# Paul's struggle of two natures.



## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

This came up in another thread and I think it is worthy of study.  I have a different view of Paul's struggle than most,  and for reason. 

Apparently the common view is Paul's struggle mentioned in Romans is that of an internal struggle of any Christian against indwelling sin. 

My understanding of Paul's struggle and the scripture associated with this,  is Paul is discussing the public buffeting of the  Christian against external persecution. 
 Paul is addressing the futility of man under law,  Torah Romans 7:6. Paul is not discussing the futility of the Christian experience,  in fact Paul exults victory over indwelling sin.. Roman's 7:25-8:1f.

So Paul's reference is about the Jew coming out of the old covenant... And the struggle to stay in the New with the persecution they were receiving. 

What say you?


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## Artfuldodger (May 31, 2017)

Do we have other scriptures to compare man's struggle with the dual nature?


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## welderguy (May 31, 2017)

The Corinthian church is an example of the old nature's​ influence on children of God. Paul addresses them as saints "in Christ"(1 Cor.1:2). But he also says they are carnal(1 Cor.3:3), and admonishes them accordingly.

We know that "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature..."(2 Cor.5:17)
But even when we are "in Christ", it's possible to walk carnally.
I know this firsthand in my own experience. I've got the scars to prove it.


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## gordon 2 (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> This came up in another thread and I think it is worthy of study.  I have a different view of Paul's struggle than most,  and for reason.
> 
> Apparently the common view is Paul's struggle mentioned in Romans is that of an internal struggle of any Christian against indwelling sin.
> 
> ...



 I don't know how you do it, but you read into scripture an uncommon rewrite of Christian history and spirituality. And I think you admit this. Which makes you honest which is good-- and yet I think misguided.

Simply we die in this world, that is the bodies of all of creation die. Now since our bodies die are they not still captured by the effects of sin? And if they are... than sin is at work in the makeup of saints. 

Although we are deemed saved and righteous for being in Christ... our bodies are still in the curse. And the pain can have differing influences on how we walk in Christ.

Now it is easy for me to say this today because I have a possible a tooth abscess and it is sure testing my righteousness. Let me describe it a little. The pain starts at my left canine raises up to my cheek bone runs behind my ear and then falls back into my left gums from where it raises to my mid pallet. It is a shooting pain...which shoots pain like a slow first world war machine gun. It is like a quarter of my skull is on fire.

Now I have a appointment at the dentist tomorrow. I will be paying for a cure. I am, for now, popping pain med which is great for all the people selling them.

Now this is the plan: I'm going to kill the tooth that caused the issue before it kills the whole body. I understand that in a world of death to loose a member is better that to loose the whole body... which is possibly what I would loose living just a few decades and definitely a few centuries ago--baring a miracle.


The torn in my mouth... keeps me grounded about what is and what is not--yet.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I have a different view of Paul's struggle......What say you?



I say for one willing to build an entire theology around his personal eisegesis of scripture regarding eschatology, why do our opinions matter.  Honestly.  If you don't value the words of the Holy Spirit. Apostles, and early church fathers why ask for ours?


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I say for one willing to build an entire theology around his personal eisegesis of scripture regarding eschatology, why do our opinions matter.  Honestly.  If you don't value the words of the Holy Spirit. Apostles, and early church fathers why ask for ours?




I enjoy conversing with brothers and taking the stripes from others.


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> I don't know how you do it, but you read into scripture an uncommon rewrite of Christian history and spirituality. And I think you admit this. Which makes you honest which is good-- and yet I think misguided.
> 
> Simply we die in this world, that is the bodies of all of creation die. Now since our bodies die are they not still captured by the effects of sin? And if they are... than sin is at work in the makeup of saints.
> 
> ...



I assure you I am not reading into scripture,  but receiving what scripture is providing. 
I pointed out Roman's 7:6 earlier. Let's look at it again as it explains a death that cannot be physical. 


Romans 7:6New King James Version (NKJV)

6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

See.. Paul had by faith accepted Christ,  this gave him Liberty from the law... He died to the law. Which was flesh/ carnal/ physical
 He was made alive in Spirit by faith in Christ.. IE.  He was in the New covenant. 

Now... Please explain how this is eisegesis and not exegesis.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2017)

Eph.4:22-24
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


This is something we have been given liberty to strive for every day. It's what we've been called to do.


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Eph.4:22-24
> 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
> 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
> 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
> ...




 So.. When we put on the new man which is created in righteousness... Are we also putting off the old.... Or are we putting new wine into an old bottle. So to speak?


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins


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## gordon 2 (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins



Without going back to ref. I always assumed this was about gentiles and jews....???


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## gordon 2 (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Mark 2:21 No one sews a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; or else the new piece pulls away from the old, and the tear is made worse. 22 And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; or else the new wine bursts the wineskins, the wine is spilled, and the wineskins are ruined. But new wine must be put into new wineskins



Again jews-gentiles?


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## hummerpoo (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I assure you I am not reading into scripture,  but receiving what scripture is providing.
> I pointed out Roman's 7:6 earlier. Let's look at it again as it explains a death that cannot be physical.
> 
> 
> ...



That has been tried many times.

Try reading The Whole of CH. 7 ten times each day, asking God for understanding.  Don't quit for 1000 days.

Alternatively, find a group specializing in reverse brainwashing.


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## gordon 2 (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I assure you I am not reading into scripture,  but receiving what scripture is providing.
> I pointed out Roman's 7:6 earlier. Let's look at it again as it explains a death that cannot be physical.
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure Paul meant it this way. Dying to the law is not "flesh/carnal/physical". It is that which points to flesh as being contaminated which in turn orients the spirit towards sticks and stones in lieu of carrots. Perhaps, Maybe? Dying to this simply means the orientation is opposite--carrots... but it does not mean that sin is rid as a motivator in our world now? Even the greatest of saints... are troubled by inner motives, yours and mine and their own.
Hum...????

The law is there for lost people in a lost world. It does not follow to me that salvation, for now, takes away the effects of sin in the world we are in now. And since the effects of sin are present in the world we are in, these effects continue to deceive and tempt many... including the greatest saints who complain the most of their personal sins.... which to many seem so negligible ????


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> That has been tried many times.
> 
> Try reading The Whole of CH. 7 ten times each day, asking God for understanding.  Don't quit for 1000 days.
> 
> Alternatively, find a group specializing in reverse brainwashing.



Lol.. I wish I could find that group for all the futurist that blatantly deny the clear message in Luke 21!


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## hummerpoo (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Lol.. I wish I could find that group for all the futurist that blatantly deny the clear message in Luke 21!



I sincerely hope that more effort will be put into Rm. 7 than the futurists.


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## welderguy (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> So.. When we put on the new man which is created in righteousness... Are we also putting off the old.... Or are we putting new wine into an old bottle. So to speak?



The wine and bottle text is speaking of the Spirit(new wine) dwelling in a new creature(2 Cor.5:17).

But, this new creature still has the flesh to contend with daily.

Gal.5:17
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> I sincerely hope that more effort will be put into Rm. 7 than the futurists.



Sure,  tell you what,  I'll read Roman's 7 ten times each day asking God for understanding  (always do anyhow)  for 1000 days if you do the same with Luke 21.. Then we can both talk about futurist.


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## Artfuldodger (May 31, 2017)

Hobbs, disregarding what Paul thought, do people who are born of the Spirit still sin? I know these sins aren't counted against us and the Holy Spirit still helps us, but do we still sin?


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, disregarding what Paul thought, do people who are born of the Spirit still sin? I know these sins aren't counted against us and the Holy Spirit still helps us, but do we still sin?



Yes,  we still sin... But it's not a struggle,  we aren't natural sinners,  we are children of God. 

We have one commandment.. Love one another.  Sometimes we do not do this,  but we don't struggle within ourselves as children of God.. We don't have hate in us as children of God, and God deals with us as we fail to represent Him.
 In short.. There is no longer imputed sin,  or original sin that brought death in the day Adam took of the fruit.


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## Artfuldodger (May 31, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes,  we still sin... But it's not a struggle,  we aren't natural sinners,  we are children of God.
> 
> We have one commandment.. Love one another.  Sometimes we do not do this,  but we don't struggle within ourselves as children of God.. We don't have hate in us as children of God, and God deals with us as we fail to represent Him.
> In short.. There is no longer imputed sin,  or original sin that brought death in the day Adam took of the fruit.



You gather all this from just Paul or other scripture as well?


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> You gather all this from just Paul or other scripture as well?



