# Free Will



## ddd-shooter (Jul 1, 2009)

Don't know if this has been brought up, but on another recent thread I see some wobbling on the issue. 

SO....................

Free Will-Do we have it or not?


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## Huntinfool (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes.


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## tell sackett (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes, but it does not overule the sovreignity of God. No matter what we do in our finite wisdom and will, He will use it to fulfill His purposes and no one here on this earth has the understanding to fully explain it.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 1, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Yes, but it does not overule the sovreignity of God. No matter what we do in our finite wisdom and will, He will use it to fulfill His purposes and no one here on this earth has the understanding to fully explain it.



Is it truly free will then?  If God's will and sovereignty is over it?


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## tell sackett (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes, and farther along HE'S going to explain it and we'll all say"oooh".  Like I said( maybe poorly), we can't fully understand the infinite wisdom of God.


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## Randy (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes.  Once you hear about God and His son you have free will to believe it or not.


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## earl (Jul 1, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Yes, but it does not overule the sovreignity of God. No matter what we do in our finite wisdom and will, He will use it to fulfill His purposes and no one here on this earth has the understanding to fully explain it.





If I am not mistaken ,that is the wobbling ddd saw. Like I said before,  either you have it or you don't. Free means no strings attached, no qualifiers needed. 
  Tell ,you sound like a car salesman. No down payment needed. And then in a quiet voice-- Just a small $10.000 fee to process your loan . 
  See what I mean ?


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## pnome (Jul 1, 2009)

Yep.


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## WTM45 (Jul 1, 2009)

Yes, totally.
No god is controlling the outcomes.  No god is predetermining the result.

With that comes complete responsibility for our actions.


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## tell sackett (Jul 1, 2009)

earl,as I' said twice, we don't have the capability in our human understanding to comprehend all that God does. We simply accept that what He does is good and right. Ro.11:33- O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out! Both free will and God's sovereign will are taught in the Bible. Do I fully understand it? No, but I accept both as the truth of God's word.


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

Shooter,

There have been many threads on the subject in the short time I've been here.

From what I can tell, there are 2 schools of thought represented by the Christians on this forum:  The Calvinists who believe in predestination and the others who don't believe in predestination.

Not being a believer myself, and using the strict definitions of Omnipotent and Omniscient, it seems to me that there could be no free will.  

If God knows, and indeed in control of and has complete knowledge of EVERYTHING that ever happens, every blade of grass that grows, every scale on a fish, every hair on your head, and has in fact known these things from the beginning of eternity,  then your fate has been determined.  

The strongest argument I have heard against this line of thinking has been:  He knows what you are going to do but you don't, which doesn't mean free will to me at all, but somehow people are able to interpret it that way.

Let me ask you this: In a story, for example, Star Wars,  (assuming that you have seen it before, which would make you omniscient of the the story) does Darth Vader have a choice whether or not he will go to the Dark Side?  From his perspective, he does. But since we are omniscient, from our perspective he doesn't.  He will go to the dark side every single time.  Its not his fault.  He was written that way.

Unless God is ever surprised, which he isn't, your fate is sealed.

Does my argument make sense logically?  If not, tell me where I falter.  The answer to this is usually:  I'm using the logic of this world to explain a God who doesn't have play by our rules.  If that's good enough for you, then Via Con Dios, partner.


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> earl,as I' said twice, we don't have the capability in our human understanding to comprehend all that God does. We simply accept that what He does is good and right. Ro.11:33- O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgements, and his ways past finding out! Both free will and God's sovereign will are taught in the Bible. Do I fully understand it? No, but I accept both as the truth of God's word.




Dang!  Sackett beat me to it!!!  I hadn't even finished my thought.

Why, then, even attempt to determine what his will is if he doesn't have to play by the rules?  You've got no chance to figure out his angle.  Its like playing hide and seek with someone who can turn invisible.


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## Dominic (Jul 1, 2009)

St. Thomas Aquinas

Summa Theologica

Question 83. Free-will

Article 1. Whether man has free-will?




> I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain. In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment; as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct. And the same thing is to be said of any judgment of brute animals. But man acts from judgment, because by his apprehensive power he judges that something should be avoided or sought. But because this judgment, in the case of some particular act, is not from a natural instinct, but from some act of comparison in the reason, therefore he acts from free judgment and retains the power of being inclined to various things. For reason in contingent matters may follow opposite courses, as we see in dialectic syllogisms and rhetorical arguments. Now particular operations are contingent, and therefore in such matters the judgment of reason may follow opposite courses, and is not determinate to one. And forasmuch as man is rational is it necessary that man have a free-will.



http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1083.htm


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

"I answer that, Man has free-will: otherwise counsels, exhortations, commands, prohibitions, rewards, and punishments would be in vain."

