuff here these days.Food for thought.RC


----------



## Supercracker

More food for thought. I heard about deer getting shot, and seen pigs get shot with a clean pass through and not really run at all. Just jumped a bit and went back to snooting around til they bled out. (while a watermelon pig picked up and started chewing on my wooden arrow  )

I've cut myself with a razor and not even known it plenty. On the other hand a broken bone is not something likely to go unnoticed.

Could easily be that, with a clean pass through that doesn't contact a bone, the critter doesn't really feel anything. Or maybe feels nothing more than a bad bug bite or wasp sting.


----------



## hogdgz

Some good info here!!!


----------



## Slasher

ChrisSpikes said:


> Recovery distance is definitely affected by the impact factor.  I really believe that when you run an arrow through a deer without hitting any bone, they don't know they've been hit..



My experience as well!!! And I have lost a couple that have gone H-BOMB (Nice term and analogy Lance!!!) 

I know the blood trail isn't as great with a sharp 2 blade... But I think my chances of recovery are better with my 42# longbow! I had a yearling doe jump 4 ft and turn around sniff and then lick the bloody arrow!!! She then turned and walked about 15 yds and fell over...

However, there is a physilogical condition called* Vasoconstriction* that I believe is triggered when they go H-Bomb!!! 

_Vasoconstriction is the narrowing (constriction) of blood vessels by muscles in their walls. When blood vessels constrict, the flow of blood is restricted or slowed.

Vasoconstriction may be slight or severe. It may result from disease, medication, or psychological conditions._ taken from http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002338.htm

Thats why I use two blades, but I am looking at going to a bigger 2blade with my 57# longbow...


----------



## markland

Yessir Lance I understand what you are referring to with the "H" bomb effect, have witnessed it many times and yes the animals do tend to run further and with abandon thru the woods, even more so if they are on edge to begin with, but it is sweet when an unsuspecting deer walks by and you slip a broadhead thru 'em and they just stand around not realizing what happened and tip over, now that is pretty cool!  And even after years of doing this and countless animals taken with a bow, I am still amazed at the effectiveness of a well placed broadhead on an animal, it is purely inspirational!


----------



## Dennis

Good stuff Lance And i agree with what you said. Myself i have used the original Snuffers,Magnus,And Zwickey and have had no problems With any of them if i do my part. Now i've gone to Muzzy Phantoms, cause they fly good and should leave a good blood trail which i need cause i don't see as good as i used too! But i have not shot (hit) anything with them Yet, maybe this year


----------



## fountain

i like a head with at least a 1.5" cutting diameter..some say dumb, some say too much...and others say im limiting myself on heads.  well i see it like this..ya go the maggie 1, big snuffer, 190 interceptor, tree shark, and the centaurs with the centaurs being on the business end of two of my hinting arrers.  those are about the top of the line for big cuts, that i have seen and been around...sure there are more, but these are mean heads.

im like lance...i will have different heads in my quiver for different reasons.  i may come across a big hog...the smaller vpa's and the 190 interceptor are gonna prolly do better than a wide head..so i grab one of them..and then sometimes i like to just try different stuff.

the smaller diameter heads are gonna generally look to fly beter, but if your bow is tuned good then the wide heads will be good too.  when you get 2" or so, it better be tuned or you gonna have all types of problems, bad flight from the bow and bad penetration upon arrival.

longer heads tend to be better with penetration..for instance the 160 landshark and 190 interceptor..the 190 is longer and more people tend to beleive it will penetrate better.  think of it like this: the 160 is shorter with the same width...it is almost like it hits with all the width hitting at one time..solidly with very little progression of cut vs cutting diameter...basically you got 1 9/16" of head hitting and entering at the same time whereas with the interceptor you have a gradual entrance and then the width of the head enters instead of hitting all at once..thats the way i take it anyways, and it makes sense.

to each his on with the broadhead choice..but you better make it a wise one and KNOW what you/your bow can do with it.  you generally get one chance and it is a life at risk with  wounding/losing the animal as a possibility and none of us want that to happen.  know your equipment and how it handles whatever you may put through it..that is as important as where to hunt to see the animals.  if in doubt about a head, now is the time to try and see what happens in the yard.  if you want to try a head and dont have it..somebody here does and will gladly help out.


----------



## Apex Predator

Great stuff fellas!  

Since I committed to traditional tackle in 2007, I've killed deer and hogs with a Zwicky Eskimo, several with a Magnus I,  several with Wensel Woodsmans, a medium sized Snuffer, and VPA Terminator  (1 1/8").  I am pretty solid behind the VPA because I think they are the strongest, most easily sharpened head I've ever hunted with.  I'm gonna kill a pig with the larger VPA next.  Maybe this weekend.  I'm liking three blades more and more.


----------



## LanceColeman

RC,

That puts me right back in the boat with you as well. The THREE blades that I have the shortest blood trail averages with are Woodsmans, terminators, and Muzzy phantoms.

I've only killed four deer with Phantoms. Mark sent me some when Muzzy first bought them. But the farthest anything went was 80yds.

Last time I looked in my journals my woodsman average blood trail on deer was 63yds Anmd that included one hit too far back that went 150yds (boy she messed up my numbers! fortunately a pair of spine shots rectified that) Nothing I hit with a terminator last year went more than 40yds before piling up.(I absolutely love it when they fall in sight)

I believe that has to do with another factor as well though. I hunt a bit high  and I hunt that way for a reason. I'm not as much in to "picking a spot" as I am in to "finding an imaginary line through a deer thats going to bring my blade out right where brown deer hair meets white deer hair in the arm pit. Ya punch holes in the bottom of the bucket and the liquid empties fast.


----------



## markland

Excellent point there Lance and one all should take to heart, I don't pick my spot I want to hit necessarily I pick a spot where I want my arrow to exit and the rest is taken care of, you get a high entry and low exit and you are definitely going to have a great blood trail, even with those 2bl slitters ya'll like so much!!  LOL


----------



## ChrisSpikes

I like the idea of the consistent short recovery with the Woodsman, but I just have a hard time shooting anything that makes a hole I'd have to squeeze my thumb into.

Short recoveries seem to be the norm with the Grizzlies too.  I would imagine they would have the least impact of any head on the market, due to their good length and narrow width.  But there again, that's a mighty small cut.

I guess I'm just always thinking about making the best of a bad situation.

Lance, you remember the clot that fell out of that deer I shot at Horse Creek last year?  It was as big as your fist.  I'm pretty sure if I'd been shooting anything smaller than that Treeshark, even an Interceptor, the hole would've stayed plugged.

If you and RC promise to come trail every deer I shoot that runs out of sight, I'll shoot Grizzlies this year.


