# Mark 16:18. snake salvation



## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well. (NIV)

So against this backdrop, have you seen the "reality" television series on cable, "Snake Salvation?" (Maybe somebody could find and post a link to cover my weakness.)

I do not seek criticism of any our Lord's servants for any reason.    

I frankly am in a bit of awe at how "all-in" these folks appear to be for their Lord. At the same time, I wonder about the theology behind this.  I've also heard strong negative reaction, and feel a nebular repulsion.

I get a similar push-pull emotion when I see street preachers answering their call by screaming at passersby.



One aspect I am curious about is the Holy Spirit's presence and guidance.  Now if this were Puppy Salvation, I could pick up little furry puppies with my hand. But venomous 
vipers?  The Spirit is definitely going to have to be crystal clear and all over me before I can see myself doing this.  Do I lack faith as a result, given Christ's own statement?

On other threads, from time to time, forumites comment that they do not believe that the Lord "speaks" to us in the moment here and now through the Holy Spirit.  I'd like 
clarity on that and any offer of other explanation for these folks' demonstration of faith.  Many thanks.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 15, 2013)

Handling venomous snakes today is testing the Lord, which we know not to do. Mark 16:18 refers to this sign in my opinion and is fulfilled.


Acts 28:3-5

3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.

5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Handling venomous snakes today is testing the Lord, which we know not to do. Mark 16:18 refers to this sign in my opinion and is fulfilled.
> 
> 
> Acts 28:3-5
> ...



Does that mean the miraculous healing of the sick mentioned in the same context also has been fulfilled... per Acts 8:7?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

Hobbs, thanks.  Interesting connection.  

The lawyer in me was focused on Christ mentioning "they" will handle snakes with "their" hands, and omitting reference to poisonous snakes, getting bit or a healthful outcome.  No promises provided on the snakes.  It seems like the idea of surviving poison is different from the snake handling.


Was there ever an example in the NT of someone drinking deadly poison and not being harmed at all?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Does that mean the miraculous healing of the sick mentioned in the same context also has been fulfilled... per Acts 8:7?




I am interested in both of your views. How would one discern when a passage is fulfilled or otherwise limited in application by time or other context?

Bama ... Have you seen the show? Can you share your view of the Spirit in relation to the feats these Christfollowers perform?  Is there any lesson in this for us and our exercise of faith?  Thnx


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> ... Have you seen the show?



I have not, but I did see a similar show on Animal Planet last year.  I believe it was called "Snake Man of Appalatia".  As you say, they seem like extremely devout people.


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I am interested in both of your views. How would one discern when a passage is fulfilled or otherwise limited in application by time or other context?
> 
> Bama ... Have you seen the show? Can you share your view of the Spirit in relation to the feats these Christfollowers perform?  Is there any lesson ior this for us and our exercise of faith?  Thnx



I haven't... though i agree with Hobbs about its time of fulfillment being in the past.  Funny thing... when I say that same thing about miracles, Holy Spirit leading, etc. I always have plenty of people ready to show me how wrong I am.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 15, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I frankly am in a bit of awe at how "all-in" these folks appear to be for their Lord. At the same time, I wonder about the theology behind this.  I've also heard strong negative reaction, and feel a nebular repulsion.



It's definitely a very different "preacher show" than this one:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=775126


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## hobbs27 (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Does that mean the miraculous healing of the sick mentioned in the same context also has been fulfilled... per Acts 8:7?






> BT Charlie Hobbs, thanks. Interesting connection.
> 
> The lawyer in me was focused on Christ mentioning "they" will handle snakes with "their" hands, and omitting reference to poisonous snakes, getting bit or a healthful outcome. No promises provided on the snakes. It seems like the idea of surviving poison is different from the snake handling.
> 
> ...



Hope this will answer both of your questions.


http://www.granbychurchofchrist.org/Bible/KingJames/Mark/Commentary/16-17.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Hope this will answer both of your questions.
> 
> 
> http://www.granbychurchofchrist.org/Bible/KingJames/Mark/Commentary/16-17.htm



I would like to see views as Bama4me mentioned. Why has certain aspects of the Holy Spirit ended and others hasn't? Why were these things needed to confirm the Word but aren't needed anymore? 
Where do we draw the line on what the Holy Spirit does in  present Modern Day Christianity?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2013)

If people of today were  to see some of the miracles of the Early Church it would be easier and take less faith than today. Today we must have more faith, what changed the need to confirm the Word? Just the Bible in print?


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Hope this will answer both of your questions.
> 
> 
> http://www.granbychurchofchrist.org/Bible/KingJames/Mark/Commentary/16-17.htm



I'm right there with him... we no longer need miraculous workings of the Spirit to convince us.  John 20:30-31 tells us that when we read accounts of these things occurring, we can come to believe.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> It's definitely a very different "preacher show" than this one:
> 
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=775126



Oh my ....


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## Bama4me (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I would like to see views as Bama4me mentioned. Why has certain aspects of the Holy Spirit ended and others hasn't? Why were these things needed to confirm the Word but aren't needed anymore?
> Where do we draw the line on what the Holy Spirit does in  present Modern Day Christianity?



I've said it dozens of times on different threads... without a written standard in the first century, the only tool one had was the Old Testament - but even copies of it were not widespread.  The things mentioned in Mark 16:16-17 were to convince people their message WAS from God.  Acts is full of examples... God worked a miracle through the hand of a preacher and audiences believed the subsequent message.


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## Alan Hicks (Oct 15, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Where do we draw the line on what the Holy Spirit does in  present Modern Day Christianity?



We don't. The line isn't drawn on what "God the Holy Ghost" (I just love the way that rolls off the tongue and prefer it to "Holy Spirit") does in today's world. The line is drawn on how much faith we put in Him.

Couple of weeks ago when my Granddaddy was preaching, he brought up the passage of Acts 3:1-10.



> 1Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. 2And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; 3Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. 4And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. 5And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. 6Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. 7And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength. 8And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. 9And all the people saw him walking and praising God: 10And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.



He related how a Catholic priest had taken another minister to see some of the many grand and beautiful churches and monasteries in Europe with their vaulted ceilings, their fresco walls, their stained-glass windows, their golden candle stands and such. The priest turned to the minister and said "We can no longer say 'silver and gold have I none' can we?" To this the minister replied, "No, but neither can we say 'In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk'."

It is an attachment to this world of flesh and a lack of attachment to the world of faith that keeps Him from performing these miraculous acts.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> I'm right there with him... we no longer need miraculous workings of the Spirit to convince us.  John 20:30-31 tells us that when we read accounts of these things occurring, we can come to believe.



Why would Paul provide so much instruction on orderly administration of gifts in the church after the text at 1 Cor. 13: 8-10, if the three gifts referenced had already ceased? 

Prophesying, tounges and knowledge will cease when perfection comes.  Isn't that Jesus' return? Paul is speaking of a future event, not a previous event, e.g. Christ's resurrection.

 If we aren't in a state of perfection between Paul's time and now, what was the triggering event that caused these
 gifts to cease?  None is mentioned, other than perfection coming.  A lot of smart Forumites, but none in a perfect state yet?

At Mark 16:15, Christ is speaking directly to the surviving apostles:  "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'  

Then v. 16 says " Whoever believes and is baptized will be 
saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."  by the use of whoever, is Christ not referring to folks in the world hearing the apostles?

Verse 17 says "And these signs will accompany those that believe:" Is this phrase "those who believe" a reference to the apostles, or folks who hear and believe the Word?


I guess all can agree that faith, hope and love are gifts that will continue forever.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

Alan Hicks said:


> We don't. The line isn't drawn on what "God the Holy Ghost" (I just love the way that rolls off the tongue and prefer it to "Holy Spirit") does in today's world. The line is drawn on how much faith we put in Him.
> 
> Couple of weeks ago when my Granddaddy was preaching, he brought up the passage of Acts 3:1-10.
> 
> ...





Amen.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 15, 2013)

1 Thessalonians 5:19-20.  Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not  treat prophesies with contempt.   

I can't see that as assissting the view that Paul foretold the then-present extinction of the gift of prophesying.


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## Israel (Oct 16, 2013)

I'd be afraid of trying to handle snake handlers.
Unless of course, one came to me. Unbidden.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> I'm right there with him... we no longer need miraculous workings of the Spirit to convince us.  John 20:30-31 tells us that when we read accounts of these things occurring, we can come to believe.



 Ahh... but. We all need miraculous workings of the spirit within us. It is not bible that convinces us but the Holy Spirit. Because these signs have come to pass does not mean the Holy Spirit has left us. I just want to make that clear in my opinion.

 There's no man that heals, no man that prophesies, no man that can lay on of hands and command miracles.  But.....

James 5:14

Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:


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## Israel (Oct 16, 2013)

Jesus knew the works wouldn't convince anyone. But that doesn't negate their continuing. "they have Moses and the prophets"...it is righteousness that convicts us ...that..."righteousness exists".

As to God's being willing to intervene and even "contravene" according to our need, even his own physical/natural "laws"...well, that has more to do with escaping one law for a higher one.
Mercy.

God will never break a law...even for our own sakes...but he will allow all the lower to be revealed broken in our own sight..for a higher one to be manifest.


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## clayservant (Oct 16, 2013)

I would tell them to drink poison also and see how that works, don,t just obey part of the verse.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I would tell them to drink poison also and see how that works, don,t just obey part of the verse.



I think some of them drink strychnine. The Bible verse doesn't say the snakes have to be poisonous.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

Israel said:


> Jesus knew the works wouldn't convince anyone. But that doesn't negate their continuing. "they have Moses and the prophets"...it is righteousness that convicts us ...that..."righteousness exists".
> 
> As to God's being willing to intervene and even "contravene" according to our need, even his own physical/natural "laws"...well, that has more to do with escaping one law for a higher one.
> Mercy.
> ...





Love is odd.  Impelled to say thanks and show it, I often am soiled by conflicting, hidden motives ... If not hidden, subconscious perhaps. But always there.   "Look at ME--I love you -- as my superior understanding demonstrates!" I am soiled, and return time and again to my impure well of "knowledge" and 
offer other Forumites a sip.

