# A revival .. of sorts?



## StriperAddict

*Romans 7:9* 
I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the *commandment* *came*, sin became alive and I died;


A powerful study verse, IMO  !


To have an understanding of this verse in context (esp w Romans 4:15-17  and Rom chs 5, 6, 7 and 8) ... it'll do wonders to our life IN Christ!


Any thoughts on the verse, or others in the same subject?


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## hummerpoo

I have come to view 7:12-14 as Paul's conclusion, and the key to Chapters 2-7.  The law is holy ... the law is spirit ... the spirit is opposed to the flesh, therefore the law condemns the flesh.

Edited to add Ch 2,3.


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## StriperAddict

Here's some thoughts from a message I got from my Men's Fraternity leader. Although it is on the subject of spiritual warfare, it brings out the baseless struggle with our "self" efforts (in keeping the law, etc) and was an inspiration to me this am on this subject  ...
===========


Dr. S. D. Gordon admonished: "When you are in the thick of the fight, when you are the object
of attack, plead less and claim more, on the ground of the blood of the Lord Jesus. I do not
mean ask God to give you victory, but claim His victory, to overshadow you."

Watchman Nee startles many by saying, "God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from
man’s way. Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s way is to remove
the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger
all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence,
something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way
of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it,
then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. ‘If only I
were stronger,’ we say, ‘I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper,’ and so we plead with
the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control.

"But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of delivering us from sin is not
by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. This is surely a
peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of
sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything
but by removing him from the scene of action."
The believer does not have to beg for help. He does have to thankfully appropriate that which is
already his in Christ, for, "the just shall live by faith" (Heb. 10:38). And dear old Andrew Murray
encourages us with "Even though it is slow, and with many a stumble, the faith that always thanks
Him not for experiences, but for the promises on which it can rely—goes on from strength to
strength, still increasing in the blessed assurance that God himself will perfect His work in us (Phil. 1:6)."

also...
*Hebrews 7:19*​<SUP class=versenum>19 </SUP>For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.


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## StriperAddict

Also... from "the Green Letters":


*7. ROMANS SEVEN RECKONING *

If believers knew more fully the deliverance of the first part of Romans Seven, they would experience less of the defeat of the latter part! This vitally important chapter has to do mainly with the principle of law. 

Positionally, in Christ, no believer is under law, "The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ"; "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth" (John 1:17; Romans 10:4). Conditionally, almost all believers are to some extent under the principle of law "as a rule of life." The all-too-general attitude is: I must love the Lord and others; I must maintain my testimony; I must witness and work for Him; I must resist self; I must stop this sinning. The feeling of constraint expressed in "I must" makes for Romans Seven defeat. 

"The law is holy... just, and good" (Romans 7:12). The purpose of God's law, both in command and principle, is to bring to light and cause us to face up to the fact of our sinfulness, weakness, and bondage. Its faithful ministry, negative though it be, is all-important. Law does not make us sinners; it is holy, and reveals to us that we are sinful. "By the law is the knowledge of sin" (Rom. 3:20). 

Anything we seek to do, or keep from doing, in our own strength brings us under legal bondage. Any promises or vows we make to the Lord, any code of ethics or rules of conduct that we set up for ourselves or have placed upon us, are on the basis of law and therefore result in failure and ever-deepening enslavement. The principle of law applies to the self-life, and can produce nothing but self-righteousness. Thus, the law convicts of our need of life in Christ. 

The years of struggle and failure we experience are not only to prepare us for liberation from the tyranny of the principle of sin, but from the bondage of the principle of law. We are brought not only to the release of Romans Six, but to the deliverance of Romans Seven. We exchange "the law of sin and death" for "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus" (Rom.8:2). 

We are given the key to the problem of law at the very door of Romans Seven: "Know ye not, brethren, ...how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?" (Rom.7:1). Exactly! All through the years of defeat, we have been slowly learning that the harder we tried to live the Christian life the deeper we came under the dominion of the law of sin. We tried to "be," we tried to "do," and there was nothing but failure year in and year out. 

"For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sin, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit [works] unto death" (Rom.7:5) As long as we depended on our own resources, all we produced was sin; we hungered for life, and brought forth death. But in the midst of our wretched attempts to be delivered from the "body of this death" (Romans 7:24), our faithful Father was teaching us what we had to know for our freedom in Christ: self is our greatest enemy, Christ is our only hope. "For to me to live is Christ" (Philippians 1:21). 

With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25). 

First, we learn that our having died in Christ on the Cross gives us the ground for freedom from the power of sin. But unless we learn the answer to the bondage of the principle of law, we will be right back in the defeat of Romans Seven, no matter how hard we reckon. Law reveals sin and produces bondage. The answer to the principle of sin prepares us for the answer to the principle of law. Reckoning is the key to both, and both have to do with the death of the Cross and our life in Christ. "But now we have been released from the law, having died to that by which we were bound; so that we serve in newness of the Spirit, and not in oldness of the letter" (Rom.7:6, NASB). As Paul tells us in verse 1, as long as we lived and walked in the self-life we were under the principle and dominion of law. 

But thanks be to God, we not only died to the principle of sin in Christ on the Cross, but there we also died to (out from the dominion of) the principle of law! Further, we were not only thereby freed from the "oldness of the letter," but were joined to Him in "newness of spirit.” “Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ; that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, that we might bear fruit for God" (Rom.7:4, NASB) 

Here again we must be reminded that the power for deliverance from the law does not reside in the fact that we have died unto it, but in our relationship to the risen Liberator. "Christ the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:24). Unless we clearly reckon upon our having died to the principle of law, we are constantly under the pall of failing to meet our spiritual obligations. On the other hand, when we rest in our risen Lord we are more aware of His sufficiency than we are of the claims of law upon us, and we are able to walk in the "liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free" (Galatians 5:1). "Come unto Me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 12:28). 

Each of us has "died to the Law" (Galatians 2:19, NASB), we were "discharged from the law" (Rom.7:6), and we are now "not under the law" (Rom.6:14). We are completely out of the realm of the principle and command of the law, and are forever on the ground of grace in our Lord Jesus Christ. "The Law came in, that the transgression might increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom.5:20-21, NASB). 

The Spirit of Truth is not only explicit and thorough in presenting the truth, but He is also exact and painstaking in preparing our hungry hearts for the appropriation of it. Most of His spiritual work He accomplishes in our lives through natural means, such as our careful, dependent study coupled with the vicissitudes of everyday life. The bondage of the principle of law finally brings us to its goal -- the death of the Cross. Now we are able to understand that "Through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I [self] who live, but Christ [my new life] lives in me [new creation]: and the life which I now live in the flesh [body] I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me" (Galatians 2:19-20, NASB). 

As we reckon upon having died to the principle of law, and abide in our risen Lord, the Holy Spirit progressively carries out the will of the Father in our life. His perfect will becomes a delight to us, not a duty. "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" (Rom.8:3-4, NASB), "not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life" (Hebrews 7:16). 

"Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage" (Galatians 5:1); "for the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Rom.8:2). "Consider yourselves to be dead to sin [and law], but alive to God in Christ Jesus" (Rom.6:11, NASB).


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## hummerpoo

When I looked at the above the first thing that came to my mind was a statement made by Sargeant  York in the movie when his commanding officer handed him a book entitled History of the United States; "sure are a lota writin'".

After reading through it, I would estimate 40 to 60 hours of hard work (given my thinking speed) would be required to critique  it properly.  I choose to forgo that chore.

Although there is nothing obviously incorrect in Mr. Nee's statement, there is also nothing particularly instructive.  That being an assessment of that which is presented above, and not any more complete work.

"People" say that Paul is hard to understand (even Peter expressed that opinion) and few disagree.    However, his work comes with an endorsement which demands that we put forth the effort required to understand what he is teaching.  The second post above is equally hard to understand but without the endorsement.  There seems to be a strong dispensational approach at work in the interpretation, and the use of scripture is at least loosely connected, and sometimes simply wrong (notice examples of reference to “the law”, as in the law of God, when the scripture is refering to the law of sin.  Witness the last quote (Rm. 6:11) where the unwarranted addition to the text turns Paul's meaning completely on it's head.




