# Jews & Gentiles differences New Covenant?



## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2012)

Well i guess it comes down to if Jews have a choice to stay under the Old Covenant, choose the New Covenant that also includes Gentiles, or do they have a completely different covenant all together? Didn't the Holy Spirit fall on only Jews at the Pentecost and Gentiles 7-10 years later? I'm just showing a difference.

We have a lot of discussions on here where someone will say, "Jesus was speaking to Jews in that verse" or "Paul was preaching to Gentiles."


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## mtnwoman (Dec 19, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well i guess it comes down to if Jews have a choice to stay under the Old Covenant, choose the New Covenant that also includes Gentiles, or do they have a completely different covenant all together? Didn't the Holy Spirit fall on only Jews at the Pentecost and Gentiles 7-10 years later? I'm just showing a difference.
> 
> We have a lot of discussions on here where someone will say, "Jesus was speaking to Jews in that verse" or "Paul was preaching to Gentiles."



This probably isn't an answer.  I believe that the Jews were temporarily blinded by God, to graft usn's (the gentiles) in.  I've never had a question about who/when the HS fell on who. I guess I assumed it fell on the messianic Jews at the time, followed by sheep/gentiles.

Bible study is the only way I've found to help me understand who Jesus was talking to, when/where etc. And of course I still only get a tidbit of it. It just keeps  getting deeper and deeper to me. Once I get one answer and I dwell on that a while, then I discover something more.
Like the kids bible story of david and goliath and it's depth, that took me years to understand, especially since i'm older and I have a lot of giants standing before me, trying to kill me off or take my joy, etc etc.

I think Jesus used a lot of things from the OT that His Jewish following could relate to, to help them with usn's. I like studying the OT more now because I can see what Jesus is pointing to.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 19, 2012)

mtnwoman said:


> I like studying the OT more now because I can see what Jesus is pointing to.


Same here. Christ is throughout the OT and I know I've only scratched the surface.

One thing to remember about the OT Jews was that they were still saved by faith... as are we. Abraham believed God and (He) accounted it to him as righteousness.  What they believed in was the "seed" that was to come... the same that was testified by Job when he stated "I know (belief/faith) my Redeemer lives".


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2012)

I offer this.

Gospel means "good news".  I think there's more than one good news.

The good news of John the baptist was: prepare yourselves, the Messiah is coming.

The good news(Gospel) that Peter spoke in Acts 2 was:  The man that you Jews have killed is the Christ, and He has come to bring salvaton to those of you who believe in Him.

The good news(Gospel) that Peter taught to Cornelius was salvaton to a Gentile, the same salvation received by the Jews in Acts 2.

Most(actually all) books of the Bible were written to churches that included both Jewish Christians and Gentile(Greek) Christians. 
After the Jerusalem dispersion the church mixed very quickly, and that's why the churches had so many internal problems.  Many of the Jewish(past) Christians wanted Greeks to become Jews before they could become Christians.  Created lots of problems in the church.

The covenant is the same.  The promise is the same.  Our backgrounds are different.

The Gospel of Christ is all that we see of Him in His word today.


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## barryl (Jan 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well i guess it comes down to if Jews have a choice to stay under the Old Covenant, choose the New Covenant that also includes Gentiles, or do they have a completely different covenant all together? Didn't the Holy Spirit fall on only Jews at the Pentecost and Gentiles 7-10 years later? I'm just showing a difference.
> 
> We have a lot of discussions on here where someone will say, "Jesus was speaking to Jews in that verse" or "Paul was preaching to Gentiles."


Depends on whether you believe the Bible or not, The book of Galatians talks a great deal about mixing Mosaic Law{Moses} and Grace, A perfect example is, Paul, the Apostle to the Gentiles Acts 22:21, Romans 11:13. Peter, Apostle to the Jews Gal. 2:7-8. {Gal. Ch. 2 Paul rebuking Peter} Who was Peter preaching to in Acts Ch. 2? The Bible settles it better than I could ever hope to. I've seen you reference Heb. 4:12 {spiritual application}


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## Israel (Jan 6, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Same here. Christ is throughout the OT and I know I've only scratched the surface.
> 
> One thing to remember about the OT Jews was that they were still saved by faith... as are we. Abraham believed God and (He) accounted it to him as righteousness.  What they believed in was the "seed" that was to come... the same that was testified by Job when he stated "I know (belief/faith) my Redeemer lives".


Amen. 
Faith makes the "past" now...and the "future" now.
Faith considers a promise...done.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2013)

Jesus is the way.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 7, 2013)

It took awhile for the real gospel to be grasped. Mixing Law and grace was a big problem. Peter himself was not free from the law as he should have been and he was a teacher of the gospel. Remember that Peter healed someone on his way to pray at the appointed time. Why was he still doing this. Paul had grasped this new gospel.


