# Rangefinders.....  My Thoughts..  What are Yours?



## clemsongrad (Jun 21, 2010)

We have shot several "Club Shoots" this year.  Shot with and met some good people.  BUT, I continue to get told that individuals are rangefinding the target after they shoot it.

The issue I have is that this appears to be "accepted" by some shooters and some clubs, BUT I have never seen it posted at any club as "legal" for all to do..."while participating in the Shoot/Tournament"  

It does give an advantage... If it did not then the ASA and IBO would allow them for use during tournaments too....

If you are shooting for fun and do it...fine...but DON'T turn in your score.

If the "club" hosting allows or does not allow range-finding on the course while participating in a Tournament round (for $, Trophies, etc...), it should be posted for all to see whether it is allowed or not.

It gives a shooter a very bad feeling when they continue to hear that they may have been beaten by one or multiple shooters following different rules than they are because they had an advantage other than just skill that day....

Makes it even worse to know you contributed to the $ class and realize you were never playing by the same rules... 

Your thoughts?


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## watermedic (Jun 21, 2010)

I agree, That is why I leave mine in the truck. I never want any questiolns raised whether I ranged it after or before or compared the distance from the last target to the current one...

Chuck


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## dhardegree (Jun 21, 2010)

I've used one after a shot at local events.  It's not going to improve my score on that particular shot.  It doesn't mean that the next shooting lane you come to will have the same set up as the previous one as far as animal, width of lane, in shade or sun, and distance.  If that's the case it's poor planning on the club's part.  Also, there's only one club that I've been to for a "local" shoot that had it where the lanes were set up side by side like an ASA.  In that case, have  a rule.  And if I remember correctly, that club (12pt. in Conyers) has a no range finder rule.


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## hansel (Jun 21, 2010)

I believe the only ones with rangefinders on a course are the known 45 guys, and that's it!!!!

But then again I've heard guys bouncing arrow in the dirt, and give themselves a 10


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## Rip Steele (Jun 21, 2010)

Shot with a guy sunday that used a rangefinder, but he was shooting for fun. I got no problem with that. If you shootin for money or trophy leave them jokers at the house.


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## BMCS (Jun 21, 2010)

*No Rangefinder Period*



dhardegree said:


> I've used one after a shot at local events.  It's not going to improve my score on that particular shot.  It doesn't mean that the next shooting lane you come to will have the same set up as the previous one as far as animal, width of lane, in shade or sun, and distance.  If that's the case it's poor planning on the club's part.  Also, there's only one club that I've been to for a "local" shoot that had it where the lanes were set up side by side like an ASA.  In that case, have  a rule.  And if I remember correctly, that club (12pt. in Conyers) has a no range finder rule.



I think the real deal is perception,  I think if you are shooting a course and you look up to see people ranging targets while guys in that group are still shooting and they are all talking, then at the end of the tournament 2 of those guys finish 1st and 2nd and take home the prize etc.. I could see where some doubt might creep into your mind that they were up to something.  Then you start looking at scores at other clubs and see that same guy is winning everywhere. Hmmm..  Maybe the rangefinder does help you.  Now granted you have know idea how good this guy really shoots or that he shoots 400 arrows a day all you remember is him having the rangefinder on the course ranging the targets.  Then coming in turning in a scorecard and winning first place.
Archery is a gentleman sport and is based on the honor system.  I do not like to even let it enter my mind the thought that someone may be cheating.  Once it gets in your head it eats at you and could cause you to perform poorly.

I agree with Clemsongrad and watermedic just leave the rangefinder in the truck.


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## bowman77 (Jun 21, 2010)

BMCS said:


> I think the real deal is perception,  I think if you are shooting a course and you look up to see people ranging targets while guys in that group are still shooting and they are all talking, then at the end of the tournament 2 of those guys finish 1st and 2nd and take home the prize etc.. I could see where some doubt might creep into your mind that they were up to something.  Then you start looking at scores at other clubs and see that same guy is winning everywhere. Hmmm..  Maybe the rangefinder does help you.  Now granted you have know idea how good this guy really shoots or that he shoots 400 arrows a day all you remember is him having the rangefinder on the course ranging the targets.  Then coming in turning in a scorecard and winning first place.
> Archery is a gentleman sport and is based on the honor system.  I do not like to even let it enter my mind the thought that someone may be cheating.  Once it gets in your head it eats at you and could cause you to perform poorly.
> 
> I agree with Clemsongrad and watermedic just leave the rangefinder in the truck.



I am with you on this, No rangefinders period. I does seem funny that a so called group of folks range a target after the shot while there group is still shooting and a couple of them win. If theres no Rangefinder theres No question.


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## dhardegree (Jun 21, 2010)

I can see the argument, but how many times have ya'll asked "what did you shoot that for" in that really quiet voice so the shooter on the stake can't hear you?  Not quite the same as using a range finder, but I'm just sayin'.

