# Shortening a barrell



## Fortenberry (Dec 16, 2009)

I have a stevens model 200 in 308, It is the same thing as the savage 110. It has a 22 inch barrel on it and I was wondering how much a gun smith would charge to shorten the barrell and recrown it? How short would you go?


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## killitgrillit (Dec 16, 2009)

My gunsmith charges $45 to cut and put a target crown on the barrel. 18" would make for a nice fast handling treestand gun.


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## repoman34 (Dec 16, 2009)

I'm not sure on the pricing, but I believe (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), that the shortest you're legally allowed to go is 18". With a .308, I don't think I'd shorten it at all. Shortening your barrel takes a lot away from accuracy, and adds more recoil. .308 is a good round for long range shots. I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.


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## bighonkinjeep (Dec 16, 2009)

I saw one that had the 16" stainless striker barrel with the adjustable brake on it installed and a foreward mounted holosight. That was a very nice scout rifle.
 Unless youre having a problem with it(damaged crown etc.) I'd leave it alone.
The surest way to find out would be to call a couple of smiths and ask em how much to cut er down and recrown. After you get the price you may check into having whatever length/caliber custom barrel made. Barrel swapping on Savages is a piece of cake but highly addictive.


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## JustUs4All (Dec 16, 2009)

repoman34 said:


> I'm not sure on the pricing, but I believe (somebody correct me if I'm wrong), that the shortest you're legally allowed to go is 18". With a .308, I don't think I'd shorten it at all. Shortening your barrel takes a lot away from accuracy, and adds more recoil. .308 is a good round for long range shots. I say if it ain't broke, don't fix it.



There is a lot wrong with this post.  

Shortest barrel is 16 inches without ATF permit.
Shortening a barrel takes nothing away from the accuracy and may actually improve it due to increased stiffness.
Shortening may increase preceived recoil because of additional noise, but not actual recoil.
It does cost a little in velocity.


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## seaweaver (Dec 16, 2009)

JustUs4All said:


> There is a lot wrong with this post.
> 
> Shortest barrel is 16 inches without ATF permit.
> Shortening a barrel takes nothing away from the accuracy and may actually improve it due to increased stiffness.
> ...





yep.

Accuracy?  My son shot a doe 2 weeks ago at 150y w/ the 16" barrel 3030 Marlin I cut for him.
Wish I had been there!

I have cut many barrels and recrowned them myself.
The cut needs to be a square as possible ...which means a square on a tapered barrel needs to show the same gap all the way around the barrel face. If you can stick tape evenly all the way around, you can cut it. I use an air cut off but a hand hack saw provides more control. It's not difficult at all to cut. I face w/ a RO sander and 220g. Polish w/ rouge or heavy compound. I crown w/ an over sized round head brass screw w/ a dab of the same compound attached to a drill. tow or three touches and you are done.
I did  my inlaw's TC .308 and it (like my son's) turned out great. 
If you are of the habit of banging your barrel face into things you will want to recess the crown. So far...w/ short barrels that do not reach my ankle carrying the guns barrel down..I have not run into anything w/ my re-crowns.
The short barrel in a stand or brush is great.

TC .(I soda blasted the finish to dull as it was a mirror after polish)


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## olchevy (Dec 17, 2009)

just a heads up

NOTICE: Yes the legal limit is 16'' on rifles and 18'' on shotguns
*BUT THAT IS WITH THE LARGEST ROUND IN THE CHAMBER!*(If your shotgun can shoot up to a 3-1/2'' shell thats what has to go in, if you put a 2-3/4'' in and cut right at 18'' you will be 3/4'' short and in BIG TROUBLE)It is mesured by loading a round and sticking a dowel rod down the barrel to see mesurment.I had cut down my marlin to 16'' visually......that was a BIG NO NO.......so now i have tig welded on a flash suppressor to it to bring it back up to legal specs.looks pretty cool i think, I have never seen anyone with a flashsuppressor on a marlin .30-30 lever.


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## Twenty five ought six (Dec 17, 2009)

olchevy said:


> just a heads up
> 
> NOTICE: Yes the legal limit is 16'' on rifles and 18'' on shotguns
> *BUT THAT IS WITH THE LARGEST ROUND IN THE CHAMBER!*(If your shotgun can shoot up to a 3-1/2'' shell thats what has to go in, if you put a 2-3/4'' in and cut right at 18'' you will be 3/4'' short and in BIG TROUBLE)It is mesured by loading a round and sticking a dowel rod down the barrel to see mesurment.I had cut down my marlin to 16'' visually......that was a BIG NO NO.......so now i have tig welded on a flash suppressor to it to bring it back up to legal specs.looks pretty cool i think, I have never seen anyone with a flashsuppressor on a marlin .30-30 lever.



 Sorry, but the information in blue is* absolutely *and *totally* wrong.

