# Satan's imitation of Christianity?



## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2014)

From various bible verses Satan will  imitate Christianity through the antichrist and false prophets?
Is there really anything Biblical that will let us know how this will happen or what to look for? 
The Great Prostitute or Mystery Babylon is mentioned. Will it be something concerning governments or Churches? Will the antichrist need a counterfeit Israel or counterfeit bible?

For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect”  (Matthew 24:24)

What signs and wonders could they possibly show that would lead the elect away if possible? It's a good thing that's not possible.

Satan will impersonate Christ

Luke 21.8 - "Be careful not to be led astray," he said. "Many shall come in my name, saying, 'I am the Messiah!" A time has come! 

Satan will impersonate Christ 

2nd Corinthians 11.14 - And no wonder, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light!

I guess I'm wondering when this will happen and what can I do about it. Meaning what would I look for if I'm alive during the impersonation.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2014)

Interesting that A.W. Pink believes the "other gospel" taught by Satan is the gospel of works. Maybe this is Satan's plan or imitation of Christianity. 
It is interesting the imitation process and the parallels of Christ and Satan, one for good and one for evil. But the parallels are there and we need to understand what they are and why Satan is imitating.

From A. W. Pink
Source: CCN

ANOTHER GOSPEL  Arthur W. Pink                 Reiner Publications                 Swengel, PA

Satan is not an initiator but an imitator.  God has an only begotten Son--the Lord Jesus, and so has Satan--"the son of Perdition" (2 Thess. 2:3).  There is a Holy Trinity, and there is likewise a Trinity of Evil (Rev. 20:10). Do we read of the "children of God," so also we read of "the children of the wicked one" (Matt. 13:38).  Does God work in the former both to will and to do of His good pleasure, then we are told that Satan is "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Eph. 2:2). Is there a "mystery of godliness (1 Tim. 3:6), so also is there a "mystery of iniquity" (2 Thess. 2:7). Are we told that God by His angels "seals" His servants in their foreheads (Rev. 7:3), so also, we learn that Satan by his agents sets a mark in the foreheads of his devotees (Rev. 13:16).  Are we told that "the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God" (1 Cor. 2:10), then Satan also provides his "deep things (see Greek of Rev. 2:24).  Did Christ perform miracles, so also can Satan (2 Thess. 2:9).  Is Christ seated upon a throne, so is Satan (Rev. 2:13--Gr.).  Has Christ a Church, then Satan has his "synagogue" (Rev. 2:9). Is Christ the Light of the world, then so is Satan himself "transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor. 11:14).  Did Christ appoint "apostles," then Satan has his apostles, too (2 Cor. 11:13).  And this leads us to consider "The Gospel of Satan."

Satan is the arch-counterfeiter. The Devil is now busy at work in the same field in which the Lord sowed the good seed.  He is seeking to prevent the growth of the wheat by another plant, the tares, which closely resembles the wheat in appearance.  In a word, by a process of imitation he is aiming to neutralize the Work of Christ.  Therefore, as Christ has a Gospel, Satan has a gospel too; the latter being a clever counterfeit of the former.  So closely does the gospel Satan resemble that which it parodies, multitudes of the unsaved are deceived by it. 

In contradistinction to the Gospel of Christ, the gospel of Satan teaches salvation by works.

http://www.believersweb.org/view.cfm?ID=571

(Just one man's beliefs, anyone agree?)


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 4, 2014)

It appears  Satan's imitation of Christianity has little to do with Atheism. 
Satan wants to appear as being a part of Christianity. He doesn't want to be attached to Atheism or a false religion such as Hinduism.
He wants to appear as the one true "Light."


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## bullethead (Sep 4, 2014)

Hard to believe God didn't do something about that pesky bugger already.


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## Israel (Sep 4, 2014)

"Atheist" is just a word some perhaps use to describe themselves, like christian.
The preoccupation with tares among wheat in one place, becomes another occupation in another.
The Lord knows those who are his, no matter what label they use.
Jesus may have another name for the "not so dyed in the wool" atheist.
Better to listen to him, and for him, than men.
And see what he has done to make the faith, free.


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## Israel (Sep 4, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Hard to believe God didn't do something about that pesky bugger already.


Oh, but he has.
Come, see.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 4, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> From various bible verses Satan will  imitate Christianity through the antichrist and false prophets?
> Is there really anything Biblical that will let us know how this will happen or what to look for?
> The Great Prostitute or Mystery Babylon is mentioned. Will it be something concerning governments or Churches? Will the antichrist need a counterfeit Israel or counterfeit bible?
> 
> ...




The Anti Christs
1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

The False Christ
Acts 8:9-13Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

9 And a certain man, by name Simon, was before in the city using magic, and amazing the nation of Samaria, saying himself to be a certain great one,

10 to whom they were all giving heed, from small unto great, saying, `This one is the great power of God;'

11 and they were giving heed to him, because of his having for a long time amazed them with deeds of magic.

12 And when they believed Philip, proclaiming good news, the things concerning the reign of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized both men and women;

13 and Simon also himself did believe, and, having been baptized, he was continuing with Philip, beholding also signs and mighty acts being done, he was amazed.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting that A.W. Pink believes the "other gospel" taught by Satan is the gospel of works. Maybe this is Satan's plan or imitation of Christianity.
> It is interesting the imitation process and the parallels of Christ and Satan, one for good and one for evil. But the parallels are there and we need to understand what they are and why Satan is imitating.
> 
> From A. W. Pink
> ...



If ones impetus is salvation, then salvation by works vs salvation by grace is central.
If ones impetus is works, then works by salvation (we are saved so He blesses our works) vs works by grace (by grace we participate in His works) is central.

In Mr. Pink's statement he emphasizes salvation, not works.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> If ones impetus is salvation, then salvation by works vs salvation by grace is central.
> If ones impetus is works, then works by salvation (we are saved so He blesses our works) vs works by grace (by grace we participate in His works) is central.
> 
> In Mr. Pink's statement he emphasizes salvation, not works.



But is "the other gospel" taught by Satan "works" as Pink believed or is he missing the whole thing all together?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> The Anti Christs
> 1John 2:18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
> 
> The False Christ
> ...



I'm glad to get your prospective, knowing all this has already happened. Do you believe Simon was the false Christ before his conversion?
On a side note it is strange that Jesus was talking to the people of the time he was on earth as if things prophesied by him would happen to them while physically still on the earth. Jesus didn't say in 1,000 years from now the false Christ will affect your future generation. Jesus didn't word things like as if it was way far in the future.


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## formula1 (Sep 5, 2014)

*Re:*

Satan is indeed already here spreading His deception everywhere. No need to look for it in future events as his works against Christ are already being seen. They have been since the beginning.

The error you and I face as Christians is to fail to recognize him as already among us.  Many are looking over there for some event or manifestation when he disguises himself as an angel of light already. He doesn't want to be seen as who he is! That would expose him. All he really wants to do is the same thing that he did in the beginning and sow doubt through the question 'Did God actually say?' (Genesis 3). And he has done very well with that, especially to those who are not grounded in the Word, the Spirit of God, and prayer!  A follower of Christ without a firm foundation is always vulnerable to deception!

So, live fully in Christ, believe what He says and don't try to change it. Walk in the Spirit and trust Him wholly. When someone comes along with a new idea leading to a new Gospel, don't believe it.  Fellowship with your God family as you will find safety there. And be willing to be accountable to others.  And love God and others with all your might. And be grateful for the gift of grace, so grateful that you give it to all you meet!  Endure and persevere through your struggles and a soldier and servant of the most High God. And be thankful! And above all ... pray without ceasing ... your Heavenly Father is your shield and strength ... He will always protect His own!

God Bless!


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## hobbs27 (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm glad to get your prospective, knowing all this has already happened. Do you believe Simon was the false Christ before his conversion?
> On a side note it is strange that Jesus was talking to the people of the time he was on earth as if things prophesied by him would happen to them while physically still on the earth. Jesus didn't say in 1,000 years from now the false Christ will affect your future generation. Jesus didn't word things like as if it was way far in the future.



