# Job?



## Cutem all Jack (Feb 17, 2011)

I have been reading Job latley and i cant understand why God would allowed the devil to do what he did to Job?

What did God have to prove to the devil or the people who surrounded Job? 

What are yall opinions on this?


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## Huntinfool (Feb 17, 2011)

What happened to Job....ultimately is that God blessed him beyond measure and his family....because of his faith.

That's just what happened here on earth.  Imagine Job's stature in heaven.  

Let's not get too caught up in what "happens" to us here on earth.  We are not promised an easy road as a follower of Christ.

Now, that said, let me just say that IMO, what happened to Job had very little to do with anything that Job did to "deserve" it.  He was the guy that God chose to use to illustrate his power and to illustrate the power of a TRUE believer.

Think about it this way.  God allowed his own son to be beaten mercilessly, hung on a cross and killed like a common criminal.

Who is Job?


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## decoyed (Feb 17, 2011)

what are the chances bud...same thing we have been reading to get us through our loss. Hang in there pal.


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## gtparts (Feb 17, 2011)

Cutem all Jack said:


> I have been reading Job latley and i cant understand why God would allowed the devil to do what he did to Job?
> 
> What did God have to prove to the devil or the people who surrounded Job?
> 
> What are yall opinions on this?



What Huntinfool said is putting the things of life into proper perspective. It might also be noted that Job's attachments to the blessings God provided were keeping Job from being all that he was meant to be. When God finally speaks to Job in the latter part of the story, we get to see how Job had let his blessings give him a false sense of security. 

The great question in life is this: 
When you have lost everything else, is God enough? 

Job came to realize that, indeed, God was and is all anyone needs!


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## rjcruiser (Feb 17, 2011)

Who are we to question God?

Why is it so difficult for us to realize that scripture says something so it is.  Even if we don't really comprehend it, if God says it, it is.  As Christians, we don't have the luxury of questioning God and His motives or His reasons.  We just need to understand that He loves us and that He has our best interest in mind.

I believe the NT book of James explains it a bit as well.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 17, 2011)

I think the question was asked by one who is in the midst of a storm.

Having been in the midst of something as terrible as I could imagine in my life, I can understand the tendency to ask "why?".  

I suppose I would ask this question:  After looking back on his life at the end...do you think Job was ultimately grateful for having gone through what he did?  I suspect the answer to that question is an emphatic YES!

Sometimes we cannot see through the storm when we're in the middle of it.  Time often gives us great perspective.


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## Cutem all Jack (Feb 17, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I think the question was asked by one who is in the midst of a storm.
> 
> Having been in the midst of something as terrible as I could imagine in my life, I can understand the tendency to ask "why?".
> 
> ...



I guess you are right in about every cense with what your say. I know its not right to question God and i would never want to do it but in a way i guess i have. 

Its just kinda hard to understand when you read to "call on him and he will answer" and then flip to Job and read that the Godliest man of his time cryed out to God and got no response for a period of time. I guess its just my impatiant nature that you want God and you want him right now!! 

Patience is a virtue that i need some work on.


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## crackerdave (Feb 17, 2011)

Don't we _all!_


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## toddboucher (Feb 17, 2011)

I sorry I thought you were offering a job.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 17, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I think the question was asked by one who is in the midst of a storm.
> 
> Having been in the midst of something as terrible as I could imagine in my life, I can understand the tendency to ask "why?".
> 
> ...



And I think you've hit the correct perspective.

My wife and I and our daughter have had to weather some pretty terrible situations in life.  Things that can make a person give up on life.  Things that might cause a person to doubt God's love.
But we now sit here in life living the greatest blessed life that a person or family could hope to live.
It could not be better.  Oh, we could have more money or time off, but we grown beyond measuring life by those silly things.
The life of Job tells us that no matter what life brings you, God will see you through it.  And, like Job, the blessings will be placed in perspective.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 17, 2011)

Cutem all Jack said:


> I have been reading Job latley and i cant understand why God would allowed the devil to do what he did to Job?
> 
> What did God have to prove to the devil or the people who surrounded Job?
> 
> What are yall opinions on this?



a) Why God would allowed the devil to do what he did to Job? Because God allows us freewill and He allows "the devil" to tempt all of us, Job being one of us. However the temptation in Job is very important because it plays on righteousness.  Job was so righteous he accused God of being unjust. Therefore Job was his own devil, which is why I put quotation marks above to :the devil. 

Job is the accuser of God, of the Holy, of the Just, etc. That is the role we give the devil yes, the role of accuser, but in this case it was Job accusing God! This is the true work of the devil and not giving the pox to the poor soul--because we all get the pox and we all suffer from afflictions similar to those visited on Job to some degree...but they are simply part of life. What is devilish here is that we would blame God for it and this is what Job is doing.... ( Often today we can hear this complaint when someone ( a parent perhaps)  says there is no God, because so and so ( children) died young or in a vehicle accident etc... or a calamaty happens and many die etc..)

b) What did God have to prove to the devil or the people who surrounded Job?

God did not have to prove anything. In fact it is laughable that Job should have Him prove that He(God) was just! Don't you think? However, He did show Job his error in two ways. The young buy stander in the story gives the wise fools an earfull about how they had the cart before the ox...so to speak and then God himself ministers to Job.

Basically what God says is "Job I love you but you are not my God, doesn't matter how "good" you are!  And your questionable spotless spiritual life, your worship, is not the top of the spiritual food chain. Get over it. There is yet better."

It is my opinion that in Job, God shows us that our relationship with Him is extremely important and that deeds done from pride no mater if we are aware of them or not are in no way comparable to deeds done from the heart with the relationship in mind--a relationship where He is God.

I think Paul said love was not pride, or boasting. If love is not this; nor is God.

The patience of Job for me is a tongue in cheek thing. Job had spiritual stubborness and tenacity. God had all the patience. And again did not Paul say love was patient and long suffering... LOL


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## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2011)

I never really got the story of Job, I thought WOW that's a little extreme, but thought, probably it's about restoration.

Sometimes when things really get hard for me, especially being a woman trying to do a 'man's' job, like dealing with my car or doing something too hard for me to do, I say, " God, please, my name is not Job".

And in the past 2 years after losing my job, after many years, and a disability, blah blah blah, I say, sheesh, I'm broker than Job's turkey....and I am.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 18, 2011)

Cutem all Jack said:


> I guess you are right in about every cense with what your say. I know its not right to question God and i would never want to do it but in a way i guess i have.
> 
> Its just kinda hard to understand when you read to "call on him and he will answer" and then flip to Job and read that the Godliest man of his time cryed out to God and got no response for a period of time. I guess its just my impatiant nature that you want God and you want him right now!!
> 
> Patience is a virtue that i need some work on.



We've all been there.  For me, it wasn't so much the patience thing, but the control thing.  Giving up that "being in control" attitude/perspective is a difficult thing to do.

Prayers sent that the Lord would continue to give you the strength to weather the storm!  Keep running the race!


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## StriperAddict (Feb 18, 2011)

The answers here got me thinking of an old Marty McCall/Fireworks song, "It all comes down to you"....
<object height="390" width="480">


<embed src="http://www.youtube-nocookie.com/v/vnW4zlh1Wy4?fs=1&hl=en_US&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" height="390" width="480"></object>

Pretty powerful!