What if what motivates me to post here is precisely what motivates the Potter's other vessels to hire a production company, lay out their doctrine in a reality television series and take cash for it -- all of it, posting and television, hoisted in belief it furthers the Potter's glory?

Maybe zealots of knowledge, whether snake handlers or not, would serve best by being silent, staying off forums and television? Adopt an ambition to lead quiet lives, minding our own business, doing our own work so we are dependent on no other humans and thus winning the  respect of outsiders.

Knowledge, without love and active faith application, puffs up for selfish gain.  Maybe that is as poisonous as a rattler.

My testimony is Christ is Lord. Am I soiled and lost still to believe that the only possible way I glimpse that is because the Holy Spirit, by grace, indwells me in the here and now? That is my only righteousness, Christ alive in Heaven, completing His ministry in His perfect time, mediating to us as He will, through the Holy Spirit.

 I believe each has different spiritual gifts mentioned by Paul.  The time of perfection has not occurred.  Upon Christ's return, we will see and experience that.  No gifts have ceased.  Miracles exist.  The Spirit leads us daily, if we can receive that.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 16, 2013)

I would interpret that scripture as referring to and bestowing powers upon a _specific small group of individuals_ that he was instructing to go out and preach, not to Christians in general either then or now. 
We had a snake-handling preacher near my home a few years back. He died from a snake bite.
I do like their music, though.


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## David Parker (Oct 16, 2013)

http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/snake-salvation/

Herez the URL.  It's as entertaining as Doomsday Preppers or Alaskan State Troopers imho


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Why would Paul provide so much instruction on orderly administration of gifts in the church after the text at 1 Cor. 13: 8-10, if the three gifts referenced had already ceased?
> 
> Prophesying, tounges and knowledge will cease when perfection comes.  Isn't that Jesus' return? Paul is speaking of a future event, not a previous event, e.g. Christ's resurrection.
> 
> ...



Some of ya'll knew I couldn't resist this one.  We've had a few discussions about this one before.

I agree with what is written above.  Let me add a couple of points.

The instructions began with go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.  When was that completed?  We know that the disciples did not do this, nor the apostles, therefore the instructions had to be for future evangelists.  When every creature in all the world has had the gospel preached to it, we can begin discussing the end of the era being discussed in this scripture.

Secondly, as the entire world hears the gospel, the world will be divided into two groups; those who believe (saved), and those who do not believe (condemned).  And these signs shall follow those who believe.  Jesus did not say that these signs shall follow "you" who I'm talking to right now.  Jesus didn't say these signs will follow my disciples.  Jesus said these signs will follow those who believe, which is the terminology He used when he divided the world into two groups.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Some of ya'll knew I couldn't resist this one.  We've had a few discussions about this one before.
> 
> I agree with what is written above.  Let me add a couple of points.
> 
> The instructions began with go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.  When was that completed? .



Acts 2
  -And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2-  -And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3- And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4- And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 5- -And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

Cessationism;  

In Christian theology, Cessationism is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophetic utterances and faith healing, ceased being practiced early in Christian Church history. Cessationists generally believe that the miraculous gifts were provided only for the foundation of the Christian Church, during the time between the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, c. 33 AD, as described in the 2nd Chapter of Acts, and the fulfillment of God's purposes in history, usually identified as either the completion of the last book of the New Testament (Book of Revelation), or the death of John the Apostle, the last of the Twelve Apostles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cessationism

 Do we know how or why the gifts ceased if in fact they have? What benefit does having the Holy Spirit dwelling in me have if he's no longer allowed to help me live or show me the truth?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Acts 2
> 
> 5- -And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.



Gill's Exposition:
out of every nation under heaven; that is, wherever the Jews were dispersed; being the descendants of those that were carried captive at different times, and into different places; as by Salmanezer, Nebuchadnezzar, Ptolomy Lagus, Antiochus, and in other lesser dispersions.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2013)

I am all about double portion, so when I handle snakes, I handle them in two pieces.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Acts 2
> -And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
> 
> 2-  -And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
> ...



Wouldn't that make the great Commission more like "Gather up everyone on earth in one place, do some miracles, preach the gospel, and then you're done"?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

If Christianity is based on faith, why did the Early Church need a jump start?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

NCHillbilly said:


> I would interpret that scripture as referring to and bestowing powers upon a _specific small group of individuals_ that he was instructing to go out and preach, not to Christians in general either then or now.
> We had a snake-handling preacher near my home a few years back. He died from a snake bite.
> I do like their music, though.




In one of the churches depicted, two out of three men leading were snake bit during the first few episodes.  Then they risked death by not seeking medical treatment. They suffered on television, and so far as I know lived and recovered.  

And the young married leader continued on such course despite his terrified wife's objections and pleas to the contrary.  

Heroes of faith, or something else? Who is the clay that it 
would dare criticize the Potter's hand? Woe to those who criticize a Father's child?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

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Artfuldodger said:


> Cessationism;
> 
> In Christian theology, Cessationism is the view that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit, such as speaking in tongues, prophetic utterances and faith healing, ceased being practiced early in Christian Church history. Cessationists generally believe that the miraculous gifts were provided only for the foundation of the Christian Church, during the time between the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, c. 33 AD, as described in the 2nd Chapter of Acts, and the fulfillment of God's purposes in history, usually identified as either the completion of the last book of the New Testament (Book of Revelation), or the death of John the Apostle, the last of the Twelve Apostles.
> 
> ...




May I ask which denominations hold that gifts ceased? Is the scriptural authority uniform, or do reasons vary?  

Mr. Hobbs, I'm not sure what the Acts scripture you quoted means; could you share your view of it and any other commentary links you may have?  Many thnx


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Wouldn't that make the great Commission more like "Gather up everyone on earth in one place, do some miracles, preach the gospel, and then you're done"?



Jesus was instructing His disciples. I can't help what it says, it is what it is.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


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> 
> ...



That's when the Gospel went out to all the world...men from all nations heard it. In Collosians Paul even says the Gospel has already gone out to the whole world.


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## Bama4me (Oct 16, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Why would Paul provide so much instruction on orderly administration of gifts in the church after the text at 1 Cor. 13: 8-10, if the three gifts referenced had already ceased?
> 
> Prophesying, tounges and knowledge will cease when perfection comes.  Isn't that Jesus' return? Paul is speaking of a future event, not a previous event, e.g. Christ's resurrection.
> 
> ...



BT... 1 Corinthians 13 is primarily pointing out that although the Corinthian brethren were currently arguing about who possessed "which spiritual gifts" (with tongues likely being at "the top"), there would come a time when those gifts would no longer be in existence.  In other words, there would be a time when tongues, prophecy, etc. would no longer be present at Corinth.  When those things would cease to exist, they would be left with "faith, hope, and love".

When we realize gifts like "tongues/prophecy/knowledge" were the "in part" (not the "perfect"), we should ask this question - "what were tongues/prophecy/knowledge used for in the first century?"  The answer comes from at least two places in Scripture.  

First is Mark 16:15-18.  Miracles would demonstrate to all people that a message was from God, not man.  We'll see this demonstrated in places in Acts like 8:4-6 - where the gospel was accepted when people saw Philip doing many miraculous works (including healing the sick).  We must realize in the first century, people didn't have a copy of "Christ's word" to compare a message to.  If a person came and told you of the gospel, God, judgment, etc., you'd want verification that the message was from God - not man.  The miraculous things in Mark 16:17-18 would give confirmation to that fact.

Second is Ephesians 4:4:11-16.  In this passage, we see the gifts were given in order to "equip the saints for the work of ministry"... "to build up the body of Christ"... to accomplish "unity of the faith and unity about the knowledge of Christ".  Or, in other words, lead the church to "maturity" (13).  As in 1 Corinthians 13, the gifts are described in such a way that when a point (maturity) came, their purpose would have been fulfilled... over in 1 Corinthians 13, that point is called "perfection" (literally rendered "completion").

Combining these two passages together and you come away with this... miracles in the 1st century (1) verified messages as being from God and (2) allowed the church to function as God intended - providing instruction, unity, and edification.

Question... IF there is a book today that claims to be from this same God which tells us the gospel story (including the OT prophecy about Jesus) AND everyone agrees to follow what is written in this book, what would be accomplished?  Would not the purposes of these miraculous things be?

In my opinion, the word "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is not properly rendered... and as a result, leads to confusion.  The Greek word (teleios) in other places in the NT is often rendered "mature" (see 1 Corinthians 14:20, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 1:28, Hebrews 5:14, etc.).  It is important to notice both words are present in 1 Corinthians 13:10 and Ephesians 4:13.  And, the word is used in James 1:25 to describe the "law of liberty" (synonym for Christ's law).  

Does the written, completed NT not tell us of this law?  Does it not lead to belief?  Does it not lead to unity - provided all will live according to it?  I believe "the perfect" ("complete") that is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 13:10 is the assembled books of the NT.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Jesus was instructing His disciples. I can't help what it says, it is what it is.



If the Great Commission was only for Jesus' disciples, then Jesus actually believed that the disciples would travel to all parts of the earth, which we know they didn't even attempt to do.

Plus, if Jesus was only directing His disciples, when he made the distinction between the ones who believe (saved) and the ones who do not believe (condemned), he was only talking about disciples being saved and disciples  being condemned, and the saved disciples would have those signs.

Which of the disciples do you think Jesus was talking about when He said they did not believe and were condemned?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> That's when the Gospel went out to all the world...men from all nations heard it. In Collosians Paul even says the Gospel has already gone out to the whole world.



So we can stop spreading the word now, right?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> We must realize in the first century, people didn't have a copy of "Christ's word" to compare a message to.  If a person came and told you of the gospel, God, judgment, etc., you'd want verification that the message was from God - not man.  The miraculous things in Mark 16:17-18 would give confirmation to that fact.



So it's the existence of the Bible that makes it impossible for other religions to gather followers?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the Great Commission was only for Jesus' disciples, then Jesus actually believed that the disciples would travel to all parts of the earth, which we know they didn't even attempt to do.



