# Summer Striper C&R=High Death Rates



## BradMyers (Jul 6, 2012)

This has become a passion of mine. Making sure striper anglers are aware of the damage catch & release does when water temps get above 76 degrees. I became aware of this after a 5 day trip to Lanier we caught over 50 fish on that trip and after getting my limit for cooking the guide would release the fish by shooting in down into the water to try to get the fish past the 26' warm water column (torpedoing), I ask why and he said it gave the fish a better chance at survival. Wrong. I came back home and started researching this and felt horrible realizing how many fish went to waste

Many states have conducted studies on this subject and the facts are there. The lactic acid build up during a stripers fight in warm water conditions is almost certain death and in most cases the fish goes to the bottom and dies, even though the fish swims off it can be misleading giving the angler a false sense of survival. From June-Sept on Santee Cooper the striper fishing is closed for this reason. Other states or impoundments have put restrictions on C&R during the warmer months.

7/7/12 on my radio show Dr. Steve Sammons of the Fisheries Department at Auburn University will be my guest to discuss the study he conducted on Lake Martin back in 2009. This study showed 100% death rate on C&R from the summer.

Striped Bass are a put & take fishery, they are also great eating. During the warmer months if you fish reservoirs, catch what you need for the ice chest and go after something else. Or seek cooler waters in rivers for striper fishing if you’re into C&R.  

C&R for stripers in warm water = DEATH. I hope you will tune us in or listen online.


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## fishingga (Jul 6, 2012)

Well said. 

What station and time is your show?


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 6, 2012)

Brad, not to be argumentative here but saying that you are merely:


> Making sure striper anglers are aware of the damage catch & release does when water temps get above 76 degrees.



And then telling someone to do something that is contradictory to the law is a little over the top, don't you think?


> During the warmer months if you fish reservoirs, catch what you need for the ice chest and go after something else. Or seek cooler waters in rivers for striper fishing if you’re into C&R.



You may want to recommend that to folks rather than telling them to do it.

I hear ya though, whether they go to the bottom or the Igloo cooler, they are dead either way. I feel like they have a better chance if swim away on their own.


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## brianj (Jul 6, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> Brad, not to be argumentative here but saying that you are merely:
> 
> 
> And then telling someone to do something that is contradictory to the law is a little over the top, don't you think?
> ...



Jim.  What are you referencing that is against the law?  tks


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## brianj (Jul 6, 2012)

Brad.  Any studies on C&R for hybrids?  They are a little more resistant to the heat arent they?

Also, 100% death seems extreme.  Would seem that there would be floating fish all over the lake, but I'm not claiming to be an expert.

I'd be interested in hearing striper soup shawn (cant remember his gon name) chiming in - I believe he has a degree in marine biology or something like that

Thanks for the bringing the fact that there is a high mortality rate in the summer to everyone's attention.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 6, 2012)

Brian, it's not against the law to practice C&R on our reservoirs. Basically, what Brad is telling us is to only catch your legal limit (whether or not your practice C&R) and then go catch something else. In the case of striped bass, he has a very valid point, but it's not against the law. 

But hey man, that's how laws get changed. Just what Brad is doing. I commend him for that. I was just suggesting that he ask or recommend folks only catch their legal limit if you only practice C&R.


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## Old Dead River (Jul 6, 2012)

sorry to be off topic, but I'd like some studies done on largemouth dying during the warmer months


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## AStrick (Jul 6, 2012)

No worries! I never catch my limit!
But it ain't from the lack of tryin!


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## Troutman3000 (Jul 6, 2012)

Also another reason while fishing on Lanier to fill out the angler surveys.  It gives the DNR a baseline for the fish population and may positively affect the management plan in the future.  

http://www.lanierstripedbasscoalition.org/angler-diary/


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## Hyper Sniper (Jul 6, 2012)

As far as what the studies on Lanier have shown throught the past 15 years is around the 50% mark. This may be high or low, but that is what the DNR has reported time and time again. Mind you Lanier is a whole lot deeper than Lake Martin, but I have a hard time with 100% dead.

On the other hand I do get the picture and it is for sure the time to put your fish away for the freezer.


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 6, 2012)

Hybrids are fine to catch. They are a much stronger fish with heat.

Here is the link to the study. 

http://www.alabamapower.com/hydro/Martin%20License%20Application/CD_Files/Final_Reports/Study_Report_6.pdf


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## Gadestroyer74 (Jul 6, 2012)

so am i reading this right.. i go to a lake with a water temp above 76 and most lakes are in the 85 degree range. and i catch lets say a 25lb striper. if i dont keep this fish its most likely gonna die..  am i reading this right ??


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## Cy Grajcar (Jul 6, 2012)

That is why I LOVE my rivers for C&R.  Always below 76 in the areas I am fishing.  Makes for a much cooler day with cold water and shade also.  lol


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## brianj (Jul 6, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> Brian, it's not against the law to practice C&R on our reservoirs. Basically, what Brad is telling us is to only catch your legal limit (whether or not your practice C&R) and then go catch something else. In the case of striped bass, he has a very valid point, but it's not against the law.
> 
> But hey man, that's how laws get changed. Just what Brad is doing. I commend him for that. I was just suggesting that he ask or recommend folks only catch their legal limit if you only practice C&R.



Thank; I follow now.


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## bayoubetty (Jul 6, 2012)

Cy Grajcar said:


> That is why I LOVE my rivers for C&R.  Always below 76 in the areas I am fishing.  Makes for a much cooler day with cold water and shade also.  lol



oh yeah it does! I felt llike I was on the surface of the sun today!


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## sburnette (Jul 6, 2012)

I wonder if it helps to get them in quick so the lactic acid is at a low level? I've seen other species caught and brought in green so the mortality rate is low. Might want to leave the light tackle at home....


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## Hyper Sniper (Jul 6, 2012)

sburnette said:


> I wonder if it helps to get them in quick so the lactic acid is at a low level? I've seen other species caught and brought in green so the mortality rate is low. Might want to leave the light tackle at home....



This is exactly what the DNR studies showed. The quicker they come to the boat the better there chances. This time of year I typically don't use a net and quickly unhook and release. The worse thing one can do is have a long battle with light line. Get them in as quick as you can, this is why I use 20lb main line and 16# leaders.


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## Big Texun (Jul 6, 2012)

Hyper Sniper said:


> The worse thing one can do is have a long battle with light line. Get them in as quick as you can, this is why I use 20lb main line and 16# leaders.



On the lakes I fish, I'd kill zero fish if I used 20 lb main, 16 lb leaders this time of year.


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## henryc (Jul 6, 2012)

Hyper Sniper said:


> As far as what the studies on Lanier have shown throught the past 15 years is around the 50% mark. This may be high or low, but that is what the DNR has reported time and time again. Mind you Lanier is a whole lot deeper than Lake Martin, but I have a hard time with 100% dead.QUOTE]
> 
> I sat in on one of these DNR meetings re: Lanier summer striper mortality back in 2005. It was presented by the then current Lake Lanier biologist Reggie Weaver. Reggie felt thru studies made by himself (using the hard to find little data he collected) as well as talking with other lake biologists who collected striped bass mortality data from other southern impondments from TN, VA. AL and SC & concluded that Laniers summertime mortality was at least 75% no matter how quickly the fish is handled & released. His opinion was to leave the fish alone. I AGREE!!!! I do not guide Lanier after end-June nor fire it up before Oct. I choose to fish the Hooch for stripers below Morgan Falls or fish for carp on the fly in the Bull Sluice section. No one is breaking the law by fishing these fish over the summer. You are just guaranteeing yourself that your fishery will be ever more challenging as you pay it forward....personally I wished they'd shut it down completely from Browns Bridge south till Oct 1st.
> 
> HC


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## fairweatherfisherman (Jul 6, 2012)

I appreciate you bringing this up on GON.  This information has been out there for a while now, but your post and your radio program will make many more people aware.


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## BradMyers (Jul 6, 2012)

fishingga said:


> Well said.
> 
> What station and time is your show?


Down here in your neck of the woods 92.5fm 6a-8a. Love to have ya aboard.



brianj said:


> Brad.  Any studies on C&R for hybrids?  They are a little more resistant to the heat arent they?
> 
> Thanks for the bringing the fact that there is a high mortality rate in the summer to everyone's attention.


Brian, I'm not sure but I have asked biologist and was told the laterel line has a lot to do with producing the latic acid in stripers that stresses them. Hybrids do have the laterel line as well, I'll be sure to ask Dr Sammons. In talking with a guide on this subject said the big hybrids caught this time of year on Burton always float. BTW thank you.



Scout'nStripers said:


> But hey man, that's how laws get changed. Just what Brad is doing. I commend him for that. I was just suggesting that he ask or recommend folks only catch their legal limit if you only practice C&R.


Jim thank you for pointing that out. I certainly wasn’t trying to come off as “telling anyone” but I reckon I did. Thanks for kindly pointing that out and thanks for the support of my effort to let anglers know about this problem. BTW I’m a huge fan of your product line and it looks like your products are top quality. Those planner boards are something else. Santa is gonna hear from me.



Old Dead River said:


> sorry to be off topic, but I'd like some studies done on largemouth dying during the warmer months


No problem, I did ask a biologist if the black bass fish were affected by this as well and he said no. Different species with a different lateral line. Think about how hot some of them farm ponds get and the bass live on.



Hyper Sniper said:


> As far as what the studies on Lanier have shown throught the past 15 years is around the 50% mark. This may be high or low, but that is what the DNR has reported time and time again. Mind you Lanier is a whole lot deeper than Lake Martin, but I have a hard time with 100% dead.
> 
> On the other hand I do get the picture and it is for sure the time to put your fish away for the freezer.


I wish DRN would publish these studies, other states have. As far as the 100%, it's true and in the link that Dustin posted. Keep in mind there were only 5 fish obtained in this study but the number is correct. The studies that I have read from various states shows a 75-100% C&R mortality rate. I'm with ya on the C&RG, (catch & release in greese or grill).



Gadestroyer74 said:


> so am i reading this right.. i go to a lake with a water temp above 76 and most lakes are in the 85 degree range. and i catch lets say a 25lb striper. if i dont keep this fish its most likely gonna die..  am i reading this right ??


Yes.



Cy Grajcar said:


> That is why I LOVE my rivers for C&R.  Always below 76 in the areas I am fishing.  Makes for a much cooler day with cold water and shade also.  lol


I like the way you roll. Talk to you in the morn. BTW you forgot to mention, a lot less monkey boats.



henryc said:


> I sat in on one of these DNR meetings re: Lanier summer striper mortality back in 2005. It was presented by the then current Lake Lanier biologist Reggie Weaver. Reggie felt thru studies made by himself (using the hard to find little data he collected) as well as talking with other lake biologists who collected striped bass mortality data from other southern impondments from TN, VA. AL and SC & concluded that Laniers summertime mortality was at least 75% no matter how quickly the fish is handled & released. His opinion was to leave the fish alone. I AGREE!!!! I do not guide Lanier after end-June nor fire it up before Oct. I choose to fish the Hooch for stripers below Morgan Falls or fish for carp on the fly in the Bull Sluice section. No one is breaking the law by fishing these fish over the summer. You are just guaranteeing yourself that your fishery will be ever more challenging as you pay it forward....personally I wished they'd shut it down completely from Browns Bridge south till Oct 1st.
> 
> HC



Henry well put, the key is loss of habitat. Meaning much of the lakes water is not sutiable to maintain stripers which bunches the fish up in more suitable areas and it can be like shooting bream in a rain barrel.

Folks I’m not trying to come off as a self righteous individual, I’m just trying to create awareness for this. Let’s do some quick modest math. If 20 anglers on Lanier over a 1 week period, fishing 5 day’s a week C&R 5 striped bass per day and we had a mortality rate of only 50%, (which is below the average) that would be 50 wasted dead stripers. 
Now take that over a twelve week period that’s 600 wasted fish. Now factor less modest and more accurate numbers at the 75-95% rate with a few more than 20 anglers that C&R stripers on Lanier, it will become a future problem. 

We already know that Lanier and many other lakes got shorted their fingerling allotment this year and folk have been complaining about the lower number of fish caught at Lanier. If summer C&R mortality is not addressed it will only get worse and the closure of lake sections or impoundments may be imminent. 

The choice as anglers for this awesome fish is ours.


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## BradMyers (Jul 6, 2012)

fairweatherfisherman said:


> I appreciate you bringing this up on GON.  This information has been out there for a while now, but your post and your radio program will make many more people aware.



Thanks my man.


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## Mikemad (Jul 7, 2012)

*Yes, that fish is dead.*



Gadestroyer74 said:


> so am i reading this right.. i go to a lake with a water temp above 76 and most lakes are in the 85 degree range. and i catch lets say a 25lb striper. if i dont keep this fish its most likely gonna die..  am i reading this right ??



Pretty much any striper over 6 to 8 lbs that is caught will be dead within 2 days.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

*Opinions*

If anyone has any concrete data on Lake Lanier and summer mortality rates that does not include hear say from 5-10 years ago from a buddy that knew someone or a study that was conducted in another state on another lake, which is lacking in the condition of the fish, size, depth, location were taken I'd like to see it. Post it up. If you know for a fact that these stripers are definitely dead here on Lanier, prove it!

The fact is, all folks can do is try and convince people of a baseless point of view. It's very convienent to say the stripers go to the bottom and die since there is not much evidence of floaters to reference. Well, show me pictures of dead fish on the bottom. Lets see it. Surely with the technology today, the DNR and all that money that is donated to them, someone could come up with a study including concrete data on Lake Lanier.

I've seen and heard a lot of speculation about this but as far as a deeper lake like Lanier is concerned, I haven't seen one shred of concrete evidence yet. Only folks that think they are the authority.