StriperAddict said:


> Here's some thoughts from a message I got from my Men's Fraternity leader. Although it is on the subject of spiritual warfare, it brings out the baseless struggle with our "self" efforts (in keeping the law, etc) and was an inspiration to me this am on this subject  ...
> ===========
> 
> 
> Spritual warfare is the right framework for consideration of the portion of Romans under consideration.  That war is one between flesh and Spirit.  If we make God's Law the enemy we eliminate the primary means by which we are able to recognize the enemy, and it is us; that is our flesh, our sinful nature, the old man.  To eliminate God's Law from spiritual warefare is akin to eliminating preaching from evangelism.
> 
> (Rm. 7:13) Therefore did that which is good become {a cause} {of} death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
> (Rm. 10:14) How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
> 
> Spritual warfare will be won by spiritual means; something of which men know nothing.  Until men give up on developing their own grand designs and rely totally upon the designs presented to them by God, the war is lost.
> 
> Prov. 16:25 There is a way {which seems} right to a man, But its end is the way of death.
> 
> (Rm 6:20:23).  For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.  Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.  But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.  For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
> 
> If the purpose of the law is to expose sin, leading to sanctification, why would we fear the law, it is a gift from God.
> 
> "Self effort" will not succeed against self, the enemy.  Paul does not suggest that flesh can defeat flesh, he says that the law condemns the flesh when the Spirit takes over.


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## StriperAddict

hummerpoo said:


> After reading through it, I would estimate 40 to 60 hours of hard work (given my thinking speed) would be required to critique it properly. I choose to forgo that chore.


 
Likewise  ! But I'll try my best at taking some of your points!


Have we not "died to the law by the body of Christ"?, as the law is never the means to _IMPART righteousness_... only _conviction_ & consciousness of the _adamic sin nature_ (pre-salvation).

However, once the law does its job as the schoolmaster, pointing to the Christ of the cross, and the person is convicted, he/she turns (act of the will) to Christ and becomes, as the scripture states... a New Creation... God giving the gift of righteousness, repentance, faith, eternal life, etc. Hobbs, I'm sure you "get" that, but I have a question for you:

If we died to sin (Rom 6:2), how is it possible for it (in a believer only) to _still be part of our "nature",_ as you suggest... 


			
				hummerpoo said:
			
		

> If we make God's Law the enemy we eliminate the primary means by which we are able to recognize the enemy, and it is us; that is our flesh, _our sinful nature, the old man_.


??

Rom 6:6 says: that our <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>old <SUP class=footnote value='[c]'></SUP>self was <SUP class=crossreference value='(M)'></SUP>crucified with Him...

I know many believers don't really believe that, or wrongfully suggest that we have this "death of the old self" in *position only*, NOT in _*actual experience*_. If so, how can we "fight" against something that hasn't really died?

Paul makes it clear that the "law of sin and death" still exists in the _"members of his (our) body", the flesh_ (Rom7:17,18)but in NO way do we see the scripture saying that the same law of sin is in our soul and spirt man... our new nature in Christ! It is in the new birth that we have a _NEW identity_ and new spirit man!

Yes, the law of sin (or some rightly call the _power of sin_) is in our flesh, but our flesh, or body, is NOT a nature... and not our IDENTITY. 

Consider...
The Old man, or old adamic NATURE was put to DEATH by the cross. Therefore, our new man, or new redeemed creation can "fight" spiritual battles because of this... if it were not so, and our identity (in spirit, NOT in flesh) was still the adamic nature, we could never take authority over sin in the flesh... because sin or the "old adamic man/nature" would be _alive in our spirit_, and it is _not_...
*Romans 7:6*
But now we have been released from *the* *Law*, having *died* *to* that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of *the* Spirit and not in oldness of *the* letter.
*Galatians 2:19*
For through *the* *Law* I *died* *to* *the* *Law*, so that I might live *to* God.

Finally, concerning the law, the cross and spiritual warefare, nothing says it better than the Word...

<SUP>13 </SUP>When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, <SUP>14 </SUP>having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. <SUP>15 </SUP>When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him. (Col 2:13,15)


I've made these points in the past often, as the subject of grace over law is one close to my heart. And although I'm one to conceede that I'm not eloquent in putting my thoughts down, give this a look (& critique ) as time allows.

Peace,
~Walter


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## formula1

*Re:*

Walter:

I like your thoughts.  As I was reading I thought of this scripture and it appears to fit at least a part of your discussion.  

Romans 8:13 
For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Perhaps many don't fully recognize the Life that is in our spirits is the same one who raised Christ from the dead, or rather we don't want to believe it. Often, we tend to hold to what is comfortable to us and right in front of us.  

I am of the mind that when we grasp that we are really new, well, the world will once again turn upside down, and the law of Love will be fully kept!


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## StriperAddict

I agree Eddie.  Life _in_ and _from_ our spirit is freedom indeed!

Which is why I have to surrender the body daily (more like moment by moment!) in order for the resurrected life of Christ to come thru. It is our character that Abba Father is looking to change & be more like the One who bought us., 
Rom 12:1 Therefore <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>I urge you, brethren, by the mercies of God, to <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>present your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, <SUP class=footnote value='[a]'></SUP>acceptable to God, _which is_ your <SUP class=footnote value='[b]'></SUP>spiritual service of worship. 

As the flesh, or the power of sin in our bodies tug away at us, it is not a warfare between 2 states of being (old man & new man), but it is clearly that agent from satan himself... left in that part of us (body) which will (thankfully!) be buried in the ground one day, as our souls and spirit man go to be with Father!  


---------------------


What I would like to take up next in this thread is what Paul said here in Rom 7:17:
"So now, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AG)'></SUP>no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."

The word "it" is VERY significant here!  I don't think the word refers to an act of sin, because the scriptures teach that, for a believer, 
... if anyone sins, we have an *Advocate* with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 1 John 2:1-3 
therefore Paul could _not _be saying it wasn't him comitting an act of sin (it is, and is with us as well).

While I have my convictions, I'll yield the floor to others on this verse  , and look forward to the gleanings. 

~Walter


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## Artfuldodger

In response to Romans 7:17, I would say "it" is the act of sin. We as Christians still sin even with the Advocate.
I believe I have something in common with Paul. That is the struggle between Grace and the Law. Also the struggle as to why is a Christian like me still sinning? 
Another thing I have in common with Paul is free will. That's why me and him are always wondering and having internal conflicts of the two natures. Just as Jesus had free will sometimes, Jesus & Paul are inspired by God and sometime it is themselves pondering. This is one of those uninspired times. Paul is really having one of his many  internal conflicts. I have them all the time, growing pains I guess. 
His new nature "I" doesn't approve of the sin that "it", his sin nature or flesh is performing. He isn't free of sin, yet. Maybe through sanctification he will be less sinful but at this point he feels really really bad when he sins. He's on the right path. Christians still have a inherent propensity to sin. This is a conflict neither me nor Paul likes. 
During mine and Paul's journey through santification we struggle, seek, concentrate on the Law one day, and concentrate on victory in Jesus the next day. 

Galatians 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

In this verse Paul is saying that spiritually the old nature is gone and Christ is the guiding force. The second part of the verse shows that the body part of us still struggles and needs faith in the Son of God.


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## hummerpoo

StriperAddict said:


> Likewise  ! But I'll try my best at taking some of your points!
> 
> 
> Have we not "died to the law by the body of Christ"?, as the law is never the means to _IMPART righteousness_... only _conviction_ & consciousness of the _adamic sin nature_ (pre-salvation).
> 
> No, the law does not impart righteousness.  When you use the words "never" and "means" I must say that I back off a little.  The law is a means, not to righteousness, but to free us from the flesh.
> 
> No, not pre-salvation.  You must have ears to hear/eyes to see, and that can not be pre-salvation (1 Cor. 1:18)
> 
> I said that I view 7:12-14 as the conclusion, along with that view is 7:15-8:17(or thereabouts) as the epilogue.  It looks back; sort of, "for clarification" or "now you can expect this". In that mode is (8:3,4) "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh [before you were saved], God {did:} sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and {as an offering} for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
> 4.  so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled [that is fully developed (for an example see Mat. 5:21-48)] in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
> 
> In that Matthew passage we have one of several examples of what the law of God is really all about, that is what it always was and always will be.
> 
> However, once the law does its job as the schoolmaster, pointing to the Christ of the cross, and the person is convicted, he/she turns (act of the will) to Christ and becomes, as the scripture states... a New Creation...
> 
> The schoolmaster to speaking "foolishness" if he is speaking to the unsaved, 1 Cor. again.  The letter is written to the Church at Rome.  Sometimes addressing Jews, sometimes Gentiles, even occasional recognition of the unsaved as shown by the word "if", but directed  to believers.
> 
> I see an actual question comming up, I'm chicken ... More later, God willing.
> .


