# Jehovah's Witness beliefs



## applejuice (Oct 11, 2011)




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## rjcruiser (Oct 11, 2011)

That video is way off.  Everyone knows Jesus had long hair.


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## hummdaddy (Oct 11, 2011)

i think i am one of the chosen few


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## hummdaddy (Oct 11, 2011)

i think i am one of the chosen few


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 14, 2011)

Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

John 1:1   the Word was God   (JW's bible translators changed this verse, citing a spiritist's interpretation, and now reads ..."the Word was A god" )

Acts 1:11 - Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. 


John 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails...  (at least showing there was more than one nail used in anchoring Jesus' hands)

lol     so many scriptural errors in their beliefs...not to mention the back-and-forth flip-flop changes in their doctrines over the years.     The August 1968 prophecy ("Why are you looking forward to 1975?"  August 1968 Watchtower) that the millennial reign of Christ would begin "in the fall of 1975" was probably one of their biggest failures.   Most of today's younger Witnesses aren't aware of this, as it's been swept under the rug.   If Witnesses read this same article, and substitute '2016' everywhere the article mentions 1975, they will get the meaning the Watchtower was trying to convey.


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## Mako22 (Oct 15, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
> 
> John 1:1   the Word was God   (JW's bible translators changed this verse, citing a spiritist's interpretation, and now reads ..."the Word was A god" )
> 
> ...



In 1975 while they were making their claims the JW leadership was buying stock on the stock market up to and including the day of the supposed begining of the kingdom?


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## germag (Oct 15, 2011)

I guess talking someone else's beliefs down is the Christian thing to do. I'm not JW, nor Baptist, nor Methodist, nor Buddhist, nor Holiness or Lutheran.....but I respect the next guy's belief system. If the only thing you have to say for yourself is something bad about someone else, you dont have much to say for yourself.


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## bullethead (Oct 16, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
> 
> John 1:1   the Word was God   (JW's bible translators changed this verse, citing a spiritist's interpretation, and now reads ..."the Word was A god" )
> 
> ...



Seems like the JW's do what every other denomination does....change a word here, add a word there, tweak the doctrine a bit. Glass Houses.....


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## germag (Oct 16, 2011)

bullethead said:


> seems like the jw's do what every other denomination does....change a word here, add a word there, tweak the doctrine a bit. Glass houses.....



+10


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2011)

germag said:


> I guess talking someone else's beliefs down is the Christian thing to do. I'm not JW, nor Baptist, nor Methodist, nor Buddhist, nor Holiness or Lutheran.....but I respect the next guy's belief system. If the only thing you have to say for yourself is something bad about someone else, you dont have much to say for yourself.



Really?





germag said:


> SLAM!!!
> 
> That's hilarious. Katie just showed how truly stupid and ignorant she really is..... Truly representative of all liberals.





germag said:


> It would really be kind of funny...if it wasn't so sad. If these brain-dead liberals would just listen to what Ms. Rice said in that interview...really listen....they would probably understand. Well, at least I'm sure some of them would have the mental capacity to understand. But they don't...they're all just like Katie.....instead of listening, they're thinking about the next idiotic question or comment they're going to come out with. If she wasn't so stupid she would have realized after about the second question that she was thoroughly defeated and any further questions along that line would do nothing more than further prove that she had no idea what she was talking about. She really should be completely embarrassed. If I was her I don't think I'd be able to show my face in public again....but she's too stupid to realize what an idiot she made of herself and every other liberal moron she "represented".






germag said:


> Yeah, but that idiot doesn't even have enough brains to realize that she got beaten like a drum in that interview. I'd be willing to be that she thinks she did just fine.





germag said:


