# Anyone into the Hebrew roots of Christianity?



## BANDERSNATCH

Just wondering if there were any (or if you knew of any) Christians who were Torah-observant?

Bandy


----------



## hobbs27

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Just wondering if there were any (or if you knew of any) Christians who were Torah-observant?
> 
> Bandy



Sure.  All Jewish believers in Christ kept Torah.  Even circumcision.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

My bad, Hobbs...    I should qualify it a little more.    Anyone know of any non-Jewish Christians who are Torah-observant?


----------



## hobbs27

BANDERSNATCH said:


> My bad, Hobbs...    I should qualify it a little more.    Anyone know of any non-Jewish Christians who are Torah-observant?



OK.. No. Paul stood for the Gentiles on the subject of circumcision . Only the Jew's were to keep Torah, as long as it was possible to keep it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> OK.. No. Paul stood for the Gentiles on the subject of circumcision . Only the Jew's were to keep Torah, as long as it was possible to keep it.



I think you might have missed the OP'S question.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Just wondering if there were any (or if you knew of any) Christians who were Torah-observant?
> 
> Bandy



We've had a few on here a few years ago. I remember Lowjack and Skyking. I think we had one more on here as well. I have never met one personally. Some are Jews and some are Gentiles.

Georgia has a few  Messianic Believers in Yeshua (Jesus) Congregations;

http://www.messianiccovenant.com/united-states/georgia


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I think you might have missed the OP'S question.



Maybe so from your answer to it.  It appeared to be asking past tense,  since it's obvious no one can keep Torah today, I thought he was asking about scripture proof. 

So my answer really remains the same,  there's some rabbinic Judaism  practicing folks that claim to believe in Christ,  but no one can keep Torah without a temple.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> but no one can keep Torah without a temple.



so how did Daniel keep Torah?

How did all the jews keep Torah after Solomon's Temple was destroyed, until the 2nd Temple was rebuilt under Herod's rule?


----------



## hobbs27

Let me expound on my previous statement,  so as not to confuse.  Animal sacrifice was part of Torah.  It was to be done in the tabernacle of God.  The last Temple was the last known dwelling place of God per old Testament faith... Therefore they can no longer practice animal sacrifice without a temple... Hence they cannot practice Torah.

*Edit*   see I knew someone was going to question.. So this answer is for you Pappy.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> there's some rabbinic Judaism  practicing folks that claim to believe in Christ,



Isn't that all a Christian has to do? Believe in Christ? Does that mean all of the people who claim to believe in Christ but believe this requires repentance of sins  or works doesn't believe in Christ?

They don't just claim to believe in Christ, they do believe in Christ.
By making someone believe in Christ the same way you do is actually a type of legalism or works of and in itself.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't that all a Christian has to do? Believe in Christ? Does that mean all of the people who claim to believe in Christ but believe this requires repentance of sins  or works doesn't believe in Christ.
> 
> They don't just claim to believe in Christ, they do believe in Christ.
> By making someone believe in Christ the same way you do is actually a type of legalism or works of and in itself.



JWs say they believe in Christ... but then they say He was just an Angel ...does that mean they believe in the same Christ as I do.. Because it wasn't an Angel that redeemed me.


----------



## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> JWs say they believe in Christ... but then they say He was just an Angel ...does that mean they believe in the same Christ as I do.. Because it wasn't an Angel that redeemed me.



We believe;

in God as declared in the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) who is Echad (a compound unity) and eternally existent in three persons. 

in God’s Son — Messiah Yeshua — born of a virgin, His deity, sinless life, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension, and His future return in power and glory.

in God’s Holy spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) who in times past came upon our forefathers (such as Moses, David, and the Prophets) for a specific purpose and who now indwells and empowers believers to live a godly life. 

http://www.shalomaugusta.org/about-us/

You can't get much more Trinitarian that that.


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> We believe;
> 
> in God as declared in the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4) who is Echad (a compound unity) and eternally existent in three persons.
> 
> in God’s Son — Messiah Yeshua — born of a virgin, His deity, sinless life, atoning death, bodily resurrection, ascension, and His future return in power and glory.
> 
> in God’s Holy spirit (Ruach HaKodesh) who in times past came upon our forefathers (such as Moses, David, and the Prophets) for a specific purpose and who now indwells and empowers believers to live a godly life.
> 
> http://www.shalomaugusta.org/about-us/
> 
> You can't get much more Trinitarian that that.



 I can't remember what it was that we discussed in here once that got lowjack out of the Christianity camp,  but that doesnt mean he believes exactly as those posted... Maybe he'll stop in and comment himself I hate to misrepresent him,  but there was something about how he believed that was very strange to Christian fundamentals.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

hobbs27 said:


> Let me expound on my previous statement,  so as not to confuse.  Animal sacrifice was part of Torah.  It was to be done in the tabernacle of God.  The last Temple was the last known dwelling place of God per old Testament faith... Therefore they can no longer practice animal sacrifice without a temple... Hence they cannot practice Torah.
> 
> *Edit*   see I knew someone was going to question.. So this answer is for you Pappy.



this answer doesn't go with my question at all.  We all know that Daniel and all the prophets practiced the Torah from the time of the destruction of Solomon's Temple until the building of the 2nd Temple.  They did this without a Temple to sacrifice, and God had a relationship with them during those hundreds of years without a Temple.

I don't think your premise that they must sacrifice at a Temple to practice their religion is accurate.  Sure, they can't perform all the commands of the Torah now, but they can perform all possible.  

Did God honor the worship of Daniel, even though he wasn't traveling to Jerusalem to sacrifice, pay his Temple tax, or celebrate the feast that are commanded?  

Is is possible to practice Torah today without being able to hold each and every command.  I would think if it was possible then, it would be possible now.

Whether or not Torah practice is proper worship of God now is a totally different conversation.


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> this answer doesn't go with my question at all.  We all know that Daniel and all the prophets practiced the Torah from the time of the destruction of Solomon's Temple until the building of the 2nd Temple.  They did this without a Temple to sacrifice, and God had a relationship with them during those hundreds of years without a Temple.
> 
> I don't think your premise that they must sacrifice at a Temple to practice their religion is accurate.  Sure, they can't perform all the commands of the Torah now, but they can perform all possible.
> 
> Did God honor the worship of Daniel, even though he wasn't traveling to Jerusalem to sacrifice, pay his Temple tax, or celebrate the feast that are commanded?
> 
> Is is possible to practice Torah today without being able to hold each and every command.  I would think if it was possible then, it would be possible now.
> 
> Whether or not Torah practice is proper worship of God now is a totally different conversation.



The answer was not written in response to your question.  I noticed your response as soon as I posted,  so the edit was put in as response.. I simply expounded on my previous statement to clarify the reasoning. 

Yes,  prayer was substituted as sacrifice during the exile... But there was less than a hundred years between temple 1 and 2... Correct? 

  They were still Mosaic Jew's.  They still had a homeland,  they still had a priesthood,  they still had genealogy,  they still had a Messiah to come as Torah pointed to. 

 After the final destruction of the Temple,  they had no homeland 70ad to 1948ad..they don't have a priesthood,  they have no genealogical records,  and Torah that pointed to a coming Messiah is fulfilled. 

