# Matthew 21:43 kingdom taken?



## Artfuldodger (Jul 30, 2016)

42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ? 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit. 

Whom was the kingdom of God taken and to whom was it given?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ? 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
> 
> Whom was the kingdom of God taken and to whom was it given?



The taken from is easy, all you have to do is back up and see who Jesus was speaking to when He said, " Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from YOU and given to a people who will produce its fruit".

 He was speaking to v. 23 the Chief priests and the elders of the people.

Also confirmed in v. 45 the Chief priests and Pharisees.

 Those Parables have a great meaning to them when you read them concerning the end of the old covenant age.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ? 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
> 
> Whom was the kingdom of God taken and to whom was it given?[/QUOTE
> 
> ...


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## Israel (Jul 31, 2016)

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 31, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’ ? 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
> 
> Whom was the kingdom of God taken and to whom was it given?



45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.

So, what did they hear in the parables?  In the parable of the two sons, that the Tax Collectors and the Prostitutes were faithful and the Chief Priest and Elders were unfaithful, right?  In the parable of the landowner, that those who tended the vineyard were unfaithful in fulfilling the requirements of the Landowner, to the point of killing the Son in attempting to claim the fruit for themselves, right?

So who looses the Kingdom?: the unfaithful (more specifically, those who claim they are of the Kingdom but have proven their claim to be false by their lack of produced Kingdom fruit).
Who gains the Kingdom?  Those who are faithful to receive that which is revealed to them of the Kingdom by the Father/Landowner.

Note the sequence of John then Jesus which is established in vss. 23-27; then the same sequence is followed in the parable of the Two Sons and the parable of the Landowner.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 31, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> 45 When the chief priests and the Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking about them.
> 
> So, what did they hear in the parables?  In the parable of the two sons, that the Tax Collectors and the Prostitutes were faithful and the Chief Priest and Elders were unfaithful, right?  In the parable of the landowner, that those who tended the vineyard were unfaithful in fulfilling the requirements of the Landowner, to the point of killing the Son in attempting to claim the fruit for themselves, right?
> 
> ...



Galatians 3 . 

The unfaithful were the Judaizers, the chief priests, and Pharisee. 
 The faithful were the remnant with the Gentiles grafted in...by Faith! The faithful were receiving the Kingdom.Hebrews 12:28


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## hummerpoo (Aug 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Galatians 3 .
> 
> The unfaithful were the Judaizers, the chief priests, and Pharisee.
> The faithful were the remnant with the Gentiles grafted in...by Faith! The faithful were receiving the Kingdom.Hebrews 12:28



The faithful were those who were faithful.
The unfaithful were those who were not.
(Rm. 2:11, Deut. 10:17, Acts 10:34,35)


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## RH Clark (Aug 1, 2016)

The kingdom was taken from Israel and given to the gentile. When the end of the gentile age is completed by the rapture of the church, God will again deal with Israel.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

How could the kingdom be given to the gentile considering the gentile was grafted into Israel?

Also as noted, Jesus was addressing the chief priests and Pharisees, not Israel.


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## RH Clark (Aug 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> How could the kingdom be given to the gentile considering the gentile was grafted into Israel?
> 
> Also as noted, Jesus was addressing the chief priests and Pharisees, not Israel.



Were the chief priests and Pharisees not of Israel? Do you suppose Jesus was speaking only to those few in front of him?

Is the gentile grafted into Israel or rather grafted into the vine which is Christ?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Were the chief priests and Pharisees not of Israel? Do you suppose Jesus was speaking only to those few in front of him?



Yes and yes.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Is the gentile grafted into Israel or rather grafted into the vine which is Christ?



If Jesus was talking about Israel and the Gentiles were being grafted into Israel, then he wouldn't be taking the Kingdom from Israel. Why would he take the Kingdom from a group he was letting Gentiles be grafted into?

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:25-26
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,
26and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.

Paul let's us know it is the Commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:12-13
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 2:19
 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household,


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

Romans 11:27-28
 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.
29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience, 31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you.
32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”

Isaiah 14:1
The LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again he will choose Israel and will settle them in their own land. Foreigners will join them and unite with the descendants of Jacob.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

Due to the grafting in of Gentiles to the commonwealth of Israel, foreigners have joined them. We are all united in Christ;

Galatians 3:27-29
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

Is it "neither" or "no longer?"

There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus.


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## RH Clark (Aug 1, 2016)

Where does the scripture say we are grafted into Israel?

I see the scripture below but it does not say to me that the gentiles are grafted into Israel. I see that the gentiles didn't have even the blood lineage that Israel claimed. I don't see that the Gentile is saved because they become one with Israel but that both the gentile and Israel must become one in Christ for salvation.

Ephesians 2:12-13
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ



Galatians 3:27-29
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.

I've tried to explain to you many times that the (seed) referred to above is not Israel but Christ. That's what the scripture says but you never seem to acknowledge it.
Gal.3:16
“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Where does the scripture say we are grafted into Israel?
> 
> I see the scripture below but it does not say to me that the gentiles are grafted into Israel. I see that the gentiles didn't have even the blood lineage that Israel claimed. I don't see that the Gentile is saved because they become one with Israel but that both the gentile and Israel must become one in Christ for salvation.
> 
> ...



I agree that the seed is Jesus. Galatians was referenced to show there is no longer a Jew or Gentile in relation to salvation.

Ephesians 2:12-13 shows that there was some type of alienation or exclusion.

Romans 11 is all about Israel being hardened to allow the Gentile to be grafted in. The whole chapter is about the grafting in of the Gentile to the Jewish olive tree.

Try to see it as an inclusion of the Gentiles. Gentile INCLUSION doesn’t imply Israel’s exclusion. 
The Gentiles became partakers, not takers.
The Gentiles can now share the nourishing sap of the olive root.

"became PARTAKERS with them of the rich root of the olive tree,"

"do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you."

You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."

"After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!"

"and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

"for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable."


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

Romans 11:1
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.

Romans 11:28
As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
 29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”

I think where many fail is trying to see the mind of God and figure out his justification for salvation.
God doesn't pick and choose based on our works. He didn't pick Israel based on their merits. 

You can't think that God has turned his back on a nation based on them turning their back on his Son. Romans 11 lets us know this. Everything went down according to God's plan. 

Romans 9:14-15
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Absolutely not! 15For He says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

Israel will receive the mercy we have received. We are all consigned to disobedience so that God can have mercy on us.
It's the same for Israel. 
Everything had to happen a certain way to make the plan happen the way God planned. He doesn't hold that against us or Israel forever.

We can't search God's judgements. We don't know his mind.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 1, 2016)

The only way I could see the Church becoming Israel is if God divorced Israel in 70AD.


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## RH Clark (Aug 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The only way I could see the Church becoming Israel is if God divorced Israel in 70AD.



What in the world are you talking about?

The Church is the Body of Christ, composed of believers from every nation and denomination. The Church does not become Israel. Israel could repent, turn to Christ and become a member of the Church.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> What in the world are you talking about?
> 
> The Church is the Body of Christ, composed of believers from every nation and denomination. The Church does not become Israel. Israel could repent, turn to Christ and become a member of the Church.



I agree that the Church doesn't become Israel. I think Romans 11 is telling us that they can repent and become a member of the Church. 
Romans 11 is still teaching us about the Jews being blinded in order for the Gentiles to be grafted in.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> What in the world are you talking about?
> 
> The Church is the Body of Christ, composed of believers from every nation and denomination. The Church does not become Israel. Israel could repent, turn to Christ and become a member of the Church.



Concerning God divorcing Israel is the marriage of the Lamb.
God divorced Israel on the cross, next came the betrothal period(church); bride washed and purified by the blood of Christ, looking to the consummation.
Next came the marriage with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Marriage consummated; Christ cohabits with wife in the New Jerusalem (church).

Does the event in Romans 11 tell of a future event or the way it went down before 70AD?


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## RH Clark (Aug 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning God divorcing Israel is the marriage of the Lamb.
> God divorced Israel on the cross, next came the betrothal period(church); bride washed and purified by the blood of Christ, looking to the consummation.
> Next came the marriage with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Marriage consummated; Christ cohabits with wife in the New Jerusalem (church).
> 
> Does the event in Romans 11 tell of a future event or the way it went down before 70AD?



Where do you find that God divorced Israel?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Where do you find that God divorced Israel?



I don't necessarily believe he did. You stated earlier that the kingdom was taken from Israel and given to the gentiles.
I said the only way I could see this happening was if God divorced Israel  and remarried the Church in 70AD.

Some folks feel that God took the kingdom from Israel because Israel turned their back on God by not believing in Jesus. 
According to some people, Old Testament prophesy explains this concept as a divorce and re-marriage. 

I personally can't see it that way because of Romans 9-11. I don't think the events in Romans 9-11 have all taken place yet. But if they have then I'd say that God divorced Israel and married the Church.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

It gets quite confusing reading of Israel and the Church. Sometimes we try to tie them together and other times we are separating them.
Was Christianity ever about Israel? Can one get Christianity without understanding Judaism? Is all of the historical and genealogical parts of the Bible important? Was Israel set up to fail to give salvation to the real recipients? Did election end at 70AD?

Many feel that because of Israel's rejection that God divorced them and married the Church. This is how they see God's judgment. They abandoned God so he abandoned them. I think Romans 11 paints a different picture. Romans 11 tells us not to be so conceited in thinking we are better than them. It tells us they were blinded so that we could be grafted in. It tells us that they can be grafted back in. It tells us that all of Israel will be saved. It tells us that "regarding election, they are loved." Why? Because of their lineage from the patriarchs. Romans 11  tells us God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Paul then explains to us how it's all about God's mercy and not anything we do. We were disobedient and received salvation. They too were disobedient so that they too will receive God's mercy. 
God consigned all of us to disobedience so that he can have mercy on us. Romans 11 tells us that God's wisdom is great and his judgments are unsearchable. None of us have given God anything that he owes us for. 