Barrels are measured by putting the gun in battery (bolt closed, and locked in place) _with no round in the chamber _, inserting a dowel so that it rests against the bolt face, and marking the end of the barrel on the dowel.  The measurement from the end of the dowel to the mark is the length of the barrel.

A 16" barrel for a .22 Hornet is exactly the same length (16") as a .375 H&H magnum.

A 18" shotgun barrel chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells is exactly as long as a barrel chambered for 3.5" shells.


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## NOYDB (Dec 17, 2009)

Just wondering. So I searched. 

Apparently the ATF hasn't bothered to put it in writing. If someone has other info please post. The "concensus" seems to be measured on an empty chamber from a closed breech to the muzzle.



> A short barreled rifle is a rifle (which is defined as a shoulder
> fired, rifled bore firearm) with a barrel length of less than 16",
> or an overall length of less than 26", or any weapon made from a
> rifle falling into the same length parameters (like a pistol made
> ...





> Jay12-03-2008, 01:13 PM
> Well, I got tired of scouring the ATF website, and called them this morning. I called the Indiana office 1-317-287-3500 and asked about measuring the length of a shotgun/rifle barrel and what exactly was required to determine barrel length.
> 
> Agent Said...
> ...





> The Fed gage that I saw actrually being used was a lathe turned steel bar of .380" diameter and EXACTLY 18" in length.
> The bar is date certified as being calibrated to meet the length.
> The bar is dropped down the barrel of the questionable gun and allowed to rest on the closed bolt or breechface.
> If so much as one millimeter of that lathe turned bar extends above the muzzle of the questionable gun, the owner better be calling his lawyer because he is going to jail.
> ...



Anyone have a source to a court ruling or official ATF info?


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## Twenty five ought six (Dec 17, 2009)

For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral 
chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the 
distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech 
block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall 
length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between 
the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the 
center line of the bore.


27 CFR 179.11, definition "firearm"

As to the "how", I've watched ATF use the dowel method.  As far as I know the "method" of taking the measurement is not stated in writing.  You could do it with a piece of string and a weight.  I've never heard of anyone making an issue of the method.  The mis-information about different chamber lengths making a difference keeps popping up though.

I've also seen advice to measure a shotgun barrel off the gun.  In minimal cases this lead to a barrel that is too short, as many shotguns (most) lock up with the bolt part way up the barrel extension.


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## seaweaver (Dec 17, 2009)

Old chevy, That was a 20" marlin before you cut it.
Measure the drop and what you have remaining....and add it to the length of the barrel  to thereceiver...it will be about 19.25 That is because the  barrel ends at the bolt face!

cw


ps....now lets see that flash suppressor weld job!!!!
cw


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## olchevy (Dec 17, 2009)

seaweaver said:


> Old chevy, That was a 20" marlin before you cut it.
> Measure the drop and what you have remaining....and add it to the length of the barrel  to thereceiver...it will be about 19.25 That is because the  barrel ends at the bolt face!
> 
> cw
> ...



DANGIT,DANGIT,DANGIT,DANGIT.............I just called the ATF  office for atlanta, and yall are right it is with closed breach, UNLOADED!!!!

I am mad now because I had one of my cut down shotgun barrels destroyed to stay legal,and welded on the flash suppressor to my marlin when both were fine to begin with...................ahhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ill post a picture but it is pretty ugly right now I am still doing the shaping to it to make it flow right.....

Note:
 the agent I spoke to said she is going to put in a notice to make the online statement clear as to how its mesured, and send a notice out to local LE departments state wide if she can, so people wont be confused and get in trouble. 

The reasoning on her doing this was after I told here I have spoken to police officers, Lueitiants, deputies, a Sherriff, and a FBI agent and have recieved different answers.


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## repoman34 (Dec 17, 2009)

JustUs4All said:


> Shortening a barrel takes nothing away from the accuracy and may actually improve it due to increased stiffness.
> Shortening may increase preceived recoil because of additional noise, but not actual recoil.




So, I guess everything the Army taught me about guns was wrong? Is that what you're telling me?

I'll use a pistol for example, since the effects are a lot more noticeable in them than in a rifle. In this case my example will be with a .357 mag firing at 25 yards.

You're telling me that barrel length doesn't take away from accuracy?
Take a .357, with a 6" barrel, put me 6 rounds down range at 25 yards.
Next, take a .357 with a 3" barrel, and put me 6 rounds down range also at 25 yards.
Then come back here and tell me there's no difference in accuracy, or recoil for that matter.

My argument isn't that you can't still hit your target from long range, it's simply that you can't hit it as accurately with a shortened barrel.
Perfect example with a rifle: Compare an M16, to an M4. Essentially, they are the same weapon, only one has a shorter barrel than the other. At long range, an M16 is FAR MORE ACCURATE than an M4. Why? BARREL LENGTH.