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## emtguy (Feb 20, 2011)

the devil was allowed to mess with job b/c he had a "legal" right to b/c of jobs one sin..." the thing i feared has come upon me" was what he said basically and even though he was a perfect man and that gave satan the entrance he needed...see job was consumed with worry and fear of him and mostly his sons offending God and loosing everything he was blessed with.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2011)

emtguy said:


> the devil was allowed to mess with job b/c he had a "legal" right to b/c of jobs one sin..." the thing i feared has come upon me" was what he said basically and even though he was a perfect man and that gave satan the entrance he needed...see job was consumed with worry and fear of him and mostly his sons offending God and loosing everything he was blessed with.



I don't think you're going to get a lot of folks to agree with you on the above.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

emtguy said:


> the devil was allowed to mess with job b/c he had a "legal" right to b/c of jobs one sin..." the thing i feared has come upon me" was what he said basically and even though he was a perfect man and that gave satan the entrance he needed...see job was consumed with worry and fear of him and mostly his sons offending God and loosing everything he was blessed with.



I do agree with you. These were Job's thorns.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2011)

emtguy said:


> even though he was a perfect man and that gave satan the entrance he needed...



Where do you get that Job was a perfect man?




			
				emtguy said:
			
		

> see job was consumed with worry and fear of him and mostly his sons offending God and loosing everything he was blessed with.



This might have been, but again, where is this coming from?


Seems to me you have to read a lot between the lines to get the above thoughts.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Where do you get that Job was a perfect man?
> 
> 
> From the story as he and his friends try to figure out why he is cursed.
> ...



There are lots of thoughts to a serious study of Job. Most of them are from the lines, in my view.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> There are lots of thoughts to a serious study of Job. Most of them are from the lines, in my view.



I think you and emtguy both are being quite presumptuous in rendering the above opinions.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2011)

8The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."


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## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> There are lots of thoughts to a serious study of Job. Most of them are from the lines, in my view.



Using one's sanctified imagination is not always a bad thing....but when it starts to go against other doctrines or scriptures, it is dangerous.

There was no perfect man/woman to walk the earth other than Christ.  All have sinned and fall short.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I think you and emtguy both are being quite presumptuous in rendering the above opinions.



And so it was with Noah for caulking his planks.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> 8The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil."



If he was as indicated above, why would God read him the Riot Act at the end of Job?

Chapter 38 ( God talks to Job.)
1.Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,

2.Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

3. Gird up now your loins like a man, and I will demand of you and you declare to Me.

4.Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Declare to Me, if you have and know understanding.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If he was as indicated above, why would God read him the Riot Act at the end of Job?


Because Job didn't quite get the humility part until the very end. 
Restoration came after he "repented in dust and ashes". *Job 42:6*


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2011)

I copied this from an old post of mine; Job Context, I posted this on another forumn some time back. Many people see many things in the book of Job. But there is a central theme or context within that carries through the whole of scripture. In the so-called Christian circles that I have been envolved with have always claimed "patience of Job"but this myth needs to be busted.------ Lets begin, Job was willing to give up his wealth, family and health without sinning. But Job was not willing to give up his intergrity. He argued long with his companions, over and over. But Job was a righteous man, he did help widows and orphans also giving to the poor. Think how Jesus was just the opposite of Job. While he was innocent of every charge, he did not even defend himself yet Job could not let go of his intergrity. Let me give a poor example; think of a girl so pretty that she never ever needed makeup. She was so pretty she never needed it. Job was a good man but he never realized his need for a saviour. Jesus came to save sinners not the righteous. God knew what was in Jobs heart, problem was, Job didn't. Chapter after chapter he argues with his friends. "So the three men stopped answering Job because he was righteous in his own eyes". How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God. [spiritually speaking] But God loved Job to much. So he "handed him over to Satan". Through this turn of events, Job saw his spiritual pride and realized that before God his righteous "was as filthy rags". God rebukes those he loves for their own good, he's always at work. This is where we get the NT example of "handing someone over to Satan"[1 tim 1:20] we are saved by Gods mercy and grace. Here we see the intent is not for punishment but reconcilation. 1 Cor 5:5 "hand this man over to Satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. So did Job learn anything or not? I think so, verse 40:4, I am unworthy, how can I reply to you? Notice that Elihu was not included in the ones Job prayed for. I suspect he gave good counsel since he essentially said the same thing that God said. Elihu's point, " I did not get what I deserved".This wraps up the context of Job. Maybe if I find time I will relate this with NT context. As always, people don't agree about everything, that's ok, I won't take it personal.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> Because Job didn't quite get the humility part until the very end.
> Restoration came after he "repented in dust and ashes". *Job 42:6*





This is my point. I agree.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I copied this from an old post of mine; Job Context, I posted this on another forumn some time back. Many people see many things in the book of Job. But there is a central theme or context within that carries through the whole of scripture. In the so-called Christian circles that I have been envolved with have always claimed "patience of Job"but this myth needs to be busted.------ Lets begin, Job was willing to give up his wealth, family and health without sinning. But Job was not willing to give up his intergrity. He argued long with his companions, over and over. But Job was a righteous man, he did help widows and orphans also giving to the poor. Think how Jesus was just the opposite of Job. While he was innocent of every charge, he did not even defend himself yet Job could not let go of his intergrity. Let me give a poor example; think of a girl so pretty that she never ever needed makeup. She was so pretty she never needed it. Job was a good man but he never realized his need for a saviour. Jesus came to save sinners not the righteous. God knew what was in Jobs heart, problem was, Job didn't. Chapter after chapter he argues with his friends. "So the three men stopped answering Job because he was righteous in his own eyes". How hard it is for the rich to enter the Kingdom of God. [spiritually speaking] But God loved Job to much. So he "handed him over to Satan". Through this turn of events, Job saw his spiritual pride and realized that before God his righteous "was as filthy rags". God rebukes those he loves for their own good, he's always at work. This is where we get the NT example of "handing someone over to Satan"[1 tim 1:20] we are saved by Gods mercy and grace. Here we see the intent is not for punishment but reconcilation. 1 Cor 5:5 "hand this man over to Satan so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. So did Job learn anything or not? I think so, verse 40:4, I am unworthy, how can I reply to you? Notice that Elihu was not included in the ones Job prayed for. I suspect he gave good counsel since he essentially said the same thing that God said. Elihu's point, " I did not get what I deserved".This wraps up the context of Job. Maybe if I find time I will relate this with NT context. As always, people don't agree about everything, that's ok, I won't take it personal.



I like your reading and your linking it to the Gospel.


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## emtguy (Feb 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't think you're going to get a lot of folks to agree with you on the above.



Ronnie, they aint got to agree for me to be right...ask elijah and noah.

Satan also had a "legal" right into the garden...you know why? B/c eve added to Gods word making it a lie...see all it takes is one grain of salt to leventh the entire lump...a half truth is a whole lie and eve added " we shall not touch" the fruit and BAM satan pounced...God said dont eat it, he said nothing about touching it, thats all satan needed to start the discourse..i beleive if she woulda quoted Gods word just like Jesus did satan would have HAD to leave to never return....
When we give satan a "opening" from job to eve to now he is going to take it...

