# God's Elect



## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

While the subject of this thread has been an object of controversy for many, for those who know the truth and are born of God it is a subject of great consolation and comfort. 

The doctrine of election as taught in the Holy Scriptures has become over the years one of the most precious teachings of Scripture to me. For me, this teaching of Scripture so magnifies and glorifies the grace of Almighty God that I am sometimes at a loss of words to express it. 

Like many, I have a great appreciation for the work and ministry of the late C.H. Spurgeon. His sermon on election is one of the best I have read. Here are some excerpts here and encourage you to read the sermon in its entirety. 

May the Lord bless you and cause His grace and mercy to abound toward His elect. 

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0041.htm
Election
Delivered on Sabbath Morning, September 2, 1855, by the
REV. C. H. Spurgeon
At New Park Street Chapel, Southwark.

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ."—2 Thessalonians 2:13-14.


IF there were no other text in the sacred Word except this one, I think we should all be bound to receive and acknowledge the truthfulness of the great and glorious doctrine of God's ancient choice of his family. But there seems to be an inveterate prejudice in the human mind against this doctrine; and although most other doctrines will be received by professing Christians, some with caution, others with pleasure, yet this one seems to be most frequently disregarded and discarded. In many of our pulpits it would be reckoned a high sin and treason to preach a sermon upon election, because they could not make it what they call a "practical" discourse. I believe they have erred from the truth therein. Whatever God has revealed, he has revealed for a purpose. There is nothing in Scripture which may not, under the influence of God's Spirit, be turned into a practical discourse: for "all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable" for some purpose of spiritual usefulness. It is true, it may not be turned into a free-will discourse—that we know right well—but it can be turned into a practical free-grace discourse: and free-grace practice is the best practice, when the true doctrines of God's immutable love are brought to bear upon the hearts of saints and sinners. 


Now, I trust this morning some of you who are startled at the very sound of this word, will say, "I will give it a fair hearing; I will lay aside my prejudices; I will just hear what this man has to say." Do not shut your ears and say at once, "It is high doctrine." Who has authorized you to call it high or low? Why should you oppose yourself to God's doctrine? Remember what became of the children who found fault with God's prophet, and exclaimed, "Go up, thou bald-head; go up, thou bald-head." Say nothing against God's doctrines, lest haply some evil beast should come out of the forest and devour you also. There are other woes beside the open judgment of heaven— take heed that these fall not on your head. Lay aside your prejudices: listen calmly, listen dispassionately: hear what Scripture says; and when you receive the truth, if God should be pleased to reveal and manifest it to your souls, do not be ashamed to confess it. 

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0041.htm


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## celticfisherman (Mar 6, 2009)

THank goodness for Calvinists!!!


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

The Gospel teaches that Jesus Christ is available to all who will turn to him and believe with all their heart.
There was a time when this was only available to Jews.  But these Christians at Thessalonica are told by Paul (the minister to Gentiles) that God planned from the beginning for even the Gentiles to have access to the blood of Jesus. 
2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is a reassurance to all of "The Way".
It is not a statement of God's selfish withholding of the opportunity for salvation to anyone.
It is a statement to the openness of God

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that* all should come to repentance*" (II Peter 3:9). 

Romans 2:11, 9There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 
10but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 
11For there is no partiality with God. 
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 
13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 

*No one will spend eternity in h e l l simply because God did not chose allow them the opportunity to turn to Christ.


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> The Gospel teaches that Jesus Christ is available to all who will turn to him and believe with all their heart.
> There was a time when this was only available to Jews.  But these Christians at Thessalonica are told by Paul (the minister to Gentiles) that God planned from the beginning for even the Gentiles to have access to the blood of Jesus.
> 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 is a reassurance to all of "The Way".
> It is not a statement of God's selfish withholding of the opportunity for salvation to anyone.
> ...



Your explaination is actually the exact opposite of what the Scripture actually says. This is why I left evangelicalism. Many seem more interested in maintaining a traditional belief than reforming their belief by the Word of God.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

Thought this applied here as well....



Double Barrel BB said:


> *Rabbi Duncan Preached to Those Who Couldn't Come*
> 
> 
> March 6, 2009 | By: John Piper
> ...


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> *No one will spend eternity in h e l l simply because God did not chose allow them the opportunity to turn to Christ.


 
Brother RT,

Where is this said in Scripture?

DB BB


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Your explaination is actually the exact opposite of what the Scripture actually says. This is why I left evangelicalism. Many seem more interested in maintaining a traditional belief than reforming their belief by the Word of God.  Seem to me that you and others are the one's who are guilty of that




I have no traditional beliefs. 

You'll never see me quoting from Spurgeon or anyone else outside God's word to prove a belief.

Don't let the word "elect" fool you.


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## Free Willie (Mar 6, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> While the subject of this thread has been an object of controversy for many, for those who know the truth and are born of God it is a subject of great consolation and comfort.
> 
> The doctrine of election as taught in the Holy Scriptures has become over the years one of the most precious teachings of Scripture to me. For me, this teaching of Scripture so magnifies and glorifies the grace of Almighty God that I am sometimes at a loss of words to express it.
> 
> ...















There ya go!


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I have no traditional beliefs.
> 
> You'll never see me quoting from Spurgeon or anyone else outside God's word to prove a belief.
> 
> Don't let the word "elect" fool you.



I would encourage you Ronnie, that you could be blindsided on this one. It is possible you do have traditional beliefs, as well as me. I am always open to holding somethign by tradtition rather than by Scripture. 

There is nothing wrong with quoting Spurgeon. Let me ask you brother, do you attend a church? Are you member there? Do they preach? 

If so, why would you be against a sermon by the late Spurgeon and not your own pastor, or your own commentary on this very thread! 

Saying I am quoting Spurgeon to prove a doctrine is erroneous and unfair. I shared, as a I stated, what I believe is a very good treatment of the subject. 

Now, you warned me not to be confused by the word elect. The word elect and election is a biblical word and bibilcal doctrine. 

You and I may see differently at the moment its meaning, but it neither one of us, if we claim to be Bible Christians, can deny that the Bible teaches the doctrine of election.

If we are to discuss this as gentlemen, let's try not to get to heated about it. If I have been heated or have come accross that way, I apologize.


