# red dots ? any recomendations ?



## billy673 (Oct 25, 2009)

looking at the truglo gobble stopper and the bushnell red / green dot . whatta you guys think about these or what do you use ?


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## dawg2 (Oct 25, 2009)

Honestly: You do not need a red dot or green dot or any other "dot" scope for turkeys.  I use  Winchester pump and a bead and it works just fine.  The range is close enough.  I can see no need for "dots" on shotguns IMHO.  Save your money.


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## creekrocket (Oct 25, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> honestly: You do not need a red dot or green dot or any other "dot" scope for turkeys.  I use  winchester pump and a bead and it works just fine.  The range is close enough.  I can see no need for "dots" on shotguns imho.  Save your money.



x2....


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## gblrklr (Oct 25, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> Honestly: You do not need a red dot or green dot or any other "dot" scope for turkeys.  I use  Winchester pump and a bead and it works just fine.  The range is close enough.  I can see no need for "dots" on shotguns IMHO.  Save your money.





creekrocket said:


> x2....



Y'all probably don't NEED a lot of the stuff that you have either! 

I have shot a Burris Speed Dot for 8 or 10 years now and it has been great.  If I bought something new, I would look at some of the smaller type scopes like the Burris Fastfire 2 or the Docter.  I don't have any experience with either of the two scopes that you listed, but I'm sure they would be fine.  I have killed a bunch of turkeys with just a bead, but the red dot scope gives a little more precise aim that works well with the tight patterning choke/shell combinations that most of us are shooting.


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## creekrocket (Oct 25, 2009)

Billy673, that gun you just bought does -not -need -a -scope. If you want to spend some money, buy a few calls from the guys on this or other forums. Trust me, you dont need a scope for that badboy. I tell ya what..You buy a few calls from the guys here on this forum, go out this spring and jelly-up some heads, and let us know if you're still thinking abot putting a scope on the 'ole girl'


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## BOB_HARWELL (Oct 25, 2009)

I don't need 30+ Lamar Williams box calls, but I have a Burris Speed Dot on my turkey gun.  



                BOB

 PS- I don't need 50+ Billy Buice trumpet calls either.


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## Magnumdood (Oct 25, 2009)

Burris Fast Fire II
Bushnell Holo Sight
EOTech


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## Ricochet (Oct 26, 2009)

I have a Burris SpeedBead; I just need to get it on my shotgun.  Those fiber optic sights mess with my eyes, so a red dot scope makes life (aiming) much easier IMO.

http://www.burrisoptics.com/speedbead.html







Check out this thread for more about it:
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=270105


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## Brad C. (Oct 26, 2009)

Why don't some of you nay sayers let Billy decide what Billy needs are wants for that matter.

Billy, I would pass on the Tru Glo and get the Bushnell grn/red dot scope.  That's what I have on my 835.


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## rutandstrut (Oct 27, 2009)

billy673 said:


> looking at the truglo gobble stopper and the bushnell red / green dot . whatta you guys think about these or what do you use ?



Either will do the trick! Both will make you more accurate at longer range! Once you make up your mind send me a PM to see if I can save you some money buying one! I have a good source for Optics and other Hunting Equipment.


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## BOB_HARWELL (Oct 28, 2009)

Billy, A red dot will give you a much better sight picture.


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## Gaswamp (Oct 28, 2009)

love my Burris Fastfire.  Do I need it...No...But I love it.


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## Magnumdood (Oct 28, 2009)

*Burris FF II*

I put a Burris FF II on my daughter's turkey gun.  It weighs like an ounce and a half.  It automatically regulates the brightness of the aiming dot depending on the ambient light.  It comes with a plastic cover that snaps into place when moving from place to place, plus it saves on battery life.  The battery life length is something ridiculous.

What I really like about it is the automatic red-dot adjustment; my daughter turns it on and doesn't have to worry about anything from then on besides putting the dot on the turkey's neck.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Oct 29, 2009)

I agree with those who say you can do fine with just a bead sight - provided that you have excellent vision. That was all that I used until I was in my early 40s. Of course, I was using a gun with a factory full choke, so I had a bigger pattern than most hunters do today. I had 20-15 vision back then.

Then one year I missed a couple of easy shots. I was in the beginning stages of presbyopia where your close-in vision starts to go bad. If you don't have it now, just wait, you probably will. I put one of the high-visibility dot sights on my gun and that helped a lot on lining it up. This was the kind that just clamps on the vent rib, and has 1 red dot in the center and 2 green on each side. I used that about 10 years and would love to still be using it. I shot doves with this setup and it doesn't interfere at all with wingshooting.

But then one year I picked up the shotgun and I could see 9 dots instead of 3. My eyes were getting worse and I had to do something. Glasses don't help much - look thru the top part and you can see the turkey, but can't see the sights properly. Look thru the bottom part and you can see the sights but can't see the turkey. That's a good recipe for a miss.

I realized I had to do something, so I put a Bushnell Holosight XLP on it. It works very well and I can still be an efficient hunter by using it. I do have to be more careful of my setup and make sure that the turkey can't surprise me and get too close; I don't want to shoot at a moving target with this thing. The XLP is obsolete now and the model apparently gave a lot of trouble. I'll replace it with a Burris FF when it dies.

So how well can you see? I think that's the question you gotta answer before you decide on a sight.


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## ssm (Oct 29, 2009)

I have a Tasco propoint on my Binelli.  I also had a Tru Glo on an 870.  Using Red dots has helped me with my shooting,  I will miss one in a heart beat with just a bead on the end of a shot gun.  

Using a Red Dot allow you to keep both eyes open when you are following the turkey through the woods with the "dot" on him.  

