# Camel Bones



## 660griz (Feb 6, 2014)

Just maybe, the Bible is wrong. 

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/02/06/camel-bones-suggest-error-in-bible/?intcmp=features


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## stringmusic (Feb 6, 2014)




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## Dr. Strangelove (Feb 6, 2014)

Someone will be right along to say that the bible isn't literal or that you simply have to have "faith".


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

660griz said:


> Just maybe, the Bible is wrong.



That must be the case because, as we all know, scientists are never wrong.


_Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (July 1, 1818 - August 13, 1865) was the Hungarian physician who demonstrated that puerperal fever (also known as "childbed fever") was contagious and that its incidence could be drastically reduced by enforcing appropriate hand-washing behavior by medical care-givers....

He lectured publicly about his results in 1850, however, the reception by the medical community was cold, if not hostile. His observations went against the current scientific opinion of the time, which blamed diseases on an imbalance of the basical "humours" in the body. It was also argued that even if his findings were correct, washing one's hands each time before treating a pregnant woman, as Semmelweis advised, would be too much work. Nor were doctors eager to admit that they had caused so many deaths.... _


http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blantisceptics.htm


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## gordon 2 (Feb 6, 2014)

They are hunting in the wrong place for 3000 yr old domesticated camel bones, maybe?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> That must be the case because, as we all know, scientists are never wrong.
> 
> 
> _Ignaz Philipp Semmelweis (July 1, 1818 - August 13, 1865) was the Hungarian physician who demonstrated that puerperal fever (also known as "childbed fever") was contagious and that its incidence could be drastically reduced by enforcing appropriate hand-washing behavior by medical care-givers....
> ...



That IS the great thing about Science, it is open to change and does not stick to the same error filled, one tract thinking for 3000 years.
You seem to have have cut the article short leaving out the part where it took less than 20 years for science and doctors to admit he was right.
They have not stuck with the old ways saying "we cannot understand why these techniques do not work just have faith that those techniques will work sometimes and accept the times they do not work as God's will"


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## stringmusic (Feb 6, 2014)

So let me get this straight, the Bible mentions camels as being "pack animals", these two archaeologists find camel bones in the ground that are somehow the oldest bones in the entire Arabian peninsula but the bones are not old enough to line up with the stories of the bible.

How do we know those are the oldest camel bones in the Arabian peninsula?

In what context does the bible mention that camels were pack animals, and where were they talking about the camels existing at the time?

I also found this interesting.


> The few camel bones found in earlier archaeological layers probably belonged to wild camels


Or they probably belonged to domesticated camels?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

660griz said:


> Just maybe, the Bible is wrong.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/science/2014/02/06/camel-bones-suggest-error-in-bible/?intcmp=features



The truth and accuracy of the Bible is limited to it's authors knowledge.
If someone wants to include God in that mix so be it.


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## stringmusic (Feb 6, 2014)

We talking about the Bactrian camel or the Arabian camel?


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> That IS the great thing about Science, it is open to change and does not stick to the same error filled, one tract thinking for 3000 years.



That's correct.  It often moves from one error to a completely different error.  It wasn't too long before the hand-washing mistake that doctors were applying leeches to people and opening veins so as to "bleed out" the illness.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> We talking about the Bactrian camel or the Arabian camel?




I thought we were talking about swallows.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> That's correct.  It often moves from one error to a completely different error.  It wasn't too long before the hand-washing mistake that doctors were applying leeches to people and opening veins so as to "bleed out" the illness.



(Leeches are still used today!)
But it does not change the fact that when something in science or medicine is found out to be false, erred or deadly that they do not stick to it out of faith. They admit the wrong, fix it and move on to improve it further.
Unless of course you want to get into the accuracy of medicine practices in the Bible...?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> We talking about the Bactrian camel or the Arabian camel?



Moses COULD have gotten Camels from Egypt...but it still comes down to when.

 Bactrian (Camelus bactrianus) (two humps)
  Dromedary (Camelus dromedarius) (one hump)


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> (Leeches are still used today!)



But not to "bleed out" patients.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Unless of course you want to get into the accuracy of medicine practices in the Bible...?



The OT dietary laws protected the Israelites from many ailments.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> But not to "bleed out" patients.



Right.
Who still bleeds out patients today?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> The OT dietary laws protected the Israelites from many ailments.



By those standards the Old medical practices did the same...
I don't think the ones that work are the ones anyone questions.