I'd like it better if people said that is their opinion, because that's all it is.


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## Mikemad (Jul 7, 2012)

*Great Topic*

I personally am very glad this subject has been raised.  The studies are out there and there is very little to no disagreement on the numbers.  The percentage of fish that will die is VERY high - between 73 to 100 percent. 

WRD does factor in angler mortality when determining stocking rates, regulations, etc.  WRD attempts to factor in how many fish are caught in the summer time and count a high percentage of those summer time stripers as dead fish.  

Most dead fish do not FLOAT. 

One of the best things that can be done has been addressed with this thread - education.  The more striper anglers that know about the issue, the more striper anglers that will make responsible choices to be good stewards of the resource.  

Another very important thing is getting the WRD the information they need to have a better idea of what is happening on the lake.  As Troutman3000 mentioned - the LSBC angler survey is a GREAT tool for this - LSBC Angler Survey

Capt. Clay and myself met with WRD 2 weeks or so ago and Patrick (Lanier Biologist) had done a download of the data and had a chance to do a preliminary review of the data and it's going to be very helpful with managing Lanier. 

Basically, the survey is acting as a year round creel study.  The more people that fill it out the more data WRD will have to make management plans.


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## BradMyers (Jul 7, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> If anyone has any concrete data on Lake Lanier and summer mortality rates that does not include hear say from 5-10 years ago from a buddy that knew someone or a study that was conducted in another state on another lake, which is lacking in the condition of the fish, size, depth, location were taken I'd like to see it. Post it up. If you know for a fact that these stripers are definitely dead here on Lanier, prove it!
> 
> The fact is, all you can do is try and convince people of your point of view. It's very convienent to say the stripers go to the bottom and die. Well, show me pictures of dead fish on the bottom. Lets see it.
> 
> ...


Jim, Reggie Weaver did a study years ago but to the best of my knowledge it was not published. Really whats the difference between a study conducted on Logan Martin or Melton Hill vs Lanier? As far as floaters, Dr. Sammons referenced a study that was conducted in Tn. on what percent of stripers floated. He said the deeper the water the fish was caught, anything over 30' the fish sank.

My point of view doesn't matter and I have never claimed to be an expert on the subject, that's why I brought an expert who has studied this on my show. Take the time to read the report in the link posted by Dustin or at least read the summary. Too bad you did not get to hear the show, you would have been hearing from someone that has studied this subject.


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 7, 2012)

I wanted to add this in. This was/is one of the reason I am not a huge supporter of the stocking of stripers in West Point (among a few other reasons). Our water breached these temps back around the first of June so I basically haven't been fishing since then on the lake. Now we are getting a mix of hybrids again. I would love to go just after them but in reality I am just as likely to catch a striper and kill it.


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## Mikemad (Jul 7, 2012)

Jim, you are %100 correct - there has never been (to my knowledge anyway) a summer time C&R mortaility study done on Lanier.  (Just noticed that Brad posted that Reggie had done one.)

The WRD biologists believe that the simliar results of multiple studies on other lakes in the Southeast is conclusive enough.  

Clay and I  asked WRD if the LSBC should consider raising funds for Summer time C&R mortality study on Lanier and WRD felt it would be waste of money.   I consider WRD to be the authority on this issue on Lanier. 

Money is never donated to WRD, only time and equipment, WRD is prohibited from accepting cash donations. 

I feel it's great that the anglers are passionate enough about the stripers lanier to have discussions such as this.  Only by being involved can one make things better.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

> I wanted to add this in. This was/is one of the reason I am not a huge supporter of the stocking of stripers in West Point (among a few other reasons). Our water breached these temps back around the first of June so I basically haven't been fishing since then on the lake. Now we are getting a mix of hybrids again. I would love to go just after them but in reality I am just as likely to catch a striper and kill it.



Dustin, I've been fishing WP just about as long as Lanier. I agree about the stripers in WP. That shallow lake is much better off with Hybrids. I'd like to see that on Lanier. Especially if there are groups who's ultimate goal is to close or severely limit striper fishing during the summer months on Lanier.


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## Mikemad (Jul 7, 2012)

Jim, if you know of any groups that want to close or limit striper fishing on Lanier in the summer, please let me know - I would like to discuss it with them. It would be a very bad idea, for many reasons. 

I know I say this all the time, but getting WRD the data they need to get a better handle on what takes place on Lanier is KEY.

Do fish get killed in the summer, no doubt - is that a serious issue - I don't think anyone has a answer to that question - but in the end, the fish are put there to be caught.   1st step is to determine if it's a problem or not. 2nd step would how to address the problem.  I am confident that if it was determined that there was problem, that WRD would do their best to address it in some way.    Closing or severely limiting striper fishing during the summer months on Lanier should not even be on the table, IMHO.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

> Money is never donated to WRD, only time and equipment, WRD is prohibited from accepting cash donations.


You know what I'm talking about Mike. Please don't insult my intelligence.



> The WRD biologists believe that the simliar results of multiple studies on other lakes in the Southeast is conclusive enough.



Mike I'd just like to look at one study where the fish has access to a thermocline 25 feet below the boat. I see studies on shallower water lakes where a fish is already severely stressed from being stuck in warmer waters. Those lakes probably should not have stripers in the first place. That's why they make Hybrids. I mean, come on, a reference to Santee Cooper. How deep is that lake and what kind of thermocline do the have? You can't compare these lakes to Lanier. 

As far as Reggie Weaver is concerned, I've sat through a few of his speeches to our striper clubs also. I spent a few years in striper clubs too. This topic is not new. Reggie also told us that stocking Hybrids could hurt the Spotted Bass populations in Lanier, but could provide no evidence of this so we just did without Hybrids on the word of one person. Nothing in writing, no formal study, just words. To me, that's shooting from the hip and that doesn't bode well with me. Especially when it's my tax dollars at work.

Brad, like I said before, this is how laws get changed and I commend you for making us aware of this and stepping up to the challenge to make a change. 

I can tell you all this much to be true. If I put my limit in the cooler and took them home, that fish has zero chance of survival. ZERO, NADA, they are dead. If I release that fish, he has a chance of survival. If he swims away he has a chance at survival. I repeat, HE HAS A CHANCE FOR SURVIVAL. No one can argue that with any evidence on Lanier. As a true conservationist, I refuse to put my stripers in a cooler just because someone says they will die if I don't. That makes no sense and it is contradictory to my legal right as a fishermen. I practice C&R 12 months out of the year but I am not opposed to someone keeping whatever is within the letter of the law. If I ever have a floater, it will be picked up and put to good use. To the contrary, that is your right. When and if these laws are changed, I'll be the first to respect them.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

> Jim, if you know of any groups that want to close or limit striper fishing on Lanier in the summer, please let me know - I would like to discuss it with them. It would be a very bad idea, for many reasons.



What's your take on it Mike? If this is percieved as a problem, what is the fix? As the President of the Coalition, does the Coalition have a take on this? A recommendation?


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## Grey Ghost (Jul 7, 2012)

Somebody is missing the point of the original post. If you catch and keep or release (in the summer) your limit of two fish over 22" they will most likely die either way. If you keep fishing and catch another ten fish they too will most likely die. Now you probably killed a dozen fish. And so on.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

OK, that's a wrap with this one. Mike, if you can find any data on Lanier, be sure to pass it along to me. thanks.


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## Mikemad (Jul 7, 2012)

Jim you are spot on with your last two paragraphs of your 9:25 am post.  A fish in a cooler is dead fish, with NO chance for survial. 

I wasn't trying to insult your intelligence, if it came across that way, I apologize.  

Not everyone knows the "rules" when it comes to assisting WRD, I  wanted to clarify that for people who didn't know.   

The study from Martin and to a lesser extent the study from Murray are more applicable to Lanier.  A lot depends on the water quality as well, if the fish are highly stressed to begin with then they are more likely to die.   I agree that Santee Cooper has little to no similarity to Lanier.

Jim, I will call Reggie and see if he has that study data from whenever.   The LSBC's postion is to assist the WRD in anyway we can in gathering the data needed to help determine if summer time C & R mortality is a problem - only the anglers themselves can provide this data.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

If I am fishing one of the lakes in the studies, I'll be aware of those mortality rates, but they have nothing to do with Lanier.

If there is a specific study on a deep water lake where a thermocline (in the report) was available for the fish to go once caught, once again, post it up, (preferable not in "Word" format). I'd even like to read the Murray report. Was that post fish kill or pre fish kill? Are any reports recent with specific data?


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## Dirk (Jul 7, 2012)

I spoke with Reggie Weaver (who is the most experienced biologist on lake Lanier PERIOD) several times many years ago and I am pretty sure he told me around 75% mortality as well. It was soon after that I bought a Canoe, Kayaks, and then Jetboat and am cold rivers only from June-Sept for Stripers. It seems like a lifetime ago but I actually had some extra money after I paid the bills 8-10 years ago, but that's an even more depressing subject... 

BUT: I try hard now-a-days not to criticize the guys that catch lots of summertime stripes in the lakes though, as it is LOTS OF FUN to catch stripers anywhere, anytime and that should be what fishing is about. Stripers get from 5-10 lbs in just a few years and the stock rate that the DNR uses on Lanier takes into account that many will be killed in the summer I would guess. Most the summertime stripers caught on the lower lake are in the 5-10 lb range. I think they stocked extra heavy last year, over 600,000 fingerlings if I am remembering right and if most of those survive to get to 2-3 lbs (at which humans are probably their main predator) then we should have good numbers in the next few years even if many thousands die this summer. In fact there is a limited amount of Stripers that ANY lake can support and if zero stripers ever died and the DNR kept stocking hundreds of thousands a year it would be BAD for the lake as they would decimate the forage base which would cause them to start starving, getting skinny and never reach the size I like (20+ lbers  ) as well as hurt the Spotted bass and other predator fish populations. EVERY biologist I have ever talked to agreed on that sentence above.

Some of the striper fishermen and guides have gotten good at catching the bigger 20+ lbers in the summer too though, and that does hurt a little to see the big ones and know they will probably die even when released in the summer, I admit. BUT survival of the fittest (and smartest), and the smart ones have enough sense to run up the rivers to cold water and let me catch and release them...   

Very interesting and sometimes touchy subject and I hope everyone is able to stay civil and respectful of others opinions on their remarks.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 7, 2012)

Nothing but love on my end. I've known most of you guys a long time and although we disagree at times, it's good to get other folks perspective on things and I truely respect that. That was well put Dirk.


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## brett30030 (Jul 7, 2012)

What some people are not considering is the summertime striper fishing on Lanier in particular is an economic engine. People spend money on bait, gas, food, trucks, clothes, boats, lodging, etc for a days fishing. Businesses and jobs would disappear without the summer fishery. These fish are stocked for the enjoyment of the general public, that some people choose to enjoy these fish during the summer time should be part of the GADNR management plan for the fishery stocking rates.

These mortality rates are nothing new, this information has been around for years. If you look at the data it is pretty convincing that the mortality is very high in the summer. So long as that is factored into the GADNR stocking plan, then i don't see the issue any more than realizing that x% of fry stocked are going to be eaten by other predators or die due to too high or low temperatures when stocked.


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## blw (Jul 7, 2012)

Well said Jim. Those in the cooler have zero percent chance of survival !  At least the ones released have a chance. They don't stock 20 lbers. guys.It would be great if those bigger fish get that chance.


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## Darkhorse15 (Jul 7, 2012)

BradMyers said:


> This has become a passion of mine. Making sure striper anglers are aware of the damage catch & release does when water temps get above 76 degrees. I became aware of this after a 5 day trip to Lanier we caught over 50 fish on that trip and after getting my limit for cooking the guide would release the fish by shooting in down into the water to try to get the fish past the 26' warm water column (torpedoing), I ask why and he said it gave the fish a better chance at survival. Wrong. I came back home and started researching this and felt horrible realizing how many fish went to waste
> 
> Many states have conducted studies on this subject and the facts are there. The lactic acid build up during a stripers fight in warm water conditions is almost certain death and in most cases the fish goes to the bottom and dies, even though the fish swims off it can be misleading giving the angler a false sense of survival. From June-Sept on Santee Cooper the striper fishing is closed for this reason. Other states or impoundments have put restrictions on C&R during the warmer months.
> 
> ...



I'd be interested in hearing more about this study done like how it was conducted, how the fish were tracked, how long they were handled, what kind of tags were used, etc.

100% mortality rate seems very implausible and the techniques used during the study could affect the outcome.

Either way, this is a GREAT topic of discussion.  So many fisherman catch fish, grab them, hold them out of the water for several minutes and then just chunk them back in just assuming that they will live.


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## BradMyers (Jul 7, 2012)

Darkhorse15 said:


> I'd be interested in hearing more about this study done like how it was conducted, how the fish were tracked, how long they were handled, what kind of tags were used, etc.
> 
> 100% mortality rate seems very implausible and the techniques used during the study could affect the outcome.
> 
> Either way, this is a GREAT topic of discussion.  So many fisherman catch fish, grab them, hold them out of the water for several minutes and then just chunk them back in just assuming that they will live.



Electronic tracking was done on the 5 fish studied in this report. Utmost care in handling and tagging was done according to Dr Sammons. The link to the study is posted on this thread.

You are right about the handling of fish as well, it's another stresser. The less time on the line, proper handling and the less time out of the water all better the fishes chances as Dr Sammons pointed out. However it did not jump the percentage much.