P.S
Eve didnt cause the fall of man, Adam did...he told adam not to eat the fruit, not eve. Adam shoulda been the "man of the house" and rebuked satan and all would be well but like us dumb men he succumed to his wife. LOL


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## emtguy (Feb 21, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Where do you get that Job was a perfect man?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
JOB1:8
KJV

You see where i got it at now? You ought to read job before telling me im reading into it.

See jesus was not the only perfect man( according to the bible) that ever lived, and to top that off anyone who makes it to heaven will be perfect to...See in Matt 5:48 jesus tell us to " be ye PERFECT,therfore, as your father in heaven is PERFECT....

It like this, a orange tree has buds on it, they are not a perfect orange yet, but if they keep growing and taking in sunlight oneday they will be a perfect orange and at each stage of their growth they are perfect as long as they do their nature that god put in em...christians are like this in gods eyes...as long as we continue in that new nature he instilled in us we are on the way to being a perfect orange!LOL


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## emtguy (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I like your reading and your linking it to the Gospel.



While he was innocent of every charge, he did not even defend himself 

You stated the above in your post, I would like to explain that Jesus could have defended himself but he didnt and there is a reason why...John 5:19 answers it...Jesus didnt answer pilot b/c the father did'nt answer him...Jesus only did what the father did first...even if he wanted to answer he didnt b/c it was " not my will but thine be done"


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## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> If he was as indicated above, why would God read him the Riot Act at the end of Job?
> 
> Chapter 38 ( God talks to Job.)
> 1.Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said,
> ...



Wow!  Verse 2 can even be applicable to some of the recent comments.
One of the ways for a teacher to prove himself unreliable to me is when he begins teaching things that the scripture never intended.

There are times when we can seem to have a Bible knowledge that goes beyond the spiritual wisdom God has to give us.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2011)

emtguy said:


> Ronnie, they aint got to agree for me to be right...ask elijah and noah.
> 
> Satan also had a "legal" right into the garden...you know why? B/c eve added to Gods word making it a lie...see all it takes is one grain of salt to leventh the entire lump...a half truth is a whole lie and eve added " we shall not touch" the fruit and BAM satan pounced...God said dont eat it, he said nothing about touching it, thats all satan needed to start the discourse..i beleive if she woulda quoted Gods word just like Jesus did satan would have HAD to leave to never return....
> When we give satan a "opening" from job to eve to now he is going to take it...
> ...



"Legal right" ??????  Why are you applying what appears to be Jewish and Christian principals to the garden?
You're trying to figure out the Devine using a human brain.  God never purposed to give us insight into the principals of the garden.

This isn't a conversation I want to get involved in but I'll leave you with this, based on your above statement:
What came first, Satan's temptation of Eve, or Eve's temptation of Adam?  Eve didn't give Satan the right, Satan was already there!


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## gordon 2 (Feb 22, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Wow!  Verse 2 can even be applicable to some of the recent comments.
> One of the ways for a teacher to prove himself unreliable to me is when he begins teaching things that the scripture never intended.
> 
> There are times when we can seem to have a Bible knowledge that goes beyond the spiritual wisdom God has to give us.




2.Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?


A counsel or a counselor gives advice, more particularly in legal matters.  U.K. and Ireland. The legal system in England uses the term counsel.

 Quote: One of the ways for a teacher to prove himself unreliable to me is when he begins teaching things that the scripture never intended

This is not the accusation that tacked Jesus to the cross, sawed the prophets in half and hung the appostles by the achiles?

I am after truth just as I have taken a wife. I did not chose her for the counsels of men, but rather from the designs of God.

I am a bit surprised that studying the idea that Job was not patient and that he had a devil in his closet would cause such a wedge? However so be it.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 22, 2011)

emtguy said:


> And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
> JOB1:8
> KJV
> 
> ...





Thanks for the PM...you know...I can read the thread as well.

I can read and have read Job.  You need to look to the original text and the context of the word "perfect."  Read post #23.  Also, to say that there were sinless men beside's Christ doesn't line up with other scriptures.

I would agree, when we get to heaven and receive our glorified bodies, we will be made perfect.  But here on earth, we still have that sin in our lives that is a constant battle.



Ronnie T said:


> One of the ways for a teacher to prove himself unreliable to me is when he begins teaching things that the scripture never intended



Bingo.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 22, 2011)

**k9** said:


> quote from 1gr8bldr
> "In the so-called Christian circles that I have been envolved with have always claimed "patience of Job"but this myth needs to be busted.------ Lets begin " quote
> 
> Unless you are God, you won't be changing the truth concerning the patience of Job, nor the Lord.
> ...


Hello K-9, My bible [NIV] says "perserverence of job" but even if it did say patience of job, my thoughts remain the same. Because James mentions something about Job, does that mean that is the context. *Did God allow Satan to afflict Job to teach him patience*?? Job was a righteous man indeed, God was pleased with him, BUT, being good enough will not save anyone. Through the turn of events that God allowed through Satan, Job saw his pride, was humbled and repented.  Reconcilation is the context here.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 22, 2011)

emtguy said:


> While he was innocent of every charge, he did not even defend himself
> 
> You stated the above in your post, I would like to explain that Jesus could have defended himself but he didnt and there is a reason why...John 5:19 answers it...Jesus didnt answer pilot b/c the father did'nt answer him...Jesus only did what the father did first...even if he wanted to answer he didnt b/c it was " not my will but thine be done"


 1 Peter 2;23, "When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, *he intrusted himself to him who judges justly"*


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## emtguy (Feb 22, 2011)

rjcruiser said:


> Thanks for the PM...you know...I can read the thread as well.
> 
> I can read and have read Job.  You need to look to the original text and the context of the word "perfect."  Read post #23.  Also, to say that there were sinless men beside's Christ doesn't line up with other scriptures.
> 
> ...



First off i did not state there were ANY sinless men, even though Jesus WAS without sin....I SAID Jesus was not the only PERFECT man in the bible...Job proves that...can't argue that point, its in black and white. The bible even tell us to " be ye perfect, therfore, as your father in heaven is perfect". being perfect IN GOD"S EYE is a obtainable goal or he would'nt have told us to.

Now, I used quotations around LEGAL in my original post because i couldnt think of a better word...I guess saying Eve adding to God's word gave satan OPORTUNITY to enter into discourse would be a better word but still conveying my thoughts....I think if she would have quoted the scripture right satan would have had to leave the garden but she didnt and that gave him the ability to continue the conversation...how many times in our  lives has satan whispered in our ears and we think or quote scripture or simply rebuked him and he left...i know i have alot

If you give satan a oportunity to enter in HE WILL TAKE IT...

Ya'll got hung up on the word " legal" and missed what i was trying to convey.

Oh yeah, i have researched the original text, the word is tamam in hebrew and theres still only 2 people the bible said was tamam was'nt they?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 22, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Hello to you also 1gr8bldr,
> 
> First, one problem is that we are not using the same textbook, so though we read and study, it would be unlikely that we would agree on many verses, meaning of words, and even doctrines.
> I have studied over one hundred different versions of the bible.  By the faith that the Authorized King James Holy Bible produced in me, I receive it as the word of God in the English Language.
> ...