Also, I try to surround myself with better shooters than I am, which isn't hard to do.  That said, I would try to get in that group where the folks in question who are shooting so well and see if the assumptions are correct or if they are indeed awesome shots.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 21, 2010)

*More to it than just that target, or even the next...*



dhardegree said:


> I've used one after a shot at local events.  It's not going to improve my score on that particular shot.  It doesn't mean that the next shooting lane you come to will have the same set up as the previous one as far as animal, width of lane, in shade or sun, and distance.  If that's the case it's poor planning on the club's part.  Also, there's only one club that I've been to for a "local" shoot that had it where the lanes were set up side by side like an ASA.  In that case, have  a rule.  And if I remember correctly, that club (12pt. in Conyers) has a no range finder rule.



I agree with the OP that the rangefinders should not be used on an unknown course, even after the shot.  While it can't get you any points back on that target, it does give the shooter an advantage if they use the rangefinder info to make adjustments on the course.  For example, if I shoot an inch low of the 12 on 2 targets in a row, I may have misjudged by a yard or so, or I may be dropping my bow arm, or I may have some other form issue.  The guy with the rangefinder has the benefit of knowing if his yardage guess was right on or not, often with the exact rangefinder used to set his bow's sights.

That being said, yes I will sometimes "step off" the yardage from the target after my group has shot if I am trying to figure out if I was just wrong on my yardage, and yes I do sometimes discuss what I shot the target for with my group members after we shot.  Arguably, doing those things could provide some of the same benefits as using the rangefinder post-shot, but my legs have never been calibrated, and Lord knows when two guys compare yardage guesses, half the time they are 3 yards apart, even when both are in the 12 ring.  A rangefinder eliminates the "human" variables, and I believe it does provide an advantage for the next shot, whether the next lane is 10 yards over or 75... The shooter has a visual perception of what the last distance was, size of the animal, etc.  They can use that recently confirmed information to gauge the next target (and I think it is only human nature to do that.)  I always try to take a good look at the practice targets and get a good visual perception of 20, 30 and 40 yards (and 45-50 where applicable) before I head to the range.  With a rangefinder to use after every shot, you get to continue to hone that perception through the course, while others are wondering whether they blew the yardage, picked the wrong spot to hold on, or got sloppy with their form.

There's my 3 cents worth... I always give more than the minimum


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## KMckie786 (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree with Darren on this. For me its not the fact that people are using them to cheat. Its the fact that everytime you take your shot and verify your yardage afterwards you are keeping your eye and brain calibrated for the terrain you are judging on. On an unknown yardage course NO MATTER how you use them it is an unfair advantage to the shooters who dont use them. 

Granted if there is no rule set in stone by the club then there is no way to enforce it. With that said I know alot of clubs say they go by ASA rules, so if that is the case then rangefinders should not be allowed on the course and should be enforced that way.

I dont like to use them during any club tournament simply because when I get to the ASA I cant use my rangefinder there to make adjustments to my eye or brain. I like to know at what point or how to make an adjustment to my yardage estimation without using a range finder. 

I vote NO rangefinders! Do I get a sticker to wear on my shirt?


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## Brian from GA (Jun 22, 2010)

If you are shooting a national shoot or a state championship then do not use a range finder. If you are not using a range finder at most local shoots (again if this is something large then don't use one) then you are not getting better. I pull mine out all the time to see if it was a bad shot or a bad yardage. Why am I way down there in the leg? You can learn a ton with the range finder. I can see the argument that you should practice with it but not use it at shoots. Well if I only use my range finder on ground that I am used to what good does that do. If I go somewhere different and miss a yardage on a shot... I am pulling out a range finder. In my opinion local shoots are simply to get better. I am not there to win I am there to get better for the national shoots. One more opinion.


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## KMckie786 (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree with you 100% Brian local events are perfect practice for national events. You said you are not there to win, just practice for larger events. Do you still turn in your score card? (Not trying to be negative or argumentative here) 
I say if you use them .. fine .. but dont turn in your score card. However, I will say this, until there is a ruling on it, I will use mine on occasion (on a club level). You do make a good point and everyone else seems to be doing it as well. So if ya cant beat em join em!


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## young gunna (Jun 22, 2010)

I only use mine for deer hunting!


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## 450yardbuck (Jun 22, 2010)

I don't find any problem with checking yourself after the shot,  As long as you don't talk about the yardage until everyone is done shooting that target.  Everyone in my group usually talks about what they shot it for vs what the actual range is.  This is how you get better and get prepared for the important events.  As long as someone is not cheating by ranging before they shoot, I think it is fine.  Every target is different so I don't think it helps you on the next target.  If you really want to make all of this fare and eleminate cheating.  Make it a shotgun start and draw names for the groups like ASA.


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## Harris6048 (Jun 22, 2010)

I agree with Brian, I use a range finder after the shot.   I don't  share information with any one in my group until after everyone has shot.  If it is someone that isn't in my group 25 yards is 55 or 60.  Most of the local tournaments are practice for the ASA.  If it is a State tournament or something that is considered big Don't use it.  I do turn in my scores and I expect to be paid if I win.


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## BlackArcher (Jun 22, 2010)

*Touchy Subject...*

This subject  is as big as "when should an archer move out of novice?"

The Use of Range Finders in money class,  maybe not...  Most of the guys shooting money don't need to use a rangefinder anyways...

If you are a good money shooter 90% of the time all them boys have similar yardage and its a crap shoot as to who is in the 12..

