# Was Jesus punished for our sins?



## Artfuldodger

I know Jesus died for our sins and that he suffered on the cross for our sins, but "punished"? I don't even believe Jesus is God and have trouble using the word "punished". 
But if he took the wrath of our sins from us, so that we wouldn't be punished?
I guess if you believe the wages of sin is death and not he!! then Jesus took our punishment.


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## Artfuldodger

I just read this discussion:
The Jews accused Him, the Romans crucified Him but ultimately God killed Him. Jesus took our place, He took the wrath upon Himself from the Father that was meant for all of us because God must punish sin.

(Acts 2:23) 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

And the idea that God killed Jesus? Just because Father knows what is going to happen, doesn't make Him responsible for that. That would be the same argument used by the atheists when they say the same about murder abortion and other hideous acts committed by MAN, and refuse to believe in how a God could purposely let those acts happen. Right?


If there is no wrath involved, then what is punishment for sin? If there is punishment for sin, and Jesus TOOK and BORE ALL the sin of the world on Himself, then what was the punishment for this massive, MASSIVE, sin He was undertaking upon himself?


Either there is punishment for sin, or there isn't. And if there is, then by claiming that Jesus bore the sin for us, then what was His punishment.

 Do you not see where I am going with this? Either He bore it ALL, or He didn't. Either He is our sacrificial Lamb, or He is the Scapegoat.


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## jkkj

I don't think he was punished for sin but I do believe he bore all sin.He was doing the will of the father. He did it out of LOVE for everyone. It is a decision everyone has to make whether or not they receive this love. If you don't ask for forgiveness and believe in JESUS , then yes, you will be punished.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I just read this discussion:
> The Jews accused Him, the Romans crucified Him but ultimately God killed Him. Jesus took our place, He took the wrath upon Himself from the Father that was meant for all of us because God must punish sin.
> 
> .


My sin put him on the cross....Im the guilty one here..but  He has risen!


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## Jeffriesw

Artfuldodger said:


> I just read this discussion:
> The Jews accused Him, the Romans crucified Him but ultimately God killed Him. Jesus took our place, He took the wrath upon Himself from the Father that was meant for all of us because God must punish sin.
> 
> (Acts 2:23) 23 This man was handed over to you by God’s set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
> 
> And the idea that God killed Jesus? Just because Father knows what is going to happen, doesn't make Him responsible for that. That would be the same argument used by the atheists when they say the same about murder abortion and other hideous acts committed by MAN, and refuse to believe in how a God could purposely let those acts happen. Right?
> 
> 
> If there is no wrath involved, then what is punishment for sin? If there is punishment for sin, and Jesus TOOK and BORE ALL the sin of the world on Himself, then what was the punishment for this massive, MASSIVE, sin He was undertaking upon himself?
> 
> 
> Either there is punishment for sin, or there isn't. And if there is, then by claiming that Jesus bore the sin for us, then what was His punishment.
> 
> Do you not see where I am going with this? Either He bore it ALL, or He didn't. Either He is our sacrificial Lamb, or He is the Scapegoat.



He bore the sin for those the Father has given him.


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## formula1

*Re:*

From our perspective, it  is punishment as the death on the cross is by human definition, extreme punishment.  It is a payment for a sin.  That by definition is punishment. I am convinced, however, Jesus never saw it that way, but rather He saw it as a mission to destroy the power of sin over all mankind once and for all.  A payment was required and the the Son, Christ Jesus, the sacrifical Lamb, accepted with Joy His role in defeating sin once and for all. By acceptance by faith of Christ as payment for your own sin, you become a partaker of the eternal hope He have given you.  Without His payment, none of us have anything! So let us eagerly wait for Him!

2 Corinthians 5:20-21
20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Romans 5
6 For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7 For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— 8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. 10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. 

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.

Hebrews 9
26 (part) But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, 28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him.


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## Ronnie T

Well said formula.

Jesus didn't become the pure sacrifice for our sins so that we could continue to enjoy our sins, yet gain forgiveness for them in the end......................................
Jesus died so that we could be released from the powers that forced us to sin.  Through our resurrected, slain savior, we have been given the power to resist sin.  Because of Jesus' sacrifice there is no temptation that we cannot resist.
And even when we do stumble in sin, that shed blood of Christ forgives those who are living in His glorious light.

Was Jesus punished for our sins??  No.  We all continue to be punished for our sins.  Look around you.


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## gtparts

Artfuldodger said:


> I know Jesus died for our sins and that he suffered on the cross for our sins, but "punished"? I don't even believe Jesus is God and have trouble using the word "punished".
> But if he took the wrath of our sins from us, so that we wouldn't be punished?
> I guess if you believe the wages of sin is death and not he!! then Jesus took our punishment.



Christ accomplished two things on the cross that we might be reconciled to God.

1) Expiation


2) Propitiation

Look them up and do a little study. It should help you understand that 'punished' is entirely correct and appropriate. 

It may be that you dislike the idea that an innocent was punished, but Jesus took our punishment (that we rightly deserved) for us. Or, it could just be semantics.

He!! is nothing more than being eternally separated from God and knowing it. The human mind cannot fully grasp this truth, but it can only be characterized as "most extreme". 

Also, you might consider that there are two 'deaths': 1) physical - separating soul from body and 2) spiritual - separating the soul from God.


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## Ronnie T

Was Jesus punished for our sins?

While many of us have been taught this as a fundamental truth of Christianity, it is absolutely without any Biblical warrant. The truth is that this is nothing more than theory. It is something that people have used to build towers of doctrinal presumption upon for years.  This unbiblical assumption is used as the basis and foundation for all kinds of doctrine. The danger of this is that is that the foundation they build upon is not from the Bible. If we build upon a foundation that is false, it can only lead to more false doctrine in the long run.  

Now, what the Scriptures do say is that Jesus suffered for our sins. Suffering is not punishment. Punishment requires personal guilt. Jesus was without sin and guilt, and therefore could only suffer as a substitute for sins, and not be punished for our sins.


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## gtparts

Ronnie T said:


> Was Jesus punished for our sins?
> 
> While many of us have been taught this as a fundamental truth of Christianity, it is absolutely without any Biblical warrant. The truth is that this is nothing more than theory. It is something that people have used to build towers of doctrinal presumption upon for years.  This unbiblical assumption is used as the basis and foundation for all kinds of doctrine. The danger of this is that is that the foundation they build upon is not from the Bible. If we build upon a foundation that is false, it can only lead to more false doctrine in the long run.
> 
> Now, what the Scriptures do say is that Jesus suffered for our sins. Suffering is not punishment. Punishment requires personal guilt. Jesus was without sin and guilt, and therefore could only suffer as a substitute for sins, and not be punished for our sins.



Had you asked, 





> Was Jesus punished for His sins?


, I would absolutely disagree. 

As it is, He accepted our punishment. He willingly suffered for our sin. Had He not taken our sin upon Himself, had He not suffered in our place, that we might be credited with His righteousness, what was He doing on the cross? 

Was He suffering for the sake of feeling pain and experiencing death? No.

The Scriptures are full of accounting terms of that day, clearly picturing our old standing as debtors before a holy God, illustrating the ledgers bearing entries for our sin being fully offset by Christ's righteousness and His ledger bearing the sin of the world, for which a just and perfect God made demand for payment. Christ became sin for us, paying our debt on the cross and making us spotless before holy God. 

Isaiah says that "the LORD laid on Him the iniquity of us all". 

Chapter 53 says it all.

*Isaiah 53 *

The Message (MSG)

 53 Who believes what we’ve heard and seen?
    Who would have thought God’s saving power would look like this?

  <sup class="versenum">2-6 </sup>The servant grew up before God—a scrawny seedling,
    a scrubby plant in a parched field.
There was nothing attractive about him,
    nothing to cause us to take a second look.
He was looked down on and passed over,
    a man who suffered, who knew pain firsthand.
One look at him and people turned away.
    We looked down on him, thought he was scum.
But the fact is, it was _our_ pains he carried—
_our_ disfigurements, all the things wrong with _us._
We thought he brought it on himself,
    that God was punishing him for his own failures.
But it was our sins that did that to him,
    that ripped and tore and crushed him—_our sins!_
He took the punishment, and that made us whole.
    Through his bruises we get healed.
We’re all like sheep who’ve wandered off and gotten lost.
    We’ve all done our own thing, gone our own way.
And God has piled all our sins, everything we’ve done wrong,
    on him, on him.

  <sup class="versenum">7-9 </sup>He was beaten, he was tortured,
    but he didn’t say a word.
Like a lamb taken to be slaughtered
    and like a sheep being sheared,
    he took it all in silence.
Justice miscarried, and he was led off—
    and did anyone really know what was happening?
He died without a thought for his own welfare,
    beaten bloody for the sins of my people.
They buried him with the wicked,
    threw him in a grave with a rich man,
Even though he’d never hurt a soul
    or said one word that wasn’t true.

  <sup class="versenum">10 </sup>Still, it’s what God had in mind all along,
    to crush him with pain.
The plan was that he give himself as an offering for sin
    so that he’d see life come from it—life, life, and more life.
    And God’s plan will deeply prosper through him.

  <sup class="versenum">11-12 </sup>Out of that terrible travail of soul,
    he’ll see that it’s worth it and be glad he did it.
Through what he experienced, my righteous one, my servant,
    will make many “righteous ones,”
    as he himself carries the burden of their sins.
Therefore I’ll reward him extravagantly—
    the best of everything, the highest honors—
Because he looked death in the face and didn’t flinch,
    because he embraced the company of the lowest.
He took on his own shoulders the sin of the many,
    he took up the cause of all the black sheep.


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## Ronnie T

Then we agree.

Jesus "endured the death that we deserved".....
But Jesus was not "punished for our sins".

He took our sins upon Himself.
But He could have called 10,000 angels....

The one who was sinless took upon Himself
the sins of those who were sinful and unworthy.


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## Artfuldodger

Jesus was beaten and tortured but if he was punished for our sins wouldn't he be in He!!? After all that's what our punishment would have been.


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## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was beaten and tortured but if he was punished for our sins wouldn't he be in He!!? After all that's what our punishment would have been.


 
It's been said by some that in the span of the 3 days before being risen from the dead that Christ suffered the equivalent of eternity in hades from a Divine perspective.  I won't speculate right or wrong on that, but its quite a thing to consider if warranted in any way.

One thing for sure is that when we see Him face to face, we will know full well the depth at which He suffered for us, and we will toss any crowns at His feet.  The magnitude of the sacrifice is beyond anything we can imagine; a sinless Savior bearing all our sin and taking away, as Ronnie mentioned, it's power to hold us to it's trap.  Thanks be to God for His unspeakable gift! 2 Corinthians 9:15


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was beaten and tortured but if he was punished for our sins wouldn't he be in He!!? After all that's what our punishment would have been.



The wages of sin is death. Christs human body could not die until it had experienced sin.The sin He took on so He could die was mine, and everyone else that has been saved by the cross.
 We all deserve - he11 for our sins, but because he took it on, and shed divine blood, that we can accept when we are born again...we too will defeat death, and escape -he11-. 
True grace is known when we men deserving of he11 accept the blood, and are betrothed to the King himself!

   Thats the way I see it anyways.


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## RNC

Isaiah 53:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.


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## Busters Dad

*was jesus punished for our sins?*

No!  Jesus took on our punishment for our sins upon himself.   Jesus is God.  Think of the Trinity as H2O - water.
think of God as the water, then Jesus as ice and the Holy Spirit as fog.  All the same, H2O but in different forms.

Jesus was concieved - human, He was born - human, He was crucified - human, He died - human.  Jesus was resurected - God,  He ascended - God,  He  will judge - God.  So you see jesus is God as man.


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't even believe Jesus is God



I get hung up on your doctrine of Christ.  I don't think I can answer your initial question without first addressing your belief that Jesus was not God....because everything in Christianity hangs upon the fact that Jesus is God.


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## Huntinfool

MAN I'm glad somebody finally mentioned that!

If he's not divine, then what he did on the cross bears no significance at all because he was simply a fake and everything he said and did was a lie.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> MAN I'm glad somebody finally mentioned that!



Why'd you wait for it?



Huntinfool said:


> If he's not divine, then what he did on the cross bears no significance at all because he was simply a fake and everything he said and did was a lie.



Actually.......we agree on this


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## Huntinfool

> Why'd you wait for it?



Because I'm getting lazy in my old age...


....and because I read part of the OP and then clicked out of it originally.  Like I said...lazy (with the single exception of keeping up with Ham's every move).


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## gtparts

If Jesus didn't take the hit for us, we aren't redeemable. We still bear the weight and judgment of our sin.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ....and because I read part of the OP and then clicked out of it originally.



Some of these positions, as those demonstrated in the OP, are completely lost on me.....so I typically do not jump into these threads so much.  I just saw a little opening for a  at you, which is the only reason I jumped in 

I don't think it's lazy, for me anyway, I just scratch my head, and if I can't quite grasp where it's coming from, I just back away.


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## Ronnie T

I believe if you sat down to chat with Artfuldodger concerning God and Jesus you'd find he agrees with you, but he discribes it in a different way.

Artfuldodger would say that Jesus is the exact representation of God, but Jesus, as God's son, talks with God and obeys God so there is a separation that needs to be acknowledged.


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## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> I believe if you sat down to chat with Artfuldodger concerning God and Jesus you'd find he agrees with you, but he discribes it in a different way.
> 
> Artfuldodger would say that Jesus is the exact representation of God, but Jesus, as God's son, talks with God and obeys God so there is a separation that needs to be acknowledged.



Sorry, but I'm gonna have to politely disagree. Either you believe Jesus is God or you don't.


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## Artfuldodger

I believe Jesus is the divine Son of God who God the Father sent to die on the cross for our sins, who was with God from the beginning, 
and who is with God now in Heaven but that's a topic we've already discussed.


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## hobbs27

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Jesus is the divine Son of God who God the Father sent to die on the cross for our sins, who was with God from the beginning,
> and who is with God now in Heaven but that's a topic we've already discussed.



So you believe in two Gods, or possible three when you throw the Holy Spirit in there?


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Sorry, but I'm gonna have to politely disagree. Either you believe Jesus is God or you don't.



And I'll see your disagreement, and politely disagree.


.


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> So you believe in two Gods, or possible three when you throw the Holy Spirit in there?



Absolutely not.  That's not at all what he said.
Don't make him say something he didn't!


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## Ronnie T

There's a place in the Bible that describes God speaking, from His throne in heaven.  Jesus has just been raised from the water of His personal baptism.
And God proclaims:  "This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased".

There's also a scripture that says Jesus is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high........

I think it's improper for anyone to attempt to cause Artfuldodger to question what he feels and sees as proper.


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## Artfuldodger

hobbs27 said:


> So you believe in two Gods, or possible three when you throw the Holy Spirit in there?



So you believe God sacrificed himself and you believe God killed Jesus(himself) so now there is no God and that would make Christians atheist? Do you also believe Satan is divine since he has powers?
How do you feel about people who believe Mary is divine?


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## Ronnie T

I just did a "phrase" search of biblegateway.com.

"Jesus is God" is not found in the KJV, the NIV, or the NASB.

So why should someone need to say it to satisfy someone today.

.


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## hobbs27

Ronnie T said:


> I just did a "phrase" search of biblegateway.com.
> 
> "Jesus is God" is not found in the KJV, the NIV, or the NASB.
> 
> So why should someone need to say it to satisfy someone today.
> 
> .



Genesis 1:26
 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after ourlikenes:

27 So God created man in his own image; in the image of God created he him.

Im done with this topic, it's not interesting to me since it's so blatantly obvious to me that Jesus is God, and obviously some are more passionate about it than I,
 May God bless each and every one of you on your lifes and lifes studies.


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## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I get hung up on your doctrine of Christ.  I don't think I can answer your initial question without first addressing your belief that Jesus was not God....because everything in Christianity hangs upon the fact that Jesus is God.



Could you answer the question if I believed in Oneness and not the Trinity? Oneness believers could see your belief as believing in three Gods.
Quote:
Oneness theology specifically maintains that God is absolutely and indivisibly one.[5][6] It equally proclaims that God is not made of a physical body, but is an invisible spirit that can only be seen in theophanies (such as the burning bush) that he creates or manifests, or in the person of the incarnate Jesus Christ. In the person of Jesus, one sees the last, best, and complete theophany of God (Colossians 2:9 KJV : For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily).
Oneness Pentecostalism rejects all concepts of a subordination, duality, trinity, pantheon, co-equality, co-eternity, or other versions of the Godhead that assert plural gods, plural beings, divine "persons", individuals, or multiple centers of consciousness within that Godhead


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## Ronnie T

hobbs27 said:


> Genesis 1:26
> And God said, Let us make man in our image, after ourlikenes:
> 
> 27 So God created man in his own image; in the image of God created he him.
> 
> Im done with this topic, it's not interesting to me since it's so blatantly obvious to me that Jesus is God, and obviously some are more passionate about it than I,
> May God bless each and every one of you on your lifes and lifes studies.