Art, I'm not sure if Simon was the false Christ, but he was certainly a false Christ, and praise be to God, scripture always answers scripture.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Satan is indeed already here spreading His deception everywhere. No need to look for it in future events as his works against Christ are already being seen. They have been since the beginning.
> 
> The error you and I face as Christians is to fail to recognize him as already among us.  Many are looking over there for some event or manifestation when he disguises himself as an angel of light already. He doesn't want to be seen as who he is! That would expose him. All he really wants to do is the same thing that he did in the beginning and sow doubt through the question 'Did God actually say?' (Genesis 3). And he has done very well with that, especially to those who are not grounded in the Word, the Spirit of God, and prayer!  A follower of Christ without a firm foundation is always vulnerable to deception!
> 
> ...



I understand what you are saying but aren't there certain events or a chain of events that will take place near the end times performed by Satan?
A supernatural being performing supernatural feats or something along those lines that will fool people into following the anti-christ?
Teachers are going to be especially persuasive. Not only will they be deceived themselves and teaching deceptions, they will also have supernatural powers to "show great signs and wonders to deceive.

I haven't seen anything this persuasive as of yet although I do know Satan is already persuasive. Will Satan create a world government?


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> But is "the other gospel" taught by Satan "works" as Pink believed or is he missing the whole thing all together?



"The other gospel" is your power (Gen. 3:5).


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> "The other gospel" is your power (Gen. 3:5).



Whatever the "False gospel" is it will be very convincing because it will be combined with superpowerful trickery.
The false teachers will use supernatural feats, etc.
They will show great signs and wonders.

This does sound like more than just teaching a works based religion.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is there really anything Biblical that will let us know how this will happen or what to look for?



Look for websites with a black background and white text.  That's a dead giveaway.


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## formula1 (Sep 5, 2014)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> I understand what you are saying but aren't there certain events or a chain of events that will take place near the end times performed by Satan?
> Maybe and maybe not but I don't think so.
> 
> A supernatural being performing supernatural feats or something along those lines that will fool people into following the anti-christ?
> ...



These are my answers, imperfect as they are!


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## gemcgrew (Sep 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> "The other gospel" is your power (Gen. 3:5).


The religion of Lucifer...

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> The religion of Lucifer...
> 
> "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."



Is the false gospel anything that places oneself above God?
Satan will trick people into believing the individual is more important than God?
While I know Satan does this as he did it to Adam but is this really the false gospel we are all warned about?  
It's not a future event? The antichrist is made up of man's individual powers combined?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Look for websites with a black background and white text.  That's a dead giveaway.



While those sites do go overboard, there are many mainstream denominations that look at Satan imitating Christianity. What is your personal view on the subject?
What supernatural powers to "show great signs and wonders to deceive have you seen or do you believe this will happen in the future?
I would rather know your beliefs than the people that believe it's related to people not getting married. I actually read that will be one of the signs from the book of Timothy.


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## gemcgrew (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Is the false gospel anything that places oneself above God?


Art, Christ is the whole of the gospel. It is about the person and work of Christ. Nothing (baptism, rituals, morality, etc.) that I have done... am doing... or will do, will grant me acceptance before the Father.

Any gospel that places emphasis upon me, is false gospel.

Christ alone!


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, Christ is the whole of the gospel. It is about the person and work of Christ. Nothing (baptism, rituals, morality, etc.) that I have done... am doing... or will do, will grant me acceptance before the Father.
> 
> Any gospel that places emphasis upon me, is false gospel.
> 
> Christ alone!



And that is so true. So is it your belief or do you agree with Pink that a works based salvation is the false gospel we are warned about? What signs or great supernatural feats have you seen accompanied by people teaching this false gospel?


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## barryl (Sep 5, 2014)

*What to look for!*



Artfuldodger said:


> From various bible verses Satan will  imitate Christianity through the antichrist and false prophets?
> Is there really anything Biblical that will let us know how this will happen or what to look for?
> The Great Prostitute or Mystery Babylon is mentioned. Will it be something concerning governments or Churches? Will the antichrist need a counterfeit Israel or counterfeit bible?
> 
> ...


"And as it was in the days of Noe", "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot"  Luke 17:26, 28 KJV AV


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## 04ctd (Sep 5, 2014)

Art, there was a GREAT nugget in the "our daily bread" mag awhile back:  "the devil/demons can only cause CHAOS and disorder....they cannot RESTORE order and bring things back into a right state"

In other words....Pharoah's wizards could cause the same bad things to happen that Moses did, but they could make them go away (restore order)


some anecdotes:
one of my Biblically wiser friends speaks of demon possessed people: "demons have been around forever, they can't die, so when someone seems to be outsmarting you at every move...it's because the demon in them has played this game before"

another thing he says is a demon possessed person usually knows a lot of scripture, because...they have been alive forever, and they know scripture (it is God's word, and it limits/binds what they can do)

my personal example would be of a guy who gained the position of pastor at a failing country church.
there were a LOT of little BAD SIGNS...but they went overlooked, 
he grew it from ~40 people to about 200, then he did something to blow it up, and those 200 people will prolly never go back to church, neither will thier kids down thru the years.  so that was very effective, would you not agree?

that's another reason why you have to take kids from other families to church sometimes...to break the chain of bondage.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

barryl said:


> "And as it was in the days of Noe", "Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot"  Luke 17:26, 28 KJV AV



I'm looking more for signs of satan being transformed into an angel of light than end time signs.


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## hummerpoo (Sep 5, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> The religion of Lucifer...
> 
> "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."





gemcgrew said:


> Art, Christ is the whole of the gospel. It is about the person and work of Christ. Nothing (baptism, rituals, morality, etc.) that I have done... am doing... or will do, will grant me acceptance before the Father.
> 
> Any gospel that places emphasis upon me, is false gospel.
> 
> Christ alone!



Yep, (see sig line)


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

2 Thessalonians 2:
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.
11For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

Was this Simon? 
Why was sending  upon them a deluding influence from God necessary?
What signs and false wonders will the lawless one use?

Matthew 24:24
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

I truly haven't seen any great signs and wonders performed by any false preachers personally. Maybe I just don't get out much. Maybe I haven't been to any false Churches or Synagogues of Satan. Maybe my faith is too strong or the Holy Spirit has kept me under his wing.
I guess if the Bible doesn't tell me how to recognize counterfeit miracles I can only recognize counterfeit messengers.
It is an interesting conundrum that miracles in the Bible validated the messenger, and yet today, miracles are not necessarily an indicator for a true messenger of God. The difference is God’s Word.
This will be a challenge yet another conundrum is why all the warnings to Christians? Supposedly the Church's of Satan are made up of only reprobates.  

2 Corinthians 11:3
But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Satan was able to make a serpent talk. I'm pretty sure he can perform miracles using false preachers. I'm not convinced he can lead Christians astray.

But it appears these miracles performed by Satan or his followers will be in the last days.  Many of the responses on this thread are alluding to the fact that the last days are upon us or have already happened. I see no evidence of the lawless one or antichrist using supernatural powers to convince us he is Jesus. This is a prophecy of the Scriptures. 
Many are alluding to the fact that the antichrist, Satan, or demons are nothing other than a part of us. That our power is Satan or a manifestation of Satan.
That perhaps Revelation is not literal but just John's vision. 
Maybe it is and maybe it's not but the warnings of Satan imitating Jesus are in many books of the Bible. The manifestations of Satan and how he will deceive are in many books of the Bible.
I can't just picture this as some abstract meaning. To me it will actually happen or it already has.  I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen an antichrist. Sure I've seen many false preachers, false miracles, false churches, false gospels, other gospels, etc. but again I believe something much worse is coming.  Something more convincing. Something so powerful that it could lead the elect away from God, if possible, which isn't. Something evil and supernatural that will appear as good. 
I'm not your average doom and despair believer but I feel something much worse is coming. I hate it for all of us but feel we need to be on our toes. The warnings are there. I'm not sure what to look for or what we can do about it but it will come.
I hope this doesn't sound too weird or is not sound doctrine.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 5, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure what to look for or what we can do about it but it will come.
> I hope this doesn't sound too weird or is not sound doctrine.



When you keep your eyes toward the light , no darkness can be seen, but in time of darkness people will search for light. I guess what Im saying is dont worry, even when times of trouble come. The kingdom has growth spurts during these times. Throughout history everytime Christianity has been supressed or attacked, it has grown even stronger....Keep your eyes on Jesus!