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## henryc (Jul 7, 2012)

brett30030 said:


> What some people are not considering is the summertime striper fishing on Lanier in particular is an economic engine. People spend money on bait, gas, food, trucks, clothes, boats, lodging, etc for a days fishing. Businesses and jobs would disappear without the summer fishery. These fish are stocked for the enjoyment of the general public, that some people choose to enjoy these fish during the summer time should be part of the GADNR management plan for the fishery stocking rates.
> 
> These mortality rates are nothing new, this information has been around for years. If you look at the data it is pretty convincing that the mortality is very high in the summer. So long as that is factored into the GADNR stocking plan, then i don't see the issue any more than realizing that x% of fry stocked are going to be eaten by other predators or die due to too high or low temperatures when stocked.



Have these folks that are concerned about their economic engine figured out what is going to happen as folks catch fewer and fewer fish and start planning their outings at other lakes like Hartwell or Allatoona? This is happening already (as I have spoken with other Lanier guides about this). With the poor stocking #'s for this year's fry you can bet that the fishing will probably get tougher before it gets better. Hope all these summertime striper fishermen like a challenging fishery from Oct to May...
I lived through the stinko Atlantic coast fishery during the early eighties that caused the legislatures to shut it down completely for a few years. Everyone said it would get better and lots of folks made a living off of that fishery too. From my point of view my concern is not for the economics of the folks who have made the choice to make a living from this fishery but rather what is best for the fishery itself. 
By the way...I do not care how many fish die due to summer mortality if the DNR could put in 600k of fry every year. That is where our license and tax $ are supposed to go. It just seems that will not be the case.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm just reading this thread as a striper fisherman first and foremost..... A couple things I have a problem with: 1. Any study with such a small sample(5 fish) can not be deemed statistically valid. I would aproximate that even with a study sample of 100 fish, the results would still be off. So what I'm saying is that I don't think its possible for us to afford a large enough study to actually get accurate data. 2. Someone said that a fish c&r'ed was "wasted" and might as well be put in the cooler. Wasted is certainly not the right word to use here. The monies that go toward getting that fish on the end of your line from its inception are at that point moot. Releasing it for even a 1% chance of someone else's pleasure is purely "profit"! JMHO


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## BradMyers (Jul 7, 2012)

Mikemad said:


> I personally am very glad this subject has been raised.  The studies are out there and there is very little to no disagreement on the numbers.  The percentage of fish that will die is VERY high - between 73 to 100 percent.
> 
> WRD does factor in angler mortality when determining stocking rates, regulations, etc.  WRD attempts to factor in how many fish are caught in the summer time and count a high percentage of those summer time stripers as dead fish.
> 
> ...



Mike you nailed it with the highlighted paragraph. That was the conclusion of the conversation with Dr Sammons, the first step in this summer C&R mortality problem for stripers is education on the subject. The next is for the angler to make an educated decision how they wish to fish. Basically it's better to police our own decisions than to have an agency do so for us & before it ever becomes a have too situation.


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 7, 2012)

BradMyers said:


> Mike you nailed it with the highlighted paragraph. That was the conclusion of the conversation with Dr Sammons, the first step in this summer C&R mortality problem for stripers is education on the subject. The next is for the angler to make an educated decision how they wish to fish. Basically it's better to police our own decisions than to have an agency do so for us & before it ever becomes a have too situation.



Yep this is the point of the whole conversation. The fish are indeed put in for us to take within the limits every time we go to the lake. The fact is that many striper fisherman have no idea about the mortality situation and hopefully someone reading this will come away a more informed angler.


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## Hyper Sniper (Jul 7, 2012)

I hate too say it, but it's a shame that the agencies can't afford studies, or upping the stocking rates and such. Knowing that Lake Lanier is one of the highest traffic and fished lakes in the entire country. I am not sure why we have to go to Hartwell, and so forth to catch fish. They have both Hybrids and Stripes and is fished far less than Lanier. So they don't die in Hartwell? Heck! you can't even eat them out of that lake.

There is a much bigger problem going on here, 1 out of 7 people in this country are on wellfare. This number is far more obscene than the mortality of fish killed. (Don't get me started) This is what we can't afford and probably won't be fishing anyways, soon if this crap doesn't quit.

So I am with Todd, with all the wasted govt. spending, we do a study with 5 fish? how ludicrous. The state should have had this figured out, and stocking rates should be much higher on the most used lake in the United states. Instead we have to hear about cutbacks and excuses why we have the poorest stocking rate ever in this lake. Yet we wast more and more each year to a rediculous govt. wast. Sorry I understand every bit of this topic, but will never understand why we as Americans ignore the real problems.

Unless alot of things change and change quick, we won't even have a job or freedom in the future. I Can't take this subject anymore, lets just open the boarders and serve orange juice as they all come in. Then you will not have to worry if we have fish or not.


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## BradMyers (Jul 7, 2012)

Hyper Sniper said:


> I hate too say it, but it's a shame that the agencies can't afford studies, or upping the stocking rates and such. Knowing that Lake Lanier is one of the highest traffic and fished lakes in the entire country. I am not sure why we have to go to Hartwell, and so forth to catch fish. They have both Hybrids and Stripes and is fished far less than Lanier. So they don't die in Hartwell? Heck! you can't even eat them out of that lake.
> 
> There is a much bigger problem going on here, 1 out of 7 people in this country are on wellfare. This number is far more obscene than the mortality of fish killed. (Don't get me started) This is what we can't afford and probably won't be fishing anyways, soon if this crap doesn't quit.
> 
> ...



HS, I can understand your frustration but I’m pretty sure you’re off the mark on some of your statements and if we can, it would be great to avoid political comments as not to de-rail the main topic. 

If I’m not mistaking the funding was done on the mentioned study with help, if not all by the Alabama power folk.

There seem to be many ways of sampling for these studies and some reports point to the need for a more formatted sampling structure across the states. As far as there only being 5 fish in this particular study, no worries. There are plenty of other studies on this subject over a longer time frame and more fish in the sampling. Just do a web search on striped bass C&R summer mortality.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 8, 2012)

Ok Brad, I took your advise and did a web search. The first report I saw was based on the Hudson River, where the mortality rate was more like 15%. Once again I think the sample population was really too small to be statistically accurate(159 fish). The biggest factor seemed to be J-hook or Circle hook. So can you suggest some reports where you got your information, so I don't have to read every thing on the web.
 I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't rely on any of these studies to the point of putting every fishing guide on Lanier out of work during the time of the year that they probably work the most. I think anyone who has taken a stats course in college could share a story of how the numbers just didn't really tell the truth in one study or another. To get anywhere close to an accurate study I would guess atleast 3-5% of the population would have to be included. And I think we could all agree that would not be prudent.
 This topic has certainly got me thinking tonight, the closest thing I know of to relate this to is the wolf controversy in Yellowstone. The biologist tell you we need them, ranchers and most locals can't stand them. I'm a snowmobile guide in YNP and I try to avoid getting too deep into the subject on my tour, but if people keep asking I tell them this. "You will never meet a wolf-biologist who will tell you we don't need them, because if the wolf is gone so is his job". I just get the feeling that the same would be true with a fisheries biologist. If the population was fine would he be needed.


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## Hyper Sniper (Jul 8, 2012)

What is wrong with your opening post is that 100% mortality in all water over 76% period. I have read these studies sir and realize the mortality can be high this time of year. I think is a good thing for people to be armed with the knowledge. What I don't care for is propaganda, that says you catch a fish in the summer he's dead. This statement is 100% dead wrong.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 8, 2012)

Guys, here on this thread there has been a lot of chatter and arbitrary guesswork from several authorities on the subject. None of which hold a degree in anything related to the subject. We called them "Sea Lawyers" in the Navy. Several folks have made statements like:
Quote:


> Pretty much any striper over 6 to 8 lbs that is caught will be dead within 2 days.



I say prove it. If you make a statement, especially if you are on the board of a group that advises or provides info to the DNR for stocking purposes with my tax dollars you better be able to back up what you say. Personally, I have a hard time believing it myself, so prove it! That's all I ask.

If you can't, I suggest maybe saying something like "in my opinion" or "I heard" or "I read somewhere" instead of making blanket baseless statements like you are some kind of authority on the subject.

The problem I have with this is that it deters folks from fishing in the summer months. It's nothing more than a scare tactic and a big guilt trip to me. This is my tax dollars and my license purchase that helped pay for that fish. As long as I am fishing within my legal rights, I shouldn't have to feel bad about catching a fish in the summer because a certain group references a certain circumstance from a far away place and generalizes it down to me. I don't believe this is a "one size fits all" circumstance as far as these studies go.

We have a very fragile fishing system here. This is the livelyhood of guides who have families, tackle shops and bait stores that depend on this system. It works and has worked for years. In my opinion, it will continue to work as long as we continue to be good stewards of the program and police ourselves. It scares me when entities start throwing around questionable statements of doom and gloom. That's how laws get changed, and sometimes it can hurt families that depend on this system for their livelyhood. It's no secret that our Government has stepped into places it has no business and the recreational fishing industry is not immuned. These folks like to do what they think is best for us, while more and more folks go on government assistance in the wake of these changes.


I appreciate the info on those lakes and the good Dr.'s studies. I will keep that in mind when and if I fish those lakes in question. Sounds to me like poor planning with the striper stocking over there. Maybe those lakes should have Hybrids instead of a less heat tolerant striper in the first place.


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## Ahab (Jul 8, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:
			
		

> It scares me when entities start throwing around questionable statements of doom and gloom. That's how laws get changed, and sometimes it can hurt families that depend on this system for their livelyhood. It's no secret that our Government has stepped into places it has no business and the recreational fishing industry is not immuned. These folks like to do what they think is best for us, while more and more folks go on government assistance in the wake of these changes.



X2. It feels like there are those in power just looking for new areas to regulate. Don't get me wrong, I am all for conserving natural resources and places like the Savannah River needed such laws. But the thought of regulation on a put-&-take fishery seems to defeat the purpose of the fishery all together.  Just my 2 cents.


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## Tom Blackburn (Jul 8, 2012)

*Information*

During the summer and early fall of 2011 the state biologists responsible for managing the fish in Lanier made four separate presentations regarding Striped Bass.  Included in the presentation was a pie chart labeled "The Fate of the Striped Bass".  You may easily verify the following data by visiting the home page of the Oakwood Striper Club.  Back to the chart - on an annual basis, 48 percent of the fish will survive; harvest mortality is 17%; natural mortality is 33%; AND Catch & Release mortality is 2%.  Senior biologist, Anthony Rabern, stated that he would be "concerned" if the harvest mortality rate approached 30 to 35 percent.  For your use and information, Mr. Rabern's entire presentation is available at the aforementioned web site. 

For those of you who prefer to throw some Lanier Striped Bass in your cooler, I would suggest that you also veryify this information which can be found in the guidelines published by the Georgia Environmental Protection Agency.  The advisory for Lanier's Striped Bass exceeding 16 inches is one meal per week.  Women considering pregnancy, women who are pregnant, and children under the age of six should further reduce the portion of Striped Bass taken from Lanier.  The primary contaminate is Mercury.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 8, 2012)

BradMyers said:


> This has become a passion of mine. Making sure striper anglers are aware of the damage catch & release does when water temps get above 76 degrees. I became aware of this after a 5 day trip to Lanier we caught over 50 fish on that trip and after getting my limit for cooking the guide would release the fish by shooting in down into the water to try to get the fish past the 26' warm water column (torpedoing), I ask why and he said it gave the fish a better chance at survival. Wrong. I came back home and started researching this and felt horrible realizing how many fish went to waste
> 
> Many states have conducted studies on this subject and the facts are there. The lactic acid build up during a stripers fight in warm water conditions is almost certain death and in most cases the fish goes to the bottom and dies, even though the fish swims off it can be misleading giving the angler a false sense of survival. From June-Sept on Santee Cooper the striper fishing is closed for this reason. Other states or impoundments have put restrictions on C&R during the warmer months.
> 
> ...


 
Excellent post sir!


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## mtr3333 (Jul 8, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> If anyone has any concrete data on Lake Lanier and summer mortality rates that does not include hear say from 5-10 years ago from a buddy that knew someone or a study that was conducted in another state on another lake, which is lacking in the condition of the fish, size, depth, location were taken I'd like to see it. Post it up. If you know for a fact that these stripers are definitely dead here on Lanier, prove it!
> 
> The fact is, all folks can do is try and convince people of a baseless point of view. It's very convienent to say the stripers go to the bottom and die since there is not much evidence of floaters to reference. Well, show me pictures of dead fish on the bottom. Lets see it. Surely with the technology today, the DNR and all that money that is donated to them, someone could come up with a study including concrete data on Lake Lanier.
> 
> ...


 
Here's what someone else said:

http://www.arkansasstripers.com/striped-bass-dissolved-oxygen-hypoxia.htm



> In addition, this is a very popular time of the year for striped bass fishing and mortality is also caused by the additional stress with the fish having been caught. Stripers caught during this time of the year should not be released.


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## shakey gizzard (Jul 8, 2012)

Yeah! I'm all for closing it down for the summer months!


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 8, 2012)

> During the summer and early fall of 2011 the state biologists responsible for managing the fish in Lanier made four separate presentations regarding Striped Bass. Included in the presentation was a pie chart labeled "The Fate of the Striped Bass". You may easily verify the following data by visiting the home page of the Oakwood Striper Club. Back to the chart - on an annual basis, 48 percent of the fish will survive; harvest mortality is 17%; natural mortality is 33%; AND Catch & Release mortality is 2%. Senior biologist, Anthony Rabern, stated that he would be "concerned" if the harvest mortality rate approached 30 to 35 percent. For your use and information, Mr. Rabern's entire presentation is available at the aforementioned web site.
> 
> For those of you who prefer to throw some Lanier Striped Bass in your cooler, I would suggest that you also veryify this information which can be found in the guidelines published by the Georgia Environmental Protection Agency. The advisory for Lanier's Striped Bass exceeding 16 inches is one meal per week. Women considering pregnancy, women who are pregnant, and children under the age of six should further reduce the portion of Striped Bass taken from Lanier. The primary contaminate is Mercury.