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## thedeacon (Jan 7, 2013)

The sins of the Jews were saved by the same Christ that died for the sins of the Gentiles. There is and has always been only one way to salvation. As far as salvation, heavenly places, status with God etc. the only differance in Jews and Gentiles is in the mind of men. God has no respector of persons and when God said that Christ died for the whole world he meant just that. Jesus died to save the whole world, from beginning to end.


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## Lowjack (Jan 7, 2013)

As Pertaining to the Question of the OP.
We as Jews believe the New Covenant is for Israel only and the House of Judah , the New Covenant would include the Kigdom AKA as the Olam Habah In Hebrew , as G-d cause a parody by Blinding the Jews ( House Of Judah) in order to save the Gentiles ,Romans Chapter 11 then the New Covenant has not yet being established for Israel , many Confuse the New Covenant with the New Testament Brit Hadasah , these are two different things, we today still leave under Salvation By Grace through faith and Gentiles through faith in the Jewish Messiah, Jews of Old were saved by faith and by Mercy and Grace of G-d , the full New Covenant will be in place at the physical establishment of the Messianic Kingdom , when all Jews will be saved by simply living with G-d Himself , it is what we celebrate in the feast of Sukkot.
When we can call out and say "Emmanuel, Emmanuel"G-d himself is with us" Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> As Pertaining to the Question of the OP.
> We as Jews believe the New Covenant is for Israel only and the House of Judah , the New Covenant would include the Kigdom AKA as the Olam Habah In Hebrew , as G-d cause a parody by Blinding the Jews ( House Of Judah) in order to save the Gentiles ,Romans Chapter 11 then the New Covenant has not yet being established for Israel , many Confuse the New Covenant with the New Testament Brit Hadasah , these are two different things, we today still leave under Salvation By Grace through faith and Gentiles through faith in the Jewish Messiah, Jews of Old were saved by faith and by Mercy and Grace of G-d , the full New Covenant will be in place at the physical establishment of the Messianic Kingdom , when all Jews will be saved by simply living with G-d Himself , it is what we celebrate in the feast of Sukkot.
> When we can call out and say "Emmanuel, Emmanuel"G-d himself is with us" Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.



Thanks for the input but i'm still confused. Gentiles aren't under a covenant or is  Brit Hadasah our covenant? The New Covenant isn't in place until the physical establishment of the Messianic Kingdom or are Jews under it now?
Will all Jews be saved or just the Messianic Jews?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2013)

God can save anyone, but only the saved are 
Christians.



â€œWhosoever heareth,â€� shout, shout the sound!
 Spread the blessèd tidings all the world around;
 Spread the joyful news wherever man is found;
 â€œWhosoever will may come.â€�


â€œWhosoever will, whosoever will,â€�
 Send the proclamation over vale and hill;
 â€™Tis a loving Father, calls the wanderer home:
 â€œWhosoever will, may come.â€�

Whosoever cometh need not delay,
 Now the door is open, enter while you may;
 Jesus is the true, the only Living Way;
 â€œWhosoever will may come.â€�



â€œWhosoever will,â€� the promise secure,
 â€œWhosoever will,â€� forever must endure;
 â€œWhosoever will,â€� â€™tis life forevermore:
 â€œWhosoever will may come.â€�


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> God can save anyone, but only the saved are
> Christians.
> 
> â€œWhosoever heareth,â€� shout, shout the sound!
> ...



Yep, that's the way most Christians see it, not all but that's not the topic of this post. Not that we stay on topic so "amen" for the "whosoever" as that's my belief also. Even the one's God temporarily blinded for his purpose. The OP was about covenant differences but getting a little off topic myself: 
Lowjack posted , we are all saved by grace through faith.
Some Christians believe we are save by grace alone and our faith doesn't have much to do with the equation. As in: it's all up to God. 
I really don't know how or if the blinded Jews salvation is granted by God. If grace is enough, then they are in. If faith is involved then they might be in trouble. If it's just grace as some Elect believers believe then we could assume the blinded Jews are in. But these same Elect believers say God made some people for good and some people for evil. Looking at it that way, God made them evil for his purpose so they don't have much of a chance.
It might appear that i'm a little confused on this matter.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yep, that's the way most Christians see it, not all but that's not the topic of this post. Not that we stay on topic so "amen" for the "whosoever" as that's my belief also. .



Guess Im trying to say there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile in the New Testament...They are no more special than anyone else.Peter preached "Jesus" to the Jew first, and then to the rest of the world.Without the blood of Jesus applied, we are all doomed Jews and Gentiles alike.

This by the deacon answers the question perfectly I think.



thedeacon said:


> The sins of the Jews were saved by the same Christ that died for the sins of the Gentiles. There is and has always been only one way to salvation. As far as salvation, heavenly places, status with God etc. the only differance in Jews and Gentiles is in the mind of men. God has no respector of persons and when God said that Christ died for the whole world he meant just that. Jesus died to save the whole world, from beginning to end.


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## Lowjack (Jan 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for the input but i'm still confused. Gentiles aren't under a covenant or is  Brit Hadasah our covenant? The New Covenant isn't in place until the physical establishment of the Messianic Kingdom or are Jews under it now?
> Will all Jews be saved or just the Messianic Jews?



