# Denominations.......



## Derek (Feb 21, 2006)

Why do we have them???? what purpose do they serve???  To me they are just the devils way of dividing God's people which is "the church"!!!!


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## Darcy (Feb 21, 2006)

good topic. to me, it just seems like its to clarify the way everyone worships or practices their ceremonies. 

yet, arent there distinctly different beliefs with in certain demoninations? i really dont know?


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 21, 2006)

Hard to say.   On one hand I'm sure it can be viewed as division and on the other it can be viewed as casting a broader net.  I don't have the answer.  I have no doubt casting dispersion on other Christian denominations (meaning your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ), which happens very often (even here) is surely the work of the devil and no doubt gives him great pleasure.


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## Derek (Feb 21, 2006)

Do you think when we get to heaven, we will be divided into our respective denominations????? I don't think so!!!!  same thing with all white and all black churches, there will be not division in heaven........that's why I have attended and will always attend a non-denominational multi-cultural church.....its awesome.


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## FX Jenkins (Feb 21, 2006)

Good question...One that a lot of folks should consider

and the bottom line remains the same...Denominations, like any thing in this world, can work for the glory of Christ, and on the contrary, can cause confusion and division, and this result we just have to leave up to God and our faith, but this is a good and short article from one of the most promenant local denominations..

http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/clwhydenomination.asp

And interstingly enough, depending on what Counsel or Organization you want to source, Christianity alone has been credited or discredited as having anywhere from 35 to 23000 different demoniations...and this is due largely to the fact that, true to form, religious organizations cannot even agree on what a denomination is....

I think it rests with us to test everything according to scripture and our short time on this earth would be better spent simply focusing  more on the "Loving our God and  neighbor part" than spinning wheels on denominational differiences, especially those based on ceremony and tradition....


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## SBG (Feb 21, 2006)

Derek said:
			
		

> that's why I have attended and will always attend a non-denominational multi-cultural church.....its awesome.



Derek, this is not to knock your Church or your post...just a different side of the issue. But, the non-denominational Churches seem to have become a denomination of themselves.


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## Derek (Feb 21, 2006)

SBG, You are entitled to your opinion.......but regardless a denomination is "man-made", it is a human's spin on how church should be conducted......and church should be conducted by God not by schedule or tradition. not just because this is the way its always been......

Here is my church's mission statement: "Tabernacle International Church…. a good place to call home. TIC is a place where people come from every nation to proclaim the goodness of God and to experience His power through worship and teaching of the Word. TIC believes in helping you find your purpose in life through Jesus Christ."


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 21, 2006)

IMHO,   denominations help us 'group up' by our differing views of various doctrines.   If all we had to decide on was to believe or not to believe in Jesus then there would be no denominations.    But, when we have to segragate on issues like 'how we baptise in water' or 'how important Mary is to our faith' then we need to have denominations.    I don't believe that children (or anyone for that matter) should be baptised until they believe in Christ, so I am glad that there is a denomination that I can belong to that believes as I do.   

I'm glad there are denominations....and I don't see anyway around it.

Bandy


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## SBG (Feb 21, 2006)

Derek said:
			
		

> SBG, You are entitled to your opinion.......but regardless a denomination is "man-made", it is a human's spin on how church should be conducted......and church should be conducted by God... Christ."



I'll agree with you that the word denomination is man made and has been applied to different organizations by men. My point is that every church is part of a denomination. There are Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, non-denoms, etc. They have certain beliefs and liturgy that they have decided to follow that is different than other groups. 

I'm Independent Baptist. We believe that the "Baptist" name is not a denomination but a title. But to be honest, the Independent Baptist are a denomination also...even though they don't like to admit it.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 21, 2006)

If God had created all men alike in every way, there would be just one big denomination.  It's name would likely have been "Christian".

In his wisdom, God elected that man have "free will", and that we would be separate and distinct in every way.

When viewed from this standpoint, denominations may very well serve a useful purpose in the kingdom of God.  It can be said of denominations that they offer a choice for all who believe, and this is a good thing.

I am somewhat familiar with many of the so called denominations.  I have chosen to be a Southern Baptist, and am highly likely to remain so.

I spent 29 years of my life wandering in the wilderness of lift without a single person of any denomination offering a witness of Christ to me.  This all changed when a Baptist Minister knocked on my door and was faithful to present to me the Plan of Salvation.  Life has never been the same for me.  So it it clear why I became a Baptist.  I have remained Baptist for the simple reason that it has met my spiritual needs.

It always amuses me when someone proclaims with pride that "I am non-denominational", when it is obvious that they are a denomination which calls themselves "non-denominational".

I remain unconvinced that having denominations is a bad thing.


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## Derek (Feb 21, 2006)

My whole point in this thread was that IMO if all "Christians" would unite as one instead of being broke up into the different denominations/groups we would be a much much stronger force in the world.

yall take the non denominational term to literal......all I mean is that I wish every could be on the same page so that we "the church" could be a stonger force for God!!


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## Spotlite (Feb 21, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> If God had created all men alike in every way, there would be just one big denomination.  It's name would likely have been "Christian".
> 
> In his wisdom, God elected that man have "free will", and that we would be separate and distinct in every way.
> 
> ...




Good logical point, but if this were true, then who is right and who is wrong? Everyone believes different and has a different form of baptism and a different faith with every denomination, Eph 4:5 says there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 21, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> Good logical point, but if this were true, then who is right and who is wrong? Everyone believes different and has a different form of baptism and a different faith with every denomination, Eph 4:5 says there is only one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.


It is possible that many are wrong in man's eyes and many are  right in the Lord's.


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## Spotlite (Feb 21, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> It is possible that many are wrong in man's eyes and many are  right in the Lord's.




Im afraid alot of people will be right in their own eyes, Gods word proclaims that every man is right in his own eyes, not an exact quote. But yes in the end will be found to be wrong in Gods eyes, his words also proclaim to depart from me, I never knew you. Again not an exact quote. And yes many are wrong in mans eyes also. That is why I am glad that God will be the final judge.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 21, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> Im afraid alot of people will be right in their own eyes, Gods word proclaims that every man is right in his own eyes, not an exact quote. But yes in the end will be found to be wrong in Gods eyes, his words also proclaim to depart from me, I never knew you. Again not an exact quote. And yes many are wrong in mans eyes also. That is why I am glad that God will be the final judge.


Yep, then there will be almost assuredly be no one in heaven.  The Muslims KNOW they are right too.  Matter of fact, they are willing to die (and kill) for what they know is right.  
I personally believe (know) that denominations and the concentration on them are what WE make it.  They can and have been good.  They can and have been bad.


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## Spotlite (Feb 21, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Yep, then there will be almost assuredly be no one in heaven.  The Muslims KNOW they are right too.  Matter of fact, they are willing to die (and kill) for what they know is right.
> I personally believe (know) that denominations and the concentration on them are what WE make it.  They can and have been good.  They can and have been bad.