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## M80 (Sep 5, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Yep, (see sig line)



It's good to see you post brother. Hope all is well hummerpoo


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> When you keep your eyes toward the light , no darkness can be seen, but in time of darkness people will search for light. I guess what Im saying is dont worry, even when times of trouble come. The kingdom has growth spurts during these times. Throughout history everytime Christianity has been supressed or attacked, it has grown even stronger....Keep your eyes on Jesus!



Thanks for the assurance. Sometimes I get too wrapped up in Bible things that don't concern me or maybe have already happened. 
Still the warnings are there for someone.  Perhaps the Jews before 70AD such as:
Revelation 3:8-10
8'I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie-- I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 5, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> When you keep your eyes toward the light , no darkness can be seen, but in time of darkness people will search for light. I guess what Im saying is dont worry, even when times of trouble come. The kingdom has growth spurts during these times. Throughout history everytime Christianity has been supressed or attacked, it has grown even stronger....Keep your eyes on Jesus!



I do understand the concept of the video of being tossed by the winds and the comfort of Jesus.


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## Israel (Sep 6, 2014)

It is less an imitation of christianity, even less an imitation of Christ, but a usurping, as always it has been.
The man who is complicit in this usurpation of Christ has something to show for it, and out of this much showing entire nations, religions, one might even say all of "world" history is demonstrated.
One may see that the not having of this settled:
 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.
Is also not having this settled:
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God. 

I will be as God is as common to man as breathing. Till, that is, one meets the man who not only was greatly content to say "the Father is greater than I", but lived it from his core. And sees what he alone can "show" for it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 6, 2014)

I used to think that Satan posed as a false trinity, two places in Rev, ch 13 and 16;13. I no longer believe that it is a false copy but rather the trinity itself. The 777 being the 3 part baptismal and the false christ claiming to be God.... the trinitarian belief is that he already has. The prostitute on 7 hills... just google that and see where that is. Topigraphical maps have that as Rome. Where did the trinity originate, Roman catholicism. I could go on and on, but you guys will be offended enough.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 7, 2014)

I think we should start a list and we can all add to what we think or what we have heard what or who the false christ and/or false gospel is. such as:

works based salvation preachers
Rome
Simon the Samaritan
Jews
our selfishness
grace based salvation preachers
Baptismal regeneration preachers
faith healers
drunken in the spirit believers
carnal Christianity
homosexuals and non-married couples
Trinity believers
Non-trinity believers
Gentiles
Babylon
United States
Industry/Illuminati

I'm still waiting for Satan to produce supernatural signs and lying wonders for me to form an opinion. I haven't seen these signs yet.
Scripture says clearly that the False Prophet and Anti-Christ will use false signs and wonders to validate their gospel.

“The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)

Beware, many will come in My name saying I'm Christ.

'And no marvel for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.'  

Satan will impersonate Jesus. I have not seen or known of any church where Satan is imitating Jesus. I have not seen or heard of any church performing supernatural feats or miracles.
I have not seen anything that great to make the elect, if possible, follow a false christ. 
I can only assume this is in the future. What this means is one day Satan will come to the earth or appear to the Earth and pretend to be Jesus. That's what the Bible is telling us. Satan himself will perform miracles and supernatural feats. Many will believe he is Jesus. He will simulate the arrival of Jesus.
Now if one wants to know how the real Jesus will come then read the Bible. There are clues to distinguish the difference. 
I doubt very seriously when Satan tries to convince us he is Jesus that people will come from the grave. Jesus will appear with armies upon white horses, Satan will not.
Jesus will come with a shout and all of the holy angels will be with him.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 7, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> From various bible verses Satan will  imitate Christianity through the antichrist and false prophets?
> Is there really anything Biblical that will let us know how this will happen or what to look for?
> The Great Prostitute or Mystery Babylon is mentioned. Will it be something concerning governments or Churches? Will the antichrist need a counterfeit Israel or counterfeit bible?
> 
> ...



2nd Corinthians 11.14 - And no wonder, for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light!

To a people or the man who have made themselves the be the gardians, the traders and the regulators of all kingdoms, our kingdom in Christ is just another one to  horde and  guard, to trade in and to regulate. It is another part of the collection we might call "the world" or "our world".

Those who put all kingdoms and powers as foremost to the Kingdom of God are Satans and as far as they are posing as believers, they appear as angels and ministers of the  light! By course, they have made the name of our God their servant--yet they know nothing of Him or are themselves deceived of knowing Him. They appear as the sent servants of man, but it is  the man turned to darkness that has called them to their charge, not our Lord.

To match the outlook(s) gained from the history of the fallen world with the promises gained from our Lord regards His salvific mission can be confusing and deception can occur. Man and man saved have faith in their origin(s). The outlook of the fallen world often makes a "big deal" of its sacrifices, but as Paul explains, to make a big deal of personal sacrifice in Christ, knowing the very sacrifice of Christ, is foolishness.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 7, 2014)

Ponder the word anti Christ. Christ means annointed. The NT word for Messiah. Known as God's annointed one. The trin doctrine does not have a Christ. It removes any annointing and replaces it with a Godman who would not need his own annointing


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## Israel (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Ponder the word anti Christ. Christ means annointed. The NT word for Messiah. Known as God's annointed one. The trin doctrine does not have a Christ. It removes any annointing and replaces it with a Godman who would not need his own annointing



And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


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## dawg2 (Sep 8, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Look for websites with a black background and white text.  That's a dead giveaway.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

Israel said:


> And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


Corrupted translation. The word is not God, it is "he". I will edit in the text

1 Timothy 3:16 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
2532 [e]	kai	ÎºÎ±á½¶	And	Conj
3672 [e]	homologoumenÅ�s	á½�Î¼Î¿Î»Î¿Î³Î¿Ï…Î¼Î­Î½Ï‰Ï‚	confessedly	Adv
3173 [e]	mega	Î¼Î­Î³Î±	great	Adj-NNS
1510 [e]	estin	á¼�ÏƒÏ„á½¶Î½	is	V-PIA-3S
3588 [e]	to	Ï„á½¸	the	Art-NNS
3588 [e]	tÄ“s	Ï„á¿†Ï‚	-	Art-GFS
2150 [e]	eusebeias	Îµá½�ÏƒÎµÎ²ÎµÎ¯Î±Ï‚	of godliness	N-GFS
3466 [e]	mystÄ“rion	Î¼Ï…ÏƒÏ„Î®Ï�Î¹Î¿Î½·	mystery:	N-NNS
*3739 [e]	Hos	á½‹Ï‚	[He] who	*RelPro-NMS
5319 [e]	ephanerÅ�thÄ“	á¼�Ï†Î±Î½ÎµÏ�ÏŽÎ¸Î·	was revealed	V-AIP-3S
1722 [e]	en	á¼�Î½	in	Prep
4561 [e]	sarki	ÏƒÎ±Ï�ÎºÎ¯,	[the] flesh,	N-DFS
1344 [e]	edikaiÅ�thÄ“	á¼�Î´Î¹ÎºÎ±Î¹ÏŽÎ¸Î·	was justified	V-AIP-3S
1722 [e]	en	á¼�Î½	in	Prep
4151 [e]	pneumati	Ï€Î½ÎµÏ�Î¼Î±Ï„Î¹,	[the] Spirit,	N-DNS
3708 [e]	Å�phthÄ“	á½¤Ï†Î¸Î·	was seen	V-AIP-3S
32 [e]	angelois	á¼€Î³Î³Î­Î»Î¿Î¹Ï‚,	by angels,	N-DMP
2784 [e]	ekÄ“rychthÄ“	á¼�ÎºÎ·Ï�Ï�Ï‡Î¸Î·	was proclaimed	V-AIP-3S
1722 [e]	en	á¼�Î½	among	Prep
1484 [e]	ethnesin	á¼”Î¸Î½ÎµÏƒÎ¹Î½,	[the] nations,	N-DNP
4100 [e]	episteuthÄ“	á¼�Ï€Î¹ÏƒÏ„ÎµÏ�Î¸Î·	was believed on	V-AIP-3S
1722 [e]	en	á¼�Î½	in	Prep
2889 [e]	kosmÅ�	ÎºÏŒÏƒÎ¼á¿³,	[the] world,


Our trinitarian translations are full of this. Of almost every so called proof text, I can show you the corruption. And then, nothing remains but tradition


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## formula1 (Sep 8, 2014)

*Re:*



Israel said:


> And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.