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## StriperAddict

hummerpoo said:


> No, not pre-salvation.  You must have ears to hear/eyes to see, and that can not be pre-salvation (1 Cor. 1:18)



That's confusing in light of the law called a "tutor" to LEAD someone (pre-faith) *to *Christ...  but I'll let that go for now also  !

Here's a better synopsis of the points about the law... (emphasis added)

Galatians 2:16-20
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since _by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified_. <sup class="versenum">
</sup>
<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! <sup class="versenum">
</sup>
<sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. <sup class="versenum">
</sup>
<sup class="versenum">19 </sup>For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
<sup class="versenum">20 </sup>I have been crucified with Christ; (death to the sin NATURE)
and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the _life_ which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

Later!
~Walt


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## Artfuldodger

quote: With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25). end quote

I can't say I agree with his interpretations of "sin." It's as if God made sin from the beginning as a way to show we needed Jesus. I know there is a fine line there somewhere as the coming of the Lord was prophesied. But to make Christians continue to sin as a way to finally admit defeat and turn totally to Christ I can't agree with. My sins are on my shoulders and not God's. I don't believe I'll ever give up and quit trying to sin for that reason. 
My new Christian spirit is still in a human body of flesh. I can't seperate the two. It is a conflict even with my spiritual circumcision. My heart wants God but my flesh still wants worldly things. My flesh wants to sin and my spirit condemns those desires. I strive not to sin yet Romans 7: 21-25 tells me I will. 
I find it sad but interesting how my new nature(spirit) has to share an old nature body(flesh).
In closing I don't believe the Holy Spirit wants me to give up "trying not to sin" and announce my defeat. I've already announced defeat. It's still confusing as to why I sin but I know it's my sin. I know God doesn't want me to sin. He wants my obedience.
This man's beliefs on "Our Old Carnal Sinful Nature" sums up my view as well:

http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/nov12.html


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## StriperAddict

My notes (most) are in purple...



Artfuldodger said:


> quote: With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat:
> "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25)
> 
> If you boast in your weakness as Paul did, you'll understand and appreciate to the nth degree just what Christ did for you. I guess I wouldn't call that a defeat...
> But if your boast is in just how well you are keeping the rules (law), you'll walk in defeat and condemnation constantly. Let me add... been there, done that!
> 
> I can't say I agree with his interpretations of "sin." It's as if God made sin from the beginning as a way to show we needed Jesus. I know there is a fine line there somewhere as the coming of the Lord was prophesied. But to make Christians continue to sin
> Where are you getting that?
> as a way to finally admit defeat and turn totally to Christ I can't agree with.
> 
> So you disagree that "the law was given so the transgression might increase" *Romans 5:20*?
> 
> Then consider:
> *Romans 5:15*
> and especially...
> *Romans 5:17*
> For if by the *transgression* of the one, death reigned through the one, _much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ_.
> 
> 
> My sins are on my shoulders and not God's.
> 
> As a believer in the Risen Lord, _both_ your ACTS of sin and the Old Sin Nature were crucified.. erradicated.. put to DEATH (along with the LAW which was nailed to the cross)! Why in heaven do you want to carry a burden that God never intended His children to carry???
> 
> I don't believe I'll ever give up and quit trying to sin for that reason.
> 
> "Cease striving and KNOW that HE is God" and _not you_. As your faith in Christ develops (behavioral sanctification) His work will put to rest those tendencies to sin. I understand this to mean we are to surrender or body daily to be used as His "temple", the place where His Spirit dwells, in order to lay aside the "things" of the flesh... I may be wrong but I think that is what you are trying to say... ??
> 
> My new Christian spirit is still in a human body of flesh. I can't seperate the two.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> It is a conflict even with my spiritual circumcision. My heart wants God but my flesh still wants worldly things. My flesh wants to sin and my spirit condemns those desires.
> 
> Ok! Here's where Paul's teaching gets interesting!
> Just consider what Paul discovered in Rom 7 was that the "IT" he spoke of in Rom 7:17:
> "So now, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AG)'></SUP>no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me."
> 
> The "IT" here is any sinful "fleshly" THOUGHT, and Paul is saying he did not generate "IT"... but the SIN (or power of sin) dwelling in his flesh did!
> 
> Stop to think on THAT for a moment and we may understand that we can CLAIM Christ's victory over those evil THOUGHTS...
> because they _do NOT come from our IDENTITY_ (our New Nature, or new spirit man) _in Christ _
> but from the POWER of SIN in our un-redeemed body!
> 
> I'll say it again... your FLESH is _NOT your identity_,
> your New Creation spirit man in Christ IS!
> 
> Rom 7 is not "the defeated Christian's chapter...
> but is the victorious Christian's chapter. Consider once more...
> Rom 7:17:
> "So now, <SUP class=crossreference value='(AG)'></SUP>no longer am I the one doing it, (the evil thought(s) generated by the power of sin in my flesh), but sin which dwells in me."
> 
> 
> From this understanding we can apprehend His power to overcome what we cannot in our own strength.
> 
> 
> 
> I strive not to sin yet Romans 7: 21-25 tells me I will.
> I find it sad but interesting how my new nature(spirit) has to share an old nature body(flesh).
> 
> Ok, remove the "old nature" from the above and that makes sense to me
> 
> In closing I don't believe the Holy Spirit wants me to give up "trying not to sin" and announce my defeat.
> I've already announced defeat. It's still confusing as to why I sin but I know it's my sin.
> 
> I would hope some of the above might help you to see yourself as God's child and understand how the "battle" takes place. You ARE on the winning side because Christ did ALL the winning for you. Stop letting those thoughts of defeat and condemnation (yep, from your flesh, not your new man) keep you from understanding your righteous relationship to the Father.
> 
> I know God doesn't want me to sin. He wants my obedience.
> 
> Agreed, up to the point where the law is said to be "useful in determining one's position or life in Christ". The law cannot. What we are is determined by our Birthright, not the "works of the law".
> 
> This man's beliefs on "Our Old Carnal Sinful Nature" sums up my view as well:
> 
> http://www.abideinchrist.com/selah/nov12.html


 

Art, I hope some of this helps! 
Go grab the book "GraceWalk" by Steve McVey for a much better understanding of this, as I'm one to conclude my writings don't do this subject the full understanding it deserves. 

And watch out for them legalists... as in Paul's day (Galatians 2:4-6), they'll jump all over grace and demonize it to their own ruin! 


Grace and Peace be yours in Christ

~Walter


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> That's confusing in light of the law called a "tutor" to LEAD someone (pre-faith) *to *Christ...  but I'll let that go for now also  !


Where there is faith, there is regeneration and vice versa.


----------



## hummerpoo

striperaddict said:


> that's confusing in light of the law called a "tutor" to lead someone (pre-faith) *to *christ...  But i'll let that go for now also  !



huh???

Clarification ... I don't believe I said that, If I did, please point it out so I can fix it.


----------



## hummerpoo

StriperAddict said:


> Here's a better synopsis of the points about the law... (emphasis added)
> 
> Galatians 2:16-20
> <sup class="versenum">16 </sup>nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since _by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified_. <sup class="versenum">
> </sup>
> <sup class="versenum">17 </sup>But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! <sup class="versenum">
> </sup>
> <sup class="versenum">18 </sup>For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. <sup class="versenum">
> </sup>
> <sup class="versenum">19 </sup>For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.
> <sup class="versenum">20 </sup>I have been crucified with Christ; (death to the sin NATURE)
> and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the _life_ which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.
> 
> Later!
> ~Walt



When did we change the discussion to justification, I missed that.