----------



## LanceColeman

Chris,

I've shot 3 deer and two hogs with grizzlies. the shortest blood trail was a high strung doe that done a 180 at the sound of the bow. The broadhead caught her exactly where her neck joins her skull. She pretty much went down right there. Other than that the grizzlies blood trails and or recovery distance didn't impress me much at all. I mean the distance wasn't bad...it wasn't any more impressive than alot of other heads though. The blood trails though ran one way or the other. either "decent" or almost non existant..The blood trails from them when boar shields were involved seriously did not impress me. They're a great head, they penetrate phenominaly. But if Doc hadn't done the ashby reports half the people shooting them today would not be shooting them.

And yes sir I remember that clot. Thats also the deer I was talking about with the wound I could place my fist in.

The thing about Holes Chris is they don't close up. Take one of your terminators amd ,measure a blade fron center of ferrule to the widest section of the blade (the rear trailing bevel) now multiply that by THREE. Maybe that will make ya feel better about cutting surface (LOL!) Aint nothing wrong with the heads you shoot bro. they do a wicked nasty job.

See thing is Chris you on the high side of the fence bro. You shoot in excess of 600grs of arrow wieght and you shoot bows in excess of 60#s. You push alot of juice behind ya arras bro. Only reason I ever see you needin grizzlies is if ya goin atter buff or sumpin. 



Here's another little FYI. CARBON arrows. Absolutely nothing out penetrates carbon arrows this side of a firearm.

 I love wooden arrows. and if I could ever talk Penny Banks in to making me arrows to hunt with thats wll I would ever shoot.

But Carbons have everything working in their favor as far as squeezing out every little bit of umph you and your bow muster. 17% more penetration by sheer volume of wieght due to the speed in which the arrow recovers from it's paradox. This also means it recovers faster when it impacts an animal (yes if you watch on slow motion video your arrow starts noodling again when it impacts a target). Due to the compound craze the majority of carbons carry massive spine deflections (meaning they stiff)which in turn means most trad shooters have to add heavier points to tune (more wieght equals more penetration) They're normally narrower then your ferrule of your broadhead which means less friction.

I hate ta say it boys, but Carbons dig deeper. Itsa stiffer, faster recovering, skinnier, slicker arrow.


----------



## NavyDave

You guys are killin me!  This will be my first year hunting trad and I was just gettin ready to make some new arrows.  I had planned on gettin the cheap Ace 2 BHs from 3rivers but now I don't know what to do!  Thanks alot!!!!!  Great info guyz!!


----------



## Tailfeather

Lance, et al, you have me rethinking....

Since I'm new to trad I've only shot one critter with a 2-blade head.......killed truckloads with 3 blades. Was going back and forth between Magnus 1's and Grizzlies.  I read the Ashby reports and decided on Grizzlies.  I know they aren't necessary on our little deer down here, but....

Those hatchet Magnus, though.....that's a good cut.  I may hunt with them after all.  I am a fan of blood trails rather than sporadic drops.

Regardless.....good thread fellas, with great info.


----------



## SELFBOW

I hate to say it but Lance ya gettin technical now and I thought trad was putting us back to basics


----------



## fountain

grizzlies are 300 gr right?


----------



## Tailfeather

fountain said:


> grizzlies are 300 gr right?


130, 160, or 200, I believe.


----------



## fountain

i confused myself..i was thinking bout the ashby head..they still a little small for my liking.  the magnus 1 2 blade will be an awesome head.

thing is:  where can i find the magnus 1 in a 4 blade?????  lance, carter..dear ol buddies..

those that are 3 blade-beleivers need to get with big jim on his head when he gets it back in hardened form.  its a whopper with an 1.5" cut and heavy weight


----------



## robert carter

Tail Feather, Magnus I heads are great heads .You can`t go wrong shooting them.Steel seems a little soft but that just makes them easy to sharpen. I got a bunch of them. I may put six up for sale soon.RC


----------



## Philbow

fountain said:


> i confused myself..i was thinking bout the ashby head..they still a little small for my liking.  the magnus 1 2 blade will be an awesome head.
> 
> thing is:  where can i find the magnus 1 in a 4 blade?????  lance, carter..dear ol buddies..
> 
> those that are 3 blade-beleivers need to get with big jim on his head when he gets it back in hardened form.  its a whopper with an 1.5" cut and heavy weight



http://www.kustomkingarchery.com/Glue-On-Broadheads/products/100/

#2602.


----------



## Barry Duggan

Braveheart Archery...fast shipment.


----------



## LanceColeman

Buckbacks, if you shootin canes off a selfbow with a stone point sinewed to it ya basic. if not?? sorry bro but them blades don't get that zero tolerance in their precision by accident and aint no guy sittin in there rollin them arrows out that straight by hand. Trad shooters can be worse than compounders when it comes to tolerances. Personally I'm not because I don't shoot that good. But I know some that are.

Navy Dave. Aint nothing in this world wrong with Ace BHs. They're one of the simplest and easiest heads on the market to sharpen. I'm not a fan of the smaller ones. But the big 200 and 175 supers leave a serious gash in a critter.

I just opt for a more damaging head. Now mind you if your arrows are super light or your bow low in draw wieght sometimes big heads can get you in trouble. 

But For the past several several several  years I've shot bows from 60#s down to 50#s at 8.5-10gpp and it seems like an awful lot of waisted energy when your burying your heads deep deep DEEP in to the dirt. As in I lost more heads because they hit rocks or stuck in tree roots AFTER they passed through a deer than from deer breaking them.


----------



## DePhil

3 years ago, I shot 3 deer with 160 gr Snuffers.   The longest retrieve was 40 yards, the other two went less than 10 yards, all were double lung shots-I saw everyone of them go down.  I've had Grizzly broadhead kills with 20 yard blood trails, lethal hits with no blood trails, and blood trails hundreds of yards long.  I've had good luck, and bad, with Magnus 1 4 blades.  

A double lung or heart shot is lethal, period!!  Pretty much the only shots that drop an animal on the spot are spine shots.  No matter what broadhead, a gut shot is going to be a long trail.  A nervous animal will go further when shot than a relaxed animal.  A poorly shot animal will go further when pressured than an animal that is left alone.  I shot a decent buck last year that was nothing but guts.  I recovered him 100 yards from where I shot him because I sneaked out and came back the next morning.  Had I pressured him, I never would have found him.   

Any animal I see or hear go down is great-2 yards or 100 yards, it doesn't matter.  Keep 'em sharp, put 'em thru major organs, and you've got meat!!!  The most important thing is to learn how to blood trail.  A poorly hit animal can often be found, but it takes patience, persistence, and a lot of finesse.


----------



## ChrisSpikes

LanceColeman said:


> ...it seems like an awful lot of waisted energy when your burying your heads deep deep DEEP in to the dirt.