I have a problem when I shoot a gun with just a bead on the end of the barrell of lifting my head up to see the turkey right before I pull the trigger.  If you are shooting a turkey at 40 yards, the bead blocks out the whole head, therefore you are lifting your head up and down to make sure you are still on him.   At least that is what I do.


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## BOB_HARWELL (Oct 29, 2009)

Aim at center of neck, even with a red dot.

             BOB


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## boparks (Nov 2, 2009)

Glad you asked about this Billy.  I'm going to get one of these suggestions for Mary and if my vison keeps on going down hill I'll need one as well


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## Gadget (Nov 2, 2009)

A red dot is the best all around sight for turkey hunting IMO.

 I've used and have shot turkeys with all kinds of sights, single bead, double bead, rifle style, ghost ring, scope, red dot, and reflex dot, went several years trying all kinds of new sights, never could settle on something I really liked until I got my Docter sights, been using them for about 6 yrs now. The Docter is a tubeless open reflex dot like the Burris fastfire mentioned above.



I have a Chinese copy of the Docter sight that's been siting in my safe for a few years collecting dust, send me a pm if your interested.


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## billy673 (Nov 2, 2009)

I looked at the eotech online and today at a gun shop, I think
I might go this route ... Eotech 512.A65 RT. !


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## Gadget (Nov 2, 2009)

That's a good one but it's big and heavy, If your gonna spend that kind of money then I would go with the open reflex style red dot like the Burris, Docter, or Trijicon, less than half the weight and less than half the size.


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## BOB_HARWELL (Nov 2, 2009)

Gadget, Are you getting lazy? If your scope or red dot are too heavy, put one less shell in the gun.
  My 20ga. M2 weighs about as much as 3, 3 1/2" shells.


                              BOB


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## Magnumdood (Nov 2, 2009)

BOB_HARWELL said:


> Gadget, Are you getting lazy? If your scope or red dot are too heavy, put one less shell in the gun.
> My 20ga. M2 weighs about as much as 3, 3 1/2" shells.
> 
> 
> BOB


lol


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## Gadget (Nov 2, 2009)

BOB_HARWELL said:


> Gadget, Are you getting lazy? If your scope or red dot are too heavy, put one less shell in the gun.
> My 20ga. M2 weighs about as much as 3, 3 1/2" shells.
> 
> 
> BOB




Who said mine was heavy?  the Docter weighs 0.9 ounces........... about as much as your pack of cigarettes ........ and I shoot 3" shells not 3 1/2.


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## billy673 (Nov 2, 2009)

Gadget said:


> A red dot is the best all around sight for turkey hunting IMO.
> 
> I've used and have shot turkeys with all kinds of sights, single bead, double bead, rifle style, ghost ring, scope, red dot, and reflex dot, went several years trying all kinds of new sights, never could settle on something I really liked until I got my Docter sights, been using them for about 6 yrs now. The Docter is a tubeless open reflex dot like the Burris fastfire mentioned above.
> 
> ...



looks like we were typing at the same time, what i like about the eotech is the camo, and the dot , surrounded by the bigger circle with the 4 slases or posts (?) , what i didnt care for was the batteries, 2 double a's , kinda lame.
just got home, gonna check online at the other types you mentioned


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## Gadget (Nov 2, 2009)

billy673 said:


> looks like we were typing at the same time, what i like about the eotech is the camo, and the dot , surrounded by the bigger circle with the 4 slases or posts (?) , what i didnt care for was the batteries, 2 double a's , kinda lame.
> just got home, gonna check online at the other types you mentioned




The eotech weighs 12 ounces without batteries, probably close to a 1 lb with the two AA's, that's heavy compared to the reflex sights that weigh 0.9 ounces. They take a single CR2032 watch battery that will last for years, mine lasted 3yrs before I changed them, and they were still working fine when I changed. They're supposed to last up to 5yrs in the Docter and the Burris.


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## billy673 (Nov 2, 2009)

Gadget said:


> The eotech weighs 12 ounces without batteries, probably close to a 1 lb with the two AA's, that's heavy compared to the reflex sights that weigh 0.9 ounces. They take a single CR2032 watch battery that will last for years, mine lasted 3yrs before I changed them, and they were still working fine when I changed. They're supposed to last up to 5yrs in the Docter and the Burris.


which model docter you using ? looks like the got 2 models ?
and the burris , lots of choices, speed dot or fastfire 2, or ?


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## Gadget (Nov 2, 2009)

billy673 said:


> which model docter you using ? looks like the got 2 models ?
> and the burris , lots of choices, speed dot or fastfire 2, or ?




You'll want the one with the smaller dot, 3.5 MOA with the Docter, 4 MOA with Burris. The smaller the number the smaller the dot.

If you decide on the Burris I recommend the Fastfire over the Speed Dot. The Speed Dot sits too low and will interfere with the bead and rib of your gun. With the Docter or the Burris Fastfire you'll want to order a Marlin 336 Burris base to use for the mount. You'll need to have you gun tapped for the base; if your gun is already tapped then your gun smith will only need to tap one hole. If your trying to decide between the two and money is not an issue then the Docter is definitely the way to go. I have on three occasions compared my Docter side by side with a friend's gun who had a Burris Speed Dot, you can see the difference. The optics are clearer and brighter with the Docter, it uses German glass; also, the dot is not only smaller but has less of a "halo" effect or double dot and it's brightness is better regulated. This is not just my opinion, everyone who compared them side by side agreed. The Docter is almost double the price so you'd expect it to have better components. You'll hear people on here comment how it's the same sight for half the price, until I compared them side by side and could see the differences I used to think the same thing, you usually get what you pay for and in this case it's no different.

Call and talk to the guy at Docterusa.com, he can tell you a lot more, he's over in West Palm Beach so you might be able to driver over and look at one first hand.


