# Customs, traditions, moral values and rules of etiquette...



## GeauxLSU (Dec 1, 2004)

While is starts off bit tenuous, I must say, I know what he's talking about...    
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil

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http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20041201.shtml

Janet Jackson's "wardrobe malfunction," Nicollette Sheridan's towel malfunction and naked leap into the arms of Philadelphia Eagles wide receiver Terrell Owens in a promotion before ABC's "Monday Night Football," and the recent Detroit Pistons/Indiana Pacers game melee are just the most recent signs of a new culture that has emerged among Americans, and it's just the tip of the iceberg. 

 Years ago, the lowest of lowdown men wouldn't use the kind of language that's routinely used today not only in the presence of women but often to women. To see men sitting while a woman was standing on a public conveyance used to be unthinkable. Children addressing adults by their first name was also unthinkable, not to mention the use of foul language in the presence of or to adults. How about guys and girls walking down the street whilst the guy has his hand in the girl's rear pocket? 

 What might explain the differences in behavior today versus yesteryear? A significant part of the explanation is seen by recognizing that society's first line of defense is not the law but customs, traditions and moral values. Customs, traditions and moral values are those important thou-shalt-nots such as: thou shalt not murder, shalt not steal, shalt not lie and cheat. They also include respect for parents, teachers and others in authority plus those courtesies one might read in Emily Post's rules of etiquette. 

 The importance of customs, traditions and moral values as a means of regulating behavior is that people behave themselves even if nobody's watching. There are not enough cops, and laws can never replace these restraints on personal conduct so as to produce a civilized society. At best, the police and the criminal justice system are the last desperate lines of defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see police, laws, and the criminal and civil justice systems as society's first line of defense. 

 For nearly a half-century, the nation's liberals, along with the education establishment, pseudo-intellectuals and the courts, have waged war on traditions, customs and moral values. Many in this generation have been counseled to believe that there are no moral absolutes. Instead, what's moral or immoral is a matter of convenience, personal opinion, or what is or is not criminal. 

 During the 1960s, the education establishment launched its agenda to undermine lessons children learned from their parents and the church with fads like "values clarification." So-called sex-education classes were simply indoctrination that sought to undermine family/church strictures against premarital sex. Lessons of abstinence were ridiculed, considered passe, and replaced with lessons about condoms, birth control pills and abortion. Further undermining of parental authority came with legal and extra-legal measures to assist teenage abortions with neither parental knowledge nor consent. 

 Customs, traditions, moral values and rules of etiquette, not laws and government regulations, are what make for a civilized society. These behavioral norms, mostly transmitted by example, word of mouth, and religious teachings, represent a body of wisdom distilled through ages of experience, trial and error, and looking at what works and what doesn't. 

 Customs, traditions and moral values have been discarded without an appreciation for the role they played in creating a civilized society, and now, we're paying the price. What's worse is that instead of a return to what worked, many of us fail to make the connection and insist "there ought to be a law." As such, it points to another failure of the so-called "great generation" -- the failure to transmit to their children what their parents transmitted to them.


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## PWalls (Dec 1, 2004)

I'm with you on this one Phil.

Lack of parental leadership and example at home. Lack of good Christian upbringing. Lack of taking stands for those values and traditions. Etc

All of that has lead to the state we are now in. Partial birth abortions, gay marriages/unions, etc.

It is a steep, smooth and slipperly slide that we as a nation are currently going down pretty fast.


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## Hunting Teacher (Dec 2, 2004)

Phil,
  I agree with everything here except who is the biggest responsible party.
It's easy to blame the media and teachers for the ills of our children.
The truth though is it's PARENTS that are the problem. "We" have allowed ourselves to believe the lies that the most important thing in life is "personal happiness." We are not committed to spiritual growth, morals, standards and the personal sacrafice it takes to raise our children in a way that they would see a life displayed that would cause them to follow that example into the next generation.
As an elementary school teacher for the last 20 years, I see first hand how this generation in reaping what it has sown.
  WE are the ones that won't stay married, choose to fill our lives with selfish practices that only(temporarily) make us "happy", watch garbage TV and  movies. Read filthy books, magazines and other trash. We are the ones who allow our kids to watch the junk on television because we are too busy to be bothered with real quality time with them. We are the ones who have chosen to let our kids talk back to teachers, coaches, and other adults. We are the ones who have taught them that the end justifies the means.
I'm sick of everyone looking for someone (thing) to blame our behavior and our kids behavior. 
If we want to know what's wrong in our society, most of us simply need to look in the mirror.  
Can you tell this is a hot button for me?! 
A very frustrated teacher,
Mitch


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## leadoff (Dec 2, 2004)

I read a book many years ago in a philosophy and religion course at Mercer titled _The Geography of Nowhere: Finding One's Self in the Postmodern World_ by Gary Eberle.  It touches a good bit on what you addressed in your post, Phil.  If I remember correctly, Eberle refers to the same loss of traditions and rituals and talks about modern society's loss of "center" in his discussions throughout the book.  Kind of a "have to know where you are coming from to know where you are going" idea.  I may have to go and dig that book up for some holiday reading!  