The above verse does not say that Jesus is God!

It says what it says, and I understand the fullness of what it says, but it does not even come close to saying "Jesus is God".

And I really wouldn't mind discussing this further with you.  Very peacefully ofcourse


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## Artfuldodger

Ok now that we're on the Trinity subject, do you know what your Church believes? When did the Trinity first appear as a teaching?
I find everyones beliefs on this subject interesting. I might add, since you asked if the Holy Spirit was a God, that I believe the Holy Spirit is the essence of God not a third part of the Godhead but actually God himself. 
quote:
Edit: it is amazing how many people don't know what the doctrine of the Trinity is. For those who consider themselves trinitarian, but stated that you believe what the question asked, you are NOT trinitarian. The concept of Jesus being the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is contrary to trinitarian teaching. You may not realize it, but if you believe that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, then you have an untaught knowledge of the Oneness of God, which is what the apostles taught. It is NOT, however, what most churches today believe. The word "triune" as applied to God in trinitarian theology suggests that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are completely separate persons who somehow form one God. This, of course, is unscriptural. There is no way that all the fullness of the Godhead can be in Jesus, if Jesus is only one of three. (Col. 2:9) The person who best defined the trinity doctrine was Athanasius. In his creed, he contradicts scripture, and actually backs himself into a corner and admits that the trinity is three gods, three lords, but then hastens to add that their religion does not permit them to SAY three gods or three lords. It's no wonder that churches don't have their people recite the Athanasian creed: it would cause too much confusion and too many questions. So they settle for the Nicene Creed or the Apostles Creed (which the apostles did not write or use), neither of which goes into any real theology. Nevertheless, the information in the Athanasian creed does represent the official beliefs of trinitarian churches, even though it does not represent the beliefs of most people who think they are trinitarian. Ask yourself, do you really know what your church believes? Do you expect to see three thrones in heaven, with three persons? Or do you expect to see only one? Isaiah and John both found themselves standing in heaven, and both recorded the same scene: one throne, and One sitting on it. If there are three persons, where are the other two? Why are the not also there, sitting on thrones? Over and over, scripture says that God is one. There was so little support for the idea of three persons that the Catholic church actually added a verse to the Latin Bible in the early medieval period.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I get hung up on your doctrine of Christ.  I don't think I can answer your initial question without first addressing your belief that Jesus was not God....because everything in Christianity hangs upon the fact that Jesus is God.



Oh, I got to take issue with that statement also.  It is not so.

There is a confession that all Christians must make.
You know what it is, don't you?
Is it:  "I believe that Jesus is God"?  No, that's not what it is.
Or is it: "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Romans 10:9

Everything in Christianity is based upon that confession.

Another.
Jesus asked Peter, "who do you say that I am?"
What did Peter say and Jesus affirm?  "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".

No, noone ever suggested that a Christian must make the confession that Jesus is God.  No one but you.  And millions of others who've learned it as you have learned it.
And it is fine if it needs to be part of a person's theology.

But it isn't a statement that God's word requires.
God's word does state that Jesus has the very same devine nature of God.
It says that when you ask Jesus for something, it's the same as asking God for something.

But it doesn't say that someone has to confess that Jesus is God.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Oh, I got to take issue with that statement also.  It is not so.
> 
> There is a confession that all Christians must make.
> You know what it is, don't you?
> Is it:  "I believe that Jesus is God"?  No, that's not what it is.
> Or is it: "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Romans 10:9
> 
> Everything in Christianity is based upon that confession.
> 
> Another.
> Jesus asked Peter, "who do you say that I am?"
> What did Peter say and Jesus affirm?  "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".
> 
> No, noone ever suggested that a Christian must make the confession that Jesus is God.  No one but you.  And millions of others who've learned it as you have learned it.
> And it is fine if it needs to be part of a person's theology.
> 
> But it isn't a statement that God's word requires.
> God's word does state that Jesus has the very same devine nature of God.
> It says that when you ask Jesus for something, it's the same as asking God for something.
> 
> But it doesn't say that someone has to confess that Jesus is God.



Thanks for letting everyone know what the Bible says. That Jesus died for our sins. Jesus said "If you have seen me, you have seen the Father". Jesus also said that only the Father knows when he is coming back to Earth. Jesus said he is not greater than the one who sent him. Jesus prays to God while on Earth. Jesus is given authority by God. etc.etc.

Jesus died on the cross for our sins. Arose from the dead and ascended in a glorified body up into the clouds and on into Heaven. 

The plurality of God is a mystery. Trinity, Duality, or Oneness? Is Satan divine? Is Mary divine. Does anyone have any power other than what God ultimately gives them? Again Jesus gives all power to God the Father, the one and only true God. Amen


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## Ronnie T

Amen.  Jesus, my Lord and savior, gives all power to God the Father.


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## Huntinfool

To clarify this and to not put words in anybody's mouth, it appears to me that there is a modalism theme going on here.  God in three individual persons.  There is not a trinity in modalism.  There is God, the Father.  There is the Son, Jesus and there is the Holy Spirit. Three individuals not sharing the same nature.  God reveals himself in different forms at different times.



As RJ said, Jesus' divinity and triune-ness is important.  A few points to offer here for you guys to think on with me:

Throughout the NT, Jesus is referred to as Lord (Kurios), meaning "Master".  If God is supreme over Jesus and (as Ronnie indicates) Jesus is not God, then we have a problem.  God is a jealous God and he will allow no other master but himself.  That is a scriptural truth found throughout the entirely of both the OT and NT.  Jesus cannot be "Kurios" and not be God.  If he is, then we are breaking the earliest of commands...thou shalt have no other gods before me and we violate the biblical statement that a man cannot serve two masters.  If Jesus is FROM God and given power BY him...but not God, he still cannot be Lord or master.  God must be.

Colossians 2 fills the gap for Ronnie's "Jesus is God" search.  



> Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
> See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.
> 
> (Colossians 2:6-15 ESV)



In Jesus, the whole fullness of diety dwells bodily.  Not part of it, not just some authority given him....the fullness of diety (God).  Let me say it again.  The fullness of diety.  The Bible clearly tells us that the is ONE God.  If the fullness of the one true diety dwells in Jesus (fullness meaning "all" or "complete"), then Jesus is indeed God and Lord and Master (Kurios).

Jesus also is ascribed the quality of being "the head of all rule and authority".  Again...if he is not God, then he CANNOT be head of all rule and authority.  If we put him in that place, then he must be God or we are blaspheming.

Also, in this passage, who is made alive together with Christ?  The very clear implication of the statement?  God died with Christ and was risen with him....because they are one in the same.



I think the simplest proof that Jesus was and is God is just this:

  Isaiah 7:14 says "Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

Matthew confirms the meaning of this in his gospel.  1:22, "All this took place to fulfill what the Lord (Kurios..same title given Jesus) had spoken by the prophet: 'Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and they shall call his name Immanuel' (which means, God with us).

They shall call Jesus, Immanuel....God with us.  Not God's son given authority by God.  Not someone who is not God, but God himself...with us.  Jesus, by the very name given him in a vision to the prophet Isaiah, is God...with us.

We can talk through the details of why it's important that Jesus was fully man and fully God if we need to.

I won't belabor this thread with continued defense of this.  You guys can discuss.  I just thought it was important to put this out there.

The Trinity and the nature of God is, admittedly, something none of us will fully understand until we bow before him in Heaven.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I just did a "phrase" search of biblegateway.com.
> 
> "Jesus is God" is not found in the KJV, the NIV, or the NASB.
> 
> So why should someone need to say it to satisfy someone today.




You're correct, the phrase "Jesus is God" does not appear anywhere in the Bible (any translation).  

However, if your logic is that, since the exact phrase doesn't appear in the text, Jesus must not be God, I think we have a seriously flawed bit of logic.

I think what you're saying is that you don't have to acknowledge that Jesus is God in order to be saved.  While there is a morsel of truth to that, I think there is a fine line between not actually saying it and actually saying that Jesus is NOT God.  What the Bible requires is faith in Christ.  You're right.  But it is important to understand who Christ is...don't you agree?

For that matter the phrase "don't have pre-marital sex" isn't in there either.  But I bet you could make a pretty strong case from scripture (any translation) that this is a biblically true statement, right?


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Oh, I got to take issue with that statement also.  It is not so.
> 
> There is a confession that all Christians must make.
> You know what it is, don't you?
> Is it:  "I believe that Jesus is God"?  No, that's not what it is.
> Or is it: "that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."  Romans 10:9
> 
> Everything in Christianity is based upon that confession.
> 
> Another.
> Jesus asked Peter, "who do you say that I am?"
> What did Peter say and Jesus affirm?  "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God".
> 
> No, noone ever suggested that a Christian must make the confession that Jesus is God.  No one but you.  And millions of others who've learned it as you have learned it.
> And it is fine if it needs to be part of a person's theology.
> 
> But it isn't a statement that God's word requires.
> God's word does state that Jesus has the very same devine nature of God.
> It says that when you ask Jesus for something, it's the same as asking God for something.
> 
> But it doesn't say that someone has to confess that Jesus is God.



Yes...all Christianity hinges on the fact that Jesus is God.  If you don't believe that Jesus is God, it is a false religion different than that taught in the Bible.  So, to believe otherwise is to dam oneself to hel!

Look at John 8:57-59

57 So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” 59 Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple.



The Jews knew what Jesus was saying.  He was saying He was the "I AM."  Just as God told Moses in Exodus.  Jesus = I AM.  God = I AM.  Jesus = God.  They thought this was blasphemy and wanted to kill him for it.


----------



## Huntinfool

> “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”



Well, there's that one too!  Honestly, there's so many it would be tough to post them all.  But you're right, that is a very important one especially given who God told Moses to tell the egyptians sent him....I bet you'll NEVER guess what he told him!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> We can talk through the details of why it's important that Jesus was fully man and fully God if we need to.




Did God die?



Huntinfool said:


> The Trinity and the nature of God is, admittedly, something none of us will fully understand until we bow before him in Heaven.



You have confused me a bit.  One or three seperate deities?  For instance, Matt Ryan and Roddy White are both Falcons, but different parts of the team.....that's kind-of the take I have always had on it.

Otherwise, certain aspects of the gospel would just be confusing (why have you forsaken me, etc).


----------



## Huntinfool

> Did God die?



Yes.  In his physical human manifestation...he did.  That, in no way, means that he ceased to exist.  He was not and is not a created being.  Jesus was not created.  He said himself that he existed before time.  Jesus, as God, took a physical body and that body ceased life functions and was risen.  He was God before the cross, he was God in death and he was and is God now in resurrection.



> You have confused me a bit. One or three seperate deities?



The Lord, your God, he is one.

As RJ just posted, "I Am" sent Moses and "I Am" is who Jesus identified himself as.  

One God with one nature.  Three persons.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> One in nature.  Three persons.



....such as my Falcons example?


----------



## formula1

*Re:*

This is the way I see this whole issue:

Water - Solid, Liquid, and Gas, but still water. Three forms, yet still the same. Try cooling your drink with steam or water, or washing your hands in ice or steam, or boiling a egg in water or ice! Yet all three, solid, liquid, gas are H2O.

God - The Creator of all
Jesus - The Agent of Creation, The Word of God
Holy Spirit - The Communicator of God's will and intent to men.

Three forms we see described with unique roles, yet one in essence.  None with the same role but all God and unique in purpose. 

Now I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their beliefs or explain in absolutely known detail the complete essence of God. But this is the best way it makes sense to me in a limited earthly mind with the Holy Spirit bearing witness.

Scripture?
God - Genesis 1, Deut 6:4, Exodus 20:1-7,Exodus 3:13-14
Jesus - John 1:3-4, John 8:58-59, John 17:5, John 5:17-21,John 10:30-33, John 10:18, Hebrews 1:3
Holy Spirit - Acts 5:1-4, Romans 8:15-16
All three - 2 Corinthians 13:14, Matthew 28:19, Matthew 3:13-16

I could continue, but the reality is simply this, Christ our Redeemer through His willing walk to the cross, bore our sins on the tree and reconciled us to God the Father. He sealed us with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our reconciliation.  Those who have made Christ their Lord are my family! God bless!


----------



## Huntinfool

> ....such as my Falcons example?



Not really I don't think.  Roddy is not Matt.  Matt is not Roddy.  But both are Falcons.  Both Matt and Roddy have identities that are seperate from each other outside of being Falcons.  

God is one in nature meaning that, even though there are three persons in the God-head, they do not maintain an identity seperate from each other.  They are one.  Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father and conceived of the HS and the HS eternally procedes from the Father and is the spirit of the Son.  

Just like Jesus, the HS is ascribed characteristics in the Bible that can ONLY be true of God.  He is to be worshipped.  He is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent.



I'm not going to pretend that I have a perfect understanding of the Trinity.  That would be over the top arrogance IMO.  The mysteries of God are too high for us, right?

But, IMO, the Bible is very clear that Jesus was both identified as God and indentified himself as God.


----------



## thedeacon

Was Jesus punished for out sins?

Using a play on words when it comes to God and his blessings
on us is fruitless  most of the time.

Jesus suffered a terrible death, it was his choice, I fully believe
that he could have refused and his father would have relieved
him of that suffering. Jesus died as a sacrafice, a perfect one
I might add. Was he punished, I don't think so because there
was no guilt and everyone that is a Christian knows that he was
guiltless. He died so that I would not be punished for my sins.

The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As long as you believe 
that they are all alive and well you are on the right track.
Personally I think their is one God head. I don't know exactly
what they look like when they line up togather but I know their
is one Godhead but there is three parts to that God. I do know
that when Jesus was on earth he was God but he prayed to
his Father. I also know that he was in a human vessel that suffered 
pain, depression, sorrow, anger etc. just like all humans do.
In my opinion Our pain and suffering is something that Jesus takes personally because he felt it.

I think that we all feel basicall the same we just express it in differant ways.

God Bless


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> God is one in nature meaning that, even though there are three persons in the God-head, they do not maintain an identity seperate from each other.  They are one.  Jesus is eternally begotten of the Father and conceived of the HS and the HS eternally procedes from the Father and is the spirit of the Son.



Not that I really have a strong opinion on this subject, as I am clearly no scholar compared to many on here, but I struggle with the concept of them being "one" for many reasons.  Particulary Jesus praying the night before the crucifixion, and the contents of that prayer.  It seems there are clearly limitations and an interaction between the two.  Second, Jesus' statements on the cross.  It goes on, but those two moments stand out to me as identifying that there are seperate identities within the one nature.

Such as different Falcons having different roles on the same team.

But, really, I don't know much about this.  



Huntinfool said:


> But, IMO, the Bible is very clear that Jesus was both identified as God and indentified himself as God.



I agree, but again, I am slightly confused as to the nature of the identification....see above comments.


----------



## Huntinfool

I agree that the Trinity is a confusing subject and we won't know all the answers until the Day of the Lord.


----------



## StriperAddict

formula1 said:


> This is the way I see this whole issue:
> 
> Water - Solid, Liquid, and Gas, but still water. Three forms, yet still the same. Try cooling your drink with steam or water, or washing your hands in ice or steam, or boiling a egg in water or ice! Yet all three, solid, liquid, gas are H2O.
> 
> God - The Creator of all
> Jesus - The Agent of Creation, The Word of God
> Holy Spirit - The Communicator of God's will and intent to men.
> 
> Three forms we see described with unique roles, yet one in essence. None with the same role but all God and unique in purpose.
> 
> Now I'm not trying to convince anyone to change their beliefs or explain in absolutely known detail the complete essence of God. But this is the best way it makes sense to me in a limited earthly mind with the Holy Spirit bearing witness.
> 
> Scripture?
> God - Genesis 1, Deut 6:4, Exodus 20:1-7,Exodus 3:13-14
> Jesus - John 1:3-4, John 8:58-59, John 17:5, John 5:17-21,John 10:30-33, John 10:18, Hebrews 1:3
> Holy Spirit - Acts 5:1-4, Romans 8:15-16
> All three - 2 Corinthians 13:14, Matthew 28:19, Matthew 3:13-16
> 
> I could continue, but the reality is simply this, Christ our Redeemer through His willing walk to the cross, bore our sins on the tree and reconciled us to God the Father. He sealed us with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our reconciliation. Those who have made Christ their Lord are my family! God bless!


 
Nicely written to 'draw out' each one's faith (IMO). Thanks for posting.


----------



## Artfuldodger

As important as it must be for Jesus to be God himself, why in God's name didn't Jesus tell us that in the Bible? If Jesus knew the turmoil it would have caused, he could have flat out said he was God over and over throughout the Bible. God could have helped out too. He could have said in the Old Testament that he would be coming to Earth to save us personally.


