# If a virus killed your daughter but not you, could you witness on the power of prayer?



## 1eyefishing (Sep 23, 2021)

This was asked in the spiritual study forum, but I guess you cannot question God's omnipotence there.

 Read the context of the question there and I ask:
 If, thru prayer, God brought you back from the brink of a deadly disease, wouldnt you wonder why he let you get the disease in the first place?


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## Spotlite (Sep 23, 2021)

Question? Yes I’d question. But yes I could still witness to the power of prayer. I believe it works and I know I don’t understand His ways, I just believe He knows best. I beat Covid once. I know ministers that didn’t.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2021)

Strange question to ask "down here".


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Question? Yes I’d question. But yes I could still witness to the power of prayer. I believe it works and I know I don’t understand His ways, I just believe He knows best. I beat Covid once. I know ministers that didn’t.


What if 5 of the elder ladies in your Church died even though the same members prayed over them and not you? Could you return after you were brought back from the brink of death and return the very next Sunday and preach on the power of prayer?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> This was asked in the spiritual study forum, but I guess you cannot question God's omnipotence there.
> 
> Read the context of the question there and I ask:
> If, thru prayer, God brought you back from the brink of a deadly disease, wouldnt you wonder why he let you get the disease in the first place?


I would imagine many who think God offers a hedge of protection to not get it, wonder why that prayer didn't work. Then they ask for another hedge to prevent death.  
Maybe getting it was a trial or tribulation to prove that your next prayer to survive it was to show the power of prayer. Maybe it was to prove your faith to yourself.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Question? Yes I’d question. But yes I could still witness to the power of prayer. I believe it works and I know I don’t understand His ways, I just believe He knows best. I beat Covid once. I know ministers that didn’t.


Why did you add the ministers part? I think I would question a family member dying from it more than getting it. Not sure why. I might would leave getting it up to free will but dying from it up to God.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> This was asked in the spiritual study forum, but I guess you cannot question God's omnipotence there.
> 
> Read the context of the question there and I ask:
> If, thru prayer, God brought you back from the brink of a deadly disease, wouldnt you wonder why he let you get the disease in the first place?


What about I prayed for the hurricane not to hit my house so God steered it and it hit a very populated city instead. Thanks to the power of prayer, I lived.  I would just look at it as the power of God.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2021)

Some find relief in "a plan', some find relief in a mystery.


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## The Original Rooster (Sep 23, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Some find relief in "a plan', some find relief in a mystery.


That's a good observation on religion or the lack of in general.


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## Spotlite (Sep 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did you add the ministers part? I think I would question a family member dying from it more than getting it. Not sure why. I might would leave getting it up to free will but dying from it up to God.


Because that’s who I knew for sure who passed away with Covid.


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## j_seph (Sep 23, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> This was asked in the spiritual study forum, but I guess you cannot question God's omnipotence there.
> 
> Read the context of the question there and I ask:
> If, thru prayer, God brought you back from the brink of a deadly disease, wouldnt you wonder why he let you get the disease in the first place?


My wife had diastolic heart failure, she had a rough probably 1 1/2 to 2 years, told she would have to deal with this the rest of her life. Taking meds for it, 45 years old walk 50 yards tops to mailbox and back being completely out of breath. One Sunday morning she came up from an alter at church, said she was good. I said huh, what you talking about? She said my heart failure is good. Long story short, doctor ask what has changed, all we could tell him was prayer. Multiple visits he'd ask the same question when he finally had to state we are taking this off of your record. There is no sign of diastolic heart failure, this just doesn't happen.

Her spiritual life became stronger due to the battle she fought. Her Faith grew as the only cure she had was from God. She has gotten to witness to several, believers and non. This changed her life, her outlook on many things in it.

On the opposite side is myself, who prayed for his late wife to be cured from brain cancer. As many others prayed for the same and for his will be done. At 36 she left this world, fighting a battle for 10 years. Did she get her healing, yes but not on this side. However the lives effected and changed in those 10 years, especially my own would have never happened had she been healed on this side.


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## Israel (Sep 23, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Some find relief in "a plan', some find relief in a mystery.


If the plan includes "there is nothing hidden except to be revealed" it could satisfy relief for both.


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## Spotlite (Sep 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> What if 5 of the elder ladies in your Church died even though the same members prayed over them and not you? Could you return after you were brought back from the brink of death and return the very next Sunday and preach on the power of prayer?


Actually, yes.

Not virus related but when my Dad passed away that was the hardest thing I ever faced. I was very close to him. A lot of prayers.

I had all of the “why” questions, I’m human. But I know prayer works, it’s worked since then for me, many times. I don’t know why it couldn’t turn out my way with my Dad.

I still don’t know “why” and it still bothers me that he was robbed of watching his Grandchildren grow up.

We buried my Dad on a Wednesday. I was in service that following Sunday.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2021)

Israel said:


> If the plan includes "there is nothing hidden except to be revealed" it could satisfy relief for both.



Meh.  Surprise me.


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## Israel (Sep 23, 2021)

Not my job.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2021)

Israel said:


> If the plan includes "there is nothing hidden except to be revealed" it could satisfy relief for both.



Right. In many ways the power is not in the prayer, rather the power is in the healing and not in the healing in many cases. Healing and not healing ministers differently firstly that some might know faith in the first case and secondly that some might not take their faith for granted and so removed from the world as if a cross they did not fit.  And much more...

I know of a renowned Faith Healer who said something to the effect that healing is for people with little or no faith. If you have faith you should not need healing necessarily because you have faith.

I say if someone near you has no faith then maybe even if you have faith they might benefit from your healing due a thaumaturge. And more, this healing can minister to future generations. Prayer therefore is not the power in spiritual terms; healing is and not healing is. It seems to be the plan and is not that great a mystery.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 23, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Right. In many ways the power is not in the prayer, rather the power is in the healing and not in the healing in many cases. Healing and not healing ministers differently firstly that some might know faith in the first case and secondly that some might not take their faith for granted and so removed from the world as if a cross they did not fit.  And much more...


Maybe the power is in God.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2021)

Israel said:


> Not my job.




Didn't mean you, my brother.  I meant The Great Spirit.

It was kind of a soft dig at the notion that I could beg for some outcome, have it not come to pass, then say it was meant to be.  You know the schtick.


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2021)

gordon 2 said:


> Right. In many ways the power is not in the prayer, rather the power is in the healing and not in the healing in many cases. Healing and not healing ministers differently firstly that some might know faith in the first case and secondly that some might not take their faith for granted and so removed from the world as if a cross they did not fit.  And much more...
> 
> I know of a renowned Faith Healer who said something to the effect that healing is for people with little or no faith. If you have faith you should not need healing necessarily because you have faith.
> 
> I say if someone near you has no faith then maybe even if you have faith they might benefit from your healing due a thaumaturge. And more, this healing can minister to future generations. Prayer therefore is not the power in spiritual terms; healing is and not healing is. It seems to be the plan and is not that great a mystery.



'Cept people who do nothing sometimes get healed, too.....


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## ambush80 (Sep 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the power is in God.



I think the 'power' is in the perception.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> 'Cept people who do nothing sometimes get healed, too.....



Right. But you never know the heart of another...if in fact it is up to doing from something... believed to be nothing.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the power is in God.


Well if you want to go there, yes. The power of the healing is in God's power to do.  What is greater that a person's guilt be taken away or that his/her illness is cured? It Is perhaps greatest when both happens.


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## oldfella1962 (Sep 23, 2021)

well...... that thread title is certainly a great "ice breaker" at a social function!


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 23, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> This was asked in the spiritual study forum, but I guess you cannot question God's omnipotence there.
> 
> Read the context of the question there and I ask:
> If, thru prayer, God brought you back from the brink of a deadly disease, wouldnt you wonder why he let you get the disease in the first place?



I would hope I would look to God and ask what I am to learn from it.  Everything He does is for a reason. You have to remember that prayer in itself is just communicating with God.  It’s not and never has been about God doing our will, but at times it allows us to see his.


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## 1eyefishing (Sep 23, 2021)

j_seph said:


> My wife had diastolic heart failure, she had a rough probably 1 1/2 to 2 years, told she would have to deal with this the rest of her life. Taking meds for it, 45 years old walk 50 yards tops to mailbox and back being completely out of breath. One Sunday morning she came up from an alter at church, said she was good. I said huh, what you talking about? She said my heart failure is good. Long story short, doctor ask what has changed, all we could tell him was prayer. Multiple visits he'd ask the same question when he finally had to state we are taking this off of your record. There is no sign of diastolic heart failure, this just doesn't happen.
> 
> Her spiritual life became stronger due to the battle she fought. Her Faith grew as the only cure she had was from God. She has gotten to witness to several, believers and non. This changed her life, her outlook on many things in it.
> 
> On the opposite side is myself, who prayed for his late wife to be cured from brain cancer. As many others prayed for the same and for his will be done. At 36 she left this world, fighting a battle for 10 years. Did she get her healing, yes but not on this side. However the lives effected and changed in those 10 years, especially my own would have never happened had she been healed on this side.



 I'm glad your wife had a revelation. This is what connects with me. I am a seeker of my own personal revelation. I have faith that there is a higher being, but I have trouble with turning that faith into knowledge.
 I also have trouble soaking up the attributes that some believers give that higher being.


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## 1eyefishing (Sep 23, 2021)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would hope I would look to God and ask what I am to learn from it.  Everything He does is for a reason. You have to remember that prayer in itself is just communicating with God.  It’s not and never has been about God doing our will, but at times it allows us to see his.


