# Atheism Has A Suicide Problem



## Artfuldodger (Jun 8, 2018)

Might be from the pressures of living in a religious world. Was reading some of the comments about Anthony Bourdain committing suicide. It was mentioned that maybe it was because of Atheism and maybe Liberalism. 

One can't just kill himself anymore without something deeper causing it. I would assume white collar conservative Christians kill themselves as well but do Atheist do it more often? From living in a religious world? What about homosexuals living in a heterosexual world? Black people living in a White world? Jews living in an Arab country? A sailor stationed on a Army base?

Atheists are often isolated and ostracized. Is there a greater suicide problem? Is it based on living in a religious world?


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## bullethead (Jun 8, 2018)

All clubs have quitters.


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 8, 2018)

I guess enough of anything can get to some people. Even to the point where the living envy the dead.
I had a cousin that killed herself. I called her a seeker. She was always looking for answers. She even tried Christianity and the Army among many other things. She was very talented. Just never found what she was looking far.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Might be from the pressures of living in a religious world. Was reading some of the comments about Anthony Bourdain committing suicide. It was mentioned that maybe it was because of Atheism and maybe Liberalism.
> 
> One can't just kill himself anymore without something deeper causing it. I would assume white collar conservative Christians kill themselves as well but do Atheist do it more often? From living in a religious world? What about homosexuals living in a heterosexual world? Black people living in a White world? Jews living in an Arab country? A sailor stationed on a Army base?
> 
> Atheists are often isolated and ostracized. Is there a greater suicide problem? Is it based on living in a religious world?





> It was mentioned that maybe it was because of Atheism and maybe Liberalism.


In my opinion, thats a plate full of crap written by somebody who feels the need to connect Atheism, Liberalism and suicide.
Suicide occurs across all belief systems, political leanings, cultures, locations........
Its a personal issue.


> Every 15 minutes, someone in the United States takes his or her own life. That's 35,000 suicides every year in this country—and likely more, since many suicides are disguised as accidents. Sadly, suicide occurs among Christians at essentially the same rate as non-Christians.


I'm guessing the Christian suicide rate isn't attributable to Atheism and/or Liberalism.


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## Israel (Jun 9, 2018)

LOL...I've wanted to do away with myself more times than I can remember. Get into those spots of rock and hard place, not being able to see anything beyond...just...."too tight". Way too tight. I don't imagine I'm the only one. Even among what calls itself "believer". 

Things pressing seemingly beyond limit. (But I'm kind of a weak guy to begin with...never could bear much contradiction, resistance) But, also clever...maybe that develops from that weakness...as a coping mechanism...it helps to shift the pressure a bit. Something (?) always seemed to be laying far more of a demand for something _from me_...than I knew I had...to meet that demand. Yikes!

So, blame always came easy to me...it's kind of amazing how much ground you can still cover by comforting yourself that "it's everyone else's fault". It can take you pretty far...and precisely as far...and no further...than it can.
Eventually though it just runs out...and you just don't care about trying to keep up, you just want...out. 

As a believer...well...you may be able to fool yourself for a while "Lord! I hate the world...hate hate hate it! Doesn't that make me "good"? Ain't I supposed to hate the world? (Eventually you find out "not loving the world" is not what you are about at all...) and just trying to get yourself in line with what you think Jesus may mean about disdaining certain things...does not mean...at all...that you are then "loving Jesus". 

Oh...what a shock! (I wish there were a sarcasm emoji at times)

So, you find yourself kinda suspended..."I suck at being in the world, that's already been proven without a doubt...and the prizes for being good at it...have already been shown to be of such poverty...I can't even go back to pretending"
But, I also suck at being a believer cause all I am finding is cynicism and even more demand than I think I'm supposed to...ain't I supposed to be all light and airy and content? Oy...this really is miserable!

(I think of the guy in Matrix...the traitor...just wanting to "go back"...mind wiped, blissfully ignorant)

All I know is nothing holds anything of promise. I'm a failed worldling, and a lousy believer. Can't pretend to the one, and can't hide the truth of the other.

Yeah...what a house that was! Sold...but not convinced of being bought.


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

Don’t know if that’s true but I suppose it could be. Many Christians believe suicide sends you to the hot place so maybe that is a deterrent. I’ve never been truly suicidal but I’m sure most of the times I contemplated it was when I was still a believer, not that the one had anything to do with the other. I don’t buy the theory that being surrounded by Christians makes an atheist suicidal.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

Did Jesus commit suicide?
su·i·cide
[ˈso͞oəˌsīd]
NOUN
the action of killing oneself intentionally.

I am assuming that with Jesus's reported powers, if he didn't want to be on that cross, he wouldn't have been. And I would assume he was also well aware of what was going to happen.
Regardless of the "why" (fulfilling his mission etc etc) didn't he intentionally kill himself (for us as the story goes)?


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

I also wonder if maybe different attitudes toward suicide play a part? I know my views on suicide have changed over the years.


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## Israel (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Did Jesus commit suicide?
> su·i·cide
> [ˈso͞oəˌsīd]
> NOUN
> ...



Oh...man...what a question!!

Happy hunting!


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Don’t know if that’s true but I suppose it could be. Many Christians believe suicide sends you to the hot place so maybe that is a deterrent. I’ve never been truly suicidal but I’m sure most of the times I contemplated it was when I was still a believer, not that the one had anything to do with the other. I don’t buy the theory that being surrounded by Christians makes an atheist suicidal.


When I'm in a hurry and stuck in traffic because the cop is letting the Church folks out or when the Waffle House is slam full on Sunday about 11:00...... its not myself that I want to kill


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## bullethead (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Did Jesus commit suicide?
> su·i·cide
> [ˈso͞oəˌsīd]
> NOUN
> ...


If merely a man at the the time and only able to perform the miracles that god allowed....it wasn't really suicide.
It was god carrying out a predestined plan and Jesus was playing his part.

Gods only solution to save the humans was to concoct a plan where he makes a son on earth for the sole purpose of having the humans kill his son and that act will somehow save those same humans.
Would it work?
Seems as though it was just so crazy it HAD to.

The story would have us believe that Jesus was a sacrifice sent by a god to please that same god...who after the murder of himself became the same god.
God gave the people free will which meant they had the choice to choose god or not. But as soon as god doesn't like the people's choiches he steps in with that doozie of a plan.
What if the people didnt want to crucify Jesus? God just amped up the offenses until they did presumably to get his way.

But then again if Jesus was just  man he eventually became a god.
Throw in the holy ghost and the whole notion of worshipping only one god becomes MonoTHREEism.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

Israel said:


> Oh...man...what a question!!
> 
> Happy hunting!


Its an honest question though with no "bad intentions" behind it.
Look at it this way, we award the Medal of Honor to a person who intentionally sacrifices himself for his men knowing its going to cost him his life. It also fits the definition of suicide.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If merely a man at the the time and only able to perform the miracles that god allowed....it wasn't really suicide.
> It was god carrying out a predestined plan and Jesus was playing his part.
> 
> Gods only solution to save the humans was to concoct a plan where he makes a son on earth for the sole purpose of having the humans kill his son and that act will somehow save those same humans.
> ...





> If merely a man at the the time and only able to perform the miracles that god allowed....it wasn't really suicide.


Yeah an intermittent power clause would certainly make a difference.


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Did Jesus commit suicide?
> su·i·cide
> [ˈso͞oəˌsīd]
> NOUN
> ...



Kind of like suicide by cop?


WaltL1 said:


> Its an honest question though with no "bad intentions" behind it.
> Look at it this way, we award the Medal of Honor to a person who intentionally sacrifices himself for his men knowing its going to cost him his life. It also fits the definition of suicide.



Considered in the light of bullets post it’s not so heroic. The idea that someone would offspring a kid to be murdered for their own screw up and that people would say yes this makes perfect sense and let’s make this our moral foundation is crazy. It’s no wonder childhood indoctrination is a key component to keeping it going.


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## bullethead (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah an intermittent power clause would certainly make a difference.


Yeah, mobsters put a contract out on a person and then the person gets "hit".
Not much different for Jesus and his Dad.


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## Israel (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Don’t know if that’s true but I suppose it could be. Many Christians believe suicide sends you to the hot place so maybe that is a deterrent. I’ve never been truly suicidal but I’m sure most of the times I contemplated it was when I was still a believer, not that the one had anything to do with the other. I don’t buy the theory that being surrounded by Christians makes an atheist suicidal.



LOLOLOL...you know...even in the midst of it all there was enough "fear of the Lord" (Do you find that too strange?) If so...how about this..."fear of taking on the ultimate by choice that appeared to take away any re-choosing?" that kept me from it. To willfully choose the place...of no further choice? Yeah...I had (or was given to keep) what I now see as a healthy dose of "No". Seems the place of "no choice" was not mine to grasp at! It had to be a gift! From the Ultimate.

But...here's the funny thing (to me now)...to keep "an out"...(and also not lose "believer in good standing card")...I thought..."look...if things just ever get too tough, I'll book me a flight to some place in the Arab world, go to the corner of their Main and Central Ave...and just start preaching the gospel as loudly as I can" Kinda suicide by mutawwi. Ha...you think that's funny?

Not half as funny as what I learned. I fold like a cheap camera in my own will...and would probably be extolling Allah after the first blow fell.