> You know, that's sort of the point that these liberal idiots just don't seem to have the mental capacity to grasp. We KNOW FOR A FACT that Saddam had used WMDs against the Kurds. We KNOW for a fact that he was in the process of trying to rebuild his WMD arsenal, including nuclear weapons....and we KNOW for a fact that he had a propensity to use them. That is plenty of just cause for going in and finding out by whatever means was necessary. What we couldn't know for sure was just how far along in the process of rebuilding he was. These morons keep saying that Bush lied about the intel...that is just not the case. He and his advisors made decisions based on the intel that they had. Saddam had not allowed free and complete inpections for years.....that raises flags too. How in the world are we supposed to know positively what he has or doesn't have unless we go in and look? The only way he was going to allow us to go in and look was by force. So be it. As Condi said in the interview, the world is a much, much better place without him. That, in and of itself, was plenty of reason to go in. We absolutely made the right decision to go into Iraq and were completely justified in doing so.





germag said:


> Yeah, but liberal weenies know everything....don't bother them with facts, their minds are made up.



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=590090&highlight=


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## jkk6028 (Oct 16, 2011)




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## NCHillbilly (Oct 16, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And all that has exactly what to do with religious beliefs? He didn't say anything about tolerance and respect of horribly misguided political views.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2011)

NCHillbilly said:


> And all that has exactly what to do with religious beliefs? He didn't say anything about tolerance and respect of horribly misguided political



Outstanding double standard.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 16, 2011)

This movie is produced by those in opposition to JW's. I think that some of it is a misrepresentation. I resent the fact that how they tried to make the JW version of Jesus look. Every religion I know of could have a movie made against them that would look this same way. The athiest are laughing about that.


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## germag (Oct 16, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And your point? That has nothing at all to do with respecting someone's religious beliefs and not talking about it behind their backs like a bunch of gossiping old women at a hen party. I respect the right of every muslim in the world to believe the Koran or whatever doctrine they choose....what I do not respect is any right they may think they have to conduct terrorist strikes on any innocent person nor the right of any liberal weenie to defend that, and as far as I'm concerned if your are not against them (terrorists) with every fiber of your being and all for going and killing every one of them by whatever means necessary, you are on their side.  There is no in-between. They declared war on US, not the other way around. I stand by everything I have said...go dig up some more if you have nothing better to do with your time. Your post is meaningless anyway.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2011)

germag said:


> And your point? That has nothing at all to do with respecting someone's religious beliefs and not talking about it behind their backs like a bunch of gossiping old women at a hen party. I respect the right of every muslim in the world to believe the Koran or whatever doctrine they choose....what I do not respect is any right they may think they have to conduct terrorist strikes on any innocent person nor the right of any liberal weenie to defend that. I stand by everything I have said...go dig up some more if you have nothing better to do with your time. Your post is meaningless anyway.



I think I struck a nerve.

My point is that nobody here is talking about JW's the way you talk about Christians and liberals.  Four Christians responded to this thread and none of them referred to JW's as morons, idiots, stupid or brain dead.  And nobody referred to them as:



germag said:


> ... a bunch of gossiping old women at a hen party.


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## CAL (Oct 16, 2011)

Easy folks! Best take your disagreements to PM's and not the open forum.This is not allowed!


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## germag (Oct 16, 2011)

Sorry, Cal. I'm done with this garbage thread anyway.


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## stringmusic (Oct 17, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I think I struck a nerve.
> 
> My point is that nobody here is talking about JW's the way you talk about Christians and liberals.  Four Christians responded to this thread and none of them referred to JW's as morons, idiots, stupid or brain dead.  And nobody referred to them as:



 

I'm not sure Germag knows what apologetics means. I'm not sure why he/she thinks this is a "garbage thread" because we are discussing the believe system of JW's? 

Germag, I'm not sure if you read this forum much or not, but this is exactly what this forum is for.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Outstanding double standard.



lol   x2    discussing others' beliefs is why we are here.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Seems like the JW's do what every other denomination does....change a word here, add a word there, tweak the doctrine a bit. Glass Houses.....



JW's aren't a 'denomination'.    They will tell you that themselves.    JW's will tell you that their WAY is the only way; no other church or religious organization offers 'salvation' apart from the Watchtower.

Mainstream Christianity (most all denominations) push faith in Christ alone.     