 I actually pray even more than I believe I would.
 Not every night at bedtime or at dinner time with the family. I pray when I am alone with my thoughts.
 I'm never sure if anyone hears me and takes action but but I feel a little more complete.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 23, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Strange question to ask "down here".



yeah. It does kinda stand out.


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## 1eyefishing (Sep 23, 2021)

From past experiences, I know I would get scalded for putting my thoughts in the thread 'up there'...


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## j_seph (Sep 23, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would imagine many who think God offers a hedge of protection to not get it, wonder why that prayer didn't work. Then they ask for another hedge to prevent death.
> Maybe getting it was a trial or tribulation to prove that your next prayer to survive it was to show the power of prayer. Maybe it was to prove your faith to yourself.


In death the victory is ours, don't wanna just up and die but............


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## j_seph (Sep 23, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Actually, yes.
> 
> Not virus related but when my Dad passed away that was the hardest thing I ever faced. I was very close to him. A lot of prayers.
> 
> ...


But we can only imagine what he seen, experienced, when he crossed over. Honestly we can't even comprehend what eternity, no more pain or sorrow would be like. We just buroed a local pastor Sunday. Even on the hospital with Covid, he would ask for prayer but more so for those lost and others fighting for their life. Was told he would probably go home at end of week. Was joking on Tues and Wed. Well he went to home like no other on Thursday. Noting more than a Godly man full of love, nothing special about him. There were 250 people pluse at funeral.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 24, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> This was asked in the spiritual study forum, but I guess you cannot question God's omnipotence there.


Questioning God's omnipotence is constant there.

And here.


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## Israel (Sep 24, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> I think the 'power' is in the perception.




amen.

It's one thing to be told and hear "Be careful how you hear" and quite another to be made able to be careful how one hears (or sees). I'd agree it takes power for perceptions to be calibrated correctly. That little bubble thingy in a level will read true, but if it ain't set right to the full length of the level...

Let's face it there's a lotta output (seeking to be input) continually being thrown our way...one might even consider it assault set for the overwhelming were we not given some power to squelch.

And I appreciate your helping me out in further elucidating a comment I thought was directed to me.



> Surprise me.



I was more than ready to add to the unnecessary static by preparing some defense...you disarmed me.


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## kmh1031 (Sep 26, 2021)

Prayer does help, and god hears our prayers. We are encouraged to pray to him in all things

However note some very practical advice for our time, written thousands of years ago from the Bible

Solomon said in Ecc 9:11
I have seen something further under the sun, that the swift do not always win the race, nor do the mighty win the battle, nor do the wise always have the food, nor do the intelligent always have the riches, nor do those with knowledge always have success, *because time and unexpected events overtake them all*.  


We can have some bearing on our life, and longevity if we make good decisions in life especially related to what is going on now related to Covid.

Despite life’s uncertainties, we can often live longer if we make wise decisions.

The Bible says: 
“The teaching of the wise one is a source of life to turn one away from the snares of death.” Pro 13:14

Likewise, Moses told the Israelites that they could “live a long time” if they obeyed God’s commands Deut 6:2

In contrast, we can carelessly shorten our life by bad or foolish actions.  Ecc 7:17


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## K80 (Sep 26, 2021)

This is a very difficult topic for me.   Probably where I have been tested more than any where else.   My faith in the Lord is strong.   I've felt the thousands of prayers going up for me and my family.   However, the topic of power of prayer is very fuzzy for me, unless that prayer is for forgiveness.


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## WaltL1 (Sep 27, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> I actually pray even more than I believe I would.
> Not every night at bedtime or at dinner time with the family. I pray when I am alone with my thoughts.
> I'm never sure if anyone hears me and takes action but but I feel a little more complete.


You heard you and took action (in your brain) and felt more complete?


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## kmh1031 (Sep 27, 2021)

God hears us: 
Ps 145:18-19 

God wants us to pray to him: Philippians 4:6

God Really cares about you: 1Pet 5:7


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## kmh1031 (Sep 27, 2021)

We all struggle at times to know what to say, ask for, thank god for…
Here are just a few of thousands…. 

Faith in God. Luke 17:5
Holy spirit, or God’s active force, to help you do what is right. Luke 11:13
Strength to deal with troubles and to resist temptation. Phil 4:13
Inner peace or calmness. Phil 4:6-7
Wisdom to make good decisions. James 1:5
Help with daily needs. Matt 6:11
Forgiveness of sins. Matt 6:12


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## 1eyefishing (Sep 27, 2021)

WaltL1 said:


> You heard you and took action (in your brain) and felt more complete?


Yeah... 
Still computing on that though...
Color me a little agnostic.
Just in case I am a little more than the product of the available chemistry and conditions...
Who or what defined all these rules (ie, physics, math, and other sciences) that we HAVE to live with?
Or are we purely accidental?
If we're accidental,  there still could be a higher being...


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## Israel (Sep 28, 2021)

1eyefishing said:


> Yeah...
> Still computing on that though...
> Color me a little agnostic.
> Just in case I am a little more than the product of the available chemistry and conditions...
> ...






> Or are we purely accidental?
> If we're accidental,  there still could be a higher being...




Those last lines is where all hangs. Purpose purposed _to all things_ (with man included) or none at all. Any man addressing this matter by expression...words, deeds, even thoughts within himself...demonstrates he fundamentally embraces purpose by response...or else he would be silent, doing nothing, thinking...nothing.


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## 660griz (Oct 5, 2021)

Prayer works sometimes...and so do placebos. Ya just gotta believe!


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## tvillenole (Oct 7, 2021)

My mother in law is a very devoted god fearing woman.  We were having a conversation when she came up to visit a few weeks back.  This is pretty much what she said...When her mother fell ill last year she prayed and prayed for her and regardless she passed a few days later from something she probably shouldn't have.  She was having doubts because her prayers weren't answered.  She was speaking to one of the elders at church who told her that in fact her prayers were answered because her mother was no longer suffering and was now in heaven.  She now feels good about it because she thinks her prayers actually were answered.  I had to bite my tongue and call it a night.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 7, 2021)

The religious leaders today do not teach the Truths of the bible......thus the reason they cannot answer why bad things happen, death, or why prayers not all answered.

Here is a link on Are your prayers answered:

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1972481?q=prayers+answered?&p=doc

*James 1:13* helps with the fact that God does not bring death, or calamity upon us:
"When under trial, let no one say: “I am being tried by God.” For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone

Also *Romans 5:12* shows why we ALL die:
That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned.

The condition of the dead *Ecc 9:5-9*

For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. 

What happens to the dead?  *John 5:28-29*

Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29  and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.


Note that dead not in heaven, but in the memorial tombs.....IF in heaven, then would they be placed back in memorial tombs??? for this scripture to be fulfilled?

Todays clergy is not teaching the truths of the bible.

Note part of a future prophesy...that will be fullfilled here on earth:
*Rev 21:3-4*

 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them.
4  And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be any more The former things have passed away.

No more death, sickness, crime, etc etc....here on earth...

*Ps 37* shows this as well as over 100 more scriptures, and prophesies that show the earth to be restored, death sickness gone, and all gods righteous subjects living forever on earth as originally planned....


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 7, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> The religious leaders today do not teach the Truths of the bible......thus the reason they cannot answer why bad things happen, death, or why prayers not all answered.
> 
> Here is a link on Are your prayers answered:
> 
> ...


Ol' Job might have something to say about that. Amidst rubbing his boils. Or all the people that were drowned in the Great Flood. Or all them dead Philistines.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 7, 2021)

God did not test job, but it was Satan. god did give the ones in flood over 90 years to repent and listen to Noah, and the Philistines were coming against gods people and they were also pagan worshiping peiple 
Look up some of their practices.
God has not held back from punishing or destroying unrighteous people after giving a warning and sufficient time 
Take a look at sodom Gomorrah or the activities before flood.
Exact Same thing going on now with the warning before armegedden which is Gods war against the govts false religion and the unrighteous


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 7, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Ol' Job might have something to say about that. Amidst rubbing his boils. Or all the people that were drowned in the Great Flood. Or all them dead Philistines.



a really extreme example would be the Jews when Hitler was running wild. They have about 6,000,000 reasons to think that maybe being god's "chosen people" isn't always all it's cracked up to be. Just sayin'


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## kmh1031 (Oct 8, 2021)

they have not been gods chosen people for thousands of years 

Centuries ago, God told the Israelites: “If you will strictly obey my voice and will indeed keep my covenant, then you will certainly become my special property out of all other peoples, because the whole earth belongs to me. And you yourselves will become to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.”

But was this special relationship with God unconditional? No! 
Note God had said: “If you will strictly obey my voice . . . then you will certainly become my special property

So Despite having received special favor as God’s chosen people, in the past, the majority of the Israelites abandoned the true worship of God 
What was Gods reaction?

 “I shall no more show mercy again to the house of Israel, because I shall positively take them away. . . . You men are not my people and I myself shall prove to be not yours.” Hosea 1:6,9
 Thus, those apostate Israelites would not remain in God’s favor nor his chosen people


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## Spotlite (Oct 8, 2021)

“If a virus killed your daughter but not you, could you witness on the power of prayer?”

That ^^^ question is really hitting home right now. We began a journey on September 26 when my brother was taken to ER, admitted into ICU for internal bleeding and eventually diagnosed with non alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver.

The call we didn’t want came at 11:30pm last tonight - “this is nurse ……you need to bring your mom to the hospital” 

So, me and my sister are sitting here in his room with our mom awaiting for his passing.

I can witness that yes prayer works. I’m also realizing that his lifestyle and lack of concern for his health created this monstrous night. 