 So for a Christian to attempt to practice Torah is ludicrous to say the least. It's impossible...  And I'll leave it at that since we're getting away from the Op.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

They were in captivity for 490 years......so no, there was a bit more than 100 years with no Temple

I thought the entire purpose of the OP was to access whether or not there was any christian who attempted to practice Torah...

Maybe I need to go back and read the OP again


----------



## hobbs27

NE GA Pappy said:


> They were in captivity for 490 years......so no, there was a bit more than 100 years with no Temple
> 
> I thought the entire purpose of the OP was to access whether or not there was any christian who attempted to practice Torah...
> 
> Maybe I need to go back and read the OP again



From what I'm reading Solomons Temple was destroyed in 587... Zerubabbel dedicated the second temple around 516bc.
 Is that close to accurate or am I missing something?


----------



## NE GA Pappy

Zerubabbel did start construction then.  I was thinking of the northern kingdoms length of captivity.  my bad.

But even so, Torah practice went on for that period of time, in a foreign country, without a place to sacrifice or practice any of the feast or ceremonies while they were in captivity.  But the did practice Torah during those times, correct?

I agree that practicing of the Torah is not correct now, but to a practicing jew, who doesn't believe Messiah has already come, Torah is still the religion to follow. The religion of his fathers father.   Regardless of your believe system, they still hold that they have a priesthood, lineage and will institute Temple sacrifice as soon as they possibly can do so.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I think the OP might have been looking for present day Christians but the discussion could look back in time to when Jewish Christians practiced Torah. 

Did Paul practice Torah?


----------



## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I think the OP might have been looking for present day Christians but the discussion could look back in time to when Jewish Christians practiced Torah.
> 
> Did Paul practice Torah?




Acts 24:14 (NKJV) - "But this I confess to you, that according to the Way which they call a sect, so I worship the Elohim of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the Law and in the Prophets. 

Acts 25:8 - while he answered for himself, "Neither against the Law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I offended in anything at all."


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> I think the OP might have been looking for present day Christians but the discussion could look back in time to when Jewish Christians practiced Torah.
> 
> Did Paul practice Torah?



Sorry guys...just hard to stay logged in and reply.   Yes...I was wondering if any of you knew of any Christians that followed Torah...   Like me


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> The last Temple was the last known dwelling place of God per old Testament faith...



When did it change?

1Ki 8:27  "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!


1Ki 8:30  And listen to the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen in heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.

+/- half dozen more before the final one in the passage.

1Ki 8:49  then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause.

Then we could move on to Jerimiah, Isaiah, Psalms ...

Maybe it was just Solomon and the 5 or 6 people who looked to him for wisdom who did not believe that God dwelt in the temple.


----------



## hobbs27

hummerpoo said:


> When did it change?
> 
> 1Ki 8:27  "But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!
> 
> 
> 1Ki 8:30  And listen to the plea of your servant and of your people Israel, when they pray toward this place. And listen in heaven your dwelling place, and when you hear, forgive.
> 
> +/- half dozen more before the final one in the passage.
> 
> 1Ki 8:49  then hear in heaven your dwelling place their prayer and their plea, and maintain their cause.
> 
> Then we could move on to Jerimiah, Isaiah, Psalms ...
> 
> Maybe it was just Solomon and the 5 or 6 people who looked to him for wisdom who did not believe that God dwelt in the temple.





  What was done each year in atonement for the remission of sins on a temporary basis has now been accomplished in one sacrifice for all times.. By one high priest... And as God dwelled in the holiest place of the Temple , He now dwells in our bodies. 
 I'm not interested in explaining Temple and tabernacle dwelling of God with you right now,  but there's a good bit about it in Exodus,  and some NT explanations in Hebrews. 

1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?


----------



## hummerpoo

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not interested in explaining Temple and tabernacle dwelling of God with you right now,



We agree on that point.



> 1Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?



You might want to look into "Progressive Revelation" as it relates to understanding how God has revealed Himself to His People; and how it is a lessen to us as we assist our brothers and sisters in their understanding.  Paul tells the church at Corinth, and us, that he is using progressive revelation as he opens the passage in 1Cor. 3.

1Co 3:1  But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. 
1Co 3:2  I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, 
1Co 3:3  for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way?


----------



## Jonnyreb

Why would a christian observe books that defile Christianity? The Torah and the Talmud go hand in hand.

The Oral Torah also includes the Midrash, an explanation of the Written Torah, comprising both ethical and legal components. Much of this material is also contained in the Talmud.

http://www.talmudunmasked.com/chapter8.htm


----------



## NE GA Pappy

because the root of the christian belief system is the jewish belief system.  We don't practice the Torah, or the Talmud like the jews, but our savior was raised and lived a observant jew. He went to temple, he sacrificed at the appointed times, he observed jewish law, and he was completely and totally jewish.

Most of our traditions are traced back to the jewish constructor of our faith, and to the other jewish men who were the early leaders  of christians.  To understand most of the teachings of Christ and the apostles, you need to have a working knowledge of the jewish religion


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Geez, can't believe I missed out on all this discussion back then!   I must not have received any notifications and it appeared that no one had responded.     sorry that I - as the OP - never jumped back in here!     I'll have to check my notification settings.

Anyway, I was brought up standard churchianity.....saved when I was like 13, raised in an Assembly of God church.... but now I consider myself a "Torah-observant follower of Jesus Christ.     I consider it an absolute BLESSING BEYOND COMPARE that God has shown me that, although I'm already saved by faith, His desire is for me to show Him that I love Him by OBEYING HIM!   Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, not the blessings of obedience.    

Anyway....count me among the modern day Torah-observant crowd....


----------



## RegularJoe

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Just wondering if there were any (or if you knew of any) Christians who were Torah-observant?
> Bandy


Yup .... I try to be.  
For example, I am at the moment working my way thru the book, The Bible as History by Keller, cause it helps me do a better job of comprehending the Torah.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Then I guess from my thread on Obedience, perhaps to obey God is Torah keeping? I can see it as a way of helping stay obedient. 
The obedience part of it is New Testament. 

I've looked into it years ago. I do know that a lot of Christians that don't keep Torah still try and follow God's commandments. When I was growing up, the Ten Commandments were still a big part of my Church and indoctrination.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

I wouldn't say that, Art...    I know very few Christians that honor Sabbath (Friday night to Saturday night of not doing business or buying/selling) and who have given up their bacon.         Religion is okay with most people, until it interferes with their lifestyle.    As someone said earlier in this thread, we keep the commandments that we CAN keep....like the Jews did when they were in exile...


----------



## RegularJoe

There r a bawzillion laws/regs/rules presented in the Torah 
many of which are today just NOT taught/adhered to in Christian circles,
BUT that ARE clearly documented therein,
e.g., men not cutting facial hair, and so on and so forth.
I, personally, struggle with how do I go about following _all _of them ! ....
OR the related, more practical/realistic, commitment to properly prioritizing* them 
so that I can at least _try_ to put a consistent & responsible dent :- ) into some of 'em.