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> When I'm in a hurry and stuck in traffic because the cop is letting the Church folks out or when the Waffle House is slam full on Sunday about 11:00...... its not myself that I want to kill


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

Israel said:


> LOLOLOL...you know...even in the midst of it all there was enough "fear of the Lord" (Do you find that too strange?) If so...how about this..."fear of taking on the ultimate by choice that appeared to take away any re-choosing?" that kept me from it. To willfully choose the place...of no further choice? Yeah...I had (or was given to keep) what I now see as a healthy dose of "No". Seems the place of "no choice" was not mine to grasp at! It had to be a gift! From the Ultimate.
> 
> But...here's the funny thing (to me now)...to keep "an out"...(and also not lose "believer in good standing card")...I thought..."look...if things just ever get too tough, I'll book me a flight to some place in the Arab world, go to the corner of their Main and Central Ave...and just start preaching the gospel as loudly as I can" Kinda suicide by mutawwi. Ha...you think that's funny?
> 
> Not half as funny as what I learned. I fold like a cheap camera in my own will...and would probably be extolling Allah after the first blow fell.



From the standpoint of someone that doesn’t expect an afterlife it’s not just the loss of choice. It’s the loss of pain, anxiety, depression, boredom, etc. Not such a bad bargain for some. I can see how the expectation of hades might change that equation.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Kind of like suicide by cop?
> 
> 
> Considered in the light of bullets post it’s not so heroic. The idea that someone would offspring a kid to be murdered for their own screw up and that people would say yes this makes perfect sense and let’s make this our moral foundation is crazy. It’s no wonder childhood indoctrination is a key component to keeping it going.


Sure but the "why/how" of it , I think is a separate issue.
On the issue of suicide, if Jesus did or did not have the power to remove himself from the situation at that time does make a difference on whether he intentionally or did not have a choice but to die/be executed.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


>


And yes Christians, that was humor.


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure but the "why/how" of it , I think is a separate issue.
> On the issue of suicide, if Jesus did or did not have the power to remove himself from the situation at that time does make a difference on whether he intentionally or did not have a choice but to die/be executed.



I’m not sure it’s the same as carrying out the act oneself. Do we define suicide by whether or not the death was chosen or by who did the killing? It’s a good question. I don’t have an answer.


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## Israel (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Sure but the "why/how" of it , I think is a separate issue.
> On the issue of suicide, if Jesus did or did not have the power to remove himself from the situation at that time does make a difference on whether he intentionally or did not have a choice but to die/be executed.


 Man! Are you on to excellent questions.

Is the guy who jumps on a grenade...taking his own life...or sparing his comrades...?


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## Israel (Jun 9, 2018)

And what if he starts out from "beyond the blast radius"?

But entered it with purpose?


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## Artfuldodger (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Don’t know if that’s true but I suppose it could be. Many Christians believe suicide sends you to the hot place so maybe that is a deterrent. I’ve never been truly suicidal but I’m sure most of the times I contemplated it was when I was still a believer, not that the one had anything to do with the other. I don’t buy the theory that being surrounded by Christians makes an atheist suicidal.



I'm not sure I buy into that either. It was noted that said person was a liberal Atheist and thus maybe one or the other caused him to do himself in.
Some think it's a cowards way out. I'm sure it's way deeper than that considering how man non-coward Veterans commit suicide. I would also assume some of those vets believe in God. Some may even be conservative.

I don't think I'll ever do it or even have a nervous breakdown. I'm sure that's what many feel until it happens to them.

Anyway, I went looking to see if maybe Atheist did have a higher suicide rate and found this link. Maybe you've ran across this as well. One can google "Atheism has a suicide problem."
Also google suicide rates among liberals vs conservatives but that's more of a political agenda.

https://www.skepticink.com/dangeroustalk/2012/10/11/atheism-has-a-suicide-problem/


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## matt79brown (Jun 9, 2018)

Jesus' death or a war hero jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers is motivated by something different than a man going into a place alone and ''checking out''. One is done by a man who has lost all hope or interest in life, the other is done by a man who has hope and interest in the lives of others. The root cause of suicide can be a severe clinical depression or just a case of a quitter who thinks he is escaping. I once put a rifle in my mouth but could not pull the trigger because I feared what awaited me. So I hung around. Sure glad I did too! I enjoy life now. Had I been a ''real dyed in the wool'' Atheist perhaps I wouldn't be here. However I do know a couple of proclaimed believers who have taken their own lives. Maybe if they'd been true ''dyed in the wool'' believers they'd still be here.  Depression and bad circumstances fall on all of us at times. But if ya'll want to kick suicide around as another argument of believers vs. nonbelievers go for it! I'm going fishin' have a good day!!!


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not sure I buy into that either. It was noted that said person was a liberal Atheist and thus maybe one or the other caused him to do himself in.
> Some think it's a cowards way out. I'm sure it's way deeper than that considering how man non-coward Veterans commit suicide. I would also assume some of those vets believe in God. Some may even be conservative.
> 
> I don't think I'll ever do it or even have a nervous breakdown. I'm sure that's what many feel until it happens to them.
> ...



Assuming it is true, I would word it differently. A higher suicide rate is not necessarily a problem. That assumes there is a problem with suicide itself. Bourdain was 61 years old. I think at that age if someone decides they’ve done enough living and they are ready to go they have the life experience to make that decision. So is it really a problem?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

matt79brown said:


> Jesus' death or a war hero jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers is motivated by something different than a man going into a place alone and ''checking out''. One is done by a man who has lost all hope or interest in life, the other is done by a man who has hope and interest in the lives of others. The root cause of suicide can be a severe clinical depression or just a case of a quitter who thinks he is escaping. I once put a rifle in my mouth but could not pull the trigger because I feared what awaited me. So I hung around. Sure glad I did too! I enjoy life now. Had I been a ''real dyed in the wool'' Atheist perhaps I wouldn't be here. However I do know a couple of proclaimed believers who have taken their own lives. Maybe if they'd been true ''dyed in the wool'' believers they'd still be here.  Depression and bad circumstances fall on all of us at times. But if ya'll want to kick suicide around as another argument of believers vs. nonbelievers go for it! I'm going fishin' have a good day!!!





> Jesus' death or a war hero jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers is motivated by something different than a man going into a place alone and ''checking out''. One is done by a man who has lost all hope or interest in life, the other is done by a man who has hope and interest in the lives of others. The root cause of suicide can be a severe clinical depression or just a case of a quitter who thinks he is escaping.


While all that may or may not be true, the definition of suicide does NOT include "why".
su·i·cide
[ˈso͞oəˌsīd]
NOUN
the action of killing oneself intentionally.


> But if ya'll want to kick suicide around as another argument of believers vs. nonbelievers go for it.


You have misinterpreted the conversation.


> I'm going fishin' have a good day!!!


Good Luck and same to you.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Assuming it is true, I would word it differently. A higher suicide rate is not necessarily a problem. That assumes there is a problem with suicide itself. Bourdain was 61 years old. I think at that age if someone decides they’ve done enough living and they are ready to go they have the life experience to make that decision. So is it really a problem?


The problem seems to be manufactured by "us".
It seems the how and why are what we judge and decide if its a problem or not. Its not actually the suicide.
Parent intentionally going to certain death to save their child?
Good. Hero. No problem.
Terminally ill? Not so bad. Kinda understandable. Still not good though. So some problems.
Just tired of living? Bad Bad Bad. Coward. Lots of problems with that.


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> The problem seems to be manufactured by "us".
> It seems the how and why are what we judge and decide if its a problem or not. Its not actually the suicide.
> Parent intentionally going to certain death to save their child?
> Good. Hero. No problem.
> ...



I suppose I’m guilty of that too. Had a 14 year old cousin a few years ago that was being bullied at school. Took his grandfathers shotgun to the bathroom and ended it. I would have tried to stop him, talk him out of it, give him time to get through what he was dealing with and get more than just 14 years of life experience to base his decisions on. But when someone has lived several decades and had their ups and downs I don’t see it the same. They pretty much know what they can expect from whatever time they have left. If they are ready to go at that point I think that’s their choice. It’s also not always on a negative note that people make that decision. Some times people have done and experienced all they wanted to and had a fulfilling life and want to go out  on that note.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I suppose I’m guilty of that too. Had a 14 year old cousin a few years ago that was being bullied at school. Took his grandfathers shotgun to the bathroom and ended it. I would have tried to stop him, talk him out of it, give him time to get through what he was dealing with and get more than just 14 years of life experience to base his decisions on. But when someone has lived several decades and had their ups and downs I don’t see it the same. They pretty much know what they can expect from whatever time they have left. If they are ready to go at that point I think that’s their choice. It’s also not always on a negative note that people make that decision. Some times people have done and experienced all they wanted to and had a fulfilling life and want to go out  on that note.





> I suppose I’m guilty of that too.


I would think we pretty much all are. That's kind of my point. 
As for your cousin that's a terrible thing. Particularly because it was due to bullying. And certainly he wasn't capable yet of putting bullying in the proper perspective. Where we veer off a bit is that I'm not sure "the depths of despair" are any different for a 40 year old world traveler, highly educated and life experienced adult than it is for a young kid.
Yeah the adult SHOULD have the mental reasoning to not do it but I'm not convinced when in that state of mind they are capable of using it and shouldn't necessarily be faulted for it.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 9, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> https://www.skepticink.com/dangeroustalk/2012/10/11/atheism-has-a-suicide-problem/





> Ignorance really is bliss. People are happier when they have no idea what is going on. But when people do know what is going on, when they actually have a clearer picture of reality, they are in a better position to make themselves really happy. It is the difference between being high on drugs and being high on life. Or in this case high on Jesus vs. high on the vast wonders of the universe. Obviously, being high on life is the better kind of happiness.
> Plus, when we know what is not making us happy, we can take actions to fix things and to make us happy. If we just wash down the pain with religious platitudes, we don’t actually fix any actual problems. With that said though, recognizing the problems sometimes isn’t enough. Atheists are often isolated and ostracized. We see the sad state of affairs in the world and see the harmful influences of religion which at times seem overwhelming with little to no hope in sight. Religious believers can find help and comfort in their religious institutions, but atheists usually can only find help online or in very small local communities that don’t meet very often.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


>





> Religious believers can find help and comfort in their religious institutions, but atheists usually can only find help online or in very small local communities that don’t meet very often.


