# Something God cannot do



## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

If God has ONE plan/goal/wish for all mankind,
If God allows communication between Himself and His righteous followers (personal relationship - prayer),
If God attempts to relay this ONE plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers,
Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication.

Why is God unable to do something that seems so simple?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 27, 2013)

This is kinda like the Pope conversation... I think it could pretty easily be explained that most of his followers have it wrong and don't have the right kind of connection to him...


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> This is kinda like the Pope conversation... I think it could pretty easily be explained that most of his followers have it wrong and don't have the right kind of connection to him...



Then he is apparently incapable of establishing a proper connection, something he and Charter have in common. Seems kinda weak for an all powerful super friend, to me.


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## stringmusic (Sep 27, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Then WE are apparently incapable of establishing a proper connection, something us and Charter have in common.



I believe it to more like this.


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## stringmusic (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If God has ONE plan/goal/wish for all mankind,
> If God allows communication between Himself and His righteous followers (personal relationship - prayer),
> If God attempts to relay this ONE plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers,
> Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication.
> ...



Same thing as I posted to SH.

Maybe this will turn into a good bible study thread.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I believe it to more like this.



And we've been over this before. If he is all powerful then he has the ability to reach down into my life, knowing me since before I was born, and send a message to me that I will attribute to him and his power. So far, nothing. 

Now, circular logic dictates that the fault with my reception also lies with me, and I'm sure you'll reaffirm that. 

Linear logic, however, dictates that he is either incapable of sending such a message, doesn't care to, or doesn't exist.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

The Bible provides many examples of men who heard and understood exactly what God said to them.  They wrote this communication into scripture and we believe it to be God's exact words.  Some of these men were not Godly men seeking God's direction but they still received the message loud and clear.  Why would a righteous man desperately seeking God's direction be unable to understand the message?


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 27, 2013)

My obvious answer is because it's all made up.....


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> My obvious answer is because it's all made up.....



Your chicken dinner will be ready this evening.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

It's a feeble attempt by a primitive brain to rationalize things that it cant fully understand.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 27, 2013)

Or just has trouble dealing with - death.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 27, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I believe it to more like this.




But YOU've got it right, correct?


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If God has ONE plan/goal/wish for all mankind,
> If God allows communication between Himself and His righteous followers (personal relationship - prayer),
> If God attempts to relay this ONE plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers,
> Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication.
> ...



"Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication."

I would say this assertion is wrong, and hence so is your conclusion.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The Bible provides many examples of men who heard and understood exactly what God said to them.



Hey so have 2 BILLION of your fellow citizens today.


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## SemperFiDawg (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Why would a righteous man desperately seeking God's direction be unable to understand the message?



What Righteous man are you speaking of?


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

If it has to do with man not being close enough to God or not listening intently enough, how did Jonah receive a very specific and clear message when he wanted nothing to do with the message?  It seems like God can make Himself clearly understood by any man when He wants to.  If not, then that's something God cannot do.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What Righteous man are you speaking of?



A simple one off the top of my head would be this:
Any pastor who truly seeks God's direction in interpreting scripture.
There should only be one true interpretation of scripture, therefore all the pastors who are in tune with God should share the exact same interpretation as it was given to them by God.  
Everyone else who holds a different interpretation is clearly not speaking with God.


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## bullethead (Sep 27, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey so have 2 BILLION of your fellow citizens today.



2 billion Christians and are you telling us they all have heard and understood exactly what God said to them???


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## absuches (Sep 27, 2013)

hawgjawl said:


> a simple one off the top of my head would be this:
> Any pastor who truly seeks god's direction in interpreting scripture.
> There should only be one true interpretation of scripture, therefore all the pastors who are in tune with god should share the exact same interpretation as it was given to them by god.
> Everyone else who holds a different interpretation is clearly not speaking with god.



i totally disagree. I have heard several different sermons on the exact same verse in the bible. Different interpretations you say... I say god gave the preacher a message based on that passage the sermon was meant for someone listening that needed to hear that message. 2 years later, another preacher preaching on the same verse had a different sermon, interpretation if you will, to speak to a specific person listening (perhaps many people or the whole congregation) to relate to their lives. Can't think of any off top of my head but i'll try to remember and give details tonight. Same verse...meant to help people in different circumstances. Happens all the time


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> "Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication."
> 
> I would say this assertion is wrong, and hence so is your conclusion.



Reality agrees with his assertion since there are many interpretations of the same scripture.


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## j_seph (Sep 27, 2013)

How many of you have told your kids not to do something yet they did it anyways? They tell you they did not hear you tell them not to do that. They heard it loud and clear but chose not to listen to it period. Seems God tells many in one way or the other yet we do not want to hear it period. Like a child, they want to go on and do as they want to. You wish for your children to grow up and be successful yet all you can do is give them the guidance to do this yet in the end it is up to them. God gives you his One plan/goal/wish and how to go about it yet many just fail to hear it just as the child does.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

j_seph said:


> How many of you have told your kids not to do something yet they did it anyways? They tell you they did not hear you tell them not to do that. They heard it loud and clear but chose not to listen to it period. Seems God tells many in one way or the other yet we do not want to hear it period. Like a child, they want to go on and do as they want to. You wish for your children to grow up and be successful yet all you can do is give them the guidance to do this yet in the end it is up to them. God gives you his One plan/goal/wish and how to go about it yet many just fail to hear it just as the child does.



Called it. See post 6.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

absuches said:


> i totally disagree. I have heard several different sermons on the exact same verse in the bible. Different interpretations you say... I say god gave the preacher a message based on that passage the sermon was meant for someone listening that needed to hear that message. 2 years later, another preacher preaching on the same verse had a different sermon, interpretation if you will, to speak to a specific person listening (perhaps many people or the whole congregation) to relate to their lives. Can't think of any off top of my head but i'll try to remember and give details tonight. Same verse...meant to help people in different circumstances. Happens all the time




I'm apologize for being unclear.  When I say interpretation, I am not referring to a different sermon based upon the same scripture.  I am referring to conflicting dogma that creates separate denominations.


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## j_seph (Sep 27, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Called it. See post 6.


Isaiah 55:6
Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near
*Have You*
Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me. 
*Have you*
Love this one
Jeremiah 29:12-14
Then you will call upon me and come and pray to me, and I will hear you. You will seek me and find me, when you seek me with *all your heart*. I will be found by you, declares the Lord, and I will restore your fortunes and gather you from all the nations and all the places where I have driven you, declares the Lord, and I will bring you back to the place from which I sent you into exile.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

j_seph said:


> How many of you have told your kids not to do something yet they did it anyways? They tell you they did not hear you tell them not to do that. They heard it loud and clear but chose not to listen to it period. Seems God tells many in one way or the other yet we do not want to hear it period. Like a child, they want to go on and do as they want to. You wish for your children to grow up and be successful yet all you can do is give them the guidance to do this yet in the end it is up to them. God gives you his One plan/goal/wish and how to go about it yet many just fail to hear it just as the child does.



One way to respond to this scenario is to accept that you as the father wished to communicate to your child and you attempted to communicate with your child but you failed.

Another way is to disagree that man has to be really trying to listen to God in order for Him to be heard.  That limits God's power and is not consistent with scripture.  God appeared to man and spoke clearly to man in the Old Testament.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 27, 2013)

j_seph said:


> Isaiah 55:6
> Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near
> *Have You*
> Proverbs 8:17
> ...



See post 6. Circular logic dictates that the problem with God not speaking to me is that I'm shutting him out, rather than him not existing, or not caring, or being capable of making me listen.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

It's easy to get side-tracked with the issue of wicked heathens refusing to seek God and refusing to listen to Him.  But this thread is about righteous Godly men who, as far as we can know, honestly seek God's guidance in their lives, such as good pastors who lead their churches the way God directs them.  Those individuals should be receiving the same message from the same God.


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## j_seph (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's easy to get side-tracked with the issue of wicked heathens refusing to seek God and refusing to listen to Him.  But this thread is about righteous Godly men who, as far as we can know, honestly seek God's guidance in their lives, such as good pastors who lead their churches the way God directs them.  Those individuals should be receiving the same message from the same God.


So are you saying that each preacher should be hearing the same message and preaching the same sermon or at least topic at church A church B church C?


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## HawgJawl (Sep 27, 2013)

j_seph said:


> So are you saying that each preacher should be hearing the same message and preaching the same sermon or at least topic at church A church B church C?



Different righteous men hold strong opinions about church dogma.  Sometimes these opinions create totally separate denominations.  On this forum you can find many discussions regarding issues ranging from what exactly constitutes baptism, dunked or sprinkled, to whether or not baptism is required to get into heaven, to faith verses works, once saved - always saved, etc.  These issues are important because the varying opinions cause divisions in the church and result in different denominations.  

If I believe that Billy Graham was a righteous man who received his direction straight from God, I must believe that anyone who disagrees with his understanding of biblical issues is not getting their direction from the same God.

When Moses was leading Israel, man's opinion did not factor into the situation.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 27, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If I believe that Billy Graham was a righteous man who received his direction straight from God ...



... but he doesn't receive his direction straight from God.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but he doesn't receive his direction straight from God.



When a pastor says that God led them to do or say something, is your first response to call them a liar?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 28, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> When a pastor says that God led them to do or say something, is your first response to call them a liar?




I'm not calling anybody a liar.  All I said was:




centerpin fan said:


> ... he doesn't receive his direction straight from God.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 28, 2013)

Moses received God's word by speaking "face to face" with God.  He wrote this down as God's law.  
When someone, after Jesus ascended into heaven, states something that conflicts with Mosaic law, do you hold it to be just as credible as you would Mosaic law?


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## HawgJawl (Sep 28, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Moses received God's word by speaking "face to face" with God.  He wrote this down as God's law.
> When someone, after Jesus ascended into heaven, states something that conflicts with Mosaic law, do you hold it to be just as credible as you would Mosaic law?




Allow me to state this a different way.  The apostle Paul received his information regarding God's will the same way that any truly righteous man can today.  We don't question the accuracy of Paul's writings and believe that he clearly understood what God was relaying to him.

When we, today, are in the same position to accurately receive God's communication as Paul was, why all the excuses for the truly righteous not hearing the same thing?


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## Artfuldodger (Sep 28, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not calling anybody a liar.  All I said was:



Do you believe along the lines of others that the Holy Spirit no longer personally leads Christians as we now have the Bible written in a language we ourselves can read?


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## Asath (Sep 29, 2013)

“We don't question the accuracy of Paul's writings and believe that he clearly understood what God was relaying to him.

When we, today, are in the same position to accurately receive God's communication as Paul was, why all the excuses for the truly righteous not hearing the same thing?”


Um . . . Yes, we do question the “accuracy,” as well as the existence of Paul (NOBODY in the middle East has EVER been named Paul, for example . . . ), which would rather call into question, since the fella may or may not have ever existed, just how it can be asserted that WE are in the “same position.”  I mean, what with not knowing just what sort of position a purely fictitious and undemonstrated and terribly oddly named fella might have actually been in at or around 1,600 or 1,800 years ago.  Or less.  Or more.  Or . . . Well, uh, er . . . C’mon.  Quit thundering and start demonstrating. 

And so we’ll have to rely on the default position as to just why WE are neither “truly righteous,” nor “hearing the same thing,” nor “in the same position.”  That would be because the whole idea of being  ‘truly righteous’ is nothing more than an egomaniacal conceit designed to elevate some over others, and conveys by the statement itself a smug elitism that is unique to political and religious ‘leaders’ in all and every religion and political system that has ever existed.  Evoking one or another ‘god’ in particular to lend themselves a legitimacy they otherwise fully lack is a pretty pat pattern, and we’ve pretty much seen enough of that nonsense over the last several thousand years that it has rather lost the force of fear and oratory thunder it once had over the uneducated masses.  Now just about everyone, in America at least (over 80% last I checked), can read.  That, alone, is sort of a ‘Game Over’ for nonsense vendors.

Not even to mention the obvious default position, which answers the question whole – We can’t “receive God’s communication” because in order to do so there would first have to be an actual god that existed outside of one’s own imagination and self-construction.   There isn’t.  

Sorry folks.  “Dad said so” isn’t sufficient cause.  Your god is just the latest one in an endlessly long line of proposed gods, and you have nothing more to show than the ‘righteous believers’ in the last few thousand gods.  Once you make the internal mistake of asserting something patently silly like – ‘No, really, Zeus wasn’t a REAL god, MY god is the REAL god,”  you’ve opened and closed the same door in a single logical instant, and negated yourself.  

Will you actually stand and put forward the contention that YOU, a humble, groveling, forgiveness-seeking, unworthy sinner begging to the imaginary heaven to be ‘Saved’ are any different in substance, intelligence, sincerity, or humanity than the ‘true believers’ in all of those other gods?  If so, then may the god of your imagination forgive you your hubris.  All of the millions upon millions of believers in all of those other gods had all the same things you have – from the rituals to the ‘Holy Writings’ to the temples to the condemnation of others to the uniform smugness to the wholesale theft of property from the ‘followers’ – but you need to see it whole – once you reject THEIR god, and reject their reasons for believing in such a god, you’ve also, accidentally, rejected your own.  They had the same reasons for believing in theirs that you have for believing in yours.  

Oops.  Done went and put yourselves into a closed box, sealed and postmarked by your own faux ‘reasoning.’  Deliverable to Address Unknown, and so left forever in the Dead Letter bin along with the rest of them.  You see, first you have to have a reliable fact.  Not a malleable and endless set of words and ever-shifting rationalizations.  That sort of crap has been going on forever.  If you disbelieve every god that has ever been put forward in all of history, and can articulate a reason for that disbelief, then you’ve already explained why god can’t possibly exist – even yours.  If you CANNOT explain why you don’t believe in Zeus, or Athena, or ten pages of others I could easily enumerate here, then you cannot explain your irrational belief in the latest incarnation of the invisible.  Either there IS, or there is not.  If there IS, then you don’t get a choice – there is no drop-down menu of gods from which to choose – either there IS one, or there is NOT.  Your personal thoughts have nothing at all to do with it, nor do your Books or feelings or preferences – an actual god would have little need for your thoughts on the matter, and could hardly be expected to favor your own point of view while acting just like you do by rejecting all other points of view in favor of yours, and yours alone – that would be proposing an irrational being.  Might as well not bother having a god at all, if this god is only available to you, alone, and those who follow you.  Egomania, writ large.  We’ve read this story before . . . 

So, you see, the one thing that god cannot do is exist.  

You, yourselves make it impossible, by reinventing your god every time something new crops up and messes up your previously ‘Holy’ assertions.  This used to take a few hundred years, between ‘holy’ assertions and factual disproof of those same – now it only takes about fifteen minutes.  Sooner or later even the most stubborn of you will go extinct, and YOUR god will get put into the mythology books next to the rest of them, and will also be taught in the schools as yet another folly of humanity that cost the whole of the race centuries of progress and millions of lives.  You did.  Proven fact.

Darn.  Don’t you hate it when YOU’RE the one who didn’t read history, and were doomed to repeat it?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 29, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The apostle Paul received his information regarding God's will the same way that any truly righteous man can today.



He did?




HawgJawl said:


> When we, today, are in the same position to accurately receive God's communication as Paul was ...



See above.




HawgJawl said:


> ... why all the excuses for the truly righteous not hearing the same thing?



Because we don't live in a vacuum.  Everybody reads the Bible through the prism of his religious tradition.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you believe along the lines of others that the Holy Spirit no longer personally leads Christians as we now have the Bible written in a language we ourselves can read?



He certainly doesn't lead individual Christians to believe different things.  He guides _the church_ into all truth.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 29, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Because we don't live in a vacuum.  Everybody reads the Bible through the prism of his religious tradition.



So, reading the Bible is the only way for a truly righteous man to learn God's will.  There is no real personal relationship with God, and prayer is a completely one-sided communication?


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## HawgJawl (Sep 29, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> He certainly doesn't lead individual Christians to believe different things.  He guides _the church_ into all truth.



How many different truths are there?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So, reading the Bible is the only way for a truly righteous man to learn God's will.  There is no real personal relationship with God, and prayer is a completely one-sided communication?



I didn't say that, either.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How many different truths are there?


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

So, if God guides the church into truth, and God communicates with righteous followers through some means other than a person's own interpretation of scripture, then we are back to the original question.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So, if ... God communicates with righteous followers through some means other than a person's own interpretation of scripture ...



Does He?  What exactly is He communicating?

He certainly doesn't communicate a message different from his written word.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> He certainly doesn't lead individual Christians to believe different things.  He guides _the church_ into all truth.



I agree that God does not lead individual Christians to believe different things.

Do you believe that God does in fact lead righteous followers to His truth in some manner of communication other than reading the Bible?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God does in fact lead righteous followers to His truth in some manner of communication other than reading the Bible?



Paul calls the church "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15.)  There is no spiritual truth found outside it.  _Could_ God communicate in some other way?  Yes.  Does He?   I dunno.  If He does, it does not contradict what He has already communicated.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Paul calls the church "the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim 3:15.)  There is no spiritual truth found outside it.  _Could_ God communicate in some other way?  Yes.  Does He?   I dunno.  If He does, it does not contradict what He has already communicated.



John 16:12-14
I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

John 16:12-14  (NIV)
I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.  He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.  He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> John 16:12-14  (NIV)
> I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.  He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.  He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.



That guy talked to me at the gas station last night!  (He smelled like poo)


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> That guy talked to me at the gas station last night!  (He smelled like poo)



Did he have crazy eyes? If so, I might have seen him down in Buford the other day.

He really gets around...


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

I was raised Southern Baptist so let’s see just how common this religious tradition is.

There are many religions worldwide with over two-thirds of the world population affiliating with a religious group other than Christianity.  In America, the largest religious group within Christianity is Evangelical Protestant, however 73.7% of American adults hold beliefs other than Evangelical Protestant.  Among the 26.3% of Americans who affiliate with Evangelical Christian Churches, over 58% are affiliated with a tradition other than Evangelical Baptist.  Of the 10.8% of American adults who affiliate with the Evangelical Baptist tradition, over one-third affiliate with churches other than the Southern Baptist Convention.  The Southern Baptist Convention represents only 6.7% of American adults.  

Even if every church within the Southern Baptist Convention agreed completely on every Christian principle, which they certainly do not, that would represent a tiny portion of the world population.  

If the Southern Baptist Convention has received the truth from Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit, then who is leading all the other traditions and groups within Christianity in America?


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Did he have crazy eyes? If so, I might have seen him down in Buford the other day.
> 
> He really gets around...



He's everywhere...and nowhere.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> He's everywhere...and nowhere.





And can somehow watch everything we do without being a peeping Tom...


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## ambush80 (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And can somehow watch everything we do without being a peeping Tom...



....he loves you, man (but not in a creepy or gay way)


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

Luke 11:13
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 Corinthians 2:10
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
Hebrews 10:15-16
Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, this is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them.

Scripture clearly states that God communicates with his righteous followers through the Holy Spirit.


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## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture clearly states that God communicates with his righteous followers through the Holy Spirit.



So what is He telling them?  

Is He telling one group to speak in tongues and another group to not speak in tongues?

Is He telling one group that baptism is essential and another group that baptism is not essential?

Is He telling one group that "gay is OK" and another group that gay is not OK?

The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion.  For that, you need man.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> ....he loves you, man (but not in a creepy or gay way)



Maybe it's the sandwich and water I bought for him that time.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> So what is He telling them?
> 
> Is He telling one group to speak in tongues and another group to not speak in tongues?
> 
> ...


And who wrote the Bible on his behalf again?


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## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And who wrote the Bible on his behalf again?



Man, obviously.


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

The original question:



HawgJawl said:


> If God has ONE plan/goal/wish for all mankind,
> If God allows communication between Himself and His righteous followers (personal relationship - prayer),
> If God attempts to relay this ONE plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers,
> Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication.
> ...



Scripture supports that God attempts to relay His one plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers.



centerpin fan said:


> So what is He telling them?
> 
> Is He telling one group to speak in tongues and another group to not speak in tongues?
> 
> ...



If scripture is true and accurate, the message being sent by God to all His righteous followers is the same because there is only one truth.


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## bullethead (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> So what is He telling them?
> 
> Is He telling one group to speak in tongues and another group to not speak in tongues?
> 
> ...



Which spirit came forward?

1 Kings 22:20 and the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’
And one said one thing, and another said another.
21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, saying, ‘I will entice him.’
22 And the Lord said to him, ‘By what means?’
And the spirit said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’
And the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’
23 Now therefore behold, the Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the Lord has declared disaster for you.”


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## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

God has ONE truth.

God relays this ONE truth to His righteous followers.

Statistically, the number of people who share identical Christian beliefs is miniscule.

Therefore, the number of righteous followers must be miniscule.


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## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Man, obviously.



But the Bible is the word of God, and not Man, but was written by fallible men?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> But the Bible is the word of God, and not Man, but was written by fallible men?


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> But the Bible is the word of God, and not Man, but was written by fallible men?



I may be expecting too much of something that would want to be called God, but I would think such a worthy being would choose more capable men to accomplish the task.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Scripture supports that God attempts to relay His one plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers.



And how does scripture say He relayed His plan?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I may be expecting too much of something that would want to be called God, but I would think such a worthy being would choose more capable men to accomplish the task.



Or be able to communicate effectively to convey their message without ambiguity or confusion.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> John 16:12-14
> I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.  Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.





HawgJawl said:


> John 16:12-14  (NIV)
> I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear.  But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.  He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.  He will glorify me because it is from me that he will receive what he will make known to you.





HawgJawl said:


> Luke 11:13
> If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?
> John 14:26
> But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
> ...



Like this.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Statistically, the number of people who share identical Christian beliefs is miniscule.



Here is the Nicene Creed:


_I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the Only-begotten, Begotten of the Father before all ages, Light of Light, True God of True God, Begotten, not made, of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made:

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and was made man;

And was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried;

And the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures;

And ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of the Father;

And He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead, Whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of Life, Who proceedeth from the Father, Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke by the Prophets;

And I believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins.

I look for the Resurrection of the dead,

And the Life of the age to come. Amen._


I would say that most Christians throughout history would subscribe to that completely or with very little modification.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


>



Circular logic keeps on spinnin', I see. Not calling you out personally, just the pattern of the thoughts.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Like this.



Nope.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Here is the Nicene Creed:
> 
> 
> _I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible;
> ...


And that last clause is the whole point of this thread. 

There is not one subject in the Bible that is not currently being debated by some faction of the religion. 

Everything means something different to someone else.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

Obviously all Christians share some core beliefs. 
See post #51.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Circular logic keeps on spinnin', I see. Not calling you out personally, just the pattern of the thoughts.



The infallible God has always chosen to work through fallible men.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope.



Are you saying that those scriptures are untrue?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> The infallible God has always chosen to work through fallible men.



Since we get that message through fallible men, how is the whole message not suspect, again? 

Oh right, the Bible says it's not. How silly of me.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


>



CP, your not too far off from being the BumbleeBee character in Transformers. He talked using parts of songs from the radio and you use movie clips.


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Oh right, the Bible says it's not.



I didn't say that.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I didn't say that.



Ok, what do you say?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

bullethead said:


> CP, your not too far off from being the BumbleeBee character in Transformers.



I never watched the Transformers.  I was always a Bugs Bunny man, myself.  (Never liked the Flintstones, either.  Not funny.)




bullethead said:


> He talked using parts from songs from the radio and you use movie clips.



I love Youtube!


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Nope.



I provided five different scriptures to prove my point.
You provided "nope".
Could you be a little more detailed?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Are you saying that those scriptures are untrue?



No, I'm saying that's not how God relayed His message.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm saying that's not how God relayed His message.



So he can blast the 10 commandments on the tablets at the mount, but a quill is a challenge? Or did Moses chisel those out on his behalf?


----------



## centerpin fan (Sep 30, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So he can blast the 10 commandments on the tablets at the mount, but a quill is a challenge?



I didn't say that.


----------



## HawgJawl (Sep 30, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm saying that's not how God relayed His message.



Those scriptures are not about how he relayed (past tense) His message.  Nor is this thread.  They are about how He currently relays His message to His righteous followers.


----------



## bullethead (Sep 30, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Those scriptures are not about how he relayed (past tense) His message.  Nor is this thread.  They are about how He currently relays His message to His righteous followers.



AND I might add, this thread seems to be how individuals think they know everything about the unknowable. Not pointing a finger at anyone particular....just an observation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Sep 30, 2013)

Many Christians believe the Holy Spirit no longer guides us because we now have a readable Bible. They would say those verses quoted in the New Testament are for the disciples and Christians of that era who could not read the Bible for themselves. 
I do not agree with this belief and believe the Holy Spirit can guide the Modern Christian.
As for all the different denominations and trails we all take if we are in fact all guided by the same Spirit, I'd like to know that myself.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Many Christians believe the Holy Spirit no longer guides us because we now have a readable Bible. They would say those verses quoted in the New Testament are for the disciples and Christians of that era who could not read the Bible for themselves.
> I do not agree with this belief and believe the Holy Spirit can guide the Modern Christian.
> As for all the different denominations and trails we all take if we are in fact all guided by the same Spirit, I'd like to know that myself.



Even if a Christian believes that the Comforter was offered for a "limited time only", that doesn't explain all the communication between God and man throughout the Old Testament.  God relayed very precise and detailed information to man, such as exact dimensions for alters and arks, etc.  If a Christian believes the Old Testament is accurate, they must believe that God has the ability to communicate clearly to man with or without the Holy Spirit.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 1, 2013)

Which one of the following is a more reasonable prayer for God to grant?  Based upon scripture, which one would be more important to God and more in line with God's overall goal as outlined in the Bible?

(A) - Please God let the biopsy come back negative.

(B) - Please God ensure my loved one gets that promotion.

(C) - Please God let me make it to the gas station.

(D) - Please God don't let traffic make me late.

(E) - Please God grant me understanding in order to accurately spread your message to the world.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2013)

> As for all the different denominations and trails we all take if we are in fact all guided by the same Spirit, I'd like to know that myself.


Ive read in the Spiritual Forum that no matter what trail is taken they all lead to the same place. But I cant buy that because the differences in some of the beliefs would exclude certain people at the end of the trail that believe differently. Seems like it only serves the purpose to minimize or deflect the fact that there are differences. I mean either somebody's wrong or everybody's wrong. With those fundamental differences they cant all be right. So its all a matter of opinion until you get to the end of the trail and see what does or doesn't happen from there. If anything.


----------



## drippin' rock (Oct 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If scripture is true and accurate,



Well there you go. IF........


----------



## ddd-shooter (Oct 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God has ONE truth.
> 
> God relays this ONE truth to His righteous followers.
> 
> ...



An oak tree has one goal.
Not all oak trees look the same. 
Oaks must be doing it wrong as well. 

God as revealed in the bible is a creator. Everyone and everything can be fundamentally similar, but is also drastically different. Fingerprints, leaves  faces- all different. It seems to me the Christian is the same way. The bible says Christians make up a body- all with different functions within said body.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 1, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> An oak tree has one goal.
> Not all oak trees look the same.
> Oaks must be doing it wrong as well.
> 
> God as revealed in the bible is a creator. Everyone and everything can be fundamentally similar, but is also drastically different. Fingerprints, leaves  faces- all different. It seems to me the Christian is the same way. The bible says Christians make up a body- all with different functions within said body.




The difference is in the exclusionary nature of some religions.  God killed Aaron's two sons by consuming them with fire simply because they burned the wrong kind of incense in the temple.  That leads me to believe that the small details concerning worship does in fact matter.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Oct 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The difference is in the exclusionary nature of some religions.  God killed Aaron's two sons by consuming them with fire simply because they burned the wrong kind of incense in the temple.  That leads me to believe that the small details concerning worship does in fact matter.



Are you Jewish? Jesus told the woman at the well God desires for people to worship in spirit and in truth. Paul says in Philippians 1 some preach Jesus for different reasons, but he rejoices that Jesus is preached. Jesus's disciples wanted to rebuke a man for serving God differently, he rebuked them. 
1st Corinthians 12 is the main thing here. We all have different jobs in his body. You don't expect your plumber to be just like a carpenter do you? Sure   their goal is a completed project, but they each have different tasks to ensure it gets finished.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 1, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Are you Jewish? Jesus told the woman at the well God desires for people to worship in spirit and in truth. Paul says in Philippians 1 some preach Jesus for different reasons, but he rejoices that Jesus is preached. Jesus's disciples wanted to rebuke a man for serving God differently, he rebuked them.
> 1st Corinthians 12 is the main thing here. We all have different jobs in his body. You don't expect your plumber to be just like a carpenter do you? Sure   their goal is a completed project, but they each have different tasks to ensure it gets finished.




I agree with you if we are talking about one Southern Baptist pastor preaching a slightly different viewpoint than another Southern Baptist pastor.  

Where I don't agree with you is when one denomination or religious group proclaims dogma which is in direct conflict with another denomination or religious group and both report that this dogma was divinely revealed to them by God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 1, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> An oak tree has one goal.
> Not all oak trees look the same.
> Oaks must be doing it wrong as well.
> 
> God as revealed in the bible is a creator. Everyone and everything can be fundamentally similar, but is also drastically different. Fingerprints, leaves  faces- all different. It seems to me the Christian is the same way. The bible says Christians make up a body- all with different functions within said body.


I read all of this to just be a different version of this -


> no matter what trail is taken they all lead to the same place


While this sounds nice does reality support it? -


> The bible says Christians make up a body- all with different functions within said body.


This statement is saying all the different functions work together to support the one said body.
Doesn't different denominations, differences of opinion on what scriptures mean, predetermination of who gets saved, disagreement on how to get saved and on and on refute that statement? It appears more like some of those different functions chose to work for different bodies.
Some of those differences are far greater than this -


> Fingerprints, leaves  faces


Some of them are fundamentally drastically different. 
It all brings me back to this


> Seems like it only serves the purpose to minimize or deflect the fact that there are differences.


Feel free to show me how Im wrong if you want and I will definitely consider it but its going to have to reflect reality not just be a rosy story of how it was intended to be.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Where I don't agree with you is when one denomination or religious group proclaims dogma which is in direct conflict with another denomination or religious group and both report that this dogma was divinely revealed to them by God.