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> My notes (most) are in purple...
> Art, I hope some of this helps!
> Go grab the book "GraceWalk" by Steve McVey for a much better understanding of this, as I'm one to conclude my writings don't do this subject the full understanding it deserves.
> 
> And watch out for them legalists... as in Paul's day (Galatians 2:4-6), they'll jump all over grace and demonize it to their own ruin!
> 
> Grace and Peace be yours in Christ
> 
> ~Walter



Believe me everything helps. I appreciate your responses. Too bad you didn't get anymore to answer on what "IT" is.
I'm sorta confused on your views of Lordship Salvation since you mentioned "watch out for the legalists." What is the difference from the "not sinning" aspect vs "not following the law" asect?

I would like more input on the purpose of the Law. Was it the sole purpose to show we needed a Savior? Did God set us up to fail to save the day? God never expected the Jews to follow the Law? He never got angry when people didn't follow the law?
I got his interpretation of sin from this:
With Paul, we came to recognize an internal law: when we would do good, evil was present with us. That is, we saw another law in our members, warring against the law of our mind, and bringing us into captivity to the law of sin which is in our members (Romans 7:21, 23). All this has been specifically designed by the Spirit to bring us finally to the blessed condition of defeat where we cry from the heart, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" (Romans 7:24). His answer to victory is found only through our realization of defeat: "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord"! (Romans 7:25).
At one point it appears you "striper addict" are telling us to forget the law and accept  the grace of God for Salvation. You can do this by admitting defeat against sin and realizing Jesus is the only way. Then in another topic you are saying Christians don't sin anymore or at least that is what Lordship Salvation is all about. Forgive me if I'm reading this wrong as I get confused easily and do enjoy your input to the topics.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Galatians 3:10 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator.

It is most definitely in the Bible and I bet someone other than Paul has said this too. If just Paul said it, I might could overlook it.
This only adds to my confusion, if the Old Testament and Law was a setup, I truly wish I didn't believe in Freewill. It would be so much easier to believe in Predestination. 
The Law was to show transgressions. Without the Law there is no sin. Then how in the world in modern times are we expected not to sin if sin and law is the same thing? One day we aren't to follow the law, Jesus saved us from it. Today we are not to sin because we have a new nature and if we continue to sin, we had a False Conversion. 
I truly hope I'm the only confused Christian and that is is from Election and not Freewill. I wish I could "surrender all" as the old song suggests. Maybe I'm elected and as Paul i'm just trying to figure it all out. Paul did ask himself a lot of questions. At times he seemed as confused as me and he figured it out.


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## StriperAddict

hummer & Art, this is really great stuff you're bringing up (of law, grace, justification etc) and I just didn't have time to check the thread out today at all. (More cyber house hunting and a non-stop day at the mill)
It's late and I'm crashing and really disappointed I can't take any points tonight and do them any justice.  But I'll print ya'lls posts & read/ and get back as time lets me. 
Press on & press IN! 

~Walter


----------



## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> hummer & Art, this is really great stuff you're bringing up (of law, grace, justification etc) and I just didn't have time to check the thread out today at all. (More cyber house hunting and a non-stop day at the mill)
> It's late and I'm crashing and really disappointed I can't take any points tonight and do them any justice.  But I'll print ya'lls posts & read/ and get back as time lets me.
> Press on & press IN!
> 
> ~Walter



Good luck on your cyber house hunting. We had better luck using the internet that our realtor. You can tell them over & over what you don't want and they continue to show you those houses anyway. When you find your house you will know it's yours.
Take you time and we'll be waiting for your input.


----------



## StriperAddict

hummerpoo said:


> huh???
> 
> Clarification ... I don't believe I said that, If I did, please point it out so I can fix it.


Unless I'm the one who misunderstood... it seemed as if you disagree that the law is useful to someone who doesn't believe (pre-salvation)...  
In other words, God gave the law so that we might be convicted of our sinful condition before receiving Christ, so that we would understand we have no redemption in it(the law doing it's job to tutor, or lead & convict a non-believer).

If "by the works of the law no flesh can be  Justified", how is it then a "tool" _after _salvation in Spiritual warfare, since the New Man or the one justified, is no longer under the yoke/chains of the law?

*Romans 7:5*  For while we were in the flesh(condition before salvation), the sinful passions, which were _aroused_ by the *Law*, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for *death*.

We were walking death traps apart from the cross! No amount of "do it yourself" religion will ever do, nor ever has done, what God did by eradicating the law AND our Old Sinful Nature in our dead spirit man (before Christ) by giving us the New Man after our crucifixion with Christ, and our resurrection with Christ (of II Cor 5:17).





hummerpoo said:


> When did we change the discussion to justification, I missed that.


Justification, or... "Just -as-if-I'd-never sinned" is God's basis of  our right relationship with Him... not the law. The law cannot give any power for life because by grace becomes our right standing with the Lord.  This, on the basis of faith in what He did to  make us right. That's why I thought it fit into the discussion.  

In either case, notice that the law is eradicated on the principle of faith...
*Romans 7:4*

Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through  the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who  was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.

Colossians 2:13-15   13-When you were dead <sup class="footnote" value="[a]"></sup>in your transgressions and the un-circumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, 
14-having _*canceled out the certificate of debt*_ consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has *taken* it *out* of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Also in vs 15, I get a taste of the *warfare* we have won in Christ, and the law no longer has anything to do with it:
15- When He had <sup class="footnote" value="[b]"></sup>disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through <sup class="footnote" value="[c]"></sup>Him.


Our victory over sin and death is won by Christ Himself... never by our futile efforts of keeping the law...

1 Corinthians 15:55-57 
<sup class="versenum">55 </sup>O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” <sup class="versenum">56 </sup>The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; <sup class="versenum">
</sup>
<sup class="versenum">57 </sup>but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The grace - law dynamic is best explained here...
*Galatians 2:19-21*


 19 For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God. 
20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. 
21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly.”


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Good luck on your cyber house hunting. We had better luck using the internet that our realtor. You can tell them over & over what you don't want and they continue to show you those houses anyway. When you find your house you will know it's yours.
> Take you time and we'll be waiting for your input.


Thanks for your kind wishes and refreshing humor...  !
We are using both the "non-complaining" internet (LOL) _and _a realtor, who has the patience of Job! How she has stayed with us thru 7 blown contracts in less than 2 months is beyond me!   But this has been a long crazy road, and if I didn't believe there was a bigger purpose in it, I'd be crazy myself along about now!


Ok, back on subject!

Art, you mentioned...


> At one point it appears you "striper addict" are telling us to forget  the law and accept  the grace of God for Salvation. You can do this by  admitting defeat against sin and realizing Jesus is the only way. Then  in another topic you are saying Christians don't sin anymore or at least  that is what Lordship Salvation is all about.



does the promise in Gal 2:19 add help to your thoughts? ...
<sup class="versenum">"</sup>For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God."

I never said a Christian will never sin again.  But clearly the law is dead to us as a means of growth and sanctification. 
We "live to God" by faith, agreed?
If so, when we make a wrong choice and allow an evil thought the time to fester and end in an act of sin, we then have the choice of agreeing with God and confessing that sin and drawing close to the grace and mercy that has (already) saved us.
Our bodies, our flesh, will always try to provoke us to sin... but we should never make the mistake and call our flesh our NATURE, as we were redeemed unto a New Man, as our old sinful spirit man was dead and crucified at the cross. From the work of the cross, we can apprehend by faith, the victory over that sin ...
and...
We dare not put shame all over the process, unless if we look carefully and realize we are not in the faith to begin with (another subject altogether).

But we have the promise that we can come BOLDLY to the Throne of grace... because we are His Beloved, and we can obtain mercy and help in our time of need...  the need being we must 1st know we missed the mark, but we can recognize His Love for us has NOT diminished one iota because of our failure, weakness and sin.  