----------



## StriperAddict

Artfuldodger said:


> As important as it must be for Jesus to be God himself, why in God's name didn't Jesus tell us that in the Bible? If Jesus knew the turmoil it would have caused, he could have flat out said he was God over and over throughout the Bible. God could have helped out too. He could have said in the Old Testament that he would be coming to Earth to save us personally.


 
But he did...
Isaiah 7:14 for starts...  Emmanuel, which translated means "God with us".

And the Scribes and Pharasees knew exactly what He meant and was doing when He forgave men their sins... something God alone does, and in so doing, making Him the target of their misguided ridicule; that they did not believe He was indeed the "I AM" of the OT.


----------



## Artfuldodger

If Jesus was God

At the very outset of Jesus’ ministry, when he came up out of the baptismal water, God’s voice from heaven said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” (Matthew 3:16, 17) Was God saying that he was his own son, that he approved himself, that he sent himself? No, God the Creator was saying that he, as the superior, was approving a lesser one, his Son Jesus, for the work ahead. Jesus indicated his Father’s superiority when he said: “Jehovah’s spirit is upon me, because he anointed me to declare good news to the poor.” (Luke 4:18) Anointing is the giving of authority or a commission by a superior to someone who does not already have authority. Here God is plainly the superior, for he anointed Jesus, giving him authority that he did not previously have. Jesus made his Father’s superiority clear when the mother of two disciples asked that her sons sit one at the right and one at the left of Jesus when he came into his Kingdom. Jesus answered: “As for seats at my right hand and my left, these are not mine to grant; they belong to those to whom they have been allotted by my Father,” that is, God. (Matthew 20:23) Had Jesus been Almighty God, those positions would have been his to give. But Jesus could not give them, for they were God’s to give, and Jesus was not God.
Jesus’ own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: “Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place.” (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to “remove this cup. ”Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: “My God, my God, why have you deserted me?” (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, “My God,” was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?After Jesus died, he was in the tomb for parts of three days. The Bible says that Jesus died and was unconscious in the tomb. Who resurrected Jesus from the dead? If he was truly dead, he could not have resurrected himself. On the other hand, if he was not really dead, his pretended death would not have paid the ransom price for Adam’s sin. But he did pay that price in full by his genuine death. So it was “God [who] resurrected [Jesus] by loosing the pangs of death.” (Acts 2:24) 
Does Jesus’ ability to perform miracles, such as resurrecting people, indicate that he was God? Well, the apostles and the prophets Elijah and Elisha had that power too, but that did not make them more than men. God gave the power to perform miracles to the prophets, Jesus, and the apostles to show that He was backing them. But it did not make any of them part of a plural Godhead or trinity.

1 Timothy 2:5 
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

“You heard me say, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." 


One scripture sometimes used by people who accept the trinity is John 14:7:
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.” Some Christians feel this proves God and Jesus were the same person. However, reading the verse in context demonstrates this is not at all what the Savior was saying.
In verse 10, Jesus says, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.” Here, Jesus Christ clearly says he isn’t speaking for Himself, but for God, and it’s God doing the works, not Him. This makes it very clear they are separate beings. Jesus promises to pray to God to ask God to send a comforter to His apostles when He’s gone, something that would not be necessary if they were the same person. But in verse 20, we learn exactly what Jesus means when He talks about being in the Father:
“At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” If the previous verses had the meaning that “I am in my Father” meant they were the same person, then the next phrase, “And ye in me, and I in you” would mean the apostles were also the same person as Jesus, making it far larger than a trinity. Jesus uses similar phrasing often, instructing the apostles to be one with each other as He is one with His Father. What He meant, obviously, was to be completely unified in love, doctrine, and purpose.
The testimony of Stephen is even more clear about the separateness of Jesus and God: “But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up steadfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.” (Acts 7:55-56)

• Jesus said, "The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (John 13:16) Jesus said on numerous occasions that, "the Father… hath sent me." (John 5:37,6:37) The Holy Ghost was also sent by the Father (John 14:26) and Jesus (John 16:7), thus making Jesus inferior to the Father and the Holy Ghost inferior to both the Father and Jesus.
• "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another comforter, that he may abide with you forever; even the spirit of truth." (John 14:16)
• Jesus prays to God. (John 17:1-3)
• Jesus has faith in God. (Hebrews 2:17,18, Hebrews 3:2)
• Jesus is a servant of God. (Acts 3:13)
• Jesus does not know things God knows. (Mark 13:32, Revelation 1:1)
• Jesus worships God. (John 4:22)
• Jesus has one who is God to him. (Revelation 3:12)
• Jesus is in subjection to God. (1 Corinthians 15:28)
• Jesus' head is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)
• Jesus has reverent submission, fear, of God. (Hebrews 5:7)
• Jesus is given lordship by God. (Acts 2:36)
• Jesus is exalted by God.(Acts 5:31)
• Jesus is made high priest by God. (Hebrews 5:10)
• Jesus is given authority by God. (Philippians 2:9)
• Jesus is given kingship by God. (Luke 1:32,33)
• Jesus is given judgment by God. (Acts 10:42)
• "God raised [Jesus] from the dead". (Acts 2:24, Romans 10:9, 1 Corinthians 15:15)
• Jesus is at the right hand of God. (Mark 16:19, Luke 22:69, Acts 2:33, Romans 8:34)
• Jesus is the one human mediator between the one God and man. (1 Timothy 2:5)
• God put everything, except Himself, under Jesus. (1 Corinthians 15:24-28)
• Jesus did not think being "equal with God" was graspable. (Philippians 2:6)
• "Around the ninth hour, Jesus shouted in a loud voice, saying "Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" which is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"" (Matthew 27:46)


----------



## gemcgrew

Huntinfool said:


> God is God, Jesus is his son and the Holy Spirit is a third entity.  They are not one God.  God, the Father is supreme over the others.


How do they reconcile this in light of 1 John 5:7? 
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> How do they reconcile this in light of 1 John 5:7?
> "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."




Trinitarian scholars now admit this verse was not written by the hand of John. Having access to collections of hundreds of manuscripts, modern scholars are able to determine this verse was introduced into the Bible long after John wrote this letter. However, there are still Trinitarians, especially KJV Onlyists, who are unwilling to accept the facts on this matter and claim this verse is authentic.


----------



## Ronnie T

gemcgrew said:


> How do they reconcile this in light of 1 John 5:7?
> "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."




That is a great verse for an example.
Late in John's gospel John records Jesus' words concerning Jesus' desire that His church always be in unity.  I believe Jesus might have been praying, and He prayed that all believers would be as one, just as He and His father were one.
And it's a great lesson for each of us.  To be of one mind, one spirit, one purpose.  

We all are to speak God's truth.  When Jesus spoke, He only spoke God's will.  When we speak, we should only speak God's will.  But it doesn't mean we'll become God.

The Gospel had ample opportunity to establish a New Testament doctrine of us considering Jesus to be God.  But it purposely did not.  
It provides narrative of God speaking to Jesus.  And narrative of Jesus speaking to God.  Narrative of Jesus asking God to forgive.

The Gospel also speaks of Jesus and God having a unity that far exceeds a simply physical connection.  Any mature student of Christ will come to understand that.

But no Christian has to profess that Jesus is God.

John said:  "In the beginning was the Word,........ and the word was with God, and the Word was God."  "And the Word became flesh".

But that still doesn't say a Christian has to profess that Jesus is God.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Trinitarian scholars now admit this verse was not written by the hand of John. Having access to collections of hundreds of manuscripts, modern scholars are able to determine this verse was introduced into the Bible long after John wrote this letter. However, there are still Trinitarians, especially KJV Onlyists, who are unwilling to accept the facts on this matter and claim this verse is authentic.


Those unnamed trinitarian scholars are always getting in my way as well.


----------



## gtparts

thedeacon said:


> Was Jesus punished for out sins?
> 
> Using a play on words when it comes to God and his blessings
> on us is fruitless  most of the time.
> 
> Jesus suffered a terrible death, it was his choice, I fully believe
> that he could have refused and his father would have relieved
> him of that suffering. Jesus died as a sacrifice, a perfect one
> I might add. *
> 
> Was he punished, I don't think so because there
> was no guilt and everyone that is a Christian knows that he was
> guiltless. He died so that I would not be punished for my sins.*
> 
> The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. As long as you believe
> that they are all alive and well you are on the right track.
> Personally I think their is one God head. I don't know exactly
> what they look like when they line up together but I know their
> is one Godhead but there is three parts to that God. I do know
> that when Jesus was on earth he was God but he prayed to
> his Father. I also know that he was in a human vessel that suffered
> pain, depression, sorrow, anger etc. just like all humans do.
> In my opinion Our pain and suffering is something that Jesus takes personally because he felt it.
> 
> I think that we all feel basically the same we just express it in different ways.
> 
> God Bless



The highlighted area above seems to be contradictory. Crucifixion is a most violent and cruel form of execution, but it is entirely physical. Suffering the wrath of God is not always a physical experience. To be rejected by God, however briefly, would be the epitome of punishment, at least to me.

Our God is the pinnacle of righteousness and justice. Would it be reasonable to adopt the position that God allowed the sinless to suffer? Is that just? How can we reconcile, then, the suffering of Christ to the point of crying out,  _"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" _with Christ being sinless? 

When He took our sin upon Himself and took the just punishment for our sin, is that not exactly what God exacted as appropriate punishment for the "sins of the world"? If we didn't receive the punishment due us, who did? God's very nature demands payment for our rebellion against Him. Jesus is our _hilasmos_, our propitiation,  who completely satisfied the just demands of our Holy Father for judgment on sin, by his death on the Calvary. For God to look on us as righteous (having the proper relationship with Him), Christ gave us His righteousness and took, upon Himself, our unrighteousness. It simply does not work any other way.


----------



## Huntinfool

> The Gospel had ample opportunity to establish a New Testament doctrine of us considering Jesus to be God. But it purposely did not.



Ronnie, it makes me sad that you, of all people would post that.  Do you teach that Jesus isn't God to your congregation?

I showed you very specifically where Jesus is shown to be God himself...as did RJ...as did Striperaddict.

You can choose to ignore it if you want....but please don't represent that the Bible intentionally intended to NOT say that Jesus is, himself, God.  




> It provides narrative of God speaking to Jesus. And narrative of Jesus speaking to God. Narrative of Jesus asking God to forgive.



It does indeed.  So you might ask..."How in the WORLD can God speak to himself silly?"  

"Let us make man in our own image"...





> The Gospel also speaks of Jesus and God having a unity that far exceeds a simply physical connection. Any mature student of Christ will come to understand that.



They do have a unity that far exceeds simple physical connection.  You're right about that.  They share their very nature.



> But no Christian has to profess that Jesus is God.



You are wrong again my friend.  Perhaps no confession that Jesus is God is required for salvation (that's iffy at best).  But, in the end, EVERY knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Kurios)....master.  In this passage Jesus is given the "name that is above all names".  If God is the ultimate supreme being, and Jesus is not God, then the scriptures messed up there, didn't they?  It should say every tongue will confess that GOD is Lord. 

As I said, God is jealous.  He cannot create another being that is to be worshipped and we cannot serve two masters.  If we are to worship and serve Christ (as scripture tells us), then he MUST be God.  



> John said: "In the beginning was the Word,........ and the word was with God, and the Word was God." "And the Word became flesh".



Read the parts in red again.


----------



## Huntinfool

I'm actually not sure I've answered the OP.  I suppose my answer is "kind of".

He was a sacrifice, just like a perfect lamb in the OT.  I do agree with thedeacon in that Jesus was blameless, just like a spotless lamb.

I don't think Jesus was punished any more than the spotless lamb  of the OT was being punished when it was sacrificed on an alter.  It wasn't being punished for something it did.  It was sacrificing to make right what someone else did wrong and that's exactly what Jesus did on the cross.

He was not being punished in the sense that he did something wrong (from God's perspective).  But he was forsaken.  He was bearing the consequence of sin for another.

As far as the Jews and Romans were concerned...of course, yes he was being punished.

BTW....in response to the last statement of the OP...the wages of sin ARE death.  If there's an issue with that, we probably need to talk through that as well.  I'm not really sure how you logic yourself around that unless "some biblical scholars have admitted that Paul didn't write that".


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> But that still doesn't say a Christian has to profess that Jesus is God.



How you can look at John 8 and come to a different conclusion is beyond me.

And it leads to my next question...are JWs Christians?



gemcgrew said:


> Those unnamed trinitarian scholars are always getting in my way as well.







gtparts said:


> God's very nature demands payment for our rebellion against Him. Jesus is our _hilasmos_, our propitiation,  who completely satisfied the just demands of our Holy Father for judgment on sin, by his death on the Calvary. For God to look on us as righteous (having the proper relationship with Him), Christ gave us His righteousness and took, upon Himself, our unrighteousness. It simply does not work any other way.



Amen.


----------



## mtnwoman

John 10:30
I and my Father are one.

If hanging on the cross isn't punishment, I don't know what is. He covered for us. Just as if a man went to prison in his son's sted. The man IS taking the punishment to 'cover' his son. 

Remember, too, there was little understanding about our 'spirit' before the Holy Ghost came on the scene. Christ proved that we live a physical life and then our spirit lives on, when He rose from the dead. That had to be literal because obviously most of those people didn't really get it back then. Jesus showed them in a proof positive way that we do have a spirit that lives even after our flesh is dead.

I agree with what most of you are saying on this, too. Especially gtparts.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> As important as it must be for Jesus to be God himself, why in God's name didn't Jesus tell us that in the Bible? If Jesus knew the turmoil it would have caused, he could have flat out said he was God over and over throughout the Bible. God could have helped out too. He could have said in the Old Testament that he would be coming to Earth to save us personally.



He did come to earth to save us personally....Jesus is God in the flesh. The Holy Spirit (on earth) is God in the spirit.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> BTW....in response to the last statement of the OP...the wages of sin ARE death.  If there's an issue with that, we probably need to talk through that as well.  I'm not really sure how you logic yourself around that unless "some biblical scholars have admitted that Paul didn't write that".



The wages of sin is He11 would be a different punishment than death. Dying and ending everlasting life is the punishment some Christians believe. In other words some believe you die when you die if you aren't going to Heaven. It depends on your belief what punishment you will receive if you don't go to Heaven. We know Jesus died but don't know for sure if he went to He!! , Hades, Sheol, or Paradise.
I believe the final place we go is Heaven or He11.


----------



## Huntinfool

So what you're presenting is annihilationism.  When we die, if we aren't save we are annihilated.  

It's just another unbiblical belief that some hold.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> He did come to earth to save us personally....Jesus is God in the flesh. The Holy Spirit is God in the spirit.



God is a spirit himself, who also has a seperate spirit the "Holy Spirit"? Jesus though has his own different spirit?
Jesus' spirit/soul went somewhere when he died to preach. Jesus being fully God and fully man died. He went to Sheol to preach. Was this his fully human soul or God? Who made Jesus' dead body awken from the grave? Did his soul re-enter his new body?

Luke 23:46
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> It's just another unbiblical belief that some hold.



HF, I'm not taking sides on this point, but would care to give your Biblical case on that?  You and RJ did a fine job with your Biblical position on Jesus being God.....just curious if you care to explain your thoughts here.  Reason I ask is that I know you have a little bit different than mainstream perspective on where a soul goes when it dies, so I wanted to hear what you had to say on this.....and are you differentiating between hades and torment?

Thanks!


----------



## pstrahin

Yes, Jesus was punished for our sins.


----------



## Huntinfool

> HF, I'm not taking sides on this point, but would care to give your Biblical case on that? You and RJ did a fine job with your Biblical position on Jesus being God.....just curious if you care to explain your thoughts here. Reason I ask is that I know you have a little bit different than mainstream perspective on where a soul goes when it dies, so I wanted to hear what you had to say on this.....and are you differentiating between hades and torment?
> 
> Thanks!



I've probably done enough derailing for one day, huh?

I can't start thread from this PC.  But if you care to get one going, maybe we can get this part of the forum back to life again.  Just for clarification though, my "unbiblical" claim was in regard to annihilationism.  There is nothing in the Bible that teaches us that we simply cease to exist if die and aren't saved.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> God is a spirit himself, who also has a seperate spirit the "Holy Spirit"? Jesus though has his own different spirit?
> 
> *As someone else stated the trinity is hard to explain, even though in my spirit I understand it.*
> 
> Jesus' spirit/soul went somewhere when he died to preach.
> 
> *Yes, He preached to those who died and were waiting for judgement, from the way I understand it no one had yet descended into heaven before Christ. Remember when the one man ask the other man for just a drop of water on his finger....he could see him from the 'bad' side. *
> 
> Jesus being fully God and fully man died. He went to Sheol to preach. Was this his fully human soul or God? Who made Jesus' dead body awken from the grave? Did his soul re-enter his new body?


No Jesus' soul did not re-enter His new body, that is the Holy Spirit that we have on earth...Jesus said He would send His spirit to 'take His place' when He went to heaven. Before that we didn't have the Holy Spirit living amongst us, all of the time, everywhere, and all knowing.

