# Seeking help with first muzzleloader.



## joshb311 (Oct 4, 2011)

When my grandfather passed away I inherited a few of his guns and one of them is a CVA Bobcat sidelock. The barrel twist is 1:48 and is a .50 caliber. Any suggestions on propellants, ignition or round types? I hope to use it for a little deer hunting this year if I can get in a little practice time. I will be keeping shots to around 100 yards maximum range as the areas I hunt don't provide for a whole lot of distance shooting. 

Also, if there are any products that stand out as being particularly useful, I'd love to hear your suggestions. 

Thanks!


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## Nicodemus (Oct 4, 2011)

With that barrel twist, you can shoot either a patched round ball, or a Minie Ball type projectile.

Personally, I would try a  50 grain load of FFFg Dupont Goex blackpowder, with a .490 pure lead ball, with a ten thousandths thickness cotton cloth patch. If the rifle likes that load, I would stay with it. if not, move up 5 grains at a time, but do not exceed the manufacturers load chart.

With that 50 caliber, you can also try FFg blackpowder. i would start out with the same load in it too.


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## joshb311 (Oct 5, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> With that barrel twist, you can shoot either a patched round ball, or a Minie Ball type projectile.
> 
> Personally, I would try a  50 grain load of FFFg Dupont Goex blackpowder, with a .490 pure lead ball, with a ten thousandths thickness cotton cloth patch. If the rifle likes that load, I would stay with it. if not, move up 5 grains at a time, but do not exceed the manufacturers load chart.
> 
> With that 50 caliber, you can also try FFg blackpowder. i would start out with the same load in it too.



Thanks for the suggestions. I read a little of the owner's manual last night (downloaded a copy from CVA) and it says using the powerbelt rounds is ok. I am interested in those for a couple of reasons. No patches or lubes necessary and less cleaning between shots. Also, from what I can tell from reading about the powerbelts, it seems that they are more accurate. Any thoughts on the powerbelts and pyrodex? Upsides? Downsides?


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## one hogman (Oct 5, 2011)

You can try them but the Powerbelts will prob need a faster twist rate to stabalize them. Nic's advise is Good, as he has messed with those type guns a lot of years.


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## Nicodemus (Oct 5, 2011)

joshb311 said:


> Thanks for the suggestions. I read a little of the owner's manual last night (downloaded a copy from CVA) and it says using the powerbelt rounds is ok. I am interested in those for a couple of reasons. No patches or lubes necessary and less cleaning between shots. Also, from what I can tell from reading about the powerbelts, it seems that they are more accurate. Any thoughts on the powerbelts and pyrodex? Upsides? Downsides?





Can`t help there. I know absolutely nothin about any of the new modern stuff in muzzleloadin`. I`m strictly a traditionalist. I don`t even know what a powerbelt looks like, or seen pyrodex fired.


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## tv_racin_fan (Oct 5, 2011)

Josh I have a CVA Bobcat... I believe I run .490 ball and .015 patch.  I really need to try some thinner patches or smaller ball tho... it gets rather hard to load after a couple of rounds. I haven't worried about it so much, I swab between every round at the range since I believe in a hunting situation I'll be shooting a clean bore.

Real black powder will run better than any substitute in that rifle and is as easy or easier to clean. Buy a can of FFFg and go with it or try FFg and FFFg because your rifle will like one or the other better. Be aware that finding real black powder aint so easy, most gun shops and Wal Mart will not carry it, Bass Pro shops has it and you can order it online BUT the hazmat fee makes that a bit expensive. Don't just ask any ole salesman at any shop because some of them may not even be aware they carry real black powder (this is due to the regulations on handling and storage, it has to be stored in a magazine since it is classified as an explosive). IF you want to run Pyrodex just because it is so much simpler to find then you will have to figure out what your rifle needs to fire everytime with as little of lag as you can get.

I took Nic's advice and I use 70gr FFFg as my hunting load. I haven't sat down and worked on a more accurate load.