I'm not so sure about that.  We know that Paul traveled extensively throughout the Roman Empire.  The Apostle Thomas was martyred in India.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


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> May I ask which denominations hold that gifts ceased? Is the scriptural authority uniform, or do reasons vary?



Presbyterian in an officially cessationist denomination. That's the only one I can find. The opposite is "continuationism."
I was reading about it here:

Kurt N. said... March 23, 2009 at 5:40 PM 
I don't really buy the case for cessationism, but I guess I'm a practical cessationist when it comes to my worship practices. I get extremely skeptical when people talk about how somebody was so annointed, or charismatic, or how they spoke in tongues or were slain in the spirit.

I just am not ready to slam the door and say "no, God doesn't do that at all any more".

Patrick Parker said... March 23, 2009 at 5:45 PM 
Yeah, I'm Presbyterian in an officially cessationist denomination (I think) but I have a hard time bringing myself to say, "God doesn't work that way anymore."

A funny thing - you'd be hard pressed to find any Christian, cessationist or continuationist, who would argue with the statement, "Miracles happen every day."

There is also the rather obvious axiom that God can make whatever kind of deal he wants with whomever he wants. He's the boss, so it's His way or the highway.

But like you say, it sure seems suspicious when people talk about the charismatic stuff.

Kurt N. said... March 24, 2009 at 10:11 AM 
Denominations like Sovereign Grace ministries (CJ Mahaney, Josh Harris) seem to have the most scripturally sound approach to charismatic gifts from what I've gleaned, but I'm still comfy in my PCA pew.

When you get to little Pentecostal churches where people start screaming and handling snakes and whatnot...I just can't take any of that.

And don't get me started on TBN.

http://selfeducationofpat.blogspot.com/2009/03/cessationism-vs-continuationism_18.html

I guess the Pentecostal Church is at the other end of the spectrum of being "continuationist."
I don't understand why we never have any Penecostal believers participating on this forum.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

In response to CF,

It's a widely held belief that humans crossed the Bering Straits and began populating the Americas around 10,000 BC, however there has been rock art discovered in South America that has been dated to around 25,000 years ago.  That would be prior to the travels of Paul and Thomas.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's a widely held belief that humans crossed the Bering Straits and began populating the Americas around 10,000 BC, however there has been rock art discovered in South America that has been dated to around 25,000 years ago.  That would be prior to the travels of Paul and Thomas.



So, because none of the apostles made it South America, they disobeyed God?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> So, because none of the apostles made it South America, they disobeyed God?



Nope, because the great Commission was not only for the disciples but for all future believers as well.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In response to CF,
> 
> It's a widely held belief that humans crossed the Bering Straits and began populating the Americas around 10,000 BC, however there has been rock art discovered in South America that has been dated to around 25,000 years ago.  That would be prior to the travels of Paul and Thomas.



This is one of those times it does a man good to start digging into a strongs concordance. When Paul stated the Gospel had been preached to every creature which is under heaven.Colossians 1:23.   He wasn't lying!


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Nope, because the great Commission was not only for the disciples but for all future believers as well.



Where does it say that specifically?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> ... the great Commission was not only for the disciples but for all future believers as well.



Agreed, so what was your point in post 44?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Where does it say that specifically?





HawgJawl said:


> Plus, if Jesus was only directing His disciples, when he made the distinction between the ones who believe (saved) and the ones who do not believe (condemned), he was only talking about disciples being saved and disciples  being condemned, and the saved disciples would have those signs.
> 
> Which of the disciples do you think Jesus was talking about when He said they did not believe and were condemned?



I'm having trouble putting this into words.  When Jesus spoke of "those who believe", do you think He was only talking about His disciples?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Agreed, so what was your point in post 44?



My point was that the disciples traveled a small area in relation to the entire populated world.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> This is one of those times it does a man good to start digging into a strongs concordance. When Paul stated the Gospel had been preached to every creature which is under heaven.Colossians 1:23.   He wasn't lying!



There are some newborns over in the hospital nursery who have never heard the gospel preached.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm having trouble putting this into words.  When Jesus spoke of "those who believe", do you think He was only talking about His disciples?



Mark 16:16?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There are some newborns over in the hospital nursery who have never heard the gospel preached.



So you claim Paul is a liar, or do you want to study more?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Mark 16:16?



Yes, because Mark 16 verse 16 leads right into verse 17 with the word "and".


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> So you claim Paul is a liar, or do you want to study more?



I'm saying that you are misinterpreting that scripture if you think Paul is stating that he or any other disciple personally preached to every creature on earth.


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## Bama4me (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm having trouble putting this into words.  When Jesus spoke of "those who believe", do you think He was only talking about His disciples?



HJ... your answer helping to provide clarity is found in the book of Acts - there we see how Mark 16:15-18 was actually put into action by the apostles of Christ.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

Who specifically does Jesus say these signs shall follow?

Does Jesus say that these signs shall follow "you, my disciples"?


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## clayservant (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the Great Commission was only for Jesus' disciples, then Jesus actually believed that the disciples would travel to all parts of the earth, which we know they didn't even attempt to do.
> 
> Plus, if Jesus was only directing His disciples, when he made the distinction between the ones who believe (saved) and the ones who do not believe (condemned), he was only talking about disciples being saved and disciples  being condemned, and the saved disciples would have those signs.
> 
> Which of the disciples do you think Jesus was talking about when He said they did not believe and were condemned?



no. 1 the gospel was preached to all the world already,
Colossians 1:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

no.2 the great Commission was to and for all that did or would believe in Jesus.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Who specifically does Jesus say these signs shall follow?
> 
> Does Jesus say that these signs shall follow "you, my disciples"?



I think He is saying these signs will follow the Gospel going out to the world which we already know did.....


Acts 1:8


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm saying that you are misinterpreting that scripture if you think Paul is stating that he or any other disciple personally preached to every creature on earth.



Joel 2:28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:

Mark 16:
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be -

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover


Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 6Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 9Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 10Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 11Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 12And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

Colossians 1:23

 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Where do I misinterpret?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 16, 2013)

The fact is that the disciples did not personally come into contact with, and preach to, every creature on earth.

We can call it a problem with interpretation, or translation, or an exaggeration, or bald face lie, or proof that the Bible is untrue, or anything you want to call it, other than a fact.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The fact is that the disciples did not personally come into contact with, and preach to, every creature on earth.
> 
> We can call it a problem with interpretation, or translation, or an exaggeration, or bald face lie, or proof that the Bible is untrue, or anything you want to call it, other than a fact.



I'm about to be on the road for a few hours for a three day hunt. The problem you're having with this fact lies within your on understanding of what is being said by every creature under heaven...study, pray, and get the understanding, or just give up.....you shouldn't give up though there's a blessing in understanding..