Here's what it looks like on a Benelli SBEII and Browning BPS


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## Gadget (Nov 2, 2009)

They look a lot bigger in the first pic, here you can see they're really tiny but give a great site picture.


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## BOB_HARWELL (Nov 2, 2009)

The one on the left has a gold dot, I thought they were red dots.

                                  BOB


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## Nitro (Nov 2, 2009)

I have a Docter and a Burris. The Docter is by far a better sight. However, I hunted with a Burris equipped Shotgun exclusively this past season and it worked fine.


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## billy673 (Nov 3, 2009)

what does it mean on the docter specs when it says "paralex free out to 40 yards" ?


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## Gadget (Nov 3, 2009)

billy673 said:


> what does it mean on the docter specs when it says "parallax free out to 40 yards" ?




It means that no matter where you put the dot while looking though the glass the point of aim(POA) and the point of impact(POI) will be the same out to 40yds. This is very important, cheap sights can have a lot of parallax, which can cause you to miss your target if you don't hold the dot in the exact same place on the lens every time. This is another thing the Docter beats the Burris on, I noticed more parallax with the Burris when I tested them side by side. If you put the gun in a vise and adjust the dot onto a target at 40yds then move your head to different angles thus moving the dot side to side and up and down at some point you will notice the dot starts to move off the target, that's parallax. Despite the claims by Burris and Docter I can detect parallax in both at 40yds, less with the Docter, and only when you move the dot to the outter edge of the glass. I've tested some cheap red dots that had it bad, all will have it to some degree, some a lot more than others; goes back to the comment I made above............. " you usually get what you pay for".


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 3, 2009)

I'd hate to have to find a gobblers head in that little window of a doctor site while he is standing in a small opening in some thick brush. Doctors make a good red dot for squirrels on a 22 handgun.


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## gblrklr (Nov 3, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I'd hate to have to find a gobblers head in that little window of a doctor site while he is standing in a small opening in some thick brush. Doctors make a good red dot for squirrels on a 22 handgun.



Shoot with both eyes open.  If your dominant eye is your shooting side, it will automatically pick up the dot in the sight.  That way, the field of view and depth perception are only limited by your own eyes.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 3, 2009)

I've shot a few coyotes and some targets with a sbe2 with a doctor mounted on it. On something that is moving around in thick cover I think a doctor (or similiar sized sight) is a major disadvantage on a shotgun compared to a larger red dot. 
Doctors are cool sights though. Got these a couple weeks ago. Carry shotgun for grouse and turkeys and a 22 for squirrels.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Nov 3, 2009)

Lots of good info on this thread. Wisturkeyhunter, I love the squirrel setup! I hunt them with a 10" Contender, but I've got a 3x9 Burris on it. You must have very good vision.

What do you use on your turkey gun? Looks like to me that the small dot on some of these sights might indeed cause problems in thick cover. The Holosight XLP has a dot that is surrounded by a circle; makes it pretty easy to center it on the target. I'm not sure if any of the other sights offer this kind of sight picture. But even with it, I had trouble getting on a couple of turkeys this past season as they walked thru thick saplings.

I'd love to take that sight off my gun and go back to a bead, but they are gonna have to improve refractive eye surgery techniques before it could ever happen.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 3, 2009)

Gadget said:


> ............. " you usually get what you pay for".


This is _really_ true with optics.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 3, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> I'd love to take that sight off my gun and go back to a bead, but they are gonna have to improve refractive eye surgery techniques before it could ever happen.


Preacher,

I had my eyes done 3 years ago.  I was far-sighted with a significant astigmatism.  My right eye was 20-50 and my left eye was 20-100.  Now, both eyes are 20-10.  Additionally, since my pupils dilate to 8mm at night (despite my age), my eye doc elected to put prosthetic lenses in both eyes that have an anti-reflective coating and helped with the vision improvement.  Before I had the surgery, I was running out of diopter adjustments on some scopes.  Now, I barely move the diopter adjustment; it just depends on the scope or binocular.


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## Gadget (Nov 3, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I've shot a few coyotes and some targets with a sbe2 with a doctor mounted on it. On something that is moving around in thick cover I think a doctor (or similiar sized sight) is a major disadvantage on a shotgun compared to a larger red dot.
> Doctors are cool sights though. Got these a couple weeks ago. Carry shotgun for grouse and turkeys and a 22 for squirrels.





Nice setup WTH, is that a Browning buckmark?



I haven't had a problem picking up target with my Docter while turkey hunting, not yet anyway, shoot with both eyes open, been hunting with it for about 6yrs now.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 3, 2009)

preacher-I use the double beads my shotgun came with and like it much don't see it changing any time soon. I've used fiber optic sights and beads, and red dots and nothing is as good as a double bead. 

gadget- yeah its a buckmark


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## Magnumdood (Nov 4, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> preacher-I use the double beads my shotgun came with and like it much don't see it changing any time soon. I've used fiber optic sights and beads, and red dots and nothing is as good as a double bead.
> 
> gadget- yeah its a buckmark


Youth is wasted on the young.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Nov 4, 2009)

>>>Youth is wasted on the young.<<<

Indeed. 

Glad you guys can see so well. I'd trade all my scopes, red dots, and other junk to have 2 good eyes again. 

Dood, glad the surgery worked so well for you. It wouldn't help me that much if I had it. They would set my right eye for distance and my left eye for reading, and the reading part would be lost in a few years. It wouldn't help me in lining up a sight, and I decided it wasn't worth the risk involved.

So I'll try to use technology to continue to hunt. Beats missing turkeys.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 4, 2009)

I see alot of guys in there upper 40's and beyond without optics and they are very succesful hunters. Last turkey my grandpa shot was 2 yrs ago when he at the young age of 74 and he didn't have anything cept beads his 20 gauge came with.  His eye sight is less than good. Point is if a person is familiar with there gun and knows how it shoots you don't need extra clutter on top of it.