God the Father, Jesus the Son of God (God in the flesh) and the Holy Spirit, are one.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe the final place we go is Heaven or He11.



I agree.

Eternal seperation from God would be he11, in itself.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> God could have helped out too. He could have said in the Old Testament that he would be coming to Earth to save us personally.



"I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her _SEED_: and _IT_ shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise _HIS_ heel." (Gen. 3:15)

Keep in mind that the Bible has one Subject and It is Christ.


----------



## barryl

*Trinity*

This is a retreaded subject,oneness perversion.Progressive Revelation, ever heard of it. "common illistration" for understanding the Trinity ! You can fill your name in the blanks. Jesus' own words; "He that hath seen me  has seen the Father." "No man hath seen God at any time." Thats the truth, no contridiction.           Nobody has ever seen _______. You have never seen _______ a day in your life. No man has ever seen _______ at any time in the sense of my soul, for my soul, my bodily shape within me, is invisible. But, he that has seen me has seen ______. Why? Because you have seen my body. Now back to the subject of the thread YES!!!


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Ronnie, it makes me sad that you, of all people would post that.  Do you teach that Jesus isn't God to your congregation?
> 
> I showed you very specifically where Jesus is shown to be God himself...as did RJ...as did Striperaddict.
> 
> You can choose to ignore it if you want....but please don't represent that the Bible intentionally intended to NOT say that Jesus is, himself, God.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It does indeed.  So you might ask..."How in the WORLD can God speak to himself silly?"
> 
> "Let us make man in our own image"...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They do have a unity that far exceeds simple physical connection.  You're right about that.  They share their very nature.
> 
> 
> 
> You are wrong again my friend.  Perhaps no confession that Jesus is God is required for salvation (that's iffy at best).  But, in the end, EVERY knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Kurios)....master.  In this passage Jesus is given the "name that is above all names".  If God is the ultimate supreme being, and Jesus is not God, then the scriptures messed up there, didn't they?  It should say every tongue will confess that GOD is Lord.
> 
> As I said, God is jealous.  He cannot create another being that is to be worshipped and we cannot serve two masters.  If we are to worship and serve Christ (as scripture tells us), then he MUST be God.
> 
> 
> 
> Read the parts in red again.



If you'll check back at all the comments I've made on this subject since last night you'll see that I've never asserted that Jesus was not God.

I've never said that I don't believe Jesus is God.
I've never preached or taught that Jesus is not God.

But for us who are now living spiritual lives in physical bodies, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.
And all believers must make the confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God.

As you said earlier, one day the exact nature of our heavenly father, and our savior, and how God worked in our lifes through His Spirit will be made clearer to us than it is today.  We'll realize things that we had not know before.

Don't be dismayed that I would have a point of view that's different from your.  I come from a different perspective.  Because of my servanthood to God, I am very deliberate to make sure I teach as the apostles taught.  I acknowledge all scripture and all teachings.

No one will ever have to confess Jesus as God for my benefit.

1Cor 4:1  Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord........

....10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor."

I find no comfort or discomfort in whether someone agrees or disagrees with me.  I'm only comforted in the hope that when all is said and done that I have held true to God's will.


----------



## rjcruiser

barryl said:


> This is a retreaded subject,oneness perversion.Progressive Revelation, ever heard of it. "common illistration" for understanding the Trinity ! You can fill your name in the blanks. Jesus' own words; "He that hath seen me  has seen the Father." "No man hath seen God at any time." Thats the truth, no contridiction.           Nobody has ever seen _______. You have never seen _______ a day in your life. No man has ever seen _______ at any time in the sense of my soul, for my soul, my bodily shape within me, is invisible. But, he that has seen me has seen ______. Why? Because you have seen my body. Now back to the subject of the thread YES!!!



Why is it that when you post, I get a feeling that you're yelling at the screen?

I can't make heads or tails as to what you've said above.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> I find no comfort or discomfort in whether someone agrees or disagrees with me.  I'm only comforted in the hope that when all is said and done that I have held true to God's will.



Same here.  But I do find great discomfort for people who disagree with the Bible....for if they disagree with the Bible, they dam themselves to hel!


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Same here.  But I do find great discomfort for people who disagree with the Bible....for if they disagree with the Bible, they dam themselves to hel!



Me too, but from the very beginning, people have been focusing on things the Bible didn't focus on.   

.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ronnie T said:


> Me too, but from the very beginning, people have been focusing on things the Bible didn't focus on.
> 
> .



I'd agree with that statement.

But to say the Bible doesn't focus on the fact that Jesus is God is what I would call a huge miss.


----------



## Ronnie T

Romans 10:8 .... “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> Romans 10:8 .... “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,  that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;  for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.



Amen!

and God knows our heart, He knows if we believe or not or just following blindly because we were 'raised that way'.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Jesus was with God from the beginning. God said "let us make man in our image". He was talking to Jesus not angels.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was with God from the beginning. God said "let us make man in our image". He was talking to Jesus not angels.
> John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
> 
> John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.



Good verse for the discussion.

.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I found a Church that believes as I do and it ain't no JW or Oneness Church. Bad thing is it's in North Carolina. 
Excerpt from their site with link:

So, while some teach that there are "three Gods in one", others say that Jesus is the only God there is, but the truth lies between these two errors. The Father created the Son, "the firstborn of every creature" (Col.1:15), and the Son created all other things. This is easily understood and clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures. Neither the doctrine of the "holy trinity" nor the doctrine of "Jesus only" is true. There are in heaven two persons who are worthy to receive worship: The Father and the Son.

Jesus did say, "I and my Father are one" (Jn.10:30), but the issue is, "how are they one?" The answer is found in Jesus' prayer to his Father, just hours before his crucifixion. In that compassionate prayer for his followers, Jesus pleaded with the Father "that they may be one as we are" (Jn.17:11). So, the question is, "How are believers `one' in Christ?" For in the same way that we are "one" in Christ, the Father and the Son are also "one".

Surely, my dear brothers and sisters in Christ, it is clear to see that this unity is in spirit, not in body. If Jesus were the Father Himself, and we are to be made one as he is one with the Father, then all believers must become the same person. This is nonsense. When believers are made one as Christ and his Father are one, we are united in spirit and mind, not in person. You are you, and I am I. We will never become one person, and neither will the Father and the Son. Nevertheless, in Christ, believers may be "likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind" (Phip. 2:2).

Jesus is not the Father. But he walked so meekly, doing the Father's will, that anyone who saw Jesus was seeing the heart of God in action (Jn.14:7). Jesus showed us the Father (Jn.14:8-9). To know Jesus is to know the Father because Jesus does only what pleases the Father. Jesus and his Father are of the same mind, the same judgment, the same love and purpose. This is the unity that Jesus prayed would be given to us, and it must grieve him deeply to see the called out ones so completely divided and confused by the doctrines of Christianity! If there is any prayer we can pray that must be acceptable with God, surely it is that all His children walk together in the unity of the Spirit and strive together for "the faith that was once delivered unto the saints" (Jude 3).

http://www.isaiah58.com/questions/q_oftheweek36.html#top


----------



## barryl

*No Sir, you are wrong !*



rjcruiser said:


> Why is it that when you post, I get a feeling that you're yelling at the screen?
> 
> I can't make heads or tails as to what you've said above.


What I am talking about is a SIMPLE explanation of the{Trinity} Tripartite being of man. Body, Soul, Spirit. About the Progressive Revalation, when you first were saved did you know all the Rev.? You did what we are all "supposed" to do 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV 1611 AV. The council of Nicea 325, are you still there? I'm not, God has revealed a lot of truth since then. The subject of the thread, Was Jesus punished for our sins? YES !


----------



## mtnwoman

That makes sense to me.

I don't necessarily look at it that way.....but God knows some of us don't understand totally, I know I don't.  I don't know if it makes a difference of which you believe....most of us all believe that Jesus is the Son of God in one way or the other and that's what matters. 

You can divide scripture in more than one way...for example

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....

Does that mean that God gave His ONLY son
Or does it mean He gave is only begotten(born of flesh) son, meaning God may have other sons and that Jesus was His only...begotten Son?

Is whichever you believe endangering your salvation? I don't believe so. 

My point is not to make an entire doctrine out of part or even all of one verse.  All the Word is living Word, not just the jots and tiddles we choose and we push the rest into the background. The Bible is intensely complex, the conviction of the Holy Spirt is what we must/can only rely on.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I've probably done enough derailing for one day, huh?
> 
> I can't start thread from this PC.  But if you care to get one going, maybe we can get this part of the forum back to life again.  Just for clarification though, my "unbiblical" claim was in regard to annihilationism.  There is nothing in the Bible that teaches us that we simply cease to exist if die and aren't saved.



Will do.....tomorrow.....it would be good to get this forum cranking up again.


----------



## mtnwoman

barryl said:


> What I am talking about is a SIMPLE explanation of the{Trinity} Tripartite being of man. Body, Soul, Spirit. About the Progressive Revalation, when you first were saved did you know all the Rev.? You did what we are all "supposed" to do 2 Tim. 2:15 KJV 1611 AV. The council of Nicea 325, are you still there? I'm not, God has revealed a lot of truth since then. The subject of the thread, Was Jesus punished for our sins? YES !



Great explanation.....the bible clearly states that our soul and spirit is/can be seperated and that our flesh it totally another part, but only a part...that makes a whole.

Jesus was flesh...body....and so on.


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> That makes sense to me.
> 
> I don't necessarily look at it that way.....but God knows some of us don't understand totally, I know I don't.  I don't know if it makes a difference of which you believe....most of us all believe that Jesus is the Son of God in one way or the other and that's what matters.
> 
> You can divide scripture in more than one way...for example
> 
> For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son....
> 
> Does that mean that God gave His ONLY son
> Or does it mean He gave is only begotten(born of flesh) son, meaning God may have other sons and that Jesus was His only...begotten Son?
> 
> Is whichever you believe endangering your salvation? I don't believe so.
> 
> My point is not to make an entire doctrine out of part or even all of one verse.  All the Word is living Word, not just the jots and tiddles we choose and we push the rest into the background. The Bible is intensely complex, the conviction of the Holy Spirit is what we must/can only rely on.



Thanks for the words of encouragement. This is all Ronnie was saying earlier. Not that he personally believed the same as me but Biblically didn't condemn me either. 
I still believe Jesus is the divine Son of God who died on the cross for my sins, who was later resurrected by God and ascended into Heaven and now sits at the right hand of God his Father. If that's not enough then someone show me in the Bible a different requirement.


----------



## Artfuldodger

I like this guys sermon:
Did you receive your ideas of Jesus from men, or from a revelational experience? Did you receive them through diligent study of the Scriptures and prayer, or from a man's study guide, denominational statement, or religious course? If you received them of men, without a spiritual experience confirming them, then you cannot be taught the truth; because if a man sent by God tells you something which contradicts that which you, in your own mind's wisdom hold to be the truth, you will most likely reject him. That is what is so evil about the denominations and sects of Christianity. That particular brand or sect DEMANDS that you hold to an idea about God (such as "trinitarian", "oneness", etc.) in order to be a part of it. Paul saw this corruption in the early congregation when he told a group of believers, "they zealously affect you, but not well; yea they would exclude you, that ye might affect them" (Gal.4:17).

http://www.isaiah58.com/questions/q_oftheweek36.html#top


----------



## Artfuldodger

Follow the link to articles on the Father and Son to the right of the page.

Trinity or Travesty?

John David Clark, Sr. - May, 1994

My systematic theology professor once told our class that in order to be a true believer in Jesus Christ one doctrine which we all must believe is the doctrine of the holy trinity. Being probably the only one in the rather large class who did not believe that doctrine, his adamant tone made an especially vivid impression on me. Since those days in the seminary, in conversations with many Christians, I have repeatedly encountered the same passionate confession of faith in the trinity, and I marvel that folks have such an attraction to a doctrine which is not found in the Bible and, from my view, suggested by nothing in it. One book on the trinity concluded by saying, in words close to these, "While no one can fully explain the trinity, and no one can fully understand it, anyone who does not believe in the holy trinity is not truly a follower of Jesus Christ." I must add to that statement that not only can this doctrine not be fully explained or understood, but it cannot be explained or understood in any measure, either fully or in part. At least, I have never met or heard of anyone who could do so.

http://www.goingtojesus.com/topic_fatherandson.html

I found a site disputing the works of this wonderful preacher. Oh well I still feel the way he does on some beliefs.
http://www.joywell.org/apologetics/clark.html


----------



## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> Will do.....tomorrow.....it would be good to get this forum cranking up again.



  

op2:


----------



## gordon 2

Ronnie T said:


> op2:



Is the work of cranking related to crank( the noun) in the context here?

Can't wait to find out.


----------



## Huntinfool

> No one will ever have to confess Jesus as God for my benefit.



Not for yours or for mine.  But for their own.

If you confess Jesus Christ as Lord, then he must be God.  Lord = Master, and we can serve but one Master.  God will not be superceded.  

If they believe in Christ as savior and, somehow, come to the understanding that he is only the Son and not God himself, then they do themselves and their sanctification injustice.



> The Gospel had ample opportunity to establish a New Testament doctrine of us considering Jesus to be God. But it purposely did not.



So, correct my reading of this...

The NT had the opportunity to establish that Jesus was God, but intentionally did not.  That's my translation (or that's the way it reads to me) of what you posted here.  In other words, "Not only does the Bible not say that Jesus is God, it intentionally purposes to say otherwise.".

Could you clarify that for me because there are multiple posts from you of this nature.  I'm not the only one who has read your contributions to this thread as putting forth the idea that Jesus, indeed, is not God.


----------



## Huntinfool

> So, while some teach that there are "three Gods in one",



Not three Gods in One.  One God, One divine nature, three persons.

HUGE difference.  That church doesn't even understand, at the very beginning, what others believe about the Trinity.  

Google had to go all the way to North Carolina to find a church that follows your line of thinking on the issue?  That doesn't raise any red flags for ya, huh?

Not that the mob is always right....but that doesn't raise any concern for you whatsoever that even Google had to go to another state?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> Not three Gods in One.  One God, One divine nature, three persons.
> 
> HUGE difference.  That church doesn't even understand, at the very beginning, what others believe about the Trinity.
> 
> Google had to go all the way to North Carolina to find a church that follows your line of thinking on the issue?  That doesn't raise any red flags for ya, huh?
> 
> Not that the mob is always right....but that doesn't raise any concern for you whatsoever that even Google had to go to another state?



I had to go to North Carolina to find a Church that believed closely as I do. I can find Churches in Georgia that don't believe in the Trinity that share a lot of my beliefs but they also share things that I don't believe. I don't share all the same beliefs as most main stream denominations nor in the following churches. The following Churches don't believe in the Trinity. United Church of God, Christian Universalist, Living Church of God, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, some Pentecostal Assemblies, and Apostolic Churches.


----------



## Huntinfool

> The following Churches don't believe in the Trinity. United Church of God, Unitarian Universalist, Living Church of God, Jehovah's Witness, Mormons, some Pentecostal Assemblies, and Apostolic Churches.




Gonna throw your hat in with Mormons, Universalists and JH's, huh?

Do the trinitarian scholars you were referring to happen to be part of those churches?

This illustrates beautifully why doctrine is, indeed, very important.  There are many churches that teach God and Jesus (Mormons, Univeralists and JH's included).


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> Gonna throw your hat in with Mormons, Universalists and JH's, huh?
> QUOTE]
> 
> Yes I will. I agree with a lot of the same beliefs. I didn't mean the Unitarian Universalist. I meant the Christian Universalist. I get those two mixed up.
> 
> http://www.christianuniversalist.org/
> 
> The Unitarians do not specifically teach the message of an all-loving God proclaimed by Jesus Christ who will save all souls. I can't go along with that belief.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> Do the trinitarian scholars you were referring to happen to be part of those churches?
> QUOTE]
> 
> I don't need Bible scholars. Just good ole boy preachers:
> 
> Joel Hemphill is a minister of the gospel, celebrated songwriter and singer. Widely acclaimed as a legend in southern gospel music, Joel is the writer of over 350 gospel songs including "Jesus Saves," "Consider the Lilies," "I Claim the Blood," "The Only Real Peace," "He's Still Working On Me," "Master of the Wind" and a host of other well known gospel music favorites. One of Joel Hemphill's most recent songs is "The Cost of the Call."
> 
> http://www.21stcr.org/joel_hemphill.html
> http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php?itemid=2768
> 
> Quote from Bro. Joel Hemphill:
> Please note: Not one of the preceding verses says that our salvation is found in believing that Jesus is "God," " God the Son ," or the second person of a Trinity! Then why are we who deny the doctrine of the Trinity, or that Jesus is "God," or "God the Son," fought, hated, despised and un-Christianized by many who hold to the doctrines of the Oneness and the Trinity? Though God's Holy Bible says " Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God (not God), God dwelleth in him, and he in God" (I John 4:5), the man-made Trinitarian creeds of later centuries declared a curse on those who did not agree with their error.
> 
> http://www.trumpetcallbooks.com/Jesus_SonofGod.html
> 
> He goes on to say the Jesus has a God.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Yes I will. I agree with a lot of the same beliefs.



