# Just Curious.



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

Most people are pretty familiar with the concept of the "Rapture of the Church" where in the blink of an eye Christ calls all the believers home.  The "Left Behind" series is based on this event.

What would you atheist and agnostics do if in the blink of an eye every Christian you knew simply vanished.  Would you rethink your position or would you simply discount it as them falling into a worm hole, abducted by aliens, etcetera.


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## Four (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Most people are pretty familiar with the concept of the "Rapture of the Church" where in the blink of an eye Christ calls all the believers home.  The "Left Behind" series is based on this event.
> 
> What would you atheist and agnostics do if in the blink of an eye every Christian you knew simply vanished.  Would you rethink your position or would you simply discount it as them falling into a worm hole, abducted by aliens, etcetera.



Resisting the urge to say something sarcastic about how good the world would be...

But seriously, depending on how it went down i could see it freaking me out... In the early moments I might be too preoccupied with the resulting chaos and survival.. Planes dropping out of the sky etc....

But thinking about it, depending on how strict the rapture was, i might not be affected at all, and even not believe it, assuming it was a dumb conspiracy theory.

There are 7.13 billion people in the world.

According to a couple sources i found (wikipedia, pew) there are roughly 2.1-2.2 billion christians in the world.

That's a  little less than 1/3 the population (~31%), if all of  them got raptured, that would be devastating, nuclear meltdowns, cars crashing, planes falling, etc... the infrastructure would be in ruins....

In the U.S.A there are roughly 230 million Christians, in a population of about 315 million... that's even worse, the U.S.A would likely cease to exist as we know it if over 70 of its population disappeared...

Naturally these are self reporting though, if you take a stricter view, it might not be so bad.

For instance, if God only raptured The Church of Christ in Congo–Baptist Community of Congo.. i would likely not even be convinced it happened, since they only have .4 million members, and they're nearly all in Africa......


Pretty interesting thought experiment.

But back to the original question!



> "What would you atheist and agnostics do if in the blink of an eye every Christian you knew simply vanished.  Would you rethink your position or would you simply discount it as them falling into a worm hole, abducted by aliens, etcetera"



I don't know a lot of them TBH... Much of my in laws.. and several people i would with... i would make work harder and be emotionally troubling for my wife.. If it was only christians I personally know, i might discount it as coincidence... if i started thinking it was actually god i might get pretty angry / frustrated.


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## ambush80 (Jan 27, 2014)

I'd go to Kroger and buy beer on 12AM Sunday morning.

That would be good proof to me.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

Four said:


> Resisting the urge to say something sarcastic about how good the world would be...
> 
> But seriously, depending on how it went down i could see it freaking me out... In the early moments I might be too preoccupied with the resulting chaos and survival.. Planes dropping out of the sky etc....
> 
> ...



Good points.  Thanks.


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Most people are pretty familiar with the concept of the "Rapture of the Church" where in the blink of an eye Christ calls all the believers home.  The "Left Behind" series is based on this event.
> 
> What would you atheist and agnostics do if in the blink of an eye every Christian you knew simply vanished.  Would you rethink your position or would you simply discount it as them falling into a worm hole, abducted by aliens, etcetera.



Geeze I don't know what I would do. Then again I do not sit here and worry myself with far fetched hypotheticals.

Although I just got a text from my buddy who is in Oil Exploration, apparently they were checking out this one remote island and they found a giant monkey. They captured him and are sailing back to the USA with it in their holding tank. I am worried sick that WHAT IF the big monkey will eventually escape and find the Hi-Rise building in my downtown, climb up on it and start trouble.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 27, 2014)

Good points 4.

If it was only 144,000, I wouldn't notice. If it was only the people who have it RIGHT, like your church SFD, being led by you, I also wouldn't notice. 

Describe what you think that the resulting world would be like following the rapture. The bible doesn't put it in to context of numbers, percentages and stuff like that, so you can interpret that for us and tell us what we should expect then maybe we'll have a better response. 