This weekend 6 peeps in our group judged and shot a what we believed was a 52 yard target...  every one was in the ten ring trying to hit that 12... a crap shoot

Then two targets later...  Everyone except 1 judged a 49 yard target for 45-46 yards and hit about the same...  guess what! Everyone wanted to pull out a rangefinder..  Our desire to be better kicked in.  We just had to know. We all stood there staring at that target for 10 to 15 minutes improving out skill... Trying to figure where we missed the yardage... (That may be unfair) we shared the solution..  yeah! we lost it over the hill wich apeared to be flat in the uncut grass"

Usually most good shooters don't use rangefinders as you suggest.  Usually it is confirming and assuring what you already knew. Or figuring out what you didn't.

 Local tournaments are practice...   

Here is a nifty solution Post a sign that reads 
NO RANGEFINDERS or RANGING of ANY KIND.  
NO STEPPING OFF TARGETS..  
NO WALKING PAST YOUR STAKE UNLESS YOU HAVE SHOT AND PULLING ARROWS OR SCORING.  
NO MULLIGANS OR SECOND SHOTS UNLESS THEY ARE SANCTIONED AND PAID FOR.  
SPEEDING IS NOT ALLOWED SEE CLUB RULES FOR DETAILS.  
VIOLATORS WILL BE DISQUALIFIED AND YOUR FEE WILL NOT BE REFUNDED..

Please use with expressed permission of the SPANKA..


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## dhardegree (Jun 22, 2010)

450yardbuck said:


> Make it a shotgun start and draw names for the groups like ASA.



Ya'll have my opinion on the range finder, like it or not, whatever.  But, Uchee Creek tried the shotgun thing last year and that turned several out-of-towners off because them wanting to shoot with the group they traveled to the tourny with.  Shotguns, in my opinion, could interfere with events such as ball games on Saturdays and church on Sundays.


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## bowman77 (Jun 22, 2010)

dhardegree said:


> Ya'll have my opinion on the range finder, like it or not, whatever.  But, Uchee Creek tried the shotgun thing last year and that turned several out-of-towners off because them wanting to shoot with the group they traveled to the tourny with.  Shotguns, in my opinion, could interfere with events such as ball games on Saturdays and church on Sundays.



I like shot gun starts, but in the same breath I like shooting with my buddies too. If all local clubs went to the shot gun start rule, I feel that there would be very little shooter attendance and there for the clubs would fade away.


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## oldgeez (Jun 22, 2010)

we were talking about this thread at leon's today, and we came to the conclusion that this rangefinder controversy is overrated.  over the years, there have been a lot of tournaments with half known and half unknown.  the average weekend shooter will shoot a little better and oft times worse on the known side...that is definitely the case with me, but that's just me.  it's just a tool to be used to settle discussions on distance AFTER EVERYONE HAS SHOT...every target is different, and you can't stop people from walking them off.. there are set rules in the no. ga. circuit, in writing, against rangefinders.  if you are caught, you risk disqualification, but like brian says, weekend shoots are for practice...most people don't have 3d targets at home...i haven't won a weekend shoot in years, so if i get caught, it ain't no big thing.  if you hardly ever win you  wind up shooting for fun anyway..i'm not even an asa member...just my .02


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## BowanaLee (Jun 23, 2010)

450yardbuck said:


> I don't find any problem with checking yourself after the shot,  As long as you don't talk about the yardage until everyone is done shooting that target.  Everyone in my group usually talks about what they shot it for vs what the actual range is.  This is how you get better and get prepared for the important events.  As long as someone is not cheating by ranging before they shoot, I think it is fine.  Every target is different so I don't think it helps you on the next target.  If you really want to make all of this fare and eleminate cheating.  Make it a shotgun start and draw names for the groups like ASA.



I agree on the range finder part. Its no big deal as long as its after everyone shoots. I like to discuss yardage then too. Gotta learn somehow. 
Just for the record, I leave mine at home and I didn't vote either way. 
As far as shotgun starts, if they ain't after lunch time, I ain't coming.


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## Big John (Jun 23, 2010)

Man this IS Deep..... For me I'm with Brian. Local,I have one to check my-self with. I don't use it all the time. Only if I am WAY OFF. I was with SPANKA Sat and yes we all talked about the shot and ranged it. The only shoot that I won this year I did not range a target. I was on.. No need to check myself. If the rule says no then I will not do it. I will shoot with anyone you can learn so much form shooting with others. OK then I have NO Cent's so here it is LOL


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## big game (Jun 23, 2010)

if you are shooting for something dont have one 
if shooting for fun then it does not matter.


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## BlackArcher (Jun 23, 2010)

Most good archers don't need one to improve score.  Somedays you are on, somedays not.  Follow the Rules where necessary.  If no rules are officially stated, use the rangefinder responsibly .  Local tournaments are Practice for us Competition Archers who shoot on the national level...

Here is a scenario.  A fatuous group of 5 archers, has one shooter who shoots known distance. 
Whips out his RF at each target . You watch from distance.... 
Wad da ya tink about that dere laddie..? Spanka


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## dhardegree (Jun 23, 2010)

Man up and ask what class he's in shooting in and you have to assume that their being ethical and not sharing yardage.  Otherwise you get speculations.