I think its a pretty inaccurate assumption that one can only find help or comfort from someone who has the same religious/non religious beliefs as they do.
In fact its proven completely wrong on a daily basis.


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## atlashunter (Jun 9, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I would think we pretty much all are. That's kind of my point.
> As for your cousin that's a terrible thing. Particularly because it was due to bullying. And certainly he wasn't capable yet of putting bullying in the proper perspective. Where we veer off a bit is that I'm not sure "the depths of despair" are any different for a 40 year old world traveler, highly educated and life experienced adult than it is for a young kid.
> Yeah the adult SHOULD have the mental reasoning to not do it but I'm not convinced when in that state of mind they are capable of using it and shouldn't necessarily be faulted for it.



I wouldn’t make the assumption that it’s always the irrational choice.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 9, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I wouldn’t make the assumption that it’s always the irrational choice.


Oh I agree with that.
I think there can be perfectly rational reasons for it.
That's a different category than deep depression/psychological issues reasons for doing it.


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## Israel (Jun 10, 2018)

There is only one thing we all agree on in regards to Jesus's death...it happened. (At least among those who agree Jesus Christ once walked here in a material body). Furthermore, the believer and unbeliever also agree that apart from the resurrection, whatever Jesus Christ may mean to any, or had meant to some (_back there_)...no resurrection...no big deal. Just another teacher, just another talking head. (That is of course, if one can concede to his ever having walked at all as a man, and not a total fabrication from the get go)

Some say, even here as unbelievers "I agree that some of what Jesus taught were good things" But that obviously requires cherry picking in the record. For the same record in which those_ acceptable_ "good things" are found includes record of:
"No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, _and I have authority_ to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”
The words _in the record _bear testimony of both Jesus own speaking of His resurrection, and others bearing witness of it, later as accomplished.
Yes, we have almost exhausted contentions of "well, this got added, that got added..." this got added to supply ooomph, that was added to start a new religion, etc. (And even what was decided to be included "in the record" some attribute to the mere politics of power of man)
And I am surely not the first to imply that if all the record is true ...except (the miracles, and particularly) the record of the resurrection, Jesus is less than "no big deal".

But, the apostle Paul, already confronted this...all does indeed hinge upon the resurrection. Apart from it, the faith the believer maintains...is not only fruitless, but a lie _against_ truth. So, if one imagines the resurrection is simply "swallowed" by the simple minded, or superstitious, or those only with a bent toward mindless acceptance to some zealotry, we know at least one man (Paul) knew both the fundamentality of it, the necessity of it to the faith, and (I believe we would safely surmise) his examination of it...as crucial. Some might even then concede a recognition there's a "hardness" to it, but more than just "hard to believe"...more substantially, a firmness...it's either ground fit to walk on, or just airy myth to lose one's mind in.

But I am not at all convinced Paul to be the only "one" to ever tread here. And I also realize to the one yet unbelieving, this _seems_ to mean nothing. For, after all, the yet unbelieving simply may say (of Paul) "So what? It's obvious by his conclusion of the reality of it...Paul is just as crazy for believing it, as Jesus was for speaking he would accomplish it"..._all_ crazy who bear any testimony...of the dead rising. But as the believer (generally) accepts Paul's testimony of Jesus Christ, and also in that Jesus own testimony of what he would both accomplish and come to be seen as in His "rising from the dead"...is this not the substance of what all of us agree (generally)...and (even if unbelieving) is the substance of "being a christian"? The christian believes the dead rise...specifically because they believe...Jesus rose from it.

Why don't we "get down to it"? Some at least see in some form, among the unbelievers that "belief in the resurrection" opens a (to them) a can of worms about the nature of power, the structure of what may be called "reality"...to the point of musing about pooping cotton candy. To them believing in the one...does not "rule out" the other...and makes it at least in that realm...(where dead rise)...within the realm of possibility.

In short (as has been said many times) the resurrection upends fundamentally to a man his view as to what is true...and real. At least one here (in some form senses, or)...gets that. The believer takes a sober view of things in this light, the unbeliever...not so much. (He muses about cotton candy)

The believer knows...because the resurrection is true...the gravity of Jesus' words is beyond measure as other words of other men, precisely _because_ of the resurrection. Even if ones viewed as "nice things" said...or things "worthy"...in light of the resurrection these word become life...itself....just as Jesus has said they are. These are indeed "word from Heaven"...of the very God of creation, Himself (as Jesus also testified). Yes. This is what the believer...believes. Yes. He believes in eating of those words...he eats life, not later simply "going to Heaven"...but right now as eaten...being there.
Having now...eternal life. (And yes, there is promise in those words also...of what takes place after stepping out from these mortal tents) But the matter is not "who is going to Heaven, who is not"...but who is believing Jesus who speaks (and always does...even "had") spoken from there.

Some of you are indeed crazy. Crazy to the extent of speaking as though there is no hearer of thoughts and intents of the heart. You have great boldness here. Great swelling words to put "the believer" in his place. To lift him to a reviling amongst yourselves with cute and clever little side bars to one another, "this one is absurd" (said of a brother less participating lately)...of others just benighted and superstitious, or as one put it in such a clever way inviting "apologists" to participate "down here"...amongst the more "intelligent".

You swing and miss at God (for your arms are too short), and take on what appears the next best thing. But, you are clever...in it. You don't tell the friends and relatives to which you almost piously admit to knowing as "believers"...or christians (as in "gee some of my best friends are...")...and I know some of you will sit through (and have) weddings...and funerals, and Easter dinners...even in your own homes shared with a believer, the things you so boldly mouth here. All the while here lamenting to a piously hand wringing degree..."this superstition harms all of mankind!" (as though you, by a no less egregious form of pious self righteousness by which you accuse the believer...seek to present, _no less_. As though your care is truly "about humanity")

Well you all have ample opportunity to speak as freely there...as here. Free to stand and raise your voice at funerals...weddings, (your own dinner tables) any and all those places you may "run into" the benighted and in your appraisal...the superstitious...so _very damaging _to the world. Say what you will (for you are free) here, as there...to "set the world" aright. To deliver as it were...from the insanity! (too strong a word for mom? dad? why? O carrier of light?)

Do you comfort yourselves? Do you tell yourselves "I act with reserve and decorum...I am a reasonable and "good" man...not a disrupter, I am a respecter...and respectable"? LOL...and you say you hate the believer's false piety! You say you have a "nose" for baloney and self righteousnsess!

Carry a fair balance...or admit...you do not, and cannot. But, for the love of God, don't imagine Jesus Christ committed suicide, or was a simpleton given to some form of religiously pious masochism, or that God the Father Himself...is a sadist. What Jesus says to one...He says to all...there's a place where speaking the truth will cost you all you have, and are...but...be of good cheer...I have overcome it.

Matt.11:16-19

But, if you are not so sure theists (and particularly...christians) are as much a blight upon humanity as you may here wring your hands over (maybe you like the way they cook, love their children, or are just plain fun for taking pot shots at)...be careful you don't find yourselves as merely those who long for their own impoverishment in efforts to make what would appear to you..._your_ more rational world. You may have no idea...what that looks like...despite your imagined ability to...think...in a better way.


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2018)

According to scripture there were 9 people who were resurrected. 8 of which happened before Jesus supposedly did it.
Compared to the amount of Resurrections today a case could be made that they were a frequent occurrence and can be lumped into your "no big thing" category too.

Outside of the bible I can't seem to find any information about the one Resurrection that you constantly gleam over let alone 8 more.

Was nobody impressed that 9 people were dead for a while and then were no longer dead?
Heck, you only harp about one yourself as if the EIGHT other people who were DEAD and then NOT DEAD are not equally impressive.

I can only think that people popping in and out of death was either no big thing or it is ALL embellished writings of the times because none were ever truly dead to begin with.


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2018)

And Izzy, there is a time and a place to act accordingly. Here is the time and place to discuss our views about the subjects covered here.
No different than you.
While I suspect you are more vocal than most, I also know that you have a filter outside of here that keeps you from doing all the things in all the situations that you accuse "us" of not doing.


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## atlashunter (Jun 10, 2018)

bullethead said:


> According to scripture there were 9 people who were resurrected. 8 of which happened before Jesus supposedly did it.
> Compared to the amount of Resurrections today a case could be made that they were a frequent occurrence and can be lumped into your "no big thing" category too.
> 
> Outside of the bible I can't seem to find any information about the one Resurrection that you constantly gleam over let alone 8 more.
> ...



Even if one grants the resurrection story as true it doesn’t follow that everything a zombie says is true and everything they do is good. No sir. Even if you have the resurrection all of your work is still before you.


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## ky55 (Jun 10, 2018)

bullethead said:


> According to scripture there were 9 people who were resurrected. 8 of which happened before Jesus supposedly did it.
> Compared to the amount of Resurrections today a case could be made that they were a frequent occurrence and can be lumped into your "no big thing" category too.
> 
> Outside of the bible I can't seem to find any information about the one Resurrection that you constantly gleam over let alone 8 more.
> ...




The saints leaving their graves and walking around the city doesn’t get a lot of publicity on the resurrection subject. 
How many were there?
Maybe they were still dead, and not really resurrected?


*


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## bullethead (Jun 10, 2018)

The amount of time in between when the first christian writers penned the first writings and until those early writings made it into New Testament form was 400 years.