No matter what powder you use you must clean the rifle the same day as you shoot it !!! PERIOD !!!  I clean mine in the bath tub with warm water. I cut the top off a two liter soda bottle, fill it with warm water and sometimes a couple drops of dish washing liquid. Take the nipple off and set the breech end down in the bottle, wet a patch, run it in and out until water comes out the crown of the barrel. Repeat until the water is clear. I use a black powder compatible "lube" burnished in to protect from rust.


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## joshb311 (Oct 6, 2011)

tv_racin_fan said:


> .....No matter what powder you use you must clean the rifle the same day as you shoot it !!! PERIOD !!!  ....



Yep, I'm ok with the cleaning at the end of the day, I just am not too keen on the idea of cleaning between every shot or using the patches or lubes. I guess it's from years of cleaning modern firearms and the thought of that stuff getting cooked off of the patch and into the barrel. I am just looking to eliminate as many of the variables as possible and add a little simplicity where I can. For some reason I have this fear that I will end up getting the wrong sized patch slipped in or too much or too little lube or manage to get a patch stuck in the barrel because I messed up somewhere in the process. 

As for obtaining supplies, the Pyrodex and powerbelts were appealing for a number of reasons. Price, availability, consistency and simplicity. 

I may have to just get over some of my hangups and give it a go.


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## joshb311 (Oct 6, 2011)

Nicodemus said:


> With that barrel twist, you can shoot either a patched round ball, or a Minie Ball type projectile.
> 
> Personally, I would try a  50 grain load of FFFg Dupont Goex blackpowder, with a .490 pure lead ball, with a ten thousandths thickness cotton cloth patch. If the rifle likes that load, I would stay with it. if not, move up 5 grains at a time, but do not exceed the manufacturers load chart.
> 
> With that 50 caliber, you can also try FFg blackpowder. i would start out with the same load in it too.



I think I may give this recipe a try and then experiment with the pyrodex and powerbelts over time. Hopefully I will be able to find someone with a little time to spare at the range to teach me a little bit. 

Thanks so much for the help guys. It's most sincerely appreciated.


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## FrontierGander (Oct 6, 2011)

the bobcat is a great little rifle!

i used 80gr pyrodex RS with both patched round ball as well as the 295gr powerbelt aerotips.


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## tv_racin_fan (Oct 6, 2011)

You wont hurt the thing with the lubes as long as it is a black powder lube. I have used plain ole crisco... but olive oil or sweet oil and enough beezwax to make it semi solid is good. Heck olive oil alone aint bad at all. Many guys just use spit as the lube...

I have some power belts but have never shot em.. have some TC maxi balls that I aint ever shot either.. think I got some of them about 1986 or so. Thing is those other bullets are much more expensive than plain ole round ball.

Best I can do with a sabotted round is about $45 per 100... round ball is about $22 per 100... Powerbelts are about $20 per 20. And round ball has taken every animal that walks on the planet.


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## joshb311 (Oct 6, 2011)

tv_racin_fan said:


> You wont hurt the thing with the lubes as long as it is a black powder lube. I have used plain ole crisco... but olive oil or sweet oil and enough beezwax to make it semi solid is good. Heck olive oil alone aint bad at all. Many guys just use spit as the lube...
> 
> I have some power belts but have never shot em.. have some TC maxi balls that I aint ever shot either.. think I got some of them about 1986 or so. Thing is those other bullets are much more expensive than plain ole round ball.
> 
> Best I can do with a sabotted round is about $45 per 100... round ball is about $22 per 100... Powerbelts are about $20 per 20. And round ball has taken every animal that walks on the planet.



Yep, price was a hangup for me initially but I believe the difference in price may be offset by not having to deal with the patches, lubes, excessive cleaning, etc. I may decide otherwise after doing a little experimenting. I will be heading to pick up some items tomorrow and will hopefully get to go to the range this weekend.


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## tv_racin_fan (Oct 7, 2011)

If the desire is to avoid the cleaning issue then you bought the wrong type of weapon. 

What you need is a stone attached to a stick with some sort of fiber. Then all one needs do for cleaning is wipe the blood off and in fact ya aint gotta do that...