You can't roll back the Reformation.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 1, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You can't roll back the Reformation.




No, but you can believe that one side of the Reformation was being led by God and the other side was not.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> No, but you can believe that one side of the Reformation was being led by God and the other side was not.



Maybe both sides were wrong and the Catholics were right.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 1, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Maybe both sides were wrong and the Catholics were right.



Jan "John" Hus was a highly educated religious philosopher who supported John Wycliffe's project of translating the Latin Bible to the English language, which was a capital offense to the Roman Catholic Church.  Hus was a key contributor to the Protestant movement.  Hus was burnt at the stake for heresy in 1415 and Wycliffe's confiscated manuscripts were used as kindling for the fire.  Five centuries later, Pope John Paul II expressed deep regret for the cruel death inflicted and suggested an inquiry that might clear Hus of heresy.

Can you see any scenerio in which God was leading both Hus and the Roman Catholic Church similtaneously on this issue?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Jan "John" Hus was a highly educated religious philosopher who supported John Wycliffe's project of translating the Latin Bible to the English language, which was a capital offense to the Roman Catholic Church.  Hus was a key contributor to the Protestant movement.  Hus was burnt at the stake for heresy in 1415 and Wycliffe's confiscated manuscripts were used as kindling for the fire.  Five centuries later, Pope John Paul II expressed deep regret for the cruel death inflicted and suggested an inquiry that might clear Hus of heresy.
> 
> Can you see any scenerio in which God was leading both Hus and the Roman Catholic Church similtaneously on this issue?



Nope.

Maybe they're both wrong and the Orthodox are right.


----------



## fireman32 (Oct 1, 2013)

God isn't incapable of communicating his message/plan.  My belief is Gods' goal for humankind is for everyone to accept him as their personal savior. This won't happen because of mans sinful nature.  Any variance from glorifying Him is wrong, and our life should focus on being like him and letting others see him in us. If everyone believed the Bible word for word then the world would be united not devided.  Sin is the devider not Gods inability.  Christian = little Christs.  I'm sure someone will shoot many holes in my view, but My view is based on my faith.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 1, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 2 billion Christians and are you telling us they all have heard and understood exactly what God said to them???



If they didn't, they wouldn't be Christians........would they?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 1, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> If they didn't, they wouldn't be Christians........would they?



That says it all and I am thrilled you said it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> A simple one off the top of my head would be this:
> Any pastor who truly seeks God's direction in interpreting scripture.
> There should only be one true interpretation of scripture, therefore all the pastors who are in tune with God should share the exact same interpretation as it was given to them by God.
> Everyone else who holds a different interpretation is clearly not speaking with God.



You don't have to be a pastor to understand the story the Bible tells.  Most 7-8 year olds can understand it.

The central story the Bible tells is that man is sinful; the penalty for sin is death/ eternal separation from God; Christ freely died as a propitiation for us and paid our penalty for us; all we have to do to receive this gift is to accept it.  That is the central message of Christianity.  I would suggest that every Christian subscribes to those basic tenets.  

You assert that God cannot communicate with humanity as evidenced by different interpretations as of yet, unspecified Scripture.  To do so denies the very evidence that 2 billion people alive today "got it" despite speaking different languages, having different cultures, different races, different socio economic statuses,  different ages, different sexes, etc.  

There is no refuting the evidence that the central message of the Gospel transcends all barriers, and it's equally evident that your assertions have been dispelled by the sheer magnitude of evidence to the contrary.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And we've been over this before. If he is all powerful then he has the ability to reach down into my life, knowing me since before I was born, and send a message to me that I will attribute to him and his power. So far, nothing.
> 
> Now, circular logic dictates that the fault with my reception also lies with me, and I'm sure you'll reaffirm that.
> 
> Linear logic, however, dictates that he is either incapable of sending such a message, doesn't care to, or doesn't exist.



Your entire argument regarding circular logic is false.  It operates on the premise that the receiver, given X amount of evidence, WILL accept it as true.  It does not recognize that the receiver has the freedom to deny any and all evidence presented no matter how convincing, when in fact you do.  

What are you gonna say?  What excuse are you gonna give if you are wrong and you have to account for your lack of belief before God as you stand in judgement.  

"You didn't give me enough evidence."  Ain't gonna cut it in light of the fact that 7 and 8 year olds are "getting in" so to speak, nor when Nobel prize winners in science are also.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You don't have to be a pastor to understand the story the Bible tells.  Most 7-8 year olds can understand it.
> 
> The central story the Bible tells is that man is sinful; the penalty for sin is death/ eternal separation from God; Christ freely died as a propitiation for us and paid our penalty for us; all we have to do to receive this gift is to accept it.  That is the central message of Christianity.  I would suggest that every Christian subscribes to those basic tenets.
> 
> ...



2 billion people "got it" worldwide yet ten out of the sample of twelve differ about most of it just 3 forums up.

2 billion believe in something slightly similar, that I will grant you. To say 2 billion "got it" is your usual blanket boast not backed up by anything other than a few like minded people shaking their heads in agreement and taking your word as fact. That doesn't work here.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2013)

7 or 8 might have been the average intelligence 2000 years ago.
There has got to be a video of a 7 or 8 year old apologist that can sit down and explain every detail of the Bible.
I'll wait until you come up with that and then we will discuss it further.
I don't know of any 7 or 8 year olds that have picked up a Bible, read it, and understood it without the help of an adult's indoctrination in one form or another.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

Asath said:


> “We don't question the accuracy of Paul's writings and believe that he clearly understood what God was relaying to him.
> 
> When we, today, are in the same position to accurately receive God's communication as Paul was, why all the excuses for the truly righteous not hearing the same thing?”
> 
> ...



Yeah, but that's not half as bad as one who read it, understands it, but blatantly distorts it to the point of comedy in order to deny the truth.  We know what those are doomed to also.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Your entire argument regarding circular logic is false.  It operates on the premise that the receiver, given X amount of evidence, WILL accept it as true.  It does not recognize that the receiver has the freedom to deny any and all evidence presented no matter how convincing, when in fact you do.
> 
> What are you gonna say?  What excuse are you gonna give if you are wrong and you have to account for your lack of belief before God as you stand in judgement.
> 
> "You didn't give me enough evidence."  Ain't gonna cut it in light of the fact that 7 and 8 year olds are "getting in" so to speak, nor when Nobel prize winners in science are also.



And that's between me and the events of my death bed. I've made peace that I may burn for my denial, because I am being true to who I was made to be (in that instance). I'd rather be honestly skeptical than believe in something that I can't be honest about "just in case". 

It's not an excuse, it's a reason, and if the creator, who made me the way I am, doesn't buy off on it, well then I'll burn. 

7 and 8 year olds also believe in Santa in the absence of evidence as a construct of their parents, so do you really think they believe, or are just going through the motions because it wins their parents praise? 

I don't expect a truthful answer, it's ok.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

> 7 and 8 year olds also believe in Santa in the absence of evidence as a construct of their parents, so do you really think they believe, or are just going through the motions because it wins their parents praise?


Not to mention the entire education process is based on the fact that a child only regurgitates back to you what you teach them.
They cant drive, work, vote, have credit cards and hundreds of other things because their mind isn't capable of understanding the implications and what all that actually means. But of course they "get" the Bible. Just ridiculous and exactly opposite of the facts.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

> To do so denies the very evidence that 2 billion people alive today "got it" despite speaking different languages, having different cultures, different races, different socio economic statuses, different ages, different sexes, etc.


You use this 2 billion number as though we should be bowled over by what a big number that is and that big number is somehow proof of something. Uh, do you know what the population of the world is? If you are impressed by the number of 2 billion the number of the population of the world will knock your socks off.
Using your same line of thinking,I wonder what that evidence would suggest.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You assert that God cannot communicate with humanity as evidenced by different interpretations as of yet, unspecified Scripture.  To do so denies the very evidence that 2 billion people alive today "got it" despite speaking different languages, having different cultures, different races, different socio economic statuses,  different ages, different sexes, etc.
> 
> There is no refuting the evidence that the central message of the Gospel transcends all barriers, and it's equally evident that your assertions have been dispelled by the sheer magnitude of evidence to the contrary.



If I believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven, I must believe that the 56.74% of   the world population who affiliate with a religious group other than Christianity, such as Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.  

Within the Christian religion in America, if I believe that Evangelical Protestant is the religious group whose leaders possess the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 45.3% of America’s Christian population who affiliate with a religious group within Christianity other than Evangelical Protestant, such as Christian Catholic, Christian Mainline Protestant, Christian Mormon, Christian Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Orthodox, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.  

Within the Evangelical Protestant religious group in America, if I believe that the Evangelical Baptist tradition is the religious tradition whose leaders possess the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 58.93% of America’s Christian Evangelical Protestant population who affiliate with a religious tradition within Evangelical Protestant other than Evangelical Baptist, such as Pentecostal, Nondenominational, Lutheran, Restorationist, Holiness, Presbyterian, Adventist, Methodist, Anglican/Episcopal, Congregationalist, Reformed, Anabaptist, Pietist, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.  

Within the Evangelical Baptist tradition in America, if I believe that the Southern Baptist Convention is the religious denomination whose leaders possesses the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 37.96% of America’s Christian Evangelical Baptist population who affiliate with a religious denomination within Evangelical Baptist other than the Southern Baptist Convention, such as Independent Baptist, Free Will Baptist, General Association of Regular Baptist, Baptist Missionary Association, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.

I do not believe that any Christian on this forum would express the opinion that every pastor who is affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention is truly being led by God, therefore there are many more exclusions within the Southern Baptist Convention just as there are within each church.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> God isn't incapable of communicating his message/plan.  My belief is Gods' goal for humankind is for everyone to accept him as their personal savior. This won't happen because of mans sinful nature.  Any variance from glorifying Him is wrong, and our life should focus on being like him and letting others see him in us. If everyone believed the Bible word for word then the world would be united not devided.  Sin is the devider not Gods inability.  Christian = little Christs.  I'm sure someone will shoot many holes in my view, but My view is based on my faith.



Welcome to the conversation.  Thanks for posting.


----------



## drippin' rock (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You use this 2 billion number as though we should be bowled over by what a big number that is and that big number is somehow proof of something. Uh, do you know what the population of the world is? If you are impressed by the number of 2 billion the number of the population of the world will knock your socks off.
> Using your same line of thinking,I wonder what that evidence would suggest.



See this thread for a break down of the numbers. 

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=754863


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 2 billion people "got it" worldwide yet ten out of the sample of twelve differ about most of it just 3 forums.



Absurdly false and any Christian will tell you the same.  All Christians subscribe to the same central tenets.......what C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity.  Common sense should tell you it's what makes us Christians in the first place.  It's what defines us.  I realize the truth doesn't fit your narrative, but its the truth none-the-less.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> 7 or 8 might have been the average intelligence 2000 years ago..



Apparently it's above the average intelligence here.



bullethead said:


> There has got to be a video of a 7 or 8 year old apologist that can sit down and explain every detail of the Bible.
> I'll wait until you come up with that and then we will discuss it further..



I don't think I said nor implied that, but don't let the truth get in your way now.



bullethead said:


> I don't know of any 7 or 8 year olds that have picked up a Bible, read it, and understood it without the help of an adult's indoctrination in one form or another.



Didn't say that either, but again you and "respect for the truth" ain't quiet synonymous.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And that's between me and the events of my death bed. I've made peace that I may burn for my denial, because I am being true to who I was made to be (in that instance). I'd rather be honestly skeptical than believe in something that I can't be honest about "just in case".



That's fine but don't call it circular logic.  That's intellectually dishonest......and you knew it before you posted it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Not to mention the entire education process is based on the fact that a child only regurgitates back to you what you teach them.
> They cant drive, work, vote, have credit cards and hundreds of other things because their mind isn't capable of understanding the implications and what all that actually means. But of course they "get" the Bible. Just ridiculous and exactly opposite of the facts.




Question is do adults believe in Santa?  Do adults believe in Jesus?  Splain dat!


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If I believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven, I must believe that the 56.74% of   the world population who affiliate with a religious group other than Christianity, such as Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.
> 
> Within the Christian religion in America, if I believe that Evangelical Protestant is the religious group whose leaders possess the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 45.3% of America’s Christian population who affiliate with a religious group within Christianity other than Evangelical Protestant, such as Christian Catholic, Christian Mainline Protestant, Christian Mormon, Christian Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Orthodox, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.
> 
> ...




Is truth exclusive?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> ... if I believe that the Evangelical Baptist tradition is the religious tradition whose leaders possess the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 58.93% of America’s Christian Evangelical Protestant population who affiliate with a religious tradition within Evangelical Protestant other than Evangelical Baptist, such as Pentecostal, Nondenominational, Lutheran, Restorationist, Holiness, Presbyterian, Adventist, Methodist, Anglican/Episcopal, Congregationalist, Reformed, Anabaptist, Pietist, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.



I never liked them anyway.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If I believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven, I must believe that the 56.74% of   the world population who affiliate with a religious group other than Christianity, such as Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.
> 
> Within the Christian religion in America, if I believe that Evangelical Protestant is the religious group whose leaders possess the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 45.3% of America’s Christian population who affiliate with a religious group within Christianity other than Evangelical Protestant, such as Christian Catholic, Christian Mainline Protestant, Christian Mormon, Christian Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Orthodox, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.
> 
> ...



You should read Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis.  It will open your eyes on a lot of assumptions you are making.
Honestly.  Give it a read and tell me what you think.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I never liked them anyway.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Is truth exclusive?



There can be only one whole truth.  Anything else is not the truth.

"Dear God, as your humble and faithful servant, earnestly seeking your divine guidance and true understanding of your holy word, please use me as your instrument to convey your message to a lost and dying world."

Do you honestly believe that the only religious leaders to sincerely pray this type of prayer are the leaders of your particular denomination, tradition, group, and religion?

If not, please explain how all the others honestly believe that they received divine guidance from God to establish the dogma of their particular religious groups.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Question is do adults believe in Santa?  Do adults believe in Jesus?  Splain dat!


This what you claimed and my response addresses that - 


> Most 7-8 year olds can understand it.





> Question is do adults believe in Santa?


I would think no but I cant speak for every adult in existence. It is interesting though that Santa is such a huge part of our culture even though obviously he cant be proven to be real. We even teach our kids Santa is real despite that. Sound familiar?


> Do adults believe in Jesus?


Some do and some don't.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's fine but don't call it circular logic.  That's intellectually dishonest......and you knew it before you posted it.



No, I still view your guys belief in an all perfect deity who can't communicate with his people as a problem with me as circular logic. 

Either that or he's not all perfect and capable of anything. 

I'm not presenting a paradox of asking him to make a rock so big that he can't lift it, I'm asking him to reach out to the person he knew before I was born, talk to me in a way that he knows that I'll listen to, and save the soul that he supposedly loves unconditionally. 

Once again, you will point out that the problem with all of this is me, not the all perfect deity. If he's perfect and all-capable, then he has both the knowledge of how to save me and the capacity to make it happen, and yet, nothing has happened. 

You can reject my assertions that it is your logic that is circular, but it won't make it linear. 

A faithful person calling a non-believer intellectually dishonest has got to be the funniest thing I've ever heard.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That is the central message of Christianity.  I would suggest that every Christian subscribes to those basic tenets.



Your followers sit in front of you and nod their head and say amen.... that doesn't mean that they agree with everything you say...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Question is do adults believe in Santa?  Do adults believe in Jesus?  Splain dat!



Because the real explanations for the things you attribute to god haven't had a sit down with us to say they've been lieing to us since we were born.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Question is do adults believe in Santa?  Do adults believe in Jesus?  Splain dat!



Obama got re-elected, so yes, adults still do believe in Santa.


----------



## fireman32 (Oct 2, 2013)

To stripeRR hunteRR, he has spoken to you, if by no other means via this forum. You know about him, you've heard what it takes to believe in him. The only thing left is the choice you've made.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> To stripeRR hunteRR, he has spoken to you, if by no other means via this forum. You know about him, you've heard what it takes to believe in him. The only thing left is the choice you've made.



Agreed. All I'd have to do is suspend logic and observation and that would be dishonest of me.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There can be only one whole truth.  Anything else is not the truth.
> 
> "Dear God, as your humble and faithful servant, earnestly seeking your divine guidance and true understanding of your holy word, please use me as your instrument to convey your message to a lost and dying world."
> 
> ...



Why do you assume that God has the same message/same answer to everyone?  It seems that you have bought into the same fallacy many Christians also fall into, i.e.  "God must do it this way, because that's what I understand when I read this verse."  Do you really think you can put him in a box?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> This what you claimed and my response addresses that -
> 
> 
> I would think no but I cant speak for every adult in existence. It is interesting though that Santa is such a huge part of our culture even though obviously he cant be proven to be real. We even teach our kids Santa is real despite that. Sound familiar?
> ...



I didn't ask about every adult in existence.  It was a generalization and called for one as an answer.  Let me make it even simpler. Has it been your impression in life that adults Christians who believe in God also, as adults, believe in Santa, unicorns, trolls, tooth fairies, etc?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Why do you assume that God has the same message/same answer to everyone?  It seems that you have bought into the same fallacy many Christians also fall into, i.e.  "God must do it this way, because that's what I understand when I read this verse."  Do you really think you can put him in a box?



I assume that you at least believe that redemption/salvation is limited to only those who actually believe that God exists.  (Box #1)

I assume that you at least believe that redemption/salvation is limited to only those who actually believe that Jesus really existed/exists.  (Box #2)

From there, I refer you to the following post:



HawgJawl said:


> If I believe that Christianity is the only way to heaven, I must believe that the 56.74% of   the world population who affiliate with a religious group other than Christianity, such as Muslims, Hindu, Buddhists, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.
> 
> Within the Christian religion in America, if I believe that Evangelical Protestant is the religious group whose leaders possess the correct understanding of God’s will, the teachings of Jesus, what is required to be saved, baptism, a personal relationship with God, communication with God through prayer, etc., I must believe that the 45.3% of America’s Christian population who affiliate with a religious group within Christianity other than Evangelical Protestant, such as Christian Catholic, Christian Mainline Protestant, Christian Mormon, Christian Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Orthodox, etc. are wrong in their beliefs, and no matter what their religious leaders profess, they are not really communicating with or being led by God.
> 
> ...


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No, I still view your guys belief in an all perfect deity who can't communicate with his people as a problem with me as circular logic.
> 
> Either that or he's not all perfect and capable of anything.
> 
> ...



Again you fail to take responsibility for your 'free will' and without recognizing that premise, it's you who are presenting a distorted logical picture......i.e. a straw man.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again you fail to take responsibility for your 'free will' and without recognizing that premise, it's you who are presenting a distorted logical picture......i.e. a straw man.



My focus is on righteous leaders as opposed to every individual, but for the sake of this one post, if the communication fault is that man does not listen, let me ask you:

Does God speak to you?

If so, please ask Him to clarify Predestination of the Elect.  Then go three forums up and explain to everyone there that God has just revealed the truth to you.  See if any of the pastors on that forum believe that god has revealed something different to them.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I didn't ask about every adult in existence.  It was a generalization and called for one as an answer.  Let me make it even simpler. Has it been your impression in life that adults Christians who believe in God also, as adults, believe in Santa, unicorns, trolls, tooth fairies, etc?





> I didn't ask about every adult in existence.


Uh actually yes you did - 


> Do adults believe in Jesus?


Using the word adults without qualifying or excluding certain adults means all adults.
And this doesn't simplify that question, its a completely different question -


> Has it been your impression in life that adults Christians who believe in God also, as adults, believe in Santa, unicorns, trolls, tooth fairies, etc?


No that's not the impression I get from the adult Christians that I know. However that still doesn't change this -


> It is interesting though that Santa is such a huge part of our culture even though obviously he cant be proven to be real. We even teach our kids Santa is real despite that. Sound familiar?


And actually what you did was provide more examples of things that can't be proven true or real that are still a part of our culture. So keep going, you are proving my point that we as humans invent mythical things and make them a part of our culture -


> Santa, unicorns, trolls, tooth fairies, etc?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My focus is on righteous leaders as opposed to every individual ...



How do you define "righteous leaders"?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Again you fail to take responsibility for your 'free will' and without recognizing that premise, it's you who are presenting a distorted logical picture......i.e. a straw man.



I take full responsibility for my free will and am willing to burn for it if I'm wrong. 

I, the guy using ACTUAL logic, am the one presenting straw man arguments?

Do you just wake up this delusional or do you have to work at it throughout the day?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

That's hard to define.  I've tried to describe scenerios in which a religious leader is sincerely seeking God's guidance.



HawgJawl said:


> It's easy to get side-tracked with the issue of wicked heathens refusing to seek God and refusing to listen to Him.  But this thread is about righteous Godly men who, as far as we can know, honestly seek God's guidance in their lives, such as good pastors who lead their churches the way God directs them.  Those individuals should be receiving the same message from the same God.





HawgJawl said:


> "Dear God, as your humble and faithful servant, earnestly seeking your divine guidance and true understanding of your holy word, please use me as your instrument to convey your message to a lost and dying world."
> 
> Do you honestly believe that the only religious leaders to sincerely pray this type of prayer are the leaders of your particular denomination, tradition, group, and religion?



If a religious leader who has influence over many followers is relaying the wrong message and is not directing his followers in the path that will lead them to salvation, and this religious leader sincerely and earnestly seeks God's guidance in understanding His word, why would God not take that opportunity to save hundreds of souls?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> That's hard to define.  I've tried to describe scenerios in which a religious leader is sincerely seeking God's guidance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 Good question.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

Do you believe that God will guide a person down the right path if a person earnestly seeks God's guidance?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God will guide a person down the right path if a person earnestly seeks God's guidance?



I think it would be within God's power to do so, even if they didn't earnestly seek Him out. I mean, there was the burning bush, the talking donkey, the parting of the seas was surely witnessed by at least one skeptic, too.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My focus is on righteous leaders as opposed to every individual, but for the sake of this one post, if the communication fault is that man does not listen, let me ask you:
> 
> Does God speak to you?



Of course he does, but I won't be bothering him with something as silly as your suggestion.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Uh actually yes you did -
> 
> Using the word adults without qualifying or excluding certain adults means all adults.
> And this doesn't simplify that question, its a completely different question -
> ...



How do you account for adult Christians believing in God but not Santa, unicorns, etc?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God will guide a person down the right path if a person earnestly seeks God's guidance?



Yes


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Good question.



There's a lot of "religious leaders" out there whose God is money and power and they prey on the weak, poor, and ignorant in order to achieve it.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that God will guide a person down the right path if a person earnestly seeks God's guidance?





SemperFiDawg said:


> Yes





HawgJawl said:


> "Dear God, as your humble and faithful servant, earnestly seeking your divine guidance and true understanding of your holy word, please use me as your instrument to convey your message to a lost and dying world."
> 
> Do you honestly believe that the only religious leaders to sincerely pray this type of prayer are the leaders of your particular denomination, tradition, group, and religion?



If no, then;



HawgJawl said:


> If a religious leader who has influence over many followers is relaying the wrong message and is not directing his followers in the path that will lead them to salvation, and this religious leader sincerely and earnestly seeks God's guidance in understanding His word, why would God not take that opportunity to save hundreds of souls?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> How do you account for adult Christians believing in God but not Santa, unicorns, etc?


To be honest its such a ridiculous question that means nothing, proves nothing and leads nowhere that I never gave it a thought


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> There's a lot of "religious leaders" out there whose God is money and power and they prey on the weak, poor, and ignorant in order to achieve it.



So it comes back to God not being able to get his message to the people, again.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

> Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
> How do you account for adult Christians believing in God but not Santa, unicorns, etc?


How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?



That's a pair of ducks.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That's a pair of ducks.


This beats my ducks though  -


> Do you just wake up this delusional or do you have to work at it throughout the day?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So it comes back to God not being able to get his message to the people, again.



No.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?



Didn't think you would want to answer that question.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I assume that you at least believe that redemption/salvation is limited to only those who actually believe that God exists.  (Box #1)
> 
> I assume that you at least believe that redemption/salvation is limited to only those who actually believe that Jesus really existed/exists.  (Box #2)
> 
> From there, I refer you to the following post:



Box 1 yes

Box 2 not necessarily.  There are those who are saved but exist outside your second box.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My focus is on righteous leaders as opposed to every individual, but for the sake of this one post, if the communication fault is that man does not listen, let me ask you:
> 
> Does God speak to you?
> 
> If so, please ask Him to clarify Predestination of the Elect.  Then go three forums up and explain to everyone there that God has just revealed the truth to you.  See if any of the pastors on that forum believe that god has revealed something different to them.




Let me ask you this;  do you actually believe that Predestination is a central tenet of Christianity?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

Hawg it seems to me that your beef regarding belief has more to do with the religion than in the theoretical presence or absenc of God.  When you accept Christ as your savior you are not embracing a denomination but a person.  You're not joining a club but establishing a personal relationship.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Didn't think you would want to answer that question.


Do I actually have to answer a completely obvious question?


> Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
> How do you account for adult Christians believing in God but not Santa, unicorns, etc?


Of course the answer is they believe God is real and the others aren't. What possibly could be going through your mind that you would think I wouldn't want to answer the obvious. It proves absolutely NOTHING other than they believe one and not the other.
And ONCE AGAIN -


> However that still doesn't change this - It is interesting though that Santa is such a huge part of our culture even though obviously he cant be proven to be real. We even teach our kids Santa is real despite that. Sound familiar?


Your own words even proved the one and only point I have been making -


> So keep going, you are proving my point that we as humans invent mythical things and make them a part of our culture


Either prove my point wrong if you can or stop making arguments and asking questions that have absolutely nothing to do with my point or prove anything. In your mind you must actually believe you are somehow refuting something. Its absolutely amazing!
So this is the obvious answer that according to you I wouldn't want to answer because somehow you must think it refutes my point -


> Of course the answer is they believe God is real and the others aren't.


Now use it to prove this wrong or stop asking me stupid questions -


> It is interesting though that Santa is such a huge part of our culture even though obviously he cant be proven to be real. We even teach our kids Santa is real despite that. Sound familiar?


And now I'll play your game. Answer this question that I asked that you avoided. I don't think you want to because the only factual and honest answer you can give will further prove the point I made. So answer it. -


> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Let me ask you this;  do you actually believe that Predestination is a central tenet of Christianity?



Absolutely not. That was just a question that causes division in churches and could easily be cleared up by asking God if the only flaw in the line of communication is man not listening.


----------



## ambush80 (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You don't have to be a pastor to understand the story the Bible tells.  Most 7-8 year olds can understand it.
> 
> The central story the Bible tells is that man is sinful; the penalty for sin is death/ eternal separation from God; Christ freely died as a propitiation for us and paid our penalty for us; all we have to do to receive this gift is to accept it.  That is the central message of Christianity.  I would suggest that every Christian subscribes to those basic tenets.
> 
> ...




Most 7-8 year olds (unless they've been indoctrinated) will tell you that donkeys don't talk,  people can't walk on water and the dead don't rise.  Now, sometimes they get told this stuff and they accept it, and that's the saddest thing because they trust the adults telling them that stuff that it's true.  Furthermore they are told that they are wicked and sinful in nature; born to burn in He11 from the womb.  Shame,  SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on all you who have said such a thing to a child.  

I can't even type anymore I'm so angry.  No more Sunday School at Gram's church for my little one.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hawg it seems to me that your beef regarding belief has more to do with the religion than in the theoretical presence or absenc of God.  When you accept Christ as your savior you are not embracing a denomination but a person.  You're not joining a club but establishing a personal relationship.



What makes you assume that I never accepted Jesus as my personal savior?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Absurdly false and any Christian will tell you the same.  All Christians subscribe to the same central tenets.......what C.S. Lewis called Mere Christianity.  Common sense should tell you it's what makes us Christians in the first place.  It's what defines us.  I realize the truth doesn't fit your narrative, but its the truth none-the-less.



Your truth and what really goes on are often two different things.
Common sense tells me that if you polled so called "Christians", many could not tell you a single thing about central tenets, let alone what they are. Luckily Christianity has someone like you to fling out words like "truth" and "common sense" without using any yourself. Typical.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> You don't have to be a pastor to understand the story the Bible tells.  Most 7-8 year olds can understand it.



And we still await the facts to back this up......
You know we just can't take word for it given your track record in here.
Lets see if you are telling the truth, or just use the word to make it seem like you are.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> What makes you assume that I never accepted Jesus as my personal savior?



I don't.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Do I actually have to answer a completely obvious question?
> 
> Of course the answer is they believe God is real and the others aren't.-



The key, since we both agree on this is WHY do Christians believe in God but not Santa, unicorns, etc?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?



I think there may be a higher concept here undergirding the question, but I can't grasp it.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Absolutely not. That was just a question that causes division in churches and could easily be cleared up by asking God if the only flaw in the line of communication is man not listening.



Maybe Hawg.  Just maybe.  But have you ever considered that church divisions and denominational splits while oft viewed as bad, can in fact produce good outcomes?  Sort of like Joseph being sold into slavery only to be able to use that circumstance to save his family from famine.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Most 7-8 year olds (unless they've been indoctrinated) will tell you that donkeys don't talk,  people can't walk on water and the dead don't rise.  Now, sometimes they get told this stuff and they accept it, and that's the saddest thing because they trust the adults telling them that stuff that it's true.  Furthermore they are told that they are wicked and sinful in nature; born to burn in He11 from the womb.  Shame,  SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on all you who have said such a thing to a child.
> 
> I can't even type anymore I'm so angry.  No more Sunday School at Gram's church for my little one.



What do you tell your children regarding death.....they die and the worms eat them, regarding life...do what you can get away with, there's no consequences if you get away with it, etc


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Your truth and what really goes on are often two different things.
> Common sense tells me that if you polled so called "Christians", many could not tell you a single thing about central tenets, let alone what they are. Luckily Christianity has someone like you to fling out words like "truth" and "common sense" without using any yourself. Typical.




Hey there's a forum just up the road where you can test your theory.  Post your poll up there and let's see what the results are.  I'm betting you won't like the results.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 2, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And we still await the facts to back this up......
> You know we just can't take word for it given your track record in here.
> Lets see if you are telling the truth, or just use the word to make it seem like you are.



