# Abraham's salvation?



## Artfuldodger (Jul 14, 2017)

The only way is to believe Christ died for our sins. Abraham was promised the Seed.
Did he know who the Seed was?

Perhaps since if you know the Father, you know the Son and if you have seen the Son, you have seen the Father.

In that respect Abraham had faith in God. He had salvation even if he had to wait on the event in time of the Seed coming. 

Isaiah 61:10
I am overwhelmed with joy in the LORD my God! For he has dressed me with the clothing of salvation and draped me in a robe of righteousness. I am like a bridegroom in his wedding suit or a bride with her jewels.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 14, 2017)

Maybe Jesus being the only way is more in depth than we know.

People throughout time perhaps knew differently than through teaching. Maybe God's revelation of his Son presented differently in time before the Cross than after. 

Maybe not. It might have always been that God must lead one to Jesus and one must know Jesus to know God.

Perhaps the timing of events aren't as important after all at ending divisions. Maybe everyone already knows who God is.

Maybe they have already had their iniquities forgiven.

Maybe we no longer have to teach. Perhaps we never did.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 14, 2017)

John 8:56-58
56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.” 57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

When did Abraham see this day? Is this more of that "out of time" stuff or did he have to actually wait until the Cross?

John 8:51-52
Truly, truly, I tell you, if anyone keeps My word, he will never see” death. 52“Now we know that You have a demon!” declared the Jews. “Abraham died, and so did the prophets, yet You say that anyone who keeps Your word will never taste death.

Did Abraham really have to wait in "time" and actually experience death? Did he have to wait on the event of the Cross to experience it or did he transcend time at his physical death and experience his eternal spiritual life? 
Seeing, learning, and experiencing Christ at the moment he died a physical death.

John 8:58
“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

Perhaps Abraham saw Jesus even earlier than at his physical death. Maybe  the day of Messiah “preexisted,” so to speak, in Abraham’s mind. 
Was it by faith Abraham saw the Messiah’s coming in advance of its actual arrival in an out of time sort of way?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 15, 2017)

Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.

How could Abraham had eternal life before eternal life had been made?   It took Jesus living a sinless life,  being persecuted,  and making Himself a sacrifice, so He could be the author of eternal life.

Jesus became the source of eternal life through the death,  burial,  and resurrection.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jul 15, 2017)

Abraham was the man of faith. He believed God's promises as fact. OT saints were commended for having faith. Believing that God's word was as good as if it had already happened. "And the word became flesh" [became to pass]. Jesus's statement, "before Abraham was born, I am", was not a claim of pre existence in the literal, but pre existed "in word". Issac was called Abraham's first born son yet we know he was second to Ishmael. This is because God promised Issac first. This concept of pre existing "in word", and believing it as fact before existence is key to the OT


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 15, 2017)

1gr8bldr said:


> Abraham was the man of faith. He believed God's promises as fact. OT saints were commended for having faith. Believing that God's word was as good as if it had already happened. "And the word became flesh" [became to pass]. Jesus's statement, "before Abraham was born, I am", was not a claim of pre existence in the literal, but pre existed "in word". Issac was called Abraham's first born son yet we know he was second to Ishmael. This is because God promised Issac first. This concept of pre existing "in word", and believing it as fact before existence is key to the OT



Then the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World is of this same concept? We'll call it the Word or mind of God.
Did this concept of preexistence give salvation even before Christ became the perfect High Priest at a future event in time?

Regardless of if Jesus pre exisited in Heaven as a spirit instead of just Word.
Even if he pre existed, he wasn't a High Priest yet. He wasn't a man yet. He hadn't died on the Cross for our sins yet.

Did people who believed by faith and/or grace have eternal life granted to them at the moment of their physical death? Granted eternal life is given to someone when they are converted but it doesn't show up as such until they die a physical death.

It just seems like if they had to wait until the Cross, then they didn't technically receive eternal life as they were dead within a part of it.