Cant argue with you on that


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## StriperAddict (Feb 21, 2006)

*Rev 5:9*



			
				Derek said:
			
		

> My whole point in this thread was that IMO if all "Christians" would unite as one instead of being broke up into the different denominations/groups we would be a much much stronger force in the world.
> 
> yall take the non denominational term to literal......all I mean is that I wish every could be on the same page so that we "the church" could be a stonger force for God!!



I've had 2 missionary experiences with christians presenting the gospel, my 1st was my favorite with Operation Mobilization in 1982.  Our 'team' was a mixture of different 'denominations' but we all came together for the express purpose of sharing God's word and reaching the lost.  My prayer time with the team was so extraordinary that I cannot put it into words.  There were no 'doctrinal' arguements, we all respected each others' reasons for being part of whatever church we belonged to, but from all our (God given!) differences, we had a profound experience with each other.  Also, which was just as wonderful, we were all from different countries, and that added to the "flavor" of the team!   

I think, Derek, this is what you're talking about, in terms of effective ministry, fellowship...   and worship, too.  But in no way God calls us to abandon our differences (denominationally or culturally) if those differences add to our witness of His love.

My 2cents...(a bit off topic, sorry!  )  there will be _all different _cultures in Heaven! (Maybe not necessarly 'denominations')  'Cause if we end up all the same, how boring would it be there!  

"You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." 
(Rev 5:9!)


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## Spotlite (Feb 21, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> I've had 2 missionary experiences with christians presenting the gospel, my 1st was my favorite with Operation Mobilization in 1982.  Our 'team' was a mixture of different 'denominations' but we all came together for the express purpose of sharing God's word and reaching the lost.  My prayer time with the team was so extraordinary that I cannot put it into words.  There were no 'doctrinal' arguements, we all respected each others' reasons for being part of whatever church we belonged to, but from all our (God given!) differences, we had a profound experience with each other.  Also, which was just as wonderful, we were all from different countries, and that added to the "flavor" of the team!
> 
> I think, Derek, this is what you're talking about, in terms of effective ministry, fellowship...   and worship, too.  But in no way God calls us to abandon our differences (denominationally or culturally) if those differences add to our witness of His love.
> 
> ...




I agree with diferent cultures and different types, colors of people all being there. What I was referring to is one believing you have to this thing to be saved and another believing you have to do something else, that is different faiths, thats why I referred to Eph 4:5. I know Japanese, Chinese, Russain and many other cultures who claim Christianity and are apart of the same denomination. But the same culture people in another denomination will tell they are wrong because they have a diff faith.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 21, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> I agree with diferent cultures and different types, colors of people all being there. What I was referring to is one believing you have to this thing to be saved and another believing you have to do something else, that is different faiths, thats why I referred to Eph 4:5. I know Japanese, Chinese, Russain and many other cultures who claim Christianity and are apart of the same denomination. But the same culture people in another denomination will tell they are wrong because they have a diff faith.



I did get your take, sorry if I'm off track.   I only wanted to point out that as long as a person has the truth of Christ, it is really a neat thing to be with different 'denominations' (and cultures) when ministering the gospel.


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## discounthunter (Feb 21, 2006)

i think denominations are a way for every body to to believe and to come together for the same goal.for instance a person divorced cannot attend a catholic church but are welcomed into many others if it werent for the other churches people would be basically outcasts.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 21, 2006)

discounthunter said:
			
		

> i think denominations are a way for every body to to believe and to come together for the same goal.for instance a person divorced cannot attend a catholic church but are welcomed into many others if it werent for the other churches people would be basically outcasts.


It's not just Catholic churches I know of Baptist churches that treat people who are in a second marriage as outcasts. I have never understood this I don't believe God has ever saved anyone that he wanted to sit on the stool of do nothing. He wants all of us to be about the father's buisness.OBTW I have only been married to the same woman for 30 years.


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## matthewsman (Feb 21, 2006)

*even in the beginning*

Christians worshiped in different ways,and were allowed to.Different churches had different problems,this is evidenced by the epistles of Paul to the churches,bth admonishing them,and encouraging them...Some of the things the young churches were doing were way off track....They were still Christians however.....

In the absence currently of Paul to keep us straight I think God leads us all through His word,according to His desire,and His purpose for each of us.......Even in the secular world,we do not train everyone the same way for different jobs....Why would God have us all in the same mindframe for Him?

I think the denominations follow Paul's line of thinking"I must be all things to all men"Allowing those who chose to worship with abandon, to band with those who feel like they do.Those who enjoy ceremony and tradition, to worship with others with the same tastes...


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## cowboyron (Feb 21, 2006)

discounthunter said:
			
		

> i think denominations are a way for every body to to believe and to come together for the same goal.for instance a person divorced cannot attend a catholic church but are welcomed into many others if it werent for the other churches people would be basically outcasts.


Here is what the bible says on divorce :
Matthew 5:31,32  "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce."
32 "But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality* causes her to commit adultry; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultry.

There's more if you would like to read: 1 Cor. 7: 10,11     Matt. 19: 8,9        Luke 16: 18


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 21, 2006)

I think that threads like "once saved always saved?" and "when is someone baptised in the Holy Ghost?" show us why there will always be denominations.   

"Christ and Him crucified" is the most important issue.

Bandy


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## big buck down (Feb 21, 2006)

Every player on a team swings the bat a different way but there all swinging for the same team.  See what I’m getting at.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Feb 21, 2006)

Cowboy...

Those scriptures are straight from the mouth of our Lord.   Nothing but RED letters....so you'd think that no one would try to debate that.    We all know though that that is not the case.     Our courts (and churches) make it too easy to divorce these days.     

"irreconcilable differences".     

Bandy


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## cowboyron (Feb 21, 2006)

Is denomination's not a form of division ??
 DIVISION CONDEMED
1 Cor.3: 3-9     
3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
4 For one says, "I am of Paul," and another, "I am of Apollos," are you not carnal?
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one?
6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God who gave the increase.
7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
* Now he who plants and he who waters is one, and each one will recieve his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are Gods fellow workers; you are Gods field, you are Gods building.

More read:  1 Cor. 1: 10-13      Eph. 4:14     Gal. 1: 6-10      2 John 9-11


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 21, 2006)

discounthunter said:
			
		

> for instance a person divorced cannot attend a catholic church...


Um guys, point of clarification, if Cathlic churches didn't allow divorced members, half the seats would be empty.  Sorry, it just gets me about some of the misconceptions out there.  I know it's never intentional, but I do feel obligated to hopefully clear up some of them when they arise here.  Catholic churches most certainly DO ALLOW divorced members with no stipulations at all.  The ONLY thing they do not allow is remarriages IN AND BY THE CHURCH, IF the previous marriage has not been annuled.


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## SBG (Feb 21, 2006)

It is truly sad that there are so many churches that have misinterpreted the scriptures about the divorce issue. Obviously, the word is quite clear about the qualifications of Pators and Deacons; however, it is taken to extremes and applied to the members.


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## Jeff Phillips (Feb 21, 2006)

Lots of good discussion and points on this thread!

