# Jews Sacricfice Passover Lamb, by old Temple



## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2013)

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166483


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## gordon 2 (Mar 23, 2013)

Very sad, very sad.  God remains for them a tree that does not speak. If only they knew of 2 Samual 7 and  then  onto the Lord with faith. Why aren't you on their case brother Lowjack.... Haiti is a more pressing mission  and more difficult for you and those who worship with you..?


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## gemcgrew (Mar 23, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Very sad, very sad.  God remains for them a tree that does not speak. If only they knew of 2 Samual 7 and  then  onto the Lord with faith. Why aren't you on their case brother Lowjack.... Haiti is a more pressing mission  and more difficult for you and those who worship with you..?



I started to reply with "very sad" as well but didn't. I was just glad to see that it is permitted to create new forum threads... on the Sabbath.


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2013)

This is all Prophecy in the making , and during the Millenial Reign sacrifices will be established again , even with Yeshua sitting on the throne, so rejoice , this only means he is at the door.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 23, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> This is all Prophecy in the making , and during the Millenial Reign sacrifices will be established again , even with Yeshua sitting on the throne, so rejoice , this only means he is at the door.


Why? We have a continual burnt offering with Christ. Why the need to shed blood? Is the blood of Christ not sufficient?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 23, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> This is all man madeProphecy in the making , and during the Millenial Reign sacrifices will be established again , even with Yeshua sitting on the throne, so rejoice , this only means he is at the door.



Fixed.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2013)

I thought the reconstruction of the Temple was a Biblical prophesy. If so why be sadden by it?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 24, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Why? We have a continual burnt offering with Christ. Why the need to shed blood? Is the blood of Christ not sufficient?



Agreed. Maybe it depends on if you believe Christ is the lamb of God, sacrificed for atonement once and for all.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 24, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought the reconstruction of the Temple was a Biblical prophesy. If so why be sadden by it?


Because the tabernacle and sacrifice is but a blueprint or picture of the true Tabernacle and true Sacrifice which is Christ.

"For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."(Hebrews 10:4)

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."(Hebrews 10:12-14)


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Because the tabernacle and sacrifice is but a blueprint or picture of the true Tabernacle and true Sacrifice which is Christ.
> 
> "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."(Hebrews 10:4)
> 
> "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."(Hebrews 10:12-14)



So it's the animal sacrifices that is wrong, ok, understood. What about the physical reconstruction of the Temple, that's not going to happen either?


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## Lowjack (Mar 24, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Fixed.



You blaspheme the word of God.
Animal sacrifice will resume after the rapture when Daniel’s 70th week begins.  We know this because the Abomination of Desolation will cause them to stop  in the middle of the week (Daniel 9:27).  Then when the Millennium begins they’ll be resumed again and will continue through out the 1000 years (Ezekiel 45:13-17, Ezekiel 46:13-15).  Even after Israel receives the New Covenant these sacrifices will continue year after year.  .


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## Lowjack (Mar 24, 2013)

Find me some evidence that Yeshua's sacrifice is based on Torah sacrifice ??
Let me give you a quick methodology to what the sacrice was and how it was carried out.
A perfect lamb was chosen one that wasn't blemish in anyway,Then the throat was slit and the blood collected in a container , the blood was sperinkled over the fire , the animal was skinned and the hair and fat was burned separatley , then the animal was cut in pieces and the meat burnt but still usuable for eating , Did Jesus died according to these instructions ?


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## panfried0419 (Mar 24, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Find me some evidence that Yeshua's sacrifice is based on Torah sacrifice ??
> Let me give you a quick methodology to what the sacrice was and how it was carried out.
> A perfect lamb was chosen one that wasn't blemish in anyway,Then the throat was slit and the blood collected in a container , the blood was sperinkled over the fire , the animal was skinned and the hair and fat was burned separatley , then the animal was cut in pieces and the meat burnt but still usuable for eating , Did Jesus died according to these instructions ?



Jesus died on the cross who was a sinless man without blemishes, he was captured, his clothes torn off and thrown away, on a cross scorching in the sun, stabbed in the side with a spear, whose blood poured out on the scorched arid earth for our sins. And we consume the wine or grape juice at communion as if it were his blood. I'd say that our Savior died according to those instructions.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Find me some evidence that Yeshua's sacrifice is based on Torah sacrifice ??
> Let me give you a quick methodology to what the sacrice was and how it was carried out.
> A perfect lamb was chosen one that wasn't blemish in anyway,Then the throat was slit and the blood collected in a container , the blood was sperinkled over the fire , the animal was skinned and the hair and fat was burned separatley , then the animal was cut in pieces and the meat burnt but still usuable for eating , Did Jesus died according to these instructions ?