If somebody would make a 2.5" head that I could get to fly, that's what I'd be shooting.  I'm driving Treesharks into the dirt like tent pegs now.

But I am different than most, and need every drop of blood on the ground I can get.  Trails that most folks can follow at a trot??  I have to take my time and go from drop to drop.  I can't see blood 10 yards up ahead.  A bloodtrail where there's 3 feet from one spot of blood to the next is hard on me.  But, I am relentless.


----------



## ScottGray

Good stuff!!!!! 

The first deer I killed with a bow was with a big ol' Simmons Treeshark.  Hit her perfect and she tore out of there like a cat with turpentine on its butt. She ran about 50 yards out of sight and I heard a loud crack and then silence. When I walked up on her she had ran into a tree head first at full sprint speed. Her neck was snapped and her heart and lungs ventilated. I too belive in the big cutting diameter heads.

Second one was with the same head. Hard quartering away, she spun at the shot and I drilled her in the hindquarter going away. Found her 60 yards away. Blood trail was about 4 foot up on saplings. Looked like someone has turned a water hose on and sprayed the foliage.

Treesharks are in my quiver this year.


----------



## BigJim Bow

I'm shure that there is no doubt that any broadhead on the market will kill an animal (placed correctly that is). The one thing that has remained a constant in most every camp I've been fortunate enough to be in is lost blood trails. If I can put more blood on the ground, I'm all for it. 
 Bob Morrison aka Morrison Archery aproached me at ATAR this past weekend interrested in seeing the new BIG JIM head. I sent the 300 g with him to try out. He is planning on taking some deer with it and his 48lb bow this year. I'm getting a lot of feed back on this and should have some hardened proto's this week. 
I can't wait to try them out. Dendy suggested pigs, but due to time constraints, may have to borrow a goat from the neighbor (just kidding)
BigJim


----------



## LanceColeman

I think alot of people get a bit spooked and over compensate with small heads. Theres nothing wrong with the "better safe than sorry" mentality. But there's alot of myths about big heads that have been broken by fellas NOT shooting big jim draw wieght bows.

The lightest wieght I have severed a spine with is 51#s with a 520gr arrow and a woodsman. The biggest head I have severed a spine with was a 4 blade zephyr sasquatch.

My biggest issue in the past several years of hunting with less than optimal shots has not been gut shots. It's been the occasional too steep an angle and only getting one lung shots. A single lung shot deer can go a long LONG way (ask Spikes) Even though it's pink foamy blood, it needs to be treated like a gut shot and backed out on and left be. If you jump it up?? It needs to be pushed and pushed hard. On a single lung hit a BIG broadhead is definately a massive favor in your direction.


----------



## Apex Predator

Send me a few Jim, and I'll put a test hole in a pig for you.  I'll take a few days off if I have to!


----------



## belle&bows

All of this is some good stuff. I really like my Stos which is 1 1/8"
But changed over to the 160gr. Magnus 1 for turkey and and am really liking the way they fly. The 1 1/2" cut is a big plus for me as well. I need as much blood on the ground as I can get.


----------



## LanceColeman

belle&bows said:


> All of this is some good stuff. I really like my Stos which is 1 1/8"
> But changed over to the 160gr. Magnus 1 for turkey and and am really liking the way they fly. The 1 1/2" cut is a big plus for me as well. I need as much blood on the ground as I can get.



And thats one of the main issues that presses me in the direction I travel. with heads from 1"-1&1/4" I have had blood trails that range from "profuse" to "nonexistant" with heads over 1&1/2 wide or 3 blades?? I have never (read that as "NEVER" had nonexistant blood trails. Had some I may classify as "sparse" but there's always been blood PROVIDING I GET AN EXIT WOUND.


----------



## Jake Allen

Fantastic thread Lance, and folks! 

What about the other way, light poundage, light arrows.

Say a 1716 shaft, 28", weight 300 grains, (425 with head)
125 grain broadhead, shot at 40 pounds.
This is for TNGIRL, and she can put the arrow in a good spot on the animal.

Tested, and fly good:

Mangus II, 125's
Phantom 125's
Buzz Cut 2 Blade (I don't like these; I can't get them sharp)
Zwickey Black Diamond (with a short insert, these come in at 130 grains)

How about a 100 grain Nap Thunderhead?

Ideas, thoughts on these heads?

Thanks


----------



## Elbow

Thanks Lance!

I am having some arrows made, with field points and broad heads. After talking with the fellow that is making them and going over broad heads, whether two blades or the brand...like "Steel Force Premium" or "Zwickey",  and screw-in VS glue-in....whoa, my head was spinning.

Any input to this is greatly appreciated!
Good thread Lance!!!
El


----------



## Apex Predator

I would definitely stay away from any modular head with that set up Jeff.  I would be shooting a 1" two blade.


----------



## Barry Duggan

Jake have you looked at the magnus stingers 4 blade. Bleeders are small, and should not impede penetration too much, but should help keep the slit open.


----------



## LanceColeman

Jake, 

I'm sort of in the boat with Barry AND Marty on this one at the same time. Steer clear of modular THREE BLADES. itsa needle or trocar type point that doesn't give you that instant slice cut on contact you desperately need with that bow and arrow. And again the junction of the 3rd blade dramatically decreases the MA of any broadhead.

HOWEVER I can't say all modulars because mag stingers (although I am not a fan of them) Steel force, and Muzzy phantoms are all considered modular. And these all have that instant cut on impact thats needed.

In my opinion out of those the muzzy phantom is the ticket. Fresh out of the package thatsa spooky lil head. and getting it to fly true is about as hard as getting a field point to fly true.

*IF* she's going with a traditional one piece style head then any of the standard sizes would be optimal PROVIDING THEY ARE EXTREMELY RAZOR SHARP. This is a simple test anyone can do at home. Take a broadhead you've been shooting all summer that you can grab in your hand and not cut yourself, and take a freshly sharpened ready to hunt broadhead of the same make and shoot both in to a BH target and look at how the sharp one penetrated close to twice as deep. sharpness is a HUGE penetration factor.

That said. if she'd push that arrow up to around the 500 mark she would not even be close to critical. Like I said above. Carter has a pic on here somewhere of a doe shot through the shoulder blade with an inch and 3/4 wide centaur broadhead. he shot it with a total arrow wieght of about 600 grs off a 48# widder. and we all know widders are slow (LOL!)


----------



## trad bow

Excellent thread . I have killed one or two animals using different heads and I use the Phantoms right now for my hunting. The first prerequisite for a broadhead is for it to be sharp and to stay sharp. Some heads sharpen easily but dull just sitting in a quiver.  No matter the style if it ain't sharp it ain't no good. Bone hit deer or hogs tend to scat on out a ways as do game shot good with a dull broadhead. I prefer the larger heads with my setup and use a two blade with a bleeder blade. Works for me but there is enough info here to help out all of us to find the best bh for your set up.