I am a Southern Baptist Deacon, who grew up in the Methodist Church. My wife is the Director of Children's and Preschool Ministries at our church, been a Southern Baptist all her life. 

I grew alot as a Christian when my daughter was in the youth group at our church. I lead small groups, taught Sunday School, and went on many youth trips.

One of the best trips was a Spring Break trip to Laguna Beach Resort in PC. On this particular trip we had kids from 2 Baptist Churches, a big Methodist Church, a big group from Church of God, and a Christian Church. The theme for the week was "Many Pieces, One Puzzle".

We spent 2 days in our discussion groups talking about how we are different and 2 days talking about how we are the same. On the last day we talked about presenting a unified front in the local high schools, regardless of our church of choice.

These kids (13-18) grasped the concept that there is very little difference between us and much that we share in our love and devotion of our saviour!

Jesus talked about the faith of a child. We need to understand where we are and where we need to be, with child like faith!

If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you are my brother or sister in Christ, regardless of the name on the sign in front of your place of worship!


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## Darcy (Feb 22, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Um guys, point of clarification, if Cathlic churches didn't allow divorced members, half the seats would be empty.  Sorry, it just gets me about some of the misconceptions out there.  I know it's never intentional, but I do feel obligated to hopefully clear up some of them when they arise here.  Catholic churches most certainly DO ALLOW divorced members with no stipulations at all.  The ONLY thing they do not allow is remarriages IN AND BY THE CHURCH, IF the previous marriage has not been annuled.



thanks for stepping up and clarifying, your words were much better than anyway i could have explained it.


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## Spotlite (Feb 22, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> I did get your take, sorry if I'm off track.   I only wanted to point out that as long as a person has the truth of Christ, it is really a neat thing to be with different 'denominations' (and cultures) when ministering the gospel.



You were not off track, you made a good post and I wanted to add my post to it, it was a good opportunity to explain the diff in "cultures" and "faiths".


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 22, 2006)

*Denominations*



			
				Jeff Phillips said:
			
		

> "*If you have accepted Jesus as your Lord and Saviour you are my brother or sister in Christ, regardless of the name on the sign in front of your place of worship*!"


 
Jeff:  Excellent post!!  Your comments should go far toward clearing up this whole matter of "denominations"


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## toddboucher (Feb 22, 2006)

Great question and I think it would be great if there were no labels just brothers and sisters all the same loving one another. I read in one of Tommy Tenney  books about Chirst's prayer "that we would all be one". He was talking about how we can do this through Denominations if we look at a mountain in the fall with all its colors. Each color and leave is very different and also the same but mostly each color can bring glory to the others. One may be KJV only and others use many verisons but all can bring glory to the body of Christ in unity. Im full Gospell but Ive been on mission trips to Africa with folks who don't believe everything I do, but we laid all that religion aside and seen the Spiritually dead come alive. 

Ps 133 
" 1 How good and pleasant it is 
       when brothers live together in unity! 
 2 It is like precious oil poured on the head, 
       running down on the beard, 
       running down on Aaron's beard, 
       down upon the collar of his robes. 

 3 It is as if the dew of Hermon 
       were falling on Mount Zion. 
       For there the LORD bestows his blessing, 
       even life forevermore.

When I witness to people from other religions they always ask the same question-why are there so many different titles under your Faith?


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 22, 2006)

*Donominations*



			
				Derek said:
			
		

> "*My whole point in this thread was that IMO if all "Christians" would unite as one instead of being broke up into the different denominations/groups we would be a much much stronger force in the world".*


 
Derek: You seem firm in your mindset that "denominations" is a bad thing, yet you have not offered any comment as to why you feel this way. It might prove useful to others to know why you take this position.


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## brofoster (Feb 22, 2006)

Derek,

     If you don't mind, what church do you belong to?

Brofoster


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## brofoster (Feb 22, 2006)

My take on denominationalism is this: It goes against God's plan.  One thing I try not to do though is get into a religious arguement with someone.  This can be a hard subject.  For one, everyone has, and is entitled to, his or her own opinion.  Until a person is willing to sit down with me and agree that the Word of God (Bible) is inspired completely by God and is the final answer; we don't talk.  You can, and I have, went around and around about opinions on the book.  Everyone has an opinion and is not willing to budge.  That is where the Bible comes in. The book tells us "let us come and reason together", not argue back and forth about what we think.

  In 1 Cor 1 Paul admonishes the brothers "to all speak the same thing and that there be no divisions among you".
Obviously we have messed that part up with all the different groups we have, and we definitely do not all speak the same thing.  Some followed Paul, Sephas, Appollos and some Christ.  The followed the man instead of the message.  That is where we are today.  Everybody wants a convenient church with no rules where you can do what you want, and come when you choose.  Big Megachurches with famous folks on TV.  No problem with that but when you bounce their preaching against the Bible it doesn't hold true.

Then there is the preaching that we are not together on.
I have heard of so many bogus ways to get saved that it is rediculous.  In the original Church the belivers:
1 heard the gospel
2 believed it in their pricked hearts
3 repented of their sins
4 Confessed Christ as Lord
5 Were baptized to recieve the gift of the holy spirit

Today you just need to lay your hands on the TV or pray the sinners prayer.  That is not scripture.  

At my church we have a simple creed:
We are silent where the Bible is silent.
We do not add or take away.
No other creed but Christ.
No other book but the Bible.

And that is scripture.   

This is good though we need to talk about it.  I will be back with another post tonight.

Brofoster


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## FX Jenkins (Feb 22, 2006)

I may be wrong here but in the end, Im not neccearily sure that there will be different cultures/races in heaven.  I am sure that various cultures/races will make it to heaven, and we will know each other as we were known, but I wouldn't be suprised if all characteristics of division are removed from our new bodies,  reason being, we were all created in Gods image, and our different languages (and I believe races) came into play at the tower of babel, when God dispressed us for believing that we could reach Him in our own strength...It might just be that physical characteristics are indicernable, especially in light of Gods glory...just a thought...not a decleration...


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## Derek (Feb 22, 2006)

Vernon,,,, here is my reasoning: "My whole point in this thread was that IMO if all "Christians" would unite as one instead of being broke up into the different denominations/groups we would be a much much stronger force in the world.

yall take the non denominational term to literal......all I mean is that I wish every could be on the same page so that we "the church" could be a stonger force for God!!"

I don't mean that denominations are bad in every sense, but you agree that denominations are man made and I'm not about Man's business, I'm about God's business.

With everything that is happening in the world, all the signs are pointing toward that we are living in the last days and I would love to see "the church" come together and unite as one big force to win souls for Christ.    

Brofoster, I attend Tabernacle International Church in Lawrenceville, GA  www.thetabernacle.org

Another afterthought I had was if a you are a non-believer on the brink and asking questions and you ride down the road and see all the many different kinds of churches their are wouldn't the first question you would ask be "why so many different types?"  what's the difference??  What kind of message does that send to the non-believers....