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

Free Willie said:


> There ya go!




Hey folks, don't feed these trolls. lol


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Brother RT,
> 
> Where is this said in Scripture?
> 
> DB BB





John 3:  16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> John 3: 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


 
Did He say that everyone would be given the chance? I guess we can go back to debate the whole does world realy mean world?

DB BB


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I would encourage you Ronnie, that you could be blindsided on this one. It is possible you do have traditional beliefs, as well as me. I am always open to holding somethign by tradtition rather than by Scripture.
> 
> There is nothing wrong with quoting Spurgeon. Let me ask you brother, do you attend a church? Are you member there? Do they preach?
> 
> ...



I'm sorry if I seemed that way also.  I really didn't mean to.
Often, when people disagree on this subject, they actually agree.
And the disagreement doesn't change our fundamental ministry, to carry the Gospel of Christ forward to all who will believe.

I have to leave home right now.  Be gone all day.
And, NO, you bunch of atheist, I'm not shagging out.
I got to meet my wife for lunch.

God Bless.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

1. And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, 
3. And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 
5. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 
6. And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 
8. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. 
9. Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 
10. So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests .
11. And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 
12. And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
13. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 
*14. For many are called, but few are chosen.*


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## SBG (Mar 6, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> 1. And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
> 2. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
> 3. And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
> 4. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
> ...



This parable puts a bit of a damper on irresistible grace does it not?


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

SBG said:


> This parable puts a bit of a damper on irresistible grace does it not?



How so?


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 6, 2009)

SBG said:


> This parable puts a bit of a damper on irresistible grace does it not?


 

Could it possibly mean that "Many are called" means that not everyone will get the call?

From John Gill's Exposition:

for many be called[SIZE=+1]; externally, under the ministration of the Gospel, as the Jews in general were, by Christ and his apostles; but

few chosen[SIZE=+1]; in Christ from all eternity, both to grace and glory; and in consequence, and as an evidence of it, but few among the Jews; as also in the Gentile world, comparatively speaking: and even but a few of those that are outwardly called, are inwardly and effectually called by the powerful grace of God, out of darkness into marvellous light, into the grace and liberty of the Gospel, into communion with Christ, and to the obtaining his kingdom and glory, according to the eternal purpose of God. It is a saying of R. Simeon ben Jochai {d}[/SIZE][/SIZE]


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## SBG (Mar 6, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> How so?



And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.


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## phillipv (Mar 6, 2009)

ronnie t said:


> john 3: 16for god so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17for god sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18he that believeth on him is not condemned: But he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten son of god. 19and this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20for every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


 
amen!!!!!!!


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

SBG said:


> And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.



And...????

How does that "disprove" effectual calling? 

BTW; The thread is about election. lol


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 6, 2009)

I think the "called" used in Matthew is slightly different than the "called" used in Romans.  For instance, it's a different word in the original language (at least from the word in Romans 8:30).


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I think the "called" used in Matthew is slightly different than the "called" used in Romans.  For instance, it's a different word in the original language (at least from the word in Romans 8:30).



I am not sure I get the point your trying to make, could you explain? 

I will look up the greek in the meantime.


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> It is not a statement of God's selfish withholding of the opportunity for salvation to anyone.



What would be selfish about that?  Isn't the concept of grace that God provides something that someone doesn't deserve?  If all deserve a chance (meaning libertarian freedom to accept or reject Christ), then it seems as if grace isn't grace at all, but justice.


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 6, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> I am not sure I get the point your trying to make, could you explain?
> 
> I will look up the greek in the meantime.



I'm just saying that those who view the Scripture in Matthew as an obstacle to irresistable grace are reading their definition of "called" into the text where that may not be warranted.  

I doubt there is much to the differing words.  The term used in Matthew (many are called klaytos) is used in Romans 8:28, but in 8:30 it's kaleo.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

DBBB, my comments are in blue.




Double Barrel BB said:


> 1. And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
> 2. The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king(God) , which made a marriage for his son(Jesus Christ) ,
> 3. And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. (People of Israel, Jews)
> 4. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. (Again, people of Israel)
> ...



If God *decided* in the beginning who would and who would not be given access to the blood of Jesus, how do you know for sure that you are on the list?

Verse 14  God sent His apostles into all the world to carry the Gospel, many heard.  But few would accept Jesus Christ as Savior.  Those who accept Christ are the chosen, the elect.

This is what I believe and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> DBBB, my comments are in blue.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You should work out your salvation with trepidation. Paul said that. But you will know by your growth. People will know by your fruit.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> What would be selfish about that?  Isn't the concept of grace that God provides something that someone doesn't deserve?  If all deserve a chance (meaning libertarian freedom to accept or reject Christ), then it seems as if grace isn't grace at all, but justice.



Then bro Lightnin, how do you know you will be accepted by God?  What marks you as being different from those who will not be accepted?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> You should work out your salvation with trepidation. Paul said that. But you will know by your growth. People will know by your fruit.



Doesn't make biblical sense to me.

Why would Paul be so concerned that he might teach the gospel to others and yet fall short himself.  And because of that, he daily whipped his body(literally or figuratively) in order that he might win the race?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

Salvation is for those who believe.
And if they believe, God's grace will save them.


Romans 10

8But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 
9that *if* you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, *and* *believe* in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 
10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, *resulting* in salvation. 
11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 
12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord *is Lord of all*, abounding in riches for *all *who call on Him; 
13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 
14How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? 
15How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS!" 
16However, *they did not all heed *the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?" 
17So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Then bro Lightnin, how do you know you will be accepted by God?  What marks you as being different from those who will not be accepted?



I know the same way any other Christian knows.

Those who hold to predestination (by and large) do not believe that there are those who really desire genuine salvation, but are denied because they are not elect.

Augustine said it best: If you wake up in the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, you have no one to blame but yourself.  If you wake up in heaven, you have no one to thank but God.


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Salvation is for those who believe.
> And if they believe, God's grace will save them.
> 
> 
> ...



Salvation is for believers? Amen! 

Now you startin' to sound like a Calvinist. hahaha!


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## Dixie Dawg (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> This is what I believe and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.