By comparison, that is the amount of time that the Mayflower landed near Plymouth Rock and Today.

Things certainly change in 400 years.


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Its an honest question though with no "bad intentions" behind it.
> Look at it this way, we award the Medal of Honor to a person who intentionally sacrifices himself for his men knowing its going to cost him his life. It also fits the definition of suicide.



No...I didn't see any bad intentions, so I wasn't being facetious.
It's a defining question when understanding is sought, I think. (Not that I see it all, by any means)
To consider it...if one can take the mantle of a "believer".
Jesus did know, and said several times what was going to happen to Him. In fact He also said this was His precise purpose in coming...to give His life as a ransom. Yet, we also know He had, by His own testimony...the ability to call upon "help"...12 legions of angels. So, to the extent Jesus was agreeable to His own death...the question is not without merit.
But suicide? How would that fit? (I am asking not facetiously, nor sarcastically, nor as though I am not in real conversation with you...to some "other agenda".
If He didn't hide...does that make it suicide?
If He backed off His testimony before the Sanhedrin...did that make it suicide?
If He manipulated for a better answer before Pilate? Pilate who appeared a little confounded at His demeanor as to say (more or less) "Hey buddy, don't you know I have the power to kill you or let you go?" You know...like..."gimme something to work with here Jesus...throw me a bone..." (Pilate had also testified "I find nothing worthy of death in Him") Is that suicide?


If a guy comes up to you...or me...and demands an answer "did you steal my dog?" But we refuse to answer and he says "you'd better answer cause I'm gonna kill you if you don't..."
Is that suicide? If a man has done "nothing wrong" (as we believers surely maintain in, and of,  Jesus Christ)...who has any "right" of demand upon them...to anything?

I know I am going a bit beyond (I am not unaware I tend to do that).
I am very very interested (did you get that? That I am interested?) in what "place" a man stands relative to any other man in place of "demand".
And I am also interested in your question about suicide.
And also (very interested) in wrong inferences...and assumptions.

In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?


And also (though not in our discussion per se) this thought came to me as I struggled through putting rafters up for a roof over a small porch..."The resurrection...and its curiousness, if not _seeming_ impossibility to perceive to a belief...becomes much less an issue for the man who understands _everything_ he sees he is _always_ seeing for the first time..."

But I am convinced this came not by any reason of my own...but _something_ (I use that with reserve) was telling me the truth.

I am, no less than _any other_, a man needing convincing of things.
And I am also a man being made aware of the cost of presumption in creation...of wrong inferences...and their manifest results.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 11, 2018)

Israel said:


> No...I didn't see any bad intentions, so I wasn't being facetious.
> It's a defining question when understanding is sought, I think. (Not that I see it all, by any means)
> To consider it...if one can take the mantle of a "believer".
> Jesus did know, and said several times what was going to happen to Him. In fact He also said this was His precise purpose in coming...to give His life as a ransom. Yet, we also know He had, by His own testimony...the ability to call upon "help"...12 legions of angels. So, to the extent Jesus was agreeable to His own death...the question is not without merit.
> ...





> In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?


Its a complicated question. Or maybe its only complicated if we make it complicated. To my way of thinking (notice I said "my way" and not "the right way") I don't see a whole lot of difference between -


> Jesus did know,





> said several times what was going to happen to Him.





> He also said this was His precise purpose in coming.





> .to give His life





> .the ability to call upon "help"


And say, what we call "suicide by cop" -
The criminal does know whats going to happen.
Says to himself "if I bust through that front door with my gun in hand they will shoot and kill me".
Knowing that ^, the precise purpose for busting through the door is to be shot and killed by the cops.
Could have done lots of other things to help/avoid. Give up, throw the gun out, not burst through the door with gun in hand.......
Neither the criminal nor Jesus "pulled the trigger" on themselves.
But both took actions to move forward knowing, accepting and making their death happen. 
If one is considered suicide (by cop) wasn't Jesus's death suicide (by Romans)?


> In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?


Did the man who accepted his own death purposely, knowingly and in fact intentionally put himself in that situation and purposely not get himself out of that situation?
If so, "who pulled the trigger" seems an insignificant fact to me.


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2018)

Israel said:


> No...I didn't see any bad intentions, so I wasn't being facetious.
> It's a defining question when understanding is sought, I think. (Not that I see it all, by any means)
> To consider it...if one can take the mantle of a "believer".
> Jesus did know, and said several times what was going to happen to Him. In fact He also said this was His precise purpose in coming...to give His life as a ransom. Yet, we also know He had, by His own testimony...the ability to call upon "help"...12 legions of angels. So, to the extent Jesus was agreeable to His own death...the question is not without merit.
> ...


Questions,
Are Jesus and God one? Are they the same diety?


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2018)

We would have to know what it means _to be_ in being_, _as _one._

What would a facile answer accomplish?

But I can say this. I have lived for some years with a man who believed himself to be "one man". Yet, in that man was found words issuing forth in conflict to what he thought, in conflict to his deeds...so that this man only knew one thing...he often thought one thing, said another...and yet...did even another. And he thought he knew what it meant, at one time, to be _one._

I am convinced I am unable to do anything but harm to a man if I answer with _one thing _of_ a thing_ he has not yet come to admit...he has likewise found to his own confounding.

But, if you are complete and total non hypocrite...what need have you of any _man's response_?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 11, 2018)

Israel said:


> We would have to know what it means _to be_ in being_, _as _one._
> 
> What would a facile answer accomplish?
> 
> ...


Not sure that's even possible.
Even the Atheist who doesn't believe in God for a lack of evidence will then promptly go to Bass Pro shop and pick one new lure over another new lure because..... I beeeeelieve this is the one


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2018)

Israel said:


> We would have to know what it means _to be_ in being_, _as _one._
> 
> What would a facile answer accomplish?
> 
> ...


I am asking what your belief is. That was all.
A yes or a no would suffice.
But I guess you know the pitfalls of answering truthfully so you avoid it.


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## atlashunter (Jun 11, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I am asking what your belief is. That was all.
> A yes or a no would suffice.
> But I guess you know the pitfalls of answering truthfully so you avoid it.



I once had a woman in my life that in a dispute would write me 10+ page emails often times one after the other. Verbose, repetitive, often full of things she knew weren’t true that I would either have to respond to or let slide. It was exasperating. It took me a while but I eventually figured out her game. I couldn’t stop her from wasting her time but I could stop her from wasting mine so I just stopped engaging.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 11, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Questions,
> Are Jesus and God one? Are they the same diety?





bullethead said:


> I am asking what your belief is. That was all.
> A yes or a no would suffice.
> But I guess you know the pitfalls of answering truthfully so you avoid it.



I have never known of anyone who, if taking your questions seriously, and having looked seriously into those questions, could give a "truthful" yes or no answer.  

My personal preferences on the basics are:
*revelational over relational
*simplicity over perichoresis
*inseparable operations over diverse actions
And I would describe those preferences as iffy; and would never claim to have studied the questions seriously.

Other issues such as nature, attribute, characteristic, essence, substance, etc. are hardly avoidable.

Either before starting, or after completing several thousand words most authors will admit that they have only skirted around the edge, often using the word "mystery".


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## WaltL1 (Jun 11, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I once had a woman in my life that in a dispute would write me 10+ page emails often times one after the other. Verbose, repetitive, often full of things she knew weren’t true that I would either have to respond to or let slide. It was exasperating. It took me a while but I eventually figured out her game. I couldn’t stop her from wasting her time but I could stop her from wasting mine so I just stopped engaging.


I'm thinking he11 cant be a whole lot worse than that


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## atlashunter (Jun 11, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm thinking he11 cant be a whole lot worse than that



You have no idea. She was an attorney so I guess it came natural.


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I have never known of anyone who, if taking your questions seriously, and having looked seriously into those questions, could give a "truthful" yes or no answer.
> 
> My personal preferences on the basics are:
> *revelational over relational
> ...


Why wouldn't anyone take the question seriously? That sounds like an excuse not to examine or admit anything. What you posted is another long way around a simple answer of Yes or No.
I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.

Is it One god the father, Two god the father and Jesus the son , or Three god, Jesus and the holy spirit?

Are they separate or one?


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> I once had a woman in my life that in a dispute would write me 10+ page emails often times one after the other. Verbose, repetitive, often full of things she knew weren’t true that I would either have to respond to or let slide. It was exasperating. It took me a while but I eventually figured out her game. I couldn’t stop her from wasting her time but I could stop her from wasting mine so I just stopped engaging.


Sound Advice


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## hummerpoo (Jun 11, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Why wouldn't anyone take the question seriously? That sounds like an excuse not to examine or admit anything. What you posted is another long way around a simple answer of Yes or No.
> I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.
> 
> Is it One god the father, Two god the father and Jesus the son , or Three god, Jesus and the holy spirit?
> ...


You don't convince me, but hey, I'm wrong about a lot of stuff.  If this is one of those, you will find that you are inquiring of the wrong source.  

It might, or might not, help if you could give up your default position that everything said by a believer is insincere or deceptive.


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> You don't convince me, but hey, I'm wrong about a lot of stuff.  If this is one of those, you will find that you are inquiring of the wrong source.
> 
> It might, or might not, help if you could give up your default position that everything said by a believer is insincere or deceptive.



Is Jesus and God the same being?
Yes/why?
No/why?

Is that not simple enough to answer?


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## Israel (Jun 11, 2018)

Why take you seriously?


bullethead said:


> Why wouldn't anyone take the question seriously? That sounds like an excuse not to examine or admit anything. What you posted is another long way around a simple answer of Yes or No.
> I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.
> 
> Is it One god the father, Two god the father and Jesus the son , or Three god, Jesus and the holy spirit?
> ...





bullethead said:


> I am asking what your belief is. That was all.
> A yes or a no would suffice.
> But I guess you know the pitfalls of answering truthfully so you avoid it.