"change a word here"    lol     true to form, Bullet.


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> JW's aren't a 'denomination'.    They will tell you that themselves.    JW's will tell you that their WAY is the only way; no other church or religious organization offers 'salvation' apart from the Watchtower.
> 
> Mainstream Christianity (most all denominations) push faith in Christ alone.
> 
> "change a word here"    lol     true to form, Bullet.



Yep, you guys keep setting 'em and I'll keep spiking 'em.

All of us have an idea about how one another will respond, we all have our own tendencies. Don't for a second think you don't have a "form" and stray from it...


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> JW's aren't a 'denomination'.    They will tell you that themselves.    JW's will tell you that their WAY is the only way; no other church or religious organization offers 'salvation' apart from the Watchtower.



Do they believe in Christ? Are they Christians?


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## stringmusic (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Do they believe in Christ? Are they Christians?



I cant answer the second question as I don't know much about their believes, but believing in Christ and having a relationship with God through Christ are two very very different things.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Do they believe in Christ? Are they Christians?



I'm glad the judging won't be left to me....


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I cant answer the second question as I don't know much about their believes, but believing in Christ and having a relationship with God through Christ are two very very different things.



Well of course YOUR version is the "right" one....that is universally understood.
Could you break that down into which are the "REAL" Christians and which ones only think they are? Which denominations just believe in Christ and which ones have a relationship with God through Christ?


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'm glad the judging won't be left to me....



Leapfrog.........perfect form.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Well of course YOUR version is the "right" one....that is universally understood.
> Could you break that down into which are the "REAL" Christians and which ones only think they are? Which denominations just believe in Christ and which ones have a relationship with God through Christ?



You keep trying to put JW's into a denomination.   They are exclusive, Bullet.    'Normal' Christian denominations don't exclude salvation from other denominations.   (i.e.   Baptists still believe Methodists are saved, and visa-versa)  JW's are a whole different sect.


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

They will come around....The Catholics used to exclude everyone else from salvation too.
Imagine growing up until @ 1965 and attending 2 Sunday schools(Catholic and Protestant) where it was taught in each that the other was going to end up in h3ll.


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*New World Translation - John 1:1c - "and the Word was a god."*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> ....John 1:1   the Word was God   (JW's bible translators changed this verse, citing a spiritist's interpretation, and now reads ..."the Word was A god" )....



Regarding Jehovah's Witnesses' "New World Translation" Bible and its rendering of John 1:1, it may interest you and others here to know that, in support and explanation of their wording of this verse (especially within the third clause with "a god"), there is soon to be published a 19+ year study (as of 10/2011), a thoroughly researched reference work - an historical analysis & exhaustive annotated bibliography - it will be entitled, "What About John 1:1?"

To learn more of its design and expected release date, you are invited to visit:

Good Companion Books

When finally published, apart from discussing many of the other topics and scriptures often related to the man-made Trinity doctrine, you will also discover that we have collected information on about 430+ scholarly reference works (mostly Trinitarian) which, throughout the centuries, had opted to say something other than, "and the Word was God," and that, included among them are over 120 which had chosen to use "a god" within the third clause of their renderings.

As you might expect, we are very excited at the opportunity to share our findings with others.

Agape, JohnOneOne.

[P.S.-Since this work will not be finished for publishing until the end of 2012, this is not an advertisement for its sale. Otherwise, we believe you will find some other useful information in the way of the links also offered on this webpage.]


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks, John!   I look forward to reading through it, and seeing how JW doctrines like 'Jesus being an angel', the 1914 prophecy and the 1975 prophecy are discussed.     

Hopefully, unlike the translators of the New World Translation, the authors of this book will give their names, so their credentials can be checked.


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## stringmusic (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Well of course YOUR version is the "right" one....that is universally understood.
> Could you break that down into which are the "REAL" Christians and which ones only think they are?


Whaa??? I never said or indicated that I could answer any of the above.



> Which denominations just believe in Christ and which ones have a relationship with God through Christ?