Now many read of the Jews and how they turned their backs on Jesus and this some how makes them think they a wee bit more deserving of salvation. They read of these events and make everything about the Gentile. Even so far that it's always been about the Gentile or the Church.
That God through election, elected the Jew for failure, not salvation. It's always been about the Church and never about the Jew. 

I guess what I'm looking for is a happy medium. I know that not everyone who is born a Jew is one of God's children. Paul tells us this in chapter 9. He also tells us in chapter 9 that the true children of God are the children of the promise. Chapter 9 has a lot of predestination and election. Maybe freewill didn't kick in until 70AD.

OK, so I know who the Church is. What I don't know is who Israel is. What Israel were we grafted into in Romans 11? Can we see that God is going to grant that Israel, the one we are grated into, another chance at salvation? 
If not then perhaps God did divorce that Israel and remarry in 70AD. Perhaps the events of Romans 9-11 are passed.

Pertaining to how we know that God has or had a plan for Israel can be found in Romans 11. God blinded the Jews to allow the Gentiles to be grafted in. He can ungraft us and he can graft the Jews back in. We are all equally disobedient. Salvation doesn't or didn't have anything to do with disobedience. God can have mercy on the Jews as he did us.

Romans 11:34
"Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?"

Romans 9:15
For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

I've got to read Romans 9-11 more to gain it's meaning. Paul's teachings are a little hard to follow. It's hard to pinpoint him down. Romans 9 is different from Romans 11. Who is this Israel? Is this a physical Israel or a spiritual Israel? 

Let's start with Paul in chapter 9. Right off the bat Paul wishes he could trade his salvation for that of Israel. What popped in my head is that he was willing to die for the sins of others. A type of savior if you will. I think he knew that he couldn't really do that and was only wishing.

The next thing that popped in my head was why did he care about Israel? He had to know that salvation was for the elected remnant of Israel and the elected Gentiles. He speaks a lot of the elect in chapter 9. So if he knew that salvation was for the Church and not Israel, why did it bother him so? 
Paul speaks a lot about the Jews and Gentiles in Romans 9-11. How they were separated and how they were blended. The patriarchs and the heirs to the promises. 
Who were these heirs? Israel or the Church? Did something change or has it always been about the Church?

"Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham's children." So the real children were never Israel? Then why was Paul so upset he was willing to die for their salvation?

"Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand:"

Purpose in election? This returns to the old argument mentioned in Romans 11; "is God fair and just in his election? Blinding Jews so that the full number of Gentiles can come in? Again granting salvation to terribly disobedient Jews?

God raised Pharaoh up for a special purpose. Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

I'm not making this stuff up folks. Even through all of this we can't blame God for finding fault within us. We can't question God's hardening or mercy and it's not based on anything we do.
God did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory.

Romans 9:24
As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

I think this is a key verse showing where God is telling us Israel will not be his and the Gentiles will.
Then we read that a Remnant of Jews will be elected. Maybe God was saving a Remnant for some future special purpose after he destroyed Jerusalem.

"the people of Israel, who tried so hard to get right with God by keeping the law, never succeeded."

They didn't seek it by faith but by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

So did God place this Stone in place to purposely make the Jews stumble so the real recipients could receive salvation?
Were the Jews elected for the purpose of failure?

I'll read chapter 10 later. Comments?


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## RH Clark (Aug 2, 2016)

Artful
I wish you would order this and read it.
http://www.thriftbooks.com/w/word-s...ament_kenneth-s-wuest/310798/#isbn=0802812317

I think you would see things in a different light.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> ... Romans 11 tells us not to be so conceited in thinking we are better than them...



If the self-elevating pride which you identify with this statement ceased to exist, untold numbers of churches would be emptied, denominations would disappear, and many doctrines would go the way of geocentric cosmology.

OH ... how do you think discussions on this forum would be effected?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> If the self-elevating pride which you identify with this statement ceased to exist, untold numbers of churches would be emptied, denominations would disappear, and many doctrines would go the way of geocentric cosmology.
> 
> OH ... how do you think discussions on this forum would be effected?



It would slim down the discussions for sure.

Romans 11:20
Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble.

or

That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.

high minded, conceited. I'm not sure Paul is tying to display pride as he is maybe a warning but to who?  
                                                                                               21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.

 "Otherwise you also will be cut off."

Makes it sound like the grafting can be undone. Chapter 9 says differently.  Peter was right about Paul's teaching ways.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 2, 2016)

I'm just checking in and scanning over. Art , it sounds like you're starting to put a picture together.

 A covenant is a legal contract just like a marriage contract. The old Mosaic covenant was still intact with Jerusalem when Christ was come in the flesh. Jerusalem was the Bride of God and her duty was to remain faithful and produce children of God. We see in Matthew 23 She had become evil.. In Jeremiah 3:8 we read of the divorce decree upon Israel.

 "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

 Judah played the Harlot here: 
John 19:15 So they cried out, "Away with Him, away with Him, crucify Him!" Pilate said to them, "Shall I crucify your King?" The chief priests answered, "We have no king but Caesar."

 They (apostate Israel) Chief priests and Pharisee ie. the unfaithful... representing physical Israel were playing the Harlot and was divorced by God through death (ad70) but she died in childbirth of the new covenant.. Christs 
Bride , the faithful, the remnant, the elect..Which consisted of the true Israel...
Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
 See to truly be of Israel..to be the bride..to be the remnant ..to be the elect...required faith in Christ, and faith was coming from the Jew first but also of the Gentile.

 All this is covered in the epistles...but in the olivet discourses of Matthew , Mark, Luke ,  The revelation revealed from the prophecies of old in Daniel we see what was to come next.. At the crushing of the power of the Holy people (70 ad) the resurrection was to take place, and the Christ was to consummate His wedding at the resurrection.. It's a beautiful story. Thank you Jesus for redeeming mankind!


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

Hobbs, how do we work the divorce of Israel into the equation if Matthew 21:43 is addressing the priest and elders or does verse 23 not have anything to do with physical Israel?

43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

When you read Romans 11, what Israel do you see the Gentiles being grafted into?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

Romans 10

Again Paul starts out desiring and praying to God to save Israel. He defends them by saying their enthusiasm they have for God is misdirected. That they were driven by the wrong knowledge.

Wasn't this misdirected knowledge given to them in the form of the Old Covenant? How were they suppose to know that it was salvation from grace if they were given a covenant of rules to follow knowing full well they could never keep them? Why didn't they realize the covenant could not be kept?
The covenant was based on works. When they pursued it the works overcame the meaning. They developed their own meaning.
It was more about the works than the message of love and grace.

From this point I would say we can all learn a little about what Legalism can lead to. The main thing I get out of works is if one is doing it to honor God or for pride. It shouldn't be something you feel forced to do for religious purposes.
Religion is for show, helping others is a way to honor God. If you help someone, you are helping Jesus. In that respect they are the same person.

Sorry, getting back to Romans 10, Christ is the culmination of the law.

"believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

"Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."

"For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,"

 "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Right away the first thing I see in chapter 10 vs 9 is freewill. Chapter 9 is all about election and chapter 10 is all about freewill.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 2, 2016)

Romans 10:14, Paul shifts his concern back to the Jews;

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?"

"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news"

But I ask, have the people of Israel actually heard the message? Yes, they have: "The message has gone throughout the earth, and the words to all the world."

But I ask, did the people of Israel really understand? Yes, they did, for even in the time of Moses, God said, "I will rouse your jealousy through people who are not even a nation. I will provoke your anger through the foolish Gentiles."

And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."

But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

Romans 10 shows freewill but Romans 11 returns to the election and predestination shown in chapter 9. From Romans 11  "A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened" and
"God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew."


Romans 11:1-2
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
 2God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says about Elijah, how he appealed to God against Israel:

In chapter 9 Paul is willing to give up his own salvation for Israel. In chapter 10 Paul desires and prays for God to save Israel.
In chapter 11 Paul tells us God will not reject his people. After that he tells us he is an Israelite.
God says; " "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."

So again I ask, who is this Israel? In this Israel  most of the people  had not found the favor of God they are looking for so earnestly. A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened.

God gave this Israel  a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day."

Because of this Israel's  transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make this Israel envious.

This Israel's rejection of the gospel  brought reconciliation to the world.

This Israel is the olive tree that we the wild branches were grafted into contrary to nature. We can be removed and the natural branches can be replaced. This Israel is represented by this olive tree.
This Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in and in this way this Israel will be saved. 
For God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.

"O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"

What Israel is Romans 9-11 talking about? Hint; Gentiles were grafted into it. Paul was born into it.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Right away the first thing I see in chapter 10 vs 9 is freewill.


Keep reading.
"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"

Art, if a man does not believe a thing, what precedes belief? Will a man accept a proposition while it is foolishness to him? What must take place prior?

Conversion.

The will is subject to the strongest influence. It is not free.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 3, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, how do we work the divorce of Israel into the equation if Matthew 21:43 is addressing the priest and elders or does verse 23 not have anything to do with physical Israel?
> 
> 43Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
> 
> When you read Romans 11, what Israel do you see the Gentiles being grafted into?



If I understand your question, the answer is, the chief priests and elders were the unfaithful..ie apostate Israel. At the time Jesus is speaking to them in Matt.21  The Kingdom of God was a physical place Judah. The chief priests and elders were an adversary to the lost sheep that Jesus came for.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2016)

"All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed?"

This is the thing I run across reading Romans 9-11. At one point Paul appears to be blaming the Jews. The next minute it's "how can they believe?"

Is it "God gave Israel a spirit of stupor" or;

"believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."

"Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."

"For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him,"

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."