Understood.  Kind of difficult to move forward with any meaningful discussion given that knowledge.



Ronnie, you still want to stand by this statement?



> I believe if you sat down to chat with Artfuldodger concerning God and Jesus you'd find he agrees with you, but he discribes it in a different way.


----------



## Artfuldodger

When I get two Heaven I will see two Divine beings. God the Father and sitting next to him, Jesus his Son. I do admit there is a mystery but I don't have a problem with it. I know who God is and that is no mystery. God wouldn't have made himself a mystery to his creation.


----------



## Huntinfool

Tell me this....who is Yahweh?


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> When I get two Heaven I will see two Divine beings. God the Father and sitting next to him, Jesus his Son.



Where's the Holy Spirit?  On vacation?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> Where's the Holy Spirit?  On vacation?



There will only be two thrones in Heaven.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> Tell me this....who is Yahweh?



I'm not sure about the name Yahweh. I thought it referred God or Jehovah. I usually refer to God as God and Jesus as Jesus, Lord, or Christ. It's more of what you have in your heart than semantics. I will say that I pray to God in Christ name. I never pray directly to Jesus as Jesus prayed to God also.


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> When I get two Heaven I will see two Divine beings. God the Father and sitting next to him, Jesus his Son. I do admit there is a mystery but I don't have a problem with it. I know who God is and that is no mystery. God wouldn't have made himself a mystery to his creation.



John 5:24

I tell you most solemnly, whoever listens to my words, and believes in the one who sent me, has eternal life; without being brought to judgement he has passed from death to life.


How can we (gentiles) be certain who God is without Jesus?

If I follow from my poverty in understanding it is that what Jesus is saying here is if you understand ( he was talking to jews) the God of your fathers you must know that, my words, my life, my acts are His. Now knowing that these are His...and knowing that He foretold of me... Who am I?

The above passage has a statement we should all consider before we declare what we can garner from scripture and it is the last bit..."he has passed from death to life." This new life is the eye opener....to the trinity in my view.

This is not a doctrine, it needs be spiritually discerned. Now the way to spiritual discernment is through Jesus and the Holy Spirit... Both  permit us to reverse a worldly reel and cast in a spiritually discerned pool of life, past, present and future...and catch  both real and spiritual fish.

 John 4;24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

 With all due respect my dear brother, if Jesus is not God's, of God's spirit and His spirit continued and continuing...then I must ask if a believer knows God, if God indeed does not still remain for him a mystery and if he has passed from death to life--but rather remaining in judgement.


----------



## centerpin fan

Artfuldodger said:


> There will only be two thrones in Heaven.



So, is the Holy Spirit God?


----------



## Artfuldodger

centerpin fan said:


> So, is the Holy Spirit God?



Yes, it is just a way of saying the Spirit of God is in you. God can be in you but that doesn't make you a God. God is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit or God was in Jesus but that didn't make him God. God can put his spirit in anything he wants but it doesn't make it a God.
What about the powers of Satan? Does that make him a God or have diety? I don't think so. If I heal someone who is sick or perform any other miracle, It is God (Holy Spirit) in me doing the actual miracle or healing. Jesus said his disciples could perform miracles just as he could by using the power of God the Father. That didn't mean the disciples were Gods even though Jesus wanted them to be like him. He wants us to be like him too. We will never be Gods.


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes, it is just a way of saying the Spirit of God is in you. God can be in you but that doesn't make you a God. God is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit or God was in Jesus but that didn't make him God. God can put his spirit in anything he wants but it doesn't make it a God.
> What about the powers of Satan? Does that make him a God or have diety? I don't think so. If I heal someone who is sick or perform any other miracle, It is God (Holy Spirit) in me doing the actual miracle or healing. Jesus said his disciples could perform miracles just as he could by using the power of God the Father. That didn't mean the disciples were Gods even though Jesus wanted them to be like him. He wants us to be like him too. We will never be Gods.




.....so you are not a trinitarian?  Two deities, Jesus and God?  Or one deity?


----------



## Artfuldodger

This debate has turned into whether you believe Jesus has to be God incarnated and a part of the Trinity or Oneness where you can't seperate God into three co-equal parts, to be a Christian or believing in neither the Trinity or Oneness. This debate is about whether you have to believe in the Trinity for Salvation.
I know plenty of Apostolic Pentecostals who would disagree with you and me but I would not second guess their salvation.
So what do some of you think on how the belief of the Trinity, Dualism, or Oneness has on your salvation? 
Do we need to amend John 3:16 to say that God sent himself to save us or that Jesus is God or is is good enough the way it is?


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> So what do some of you think on how the belief of the Trinity, Dualism, or Oneness has on your salvation?
> Do we need to amend John 3:16 to say that God sent himself to save us or that Jesus is God or is is good enough the way it is?



....now you just opened the door for the Calvinists 

Personally, I don't think it really matters how you view uit, as long as you believe it's there (DBR).


----------



## centerpin fan

In the OP, you said:



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't even believe Jesus is God.



... so I'm assuming this:



Artfuldodger said:


> Yes, it is just a way of saying the Spirit of God is in you. God can be in you but that doesn't make you a God. God is in Heaven. The Holy Spirit or God was in Jesus but that didn't make him God. God can put his spirit in anything he wants but it doesn't make it a God.
> What about the powers of Satan? Does that make him a God or have diety? I don't think so. If I heal someone who is sick or perform any other miracle, It is God (Holy Spirit) in me doing the actual miracle or healing. Jesus said his disciples could perform miracles just as he could by using the power of God the Father. That didn't mean the disciples were Gods even though Jesus wanted them to be like him. He wants us to be like him too. We will never be Gods.



... means you also don't believe the Holy Spirit is God.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> .....so you are not a trinitarian?  Two deities, Jesus and God?  Or one deity?



The Holy Spirit is The power of God. So I can knock Trinitarian out pretty quickly. Now we're down to two and it gets trickier. I guess that is called Dualism. I believe in one God and Jesus Christ his son. I don't call him God but his father is God. That would mean he has inherited diety from his father. That would make Jesus divine just as Catholics believe Mary is divine. I don't believe Mary is divine but you can see the reasoning. 
The Father is greater than Jesus. Jesus said so. The Trinity says Jesus is equal to God. How can something be equal to itself? Jesus said he didn't know when he will return. If he was God he would have known that. God awoke Jesus from the grave. If Jesus was God he would have awaken himself.


----------



## centerpin fan

Some threads just sap my strength.  This is one of them.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> ....now you just opened the door for the Calvinists
> 
> Personally, I don't think it really matters how you view uit, as long as you believe it's there (DBR).



Uh oh, not the Calvinist.  I do believe in the DBR of Jesus my Saviour sent from God in Heaven. Jesus' father was God not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit visiting Mary is another way of showing the power of God. Jesus' father isn't The Holy Spirit.


----------



## JB0704

Artfuldodger said:


> The Father is greater than Jesus. Jesus said so. The Trinity says Jesus is equal to God. How can something be equal to itself? Jesus said he didn't know when he will return. If he was God he would have known that. God awoke Jesus from the grave. If Jesus was God he would have awaken himself.



Ok, to the "Jesus is God" folks (again, I am not taking sides, just learning).....what is the Biblical argument against the statement in red?


----------



## Artfuldodger

Seems like I remember when we discussed the various Judgements that God will judge some and Jesus will judge some. Interesting on how the Trinity believers reconcile this if it is going to happen that way.


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Ok, to the "Jesus is God" folks (again, I am not taking sides, just learning).....what is the Biblical argument against the statement in red?



"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1: 1-3)


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1: 1-3)



Does Jesus say the father is greater than him?


----------



## gemcgrew

JB0704 said:


> Does Jesus say the father is greater than him?



Sometimes he speaks of himself as a man and sometimes he speaks of himself as God, in order to show that he is fully both.


----------



## Huntinfool

> The Holy Spirit is The power of God. So I can knock Trinitarian out pretty quickly. Now we're down to two and it gets trickier.



I'm sorry...that is in direct contradiction to scripture.  The HS is not just "power".  He holds personhood.  

(taken from notes from a series by Dr. Chris Bounds of Wesley Seminary)
• The Holy Spirit Speaks: Mark 13:11; Acts 8:29; 10:19-21; 13:2; 21:11; I Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:7
• The Holy Spirit is Called a “He;” John 15:26; 16:7, 8-11
• The Holy Spirit is Lied to: Acts 5:3-9
• The Holy Spirit Convicts: John 16:8-11
• The Holy Spirit Can Be Resisted: Acts 7:51
• The Holy Spirit Appoints Leaders: Acts 20:28
• The Holy Spirit Leads the Church: Acts 15:28; Rom. 8:14
• The Holy Spirit Helps with Weaknesses: Romans 8:26
• The Holy Spirit Prays on Our Behalf: Romans 8:26
• The Holy Spirit Reveals the Things of God to the Church: I Cor. 2:10-11
• The Holy Spirit Can Grieve: Ephesians 4:30; I Thess. 5:19
• The Holy Spirit Gives Gifts as He Wills I Cor. 12:11-12

The HS is specifically shown to have "personhood" or an individualism.  He intercedes.  He prays for us.  He is called "He".

If he is just an extension of the Father (i.e. "power"), he could not pray or intercede.  Power cannot pray.  Power cannot lead or appoint or convict or be lied to.

He is not just the power of God.  He is an individual seperate from the Father, part of the God-head.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> Understood.  Kind of difficult to move forward with any meaningful discussion given that knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Ronnie, you still want to stand by this statement?[/QUOTE]
> 
> Yes!
> I suspect Arts beliefs come very close to yours.
> It's just that neither of you quiet realize it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Joel Hemphill video:


----------



## Huntinfool

> Ok, to the "Jesus is God" folks (again, I am not taking sides, just learning).....what is the Biblical argument against the statement in red?
> 
> The Father is greater than Jesus. Jesus said so. The Trinity says Jesus is equal to God.



He was made to be a little lower than the angels...for a little while.

_But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
(Hebrews 2:9 ESV)_

Because he emptied himself and took the form of a man to become a servant...because he humbled himself and made himself lower for a little while.

_but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

(Philippians 2:7-8 ESV)_

He was not denying his God-ness.  He was asserting that, while he took the form of man, he was in a lower position than the Father.  But they still shared the same nature regardless of his form.

As a man, he humbled himself and subjected himself to the laws given men so that he could redeem men from the burden of the law for righteousness.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I suspect Arts beliefs come very close to yours.
> It's just that neither of you quiet realize it.



I think you need to get your "suspect-o-scope" looked at.  It's malfunctioning again on you.


Do you suspect that JH's beliefs are also very close to mine?  Mormons?  If so, then our definitions of "close" are "far" apart.


----------



## JB0704

gemcgrew said:


> Sometimes he speaks of himself as a man and sometimes he speaks of himself as God, in order to show that he is fully both.



And I believe that.  But, does that mean they are the same individual, or different parts of the "team?"


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> Huntinfool said:
> 
> 
> 
> Understood.  Kind of difficult to move forward with any meaningful discussion given that knowledge.
> 
> 
> 
> Ronnie, you still want to stand by this statement?[/QUOTE]
> 
> Yes!
> I suspect Arts beliefs come very close to yours.
> It's just that neither of you quiet realize it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You might be right.
> The key might be the Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost as we once called it.
> 
> I would like some views on which of the three of the Godhead have a spirit or Soul. Does the Holy Spirit have a spirit? Does Jesus have a Spirit/Soul. He has a dual nature does he have two? Is his Spirit that went somewhere to preach when he died the Holy Spirit or his own soul. I know Jesus talked about his soul was why I was asking. This is educational as i try to figure out the confusing parts. If you don't think it is confusing then amen to you for bearing with the ones who don't. Even without believing in the Trinity it still gets confusing. God is no mystery but some of it does get confusing.
Click to expand...


----------



## Artfuldodger

Huntinfool said:


> I'm sorry...that is in direct contradiction to scripture.  The HS is not just "power".  He holds personhood.
> 
> (taken from notes from a series by Dr. Chris Bounds of Wesley Seminary)
> • The Holy Spirit Speaks: Mark 13:11; Acts 8:29; 10:19-21; 13:2; 21:11; I Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:7
> • The Holy Spirit is Called a “He;” John 15:26; 16:7, 8-11
> • The Holy Spirit is Lied to: Acts 5:3-9
> • The Holy Spirit Convicts: John 16:8-11
> • The Holy Spirit Can Be Resisted: Acts 7:51
> • The Holy Spirit Appoints Leaders: Acts 20:28
> • The Holy Spirit Leads the Church: Acts 15:28; Rom. 8:14
> • The Holy Spirit Helps with Weaknesses: Romans 8:26
> • The Holy Spirit Prays on Our Behalf: Romans 8:26
> • The Holy Spirit Reveals the Things of God to the Church: I Cor. 2:10-11
> • The Holy Spirit Can Grieve: Ephesians 4:30; I Thess. 5:19
> • The Holy Spirit Gives Gifts as He Wills I Cor. 12:11-12
> 
> The HS is specifically shown to have "personhood" or an individualism.  He intercedes.  He prays for us.  He is called "He".
> 
> If he is just an extension of the Father (i.e. "power"), he could not pray or intercede.  Power cannot pray.  Power cannot lead or appoint or convict or be lied to.
> 
> He is not just the power of God.  He is an individual seperate from the Father, part of the God-head.



So why did God send the Holy Spirit to Mary instead of coming himself? Does God come to Earth to help, intervene etc. or does he just sent the Holy Spirit?


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> Jesus was with God from the beginning. God said "let us make man in our image". He was talking to Jesus not angels.
> John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify you me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world was.
> 
> John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom you have given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which you have given me: for you loved me before the foundation of the world.





gemcgrew said:


> "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." (John 1: 1-3)



The above verses deserve to be looked at very closely and discussed by someone other than Artfuldodger.

Give him your perspective.

Explain yourselves to him.

*From the above verses it is clear that the Word was from the beginning, but the Word only received it's glory from it's father.
Jesus' glory was given Him by the Father.  The glory was not of His own.

I think some of you are set on convincing someone to believe exactly as you do, yet you probably cannot fully explain scripturally what you believe.

Jesus is God, yet Jesus is separate from God.
Jesus is God, yet Jesus is "of" God.

Explain it.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Sometimes he speaks of himself as a man and sometimes he speaks of himself as God, in order to show that he is fully both.



Dou you believe in Oneness? Was the man Jesus praying to the God Jesus? I believe he was praying to God in Heaven. I believe he depended on God in Heaven to do God's will on Earth.


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> I'm sorry...that is in direct contradiction to scripture.  The HS is not just "power".  He holds personhood.
> 
> (taken from notes from a series by Dr. Chris Bounds of Wesley Seminary)
> • The Holy Spirit Speaks: Mark 13:11; Acts 8:29; 10:19-21; 13:2; 21:11; I Tim. 4:1; Rev. 2:7
> • The Holy Spirit is Called a “He;” John 15:26; 16:7, 8-11
> • The Holy Spirit is Lied to: Acts 5:3-9
> • The Holy Spirit Convicts: John 16:8-11
> • The Holy Spirit Can Be Resisted: Acts 7:51
> • The Holy Spirit Appoints Leaders: Acts 20:28
> • The Holy Spirit Leads the Church: Acts 15:28; Rom. 8:14
> • The Holy Spirit Helps with Weaknesses: Romans 8:26
> • The Holy Spirit Prays on Our Behalf: Romans 8:26
> • The Holy Spirit Reveals the Things of God to the Church: I Cor. 2:10-11
> • The Holy Spirit Can Grieve: Ephesians 4:30; I Thess. 5:19
> • The Holy Spirit Gives Gifts as He Wills I Cor. 12:11-12
> 
> The HS is specifically shown to have "personhood" or an individualism.  He intercedes.  He prays for us.  He is called "He".
> 
> If he is just an extension of the Father (i.e. "power"), he could not pray or intercede.  Power cannot pray.  Power cannot lead or appoint or convict or be lied to.
> 
> He is not just the power of God.  He is an individual seperate from the Father, part of the God-head.



Does the Holy Spirit have teeth and a mouth(physically).


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> The above verses deserve to be looked at very closely and discussed by someone other than Artfuldodger.
> 
> Give him your perspective.
> 
> Explain yourselves to him.
> 
> *From the above verses it is clear that the Word was from the beginning, but the Word only received it's glory from it's father.
> Jesus' glory was given Him by the Father.  The glory was not of His own.
> 
> I think some of you are set on convincing someone to believe exactly as you do, yet you probably cannot fully explain scripturally what you believe.
> 
> Jesus is God, yet Jesus is separate from God.
> Jesus is God, yet Jesus is "of" God.
> 
> Explain it.



