# Hunting dog help



## hoythunter1861 (Mar 13, 2014)

Hey everyone, 
Looking for a little advice here. I'm wanting to get a dog sometime around late April/early May and not exactly sure where to look at.
Also, with that being said, I'm open for any advice on the type of training dvds and other necessities for training that I will need. I am trying to train the dog myself, but I want to do it as right as I can. I'm not sparing any expense on products that will be NEEDED. I'm not trying to skirt the edges or cut corners, I'm going to put the time in and do the best I can. And I know the dog will not be ready for this upcoming duck season, and that's perfectly fine. I'm not trying to rush everything, I want it done right. That's why I'm here asking for advice and any bit of help possible. If you'd rather PM certain things, I'm perfectly fine with that. I'll take whatever I can get! Thanks in advance


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## crow (Mar 13, 2014)

I recommend Evan Graham and his SmartDog series.  I've been around that block a time or two and no other series is as thorough and in the detail that I require and want.  It also is in written and dvd format...I am one of those who want the written format so I can take it with me and read whenever I have time.  You will not go wrong with it.


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## hoythunter1861 (Mar 14, 2014)

Thanks for the info on that! Looks like I will definitely be looking into that for sure!


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## king killer delete (Mar 14, 2014)

Join a retreiver club. Videos are good but first hand knowledge can not be beat.


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## cocdawg (Mar 14, 2014)

I posted this in the animal forum a while back...

I don't know enough to give you very much advice but I'll try. I too have a chocolate lab that was born the end of April 2013. I did tons of research and here's what I gathered. If you're doing your own training get Jackie Mertens Sound Beginnings and then Hillman's Puppy. After those dvd's graduate to Evan Graham's Smartworks or Mike Lardy's Total Retriever. 

Having said that, I quickly realized I didn't have the time nor equipment to do it myself. So I went the pro trainer route. My pup is with Joe Overby at Candler Creek Retrievers and I couldn't be happier. 

Another thing, join a local retriever club. I joined North GA HRC and hope to get more involved come spring. 

Good luck!! It's addicting.

I will add to the above this:
Since you haven't chosen your pup, talk with experienced lab people and pick the best breeding you can afford.  I didn't 100% believe this statement but trusted a much more experienced lab person.  I've owned labs in the past but they didn't compare to my current pup. Everything was so much easier (adjusting to new home, crate training, house breaking, etc) with this pup. Luck? Maybe, but I don't think so. I believe quality breeding played a huge part. 

I let Joe Overby help me select a breeding and then I spoke with the breeders and put down a deposit. I had several conversations with the breeders and told them I was a newbie that wanted a family companion first, dove/duck dog second and hopefully a hunt test dog. I let them pick my pup since they were with the litter 24/7 and knew much more about puppy/dog behavior than I. 

So far it's been a wonderful experience!!


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 14, 2014)

killer elite said:


> Join a retreiver club. Videos are good but first hand knowledge can not be beat.



Agree.  There is at least one close to you, but I'm drawing a blank right now.  Midlands HRC may be the closest one to you.  Most clubs have monthly training sessions.



crow said:


> I recommend Evan Graham and his SmartDog series.  I've been around that block a time or two and no other series is as thorough and in the detail that I require and want.  It also is in written and dvd format...I am one of those who want the written format so I can take it with me and read whenever I have time.  You will not go wrong with it.



Agree, but it is called SmartWorks, not SmartDog.  Just buy the SmartWorks Vol. 1 book.  The book is much denser with info than the DVD's and is much more economical and can be carried into the field much easier.  You can start the pup off with Sound Beginnings by Jackie Mertens.

As for selecting a pup, you need to find a reputable breeder and make sure the dog's parents have all the necessary health clearances.  These would include hips, elbows, eyes, CNM and EIC (assuming it is going to be a Lab, if not there may be different relevant health clearances).  BTW, the amount you pay for your puppy is going to be insignificant to what you spend over the course of its life.

Joe Overby (already recommended) is a good trainer for sure.  I used Ray Shanks (SwampRun Retrievers) to finish my current dog and he did an amazing job.  He may be able to recommend some litters.  I think he is closer to you than Joe.  Also, there is another good pro near you named Stephen Durrence.  He may be able to help you find a good litter.  Stephen may be the closest to you of all.  Even if the litter comes recommended, don't fail to check for health clearances.


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## hoythunter1861 (Mar 14, 2014)

Ok thanks guys! Definitely soaking up each and every bit of information yall have given. Biggest question now is, where can I get some contact information? That's basically the biggest bump in the road right now. I don't know anyone personally to really contact about this. I honestly have no idea about any breeders or anything.