----------



## markland

I still love my Muzzy 125gr 4bl heads and still shoot some animals with them everyear, but I do believe I get a little better penetration with the Phantoms so they are my main go to broadhead, but I would not hesitate to shoot anything with the others and have taken alot of animals with them.  I would always sharpen the trocar tip on a diamond stone and get them pretty sharp as well so basically had the best of both worlds, cut on contact and bone busting ability, but let's face it, there is not much bone breaking energy in the setups we use now, just enough to get it done, so I would rather concentrate on making sure my arrow is all the way thru the animal then anything else and that requires more arrow energy, whether shooting higher draw weight or using more arrow weight, especially if you are going to be shooting a very large head or rather large multiblade head.


----------



## Jake Allen

Thanks for your input Lance, Marty and Barry.
1 piece, cut on contact, and very sharp.

Good point to get the arrow weight up to 450 at least, maybe 500.
20 or 30 arrows, and she will be back in he middle of the target.

Lance, I think this is the doe RC and his widder sharked. 
Plus, some Chris damage.


----------



## Slasher

I don't use 3 blades ONLY because while I can get them semi-sharp, they aren't that razor sharp don't know I've been cut sharp!!! I like lotsa blade, but I guess I am more of a magnus I, Zephyr sasquatch, Eclipse kinda guy!!! BTW- I really like the eclipse in my 42# longbow!!! Lotsa good blades, but I like what* I can* sharpen well!!! I've tried the tiger sharks but have trouble getting as sharpe as a good double bevel heads... I have some tusker single bevels that while I can sharpen them, I haven't learned how to get a REALLY sharp edge on a single bevel... Just lazy I guess... Chris musta shot that thing with a hatchet!!!


----------



## robert carter

Actually that two different Nannys. The one up top shot with a centuar and the other with a Mag. I .Chris shot his with a chainsaw.RC


----------



## Barry Duggan

What kinda chainsaw? Regular or skip tooth chain?


----------



## ngabowhunter

Will someone please tell me what the difference is in a Magnus I and a Magnus II. The Magnus website doesn't list them like that. The ones I have are called a Magnus 4 blade MA150. I don't use the bleeder blade in mine, because they want fit with the long steel adapters that I have.
Thanks


----------



## robert carter

If I were gonna shoot glue on heads out of a 40 pound bow like the Ladies I would shoot the 190 grizzley. If the present arrows would spine with it the arrow weight would get up about where you want it.RC


----------



## ChrisSpikes

ngabowhunter said:


> Will someone please tell me what the difference is in a Magnus I and a Magnus II. The Magnus website doesn't list them like that. The ones I have are called a Magnus 4 blade MA150. I don't use the bleeder blade in mine, because they want fit with the long steel adapters that I have.
> Thanks



If I ain't badly mistaken, the Mag I is 1 1/2".  The Mag II is a good bit smaller, like 1 3/16".


----------



## Al33

robert carter said:


> If I were gonna shoot glue on heads out of a 40 pound bow like the Ladies I would shoot the 190 grizzley. If the present arrows would spine with it the arrow weight would get up about where you want it.RC


Another difference in the two is weight. The Magnus I is 160 gr and the II is 125.


----------



## NavyDave

What about this whole matching the bevel with the left/right wing arrow.  Does it really help with arrow flight?


----------



## robert carter

From what I`ve read it helps in penetration. I think it was chris that told me about shooting a board with one at the shop. Regular heads would stick in the board and the single bevel would split the board in two.RC


----------



## ChrisSpikes

NavyDave said:


> What about this whole matching the bevel with the left/right wing arrow.  Does it really help with arrow flight?



I don't know about helping with arrow flight, but like Robert said, it helps with penetration.

If your head is gonna want to twist to the right upon impact, you want your arrow already spinning to the right.

It will rob alot of energy if the arrow has to change direction of spin.

And yeah, I tried it on some 1 X 4's.  Single bevel would split it wide open as long as the blade didn't strike perfectly perpendicular to the grain.


----------



## LanceColeman

yea..... you don't get the "s" with a single bevel if you use opposing helicals. seems it needs to be spinning in the right direction from the get go.

They key to a grizz is loosening the extreme bluntness of the chisel tip. it's always too wide an angle and needs to be narrowed slightly. If ya don't do this it's more of a "chop on impact" instead of a "cut on impact" The elrandes in 150 and 190 carry a longer cutting surface. and trust me a longer cutting surface DOES matter.


----------



## Necedah

This is the best thread I've read all year  
After a difficult season last year with Wensel Woodsmens I went looking for a better broadhead.  I ordered some Silver Flames last week. If this thread was a week earlier, I would have probably ordered Magnus II's.
Keep the thread going it's answering a lot of my questions.

Dave


----------



## LanceColeman

ya outa my league there Dave ol buddy. my bow cost less than a set of grizzly sticks with silverflames on em.


----------



## Dennis

Dave ain't playing around this year!!!


----------



## johnweaver

Thanks for the info guys, this is the kind of stuff that I like  to find on here.


----------



## NavyDave

Ordered my 190 el grandes today!!  Can't wait!


----------



## ChrisSpikes

I'm about to run out of Treesharks, and am too broke to order anymore.  I sure wish Lance.......uh, I mean, somebody would come out with a big broadhead BEFORE BOWSEASON and put me on their prostaff!


----------



## LanceColeman

ChrisSpikes said:


> I'm about to run out of Treesharks, and am too broke to order anymore.  I sure wish Lance.......uh, I mean, somebody would come out with a big broadhead BEFORE BOWSEASON and put me on their prostaff!



I'm tryin man I'm tryin...... there's just sa much werkin against me right now. like the same thing werkin against you..... I'm broke too!


----------



## fountain

how do you run out of broadheads????  you shot through all you stuff and still got em..if ya got 1, then ya got enuff.  that makes you focus on killing that animal that much more..

do you know somebody that has like 12 dozen+?


----------



## ChrisSpikes

I only had like 5 treesharks left when the season started.  Bent one or two and now I'm down to 3.  I wouldn't go to church with 3 broadheads.


----------



## fountain

i wouldnt either..its a crime and you might sit on one!

3 heads is a plenty..i only got 3 centaurs and 2 tree sharks..but i cant kill anything so i really dont need those!


----------



## LanceColeman

I low too,....... Don't think I got but about 80 or so usable heads left. 2 yrs ago I was prolly sittin on 200. I tend to give a bunch away.

Speakin of which I need to find doogy some and gettem mailed to him.


----------



## markland

Heck I get all the broadheads I can use for free and still keep on using the same 1 over and over again, I guess I'm just frugal or cheap!