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## hummerpoo (Jul 16, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> John 8:56-58
> 56Your father Abraham was overjoyed to see My day. He saw it and was glad.” 57Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and You have seen Abraham?” 58“Truly, truly, I tell you,” Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!”
> 
> When did Abraham see this day? Is this more of that "out of time" stuff or did he have to actually wait until the Cross?
> ...



Or, to say it another way, "I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people."


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## Israel (Jul 16, 2017)

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you...

But "of what" is that ordination...it is said in previous verse:

but with the precious blood of Christ, _a lamb without blemish or spot._

A precious brother used to be fond of reminding that growth in the Kingdom is precisely contrary to natural growth. In the natural, lambs grow up to be sheep, in the Kingdom...different.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 16, 2017)

1Peter 1: This letter is from Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ.

I am writing to God’s chosen people who are living as foreigners in the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 2 God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 These foreigners in the land of Gentiles are Diaspora.  Peter is writing to the 10 lost tribes of Israel.  

May God give you more and more grace and peace.

3 All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation, 4 and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. 5 And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see.

  Did you catch that?  They had been born again.. They had an inheritance waiting on them. They had a salvation that was about to be revealed to them... In the last day.. Which they were on the doorstep of the last day. 

6 So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials for a little while. 7 These trials will show that your faith is genuine. It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world.

8 You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. 9 The reward for trusting him will be the salvation of your souls.

10 This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. 11 They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward.

12 They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen. So this salvation that was about to be revealed was not for the prophets that foretold of it.. They didn't even understand it,  but it was for those first century Christians,  and it was about to come,  even the angels were on the edge of their seats looking on in eager anticipation


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## gordon 2 (Jul 16, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.
> 
> How could Abraham had eternal life before eternal life had been made?   It took Jesus living a sinless life,  being persecuted,  and making Himself a sacrifice, so He could be the author of eternal life.
> 
> Jesus became the source of eternal life through the death,  burial,  and resurrection.



Jesus, the word, for His role as Messiah is not the source of eternal life. Jesus was before his role as Messiah and the source of eternal life then also... Jesus becomes the source of eternal life, post the cross, for those who knowing only idols could not know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. In other words Jesus is the source of eternal life for sinners-- the hopelessly lost. Jesus is what Paul needed, for example, but also what the Greeks and the Romans needed. Paul's righteousness was false before he met Jesus and the Greeks and the Romans well they had their own gods--many knowing nothing of eternal life.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 16, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the World is of this same concept? We'll call it the Word or mind of God.
> Did this concept of preexistence give salvation even before Christ became the perfect High Priest at a future event in time?
> 
> Regardless of if Jesus pre exisited in Heaven as a spirit instead of just Word.
> ...



Art, just check the references to eternal life in the Old Testament.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 16, 2017)

It is no secret what God can do, what He done for others, He'll do for.... sinners?.



PS. The guy in the white shirt with the green yellow palm branch decal... don't he look like he could fire a right jab with purchase and without telegraph! If he's right handed, I can only wonder what power is in it.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 16, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Jesus, the word, for His role as Messiah is not the source of eternal life. Jesus was before his role as Messiah and the source of eternal life then also... Jesus becomes the source of eternal life, post the cross, for those who knowing only idols could not know the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. In other words Jesus is the source of eternal life for sinners-- the hopelessly lost. Jesus is what Paul needed, for example, but also what the Greeks and the Romans needed. Paul's righteousness was false before he met Jesus and the Greeks and the Romans well they had their own gods--many knowing nothing of eternal life.



Scripture says different.  It says Jesus,  God's Son was qualified through His sufferings,  and only after that.. Not before.. Became the source  of Salvation to all those that obeyed Him... Not just sinners. 

"8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him."


 Remember at the transfiguration the voice in the cloud said,  " Listen to Him"


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## gordon 2 (Jul 16, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Scripture says different.  It says Jesus,  God's Son was qualified through His sufferings,  and only after that.. Not before.. Became the source  of Salvation to all those that obeyed Him... Not just sinners.
> 
> "8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him."
> 
> ...