Hello K-9, I'm trying to understand the context of your post. Are you saying that God allows affliction so that those who are patient during the times of suffering will be accepted? I surely don't wish to misrepresent you, I'm just trying to understand and this is what it looks like. Please summarize your context and then I might get the remainder.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 22, 2011)

If you want to know exactly why God allowed Satan to attack Job's life you'll have to get it from the following verses:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz whose name was Job; and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil. 
2Seven sons and three daughters were born to him. 
3His possessions also were 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 yoke of oxen, 500 female donkeys, and very many servants; and that man was the greatest of all the men of the east. 
4His sons used to go and hold a feast in the house of each one on his day, and they would send and invite their three sisters to eat and drink with them. 
5When the days of feasting had completed their cycle, Job would send and consecrate them, rising up early in the morning and offering burnt offerings according to the number of them all; for Job said, "Perhaps my sons have sinned and cursed God in their hearts." Thus Job did continually. 
6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. 
7The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it." 
8The LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job? For there is no one like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, fearing God and turning away from evil." 
9Then Satan answered the LORD, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 
10"Have You not made a hedge about him and his house and all that he has, on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land. 
11"But put forth Your hand now and touch all that he has; he will surely curse You to Your face." 
12Then the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him." So Satan departed from the presence of the LORD. 

Once you read beyond these verses you will find the when and how of the things that happened as a result of God allowing this thing to happen.
But God did not tell us why.
As as you know, Job didn't know either.  All Job knew was that his life was falling apart and he continued to muster all the faith he possibly could.

The lesson, for me:  I don't need to know why unpleasant things come my way, I just need to always stay focused on my heavenly Father and always trust Him.  No matter what.  Trust that God will see me through it.  And stay strong.  And when I stumble and fall, get up and turn towards God again.


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## emtguy (Feb 22, 2011)

ronnie wouldnt verse 5 in your above post back up my stating that job was in constant worry and fear of his sons offending god? I read it as he was CONSTANTLY makig offerings on their behalf...he was worried sick. 
I dont think im reading between the lines like i was accused of, it aint a far streach what im saying.

Also on a total thread hi-jack, you remember my post about the earth being satans domain/living area before the restoration? Wouldnt verse 7 also back up that statement? I mean God ask " where ya been satan" and he replied " walking around on earth, just roaming around"...i also think when he said " i shall ascend to heaven..." that shows us he was on earth. We know he was'nt in heaven when he rebelled b/c he talked of GOING there...

Jusk asking your thoughts, i think i have a pretty tight reasoning here....sorry for thr hi-jack


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## Ronnie T (Feb 22, 2011)

emtguy said:


> ronnie wouldnt verse 5 in your above post back up my stating that job was in constant worry and fear of his sons offending god? I read it as he was CONSTANTLY makig offerings on their behalf...he was worried sick.
> I dont think im reading between the lines like i was accused of, it aint a far streach what im saying.
> 
> Also on a total thread hi-jack, you remember my post about the earth being satans domain/living area before the restoration? Wouldnt verse 7 also back up that statement? I mean God ask " where ya been satan" and he replied " walking around on earth, just roaming around"...i also think when he said " i shall ascend to heaven..." that shows us he was on earth. We know he was'nt in heaven when he rebelled b/c he talked of GOING there...
> ...



I would say that it is a possibility.  
It could just as easily be that Job was such a holy man that he tried to 'stay on top' of his entire family's holiness before God.
It doesn't necessarily means that he was worried 'sick'.  The fact that Job did it continually could be showing how vigilant Job was in complying with God's prescribed manner of atonement.
And someone else might have a different point to enter into the possibilities.

But is it really necessary for us to 'figure' it out?  And does there have to be something to figure out?  Maybe it's just what it is.
One thing is for sure.  In Satan's eye's God had built a protective wall around Job that protected Job from Satan's assault.
At Satan's accusation concerning what he might accomplish to destroy Job, God allowed Satan the opportunity.
And in the end, God multiplied the things of Job that had been taken from him.


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## emtguy (Feb 23, 2011)

Ronnie, i think the" is what it is " attitude that prevails in our " christian" nation is why 99% of the church world will be suprised at the end when he says " depart from me..for i never knew you".

I mean step back and look at our churches now, we have brought the world in, missed the gospel truth since martin luther nailed his incorrect thesis on the dooor 500 years ago and nothing has changed since except to be more wordly.
 a new church in our area had a grand opening the other night, they had a " teen center" that was painted out black with a strobe and a BAR in it that served cokes etc...MY GOD why arent they in church listening instead of pretending they are at a night club....
Thats just ONE example...the entire church is in a state of " i goto church on sunday MORNING( no  one goes at night anymore) i live like i want, im a good person and i ask jesus to live in my heart 18 years ago( even though i still act the same as i did before) and i;ll make it to heaven!
Man the salvation journey is such a tough road and a daily fight to keep our self nature out and i think the whole church world is in a big mess....
and before im jumped on let me add this...the bible says "Work OUT your salvation..." NOT work your salvation OUT" thats the diff. in heaven and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----...John 3:16 is only half the prescription, its nothing without Gal. 2:20....it takes them both to get to heaven...justification was Gods free gift, not salvation....Thats where the entire church has missed it from martin luther to present.
 Sorry to hi-jack thread, i'll quit talking about this subject anymore..I'll start a new thread if i decide to continue on but i have to say it would be a book..LOL

Ronnie, if i send you 2 cd's thats 25-30 min would you listen to them and give me your feed back? I really like hearing your take on issues on these boards and would enjoy it on these teachings?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 23, 2011)

entguy,
You better go reload.
I'm sure your empty now after unloading on me.
All I got to say it 'Wow'.

All I offered was an alternate possibility.
I didn't even say you were wrong.


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## rjcruiser (Feb 23, 2011)

emtguy said:


> First off i did not state there were ANY sinless men, even though Jesus WAS without sin....I SAID Jesus was not the only PERFECT man in the bible...Job proves that...can't argue that point, its in black and white.
> 
> Oh yeah, i have researched the original text, the word is tamam in hebrew and theres still only 2 people the bible said was tamam was'nt they?



How can one be perfect and yet sinful? or be perfect and not sinless?



emtguy said:


> Ronnie, i think the" is what it is " attitude that prevails in our " christian" nation is why 99% of the church world will be suprised at the end when he says " depart from me..for i never knew you".
> 
> I mean step back and look at our churches now, we have brought the world in, missed the gospel truth since martin luther nailed his incorrect thesis on the dooor 500 years ago and nothing has changed since except to be more wordly.
> a new church in our area had a grand opening the other night, they had a " teen center" that was painted out black with a strobe and a BAR in it that served cokes etc...MY GOD why arent they in church listening instead of pretending they are at a night club....
> ...



While I agree with the fact that some churches are trying to see how close they can come to being "of the World" and not just "in the World," I think you've missed the boat on what salvation is.  Salvation occurs at the point that Christ Justifies us.  It is free.  It is a gift of God that only He can give.  Sanctification is not Salvation.

But...I have a feeling we will not agree on these things...and I'm fine with moving on.  Afterall, it has been debated multiple times on this forum.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2011)

Ah....the "Authorized Version"!  



Here we go...


This is beginning to get ridiculous.  Every time I come in here lately, I'm reminded of why I don't come in here much anymore.

Thank goodness turkey season is close at hand!


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## gtparts (Feb 23, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I would say that it is a possibility.
> It could just as easily be that Job was such a holy man that he tried to 'stay on top' of his entire family's holiness before God.
> It doesn't necessarily means that he was worried 'sick'.  The fact that Job did it continually could be showing how vigilant Job was in complying with God's prescribed manner of atonement.
> And someone else might have a different point to enter into the possibilities.
> ...