Mostly Paul but others too.  I think a lot of folks miss the fact that Adam died in the day that he took of the fruit.. Therefore they mistake the nature of sin death  for physical death... I often wonder,  if God made Adam in a state of everlasting life unlike we are... Why was there a tree of life in the garden?


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

Here's a copy from the NKJV.. Notice there are three headlines and all three are about the law. 

Freed from the Law
7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death. 6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.

Sin’s Advantage in the Law
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”[a] 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

Law Cannot Save from Sin
13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of


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## hobbs27 (May 31, 2017)

Roman's 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time[1st Century.. Hobbs] are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to [About to... Mello ..Hobbs ] be revealed to us.


YLT Young's Literal Translation
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory about to be revealed in us;

Something was about to be revealed in them and it would end the suffering.


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## Israel (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes,  we still sin... But it's not a struggle,  we aren't natural sinners,  we are children of God.
> 
> We have one commandment.. Love one another.  Sometimes we do not do this,  but we don't struggle within ourselves as children of God.. We don't have hate in us as children of God, and God deals with us as we fail to represent Him.
> In short.. There is no longer imputed sin,  or original sin that brought death in the day Adam took of the fruit.



I find agreement in that.
Paul was not describing a struggle, but a matter of fact. 
God is not relatable through points of law, but only through relationship as Father to son.
This is and was (as I presently am able to receive) as much the constitution of Jesus ministry as being the final sacrifice for sin. 

The "thing" that would seek to offer "of itself" some sacrifice in approach, and for approach to God...is always, and only referred to Jesus Christ's submission and obedience as the only sufficiency. And here find one is either "in, or out" of relationship.

"When thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin..." 
This is part and parcel of what the believer receives as inheritance in faith and of faith. Our "own" souls testify against us in the light of the spirit should we try to make them the basis of satisfying our Father. God is pleased to save the soul, for mercy is that in which he delights, but, or rather, _and_, this salvation is revealed from out of the spirit only of that man in whom Christ Jesus, the life giving spirit, reigns as Lord. 

What we have in spirit as sons through the faith of Jesus Christ, is being made known to the soul...to its salvation. The spirit knows, the soul is in learning.

But there is also a "finding out" the soul encounters in its informing...of the matter of "law". Both Jew and gentile soul, man and woman soul are in this, all alike. The soul does not want to "give up ground" (figuratively and literally) to spirit. And so it finds itself at times, very much occupied with wanting to make trades...and back to law. "if I do this...then "I" keep my place of reign"
But the Spirit reigns in the believer, and will not, does not surrender its place of ascension over all.
I believe this is a good part of what Paul found, probably in some measure to his surprise, how ingrained the principle of law is in the soul of all, and why he was vexed that even gentiles would find themselves in a place of enticement to "take on" law as a suitable means of relationship...even to those things of which they had seemingly never been previously called to.

"If while seeking to be justified in Christ I find myself a sinner, does that make Christ a minister of sin? God forbid!" It is here, as in the seeking we are made aware of the strength of this "principle of law"...of trying to present "of ourselves" a goodness to satisfy God for approach, we may be finding ourselves abandoning the first hope in temptation to succomb to the weak and beggarly elements of "taste not, touch not". We must and will, by grace's wonderful impelling to see Jesus Christ in fullness, overcome these things...but I dare say, they are indeed those things of which every soul discovers...a thing wanting to dissuade from grace to a something else in misapprehension that by these the soul may yet live "of itself".
Am I speaking to air? God knows.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Mostly Paul but others too.  I think a lot of folks miss the fact that Adam died in the day that he took of the fruit.. Therefore they mistake the nature of sin death  for physical death... I often wonder,  if God made Adam in a state of everlasting life unlike we are... Why was there a tree of life in the garden?



Come-on! This does not square with scripture. It is an idea you have... but it is not scriptural.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Sure,  tell you what,  I'll read Roman's 7 ten times each day asking God for understanding  (always do anyhow)  for 1000 days if you do the same with Luke 21.. Then we can both talk about futurist.



Everyone is lost but you and your pedagogues.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Come-on! This does not square with scripture. It is an idea you have... but it is not scriptural.



Gen. 2:17 but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."


Genesis 3:22-23 
22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Everyone is lost but you and your pedagogues.



I've never said such.  I think everyone disagrees on scripture.... Unless they belong to a very controlling denomination.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I've never said such.  I think everyone disagrees on scripture.... Unless they belong to a very controlling denomination.



As you clearly demonstrate.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2017)

Roman's 7:1 7 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?

Paul is speaking specifically to Jews here.. Those that knew the law..


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2017)

Romans 7: 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God

Again... Specifically to the Jew... This has a familiar ring to it. 

Galatians 4:  22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.


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## welderguy (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Romans 7: 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God
> 
> Again... Specifically to the Jew... This has a familiar ring to it.
> 
> Galatians 4:  22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise, 24 which things are symbolic. For these are the[d] two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar— 25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children— 26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.



When you say "written specifically to the Jew", I get the feeling that you don't include spiritual Jews. I think if this is your view, you should reconsider the deeper meaning of it.
You and I are spiritual Jews.(Rom.2:29)


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2017)

welderguy said:


> When you say "written specifically to the Jew", I get the feeling that you don't include spiritual Jews. I think if this is your view, you should reconsider the deeper meaning of it.
> You and I are spiritual Jews.(Rom.2:29)



This is true,  but were you or I ever of the law... Torah to be more specific?  We must be honest to the scriptures.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2017)

Commentary
Matthew Henry Commentary
7:1-6 So long as a man continues under the law as a covenant, and seeks justification by his own obedience, he continues the slave of sin in some form. Nothing but the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, can make any sinner free from the law of sin and death. Believers are delivered from that power of the law, which condemns for the sins committed by them. And they are delivered from that power of the law which stirs up and provokes the sin that dwells in them.

I can see this but somehow I feel as if I still sin even with the burden lifted by the Holy Spirit. It still feels like a struggle. It still feels like my spiritual nature duals with my fleshy nature.
Even though my sins were washed. For some reason I still have a natural desire to sin. I have to fight really hard to overcome. Maybe it's just easier for some than others.


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## welderguy (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> This is true,  but were you or I ever of the law... Torah to be more specific?  We must be honest to the scriptures.



See, that's just it. The text did not specify Torah. You did.
You seem to only see the literal, which is the type of the spiritual. And thus you miss the deeper meaning, which is meant for ALL God's people(spiritual Jews).


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2017)

I would agree that Paul is addressing the Jews of Rome. I would also agree that sin has no dominion over Christians just as the Law has no dominion over Jews. 
Perhaps it is a parallel that Paul is teaching by using those that know the Law as an example.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Know ye not, brethren,.... The apostle having asserted, Romans 6:14, that the believing Romans were "not under the law"; which he knew would be displeasing to many, and excepted to by them, especially the Jews that were among them, who though they believed in Christ, yet were zealous of the law, takes it up again, and explains and defends it. That they were the Jewish converts at Rome he here particularly addresses, appears partly from his calling them "brethren", for they were so according to the flesh, as well as in a spiritual relation, and this he rather mentions to soften their resentments, and conciliate their minds to him; and partly from the words included in a parenthesis, 

Barne's notes;
For I speak to them ... - Probably the apostle refers here more particularly to the Jewish members of the Roman church, who were qualified particularly to understand the nature of the Law, and to appreciate the argument. That there were many Jews in the church at Rome has been shown (see Introduction); but the illustration has no exclusive reference to them. The Law to which he appeals is sufficiently general to make the illustration intelligible to all people.

Benson Commentary
Romans 7:1-3. Know ye not, brethren — The apostle, having shown that justified and regenerated persons are free from the dominion of sin, shows here that they are also free from the yoke of the Mosaic law, it being dead to them, Romans 7:6; and they to it, Romans 7:4 : for I speak to them that know the law — To the Jews or proselytes chiefly here; that the law — The Mosaic dispensation in general, to which you were espoused by Moses; hath dominion over a man — Over a Jew married to it, and engaged to observe it; as long as he — Rather, as long as it liveth; that is, abideth in force, and no longer.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 1, 2017)

welderguy said:


> See, that's just it. The text did not specify Torah. You did.
> You seem to only see the literal, which is the type of the spiritual. And thus you miss the deeper meaning, which is meant for ALL God's people(spiritual Jews).