There are many people, Atheist, Agnostics, Buddhist, Islamic, that "believe in Jesus". The difference comes into play when one has a _relationship_ with Christ, that is and was the point I was making.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

interesting read on John 1:1

http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/what-about-john-11/


no definite 'article a' in original greek.


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Whaa??? I never said or indicated that I could answer any of the above.
> 
> 
> 
> There are many people, Atheist, Agnostics, Buddhist, Islamic, that "believe in Jesus". The difference comes into play when one has a _relationship_ with Christ, that is and was the point I was making.



So it is an individual thing?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

not just believing that He walked the earth, but...

confessing Him as Lord, and believing that God raised Him from the dead.    Romans 10:9

This is the minimum to be a 'saved' Christian.   

When it comes to JW's, it is my 'hope' that, even though they believe weird stuff about Jesus, and believe that one has to be hooked up with the Watchtower association to even be qualified for eternal life, they will be saved...by believing that God raised Jesus from the dead.    That, though, is up to God.

Faith in Jesus is absolute.    Believing that He was a person that lived and walked around Galilee isn't enough.


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> not just believing that He walked the earth, but...
> 
> confessing Him as Lord, and believing that God raised Him from the dead.    Romans 10:9
> 
> ...



Then they are Christians...saved and all.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ro/chapter_010.htm


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Then they are Christians...saved and all.
> http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/ro/chapter_010.htm



Exactly what I stated....they very well could be.    They, on the other hand, exclude everyone else, unless you're under the Watchtower umbrella.


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*John 1:1c - "a god" is Warranted.*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> [1]interesting read on John 1:1
> 
> http://mikeratliff.wordpress.com/2011/07/19/what-about-john-11/
> 
> ...



1. Yes, interesting indeed.  What you would not know is that I've attempted a number of times to post a reply to this persons critique, and each time they are never permitted to go thru.

2. First of all, the "article a" is not a "definite" article, it is indefinite.

Secondly, the reason why "in original greek" there is "no [in]definite 'article a'" is simply because the Greek of this period did not have nor use "indefinite" articles, they didn't exist.

Therefore, the things which determine whether our English indefinite article "a" is to be used here are:

The Greek Grammar

The Immediate Context

The Context of John's Gospel

The Cultural Context of the Jewish People.

After giving consideration to each of these, many qualified scholars  have correctly concluded that John 1:1c is certainly warranted to read:

"and the Word was a god."

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

I'd like to read your rebuttal....     Perhaps you could post it here?


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## stringmusic (Oct 17, 2011)

bullethead said:


> So it is an individual thing?





BANDERSNATCH said:


> *not just believing that He walked the earth, but...
> 
> confessing Him as Lord, and believing that God raised Him from the dead.    Romans 10:9*This is the minimum to be a 'saved' Christian.
> 
> ...



Thanks Bandy! This is the point I was making.


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*Who will be 'saved'?*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> Exactly what I stated....they very well could be.    They, on the other hand, exclude everyone else, unless you're under the Watchtower umbrella.



From a section within the 2008 Watchtower, Nov. 1, p. 28, under the heading, "Our Readers Ask," there was this question: "Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Believe That They Are the Only Ones Who Will Be Saved?"

Apart from other comments, it opens with:

"Jehovah’s Witnesses think that they have found the true religion. If they did not think so, they would change their beliefs. Like adherents of many religious faiths, Jehovah’s Witnesses hope to be saved. However, they also believe that it is not their job to judge who will be saved. Ultimately, God is the Judge. He decides.—Isaiah 33:22."

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*No thank you.*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'd like to read your rebuttal....     Perhaps you could post it here?



No thank you, as I do not believe there could be anything I would present that would change your mind,...as that, to me, has already been demonstrated.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

JohnOneOne said:


> No thank you, as I do not believe there could be anything I would present that would change your mind,...as that, to me, has already been demonstrated.
> 
> Agape, JohnOneOne.