Ronnie & emtguy, my biblical training has always directed me towards letting God's word speak for itself for the most part. God has seen fit to give detail where detail is needed and leave out many things that we might find interesting, but which are neither relevant nor necessary. He often emphasizes and reinforces by repetition, within, and duplication, outside of a given book of Scripture. He rarely hides things from us. Jesus used parables to teach those who had a heart to learn and respond, leaving the otherwise motivated to scratch their heads. Reading between the lines is most often a fruitless and dangerous practice.

To read "worry" into Job's offerings (sacrifices) is to rob him of the joy that Job found in being obedient to God. God wants all to respond in love, adoration, and worship, because He alone is worthy, not because we are fearful. When we are fearful, "filled with dread", it would be because we do not trust God. Perfect love casts out fear. We see no sign of dread in Job's actions. The only flaw we see revealed in Job through the entire book is that Job thought pretty highly of himself because of God's favor upon him. Now, God's favor is not meted out based on how good we are, but on how good God is. 

How many have come on this forum with the attitude that since God wasn't good to them, or their cousin or friend, or someone or some group, then God is a bad god or doesn't exist? Check the AAA forum. Their are quite a few.

Once you settle in on that, it is clear that Job wrestled with one issue.

"How is it that I am taking such a severe hit when I have been so good and faithful and I know that God is good?" He knew he was right about God and he thought he was right about himself. God doesn't operate under obligation to His creation. What He promises, He will do because He is true to His character!!  That which He gives out of His gracious nature, He continues to give or withhold as He wills, but He is not obligated to us by what He did last year or last week. When we receive of God at His pleasure, we have no right to whine if it is only for a time. God is always and forever God. Job had come to expect and even feel like he deserved better, till he realized he wasn't deserving of any of it.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 23, 2011)

GParts "How is it that I am taking such a severe hit when I have been so good and faithful and I know that God is good?" He knew he was right about God and he thought he was right about himself. God doesn't operate under obligation to His creation. What He promises, He will do because He is true to His character!!  That which He gives out of His gracious nature, He continues to give or withhold as He wills, but He is not obligated to us by what He did last year or last week. When we receive of God at His pleasure, we have no right to whine if it is only for a time. God is always and forever God. Job had come to expect and even feel like he deserved better, till he realized he wasn't deserving of any of it.[/QUOTE] end quote------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good stuff, This reminds me of Jonah and the vine. -------- How do you use only a partial quote when responding?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 23, 2011)

GT, you've stated the great lesson from Job.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 23, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> GParts "How is it that I am taking such a severe hit when I have been so good and faithful and I know that God is good?" He knew he was right about God and he thought he was right about himself. God doesn't operate under obligation to His creation. What He promises, He will do because He is true to His character!!  That which He gives out of His gracious nature, He continues to give or withhold as He wills, but He is not obligated to us by what He did last year or last week. When we receive of God at His pleasure, we have no right to whine if it is only for a time. God is always and forever God. Job had come to expect and even feel like he deserved better, till he realized he wasn't deserving of any of it.


 end quote------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good stuff, This reminds me of Jonah and the vine[/QUOTE]



Jonah and the vine.
What a story!


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## HawgJawl (Feb 23, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> I suppose I would ask this question:  After looking back on his life at the end...do you think Job was ultimately grateful for having gone through what he did?  I suspect the answer to that question is an emphatic YES!



I keep seeing statements on here about "restoration" and "being blessed beyond measure".  I can fully understand this concept as it relates to Job starting the story with 7000 sheep and 3000 camels, etc. and ending the story with twice that amount.  Livestock can be killed and then be replaced and there usually won't be any mourning over the specific ones that are no longer here.

Someone even said that Job "and his family" were blessed in the end.  That's incorrect.  Job's family was killed like insignificant pawns in a game.  

If your 7 children are killed, how can it be considered a blessing for you to continue to have 10 more kids?  Basically, you had 17 kids and the first 7 were killed.  The first 7 didn't come back to life and then you had 3 more.  No, you lost all 7 of your children.  Does no one on this forum believe that you would mourn the loss of your children, even if you were able to move on and have more kids later?


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## gtparts (Feb 23, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I keep seeing statements on here about "restoration" and "being blessed beyond measure".  I can fully understand this concept as it relates to Job starting the story with 7000 sheep and 3000 camels, etc. and ending the story with twice that amount.  Livestock can be killed and then be replaced and there usually won't be any mourning over the specific ones that are no longer here.
> 
> Someone even said that Job "and his family" were blessed in the end.  That's incorrect.  Job's family was killed like insignificant pawns in a game.
> 
> If your 7 children are killed, how can it be considered a blessing for you to continue to have 10 more kids?  Basically, you had 17 kids and the first 7 were killed.  The first 7 didn't come back to life and then you had 3 more.  No, you lost all 7 of your children.  Does no one on this forum believe that you would mourn the loss of your children, even if you were able to move on and have more kids later?



1 or 701 children, does it matter? All are mortal, so it is not like the ones Job had later in life avoided the physical death that came to Job's earlier offspring.

Lets invert the concept. I only had two parents, a mom and a dad. They died. My wife's parents have always treated me as a son. At 90 and 86, they are my only living "parents", but they too, one day, will slip this mortal coil. I mourned the passing of my mom & dad. Should I survive, I anticipate that I will mourn the passing of "mom & dad", when their time comes. I take great pleasure having known two sets of parents and since we are all Christ-followers, I expect we will all know each other in heaven. I have been doubly blessed. I feel confident that Job felt the same.

The idea that any children are insignificant, especially to God is just plain ludicrous. Were I blessed with 7 children, then I would be blessed, indeed.... even after their passing. The same would apply to subsequently having 10 more children. Losing a child isn't the blessing, having the child is!


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 23, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I keep seeing statements on here about "restoration" and "being blessed beyond measure".  I can fully understand this concept as it relates to Job starting the story with 7000 sheep and 3000 camels, etc. and ending the story with twice that amount.  Livestock can be killed and then be replaced and there usually won't be any mourning over the specific ones that are no longer here.
> 
> Someone even said that Job "and his family" were blessed in the end.  That's incorrect.  *Job's family was killed like insignificant pawns in a game.  *
> 
> If your 7 children are killed, how can it be considered a blessing for you to continue to have 10 more kids?  Basically, you had 17 kids and the first 7 were killed.  The first 7 didn't come back to life and then you had 3 more.  No, you lost all 7 of your children.  Does no one on this forum believe that you would mourn the loss of your children, even if you were able to move on and have more kids later?


 I have struggled over these points also. Many stories in the bible make one point while creating another. Like Lots daughter?????? The bible has many very strange stories.


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## emtguy (Feb 23, 2011)

Ronnie im sorry you thought i was unloading on you. IN NO way was i, i was just telling my point of view. Sorry you took it otherwise and please forgive me if you think i was... Bad think about forums is you cant hear a persons tone or fluctuations(SP?)