Tom, thanks for posting something tangible that we can all read. This may shed a little light on the subject as it pertains to Lake Lanier, in Georgia on a deep water resevoir. That 2% C&R figure tells me we are probably getting our panties all bunched up over a insignificant number of stripers affecting the overall mortality rates.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 8, 2012)

shakey gizzard said:


> Yeah! I'm all for closing it down for the summer months!


 No PWC's and vessels over 23 feet in length!


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 8, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> Tom, thanks for posting something tangible that we can all read. This may shed a little light on the subject as it pertains to Lake Lanier, in Georgia on a deep water resevoir. That 2% C&R figure tells me we are probably getting our panties all bunched up over a insignificant number of stripers affecting the overall mortality rates.




Ya'll are making this just about Lanier. There are many other lakes that people on here fish that contain stripers that do not have the conditions (deeper water) mentioned in you posts. 

Like has been said before, this is just a public service announcement just to give folks a heads up that may not have even known that this concept of post fight mortality even existed.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 8, 2012)

Dustin Pate said:


> Ya'll are making this just about Lanier. There are many other lakes that people on here fish that contain stripers that do not have the conditions (deeper water) mentioned in you posts.
> 
> Like has been said before, this is just a public service announcement just to give folks a heads up that may not have even known that this concept of post fight mortality even existed.


 There was a thread posted last year about Oconee. And they weren't post fight mortality. It was just low DOC hot water.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 8, 2012)

> Ya'll are making this just about Lanier. There are many other lakes that people on here fish that contain stripers that do not have the conditions (deeper water) mentioned in you posts.



Absolutely Dustin. In reference to the lakes that the studies were done on, I have no problem with keeping a striper if I want and I am cognizant of the issues. Not to get off topic but lakes like WP really really need a Hybrid stocking program like 10+ years ago. I can remember running and gunning big schools of Hybee's at WP way back when. Now, since the change to stripers, there are very few schools busting like with the Hybee's in years past. I think there are some lakes that would be better off with a hearty hybrid population rather than a weak and fragile striper population.


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## BradMyers (Jul 8, 2012)

Tom Blackburn said:


> Back to the chart - on an annual basis, 48 percent of the fish will survive; harvest mortality is 17%; natural mortality is 33%; AND Catch & Release mortality is 2%.  Senior biologist, Anthony Rabern, stated that he would be "concerned" if the harvest mortality rate approached 30 to 35 percent.  For your use and information, Mr. Rabern's entire presentation is available at the aforementioned web site.
> 
> For those of you who prefer to throw some Lanier Striped Bass in your cooler, I would suggest that you also veryify this information which can be found in the guidelines published by the Georgia Environmental Protection Agency.  The advisory for Lanier's Striped Bass exceeding 16 inches is one meal per week.  Women considering pregnancy, women who are pregnant, and children under the age of six should further reduce the portion of Striped Bass taken from Lanier.  The primary contaminate is Mercury.



Tom great point on contaminants, is sad for sure what has been done to our water resources.

As far as the chart and the numbers, I have had this same conversation with Mr. Raburn. The key is what I have highlighted above, those numbers are on an *annual basis*. The 2% is not just C&R those numbers also include fingerling mortality. Those numbers DO NOT reflect C&R mortality for just the months of June - Sept. To the best of my knowledge the state has not published anything like such.


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## BradMyers (Jul 8, 2012)

Todd71673 said:


> Ok Brad, I took your advise and did a web search. The first report I saw was based on the Hudson River, where the mortality rate was more like 15%. Once again I think the sample population was really too small to be statistically accurate(159 fish). The biggest factor seemed to be J-hook or Circle hook. So can you suggest some reports where you got your information, so I don't have to read every thing on the web.
> I guess the point I was trying to make is that you can't rely on any of these studies to the point of putting every fishing guide on Lanier out of work during the time of the year that they probably work the most. I think anyone who has taken a stats course in college could share a story of how the numbers just didn't really tell the truth in one study or another. To get anywhere close to an accurate study I would guess atleast 3-5% of the population would have to be included. And I think we could all agree that would not be prudent.
> This topic has certainly got me thinking tonight, the closest thing I know of to relate this to is the wolf controversy in Yellowstone. The biologist tell you we need them, ranchers and most locals can't stand them. I'm a snowmobile guide in YNP and I try to avoid getting too deep into the subject on my tour, but if people keep asking I tell them this. "You will never meet a wolf-biologist who will tell you we don't need them, because if the wolf is gone so is his job". I just get the feeling that the same would be true with a fisheries biologist. If the population was fine would he be needed.



Todd, the deep gut hooking mortality studies are another good tool striper anglers should use. That's why I started using circle hooks over 20 years ago.

As far as web searching, you are right it takes some time consuming pecking. I'll make a deal with ya I'll dig up some of these links, but could you PLEASE show me where I have ever mentioned a guide other than my buddy that I was fishing with when I became aware of this subject. Or where I have suggested putting one out of work? 

The correlation between wolves and stripes is good, as we can tell people are passionate about these subjects.


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## brett30030 (Jul 8, 2012)

BradMyers said:


> The 2% is not just C&R those numbers also include fingerling mortality. Those numbers DO NOT reflect C&R mortality for just the months of June - Sept. To the best of my knowledge the state has not published anything like such.



You are not correct. This information is directly from the DNR. C&R mortality does not include fingerling mortality (unless people are catching and releasing fingerlings). Personally i disagree that the C&R mortality rate is 2%, but this is directly from the state!!!!! Fingerling survival has to be much lower than 98%.


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## BradMyers (Jul 8, 2012)

brett30030 said:


> You are not correct. This information is directly from the DNR. C&R mortality does not include fingerling mortality (unless people are catching and releasing fingerlings). Personally i disagree that the C&R mortality rate is 2%, but this is directly from the state!!!!! Fingerling survival has to be much lower than 98%.



 Brett, thanks for the correction. I remember Anthony saying the numbers did include other factors on the report and I plainly remember him saying these were annual numbers and not numbers from the months I was asking about. We did discuss fingerlings as well and I guess got mixed up in all I was trying to take in. Probably still in shock from the 2% figure because that doesn’t sound right to me either. As you know this thread is about striper mortality during the months of June-Sept, not an annual report on collective mortality data and it’s not just about Lanier.


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## brett30030 (Jul 8, 2012)

Your original post was specific to Lanier and your experience there. As long as the DNR is calculating summer mortality into their management plan for Lanier, then it is a moot issue on Lanier. I do not disagree that summer mortality is extremely high, but stripers are manufactured for the use of the fishing public, we are dealing with a factor that can me manipulated by the state producing more fish according to fishing pressure. The critical component is that that state has a good measuring stick for the harvest/mortality rate of anglers. The LSBC has created an online angler survey to provide the DNR with this data to help ensure that the state is receiving that information. Did you fill out the angler survey from your trip? If not, your post here has done nothing to educate the DNR on their management of the striper fishery on Lanier.

I wonder how some the folks that fish the summertime cold water striper fisheries would feel if they had 20 boats on their spots the next time they went there on a Saturday in July. The Lanier fishery takes pressure off of these areas by allowing people to still catch striper during the summertime. If you are so concerned about the striper on Lanier, share those locations so that you can have plenty of  company next weekend vs letting folks sweat it out on Lanier next weekend.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 8, 2012)

Didn't mean to infer that you said such a thing, Brad. As I said that was my point that I was making. What I was alluding to is the possible outcome of spreading a scary number like 100% mortality out to the un-knowing public who might believe everything they hear or read. Then decide to donate time or money to a cause of protecting these fish which could lead to restrictions on all fisherman. Thats why I'm jumping on ya


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 9, 2012)

> As you know this thread is about striper mortality during the months of June-Sept, not an annual report on collective mortality data and it’s not just about Lanier.



Sounds like you are petty good at reading reports. And as you know Brad, the references you made to those studies have nothing to do with Lake Lanier period. Not once was it mentioned in the reports I read that you are referencing. Making up numbers like 100% death rate for stripers from June to Sept on Lake Lanier is nothing more than a scare tactic and a guilt trip. Why don't we just warn folks about the lakes in the studies and stop generalizing it to every striper lake in the south. That's how the little "Sea Lawyers" get their information to pass along.

So what you are saying, is all these posts and pictures and videos from myself and the guides and folks just out there fishing are steady killing stripers. Every one dead. No floaters to reference, just dead and sunk to Davy Jones locker. Na dude, that don't fly with me.

I want to say something about floaters also. Someone mentioned that dead stripers don't float. We see them every year on Lanier. I also had the terrible experience of witnessing a big striper kill in progress up in Tn some years ago. Apparently, the man made oxygen supply to thousands of stripers at the dam of this lake was cut off. I don't remember if it was a budget problem or a faulty 02 pump, but a whole population of stripers over about 6lbs wiped out. I drove my boat down to the dam to see for myself. I saw hundreds of larger stripers dead and floating. Some still alive and suffering from being choked out. Some over 20lbs swimming around in small circles, dying. Watching hundreds of the fish that you love dying and there is nothing you can do for them but watch them die is quite a punch in the gut. Fortunately that lake had a healthy Hybrid population to fall back on, unlike Lanier. But that goes to show you how fragile our striper systems can be. That die off was caused by the flip of a switch. 

And fisheries can be shut down with the stoke of a pen. Whether it's a faulty guage or some activist group that catches wind that we are steady killing stripers over here in June throught Sept., stocked fish or not, it can all change in a heartbeat.

For all that know me, know I am very passionate and protective of our fishery, especially here on Lanier since it is my home lake. I also know how fragile our fisheries can be. Let's try and use some common sense when throwing out info on a public forum.


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## SeeinStripes (Jul 9, 2012)

*Released striper die in hot water*

I don't need a WRD study to know, after nearly 20 years of striper fishing and obtaining a degree in fisheries science, that bigger striper (over 10 lbs) WILL die, even in the best water conditions, if the temperature is too high.  Even in highly oxygenated, shallow (less than 5') rivers these big fish will give out no matter what precautions you try to take to prevent it.

I have read 100% of this thread and must say, lots of great information has been shared.  I will try to shed some light on some of the points left in the shadows.

Jim, you are just charged up because it struck a nerve with you that you're killing almost every fish you catch.  It's okay, it's perfectly legal.  Carry on. 

Most dead striper DO SINK.

This has become more of a moral issue than a scientific or stocking logistic issue.  The DNR will continue to replace the missing fish and the fishery will go on.  Simple math will tell you fewer fish will be harder to catch.  In my experience on  Lanier, there is not a shortage of forage, therefore the lake could potentially support a higher population of striper than what's currently in it.  Killing fish just because you "like to catch them in the summer, and can" is your choice.  Every angler has the cognitive capacity to decide to waste, or conserve.  Personally, I choose to conserve.

Many uninformed statements have been made out of emotion on this thread.  There are lots of places to catch striper where they can be released.  There are hybrid which can be released at almost any time.  Spotted bass are fun to catch as well as catfish.  If folks took the conservative road, and education prevailed, I'm sure clients would understand and appreciate a guide's integrity when he told them it's best to fish for something else during the hot months.  Likewise, if these folks knew almost every fish they thought they were releasing with the intent for it to live another day actually died, they might be upset and feel misguided by their mentor.

The guides, shop owners and senior striper fishermen have a responsibility to inform up and coming anglers about the proper way to manage the fishery.

Let's look at some facts:
In a shallow river, over years of guiding and releasing trophy striper, I have concluded the bigger fish will begin dying at 74-75 degrees.  I took morning guided trips and informed my clients when the water temp hit 74, the trip was over.  For the most part, they appreciated the straightforward honesty aspect of my trips.

Factors that kill striper:
1) High water temperature
2) Size of the fish, larger fish are heat intolerant
3) Depth of the fish at time of catch, sub 30' is hard
4) Stress level of fish before being caught
5) Length of fight on the line and handling time before release (lactic acid acidosis kills fish)
6) Handling technique: NETS KILL FISH, instead use your hand, a lipper like a boga, or a sling-type device

All of this information is review for most of us, and is readily available online or in fishing regulations.

As far as studies done:  Do we really need a study on EVERY SINGLE LAKE with striper stocked in it to know post release mortality in the summer means almost certain death?  Lanier is NOT SPECIAL in this regard.  There have been many restrictions and regulations implemented, some as extreme as to prohibit fishing for them in the summer in an attempt to maintain a good striper population in a lake.  Read Cherokee Lake in TN.  The TWRA cracked down on excessive catch release and kill in the area in front of the dam and have that 1,100 acre area closed from 7/15-9/15.  Summer striper are already stressed out and are susceptible to the climate and whatever it may bring.  In 2003, Norris Lake in TN lost virtually all of its striper over 10 lbs due to climactic factors.  Norris is very similar to Lanier, and actually has deeper, higher quality water.  Tims Ford in TN suffered a fish kill in the 90's.  I reference these kills to equate how easy it is to kill these fish in the summer, even if handled optimally.

Best management practices:
1) catch fish shallow, 
2) use circle hooks, 
3) use heavy line and minimize fight time,
4) handle fish properly and gently, 
5) release quickly

In summary: Understand the fish you are trying to catch.  If you want successful release, don't fish lakes in the summer and don't fish deep.  Stupid people say stupid things, don't listen to them.  You make your own decisions, and I hope you choose to conserve rather than kill.

References: 
Norris fish kill Read the President's letter
Cherokee No Fish Zone
Lactic Acid AcidosisRead the 'Be Prepared' paragraph.  It's not a study, but good info.