GEntiles are not under any Covenant ( Promise or contract) Gentiles are saved by believing Yeshua is the appropiation for their sins. Jews have 2 covenants with G-d one is the Abrahamic Covenant , 2 is the Torah (Law) neither one was made with any gentile nation. So be glad and happy G-d made it simple for you LOL.
Just believe and rejoice in the Messiah , he made all equal , male ,female, Jew and Gentile all one in Messiah.


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## Lowjack (Jan 8, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Guess Im trying to say there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile in the New Testament...They are no more special than anyone else.Peter preached "Jesus" to the Jew first, and then to the rest of the world.Without the blood of Jesus applied, we are all doomed Jews and Gentiles alike.
> 
> This by the deacon answers the question perfectly I think.



Romans 3;
1 Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles? Or is there any value in being circumcised? 2 Much, indeed, in every way! In the first place, God trusted his message to the Jews. 3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful? 4 Certainly not! God must be true, even though all human beings are liars. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried." 5 But what if our doing wrong serves to show up more clearly God's doing right? Can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (This would be the natural question to ask.) 6 By no means! If God is not just, how can he judge the world? 7 But what if my untruth serves God's glory by making his truth stand out more clearly? Why should I still be condemned as a sinner? 8 Why not say, then, "Let us do evil so that good may come"? Some people, indeed, have insulted me by accusing me of saying this very thing! They will be condemned, as they should be. 9 Well then, are we Jews in any better condition than the Gentiles? Not at all! I have already shown that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2013)

I cant respond to Romans 3 any better than Matthew Henry did. http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?b=45&c=3&com=mhc


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## Ronnie T (Jan 8, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Romans 3;
> 1 Do the Jews then have any advantage over the Gentiles? Or is there any value in being circumcised? 2 Much, indeed, in every way! In the first place, God trusted his message to the Jews. 3 But what if some of them were not faithful? Does this mean that God will not be faithful? 4 Certainly not! God must be true, even though all human beings are liars. As the scripture says, "You must be shown to be right when you speak; you must win your case when you are being tried." 5 But what if our doing wrong serves to show up more clearly God's doing right? Can we say that God does wrong when he punishes us? (This would be the natural question to ask.) 6 By no means! If God is not just, how can he judge the world? 7 But what if my untruth serves God's glory by making his truth stand out more clearly? Why should I still be condemned as a sinner? 8 Why not say, then, "Let us do evil so that good may come"? Some people, indeed, have insulted me by accusing me of saying this very thing! They will be condemned, as they should be. 9 Well then, are we Jews in any better condition than the Gentiles? Not at all! I have already shown that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin.


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## Lowjack (Jan 8, 2013)

The Torah was not given as a means of Salvation but rather a means of Sanctification ,or setting apart from other nations.
Those who believed that the Torah (Law) saved were in error , just like today those who believe they are saved by works are in error.No amount of Works can save your soul only G-d's grace and Mercy can save you in Christ Yeshua.
The Jews were ahead of the line ,because they knew this , way before any Gentile knew , but the field has being leveled now, we both know right and wrong and both will be Judge based on this fact .


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> The Torah was not given as a means of Salvation but rather a means of Sanctification ,or setting apart from other nations.
> Those who believed that the Torah (Law) saved were in error , just like today those who believe they are saved by works are in error.No amount of Works can save your soul only G-d's grace and Mercy can save you in Christ Yeshua.
> The Jews were ahead of the line ,because they knew this , way before any Gentile knew , but the field has being leveled now, we both know right and wrong and both will be Judge based on this fact .



Both will be judged for what reason? Rewards?
Would you say that salvation has always been  through faith in the Messiah, even before he arrived on Earth? Was everyone a Gentile until Abraham? Was this the first covenant? What about the covenant with Moses? Can't Covenant & Law be interchanged? Salvation is through grace & faith, why was the Jewish lineage started? Does the Bible give us any answers? Why did God need to start a particular blood line for Jesus to be a part of? I would assume Jesus was a Jew because his mother was. 
It appears very technical and interesting from a historical point of view. I guess it's important to know where we come from. I know the reasons of the Covenants, Laws & sacrifices, but I'm not following their importance if Grace & Faith is what Christianity is all about. 
Sacrifices, ceremonies, diets, circumcisions(only for men), Gentiles, Ark of the Covenant, Rites & Rituals, and marriage representing a wedding between God and Israel all seem like a lot if Grace & Faith of God & Jesus is all that is required.
Do you feel the things mentioned above was God teaching us not to get all wrapped up in Religion and remember Faith & Grace is the answer? Or is religion still important, Covenants, rites, & rituals?