I enjoy your commentary even if i disagree and would never jump/downgrade you or your believes or views.

trust me if i was going to jump on anybody it would never be about religion or politics...You'll always loose arguing politics. religion, acreage of a body of water / land...of those 3 things people will always have diffrent opinions...LOL


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## gordon 2 (Feb 24, 2011)

emtguy said:


> Ronnie im sorry you thought i was unloading on you. IN NO way was i, i was just telling my point of view. Sorry you took it otherwise and please forgive me if you think i was... Bad think about forums is you cant hear a persons tone or fluctuations(SP?)
> 
> I enjoy your commentary even if i disagree and would never jump/downgrade you or your believes or views.
> 
> trust me if i was going to jump on anybody it would never be about religion or politics...You'll always loose arguing politics. religion, acreage of a body of water / land...of those 3 things people will always have diffrent opinions...LOL




acreage of a body of water   Now that is priceless. In many ways our worldly nature is always asking of scripture, "How many acres in that lake?" which in turn ends up being for us a lake of fire.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 24, 2011)

I have heard that the book of Job my be "poetic" instead of a literal story. It comes at the beginning of what many call the "poetic" books. I looked last night briefly but did not find where I had originally seen that opinion. Either way, we have to assume it is inspired, therefore the lessons as God intends are not changed. It would help to shed light as to how Jobs children were presented in the story like property instead of also being children of God in need of guidance just as Job. I would hate to think that God would snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson. Or maybe I should say, I would hate to say that God allowed Satan to snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 24, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I have heard that the book of Job my be "poetic" instead of a literal story. It comes at the beginning of what many call the "poetic" books. I looked last night briefly but did not find where I had originally seen that opinion. Either way, we have to assume it is inspired, therefore the lessons as God intends are not changed. It would help to shed light as to how Jobs children were presented in the story like property instead of also being children of God in need of guidance just as Job. I would hate to think that God would snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson. Or maybe I should say, I would hate to say that God allowed Satan to snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson.



Perhaps we can look at his sons in this way. His sons were his retirement savings plan. They were not property but part of the human condition of his time...like children were for many just a few decades ago. Many parents have known the death of their children. The events themselves were not a test, but the spin parents put on them could have been.


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## gtparts (Feb 24, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I have heard that the book of Job my be "poetic" instead of a literal story. It comes at the beginning of what many call the "poetic" books. I looked last night briefly but did not find where I had originally seen that opinion. Either way, we have to assume it is inspired, therefore the lessons as God intends are not changed. It would help to shed light as to how Jobs children were presented in the story like property instead of also being children of God in need of guidance just as Job. I would hate to think that God would snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson. Or maybe I should say, I would hate to say that God allowed Satan to snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson.



Placement in your (anyones) Bible, as is currently popular, may be misleading. 

Most highly regarded biblical scholars place Job chronologically after Genesis and before the rest of Scripture. There is fairly convincing evidence that it records events that happened before the rest of the OT writings. 

It should also be noted that poetry was a fairly well developed literary form in Hebrew, when it appeared, with an easily recognized format. Regardless, in no way does the use of poetry equate to fiction or exaggeration of fact.

While it may seem unsettling to some, should God choose to use my death to accomplish His will,..... well, it all belongs to Him anyway, myself included. If my death glorifies Him, what more could I ask for???


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## gtparts (Feb 24, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Perhaps we can look at his sons it this way. His sons were his retirement savings plan. They were not property but part of the human condition of his time...like children were for many just a few decades ago. Many parents have known the death of their children. The events themselves were not a test, but the spin parents put on them could have been.



 Yes, I'll call it on myself!
Funny you should mention children being considered a form of "retirement plan". 

In China, males are regarded as the more desirable offspring, for their earning potential is viewed as an asset that in theory translates to old age security for the parents. 
In America, there seems to be a slight twist, most parents believing that a daughter is more likely to provide a higher quality of personal care than a son, in their declining years. Of course, this varies from individual family to individual family based on personalities and gender of children.

The restriction on family size in China seems to be  responsible, at least in part, for this cultural difference.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 24, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I have heard that the book of Job my be "poetic" instead of a literal story. It comes at the beginning of what many call the "poetic" books. I looked last night briefly but did not find where I had originally seen that opinion. Either way, we have to assume it is inspired, therefore the lessons as God intends are not changed. It would help to shed light as to how Jobs children were presented in the story like property instead of also being children of God in need of guidance just as Job. I would hate to think that God would snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson. Or maybe I should say, I would hate to say that God allowed Satan to snuff me out in order to teach my father a lesson.



I do believe that the story of Job is a parable.  And with anything authored by man, it isn't perfect.  I think the author of the parable had tunnel vision on the main character, Job.  

I'm not saying that God was not just.  I'm saying that the events did not actually occur, therefore God did not actually do anything to be evaluated.  The author of this parable simply did not take into consideration the viewpoint of the children or servants.

The story of Job is perceived from the point of view of Job, never from the point of view of one of his children or servants.  His children and his servants are addressed as property just like his livestock.  What's missing in the story is the acknowledgement that they differ from livestock in that they have souls and they are personally accountable to God for their personal relationship with God.  

In the story of Job, God is intimately and actively involved in the life of Job.  There is no indication that God is intimatley involved in the lives of his children or servants.

As property to be lost or gained, Job's children play very insignificant roles in a story that is entirely about one person and the story portrays the entire world revolving around how that one person feels and how that one person reacts to the horrible things happening to these other insignificant people.  It is the pinnacle of narcissism to read this story and simply place yourself in Job's shoes without even considering the other people's personal relationships with God.

Before you tell me how "you" would be able to move on with God's help, talk to your own children about how "you" would be able to move on and feel blessed if they were killed to teach "you" a lesson.  See if your children share "your" belief that the world revolves around "you".  See if your children think that they should hold some significants and maybe even have some say in the matter.

Like I said... narcissism.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 24, 2011)

**k9** said:


> HawgJawl,
> 
> What you just did without maybe realizing it, or let me ask you; are you calling the word of God a liar?



I'm not calling anyone or anything a liar.  I'm calling the story a parable. 

PARABLE:  A story that illustrates a moral lesson

A parable does not have to be factually accurate, and usually is not.  When Jesus told a parable, it was completely irrelevant whether or not the events in the story actually took place.  The point was the moral lesson portrayed in the fictional story.


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## Huntinfool (Feb 24, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Feel free to ignore any post of mine, **k9** if you are offended by  the use of AV or the mention of it in my posts.



I'm not offended by you.  But I'll feel free to comment as I see necessary.  Ok wit you?


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 24, 2011)

This is getting, well I don't know how to describe it. To "religious" is all I can think of. I think I'll go play elsewhere.


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## emtguy (Feb 24, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> acreage of a body of water   Now that is priceless. In many ways our worldly nature is always asking of scripture, "How many acres in that lake?" which in turn ends up being for us a lake of fire.



Gordon you will also loose betting on the grade or fall of land everytime...built a spec house or 4 before the crash hit(sold em really quick to)and i poured a slab b/c the land was fairly level looking at it and it would save me money not digging a footer...MAN I WAS WRONG, on one side on this peice of land that LOOKED level i was 5 blocks higher than the low side!
Learnt a lesson there, BUY A TRANSIT! LOL

i did'nt understand what you was trying to convey in your reply though, sorry.