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## rex upshaw (Nov 4, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Point is if a person is familiar with there gun and knows how it shoots you don't need extra clutter on top of it.



and i see no problem with someone putting all that "extra clutter" on their gun, if they feel it gives them the best opportunity at making a clean kill on a bird.  to each his own.  who really cares what someone chooses to use on their weapon of choice?  if someone uses a scope, red dot or something similar, i look at it as them being responsible, because they want to ensure a clean kill.


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## Gadget (Nov 4, 2009)

rex upshaw said:


> and i see no problem with someone putting all that "extra clutter" on their gun, if they feel it gives them the best opportunity at making a clean kill on a bird.  to each his own.  who really cares what someone chooses to use on their weapon of choice?  if someone uses a scope, red dot or something similar, i look at it as them being responsible, because they want to ensure a clean kill.



exactly........


If you wanna harp on someone harp on the 25% or more turkey hunters out there who don't even pattern and sight in their guns.


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## rex upshaw (Nov 4, 2009)

Gadget said:


> harp on the 25% or more turkey hunters out there who don't even pattern and sight in their guns.



exactly.  there are far more people who wound birds with guns that have not been patterned, then guys who are using red dots, or building loads that are capable of longer range shots.  you know that the guys who are building their own loads are doing actual testing and not just throwing something together and hoping for the best.  and the guys using red dots are doing so because it gives them more confidence and higher success rate.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 4, 2009)

I ain't harpin on anybody. Just was stating an opinion about doctor sights on shotguns, then got asked what I used.


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## rex upshaw (Nov 4, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I ain't harpin on anybody. Just was stating an opinion about doctor sights on shotguns, then got asked what I used.



not sure that he was speaking to you individually, but maybe to everyone as a whole.


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## Gadget (Nov 4, 2009)

rex upshaw said:


> not sure that he was speaking to you individually, but maybe to everyone as a whole.





True, that wasn't directed at you, was a generalization.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Nov 4, 2009)

>>>I see alot of guys in there upper 40's and beyond without optics and they are very succesful hunters. Last turkey my grandpa shot was 2 yrs ago when he at the young age of 74 and he didn't have anything cept beads his 20 gauge came with.  His eye sight is less than good. Point is if a person is familiar with there gun and knows how it shoots you don't need extra clutter on top of it.<<<<

I didn't need optics when I was in my upper 40s either. Now I am well past that age and I do need them if I want to be an ethical turkey hunter. Everybody has their own definition of what that means - to me, part of it is that I want to kill every turkey that I shoot. I could certainly still kill some turkeys every season without the holosight, but the odds of a cripple would go up tremendously. That's unacceptable to me if I can do anything about it. And I think I'm pretty familiar with my gun and can still do pretty well on a dove field; just not as good as I once was. And I'm not even as good once as I ever was. 

Congrats to your grandpa on his gobbler. My father hunted until he died at age 73, but he had quite a few misses his last decade of hunting. 

Like I said, if you can see good and can be deadly with a bead sight, then go for it and be thankful for the gift that God has given you. I used to have that same gift; now I try to compensate.

There's few things sadder than a wounded turkey, and anything that someone can do to avoid it is a good thing, imho.

Good hunting to all.


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## hawglips (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm still using double beads, but the eyes are going, and I've got a red dot on the shelf.   I may put it on this spring...


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## Magnumdood (Nov 4, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I see alot of guys in there upper 40's and beyond without optics and they are very succesful hunters. Last turkey my grandpa shot was 2 yrs ago when he at the young age of 74 and he didn't have anything cept beads his 20 gauge came with.  His eye sight is less than good. Point is if a person is familiar with there gun and knows how it shoots you don't need extra clutter on top of it.


What if I want that clutter on top of my gun Adam?  Same applies to TSS; I don't need TSS to kill a turkey, I just want to use it.


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## Gadget (Nov 4, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> >>>I see alot of guys in there upper 40's and beyond without optics and they are very succesful hunters. Last turkey my grandpa shot was 2 yrs ago when he at the young age of 74 and he didn't have anything cept beads his 20 gauge came with.  His eye sight is less than good. Point is if a person is familiar with there gun and knows how it shoots you don't need extra clutter on top of it.<<<<
> 
> I didn't need optics when I was in my upper 40s either. Now I am well past that age and I do need them if I want to be an ethical turkey hunter. Everybody has their own definition of what that means - to me, part of it is that I want to kill every turkey that I shoot. I could certainly still kill some turkeys every season without the holosight, but the odds of a cripple would go up tremendously. That's unacceptable to me if I can do anything about it. And I think I'm pretty familiar with my gun and can still do pretty well on a dove field; just not as good as I once was. And I'm not even as good once as I ever was.
> 
> ...




Very well said.........


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 4, 2009)

Magnumdood said:


> What if I want that clutter on top of my gun Adam?  Same applies to TSS; I don't need TSS to kill a turkey, I just want to use it.


Then use it. I don't care. I was just answering the questions asked to me.


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## billy673 (Nov 5, 2009)

heres one that i'm taking a liking to, a little on the heavy side, dont like that it runs on 2 aa batteries, played with one similar to it the other day (not camo version) and not convinced the battery compartment is water tight, i do like that its camo, rugged, and like the reticle withe the circle and the dot, going for $399 on optics planet

http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=35&cat=4eres

heres its lil brother with a couple better features, its smaller, lighter (not that much) , runs on 1 123 type battery with a more water tight compartment, little more expensive, but doesnt come in camo, $419 on optics planet

http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=28&cat=4eres


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## Gadget (Nov 5, 2009)

billy673 said:


> heres one that i'm taking a liking to, a little on the heavy side, dont like that it runs on 2 aa batteries, played with one similar to it the other day (not camo version) and not convinced the battery compartment is water tight, i do like that its camo, rugged, and like the reticle withe the circle and the dot, going for $399 on optics planet
> 
> http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=35&cat=4eres
> 
> ...