I have never personally looked into it that much in that respect. I do see some differences between Old Testament sacrifices and Jesus' death. Animal sacrifices never took away sins. Animal Sacrifices had to be performed over & over. 
But weren't the animal sacrifices examples of Jesus coming and his sacrifice? If not why did we quit making animal sacrifices after Jesus came?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 24, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Jesus died on the cross who was a sinless man without blemishes, he was captured, his clothes torn off and thrown away, on a cross scorching in the sun, stabbed in the side with a spear, whose blood poured out on the scorched arid earth for our sins. And we consume the wine or grape juice at communion as if it were his blood. I'd say that our Savior died according to those instructions.



That pretty much covers all things.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 24, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> You blaspheme the word of God.
> Animal sacrifice will resume after the rapture when Daniel’s 70th week begins.  We know this because the Abomination of Desolation will cause them to stop  in the middle of the week (Daniel 9:27).  Then when the Millennium begins they’ll be resumed again and will continue through out the 1000 years (Ezekiel 45:13-17, Ezekiel 46:13-15).  Even after Israel receives the New Covenant these sacrifices will continue year after year.  .



Daniels 70 weeks have come and gone..there is no literal 1000 year reign.Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lords!


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## barryl (Mar 24, 2013)

A very timely sermon was preached this mornin' in church. Hebrews Ch. 9 KJV AV Verse 12 in particular, Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in "once" into the holy place, having obtained "eternal redemption" for us. {Quotations mine}


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## Ronnie T (Mar 24, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166483



What is it that this animal sacrifice accomplishes today?
What does the sprinkling of that animal blood do for a person who lives today?
.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 24, 2013)

Wanta rough house with scripture: This is my left, right and uppercut. 1000 yrs is poetry to poets and a lug nut to mechanics.

This is all I need... what it says,  the rest on 1000 yrs and a return to animal sacrefice to me is a funny. My faith practically all in this...as to the end and times: Paul is my Doctor, have at your achemists.


1 Corinthians 15:24-28

King James Version (KJV)


24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

-------------------

So there, the end time is far off, not near. I'm off with my shovel and bucket never to revisit this sandbox again. I like God's inspired poetry--there will never be an end to it. 1000yrs will come and go...but His word....hum...!


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't care one way or the other. What's a thousand years compared to eternity? If Jesus wants to take 1,000 years to tie up loose ends I could care less.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 25, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> So there, the end time is far off, not near. I'm off with my shovel and bucket never to revisit this sandbox again. I like God's inspired poetry--there will never be an end to it. 1000yrs will come and go...but His word....hum...!



I wish you would bring your shovel and bucket back into this sandbox.I think I understand your statement but am not clear.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I wish you would bring your shovel and bucket back into this sandbox.I think I understand your statement but am not clear.



What is not clear... that the end is far off? instead of the bromide it is near? Or something else...? Note that when it comes to scripture I am in poverty. I can't play a lifetime in Revelations...

For example Tituls2 ;14... He sacrificed himself for us in order to set us free from all wikedness and to purify a people so that it could be his very own and would have no ambition except to do good.

Now I don't care what constructs man makes of geneologies as Paul says in Titus. Revelations for some reason is a test that drives many astray. It tests faith, in that men not taking up their own hearts in grace, see to abide on every word of God and strip the life blood of Jesus from their lives.

They trust in God to walk for them and command Him to do, to intervene. But God commanded through grace that we should walk and walk to good works and goodness...not to earn anything but to praticipate and  to lively create to the goal of "all is in all."

From Psalms, Samual, and the prophets the faithful are pointed to a hope in a King and a Kingdom that will trample down all the adversaries of God down. That glorious time is the life we are made to live (NOW) in Christ. Christ glorified is the Kingdom we live in... It is Jesus in our hearts!... and we do good works to trample down adversaries... OH! But not by the weapons of our adversaries... We fight with love and we live as per the design of God.

So... Did Moses sit with scripture and hoped for the day the Hebrews would get to their promised land? No, he did not! Did Jesus sit with his mother and his mother's friends and wait till God intervened mysteriously to provide you and me a saviour? No He did not! Did Paul, a lawyer, a greek, a jew, a roman... and him saved! did he sit on his hands or visit the fires of snakes? Now with what did these fight their adverseries...? With governments?

How many times must we crucify our Lord? Or exchange him back to lambs? No times! No exchanges. It is done! And that work has born now--this time. We have no need of 1000 yrs, of other kingdoms, other sacrafices...

We are to have no ambition except to do good ( titus) and in so doing... we are to the will of God. Now and then, and tommorow when He inspired all holy men and women... we are to His Kingdom through Jesus'  salvation work-- and in kind this is our ministry--our life...NOW!.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So it's the animal sacrifices that is wrong, ok, understood. What about the physical reconstruction of the Temple, that's not going to happen either?