Yes I would like to hear from ya'll. I believe the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. I do have trouble understanding John 1 naturally as a non trinitarian. I haven't always been one I grew up in a Baptist Church. My dad repeated John 1 many times and I was confused then. Jesus was with God from the creation of the world. Did Jesus create the world with the power of God or did God create the world without Jesus? Did Jesus have a body at this time? Does Jesus have a body now? Was God and Jesus seperate beings at this time?
I would still like to here ya'll perspective on Jesus' soul also.
Maybe by helping me you will learn something in the process. Please don't follow me down a wrong path and I won't follow you but we can  venture together and study together.


----------



## Huntinfool

Ronnie T said:


> Does the Holy Spirit have teeth and a mouth(physically).



No. 

I have absolutely GOT to know where you want to go with that!  What's the follow-up?  "Then he's not a person?" Or are we about to debate the dental hygiene of a spirit?



Ronnie I think we need to get this out there. I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Do you?


----------



## thedeacon

gtparts said:


> The highlighted area above seems to be contradictory. Crucifixion is a most violent and cruel form of execution, but it is entirely physical. Suffering the wrath of God is not always a physical experience. To be rejected by God, however briefly, would be the epitome of punishment, at least to me.
> 
> Our God is the pinnacle of righteousness and justice. Would it be reasonable to adopt the position that God allowed the sinless to suffer? Is that just? How can we reconcile, then, the suffering of Christ to the point of crying out,  _"Eli Eli lama sabachthani?" _with Christ being sinless?
> 
> When He took our sin upon Himself and took the just punishment for our sin, is that not exactly what God exacted as appropriate punishment for the "sins of the world"? If we didn't receive the punishment due us, who did? God's very nature demands payment for our rebellion against Him. Jesus is our _hilasmos_, our propitiation,  who completely satisfied the just demands of our Holy Father for judgment on sin, by his death on the Calvary. For God to look on us as righteous (having the proper relationship with Him), Christ gave us His righteousness and took, upon Himself, our unrighteousness. It simply does not work any other way.



I agree to everything you say, you can look at his suffering as punishment in an earthly way and of course Jesus was human.

Lets just ask, did God condemn his son? Did God look at what Jesus went through as punishment to his son or was Jesus a go between that stands between our sins and The Father. I understand what you are saying and I agree. 

Jesus freely accepted his role and the son of God. IMO the Terrible death he suffered for us did not hurt him nearly as much as our daily rejection of him.

I think we feel the same way but use differant words to express it.


----------



## Ronnie T

Jesus died as a lamb on the altar.
Jesus took the place of the innocent lamb.
(Except in a much more profound and pure manner).


----------



## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> No.
> 
> I have absolutely GOT to know where you want to go with that!  What's the follow-up?  "Then he's not a person?" Or are we about to debate the dental hygiene of a spirit?
> 
> 
> 
> Ronnie I think we need to get this out there. I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Do you?



No time, but I'll be back tonight.


----------



## Artfuldodger

thedeacon said:


> I agree to everything you say, you can look at his suffering as punishment in an earthly way and of course Jesus was human.
> 
> Lets just ask, did God condemn his son? Did God look at what Jesus went through as punishment to his son or was Jesus a go between that stands between our sins and The Father. I understand what you are saying and I agree.
> 
> Jesus freely accepted his role and the son of God. IMO the Terrible death he suffered for us did not hurt him nearly as much as our daily rejection of him.
> 
> I think we feel the same way but use differant words to express it.



The only reason I even added in the OP as a second thought, about Jesus not being God, was Punishment. I could punish myself easier than I could my daughter. Especially if she was innocent. I had been reading about Jesus taking our punishment for sins.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> If you'll check back at all the comments I've made on this subject since last night you'll see that I've never asserted that Jesus was not God.
> 
> I've never said that I don't believe Jesus is God.
> I've never preached or taught that Jesus is not God.
> 
> But for us who are now living spiritual lives in physical bodies, Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.
> And all believers must make the confession of Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God.
> 
> As you said earlier, one day the exact nature of our heavenly father, and our savior, and how God worked in our lifes through His Spirit will be made clearer to us than it is today.  We'll realize things that we had not know before.
> 
> Don't be dismayed that I would have a point of view that's different from your.  I come from a different perspective.  Because of my servanthood to God, I am very deliberate to make sure I teach as the apostles taught.  I acknowledge all scripture and all teachings.
> 
> No one will ever have to confess Jesus as God for my benefit.
> 
> 1Cor 4:1  Let a man regard us in this manner, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 In this case, moreover, it is required of stewards that one be found trustworthy. 3 But to me it is a very small thing that I may be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself. 4 For I am conscious of nothing against myself, yet I am not by this acquitted; but the one who examines me is the Lord........
> 
> ....10 We are fools for Christ’s sake, but you are prudent in Christ; we are weak, but you are strong; you are distinguished, but we are without honor."
> 
> I find no comfort or discomfort in whether someone agrees or disagrees with me.  I'm only comforted in the hope that when all is said and done that I have held true to God's will.



I think Ronnie made it clear that he believes in the Trinity and that Jesus is God but i'll wait until tonight to hear his response. His difference from yours is I don't have to believe in the Trinity in the same way as you or him. I believe in the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost just not as you or Ronnie believe. I can believe some of the things Catholics or Calvinest believe too without being one.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Artfuldodger said:


> Seems like I remember when we discussed the various Judgements that God will judge some and Jesus will judge some. Interesting on how the Trinity believers reconcile this if it is going to happen that way.



John 5: 22
The Father judges no one, but has given all authority to judge to the Son,

Ok I found my answer to that. I had thought God judged unbelievers and Jesus judged Christians deeds/works.

Interesting that God gave Jesus the authority  to create man in the begining and to judge him in the end . God loved Jesus and gave him lots of power.


----------



## gordon 2

centerpin fan said:


> Some threads just sap my strength.  This is one of them.



Just imagine that there is beer and pizza at the end of the tread. Even if it is not true...


Remember the folk who were blind and were feeling around a giant...groping a bit here, a bit there.... and creating universes...from the bits....

I'm a bit of a crank... so instead of defining God, I learned first what His will was/is and from this the definitions of who's who came into their own. From the perspective of God's will the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one.

Folk sometimes try to add liquid glue to a powdered thickner, but really the univeral, age old receipe calls for adding powdered thickner to the glue. Otherwise you'll be stirring forever. 

So many questions, so little time.


----------



## rjcruiser

boy...y'all have been busy today.  Been on the road all day and just trying to catch back up...but Centerpin...I'm with ya, this one zaps my strength too.

I still don't think anyone has addressed the scripture in John 8.



Ronnie...as far as salvation weighing in the balance as far as Jesus being God.

I look at it like this...one can be saved and not know the Doctrine of the Trinity.  But, I don't believe one who rejects the Doctrine of the Trinity, or the fact that Jesus is God can be truly saved.

To believe in a Dualism like Artful describes also goes against the OT as well.  What every Jew recites daily...the Shema tells us that there is only one God.


----------



## hobbs27

Just throwing someone a bone here, or not.I came across this just a few moments ago, it is what it is.
Thomas Watson 1620 1688 quotes.


"If there be one God subsisting in three persons, then let us give equal reverence to all the persons in the Trinity. There is not more or less in the Trinity; the Father is not more God than the Son and Holy Ghost. There is an order in the Godhead, but no degrees; one person has not a majority or super eminence above another, therefore we must give equal worship to all the persons.


 "The devil would have Christ prove Himself to be God, by turning stones into bread; but the Holy Ghost shows His Godhead by turning stones into flesh (Eze. 36:26).

 They that deny Christ to be God, must greatly wrest, or else deny the Scripture to be the Word of God.


----------



## mtnwoman

Huntinfool said:


> Ronnie I think we need to get this out there. I believe in the doctrine of the Trinity. Do you?



You didn't ask me, but yes, I do.


----------



## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> The above verses deserve to be looked at very closely and discussed by someone other than Artfuldodger.
> 
> Give him your perspective.
> 
> Explain yourselves to him.



Why? He has dismissed so much of Holy Scripture, I don't have a clue what he would have me work with. I am not particularly fond of following links around the internet. Like I have said before, there are folks out there that would have us eating poop and drinking urine, based on a verse in Isaiah.


----------



## Artfuldodger

So John 3:16 stands on it's own? What about my "Blessed Assurance" with no works? Would the Trinity belief be considered a work after my Confession of Faith? So there are stipulations to John 3:16 just not works? When I became a Christian I was a Baptist. Does my "Once saved always saved" still take affect?


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So John 3:16 stands on it's own? What about my "Blessed Assurance" with no works? Would the Trinity belief be considered a work after my Confession of Faith? So there are stipulations to John 3:16 just not works? When I became a Christian I was a Baptist. Does my "Once saved always saved" still take affect?



I am referring to these comments:


Artfuldodger said:


> Trinitarian scholars now admit this verse was not written by the hand of John. Having access to collections of hundreds of manuscripts, modern scholars are able to determine this verse was introduced into the Bible long after John wrote this letter. However, there are still Trinitarians, especially KJV Onlyists, who are unwilling to accept the facts on this matter and claim this verse is authentic.





Artfuldodger said:


> I don't believe the Bible is without error as it was written by man. There are just too many variations of manuscripts, versions, etc.
> 
> Question: "Should Mark 16:9-20 be in the Bible?"
> 
> Answer: Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because they were copied from the original autographs (i.e., they are copies of the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I am referring to these comments:


 
So now you are saying that believing Jesus the Son of God, died for our sins isn't enough. That there are stipulations like believing the Bible has no errors? Are there other stipulations that a Christian must believe baptism, works, communion. What about a belief in grammatical errors in the Bible? Would that keep me out of Heaven. What about believing in soul sleep. I believe in soul sleep too.


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## Artfuldodger

John 1:18
No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. 
                                                                                                           Colossians 1:15-17 
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 

How could Jesus be made in the image of God if he was God? How could he have the fullness of God in him if he was God? How could he pray to God if he was God?

 John 5:19 
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. 

Why is it that Jesus can only do what his Father gives him the power to do?


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## 1gr8bldr

I see to much emphasis put in wrong places all the time. My mom says all the time "what about the blood". Yes the blood of Jesus is important. Died for our sins, yes important. But here is the key. In the original biblical days, the firstborn son was offered to God for the remainder of the family. The second and third son need not be brought before God. The entire family was covered. Jesus being the firstborn Son of God, was the attoning sacrifice for the remainder of the family. He is the firstborn among many brothers. This is the basis of our faith. So you might not quite say that it was for my sins, more like that I am covered by what he did


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> John 1:18
> No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.
> Colossians 1:15-17
> He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
> 
> How could Jesus be made in the image of God if he was God? How could he have the fullness of God in him if he was God? How could he pray to God if he was God?
> 
> John 5:19
> So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
> 
> Why is it that Jesus can only do what his Father gives him the power to do?


Adam was made in God's image but failed to represent that image. Jesus did so. He was credited with being the exact representation of his being, the image of the invisiable God. God was so pleased with him that he let all his fullness rest on him.


----------



## Artfuldodger

Artfuldodger said:


> Yes I would like to hear from ya'll. I believe the fullness of God dwells in Jesus. I do have trouble understanding John 1 naturally as a non trinitarian. I haven't always been one I grew up in a Baptist Church. My dad repeated John 1 many times and I was confused then. Jesus was with God from the creation of the world. Did Jesus create the world with the power of God or did God create the world without Jesus? Did Jesus have a body at this time? Does Jesus have a body now? Was God and Jesus seperate beings at this time?
> I would still like to here ya'll perspective on Jesus' soul also.
> Maybe by helping me you will learn something in the process. Please don't follow me down a wrong path and I won't follow you but we can  venture together and study together.



To ya'll who can discuss these topics with a non trinity believer I would like to get your prospective on things. I think i've been condemned enough. 
I feel like you can believe in the Trinity and still get to Heaven.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> So now you are saying that believing Jesus the Son of God, died for our sins isn't enough.


Art, I believed and acknowledged the historical fact that "Jesus the Son of God, died for our sins" and yes, it wasn't enough. 


Artfuldodger said:


> That there are stipulations like believing the Bible has no errors?


How do you know "Jesus the Son of God, died for our sins" if the Bible is errant? 


Artfuldodger said:


> Are there other stipulations that a Christian must believe baptism, works, communion. What about a belief in grammatical errors in the Bible? Would that keep me out of Heaven.


No, and I am not debating your eternal condition. I am questioning your basic Bible understanding.


Artfuldodger said:


> What about believing in soul sleep. I believe in soul sleep too.


Why wouldn't you? I do not care to debate it with you. There is so much more basic understanding that is missing here. I encourage you to keep studying. I do not encourage you to surf the web for clarity.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> I think i've been condemned enough.


Do not mistake suspicion, bewilderment or frustration for condemnation.


----------



## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> Do not mistake suspicion, bewilderment or frustration for condemnation.



My apologies, I feel the Bible has some errors but not the whole Bible. I feel some books were left out. I get my education from the Bible, this forum and others, Christian fellowship, elders, preachers, strangers, animals and trees.
I call it input. But it's up to me to wade threw the hogwash and pick what's Biblical. 
What about answering some of my basic questions or giving me your perspective without saying you can't because I believe the Bible has errors? Did Jesus have a human soul?


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## Ronnie T

The Bible teaches that the one God exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

It isn't so much that Jesus is God, because all three together are God.
The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit work together.  
In the three is found God.

Yet each is distinct and separate in order that the fullness of God might manifest Himself upon whatever He wishes.

Personally, I think the phrase "Jesus is God" is shortsighted, unfocused, and incomplete.

Doctrine of the trinity??????  I'll let yall work yourselves into it.


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## Artfuldodger

Ronnie T said:


> The Bible teaches that the one God exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> It isn't so much that Jesus is God, because all three together are God.
> The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit work together.
> In the three is found God.
> 
> Yet each is distinct and separate in order that the fullness of God might manifest Himself upon whatever He wishes.
> 
> Personally, I think the phrase "Jesus is God" is shortsighted, unfocused, and incomplete.
> 
> Doctrine of the trinity??????  I'll let yall work yourselves into it.



And again you don't let people put words in your mouth you didn't say. I admire you for that.


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## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> What about answering some of my basic questions or giving me your perspective without saying you can't because I believe the Bible has errors?


I do not recall saying "I can't" but rather "why?".


Artfuldodger said:


> Did Jesus have a human soul?


Isaiah 53 was my first thought in regards to this question.


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## gemcgrew

Ronnie T said:


> Personally, I think the phrase "Jesus is God" is shortsighted, unfocused, and incomplete.


Any more so than "Jesus saves"?


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## Artfuldodger

gemcgrew said:


> I do not recall saying "I can't" but rather "why?".
> 
> Isaiah 53 was my first thought in regards to this question.



Thanks for responding. I know there are verses where Jesus said his soul was suffering but you didn't answer my question. Let me ask a different way. We know from Bible verses that Jesus had a soul. Was this soul/his soul different from God? Was it the Holy Ghost? Was the Comforter the Ghost/Soul of Jesus?  When Jesus died his soul went somewhere to preach. Was this soul different from God or the Holy Spirit? These aren't hard questions nor are they hard to answer. Ronnie suggested members help me by giving their perspective. I'm glad that at least you are trying. I'm not trying to convert or lead anyone astray.  I'm easily persuaded. Guide me. Change my mind. Show me Bibilical proof. I'm tired of following a certain norm of beliefs because my Father(Baptist), and his Grandfather(Holy Roller)(that was from his obit) believed in certain things. In other words: I've reached a point in my life to read the Bible and form my own beliefs. It is hard to discard my Baptist/Holly Roller ancestor's beliefs but they aren't all mine. And I don't have a beef with the Baptist Church. I still go to Baptist Churches and enjoy their fellowship.

Ronnie suggested for ya'll to show me your perspective on the trinity/oneness/dualism discussion and to answer some of my basic questions. I was met with defiance and not quoting but "man you are so off base you are beyond help" Maybe I am and if you don't feel comfortable discussing the topic please don't. If it Zaps your energy, go elswhere. But if you want to add or take away from the discussion I am so ready. 
Why did God turn over the creation and Judgement to Jesus?


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## Artfuldodger

This is from Centerpin from an old post and I agree with the Creed. Now he might have a different interpretation from me or you but in as many ways as we are different we are alike.

I prefer to say Jesus is Divine. If you say "Jesus is God", people often take it to mean that the Father and the Son are the same Person. Anyway, here's what I believe:


We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father,
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.