I remember years ago as a new Christian I assumed that Christ's 'new covenant' was such that there _must_ be a list somewhere of which O.T. laws were 'replaced' by the new covenant.
*Why?* ....
Cause today's 'church' follows' some and certainly not all.
I just figured there must be a list somewhere.
With this in mind I asked my pastor for 'the list.'
As I know you know, *ART* and *BANDER*, .... 
was told that there is no such list.
Hence .... my practice is to, 
a least 5 days a week, 
_try_ to be reading _some_ portion of The Bible 
(such that over time I keep processing thru the O.T. AND the N.T.) 
and while praying to The Almighty 
to amalgamate my awareness of both the O.T. and N.T. 
thru The Holy Spirit 
to grant me guidance on which laws to *prioritize the highest.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

RegularJoe said:


> There r a bawzillion laws/regs/rules presented in the Torah
> many of which are today just NOT taught/adhered to in Christian circles,
> BUT that ARE clearly documented therein,
> e.g., men not cutting facial hair, and so on and so forth.
> I, personally, struggle with how do I go about following _all _of them ! ....
> OR the related, more practical/realistic, commitment to properly prioritizing* them
> so that I can at least _try_ to put a consistent & responsible dent :- ) into some of 'em.
> 
> I remember years ago as a new Christian I assumed that Christ's 'new covenant' was such that there _must_ be a list somewhere of which O.T. laws were 'replaced' by the new covenant.
> *Why?* ....
> Cause today's 'church' follows' some and certainly not all.
> I just figured there must be a list somewhere.
> With this in mind I asked my pastor for 'the list.'
> As I know you know, *ART* and *BANDER*, ....
> was told that there is no such list.
> Hence .... my practice is to,
> a least 5 days a week,
> _try_ to be reading _some_ portion of The Bible
> (such that over time I keep processing thru the O.T. AND the N.T.)
> and while praying to The Almighty
> to amalgamate my awareness of both the O.T. and N.T.
> thru The Holy Spirit
> to grant me guidance on which laws to *prioritize the highest.



there is a list in the new testament, that Jesus gave us.

Love God
Love your neighbor.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Both the OT and NT says that it was easy to follow God's laws  (and there are only 617 total...not a bazillion  lol)   We have thousands of laws in America that we have to adhere to...but if doesn't affect our lives.     I John 5:3....This is how you show God love, by keeping His commandments...AND HIS COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT A BURDEN     From the beginning of the book to the end, God has always asked us to obey Him, and it was even prophecied that we would IN LATER DAYS return to obeying him from a circumcised heart.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I wouldn't say that, Art...    I know very few Christians that honor Sabbath (Friday night to Saturday night of not doing business or buying/selling) and who have given up their bacon.         Religion is okay with most people, until it interferes with their lifestyle.    As someone said earlier in this thread, we keep the commandments that we CAN keep....like the Jews did when they were in exile...



Should one go to synagogue on the Sabbath? I was thinking if one should rest on Sabbath that they should congregate on or before Sabbath.
Perhaps Friday night which I know is the start.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Nowhere is it commanded to go to church or synagogue on Sabbath.    We meet together on Saturday....but we don't have to.    The day is about rest and avoiding work


----------



## Artfuldodger

NE GA Pappy said:


> there is a list in the new testament, that Jesus gave us.
> 
> Love God
> Love your neighbor.



Is that really a new list though? I think those two were a part of the original Law. Perhaps Jesus is teaching what the greatest of the Law is.

Jesus then says;
"All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Nowhere is it commanded to go to church or synagogue on Sabbath.    We meet together on Saturday....but we don't have to.    The day is about rest and avoiding work



But if one has to work on Sabbath, that is an example of keeping the Laws that you can? Such as the captivity example.
Do you see it important not to go to restaurants on Sabbath? I grew up in a Baptist Church and we were taught not to go. We could not even go shopping. That if forced individuals to not keep the Sabbath holy by resting.

This is one of those things society has changed in my lifetime. We were once more like you in our beliefs. Women once covered their head in prayer even in most denominations. Women didn't teach men.

We once followed all of those "guidelines" in Paul's letters. Little by little and over time, we changed. Now we even sell Pumpkins on the Sabbath after Church services, on the Church property.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Perfectly said, Art!   Keep in mind, Jesus was God Himself standing there.    Jesus kept the Law perfectly, and asked us to keep it.   He kept GOD'S feasts, obeyed the Law, and was found perfect on the day of Passover.     Also, John tells us to emulate Christ, if we are in Him


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> But if one has to work on Sabbath, that is an example of keeping the Laws that you can? Such as the captivity example.
> Do you see it important not to go to restaurants on Sabbath? I grew up in a Baptist Church and we were taught no to. That if forced individuals to not keep the Sabbath holy by resting.
> 
> This is one of those things society has changed in my lifetime. We were once more like you in our beliefs. Women once covered their head in prayer even in most denominations. Women didn't teach men.



We don't go out to eat on Sabbath since we would be buying and making others work for us.     Many people have to work on Sabbath but, IMO, their heart should be to have a job where they can honor God's Sabbath.


----------



## Jabberwock

Artfuldodger said:


> Is that really a new list though? I think those two were a part of the original Law. Perhaps Jesus is teaching what the greatest of the Law is.
> 
> Jesus then says;
> "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


Jesus said that nothing would pass away from the law until heaven and earth pass away. (Matthew 5:18-19)


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

speaking of Sabbath, everyone in the NT kept Sabbath, and it is prophecied in Isaiah that we will all be worshipping on the Sabbath in the millennium.   Would be crazy to think God doesn't care about Sabbath now.


----------



## RegularJoe

NE GA Pappy said:


> there is a list in the new testament, that Jesus gave us.
> Love God
> Love your neighbor.


Thanks ... OK ... 
now do I simply do the above and pay no specific attention to The 10 Commandments??????  
I mebbe need a tad more guidance from you NE GA Pappy. Thx.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> We don't go out to eat on Sabbath since we would be buying and making others work for us.     Many people have to work on Sabbath but, IMO, their heart should be to have a job where they can honor God's Sabbath.


Perhaps it's their "captivity."


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

There's one group of people that the devil hates.   He doesn't hate Christians, he hates Christians that KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.    REV 12:17


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Keep in mind, Brothers, that we are all alike....believers in Jesus Christ the Messiah...and saved as long as we believe that.    I don't obey Him out of legalism or trying to earn something....I obey Him because I LOVE HIM!   Never felt as close to him as I do now!    John 14:21


----------



## RegularJoe

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I don't obey Him out of legalism or trying to earn something....I obey Him because I LOVE HIM!  John 14:21


Yup ... Love Him while my obedience also driven by gratitude for what He did for me ... NO STRINGS ATTACHED  .


----------



## hummerpoo

Just 2 ¢ , 'cause that's all it's worth.
Whether it's Torah, Wisdom, Prophets, Poetic, Gospels, Epistles, or the ones I forgot, if I think I see a conflict in my understanding, or unexplained priorities, or superseded commandments, I take it as an indication that I have to continue praying and studying.  i.e., going to church on Sat. or Sun: I figure that is the same, whether sundown Sat. or 10:45 Sun., as "assembling yourselves together" and not to be neglected.  To insist that it be accomplished by the calendar or clock is legalism, to ignore the commandment is antinomianism, so both are probably sinful.  As to working on the Sabbath, I think the commandment is consecrate time which is deliberately dedicated to God to the exclusion of worldly endeavors.  It's not whether you eat pork, it's that what we eat is not excluded from those things that we dedicate God, and achieve by God's grace.  Cover to cover, God's Word should be approached as Christ taught us. (Mat, 5:17-48).  Almost forgot, Paul told us how we could be obediently sinful (Rm. 14) — notice that the obedient sinfulness applies to both the mature and the immature (or at least that's the way I read it).

