# Big time bust



## runswithbeer (Feb 27, 2013)

http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/FWC-Recovers-Thousands-of-Stolen-Artifacts-193670681.html


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## kc65 (Feb 27, 2013)

James Tatum, isnt he an authenticator? Jackie Fuller wow....


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## bronco611 (Feb 27, 2013)

Glad to know that the law is at work keeping everyone at bay. How would you like to go to a show and see your grandmothers diamond wedding ring on display by someone who looted her grave!!! Thank you to all of the law officers involved in this bust!!! Thank God there are still people with morals left on the face of the earth which god gave us to rule over. Good job to all involved.


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## kc65 (Feb 27, 2013)

runswithbeer said:


> http://www.wctv.tv/home/headlines/FWC-Recovers-Thousands-of-Stolen-Artifacts-193670681.html



pm sent


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## runswithbeer (Feb 27, 2013)

bronco611 said:


> Glad to know that the law is at work keeping everyone at bay. How would you like to go to a show and see your grandmothers diamond wedding ring on display by someone who looted her grave!!! Thank you to all of the law officers involved in this bust!!! Thank God there are still people with morals left on the face of the earth which god gave us to rule over. Good job to all involved.



I don't think it was all concerning looting of graves.


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## jcinpc (Feb 27, 2013)

there were no grave good in this, all were supposedly found on state land or waters and selling at shows or through internet. 
alot of this bust doesnt make sense, search warrants for a few but not others. Artifacts change hands from collector to collector to dealers etc. If the state was so concerned then why cant I go to a museum and see my history on display? Why cant I get my questions answered? why do develpers get to pay their way through destruction?
I know these guys and they arent hardened criminals, 1 dude got 2 felony counts on video tape of him selling an undercover a point he bought from someone....it goes on and on they keep choving it down our throats....we are Floridians and this is OUR history ...but we arent qualified enough to handle it


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## fish hawk (Feb 28, 2013)

bronco611 said:


> Glad to know that the law is at work keeping everyone at bay. How would you like to go to a show and see your grandmothers diamond wedding ring on display by someone who looted her grave!!! Thank you to all of the law officers involved in this bust!!! Thank God there are still people with morals left on the face of the earth which god gave us to rule over. Good job to all involved.



Where in the article does it say anything about anyone looting graves?


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## Nicodemus (Feb 28, 2013)

I know several of these men personally, and consider them friends. I would have to see it with my own eyes before I would believe they would loot a grave. I just don`t believe they would do it.


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## Whiteeagle (Feb 28, 2013)

I agree with Nicodemus, I know LOTS of collectors that hunt artifacts on private lands and NEVER "dig" more than 1" to recover a find. Being "Native" American, I do NOT call this "gravr-robbing" If i see one on the ground, by nature I pick it up. It is part of MY ancestry and NO excavation of disturbing the remains of a long-lost person are disturbed! Burial sites are sacred and I am sure those that DO rob graves would be the FIRST to prosecute someone that desecrates one of their relatives graves! I do not know Jacky Fuller personally, but I know several of his relatives, and I hope for them this is NOT true! Just my opinion, and everyone has their own! Thanks, Nic!


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## StateOfBaker (Feb 28, 2013)

I've been checking out this site for years and finally decided to get an account to reply on this one.
Does this have anything to do with artifactsguide.com being down?


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## kmckinnie (Feb 28, 2013)

2 of the men live a few miles from me. Just know of them. Digging in a camp sight & digging in a burial ground is way different. I don't know of any burial grounds or what to look for.I know of a lot of camps where they lived! Heck the state of Fla is digging up some camps & burial grounds maybe in the Quincy area right now for a highway from State RD 12 to Highway 90ty!!!
I seen some indian pottery on the ground there with flint. Sounds like a camp to me. It could be 100s of thousands of dollars of artifacts there that they are just running over with heavy equipment( but thats o k) & the history of that area.... Finds in a river by diving doesn't ruin the area, or disturb history.
I think one of the main concerns of the state is the money no taxes are paid on for the cash sales,not the history. Just a little of my thoughts. I wish those fellows G/L with this.


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## diamondback (Feb 28, 2013)

They have been trying to shut them down for years .Unless they caught them in a hole or in a river with a artifact I dont think the charges will stick,but they will make them spend so much in lawyer fees they wont have anything left.

I used to snorkel some in ga and fl until it was made illegal then it just wasnt worth it .How can they prove the artifacts were not collected or traded for before it was made illegal ?

I dont believe in digging grave sites and have never known anyone that did ,but why is it ok for the state archs to do it ?Why is it ok from it to be done in the name of construction or road building?

Im all for sharing our history with everyone.So when can I go look at ALL the artifacts in the museums,not just the ones they want us to see.Most are hidden away in a back room or decorating the archs home or some of our so called elected public servants homes.


