# History of Christianity



## 1gr8bldr (Jul 15, 2012)

I found this very interesting, but very long, had to take a few breaks from it. Also fell asleep during it. But I will go back through it again. It is to long for one sitting. Have not seen part 2. Will save that for later. I found most of it to line up with my beliefs. Would make for some interesting discussion.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/watch/


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 15, 2012)

My initial picture I had in my mind was much poorer, less advanced. But after having watched, I remember cues from the bible that made me realize that this portrayed is more correct than my initial thoughts


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 15, 2012)

The portion that describes crucifiction, made me realize something. Not surprised. The reason you die in crucifiction is suffication. After you hang there for so long, fighting to support your body weight so that you can breath. As you get tired and exausted, you hang lower and lower until your air passage gets cut off. The so called 7 last sayings of Jesus are  put in his mouth by the writers of the NT. He likely said nothing. He would have had no ability to speak at this time. If he had of, it would have been so low that no one could hear him. Like a whisper. Their is no way "he cried out in a loud voice, My God my God, why have you forsaken me", much less all the other things that the different NT writers claimed he said.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> The portion that describes crucifiction, made me realize something. Not surprised. The reason you die in crucifiction is suffication. After you hang there for so long, fighting to support your body weight so that you can breath. As you get tired and exausted, you hang lower and lower until your air passage gets cut off. The so called 7 last sayings of Jesus are  put in his mouth by the writers of the NT. He likely said nothing. He would have had no ability to speak at this time. If he had of, it would have been so low that no one could hear him. Like a whisper. Their is no way "he cried out in a loud voice, My God my God, why have you forsaken me", much less all the other things that the different NT writers claimed he said.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 15, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


>


Hold your breath for 60 seconds and then cry out the supposed statement. I just tried it at 30 seconds and could not speak a word. Now imagine you are at the point of death because you are sufficating after hanging for hours. You might be able to do this early on, but at the point of suffication, no way. It just goes to show that the NT writers are putting words in Jesus's mouth.


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## ambush80 (Jul 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hold your breath for 60 seconds and then cry out the supposed statement. I just tried it at 30 seconds and could not speak a word. Now imagine you are at the point of death because you are sufficating after hanging for hours. You might be able to do this early on, but at the point of suffication, no way. It just goes to show that the NT writers are putting words in Jesus's mouth.




He's a superhero.  Do you think he needs air to talk?  He can walk on water.


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## coonkilla (Jul 15, 2012)

He raised a man from the dead,he walked on water,he died on an old rugged tree and three days later arose up,now u say u tried one thing and could not do it,it's because u aint 
jesus


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2012)

coonkilla said:


> He raised a man from the dead,he walked on water,he died on an old rugged tree and three days later arose up,now u say u tried one thing and could not do it,it's because u aint
> jesus



So someone was resurrected before Jesus......THAT would have to be big news "back in the day" huh? What did all those historians have to say about that? He must have been booked solid doing interviews for years.


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## coonkilla (Jul 15, 2012)

He is,and when I leave this world I will meet him face to face and live with him forever and those who have mocked him will burn for ever some were I else,so put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!!!!!


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## jmharris23 (Jul 15, 2012)

Threads like this go nowhere......that being said y'all be nice. Both sides think the other side is wrong. But no need tostart insulting one another.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 15, 2012)

Why post this in here?


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## bullethead (Jul 15, 2012)

coonkilla said:


> He is,and when I leave this world I will meet him face to face and live with him forever and those who have mocked him will burn for ever some were I else,so put that in your pipe and smoke it!!!!!!!!



I was talking about the guy Jesus brought back from the dead. Are you defending him now too?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 15, 2012)

coonkilla said:


> He raised a man from the dead,he walked on water,he died on an old rugged tree and three days later arose up,now u say u tried one thing and could not do it,it's because u aint
> jesus



When Jesus was on the cross he was a man. He gave up his divine nature. I don't know what he said or didn't say but he was acting as a man. This was the only way it happened to make it work. I am sure story tellers of that period (or any period) smeared peanut butter on their stories.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 15, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Why post this in here?



Because this is the place where unbelievers post!