I have all the normal “I don’t understand” thoughts, but for obvious reasons I’m not going to debate those right now.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> God did not test job, but it was Satan. god did give the ones in flood over 90 years to repent and listen to Noah, and the Philistines were coming against gods people and they were also pagan worshiping peiple
> Look up some of their practices.
> God has not held back from punishing or destroying unrighteous people after giving a warning and sufficient time
> Take a look at sodom Gomorrah or the activities before flood.
> Exact Same thing going on now with the warning before armegedden which is Gods war against the govts false religion and the unrighteous


Why didn't God just create people righteous to begin with like he had the power to, then he could have saved himself all that trouble having to drown and burn them and such for acting like he designed them to.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 8, 2021)

Great question… and he did. He created Adam and Eve Perfect to live forever here on earth and gave them the beautiful garden of Eden and they were to become fruitful and become many and fill the earth. They were righteous and had prospect to live forever Never to die…. And no disease, crime, etc. 

He also created them with free will, not robots. And gave them 1 law…. Do not eat from the tree.. if u do, u will die. 

Satan, an angel in high position in heaven who had free will also (as all of gods creations) left his position due to jealousy and independence deceived Eve, but Adam knew full well what he was doing and disobeyed God.

thus the scripture at Romans 5:12 rings true because our “parents” sinned:

“That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because they had all sinned”

note John 8:44 what the scriptures say of Satan. Jesus speaking of the false religious leaders at the time: 
You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a murderer when he began,band he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie.

this will all be solved shortly…


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## Longbeard16 (Oct 8, 2021)

Oh brother!!  ^^^


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> Great question… and he did. He created Adam and Eve Perfect to live forever here on earth and gave them the beautiful garden of Eden and they were to become fruitful and become many and fill the earth. They were righteous and had prospect to live forever Never to die…. And no disease, crime, etc.
> 
> He also created them with free will, not robots. And gave them 1 law…. Do not eat from the tree.. if u do, u will die.
> 
> ...


In other words, he set them up for failure, because he designed them to fail, then punished them for it. Sounds fair.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 8, 2021)

No not at all… he created them perfect, with everything they needed. Their choice to do right or wrong
if u raise ur child the best u can… teach them, guide them, educate them and love them… and they chose to become a serial killer, is it ur design?


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> No not at all… he created them perfect, with everything they needed. Their choice to do right or wrong
> if u raise ur child the best u can… teach them, guide them, educate them and love them… and they chose to become a serial killer, is it ur design?


No, because I didn't design the species from scratch. He did, according to the Bible. And installed the tendency to do wrong circuit in them. And made what he called wrong to be a lot more fun than what he called right. Then punished them when it worked like he designed it to.


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## Longbeard16 (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> and they chose to become a serial killer, is it ur design?



Uh absolutely!! He IS supposed to be a god right? And he also supposed to be omniscient. And also omnipotent. So somebody has got some explaining to do lol


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## kmh1031 (Oct 8, 2021)

As u know he created them with free will… perfect….U have it, ur kids have it, I have it to do what is right and according to gods standards, or choose a course opposite of that. Simple
Not defects not oreplanned…at all not the Stepford wives…. Ur right to choose


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> As u know he created them with free will… perfect….U have it, ur kids have it, I have it to do what is right and according to gods standards, or choose a course opposite of that. Simple
> Not defects not oreplanned…at all not the Stepford wives…. Ur right to choose


If you say so, but you're wrong. You just won't admit it. If I was a perfect being according to God's plan, or if God's plan were perfect, I wouldn't think that drinking and fornicating is a whole lot more fun than sitting for two hours listening to a dry sermon about going to Hades for drinking and fornicating.


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## Longbeard16 (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> As u know he created them with free will… perfect….U have it, ur kids have it, I have it to do what is right and according to gods standards, or choose a course opposite of that. Simple
> Not defects not oreplanned…at all not the Stepford wives…. Ur right to choose



You didn't answer my question. Is he omniscient? Is he omnipotent?


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## kmh1031 (Oct 8, 2021)

First, God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain is clearly stated in the Bible. 

God himself sets forth as proof of his Godship this ability to foreknow and foreordain events of salvation and deliverance, as well as acts of judgment and punishment, and then to bring such events to fulfillment. 
These are clearly laid out on scripture and proof of this is for another post. 

A second factor to be considered is the free moral agency of God’s intelligent creatures. 
The Scriptures show that God extends to such creatures the privilege and responsibility of free choice, of exercising free moral agency thereby making them accountable for their acts. 
They are thus not mere automatons or robots. 
Man could not truly have been created in “God’s image” if he were not a free moral agent. Logically, there should be no conflict between God’s foreknowledge (as well as his foreordaining) and the free moral agency of his intelligent creatures


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> No not at all… he created them perfect, with everything they needed. Their choice to do right or wrong
> if u raise ur child the best u can… teach them, guide them, educate them and love them… and they chose to become a serial killer, is it ur design?


So you have 2 children. You place a pack of Oreos in the middle of the living room and tell them they can do whatever they want all day every day BUT DON'T EAT THE OREOS. If they eat the Oreos it will make them smarter but then you are not only going hold it against them for the rest of their lives, but you will see fit to punish all of their offspring for the deeds of the two.
Does that sound about right?
Your excuse is...."Hey man, I warned them. I gave them the option. I gave them Free Will. But I punished them for doing what I knew they were going to do." 
Do you believe that God HAD to put the Tree of Knowledge smack dab where it was easily found? Do you beleive that a god had no other options? 
Do you think even for a little bit that such stories sound like excuses for humans being humans and they dumb down a supposed All Knowing and All Powerful God into making poor decisions that cost humans everlasting life?
The bible stories portray the bumbling attempts of a god who deep down wants his humans to live forever but he just keeps putting in self destruct buttons to thwart his own projects. And then feels the need to punish all of humanity for the actions he not only knew would take place but put into motion himself.
Create Adam and Eve and the Garden. PERFECT!...but like Bob Ross he couldn't just walk away without the need to paint one last gawdy Tree of Knowledge smack dab front and center and ruin the portrait. Then punish Adam and Eve and every other human for seeing the tree when they look at the picture.
Solution: Punishment as in death for the humans being human.

Ok, round two:
Let his creation go about their business full well knowing what his creation is going to do eons before he even created it and then get torqued because they are not following him like he expects them to. Solution: Drown everyone,  Drown Everything  except 8 people and pairs of each animal. Ha! THAT will show them! 
Solution: Punishment as in Death for humans being human.

But wait!!!
God's plan somehow doesn't work out like he expected yet again! How can that be? His cheery band of 8 repopulate the world(ok) and for some darn reason, I guess that free will thing again, They are straying away from God yet again. God is really thinking now. Sitting in his den, As he dunks his oreo in a cup of Knowledge Fruit Juice it hits him!! 
He decides the ONLY way to straighten out his creation is to make a Mini Me version of himself. It IS himself, but it really is NOT himself. He and his worshippers cannot really decide if they want to worship one god, two gods, sometimes three gods so they construct a convoluted hierarchy involving three different entities who are all the same but totally different..(but lets get back to God's latest caper, err plan)
He Decides that the ONLY way to fix these humans once and for all is to Impregnate some Jewish woman with a version of himself. Have her raise himself for about 30 years in obscurity and then bust onto the scene for about three years on a campaign to gain followers. In a pinnacle of advanced decision making God decides that he is going to have his people KILL his son/himself as some sort of sacrifice to show his compassionate side (but really he reunites with himself for eternity so there is absolutely no sacrifice whatsoever) and therefore with his son dying for all of humanity and taking their burden of sin away with his death..TA-DA! God has figured out yet again how to "fix" his broken creation.
But wait...something is missing in that picture. 
God breaks out the watercolors again and paints a big ol conditional tree right smack in the middle again.
You have to BELEIVE in Jesus or else he will administer more punishment in the form of eternal death and dangnation in a fiery pit of his choosing.

I don't know but it doesn't sound very god-like to me.


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> First, God’s ability to foreknow and foreordain is clearly stated in the Bible.
> 
> God himself sets forth as proof of his Godship this ability to foreknow and foreordain events of salvation and deliverance, as well as acts of judgment and punishment, and then to bring such events to fulfillment.
> These are clearly laid out on scripture and proof of this is for another post.
> ...


So then why punish the sons and daughters for being just like their father?


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> No not at all… he created them perfect, with everything they needed. Their choice to do right or wrong
> if u raise ur child the best u can… teach them, guide them, educate them and love them… and they chose to become a serial killer, is it ur design?


Adam and Eve had nobody to base their life actions after. They were the first. All they had was god to use as a role model. Did god explain the rules to them as a parent would? Did god explain the consequences as a parent would? Did god sit them down and go over his expectations of them as a parent would. If Adam and Eve were the first humans and so innocent and naive how/who did god expect them to use as an example of how to behave properly?

As a parent I know for darn sure that if I told a child to NOT open a drawer because there is something in there that could harm them that drawer will be opened eventually.  Conversely,  if I show them what is in the drawer, explain why it is harmful, explain why I do not want them to mess with it, do everything in my power to make it difficult for them to gain access to that drawer and its contents and then explain to them the punishment for disobeying me then I have done my job as a parent. It is my job to teach them. Not punish them for expecting them to know the rules without ever explaining the rules.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2021)

bullethead said:


> So then why punish the sons and daughters for being just like their father?