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## oldgeez (Jun 23, 2010)

as everyone knows, in the nga all known distance shooters shoot at the close of competition, and they shoot together..this eliminates the SPECULATION. (seemed silly to me at first, but now it makes a lot of sense) if at another, less formal shall we say, shoot..a known guy gets mixed in, i'm a kind of a half full person, i would hope that there would be no cheating.  the operative word there is "hope"..there is always that little unknown factor.  i'm like big john, i got "no sense," so that's my opinion, lol!!


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## 450yardbuck (Jun 23, 2010)

I think most people just try to find an exuse why they shoot so bad.  If they see somone that usually beats them pull out his range finders after he makes a bad shot and check himself, they want to say he has an advantage.


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## BMCS (Jun 23, 2010)

450yardbuck said:


> I think most people just try to find an exuse why they shoot so bad.  If they see somone that usually beats them pull out his range finders after he makes a bad shot and check himself, they want to say he has an advantage.



Not everyone is a human rangefinder like you Travis. Ha
Nice buck in the Avatar by the way.

I think another thing is having to explain to the new archers that show up to and event and see someone using a rangefinder, not knowing what the guys are doing so they pull out there rangefinders and start ranging the targets prior to shooting. Then some experienced archer gets on to them for ranging the targets and they say them other guys are doing it, then arguments break out and the new guys never go to another event.  And Bam weve lost more archers to the sport.  I know its a stretch but heck we are all coming up with stuff.

I like Blackarchers Idea with the sign.  You either can or cant. Let the club thats holding the event decide.

I would love to range the targets after I shoot them.  Sure would beat stepping them off.  Just Kidding.


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## 450yardbuck (Jun 23, 2010)

Next time you shoot with me Rob I encourage you to use your rangefinders after the shot!  This is how I got to be a Human Rangefinder! If I could only make the shot after I guess the Yardage I could beat Levi!


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## DixiePrincess (Jun 23, 2010)

I am new to shooting tornaments and having a rangefinder has really helped me.  Ranging the shot after I shoot has done nothing but make me a better shooter!


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## clemsongrad (Jun 23, 2010)

DixiePrincess said:


> I am new to shooting tornaments and having a rangefinder has really helped me.  Ranging the shot after I shoot has done nothing but make me a better shooter!



Glad to see you enjoying the tournament side.  It is fun and adds another element to archery....

The reason I brought up the issue was for all to think about... was,/is it right/fair if "you" (anyone) win the tournament and were ranging after each shot.... which as you say has made you a better shot... and the person you beat did not range after each shot and did not know that you were doing it...or that they were allowed to do it with in the rules of the tournament...  

....should you get the $ or the prize over them?

Nationally sanctioned shoots do not allow this except in certain classes....


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## 450yardbuck (Jun 24, 2010)

You go Dixieprincess! Look, if I pick a spot on the animal and I hit exactly where I am holding, there is no need to range the target after.  The only time anyone is going to do it is to see why the missed so bad.  The key word in this whole topic is "After the Shot".  You have every right to do the same thing.  Then there is no excuse to get upset with other people trying to make themselves better.  The only reason to leave the rangefinders in the truck is that you can't trust most people and you can't be sure they aren't doing it before the shot.  Thats why if you really want to make it fair, maybe there should be at least one stranger in the group.  There would be much less chance of cheating if everyone in the group wasn't friends.


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## KMckie786 (Jun 24, 2010)

The poll would suggest that the majority think that they shouldnt be allowed period. 

I agree that shooting on a club level is just for practice and fun, but ... Really? ... do you show up saying if I lose, I dont care because it was just practice? A tournament is exactly that ... a tournament ... no matter local or national. If it werent then why give trophys and money away to the top finishers?

Someone said earlier that if they win while using their rangefinder after the shot that they expect to get the trophy or the money. But how would you feel if you were the guy that got beat by someone ranging after the shot and you werent (thinking that it was against the rules).

Why is it that only money class is the class that you shouldnt use a rangefinder in? Everybody makes mistakes on yardage. I can say that for sure ... I wish I had used mine at 12 point last weekend now (hearing how many actually use them) ... and I probably wouldnt have sailed one over the back at target 16! Maybe I would have I dont know. I do know it would have helped me at least not miss it. I wasnt accustomed to the shade and dark tagets that they had there.

I understand the fact of using locals for practice but if you do use your RF, then just dont turn in your card. It is just for practice right? If you really need the practice then shoot the tounament and go back on the course after turning in your card and do all the range practice you need. Im sure most of the clubs in the area would have no problems with that.

I like the idea of posting at the shoot, what exactly is allowed and not. 

I am kindof back and forth on this. I really dont think they should be allowed. However, it does make for good practice, and if others are using them then why shouldnt I? I dont care where I am at ...  competition is competition and I dont like to get beat unfairly ... and I dont want to beat someone unfairly either.

Great topic ... not sure its going to end though! 

Just my .02 again! That makes .04 so far haha.


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## j.irvin (Jun 24, 2010)

BlackArcher said:


> This subject  is as big as "when should an archer move out of novice?"
> 
> The Use of Range Finders in money class,  maybe not...  Most of the guys shooting money don't need to use a rangefinder anyways...
> 
> ...