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

```
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```
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hobbs27 said:


> Joel 2:28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
> 
> Mark 16:
> 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
> ...



I think the quotes are correct, but isn't Paul merely using hyperbole in Col. 1:23, which was also used in verse 6 in a slightly different way?  

Col. 1:5 "... the gospel 6 that was come to you. All over the world this gospel is bearing fruit AND GROWING, just as it has been doing among you since you heard it and understood God's grace in all it's truth."

I believe in context, Paul was refuting false teachers, whose doctrine was the gospel was merely a local phenomenon.  Paul used these terms to stress that the Word was alive and growing throughout the Roman Empire.

How or where could the gospel grow if all creatures had actually heard it? My buddy HawgJowel raises an excellent point on infants today -- more souls will be born in the next 50 years (subject to our Lord's return) than have existed since Christ's time until today, based on population demographics.

I don't think 30 years after Pentecost Paul wanted his listeners, or us now, to receive him as saying : "Put a fork in it boys; mission accomplished."

There's work to do, Forumites, and the Spirit is in us and with us!

I like Gemcrew's double portion application to two-part snake handling.  The "whoever believes" in Mark 16 is broader, different and distinct from the initial address to the apostles.  It was aimed at the growth of the gospel among new believers.

In Luke Chapter 10, after Jesus appointed the 72, they said to Him:  17 ..."Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.  
18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.  19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.  20 However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

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Bama4me said:


> BT... 1 Corinthians 13 is primarily pointing out that although the Corinthian brethren were currently arguing about who possessed "which spiritual gifts" (with tongues likely being at "the top"), there would come a time when those gifts would no longer be in existence.  In other words, there would be a time when tongues, prophecy, etc. would no longer be present at Corinth.  When those things would cease to exist, they would be left with "faith, hope, and love".
> 
> When we realize gifts like "tongues/prophecy/knowledge" were the "in part" (not the "perfect"), we should ask this question - "what were tongues/prophecy/knowledge used for in the first century?"  The answer comes from at least two places in Scripture.
> 
> ...




Excellent discussion and very helpful.  What sources are using to interpret the original Greek; very insightful analysis.  I appreciate your work.

I have my homework set out for me.

We do agree Jesus is alive in Heaven, yes? And the Holy Spirit indwells us? And communicates our needs to Jesus even when we're at a loss to do so?  And where did we land on the Spirit communicating Jesus' intent for us?  Do we agree the Spirit communicates joy and peace to us today?

And as for modern or surviving spiritual gifts, teaching, administration and so on, the body still has those today, in your view?  Many thnx


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## Israel (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The fact is that the disciples did not personally come into contact with, and preach to, every creature on earth.
> 
> We can call it a problem with interpretation, or translation, or an exaggeration, or bald face lie, or proof that the Bible is untrue, or anything you want to call it, other than a fact.


 
_
Joh 16:5  But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 
Joh 16:6  But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 
Joh 16:7  Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 
Joh 16:8  And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 
Joh 16:9  Of sin, because they believe not on me; 
Joh 16:10  Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 
Joh 16:11  Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 
Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 
Joh 16:13  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 
Joh 16:14  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 
Joh 16:15  All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 
Joh 16:16  A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father. _

Our brothers burst out of the upper room, not wondering "how do we get anyone to believe this Jesus, 
that we know is alive...is really alive?"

We've all seen enough movies about "terra forming" a planet, from Star Trek to Total Recall.

Yes, there's something new in the air, never to be undone, never to be thwarted or annihilated.
God has made men fit to breathe in heaven, and whether men want to go to their last breath denying it, whether men want to fill their lungs with all it may afford them in joy and life, we are free. No man is a debtor to live after the flesh, anymore. This spirit bathes all, is with all, moves through all, and calls to all.

At best...we just get out of the way, by faith. No, we don't submit to "death" as a doctrine...we walk in the faith knowing all that the world has ever needed is Jesus, always and forever, and never "me". (Don't think this is a reproof of our being...God has a place just for "us")
All anyone has ever needed, our wives, our children, our closest friends...or dearest enemies...and we...of all, who have breathed in faith and tasted the pure sweet air of heaven...and seen...where no one is striving to see, or be seen, to be anything...at all...because they are so caught up in the truth of the being with, being in, being by, the love of the Lord. This the "cure"...and we get healed, ourselves, in its ministry to others.

How precious to me to have seen this sign a brother maintains off the road I travel each day...changing the scriptures on it in his devotion to the Lord almost daily. (For all I know...it's a sister)
Today: Seeing we have this ministry.

How often I have heard it as "because we have this ministry..." and I don't doubt that at all.

But today...considering you all on my ride home...I rejoiced to read..."SEEing...we have this ministry...
We have the ministry of saying what we SEE.
Even a brother was once moved to say "I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision"...and he spent his life talking, moving, preaching, teaching...to those who could receive it, of what he saw and learned of the One who sits in heavenly places. And toward the end of his life, his work, his labors, his journey that were all for joy...he reminded those who might stumble at his boldness in seeing a crown waiting (which, I am convinced, he couldn't wait to cast at someone's feet) "and not only me... but all who have loved His appearing..."


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## clayservant (Oct 16, 2013)

So I guess nobody saw this ?

the gospel was preached to all the world already,
Colossians 1:23
King James Version (KJV)

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> ```
> [CODE]
> ```
> [/CODE]
> ...



I've been studying the dwelling of the Holy Spirit and what that means. I always thought he was actually dwelling in me. Some people believe this dwelling is just "control & influence." Dwelling doesn't mean dwelling as we describe it. The Holy Spirit dwells in us by means of His revealed word. The Spirit directs our lives by the revealed word. 

I've got my homework too. I always thought I had direct guidance from the Holy Spirit. This is some of what I've been reading:
    All the persons of Deity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit) dwell in us in the same way. It is unreasonable to argue that the Holy Spirit dwells in us in a different fashion.
    Why do men want to make a distinction on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit when the Bible says essentially the same thing about how all three dwell in us?

http://franklinchurchofchrist.com/sermons/date/2006/htm/20060425PM.htm

Part III. How Does The Spirit Lead Men Today?

People sometimes wonder, if there is no direct guidance from the Spirit today, then how does the Spirit instruct us to know God's will?
A. The Spirit Instructs Men through the Scriptures.

http://gospelway.com/god/indwelling_spirit.php


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

Israel -- No. 66 is beautiful; thanks.

Clay -- ya. I saw it. I looked it up.   Most think it is hyperbole from Paul to emphasize his rebuttal to false teachers.  Few think it stands for the proposition that all creatures, including humans now unborn, have heard the gospel preached.  Temporally impossible and thus unsound.  Very similar to v 6 of the same chapter. Thanks.


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## clayservant (Oct 16, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Israel -- No. 66 is beautiful; thanks.
> 
> Clay -- ya. I saw it. I looked it up.   Most think it is hyperbole from Paul to emphasize his rebuttal to false teachers.  Few think it stands for the proposition that all creatures, including humans now unborn, have heard the gospel preached.  Temporally impossible and thus unsound.  Very similar to v 6 of the same chapter. Thanks.



see that is the problem, people do not take God at his word, he says something that we can,t handle and we have to go to other people to see what they think, there will never be a time now on earth when all will hear the gospel because there are thousands born every second, but it was able to be done back then when paul said it was done.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 16, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I've been studying the dwelling of the Holy Spirit and what that means. I always thought he was actually dwelling in me. Some people believe this dwelling is just "control & influence." Dwelling doesn't mean dwelling as we describe it. The Holy Spirit dwells in us by means of His revealed word. The Spirit directs our lives by the revealed word.
> 
> I've got my homework too. I always thought I had direct guidance from the Holy Spirit. This is some of what I've been reading:
> All the persons of Deity (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)
> ...



Thanks Art.  I will read these references.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

clayservant said:


> see that is the problem, people do not take God at his word, he says something that we can,t handle and we have to go to other people to see what they think, there will never be a time now on earth when all will hear the gospel because there are thousands born every second, but it was able to be done back then when paul said it was done.





It has the same meaning when Jesus said it would be done as it does when Paul said it was already done! The only difference in meaning is the one man inserts, so he can better understand.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well. (NIV)
> 
> So against this backdrop, have you seen the "reality" television series on cable, "Snake Salvation?" (Maybe somebody could find and post a link to cover my weakness.)
> 
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------------------
It says in scripture that if a member causes one to sin, then it should be plucked out. Now do you suppose it means amputations?

I suggest it means to focus on the things of God, those things for and against. Jesus being the authority over all powers, words of handling snakes and drinking poison are a pointing to the "overcoming" or the regeneration that is available in Jesus that permits us to rub out life's carnal deceptions and deceits.

Peer pressure can be an awesome door to sin. There is something in the brain that blocks out reason when a street demonstration of peaceful protesters turns them to rioters, robber, holigans and vandals. This is just one example.

These folks' demonstration of faith is perhaps no different than the answer to the call to now WW11 vets,  once fresh young kids, who ran in wool shirts in the streets of Europe with a rifle or a pistol, each one an individual given to each other in common against the whole of a combat trained Nazi war machine.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2013)

I don't understand the importance of whether every creation did or didn't hear the Gospel as proclaimed by Paul. Either way there are people all over the world today who haven't heard of Jesus. Maybe their ancesters forgot to tell them. Maybe they got in a boat and moved away from civilization.  With all the new souls being born everyday it would appear the Great Commission is still needed.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> It has the same meaning when Jesus said it would be done as it does when Paul said it was already done! The only difference in meaning is the one man inserts, so he can better understand.



Bless you, gentlemen.

I hope you are correct, if nothing more for you to remain certain in your faith.  
Praise God.
You argue mightily under assumed pen names on the web, perhaps evidence of your faith certainty.  Stiff neck stubbornness is nothing new to God, who knows our hearts and motives, thankfully.  May this bear much fruit for the Kingdom.

If your teachers had taught you that Jesus meant what He said, and if you believed that whoever believes in Christ for all time would be able to handle snakes with their hands, would you then be so certain as to slide back from your computers and press a cottonmouth to your lips. "I love you, Lord; I trust you, Lord; Deliver me as you will, Lord."

No, thankfully, you are so certain in the links and other teachings you've received that you would not be "deceived" by snakes.

How far will you dare go to love one another in Christ's name? What is your ultimate expression of salvation to the world and to God?  How should we know 
you as Christ followers?

Somehow, shouting "I'm right, you're wrong" falls short of the Glory of God, in 
my estimation.

Are our tappy taps on a keyboard pleasing to the Lord? Is He glad that we dare argue over His intent?  Is that what He wants as sufficient expression of our faith in salvation? Or are we suffering under a snake salvation of our own?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand the importance of whether every creation did or didn't hear the Gospel as proclaimed by Paul. Either way there are people all over the world today who haven't heard of Jesus. Maybe their ancesters forgot to tell them. Maybe they got in a boat and moved away from civilization.  With all the new souls being born everyday it would appear the Great Commission is still needed.



