# OK, 300.00 budget - What Muzzleloader



## Buford_Dawg (Mar 5, 2010)

I am on a 300.00 budget for a new ML for my 13 year old son.  He has shot my CVA Optima PRO the last 3 years and harvested 4 deer with it.  I am ready to buy him his own ML and take back my Optima.  I am thinking of the new Optima with the easy breech, but does anyone have other suggestions.  I already have a scope, so all I need is the ML.


----------



## Flintrock (Mar 5, 2010)

You and your son already know what your Optima can do. If you like it then get him the same.He will feel better about it too by knowing the he is shooting the same rifle as his father.


----------



## Flintrock (Mar 5, 2010)

Also,muzzleloders shoot different from one gun to another,but if you shoot the same kind of gun is more likely to favor the same primer/powder/bullet combinaion which means you only have to buy one kind for both and you can swap out stuff in the field when needed.


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 5, 2010)

cva Accura or the NEW cva Optima with the finger removable breech plug. Cabelas has both on sale.


----------



## hawgrider1200 (Mar 5, 2010)

They tell me the TC Omega Z5 is on sale at Walmart for like $200. They shoot really well and are Manufactured in America. In times like these our economy needs everone's help. Plus That fella that does the reveiws says they may not be "proof" shooting the CVA barrels. If I were buying one for my son today, I would not buy something that may or may not be safe for him to shoot.


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 5, 2010)

hawrider, TC does NOT proof their barrels. Only savage does.


----------



## shotgun12 (Mar 5, 2010)

I agree with flintrock. I have just bought a cva muzzleloader. It is a optima elite and this is my first muzzleloader and I love it. I ordered a 243 barrell for it so my son can start with it untill he gets ready for the muzzleloader.


----------



## Doyle (Mar 5, 2010)

+1 on the Omega Z5.  It is essentially the same rifle as the $400+ models only with a plain stock and a blued barrel.   I paid $200 at Walmart on clearance a little 2 years ago.


----------



## hawgrider1200 (Mar 5, 2010)

*U might wanna research that*



FrontierGander said:


> hawrider, TC does NOT proof their barrels. Only savage does.


I read one of the andy wakeman articles that said CVA proof marks barrels without really proofing them, he said it was required before a manufacturer sells a firearm in the USA. Attached is an article that addresses Pendersoli Proofmarks and an article that addrresses CVA blown up barrel lawsuits. I stand by my statement, If I was going to buy a firearm for my son or daughter I'd not buy a CVA!
http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul...li_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm
http://cvaguncases.com/Case___Information_Page.html

PS if I spent more time on the issue I'm sure I coud find an article that addresses proofmarks on TC muzzleloaders.


----------



## killitgrillit (Mar 5, 2010)

hawgrider1200 said:


> I read one of the andy wakeman articles that said CVA proof marks barrels without really proofing them, he said it was required before a manufacturer sells a firearm in the USA. Attached is an article that addresses Pendersoli Proofmarks and an article that addrresses CVA blown up barrel lawsuits. I stand by my statement, If I was going to buy a firearm for my son or daughter I'd not buy a CVA!
> http://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resul...li_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm
> http://cvaguncases.com/Case___Information_Page.html
> 
> PS if I spent more time on the issue I'm sure I coud find an article that addresses proofmarks on TC muzzleloaders.



I'am with ya. If someone was holding a gun to my head I wouldn't by a CVA


----------



## shotgun12 (Mar 5, 2010)

stick with what you think is best for you and your son.


----------



## hawgrider1200 (Mar 5, 2010)

Another article that addresses "proofing" Muzleloader barrels.
quoted from article by Randy Wakeman
Respectable companies, with manufacturing plants and significant assets in the United States such as Austin & Halleck, Knight Rifles, Thompson / Center Arms, and Savage Arms, build and TEST their guns to a much higher standard. Does that surprise anyone?

Savage Arms does the industry one better in the production of their Savage 10ML-II muzzleloader. Every single Savage 10ML-II is proof-tested to SAAMI center fire levels (MAP x 1.3) before it leaves their plant. It is not a mandatory SAAMI procedure, but Savage does it with all their centerfires-their muzzleloader is built to the same, very high, standards of quality as all their rifles, and each one undergoes personal factory testing under live fire before leaving the plant.

Lacking any muzzleloading standards or governing body, Austin & Halleck, Knight Rifles, Thompson / Center Arms, and Savage Arms have done their part to make muzzleloading a better place. and they deserve our support for that.


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 5, 2010)

randy wakeman works for savage. henry balls son was injured by a recall cva and since randy got with savage hes bashing them.

If they were dangerous why was randy reviewing cva rifles and SHOOTing them? Hmmmmm? Maybe because one pays more to bash another product.

TC / Knight do NOT  Proof their barrels.

CVA's barrels are made from high quality steel.

Anyone that takes what randy says to heart, Are sheep being lead around by false Info. 

I wonder how much randy makes off advertising for that Lawyer? 

Check this out before you side with that goon,
http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Alert.html

Toby Bridges now shoots Traditions. You think that he, who has had a savage ML blow up on him, would go to a poor quality product thats been bashed for blowing up? According to Randy both cva and traditions or any other spanish made rifles will blow up. He should stick to his bar room magic shows.


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 5, 2010)

Heres my CVA Accura i bought in May 2009. Its now pushing over 2,000 rounds through it. An Additional 3 to 500 rounds will be fired in it over a 3 month period.