What a great line!!! I may have to put this in my sig line as a quote from you, Ronnie


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## gtparts (Mar 6, 2009)

roothog, 

I believe if you received an invitation to the Tour de France, you'd show up with a tricycle.....and an air balloon for backup. Do you ever look at the subject matter being covered in a thread before you start typing?


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## ToLog (Mar 6, 2009)

gtparts said:


> roothog,
> 
> I believe if you received an invitation to the Tour de France, you'd show up with a tricycle.....and an air balloon for backup. Do you ever look at the subject matter being covered in a thread before you start typing?



well, since you asked, i'm willing to share that i don't ever leave home without a backup. (or two).

Now, in terms of logistics, we've got to start (or begin) talking about us Humans on the Earth.

this site is a free-site, as offered by the benefactors.

are you suggesting that i shouldn't post my perspectives here?  If so, fine. Just say the word.


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## pigpen1 (Mar 6, 2009)

roothog said:


> well, since you asked, i'm willing to share that i don't ever leave home without a backup. (or two).
> 
> Now, in terms of logistics, we've got to start (or begin) talking about us Humans on the Earth.
> 
> ...



 Are you a Tree Hugger???


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I know the same way any other Christian knows.
> 
> Those who hold to predestination (by and large) do not believe that there are those who really desire genuine salvation, but are denied because they are not elect.
> 
> Augustine said it best: If you wake up in the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth, you have no one to blame but yourself.  If you wake up in heaven, you have no one to thank but God.




I cannot tell you how much I agree with Augustine.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Salvation is for believers? Amen!
> 
> Now you startin' to sound like a Calvinist. hahaha!



Does this mean we agree?


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## pigpen1 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> .
> I got to meet my wife for lunch.



Ronnie, why didn't you make that second class citizen cook it for you???


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> What a great line!!! I may have to put this in my sig line as a quote from you, Ronnie




Hey Dixie,
Please feel free to use it.
There is a problem.  It's not actually true.
There was a time when I was always right but now I've figured out that I'm dumb as a weed.
I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
My elevator doesn't go to the top floor.

But it's nice to proclaim otherwise.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 6, 2009)

Election is devastating to those who rely and are counting on something they did to obtain salvation.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 6, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Ronnie, why didn't you make that second class citizen cook it for you???




She couldn't.
She went and got her a job.
At 58 years old she went and got her a job.

I made her cook when she got home.
"Not"


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## pigpen1 (Mar 6, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> She couldn't.
> She went and got her a job.
> At 58 years old she went and got her a job.
> 
> ...


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## ToLog (Mar 6, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Are you a Tree Hugger???




HEH, i ain't hugged  a tree in nearly forever.

when the Stihl saw starts cutting, and the tree starts screaming, my reponse is "stop the screaming, and we'll stop the cutting."

when the screaming stops, the cutting stops. 

Now, if the downed tree can be converted into expensive table tops,  or chairs, or other expensive woodworks for the  well-heeled, that's a good days' work, right? 

oh, is anyone engaged in re-planting the forests that are being cut down and converted into expensive furniture?

just askin...


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## pigpen1 (Mar 6, 2009)

roothog said:


> HEH, i ain't hugged  a tree in nearly forever.
> 
> when the Stihl saw starts cutting, and the tree starts screaming, my reponse is "stop the screaming, and we'll stop the cutting."
> 
> ...



 EARTH FIRST, we'll log the other planets latter...


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## fivesolas (Mar 6, 2009)

Dixie Dawg said:


> What a great line!!! I may have to put this in my sig line as a quote from you, Ronnie



Here's a new avatar for ya


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## gtparts (Mar 7, 2009)

roothog said:


> Now, in terms of logistics, we've got to start (or begin) talking about us Humans on the Earth.
> 
> this site is a free-site, as offered by the benefactors.
> 
> are you suggesting that i shouldn't post my perspectives here?  If so, fine. Just say the word.



I  will   simplify   it   for   you. 

A   great   portion   of   what   you   post   is   not   relevant   to   the   thread.



> "Now, in terms of logistics, we've got to start (or begin) talking about us Humans on the Earth."


 

Is   there   anything   in   this   sentence   that   has   anything   to   do   with   "election",   as   recorded   in   the   Bible?

Or    this?



> God, you people make me nearly sick.
> 
> let some follow the philosophy of Ronnie, the Leader.
> 
> ...



Someone starts a pick up soccer match and you show up with a pool cue and a shuttlecock......and expect to be accommodated. All I am saying is , if you want to play soccer, put the pool cue and shuttlecock down and get your mind into soccer mode.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> And...????
> 
> How does that "disprove" effectual calling?
> 
> BTW; The thread is about election. lol



 I know it is about election. I was just doing a bit of needling to my brother DB. 

I love CHS and have read many of his sermons, including the one you provided for the premise of this thread: I just think he happens to be wrong on a lot of his doctrines; election included.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> Election is devastating to those who rely and are counting on something they did to obtain salvation.



So true. It is a man centered view of the grace of God. Seriously what does this say about the Sovereignty of God if you have to chose him?


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> So true. It is a man centered view of the grace of God. Seriously what does this say about the Sovereignty of God if you have to chose him?



Did Adam not have the freedom to choose?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> So true. It is a man centered view of the grace of God. Seriously what does this say about the Sovereignty of God if you have to chose him?




What does it say about God if He has to make you chose Him??????


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> What does it say about God if He has to make you chose Him??????



He does not make you. You should know that by now. 

He will eventually turn you over to your sin. We can see that. He is not forcing you to do it. He has placed a call in his elect and they will hear his voice. And you will want to pursue Him.

SBG-

Genesis 3

 16 To the woman he said, 
       "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing; 
       with pain you will give birth to children. 
       Your desire will be for your husband, 
       and he will rule over you."

 17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' 
       "Cursed is the ground because of you; 
       through painful toil you will eat of it 
       all the days of your life.

 18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you, 
       and you will eat the plants of the field.

 19 By the sweat of your brow 
       you will eat your food 
       until you return to the ground, 
       since from it you were taken; 
       for dust you are 
       and to dust you will return."

He made a decision and all of us have to live with the consequences of the fall.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> He does not make you. You should know that by now.
> 
> He will eventually turn you over to your sin. We can see that. He is not forcing you to do it. He has placed a call in his elect and they will hear his voice. And you will want to pursue Him.
> 
> ...