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 22, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> It is truly sad that there are so many churches that have misinterpreted the scriptures about the divorce issue. Obviously, the word is quite clear about the qualifications of Pators and Deacons; however, it is taken to extremes and applied to the members.




AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DB BB


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## brofoster (Feb 23, 2006)

FX,

     I want to give you some insight into state of being after the ressurection.  This old body will be changed and we will be as our savior is now.  There will be no such thing as black and white, marriage, or brothers and sisters as we know it today.  You know, the way we do things down here.  I hate to admit it but that is a major factor when I am looking for places to hunt.  I have met some great people in the process, but there is still a good reminant of ignorant folks to deal with.  Heaven won't have black on one side and white on the other, and anyone who plans on getting there has to let that mess go.  I go to church because of what is done there not who is in there.  I served cummunion in a church in TN one day and most folks wouldn't look at me or just refused to take it from me.  Just because I didn't look right.  But back to the body and the hereafter. 

1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord. 

Brofoster


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 23, 2006)

Brofoster,
I've said this before but it may be before your joining us so I'll say it again.  You are right in what you say but I hope you are wrong.  I hope as we walk up to the pearly gates St. Peter instantly becomes whatever race we had the most 'problem' with in our hearts on earth.  I also hope our Lord and Savior is the same.  I hope they look sadly at that man who claimed to be a Chrisitian but was in fact a racist (they can not co-exist) and they say "You don't know how sorry we are, but you may not enter.  We don't know how much clearer the teachings could have been."  I bet you do have a problem finding a welcoming club in much of Georgia and that is disgustingly sad.  I have not joined clubs for exactly what you are describing and I know today they still probably scratch their heads and wonder why.  
Anyway, sorry to stray off topic, but I'll proudly share the woods with you anyday Brofoster.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 23, 2006)

brofoster said:
			
		

> FX,
> 
> I want to give you some insight into state of being after the ressurection.  This old body will be changed and we will be as our savior is now.  There will be no such thing as black and white, marriage, or brothers and sisters as we know it today.  You know, the way we do things down here.  I hate to admit it but that is a major factor when I am looking for places to hunt.  I have met some great people in the process, but there is still a good reminant of ignorant folks to deal with.  Heaven won't have black on one side and white on the other, and anyone who plans on getting there has to let that mess go.  I go to church because of what is done there not who is in there.  I served cummunion in a church in TN one day and most folks wouldn't look at me or just refused to take it from me.  Just because I didn't look right.  But back to the body and the hereafter.
> 
> ...



We're just an old timey Baptist church in Murphy, NC and we have blacks at our church quite often and nobody gives it a thought. If we are saved were brothers and sisters in Christ.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 23, 2006)

Brofoster:  I share that hope of which you speak.  That will surely be a select group there. 

 No rejection, no pain, no sorrow, no hunger, thirst or disappointment.  The only surprise will be who is there, and who will be missing.

Even now, come Lord Jesus!!


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## SBG (Feb 23, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> Even now, come Lord Jesus!!




Amen!!!


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## blindhog (Feb 25, 2006)

cowboyron said:
			
		

> Is denomination's not a form of division ??
> DIVISION CONDEMED
> 1 Cor.3: 3-9
> 3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men?
> ...



Amen, here is clear written scripture against such a concept in the body of Christ!


Also look at this:  1Cor 1:12..."Now I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul (Southern baptist);  and I of Apollos (Methodist);  and I of Cephas (Church of God);  and I of Christ.
13...."IS CHRIST DIVIDED?".......

I interjected the parentheses to illustrate how todays world parallels what Jesus through Paul was addressing then.

Folks the only rationalization for denominations comes from the flesh, not the Spirit!!


Go with the peace of God.


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## SBG (Feb 25, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Folks the only rationalization for denominations comes from the flesh, not the Spirit!!
> 
> 
> Go with the peace of God.



So, a believer should yoke himself with any Church for the sake of eliminating denominations? What if that Church teaches a false doctrine? Or what if that Church has become carnal/worldly/liberal for the sake of numbers?

No, the desire to separate from false doctrine and liberality, and the fact that the result of this separation groups like minded believers together in a "denomination" is indeed Spirit guided and an obedience to God's word. 

I've never read anywhere in the Bible where there is one example of God wanting believers to compromise for the sake of having one universal local Church. On the contrary, God demands that believers, " come out from among them." 

It is the flesh that drives men to ecumenicalism and the accompanying compromises that comes with it.


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## PWalls (Feb 25, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> No, the desire to separate from false doctrine and liberality, and the fact that the result of this separation groups like minded believers together in a "denomination" is indeed Spirit guided and an obedience to God's word.



Exactly.


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## redwards (Feb 25, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> .....No, the desire to separate from false doctrine and liberality, and the fact that the result of this separation groups like minded believers together in a "denomination" is indeed Spirit guided and an obedience to God's word......
> 
> .......It is the flesh that drives men to ecumenicalism and the accompanying compromises that comes with it.


Very well said, SBG!


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## redwards (Feb 25, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Amen, here is clear written scripture against such a concept in the body of Christ!
> 
> 
> Also look at this: 1Cor 1:12..."Now I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul (Southern baptist); and I of Apollos (Methodist); and I of Cephas (Church of God); and I of Christ.
> ...


Please, apply the quoted scripture to these questions....

So then...If one worships God in the fellowship of a group of Christian believers in a church building that associates its name with Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, Presbyterian, etc...., rather than in the fellowship of a group of Christian believers in a home..., or in a church building that is "non-denominational"...., *which* *location* makes the individual more worthy in the eyes of God?

After all, simply by definition...., 
de-nom-i-na-tion
n.
1. A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
2. One of a series of kinds, values, or sizes, as in a system of currency or weights: _Cash registers have compartments for bills of different denominations._
3. A name or designation, especially for a class or group.

.....Hasn't the group that meets in a home by itself, or in a "non-denominational" church building in essence set itself up as a "denomination" of one?

So then, it gets back to the one central truth,


> Luke 4:8
> And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt *worship* the *Lord* thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.


Does it not?


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## blindhog (Feb 26, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> So, a believer should yoke himself with any Church for the sake of eliminating denominations? What if that Church teaches a false doctrine? Or what if that Church has become carnal/worldly/liberal for the sake of numbers?
> 
> No, the desire to separate from false doctrine and liberality, and the fact that the result of this separation groups like minded believers together in a "denomination" is indeed Spirit guided and an obedience to God's word.
> 
> ...



I like what you are saying, but I believe you have missed the point of the scripture.

So, by what you are saying all "denominational" seperations are Spirit guided.

By these divisions it appears that Christ is divided, just as Paul wrote about in Corinthians.

There IS one Faith, and scripture gives us this pattern to follow in the New Test.
Recognizing this pattern compared to scripture separates the ONE Faith body of believers from those in error.

Also being in error does not nullify salvation, but hinders mature growth.

Peace.