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 6, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Or they probably belonged to domesticated camels?



That just couldn't be.  All camel bones are stamped wild or domesticated, so the scientist can tell them apart.  Didn't you know this?


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## NE GA Pappy (Feb 6, 2014)

Oh, and by the way, the mosaic laws commanded hand washing.

I believe it was a year or two before the 1870's


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## TTom (Feb 6, 2014)

Domesticated animals almost always show some changing of form from whatever use they are put to. Horses get a change in the shape of their back from saddles, compared to wild horses who have never been saddled. Not that this confirms or disproves the assertion that these specific camels were wild or domestic.

We have wild and domesticated horses in the US at the same time, some archeologist may find the wild ones first and deduce that we had no domesticated horses until they find something else. 

I have no doubt that camels had been domesticated by the time of Moses.


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## stringmusic (Feb 6, 2014)

NE GA Pappy said:


> That just couldn't be.  All camel bones are stamped wild or domesticated, so the scientist can tell them apart.  Didn't you know this?



Lol, I forgot I had just learned that yesterday.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Right.
> Who still bleeds out patients today?



Nobody.  The point is that it was state-of-the-art medicine at one time.




bullethead said:


> By those standards the Old medical practices did the same...



And what practices would those be?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Nobody.  The point is that it was state-of-the-art medicine at one time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All the ones that worked.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> All the ones that worked.



Name 'em.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

I wonder if this is standard procedure at John's Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic?

Cleansing ritual from leprosy:

    Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly away. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally find another pair of birds. Kill one and dip the live bird in the dead bird’s blood. Wipe some blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle the house with blood 7 times.
    – Leviticus 14:2-52


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## WaltL1 (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> That's correct.  It often moves from one error to a completely different error.  It wasn't too long before the hand-washing mistake that doctors were applying leeches to people and opening veins so as to "bleed out" the illness.


So your wife or child is very ill. Where are you going to take them? Certainly not to those fools at the hospital right? Come on man, you seem to be a smart guy, think about your argument here. Its just silly.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> So your wife or child is very ill. Where are you going to take them?



I would take Jesus' advice and take them to the ER.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Name 'em.



Okay but just a few....

Acupuncture

Cauterization

Maggot Therapy

Caesarean Sections

Hydro Therapy


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I wonder if this is standard procedure at John's Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic?
> 
> Cleansing ritual from leprosy:
> 
> ...



When did modern medicine cure leprosy?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I would take Jesus' advice and take them to the ER.



Unless Jesus is your gardener I'd like to use my CPF card and ask you to name that verse.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> When did modern medicine cure leprosy?



Right after Antibiotics were developed.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> When did modern medicine cure leprosy?



I'll let you look at my homework just this once:

What Can Cure Leprosy?
Prior to the discovery of antibiotics, there was nothing that could cure leprosy. Lepers were segregated for extended periods of time and developed severe disabilities and disfigurements. Today, medicines are used to cure leprosy. Therefore, the challenge now is to identify people with leprosy early so that treatment for leprosy can begin. Early treatment can reduce the chances of any long-term disabilities that develop prior to successful treatment.

Medicines Used to Cure Leprosy
In order to cure leprosy, doctors generally prescribe antibiotics that kill Mycobacterium leprae (the bacteria that cause leprosy). Because Mycobacterium leprae can be resistant to certain antibiotics, a combination of antibiotics is often used. The three most commonly used antibiotics are:


    Rifampin
    Dapsone
    Clofazimine.


Treatment of leprosy differs depending on the form of the disease. Treatment generally continues for one year for tuberculoid leprosy and two years for lepromatous leprosy. With treatment, less than 0.1 percent of people fail to be cured of leprosy.


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## drippin' rock (Feb 6, 2014)

TTom said:


> Domesticated animals almost always show some changing of form from whatever use they are put to. Horses get a change in the shape of their back from saddles, compared to wild horses who have never been saddled. Not that this confirms or disproves the assertion that these specific camels were wild or domestic.
> 
> We have wild and domesticated horses in the US at the same time, some archeologist may find the wild ones first and deduce that we had no domesticated horses until they find something else.
> 
> I have no doubt that camels had been domesticated by the time of Moses.



I agree. 

What I applaud is the continuous effort to advance knowledge.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Right after Antibiotics were developed.