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## Artfuldodger

I think Jesus is God's only begotten son born of a true virgin. I believe that God is his real father, not the Holy Spirit. I believe that Mary is Jesus' mother and isn't divine at all. I believe that Jesus has been with God from the beginning of time. I believe Jesus ascended into Heaven in a glorified body of flesh & bones, same as we'll do. I believe Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God as we speak. I believe if you have seen Jesus you have seen the Father meaning that's how close they are in their nature. I believe the Holy Spirit is just God's spirit and not a different entity. I believe Jesus is a separate divine being from his Father. I believe Jesus prayed to his Father in Heaven and needed his Father as we needed our earthy father. I believe Jesus' Father resurrected his Son from the tomb. I believe everything Jesus did on earth he did with the power of his Father. I believe the Father is greater than Jesus. I believe only the Father knows when Jesus will return. I believe Jesus died on a cross for my sins. I believe Jesus is the only way to the Father. I believe Jesus is the mediator between me and God.
I grew up believing in the Trinity. I changed my beliefs about five years ago. These beliefs were formed between me and God. These beliefs were formed from reading the Bible with no input from creeds, denominations, or elders. These beliefs are between God & me. They are only my beliefs formed by me reading the Bible. Your beliefs may be different. I wouldn't want you to trust your salvation on my beliefs please form your own. I think we should learn to be more tolerant of each others beliefs especially in the Christian faith.
I would like to add that my beliefs are constantly changing as I read the Bible.


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## Artfuldodger

This was from Ronnie if anyone is doubting his belief in the Trinity:

"God in Three Persons

God Being Three Persons, Yet One God Is Due to His Unified Nature

God is One, yet composed of three persons: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. All three persons are referred to as God in the Scriptures because each one is God by nature or the divine essence (John 6:27; Colossians 2:8-9; Acts 5:3-4). God would not be God to exclude any one of the three persons that make up the divine nature. For example, Jesus, even while on earth, was God in the flesh or the “I AM” (John 8:24, 58). Yet, Jesus always was accompanied by both the Father and the Holy Spirit (e.g., John 10:37-38; Luke 4:1).

Equality Among All Three Persons

Jesus, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit are just as much God as the Father is! “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30). Jesus “thought it not robbery to be equal with God” (Philippians 2:6). The equality of the Father and Son is seen in the salutations of most New Testament epistles (e.g., Romans 1:7; Galatians 1:3; II John 3).Each person of the triune God is emphasized equally in prayer in II Corinthians 13:14.

Equal, Yet of Different Rank by the Divine Order

Jesus submitted to the Father’s will and obeyed His commands (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; 8:29; 14:31). How then could they be equal? Both are equally God, yet according to the divine order, each has a different rank or position in the hierarchy of God (See I Corinthians 11:3). Just as man and woman are equal (Galatians 3:28), so are the Father and the Son (John 10:30). The different rank a woman has does not make her any less of a Christian (or human for that matter). Neither does the different rank of Christ make Him any less Deity. The different rank that each person holds simply means that there are different roles and responsibilities that each one fulfills (e.g., Ephesians 5:22-33; Philippians 2:8). All three persons (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) represent Deity, though each person of the Godhead is distinguishable from the other. Each person of God is distinct in the sense that each one has a different role that each one fulfills (e.g., Hebrews 12:9; Ephesians 5:23; John 16:13).

The Unified Work of the Trinity

All three persons of God are one also in the sense of functioning together as a team to accomplish the work of God. The work of Creation: “[God] in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world” (Hebrews 1:2; cf. Genesis 1:2, 26-27). "The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life” (Job 33:4).


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## Artfuldodger

From Formula1
God our Father loved me enough to send His only Son Jesus to die for my sin, for the Father knew that He could not dwell with or in sinful flesh. Jesus' death paid the price for my sin so that God could dwell within me (sinful flesh) through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, God's deposit of eternal life in me, dwells within me and renews me daily, teaching me from the heart of Almighty God all that I need to follow Him and spread the good news of the Gospel, that is, Christ in me my Hope. Through Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I have been restored to right relationship with God. Take away even one part of God in His plan and where would you be? Said another way, if God carries out a plan, is any part of it not God?

Praise Father, Son and Holy Ghost for completing the amazing work of grace, and thinking enough of me to give me a chance to hear it and see it! That's all I can say!


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## Artfuldodger

From Artfuldodger
I wonder why the Trinity belief is followed by more Christians than Oneness. Since we as Christians believe in only one God it would stand to reason not to divide him into three


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## Artfuldodger

from 1gr8bldr
Why did Jesus receive the promised Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33------- John 1;1 does not prove the trinity. Kind of like the "us" in Gen. Could be 1,2, 3, 4, 5. The oneness crowd uses these against the trinity as if it supports their belief


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## Artfuldodger

from Ronnie
And He sits next to God on the throne. Right?

He is our Lord, our Savior, the slain Lamb, our mediator, and God?
How is Jesus able to do that?
How does He mediate between us and God if He is God already?


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## Artfuldodger

from gr8Bldr
Mercy, How far away doctrines have taken people. You got a verse for that? It don't say "unless you confess Jesus is God and believe in your heart that he raised himself..." What does it say? "Unless you believe Jesus is Lord [master] and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". The rest of the context declares that he is the Messiah.
__________________


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## Artfuldodger

From gr8bldr
We reserve the use of "God" for God Almighty. But it has not always been this way. Many were called God in the OT. In the NT, this is verified by "the god of this world has blinded the minds...". God's name is YHWH. This is the name that they did not want to use from fear of using it in unworthy manner. They would not even write it on a piece of paper for fear it might get thrown in the trash. So they often used other words. But they did not reserve the word "God" for only God Almighty. That is our custom, not theirs.


----------



## Ronnie T

Artfuldodger said:


> From Artfuldodger
> I wonder why the Trinity belief is followed by more Christians than Oneness. Since we as Christians believe in only one God it would stand to reason not to divide him into three



God is very dynamic.  Enormous.
God is more than our minds(my mind) will fully comprehend.
With all that we know today, we might possible know even less than we think.

Through the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit all those who believe are being touched by God.

It is our Lord and Savior we are attached to as disciples.  Our physical lives are given to His purpose.

Don't worry so much about satisfying other people's concepts.


----------



## Artfuldodger

from gr8bldr
What you have is an incorrect definition of Lord. God has made him master, not God has made him God. You have not addressed anything I have presented. I have addressed everything you have presented. God did not die for anybody. Have you not seen the verse that says God cannot die? Your belief system claims he raised himself. If so then he was not dead and your still in your sins. I serve a Jesus who died and was raised by his Father. Dead. He was the "firstborn" from the dead. Death no longer has hold on him like it did ole Zack. Why, because "he was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. What was that Spirit, See Acts 2 :33 "He received the promised Holy Spirit..." Now why would God the Son have need of receiving his coequal third person of the trinity that he is part of?


----------



## Artfuldodger

from artfuldodger
I believe Jesus is the Son of God, born of a virgin, and died for our sins. He is the mediator between us and God. There is no other way to get to God without going through Jesus. Jesus doesn't know when he is coming back to earth, God does.
He has to have some diety being the Son of God to die for our sins. No ordinary man could die for our sins. No angel(Michael) could die for our sins.
Do I have it all figured out: NO!
John 14:1-7
“Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going” Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?" Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for responding. I know there are verses where Jesus said his soul was suffering but you didn't answer my question.


Here is where it gets a little frustrating. I did answer the question and you admit there are other verses that answer the question.


Artfuldodger said:


> Let me ask a different way. We know from Bible verses that Jesus had a soul. Was this soul/his soul different from God? Was it the Holy Ghost? Was the Comforter the Ghost/Soul of Jesus?  When Jesus died his soul went somewhere to preach. Was this soul different from God or the Holy Spirit? These aren't hard questions nor are they hard to answer.


But you are not asking it a different way. You are asking 4 different questions.


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## Huntinfool

Ronnie, I think you put your explanation very well.  We still differ on the question of whether Artful's beliefs are anywhere near mine.  But I think your explanation was very well put.  

RJ, I'm 100% with you my friend.  It is possible to be saved and not know or acknowledge the Trinity (or the idea, as Ronnie put it, that Father, Son and Holy Spirit together are God).

But to reject it is something different altogether.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> But to reject it is something different altogether.



What's the difference?


----------



## barryl

*Just a suggestion*



Artfuldodger said:


> My apologies, I feel the Bible has some errors but not the whole Bible. I feel some books were left out. I get my education from the Bible, this forum and others, Christian fellowship, elders, preachers, strangers, animals and trees.
> I call it input. But it's up to me to wade threw the hogwash and pick what's Biblical.
> What about answering some of my basic questions or giving me your perspective without saying you can't because I believe the Bible has errors? Did Jesus have a human soul?


Maybe you need to reconsider who your final authority is.


----------



## Artfuldodger

barryl said:


> Maybe you need to reconsider who your final authority is.



My final authority is the same as what Jesus said "the only true God". My God is the same God of the Old Testament. In the Old Testament the idea of a Trinity was never mentioned. It would be confusing for even John to comprehend the Trinity. In the Old Testament, the Messiah was never mentioned to be co-equal with God.


----------



## gemcgrew

Artfuldodger said:


> In the Old Testament the idea of a Trinity was never mentioned.


Spend some time in Isaiah.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> What's the difference?



One is a lack of sanctification...one is the rejection of what Christ taught and proclaimed to be.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> One is a lack of sanctification...one is the rejection of what Christ taught and proclaimed to be.



So.......not knowing there is a trinity is ok, but not seeing the trinity as a "trinity" is not (we are talking about the "Trinity," not Jesus' specific claims on his nature)?

Let's take AD's description of the Holy Spirit for example.  I believe he claims that is just "God's spirit," and not a seperate entity at all.

In one way that could be rejecting the trinity.  In the other, that could be not knowing it because he sees the Bible differently.


----------



## Artfuldodger

JB0704 said:


> So.......not knowing there is a trinity is ok, but not seeing the trinity as a "trinity" is not (we are talking about the "Trinity," not Jesus' specific claims on his nature)?
> 
> Let's take AD's description of the Holy Spirit for example.  I believe he claims that is just "God's spirit," and not a seperate entity at all.
> 
> In one way that could be rejecting the trinity.  In the other, that could be not knowing it because he sees the Bible differently.



And I asked God to use the Holy Spirit to guide me in my venture. Why would he guide me away from his Gift of salvation? I'm not saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, i'm just explaining or see it differently.


----------



## rjcruiser

JB0704 said:


> So.......not knowing there is a trinity is ok, but not seeing the trinity as a "trinity" is not (we are talking about the "Trinity," not Jesus' specific claims on his nature)?
> 
> Let's take AD's description of the Holy Spirit for example.  I believe he claims that is just "God's spirit," and not a seperate entity at all.
> 
> In one way that could be rejecting the trinity.  In the other, that could be not knowing it because he sees the Bible differently.



I'm really more in the line of Jesus is God (I view that as the main thrust of the Doctrine of the Trinity).  You reject that and you reject who Christ said He was.





Artfuldodger said:


> And I asked God to use the Holy Spirit to guide me in my venture. Why would he guide me away from his Gift of salvation? I'm not saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, i'm just explaining or see it differently.




How do you know it is the Holy Spirit guiding you and not some demonic spirit?


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> I'm really more in the line of Jesus is God (I view that as the main thrust of the Doctrine of the Trinity).



I see where you are going now.  I never really thought of it as a "is Jesus God" position, but more of an organizational perspective.  

...and, for clarity, I am just picking y'alls brinas on this.  Not arguing one or the other.  I beleive Jesus was God.


----------



## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> And I asked God to use the Holy Spirit to guide me in my venture. Why would he guide me away from his Gift of salvation? I'm not saying the Holy Spirit doesn't exist, i'm just explaining or see it differently.



Just ask the Holy Spirit to guide you, He is here with you/us. He intercedes for us, even when we do not know what to ask/pray for.  Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit when He left to help us.

There's a really short book by Billy Graham, called the Holy Spirit. That book is what brought me back to Christ when I was so very lost. Once I understood the Holy Spirit, everything else fell into place for me.  That's a very short part of my testimony about the Holy Spirit. There's more to that story, but basically after that I've lead a very rich spirit filled life, and feel much closer to God.

And by the way, that book was in a place where I worked and it was all I had to read, out of boredom.....so there was a purpose in me even finding and reading that book. God knew what I needed and He provided it to me. No other books there to read either...just that one.  I'm not saying that book would change everyone's life, I'm just saying it was the catalyst provided by God to give me a clue and to bring His lost lamb back to the fold.


----------



## Artfuldodger

rjcruiser said:


> I'm really more in the line of Jesus is God (I view that as the main thrust of the Doctrine of the Trinity).  You reject that and you reject who Christ said He was.
> How do you know it is the Holy Spirit guiding you and not some demonic spirit?


So my views of the Holy Spirit not being a part of the Trinity isn't the "deal breaker"?

I've felt the presence of the Holy Spirit too many times to know.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I'm really more in the line of Jesus is God (I view that as the main thrust of the Doctrine of the Trinity).  You reject that and you reject who Christ said He was.
> 
> So, do you condemn Artfuldodger since he doesn't proclaim the "Doctrine of the Trinity"in the ways you wish to hear it?
> 
> 
> 
> How do you know it is the Holy Spirit guiding you and not some demonic spirit?



And How do you know the Holy Spirit guides you?
When you last sinned, who was guiding you, the Holy Spirit or yourself?


----------



## Artfuldodger

mtnwoman said:


> Just ask the Holy Spirit to guide you, He is here with you/us. He intercedes for us, even when we do not know what to ask/pray for.  Jesus said He would send the Holy Spirit when He left to help us.
> 
> There's a really short book by Billy Graham, called the Holy Spirit. That book is what brought me back to Christ when I was so very lost. Once I understood the Holy Spirit, everything else fell into place for me.  That's a very short part of my testimony about the Holy Spirit. There's more to that story, but basically after that I've lead a very rich spirit filled life, and feel much closer to God.



I can tell from your previous posts and responces that you put a lot of emphasis on the Holy Spirit as you mention him alot. More so than other members. My grandmother was a Holiness and they put more emphasis on the Holy Spirit than Baptist. With others it's always Jesus. But like you said When Jesus left the Earth he gave us the Comforter. I just see God as one God and not divided into three. I would follow the Oneness believers before the Trinity. It's funny but most Trinity believers are willing to accept oneness views more than mine.


----------



## mtnwoman

Ronnie T said:


> And How do you know the Holy Spirit guides you?
> When you last sinned, who was guiding you, the Holy Spirit or yourself?



You didn't ask me, but I wanna add my 2cents.

When I sin I'm working on my own power......still I come under conviction, sometimes before (usually) and sometimes during and after. Being a broken person I do it anyway sometimes. No matter how hard I try, I cannot not sin. By conviction of the HS, though, I know who's guiding. The Holy Spirit leads me in the right direction, I just don't always follow His lead. If I let Him, He will guide me down the right path...always.


----------



## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> I'm really more in the line of Jesus is God (I view that as the main thrust of the Doctrine of the Trinity).  You reject that and you reject who Christ said He was.
> 
> How do you know it is the Holy Spirit guiding you and not some demonic spirit?



I'm gonna say this once and leave it all to you.

As I said last night, 

The Bible teaches that the one God exists as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.  For you to continue to insist on the one statement... "Jesus is God" is to pick up but one peice of glass when the entire vase was broken.

Jesus does not function as God.  Jesus has never functioned as God.  But with the Father and Holy Spirit, Jesus(being the Son of God) has delivered to us all the things of God.

No biblical person ever confessed that Jesus or the Holy Spirit were God.
You, and Art, and myself need to remember that Jesus is the lord of our lives, our Savior.


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## Ronnie T

Names of Jesus in New Testament

Matthew        King of the Jews 
Mark              Son of God & Wonder Worker 
Luke              Son of Man 
John             Word Made Flesh 
Acts              Power on High 
Romans        Salvation & Justifier 
I Corinthians        Gift of the Spirit 
II Corinthians      Victory 
Galatians             Liberator 
Ephesians            Chief Cornerstone 
Philippians          Provider & Supplier 
Colossians           Fullness of God 
I Thessalonians   Soon Coming King 
II Thessalonians      Messiah 
I Timothy            Mediator 
II Timothy          Faithful Witness 
Titus                   Faithful Pastor & Blessed Hope 
Philemon            Friend that is closer than a Brother 
Hebrews             High Priest 
James                 Great Physician 
I Peter                Chief Shepherd 
II Peter               Saviour 
I John                 Righteousness 
II John               Everlasting Love 
III John              Truth 
Jude                   Majesty & Power 
Revelation          King of Kings & Lord of Lords


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## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> So my views of the Holy Spirit not being a part of the Trinity isn't the "deal breaker"?



Nope...didn't say that at all.  Just trying to keep it to one thing here especially in light of the first post you had in this thread (which is what my initial issue was with).



			
				Artfuldodger said:
			
		

> I've felt the presence of the Holy Spirit too many times to know.



Really?  So, it is all based on your feelings?  How can you be sure?