----------



## devolve

I got a dozen and a half 220 gr phantoms. i should be good for the first week of deer season


----------



## ChrisSpikes

devolve said:


> I got a dozen and a half 220 gr phantoms. i should be good for the first week of deer season


----------



## Apex Predator

I might have to order some of those big Centaur two blades if Big Jim don't step up to the plate with those big three blades!


----------



## Slasher

*Lil Big Horn....*



devolve said:


> I got a dozen and a half 220 gr phantoms. i should be good for the first week of deer season



So your stand site will look like custer's last stand at the battle of lil bighorn?


----------



## markland

Or what my stand site looks like after a armadillo comes strolling by!  LOL


----------



## fountain

big jims heads will be coming out eventually.  the centaurs are awesome heads.  i think i will stay with them


----------



## LanceColeman

markland said:


> Or what my stand site looks like after a armadillo comes strolling by!  LOL



(sigh) I don't have dillers up here... BUT I gotta ton of grey squirrels. and they a WHOLE lot easier to miss than a diller is getta few of em under me lat emorning?? I can make it look like a field of flourescent yaller 3 peddled flowers a growin in da woods.


----------



## NavyDave

I just saw the video for the centaur 2 blade!  All I gotta say is WOW.  Kinda whished I had seen that before I bought the grizzlies...


----------



## devolve

NavyDave said:


> I just saw the video for the centaur 2 blade!  All I gotta say is WOW.  Kinda whished I had seen that before I bought the grizzlies...



WOW! I just watched it...WOW!


----------



## robert carter

Gotta love them Treesharks. I think three rivers has them for 24 bucks for 3. Thats about 10 bucks cheaper than the Centuar. RC


----------



## fountain

robert carter said:


> Gotta love them Treesharks. I think three rivers has them for 24 bucks for 3. Thats about 10 bucks cheaper than the Centuar. RC



either/or..they both some baaaaad heads...

speaking of..i wish 3 rivers would come out with a yearly master catalog with everything the carry in it..the dont have the sharks in the mags., nor the magnus 1 4 blade.  they have a lot more on the internet


----------



## LanceColeman

fountain said:


> either/or..they both some baaaaad heads...
> 
> speaking of..i wish 3 rivers would come out with a yearly master catalog with everything the carry in it..the dont have the sharks in the mags., nor the magnus 1 4 blade.  they have a lot more on the internet



Ya do realzie they gotta website right TJ ol buddy?


----------



## Apex Predator

I just bought a three pack of the "smaller"  1 3/4" wide Centaurs to try out.


----------



## markland

Your right Lance, I just cannot resist the urge to fling an arrow at a squirrel as well, especially later in the morning, so I got a bunch of those arrows stuck all around me as well, but it is fun!
Hey where's all the Phantom love at???  I don't think you can go wrong with the flight, performance and damage those Phantoms with bleeder blades do on animals, they make a nasty hole!


----------



## Apex Predator

If they make a glue on version, I'd try some Mark.  I want a 250 grain head though.  I like to glue in my own steel insert to make the weight I want.


----------



## markland

Well heck 220grs is close enough!!!  Your just being picky!


----------



## Apex Predator

220 grains huh?  I may have to try them.


----------



## fountain

Apex Predator said:


> 220 grains huh?  I may have to try them.



you get them and send me the centaurs


----------



## fountain

LanceColeman said:


> Ya do realzie they gotta website right TJ ol buddy?



i do, but i like the catalog..they give ya pics to look at!...and the catalogs are transportabe from one room to another


----------



## devolve

Apex Predator said:


> 220 grains huh?  I may have to try them.



they really do fly great. I have been shooting them on a 29.5" beamen ICS hunter 500. Out of my 51# rose oak (53@ my draw).


----------



## hogdgz

markland said:


> Your right Lance, I just cannot resist the urge to fling an arrow at a squirrel as well, especially later in the morning, so I got a bunch of those arrows stuck all around me as well, but it is fun!
> Hey where's all the Phantom love at???  I don't think you can go wrong with the flight, performance and damage those Phantoms with bleeder blades do on animals, they make a nasty hole!



Mark, I have a few phantoms I am gonna try out this year!!!


----------



## robert carter

Phantoms are fine heads. I gotta few of them myself.

  Lance if you`ll send me a few of them vpa`s you gave me last year and I`ll buy Chris some Treesharks and two of the three of us will be happy....RC


----------



## LanceColeman

I tell ya what.......... since I don't shoot for em no more?? How about you buy me some landsharks and I'll send both yall what VPAs I have left heh heh heh..well... cept for my wiiiides. I think they opted against makin the 250 wides (and they wonder why their shooters and promo people left em) and whats out there is prolly the last of em. And I LIKEY them beasts!


----------



## markland

Take ya some critters with those Phantoms and post them up on our Muzzy Moments page and we can get them up on the website!


----------



## devolve

markland said:


> Take ya some critters with those Phantoms and post them up on our Muzzy Moments page and we can get them up on the website!



im planing on it


----------



## Dennis

Me too and yes they do fly good and i have found that a KME sharpener works real good on them also.


----------



## bam_bam

Dennis said:


> Me too and yes they do fly good and i have found that a KME sharpener works real good on them also.



Hows that KME sharpener? I been lookin hard at them. Its between the KME or razors edge like Chris Spikes uses.


----------



## LanceColeman

Big Jake distributes the KME and is in business with em Bam Bam. Jake don't deal with nothing but what he deams "the best" Not sayin it's better than what Chris uses (because Chris gets some freeked out scarey edges on his blades man!) But if Jake endorses it and promotes it it's got to be worth it's salt.


----------



## ChrisSpikes

LanceColeman said:


> Chris,
> 
> The thing about Holes Chris is they don't close up. Take one of your terminators amd ,measure a blade fron center of ferrule to the widest section of the blade (the rear trailing bevel) now multiply that by THREE. Maybe that will make ya feel better about cutting surface (LOL!)


Let's revisit this point and discuss it a little further.

If I measure the cutting surface of an Interceptor w/bleeder blade, I find a total cut of 2.69".  That's 1 9/16ths for the main blade, and 1 1/8th for the bleeder.  A Tree Shark measures a measley 2 inches.

Even though the Interceptor has 34% more cutting surface, I consistently get better blood trails with the Tree Shark.  Time and again.

That's not to say that I haven't seen incredible blood trails with the Interceptor.  Sometimes they're horrific!  But if we're talkin' degree of heaviness, and consistency, the Tree Shark wins hands down.

Thoughts???


----------



## ChrisSpikes

bam_bam said:


> Hows that KME sharpener? I been lookin hard at them. Its between the KME or razors edge like Chris Spikes uses.