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## Ronnie T (Jul 15, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hold your breath for 60 seconds and then cry out the supposed statement. I just tried it at 30 seconds and could not speak a word. Now imagine you are at the point of death because you are sufficating after hanging for hours. You might be able to do this early on, but at the point of suffication, no way. It just goes to show that the NT writers are putting words in Jesus's mouth.



I'm amazed that a person will believe what a present day person says concerning what occurred 2000 years ago, rather than believing what was said about the event as the event took place.
Perspective I guess.
How can you possibly believe any of it?

End.


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## vowell462 (Jul 16, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm amazed that a person will believe what a present day person says concerning what occurred 2000 years ago, rather than believing what was said about the event as the event took place.
> Perspective I guess.
> How can you possibly believe any of it?
> 
> End.



One reason is because what was being said about what was taking place 2000 years ago, wasnt being told then either. It was years after the supposed happening before the stories were written and were not written when the event took place.


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## bullethead (Jul 16, 2012)

vowell462 said:


> One reason is because what was being said about what was taking place 2000 years ago, wasnt being told then either. It was years after the supposed happening before the stories were written and were not written when the event took place.



Nor were they written by anyone who heard what was actually said,witnessed the events first hand, or ever actually met Jesus.
It really IS hard to believe any of it.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Nor were they written by anyone who heard what was actually said,witnessed the events first hand, or ever actually met Jesus.
> It really IS hard to believe any of it.


Seems like ol' John knew Jesus......

_"1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have *seen with our eyes*, which we have *looked at and our hands have touched *—this we proclaim concerning the Word of life. 2 The life appeared; we have *seen it *and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and *has appeared to us*. 3 We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. 4 We write this to make our[a] joy complete."_


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 16, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> Because this is the place where unbelievers post!



Christian Apologetics also post in this forum. I don't know why Apologetics is a part of the forum. But then I don't know why Christianity & Judaism are together without Islamic. They all worship the God of Abraham.


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## gemcgrew (Jul 16, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Christian Apologetics also post in this forum. I don't know why Apologetics is a part of the forum. But then I don't know why Christianity & Judaism are together without Islamic. They all worship the God of Abraham.



I think you missed his pointed post.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 16, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't know why Apologetics is a part of the forum.



Without it, there would be about twelve threads and thirty-seven posts in this forum.




Artfuldodger said:


> But then I don't know why Christianity & Judaism are together without Islamic.



Probably because there are no Muslims on the site.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

Why post here? Because apologetics are not for everyone. You need firm convictions before stepping into the world of apologetics. My hope is that those new to the faith don't venture over here and stay at the Christian sub forum. Many of the issues that I ponder would not have been good for me to deal with 20 years ago. I fear that some would assume that if the bible was not inspired then by default, that nothing was true. I do not wish for that. On the other hand, as they stumble across these issues in their own personal studies, I wish for all to see that it is possible to believe in the central theme within the scriptures. I think everyone knows that Jesus did not have 7 different last statements as the 4 gospels say. It is obvious that someone has put words in Jesus mouth. So, many pretend it ain't so, but deep down they know what I am saying is true to some degree. But no one wants to deal with it and resents that it is pointed out. It is just verification that the writers recorded the oral tradition. It is possible that John's is actually John, and also first hand account. But the point is that no one was intentionally trying to deceive anyone, it was merely that the oral had distorted things slightly by the time it was penned.


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## stringmusic (Jul 16, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why post here? Because apologetics are not for everyone. You need firm convictions before stepping into the world of apologetics. My hope is that those new to the faith don't venture over here and stay at the Christian sub forum. Many of the issues that I ponder would not have been good for me to deal with 20 years ago. I fear that some would assume that if the bible was not inspired then by default, that nothing was true. I do not wish for that. On the other hand, as they stumble across these issues in their own personal studies, I wish for all to see that it is possible to believe in the central theme within the scriptures. *I think everyone knows that Jesus did not have 7 different last statements as the 4 gospels say. It is obvious that someone has put words in Jesus mouth.* So, many pretend it ain't so, but deep down they know what I am saying is true to some degree. But no one wants to deal with it and resents that it is pointed out. It is just verification that the writers recorded the oral tradition. It is possible that John's is actually John, and also first hand account. But the point is that no one was intentionally trying to deceive anyone, it was merely that the oral had distorted things slightly by the time it was penned.



