# All Nations?



## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2017)

Something I've been reading about is how scripture addresses "all nations." Quite a bit a scripture about all nations as related to Israel.

It looks like all nations were enemies of Israel and or God. Eventually they were gathered and judged. Then at some point all nations worshiped or will worship God through Jesus.

Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2017)

Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

Luke 21:24 
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 

It's like the enemies of Israel were the enemies of God.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 5, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's like the enemies of Israel were the enemies of God.



Imagine that.  Enemies of God's chosen people end up being the enemies of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2017)

Somehow tied to my reading and scripture is the relation to the Jews being scattered withing these nations. The The Jewish diaspora.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Imagine that.  Enemies of God's chosen people end up being the enemies of God.



But how does it fit into the big picture of who God's chosen people ended up being after all? Maybe not who ended up being the chosen but who were always the chosen? At some point in time it went from Israel to all nations or maybe it was always "all nations." 

Just saying some believe Israel was never the chosen. I'm having a hard time reading Romans 11 and seeing that but many folks do see it as always being "all nations."


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2017)

Now the way I read it is eventually the nations, all nations, eventually worship God. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

Joel 3:1 In those days and at that time, when I restore the fortunes of Judah and Jerusalem,2 I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment against them concerning my inheritance, my people Israel, for they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land. 

Psalms 66:3-4
Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you.
4 "All the earth will worship You, And will sing praises to You; They will sing praises to Your name." Selah.

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Psalm 86:9
All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And they shall glorify Your name.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2017)

Eventually after all the nations are punished, they are saved. Eventually after Israel is punished, it is saved. It's like God punishes every nation and Israel and then saves every nation and Israel.

Romans 11:29-31
For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Hebrews 8:11-12
11No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more.”

Jeremiah 31:34
"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."

Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 5, 2017)

from Exodus 9 to Psalms 105, to Hebrews 11

all thru the Bible it says that God has chosen the jews to be his people. His chosen people, the apple of his eye, his own possession.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2017)

I guess one of my problems when reading scripture is dividing  scripture concerning nations with that of individuals. 

I see some scripture as related to the physical destruction of Jerusalem  and it's enemies  and some scripture as related to the salvation of Jerusalem and all the nations.
The few destructions of Jerusalem being different from the destructions of it's enemies and the salvation of Jerusalem being different than the salvation of all nations.

Again God destroys Jerusalem a few times for it's evilness or not following him and then he destroys Jerusalem's enemies at other times. 

Eventually saving Jerusalem and all nations. 

Matthew 24:14
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Mark 13:10
And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all the nations.

It's like it wasn't offered to "all nations" to begin with.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2017)

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Psalm 86:9
All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And they shall glorify Your name.

Ephesians 1:10
And this is the plan: At the right time he will bring everything together under the authority of Christ--everything in heaven and on earth.

So how do we separate individual's salvation from everlasting death from that of nation's salvation or Israel's salvation when we read scripture?
Is one a physical salvation as a nation and the other individual spiritual salvation? 

Scripture says all nations will worship God and all Israel will be saved yet we know that not all individuals will be saved.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 6, 2017)

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

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No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

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 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

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Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
6 In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct[a] your paths.

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 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.

And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.


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## formula1 (Aug 8, 2017)

*re:*

Revelation 7
9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!”


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2017)

Earlier in Revelation 7:4 is another account concerning only Jews. This account has some exact numbers as well;

Revelation 7:4
Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

We have this "all nations" thing but also there appears to still be an Israel thing that co-exists as well.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.  27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins."


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2017)

Revelation 15:4
Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."

Psalm 22:27 
“All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,..”

Isaiah 2:2 
“In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.”


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## gordon 2 (Aug 8, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Revelation 15:4
> Who will not fear you, Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed."
> 
> Psalm 22:27
> ...



Art it is clear to me that God made the Hebrews a special people. Jerusalem and Mount Horab will become very important to people of faith. It is possible to trace these places even before the Hebrews, that is with Abraham and the king of Salem for example. 

God made the Hebrews a special people because like us they are NOT special! They are backsliders and they are enamored with God their savior one day and the next day they chase after other gods... What is special about them is that God is special! In his relationship with them God reveals himself to the world and this is why people of faith throughout the world stream the Holy Land's high places and famous cities.