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## Nicodemus (Feb 28, 2013)

diamondback said:


> They have been trying to shut them down for years .Unless they caught them in a hole or in a river with a artifact I dont think the charges will stick,but they will make them spend so much in lawyer fees they wont have anything left.
> 
> I used to snorkel some in ga and fl until it was made illegal then it just wasnt worth it .How can they prove the artifacts were not collected or traded for before it was made illegal ?
> 
> ...





Yep. Before I would donate my personal collection to a museum, I would put each individual point on an anvil, and pound each one into dust, one at a time. I know of several instances where people loaned a collection to a museum, and the collection "disappeared".


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## Sixes (Feb 28, 2013)

I have no ideas of the details of the arrest but I'd about bet it's just typical gov't trying to show their power and overstate the value of the points and the damage to the land. Problem is, these guys will face some serious fines and lose all of their stuff from no telling how many years of collecting.

I would doubt any "graves" were robbed and it really irritates me that the gov't feels as though they own everything on and in the ground and rivers.

I don't know about the FWC, but I know how arrogant and ridiculous the COE are with their "laws" on property paid for by taxpayers and stolen from the original landowners.


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## Sixes (Feb 28, 2013)

Nicodemus said:


> Yep. Before I would donate my personal collection to a museum, I would put each individual point on an anvil, and pound each one into dust, one at a time. I know of several instances where people loaned a collection to a museum, and the collection "disappeared".



A museum will NEVER see anything that I have ever found.

Had a cousin that loaned a beautiful piece found by his father in the early 1900's to a huge museum, and it literally took the involvement of lawyers to get the piece back.


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## jcinpc (Feb 28, 2013)

StateOfBaker said:


> I've been checking out this site for years and finally decided to get an account to reply on this one.
> Does this have anything to do with artifactsguide.com being down?



not in relation to the bust but to possibly to keep any feds from access to anything..in my opinion


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## jcinpc (Feb 28, 2013)

this all boils down to the Stae showing their power, these were dealers with online sites selling artifacts either they personally found or on commision. 1 guy arrested was busted back in Aug last year no felony charges on him but they put it all in with this lot.
the law was working this for a few years and this is all they have? I am sure they could have thrown some developers in here  or a few phosphate mines that have bulldozed thousands of sites...some collections were confiscated and others not...why? double felonies on the same charge? the passion and the hobby will go on, but alot more quiet and underground, this wasnt a "blackmarket" gimmick, this wasnt a crime ring, these guys competed against each others for sales, some mistakes were made and some artifacts were obtained illegally since we lost the IFP but not to this extent of the charges...
the state is  upset- that $$ was made off of what they consider theirs....this is my state too, 5th generation + and I cant go to a museum and see how our history has progressed since paleo times, what I can see is reproductions and incomplete artifacts with a sketchy timeline of history and I have seen personally found donated collections get thrown out or sold by museums, 1 museum in Bardonton was trying to sell a 3 acre lot donated to them by an old lady....the museum was trying to sell it to a devolper...it had a HUGE documented BURIAL MOUND on it...go figure


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## runswithbeer (Feb 28, 2013)

jcinpc said:


> not in relation to the bust but to possibly to keep any feds from access to anything..in my opinion




I'm gonna say that the shutdown was too late.  The Feds have already been thru the site prior to the bust.


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## fish hawk (Mar 1, 2013)

diamondback said:


> They have been trying to shut them down for years .Unless they caught them in a hole or in a river with a artifact I dont think the charges will stick,but they will make them spend so much in lawyer fees they wont have anything left.
> 
> I used to snorkel some in ga and fl until it was made illegal then it just wasnt worth it .How can they prove the artifacts were not collected or traded for before it was made illegal ?
> 
> ...


It was a set up job!!!Artifacts changed hands and money changed hands.


runswithbeer said:


> I'm gonna say that the shutdown was too late.  The Feds have already been thru the site prior to the bust.



Yes,with the investigation going on for two years you can bet they have!!!I hope that one day the site will be back up and running though.Folks shouldn't have to be scared to show off their legal finds or purchases.They went after some big guns in an effort to scare everyone else......I'd say the state of Florida just greatly increased the value of artifacts from the state.


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## brianincc (Mar 1, 2013)

This just makes me sick. I grew up walking the shorelines and fanning holes in the river with my dad and his friends and it was something I was hoping my kids would show an appreciation for one day. Sad to see it come to this. I know for a fact that hunting artifacts kept me out of a lot of trouble when I was younger. I know a couple of these guys as well I can assure you they are good people that have fallen victim to a witch hunt.