"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)


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## hobbs27 (Mar 25, 2013)

Gordon, thankyou.I agree with all you said, but Im not clear why you are so certain the end is far off, or to you, what is the end? could it go on forever?
 I have never cared for those shouting the end is near, my grandmother even mocked those preachers as she laid dying.Men use it too often as a scare tactic, when I was young I was so scared to read in Revelations because what had been taught to me, it was not until later in life I realized the love that is in it, and the meaning of the unveiling of Jesus Christ.
It is refreshing to hear another brother that recognizes the Kingdom and the King for what it is. Thanks again.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 25, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (1 Corinthians 3:16)



I agree but we still have physical temples. I would like to see some verses that say Jesus is the third temple or verses that say the physical temple will be rebuilt.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree but we still have physical temples. I would like to see some verses that say Jesus is the third temple or verses that say the physical temple will be rebuilt.


And physical temples, built by man, are of no value to me.

"And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people."(2 Corinthians 6:16)


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> That pretty much covers all things.



No it doesn't , because Jesus did not die according to the Torah Sacrifice prescribed to Aaron through Moses.
His Sacrifice was according to the Order of Melchizedek Yeshalime Malek , Which is the heavenly order ;Let's take a look at Ps 110:1-7 first which states…The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool." The LORD shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion. Rule in the midst of Your enemies! Your people shall be volunteers in the day of Your power; in the beauties of holiness, from the womb of the morning, you have the dew of Your youth. The LORD has sworn and will not relent, "You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." The Lord is at Your right hand; he shall execute kings in the day of His wrath. He shall judge among the nations, he shall fill the places with dead bodies, he shall execute the heads of many countries. He shall drink of the brook by the wayside; therefore He shall lift up the head."

Now let's notice that in Hebrews 1:13 it also states…"But to which of the angels has He ever said: "Sit at My right hand, till I make Your enemies Your footstool"? Now this is a quote from Ps 110 which we read above
enly order.

 Jesus as High Priest according to the Order of Melchizedek 
    4.1. Hebrews 5:1-10 
        4.1.1. Hebrews 5:1-4 
        4.1.2. Hebrews 5:5-6
        4.1.3. Hebrews 5:7-10 
    4.2. Hebrews 7:11-19 
If you are choking on this stake drink some water LOL


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## gemcgrew (Mar 25, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> If you are choking on this stake drink some water LOL


Would you have us to drink water from your broken cistern or from the well of living water which is Christ?


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## Ronnie T (Mar 25, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/166483





Ronnie T said:


> What is it that this animal sacrifice accomplishes today?
> What does the sprinkling of that animal blood do for a person who lives today?
> .



Very interested in the answer.
.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree but we still have physical temples. I would like to see some verses that say Jesus is the third temple or verses that say the physical temple will be rebuilt.



I could only find three vague New Testament verses about a third temple being rebuilt:

Jesus spoke of the Third Temple building in Jerusalem when discussing with his disciples the chain of events that would bring the close of the present age and his return. He spoke of an event yet future predicted by Daniel the prophet when the temple in Jerusalem would suffer ultimate defilement by a false Messiah who claimed to be God:

"So when you see the desolating sacrilege spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; let him who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house; and let him who is in the field not turn back to take his mantle. And alas for those who are with child and for those who give suck in those days! Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be." (Matthew 24:15-21)

Since only a properly consecrated temple can be defiled, this passage implies a functioning, dedicated Third Temple and priesthood in existence in the end time at the time Jesus said he would return.

The apostle Paul, writing a few years later, describes this same event:

"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God," (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4).

The coming false Jewish messiah, resembling his predecessor Antiochus Epiphanes (~175 BC), is the "worthless shepherd" spoken of by the prophet Zechariah - and the man Jesus spoke of when he said to the Jews, "I have come in my Father's name and you would not receive me. Another will come in his own name, him you will receive." (John 5:43) (See also Daniel 9:27, Revelation 13:18)

Finally, the existence of the Third Temple in Jerusalem at the close of the age is confirmed by the aged apostle John when he recorded the Book of the Revelation:

"Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told 'Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months."' (Revelation 11:1-2)

http://www.templemount.org/TM34.html


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## hobbs27 (Mar 25, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> No it doesn't , because Jesus did not die according to the Torah Sacrifice prescribed to Aaron through Moses.
> His Sacrifice was according to the Order of Melchizedek Yeshalime Malek , Which is the heavenly order



No doubt Melchizedek was the highest priest even a greater man than Abram in Gods eyes, but are you proclaiming him an angel?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 25, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I could only find three vague New Testament verses about a third temple being rebuilt:
> 
> Jesus spoke of the Third Temple building in Jerusalem when discussing with his disciples the chain of events that would bring the close of the present age and his return. He spoke of an event yet future predicted by Daniel the prophet when the temple in Jerusalem would suffer ultimate defilement by a false Messiah who claimed to be God:
> 
> ...



Art...verse 34 of Matthew 24 kills all attempts of these people to hide the fact that Jesus was speaking to his disciples(v.4) about what they would see...not in a third temple but the temple that was existing then, the second temple as we all know was destroyed in the time of that generation.  Read the whole chapter in context as to who Jesus is speaking.It is the greatest prophetic chapter in the bible concerning the arrival of the new kingdom and the destruction of the old.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> No doubt Melchizedek was the highest priest even a greater man than Abram in Gods eyes, but are you proclaiming him an angel?