True dat.  The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few.  Or did our Lord likewise intend for that parable to be frozen in time and of no application to Forumites today?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------
> It says in scripture that if a member causes one to sin, then it should be plucked out. Now do you suppose it means amputations?
> 
> I suggest it means to focus on the things of God, those things for and against. Jesus being the authority over all powers, words of handling snakes and drinking poison are a pointing to the "overcoming" or the regeneration that is available in Jesus that permits us to rub out life's carnal deceptions and deceits.
> ...



I knew a tank commander who served in WWII.  During the Battle of the Bulge, he foubd himself in the back of a jeep, the driver lost, bouncing around in a frenzied dash through a forest.   Nothing was certain, where they were, where they were going, what was right or wrong. 

They broke out in a meadow, right in front of a German tank, and stopped.  As the tank crew swung the barrel to 
fire on the jeep, this man heard "Fear not, for I am with you always." A sudden and certain peace fell on him. He believed it was from Jesus, and testified to that for rest of his very long and fruitful life.  Their driver had a sudden fit of extreme competence, knew with all certainty how to evade, and did so with alacrity.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I knew a tank commander who served in WWII.  During the Battle of the Bulge, he foubd himself in the back of a jeep, the driver lost, bouncing around in a frenzied dash through a forest.   Nothing was certain, where they were, where they were going, what was right or wrong.
> 
> They broke out in a meadow, right in front of a German tank, and stopped.  As the tank crew swung the barrel to
> fire on the jeep, this man heard "Fear not, for I am with you always." A sudden and certain peace fell on him. He believed it was from Jesus, and testified to that for rest of his very long and fruitful life.  Their driver had a sudden fit of extreme competence, knew with all certainty how to evade, and did so with alacrity.



They often would not shoot recce ( or what they though was recce) if not fired on-- knowing that bigger fish were coming soon. Some brits claimed that they could venture to stop and have a smoke or venture relatively far in the lines knowing full well a division or units of-- the enemy knew they were there--in fact looking at them.  The defenders hoped that a deception ( not fireing) of all clear would  lure a colume into a killing zone. (If it was infantry coming in, they had a tendency to mine a field or (meadow), wait for the enemy to get in it and morter them once in their mines...) This way a small force could engage a sizeable one with effect.

By the way, from what I understand, most of the US tank battles, the spearhead of advances, were fought by the brave boys ( tank crews) from Florida in their inferiour shermans...


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand the importance of whether every creation did or didn't hear the Gospel as proclaimed by Paul. Either way there are people all over the world today who haven't heard of Jesus. Maybe their ancesters forgot to tell them. Maybe they got in a boat and moved away from civilization.  With all the new souls being born everyday it would appear the Great Commission is still needed.




I do remember why we were discussing this verse. I forgot we were talking about handling snakes and why we don't anymore. I don't see myself doing that. What I'd really like to know and the OP alluded  to wanting to discuss is what gifts do we have from the Holy Spirit? What does the Holy Spirit dwelling in us do for us? Does the Holy Spirit directly guide me? I'm not talking about the Bible(Holy Spirit).
Why did the Early Church need proof? Why don't we need proof?
The miracles found in modern medicine, aren't from God? We get no guidance or help from God(Holy Spirit) anymore just because we have a readable Bible?
I always pictured Satan on one shoulder and the Holy Spirit on my other shoulder both trying to influence me.
This is what I was taught growing up.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do remember why we were discussing this verse. I forgot we were talking about handling snakes and why we don't anymore. I don't see myself doing that. What I'd really like to know and the OP alluded  to wanting to discuss is what gifts do we have from the Holy Spirit? What does the Holy Spirit dwelling in us do for us? Does the Holy Spirit directly guide me? I'm not talking about the Bible(Holy Spirit).
> Why did the Early Church need proof? Why don't we need proof?
> The miracles found in modern medicine, aren't from God? We get no guidance or help from God(Holy Spirit) anymore just because we have a readable Bible?
> I always pictured Satan on one shoulder and the Holy Spirit on my other shoulder both trying to influence me.
> This is what I was taught growing up.



And scripture says that God's precepts will be written in our hearts. That our stone hearts will become flesh hearts. That He will do this. The spirit of Jesus in a saints' heart is a powerful guide.

While our carnal minds might struggle with the left and the right, our mind in Jesus is to the rest.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I think He is saying these signs will follow the Gospel going out to the world which we already know did.....
> 
> 
> Acts 1:8
> ...





clayservant said:


> So I guess nobody saw this ?
> 
> the gospel was preached to all the world already,
> Colossians 1:23
> ...



I started compiling a list of all the areas of the world which were already populated by the time Jesus was born; North America, South America, Australia, etc.  But it quickly became obvious that I should instead make a list of the areas which were not populated by that time.  

Other than the Artic areas which are still unpopulated today, I could only find a few of the Polynesian Islands and a few of the Islands in South East Asia, though most of the islands were populated.


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Excellent discussion and very helpful.  What sources are using to interpret the original Greek; very insightful analysis.  I appreciate your work.



I typically utilize Strong's concordance and the lexicon that is utilized in that publication.  I most often utilize the website "blueletterbible.com" when digger deeper into the original words.  As an example, the word I referenced above rendered "perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 can be found by clicking on the "C" symbol beside the verse when you get to it in BLB.  Once you click on the blue letters/numbers which refers to "Strong's word listing", it will pull up the definition of the word and how it's used in the bible.  Also, and I find this most helpful, if you scroll down below the definition, you'll find every single time the word in question was used in the entire testament (whether it was Hebrew or Greek).  It's because of that study that we can see the same word in 1 Corinthians 10:13 is found in Ephesians 4:13/James 1:25.



BT Charlie said:


> We do agree Jesus is alive in Heaven, yes? And the Holy Spirit indwells us? And communicates our needs to Jesus even when we're at a loss to do so?  And where did we land on the Spirit communicating Jesus' intent for us?  Do we agree the Spirit communicates joy and peace to us today?
> 
> And as for modern or surviving spiritual gifts, teaching, administration and so on, the body still has those today, in your view?  Many thnx



Yes, Jesus is alive in heaven (Romans 8:34).  I also believe he communicates our needs to God (Romans 8:26), though He doesn't have to indwell us to accomplish the task.  As far as the Holy Spirit indwelling, there are at least 4 views that are believed/taught.  I'll try summarize each one briefly below.

*  The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us and allows us the ability to do miraculous things (i.e. prophecy, tongues, etc.); in addition, He leads us in a way that is "separate and apart" from the written word; this "leading" is illustrated in Paul's experience in Acts 16:6-10.

*  The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us but doesn't allow us to do miraculous things any longer (tongues, prophecy, etc. have ceased); the "leading" of the Spirit, though, still occurs today - people still receive "signs" from God and say "the Spirit put x on my heart".

*  The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us, but no longer allows us to do miraculous things; nor does He lead us in a way which would be considered "separate and apart from the written word".

*  The Holy Spirit no longer personally dwells within us and, as a result, doesn't allow us to do miraculous things; under this view, the Spirit's work to "lead people into all truth" was accomplished with the inspiration of the NT"... where we see the teachings/examples of the apostles/early church; under this view the "Holy Spirit in us" would be one of "representation" - though He doesn't literally dwell within us, He does IF we embody His teachings from Scripture; primary to this view is that we are told multiple times in the NT that Jesus and Christ also "dwell/abide in us" (1 John 4:16, 2 Corinthians 6:16, John 15:4-5, John 6:56, John 14:22-23, Ephesians 3:17, and Galatians 2:20); is Scripture saying God/Jesus personally inhabits our bodies... or is Scripture saying "God/Christ dwells in us as long as we try to imitate them in our lives" (similar to how we'd say about someone "his father lives in him today")?

As to what I believe, I subscribe to the two latter views... because I believe 1 Corinthians 13:1ff and Ephesians 4:11ff teach that there would come a time when miraculous works and miraculous leading would no longer be needed.  When the written word was made available, as mentioned earlier, the purposes of these things would be able to be accomplished through the word.  

However, I'd say God works today in lives of believers in a "providential manner" (not miraculous).  The difference?  God working in ways which violate natural laws/design is "miraculous workings"... God working through natural laws and design is "providential workings."  A great illustration to help see the difference is two births in the bible - Jesus' and Samuel's.  Jesus' birth was done miraculously - conceiving a child apart from a man's semen was "apart from nature".  Samuel's birth, however, was "providential"... in that he was conceived/born THROUGH the natural processes which are of His design.

Here's an illustration today that might help.  Paul was told directly by God where he should go and teach the gospel - Acts seems to clearly bear this fact out.  How does God tell me where to go teach the gospel today?  Does he tell me in a similar direct way?  Or, does He open/close doors as I choose to take His message to others?  If I'm seeking to take the gospel to India, for example, if I constantly find the path blocked I'd conclude that God doesn't want to me to go to India at the current time.  Maybe later, maybe not at all, for their/mine/someone's else's good.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 17, 2013)

Yeah, we don't need signs and wonders because everybody reads the bible and gets saved. There are no voices out there who say that " the bible is just a book of old stories."
 If the gospel was preached to everyone, why hasn't Jesus returned? Matthew 24:14


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Yeah, we don't need signs and wonders because everybody reads the bible and gets saved. There are no voices out there who say that " the bible is just a book of old stories."
> If the gospel was preached to everyone, why hasn't Jesus returned? Matthew 24:14



He has .


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Bless you, gentlemen.
> 
> I hope you are correct, if nothing more for you to remain certain in your faith.
> Praise God.
> ...



Sorry if you were offended. I'm a bit charismatic at times when I find another brother seeing the same thing. It was basically an Amen to him, not a slap towards you.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> And scripture says that God's precepts will be written in our hearts. That our stone hearts will become flesh hearts. That He will do this. The spirit of Jesus in a saints' heart is a powerful guide.
> 
> While our carnal minds might struggle with the left and the right, our mind in Jesus is to the rest.



What is written in our hearts and how did it get there? Is it the Law? I'm not sure what that means. It makes it sound like we don't need to read the Bible anymore as it's in our hearts.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> *  The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us and allows us the ability to do miraculous things (i.e. prophecy, tongues, etc.); in addition, He leads us in a way that is "separate and apart" from the written word; this "leading" is illustrated in Paul's experience in Acts 16:6-10.
> 
> *  The Holy Spirit personally dwells within us but doesn't allow us to do miraculous things any longer (tongues, prophecy, etc. have ceased); the "leading" of the Spirit, though, still occurs today - people still receive "signs" from God and say "the Spirit put x on my heart".
> 
> ...



I would say I'm more aligned with #2.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> He has .



"Then shall the end come." 
So the gospel has been preached and the end has come. I must have missed that. 

What about all those who say the bible is a collection of men's stories? They don't get the same treatment as others, simply because they were born in the wrong time?
Why go to church? Or mission trips? Or your neighborhoods? The gospel has already been preached.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is written in our hearts and how did it get there? Is it the Law? I'm not sure what that means. It makes it sound like we don't need to read the Bible anymore as it's in our hearts.



Good greef no. It is a promise of God that his precepts are to be a feature of our redemption to the faith--- as it was with Abraham. So please, please read the bible. The promise is the rebuilding of the human spirit to what it is meant to be. And it is meant to be the spirit of the second Adam...This is what we are born again to. So who sees scripture for what it is and what it says?  Who is capable of this? The man born from bellow or the man born from above?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Sorry if you were offended. I'm a bit charismatic at times when I find another brother seeing the same thing. It was basically an Amen to him, not a slap towards you.