Amen!  Man could never do what God has done!


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Corrupted translation. The word is not God, it is "he". I will edit in the text
> 
> 1 Timothy 3:16 â–º
> Text Analysis
> ...




What do you make of Jesus' appearances in the OT?


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Corrupted translation. The word is not God, it is "he". I will edit in the text
> 
> 1 Timothy 3:16 â–º
> Text Analysis
> ...


Now some will still misread this and think it supports their tradition but it does not. Jesus appeared in the flesh, was justified by the spirit, seen by angels, etc. It does not imply he is God here. Not only that, consider the context. Why would God need be justified?


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What do you make of Jesus' appearances in the OT?


There are none. Nothing more than forced assumptions. Hebrews 1, In the past God spoke in various ways, but in these last days he spoke through his son", something like that paraphrase


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Amen!  Man could never do what God has done!


Could God do it through his annointed one?


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## gemcgrew (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Corrupted translation. The word is not God, it is "he".




"As you can readily see most of the modern versions don’t really follow ANY Greek Text in this passage. In a weak attempt to avoid using “Theos” and to make sense out of an unintelligible sentence most versions have erroneously inserted the word “He”. This shows willful intent on their part because “He” is not found in ONE SINGLE GREEK MANUSCRIPT."

http://www.avdefense.webs.com/1tim3-16.html


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> There are none. Nothing more than forced assumptions. Hebrews 1, In the past God spoke in various ways, but in these last days he spoke through his son", something like that paraphrase



Gen. 18:1-14.   I guess if you deny the many appearances of Jesus in the OT it makes it easier to dismiss the trinity, but I look at this in Genesis and think also of the angel in Revelation that rebuked John for worshipping him saying it was only for God.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Gen. 18:1-14.   I guess if you deny the many appearances of Jesus in the OT it makes it easier to dismiss the trinity, but I look at this in Genesis and think also of the angel in Revelation that rebuked John for worshipping him saying it was only for God.


Gen 19;1 clearly calls two of the three, angels


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "As you can readily see most of the modern versions don’t really follow ANY Greek Text in this passage. In a weak attempt to avoid using “Theos” and to make sense out of an unintelligible sentence most versions have erroneously inserted the word “He”. This shows willful intent on their part because “He” is not found in ONE SINGLE GREEK MANUSCRIPT."
> 
> http://www.avdefense.webs.com/1tim3-16.html


Not so. Did you not see my post, my cut and paste of the greek that clearly has the word he. Post 39 [highlighted in red] Theos is not there. The King James has no leg to stand on. The best you could do is say that we have no original manuscript and that you believe that all our current greek translations are wrong, assuming it was once there. And how about the context? Why would God need be justified?


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## hobbs27 (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Gen 19;1 clearly calls two of the three, angels



Yes, it does.


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## formula1 (Sep 8, 2014)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> Could God do it through his annointed one?



Sure and He did through Christ Jesus His only begotten(monogenes) Son! He was with God in the beginning and through Christ all things were created. A whole lot more than a mere man to those who know Him.

Hebrews 1
1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power.

Lots of use of the word 'he' there.  I wonder what they all mean!


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Sure and He did through Christ Jesus His only begotten(monogenes) Son! He was with God in the beginning and through Christ all things *were created*. A whole lot more than a mere man to those who know Him.
> 
> Hebrews 1
> 1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He *created the world*. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power.
> ...


Great verses for me to show you how corrupt translators can be when they insert their doctrine. I will edit in the proof 
ohn 1:10 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
1722 [e]	en	á¼�Î½	In	Prep
3588 [e]	tÅ�	Ï„á¿·	the	Art-DMS
2889 [e]	kosmÅ�	ÎºÏŒÏƒÎ¼á¿³	world	N-DMS
1510 [e]	Ä“n	á¼¦Î½,	he was,	V-IIA-3S
2532 [e]	kai	ÎºÎ±á½¶	and	Conj
3588 [e]	ho	á½�	the	Art-NMS
2889 [e]	kosmos	ÎºÏŒÏƒÎ¼Î¿Ï‚	world	N-NMS
1223 [e]	diâ€™	Î´Î¹â€™	through	Prep
846 [e]	autou	Î±á½�Ï„Î¿á¿¦	him	PPro-GM3S
*1096 [e]	egeneto	á¼�Î³Î­Î½ÎµÏ„Î¿,	emerged,*	V-AIM-3S
2532 [e]	kai	ÎºÎ±á½¶	and	Conj
3588 [e]	ho	á½�	the	Art-NMS
2889 [e]	kosmos	ÎºÏŒÏƒÎ¼Î¿Ï‚	world	N-NMS
846 [e]	auton	Î±á½�Ï„á½¸Î½	him	PPro-AM3S
3756 [e]	ouk	Î¿á½�Îº	not	Adv
1097 [e]	egnÅ�	á¼”Î³Î½Ï‰.	knew.	V-AIA-3S
Greek Texts

1096 gínomai â€“ properly, to emerge, become, transitioning from one point (realm, condition) to another. 1096 (gínomai) fundamentally means "become" (becoming, became) so it is not an exact equivalent to the ordinary equative verb "to be" (is, was, will be) as with 1510 /eimí (1511 /eínai, 2258 /Ä“n).

1096 (ginomai) means "to become, and *signifies a change of condition*, state or place" (Vine, Unger, White, NT, 109).

M. Vincent, "1096 (gínomai) means to come into being/manifestation implying motion, movement, or growth" (at 2 Pet 1:4). Thus it is used for God's actions as emerging from eternity and becoming (showing themselves) in time (physical space).

Notice a changing of what already is. Nothing to imply created. The new creation was accomplished through Jesus.

 The Hebrews verse, through whom he made the world. Not in the greek. It is Aion, ages, not world/universe

â—„ Hebrews 1:2 â–º
Text Analysis
Strong's	Transliteration	Greek	English	Morphology
1909 [e]	epâ€™	á¼�Ï€â€™	in	Prep
2078 [e]	eschatou	á¼�ÏƒÏ‡Î¬Ï„Î¿Ï…	last	Adj-GNS
3588 [e]	tÅ�n	Ï„á¿¶Î½	the	Art-GFP
2250 [e]	hÄ“merÅ�n	á¼¡Î¼ÎµÏ�á¿¶Î½	days	N-GFP
3778 [e]	toutÅ�n	Ï„Î¿Ï�Ï„Ï‰Î½	these,	DPro-GFP
2980 [e]	elalÄ“sen	á¼�Î»Î¬Î»Î·ÏƒÎµÎ½	has spoken	V-AIA-3S
1473 [e]	hÄ“min	á¼¡Î¼á¿–Î½	to us	PPro-D1P
1722 [e]	en	á¼�Î½	by	Prep
5207 [e]	HuiÅ�	Î¥á¼±á¿·,	[his] Son,	N-DMS
3739 [e]	hon	á½ƒÎ½	whom	RelPro-AMS
5087 [e]	ethÄ“ken	á¼”Î¸Î·ÎºÎµÎ½	he appointed	V-AIA-3S
2818 [e]	klÄ“ronomon	ÎºÎ»Î·Ï�Î¿Î½ÏŒÎ¼Î¿Î½	heir	N-AMS
3956 [e]	pantÅ�n	Ï€Î¬Î½Ï„Ï‰Î½,	of all things,	Adj-GNP
1223 [e]	diâ€™	Î´Î¹â€™	through	Prep
3739 [e]	hou	Î¿á½—	whom	RelPro-GMS
2532 [e]	kai	ÎºÎ±á½¶	and	Conj
4160 [e]	epoiÄ“sen	á¼�Ï€Î¿Î¯Î·ÏƒÎµÎ½	he made	V-AIA-3S
3588 [e]	tous	Ï„Î¿á½ºÏ‚	the	Art-AMP
*165 [e]	aiÅ�nas*	Î±á¼°á¿¶Î½Î±Ï‚·	worlds,

aión: a space of time, an age
Original Word: Î±á¼°ÏŽÎ½, á¿¶Î½Î¿Ï‚, á½�
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: aión
Phonetic Spelling: (ahee-ohn')
Short Definition: an age, a cycle of time
Definition: an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity.
HELPS Word-studies
165 aiá¹“n (see also the cognate adjective, 166 /aiá¹“nios, "age-long") â€“ properly, an age (era, "time-span"), characterized by a specific quality (type of existence).