I see the arguement from both sides, but I agree 100% with the SPANKA.
Has anyone seen Levi Morgan pull out his rangefinder on a course after making a shot ??


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## dgmeadows (Jun 24, 2010)

450yardbuck said:


> The only time anyone is going to do it is to see why the missed so bad.  The key word in this whole topic is "After the Shot".  You have every right to do the same thing.  Then there is no excuse to get upset with other people trying to make themselves better.  .......



It is not true that "the only time anyone is going to do it is to see why they missed so bad."  Some folks do it routinely after nearly every shot.  What several of us are saying is that during a "competition round" is not the right time to be using the rangefinder to hone your distance estimation skills, especially when many others are of the understanding that you are not supposed to be using rangefinders on the course at all.  

Like many have said, distance estimation is a skill, and one that takes practice and repetition.  To use an analogy, when you are using a rangefinder during the round to confirm or correct your guesses, it is like you are skinning an animal but sharpening the knife after every cut, while others have to use their knife as they brought it, and hope it is of good enough steel to hold its edge all the way through the task.  

I don't think the OP or anyone else that has posted here is trying to raise a big stink or accuse anyone of cheating.  It just seems there are some perceptual differences from area to area and club to club, and even person to person.  For example, I understand that to some these weekend shoots are "just practice", but to many of us, these are "competitions" in which we like to place well or win, just as we would any ASA event.  

The above post says "you have every right to do the same thing" (use a rangefinder after the shot.) But the ASA rules say otherwise.  When folks go to a club or event and see "ASA rules apply", they take it to be true.  Then they see others doing things that are against ASA rules, and it causes confusion.

Communication is the key - state the rules clearly so everyone knows what they are and can follow and enforce them uniformly.


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## watermedic (Jun 24, 2010)

You know if you make a good shot or not. 95% of the time I can tell you how far it is for sure after I shoot.  The other 5% is up in the air.

Leave em at home I say then we are all equal.


Chuck


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## firefighter310 (Jun 24, 2010)

it is up to the clubs to make the rules on using rangefinders during tournaments. if the rules say no rangefinders allowed than they need to police the courses to make they are not being used. it doesn't matter if it is used before or after the shot, it shouldn't be used. if you misjudge the distance to the target and shoot low or high you have to take the score no matter how bad it is. it is not fair to use them against people that are shooting in the same class you are. it is an unfair advantage no matter how you look at. either leave them at home or in the truck. some people take "local shoots" seriously because they can't travelto the big shoots.


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## BlackArcher (Jun 24, 2010)

*Going Forward...*



firefighter310 said:


> some people take "local shoots" seriously because they can't travel to the big shoots.



I can see your point.  
Going forward I can see a sign at target 1. 
Maybe they will be two.  The second at the registration desk.  
That hopefully would put this subject to rest.

Delivering Solutions to Mind Boggling Problems.. Spanka


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## t8ter (Jun 24, 2010)

How bout posting the distance on a peice of paper on the back of the target.Then if your not shooting a rangefinder class leave the rngfinder in the car.


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## kerbow01 (Jun 24, 2010)

i think using a range finder after tha shot makes u a better yardage judger bc u can c how and why u may hav missed the yardage estimation and go home and practice the same situation. using a rangefinder after tha shot does not help change what u shot the target for or where the prior arrow may have landed. but i guess this all depends on the club rules.


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## KMckie786 (Jun 24, 2010)

kerbow01 said:


> i think using a range finder after tha shot makes u a better yardage judger bc u can c how and why u may hav missed the yardage estimation and go home and practice the same situation. using a rangefinder after tha shot does not help change what u shot the target for or where the prior arrow may have landed. but i guess this all depends on the club rules.



It doesnt affect the shot you made or the yardage estimation BEFORE ranging, BUT it does help you recalibrate your eye and brain from the mistake you made and prepare for the next shot. The issue isnt ranging the target after the shot ... the biggest issue with me is the fact that you can hone your eye throughout the tournament. 

Everyone that said they use them after the shot say that it makes you judge better! So how is it fair to use them in a tournament situation when others are playing by different rules?


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## 450yardbuck (Jun 24, 2010)

Ok!  Lets all leave our rangefinders at the house.  Then we will stop by home depot on the way and hire us a few mexicans out of the parking lot to go pull our arrows so we can't step the target off after we shoot(Because that too is cheating).  Then will will all get the same bow, arrows, release, sight, and stabalizer so there will be no advantage to anyone.
My bow is 39" ATA which should be easier to hold steady. Is that an advantage over someone who is 35 ATA? 
If 50 people shoot a tournament, there will be 49 losers.  If the man that wins leaves his in the truck and all of the 49 losers pull out there range finders after the shot, do you think the man that won cares? NO!