What evidence would you like?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The key, since we both agree on this is WHY do Christians believe in God but not Santa, unicorns, etc?


Wow you just proved that we agree Christians believe in God but not other man made things like Santa. Congratulations for proving the obvious (although you actually didn't because you would have to ask every Christian there is for your statement to be completely true)
Now explain to me how in your mind that refutes this which you have been arguing against - 


> It is interesting though that Santa is such a huge part of our culture even though obviously he cant be proven to be real. We even teach our kids Santa is real despite that. Sound familiar?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 2, 2013)

> Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?





SemperFiDawg said:


> I think there may be a higher concept here undergirding the question, but I can't grasp it.


You are absolutely right. The higher concept is honesty and facts. If you use those 2 things to answer the question you will prove my point to be true. Again.
Go ahead give it a shot.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hey there's a forum just up the road where you can test your theory.  Post your poll up there and let's see what the results are.  I'm betting you won't like the results.



I stay out of that forum because I respect the rules. You have 2 billion Christians  at your disposal that you like to speak for so I expect a poll of only half of them to be accurate enough foe me. Being you are so close to all Christians it should not be too difficult for you.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 2, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What evidence would you like?



That: 





SemperFiDawg said:


> You don't have to be a pastor to understand the story the Bible tells. Most 7-8 year olds can understand it.



You were pretty vague with the word "most" so I'll give you some leeway on how you want to test some 7-8 year olds and how many you will use to prove your claim. Make it a mix of some from households that claim to be Christian, Christian families that attend church regularly and some that are not Christian at all. Let them read the book cover to cover and post their "understanding" of it all. Don't go over 30,... 10/10/10, kids total to save us a lot of reading. We can judge how closely (probably exact because it is such an easy read and message) their final understanding is.


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## fireman32 (Oct 2, 2013)

It's all about choice, you either believe God speaks to you/ us or you don't.  You don't believe God used weak men to write the Bible for him. You don't believe in God because the only evidence you use is the Bible and since God no longer audibly speaks to everyone the exact same message you claim it is false.  Was George Washington  a President? Are you sure, man wrote that history book too, and most agree that he was. All history that is not your own personal history is up for scrutiny by others.  
Why doesn't God work in a way that you can understand or accept, I dunno.
From my view, you are trying to understand God with an earthly mind set, can't do it.  I won't comment on the children, that can get to personal.  Why do I believe this, maybe I'm to simple to search the universe for some theory of my existence.  I feel a connection to God when I see nature, there is no possible way I don't care how many millions of years you add up that this world self started.  I see evidence in daily living of a higher power being in control of us, it blows any logic away.
Back to the original question, short of the Bible and faith, I can't prove you wrong.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> It's all about choice, you either believe God speaks to you/ us or you don't.  You don't believe God used weak men to write the Bible for him. You don't believe in God because the only evidence you use is the Bible and since God no longer audibly speaks to everyone the exact same message you claim it is false.  Was George Washington  a President? Are you sure, man wrote that history book too, and most agree that he was. All history that is not your own personal history is up for scrutiny by others.
> Why doesn't God work in a way that you can understand or accept, I dunno.
> From my view, you are trying to understand God with an earthly mind set, can't do it.  I won't comment on the children, that can get to personal.  Why do I believe this, maybe I'm to simple to search the universe for some theory of my existence.  I feel a connection to God when I see nature, there is no possible way I don't care how many millions of years you add up that this world self started.  I see evidence in daily living of a higher power being in control of us, it blows any logic away.
> Back to the original question, short of the Bible and faith, I can't prove you wrong.


Fireman, nobody is going to argue your personal reasons as to why you believe in God. Additionally you said you cant prove you/us wrong. That is far different than the posts we argue against. We argue against when unprovable "facts" are thrown out as truth. We argue against completely illogical arguments as to why God is real, when Christians on here make the claim as to how God is all powerfull and all knowing and loves all people etc etc, we point out the facts that is in direct opposition to that. If the Christians on here laid out their PERSONAL reasons for believing and admitted they cant prove anything wrong or right as you did, there would be far less debate. And something you might want to consider is that we are not uneducated in the Bible and Christianity. Almost every Atheist/Agnostic on here was a Christian at one point. So we aren't a group of people that cant even fathom what you are talking about. We believed the same as you for a good part of our lives.
Learning the FACTS about how the Bible was created and by who, changed that.
Learning that some of things in the Bible that are claimed to be of Gods doing has now been proven by science not to have had anything to do with a God at all, changed that.
Learning how Christianity came to be the dominant religion changed that.
Realizing the Bible is full of prejudices and murder and hypocrisy, changed that.
I can go on. And what I said above are not simply our opinions they are facts.
And I'll point out that although much of your post was personal reasons you believe you also made some claims/statements yourself such as - 


> because the only evidence you use is the Bible


Uh the Bible is the fabric of Christianity. It tells you what and how and who to believe. Without it you wouldn't look at a tree and think God made it.


> since God no longer audibly speaks to everyone the exact same message


Why is that? He's all powerful and all knowing and can do anything. With a mere nod of his head every person, every Christian, every Muslim, EVERYBODY could all believe the exact same thing. Yeah yeah I know free will. The Christian version of the "get out of jail free" card because they cant answer the question.


> Was George Washington  a President?


Really? I mean, really?


> you are trying to understand God with an earthly mind set


What this translates to is you have to believe in God to believe in God. Well yeah.


> maybe I'm to simple to search the universe for some theory of my existence.


Its not that you are too simple its that you are comfortable with God being the answer and don't feel any need to search for or learn or consider any other possibility. Nothing wrong with that as long as you are honest about it and don't claim God is the only possible answer that exists.
The rest of your post is your personal feelings and reasons and you wont get any argument from me there.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No.



So God creates imperfect beings, for what reason we'll never know, he then gives us free will, am I right so far? 

He also knows each and every one of us before we are even born, am I right again? 

He is all powerful and can do anything, that isn't obviously paradoxical, like making a rock that he can't lift, right? 

Yet, the fault is still somehow with me, because my free will overrides the power and abilities of the deity that made me? 

It seems to me, since he can give a burning bush, talking donkeys, parting of the sea, boils, rains of fire, and great floods to speak to others, that he doesn't seem to be as concerned about speaking to us as much as he once might have been. 

The thought that a deity would be so capricious because some of the creatures he gave free will to turned their backs on him as to condemn them to an afterlife of torture doesn't seem like the acts of an omniscient deity; more like that of a petulant 3 year old whose toys aren't working the way they want them to. 

If the result of my exercise of the free will, and logic, that He supposedly gave me is my eternal darnation, then so be it and I go to it without one shred of guilt since I am only a product of my maker and I followed the conditions they set for my existence. Although, if I were presented, as a deity, with the same situation, then I couldn't exactly hold it against that person, those people, when it all unfolded according to my plans and conditions, anyway. 

So again, we come to the great question, what's the point of it all, and yes, this last statement/question was purely rhetorical.


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## 660griz (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What do you tell your children regarding death.....they die and the worms eat them,


 I don't tell them worms eat them. I would hope they would choose to be cremated rather than taking up land.  





> regarding life...do what you can get away with, there's no consequences if you get away with it, etc


 You are still baffled how a non-believer can raise a child without it turning all evil, aren't you? Still not sure if you believe this stuff or just using it as a jab at atheist. Perhaps painting atheist as evil helps with believing in a God capable of such evil. Really doesn't deserve an answer but...I tell them virtually every action has consequences. Could be mental consequences or physical consequences. I also tell them that is a much better way to live than, do anything you want Monday - Saturday, you will be forgiven on Sunday. J. Dahmer is in heaven...I'll pass. 
I'll tell you something God can't do. Well, he can't do anything. Santa can't either. He is a product of the imagination of primative minds.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What do you tell your children regarding death.....they die and the worms eat them, regarding life...do what you can get away with, there's no consequences if you get away with it, etc



Those are the stereotypical answers that Theists like to tell between themselves about what non-believers think, say and do for no other reason than to try to put the pedestal you stand on just little higher. It might work around others that think like you, but your world and the real world have been shown to be two different things. 

I have told my Sons that I just do not know what happens when we die. I do not sugar coat the truth though.(worms are gonna eat you too SFD) I do not make up some sort of afterlife that I know absolutely nothing about in order to ease minds now. We are all mortal. We are all going to die. Those are facts. My Sons have been taught to be respectful, treat others as they would like to be treated, they hold open doors and say Thank You. They Do, Act and Say things as a reflection on their Family and I expect those things to be in a positive way, just as I was raised. There are consequences for each and every single thing we do or say. Above all I tell them to learn everything they can about the things that interest them and twice as much about the things that do not. Don't make judgements without being informed. Be wary of of people that constantly tell you that the right way always happens to be "their" way.

You, again, obviously know nothing about what you constantly try to pass off as fact. In your mind you think non-believers act like there are no consequences and are the scourge of society. That is what helps you sleep at night but you had better start checking into your 2 billion buddies because if they "get it" they sure don't "follow it".


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

God gave men freewill therefore God can't reveal Himself to man and order them to do something because that would overide man's freewill. 

God requires faith from believers therefore God can't do anything that might serve as proof of His existence to man because that would replace faith.

If this is true, then none of the men God has revealed Himself to throughout history can go to heaven, because God has overidden their freewill and faith.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God gave men freewill therefore God can't reveal Himself to man and order them to do something because that would overide man's freewill.
> 
> God requires faith from believers therefore God can't do anything that might serve as proof of His existence to man because that would replace faith.
> 
> If this is true, then none of the men God has revealed Himself to throughout history can go to heaven, because God has overidden their freewill and faith.



That's another great take on it, Hawg. 

After reading your posts over the last while, I'd like to buy you a beer one day.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Wow you just proved that we agree Christians believe in God but not other man made things like Santa. Congratulations for proving the obvious (although you actually didn't because you would have to ask every Christian there is for your statement to be completely true)
> Now explain to me how in your mind that refutes this which you have been arguing against -



Well first of all I would start out by saying most people understand the basic concept that God isn't man made.  Secondly I would say that the reason people believe in God, but not Santa is due to evidence.  People in general base their decisions on available evidence.  People find evidence for God but not Santa.  How else does one rationally explain it.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Hawg it seems to me that your beef regarding belief has more to do with the religion than in the theoretical presence or absenc of God.  When you accept Christ as your savior you are not embracing a denomination but a person.  You're not joining a club but establishing a personal relationship.



Almost all of the debates I have engaged in on this forum over the past few years have been based upon contradiction, either in scripture or common beliefs.

This particular contradiction is:

God provides clear guidance in the life of my pastor through a personal relationship and the message my pastor preaches is divinely inspired by God.

However, other pastors with conflicting beliefs are equally inspired by God because if my pastor is the only one who is actually speaking to God, then that means that there are only a couple dozen "real" Christians in the whole world.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That's another great take on it, Hawg.
> 
> After reading your posts over the last while, I'd like to buy you a beer one day.



Thank you sir.  I'll get the next round.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Thank you sir.  I'll get the next round.



And a stogie, if your pic is any indicator. I happen to know a few great lounges that serve, and have a great selection of premiums.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> However, other pastors with conflicting beliefs are equally inspired by God because if my pastor is the only one who is actually speaking to God, then that means that there are only a couple dozen "real" Christians in the whole world.



That's the conclusion we've come to here at The Freewill Society (Dunwoody chapter.)


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well first of all I would start out by saying most people understand the basic concept that God isn't man made.  Secondly I would say that the reason people believe in God, but not Santa is due to evidence.  People in general base their decisions on available evidence.  People find evidence for God but not Santa.  How else does one rationally explain it.


I noticed how you ended your cut and paste without including my point that you are supposedly refuting. That's fine because it cant be refuted anyway because my point was fact.


> Well first of all I would start out by saying most people understand the basic concept that God isn't man made


False. If you say Christians believe that the Christian God isn't man made you will be correct. You are ignoring those who don't believe in the Christian God, you are ignoring who believe in a God but not the Christian God, you are ignoring those who don't believe in any God at all. You constantly make claims that are limited to your own little tunnel vision view of the world and present them as world wide facts. They aren't.


> People find evidence for God but not Santa.


False. I can right now list you out the evidence for Santa that is much the same as the evidence for God. What is sad is that you could too but you wont. You CHOOSE to ignore the evidence that doesn't go with your beliefs.


> How else does one rationally explain it


Think about that. You just unknowingly gave a clue as to why you make crazy claims that are just not true. Its your way of trying to rationalize what you believe. The problem is believing in God just like believing in Santa is not rational. Neither can be proven to exist despite the fact they are a big part of our culture. You just to apply that rational to Santa and say he's not real. Because your God is so important to you, you will not, can not, do not want to, apply that exact same rational to God. If you did, you wouldn't believe either one of them is real and that would be horrifying to you.  Its really very simple.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Well first of all I would start out by saying most people understand the basic concept that God isn't man made.  Secondly I would say that the reason people believe in God, but not Santa is due to evidence.  People in general base their decisions on available evidence.  People find evidence for God but not Santa.  How else does one rationally explain it.



Well, not like that, for one. 

You keep hounding this evidence of God, go ahead, lay your cards out...


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God gave men freewill therefore God can't reveal Himself to man and order them to do something because that would overide man's freewill.
> 
> God requires faith from believers therefore God can't do anything that might serve as proof of His existence to man because that would replace faith.
> 
> If this is true, then none of the men God has revealed Himself to throughout history can go to heaven, because God has overidden their freewill and faith.


Don't you think that's pretty convenient? I mean if you were going to write a story and you needed to cover the fact that all kinds of things would show the subject of your story isn't doing the things that you claim he can, this is EXACTLY what you would add to your story to deflect that.
Seems awfully convenient to me.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Don't you think that's pretty convenient? I mean if you were going to write a story and you needed to cover the fact that all kinds of things would show the subject of your story isn't doing the things that you claim he can, this is EXACTLY what you would add to your story to deflect that.
> Seems awfully convenient to me.



The definition of circular logic and circular arguments.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You are absolutely right. The higher concept is honesty and facts. If you use those 2 things to answer the question you will prove my point to be true. Again.
> Go ahead give it a shot.



Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post 
How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?

Because we can.    Whew!  That was a toughie.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

bullethead said:


> That:
> 
> You were pretty vague with the word "most" so I'll give you some leeway on how you want to test some 7-8 year olds and how many you will use to prove your claim. Make it a mix of some from households that claim to be Christian, Christian families that attend church regularly and some that are not Christian at all. Let them read the book cover to cover and post their "understanding" of it all. Don't go over 30,... 10/10/10, kids total to save us a lot of reading. We can judge how closely (probably exact because it is such an easy read and message) their final understanding is.



  you killin me I tell ya.  Killin me.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Quote:
> Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?
> 
> Because we can.    Whew!  That was a toughie.



But speaking of him, as a believer once told us in another thread, lends credibility to his existence. 

Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary, Bloody Mary (I'm looking in a mirror in a dark room as I type this.)

Nope, still here, try again.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So God creates imperfect beings, for what reason we'll never know, he then gives us free will, am I right so far?
> 
> He also knows each and every one of us before we are even born, am I right again?
> 
> ...



I can only stand dumbfounded at the hubris of this post.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I can only stand dumbfounded at the hubris of this post.



Well, the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one, so let me know where to begin with explaining linear logic to you, please? 

Can we start with a 101 class, or should it be more elemental than that?


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Almost all of the debates I have engaged in on this forum over the past few years have been based upon contradiction, either in scripture or common beliefs.
> 
> This particular contradiction is:
> 
> ...



The contradiction is based on the assumption that only your pastor is capable of speaking to God.  It's a wrong headed assumption.  On what grounds did you form it?


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2013)

> Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
> How do you account for the fact that you are using Santa in a sentence if he doesn't exist?





> Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
> I think there may be a higher concept here undergirding the question, but I can't grasp it.





> Originally Posted by WaltL1 View Post
> You are absolutely right. The higher concept is honesty and facts. If you use those 2 things to answer the question you will prove my point to be true. Again.
> Go ahead give it a shot.





> Because we can.    Whew!  That was a toughie.


I see you chose humor and deflection over honesty and facts. That's not going to help your credibility problem at all.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The contradiction is based on the assumption that only your pastor is capable of speaking to God.  It's a wrong headed assumption.  On what grounds did you form it?



Let's say that my pastor relays from God that the only way for me to be saved is for me to realize I'm a sinner, believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross for my sins, ask Jesus to come into my life and redeem me, accept Jesus as my personal savior, make a public profession of my faith, get baptized (submerged), join the church, and embark upon a new Christ-like life obeying His commandments, including tithing, for the rest of my life.

Let's say another pastor relays from God that only a confession is needed to be saved, and once saved - always saved.

Do you believe that God's requirements for salvation (today) are the same for all Christians or do you believe that God has different requirements to get into heaven for different congregations?


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> you killin me I tell ya.  Killin me.



I know


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I see you chose humor and deflection over honesty and facts. That's not going to help your credibility problem at all.



No, that was serious.  Pretty vague question.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Well, the first step to solving a problem is admitting you have one, so let me know where to begin with explaining linear logic to you, please?
> 
> Can we start with a 101 class, or should it be more elemental than that?



Feel free to start at the most basic level


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2013)

> Originally Posted by SemperFiDawg View Post
> you killin me I tell ya. Killin me.





bullethead said:


> I know


You have to admit, it is pretty hysterical what he would have to go through to even attempt to prove his points to be true.
Sure doesn't stop him from making them though.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No, that was serious.  Pretty vague question.


I honestly don't know whether to laugh at you or feel sad for you. There really is no need to carry this particular conversation any further so Im bowing out.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> You have to admit, it is pretty hysterical what he would have to go through to even attempt to prove his points to be true.
> Sure doesn't stop him from making them though.



Yeah, all I ask is for him to provide evidence for what he claims, he asks what evidence I want, I tell him.....and I am killing him.

It was a suicide mission from the start.


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## StriperrHunterr (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Feel free to start at the most basic level



Wow.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I honestly don't know whether to laugh at you or feel sad for you. There really is no need to carry this particular conversation any further so Im bowing out.



There are people on Sundays that take every word he says as truthful. And he from someone before him and so on. Every time someone new takes the pulpit they interject their personal thoughts into the mix and it becomes "facts" to them and passed on as such only to be muddied up some more and passed on. What is sad is that people believe this stuff without ever questioning it.


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Let's say that my pastor relays from God that the only way for me to be saved is for me to realize I'm a sinner, believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who died on the cross for my sins, ask Jesus to come into my life and redeem me, accept Jesus as my personal savior, make a public profession of my faith, get baptized (submerged), join the church, and embark upon a new Christ-like life obeying His commandments, including tithing, for the rest of my life.
> 
> Let's say another pastor relays from God that only a confession is needed to be saved, and once saved - always saved.
> 
> Do you believe that God's requirements for salvation (today) are the same for all Christians or do you believe that God has different requirements to get into heaven for different congregations?



Neither really.  God is the only one who can judge a mans heart and that, and that alone is what determines who he saves or not.  He's not bound to a specific recipe based on a pastors interpretation of scripture.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Neither really.  God is the only one who can judge a mans heart and that, and that alone is what determines who he saves or not.  He's not bound to a specific recipe based on a pastors interpretation of scripture.



Instead of me trying to put into words the "condition of a man's heart" which determines whether or not God will save him, and then you disagreeing with my definition, could you either put it into words for us to agree upon or just agree that there is a specific definition for it and we can call it "the required condition of a man's heart for salvation" or call it "X" or anything of your choosing.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

Surely there are a few Christians here who can put into words exactly what God requires of a person in order for them to be saved.

There is a thread 3 forums up with 679 posts about what it takes to be saved, and another with 1021 posts regarding losing your salvation.

Think of the Great Commission, don't keep it a secret.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Surely there are a few Christians here who can put into words exactly what God requires of a person in order for them to be saved.




Why post it here?  As you say:




HawgJawl said:


> There is a thread 3 forums up with 679 posts about what it takes to be saved ...


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There is a thread 3 forums up with 679 posts about what it takes to be saved ...



Did you make any of those posts?  If not, feel free to bump it.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Why post it here?  As you say:



Because in regard to a specific truth about salvation, I have been unable to make a statement vague enough and general enough for a Christian to agree with it.  It would be much simpler for a Christian to make a few statements regarding the truth, that we can then discuss.

Finding a Christian who will take a bold stand on issues such as this is extremely rare.  I wonder why that is.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Finding a Christian who will take a bold stand on issues such as this is extremely rare.  I wonder why that is.



There are 600-plus bold stands just three forums up.  Bump the thread and discuss it all you want.


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## swampstalker (Oct 3, 2013)

For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
To me, this verse sums up everything it takes to be saved. You must first believe in Him, admit you are a sinner and ask for His forgiveness. It is just that simple yet so hard for all who choose not to admit and ask for forgiveness. God gives everyone a choice to choose life or death...
John 3:17-18
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world : but that the world through Him might be saved.
18  He that believeth on Him is not condemned,: he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
You must make your own choice. Everyone that has ever walked this earth will be held accountable for their choice one day. As for me and my family, we will follow and believe in the Lord.
I have never been so sad as I am right now to read some of these posts... I will pray specifically for everyone on this board.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 3, 2013)

swampstalker said:


> For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16
> To me, this verse sums up everything it takes to be saved. You must first believe in Him, admit you are a sinner and ask for His forgiveness. It is just that simple yet so hard for all who choose not to admit and ask for forgiveness. God gives everyone a choice to choose life or death...
> John 3:17-18
> 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world : but that the world through Him might be saved.
> ...



Thank you for your post, and remember that Jesus didn't go to Sunday school to witness.  He went to where the sinners were.  It's a shame that so many other "Christians" are comfortable sitting in bible study patting each other on the back.  Some posters even refer to that as being "bold".


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## swampstalker (Oct 3, 2013)

HawgJawl, I agree with you, Jesus did place Himself in company of sinners. Unfortunately, most chrurches are full of hypocrytes who call themselves Christians as well. I have many friends who I believe are not saved, but I am not the one to judge. Ultimately it will be up to every individual to make there own choice. All I can do as a Christian is show them love and make sure they know the truth.  I make sure to treat everyone fairly and try not to judge others.  The greatest commandment of all is "Love".  We are all sinners saved by the grace of God.  I had never even seen this forum before tonight and could not sit quietly behind without responding. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
Thanks for reading


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## WaltL1 (Oct 4, 2013)

swampstalker said:


> HawgJawl, I agree with you, Jesus did place Himself in company of sinners. Unfortunately, most chrurches are full of hypocrytes who call themselves Christians as well. I have many friends who I believe are not saved, but I am not the one to judge. Ultimately it will be up to every individual to make there own choice. All I can do as a Christian is show them love and make sure they know the truth.  I make sure to treat everyone fairly and try not to judge others.  The greatest commandment of all is "Love".  We are all sinners saved by the grace of God.  I had never even seen this forum before tonight and could not sit quietly behind without responding. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
> Thanks for reading


Pardon me for jumping in but your post leads me to a question - In your, and whoever else would like to answer, opinion where do these hypocrites sit with God as opposed to Atheists/Agnostics? In other words which is worse? To Claim to believe in him but then make a mockery of him through hypocrisy/actions or to say you don't believe in God and therefore your beliefs/actions are not mocking him in any way (other than to deny him)?
Are they in the same boat?
Is there a level of hypocrisy by Christians that is acceptable? Where is the line drawn? Or is the basic tenant that we are all sinners anyway a "get out of he11 free" card? Would God say "you know these Atheists deny me but at least they are honest about it" as opposed to 
"these people say they believe in me yet they mock me with their actions"?
Thoughts?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 4, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> ... In your, and whoever else would like to answer, opinion where do these hypocrites sit with God as opposed to Atheists/Agnostics? In other words which is worse?



I don't recall Jesus ever addressing atheists, but He said this about hypocrites:


13 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14] *

15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of he11 as you are.

16 “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gold of the temple is bound by that oath.’ 17 You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred? 18 You also say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it means nothing; but anyone who swears by the gift on the altar is bound by that oath.’ 19 You blind men! Which is greater: the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 Therefore, anyone who swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21 And anyone who swears by the temple swears by it and by the one who dwells in it. 22 And anyone who swears by heaven swears by God’s throne and by the one who sits on it.

23 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24 You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

25 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. 28 In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

29 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30 And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31 So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32 Go ahead, then, and complete what your ancestors started!

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to he11?

-- Matt. 23*


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 4, 2013)

> 33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to he11?


Pretty much answers this part of my question -


> where do these hypocrites sit with God


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## HawgJawl (Oct 4, 2013)

swampstalker said:


> HawgJawl, I agree with you, Jesus did place Himself in company of sinners. Unfortunately, most chrurches are full of hypocrytes who call themselves Christians as well. I have many friends who I believe are not saved, but I am not the one to judge. Ultimately it will be up to every individual to make there own choice. All I can do as a Christian is show them love and make sure they know the truth.  I make sure to treat everyone fairly and try not to judge others.  The greatest commandment of all is "Love".  We are all sinners saved by the grace of God.  I had never even seen this forum before tonight and could not sit quietly behind without responding. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ.
> Thanks for reading



I appreciate your honesty.

Do you have any thoughts on the following:



HawgJawl said:


> Which one of the following is a more reasonable prayer for God to grant?  Based upon scripture, which one would be more important to God and more in line with God's overall goal as outlined in the Bible?
> 
> (A) - Please God let the biopsy come back negative.
> 
> ...


----------



## swampstalker (Oct 4, 2013)

HawgJawl, In my opinion, God hears all prayers and doesnt look at one as more important than another.  When I pray about specific circumstances in my life and in others around me, I always pray that the Lords will be done no matter the outcome. There are many times I pray for specifics and do not recieve the answer to my prayers in the way that I would have hoped, but I know and trust that the Lord knows what is best for my life.  For example, a close relative of mine is extremely ill. I pray that if it is His will, God will heal the sickness. I pray that the Lord will comfort my family in these hard times. God can and does use situations to help advance his Kingdom. If it takes me getting sick or even dying to influence just one person to become a Christian, then I am all for it. Once you come to the realization that this body is only temporary and that someone may take your life but they cannot change your salvation, you start looking at this time we are given on this earth differently. One thing is for sure, we all will die one day, but those who are saved will live forever in Heaven with the Lord.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2013)

swampstalker said:


> HawgJawl, In my opinion, God hears all prayers and doesnt look at one as more important than another.  When I pray about specific circumstances in my life and in others around me, I always pray that the Lords will be done no matter the outcome. There are many times I pray for specifics and do not recieve the answer to my prayers in the way that I would have hoped, but I know and trust that the Lord knows what is best for my life.  For example, a close relative of mine is extremely ill. I pray that if it is His will, God will heal the sickness. I pray that the Lord will comfort my family in these hard times. God can and does use situations to help advance his Kingdom. If it takes me getting sick or even dying to influence just one person to become a Christian, then I am all for it. Once you come to the realization that this body is only temporary and that someone may take your life but they cannot change your salvation, you start looking at this time we are given on this earth differently. One thing is for sure, we all will die one day, but those who are saved will live forever in Heaven with the Lord.



When I pray, I pray for God to change his will. If my loved one is dying of cancer, I want God to intervene, change his mind and save them. No use praying for God's will to be done because it will anyway.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 4, 2013)

swampstalker said:


> HawgJawl, In my opinion, God hears all prayers and doesnt look at one as more important than another.  When I pray about specific circumstances in my life and in others around me, I always pray that the Lords will be done no matter the outcome. There are many times I pray for specifics and do not recieve the answer to my prayers in the way that I would have hoped, but I know and trust that the Lord knows what is best for my life.  For example, a close relative of mine is extremely ill. I pray that if it is His will, God will heal the sickness. I pray that the Lord will comfort my family in these hard times. God can and does use situations to help advance his Kingdom. If it takes me getting sick or even dying to influence just one person to become a Christian, then I am all for it. Once you come to the realization that this body is only temporary and that someone may take your life but they cannot change your salvation, you start looking at this time we are given on this earth differently. One thing is for sure, we all will die one day, but those who are saved will live forever in Heaven with the Lord.



I realize that there could be many reasons for God to choose not to grant a person's wish exactly the way they wish it, when they wish it, but can you think of a reason God would not want a righteous Christian to have an accurate understanding of scripture?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There are 600-plus bold stands just three forums up.  Bump the thread and discuss it all you want.



I took your advise and asked the question 3 forums up but no one will respond to me.  A friendly bunch up there.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Oct 4, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I realize that there could be many reasons for God to choose not to grant a person's wish exactly the way they wish it, when they wish it, but can you think of a reason God would not want a righteous Christian to have an accurate understanding of scripture?



I can't. God requires  Christians to be obedient and faithful. One would assume in order for us to do this, the rules of obedience would be tattooed on our hearts. How would God perform this task?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I took your advise and asked the question 3 forums up but no one will respond to me.  A friendly bunch up there.



It's not their fault.  They mostly come from broken homes and circus families.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I took your advise and asked the question 3 forums up but no one will respond to me.  A friendly bunch up there.



No one "up there" wants to deal with anything that might rock the boat. If they feel threatened the post disappears.


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 7, 2013)

IMHO, If GOD were to have open communication with us it would remove the free will aspect that he has granted us. By being reserved and not talking or not making his presence 100% varifilable it leaves his exsistance in question. By leaving his exsistance in question like this you have to make a choice believe or not believe which is the basis of FREE WILL.  This is why we argue so much here in the forum because of free will. 
I hope this makes sense.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Surely there are a few Christians here who can put into words exactly what God requires of a person in order for them to be saved.
> 
> There is a thread 3 forums up with 679 posts about what it takes to be saved, and another with 1021 posts regarding losing your salvation.
> 
> Think of the Great Commission, don't keep it a secret.



Easy..........
Romans 10:9-10
New Living Translation (NLT)

9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> Easy..........
> Romans 10:9-10
> New Living Translation (NLT)
> 
> 9 If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is by believing in your heart that you are made right with God, and it is by confessing with your mouth that you are saved.



So my actions are removed from my belief and my confessions?