That is absolutely NOT the only logical conclusion to make.


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## tell sackett (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Shooter,
> 
> There have been many threads on the subject in the short time I've been here.
> 
> ...


Ambush,I have to disagree with your second paragraph,it's not that some of us don't believe in predestination;we all believe it, we just disagree on the interpretation of it. As to your star wars argument I see two problems. One, a manmade fantasy can't be compared to the word of God. Two, we didn't know what darth would do until we saw it the first time.                           b.t.w. " road with God"? don't worry, I'm sure you'll get many opportunities for payback


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

tell sackett said:


> Ambush,I have to disagree with your second paragraph,it's not that some of us don't believe in predestination;we all believe it, we just disagree on the interpretation of it. As to your star wars argument I see two problems. One, a manmade fantasy can't be compared to the word of God. Two, we didn't know what darth would do until we saw it the first time.                           b.t.w. " road with God"? don't worry, I'm sure you'll get many opportunities for payback



You should search predestination on here.  There are many who don't believe in it.

Star Wars is an analogy to the "Book of Life"  which I hear about sometimes from Christians.  Contained within is all the events in eternity.  If there's not a hard copy, I imagine God keeps it all in his head.  If you hadn't seen the movie yet, then you aren't omniscient of the story.  God is omniscient.

Vaya.  I took French.  Still, a good reason to throw out the entirety of my post.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 1, 2009)

Dominic said:


> St. Thomas Aquinas
> 
> Summa Theologica
> 
> ...





Welcome back Dominic.  It's been awhile since you've gotten in the sandbox


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 1, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Welcome back Dominic.  It's been awhile since you've gotten in the sandbox



X's 2, Good to see you back Brother.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> If God knows, and indeed in control of and has complete knowledge of EVERYTHING that ever happens, every blade of grass that grows, every scale on a fish, every hair on your head, and has in fact known these things from the beginning of eternity,  then your fate has been determined.



My response to this is that simply because God knows everything, does not mean He forces you to do His will. He knew the beginning from the end, so, with that in mind, He was able to create a plan for your life knowing how you would either embrace Him or turn from Him. Sure, He would know that Darth would go to the darkside, but if that was not what He hoped for him, He might place many people there to try to influence him to the side of the Jedi, even though He knows it will be futile. Ultimately, God will give Darth the opportunities to come over, but Darth rejects God and does it his way, "The Dark Side." Thus, we have a fallen world we live in now. If God's will was done, and He was any God I would serve, the world would be a much better place. But, we imperfect humans often mess up, especially in the Christian camp. 




WTM45 said:


> Yes, totally.
> No god is controlling the outcomes.  No god is predetermining the result.
> 
> With that comes complete responsibility for our actions.



How do you rectify this with the current scientific viewpoint, which says there is no rhyme or reason to anything and therefore, we are just biological machines reacting to stimuli we encounter in our lives? We are just the sum  of our experiences, instincts and evolutionary mechanisms and thus we have no "will" at all.


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## WTM45 (Jul 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> How do you rectify this with the current scientific viewpoint, which says there is no rhyme or reason to anything and therefore, we are just biological machines reacting to stimuli we encounter in our lives? We are just the sum  of our experiences, instincts and evolutionary mechanisms and thus we have no "will" at all.




Most equate "free will" with freedom of choice and action.  I do as well.
You can choose how to act and react.  With those actions and reactions comes results.  Totally independant and free.
In the bigger picture, I can agree there is "no rhyme or reason" to what some people do.  The evidence for that is clear.
But each human has the ability to act based on their individual will, according to their ability to act.  Suicide inclusive.


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## footjunior (Jul 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Don't know if this has been brought up, but on another recent thread I see some wobbling on the issue.
> 
> SO....................
> 
> Free Will-Do we have it or not?



No.

Great question.

Here's a question for you:

How do you define free will?


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 1, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Most equate "free will" with freedom of choice and action.  I do as well.
> You can choose how to act and react.  With those actions and reactions comes results.  Totally independant and free.
> In the bigger picture, I can agree there is "no rhyme or reason" to what some people do.  The evidence for that is clear.
> But each human has the ability to act based on their individual will, according to their ability to act.  Suicide inclusive.