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## 1gr8bldr (Feb 24, 2011)

emtguy said:


> Gordon you will also loose betting on the grade or fall of land everytime...built a spec house or 4 before the crash hit(sold em really quick to)and i poured a slab b/c the land was fairly level looking at it and it would save me money not digging a footer...MAN I WAS WRONG, on one side on this peice of land that LOOKED level i was 5 blocks higher than the low side!
> Learnt a lesson there, BUY A TRANSIT! LOL
> 
> i did'nt understand what you was trying to convey in your reply though, sorry.


 Low side or hi side?? I always get that mixed up. LOL [low cause the grade is lower. Hi because the foundation is higher]


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## HawgJawl (Feb 25, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Good, I am glad you cleared that up, but that leads me to ask the following question.
> 
> What evidence do you have to call Job a parable, instead of an actual event that took place in the life of a man named Job.
> The word of God gave specific names of his friends and where they were from, as it did with Job.
> ...



I have no proof that it is a parable.  I guess I'm just hoping that it is because it is contrary to the God of the New Testament.  It also portrays God as being inconsistent, uncaring, and  easily swayed by a challenge (or even capable of being challenged).

If a being feels the need to enter into a contest to prove a point, then it is a given that the outcome of the contest is questionable and unknown at the beginning.  An all-knowing and all-powerful being would have no need or desire to enter into a contest with a lesser being to see how it turns out.

Satan knows God, and Satan knows whether or not God controls the future and whether or not God knows the future.  

If I conducted a coin toss and video taped that coin toss and I obviously know that the coin landed on "heads", then I came to you and asked if you wanted to bet against me on the outcome of the coin toss that I already conducted and video taped, would you not be apprehensive to enter into a bet with me about something that I already knew the outcome of?  If I accept your bet, then you know you're going to lose, so you wouldn't even bet against someone who already knows the outcome.  This story indicates that Satan knows that God does not know the future and God and Satan are fairly evenly matched with neither one having a distinct advantage.

And as I've already stated, this story portrays God as only caring for one of his children and discarding the rest as insignificant pawns to prove a point.  Consider yourself as a father to ten children.  To prove a point and teach a lesson to one of your children, you kill or give Satan permission to kill the other nine of your children.  But in the end, the one child learns a valuable lesson, so its worth it.  Could you honestly say that you loved all your children?

So you can have the story as being literal and accept that God does not know the future and only cares for a few people, or you can have it as a parable and it does not define or restrict God because God did not actually do those things.

"The Devil Went Down To Georgia" by Charlie Daniels Band might be a literal story because it mentions names too.  But, I believe that its a fictional story because its not consistent with other beliefs that I hold.


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## gtparts (Feb 25, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> I have no proof that it is a parable.  I guess I'm just hoping that it is because it is contrary to the God of the New Testament.  It also portrays God as being inconsistent, uncaring, and  easily swayed by a challenge (or even capable of being challenged).



Does it make sense that God would include a parable that raised questions about His character? I would suggest that you need a better understanding of God (both in the Book of Job and the NT). The problem does not appear to be Scripture, but how you understand Scripture.



HawgJawl said:


> If a being feels the need to enter into a contest to prove a point, then it is a given that the outcome of the contest is questionable and unknown at the beginning.  An all-knowing and all-powerful being would have no need or desire to enter into a contest with a lesser being to see how it turns out.



This gives clear indication of erroneous thinking. Trying to comprehend God based on ones understanding of men, simply will not work. It not only looks to God as just another being, but assumptions are made about man's character and behavior, then applied to God. You are right in this: "  An all-knowing and all-powerful being would have no need or desire to  enter into a contest with a lesser being to see how it turns out." This argument bares out that seeing "how it turns out" is not the purpose for God allowing Satan to put Job to the test. That is exactly why we need to look for another motive for God granting permission.



HawgJawl said:


> Satan knows God, and Satan knows whether or not God controls the future and whether or not God knows the future.



For the record, nowhere in Scripture is Satan credited with omniscience. Satan is no complete dummy, but he doesn't know everything, either, like which of God's children can be snared so as to render them less effective. He attacks them all and tries to build on his successes.



HawgJawl said:


> If I conducted a coin toss and video taped that coin toss and I obviously know that the coin landed on "heads", then I came to you and asked if you wanted to bet against me on the outcome of the coin toss that I already conducted and video taped, would you not be apprehensive to enter into a bet with me about something that I already knew the outcome of?  If I accept your bet, then you know you're going to lose, so you wouldn't even bet against someone who already knows the outcome.  This story indicates that Satan knows that God does not know the future and God and Satan are fairly evenly matched with neither one having a distinct advantage.



How does your setting up a scenario based on chance and human thinking indicate anything about what God or Satan knows or doesn't know? Perhaps it indicates that Satan knew he couldn't attack God directly, so Satan thought he could do it through destroying Job's faith in God. That would seem to be the more reasonable conclusion to make, based on the outcome. Satan gave it his best shot and failed.



HawgJawl said:


> And as I've already stated, this story portrays God as only caring for one of his children and discarding the rest as insignificant pawns to prove a point.  Consider yourself as a father to ten children.  To prove a point and teach a lesson to one of your children, you kill or give Satan permission to kill the other nine of your children.  But in the end, the one child learns a valuable lesson, so its worth it.  Could you honestly say that you loved all your children?



Again, your assumption is that God doesn't care for Job's children, when you are not given any information about how God relates to them. Were they not going to die, as all men do sooner or later? Is it reasonable that God provided for the children as He does for each of us?



HawgJawl said:


> So you can have the story as being literal and accept that God does not know the future and only cares for a few people, or you can have it as a parable and it does not define or restrict God because God did not actually do those things.



I would suggest that there are other possibilities for the story being entirely historical and factual and not require that we believe that "God does not know the future and only cares for a few people...." If God's character is seen in the NT and He is true to His very nature at all times, including OT times and NT times, then, we either do not have all the information  or we have it all yet don't understand it all.
Your conclusion seems to be based on the belief that we have all the story and that you understand it. The story isn't about the children, but a Christian should find it to trust God, even when we don't understand. That seems to be at least part of the lesson we should learn from Job.



HawgJawl said:


> "The Devil Went Down To Georgia" by Charlie Daniels Band might be a literal story because it mentions names too.  But, I believe that its a fictional story because its not consistent with other beliefs that I hold.



Again, what does a song, written for entertainment and profit, have to do with Job (the book) being history or it being a parable?

Let me bottom line this. If Job is a parable, it is horribly flawed, if for no other reason than it raises doubts without addressing them. However, if it is history and accurate, as I believe it to be, then the answer to your questions are not found clearly answered in Scripture. You either have to find them in the diligent study and spiritual revelation of the Holy Spirit or you have to just trust that holy and perfect God of all has it covered and leave it there.

Grace and peace to you. Praying that you find comfort in the truth of God's Word.... including Job.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 25, 2011)

gtparts said:


> .........................
> This gives clear indication of erroneous thinking. Trying to comprehend God based on ones understanding of men, simply will not work. It not only looks to God as just another being, but assumptions are made about man's character and behavior, then applied to God. You are right in this: "  An all-knowing and all-powerful being would have no need or desire to  enter into a contest with a lesser being to see how it turns out." This argument bares out that seeing "how it turns out" is not the purpose for God allowing Satan to put Job to the test. That is exactly why we need to look for another motive for God granting permission.
> .............................
> Again, your assumption is that God doesn't care for Job's children, when you are not given any information about how God relates to them. Were they not going to die, as all men do sooner or later? Is it reasonable that God provided for the children as He does for each of us?
> ...



