# Legal bear question



## Rabun (Aug 15, 2017)

Was packing up to leave the lake last week and put a bag of garbage in the back of the truck to drop off on the way out.  Within ten minutes this sow climbed in the truck and grabbed it.  We ended up seeing a cub with her, which got me wondering how old/heavy you think this one is?  And what constitutes a "cub" given bears are legal at 75 pounds?  If momma has a "cub" with her that is over 75 pounds, are both animals legal, neither legal or what?  I understand that offspring can hang with momma bear for quite some time (correct?) and not sure where the line of legal falls.  Is a "cub" by definition under 75 lbs, or the fact it is hanging with momma bear make it a "cub" in the eyes of the law?  I also understand that legal and ethical can be two different things so interested in both.

From the regs..."STATEWIDE RESTRICTIONS
It is prohibited to kill a female bear with cub(s)
or bears under 75 pounds."


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## Dana Young (Aug 15, 2017)

most likely won't weigh 75 lbs. looks like A young boar. legs way to long. if he weighed over 75 lbs I'd say both would be legel


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## Rabun (Aug 15, 2017)

Dana Young said:


> most likely won't weigh 75 lbs. looks like A young boar. legs way to long. if he weighed over 75 lbs I'd say both would be legel



This is the pic of the momma bear...I assume she's a sow because we saw the cub off to the side.  A boar wouldn't have a cub with him would he?  I know this one is pretty young and lanky looking, but well over 75.  How young will a sow breed?


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## Dana Young (Aug 15, 2017)

some bears will be nearly 3 yrs old before they weigh 75 lbs. so I guess a sow could breed by that time. No, boars have been known to kill cubs. It may be a young sow with a cub, is the sow nursing the cub? after I took a better look at the pic the bear in the pic does appear to have breasts


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## Rabun (Aug 15, 2017)

Dana Young said:


> some bears will be nearly 3 yrs old before they weigh 75 lbs. so I guess a sow could breed by that time. No, boars have been known to kill cubs. It may be a young sow with a cub, is the sow nursing the cub? after I took a better look at the pic the bear in the pic does appear to have breasts



I'm not sure if she was nursing...it all happened quickly but the cub was pretty small.  How long/old do cubs typically nurse?  I've not seen that many bears..certainly not this close anyway.  Don't recall seeing any teets, but not sure I would if they were there.  Don't really like a momma and cubs hanging out around the house...concerned more about the dogs than us.  I know my border collie/shepard mix would take after them.


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## Killer Kyle (Aug 15, 2017)

I will tell you the answer to this question, verbatim, from DNR itself. A member from this forum, JBoggs, asked this exact question at the state regs meeting in Cumming this past spring. I sat by his side. He asked "what if the mother and cub(s) both are legal. The DNR LE rep at the meeting said "shoot the cub". He looked around at all the other DNR employees present and they all agreed. 
So to your question, shooting the sow is not legal even if her cub is. So shoot the cub.

I think the bottom line is that cubs stay with their mother until they are capable of surviving on their own. Bears require a high parental investment.  They are with their mother for a reason. If you shoot the cub, you kill one bear. But say the sow has three cubs. You kill her, and that might result in the death of four bears total rather than one. The young cubs likely won't survive the winter without her. 

So the final, legal from DNR regarding this scenario is "shoot the cub".

It comes off  sounding cruel, but it really is for the better.


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## Rabun (Aug 15, 2017)

Killer Kyle said:


> I will tell you the answer to this question, verbatim, from DNR itself. A member from this forum, JBoggs, asked this exact question at the state regs meeting in Cumming this past spring. I sat by his side. He asked "what if the mother and cub(s) both are legal. The DNR LE rep at the meeting said "shoot the cub". He looked around at all the other DNR employees present and they all agreed.
> So to your question, shooting the sow is not legal even if her cub is. So shoot the cub.
> 
> I think the bottom line is that cubs stay with their mother until they are capable of surviving on their own. Bears require a high parental investment.  They are with their mother for a reason. If you shoot the cub, you kill one bear. But say the sow has three cubs. You kill her, and that might result in the death of four bears total rather than one. The young cubs likely won't survive the winter without her.
> ...



Thank you...that makes perfect sense...very practical course of action. It's good to know the legality of the scenario and appreciate the background of the answer. One reason I brought up the ethical question...which is a personal decision...so under this scenario I would elect to keep hunting.  Now if it were a little piggy...hit the spit momma!

Thanks Killer


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## jbogg (Aug 15, 2017)

Kyle is absolutely correct as to the DNRs response.  The reality is female cubs will stay with their mothers for a full year longer than male cubs.  I took a buddy of mine one morning on the Chattahoochee rifle hunt last year and he saw a large sow with two cubs that he guessed were each over 100lbs.  At that stage the sow is no longer lactating and those two year olds would fend for themselves just fine.  At what point do they stop being considered cubs?  I guess the answer is when they are no longer by her side no matter their size.