Honest questions here (and rather deep too)
What part of the human body controls this freedom of choice? How are we different from animals, which most scientists suggest simply act upon instinct and often do not consider their actions? I suppose my question is, What makes us consider our actions?  



footjunior said:


> No.
> 
> Great question.
> 
> ...



See post 19.


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> My response to this is that simply because God knows everything, does not mean He forces you to do His will. He knew the beginning from the end, so, with that in mind, He was able to create a plan for your life knowing how you would either embrace Him or turn from Him. Sure, He would know that Darth would go to the darkside, but if that was not what He hoped for him, He might place many people there to try to influence him to the side of the Jedi, even though He knows it will be futile. Ultimately, God will give Darth the opportunities to come over, but Darth rejects God and does it his way, "The Dark Side." Thus, we have a fallen world we live in now. If God's will was done, and He was any God I would serve, the world would be a much better place. But, we imperfect humans often mess up, especially in the Christian camp.



Lets go through this step by step, shall we?

1.) " He was able to create a plan for your life knowing how you would either embrace Him or turn from Him." 
This comes with the title of God

2.)  "He would know that Darth would go to the darkside,"
Because he is omniscient. Yes, I follow so far.

3.)  "but [sic] that was not what He hoped for him"
Refer to point #1and 2

4.) "God will give Darth the opportunities to come over,"
Again, refer to #1and 2

5.) "If God's will was done..."
(1 and 2, again)

6.) " But, we imperfect humans often mess up,"
(1&2)

Explain it to me again, please.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 1, 2009)

Perhaps I am slow, but you need to elaborate where you do not follow. I think I know, but I would rather not assume things? Is it God not forcing Darth? Is it Darth's not following the plan? I am sorry. 

PS. It sounds silly to have this debate with a Sci-fi character; but, funny nonetheless.


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## tell sackett (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> You should search predestination on here.  There are many who don't believe in it.
> 
> Star Wars is an analogy to the "Book of Life"  which I hear about sometimes from Christians.  Contained within is all the events in eternity.  If there's not a hard copy, I imagine God keeps it all in his head.  If you hadn't seen the movie yet, then you aren't omniscient of the story.  God is omniscient.
> 
> Vaya.  I took French.  Still, a good reason to throw out the entirety of my post.


Ambush,I did read a good many of the threads about predestination while I was lurking, but not all. All I can say on that is if somebody denies it, they must have one of them ol' Jeffersonian bibles.I'll have to disagree with you about S.W. being an analogy of the bible, you know them heathens in Hollywierd don't believe in God or the bible . No the bible doesn't contain all the events of eternity, but yes, God does know all of them. Lastly, He didn't have to see the movie(so to speak) to know what Darth would do because He's omniscient,we're not so we had to buy a ticket, that's the difference( but it shore was good to see ol' Darth get saved in the end though, wasn't it? ; sorry,I couldn't resist.)


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## footjunior (Jul 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> See post 19.



I don't see anything in post #19 which defines free will. I guess I fail at comprehension.


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## Thanatos (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Let me ask you this: In a story, for example, Star Wars,  (assuming that you have seen it before, which would make you omniscient of the the story) does Darth Vader have a choice whether or not he will go to the Dark Side?  From his perspective, he does. But since we are omniscient, from our perspective he doesn't.  He will go to the dark side every single time.  Its not his fault.  He was written that way.



What if there is  multiverse? Then there are multiple outcomes.


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

Thanatos said:


> What if there is  multiverse? Then there are multiple outcomes.



But he still knows which path you took in each one.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> But he still knows which path you took in each one.



ambush80, you know my thoughts on this so I won't bore you with repeating myself!


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Perhaps I am slow, but you need to elaborate where you do not follow. I think I know, but I would rather not assume things? Is it God not forcing Darth? Is it Darth's not following the plan? I am sorry.
> 
> PS. It sounds silly to have this debate with a Sci-fi character; but, funny nonetheless.




Replace "Darth Vader" with Ambush80.

If God knew what I was going to have for breakfast before I had it,  did I REALLY have an option or was I going to follow the "script" to the letter?


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> ambush80, you know my thoughts on this so I won't bore you with repeating myself!



I don't think I do, honestly.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Replace "Darth Vader" with Ambush80.
> 
> If God knew what I was going to have for breakfast before I had it,  did I REALLY have an option or was I going to follow the "script" to the letter?



Here's a poor example: I know that if I put a pickle and a dog biscuit on the floor in front of Jake(my labrador), he's going to choose the biscuit every time. I know he'll choose the biscuit, but I didn't make him choose the biscuit.

