# Yoke of Torah removed only to add a new one?



## Artfuldodger (Aug 12, 2013)

Why did God remove the Yoke of the Torah only to give us New Covenant commandments? What's the difference?
Does the New covenant offer more of a promise? We still have to follow the new commandments of Jesus even if they are different from the Torah.
I do see a difference between the Torah commandments and the commandments of Jesus but we still have commandments.
Maybe the yoke was lifted by removing some of the old commandments that no longer serves a purpose such as Sabbath keeping, dietary laws, circumcision, animal sacrifices, ceremonial laws, etc.
Some of these laws were to specific people for certain times and might have been temporary.
These are different from the commandments of Jesus which focus on love, forgiveness, and obeying God.

Either way the yoke of some commandments are still in place. What is the difference?
If the whole reason of the Torah was to show we could not follow laws, as some believe, why in the world would Jesus yoke us with more laws?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 13, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why did God remove the Yoke of the Torah only to give us New Covenant commandments? What's the difference?
> Does the New covenant offer more of a promise? We still have to follow the new commandments of Jesus even if they are different from the Torah.
> I do see a difference between the Torah commandments and the commandments of Jesus but we still have commandments.
> Maybe the yoke was lifted by removing some of the old commandments that no longer serves a purpose such as Sabbath keeping, dietary laws, circumcision, animal sacrifices, ceremonial laws, etc.
> ...



The heart can take up more "laws" and perspectives and apply them, than all the laws stated in scripture. But it has to get them from somewhere, someone. It took many generations  for a chosen, prefered, stiffed necked and heartless people and all their prophets for the Holy Spirit to get where your at. Or in other words, the God conciousness in individuals as we know it, needed priming before the Make and Break engine could be made to cycle and move the boat.



Someday we will fly...they say....


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## hummerpoo (Aug 14, 2013)

Art, remember this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by hummerpoo  
When you, or I, or anybody finds a passage, or a concept, or an era in scripture where we don’t clearly understand the continuity between/among the events, often our first thought is “God changed”. That is a very bad idea. 

Originally posted by Artfuldodger
Amen and that is the very point I was making. Righteousness is still an important part of being a Christian in the New Testament.


The questions that you have asked in the OP do not appear to apply this idea.

I do not feel compelled to put the whole thing together (feel free to read that I am being lazy) so I will supply a link.  I would not in all cases choose the same scriptural support, nor do I necessarily accept everything said by the author, but if you choose to explore the context, and consider each his contentions you will have a reasonable base from which to start your own exploration.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/otsaints.html


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 14, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Art, remember this:
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by hummerpoo
> ...



I totally agree God doesn't change and again that is why I asked the question. God doesn't change in respect of wanting people to be righteous. 
I briefly read through your link and will read it again but it appears in reference to your point is Matthew 3:15
But Christ alone fulfilled all righteousness.

I'm not trying to say God changed between the Old & New Testaments but something did change or we would not have two different testaments or covenants.

So my question again is if God sent his Son to die for our sins and to fulfill all righteousness as a way to remove the Yoke of the Law, why did he give us New Covenant Commandments? 
Do you disagree that we have New Covenant Commandments?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 14, 2013)

I'm not trying to trick anyone in answering as I don't have an answer myself.
What are your thoughts on these New Testament Commandments?
Wasn't the whole point of Jesus' death  to remove the "yoke?"


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## hummerpoo (Aug 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wasn't the whole point of Jesus' death  to remove the "yoke?"



No.

Are you still working on the above link?  I suggest that you do.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> No.
> 
> Are you still working on the above link?  I suggest that you do.



I will work on it some more but I'm constantly reading about the "YOKE DESTROYING POWER OF GOD." Christians are dead to the law and married to Jesus not to be entangled again with the yoke of bongage.