At least Zeus admitted his faults. He would smite you with lightning for bringing it up to him yourself, but he didn't claim to be perfect.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 8, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Adam and Eve had nobody to base their life actions after. They were the first. All they had was god to use as a role model. Did god explain the rules to them as a parent would? Did god explain the consequences as a parent would? Did god sit them down and go over his expectations of them as a parent would. If Adam and Eve were the first humans and so innocent and naive how/who did god expect them to use as an example of how to behave properly?
> 
> As a parent I know for darn sure that if I told a child to NOT open a drawer because there is something in there that could harm them that drawer will be opened eventually.  Conversely,  if I show them what is in the drawer, explain why it is harmful, explain why I do not want them to mess with it, do everything in my power to make it difficult for them to gain access to that drawer and its contents and then explain to them the punishment for disobeying me then I have done my job as a parent. It is my job to teach them. Not punish them for expecting them to know the rules without ever explaining the rules.


And also your job not to leave the sharp kitchen knives and porn mags and loaded pistol and Zippo lighter in the knee-high drawer in the kids' bedroom.


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## Longbeard16 (Oct 8, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Adam and Eve had nobody to base their life actions after. They were the first. All they had was god to use as a role model. Did god explain the rules to them as a parent would? Did god explain the consequences as a parent would? Did god sit them down and go over his expectations of them as a parent would. If Adam and Eve were the first humans and so innocent and naive how/who did god expect them to use as an example of how to behave properly?
> 
> As a parent I know for darn sure that if I told a child to NOT open a drawer because there is something in there that could harm them that drawer will be opened eventually.  Conversely,  if I show them what is in the drawer, explain why it is harmful, explain why I do not want them to mess with it, do everything in my power to make it difficult for them to gain access to that drawer and its contents and then explain to them the punishment for disobeying me then I have done my job as a parent. It is my job to teach them. Not punish them for expecting them to know the rules without ever explaining the rules.



Please stop posting all these facts because it's ruining a darn good bedtime story. Jeez Some people just have to see things their way or no way! It's how they were trained.


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> And also your job not to leave the sharp kitchen knives and porn mags and loaded pistol and Zippo lighter in the knee-high drawer in the kids' bedroom.


Exacta-Mundo Fonzarelli


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## ky55 (Oct 8, 2021)

Longbeard16 said:


> It's how they were trained.


Trained?
How about indoctrinated?


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## Longbeard16 (Oct 8, 2021)

ky55 said:


> Trained?
> How about indoctrinated?


Yes better term!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 8, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> “If a virus killed your daughter but not you, could you witness on the power of prayer?”
> 
> That ^^^ question is really hitting home right now. We began a journey on September 26 when my brother was taken to ER, admitted into ICU for internal bleeding and eventually diagnosed with non alcoholic cirrhosis of the liver.
> 
> ...


So sorry for your loss right now.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Adam and Eve had nobody to base their life actions after. They were the first. All they had was god to use as a role model. Did god explain the rules to them as a parent would? Did god explain the consequences as a parent would? Did god sit them down and go over his expectations of them as a parent would. If Adam and Eve were the first humans and so innocent and naive how/who did god expect them to use as an example of how to behave properly?
> 
> As a parent I know for darn sure that if I told a child to NOT open a drawer because there is something in there that could harm them that drawer will be opened eventually.  Conversely,  if I show them what is in the drawer, explain why it is harmful, explain why I do not want them to mess with it, do everything in my power to make it difficult for them to gain access to that drawer and its contents and then explain to them the punishment for disobeying me then I have done my job as a parent. It is my job to teach them. Not punish them for expecting them to know the rules without ever explaining the rules.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

Adam and Eve where perfect. Today we cannot imagaine what that means and the knowledge they had, health, well being that would open up to us because of our imperfect state.

Also as a good parent would do, god spoke to them daily, in the “breezy part of the day” instructing them, talking to them, guiding them as the Bible says. They were not created and had to “fend for themselves” education, or life wise.

many are trying to find fault with god or this perfect situation test many would love to be in…that now, no death, sickness, crime, etc

They had perfect knowledge, bodies, mind, and made a conscience decision (not preprogrammed) to sin… So again Rom 5:12 shows the result of their disobedience
Solution on the way soon as Ps 37 show…. but many will say brainwashed, while we say same about the others…!

so… Carry  on.. and I guess the true test, truth of these discussions will be seen soon enough..


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> Adam and Eve where perfect. Today we cannot imagaine what that means and the knowledge they had, health, well being that would open up to us because of our imperfect state.
> 
> Also as a good parent would do, god spoke to them daily, in the “breezy part of the day” instructing them, talking to them, guiding them as the Bible says. They were not created and had to “fend for themselves” education, or life wise.
> 
> ...


"Adam and Eve were perfect"
Apparently not.

How many parents punish the rest of the family and all that come after them for forever for the actions of one or two?


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

Inherited sin Romans 5:12 from our parents has been corrected by the ranson sacrifice of Jesus. Perfect life for perfect life. For all those that do gods will 

Of course God could have solved the problem there. However their were billions of onlookers… and Satan raised the issue of universal sovereignty l: gods right to rule and a righteous rule vs satans claim man is better off without God. 
So… god is letting all govts, mans rule take its course to prove as Ps 146:3-4 is true… man cannot even direct his own steps… we certainly see that today with the wars, crime, political systems thst don’t work… and the state of the world.

This will certainly and has proven man is NOT better off without gods direction and guidance. 
Thus the purposes of his Kingdom… Dan 2:44. And the hope in PS 37 and Rwvelation 21:3-4 all bad done away with and dead raised as a result of adamic son… with a chance to correct it.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> Inherited sin Romans 5:12 from our parents has been corrected by the ranson sacrifice of Jesus. Perfect life for perfect life. For all those that do gods will
> 
> Of course God could have solved the problem there. However their were billions of onlookers… and Satan raised the issue of universal sovereignty l: gods right to rule and a righteous rule vs satans claim man is better off without God.
> So… god is letting all govts, mans rule take its course to prove as Ps 146:3-4 is true… man cannot even direct his own steps… we certainly see that today with the wars, crime, political systems thst don’t work… and the state of the world.
> ...


What exactly was Jesus's sacrifice? What was the downside?
Has god been without the company of his son since the cross? 

Surely a god could and would have foreseen all of man's weaknesses and decisions prior to waiting thousands of years to introduce his Jesus solution. Why wait and purposely kill all those people in between?

What has changed human wise since the cross? 


Wars, crime, political systems that just don't work and the state of the world is no different today than 1000 or 6000 years ago. Times were no more peaceful or in less chaos during the Bible years as they are now.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2021)

bullethead said:


> What exactly was Jesus's sacrifice? What was the downside?
> Has god been without the company of his son since the cross?
> 
> Surely a god could and would have foreseen all of man's weaknesses and decisions prior to waiting thousands of years to introduce his Jesus solution. Why wait and purposely kill all those people in between?
> ...


I would guess that people and civilization then was actually a hundred times more violent and brutal than it is now.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would guess that people and civilization then was actually a hundred times more violent and brutal than it is now.


Yeah, talk about morals and religion....


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## 1eyefishing (Oct 9, 2021)

CaNt ArGuE wItH tHE BiBLe.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 9, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Yeah, talk about morals and religion....


Don't recall any crucifixions around here lately, for starters.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

None at my house either…. Check the origin (crucifix, cross) of it.

More violent then than now?? check the world wars, nuclear weapons, much more…. Ethnic cleansing and more… how many died in these? 
And yes false religion has been the cause of many a death u are correct on that 
Revelation calls them (Babylon the great) the “killer of the prophets” meaning the world of false religion


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> None at my house either…. Check the origin (crucifix, cross) of it.
> 
> More violent then than now?? check the world wars, nuclear weapons, much more…. Ethnic cleansing and more… how many died in these?
> And yes false religion has been the cause of many a death u are correct on that
> Revelation calls them (Babylon the great) the “killer of the prophets” meaning the world of false religion


It is all relative. 2 atomic weapons have been used in Battle. Nuclear weapons have been deterrents so far. 
50,000 men hacking at another 50,000 men with swords is pretty gruesome. The pages of your bible contain as much ethnic cleansing ordered by your god as any other.

I never said anything about "false" religion. Everyone that worships something thinks whatever their religion is the "right" religion. It takes two to fight and last I checked there wasn't one religion that won any battles by opting out of battles and wars.


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## ky55 (Oct 9, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> None at my house either…. Check the origin (crucifix, cross) of it.
> 
> More violent then than now?? check the world wars, nuclear weapons, much more…. Ethnic cleansing and more… how many died in these?
> And yes false religion has been the cause of many a death u are correct on that
> Revelation calls them (Babylon the great) the “killer of the prophets” meaning the world of false religion


That’s about the most unrealistic comparison I’ve ever seen on here. 
The bronze sword was the equivalent of a nuclear weapon at that time. 
Everything is realitive to the time frame.


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## ky55 (Oct 9, 2021)

bullethead said:


> It is all relative. 2 atomic weapons have been used in Battle. Nuclear weapons have been deterrents so far.
> 50,000 men hacking at another 50,000 men with swords is pretty gruesome. The pages of your bible contain as much ethnic cleansing ordered by your god as any other.
> 
> I never said anything about "false" religion. Everyone that worships something thinks whatever their religion is the "right" religion. It takes two to fight and last I checked there wasn't one religion that won any battles by opting out of battles and wars.


Sorry Bullet, 
I think we posted similar thoughts at the same time.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

This was the comment earlier…
“I would guess that people and civilization then was actually a hundred times more violent and brutal than it is now.”

And that was what I was addressing.. more violent and destructive weapons to kill today and millions more died in these wars.
more brutal and violent then than now? No… doubtful a bomb kills thousands…. Machine gun kills hundreds and more… swords?