I don't know that.

I think he could have lifted Himself up to make an airway to speak. Do you think that is a possibility?


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know that.
> 
> I think he could have lifted Himself up to make an airway to speak. Do you think that is a possibility?


Yes that is possible, and the fact that he died much sooner could mean that he "gave up his Spirit" while he still had plenty of strength to speak whatever he wished. And I should concede that "my God my God, why have you forsaken me" and "Father, into your hands I commit my Spirit" sound contridictory yet under the circumstances, could be true.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

I concede that after having looked back over the text, I assumed wrong about the so called seven last sayings. They are not all at his last breath. 

Father forgive them, for they know not what they do (Luke 23:34).
Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (John 19:26-27).
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me, (Matthew 27:46 and Mark 15:34).
I thirst (John 19:28).
It is finished (John 19:30).
Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (Luke 23:46).

Upon further consideration, two of these are his final breath, the others could have been early on.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 16, 2012)

To clarify what I consider contridictory is the confidence of "today you will be with me in paradise" contrasted with the cry of "my God my God, why have you forsaken me. But this is actually a different  subject than the OP. The OP, due to bouncing these thoughts around with you guys made me realize I don't have a reasonable case


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 16, 2012)

gemcgrew said:


> I think you missed his pointed post.



Then I hope he was joking.


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## ambush80 (Jul 17, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> I don't know that.
> 
> I think he could have lifted Himself up to make an airway to speak. Do you think that is a possibility?



This right here is what Apologetics all boils down to.  

Most people here are rational.  They rely on reason and logic to deal with almost every aspect of their lives.  What is critical to understand here, is that the "intellectual" loopdy-loops that must be performed to make a donkey talk are the same ones that must be performed to make a dying Jesus talk.  How can this be considered remotely 'simple' or 'elegant'?


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## atlashunter (Jul 20, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Why post here? Because apologetics are not for everyone. You need firm convictions before stepping into the world of apologetics. My hope is that those new to the faith don't venture over here and stay at the Christian sub forum. Many of the issues that I ponder would not have been good for me to deal with 20 years ago. I fear that some would assume that if the bible was not inspired then by default, that nothing was true. I do not wish for that. On the other hand, as they stumble across these issues in their own personal studies, I wish for all to see that it is possible to believe in the central theme within the scriptures.



No doubt this is largely the reason this separate forum was created. Don't want the flock being confronted with difficult questions. Better that they stay over in the self affirming nursery for about 20 years until they are too invested in these beliefs to consider changing them in light of tough questions.


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## TheBishop (Jul 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> No doubt this is largely the reason this separate forum was created. Don't want the flock being confronted with difficult questions. Better that they stay over in the self affirming nursery for about 20 years until they are too invested in these beliefs to consider changing them in light of tough questions.



Man you were on fire last night!  We all know how some can't stand those questions.


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## JB0704 (Jul 21, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Man you were on fire last night!  We all know how some can't stand those questions.



Some of us enjoy the discussion.  You guys are alright.....what good is a faith I can't defend.


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## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Some of us enjoy the discussion.  You guys are alright.....what good is a faith I can't defend.


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## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2012)

Thanks to the OP for sharing this. Watched part 1 and a bit of part 2. Enjoying it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> Thanks to the OP for sharing this. Watched part 1 and a bit of part 2. Enjoying it.


I have not found time for part 2 yet. I wish they had explained why Jesus was killed. Most don't realize that Caesar considered himself a god. And that Jesus claiming  Daniel 7 meant that he was claiming rulership. He was accused as one starting a revolt against Rome. This is what they handed him over for. It was all they could come up with. They suddenly got loyal to Caesar. LOL. They said, "if you let this man go then you are no friend to Caesar' and "anyone who claims to be a King opposes Caesar" and "we have no King but Caesar" John 19: 13-16. Jesus had blasphemed Caesar, not God


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## centerpin fan (Jul 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> No doubt this is largely the reason this separate forum was created.  Don't want the flock being confronted with difficult questions.