From Calvary to Salem... forever... the people of faith in all nations do stream to the Jewish high places.... in faith, in fact,  as God sends them...

Oh... I thought you might like this. It is off topic however...:


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## gordon 2 (Aug 8, 2017)

Art, were Judah and Isreal  holy nations or a holy nation? We seem to be... and also a people... if I understand this correctly:

1 Peter 2:

 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Art, were Judah and Isreal  holy nations or a holy nation? We seem to be... and also a people... if I understand this correctly:
> 
> 1 Peter 2:
> 
> ...



I liked the birds. Concerning Israel, I'm not even sure who that is as to who it was as explained in Romans 11 and Revelation 7:4.

I was more concentrated on "all nations" worshiping God when the Jewish thing entered my mind.

Still when I read scripture, I see God punishing Israel a few times and then I see God punishing the nations that are against Israel a few times. Different accounts and different times. 

Then at some point I see scriptures where God saves Israel and save "all nations." It's like he first has fury and then later forgiveness. I see this with nations and I see this concept with individuals. 

I see judgement for nations and I see judgement for individuals. I see salvation for nations and I see salvation for individuals.

I see physical salvation and I see spiritual salvation.

I'm not really looking for a right or wrong answer, just explaining what I see within scripture.

Lamentations 3:31-32
For no one is cast off by the Lord forever.
32Though he brings grief, he also shows compassion because of the greatness of his unfailing love.

Isaiah 57:16-18 
God’s anger is not permanent. Although He punishes man, He will heal, guide and restore comfort to him.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2017)

One thing I don't understand is why the Reformed believers don't talk much of the remnant. You'd think that would be right up their ally.

Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites is like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 11:5
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

Micah 7:18 
Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

Hebrews 8:12
For I will forgive their iniquities, and remember their sins no more.

Romans 11:25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Art maybe you will like this by Larry Siegle concerning the remnant and elect. 

*Believers Betrayed:  Sign of the Time?*

In one breath they were cheering and pledging their allegiance to support Joshua as the divinely appointed leader of Israel just after the death of Moses.  It was a joyful time as God's covenant nation marched across the Jordan river into the land of promise (Josh. 1:10, 11, 16-18).  Because of the typology involved Moses could not enter into the promised land anymore than the Old Covenant with Torah could continue beyond the "end of the age" in 70 CE when a stone was not left upon stone but was thrown down under the crushing weight and fury of the Roman invasion (Matt. 24:2; Mark 13:2; Luke 21:6).

Jesus warned his disciples, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near" (Luke 21:20).  This was the 'signal' for his followers to flee from the city and the unimaginable suffering and devastation that was sure to follow:  

"Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled" (Luke 21:21, 22).

Just as the Lord Jesus had foretold 37 years earlier, in 66 CE, the Roman Governor of Syria Cestius Gallus arrived with 30,000 troops ready for battle.  However, this young man wanted to avert the total devastation of Jerusalem but for some inexplicable reason decided to pull back the armies thus giving the Christians in the city the opportunity to flee to the mountains.   Even as Joel prophesied of the "last days" (Acts 2:16-21):  "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of Jehovah shall be delivered; for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those that escape, as Jehovah has said, and among the remnant those whom Jehovah call" (Joel 2:32).

The "gospel of Christ" (Rom, 1:16) became the measuring line that would separate the "sheep" from the "goats" and the "wheat from the "tares" (Matt. 13:30; 25:31-46).  It was not God choosing between them but rather the response to the gospel itself ministered both the "goodness" and "severity of God" (Rom. 11:22). 

The city was left alone for nearly four years and it is possible that some of the Christians were tempted to return to the area.  But Jesus prophecy came true fully and completely.  Titus was used to execute divine judgment on Israel, it was their wholesale rejection of God through the Messiah that sentenced them to "eternal destruction" -- cut off from the presence of God (Matt. 25:46).  It is estimated that more than 1.1 Million  Jews were trapped in the city and died as the result of the famine or other problems.