Four said:


> Resisting the urge to say something sarcastic about how good the world would be...
> 
> But seriously, depending on how it went down i could see it freaking me out... In the early moments I might be too preoccupied with the resulting chaos and survival.. Planes dropping out of the sky etc....
> 
> ...


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Good points 4.
> 
> If it was only 144,000, I wouldn't notice. If it was only the people who have it RIGHT, like your church SFD, being led by you, I also wouldn't notice.
> 
> Describe what you think that the resulting world would be like following the rapture. The bible doesn't put it in to context of numbers, percentages and stuff like that, so you can interpret that for us and tell us what we should expect then maybe we'll have a better response.



"Christians" is a broad brush.

They seems to fight between each other about which denomination is "more" Christian but when the CEO of the company is coming for a visit they all will be lined up looking tidy while pushing each other and giving dirty looks when Jesus back is turned.


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## hummdaddy (Jan 27, 2014)

who spells out etc. anyways?


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## 660griz (Jan 27, 2014)

I could get promoted. There would be room at the top. Our government would be better.  
I would rethink my position. I may become a believer but, not a worshipper. 
What if aliens took all christians to another planet and proved they were the creators of earth and all life? Would you rethink your position?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

I'm a bit amazed that no one has said they would reconsider the truth claims of Christianity, but I guess I shouldn't be.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm a bit amazed that no one has said they would reconsider the truth claims of Christianity, but I guess I shouldn't be.



I would wonder what happened. If I noticed that, not just a bunch of strangers, all of my friends who identify as believers, too, disappeared, then that would make me wonder. 

Still, I would be a little skeptical about the religion, not the deity, at that point, and I wouldn't be averse to asking for a little clarity on the matter from the Big Guy, pretty much the same as I always have. 

"Hey, it's me again, not sure if you're home or not, or just screening my calls; but if you could call me back and give me the courtesy of letting me know you're at least getting them then that would be great. M'kay, thanks." Click.


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## bullethead (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm a bit amazed that no one has said they would reconsider the truth claims of Christianity, but I guess I shouldn't be.



HOW would we know why a bunch of people(who we have no idea of their religious affiliation) disappeared?
Getting beamed up by aliens is just as plausible as Jesus whisking them off.
 Now , playing by your highly ridiculous set of hypotheticals, if I was sitting in Micky D's and Jesus walked in and announced all the Christians were getting poofed up with him and in 3 seconds...then two, half or some or all but a handful of people disappeared along with what I thought was Jesus......YEAH I'd say there was something to it. But it would be a little late then wouldn't it?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 27, 2014)

bullethead said:


> HOW would we know why a bunch of people(who we have no idea of their religious affiliation) disappeared?
> Getting beamed up by aliens is just as plausible as Jesus whisking them off.
> Now , playing by your highly ridiculous set of hypotheticals, if I was sitting in Micky D's and Jesus walked in and announced all the Christians were getting poofed up with him and in 3 seconds...then two, half or some or all but a handful of people disappeared along with what I thought was Jesus......YEAH I'd say there was something to it. But it would be a little late then wouldn't it?



Nope.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 27, 2014)

Answer this SFD.. Then you might be able to get a response from me.



TripleXBullies said:


> Good points 4.
> 
> If it was only 144,000, I wouldn't notice. If it was only the people who have it RIGHT, like your church SFD, being led by you, I also wouldn't notice.
> 
> Describe what you think that the resulting world would be like following the rapture. The bible doesn't put it in to context of numbers, percentages and stuff like that, so you can interpret that for us and tell us what we should expect then maybe we'll have a better response.


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## stringmusic (Jan 27, 2014)

660griz said:


> i could get promoted. There would be room at the top. our government would be better.
> i would rethink my position. I may become a believer but, not a worshipper.
> What if aliens took all christians to another planet and proved they were the creators of earth and all life? Would you rethink your position?



lol


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Most people are pretty familiar with the concept of the "Rapture of the Church" where in the blink of an eye Christ calls all the believers home.  The "Left Behind" series is based on this event.
> 
> What would you atheist and agnostics do if in the blink of an eye every Christian you knew simply vanished.  Would you rethink your position or would you simply discount it as them falling into a worm hole, abducted by aliens, etcetera.