Since they both have the same eye relief and FOV I would opt for smaller and lighter and not worry about it not being camo, it won't make much difference, but if you really want it camo just send it out to get dipped.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 6, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I see alot of guys in there upper 40's and beyond without optics and they are very succesful hunters. Last turkey my grandpa shot was 2 yrs ago when he at the young age of 74 and he didn't have anything cept beads his 20 gauge came with.  His eye sight is less than good. Point is if a person is familiar with there gun and knows how it shoots you don't need extra clutter on top of it.


The real point you're making is once a person becomes familiar enough with their firearm that they no longer need sights, then even with bad eye-sight, that person no longer needs all that "extra clutter on top of it".  What you're talking about is instinct shooting, and it takes tens of thousands of rounds with a hand gun to become proficient at instinct shooting.  Although shotguns shoot multiple projectiles, we choke 'em down so tight when turkey hunting the shot string might as well be a slug until it passes 20 yards.  Since you grandpa's sight is less than good, he should have a scope or a red-dot on his shotgun, because I really doubt he's shot enough to be considered an accurate instinct shooter.  Instinct shooting requires tens of thousands of rounds shot correctly, supplemented by hours and hours of drawing and dry-firing.  How many turkeys did your grandpa miss before his last one?


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 7, 2009)

He's got a 3  bird streak before his last miss and that was a distance error he thought it was closer than it was. Thats the only turkey he's missed. He hasn't shot alot though. Its nothing to do with instinct shooting either. I still aim with my beads its just that I know exactly how my gun shoots with the beads as does he. 
p.s. Grouse hunters can shoot instictivly.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 7, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> He's got a 3  bird streak before his last miss and that was a distance error he thought it was closer than it was. Thats the only turkey he's missed. He hasn't shot alot though. Its nothing to do with instinct shooting either. I still aim with my beads its just that I know exactly how my gun shoots with the beads as does he.
> p.s. Grouse hunters can shoot instictivly.


The reason I said your grandpa was shooting instinctively is you said his vision was poor.  Since his vision is poor, I wondered if he could see both beads.  If he can't, then he's relying on his past use of the gun, or, instinctive shooting.  I know you're not shooting instinctively; you're very definitely aiming, using the two beads.


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 8, 2009)

Nothing "instinctive" about it.

If a shotgun fits you there is no need for two beads.....When using a bead I keep my target in focus put my bead in position and boom.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 8, 2009)

Wonder if Daniel Boone use instinct when he threw a hatchet?


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## dawg2 (Nov 8, 2009)

billy673 said:


> looking at the truglo gobble stopper and the bushnell red / green dot . whatta you guys think about these or what do you use ?





Brad C. said:


> Why don't some of you nay sayers let Billy decide what Billy needs are wants for that matter.
> 
> Billy, I would pass on the Tru Glo and get the Bushnell grn/red dot scope.  That's what I have on my 835.


First off, I wasn't being a naysayer if you were refering to me.  BUT, either way, read the BLUE above.  He asked a question and I gave him my honest opinion.  I do not use the sights and do not see a need for them with turkeys.  It is overkill in my opinion.  It is a scattergun...geez....

ALSO, depending on the range of the bird, you may miss when you aim that red dot.  You better try different ranges and know where you pattern and adjust the red dot up or down on your target accordingly.  Same applies with a rifle.


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## dawg2 (Nov 8, 2009)

hawglips said:


> I'm still using double beads, but the eyes are going, and I've got a red dot on the shelf.   I may put it on this spring...



That would be a good reason for someone to use one.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 8, 2009)

I fail to see how a red dot without magnification does anything to help with poor eye sight you aren't going to see the dot any better than a bead and its sure not easier finding a bird in a narrow window than over the top of a rib.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 8, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Nothing "instinctive" about it.
> 
> If a shotgun fits you there is no need for two beads.....When using a bead I keep my target in focus put my bead in poposition and boom.


Very intellectually dishonest Frank, but, I expect nothing more from you.  I admitted people with good eyesight, such as *wisturkeyhunter* are aiming using the beads.  I said it was people with poor sight, that can no longer focus on the bead(s), are "pointing" the shotgun, which is instinctive shooting.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 8, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Wonder if Daniel Boone use instinct when he threw a hatchet?


You've never been exposed to instinctive shooting in archery?  I've been through many, many hours of instinctive training with a pistol.  Archers who shoot instinctively shoot at a spot on the target.  It takes a lot of time and effort to become proficient at instinctive shooting.

And yes, Dan'l Boone was throwing his hatchet instinctively just as knife throwers are throwing instinctively.  Where's the sight??


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## Magnumdood (Nov 8, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> I fail to see how a red dot without magnification does anything to help with poor eye sight you aren't going to see the dot any better than a bead and its sure not easier finding a bird in a narrow window than over the top of a rib.


The better red dots are more than just a red dot sandwiched between two pieces if window pane.  The better ones use glass like that which would go in a scope, and actually clear your vision up some...even if you think you have good vision.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 8, 2009)

Pretty sure I could point a shotgun at a turkeys head with no thought of where the beads lay and kill a turkey pretty consistantly I know I hit flying pheasants with  consistancy (unless I get in a shooting slump) with no thought to the beads. Before you cry fowl cause of more open chokes a pheasant at 25 yards with a light modified can't be to much different than turkey at 40 with a turkey choke least not my patterns aren't that tight. I do think I aim with the 2 beads lined up but my beads automatically are lined up when my cheek hits the stock so the mid bead is probably not needed. I know my 20 gauge only had one bead and it worked. Piles of deer have been killed with 870's with no rib just a bead. Wonder how that worked?