Or maybe God didn't get it right and had to change His mind about how His People would obey Him.


----------



## Israel

Things I have learned, things I haven't learned, things I do not want to learn. God knows them all.


----------



## NE GA Pappy

RegularJoe said:


> Thanks ... OK ...
> now do I simply do the above and pay no specific attention to The 10 Commandments??????
> I mebbe need a tad more guidance from you NE GA Pappy. Thx.



If you love God and Love your neighbor, you will automatically keep the 10.

Tell me one that you can break while loving God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as you love yourself


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

eating pork and shrimp


----------



## NE GA Pappy

BANDERSNATCH said:


> We don't go out to eat on Sabbath since we would be buying and making others work for us.     Many people have to work on Sabbath but, IMO, their heart should be to have a job where they can honor God's Sabbath.



Please explain Col 2:16 in regard to keeping the Sabbath and the other holy days


----------



## NE GA Pappy

BANDERSNATCH said:


> eating pork and shrimp


I forget... which of the 10 was that?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

NE GA Pappy said:


> I forget... which of the 10 was that?


a common misinterpretation.    Paul is telling people not to judge them FOR keeping holy days, and Sabbaths....    as you know, he kept the Law himself, and loved it.    

As to pork, it is part of God's commandments....the 617


----------



## NE GA Pappy

BANDERSNATCH said:


> a common misinterpretation.    Paul is telling people not to judge them FOR keeping holy days, and Sabbaths....    as you know, he kept the Law himself, and loved it.
> 
> As to pork, it is part of God's commandments....the 617


hmmm...

lets read a bit more of that and see...

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 

in Pappyese...

You were dead in your sins, but God cancelled the death warrant by nailing Christ to the cross. And since the death warrant is void, don't let anyone judge what you eat, drink, or the holy days or sabbaths you observe.  These were an example of what was to come, but are made real in Christ.
'

Do you interpret that differently?


and BTW... 3 times now I have limited my statement that Love covers the 10, not all the little things added by the priests.


----------



## hummerpoo

NE GA Pappy said:


> ...
> and BTW... 3 times now I have limited my statement that Love covers the 10, not all the little things added by the priests.





NE GA Pappy said:


> If you love God and Love your neighbor, you will automatically keep the 10.
> 
> Tell me one that you can break while loving God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as you love yourself


Yes, that is very important.

Another 2¢
In a little wider context, I have thought that:

THE COVENANT:
I will be your God and you will be my People.

THE LAW:
The Great Commandment.

AMENDMENT #1 is:
The Ten Commandments

ADDENDUM #1 is:
The Law and the Prophets.

Each level further describes the one above,
and failure at any level negates those above.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ya'll keep all that noise down. I am resting in Christ.


----------



## Jabberwock

NE GA Pappy said:


> hmmm...
> 
> lets read a bit more of that and see...
> 
> 13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross. 16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
> 
> in Pappyese...
> 
> You were dead in your sins, but God cancelled the death warrant by nailing Christ to the cross. And since the death warrant is void, don't let anyone judge what you eat, drink, or the holy days or sabbaths you observe.  These were an example of what was to come, but are made real in Christ.
> '
> 
> Do you interpret that differently?
> 
> 
> and BTW... 3 times now I have limited my statement that Love covers the 10, not all the little things added by the priests.


NE GA Pappy, 

I, like Bandy, believe that Paul was encouraging us to not let anyone judge us FOR keeping the sabbath, feast days, etc. I really don't like the NIV translation which I believe you quoted from there. I believe there is a small mistranslation there in verse 17. Where it says, "a shadow of things that were to come," the greek would read "a shadow of things that are LINGERING." The NKJV version does a pretty good job IMO and reads "to come." 

Keep in mind, that just a few verses prior, Paul warns us not to be "cheated" by the tradition of men rather than following Christ. Which we know, was the living Word. A perfect example of God's Word.


----------



## RegularJoe

NE GA Pappy said:


> If you love God and Love your neighbor, you will automatically keep the 10.
> Tell me one that you can break while loving God with your whole heart, and your neighbor as you love yourself


I am not challenging you .... I have simply requested your further elaboration and guidance.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Then in a way, aren't we all saying the same thing as what obedience is? Regardless of how many list one wants to use to spell it all out.
Love God and neighbor, the 10 Comandments or Torah?

Then theirs Paul's lists and rules. Women can't wear gold and pearls. Women can't teach men. Men can't have sex with men, etc. Men can't be effeminate.
Women must cover their heads to pray. I guess what I'm asking is why do we keep some of these things and not all of these things to show our obedience?
Jesus did tell us to obey his Father. That has to mean something. Otherwise you wouldn't be so many Christians upset about homosexuality. And I'm not just talking about Torah keepers.

So there has to be a list somewhere that we are basing our obedience on.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Then there will be a resurrection of the good and a resurrection of the evil. Not the saved and unsaved. Something, perhaps obedience that causes this separation.
Even if the fruits are from the Spirit, there is a difference.

Then we are back to salvation by grace. I've heard many say if the fruit ain't there, that's the proof they may not be saved.

There is still something missing from this narrative.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Jabberwock said:


> NE GA Pappy,
> 
> I, like Bandy, believe that Paul was encouraging us to not let anyone judge us FOR keeping the sabbath, feast days, etc. I really don't like the NIV translation which I believe you quoted from there. I believe there is a small mistranslation there in verse 17. Where it says, "a shadow of things that were to come," the greek would read "a shadow of things that are LINGERING." The NKJV version does a pretty good job IMO and reads "to come."
> 
> Keep in mind, that just a few verses prior, Paul warns us not to be "cheated" by the tradition of men rather than following Christ. Which we know, was the living Word. A perfect example of God's Word.



That would only make sense if it is referring to Christ's next coming. If these laws were still lingering. I can't find a greek definition other than "shadow" not  "shadow of things lingering."
Again if the law is "lingering" until Christ's return, it puts the verse out of context to the previous verses. The previous verses are leading up to Christ on the cross, not a future coming.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

IMO, it comes down to...."How do you define 'sin'"?    You may have your own opinion, but sin is defined in the bible....specifically by our boy, John.    I John 3:4 "sin is transgression of THE LAW".     You can debate what you think "the Law" means, but 1st century believers knew what John meant.    They also knew what John meant when he said that we show God love by keeping his commandments. (Sabbath is a great place to start with most Christians, since God said it would be forever, everyone we read about in the bible kept it all the way to the end of Acts - some 30 years after Jesus ascended - and Isaiah prophecies that all will keep Sabbath in the millennium)

How do you guys show God you love him?   Your own way?   By reading your bible or going to church for a few hours on Sunday?     Not trying to be offensive, just making sure that you know how our Father has asked us to show Him love (from the front of the book to the back.   He never changes)


----------



## Spineyman

BANDERSNATCH said:


> IMO, it comes down to...."How do you define 'sin'"?    You may have your own opinion, but sin is defined in the bible....specifically by our boy, John.    I John 3:4 "sin is transgression of THE LAW".     You can debate what you think "the Law" means, but 1st century believers knew what John meant.    They also knew what John meant when he said that we show God love by keeping his commandments. (Sabbath is a great place to start with most Christians, since God said it would be forever, everyone we read about in the bible kept it all the way to the end of Acts - some 30 years after Jesus ascended - and Isaiah prophecies that all will keep Sabbath in the millennium)
> 
> How do you guys show God you love him?   Your own way?   By reading your bible or going to church for a few hours on Sunday?     Not trying to be offensive, just making sure that you know how our Father has asked us to show Him love (from the front of the book to the back.   He never changes)


You are trying to add the Law to Jesus. Jesus took our place because we are not able to keep the law perfectly.