I'll admit I'd be more open to believing in the event that the events you described happened.

Now your turn Semper,

What if "The Rapture" occured and you were still here? All Catholics were gone but not protestants, or all Muslims, or Buddhists, etc?


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## drippin' rock (Jan 27, 2014)

Guess I would reconsider.  I'll worry about it then.  What is funny to me is the mental image of folks like you sitting around wringing your hands saying," Oh please let it happen!  Please!"

Really I think of all the things you could put your hopes and dreams in, and you pick something like the rapture theory.  All the good God fearin' folk finally getting their reward.  Heck, not even all Christians believe in the rapture.  What does that tell you?


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## ambush80 (Jan 27, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm a bit amazed that no one has said they would reconsider the truth claims of Christianity, but I guess I shouldn't be.





ambush80 said:


> I'd go to Kroger and buy beer on 12AM Sunday morning.
> 
> That would be good proof to me.



Sir? 

I thought long and hard about my answer.  I thought of all the people that I know (mostly relatives) that REALLY believe that Jesus rose from the dead and is the son,1/3, human incarnation or whatever of God and if they all disappeared (I believe they get lifted in to the sky so I would see that), I would go look up what happens next in the Bible.


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## Terminal Idiot (Jan 27, 2014)

Your question is somewhat vague with the details. In one sentence you say believers and in another you say Christians. If all Christians disappeared tomorrow, I would take note and rethink my position.

 The real question is, is a believer the same as a Christian. Meaning are all believers Christian and are all Christians believers. Of course I don't know what is in every mans heart. I have no idea if there are people that go to church every Sunday and do their due diligence, just to cover the bases - then go home and do terrible things - or say to themselves "I am going, just in case", but don't really believe 100%.

I imagine it would be pretty funny seeing all the people that didn't quite make the cut standing at the curb looking up..... "Why god????" And god chimes back "you can talk to the hand.....". I would be very curious to know what is acceptable in a scenario such as the one you presented.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 27, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Your question is somewhat vague with the details. In one sentence you say believers and in another you say Christians. If all Christians disappeared tomorrow, I would take note and rethink my position.
> 
> The real question is, is a believer the same as a Christian. Meaning are all believers Christian and are all Christians believers. Of course I don't know what is in every mans heart. I have no idea if there are people that go to church every Sunday and do their due diligence, just to cover the bases - then go home and do terrible things - or say to themselves "I am going, just in case", but don't really believe 100%.
> 
> I imagine it would be pretty funny seeing all the people that didn't quite make the cut standing at the curb looking up..... "Why god????" And god chimes back "you can talk to the hand.....". I would be very curious to know what is acceptable in a scenario such as the one you presented.



I know the 2 billion he likes to quote includes Mormons and JW, and we know they don't count.  Then you have to consider the number of people when asked if they were Christian said, " uh.....sure?"  makes me think the number is closer to 900 million.  So God made this world put us in it, told us to be fruitful(the fun part) and all he gets is 900 million out of 7 billion?   We are an ungrateful bunch.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> I'll admit I'd be more open to believing in the event that the events you described happened.
> 
> Now your turn Semper,
> 
> What if "The Rapture" occured and you were still here? All Catholics were gone but not protestants, or all Muslims, or Buddhists, etc?



I'de be bathing in holy water and drying off with rosary beads.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> Guess I would reconsider.  I'll worry about it then.  What is funny to me is the mental image of folks like you sitting around wringing your hands saying," Oh please let it happen!  Please!"