How can it be when we read in Romans 10 & 11 that it wasn't? Unless the blinding and hardening was/is temporary.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2016)

"A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened" 

"is God fair and just in his election? Blinding Jews so that the full number of Gentiles can come in?"

"natural branches removed to allow un-natural branches to be grafted in. Un-natural branches can be removed and natural branches added back in"

"O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!"

It's hard to read Romans 9-11 and not see that God controlled the whole chain of events. Now considering that, and that we can't figure out his mind, isn't it possible that Israel will be given a 2nd chance? Maybe not the whole nation but some type of Israel. Doesn't Romans 11 teach this? Even to the point of telling us to not try to understand God for doing it?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 3, 2016)

The blinding.. God did also in Isaiah 6 .. Until the cities lay in waste.
 When God blinded a people it was just before His judgement and destruction came upon them.


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## gemcgrew (Aug 3, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> "A few have--the ones God has chosen--but the hearts of the rest were hardened"
> 
> "is God fair and just in his election? Blinding Jews so that the full number of Gentiles can come in?"
> 
> ...


Where does Paul raise a question that he does not answer?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2016)

Maybe it's me raising questions without answers and not Paul.

The way I read Romans 9-11 is the blinding, hardening, and mercy started way before Romans 9-11. Perhaps before creation.

I don't think it's something God comes up with just before he destroys a city.

"For the children being not yet born"

 "Neither having done any good or evil"


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2016)

Romans 9:18-20
18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?”  20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?

I can't question this because I'd be accused of talking back to God but if we fast forward to chapter 11, Paul again tells us not to question God in the way he will save Israel.

26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”  28Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.
29For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. 30Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,  31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33 O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!  34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?"

Does anyone see a pattern of mercy and hardening? God says he will save Israel. We can't question his judgment. He broke the branches off, he can put them back on.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 3, 2016)

The blinding and hardening of Israel happened before Jesus died on the cross, not after. It's not like they messed up and then he hardened them right before he destroyed Jerusalem. 

"31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you."

Did this happen before or after Jerusalem was destroyed?


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## gordon 2 (Aug 3, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> If I understand your question, the answer is, the chief priests and elders were the unfaithful..ie apostate Israel. At the time Jesus is speaking to them in Matt.21  The Kingdom of God was a physical place Judah. The chief priests and elders were an adversary to the lost sheep that Jesus came for.





John 3:4-5King James Version (KJV)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Ezek 36:25-27)


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## hobbs27 (Aug 3, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> John 3:4-5King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
> 
> 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Ezek 36:25-27)



Yes. The kingdom is the governance or the rulership of God. It was going to be taken from the chief priests and elders and given to the elect. Below describes the old covenant Kingdom.
http://www.ligonier.org/blog/kingdom-god-old-testament-prophetic-hope/


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## gordon 2 (Aug 3, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. The kingdom is the governance or the rulership of God. It was going to be taken from the chief priests and elders and given to the elect. Below describes the old covenant Kingdom.
> http://www.ligonier.org/blog/kingdom-god-old-testament-prophetic-hope/



You like ligonier eh?  I do also... 

Let me add something here. It seems to me that although there was a earthly kingdom for the Jews, it seems also there was an other one from the get go. I say this because it seems to me if I recall correctly that our Lord was a bit surprised and perhaps upset that His people wanted another king other than Him. 

Now I"m not saying that there was not a earthly kingdom, we all know there was. But did the heavenly kingdom go away because of it. ( Did Isreal have a king when Jesus and Caiaphas walked the earth.) And I mean by this that the heavenly kingdom for the Jews was our Lord's who's right hand had made them who they really were.


I don't think for a Jerusalem minute that all the jews hand their lambs in the earthly kingdom. But then, this might not be in scripture... so... it speaks or it don't.

Also, the whole gist of Jesus' conversation with Nic seems to suggest that some jews knew what was up and what was down in my view. And also John the Baptist seemed to know how to discern what was heavenly from what was earthly. And he did not get his info from the politics of the day, no, not from that kingdom but from another. 

But perhaps I'm on a tangent. Yet it seems to me that the jews were not stupid people and some  knew and know of our kingdom...regardless of our politics.

I'm beginning to suspect that some of the jews, those who believed, might have held on to the "the spark" and who were informed spiritually from above due to some theophany in their past were in fact born again as Jesus describes it to Nic.

But don't try to cash this at the local banks. 
---------------


John 3:10King James Version (KJV)

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?   ???


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## Israel (Aug 3, 2016)

I see a sure preservation made manifest to the people of Israel that was to speak of salvation if received and sought in appreciation. To some extent we may see this in David, no? He searched deeply into the meaning of the covenant that spoke of a faith and faithfulness to which he laid hold. He appreciated. 
It would seem most didn't. Prophets appeared in stern rebuke of a people both failing and resisting to see, and lay hold. 
The benefits of position were coveted and sought, but the author of the covenenant...not so much.

I don't rehash this for any other purpose than mentioned by the apostles. If...all these things...and consequences were worked out in our sight for our admonition, what do we take from them? If, as is said, be not high minded, but fear...we could, I suppose, perhaps feel a certain surety, that may not be of God, if we by time lines, diagrams, musings...somehow come to a place where in our own minds "we" are sure we are the ones "now". 
I don't say this in rebuke or rebuff. But there seems a certain appreciation, which, if lacking...gets us very concerned about who and what is in, or out, was in or out...

I know I am not relating this well at all as it seems a sensing not easily put into words. It could just as easily just be me...being high minded, and not knowing where the scent is coming from...


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## hobbs27 (Aug 3, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> You like ligonier eh?  I do also...
> 
> Let me add something here. It seems to me that although there was a earthly kingdom for the Jews, it seems also there was an other one from the get go. I say this because it seems to me if I recall correctly that our Lord was a bit surprised and perhaps upset that His people wanted another king other than Him.
> 
> ...




I think we agree on most,  but arrive to our conclusion from different paths. Jesus was King of the Jew's, but remember..He had to slip out one evening because many were coming to get Him to crown Him King??? They knew He was King..those lost sheep, elect, 144,000, remnant....they just didn't totally understand it yet. They had knowledge of many great things, but were awaiting the Holy Spirit to open the books concealed in the old covenant.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 4, 2016)

Israel said:


> I see a sure preservation made manifest to the people of Israel that was to speak of salvation if received and sought in appreciation. To some extent we may see this in David, no? He searched deeply into the meaning of the covenant that spoke of a faith and faithfulness to which he laid hold. He appreciated.
> It would seem most didn't. Prophets appeared in stern rebuke of a people both failing and resisting to see, and lay hold.
> The benefits of position were coveted and sought, but the author of the covenenant...not so much.
> 
> ...




I think your word appreciation* is perhaps groaning due the aspect of faith which knows truth because it is from above. And by above I mean from the loving wisdom of God, which does not depend on line drawings, graphs, and eccentric personal knowledge from study.

So you say perhaps if I understand correctly that David in faith by his own will and understanding rummaged the scriptures perhaps as an earnest effort of his faith only to find that a better effort was to match his will to the will of God in an intimate one on one relationship. From this David's faith changed from believing and striving to knowing and being. From wanting life to having it.

So it was an appreciation* of faith. * Appreciation in the sense that faith does not grow progressively from points on a graph, but rather as yeast raises bread.

If this x means this then this  y+x must mean this seems somehow earthly reasoning. There is no "must mean" meanings in heavenly reasoning perhaps. It is not reasoning within a secret system that one hopefully might falls upon. Things from above are in comparison  and by definition face to face and of the all in all. 

Or simply perhaps a high minded servant secretly seeks to, knowingly or not, serve herself/himself  to meat at the Lord's table in the same manner as when she/her were served milk.

 We would not deny  a child or still growing physically growing person all the foods they can eat , but this might not be wise when no longer a child and now a physically matured adult and perhaps similarly as when spiritually one is no longer on milk and is aware of spiritual gift and now to meats.

So faith does not mean that some might not reason carnally. Most young Christians do when they yet being told it is of no use to grasp for grace, they do. Young or old when we do this, personal revelation becomes problematic. Everything seems to fit together from a toddler's unique perspective but although airplanes taxi on runways, trucks that taxi on runways x+y, don't fly-- although toddlers make them do it and believe they do it. The problem is that some adult do this also... perhaps. 

So faith must appreciate... must grow... from seeking to be and grasping to find and onto finding that serving in relationship is being.

Maybe...


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2016)

Reading about the two Israel's in scripture, could we say when it's bad things happening to Israel it's national Israel and when it's good things happening to Israel it's spiritual Israel?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2016)

Reading the intro to Romans 10 again I wonder still why Paul wishes and prays that his countrymen will receive salvation. He had just stated that God was sovereign and elected the folks in chapter 9.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 4, 2016)

Romans 9:27 states only a remnant will be saved.

Romans 11:26 states all of Israel will be saved.

Maybe at that time, the Remnant and grafted in Gentiles are "all of Israel."

Now if God chose the Remnant, wouldn't it stand to reason he would also choose the grafted in Gentiles? 

But;
 Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

It sounds like more Jews other than the remnant will be added as the hardening was only temporary.

"and in this way all Israel will be saved."

It's like the remnant was chosen only to keep some natural Jews around until the full number of Gentiles had come in. Then, later down the road, all of the natural Jews elected by God(all of Israel) will be saved.


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## Israel (Aug 5, 2016)

gordon 2 said:


> I think your word appreciation* is perhaps groaning due the aspect of faith which knows truth because it is from above. And by above I mean from the loving wisdom of God, which does not depend on line drawings, graphs, and eccentric personal knowledge from study.
> 
> So you say perhaps if I understand correctly that David in faith by his own will and understanding rummaged the scriptures perhaps as an earnest effort of his faith only to find that a better effort was to match his will to the will of God in an intimate one on one relationship. From this David's faith changed from believing and striving to knowing and being. From wanting life to having it.
> 
> ...