Have I conditioned him to choose the biscuit? Hardly, he's had opportunities to eat just about everything that has passed through the doors of this house. He just uses his free will.


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Here's a poor example: I know that if I put a pickle and a dog biscuit on the floor in front of Jake(my labrador), he's going to choose the biscuit every time. I know he'll choose the biscuit, but I didn't make him choose the biscuit.
> 
> Have I conditioned him to choose the biscuit? Hardly, he's had opportunities to eat just about everything that has passed through the doors of this house. He just uses his free will.



You are not omniscient or omnipotent.  You just have a very good guess about what he will do.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> You are not omniscient or omnipotent.  You just have a very good guess about what he will do.



Well, it's the best example I've got! Everything else in the house(my wife and the cats) are all smarter and more omnipotent than me!

They probably all sit around and predict what I'll do next!


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## Ronnie T (Jul 1, 2009)

I hope I don't confuse anyone with my answer to the question.

Does a Christian have free will?      Yes and No.

Yes!  God has allowed us decide for ourselves.  We have free-will to bath everyday or only once a week.  Free-will to eat lunch or not eat lunch.  Free-will to remain faithful or not be faithful.

No!  As people who have been redeemed by blood of Jesus and having put on Christ we should have given up our free-will in favor or Christ's will.
"It is no longer I who live but Christ who lives within me".  I should no longer seek my free-will.  I've replaced it with Christ's.


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Well, it's the best example I've got! Everything else in the house(my wife and the cats) are all smarter and more omnipotent than me!
> 
> They probably all sit around and predict what I'll do next!




No worries. I've seen the same example using a kid offered broccoli or ice cream.  It's not the same for the same reason.  Furthermore, a kid might choose the broccoli just to contrary.  I did that kind of stuff.  Then you would be surprised.  God is never surprised.


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## The Original Rooster (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> No worries. I've seen the same example using a kid offered broccoli or ice cream.  It's not the same for the same reason.  Furthermore, a kid might choose the broccoli just to contrary.  I did that kind of stuff.  Then you would be surprised.  God is never surprised.



Yep, God is mysterious. Like somebody posted earlier, his ways are not our ways and those ways are beyond our understanding. Still, fun to talk about it!


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I hope I don't confuse anyone with my answer to the question.
> 
> Does a Christian have free will?      Yes and No.
> 
> ...


 

Does he know when you are gonna bathe?  Every single time?


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## ambush80 (Jul 1, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Yep, God is mysterious. Like somebody posted earlier, his ways are not our ways and those ways are beyond our understanding. Still, fun to talk about it!



That's the impass.  This is where it always ends.  Makes me sad cause there's no where else to take it.

Ever consider the notion that he just finds it amusing;  Watching the ants struggle ?


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Replace "Darth Vader" with Ambush80.
> 
> If God knew what I was going to have for breakfast before I had it,  did I REALLY have an option or was I going to follow the "script" to the letter?



I think you are confusing the omniscent with the omnipotent. Just because He has foreknowledge of knowing what you ate by knowing the end from the beginning does not mean He forced you to eat it. Foreknowledge is not manipulation. I know gravity exists and therefore when I drop a bowling ball off a building, I KNOW it will fall(within reason of course, grant me that here). Now, just because I knew it was going to fall does not mean I forced it to. 
Or this way, God is infinite and all times at all places. So, knowing the end of Star Wars before it begins allows Him to know what Darth is going to do. Not force him to do it. Then He can better prepare the Jedi for the attack...make sense or are we at an impase with our beliefs?


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## ambush80 (Jul 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think you are confusing the omniscent with the omnipotent. Just because He has foreknowledge of knowing what you ate by knowing the end from the beginning does not mean He forced you to eat it. Foreknowledge is not manipulation. I know gravity exists and therefore when I drop a bowling ball off a building, I KNOW it will fall(within reason of course, grant me that here). Now, just because I knew it was going to fall does not mean I forced it to.
> Or this way, God is infinite and all times at all places. So, knowing the end of Star Wars before it begins allows Him to know what Darth is going to do. Not force him to do it. Then He can better prepare the Jedi for the attack...make sense or are we at an impase with our beliefs?



I can concede that He didn't necessarily make me eat a banana for breakfast.  I maintain that I had no other option.


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I can concede that He didn't necessarily make me eat a banana for breakfast.  I maintain that I had no other option.



Why? Was there nothing else in the kitchen? Couldn't you have just as easily eaten a blueberry muffin?