Roman's 7:6 (law)  3551. nomos ►
Strong's Concordance
nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: nomos
Phonetic Spelling: (nom'-os)
Short Definition: a law, the Mosaic Law
Definition: usage, custom, law; in NT: of law in general, plur: of divine laws; of a force or influence impelling to action; of the Mosaic law; meton: of the books which contain the law, the Pentateuch, the Old Testament scriptures in general

In just a little bit,  Paul is going to start referring to a different law... But so far he is only speaking of Moses law per Roman's 7:6

Unless you can make nomos  mean Christ's law..

Then we will be forced to look at the context closer.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 1, 2017)

Romans 7:5-6
For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code. 

This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?

Now compare this to the Gentiles and sinful passions of the flesh. They were never under the Law yet still had sinful passions. They too having died to what they were once bound to or maybe were never a part of.
Yet did their grafting in take away their sinful passions or just the boundness to their sinful passions?


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## welderguy (Jun 1, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Roman's 7:6 (law)  3551. nomos ►
> Strong's Concordance
> nomos: that which is assigned, hence usage, law
> Original Word: νόμος, ου, ὁ
> ...



I can.

Romans 2:15
15 Which shew the work of the nomoj (law)written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

and...


Heb.10:16
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my nomoj( laws) into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;


This says it all:

Hebrews 10:1

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things...


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## Israel (Jun 1, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 7:5-6
> For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
> 
> This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?
> ...



Worthy point.  The gentiles, who had never been "under the law"...found also...a law at work...if they tried to "do good" to please God (apart from faith). Now as believers...they found the prohibition Paul speaks of, and discover (perhaps as I have ) I did not know the depths of sins claim as I am "seeking" to be justified in Christ. Yes...there is much uncovered. You may say "but are you not free?" Indeed we are, but the renewing of the mind is not complete at the moment of conception...and there is much the mind needs renewed.

The truth that we are washed and forgiven never departs...but as we make our first steps to now "follow", we find a resistance as completely unknown to us prior...a thing that does not want to make way at all, in any measure for Jesus Christ. If we think this will be seen as overcome by "adding " more efforts to be "good"...we find this thing in like measure also strengthened till frustration may be so profound in our "trying" to be good...we all but despair.
It is the "soul" trying to improve itself...not won to the truth of the spirit, "ye have died and your lives are hidden with Christ in God".

The truth of this is not a thing of which we are immediately made aware...and it can be that only in and through the many thwarting's...we are finally bought to acknowledge it. "Of myself, I can do nothing"

And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:


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## StriperAddict (Jun 1, 2017)

Israel said:


> It is the "soul" trying to improve itself...not won to the truth of the spirit, "ye have died and your lives are hidden with Christ in God".
> 
> The truth of this is not a thing of which we are immediately made aware...and it can be that only in and through the many thwarting's...we are finally bought to acknowledge it. "Of myself, I can do nothing"



Amen to us finding freedom in:
The renewing of our mind ... where we grow in the truth of our boundless covenant with Christ and the Father;

And in finding that there is an entity,
a "law" or a power at work ...

Paul put it this way in Rom 7, "I see a different law in the members of my body"

Sin has 2 definitions,
1) Verb, as in sins comitted,
and 
2) NOUN, 
Sin as a "resident power", an organized force, but NOT as an actual Identity of the believer.
This is tough to swallow, especially considering we labor much in our own "fight" against this power.  God discussed it as a noun, in the masculine form in Genisis:
"Sin -- is crouching at the door"

So if we take the Rom 7 definition and agree that this "power of sin" is an external, NOT internal to our Spirit, Soul and heart,
then we have choices to make when "sin" comes knocking in our thoughts.
Such thoughts are NOT us, no not "from us" and this is important if we are to understand the fight and have any ongoing freedom as believers,

"We are destroying speculations (coming from the power of sin)
and 
"we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ"

What I'm trying to say, albeit poorly, is that this so called "sin nature" died in our death with Christ,
but just as Jesus was tempted in all things as we (and not always from a direct encounter with the devil, but the power of sin itself)
Then we too can take the sin pressure coming from our flesh (not heart/Spirit) and with God's truth ... kick it to the pit where it belongs.

Hobbs, FYI, I believe Rom 7 is a victory chapter, in that Paul found that this sin (noun) was part of his body of flesh, and although the struggle as a believer seemed to appear as coming from his "old self" -- he was clear that this power of sin would not be an imposing master, even if in "the members of his body".
"Our old man is crucified with Christ,
that the body (power) of sin might be destroyed (made ineffective, lost its influence), 
and that coming with the continued renewing of our minds, we would have our old false beliefs challenged with the truth.  

This power of sin is not us, but it "speaks" to us, in our flesh.  And it makes for us seeing more clearly that the last battlefield will be fought in the mind.
It would be well for us to consider that the Spirit of God, fully at home in our (purified) hearts, will endeavor to "make all grace abound" with the truth of our new true nature in Christ.  (And this is where sin, the counterfeit, would want to steal our understanding)

"Encourage one another daily"  yes, let truth have its way to free us from stinkin thinkin


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## StriperAddict (Jun 1, 2017)

*Freedom from law is freedom from sin*

This does better justice to Romans Ch 7 in 5 min than my ramblings    I hope it helps the discussion:


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 2, 2017)

The title drew my attention.... thinking, this is applicable for Christians, much more so than your typical topic or message found in churches today, of how to clean up the flesh. After reading the comments, the title and the comments are derailed. Great topic/title. I feel as Paul many times. What I know I should do, I don't. And what I don't want to do, I do. I disappoint myself, in view of Christ. Paul's not talking about murder, porn or anything vile. He is talking about overcoming self. We have died to it, although it still lives in us, just as Adam was cursed with death, but did not die at that moment. We have crucified it with Christ although we have never been on a cross. It still lives, self, that nature that man tried to overcome, and it is a constant reminder to keep us humble, otherwise we would think we deserve heaven on our own merit. I'm encouraged by Paul's struggle, likely meant as encouragement rather than a confession


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## Israel (Jun 2, 2017)

In the day you eat of it, you shall die.
The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Die? To what? What died...to what?
God still sees the soul, does He not?

But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what God said to you: ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”

The soul ate a "bill of goods" in trying to be like God.

For God does know that in the day you eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

But eyes opened to one thing, closed to another.

And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

We got conned into thinking the knowing of good and evil...is all.
(And what man doesn't believe he does? Know good from evil?)

What use of God then...if the man can see good and evil?
Oh, how great a fall there! Unknown to the soul in the very moment of eating. Adam "to himself" remained alive..."gee, I still am" don't know what that death or whatever the Lord was talking about...He said something would happen...but all I know now is I see good and evil...but quick...let's go hide!

Totally unseeing, totally unknowing, totally blind to what he is, what he had become, what he now did, and was doing...thinking he now knows good from evil...in just the measure...to hide from God. Can we see? Do we see? How much more of_ that result_ must we know in ourselves...see...in ourselves...before we admit...yes, _I have lost connection_. My soul is blind! What it thinks it knows...even in and of "good and evil" is totally corrupted...it knows of it, but in the truest sense...knows really nothing of it. Because what it "thinks" it knows...is all, more than merely askew...but reversed. Hide from friend...and give itself to enemy.

But God...still sees the soul...and has mercy. Do we really doubt that God didn't "see" Adam? "Where are you?"

It was Adam...who didn't see Adam...where he was, what he was doing...all the while now convinced he did! Knew "enough" to think he could hide from God. How much of that "enough" do we still want? Is the lesson not yet complete?


This scripture makes no sense if we believe Adam truly knows anything more than good and evil are...but is also able to discern between them.

But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

Do we hear? Do we see?

Truly, truly, I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. If you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 2, 2017)

Israel said:


> In the day you eat of it, you shall die.
> The soul that sinneth, it shall die.
> 
> Die? To what? What died...to what?
> ...



Ahh...the key...the crux...the ground...the foundation of the relationship.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I can.
> 
> Romans 2:15
> 15 Which shew the work of the nomoj (law)written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
> ...




Sorry I was pulled away from this for a little while. 
 Welder..I think you're trying to thread the needle here with your interpretation .

Is it Spiritual law that Paul and his brethren  ( Jewish Christians)  were dead to in v4?  


 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.


So it cant be.. And that makes Torah the subject of the chapter. 
Agree?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 7:5-6
> For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the Law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6 But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the Law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
> 
> This Law the Jews were under aroused sinful passions. Having died to what bound them, removed what? The sinful passions of the flesh?
> ...



 I'm not sure exactly what youre asking in your questions.  Paul is talking to his Jewish brethren that had left Torah... So he's showing how they were once bound to Torah which promised death.., but now they are in the Spirit which gives life.. It's an old covenant vs.  New covenant scenario. 