It does not say He was qualified due suffering, it says he learned obedience  from what he suffered.  I agree that it qualified him as the perfect High Priest and that he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 

Jude 1:25

All glory to him who alone is God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord. All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.


 If you must agree with scripture, why not agree with all of it?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 16, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> It does not say He was qualified due suffering, it says he learned obedience  from what he suffered.  I agree that it qualified him as the perfect High Priest and that he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.
> 
> Jude 1:25
> 
> ...



I do.. Jude doesn't contradict that eternal life was made possible only after His sufferings on the Cross.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 16, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I do.. Jude doesn't contradict that eternal life was made possible only after His sufferings on the Cross.



I don't think that it does either. Jude is saying that God the Father deserves the glory for being our saviour through Jesus. 
All glory, majesty, power, and authority are his before all time, and in the present, and beyond all time! Amen.

Jesus may well have been eternal but this verse isn't saying that since Jesus is God, then to believe in God is to believe in Jesus. It doesn't make what Jesus did on the Cross supersede the cross by saying that Jesus is God.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary
25. To the only … God our Saviour—The oldest manuscripts add, "through Jesus Christ our Lord." The transcribers, fancying that "Saviour" applied to Christ alone, omitted the words. The sense is, To the only God (the Father) who is our Saviour through (that is, by the mediation of) Jesus Christ our Lord.

Even if Jesus is God and eternal, it still took "through Jesus" as a mediator.
You can't take the mission/plan of Jesus out of time as if he didn't do anything just because he existed with God the Father as the Word.. Otherwise he would not have needed to come to the earth and die on a cross to do what he did.


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## Israel (Jul 17, 2017)

Grace is the manifestation of what is already there to a thing ready in contradiction of it.

Grace may be seen in the God whose word alone is final, willing to repeat Himself.


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## welderguy (Jul 17, 2017)

Israel said:


> Grace is the manifestation of what is already there to a thing ready in contradiction of it.
> 
> Grace may be seen in the God whose word alone is final, willing to repeat Himself.



Truth, brother.


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## welderguy (Jul 17, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I do.. Jude doesn't contradict that eternal life was made possible only after His sufferings on the Cross.



Faith goes ahead to lay hold on salvation.

It is not just mere hope of it, but rather the substance of it. That thing that is the concrete foundation (sub-stance) of it.

Abraham had this substance.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Faith goes ahead to lay hold on salvation.
> 
> It is not just mere hope of it, but rather the substance of it. That thing that is the concrete foundation (sub-stance) of it.
> 
> Abraham had this substance.



 Great!  Then Abraham could be granted eternal life after Jesus was qualified by the Father as the source of eternal salvation.  

Until then,  he rested in Sheol with the hope that the Messiah would come and the Messiah's voice would raise him from the death he was resting in,  to grant him eternal life.  Hear Him!.


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## welderguy (Jul 17, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Great!  Then Abraham could be granted eternal life after Jesus was qualified by the Father as the source of eternal salvation.
> 
> Until then,  he rested in Sheol with the hope that the Messiah would come and the Messiah's voice would raise him from the death he was resting in,  to grant him eternal life.  Hear Him!.



You're not understanding me. I'm saying Abraham had it while he lived, by faith. He had eternal life dwelling in him while he walked on this earth, through faith. Faith can do that, and it does. It hasn't changed since Abel had it even to today when you and I have it. It's the same faith brother.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You're not understanding me. I'm saying Abraham had it while he lived, by faith. He had eternal life dwelling in him while he walked on this earth, through faith. Faith can do that, and it does. It hasn't changed since Abel had it even to today when you and I have it. It's the same faith brother.



I'm understanding you.  I just don't know where you are getting that idea since it is contrary to all the scriptures we have looked at.

Maybe you can explain the nature of eternal life in a dead man?