Example: Christians today live in the newer age (165 /aiá¹“n) of the covenant â€“ the time-period called the NT. It is characterized by Christ baptizing all believers in the Holy Spirit, i.e. engrafting all believers (OT, NT) into His mystical body (1 Cor 12:13) with all the marvelous privileges that go with that (Gal 3:23-25; 1 Pet 2:5,9).


NAS Exhaustive Concordance
Word Origin
from a prim. root appar. mean. continued duration
Definition
a space of time, an age
NASB Translation
age (20), ages (6)

We are in a new age. The law came through Moses, grace through Jesus.

All the trin proof text amount to this. Forced theology by twisting the translation to fit the doctrine. Biblehub is a great resource. Type in the verse, click the greek. See the word, see the definition, see how it is translated 90 percent of the time and that is how it should have been. Funny thing, they always get it right unless it has to do with the diety of Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Sure and He did through Christ Jesus His only begotten(monogenes) Son! He was with God in the beginning and through Christ all things were created. A whole lot more than a mere man to those who know Him.
> 
> Hebrews 1
> 1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power.
> ...


 Although Adam was made in God's image, Adam failed to represent God to the world. Jesus did represent God to the world with his actions. So much so that he was credited with being the exact representation. We are to represent Christ to the world, but it does not make us him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

Here is one I just noticed ; He upholds the *universe* by the word of his power. The word universe is corrupt. This is the greek word;
Strong's Concordance
pas: all, every
Original Word: Ï€á¾¶Ï‚, Ï€á¾¶ÏƒÎ±, Ï€á¾¶Î½
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: pas
Phonetic Spelling: (pas)
Short Definition: all, the whole, every kind of
Definition: all, the whole, every kind of.
HELPS Word-studies
3956 pás â€“ each, every; each "part(s) of a totality" (L & N, 1, 59.24).

3956 /pás ("each, every") means "all" in the sense of "each (every) part that applies." The emphasis of the total picture then is on "one piece at a time." 365 (ananeóÅ�) then focuses on the part(s) making up the whole â€“ viewing the whole in terms of the individual parts.

Nothing to imply universe. Do you see just how corrupt our translations are? Twisting it to fit tradition. 

"All authority has been given to me" just as OT fathers gave all authority to their firstborns, difference being that God's authority given to Jesus really does encompass all


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## formula1 (Sep 8, 2014)

*Re:*

You need not waste your typing on me!  I'm glad you are here though as your views are great thorns that help us study and learn the discernment of truth!  Perhaps that is your God-given purpose here!  

The real truth doesn't lie in man's knowledge of a language and its interpretation as defined by man (remember man wrote Strong's), but it lies in knowing Christ Jesus the Lord, in truth and personally, as defined by the Spirit of the Living God.  It is the Spirit of God who gives life to the Word of God.  By His Spirit you will know Him, by grace through faith, as you believe in Christ as God's son with all that you are (your whole 'heart')!  

That is all! God Bless!!!


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> You need not waste your typing on me!  I'm glad you are here though as your views are great thorns that help us study and learn the discernment of truth!  Perhaps that is your God-given purpose here!
> 
> The real truth doesn't lie in man's knowledge of a language and its interpretation as defined by man (remember man wrote Strong's), but it lies in knowing Christ Jesus the Lord, in truth and personally, as defined by the Spirit of the Living God.  It is the Spirit of God who gives life to the Word of God.  By His Spirit you will know Him, by grace through faith, as you believe in Christ as God's son with all that you are (your whole 'heart')!
> 
> That is all! God Bless!!!


Thanks for the great attitude. Many people are offended by anybody who believes differently.


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## formula1 (Sep 8, 2014)

*Re:*



1gr8bldr said:


> Thanks for the great attitude. Many people are offended by anybody who believes differently.



I can't say you are not a challenge for me, but God's grace and forgiveness is for you, too!  Don't miss it! God Bless!


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## hawglips (Sep 8, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting that A.W. Pink believes the "other gospel" taught by Satan is the gospel of works.



Perhaps it is semantics, but seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of works.  Among the works He said were required for eternal life include:

believing on Him
repenting
being baptized
being born again
forsaking all and following him
ministering to others
obeying His commandments
doing the will of The Father
etc

I often think that Satan's counterfeit gospel is one that lulls us into the belief that we can live contrary to the Way He has shown us and all will be well anyway; that we can just say Lord, Lord and be saved in the Kingdom of God without doing His will.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> I can't say you are not a challenge for me, but God's grace and forgiveness is for you, too!  Don't miss it! God Bless!


Oh how I wish we all believed alike. I am a very devout believer, just not in the same way. My faith is in Jesus as the son of God, but that term means different things to many people


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## Israel (Sep 8, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Oh how I wish we all believed alike. I am a very devout believer, just not in the same way. My faith is in Jesus as the son of God, but that term means different things to many people



I don't diminish your "wishing" as long as the object of that faith, remains the author of _the_ faith.
Whatever changes we may perceive necessary for _the_ faith of the Son of God to be perfected in any, must in no less measure be changes we embrace for ourselves.
If the fullness of the growth, be the fullness of both the experience and expression of the life of the Lord, would it not include, or better, how could it not include the seeming of being forsaken by all?
Paul surely knew of this "lonely" place...as did others, in our history and written legacy. 
John's Patmos. 
Paul writing of "none stood with me, but all deserted me...", and a time in prison with few, if any visitors.
Brother Nee consigned to 20 years of almost complete silence to the "outside" while held in communist China.
I do not surmise that all faithful must endure such, but perhaps we can neither be indifferent to such experiences of "others", for, as Paul writes "remember those in prison _as though you were_ imprisoned with them." 
The work of the spirit through any, may well be in the measure to which we have apprehended the experience of the Christ.

And this _sharing_ of restriction while seeming free may go farther than we have yet believed in bringing others out of bondage...and may indeed be a true well of comfort if, and when, we may find ourselves no longer on the seeming side of being imprisoned.

Your heart sounds heavy as though in the seeing of a thing of great worth its ill reception seems to belie its value.
And consider Jesus. What he saw in truth, while in flesh, and what he endured so that we might...see.
The least seat at a feast only looks a forsaken place, till you see the one who took the even lower one, of which we were previously unaware, but who is now delighted to have company, next to him.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Perhaps it is semantics, but seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of works.  Among the works He said were required for eternal life include:
> 
> believing on Him
> repenting
> ...



I did list grace based salvation preachers as some people's false gospel. While I can't deny your list I'm still reminded of why Jesus died. It was because people could not quit sinning. People just can't be good enough to gain salvation. Look at the people Jesus talked about. 
They did great works but it wasn't a part of salvation.
Now I'm not convinced that Satan's synagogue is either the lordship salvation or free grace salvation church as I haven't seen the lying wonders and signs Satan will use in his imitation.
Do you believe it to be the free grace churches? The lordship salvation Churches have more signs, wonders, works, miracles, rites,  rituals, symbols, laws, legalisms, requirements, etc., maybe from God but even those aren't great enough to be convincing like Satan will be.
When Satan performs his imitation of Christ people will actually believe he is Jesus the Christ, the anointed one.
Has anyone on this forum believed someone is Jesus other than Jesus the Christ?
Now we might argue on exactly who Jesus is and some might say one must believe he is actually God and some might say he is actually the Son of God. But who has actually followed a different Christ not anointed by God?
God anointed Jesus. Jesus gives all of his credit to what he is doing to God. There is only one God. 
We are all children of God. If you have seen me, you have seen my Father. I am a child of God. I was not adopted. If you have seen me you have seen my Father. I am in the image of my Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> You need not waste your typing on me!  I'm glad you are here though as your views are great thorns that help us study and learn the discernment of truth!  Perhaps that is your God-given purpose here!
> 
> The real truth doesn't lie in man's knowledge of a language and its interpretation as defined by man (remember man wrote Strong's), but it lies in knowing Christ Jesus the Lord, in truth and personally, as defined by the Spirit of the Living God.  It is the Spirit of God who gives life to the Word of God.  By His Spirit you will know Him, by grace through faith, as you believe in Christ as God's son with all that you are (your whole 'heart')!
> 
> That is all! God Bless!!!