In Galatians 5:1, Paul writes, “Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” What is the yoke of bondage that Paul has in mind? If we look at the surrounding verses and chapters in Galatians, we very quickly see that Paul is writing about the law. The law is the yoke of bondage. For example, in Galatians 5:4, we read, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” That is, Paul was saying that we cannot depend on both the law and grace to justify us. It is either one or the other. And the choice of which one it should be is made clear in Galatians 2:16: “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

http://www.wordofhisgrace.org/deadtothelaw.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2013)

My understanding was this "yoke of bondage" was the Old Testament law or the Torah.
 Just in case I don't understand the lesson in the link,  what is this "yoke of bondage?"
I do understand it is sin but when we don't obey God's commanments, we are sinning.

Maybe I'm missing some basic Christian concepts.  I'll ask it in a different way. If Jesus died for our sins, why do we have New Covenant commandments?
Is obeying God &  righteousness still an important part of being a Christian in the New Testament?


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## hummerpoo (Aug 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I will work on it some more but I'm constantly reading about the "YOKE DESTROYING POWER OF GOD." Christians are dead to the law and married to Jesus not to be entangled again with the yoke of bongage.



The arguments of a student of Herbert W. Armstrong, which Mr. Ditzel appears to be, are not of consequence, so please understand if I am somewhat brief.  I should note that there are others who hold to similar positions as those expressed in this paragraph whose opinions deserve more respect.




Artfuldodger said:


> In Galatians 5:1, Paul writes, “Stand fast therefore.



The old rule is “When you see the word ‘therefore’ you must ask what it’s there for”.  Because it also indicates that what is coming emanates from what preceded, we usually look back.  There we find the bond woman and the free woman, which tells us we are correct since we are going to be looking at liberty/freedom and bondage.




Artfuldodger said:


> in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.” What is the yoke of bondage that Paul has in mind? If we look at the surrounding verses and chapters in Galatians, we very quickly see that Paul is writing about the law. The law is the yoke of bondage.



WHOA!  Evel Knievel couldn’t jump a canyon that wide.
Yes, the law is being widely discussed, but we have already determined that the subject of this sentence is liberty vs. bondage.  So what is the yoke of bondage?



Artfuldodger said:


> For example, in Galatians 5:4, we read, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”



Q. For whom has Christ become of no effect?
A. Those who are justified by the law.
Q. And who is justified by the law?
A. Nobody. (vs. 3 helps)

Again, what is the yoke of bondage?  It is reliance upon the law for ones’ justification?



Artfuldodger said:


> That is, Paul was saying that we cannot depend on both the law and grace to justify us. It is either one or the other. And the choice of which one it should be is made clear in Galatians 2:16: “Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”



Now, your initial query concerned OT commandments versus NT commandments.

Q. In the OT, who do we find who was justified by the law?
A. Nobody.


Remembering that God didn’t change….



hummerpoo said:


> I do not feel compelled to put the whole thing together (feel free to read that I am being lazy) so I will supply a link.  I would not in all cases choose the same scriptural support, nor do I necessarily accept everything said by the author, but if you choose to explore the context, and consider each his contentions you will have a reasonable base from which to start your own exploration.
> 
> http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/otsaints.html


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 15, 2013)

That was all very interesting and I appreciate your time and effort but if nobody is justified by either the Old Testament Law or New Covenant commandments, again why did Jesus go to the trouble to give them to us? They are actually in that new covenant, I read them all the time. We are continuously instructed by Jesus to obey them.
It's a simple question and again I don't have the answer, why are they there in that new Covenant?


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## hummerpoo (Aug 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That was all very interesting and I appreciate your time and effort but if nobody is justified by either the Old Testament Law or New Covenant commandments, again why did Jesus go to the trouble to give them to us? They are actually in that new covenant, I read them all the time. We are continuously instructed by Jesus to obey them.
> It's a simple question and again I don't have the answer, why are they there in that new Covenant?



It's time for a pop quiz.
By the way, 99% of your final grade will be based on this quiz.