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So my actions are removed from my belief and my confessions?



well that would make you a liar...
1 John 2:4
New King James Version (NKJV)

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> well that would make you a liar...
> 1 John 2:4
> New King James Version (NKJV)
> 
> 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.



That's what I thought, thanks. Still, yours was an incomplete answer to Hawg the first time, since this is obviously a requirement to being a child of God. 

What else is missing and how strict are those commandments? Keeping the Sabbath holy, for example; does that mean keeping it like the Amish say, or how new age Christians say?


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That's what I thought, thanks. Still, yours was an incomplete answer to Hawg the first time, since this is obviously a requirement to being a child of God.
> 
> What else is missing and how strict are those commandments? Keeping the Sabbath holy, for example; does that mean keeping it like the Amish say, or how new age Christians say?



not strict at all, you see Jesus obeyed them all, so we would not have to. all Jesus ask is that we walk in love.

Romans 13:10
New King James Version (NKJV)

10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> not strict at all, you see Jesus obeyed them all, so we would not have to. all Jesus ask is that we walk in love.
> 
> Romans 13:10
> New King James Version (NKJV)
> ...



I'm trying to wrap my mind around your position here, so please don't think I'm trolling. 

So you could do anything with a repentant heart, to yourself, and it would be ok?


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I'm trying to wrap my mind around your position here, so please don't think I'm trolling.
> 
> So you could do anything with a repentant heart, to yourself, and it would be ok?



I don,t get what you are talking about? if you are asking can a christian do anything and be forgivin  the answer is yes, but the key is (a repentant heart) God knows the heart of man.

1 Samuel 16:7
King James Version (KJV)

7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I don,t get what you are talking about? if you are asking can a christian do anything and be forgivin  the answer is yes, but the key is (a repentant heart) God knows the heart of man.
> 
> 1 Samuel 16:7
> King James Version (KJV)
> ...



My point being that all sin is transient, by your post here, and that there are no things that are truly mortal sins, since a repentant heart absolves all, right? 

That's the take that I would have on it, given the compassionate, as some of us are told, nature of God. However, there are many who would say that all 10 are unforgiveable sins, and there are many more unforgiveables in the Bible. 

Where's da troof, and who's preaching it, since each of you two groups would likely say that the other is misinterpreting?


----------



## 660griz (Oct 7, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> My point being that all sin is transient, by your post here, and that there are no things that are truly mortal sins, since a repentant heart absolves all, right?



Jeffrey Dahmer is supposedly in 'heaven'. Nuff said.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 7, 2013)

660griz said:


> Jeffrey Dahmer is supposedly in 'heaven'. Nuff said.



That would be one denomination/belief's take on it.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 7, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> That would be one denomination/belief's take on it.



Well yea. Specifically the guy that saved him. 
However, I think you will find most christians believe you can be saved/go to heaven, no matter what you have done in the past. (As long as your 'heart' is right with God) Whatever that means.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 7, 2013)

660griz said:


> Well yea. Specifically the guy that saved him.
> However, I think you will find most christians believe you can be saved/go to heaven, no matter what you have done in the past. (As long as your 'heart' is right with God) Whatever that means.



We all know that the dichotomy exists. What interests me is the individual take on it, like our other respondent here. 

How can an individual square that large of a discrepancy between supposed members of the same faith? Lastly, how can they square that discrepancy with one God, with one message, yet myriad religions and interpretations?


----------



## 660griz (Oct 7, 2013)

Good luck. There are bible verses that state speaking against the holy spirit can not be forgiven which seems to contradict verses in John. Various interpretations(bible translations, catholics, mormons, etc) of that plus a personal spin to others could lead to as many individual takes as individuals.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 7, 2013)

piratebob64 said:


> IMHO, If GOD were to have open communication with us it would remove the free will aspect that he has granted us. By being reserved and not talking or not making his presence 100% varifilable it leaves his exsistance in question. By leaving his exsistance in question like this you have to make a choice believe or not believe which is the basis of FREE WILL.  This is why we argue so much here in the forum because of free will.
> I hope this makes sense.



Did any of the people who actually met Jesus while He was on earth have free will?  Did any of the people who God revealed Himself to throughout the Old Testament have free will?


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> My point being that all sin is transient, by your post here, and that there are no things that are truly mortal sins, since a repentant heart absolves all, right?
> 
> That's the take that I would have on it, given the compassionate, as some of us are told, nature of God. However, there are many who would say that all 10 are unforgiveable sins, and there are many more unforgiveables in the Bible.
> 
> Where's da troof, and who's preaching it, since each of you two groups would likely say that the other is misinterpreting?



I don,t give a flying flip what OTHERS say, I go by what JESUS said...lol...

Matthew 12:30-32
Amplified Bible (AMP)

30 He who is not with Me [definitely [a]on My side] is against Me, and he who does not [definitely] gather with Me and for *My side scatters.

31 Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy (every evil, abusive, [c]injurious speaking, or indignity against sacred things) can be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the [Holy] Spirit shall not and [d]cannot be forgiven.

32 And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Spirit, the Holy One, will not be forgiven, either in this world and age or in the world and age to come.*


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2013)

Another scripture lesson.......If we believed any of that there would be no need for these discussions. If you have anything to support your view outside of quoting scripture (that is backed up no where else but in scripture) then please come forward with it.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

Well All I go by is the word, so that is all I got, and all I need.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> Well All I go by is the word, so that is all I got, and all I need.



Clay servant,
Thanks for posting.
Do you have an opinion on the following:



piratebob64 said:


> IMHO, If GOD were to have open communication with us it would remove the free will aspect that he has granted us. By being reserved and not talking or not making his presence 100% varifilable it leaves his exsistance in question. By leaving his exsistance in question like this you have to make a choice believe or not believe which is the basis of FREE WILL.  This is why we argue so much here in the forum because of free will.
> I hope this makes sense.





HawgJawl said:


> Did any of the people who actually met Jesus while He was on earth have free will?  Did any of the people who God revealed Himself to throughout the Old Testament have free will?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> Well All I go by is the word, so that is all I got, and all I need.



I completely understand that works for you. I am not saying that is a bad thing. What I am saying is that a good majority in here are not satisfied with those words, we are looking for more.


----------



## fireman32 (Oct 7, 2013)

Hawgjawl if I may offer an opinion, free will has been around since creation. Which is one reason for The Debil, and Adam and Eves original sin, you always have a choice.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 7, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> Hawgjawl if I may offer an opinion, free will has been around since creation. Which is one reason for The Debil, and Adam and Eves original sin, you always have a choice.



In order for that to be true Adam and Eve would had to be the first two humans on the planet. Are you saying that they were?


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Clay servant,
> Thanks for posting.
> Do you have an opinion on the following:



We have free will and God does speak to his children, and we can know Gods will for us....

2 Peter 3:9
King James Version (KJV)

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Gods will is that all be saved, BUT all will not, so we can see that Gods will does NOT always happen as some people preach. they say God is in control, that is not true, he is only in control of the people that allow him to take control. I know that I will be knocking over some Sacred cows But that is just to bad for the cow...lol.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I completely understand that works for you. I am not saying that is a bad thing. What I am saying is that a good majority in here are not satisfied with those words, we are looking for more.



Yes I know that, and I do not want to push anything on you guys in any way, I am just a 49 year old Minister that has been through heck and back, I had a 25 year Alcohol Addiciton and GOD set me free 2 years and 76 days ago,
So I just want to be of help to anyone I can.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 7, 2013)

clayservant said:


> We have free will and God does speak to his children, and we can know Gods will for us....
> 
> 2 Peter 3:9
> King James Version (KJV)
> ...



So then I assume that you disagree with the following?



piratebob64 said:


> IMHO, If GOD were to have open communication with us it would remove the free will aspect that he has granted us. By being reserved and not talking or not making his presence 100% varifilable it leaves his exsistance in question. By leaving his exsistance in question like this you have to make a choice believe or not believe which is the basis of FREE WILL.  This is why we argue so much here in the forum because of free will.
> I hope this makes sense.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 7, 2013)

YES I Do. Free will has NOTHING to do with talking to someone.


----------



## fireman32 (Oct 7, 2013)

bullethead said:


> In order for that to be true Adam and Eve would had to be the first two humans on the planet. Are you saying that they were?



They were the first the Bible speaks of, I'm sure you will argue that human remains have been discovered that predate the perceived biblical time line.  To that I will say, God may have created more people than just Adam, I don't know, nor do I know what Adam looked like other than he was in Gods image.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 8, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I don,t give a flying flip what OTHERS say, I go by what JESUS said...lol...
> 
> Matthew 12:30-32
> Amplified Bible (AMP)
> ...


*

That's what OTHERS are saying Jesus said...*


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 8, 2013)

clayservant said:


> Yes I know that, and I do not want to push anything on you guys in any way, I am just a 49 year old Minister that has been through heck and back, I had a 25 year Alcohol Addiciton and GOD set me free 2 years and 76 days ago,
> So I just want to be of help to anyone I can.



Another minister....


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I don,t give a flying flip what OTHERS say, I go by what JESUS said...lol...
> 
> Matthew 12:30-32
> Amplified Bible (AMP)
> ...


*

Ok, I can understand that this is the rock of your faith. 

How do you wrap your head around the multiple Bibles, though? 

EDIT: I posted this before reading the remainder of the thread, so I had no idea you are a minister. Sincerely, thank you for taking the time to talk to us, as I always like to have an expert's take on this. 

OT, NT, KJV, I think I've seen some quote an NIT, and so on. 

Do you take them all as what Jesus said, at least in the specific passages where he is quoted, or do you pick and choose? 

I won't presume to tell you that any of that is wrong, per se, I'm just curious how the faithful can square that within themselves?*


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> They were the first the Bible speaks of, I'm sure you will argue that human remains have been discovered that predate the perceived biblical time line.  To that I will say, God may have created more people than just Adam, I don't know, nor do I know what Adam looked like other than he was in Gods image.



I just wanted to be clear (so I know what we are dealing with) that you are willing to overlook obvious facts and replace them with the non-facts of the Bible.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2013)

clayservant said:


> Yes I know that, and I do not want to push anything on you guys in any way, I am just a 49 year old Minister that has been through heck and back, I had a 25 year Alcohol Addiciton and GOD set me free 2 years and 76 days ago,
> So I just want to be of help to anyone I can.



Were you a Minister before the addiction or have you become one since?
I appreciate your participation in here.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's what OTHERS are saying Jesus said...



Precisely


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> How do you wrap your head around the multiple Bibles, though?



They're just different translations.  It's not like one says He was born in Bethlehem and another says He was born in Snellville.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 8, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I am just a 49 year old Minister that has been through heck and back, I had a 25 year Alcohol Addiciton and GOD set me free 2 years and 76 days ago,



I have noticed a trend. It seems that folks with an issue with moderation often go from one extreme to another. I have started asking REALLY religious folks if they were 'wild' back in the day. Oh the stories I get. And yet another example why <insert diety> is needed by some.
Kinda makes me sad.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> They're just different translations.  It's not like one says He was born in Bethlehem and another says He was born in Snellville.



If such a basic data point can be shrugged off, even as allegory, then I don't know how any believer could ever hope to convince anyone that any other message in the Bible is factual.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> If such a basic data point can be shrugged off, even as allegory, then I don't know how any believer could ever hope to convince anyone that any other message in the Bible is factual.





What are you talking about?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> They're just different translations.  It's not like one says He was born in Bethlehem and another says He was born in Snellville.



I misread what you wrote, so my reply would certainly not make sense given what you did say. My bad. 



centerpin fan said:


> What are you talking about?



What I am talking about is how does one square the different Bibles, and why differentiate at all? 

Why denote which quote came from the KJV, NIT, or whatever other versions there are? As far as what Jesus said, and the message they're trying to convey, shouldn't they be 100% identical?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Why denote which quote came from the KJV, NIT, or whatever other versions there are?



I was wondering that myself.  

I don't "mix and match" translations and usually just quote the NIV, solely because that's the default version on Bible Gateway.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> As far as what Jesus said, and the message they're trying to convey, shouldn't they be 100% identical?



Very close but not identical.  It's dependent on the Greek text used, the translation theory, and biases of the translators.

For example, here's John 3:5 in multiple translations:

http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I was wondering that myself.
> 
> I don't "mix and match" translations and usually just quote the NIV, solely because that's the default version on Bible Gateway.



http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/

Ok, and this is directed at the number of Bibles on Bible Gateway but not you, so how are there 183 different bibles on this site, and why do they choose the NIV? 

Sure, some differences are purely translation, like English to Spanish, but even then colloquialisms, or euphemisms, don't always. 

So here we have 183, not 5-6, different takes on what should be the same story, if God is the divine author. 

I was less skeptical before you armed me with the knowledge of BG.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Very close but not identical.  It's dependent on the Greek text used, the translation theory, and biases of the translators.
> 
> For example, here's John 3:5 in multiple translations:
> 
> http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm



Agreed, and I can accommodate cultural and lingual disparities.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/
> 
> Ok, and this is directed at the number of Bibles on Bible Gateway but not you, so how are there 183 different bibles on this site, and why do they choose the NIV?



It's the #1 seller.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> It's the #1 seller.



So much I want to say about this that it's overclocking my processor.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So here we have 183, not 5-6, different takes on what should be the same story, if God is the divine author.



I did a quick count and came up with forty-six English translations.  Many of those are just updated versions of the same translation.  (I counted three NIV's and four NRSV's.)  Many of the others are pretty obscure.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So much I want to say about this that it's overclocking my processor.



Bible sales as of September:

http://www.cbaonline.org/nm/documents/BSLs/Bible_Translations.pdf


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I did a quick count and came up with forty-six English translations.  Many of those are just updated versions of the same translation.  (I counted three NIV's and four NRSV's.)  Many of the others are pretty obscure.



So you immediately discount the messages in languages you don't speak or read, and anything determined to be "obscure"? 

I thought each of these were the true words of God, especially to people who can read it. 

I wonder what the Bulgarians, for example, would make of you being so flippant about their Bible.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Bible sales as of September:
> 
> http://www.cbaonline.org/nm/documents/BSLs/Bible_Translations.pdf



That doesn't help. 

If the word is based on how well it sells then Oprah is the second coming since any book she slaps with the O sticker destroys the #2 on the list, unless it also has an O and has been around longer on her list. 

The problem with saying that THE bible is THE WORD of God is that there are so many Bibles, and that the criteria you subscribe to, since you accept their default Bible, in order to discern which one is factual is sales.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So you immediately discount the messages in languages you don't speak or read, and anything determined to be "obscure"?



I'm an American.  I only speak two languages:  English and bad English.

I'm sure the Chinese, German, and Italian versions are fine for them.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm an American.  I only speak two languages:  English and bad English.
> 
> I'm sure the Chinese, German, and Italian versions are fine for them.



Fair enough, but it still speaks to the core issue that we're discussing. There are multiple versions of the English Bible, which one is right and why? 

I know your answer, how about everyone else? 

Someone put that book in your hands and said this one is it, or did you read all of them and decide you like this one best?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> The problem with saying that THE bible is THE WORD of God is that there are so many Bibles ...




There are many _translations_.  As I said before:




centerpin fan said:


> It's not like one says He was born in Bethlehem and another says He was born in Snellville.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There are many _translations_.  As I said before:



As I said before, which one is correct? 

If the Bible is used to judge sins, mortal and otherwise, then one has to be the version used by God himself, otherwise the whole state is a sliding scale to whomever is holding the book, and what meaning does that have for anyone outside of their own heads?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> As I said before, which one is correct?



Read the link in post 268 and tell me the significant differences between translations.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

For a practical example, let's drop all religious overtone from this discussion for a second. Let's make it reality. 

Say we live in Ubunutu. A fictional place with fictional laws. 

One version of the constitution of Ubuntu says that keeping livestock is punishable by death, while another says that the owner loses a hand, whereas yet another says that the owner should be given tax concessions in order to raise more livestock. 

All 3 versions are accepted, and have been ratified, by at least some portion of the population of Ubuntu, at this moment, even ignoring the possibility of different languages. 

Now, since that act is a crime punishable by death according to one translation, by forfeiture of limbs in another, and rewarded in a third, how can there be any consensus and, more importantly, a claim of common authorship of those laws? 

It doesn't hold up to logic.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Read the link in post 268 and tell me the significant differences between translations.



Sure, in one verse the differences may not be all that great. 

Still we have Amish who won't do anything on Sundays because of the commandment, and those who actively work on Sundays to make money. One of them, given the nature of the commandments, and the plain language to keep it holy, is wrong. 

Without getting into relativistic arguments about the Amish choosing which one is right for them, who is right? 

That's right, they both are for themselves, and neither are for each other. 

That's the core principle that I was trying to speak to when I coined the phrase religious relativism, and it only gets more relative the deeper you dig, so can, therefore, not ever be considered factual in ANY sense of the term.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> One version of the constitution of Ubuntu says that keeping livestock is punishable by death, while another says that the owner loses a hand, whereas yet another says that the owner should be given tax concessions in order to raise more livestock.



False analogy.  Jesus tells Nicodemus _the same thing_ in John 3:5 in every translation.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Still we have Amish who won't do anything on Sundays ...



... but that's not due to difference in Bible versions.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> False analogy.  Jesus tells Nicodemus _the same thing_ in John 3:5 in every translation.



Every translation you can read, that is, or isn't obscure to you. 

And sure, if you get microscopic, you'll see commonalities like that, but that can easily be disproved once you account for confirmation bias.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but that's not due to difference in Bible versions.



One of them is committing a sin, according to the same book, yet one of them is also okay with that while the other remains pure.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> One of them is committing a sin, according to the same book ...



... according to their _interpretations _of that same book.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... according to their _interpretations _of that same book.



So the sin only exists in a person's interpretation of the Bible now? 

Whoo hoo! There are no sins, anymore. 

Disrespect your parents, murder, covet Billy's wife; it's all good now!


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

You're tiptoeing around the main question I asked, and you know it. Which Bible and "interpretation" is God using to judge the sinners?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> You're tiptoeing around the main question I asked, and you know it. Which Bible and "interpretation" is God using to judge the sinners?



I'm not tiptoeing around anything.  I've already addressed it.  Your question assumes that the different Bible versions teach different things  -- and they don't.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> So the sin only exists in a person's interpretation of the Bible now?



No, although that's the entire premise behind the Queen James Bible.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm not tiptoeing around anything.  I've already addressed it.  Your question assumes that the different Bible versions teach different things  -- and they don't.



And yet the people get different notions from it. 

Blame that on the people, but if the message were clear you wouldn't have that as much. 

If the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy is clear, and the punishment for violating it were clear, which last I read they were, then there should be precisely 0 Christians in violation since no one wants to burn. Yet, even on one of the ten commandments we have disagreement on the severity of the sin. 

You can argue that this is the result of people all you want, but if the message were clear...


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, although that's the entire premise behind the Queen James Bible.



I'm assuming that this is a typo or a joke on the King. 

Yet, there are people, myself included, who followed the KJV as much as you follow the NIV. What are the differences again? Right, relativism of sin, nothing important like confusing Bethlehem for Norcross, if I remember your earlier post.

EDIT: Sorry, Snellville. Same difference.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> I'm assuming that this is a typo or a joke on the King.



No typo and no joke:

http://www.amazon.com/The-Queen-James-Bible-Anonymous/dp/0615724531


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No typo and no joke:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/The-Queen-James-Bible-Anonymous/dp/0615724531



And how are they different than the actual King James? He wanted a divorce, so he wrote a Bible. 

How far is it to stretch that to be "someone else who wanted to be in charge and control people" wrote a Bible?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

And you're still cherry picking my posts and addressing the veggies and potatoes, but ignoring the meat.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And you're still cherry picking my posts and addressing the veggies and potatoes, but ignoring the meat.



Post it again because I don't think I'm ignoring or cherry-picking anything.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And yet the people get different notions from it.



Absolutely.  John 3:5 says the same thing in every version but different people interpret it differently.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

The Meat:

 What are the differences again? Right, relativism of sin, nothing important like confusing Bethlehem for Norcross, if I remember your earlier post.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> And how are they different than the actual King James? He wanted a divorce, so he wrote a Bible.



That was Henry the VIII.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> The Meat:
> 
> What are the differences again?



Spelling, punctuation, word order, and modern words.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 8, 2013)

I don't understand.. Is this Ubunutu, or Ubuntu... or Another Linux OS?



StripeRR HunteRR said:


> For a practical example, let's drop all religious overtone from this discussion for a second. Let's make it reality.
> 
> Say we live in Ubunutu. A fictional place with fictional laws.
> 
> ...


----------



## clayservant (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Ok, I can understand that this is the rock of your faith.
> 
> How do you wrap your head around the multiple Bibles, though?
> 
> ...



How do I wrap my head around the multiple Bibles ?
Good question, 
First you have to know that the word of God (scripture) was not written in english and most of us in the western part of the world know very little about the Hebrew or the Greek and Aramaic which the Bible or (scripture) was written in. we also have no clue about the customs of the people, so what you have to do in a case like this is Get as close to the Original Languages as you can, well the King james was written or translated in 1611  and that is why most people and my self go by it as a starting point, I use other translations also to help get as close as I can to the Original Languages, for instance if I read something in the word (Bible) that seems to go against what the rest of the bible says, I go to the root word and try to find the meaning, unlike english Hebrew and greek may have many meanings for that one word, that is why I use the Amp bible, The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says.
When you study the bible you will find it all agrees together with the old and new testament.  I hope this is not to hard to understand, I am much better teaching the Bible in person than I am writing it down, (my spellin stinks)..lol


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 8, 2013)

So you need ANOTHER translation of the bible... to fix the translation errors in the KJV... Got it.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Were you a Minister before the addiction or have you become one since?
> I appreciate your participation in here.



I was born again at the age of 15, I had a very bad childhood to say the least, but I studied the Bible for about 4 years then I started to hang with the wrong crowd and go hooked on drugs and booze,at the age of 22 I stopped the drugs at 35 but I still drank and could not get off of it, I would be sober for a few months and started with a bible school in correspondance,but I would fall back on the bottle again and again, I got my diploma from bible school after 4 years but I still drank, then my health went bad and I knew I had to stop, so  2 years and 77 days ago I told God that what ever time I had left I would serve him and Help others if he set me free from alcohol once and for all, well he did and I did.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> So you need ANOTHER translation of the bible... to fix the translation errors in the KJV... Got it.



well if we would just obey what we do know, then the rest will take care of itself, like on a need to know basis


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 8, 2013)

Obey what we do know (what we're told by our church elders - which church elders? Whichever..) and don't worry about the  parts that make it look wrong... and we're good to go. Don't ask questions, just follow orders like a good soldier.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 8, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> Hawgjawl if I may offer an opinion, free will has been around since creation. Which is one reason for The Debil, and Adam and Eves original sin, you always have a choice.





clayservant said:


> We have free will and God does speak to his children, and we can know Gods will for us....
> 
> 2 Peter 3:9
> King James Version (KJV)
> ...



So then I assume that neither of you believe that the reason God does not reveal Himself to man like He did throughout the Old Testament is because it would affect man's free will or ability to not believe in Him.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> That was Henry the VIII.



Yeah, my bad, I remembered correctly a little bit ago.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't understand.. Is this Ubunutu, or Ubuntu... or Another Linux OS?



It's Fictional Place X. Better?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Oct 8, 2013)

clayservant said:


> How do I wrap my head around the multiple Bibles ?
> Good question,
> First you have to know that the word of God (scripture) was not written in english and most of us in the western part of the world know very little about the Hebrew or the Greek and Aramaic which the Bible or (scripture) was written in. we also have no clue about the customs of the people, so what you have to do in a case like this is Get as close to the Original Languages as you can, well the King james was written or translated in 1611  and that is why most people and my self go by it as a starting point, I use other translations also to help get as close as I can to the Original Languages, for instance if I read something in the word (Bible) that seems to go against what the rest of the bible says, I go to the root word and try to find the meaning, unlike english Hebrew and greek may have many meanings for that one word, that is why I use the Amp bible, The Amplified Bible does this through the use of explanatory alternate readings and amplifications to assist the reader in understanding what Scripture really says.
> When you study the bible you will find it all agrees together with the old and new testament.  I hope this is not to hard to understand, I am much better teaching the Bible in person than I am writing it down, (my spellin stinks)..lol



No worries, it came across. Getting to the root of the word is good, but the notion that there are several interpretations of the same leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. 

It's not a direct example, but I'll use one of them that comes to mind. 

The British euphemism for a cigarette is interchangeable with the word for a bundle of sticks, as well as a homosexual. It's a 3 letter slur that rhymes with BAG, if anyone is wondering. 

If it were written with that word, again for argument sake, then how would we know if we were forbidden from smoking, bundling sticks, or being homosexuals, for certain? 

Therefore, with all of the looseness being played with the interpretations, how can anyone proclaim to have the "right" message and know the true path to salvation? 

As a corollary, with the true path being ascribed to Jesus, since he's not setting off burning bushes, or speaking directly to people at, say, a Braves game, isn't it amazingly arrogant to think that anyone could possibly have the correct answer given the muddied source material and disparate takes on the same readings?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It's not a direct example, but I'll use one of them that comes to mind.
> 
> The British euphemism for a cigarette is interchangeable with the word for a bundle of sticks, as well as a homosexual. It's a 3 letter slur that rhymes with BAG, if anyone is wondering.
> 
> If it were written with that word, again for argument sake, then how would we know if we were forbidden from smoking, bundling sticks, or being homosexuals, for certain?



A direct example would be better.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 8, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Obey what we do know (what we're told by our church elders - which church elders? Whichever..) and don't worry about the  parts that make it look wrong... and we're good to go. Don't ask questions, just follow orders like a good soldier.



noooooo, I read the bible and I do what it says for me to do, as God speaks to me. 
You are only held accountable for what you know that God wants you to do, not for what you do not know.

James 4:17
King James Version (KJV)

17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

James 4:17
New Living Translation (NLT)

17 Remember, it is sin to know what you ought to do and then not do it.

my brother may be able to do things that I cannot do, because God has not shown him it is wrong yet.

I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 8, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> No worries, it came across. Getting to the root of the word is good, but the notion that there are several interpretations of the same leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth.
> 
> It's not a direct example, but I'll use one of them that comes to mind.
> 
> ...



OK let me try and give you an example.

in Matthew 4:1
King James Version (KJV) it says 

4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

well this does not match the rest of the bible, this is what the bible says about temptation.

James 1:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Matthew 6:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Matthew 26:41
King James Version (KJV)

41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

now the other gospels do not say that the Spirit led Jesus to be tempted they say being tempted, a better translation would have been WHILE BEING TEMPTED .

it is hard to fit years of study into a few minutes on a forum.


----------



## fireman32 (Oct 8, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I just wanted to be clear (so I know what we are dealing with) that you are willing to overlook obvious facts and replace them with the non-facts of the Bible.



You are misinterpreting what I said.  I've not overlooked any facts, the Bible doesn't confirm or deny other people existing outside of Adam or where they may have been.   It starts with Adam to show the lineage of Jesus.  The simple fact is neither you nor I were around during creation.  God could have made cavemen and then said I'm tired of that let me do it this way now, we dont know.  All we have are science, which guesses at some things and the Bible.  How long did Creation take, how long is Gods day? While these things would be interesting to know, they are not crucial to our relationship with Christ.


----------



## fireman32 (Oct 8, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So then I assume that neither of you believe that the reason God does not reveal Himself to man like He did throughout the Old Testament is because it would affect man's free will or ability to not believe in Him.



He stopped revealing himself like he did in the Old Testament, because of Christ.  Jesus raised the bar for Christians, in the OT you weren't suppose to kill anyone, Jesus says to think about murder is a sin.  And of course after Jesus was crucified, God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in us.  God wants you to voluntarily follow him, without free will this wouldn't be possible.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 9, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> It's Fictional Place X. Better?



I was just joshin, man...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 9, 2013)

clayservant said:


> noooooo, I read the bible and I do what it says for me to do, as God speaks to me.
> You are only held accountable for what you know that God wants you to do, not for what you do not know.



I personally, don't know that any god wants me to do anything... So I'm good.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So then I assume that neither of you believe that the reason God does not reveal Himself to man like He did throughout the Old Testament is because it would affect man's free will or ability to not believe in Him.



A scholar such as yourself should have known better:



> *Romans 1:20* For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.



And, a little OT reinforcement, for fun:



> *Psalms 19:1 *The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. 2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge


----------



## TripleXBullies (Oct 9, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> He stopped revealing himself like he did in the Old Testament, because of Christ.  Jesus raised the bar for Christians, in the OT you weren't suppose to kill anyone, Jesus says to think about murder is a sin.  And of course after Jesus was crucified, God sent the Holy Spirit to dwell in us.  God wants you to voluntarily follow him, without free will this wouldn't be possible.



Plenty of people would have no problem doing their own thing even if the creator of the world demonstrated their power in a completely convincing way.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> You are misinterpreting what I said.  I've not overlooked any facts, the Bible doesn't confirm or deny other people existing outside of Adam or where they may have been.   It starts with Adam to show the lineage of Jesus.  The simple fact is neither you nor I were around during creation.  God could have made cavemen and then said I'm tired of that let me do it this way now, we dont know.  All we have are science, which guesses at some things and the Bible.  How long did Creation take, how long is Gods day? While these things would be interesting to know, they are not crucial to our relationship with Christ.



The Bible is confined to a very small part of the world and written about by people that thought that part of the world was the whole world. 

The Bible does in fact tell us that Adam was the first man and Eve was the first woman. Are you telling us that there may have been earlier men and women but God changed his mind and started over with Adam and Eve?

If you have the time could you break down the lineage  from Adam to Jesus?

If Science guesses at some things, how accurate do you consider the Bible to be?

If a day is not a day and a week is not a week, how are we expected to accurately figure out what is written in the rest of the Bible if terms as we understand them mean different things to a God? Is that God incapable of accurately conveying his message to us? If we cannot understand exactly what this God's code really means in the first book of the Bible, how do you expect to understand the messages all the way through to the last book?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

> Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.



fireman32, according to this passage above, there should be no unknowns about what is written about God in the Bible. Are you sure you are not mistaken about a few things like "How long creation took and How long is God's day"(just to name a few of thousands of confusing things in the Bible)?