Either system will work.  And in the end, it's not the sharpener that's determines the final edge, but the person using it and their knowledge of the sharpening process.  Let's face it, both systems are nothing more than a clamp that holds the blade at a consistent angle to the hone.

I've fooled around with the KME a little bit.  It's a very well designed and high quality tool.  Because of its need to roll on a flat hone, it seems to work best on straight, or slightly convex blade shapes.

Because it can be used on any hone, including steels and rods, the Razor Edge guide works well on straight, convex, AND concave blades.  And since I shoot Simmons heads, that's the one I need.


----------



## Dennis

I did not like the kme for a long time until i bought some really large diamond stones. I have always used eather Snuffer or 2 blade zwickey and used the tru angle system cause im not worth a hoot at sharpening things.


----------



## Barry Duggan

At some point in time, I sure hope someone comes along and summarizes all the info contained in this thread. 

Lance, sure hope you didn't lose much sleep wondering if you were going to get any replies to your original statements.


----------



## LanceColeman

Lance slept like  fat snoring baby last night. Something to do with being on a roof yesterday in this heat.

I personally don't use sharpening systems unless you call a fresh clean file a sharpening system. I file them until they shave hair and thats where I stop.

Lets Do revist it Chris. And see what we can come up with. we're using a large 4 blade result versus a massively large 2 blade result correct??

OK first question... the H bomb effect. is there a difference in the animal reaction and speed in which they leave the scene between the 4 blade hit and the 2 blade hit? Lets rule that out first. More blood will make closer ground contact from a bounding whitetail verus a whitetail showing you exactly how fast they really can move.


----------



## hogdgz

markland said:


> Take ya some critters with those Phantoms and post them up on our Muzzy Moments page and we can get them up on the website!



Sounds good, never shot anything with a phantom but I got plenty of slick heads behind the house I am gonna try em out on.


----------



## ChrisSpikes

LanceColeman said:


> Lets Do revist it Chris. And see what we can come up with. we're using a large 4 blade result versus a massively large 2 blade result correct??


Yeah, that's right.



LanceColeman said:


> OK first question... the H bomb effect. is there a difference in the animal reaction and speed in which they leave the scene between the 4 blade hit and the 2 blade hit? Lets rule that out first. More blood will make closer ground contact from a bounding whitetail verus a whitetail showing you exactly how fast they really can move.


There doesn't seem to be any difference in reaction between the two heads.  It just varies from one deer to the next, depending on what is hit.  With either head, I've seen them bound off on shots through nothing but ribs, and run off like their tail was on fire if a leg bone is hit.

I know you've said deer shot with a big Snuffer tend to explode out of there, and run hard til they drop.  And that was the case with the ONE deer I've shot with it, even though I hit nothing but ribs.  But that doesn't happen consistently with either of these heads.


----------



## LanceColeman

Thats got alot to do with the mechanical advantage disabilty of the snuffer bro. Even with a 4 blade (especially the way you sharpen them) You still get a "slice" "slice" on impact.

Single bevel on anything??

I'm thinking you are getting basically a "cross" with the four blade and getting a GASH that has a tendancy to have one side of it open more than the other with the big 2 blade right?


----------



## fountain

when the deer is hit, adrenaline goes through the rood and the heart and lungs are pumping double time..if ya got a big gash, cross or hole, the body cavity will fill up to the hole on the exit side( give there is one)...the lungs are heart and pumping blood out of the wound and if there is not an exit the arrow will have a tendency to pump in and out causing massive internal damage and blood blowing out of the entrance hole.  the h bomb effect can work to you advantage here..extreme adrenaline, extreme heart/lung work pumping blood as hard as they can, resulting in more blood moved.  

2 blade heads for me..with the magnus 1, less resistance.  with the centaurs/sharks..lots of damage, lots of blood loss, and a big cut..it all boils down to puttin it in the right stuff.  ive got better blood from one deer by shootin it in the butt than i have in the lungs..put it where the blood pumps and it will spill out..if ya go a low exit in the good stuff, then ya set.  pick what you like and KNOW you can get it sharp and practice shot placement.

the hog chris shot with the snuffer left a decent blood trail, but i gotta agree with chris, the sharks have left better for me too...and i've shot some in some "not so good" places and still got good blood right up to a dead animal.

with the 4 blades you do get the "cross" or "x" cut...and i have killed several deer and hogs with 4 blade heads...they bled and died and thats about as far as i have thought into it..but ya reckon the "flaps" from the cross or the x may hinder the wounds in the hide a little??  prolly not enough to matter, but ya reckon?


----------



## ChrisSpikes

LanceColeman said:


> Single bevel on anything??


I've only killed 3 deer with single bevels.  I ground some Interceptor blanks in '07 and hunted with them.  I couldn't tell any difference in the blood trails or the H bomb effect, so we'll lump them in with the double bevels.



LanceColeman said:


> I'm thinking you are getting basically a "cross" with the four blade and getting a GASH that has a tendancy to have one side of it open more than the other with the big 2 blade right?


Yeah, pretty much.  Let's look at a few pics.  

These are from Interceptors and one is a Landshark.  They're both the same size cut.  You can see the "cross" in most of them.

























These are from Treesharks.


----------



## LanceColeman

Hair flaps TJ and in the case of Hgs bears and big northern deer? FAT.

Notice in Chris's pics how the big gash left by the big 2 always has one section wider?? and no flap to cover it??

I'm in agreement with RC on the arrow left in the animal. ya wanna see one go H bomb?? watch it try and run through the woods and that arrow bump trees or vines.... man they ever will run as fast as they can with an arrow stickin out of em.

Chris,

You get such a massive gash I do sort of wonder if it's because of the drooping or open section of the wound. There's no flap or tissue floppin in such a clean cut.

You get that open section towards the off side of the angle every time. It's almost impossble to hit a deer dead 90 degree broadside..... ESPECIALLY when ya sittin in a tree and inducing a downward angle.. one side always keeps more cutting surface in contact with tissue.

either way all thems some  seriously nasty wounds bro...... I see why ya like em!


----------



## ChrisSpikes

Tell ya what I'm gonna do.  If I get to do some hunting this year, I'm gonna shoot a few with Treesharks w/bleeder blades.  We'll see how that works.


----------



## robert carter

I`m gonna kill a some God Willing with Zwickey no mercy single bevels and Magnus I heads double bevel and homemade single bevel and with a phantom or two I have...RC


----------



## fountain

lance im referring to the 1x1 heads with bleeders, not the ones that have bleeders smaller than the main blade, but still you are most likely right.  

lets get some pics with big snuffer damage and compare them to the shark damage...


----------



## robert carter

I`ve only killed a couple critters with treesharks but I`ve killed a truckload with landsharks and I can tell ya the kills I`ve made with snuffers had the very best bloodtrails....and the shortest between the two.