It appears he has read, studied, prayed, and contemplated, the scriptures and the various Greek interpretations. He has presented his beliefs with just a meager request to at least wonder. Just consider. Look into it, study it without your denomination's goggles off. You might find that you still believe he is wrong but have you really looked into it as much as you should?
If by God's grace through his Son Jesus the anointed Christ, we are saved, why add that someone's views are thorns?
Are you saying that by not believing Jesus is his Father we are missing God's grace and forgiveness?
Regardless of either belief, how can it possibly take away from God's grace? God being the only one who is good and the only one that knows when his Son will return. God being the one and only God, creator of the universe.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Perhaps it is semantics, but seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of works.  Among the works He said were required for eternal life include:
> 
> believing on Him
> repenting
> ...



I have tried repenting man's way and it didn't work for me. I tried  what I believe is God's way and it was much more assuring. I believe God's way of repenting is to finally believe that one can't live good enough to save them self and thus must repent or change their mind to a belief that they need Jesus to die for them. 
For many years I believed my salvation was a part of how I must live. I tried to quit sinning but I haven't had much luck living a perfect lifestyle. I do try to live a Holy life but now I'm glad I have a Mediator.
I guess I finally realized Jesus died for my sins. The sad thing is it took 50 years of my life to be convinced.
Either way, I'm not convinced that was from Satan, just my own selfishness.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 8, 2014)

formula1 said:


> Sure and He did through Christ Jesus His only begotten(monogenes) Son! He was with God in the beginning and through Christ all things were created. A whole lot more than a mere man to those who know Him.
> 
> Hebrews 1
> 1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His nature, and He upholds the universe by the word of His power.
> ...



What is your belief in verse 2 of the last days? 

Does monogenes really mean only begotten or just begotten? Maybe it means something else. I like to think of Jesus as light. Is light waves or particles? Light is very unique. I love light. Light is a good analogy of Jesus.
In Hebrews 11:17, Isaac is referred to as Abraham's monogenes. Isaac was not the only son of Abraham who had also begotten Ishmael.


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## Israel (Sep 9, 2014)

What if "light" is not the analogy, but the truth?
What if we are the analogs, the metaphors, the things living "once removed" so to speak? 
Light, life, way, truth...all things that we have words for and fit a description in our limited understandings, but which are being revealed...in depth...in truth.


----------



## formula1 (Sep 9, 2014)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> It appears he has read, studied, prayed, and contemplated, the scriptures and the various Greek interpretations. He has presented his beliefs with just a meager request to at least wonder. Just consider. Look into it, study it without your denominations goggles on. You might find that you still believe he is wrong but have you really looked into it as much as you should?
> If by God's grace through his Son Jesus the anointed Christ, we are saved, why add that someone's views are thorns?
> Are you saying that by not believing Jesus is his Father we are missing God's grace and forgiveness?
> Regardless of either belief, how can it possibly take away from God's grace? God being the only one who is good and the only one that knows when his Son will return. God being the one and only God, creator of the universe.



You know I almost answered you, but I realized you are trying to jump into a conversation between two folks as a third party and you do not belong.  I think you should not make so many assumptions of intent and my knowledge of scripture as 'denominational'.  You have no idea!

I will simply say that I never excluded '1gr8bldr' from the grace of God and he knows it.


----------



## hawglips (Sep 9, 2014)

> Originally Posted by hawglips:
> Perhaps it is semantics, but seems to me that Christ taught a gospel of works. Among the works He said were required for eternal life include:
> 
> believing on Him
> ...





Artfuldodger said:


> I did list grace based salvation preachers as some people's false gospel. While I can't deny your list I'm still reminded of why Jesus died. It was because people could not quit sinning. People just can't be good enough to gain salvation. Look at the people Jesus talked about.  They did great works but it wasn't a part of salvation.



That's right - nothing anyone can do earns them salvation.   All have indeed sinned, and thereby fall short of the glory of God, and therefore equally need The Savior.  In spite of all we can do, all we have earned is h3LL.   That's why He died.

However, it seems to me that the list of things He has asked us to do should be heeded.  He said those things are required of us if we want eternal life with Him.  We all should be making a heart check frequently, and making sure we are repenting and changing and humbly seeking His will, and loving to do the things He's asked of us.   

It seems to me that claiming salvation, as if we have earned it by believing He is Lord and "accepting" His atonement, is a prideful step in the wrong direction that leads us towards sin and not keeping in the humility required to truly turn our hearts and lives over to Him and acknowledge our continued need for His blood to wash us clean. 



Artfuldodger said:


> Now I'm not convinced that Satan's synagogue is either the lordship salvation or free grace salvation church as I haven't seen the lying wonders and signs Satan will use in his imitation.
> Do you believe it to be the free grace churches? The lordship salvation Churches have more signs, wonders, works, miracles, rites,  rituals, symbols, laws, legalisms, requirements, etc., maybe from God but even those aren't great enough to be convincing like Satan will be.
> When Satan performs his imitation of Christ people will actually believe he is Jesus the Christ, the anointed one.
> Has anyone on this forum believed someone is Jesus other than Jesus the Christ?



Think about the parable of the Ten Virgins.  I think He used "virgins" for a reason.  These were "pure" believers who were waiting on Him.  They were not believers in something or someone else.  They were excited and looking forward to attending His feast.  They were waiting all day long and into the night, to the point of exhaustion.  They brought their lamps with them.  They were sincere.  They were prepared - or so they thought.

But then He came.  And they found that they had not enough oil and their lamps had gone out.   So they tried to borrow from those that still had oil.   But the oil is something that can't be received from others.  So they had to go try to go and get some.  But by the time they returned with oil the Bridegroom had already shut the door to the feast and told them that He never knew them.  Imagine the shock and disappointment these believers must have felt.

How many of us think that just because we are believers and are waiting for Him that we will have place at His table?  How many of us have been lulled into a false sense of security because we've been "saved", and now we find ourselves not taking preparation for Him very seriously?   Instead of keeping the Sabbath day holy, do we spend it doing what any non-believer would do?  Instead of loving our enemies, do we curse them and live by the doctrine of an eye for an eye instead?   Instead of taking the Holy Ghost as our guide, do we think we're good to go because we raised our hands and bowed our heads in worship on Sunday morning?  Instead of following the creed of the Good Samaritan, do we pass by in our self-supposed, righteous saved-ness?  Instead of visiting the sick, lifting up the hands that hang down, clothing the naked, and giving rest to the weary, we focus on our own lusts and needs?  How many of us have planted the word in our hearts, but since then have allowed the cares of the world to choke the word and kill it so that we bear no fruit?   How many of us care more about what others think or what the popular trend in religion is than we do about what God says?

I think it's got to be heart deep.  And if it's not, then we need to get right with Him - whether we have once received Him or not.   Because it seems to me that not everyone that says "Lord, Lord" will make it to heaven, both those that actually love Him and actually do His will.


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## hawglips (Sep 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I have tried repenting man's way and it didn't work for me. I tried  what I believe is God's way and it was much more assuring. I believe God's way of repenting is to finally believe that one can't live good enough to save them self and thus must repent or change their mind to a belief that they need Jesus to die for them.



Amen!



Artfuldodger said:


> For many years I believed my salvation was a part of how I must live. I tried to quit sinning but I haven't had much luck living a perfect lifestyle. I do try to live a Holy life but now I'm glad I have a Mediator.
> I guess I finally realized Jesus died for my sins. The sad thing is it took 50 years of my life to be convinced.



If walking on the path He has shown us is a burden, then we aren't doing it His way, and we probably don't truly want what He's offering anyway.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 9, 2014)

formula1 said:


> You know I almost answered you, but I realized you are trying to jump into a conversation between two folks as a third party and you do not belong.  I think you should not make so many assumptions of intent and my knowledge of scripture as 'denominational'.  You have no idea!
> 
> I will simply say that I never excluded '1gr8bldr' from the grace of God and he knows it.