* Romans 8:1-9  *
8 _There is_ therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  2 *For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. * 3 *For what the law could not do* in that it was weak through the flesh, *God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:* *He condemned sin in the flesh,  4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. * 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those _who live_ according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  6 For to be carnally minded _is_ death, but to be spiritually minded _is_ life and peace.  7 Because the carnal mind _is_ enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  10 And if Christ _is_ in you, the body _is_ dead because of sin, but the Spirit _is_ life because of righteousness.  11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Spineyman said:


> You are trying to add the Law to Jesus. Jesus took our place because we are not able to keep the law perfectly.
> 
> * Romans 8:1-9  *
> 8 _There is_ therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.  2 *For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. * 3 *For what the law could not do* in that it was weak through the flesh, *God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin:* *He condemned sin in the flesh,  4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. * 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those _who live_ according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.  6 For to be carnally minded _is_ death, but to be spiritually minded _is_ life and peace.  7 Because the carnal mind _is_ enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
> 
> 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.  10 And if Christ _is_ in you, the body _is_ dead because of sin, but the Spirit _is_ life because of righteousness.  11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.




Nope....Salvation doesn't come from keeping Law.   The Law could not save us, as is plainly stated.   But, just as the "mixed multitude" was saved from Egypt first, THEN given instructions that would bring blessings and curses in their life, God has saved us first through faith, but blessings still come through obedience.   Christ redeemed us from the curse, not the blessings.


----------



## Spineyman

The first day of the week was the day on which our Lord rose from the dead (John 20:1; cf. Ps. 118:24). The first day of the week is called “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10;  1 Cor. 16:2). The first day was the day on which the Holy Spirit was poured out on the church (Acts 2:1-36).  Therefore we observe the Lords day as the day we meet to be with the Lord.



You are  just plain wrong in his use of 1 John 3:4. If you were consistent, you would  still need  to be killing lambs and stoning homosexuals.  Jesus died and in doing so, brought about a revolutionary change in the law because now, it wasn't settled on the kingdom of Israel, but the worldwide kingdom of God, where we are the temple where God dwells. This wasn't breaking the law so much as fulfilling its function.  In the case of the Sabbath (and other holy days dictated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension fulfilled and summed up all those holy days and made them better--he didn't abolish them, he concentrated them.  Like he concentrated the whole sacrificial system of the OT into bread and wine, he concentrated all the holy days and Jewish religious calendar into the Lord's Day.  So I do keep the commandments of the OT in my union with Christ, who fulfilled or "concentrated" all those into the simple, powerful Lord's Day with word, bread and wine.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Spineyman said:


> The first day of the week was the day on which our Lord rose from the dead (John 20:1; cf. Ps. 118:24). The first day of the week is called “the Lord’s day” (Rev. 1:10;  1 Cor. 16:2). The first day was the day on which the Holy Spirit was poured out on the church (Acts 2:1-36).  Therefore we observe the Lords day as the day we meet to be with the Lord.
> 
> 
> 
> You are  just plain wrong in his use of 1 John 3:4. If you were consistent, you would  still need  to be killing lambs and stoning homosexuals.  Jesus died and in doing so, brought about a revolutionary change in the law because now, it wasn't settled on the kingdom of Israel, but the worldwide kingdom of God, where we are the temple where God dwells. This wasn't breaking the law so much as fulfilling its function.  In the case of the Sabbath (and other holy days dictated in Leviticus and Deuteronomy) Jesus' death and resurrection and ascension fulfilled and summed up all those holy days and made them better--he didn't abolish them, he concentrated them.  Like he concentrated the whole sacrificial system of the OT into bread and wine, he concentrated all the holy days and Jewish religious calendar into the Lord's Day.  So I do keep the commandments of the OT in my union with Christ, who fulfilled or "concentrated" all those into the simple, powerful Lord's Day with word, bread and wine.



Wrong yet again.    As you've admitted, MEN changed Sabbath, not God.   God said that the seventh day - Saturday - would be Sabbath FOREVER.   So many Christians ignore God's FOREVER statements.    Plus, we see everyone honoring the Sabbath some 30 years after Jesus' ascension.     

When it comes to sacrifices and stoning homosexuals, those are illegal here, just as they were for the Jews when they were in Babylon.   They kept what they could, just as we can.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Plus, people who say they honor the Sabbath, no matter what day they say they are doing it, don't honor how GOD ASKED US TO HONOR IT...    by not working or buying or selling.    when the Jews came back from Babylon, they started buying and selling on the Sabbath.   Ezra had the gates of the city locked and guarded to prevent them from buying/selling on the Sabbath.   He warned them that God would be angry with them again if they continued.


----------



## Spineyman

Let me guess, 7th Day Adventist


----------



## Spineyman

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Plus, people who say they honor the Sabbath, no matter what day they say they are doing it, don't honor how GOD ASKED US TO HONOR IT...    by not working or buying or selling.    when the Jews came back from Babylon, they started buying and selling on the Sabbath.   Ezra had the gates of the city locked and guarded to prevent them from buying/selling on the Sabbath.   He warned them that God would be angry with them again if they continued.


In the first place you are not Old Testament Israel, you are New Testament Church!


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Spineyman said:


> Let me guess, 7th Day Adventist



Nope...bible believer.    Raised Pentecostal.    But, Sabbath is something I do have in common with Adventists.    It is possible that even a group like the Adventists could be correct in some things, right?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Spineyman said:


> In the first place you are not Old Testament Israel, you are New Testament Church!



If you are not part of Israel, you are not in covenant with God.    God never made a covenant with Gentiles.    You had to be grafted into Israel.   "Once a Gentile" as Ephesians 2 says...     Plus, the church existed before the NT.....Acts 7


----------



## Spineyman

* Matthew 22:36-40*

36 “Teacher, which _is_ the great commandment in the law?”


37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  38 This is _the_ first and great commandment.  39 And _the_ second _is_ like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  40 On *these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.*”


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Spineyman said:


> * Matthew 22:36-40*
> 
> 36 “Teacher, which _is_ the great commandment in the law?”
> 
> 
> 37 Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’  38 This is _the_ first and great commandment.  39 And _the_ second _is_ like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’  40 On *these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.*”



and neither were part of the 10


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> If you are not part of Israel, you are not in covenant with God.    God never made a covenant with Gentiles.    You had to be grafted into Israel.   "Once a Gentile" as Ephesians 2 says...     Plus, the church existed before the NT.....Acts 7


 Would that not show a "change?" That there once was a time the Gentile was without Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God?

The grafting in came later right?  That part of God's plan entered time later. The Covenants of promise were made to Israel. Gentiles had to be spiritually or physically grafted in to receive these promises. 

I can see Romans 11 explaining this. I'm not sure it means we have to be circumcised. Explain how a Remnant of Jews was chosen by grace and not works. Did their election by grace give them the power to be obedient?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why did Jesus have to come in order for me to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel? Exactly how did his Death tear down the wall of hostility that kept me out?

