# Does God punish whole nations or Churches?



## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

I always thought we would be punished or rewarded because of our own actions as individuals. How does this coincide with God punishing a nation? If the United States becomes a Godless nation will God protect the individual Christians? What about whole Churches or whole families?
I know there are Bible stories where God did this.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 10, 2012)

God obviously punishes entire nations:


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## Huntinfool (Aug 10, 2012)




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## formula1 (Aug 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> God obviously punishes entire nations:
> 
> View attachment 681506



I sure hope we don't continue being punished!


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

The punishment will continue regardless who wins......


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 10, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> God obviously punishes entire nations:
> 
> View attachment 681506



Not exactly where I was heading but i'll have to agree. We'd better get busy campaining & witnessing!


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## BT Charlie (Aug 10, 2012)

Punishment will continue until morale improves.


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## JB0704 (Aug 10, 2012)

BT Charlie said:


> Punishment will continue until morale improves.



....or voting habits.


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## leemckinney (Aug 10, 2012)

We are not included in the final battle so it would seem that we cease to exist or have fallen to the point of being on the sideline so it would seem that we are punished as a nation.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2012)

God is in the saving business, not the destroying business, and even his punishment reaps Love.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2012)

leemckinney said:


> We are not included in the final battle so it would seem that we cease to exist or have fallen to the point of being on the sideline so it would seem that we are punished as a nation.



Are you referring to the United States when you say the final battle?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 11, 2012)

formula1 said:


> I sure hope we don't continue being punished!



What are you talking about?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 11, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> God obviously punishes entire nations:
> 
> View attachment 681506



Yea...we really miss this great geni from the days of milk and honey


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## StriperAddict (Aug 11, 2012)

hobbs27 said:


> God is in the saving business, not the destroying business, and even his punishment reaps Love.


Thank you for breathing life to this subject.

A doomed nation had themselves one faithful witness to the hope of the mercy of God...
*Hebrews 11:31*
By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the *spies* with peace.

May we go and do likewise, regardless if our "house" crumbles around us.
Our God will hold up and bless His kids with peace.


Isaiah speaks of joy here, but is it for those future days after the Lord comes? Or maybe even today, a faithful band might still agree, and sing,
 in spite of the days to come ...

*Isaiah 55:12*
For ye shall go *out* *with* *joy*, and be led forth *with*  peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into  singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 11, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Yea...we really miss this great geni from the days of milk and honey



When Askroft was your avatar...
I was filled with fear and trembling with each post!  

J/K ... but I miss him, indeed.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 11, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Thank you for breathing life to this subject.
> 
> A doomed nation had themselves one faithful witness to the hope of the mercy of God...
> *Hebrews 11:31*
> ...


 Isaiah 61:10
"I exult for joy in Yahweh, 
my soul rejoices in my God,
for he has clothed me in the garments of salvation,
he has wrapped me in the cloak of integrity,
Like a bridgroom wearing his weath,
like a bride adorned in her jewels."


Joel2:28
And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions.



 1Corinthians 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 11, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> When Askroft was your avatar...
> I was filled with fear and trembling with each post!
> 
> J/K ... but I miss him, indeed.




The Fairchild Republic

Dear old Ashcroft, for the Good Book,
 Thought his land's justice was sure to be a hit.
 But for this  simple man from Denmark, Oragon
He was esteemed a twit.

Dear old Ashcroft rode the gattlin
On the A-10 tunderbolt and made it sing.
There was no sweeter gremlin, no cat could pur
Like that Warthog on the wing.

Dear old Ashcroft though his soul was saved
Met the Judge supreme of Denmark
The King of The Haige.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 11, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Dear old Ascroft, for the Good Book,
> Thought his land's justice was sure to be a hit.
> But for this  simple man from Denmark
> He was esteemed a twit.



I be a Denmarkian also (my Dad's Dad came over and went thru Ellis Island)...  I have him in good regards


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## leemckinney (Aug 11, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you referring to the United States when you say the final battle?



Yes


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## gordon 2 (Aug 11, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> I be a Denmarkian also (my Dad's Dad came over and went thru Ellis Island)...  I have him in good regards



Dane.

Grandfather.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 11, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> Yea...we really miss this great geni from the days of milk and honey



Well, I certainly miss him.  He's so superior to Eric Holder, it's not even funny.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2012)

leemckinney said:


> We are not included in the final battle so it would seem that we cease to exist or have fallen to the point of being on the sideline so it would seem that we are punished as a nation.



No matter how hard we try to be a great Christian our fate   as a nation is pre-doomed. At least our fate as individuals isn't pre-doomed.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2012)

The battle has been won.All thats left for us to do is choose sides.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 11, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> ....or voting habits.