Snuffer     







simmons..




landshark 4 blade



zwickey delta 2 blade



Magnus I



phantom


----------



## robert carter

I don`t do a lot of bloodtrailing deer. Hit them through both lungs and cup your hand to your ear and listen...you`ll here them go down 90% of the time. Run the compass bearing and you got`m. Thanks Mr. Womack.RC


----------



## ChrisSpikes

Here's the only one I've got with a big Snuffer.  Can't tell much about it.


----------



## LanceColeman

Carter,

Ya have two things I wanna point out there.... ONE: you are correct. Normally when the arrow goies where I want it to I hear the crash *IF NOT* actually see the crash.

And TWO; Dang son you've owned sold and traded off some fine lookin bows!


----------



## ChrisSpikes

He's killed critters with more different bows than anybody I've ever heard of.


----------



## LanceColeman

ChrisSpikes said:


> He's killed critters with more different bows than anybody I've ever heard of.



yea!! Thats the thing!! I know a TON of guys that change bows on a monthly basis or live more to swap sell and trade bows than even hunt. I mean dadgum look at ol Coop. he switches bows weekly........ he switches bows so much he went and bought a bow company!!

But not Carter..noooo... Carter swaps or buys a bow. goes and kills something with it, then swaps it for another one so he can kill something with a defferent bow!

Carter you still got that Robertson?? if so ya got blood on it yet?


----------



## Slasher

*I am telling you my 2 cents worth...*

I think it is how based on two factors...

     1.) How wound up the deer is at the shot...

     2.) How well that head cuts and what it cuts...

_The point is if they know they been poked.... A chisel type head=h-bomb, a dull anything= h-bomb, most 3 blades = h-bomb, a scalpel sharp 2 or 4 blade that hits a shoulder or major bone= h-bomb.... a scalpel sharp 2-4blade that just felt like it was stung by a yellow jacket they do get out of the way yet no h-bomb effect..._

I can see and agree with RC that a snuffer in the pump station causes more trauma and thus shorter trails, sometimes...

It is though 10-30% that throw the data towards the effectiveness of the scary sharp 2 blade...




     I have had some deer not even know they were hit and watch them fall while taking another bite of acorns... Some that were hit well go H-Bomb heading for the next county...

Now that I am shooting my heavier bow well, I need to look into those centaur heads and shorten my blood trailing even farther... If I can get em sharp!!!


----------



## robert carter

Hillbilly, The recurve in the last pic I still got. I made it.The purty longbow with stained zebra TJ has and the top one the pronghorn I need to be hit in the nose for trading. Sweetest shooting osage bow I`ve owned.

  I traded the Robertson. It was to purty to get mud on. I may have a Robertson longbow on the way though. Its called a Tribalstyk. I`m wanting a BigJim bow something fierce and a Mohawk and Martys to busy piddling, Id like one of his slight r/d models as well.RC


----------



## LanceColeman

I aint no longbow Guy but I have to agrea widja on Big Jims bows and Marty's cumberland and sapelo........ they sumpin about them bows that make me wanna own one.

I believe if I ever get back to working steady though I'm gonna try me one of them killzone customs. mainly cuz I know I aint no longbow guy.


----------



## Barry Duggan

Speaking of killzone customs, only know of two in existence. Can they be ordered/purchased? Haven't heard anything about their availability. Do you have to pass some kinda proficiency test before you can get your hands on one?


----------



## robert carter

You just need a big freezer.RC


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Well  a few weeks back I had to go to Plains, Ga. to sprays some cotton plants for work and trickled on down to Albany, Ga. to find Big Jim's place. There will be a Buffalo and a half heading North in the future. Mike


----------



## Jake Allen

dm/wolfskin said:


> Well  a few weeks back I had to go to Plains, Ga. to sprays some cotton plants for work and trickled on down to Albany, Ga. to find Big Jim's place. There will be a Buffalo and a half heading North in the future. Mike



Congratulations Mike!


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Well I guess I'll put  a few cents in but I get all my information on on shooting, arrows , broadheads and bows form you guys. I think I bought some Snuffers because of Lance on the Bowsite (Dawg) Never did kill and critters with them. Shot a few pigs but too high and they got to keep the broadhead or someone latter got after they killed them. Started shooting Magnus ll. Killed a few deer and pigs with it. No great blood trails and most went 100 yards. Woodman were next and had some good blood trails and some not. Got to learn to stay off the shoulders of deer and pigs. Started using Grizzlies in 190gr and 160 gr. These have been my best so far in good blood trails and short recovery but not all. I tend to shoot more for a slight angle forward and thus into the opposite shoulder. The H-Bomb shot.
This first picture doe only ran 10 yards and stood for a few minutes before falling over. She acted like nothing was wrong. I just knew I saw the arrow go through her.
This next doe went 20 yards and stood there a few and then walked a few yards and fell over. Both with grizzlies. Mike


----------



## dm/wolfskin

This little buck H-bomb for 200 yards or more . Shot him with a Woodsman. I think my angle was a little too steep. I feel lucky I found him.


----------



## dm/wolfskin

This buck made a 50 yard dead run with a grizzly in his left shoulder. No blood till where he fell. Nothing like what Chris uses. Mike


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Now this is the best blood trail I've had with a grizzly and on a pig.  Maybe a 20 yard recovery. Mike


----------



## dm/wolfskin

This a Grizzly coyote that went 30 yards. At first she went 10 yards and looked back to see what happen. I was trying to get another arrow out of my quiver but she trotted off but not far. Mike


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Here's the reason to stay off the shoulder not that I meant to shoot her right there. A Woodsman at 10 yards. The day after I shot this pig but couldn't find nothing, I went back the next morning looking and found my arrow a few yards from where I shot the pig and knew right away not much penetration. Arrow broke off at the broadhead. Anyway I'm sneaking along the river bank and spot this pig lying up against a log. I get within 15 yards and launch a grizzly into her and she busted out there for 50 yards and I heard the death squeal.  At this time I don't know this is the same pig from yesterday until I flip her over to quarter that side and my finger goes through a hole in the hide on the shoulder. Dang if there isn't a broadhead in the left shoulder.


----------



## dm/wolfskin

I would like to try some Tree Sharks. Maybe I'll find a couple arrows sticking in the ground at Horse Creek this year.  Mike


----------



## BGBH

Mike,that's a dandy buck you got there...

I've learned alot by reading this thread...yall keep it coming for the ones of us still learning....