It's all about _________?

a) doctrine
b) justification
c) me
d) saving souls
e) none of the above
f) all of the above


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 16, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> It's time for a pop quiz.
> By the way, 99% of your final grade will be based on this quiz.
> 
> It's all about _________?
> ...



I'll go with "f" as in "a" thru "d"


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## Skyking (Aug 16, 2013)

I thought of you when I ran across these today

one is 7 min and the other 2 ,have fun and hope they might help.

A Few Questions

http://119ministries.com/videoteach...6a-a400-28538a304d31&parentnavigationid=28668

A New Command?

http://119ministries.com/videoteach...5b-873d-a7fa48a88337&parentnavigationid=28668


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## hummerpoo (Aug 16, 2013)

Art,
What I was going for was e) none of the above
doctrine – is man’s attempt to understand God
justification – is God’s cleansing of fallen man so that he can be reconciled to Himself.
me – this would mean that justification is the end all.
saving souls – see justification

It’s all about ____God____




Artfuldodger said:


> My understanding was this "yoke of bondage" was the Old Testament law or the Torah.
> Just in case I don't understand the lesson in the link,  what is this "yoke of bondage?"



I believe we covered that one.




Artfuldodger said:


> I do understand it is sin but when we don't obey God's commanments, we are sinning.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing some basic Christian concepts.



Right now, I can’t think of a more important Christian concept than the sovereignty of God (or “It’s all about God”).  It is my experience, and that which I have observed in others, that when we forget that it is all about God, and we observe that God blessed us with additional revelation of Himself, we start trying to fit His revelation around us.  Next thing you know we have completely forgotten that “God doesn’t change” and decide that we have to ignore His initial revelation, or it applied to somebody else, or only some parts apply to our time, or anything else we can dream up to make God fit our preferred image of Him.




Artfuldodger said:


> I'll ask it in a different way. If Jesus died for our sins, why do we have New Covenant commandments?




For the same reason that we have the Old Testament commandments, They are part of God’s revelation of Himself to His creation.



Artfuldodger said:


> Is obeying God &  righteousness still an important part of being a Christian in the New Testament?




Yes, if it was, it is.




Artfuldodger said:


> That was all very interesting and I appreciate your time and effort but if nobody is justified by either the Old Testament Law or New Covenant commandments, again why did Jesus go to the trouble to give them to us?


 
I seem to remember you talking about the importance of care of widows, feeding the hungry, loving of neighbor, etc.  Did you invent those things?  If you got them where I think you did, by what system did you choose those as important and determine that others are to be ignored?  If God changed what He required of His people, or His salvation changed, or how He desires to be worshipped changed, then God changed. OOPS.




Artfuldodger said:


> They are actually in that new covenant, I read them all the time. We are continuously instructed by Jesus to obey them.
> It's a simple question and again I don't have the answer, why are they there in that new Covenant?



Obedience and worship are very closely related.  When we worship we are declaring His worth-ship.  When we obey we are acknowledging His worth-ship. 

As I recall, the book of Ezekiel opened my eyes.  I would suggest it to anyone whom God has moved to consider His sovereign relationship to His creation.  If you would be so moved I can give you a heads-up.  Keep a tally of every time you read the words “Then they will know that I am the Lord” or words to that effect.  Each time you find it make a written or mental note of the event to which it refers.  I believe it will open up your NT study.

You see, I believe that God wants us to worship him; and thats why He told us how.  And I believe that His people want their worship to be acceptable to Him.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 17, 2013)

Skyking said:


> I thought of you when I ran across these today
> 
> one is 7 min and the other 2 ,have fun and hope they might help.
> 
> ...



Those links aren't working but thanks for your response.


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## Lowjack (Aug 17, 2013)

Sure will like to see a verse that says the Torah is a yoke.

The Joke was not the Torah but the Rabbinical Laws and interpretations and traditions , these are the ones that Yeshua comfronted. .
Today we have sects and Pastors who Yoke the people even further than the Rabbinical laws or traditional laws.


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## Skyking (Aug 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Those links aren't working but thanks for your response.