Because if we wallow in our sin and shame, we are, in effect, saying we must "add" to the completed work already done for us.  This is the primary mistake of legalists, of whom Christ and the cross are of waning significance...
*Galatians 4:9*  But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly *elements*, where unto ye desire again to be in bondage?

If so, the grace of God could well be in vain, as we are picking up the old dead man (our old self that was crucified) and trying to breathe life into him... an act of utmost futility!

A Christian is not redeemed BY the law, but FROM it. Therefore, we can conclude we are His children: holy, blameless, justified, brother of Christ... an eternal New Creation...
not because of what we "do" or "don't do",
but because of our inherited Birthright, the free gift of His mercy and grace, by which we grow in the knowledge of Him.



> Was it the sole purpose to show we needed a Savior? Did God set us up to fail to save the day?


Where is the problem in our failure to keep God's law, when as a result of it and really seeing our sinful condition for what it is...  we _turn to Him_, 
and He gives us His Spirit in the New Man, and we have everything we need for life and Godliness... in and from our Lord Jesus Christ?

Art, in my book that's called a winning proposition, no? 

*John 10:9-10*

<sup class="versenum">9 </sup>I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>The  thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am  come that they might have life, and that they might have it more  abundantly.


----------



## hummerpoo

StriperAddict said:


> Unless I'm the one who misunderstood... it seemed as if you disagree that the law is useful to someone who doesn't believe (pre-salvation)...
> 
> That is correct, I do disagree.
> 
> In other words, God gave the law so that we might be convicted of our sinful condition before receiving Christ, so that we would understand we have no redemption in it(the law doing it's job to tutor, or lead & convict a non-believer).
> 
> I don't believe that is correct.
> 
> To whom did God give the law? Israel, His people (Paul explains that Israel is not by blood but by faith).
> Did He give the law to them when saved or unsaved?  Saved, they were His chosen people.
> 
> Did Paul write his letter to the unsaved in Rome.  No, it was to the saved.
> 
> 
> We are talking about the moral law, right?  The ceremonial law is completely different.
> 
> If "by the works of the law no flesh can be  Justified", how is it then a "tool" _after _salvation in Spiritual warfare, since the New Man or the one justified, is no longer under the yoke/chains of the law?
> 
> That's right; the law does not, never did, and never will justify a man before God.  As Paul explained in the subject passage, the law serves as a “tool” to suppress the flesh. The law exposes the sinful flesh, strips it naked, makes it vulnerable. “through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.”God did not leave His people out here in the world with no tools with which to work. This in no way discounts our most valuable help, The Holy Spirit.  Paul example is “I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."”  He's not talking about prior to his encounter on the road to Damascus.
> 
> It could be thought of as a yoke in that it helps us work alongside our Savior.*Thinking of Mat. 11:30.*


*
I was in too big of a hurry, I added the green stuff.



StriperAddict said:



			But clearly the law is dead to us as a means of growth and sanctification.
		
Click to expand...


It seems to me that you need to make that argument to Paul as his point in the passage we are discussing is the opposite.*


----------



## Artfuldodger

Those last three post are way over my head. It could just be that I'm too tired to comprehend. Maybe I'll have to read through it a couple more times later.
Maybe we'll get a few more members to explain it as they see it. Not a jab at ya'll, but just would like a few more explanations.


----------



## gemcgrew

Art, here are some quick notes from me:

The Law

Christ is the end of the law's purpose (Romans 10:4). He is the object and the purpose of the law. The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
The law demands complete satisfaction and will settle for nothing less than the death of every transgressor. In Christ we have all that the law demands. If we are in Christ, we are dead to the law (Romans 7:1-4).

Justification

To be justified is to be pardoned of all sin and made perfectly righteous before God through Christ. We were justified in eternity (Romans 8:30). Remember, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Ephesians 1:3-7)
"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9) 

Sanctification 

We do not sanctify ourselves. It is God who sanctifies. Sanctification is something God does for us and in us, never something we do for ourselves. "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:" (Jude 1)


----------



## hummerpoo

Artfuldodger said:


> Those last three post are way over my head. It could just be that I'm too tired to comprehend. Maybe I'll have to read through it a couple more times later.
> Maybe we'll get a few more members to explain it as they see it. Not a jab at ya'll, but just would like a few more explanations.



Hey Art,  You love God.
Since you love God you want to please Him.
The Ten Commandments help you know how to please Him.

That's why Paul said “the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good”

Only God saves, the law doesn't save.

I know that's way more simplified than you need, but it isn't oversimplified.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> Art, here are some quick notes from me:
> 
> The Law
> 
> Christ is the end of the law's purpose (Romans 10:4). He is the object and the purpose of the law. The law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24-25). "But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster."
> The law demands complete satisfaction and will settle for nothing less than the death of every transgressor. In Christ we have all that the law demands. If we are in Christ, we are dead to the law (Romans 7:1-4).
> 
> Justification
> 
> To be justified is to be pardoned of all sin and made perfectly righteous before God through Christ. We were justified in eternity (Romans 8:30). Remember, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8).
> "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;" (Ephesians 1:3-7)
> "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9)
> 
> Sanctification
> 
> We do not sanctify ourselves. It is God who sanctifies. Sanctification is something God does for us and in us, never something we do for ourselves. "Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:" (Jude 1)



Do you make a distinction between moral law and ceremonial law?  I see the ceremonial law as the type of Christ, which is no longer of any use after his incarnation.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Do you make a distinction between moral law and ceremonial law?  I see the ceremonial law as the type of Christ, which is no longer of any use after his incarnation.


I see the types of the ceremonial law fulfilled in Christ. He has abolished the obligation of believers to the moral law.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I see the types of the ceremonial law fulfilled in Christ. He has abolished the obligation of believers to the moral law.



No obligation for salvation, but obligation for love of the Father?


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## hummerpoo

Not a hill to die on, but the only obligation to keep the moral law that I see at any time was and is for love of God.


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## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> No obligation for salvation, but obligation for love of the Father?


Do we want to be as Ishmael, under the bondage of the moral law? It was the moral law that had power to condemn. Christ nullified this curse by his death. We refuse to become again entangled with the yoke of bondage. Are we not dead to the law and alive to God, by Christ? "For the love of Christ constraineth us"


----------



## Artfuldodger

Salvation is of God, Justification is of God, Sanctification is of God. 
I do appreciate your help but I can't really and honestly say it's helping other than opening my heart to look and seek the truth.
The Law
If it's over and we are no longer under it, why did God say "if you love me you will keep my commandments?"
Justification
If the "chosen many" were justified from the beginning of eternity and Jesus was slain in the beginning, what was the point of him coming to Earth as a man? 
Sanctification                                                                                                               We have to “work out” our salvation with fear and trembling. He is telling us there are things that have to be worked out  and I believe one of those things is our sanctification in the Lord.
The actual act of sanctification is of the Holy Spirit. The actual gift of Salvation is of God. The actual Justification is of God.
So I would assume you would say God is no respecter of men and works don't matter therefore everything has to be of God and BY God. If this is what you are saying, then you make a very good point.
It still doesn't help me as I've heard this concept and have often thought of switching over but but God want let me. I'm confused as to why he want let me believe in this concept. It sure would explain everything and set my mind at ease. Then I would believe in Eternal Salvation knowing everything
 is in God's hands.

 1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you abstain from sexual immorality; 
(it would be a relief to know that God keeps me from performing sexual immorality. The bad thing is when I do perform sexual immorality I immediately think I'm not of the chosen for if I were, I would be protected by God from doing these terrible acts.

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. 
It doesn't help me to know that my justification & sanctification are of God when I'm jealous(although that's never been my weakness)
or envious(now we're talking about me), is all from God.
But you know what is really confusing? The warnings.


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> Do we want to be as Ishmael, under the bondage of the moral law? It was the moral law that had power to condemn. Christ nullified this curse by his death. We refuse to become again entangled with the yoke of bondage. Are we not dead to the law and alive to God, by Christ? "For the love of Christ constraineth us"



Did the moral law ever spirtually condemn?  I have not made that answer come out positive, but I would really appreciate input from you on the question.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> If the "chosen many" were justified from the beginning of eternity and Jesus was slain in the beginning, what was the point of him coming to Earth as a man?


