# "This child is a Christian"



## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2015)

Is this a ridiculous statement any more so than "This child is a Democrat."  or "This child is a Keynesian"?


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## 660griz (Jan 9, 2015)

"This child is a Kardashian."  The lottery of birth.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 9, 2015)

yes, I believe it is.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2015)

This came up because my 6 year old daughter told me that her cousin, one year older told her that she was a Christian.

What the heck?!?


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## vowell462 (Jan 24, 2015)

Its all part of the indoctrination process. Yes, its ridiculous.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 24, 2015)

"If a child is baptized in Jesus they are christian." Never heard that before? The benefits of baptism in Christianity comes from the grace of God. It's that simple.

Ridiculous for some and not to some others. On the other hand being Libertarian depends on the person.

From the Christian paradigm it can make sense.  To someone bringing a baseball bat to the golf course -- it is nonsense.


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## mtnwoman (Jan 25, 2015)

My bro who has one son out of 8 children said about his one year old son his 1 year old son year son was another Mickey Mantle.

Good grief...parents say that ridiculous stuff all the time....come on now...none of y'all ever said that about your children?? 'He's gonna kill the biggest buck ever'.....this  thread is ridiculous!!


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## Asath (Jan 26, 2015)

‘This Child is a Christian’—Also commonly stated as ‘If Yer not One of Us, You Must Be One of Them.’

     The proper expression is, ‘This Child is a Child.’  Unfortunately for the child, what happens next is the consequence of his or her parents circumstances.  Whether the child is born to Islamic parents in Somalia, Christian parents in Tennessee, Hindu parents in India, or Atheist parents in China or Malibu will determine just about everything that happens to the poor kid.  Parents do not happen to have children through some mysterious agency outside their control – while children, unfortunately, get stuck with parents who happen to them through no fault of their own.  It is a rare child who escapes this tragedy of repetition – parents invariably wish to raise their children as miniatures of themselves, assuming as they nearly all do that their own thoughts, experiences, beliefs, biases, and tastes are the best and cannot be improved upon.  

     This is why any real intellectual progress is so painstakingly slow.  The Earth stayed flat in the minds of the vast majority for hundreds of years after it was known not to be so, and there are dozens and dozens of similar examples in all areas – individual parents and entire communities and societies ratify their own stupidities by imposing them on the next generation, and the next . . . It takes a rare and particular kind of individual courage to look your parents, teachers, religious and governmental leaders in the eye and say, ‘Um, not to be disrespectful or anything, but are you folks out of yer cotton-pickin’ minds?’  And the saddest part of all is that in almost every case they ARE out of their cotton-pickin’ minds.

     But history teaches that it is the one asking the question or pointing out the truth who is persecuted, ostracized, and quite often executed.  Small wonder there are so few rebels within any of the self-interest groups.  To anyone who asks uncomfortable questions, the reaction is invariably to close ranks, close minds, and accuse – ‘You  must be one of THEM!’  A kid hasn’t got a chance . . .


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 26, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> "If a child is baptized in Jesus they are christian." Never heard that before? The benefits of baptism in Christianity comes from the grace of God. It's that simple.
> 
> Ridiculous for some and not to some others. On the other hand being Libertarian depends on the person.
> 
> From the Christian paradigm it can make sense.  To someone bringing a baseball bat to the golf course -- it is nonsense.



That almost sounds like election instead of free will. I hope you are right. 
Still what of the Hindu children?

I'm hoping children are saved because of their ignorance and Baptism isn't required in this respect. I mean God doesn't just save the children of Christian parents or just Christian parents who baptize their children does he?

I'm thinking we might place a lot of rules upon God that he might not follow. God might grant more waivers than we give him credit for. 
Salvation is of the Lord.

All children are Christian or at least have salvation, even the Hindu.


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## Asath (Jan 27, 2015)

"If a child is baptized in Jesus they are christian."

Huh?  What did the child not understand?  Some odd folks toss a bit of water on an infant, according to their own superstition, and say a few words, and upon that moment, the child is transformed?  Wow.  Keep that one secret, will you?  If the Democrats find out that it is that easy to create new acolytes we’re in deep trouble.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2015)

Israel said:


> Again, did I misread? Is this something the child said of themself or was said of them?



Gordon said that if a child is baptized as an infant then that makes the child a Christian. 
To me a Christian has salvation. I thought all children have salvation. 
Therefore all children regardless of their parents religion will have salvation. God grants children this special privilege because of their ignorance of Jesus' sacrifice and God's grace. 
I can't see the baptism as some form of "election" when parents do this. Salvation is of the Lord and not parents.