That shouldn't matter.   There may be others who would benefit, too.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

JohnOneOne said:


> Ultimately, God is the Judge. He decides.—Isaiah 33:22."



Glad it's up to Him.


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*In Search for 'Truth'?*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> That shouldn't matter.   There may be others who would benefit, too.



If there are any others here who are sincerely in search for 'Truth,' then I would suggest that you contact Jehovah's people in your area, that is, in order to start your own journey on the path to everlasing life. (Matthew 7:13, 14; John 17:3)

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## bullethead (Oct 17, 2011)

It all sounds so similar.


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## stringmusic (Oct 17, 2011)

Johnoneone, I'll be honest, I am not going to contact a JW in my area. I am however, interested in your beliefs. I would love for you to stick around and fill us in on any misconceptions we may have and to have a great discussion.


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## stringmusic (Oct 17, 2011)

JohnOneOne said:


> If there are any others here who are sincerely in search for 'Truth,' *then I would suggest that you contact Jehovah's people in your area, that is, in order to start your own journey on the path to everlasing life*. (Matthew 7:13, 14; John 17:3)
> 
> Agape, JohnOneOne.
> Good Companion Books



Would I have to contact a JW in my area to be able to start that journey?


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## hummdaddy (Oct 17, 2011)

isn't it the only chosen 300,000 or something like that are saved for JW...what about the rest of you ?


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## Huntinfool (Oct 17, 2011)

We're in BIIIIIIG trouble.


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*Getting Answers About Jehovah's Witnesses*



hummdaddy said:


> isn't it the only chosen 300,000 or something like that are saved for JW...what about the rest of you ?



Such questions, if sincere, are certainly worth addressing.

Here's a good place to start in getting some answers:

http://www.watchtower.org/e/archives/index.htm

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 17, 2011)

*What do Jehovah's Witnessses believe about...*

Regarding some of the topics listed at the Index of Subjects offered at Jehovah's Witnesses Official Website, the following are but a few that might be of some interest to different ones here:

Do You Know The Truth?

Is There One True Religion?

An Inheritance You Can Count On

Are Jehovah’s Witnesses a Protestant Religion?

Why Does God Allow Us to Suffer?

Why Use God’s Name if Its Pronunciation Is Uncertain?

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## jwb5557 (Oct 17, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> not just believing that He walked the earth, but...
> 
> confessing Him as Lord, and believing that God raised Him from the dead.    Romans 10:9
> 
> ...



"believe that one has to be hooked up with the Watchtower association to even be qualified for eternal life"

Where do you get your info from?  Hooked up with???  The Watchtower is a mag that comes every month.  You dont have to be "hooked up" with this in order to be saved.  Just like other religions you have to belive!  By the way theres another mag that comes too its called The Awake so if you have to be hooked up with one you better be hooked up with the other!!!


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## jwb5557 (Oct 17, 2011)

My mother rasied me in this religion and I can say that I havent followed it or even can say I have a true understanding about everything there is or know everything.  I can tell you that I'm 35 years old and have been through a lot in my life and the past few years I have been missing something in my life and I think its sprital.  I have asked god  many times over the past 10 years or so to please guide me and show me a sign that I'm picking the right religion.  I swear to you every time I have asked I have been given a sign that leads me to him.  It has come in differnt ways but every time it has happend I've gotten goose bumps and wanted to cry and I knew it was from him.  Just like this thread!!!  Every time I ask he's there!!!  Well thanks for starting this thread who ever you are because of you and me sitting here writing this I think I have now what has been missing.  I'll be going to the Kingdom Hall very soon!!!!


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## hummdaddy (Oct 17, 2011)

JohnOneOne said:


> Such questions, if sincere, are certainly worth addressing.
> 
> Here's a good place to start in getting some answers:
> 
> ...



(144,000 ) google is my friend 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000_(number)


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

jwb5557 said:


> "believe that one has to be hooked up with the Watchtower association to even be qualified for eternal life"
> 
> Where do you get your info from?  Hooked up with???  The Watchtower is a mag that comes every month.  You dont have to be "hooked up" with this in order to be saved.  Just like other religions you have to belive!  By the way theres another mag that comes too its called The Awake so if you have to be hooked up with one you better be hooked up with the other!!!