Pitfalls.


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## hummerpoo (Jun 11, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Is Jesus and God the same being?
> Yes/why?
> No/why?
> 
> Is that not simple enough to answer?



It occurs to me that there is a possibility that I might be of more help to you with your question, but we will have to wait until I have a more objective view of eternity to find out.


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## bullethead (Jun 11, 2018)

Israel said:


> Why take you seriously?
> 
> 
> 
> Pitfalls.





hummerpoo said:


> It occurs to me that there is a possibility that I might be of more help to you with your question, but we will have to wait until I have a more objective view of eternity to find out.


I have never seen many believers avoid and tippy toe around many questions. This one has many of you skitzy. 
I didn't think that I would enjoy the squirming so much but the more of you that absolutely cannot answer honestly and directly and instead put so much effort into total avoidance...the more I am finding it entertaining. Im getting answers. I can read between the lines.

Let me know when you get that eternity view. Good luck


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## hummerpoo (Jun 11, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I have never seen many believers avoid and tippy toe around many questions. This one has many of you skitzy.
> I didn't think that I would enjoy the squirming so much but the more of you that absolutely cannot answer honestly and directly and instead put so much effort into total avoidance...the more I am finding it entertaining. Im getting answers. I can read between the lines.
> 
> Let me know when you get that eternity view. Good luck


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## Israel (Jun 12, 2018)

This from 2010, by concession:

"Brother, I believe you will not find Paul approving of this. I believe these divisions are mentioned as examples of things of which the Lord does not find pleasing and a basis of Paul's rebuke/reproof.

The unity of the church is to reflect, embody, demonstrate, the unity of Jesus in the Father, the Bridegroom and the Bride. Paul was plainly pointing out that since Christ is not divided, how can we, how would we believe that our divisions reflect the truth of who...and how he is?

Men will gather around many things...but the Holy Spirit testifies of One only, the Lord Jesus Christ.

God help us to really consider what "member" ship is in the Body. Congregations may set up their criteria for "being a member" of their church. They may publish doctrines and creeds, statements of faith and ordinances...but it is the Lord alone, by the Holy Spirit ,that baptizes into his Body...and no amount of man made agreement or disagreement can authorize this or annul it.

Everything in this new life is a matter of spirit, and spirit only. Jesus is recognized by the spirit, Jesus is heard by the spirit, Jesus ministers grace by the same spirit for obedience to the faith. If God who is one, is the spirit who is our very life...whence come divisions? Are they not carnal? Are they not manifestations, and also, justifications for us continuing to want to see and have things our own way?

You are right in recognizing a seeming lack of power in the ministry of the gospel. A handful of men, in agreement and fellowship were accused of being those who "turned the world upside down".

It is always expected Satan will push back against this loss of ground (earth) with his own reasonings and justifications for ungodliness. Please consider Paul's warnings to the Ephesians. He warned with tears what would shortly come to pass...men dividing off to draw disciples to themselves, and encouraging division. Jesus' work is always tested, resisted, and more often than not, by the introduction of seemingly reasonable religious arguments.
Holding fast to Jesus alone is a frequent admonition and encouragement. With good reason.

Fortunately, nothing that has taken place, nor is taking place, is without the Lord's foreknowledge and warning.,
Many will be purified, many will be called out of Babylonian confusion and the Lord will have a Bride without spot, blemish, or wrinkle.
Our unity does not come by observing one another and trying to secure our endorsement of the same...it is only true and manifest as each member holds wholly and only to the Head.

There is something that appears unified, but is divided.

And One who has no division in himself."




bullethead said:


> I have never seen many believers avoid and tippy toe around many questions. This one has many of you skitzy.
> I didn't think that I would enjoy the squirming so much but the more of you that absolutely cannot answer honestly and directly and instead put so much effort into total avoidance...the more I am finding it entertaining. Im getting answers. I can read between the lines.
> 
> Let me know when you get that eternity view. Good luck



It is not that I forget what I write, and say...although I will admit that at times things fit for repentance are brought back to me...silly things, fruitless things, vain and proud things...needing a clear sight of them that I might be made "clear of them". 

What I wrote in 2010 is not such. At least not to me...as of yet. But that does not make me innocent. I stand to be reproved as necessary for any soul injured, if so. I am not the fullness of Him that fills all in all. I see in part...and speak...in part.

But I also hear...in hearing. Observe...even as I am  being observed. This hearing and observing is also open to reproval, whether I hear and see according to any measure to only gratify myself.

A man told me he was "once" a christian. Has told many others. He has said his practice of "christianity" spanned over at least two decades. Many "down here" claim something similar, but length of stay, and particulars are not as made clear to me, as by this _one man_.  Indeed, this _one man _has even described himself as once "devout". He may be the only man I have seen here refer to himself as such. But, he did.

Now a man says:

"I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity."

Who can introduce these men to each other? Not I.

Who can make these men...see themselves? Not I.

It must take a clear light upon that thing in that house that a man confesses he does not know.

"I didn't think that I would enjoy the squirming so much."

That thing, is not that man's friend.


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2018)

Israel said:


> This from 2010, by concession:
> 
> "Brother, I believe you will not find Paul approving of this. I believe these divisions are mentioned as examples of things of which the Lord does not find pleasing and a basis of Paul's rebuke/reproof.
> 
> ...



I know what I was taught and used to believe when I was a Christian.
Since Christian beliefs vary, I am asking you and hummerpoo and anyone else.
One? Two? Or Three?
Explain why.


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


>


How many?
Why?


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## Israel (Jun 12, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Its a complicated question. Or maybe its only complicated if we make it complicated. To my way of thinking (notice I said "my way" and not "the right way") I don't see a whole lot of difference between -
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That seems fair enough if we must absolutely take the criminal and Jesus as equal in knowing.
(But you know, I believe, I do not)
Jesus was absolutely sure of His death.

And I am not at all unaware this seems to only make the case_ even stronger. _

Maybe you read my own version of "suicide by cop/mutawi" I once entertained...when strung between the frustrations of this world, and all the unfitness I saw in myself to enter the next...my religiosity at that time was so strong (and now laughable) that I thought I could force a hand...to take me as martyr. 

(An aside...as a nurse I have taken care of men who put the gun to their temple...and done little more than leave themselves now blind. I have taken care of men who have had men put muzzle to their chest...and left them paraplegic...so even guns...and even cop guns and aim...)

So...Jesus absolutely sure on the one hand of His death...with no less a confidence that 12 legions of angles were at His disposal. And I have to add, legitimately so...

That's like "doubling down" on the notion of intent to be "done away with".

It might be...(you know I talk like a fool) a soldier who has an impact safe blanket he could throw...but yet chooses to jump on the grenade.

But, it's not that at all really.

The saving of comrades required a doing "in the flesh" for a deliverance "from the flesh" in which the comrades are held captive. And likewise their minds in every consideration _of God_...which was all previously subject to deception.

 And apart from the resurrection...the very thing "aimed at" for the comrades, but that couldn't take place (first in Christ...and with and for those in Him) without a death.

The world may be full of religious martyrs, political martyrs, ideological martyrs.

There is a death...to do away with something pernicious. Which unlike all other "martyrs" is not to the end of merely showing or parading their own devotion. Or even conviction.

Jesus as a man lived by something _inside_ that men need to have, must have, cannot live without the having...and do not live...without the having...and was sent as deliverer. He knew/knows there was/is only one way to release what is inside Him...to man. His death in the flesh (though well preceded daily by His death to the flesh)...is making that way...manifest. So, He was made willing to _appear_...an accursed thing in His hanging. Yet we are told...despising the shame (so much for those who think Jesus a masochist). He knew what He was/is doing.


"This command I have received of my Father"

His resurrection is what gives sight, shows by "what" Jesus lived and lives, so that even death in all its most grizzly dealing to a surety and humiliation...could not hold. And its power...broken.

I highly recommend you look inside.

The man "alone" facing death (in every one of its myriad forms) need not be, and is not, through Christ.

Mercy and forgiveness is granted every man who "knows not what he does"...by the ONLY one who knew perfectly, and precisely...His purpose. And never strayed from it...knowing its cost...but no less knowing, and convinced above that...of its glory.

How free...is free?


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2018)

Israel said:


> That seems fair enough if we must absolutely take the criminal and Jesus as equal in knowing.
> (But you know, I believe, I do not)
> Jesus was absolutely sure of His death.
> 
> ...


Don't forget about wannabe internet Martyr's


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## Spotlite (Jun 12, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Why wouldn't anyone take the question seriously? That sounds like an excuse not to examine or admit anything. What you posted is another long way around a simple answer of Yes or No.
> I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.
> 
> Is it One god the father, Two god the father and Jesus the son , or Three god, Jesus and the holy spirit?
> ...


One God. Different manifestations


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## bullethead (Jun 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> One God. Different manifestations


Oh.
So God sent a version of himself to sacrifice?


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

_"In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?"_



WaltL1 said:


> Its a complicated question..................... Or maybe its only complicated if we make it complicated


I think we can make it complicated.


WaltL1 said:


> the definition of suicide does NOT include "why"


Suicide - "intentionally taking one`s own life", the motive may answer the "why". Risk factors include depression, bipolar, schizophrenia, substance abuse, etc., that can lead to suicide.