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## John2 (Jul 9, 2012)

Shawn,

I am glad you took some time to respond to this thread.  Very good info!

Conclusion:   Warm water and exhausted stripers do not mix well.


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## BradMyers (Jul 9, 2012)

brett30030 said:


> The LSBC has created an online angler survey to provide the DNR with this data to help ensure that the state is receiving that information. Did you fill out the angler survey from your trip?


Nope, the survey was not around back in 2010 when I last fished Lanier but I sure will. It's too bad there are not more of these out there for other bodies of water in this state. BTW, back when the survey was posted I sent an invite to you or anyone else from LSBC to come on my show via the phone to tell my listeners about the survey & the fine work y'all are doing up there. The offer still stands.



Todd71673 said:


> Didn't mean to infer that you said such a thing, Brad. As I said that was my point that I was making. What I was alluding to is the possible outcome of spreading a scary number like 100% mortality out to the un-knowing public who might believe everything they hear or read. Then decide to donate time or money to a cause of protecting these fish which could lead to restrictions on all fisherman. Thats why I'm jumping on ya


Todd I don't feel you're jumping on me, this is just some friendly conversation on something we're all passionate about. I don't know of any group trying to raise money to protect stripers or trying to shut anyone down from fishing. It would be nice to raise money to have a study done on Lanier for the months of June-Sept., so folk like Jim could wrap their brain around it and get off the location rant.


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## jighead1 (Jul 9, 2012)

I also don't agree with 100%, the stripers are small when stocked and we have enough fish to keep the guides here fishing year round, we have plenty of fish here and big fish, sure lots of fish don't make it. Maybe we should not have tournments during the spawn for bass but they do and that hurts the bass, but so is life. They could get good info if guides could tag fish and see just how many are recaught. I know when the stripers were first put in the lake they would die after they were caught and they floated, and bassfishermen hated them beacuse they would eat anything and every thing.There is too much money spent on striper fishing here  for changes to be made, money spent on bait,gas,food and the list goes on.If 100% died we would only catch small ones and that is not the case.Just my 2 cents.


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## BradMyers (Jul 9, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> Sounds like you are petty good at reading reports. And as you know Brad, the references you made to those studies have nothing to do with Lake Lanier period. Not once was it mentioned in the reports I read that you are referencing. Making up numbers like 100% death rate for stripers from June to Sept on Lake Lanier is nothing more than a scare tactic and a guilt trip. Why don't we just warn folks about the lakes in the studies and stop generalizing it to every striper lake in the south. That's how the little "Sea Lawyers" get their information to pass along.
> 
> And fisheries can be shut down with the stoke of a pen. Whether it's a faulty guage or some activist group that catches wind that we are steady killing stripers over here in June throught Sept., stocked fish or not, it can all change in a heartbeat.
> 
> For all that know me, know I am very passionate and protective of our fishery, especially here on Lanier since it is my home lake. I also know how fragile our fisheries can be. Let's try and use some common sense when throwing out info on a public forum.



Dude REALLY? Let me break this down for you: 

Yes I have been reading reports, everything I could find concerning this subject for the last 2 years before making this thread because I knew I would catch some heat. I figured the opposition would come from guides but to my surprise they have been the most supportive, at least the ones I have talked to about this. You don't guide do you?

As far as the studies I have mentioned, nope they weren’t from Lanier or Oconee or Juliett or any other body in GA. Why, because this state as never conducted one. I guess if a guy drowns in an Alabama lake you would need proof that a guy drowned in Lanier before you would believe that you are at risk of drowning on Lanier without proper flotation.

“Making up numbers like 100% is nothing more than a scare tactic.” Oh come on. Now you are calling Dr Sammons a fisheries biologist with a degree a liar and his published report hogwash. Does your little sea lawyer have a degree in fisheries. There is a huge distinction between fabrication and facts. 

As far as fisheries and fishing methods being changed with the stroke of a pen. Well sir, it don’t even required a pen, just interpretation. I know first hand as it happened to me last year when WRD decided they didn’t want me or anyone else to use live minnows for bait below Morgan Falls dam.

Once again, this thread was started to create awareness for this problem, not to start a committee, petition or anything else.


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## fairweatherfisherman (Jul 9, 2012)

I fished a cool water area (temperature range from around 70 to 75 degrees depending on power generation and the weather) with a good friend for a number of years that held tremendous numbers of stripers.  As years passed and we became more proficient in catching, there was a very noticeable decline in the population of striper in that area the following year. Since that time in the early 2000s,  I fish that area infrequently - maybe once every couple of years.  

Up to that point I really loved catching those stripers, and I assumed that there was little mortality, since nearly all of the fish were hooked in the mouth and swam away upon release.  

After that huge drop-off in numbers, I came to believe that the reason there weren't 12 pounders in the river the following year, was because many of the 10 pounders we were catching and releasing were ultimately becoming turtle food.  I think a big part of it was the lack of sufficient forage up there and that even with the relatively cool water, those hungry fish that had been caught and released weren't making it through the summer.

I think we all need to decide for ourselves on this one.  I would say if you are unsure, that the most ethical fishing practice for striper fishing in the Summer is to catch your limit for the day and then go catch a bass for the rest of the day.


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## BradMyers (Jul 9, 2012)

John2 said:


> Shawn,
> 
> I am glad you took some time to respond to this thread.  Very good info!
> 
> Conclusion:   Warm water and exhausted stripers do not mix well.



X2 Thanks for your input Shawn.


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## fotoguy (Jul 9, 2012)

Awesome info from this post, thanks guys
Conserve my friends converve...


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## Mikemad (Jul 9, 2012)

That was a great post Shawn.  Well done.  

Jim you are right, I should have stated it was my opinion on the death rate of C&R fish on Lanier.  It was just my opinion, though it's a fairly informed opinion - I have been talking to fisheries biologists (from GA, TN and SC) for many years, spoken at lenght with Warren Turner, Ezell Cox, Tim Adrien and many other people who have researched the issue on their own.   

By no means do I recommend closing or limiting fishing on Lanier in anyway.  I agree %100 that WRD needs better data on the number of fish caught on Lanier during a typical summer.  

The best things that can come from this thread are  

1. Education 
2. Getting people to fill out the angler survey so WRD can get a better handle on the number of fish caught in the summer and a better "rough" idea of number of fish that might not survive their release.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 9, 2012)

> Jim, you are just charged up because it struck a nerve with you that you're killing almost every fish you catch. It's okay, it's perfectly legal. Carry on.



Thanks for your opinion and diagnosis Shawn. I respect your opinion and your 20 years of fishing experience, but it's just your opinion. As far as your diagnosis is concerned, your right, I was charged up over a lot of guess work from a lot of folks. 

I have experience in striper fishing too, alot more than 20 years. I don't claim to hold a degree in this topic but I have been doing this for over 30 adult years and have formed my own opinion. I still haven't seen any studies on Lanier, just more popular folks making more (somewhat educated) general statements and expressing their opinion on the subject. Sorry fellas, you still haven't convinced me. That 2% C&R motality rate makes this a moot point as far as Lanier, and I am concerned.

Brad, I'll continue to release my fish alive, as I have done for years and you kill yours in the Igloo cooler, it's still a free country bud. Just don't try and tell me what to do with mine. That's my business.

I apologize if I offended anyone in this thread. That was not my intent.


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## BradMyers (Jul 9, 2012)

Scout'nStripers said:


> Brad, I'll continue to release my fish alive, as I have done for years and you kill yours in the Igloo cooler, it's still a free country bud. Just don't try and tell me what to do with mine. That's my business.
> 
> I apologize if I offended anyone in this thread. That was not my intent.



Jim I haven't been offended by your take on the subject, I appreciate the feedback. As far as telling you what to do...well you corrected me at the beginning of this thread and I agreed, because that was not my intent. 

Though you are not convinced of the studies done else where, hopefully some of the people that have read this thread have learned something new & will take the time to learn about this and make a conscious educated decision when it comes to C&R for stripers during our hot months in the south.


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## puddlehunter (Jul 9, 2012)

Great info, as a non experienced striper fisherman but a guide of other species, I was glad to finally hear (shawn) that a responsible guide would inform his clients that the fish they release will more than likely die in warm water conditions.

As a fisherman that uses guide services, I personally would be pretty upset with a guide if I spent a hot August day catching and releasing big striper and then read later that I probably killed all those fish.  

All of the arguments for striper mortality in warm water make sense, and reading a little biology of the striped bass it makes even more sense.

To think that lake Lanier is so special that biology doesent apply to the striped bass in that lake sounds a little silly to me.  To those that want to convince themselves that every fish they catch in the heat of the summer lives contrary to what nature and biology tells us, I guess whatever makes you sleep at night.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, I don't make a living off of striped bass, only catch a few a year but If put to a vote, I would seriously consider voting to only catch and keep in the summer months.  I have fished with guides all over, and one of the things I admired about them was their dedication to conserving the fish and fishery, because they had the skill to catch bigger and more fish they understand the potential damage they can do to a fishery.  I noticed from what I can tell, than there are very few Lanier striper guides responding to this thread, I am not sure if that's good or bad.

I will say, after reading the information, if I book a striper trip in the heat of the summer and my guide does not let me know about the potential mortality and allow me to decide how many I catch and release, that I will not use their services again.

Thanks to the original poster for bringing this to everyone's attention.  I know that I will think twice about releasing striper in the summer.


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## BradMyers (Jul 9, 2012)

puddlehunter said:


> I will say, after reading the information, if I book a striper trip in the heat of the summer and my guide does not let me know about the potential mortality and allow me to decide how many I catch and release, that I will not use their services again.
> 
> Thanks to the original poster for bringing this to everyone's attention.  I know that I will think twice about releasing striper in the summer.



Thank you my man, education is the intent.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 10, 2012)

Brad, I would still like to read some of those reports. I checked out the sources Shawn noted, the most credible being a fishing club newsletter. I'm just one of the "stupid people" he noted, but guess where I won't be shopping anymore. You say education was your intent but isn't that what Chickadee thought when he ran around telling everyone that the sky was falling. I'm not saying that stripers don't die at a higher rate in the summer, I just don't believe in the study that only took a 5 fish sample and proclaimed a 100% mortality rate. And I don't think anyone wants to call the biologist a "liar" or his report "hog wash", but I certainly can't agree with his statistical analysis.
 I would really like to see a report that shows a higher than 50% C&R mortality with a decent sized sample population, and make sure its verifiable because I do check my sources. Thats all it would take to "educate" me, actual "proof".


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## T.P. (Jul 10, 2012)

Todd71673 said:


> Brad, I would still like to read some of those reports. I checked out the sources Shawn noted, the most credible being a fishing club newsletter. I'm just one of the "stupid people" he noted, but guess where I won't be shopping anymore. You say education was your intent but isn't that what Chickadee thought when he ran around telling everyone that the sky was falling. I'm not saying that stripers don't die at a higher rate in the summer, I just don't believe in the study that only took a 5 fish sample and proclaimed a 100% mortality rate. And I don't think anyone wants to call the biologist a "liar" or his report "hog wash", but I certainly can't agree with his statistical analysis.
> I would really like to see a report that shows a higher than 50% C&R mortality with a decent sized sample population, and make sure its verifiable because I do check my sources. Thats all it would take to "educate" me, actual "proof".


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## BradMyers (Jul 10, 2012)

Todd71673 said:


> Brad, I would still like to read some of those reports. I checked out the sources Shawn noted, the most credible being a fishing club newsletter. I'm just one of the "stupid people" he noted, but guess where I won't be shopping anymore. You say education was your intent but isn't that what Chickadee thought when he ran around telling everyone that the sky was falling. I'm not saying that stripers don't die at a higher rate in the summer, I just don't believe in the study that only took a 5 fish sample and proclaimed a 100% mortality rate. And I don't think anyone wants to call the biologist a "liar" or his report "hog wash", but I certainly can't agree with his statistical analysis.
> I would really like to see a report that shows a higher than 50% C&R mortality with a decent sized sample population, and make sure its verifiable because I do check my sources. Thats all it would take to "educate" me, actual "proof".


http://www.ncsu.edu/project/fish-lab/pdfs/Thompson_etal_2007.pdf

http://www.dnr.state.md.us/irc/docs/00005784.pdf

http://www.stripers247.com/smith-mountain-lake.php


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## SeeinStripes (Jul 10, 2012)

*Did someone want research?*

All arrows point towards striped bass die in warm water.  Why would anybody refute or ignore this plain and simple fact?  Can we say DENIAL?