If we can agree that things are Meant exactly as written in the Bible and things Are as exactly written in the Bible,(according to scripture and backed up by scripture above), then maybe we can get down to confirming or denying the accuracy of it all.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> fireman32, according to this passage above, there should be no unknowns about what is written about God in the Bible. Are you sure you are not mistaken about a few things like "How long creation took and How long is God's day"(just to name a few of thousands of confusing things in the Bible)?



Bullet, I think you are taking the verse a bit farther than what is said:



> *Romans 1:20* For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.



The scripture is not discussing the fine details of the Bible, just God.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Bullet, I think you are taking the verse a bit farther than what is said:
> 
> 
> 
> The scripture is not discussing the fine details of the Bible, just God.



I am not so sure about that JB. What other than God's qualities and Divine nature was used to convey what is written in the Bible? Is that verse not talking about the creation and works of God standing alone for his evidence? Is there anything God has done, and I think including HIS work as we know as the Bible,  that should leave us with excuse? Or Should we take all of his qualities, power and divine nature without excuse as it (according to Romans) stands on it's own and does not need our guesses or interpretations?


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> I am not so sure about that JB. What other than God's qualities and Divine nature was used to convey what is written in the Bible? Is that verse not talking about the creation and works of God standing alone for his evidence? Is there anything God has done, and I think including HIS work as we know as the Bible,  that should leave us with excuse? Or Should we take all of his qualities, power and divine nature without excuse as it (according to Romans) stands on it's own and does not need our guesses or interpretations?



I do understand that my response is evidence of your premise, but, I think the general idea of that verse is that "God exists, and it is evident."  

I can see where you are going by taking that to all works, but I think it is more in line with his nature/existence, not works.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

Do we include or exclude the Bible and why?
Without what is written in the Bible how would we know anything about ---God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--? How would we know what God to attribute those things to?
They either stand together, and we can discuss them to see if it all holds up, OR we can separate them...which really is a hit to the works.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I do understand that my response is evidence of your premise, but, I think the general idea of that verse is that "God exists, and it is evident."
> 
> I can see where you are going by taking that to all works, but I think it is more in line with his nature/existence, not works.



And this is why I am always trying to sort out and establish just what each individual will cherry pick, overlook, justify and pinpoint in order for it all to make sense in their own mind. I have yet to see anything universal.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Do we include or exclude the Bible and why?
> Without what is written in the Bible how would we know anything about ---God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--? How would we know what God to attribute those things to?



As long as men have had cognitive abilities, they have attributed creation to God.



bullethead said:


> They either stand together, and we can discuss them to see if it all holds up, OR we can separate them...which really is a hit to the works.



I see it as 2 seperate issues:

A. Does God exist?
B. Which form?

A is what you get from nature, B is what you get from the Bible.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And this is why I am always trying to sort out and establish just what each individual will cherry pick, overlook, justify and pinpoint in order for it all to make sense in their own mind. I have yet to see anything universal.



This has got to be one of the favorite terms used in the AAA forum.  It probably deserves its own thread (definition, examples, etc.)


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> This has got to be one of the favorite terms used in the AAA forum.  It probably deserves its own thread (definition, examples, etc.)



I certainly hope you don't need definition.

Plenty of examples in this forum so, I won't bore you with those.
http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/commentaries/item/8673-cherry-picking-the-bible

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2013/07/27/jim-wallis-cherry-picking-of-the-bible-was-evident-on-last-nights-real-time-with-bill-maher/

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/10/25/coogan.bible.family.values/index.html

http://hausdorffbb.blogspot.com/2013/04/i-can-cherry-pick-your-bible-but-you.html


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> How long did Creation take, how long is Gods day?



According to the timeline in the Bible, the earth and all of its inhabitants are just over 6000 years old.  It is sometimes argued by Christians who acknowledge that the earth is much older than 6000 years that the word “day” in the book of Genesis probably meant a much longer period of time than it does today, and the word “day” could have meant one billion years.   

Since the book of Genesis was written by Moses who also authored the next four books of the Old Testament, that contention could be disputed by the argument that a single author would use the same terminology throughout all scripture written by that one author.  If in Genesis chapter 1, Moses actually meant one billion years when he stated the evening and the morning were the first day, and the evening and the morning were the second day and so on, then it is reasonable to believe that the word “day” would also mean one billion years every time Moses used the exact same word in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.  

The first time we see the word “day” in scripture is Genesis 1:5 which states that after God divided the light from the darkness, God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night, and the evening and the morning were the first day.  It seems clear in this scripture that the period of time in which the sun was shining was called day and the period of time of darkness in the cycle was called night.  The same scripture calls this period of time which includes one evening and one morning, a day.  

In Genesis 1:14 God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.  Genesis chapter 8 speaks of particular days of a month.  This sounds like the same time measurements we use today.  

In Genesis 3:17 when God cursed Adam for eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, God said cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.  “All the days of thy life” was the phrase used by God and written by Moses to delineate the rest of Adam’s life, and subsequently the life-span of all of Adam’s descendants.  “All the days of your life” is a common expression with a day signifying one revolution of the earth, from light to darkness back to light.  The phrase “all the days of thy life” clearly indicates that an individual’s life-span consists of multiple days.  If a day was one billion years and Adam’s life consisted of multiple days, just how many billions of years did Adam live?  Genesis 5:5 states all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.  

Moses continued to use the word “day” in scripture in a manner consistent with the same period of time that we currently call a day.  In Genesis 17:12 Moses wrote that God instructed Abram to circumcise every male child when he is eight days old.  An eight billion year old male is not really considered to be a child.  

A more humorous example is found in Genesis 29:20 which states that Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.  It seems contradictory to the concept being portrayed to interpret this statement as Jacob’s love for Rachel made seven years fly by as if it were only a few billion years.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> According to the timeline in the Bible, the earth and all of its inhabitants are just over 6000 years old.



Did you determine that yourself, or is that just what you have always heard?  Just curious.......



HawgJawl said:


> If in Genesis chapter 1, Moses actually meant one billion years when he stated the evening and the morning were the first day, and the evening and the morning were the second day and so on, then it is reasonable to believe that the word “day” would also mean one billion years every time Moses used the exact same word in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.



Depends on what he was trying to communicate.

Also, the authorship of Genesis is not settled. 



HawgJawl said:


> A more humorous example is found in Genesis 29:20 which states that Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.  It seems contradictory to the concept being portrayed to interpret this statement as Jacob’s love for Rachel made seven years fly by as if it were only a few billion years.



I think you are being too literal here.  Define "yonder."  That is a word that can have an extremely varied geographic definition.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> I certainly hope you don't need definition.
> 
> Plenty of examples in this forum so, I won't bore you with those.
> http://www.abpnews.com/opinion/commentaries/item/8673-cherry-picking-the-bible
> ...




"Cherry picking" is a in intellectually lazy term.  It's a "thought stopper" (see Jonah Goldberg's _The Tyranny of Cliches_ for more details.)  It's been become popular in the culture because of the gay marriage debate, and it's not surprising that each one of your links talks about gay marriage.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Did you determine that yourself, or is that just what you have always heard?  Just curious.......



The number of years elapsed from God’s creation of Adam to the birth of Jesus can be easily calculated with simple math.  Scripture provides the age of each individual in the chain at the time the next individual was born.  Although the Jewish calendar places the creation of the earth at 3761 BC and another popular Jewish calculation is 3924 BC, the timeline in the King James Bible indicates the year would have been 4004 BC when God created the earth and Adam.  Adam lived 930 years.  When Adam was 130 years old his son Seth was born, which would have been 3874 BC.  Seth lived 912 years.  When Seth was 105 years old his son Enosh was born, which would have been 3769 BC.  Enosh lived 905 years.  When Enosh was 90 years old his son Cainaan was born, which would have been 3679 BC.  Cainaan lived 910 years.  When Cainaan was 70 years old his son Mahalalel was born, which would have been 3609 BC.  Mahalalel lived 895 years.  When Mahalalel was 65 years old his son Jared was born, which would have been 3544 BC.  Jared lived 962 years.  When Jared was 162 years old his son Enoch was born, which would have been 3382 BC.  Enoch lived 365 years.  When Enoch was 65 years old his son Methuselah was born, which would have been 3317 BC.  Methuselah lived 969 years.  When Methuselah was 187 years old his son Lamech was born, which would have been 3130 BC.  Lamech lived 777 years.  When Lamech was 182 years old his son Noah was born, which would have been 2948 BC.  Noah lived 950 years.  When Noah was 502 years old his son Shem was born, which would have been 2446 BC.  Shem lived 600 years.  The great flood occurred 98 years later, which would have been 2348 BC.  Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old his son Arphaxad was born, which would have been 2346 BC.  Arphaxad lived 438 years.  When Arphaxad was 35 years old his son Shelah was born, which would have been 2311 BC.  Shelah lived 433 years.  When Shelah was 30 years old his son Eber was born, which would have been 2281 BC.  Eber lived 464 years.  When Eber was 34 years old his son Peleg was born, which would have been 2247 BC.  Peleg lived 239 years.  When Peleg was 30 years old his son Reu was born, which would have been 2217 BC.  Reu lived 239 years.  This was around the time of the tower of Babel.  When Reu was 32 years old his son Serug was born, which would have been 2185 BC.  Serug lived 230 years.  When Serug was 30 years old his son Nahor was born, which would have been 2155 BC.  Nahor lived 148 years.  When Nahor was 29 years old his son Terah was born, which would have been 2126 BC.  Terah lived 205 years.  When Terah was 130 years old his son Abram was born, which would have been 1996 BC.  Abram lived 175 years.  When Abram was 99 years old, God changed his name to Abraham.  When Abraham was 100 years old his son Isaac was born, which would have been 1896 BC.  Isaac lived 180 years.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in 1887 BC.  When Isaac was 60 years old his twin sons Jacob and Esau were born, which would have been 1836 BC.  Jacob lived 147 years.  In 1739 BC, God changed Jacob’s name to Israel.  When Israel was 87 years old his son Levi was born, which would have been 1749 BC.  When Israel was 88 years old his son Judah was born, which would have been 1748 BC.  When Israel was 91 years old his son Joseph was born, which would have been 1745 BC.  In 1728 BC, Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery and he was sent to Egypt.  When Jacob’s son Levi was 30 years old his son Kohath was born, which would have been 1719.  Kohath lived 133 years.  By 1715 BC, Joseph had risen to Governor of Egypt.  When Kohath was 51 years old his son Amram was born, which would have been 1668 BC.  Amram lived 137 years.  Just before Amram died, his son Moses was born, which would have been 1531 BC.  Moses lived 120 years.  In 1451 BC, Moses saw God in the burning bush, led the Israelites out of Egypt, and received the Ten Commandments.  In 1411 BC, Moses died and Joshua became the leader of the children of Israel.  In 1404 BC, Joshua delivered the children of Israel to the Promised Land and Joshua died at 110 years of age.  The children of Israel began to worship other Gods so the Lord allowed them to be overtaken by King Cushan-Rishathaim of Mesopotamia.  After eight years, in 1396 BC, Othniel defeated the Mesopotamians and became the Judge over the children of Israel.  In 1356 BC, Othniel died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Eglon of Moab.  After eighteen years, in 1338 BC, Ehud killed King Eglon and defeated the Moabites.  In 1258 BC, Ehud died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Jabin of Canaan.  In 1238 BC, the prophetess Deborah along with Barak and Jael defeated King Jabin and his army.  Forty years later, in 1198 BC, the Israelites were overtaken by Midian.  Seven years later, in 1191 BC, Gidean along with only three hundred men, defeated the Midianites.  Forty years later, in 1151 BC, Gideon died and Abimelech was made King for three years.  In 1148 BC, Tola became the Judge over the Israelites.  In 1128 BC, Jair became the Judge over the Israelites.  After twenty-two years, in 1106 BC, Jair died and the Israelites were overtaken by the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1088 BC, the Israelites rose out from under the suppression of the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1075 BC, the Israelites were again overtaken by the Philistines.  During the next thirty years, Samson rose to power and Samuel anointed Saul as King of Israel.  In 1031 BC, the Israelites lost the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines during a battle.  In 1030 BC, David killed Goliath and Samuel defeated the Philistines.  In 1011 BC, Samuel died, and the following year King Saul and his sons died in battle against the Philistines.  David became King and brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem.  In 970 BC, King David died and his son Solomon became King of Israel.  In 930 BC, King Solomon died and his son Rehoboam became King.  Israel split and King Rehoboam ruled over Judah while King Jeroboam I ruled over the other ten tribes of Israel.  For the next three hundred years, Judah and Israel had numerous kings.  In 605 BC, Nebuchadnezzar became King of Babylon and in 588 BC he built a siege wall around Jerusalem.  Haman plotted to annihilate all the Jews but was overpowered and lost.  In 469 BC, Socrates was born.  In 427 BC, Plato was born.  In 385 BC, Aristotle was born.  In 356 BC, Alexander the Great was born.  In 69 BC, Cleopatra was born.  In 44 BC, Julius Caesar was assassinated and Augustus became Caesar of Rome.  In 30 BC, Mark Anthony committed suicide by falling on his own sword and Cleopatra committed suicide by having an Egyptian cobra secretly delivered to her.  In 4 BC, Augustus Caesar issued the decree that everyone in Israel should be registered.  Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem to be registered and Jesus was born.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I think you are being too literal here.  Define "yonder."  That is a word that can have an extremely varied geographic definition.



Definition variances due to geographical or cultural differences would not matter if all the material was written by the same author.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "Cherry picking" is a in intellectually lazy term.  It's a "thought stopper" (see Jonah Goldberg's _The Tyranny of Cliches_ for more details.)  It's been become popular in the culture because of the gay marriage debate, and it's not surprising that each one of your links talks about gay marriage.



You are of course entitled to your opinion. You asked for examples, and of course you attack the source, the terms, and bring up gay marriage. It is true, whether admitted or not, that folks cherry pick the bible. It was used to justify slavery, now parts are ignored that would get folks landed in prison and the list goes on. Like I tell my wife, don't ask the question if you may not like the answer. 
Perhaps your questions were rhetorical and I missed it, being intellectually lazy and all.
Wait, is 'thought stopper' an intellectually lazy term?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> It is true, whether admitted or not, that folks cherry pick the bible.



"Gun nuts" like you do the same thing.  The internet says so!


NRA Statistics are lies, distortion & cherry-picking that can not be relied on to make sensible judgements about American Gun Crime and Violence. The NRA is a Lobbying Organizations and they adjust facts to their agenda.

http://guncontrolnowusa.wordpress.c...e-completely-worthless-consider-them-as-lies/


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> You asked for examples, and of course you attack the source, the terms, and bring up gay marriage.



_The links you posted_ brought up gay marriage.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Definition variances due to geographical or cultural differences would not matter if all the material was written by the same author.



I use the word yonder in multiple contexts.

Interestingly, I also have multiple uses for the word "day."

My guess is that you do as well.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The number of years elapsed from God’s creation of Adam to the birth of Jesus can be easily calculated with simple math.  Scripture provides the age of each individual in the chain at the time the next individual was born.  Although the Jewish calendar places the creation of the earth at 3761 BC and another popular Jewish calculation is 3924 BC, the timeline in the King James Bible indicates the year would have been 4004 BC when God created the earth and Adam.  Adam lived 930 years.  When Adam was 130 years old his son Seth was born, which would have been 3874 BC.  Seth lived 912 years.  When Seth was 105 years old his son Enosh was born, which would have been 3769 BC.  Enosh lived 905 years.  When Enosh was 90 years old his son Cainaan was born, which would have been 3679 BC.  Cainaan lived 910 years.  When Cainaan was 70 years old his son Mahalalel was born, which would have been 3609 BC.  Mahalalel lived 895 years.  When Mahalalel was 65 years old his son Jared was born, which would have been 3544 BC.  Jared lived 962 years.  When Jared was 162 years old his son Enoch was born, which would have been 3382 BC.  Enoch lived 365 years.  When Enoch was 65 years old his son Methuselah was born, which would have been 3317 BC.  Methuselah lived 969 years.  When Methuselah was 187 years old his son Lamech was born, which would have been 3130 BC.  Lamech lived 777 years.  When Lamech was 182 years old his son Noah was born, which would have been 2948 BC.  Noah lived 950 years.  When Noah was 502 years old his son Shem was born, which would have been 2446 BC.  Shem lived 600 years.  The great flood occurred 98 years later, which would have been 2348 BC.  Two years after the flood, when Shem was 100 years old his son Arphaxad was born, which would have been 2346 BC.  Arphaxad lived 438 years.  When Arphaxad was 35 years old his son Shelah was born, which would have been 2311 BC.  Shelah lived 433 years.  When Shelah was 30 years old his son Eber was born, which would have been 2281 BC.  Eber lived 464 years.  When Eber was 34 years old his son Peleg was born, which would have been 2247 BC.  Peleg lived 239 years.  When Peleg was 30 years old his son Reu was born, which would have been 2217 BC.  Reu lived 239 years.  This was around the time of the tower of Babel.  When Reu was 32 years old his son Serug was born, which would have been 2185 BC.  Serug lived 230 years.  When Serug was 30 years old his son Nahor was born, which would have been 2155 BC.  Nahor lived 148 years.  When Nahor was 29 years old his son Terah was born, which would have been 2126 BC.  Terah lived 205 years.  When Terah was 130 years old his son Abram was born, which would have been 1996 BC.  Abram lived 175 years.  When Abram was 99 years old, God changed his name to Abraham.  When Abraham was 100 years old his son Isaac was born, which would have been 1896 BC.  Isaac lived 180 years.  God destroyed the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah in 1887 BC.  When Isaac was 60 years old his twin sons Jacob and Esau were born, which would have been 1836 BC.  Jacob lived 147 years.  In 1739 BC, God changed Jacob’s name to Israel.  When Israel was 87 years old his son Levi was born, which would have been 1749 BC.  When Israel was 88 years old his son Judah was born, which would have been 1748 BC.  When Israel was 91 years old his son Joseph was born, which would have been 1745 BC.  In 1728 BC, Joseph’s brothers sold him into slavery and he was sent to Egypt.  When Jacob’s son Levi was 30 years old his son Kohath was born, which would have been 1719.  Kohath lived 133 years.  By 1715 BC, Joseph had risen to Governor of Egypt.  When Kohath was 51 years old his son Amram was born, which would have been 1668 BC.  Amram lived 137 years.  Just before Amram died, his son Moses was born, which would have been 1531 BC.  Moses lived 120 years.  In 1451 BC, Moses saw God in the burning bush, led the Israelites out of Egypt, and received the Ten Commandments.  In 1411 BC, Moses died and Joshua became the leader of the children of Israel.  In 1404 BC, Joshua delivered the children of Israel to the Promised Land and Joshua died at 110 years of age.  The children of Israel began to worship other Gods so the Lord allowed them to be overtaken by King Cushan-Rishathaim of Mesopotamia.  After eight years, in 1396 BC, Othniel defeated the Mesopotamians and became the Judge over the children of Israel.  In 1356 BC, Othniel died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Eglon of Moab.  After eighteen years, in 1338 BC, Ehud killed King Eglon and defeated the Moabites.  In 1258 BC, Ehud died and the Israelites were overtaken by King Jabin of Canaan.  In 1238 BC, the prophetess Deborah along with Barak and Jael defeated King Jabin and his army.  Forty years later, in 1198 BC, the Israelites were overtaken by Midian.  Seven years later, in 1191 BC, Gidean along with only three hundred men, defeated the Midianites.  Forty years later, in 1151 BC, Gideon died and Abimelech was made King for three years.  In 1148 BC, Tola became the Judge over the Israelites.  In 1128 BC, Jair became the Judge over the Israelites.  After twenty-two years, in 1106 BC, Jair died and the Israelites were overtaken by the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1088 BC, the Israelites rose out from under the suppression of the Philistines and Ammonites.  In 1075 BC, the Israelites were again overtaken by the Philistines.  During the next thirty years, Samson rose to power and Samuel anointed Saul as King of Israel.  In 1031 BC, the Israelites lost the Ark of the Covenant to the Philistines during a battle.  In 1030 BC, David killed Goliath and Samuel defeated the Philistines.  In 1011 BC, Samuel died, and the following year King Saul and his sons died in battle against the Philistines.  David became King and brought the Ark of the Covenant to Jerusalem.  In 970 BC, King David died and his son Solomon became King of Israel.  In 930 BC, King Solomon died and his son Rehoboam became King.  Israel split and King Rehoboam ruled over Judah while King Jeroboam I ruled over the other ten tribes of Israel.  For the next three hundred years, Judah and Israel had numerous kings.  In 605 BC, Nebuchadnezzar became King of Babylon and in 588 BC he built a siege wall around Jerusalem.  Haman plotted to annihilate all the Jews but was overpowered and lost.  In 469 BC, Socrates was born.  In 427 BC, Plato was born.  In 385 BC, Aristotle was born.  In 356 BC, Alexander the Great was born.  In 69 BC, Cleopatra was born.  In 44 BC, Julius Caesar was assassinated and Augustus became Caesar of Rome.  In 30 BC, Mark Anthony committed suicide by falling on his own sword and Cleopatra committed suicide by having an Egyptian cobra secretly delivered to her.  In 4 BC, Augustus Caesar issued the decree that everyone in Israel should be registered.  Joseph and Mary traveled to Bethlehem to be registered and Jesus was born.



Did you actually read that before you cut and pasted it?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I use the word yonder in multiple contexts.
> 
> Interestingly, I also have multiple uses for the word "day."
> 
> My guess is that you do as well.



I agree.  That's why I included the context in which it was written in Genesis chapter 1.



HawgJawl said:


> The first time we see the word “day” in scripture is Genesis 1:5 which states that after God divided the light from the darkness, God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night, and the evening and the morning were the first day.  It seems clear in this scripture that the period of time in which the sun was shining was called day and the period of time of darkness in the cycle was called night.  The same scripture calls this period of time which includes one evening and one morning, a day.
> 
> In Genesis 1:14 God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.  Genesis chapter 8 speaks of particular days of a month.  This sounds like the same time measurements we use today.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Did you actually read that before you cut and pasted it?



I cut and pasted it from my own records which I write while I study and research the Bible.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "Gun nuts" like you do the same thing.  The internet says so!



While I am a gun nut...and proud of it, I don't cherry pick stats to prove a point. Also, I don't deny the NRA may cherry pick. 

Wait, I was suppose to attack the source. Who cares what the Gun Control Now group says. They are a bunch of idiot gun-o-phobes. 





Under this picture is written...A man on a rifle range. 
Yea, they seem like a bright group of folks.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> _The links you posted_ brought up gay marriage.



Still not sure the relevance of that. Did it(the links) provide evidence of "cherry picking"? Does the fact that gay marriage was mentioned make the evidence less factual or just less appealing?


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> Wait, I was suppose to attack the source.



No, you were supposed to realize that the source has an agenda.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> Still not sure the relevance of that. Did it(the links) provide evidence of "cherry picking"?



Yes.  Did you read them?




660griz said:


> Does the fact that gay marriage was mentioned make the evidence less factual or just less appealing?



There are no facts.  There is an agenda.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, you were supposed to realize that the source has an agenda.



Everybody has an agenda...even you. 

Here is one from a christian. He does mention same sex marriage and he probably has an agenda. Could it be an acceptable agenda for you?
http://www.davidlimbaugh.com/mt/archives/2013/03/column_its_not.html

Cherry picking straight forward question coming up. I definitely do not have a gay marriage agenda. Could care less about it. Just use this as an example only. 

Why do christians quote lines from Leviticus to support their stance on gay marriage, for instance, when there are lines in Deuteronomy that call for wives that aren't virgins upon marriage to be stoned to death?

Fact is that christians use the bible to support their stance on gay marriages. 
Fact is the bible calls for stoning of non-virgins. This may be interpreted wrong because in those days, stoning was forcing them to get really really high.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> There are no facts.  There is an agenda.



So, we are down to just writings from the american society for science and engineering? 
Oh wait, I am sure they have an agenda too. Oh well, no facts left in the world.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I cut and pasted it from my own records which I write while I study and research the Bible.



I put a few of the sentences on google and kept going to scribd.com

In college I took a class taught by a 7 day creationist who put the Earth's age at @ 4500 yrs.  The thing with the timelines is that everybody comes up with a different #.  

Curious as to your interest in the Bible?  I believe you are agnostic, judging from conversations we had on here about 2 years ago.......what is your current purpose behind such efforts?


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> This may be interpreted wrong because in those days, stoning was forcing them to get really really high.






.....but, to the point of the post, there is an entire half of the Bible Christians will adhere to which would pretty much elliminate the practice of stoning somebody for sins.  Has something to do with grace.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree.  That's why I included the context in which it was written in Genesis chapter 1.



Yes....I am aware.....it is the greek word "yom," which is generally referring to a 24 hour period.

I use the word day, which generally refers to a 24 hour period.  But, sometimes, I use the word "day" to refer to my youth.  Sometimes, I use it to refer to an era.  Sometimes I use it to refer to the future (which day....).

The English word "day" refers to a 24 hour period, but not always.

Either way, people use this point to fit their perspective, instead of forming a perspective based on the work and evidence at hand.  For instance, and atheist would say "it is a literal 24 x 6 timeframe" in an effort to prove the Bible wrong.  An absolutist would say "it is a literal 24 x 6 timeframe" in an effort to prove that each word is to be taken literally.  I tend to take it as a relation of the story of creation in terms which made sense to those who heard it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> Why do christians quote lines from Leviticus to support their stance on gay marriage, for instance, when there are lines in Deuteronomy that call for wives that aren't virgins upon marriage to be stoned to death.



So there's a good chance I can walk into my local synagogue and see a stoning?

Cool!


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Curious as to your interest in the Bible?  I believe you are agnostic, judging from conversations we had on here about 2 years ago.......what is your current purpose behind such efforts?



I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church.  At 13, I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, was baptized, and joined the church.  From around 16 to my early 20's, I felt that I was being called to be a pastor and was seriously considering a life in the ministry.

If my current beliefs have to be classified, lets just call me a Christian who has lost his faith.

I've studied the Bible and many other resources the majority of my life, and continue to do so today.  I enjoy debating, whether I approach the debate from a Christian standpoint or Agnostic.  I sometimes learn more by approaching a debate from the opposite of the opinion I actually hold, so just because I present a certain standpoint, doesn't mean I personally believe that.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I've studied the Bible and many other resources the majority of my life, and continue to do so today.  I enjoy debating, whether I approach the debate from a Christian standpoint or Agnostic.  I sometimes learn more by approaching a debate from the opposite of the opinion I actually hold, so just because I present a certain standpoint, doesn't mean I personally believe that.



Gotcha.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yes....I am aware.....it is the greek word "yom," which is generally referring to a 24 hour period.
> 
> I use the word day, which generally refers to a 24 hour period.  But, sometimes, I use the word "day" to refer to my youth.  Sometimes, I use it to refer to an era.  Sometimes I use it to refer to the future (which day....).
> 
> ...



And that is why I included that God called the light day and the darkness night and the evening and the morning were the first day.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> Cherry picking straight forward question coming up. I definitely do not have a gay marriage agenda. Could care less about it. Just use this as an example only.
> 
> Why do christians quote lines from Leviticus to support their stance on gay marriage, for instance, when there are lines in Deuteronomy that call for wives that aren't virgins upon marriage to be stoned to death?
> 
> ...



I'd like to point out homosexuality is wrong in the NT as well. 
I would wager you could not find a verse that I could not support in the bible. But of course I would use the bible to support it so you wouldn't approve.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> And that is why I included that God called the light day and the darkness night and the evening and the morning were the first day.



Yes.  But, the sun wasn't created for a few "days" later.....which would have limited the 24 hour time frame a bit.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yes.  But, the sun wasn't created for a few "days" later.....which would have limited the 24 hour time frame a bit.



But the sun WAS created before Adam, so that would not affect the lineage timeline.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> But the sun WAS created before Adam, so that would not affect the lineage timeline.



My thoughts on the Genesis story are not relevant to the lineage timeline, they are relevant to the first several days which are vague.  I have more on this, but I don't want to get hammered for it by my own team......that junk hurts my feelings


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "Gun nuts" like you do the same thing.  The internet says so!
> 
> 
> NRA Statistics are lies, distortion & cherry-picking that can not be relied on to make sensible judgements about American Gun Crime and Violence. The NRA is a Lobbying Organizations and they adjust facts to their agenda.
> ...



Point is, I do it, you do it, we do it, everyone cherry picks. I am not pointing it out that it is a one side vs another, I just would like someone to actually admit that they do it. It is clear when it is done and who is doing it, we all know that.
I think when dealing with the Bible, where one thing contradicts the other, and especially because of the nature of the discussion in this forum, cherry picking is alive and well.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> And this is why I am always trying to sort out and establish just what each individual will cherry pick, overlook, justify and pinpoint in order for it all to make sense in their own mind. I have yet to see anything universal.



Centerpin, Remove the words in red if you would like, it does not change the statement I made. I cannot say as fact that no two people on the planet have the exact same feelings about every verse in the Bible because there is really no way to test everyone.....but I would be comfortable making that statement based off of the conversations in here, a few floors above, and in other dealings I have had.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> I'd like to point out homosexuality is wrong in the NT as well.
> I would wager you could not find a verse that I could not support in the bible. But of course I would use the bible to support it so you wouldn't approve.



So, you agree gays should be put to death?
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."


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## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> My thoughts on the Genesis story are not relevant to the lineage timeline, they are relevant to the first several days which are vague.  I have more on this, but I don't want to get hammered for it by my own team......that junk hurts my feelings



I am glad you at least post "My thoughts are...." There are too many quick to point out exactly what God means in one verse when it fits their agenda and in the next breath tell us "well God MIGHT not have meant this or that" when painted into a corner.

My thoughts are: If a day is not a day in the terms meant for followers to understand universally then people are going to use whatever definition that makes them feel happy about it. If the verses in the Bible are not precise and universal then it all is one big individual guess at trying to understand a God that is(if real) beyond our best intelligence or a god that is a total fabrication.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Centerpin, Remove the words in red if you would like, it does not change the statement I made. I cannot say as fact that no two people on the planet have the exact same feelings about every verse in the Bible because there is really no way to test everyone.....but I would be comfortable making that statement based off of the conversations in here, a few floors above, and in other dealings I have had.