Then explain why in Romans 11 Paul says it was Israel's hardening that allowed me access to the commonwealth.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> Would that not show a "change?" That there once was a time the Gentile was without Christ, excluded from the citizenship of Israel, and foreigners to the covenants of promise, without hope and without God?
> 
> The grafting in came later right?  That part of God's plan entered time later. The Covenants of promise were made to Israel. Gentiles had to be spiritually or physically grafted in to receive these promises.
> 
> I can see Romans 11 explaining this. I'm not sure it means we have to be circumcised. Explain how a Remnant of Jews was chosen by grace and not works. Did their election by grace give them the power to be obedient?



That was the gospel that Jesus preached.   For centuries the Jews had wondered how he would bring back the northern kingdom (House of Isreal) who he had divorced and sent away, but still loved deeply (Hosea)    God's house was ALWAYS to be a house of prayer for ALL NATIONS.   Jews during the 1st century HATED those from the northern kingdom, (Samaritans) and considered them 'unclean'.   No man -created in God's image - has ever been declared unclean by God.   

Circumcision is not a must....your heart has to be circumcised first...   Physical circumcision is an act of obedience only.    Like with Timothy.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did Jesus have to come in order for me to be grafted into the Commonwealth of Israel? Exactly how did his Death tear down the wall of hostility that kept me out?
> 
> Then explain why in Romans 11 Paul says it was Israel's hardening that allowed me access to the commonwealth.



The only way God could remarry the northern kingdom (who He had divorced) when His own Law forbid Him remarrying a wife that had slept with others, was through HIS OWN DEATH


----------



## Artfuldodger

As Gentiles, my ancestors were once far away from those covenants of promise. They were without hope and God. Jesus did something to remove that wall of hostility. He had a way of making the two become one. 
What did Jesus do by death to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> As Gentiles, my ancestors were once far away from those covenants of promise. They were without hope and God. Jesus did something to remove that wall of hostility. He had a way of making the two become one.
> What did Jesus do by death to create in Himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace?



He took the punishment of the adulterous bride.    Death.    That's how the two kingdoms could come back together.   there is now no Jews or Greeks.    You are either part of Isreal or you're not part of Israel.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> The only way God could remarry the northern kingdom (who He had divorced) when His own Law forbid Him remarrying a wife that had slept with others, was through HIS OWN DEATH


Then why is Paul preaching that the Gentiles were strangers to the Covenants of promise? Why is Paul telling us there was a dividing wall between the Jew and Gentile? Why is Paul telling us in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Are you saying the dividing wall was just between the Tribes of Israel?
I've never heard Ephesians 2 explained that way considering who Paul was sent to preach to.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> Then why is Paul preaching that the Gentiles were strangers to the Covenants of promise? Why is Paul telling us there was a dividing wall between the Jew and Gentile? Why is Paul telling us in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
> 
> Are you saying the dividing wall was just between the Tribes of Israel?
> I've never heard Ephesians 2 explained that way considering who Paul was sent to preach to.



Paul is correct.    There was hatred between the Southern kingdom and Northern kingdom at that time.    Gentiles (non-Jews) were not allowed past the "court of the Gentiles", which was NEVER part of God's design plan for the temple!   Only the Holy of Holies was off limits to all but one man.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Why would Paul teach about the grafting in of the Gentiles in Romans if there wasn't a previous dividing wall that he said Jesus removed in Ephesians 2?
Does anyone care to tell me how the death of Jesus removed the dividing wall? What did Paul say it allowed? How did it allow the Gentiles to be grafted in?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Paul is correct.    There was hatred between the Southern kingdom and Northern kingdom at that time.    Gentiles (non-Jews) were not allowed past the "court of the Gentiles", which was NEVER part of God's design plan for the temple!   Only the Holy of Holies was off limits to all but one man.



Another thing to consider is why thousands upon thousands converted at his preaching when he went to the Gentiles.    Thousands converted because they were THE DISPERSION!   They were from the northern kingdom and wondered how they would be brought back into covenant.   Paul - the Torah genius - explained to them that Jesus had paid the penalty of the adulterous northern tribes.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Hint, what Christ's death did;
It abolished, it annulled, it ended, it made of no effect, it destroyed, ir canceled, it made void,  something.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Another thing to consider is why thousands upon thousands converted at his preaching when he went to the Gentiles.    Thousands converted because they were THE DISPERSION!   They were from the northern kingdom and wondered how they would be brought back into covenant.   Paul - the Torah genius - explained to them that Jesus had paid the penalty of the adulterous northern tribes.



Then it's quite possible that only the true Elect or Dispersed can hear God's voice. If God never changes, then should we assume, all who are from Israel are not Abraham's seed?
Wouldn't it have to always have been like this from the beginning of time?


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would Paul teach about the grafting in of the Gentiles in Romans if there wasn't a previous dividing wall that he said Jesus removed in Ephesians 2?
> Does anyone care to tell me how the death of Jesus removed the dividing wall? What did Paul say it allowed? How did it allow the Gentiles to be grafted in?



I believe the 'dividing wall' was the fact that the Jews had barred Gentiles from the temple....a temple that was always for all men.    Maybe I'm misunderstanding you....


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> Then it's quite possible that only the true Elect or Dispersed can hear God's voice. If God never changes, then should we assume, all who are from Israel are not Abraham's seed?
> Wouldn't it have to always have been like this from the beginning of time?



all who are of faith are Abraham's seed.....Faith makes you like Abraham and thus a heir of the promises


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

BANDERSNATCH said:


> all who are of faith are Abraham's seed.....Faith makes you like Abraham and thus a heir of the promises



Oh....and the Law has been from the beginning....from Adam and Eve's time.   Transgression is what brought the Law.   It was oral to begin with.


----------



## Spineyman

Romans 8 :2-4
2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3*For** what the Law was powerless to do *in that it was weakened by the flesh, *God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man,  as an offering  for sin. He thus condemned sin in the **flesh*,   4so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…

Numbers 28:22
Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you.

Acts 13:39
Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything *you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.*

Romans 7:18
*I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh*; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Galatians 4:4
But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman,* born under the Law,*

Hebrews 4:15
For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.

Hebrews 7:18
*So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless*

Hebrews 10:1
*The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.* *It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.*

Hebrews 10:8
In the passage above He says, "*Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings* You did not desire, nor did You delight in them" *(although they are required by the Law).
For what the law could not do*, in that it was weak through the flesh, *God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:*

*Romans 3:20*
*Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: *for by the law _is_ the knowledge of sin.
*Romans 7:5-11*
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, *which were by the law*,* did work *in our members *to bring forth fruit unto death…
Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things,* *from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.*
God.
*Romans 8:32*
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

*Galatians 4:4,5*
But when the fulness of the time was come, *God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, …*

*2 Corinthians 5:21*
For he hath made him _to be_ sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
*Galatians 3:13
 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,* *being made a curse for us: *for it is written,* Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:*

*Romans 6:6*
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with _him_, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

*1 Peter 2:24*
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

*1 Peter 4:1,2*
For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; …

So might I suggest you flee from the Law and flee to Christ, who is the only one that can save you.



​


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Can I ask....how do you show God you love Him?


----------



## Spineyman

Colossians 2:17
*These are a shadow of the things to come,* but the body that casts it belongs to Christ.