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## blindhog (Feb 26, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> Please, apply the quoted scripture to these questions....
> 
> So then...If one worships God in the fellowship of a group of Christian believers in a church building that associates its name with Baptist, Methodist, Church of God, Presbyterian, etc...., rather than in the fellowship of a group of Christian believers in a home..., or in a church building that is "non-denominational"...., *which* *location* makes the individual more worthy in the eyes of God?
> 
> ...



Yes one central truth.  Of course.  But we are warned to recognize error.  By the written Word we know what is error.

We are clearly told that associating with a "denominational name" we are in error.
I didn't say that, God did.

Who's "more worthy" you ask?  Noone is made "more worthy", as we are all equally saved and justified and sanctified through Jesus.

Some bear more fruit, and some are in more error.  Not a question of who's more worthy.

Just a question of who is following the NT pattern for assembly more closely.

Peace.


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## SBG (Feb 26, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> I like what you are saying, but I believe you have missed the point of the scripture.
> 
> So, by what you are saying all "denominational" seperations are Spirit guided.
> 
> ...



I didn't mean to imply that all "denominations" are the result of Spirit guidance...obviously all are not. I meant to share my belief that denominations are here now because at one time, some of them anyway, were escaping the pollutions of false doctrine.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 27, 2006)

*The 7 churches in Rev., etc.*

Some thoughts/questions...

There may be only "geographical" *titles* to the churches listed in Rev Chap's 1 -3, but God deals with each one individually ("the church in Sardis", "Philadelphia", etc.) on the basis of that church's faith or apostacy.  During the apostles day, "house churches" went up all over, and I would conclude that the same diciplines of a geographical church would apply to these home assemblies also.  (Enough was already said in the "Church dicipline" thread, so I won't go there).

That said, would it have been more biblical to attempt to unite with the Roman Catholic church (the "then" universal church out of the vatican) in the days of the (necessary) reformation, or to set new "articles of faith" in order for the believers at that time to evangelize & spread the gospel?  Note that, having done this, _new assemblies_of believers were formed & had new, albeit... 'denominational' names. 

How was this a movement of "the flesh" and not "the Spirit"???   

(In my example above, no offense was intended to my Catholic brethren  )


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## blindhog (Feb 27, 2006)

Well.....let 's say I think that having to go by a "name" to signify your "following" in christianity is in direct oposition to what Paul was writing about in 1Cor.  He explained this made the body appear "divided".  To whom does it appear divided?  Christians and the unsaved alike I think.

So in reflecting on the written Word, the act of an assembly having to "seperate" itself by a denominational name.....HAS to be of the flesh....as SCRIPTURE points out plainly.

Evangelizing, spreading the gospel, living a sanctified life, "seperating" by living this way,  different from the world but still apart of it;  THIS is scriptural.

Men tend to start identifying with a "religion" (ie. a name), rather than the simple truth and teachings of Christ.  This has to be the point of 1Cor,  but we are all "in the flesh" still, and none of us perfect!

peace.


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## SBG (Feb 27, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Well.....let 's say I think that having to go by a "name" to signify your "following" in christianity is in direct oposition to what Paul was writing about in 1Cor.  He explained this made the body appear "divided".  To whom does it appear divided?  Christians and the unsaved alike I think.
> 
> So in reflecting on the written Word, the act of an assembly having to "seperate" itself by a denominational name.....HAS to be of the flesh....as SCRIPTURE points out plainly.
> 
> ...



Using this logic...all are guided by the flesh. Because all are in some kind of denomination.


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## blindhog (Feb 27, 2006)

I didn't say "guided" by the flesh, but "in the flesh", meaning sometimes swayed by this entrapment of the cleansed spirit.

It needs to be clear my point and the point I believe written in scripture is that we are not to call out ourselves as affiliated with a "namesake" for our faith, thereby creating a "division" by having different names labeling our belief, or faith.

All are not in a "namesake" denomination.  I quit calling myself by that years ago.  You know, like when someone ask "are you a Baptist"?
I always reply, no..., I am a disciple of Jesus Christ.
I am not alone in this either.

Read 1Cor 1:9-13....what is the meaning?


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## IshotBambi (Feb 27, 2006)

Doesn't 1 Cor. 12: 12-31 cover this- one body, many parts?


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## blindhog (Feb 27, 2006)

Not really....it is more dealing with the different gifts/abilities/duties  of all saints being of equal importance, all needed to make the body one whole part.

NOT about giving a "namesake" to our One Faith.  Compare it to 1Cor 1:9-15......I see a different teaching.


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## cowboyron (Feb 27, 2006)

IshotBambi said:
			
		

> Doesn't 1 Cor. 12: 12-31 cover this- one body, many parts?



The Church is the body of Christ (Eph. 1:23). Body is the Church (Col. 1:18,24).
In New Testament it teaches that there is one body. This figure emphasizes the singularity of the Church: Many members -one body (Rom. 12:4-5).But one body (1 Cor. 12:20).
One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism, ONE BODY (Eph. 4:4-5).

Christ is head of His Spiritual Body--The Church (Col. 1:18; Eph. 1:23).  His dominion over the Church is complete--"Head over all things to the Church which is His Body"
Just as the members of one's physical body must be subject to his mind-so we must be subject to Christ in everything as members of his body. (Eph. 5:24).
What the Head commands we can and must do. What He does not command and teach we must not do (2 Jno. 9).
From the Head comes the impulses that strengthen and move the members of the Body in the performance of their work ( Eph. 4:15-16).


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## StriperAddict (Feb 27, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Well.....let 's say I think that having to go by a "name" to signify your "following" in christianity is in direct oposition to what Paul was writing about in 1Cor.  He explained this made the body appear "divided".  To whom does it appear divided?  Christians and the unsaved alike I think.
> 
> So in reflecting on the written Word, the act of an assembly having to "seperate" itself by a denominational name.....HAS to be of the flesh....as SCRIPTURE points out plainly.
> 
> ...



I think you missed the point in my post that some changes and movements in the church are a direct result of keeping the church from false doctrine.  The reformation started many years ago, the evangelical movement started a while ago too.  There were direct purposes in each of these that were led by the Holy Spirit in terms of building the body of Christ.  When these groups formed into regional (and local) church assemblies, there was just cause to give themselves a name that:
1) Would associate them with the truth/revelation that guided thier path under the influence of the Spirit;
and, 
2) that also conveyed to Christians (and, yes, the world, too) that they, of necessity, must abandon the false doctrines of "xx" assembly/group/denomination and uphold the bible as the final authority in matters of doctrine.. 

So these groups moved away from false doctrine, and then, what... ?  sinned because they choose a "name" for themselves??


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## StriperAddict (Feb 27, 2006)

*on division...*



			
				blindhog said:
			
		

> Well.....let 's say I think that having to go by a "name" to signify your "following" in christianity is in direct oposition to what Paul was writing about in 1Cor.  He explained this made the body appear "divided".  To whom does it appear divided?  Christians and the unsaved alike I think.