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## Son (Mar 1, 2013)

First of all. Lets not anyone jump to conclusions about who did a good job, or if those folks are guilty.
First let's consider a few things to think about. Did somebody have an ax to burn? Remember these folks were the most vocal when collectors got kicked out of rivers.
The report given to the media complains about the destruction. If the government is so worried about destruction, why did they let it continue for two more years, if indeed it did happen. This is a non violent subject, none of these people are bad people, and in my opinion, if government noticed a problem they should have nipped it in the bud. Less people would be involved, less destruction they claim would have been, and lots of time and money could have been saved by law enforcement. Time and money that could have gone to something more important. Like illegal immigration and securing the borders. Notice how enforcement made it a point to announce it to the liberal media. Notice how they were in such haste to get up and grandstand. That's why they let this go on for two years, they wanted it big enough to boast about. Too much of this stuff goes on folks. Kinda like fast and furious, the result snowballs. 
This kind of stuff isn't common sense enforcement. It's the entrapment game so some can climb the ladder, so some can push their authority etc. Archaeology is a very competitive field. Pay attention they can't get along with one another. Some will do anything for public exposure in hopes of climbing the ladder of success, for more grant money,  to give collecting a blackeye.
On the subjects of museums. I've donated to a couple in my time. All artifacts disappeared, with i'm sorry, we don't now who got em.
I've trusted archaeologist before too, didn't take me long to catch on. Most are users, and will plagerize your knowledge, publish it and never  mention your name.  I've been there too, many years ago.
So, let nobody condem these people as we don't know all the facts.
That's my opinion.


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## chadeugene (Mar 1, 2013)

Nobody charged the government when they stole the land on which these artifacts were found.


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## fish hawk (Mar 1, 2013)

Son said:


> First of all. Lets not anyone jump to conclusions about who did a good job, or if those folks are guilty.
> First let's consider a few things to think about. Did somebody have an ax to burn? Remember these folks were the most vocal when collectors got kicked out of rivers.
> The report given to the media complains about the destruction. If the government is so worried about destruction, why did they let it continue for two more years, if indeed it did happen. This is a non violent subject, none of these people are bad people, and in my opinion, if government noticed a problem they should have nipped it in the bud. Less people would be involved, less destruction they claim would have been, and lots of time and money could have been saved by law enforcement. Time and money that could have gone to something more important. Like illegal immigration and securing the borders. Notice how enforcement made it a point to announce it to the liberal media. Notice how they were in such haste to get up and grandstand. That's why they let this go on for two years, they wanted it big enough to boast about. Too much of this stuff goes on folks. Kinda like fast and furious, the result snowballs.
> This kind of stuff isn't common sense enforcement. It's the entrapment game so some can climb the ladder, so some can push their authority etc. Archaeology is a very competitive field. Pay attention they can't get along with one another. Some will do anything for public exposure in hopes of climbing the ladder of success, for more grant money,  to give collecting a blackeye.
> ...



Amen Son!!!A lot of the folks that got busted have displayed the same artifacts that got confiscated for years at public artifact shows.......I cant imagine what it would be like to have someone bust into my house in the early morning,throw handcuffs on me in front of my kids and then cart me off to jail.....Then proceed to confiscate every artifact I own.


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## Son (Mar 1, 2013)

> Nobody charged the government when they stole the land on which these artifacts were found



Lot of truth to that. I had land taken away from me that had several cultural periods in the dirt. The government took it away, i had to go to court to get a fair payment. I sure didn't want to lose that property either. After they got the land, they bulldozed off several cultural periods to get to the paleo level. The Harney Flats Paleo Indian site in Hillsborough Co. Fl.  I-75 took my backyard so to speak. I also saw people lose property their families had lived on for many generations. In the  name of flood control that dried up many home wells, and either stopped or altered the flow of natural waterways. It's all about those in power and their connections making money. Run out of natural resources such as water, and they continue to sell building permits, well permits and cattle grazing leases on the land taken.


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## jcdona (Mar 3, 2013)

I have considered many times of burying all my finds in one big cache on the property where most of them came from.  It would be preserving history and giving back to the land. Would also keep them out of the wrong hands. Has anyone else ever had this thought cross their mind.


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## kmckinnie (Mar 3, 2013)

jcdona said:


> I have considered many times of burying all my finds in one big cache on the property where most of them came from.  It would be preserving history and giving back to the land. Would also keep them out of the wrong hands. Has anyone else ever had this thought cross their mind.



yes


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## PrehistoricFlorida (Mar 4, 2013)

You can read a little bit about my story here: http://natecurtislegaldefense.blogspot.com/
Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please keep our family in your thoughts and prayers.


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## Son (Mar 5, 2013)

Personally, i think it would have been honorable for enforcement to give those who they knew are good citizens, a phone call and ask em to come in. Rather than go to their homes to handcuff em. Meanwhile,  government is turning loose thousands of illegals because of a shortage of money. There's no money to be made off the illegals, that's the bottom line here.


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## runswithbeer (Mar 8, 2013)

jcdona said:


> I have considered many times of burying all my finds in one big cache on the property where most of them came from.  It would be preserving history and giving back to the land. Would also keep them out of the wrong hands. Has anyone else ever had this thought cross their mind.



I'm on a creek named indian branch.   I'll bury hem or ya.   Should make everybody happy


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## Son (Mar 9, 2013)

Word is, a well known Florida collector who was arrested, has now committed suicide. Sad stuff folks.


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