OK, but "cherry picking" implies Christians pick and choose scripture on a whim ("buffet-style Bible believers" according to one of 660griz's links.)  It ignores the basic division of the Bible (OT/NT), not to mention types of literature, context, etc.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> So, you agree gays should be put to death?
> "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."



Dang, I _gotta_ convert to Judaism:  stonin' non-virgins and killin' gays.

My cup runneth over!


----------



## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, but "cherry picking" implies Christians pick and choose scripture on a whim ("buffet-style Bible believers" according to one of 660griz's links.)  It ignores the basic division of the Bible (OT/NT), not to mention types of literature, context, etc.



I don't think it implies 'on a whim'. I think it implies, "to select the best or most desirable".


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> OK, but "cherry picking" implies Christians pick and choose scripture on a whim ("buffet-style Bible believers" according to one of 660griz's links.)  It ignores the basic division of the Bible (OT/NT), not to mention types of literature, context, etc.



Well since we are being all kinds of honest today, in here, in this forum, in the two other forums that deal with religion and in the real world, some Christians DO pick and choose scripture on a whim. Some Christians DO pick and choose scripture that fits a certain point or agenda. There are many examples of it, but no better examples of it than what goes on in here on a daily basis.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> I don't think it implies 'on a whim'. I think it implies, "to select the best or most desirable".





bullethead said:


> Well since we are being all kinds of honest today, in here, in this forum, in the two other forums that deal with religion and in the real world, some Christians DO pick and choose scripture on a whim. Some Christians DO pick and choose scripture that fits a certain point or agenda. There are many examples of it, but no better examples of it than what goes on in here on a daily basis.



I don't doubt that, but that doesn't mean everybody does it, and it doesn't mean they're right to do it.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

660griz said:


> I don't think it implies 'on a whim'. I think it implies, "to select the best or most desirable".



"to select the best or most desirable" that backs up the point they are trying to make. Often when the point is disputed then the argument is made that it is taken out of context and that the entire text must be taken into account.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> "to select the best or most desirable" that backs up the point they are trying to make. Often when the point is disputed then the argument is made that it is taken out of context and that the entire text must be taken into account.




_A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed._ 


Gun control proponents say that the 2A is crystal clear:  since we have a standing army, a militia is no longer needed;  therefore, Americans have no right to keep and bear arms.  Is that belief supported by the context?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't doubt that, but that doesn't mean everybody does it, and it doesn't mean they're right to do it.



But that is not what we are talking about, we are addressing the one's in here that do it and the fact that more often than not In Here, it is done. Right or wrong it seems to be the norm in here and that is why we call it out when we see it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 9, 2013)

bullethead said:


> But that is not what we are talking about, we are addressing the one's in here that do it and the fact that more often than not In Here, it is done. Right or wrong it seems to be the norm in here and that is why we call it out when we see it.



I'm just pointing out that appealing to "context" is valid.


----------



## bullethead (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> _A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed._
> 
> 
> Gun control proponents say that the 2A is crystal clear:  since we have a standing army, a militia is no longer needed;  therefore, Americans have no right to keep and bear arms.  Is that belief supported by the context?



I am not sure if that is a subject of the AAA forum but I will answer you with my best answer.

Let "them", whoever that may be, come and try to take my guns. As long as the 2nd amendment stays as is, I am well within my rights to defend myself and the 2nd amendment...solely because of the 2nd amendment ...against anyone that tries to act against it.

Here is the best email I have ever received about gun ownership. Feel free to pass it on or the Mods can put it in the proper forum or they can delete it. I am just taking the opportunity that CPF gave me to post it here and now.

If They Come for Your Guns, Do You Have a Responsibility to Fight?
This man has put down on paper what many people are thinking, but are too cautious to express openly.  
I hope it never comes to what he is advocating, but I can certainly see where the possibility exists.
God help us all if it ever does happen.

PS Here is what Wikipedia has to say about the author:

Dean Garrison (born 1955) is a contemporary American author and crime fiction novelist. He was born in Michigan , grew up in the Indiana , Illinois , and Texas , and received his B.A. degree from Ferris State University in Big Rapids, Michigan . Garrison is a Crime Scene Technician in West Michigan . His research in the fields of crime scene investigation and Shooting Reconstruction are widely published in forensic journals under the name "D.H. Garrison, Jr."

Subject: If They Come for Your Guns, Do You Have a Responsibility to Fight?
Posted on January 3, 2013 by Dean Garrison 
I feel a tremendous responsibility to write this article though I am a little apprehensive. Thinking about the possibility of rising up against our own government is a frightening thing for many of us. I am not Johnny Rambo and I will be the first to admit that I do not want to die. The reason I feel compelled to write this, however, is simply because I don¡¦t think the average American is equipped with the facts. I feel that a lot of American citizens feel like they have no choice but to surrender their guns if the government comes for them. I blame traditional media sources for this mass brainwash and I carry the responsibility of all small independent bloggers to tell the truth. So my focus today is to lay out your constitutional rights as an American, and let you decide what to do with those rights.
About a month ago I let the "democracy¨ word slip in a discussion with a fellow blogger. I know better. Americans have been conditioned to use this term. It's not an accurate term and it never has been a correct term to describe our form of government. The truth is that the United States of America is a constitutional republic. This is similar to a democracy because our representatives are selected by democratic elections, but ultimately our representatives are required to work within the framework of our constitution. In other words, even if 90% of Americans want something that goes against our founding principles, they have no right to call for a violation of constitutional rights.

If you are religious you might choose to think of it this way¡K Say that members of your congregation decide that mass fornication is a good thing. Do they have the right to change the teachings of your God? The truth is the truth. It doesn¡¦t matter how many people try to stray from it. Did I just compare our founders to God? In a way I did, but please note that I am not trying to insult anyone. For the purpose of the American Government our constitution and founders who wrote it are much like God is to believers. It is the law. It is indisputable.

Our founders did not want a "democracy¨ for they feared a true democracy was just as dangerous as a monarchy. The founders were highly educated people who were experienced in defending themselves against tyranny. They understood that the constitution could protect the people by limiting the power of anyone to work outside of it much better than a pure system of popularity. A system of checks and balances was set up to help limit corruption of government and also the potential for an ¡§immoral majority¡¨ developing within the American People. We have forgotten in this country that we are ultimately ruled by a constitution.

Why is a democracy potentially just as dangerous as a monarchy? Let¡¦s look at something that Benjamin Franklin said because it answers that question more fully and succinctly than I can.

Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote. -Benjamin Franklin

Even 230+ years ago our founders were perceptive enough to realize that democracy was a dangerous form of government. How so? Because the citizens of a country can become just as corrupt as any government. We have seen evidence of this throughout history. Ask Native Americans and African-Americans if this population can become corrupt.

I think in 2012 we are seeing evidence of what Franklin was trying to tell us. Just because a majority of people may support certain ideas it does not mean that those ideas are just. In simple terms, just because most Americans love our president and voted for him, it does not mean that he has the power to go against our constitutional rights.

Next I¡¦d like to review the text of the second amendment. It is very clear. This is the law of this land. So when Senator Feinstein or President Obama talk about taking your guns, you need to think about something. Are they honoring their sworn oath to uphold the constitution?

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State , the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
This is a pretty clear statement. The fact is that it took 232 years for the Supreme Court to even rule on this amendment because it has never been successfully challenged. In 2008 a case of Columbia v. Heller the Supreme Court ruled that a handgun ban in Washington D.C. was unconstitutional. One also has to take this into consideration. The Supreme Court supports your right to own guns. If you want to research this decision further you can start here.
For those who try to debate the spirit of the 2nd amendment, they are truly no different from people who will try to take Biblical quotes out of context to try to support their immoral decisions. The founders were very clear on the intent of the 2nd amendment. Let me share a few quick quotes here:

The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government. -Thomas Jefferson

Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people¡¦s liberty teeth and keystone under independence ¡K From the hour the Pilgrims landed, to the present day, events, occurrences, and tendencies prove that to insure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable . . . the very atmosphere of firearms everywhere restrains evil interference ¡V they deserve a place of honor with all that is good. -George Washington

The Constitution shall never be construed¡K.to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. -Samuel Adams

I could find hundreds of quotes like these. This country was built on the right to bear arms. It was built on the rights of an individual to bear arms, regardless of what his government or neighbor happened to think. This is crystal clear. Ironically the people who voice their opinions against this right have their free speech protected by your guns. Without guns in this country, all other amendments become null and void, simply because ¡§We the People¡¨ will lose our power of enforcement.
We need to keep this in mind as our ¡§representatives¡¨ try to push gun bans. I don¡¦t care if 99% of people are in support of gun bans (which is far from the case), it is a violation of our constitutional rights, plain and simple.

A constitutional republic protects the rights of the individual even when their ideas are very much  in the minority. If I were the only person in America who believed in the 2nd amendment, I would still be within my rights to call upon it. You would all think I was insane and possibly celebrate if I was gunned down, but in the end I would be the only true American among us.

Our framers were very clear on this. If my government comes to take my guns, they are violating one of my constitutional rights that is covered by the 2nd amendment.

It is not my right, at that point, but my responsibility to respond in the name of liberty. What I am telling you is something that many are trying to soft sell, and many others have tried to avoid putting into print, but I am going to say it. The time for speaking in code is over.

If they come for our guns then it is our constitutional right to put them six feet under. You have the right to kill any representative of this government who tries to tread on your liberty. I am thinking about self-defense and not talking about inciting a revolution. Re-read Jefferson ¡¦s quote. He talks about a ¡§last resort.¡¨ I am not trying to start a Revolt, I am talking about self-defense. If the day for Revolution comes, when no peaceful options exist, we may have to talk about that as well. None of us wants to think about that, but please understand that a majority can not take away your rights as an American citizen. Only you can choose to give up your rights.

Congress could pass gun ban legislation by a 90%+ margin and it just would not matter. I think some people are very unclear on this. This is the reason we have a Supreme Court, and though I do not doubt that the Supreme Court can also become corrupt, in 2008 they got it right. They supported the constitution. It does not matter what the majority supports because America is not a democracy. A constitutional republic protects the rights of every single citizen, no matter what their ¡§elected servants¡¨ say. A majority in America only matters when the constitution is not in play.

I just wrote what every believer in the constitution wants to say, and what every constitutional blogger needs to write. The truth of the matter is that this type of speech is viewed as dangerous and radical or subversive, and it could gain me a world of trouble that I do not want. It is also the truth. To make myself clear I will tell you again. If they come for your guns it is your right to use those guns against them and to kill them. You are protected by our constitution.

Most of the articles I am reading on the subject are trying to give you clues without just coming out and saying it. I understand that because certain things in this country will get you on a list that you don¡¦t want to be on. I may well be on that list. This blog is small and growing so I may not be there yet, but I have dreams. I also have my own list of subversives and anyone who attempts to deny my constitutional rights is on that list.

I am not the ¡§subversive¡¨ here, it is the political representatives who are threatening to take away my inalienable rights. If they come to take my guns and I leave a few of them wounded or dead, and I somehow survive, I have zero doubt that I will spend a long time in prison and may face an execution. But I would much rather be a political prisoner than a slave.

If I go down fighting then I was not fighting to harm these human beings. I was simply defending my liberty and yours. It is self-defense and it is what our country was built on. We won our freedom in self-defense. We would not be ruled by a tyrannical government in the 1770¡¬s and we will not be ruled in 2012 by a tyrannical government. There is no difference.

This is a case of right and wrong. As of now the 2nd amendment stands. It has never been repealed. If Feinstein or Barack have a problem with the constitution then they should be removed from office. They are not defending the constitution which they have sworn an oath to protect. It is treasonous to say the least. They would likely say the same about me, but I have the constitution, the founders, and the supreme court on my side. They only have their inflated egos.

I am not writing this to incite people. I am writing this in hopes that somehow I can make a tiny difference. I have no idea how many of my neighbors have the will to defend their constitutional rights. 2%? 20%? I am afraid that 20% is a high number, unfortunately. When push comes to shove many people may give up and submit to being ruled. I believe that our government is banking on this.


I would hope that our officials come to realize that, regardless of our numbers, we still exist because they are calling Patriotic Americans to action. They are making us decide if we want to die free or submit to their rule. I can not tell you where you should stand on that. I do know that it may make the difference between living a life of freedom or slavery.

You must start thinking about this because I believe that the day is coming soon and I personally believe it has already been planned. Not all conspiracy theories are hogwash. They may throw down the gauntlet soon and my suggestion is that you prepare yourself to react.

I mean no disrespect to our elected officials but they need to understand that ¡§We the People¡¨ will not be disarmed. If they proceed then it is they that are provoking us and we will act accordingly. We are within our rights to do so.

For those who are in support of taking the guns, you need to ask yourself a very important question, and I am not just talking about the politicians, because if you support them, you have chosen your side.

Are you willing to die to take my guns?

---------------------------------

Through regulations, taxation, inflation of the money supply, trade restrictions, and tethers on private associations, government itself is nothing but a massive drain on prosperity. The situation has become deeply dangerous for the future of freedom in America, with young people unable to find jobs, opportunities being destroyed in sector after sector, banks and corporations living on the dole, and so many regulations that we are living under something nearly as egregious as Soviet-style central planning. 

"Any man who thinks he can be happy and prosperous by letting the government take care of him --- better take a closer look at the American Indian."  Henry Ford


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## 660griz (Oct 9, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> _A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed._
> 
> Fa
> 
> Gun control proponents say that the 2A is crystal clear:  since we have a standing army, a militia is no longer needed;  therefore, Americans have no right to keep and bear arms.  Is that belief supported by the context?



Gun nuts would say it is crystal clear. No context needed.  
A militia is necessary AND the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Just to add some context, the founders did not trust standing armies in times of peace.


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## clayservant (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I was raised in a Southern Baptist Church.  At 13, I accepted Jesus as my personal Lord and Savior, was baptized, and joined the church.  From around 16 to my early 20's, I felt that I was being called to be a pastor and was seriously considering a life in the ministry.
> 
> If my current beliefs have to be classified, lets just call me a Christian who has lost his faith.
> 
> I've studied the Bible and many other resources the majority of my life, and continue to do so today.  I enjoy debating, whether I approach the debate from a Christian standpoint or Agnostic.  I sometimes learn more by approaching a debate from the opposite of the opinion I actually hold, so just because I present a certain standpoint, doesn't mean I personally believe that.



well my brother God is calling you back home, he is waiting to welcome you back, then you can start doin what you were put here to do, then and only then will you have peace, believe me I know, I was where you are at one time. and man it is GREAT to be home with the father.


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## HawgJawl (Oct 9, 2013)

clayservant said:


> well my brother God is calling you back home,



I'm listening, but I don't hear anything.


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## clayservant (Oct 9, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm listening, but I don't hear anything.



Listen to your heart.not your ears


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## fireman32 (Oct 9, 2013)

Just for the record I started reading in this forum to get a better understanding of Atheist, I know some personally and use them and this forum to kind of test my knowledge.  I will say that my knowledge and understanding isn't quite as deep as some on here. I do side with centerpin and JBO704 on the arguement side, they tend to word things better than I can.
On a different note, why all the discussion and debates why wasn't Jesus clear on baptism, certain rituals, why do men debate the Bible every day? I THINK it may be that these things aren't as important as the main message, (to be like Christ). If God would have made all things crystal clear, we would focus so much on it that we would lose sight of him.   Jesus taught Love and Forgiveness, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Just for the sake of argument, baptizing means to immerse.  When you are saved you are immersed in Jesus, not neccesarily in water. The main focus of Christianity, should be, to be like Christ, to let others see his love in you.  Get Christ right and other things will become clear.  How right do you have to get him for things to be clear to you?, I dunno.  Just my $.02


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## JB0704 (Oct 9, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> On a different note, why all the discussion and debates why wasn't Jesus clear on baptism, certain rituals, why do men debate the Bible every day? I THINK it may be that these things aren't as important as the main message, (to be like Christ).



It's fun   WE have some great threads on those items a few floors up in the spiritual forum.  I am constantly learning in there.  The AA's in this forum generally know their Bible better than most Christians I know personally which makes the discussions lively, and I learn from them too.

Thanks for your other thoughts, but, CP is much more articulate and witty than I am.  



fireman32 said:


> The main focus of Christianity, should be, to be like Christ, to let others see his love in you.



Agreed.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2013)

> Originally Posted by fireman32 View Post
> The main focus of Christianity, should be, to be like Christ, to let others see his love in you.


To know what Christ was like a person would have to use the New Testament as his/her guide. Some of the problems arise when the NT claims do not hold up under scrutiny and then doubts begin as to what is or is not true. Many believe that a lot of it was fabricated stories about a real man. Many believe Jesus was a  charismatic preacher of God and love, like many before him and after him, but falls short in the God department. Many wonder where the line is between actual Jesus and embellished Jesus and while "Do good, Be Good" is a great message and and words to live your life by but are decent life teachings worth worshiping the person they came from as a God?


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## 660griz (Oct 10, 2013)

bullethead said:


> "Do good, Be Good" is a great message and and words to live your life by but are decent life teachings worth worshiping the person they came from as a God?




Should we require our kids to worship us as well?


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Should we require our kids to worship us as well?



All we would need is 12 buddies to drink the Kool-Aid in a time where a new religious leader was needed and in an era where a Messiah was expected. Get a bunch of guys going around telling of "miracles" and people get on board rather quickly. Write it down 40-80 years later and lots things can enter into the mix.

I recently had a few friends from High School come into town. About ten of us met and reminisced about old times. There were more than a few very un-miraculous incidents talked about that seemed to have a few things added to them by others and confirmed and added to even more by people that were not even there at the time.
I snickered more than once thinking how such insignificant things can snow ball in 26 years compared to how much could and would and were added to a charismatic self proclaimed holy man's adventures.


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## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2013)

clayservant said:


> Listen to your heart.not your ears


While this is a quaint saying, it means nothing. We all know what a heart does, it pumps blood. Its a muscle. It doesn't contain emotions or knowledge or information. If you listen to it you hear nothing but a heart beat (hopefully).
All this saying does is serve as an excuse that insists the message is being sent but there is something wrong with you that you cant hear it. It takes all the responsibility off the message sender and puts it completely on the message receiver. Pretty convenient little saying and is very effective at side stepping the very probable scenario that there may be no message at all.


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## 660griz (Oct 10, 2013)

I think the basic message is, 'God' needs money.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> 'God' needs money.



No, Mars needs women!


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## 660griz (Oct 10, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, Mars needs women!



Do they have lots of laundry and dirty dishes up there? 

(Am I glad my wife doesn't get on here.)


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## centerpin fan (Oct 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Do they have lots of laundry and dirty dishes up there?



If Mars is mostly a bunch of bachelors, you _know_ there's laundry and dirty dishes.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> So, you agree gays should be put to death?
> "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."



Jesus said let the one who is without sin among you first cast the stone to the woman caught in adultery-same punishment as homosexuality. 

Probably deserves it's own thread.


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 10, 2013)

Bullet, great article thanks.. but what happens when our republic passes an amendment striking out the second?
Is there a moral imperative beyond the constitution?


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## HawgJawl (Oct 10, 2013)

fireman32 said:


> Get Christ right and other things will become clear.



That is my point here.  Everyone who is right with Christ should be clear on at least most of the other things, which means that they should agree with each other on the things that they are clear on.


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## clayservant (Oct 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> While this is a quaint saying, it means nothing. We all know what a heart does, it pumps blood. Its a muscle. It doesn't contain emotions or knowledge or information. If you listen to it you hear nothing but a heart beat (hopefully).
> All this saying does is serve as an excuse that insists the message is being sent but there is something wrong with you that you cant hear it. It takes all the responsibility off the message sender and puts it completely on the message receiver. Pretty convenient little saying and is very effective at side stepping the very probable scenario that there may be no message at all.



I mean you no harm,  I  come in peace....
The term Heart as used in the Bible as well as places in the world, is meaning the MAN INSIDE-the real you-the Spirit of man.  

1  you are a Spirit 

2 you have a soul

3 and you live in a body

the Heart of man is th center of you, the real you.
just listen to your Spirit.

Gods Blessings on you.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> I think the basic message is, 'God' needs money.



It,s  all his anyway.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 10, 2013)

I just want to thank you all for letting me share my side of the debate, you guys are very nice and handle things like true men, I don,t find this in many forums.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I mean you no harm,  I  come in peace....
> The term Heart as used in the Bible as well as places in the world, is meaning the MAN INSIDE-the real you-the Spirit of man.
> 
> 1  you are a Spirit
> ...


Well, I didn't perceive you as meaning harm nor do I intend any. Having said that,
1. We are all humans not Spirits.
2. Is an opinion that has not a shred of proof behind it.
3. I have a body however I don't actually live inside it.
The point remains the same and ties into previous points made in this thread. And none of what you said addresses this (not that you are required to) - 


> All this saying does is serve as an excuse that insists the message is being sent but there is something wrong with you that you cant hear it. It takes all the responsibility off the message sender and puts it completely on the message receiver. Pretty convenient little saying and is very effective at side stepping the very probable scenario that there may be no message at all.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Well, I didn't perceive you as meaning harm nor do I intend any. Having said that,
> 1. We are all humans not Spirits.
> 2. Is an opinion that has not a shred of proof behind it.
> 3. I have a body however I don't actually live inside it.
> The point remains the same and ties into previous points made in this thread. And none of what you said addresses this (not that you are required to) -



1  we do not agree

2 your soul is your mind, your will and your emotions

3 The body without the Spirit is dead.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 10, 2013)

clayservant said:


> It,s  all his anyway.



I know, the lord giveth and the lord taketh away. 
Indian giver.


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 10, 2013)

clayservant said:


> 1  we do not agree
> 
> 2 your soul is your mind, your will and your emotions
> 
> 3 The body without the Spirit is dead.


So I have to ask, are your presenting these as facts or what you personally believe?


----------



## bullethead (Oct 10, 2013)

ddd-shooter said:


> Bullet, great article thanks.. but what happens when our republic passes an amendment striking out the second?
> Is there a moral imperative beyond the constitution?



Then I guess for some it will be personal. Like most things, might will make right.......one way or the other.


----------



## clayservant (Oct 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> So I have to ask, are your presenting these as facts or what you personally believe?



well #1 is a fact

2and3 what I believe..lol.lol


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 11, 2013)

clayservant said:


> It,s  all his anyway.





660griz said:


> I know, the lord giveth and the lord taketh away.
> Indian giver.



An aspect of tithing or just giving an offering to the church which I find interesting is this:

Level A - The church spends money from the church account for a charitable cause.

Level B - The church asks the congregation for money to replinish the church account.

The church tells the congregation that when you give God your money, God will miraculously reimburse you ten-fold, or something along those lines.

My question is this:  Why is the miraculous replinishing of funds only available to Level B (the congregation) and not to Level A (the church account)?


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> An aspect of tithing or just giving an offering to the church which I find interesting is this:
> 
> Level A - The church spends money from the church account for a charitable cause.
> 
> ...



Are we quesitoning the logic of what a church says, or what the Bible actually says on the subject?  Two very different topics.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 11, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Are we quesitoning the logic of what a church says, or what the Bible actually says on the subject?  Two very different topics.



Either God miraculously reimburses the gift of money or not.

If God does miraculously reimburse the gift of money, why does it have to be one step removed from the church before God reimburses?

Why couldn't the pastor spend the money and it be miraculously reimbursed to the pastor?

I served as an usher and collected the offering and I know that there was no miracle involved at the church level.

If the miracle was promised 4 or 5 levels down by telling the congregation to give an offering and then go solicit reimbursement from someone outside the church in the form of an offering for the church, and so on, it would turn into a typical pyramid scheme.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Either God miraculously reimburses the gift of money or not.
> 
> If God does miraculously reimburse the gift of money, why does it have to be one step removed from the church before God reimburses?
> 
> ...



Yea, but who promised the reimbursement?


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yea, but who promised the reimbursement?



Malachi 3:10-12 states bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.  And I will rebuke the devourers for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.  

Luke 6:38 states give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom.  For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.  

2nd Corinthians 9:6-8 states he which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Malachi 3:10-12 states bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.  And I will rebuke the devourers for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.
> 
> Luke 6:38 states give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom.  For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
> 
> 2nd Corinthians 9:6-8 states he which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.  Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.



The question remains.  You are reading into those scriptures what you want, as is the church who promises reimbursement. 

Nowhere does it say that if I give $10 I'll be getting $100 back.  What is given back "bountifully?"  Could it be that the Bible discusses the useless nature of riches in several places, so one would be quite mislead if he were to believe God promised hium riches int he event that he gave?

Heck, man......I could plug all sorts of things into the above verses and the meaning would not be diminished....happiness, peace, safety, etc.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The question remains.  You are reading into those scriptures what you want, as is the church who promises reimbursement.
> 
> Nowhere does it say that if I give $10 I'll be getting $100 back.  What is given back "bountifully?"  Could it be that the Bible discusses the useless nature of riches in several places, so one would be quite mislead if he were to believe God promised hium riches int he event that he gave?
> 
> Heck, man......I could plug all sorts of things into the above verses and the meaning would not be diminished....happiness, peace, safety, etc.



According to scripture just being obedient to God will ensure success and prosperity.

Psalms 1:1-3 states blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.  But his delight is in the law of the Lord; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.  And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.  

Psalms 112:1-3 states praise ye the Lord.  Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.  His seed shall be mighty upon the earth: the generations of the upright shall be blessed.  Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.  

2nd Corinthians 9:10-11 states he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.  

Psalms 25:12-13 states what man is he that feareth the Lord?  Him shall he teach in the way that he shall choose.  His soul shall dwell at ease; and his seed shall inherit the earth.  

Psalms 84:11-12 states the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.  O Lord of hosts, blessed is the man that trusteth in thee.  

Psalms 128:1-3 states blessed is every one that feareth the Lord; that walketh in his ways.  For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee.  Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table.  

Ecc 3:13 states every man shall eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.  

Deuteronomy 8:18 states thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which we sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.  

Ecc 5:18-19 states it is good and comely for one to eat and to drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labour that he taketh under the sun all the days of his life, which God giveth him: for it is his portion.  Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.  

Deuteronomy 28:8 states the Lord shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the Lord thy God giveth thee.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> According to scripture just being obedient to God will ensure success and prosperity.



HawgJawl, none of those scriptures reinforced your premise.  You are defining blessings as money.

"Blessed are the poor in spirit."

Just something to think on......read up on the beattitudes and let me know if you think God always defines blessings as monetary wealth in the Bible.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

Those scriptures I quoted make it clear that wealth comes from God.

"Whatever he doeth shall prosper"
"Wealth and riches shall be in his house"
"for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth"
"to whom God hath given riches and wealth"


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Those scriptures I quoted make it clear that wealth comes from God.
> 
> "Whatever he doeth shall prosper"
> "Wealth and riches shall be in his house"
> ...



Ok.  Technically, the Bible says everything comes from God, so you are not really bringing anything to the table to support your claim that the Bible says if you give you will be reimbursed 10 fold. You have failed to demonstrate that.  It does not.  Such claims are generally made by televangelists trying to get old people to send in their pensions......and athesits trying to say the Bible don't work as promised.  

Prosperity, blessings and wealth all have very different meanings.

You have connected some dots that should not be connected in order to make a point, here.  In doing so, you hae done what many of you accuse religious folks of doing: twisting scripture to fit your purpose.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 14, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Ok.  Technically, the Bible says everything comes from God, so you are not really bringing anything to the table to support your claim that the Bible says if you give you will be reimbursed 10 fold. You have failed to demonstrate that.  It does not.  Such claims are generally made by televangelists trying to get old people to send in their pensions......and athesits trying to say the Bible don't work as promised.
> 
> Prosperity, blessings and wealth all have very different meanings.
> 
> You have connected some dots that should not be connected in order to make a point, here.  In doing so, you hae done what many of you accuse religious folks of doing: twisting scripture to fit your purpose.



I agree with you.  I was being sarcastic.  It was never my intention to prove that scripture promises reimbursement.  I was providing scripture that can and has been used to perpetuate the pyramid scheme concept by some.  I just find it interesting that so many people buy into that mentality.


----------



## JB0704 (Oct 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree with you.  I was being sarcastic.  It was never my intention to prove that scripture promises reimbursement.  I was providing scripture that can and has been used to perpetuate the pyramid scheme concept by some.  I just find it interesting that so many people buy into that mentality.



Gotcha, and I agree.  It's a real shame too.  I think people who use faith and god to rip people off, Hurt folks, and seek personal gain at others expense are a special kind of evil.  They make me sick.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 15, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The church tells the congregation that when you give God your money, God will miraculously reimburse you ten-fold, or something along those lines.



I would find a different church because if your church is really preaching that, it ain't exactly scriptural.


----------



## HawgJawl (Oct 15, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I would find a different church because if your church is really preaching that, it ain't exactly scriptural.



Just about every church I've attended has at one point preached something that wasn't scriptural.  It was perhaps with good intentions, but there is almost always some personal opinion.


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

*ON no you didnt*



clayservant said:


> Yes I know that, and I do not want to push anything on you guys in any way, I am just a 49 year old Minister that has been through heck and back, I had a 25 year Alcohol Addiciton and GOD set me free 2 years and 76 days ago,
> So I just want to be of help to anyone I can.



God set you free! So by your own admission God held you captive with the demon alcohol then out of sheer compasion set you free!

God does nothing but provide themeans for us to make a decision to change.  GOD canot do anything for you other than put the choice in front you!


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Best seller*



centerpin fan said:


> It's the #1 seller.



If it is the word of GOD why are we required to "BUY IT" It should be free!


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

piratebob64 said:


> If it is the word of GOD why are we required to "BUY IT" It should be free!



As pnome pointed out in another thread, you can easily get a free Bible.  The Gideons have been giving them away forever.  (I still have two Gideon NT's I got in college.)