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## Dog2TheLine (Mar 14, 2014)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> Just buy the SmartWorks Vol. 1 book.  The book is much denser with info than the DVD's and is much more economical and can be carried into the field much easier.
> .



The only thing that I agree with is that the book is more economical. How many have you trained yourself in this method and how good are they? 

OP, Please don't listen to this advice.


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## bluetickdog (Mar 15, 2014)

Look on facebook and check out shady acres farm and kennels.His name is Wes Chester he is a good guy and good trainer.


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## BigCats (Mar 15, 2014)

Look up sandhill kennels Hugh and al author they are here in lincolnton they are great people and are as good as it gets and have the titles to back it.  I'm sure if you call them they can get you in the right direction on local retriever clubs and such.


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## krazybronco2 (Mar 17, 2014)

hoyt i know your from augusta but dont you go to school in GCSU if so I know of one trainer in millegeville  is Kyle moody with fowl mouth retrievers. he may know of some litters that will hit the ground in the time you want. and might be able to help you alot when you are in school trainer love when they get some help throwing birds or loading wingers.

for augusta you have a couple of trainers that are local first is Marty Griner with Brier creek kennels he lives in grovetown. the second is Danny sanders with Sugar cane Kennels he is just over the river in the North Augusta area. Both i know for a fact love when people come help throw birds or load wingers. and theses guys may know of some litters hitting the ground as well. 

but look on Retriever training forum for puppies as well. 

im not going to mention any dvds or books cause they have been mentioned.

but now the list of stuff you are going to need.
crate for the house 
dog box for the truck
water and food bowl
lots and lots of bumpers small and big
A good Ecollar (dogtra or tri tonics no sportdog ask thompson Z71 about his)
heeling stick 
30' rope and a chocker chain 

and that justs gets you started 

then if you stuck with training or even sent your pup off for FF and CC you got to throw marks 
so then you get 
3 remote throwing devices (i like wingers cause you can throw ducks or bumpers)
then you need 3 remote release recievers and a transmitter.
a cheap pump shotgun for shooting poppers 


then you have a truck full of stuff for one dog and wouldnt change it for the world. Dog people are fun to be around! and you should come this weekend to the midlands HRC hunt test and watch some of what is going on.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 17, 2014)

Dog2TheLine said:


> The only thing that I agree with is that the book is more economical. How many have you trained yourself in this method and how good are they?
> 
> OP, Please don't listen to this advice.



I've only trained one using SmartWorks and he's plenty good enough.  When I ran out of time to train him, I did send him to a pro who finished out his Master training.

When I trained my first one there weren't such excellent materials available as Lardy's TRT or Graham's SmartWorks and I had to struggle through with the Water Dog book (ugh).

There is no need to buy all of the DVD's.  From the few Smartworks DVD's I've seen and from Lardy's TRT DVD's (all of them, but they've since been revised) I have, the written works by both of them are far more dense with information.

I suggest buying the written program and following it exactly (especially for a newbie).  Pay particular attention to the flow charts and do not skip any steps.  If there is something that just doesn't make sense you can always buy that particular DVD.  For instance, I would never have been confident enough to collar condition my dog without Lardy's collar conditioning DVD, which is his best video IMO.  This was before Graham came out with his collar conditioning DVD.  Another that was helpful to me was Graham's DVD on Swim By since I'd never seen it done at the time.  Another that I could see being beneficial would be his DVD on walking baseball.  Although I've never seen that DVD, that is a difficult concept to grasp just from reading it.  A lot of folks think they can throw in a DVD and learn how to train a dog, but the written materials just have a lot more info and can be carried into the field more easily in general.

Since you held my opinion in so much contempt and demanded to know how many dogs I trained with those materials (and how good they are), why don't you enlighten us by telling us what an awesome and experienced retriever trainer you are?


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 17, 2014)

Ben is correct! I will never agian buy anything sport dog! But yea I prolly got room in the truck if you want to ride to the midlands test this weekend!


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## Dog2TheLine (Mar 17, 2014)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> why don't you enlighten us by telling us what an awesome and experienced retriever trainer you are?



no demands by me. Just making sure the OP wasn't misled. And I am an experienced trainer that has trained more than 1 dog. 

I don't use the books nor the videos but for someone that has never done it before like the OP, going strictly by the written articles and not the DVD's would be a mistake. A mistake to only benefit of saving some money. If you're worried about $ spent on a training program, I'd recommend not getting into this game. Send Mike Lardy or Evan Graham an email and ask them what the intentions of the articles/book was for. They will both tell you that they were intended to be tagalongs to help with the videos. Not the other way around. 