What was agreed to in eternity, was brought about in time. This is the purpose of creation. This has always been plan A. There never was a plan B.

"And Judah said unto Israel his father, Send the lad with me, and we will arise and go; that we may live, and not die, both we, and thou, and also our little ones. I will be surety for him; of my hand shalt thou require him: if I bring him not unto thee, and set him before thee, then let me bear the blame for ever:" (Genesis 43:8,9)

"By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament." (Hebrews 7:22)


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Did the moral law ever spirtually condemn?  I have not made that answer come out positive, but I would really appreciate input from you on the question.


When Adam sinned, did he not die spiritually? Did we not all die in Adam?
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


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## hummerpoo

If we had been made telepathic, then conversation would be so much easier.  Maybe He just wants us to work at it.  In saying moral law I had in mind the law of Moses.  I probably need to adjust that some, but my intent does not include God's eternal decrees.
Off to work now.  I'll have a question this evening, God willing.


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## Artfuldodger

The Law of Moses condemns. The New Covenant of Christs contains both Law and Grace but if that Law is transgressed, Grace is available.


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## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> If we had been made telepathic, then conversation would be so much easier.  Maybe He just wants us to work at it.  In saying moral law I had in mind the law of Moses.  I probably need to adjust that some, but my intent does not include God's eternal decrees.
> Off to work now.  I'll have a question this evening, God willing.


No need to adjust, I was aware of your meaning. I do not find a separation between the ten commandments and the other laws given. I believe scripture is clear that believers are free from the law (moral, dietary, civil, economic) and that Christ is the end of the law. I see the Galatians separating the law and Paul likened it to witchcraft (Galatians 3:1). Paul affirmed the believer's complete freedom from the law and quoted a passage from Deuteronomy which refers to the ten commandments.

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10)

"And the Levites shall speak, and say unto all the men of Israel with a loud voice, Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the LORD, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen. Cursed be he that setteth light by his father or his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen.
Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour's landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with his father's wife; because he uncovereth his father's skirt. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that lieth with his mother in law. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that smiteth his neighbour secretly. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen. Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them. And all the people shall say, Amen." (Deuteronomy 27:14-26)


----------



## Artfuldodger

Reading about the New Covenant law makes us look at James' teachings as well as Paul's teachings. I just read a good article where the author explained it very well;
 James and the "Law"
Ethics in the Christian Life
Douglas Ward
from the article;
1)The Law, Paul, and James

One cannot approach the topic of the "law" in James without first dispatching some of the common misconceptions about the book that much of the Protestant church has believed through most of its history. These misconceptions spring abundantly from a perceived tension between James and Paul that date to the birth of Protestant thought with Martin Luther and John Calvin
2)Admittedly a surface reading of the text demonstrates the potential for such a tension to exist. Paul asserts in Galatians 3:6 (quoting Genesis 15:6) that "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." This seems to contrast with James 2:18, "was not our father Abraham justified by works?" In addition, while Paul confidently asserts that "a man is justified not by the works of the law, but through faith in/the faith of Jesus Christ" (Gal 2:16), James -3- seemingly counters with "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (James 2:24).
3)This perspective was basically adopted by the Reformers, especially Martin Luther and John Calvin. In fact, this misconception of the Old Testament understanding of Torah partly contributed to the difficulty that the Reformers had in distinguishing between their own struggle with 16th century legalistic "works righteousness" and the biblical perspective of torah as faithful response to God’s grace.
4)Paul’s perspective seen in terms of grace and James’ views seen in terms of legal requirement
5)Paul and James agree that the "law" must still be kept in some manner (Gal 5:3, James 2:10). Paul and James further agree on the need to translate Christian identity into consistent moral behavior (Eph 2:10, James 1:16), behavior that is called "law" in James. The oneness of God is prominent in both authors (James 2:19, Gal 3:28)
6)The importance of this cannot be overestimated in interpreting the scriptures. Paul is arguing about who is allowed into the community, not against doing good deeds. If it is demonstrated that this is the main point of Paul, then any conception that James runs counter to Paul falls flat as well. So instead of a text that somehow argues against Paul’s letters, James answers a different set of questions than did Paul. While Paul answers "who is a part of the community of faith?" James answers, "how then is that faith to be lived?" Like Paul, James turns to Abraham and the Old Testament torah to answer this basic question. 
7)Conclusion
As in the letters of Paul, the "law" is important in James. It somehow must be kept and is still the standard for human behavior. Yet it is not the law of Martin Luther that attempted to earn one’s way toward salvation. Rather, the law in James is the standard of behavior that best exemplifies faith and makes it complete, a recovery of the Old Testament concept of torah redefined in light of the new work of God in Jesus Christ


http://www.cresourcei.org/jameslaw.html


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## StriperAddict

quote=hummerpoo
I was in too big of a hurry, I added the green stuff.

No problemo.  I'm often in the same place!  
Mine'll be in RED...
 
That's right; the law does not, never did, and never will justify a man before God. 
Agreed

As Paul explained in the subject passage, the law serves as a “tool” to suppress the flesh. 
To new believers in Christ I may consent, but only up to a certain point.  
Only by faith in His blood and completed work can we experience victories over the flesh and the devil.  Christ's words about abiding come into place here... "He who abides in Me bears MUCH fruit", and when we allow Him to work thru us by His Spirit and finished work, the works of the flesh will grow dimmer and dimmer... 

The law exposes the sinful flesh, strips it naked, makes it vulnerable. “through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.”
Agree wholeheartedly! And Christ was often "upping" the antee on "commandments" and getting at the heart of the matter...
check Matt 5:28 and, sans a chuckle or two... tell me how you pull THAT one together, if NOT by faith in the pure, holy Lamb of God!
My take...  that NO amount of "striving" would ever be a means to keep the laws/commandments of God, or us from the _condemnation OF IT_.
Also consider:Galatians 5:18 
But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.


God did not leave His people out here in the world with no tools with which to work. This in no way discounts our most valuable help, The Holy Spirit. Paul example is “I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."” He's not talking about prior to his encounter on the road to Damascus. 

consider:Ephesians 2:15 
having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace

It could be thought of as a yoke in that it helps us work alongside our Savior.

Of the law (and entirety of Scripture), I agree:
*Hebrews 4:12* 
For the word of God _is_ living and *power*ful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

However, no "works" of ours is the reason we are "Pleasing to the Lord",
He calls us His Own by reason of His work. 
(Sorry if I labour on that point ad nauseum, but it's critical to our understanding of our identity in Christ...  by Birthright, not "deeds")





hummerpoo said:


> It seems to me that you need to make that argument to Paul as his point in the passage we are discussing is the opposite.[/quote]
> If so, then why would he pen:For sin _shall not have dominion over you_, for _you are not under law _but under grace.
> Romans 6:13-15
> ? His whole discussion on the law of God (Mosoes) came to a complete halt, as he said:
> 
> Philippians 3:6-9
> 6 concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
> 7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
> 8 Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ
> 9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith
> 
> 
> gemcgrew said:
> 
> 
> 
> ... I do not find a separation between the ten commandments and the other laws given. I believe scripture is clear that believers are free from the law (moral, dietary, civil, economic) and that Christ is the end of the law.
> Agree also.
> 
> & Good points via scripture...
> I see the Galatians separating the law and Paul likened it to witchcraft (Galatians 3:1). Paul affirmed the believer's complete freedom from the law and quoted a passage from Deuteronomy which refers to the ten commandments.
> 
> "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10)
> ...  (Deuteronomy 27:14-26)
Click to expand...


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> ...
> 7)Conclusion
> As in the letters of Paul, the "law" is important in James. It somehow must be kept and is still the standard for human behavior.


 
Art, if I crossed you up, made some things confusing, my apologies.

My greatest desire is that every believer would KNOW his/her right standing in the Lord comes by faith in the entire completed work on the cross, and it is out of that faith which comes our abundant life.
Anything else becomes a works religion., having the "look" of righteousness but never claiming the true... 
Christ Himself.