The things of our formation (to me at least) are certainly mysteries to us. Why one seems disposed this way, another that, one finds this, another finds that...(one grows loving lima beans, another gags at their mere thought.)
For me, now, the sum of what I would probably call "my own life" is nothing more than a catalog of what would best be called (again by me) _unintended consequences_.
I can no more explain why Jesus Christ makes sense to me than I could explain to my own father I wasn't seeking to despise my mother's cooking or do her spite in any way. (Lima beans were not allowed past the back of my tongue.) But that he does make sense, perfect sense in his consistency, I am unable to deny.
How can this be?
How can the thing that appears to me so perfect in purpose and purposeful execution, make sense to what is aware only of its own stumbling about? Really...as though blind? How can it even see...that thing made salvation to him? Can it say "Oh, I see that because, like that, I can recognize the pure reason and reasonableness of it...for I myself am a reasonable man"? God forbid! I am anything but.
To a man like David...how did he get to "you don't desire the blood of bulls and goats"...when to all about him this huge machine, acceptable in their sight, ground out flesh of bulls and goats...with much approval of man, and _apparently_ according to the given blueprint? How could he do what was not lawful (eat the shewbread), and be held blameless? And know it? Was it mere boldness of his own? Rebellion? Despising of a system? God forbid. And yet he saw a "beyond" the shadows.
Somehow, a man like David (of whom it could be said, by someone like me, that he surely knew how a life of unintended consequences appeared) and yet he discovered this also..."God causes all things to work together for good to those who love him, who are the called according to His purpose" to the measure that that the very Christ of God was not at all ashamed to be associated with his name.

Yet, when told what a fool he appeared...he did not resist.


And I will yet be more contemptible than this, and will be abased in my own sight: and of the maidservants whom you have spoken, of them shall I be held in honor.

Something is going on.


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## welderguy (Aug 5, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 9:27 states only a remnant will be saved.
> 
> Romans 11:26 states all of Israel will be saved.
> 
> ...



If you can understand this statement:
"They are not all Israel who are of Israel",
then you understand there is an Israel that God chose who are out of every kindred,tongue,and nation.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 5, 2016)

welderguy said:


> If you can understand this statement:
> "They are not all Israel who are of Israel",
> then you understand there is an Israel that God chose who are out of every kindred,tongue,and nation.



Yep. They were given the inheritance or promise to Abraham, by faith not birthright. Jesus being the Seed  and the elect Co heirs of Abraham's promise.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

Is that what Romans 11 is telling us? Have ya'll read chapter 11 lately?

God chooses a remnant and blinds the rest. Have the "rest" stumbled so far as to not recuperate? Not at all, just long enough to alow the grafting in of the Gentiles. 
This period was to make the "rest" jealous. If "they" which is the "rest" of Israel turn from their unbelief, they can be grafted back in.
Do not be ignorant of this mystery.  Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in and in this way all Israel will be saved.
This is the physical nation guys. The Gentiles were grafted in. God said "and this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

Regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. 
God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. They have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy.

 "Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!"

Why would Paul say this if it wasn't in reference to what he said God was doing to national Israel?

"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay them?"

Paul is reminding us and has mentioned it a time or two earlier that God elects based on grace and not works. This is how he elected the remnant. This is how he will elect physical Israel.
This is what Romans 11 is telling us.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 5, 2016)

Israel said:


> The things of our formation (to me at least) are certainly mysteries to us. Why one seems disposed this way, another that, one finds this, another finds that...(one grows loving lima beans, another gags at their mere thought.)
> For me, now, the sum of what I would probably call "my own life" is nothing more than a catalog of what would best be called (again by me) _unintended consequences_.
> I can no more explain why Jesus Christ makes sense to me than I could explain to my own father I wasn't seeking to despise my mother's cooking or do her spite in any way. (Lima beans were not allowed past the back of my tongue.) But that he does make sense, perfect sense in his consistency, I am unable to deny.
> How can this be?
> ...



Ah! David went to God first and then sacrificed. Those who judged incorrectly in this case might have gone to sacrifice first and then to God. I say might, but I think they did and still do.

Michal judged David for what she perceived to be a sin to her parents. It colored her judgement of him. ( I have judged people in this manner myself, in the past and perhaps still do it...) David explains that God is the originator of his actions. God chose him from his brothers, one of which is Michal*s dad. Michal think David is lording in himself, but it is not the case. She is lording in her sin (judging incorrectly).

David says it might look like the king is basking in his achievements and behaving with the poor manners of a peasant ( a simple sheep herder) but his heart is genuine because it is to God first. And because it is genuine the maidens who are without sin or without Michal*s sin will not second guess what is his joy.

So to explain why I can love Jesus and His truth simply ( in simplicity): Being baptized in Him that was baptized in blood I am made sin free ( my motivations do not have to be from the earth, but can be from above now) and made to see not like Michal but like the other maidservants who fully trust their king, his motivation and  in his joy as genuine.

( By the way, this is a great example for the questions of what makes the tabernacle sacred. Was it just a symbol or an in-rememberance or was God really in it. And if He was, in what way... etc...)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

While studying Romans it occurred to me to consider when it was written. Not by Paul who was only a Scribe writing what was revealed to him but from the author.
The author wrote it in his Word before Creation, perhaps even sooner.

Let's just consider the timeline between the birth of Jesus and the destruction of Israel in 70AD. It's hard for even the most hardcore Freewill believer to not see the predestination and election within that time frame.

Now let's zoom to Romans 9. It's mostly about individual elections. OK, so on to 10 and 11. God elected the Remnant by grace and not of works. His election is one of those mysteries that we as humans can't understand. We don't see any logic in it.

Now what Paul is conveying is that the same non-logic God uses to choose the genetic lineage and Remnant election is the same way God will elect the rest of physical Israel. It's the same mystery. 

It's the same non-logical way God chooses that we, as Gentiles, should not question. We should not be conceited about this way.
This is what Romans 11 is telling us. 

I don't know nor do I think it is revealed to exactly who or how many of the remaining Jews will be grafted back in. This will happen or perhaps it already has, after the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 

It's pretty clear in Romans 11 that the same God who is sovereign in Romans 9 is sovereign in Romans 11. 

We can't say that every time something bad happens to Israel it is the nation and every time something good happens to Israel it is spiritual Israel. 

There is nothing in Romans 11 that tells us it is spiritual Israel. It wasn't spiritual Israel that a remnant was elected from. It wasn't spiritual Israel that was blinded. It wasn't spiritual Israel that God was trying to make jealous. 
Therefore it isn't or won't be spiritual Israel that the mystery of the Gentiles being grafted into. It isn't spiritual Israel that we should be ignorant of the mystery of how all Israel will be saved after the fullness of the Gentiles come in. 

Think about it, how can it be spiritual Israel when the natural branches will again be grafted into their own olive tree!

Natural branches mind you, not wild Gentile branches. Romans 11teaches nothing but the grafting in again of these natural branches.

Think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it. When they, the natural branches, are grafted back in. 

Who doesn't think God can do this? As far as election is concerned, they(natural Israel) are loved on account of the patriarchs.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

We as gentiles were disobedient. We as gentiles have received mercy through their disobedience. So they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you.

This is natural Israel. Election is weird huh? We both receive salvation the same way, grace.

"For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

How unsearchable are God's judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
Again, why do we need this reminder? Why, because people are trying to use human understanding concerning God's election process. Paul "knew that people would try to say that God will never elect Israel as a nation again. Paul knew that man would come up with his own way of explaining how it all will go down.

We can't even understand Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all."

If we can't understand that then how can we understand or accept Romans 11:31?

"so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you."

There is a lot I don't understand but I do know who became disobedient


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## hobbs27 (Aug 5, 2016)

For the broken branches ( blinded) to be grafted back in they needed Faith. and they needed to get it fast because National Israel was about to be no more until 1948.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

They need the same faith we have. Where do you think this faith comes from? Read Roman 9 again it you are not sure.

Now concerning the hardening, has the fullness of the Gentiles come in? Did this happen before 70AD? 

You bring up a good point, did this happen prior to the destruction of Israel in 70AD? 

Did God's plan work in making the natural Jews jealous? Was the hardening lifted to allow them to be grafted back in before the destruction?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

I think this is a good explanation:

"He warns the Gentile branches not to boast against the Jewish branches that were cut off through their unbelief. Those branches are currently being "stored in water," kept moist for sovereign reinclusion at a later date."

"Paul provides the reason for the unnatural branches’ recent inclusion in the tree. Gentiles have been saved in order to provoke unbelieving Jews to jealousy."

"God’s cycle of evangelism is here laid out: Jews stumble in unbelief, therefore Gentiles respond to God, Gentiles provoke Jews, therefore Jews respond to God. A win/win situation is created, and God’s faithfulness to His covenant people is vindicated before the cosmos. The olive tree of Rom. 11:16-24 is the most detailed functional illustration in Scripture of the relationship of the Church to Israel and Gentile believers to Jewish believers."

From this link;

http://www.according2prophecy.org/51colleague.html


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

Deuteronomy 30:1-3
“And when all these things come upon you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you call them to mind among all the nations where the Lord your God has driven you, 2 and return to the Lord your God, you and your children, and obey his voice in all that I command you today, with all your heart and with all your soul, 3 then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have mercy on you, and he will gather you again from all the peoples where the Lord your God has scattered you.

This group here that God blessed and cursed by predestination, did he gather them again from where they had been scattered before or after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD?

" 5 And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, that you may possess it. And he will make you more prosperous and numerous than your fathers. 