God's "purpose of the ages" (Eph. 3:11) was moving forward in the midst of persecution.  The "remnant" of those "called according to the election of grace" (Rom. 9:27; 11:5).  The intensity of the persecution became so bad, "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days" (Mark 13:20).  Betrayal often takes place among those who appear closest in our lives:  "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death(Matt. 10:21) .... "At that time many will fall away and will betray one another and hate one another (Matt. 24:10).

Sadly, many of those who lost their lives, not at the hands of the Roman armies, but through the betrayal of friends and family, pleading for their own lives to be spared but at the expense of others.  The events of 70 CE are not a cause for rejoicing or celebration, but rather a reminder that "the wages sin pays is death" (Rom. 6:23)--consequences of their own making.  God is love (I John 4:8), but this quality of God's nature does not place righteousness and holiness in a subservient position.  God *made* provision for those who were willing to repent and receive the "seasons of refreshing" that came from the presence of the Lord (Acts 3:19).

It is an obedient expression of faith that demonstrated the Sonship of Jesus and likewise for those who follow in His footsteps (Heb. 5:8, 9).


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

Well that only explains a short but important event in time. What about before and after that event as to predestination and election as it pertains to "all nations."

When were we as the world ever worshiping God through Jesus?

Psalm 22:27
“All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, and all the families of the nations will bow down before him,..”

Isaiah 2:2
“In the last days the mountain of the LORD’s temple will be established as chief among the mountains; it will be raised above the hills, and all nations will stream to it.”


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

This is interesting;

The intensity of the persecution became so bad, "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days" (Mark 13:20).

God's plan was going so well that he had to shorten his plan.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well that only explains a short but important event in time. What about before and after that event as to predestination and election as it pertains to "all nations."
> 
> When were we as the world ever worshiping God through Jesus?
> 
> ...



I think (all the families of the nation's)  and (all nations)  is in reference to the tribes of Israel. 
The elect were of every tribe,  and it was a gathering together of His elect.  This is one of the reasons the Gentiles were brought in,  because the diaspora were scattered about in the gentile lands. Establishing churches in Gentile lands brought the Gospel to those of the lost tribes... We see this in the letter to the Roman's.  Paul many times in Roman's is speaking directly to Hebrews,  while other times to Gentiles.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

so when was the "time of the gentile" finished, so that Christ could return?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I think (all the families of the nation's)  and (all nations)  is in reference to the tribes of Israel.
> The elect were of every tribe,  and it was a gathering together of His elect.  This is one of the reasons the Gentiles were brought in,  because the diaspora were scattered about in the gentile lands. Establishing churches in Gentile lands brought the Gospel to those of the lost tribes... We see this in the letter to the Roman's.  Paul many times in Roman's is speaking directly to Hebrews,  while other times to Gentiles.



Man, I was willing to make Christianity a little Jewish but your explanation makes it a lot Jewish. Gentiles were grafted in, in order to save the Jews living among them? God was only willing to graft in the Gentiles in order to save the Remnant living among them. 
That makes it appear that God's original plan was only for the Jews and that the Gentile grafting in was an afterthought plan by God as a way to get the scattered Jews.

Genesis 22:18
and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me."

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

Joel 3:2
I will gather all nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will put them on trial for what they did to my inheritance, my people Israel, because they scattered my people among the nations and divided up my land.

These "all nations" appear to be gentile as they will be judged for scattering the Jews.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

It still appears God first punishes(sour) and then forgives(sweet) when it comes to "all nations." I don't read scripture as all nations being just Jews.

Sour;
Zechariah 12:3
On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.

Luke 21:24
They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 

Sweet;
Psalms 66:3-4
Say to God, "How awesome are your deeds! So great is your power that your enemies cringe before you.
4 "All the earth will worship You, And will sing praises to You; They will sing praises to Your name." Selah.

Psalm 22:27
All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD, And all the families of the nations will worship before You.

Psalm 86:9
All nations whom You have made shall come and worship before You, O Lord, And they shall glorify Your name.

Jeremiah 3:17
At that time they will call Jerusalem The Throne of the LORD, and all nations will gather in Jerusalem to honor the name of the LORD. No longer will they follow the stubbornness of their evil hearts.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> so when was the "time of the gentile" finished, so that Christ could return?