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## Lowjack (Jan 9, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Both will be judged for what reason? Rewards?
> Would you say that salvation has always been  through faith in the Messiah, even before he arrived on Earth? Was everyone a Gentile until Abraham? Was this the first covenant? What about the covenant with Moses? Can't Covenant & Law be interchanged? Salvation is through grace & faith, why was the Jewish lineage started? Does the Bible give us any answers? Why did God need to start a particular blood line for Jesus to be a part of? I would assume Jesus was a Jew because his mother was.
> It appears very technical and interesting from a historical point of view. I guess it's important to know where we come from. I know the reasons of the Covenants, Laws & sacrifices, but I'm not following their importance if Grace & Faith is what Christianity is all about.
> Sacrifices, ceremonies, diets, circumcisions(only for men), Gentiles, Ark of the Covenant, Rites & Rituals, and marriage representing a wedding between God and Israel all seem like a lot if Grace & Faith of God & Jesus is all that is required.
> Do you feel the things mentioned above was God teaching us not to get all wrapped up in Religion and remember Faith & Grace is the answer? Or is religion still important, Covenants, rites, & rituals?



You asked many questions LOL , I don't know if I can answer all tonight but let's see how far we go.
The Judgement of G-d will be two fold , one he will Judge all nations according to how they treated his people(Israel) and two each person individually , some will be saved to live eternally some will be sent into eternal perdition and I'm not talking about Hades.The Judgement for reward is another judgement in which you will receive rewards as crowns for your Mitzvohts Good deeds or lack of because of your non-good deeds, but the reward to strive for is the crown of eternal life.

Salvation is through faith in G-d and this can get very tricky , G-d estates in Isaiah chapter 43 "that he is the only saviour and there is no other than can save" So even though Yeshuah is the appropiation for our sins , God the Father is still the saviour who gave his only son as that payment for the whole World.Yeshua was the that appropiation" since even before the foundation of the world so estates the Bible". All souls before he came were reserved until the day he died and arose from teh dead to receive this same salvation and many arose from the dead on that day Matthew chapter 51.

There were no Jews as a religion before Abraham only the sematic blood line that would become his chosen people , G-d made his first covenant with man through Abraham a covenant that has not yet being fulfilled and it is the main reason for a physical messianic Kingdom on earth.

The Covenant with Moses was the second covenant which gave Israel all of G-d's commandments exclusively for Israel , as moses said "not even our forefathers are covered by this covenant but only us who are here today and our descendants' Thus Judaism was born in Sanai that day. A covenant with moses is the Law , all promises in teh law are earthly promises , such if you obey my commandments ,I will give you rain when is due and I will give you health and wealth etc etc , there is no commandment that says if you obey my commandments I will give you heaven , that is all a christian believe.

The Jewish Lineage was established to identified the Messiah , from Judah and his Son Peretz was the Messiah to come and all the kings of Israel from Judah and Peretz.
Only someone who come from this lineage could be the messiah and King of Israel.
Yeshua was a Jew because he was born into a Jewish family , obeyed all the commandments including circumcision on the 8th day and was a Learned Rabbi in that religion and fulfilled over 300 prophecies that points to him as the Messiah , in those days Jewishness was determined through the Father not the mother as it is today, The descison to require teh mother to be Jewish came after the second world war ,because so many Jewish women were raped by Nazi soldiers.
But in teh Case of Yeshua we believe him to be the Son of the most high and since G-d is the king of Israel therefore that makes him 1000% Jewish in blood and religion.

As far as rituals and ceremonies and Holidays, that is the soul of the people of Israel , G-d made them Separate through these , for them to abandom such things would be their soul dying, Besides we find that during the Kingdom these things will be observed as well , we find that during the Kingdom Gentiles will be coming to Jerusalem to learn the law of G-d from Rabbis, Yeshua kept these his disciples kept them , it was only after 300 years when the Roman church did away with these , that Jews dropped out of Christianity.
All the feasts in Judaism were important because they pointed toward the messiah and his ministry , all important events were fulfilled by Yeshua during such feasts , the only two to be fulfilled as of yet is Roshashanah (Feast of Trumpets)which is the resurrection of teh dead ,And Sukkot (Feast Of Tabernackes) G-d living among us in person. I hope that helps you understand a little better, Shalom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 9, 2013)

Yeah, my mind was on a roll. Thanks for your input. You did a good job explaining. Could you explain the covenant with Abraham not being fulfilled yet. One more question was, what's the difference in the salvation of Messianic Jews and  Orthodox Jews?


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## Lowjack (Jan 9, 2013)

The Abarahamic Covenant was that Abraham and his seed would pocessed the land of canaan and the perimeters are set in the Torah , it also promises peace for Israel , so far in teh History of Israel ,it has not pocessed all the land promised except for a very short period during the Kingdom of David, Today Israel pocesses less than 65% of the land in the covenant,So the Abrahamic Covenant also suffered a paradox and it has being reserved for the days of the Kingdom yet to come , but because of the mistreatment of Jews Worldwide God has also promised that Israel will also pocess any land where the feet of a Jew has being taken as slave or abused , that could mean most of the gentile nations in the world ? There is no difference between messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews salvation , it is G-d YHWV who saves. I most also explain that all Jews are messianic in the sense that part of being a Jew is to believe in the Messiah to come , not necessarily Jesus as Messiah though.
The Teaching of a Messiah(Christ) is not just a gentile Christian Concept , it is Basic Gebneral Concept of Judaism.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isaiah 14:2 Nations will take them and bring them to their own place. And the house of Israel will possess the nations as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land. They will make captives of their captors and rule over their oppressors


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## toddboucher (Jan 9, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus is the way.