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## Magnumdood (Nov 8, 2009)

wisturkeyhunter said:


> Pretty sure I could point a shotgun at a turkeys head with no thought of where the beads lay and kill a turkey pretty consistantly I know I hit flying pheasants with  consistancy (unless I get in a shooting slump) with no thought to the beads. Before you cry fowl cause of more open chokes a pheasant at 25 yards with a light modified can't be to much different than turkey at 40 with a turkey choke least not my patterns aren't that tight. I do think I aim with the 2 beads lined up but my beads automatically are lined up when my cheek hits the stock so the mid bead is probably not needed. I know my 20 gauge only had one bead and it worked. Piles of deer have been killed with 870's with no rib just a bead. Wonder how that worked?


I don't think any of that is instinctive shooting.  If all they had was a bead, that's what they aimed with.  We all know you don't aim at flying birds, you "point" the shotgun and the more open choke does it's thing.  Shotgunning 101; I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 8, 2009)

dawg2 said it best..."It is a scattergun...geez"

I've used both double and single beads....the double beads are great for guys that get nervous and need a check list when a turkey comes in......such as "head down, beads lined up".

dOOd a bow can be shot "instinctive" a knife or tomahawk thrown "instinctive"

Shotguns are not shot "instinctive" in wingshooting...the bead is there and is used more as a reference point instead of an actual aiming device.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 8, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Shotguns are not shot "instinctive" in wingshooting...the bead is there and is used more as a reference point instead of an actual aiming device.


I wasn’t clear enough and that’s on me.  I said you point a shotgun when wing-shooting.  Pointing down the barrel and acquiring the bead of course is aiming.  I was wrong.  Instinctive shooting with a pistol can encompass many positions, but they all have one thing in common; you don’t acquire the sights or any part of the pistol to use as a sighting reference.  It’s not such a rare phenomenon; every kid that plays basketball is learning to shoot baskets instinctively.  Quarterbacks throw the ball instinctively.

This whole discussion began when I opined that if *wisturkeyhunter’s* grandpa couldn’t see the sights he was shooting instinctively.  I’ll have to back the truck up and admit I’m wrong.  His grandpa may not be able to see the bead clearly, but he can look down the barrel and point the shotgun at the turkey.  So, his grandpa is still aiming, he’s just a little handicapped by not being able to see the beads clearly.  Open his choke up (if he doesn’t already hunt that way) and call the birds in closer.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 8, 2009)

He can see a bead fine. Just as I'd bet anyone posting on this forum can. His eye sight just ain't the best. Seeing a white bead on the end of a rib ain't any harder than seeing a red dot in a narrow window of glass and from my experience with red dots a bead is easier without the mechanical failures that can happen. Remember dood I've used em on shotguns and 22 pistols before I know how they work. I think alot of turkey hunters could benefit from opening there chokes up a bit and calling birds in closer. Think I'm going try a little more open choke in my 870 just cause the .660 carlson's is not needed for the woods I hunt.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Nov 9, 2009)

>>>I fail to see how a red dot without magnification does anything to help with poor eye sight you aren't going to see the dot any better than a bead and its sure not easier finding a bird in a narrow window than over the top of a rib.<<<

That had to have been written by somebody with excellent vision. When you get like me, and have presbyopia, then you can't focus on objects that are close. I cannot clearly focus on a bead sight, even if it is a high-visibility bead. I see 9 beads instead of 3 with the high-viz, and see 3 beads instead of 1 with the standard bead.

Glasses can correct the up-close vision and I can see the beads perfectly. Unfortunately, that same lens blurs anything in the distance, like a turkey. I also have problems now with distance vision, so I have to wear bifocals. I can see the turkey fine with the top part, but can't focus on the bead. I can see the bead fine thru the bottom part, but can't focus on the turkey. Some people try to line up their bifocals just right and look at the bead with the bottom part and the turkey with the top. That seems pretty difficult to me.

I find it much more efficient to use a holographic sight. I look at the turkey with both eyes open, and can see him clearly thru the top part of my glasses. The red dot of the holograph is also clear, and its no problem to put it on the turkey. 

I don't know how to explain it any better than this. 

Another option for me would be to take the beads off my gun and just point it at the turkey and shoot him like you would flying. A big problem with that approach is that its usually impossible to have good fundamentals in your footwork. I'm often in a cramped position that I've been in for hours, nearly always sitting, and the turkey is seldom in a perfect position. All of these things can add up to a miss or a cripple.

I will stick to my holographic sight.


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## BOB_HARWELL (Nov 9, 2009)

PCP, That's why I use a red dot. I wear tri-focals. Birthdays,,,,,,,,,,,,gotta'luv um.

                        BOB


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## Nitro (Nov 9, 2009)

My only comment is this- use whatever works for you to KILL that ol Wrinkle headed Nasty Longbearded Gobbler.

I use a Red Dot on my dedicated Turkey guns. It has yet to fail me.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Nov 9, 2009)

Bob, those birthdays sure beat the alternative. 

Nitro, agree 100%. As I've said, anything that helps hunters make clean kills and avoid cripples is a good thing, as far as I'm concerned.