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## 660griz (Jan 27, 2015)

Artfuldodger said:


> God grants children this special privilege because of their ignorance of Jesus' sacrifice and God's grace.


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## drippin' rock (Jan 27, 2015)

More mental gymnastics.


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## Asath (Jan 27, 2015)

I suspect that a point is being deliberately missed.  Not really surprising, since this tactic is rife, and accounts for nearly all of modern ‘politics’ and ‘religion.’  A child, age seven, self-described as a ‘Christian.’  This has little or nothing to do with baptisms, the presumed ‘grace’ of a nonexistent god, or just who is ‘saved’ under some oddly thought construction of fictitious superstitious rituals and just who is not.  This has to do with the brain-washing and wholly unfair indoctrination of a child into their parent’s mind-set.

     An infant cannot understand the significance of the particulars of their parent’s choices.  They are unable to make an informed choice themselves.  But as a loyal son or daughter, and knowing they are helpless unless they please their parents, they accept those beliefs, no matter how odd and wrong they are, without comment, trusting their parents to be both virtuous and wise.  That part, unfortunately, has just about never been true.  But by the time a child finds that out it is far too late in most cases – they have already been conditioned, trained, inculcated, and had the larger part of their real choices made for them before they were of an age or an intellectual maturity to effectively question.  In effect, they were sand-bagged from birth, and by the time they look around and ask, ‘Why am I behind this rock, and why am I pushing so hard?,’ it is already too late, since they have been stranded behind the barricades erected by their elders.

     So, if the ‘TRUTH,’ as each constructs it to their own ends, and defends it to the death, is so compelling, obvious, and plainly self-evident that it can stand alone as a simple fact, like gravity or snowstorms, why would there be such a huge industry in forcing opinions and endless, groundless, sectarian squabbles upon children?  If yours is clearly the correct truth, certainly the child will grow to realize that all by themselves.  ‘I throw the ball up, the ball comes back down.  Every time.  Darn.  They were right.’  The only reason for forcing ideas into the mind of a helpless child would stem from the insecurity and the lack of conviction that such an idea might actually be right – YOUR thoughts on the subject cannot be proven, are not self-evident or easily, independently discoverable, and as such, they are frighteningly weak and built on shaky ground.  This is a problem.  With no real way to promulgate this idea on it’s merits, since it has no independent merits that can be verified, the only way to ratify yourself is to force your children to think as you think.  Endlessly repetitive brain-washing, starting at birth, is all you’ve got.  Unfortunately for the children, that’s all they’ve got as well.  

     I’m sorry to report that you’re losing them.  Slowly, I will grant, since your efforts in every sect and the nonsensically desperate clinging to ancient dogmas and the forceful inculcation of a new generation of fools like you seems to occupy the entire agenda of modern religions – each in their own way knows that they are doomed, outdated, and factually and ideologically outflanked by real truths – and increasing your efforts to convert everyone to your point of view, whether by endless evangelizing, harassment, hectoring, claiming victim status, or resorting to violence and terrorism is having the opposite effect – people are abandoning religions in droves.  Each and all of you have outlived your relevance, and are now a force opposing human goodness and cooperative progress, seeking at all times to divide and condemn and marginalize.  Look around – civilization is done with you, and the more you oppose your own irrelevance the more YOU are being marginalized.  Far more churches are being abandoned, torn down or converted to other uses than are being built.  We’re pretty much just grudgingly tolerating you rabidly religious folks at this point, and waiting you out. 

     You’ve got nothing.  You know it, and we know it.  Your god is a god of supposition.  Our truths are true.  Game over.  So how about being graceful about it, and leaving our kids alone to make their own conclusions?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 28, 2015)

gordon 2 said:


> "If a child is baptized in Jesus they are christian." Never heard that before? The benefits of baptism in Christianity comes from the grace of God. It's that simple.
> 
> Ridiculous for some and not to some others. On the other hand being Libertarian depends on the person.
> 
> From the Christian paradigm it can make sense.  To someone bringing a baseball bat to the golf course -- it is nonsense.



Gordon, I might have to rethink my answer:

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

Does at least one parent of every child have to be Christian in order for the child to be holy?


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## Huntinfool (Jan 30, 2015)

Before I even start....I have to say that I have no idea why I'm actually wading into this.  I'm 100% aware of how slim the odds of us agreeing on anything are.  When someone is volitionally attached to an idea, it's very difficult to change their mind, regardless of the evidence or strength of the argument.







> If yours is clearly the correct truth, certainly the child will grow to realize that all by themselves.  ‘I throw the ball up, the ball comes back down.  Every time.  Darn.  They were right.’