I see after Jesus paid the price both jews and non-jews either receive him or deal with choice. There is no other name by which man can be saved. for the Jews also!


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## Israel (Jan 9, 2013)

I had to come clean about a few things.
I don't want "attention" sometimes, I want it all the time.
I don't want peace sometimes, I want it all the time.
I don't want rest one day out of seven...I want it all the time.
I don't want responsibility, and have to and obligations...I want total liberty.
And yes, I don't want encouragement and comfort and a friend who understands me...sometimes...I want him around all the time.
I don't want a perimeter at all, I want all things, and yes, I want them now.
No...I need not quote a scripture...or ten.
The nub of it has come down to this alone for me..."they" are all here...right now...to be fully experienced and enjoyed. 

The only thing that ever restricts them, clouds them, hides them, is when I find myself in that place when I don't want them as much for...you.
Some may say...but that's a hard thing to learn, and perhaps I wouldn't disagree, nor be quick to say I've learned it at all...but I believe it.
I would say in light of what one receives in the learning of it...it is a very small price indeed...so small a cost, I believe it even disappears.

I've discovered...the point at which I am willing to settle for less than everything...(and that surely includes y'all, my brothers...my true family)...I seem to watch even the little bit I might have thought I'd had...vanish.

Maybe it's enough to say...to him who has...


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 10, 2013)

More questions for Lowjack. I realize Jesus died for everyone, Jew & Gentile, and the lineage is interesting. Jesus had to be born into some lineage. Someone had to be his mother. I'm interested in the comparison of Mary to Israel. Were both random? Were both surrogates? Protestants kinda downplay the importance of Mary as if she was a random person. Do Christians downplay the importance of Jews as the chosen race? Did God say well, I've gotta pick some Mother and some race, so Israel is the winner?
In other words, why the Jews? Why not the Chinese? Is it random?
Do you feel a certain favoritism as a Jew or is it just the opposite? 
Jesus came in a time of countries having kings. We now have democracies. Does this change how you look at kingdoms? Israel doesn't have a king today. I'll try to quit asking so many questions but I am glad that you are willing to answer.


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## Lowjack (Jan 10, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> More questions for Lowjack. I realize Jesus died for everyone, Jew & Gentile, and the lineage is interesting. Jesus had to be born into some lineage. Someone had to be his mother. I'm interested in the comparison of Mary to Israel. Were both random? Were both surrogates? Protestants kinda downplay the importance of Mary as if she was a random person. Do Christians downplay the importance of Jews as the chosen race? Did God say well, I've gotta pick some Mother and some race, so Israel is the winner?
> In other words, why the Jews? Why not the Chinese? Is it random?
> Do you feel a certain favoritism as a Jew or is it just the opposite?
> Jesus came in a time of countries having kings. We now have democracies. Does this change how you look at kingdoms? Israel doesn't have a king today. I'll try to quit asking so many questions but I am glad that you are willing to answer.



LOL , Glad to give you my input.
Yes Mary Was Important , Must people do not realize Mariamw (Mary) was a Princess in the tribe of Judah so was Yosef (Joseph) she was chosen to be the mother of the Messiah , in Modern terms I would call her a surrogate mother she carry the embryo of the messiah which had being prepared before hand sinless , there is plenty of evidence his body was prepared before hand and kept until it was inplanted into marry , when was his body made ? it is unknown , could have being when G-d took a DNA stock from Adam to make a Woman , while he was still sinless ? Just speculating here. So Yeshua although son of Mary probably had no DNA from Mary, IMO.

Yes a lot of Christians downplay the Importance of Israel as the chosen people and sometimes unknownly curse themselves when they speak ill of Jews , it is G-d's chosen , the apple of his eye and carry G-d's name in them. Take the example of Hugo Chavez Frias President of Venezuela , just a year and a half ago , he sided with Iran and the Palestinians , he cursed Israel 100 times " and said from the deepest parts of my guts I curse Israel, Etc etc , Today we believe he is dead in Cuba after having 4 operations for Cancer ,He was supposed to swear the flag as the New re-elected President of Venezuela , yet he is no where to be heard from , the country is a brink of a political coup. I tell Ignorant people you want to be poor for the rest of your life ? Curse the Jews''

No it wasn't random , the chinese or any other nation did not receive the oracles of G-d and the promise of the Messiah , it was given to Israel exclusevely.