I am not trying to be rude to you, but helpful to a new trainer. 

Both Lardys and Grahams videos go into great detail in showing how to do all the steps. Saving money is not worth the holes that can come about in training. 


And I will echo what Killer Elite has said. None of the videos are as good as getting personal instruction from a seasoned veteran. But they will get you and keep you on the right track.


SO my final advice for the OP is to get the complete DVD program. Watch it thoroughly, get with a good pro that won't mind helping and have fun with your dog. Take your time and enjoy the ride.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 17, 2014)

Dog2TheLine said:


> And I am an experienced trainer that has trained more than 1 dog.



I said I've only trained 1 dog with SmartWorks, not that I've only trained 1 dog.  I started training around January 1995 when good training materials were hard to come by and all of the good information seemed to be closely held by those who possessed it.  I've made most of the mistakes and invented some new ones.

I agree that it would be good to get help from someone with experience which is why I suggested he contact his local retriever club.

How anyone can read Lardy's article compilations (bound in "book" form) and watch his videos and conclude that there is more information in the videos is beyond me.  I haven't seen all of the SmartWorks videos but from what I've seen I'll stand by what I said about that.  The DVD's are supplemental.  To a newbie the written material is a must whether he gets any (or all) DVD's or not.


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## Joe Overby (Mar 17, 2014)

thompsonsz71 said:


> Ben is correct! I will never agian buy anything sport dog! But yea I prolly got room in the truck if you want to ride to the midlands test this weekend!



You comin to Midlands?? What you runnin?


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## krazybronco2 (Mar 17, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> You comin to Midlands?? What you runnin?



joe i can answer that one he will be running started. i think i talked him into it yesterday after watching how well his choco dog did.


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## Dog2TheLine (Mar 17, 2014)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> I said I've only trained 1 dog with SmartWorks, not that I've only trained 1 dog.  I started training around January 1995 when good training materials were hard to come by and all of the good information seemed to be closely held by those who possessed it.  I've made most of the mistakes and invented some new ones.
> 
> I agree that it would be good to get help from someone with experience which is why I suggested he contact his local retriever club.
> 
> How anyone can read Lardy's article compilations (bound in "book" form) and watch his videos and conclude that there is more information in the videos is beyond me.  I haven't seen all of the SmartWorks videos but from what I've seen I'll stand by what I said about that.  The DVD's are supplemental.  To a newbie the written material is a must whether he gets any (or all) DVD's or not.



We'll agree to disagree on the DVD V. smart work books. No biggie.

And we'll agree on the getting the experienced advice from a pro. That would be best. 

Better yet, he should just pay a pro and enjoy the finished product.


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## Joe Overby (Mar 17, 2014)

krazybronco2 said:


> joe i can answer that one he will be running started. i think i talked him into it yesterday after watching how well his choco dog did.



Make sure hes there...I'm gonna come and heckle him in the holding blinds....


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 17, 2014)

Why you gonna heckle me joe? Haha I'm hoping to be there at least on Saturday...


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## Joe Overby (Mar 17, 2014)

Good deal man.


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 17, 2014)

As long as work don't interfere with anything I plan on being there


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## Joe Overby (Mar 17, 2014)

Already starting with the excuses?? Heckling is the 2nd best thing I do!


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 17, 2014)

No excuses! The rain today pushed us back with our scheduling.... I'll be there one of the days joe... Just so you can't say I didn't show!


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## hoythunter1861 (Mar 18, 2014)

Hey everyone, I just wanted to say thank yall for all the information so far! I'm definitely going to be making a few calls probably tomorrow. I've already made a few calls so far, not much help. But still soaking up each bit of the information so far! Anything else added will be appreciated


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 18, 2014)

Like I said if you want to run over to Johnston for the midlands hunt test let me know.... All you gotta do is hop in the truck


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 18, 2014)

Dog2TheLine said:


> We'll agree to disagree on the DVD V. smart work books. No biggie.



I would ask if the SmartWorks books are just supplements to the DVD's why did he release the books FIRST?


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## Joe Overby (Mar 19, 2014)

Huntin Dawg, while I understand and agree with part of your argument I have to ask why you would advocate a rookie NOT use any and all resources INCLUDING a DVD series to help him be successful?? Yes I believe there is more info in the written material BUT, there is no demonstration in a book. No visual representation of how to pinch an ear, how to jerk a lead, or how to give a cast. 
OP. I recommend smart work, both the DVDs and the written materials, to all of my clients. I like smart work 1, 2, and smart fetch. As an additional resource I recommend "Problems and Solutions" by Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer. Evans walking baseball DVD ain't bad but I don't do a lot of that in my program. I also recommend Dave Rorems "The Art and Science of Handling".