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## j_seph (Jul 17, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him. 10 And God designated him to be a High Priest in the order of Melchizedek.
> 
> How could Abraham had eternal life before eternal life had been made?   It took Jesus living a sinless life,  being persecuted,  and making Himself a sacrifice, so He could be the author of eternal life.
> 
> Jesus became the source of eternal life through the death,  burial,  and resurrection.


Which bible are you quoting? Sorry but KJV just seems a little more powerful

<sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Who  in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and  supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to  save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
 <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
 <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


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## hobbs27 (Jul 17, 2017)

j_seph said:


> Which bible are you quoting? Sorry but KJV just seems a little more powerful
> 
> <sup class="versenum">7 </sup>Who  in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and  supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to  save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
> <sup class="versenum">8 </sup>Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
> <sup class="versenum">9 </sup>And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;



 Its the Holy Bible,  I think I copied and pasted from the NLT version because it's easier for some to understand.  Either way,  it translates the same.

I like the KJV also, used with concordance... But I don't think we're suppose to discuss our opinions of that topic here,  so that's all I'll say about that.


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## welderguy (Jul 17, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm understanding you.  I just don't know where you are getting that idea since it is contrary to all the scriptures we have looked at.
> 
> Maybe you can explain the nature of eternal life in a dead man?



I sure can. It's called quickening. Abraham was quickened (Rom.4:17).


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## hobbs27 (Jul 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> I sure can. It's called quickening. Abraham was quickened (Rom.4:17).



17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

So Abraham had faith in God that raises the dead to life... It doesn't say Abraham was raised.  In fact if you continue on in Roman's 5, we see that death reigned from Adam... But as the author writes at the end of Roman's 5.  Now ...IE at that present time grace ruled giving them eternal life. 

21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


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## welderguy (Jul 17, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
> 
> So Abraham had faith in God that raises the dead to life... It doesn't say Abraham was raised.  In fact if you continue on in Roman's 5, we see that death reigned from Adam... But as the author writes at the end of Roman's 5.  Now ...IE at that present time grace ruled giving them eternal life.
> 
> 21 So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.



So you would have me believe that a spiritually dead person is able to believe by faith and remain spiritually dead with no change? And that he can have imputed righteousness?


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## hobbs27 (Jul 17, 2017)

welderguy said:


> So you would have me believe that a spiritually dead person is able to believe by faith and remain spiritually dead with no change? And that he can have imputed righteousness?



 Adam had faith in the day he died spiritually... He was disobedient but he had faith.  Adam brought sin into the world and that sin ruled until the Cross when grace came to town. 

You and I are saved by that grace brought to us by the deeds of our Lord and Savior at Calvary.... Until Calvary Abraham was still a dead man with imputed sin. Awaiting our redeemer to loose him from the bondage of sin and death.

Faith alone does not save... But grace through faith.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 17, 2017)

Hebrews 2:10
God, for whom and through whom everything was made, chose to bring many children into glory. And it was only right that he should make Jesus, through his suffering, a perfect leader, fit to bring them into their salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 17, 2017)

Acts 5:31
Then God put him in the place of honor at his right hand as Prince and Savior. He did this so the people of Israel would repent of their sins and be forgiven.

Matthew 1:21
She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."

Savior? Can we change the scriptural meaning of what Jesus became on the Cross? Even if he was prophesied to become our savior? Can we bestow that title on Jesus even before God the Father did?

"He will save his people."

"Jesus became the Savior."

When did he do this? When he lived a perfect life as a man and suffered, as a man, on the Cross.

Luke 24:26
Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and then to enter His glory?"


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## hobbs27 (Jul 17, 2017)

Daniel 12:2New Living Translation (NLT)

2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace

The Old Testament saints did/will receive everlasting life only after the resurrection.
The others everlasting disgrace... But either way they receive/d it at the Resurrection after the Cross.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 18, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Daniel 12:2New Living Translation (NLT)
> 
> 2 Many of those whose bodies lie dead and buried will rise up, some to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting disgrace
> 
> ...