My point Celt, is that God is sovereign, yet Adam deliberately disobeyed Him. Throughout the bible, God has given man the freedom to choose or reject Him.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

SBG said:


> My point Celt, is that God is sovereign, yet Adam deliberately disobeyed Him. Throughout the bible, God has given man the freedom to choose or reject Him.



Where is Adam now? Where is Abraham, Paul, Moses, or Noah?


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Where is Adam now? Where is Abraham, Paul, Moses, or Noah?



They all are in paradise. Where is Judas Iscariot?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

SBG said:


> They all are in paradise. Where is Judas Iscariot?



Irresistible Grace.

In he11. 

Remember the verses about even though you may cast out demons in my name I will say I know you not???


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## PsLLMartin (Mar 7, 2009)

I would like to recommend a series of sermons on the subject of "The Sovereignty of God in the Salvation of Men" which is found on the website www.GraceChurchAtlanta.org  Those willing to invest the time might discover a Biblical truth which will change their thinking and their life forever.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

PsLLMartin said:


> I would like to recommend a series of sermons on the subject of "The Sovereignty of God in the Salvation of Men" which is found on the website www.GraceChurchAtlanta.org  Those willing to invest the time might discover a Biblical truth which will change their thinking and their life forever.



Sure as long as you notice this on the opening page.

"While we recognize no authority other than the Word of God as contained in the Old and New Testament scriptures, our church embraces the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith as an excellent summary of "the things most surely believed among us".  Even though this confession of faith is not an infallible document, we find it to be very helpful in summarizing what the Word of God teaches.  Read it - Hear it"


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## PsLLMartin (Mar 7, 2009)

What is your point?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

PsLLMartin said:


> What is your point?



Nothing other than you and I have very different views on this subject. And that is important to point out. I didn't say you were wrong. I said it was important to know this.


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## PsLLMartin (Mar 7, 2009)

Point taken!  I once held a different view on this subject than I now have.  Being willing to admit that there is much about God that I may not understand or that I may misunderstand and being willing to listen to the views of others with an open Bible has led to more light on who God is and how He deals with His human creation.  The key is comparing what is presented to us with what God has revealed in His Word.  None of us should be so tied to our tradition {and all of us have a tradition} that the Word of God can not change our minds.  
     All that I am suggesting is that there is a clear & thorough presentation of the subject of "The Sovereignty of God in the Salvation of Men" {from the perspective of God being absolutely sovereign in all things .... including man's salvation} on the website www.GraceChurchAtlanta.org  This series of sermons is based upon what the Word of God teaches on that subject, NOT upon what is stated in the confession of faith we hold dear {not infallible but dear}.  Listening to this sermon series with an open Bible could be the means in the hands of God to shed greater light on this very important & life changing subject.
     Once God sheds the light of His Word on this subject the question which will be most puzzeling to the true child of God is "why do those who profess to know God have such a problem with God being God?"
     For any really interested in studying this subject, this sermon series will be helpful.  For those determined to hold to what they have always been taught and who are unwilling to explore the possibility that the Word of God teachings something different, for them no teaching which is contrary is acceptable.  Another helpful source is the book "Evangelism and the Sovereignty of God" by J. I. Packer and the book "The Sovereignty of God" by A. W. Pink
     My prayer is that God will open the minds of many of His people to the truth concerning who He is.  When & if it is His will to do that, He will recieve much more glory & praise & honor than He now receives.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

http://www.chalcedon.org/

This is full of good info as well and real close to you. Might want to compare the ideas presented. 

Glad we are on the same page. Wasn't being disrespectful.


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## PsLLMartin (Mar 7, 2009)

Did not take your comments as being disrespectful.  May our Lord bless you as you continue to serve Him.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

PsLLMartin said:


> Did not take your comments as being disrespectful.  May our Lord bless you as you continue to serve Him.



You too brother!!!


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## gemcgrew (Mar 7, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> What does it say about God if He has to make you chose Him??????



That He is Gracious.


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## Lowjack (Mar 7, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> Did He say that everyone would be given the chance? I guess we can go back to debate the whole does world realy mean world?
> 
> DB BB


Yes even those who had die during the flood Of Noah were saved and already in hades.

The descent of Christ into Hades is one of the most mysterious, enigmatic and inexplicable events in New Testament history. In today’s Christian world, this event is understood differently. Liberal Western theology rejects altogether any possibility for speaking of the descent of Christ into Hades literally, arguing that the scriptural texts on this theme should be understood metaphorically. The traditional Catholic doctrine insists that after His death on the cross Christ descended to hades only to deliver the Old Testament righteous from it. A similar understanding is quite widespread among Orthodox Christians.

On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hades as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited’[2]. However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hades, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous. The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of he.l.l and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons.


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## SBG (Mar 7, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Irresistible Grace.
> 
> In he11.
> 
> Remember the verses about even though you may cast out demons in my name I will say I know you not???



Yet Judas was chosen.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

SBG said:


> Yet Judas was chosen.



Did you read the other part of my quote???

And also we can add in Many are called yet few chosen.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 7, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> That He is Gracious.




Then why didn't God make Adam?
And why didn't God make Israel?  Israel was released from slavery in Egypt because they were God's chosen people.  They were promised a land of their very own.  Yet just about none of them actually received that promise.

God is not gracious to those who do not love Him.
God destroys those who do not love Him.

God grace is not quite what you make it to be.

The sacrificial blood of Jesus did not open the narrow gate.
Salvation belongs to ANY who come to Christ.
But they must come.
Those who come are the elect.
The elect is the church.


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## fivesolas (Mar 7, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Then why didn't God make Adam?
> And why didn't God make Israel?  Israel was released from slavery in Egypt because they were God's chosen people.  They were promised a land of their very own.  Yet just about none of them actually received that promise.
> 
> God is not gracious to those who do not love Him.
> ...



Ronnie,

If God is not gracious to those who do not love Him, how is it that we love Him because He first loved us?


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Ronnie,
> 
> If God is not gracious to those who do not love Him, how is it that we love Him because He first loved us?



He makes it rain on the just and unjust.

His Grace is poured out to all who seek him. But again Many are called few are chosen.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 7, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Ronnie,
> 
> If God is not gracious to those who do not love Him, how is it that we love Him because He first loved us?