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

One sword kills 20-30-
A bomb?
Man has increasingly gotten more violent and created weapons to equal it.
No getting around this.
2Tim 3:1-5


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2021)

ky55 said:


> Sorry Bullet,
> I think we posted similar thoughts at the same time.


No need to apologize to me bud. The truth is the truth no matter how many times it is said.


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## jiminbogart (Oct 9, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> Some find relief in "a plan', some find relief in a mystery.



And some find no relief at all.


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> One sword kills 20-30-
> A bomb?
> Man has increasingly gotten more violent and created weapons to equal it.
> No getting around this.
> 2Tim 3:1-5


You probably noticed that as warfare advanced so did tactics and weapons. Nobody lines up 20,000 men across from each other anymore because weapons have advanced to eliminate the need for sheer numbers.
But at the time the weapons of 2000+ years ago were as advanced and as good as the tactics called for. When 30,000 swords were bested by 30,000 arrows then someone thought of a way to lob flaming tar balls a quarter mile away.
Not a doubt that man is the absolute best at finding more effective ways to kill other men. But if you are stuck on 20,000 men dying in battle by being hacked to death is any less horrendous than a drone sending a missile through a window you are overlooking the necessary tactics of the time.
Machine guns changed war. No modern commander is sending thousands of men lined up shoulder to shoulder across an open field in modern battle.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 9, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> One sword kills 20-30-
> A bomb?
> Man has increasingly gotten more violent and created weapons to equal it.
> No getting around this.
> 2Tim 3:1-5


Timothy was experiencing the last days himself. Paul warned Timothy to stay away from those types mentioned in this passage of last days.

2 Timothy 3:9
But they will not get very far because, as in the case of those men, their folly will be clear to everyone.

I'm not doubting there may be terrible days during the end times but that's not what this passage is about.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 9, 2021)

After tragedy, could I witness on the power of prayer? Yes, it's not easy but I could and I have and I'll always try to.
From 1994 to 2001, ages 23 to 30, I experienced the worst period of my life during the time that should have been the best years of my life. I lost much of my family, suffered one failure after another at work, had failed relationships, and had many crisis's of faith. At one point, I was only a paycheck or two from being homeless. The conversations I had with the Lord were not always pleasant during that time. I had a lot of anger in me about nearly everything and had completely lost confidence in myself. I felt snakebit and thought that anything that I touched or got involved with was doomed to failure, because it had been for so long. I couldn't go home because there was no home left to go to. There was no place left to go. Despite all of that, I kept praying, not always respectfully, not always humbly, sometimes angrily, but I kept praying. Finally, things started changing, and they started changing fast. New relationships, new friends, new job, lots of success, and my confidence returned and I've never looked back. Prayer got me through those hard times, plain and simple.


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## kmh1031 (Oct 9, 2021)

That scripture highlights conditions in last days of people 
Luke and Matt highlight wars and other items


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## ky55 (Oct 9, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> After tragedy, could I witness on the power of prayer? Yes, it's not easy but I could and I have and I'll always try to.
> From 1994 to 2001, ages 23 to 30, I experienced the worst period of my life during the time that should have been the best years of my life. I lost much of my family, suffered one failure after another at work, had failed relationships, and had many crisis's of faith. At one point, I was only a paycheck or two from being homeless. The conversations I had with the Lord were not always pleasant during that time. I had a lot of anger in me about nearly everything and had completely lost confidence in myself. I felt snakebit and thought that anything that I touched or got involved with was doomed to failure, because it had been for so long. I couldn't go home because there was no home left to go to. There was no place left to go. Despite all of that, I kept praying, not always respectfully, not always humbly, sometimes angrily, but I kept praying. Finally, things started changing, and they started changing fast. New relationships, new friends, new job, lots of success, and my confidence returned and I've never looked back. Prayer got me through those hard times, plain and simple.



That’s a great story, and I’m glad it worked out well for you. 
Did you sit flat on your butt for those 7 years and wait for a higher power to answer your prayers and change your situation for the better?
Did you do nothing for yourself to change your situation…..for 7 years?


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 9, 2021)

ky55 said:


> That’s a great story, and I’m glad it worked out well for you.
> Did you sit flat on your butt for those 7 years and wait for a higher power to answer your prayers and change your situation for the better?
> Did you do nothing for yourself to change your situation…..for 7 years?


There wasn't anything I was doing or not doing that caused my misfortune. It was just a perfect storm in my life of a flood, cancer in my family, brain aneurysm in my family, other deaths in my family, a good job gone bad, some bad coworkers, some bad relationships, and a bad financial situation after dealing with all these misfortunes that often had costs that I had to address. Was I sitting on my butt? No, I was trying to live my life as best as I could under the circumstances. Was I waiting on a higher power to answer my prayers? Yes, I was, but I knew that meant I had to do my part as well and work towards a better life too.


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## NE GA Pappy (Oct 9, 2021)

You can pray all you want, and that is a great thing, but at some point you have to be like David and pick up those stones and go after Goliath


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## ky55 (Oct 9, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> There wasn't anything I was doing or not doing that caused my misfortune. It was just a perfect storm in my life of a flood, cancer in my family, brain aneurysm in my family, other deaths in my family, a good job gone bad, some bad coworkers, some bad relationships, and a bad financial situation after dealing with all these misfortunes that often had costs that I had to address. Was I sitting on my butt? No, I was trying to live my life as best as I could under the circumstances. Was I waiting on a higher power to answer my prayers? Yes, I was, but I knew that meant I had to do my part as well and work towards a better life too.





RoosterTodd said:


> Was I sitting on my butt? No, I was trying to live my life as best as I could under the circumstances. Was I waiting on a higher power to answer my prayers? Yes, I was, but I knew that meant I had to do my part as well and work towards a better life too.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 10, 2021)

kmh1031 said:


> None at my house either…. Check the origin (crucifix, cross) of it.
> 
> More violent then than now?? check the world wars, nuclear weapons, much more…. Ethnic cleansing and more… how many died in these?
> And yes false religion has been the cause of many a death u are correct on that
> Revelation calls them (Babylon the great) the “killer of the prophets” meaning the world of false religion


Better weapons doesn't equal a more savage populace. We don't live in a constant state of warfare now like folks did back in the day. We don't kill people of other races on sight. We don't have horrendous public executions. Vikings aren't raiding up and down the coastlines, and tribes of barbarians from the mainland interior. Opposing empires aren't wholesale bent on violently conquering the whole known world as a way of life. The average person nowadays has never killed someone or saw anyone killed, I doubt if that was the case back then. 
Think back just two hundred years or less here in our country. War after war. Public duels over disagreements. Common massacres of whites by Indians and Indians by whites. You could and would be killed for setting foot in the wrong place. With no consequences for the killers. Pirates raiding the coasts, along with warships from several different nations. Walls around towns and cannons to defend them. Public hangings that folks took their kids out to see. Just a few examples, and that hasn't been that long ago. Nukes don't make us individually more brutal and violent at all. I would guess that right now is the least violent and brutal people have ever been, because we aren't having to fight for our lives and resources all the time.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 10, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> After tragedy, could I witness on the power of prayer? Yes, it's not easy but I could and I have and I'll always try to.
> From 1994 to 2001, ages 23 to 30, I experienced the worst period of my life during the time that should have been the best years of my life. I lost much of my family, suffered one failure after another at work, had failed relationships, and had many crisis's of faith. At one point, I was only a paycheck or two from being homeless. The conversations I had with the Lord were not always pleasant during that time. I had a lot of anger in me about nearly everything and had completely lost confidence in myself. I felt snakebit and thought that anything that I touched or got involved with was doomed to failure, because it had been for so long. I couldn't go home because there was no home left to go to. There was no place left to go. Despite all of that, I kept praying, not always respectfully, not always humbly, sometimes angrily, but I kept praying. Finally, things started changing, and they started changing fast. New relationships, new friends, new job, lots of success, and my confidence returned and I've never looked back. Prayer got me through those hard times, plain and simple.




That was a terrible time during those years you mention. From about February 1996 till April-May 1997, most of that time is still a blank to me. So many things I don`t recall and I`m not sure I want to remember. I was so full of hate, anger, and confusion that I was a danger to myself and anybody around me. I was very lucky to have friends and what little family we have left that tried to steer me right, and to stay away from me when I went into a rage.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 10, 2021)

Nicodemus said:


> That was a terrible time during those years you mention. From about February 1996 till April-May 1997, most of that time is still a blank to me. So many things I don`t recall and I`m not sure I want to remember. I was so full of hate, anger, and confusion that I was a danger to myself and anybody around me. I was very lucky to have friends and what little family we have left that tried to steer me right, and to stay away from me when I went into a rage.


Yes, I know about rage, hate, anger, and confusion. I went through it for 7 years until I finally overcame it, by the grace of God.


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## Spotlite (Oct 10, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> So sorry for your loss right now.


Thanks Art!


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 12, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would guess that people and civilization then was actually a hundred times more violent and brutal than it is now.


 
yes, across the board most societies (and the world in general) gets less brutal and more civilized over time regardless of what religions they follow. That said at any time incredible politically and religiously motivated violence can flare up but secular societies are no better or worse than religious societies. There are many factors at play, and religion isn't always that big a factor.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 12, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> yes, across the board most societies (and the world in general) gets less brutal and more civilized over time regardless of what religions they follow. That said at any time incredible politically and religiously motivated violence can flare up but secular societies are no better or worse than religious societies. There are many factors at play, and religion isn't always that big a factor.


Yes, if religion had never even been thought of, humans would have found another reason to kill each other. There will always be competition over something from resources to political power. The two last people on the planet will argue over who's the boss.