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## BlackArcher (Jun 24, 2010)

450yardbuck said:


> Ok!  Lets all leave our rangefinders at the house.  Then we will stop by home depot on the way and hire us a few mexicans out of the parking lot to go pull our arrows so we can't step the target off after we shoot(Because that too is cheating).  Then will will all get the same bow, arrows, release, sight, and stabalizer so there will be no advantage to anyone.
> My bow is 39" ATA which should be easier to hold steady. Is that an advantage over someone who is 35 ATA?
> If 50 people shoot a tournament, there will be 49 losers.  If the man that wins leaves his in the truck and all of the 49 losers pull out there range finders after the shot, do you think the man that won cares? NO!



Hmnnn... Now see what you saying...  
So! Adopt NASCAR 's way of thinking...  
Hmnnn

Leveling the Playing Field for the Unskilled... Spanka


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## DixiePrincess (Jun 24, 2010)

clemsongrad said:


> Glad to see you enjoying the tournament side.  It is fun and adds another element to archery....
> 
> The reason I brought up the issue was for all to think about... was,/is it right/fair if "you" (anyone) win the tournament and were ranging after each shot.... which as you say has made you a better shot... and the person you beat did not range after each shot and did not know that you were doing it...or that they were allowed to do it with in the rules of the tournament...
> 
> ...



Yes I think I should still get the prize because I am not ranging the target before i shoot,  It is after.  If I cheated and ranged the shot before, then no, I should not get the prize.  All ranging the shot does for me is help me learn from my mistakes.


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## passthru24 (Jun 24, 2010)

You know everyone has their own opinion so here goes mine.....Rules are Rules, if ASA states No RF then No means No, and if you are a ASA club you should go by ASA rules. I run a club and we are ASA so we should go by ASA rules and a not allow RF on the range, With that said we haved not policed it well and have seen some guys do it and even done it myself at other clubs, but their are alot of other things also as important and can factor in on someone's win. Like shooting in Novice, line cutting, and so many more things. Just my 2c


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## BlackArcher (Jun 24, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong... but ASA Team Shoots allow ranging of the targets  after the contest is completed...  
I have seen it done by some pros we all know...


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## bowman77 (Jun 24, 2010)

BlackArcher said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong... but ASA Team Shoots allow ranging of the targets  after the contest is completed...
> I have seen it done by some pros we all know...



That thay do....After the shoot is finshed. Not after every shot. If folks want to walk the course after they shoot and there score cards are turned in and range the targets thats fine. But after every shot then thats not.


There are alot of folks here that has posted that the local shoot is a practice for the BIG ones, well your right it is practice. I beleave there isnt one person that has posted on this topic that goes to these local shoot not to win. My self treats the local shoots just like a bigin. I got to win just like you folks do if you didnt you wouldnt turn a score in.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 25, 2010)

*Not true either....*



450yardbuck said:


> If 50 people shoot a tournament, there will be 49 losers.  If the man that wins leaves his in the truck and all of the 49 losers pull out there range finders after the shot, do you think the man that won cares? NO!



If you look at the scores for 12 Point last weekend, you will see that 2 guys who have posted here saying people should not use their rangefinder to check after shooting targets actually won their respective classes....  So, there are 2 examples of guys that won without using the RF after shots, and those winners still care.  Why ?  Because they want to know what the rules are and for them to be followed and enforced uniformly, so next week they don't get beat by someone using the rangefinder to adjust their yardage estimation skills during the event.  

The difference between using the rangefinder after the shot, or your using a 39"  ATA bow while others have 32" bows, is that there is a section addressing the use of rangefinders in the ASA Rules, and most of the shoots say they follow ASA Rules.  Both the 39" and 32" bow are within the ASA Rules, so that is a personal choice.  The decision to use a RF after the shot is either in ignorance of the rule, a decision to ignore the rule, or local knowledge that the rule does not apply at the range you are shooting at.  

Like I have said many times about many different rules - communication is the key.  If the ASA Rules apply, except for Rules X, Y & Z, let EVERYONE know what X, Y & Z are.


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## dgmeadows (Jun 25, 2010)

*Exactly the point....*



DixiePrincess said:


> All ranging the shot does for me is help me learn from my mistakes.



Exactly right, DixiePrincess - ranging after the shot helps you figure out what mistake you just made - did you get the yardage wrong, or do something else ?  If you confirm you missed the yardage by a couple, you think, hmmm, must be that gully, or the shade, or whatever.  If the next target lane crosses that same gully, or is similarly shaded, or has the same variable that you just realized messed you up on your estimate of the last target, you are able to make that adjustment mid-tournament, thanks to the input of the rangefinder.

Meanwhile, your competitor who is not using the RF, hits low on the same target as you, and as they approach the next target, they do not know for sure whether they misjudged, or dropped their arm, or had some other form issue.  Even if they "step it off", they do not "know" that the distance was definitely wrong, especially if the miss was small (i.e., just below the 12 in the 8)

I think using a RF is a great tool to help us learn to judge.  All that many of us are saying is that during a competition round is not the right time to be doing it, if ASA Rules are supposed to be in effect.


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## Bow Pilot (Jun 25, 2010)

Most people that know me also know how wonderful I am at yardage estimation (not). I shoot known 45 at national shoots because it takes the guess work out for me. With that being said you will never see me at a local shoot with a rangefinder. 
We should all play by the same rules. If you are in a competition that means you are competing against other competitors. You can consider it practice (as I do) if you want to but it may not be practice to the other people.
If the competition is (not) known yardage then you should not have anything with you that will give you the known yardage. Some people are driven by the desire to win at all cost. Some people such as myself are in this sport for the fun and frienships that are made along the way. 