Is Everlasting Life the same thing as Eternal Life? Is not Everlasting Life an item in reference or pertaining to the body? and Eternal Life differently it is an item of the spirit of man, pertaining to the spirit?

I have always assumed perhaps incorrectly that these two items were very different. One concerned the resurrection of the body and the other the born again spirit ( mind, emotions, motivation, the heart which is from above) of the individual.

To eternal life we share in the life of God. To everlasting life the body is cured of the curse of death-decay.

????


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Is Everlasting Life the same thing as Eternal Life? Is not Everlasting Life an item in reference or pertaining to the body? and Eternal Life differently it is an item of the spirit of man, pertaining to the spirit?
> 
> I have always assumed perhaps incorrectly that these two items were very different. One concerned the resurrection of the body and the other the born again spirit ( mind, emotions, motivation, the heart which is from above) of the individual.
> 
> ...



I can't reason why there would be a difference.  If offered eternal life or everlasting life,  does one sound more appealing than the other? 

As for spiritual or physical life and death... What scripture do you base an eternal spiritual,  physical dead... But then physical life meets spiritual eternal life once again?


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2017)

I've had a similar thought in reading scripture about salvation. Sometimes it reads like physical salvation such as for a city about to be invaded by the Roman army and sometimes it reads like spiritual salvation from eternal death.

Parallels if you may.

Perhaps the same parallels with the eternal live and everlasting life. One physical and one spiritual.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 18, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I can't reason why there would be a difference.  If offered eternal life or everlasting life,  does one sound more appealing than the other?
> 
> As for spiritual or physical life and death... What scripture do you base an eternal spiritual,  physical dead... But then physical life meets spiritual eternal life once again?




The difference , which I understand now ( which might be incorrect), is that all will resurrect to everlasting life  and the last judgement, but not all will know eternal life or they will have rejected God in their lifetimes, which is the same thing and so their fate will be different than those who have cleaved to God in this life.

Concerning death. My understanding of physical death is in spiritual context.  Spiritually death is due to the fall. That is I don't spiritualize it to mean spiritual death. In this case for me it means physical death or death of the body. ( If fallen man was to have everlasting physical life on earth well -- we and all of creation would be in a bigger pickle that we are now...etc)

So I'm suggesting that Adam and Eve had both everlasting life and eternal life originally. They lost physical everlasting life ( death of the body) but maintained eternal life. Some of their offsprings managed to hold on to eternal life, or life with the Father ( Noah, Abraham et al), but many lost this relationship with time. Some even had high places to unknown gods... They were not partakers of the divine, they did not have eternal life itself.


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> The difference , which I understand now ( which might be incorrect), is that all will resurrect to everlasting life  and the last judgement, but not all will know eternal life or they will have rejected God in their lifetimes, which is the same thing and so their fate will be different than those who have cleaved to God in this life.
> 
> Concerning death. My understanding of physical death is in spiritual context.  Spiritually death is due to the fall. That is I don't spiritualize it to mean spiritual death. In this case for me it means physical death or death of the body. ( If fallen man was to have everlasting physical life on earth well -- we and all of creation would be in a bigger pickle that we are now...etc)
> 
> So I'm suggesting that Adam and Eve had both everlasting life and eternal life originally. They lost physical everlasting life ( death of the body) but maintained eternal life. Some of their offsprings managed to hold on to eternal life, or life with the Father ( Noah, Abraham et al), but many lost this relationship with time. Some even had high places to unknown gods... They were not partakers of the divine, they did not have eternal life itself.



Gordon, I would like you to read this.  Posted in a study group I participate in by JL Vaughn. 

JL is a mathematician and studies ane text and culture.  Agree with him or not,  I'm sure you will gain something from it. 

What was Adam's death?

Adam was promised the death for eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil.  What kind of death was it?

Some say this death was physical death.  Some say this death was spiritual death.  And some say this death was spiritual death followed by physical death 900-some years later.