Under the suicide definition, "other suicides" are impulsive acts due to financial stress, troubled relationships or bullying. Impulsivity_ is a tendency to act on a whim displaying behavior characterized by little or no forethought, reflection, or consideration of the consequences. Typically poorly conceived, prematurely expressed, unduly risky, or inappropriate to the situation that often result in undesirable consequences.  _

Rational Suicide - _is the reasoned taking of one`s own life although others consider suicide as never rational_. End of life decision for terminally ill that was recently discussed???? Doesn't appear to be an impulsive act.

Altruistic suicide - _is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society. _This one gets a Medal of Honor.

Depending on the motive for the two men in the question above, this could be "Suicide" or "Rational suicide" for both, and or "Altruistic suicide" for the man that does nothing to stop his own death.

The term suicide appears to be an umbrella for the acts of "intentionally taking one`s own life", and the "sacrificing of one`s life".

Motive would determine how it is defined, and it appears that a  difference is considered between the "taking" as in you do it yourself, and the "sacrifice" as in offering or surrendering.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Oh.
> So God sent a version of himself to sacrifice?





bullethead said:


> simple answer of Yes or No.
> I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.
> Are they separate or one?



I gave a simple "one"


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> _"In other words...is the man who does nothing to stop his own death a suicide...as the man who actively picks up a gun and points it at his own head?"_
> 
> 
> I think we can make it complicated.
> ...


Yep we can make it complicated.
Or we can make it simple -
All of the above still fall under "suicide" (rational, altruistic...).
Kind of like tomatoes. There are Roma, Cherry, Beef steak, Better Boy.....
All different but all tomatoes.
IF Jesus had the power to get himself out of that situation one way or another, a pretty good argument could made that he committed Altruistic suicide.


> Altruistic suicide - _is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society._


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## Israel (Jun 13, 2018)

> If one is considered suicide (by cop) wasn't Jesus's death suicide (by Romans)?



It appears yes...doesn't it? But it is all of no.

Truth appears in a place where truth is not known.

The Lord appears in grace...as one voice amongst so very many...and willing to be so.

Appears in a vessel _there_ as subject to all the things every other speaking/acting vessel is subject to.

No man can bring any other to see the grace in this.

And truth will yet, must yet, suffer what it always has in the place where it is not known.

And the grace is that the Prince of Life, who is life itself...is made willing to appear as loving death...when in truth, He is loving God, His Father.

And no man sees this unless:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Till then Pilate's words are heard in every false voice, every mouth, every gathering of men together to make war against God and His anointed.

But He who sits in the Heavens laughs as men with double tongues inherited, square off against His Son and say "Don't you know who I am? I have the power to kill you or let you go".

And God, yet in grace...lets them say this. That they _might_ see all the power _they do not have_...(that is) over the Son of God.


Who's _your_ daddy?

The Word...makes it plain.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep we can make it complicated.
> Or we can make it simple -
> All of the above still fall under "suicide" (rational, altruistic...).
> Kind of like tomatoes. There are Roma, Cherry, Beef steak, Better Boy.....
> ...


Jesus could do stuff -


> https://www.christianity.com/jesus/life-of-jesus/miracles/what-miracles-did-jesus-perform.html


Would I be remiss to contend he could have gotten out of Dodge if he wanted to? Or maybe turned his executioners into loaves of bread or something? Roman spears into feathery tickle things?
If he could and didn't, then he did this -


> Altruistic suicide - _is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society._


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I gave a simple "one"


I am trying expound on the initial simple one now.
When I was a christian, I didn't want to try to explain it either. Truth is you cannot without stepping on the toes of christianity.
They are individuals at times, one at times, human or spirits...and all depend upon what excuse (that totally contradicts the others) needs to fit at the time. 
Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I am trying expound on the initial simple one now.
> When I was a christian, I didn't want to try to explain it either. Truth is you cannot without stepping on the toes of christianity.
> They are individuals at times, one at times, human or spirits...and all depend upon what excuse (that totally contradicts the others) needs to fit at the time.
> Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience.


If you are trying to sell monotheism to a polytheistic believing people, then the idea of polytheism "light" is a good sales tactic. They get to look at it as more than one but you get to claim its just one. Everybodys happy.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> IF Jesus had the power to get himself out of that situation one way or another, a pretty good argument could made that he committed Altruistic suicide.


And terminology is where we make it complicated. And it would be a valid argument.

Fallacies of definition can be overly or narrowly broad. Another good argument would use narrowly broad to argue that it was an act of Valor. Hence, the Colonel received a Medal of Honor.


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## atlashunter (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> If you are trying to sell monotheism to a polytheistic believing people, then the idea of polytheism "light" is a good sales tactic. They get to look at it as more than one but you get to claim its just one. Everybodys happy.



Like a buy one get two free kind of deal. But it’s still one.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Would I be remiss to contend he could have gotten out of Dodge if he wanted to? Or maybe turned his executioners into loaves of bread or something? Roman spears into feathery tickle things?
> If he could and didn't, then he did this -


Could have, yes. But the outcome would have been ineffective.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Could have, yes. But the outcome would have been ineffective.


Yep. That's the point.
And if he got out of Dodge what would have been ineffective? 
His mission to -


> Altruistic suicide - _is sacrifice of one`s life to save or benefit others for the good of the group or to preserve the traditions and honor of a society._


For that to happen he didn't get out of Dodge, he didn't turn them into loaves of bread, he didn't...... but he could have.
He sacrificed his life for what he believed would save or benefit others (us).
Altruistic suicide.
But suicide none the less.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yep. That's the point.
> And if he got out of Dodge what would have been ineffective?
> His mission to -
> 
> ...


If we bring God into it, a whole new can of worms opens up.

If Jesus/God are one and the same...then yes a suicide. (Sort of)

But they couldn't be the same if Jesus was talking to God and not talking to himself. And if God made/sent Jesus then they are individuals.
If they are individuals then God made a predetermined plan that Jesus was born to die on the cross no matter what Jesus or the people wanted. If Jesus had powers to walk away or even free will, God hit the override button and nixed them.
Suicide turns into a predetermined yet short term death sentence.

It couldn't really be a sacrifice because God lost nothing. Jesus lost nothing.

To me it sounds like an ancient story that on the surface sounds like compelling love but actually turns out to be a win/win for a God that couldn't come up with a better plan.

The fix was on from the beginning.

Hey kid, since before you were born I had this plan. Im gonna raise you very low key like and then hire you as fry cook. You will be set up and falsely accused of stealing and fired by the manager to be made an example of for your fellow employees,  but since daddy owns the company I will promote you to CEO in a couple days.
You will have my office with three names on the door even though the face of the company will now be you. But if anyone calls you will have to answer in a different voice and let them think they may be talking to me one time and you the other and even a third guy (H. S. we'll call him) who has access to the company benefits but is out on the road a lot moving personnel. Basically whoever calls, let them think there are three of us here who all are in charge of operations. If they ask to speak to the manager either take it yourself or just put them on hold for a second while you "transfer" them and pop back on the line in a different voice. They think that the "company" is a one man operation. Kind of like One Guy's Burgers but with Larry, Darryl and Darryl running the show. It seems confusing but it really is not if you don't think about it at all. That's what we count on here at One Guy's Burgers.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> If we bring God into it, a whole new can of worms opens up.
> 
> If Jesus/God are one and the same...then yes a suicide. (Sort of)
> 
> ...


I'm thinking your writings probably would have never made it through the Council of Nicea


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm thinking your writings probably would have never made it through the Council of Nicea


Destined to be here Walt...


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 13, 2018)

I just read about the Council of Nicea yesterday. Turns out there were different sects of Christianity who were actually physically warring with each other so Nicea kind of put a big bow on Christianity and made it a finished, authorized product. The emperor (Constantine?) couldn't abide by all the chaos so he had to do something. Entire gospels were dropped completely or added - many recently written (thus centuries after Jesus' lifetime!) not just found behind a filing cabinet. Side-note I can see how oral stories & myths from the old testament can contradict each other. Thousands of years & many hundreds (or thousands) of miles of distance apart means stories passed along will never be accurate or in synch. That's just a lot of data to examine for plot holes or continuity or whatever, with evidence long gone. But when the main new testament gospels from disciples (Matthew, John, etc) who were part of the same small group WHEN JESUS WAS IN THE FINAL MONTHS OF HIS MINISTRY not all that long ago BTW contradict each other or completely ignore some events or get major details wrong it sounds....I hate to say it but....made up. Thus inaccuracy in the OT is expected. In the NT society & technology was a little more sophisticated, so the bar for accuracy should be set quite a bit higher. Just my 2 cents


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I just read about the Council of Nicea yesterday. Turns out there were different sects of Christianity who were actually physically warring with each other so Nicea kind of put a big bow on Christianity and made it a finished, authorized product. The emperor (Constantine?) couldn't abide by all the chaos so he had to do something. Entire gospels were dropped completely or added - many recently written (thus centuries after Jesus' lifetime!) not just found behind a filing cabinet. Side-note I can see how oral stories & myths from the old testament can contradict each other. Thousands of years & many hundreds (or thousands) of miles of distance apart means stories passed along will never be accurate or in synch. That's just a lot of data to examine for plot holes or continuity or whatever, with evidence long gone. But when the main new testament gospels from disciples (Matthew, John, etc) who were part of the same small group WHEN JESUS WAS IN THE FINAL MONTHS OF HIS MINISTRY not all that long ago BTW contradict each other or completely ignore some events or get major details wrong it sounds....I hate to say it but....made up. Thus inaccuracy in the OT is expected. In the NT society & technology was a little more sophisticated, so the bar for accuracy should be set quite a bit higher. Just my 2 cents


I'd venture to say that most believers have no idea of how their religion came to be.