Was this before 70AD? This group was blessed and cursed as set forth by God, was the blessing and cursing set forth by God? If it was, then it would stand to reason this sovereign God could and would let happen to this group as was prophesied.  
I'm not saying it didn't happen before 70AD, I'm just saying it will or did happen.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 5, 2016)

I don't understand why the Reformed who are all about election can't see this;

Jeremiah 31:31-34
31 “Behold, days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,” declares the Lord. 33 “But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days,” declares the Lord, “I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

God does not change his mind, he knows the future. 

Zechariah 8:23
This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

I do understand the spiritual seed of Abraham, but how can any reformed believer not see the physical seed. If God never changes and God was with the Jew, then he is with the Jew minus the temporary blinding.

This doesn't do away with election at all, it actually enhances it. It takes it to a higher level. Romans 11 tells us so. The remnant was elected. The rest were blinded. The Gentiles were grafted in to make the "rest" jealous. When the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, the "rest" will be elected individually just as the remnant was elected individually. Not based on merit as Paul states but grace. 

Malachi 3:6
"I the LORD do not change. So you, the descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.

I know what some will say. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. It's always been about "that" Israel.

Well if you can somehow convince me that is what Romans 11 is saying, I'm all with you. If not then all of Israel will be saved when the fullness of the Gentile comes in. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy. Salvation not by merit but mercy.

If God chose the remnant individually, chooses the gentile individually, why can't he choose Israel individually?


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## welderguy (Aug 6, 2016)

God's people were elected before the foundation of the world.

2 Timothy 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


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## hummerpoo (Aug 6, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well if you can somehow convince me that is what Romans 11 is saying, I'm all with you.



Scripture is God revealing Himself to His People, for His purpose, which is His glory.  Therefore, scripture properly interpreted shows God acting in accord with His clearly revealed attributes.  Faithfulness and immutability are clearly revealed.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> God's people were elected before the foundation of the world.
> 
> 2 Timothy 1:9
> 
> 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



And Jesus was slain before.....but He wasn't. The plan of salvation always was, and those 144,000, ie the remnant, ie the elect..were always part of the plan.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> God's people were elected before the foundation of the world.
> 
> 2 Timothy 1:9
> 
> 9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,



I never said they weren't. Romans was written be before the foundation of the world. As Hobbs mentioned, was not the Remnant called according to God's own purpose, before the foundation of the world? Was not the Remnant an elect chosen group of Jews? Romans 11 tells us it was. They were chosen for God's purpose, and the rest of Israel hardened, also for God's purpose.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Scripture is God revealing Himself to His People, for His purpose, which is His glory.  Therefore, scripture properly interpreted shows God acting in accord with His clearly revealed attributes.  Faithfulness and immutability are clearly revealed.



Was not the Remnant part of God's People, chosen for his purpose?  Did the Remnant not show the correct attributes of this election? Did Paul not tell us they were elected by grace and not merit?


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## Israel (Aug 6, 2016)

Is it Saturday morning in Heaven?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

If we look at the Olive Tree analogy that Paul shows we can see who God's people are by the limbs. They are Israel, Remnant(individuals chosen), and Gentiles. 

Can we say the tree has always had those limbs? Sure in Word we can. In the time line, no. Now in time the Israel limbs were broken off and the Gentile limbs were grafted in. In Word God never changes so his People are who he has chosen according to Romans 9. He is now letting his Word play out in time. The book was written before time and now it is being made into a movie so to speak.

Did Israel stumble so far that their limbs can't be added back? Never, says Paul. In fact Paul tells us that they will after the full number of Gentiles comes in. He tells us why the Gentiles were chosen to be added to the tree. To make Israel jealous.

If God can choose you from a totally depraved state to a regenerated elected child, not based on merit, he can certainly graft the Israel limb back on. He can certainly choose Israel(individuals chosen) based on grace and not merit. They will then be regenerated to show the correct attributes of a Christian elected before the foundation.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:18-19
For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens of the saints and members of God’s household, 

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

"Through the Gospel"

That's a little different from being called by the Holy Spirit without the gospel. Maybe it works both ways. 

Anyhow the Gentiles were without God and hope, strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel. The mystery was that  believing Gentiles are co-heirs and co-participants with Israel.

Always God's people, sure in Word, not time. God chooses before time and regenerates in time.


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## welderguy (Aug 6, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> If we look at the Olive Tree analogy that Paul shows we can see who God's people are by the limbs. They are Israel, Remnant(individuals chosen), and Gentiles.
> 
> Can we say the tree has always had those limbs? Sure in Word we can. In the time line, no. Now in time the Israel limbs were broken off and the Gentile limbs were grafted in. In Word God never changes so his People are who he has chosen according to Romans 9. He is now letting his Word play out in time. The book was written before time and now it is being made into a movie so to speak.
> 
> ...



Art,you continually confuse,inter-connect, and inter-mingle the two Israels(the nation and the chosen family of God).That's why Romans continues to cause you problems.
And the fact that you are not well grounded on the concept of election is another big reason it doesn't make sense to you.My 2 cents anyway.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Art,you continually confuse,inter-connect, and inter-mingle the two Israels(the nation and the chosen family of God).That's why Romans continues to cause you problems.
> And the fact that you are not well grounded on the concept of election is another big reason it doesn't make sense to you.My 2 cents anyway.



I agree, especially about election. It's a relatively new concept to my free will indoctrination. 

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

I can see election in Romans 9-11 and yet still, I can see free will in those same chapters. Using Ephesians 3:6 as an example, "through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs."

I know this is a little different from the Reformed view which doesn't require the gospel.
Yet I know everything was in Word from before the beginning. Also Paul goes back and forth between election and free will in Romans 9-11.

Paul says;
For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my people, those of my own race,

an again here;
Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

I'm not grounded enough in election to understand why Paul wanted and prayed for his country men's salvation if he understood salvation the way you(reformed) do. He had to know who the true children of God were by the reformed definition.

If Paul knew the children of God were the true Israel, why would he still be filled with anguish about his fellow country men? 
Why did Paul get so involved in Romans 11 about Israel being hardened to allow the Gentiles to be grafted in? To state further that this hardening of Israel was temporary? To further state that all of Israel would be saved? Even go so far as to say it was all done by election, the whole account was pre-planned and orchestrated by God for his purpose. 
Paul said just as we were made disobedient in order for to receive God's mercy, so will Israel. Do not be ignorant of this mystery. Part of the mystery is election. With election comes mercy. With election comes hardening. With election comes the grafting back in. This is what Romans 11 teaches. It's 100% election. That's why I don't understand why the reformed, of all people, don't see it. 

I don't believe ya'll are well grounded in understanding election at all. You are blinded by your indoctrination of election. Your dominational view of election doesn't allow God to have mercy on whom he will have mercy.

I on the hand wasn't raised in your Church. I'm more open to reading the Bible for myself since I have abandoned my demonational views.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(election?)

Romans 10:11
As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."
(election?)

Romans 10:13
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
(election?)

Romans 10:14
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
(free will? I think not.)

"But not all the Israelites accepted the good news."
(Why? They didn't have the free will to hear the message.)

But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did.
(uh-oh)

Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding."
(OK, they heard but they didn't understand.)

And Isaiah boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me."
(one can't seek and find?)

"But concerning Israel he says, "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people."
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.
God did not reject His people, whom He foreknew. 
(how can one read this and associate it with a group of saved gentiles or the Church or  spiritual Israel? The verses before and after are about physical Israel. Paul say's he is a descendant of Abraham(blood). Paul prays for the salvation of the descendants of Abraham(blood)? Why would Paul do this if there was no hope for the descendants of Abraham(blood)? One can't read Romans 9-11 and not see that Paul is teaching us about the descendants of Abraham(blood). How can one read this and deny that the natural(blood) branches won't be grafted back in? Why can't Israel be part of God's elect? Chosen not of works but mercy just as the Remnant was chosen?)

One can't pick and choose which verses are about physical Israel and which ones aren't within the same passage. It doesn't go back and forth. Are these passages inter-connected or inter-mingled?

The natural branches will be grafted back in by election, by mercy, by grace, and not of works. Why? Because that is the way God elects. Romans 9-11 tells us so.


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## welderguy (Aug 6, 2016)

The way I see it is like if I were to say "I pray that America would turn back to a more Godly way of living." It's a sincere statement,but it doesn't mean I'm praying against God's eternal purpose of whether or not each individual is elect.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 6, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> .





Artfuldodger said:


> ?





Artfuldodger said:


> .





Artfuldodger said:


> .





Artfuldodger said:


> .





Artfuldodger said:


> .


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## hummerpoo (Aug 6, 2016)

Israel said:


> Is it Saturday morning in Heaven?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 6, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


>



Wow, that's gotta be a record. I hope Centerpin Fan see this.


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## Israel (Aug 6, 2016)

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Wow, that's gotta be a record. I hope Centerpin Fan see this.



It's not that each item is incomprehensible.  It's that everything either ignores a basic tenant of understanding, or is contradicted, or confused, by another statement within the group.  So the cumulative effect , for me, was .

Brings to mind the character Griffin in MIB3, "Is this the one where ... ?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 7, 2016)

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."

Are you complete? Must YOU do as Jesus said here? 

Yes and No. You are complete if you are saved...and No you do not need to sell all your possessions and give to the poor...good lesson in audience relevance.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
> 
> Are you complete? Must YOU do as Jesus said here?
> 
> Yes and No. You are complete if you are saved...and No you do not need to sell all your possessions and give to the poor...good lesson in audience relevance.



I got you, Matthew 21:43 isn't addressed to me but still pertains to me. If I don't produce fruit, God will remove his kingdom from me.

I'm not the Gentile branches in Romans 11 that could be grafted in but could also be removed;

"take heed lest he also spare not thee."

Provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.(a stipulation?)
And if I do not persist in unbelief, I will be grafted in, for God is able to graft me in again.
(can I insert "I" or does in not pertain to me or not?)
(bible relevance?)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> It's not that each item is incomprehensible.  It's that everything either ignores a basic tenant of understanding, or is contradicted, or confused, by another statement within the group.  So the cumulative effect , for me, was .
> 
> Brings to mind the character Griffin in MIB3, "Is this the one where ... ?



Contradictions, yes from Paul, not me. Maybe I'm not the only one who sees this from Paul. Why, just in Romans 9-11 he goes from election to freewill and back to election. He goes from once saved always saved to one losing their salvation. Even Peter talks about Paul's teaching style.
There are countless articles about Paul vs Peter or Paul vs Jesus or Paul vs James.
I'm not the only one that sees this. Some Christians even question if Paul was an apostle. I mean he is way out there sometimes.

Romans 9, free will or predestination? I guess if I could just give up on free will completely my mind would be so much at rest. I am closer than I've ever been to reaching that goal. Change takes time.

I wonder If Paul understood that  everything was predestined? If he saw his own conversion as election then one would assume he does. But then why is he still trying to save his countrymen instead of just preaching to the people of God? Why does he mention the importance of spreading the gospel? Why does he say one only has to believe in Christ to be saved but only a remnant from Israel was chosen? 

Paul knows that  nothing depends on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy. That we can neither choose it nor work for it. Does he read his own writing?
Didn't Paul write and repeat scripture when he said;

God told Pharaoh, "I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth."
Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

I guess I need to go ahead and bite the bullet and admit defeat. Who am I to question God's ways and wisdom?
Who am I to try and figure out why God wrote a book before time and decided to make a movie later in time?

God had to write it to make it come out the way he wanted it to. He had to blind the Jews so that Jesus could die on the cross. He had to blind the Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. He has to save all Israel because he said he would. Paul tells us this is a mystery that we can't question.

It's all about it written here in Romans 11;

32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”35“Who has given so much to God, that God should repay him?” 36For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen. 

God blinded the Jews just like he hardened Pharoah. For his plan, his reason, his glory. He can save them all by mercy and not works for his glory. 
We were all consigned to disobedience for this same reason. God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

Is it possible Romans 11 was about the destruction of Israel and not eternal salvation? Can we separate bible stories into two different catagories? Eternal salvation and Earthly salvation? Earthly being a certain battle, Jerusalem, or Israel? 

Branches broken of in Romans 11? Did election stop at 70AD with the destruction of Jerusalem? Maybe by this time everything in Romans 11 had already occurred in time. God's election had stopped. His plan was over so predestination kicked in. 
He needed total control to make his plan play out from Adam sinning to Jesus dying on the cross. He needed to blind the Jews as he did Pharaoh for this to happen. He needed to harden the Jews to allow reconciliation to the world. To allow the fullness of the Gentiles to come in, save all Israel and then destroy Jerusalem. This Jerusalem is gone. The Romans 11 Jerusalem has been destroyed. This was a physical account of a certain chain of events that took place for the glory of God to unfold.

Branches re-attached. The fullness of the Gentiles came in and God re-attached the Israel branches. Paul's countrymen but now they were dispersed. Not the Israel the we think is physical Israel. Some of those in Jerusalem were warned to get out. Some of them were saved. The remnant was chosen first, then the rest were hardened until the fullness of the Gentiles cam in. This fullness came in and the rest were grafted back in. Then Jerusalem was destroyed.

Anyway does Romans 11 have anything to do with our salvation today? Bible relevance; Remnant chosen, Israel branches broken off, Gentiles grafted in to make Israel jealous, Gentile fullness comes in and all of Israel is saved. 
Maybe this is a different salvation. A physical one from the destruction of Jerusalem and not soul salvation.

We were saved by Jesus, Why does Israel need to be blinded so that we can be grafted in? We are already saved by the blood of Jesus.
So maybe this other salvation was physical. Think Jerusalem 70AD. 

Otherwise one could loose their spiritual salvation. According to Romans 11 one could be grafted in and removed. The Jews were and the Gentiles were warned by Paul.

Romans 11:21
For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

This goes against eternal salvation. The whole account goes against salvation by the blood of Jesus. It's like a different account for some other type of salvation. In the Romans 11 account Jews had to be hardened in order for Gentiles to be saved. In the spiritual salvation account, all it took was the blood of Jesus.
In the Romans 11 account, one can lose their salvation. In the spiritual salvation account, one has eternal salvation.

In the Romans account, all was orchestrated by God to make the destruction of Jerusalem come about. Even the salvation was controlled to a certain extent. One could still lose their salvation if they weren't careful. They could be cut off.

In the spiritual salvation account, you can't be cut off. You can believe in Jesus or not believe in Jesus. This account doesn't care about the Jews or Gentiles history. It doesn't take branches removed to allow other branches added. Branches can't be removed once attached.

In this account the branches are all individuals either elected by God or by Freewill.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 19:21 Jesus said to him, "If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me."
> 
> Are you complete? Must YOU do as Jesus said here?
> 
> Yes and No. You are complete if you are saved...and No you do not need to sell all your possessions and give to the poor...good lesson in audience relevance.



Or, If we possess for our own benefit that which God has given , we do not follow Christ ... good lesson in discipleship.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Contradictions, yes from Paul, not me.



So, Paul was led to create contradictions, which you must correct.  Is it Paul's fault or is it God's fault?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Or, If we possess for our own benefit that which God has given , we do not follow Christ ... good lesson in discipleship.



Are you saying you don't own any possessions that were given from God that you don't share? Have you given all of your possession, which God has allowed you to acquire away?

Then you see Matthew 19:21 as being written for present day disciples to follow?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> So, Paul was led to create contradictions, which you must correct.  Is it Paul's fault or is it God's fault?



I believe Paul, who was receiving divine intervention/prophesy, saw the contradiction of what was being revealed to him. Meaning he didn't understand all he was receiving from God. Sometimes he question the information he was receiving from God.

It's not Paul's fault or God's fault. Maybe there is no fault at all. why do we have to blame anyone? I would assume it's my fault for trying to understand the mystery being revealed in Romans 11:25-26 concerning Israel's  hardening and re-acceptance when God takes away their sin in verse 27.
Paul does understand that God will save all of Israel. Perhaps he does see a contradiction and thus gives us verses 31-34.

31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!
34“Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”

Paul knows God will save all of Israel as so do I. We are both maybe confused as to why. If there is neither Jew or Gentile and salvation is based on a belief in the blood of Christ, why would God have mercy and grant Israel election by mercy? Perhaps the same reason he has mercy on us and elects us.

I think what Paul is saying is that "all of Israel will be saved, just let the mystery be as to how God shows the mercy to do it."


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## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying you don't own any possessions that were given from God that you don't share? Have you given all of your possession, which God has allowed you to acquire away?
> 
> 
> Then you see Matthew 19:21 as being written for present day disciples to follow?



Read the context first; then, I'm sure you will want to discuss the max. net worth that has been established for entry into the Kingdom. 



Artfuldodger said:


> I believe Paul, who was receiving divine intervention/prophesy, saw the contradiction of what was being revealed to him. Meaning he didn't understand all he was receiving from God. Sometimes he question the information he was receiving from God.
> 
> It's not Paul's fault or God's fault. Maybe there is no fault at all. why do we have to blame anyone? I would assume it's my fault for trying to understand the mystery being revealed in Romans 11:25-26 concerning Israel's  hardening and re-acceptance when God takes away their sin in verse 27.
> Paul does understand that God will save all of Israel. Perhaps he does see a contradiction and thus gives us verses 31-34.
> ...



No further comment.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 7, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Or, If we possess for our own benefit that which God has given , we do not follow Christ ... good lesson in discipleship.



Scriptural support?


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## welderguy (Aug 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Scriptural support?



Eph.4:28
Acts 2:44-45
Acts 4:32
Phillipian Church
Luke 21:1-4

just a few of many


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## hobbs27 (Aug 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Eph.4:28
> Acts 2:44-45
> Acts 4:32
> Phillipian Church
> ...






> by hummerpoo  View Post
> Or, If we possess for our own benefit that which God has given , we do not follow Christ



 Ephesians 4:8 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.

 Can't make a connection there.

Acts 2:44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.

Not here..

Acts 4:32 Now the multitude of those who believed were of one heart and one soul; neither did anyone say that any of the things he possessed was his own, but they had all things in common.

Not here either..
 I'm really looking for that command that says we must give back what God has given.us.  Hummer says if we don't then we aren't following Jesus, so it must be a very important command.
 I can't even discern what it is that I may have that God didn't give me...I think everything I have has come from His blessings, so then am I to give it all away?   I'm not seeing that in scripture.


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## welderguy (Aug 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Ephesians 4:8 He who steals must steal no longer; but rather he must labor, performing with his own hands what is good, so that he will have something to share with one who has need.
> 
> Can't make a connection there.
> 
> ...



I didn't read that into what Hummer said.
I don't ever hear Jesus commanding us to give away our possessions but He tells us numerous times that if we do,we will be blessed in the doing of it.
He even said if we do it to any of His brethren,it's as if we did it unto Him.

To me,that's far more motivating than a command would be.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 7, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I
> I don't ever hear Jesus commanding us to give away our possessions



Thank you..maybe we all could use a lesson on context.


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## welderguy (Aug 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Thank you..maybe we all could use a lesson on context.



I don't think I understand what you mean.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 7, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Scriptural support?



Mat. 19:21
Mat. 22:39
Mat. 25:31-46
Mat. 6:19-34
Mat. 23:23
Phil 2:3,4
I'm confident there are more, but that should give the idea.