 The Judaizers were attacking these Jewish Christians.. They knew how to inflict pain on them and shame them into considering going back to that which they had died to.... Torah.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 2, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> This does better justice to Romans Ch 7 in 5 min than my ramblings    I hope it helps the discussion:



This guy is almost spot on. Very good video,  I only fault him on not considering the audience relevance in the text.. And the real struggle Paul and other Jewish Christians were going through in that day,  when the Temple was still standing and Mosaic Judaism was larger and stronger in numbers than Christianity.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 2, 2017)

I liked Farley's message as well. So he sees sin as an outside force and not one of our two natures. Mainly because we take on a new nature with Christ's death. Our old self died with Christ. 
Yet sin was our nature before we died with Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 2, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not sure exactly what youre asking in your questions.  Paul is talking to his Jewish brethren that had left Torah... So he's showing how they were once bound to Torah which promised death.., but now they are in the Spirit which gives life.. It's an old covenant vs.  New covenant scenario.
> 
> The Judaizers were attacking these Jewish Christians.. They knew how to inflict pain on them and shame them into considering going back to that which they had died to.... Torah.



What I was saying earlier is that in Romans 7 Paul is describing Jews trying to live by Law and grace. Farley should have referred to this more than he did as you suggested. 
Now we can take Paul's message,(the tree in the forest) and apply it to us as gentiles grafted in. We can see or compare  Romans 7 to grace and sin or the Law and grace as Farley mentions. If we continue to think it more than grace then we will ultimately fail just as the Jews Paul mentioned would fail if they continued to live by  Law and grace.
I would agree Paul was discussing Jews who were trying to do this or thinking of returning to the Law while still using grace.  
We can take that lesson as Gentiles and use it as us trying to live by law and grace. Grace doesn't work that way.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 2, 2017)

Banjo Picker said:


> (Rom.7:7-8:13) Paul in this section of Romans gives his own experience of being bound to the law of sin and death, and his deliverance from it to prove SIN IS SOMETHING SEPARATE FROM MAN HIMSELF which DOMINATES him and makes him transgress the law of God.
> 1. By the law is the knowledge of sin (Rom.7:7).
> 2. Sin itself is the thing in me that is sinful, working in me all evil desires, and asserts its mastership and refuses to permit me to obey the law of God as I desire (Rom. 7:7, 8).
> 3. Sin itself is, the thing in me that rebels against the law and makes me break it, so that death penalty of the broken law can be carried out to kill me (Rom. 7:9).
> ...



So you see sin as a separate force that interferes with you keeping the Law? Then how do you perceive what Jesus died for? To rid you of sin so that you can keep the Law? How do you explain grace? Grace to rid you of sin so that you can keep Law?
What percentage does grace cover in allowing you to keep Law? Meaning exactly what measure do you use to know how much Law you keep to maintain salvation?

Do you really see anyone ever being capable of keeping Law, Jew or Gentile, saved or not saved, considering that this outside force of sin is always present? Say it moved from our flesh at salvation to an outside force. It's still there. We still sin. We can't keep Law. Never could and never will. 
That's the reason Jesus died on a cross. Not just to move sin from our flesh to outside our flesh. In doing so we can't keep Law and we still sin.

I don't believe Jesus died on a cross to remove sin so that we could keep Law. If that's the way it works, it ain't working.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> So you see sin as a separate force that interferes with you keeping the Law? Then how do you perceive what Jesus died for? To rid you of sin so that you can keep the Law? How do you explain grace? Grace to rid you of sin so that you can keep Law?
> What percentage does grace cover in allowing you to keep Law? Meaning exactly what measure do you use to know how much Law you keep to maintain salvation?
> 
> Do you really see anyone ever being capable of keeping Law, Jew or Gentile, saved or not saved, considering that this outside force of sin is always present? Say it moved from our flesh at salvation to an outside force. It's still there. We still sin. We can't keep Law. Never could and never will.
> ...



Art, I don't think God gave us His Spirit and grace to live but then go back and use the law as a safety net.  Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
My point is that the cross and the resurrection destroy any safety net.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> What I was saying earlier is that in Romans 7 Paul is describing Jews trying to live by Law and grace. Farley should have referred to this more than he did as you suggested.
> Now we can take Paul's message,(the tree in the forest) and apply it to us as gentiles grafted in. We can see or compare  Romans 7 to grace and sin or the Law and grace as Farley mentions. If we continue to think it more than grace then we will ultimately fail just as the Jews Paul mentioned would fail if they continued to live by  Law and grace.
> I would agree Paul was discussing Jews who were trying to do this or thinking of returning to the Law while still using grace.
> We can take that lesson as Gentiles and use it as us trying to live by law and grace. Grace doesn't work that way.




 We can take that as a message on the blessing of grace. I see something else here. 

 I see a small group of Jew's that have been enlightened spiritually to God's truth in His Son.  They are at odds with their nation and probably at odds with many family members.  We know Jew's were persecuting them for their faith in Jesus.

 If their fleshly minds wanted to make their stay on this earth easier,  all they had to do was walk away from Christ and return to the Old physical system. That also meant dealing with sin again.. And the wage of sin.. Death.   Many had probably lost family members,  lost their inheritance,  lost friendships..not unlike folks today,  when they trust in the lord,  yet see something different from what their established denomination teaches. 

 Thanks be to God though.. They knew their persecution was only for that present time.


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## Israel (Jun 3, 2017)

If the cross has not shown us the work of God in restoration as all that is contrary to a particular "way" of thinking, and by that most particular contrariness, destroyed that way of thinking, then we yet remain what operates according to (its own) knowledge of good and evil.
Our soul discerns it, and then from there then imparts, according to its whim, its judgment in all...it assigns "this is good", this...is evil.
It yet thinks..."being  bad" is the issue, not knowing the sight that faith, and only faith, delivers. It is no more nor any different than what has always been in operation in all:

"Every way of a man is right (good) in his own eyes:"
Yet it is the latter half with which the man of faith comes aware (though he could not know the above apart from faith, either.): 

but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

"Everything is open and laid bare before him with whom we have to do."

This is where we now live, in that presence, where darkness of mind (once received by consumption...no less as a virus is consumed in the opening of a promised "good" email..."You have won 5,000$) "Ye shall be as God." 

The corruption was never the enticement...but a promise of a _seemingly_ good thing, that hid it within. To see it has corrupted all down to most fundamental level of the OS is no small matter...but it cannot be discerned in itself. Nor of itself.

Who has believed our message and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

Yes, there is a loftiness in saying "it is no small matter". The depth of the corruption is measured, not of itself, nor can be...it can only be measured by seeing the depths and heights employed in its correction...its (our) redemption.
To think casually upon, and therefore remark casually upon the "all" of the all of the work done in and through Jesus Christ our Lord, shows only where we are. It is only the light of both His mind, and His mind_ing_, made known to us now through the Spirit, that lets us appreciate the depths of his descent in humility of obedience in order to touch the depths in man that could in no other way be healed.
Yes, he had to go deeper than the OS, past the place of "I assent"...past the reasonings of all corrupted reasoning..to bring the light of true Reason. It is the place against which the soul has no availing to either "make" Jesus Lord, nor unseat Him. (to do what it considers "good" to show Him, or in resistance think it may "hide" Him, or has hidden Him)

From that place alone the man is informed...in either darkness or light. The place from which it is revealed to the soul...or not..."I can do nothing of myself". The soul that still barters with itself, speaks to itself of doing good or evil does not yet realize it is bartering of debt. The commerce there is ALL of wrong.

Can a "believer" erroneously think he can live from his own soul?
Surely the scriptures are full of reproofs and reprimands and warnings. Live from where "his own" knowledge of good and evil...rule?

Do the experiment. Each of us cannot help but do so. We _are_ in it.

Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the _hidden part _You will make me to know wisdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> Art, I don't think God gave us His Spirit and grace to live but then go back and use the law as a safety net.  Unless I'm misunderstanding you.
> My point is that the cross and the resurrection destroy any safety net.



I would agree, the cross is the safety net, not keeping the Law. I was asking Banjo Picker how he sees it. It sounds like he is saying the cross removed sin so that he could keep the Law.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> We can take that as a message on the blessing of grace. I see something else here.
> 
> I see a small group of Jew's that have been enlightened spiritually to God's truth in His Son.  They are at odds with their nation and probably at odds with many family members.  We know Jew's were persecuting them for their faith in Jesus.
> 
> ...