Absolutely no offense taken, Mr Hobbs.  May the same be true for you with respect to me.  Blessings


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Why go to church? Or mission trips? Or your neighborhoods? The gospel has already been preached.



There's clear biblical evidence that all of Matthew 24 is complete, and was fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70ad.

Why go to church? To worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!

 Mission trips, neighborhoods?  I don't know.

This Gospel went out to the whole world as the world was known at that time. The Kingdom of God is like a mustard seed that has sprouted and grown into a wonderful tall plant with limbs strong enough to hold foul from the air.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> "Then shall the end come."
> So the gospel has been preached and the end has come. I must have missed that.
> 
> What about all those who say the bible is a collection of men's stories? They don't get the same treatment as others, simply because they were born in the wrong time?
> Why go to church? Or mission trips? Or your neighborhoods? The gospel has already been preached.





My ship came in, and I was at the bus depot?


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is written in our hearts and how did it get there? Is it the Law? I'm not sure what that means. It makes it sound like we don't need to read the Bible anymore as it's in our hearts.



The passage you refer to, 2 Corinthians 3:3, was absolutely true in that day and time.  When Paul wrote this letter, the word of God (outside of Paul's letters to them) solely was found in people who possessed supernatural gifts such as prophecy, knowledge, etc.  Thus, Paul was contrasting the law of God (at that time) with any man-made law/possibly the law of Moses also (laws written on stone tablets).

You're absolutely right with your last statement... until you turn over to 2 Timothy 2:15 and read "rightly handling the word of truth"... then read 2 Peter 3:16  and realize Paul's letters were already being considered as "Scripture" along with "other letters"... and then read John 10:35 and notice that Scripture cannot be broken.


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> There's clear biblical evidence that all of Matthew 24 is complete, and was fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70ad.



Agree, but also disagree with this observation.  When we read Matthew 24:1-3, we observe the apostle's asking two (not one) question.  First, in making His observation in verses 1-2, Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple (which would occur in AD 70).  After hearing Him speak of this, notice what the apostles asked Him privately in verse 3...

"Tell us, when will these things be (the things Jesus spoke of in verse 2 - destruction of the temple), and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age (2nd coming of Christ - the Day of Judgment)."  Thus, they wanted info concerning (1) the destruction of the temple and (2) the day when Jesus would return and the "age" would be ended.  The rest of Matthew 24 deals with answers to the questions posed by the apostles... so it's important to know when He was speaking to each question in the chapter.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> There's clear biblical evidence that all of Matthew 24 is complete, and was fulfilled at the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem in 70ad.
> 
> Why go to church? To worship the King of Kings and Lord of Lords!
> 
> ...





HawgJawl said:


> I started compiling a list of all the areas of the world which were already populated by the time Jesus was born; North America, South America, Australia, etc.  But it quickly became obvious that I should instead make a list of the areas which were not populated by that time.
> 
> Other than the Artic areas which are still unpopulated today, I could only find a few of the Polynesian Islands and a few of the Islands in South East Asia, though most of the islands were populated.



There are many maps available on-line illustrating the travel routes of the disciples and the apostles all around the Mediterranean Sea, some even as far west as Brittain and as far south as Ethiopia.  If you have found one that shows them going to North America, South America, or Australia please point me to it.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> "Tell us, when will these things be (the things Jesus spoke of in verse 2 - destruction of the temple), and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age (2nd coming of Christ - the Day of Judgment)."  Thus, they wanted info concerning (1) the destruction of the temple and (2) the day when Jesus would return and the "age" would be ended.  The rest of Matthew 24 deals with answers to the questions posed by the apostles... so it's important to know when He was speaking to each question in the chapter.



I'm at deer camp and responding with my phone so I can't get into too much detail, but I don't see anywhere in Matthew 24 that Jesus suggest his coming would be a long wait.. matter of fact he said within those standing there lives...IMO He is referring to the Judgement of Israel, and His appearing that was documented by Josephus. Not the Final consummation when all saved folks are caught up to a cloud to be with Jesus...


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm at deer camp and responding with my phone so I can't get into too much detail, but I don't see anywhere in Matthew 24 that Jesus suggest his coming would be a long wait.. matter of fact he said within those standing there lives...IMO He is referring to the Judgement of Israel, and His appearing that was documented by Josephus. Not the Final consummation when all saved folks are caught up to a cloud to be with Jesus...



Wow. I just can't see it being fulfilled, especially from verse 30 onward. I think I need a special bible from you guys that only has those scriptures which specifically address myself. 
That way, I won't be bothered by all those unnecessary scriptures that had an expiration date on them.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 17, 2013)

Oh, and good hunting Hobbs!!


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm at deer camp and responding with my phone so I can't get into too much detail, but I don't see anywhere in Matthew 24 that Jesus suggest his coming would be a long wait.. matter of fact he said within those standing there lives...IMO He is referring to the Judgement of Israel, and His appearing that was documented by Josephus. Not the Final consummation when all saved folks are caught up to a cloud to be with Jesus...



Hobbs... can see where you'd get the idea except for one part of the passage - verse 3.  The disciples asked "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age."

"End of the age" is IMO the key idea to understanding two different questions are being posed.  Reference that same saying in the NT and you'll see that "end of the age" appears in four places in Matthew.  I believe in looking at the other three that you'll come to agree with me.


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## David Parker (Oct 17, 2013)

Looking forwrd to Tuesday.  new episode hopefully.  Missed the last one.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Hobbs... can see where you'd get the idea except for one part of the passage - verse 3.  The disciples asked "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age."
> 
> "End of the age" is IMO the key idea to understanding two different questions are being posed.  Reference that same saying in the NT and you'll see that "end of the age" appears in four places in Matthew.  I believe in looking at the other three that you'll come to agree with me.



I will look into that deeper when I have some more resources available. In the meantime check this out if you have time...   http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Oh, and good hunting Hobbs!!



Thanks. I'm getting rained on right now but this trip has already been a success. My middle daughter which is a senior in high school came with me, and she got a doe this morning. Were trying to spend quality time together as her plans are to go straight into the air force once she graduates. I'm truly blessed she is willing to spend some time with old dad.


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I will look into that deeper when I have some more resources available. In the meantime check this out if you have time...   http://www.tentmaker.org/books/heavenandearth.htm



Hobbs... I don't disagree with what he's saying here.  From what I can understand, 24:35 is the last verse in the chapter which deals with the details concerning the destruction of Jerusalem/temple.  It is in verse 36 that Jesus begins to answer the second question - "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"  Wholly agree that the section in 24:4-35 deals with the destruction of Jerusalem/temple... which subsequently changed Judaism from that point forward.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

Hobbs, so glad you had a great day with your daughter.

Bama, many thanks for your clarity in your post above.  I will try to respond to it in more detail when I can.  

I gather  you do not believe the second coming of Christ has yet 
occurred, correct?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Wow. I just can't see it being fulfilled, especially from verse 30 onward. I think I need a special bible from you guys that only has those scriptures which specifically address myself.
> That way, I won't be bothered by all those unnecessary scriptures that had an expiration date on them.



It appears to be a very small Bible, I need one too. I understand it's all needed for teaching. I have one of those Bibles, I want one with every verse highlighted that personally pertains to me.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Hobbs... I don't disagree with what he's saying here.  From what I can understand, 24:35 is the last verse in the chapter which deals with the details concerning the destruction of Jerusalem/temple.  It is in verse 36 that Jesus begins to answer the second question - "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"  Wholly agree that the section in 24:4-35 deals with the destruction of Jerusalem/temple... which subsequently changed Judaism from that point forward.



So you believe the parousia was 70 ad, but @ verse 35 Jesus refers to the end?


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> I gather  you do not believe the second coming of Christ has yet occurred, correct?



Correct... still in the future.


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## Bama4me (Oct 17, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> So you believe the parousia was 70 ad, but @ verse 35 Jesus refers to the end?



The "parousia" seems for the most part to refer to the 2nd coming of Christ in the NT... after which the world will be burned up and people will be judged.  However, the "parousia" mentioned in 24:27 obviously refers to the destruction of Jerusalem/temple.  I see verse 35 being the last verse in the section answering the question "when will these things (destruction of Jerusalem/temple) be?"

Verse 36 and following moves to the second question.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

Hobbs, it is fascinating to me, in a very humble posture, to share your thinking.  Your first link discusses a most literal interpretation of Jesus' comments in Mark 16, as well as Acts, yet your perception of Matthew turns on a necessary construction importing metaphor or hyperbole to Jesus.  At the same time, I lean toward the NIV study bible crew and others who largely construe Paul as employing hyperbole with respect to gospel preached to all creation.

Our testimony is Jesus is Lord.  Yet like making sausage the fixings we use may not be so appealing to one another....  Any deer down?


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## BT Charlie (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Correct... still in the future.



I owe you for your work helping us on this.  Again, many thanks.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Agree, but also disagree with this observation.  When we read Matthew 24:1-3, we observe the apostle's asking two (not one) question.  First, in making His observation in verses 1-2, Jesus was referring to the destruction of the temple (which would occur in AD 70).  After hearing Him speak of this, notice what the apostles asked Him privately in verse 3...
> 
> "Tell us, when will these things be (the things Jesus spoke of in verse 2 - destruction of the temple), and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age (2nd coming of Christ - the Day of Judgment)."  Thus, they wanted info concerning (1) the destruction of the temple and (2) the day when Jesus would return and the "age" would be ended.  The rest of Matthew 24 deals with answers to the questions posed by the apostles... so it's important to know when He was speaking to each question in the chapter.



I find this whole "when will we know" chapters in Matthew & Mark confusing. Didn't the Apostles ask Jesus when would they know? Didn't Jesus answer after the whole world has heard the gospel, in your generation?

Mark 13:8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
(beginning of birth pains?) 

 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. But then he says "For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect." (even the elect?)

At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Messiah!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it

"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it
See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.
(us or the Apostles? Either way it's still confusing.)

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. "Tell us," they said, "when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"
(This doesn't sound like a different line of questioning from the Temple destruction.)

Then Jesus tells them(not me) to watch and that no one deceives them, over & over. But it's like there's nothing you can do about it. There will be wars, but again nothing you can do about it so don't be alarmed.

Then believers will be put to death, Christians will fall away
(Can they do that), and more false prophets show up to deceive people. Love of fellow man will diminish. 

but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
(what happened to blessed assurance?)

Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.(what flight?)