Paul's take on "division" is more about the carnal way christians were associating themselves with a single 'teacher', than about these christians being rebuked for "denominations".  What this means is, while I enjoy my own pastor's teachings, I attend the church because it's primary focus is on dicipleship and bringing the gospel to the unsaved.  It would be wrong for me to say that I'm a diciple of a certain Pastor rather than of Christ, like the carnal Corinthians were doing in Paul's time.

IMO


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## blindhog (Feb 28, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> Paul's take on "division" is more about the carnal way christians were associating themselves with a single 'teacher', than about these christians being rebuked for "denominations".  What this means is, while I enjoy my own pastor's teachings, I attend the church because it's primary focus is on dicipleship and bringing the gospel to the unsaved.  It would be wrong for me to say that I'm a diciple of a certain Pastor rather than of Christ, like the carnal Corinthians were doing in Paul's time.
> 
> IMO



A single "teacher" or a single "teaching"....what's the difference?  Same concept of action.  Still creating a division by a "name" association.
Most christians will tell you they are a "baptist', methodist", Assembly of God".....rather than say " I am a disciple of Jesus".

Still "name" association.  What Paul wrote against.  I think most "denominations" got started from a single "teacher"?


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## blindhog (Feb 28, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> I think you missed the point in my post that some changes and movements in the church are a direct result of keeping the church from false doctrine.  The reformation started many years ago, the evangelical movement started a while ago too.  There were direct purposes in each of these that were led by the Holy Spirit in terms of building the body of Christ.  When these groups formed into regional (and local) church assemblies, there was just cause to give themselves a name that:
> 1) Would associate them with the truth/revelation that guided thier path under the influence of the Spirit;
> and,
> 2) that also conveyed to Christians (and, yes, the world, too) that they, of necessity, must abandon the false doctrines of "xx" assembly/group/denomination and uphold the bible as the final authority in matters of doctrine..
> ...



Are there any denominational names recorded in the New Testament?

How were local assemblies signified by Pauls writings?


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## Spotlite (Feb 28, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Well.....let 's say I think that having to go by a "name" to signify your "following" in christianity is in direct oposition to what Paul was writing about in 1Cor.  He explained this made the body appear "divided".  To whom does it appear divided?  Christians and the unsaved alike I think.
> 
> So in reflecting on the written Word, the act of an assembly having to "seperate" itself by a denominational name.....HAS to be of the flesh....as SCRIPTURE points out plainly.
> 
> ...



I read 1 Cor last night and was going to make a post, but decided not to, but your right, Christ is not devided. In Acts 2, the CHURCH was born and God added to the CHURCH as needed, and they conitinued in the Apostles doctrine.
Galations 1: 8 & 9 tells us that basically anything preached other than the Apostles doctrine is cursed. The 7 churches in Rev that someone used earlier, they are 7 churches, not 7 denominations. When God added to the Church, it grew and when they went out teaching, the Church grew in the places they taught. Nowhere does it give an example of more than one denomination, as a matter of fact, it says there is one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 28, 2006)

Did all the apostles believe exactly the same?


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## redwards (Feb 28, 2006)

Since, I am firstly a born again believer, and secondly a member of a Southern Baptist church, I must be "more in error", so I will leave this discussion (turned to contest) to the "less in error".


			
				blindhog said:
			
		

> Yes one central truth. Of course. But we are warned to recognize error. By the written Word we know what is error.
> 
> We are clearly told that associating with a "denominational name" we are in error.
> I didn't say that, God did.
> ...


However, here is one scripture passage to ponder.


> Psalm 133: (KJV)
> 
> 1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
> 2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
> 3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.


Ralph


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## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 28, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> Since, I am firstly a born again believer, and secondly a member of a Southern Baptist church, I must be "more in error", so I will leave this discussion (turned to contest) to the "less in error".
> 
> That's why I seldom post on them.


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 28, 2006)

*Concentrate on similarities or differences?*



			
				StriperAddict said:
			
		

> That said, would it have been more biblical to attempt to unite with the Roman Catholic church (the "then" universal church out of the vatican) in the days of the (necessary) reformation


The answer is obviously YES!  Then we wouldn't have all this commotion!   
Some of you guys ought to lighten up a little.  


For at LEAST 1,625 years....


> The Nicene Creed
> I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.
> 
> And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.
> ...


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## Win270Brown (Feb 28, 2006)

Denominations, in and of themselves, are not wrong. HOWEVER, once it brings seperation in the Body of Christ, which is the Church, which is EVERY believer, THEN there exists a problem. People tend to lose focus and forget that being a Christian is about faith, hope and most importantly, love. Just my 2 cents.


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## Spotlite (Feb 28, 2006)

GeauxLSU said:
			
		

> Did all the apostles believe exactly the same?



Yes, they were given the great commission.
They were also told to start in Jerusalem and stay there until they were endued with power from on high. That power came in Acts.


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 28, 2006)

*Denominations*

In the meantime, we find ourselves early in the twenty first century.  Most of you seem to be saying that our efforts to serve Christ are in vain since we function within denominations which are man made and contrary to the teachings of the Apostles.

You seem to have the problem figured out, now you can work on the solution.  *From the practical standpoint, what would you propose that we do about it??  *I hope that you would not propose that we just abandon our Sanctuaries and "donominations" and nestle together with a few souls scattered about here and there in private homes.

I have read this entire thread as it has developed.  I seem to be the only contributor who has taken the position that denominations are not all bad.  As a matter of fact there may be more good than bad.  further I would say that denominations may very well have evolved with God's blessings.  There is a truism which states: "God moves in mysterious ways his wonders to perform".  God has utilized strange means (strange to us) to accomplish his will.  Remember Rahab the harlot, or Nebudchadnezzar, or the Phillistines, or the youth, David with his sling??

Who then can say with certainty that God has not been a factor in sustaining denominations??


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## GeauxLSU (Feb 28, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> 1) *From the practical standpoint, what would you propose that we do about it??  *
> 2) I seem to be the only contributor who has taken the position that denominations are not all bad.
> 3)Who then can say with certainty that God has not been a factor in sustaining denominations??


Mr. Vernon,
1) Remember and cocentrate on the common ground which surely is (or at least better be) the only thing that truely matters for our eternity.
2) I most certainly am in agreement.  
3) No one.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2006)

*Thje Ecumenical movement*

Sorry, GeauxLSU
you're right, I gotz 2 lighten up!     !!

But I gotta bring up another point!    Hang in there!

If it's  I'll let ya'll decide


This subject & some notes said here also points to the errors, tragedy and anti-scriptural, (and anti-church bible-doctrine) of the (hold your breath)...
Ecumenical movement.

Do some of you really want to group all "christians" together and have the major points of salvation & the Christian faith put on the chopping block in the name of *UNITY??*

The TRUE Christian faith UNITES Christians, but it certainly DIVIDES us with the WORLD. (Matt10:34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." ~Jesus) 

"False unity" is precisely what the ecumenical movement is trying to do, make one big happy church family that "embraces all sorts of doctrine" and waters down the truth.  Denominational differences were started because the church was, in effect, loosing it's take on important creeds/articles of faith.