The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society.   lol       In the Watchtower world, faith in Jesus isn't enough.   You have to be part of God's theocratic organization.   Their own literature says that if you only read the bible, you will apostatize.    

I agree


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 17, 2011)

hummdaddy said:


> (144,000 ) google is my friend
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/144000_(number)



140000 of the 12 tribes of Israel.    JW's hold the figure to be accurate, but not that they are of the 12 tribes.   

James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.     

James apparently thought there were 12 tribes.


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## bullethead (Oct 19, 2011)

Anyone have a 10ft pole that they wanna touch any of this with?


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## stringmusic (Oct 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Anyone have a 10ft pole that they wanna touch any of this with?



I think Johnoneone would have to come back and participate in the discussion for it to be interesting.


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## bullethead (Oct 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I think Johnoneone would have to come back and participate in the discussion for it to be interesting.



Yeah, I wonder where he went? I was hoping for his personal answers instead of the common FAQ from a website.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2011)

From what I understand they believe they are the 144,000 witnesses/elect in revelations. ...and of course I could be far off the mark on that. That 144,000 are Jews that will witness to the Jews (and possibly others???) after the rapture. The Jews were blinded to Christ to graft us/gentiles in, so they will be enlightened by the 144,000.

The JW's are very kind and nice when they come recruiting and I think it takes a lot of love for Christ to go door to door and probably many times get the door slammed in their face. They are doing what they believe Christ wants them to do.....the great commission.

The JW's are into a lot of works also.

I don't have anything bad to say about them and I don't mind them coming to my door, I invite them in and tell them that they can tell me what they believe and I'll tell them what I believe...then they ask me if I'm saved and when I say yes, they just say well can we just pray together (skip the sunday school lesson)....they pray just like we do...and then they are gone.

I don't know enough about their doctrine to know if there is anything salvation rendering in what they believe or not.
I hope they are saved.


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 19, 2011)

*144,000 not all natural Jews*



BANDERSNATCH said:


> 140000 of the 12 tribes of Israel.    JW's hold the figure to be accurate, but not that they are of the 12 tribes.
> 
> James 1:1 - James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
> 
> James apparently thought there were 12 tribes.



Are the 144,000 mentioned in Revelation 7:4-8 made up of only natural Jews?

These cannot have reference to the tribes of natural Israel for 1) there never was a tribe of Joseph, 2) the tribes of Ephraim and Dan are not included in the list here, and 3) the Levites were set aside for service in connection with the temple but were not reckoned as one of the 12 tribes. 

When comparing this list with that found in Numbers 1:4-16, these differences become apparent.

Then, when also considering what the Apostle Paul says about who now, from God's view, the Jews really are (Romans 2:28, 29 & Galatians 3:26-29), it is clear that, when speaking about them, something other than being born of the flesh is what now identifies them.

Now, with respect to what James says at James 1:1, because we are of the opinion that the Bible does not contradict itself, we take his words to be in harmony with the fulfillment of the prophecy stated at Jeremiah 31:31-32, 

“'Look! There are days coming,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”

Furthermore, at Romans 9:22-26 we read:

If, now, God, although having the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, tolerated with much long-suffering vessels of wrath made fit for destruction, in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory, namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, [what of it]?  It is as he says also in Ho‧se′a: “Those not my people I will call ‘my people,’ and her who was not beloved ‘beloved’; and in the place where it was said to them, ‘YOU are not my people,’ there they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”- (Hosea 2:23; 1:10).

And, just one more thing - If readers here find that, in spite of the evidences/reasoning I've presented, there is still is something of which they cannot agree to, that's fine.  But, at least you might see from this that, when it is that we take a position on such an issue, it has not been without Scriptural basis.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## JohnOneOne (Oct 19, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> ...The JW's are into a lot of works also....