Art try the links now...


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 17, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Sure will like to see a verse that says the Torah is a yoke.
> 
> The Yoke was not the Torah but the Rabbinical Laws and interpretations and traditions , these are the ones that Yeshua confronted. .
> Today we have sects and Pastors who Yoke the people even further than the Rabbinical laws or traditional laws.



My interpretation was off. Could I say  Rabbinical Laws contained in the Torah?
These Pastors you speak of, are they asking there people to follow New Covenant laws or is it something else? 

Putting all that heavy doctrine aside, why did Jesus die for our sins to remove the yoke of some old laws only to give us more New Covenant laws?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 17, 2013)

Skyking said:


> Art try the links now...



They still aren't working, I cant get to this page:

http://119ministries.com/messageplayer.aspx?parentnavigationid=28668

I was looking at a lesson on "testing everything" I like that the teacher said "test this lesson" and "test your faith."

I would like to eventually test the whole website.


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## Skyking (Aug 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> They still aren't working, I cant get to this page:
> 
> http://119ministries.com/messageplayer.aspx?parentnavigationid=28668
> 
> ...



not sure what's going on ,go to post 13 they seem to work for me , if not I guess as you suggested try the web site , good hunting


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## hummerpoo (Aug 18, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Sure will like to see a verse that says the Torah is a yoke.
> 
> The Yoke was not the Torah but the Rabbinical Laws and interpretations and traditions , these are the ones that Yeshua comfronted. .
> Today we have sects and Pastors who Yoke the people even further than the Rabbinical laws or traditional laws.



Why do we so resist the teaching of One who obviously has our best interest at heart?  Did you resist when your earthly father established rules designed to protect you?  I did.

Why do antagonists become joint combatants when they have a common enemy?  Why do mobs commit atrocities that no individual in the crowd would dare commit?

Is the error which Lowjack correctly described a straw man constructed to facilitate resistance to God’s teaching by the community, that we as individual believers would never dare to contemplate?  I don’t know, just trying to figure it out.

Both Jesus and Paul speak positively about God’s commandments and negatively about man’s implementation of the same.

Another view of commandments:
Starting again with the Great Commandment:
 “You shall love the Lord your God…”

John gives a definition of the love of God, (1 John 5:3):
“For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome”

and Jesus has something to say about burdens (Mat. 11):
25.  At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from {the} wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
 26.  "Yes, Father, for this way was well- pleasing in Your sight.
 27.  "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal {Him.} 
 28.  "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy- laden, and I will give you rest.
 29.  "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.
 30.  "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light."

The “yoke of bondage” which Paul refers to in Gal. 5:1 is a yoke created by men in their attempt to make themselves acceptable to God, or more probably, elevate themselves among men.

The yoke to which Christ refers is one which He gives to those to whom He wills to reveal the Father.






Only by grace can a man become an infant and thereby be yoked to the Son of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 18, 2013)

I sure hope Paul is right and I'm following a true spirit. I would like to believe he is appointed by God.
I don't understand why Jesus kept on giving us teachings in the form of commands and may never know. 
I'll try to follow the two greastest commandments and continue in "Faith, Love, & Hope."


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## hummerpoo (Aug 18, 2013)

You can have full confidence in Paul.
He gave correct admonishment:

-- New King James
Galatians 5:4  You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 

-- American Standard
… ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. 

-- Living Bible
…if you are counting on clearing your debt to God by keeping those laws…

-- Revised Standard
…you who would be justified by the law… 

-- Simple English
If you try to be made right with God through law…

-- New American Standard
…you who are seeking to be justified by law…

-- New Jerusalem with Apocrypha
once you seek to be reckoned as upright through the Law…

-- New American with Apocrypha
…you who are trying to be justified by law…

-- New Revised Standard with Apocrypha
You who want to be justified by the …

-- Weymouth's New Testament
…you who are seeking acceptance with God through the Law…

-- New Living Translation
…if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law…


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