*Galatians 5:4* 
You have become estranged from Christ, you who _attempt to_ be justified by *law*; you have fallen from grace.
Galatians 5:3-5 (in Context)


*Galatians 5:22-23*
22 But the _fruit of the Spirit_ is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 
23<SUP> </SUP>gentleness, self-control._ Against such there is no law_.


Peace!

~Walter


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## Artfuldodger

StriperAddict said:


> Art, if I crossed you up, made some things confusing, my apologies.
> 
> My greatest desire is that every believer would KNOW his/her right standing in the Lord comes by faith in the entire completed work on the cross, and it is out of that faith which comes our abundant life.
> Anything else becomes a works religion., having the "look" of righteousness but never claiming the true...
> Christ Himself.
> 
> *Galatians 5:4*
> You have become estranged from Christ, you who _attempt to_ be justified by *law*; you have fallen from grace.
> Galatians 5:3-5 (in Context)
> *Galatians 5:22-23*
> 
> 
> 22 But the _fruit of the Spirit_ is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
> 23<SUP> </SUP>gentleness, self-control._ Against such there is no law_.
> 
> 
> 
> Peace!
> 
> ~Walter



I do get confused as to how the New Covenant commandments are to be utilized, required, or viewed but it's not you causing the confusion.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> I do get confused as to how the New Covenant commandments are to be utilized, required, or viewed but it's not you causing the confusion.


 
Got it.

It is a very GOOD thing if the "commands" or words of the scriptures show up some weakness in us.  It is by the open acknowledgement of such weakness that God starts to work.

And that is my main point.

Go anywhere you'd like to study throughout the pages of scripture but keep in mind it is Christ alone who is your power, your righteousnes,

NOT your own striving.

Then, come boldly, those weakness and all, and bring them to the loving care of Abba - Father.  He does NOT judge you for any of those things, but rather,
as they are honestly brought to Him,

He is then "free" by His Spirit within,
 to change,
correct,
cleanse 
and bring you joy.

Can any of this really go on by a clay vessel,
apart from the love and mercy of our Lord??


Peace, brother Art.  I admire your humble testimony of the struggle with the flesh... which we all have.

But don't let anyone nor the law nor the devil himself
rob you of the joy of your Saviour by condeming you for such struggles.

Remember Christ endured EVERY temptation know to men ... by the same Spirit power we have ... by faith.


----------



## gemcgrew

StriperAddict said:


> It is a very GOOD thing if the "commands" or words of the scriptures show up some weakness in us.  It is by the open acknowledgement of such weakness that God starts to work.


I think you have that somewhat backward. 
If the "words of the scripture show up some weakness in us", is this not God's work?


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I do get confused as to how the New Covenant commandments are to be utilized, required, or viewed but it's not you causing the confusion.


Art, there were over 600 precepts of the law. They were summarized and given to the children of Israel in ten commandments (Exodus 20:1-17). Isaiah, by divine inspiration, reduced the ten to six (Isaiah 33:15-16). Micah reduced the commandments to three (Micah 6:8). Christ declared that all the commandments could be reduced to two (Matthew 22:37-40). Over 600 precepts, when reduced, required but two things from us "that we love God and that we love one another perfectly". These two things condemn us all.

How do we fulfill the law of God completely and perfectly? Only one thing is required! "Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent." (John 6:29)


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## StriperAddict

gemcgrew said:


> I think you have that somewhat backward.
> If the "words of the scripture show up some weakness in us", is this not God's work?


 
Sorry... I meant BOTH


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## hummerpoo

Stripper, McGrew, and Art,

I confess disappointment in my inability to grasp some of what has been communicated  in this thread and must assume that much of that is do to my failure to express my thoughts clearly.  I am in the process of pulling everything in this thread into a document on my desktop, and intend to go through the whole thing, verse by verse, statement by statement, and argument by argument.  I trust that the Spirit, who has been so faithful in the past, will continue His patience.  Anything less would be disrespectful to our Savior and to you.

Art, at some point I may need to ask you about the source, reference, or connection for something you have said.

McGrew, although I understand your statement about the reduction of the law to it's essence, it will take some work on my part to grasp how it does not dismiss God's revelation of Himself , but I am confident that it does not.

Stripper, I'm just not sure how it is that nearly everything I said about sanctification, elicited a response about salvation; especially after you said “it is a very GOOD thing if the "commands" or words of the scriptures show up some weakness in us. It is by the open acknowledgment of such weakness that God starts to work”, which is essentially a paraphrase of what I thought I had been saying.

There is, of course, much more that I need to digest.

I must confess that I am starting on this project with a bias.  I seem to see a phobia of anything other than dismissal of  “law”.  I will first rid myself of that bias.

Thank you brothers, I may be confused now, but we must always rejoice in every opportunity for growth that He places in our path.


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## Artfuldodger

What would you call the concept where one totally believes Salvation is of God and Grace but somehow also believes one must believe, repent, try not to sin/break the commandments, produce fruit, forgive, love, pray, etc., etc.
Is it an enigma?
Is everything I listed considered works? Why did God go to the trouble to put commandments in the New Covenant and reduce them to two if he didn't feel they were important? He even went so far as to write them on our hearts. He even gave us the Holy Spirit after doing so.
     God says "if you love me, keep my commandments," John 14:15, 21. "By this we know that we love the children (brethren) of God, when we love God and keep His commandments," I John 5:2. "For this is the love of God that we keep His commandments, and His commandments are not grievous," I John 5:3. "And this is love, that we walk  after His commandments," II John 6. "If we love one another, God dwells in us, and His love is perfected in us," I  John 4:12. "God is love, and he that dwells in love dwells in God, and God in him. Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He is, so are we in this world, " I John 4:16-17. "He that keeps His commandments dwells in Him and He in him."  "And hereby we know that He abides in us by the Spirit which He has given us," I John 3:24.

Love plays a key roll. Hummerpoo, good luck on your venture.
I'm definitely on a religious rollercoaster. People are helping. The Holy spirit is helping. My indoctrination isn't helping. Good luck learning without "bias". It's not that easy to do.


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## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> McGrew, although I understand your statement about the reduction of the law to it's essence, it will take some work on my part to grasp how it does not dismiss God's revelation of Himself , but I am confident that it does not.


I do not view Law as something created, but rather God’s expression of His eternal will and character. Grace and Law are merged in Christ and display God’s eternal standards.

Not sure if that helps you at all but I am not dismissing God's revelation of Himself. I do not see much distance between us on this. I am confident that we agree on far more than we differ.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What would you call the concept where one totally believes Salvation is of God and Grace but somehow also believes one must believe, repent, try not to sin/break the commandments, produce fruit, forgive, love, pray, etc., etc.


I would call it accurate. There is not salvation where there is not belief, repentance and fruit.


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## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I do not view Law as something created, but rather God’s expression of His eternal will and character. Grace and Law are merged in Christ and display God’s eternal standards.
> 
> Not sure if that helps you at all but I am not dismissing God's revelation of Himself. I do not see much distance between us on this. I am confident that we agree on far more than we differ.



And the essence of a flower is the reproductive organs.


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## Artfuldodger

I'm beginning to see two different concepts. One is our salvation is of God and totally by God. Notheing else matters. Proof isn't even needed. Jesus died so that we may live. Easy-beleivism, you are saved. The fruit will come later, the changes will come.It's more in God's hand. You will be guided by the Holy Spirit. Don't get so upset and distressed when you mess up. Repent and move on in your journey through sanctification. Christians mess up. God keeps no record of wrongs. You are forgiven: run, laugh, play, celebrate. It's all grace and no legalism. 

The other concept is still salvation by the grace of God but appears one needs more proof. This could range from the basics of how one lives to talking in tongues. This is more of if the person isn't showing fruit then he had a false conversion. If this person makes a conversion, falls to his knees, cries, repent, starts going to Church and a year later grows cold and starts backsliding, their answer is "he was nver saved." He was like a Laodicean, Lodicians to this group were never Christians even though Christ ask them to repent. In this group if sanctification is slow coming, the person was never saved. This is a"The  proof is in the pudding" concept. No sinners prayer in this group. This group believes in cultural Christians.