Malak= Angel
Malek= King , he was King of salem, not angel of Salem.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2013)

The Third Temple will exist during the Great Tribulation. Daniel refers to this temple when he says that "the prince who is to come" (the Antichrist) will enter it and stop the sacrifices in the middle of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). The Apostle Paul mentions it when he declares that the "man of lawlessness" will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The Third Temple is also mentioned in the book of Revelation when John is told to measure it — a symbolic way of telling him to assess its spiritual condition (Revelation 11:1-2).

This raises the question as to precisely when the temple will be rebuilt. The Bible does not reveal the answer to this question. All it says for certain is that the temple will be in existence when the Antichrist reveals himself (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and that will be in the middle of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). Since this will be only three and a half years into the Tribulation, many have concluded that the temple will likely be rebuilt before the Tribulation begins, because how could such a magnificent building be constructed in such a short period of time?

But this conclusion overlooks the fact that the temple can be literally resurrected overnight! That's because the Jews plan to erect a tent temple like the Tabernacle of Moses, and they are ready to do so at any moment. Everything has been prepared. Once this temporary temple is put up, they will resume the sacrifices and then start building a more permanent structure around and above the temporary one.

Currently there are two major obstacles to the reconstruction of The Third Temple. One pertains to its location. The next temple can only be built where the two previous temples stood because the Holy of Holies must be on the exact same spot. But no one knows for sure where the previous temples were located on the Temple Mount. Most scholars believe that they stood where the Dome of the Rock currently stands. That conclusion may be wrong, but there is no way to prove the exact location without conducting archeological excavations on the Temple Mount, something which is currently prohibited by the Muslims. If The Third Temple is to be built where the Dome of the Rock now stands, then that Muslim structure must first of all be removed either by Man or God. It could, of course be burned to the ground by a saboteur, or it could be destroyed by an earthquake.

The second obstacle is the attitude of the Jewish people and their leaders. Currently, there is no desire among them to build a third temple. The average Israeli is very secular. He knows that any attempt to build a third temple would result in immediate war with the Muslims. Only a handful of ultra-Orthodox Jews have a passion for The Third Temple. They are the ones who have made all the preparations. But they have no popular support. Something will have to happen to create a surge of nationalistic pride that will demand a new temple. This catalytic event could be the discovery of the Ark of the Covenant.

There is a distinct possibility that the ancient temples were not located where the Dome of the Rock currently sits. There is strong evidence that their location was to the north of the Dome and that the sacrificial altar inside the Dome was the one that Solomon built in "the middle of the court" to handle the thousands of special sacrifices which he offered to the Lord on the day The First Temple was dedicated (2 Chronicles 7:7). If that is so, then The Third Temple could be built north of the Dome of the Rock, putting the Dome in the Court of the Gentiles. This may well be the solution the Antichrist will come up with when he negotiates a peace between the Jews and the Arabs (Daniel 9:27).

To summarize, there is definitely going to be a third temple. It will most likely be erected at the beginning of the Tribulation in the form of a tent temple, like the Tabernacle of Moses. A more permanent structure will then be built around and above it. The Antichrist will desecrate this temple in the middle of the Tribulation.

The Third Temple will be destroyed at the Second Coming of Jesus. The great earthquake at that time will radically change the topography of Jerusalem and all the earth (Revelation 6:12-17). In Jerusalem it will result in the provision of a very large level area where the Millennial Temple will be constructed. This is the temple from which Jesus will reign over all the earth. It is described in detail in Ezekiel 40-46.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> What is it that this animal sacrifice accomplishes today?
> What does the sprinkling of that animal blood do for a person who lives today?
> .



Fulfillment of Prophecy , it shows the temple about to be built and the coming of messiah closer than most think.

It does for the Jew what G-d told them it will do , his covenant with Israel is still in effect.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/covenants.html


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## hobbs27 (Mar 25, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Malak= Angel
> Malek= King , he was King of salem, not angel of Salem.



Just making sure we are on the same page.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 25, 2013)

2 Thessalonians 12 The reason why God is sending a power to delude them and make them believe what is untrue is to condemn all  who refused the truth and chose wickedness instead.

...............................................................................

There is no Third Temple. The Third Temple is in the mind of wickedness... Those who have passion for an actual third temple have as much charity as a snake has legs. There is not  even the goodness of one good samaritan among them; They care not to bulldoze a  man's home  in the fields of Sharon where Yahweh once lived in tents as a wonderer!  Their sacredness, their zeal for God is in vein! Their hope in a temple is a trick to hide their crimes. They take on the armour of Ephereme as if his work had to be redone! They are anatham to the prophecy of a Son, to our King our Lord Himself, to  his Kingdom, to his Grace! 