Luke 21:
 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Man, I was willing to make Christianity a little Jewish but your explanation makes it a lot Jewish. Gentiles were grafted in, in order to save the Jews living among them? God was only willing to graft in the Gentiles in order to save the Remnant living among them.
> That makes it appear that God's original plan was only for the Jews and that the Gentile grafting in was an afterthought plan by God as a way to get the scattered Jews.
> 
> Genesis 22:18
> ...




You're misrepresenting what I said just a bit aren't you? 

"The elect were of every tribe, and it was a gathering together of His elect. This is one of the reasons the Gentiles were brought in, because the diaspora were scattered about in the gentile lands. "

How does "one of the reasons " become " only willing to graft in gentiles in order to save the remnant " ?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It still appears God first punishes(sour) and then forgives(sweet) when it comes to "all nations." I don't read scripture as all nations being just Jews.



Nor do I,  sometimes it includes Gentiles,  sometimes it doesn't.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

I think all nations means all nations.  Not just the jews, but the gentiles, and everyone else.  

How could God say in Gen 22.18 that though Abrahams offspring all the nations would be blessed.

It makes no since if He is talking only of the jews.  The jews are Abrahams offspring.  They wouldn't be part of the "all nations"  but of the offspring.  Yes, Christ was the particular offspring this passage is talking about, but without the ongoing jewish belief system, that took thousands of people to keep it going for over 2000 years until that promise was fulfilled, "all nations" would have not been blessed.

Another question.... When did the "all the families of the nations" ever worship Christ as Lord?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I think (all the families of the nation's)  and (all nations)  is in reference to the tribes of Israel.
> The elect were of every tribe,  and it was a gathering together of His elect.  This is one of the reasons the Gentiles were brought in,  because the diaspora were scattered about in the gentile lands. Establishing churches in Gentile lands brought the Gospel to those of the lost tribes... We see this in the letter to the Roman's.  Paul many times in Roman's is speaking directly to Hebrews,  while other times to Gentiles.



Well you started out saying all nations is in reference to the tribes of Israel.

You did say "one of the reasons"  the Gentiles were brought in,  because the diaspora were scattered about in the gentile lands. Establishing churches in Gentile lands brought the Gospel to those of the lost tribes. 
I would say I read more into it than you meant.

Romans 11 tells of a remnant being chosen out of Israel and rest hardened. This was done to offer salvation to the rest of the nations and in return make Israel jealous.

I guess we could read into Romans 11 that one of the reasons the Gentiles were brought in was where the scattered Jews could hear the message and become jealous of the relationship the Gentiles had with God.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

This is how it reads to me. That's all I can explain. 

The whole earth will acknowledge the Lord and return to him.

 ( First they had to know Him to return to Him, right? The Gentiles did not know Him,  so this was about Israelites)  

    All the families of the nations will bow down before him. 

(His elect were the Christ believing Jew's of the first century,  they were of all the houses of Israel,  not just Judah,  he gathered them into the church from all corners of the world) 
28 For royal power belongs to the Lord.
    He rules all the nations.
29 Let the rich of the earth feast and worship.
    Bow before him, all who are mortal,
    all whose lives will end as dust.
30 Our children will also serve him.
    Future generations will hear about the wonders of the Lord.
31 His righteous acts will be told to those not yet born.
    They will hear about everything he has done.

( obviously this was not about the end of humanity because His legacy IE the Gospel was to continue on to future generations)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

Not the end of humanity but when has all nations worshiped God? 

"The whole earth will acknowledge the Lord and return to him." When?

Psalm 72:11 – “All kings will bow down to him and all nations will serve him.”

Psalm 86:9 – “All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, O Lord; they will bring glory to your name.”

Isaiah 25:7 – “On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all peoples, the sheet that covers all nations;”

Isaiah 40:5 – “And the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all mankind together will see it. For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.”

Isaiah 52:10 – “The LORD will lay bare his holy arm in the sight of all the nations, and all the ends of the earth will see the salvation of our God.”

Zephaniah 2:11 – “The LORD will be awesome to them when he destroys all the gods of the land. The nations on every shore will worship him, every one in its own land.”