When I grew up, I was in a protestant denomination that went along with the "Long Island Council of Churches". (I know, I know, I'm getting just too close for some of ya'll's comfort zone  ) When I became a born again believer, with time I fully understood where this allegance was going.  The denomination embraced the anti-christian teachings out of this "council", one of which was a woman's "right" to an abortion! 
So, I started writing letters to some of the leaders, and though I tried desperatly to show where the movement was leaving it's christian roots and embracing a "one world-church" strategy, they couldn't budge.  Is this pattern scriptual??  



			
				 Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> Who then can say with certainty that God has not been a factor in sustaining denominations??


  ...indeed!

Anyway, this ecumenical movement is coming really close to the "one world church" the book of Daniel and Revelation warns us about.  This is a main reason denominations and thier formation were of the Spirit and not necessarly of men, IMHO  

Ok, fire away!!


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## Spotlite (Feb 28, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> Sorry, GeauxLSU
> you're right, I gotz 2 lighten up!     !!
> 
> But I gotta bring up another point!    Hang in there!
> ...



One doctrine is not about a one world church, the one doctrine is Biblical, Eph 4:5. Jesus warned us not to go to and fro after strange doctrines. If its not the Apostles doctrine according to Gal 1:8, its cursed. I understand there is alot of movements out there that are soley for a one world govt, and a one world church, but it has nothing to do with the Apostles and what they taught.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> One doctrine is not about a one world church, the one doctrine is Biblical, Eph 4:5. Jesus warned us not to go to and fro after strange doctrines. If its not the Apostles doctrine according to Gal 1:8, its cursed. I understand there is alot of movements out there that are soley for a one world govt, and a one world church, but it has nothing to do with the Apostles and what they taught.



I'm in full agreement with you. I should have stated the obvious.  But being in agreement with the bible/scriptures and "apostles doctrine" doesn't set aside the reality of denominations and why they were formed.  In fact, your point is one of the very reasons why the Holy Spirit seemed to move assemblies to embrace the truths of scripture where other church groups weren't doing so.  

I just tried to point out that the ecumenical movement is a "false unity" or, false and anti-scriptural way towards unity.


----------



## blindhog (Feb 28, 2006)

Well....can we look at this in light of written scripture?

Particularly 1Cor 1: 9-13?

Vernon how does you question about God sustaining denominations line up with this scripture?

WHY NOT follow the pattern for assemblies of the early church?

Does scripture teach us to change that pattern anywhere?

StiperAddict I am with you up and down on the "ecumenical" movement.

No. Ga. Mt. Man scripture should be used as iron to sharpen iron, please don't shy away, I promise not to git offended  

I am not blind (hehe) and see the practical question of how to identify false teaching assemblies, and it seems denomination names is the answer.  But I think God wants us to find another system.  Maybe by being Bereans or something.  

I believe we can all agree that having denominations IS a dividing factor to a degree.  In witnessing I have had THAT thrown up to me more than once.

Eph 4:5  One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.


I'm not trying to say you all have to leave your denominations, or burn!!

I'm trying to make aware the point of scripture concerning this topic.


----------



## StriperAddict (Feb 28, 2006)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Well....can we look at this in light of written scripture?
> 
> Particularly 1Cor 1: 9-13?
> 
> ...



Gotcha!  No offence ever taken or intended.  I appreciate all that was brought out on this thread.  I think it's easy to see that as there are differences in each of us in the body of Christ, that those differences color our thoughts on any given subject.  

Perhaps that's another reason we embrace a certain church over another, or better... that God allows all the differences in our person to lead us at times to the place where we may be effective for Him.
IMO


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 28, 2006)

*Denominations*



			
				blindhog said:
			
		

> "Well....can we look at this in light of written scripture?
> Particularly 1Cor 1: 9-13?
> *Vernon how does you question about God sustaining denominations line up with this scripture?  WHY NOT follow the pattern for assemblies of the early church"?*


 
Blindhog:  It may not meet with your approval, but I believe that scripture should be interpreted in light of its context.

Paul was concerned with the condition of the Church at Corinth which had fallen into a terrible state.  Their problems were many.  The Church had become worldly to the point where their behavior mirrowed the wicked city of Corinth.  Sexual immorality abounded.  Differences which arose in the Church were settled by lawsuits.  They made mockery of the Lords Supper.  Judiazers were advocating circumcism, and the list goes on.

Paul addressed this letter to the Corinthian Church to admonish them and to call them to repentance and to restore them to unity with Christ and one another.

In no way do I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ today can be compared with the Church at Corinth.  This seems to be what you are implying.  Obviously the Corinthian Church had fallen to a low estate.

I agree that the principles which he espoused in his letter could apply to the Church today if it were in the same condition as the Corinthian Church.

You seem to be equating denominations with divisions.  I would not make that leap.

It is also a leap to imply that "denominations" of today do not follow the pattern of the early Church.  I would prefer that the Savior would some day make that judgement.

I happen to believe that the Church which Christ established is still alive and well today and will be until such time as he comes for it.  He has empowered it and sustains it in spite of naysayers, denominations, principalities, powers, things present, or things to come.

To imply, or to state that God is not working thru denominations today is to make God out a liar.  He promises, *"I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" *Romans 13:5


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man (Feb 28, 2006)

Well said as usual Mr. Vernon.


----------



## Hunting Teacher (Feb 28, 2006)

Forgive me but getting this hung up on what name a church uses seems a little silly to me. 
I have to believe each true believer / church will be judged on our actions and not what name we used. 
I feel God has led me to be a member of a Southern Baptist church here. I don't go there because the sign says Baptist, I go there because I believe my understanding of Gods word and the leading of the Holy Spirit tell me that's where I belong. 
Are some of you saying God sees it as sin if anyone says they are a Baptist , Catholic, Church of Christ etc? 
Of course it would be better if we were all in total agreement and every follower of Christ believed the same way and understood God's word perfectly without ever making a mistake. But Adam and Eve and every human since has guaranteed that won't happen. Look at the way different Christians right here on this post have interpreted the same scripture differently. Yet all can make a case as to why they believe the scripture means what they feel it means.
Denominations are not the problem. It's when we start thinking our way is better. That's when the body of Christ is harmed.
Teach


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## Vernon Holt (Feb 28, 2006)

Teach:  Thank you for a very clear and accurate statement!!


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## Spotlite (Mar 1, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> I'm in full agreement with you. I should have stated the obvious.  But being in agreement with the bible/scriptures and "apostles doctrine" doesn't set aside the reality of denominations and why they were formed.  In fact, your point is one of the very reasons why the Holy Spirit seemed to move assemblies to embrace the truths of scripture where other church groups weren't doing so.
> 
> I just tried to point out that the ecumenical movement is a "false unity" or, false and anti-scriptural way towards unity.



I understand, but as blindhog stated, the denominational name or aspect has been thrown out as judgement as to say, if your not Baptist, Catholic or whatever, you dont have the truth. But IMO, the name on the door is only worth what it is written on, as long as we stay in the doctrine Jesus intended for us, we are going to be judged as Gods children and not by denomiational name.