Actually you couldn't be more wrong.  While it would be great for believers, a mature view realizes that  the He11 on Earth that is told of in Revelations is what those left behind are going to endure.  I find no joy in that no matter what you think of me.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Sir?
> 
> I thought long and hard about my answer.  I thought of all the people that I know (mostly relatives) that REALLY believe that Jesus rose from the dead and is the son,1/3, human incarnation or whatever of God and if they all disappeared (I believe they get lifted in to the sky so I would see that), I would go look up what happens next in the Bible.



I think you have given a very honest answer.  It's exactly what I would do.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 28, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Your question is somewhat vague with the details. In one sentence you say believers and in another you say Christians. If all Christians disappeared tomorrow, I would take note and rethink my position.
> 
> The real question is, is a believer the same as a Christian. Meaning are all believers Christian and are all Christians believers. Of course I don't know what is in every mans heart. I have no idea if there are people that go to church every Sunday and do their due diligence, just to cover the bases - then go home and do terrible things - or say to themselves "I am going, just in case", but don't really believe 100%.
> 
> I imagine it would be pretty funny seeing all the people that didn't quite make the cut standing at the curb looking up..... "Why god????" And god chimes back "you can talk to the hand.....". I would be very curious to know what is acceptable in a scenario such as the one you presented.



I recognize the two terms are not synonymous but used them interchangeably in this thread for the sake of simplicity.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 28, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> What if "The Rapture" occured and you were still here? All Catholics were gone but not protestants, or all Muslims, or Buddhists, etc?



I was getting to that!


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 28, 2014)

TripleXBullies said:


> Answer this SFD.. Then you might be able to get a response from me.



It would appear as though I am blocked.


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## Terminal Idiot (Jan 28, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I recognize the two terms are not synonymous but used them interchangeably in this thread for the sake of simplicity.



I understand. But I am questioning/wondering how many of the Christians that I know would actually be going. Who would pass the test. Who is good enough. How many people put on the airs of Christianity, but don't really, really believe, etc.


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## ambush80 (Jan 29, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> I understand. But I am questioning/wondering how many of the Christians that I know would actually be going. Who would pass the test. Who is good enough. How many people put on the airs of Christianity, but don't really, really believe, etc.



I know for a fact that some of my family members believe that Jesus rose from the dead and is lord.  If they all disappeared, lifted into the sky, I would take that as a sign.

Now on the other hand, if semper fi was still here, typing furiously on Woody's, wondering where all the Hindus went we would all have a chuckle, no?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 29, 2014)

It's pretty bad that there are Christians who can't look forward to Heaven because they are too worried about people burning for an eternity.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 29, 2014)

Terminal Idiot said:


> Who would pass the test. Who is good enough. How many people put on the airs of Christianity, but don't really, really believe, etc.



Terminal if you are speaking literally and not figuratively then in all honesty, and I don't say this to in any way critique you, but it's a misguided view of Christianity.  It's not based on being "good enough".  If that was the case no one would make it.  Figuratively everyone at some time wonders how many that actually call themselves Christians really are.  That's a question only God can answer though many try to.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 29, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> I know for a fact that some of my family members believe that Jesus rose from the dead and is lord.  If they all disappeared, lifted into the sky, I would take that as a sign.
> 
> Now on the other hand, if semper fi was still here, typing furiously on Woody's, wondering where all the Hindus went we would all have a chuckle, no?



Lol.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 29, 2014)

Wait a minute now...

Don't y'all think that Christians should be prevented from holding any positions of authority or that might effect the public safety when this "Rapture" happens? In fact, you would think that good, decent Christians would voluntarily resign from such positions as airline pilots, ship captains, police officers, etc.

I say we start a public campaign now, so that all God-fearing decent Christians can do the Christian thing and resign from all positions of power or that may become a danger to others in the event of their sudden "rapturing".  They should probably surrender their drivers licenses as well.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 29, 2014)

Dr. Strangelove said:


> Wait a minute now...
> 
> Don't y'all think that Christians should be prevented from holding any positions of authority or that might effect the public safety when this "Rapture" happens? In fact, you would think that good, decent Christians would voluntarily resign from such positions as airline pilots, ship captains, police officers, etc.
> 
> I say we start a public campaign now, so that all God-fearing decent Christians can do the Christian thing and resign from all positions of power or that may become a danger to others in the event of their sudden "rapturing".  They should probably surrender their drivers licenses as well.