I've got to be more careful with my comment!
You're right, it was God's grace that allowed the death of His Son to become the sacrifice for all the sins of the world.  There was nothing anyone could have done.   Only God's grace toward the undeserving could have made salvation possible.

That being said, that grace of God is not saving the unrepentant, unsaved person who was offered Christ but did not accept.

God's grace did not save Adam after he sinned.  God's wrath fell upon Adam.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 7, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> That being said, that grace of God is not saving the unrepentant, unsaved person who was offered Christ but did not accept.
> 
> God's grace did not save Adam after he sinned.  God's wrath fell upon Adam.



Unrepentant- Agree there. But Therefore limited atonement. Otherwise Christ died for those sins and he was rejected.

Explain a little more though please about Adam.


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## farmasis (Mar 8, 2009)

It's always the same old topics, over and over-- the same old verses from each side- over and over.

God CAN choose whom he wants. He has done that and we have recorded accounts of God choosing and not choosing people in the Bible.

That is not his plan of salvation that is expressed over and over in the new testament.

Israel was God's chosen people. They were the elect. Not all of Israel chose God. Most did not.

God chose to include the gentiles in his elect. Not all gentiles will choose God.

God plan of salvation is not to choose whom he will save. His plan is to offer salvation to the elect.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 8, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Then why didn't God make Adam?


He did


> And why didn't God make Israel?  Israel was released from slavery in Egypt because they were God's chosen people.  They were promised a land of their very own.  Yet just about none of them actually received that promise.


He did


> God is not gracious to those who do not love Him.


God is gracious to those who do not love Him. He is not gracious to those He does not love.


> God destroys those who do not love Him.


God destroys those He raised for destruction.


> God grace is not quite what you make it to be.


Here we agree. It is much more than I can articulate. Grace reigns!


> The sacrificial blood of Jesus did not open the narrow gate.


I think I know where you are going with this. You by your work open the gate?


> Salvation belongs to ANY who come to Christ.


And the any will.


> Those who come are the elect.
> The elect is the church.


Agreed


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## Ronnie T (Mar 8, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> Unrepentant- Agree there. But Therefore limited atonement. Otherwise Christ died for those sins and he was rejected.
> 
> Explain a little more though please about Adam.




As my 5 year old grandson says:  I just don't want to talk about it anymore.
I'm kinda getting tired.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> If God *decided* in the beginning who would and who would not be given access to the blood of Jesus, how do you know for sure that you are on the list?
> 
> Verse 14 God sent His apostles into all the world to carry the Gospel, many heard. But few would accept Jesus Christ as Savior. Those who accept Christ are the chosen, the elect.
> 
> This is what I believe and anyone who disagrees with me is wrong.


 
How do I know? Because I know my whole being was changed, and I fought it with everything I could, but there is no way my flesh could win... God made sure of that.

So you are saying you have Power over God's decision? Interesting... I thought God was ALL-POWERFUL...

Even though you call what I believe wrong... I still consider you a brother in christ... I just pray that your eyes are opened...

DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

gemcgrew said:


> election is devastating to those who rely and are counting on something they did to obtain salvation.


 

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

SBG said:


> I know it is about election. I was just doing a bit of needling to my brother DB.


 


DB BB


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> his plan is to offer salvation to the elect.


 


> if god would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect i would go around lifting shirts. But since he didn't i must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes i know he is one of the elect.
> - c.h. Spurgeon


 
db bb


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## farmasis (Mar 9, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> db bb


 

 if god would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect i would go around lifting shirts. But since he didn't i must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes i know he is one of the elect. 
- c.h. Spurgeon 

Not sure who Spurgeon think the elect is, but for me it is the ones that God has called and those that have accepted his calling. 

Calvinist think that if you are called you have no choice but to accept and that when you do accept you have always been destined to be in the elect.

I think (through my study of the Bible and listening to the Holy Spirit) somewhat slightly different-- when called you can accept or reject. You were already in the elect prior to accepting because God knew you would in his foreknowledege, but made no part of your own personal decision. He just knew it.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2009)

farmasis said:


> if god would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect i would go around lifting shirts. But since he didn't i must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes i know he is one of the elect.
> - c.h. Spurgeon
> 
> Not sure who Spurgeon think the elect is, but for me it is the ones that God has called and those that have accepted his calling.
> ...



I completely agree.  And the reason I agree?  
It's the way the apostles built up the early church in the book of their Acts.
God didn't add daily to the kingdom those who were pre-selected?  He was adding those who were being saved.
The apostles sought to teach anyone.  They were often distraught because they didn't have the way to teach some who needed to be taught.  
Paul pleaded with people to turn from their wicked way and accept Jesus Christ.  They weren't pre-selected, but they could be saved if they would believe.

The Elect are the Church.  God always planned that the church would come.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> if god would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect i would go around lifting shirts. But since he didn't i must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes i know he is one of the elect.
> - c.h. Spurgeon
> 
> Not sure who Spurgeon think the elect is, but for me it is the ones that God has called and those that have accepted his calling.
> ...



The interesting thing is that Calvinists don't get as mad about it as Arminians do. We just believe you are one of the elect if you are a Christian. However for some reason arminians hold fast to "choice" and feel deprived when it is taken from them.

God's sovereign will is inescapable.


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## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> The interesting thing is that Calvinists don't get as mad about it as Arminians do. We just believe you are one of the elect if you are a Christian. However for some reason arminians hold fast to "choice" and feel deprived when it is taken from them.
> 
> God's sovereign will is inescapable.


 
Can't speak for all, but I don't get mad. I have said before, I am sure that when my knowledge is perfected in that day there will be things that I thought I had totally correct and was dead wrong about. I am OK with that. 
People do get ruffled when phrases like "believing falsely", "believe in err", etc are thrown around.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 10, 2009)

There's nothing for me to be upset about.
I'm the one that's right!

Here's the thing that bothers me.
This "belief" falsely tells people that they must be a part of the elect in order to be justified by the blood of Jesus.
The book of Acts makes it clear that that is not the case.  The Epistles make it clear that those in the church are the chosen, elect.
God's grace is for everyone who will give their lives to Him.


Please tell me, which denominations is it that have this belief??