Now on to recoil. With a longer barrel, the gasses cover more area, meaning that it's spread out more in a longer barrel, than in a shorter barrel. The more gasses you have coming out at the muzzle at one time, causes more recoil. Hence the reason that the .357 with the 6" barrel, doesn't kick nearly as bad as the one with the 3".


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## Cknerr (Dec 17, 2009)

Not so literal. Most of the accuracy is accomplished by a barrel as short as 21". Your desired muzzle velocity would not be reached, but it will hit what you are aiming at. This is where some pretty hot loads are used to get the desired velocity. 

It is a compromise -short barrel length for stiffness and fewer flaws vs. long barrels for higher velocities. I go by the math to size lengths so I end at a harmonic sweet spot.  

Pistol barrels are too short to get accuracy from and almost universally have lower muzzle velocity. 3" in a pistol barrel makes night and day difference. Rifle barrels with 3" difference does not make a lot of change - mostly a few hundred feet per second is all. 

Hope that helps,
Chris


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## Twenty five ought six (Dec 17, 2009)

> You're telling me that barrel length doesn't take away from accuracy?
> Take a .357, with a 6" barrel, put me 6 rounds down range at 25 yards.
> Next, take a .357 with a 3" barrel, and put me 6 rounds down range also at 25 yards.
> Then come back here and tell me there's no difference in accuracy, or recoil for that matter.



There is no inherent difference in accuracy.  Put both pistols in a Ransom Rest, and the will shoot the same size groups.  I've got a couple of Dan Wessons with everything from a 2" barrel to an 8" barrel if you want to test this.

The SHOOTER however can usually shoot a longer barreled pistol better, because the longer barrel gives him a long sight radius, which in turn allows him to take a "finer" hold on the target.  The longer sight radius allows you to notice more movement of the front sight relative to the rear sight.

Put a scope on a gun, and even the advantage of the longer barrel is lost, which is why benchrest shooters can use such short barrels.


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## JustUs4All (Dec 17, 2009)

repoman34 said:


> So, I guess everything the Army taught me about guns was wrong? Is that what you're telling me?
> 
> I'll use a pistol for example, since the effects are a lot more noticeable in them than in a rifle. In this case my example will be with a .357 mag firing at 25 yards.
> 
> ...



Probably not everything the Army taught you was wrong, but certainly some of it was.

The apparent increased accuracy in a longer barreled pistol comes from the increased sight radius allowed by the longer barrel.  I say apparent because there is no actual increase i accuracy in the longer barrel.

I have never fired an M4 it may be inherently less accurate than the M16, but this will not be due to barrel length.  In identical rifles a shorter Barrel may produce less velocity if the propellant burn has not completed by the time the projectile leaves the barrel.  This loss of velocity may produce an apparent decrease in accuracy because the trajectory of the projectile will not be as flat, requiring the shooter to be concerned about this phenomenon sooner.  It probably will not have any real noticeable difference on human or deer sized targets out to 250 to 300 yards.  Again this is an apparent reduction in accuracy not a real one.  

Now on to recoil.  Lets assume the same rounds are being fired in identical rifles except that one has a shorter barrel. At the instant of the ignition of the propellant all forces are identical.  
At the point at which the projectiles have been forced six inches down the tube all forces are identical.  
At the point at which the projectiles have been forced twelve inches down the tube all forces are identical.
At the point at which the projectiles have been forced fourteen inches down the tube all forces are identical. 
Then the projectile leaves the sorter barrel.  Here rearward forces from the burn cease as the forces now exit at the place of least resistance, the muzzle.
In the longer barrel, if there is still an expansion of gasses the forces to the rear (recoil) continue until the projectile exits the longer barrel.  Technically increasing the force of the recoil for the longer barreled rifle.  This is probably overcome by the fact that the longer barrel increases the weight of the weapon enough for its inertia to negate the additional recoil.  

Now I said that the perceived recoil could be higher in the rifle with the shorter barrel.  That is because there will probably be a louder muzzle blast produced by the shorter barrel.  Most people perceive this as recoil, but it is not.  It is just noise.

The difference in recoil between your 6 inch revolver and your 3 inch revolver is due to the weight differences and not the barrel lengths.  You are also reacting to additional muzzle blast.  

The Army probably taught you pretty good, they just didn't get everything exactly right.  
Most of us never do.


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## Slingblade (Dec 17, 2009)

Longer sight radius not barrel length is what makes a gun seem more accurate.  The longer a barrel the more it whips with the shot, a shorter barrel of the same material and diameter will be much stiffer and won't resonate as much.


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## repoman34 (Dec 17, 2009)

> In identical rifles a shorter Barrel may produce less velocity if the propellant burn has not completed by the time the projectile leaves the barrel.  This loss of velocity may produce an apparent decrease in accuracy because the trajectory of the projectile will not be as flat, requiring the shooter to be concerned about this phenomenon sooner.