As another non-trinitarian believer I won't go as far as saying the Trinity belief is Satan's false gospel just as I'm not sure a works based salvation belief is Satan's false gospel. 
I did take just a little offence at your choice of words such as "thorns" and "grace and forgiveness is for you, too! Don't miss it!"
As usual I just read too much into your response and apologize for my assumptions. I have read on this forum by others and not you that a Trinity belief was required for salvation so I do get upset when someone says that is a requirement for salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 9, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Think about the parable of the Ten Virgins.  I think He used "virgins" for a reason.  These were "pure" believers who were waiting on Him.  They were not believers in something or someone else.  They were excited and looking forward to attending His feast.  They were waiting all day long and into the night, to the point of exhaustion.  They brought their lamps with them.  They were sincere.  They were prepared - or so they thought.
> 
> But then He came.  And they found that they had not enough oil and their lamps had gone out.   So they tried to borrow from those that still had oil.   But the oil is something that can't be received from others.  So they had to go try to go and get some.  But by the time they returned with oil the Bridegroom had already shut the door to the feast and told them that He never knew them.  Imagine the shock and disappointment these believers must have felt.
> 
> ...



What about this parable of the fall of the tower of Siloam:

Do you think that these Galileans were worse sinners than all the other Galileans, because they suffered in this way? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.”

The person angry with his brother is equally as sinful as a murderer. The man with lust in his heart is as sinful as the adulterer.

Now we should strive to be Holy, but still we have a Saviour who has released us from the burden of sin.
If we could quit sinning then we didn't need Jesus to begin with. The difference is we are washed. 

Remember these verses:
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

We were members of that list but were washed.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 9, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, Christ is the whole of the gospel. It is about the person and work of Christ. Nothing (baptism, rituals, morality, etc.) that I have done... am doing... or will do, will grant me acceptance before the Father.
> 
> Any gospel that places emphasis upon me, is false gospel.
> 
> Christ alone!







Artfuldodger said:


> And that is so true. So is it your belief or do you agree with Pink that a works based salvation is the false gospel we are warned about? What signs or great supernatural feats have you seen accompanied by people teaching this false gospel?



I agree in that works based salvation is a false gospel...but that is not the only one we are warned of.  We are warned that many will come.  

But...pretty much, when you summarize all world religions, they fall into two categories....1) Faith+works and 2) Faith Alone.

One other false gospel that we're warned about in scripture is the reduction of Jesus to merely a good person...a prophet...a god...a son of God, but not God Himself.  To believe that Jesus is not God is to believe in a false gospel.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 9, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> One other false gospel that we're warned about in scripture is the reduction of Jesus to merely a good person...a prophet...a god...a son of God, but not God Himself.  To believe that Jesus is not God is to believe in a false gospel.




What are some verses with these warnings of such things?


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## formula1 (Sep 9, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> As another non-trinitarian believer I won't go as far as saying the Trinity belief is Satan's false gospel just as I'm not sure a works based salvation belief is Satan's false gospel.
> I did take just a little offence at your choice of words such as "thorns" and "grace and forgiveness is for you, too! Don't miss it!"
> As usual I just read too much into your response and apologize for my assumptions. I have read on this forum by others and not you that a Trinity belief was required for salvation so I do get upset when someone says that is a requirement for salvation.



Fair enough! No need to apologize and it's all good. 

For the record, the 'Trinity' is a doctrinal belief in a triune nature of God (i.e. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). 'Trinity' itself is not in the Bible, but what is in the Scriptures is God, Son, and Spirit all working in unity, perhaps different roles but with the same singular purpose to redeem all of God's creation.  It can be seen in many Scriptures.  God is our Father, Jesus is our Savior Lord and King, co-equal in nature yet serves a very different purpose in creation, and the also co-equal Holy Spirit which is the agent to carry God's will to man and empowers man to carry God's will out in the earth.

It's nothing more than that and quite honestly I don't understand the fear of it from some.  The Lord our God is still ... One, from my point of view.

What is required for salvation? Romans 10:5-13! Now does anything I said above about my belief negate the truth of Romans 10? 

I hope this little discussion will bring some freedom to you in your search for God's truth!  God Bless!


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 9, 2014)

I'm thankful that we can "air out" our beliefs. Put them under a microscope, so to speak. Most of all, I'm thankful for this crowd, who is cordial and respectful to those who don't believe the same. We challenge each other, to learn to not only defend our faith but to make a case for it.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2014)

In looking at the triune nature of God, we have God, God's spirit The Holy Spirit, and Jesus.
How does Jesus' spirit/soul fit into the equation? 
If God who is a spirit has a separate spirit,  why doesn't Jesus have a separate spirit/soul? 
Or if Jesus does have a separate spirit/soul, why isn't it a part of the triune?


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In looking at the triune nature of God, we have God, God's spirit The Holy Spirit, and Jesus.
> How does Jesus' spirit/soul fit into the equation?
> If God who is a spirit has a separate spirit,  why doesn't Jesus have a separate spirit/soul?
> Or if Jesus does have a separate spirit/soul, why isn't it a part of the triune?


Acts 2 says he received the promised Spirit of God.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What are some verses with these warnings of such things?



Hebrews deals with this a lot in the first couple of chapters.  

Jude also deals with this (vs 4 specifically).


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## hawglips (Sep 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> In looking at the triune nature of God, we have God, God's spirit The Holy Spirit, and Jesus.
> How does Jesus' spirit/soul fit into the equation?
> If God who is a spirit has a separate spirit,  why doesn't Jesus have a separate spirit/soul?
> Or if Jesus does have a separate spirit/soul, why isn't it a part of the triune?



Seems to me it is part - Jesus' part.

We know that on the cross, his spirit left his body at his death.  And we know that sometime during the time his body lay lifeless in the tomb, his spirit went to preach to the spirits in "prison."  Then his spirit and body reunited at his resurrection, in which united form he ascended into heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Seems to me it is part - Jesus' part.
> 
> We know that on the cross, his spirit left his body at his death.  And we know that sometime during the time his body lay lifeless in the tomb, his spirit went to preach to the spirits in "prison."  Then his spirit and body reunited at his resurrection, in which united form he ascended into heaven.



This spirit that was indeed the spirit of Jesus that went to preach during the physical death of Jesus, was it not different spirit from God? Wasn't it the spirit of Jesus? Does Jesus being born a man not give him a soul/spirit?
I believe as you do that the spirit & body of Jesus reunited at his resurrection/ascencion and are now one in Heaven. 
My point is if Jesus is one in Heaven, why is God separated in Heaven?
I guess another way of saying it is if God has two parts, why doesn't Jesus have two parts? Or why doesn't God have four parts? Then instead of a Trinity it would be a Quadity.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Acts 2 says he received the promised Spirit of God.



We are promised this spirit too if we repent and believe.
But do we not keep our own spirit/soul?
Did Jesus not keep his own spirit/soul when he received the promised Spirit of God?


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 10, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> We are promised this spirit too if we repent and believe.
> But do we not keep our own spirit/soul?
> Did Jesus not keep his own spirit/soul when he received the promised Spirit of God?


My point is the context. Why would Jesus need receive the HS. Why would he be partaker of the promise. Man has a spirit, but not an eternal one. When we receive the new cov promise, we now have become one with an  eternal spirit.


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## hobbs27 (Sep 10, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> My point is the context. Why would Jesus need receive the HS. Why would he be partaker of the promise. Man has a spirit, but not an eternal one. When we receive the new cov promise, we now have become one with an  eternal spirit.



How can man have a spirit until he is born of the spirit?


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> How can man have a spirit until he is born of the spirit?


 "the" spirit is refering to the spirit of God. I think this is assumed understood in the text. ???? But I don't think this saying that no other spirits exist. Not completly sure I am understanding your point???


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> How can man have a spirit until he is born of the spirit?



Most people believe man is born of water with a body, soul, and spirit that is his own. Later if he has a second birth it is from above and of the Spirit of God.
The Holy Spirit is described as a he in some verses and as a gift in other verses. I believe it is more of the gift of the Holy Spirit we receive at our second birth.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 10, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> My point is the context. Why would Jesus need receive the HS. Why would he be partaker of the promise. Man has a spirit, but not an eternal one. When we receive the new cov promise, we now have become one with an  eternal spirit.