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not the end of humanity but when has all nations worshiped God?
> 
> "The whole earth will acknowledge the Lord and return to him." When?
> 
> ...



When all Israel was saved.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Luke 21:
> 24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.



great non answer...

when was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> great non answer...
> 
> when was the times of the Gentiles fulfilled?



When the siege was over. This is not that hard of a verse.. It actually answers itself.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> When the siege was over. This is not that hard of a verse.. It actually answers itself.



pffftt..  

So, if you are correct, just what time line are we living in right now?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> pffftt..
> 
> So, if you are correct, just what time line are we living in right now?



Isaiah 9:7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this


Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Ephesians 3:20-21

20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.


Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

if you really believe we are living in a world that is ruled and reigned by Christ now, you are beyond hope.

A world where Satan has been defeated and Christ rules supreme would not have the issues that we have now.  My bible says that after Christ's return there will be a 1000 year reign where all men live in peace.  Can you please place that on any timeline between 70 ad and now?  Where all men live in peace and Christ was the world government, and all men sought Him?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> if you really believe we are living in a world that is ruled and reigned by Christ now, you are beyond hope.
> 
> A world where Satan has been defeated and Christ rules supreme would not have the issues that we have now.  My bible says that after Christ's return there will be a 1000 year reign where all men live in peace.  Can you please place that on any timeline between 70 ad and now?  Where all men live in peace and Christ was the world government, and all men sought Him?



Pappy, I'm not beyond hope,  I am wrapped up in the hope. 

I don't believe your Bible says there will be a thousand year reign that All men live in peace. 

Mine says,  there will always be wicked outside the gates,  but they are bidden to come in and take of the water of life freely given. 

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.

So as the scripture above says,  even without a deceiver man is wicked  and in need of the water of life.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

You don't believe the bible teaches that Satan will be bound and there will be 1000 year reign of Christ where all live in peace?

Splain Rev 20 to me then, pls
. "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit, and a great chain in his hand, and he laid hold on the old dragon, that old serpent, which is the devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, and cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years should be fulfilled, after that he must be loosed a little season. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgement was given to them, and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon his foreheads or in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again, until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that has part in the first resurrection. On such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.' Revelation 20:1-6.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

A literal thousand years does not fit in the time range verse 1 declares.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants—things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John

However 1000 is used throughout scripture as a symbolic number meaning completeness.  All the things that were to happen in that 1000 year symbolic time was fulfilled in 40 literal Years. Starting at Christ's ministry.


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## NE GA Pappy (Aug 12, 2017)

I'm done.

what it says, it doesn't say.  What is literal is symbolic.  1000 years doesn't mean a 1000 years.  All nations doesn't mean all nations, just the family of jews.

I do hope that some day you have the truth break thru and you realize that you have been deceived.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> When all Israel was saved.



There was this event when God was sour and destroyed Jerusalem. Let's say it happened in 70AD.

Then some time after that God was sweet and all Israel was saved.

Romans 11:26
and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

It's easy to see that God was sour and destroyed Jerusalem and even the nations against Jerusalem.

What are some verses that show God's sweetness in forgiving all nations when all Israel was saved?

After the destruction, after the full number of Gentiles came in, all nations worshiped God. 

Show me where after the destruction those who formerly disobeyed God received mercy through their disobedience so that they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

In other words God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 

So what scripture shows where this has happened? First the sour and then the sweet. First the judgment and then the forgiveness. First Israel and then all nations.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

Matthew 24:14 – “And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.”

The end? What end? 

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

If there never was an end then why does Matthew 24:14 say there was? Even if it's already come and gone there must have been and end.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

Mark 13:10 – “And the gospel must first be preached to all nations.”

Before what happens? Preaching is one thing and maybe it has but that's a bit different than "all nations" believing in God through Jesus and worshiping God.

Mark 13:27 – “And He will send His angels and gather His elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.”

Did the Remnant/Elect make it to the South Pacific?

Luke 3:6 – “And all mankind will see God’s salvation.”

What about mankind that lived in the South Pacific before the gospel reached that region? Has salvation reached the four corners yet? What if it did but now they forgot again? What if their ancestors reverted back to pagans and now their children no longer know the gospel? 