"The flock" spends a lot of time in this forum dealing with whatever questions get tossed out.  Without "the flock", this forum would be as dead as Julius Caesar.


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## ASVP Viking (Jul 21, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> "The flock" spends a lot of time in this forum dealing with whatever questions get tossed out.  Without "the flock", this forum would be as dead as Julius Caesar.



And without THIS "flock" you'd still be burning witches with a life expectancy of about 35.


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## centerpin fan (Jul 21, 2012)

ASVP Viking said:


> And without THIS "flock" you'd still be burning witches with a life expectancy of about 35.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 21, 2012)

TheBishop said:


> Man you were on fire last night!  We all know how some can't stand those questions.



P l e a s e !!!


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## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> P l e a s e !!!



I've seen you respond to protect "the flock" from challenges to the divinity of the new testament on the other forum with an ad hominem that got the thread deleted. You know what I'm referring to. I understand why a separate kitchen was designated for those who can take the heat. Even when I was a believer I was never afraid of the tough questions. The way I saw it only lies must be defended against scrutiny.


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## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> "The flock" spends a lot of time in this forum dealing with whatever questions get tossed out.  Without "the flock", this forum would be as dead as Julius Caesar.



Some spend a lot of time here and I appreciate those who do. Those who don't have the luxury of not having their beliefs questioned.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 21, 2012)

atlashunter said:


> I've seen you respond to protect "the flock" from challenges to the divinity of the new testament on the other forum with an ad hominem that got the thread deleted. You know what I'm referring to. I understand why a separate kitchen was designated for those who can take the heat. Even when I was a believer I was never afraid of the tough questions. The way I saw it only lies must be defended against scrutiny.



Why would any Christian even comtemplate lying about anything of God or Christ??
Christians might have differing beliefs, and obviously they will.  But I don't believe any Christian would lie in order to protect their belief.  To do that would destroy their belief system.

You also mention scrutiny.  I don't mind your scrutiny.  But I'm not impressed by it either.

Most mature Christians welcome the opportunity to defend faith against those do not believe.  But there's a problem.  There are very few things a believer can say to you that will will create a 'lightbulb' moment in life for you.  We all know that you aren't here to get our point of view or to pick our brains.
You're a card-carrying, certified atheist.  You went to night school to study it.
You aren't here to get information and discuss issues.  You're here to help us Christians become better Bible studiers.  But you're going to disagree with everything we say.
We don't walk away from discussions because the questions 'got to us'.  We leave the discussion when it becomes    or    .

Just got better things to do.
We're glad you're here.  It's good to have discussing like the ones that occur here.  But when we run into that brick wall we often go find something more productive to do.

Enjoy.


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## atlashunter (Jul 21, 2012)

Perhaps falsehood is a better term than lie. The point was an untruth rather than an intentional deception although I'm sure that applies at times too. You may think the resident theists welcome tough questions but it just aint so, at least not in the forum frequented by most of them.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 22, 2012)

I think, therefor I am.  I heard this when I was a kid and thought it strange that a philosopher had to come up with a way to prove they really existed.If man has a hard time realizing He exists how could he ever have an easy time understanding that God exists?

The moment I was saved I became two men, there is the outer worldly me, its the sinful carnal thinking me, but then there is the inward man that is perfect and without sin, the eternal part that will not die.
 God is such a part of our lives and so intertwined with what we do that no one can convince us otherwise. He was with me when I lost control of my car once, he was with me when I asked for a wife, and he sent me a perfect mate.He has been with me comforting me through the deaths of loved ones,He has been with me everytime I've needed Him.
 Paul said it best, and this goes to the ones that truly believe and don't just accept there could be a God, this is for the born again Christians that have recieved the dwelling of Christ.
Romans 8:35
 Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ? tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to seperate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul knew what he was talking about for he had persecuted the church when he was another man Saul.There are no ex believers, only ex non believers, for the love of Christ cannot be seperated from the true believer, so try as you may, you cannot convert a true born again christian anymore than you can turn a frog into a bird or a cow into a mouse.
 God Bless.


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