Please consider these passages, then read my statement again.



hobbs27 said:


> .
> 
> I'm really looking for that command that says we must give back what God has given.us.  Hummer says if we don't then we aren't following Jesus, so it must be a very important command.
> I can't even discern what it is that I may have that God didn't give me...I think everything I have has come from His blessings, so then am I to give it all away?   I'm not seeing that in scripture.



Why did He give you “everything” you have?
Is it more than you “need”?

About "everything", I don't see it in Mat. 19:21.
The command is "Love your neighbor ..."; that's what Jesus is getting at with the young man (the second Great Commandment).


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2016)

Maybe the whole parable of the rich man is teaching that there is not anything we can do to gain salvation. The rich young man ask Jesus what good things he must do to gain eternal life? Jesus, being in the capacity of a man, says "there is none good but one, that is, God, keep his commandments."

The young man was pretty good at keeping the commandments but he wasn't willing to give up his wealth to follow Jesus.

The disciples ask Jesus, if a rich man can't enter heaven who can?
Jesus says,  "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jesus was explaining that no one can keep all the commandments and no one can be righteous enough without God's intervention. 

What about Peter responding; "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"

I guess that is fine of itself but not if done for selfish reasons. Was Peter anxious to find out what his works would bring? 
I'm not really sure on this one but Jesus said;

"But many who are first will be last, and the last will be first."


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## hummerpoo (Aug 8, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Mat. 19:21
> Mat. 22:39
> Mat. 25:31-46
> Mat. 6:19-34
> ...



Sweetie and I were discussing the passage about the Rich Young Ruler this morning at breakfast and, when I told her what I had posted about vs 21, her response was, "Didn't you bring in The Great Commandment?"
(I love smart women, especially this one.)

She's right, of coarse.  When Jesus said "go and sell your possessions and give to the poor", the first phrase refers to his idolizing of his possessions, which violates The Great Commandment, while the second phrase refers to the second Great Commandment; obedience to the second being grounded in the first, loving God is logically first.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2016)

I wonder when the rich young ruler ask Jesus which commandments to keep, why didn't Jesus say the 1st & 2nd Great Commandment instead of;

Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"

Jesus didn't tell the rich young ruler;
 "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I'm assuming he didn't have the spiritual ability to not idol his possessions or the spiritual ability to help the poor.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe the whole parable of the rich man is teaching that there is not anything we can do to gain salvation. The rich young man ask Jesus what good things he must do to gain eternal life? Jesus, being in the capacity of a man, says "there is none good but one, that is, God, keep his commandments."
> 
> The young man was pretty good at keeping the commandments but he wasn't willing to give up his wealth to follow Jesus.
> 
> ...



Is this passage parable or narrative?  I think narrative.  When looking at parables one must be very careful to determine the point being made, and avoid inferring, from the details, more than was intended; while in narrative more than one valid point may be present.

While I would disagree with your characterization "the whole parable of the rich man is teaching that ...", I would agree that the teaching you highlight is validly drawn from the narrative, if that is the proper classification, and might be argued to be the main point, although I'm not sure it exhibits such a dominant position.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 8, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I wonder when the rich young ruler ask Jesus which commandments to keep, why didn't Jesus say the 1st & 2nd Great Commandment instead of;
> 
> Jesus replied, "'You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,
> honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"



Didn't He? — "If you love Me keep My commandments" (foregoing a discussion of Who is Who in what way).  The keeping of the listed commandments, while not the material of The Great Commandment, represents the necessary exhibition of The Great Commandment.  When he said "I do them", he was shown his error in vs 21.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 8, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Mat. 19:21
> Mat. 22:39
> Mat. 25:31-46
> Mat. 6:19-34
> ...




I see the conversation is staying with Matthew 19, so for the time being I am responding only to that.


Why did God give me everything I have? His Grace is the only answer because I deserve nothing, yet He blesses me every second I take a breath on this side of eternity.

Is it more than I need? So far, yes. Who knows what the future holds?

I know you don't see " everything "in Matt. This is why it's important to look over all the Gospels. They don't contradict, but compliment one another. Luke explains what Matt. Left out...

Luke 18:22New King James Version (NKJV)

22 So when Jesus heard these things, He said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell all that you have and distribute to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

I think this is a test of faith to the young man, not so much of keeping the great commandment...For it is by grace through faith that one is saved. Was this man willing to give up his worldy possessions to people he didn't know ( which giving to strangers to obtain something greater for yourself is not love, many people are falling for that today),  the young man was to turn away from the life he knew, give up his possessions and follow Jesus in His earthly ministry to be perfect...More than he was willing to do.
. Oh he of little faith... For He called God good, but when pressed as why, he failed to call the  Christ God.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Is this passage parable or narrative?  I think narrative.  When looking at parables one must be very careful to determine the point being made, and avoid inferring, from the details, more than was intended; while in narrative more than one valid point may be present.
> 
> While I would disagree with your characterization "the whole parable of the rich man is teaching that ...", I would agree that the teaching you highlight is validly drawn from the narrative, if that is the proper classification, and might be argued to be the main point, although I'm not sure it exhibits such a dominant position.



I agree the narrative could have a main point and secondary points. Maybe all the points are equal. 

I can see the point of the young man needing God to produce the fruits of the Great Commandment;

 The young man thinks it's something he can do. He thinks he can be good enough, righteous or perfect. 
Verse 26 let's us know that he can't;

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Jesus knew that the man could never live good enough to be perfect but decided to convince the young man why he wasn't good enough. 

The young man was blessed with riches but what are riches in an eternal world? Jesus said' OK, if you think you can work your way to heaven sell your possessions and give to the poor, then come and follow me. He was literally telling the young man to do that. To leave and follow him physically.

So there is a lot going on in the narrative such as faith, worshiping idols, sacrifice, and what it really takes to achieve eternal salvation from death.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 8, 2016)

This passage is a little harder;

Matthew 25:35-
35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and cloth You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’ 40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.

41Then He will say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave Me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, I was naked and you did not clothe Me, I was sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

 46And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

I don't even know how to look at this anymore. Jesus was trying to convince the rich young man that without God, it would be impossible to love thy neighbor. That no amount of works would make him righteous. 

So what is this passage telling us? I read about the separation of the sheep and goats but what I'm reading in this passage as to what separates the sheep from the goats is who performs the Great Commandments #1 & #2.

It says nothing of people being so bad that they can't love their neighbor. It says nothing of people gaining salvation by election, faith or believing. It says nothing of needing the Holy Spirit to even begin to love thy neighbor. 
The only criteria for the separation is based on who loves and helps God by loving and helping others.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 9, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> I see the conversation is staying with Matthew 19, so for the time being I am responding only to that.
> 
> 
> Why did God give me everything I have? His Grace is the only answer because I deserve nothing, yet He blesses me every second I take a breath on this side of eternity.
> ...



Thanks for finding my mistake on "everything".  I did review the complete passage in all three locations, but I should have done it twice.

Is there something that leads you to "people he didn't know" and "giving to strangers".  I would think that he would know, and know of, many poor people.


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## Israel (Aug 9, 2016)

Yeah Art, ain't that a trip?
Not one word about any sort of deep spiritual attainment through study or some sort of success in those things often found held forth as "necessary" to understanding Jesus Christ? Why, these folks didn't even know what they were "really" doing...when they did what they did. They may not even know the difference between exegesis and eisegesis.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 9, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> This passage is a little harder;
> 
> Matthew 25:35-
> 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’ 37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink?
> ...



Paul says it more succinctly (Rm. 2:13): "For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified."

The hearers of the law can do the things that the law says, but can they produce the heart that does the things of the law?  (Jer. 17:10) "“I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds." (Also Rev. 2:23)

As Paul points out (Rm. 3:1,2), the law is helpful on a temporal bases, but it creates no eternal result.

Like Israel said "these folks didn't even know what they were "really" doing...when they did what they did."


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2016)

Interesting concept of doing without knowing. I guess the Holy Spirit does take over. 

The bottom line then is sheep help people and goats don't. That fruit has to be there and it has to come from the heart.(Holy Spirit)

The folks helping others for show or personal gain are goats.

The sheep don't even realize they are helping and the goats realize it. 

Then I guess if I'm not helping, feeding, and visiting the poor(God), there is nothing I can do personally to force myself to do better. If the Holy Spirit isn't there, he just isn't there.

Can I at least pray for the Holy Spirit to take over or does he just do it on his own? What if one realizes he needs to help the poor and be a sheep? Sad that there is nothing "he" can do about it if God doesn't give him his Spirit to help the poor. 
Then again if one suddenly realizes he needs to help the poor, is he a goat? The sheep do it without realizing. They do it without knowing.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2016)

hummerpoo said:


> Thanks for finding my mistake on "everything".  I did review the complete passage in all three locations, but I should have done it twice.
> 
> Is there something that leads you to "people he didn't know" and "giving to strangers".  I would think that he would know, and know of, many poor people.



By calling a group out ( the poor) , it seems to take away any personal knowledge of any. It appears that it wouldn't matter which poor he gave to.

I think we will agree that it doesn't matter what he did with his possessions, not him or any of us can (do) something to obtain eternal life. The loving of the brethren is a fruit of salvation not a litmus test. It was his failure to answer Jesus question correctly as to,  ( Why call me good) ? Had he the faith, he would have answered," for you are He". ..had he the faith, he would have sold his possessions and followed Jesus.

But this young man was probably accustomed to the art of the deal. What else must I (do)..

Man has been asking this probably since the beginning... There is nothing one can do of themselves, but open the door when He knocks, take of the water of life freely given, and trust in the Lord. The loving part, that is natural, to the unnatural man.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 9, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting concept of doing without knowing. I guess the Holy Spirit does take over.
> 
> The bottom line then is sheep help people and goats don't. That fruit has to be there and it has to come form the heart.(Holy Spirit)
> 
> ...



Yes on both alternatives.