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## 7 point (Oct 13, 2021)

As a deacon I pray over people with all kinds of medical issues and one thing to keep in mind is that going home with jesus is the ultimate healing.


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## ky55 (Oct 14, 2021)

https://inspirationcampmeeting.com/...MIjNWu28HJ8wIVn8mUCR0kIAkGEAAYASAAEgIArvD_BwE


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## 660griz (Oct 14, 2021)

7 point said:


> As a deacon I pray over people with all kinds of medical issues and one thing to keep in mind is that going home with jesus is the ultimate healing.



So, are you saying that getting better or death is a win/win? That is hilarious and sad at the same time. Glad you are not a doctor.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 14, 2021)

7 point said:


> As a deacon I pray over people with all kinds of medical issues and one thing to keep in mind is that going home with jesus is the ultimate healing.


First - I'm assuming when you pray over people with medical issues, you are praying that they beat those medical issues. (Could be a wrong assumption.)
Do you feel/recognize the contradiction of that if you truly believe that going home with Jesus is the ultimate healing?


----------



## 7 point (Oct 14, 2021)

There is two kinds of healing one they beat the sickness and the other they go home with jesus.  As the bible says the blind will see the lame will walk ...... healed.


----------



## 7 point (Oct 14, 2021)

660griz said:


> So, are you saying that getting better or death is a win/win? That is hilarious and sad at the same time. Glad you are not a doctor.


I take it you haven't read your bible in a while. Of course I want folks to live a full and healthy life but as a believer the alternative is a home with jesus.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 14, 2021)

7 point said:


> I take it you haven't read your bible in a while. Of course I want folks to live a full and healthy life but as a believer the alternative is a home with jesus.



Most of us here have spent more time reading our bibles than you could imagine. That’s the reason we are here in the A/A forum. 
I want to be young, good-looking, and rich, but I recognize the difference between reality and wishful thinking.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 15, 2021)

7 point said:


> I take it you haven't read your bible in a while. Of course I want folks to live a full and healthy life but as a believer the alternative is a home with jesus.


I know a back peddle when I see it. You are correct. I haven't read the bible recently. Have there been updates? Last I heard, the faith of the person praying had no bearing on whether or not the target of the prayer went to be with Jesus. 

You know what you said. Just own it. You don't throw in 'ULTIMATE HEALING' and then casually brush that off as, of course folks go to heaven, read your bible. 

My question was, do you consider getting better or death, a win/win? Or, do you consider death to be the greatest gift since you can be with Jesus? Do you ever pray for folks to die? Even if they are feeling fine but, you just want to do them a favor. 

I am not saying it is a bad thing. I appreciate the conviction. Lots of religious folks talk a good game about heaven and can't wait to be with Jesus but, then do everything in their power to postpone that meeting.


----------



## 7 point (Oct 15, 2021)

I understand where your coming from with the talking a good game and postponing the meeting.  Of course I dont pray for people to die .it is a win win for believers I wasnt trying to start a argument just trying to answer the above question from a christain stand point.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 15, 2021)

7 point said:


> I understand where your coming from with the talking a good game and postponing the meeting.  Of course I dont pray for people to die .it is a win win for believers I wasnt trying to start a argument just trying to answer the above question from a christain stand point.


The audience in here is comprised mostly of Christians and Former Christians. Most know the rules. Most have read the book. Many of the agnostics and atheists have shown to be very knowledgeable about not only the contents of the bible but the worldly history of how the contents got there. A good apologetic has a way of taking what is in the bible and explaining it in layman's terms and can answer questions without just quoting a verse and using the bible as it's own source. The best Apologetics in here can back up their claims with real world data instead of thinking that an assertive claim is true just because they said it.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2021)

jiminbogart said:


> And some find no relief at all.




We suffer not from events in out lives, but from our judgements about them."

--Epictitus


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2021)

oldfella1962 said:


> yes, across the board most societies (and the world in general) gets less brutal and more civilized over time regardless of what religions they follow. That said at any time incredible politically and religiously motivated violence can flare up but secular societies are no better or worse than religious societies. There are many factors at play, and religion isn't always that big a factor.



I might softly disagree.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-1101-zuckerman-violence-secularism-20151101-story.html

Yes. There are many, many other factors to consider, but religiosity often plays a role in violence, excluding the Jains and the Amish.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 15, 2021)

660griz said:


> I know a back peddle when I see it. You are correct. I haven't read the bible recently. Have there been updates? Last I heard, the faith of the person praying had no bearing on whether or not the target of the prayer went to be with Jesus.
> 
> You know what you said. Just own it. You don't throw in 'ULTIMATE HEALING' and then casually brush that off as, of course folks go to heaven, read your bible.
> 
> ...




"I've heard prayers for healing go something like "Please heal so and so, but if it is your will, Lord, Please take so and so home to end their suffering".  

Win/Win

No matter what happens, the prayer worked.  Unless so and so gets even worse and their suffering compounds but they don't die. The answer to that one is "His ways are not our ways" and "It's all part of the beautiful, mysterious plan (even or especially the relentless suffering)."


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 15, 2021)

@7 point , I appreciate what you're trying to do, but you're wasting your time in this particular forum.
Matthew 7:6 & 10:14


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 16, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> @7 point , I appreciate what you're trying to do, but you're wasting your time in this particular forum.
> Matthew 7:6 & 10:14


Wouldnt that depend on what he's trying to accomplish? 
If he's just wanting to convey the Christian standpoint then he's being successful -


> just trying to answer the above question from a christain stand point.


If he's trying to get us to believe in (G)gods.... then yeah, probably wasting his time.
Only the (G)god is going to accomplish that.


----------



## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2021)

An interesting subject would be “why prayers go unanswered” or at least “not answered the way I want” - Depending on how you view things from one of the AAA eyes.

Maybe someone will throw it out there for discussion.

Instead of being in the woods today I am laying my Brother to rest after two weeks of rocky road in ICU with liver failure. I think we ran on a total of 20 hours sleep in 14 days.

@bullethead THANK YOU for your message the other day! I really appreciate that


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> Instead of being in the woods today I am laying my Brother to rest after two weeks of rocky road in ICU with liver failure. I think we ran on a total of 20 hours sleep in 14 days.


My condolences to your family. I lost a brother last year on his birthday. I have a good understanding of all the thoughts you are working through.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 16, 2021)

Spotlite said:


> An interesting subject would be “why prayers go unanswered” or at least “not answered the way I want” - Depending on how you view things from one of the AAA eyes.
> 
> Maybe someone will throw it out there for discussion.
> 
> ...



I never know what to say at times like this, just know my heart goes out to you and your family.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 18, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> @7 point , I appreciate what you're trying to do, but you're wasting your time in this particular forum.
> Matthew 7:6 & 10:14


So, you are saying that we're all pigs?


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 18, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> So, you are saying that we're all pigs?


Not all but there's a few I wonder about.  

I posted that because I've had atheist accuse me of not being a very good Christian for not continuing to engage with them after they ridiculed me on here. I pointed out that on the contrary, I was acting very Christian. The Bible says very clearly to not waste your time on those that would ridicule and instead move on to those who genuinely have questions and are interested in answers but just can't make up their mind.
I kind of started seeing this thread heading in that direction from the posts of a few.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 18, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> Not all but there's a few I wonder about.
> 
> I posted that because I've had atheist accuse me of not being a very good Christian for not continuing to engage with them after they ridiculed me on here. I pointed out that on the contrary, I was acting very Christian. The Bible says very clearly to not waste your time on those that would ridicule and instead move on to those who genuinely have questions and are interested in answers but just can't make up their mind.
> I kind of started seeing this thread heading in that direction from the posts of a few.


I'm not sure that I know who are the atheists on here and who are agnostics.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Oct 18, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> Not all but there's a few I wonder about.
> 
> I posted that because I've had atheist accuse me of not being a very good Christian for not continuing to engage with them after they ridiculed me on here. I pointed out that on the contrary, I was acting very Christian. The Bible says very clearly to not waste your time on those that would ridicule and instead move on to those who genuinely have questions and are interested in answers but just can't make up their mind.
> I kind of started seeing this thread heading in that direction from the posts of a few.


Don't always take as ridicule discussion from someone who doesn't believe the same as you. I have seen a lot of spirited discussions in here, but very little ridicule from either viewpoint.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 18, 2021)

NCHillbilly said:


> Don't always take as ridicule discussion from someone who doesn't believe the same as you. I have seen a lot of spirited discussions in here, but very little ridicule from either viewpoint.


I must admit that my feelings are influenced by many previous threads and what was said in those threads by some of the posters on this thread as well. But, I won't dwell on that.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 19, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> I must admit that my feelings are influenced by many previous threads and what was said in those threads by some of the posters on this thread as well. But, I won't dwell on that.



Rooster, what would you define as ridicule?
Do you think everybody should respect your beliefs?


----------



## ky55 (Oct 20, 2021)




----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 20, 2021)

ky55 said:


> Rooster, what would you define as ridicule?
> Do you think everybody should respect your beliefs?


Sorry, but as I said, I'm not going to dwell on this or discuss it further.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2021)

I don't really think it would be wrong for a Christian to  proselytize  in this forum if he is being lead by God to do so. Perhaps some see the Great Commission as commanding them to do so.

That being said is what starts out as that soon morphs into pride. Then that person regardless of what forum or what faith changes the discussion to being about self and not God. 
More or less a competition as to who can win the argument or debate. Not really trying to teach or learn any more.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 20, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't really think it would be wrong for a Christian to  proselytize  in this forum if he is being lead by God to do so. Perhaps some see the Great Commission as commanding them to do so.
> 
> That being said is what starts out as that soon morphs into pride. Then that person regardless of what forum or what faith changes the discussion to being about self and not God.
> More or less a competition as to who can win the argument or debate. Not really trying to teach or learn any more.