End of discussion for me.


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## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

celticfisherman said:


> The interesting thing is that Calvinists don't get as mad about it as Arminians do. We just believe you are one of the elect if you are a Christian. However for some reason arminians hold fast to "choice" and feel deprived when it is taken from them.
> 
> God's sovereign will is inescapable.



How about those of us that are neither?


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## Israel (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> How about those of us that are neither?



Thank you brother.
There's something that bristles in the spirit when a label is hauled out for definition of what is eternal and free. 
A man is free to wear any label he wants...just don't try to hang one on Jesus or his disciples.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> if god would have painted a yellow stripe on the backs of the elect i would go around lifting shirts. But since he didn't i must preach `whosoever will' and when `whosoever' believes i know he is one of the elect.
> - c.h. Spurgeon
> 
> Not sure who Spurgeon think the elect is, but for me it is the ones that God has called and those that have accepted his calling.
> ...


 

How can a Totally Deprave individual do anything that is against his nature?

DB BB


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## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> How can a Totally Deprave individual do anything that is against his nature?
> 
> DB BB


 
Not sure, but an individual PRONE to depravity who is touched by the Holy Spirit and has his heart convicted and softened to the truth can CHOOSE to accept or reject that truth.

God's plan of salvation (as I understand it) is not an all or nothing job by one entity on either side. It is a covenant that is entered into by two parties. Of course God can set someone apart (and has as demonstrated in scripture) without human influence, but for His plan of salvation for most of mankind, he desires us to choose him.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Not sure, but an individual PRONE to depravity who is touched by the Holy Spirit and has his heart convicted and softened to the truth can CHOOSE to accept or reject that truth.


 
So what happens if someone "rejects" it... do they loose that touch that the Holy Spirit gave them? Can they even remember it? Or is it taken away without any knowledge of ever having it?



farmasis said:


> God's plan of salvation (as I understand it) is not an all or nothing job by one entity on either side. It is a covenant that is entered into by two parties. Of course God can set someone apart (and has as demonstrated in scripture) without human influence, but for His plan of salvation for most of mankind, he desires us to choose him.


 
So you are saying that God chooses some and some choose God?

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

Hebrews 2:3: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.” 

Who are the "we" referred to in this passage?


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## fivesolas (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> Hebrews 2:3: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.”
> 
> Who are the "we" referred to in this passage?



from what I understand, Hebrews was written primarily to Jews. So, my thought is he is speaking of Jews.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> Hebrews 2:3: “How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him.”
> 
> Who are the "we" referred to in this passage?


 
The Saved.




From John Gill's Exposition:


Ver. 3. How shall we escape,.... The righteous judgment of God, and eternal punishment:

if we neglect so great salvation? as the Gospel is, which is called salvation; in opposition to the law, which is the ministration of condemnation; and because it is a declaration of salvation by Christ; and is the means of bringing it near, and of the application of it in conversion, and so is the power of God unto it: and it is a "great" salvation; the Gospel which reveals it is great, for the author of it is Christ; it has been confirmed by miracles, and attended with great success; and has in it great things, great mysteries, and exceeding great and precious promises: and the salvation which it declares is great; it is the produce of great wisdom; it is wrought by a great person, by a Saviour, and a great one, and who is the great God, and our Saviour; it has been procured at great charge and expense, even at the expense of the blood and life of the Son of God; and has been obtained through great difficulties; and is the salvation of the soul, the more noble part of man; and it is a complete and everlasting one: to "neglect" this, is to be careless of it; to condemn it, and to despise the ministers of it; and to make anything else but Christ the way of salvation: and the danger such are in is very great; it is not possible that they should escape divine vengeance, since their sin is so great, and attended with such aggravating circumstances; for it is a contempt of the grace and wisdom of God in providing such a Saviour, and a trampling under foot the Son of God, and a counting his blood as a common thing; and besides, there is no more sacrifice for sin, they can have nothing to atone for it; and that God, whom they offend hereby, is both omniscient and omnipotent, and there will be no escaping out of his hands: to which must be added, that this Gospel of salvation is that

which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord; by the Lord Jesus Christ himself; the Gospel was preached by him, and he was extraordinarily qualified for it; and he spake it as never man did: it was preached by John indeed, and by all the prophets before him, and to the Israelites in the wilderness, and to Abraham before them, and even to Adam in Eden's garden, which was the first time it was spoken; but then it was spoken to him by the Lord; by the Word of the Lord, the essential Word, the Son of God, as the ancient Chaldee paraphrases, which express the sense of the old Jewish church, show {c}: besides, it began most fully and clearly to be preached by him in the days of his flesh, so as it never was preached before, nor since; grace and truth, the doctrines of grace and truth came by him, in all their fulness and glory: and

was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; the Gospel is in itself firm and stable; nor did the words of Christ need any confirmation, who is truth itself, the "Amen", and faithful witness; but in condescension to human weakness, and by reason that Christ, as man, was not everywhere, and that by the mouth of more witnesses it should be established, he sent forth his apostles to preach it; who heard it from him, and they published it to the Jews first, as these were to whom the apostle writes, and then to the Gentiles. And though the apostle had it first by revelation from Christ himself, *Ga 1:11* it was confirmed to him by Ananias.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> from what I understand, Hebrews was written primarily to Jews. So, my thought is he is speaking of Jews.


 

I have heard that too.

DB BB


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## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> The Saved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would such an admonition be necessary to one that cannot resist grace and will persevere, or one that has no possibility of such a great salvation?


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> Why would such an admonition be necessary to one that cannot resist grace and will persevere, or one that has no possibility of such a great salvation?



Perhaps the admonition is the means by which the end of perseverance is attained.


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## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Perhaps the admonition is the means by which the end of perseverance is attained.



Is that to imply that works are required to maintain salvation?


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> Is that to imply that works are required to maintain salvation?



No...I understand that can seem confusing.  But, just as the evangelists work doesn't impart salvation, it is the means by which God (who does impart salvation) chooses to impart salvation.


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## vanguard1 (Mar 10, 2009)

hey ronnie t  you got it right brother,God is open to ALL.and he is just, not a mad man picking and choseing who lives or dies,


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

vanguard1 said:


> hey ronnie t you got it right brother,God is open to ALL.and he is just, not a mad man picking and choseing who lives or dies,


 
mad man...  