This reminds me of the JWs at may door who when told they are to a cult, say yes and early Christians were so accused.


There is something about "seeing different" that does not sit well when it reaches out beyond the garden of Eden so to speak... or that overreaches God's promises... or that makes the Kingdom political or intelectual even. And does  "seeing different"  serve the glory of God or man's? When is seeing just long hair on a Greek and when is it a faculty to serve man from our Lord's cross?

 To be "born again from above" does not make the glory of God different, his truths differently seen, his promises differently understood from one generation to the next, especially that Christians are one generation-- yet it makes all to see differently than when not in the new way!

Eve said the Lord meant to Adam something contrary as previously seen and was she ever wrong. Why would one or a few say to many that despite the centuries and to the contrary of that believed, seen, and understood by those ever intimate with Jesus through the Holy Spirit -- contrary that the  Lord will come, fact that our Lord has returned to a second coming-- and be thought as not the son of Eve? What is so different in the promise God made to a saint in the 18th century to the one living today? Why would a saint in the 11th century assured of the promises of his Lord by faith, as is ours today, not pray as we pray for a body resurrected, the forgiveness of sin and the day the Lord will come as witnessed by the Good News ---resurrected! and the saints resurrected as Him.

Does faith need long haired Greeks to especially light up God's light...and seeing things different? Paul he was from seeing or blindness an apostle? Seeing he was a sinner, blinded he became a saint. Seeing he did not see, blinded he saw. And what he saw and said is sufficient to seeing different I think. It is enough for all who believe. Being like Paul is  seeing different enough. And putting words in Paul's mouth is since questionably seen.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> This reminds me of the JWs at may door who when told they are to a cult, say yes and early Christians were so accused.



It never serves the Kingdom well to blast those outside the gates.  We as children are suppose to say,  Come!  Come in to this kingdom!  
 The JW is a very trained debator.  They have answers for all the usual questions and derogatory comments. They most likely know more about scripture than most Christians that spend a lifetime in church.  I have broken a few down and had them send me private messages stating they were now questioning what they were being taught.... But these usually leave the FB group and I never hear from them again, most likely they mentioned their doubts to an elder and were dealt with accordingly to be put back in line...  That's not Liberty in Christ,  that's bondage to a law.


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## Israel (Jun 3, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> This reminds me of the JWs at may door who when told they are to a cult, say yes and early Christians were so accused.
> 
> 
> There is something about "seeing different" that does not sit well when it reaches out beyond the garden of Eden so to speak... or that overreaches God's promises... or that makes the Kingdom political or intelectual even. And does  "seeing different"  serve the glory of God or man's? When is seeing just long hair on a Greek and when is it a faculty to serve man from our Lord's cross?
> ...



If I hear you in my hearing and attention...it is that the hearing of Paul, is to hear the substance of Paul, to go, (if you will) in the words...to beyond the words...to the man. To touch the truth (again, if you will) of the man...and thereby (by a means of a ministration out from a place beyond "our own" control) be brought to confess "this man is true". Or...not.

In that sense perhaps we have touched spirit, and spirit ministers as only spirit does...life. In that then, the words, though being first "bridge"...now appear not as "mere" tools...or means...but also of true substance.


We can look at this statement on face:


Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you yourselves not my workmanship in the Lord? Even if I am not an apostle to others, surely I am to you. For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

We needn't go far. We take the words apart...we look at a thing that does not even seem up for any repudiation...yet Paul plainly states "it could be". "I may not be an apostle to others"...(Beware those who would try to hang you by context...for they are themselves...hung here)


But here is what is of greater weight than words read and discerned according to what men seek to hang others with of "plainness". "It's so plain! Anyone should get it!"

Beyond the admission that this man makes ...(if one has seen)  of the richness of things bequeathed him...is the man willing to say "I may not be an apostle to others". 
It could make one laugh...or cry, depending, or just rejoice, how that "that man" is thought so apprehended by some that they will endorse him...with an endorsement he never even took to himself. 

How will such a man be "contextualized"? Does my "having been a gentile" after the flesh..._automatically_ make him_ my __apostle_?
Did his, does his "knowing" have an implicit "I am an apostle of all time to all gentiles?" He surely never appears to have said that...especially to the _very extreme_ of a contextualizer...he wrote to whom he wrote...and since I am neither of Corinth, nor Galatia, nor anything other than presently, Guyton Georgia...what discretion is allowed to accept or reject? (Yet each man eats where he eats)

Some may say "Oh, but it's the Bible!" "The BIBLE!" Well, by what power does one have to endorse a thing, that of that thing in and of itself...bears witness to "certain"? For here is where spirit alone reigns...and all of "I endorse" is of no consequence...in the extreme.

Some will understand here the nature of the presumption by which every man is found. And found out. What will be the hope of the man who quotes...uses..."Paul's words"...when the man himself yet refuses the "substance"...of Paul?
What man will quote letters to Timothy, written as to a son who had served his father in the gospel (reading another's mail) and thinking thereby...that the simple reading and quoting will come at no consequence? 

"I can play at the pond if I want to!" Everyone "else" has told me, I not only can...but should!

Yes...but you may well indeed slip in.

Ahhh, it is here a man may be found out, found all "out"...in his own presumption. And here a man might hear a thing about searching the scriptures and eternal life...his desk abounding with commentaries, notes, and endless perusals the soul telling itself "this is life"...until...the slip...ordained.

A voice from beyond the soul begins to speak to a thing lured by its own presumptions to the place it now knows it must be saved from. "All it knows" is of no avail then. All surmise and previous advice to the soul pales. 

One has slipped and fallen into the Living God, and being...and not being are both of equal mass here, there is no discerning between them. "I may be" "I may not be" are indistinguishable of preference. One cannot make themselves to be...nor other. What is...is. Here.
The soul's choices of what is for who, who is for what stand less in judgment than the overarching knowing that it is that very presumption of choices assumed to itself...is what now stands in the awful docket.


Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry I was pulled away from this for a little while.
> Welder..I think you're trying to thread the needle here with your interpretation .
> 
> Is it Spiritual law that Paul and his brethren  ( Jewish Christians)  were dead to in v4?
> ...



It's not just Torah in verse 4 that Paul is dealing with. It's Torah and everything the old law represented. The whole "do this and live" mentality. This is still a common misconception today. People think they can do something to be saved. When they fall into that bondage, they have "fallen from grace".

Galatians 5:4
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.


You may never be able to understand what I'm saying here because in my opinion, anyone who believes in freewill salvation is in this very condition.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> It's not just Torah in verse 4 that Paul is dealing with. It's Torah and everything the old law represented. The whole "do this and live" mentality. This is still a common misconception today. People think they can do something to be saved. When they fall into that bondage, they have "fallen from grace".
> 
> Galatians 5:4
> 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
> ...



I think you are painting with a broad brush. I've never heard Hobbs or Striperaddict say  there was grace plus the Law. 
Hobbs just sees Romans 7 as a Jews falling back to the Law.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think you are painting with a broad brush. I've never heard Hobbs or Striperaddict say  there was grace plus the Law.
> Hobbs just sees Romans 7 as a Jews falling back to the Law.



They won't come out and say there's grace plus law, but when someone says man must do something to be saved, that is essentially what they are saying. Salvation is totally by grace. Unmerited favor.

The whole book of Romans is outlining grace. That is the theme of it. 
There's your broad brush.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> They won't come out and say there's grace plus law, but when someone says man must do something to be saved, that is essentially what they are saying. Salvation is totally by grace. Unmerited favor.
> 
> The whole book of Romans is outlining grace. That is the theme of it.
> There's your broad brush.



 If man need do nothing for salvation... Why are we even here... Why didn't God just create all His elect in heaven?


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## gemcgrew (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> If man need do nothing for salvation... Why are we even here... Why didn't God just create all His elect in heaven?


And why didn't He first consult with Hobbs? Who does He think He is?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

gemcgrew said:


> And why didn't He first consult with Hobbs? Who does He think He is?



Bless your heart.


----------



## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> If man need do nothing for salvation... Why are we even here... Why didn't God just create all His elect in heaven?



He gets ALL the glory.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 3, 2017)

If I throw a life vest to a drowning man, he needs to reach for it. In doing so, he knows he's drowning, otherwise he sinks, only realizing he can't breath under water after it's to late.  Did he work for the life vest? No.  Reach to take a hold of grace.  "Do" and "work" are not the same. You guys are talking about the same thing.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> He gets ALL the glory.