Nearly every state's WRD or DNR has multiple studies or articles or notations or general information about the susceptibility of larger striper to hot water and post release mortality.

http://www.dnr.sc.gov/news/yr2010/jan4/jan4_murray.html

http://dnr.maryland.gov/fisheries/cr/

http://www.ncsu.edu/project/fish-lab/pdfs/Thompson_etal_2007.pdf

http://www.tidalfish.com/forums/showthread.php/242336-Striped-Bass-Mortality-Study-By-Craig-Springer

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/fishing/waterbodies/display.asp?id=25

http://www.beaversafari.com/uploads/striped_bass_management_plan.pdf

Excerpt from above link:
========================================
Length limits are only effective if caught and released fish survive in good numbers. Numerous studies
found in the literature show variable hooking mortality for striped bass caught under various conditions.
Wilde, et al. (2000) analyzed the results of seven studies on hooking mortality and found it to be directly
related to water temperature. They reported that hooking mortality increased rapidly as water
temperatures exceeded 25 degrees C. They found 50% of striped bass caught on natural baits die when
water temperatures reach 27 C, and this increases to 67% mortality at 31 C. They also found that striped
bass caught by artificial bait was 10% less over the same temperature range, and exceeded 50% when
water temperatures exceed 29 C. Harrell (1987) working only with fish up to 50.8cm (20”) found hooking
mortality was 4% in October, 2% in February, 21% in June, and 36% in August. Nelson (1995) working in
relatively cooler water (up to 22 C.) found that mortality increased with the amount of bleeding observed,
with 9% mortality for fish not bleeding or slightly bleeding, 33% mortality for light bleeders, and 75% for
heavy bleeders. Hysmith et al. (1992) working with fish sizes 229-762 mm total length during a two-year
period (June 89-June 91) in Lake Texoma, Texas found an overall hooking mortality of 38%. They found
hooking mortality was higher in spring (69%), and summer (47%) than in fall (8%) and winter (13%).
They also found fish length was directly related to mortality. Fish under 457mm (18”) had an overall
mortality rate of 28.5%, fish greater than 457mm had an overall mortality rate of 53%, fish between
457mm and 508mm (18-20”) had mortality of 33%, and fish over 508mm, 56.4%. This indicates that if we
choose to use length limits, 20” should be considered the maximum acceptable length limit. Tomasso
(undated abstract) working in aquaculture ponds found no significant difference in mortality related to
landing time. Fish hooked and landed in 30 seconds or less faired no better than those played to
exhaustion. Overall mortality in this study was 15.8%. Jrettoli and Riddle (undated press release)
reported mortality rates over 50% and as high as 67% in July, August, and September in Tims Ford
Reservoir, Tennessee. These studies indicate that the use of length limits is of questionable value due to
high mortality rates commonly reported in the literature. However, the studies also suggest that if we
choose to use length limits as a management tool, 20” should be the standard acceptable minimum size
limit, and that the length limit should be removed during July, August, and September.
========================================
To me, this is VERY significant because they are talking about 20" striper (3-4 lbs) being susceptible to mortality in water that is 88 degrees.  As has been proven, larger striper are FAR more susceptible than smaller fish.

How much information do some people need to come to grips with reality?

Another gripping excerpt:
========================================
Factor 1, summer water quality, is especially important to striped bass survival. Good evidence of low summer water quality is the prevalence of fish kills and evidence of these is dead striped bass floating on the surface (usually large fish which are more sensitive to temperature). Studies on the Lake Thurmond fish kill last summer, where more than 1000 striper were found dead on the surface, indicated that for each floating fish many more sink to the bottom. Fortunately Lake Murray had only minimal fish kills in the summer of 2009 and DNR counted only 98 dead fish with most of these coming in August. By way of comparison, 325 striped bass were counted floating dead in the summer of 2008 and that summer there were several weeks throughout the summer when fish kills occurred.

It is generally understood that striped bass kills are likely when water temperatures get very hot and the depth that fish seek for thermal refuge contains too little dissolved oxygen for them to survive. 
========================================

All I did was Google "striped bass mortality" and a plethora of knowledge popped up.

By the way, if you choose not to practice good striper conservation, I don't want to be the guilty party who supplied your wasteful death mission.

Temp translations:
22 C = 71.6 F
25 C = 77 F
27 C = 80.6 F
28 C = 82.4 F
29 C = 84.2 F
30 C = 86 F
31 C = 87.8 F
33 C = 91.4 F


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## Capt. Clay C (Jul 10, 2012)

Shawn, what did Wilde 2000 that you just mentioned determine concerning mortality and fish length after analyzing the original data sheets of Hysmith et al. (1994), Bettoli and Osborne (1998), and Nelson (1998)?

Also concerning the Jrettoli and Riddle (undated press release) you mentioned , can you tell me where they got their information? When you find it, can you tell me what the mortality rate for July  of 1993 was? 

Lastly concerning Jrettoli and Riddle (undated press release), can you tell me how many fish the 67% was based on that we are judging all this information?


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## Todd71673 (Jul 10, 2012)

First off, thanks for posting those 2 sources Brad. Along with those I finally got around to reading the good doctor’s study from Alabama Power. Here are my thoughts on all 3:
	First, the Alabama Power study. And I quote, “We experienced difficulty in obtaining help from professional fishing guides or local anglers for this portion of the study. Also, the anglers that did assist us had difficulty in locating and catching striped bass. Both of these factors combined made it extremely difficult for us to accomplish this objective and, after consultation with ADCNR and APC personnel, we decided to drop this objective from this study.” To me this admits he realizes that this part of the experiment failed, which gives the good doctor more respect in my book. The fact that local guides and fisherman would not assist shows a lack of faith in the study. The study has a great chart showing what happened to each of the 5 fish in question, one died at the boat so it never even got tagged. Two died within 5 minutes of being released after what I would consider long fights (3 and 4 minutes) and long handling times (2 and 4 minutes). The other two were out of the water for at least a minute and a half while a tag was applied with a “suture”, and they died within 24 hrs. Now I get anxious when it takes my fishing buddy 10 seconds to grab her camera or she drops the fish in the boat, so to me this was gross mishandling of the fish and that’s why they expired in my opinion! Otherwise I found the study a good read as far as movement patterns and habitat requirements. And I applaud his honesty on publishing the details of a failed part of the experiment.
	 Second, the Maryland study. Another good read in which they found results as high as 38%, which is along the lines that I would expect in summer time mortality. But they do admit that the additional stress of a fish that lives in saltwater and then proceeds to freshwater could be a big cause of a higher mortality %. Now two water ways were cited in this report, Susquehanna River in MD and Lake Texoma in TX, both showed high rates (approx.. 70 %) so I will be reading those reports listed in the references of this study to see why it is so high in those areas. 
	Lastly, the Virginia Smith Mountain Lake info, which appears to be more of a tourist info site than a scientific study. Looks like a good place to go fish, but other than stating that summer mortality rates are higher this source offers no real evidence.
	So in conclusion, I am still not a believer that even with proper angling and handling "all" stripers will die if released in the summer months.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 10, 2012)

Dear Shawn, I don't think there was ever a question that summer time brings higher mortality rates but it was the 100% that most of us had a problem with. I too did the google search and thats why I asked to be routed in a more direct area of where Brad got his info, so I wouldn't spend my whole day searching for what he was basing his report on. I do practice good conservation towards all fish, I have not caught more than 2 stripers myself since the temps have hit 80 degrees. But if you do want to talk about "wasteful death missions" you have no need to look farther than your own counter man, BB. He told me he went through 100 baits at Morgan Falls a couple of weeks ago. Its nice to see how you "apologize" to a customer for reffering to him as "stupid", I'm sure your business will be fine without me. And thanks for posting the info you found, gives me more to read and base my opinion on.


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## BradMyers (Jul 10, 2012)

Todd71673 said:


> First off, thanks for posting those 2 sources Brad. Along with those I finally got around to reading the good doctor’s study from Alabama Power. Here are my thoughts on all 3:
> First, the Alabama Power study. And I quote, “We experienced difficulty in obtaining help from professional fishing guides or local anglers for this portion of the study. Also, the anglers that did assist us had difficulty in locating and catching striped bass. Both of these factors combined made it extremely difficult for us to accomplish this objective and, after consultation with ADCNR and APC personnel, we decided to drop this objective from this study.” To me this admits he realizes that this part of the experiment failed, which gives the good doctor more respect in my book. The fact that local guides and fisherman would not assist shows a lack of faith in the study. The study has a great chart showing what happened to each of the 5 fish in question, one died at the boat so it never even got tagged. Two died within 5 minutes of being released after what I would consider long fights (3 and 4 minutes) and long handling times (2 and 4 minutes). The other two were out of the water for at least a minute and a half while a tag was applied with a “suture”, and they died within 24 hrs. Now I get anxious when it takes my fishing buddy 10 seconds to grab her camera or she drops the fish in the boat, so to me this was gross mishandling of the fish and that’s why they expired in my opinion! Otherwise I found the study a good read as far as movement patterns and habitat requirements. And I applaud his honesty on publishing the details of a failed part of the experiment.
> Second, the Maryland study. Another good read in which they found results as high as 38%, which is along the lines that I would expect in summer time mortality. But they do admit that the additional stress of a fish that lives in saltwater and then proceeds to freshwater could be a big cause of a higher mortality %. Now two water ways were cited in this report, Susquehanna River in MD and Lake Texoma in TX, both showed high rates (approx.. 70 %) so I will be reading those reports listed in the references of this study to see why it is so high in those areas.
> Lastly, the Virginia Smith Mountain Lake info, which appears to be more of a tourist info site than a scientific study. Looks like a good place to go fish, but other than stating that summer mortality rates are higher this source offers no real evidence.
> So in conclusion, I am still not a believer that even with proper angling and handling "all" stripers will die if released in the summer months.



Well Todd at least you are taking the time to read & learn something new and keeping an open mind. As far as Dr. Sammons report is concerned, I did ask him why the lack of participation from the guides ( I suspected the same as you). His answer is that there were limited guides available that did not have trips booked or something of the sort. Actually the guides were supportive of the study as they should be.

If you would like I'll be more that glad to shoot you Dr. Sammons # with his permission, I'm sure he'd be glad to answer any questions.

Here’s another deal for ya', pick any study that has been conducted on striped bass summer C&R mortality. I will do my best to have them on my show & you can be my guest host and ask & challenge anything you want. If you can't figure out who to request I will pick one for you. I think you'd have fun and get something out of it, just bring the biscuits.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 10, 2012)

Thanks for the invite Brad, I have been told I have a great face for radio. But I will decline the offer as most of my opinion is based after reading facts and charts several times to collect my thoughts, and the forum of a radio show will probably make me come off as ill-prepared or "stupid".


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## BradMyers (Jul 10, 2012)

Todd71673 said:


> Thanks for the invite Brad, I have been told I have a great face for radio. But I will decline the offer as most of my opinion is based after reading facts and charts several times to collect my thoughts, and the forum of a radio show will probably make me come off as ill-prepared or "stupid".



 you're perfect, I got a face for radio too.  

I'm sure I sound stupid but hey if I knew the answers I would not need specialist guest. I'll hook ya up with some prep stuff, Senoia ain't that far of a drive.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

I just noticed the NC study, now that is a statistics report! Tough read and certainly not geared toward "the average joe fisherman", if I had not taken 3 stats classes to obtain my degree (15 years ago) I doubt I would have even tried to read it. The most interesting point I saw was this, "The telemetry-based approach to mortality rate
estimation does not allow for the differentiation
between natural death and catch-and-release mortality". So basically they don't know what killed these fish but at least they admit it. To me this makes the findings of this report unimportant to our discussion. Another point this report made is that data collected from one water way isn't significant on another body of water due to local circumstances such as rainfall or fishing pressure, so I too would now like to see Lake Lanier based studies as that is where I usually fish.
So I'm still not drinking your Kool-aid and ya better buy your own dang biscuit!


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## BradMyers (Jul 11, 2012)

Todd71673 said:


> ya better buy your own dang biscuit!


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

I checked out the sources Shawn noted in his second post, other than the NC study nothing really seemed like it contained a study. I keep seeing this guy named Wilde referenced in these reports so now I'm off to google him and look for his data.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

Well I can't find Doctor Wilde's actual study, if anyone has a link I would love to see it. But I feel like I made my point here: The study showing 100% mortality was not accurate. It seems the highest mortality might possibly be around 70% for the summer months based on info from other water ways. And our own GA DNR reports an annual average c&r mortality of only 2% on Lanier, even though from what I've read there is really no way to be sure of that number. I think I'm still going to release my catch as I was willing to do with a 1% chance that they will survive to bring joy to the next fisherman. And if I have a banner day and get to feel the tug on the line 10 times I might kill 6 or 7 fish but most of what I read said that could be countered by the DNR stocking more fish. I just want to add that you can't always believe those that say they know: in Columbus's day the world was flat, in the 50's smoking wasn't bad for you, ask a mechanical engineer if a bumble bee can fly, and just look at all those prescription drugs that you now see on commercials for lawyers.


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## Scout'nStripers (Jul 11, 2012)

Once again, I read the studies that were posted to read. I don't see one that says conclusively that every striper that is released in the summer dies. There may be instances where stripers have died, I don't deny that but the data just isn't there fella's. All you can do is provide the information and make your best guess.

One study that I am familiar with is the study where 1 person passes along a story to another person and on and on until 20 minutes later the story has changed drastically. In this case, it is the story of mortality rates. 

I think that is the study we need to reference here guys.




> Jim, you are just charged up because it struck a nerve with you that you're killing almost every fish you catch. It's okay, it's perfectly legal. Carry on.


Shawn, I've watched you operate for years, you've disrespected me and many others with your arrogance more than one time, both publicly and privately. I would appreciate if you don't speak for me or address me, you are too young and very underqualified son, and I'd match my education, experience and accomplishments to yours any day. Carry on.  

Guys, this thread has brought a lot of this to light. It happens every year. Once the summer fishermen start catching fish, a couple of folks feel the need to stir the pot on this subject, it's not the first time I've had this conversation, and I'm sure it won't be the last. I'll not come back to this thread again. If you have something to say to me, that's what phones and PM's are for.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

Hey Brad, is there recorded version of your show that we can find online? I'd kinda like to hear it but I'm not awake that early in the morning unless I'm going fishing. Also, was it discussed on your show that this objective of his study was dropped?


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 11, 2012)

Here is a question and I am just curious. For those of you who doubt these "studies", what mortality rate would raise enough concern for you to slow or stop your fishing? 

I realize they may all not die. But is it 70% or 50% or 30%...what numbers make a difference? Even if the DNR uses death numbers into their stocking rates, at what point do we as fisherman manage things on our parts?