The feeling I have is not favoritism for if it wasn't for G-d's Mercy and grace Through Messiah I would be Waiting for Judgement ,Today I know I'm saved for the Olam Haba (Kingdom, life To Come)Christians believe they are saved to go to heaven , Jews believe they are saved for the Kingdom or Life to come.
I feel proud to be a Jew , from the house of Judah and even carry the same ancestors as Yeshua did , same family as David , but that doesn't buy me salvation.

Jews do not have a king yet except G-d Himself , as we write this there are institutions in Israel which are doing DNA testing of Individuals who descend from the house of David to eventually elect a king , thus bringing the kingdom of David back , I personally don't believe they will accomplish this before the true King Returns , Malek Yeshua Hamasshiach Beni Elohim , That is King Yeshua the Christ son of The Most High. Shalom 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davidic_line


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## Boot (Jan 11, 2013)

Lowjack, I have 2 questions -#1, am I not grafted into the olive tree after realizing that Yeshua paid my debt to Yahweh? And #2, am I wasting my time trying to learn/observe torah? I wasnt born jewish, however, my messiah kept torah, knew torah, wrote the torah, and in my simple understanding, was the torah made flesh. I know I can NEVER earn my way to heaven, but isn't obedience better than sacrifice? I've learned that the coming kingdom, is much more than "heaven ", and that torah is Elohim's prescription for how to conduct myself in this life, being set apart, obedient, and honoring my creator. Or did I just get that all wrong being born a gentile? In no way am I being disrespectful, or a smart bottom. Honest questions, seeking honest answers. Iron does sharpen iron after all.


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## barryl (Jan 11, 2013)

Boot said:


> Lowjack, I have 2 questions -#1, am I not grafted into the olive tree after realizing that Yeshua paid my debt to Yahweh? And #2, am I wasting my time trying to learn/observe torah? I wasnt born jewish, however, my messiah kept torah, knew torah, wrote the torah, and in my simple understanding, was the torah made flesh. I know I can NEVER earn my way to heaven, but isn't obedience better than sacrifice? I've learned that the coming kingdom, is much more than "heaven ", and that torah is Elohim's prescription for how to conduct myself in this life, being set apart, obedient, and honoring my creator. Or did I just get that all wrong being born a gentile? In no way am I being disrespectful, or a smart bottom. Honest questions, seeking honest answers. Iron does sharpen iron after all.


 x2 I thought Jesus Christ fulfilled the "Law".


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## Boot (Jan 11, 2013)

Christ did fulfill the law. Not abolish it. That was my point in asking the question. If Christ is our roll model, why do I get flamed so much for observing what He did?


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## Lowjack (Jan 11, 2013)

Boot said:


> Lowjack, I have 2 questions -#1, am I not grafted into the olive tree after realizing that Yeshua paid my debt to Yahweh? And #2, am I wasting my time trying to learn/observe torah? I wasnt born jewish, however, my messiah kept torah, knew torah, wrote the torah, and in my simple understanding, was the torah made flesh. I know I can NEVER earn my way to heaven, but isn't obedience better than sacrifice? I've learned that the coming kingdom, is much more than "heaven ", and that torah is Elohim's prescription for how to conduct myself in this life, being set apart, obedient, and honoring my creator. Or did I just get that all wrong being born a gentile? In no way am I being disrespectful, or a smart bottom. Honest questions, seeking honest answers. Iron does sharpen iron after all.



Well Boot the Torah was not given to the gentiles to Observe , it was an exclusive Covenant between Israel and G-d , as the council of Jerusalem decided , gentiles are to observe teh Noahchide Laws , which are the laws that were observed by the Patriarchs to Noah , The Torah was given in Sinai exclusively to those people that were present who came out of bondage from Egypt to them and their descendants , Now as a matter of concious if you want to keep the commandments as a way of sanctification then it is up to you , let's put it this way ,G-d will not be angry LOL. But then make sure you are keeping it correctly starting from keeping the Sabbath which is not sunday etc. and as you said as long as you don't think you are saved because you keep it.


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## Lowjack (Jan 11, 2013)

barryl said:


> x2 I thought Jesus Christ fulfilled the "Law".



Fulfilled means he kept it to the T . not as men did.
How can He do away with the Torah , when he said I have not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it , until heaven and earth passes away the Torah will stand,
Anyone who does not keep the law and teaches oters not to do so will be very small in the Kingdom of G-d."

We must learn to divide the word , what is pertaining to Israel and what is pertaining to the Gentile Church, they are two separate entities but with one final outcome.


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## Boot (Jan 11, 2013)

I keep the sabbath, wont allow pork or pork products in my house, and am currently studying the feasts, so I can honor those. I must humbly disagree about the 2 separate laws for jew or gentile. Am I not a sojourner in the land? I thought I remembered reading that there is but one Torah.  Im sure I have much to learn, but I'm also sure that the Almighty knows my heart, and I tell ya, the more I am obedient, and observant, the closer I am drawn to Him. I was a little surprised at your answer lowjack, but I appreciate the response, and will read about the noahchide laws.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2013)

Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

My comments: First Jesus said he hasn't come to abolish the law. Then he tells us "until heaven & earth disappear" the tiniest little bit of the Law applies until "all is accomplished".