Votes show the condition of the heart. When you have a greedy, selfish, immoral electorate, they tend to vote for politicians who promise them what they want... more stuff for them regardless of the results.

Yep, heart condition.

Pappy


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## gordon 2 (Aug 12, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> No matter how hard we try to be a great Christian our fate   as a nation is pre-doomed. At least our fate as individuals isn't pre-doomed.




????????


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2012)

gordon 2 said:


> ????????



That was a "tongue in cheek" response to how can we be a Christian nation if we are predestined to fail. In relation to some of the predestine threads where we have no control over our actions or salvation.


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## fish hawk (Aug 12, 2012)

For some reason when i read the title to this thread 2 Chronicles 7:14  came to mind....... If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> For some reason when i read the title to this thread 2 Chronicles 7:14  came to mind....... If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.



I like that verse. Glad you shared it.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 13, 2012)

This tread reminds me of Job...and we are Job's friends!!!!!!!!!!!! The Job narrative is shorter than this tread right? 

The way that it is given to me to understand Job, God did not punish Job but rather Job's excessive sufferings were  for his own doing. The pride which Job and his friends took for Job being super rightious was Job's achille's heal--we read that he agonized over God's injustice and not from the discomfort due to his boils for example...!

So does God punish nations? I understand that the prophets point out that nations punish themselves--- by default when they don't practice justice. When nations and individuals do not practice justice they get bad Karma, so much so that they have asked, with unfortunate sincerity, " Why me Lord, what have I ever done? to deserve even one of your curses." . And great bluesy poem get writ such as " Buy Grand Central Sation I sat down and wept."


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## gemcgrew (Aug 16, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I always thought we would be punished or rewarded because of our own actions as individuals. How does this coincide with God punishing a nation? If the United States becomes a Godless nation will God protect the individual Christians? What about whole Churches or whole families?
> I know there are Bible stories where God did this.



We are a Godless nation and deserve nothing less than to be destroyed. Spend some time in the Bible studying patterns of providence and how God deals with nations and individuals. 

Some seem to think that people are basically good and decent individuals that don't deserve horrific suffering and death. Everyone has sinned against God and deserves death and destruction. Why are we shocked when God pours out his wrath on individuals and nations? It is to be expected. Folks just don't want to believe the truth about God and themselves.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 16, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> We are a Godless nation and deserve nothing less than to be destroyed. Spend some time in the Bible studying patterns of providence and how God deals with nations and individuals.
> 
> Some seem to think that people are basically good and decent individuals that don't deserve horrific suffering and death. Everyone has sinned against God and deserves death and destruction. Why are we shocked when God pours out his wrath on individuals and nations? It is to be expected. Folks just don't want to believe the truth about God and themselves.



On the Political Forum they say we are a Christian nation.
Want some of us be protected like Lot and his family?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 16, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> On the Political Forum they say we are a Christian nation.


That is because everybody is a "Christian" today. It is foolishness.



Artfuldodger said:


> Want some of us be protected like Lot and his family?


Protected from what? God and judgement? Do you not think Lot and his family suffered?


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## StriperAddict (Aug 17, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> Protected from what? God and judgement? Do you not think Lot and his family suffered?


 
Not on the order of what happened in Sodom...
2 Peter 2:6-9

Point?


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## gemcgrew (Aug 17, 2012)

StriperAddict said:


> Not on the order of what happened in Sodom...
> 2 Peter 2:6-9
> 
> Point?



My point is that Lot was rescued more than once from Sodom. The second time was by force. He was content to raise a family in such a place. It cost him his family. His two daughters brought with them the values of Sodom, which led to incest. Apparently Lot was the only righteous person to be found in the city. He suffered nonetheless.


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## gtparts (Aug 17, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> For some reason when i read the title to this thread 2 Chronicles 7:14  came to mind....... If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then will I hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land.



  And I was reminded of Hosea, Jeremiah, and Ezekiel....... prophesy regarding death and doom at the hands of their enemies, but with a path of escape..... sadly ignored and sadly suffered. 

God will always preserve His remnant from every nation. True discipline is the hard side of love, not the venting of anger and the wielding of wrathful vengeance. With God, there is never collateral damage without mercy and healing.... and redemption.


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## barryl (Aug 17, 2012)

*Christian?*



Artfuldodger said:


> On the Political Forum they say we are a Christian nation.
> Want some of us be protected like Lot and his family?


Christian Nation? Last year while traveling from Va. to Ga., I was listening to a Radio station and was shocked by what I heard. Most people in America today claim they are { over 60% } Christian, not because they are, but because thay are a citizen of the U.S. Moral of the story; Saying it doesn't make it so!! Not that I am any Judge!