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## porkbelly (Jul 11, 2012)

The guides and bait people along with all lure manufacturing for these fish I think its way more important that we keep these people in business than a fish that can be replenished. I am out of work and would hate to see all involved in this fishery out of work. Think your opinion is fine but all others have one too. Most businesses can't afford to close down for four months so a fish can live. They are not native anyway and not wanted by plenty. Back in the day all I heard was complaints about stripers being stocked in lakes and ruining the fisheries. Stripers will die and thats part of natures way. Its an ocean fish and not suppose to be in a fresh water lake. Some people will be happy and some won't that's life. What no one has mentioned here is people have been catching these fish for many years in summer on Lanier and it hasn't hurt the fishery yet so why would it now? I have bought striper rigs that have never been used because I can't afford to go and if and when I can I will not worry about what time of year it is.


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## SeeinStripes (Jul 11, 2012)

Here's something fun, look for studies done on post release mortality for bluegill or crappie or walleye or catfish or largemouth bass.  What you'll find is either 1) nothing, or 2) minimal release mortality in comparison to striped bass.

I am positive the objective of Brad's O.P. has been accomplished and most of the members of this site have been able to draw an educated conclusion.  Thanks again to Brad for reviewing this information for newcomers to see.  Thanks to Mike Maddalena for adding his positive information.  This information needs to be reviewed as often as possible to shape the future of the fishery so old people who are set in their ways and have far too much free time and a computer have less chance to pollute the message which is trying to be delivered.  It's disturbing to think someone who knows they may be killing fish needlessly is so hard headed that they keep doing it.  Not only that, but they make a point to outcry in public.  Very sad.  Almost as equally disturbing is someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight and doesn't even need to be in the discussion might actually try to derail the efforts of those who are trying to do right by the fishery.

Jim and Todd, I think everybody who reads this post can see that you have a personal problem with me for some reason but let's not make believe that's the reason you choose to argue in favor of needless killing of striper.  Other than your own denial of all the scientific information, professional observations, and personal notes from many highly experienced striper anglers, there is no reason for you to poison the good message of this topic.  I never called anybody 'stupid' specifically, so if you think it applies to you, well....

And Todd, if you think a public forum is the correct place to air your personal issues, I will respond to your accusation of my manager being irresponsible in saying he used 100 baits.  The water temperature where those fish were caught was fluttering between 69 and 70.  Catch and release is HIGHLY effective in those temps and I support him saying that 100%.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 11, 2012)

Wow some old dogs don't care to learn new tricks. For the rest of you, great information in a great post. Also, gentlemen annual data does not always reflect small fragments of time where one variable will have an excessive impact on the overall result.

 This thread highlights one of those variables very well. Good to see the majority trend to avoid unnecessary damage to mature stripers.


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## SeeinStripes (Jul 11, 2012)

*1 more thing*

I am not a preservationist, someone who tells people NOT to use the resources provided to us by our WRD's and mother nature.  

I am a conservationist.  

This means I believe everybody is entitled to catch and kill (by whatever means they choose) their limit set by the state division of wildlife of whatever game they are going after each day.  This is the point of daily limits.  The problem is, with striped bass, the state cannot regulate how many die due to mishandling or plain old summer stress.  This is where the responsible angler theory comes into play.

Come get your gear, come get your bait, go catch your fish.  But when you get to your limit, be conscientious of the fact that the bigger fish PROBABLY aren't surviving the release.

I was below Watts Bar dam yesterday and picked up a ~20# floater.  The gills were red and there was a hook hole in the side of the mouth.  They were under light generation and water temp was 82. DO levels were likely moderate (I don't carry a DO gauge on my boat just so I can soothe the naysayers).  Obviously the fish didn't survive the release after the fight.

The creel limit on striper and hybrid in TN is 2.  Period.  Min length 15".  Stocking rates are 1/4 to 1/2 in TN compared to usual rates in GA, hence the low limit.  Going to TN and repeatedly releasing bigger fish to die is irresponsible.  It's the same for here.  Unethical anglers will continue to kill fish after their kill limit is reached.

There is a saying that catch and release is zero limit.  This a a great saying, but has its own limitations.  Again, please be conservative and help the fishery out.


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## TroyBoy30 (Jul 11, 2012)

so you could tell that fish died from the fight of being caught just because he had a hook hole in the side of his mouth?  that's amazing!


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## mtr3333 (Jul 11, 2012)

TroyBoy30 said:


> so you could tell that fish died from the fight of being caught just because he had a hook hole in the side of his mouth? that's amazing!


 That was just one of the clues.



> I was below Watts Bar dam yesterday and picked up a ~20# floater. *The gills were red* and there was a hook hole in the side of the mouth. They were under light generation and water temp was 82. DO levels were likely moderate (I don't carry a DO gauge on my boat just so I can soothe the naysayers). Obviously the fish didn't survive the release after the fight.


 
With no other marks what would be your best guess?


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## NCHillbilly (Jul 11, 2012)

mtr3333 said:


> That was just one of the clues.
> 
> 
> 
> With no other marks what would be your best guess?



Maybe coyotes killed it.


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## mtr3333 (Jul 11, 2012)

TroyBoy30 said:


> so you could tell that fish died from the fight of being caught just because he had a hook hole in the side of his mouth? that's amazing!


 


NCHillbilly said:


> Maybe coyotes killed it.


 

Now everyone knows coyotes only kill buck fawns that would have scored 160 at 3.5 years old. And that is on Ga. hunting leases only.


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## TroyBoy30 (Jul 11, 2012)

mtr3333 said:


> That was just one of the clues.
> 
> 
> 
> With no other marks what would be your best guess?



my guess is about as good as yours.  neither of us have a clue.


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## Lake_and_stream (Jul 11, 2012)

Same ol argument ,same ol guys doing the arguing ,same end result . 
Jeeeez


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## TimInGwinnett (Jul 11, 2012)

At the end of the day the striper and hybrid fisheries are put and take - neither fish reproduces (I know there are some exceptions for the stripers in some freshwater environments) so they are totally "man made" fisheries that are made for our use and enjoyment.  Our obligation is to follow the established rules and regulations.

As long as GA takes into account all types of striper mortality when coming up with the striper stocking rates than it is okay fishing for summer stripers even if some % die after being released.  If budget cuts force smaller stockings than maybe the DNR would have to amend the summer fishing rules on certain lakes to take into account the summer mortality and the lower stocked populations.  

I would be more than willing to pay extra for my fishing license as long as the gov't put all of this extra money into the fishing budget- not sure I trust the politicians on this unfortunately.

I rarely fish for stripers so I do not have a dog in this hunt but this has been a good read.  I can see how this issue could get people going and I understand both sides of this issue.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

Dustin, as I said earlier I will release my fish even if there is a 1% chance that it will live to fight another day. The only study I truely doubted was the one that stated 100% mortality, the only absolutes in life are death and taxes. My question to you is why do you put faith in theses studies? The data is so full of variation (stats term meaning a dergree of era) that I could not imagine allowing it to affect my life to the point of missing a whole season of enjoying the outdoors the way I want to.
Shawn, oh dear Shawn, I have nothing against you personally in fact I feel for you and I hope your getting the help you so obviously need (for those of you wondering this is this first conversation I've ever had with this guy). I'm not in denial of the scientific data, heck I read everything you or anyone else posted plus more that I found on my own! I'll ask you again, Please show me the study that proves 100% mortality. I'm not trying to poison any message: For those of you out there reading this there is a higher mortality rate in striped bass in the heat of the summer months its just common sense that tells us this is true. But its not 100%!!!!!!!!!!! Now I know you didn't directly call me stupid, but you basically said that anyone who doesn't agree with your point was saying something stupid which only stupid people do. Well if not "blindly" believing you or anyone else for that matter, If I want to see the data and make my own educated evaluation, if that makes me stupid in your book then so be it. And I will gladly put myself in that catagory, in fact who hasn't said something stupid? I'm not sure what personal issues you think I aired, I'm just me, a red blooded american. Now I never accused BB of anything other than having a great day of fishing using your term for such..... But hey heres an idea for ya, you can stop a lot of the mortality by just simply not selling bait in the summer, whattcha think? Is this position you take on this subject some kind of deep rooted guilt for having supplied the ammo for so many needless striper deaths.... actually I'm not asking you, I don't care what your response is, I know your a nut and I'm sure we will now hear something very angry back from you.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

Actually Lake, I'm new to the argument thats why I wanted to learn.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

Well Said Tim!


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## Big Texun (Jul 11, 2012)

Lake_and_stream said:


> Same ol argument ,same ol guys doing the arguing ,same end result .
> Jeeeez



 So true.

PS: The funny thing is, one of the guys who leads the "thou shalt not kill whitefish in the summer" side of the argument is now selling shad 5 days a week to help novices do that very thing.

On the other hand, I'm sure that he knows that those novices won't be able to keep those threadfins alive long enough to do nearly as much damage as some of us others who can catch $50 worth of his shad with one throw of the net this time of year.

While we are on that topic, it amazes me that anyone would pay 50 cents for a threadfin that will only live on a hook 5 minutes this time of year.

Ya'll carry on.


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## TroyBoy30 (Jul 11, 2012)

Big Texun said:


> So true.
> 
> PS: The funny thing is, one of the guys who leads the "thou shalt not kill whitefish in the summer" side of the argument is now selling shad 5 days a week to help novices do that very thing.



wait..........shouldn't he shut down for the summer?


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## Lake_and_stream (Jul 11, 2012)

TroyBoy30 said:


> wait..........shouldn't he shut down for the summer?




At the end of the day all we can do is what is best for each of us. 

l


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## DINK MASTER (Jul 11, 2012)

When this thread gets to page 9.......if anybody has switched sides on this topic, please post it so we know there's progress being made.


Taking all side bets !!!


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## Dustin Pate (Jul 11, 2012)

Todd I don't put entire faith in these survey's. As a college graduate I know all too well about statistics and survey size. The fact is that all of the ones out there regardless of size point to the same thing regardless of the rate of mortality. I do not believe that is as high as stated but I do know it exists. I have been fishing for stripers and hybrids since I could hold a rod and have the on the water experience to see how fish react. I have seen stripers from 60 degree water up to 80 degree water show very stressed behavior and long reviving times both from rivers to lakes. These were not long fights either and quick back to water releases.

Go and watch some of Judah's video's from Youtube. I saw on many an occasion he would do and underwater shot of a release only to have a fish go belly up and float off. Supposedly a cool water area that they can be released in?

The fact is I don't care if someone goes out tomorrow and catches 200 fish and releases every single one. If they are legal it would make my day to see someone have a good time. They are a put and take fishery period but that doesn't mean we as fisherman don't need to be informed of things that exist within the fishery as I have said many times in this thread. 

I am in the process of contacting state biologists and seeing if any recent studies have been done on this subject and/or get their ideas on the subject. I personally just like to know as much as I can about the fishery. I have a stack of paper work just on West Point and the Hooch from our lake Biologist. I mentioned in Pm to another member but the subject of participation and fish numbers in surveys was brought up. I know first hand it is hard to these biologist to get fish to study. A few years back, at West Point, they needed 100 (or more) young fish in the 1-3lb range I believe (for a reproduction study). They were relying on guides to get them but there was some trouble getting that size fish and also the hassle to get them back to them to study. So it is not as easy as just going out and doing it.


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## XtremeBowhunter91 (Jul 11, 2012)

Where I was fishing in Kentucky this past week, you are only allowed two stripers. Those two fish must be over 22 inches. While I was fishing yesterday there was a 10+ lb striper dead on the bank with a 1 pound drum (fish) in its mouth. The drum was still alive when we went and looked at the striper.


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## Todd71673 (Jul 11, 2012)

Dustin, it sounds like we agree on this! I personally have only seen a few stripers die, none of which I fought or handled. I too have fished since a very young age, and practiced C&R for most of my life. Trout was my passion until about 15 years ago when I got into bass and striper fishing, not to say I still don't enjoy trout fishing. Several years ago I moved out west to pursue guiding and teaching the art of the long rod, and I found one of the most important parts of teaching a newbie was proper handling and release of our quarry. I'm stating this because it seems like several of you guys think I just bought my first fishing rod or something. You say you saw a fish go belly up in cool water, can you think back to what else may have contributed to its stress? Some of the studies I saw said too much or not enough rain could equally be hard on a fish. Lack of food, or oxygen, anything could effect mortality. And the real kicker is that it will change year to year, water way to water way, even study to study. I like that most scientist seem to agree that the technology they used did not provide adequate means to measure the facts that we seem to want so badly.
Oh I don't need an excuse to watch some of Judah's films, thats good stuff right there! I can't say I noticed any floaters before but I'm sure it happens.
I also agree that this is a put and take fishery period, and maybe thats why my view is to enjoy it. I've seen the story of the Yellowstone Cutty being pushed out of its native spawning habitat on Yellowstone Lake. I've fished creeks in Colorado where the greenbacks are fighting the bows and browns for theirs. Those are native species and if they are to be protected it takes strict rules. These fish (GA stripers)are placed here for us to enjoy in a legal ethical way. I also agree that we need to be informed, but not led to believe that a problem is worse than it really is. Thats kinda why I got so involved on this thread, if it was 100% I felt the need to know more and also seeing someone who i know as a responible fisherman taking the opposing stance really made me want to know.
 I imagine its very tough to get a study done for any biologist and the technology is always lacking. I would like to see those local studies if you come across them along with Doctor Wilde's, I never did find that one. I don't know if spending money on more research is really the key here, like I said the next year can vary greatly making any study obsolete. I tend to think catch reports should almost be mandantory so the DNR has some firm numbers to go off of when restocking. But who knows if that would work or not.