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## Thanatos (Jul 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think you are confusing the omniscent with the omnipotent. Just because He has foreknowledge of knowing what you ate by knowing the end from the beginning does not mean He forced you to eat it. Foreknowledge is not manipulation. I know gravity exists and therefore when I drop a bowling ball off a building, I KNOW it will fall(within reason of course, grant me that here). Now, just because I knew it was going to fall does not mean I forced it to.
> Or this way, God is infinite and all times at all places. So, knowing the end of Star Wars before it begins allows Him to know what Darth is going to do. Not force him to do it. Then He can better prepare the Jedi for the attack...make sense or are we at an impase with our beliefs?



Bingo!


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 2, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I hope I don't confuse anyone with my answer to the question.
> 
> Does a Christian have free will?      Yes and No.
> 
> ...





Great Thoughts Ronnie T.


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## ambush80 (Jul 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Why? Was there nothing else in the kitchen? Couldn't you have just as easily eaten a blueberry muffin?



Does it matter how many choices there were.  If he knew i was gonna eat the banana, then I was gonna eat the banana.


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## nhancedsvt (Jul 2, 2009)

I got kicked out of Sunday School class several times as a kid for bringing up questions like this. My thing was, if we are free to make our own choices but God being omnipotent knows what choices we will make, do we really have a choice at all? I mean it's not like we're going to catch God of guard. I still don't know the answer to that question, but I pray that the choices that I will make are that of the Lord's will (whether they are chosen for me or not).


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## addictedtodeer (Jul 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Don't know if this has been brought up, but on another recent thread I see some wobbling on the issue.
> 
> SO....................
> 
> Free Will-Do we have it or not?



First I think we have to define what is Free Will according to Theology.
_By free choice in this place we mean a power of the human will by which a man can apply himself to the things which lead to eternal salvation, or turn away from them._- Erasmus (pro Free Will)


From a Christian perspective there are 3 great articles to read:

Canons of the Council of Orange (529AD)
AS you can see this debate has been going on a long time, we just keep on bringing it up.

Erasmus The Freedom of the Will vs. Luther The Bondage of the Will
Both excellent scholars.
I've linked to a decent article that sums up both arguments. Yes it is pro Luther, but it introduces you to their arguments before you decide to read their books.

We need to read scripture and those who have come before us or else we will just keep debating the same stuff.


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## WTM45 (Jul 2, 2009)

addictedtodeer said:


> We need to read scripture and those who have come before us or else we will just keep debating the same stuff.




You do realize the scripture you read today is a direct result of men deciding what you will be able to read?

More than one council made those determinations, adding to existing works, deleting some works and outright destroying what they wanted to prevent others from teaching/learning.


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## Thanatos (Jul 2, 2009)

The real question is..."Does knowing the answer to this question affect your salvation?"


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## ddd-shooter (Jul 2, 2009)

Thanatos said:


> The real question is..."Does knowing the answer to this question affect your salvation?"



Of course not, however, expanding your mind and learning how others think is important in MY walk with Christ.


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## tell sackett (Jul 2, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> You do realize the scripture you read today is a direct result of men deciding what you will be able to read?
> 
> More than one council made those determinations, adding to existing works, deleting some works and outright destroying what they wanted to prevent others from teaching/learning.


 sigh


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## ambush80 (Jul 2, 2009)

nhancedsvt said:


> I got kicked out of Sunday School class several times as a kid for bringing up questions like this. My thing was, if we are free to make our own choices but God being omnipotent knows what choices we will make, do we really have a choice at all? I mean it's not like we're going to catch God of guard. I still don't know the answer to that question, but I pray that the choices that I will make are that of the Lord's will (whether they are chosen for me or not).



That's my thinking.  It's clearly a logical position.  As a believer, I think that the only way that you will be able to reconcile what you understand logically with what you understand spiritually is: 1.)  Your fate is predetermined or  2.)  God is playing by some mysterious rule that defies logic.

It's my observation, of protestants particularly, that you will have to be content with answer #2.  I couldn't accept that personally, but, then again, I don't have to.



ddd-shooter said:


> Of course not, however, expanding your mind and learning how others think is important in MY walk with Christ.



It only matters if you would feel more comfortable if God played by the rules of logic.  I've heard it said on here that "God is not the agent of confusion".  Indeed, this quandary is confusing; unless you can accept that God doesn't have to play by the rules.  That notion leaves me unsatisfied, but I'm using Earthly logic alone.


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## Thanatos (Jul 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Of course not, however, expanding your mind and learning how others think is important in MY walk with Christ.



I agree 110% with you. Some people get hung up on this kind of topics and loose their faith.


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