In fact running a lead or plated projectile without a patch might add to the cleaning. Sabotted or some other plastic enhanced projectile will mean you might have to deal with plastic fouling.


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## joshb311 (Oct 8, 2011)

tv_racin_fan said:


> If the desire is to avoid the cleaning issue then you bought the wrong type of weapon.
> 
> What you need is a stone attached to a stick with some sort of fiber. Then all one needs do for cleaning is wipe the blood off and in fact ya aint gotta do that...
> 
> In fact running a lead or plated projectile without a patch might add to the cleaning. Sabotted or some other plastic enhanced projectile will mean you might have to deal with plastic fouling.



Apparently you didn't read the orginal info I posted on here. I didn't buy this weapon. It was left to me by my grandfather who passed away. 

Stone attached to a stick for wiping away blood? I'm not planning on loading small animals into my bore to shoot so I don't think that blood buildup will be a problem.  Besides, common sense tells me not to run ANYTHING down a rifled bore that was not designed to go down it. 

As for the final part to your comment in regards to additional cleaning being brought about from using a round other than a ball and patch. According to something I read last night in the CVA owners manual for their sidelocks, PowerBelts are the PREFERRED round for all CVA muzzleloaders with a rifled barrel. 

No offense, but I wasn't looking for speculation. I can do plenty of that myself. I was looking for advice from those that have had experience with it. 

Thanks again everyone. I purchased the bulk of my supplies yesterday and will be proceeding to the range with my new box of powerbelts and flask of pyrodex. If anyone is interested, I'll let you guys know the results tonight or tomorrow.


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## FrontierGander (Oct 8, 2011)

patched round balls are very cheap. Go to walmart or joannes fabric store and buy the blue/white mattress ticking per yard and then just cut it up into strips. 

The powerbelts will do a darn good job in that rifle but as you said, expensive for target shooting.


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## tv_racin_fan (Oct 8, 2011)

Excuse me...

Dunno who told you that muzzle loaders had to be cleaned between rounds no matter what projectile was used or that patches or lubes was an issue. They lied to you, but you are more than free to shoot anything you like anyway you like.


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## joshb311 (Oct 8, 2011)

Overcast, windy and wonderful! Today was outstanding. I got to the range, prepped up with a 30gr squib load after snapping a percussion cap or two and then shortly after set to work with loading my first round. I was rather shaky at first and to be honest I took what seemed like forever to load the first shot up but I got it done. The round slid down the barrel quite easily first load although the fit definitely felt solid. I started with 85 grains of pyrodex and powerbelt 245 grain copper aerotip. First shot was high and left and about an inch off of the 12 x 12 inch target. Next round was on the target, but about 6 inches left and low. Round three was same on the elevation but I had drifted left about an inch. Round four hit about 4 in. low and 4 in. to the left of the bullseye. Round five was 1 in. high and 2 inches right. Round 6 was 1 inch high and 1 inch right and the seventh and final round had cut away the bottom left corner of the bullseye. The powerbelts performance seemed to improve as I shot more and the barrel became more fouled (just as the literature included with the bullets said it would). That and the nervousness had eased so my accuracy had improved as I got more comfortable with the gun. I was thoroughly impressed with the accuracy of this gun, round and pyro combination. Definitely exceeded my expectations. I picked up some round balls on the way home for "plinking" sometime but I will definitely be running the belts when I hit the woods hunting. 

Think I may have yet another new hobby. lol


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## Pats fan in GA (Oct 8, 2011)

glad you had fun. when i got my wolf in the spring just a fun time shooting it before I even tried to sight it in.. happy hunting


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## joshb311 (Oct 8, 2011)

Pats fan in GA said:


> glad you had fun. when i got my wolf in the spring just a fun time shooting it before I even tried to sight it in.. happy hunting



Thanks! I'm working with the old iron sights for now and hoping my aim will hold true. I don't plan on making any shots longer than 75 yards with this setup so hopefully all will work out well if I get an opportunity to take a deer worth shooting. I'm feeling fairly comfortable with it now and I'm eager to progress along and learn more about other round and charge combos.


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