----------



## robert carter

I kinda like Mikes set up. Specially since I`m down to 50 pounds or less. I put an ad on TG looking for no mercy heads and a fella sent me 5 then another fella is sending me 8....free... i hope to try them out soon. On deer I think the no shoulder rib shot  and stand a few seconds before falling is because they don`t know they been hit. I like it. And penetration has never been an issue to me but now with less pounds I don`t want it to be.RC


----------



## LanceColeman

yea... when they run out there and look around as if "what was that??" ya head was razor sharp and you aint hit anything more than maybe slicing through a rib...... that is a truly good thing cuz those don't go very far at all.

Mike how many pounds per grain arrow and how much draw wieght do you shoot??

And do you put the arrow back in the hole for those pics or are they left in the critter from when ya shot em?


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Lance, I shoot a 51# Shrew and I draw probally around 27 1/2 inches. Most of my arrows hit the scales at 540 grains or more. No I didn't put the arrow back in those pictures. Mike


----------



## fountain

carter, in the pic the hog with the zebrawood longow laid crost it; that is the best looking/feeling longbow ever made..wish i could have another one.

with the wide head crave this year, what yall think it will take to push them proficiently evey time..weight, heavy arrow....will a 50 lb longbow with a 540 gr arrow do it?


----------



## LanceColeman

dm/wolfskin said:


> Lance, I shoot a 51# Shrew and I draw probally around 27 1/2 inches. Most of my arrows hit the scales at 540 grains or more. No I didn't put the arrow back in those pictures. Mike



HOW did yer arras stay in one piece!?!?! maaaaan. everytime I smack an offside leg and my arrow stays in the critter?? they tear that arrow all to pieces rackin it against trees or flippin and floppin all over it!! 

I gotta get tougher arras!


----------



## Barry Duggan

TJ, wasn't that one of RC's "kicked to the curb" longbows you shot at the state shoot?


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Most of the time the arrow doesn't make it. That pig was in a wheat clover field and never made out of the field. Wheat stalks not too tough on arrows. The little buck I guess avoid the thick stuff. The big buck the arrow snapped off at the insert and the same with the woodsman pig.  Most of my arrows are heritage 150 and vapor 400 from Bigjim. I still have a few old vapor 300 which they  don't make anymore. Mike


----------



## ChrisSpikes

fountain said:


> that is the best looking/feeling longbow ever made..wish i could have another one.


You can.



fountain said:


> with the wide head crave this year, what yall think it will take to push them proficiently evey time..weight, heavy arrow....will a 50 lb longbow with a 540 gr arrow do it?


If you hit nothing but ribs, you won't have any problem with 2 blade Treesharks.  Big Snuffers might be borderline.


----------



## Slasher

Nice pics Mike, Thanks fer sharing!!!


----------



## robert carter

Richard may be building bows again TJ,. He built one for a fellow in Hazlehurst a few weeks ago. I know where a 62" one is at now for 250.RC


----------



## robert carter

Of course there will be a 20 dollar finders fee.RC


----------



## KenSel

A lot of very good info on this thread!  I'm currently shooting the 250gr. VPA's 1 1/4" cut and the Magnus I 4-blades but I've been seriously looking at the Simmons Tree Sharks.  After seeing Chris's posts on here I'm gonna get me some to try as soon as I get the money.  I think they'll work well for deer out of my 51# & 53# Big Jim bows.


----------



## stick-n-string

markland said:


> Your right Lance, I just cannot resist the urge to fling an arrow at a squirrel as well, especially later in the morning, so I got a bunch of those arrows stuck all around me as well, but it is fun!
> Hey where's all the Phantom love at???  I don't think you can go wrong with the flight, performance and damage those Phantoms with bleeder blades do on animals, they make a nasty hole!


Mark send me some and I will try them out, sense you get all you want for free! My buddy shot a hog with 1 that wasn't all that sharp and got a pass through and the hog only went bout 50 yards.


----------



## SELFBOW

I was lookin at them phantoms in bass pro the other day. I could sure use a few I mean since I'm advertising them and all


----------



## fountain

robert carter said:


> Richard may be building bows again TJ,. He built one for a fellow in Hazlehurst a few weeks ago. I know where a 62" one is at now for 250.RC



ooooooo, now yall tell me after i done got all my other bows in.  where is the 62" bow at?...i may need to scope it out and see if it is clicker compatible.

i need to get rid of everything i got and go back to shooting that ol bow.  it draws 47/48 at 28 i think but is super smooth and feels great.

set up correct, i am sure i could give a few "h bombs" with it


----------



## robert carter

62" bow is in Hazlehurst. Its already been Bookhart Trained so I know its a killer.Last time I was around there he almost gave it to me.....RC


----------



## fountain

well go back and see if the offer still stands..i will pay the finders fee and your gas to get there...deal?

how long is mine?


----------



## markland

Waa....Waaa!!  You know where there at!


----------



## dm/wolfskin

Let see what ya'll think of this shot on a doe from last year. She came in from in front of me and was 10 yards away before I even saw her. She was walking fast. I didn't get a shot until she was to my right 12 yards away standing still. My arrow went in mid rib and out under left front leg. Part of my arrow and grizzly broadhead laid right near were she was standing. She only went 30 yards and stood there for 20 minutes. Her head drooping at times. I could see my red nock on her right side. She walk off after standing there for a while. I waited 3 hours before picking up the trail. I'm thinking dead deer but no. She was down in the creek bed and I jump her. I back out and came back the next morning to look for her. I looked high and low but could not fine her. I hunted the next morning in the same place and didn't see a thing. As I was getting ready to get down at 10am I saw 3 buzzards and one was low in the direction were a branch ran into the main creek. So I went over there to check it out. She was right there were the branch went under  a road into the main creek. I walked within 10 yards of her the day before. What I don't understand why she didn't fall over after she went the first 30 yards and stood there for 20 minutes. Mike


----------



## Barry Duggan

It happens...don't know why...sometimes it just does.
Reckon you might have one lunged her?


----------



## ChrisSpikes

That's my guess Mike.  Liver and one lung.


----------



## dm/wolfskin

If I had one of your broadheads Chris, it would have been over in a few seconds. Gut, liver, puncture diaphragm, and a lung, you're thought she would be dead after 3 hours. They are tough animals. Mike


----------



## stick-n-string

Bump for a good read


----------



## PassingThrough

I have to agree with stick-n-string on this one. Great thread and read. Might even want to sticky this one. I learned a lot from this tread. 

RC- I would love to see some of those homemade heads you mentioned earlier.

What would be enough arrow weight and draw weight at 28" for a treeshark or large broadhead?


----------



## stick-n-string

This has to be my favorite thread


----------



## Dennis

I agree


----------



## JBranch

About time to resurrect this one for a good read.


----------



## stick-n-string

This should be a sticky!!


----------



## stubshaft

stick-n-string said:


> This should be a sticky!!



+1 on that!


----------



## BowHunter89

I thoroughly enjoyed it very good read.


----------