Hebrews 7:11
Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (upon which basis the people received the Law), why was there still need for another priest to appear--one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron?

Hebrews 7:19
*(for the Law made nothing perfect)*, and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.

Hebrews 8:5
*They serve at a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary.* That is why Moses was warned when he was about to build the tabernacle, "See to it that you make everything according to the pattern shown you on the mountain."

Hebrews 9:9
It is an illustration for the present time,* because the gifts and sacrifices being offered were unable to cleanse the conscience of the worshiper.*

Hebrews 9:11
*But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come*, He entered the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands (that is, not of this creation).

Hebrews 10:4
*because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of goats to take away sins.*

Hebrews 10:11
*Day after day every priest stands to minister and to offer again and again the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.*

Hebrews 10:14
*because by a single offering He has made perfect for all time those who are sanctified.*

Hebrews 10:22
*let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith,* *having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, *and *not the very image of the things,* *can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.*


*Hebrews 9:9,11,23*
*Which was a figure for the time then present,* *in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, *that *could not make him that did the service perfect*, as *pertaining to the conscience; …*

*Colossians 2:17*
*Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.*


*Hebrews 10:3,4,11-18*
 But in those _sacrifices there is_ a remembrance again _made_ of sins every year…


*Hebrews 9:8,9,25*
*The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: …*

perfect.

*Hebrews 10:14*
*For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.*

The law can not save you Christ is our only Help and our only Hope!


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

So, what you're saying is, you're content with grace and feel no need to show Him your appreciation?     I don't know how many times I've said it....the Law does not save you!   I've yet to say that even once.   Obedience is how we show Him we love him.


----------



## RegularJoe

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Can I ask....how do you show God you love Him?


For me ... m-o-s-t-l-y by endeavoring to be at least just a tad more each day like Christ.  
My actual progress toward this objective is, for example, sometimes 1 step backwards followed by 2 steps forward, then 1/2 half step forward and so on and so forth ... in one word, erratic.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Spineyman said:


> Romans 8 :2-4
> 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death. 3*For** what the Law was powerless to do *in that it was weakened by the flesh, *God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man,  as an offering  for sin. He thus condemned sin in the **flesh*,   4so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.…
> 
> Numbers 28:22
> Include one male goat as a sin offering to make atonement for you.
> 
> Acts 13:39
> Through Him everyone who believes is justified from everything *you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses.*
> 
> Romans 7:18
> *I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh*; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.
> 
> 2 Corinthians 5:21
> God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
> 
> Galatians 4:4
> But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman,* born under the Law,*
> 
> Hebrews 4:15
> For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin.
> 
> Hebrews 7:18
> *So the former commandment is set aside because it was weak and useless*
> 
> Hebrews 10:1
> *The Law is only a shadow of the good things to come, not the realities themselves.* *It can never, by the same sacrifices offered year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.*
> 
> Hebrews 10:8
> In the passage above He says, "*Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings* You did not desire, nor did You delight in them" *(although they are required by the Law).
> For what the law could not do*, in that it was weak through the flesh, *God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:*
> 
> *Romans 3:20*
> *Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: *for by the law _is_ the knowledge of sin.
> *Romans 7:5-11*
> For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, *which were by the law*,* did work *in our members *to bring forth fruit unto death…
> Acts 13:39
> And by him all that believe are justified from all things,* *from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.*
> God.
> *Romans 8:32*
> He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
> 
> *Galatians 4:4,5*
> But when the fulness of the time was come, *God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, …*
> 
> *2 Corinthians 5:21*
> For he hath made him _to be_ sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
> *Galatians 3:13
> Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law,* *being made a curse for us: *for it is written,* Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:*
> 
> *Romans 6:6*
> Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with _him_, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
> 
> *1 Peter 2:24*
> Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
> 
> *1 Peter 4:1,2*
> For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; …
> 
> So might I suggest you flee from the Law and flee to Christ, who is the only one that can save you.
> ​



That being said, as we see salvation by grace alone and not of works, how do you show obedience to God? What does it mean to you to obey God? Just spell it out for me. 

Forgive others? Help the poor? Do not swindle? Do not perform homosexual acts? Don't worship idols? Witness the Gospel? All of the above?

If we are to obey God, what are the guidelines? Can we pick and choose what Paul suggest about homosexuality? Fornication? Lust?


----------



## Artfuldodger

RegularJoe said:


> For me ... m-o-s-t-l-y by endeavoring to be at least just a tad more each day like Christ.
> My actual progress toward this objective is, for example, sometimes 1 step backwards followed by 2 steps forward, then 1/2 half step forward and so on and so forth ... in one word, erratic.



I would imagine all of our endeavors to obey God are erratic, but somehow, somewhere we must have some type of idea what it means to obey God. I mean one can't even begin to obey God if he doesn't know what it even means.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> I would imagine all of our endeavors to obey God are erratic, but somehow, somewhere we must have some type of idea what it means to obey God. I mean one can't even begin to obey God if he doesn't know what it even means.



John tells us what sin is.   Probably a good place to start.    I John 3:4  "Sin is TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW"


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> John tells us what sin is.   Probably a good place to start.    I John 3:4  "Sin is TRANSGRESSION OF THE LAW"



I just read through 1 John 3. That paints Christianity in a whole different light. To me it is saying that once can't just claim salvation and receive it. One can't just claim to be a brother or sister.

It says that we as Christians probably want even fit into what is seen as worldly. That one must practice righteousness as proof that we are born of Him. 

We know that Christ appeared to take away our sins. No one who remains in Him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has seen Him or known Him.
The one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as Christ is righteous. The one who practices sin is of the devil.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Absolutely.    Christians who believe standard pulpit talk don't like or read I John, typically.   They just cherry pick I John 1:9  or 5:14,15


----------



## Artfuldodger

1 John 3:9
Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

For some reason, I thought Jesus came to do something that I couldn't do. I thought he came to replace the law that I couldn't keep.

So to die for my sins was just some way for me to gain God's seed so that I would have the power to quit sinning? Jesus didn't die to annul the law that we couldn't keep, he died to give us the power of the seed to quit sinning all together?

1 John 3:10
By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

I'm not sure I show enough of the distinguishing features as proof that I received the seed. I guess I had always put too much faith in Christ.

How does one go about knowing he has the proof that he has the seed of God?

Can someone "make" themself" saved by "making" themselves righteous? I guess what I'm asking is if the fruit is the proof and I don't have it, then I'm not saved.
I can't suddenly produce the fruit. I can't make myself saved if I'm not. I can't be scared into producing fruit.

If the seed is not there, well it's just not there. Not really anything I can actually do about it.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

James says that if you truly believe, it will show, just as it did with Abraham.   It wasn't enough for Abraham to just believe God, it took him going all the way to that mountain and tying Isaac up and attempting to kill him before God said, "Now I see your faith".    

I think you're reading too much into this.        If you have God's spirit (Romans 8:9) then you will have Spirit fruit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> James says that if you truly believe, it will show, just as it did with Abraham.   It wasn't enough for Abraham to just believe God, it took him going all the way to that mountain and tying Isaac up and attempting to kill him before God said, "Now I see your faith".
> 
> I think you're reading too much into this.        If you have God's spirit (Romans 8:9) then you will have Spirit fruit.