In fact, unless that time of calamity is shortened, not a single person will survive. But it will be shortened for the sake of God's chosen ones.
 (why mention this knowing full well the elect will survive, unless lead ashtray by the decievers.)

"But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
(If Jesus is God, why doesn't he know?)

We have been warned but there is nothing we can do because we don't know when it will happen.

Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near, right at the door.
(So we will know after all)

All I can say is "and we think Revelations is confusing.
I can't say for sure  all this happened in 70 AD or it hasn't happened yet. It doesn't appear that it has.
Either way we have been warned to; standfast, be on your guard, keep watch, be ready, be vigilant, and most of all "endure till the end."


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## hobbs27 (Oct 18, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Hobbs, it is fascinating to me, in a very humble posture, to share your thinking.  Your first link discusses a most literal interpretation of Jesus' comments in Mark 16, as well as Acts, yet your perception of Matthew turns on a necessary construction importing metaphor or hyperbole to Jesus.  At the same time, I lean toward the NIV study bible crew and others who largely construe Paul as employing hyperbole with respect to gospel preached to all creation.
> 
> Our testimony is Jesus is Lord.  Yet like making sausage the fixings we use may not be so appealing to one another....  Any deer down?



BT , I know my interpretation of Matthew 24 is a minority position, and many people have never even considered it. In light of the left behind series of books by Tim Lahaye (sp?) It has become a more popular position as people realize just how out of text lahayes scenario is.

 I understand if you have always been taught and always considered Matthew 24 to be about the end times in our future that you would think I'm taking a position of hyperbole non literal interpretation, but when you study the words, and terms Jesus is using and you consider the history it becomes more literal IMO. The end of the world/age spoken of at that time was about the end of the Jewish age and complete fulfillment of the Old Testament, the destruction of the temple prevents Jews from sacrificing animals, they are no longer able to practice their religion fully.

 I see a future ressurection and judgement from what I've read in parts of the Epistles and Revelations. I just don't see where Matthew 24 is connected to this, although I have to dig over some notes and recheck some things when I get home about verse 35 on to decide on bamas point.

The hunting is good and there's more daytime buck activity according to our cameras than there has been in a long time..I'm holding out for one in particular. Have a great day.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

The lesson of the Fig Tree
32"Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; 33so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door.…

Why did Jesus add this to his answer or how does it help us know?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 18, 2013)

Maybe this will be helpful.

Matthew 24:32-39

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation 
shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. (Mark 13:28-32; Luke 21:29-33)
Of course we now come to the central point of contention that got this started. Jesus speaks of these things happening within "this generation." The dispensational paradigm is required to understand "this generation" in other ways (i.e., the race of Jews, for example) but we have seen that there is no need for this. The generation Jesus spoke to saw these things fulfilled.

At this point the discourses diverge substantially. Mark 13 continues the discourse to verse 37 with admonitions to be watchful. Luke 21:34-6 does the same; Luke however, does place the "Noah" warning at 17:25 and adds a comparison to Sodom and Gomorrah. The warnings are good to go under any paradigm, and with that we leave Mark's version of the discourse behind. We pick up with Matt. 24:40 and parallel:

Matthew 24:40-1

Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Luke 18:35-6 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Another "rapture" passage? "Taken" into the air, perhaps? Maybe not, and maybe the "taken" one is not the good guy at all:

Jer 6:11 Therefore I am full of the fury of the LORD; I am weary with holding in: I will pour it out upon the children abroad, and upon the assembly of young men together: for even the husband with the wife shall be taken, the aged with him that is full of days.
Furthermore, note the parallel in the previous passage in which the wicked are the ones "taken" by the Flood .Those taken, are taken in judgment by the impending judgment on Jerusalem and Judaea, which would be no respecter of persons. That this is not a "rapture" verse is clear in that this is where Luke places the Matthew 24:28 remark about carcasses


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## Bama4me (Oct 18, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I find this whole "when will we know" chapters in Matthew & Mark confusing. Didn't the Apostles ask Jesus when would they know? Didn't Jesus answer after the whole world has heard the gospel, in your generation?
> 
> Mark 13:8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.
> (beginning of birth pains?)
> ...



Art... there are portions of this discussion found in both Mark and Luke as well.  In those places, it seems the topic is the destruction of Jerusalem.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, go to a concordance and look up "end of the age" (some versions say world).  When you do, you will realize what the question pertained to... remember that the best commentary on the bible IS the bible.

In addition, you see in Matthew 24 a marked difference between the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world. One, the Jerusalem destruction, would come after many signs had been provided.  The other, the coming of Christ, would come without warning whatsoever.  As to "why didn't Jesus know the timing of His coming, this evidently was a piece of information He chose not to know during His incarnation.  I'd venture to say He does know that information now.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Maybe this will be helpful.
> 
> Matthew 24:32-39
> 
> ...



Interesting concept on the negative rapture and the flood. I still don't get the fig tree parable, is it to let us know when Jerusalem will be destroyed or the end of time?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> Art... there are portions of this discussion found in both Mark and Luke as well.  In those places, it seems the topic is the destruction of Jerusalem.  As I mentioned earlier in the thread, go to a concordance and look up "end of the age" (some versions say world).  When you do, you will realize what the question pertained to... remember that the best commentary on the bible IS the bible.
> 
> In addition, you see in Matthew 24 a marked difference between the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the world. One, the Jerusalem destruction, would come after many signs had been provided.  The other, the coming of Christ, would come without warning whatsoever.  As to "why didn't Jesus know the timing of His coming, this evidently was a piece of information He chose not to know during His incarnation.  I'd venture to say He does know that information now.



I don't see the "marked difference." Jesus said there will be many warnings; false messiah's, wars, famines, earthquakes, Christians put to death, Christians falling away, false prophets, more wickedness, less love, &  the Gospel being preached to the whole world.

Then after all of this the discourse reverts back to the destruction of Jerusalem and describes the fleeing process.
How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

I can't say for sure what event this is discribing but it is definitey only one event or a series of even happening all around the same time. Jesus constantly used terms like, “soon”, "shortly”, “quickly”, “near”, “at hand”, and “about to be”.  
I don't see how you can say he was discussing the destruction of Jerusalem, switching to another far off time, and then returning to the destruction of Jerusalem in the same discourse.

Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself, when did the discource switch from the destruction of Jerusalem?


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## oldfella1962 (Oct 18, 2013)

Drinking poison - handling venomous snakes...child's play.
I'll give them ten seconds to live at best with my wife's cooking.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 18, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Interesting concept on the negative rapture and the flood. I still don't get the fig tree parable, is it to let usknow when Jerusalem will be destroyed or the end of time?



My understanding is no. Jesus was telling His disciples what they were to look for ( that generation) .


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2013)

"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the wilderness,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.
(more like places the disciples would look for him)

"Immediately after the distress of those days "'the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
(those days?)

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.
(is this really at a later time or immediately after the distress of those days?)

Gill's Exposition:
Immediately after the tribulation of those days,.... That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, Matthew 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple, 

(He must be a Preterist) (a day isn't a thousand years because of the words used to describe the urgency as immdeiately)


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## BT Charlie (Oct 18, 2013)

oldfella1962 said:


> Drinking poison - handling venomous snakes...child's play.
> I'll give them ten seconds to live at best with my wife's cooking.





Bless your heart.  I am putting you on our prayer list ... .


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## Bama4me (Oct 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see the "marked difference." Jesus said there will be many warnings; false messiah's, wars, famines, earthquakes, Christians put to death, Christians falling away, false prophets, more wickedness, less love, &  the Gospel being preached to the whole world.
> 
> Then after all of this the discourse reverts back to the destruction of Jerusalem and describes the fleeing process.
> How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
> ...



You see NO change from the content of 4-35 and 36ff?  You don't see that one of the events would only come after many signs had been given... the other not even the angels knew about?  After I posted the information about the nature of the question in verses 2-3, did you go look up "end of the age"?  The transitional word "but" in verse 36 is very important also.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 20, 2013)

Maybe this has been pointed out..... I got tired of reading to see if it had. That portion of Mark is not in early manuscripts. It was clearly added by a future scribe who did not like how the original Mark ended abruptly. Just google and see the evidence


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Maybe this has been pointed out..... I got tired of reading to see if it had. That portion of Mark is not in early manuscripts. It was clearly added by a future scribe who did not like how the original Mark ended abruptly. Just google and see the evidence



Bonjour..  Its going to be a hard sale to get folks in here to question the bible from info on an internet site.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2013)

Bama4me said:


> You see NO change from the content of 4-35 and 36ff?  You don't see that one of the events would only come after many signs had been given... the other not even the angels knew about?  After I posted the information about the nature of the question in verses 2-3, did you go look up "end of the age"?  The transitional word "but" in verse 36 is very important also.



Im going to try to break it down and maybe we can stay together on this...just feel free to correct me when you see errors or opinions that is not yours..



1 And Jesus went out , and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down .
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately , saying , Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

_Above we see to whom the conversation is. Jesus and His disciples. The question from the disciples to Jesus, " When shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and the end of the world? I see the sign of thy coming and the end of the world as two parts of the same question here hence the coma._

The Answer

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying , I am Christ; and shall deceive many.6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled : for all these things must come to pass , but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended , and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise , and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall wax cold .
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come .
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand :
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be .
22 And except those days should be shortened , there should no flesh be saved : but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened .
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo , here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold , I have told you before .
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold , he is in the desert; go not forth : behold , he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
28 For wheresoever the carcase is , there will the eagles be gathered together .
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened , and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken :
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn , and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other .
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass , till all these things be fulfilled.

_So at this point we are in agreement? This is fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD? Read verse 30...what do you think..the parousia? Maybe the appearing of Jesus as documented by Josephus?_


36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be 