I fully agree with you.  Often our greatest confusion comes when we try to figure out God and His ways.
It simply is not a possibility.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 25, 2011)

What I am hearing is that it is often very difficult for humans to understand the "lessons" given by God himself to humans, and this is rational and should be expected.  God is all-knowing and He created humans and comletely understands the human mind and He completely understands human terms, but He just isn't a very good teacher.  He can't quite figure out how to effectively relate to humans and put "lessons" in human terms so that we can understand them.

I don't see how that could be correct.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 25, 2011)

To teach, to educate, to train, to school, to impart knowledge, to cause to acquire knowledge or skill.  To teach involves more than presenting information.  To effectively teach requires that the student receives and comprehends the intended lesson.  

If God tried to teach a human something, do you think it is possible for Him to fail?


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## HawgJawl (Feb 25, 2011)

**k9** said:


> Absolutely, yes I do.
> 
> The  greatest teacher taught 12 disciples they all received the lessons and the comprehended the lessons.  The Lord  lost one out of the12, Judas Iscariot.  All comprehended the lessons, but one rejected what he was tuaght, and the one who taught him for 30 pieces of silver.



If they all received the lessons and comprehended the lessons then he did not fail as a teacher imparting knowledge.   What they did with the knowledge is a different subject.

I'm simply talking about effective communication skills, the ability to relay information in a manner that it is easily understood.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 25, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> What I am hearing is that it is often very difficult for humans to understand the "lessons" given by God himself to humans, and this is rational and should be expected.  God is all-knowing and He created humans and comletely understands the human mind and He completely understands human terms, but He just isn't a very good teacher.  He can't quite figure out how to effectively relate to humans and put "lessons" in human terms so that we can understand them.
> 
> I don't see how that could be correct.




For me, the lesson is always very easy to understand.  And the lessons keep coming.  Through the years more and more lessons keep coming from the very same verses and teaching points.
The real problem, for us, occurs when we try to figure out the mechanics of the situation.  
Someone asks, "why did God allow this to happen to Job".
And of the million answers, who's suppose to be right?
The point of faith, for me, is this:  'who am I to even ask?'.
Does God have to answer me, or provide proper justification to me?
Godis God and here's me.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 25, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> For me, the lesson is always very easy to understand.  And the lessons keep coming.  Through the years more and more lessons keep coming from the very same verses and teaching points.
> The real problem, for us, occurs when we try to figure out the mechanics of the situation.
> Someone asks, "why did God allow this to happen to Job".
> And of the million answers, who's suppose to be right?
> ...



I understand what you're saying, and I was raised to take these things on faith and never question.  

I'm not standing with my fist raised to the sky asking God to explain himself.   I know better than that.  

What is being debated is my belief that man wrote the story of Job as a parable.  If my position is correct, then any imperfection in the parable or miscommunication in its receipt is entirely understandable.  We see on this forum, several analogies or examples that are later rescinded by the author because the analogy was flawed in some way or misunderstood.  That is the nature of a human author.  We should not expect the same level of misinterpretation from a parable or lesson authored by God.  

A great communicator knows his audience and tries to  anticipate how the audience will receive the information.  Some humans are capable of this feat.  How much greater should the communication skills be of an omniscient God.  Add to this the ability to know the future and the speaker will already know any points that will be misunderstood in the future so that the speaker can easily avoid those misunderstandings.  

Another possible explanation could be that humans' inability to comprehend the things of God may have affected the authors of the scripture.  It seems reasonable that the authors may have had trouble fully understanding the things they were tasked with writing down.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 25, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> For me, the lesson is always very easy to understand. And the lessons keep coming. Through the years more and more lessons keep coming from the very same verses and teaching points.
> 
> The real problem, for us, occurs when we try to figure out the mechanics of the situation.
> 
> ...


However, I like the idea of "wrang'ling" things out with the Lord, Ronnie.  There's a time for us to be still and know in our hearts that the Lord will bless us with His perfect will outside of our intervention, but other times, like Jacob (or like Job), we might be driven to 'wrestle'.  

It could be with an event, a doctrine, a horrific need, maybe even when our faith looks like it may fall off a ledge.

We may even need to get our "hip out of joint" in the process. 

But God knows our hearts. He certainly isn't de-throned by our taking a sledgehammer to the door of prayer.  

The Lord may be prompting such passion anyway.

And how often we humbly find the 'door' open without so much a push from us, only to find upon entrance that we are exactly where the Lord would have us anyway.


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## gtparts (Feb 25, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> What I am hearing is that it is often very difficult for humans to understand the "lessons" given by God himself to humans, and this is rational and should be expected.  God is all-knowing and He created humans and comletely understands the human mind and He completely understands human terms, but He just isn't a very good teacher.  He can't quite figure out how to effectively relate to humans and put "lessons" in human terms so that we can understand them.
> 
> I don't see how that could be correct.



It isn't the teacher, it's the student! 

Also, you assume He wants you to know something, when perhaps He is trying to teach a different lesson, like the Book of Job. Those who focus on Job's children are missing what God is teaching. Even the parables of Jesus were often not intended for everyone to grasp the underlying spiritual principles. Clearly, some folks were not ready to receive them.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 25, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> However, I like the idea of "wrang'ling" things out with the Lord, Ronnie.  There's a time for us to be still and know in our hearts that the Lord will bless us with His perfect will outside of our intervention, but other times, like Jacob (or like Job), we might be driven to 'wrestle'.
> 
> It could be with an event, a doctrine, a horrific need, maybe even when our faith looks like it may fall off a ledge.
> 
> ...



 Agreed. Seek and yee shall find. Knock and the door... I will never hold that because I am a sinner, I am too dumb to learn God's design in the way of the Cross or His purpose in the story of Job.  Both these do not teach us to be proud, but rather to be humble.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 25, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> However, I like the idea of "wrang'ling" things out with the Lord, Ronnie.  There's a time for us to be still and know in our hearts that the Lord will bless us with His perfect will outside of our intervention, but other times, like Jacob (or like Job), we might be driven to 'wrestle'.
> 
> It could be with an event, a doctrine, a horrific need, maybe even when our faith looks like it may fall off a ledge.
> 
> ...



I certainly see your point and expect that at some point in my life I questioned many things that God told me.  Or questioned God's methods.
Thinking back, I know there was a time that I wasn't satisfied with many of the things taught in God's word.

Maybe, for me, I've just lost the need to question or the need to know why.  
Maybe there are times when a person's faith could grow stronger through questioning and wondering.


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## StriperAddict (Feb 25, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I certainly see your point and expect that at some point in my life I questioned many things that God told me. Or questioned God's methods.
> Thinking back, I know there was a time that I wasn't satisfied with many of the things taught in God's word.
> 
> Maybe, for me, I've just lost the need to question or the need to know why.
> Maybe there are times when a person's faith could grow stronger through questioning and wondering.


 
As I've grown older, I find I need fewer answers "why".  Sadly though, some of the gutsy passion of my young days in the Lord have diminished also.  Hungering and thirsting for Christ ...  the deep "demand" that He will bless me, ought never end.  How many strive for such a walk?  I know I need it, I confess I'm pitifully shooting for it. 

*Psalm 42:7* 
 a) Deep calls to deep 
   in the roar of your waterfalls;


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