I have heard it all now...


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## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> No...I understand that can seem confusing.  But, just as the evangelists work doesn't impart salvation, it is the means by which God (who does impart salvation) chooses to impart salvation.



No offense intended Johnny, but that doesn't answer the question of why an admonition would be necessary in the first place. Why would someone that is part of the elect be warned of neglecting such great salvation? If grace is irresistible, and salvation is secure, then there would be no need for this admonition.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> No offense intended Johnny, but that doesn't answer the question of why an admonition would be necessary in the first place. Why would someone that is part of the elect be warned of neglecting such great salvation? If grace is irresistible, and salvation is secure, then there would be no need for this admonition.


 

probably because we should always be learning how to become more Christ-like and not become stagnent, or content with our knowledge of our Salvation...

DB BB


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> No offense intended Johnny, but that doesn't answer the question of why an admonition would be necessary in the first place. Why would someone that is part of the elect be warned of neglecting such great salvation? If grace is irresistible, and salvation is secure, then there would be no need for this admonition.



None taken, but couldn't you draw that out to the entirety of Scripture?  If you think you can, I believe I've got an answer for you.  If you don't believe you can, I'd like to know why this text in particular would be any different than any of the other admonitions of Scripture.


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## fivesolas (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> No offense intended Johnny, but that doesn't answer the question of why an admonition would be necessary in the first place. Why would someone that is part of the elect be warned of neglecting such great salvation? If grace is irresistible, and salvation is secure, then there would be no need for this admonition.



The elect of God, true believers, true Christians, real disciples, persevere to the end.


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## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> The elect of God, true believers, true Christians, real disciples, persevere to the end.



That is abundantly true. However, we persevere entirely because of the watch-care of God. We can do nothing in and of ourselves that will have any bearing on our perseverance after salvation. 

If election were true as some of the brethern believe, the elect would have no power to neglect such great salvation and the non-elect would have no power to believe. The doctrine of particular redemption renders this passage of scripture as non-sensical.


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## fivesolas (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> That is abundantly true. However, we persevere entirely because of the watch-care of God. We can do nothing in and of ourselves that will have any bearing on our perseverance after salvation.
> 
> If election were true as some of the brethern believe, the elect would have no power to neglect such great salvation and the non-elect would have no power to believe. The doctrine of particular redemption renders this passage of scripture as non-sensical.



All I can say SBG, is somehow your understanding of the historical view of election is not the same as mine. I have never drawn the conclusion that the Sovereignty of God over the salvation of souls negates their responsibility. Nor has any classic calvinist taught such things. Certainly hyper-calvinism teaches this, but not historical calvinism. 

Neither the elect nor the non-elect have any power in themselves to turn from their sin and believe. It takes an act of God to do such a thing, even in those whom God fore-loved (knew). 

Perhaps your confusion is resolved in the fact that none of God's elect can or will be finally lost.


----------



## SBG (Mar 10, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> All I can say SBG, is somehow your understanding of the historical view of election is not the same as mine. I have never drawn the conclusion that the Sovereignty of God over the salvation of souls negates their responsibility. Nor has any classic calvinist taught such things. Certainly hyper-calvinism teaches this, but not historical calvinism.
> 
> Neither the elect nor the non-elect have any power in themselves to turn from their sin and believe. It takes an act of God to do such a thing, even in those whom God fore-loved (knew).
> 
> Perhaps your confusion is resolved in the fact that none of God's elect can or will be finally lost.



Through my admitted ignorance I may have lumped you together in a catch-all group- if this is indeed the case, please accept my apology. 

My understanding of the doctrine is that God predestined some to salvation and others to ****ation. Those that are predestined to salvation cannot resist grace, and those that God chose for ****ation, are not able seek Him and therefore will not be called by God.


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## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

Double Barrel BB said:


> So what happens if someone "rejects" it... do they loose that touch that the Holy Spirit gave them? Can they even remember it? Or is it taken away without any knowledge of ever having it?


 
Yes. That is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, the only sin not forgivable. Will the Holy Spirit call you again? Possibly. But eventually, your heart will harden from your rejection.





> So you are saying that God chooses some and some choose God?
> 
> DB BB


 
God's plan of salvation is for us to enter into a covenant with him freely by believing, trusting and having faith in him. 

Now, that being said God has, in the past, as recorded in the Bible set some apart for purposes that they had no control over, i.e. Jacob and has decided to not call some , i.e. Esau. God did this because His plan called for those people to be the fathers of Israel and Palastine. They didn't have a choice. Was that fair? Of course, God is supreme and Paul explained that in Romans 9.

When God's agenda and our will cross, God's agenda will happen. Just like when Jonah decided to not do what God desired, God made provision to get him where he wanted him.

Those are exceptions, not the rule.


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## farmasis (Mar 10, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Nor has any classic calvinist taught such things. Certainly hyper-calvinism teaches this, but not historical calvinism.


 
I never understood the difference. What is termed hyper-calvinism is the application of Calvin's principles on a global scale. I don't see how one can seperate them.


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## fivesolas (Mar 10, 2009)

SBG said:


> Through my admitted ignorance I may have lumped you together in a catch-all group- if this is indeed the case, please accept my apology.
> 
> My understanding of the doctrine is that God predestined some to salvation and others to ****ation. Those that are predestined to salvation cannot resist grace, and those that God chose for ****ation, are not able seek Him and therefore will not be called by God.



Edited in: farm, I think this answers your question too...

No need to apologize brother. Most often those who are called Calvinists have some statement of faith/creed that is rather old. So it can be taken to be "historical" calvinism. 

Mine, for example, is from the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith. And here is its statement on this subject of election/reprobation. Is this your understanding of what folks like me believe? 



> Chapter 3: Of God's Decree
> 1._____ God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein; nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established; in which appears his wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in accomplishing his decree.
> ( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
> 
> ...


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 10, 2009)

Double predestination (some to salvation and some to ****ation) is not a universally held view by Calvinist.  I can't speak for my Presbyterian brothers (RC Sproul has an interesting article on it), but most of the Baptist who identify themselves as Calvinists or reformed do not  hold to double predestination.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 10, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> from what I understand, Hebrews was written primarily to Jews. So, my thought is he is speaking of Jews.