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 17, 2012)

We've talked about nations, what about churches. In Revelation weren't there seven Churches that were mentioned that barely made it? I think that God would look out for the Churches doing his mission more than the one who aren't. I would not even attempt to determine which is which but will leave that up to God.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 18, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> We've talked about nations, what about churches.



There are local churches that lack a single believer. There are perhaps entire denominations that lack a single believer. Believers are not as commonplace as some would imagine.


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## Slewfoot (Aug 18, 2012)

*This*



gemcgrew said:


> We are a Godless nation and deserve nothing less than to be destroyed. Spend some time in the Bible studying patterns of providence and how God deals with nations and individuals.
> 
> Some seem to think that people are basically good and decent individuals that don't deserve horrific suffering and death. Everyone has sinned against God and deserves death and destruction. Why are we shocked when God pours out his wrath on individuals and nations? It is to be expected. Folks just don't want to believe the truth about God and themselves.



The Lord will certainly hold our nation accountable at some point for the actions of the whole.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 19, 2012)

Slewfoot said:


> The Lord will certainly hold our nation accountable at some point for the actions of the whole.



The fog of wars, of wars, of wars are self correcting. They spin themselves into creating their citizens,  their societies and their nations into half human forms and then force march them to wonder as if something is missing,  as if something they once owned is gone and must be persued. Something and everything is owed them all, until the blessings that was the nation itself is absent--- is vanished.

While peace has it's clouds--it does not leave entire generations in fogs.

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## StriperAddict (Aug 19, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> My point is that Lot was rescued more than once from Sodom. The second time was by force. He was content to raise a family in such a place. It cost him his family. His two daughters brought with them the values of Sodom, which led to incest. Apparently Lot was the only righteous person to be found in the city. He suffered nonetheless.


Indeed. He was short-sighted in his choice for his habitation before coming to Sodom, and in spite of his poor town choice God saw his heart and did not judge him with the wicked.  But the poor choice cost him in his family, and as you pointed out, that had future ramifications.  

There's a lot to be learned in the story (no pun intended) 



gemcgrew said:


> There are local churches that lack a single believer. There are perhaps entire denominations that lack a single believer. Believers are not as commonplace as some would imagine.


Agreed. I think some churches teach a social gospel so to speak (the one I grew up with did).  
When values, not virtue, is spoken as law (which will never impart Christ nor His righteousness) it will always shame & condemn. 
In my churchanity upbringing I walked a long time not "measuring up" to the rules... and although I was introduced to the One who did in '79, it was a long time before I realized I was dead to the law by the Spirit of Christ. (For another thread, no doubt )


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## irishredneck (Aug 24, 2012)

If God were to punish individuals or nations the world would be destroyed in an instant, there are none of us that deserve the next breath in our lungs. 
Jesus said many times 'I, nor my father in heaven condemn you' 

Love & Grace are whats been shown to us and these are the times we live in until Jesus comes back and then the judgement of God will come to those who are living in sin. Thats what the Bible says. 
Yes I know the wages of sin is death, but that is a result of sin, not a punishment. BUT the gift of God is eternal life! 

Not only did Jesus shed His blood but from his side water flowed which is symbolic all through scripture for cleansing. If the blood is eternally forgiving our sins, the water is eternally cleansing us from all unrighteousness. So if we are righteous before God, we are spotless and blameless, our sin is as far as the east is from the west so God does NOT condemn us.

Any thoughts of condemnation are thoughts of doubt, do you doubt that you are forgiven? Do you doubt that you are a child of Christ? Do you think that by doing something wrong you are chastised and no longer a beloved of God? Thats what the devil wants you to think, he is the portrayer of doubt. 

God said in Hebrews 'I remember your sins no more!' the 'no more' is the strongest no in Greek, a double negetive! Does God lower his standards? No! He did remember our sins, just over 2000 years ago at the cross. Every past, present and future sin was cast upon Jesus so we could be clean before God. So do not be sin-conscious, when you do the devil casts those doubts and you think you should be judged for something you've done wrong. God wants you to focus on the finished work at the cross and the fact that He has already dealt with sin through his judgement on Jesus.

You must come to the place where you believe and know your sins are forgiven and that no sin you could ever do will disqualify you from Gods blessings because you are forgiven and saved eternally. Hebrews 10 says by His one offering, you are perfected forever! God says, I am merciful, your sins and lawless deeds I remember no more!

*God would be unjust if He punished the same sin twice, in Jesus' body then in yours.* 1 Thessalonians says God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain Salvation through our Lord, Jesus Christ. Its clear that God is not on a sin hunt but on a righteousness hunt and through the blood of Jesus, we are righteously qualified.


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