'Faith without works is dead.' <- Please click on link.

Agape, JohnOneOne.
Good Companion Books


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## MoonPie (Oct 20, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
> 
> John 1:1   the Word was God   (JW's bible translators changed this verse, citing a spiritist's interpretation, and now reads ..."the Word was A god" )
> 
> ...



Well they're doing what Christ did, going door to door. Take guts. Did you know they were the first one's there at the site of 911, with heavy equiptment to help. Three of them were actually first responding firefighters who lost their lives. Unspoken hero's in my eyes, who show love for their fellow man, and show it by the way they live. As far as their beliefs go, it looks to me that they do their best to follow the Bible, and as far as mistakes go, they freely admit that they are not inspired. When they are at my door, and I pull out the old King James it's purdy much all the same cept theirs is in plain english.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 20, 2011)

JohnOneOne said:


> Now, with respect to what James says at James 1:1, because we are of the opinion that the Bible does not contradict itself, we take his words to be in harmony with the fulfillment of the prophecy stated at Jeremiah 31:31-32,
> 
> “'Look! There are days coming,' is the utterance of Jehovah, 'and I will conclude with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant; not one like the covenant that I concluded with their forefathers in the day of my taking hold of their hand to bring them forth out of the land of Egypt, ‘which covenant of mine they themselves broke, although I myself had husbandly ownership of them,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.”



So, you're saying that James was not actually addressing literal Jews when he mentions "to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad"?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 20, 2011)

MoonPie said:


> As far as their beliefs go, it looks to me that they do their best to follow the Bible, and as far as mistakes go, they freely admit that they are not inspired. When they are at my door, and I pull out the old King James it's purdy much all the same cept theirs is in plain english.



You think it's pretty much the same, because you don't know the differences.   John 1:1 (the actual scripture) is a great example of the differences.   There's a big difference in thinking that Jesus was "a god" or "THE GOD".

Also, the Watchtower B&T Society has never (that I know of) admitted their failures, especially when it comes to failed prophecy.   (e.g.   The 1968 prediction that the 1975 would bring the return of Christ)


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 20, 2011)

MoonPie said:


> . As far as their beliefs go, it looks to me that they do their best to follow the Bible, and as far as mistakes go, they freely admit that they are not inspired.



They do claim to be inspired.    In the April 1st 1972 Watchtower, pg 197 in the article titled "They Shall know that a prophet was among them", they make the following claim...

These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? … This prophet was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah’s Christian witnesses. … Of course, it is easy to say that this group acts as a prophet of God. It is another thing to prove it. The only way that this can be done is to review the record.

JW's claim that their organization is the only channel to God existing today.   God's THEOCRATIC organization. 

I agree; the record should be reviewed.     "Why are you looking forward to 1975?"   1968 Watchtower


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## MoonPie (Oct 20, 2011)

Dude, before I could even answer your post re Jn 1:1 you really blasted them again and again. Are you mad at them. They just donate their time studying the Bible with people. And do their best to live by it. 

Anyway heres the post re 1:1:

So many translations have a different slant on Jn 1:1, because of the way we interpret the Greek word the-os' (God)in sentence structure. When it point to an identity its one thing. When it points to a quality, its another.

The KJ does read Jn 1:1 "the Word was God". There are other translations; New English Bible "what God was, the Word was". Moffatt version "the Logos was divine".  American translation & Authentic New Testament "the Word was devine". The Emphatic Diaglott "a god was the Word".

I always, bein human when I get a bit confused while studying the Bible, read on and let the Bible translate itself. In the book of John as I kept reading to see how Jesus, from his own words, describes himself; Jn 17:3 states "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent".  And 20:17 "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father and your Father; and to my God, and your God".

As far as I know Jesus and other Bible writers never claimed him to be God, but said that he was the son of God. A position far superior to any other except one.

I love Jesus. Love what he did for us with deep appreciation. I pray thru him and try to imitate him. Here's another quality sorely lacking in the world today - He was also mild tempered and humble.


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