How does someone know they are being led by the God of the religion they belong to? Or any god at all?


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## ambush80 (Oct 20, 2021)

bullethead said:


> How does someone know they are being led by the God of the religion they belong to? Or any god at all?




"And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
Then the piper will lead us to reason"

"Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know
The piper's calling you to join him
Dear lady, can you hear the wind blow? And did you know
Your stairway lies on the whispering wind?"


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## bullethead (Oct 20, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> "And it's whispered that soon if we all call the tune
> Then the piper will lead us to reason"
> 
> "Your head is humming and it won't go, in case you don't know
> ...


Big Zeppelin fan


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2021)

bullethead said:


> Big Zeppelin fan




What do you think of Greta Van Fleet (Led Millenials, as I call them)?  Ever heard Rival Sons?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What do you think of Greta Van Fleet (Led Millenials, as I call them)?  Ever heard Rival Sons?


What about The American Led Zeppelin "Cactus"?


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2021)

ambush80 said:


> What do you think of Greta Van Fleet (Led Millenials, as I call them)?  Ever heard Rival Sons?


I have some of their music on my playlist. I cannot say that I have heard Rival Sons


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2021)

The Circle does a lot of Zeppelin covers with Jason Bonham on drums. Sammy Hagar has a good Zeppelin voice.
Their Live At Your Service Album is good. Mix of Van Halen, Sammy and Zeppelin tunes


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## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2021)

Artfuldodger said:


> What about The American Led Zeppelin "Cactus"?



I had never heard of them.  Just looked them up.  More like straight blues.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 22, 2021)

bullethead said:


> I have some of their music on my playlist. I cannot say that I have heard Rival Sons



When I heard this guy sing the first note in this song the hair on the back of my neck stood up.  They are a "manufactured" band like Led Zeppelin.  I think the guitarist's interesting phrasing is similar to Page's.






This one is a good soundtrack for heavy work like plowing or framing.






I always thought David Coverdale could pull off Zeppelin.


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## bullethead (Oct 22, 2021)

Good jams.
Ann Wilson/Heart have some good Zeppelin covers. Dream Theater does some great Zep covers so. Their version of Deep Purples Perfect Strangers is incredible.


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## ky55 (Oct 23, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> Sorry, but as I said, I'm not going to dwell on this or discuss it further.



You don’t need to apologize. 
Lots of folks make assertions they can’t support down here on the A/A forum.  
They just make their assertions and offer no support at all.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 23, 2021)

ky55 said:


> You don’t need to apologize.
> Lots of folks make assertions they can’t support down here on the A/A forum.
> They just make their assertions and offer no support at all.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Oct 23, 2021)

ky55 said:


> You don’t need to apologize.
> Lots of folks make assertions they can’t support down here on the A/A forum.
> They just make their assertions and offer no support at all.


I don't need to support my assertions. They're self evident. I'll edit to add that I've gone back and read quite a few of your posts on this forum and others. It would be best if you put me on your ignore list and I'm putting you on mine. I won't be associating with you.


----------



## ky55 (Oct 23, 2021)

RoosterTodd said:


> I don't need to support my assertions. They're self evident. I'll edit to add that I've gone back and read quite a few of your posts on this forum and others. It would be best if you put me on your ignore list and I'm putting you on mine. I won't be associating with you.



Top of the page:

*“Atheists/Agnostics/Apologetics*
A place to discuss why you believe what you believe or why you don't”


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## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

Prayer always works when you count the hits and ignore the misses.


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## DOUG 281 (Mar 30, 2022)

prayers work it is in the hand of GOD. IF it is your time to go you are gone. GOD put us here for a reason. we need to be ready to go because we can be called out at any time


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## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2022)

ky55 said:


> Rooster, what would you define as ridicule?
> Do you think everybody should respect your beliefs?


Not my question but I don’t think folks have to respect my beliefs anymore than I have to respect theirs or their non belief.

Respect / disrespect is a two way street.


----------



## NCHillbilly (Mar 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Not my question but I don’t think folks have to respect my beliefs anymore than I have to respect theirs or their non belief.
> 
> Respect / disrespect is a two way street.


I don't think it's a good thing if you automatically cancel anybody whose religious beliefs differ from yours. It demonstrates a lack of mental breadth.


----------



## Spotlite (Mar 30, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> I don't think it's a good thing if you automatically cancel anybody whose religious beliefs differ from yours. It demonstrates a lack of mental breadth.


I agree.


----------



## buckpasser (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Prayer always works when you count the hits and ignore the misses.



His will be done. It doesn’t hurt to ask, like a child might a parent, but Daddy knows best.  Have you ever prayed and had it go unanswered?


----------



## ky55 (Mar 30, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Not my question but I don’t think folks have to respect my beliefs anymore than I have to respect theirs or their non belief.
> 
> Respect / disrespect is a two way street.



Yes, but on the other side of the coin, you can always go back and read the posts of folks on this forum, and if you don’t agree with them you can put those folks on “ignore” so you don’t have to deal with beliefs or non-beliefs that don’t agree with yours.
It makes it really easy if you believe that your assertions are self evident.
??


----------



## ky55 (Mar 30, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> His will be done. It doesn’t hurt to ask, like a child might a parent, but Daddy knows best.  Have you ever prayed and had it go unanswered?



Yes, no, maybe.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 30, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Prayer always works when you count the hits and ignore the misses.



This opinion is akin to a shrimp boat crewman offering flight lessons.  Hope you'll pardon me if I look elsewhere for an informed opinion.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 30, 2022)

Prayers always work.  The problem is most people use prayer to align God up with their will, their gimme list, their wishes and desires and when God doesn't deliver well, he's a bad God or he doesn't exist at all or just another Santa gone bad.  

The goal of prayer is to align oneself up with God's will.   That prayer works.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Mar 30, 2022)

I don't put people on my ignore list because they don't agree with my beliefs. It's not about respecting or disrespecting other people's beliefs. It's about being respectful to other people regardless of their beliefs. If I read a person's history of posts and see repeated instances of them being rude, they're not worth my time and I won't associate with them. That's why quite a few posters on this forum are on my ignore list.


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## DOUG 281 (Mar 30, 2022)

pray for our needs not our wants


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## SemperFiDawg (Mar 30, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I don't put people on my ignore list because they don't agree with my beliefs. It's not about respecting or disrespecting other people's beliefs. It's about being respectful to other people regardless of their beliefs. If I read a person's history of posts and see repeated instances of them being rude, they're not worth my time and I won't associate with them.



You could probably make a pretty good case that regardless of what is being discussed or who is discussing it, that if someone has to resort to disparaging the other then either the one disparaging doesn't have a rational point, they are incapable of discussing it intelligently or both.  I have no problem ignoring a person who repeatedly demonstrates that behavior.  That type of person has absolutely nothing to offer and never will.


----------



## The Original Rooster (Mar 30, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You could probably make a pretty good case that regardless of what is being discussed or who is discussing it, that if someone has to resort to disparaging the other then either the one disparaging doesn't have a rational point, they are incapable of discussing it intelligently or both.  I have no problem ignoring a person who repeatedly demonstrates that behavior.  That type of person has absolutely nothing to offer and never will.


My experience on this part of the forum is that some on here aren't interested in "discussing" even though that's what they call it. They're here to verbally abuse within the rules of the forum those that answer the questions that are asked. In short, they don't want answers, they want targets.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This opinion is akin to a shrimp boat crewman offering flight lessons.  Hope you'll pardon me if I look elsewhere for an informed opinion.





SemperFiDawg said:


> You could probably make a pretty good case that regardless of what is being discussed or who is discussing it, that if someone has to resort to disparaging the other then either the one disparaging doesn't have a rational point, they are incapable of discussing it intelligently or both.  I have no problem ignoring a person who repeatedly demonstrates that behavior.  That type of person has absolutely nothing to offer and never will.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 30, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I don't put people on my ignore list because they don't agree with my beliefs. It's not about respecting or disrespecting other people's beliefs. It's about being respectful to other people regardless of their beliefs. If I read a person's history of posts and see repeated instances of them being rude, they're not worth my time and I won't associate with them. That's why quite a few posters on this forum are on my ignore list.



Good for you. 
There are “quite a few posters” on this forum who will never bother you with their opinions that differ from yours. 
But I’m on “ignore” so you’ll never see this post and it won’t matter anyway.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 30, 2022)

The efficacy of prayer can easily be put to the test but when challenged believers show the least interest in doing so. If prayer worked as advertised the children’s cancer hospitals would be emptied in short order. That’s not gods will you say? Then you worship a cruel and capricious god.


----------



## ky55 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> The efficacy of prayer can easily be put to the test but when challenged believers show the least interest in doing so. If prayer worked as advertised the children’s cancer hospitals would be emptied in short order. That’s not gods will you say? Then you worship a cruel and capricious god.



I would rather send our monthly donation to St. Jude’s than pray for a cure.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> View attachment 1143643



LOL.  That's funny.  I don't care who you are.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> If prayer worked as advertised ....



 Well I guess the gullibility of the audience has a lot to do with how well the advertisement works, not to mention how factually accurate the ad actually is, but you've built a nice strawman.  I guess it's yours to burn down.  I'll even help you.  Yes all of us believers are nothing but gullible idiots with no ability to recognize and interpret reality.  That's only within the realm of the Athiest/Agnostics.  THEY are the true intellectual superiors.  Only THEY interpret reality accurately.  (How am I doing?) yawn.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes all of us believers are nothing but gullible idiots with no ability to recognize and interpret reality.