Yes He does, this doesn't answer the question though.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> If I throw a life vest to a drowning man, he needs to reach for it. In doing so, he knows he's drowning, otherwise he sinks, only realizing he can't breath under water after it's to late.  Did he work for the life vest? No.  Reach to take a hold of grace.  "Do" and "work" are not the same. You guys are talking about the same thing.



Then I have to ask you this:

If Jesus throws a life vest to one that He died for and the person decides he will not accept the life vest and drowns, how can Jesus still say he will lose none?

Wouldn't that contradict John 6:39?

John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes He does, this doesn't answer the question though.



You 'll have to take that up with Him.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 3, 2017)

I was watching a movie (Pride and Glory, which I cannot recommend do to outrageously vulgar language and violence) which included a scene between a husband and wife which had little to do with the plot; but helped to develop the motivation for end of story action by the husband related to his career.  At a poignant moment—all of their moments would have been poignant as she was dying of cancer, but only two were depicted in the movie—he pulled, a box from his pocket and opened it saying, “Will you accept it?”  She replied, “I have to, it’s a gift.”

When you see an advertisement on TV which offers you a “free gift”, you always have to react to that offer or you will not receive the gift; actually, you have already been given the programing that the advertiser sponsored as enticement to expose yourself to his “offer”, (if you pay an entertainment provider, he acts as a broker).  For the advertiser and his broker the incentive for your having been given something is the givers anticipated benefit.

Either of those scenarios could be applied to our relationship with God, but both are incomplete.  The former assumes the existing relationship.  The latter assumes that the receiver of the “free gift” has something that the giver wants.

As to the latter, most would agree, and scripture tells us, that God desires obedience, by which His glory is revealed.  Some recognize that obedience as an element of God’s plan for giving His gift to others of His People.  In this scenario God broadcasts His offer of a “free gift” and, more or less, awaits the anticipated response.  But does the recipient of His message have obedience with which to respond?  Obviously not, as God interceded, through His Son, and gave it to Himself, crediting it to His People? “….because He first loved us”.

In applying the former scenario to our relationship with God the assumed prior relationship of love between the parties is initiated when God gives His People a new heart.  With the new heart God’s People are enabled with new sight and new hearing, with which they perceive the awesome nature of God and His love, and respond in love.  As the wife knew, and stated, a gift that is known to be given in love, to one who loves the giver, must be accepted.



One must wonder, is it short sighted to view salvation as the end (goal) of creation; effectively making creation about creatures?  Or, is regeneration (a new heart) the next step of creation leading to the goal of creation, which is the revelation of God’s glory; making creation about God?


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## centerpin fan (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Then I have to ask you this:
> 
> If Jesus throws a life vest to one that He died for and the person decides he will not accept the life vest and drowns, how can Jesus still say he will lose none?
> 
> Wouldn't that contradict John 6:39?



No, because I think you're reading too much into John 6:39.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> They won't come out and say there's grace plus law, but when someone says man must do something to be saved, that is essentially what they are saying. Salvation is totally by grace. Unmerited favor.
> 
> The whole book of Romans is outlining grace. That is the theme of it.
> There's your broad brush.



I'm suddenly reminded of the many "homosexuals in Heaven" threads. I guess we could say man doesn't have to do anything because of grace but the Holy Spirit has to get busy sometimes.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Then I have to ask you this:
> 
> If Jesus throws a life vest to one that He died for and the person decides he will not accept the life vest and drowns, how can Jesus still say he will lose none?
> 
> ...



None of the Jews that the Father gave Jesus ever returned to the Law? If this wasn't possible why did Paul even mention it? Why are there so many verses warning the early Jews to not return to the Law if it were not possible for them to do so?


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm suddenly reminded of the many "homosexuals in Heaven" threads. I guess we could say man doesn't have to do anything because of grace but the Holy Spirit has to get busy sometimes.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

centerpin fan said:


> No, because I think you're reading too much into John 6:39.



How do you mean?


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> None of the Jews that the Father gave Jesus ever returned to the Law? If this wasn't possible why did Paul even mention it? Why are there so many verses warning the early Jews to not return to the Law if it were not possible for them to do so?



Are you implying that if a person returns to the law, they lose salvation?
Impossible.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Are you implying that if a person returns to the law, they lose salvation?
> Impossible.



There's no Torah to return to today... It was destroyed sometime in the first century after all scripture was written.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Then I have to ask you this:
> 
> If Jesus throws a life vest to one that He died for and the person decides he will not accept the life vest and drowns, how can Jesus still say he will lose none?
> 
> ...


I don't care to use the bible as traps via wording, if I did I would point out that "he died for all" where you said "one that he died for". It's just a trap you have set. Your not really intending to change the subject to whether "Jesus would lose none", it's simply the first trap that you saw you could set. Good luck with finding any Christian fellowship, because that trap mindset will alienate you


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> There's no Torah to return to today... It was destroyed sometime in the first century after all scripture was written.



Matthew 5:17

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


>



Quote:
Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
I'm suddenly reminded of the many "homosexuals in Heaven" threads. I guess we could say man doesn't have to do anything because of grace but the Holy Spirit has to get busy sometimes.

OK, in those threads, repentance being one, the homosexual had to repent from his ways to gain salvation. The reformed view of salvation is from grace only/election only. Therefore for the homosexual to gain salvation, the Holy Spirit must produce the fruit to make the necessary changes in the homosexual because if the "man" did it himself, it would be a work.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> I don't care to use the bible as traps via wording, if I did I would point out that "he died for all" where you said "one that he died for". It's just a trap you have set. Your not really intending to change the subject to whether "Jesus would lose none", it's simply the first trap that you saw you could set. Good luck with finding any Christian fellowship, because that trap mindset will alienate you



No trap intended, I assure you.


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## welderguy (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by Artfuldodger View Post
> I'm suddenly reminded of the many "homosexuals in Heaven" threads. I guess we could say man doesn't have to do anything because of grace but the Holy Spirit has to get busy sometimes.
> 
> OK, in those threads, repentance being one, the homosexual had to repent from his ways to gain salvation. The reformed view of salvation is from grace only/election only. Therefore for the homosexual to gain salvation, the Holy Spirit must produce the fruit to make the necessary changes in the homosexual because if the "man" did it himself, it would be a work.



 still


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> There's no Torah to return to today... It was destroyed sometime in the first century after all scripture was written.



Even today though and without the Torah, can't a man try to add something to grace he feels necessary to do for salvation?
Call it Torah, Law, works, or whatever some people believe it necessary for salvation. So it's possible for some people even today to try to add something with grace. This is possibly why Romans 7 can be used by us as an example. Even though Romans 7 was about Jews returning to Torah it can still be used as an example of modern day Christians adding something to or with grace for salvation.

Remember the Farley video?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Are you implying that if a person returns to the law, they lose salvation?
> Impossible.



Which is impossible? Returning to the law or losing salvation? 
Suppose I was to join a Messianic Sabbath keeping Church and started to keep Torah?

James 5:19-20
My brothers, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring him back, 20consider this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and cover over a multitude of sins.

Had they wandered from the truth(gospel) and returned to the Law? "Someone" meaning a man can return one to the truth?

Galatians 3:2-3
Let me ask you this one question: Did you receive the Holy Spirit by obeying the law of Moses? Of course not! You received the Spirit because you believed the message you heard about Christ.
3How foolish can you be? After starting your Christian lives in the Spirit, why are you now trying to become perfect by your own human effort?


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Matthew 5:17
> 
> 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.



Destroyed. Fulfilled... Either way,  it is no more.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even today though and without the Torah, can't a man try to add something to grace he feels necessary to do for salvation?
> Call it Torah, Law, works, or whatever some people believe it necessary for salvation. So it's possible for some people even today to try to add something with grace. This is possibly why Romans 7 can be used by us as an example. Even though Romans 7 was about Jews returning to Torah it can still be used as an example of modern day Christians adding something to or with grace for salvation.
> 
> Remember the Farley video?



 Yes it can be used.... But I like to look at it as the author intended it to be and as the audience would have received it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 3, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes it can be used.... But I like to look at it as the author intended it to be and as the audience would have received it.



Then can we use this as an example of how sin works within us?

17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law.23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.

Keeping in mind that Paul was addressing Jews who were thinking of returning to the Law.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 3, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then can we use this as an example of how sin works within us?
> 
> 17In that case, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; for I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want to do. Instead, I keep on doing the evil I do not want to do. 20And if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21So this is the principle I have discovered: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God’s Law.23But I see another law at work in my body, warring against the law of my mind and holding me captive to the law of sin that dwells within me. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with my mind I serve the law of God, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
> 
> Keeping in mind that Paul was addressing Jews who were thinking of returning to the Law.