With that being said I know that most people that are complaining about rangefinders are the same people that walk off yardage as they return from the target. If you are walking off yardage it is also against ASA rules. If you are walking off yardage you are as guilty as having a rangefinder according to ASA rules.

There will always be people that try to cheat in some form to look good.

I think that most people in this sport are good, honest, hard working people.  If you use a rangefinder at local shoots, even after the shot, the perception to other competitors may be one of cheating. I say use your range finders at home to (practice) and then at the competition see how your practice paid off. 
This sport is alot like a four man scramble in golf. When friends shoot together and are willing to cheat then there is nothing to stop them(hit an eight,score a 10). 
Nothing will stop it until they bust up groups like the national events. If we want to continue to enjoy shooting with friends and having a good time then we should all police ourselves and do what we know is right.


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## crawdad24 (Jun 25, 2010)

Rangefinders on a 3D course during a TOURNAMENT???  Are we really discussing this?  If you want to learn from your mistakes do it in practice before a tournament or after a tournament.  Not while the competition is going on.  3D archery tournaments test the skills of two things, your ability to shoot and your ability to judge yardage.  It scares me to see how many people think that is ok to break the rules and carry a rangefinder onto a 3D course during competition.  If you use a rangefinder on the course you are setting yourself up for disaster. . wether your cheating or not you will automaticaly be accused of it.  This comment is not directed toward anyone - - as said before this is just my $0.02.


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## clemsongrad (Jun 25, 2010)

you are supposed to be working crawdad....

well I guess you could call this networking.....  I won't tell


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## bowman77 (Jun 25, 2010)

clemsongrad said:


> you are supposed to be working crawdad....
> 
> well I guess you could call this networking.....  I won't tell



LOL..........


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## BlackArcher (Jun 26, 2010)

Well it appears a to me that there is two schools of thoughts on this matter...
1. Local tournaments are practice so I use the RF during 3D.
2. Local tournaments are not practice it is a tournament therefore RF should not be used.

 Although this is a wonderful discussion.  I believe the ultimate decision rests with the club.  As suggested earlier.
If the club disallows the use of RFs in the 3D unknown classes, then like some clubs, the known classes will need to shoot at a designated time.  
Furthermore the unknown classes should not be allowed to shoot during that time.

"Suggestions R Us.." Spanka


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## dgmeadows (Jun 26, 2010)

*Yep, you're right...*



Bow Pilot said:


> With that being said I know that most people that are complaining about rangefinders are the same people that walk off yardage as they return from the target. If you are walking off yardage it is also against ASA rules. If you are walking off yardage you are as guilty as having a rangefinder according to ASA rules........
> If we want to continue to enjoy shooting with friends and having a good time then we should all police ourselves and do what we know is right.



Of course, Todd is right.  It is easy to rationalize that pacing off one target that really fooled you every now and then is "not the same" or "not as bad" as using a rangefinder after multiple targets a round, but there are rules against both.  As an old-school preacher might say, we're all back-sliding, but just in different ways.

If the net result of this thread is that we all refresh our understanding of the rules and leave the rangefinders behind, stop talking yardage after the shot, and stop pacing off that "stumper" target, then it has been a good thing for us all.


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## killitgrillit (Jun 26, 2010)

Which is mightier the rangefinder or the pencil?????


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## BlackArcher (Jun 27, 2010)

*Don't go there!*



killitgrillit said:


> Which is mightier the rangefinder or the pencil?????



Now that is a whole other thread!  
RF's!  The solution to this issue can be resolved by following the rules of the Hosting Club.


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## deerassassin22 (Jun 28, 2010)

*Range Finder*

I don't see the proble after the shot unless you can rewind time and pull the arrow thats how some people learn to fix their mistakes guessing yardage.  That being said a few club are having a hard time understanding what 30yards MAX means and are puttin some targets at 32 to 36 yards.  All in all I gave up on 3D for tournaments but to each his own I don't see the problem with after the shot you are always going to have cheaters with rangefinder or without remeber the PENCIL WILL ALWAYS WIN.


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## TIMBERGHOST (Jun 29, 2010)

I think that range estimation or range determination is, always has been,  and always should be an integral part of 3D Archery.  An archer's ability to perform this task, in my opinion,  is the singular function which makes this sport so unique and challenging.   

I don't think range finders should ever be permitted on a 3D course. In my opinion, they have no place in our sport other than, perhaps, to aid club or range officials in initially setting the course. 

I shoot Traditional but I am not an "Instinctive" Shooter.  I aim.  I use the tip of the arrow and the "site picture" created by the arrow in the site window of my riser.  I "know" what the site picture should look like at different ranges - 10, 15, 20,  30, etc.  and I determine  this by counting yardage from the stake to the target and from the target back to the stake.  I had no "Traditional/Instinctive Shooting Mentor when I first started in 3D.  I learned my skills from Compound shooters like most of you and the lessons you guys have taught me have served me well.  Thanks!