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I just read about the Council of Nicea yesterday. Turns out there were different sects of Christianity who were actually physically warring with each other so Nicea kind of put a big bow on Christianity and made it a finished, authorized product. The emperor (Constantine?) couldn't abide by all the chaos so he had to do something. Entire gospels were dropped completely or added - many recently written (thus centuries after Jesus' lifetime!) not just found behind a filing cabinet. Side-note I can see how oral stories & myths from the old testament can contradict each other. Thousands of years & many hundreds (or thousands) of miles of distance apart means stories passed along will never be accurate or in synch. That's just a lot of data to examine for plot holes or continuity or whatever, with evidence long gone. But when the main new testament gospels from disciples (Matthew, John, etc) who were part of the same small group WHEN JESUS WAS IN THE FINAL MONTHS OF HIS MINISTRY not all that long ago BTW contradict each other or completely ignore some events or get major details wrong it sounds....I hate to say it but....made up. Thus inaccuracy in the OT is expected. In the NT society & technology was a little more sophisticated, so the bar for accuracy should be set quite a bit higher. Just my 2 cents





> I just read about the Council of Nicea yesterday. Turns out there were different sects of Christianity who were actually physically warring with each other so Nicea kind of put a big bow on Christianity and made it a finished, authorized product.


Interesting isn't it?
MEN decided through arguing, bartering and voting on what the Word of God is and is not. Who's writings were inspired by God and who's wasn't.
What story should be told and what shouldn't......
Yeah and Ive got some beach front property in Kansas I'll sell ya.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I am trying expound on the initial simple one now.
> When I was a christian, I didn't want to try to explain it either. Truth is you cannot without stepping on the toes of christianity.
> They are individuals at times, one at times, human or spirits...and all depend upon what excuse (that totally contradicts the others) needs to fit at the time.
> Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience.


To expound on the simple yes as for one God - ok. 

But saying that Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience is an indicator that you may not understand the difference between "Christianity", "denomination", and "doctrine". 
Christianity - Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus......there is only one God.
Denomination -  a distinct religious body within Christianity.  
Doctrine - in short, beliefs that each denomination teach.    

There are many denominations in Christianity that teach different doctrines at many levels including "trinity" or the "manifestations of God". I don't knock any of them because regardless of how they understand or teach it, their belief is not teaching more than one God.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> To expound on the simple yes as for one God - ok.
> 
> But saying that Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience is an indicator that you may not understand the difference between "Christianity", "denomination", and "doctrine".
> Christianity - Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus......there is only one God.
> ...


Explain how there was a god in heaven who had a Son and they are one entity.
God is worshipped and the Son is worshipped. You have different prayers for each.

I have a great understanding of it all, I am curious as to how individuals can explain it for themselves.

They are one, they are separate as needed.


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## atlashunter (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Explain how there was a god in heaven who had a Son and they are one entity.
> God is worshipped and the Son is worshipped. You have different prayers for each.
> 
> I have a great understanding of it all, I am curious as to how individuals can explain it for themselves.
> ...



How can someone be seated at the right hand of themself?


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> To expound on the simple yes as for one God - ok.
> 
> But saying that Christianity is a monotheistic religion by name at convenience is an indicator that you may not understand the difference between "Christianity", "denomination", and "doctrine".
> Christianity - Abrahamic monotheistic religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus......there is only one God.
> ...


Go back to the beginning. Before many denominations and doctrines.
Polytheism was the norm not monotheism.
If you were trying to end their beliefs and swing them over to your side, which would you pick?
1. You are wrong. Polytheism is wrong. You might believe in polytheism with all your heart but you're just wrong.
2. You are really only half wrong. Our god is only one but theres three different ones so its just like what you already believe but a bit different.
Kind of convenient that one god is three aint it?


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Explain how there was a god in heaven who had a Son and they are one entity.
> God is worshipped and the Son is worshipped. You have different prayers for each.
> 
> I have a great understanding of it all, I am curious as to how individuals can explain it for themselves.
> ...


No different prayers - its one Godhead. If you say Jesus, Father, God, you are addressing the one Godhead. At least for me.

God is a spirit. Spirit has no flesh and bones. God was manifest in the flesh. The spirit dwells within flesh here on earth (Jesus). The spirit dwells within multitudes of people today.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Go back to the beginning. Before many denominations and doctrines.
> Polytheism was the norm not monotheism.
> If you were trying to end their beliefs and swing them over to your side, which would you pick?
> 1. You are wrong. Polytheism is wrong. You might believe in polytheism with all your heart but you're just wrong.
> ...


To be honest, I have not ran into anyone that believes in more than one God, especially if they have an interest in the Bible. 

Those that are not interested seem to be the ones that think when people use the word "trinity", Jesus, Father, Son, etc., that it means more than one God.


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## ky55 (Jun 13, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Go back to the beginning. Before many denominations and doctrines.
> Polytheism was the norm not monotheism.
> If you were trying to end their beliefs and swing them over to your side, which would you pick?
> 1. You are wrong. Polytheism is wrong. You might believe in polytheism with all your heart but you're just wrong.
> ...



Bart Ehrman did a lecture on the transition from polytheism to monotheism. 
It’s one of his numbered lectures in a series. 

*


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## WaltL1 (Jun 13, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Bart Ehrman did a lecture on the transition from polytheism to monotheism.
> It’s one of his numbered lectures in a series.
> 
> *


I struggle with watching those lectures but I'll check it out.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> How can someone be seated at the right hand of themself?


Atlas, I am curious to that myself.
I appreciate that Spotlite is at least willing to engage so far.
The rest do not seem to want to touch it directly.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> To be honest, I have not ran into anyone that believes in more than one God, especially if they have an interest in the Bible.
> 
> Those that are not interested seem to be the ones that think when people use the word "trinity", Jesus, Father, Son, etc., that it means more than one God.


You seem to want to use non defined definitions that go against what the actual definition means 

Trinity=3


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> You seem to want to use non defined definitions that go against what the actual definition means
> 
> Trinity=3


This is what you wanted to know.

*[I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.]*
I said one God.




Spotlite said:


> I have not ran into anyone that believes in more than one God, especially if they have an interest in the Bible.
> 
> Those that are not interested seem to be the ones that think when people use the word "trinity", Jesus, Father, Son, etc., that it means more than one God.


This right here still says one God. It also says those that are not interested in the bible seem the ones that think the trinity doctrine means more than one God...............pretty accurate. It just seems that way most of the time anyway.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

_"The Christian doctrine of the *Trinity*  holds that God is one but three coeternal consubstantial persons —the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit—as "one God in three Divine Persons"._


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> This is what you wanted to know.
> 
> *[I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.]*
> I said one God.
> ...


So how does one go about sitting at the right hand of oneself?
When Jesus was dead, who was running the show?
When Jesus was on the cross and looking up, who was he talking to?


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> This is what you wanted to know.
> 
> *[I want to know how many gods are worshipped in Christianity.]*
> I said one God.
> ...


Oh so three divine persons make up One god. Three equals one.
Without one of those God ceases to exist?


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> So how does one go about sitting at the right hand of oneself?
> When Jesus was dead, who was running the show?
> When Jesus was on the cross and looking up, who was he talking to?


God is a spirit.


bullethead said:


> Oh so three divine persons make up One god. Three equals one.
> Without one of those God ceases to exist?


God would still be a spirit.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> God is a spirit.
> 
> God would still be a spirit.


Spirit, human, ghost, ...all separate entities.  Declaring one as a spirit doesn't eliminate it as counting towards one of the three.

If one is on a cross talking out loud to another it has to mean they are not together.
Wouldn't Jesus think it and also hear it if he was talking to himself? No need to call out to Father if you are the Father.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> God is a spirit.
> 
> God would still be a spirit.


Why would a spirit god need to clone himself and call himself Son if it wa the same entity?


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## Israel (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Why would a spirit god need to clone himself and call himself Son if it wa the same entity?


He didn't.

We do.
We need all He does.
We are creature.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Spirit, human, ghost, ...all separate entities.  Declaring one as a spirit doesn't eliminate it as counting towards one of the three.
> If one is on a cross talking out loud to another it has to mean they are not together.
> Wouldn't Jesus think it and also hear it if he was talking to himself? No need to call out to Father if you are the Father.


 They’re connected in spirit. Without researching a little, I don’t know if there is any significance or not concerning the idea that he could have just thought it instead of speaking it.  Good question though. The spirit dwells in us. Same spirit that raised Jesus will raise us. For believers, we believe we are all one body in Christ, through the spirit. Killing one of us doesn’t kill the body. Killing Jesus doesn’t kill the Godhead. 




bullethead said:


> Why would a spirit god need to clone himself and call himself Son if it was the same entity?


 How wold you sacrifice a spirit? Remember this was supposed to be a way to end that for the Jews. It was for mans benefit.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> They’re connected in spirit. Without researching a little, I don’t know if there is any significance or not concerning the idea that he could have just thought it instead of speaking it.  Good question though. The spirit dwells in us. Same spirit that raised Jesus will raise us. For believers, we believe we are all one body in Christ, through the spirit. Killing one of us doesn’t kill the body. Killing Jesus doesn’t kill the Godhead.
> 
> 
> How wold you sacrifice a spirit? Remember this was supposed to be a way to end that for the Jews. It was for mans benefit.


How exactly was it a sacrifice?
God lost nothing. Gave up nothing. 
4 hrs of pain and then death(which many mortals took a day or days to die the same way)
Dead for 3 days and eternity as god2.0.
Sign me up.

That is a minor inconvenience at worst.

Had God lost his son(or 1/3 of himself) for eternity smin order to save humans...yeah a sacrifice.

Win win the biblical way.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> How exactly was it a sacrifice?
> God lost nothing. Gave up nothing.
> 4 hrs of pain and then death(which many mortals took a day or days to die the same way)
> Dead for 3 days and eternity as god2.0.
> ...