Rom 8:26  Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 
27  And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. 





> What if one realizes he needs to help the poor and be a sheep? Sad that there is nothing "he" can do about it if God doesn't give him his Spirit to help the poor.
> Then again if one suddenly realizes he needs to help the poor, is he a goat? The sheep do it without realizing. They do it without knowing.



Is there an important distinction between "knowing" and "really knowing"?  The former being of ourselves and the latter being of God thru His Holy Spirit.


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## hummerpoo (Aug 9, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> By calling a group out ( the poor) , it seems to take away any personal knowledge of any. It appears that it wouldn't matter which poor he gave to.



I don't see that at all; and, although that reading leads to a place that I believe scripture does not lead, it remains a non-essential.



> I think we will agree that it doesn't matter what he did with his possessions, not him or any of us can (do) something to obtain eternal life. The loving of the brethren is a fruit of salvation not a litmus test. It was his failure to answer Jesus question correctly as to,  ( Why call me good) ? Had he the faith, he would have answered," for you are He". ..had he the faith, he would have sold his possessions and followed Jesus.



Yes, we are close on that.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2016)

The rich young man did address Jesus as teacher. I wonder why Jesus didn't tell him he was God?
So what you are saying is if the rich man was one of the elect, he would have known that Teacher was Jesus who is God?
At the very least if he was a Christian, he would know that he couldn't work his way into Heaven. He would also know the he couldn't seek God or salvation. He would have already had the Holy Spirit to produce the fruit of helping the poor.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2016)

I'm wondering when one is elected or becomes a Christian by free will does he need to know that Jesus is God?

If so and back to the rich man, would he still know that Jesus was God since Jesus had not been glorified yet? Did every saint or newly regenerated person know that at that moment of conversion that Jesus is God either before or after his glorification?
Maybe the glorification of Jesus doesn't have any bearing on this revealing that Jesus is God.
Could it be the Holy Spirit upon entering a lost person conveys that Jesus is God?

Is knowing that Jesus is God a criteria for knowing God?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 9, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> The rich young man did address Jesus as teacher. I wonder why Jesus didn't tell him he was God?
> So what you are saying is if the rich man was one of the elect, he would have known that Teacher was Jesus who is God.
> At the very least if he was a Christian, he would know that he couldn't work his way into Heaven. He would also know the he couldn't seek God or salvation. He would have already had the Holy Spirit to produce the fruit of helping the poor.



Had he been of the elect, his ears would have heard, his eyes would have seen. 

Matt 16 13 When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?”

14 So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

15 He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 9, 2016)

16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. 

Jesus said "My FATHER" has revealed to you that I am Christ.
Regardless it took the Father to let Peter see who he was.
Scripture doesn't let us know if Peter saw Jesus as God at that point. We only know God revealed that Christ was his Son.
                                                                                                     Later Peter denies Christ which was also of divine intervention. This shows that even the elect can be hardened for the purpose of God's plan. Think Israel(elect), hardened temporarily for God's purpose. 

I agree in that I don't believe the rich young ruler was one of the elect unless he was and just hadn't been called yet.


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> 16 Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
> 
> 17 Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven.
> 
> ...



I believe he was one of the elect,because Mark 10:21 says that Jesus loved him.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

"unless he was and just hadn't been called yet."

He had not received the regeneration that would have allowed him to understand. To see Jesus as the Son of God.


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> "unless he was and just hadn't been called yet."
> 
> He had not received the regeneration that would have allowed him to understand. To see Jesus as the Son of God.



Elect people are elect,even before they are called.Agree?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> I believe he was one of the elect,because Mark 10:21 says that Jesus loved him.



The more I understand about the doctrine of election the more errors I see in it.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

True, but at the time he called Jesus teacher, wasn't he still depraved or at least so blind that he could not see?
He had not been "awakened" yet.

I wonder why Mark was the only version that says Jesus loved him?


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The more I understand about the doctrine of election the more errors I see in it.
> 
> John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.



Errors with the doctrine?
Or errors in your understanding of it?

John 3:16 is not an invitation,as many think,but rather a declaration.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Errors with the doctrine?
> Or errors in your understanding of it?
> 
> John 3:16 is not an invitation,as many think,but rather a declaration.




So a sign for all to read that says, Jesus loves you! Is misleading many that read it?

If so, then that is an error in the election doctrine.


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> So a sign for all to read that says, Jesus loves you! Is misleading many that read it?
> 
> If so, then that is an error in the election doctrine.



Jesus never said He loved every individual.Only those whom the Father hath given Him.
The elect.

If He loved every individual,tell me how a successful Savior could let any perish,whom He bought and paid for their sins in His own body on the cross?


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

When we look at the sheep and goats separation, we read of a kingdom prepared for the sheep since creation.
Then we read that the sheep are the ones who help the poor, feed the poor, clothe the poor, and in doing so do this to Jesus.

Does this helping the poor which was also mentioned the rich young ruler should also do, have any bearing on our salvation?
By helping the poor, we are in fact performing the two great commandments. When we love our brother(feed the poor) we are also loving God through these acts of love.

How would one say it all ties together as election and/or one choosing God. In other words whether God chooses us or we choose God, does one become a sheep by helping others?
Does one help others to become a sheep, or does one become a sheep and start helping others?

Wouldn't helping the poor be the proof of salvation?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Jesus never said He loved every individual.Only those whom the Father hath given Him.
> The elect.
> 
> If He loved every individual,tell me how a successful Savior could let any perish,whom He bought and paid for their sins in His own body on the cross?




Therein lies the big problem. The election doctrine teaches that Jesus only died for those that didn't need a sacrifice....they were already chosen. 

 Spare me with the " Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world"... He was in the Fathers plan only, but He hung on a cross around 30-33 ad. Until that atonement was made no man had been to heaven, but the one that came down from heaven...no man could be in the Fathers presence until that original sin could be atoned.

Election doctrine takes hope out of the Christian faith. Christ died that all people could be saved...knowing that all would not take of the water of life He freely gives, He did make a way.

Election is essentially the same doctrine JW's have on the 144 000.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

Hobbs, I thought you believed God elected the remnant chosen by grace?

Romans 11:5-7
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,  8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, I thought you believed God elected the remnant chosen by grace?
> 
> Romans 11:5-7
> 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.  6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace. 7What then? What Israel was seeking, it failed to obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,  8as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
> ...




Yes. The wheat, the elect, the 144,000, the remnant,the sheep, the lost sheep,etc... Were all the Bride in which consummated the wedding...or brought in the New Covenant in its fullness.

The plan was from the beginning...the Father chose a bride for His son....now that marriage is creating new children of God.


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Therein lies the big problem. The election doctrine teaches that Jesus only died for those that didn't need a sacrifice....they were already chosen.
> 
> Spare me with the " Jesus was slain from the foundation of the world"... He was in the Fathers plan only, but He hung on a cross around 30-33 ad. Until that atonement was made no man had been to heaven, but the one that came down from heaven...no man could be in the Fathers presence until that original sin could be atoned.
> 
> ...



The elect have been possessors of grace before the foundation of the world.(before any covenants were ever made)

2 Tim.1:9-10 says so.

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:


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## hobbs27 (Aug 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> The elect have been possessors of grace before the foundation of the world.(before any covenants were ever made)
> 
> 2 Tim.1:9-10 says so.
> 
> ...



Yes, They were part of God's plan from the beginning, but no one knew eternal life till Christ died on the cross for it.


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes. The wheat, the elect, the 144,000, the remnant,the sheep, the lost sheep,etc... Were all the Bride in which consummated the wedding...or brought in the New Covenant in its fullness.
> 
> The plan was from the beginning...the Father chose a bride for His son....now that marriage is creating new children of God.



The remnant were chosen by grace. The bride had to make herself ready. 

I'll start a new thread to discuss the bride of Christ.


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## welderguy (Aug 11, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> Yes, They were part of God's plan from the beginning, but no one knew eternal life till Christ died on the cross for it.



No.It wasn't just part of His plan,the verse says grace was  actually given before the world began.(outside of time)

The existence of it was then manifested(brought to light) by the appearing of Jesus Christ.(in time)


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## Artfuldodger (Aug 11, 2016)

welderguy said:


> No.It wasn't just part of His plan,the verse says grace was  actually given before the world began.(outside of time)
> 
> The existence of it was then manifested(brought to light) by the appearing of Jesus Christ.(in time)



Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.


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## Israel (Aug 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> So a sign for all to read that says, Jesus loves you! Is misleading many that read it?
> 
> If so, then that is an error in the election doctrine.



If it is believed, how can it mislead?


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## welderguy (Aug 12, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.



Colossians 1:21

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Notice,we were enemies in OUR minds,not God's.

We were given grace before the world began.
Don't let the covenants cause you to stumble.God has always had His purpose for His elect.Always.


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> Colossians 1:21
> 
> 21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
> 
> ...



They were enemies in THEIR minds. We aren't them. There is no longer Jew nor Greek, Through grace by faith all races of man are made God's children.


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## welderguy (Aug 12, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> They were enemies in THEIR minds. We aren't them. There is no longer Jew nor Greek, Through grace by faith all races of man are made God's children.



We also were enemies toward God(in our minds)...before He made us new creatures at regeneration.That's when OUR minds changed,not His.

Oh,but I forgot,you don't believe we today are regenerated,so (in your mind) this wouldn't apply to you either,huh?


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## hobbs27 (Aug 12, 2016)

welderguy said:


> We also were enemies toward God(in our minds)...before He made us new creatures at regeneration.That's when OUR minds changed,not His.
> 
> Oh,but I forgot,you don't believe we today are regenerated,so (in your mind) this wouldn't apply to you either,huh?




 We are very fortunate to not be born into the old covenant of sin and death..that we would require being born again into the covenant of grace and eternal life.

 John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


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