Here, here.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 29, 2014)

Welp this thread just died.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 29, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> Here, here.





Dr. Strangelove said:


> Wait a minute now...
> 
> Don't y'all think that Christians should be prevented from holding any positions of authority or that might effect the public safety when this "Rapture" happens? In fact, you would think that good, decent Christians would voluntarily resign from such positions as airline pilots, ship captains, police officers, etc.
> 
> I say we start a public campaign now, so that all God-fearing decent Christians can do the Christian thing and resign from all positions of power or that may become a danger to others in the event of their sudden "rapturing".  They should probably surrender their drivers licenses as well.





SemperFiDawg said:


> Welp this thread just died.



You think it died, I say it just got good. He brings a good point. 

How guilty would a believer feel if there were, say a pilot of an airline, and their ascension caused the death of 3-400 of those of us "left behind."

Seems to me that this could be, seeing as they willingly accepted the position and knowing the likelihood of their own ascension, construed as murder...


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## bullethead (Jan 29, 2014)

Thou Shalt Not Kill....'ceppin 'ifins yo name be Jesus 'rollin in on the White Horse and what not...

Then again those left behind were doomed anyway...

But then again SFD said it's never too late....

Unless your in seat 3 row 12 and the Pilot suddenly vanishes.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 29, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Welp this thread just died.



None of the people you are asking actually believe in the rapture so how long did you figure the thread to last?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 29, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> You think it died, I say it just got good. He brings a good point.
> 
> How guilty would a believer feel if there were, say a pilot of an airline, and their ascension caused the death of 3-400 of those of us "left behind."
> 
> Seems to me that this could be, seeing as they willingly accepted the position and knowing the likelihood of their own ascension, construed as murder...



OK bear with me on this for a minute.

When/if, depending on your view, Christ returns and raptures the Church(true believers) then all those left are the ones who did not accept his gift of salvation, hence they are facing judgement.  If that is the case then none of them are innocent, therefore if they die in a plane crash in which the pilot was raptured or of a heart attack at home it makes no difference.  They were equally guilty.

As far as feeling guilty, I wouldn't.  Sorry?  Yes.  Guilty?  No.  It's no different than it is today.  I feel sorry each time I hear of someone dying and they are not saved, but I don't feel guilty.  Each person has free will and is ultimately responsible for their own decision to accept or reject Christ.  Those who don't stand in judgement, and the penalty for that is death.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 29, 2014)

drippin' rock said:


> None of the people you are asking actually believe in the rapture so how long did you figure the thread to last?



Not long, but they were the only audience that the question was relevant to so I'm grateful for the responses I got.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 29, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Thou Shalt Not Kill....'ceppin 'ifins yo name be Jesus 'rollin in on the White Horse and what not...
> 
> Then again those left behind were doomed anyway...
> 
> ...



Same as now.  It's not too late till you're dead and no one knows (then or now) when that will be.


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## bullethead (Jan 29, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Same as now.  It's not too late till you're dead and no one knows (then or now) when that will be.



Well if I'm in Row 3 seat 12 and the Pilot poofs into oblivion...I can't I have too much time to make good.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

bullethead said:


> Well if I'm in Row 3 seat 12 and the Pilot poofs into oblivion...I can't I have too much time to make good.



You have now, Today.  That's all any of us have.  You know that Brother.   Your choice.


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## bullethead (Jan 30, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You have now, Today.  That's all any of us have.  You know that Brother.   Your choice.



SFD, no offense but if I KNEW anything I would not have the views I do, all the doubt and questions, and I would not be on here talking to other people with the same mindset.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

bullethead said:


> SFD, no offense but if I KNEW anything I would not have the views I do, all the doubt and questions, and I would not be on here talking to other people with the same mindset.