Exactly what I'm getting at. Decreased velocity equals lower accuracy at longer ranges. Your round starts to fall sooner, giving you a higher chance of not hitting your mark (at least with the first shot) at longer range. If the round starts to fall sooner than before, guess what that means? You've just decreased your accuracy, even if it is my only a small amount.


Also, somebody up above said something about putting the pistols in a ransom rest to do the accuracy test. That's kind of like cheating, don't you think? Do you carry one of those around with you everywhere you go? We're talking about setting a gun up for use in the field, not for firing from a table somewhere with a gun vise and a piece of string to pull the trigger. Anybody can hit thier target that way.


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## Twenty five ought six (Dec 17, 2009)

> Decreased velocity equals lower accuracy at longer ranges.



Again, that's simply not true as a global statement.  Very few benchrest shooters or National Match shooters shoot max. velocity rounds.





> Also, somebody up above said something about putting the pistols in a ransom rest to do the accuracy test. That's kind of like cheating, don't you think? Do you carry one of those around with you everywhere you go? We're talking about setting a gun up for use in the field, not for firing from a table somewhere with a gun vise and a piece of string to pull the trigger. Anybody can hit thier target that way.



That was me, and you were the one who brought up the relative accuracy of pistols with different length barrels.  Ransom rest is how you prove or disprove that assertion.   if you don't like the method of proving it, don't make the assertion.


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## JustUs4All (Dec 17, 2009)

Different trajectories do not make one rifle more or less accurate than another.  The accuracy of the piece is the measure of the ability of the piece to repeatedly place a projectile in the same location relative to where the sights are held.  The test of he pistols held in a device would be the best way to determine the accuracy of the pistols.

The accuracy of the shooter now is an entirely different matter.  I think that you have these two concepts confused.  Probably the Army's fault though.


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## Fortenberry (Dec 17, 2009)

I didn't realize I was in middle school with a bunch of fussing girls. I guess let me rephrase this. Will it affect it at 200-250 yards and what is the going price for this?


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## olchevy (Dec 17, 2009)

Read this artice by a swat team regarding the old school of thought on barrel length vs. accuracy in a full power rifle a .308
It basically says that on a .308 that a barrel any longer than 20'' is wasted barrel unless you want to shoot 165+grain bullets.
The difference bettween a 26'' barrel and a 20'' barrel accuracy wise is hardly any different out to 800M. Actually in some cases shortening the barrel helps the accuracy.
Just read it!

http://www.tacticaloperations.com/SWATbarrel/


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## reel2rifle (Dec 17, 2009)

I find this subject interesting.  I was given a book by a friend and the book is called "HATCHERS NOTEBOOK".  I've anyone is interested in a laymans approch to a very techincal subject go find the book read once.  Then again, and maybe again. 

Front Page Data:

Hatcher's Note Book

By Major General Julian S. Hatcher

ISBN = 0811707954


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## jglenn (Dec 17, 2009)

typical price would be from 40 50 to have it done

while there are no absolutes when you shorten the barrel it most likely will not affect your accuracy at all. a new crown job my actually help.


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## jglenn (Dec 17, 2009)

velocity has little to do with accuracy. As noted, the benchrest crowd rarely shoots any thing close to max loads.  they simply look for the most accurate load( mechanical accuracy not how well the shooter does his job)


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## Fortenberry (Dec 17, 2009)

Thank you, Jglenn!!


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## JustUs4All (Dec 17, 2009)

Fortenberry said:


> I didn't realize I was in middle school with a bunch of fussing girls. I guess let me rephrase this. Will it affect it at 200-250 yards and what is the going price for this?



Barrel length will not effect accuracy at all at 200 to 250 yards.  How well the barrel is crowned will make more of a difference and how well you make the shot will make the most difference.  You ought to be able to get it done for about $50.

Bunch of fussing girls, really now, why the name calling?  Remember, Santa is watching you.


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## repoman34 (Dec 17, 2009)

olchevy said:


> Read this artice by a swat team regarding the old school of thought on barrel length vs. accuracy in a full power rifle a .308
> It basically says that on a .308 that a barrel any longer than 20'' is wasted barrel unless you want to shoot 165+grain bullets.
> The difference bettween a 26'' barrel and a 20'' barrel accuracy wise is hardly any different out to 800M. Actually in some cases shortening the barrel helps the accuracy.
> Just read it!
> ...



I stand corrected.


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## seaweaver (Dec 18, 2009)

Sometimes you can learn alot from fussing FB.
besides the easy answers...free to $40 and yes!
Now we all have a partial degree in physics!
cw


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## Fortenberry (Dec 18, 2009)

olchevy, that was a very good informative article. Thank you for sharing that


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