Here's something on the sight that I use. A lot of this is hype, but maybe it will help somebody understand better:

>>>If you're looking for a fast sight, you'll be hard-pressed to find one quicker than the Bushnell® HOLOsight.® Lauded by experts as one of the most innovative gunsights ever made, the advanced holographic technology found within our HOLOsight lets you bead up on a target as quickly as you can raise your gun. It's that fast. HOLOsight projects the appearance of an illuminated crosshair 50 yards in front of your gun, yet no forward light is projected. Sight from any distance behind the gun without taking both eyes off of the target. Offers unlimited eye relief and an unlimited field-of-view.<<<

I don't know exactly how it works, but I know this - I can see that projection just fine. Mine is a center dot surrounded by a circle, and it is clear whether looking thru the top part of my glasses or even without glasses. If I get the gun too low on my shoulder, and look thru the bottom part of the glasses, then the dot and circle become distorted. 

For me, its the best solution I've found for aging eyes.


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## Nitro (Nov 9, 2009)

PCP, the Holo sight is jam up. My buddy John has used his to good effect the last 10 years or so. He won't hunt with anything else. I like the smaller sized Docter or Burris sights. They are fast and accurate. 

He and I both have enviable records of accurate kills with our Red dot sights.....they work for us. Like John says- " put the red on his head and he is DEAD".....

One thing I do notice- many of the folks here talk a big game, until it's time to put up photos of themselves with Dead Gobblers........speaks volumes to me.

I hunt Turkeys because it is still fun( and I like to knock their beaks off). 

 My mentor, the late, great killer of Longbeards Cliff Edwards stated it best - "we are not going out there to take Prisoners"......


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## Magnumdood (Nov 9, 2009)

Nitro said:


> One thing I do notice-


The ONLY thing you notice.



Nitro said:


> many of the folks here talk a big game, until it's time to put up photos of themselves with Dead Gobblers........speaks volumes to me.


Build another sanctimony wing on your library.


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## boparks (Nov 10, 2009)

I agree that you do what you're comfortable and confident with and provides for better accuracy.
My dad has to use a Red Dot. He missed a couple of birds a few years ago and I stuck one on his gun and he does much better.

I'm having a problem focusing on my rear and forward sight in low light and can tell it will get worse and I'll be using one or something besides mny current set up. 

From beginning to end most have differing opinions on most aspects regarding turkey hunting. From beads to Red Dots, from run and gun to sit and wait, from calling aggressivly to soft and easy.  From shooting over at 40 yards or not. From using decoys or leaving them at home. 

To me to each his own and I don't make judgements and will respect that everyone enjoys and goes about this their own way. I wouldn't for a minute think that my style should be imposed on anyone or there's only one way to do this.


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 10, 2009)

Maybe you tWo could swap photos of dead turkeys ?


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## Magnumdood (Nov 10, 2009)

Maybe you two could...


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## Arrow3 (Nov 10, 2009)

Alright now....Lets get back on topic....


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## Magnumdood (Nov 10, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> I don't know exactly how it works, but I know this - I can see that projection just fine. Mine is a center dot surrounded by a circle, and it is clear whether looking thru the top part of my glasses or even without glasses. If I get the gun too low on my shoulder, and look thru the bottom part of the glasses, then the dot and circle become distorted.
> 
> For me, its the best solution I've found for aging eyes.


Another thing I haven't seen mentioned, is, if you have to shoot from a contorted position, or, shoot wrong-sided, as long as you can put the dot on the gobbler's head that's where the shot is going.


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 11, 2009)

If you're shooting long range with super TSS shot does the size of the dOt block out the turkeys head at say 80 or 90 yards ?


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## MKW (Nov 11, 2009)

*...*



Turkey Comander said:


> If you're shooting long range with super TSS shot does the size of the dOt block out the turkeys head at say 80 or 90 yards ?



 

Mike


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

Man, you are easily amused Mike. 

Uh, no Turkey Comander, my EOTech model has a 1 MOA dot, which subtends about 1.04" at 100 yards.  So, when I'm shooting my super tungsten super shot at the bird at 80 or 90 yards the dot should subtend between 0.83" and 0.936".  That should center perfectly on the bird's head...BOOM...lights out, and happy Thanksgiving! 

But, in all fairness, I plan on limiting my shots to 70 yards.


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## wisturkeyhunter (Nov 11, 2009)

Guessing dood has a corn pile 70 yards from his computer chair.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

Tsk Tsk, guessing just gets you in trouble Adam.


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## poorcountrypreacher (Nov 11, 2009)

>>>>If you're shooting long range with super TSS shot does the size of the dOt block out the turkeys head at say 80 or 90 yards ?<<<

TC, I don't think you will find any significant difference in shooting at ranges under 100 yards than you would with the rifle scope that you use. I can't tell what kind yours is in the picture. Is it a Burris? Looks like about a 3x9x40. Do you set it all the way up to 9 power, or leave it on 3? 

http://www.nitrocompany.com/images/fcox2.jpg


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## rex upshaw (Nov 11, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> >>>>If you're shooting long range with super TSS shot does the size of the dOt block out the turkeys head at say 80 or 90 yards ?<<<
> 
> TC, I don't think you will find any significant difference in shooting at ranges under 100 yards than you would with the rifle scope that you use. I can't tell what kind yours is in the picture. Is it a Burris? Looks like about a 3x9x40. Do you set it all the way up to 9 power, or leave it on 3?
> 
> http://www.nitrocompany.com/images/fcox2.jpg


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> >>>>If you're shooting long range with super TSS shot does the size of the dOt block out the turkeys head at say 80 or 90 yards ?<<<
> 
> TC, I don't think you will find any significant difference in shooting at ranges under 100 yards than you would with the rifle scope that you use. I can't tell what kind yours is in the picture. Is it a Burris? Looks like about a 3x9x40. Do you set it all the way up to 9 power, or leave it on 3?
> 
> http://www.nitrocompany.com/images/fcox2.jpg


For Heaven's sake Frank, why do _*you*_ need a scope?