Ronnie T said:


> And How do you know the Holy Spirit guides you?
> When you last sinned, who was guiding you, the Holy Spirit or yourself?



Glad you asked Ronnie.  I know that the Holy Spirit is guiding me when what I do is in line with scripture.  If what I do or say is out of line with scripture, then it isn't the Holy Spirit.



Ronnie T said:


> No biblical person ever confessed that Jesus or the Holy Spirit were God.





Jesus did.  

For the third time.  

John 8:58
Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”



It goes so much further than just Jesus is not God.  If you believe Jesus is not God, you're saying Jesus' own words are false....which then shows him to be imperfect...which then shows him to be sinful...which then cancels the fact that he was the spotless lamb on the cross....which then cancels the fact that His death could cover our sins.

Kills the entire salvation process for the Christian....and is why it is such a huge doctrinal issue.


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## mtnwoman

Artfuldodger said:


> I can tell from your previous posts and responces that you put a lot of emphasis on the Holy Spirit as you mention him alot. More so than other members. My grandmother was a Holiness and they put more emphasis on the Holy Spirit than Baptist. With others it's always Jesus. But like you said When Jesus left the Earth he gave us the Comforter. I just see God as one God and not divided into three. I would follow the Oneness believers before the Trinity. It's funny but most Trinity believers are willing to accept oneness views more than mine.



I understand what you're saying.

I cannot compare myself to God, but just for an example...

I have a soul and a spirit and a physical body. So even though I look like one person, I'm really not. I have 3 parts to me. My soul is me, my personality, my thoughts, my wisdom, my lack of wisdom, etc etc. My spirit is the part of me that belongs to God (or not).  One of my fav scriptures, (i post it all the time)....is the Word of God divides asunder soul and spirit...seperating what we (soul) think, do, etc, and our spirit, the part that connects with God's Holy Spirit. Our soul is how we were raised, and what we believe in the natural,(our personality) and our spirit, the part that we attempt to be like Christ. 
All parts of me merge into one

It's hard for me to find the words to exactly explain that. But I learned that my soul will always be tempted, my connection with God, my spirit, is what keeps my soul under control...with of course the help of the Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger

Jesus, the Man and Mediator
The Jesus presented by the apostles is not “God the Son.”
This title appears nowhere in the Bible. Jesus is the Son of God,
the Messiah, whose origin is to be traced to his miraculous
conception (Luke 1:35). The one God of the Scriptures remains
in the New Testament the one Person revealed in the Old
Testament as the Creator God of Israel. Jesus, “himself man” (1
Tim. 2:5), mediates between the one God, the Father, and
mankind. This Jesus can save “to the uttermost” (Heb. 7:25).
Any other Jesus must be avoided as a deceptive counterfeit—
and it is all too easy to be “taken in” (2 Cor. 11:4).


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## Artfuldodger

The expression “I am” in John 8:58 positively does not mean
“I am God.” It is not, as so often alleged, the divine name of
Exodus 3:14, where Yahweh declared: “I am the self-existent
One” ('ego eimi o ohn'). Jesus nowhere claimed that title. The
proper translation of ego eimi in John 8:58 is “I am he,” i.e., the
promised Christ (cp. the same expression in John 4:26, “I who
speak to you am he [the Christ]”).12 Before Abraham was born
Jesus had been “foreknown” (cp. 1 Pet. 1:20). Jesus here makes
the stupendous claim to absolute significance in God’s purpose.


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## Ronnie T

rjcruiser said:


> Nope...didn't say that at all.  Just trying to keep it to one thing here especially in light of the first post you had in this thread (which is what my initial issue was with).
> 
> 
> 
> Really?  So, it is all based on your feelings?  How can you be sure?
> 
> 
> 
> Glad you asked Ronnie.  I know that the Holy Spirit is guiding me when what I do is in line with scripture.  If what I do or say is out of line with scripture, then it isn't the Holy Spirit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Jesus did.
> 
> For the third time.
> 
> John 8:58
> Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
> Again, as I said, no one ever confess that Jesus was God.  They confessed Jesus as the Son of God.
> 
> 
> It goes so much further than just Jesus is not God.  If you believe Jesus is not God, you're saying Jesus' own words are false....which then shows him to be imperfect...which then shows him to be sinful...which then cancels the fact that he was the spotless lamb on the cross....which then cancels the fact that His death could cover our sins.
> 
> Kills the entire salvation process for the Christian....and is why it is such a huge doctrinal issue.



This isn't about me saying that Jesus is not God.  This is about your continued insistance that someone must confess that Jesus is God.
And believe me, I know all about banging one's head against a wall trying to get someone to say things the way I want them said.  So bang away.

Give a detailed explanation of the following verse to Art.
John 13:3 Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God,


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## gemcgrew

Art, please consider Titus 2:13 
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"


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## 1gr8bldr

Artfuldodger said:


> from gr8bldr
> What you have is an incorrect definition of Lord. God has made him master, not God has made him God. You have not addressed anything I have presented. I have addressed everything you have presented. God did not die for anybody. Have you not seen the verse that says God cannot die? Your belief system claims he raised himself. If so then he was not dead and your still in your sins. I serve a Jesus who died and was raised by his Father. Dead. He was the "firstborn" from the dead. Death no longer has hold on him like it did ole Zack. Why, because "he was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit. What was that Spirit, See Acts 2 :33 "He received the promised Holy Spirit..." Now why would God the Son have need of receiving his coequal third person of the trinity that he is part of?


Hey friend, I think you have mistaken mr for another on your last three post. I agree completly with everything you said in the last 3 post to me. I may be the only one here who does agree. I could add some more to it but your getting pretty good at it so no need for any help from me


----------



## Artfuldodger

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey friend, I think you have mistaken mr for another on your last three post. I agree completly with everything you said in the last 3 post to me. I may be the only one here who does agree. I could add some more to it but your getting pretty good at it so no need for any help from me



Actually I was quoting you from an old post.
Your belief of who is Jesus is a little different from even mine.
I've only been a non-Trinitiarian for two years so I don't have the Biblical knowledge my forumites have. I am envious of their Biblical knowledge.


----------



## Artfuldodger

John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

Before and after (Exodus 3:14) , God clarifies that "I-AM-THE-GOD-OF-ABRAHAM"

God says the phrase "I-AM-GOD-" about 200 times in the Bible while Jesus in his over 30 years on earth never said that .

Furthermore, if we look at a Bible Hebrew Dictionary , we can look up the Phrase "I AM" hayah {haw-yaw} in Hebrew and see that it Means;

"was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee

1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass

1b) to come about, come to pass

2) to come into being, become

2a) to arise, appear, come

2b) to become

2b1) to become

2b3) to be instituted, be established

3) to be

3a) to exist, be in existence

3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)

3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)

3d) to accompany, be with " 

Furthermore , in the Gospel of John , Jesus is recorded to have said "ego eimi" _Not_ "Hayah" Two completely different words in completely different languages , but both translated in to English as "I_am"

Why then did't Jesus also say "Hayah" (I_am) the same way God said "Hayah" ??

There is no exception that Jesus would say "ego eimi" _instead_ of "Hayah" becuase the Gospel does also use some Hebrew words , for example ;

(a) "Hossana" - Matthew 21:9 (b) "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani" - Matthew 27:46

(c) "Rabbi" - John 3:2 (d) "Talitha cumi" - Mark 5:41

Therefore with a *Statement* as grand as "I_am" , Jesus (if he said it) would have said "Hayah" like God said "Hayah"

Instead , Jesus says "ego eimi" which is not what God said .

This proves that Jesus did Not say "I_am" like God said "I AM"

Also , this phrase appears in Jhn, but Not in Luke , Mark , or Matthew .


----------



## gordon 2

Artfuldodger said:


> John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
> 
> Before and after (Exodus 3:14) , God clarifies that "I-AM-THE-GOD-OF-ABRAHAM"
> 
> God says the phrase "I-AM-GOD-" about 200 times in the Bible while Jesus in his over 30 years on earth never said that .
> 
> Furthermore, if we look at a Bible Hebrew Dictionary , we can look up the Phrase "I AM" hayah {haw-yaw} in Hebrew and see that it Means;
> 
> "was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee
> 
> 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
> 
> 1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
> 
> 1b) to come about, come to pass
> 
> 2) to come into being, become
> 
> 2a) to arise, appear, come
> 
> 2b) to become
> 
> 2b1) to become
> 
> 2b3) to be instituted, be established
> 
> 3) to be
> 
> 3a) to exist, be in existence
> 
> 3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
> 
> 3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
> 
> 3d) to accompany, be with "
> 
> Furthermore , in the Gospel of John , Jesus is recorded to have said "ego eimi" _Not_ "Hayah" Two completely different words in completely different languages , but both translated in to English as "I_am"
> 
> Why then did't Jesus also say "Hayah" (I_am) the same way God said "Hayah" ??
> 
> There is no exception that Jesus would say "ego eimi" _instead_ of "Hayah" becuase the Gospel does also use some Hebrew words , for example ;
> 
> (a) "Hossana" - Matthew 21:9 (b) "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani" - Matthew 27:46
> 
> (c) "Rabbi" - John 3:2 (d) "Talitha cumi" - Mark 5:41
> 
> Therefore with a *Statement* as grand as "I_am" , Jesus (if he said it) would have said "Hayah" like God said "Hayah"
> 
> Instead , Jesus says "ego eimi" which is not what God said .
> 
> This proves that Jesus did Not say "I_am" like God said "I AM"
> 
> Also , this phrase appears in Jhn, but Not in Luke , Mark , or Matthew .



Looking for love in all the wrong places....? Your answer is in the heart of Jesus, not in the mind of a scribe.

You are perhaps to be forgiven. You are from a culture that likes to rumage trough scripture for spiritual orientation. 

Jesus thought in parables and said those who have ears will hear.  He did not rake scripture to wake people up to their spiritual reality and the nessecity of Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Perhaps the problem with finding Jesus is not a person of God, is that we forgo firstly knowing God thru him, but differ to God and his Holy Spirit which are too enormous for us gentiles. And that differing to God and the Holy Spirit is often our consceits rumaging the scriptures.

My dear brother I must say....your answer is in the heart of Jesus and not where you are looking, and not in the habit you have in listening.

So backstep...come back to Jesus....and then take up you pilgrimages.... Although your fervor is commendable...and you are an awesome pilgrim...many saints await your return. It is up to you, of course, to choose where to look...


----------



## Artfuldodger

gordon 2 said:


> Looking for love in all the wrong places....? Your answer is in the heart of Jesus, not in the mind of a scribe.
> 
> You are perhaps to be forgiven. You are from a culture that likes to rumage trough scripture for spiritual orientation.
> 
> Jesus thought in parables and said those who have ears will hear.  He did not rake scripture to wake people up to their spiritual reality and the nessecity of Himself, the Father and the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Perhaps the problem with finding Jesus is not a person of God, is that we forgo firstly knowing God thru him, but differ to God and his Holy Spirit which are too enormous for us gentiles. And that differing to God and the Holy Spirit is often our consceits rumaging the scriptures.
> 
> My dear brother I must say....your answer is in the heart of Jesus and not where you are looking, and not in the habit you have in listening.
> 
> So backstep...come back to Jesus....and then take up you pilgrimages.... Although your fervor is commendable...and you are an awesome pilgrim...many saints await your return. It is up to you, of course, to choose where to look...



You have given me the best advice yet. I'm going to put my denominational upbringing behind me, stop the back & forthness on this post(hopefull), looking for answers from preachers, teachers, etc. and just sit down with the Bible and open my heart. I've got enough in my brain to decipher for a few days. I'm not giving up on education & fellowship but I know what you are saying. Thanks


----------



## rjcruiser

Artfuldodger said:


> The expression “I am” in John 8:58 positively does not mean
> “I am God.” It is not, as so often alleged, the divine name of
> Exodus 3:14, where Yahweh declared: “I am the self-existent
> One” ('ego eimi o ohn'). Jesus nowhere claimed that title. The
> proper translation of ego eimi in John 8:58 is “I am he,” i.e., the
> promised Christ (cp. the same expression in John 4:26, “I who
> speak to you am he [the Christ]”).12 Before Abraham was born
> Jesus had been “foreknown” (cp. 1 Pet. 1:20). Jesus here makes
> the stupendous claim to absolute significance in God’s purpose.





Artfuldodger said:


> John 8:58 "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"
> 
> Before and after (Exodus 3:14) , God clarifies that "I-AM-THE-GOD-OF-ABRAHAM"
> 
> God says the phrase "I-AM-GOD-" about 200 times in the Bible while Jesus in his over 30 years on earth never said that .
> 
> Furthermore, if we look at a Bible Hebrew Dictionary , we can look up the Phrase "I AM" hayah {haw-yaw} in Hebrew and see that it Means;
> 
> "was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee
> 
> 1) to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
> 
> 1a) to happen, fall out, occur, take place, come about, come to pass
> 
> 1b) to come about, come to pass
> 
> 2) to come into being, become
> 
> 2a) to arise, appear, come
> 
> 2b) to become
> 
> 2b1) to become
> 
> 2b3) to be instituted, be established
> 
> 3) to be
> 
> 3a) to exist, be in existence
> 
> 3b) to abide, remain, continue (with word of place or time)
> 
> 3c) to stand, lie, be in, be at, be situated (with word of locality)
> 
> 3d) to accompany, be with "
> 
> Furthermore , in the Gospel of John , Jesus is recorded to have said "ego eimi" _Not_ "Hayah" Two completely different words in completely different languages , but both translated in to English as "I_am"
> 
> Why then did't Jesus also say "Hayah" (I_am) the same way God said "Hayah" ??
> 
> There is no exception that Jesus would say "ego eimi" _instead_ of "Hayah" becuase the Gospel does also use some Hebrew words , for example ;
> 
> (a) "Hossana" - Matthew 21:9 (b) "Eli, Eli, Lama Sabachthani" - Matthew 27:46
> 
> (c) "Rabbi" - John 3:2 (d) "Talitha cumi" - Mark 5:41
> 
> Therefore with a *Statement* as grand as "I_am" , Jesus (if he said it) would have said "Hayah" like God said "Hayah"
> 
> Instead , Jesus says "ego eimi" which is not what God said .
> 
> This proves that Jesus did Not say "I_am" like God said "I AM"
> 
> Also , this phrase appears in Jhn, but Not in Luke , Mark , or Matthew .



I'll disagree and leave it at that.



Artfuldodger said:


> You have given me the best advice yet. I'm going to put my denominational upbringing behind me, stop the back & forthness on this post(hopefull), looking for answers from preachers, teachers, etc. and just sit down with the Bible and open my heart. I've got enough in my brain to decipher for a few days. I'm not giving up on education & fellowship but I know what you are saying. Thanks



Excellent advice from Gordon...excellent response by you.

I think this thread has probably run its course.  We can all bring water to the table, but we can't make each other drink.  May the Holy Spirit guide us all as we strive to become more like Christ throughout our daily lives.


----------



## gtparts

It is entirely obvious to all who have contributed here, that God, the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit have very distinct agendas or purposes. However, I have yet to read anyone who has a thorough grasp of what "spirit" is, as it relates to God. By definition, strict monotheism's view of God attributes all wisdom and power to one eternal entity. I am fully accepting of that as the foundation of my spiritual beliefs. 

At the same time, it seems incredibly narrow-minded to place restrictions (colored by our own preferences) on this all-wise and all-powerful God. Scripture clearly leads us to understand that God's character is revealed in the person of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. A preeminent teaching is that all three expressions of the Godhead have unity. There is no differentiation or dispute, no shadow of contradiction in Father, Son, and Spirit.

The only really tough issue we seem to wrestle with is God, incarnate. Again, Scripture reveals the self-imposed restrictions or limitations placed upon God incarnate(in essence, by Himself). Jesus, because of His human body, experienced not only human emotions, but physical deprivations:  tiredness, hunger, thirst... and other aspects of humanity, such as pain. Are any of these experiences associated with the divinity ascribed to the Father? Yet, we know that in the unique expression of God incarnate, these things were present. 

So, is God one or three? While it is beyond my experience, beyond my ability to fully comprehend, my conclusion is this.

Absolutely! God operates on a totally different plane of existence, more incredible than I can understand, and while the human psyche can be fractured into such a thing as multiple personality disorder, God's expression of Himself in three persons is completely opposite of disorder. 

Is God, then, one and three? My emphatic answer is a resounding and uncompromising 'YES'! 

The only thing that might be added is this.

My trust in this spiritual truth is not only based on all the Scripture provided here, pro and con, but also through my personal relationship with God and confirmed by the Holy Spirit that indwells me.


----------



## hawglips

> Originally Posted by Huntinfool
> God is God, Jesus is his son and the Holy Spirit is a third entity. They are not one God. God, the Father is supreme over the others.





gemcgrew said:


> How do they reconcile this in light of 1 John 5:7?
> "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."



Simply put, John 17: 21-23 clears this up.  They are one in purpose.


----------