I understand your position.  Personally I don't find it valid, but I do understand it.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 30, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> You think it died, I say it just got good. He brings a good point.
> 
> How guilty would a believer feel if there were, say a pilot of an airline, and their ascension caused the death of 3-400 of those of us "left behind."
> 
> Seems to me that this could be, seeing as they willingly accepted the position and knowing the likelihood of their own ascension, construed as murder...


For me personally, I don't think a believer should feel any guilt at all. In fact I wouldn't be offended if as they are floating to the sky they were laughing maniacally and flipping us the bird as they went. 
We all have choices and all choices have an end result.


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## 660griz (Jan 30, 2014)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> How guilty would a believer feel if there were, say a pilot of an airline, and their ascension caused the death of 3-400 of those of us "left behind."
> 
> Seems to me that this could be, seeing as they willingly accepted the position and knowing the likelihood of their own ascension, construed as murder...



How guilty would God feel? After all, he did it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

660griz said:


> How guilty would God feel? After all, he did it.



 If you are told beforehand to get an immunization for X or you will surely die or not to swim in X because the undertow is inescapably deadly and you ignore the advice.  Is it the Doctors or Lifeguards fault you didn't heed their warnings?   Do you bear no responsibility for your actions?


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## Four (Jan 30, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If you are told beforehand to get an immunization for X or you will surely die or not to swim in X because the undertow is inescapably deadly and you ignore the advice.  Is it the Doctors or Lifeguards fault you didn't heed their warnings?   Do you bear no responsibility for your actions?



I think this is a poor metaphor. It's more like this:

"If you are told by a person holding a gun to your head to do X or you will die, and you don't do X, is the person holding the gun at fault you didn't listen?

I would say that a person being violently coerced is never at fault. That would be blaming the victim.

Maybe even a better metaphor would be if you had a dog, and told it to sit, and then shot it when it didn't sit on command... if the dog just would have listened everything would have been ok.. right?


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## 660griz (Jan 30, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If you are told beforehand to get an immunization for X or you will surely die or not to swim in X because the undertow is inescapably deadly and you ignore the advice.  Is it the Doctors or Lifeguards fault you didn't heed their warnings?   Do you bear no responsibility for your actions?



All of those decisions only affect me. My decision. God's decision was to remove a perfectly healthy pilot from a plane with hundreds of people. He caused the loss of life. Or, maybe it was the pilot's fault for believing such nonsense.


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## ambush80 (Jan 30, 2014)

660griz said:


> All of those decisions only affect me. My decision. God's decision was to remove a perfectly healthy pilot from a plane with hundreds of people. He caused the loss of life. Or, maybe it was the pilot's fault for believing such nonsense.



Why is this even an issue?  We're talking about the same god that flooded the Earth and killed all the first born, right?  Why would you put this passed him?


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## 660griz (Jan 30, 2014)

ambush80 said:


> Why is this even an issue?  We're talking about the same god that flooded the Earth and killed all the first born, right?  Why would you put this passed him?



So true. I was just humoring SFD for awhile.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 30, 2014)

> Originally Posted by ambush80 View Post
> Why is this even an issue? We're talking about the same god that flooded the Earth and killed all the first born, right? Why would you put this passed him?





660griz said:


> So true. I was just humoring SFD for awhile.


Because we are told God is Love and all forgiving?


> flooded the Earth and killed all the first born


Oops never mind.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

660griz said:


> So true. I was just humoring SFD for awhile.



Color me humored.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

Four said:


> I think this is a poor metaphor. It's more like this:
> 
> "If you are told by a person holding a gun to your head to do X or you will die, and you don't do X, is the person holding the gun at fault you didn't listen?
> 
> ...



I don't think that's very accurate either.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

660griz said:


> All of those decisions only affect me. My decision. God's decision was to remove a perfectly healthy pilot from a plane with hundreds of people. He caused the loss of life. Or, maybe it was the pilot's fault for believing such nonsense.