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## SBG (Mar 1, 2006)

Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> Are some of you saying God sees it as sin if anyone says they are a Baptist , Catholic, Church of Christ etc?
> 
> Teach



I will say this in answer to your question: There are many denominations today that have left their roots so to speak. They have fallen into the snares of false teachers that teach false doctrine. If someone has yoked themselves to a Church that has lost its compass and is teaching doctrine contrary to the scriptures, they are indeed in sin.


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## Spotlite (Mar 1, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> I will say this in answer to your question: There are many denominations today that have left their roots so to speak. They have fallen into the snares of false teachers that teach false doctrine. If someone has yoked themselves to a Church that has lost its compass and are teaching doctrine contrary to the scriptures, they are indeed in sin.




Thats the plain truth right there. Regardless of the name, if its not doctrine according to scripture, it is sin.


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## SPITCAN (Mar 1, 2006)

Maybe we were predestined into the denominations we worship in? Just a thought!


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2006)

*Great post*



			
				Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> Forgive me but getting this hung up on what name a church uses seems a little silly to me.
> I have to believe each true believer / church will be judged on our actions and not what name we used.
> I feel God has led me to be a member of a Southern Baptist church here. I don't go there because the sign says Baptist, I go there because I believe my understanding of Gods word and the leading of the Holy Spirit tell me that's where I belong.
> Are some of you saying God sees it as sin if anyone says they are a Baptist , Catholic, Church of Christ etc?
> ...



Very well said, all of it.  



			
				SBG said:
			
		

> There are many denominations today that have left their roots so to speak. They have fallen into the snares of false teachers that teach false doctrine. If someone has yoked themselves to a Church that has lost its compass and is teaching doctrine contrary to the scriptures, they are indeed in sin.


SBG, good post as well


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## Derek (Mar 1, 2006)

Simply; I do not believe they are part of God's plan.  However, some good [as well as some damage] has been done by and through them.  Only God knows whether they have done more good than bad, and only He could and will say someday, which that is.
In some denominations, the Bishops, District Superintendents, etc. decide where and when the pastor will serve.  In others, like the Baptists, a board of deacons often makes those decisions.  Either way, it is done by men who quite often do not consult God.  Good or bad, I personally do not find a substantiating basis for this in the Bible.

Still, every church should have a board of directors, [elders], made up of praying, god-fearing men to assist the pastor so it does not become a cult.  Part of the definition of a cult is that it is usually run by one person who has no governing or consulting body over them.

The pastor, shepherd, servant of God and the people should be free to minister without fear of a controlling body which has the power to withhold his pay or fire him unless it be for illegal or immoral reasons of which he chose not to repent.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 1, 2006)

Derek, in your post I see the bottom line message that if we choose to go our own way and not God's, we suffer for it.

Much agreed.

I'd recommend every believer to seek thier leaders and ask the tough questions.  Those fellowships seeking to be right with God at all costs will be glad for the asking.


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## elfiii (Mar 1, 2006)

Chrisw said:
			
		

> I understand, but as blindhog stated, the denominational name or aspect has been thrown out as judgement as to say, if your not Baptist, Catholic or whatever, you dont have the truth. But IMO, the name on the door is only worth what it is written on, as long as we stay in the doctrine Jesus intended for us, we are going to be judged as Gods children and not by denomiational name.



Amen. I don't see how there is much difference in the Lord's Prayer whether its' prayed in a Baptist church, an Episcopal church, a Catholic church, a Church of God church or in a deer stand. There is one true God and only one Saviour and Messiah. How you get there is up to you, your road is yours, mine is mine. In the end, there is only one road that matters:

No man comes to the Father but through Me John 14:6

If your road is through a non-denominational church, its' no better or worse than mine. When the judgement day comes, I will be in heaven because I pray everyday for forgiveness of my sins, but more importantly, my soul is sealed through Holy Baptism, and I am washed in the Blood of the Lamb. No man can take that away from me.

Yours in Christ
elfiii


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## Spotlite (Mar 1, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> Amen. I don't see how there is much difference in the Lord's Prayer whether its' prayed in a Baptist church, an Episcopal church, a Catholic church, a Church of God church or in a deer stand. There is one true God and only one Saviour and Messiah. How you get there is up to you, your road is yours, mine is mine. In the end, there is only one road that matters:
> 
> No man comes to the Father but through Me John 14:6
> 
> ...




Amen Lee, good post


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## blindhog (Mar 1, 2006)

Vernon Holt said:
			
		

> Blindhog:  It may not meet with your approval, but I believe that scripture should be interpreted in light of its context.
> 
> Paul was concerned with the condition of the Church at Corinth which had fallen into a terrible state.  Their problems were many.  The Church had become worldly to the point where their behavior mirrowed the wicked city of Corinth.  Sexual immorality abounded.  Differences which arose in the Church were settled by lawsuits.  They made mockery of the Lords Supper.  Judiazers were advocating circumcism, and the list goes on.
> 
> ...



Well...Vernon I totally disagree with your viewpoint, as you stated I would.  NOT that I disagree with interpreting scripture within context, I do.
I have NEVER said nor implied God is not working through denominations.  His Word shall not return void.  He can work through us even with our errors.  Notice I said OUR.

I simply showed how God viewed a denominational "name" division.  In no way is this "out of context".
Look around at some statistics of divorce, pornography use, debt problems....in the churches!!  Find out the statistics on litigations by church members....

Carnality, brother.

You may prefer to wait for the Saviour for a judgement on assembly patterns, but He already gave us His written Word to go by now, so we don't have to wait.
I am not leaping.  I have the written Word to hold up as my example, not my persinal feelings.

Peace.


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## blindhog (Mar 1, 2006)

Derek said:
			
		

> Simply; I do not believe they are part of God's plan.  However, some good [as well as some damage] has been done by and through them.  Only God knows whether they have done more good than bad, and only He could and will say someday, which that is.
> In some denominations, the Bishops, District Superintendents, etc. decide where and when the pastor will serve.  In others, like the Baptists, a board of deacons often makes those decisions.  Either way, it is done by men who quite often do not consult God.  Good or bad, I personally do not find a substantiating basis for this in the Bible.
> 
> Still, every church should have a board of directors, [elders], made up of praying, god-fearing men to assist the pastor so it does not become a cult.  Part of the definition of a cult is that it is usually run by one person who has no governing or consulting body over them.
> ...



Amen, well said. 
 I don't think we see a pattern for the necessity of a "head pastor", but as God will enable an assembly as He sees fit.
But that is really another subject altogether.


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## blindhog (Mar 1, 2006)

elfiii said:
			
		

> Amen. I don't see how there is much difference in the Lord's Prayer whether its' prayed in a Baptist church, an Episcopal church, a Catholic church, a Church of God church or in a deer stand. There is one true God and only one Saviour and Messiah. How you get there is up to you, your road is yours, mine is mine. In the end, there is only one road that matters:
> 
> No man comes to the Father but through Me John 14:6
> 
> ...



AMEN!


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