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

clayservant said:


> I was born again at the age of 15, I had a very bad childhood to say the least, but I studied the Bible for about 4 years then I started to hang with the wrong crowd and go hooked on drugs and booze,at the age of 22 I stopped the drugs at 35 but I still drank and could not get off of it, I would be sober for a few months and started with a bible school in correspondance,but I would fall back on the bottle again and again, I got my diploma from bible school after 4 years but I still drank, then my health went bad and I knew I had to stop, so  2 years and 77 days ago I told God that what ever time I had left I would serve him and Help others if he set me free from alcohol once and for all, well he did and I did.






 I got my diploma from bible school after 4 years but I still drank, then my health went bad and I knew I had to stop,
So "YOU" knew you needed to stop and "YOU" did!

so  2 years and 77 days ago I "told God" that what ever time I had left I would serve him and Help others if he set me free from alcohol once and for all, well he did and I did.

Wow you have a big set on you "TELLING GOD" what you would do if he did what you told Him!


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

*A direct example!!*



centerpin fan said:


> A direct example would be better.



That was the best direct example I have seen!


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

piratebob64 said:


> That was the best direct example I have seen!



Just so I don't have to reread the last nine pages ... what are you talking about?


----------



## drippin' rock (Oct 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree with you.  I was being sarcastic.  It was never my intention to prove that scripture promises reimbursement.  I was providing scripture that can and has been used to perpetuate the pyramid scheme concept by some.  I just find it interesting that so many people buy into that mentality.



I think what really happens is this. You make the decision to tithe, and in doing so you pay closer attention to your finances. Your money is tight, so you cut some frivolous things out to make room for tithing.  Nothing miraculous going on, you just pay closer attention to your money.


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

*Reimbursements*



HawgJawl said:


> I agree with you.  I was being sarcastic.  It was never my intention to prove that scripture promises reimbursement.  I was providing scripture that can and has been used to perpetuate the pyramid scheme concept by some.  I just find it interesting that so many people buy into that mentality.



IMHO,
When the bible talks of tithing and giving the people that wrote the bible got it wrong! They just wanted some free stuff!
Again IMHO it means to give ones "self" "heart" "soul" to GOD and your bounty will runnith over! it meant nothing about monetary things that GOD has no need for!


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Gotcha, and I agree.  It's a real shame too.  I think people who use faith and god to rip people off, Hurt folks, and seek personal gain at others expense are a special kind of evil.  They make me sick.



IMHO,
When the bible talks of tithing and giving the people that wrote the bible got it wrong! They just wanted some free stuff!
Again IMHO it means to give ones "self" "heart" "soul" to GOD and your bounty will runnith over! it meant nothing about monetary things that GOD has no need for!


----------



## piratebob64 (Oct 16, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Just so I don't have to reread the last nine pages ... what are you talking about?



Page 7 I think when making comparisons to passages from Bible to bible.


----------



## centerpin fan (Oct 16, 2013)

piratebob64 said:


> Page 7 I think when making comparisons to passages from Bible to bible.



But he was _not_ making comparisons to passages from Bible to Bible.  He used an example that's not in any Bible.


----------



## 660griz (Oct 16, 2013)

Use the 'code' in the bible to make money. Awesome. The church could use this. 

http://www.moneynews.com/MKTNews/Financial-bible-Hyman/2013/07/08/id/513894/?promo_code=141AD-1


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 22, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Just about every church I've attended has at one point preached something that wasn't scriptural.  It was perhaps with good intentions, but there is almost always some personal opinion.



Churches are full of us imperfect people doing our best(hopefully) to present a perfect God.  Find one that teaches the Bible as you understand it personally and look over the blemishes of the people.  You are gonna have some too that others are going to have to overlook.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 22, 2013)

piratebob64 said:


> God set you free! So by your own admission God held you captive with the demon alcohol then out of sheer compasion set you free!



That's a deliberate falsification of what he said and a prime example of why an intelligent conversation on this forum is so rare.  Too many posters willing to forsake any shred of integrity or honesty to disparage another or another's belief.  Say what you will about the other religious forum members, but you don't see that type of miasmic behavior there.



piratebob64 said:


> God does nothing but provide themeans for us to make a decision to change.  GOD canot do anything for you other than put the choice in front you!



Think about what you just said.  Even if it is true, how BIG is that?  What other entity provides us a "means"  to make a decision to change?


----------



## WaltL1 (Oct 22, 2013)

> That's a deliberate falsification of what he said and a prime example of why an intelligent conversation on this forum is so rare. Too many posters willing to forsake any shred of integrity or honesty to disparage another or another's belief. Say what you will about the other religious forum members, but you don't see that type of miasmic behavior there.


I have to laugh when you say things like this considering the personal trash you have talked about atheism. You are wrong that nothing has changed. Blatant hypocricy hasn't been involved at all lately. Welcome back to you and it.


> What other entity provides us a "means" to make a decision to change?


Wives, family, friends, ourselves, doctors etc, etc, etc, And yes for some religion/God


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Oct 22, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I have to laugh when you say things like this considering the personal trash you have talked about atheism. You are wrong that nothing has changed. Blatant hypocricy hasn't been involved at all lately. Welcome back to you and it.
> 
> Wives, family, friends, ourselves, doctors etc, etc, etc, And yes for some religion/God



Walt, don't bother Brother.  Your wasting ATP.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If God has ONE plan/goal/wish for all mankind,
> If God allows communication between Himself and His righteous followers (personal relationship - prayer),
> If God attempts to relay this ONE plan/goal/wish to His righteous followers,
> Then God is unable to effectively accomplish this communication.
> ...



If we believe that the Bible was accurately written, then we must believe that clear communication is possible between God and man.

If we refuse to even consider the possibility of communicating with God today, why is that?

The easiest excuse is to say that God has changed and no longer does that.  

Is it possible that we make excuses for why God is not talking to us by blaming it on anything other than ourselves?  Could it be that God only speaks to the truly righteous and we refuse to accept that we just don't qualify?


----------



## oldfella1962 (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The Bible provides many examples of men who heard and understood exactly what God said to them.  They wrote this communication into scripture and we believe it to be God's exact words.  Some of these men were not Godly men seeking God's direction but they still received the message loud and clear.  Why would a righteous man desperately seeking God's direction be unable to understand the message?



In the modern age some of the people God has "spoken directly to" went on insane killing sprees. Guess they misunderstood the message.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 1, 2013)

oldfella1962 said:


> In the modern age some of the people God has "spoken directly to" went on insane killing sprees. Guess they misunderstood the message.



Possibly, but there are many examples of mass killings, including all women, children, and elderly, ordered by God in the books of Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, and Judges.  Who is to say that they misunderstood?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 1, 2013)

Still putting down some deep challenges, Hawg. Nice.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Possibly, but there are many examples of mass killings, including all women, children, and elderly, ordered by God in the books of Exodus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, and Judges.  Who is to say that they misunderstood?



When I posted evidence from scripture of some of the atrocities, I got, "Could it be that you are misrepresenting The teachings of Christianity?"


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 1, 2013)

660griz said:


> When I posted evidence from scripture of some of the atrocities, I got, "Could it be that you are misrepresenting The teachings of Christianity?"



It's difficult to find a Christian who wants to talk about the Old Testament in depth.  The New Testament is where we get to read about how important we are and how much we are loved.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's difficult to find a Christian who wants to talk about the Old Testament in depth.



It's more difficult to find a skeptic who wants to ask a Jew about the Old Testament.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's difficult to find a Christian who wants to talk about the Old Testament in depth.



You could always email these guys.

http://www.dts.edu/departments/academic/ot/


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 1, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> You could always email these guys.
> 
> http://www.dts.edu/departments/academic/ot/



I'm more interested in discussing the underlying reasons why a person avoids or ignores certain areas of their own professed beliefs.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's difficult to find a Christian who wants to talk about the Old Testament in depth.  The New Testament is where we get to read about how important we are and how much we are loved.



A case of Biblical Evolution, perhaps? A creation adapting to give itself a more advantageous position within its environment?


----------



## 660griz (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> It's difficult to find a Christian who wants to talk about the Old Testament in depth.  The New Testament is where we get to read about how important we are and how much we are loved.



Even among Christians, it is hard to find out if the Old Testament is to be obeyed. Some say, yes and quote a verse from Matthew. Some say, no, and quote a verse from others.

I am beginning to think when most Christians talk about the Bible is their guide, etc. They really mean New Testament (and the first part of the Old Testament).


----------



## 660griz (Nov 1, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> A case of Biblical Evolution, perhaps?



Religious evolution. The bible remains the same but, the things that are no longer tolerated are ignored.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 1, 2013)

660griz said:


> Even among Christians, it is hard to find out if the Old Testament is to be obeyed. Some say, yes and quote a verse from Matthew. Some say, no, and quote a verse from others.
> 
> I am beginning to think when most Christians talk about the Bible is their guide, etc. They really mean New Testament (and the first part of the Old Testament).



Step #1 is understanding the difference between those two words.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 1, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Step #1 is understanding the difference between those two words.



Is it like my old boots and my new boots?  I use them both.  Its just that the new ones look better in public?


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 1, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Is it like my old boots and my new boots?  I use them both.  Its just that the new ones look better in public?



Step #2 is understanding the meaning of the word "testament" (covenant.)


----------



## holler tree (Nov 1, 2013)

Can any of you explain your existence ? I mean that should be really simple since you've figured out God doesn't exist. I see the evidence all around me that my God is an awesome God . He provides me with everything all the way down to the air I breathe. Thank you Jesus for all that you do !! Y'all should really wake up your missing so much.


----------



## WaltL1 (Nov 1, 2013)

holler tree said:


> Can any of you explain your existence ? I mean that should be really simple since you've figured out God doesn't exist. I see the evidence all around me that my God is an awesome God . He provides me with everything all the way down to the air I breathe. Thank you Jesus for all that you do !! Y'all should really wake up your missing so much.


Im curious about what is being missed? We live on the same earth, hunt, fish, work, raise families, laugh, love, good, bad, everything exactly the same.
Anything you think we are missing exists only in your mind.
If that makes you happy, great. Not everybody needs it.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 2, 2013)

holler tree said:


> Can any of you explain your existence ? I mean that should be really simple since you've figured out God doesn't exist. I see the evidence all around me that my God is an awesome God . He provides me with everything all the way down to the air I breathe. Thank you Jesus for all that you do !! Y'all should really wake up your missing so much.



How can you be certain that Shiva provides all this?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 2, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Step #2 is understanding the meaning of the word "testament" (covenant.)



Is that like a promise you make and then decide to change your mind and make a new promise?


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 4, 2013)

holler tree said:


> Can any of you explain your existence ? I mean that should be really simple since you've figured out God doesn't exist. I see the evidence all around me that my God is an awesome God . He provides me with everything all the way down to the air I breathe. Thank you Jesus for all that you do !! Y'all should really wake up your missing so much.



The notion that I would have to "wake up," also can be read as engaging my mind, to see Jesus is outright laughable. 

The waking man reasons, and reason flies absolutely in the face of religion. That's why they call it a leap of faith, instead of a logical step.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Step #1 is understanding the difference between those two words.



I understood the difference in the first grade.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Step #2 is understanding the meaning of the word "testament" (covenant.)



Step #3 Throw all reason aside and just believe. Interpret the bible to meet your lifestyle.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 4, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm more interested in discussing the underlying reasons why a person avoids or ignores certain areas of their own professed beliefs.



As you can see by the numerous deflections, it just isn't going to happen.


----------



## holler tree (Nov 4, 2013)

I've gotten a few hits but no answers to my question. Everything created must have a creator wouldn't that be considered a "logical step" ??


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 4, 2013)

660griz said:


> I understood the difference in the first grade.



I see no evidence of that -- from you or any of the other skeptics.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 4, 2013)

660griz said:


> Throw all reason aside and just believe.



I don't believe that and don't know any Christians who do.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 4, 2013)

holler tree said:


> I've gotten a few hits but no answers to my question. Everything created must have a creator wouldn't that be considered a "logical step" ??



Science says that I don't know what created, or preceded it, yet. We know that matter came from the initial energy, but we don't know where the energy came from; it could be an infinite loop of energy/matter and that this is merely one iteration of untold quantities. Science is never satisfied with the current answer and seeks to go one step further, which, even I admit, may run into a point where God is irrefutable. 

Using Jesus as an answer is saying that I don't have the answer, don't care to have the answer, and use this to avoid further discussion about those things.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Nov 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I don't believe that and don't know any Christians who do.



They do require you to throw all reason away on certain topics; certainly not all, but quite a few. 

Jonah and the whale, Noah's ark, God in Heaven at all, Satan in Hades at all, talking donkeys, burning bushes, parting seas, etc. 

Either you accept them as parable, which re-invites the discussions we have on cherry picking the Bible or whether the Bible is the whole word of God or not, or you accept them as literal truth.


----------



## WaltL1 (Nov 4, 2013)

holler tree said:


> I've gotten a few hits but no answers to my question. Everything created must have a creator wouldn't that be considered a "logical step" ??


No using the word "creator" is not a logical step. Creator is a singular word. It is only considered logical to someone who, in your case, believes "God" or a single "thing" created everything. You can believe that but its not fact nor is it logical. And you have gotten answers but I guess what you are looking for is "I don't know".
Im wondering why you don't use your own logic on your beliefs - who created God? Couldn't create himself because you have to exist to create something. Everything created must have a creator right?


----------



## 660griz (Nov 4, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I see no evidence of that -- from you or any of the other skeptics.



Well, you must be blinded by the light. Old vs. New is not synonymous with use vs. don't use or accept vs. don't accept. The definition of old vs. new is virtually irrelevant in a discussion about why PARTS of the OLD (and new) are not followed by PARTS of the Christian community. Why some claim it(old) should be followed and some say parts of it should. Add to that, a simple question is asked and...well, we all see the results. We just don't understand definitions of old vs. new, we are taking out of context, etc., ad nauseum.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 5, 2013)

660griz said:


> Well, you must be blinded by the light. Old vs. New is not synonymous with use vs. don't use or accept vs. don't accept. The definition of old vs. new is virtually irrelevant in a discussion about why PARTS of the OLD (and new) are not followed by PARTS of the Christian community. Why some claim it(old) should be followed and some say parts of it should. Add to that, a simple question is asked and...well, we all see the results. We just don't understand definitions of old vs. new, we are taking out of context, etc., ad nauseum.



More evidence that post 455 is 100% correct.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Step #2 is understanding the meaning of the word "testament" (covenant.)



God made a covenant with Noah and all his descendants, which is everyone on earth.

God made a covenant with Abraham and all his descendants.  There are obviously many descendants of Abraham alive today, but the covenant (that was supposed to be for all his descendants) is no longer in effect.

God made a covenant with Moses and the Israelites.  Then another.

God made a covenant with Aaron and all his descendants.  There are obviously many descendants of Aaron alive today, but the covenant (that was supposed to be for all his descendants) is no longer in effect.

God made a covenant with David and all his descendants.  Same story.

Based upon the changing covenants in the Bible, how could we possibly justify an assertion that it can't all change again next week?

The point being, our New Testament could join the rest and become Old Testament.


----------



## 660griz (Nov 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> More evidence that post 455 is 100% correct.



Sure wish there was better understanding of the meaning of evidence.
Great conversation though.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God made a covenant with Abraham and all his descendants.



Period.  End of discussion.




HawgJawl said:


> God made a covenant with Abraham and all his descendants.  There are obviously many descendants of Abraham alive today, but the covenant (that was supposed to be for all his descendants) is no longer in effect.



Not true.  Read Galatians 3.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 5, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Period.  End of discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Saying that being a Christian makes you a descendant of Abraham and an heir to his blessing is just another way of saying that the covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants is no longer just between God and Abraham and his descendants.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 5, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Saying that being a Christian makes you a descendant of Abraham and an heir to his blessing is just another way of saying that the covenant between God and Abraham and his descendants is no longer just between God and Abraham and his descendants.



Disagree.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Disagree.



Do you believe it to still be in effect that no one other than an Aaronite can be a priest and no one other than a Levite can assist in priestly duties?


----------



## 660griz (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe it to still be in effect that no one other than an Aaronite can be a priest and no one other than a Levite can assist in priestly duties?



Well if it is because the old testament said it then absolutely...maybe.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe it to still be in effect that no one other than an Aaronite can be a priest and no one other than a Levite can assist in priestly duties?



In effect for whom?  Christians or Jews?


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> In effect for whom?  Christians or Jews?



Whichever pleases you?


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Whichever pleases you?



"Ask a Jew" pleases me.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "Ask a Jew" pleases me.



You're the one who brought up covenants.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> You're the one who brought up covenants.



... and you're the one who brought up the Levitical priesthood.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> ... and you're the one who brought up the Levitical priesthood.



That was God's covenant with Aaron and his descendants.  I was asking if you believe that covenant is still in effect or if God has abandoned it or changed it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> That was God's covenant with Aaron and his descendants.  I was asking if you believe that covenant is still in effect or if God has abandoned it or changed it.



I gave you my answer in post 469.


----------



## HawgJawl (Nov 6, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I gave you my answer in post 469.



I don't see an answer there.  I see a question.

A simple "No" is what I was looking for.


----------



## centerpin fan (Nov 6, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> A simple "No" is what I was looking for.



Seek, and ye shall find.


----------



## ambush80 (Nov 7, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Seek, and ye shall find.




Why so cryptic?


----------



## howee24 (Dec 9, 2013)

I dont quite have the time at the moment to read every thread but thought i would chime in to the original question and say you are actually right. He is unable to establish a connection with any of us until we choose with our own will to get to know and accept Him. If He could then He would have a world full of robots that have no choice but to love Him. He would rather us decide on our own.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I dont quite have the time at the moment to read every thread but thought i would chime in to the original question and say you are actually right. He is unable to establish a connection with any of us until we choose with our own will to get to know and accept Him. If He could then He would have a world full of robots that have no choice but to love Him. He would rather us decide on our own.



What is your association with God that you know WHAT he wants and that you can speak for him?

Is this what you THINK or has God told you directly?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I dont quite have the time at the moment to read every thread but thought i would chime in to the original question and say you are actually right. He is unable to establish a connection with any of us until we choose with our own will to get to know and accept Him. If He could then He would have a world full of robots that have no choice but to love Him. He would rather us decide on our own.



Is your God capable of establishing a connection with everyone and then letting each individual decide whether or not they want to accept it?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

Another "green lighter" gone "grey" when the questions start.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 9, 2013)

> He is unable to establish a connection with any of us until we choose with our own will to get to know and accept Him


That's pretty much the opposite of omnipotent isn't it? 


> If He could then He would have a world full of robots that have no choice but to love Him. He would rather us decide on our own.


You may be right that he can't. Would be a good reason why He11 is necessary to the story.


> He would rather us decide on our own


However the deck is stacked with the threat of eternal torture. Sure choose on your own but you will pay forever if you don't choose me.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 9, 2013)

Why would HE care if we're robots anyway? He made us, why not make it so that his creations all love him and adulate him?


----------



## howee24 (Dec 9, 2013)

I wasnt going "grey" lol im at work. I see im already outnumbered. Its not what i think its what i believe. His word told me directly. Thats about as far as my debate will go. Sorry if i offended anybody. Ill leave yall with a question. How does electricity work?


----------



## bullethead (Dec 9, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I wasnt going "grey" lol im at work. I see im already outnumbered. Its not what i think its what i believe. His word told me directly. Thats about as far as my debate will go. Sorry if i offended anybody. Ill leave yall with a question. How does electricity work?



I was not offended. I get very skeptical when people tell me what God wants, how he feels, and speak for God as if God asked you to do it.

http://science.howstuffworks.com/electricity.htm
There will be a quiz


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 9, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I dont quite have the time at the moment to read every thread but thought i would chime in to the original question and say you are actually right. He is unable to establish a connection with any of us until we choose with our own will to get to know and accept Him. If He could then He would have a world full of robots that have no choice but to love Him. He would rather us decide on our own.



Thanks for posting.

I realize you have not read the entire thread so let me clarify one issue.  I'm not inferring that God should be able to communicate ONE clear message to every person on earth or even to all Christians.  If we reduce it to a small fraction of Christains by only considering the leaders of Christian churches within the Evangelical Protestant family, we still see no common message.  

If all the pastors of Southern Baptist churches agreed upon all issues because they were being led by ONE God with ONE message, then we could say that all the other denominations (which would be the vast majority of Christians) are wrong.

There are so many divisions in Christian dogma that if any ONE is right, the majority must then be wrong.

Thanks again for posting.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 9, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I wasnt going "grey" lol im at work. I see im already outnumbered. Its not what i think its what i believe. His word told me directly. Thats about as far as my debate will go. Sorry if i offended anybody. Ill leave yall with a question. How does electricity work?





> I see im already outnumbered.


You think you are outnumbered here? Go to the Spiritual forum and post that God is UNABLE to establish a connection or is unable to do anything and you'll see what outnumbered is. And it wont be by Atheists/Agnostics


----------



## howee24 (Dec 9, 2013)

I have to say i somewhat agree hawg but to a certain extent. There are too many denominations in this world today that are made to fit certain peoples lives and traditions more than Gods word and His precepts. Its exhausting nowadays for a christian to find a good church that totally lines up with the Word of God. I grew up as a southern baptist but now go to a methodist church where my pastor doesnt even follow most of the traditional ways of methodist and is slowly kinda getting everybody out of that mindset trying to get back to the true meaning of Gods message and what his word really teaches. These things are what discourages so many people from pursuing God and trying to seek said connection. God is all around us and always available to those who call on His name. But once you permit something to be "important" to your belief system it will continually spot things around you that are relevant to that making whatever is important grow stronger everyday such as believing, not believing, hunting, fishing, etc. Sorry if i rambled a little but im trying to do this while holding a convo with my wife and a five year old all at the same time. Not much free time lol


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 9, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I dont quite have the time at the moment to read every thread but thought i would chime in to the original question and say you are actually right. He is unable to establish a connection with any of us until we choose with our own will to get to know and accept Him. If He could then He would have a world full of robots that have no choice but to love Him. He would rather us decide on our own.




One tangent.  Do you think that you can sin in Heaven?  If you can't then aren't you a "robot"?


----------



## howee24 (Dec 9, 2013)

Matthew 5:3-16, 48 NKJV
“Blessed  are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.  Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

The ones who make it to Heaven will be the ones that knew on earth that they could never be perfect down here but continued to strive toward it. This being the case once in heaven, being perfect, the people have finally reached their goal and live with the Father they have longed for so how could they be robots if they want to be that way. Robots dont choose, dont strive for anything. They only do what theyre programmed to do.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I see im already outnumbered.



The Christian/AA split in here is pretty even.  The issue isn't that you were outnumbered, it's that you went into an area where Christians are split amongst themselves.

The freewill/predes debate happens all over this sub forum and the spiritual subforum above.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> Matthew 5:3-16, 48 NKJV
> “Blessed  are the poor in spirit, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, For they shall be comforted. Blessed are the meek, For they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, For they shall be filled. Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake.  Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.  Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.  Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven. Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
> 
> The ones who make it to Heaven will be the ones that knew on earth that they could never be perfect down here but continued to strive toward it. This being the case once in heaven, being perfect, the people have finally reached their goal and live with the Father they have longed for so how could they be robots if they want to be that way. Robots dont choose, dont strive for anything. They only do what theyre programmed to do.



C'mon ,man.  Yes or no.  Can you sin in Heaven?


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> The Christian/AA split in here is pretty even.  The issue isn't that you were outnumbered, it's that you went into an area where Christians are split amongst themselves.
> 
> The freewill/predes debate happens all over this sub forum and the spiritual subforum above.



If the God of the Bible exists, then according to the words as they are written, without any crazy mental loopdey loops, there is only predestination.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> If the God of the Bible exists, then according to the words as they are written, without any crazy mental loopdey loops, there is only predestination.



You say that with the certainty of an old timey preacher


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> You say that with the certainty of an old timey preacher



I don't try to interpret the words.  It says what it says.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

Honestly i have to say all yall seem very intelligent regardless of how u believe but im having a hard time following and figuring out whose christian and whose AA


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> Honestly i have to say all yall seem very intelligent regardless of how u believe but im having a hard time following and figuring out whose christian and whose AA



I'm a Christian.  

My last comment to Ambush was relevant to the fact that AA's tend to push back against any claims to certainty.  Just having a little fun with it.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I'm a Christian.
> 
> My last comment to Ambush was relevant to the fact that AA's tend to push back against any claims to certainty.  Just having a little fun with it.



Typically AA's have a scientific mind, not saying you don't, that applies to everything we look at. 

Certainty is a huge word and any time it is used, the subject it is used on should be scrutinized.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> C'mon ,man.  Yes or no.  Can you sin in Heaven?



"Therefore you shall be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Perfect means without sin right? What do u think?


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

StripeRR HunteRR said:


> Typically AA's have a scientific mind, not saying you don't, that applies to everything we look at.
> 
> Certainty is a huge word and any time it is used, the subject it is used on should be scrutinized.



On this, we agree.  And....I think Christians would be better served if we did look at our faith and beliefs with scrutiny, in fact, it is a mandate.  1 Peter 3:15.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> "Therefore you shall be perfect, as your Father in Heaven is perfect." Perfect means without sin right? What do u think?



The Bible says that you can't sin in Heaven, which means that you don't have free will, which makes you a robot.  (According to the Bible, you don't have free will on Earth either, which makes you a robot on Earth as well).


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> The Bible says that you can't sin in Heaven.



Can't, or won't?

The "no free will" side is the most logically consistent position, on that, I believe you are correct.  Not 100% certain I believe that's the way things are......but, I understand why you believe the Bible says that.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24, Ambush is an AA.  A mean one at that.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

Scripture please? Perfect by definition means entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> On this, we agree.  And....I think Christians would be better served if we did look at our faith and beliefs with scrutiny, in fact, it is a mandate.  1 Peter 3:15.



We agree further, except on the application of scrutiny. 

The world would be a lot better place if people would properly categorize faiths, beliefs, and certainties and weight them appropriately.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> Honestly i have to say all yall seem very intelligent regardless of how u believe but im having a hard time following and figuring out whose christian and whose AA


I was a Christian. Now Im not. Agnostic I think fits best.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Can't, or won't?
> 
> The "no free will" side is the most logically consistent position, on that, I believe you are correct.  Not 100% certain I believe that's the way things are......but, I understand why you believe the Bible says that.





> Can't, or won't?


Let us know when you get there


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Let us know when you get there



  I walked right into that one.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Can't, or won't?
> 
> The "no free will" side is the most logically consistent position, on that, I believe you are correct.  Not 100% certain I believe that's the way things are......but, I understand why you believe the Bible says that.




And yet you insist on clinging to your notions about free will.  I think I know where you stand on the Bible's inerrancy.  Maybe You can help the new guy with some mental loopdy loops.





howee24 said:


> Scripture please? Perfect by definition means entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings.



Lusting in your heart is a sin.  Can't even think naughty thoughts in Heaven.  Where's the free will there?


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> And yet you insist on clinging to your notions about free will.



Yes, no, maybe.  The truth is my views on the matter have evolved so much over the last few years, that I am not sure I am able to articulate it.  Or, I'm kind-of a "fence sitter" with that particular debate.   But, it has a lot to do with things that won't make a whole lotta sense to you, so the argument is irrelevant and most likely counter-productive.

The point is, I am seeking answers and am not resting on something that was force fed to me as a kid.

I grew up a die-hard free will guy.  When I first joined this forum, I was pretty dang mean about folks who didn't believe in such.  But, I listened to what they had to say, and that made a whole lotta sense too......so, who is right?  I can make a decent case either way (without too many mental acrobatics), and am just taking my time getting to where I'm going.  I'll be a lot more comfortable when I get there.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> Honestly i have to say all yall seem very intelligent regardless of how u believe but im having a hard time following and figuring out whose christian and whose AA



I'm a Christian who has lost his faith.  When I objectively view the world, I see absolutely no difference between the lives of the followers of any of the major religions.  All the things that I used to attribute to God, are equally attributed to other gods by other people.  

I see many things promised in scripture to people who are obedient to God, but I see no evidence of it being granted.  I see promises of curses for those who do not obey God's commandments, but I see no evidence of it in the world.

I am not asserting that God does not exist.  I am asserting that God is not currently actively involved in the lives of Christians.

Perhaps none of us are righteous enough according to scripture.  Perhaps God has once again abandoned His people just as He did on many occassions to the Israelites.  Maybe He just lost interest.  

I post often in the forums above and repeatedly ask for examples of ANY tangible thing that God provides Christians as a result of answered prayer that He does not provide to everyone else.  I still have no answer.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> I walked right into that one.


Seriously though "cant or wont" could be complicated. I "cant" bring myself to sin can be the same as I "wont" sin. "Cant" doesn't necessarily mean you don't have the ability to. I think. Maybe.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Seriously though "cant or wont" could be complicated.



Yes, and the answer to that question really ends the debate.  I just don't know which it is........

If we "won't," then we have an option, and free will.  If we "can't," then we are robots, and no free will.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> howee24, Ambush is an AA.  A mean one at that.




Am I mean?  I always thought of myself as direct.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Am I mean?  I always thought of myself as direct.



I just thought it was a funny thing to say


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm a Christian who has lost his faith.  When I objectively view the world, I see absolutely no difference between the lives of the followers of any of the major religions.  All the things that I used to attribute to God, are equally attributed to other gods by other people.
> 
> I see many things promised in scripture to people who are obedient to God, but I see no evidence of it being granted.  I see promises of curses for those who do not obey God's commandments, but I see no evidence of it in the world.
> 
> ...





> I still have no answer


And I don't think no matter how many times you ask will you ever get one. For all the reasons you laid out.
Another option for you though is forget all those things you don't see happening. They all come from the Bible. If they weren't in the Bible you wouldn't be looking for them to be happening. Dismiss the Bible which is what is creating your dilemma for very legitimate reasons, and just believe in God.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yes, and the answer to that question really ends the debate.  I just don't know which it is........
> 
> If we "won't," then we have an option, and free will.  If we "can't," then we are robots, and no free will.


Maybe "cant or wont" doesn't even come in to play up there.
Maybe just "doesn't" or "isn't" would be more accurate?


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Maybe just "doesn't" or "isn't" would be more accurate?