HuntinTeach, I am right there with you!  It is so easy to blame the educational system for the woes of society.  Although the educational system obviously has its flaws, parent involvement and concern are key factors in the overall picture that many seem to overlook.  Schools should educate, not indoctrinate.  Children should learn morals and discipline at home--schools should only educate and reinforce the discipline.  When the parents fail to keep up their end of the bargain, that's when things fall apart.


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## GeauxLSU (Dec 2, 2004)

Mitch,
The intent of posting was certainly not to cast blame on educators.  The guy touches on many things, that being one.  Since you address it specifically though, let me say these things.....
I have a two year old.  When he is of school age, his teachers are either going to despise the sight of me, or love me.  No in between I guarantee you.  I will be involved.  However, it is a fact, I think you will agree, that when you and I (making an assumption on your age) were in grade school, the teachers and the school systems were by and large ENFORCING what we were being taught at home.  There was much more of a societal constant in expectations regarding behavior.  Today that is simply not the case.  Most attempts today to denounce behavior that is out of the (increasingly undefined) norm are viewed as 'intolerance'.   
We all know the myriad of issues and here's my self admitted generalization about the education system and the same thing applies to Hollywood.  And please Mitch this is NOT a comment on you as individual, just a comment on what I believe is the issue with a vocal yet effective MINORITY of people in those two industries.  
Education often deals with 'theoretical' issues and as such I think some educators (generally college level) are simply out of touch with the real world.  'Theory' is their world and where they live and what they preach.  It is after all their career.  I mean, 'theoretically' we should all get along great and love each other and respect each other and there shouldn't be any crime, etc... etc...  As well all know, that's not the reality of life.   Theoretically we should not have to discipline our kids, they should just be able to be good citizens by following the RIGHT examples we lead, etc... etc... Again, that's not the real world.  So, some educators view anything outside the 'theoretical world' as ignorant, intolerant, oppressive, abusive, pick your derogatory term.  They are simply out of touch.  Though for different reasons, so is Hollywood.  
We are talking about two EXTREMELY powerful forces in the lives of children which like it or not (and I don't) do in fact have a big impact on our kids and society in general,  despite the best efforts of parents.   Being a parent today involves fending off more attacks and with less help, than it did a generation ago.  
We continue to tolerate more and more ridiculous assaults on Christianity specifically, and traditional family values in general, and yes, we are reaping what we sew.  When I see, what in retrospect, has been an almost unimagineable degradation in societal norms in my short life (39 years) I can not in my wildest dreams imagine what my son's world will be like when he's my age.    
Again, NO offense intended to you personally.  Education is one of the absolutely most noble professions and if my personal financial situation pans out as planned, one day I hope to be one.   Of course, the administration will likely promptly fire me for telling a kid he shouldn't curse or something...   
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## mpowell (Dec 2, 2004)

Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> As an elementary school teacher for the last 20 years, I see first hand how this generation in reaping what it has sown.



mitch--this is my 7th year teaching and i've taught high school and middle school.  all three schools i've taught at are at-risk schools.  i understand your frustrations, believe me!

i'm with you 100% about the parents.  it's not my job to raise these kids.  yeah, i do everything i can to instill values and morals into them, but without proper parental support it's an UPHILL battle.  and sadly, a losing battle.

when i call to discuss a child's behavior with parents, 9 times out of 10 they make excuses for the kid.  they say the kid does the SAME thing at home (ohh, shocker there) and that they can't control them.  wish we could knock some sense into these parents!

that's the one good thing about coaching.  if a kid gives me lip or an attitude, i cut them without a second thought.


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## Hunting Teacher (Dec 2, 2004)

Phil,
  I didn't mean to sound like I thought it was a personal attack. I'm a Christian parent first, then a teacher second. So I understand what was being said in the post. My point was it's time for people to quit passing the blame and "Cowboy up" to the root of the problem.
You obviously understand the difference by what you posted between educators and education theorist (A.K.A. social indoctrinists ),but most people unfortunately don't.
I resent to the extreme that educators like M Powel, Leadoff, and myself are lumped in the same group with the liberal education theorist, like some college professors, politicians etc. 
The idea that we would be blamed as being part of the catalist to the decay of our society is infuriating to say the least. We take what "parents" (For some I use the term loosely here.) bring to us, and then try as best we can with what we get.
   I guess I'm sensitive to this issue because so many "knowledgable" conservative politicians, pastors, and church members want to blame educators for the problems they see. 
  I can tell you for a fact that most teachers I know are very traditional in what they think the role of the parent should be in each child's life. 
We KNOW that studies show that the same gender parent is still the most influencial person in a child's life. Not peers, not teachers, not TV and so on.We want our job to be education, not socialization or indoctrination. 
It is not my job to teach morals, but I will enforce proper behavior in my classroom whether it's taught at home or not. 
  You see the difference between the teacher fighting for our kids every day, and some liberal teacher's union talking head spouting off about how we ought to be teaching that having two daddies is perfectly normal.
Way too many people, especially Christian leaders, put us all together.