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 19, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Huntin Dawg, while I understand and agree with part of your argument I have to ask why you would advocate a rookie NOT use any and all resources INCLUDING a DVD series to help him be successful?? Yes I believe there is more info in the written material BUT, there is no demonstration in a book. No visual representation of how to pinch an ear, how to jerk a lead, or how to give a cast.
> OP. I recommend smart work, both the DVDs and the written materials, to all of my clients. I like smart work 1, 2, and smart fetch. As an additional resource I recommend "Problems and Solutions" by Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer. Evans walking baseball DVD ain't bad but I don't do a lot of that in my program. I also recommend Dave Rorems "The Art and Science of Handling".



Joe, I agree that using both the written material AND the DVD's would be best.  I made the recommendation that I did based on several factors:

1) A lot of people gravitate to dog training DVD's because it is easier to just pop them in and put your feet up, but I think it is a big mistake to forgo the written materials.  Evan is a very good written communicator and of course there are visual aids and the (vital IMO) flow chart in the written material.

2) The guy is just getting started.  He doesn't need the whole collection of DVD's to get started, but he does need SmartWorks Vol. 1 or Lardy's article compilations to get off to a good start IMO (if he is going to do it himself).

3) When I got started there weren't great materials around and I had nobody to mentor me and one of my big problems was the lack of a comprehensive program.  I don't think the DVD's represent a comprehensive program, but the written material does.  A DVD on this and a DVD on that could lead to a disjointed approach rather than a comprehensive step by step approach in which each step builds on the last and prepares for the next (which is why the flow chart is critical IMO).

Other than that I'll defer to you because I know you (although you may not remember me) and know that you are a better and certainly more experienced dog trainer than I am.  I had fun talking to you and your dad in the gallery back in the days before you went pro.  I haven't run a hunt test in probably 5-6 years now.  I hope your dad and Hooch and Bones are all still doing well.

I can't believe I forgot to mention SmartFetch.  He should definitely get that as well if he intends to FF his own dog.  As I mentioned before, I never would have attempted to CC my own dog without Lardy's CC DVD (Graham didn't have one at the time).  I FF'd my first retriever following a book by James Spencer and my current one using SmartFetch.


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## king killer delete (Mar 19, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Already starting with the excuses?? Heckling is the 2nd best thing I do!


 You are right. You got to train. That is one thing that has not changed since I was training dogs. Good Post Joe.


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## krazybronco2 (Mar 19, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Huntin Dawg, while I understand and agree with part of your argument I have to ask why you would advocate a rookie NOT use any and all resources INCLUDING a DVD series to help him be successful?? Yes I believe there is more info in the written material BUT, there is no demonstration in a book. No visual representation of how to pinch an ear, how to jerk a lead, or how to give a cast.
> OP. I recommend smart work, both the DVDs and the written materials, to all of my clients. I like smart work 1, 2, and smart fetch. As an additional resource I recommend "Problems and Solutions" by Judy Aycock and Danny Farmer. Evans walking baseball DVD ain't bad but I don't do a lot of that in my program. I also recommend Dave Rorems "The Art and Science of Handling".



i have heard of the Dave Rorems Dvd but havent heard alot about it. Is it really that informational and is there a book i ask about the book cause i can sneak it in to work a read sections here and there?


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## Joe Overby (Mar 19, 2014)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> Joe, I agree that using both the written material AND the DVD's would be best.  I made the recommendation that I did based on several factors:
> 
> 1) A lot of people gravitate to dog training DVD's because it is easier to just pop them in and put your feet up, but I think it is a big mistake to forgo the written materials.  Evan is a very good written communicator and of course there are visual aids and the (vital IMO) flow chart in the written material.
> 
> ...


Who am I speaking with??? If you've known me that long than you know both dad and I started sans DVDs. All we had was a couple of books and thank the Lord for Jim Hodges!!! Hooch turns 12 on 3/22. He won't make it to 13 but it has been an unbelievable ride with him! Bones is 8 now. QAA and a couple of SRS 2nds. Daddy is older and slower but he's still eat up with this stuff!! We train together when he's not too busy and most weekends. I wish he'd retire so I could enjoy his company more often! 
FWIW, the books are irreplaceable. The DVDs give some of the written material clarity. I would also check out Farmer/ Aycocks new FF DVD program. I've heard rave reviews but I would still buy smart fetch from Evan. Best money he'll ever spend. 
Now seriously, who is this ghost from my past??


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## Joe Overby (Mar 19, 2014)

krazybronco2 said:


> i have heard of the Dave Rorems Dvd but havent heard alot about it. Is it really that informational and is there a book i ask about the book cause i can sneak it in to work a read sections here and there?