Physical Death:

Some believe Adam was created immortal, that, had Adam not sinned, he would never die.  Does this make any sense?

Before Adam sinned, he had to eat to live.  

Adam was told to name the animals.  He named the lion "does violence" and the hawk, "tears flesh."  (Those who will protest this need to consider that their argument also applies to naming the woman.)

Some will claim that Eden had different physics.  That Eden was safe.  Yet, several places, we are told, were like Eden, or like the garden in Eden.  Genesis 13:10.  Eden was in our physical world.

And Adam lived some 900 years after he sinned.  We have a saying, "Justice delayed is Justice denied."  Or as Solomon wrote, "Because the sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil."  Ec. 8:11.  Dying 900-some years after the event is not punishment for his crime.

If physical death was God's intended punishment, then the serpent was correct when he said, "You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."  When they ate, "the eyes of both of them were opened."  If physical death was Adam's death, then the serpent told the truth and God was the liar.  But the serpent was the liar and God told the truth.  Adam died, the type of death God intended, in the day he ate.  That death was not physical death.

Spiritual Death:

For those who say spiritual death, what is this spiritual death they talk about?  A common answer is, "Separation from God."  What is that?

Was Abel separated from God?  Abel appeared to have a fine relation with God, until his brother killed him.  "Enoch walked with God."  Was he separated from God?  "Noah was a just man, perfect in his accounts. Noah walked with God."  Was Noah separated from God?  They were all dead in Adam, for Romans 5:14 tells us, "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned [as Adam had sinned], ..."

What really drives this idea of "spiritual death" is the interpretation that "natural" (in 1 Cor. 15:44-46) means "physical" and "spiritual" means "non-physical."  (And because of this confusion, "non-physical" often means "other physical.")  Adam's death wasn't physical death, therefore, it must have been non-physical death.  That tells us what Adam's death isn't, not what it is or was.

Adam's death was not "separation from God."  Spiritual death provides no answer to the question, What was Adam's death?"

What was Adam's Death?

To understand Adam's death, we need to look at what Adam was given, what was taken away, and what Christ restored.

1. Luke 3:38 tells us that Adam was a son of God.  As Jesus was the only begotten Son, this suggests that Adam was adopted.

With that Adam was given all the things a rich man would have been expected to provide an adopted son:

2. The image of the Father.

3. The breath of life.

4. Land and wealth.

5. Work to do.

6. And a wife.

And how do we know these were lost?

1. The sons of the son are also sons of the father.  Adoption into Christ is one of the themes of the New Testament.  Adoption would not be needed, unless somewhere along the line, they ceased being sons.  Adam's death in Genesis 3 fits.

2. In Genesis 5:3, Seth was in the image of Adam, not the image of God.  The son was in the image of the father.  In the New Testament, Jesus was in the image of God and we are to be conformed to that image.  Without Christ, we don't have the image.  Somewhere the image was lost.

(A whole theology has developed concerning the image of God.  This theology is not based on Scripture, but is based on the assumption that all humans have the image and animals don't.  I prefer to use Scripture, not vain philosophy to determine what Scripture means.)

3. In John 20:22, we see Jesus giving the disciples, the breath of life.  Theologians have argued that the breath of life is what gives physical/biological life to all living creatures.  But is that what it really means?  Scripture also has God's breath.  Is Scripture physically alive?  God's breath doesn't give physical/biological life.  It gives some other sort of life.

In Polynesian cultures, when a child is born, the father breathes the breath of life into his child.  Literally he blows in the baby's face.  Does this have physical significance?  No.  It is a declaration by the father that the child is his.  When God gives the breath, He is showing what is His.

4. When Adam was thrown out of the garden, his land and wealth were given to another.  In Rev. 20-21, we are given a city with streets of gold.  The wealth is restored in Christ.