Exactly.  So for thousands of years, there was no _medicinal_ cure for leprosy.  As a Christian, though, I believe God can heal when man cannot.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Unless Jesus is your gardener I'd like to use my CPF card and ask you to name that verse.



Mark 2:17

I am taking a little liberty with the verse, but Jesus uses the concept of the physician treating the sick to illustrate a point.


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## WaltL1 (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I would take Jesus' advice and take them to the ER.


Pretty good advice.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Mark 2:17
> 
> I am taking a little liberty with the verse, but Jesus uses the concept of the physician treating the sick to illustrate a point.



A LITTLE liberty?


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Mark 2:17
> 
> I am taking a little liberty with the verse, but Jesus uses the concept of the physician treating the sick to illustrate a point.



There are more references to Jesus healing than him "suggesting" going to a physician.
I know you would use the ER over prayer for the serious stuff. Verses be darned.


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## bullethead (Feb 6, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Exactly.  So for thousands of years, there was no _medicinal_ cure for leprosy.  As a Christian, though, I believe God can heal when man cannot.



There is no question about that.
God is in good company.

List of health deities
African mythology

    Agwu, Igbo god of health and divination
    !Xu, sky god of the Bushmen of southern Africa who is invoked in illness

Aztec mythology

    Ixtlilton, god of medicine.
    Patecatl, god of Pulque and healing.

Celtic mythology

    Airmed, Irish goddess associated with healing and resurrection.
    Alaunus, Gaulish god of the sun, healing and prophecy associated with Greek god Helios-Apollo
    Atepomarus, Gaulish healing god associated with the Greek god Apollo
    Borvo, Celto-Lusitanian healing god associated with bubbling spring water
    Brigid, Irish goddess associated with healing
    Dian Cecht, Irish god of healing
    Glanis, Gaulish god associated with a healing spring at the town of Glanum
    Grannus, Gaulish god associated with spas, healing thermal and mineral springs, and the sun
    Hooded Spirits, hooded deities associated with health and fertility
    Ianuaria, goddess associated with healing
    Iovantucarus, Gaulish healer-god and protector of youth associated with Lenus Mars
    Lenus, Gaulish healing god associated with the Greek god Ares
    Maponos, god of youth, associated with the Greek god Apollo
    Mullo, Gaulish deity associated with the Greek god Ares and said to heal afflictions of the eye
    Nodens, Gallo-Roman and Roman British god associated with healing, the sea, hunting and dogs
    Sirona, Gallo-Roman and Celto-Germanic goddess associated with healing

Chinese mythology

    Elder Zhang Guo, one of the Eight Immortals, whose wine was considered to have healing properties
    Immortal Woman He, one of the Eight Immortals, whose lotus flower improves one's health, mental and physical
    Iron-Crutch Li, one of the Eight Immortals, who alleviates the suffering of the poor, sick and needy with special medicine from his gourd
    Wong Tai Sin, god with the power of healing
    Shennong, mythical emperor who spread knowledge of herbs and medicine.

Christian mythology

    Jesus Christ, healer of the blind and lepers.

Egyptian mythology

    Heka, deification of magic, through which Egyptians believed they could gain protection, healing and support
    Sekhmet, goddess of medicine
    Serket, goddess of healing stings and bites
    Ta-Bitjet, a scorpion goddess whose blood is a panacea for all poisons

Etruscan mythology

    Fufluns, god of plant life, happiness and health and growth in all things
    Menrva, goddess of war, art, wisdom and health

Greek mythology

    Aceso, goddess of the healing of wounds and the curing of illness
    Aegle, goddess of radiant good health
    Artemis, goddess of the hunt, wild animals, the wilderness, childbirth, fertility, plague and good health
    Apollo, god of music, poetry, prophecy, archery, healing, medicine and plague
    Asclepius, god of medicine and healing
    Chiron, a centaur known for his knowledge and skill in healing
    Eileithyia, goddess of childbirth
    Heracles, God of Health, Athletics and Heroic Endeavour
    Hygieia, goddess of health, cleanliness and sanitation
    Iaso, goddess of cures, remedies and modes of healing
    Paean, physician of the gods
    Panacea, goddess of healing
    Telesphorus, demi-god of convalescence, who "brought to fulfillment" recuperation from illness or injury

Hindu mythology
Lord Dhanvantari, the Hindu god of medicine and Lord of Ayurvedic medicine