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## tree cutter 08 (Aug 16, 2017)

About 15 year ago I seen something I haven't seen since. 6 bears together all 150 lb ball park and all nearly the exact same size. They came through single file on the trail about 5 yards apart. Anyone seen that before?


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## Buckman18 (Aug 16, 2017)

tree cutter 08 said:


> About 15 year ago I seen something I haven't seen since. 6 bears together all 150 lb ball park and all nearly the exact same size. They came through single file on the trail about 5 yards apart. Anyone seen that before?



In 2008, I was hunting in the snow in December and had 3 do that to me. They were smaller, all about 125 pounds. Really stood out in the snow. It was super cold, down in the teens.


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## jbogg (Aug 16, 2017)

tree cutter 08 said:


> About 15 year ago I seen something I haven't seen since. 6 bears together all 150 lb ball park and all nearly the exact same size. They came through single file on the trail about 5 yards apart. Anyone seen that before?



I just finished reading a couple of Ben Kilhams books on bear behavior.  He talks a lot about the lifelong bond between a mother bear and her female offspring. Their home ranges as adults will be fairly close together so they will overlap and come in to contact frequently. They are much more intelligent than most folks realize showing cooperation during lean mast years in sharing food sources.  Sows have been known to adapt the cubs of another female who may have abondoned her cub due to hunger, or for any number of reasons.  Treectter I'm guessing you witnessed a couple of generations of female bears from the same family group that happened to be together on that day.  Very cool!


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## The mtn man (Aug 16, 2017)

About 7-8 years ago, had a sow come in to me while calling a gobbler, she had 2 yearling cubs, about 20 pounds or so, and also had 2 older cubs around 80pounds, i guess. That was strange to me that she still had 2 liters of cubs. Probably 2 years difference in age.  I'm just guessing at their weights, the smaller two were very small, the older two looked to be about the size of a lab, the sow looked to be 200pounds or so, she was a biggun.


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## Joe Brandon (Aug 16, 2017)

If you you shoot the cub it would be wise to have another hunter with you and to keep your eyes open. These sows are extremely protective.


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## Rabun (Aug 16, 2017)

jbogg said:


> Kyle is absolutely correct as to the DNRs response.  The reality is female cubs will stay with their mothers for a full year longer than male cubs.  I took a buddy of mine one morning on the Chattahoochee rifle hunt last year and he saw a large sow with two cubs that he guessed were each over 100lbs.  At that stage the sow is no longer lactating and those two year olds would fend for themselves just fine.  At what point do they stop being considered cubs?  I guess the answer is when they are no longer by her side no matter their size.



Is it generally true that a bore will run off a sow's cubs (or kill them) when he wants to breed her?  From what I've read black bears have a two year reproductive cycle so it would make sense for cubs to be with momma for at least two years.  The more I learn about these creatures the more I am intrigued.  I could never bring myself to kill a cub...no matter it's size...if it's with momma.

Good information here...Thanks All!


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## HunterJoe24 (Aug 16, 2017)

Joe Brandon said:


> If you you shoot the cub it would be wise to have another hunter with you and to keep your eyes open. These sows are extremely protective.



Yep, nothing's meaner than a mama bear whose cub is either dead or in danger


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## CornStalker (Aug 31, 2017)

Buckman18 said:


> In 2008, I was hunting in the snow in December and had 3 do that to me. They were smaller, all about 125 pounds. Really stood out in the snow. It was super cold, down in the teens.



Buckman, I remember the fall 2008! I hunted/camped in November at Swallow Creek. Temps dropped to 14 degrees and never once got over 32 for about 3 days. That was my first year hunting bears. Miserable.


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## Coastie (Sep 17, 2017)

Rabun said:


> Thank you...that makes perfect sense...very practical course of action. It's good to know the legality of the scenario and appreciate the background of the answer. One reason I brought up the ethical question...which is a personal decision...so under this scenario I would elect to keep hunting.  Now if it were a little piggy...hit the spit momma!
> 
> Thanks Killer



Bears usually run the cubs off at about 16 months of age, that is not to say that some may allow them to hang around longer than that, but at 16 months, they will not be 75 pounds, usually a bit smaller. By the fall of that year they should have put on enough weight to make them legal but they typically will not be with the sow any longer. The way the lw is written, it doesn't make any difference how large the cub is, if the sow is in the company of a cub, she may not be killed. If the cubs os over 75 pounds it is fair game. Tomorrow, the sow is fair game.


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