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 11, 2009)

Actually the scope I used 'almost one season' was a Swarovski 1x4 with a dangerous game reticle....didn't take me long to figure out a scope wasn't for me while turkey hunting.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Actually the scope I used 'almost one season' was a Swarovski 1x4 with a dangerous game reticle....didn't take me long to figure out a scope wasn't for me while turkey hunting.


Wow.

I actually agree with you on something.  I don't like scopes while turkey hunting.  I tried one for two non-consecutive seasons.  Can't pick up what's going on around me when I'm focusing on the reticle.  

That isn't a problem with the good red-dots and holo-sights.  You shoot with both eyes open.  The aiming reticle floats out there like a heads up display...when it settles on the turkey's head drop the hammer.


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## Gadget (Nov 11, 2009)

poorcountrypreacher said:


> >>>>If you're shooting long range with super TSS shot does the size of the dOt block out the turkeys head at say 80 or 90 yards ?<<<
> 
> TC, I don't think you will find any significant difference in shooting at ranges under 100 yards than you would with the rifle scope that you use. I can't tell what kind yours is in the picture. Is it a Burris? Looks like about a 3x9x40. Do you set it all the way up to 9 power, or leave it on 3?
> 
> http://www.nitrocompany.com/images/fcox2.jpg





 that's funny right there.


My question is did you start using the scope before or after crippling all those turkey?


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

dawg2 said:


> First off, I wasn't being a naysayer if you were refering to me.  BUT, either way, read the BLUE above.  He asked a question and I gave him my honest opinion. * I do not use the sights and do not see a need for them with turkeys.  It is overkill in my opinion.  *It is a scattergun...geez....
> 
> *ALSO, depending on the range of the bird, you may miss when you aim that red dot.*  You better try different ranges and know where you pattern and adjust the red dot up or down on your target accordingly.  Same applies with a rifle.


You don’t use sights?  Do you just point the barrel in the general direction of the turkey?  Are you shooting a 20 gauge or a 12 gauge…10 gauge?  Do you choke it down, or just use cylinder bore?
By what kind of logic do reconcile the *BLUE* statement and the *RED* statement?  You can hit turkeys without using any sights, yet hunters who seek to refine their aim, and be more reliable in where their pattern hits may miss.  Could you please explain that?


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 12, 2009)

Gadget said:


> that's funny right there.
> 
> 
> My question is did you start using the scope before or after crippling all those turkey?



Gadget.....is this not harrassing me, after you've made this comment about 10 times I think it is....

I made the comment about missing turkeys to make a point sorry you are so wrapped up in yourself to see it.

I guess you never missed a turkey ?


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## Gadget (Nov 12, 2009)

Turkey Comander said:


> Gadget.....is this not harrassing me, after you've made this comment about 10 times I think it is....
> 
> I made the comment about missing turkeys to make a point sorry you are so wrapped up in yourself to see it.
> 
> I guess you never missed a turkey ?






Frank, show me where I made that comment just ONE other time!; I don't believe that I have; in all fairness......... I got a good laugh outta the dot covering the gobblers head at 90yds too............


Yes, you guessed right...........I'VE NEVER MISSED A TURKEY......!!!!!!!       ........... ahh, that's a good sig line, maybe I should add that.


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## Gadget (Nov 12, 2009)

There.........how's that.


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## Newman (Nov 12, 2009)

Me thinks now that you've put that in you sig- you've pretty much jinxed yourself this season LOL


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## Gadget (Nov 12, 2009)

Newman said:


> Me thinks now that you've put that in you sig- you've pretty much jinxed yourself this season LOL





Well there's a difference between "missing" and "wounding" and while it's true, "I believe", I have never missed a turkey, I have in fact wounded a few that I did not recover, the last being several years back while shooting Winchester Supreme HV #5 lead and using a bead type sight. I think the vast majority of Turkey that people claim to have "missed" were actually wounded or crippled to some degree.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 12, 2009)

*Post #101, REPLY #100*

There will be 101 posts counting this one, but the board only shows 99, because those are replies.  This thread deserved 100 replies!


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## Brad C. (Nov 14, 2009)

A dot scope will allow you to center your pattern.  I have found that when switching from lead to Hevi-13 loads, that the gun may shoot off a tad more than it does with lead.  Some of it may actually be in the choke.  But I like the fact that where the dot goes so does the center of my pattern.  It beats aiming low and left or high and to the right, or any other combination with a bead on the end of the barrel that isn't shooting deadnut.


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## ditchwitch (Nov 14, 2009)

Ya all would argue on how to carry a dead bird too wood't ya.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 14, 2009)

Brad C. said:


> A dot scope will allow you to center your pattern.  I have found that when switching from lead to Hevi-13 loads, that the gun may shoot off a tad more than it does with lead.  Some of it may actually be in the choke.  But I like the fact that where the dot goes so does the center of my pattern.  It beats aiming low and left or high and to the right, or any other combination with a bead on the end of the barrel that isn't shooting deadnut.



Perzakly!


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## billy673 (Nov 14, 2009)

Brad C. said:


> A dot scope will allow you to center your pattern.  I have found that when switching from lead to Hevi-13 loads, that the gun may shoot off a tad more than it does with lead.  Some of it may actually be in the choke.  But I like the fact that where the dot goes so does the center of my pattern.  It beats aiming low and left or high and to the right, or any other combination with a bead on the end of the barrel that isn't shooting deadnut.


good point, looking foward to putting a red dot on my mossberg


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## billy673 (Jan 25, 2010)

billy673 said:


> heres one that i'm taking a liking to, a little on the heavy side, dont like that it runs on 2 aa batteries, played with one similar to it the other day (not camo version) and not convinced the battery compartment is water tight, i do like that its camo, rugged, and like the reticle withe the circle and the dot, going for $399 on optics planet
> 
> http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=35&cat=4eres
> 
> ...



got it today !! i'll let ya know how it works !!


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