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## Dirk (Jul 12, 2012)

I am not "taking sides" one way or the other on this as I am very conservation minded myself, but I love to see reports of smiling faces that caught some Stripers. One thing I think most of us can agree on is:

*There is no definitive proof that every Striper caught in the summer on lake Lanier and released has 100% death guarantee, BUT the chances of Stripers dying are much higher in the extreme heat of the summer than other times of the year.*

One other point to think about that hasn't been brought up enough is that many factors can increase or decrease the chances of the fish surviving after being caught. I have seen a Striper pulled up from 80+ feet and its guts were coming out of its mouth by the time it was lifted into the boat(not from the hook but from the extreme pressure change from that depth to the surface). I think it safe to say that fish was a goner, but the guy who caught it took the butt of the rod and pushed the organs back down the fishes throat and threw it back in!!! Also I think that trolling with the lure 300 feet behind the boat (that is 9 colors of leadcore out with 30 foot leader) raises the chance of death as that fish is going to be up in the hot surface water, much of the time skiing on the surface if the boat is still in gear. The list goes on and on of factor after factor that can affect the mortality rate, for better or worse. 

Therefore I think we can also fairly certainly conclude that if you want to improve the chances for the fish you are catching and releasing to live, then get them to the boat and released as soon as possible and try to catch the ones that are in not super deep(60+ feet). Now someone is bound to come on and say now I am trying to tell people how to fish, which is absolutely not true. Fish any legal way you like and have fun I say...   But *I think we should all agree that the less you wear the fish out, the less time it is in the hot surface water, and the less time out of the water in the boat will improve the Stripers chances for survival *in the hotter months. As I stated before I choose not to fish for Stripes on Lanier in July and August, but I don't have any ill-will toward those that do.  Also I think any type of ban on Lanier for Striper fishing is a Terrible idea, as long as the DNR is putting hundreds of thousands of new Stripers in each year. 

Though I am very conservation minded and can't stand the thought that I just killed a fish (unless I am going to eat it, which I haven't done in many years)I am also believer in that any lake can only hold so many Stripers and the more medium sized 5-15 lbers, the less large 20+ lbers there will be. Some of you may not agree with that, but I believe it to be true. If many of the 5-15 lbers are caught in the summer and some die, maybe that is actually helping the fish that do make it through the summer have less competition for large forage, and therefore a better chance to reach their size potential. Ask a biologist and I think many will agree with me on that. Worth thinking about at least even if you don't agree, and you like to catch big fish...


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## mtr3333 (Jul 12, 2012)

TroyBoy30 said:


> my guess is about as good as yours. neither of us have a clue.


 
Now that you say that, I just remembered. It wasn't the fight. It was the extended photo session after the fight most definitely. Case closed.


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## TroyBoy30 (Jul 12, 2012)

mtr3333 said:


> Now that you say that, I just remembered. It wasn't the fight. It was the extended photo session after the fight most definitely. Case closed.



still just another guess.  maybe you should do an autopsy on the next one!


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## Lake_and_stream (Jul 18, 2012)

So did we figure this out?


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## Todd71673 (Jul 18, 2012)

I did!


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## BradMyers (Jul 18, 2012)

Lake_and_stream said:


> So did we figure this out?



Not sure what some are thinking but the GA DNR stats are from a annual study on overall mortality and can be misleading on this subject June-Sept. So in honor of Todd and others who wanted to see a more comprehensive study with lots of stripes in the sample I have contacted Gene Wilder, Professor, Fish Ecology, Fishery Management, and Conservation Biology who agreed to join me on the air for an upcoming show. I am also working on getting Jason Bettinger Fisheries Biologist
South Carolina Department of Natural Resources on with us as well. These two combined have spent more time studying striped bass than most of us ever think about these fish. Once the date is set there will be an open invitation to anyone who wants to join me in the studio & come on the air with us and question these biologist. 
Will this convince everyone no, but maybe someone will take these studies as an eye opener when it comes to catch & release stripers in warm water.


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## Mikemad (Jul 19, 2012)

Sounds like a great show! Will more then summer time C/R mortality be discussed?  I would like to hear their opinions on increasing recruitment.  Getting more of the fish that are stocked to survive to a catchable size is a very important issue, at least to me. Be sure to let us know when it's going to air.


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## BradMyers (Jul 19, 2012)

Mikemad said:


> Sounds like a great show! Will more then summer time C/R mortality be discussed?  I would like to hear their opinions on increasing recruitment.  Getting more of the fish that are stocked to survive to a catchable size is a very important issue, at least to me. Be sure to let us know when it's going to air.



Will do. Mike I'll give you a shout next week, I'm heading out to Augusta for a weekend of racing.


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## fredw (Jul 20, 2012)

*Tennessee lakes closed to striper fishing in the summer*

Does anyone know which lakes in Tennessee are closed to striper fishing during the summer months.  A search turned up Cherokee.  Are there others?  Does the diffuser mentioned in this article create a unique enviornment in Cherokee?



> MORRISTOWN, Tenn. --- The Tennessee Wildlife Resources Agency will continue its closed fishing zone for the protection of striped bass after a study showed the fish still concentrate in the area above Cherokee Dam during the summer months. The closure will be effect from July 15 through Sept. 15.
> 
> Last August, studies were conducted on striped bass use of a portion of Cherokee Lake that has been closed over the past decade to fishing from a boat during summer months.
> 
> ...


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## LOST ON LANIER (Jul 22, 2012)

For what its worth I think the original point the poster was trying to make was that most people don't realize how likely it is that a fish caught in deep water during the summer is going to die.  Maybe they'll think about it now, maybe they won't.  As long as the DNR keeps dumping them in there will always be fish to catch.  I personally would love to see how Lanier would fish after a few years without the summer pressure.  I think it would be substantially better, especially if you're in it for big fish.  Fishing downlines and leadcore are effective, but I enjoy catching them in shallow water on lighter tackle during cooler weather much more.  The same fish being caught multiple times seems like everyone getting more bang for their buck to me.  It takes a long time for a truly big fish to get that way.

Here's a few pictures of a large striper I found on Allatoona today cruising around.  It had been recently caught (hook marks), had a full air bladder and couldn't stay down.  After it made a few trips down and popped back up, I jumped in and noodled it out.  I'd be interested to know who caught it this morning, it was an amazing fish for the ole' dead sea. 23lbs. I also saw quite a few dead hybrids washed up on the banks the last two days.   Just makes you wonder if people could take the quality of fishing for the rest of the year in their own hands by cutting the fish some slack for the worst part of the summer. That 10 lb fish you winched in on lead core this summer could be a 30lb beast that slams your flatline on a cool morning in a few years, which would you rather have?  Just something to think about.


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## jighead1 (Jul 22, 2012)

Lanier record was caught last year or so, I think 48 Lbs. Not to sound bad but if all lived I think we would not have nothing but those eating machines. I put a 21# 12 OZ 36"   ON THE WALL YEARS  AGO AND TODAY I WOULD NOT WASTE MY MONEY THEY ARE LOTS OF HUGE FISH HERE. iN fLA. IT AIN,T WORTH GOING FISHING YOU CAN,T KEEP ENOUGH FISH TO FEED YOUR FAMIALY, CAPTINS ARE LOSIN BOATS THE KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL TALK TO ANY CAPTAIN AND THEY WILL  SAYS MORE RED SNAPPER NOW THAN EVER.LIMITS ON BEELINERS, TRIGGERFISH WHAT NEXT. JUST TAKE A TRIP AND FEED THE FISH.SORRY FOR THE VENT,WE HAVE THE BEST STRIPER AND SPOTTED BASS LAKE IN THE COUNTRY AND DNR SAID BLUEBACKS WOULD RUIN THE LAKE, YEARS AGO I WOULD FISH TOUNAMENTS AND 5 FISH AT 9-10LBS WOULD WIN NOW IF YOU AIN'T GOT 17-18 LBS DON'T BOTHER.FISHED A BOATING ATLANTA TOURNAMENT BUDDY HAD 5 SPOTS 25# IN WINTER TIME, THATS SOME BIG FISH.STRIPERS ARE THE ONLY FISH STOCKED IN LANIER AND THE REST IS UP TO US AND NATURE AND WE ARE DOING A FINE JOB.Don't want to tick anyone off but it is the truth. I hate to say it but when they were first put in here bassfishermen would split them or toss them on the bank, and back then you just as well keep the fish beacuse they had to adjust to our water and they would float. I had one bigger than my 21#12 oz fish and my buddy went to net him and said he won't fit in the net, he knocked my spook off and fish was gone I stayed in that area for 30 mins. hoping he would die but no such luck, lots bigger than the one I mounted


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## sinclair1 (Jul 23, 2012)

jighead1 said:


> Lanier record was caught last year or so, I think 48 Lbs. Not to sound bad but if all lived I think we would not have nothing but those eating machines. I put a 21# 12 OZ 36"   ON THE WALL YEARS  AGO AND TODAY I WOULD NOT WAST MY MONEY THEY ARE LOTS OF HUGE FISH HERE. iN fLA. IT AIN,T WORTH GOING FISHING YOU CAN,T KEEP ENOUGH FISH TO FEED YOUR FAMIALY, CAPTINS ARE LOSEING BOATS THE KNOW IT ALLS DON'T KNOW IT ALL TALK TO ANY CAPTAIN AND THEY WILL  SAYS MORE RED SNAPPER NOW THAN EVER.LIMITS ON BEELINERS, TRIGGERFISH WHAT NEXT. JUST TAKE A TRIP AND FEED THE FISH.SORRY FOR THE VENT,WE HAVE THE BEST STRIPER AND SPOTTED BASS LAKE IN THE COUNTRY AND DNR SAID BLUEBACKS WOULD RUINE THE LAKE, YEARS AGO I WOULD FISH TOURNMENTS AND 5 FISH AT 9-10LBS WOULD WIN NOW IF YOU AIN'T GOT 17-18 LBS DON'T BOTHER.FISHED A BOATING ATLANTA TOURNMENT BUDDY HAD 5 SPOTS 25# IN WINTER TIME, THATS SOME BIG FISH.STRIPERS ARE THE ONLY FISH STOCKED IN LANIER AND THE REST IS UP TO US AND NATURE AND WE ARE DOING A FINE JOB.Don't want to tick anyone off but it is the truth. I hate to say it but when they were first put in here bassfishermen would split them or toss them on the bank, and back then you just as well keep the fish beacuse they had to ajust to our waterand they would float. I had one bigger than my 21#12 ox fish and my buddy went to net him and said he won't fit in the net, he knocked my spook off and fish was gone I stayed in that area for 30 mins. hopeing he would die but no such luck, lots bigger than the one I mounted


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## jighead1 (Jul 23, 2012)

sinclair1 said:


>



Boy you don't understand anything said, and yes god is in my life, lets keep suits out of this. If you can,t catch Stripers on you own go out with one of our guides and you will understand what I stated.Good Day Sir.And by the way I would be fishing Lanier when you were born and have seen the changes.Also vsit our guides and look at all the fish, big fish, Talk to someone thats knows the fish, Jeff, Shane, Don, Clay Robert, Youngblood, If they aint no fish these guys would stay on the porch  with you. Don' t get your panties in a wad, life is to short and fish to catch.I am a nice guy but right is right and the trouble starts with the cut backs from the DNR, no money can't stock the 50000-6000othat they use too now do good to get20000. I aint book smart but


 a country boy will survive, common sense will whip book smarts except dang court.


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## geaux-fish (Jul 24, 2012)

LOST ON LANIER said:


> For what its worth I think the original point the poster was trying to make was that most people don't realize how likely it is that a fish caught in deep water during the summer is going to die.  Maybe they'll think about it now, maybe they won't.  As long as the DNR keeps dumping them in there will always be fish to catch.  I personally would love to see how Lanier would fish after a few years without the summer pressure.  I think it would be substantially better, especially if you're in it for big fish.  Fishing downlines and leadcore are effective, but I enjoy catching them in shallow water on lighter tackle during cooler weather much more.  The same fish being caught multiple times seems like everyone getting more bang for their buck to me.  It takes a long time for a truly big fish to get that way.
> 
> Here's a few pictures of a large striper I found on Allatoona today cruising around.  It had been recently caught (hook marks), had a full air bladder and couldn't stay down.  After it made a few trips down and popped back up, I jumped in and noodled it out.  I'd be interested to know who caught it this morning, it was an amazing fish for the ole' dead sea. 23lbs. I also saw quite a few dead hybrids washed up on the banks the last two days.   Just makes you wonder if people could take the quality of fishing for the rest of the year in their own hands by cutting the fish some slack for the worst part of the summer. That 10 lb fish you winched in on lead core this summer could be a 30lb beast that slams your flatline on a cool morning in a few years, which would you rather have?  Just something to think about.



Were on Allatoona?


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## jonfishmacon (Dec 6, 2012)

OVER half of summer stripes on Juliette caught on u rigs die if not more.  i know this cause i see them floating  behind a boat pulling u rigs


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## TroyBoy30 (Dec 6, 2012)

Holy old threads batman.


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## BradMyers (Dec 6, 2012)

Yep and I'll have a new one up next year with more facts for the nay-sayers to ridicule in the name of self justification.


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## killabeez321 (Dec 6, 2012)

I once caught a whole family of 10#ers on one cast with an 
Alabama Rig, raised em up as if they was my own....
and didn't nary a one of em die...
Cept of old age....

Seriously though kinda glad some one dredged this up it was before i was a member makes me want to go read more old posts...


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## brianj (Dec 6, 2012)

BradMyers said:


> Yep and I'll have a new one up next year with more facts for the nay-sayers to ridicule in the name of self justification.



Facts are good!
 I think the first post lacked relevant ones, since most of the studies where done in shallow water lakes. And if not mistaken, didn't go bad and read to verify, but thought some of the dnr data was at odds with the post, noteing a significantly lower mortality rate. 

Anyway, look forward to next yrs facts.


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