    Ashvins, twin doctors of the gods and gods of Ayurvedic medicine
    Dhanvantari, physician of the gods and god of Ayurvedic medicine
    Dhatri, solar god of health and domestic tranquility
    Mariamman, goddess of disease and rain
    ****ala Devi, goddess of smallpox and disease

Hittite mythology

    Kamrusepa, goddess of healing, medicine, and magic
    Shaushka, goddess of fertility, war, and healing

Inuit mythology

    Eeyeekalduk, god of medicine and good health
    Pinga, goddess of the hunt, fertility and medicine

Japanese mythology

    Ebisu, god of fishermen, good luck, and workingmen, and the guardian of the health of small children

Maya mythology

    Ixchel, jaguar goddess of midwifery and medicine

Mesopotamian mythology

    Anahita, Indo-Iranian goddess of fertility, healing and wisdom
    Namtar, god of death and disease
    Ninazu, god of the underworld and healing
    Ningishzida, god of the underworld and patron of medicine
    Nintinugga, goddess of healing
    Ninurta, god of the South Wind and healing

Native American mythology

    Kumugwe, Nuxalk underwater god with the power to see into the future, heal the sick and injured, and bestow powers on those whom he favors

Norse mythology

    Eir, goddess associated with medical skill

Persian mythology

    Haoma, god of health

Phoenician mythology

    Eshmun, god of healing

Roman mythology

    Angitia, snake goddess associated with healing
    Bona Dea, goddess of fertility, healing, virginity, and women
    Cardea, goddess of health, thresholds and door hinges and handles
    Carna, goddess who presided over the heart and other organs
    Endovelicus, god of public health and safety
    Febris, goddess who embodied and protected people from fever and malaria
    Vejovis, god of healing
    Verminus, god who protected cattle from disease

Sami mythology

    Beiwe, goddess of the sun, spring, fertility and sanity, who restored the mental health of those driven mad by the darkness of the winter

Slavic mythology

    Żywie, goddess of health and healing

Thracian mythology

    Derzelas, god of abundance and the underworld, health and human spirit's vitality

Yoruba and Afro-American mythology

    Aja, spirit of the forest, the animals within it and herbal healers
    Babalu Aye, spirit of illness and disease
    Erinle, spirit of abundance, the healer, and patron of gay people
    Loco, patron of healers and plants
    Mami Wata, a pantheon of water spirits associated with healing and fertility
    Sopona, god of smallpox


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## WaltL1 (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> There is no question about that.
> God is in good company.
> 
> List of health deities
> ...


Well no wonder why nobody ever got sick!
Unfortunately I guess all those folks are retired from medicine these days.


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## ambush80 (Feb 6, 2014)

bullethead said:


> I wonder if this is standard procedure at John's Hopkins and the Mayo Clinic?
> 
> Cleansing ritual from leprosy:
> 
> ...




Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh haaaaaa haaa haaaa!!!!!

That's rich.  I mean, really.

My sides hurt.

Tee hee.  I'm cryin'


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## 660griz (Feb 7, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> I would take Jesus' advice and take them to the ER.



Very nice. Although, God usually punishes for going to any other source but him for healing. 

God says, “I am the Lord who heals you.”  Exodus 15:26

“I will take away sickness from among you. . .”  Exodus 23:25,26

“He forgives all my sins and heals ALL my Diseases.”  Psalm 103:3

“I will give you back your health again and heal your wounds.”  Jeremiah 30:17

“The Lord will remove from you all sickness. . .”  Deuteronomy 7:15

Asa, King of Israel sought out the physicians INSTEAD of depending on the Lord – and Asa DIED!

“And Asa, in the thirty-ninth year of his reign, was diseased in his feet (probably diabetes), until his disease was exceeding great: yet in his disease he sought NOT to the Lord, but to the physicians (human “healers”)

“And Asa died . . . and rested with his fathers (ancestors).”  2 Chronicles 16:12,13


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 7, 2014)

There are all of those verses that would indicate that.... but there are just as many more that get interpreted to say, forget what I said before, I'll heal you in my way.... creating a hospital, giving the staff the knowledge to heal you.. It's me, but it's not me....


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## 660griz (Feb 7, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> There are all of those verses that would indicate that.... but there are just as many more that get interpreted to say, forget what I said before, I'll heal you in my way.... creating a hospital, giving the staff the knowledge to heal you.. It's me, but it's not me....