If that were so, I would have to change teams in here, can't do that, 'cause I still believe he "is."


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> If that were so, I would have to change teams in here, can't do that, 'cause I still believe he "is."


Not sure I made my point. Cant or wont would be attributed to a persons actions or non-action. Doesn't or isn't can mean there isnt any sin to cant or wont about? If that makes sense. Cant or wont can only be used if sin exists in this case. Cant sin, wont sin. Both depends on the sin being there. If there is no sin you are left with a couple of words that don't apply.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Doesn't or isn't can mean there isnt any sin to cant or wont about?



......a permissive view of heaven, or, a rejection of the existence of it?


----------



## Woodsong (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm a Christian who has lost his faith.  When I objectively view the world, I see absolutely no difference between the lives of the followers of any of the major religions.  All the things that I used to attribute to God, are equally attributed to other gods by other people.
> 
> I see many things promised in scripture to people who are obedient to God, but I see no evidence of it being granted.  I see promises of curses for those who do not obey God's commandments, but I see no evidence of it in the world.
> 
> ...



Hawgjawl,
I really appreciate your honesty and sincerity.  Too many people don't want to be real with God or with those around them.  As far as no difference in the lives of believers vs. non-believers, I think that is squarely on the shoulders of the believers failing to really and truly believe in God.  The depth of our belief is related to the depth of our surrender and the depth of our trust.  When we surrender and trust, God can move in our life.  When we exercise our freewill and refuse to surrender or trust, God can only do so much since true love requires true freewill.  We, as humans, love to be "right" all too much and we will put this self-centered desire to be "right" in front of the call to Love.  At the end of the day, all that matters is Love.  Satan loves for us to be very, very good at anything besides actually fulfilling the will of God in our life.  If we can be kept from loving with all of our heart, soul, and strength then there is no fear of us actually living in the power of Jesus.
You are right that God allows the sun to shine and the rain to fall on all people.  That could be seen as indifference or it could be seen as amazing love without condition.  God lets people run around and do their own thing and be free because love can only exist in freedom.  Unfortunately, we often let our fallen nature convince us that our happiness is best found outside the will of God, yet true freedom, true love, true contentment only occurs when we live within the will of God.
Only other thing I would add is that God's timing is not necessarily our timing.  

God loves to be wrestled with and loves questions.  

Blessings to you Hawgjawl.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> ......a permissive view of heaven, or, a rejection of the existence of it?


Im basing what Im saying on Heaven actually being there. Maybe that's what is throwing you off 
But if sin isnt there "cant sin or wont sin" doesn't exist. If humans didn't have eyes, cant see or wont see are words or concepts that wouldn't even exist.
Cant sin or wont sin can only be used if sin actually exists. If there is no such thing as sin in heaven then there is no answer because there is no question.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

Woodsong said:


> Hawgjawl,
> I really appreciate your honesty and sincerity.  Too many people don't want to be real with God or with those around them.  As far as no difference in the lives of believers vs. non-believers, I think that is squarely on the shoulders of the believers failing to really and truly believe in God.  The depth of our belief is related to the depth of our surrender and the depth of our trust.  When we surrender and trust, God can move in our life.  When we exercise our freewill and refuse to surrender or trust, God can only do so much since true love requires true freewill.  We, as humans, love to be "right" all too much and we will put this self-centered desire to be "right" in front of the call to Love.  At the end of the day, all that matters is Love.  Satan loves for us to be very, very good at anything besides actually fulfilling the will of God in our life.  If we can be kept from loving with all of our heart, soul, and strength then there is no fear of us actually living in the power of Jesus.
> You are right that God allows the sun to shine and the rain to fall on all people.  That could be seen as indifference or it could be seen as amazing love without condition.  God lets people run around and do their own thing and be free because love can only exist in freedom.  Unfortunately, we often let our fallen nature convince us that our happiness is best found outside the will of God, yet true freedom, true love, true contentment only occurs when we live within the will of God.
> Only other thing I would add is that God's timing is not necessarily our timing.
> ...





> As far as no difference in the lives of believers vs. non-believers, I think that is squarely on the shoulders of the believers failing to really and truly believe in God.


Or because the good or bad of what happens in life happens regardless of which or any god you believe in.


----------



## Madman (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> The Bible says that you can't sin in Heaven,



Morning Ambush.

I missed that in the Bible can you direct me to it?


----------



## 660griz (Dec 10, 2013)

Madman said:


> I missed that in the Bible can you direct me to it?



http://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-sin.html


----------



## Madman (Dec 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> http://www.gotquestions.org/heaven-sin.html



So it does not say we "cannot sin" it says "there will not be any sin".

That is what I remembered too.  Thanks.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 10, 2013)

Madman said:


> So it does not say we "cannot sin" it says "there will not be any sin".
> 
> That is what I remembered too.  Thanks.



Not so sure. 
Then I found this.
Since “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), the promise of no more death is a promise of no more sin. Those who will never die can never sin, since sinners always die.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

[/QUOTE]Lusting in your heart is a sin.  Can't even think naughty thoughts in Heaven.  Where's the free will there?[/QUOTE]
If you cant give me scripture to back up your statements you have no point here.


----------



## Madman (Dec 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Not so sure.
> Then I found this.
> Since “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23), the promise of no more death is a promise of no more sin. Those who will not sin in heaven   since sinners always die. (but some are redeemed)



There fixed it.

That's a whole other thread. If you want we can take that one somewhere else.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm a Christian who has lost his faith.  When I objectively view the world, I see absolutely no difference between the lives of the followers of any of the major religions.  All the things that I used to attribute to God, are equally attributed to other gods by other people.
> 
> I see many things promised in scripture to people who are obedient to God, but I see no evidence of it being granted.  I see promises of curses for those who do not obey God's commandments, but I see no evidence of it in the world.
> 
> ...



I cant speak for anyone else but here is my evidence. God pulled me out of a very dark place full of self destruction and chaos. I was a drug addict for about eleven years until God delivered me from it and restored my life. It took a lot of work to get to where i am now but its all by the grace of God. He set me off to myself for over a year pretty much secluded from the whole world and just when i was about ready to give up He sent these three into my life. I havent been the same since and they are the best thing thats ever happened to me. God is working in our lives each and everyday. Though it gets rough at times we are blessed more than we will ever deserve


----------



## Madman (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I cant speak for anyone else but here is my evidence. God pulled me out of a very dark place full of self destruction and chaos. I was a drug addict for about eleven years until God delivered me from it and restored my life. It took a lot of work to get to where i am now but its all by the grace of God. He set me off to myself for over a year pretty much secluded from the whole world and just when i was about ready to give up He sent these three into my life. I havent been the same since and they are the best thing thats ever happened to me. God is working in our lives each and everyday. Though it gets rough at times we are blessed more than we will ever deserve



"Always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that is within you."

1 Peter 3:15


----------



## Ole Crip (Dec 10, 2013)

Sometimes silence is you greatest allie.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I cant speak for anyone else but here is my evidence. God pulled me out of a very dark place full of self destruction and chaos. I was a drug addict for about eleven years until God delivered me from it and restored my life. It took a lot of work to get to where i am now but its all by the grace of God. He set me off to myself for over a year pretty much secluded from the whole world and just when i was about ready to give up He sent these three into my life. I havent been the same since and they are the best thing thats ever happened to me. God is working in our lives each and everyday. Though it gets rough at times we are blessed more than we will ever deserve


Im not going to debate whether God did these things or you and your family did these things but I will say congrats on getting your addiction under control. It certainly isn't an easy thing to accomplish no matter who you give credit for it.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

Much obliged.


----------



## StriperrHunterr (Dec 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Im not going to debate whether God did these things or you and your family did these things but I will say congrats on getting your addiction under control. It certainly isn't an easy thing to accomplish no matter who you give credit for it.



What he said. The important thing is you're clean. Congrats.


----------



## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Im basing what Im saying on Heaven actually being there. Maybe that's what is throwing you off



Yep, it was. Thanks for clarifying.  And....



WaltL1 said:


> But if sin isnt there "cant sin or wont sin" doesn't exist. If humans didn't have eyes, cant see or wont see are words or concepts that wouldn't even exist.
> Cant sin or wont sin can only be used if sin actually exists. If there is no such thing as sin in heaven then there is no answer because there is no question.



....that would be correct, and falls in line with what madman is saying, I think.


----------



## Madman (Dec 10, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> Yep, it was. Thanks for clarifying.  And....
> 
> 
> 
> ....that would be correct, and falls in line with what madman is saying, I think.



Yes, and WaltL1 to the the extent of your quote "But if sin isnt there "cant sin or wont sin" doesn't exist." we agree.  There will be no sin.  Just as in the beginning there was no sin  on Earth.  "Through one man sin entered the world...."


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> I cant speak for anyone else but here is my evidence. God pulled me out of a very dark place full of self destruction and chaos. I was a drug addict for about eleven years until God delivered me from it and restored my life. It took a lot of work to get to where i am now but its all by the grace of God. He set me off to myself for over a year pretty much secluded from the whole world and just when i was about ready to give up He sent these three into my life. I havent been the same since and they are the best thing thats ever happened to me. God is working in our lives each and everyday. Though it gets rough at times we are blessed more than we will ever deserve



Its inspiring to hear the testimony of people who have overcome vices and risen from the consequences of bad decisions.  I find this type of testimony from followers of many different religions.  Many people overcome similar situations through psychological counseling which does not incorporate any religious beliefs nor any supernatural intervention.  No matter what label someone attaches to the motivation and strength behind the recovery, it is a good thing.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 10, 2013)

Madman said:


> There fixed it.
> 
> That's a whole other thread. If you want we can take that one somewhere else.



Got it from Here so, you may want to let them know about their error.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

Well i guess you can talk yourself out of anything if you try hard enough


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

Lusting in your heart is a sin.  Can't even think naughty thoughts in Heaven.  Where's the free will there?[/QUOTE]
If you cant give me scripture to back up your statements you have no point here.[/QUOTE]

Matt 5:28


----------



## Madman (Dec 10, 2013)

660griz said:


> Got it from Here so, you may want to let them know about their error.



Show it to me in Scripture.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> Well i guess you can talk yourself out of anything if you try hard enough



Just answer the question.  Can you sin in heaven?


----------



## 660griz (Dec 10, 2013)

Madman said:


> Show it to me in Scripture.



I provided the link with links to scriptures. "You can lead a horse to water..."


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

ambush80 said:


> Just answer the question.  Can you sin in heaven?


What u quoted me from was to hawg jawl. As for your question all i can tell you is what the Bible states. Although i believe its already been answered a few times.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> What u quoted me from was to hawg jawl. As for your question all i can tell you is what the Bible states. Although i believe its already been answered a few times.



I'm sorry, I'm not clear on exactly what you are referring to.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 10, 2013)

howee24 said:


> Well i guess you can talk yourself out of anything if you try hard enough


This.


----------



## Madman (Dec 11, 2013)

660griz said:


> I provided the link with links to scriptures. "You can lead a horse to water..."



and that is not what the Scripture says.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 11, 2013)

Scripture says: 
“There will be *no more death *or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Revelation 21:4)

AND
Scripture says:
the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23)

That makes; "if ya can't die, ya can't sin." a true statement.


----------



## Madman (Dec 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> Scripture says:
> “There will be *no more death *or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away” (Revelation 21:4)
> 
> AND
> ...



It REALLY is true!  Without the help of the Holy Spirit you cannot interpret  Scripture.


----------



## 660griz (Dec 12, 2013)

Madman said:


> It REALLY is true!  Without the help of the Holy Spirit you cannot interpret  Scripture.



I knew the only options were, "Wow, there it is" or "You are not interpreting it correctly". Since, "wow, there it is", has never happened...well. 

There you go atheist. Can't discuss bible verses anymore. We surely don't have the holy spirit.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 12, 2013)

Madman said:


> It REALLY is true!  Without the help of the Holy Spirit you cannot interpret  Scripture.


So how do you explain all the different interpretations among Christians? Does the Holy spirit help some Christians but not other Christians? Or only help up to a point and leave the final interpretation up to them? Why write in a way that requires help to understand it? I know the answers aren't in the back of the book so how do those who get it wrong or right know? Are there actual correct interpretations and what/where are they?
When you regurgitate these "feel good" answers that answer nothing and only cause more questions the only one that gets anything out of it is you personally.
If you are going to participate in this Forum we are going to ask for a little more than feel good statements. Funny thing about A/As is they don't just say "oh ok sure you said it so it must be true".


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 12, 2013)

660griz said:


> I knew the only options were, "Wow, there it is" or "You are not interpreting it correctly". Since, "wow, there it is", has never happened...well.
> 
> There you go atheist. Can't discuss bible verses anymore. We surely don't have the holy spirit.


If it wasn't so ridiculous it would be hilarious. Maybe its both.


----------



## howee24 (Dec 13, 2013)




----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 13, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> So how do you explain all the different interpretations among Christians? Does the Holy spirit help some Christians but not other Christians? Or only help up to a point and leave the final interpretation up to them? Why write in a way that requires help to understand it? I know the answers aren't in the back of the book so how do those who get it wrong or right know? Are there actual correct interpretations and what/where are they?
> When you regurgitate these "feel good" answers that answer nothing and only cause more questions the only one that gets anything out of it is you personally.
> If you are going to participate in this Forum we are going to ask for a little more than feel good statements. Funny thing about A/As is they don't just say "oh ok sure you said it so it must be true".




That's easy. He only helps REAL Christians.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> That's easy. He only helps REAL Christians.



And like I pointed our earlier on this thread, no matter which group of believers is actually right, the members of the "right" group are obviously all in agreement because they are being led by the Holy Spirit.  

Since no single group of believers, in complete agreement with each other over doctrinal issues, makes up even 10% of the population with religious affiliation, over 90% of the religious population must be wrong.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> ... over 90% of the religious population must be wrong.



"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." -- Matt. 7:14


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2013)

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2013)

> "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." -- Matt. 7:14





> 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.


Translation - Don't know the answers to your questions so I'll throw out some scripture that doesn't answer your questions either in an attempt to avoid them.
I am trying to understand this -
Quote:


> Originally Posted by HawgJawl View Post
> Since no single group of believers, in complete agreement with each other over doctrinal issues, makes up even 10% of the population with religious affiliation, over 90% of the religious population must be wrong.





> "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." -- Matt. 7:14


Few who find it means much less than the majority. The vast majority get their understanding from someone who taught them. So the vast majority of these people who want to devote their life to God get the short end of the stick because the person (preacher, etc) wasn't on the "got it right" list?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Translation - Don't know the answers to your questions so I'll throw out some scripture that doesn't answer your questions either in an attempt to avoid them.



Matt. 7:14 is spot on.  I didn't see any questions, but I haven't been following this one too closely.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Dec 16, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Few who find it means much less than the majority. The vast majority get their understanding from someone who taught them. So the vast majority of these people who want to devote their life to God get the short end of the stick because the person (preacher, etc) wasn't on the "got it right" list?



Sounds about right... So you must believe, you must not question... but if you don't happen to hear the right people's interpretation and you don't follow it just right.... you lose...


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it." -- Matt. 7:14



How would one know if they had found the narrow way?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How would one know if they had found the narrow way?



I know that:

" ... he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebr. 11:6


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How would one know if they had found the narrow way?


They wouldn't. And nobody has the ability to tell you why. Its simply one of the flaws in the "story". You are supposed to ignore it and not question it. You have to. If you get in the habit of questioning instead of ignoring, the whole thing starts coming apart.
Its how many A/As are made. Myself included.
Its the reason you always hear "man cannot understand..." Its a comfortable way to ignore.


----------



## drippin' rock (Dec 16, 2013)

Ever wonder if ALL those preachers out there in the thousands of churches were REALLY called to preach?  Why the need for 100s of churches with 15 to 20 people on Sunday morning?  Why not less preachers in bigger more centralized locations, preaching a uniform message?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> If you get in the habit of questioning instead of ignoring, the whole thing starts coming apart.  Its how many A/As are made. Myself included.



If you get in the habit of questioning instead of ignoring, the whole thing starts coming apart.  Its how many Christians are made.  Lee Strobel included.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> If you get in the habit of questioning instead of ignoring, the whole thing starts coming apart.  Its how many Christians are made.  Lee Strobel included.


I'll be honest. Throwing out the name of Lee Strobel means exactly zilch to me. Same as Dawkins or anybody else. I use my own brain. Throwing out a name does nothing to address the subject at hand.
That was the question -


> Originally Posted by HawgJawl View Post
> How would one know if they had found the narrow way?


I gave my opinion from my own brain through what I have observed.
From your response -


> I know that:
> 
> " ... he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebr. 11:6


It would seem Lee Strobel didn't have the answer either.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> I'll be honest. Throwing out the name of Lee Strobel means exactly zilch to me. Same as Dawkins or anybody else. I use my own brain. Throwing out a name does nothing to address the subject at hand.
> That was the question -
> 
> I gave my opinion from my own brain through what I have observed.
> ...



Lee Strobel was an atheist who used his own brain and became a Christian.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 16, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> Lee Strobel was an atheist who used his own brain and became a Christian.


Yes I know exactly who he is. 
And so?
Are you suggesting that proves he doesn't ignore contradictions about the "story"?


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 16, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Are you suggesting that proves he doesn't ignore contradictions about the "story"?



I'm suggesting that questioning often leads people _toward_ Christianity rather than away from it.


----------



## bullethead (Dec 16, 2013)

How many Pastors have switched from Christianity or have even gone so far as to become an Atheist?

I know that you know I already have a list so we don't have to go through that whole tap dance...but I think it lends credit to why not just Christians but Christian leaders also use their brain and questions to distance themselves.


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm suggesting that questioning often leads people _toward_ Christianity rather than away from it.


Same question but change he to they -


> Are you suggesting that proves he doesn't ignore contradictions about the "story"?


We can go round and round but it wont change that the contradictions in fact exist. We were talking about one of them before we went off on a tangent about Lee Strobel.
And its not a minor contradiction. Its a contradiction that says you can devote your life to God and still end up making smores by the fire because through no fault of their own they weren't taught by someone who "got it right". There is something wrong with that story. You can ignore it and move on or you can question why that is. An example would be why your answer didn't actually address his specific question. Another contradiction would be you can earnestly seek him but still not be one of the few who find the narrow way -


> Originally Posted by HawgJawl View Post
> How would one know if they had found the narrow way?





> I know that:
> 
> " ... he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebr. 11:6


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> And like I pointed our earlier on this thread, no matter which group of believers is actually right, the members of the "right" group are obviously all in agreement because they are being led by the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Since no single group of believers, in complete agreement with each other over doctrinal issues, makes up even 10% of the population with religious affiliation, over 90% of the religious population must be wrong.



My answer to this specific question is: It's not your indoctrination or Bible knowledge that Jesus is after. He is after your heart. It's a matter of your heart. Matthew 7:14 isn't addressing the 90% who went to the wrong Church denomination or one's indoctrination. Matthew 7:14 is addressing the 90% who have it wrong in their heart. Verse 15 & 16 addresses people who tell you differently and how to spot them. In other words "actions speak louder than words." 
Doctrinal knowledge is great but it doesn't make you Christian. Verse 15 & 16 tells you how to spot them. 
God's law is written in our hearts already.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Same question but change he to they -
> 
> We can go round and round but it wont change that the contradictions in fact exist. We were talking about one of them before we went off on a tangent about Lee Strobel.
> And its not a minor contradiction. Its a contradiction that says you can devote your life to God and still end up making smores by the fire because through no fault of their own they weren't taught by someone who "got it right". There is something wrong with that story. You can ignore it and move on or you can question why that is. An example would be why your answer didn't actually address his specific question. Another contradiction would be you can earnestly seek him but still not be one of the few who find the narrow way -



I see many contradictions in the Bible and see nothing wrong with addressing them and studying them. 
I don't believe everything is as cut & dry as some make it out to be.
I do believe Jesus is the only path to salvation, not what Church you attend. I do not support Church Creeds for this reason.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I know that:
> 
> " ... he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebr. 11:6



Throughout the Bible, there are many, many scriptures promising blessings here on earth to those who are obedient to God along with curses for those who are not obedient to God.

The blessings that pertain to tangible things would be observable and measurable and could serve as a means to help identify the people who "have it right".  It is clearly not a black and white issue but there should be enough variance in population averages to note a difference.

Do you believe that this is true?


----------



## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I see many contradictions in the Bible and see nothing wrong with addressing them and studying them.
> I don't believe everything is as cut & dry as some make it out to be.
> I do believe Jesus is the only path to salvation, not what Church you attend. I do not support Church Creeds for this reason.





> I see many contradictions in the Bible and see nothing wrong with addressing them and studying them.


Is there a number of contradictions in your mind that you would have to reach to question the entire story in the Bible?
Or regardless of how many, "studying" is as far as you are going to go?
Whats your (please no scripture) opinion of why these contradictions exist?
And Im not asking so I can debate you.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> We can go round and round but it wont change that the contradictions in fact exist. We were talking about one of them before we went off on a tangent about Lee Strobel.
> And its not a minor contradiction. Its a contradiction that says you can devote your life to God and still end up making smores by the fire because through no fault of their own they weren't taught by someone who "got it right".



I wouldn't call that a "contradiction" but ... whatever floats your kayak.


----------



## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Throughout the Bible, there are many, many scriptures promising blessings here on earth to those who are obedient to God along with curses for those who are not obedient to God.
> 
> The blessings that pertain to tangible things would be observable and measurable and could serve as a means to help identify the people who "have it right".  It is clearly not a black and white issue but there should be enough variance in population averages to note a difference.
> 
> Do you believe that this is true?



No.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How would one know if they had found the narrow way?



Then what did you mean by this answer to the above question?



centerpin fan said:


> I know that:
> 
> " ... he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebr. 11:6


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Then what did you mean by this answer to the above question?



That God looks at the heart:

But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” -- 1 Samuel 16:7


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## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I wouldn't call that a "contradiction" but ... whatever floats your kayak.


Ok we'll end it there.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> That God looks at the heart:
> 
> But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” -- 1 Samuel 16:7



Okay...
But the question was how would one know if they had found the narrow way.


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## 660griz (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Okay...
> But the question was how would one know if they had found the narrow way.



Lack of flames, lake of fire, etc.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

660griz said:


> Lack of flames, lake of fire, etc.



I was hoping for an indication prior to death, while there is still time to find the "right" narrow path.


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## 660griz (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I was hoping for an indication prior to death, while there is still time to find the "right" narrow path.



I don't think it is possible. 

Need some holy spirit help but, I think this means he is confusing on purpose. Wouldn't want you to understand and go to heaven. 

4:10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.  
4:11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:  
4:12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Is there a number of contradictions in your mind that you would have to reach to question the entire story in the Bible?
> Or regardless of how many, "studying" is as far as you are going to go?
> Whats your (please no scripture) opinion of why these contradictions exist?
> And Im not asking so I can debate you.



That number would be 36.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

WaltL1 said:


> Is there a number of contradictions in your mind that you would have to reach to question the entire story in the Bible?
> Or regardless of how many, "studying" is as far as you are going to go?
> Whats your (please no scripture) opinion of why these contradictions exist?
> And Im not asking so I can debate you.



Seriously, I don't know if there is a number. I feel they exist because man had a hand in writing the Bible. 
That in itself is a contradiction. Some say "if the Bible has but one mistake, then none of it could be true."


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## WaltL1 (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Seriously, I don't know if there is a number. I feel they exist because man had a hand in writing the Bible.
> That in itself is a contradiction. Some say "if the Bible has but one mistake, the none of it could be true."


Thanks for the honest answers.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I was hoping for an indication prior to death, while there is still time to find the "right" narrow path.



As I've said in other threads, if you're waiting for that "burning bush" moment, you're gonna be disappointed.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> As I've said in other threads, if you're waiting for that "burning bush" moment, you're gonna be disappointed.



I'm not looking for a burning bush.  Just ANY observable and measurable blessing like the ones promised in scripture.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not looking for a burning bush.  Just ANY observable and measurable blessing like the ones promised in scripture.



I'm sure you have more than one.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm sure you have more than one.



I'm looking for one that applies to those who have found the "right" narrow path.

Example:  This group of like-minded believers are statistically less likely to be the victim of violent crime.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm looking for one that applies to those who have found the "right" narrow path.



You will know them by their fruits.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm not looking for a burning bush.  Just ANY observable and measurable blessing like the ones promised in scripture.



You will only see these blessing in the 10% of the population. 
I wonder if you could find your proof 100 or 500 years ago when the Christian population was more like 50%. If you could find our what year in time had the highest Christian population. It must have been a small percentage that increased through the years to the high mark and ha now dwindled down to 10%.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

This is what you said before, so I thought we might could identify them by those rewards.



centerpin fan said:


> I know that:
> 
> " ... he rewards those who earnestly seek him." -- Hebr. 11:6



So, lets try to identify them by their fruits.



centerpin fan said:


> You will know them by their fruits.



Since all religious groups can boast of some type of fruit, tell me specifically what to look for from the group that has found the "right" narrow way.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> This is what you said before, so I thought we might could identify them by those rewards.
> 
> So, lets try to identify them by their fruits.
> 
> Since all religious groups can boast of some type of fruit, tell me specifically what to look for from the group that has found the "right" narrow way.




"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." -- Gal. 5:22-23


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You will only see these blessing in the 10% of the population.
> I wonder if you could find your proof 100 or 500 years ago when the Christian population was more like 50%. If you could find our what year in time had the highest Christian population. It must have been a small percentage that increased through the years to the high mark and ha now dwindled down to 10%.



In truth it would probably be much smaller than 10%.

This is from all the way back at post #51.



HawgJawl said:


> I was raised Southern Baptist so let’s see just how common this religious tradition is.
> 
> There are many religions worldwide with over two-thirds of the world population affiliating with a religious group other than Christianity.  In America, the largest religious group within Christianity is Evangelical Protestant, however 73.7% of American adults hold beliefs other than Evangelical Protestant.  Among the 26.3% of Americans who affiliate with Evangelical Christian Churches, over 58% are affiliated with a tradition other than Evangelical Baptist.  Of the 10.8% of American adults who affiliate with the Evangelical Baptist tradition, over one-third affiliate with churches other than the Southern Baptist Convention.  The Southern Baptist Convention represents only 6.7% of American adults.
> 
> ...


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law." -- Gal. 5:22-23



So, you're saying that Buddhists have it "right"?


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So, you're saying that Buddhists have it "right"?



No, I'm saying that, for the people who have faith in Christ, you will know them for their fruits.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

centerpin fan said:


> No, I'm saying that, for the people who have faith in Christ, you will know them for their fruits.



Well I admit that I'm unable to identify the group of like-minded believers who have found the "right" narrow gate, but since you say that you have a way to know who they are, please let us all know so that we can join the "right" group and go to heaven.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Well I admit that I'm unable to identify the group of like-minded believers who have found the "right" narrow gate, but since you say that you have a way to know who they are, please let us all know so that we can join the "right" group and go to heaven.



I'm Orthodox.  We say, "We can say where the Spirit is, but we cannot say where He is not."

Good luck on your journey.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Well I admit that I'm unable to identify the group of like-minded believers who have found the "right" narrow gate, but since you say that you have a way to know who they are, please let us all know so that we can join the "right" group and go to heaven.



There is a large group of Christians that say all you have to do is Believe. It's even called "Easy Believeism." 
It's also called "OSAS."
They are always 100% sure they are going to Heaven but never know if anyone else is going even tho the gate is narrow. They always produce the required fruits. 
Although I do believe the gate is narrow, I don't believe Salvation is for a select few of like minded believers. Not for a select few who think they have it figured out. Salvation is not just for believers of the Trinity, Election, Grace only, pre-millennial,  etc. etc. 
It must be a really narrow gate because I don't see much evidence of people with this fruit. Maybe in other countries it is more evident.


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 18, 2013)

But you have the fruit?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> But you have the fruit?



I have some but not enough for assurance.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> But you have the fruit?



No ... the power!


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 18, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I have some but not enough for assurance.



Does that mean you're not assured of your own salvation?


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Does that mean you're not assured of your own salvation?



Yes, that is correct.


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## TripleXBullies (Dec 18, 2013)

Wow.. I'm surprised you'd admit that. In my old opinion, that would mean you don't have it. A refreshing response though.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2013)

TripleXBullies said:


> Wow.. I'm surprised you'd admit that. In my old opinion, that would mean you don't have it. A refreshing response though.



Most Christians would agree assurance is a vital part of salvation. It's part of most religions to assure it's followers some form of assurance. 
I would agree with the following.

By John G. Reisinger
The doctrine of Assurance of Salvation has been the subject of both confusion and controversy down through the years. Actually, it goes all the way back to the New Testament times. The question, "Can I really be sure I am going to heaven?" has been given a variety of answers. Some have not only said yes, but have gone a step farther and taught that you must be sure or else you do not really have faith in Christ. At the other extreme, men have not only answered with an emphatic "No!" but have earnestly contended that any form of assurance of salvation was a dangerous delusion of the devil. In between these two positions have been the many forms of 'maybe' which were attended by many 'ifs' and 'buts' that tended to nullify each other. I personally think this is one of the most misunderstood doctrines of our generation.

The doctrine of "eternal security" is not assurance, it is insurance for graceless professors. Today everybody and his brother is sure they are going to heaven regardless of how they think or act. They made a decision and were given the assurance that they were truly saved. We call this "easy-believism." The root cause of this error grows out of the strong desire of every religious group to have a method of manufacturing believers.

http://www.gracesermons.com/robbeeee/assurance.html

FALSE ASSURANCE

    Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’ (Matthew 7:21–23)

How can anyone read this verse and have assurance. Most of us don't even know what the will of the Father is, much less do it.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Most Christians would agree assurance is a vital part of salvation. It's part of most religions to assure it's followers some form of assurance.
> I would agree with the following.
> 
> By John G. Reisinger
> ...



Thanks for posting this down here Art.

I think there are some folks who stay down here in the "basement" and don't see what you regularly post three floors up.

When I challenge someone's unorthodox assertions "upstairs", no matter how many Christians secretly agree with me (based upon their beliefs professed in other threads), you're the only one who supports any of my statements or at least the validity of my questions.

Thank you for that.


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