 I thought you stated that you have a great understanding of how it works.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Atlas, I am curious to that myself.
> I appreciate that Spotlite is at least willing to engage so far.
> The rest do not seem to want to touch it directly.


I don't mind engaging. I like interaction and most of the time the rest of the forum is dead when I can get time to get on here.


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## atlashunter (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I don't mind engaging. I like interaction and most of the time the rest of the forum is dead when I can get time to get on here.



Yeah it’s pretty quiet up there. The best discussions happen here.


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## bullethead (Jun 13, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> I thought you stated that you have a great understanding of how it works.


I know the story.
I know the scripture. 
I understand them.

I question them both.

I'd like to hear believers explain the problems that I have come to question.


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## Spotlite (Jun 13, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I know the story.
> I know the scripture.
> I understand them.
> 
> ...


Gotcha


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## Israel (Jun 14, 2018)

No man knows the bearing in Himself of the fullness of the Father's righteous judgment for sin, but One.
One says in so many words "a few hours of suffering"...which only speaks to man's perception. The translation, or limiting of suffering to what is only understood in terms of the physical is of no consequence here. Was the physical imposition horrid enough...for some, obviously not. But even for those who believe it sufficient, seeing only the physical, I am persuaded far more is being worked out that just physical eyes perceiving (and/or imagining) the suffering is limited to that, will find worthy of further investigation and appeal for revelation.
The depths beckon us all...how much "going under man" to save man to a perfect completeness that he might stand in the presence of God, blameless in all, is a work of such profound reach beyond the mere material, that I at once tremble in fear to its plumbing...but likewise find a compelling that is irresistible. And I am also persuaded so is every disciple.

Being joined in His life must include the knowing of _that love _of, and in, God (_that_ perfect unity) and what suffered of itself in becoming a show of all that God the Father is not, sin, and to be manifestly displayed as such. This is beyond my present comprehension in_ all. _But no man_ is condemned _for believing what he does not yet understand.

My practicality and experience has shown me this: When I suffer, I am most unaware of almost everything except the suffering. The pain of it. The size of the suffering (if it can be quantified) is such that in increase, all else begins a diminishing in sight and consciousness...even the God of which I am told, I _gleam _over. I no longer wonder why an injured dog may snap at its helper.

Pain and suffering get our attention to a degree we barely understand. So much so, I would venture, that the very_ seeming_ rightness of its demand of our attention, the very pointedness of attention to which we are compelled to be brought, _loathes _any dissuasion from that focus. When in sufficient pain a thing becomes manifest...I care for _nothing, _I regard _nothing _but that which has claimed my full attention and brought me to such _single desire _of release. I also no longer wonder why an injured animal seeks solitude.

For it there is no longer any of the former "joy" of company, for in that is exchange of being, of being in excess (so to speak) where such being can be enjoyed _of strength_ in that company. The being can give _out from itself_ its nature of substance to a pleasure...but when such strength and ability of _giving out_ is impeded, or on its way to some form of extinguishing...the manifest posture of need...of vulnerability, it intuitively knows (and O! how men teach this to one another) will only be to _further _harm...and suffering. Men also withdraw. The wounded who once were not expected "to fight" eventually become the resented when it is noted too many resources are being devoted to their care...than _to the fight_, itself. The _sick must _eventually exhaust the resources of the _seeming_ healthy.

Every system among men suffers this. That is of itself the sickness, defect...of all system of man, self limit to self extinguish-ment. While in pursuit of an imagined wholeness. Men _stretch themselves_ in acquisitions. Nations _stretch themselves_ in wars. None consider the inevitability of _recoil_. Seeking to possess, their utter poverty is revealed. And then they are isolated to the knowing of this. Man is set to the inevitability of losing in the system _he approves._

The wounded _know. _And it is manifest on a level beyond their own understanding when they themselves now _take on_ in surrender to, a likewise resentment. And this is said without fear of contradiction, in the whole of it,_ all men_ are consigned to a resentment of God. In one form or other. By the wounds of _this system (they have approved)_ that blinds their eyes. Men cannot reach God to rob from Him...and so they steal from one another. All the while this barely on their lips, or beneath their tongue like venom as excuse: "Look! Look at what _you have made me to do_!"

It started in Adam and has passed down to infect his every son...

"The woman _you gave me..."  The world...you gave me...into..._

Adam, the unknowing, Adam, the unseeing, Adam, the unheeding, Adam, the unrecognizing...this woman _came out from himself_. And so his condemnation uttered _against another,_ was all of condemnation, of himself. To complete and utter...blindness.

One man saw this. Sees this. He came.  Was given, in truth. Was given wholly...to truth. _Embraced _his limit...to the maintaining of sight to all of Him who is beyond it...His Father. He took on flesh as obedient son. The seeing Adam. The heeding Adam. The hearing Adam. And by not condemning God, His Father (who gives Him into_ that _world)...remained, remains, uncondemned. No sin of utterance, no sin _of projection_, no sin of _resentment_.

And He recognizes what has come out from Himself, as _of Himself._ And He will not "give her up", nor "drop a dime on her" even to his own hurt. _For her_...he has "taken on" the very whole of that system into Himself...and conquered it. And allowed Himself, as the brazen serpent was raised upon a pole, no hiding, no sequester to lick his wounds, no separation to conceal utter weakness and vulnerability before first His God, and also His bride, knowing _full well _how unbelieving man views this. Undeterred to a death of Himself before a love He will not deny. And made willing to appear precisely..._as the defect_. And _through the resurrection_ manifesting the glory of His triumph over it.

The one positing in speech...(a giving _out from himself_ into the world) to  whether His suffering is "complete enough" to merit consideration neither sees Him, nor knows Him. Nor understands his own self. But, time is a given thing...to a purpose.

I read a quote recently "Love and dignity cannot coexist" In the world...it is so. But there _is_ a place where that is all. Where all dignity is found in all of love. And love _must_ suffer in the world...but _not without_ promise.

Jesus...a "suicide"? No.

Jesus displaying that _the life_ He is...is unconquerable.

To seek, in any measure for place of divide, place of delineation, fault, fissure, or chasm between Father and Son, place where "one" is...but "one" isn't is not commended but to all fruitlessness, frustration and condemnation and shows only a man's fracture within himself. Still under condemnation to looking to "what isn't" for justification. There is _no place_ for man to find where Father and Son and He Who flows in truth of that impenetrable union, are _not_ One. Have a care in despite of that Spirit.
For:
And whosoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.

Not one either likes, nor is _even expected to_, the sight of the upsetting of his own apple cart. This is what grace is given for; to not fall and fail_ utterly _before what is given in opposition to man and _his own world...for salvation. All_ men stumble. Or have. There is no boasting.

Watch therefore, and pray always, that you may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Prayers in good weather avail much when the unseen storm is suddenly upon them. And _every man_...is appointed to that...storm. All the virgins...fell asleep. So that _none confuse_ himself with the One who is coming.


How men see and _are pressed_ to speech...shows what they are. And what they are...of.

The man not "of Him" can do nothing but revile, the man "of Him" understands he is _given time_ to repent to a better sight. Neither man is any better than the other, one is simply _forced to see_ what he has the gift of time _for_.
And he is allowed to use that gift. And _invest it_ in repentance.

This, his Master has bonded to...zeal. It is enough.

"Behold, I come quickly" He says to what _needs constant reminder_...to look, and see. This, is grace. The Word _from the fullness of mind _to be mindful.

Repentance...what an unspeakably gracious gift. Its hearing in command, changes all of hearing.


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## matt79brown (Jun 19, 2018)

Maybe this thread should be titled ''Suicide has an Atheism problem''?


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## oldfella1962 (Jun 20, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah it’s pretty quiet up there. The best discussions happen here.



I tend to agree! Sad that many people assume anyone on a southern based "outdoor" forum just has to be a conservative/redneck/bible thumping hick.
An open mind would put that stereotype to rest for good - but we know that won't happen.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 20, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Might be from the pressures of living in a religious world. Was reading some of the comments about Anthony Bourdain committing suicide. It was mentioned that maybe it was because of Atheism and maybe Liberalism.
> 
> One can't just kill himself anymore without something deeper causing it. I would assume white collar conservative Christians kill themselves as well but do Atheist do it more often? From living in a religious world? What about homosexuals living in a heterosexual world? Black people living in a White world? Jews living in an Arab country? A sailor stationed on a Army base?
> 
> Atheists are often isolated and ostracized. Is there a greater suicide problem? Is it based on living in a religious world?






> One can't just kill himself anymore without something deeper causing it.



This may be my mostest favoritest thing I ever read.  Pure genius.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jun 20, 2018)

Does it make by Signature look fat.


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## 660griz (Jun 24, 2018)

atlashunter said:


> Don’t know if that’s true but I suppose it could be. Many Christians believe suicide sends you to the hot place so maybe that is a deterrent. I’ve never been truly suicidal but I’m sure most of the times I contemplated it was when I was still a believer, not that the one had anything to do with the other. I don’t buy the theory that being surrounded by Christians makes an atheist suicidal.



It is my understanding that suicide is a sin is a recent addition. There was a huge Christian suicide rate. After all, Heaven seemed like a better place than here. Especially without running water, A/c, or bug spray. The 'church' declared it a sin.  To stem the tide of losing tithing givers?


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## oldfella1962 (Jul 12, 2018)

Spotlite said:


> Could have, yes. But the outcome would have been ineffective.



Not really - can you imagine how cool it would be if artists painted pictures & murals of Roman loaf-of-bread soldiers wielding feathery tickle things on jesus?
BTW no doubt if turned into bread, they would be Roman Meal brand.


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