Now I don't know who has to follow the Law, I hope it's just the Jews. But it stands until the earth disappears and all is accomplished. Well the earth is still here and Jesus hasn't returned yet.


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## Israel (Jan 12, 2013)

The new man teaches the law...by being an example of it.
The old man _says_ "Thou shalt not commit adultery".
The new man is the one who is absolutely delighted in his bride.
The old man _says_, "thou shalt not steal."
The new man is marveling that all things are already his in Christ.
The old man _says_ "thou shalt love the Lord thy God."
The new man sometimes wonders "what else could there possibly be that compares to seeing the Lord?"
The old man _says_ "keep the sabbath".
The new man says nothing of himself, does nothing of himself, and indeed..."keeps" nothing of himself...and is amazed that rest is his birthright, for eternity...starting the moment he believes.

And he knows there is a labor to enter rest...for he has "tried" all he can possibly muster to "do"...and discovered being and doing is the order...not doing to be.

And so, a believer is marked not by what he does, but by whose he has learned, he is. 

There is a road that leads to understanding whom the chiefest of sinners is...and for whom the Lord came to be the truth for the one who knows that _way_. 
If God so chooses to raise what he has declared a curse for hanging on a tree, and sit him down beside himself...maybe a man can discover that "road". 
We _try_ to keep the shiny side up...all we need do is see is the light...that makes all things new...and stop trying.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 12, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
> Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
> 
> My comments: First Jesus said he hasn't come to abolish the law. Then he tells us "until heaven & earth disappear" the tiniest little bit of the Law applies until "all is accomplished".
> ...



Here's something to consider,
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1991_jordan_future-israel.html


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## barryl (Jan 12, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Fulfilled means he kept it to the T . not as men did.
> How can He do away with the Torah , when he said I have not come to do away with the Law but to fulfill it , until heaven and earth passes away the Torah will stand,
> Anyone who does not keep the law and teaches oters not to do so will be very small in the Kingdom of G-d."
> 
> We must learn to divide the word , what is pertaining to Israel and what is pertaining to the Gentile Church, they are two separate entities but with one final outcome.


I agree totally The Lord Jesus Christ fufilled the Law. I made this statement on another thread that man couldn't keep the Law if his life depended on it. The Book of Galatians talks a great deal about mixing Law and Grace. O.T. salvation{circumcision}{Peter}and N.T. salvation{uncircumsion}{Paul}. Yes, we need to learn to "Rightly divide the word of Truth". God changed the plan for a while.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2013)

1 John 3:22  
And whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. 

Proverbs 28:9 
If one turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer is an abomination.


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## Lowjack (Jan 12, 2013)

Amein , Most of you  are on the right track.


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## Israel (Jan 12, 2013)

One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. 

One thing thou lackest...

Almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades...

I wouldn't begin to say Jesus was reproving him to the point of exclusion...he simply gives each of us the one thing we lack...the impossible instruction.
If we think we are doing well...but for the "one" thing we can't...it behooves us to discover him who does all things well.
Or...we can just walk away saddened.


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## Lowjack (Jan 12, 2013)

Israel said:


> One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.
> 
> One thing thou lackest...
> 
> ...



Point taken , but also see that the young man said he had kept the Torah Fully since he was very young and Jesus did not contradict him , meaning there are people who do keep the Torah 100% but it is not enough to earn teh Kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Here's something to consider,
> http://www.preteristarchive.com/Modern/1991_jordan_future-israel.html



I can't say I agree with James B. Jordan on Preterism but I will give it some thought. It would answer questions about Revelation. Are you a Preterist? Mr. Jordan was born in Athens, Ga. and attended UGA.
I don't believe Mormons, Jews, and Muslims worship a different God than Christians. If people believe there is a different way to Heaven than Jesus, they are wrong, but they are still worshiping the God of Abraham.
If the predictions in the New Testament concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 hasn't already happened, then his beliefs on Jews doesn't hold water. 
Mr. Jordan writes very well and it was a easy read. He made a convincing argument.

I'd like to hear more opinions. Do the Jews of the Bible still exist or have they all converted to Christianity? Are modern Jews, Jewish in name only?
He made a good point on "falling away" too. Christians leaving the Church. Some members of this forum say this is impossible.


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## Lowjack (Jan 12, 2013)

Muslims do not worship the same G-d read on it , Allah dates back to even before the Israelis Coming into Canaan , it was a god called the god of the moon , who had a wife and 3 daughters, the Muhammed adopted him as their god.

http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Muslims do not worship the same G-d read on it , Allah dates back to even before the Israelis Coming into Canaan , it was a god called the god of the moon , who had a wife and 3 daughters, the Muhammed adopted him as their god.
> 
> http://www.bible.ca/islam/islam-moon-god.htm



Ok, we'll drop Allah from the list. So you don't believe Ishmael has any connection to the Muslim faith?