Who will crush all of God 's adversaries! What will crush  God 's adversaries!  How will adversaries be crushed? Prophecy says...Jesus and his Kingdom will crush all adversaries... nothing more than this is our great prophecy of salvation...of our being grafted to the tree of life.

 2 Samuel 13-16 13  He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me[a]; your throne will be established forever.’”

Where is the Third temple in this? Would God be a poor wonderer to the extent we need to put words in his mouth as some would feed equally babies and old men with a spoon?

Now to the question why is the end far off. God has intervened in the world to save man and to raise him from the dead and into Himself. In Jesus he gave us grace and freedom from sin. He gave us the promised Kingdom we live in now. In this Kingdom, intimately part of it, we ( men of faith and good will) are the agents of God's intervention.

We are medicine or are the containers of it--because we are formed of God's grace and we are agents commissioned rid the adverseries of God or of all that is wickedness with Love!!!!!!. We are pill containers. We can chose to open the container and administer the medication or to put it on the counter and leave it there. ( May leave it there and say, "God will sort it out." But! God has sorted it out.)

Now saints are not desciples given to condemn themselves by being the children of Grace on Sunday and something else Monday. Saints and the Kingdom of prophecy conquor wickedness with Love!!!!!!!!! Not with numbered temples, not with governments as man know them, not with Armagedons,  not with men fintooth-combling scripture for visions, and vain imaginations .

All of prophecy in scripture is centred on the Kingdom we live... it is a long way yet to be handed to our father...as scripture states it will, because very few saints even know yet the basic of the justice of the Just as part of love...which is the security of all mankind --which is our fine work to accomplish before we hand even a tent back to God. Instead you will hear today saints salivating for war and hate as remedies to wickedness. Is poison a remedy to the poisoned...according to God? No it is not. 

To love God with all our hearts and to love our neigbours as we love ourselves is a fine thing to say until we realize we do not include enemies of God as our neigbours and chose to hate. We have a long way to go. Our hearts are not pure.

If the Kingdom is to be handed over to God anytime soon, we will be giving back a  few dreamy saints and a world full of prayers for justice and a Jesus and our church of no more uses to us than entertainments.


We are being formed...slowly. Our beginnings might have gone by swiftly as we see swiftness, and being born again was a hoot, but to love, now that is a work in history all to itself...matter of fact I think we are still at the groaning stage... because preaching the gospel to all of creation seems to be something we are as yet not fit for.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 25, 2013)

Amen Gordon!


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## gordon 2 (Mar 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Amen Gordon!



The thing with sandboxes is that they are only for recess and recess are short and unusual intermissions--in the school day.

Let me perhaps end with this... I will walk in friendship with all saints...who love God. I just don't like to walk in sandboxes, once having been kicked sand in the eyes.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Amen Gordon!



Me too.
Amen Gordon.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 25, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Art...verse 34 of Matthew 24 kills all attempts of these people to hide the fact that Jesus was speaking to his disciples(v.4) about what they would see...not in a third temple but the temple that was existing then, the second temple as we all know was destroyed in the time of that generation.  Read the whole chapter in context as to who Jesus is speaking.It is the greatest prophetic chapter in the bible concerning the arrival of the new kingdom and the destruction of the old.



Concerning  "this generation" in Matthew 24:34 

Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
This generation shall not pass - Î— Î³ÎµÎ½ÎµÎ± Î±Ï…Ï„Î·, this race; i.e. the Jews shall not cease from being a distinct people, till all the counsels of God relative to them and the Gentiles be fulfilled. 
Scofield Reference Notes
[1] This generation
Gr. "genea," the primary definition of which is, "race, kind, family, stock, breed."

Several years ago I published an article about Matthew 24:34 where I claimed that “this generation” was a pejorative term about rebellious Jewish leadership.1 In today’s article I will support that claim by providing a range of meaning study of the term “generation” (Greek genea) as used in the New Testament. I will show that the term “generation” is most often used in the New Testament in a qualitative (people of the same kind) not quantitative (people of the same time) sense.

http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue100b.htm


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Concerning  "this generation" in Matthew 24:34
> 
> http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue100b.htm



It is important to note to whom Jesus is speaking and what was the questions in which he answers.

"the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world"? Matthew 24:3

Tell us
When
What sign

Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things ,know that it is near, even at the doors.

Verily I (Jesus) say unto you(Disciples), this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled


I find it hard to believe a person that champions their interpretation of the bible as being literal...yet when the "this generation shall not pass" scripture is in the way of their beliefs they must symbolize or spiritualize it.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> It is important to note to whom Jesus is speaking and what was the questions in which he answers.
> 
> "the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world"? Matthew 24:3
> 
> ...



I'm not so sure most Christians interprete the Bible literally. Some believe almost every verse has a deeper meaning than what it says. Temple doesn't mean a building, that sort of thing. Some people believe the various verses are prophetically speaking. Some believe certain verses correspond to mean or represent Jesus personally or one of his future events.
Genesis 3:8 depicts God walking in the Garden. In verse 10 they heard God in the Garden and hid from him.