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## StriperAddict

Brothers, I'm saddened and sorry if I've been confusing the issues here which all of you have discussed and pondered very well, and I would hope we take what we learn from each other and draw closer to our Lord.  

Gem & Art, thank you for your thoughts and encouragement, esp. in the scriptures freshly opened on several levels. 
hummerpoo, I'm sure we are on the same page in grace and understanding the law of God more than I've been able to communicate.  It was said of Paul, "his letters were weighty and strong, but his personal appearance was contemptable", well, perhaps the oppisite is true for me, my posts perhaps "contemptable"!  

All kidding aside, I have been streched in a good way from this, and if I feel I can add to the mix again, Lord willin I'll prayerfully enter in.  

I came across a note that I think is appropriate, and covers the subjet of "warfare" (against sin) and has grace all thru it, IMO.  
So for a time, I'll end with this... which I hope will be a blessing to all, as it has been to me... 

The thick of the fight
Dr. S. D. Gordon admonished: "When you are in the thick of the fight, when you are the object
of attack, plead less and claim more, on the ground of the blood of the Lord Jesus. I do not
mean ask God to give you victory, but claim His victory, to overshadow you."

Watchman Nee startles many by saying, "God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from
man’s way. Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s way is to remove
the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger
all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence,
something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way
of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it,
then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. ‘If only I
were stronger,’ we say, ‘I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper,’ and so we plead with
the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control.

"But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of delivering us from sin is not
by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. This is surely a
peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of
sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything
but by removing him from the scene of action."

The believer does not have to beg for help. He does have to thankfully appropriate that which is
already his in Christ, for, "the just shall live by faith" (Heb. 10:38). And dear old Andrew Murray
encourages us with "Even though it is slow, and with many a stumble, the faith that always thanks
Him not for experiences, but for the promises on which it can rely—goes on from strength to
strength, still increasing in the blessed assurance that God himself will perfect His work in us
(Phil. 1:6)."


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## Artfuldodger

It could be we are closer to believeing the same things but aren't expressing them to each other as we actually believe. 
It is hard to do. It's hard to seperate Grace and works, not in the sense of what Salvation is (grace) but how we percieve it (works) to play out in our concept. 
In studying James & Paul's differences, I found more likeness.
In the "proof of salvation" thread it appears one proof is a "knowing you have a need for God in your life." I think that's a pretty good start.


----------



## StriperAddict

Amen Art.

I'd like to get anyones take on "the thick of the fight" in post 53.  Me, I want to comit it to memory, that and verses that tie into its meaning...
Hey, I need all the help I can get, 'ol ragamuffin that I am  !


----------



## hummerpoo

hummerpoo said:


> I am in the process of pulling everything in this thread into a document on my desktop, and intend to go through the whole thing, verse by verse, statement by statement, and argument by argument.



On a side trip from studying dictionaries for "justification", "sanctification", and "salvation" I bumped into a quote which I was eventually able to source to a book that was laying on the table behind me.  (Reading 40 pages beyond where I had last stopped would have been an easier path.)

"Many have found it hard to see what claim the law can have on the Christian.  We are free from the law, they say; our salvation does not depend on law-keeping; we are justified through the blood and righteousness of Jesus Christ...[redacted to avoid the need for a long explanation]...

The Puritans had to face these 'antinomian' ideas, and sometimes make heavy weather of answering them.  If one allows it to be assumed that justification is the be-all and end-all of the gift of salvation, one will always make heavy weather of answering such arguments.  The truth is that these ideas must be answered in terms, not of justification, but of adoption: a reality which the Puritans never highlighted quite enough.  Once the distinction is drawn between these two elements in the gift of salvation, the correct reply becomes plain.

What is the reply?  It is this: that, while it is certainly true that justification frees one for ever from the need to keep the law, or try to, as the means of earning life, it is equally true that adoption lays on one the abiding obligation to keep the law, as the means of pleasing one's new-found Father." J.I Packer

This helps me tie some things together, and I thought it might do the same for someone else.


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> The Puritans had to face these 'antinomian' ideas, and sometimes make heavy weather of answering them.  If one allows it to be assumed that justification is the be-all and end-all of the gift of salvation, one will always make heavy weather of answering such arguments.


I face the same charge of "antinomian" regularly. I have been told that "you can't say that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone" or "the believer is free from the law" without being antinomian. In regards to my view on eternal justification, I am told "you can't tell people that or they will live like they want to". 



hummerpoo said:


> What is the reply?  It is this: that, while it is certainly true that justification frees one for ever from the need to keep the law, or try to, as the means of earning life, it is equally true that adoption lays on one the abiding obligation to keep the law, as the means of pleasing one's new-found Father." J.I Packer


What Packer does here is to cause us not to look to Christ alone for everything, but to him and ourselves. That we somehow find assurance in our imaginary obedience of the law.

I say that our worthiness before God is Christ alone, our assurance is Christ alone and our acceptance is Christ alone!


----------



## hummerpoo

gemcgrew said:


> I face the same charge of "antinomian" regularly. I have been told that "you can't say that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone" or "the believer is free from the law" without being antinomian. In regards to my view on eternal justification, I am told "you can't tell people that or they will live like they want to".
> 
> 
> What Packer does here is to cause us not to look to Christ alone for everything, but to him and ourselves. That we somehow find assurance in our imaginary obedience of the law.
> 
> I say that our worthiness before God is Christ alone, our assurance is Christ alone and our acceptance is Christ alone!



I would disagree with a charge of antinomianism in all three cases you sight, if I understand what you mean when you make the statements. (I hate this one-dimensional communication.)

Those who would say, in reference to eternal security, "You can't tell people that or they will live like they want to" do not recognize that, for the child of God, what he would want yields to what God wants.  When you say Packer causes “us not to look to Christ alone” do you not fail to recognize that the child of God knows the source of all that is good.  That would only follow if he believed he had contributed to his salvation.  I do not read into Packers statement the satisfaction of our obligation to God by the exercise of our will, only the reality of the obligation.

We must be very careful not to shore up the narrow view of salvation.  That is indeed a slippery slope, the end of which is “I just want to do enough to get to heaven”.


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## Artfuldodger

If we leave ourselves totally out of the equation, then what does that mean? Even for an "elect" believer, don't you at least have a responsibility? Maybe not for your salvation but how can you dispute believing, repenting, serving, praying, obedience, and spreading the word. Would you say that if God doesn't work these "works" as fruits, then their is no proof?


----------



## gemcgrew

hummerpoo said:


> Those who would say, in reference to eternal security, "You can't tell people that or they will live like they want to" do not recognize that, for the child of God, what he would want yields to what God wants.


Yes, but even more than that. I think they are telling on themselves, in that if they believed they were secure, or free from the law, they would pursue the desires of the flesh.



hummerpoo said:


> When you say Packer causes “us not to look to Christ alone” do you not fail to recognize that the child of God knows the source of all that is good.  That would only follow if he believed he had contributed to his salvation.  I do not read into Packers statement the satisfaction of our obligation to God by the exercise of our will, only the reality of the obligation.


I see Packer saying that believers are obligated to keep the law, so to please our new-found Father. He places them under the law. I say that there is no sense whatsoever in which believers are under the law. Christ is the end of the law. I have no acceptance before God but Christ.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> If we leave ourselves totally out of the equation, then what does that mean? Even for an "elect" believer, don't you at least have a responsibility? Maybe not for your salvation but how can you dispute believing, repenting, serving, praying, obedience, and spreading the word. Would you say that if God doesn't work these "works" as fruits, then their is no proof?


 
You are not out of the equation if you are grafted into "Sonship", or Birthright in redemption.
The only difference is that Christ is now IN you, to work His work THRU you...
".. it is NOT I, BUT Christ who lives in me.. " Paul said.

The greatest joy we ought have is to see we live by the very LIFE of another... Christ IN us, the hope of glory.  "What would Jesus do" is not the question (IMO), but rather, what will Jesus do THRU me as I yield myself (Rom 12:1, etc) to Him daily?? (better... moment by moment).  It's sad few know of the abiding life of Christ, the freedom of His Life in us and thru us; some would rather be content with how well they keep the rules.


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