Does the Jewish faith worship the same God as Christians? Do Mormons worship the same God as Methodist? Do J.W's worship the same God as Catholics? Do Oneness believer worship the same God as Trinity believers?
Are there any pagan rituals that have found there way into Christianity?


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## Israel (Jan 13, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Point taken , but also see that the young man said he had kept the Torah Fully since he was very young and Jesus did not contradict him , meaning there are people who do keep the Torah 100% but it is not enough to earn teh Kingdom.



Do you really believe the young ruler kept the Torah?
I am not convinced.
(I am convinced he "thought" he did what was pleasing to God...as we all do. And then of course, naively freely admitted to it.)

But...let's say the supposition is correct...at what point is there any benefit to the soul of keeping anything if one does not obey Messiah when he speaks to us? 

Either Torah is a benefit to the soul, when kept, and will show us Messiah...or if it is only "admittedly" kept...will actually be something of a fall back position...a hindrance...that allows us to embrace our own worth and say..."I keep Torah", as for this man Jesus, he is not worth following?

No, the cross is for both Jew and Greek, male and female, young and old, the place where all our own righteousness is truly displayed for what it is...where we can have hope in NOTHING...except the mercy of God.

But, of course...if we still see God as the hoop maker (jump through this one to show me you love me, jump through that one now) we will have little confidence that we are made for, and from, love and mercy...but merely as performers.
And no man does "death" as well as Jesus. He swallows it. For our benefit...not to make a show of himself. 

But, as I said...it is a good indictment (that Jesus never spoke to this man's exclusion)...for he went away "sad"...showing that there was a disappointment already at work in him...that could eventually blossom into a Godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

He touched spiritual reality...truth...apart from his own "doing"...for there is _nothing_ we embrace more than our own righteousness, but even the slightest touch from Jesus...is enough to cut those bonds we have forged for ourselves...and free us.

Even our brother Paul, though claiming many things as to his prior condition, had to admit despite his apparent and outward demonstrations..."thou shalt not covet" was a place where he came to understand something of which he spoke in another place...to fail at one...is to be guilty of all. 
I believe he saw covetousness as the mainspring of his prior life...the lust to acquire and possess...and from there even recognized...it had infected his motives regarding all the law.

I cannot tell you how much I love God...or at all what I do "for him"...for it is as nothing in the balance...but I can declare without hesitation how much he loves the chiefest of sinners...Oh, how he does!


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## hobbs27 (Jan 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't say I agree with James B. Jordan on Preterism but I will give it some thought. It would answer questions about Revelation. Are you a Preterist? Mr. Jordan was born in Athens, Ga. and attended UGA.
> I don't believe Mormons, Jews, and Muslims worship a different God than Christians. If people believe there is a different way to Heaven than Jesus, they are wrong, but they are still worshiping the God of Abraham.
> If the predictions in the New Testament concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 hasn't already happened, then his beliefs on Jews doesn't hold water.
> Mr. Jordan writes very well and it was a easy read. He made a convincing argument.
> ...



I lean partial preterist, I believe the judgement prophecy that we read about in the OT and in the Gospels, {matthew 24} is about the new covenant which ends with the destruction of Israel in 70 ad. and it is fulfilled.I don't want to turn this into another debate about it though, I just don't have the appetite to argue with my fellow brothers/sisters right now.I believe there is only one God...The Father,The Son,The Holy Ghost...That is the God I worship, Jews and Muslims do not worship that God, so I believe we do indeed worship different gods.Im glad you took the time to read the link there's many more on the net, and many books on preterist viewpoints, one really good one is "Matthew 24 fulfilled by: John L Bray".


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## gemcgrew (Jan 13, 2013)

Israel said:


> I cannot tell you how much I love God...or at all what I do "for him"...for it is as nothing in the balance...but I can declare without hesitation how much he loves the chiefest of sinners...Oh, how he does!



A sinner is an elusive thing. So much so, in fact, I couldn't find one in myself. Grace revealed it, when I wasn't looking.


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## Lowjack (Jan 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ok, we'll drop Allah from the list. So you don't believe Ishmael has any connection to the Muslim faith?
> 
> Does the Jewish faith worship the same God as Christians? Do Mormons worship the same God as Methodist? Do J.W's worship the same God as Catholics? Do Oneness believer worship the same God as Trinity believers?
> Are there any pagan rituals that have found there way into Christianity?



Ishmael was circumcised on the that day when abraham made the blood covenant with G-d , so Ishmael was a Jew.Most of the people who today call themselves Arabs are not Arabs by blood and do not descend from Ishmael , Beduin Arabs and the Druze are the direct descendants of Ishmael and live in peace with Israel and are even part of the Keneset and police and Army.
"Abraham and his son Ishmael were both circumcised on that same day."Genesis 17;26

We assume that the above mentioned do worship the G-d of Yisrael Yacov and Ishac , yes there is a lot of paganism within all churches today.


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