Matthew 24:3 is more about the intepretation of the word "generation" than the verse being literal or not.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not so sure most Christians interprete the Bible literally. Some believe almost every verse has a deeper meaning than what it says. Temple doesn't mean a building, that sort of thing. Some people believe the various verses are prophetically speaking. Some believe certain verses correspond to mean or represent Jesus personally or one of his future events.
> Genesis 3:8 depicts God walking in the Garden. In verse 10 they heard God in the Garden and hid from him.
> 
> Matthew 24:3 is more about the intepretation of the word "generation" than the verse being literal or not.



In general premillennials argue on the side of literal interpretation.Even with that aside, changing the meaning of generation in this chapter does not fit.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> In general premillennials argue on the side of literal interpretation.Even with that aside, changing the meaning of generation in this chapter does not fit.



Let's back up to the warnings  starting in Matt. 24:3 of false messiahs appearing and pretending to be Jesus and the wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, people turning away from believing, & false prophets. 
Because Jesus was talking privately to the disciples, all these future events mentioned above happened in their lifetime?
Are you basing all this on the literal meaning of the word "generation?"


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Let's back up to the warnings  starting in Matt. 24:3 of false messiahs appearing and pretending to be Jesus and the wars and rumors of wars, famines, earthquakes, people turning away from believing, & false prophets.
> Because Jesus was talking privately to the disciples, all these future events mentioned above happened in their lifetime?
> Are you basing all this on the literal meaning of the word "generation?"



http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/The_Anti-Rapture_Page/matt24.htm


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/The_Anti-Rapture_Page/matt24.htm



I'll have to read more of that later but for some reason it made me think of all the left or right divisions people have:
futurest/fulfilled, election/freewill, democrat/republican, religious/atheist, southerner/yankee, ford/chevy, tent camper/hammock camper, hunting with dogs/hunting without dogs, polluters/treehuggers, gay/straight.

Everything really is black or white with no gray areas. Nobody likes a fence sitter.


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## Lowjack (Mar 26, 2013)

Actually the generation who saw Israel Become a nation in a day ,Or saw the vine Budding that will be the generation Yeshua was referring about , what is a Generation to Jews 52 Years , wen does that generation begin to pass away ? 70 Years.The Budding of the Fig Tree ~~~

When God begins to fulfill the end time prophecy, He will quickly make an end to it. Those who witness the beginning would likewise see the end; "Now learn a parable of the fig tree. When its branch is still tender and puts out leaves, you know that summer is near. So you, likewise, when you see all these things, shall know that it is near, at the doors. Truly I say to you; this generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled. The heaven and the earth shall pass away, but My Words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour no one knows, no, not the angels of Heaven, but only My Father." Matthew 24: 32 – 36 (also see Mark 13:28 and Luke 21:29 – 31)

Israel is symbolized by the "Fig Tree" and the "Fig Tree" is a fit emblem of Israel


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## gordon 2 (Mar 26, 2013)

A Persimmony Salad


4 persimmons, peeled, halved and thinly sliced
 3 avocados, peeled and wedged
 2 large bunches bibb lettuce, torn
 Dried cranberries
 Toasted and chopped pecans (if you live in Israel, you can use the candied pecans, much sweeter


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> A Persimmony Salad
> 
> 
> 4 persimmons, peeled, halved and thinly sliced
> ...



We love bacon bits on ours.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 26, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'll have to read more of that later but for some reason it made me think of all the left or right divisions people have:
> futurest/fulfilled, election/freewill, democrat/republican, religious/atheist, southerner/yankee, ford/chevy, tent camper/hammock camper, hunting with dogs/hunting without dogs, polluters/treehuggers, gay/straight.
> 
> Everything really is black or white with no gray areas. Nobody likes a fence sitter.



I just like to hear all information from all sides and make my own decision as to what best fits the truth, as far as politics, and other things.I study and pray, and try my best to allow the Holy Spirit to direct me on issues of faith.Im very individually minded, so I may agree with parts of one sect and not of others, this may be my biggest challenge as to finding a church home.
If you are truly seeking truth, you will indeed atleast read the link, it covers every question you have posed so far...then you can decide on your own.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 26, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> I just like to hear all information from all sides and make my own decision as to what best fits the truth, as far as politics, and other things.I study and pray, and try my best to allow the Holy Spirit to direct me on issues of faith.Im very individually minded, so I may agree with parts of one sect and not of others, this may be my biggest challenge as to finding a church home.
> If you are truly seeking truth, you will indeed atleast read the link, it covers every question you have posed so far...then you can decide on your own.