It's basically the same thing the Election crowd is telling me. Salvation is from grace alone. No amount of works can save me. No one comes to Christ except who the Father sends.

Therefore, if I can't save myself, the fruits of obedience are just proof that my salvation "took." If one doesn't then it's proof the seed of God, didn't "take."

The ability to produce fruit is the proof of who God actually Elected. That there is no possible way one who has the seed can sin like the devil.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Then again, if someone who has salvation can become a prodigal son. We have to assume that even with the seed of God giving us power, we still fail. 
I can't necessarily say that when a Christian backslides it is proof that he didn't receive the seed. I can't make the claim that God never knew him. It's not proof to me that he isn't saved. 

It may take the alcoholic a lifetime to quit sinning. The homosexual may never overcome his sin.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

That's why I'm glad God gets to do the judging        We should judge others for sinning differently than we do.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Within Christianity, does God give us an A for effort? Is repentance actually to quit drinking or just to wish you could?

I like to use lust vs adultery or hatred vs murder. Can one just wish he didn't have lust in his heart or anger towards a fellow man? 

Is just wishing we could change considered repentance? 

Paul presents this "list" of sins that says it will keep individuals from inheriting Kingdom. Then he says;

"And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."

What is this actually saying? Could one truly be washed and still a drunkard? Could a washed Christian become greedy? 

Maybe the "washing" means we can't become anything that will keep us out of the Kingdom. Maybe it means that every single person washed in the blood of Christ was once one of them on that list.

Then again, it could mean that if you are still performing sins on that list, you never actually received the washing. If so then there really aren't that many of us that are going to enter the Kingdom.

Yet salvation is by grace alone. Or is it?


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That's why I'm glad God gets to do the judging        We should judge others for sinning differently than we do.



Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Just by judging someone for sinning makes us just as guilty. So how do we as Christians judge others differently as to not condemning ourselves?

Therefore and to a point, if we hate, we are guilty of murder. If we lust, we are guilty of adultery. Yet we and you mentioned this in your sermon, can only see what a brother does outwardly.

So when we look out over a congregation, we are only seeing a small amount of their sinning nature.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

Artfuldodger said:


> Within Christianity, does God give us an A for effort? Is repentance actually to quit drinking or just to wish you could?
> 
> I like to use lust vs adultery or hatred vs murder. Can one just wish he didn't have lust in his heart or anger towards a fellow man?
> 
> Is just wishing we could change considered repentance?
> 
> Paul presents this "list" of sins that says it will keep individuals from inheriting Kingdom. Then he says;
> 
> "And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God."
> 
> What is this actually saying? Could one truly be washed and still a drunkard? Could a washed Christian become greedy?
> 
> Maybe the "washing" means we can't become anything that will keep us out of the Kingdom. Maybe it means that every single person washed in the blood of Christ was once one of them on that list.
> 
> Then again, it could mean that if you are still performing sins on that list, you never actually received the washing. If so then there really aren't that many of us that are going to enter the Kingdom.
> 
> Yet salvation is by grace alone. Or is it?



Blessings come with obedience.    Salvation is a gift as long as we believe.   This is my personal opinion, albeit educated guess, but I believe that believers who continue in sin will not INHERIT REWARDS....but that they still have eternal life.    Maybe I'm way off base, though.

Numerous places, including from the Lord's own mouth, it says that we will be GREAT IN HEAVEN for obeying God's commands.    It's also out ticket into the new Jerusalem.    Only those who obey God's commands will enter in through one of the gates that, BTW, are for the tribes of Israel.


----------



## Artfuldodger

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Blessings come with obedience.    Salvation is a gift as long as we believe.   This is my personal opinion, albeit educated guess, but I believe that believers who continue in sin will not INHERIT REWARDS....but that they still have eternal life.    Maybe I'm way off base, though.
> 
> Numerous places, including from the Lord's own mouth, it says that we will be GREAT IN HEAVEN for obeying God's commands.    It's also out ticket into the new Jerusalem.    Only those who obey God's commands will enter in through one of the gates that, BTW, are for the tribes of Israel.


I've heard it explained that way but what about the resurrection of the evil vs the righteous? The separation of the sheep and goats based on their works?

I'm OK with just scootin' in. I mean I'd like the extra rewards but just to make it in would be better than everlasting death. So you think the washing will get me in but the obedience will get me rewards?

I'm not sure that is what 1 John 3 is saying. I'll give it another read.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

I agree with you, Art.    There are things that Jesus (and others) said that implies that "practicing lawlessness" will equal ****ation.     I Cor 5 talks about the destruction of a Christian brother who is in willful sin.   Hebrews 10:26 warns believers that continued willful sin will bring destruction.     But then again, Romans 10:9,10 makes salvation seem like the easiest thing to grab, and only requires a one-time confession with the mouth, not matter how you live the rest of your life.   
I, though, want Him proud of me.    And, I truly love Him, so I will obey Him.    It's probably sort of like Paschal's Wager, but from an obedience standpoint:    If I "waste" the rest of my life obeying Him out of love, and not trying to earn anything, and I get to heaven and He says, "You really didn't need to obey Me since I really don't care if people sin anymore (sarcasm intended)  but you still get eternal life!", I've lost nothing.    BUT, if He rewards those who love Him and obey from the heart, then I've gained IMMEASURABLY MORE than Joe-blow Christian.


----------



## Artfuldodger

What about faith being enough?

Romans 4:13-17

13It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith. 14 For if those who depend on the law are heirs, faith means nothing and the promise is worthless, 15 because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore, the promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and may be guaranteed to all Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham. He is the father of us all. 17 As it is written: “I have made you a father of many nations.”[c] He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not.

What is righteousness that comes by faith?


----------



## Artfuldodger

not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham.

It sounds like Paul is making a distinguishing  remark. 

"Abraham’s offspring—not only to those who are of the law but also to those who have the faith of Abraham."

"He is the father of us all."  

"He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed—the God who gives life to the dead and calls into being things that were not."


----------



## LittleDrummerBoy

My wife and I were part of a Messianic congregation for several years in Colorado, and we occasionally attend a Messianic congregation in N Ga.  I also catch their message every week via video.  It's good teaching and a valuable part of my spiritual life, even though the Messianic group is not really our "home" congregation at the present time.

We've found that there are a lot of good, faithful people in the "Hebrew roots" movement.  They do tend to have a variety of beliefs, but we've always been welcomed warmly.  We've tried to be loving and learn from their strengths rather than battle over areas of disagreement.  On the whole, it seems that we have about as much in agreement and commonality with the Messianic group as we have with the Southern Baptist church that is currently our main fellowship, and also that we have with Free Chapel that we've attended a number of times and whose teachings we also appreciate via various media formats.

For me it all comes down to Scripture.  If they are serious about the word and obeying with zeal, then I can appreciate and learn from their ministry.  By the time one has been a disciple for 30+ years, there are going to be some areas of disagreement with just about any established ministry.  One can figure out how to bless each other or be a solo act.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH

I agree, LDB.   I hesitate to classify myself as "Hebrew Roots" but someone on the outside looking in would certainly say that I was part of that "cult"   lol    Some in the movement have started believing they can have multiple wives, or stopped believing in Jesus as the Messiah, etc.    I consider myself part of the "sect of the Nazarenes" that Paul (re: Epiphanius 4th century) was part of.... a believer in Jesus but running from lawlessness.


----------