I understand, if Jesus was God he wouldn't need anything from God such as his Spirit or power. He wouldn't need to pray to his Father. He wouldn't have his own soul/spirit like Jesus has. He wouldn't need to be anointed. The worse thing is if Jesus didn't have everything I have then he wouldn't have been the perfect man to die to take care of everything I have.
We are all so lucky that he was anointed by his Father and had the power of his Father and our Father.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree in that works based salvation is a false gospel...but that is not the only one we are warned of.  We are warned that many will come.
> 
> But...pretty much, when you summarize all world religions, they fall into two categories....1) Faith+works and 2) Faith Alone.
> 
> One other false gospel that we're warned about in scripture is the reduction of Jesus to merely a good person...a prophet...a god...a son of God, but not God Himself.  To believe that Jesus is not God is to believe in a false gospel.



It appears Jude 1:4 is also against free grace in favor of a works based salvation. Stating: 
ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality.

Meaning recieving the grace of God isn't a licence to sin. Yet we still do. 

There are a few different intepretations of Jude 1:4  that change the way the verse addresses God & Jesus vs just Jesus. Some interpretations seperate God and Jesus and some don't. 

Example:
For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.(one entity)

Another;
For men have obtained entrance, who from the beginning were written with this guilty verdict: “Evil men who pervert the grace of our God into an abomination and deny him who is the only Lord God and our Lord Yeshua The Messiah.” (two different entities)

Another;
For there are certain men crept in unawares without fear or reverence of God, who from beforehand have been ordained unto this condemnation, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness and denying God who alone has dominion, and our Lord Jesus, the Christ.(two different entities)

 Pulpit commemntary on this topic:

The Revised Version, which is more rigorously true to the original here than the Authorized Version, gives an alternative rendering, denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ, in the text, but denying the only Master, and our Lord Jesus Christ in the margin. The question is whether God and Christ are separately mentioned as both objects of the denial, or whether Christ alone is referred to; both the titles, Master and Lord, being applied to him. The question is not easy to decide. Among the strongest arguments in favour of the latter view are the two considerations that the attitude of these men to God has been already stated in the previous clause, and that in 2 Peter 2:1 we find both the verb and the noun which are used here applied to Christ. On the other side, it is urged that the parallel in 1 John 2:22 favours the double reference here; that the title here rendered "Master" is never applied to Christ except in the single instance of 2 Peter 2:1; that the epithet "only" is used more properly of God, as in verse 25 of this same Epistle; that it is difficult to distinguish between the two titles, if both are referred to Christ here; and that the analogous expression in the Book of Enoch (48:10) is to be considered.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 11, 2014)

Jude 1:25 has similar interpretation difficulties:

Jude 1:25
All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.

To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
25. To the only … God our Saviour—The oldest manuscripts add, "through Jesus Christ our Lord." The transcribers, fancying that "Saviour" applied to Christ alone, omitted the words. The sense is, To the only God (the Father) who is our Saviour through (that is, by the mediation of) Jesus Christ our Lord.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 11, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It appears Jude 1:4 is also against free grace in favor of a works based salvation. Stating:
> ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality.
> 
> Meaning recieving the grace of God isn't a licence to sin. Yet we still do.



No...I think you're missing the point of verse.  It isn't free grace in favor of works based salvation.

It is mirroring other passages (specifically Romans 6) that God's grace doesn't mean that we can go on sinning so that God's grace can be magnified.  God's grace covers our sin and the penalty of it (eternal death/separation from God).  That being said, if we were to continue on in un-repentant sin, it would show that we have not put Christ as Lord of our life.

Are we going to have works in our life?  Of course, see James 2.  That being said, is that what brings about Salvation, no.


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## 1gr8bldr (Sep 12, 2014)

The Jude 1;4 verse is talking about leaders/teachers who use the pulpit for their own glory. Like a cop who thinks he has a liscense to speed, they have a liscense to mislead.


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree in that works based salvation is a false gospel...but that is not the only one we are warned of.  We are warned that many will come.
> 
> But...pretty much, when you summarize all world religions, they fall into two categories....1) Faith+works and 2) Faith Alone.
> 
> One other false gospel that we're warned about in scripture is the reduction of Jesus to merely a good person...a prophet...a god...a son of God, but not God Himself.  To believe that Jesus is not God is to believe in a false gospel.



Were you ref. Jude 1:4 as the false gospel of works or the false gospel that Jesus isn't the same as his Father?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 12, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> No...I think you're missing the point of verse.  It isn't free grace in favor of works based salvation.
> 
> It is mirroring other passages (specifically Romans 6) that God's grace doesn't mean that we can go on sinning so that God's grace can be magnified.  God's grace covers our sin and the penalty of it (eternal death/separation from God).  That being said, if we were to continue on in un-repentant sin, it would show that we have not put Christ as Lord of our life.
> 
> Are we going to have works in our life?  Of course, see James 2.  That being said, is that what brings about Salvation, no.



I look at repentance as a one time event. I do understand as you that salvation isn't a license to sin but I don't believe repentance for sin is the same as repentance from sin. Jesus saved me from sin when I repented once. I can ask God to help me not sin and I can pray that I feel bad when I sin and show remorse. This type of repentance if you will is not a part of my salvation. I've already been forgiven of my sins on the cross. I don't need to continue to ask God to forgive me of my sins as he already has. 
If I was to try to do this I would be doing it daily. What if I forgot one day and passed on? I hope this isn't a part of salvation. Every sin I have done in my life I am truly ashamed of but I know God sent Jesus for that reason. 
I do pray to God how remorseful I am when I sin and to help me do better. I strive personally to do better but again my righteousness level isn't a part of my salvation and I'm glad it isn't.

Now one thing I struggle with is in the Lord's Prayer:
Forgive us for our sins, just as we have forgiven those who sinned against us.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 12, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Were you ref. Jude 1:4 as the false gospel of works or the false gospel that Jesus isn't the same as his Father?



I was looking more at it that Jesus is God....but that book is all about false teachers.  Amazing how quickly they sprout up.



Artfuldodger said:


> I look at repentance as a one time event. I do understand as you that salvation isn't a license to sin but I don't believe repentance for sin is the same as repentance from sin. Jesus saved me from sin when I repented once. I can ask God to help me not sin and I can pray that I feel bad when I sin and show remorse. This type of repentance if you will is not a part of my salvation. I've already been forgiven of my sins on the cross. I don't need to continue to ask God to forgive me of my sins as he already has.
> If I was to try to do this I would be doing it daily. What if I forgot one day and passed on? I hope this isn't a part of salvation. Every sin I have done in my life I am truly ashamed of but I know God sent Jesus for that reason.
> I do pray to God how remorseful I am when I sin and to help me do better. I strive personally to do better but again my righteousness level isn't a part of my salvation and I'm glad it isn't.
> 
> ...



I see what you're saying.  I believe that accepting the fact that we have no ability to save ourselves and Jesus' death on the cross covering our sin's death sentence is a one time event (just like you).  I do believe that we are to confess our sins daily (if not more) and repent from them.  That being said, if we don't repent and die before we do, I don't believe that will keep us from eternity with Christ.

So...I think we're pretty close to thinking the same thing.


As far as forgiving others...you're absolutely right. Very difficult to do.  However, if we don't forgive others, the Lord won't forgive us.  Forgiveness of others is a mark of true salvation.


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## hawglips (Sep 12, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> This spirit that was indeed the spirit of Jesus that went to preach during the physical death of Jesus, was it not different spirit from God? Wasn't it the spirit of Jesus? Does Jesus being born a man not give him a soul/spirit?
> I believe as you do that the spirit & body of Jesus reunited at his resurrection/ascencion and are now one in Heaven.
> My point is if Jesus is one in Heaven, why is God separated in Heaven?



I don't figure He is separated.



Artfuldodger said:


> I guess another way of saying it is if God has two parts, why doesn't Jesus have two parts? Or why doesn't God have four parts? Then instead of a Trinity it would be a Quadity.



The Father, The Son, and the Holy Ghost.   If we're counting "bodies" and spirits, it might be a Quintity.


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