True. 

However, if one truly has faith, gets a possibly terminal but treatable illness, why would they want anything other than God's will? If they live, God wanted them to. If they die, God wanted them to AND they are going to a much better place. Why would a Christian want to live longer?


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2014)

660griz said:


> Very nice. Although, God usually punishes for going to any other source but him for healing.


You're an atheist so you _would_ look at those verses to try and make the bible untrustworthy. 

What is the context in those verses? Who is God talking to in those verses?



> God says, “I am the Lord who heals you.”  Exodus 15:26
> 
> “I will take away sickness from among you. . .”  Exodus 23:25,26
> 
> ...



There is no difference in what you guys accuse Christians of all the time for in that we read the bible and trust it, where as you guys read the bible and automatically distrust it or try to disqualify it.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 7, 2014)

660griz said:


> Very nice. Although, God usually punishes for going to any other source but him for healing.
> 
> God says, “I am the Lord who heals you.”  Exodus 15:26
> 
> ...




One of the Roman emperors (Tiberius, I believe) said that after your 20th birthday or so, there’s no need for a doctor.  He was exactly right.  If you got any serious disease in those times, you were a goner.  

The same goes for biblical times.


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## TripleXBullies (Feb 7, 2014)

This is another topic completely...as if we haven't derailed as it is... but he sent his "son" to die for us and so that we would know... We don't need miracles to believe because he did it before and with Jesus. Now, 2000 years later we have to trust what makes no sense because it's thousands of years old.


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## 660griz (Feb 7, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> You're an atheist so you _would_ look at those verses to try and make the bible untrustworthy.


 I wasn't an atheist the first time I looked at those verses.



> What is the context in those verses?


I know. Out of context, not interpreting it corrrectly, etc. 


> Who is God talking to in those verses?


 I assumed YOU. Not my fault he uses pronouns. 


> There is no difference in what you guys accuse Christians of all the time for in that we read the bible and trust it, where as you guys read the bible and automatically distrust it or try to disqualify it.



Not really. You are taking it out of context.  Just showing for every example of a verse that proves someone's actions are correct, verses can be shown that prove their actions are not correct. Conclusions can be drawn. Excuses made.


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2014)

660griz said:


> I know. Out of context, not interpreting it corrrectly, etc.
> I assumed YOU. Not my fault he uses pronouns.


Yea, that silly 3rd grade language arts class stuff, we shouldn't have to use that to read the bible.


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## 660griz (Feb 7, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Yea, that silly 3rd grade language arts class stuff, we shouldn't have to use that to read the bible.




Thanks for a 3rd grade response.


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2014)

660griz said:


> Thanks for a 3rd grade response.


Sorry.

That argument gets used against Christians all the time. "Yea yea yea, I know, not using the correct context", well, context is key when reading _anything_, so it has to be taken into account.

And, verses get taken out of the correct context all the time to push an agenda and to try and show inconsistencies in the Christian worldview, then, when the word context is brought up, it's usually a sarcastic response.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 7, 2014)

stringmusic said:


> Sorry.
> 
> That argument gets used against Christians all the time. "Yea yea yea, I know, not using the correct context", well, context is key when reading _anything_, so it has to be taken into account.
> 
> And, verses get taken out of the correct context all the time to push an agenda and to try and show inconsistencies in the Christian worldview, then, when the word context is brought up, it's usually a sarcastic response.



What is the proper context for the following?



bullethead said:


> Cleansing ritual from leprosy:
> 
> Get two birds. Kill one. Dip the live bird in the blood of the dead one. Sprinkle the blood on the leper seven times, and then let the blood-soaked bird fly away. Next find a lamb and kill it. Wipe some of its blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle seven times with oil and wipe some of the oil on his right ear, thumb and big toe. Repeat. Finally find another pair of birds. Kill one and dip the live bird in the dead bird’s blood. Wipe some blood on the patient’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. Sprinkle the house with blood 7 times.
> – Leviticus 14:2-52


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## stringmusic (Feb 7, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> What is the proper context for the following?



Don't know, never looked into it. I'm at work and don't know if I'll have time today, if I get time to I'll post what I think.


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## 660griz (Feb 7, 2014)

gordon 2 said:


> They are hunting in the wrong place for 3000 yr old domesticated camel bones, maybe?



You may be right. However, if they told me to look, I would start at the birthplace of Christianity too.


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