I did briefly read some of it but I was wearing my "Futurist" glasses. I'll try and remove them and read it when I'm in a more neutral state of mind.
One thing I noticed under deceivers is the only Biblical reference was Acts 8. Simon, a sorcerer, is never mentioned in the Bible, as claiming to be the Son of God. Irenaeus makes this claim. I'm not doubting the references but wished  for only Biblical proof.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I did briefly read some of it but I was wearing my "Futurist" glasses. I'll try and remove them and read it when I'm in a more neutral state of mind.
> One thing I noticed under deceivers is the only Biblical reference was Acts 8. Simon, a sorcerer, is never mentioned in the Bible, as claiming to be the Son of God. Irenaeus makes this claim. I'm not doubting the references but wished  for only Biblical proof.



There's more biblical proof to the fulfilled side, since there's no biblical proof for futurist. Theres a mix of biblical and historical records that back the fulfilled prophecy side of this.I understand you hold that to a higher standard than what you have always been taught....just because it is a popular belief among evangelicals.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> There's more biblical proof to the fulfilled side, since there's no biblical proof for futurist. Theres a mix of biblical and historical records that back the fulfilled prophecy side of this.I understand you hold that to a higher standard than what you have always been taught....just because it is a popular belief among evangelicals.



You are correct in that I do hold a higher standard in "the truth" from what i've been taught. If you don't mind what type of Preterist are you? I think you've said before but I don't remember. Also if all has been fulfilled, what period or holding pattern are we living in now or what will happen next?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 27, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You are correct in that I do hold a higher standard in "the truth" from what i've been taught. If you don't mind what type of Preterist are you? I think you've said before but I don't remember. Also if all has been fulfilled, what period or holding pattern are we living in now or what will happen next?



If you put a tag on me the closest would be amillenial partial preterist.I believe the 1000 year reign isn't exactly 1000 years, as we know in the eyes of the Lord a 1000 years is a day and a day a 1000 years.The period we live in now is Christ's kingdom on earth, the only thing that comes next is a ressurection of the dead in Christ, and a seperation.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 27, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> There's more biblical proof to the fulfilled side, since there's no biblical proof for futurist.  QUOTE]
> 
> I can see that in a sense futurist should prove their belief as well. Two verses I was just reading:
> Matthew 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
> ...


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## Lowjack (Mar 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> hobbs27 said:
> 
> 
> > There's more biblical proof to the fulfilled side, since there's no biblical proof for futurist.  QUOTE]
> ...


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## hobbs27 (Mar 29, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> What are we to make of these prophecies? Are they to be taken literally by the readers or are they to be “spiritualized” away?



I take them as fulfilled and now misrepresented.For instance the first prophecy you list was about the fall of babylon.I could go on showing examples of how all OT prophecy has been long fulfilled now, and you could go on digging them up and questioning.It will come down to whether you believe the account of Josephus or not, and my guess is you have a bias against him.
 I agree the kingdom started at the cross, but it was brought into it's fullness at the destruction of the temple in 70ad.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 29, 2013)

Matthew 16:28 "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." 
I understand what we all view the Kingdom of God differently. Any Futurist want to explain this verse? This verse says they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 29, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> What are we to make of these prophecies? Are they to be taken literally by the readers or are they to be “spiritualized” away?


Not at all.  Those verses and much of the scriptures in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation point to the soon coming return of the Lord.  
I don't believe the Apostle Paul "spiritualizes" the subject either, esp. in Romans.  I suppose that is what I find confusing about your loathe of the Pauline scriptures. 

Regardless of my understanding or mis-understanding of Messianic Judiasm, I'm convinced Israel is a clear time peice in biblical prophecy, some of which has come ( the fig tree blossoming, as in Israel's re-birth as a nation) and others we will see fulfilled shortly.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 29, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Not at all.  Those verses and much of the scriptures in Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation point to the soon coming return of the Lord.
> I don't believe the Apostle Paul "spiritualizes" the subject either, esp. in Romans.  I suppose that is what I find confusing about your loathe of the Pauline scriptures.


Nicodemus also thought outside the spiritual. 
"Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"



StriperAddict said:


> Regardless of my understanding or mis-understanding of Messianic Judiasm, I'm convinced Israel is a clear time peice in biblical prophecy, some of which has come ( the fig tree blossoming, as in Israel's re-birth as a nation) and others we will see fulfilled shortly.


Interesting. I see Christ as central and all prophecies fulfilled in him. He cursed the fig tree(national Israel), now dead, worthless and useless, "the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away." The shadow gives way to the real.
There is but one way of salvation, Christ.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 16:28 "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
> I understand what we all view the Kingdom of God differently. Any Futurist want to explain this verse? This verse says they will see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.



Art...Thats one of those verses that troubles futurist.They don't really have an answer to it so they avoid it the best they can.If they research online they will find the most common answer futurist give to it......but that doesn't make sense either and I can show them how ridiculous the idea of the transfiguration being fulfilled by this is.
Meanwhile just listen to the crickets chirp on this question.


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## StriperAddict (Mar 29, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Nicodemus also thought outside the spiritual.
> "Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"
> 
> 
> ...