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## reylamb (Jun 29, 2010)

killitgrillit said:


> Which is mightier the rangefinder or the pencil?????



Which was proven at the IL ASA this weekend.....which is all that I will say about that on a public forum.

It is pretty simple really, and I agree with Big E.  It is up to the clubs.  If a club is truely following ASA rules, then the only competitors that should even have a RF in their stools are the guys shooting in the Known yardage classes.  It is a DQ in the ASA to even have a RF in your stool during an unknown round.


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## BlakeB (Jun 29, 2010)

reylamb said:


> Which was proven at the IL ASA this weekend.....which is all that I will say about that on a public forum.
> 
> It is pretty simple really, and I agree with Big E.  It is up to the clubs.  If a club is truely following ASA rules, then the only competitors that should even have a RF in their stools are the guys shooting in the Known yardage classes.  It is a DQ in the ASA to even have a RF in your stool during an unknown round.



easy cowboy


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## oldgeez (Jun 29, 2010)

i wish the cowboy would have said more


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## reylamb (Jun 29, 2010)

BlakeB said:


> easy cowboy



I stopped

Great shooting this weekend also....


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## alligood729 (Jun 29, 2010)

dgmeadows said:


> Of course, Todd is right.  It is easy to rationalize that pacing off one target that really fooled you every now and then is "not the same" or "not as bad" as using a rangefinder after multiple targets a round, but there are rules against both.  As an old-school preacher might say, we're all back-sliding, but just in different ways.
> 
> If the net result of this thread is that we all refresh our understanding of the rules and leave the rangefinders behind, stop talking yardage after the shot, and stop pacing off that "stumper" target, then it has been a good thing for us all.



 I agree Darren. I too on occasion have used a RF on local shoots, after the shot, especially if it was one that really tricked me. Not lately tho, I don't have one! lol  I actually pulled one out last year at the Classic on the last day, I had shot so crappy that by that time, I didn't really care if I was DQ'd or not.....and I guess we have all been guilty of the "what'd you shoot that for" in  hushed tones with other members of the group. 
I like this thread. I won't have one on any course from now on, unless it is a known yardage shoot, and they are permitted. Like it's already been said, it's up to us to police ourselves.......


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## BlackArcher (Jun 29, 2010)

KMckie786 said:


> I will say this, until there is a ruling on it, I will use mine on occasion (on a club level). You do make a good point and everyone else seems to be doing it as well. So if ya cant beat em join em!






BlackArcher said:


> RF's!  The solution to this issue can be resolved by following the rules of the Hosting Club.



Until it becomes the law of the land.   They will be others like yourself, who subscribes to the "When in Rome do like the Romans..."


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## Matt Sowell (Jun 30, 2010)

BlackArcher said:


> This subject  is as big as "when should an archer move out of novice?"
> 
> The Use of Range Finders in money class,  maybe not...  Most of the guys shooting money don't need to use a rangefinder anyways...
> 
> ...



one more ezra
speeding as you put it is normal speed to most just because we dont let down 15 times per target it dont mean we are speeding.

beside that

i use my rangefinder to check my yardage after the shot iot is not on every shot and usually i only use it once every shoot.  i dont see what the big problem is if a club has a problem with it then put it in your rules.  if you are an individual and have a problem with it then get over it.


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## reylamb (Jun 30, 2010)

Matt Sowell said:


> one more ezra
> speeding as you put it is normal speed to most just because we dont let down 15 times per target it dont mean we are speeding.
> 
> beside that
> ...


Speeding is in referrence to shooting an arrow faster than the allowed speed for the clubs, which for most is 280 fps +3% for chronogrpah variations, so 289 fps.


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## BlackArcher (Jun 30, 2010)

Matt Sowell said:


> speeding as you put it is normal speed to most just because we dont let down 15 times per target it dont mean we are speeding..



Arrow Speed: Is the point addressed. 280 +3% aprox 288 max
Shooting Speed:Time allotted to a shooter to make  a shot. That is another testy subject for you and other archers.
Personally I don't care how many times an archer lets down.


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## Matt Sowell (Jun 30, 2010)

BlackArcher said:


> Arrow Speed: Is the point addressed. 280 +3% aprox 288 max
> Shooting Speed:Time allotted to a shooter to make  a shot. That is another testy subject for you and other archers.
> Personally I don't care how many times an archer lets down.



im sorry for that it was my mistake
and i know about the last part and thats why i said something


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## BlakeB (Jun 30, 2010)

reylamb said:


> I stopped
> 
> Great shooting this weekend also....



thanks


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## young gunna (Jul 1, 2010)

Hey blake! Mike said good shootin!


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## Dawgs30814 (Jul 2, 2010)

I agree 100% that after you shoot it helps to range a target to improve your skills but it needs to be done while you are fun shooting (practice). If you are shooting in a tournament practice is over. No Rangefinders at tournaments.


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## dhardegree (Jul 3, 2010)

Here's an idea...  Why don't the folks who hosts shoots chime in and say what is accepted or not.  Then we all will know.


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## BlakeB (Jul 4, 2010)

It doesnt really bother me as long as they are not used before the shot. They wont help you on the next shot unless you are shooting the same shot over. Just my opinion.


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