No.. This was specific to those Jew's... I'll explain more in detail in the morning... Good night all.


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## welderguy (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Destroyed. Fulfilled... Either way,  it is no more.



Rom.3:31
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 4, 2017)

Reading over this thread this morning, I'm struck with the visage of John crying out in the wilderness.  The are a few sane voices, but the vast expanse is barren wilderness.  Truely there is nothing new under the sun.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then can we use this as an example of how sin works within us?
> 
> 
> Keeping in mind that Paul was addressing Jews who were thinking of returning to the Law.




  Yes,  keeping in mind that the futility of man that Paul is speaking of is the futility of a man under law.. Specifically Torah (Romans 7:6f) Paul is not discussing the futility of the Christian experience.. Is the redemption in Christ so ineffective,  so weak,  so lacking,  that Paul had to describe the Christian life as the "suffering of the present time"? (Romans 8:18)

Some here will say yes.. They force themselves into thinking our life of Christianity is miserable and we are all worthy of suffering... God's children no less. This is from a bad interpretation of scripture imo,  and that's all I'm doing here is showing the victory that Christ was giving these people. The victory over the bondage of the law of sin and death ( Torah). 

Paul pointed to it.  Romans 8: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

 They had no condemnation.. Because there was no indwelling sin.  Jesus had taken that at the cross for whosoever will.. It is made for all men,  but not all will take of it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2017)

If I no longer have a sinful nature, why do I still sin?

     “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?” Romans 6:1&2

    “Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?” Romans 6:3

    “We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.” Romans 6:4

    “We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.” Romans 6:6

    “For one who has died has been set free from sin.” Romans 6:7

    “Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.” Romans 6:8

    “So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.” Romans 6:11

    “For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.” Romans 6:14

    “But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,” Romans 6:17

    “and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” Romans 6:18

    “But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.” Romans 6:22


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## hobbs27 (Jun 4, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Rom.3:31
> 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.



This is a true saying.  Christ and all his works were contained in the Law.  The feast Sabbaths all pointed to Christ and the end of the Old covenant age,  so they weren't making it void.. They were experiencing it's fruition,  it's fullness,  or fulfillment.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 4, 2017)

I do understand the concept of my old self dying with Christ. I do understand my sins were washed. I do understand I'm a new person. I can even see sin as an outside force and not dwelling in my flesh anymore. I understand salvation by grace alone. I understand not being yoked to sin. I understand sin has no power over my salvation. 

Yet I still sin. Even though I'm dead to sin. Even though I have been set free.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 4, 2017)

The Jew's that had not accepted Christ in this first century were still clinging to the Old covenant.  The Apostles were still calling them out of it.. And it was about to vanish. 

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 4, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do understand the concept of my old self dying with Christ. I do understand my sins were washed. I do understand I'm a new person. I can even see sin as an outside force and not dwelling in my flesh anymore. I understand salvation by grace alone. I understand not being yoked to sin. I understand sin has no power over my salvation.
> 
> Yet I still sin. Even though I'm dead to sin. Even though I have been set free.
> 
> ...




 Imputed sin, is a sin charge,  it dwelled in man from Adam,  death was it's result.  The law was the Law of sin and death. They reigned the entire Old covenant.. Jesus defeated death.. It no longer reigns,  sin is no longer imputed to man,  Christ dwells in Christians not sin. 

 Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

So you do immoral things,  and you will have to deal with the One that dwells in you,  but sin will not bring on death if you are in Christ you have eternal life.  If sin brought on physical death... The earth would be rid of mankind.


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## welderguy (Jun 4, 2017)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Reading over this thread this morning, I'm struck with the visage of John crying out in the wilderness.  The are a few sane voices, but the vast expanse is barren wilderness.  Truely there is nothing new under the sun.



In your mind, which category would you see yourself in?


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## welderguy (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> ...Christ dwells in Christians not sin.



again...

Rom.7:17
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 4, 2017)

welderguy said:


> again...
> 
> Rom.7:17
> 17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but SIN THAT DWELLETH IN ME.



And again.. 

 Free from Indwelling Sin
Romans 
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death


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## welderguy (Jun 4, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> And again..
> 
> Free from Indwelling Sin
> Romans
> 8 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death



What you need to recognize is that sin does still dwell in us. You are correct when you say we have freedom from it through Christ, but that does not mean it is absent. It means that it no longer has dominion over us. In other words, we don't have to obey it as our master any longer.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 5, 2017)

welderguy said:


> What you need to recognize is that sin does still dwell in us. You are correct when you say we have freedom from it through Christ, but that does not mean it is absent. It means that it no longer has dominion over us. In other words, we don't have to obey it as our master any longer.




 What is your understanding of these verses alone?  Specifically about "when we were in the flesh".

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.


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## welderguy (Jun 5, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> What is your understanding of these verses alone?  Specifically about "when we were in the flesh".
> 
> Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.



This speaks of the time in our life when we were totally flesh. We were "married" to the flesh, one with the flesh. But there came a time when we were given liberty from the flesh and became one with Christ. 

We still contend with the flesh daily. Sometimes we even "adulterate" with the flesh, if I may be so blunt. But our husband is Jesus Christ. He paid the price for His bride and gave us His Spirit as an "engagement ring" so to speak.

Do a study on the Greek arrabona. It's found in Eph.1 as the "earnest" of our inheritance.
The modern Greek says it's an engagement ring.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 5, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.



 We see things differently again. 

Verse 1 Speaking to his Jewish brethren ( those who know the law) 

Verse 2 The woman = Old Covenant Israel married to God and bound to the Law.... God the Son dies...releasing her from the marriage contract... IE covenant. 

Verse 3  Shows how while Jesus lived Old Covenant Israel was an adulteress  " we have no king but Caesar " ..... But as He died,  setting her free it gave those of the Old covenant an opportunity to marry another.. The Son.  A new marriage contract was made.. IE covenant. 

Verse 4 Shows them as betrothed to Jesus.. This was their purification process.. Legally bound but not yet consummated in marriage... Not quiet in all the New Covenant had to offer. Romans 8:18 ylt 
For I reckon that the sufferings of the present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory ABOUT to be revealed in us;

Verse 5 in the flesh represents in the old covenant body... That is contrasted with in the Spirit which is Jesus or new covenant body.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 5, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> What is your understanding of these verses alone?  Specifically about "when we were in the flesh".
> 
> Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives? 2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband. 3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man. 4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. 5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.



I'll stab at it... 

For when we were in the flesh,....


(for when we were under the mediating law we then could know and become cognisant ( conscious) that sinful passions were at work in our makeup as human beings which was not ideal at all)  Now in the Spirit, (in Christ) we are still made aware of sin ---after all that is what our Savoir died for.)

The flesh here is a perhaps a synonym for law.  The pejorative use of the world flesh is only evident for the law according to Paul. And in the scheme of things Holy, in God's time ministering to man, the law is a hiccup, an eye bat.

For Paul the Spirit dresses, wraps around or covers the nakedness of a sinner. Or perhaps I can say the physical body ( that is doomed to death) that due its sin nature enters into a  covering covenant with the Holy Spirit, with God, by being in Christ. Christ now is the mediator as opposed to the law previous.  The law focused on sin, Jesus focuses on the love God has for man and God's nature in general since before time and times to follow.

 The   physical body  is still in a world of sinful tricks, law or no law, ( men behaved with evil intent before the law, with the law and still does today post the law) however man even the saved still needs mediation through our Lord via Holy Spirit. (Present need of prayer on earth and in heaven is the proof.)   So man is not yet fully covered or wrapped integrally with sinless nature. The promise follows that he will be.


The promise follows that at the Resurrection the flesh of the righteous will resurrect into their glorious bodies ( full of grace +p now), ( the mortal will take on ( put on like putting on a garment) the immortal not unlike the flesh of our resurrected Christ, and we will see God as He is again, as when man and God walked together and man sinless.

???


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## welderguy (Jun 5, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> We see things differently again.
> 
> Verse 1 Speaking to his Jewish brethren ( those who know the law)
> 
> ...



When Paul addresses those that know the law, he's in effect saying " let me put this concept in terms that you'll be familiar with. He's speaking their "lawyer" lingo, in other words, to convey something they'd never heard...the gospel.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 5, 2017)

welderguy said:


> When Paul addresses those that know the law, he's in effect saying " let me put this concept in terms that you'll be familiar with. He's speaking their "lawyer" lingo, in other words, to convey something they'd never heard...the gospel.