5. Adam's work increased.  Is. 65:23 shows what this increase was.  Adam became a servant.  He was no longer working for himself.  Eve was no longer producing sons of God.  Instead Adam was working for his Master and Eve was producing more servants.  In the New Heaven and New Earth this would be restored back to how it was in the garden, 

6. Adam got to keep his wife.  But she also lost everything and became a servant.

Adam lost all those things.  Christ restored them.

The son was dead.  The son became a servant.  This was Adam's death.

Adam's death, on the day he ate, was not physical death.  It wasn't spiritual death.  God's adopted son, lost his adoption and became a servant.  Those "in Adam," from that point forward were servants of God.  Those "in Christ," are sons of God.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 18, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Gordon, I would like you to read this.  Posted in a study group I participate in by JL Vaughn.
> 
> JL is a mathematician and studies ane text and culture.  Agree with him or not,  I'm sure you will gain something from it.
> 
> ...



Interesting. 

Yet, this is where my mind goes:

 Rev: 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.
------------------------------
We serve an awesome God, and He serves us, and He says uncomfortable  stuff like this:

 John 6:53  Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
--------------------------
In the account where God would have the life of the Adam and Eve limited, He gives reason. Gen 3:22-24


Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"


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## hobbs27 (Jul 18, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> Then the LORD God said, "Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!"



Whatever death Adam endured in the garden.  Jesus has replaced.  It couldn't be physical death because physically we still die. 

Notice.  God prevented Adam from taking of the tree of life by banishing him from its presence... Jesus brought us back into its presence, that we may have eternal life. 


What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> We serve an awesome God, and He serves us, and He says uncomfortable  stuff like this:
> 
> John 6:53  Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.



How did Abraham eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood having died before Jesus shed the blood for him to consume?
My guess is by the promise. Abraham promised to drink it when it became available.


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 18, 2017)

Question: "What is the meaning of the tree of life?"

Answer: The tree of life, mentioned in the books of Genesis and Revelation, is a life-giving tree created to enhance and perpetually sustain the physical life of humanity. 

https://www.gotquestions.org/tree-of-life.html

Perhaps Adam was promised spiritual death for eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil. He died spiritually when he ate from that tree.

With the knowledge he gained from eating from that tree, he learned that he needed to eat from the "Tree of Life" to gain everlasting physical life.

Then again what kind of everlasting and/or eternal life did he have to begin with?


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## Israel (Jul 19, 2017)

There is no burden in sleep.
Time passes unnoticed without its demands to make choices, or even seek beneficial or fear detrimental consequences to each.

Being awake and alive to God is the fulfillment of all promise of rest.

"and their deeds follow with them..."


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## hobbs27 (Jul 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did Abraham eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood having died before Jesus shed the blood for him to consume?
> My guess is by the promise. Abraham promised to drink it when it became available.



The blood of the New Covenant.


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## gordon 2 (Jul 19, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did Abraham eat the flesh of Jesus and drink his blood having died before Jesus shed the blood for him to consume?
> My guess is by the promise. Abraham promised to drink it when it became available.



Good question. I wonder if it was the case when he broke bread with the king of salem melchizedek? You know the king  Abraham gave tithes to?

I really don't know. Abraham's passover... hum? Most likely the food and drink that is the body of the Lord must be consumed in faith for it to be real and what I get with Abraham and the king breaking bread was that both lived, understood and were motivated by faith, each recognizing in the other God with them.

The breaking of bread is akin to the breaking of the Lord's body on the cross and was similar in motivation Abraham's breaking from his isolation to save Lot. It is perhaps our greatest witness of God through a man of faith. Perhaps.

Ezekiel 34:2 (ASV) Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel, prophesy, and say unto them, even to the shepherds, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Woe unto the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves! should not the shepherds feed the sheep?

Prov 18:1 A man who isolates himself seeks his own desire;
He rages against all wise judgment.

 Prov 18:24 A man who has friends must himself be friendly,*
But there is a friend who sticks closer than a brother.

Psalm 81-10 I am the LORD your God, who brought you up out of Egypt. Open wide your mouth and I will fill it.*


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