 
I would never suggest another salvation than Christ, I'm sure you know that.  I just hold to future prophecies as a means that our Lord uses to confirm His word in this time, and the nation of Israel being a key point.


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## gemcgrew (Mar 30, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> I would never suggest another salvation than Christ, I'm sure you know that.


Yes and I did not intend to hint that toward you.



StriperAddict said:


> I just hold to future prophecies as a means that our Lord uses to confirm His word in this time, and the nation of Israel being a key point.


I would say the "means" is by preaching the Word, proclaiming Truth. It is obvious to me that God saved individuals out of "the nation of Israel" but the nation itself if of no value. Christ walked among them and they rejected. He told some individuals, "Ye are of your father the devil", "ye are not of my sheep". But there were some individuals among the "nation of Israel" who were "spiritualized". 

Consider Simeon:

25 And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26 And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ.

27 And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28 Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

29 Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

33 And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35 (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 30, 2013)

I account the nation of Isreal as a sign  akin to nothing regards spiritual life, although I dearly love Isreal and its people. I regard the land Isreal occupies as belonging to God and I account it as deserted, even if a nation calling itself Isreal and its people jews are settled on it. Why?

Isaiah 7:16 " For before this child knows how to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings terrify you will be deserted."

The land of Canaan which belongs to God is deserted, because the two kings there know not to refuse evil and choose good. It is this simple.

Now those who seek prophecy as mystery in those few who God chose to see his fire, as it was with Moses, Elijah, Elisah, Isaiah, Ezekial and others, forget that they have been made prophets far ahead of these for the Cross. Jesus has risen to give us peace; and it is this peace that will raise man to wholesome life in God's Holy Land.

Isreal and  the jews have always abused the land that God has set aside for them, as they continue to do today-- as we live now-, and those who cheer for them as a sign to the  good designs of God have a bit farther to walk with the Cross. Their christian prophecying is a bit off as they see a land of plenty were their is still dry bones.

To what prophets do we listen to? Do the ancients contradict the new? What is a greater  prophetic fire than Jesus Risen? Is God risen to us and greater to us for Jesus than was fire for Moses, Fire and ciclone for Elijah? And Isaiah in the sanctuary....the hot coal that the seraphs made to touch Isaiah's lips...is our Cross greater than this to us?

The ancients were prophets for the little things of God. We however have risen to a life from life itself, that is well aware to refuse evil and choose good. Our fires are not little things.

So why do we see Isreal as a sign...that they refuse good and we cheer our rightiousness in this? Because they are God's chosen? Our hearts and our lives  in salvation are God's, but have we no shame to leave them( our hearts and lives) naked and deserted not unlike Canaan. This is what God chose to give us--our life. Do we desert, abandon our hearts as Isreal quit Canaan? If we do abandon our hearts then yes Isreal can well be a sign  just as we deceive ourselves to be of the Cross and make it a sign that is empty... and for all our prayers... our judgements are illegitimate and Isreal a sign.

Legions walk in our hearts yet, and for us in our hearts Jesus is risen!? So what is our prophecy, we who have been anointed to spin all prophets? Do we spin for the legions or for Jesus Risen and the Cross? Do we know to rightly devide the word of God made flesh in us?  Are the hearts made for the saints and all mankind or are the saints made for the heart?  Is Canaan set aside for Isreal and all mankind or is Isreal made for Canaan an heir to all the earth?

Do we know that "Before this child knows how to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings terrify you will be deserted." (Isaiah 7;16) And that to chose good over evil for christians, as it was with the ancient prophets, is not a mystery?

Love God with all your heart. Do unto others... Love your enemy... This is prophecy and it is our born again flesh. 

A million generations can stand on Canaan and their poets can sing on Isreal as saint in the Song of Songs and ever to the fields of Sharon...but Canaan can remain deserted for all those generations and in this generation there is no new sign on Canaan...it is deserted--unless you don't see it. And if you don't see it... then "don't sing, " "Once I was blind and now I see." Re-think another alter call-- if only because we have been told..." Scripture does not contradict itself."
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From the elders of my church: " Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. Justice toward God is called the "virtue of religion." Justice toward men disposes one to respect the rights of each and to establish in human relationships the harmony that promotes equity with regard to persons and to the common good. The just man, often mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures, is distinguished by habitual right thinking and the uprightness of his conduct toward his neighbor. "You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor." "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven."


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## Ronnie T (Mar 30, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Yes and I did not intend to hint that toward you.
> 
> 
> I would say the "means" is by preaching the Word, proclaiming Truth. It is obvious to me that God saved individuals out of "the nation of Israel" but the nation itself if of no value. Christ walked among them and they rejected. He told some individuals, "Ye are of your father the devil", "ye are not of my sheep". But there were some individuals among the "nation of Israel" who were "spiritualized".
> ...



That's my thinking also.
.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 30, 2013)

It is good to know that I don't have to travel halfway around the world to sink my toes into Holy Ground.


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