150gr American Pioneer Super Stick, 245gr Powerbelt Aerotip, Winchester W209 primers @ 100 yards. 
3 Shot group measured .403" center to center.


----------



## Sloppy_Snood (Mar 6, 2010)

*White Rifles LLC - Still The Best of All!*

While I have NO qualms with CVA _since they made the move to using Begara barrels_, I highly suggest that you look at a White muzzleloader.  

These muzzleloaders are no longer made (as White Rifles LLC is out-of-business) but they remain the best for shooting heavy lead conical bullets.   Many new Whites are available periodically on the website of Gary "Doc" White (the creator of White Rifles).  Brand new and used....you can usually pick one up for $300-$400.  Take a look....


*LINK*:  White Rifles LLC Muzzleloaders (Click Here and Scroll Down)






These are "no disappointment" muzzleloaders.


----------



## hawgrider1200 (Mar 7, 2010)

*WHAT did you say?*



FrontierGander said:


> hawrider, TC does NOT proof their barrels. Only savage does.



My Encore muzzleloader barrel must be unique then, it has a proofmark in the same place as my centerfire Encore barrels.


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 7, 2010)

the proof marks may be there ( although i dont recall seeing any on my tc omega i had)  but they do not proof fire them.


----------



## hawgrider1200 (Mar 7, 2010)

*What?*



FrontierGander said:


> the proof marks may be there ( although i dont recall seeing any on my tc omega i had)  but they do not proof fire them.



U got any proof of that statement? How many lawsuits for exploded barrels has Thompson Center settled without going to trial?


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 7, 2010)

that we'll never know. TC seems pretty good at hiding those things. Over on Huntingnet there was a guy shooting a tc triump and his barrel cracked right along the BP. He was asking if it was still safe to shoot * Crazy!* and so we all told him no, send it in and get a story with what the heck happened. In the end, tc sent him a new rifle and some accessories. He was happier than a duck with 2 ponds to himself.  Muzzleloadingforum a member had a 223 encore barrel explode, He said he had was shooting and then on the next shot it kicked extremely hard and when he looked up the barrel had burst. He wasnt hurt.  TC again took charge and replaced it ASAP. He sold the rifle after he got the replacement. Hornady also had him send in what was left of his ammo, for inspection.

Trust me on this, EVERY rifle/pistol maker out there has had rifles go kaboom. Either from shooter error or from a product flaw. Heck, i had one of those 1851 confederate navy pistols from cabelas come apart in my hand due to poor quality. It was a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- to go searching for your barrel after each shot in that pistol!


----------



## NOYDB (Mar 7, 2010)

Flintrock said:


> Also,muzzleloders shoot different from one gun to another,but if you shoot the same kind of gun is more likely to favor the same primer/powder/bullet combinaion which means you only have to buy one kind for both and you can swap out stuff in the field when needed.



Flintrock is offering some good advice here. Compatibility between your two guns can be a hunt saver if someone forgets or drops something. It might stretch your budget a bit for the rifle if you can use accesories you already have on hand.


----------



## hawgrider1200 (Mar 8, 2010)

*Randy Wakeman*

Actually Randy Wakeman is an editor of one magazine and a writer for another magazine. He does not work for Savage Arms.


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 8, 2010)

lol if thats what you want to believe then thats your choice


----------



## Rick K. (Mar 10, 2010)

Buford_Dawg said:


> I am on a 300.00 budget for a new ML for my 13 year old son.  He has shot my CVA Optima PRO the last 3 years and harvested 4 deer with it.  I am ready to buy him his own ML and take back my Optima.  I am thinking of the new Optima with the easy breech, but does anyone have other suggestions.  I already have a scope, so all I need is the ML.



As a CVA owner I will say that if you have the opportunity to check other rifles out than I would do it but, for peace of mind I would stick with what works and you already know that answer.

My dad always said, "Why fix something that isn't broken" Stick with CVA. You could even try their new Apex and with a money back gaurantee if not completely satisfied with the accuracy, how can you go wrong with that.


----------



## yankee redneck (Mar 10, 2010)

*Wakemen*



hawgrider1200 said:


> Actually Randy Wakeman is an editor of one magazine and a writer for another magazine. He does not work for Savage Arms.



Just curious....what magazine in RW an editor?....and which one does he write for?


----------



## hunterb (Mar 28, 2010)

I picked up a CVA wolf 2-3 yrs ago to replace another cheaper ML and suprised to say that I have not been dissapointed with its accuracy.....pretty sure I didnt have $175 in it and with the break open action cleaning is a breeze...mind you I havent pulled the trigger on anything with it but the on range accuracy out to 125 yds has been suprising


----------



## FrontierGander (Mar 28, 2010)

yankee redneck said:


> Just curious....what magazine in RW an editor?....and which one does he write for?



hes an editor for www.chuckhawks.com  if you actually believe thats his only source of income.....


----------



## 1776Flintlock (Mar 28, 2010)

Whatecevr you decide consider a good scope to go with it.

Check out Leupold's Ultimate Slam vs. Nikon BDC.

I have the Leupold after researching both scopes.


----------



## fishndinty (Jun 11, 2010)

I am a big fan of my CVA wolf.  Got it in a kit, camo and nickel, for under 200$ OTD, and it routinely shoots 1.5 inch 100 yd groups with powerbelts or sabots of almost any kind.  Just a little load development is required and it is good to go.  And it LOVES the cheap shot all lead projectiles with a sabot.  

Anybody ever shot a deer with a cheap shot?  They look like they would do the job just fine.


----------