Yes its that informational. And yes, most of it is a reminder to not be an idiot. No there is no book. Its a DVD set. Watch it. Live it. Try to mimick Dave. It will clean up your line and it will change the way you select and pickup your marks. But if you're going to watch it pay close attention. Its horribly produced... son its rather boring...but it will make you a better handler.


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## krazybronco2 (Mar 19, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> Yes its that informational. And yes, most of it is a reminder to not be an idiot. No there is no book. Its a DVD set. Watch it. Live it. Try to mimick Dave. It will clean up your line and it will change the way you select and pickup your marks. But if you're going to watch it pay close attention. Its horribly produced... son its rather boring...but it will make you a better handler.



the better handler part is what i need haha.


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## Dog2TheLine (Mar 19, 2014)

krazybronco2 said:


> the better handler part is what i need haha.



Spend time with the RIGHT people and you can become a better handler. Spend time with bad handlers and you will remain a bad handler. Not saying you are a bad handler. Just making a point.

And I agree with JoeOverby, the Rorem DVD is an excellent look at a real hands on seminar with real dogs and real handlers and him picking them apart and showing how it's done.


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## Joe Overby (Mar 20, 2014)

I guess huntindawg wishes to remain anonymous. Huntindawg, if your ever at another ht, look me up. I'm still just as much fun in the gallery as I used to be!! I'll be the one sitting on the beer cooler!


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 20, 2014)

I'm coming to find you Saturday joe!


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## Joe Overby (Mar 20, 2014)

Had one come in heat....I'm down to 3...but I'll be there with bells on!!


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## thompsonsz71 (Mar 20, 2014)

Good deal! Looking forward to it!


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 21, 2014)

Joe Overby said:


> I guess huntindawg wishes to remain anonymous. Huntindawg, if your ever at another ht, look me up. I'm still just as much fun in the gallery as I used to be!! I'll be the one sitting on the beer cooler!



I've been away from the computer.  I don't post my name on the forum for various reasons.  I sent you a PM though.

My HRCH/MH is 9 years old now.  I would like to run him in 3 more UH tests as he has only run 1, but they are hard to find and I've got a lot going on with kids activities, etc.


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## Dog2TheLine (Mar 21, 2014)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> I've been away from the computer.  I don't post my name on the forum for various reasons.  I sent you a PM though.
> 
> My HRCH/MH is 9 years old now.  I would like to run him in 3 more UH tests as he has only run 1, but they are hard to find and I've got a lot going on with kids activities, etc.



CBSRC typically does an UPLAND quad every early spring. You've missed it for this year but if you can remember to look for it next year you can get 4 passes in one weekend so you can get your old buddy his upland title.   But a couple of the other local (SE) clubs are still having an Upland test during their weekend test. Midsouth Boykin does in the Fall. SOWEGA usually does too.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 21, 2014)

Dog2TheLine said:


> CBSRC typically does an UPLAND quad every early spring. You've missed it for this year but if you can remember to look for it next year you can get 4 passes in one weekend so you can get your old buddy his upland title.   But a couple of the other local (SE) clubs are still having an Upland test during their weekend test. Midsouth Boykin does in the Fall. SOWEGA usually does too.



I'm not familiar with CBSRC, what does the CBS stand for?  The ones I've seen that hold a double upland are typically while duck season is still open and I have a hard time missing one of the last weekends in duck season to go to a hunt test.  This year we didn't have any ducks until the last couple of weeks of the season and then we had a lot of them.  In the fall I'm trying to hunt deer plus my daughter is playing softball in spring AND fall and they usually have a game every Saturday so something has to give...


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## Dog2TheLine (Mar 21, 2014)

HuntinDawg89 said:


> I'm not familiar with CBSRC, what does the CBS stand for?  The ones I've seen that hold a double upland are typically while duck season is still open and I have a hard time missing one of the last weekends in duck season to go to a hunt test.  This year we didn't have any ducks until the last couple of weeks of the season and then we had a lot of them.  In the fall I'm trying to hunt deer plus my daughter is playing softball in spring AND fall and they usually have a game every Saturday so something has to give...



It's Carolina Boykin Spaniel HRC. An upstate of South Carolina club. Great club that puts on a good test. Their quads are just a convenient way to knock out a UH title in one weekend.


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## HuntinDawg89 (Mar 23, 2014)

Dog2TheLine said:


> It's Carolina Boykin Spaniel HRC. An upstate of South Carolina club. Great club that puts on a good test. Their quads are just a convenient way to knock out a UH title in one weekend.



OK thanks.  I'll keep that in mind.


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