Uh.  If he gets poofed it wasn't nonsense and the un-poofed ain't innocent if you follow the story.


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## 660griz (Jan 30, 2014)

O.K. I got it. 

You are told by person X that someone is holding a gun to your head and that if you don't do what person X says that the person holding the gun to your head told person X that he wanted from you, you will die a horrible death. 

You look around, don't see anybody and you start making circle motions with your fingers on the side of your head and making the sound "koo koo". You then die a horrible death by being slowly decapitated and person X says, "See, told ya.". But, your weren't shot. Well, guy with gun works in mysterious ways.  The end.


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## 660griz (Jan 30, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Uh.  If he gets poofed it wasn't nonsense and the un-poofed ain't innocent if you follow the story.



If you follow the story, neither were the ones that got "poofed". No one is without sin. 
Only difference is which, if any, imaginary being they believed in.

The fact is, God would be murdering countless numbers of good people whos only wrong doing was not worshipping him. 

As we have seen, he doesn't have a problem with that.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 30, 2014)

660griz said:


> If you follow the story, neither were the ones that got "poofed". No one is without sin.
> Only difference is which, if any, imaginary being they believed in.
> 
> The fact is, God would be murdering countless numbers of good people whos only wrong doing was not worshipping him.
> ...


I might have to revoke my Agnostics card for doing this but...... Im going to have to defend Christianity here -
Christianity tells us whats going to happen if we don't believe. If Christianity is right we have no business complaining or judging or calling a foul on what happens or how it happens to us. We have made our choice and with that choice we must accept the consequences. Just as a Christian will have to if they believe in the wrong or any god.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

Alas someone who at least is willing to man up and take personal responsibility for their decisions and actions.  Talk about victim mentality.  Jeeeeez!


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## HawgJawl (Jan 30, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Alas someone who at least is willing to man up and take personal responsibility for their decisions and actions.  Talk about victim mentality.  Jeeeeez!



You should check into some of the predestination threads upstairs and you would learn that we make no decisions because we have no free will.


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## 660griz (Jan 30, 2014)

WaltL1 said:


> I might have to revoke my Agnostics card for doing this but...... Im going to have to defend Christianity here -
> Christianity tells us whats going to happen if we don't believe. If Christianity is right we have no business complaining or judging or calling a foul on what happens or how it happens to us. We have made our choice and with that choice we must accept the consequences. Just as a Christian will have to if they believe in the wrong or any god.



The fact remains. God is murdering because of lack of faith/worship, not good or bad. 
Compare my life to God and you will find I am a MUCH better person. 
And, yes, we do have a right. 
And, of course, atheist card trumps agnostic card. 

If the Quran is right, would the Christians call foul?


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## WaltL1 (Jan 30, 2014)

660griz said:


> The fact remains. God is murdering because of lack of faith/worship, not good or bad.
> Compare my life to God and you will find I am a MUCH better person.
> And, yes, we do have a right.
> And, of course, atheist card trumps agnostic card.





> The fact remains. God is murdering because of lack of faith/worship, not good or bad.


Oh yeah I totally agree. Its one of the facts that makes me question the whole thing.


> Compare my life to God and you will find I am a MUCH better person.


Well that's only because you don't have the power to kill on as wide a scale he does 


> And, yes, we do have a right.


A right, yes. But for me personally ( I was probably wrong to use "we") I look at it like the only ones left on the plane didn't believe or were faking it. We were aware of what was going to happen if we were wrong. So if I load the gun and hand it to someone who I KNOW is going to shoot me.......


> And, of course, atheist card trumps agnostic card.





> If the Quran is right, would the Christians call foul?


They will probably at least be asking the church for a refund....


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 30, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> You should check into some of the predestination threads upstairs and you would learn that we make no decisions because we have no free will.