They did know the Gospel... These were Jewish Christians he was addressing.


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## hobbs27 (Jun 5, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> I'll stab at it...
> 
> For when we were in the flesh,....
> 
> ...



Very good Gordon.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 5, 2017)

Paul/Saul  makes the perfect example, because he was zealous for the law at one time. But eventually saw the light and all his works became as rubble, as he torn down his beautiful temple that he had figuratively built for God to dwell in, but as Stephen said "God does not live in houses made by man". He then declared, "by the grace of God, I am what I am" not by my best efforts or discipline. He then saw the gospel where we wait patiently for the righteousness that comes by faith, not works or discipline. Modern day churches have returned to the law figuratively because they teach how to clean the flesh. And there lies the pride of having accomplished righteousness, that beautiful temple, made by man, needing to be turned to rubble. Jesus said "not one of these stones will be left standing"


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 5, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Paul/Saul  makes the perfect example, because he was zealous for the law at one time. But eventually saw the light and all his works became as rumble, as he torn down his beautiful temple that he had figuratively built for God to dwell in, but as Stephen said "God does not live in houses made by man". He then declared, "by the grace of God, I am what I am" not by my best efforts or discipline. He then saw the gospel where we wait patiently for the righteousness that comes by faith, not works or discipline. Modern day churches have returned to the law figuratively because they teach how to clean the flesh. And there lies the pride of having accomplished righteousness, that beautiful temple, made by man, needing to be turned to rumble. Jesus said "not one of these stones will be left standing"



Well illustrated, was Saul looking for the life lifesaver or was his repentance his reaching for it?
Saul was drowning in his own temple. He repented from his way of thinking.


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## Israel (Jun 6, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well illustrated, was Saul looking for the life lifesaver or was his repentance his reaching for it?
> Saul was drowning in his own temple. He repented from his way of thinking.



It would appear it could be not only impossible to separate Paul's understanding of the revelation to him in his own testimony, as it would be helpful to not seek to.

He was, if we believe him, struck in a fury.

There is nothing to indicate that to Paul's opinion or seeing at the time, he was "lost" or in need of God in the sense we might use it. No. To the contrary, above all things he appears as one convinced head to toe he is completely given to the will of God in "breathing out threatenings and slaughters" against the people of God. He never once says anything to indicate in that endeavor he was convinced of anything but his complete rightness in that, and his wholeheartedly being given...to that.

We do know again through his letter to the Philippians that in those matter of flesh in which a man might boast, he has still not relinquished any ground that to himself would appear as pinnacle. Hebrew of Hebrews, touching the law, a Pharisee, etc. No, in all the things a man might appear to himself in any sort of worthiness, he well understood all of that attainment...meant absolutely...nothing. 


But I believe he saw further than mere uselessness...but to the very contrariness such appearance works. "If a man thinks he is something, when he is nothing" he wrote elsewhere; such thinking is set for the working against any and all that is true. And _of_ the truth.

A man must be "won away" from the beholding of himself, the consideration of himself as anything at all, lest he miss the heavenly vision of the man who is the "all in all".

It indeed takes a love greater than a man has for himself, and all he might "make of himself" (who would deny the miracle in the revelation of that?) to save him.

WE sometimes speak of election...the "why thens" and "why if thens" of it. Even lately the question has arisen "then why didn't God just_ create _all of His elect in heaven?

He did, and does.

and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
YLT


The elect One, the chosen One in who God the Father delights is of Heaven in all and every sense. Those found in him, if, so called believing in election or opposing (in some measure its truth) are found in him not by believing in election, not by speaking of election, not by seeking to uphold election as a thing unto itself...but by the truth that "He" alone is the elect One, he is the chosen One, He is the one to whom God the Father of all, has set His seal...as being in, and from, Heaven.

Jesus is Lord.


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## gordon 2 (Jun 6, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Paul/Saul  makes the perfect example, because he was zealous for the law at one time. But eventually saw the light and all his works became as rubble, as he torn down his beautiful temple that he had figuratively built for God to dwell in, but as Stephen said "God does not live in houses made by man". He then declared, "by the grace of God, I am what I am" not by my best efforts or discipline. He then saw the gospel where we wait patiently for the righteousness that comes by faith, not works or discipline. Modern day churches have returned to the law figuratively because they teach how to clean the flesh. And there lies the pride of having accomplished righteousness, that beautiful temple, made by man, needing to be turned to rubble. Jesus said "not one of these stones will be left standing"




" They teach how to clean the flesh..." Can you show an example or two?


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## StriperAddict (Jun 6, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> " They teach how to clean the flesh..." Can you show an example or two?



May I try?

Q: Does our adherence to the law, well, let's keep it really simple, say, the big 10, have any applauding from Providence/heaven (not to mention our own ego!) ??

Would the ones who might have zealous fervor in keeping all the 10 have any greater link to righteousness than sinners made right by a free gift?

Sneaky fellow that I can be - I often test the beloved with a statement such as ...

I truly love the Christ I see in you, and that always!

Sadly, many shoot right over to how well they have handled their law keeping, their performance, and more sadly still they might say how heaven is "beating them up" lately, "you just don't know what I've done".

Few might say, 
Christ, my very life - in my weakness He is strong, and faithful, yes I am blessed to reflect Him, however imperfectly.


To answer your question more directly, and from personal experiences, I too was counting up the times a command was dropped or obeyed in the hopes of that word "well done" was heard.  I thought that this religious performance was the be all and end all of how to live a good christian life.  

This nonsense is healed in a death and a resurrection.

God doesn't grade on a curve, nor can the 10 commandments, as perfect and beautiful as they are, ever impute life or "right-ness". No, in their very existence they do one thing and one thing quite well - slay the living tar out of the man well content in his performance of the same.

I see in another a greater "performer", better, a Perfect Man. What He has gained by merit of Father's word (law/torah, the 10, etc.) He takes and creates a better merit system "so to speak" ...
Coming on the scene of humanity He lives His earthly life to redeem, purchase back, those who were under the impossibility of that law, those words on pages, and yes, that stuff of the perfect ... etched on stone. 

And the Holy Spirit would call those etchings ... a ministry of condemnation.  wow, do we see? Far greater merits by the faith of Christ, and in Him and He in us.  And not of ourselves ... please Lord, shut down the boaster.

What the law could not do, God did ... wait, stop right there, reflect, smell, taste and see ...

God did.     GOD DID!

To the extent we stop striving
(cease striving and know something - "I Am")
and start resting - living out of the grace that saves ... 
yes in all our faithlessness and weakness,
He gives rest, He gives rest abundantly.

It's ok if you or I are uncomfortable with a right-ness that dashes our pride to pieces, we've had the old for many of our days.  It was our band-aid, our false face, our faker that we put on to cope with life.
And He does not judge us in this as anyone other than one who would be well equipped with His very Person, yes, His very nature.
Yes, we navigate anew!

So, I guess I am a sucker for the simple if it keeps me from the exhaustion of striving then!  

Yes, enough, I was a foolish, law striving Galatian for too long,
I could be called a fool ... for Another


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## Israel (Jun 6, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> May I try?
> 
> Q: Does our adherence to the law, well, let's keep it really simple, say, the big 10, have any applauding from Providence/heaven (not to mention our own ego!) ??
> 
> ...



Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.


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## welderguy (Jun 6, 2017)

StriperAddict said:


> May I try?
> 
> Q: Does our adherence to the law, well, let's keep it really simple, say, the big 10, have any applauding from Providence/heaven (not to mention our own ego!) ??
> 
> ...



To all this I say Amen...
but must give a cautious reminder to take heed of the death that James speaks of, and also those things that grieve the Holy Spirit that lives in us.

They are still very real to us, even with the liberty we have.


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## StriperAddict (Jun 6, 2017)

welderguy said:


> To all this I say Amen...
> but must give a cautious reminder to take heed of the death that James speaks of, and also those things that grieve the Holy Spirit that lives in us.
> 
> They are still very real to us, even with the liberty we have.



Indeed, not abusing this precious liberty as an occasion for the flesh, rather to serve one another in a love not our own; amen!


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## 1gr8bldr (Jun 6, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Let's put this in an old testament parallel. When Moses came to set the people free from bondage, from Pharoah, he upped the quota. More brick, more straw. They worked harder. Same thing when a new Christian comes into a church. Now that your saved, you need to do this and to do that. As if they don't really believe that the Holy Spirit is capable of change


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