Acts 2:17a – “‘In the last days,’ God says, ‘I will pour out my Spirit on all people.'”

Last days? How can we have last days with no end?

Romans 14:11 – “It is written: ‘”As surely as I live,” says the Lord, “every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.”

We still have pagans and Hindus.

Revelation 15:4 – “Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”

Again, I don't see that happening after the destruction of Israel. I don't see that happening nor the full number of Gentiles coming in after that destruction. I don't see the Gentiles making all the Jews jealous after the destruction. 

Bit most of all, I don't see all nations worshiping God after all Israel was saved. Maybe they did and slowly fell away. 
Maybe there was a time after the destruction when all nations worshiped God. Maybe the Gentiles did make Israel jealous after the destruction but they too fell away.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;



Define creature/creation;

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Romans 8:19
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

Even if creation means "all nations" and the gospel went out to all nations, that doesn't mean that every knee bowed with hearing the Good News.

I don't see an event in time after the destruction where every nation worshiped God. 

I see prophesy where all nations will. Show me where they did. Maybe they did and they fell away. Show me where they did.

Psalm 86:9
All the nations you have made will come and worship before you, Lord; they will bring glory to your name.

Hearing the gospel doesn't make one worship.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Roman's 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

Maybe there will be a judgement where all nations will be punished for what they did against Israel and or God. Then after this judgment all nations will worship God.

Maybe Israel was destroyed by God's judgement and eventually it to will become jealous and also worship God as well. "All Israel will be saved."

Perhaps "all" and perhaps just the remnant. Perhaps just God's children of "all nations." If every knee bows and believes then who else could they be but God's children?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Roman's 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.



Define "all the earth." You are quick to define what the "whole world" is in relation to a flood and other things. Now you are saying "all" means "all."

Do you really believe all of Paul's followers reached every human in the whole world? How did they hear before Paul's army reached them? 

Even if it did reach everyone, they heard but they didn't believe. There never has been a time in history after Jesus died on a cross that every nation has worshiped God. They may have heard but they didn't believe.

There may have been some from all nations that had an effectual calling but that's a bit different from "all nations" worshiping God.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Every knee bowing and every tongue professing has to do with the judgment seat of Christ.  It was for those that percevierd to the end.  The Saints reward.  Every tongue or All was for believers only. This is where they would receive their crowns, not salvation. 

If every knee bowed and professed,  then All would be saved through faith,  this never was about non believers.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Define "all the earth." You are quick to define what the "whole world" is in relation to a flood and other things. Now you are saying "all" means "all."
> 
> Do you really believe all of Paul's followers reached every human in the whole world? How did they hear before Paul's army reached them?
> 
> ...




 I'm not saying all means all.... I'm pointing out that the Gospel was to go out to all the world before the end.. and Colossians 1 and Roman's 14 confirms it had already gone out to all the world.

So whatever all means in Matthew 24, it must mean the same in Colossians and Roman's... Which you and I know it didn't go out to the native Americans,  so they were not part of what was considered All the world.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

"There never has been a time in history after Jesus died on a cross that every nation has worshiped God. They may have heard but they didn't believe."

When God judged man,  He took out the wicked from among His people,  right? 

There's no difference in the destruction of Herod's Temple.  God brought down His wrath on the wicked inside Jerusalem,  His beloved saw the signs and fled to the mtns.

The Diaspora had been brought into the church.  All tribes (Nations)  of Israel worshiped Him.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2017)

Nations are ( a people)  or ( a tribe from a family)  example:

And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.Genesis 25:23


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 13, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Nations are ( a people)  or ( a tribe from a family)  example:
> 
> And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.Genesis 25:23



In this verse wouldn't the two nations be the Jews and 
Gentiles? So maybe all nations would have to come by way of Abraham. All nations would be descendants of Isaac & Ishmael.

Is this what you are saying? So therefore Native Americans are not part of "all nations."

Kinda like the whole world wasn't flooded but it did flood all nations using the above definition?  

Therefore when all nations worshiped God, it meant only local nations of Israel. 

"Whoever blesses Israel will be blessed, And whoever curses Israel will be cursed."

We know the Native Americans did neither.


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