So, just to be clear, your idea is that the role of parents is to stand back and let children figure all things out for themselves.  Is that right?



> The only reason for forcing ideas into the mind of a helpless child would stem from the insecurity and the lack of conviction that such an idea might actually be right



or....from a careful study of the evidence that convinces an intelligent person that the vast majority of evidence points to a creator (regardless of who that is).  Major error is this line of thinking (as I'm sure you're already aware) is that you start with the incorrect assumption that the only possible way to believe in a creator is unadulterated blind faith.



> YOUR thoughts on the subject cannot be proven, are not self-evident or easily, independently discoverable, and as such, they are frighteningly weak and built on shaky ground.  This is a problem.



You and I will just have to disagree on that.  I, and many others, are convinced that the overwhelming majority of the evidence does point to an 'unmoved mover' if you will.

If someone as brilliant as Hawking cannot find a viable theory that will sufficiently explain away a creator....well I suppose the answer is that "somebody" eventually will, right?



> With no real way to promulgate this idea on it’s merits, since it has no independent merits that can be verified, the only way to ratify yourself is to force your children to think as you think.



Yes, I believe that it is my job as a parent to teach my children what evidence tells me is true.  If you put your hand in a fire, you will be burned.  I also teach them about the evidence that verifies my other beliefs.



> Endlessly repetitive brain-washing, starting at birth, is all you’ve got.  Unfortunately for the children, that’s all they’ve got as well.



It's not all I've got....but it's remarkably effective.  "Don't run into oncoming traffic.", repeated many times with a valid explanation of why brainwashes them into not running into traffic.  They don't have to experiment with it to know the truth of what happens if they do.  



> I’m sorry to report that you’re losing them.  Slowly, I will grant



You and I agree on that....we just disagree on the "why". 



> generation of fools like you seems to occupy the entire agenda of modern religions – each in their own way knows that they are doomed, outdated, and factually and ideologically outflanked by real truths



What is the truth?  I'm interested to hear it.



> Far more churches are being abandoned, torn down or converted to other uses than are being built.



Please tell me that you don't actually believe that.  You're just going to discredit yourself if you do.  Go look up the actual statistics on Christianity.  You're limiting your view of the world to your personal experience.  Many more are being converted on a daily basis across the globe than are leaving.  I'm sure you know that.  But, since it sounds good in this diatribe, it works for your purpose, right?





> You’ve got nothing.  You know it, and we know it.  Your god is a god of supposition.  Our truths are true.  Game over.  So how about being graceful about it, and leaving our kids alone to make their own conclusions?



There are not "your truths" and "our truths"....there are only truths.  I'm sure you know that as well.

Curious, what's got you so angry about all this?  I'm not mad at you because you're wrong.  Why are you so angry at a group of people you believe are already dead anyway?


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## Asath (Feb 3, 2015)

Setting aside the odd habit of attempting to refute a whole argument by cherry-picking parts of it and arguing the fragments out of context (what could teaching a child not to run into traffic possibly have to do with assigning them an abstract belief system against their will?), I’m afraid that I don’t understand your point.  Are you saying that it is perfectly okay to teach your children to randomly murder infidels in the name of the religion they were assigned?

     Are you saying that the invariable argument that ‘I’m right, and everyone else is Wrong’ can be demonstrated factually, ending the discussion forever (in your favor, of course)?  Are you suggesting that it is okay to brain-wash children with religious biases they did not choose, but only YOUR children, and everyone else should knock it off, because they are wrong?  And even if you wish to absurdly assert that YOUR religious doctrines are as true, provable, and self-evident as gravity, what about everyone else? 

     The OP isn’t about you, personally, it is about the fairness of indoctrinating children in belief systems before they are of an age to make an informed choice.  The fact that you make it about yourself, personally, is telling, but every one of your odd ‘points’ not only do not add up to a coherent, connected argument when taken together but could be equally asserted by any and all religious sects.  So if it is, by your tortuous rationalization, perfectly justifiable to label and indoctrinate and induce your children into your own cult under threat of punishment, then it ought to be just as valid for the radical islamists to do the same.  Can you argue otherwise, in any logical way?  The assertion that ‘I’m right and They’re wrong’ is so much window dressing – you cannot demonstrate any such thing objectively, and, as I said, their attitude is the same as yours in all regards, as are their arguments in favor of themselves and their own righteousness.

     A dogma comes to be called a ‘belief’ because it cannot be demonstrated to be true.  Belief is the absence of facts, not a fact in and of itself, and so is, by its nature ‘blind.’  Here once again we are served an ample demonstration of that willful blindness.


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