   I still say though that each of us, need to guard what's happening in our own household ( which I know you are) before we go blaming society's problems on the media or education. Way too many of my kids can tell me all about one of these "reality" shows, HBO specials, and the latest R rated movie. It's not a teacher or a media mogul letting them watch.
Mitch


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## GeauxLSU (Dec 2, 2004)

Mitch,
I agree.  There are many agents causing the decline but they are doing it in unison, intentionally or unintentionally.  No doubt SOME parents can't abdicate their parental responsibilities fast enough and/or promote the degradation themselves and no doubt some teachers do the same.  All I'm trying to say is, the school used to be an existension and reinforcement of things taught in the home in many ways.  Now it's an assault on things taught in the home in many ways.  An amazing 180 in a very very short time.  I can't wait to try and explain to my child why prayer (something he will witness constantly at home and church) in school (which is supposed to have the 'right' answers) is such a big taboo for example.      I'm sure I'll wind up having to pay twice for my kid to go to school.  Pay with my taxes for a public school I probably won't want him to go to and pay again for a private school I probably won't really be able to afford.    
Likewise, I'm sure the TV will be turned off much more than when I was a kid and it was hardly on then (not saying that's a bad thing, just hate that it's a necessity).  


			
				Hunting Teacher said:
			
		

> I still say though that each of us, need to guard what's happening in our own household ( which I know you are) before we go blaming society's problems on the media or education. Way too many of my kids can tell me all about one of these "reality" shows, HBO specials, and the latest R rated movie. It's not a teacher or a media mogul letting them watch.
> Mitch


Amen.  
Hunt/fish safely,
Phil


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## PWalls (Dec 2, 2004)

I agree.

As a Christian parent or just as a parent if you will, I realize that my child's upbringing, morals, behaviors, etc are 100% my repsonsibility. I should not and do not rely on public school teachers to do that job for me. I thank them for whatever aid they give in that process, but when I send them to school, I expect them to get taught reading and writing and arithmatic. I do not expect a teacher to have to explain manners and such to my child.

Unfortunately, I think this view is becoming less and less common. My sister-in-law teaches 3rd grade at our public school. She has had kids tell her to go jump in the lake (literally) and that "my daddy says I don't have to do that" and such for simple and decent things like saying "thank you" and/or "yes ma'am".  She made a comment during Thanksgiving about how they have to go to "sensitivity" classes where the teachers are taught to be submissive and respect that child's "culture" which may or may not require them to have decent manners.

Too many sorry parents are just sending ill-mannered and undisciplined children to school to let the teachers handle them.

The other bad thing about that is my child cannot effectively learn due to disruptions from those children that keeps the teachers busy disciplining instead of teaching.


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## stumpman (Dec 2, 2004)

Yall pretty much covered this one lack of parenting and some teachers have givin up on some students it all boils down to the way you were raised my boys use there manners where ever they are and better respect there elders and it makes you as aparent feel good when you get compliments on how good your kids are we live in a small town and the teachers still sort of expect that the kids will get that bahind tore up when they are bad when i was a kid we couldnt even be in the bed room with our girl friends much less sit on the same side of the bed and we got our buts tore up at school and home if needed where did the good ole days go?


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## CAL (Dec 2, 2004)

All,
I for one feel everyones pain here on these subjects.In my case my kids came along in the late 60's.The time of the first transformation from segregation to intergration.Without further explination we all are familiar with that situation whether we lived it or read about it.
I also can understand paying for two educations as both of mine went to private school a full twelve years and now my grandchildren are having to follow suit.May I say I never have regretted one single penny spent on private school.I don't know about other schools but at our private school the children still have prayer and are deciplined also and our morals are as they were when I went to school in the 40's and 50's.Good morals and manners are never out of place.
My wife teaches in public school and I am very much aware of the regulations and disiplinary measures allowed.In my opinion they are too numerous and most are to dumb to mention.
She feels she has to teach morals and manners or a lot of her studients would never know any.They are not getting them at home at any rate.
I disagree about the media and movies being at fault.How can you as a parent teach one thing when your kids see the whole world doing different?This makes what you are trying to teach look wrong!
As a parent I can only say to keep on talking and keep on making your children do what is correct and one day you will see it has paid off!As a parent,I never knew whether I was talking too much or not enough!


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