There is plenty that informs us that's not the case. Like the fact most believers will go running to the doctor when their life hangs in the balance.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> There is plenty that informs us that's not the case. Like the fact most believers will go running to the doctor when their life hangs in the balance.



And yet when an otherwise rational being professes a belief in the supernatural, he is labeled as one who has cast aside all rational thought for the sake of choosing to believe in fairy tales.  Have you ever considered the hubris required to make such an assertion?  I suspect the answer to that is an unflinching  "Yes."


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And yet when an otherwise rational being professes a belief in the supernatural, he is labeled as one who has cast aside all rational thought for the sake of choosing to believe in fairy tales.  Have you ever considered the hubris required to make such an assertion?  I suspect the answer to that is an unflinching  "Yes."



The distinction is casting aside rational thought vs never demonstrating any capacity for it in the first place. That's why it works best if you get them when they are young before critical thinking skills are well developed. It's a root kit for the brain.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And yet when an otherwise rational being professes a belief in the supernatural, he is labeled as one who has cast aside all rational thought for the sake of choosing to believe in fairy tales.  Have you ever considered the hubris required to make such an assertion?  I suspect the answer to that is an unflinching  "Yes."



I would replace all with "some, and more than they should,"


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

What is the harm in me believing that the oak tree in my yard is telling me how to live, vote, think of others?  And what is the harm in me teaching my child to believe the same?

Is that a strawman or a valid analogy?  Are "the voices in my head" a better source?


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 31, 2022)

SemperFiDawg said:


> And yet when an otherwise rational being professes a belief in the supernatural, he is labeled as one who has cast aside all rational thought for the sake of choosing to believe in fairy tales.  Have you ever considered the hubris required to make such an assertion?  I suspect the answer to that is an unflinching  "Yes."



and some the ones that don't believe there is a God, believe in extraterrestrial life out there in the big, broad universe because we just can't be the only inhabited planet.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> and some the ones that don't believe there is a God, believe in extraterrestrial life out there in the big, broad universe because we just can't be the only inhabited planet.



There are different levels and kinds of belief.  Some of them are more consequential than others.  Some are based on hard facts and some on probability.  Some are based on feelings.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

NE GA Pappy said:


> and some the ones that don't believe there is a God, believe in extraterrestrial life out there in the big, broad universe because we just can't be the only inhabited planet.


I think a big difference might be that the unbelievers dont try to insist what E.T. says, thinks, wants, had for lunch etc.


----------



## WaltL1 (Mar 31, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> What is the harm in me believing that the oak tree in my yard is telling me how to live, vote, think of others?  And what is the harm in me teaching my child to believe the same?
> 
> Is that a strawman or a valid analogy?  Are "the voices in my head" a better source?


Kind of depends on what the tree or the voices in your head are telling you.


----------



## atlashunter (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I think a big difference might be that the unbelievers dont try to insist what E.T. says, thinks, wants, had for lunch etc.



Another big difference is we already know life exists at least one place in the universe. Gods not so much.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> Another big difference is we already know life exists at least one place in the universe. Gods not so much.




Excellent point.


----------



## ambush80 (Mar 31, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> Kind of depends on what the tree or the voices in your head are telling you.



Absolutely.  If a tree or a bush, burning or otherwise, tells me to to treat you as I do myself and to forgive you if you trespass against me, wouldn't you want me to continue to listen to that tree?  What's the worst thing that you think the Western, modern version of Christian doctrine instructs people to do?   I don't really have many gripes with the present version except for the fact that powerful political figures take advice from religious leaders and that they stand in the way of medical and scientific advancements sometimes.


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## kmh1031 (Mar 31, 2022)

Running to the Dr is normal, regardless of beliefs… unless one is an offshoot of some religion that does not believe in medical attention 
All agree no one wants to die… the reason is god has put immortality in our hearts… as we were supposed to live forever, here on earth.. but Rom 5:12 shows why we die 
but also as we appreciate the Bible’s view on sanctity of life ….. 
but this is another discussion for another day for me at least


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## kmh1031 (Mar 31, 2022)

Contrary to the religions of today.. neutrality for gods people on politics is taught in the bible for gods people…
False religion has always aligned itself in some form or fashion with politics,mostly to envoke their beliefs on politicians and also for the power. 
That is why false religion, is called the great harlot Babylon the Great in Revelation…


----------



## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> All agree no one wants to die…



Not necessarily true. The church had to make suicide a severe sin to keep from losing folks that really wanted to get to heaven and skip all this suffering.


----------



## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Contrary to the religions of today.. neutrality for gods people on politics is taught in the bible for gods people…
> False religion has always aligned itself in some form or fashion with politics,mostly to envoke their beliefs on politicians and also for the power.
> That is why false religion, is called the great harlot Babylon the Great in Revelation…


I want to make sure I understand -
Are you contending that Christianity has always seperated itself from politics and that only false religions do that?


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## kmh1031 (Apr 1, 2022)

Yes…. Those that follow Jesus example of neutrality are no part of the world separate themselves from all politics.
true Christian’s, gods people  they obey the laws of the land except when they conflict with gods laws 

However they do not take a stand, politically or endorse any candidate. 

Note Dan 2:44 and Ps 2:2 so we see that the kingdoms, and govts are going to be destroyed and are actually in conflict with God and his son and kingdom.

Now… the Scriptures in Rev talk about Babylon the great which represents ALL the false religions ( not just Christianity) but all these false religions have committed “figurative immorality”with the govts of the world.
Looking back… it is very hard to disprove this point… 
and these will be destroyed as the govts of the world will turn on ALL religions in near future… as per Revelation.


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## OwlRNothing (Apr 1, 2022)

I can see why not many people of faith join in these conversations. Can you guys? 

probably not.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

kmh1031 said:


> Yes…. Those that follow Jesus example of neutrality are no part of the world separate themselves from all politics.
> true Christian’s, gods people  they obey the laws of the land except when they conflict with gods laws
> 
> However they do not take a stand, politically or endorse any candidate.
> ...


I understand what scripture says. But Im not talking about scripture. Im talking about Christianity as an "organization". 
How do you think Blue Laws etc came to be? By Christianity not getting involved in Politics?


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## 660griz (Apr 1, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> I can see why not many people of faith join in these conversations. Can you guys?
> 
> probably not.


I can.


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## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> I can see why not many people of faith join in these conversations. Can you guys?
> 
> probably not.


I can see why people of faith dont join in.
I can see why people of faith do join in.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2022)

OwlRNothing said:


> I can see why not many people of faith join in these conversations. Can you guys?
> 
> probably not.


I see just the opposite, many people of faith "do" join in these conversations.


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## atlashunter (Apr 1, 2022)

WaltL1 said:


> I want to make sure I understand -
> Are you contending that Christianity has always seperated itself from politics and that only false religions do that?



I think the Roman Catholic Church missed that memo. Why is it called Roman again?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 1, 2022)

atlashunter said:


> I think the Roman Catholic Church missed that memo. Why is it called Roman again?


Thats what I was thinking.
Politics and Christianity have been bedmates from the beginning.


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## kmh1031 (Apr 1, 2022)

Yes u are right all of Christianity and other religions think that they are aligned with God..

All one has to do is look at their fruits…and the 5-8 key traits of the true religion that Jesus gave that would identify the true religion today… litmus test, and most all fail ….

He knew over the years..they would deviate, Satan would infiltrate and thus he left those identifying  marks for any to use… to identify the a true religion.. very simple test… few can stand which creates a clear path..

Many are on the road to destruction… Matt 7:14
How does this compare to the billions following the false teachings today for most all religions?
Few vs many?

If that is what u are basing ur non belief on religions today… I agree with u… as u are wise in that regard
As just a few are following the teachings of the Bible and Jesus


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## oldfella1962 (Apr 1, 2022)

660griz said:


> Not necessarily true. The church had to make suicide a severe sin to keep from losing folks that really wanted to get to heaven and skip all this suffering.



Well that didn't work for my mother-in-law. A couple of months ago she killed herself with an overdose of prescription medications.   Her husband died about 18 months ago and all she ever talked about since was dying so she could be with him in heaven. 
Mission accomplished.......maybe?


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## WaltL1 (Apr 2, 2022)

ambush80 said:


> Absolutely.  If a tree or a bush, burning or otherwise, tells me to to treat you as I do myself and to forgive you if you trespass against me, wouldn't you want me to continue to listen to that tree?  What's the worst thing that you think the Western, modern version of Christian doctrine instructs people to do?   I don't really have many gripes with the present version except for the fact that powerful political figures take advice from religious leaders and that they stand in the way of medical and scientific advancements sometimes.





> If a tree or a bush, burning or otherwise, tells me to to treat you as I do myself and to forgive you if you trespass against me, wouldn't you want me to continue to listen to that tree?


I would have to know more about how that person treats themselves. Some folks (most folks?) are their own worst enemy. 


> and to forgive you if you trespass against me,


Not sure.
Some of the most valuable lessons I have learned in life is precisely because I DIDNT "get away with it" and had to deal with the consequences. And who knows, that might include spending eternity roasting marshmallows over the big fire down below.


> What's the worst thing that you think the Western, modern version of Christian doctrine instructs people to do?   I don't really have many gripes with the present version


Probably that it promotes a "us vs. them" mentality. Which can go from pretty minor to pretty extreme depending on the person listening.


> they stand in the way of medical and scientific advancements sometimes.


I worry a little less about that in todays society. Slow down progress in some cases? Yes. But medical and scientific advances have always gotten around that and will continue to do so.


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