Another red herring Hawg?  You know for a fact that I don't buy into unconditional predestination because you and I have spoken on the very subject numerous times and are in fact very close in our views of it.  This brings me to question why you would make such a patently misleading statement.   I guess this exemplifies what bothers me most about this forum: the inability to have an honest conversation.  Don't bother responding.  I'm bout done here.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 31, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Another red herring Hawg?  You know for a fact that I don't buy into unconditional predestination because you and I have spoken on the very subject numerous times and are in fact very close in our views of it.  This brings me to question why you would make such a patently misleading statement.   I guess this exemplifies what bothers me most about this forum: the inability to have an honest conversation.  Don't bother responding.  I'm bout done here.



I know you don't agree with it, just as I don't.  That's why I invited you to join me up there while they tell us both how wrong we are.  I didn't mean to offend you.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 31, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I know you don't agree with it, just as I don't.  That's why I invited you to join me up there while they tell us both how wrong we are.  I didn't mean to offend you.



Not saying this in a bad way but I think SFD believes debating among Christians only divides instead of teaches.
He might be right.


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## StriperrHunterr (Jan 31, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> OK bear with me on this for a minute.
> 
> When/if, depending on your view, Christ returns and raptures the Church(true believers) then all those left are the ones who did not accept his gift of salvation, hence they are facing judgement.  If that is the case then none of them are innocent, therefore if they die in a plane crash in which the pilot was raptured or of a heart attack at home it makes no difference.  They were equally guilty.
> 
> As far as feeling guilty, I wouldn't.  Sorry?  Yes.  Guilty?  No.  It's no different than it is today.  I feel sorry each time I hear of someone dying and they are not saved, but I don't feel guilty.  Each person has free will and is ultimately responsible for their own decision to accept or reject Christ.  Those who don't stand in judgement, and the penalty for that is death.



Except in my example you are an indirect cause of their death. In your anecdote you just happened to hear of their death. 

If a non-believer had been flying the plane they would still be alive, albeit to suffer at the hands of the beast, but still alive to learn of it and repent. 

I'll tell you this, if'n I'm on a plane that starts going down the last thing on my mind is, "Did the pilot get raptured?"

It's more like, "Oh, God; oh, God; oh, God!" (purely as a colloquialism and not a sign of belief since I even say Oh, God now, despite my skepticism and purely colloquially). 

What do you think God's goal for us is? Not what he allows us to do, but what do you think is in his "heart" for all of us?

That in mind, I would think that those of us not raptured that were killed in the plane crash were doggoned unnecessarily since we weren't really given a good chance to repent, seeing as how we never really knew of the rapture and that might have been what pushed us fully over the edge. I would think that God would intervene and guide the plane down so we could all see the error in our previous ways, and be able to put it into context in the hopes of rejoining Him. Some will still falter, sure, but at least then the playing field is equal, to me.


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## Dr. Strangelove (Jan 31, 2014)

The Bible of Mr. Whiskers said:
			
		

> If you wish to say that your cat (Mr. Whiskers) is the center of the universe, that all of the stars and moons and whatnot revolve around him, then I can show you scientific evidence to the contrary, no matter how cute he might be.
> 
> Now if you decide to worship said cat as an all powerful deity, and amass ten million Facebook fans for him, erect buildings to facilitate his worship, and send missionaries out into the world to educate the unlighted savages of the world about the wonders of Mr. Whiskers, then I can't argue with it. It's your beliefs against mine.
> 
> ...



Mr. Whiskers wouldn't kill a whole planeload of people, just sayin'.


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## warmouth (Feb 1, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'de be bathing in holy water and drying off with rosary beads.



Dude! You just sold out. If this is true what you say, then how certain are you really in what you believe?


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## ambush80 (Feb 1, 2014)

warmouth said:


> Dude! You just sold out. If this is true what you say, then how certain are you really in what you believe?



He doesn't believe that only the Catholics will be raptured anymore than I believe that ANYONE will be raptured but he has to say that to allow for someone like me to say:




ambush80 said:


> I'd go to Kroger and buy beer on 12AM Sunday morning.
> 
> That would be good proof to me.



I'll believe it when I see it and so would you.


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