Mostly Jews who've accepted Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 10, 2009)

I just looked back over the last 30 entries for this thread and it amazes me how complicated we've made the Gospel of Jesus seem.
Jesus died on the cross so that ALL might be able to rid themselves of the burden of sins.  Those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will be saved.  That's all there is to it.  Why do we have to discuss all these other things just because some folks thought it was important a century or more ago?
It is God's desire to save everyone.  He is being very patient so as everyone might have that opportunity.
Believe what ever else we like.  But please don't pollute the minds of the unsaved by insinuating that they might not be one of the chosen ones.  Let God deal with those things.  The stronger our convictions become on some of these things, the stupider we look.

Go into all the world, all the world, and preach the Gospel.  Those, those who believe and are baptized will be saved.
Anyone, whoever they may be.


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## johnnylightnin (Mar 10, 2009)

It's a worthy discussion because it's clearly in the text.  Whether you believe God predestined according to his good pleasure or according to his exhaustive foreknowledge, predestination is a scriptural fact.  As such, it's a worthy discussion.  I can promise you that no one who truly desires a personal relationship with Christ will decide not to have one because of a discussion here.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 10, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> It's a worthy discussion because it's clearly in the text.  Whether you believe God predestined according to his good pleasure or according to his exhaustive foreknowledge, predestination is a scriptural fact.  As such, it's a worthy discussion.  I can promise you that no one who truly desires a personal relationship with Christ will decide not to have one because of a discussion here.



Well there ya go.


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## Double Barrel BB (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> It is God's desire to save everyone. He is being very patient so as everyone might have that opportunity.


 
So is there going to be a time where no one is able to have children?

Or is there going to be a time when the Age of Accountability hits every child at one time?

I mean you say all will have a opportunity... So this would have to happen or else the rapture will never occur...

DB BB


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## fivesolas (Mar 11, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I just looked back over the last 30 entries for this thread and it amazes me how complicated we've made the Gospel of Jesus seem.
> Jesus died on the cross so that ALL might be able to rid themselves of the burden of sins.  Those who accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior will be saved.  That's all there is to it.  Why do we have to discuss all these other things just because some folks thought it was important a century or more ago?
> It is God's desire to save everyone.  He is being very patient so as everyone might have that opportunity.
> Believe what ever else we like.  But please don't pollute the minds of the unsaved by insinuating that they might not be one of the chosen ones.  Let God deal with those things.  The stronger our convictions become on some of these things, the stupider we look.
> ...



Actually, if you look at the Scripture, and follow its identification of who the Apostle is talking about, you will see that it is teaching that the longsuffering of God is salvation for all His elect.


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Actually, if you look at the Scripture, and follow its identification of who the Apostle is talking about, you will see that it is teaching that the longsuffering of God is salvation for all His elect.


 
Yes, for his CONDITIONALLY elect. It would make no sense to be longsuffering for unconditionally elected individuals.


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## fivesolas (Mar 11, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Yes, for his CONDITIONALLY elect. It would make no sense to be longsuffering for unconditionally elected individuals.



Where does the Scripture teach conditional election? 

Rather, what does the Scripture say as to why God chose some?


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## Lowjack (Mar 11, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> from what I understand, Hebrews was written primarily to Jews. So, my thought is he is speaking of Jews.



Although it might have being written to Jews, I don't believe it was a Jew who wrote it, there are too many mistakes concerning the sacrificial Laws to be written by Paul or any of the apostles.
First mistake is Christ dying according to the Law.
That Christ priesthood is according to Melchizedek's order 
Etc.


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## fivesolas (Mar 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Although it might have being written to Jews, I don't believe it was a Jew who wrote it, there are too many mistakes concerning the sacrificial Laws to be written by Paul or any of the apostles.
> First mistake is Christ dying according to the Law.
> That Christ priesthood is according to Melchizedek's order
> Etc.



And you deny the canon of Scripture. First the denial of the Trinity. What else do you deny?


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## farmasis (Mar 11, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> Where does the Scripture teach conditional election?
> 
> Rather, what does the Scripture say as to why God chose some?


 
In all the scriptures that I posted saying to choose him. Where does it teach unconditional? Why does scripture say God desires ALL to come to repentence and seek him?


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## Lowjack (Mar 11, 2009)

fivesolas said:


> And you deny the canon of Scripture. First the denial of the Trinity. What else do you deny?


Where does the canon fit in here.
Besides who put the Canon together ?, same guys that Killed 200 thousand Jews in Spain, same guys that went to Jerusalem under a christian Flag and killed 100 thousand Jews plus Arabs.
Is that who you are talking about ?
Can you prove who wrote Hebrews ? and knows little about Sacrifices ? weird ain't it.


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## Lowjack (Mar 11, 2009)

By the way I don't see your Biblical prove of a trinity ,I'm still waving through your insults to find a biblical answer.
Calling someone a heretic and not proving it, is a sin.


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## earl (Mar 11, 2009)

[Although it might have being written to Jews, I don't believe it was a Jew who wrote it, there are too many mistakes concerning the sacrificial Laws to be written by Paul or any of the apostles.]
[Calling someone a heretic and not proving it, is a sin.]
Are you guys just saying this stuff to bait me ?


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## fivesolas (Mar 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> By the way I don't see your Biblical prove of a trinity ,I'm still waving through your insults to find a biblical answer.
> Calling someone a heretic and not proving it, is a sin.



I am not going to argue with you. It's that simple.


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## celticfisherman (Mar 11, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> By the way I don't see your Biblical prove of a trinity ,I'm still waving through your insults to find a biblical answer.
> Calling someone a heretic and not proving it, is a sin.



Well let's start with 

Genesis 1 

26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, * and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

 27 So God created man in his own image, 
       in the image of God he created him; 
       male and female he created them.


Matthew 3
The Baptism of Jesus

 13Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
 15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.

 16As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased."

John 1
The Word Became Flesh

 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
 3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

Luke 24

 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Acts 2

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

 1When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. 4All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues[a] as the Spirit enabled them.


Pretty much a clear doctrine. God speaks of making man in "Our" image. The Word was with God. The Word is embodied in Christ. Christ sends the Holy Spirit.

They all have specific relations to our salvation.*


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