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken , and the other left .
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken , and the other left .
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come .
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come , he would have watched , and would not have suffered his house to be broken up .
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh .
45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall findso doing .
47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods .
48 But and if that evil servant shall sayin his heart, My lord delayeth his coming ;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunken ;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of ,51 And shall cut him asunder , and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 

_Please explain how this is all suppose to be future to us...I understand it is future in its text but all these things that I see can be answered in the destruction of the temple and judgement on Israel in 70 AD...No recorded Christian deaths in the seige...They must have been looking for the signs and fled._


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## Bama4me (Oct 21, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
> 37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be .
> 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking , marrying and giving in marriage , until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
> 39 And knew not until the flood came , and took them all away ; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be
> ...



This section (36-50), from indications in the text, would answer the second question - "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?"  As cited earlier, notice the usage of "the end of the age" in other places which makes it clear the apostles were asking about the end of the world (not the Jerusalem destruction).

Matthew 13:39-40 - "The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age."

Matthew 13:49 - "So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous."

Matthew 28:20 - "And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age."

Regarding the use of "parousia" in both sections, the term in verse 27 and 30 refers to Jesus' judgment in the coming destruction of Jerusalem.  In verses 37 and 39, the term refers to the second coming of Christ.  Although it seems a bit confusing to see the word used in two senses in this chapter, we should remember "the day of the Lord" was used in the same way in the bible.  Especially when it was used in the OT, "the day of the Lord" referred to an upcoming event when God would allow the COI to suffer due to the disobedience.  However, that same term is also used to refer to the second coming of Christ also.

Besides the definite question of verse 3 and the transitional word "but" in verse 36, there is a marked distinction in verses 4-35 and 36-51.  Prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, there would be...
* wars and rumors of wars (6)
* nation rising against nation (same w/ kingdoms; 6)
* famines/earthquakes in various places (6)
* persecution of Christians (9)
* great falling away, betrayal, hatred (10)
* rise of false prophets (10)
* gospel proclaimed worldwide (14)
* abomination of desolation predicted in OT (15)
* rise of false prophets/false christs (24)
* celestial signs (29)

Now... contrast that with what is written of the coming of Christ in 36ff.
* no one knows day/hour except the Father (36)
* come upon people like the flood (unexpected, 37-39)
* the day is not known (42)
* resemble the coming of a thief in the night (43)
* will be unexpected (44)
* should motivate people to work and watch (45ff)

To me, it's obvious that Jesus was foretelling two very different events from the information in the text. One event, the destruction of Jerusalem, would come after many signs were given (which Christians should have been watching for so they could safely escape). The other event Jesus' physical second coming, would occur without any hints/signs whatsoever.  It's important to realize both events pertain to Christ's "judging"... however, they are two separate things.  Maybe this better explains what I've been trying to say.


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## Bama4me (Oct 21, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Maybe this has been pointed out..... I got tired of reading to see if it had. That portion of Mark is not in early manuscripts. It was clearly added by a future scribe who did not like how the original Mark ended abruptly. Just google and see the evidence



Would hardly say it is "clearly added"... as this excerpt demonstrates.

"Because Mark 16:9-20 is missing from two of the oldest Greek manuscripts, and from some of the early versions, and because of certain perceived problems in the continuity between 16:9ff and the preceding context, most textual critics today question the genuineness of this section. That is, they dispute that it was a part of Mark’s original Gospel (see Robertson, Metzger, etc.). It must be noted though, that some of these men concede that this disputed segment of the final chapter of Mark nonetheless reflects the inspired teaching of Jesus (Grassmick, 194). On the other hand, the genuineness of the text has been defended ably by some very respectable scholars (e.g., Scrivener, Burgon, McGarvey, Lenski.)"

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/605-assault-upon-mark-16-16-the


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## hobbs27 (Oct 22, 2013)

The end of the age.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/series/last_days_according_to_jesus/the-end-of-the-age/?


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 22, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well. (NIV)
> 
> So against this backdrop, have you seen the "reality" television series on cable, "Snake Salvation?" (Maybe somebody could find and post a link to cover my weakness.)
> 
> ...



Personally I think it's just another example of people placing more emphasis on a tree instead of the forest.  I don't think it a mistake that a child can understand that God loves us and wants to save us, but gets befuddled by deeper doctrines.


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## David Parker (Oct 22, 2013)

new episode t'night i thank.   This thread is not about the NG Channel reality show is it?  tee hee


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## barryl (Oct 22, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well. (NIV)
> 
> So against this backdrop, have you seen the "reality" television series on cable, "Snake Salvation?" (Maybe somebody could find and post a link to cover my weakness.)
> 
> ...


  I am suprised to see that no one has mentioned how "decieved" these folks are. This junk is "False Doctrine." The low down bunch that brought this stuff to the Mtn. folks is no differant than the fake, corrupt, "Faith Healers." Plainly trying to put these folks back under O.T.{Mosaic Law}{Faith+Works}{Dragging N.T. Christians back under law} 2Tim.2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 22, 2013)

David Parker said:


> new episode t'night i thank.   This thread is not about the NG Channel reality show is it?  tee hee




Yes, David, it's on now. This series inspired the thread.  What do you think about their doctrine? And how do you think Christians are portrayed generally by the series? Is Christ glorified by the series?  Thnx


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## BT Charlie (Oct 22, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Personally I think it's just another example of people placing more emphasis on a tree instead of the forest.  I don't think it a mistake that a child can understand that God loves us and wants to save us, but gets befuddled by deeper doctrines.



Thanks SemperFiDawg.  Good points.


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## BT Charlie (Oct 22, 2013)

barryl said:


> I am suprised to see that no one has mentioned how "decieved" these folks are. This junk is "False Doctrine." The low down bunch that brought this stuff to the Mtn. folks is no differant than the fake, corrupt, "Faith Healers." Plainly trying to put these folks back under O.T.{Mosaic Law}{Faith+Works}{Dragging N.T. Christians back under law} 2Tim.2:15 Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.




One of the pastor's grandpas basically denied this interpretation of Mark 16 on tonight's episode.  

"He didn't get that [doctrine] from me," papaw saix. Basically papaw said his grandson looks at one small 
portion of the Bible, while not considering the rest.  "It doesn't work like he thinks it does," papaw said.

I like GemCrew's quip on double portions: handling snakes in two pieces....


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## hobbs27 (Feb 16, 2014)

SHOWS OVER!

http://www.deadline.com/2014/02/snake-salvation-pastor-jamie-coots-dead-snake-bite/


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## BT Charlie (Feb 16, 2014)

A time for everything...


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 16, 2014)

Isn't it part of the Great Commission? I would think if one was going to speak in tongues, cast out demons, lay hands on sick people, then they would want to pick up serpents and drink poison. 
I don't perform any of those things. I did see a preacher or priest laying his hands on a patient at a hospital the other day. Why pick and choose?


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## chainshaw (Feb 16, 2014)

The series finale is going to be a doozy!


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## 1222DANO (Feb 18, 2014)

I read that the Pastor Jamey Coots died from a snake bite.. i was reading about it today..


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## Israel (Jul 19, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> Paul's snake bite: cause--acciedent; remedy-- faith in Jesus Christ; result--healing (Acts 28:1-6). Immunity from poisons and snake bites is promised all believers (Mark 16: 17-20; Luke 10:19; Ps. 91). This does not mean, however that believers can tempt God and get by with it by deliberately drinking poison and getting snake-bitten, as some foolish and ignorant people do today.
> The Greek word for "take up" in Mark 16:18 is airo. The way it is used and the example of men taking up things shows its true meaning. It is translated "take away" and used of Christ taking away the sins of the world (John 1:29; 1 John 3:5); of branches being cut off the vine (John 15:2); of the bodies of Christ and the thieves being removed from the crosses (John 19:31,38); of fornicator being excommunicated from the corinthian church ( 1 Cor.5:2); of taking a man away to prison (Matt. 22:13); of the removal of a stone from the grave of Lazarus (John 11:39); of the destruction of a nation (John 11:48); and of the removal of knowledge and judgment (Luke 11:52; Acts 8:35).
> It is also translated "put away" concerning the removal of sin from the life (Eph 4:31); "took it out of the way" referring to abolishing the law of moses on the cross (Col. 2: 14-17); "remove" referring to a literal mountain being cast into the sea (Matt. 21:21; Mark 11:23); and "away with" referring to the destruction or murder of Jesus Christ and Paul (Luke 23:18; John 19:15; Acts 21:36; 22:22).
> It is never used of making a side-show of the thing that is to be removed, destroyed, or done away with, so the modern snake-handling fanaticism is not biblical, to say the least. If men would remove them like Paul, the only example of how to take up snakes in the New Testament, then it would be biblical. Paul shook the viper into the fire and destroyed it (Acts 28:1-6). If men would use power, if they have real power from God, to heal the sick and do something really worth while for humanity, then they would show some intelligence and they would be a blessing.
> One can go to India and other heathen lands and see better demonstrations of snake-handling than modern fanatics of religion who make a side-show of the gospel idea of power over all the power of the devil, as taught in Luke 10: 19; Ps. 91. These passages simply mean that believers can have power over all enemies, but they never mean to bring reproach upon the gospel by trying to show people that they have power.



I love from whom you received that wisdom.


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## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2014)

My Granny always said use common sense. Her explanation of this is if your doing a work for God and just say your baptizing someone in the river and you get snake bit or swept off by swift water, you got the hand of God covering you. Or if someone spikes up your cup without your knowlege. But if you want to tempt God and jump in the water knowing you can't swim or turn up a gallon of antifreeze........you get what you get. But of course she read from KJV and if you read that from a lawyers view getting technical with words, you will get a different understanding of it.


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## Spotlite (Jul 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Isn't it part of the Great Commission? I would think if one was going to speak in tongues, cast out demons, lay hands on sick people, then they would want to pick up serpents and drink poison.
> I don't perform any of those things. I did see a preacher or priest laying his hands on a patient at a hospital the other day. Why pick and choose?


Preaching teaching and Baptizing is part of the great commission. Snakes, poison, bad dogs, kids that kick, people that cuss you out, people that shoot you birds.........., just hazards associated, and of course the ole saying is true, if you don't want to get hit by a car, don't play in the road


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## Artfuldodger (Jul 28, 2014)

Spotlite said:


> Preaching teaching and Baptizing is part of the great commission. Snakes, poison, bad dogs, kids that kick, people that cuss you out, people that shoot you birds.........., just hazards associated, and of course the ole saying is true, if you don't want to get hit by a car, don't play in the road



I think it is a part of the Great Commission, now perhaps it doesn't apply to us as it did when or to whom it was written. You can't stop the commission after verse 16:

Mark 16:14-18

14 Later Jesus appeared to the Eleven as they were eating; he rebuked them for their lack of faith and their stubborn refusal to believe those who had seen him after he had risen. 
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”


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