# Why do I have to fund your mission trip / VACATION??



## dawg2

Help me out with this one.

My wife and I get letters occasionally from people we know asking for donations.  These people want to go on a mission trip.  The ones we have been getting are for destinations in Latin America.

Rub #1:  Why do they ask for us to help fund their trip?  They aren't asking for money to help the mission, they are asking for money to pay their airfare and expenses to go there.

Example:  The latest letter I got asks for donations towards a $1,500 goal.  Airfare is $1,200 so I am guessing the remaining amount pays for food/expenses.

Rub #2:  They don't speak the language.  What benefit do they bring to the table if they can't even talk to the people in their native tongue?  

Rub#3:  Why don't they fund their own airfare and expenses and use the donations to help with the mission?


I just have an issue with donating towards what I see as a vacation.  Before anybody tries to lecture me on Latin America, I am well versed on the area since I have both lived and worked ain Latin America.  I have always tried to do something "extra" while there to help out.  But I just don't see how a group of Americans who don't know the culture, customs, language, etc. are going to fly down there and make a difference by "being there" on someone else's dime.


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## NCHillbilly

I agree, and furthermore, I don't see why they want to go down there to begin with. An inlaw of my family got shot by road-blocking robbers while on one of those mission trip vacations to Honduras and nearly died.


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## dawg2

NCHillbilly said:


> I agree, and furthermore, I don't see why they want to go down there to begin with. An inlaw of my family got shot by road-blocking robbers while on one of those mission trip vacations to Honduras and nearly died.



That is an issue as well.  They don't know the area.  They are generally going into impoverished parts of the country an don't have a clue.

Why not take that money and get some American kids fed or taken care of?  Why don't we take care of our backyard FIRST??

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/08/25/where-americas-children-are-going-hungry/

http://www.nccp.org/media/releases/release_136.html

http://blogs.reuters.com/felix-salmon/2011/11/18/child-poverty-charts-of-the-day/


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## formula1

*Re:*

If you don't like it, don't support it.  Just say no thank you and move on.  Simple solution! I would do the same if I had the same questions as you.  

But I don't!  God bless!


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## dawg2

formula1 said:


> If you don't like it, don't support it.  Just say no thank you and move on.  Simple solution! I would do the same if I had the same questions as you.
> 
> But I don't!  God bless!


That is what I do.  But my point is I would be more inclined to help if I wasn't funding their vacation.  Maybe if they spoke the language and used the funding towards helping the people instead of using it as their free-ride I would assist.


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## JustUs4All

Even though I am sure they mean well, I firmly believe that those sorts of missions are more about having the missionaries feel good than about actually doing good.  

In reality there is little bang for the buck invested in the mission.  There are a similar missions that make a lot of sense, ie. doctors, nurses, and dentists doing clinics.


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## dawg2

JustUs4All said:


> Even though I am sure they mean well, I firmly believe that those sorts of missions are more about having the missionaries feel good than about actually doing good.
> 
> In reality there is little bang for the buck invested in the mission.  There are a similar missions that make a lot of sense, ie. doctors, nurses, and dentists doing clinics.


Exactly my point.  The two people I am talking about bring nothing to the table except a pretty face.  No technical skills, no language, no engineering skills, no cultural advantage, etc.  I just don't understand 

I am sure they mean well, but it is wasted $$$.  If they want to feel good, then they should make a personal sacrifice, get another job, give up something to save their airfare and collect money to take down there and help.


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## JB0704

A church I used to attend used to take several of these trips a year.  Each trip was advertised in a way where the potential participants were "sold" on the idea based on the perks, such as sightseeing, etc.

For the men, the most popular trip was always Alaska.  The fishing was the big seller there.  Israel was also a popular destination, complete with fully guided holy land tours.  Egypt hit high on the map as well.  Much of the time on these trips was devoted to sightseeing and recreation.

However, there was also a Cuba trip, which was miserable for everybody involved.  This was heavy duty mission work, and good things were done. No fishing, not much to see.  Just hot, miserable, and infested with bugs and stench.  I raised money for folks who went there.  It was good work.

I think it is a balance, and a personal preference as to whether or not you (pl) choose to support it.  I, unfortunately, always have a "horse apples" radar turned on, and am suspicious of most folks raising money in the name of Jesus.


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## JB0704

JustUs4All said:


> Even though I am sure they mean well, I firmly believe that those sorts of missions are more about having the missionaries feel good than about actually doing good.



Bingo.

There are a lot of local communities in need, where dollars could stretch a lot farther.  Or, if the folks just sent the money to local contacts at the overseas destinations, more "good" could be done instead of paying for airfare, hotels, transportation, etc.


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## gtparts

If you have an issue against such giving, please, do not do it. 

It encourages people to get out of their comfort zone, to see the great need one will almost never see at home from their Lazy-Boy. They are almost always convicted of how they have been incredibly blessed and how they may have squandered those blessings. They tend to become more outspoken about missions, specifically and generally. 

There presence is encouraging to those called to those countries as full and part-time missionaries, as well as those that are being ministered to directly. Doctors, dentists, nurses, and many others will not change the lives of people beyond the ones they heal and repair physically, the ones given fresh, clean drinking water, or the ones they lead to Christ. It is not an investment in the Kingdom of God. Ultimately, it will only serve to impoverish you.

Yes, loving others as Christ loves us is really more of a suggestion than a command. 

Now, I am not insinuating that you don't love others, but it seems you're a little more concerned about your wallet than the lost.

Can you give in other ways? 

Absolutely!! I am sure you do,but... why post such a negative, disparaging message to those who are willing to go but lack the funds?

Sure, there are those who could pay their own way, but there are those who can't go and they participate in missions by financing the mission work of others. And there is no doubt that some mission trips allow for some touring and recreation, but it is rarely a vacation. Our family experience is that more work is done, more personal connections are made, more led to Christ by going. We have participated in numerous mission trips to Puerto Rico, Guatemala, and Haiti. Our daughter will make the trip to East Asia for the fifth year to work in an orphanage, to care for the children, train the care-givers, and mirror the love of Christ. She funds part, while others are afforded the opportunity and privilege to participate in that effort.

So, if you aren't led to give, please don't. God doesn't need you or your money, but He does want your heart. If He has that, you will find yourself doing things you found difficult or irritating, like asking others to support your own trip to serve God and others.


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## gtparts

One more post and I done here (on this thread).

Speaking the language and some of the other things mentioned as being desirable are not always necessary. On our trip (my wife and I, with about 11 others) last year to Haiti, we had two Haitian members of our church come with us (worked and translated Creole) and a lady from Liberia (also, a church member) who speaks French, a close cousin to Creole. Two years earlier, our Christian driver in Guatemala was bi-lingual, as well as a few others in our team.

The point is, there are ways of accomplishing things where there are issues to be overcome.

And a child being held and cared for (orphan or otherwise) knows the "language" that is spoken in that moment.


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## Huntinfool

This is possibly the most ridiculous thread I've seen in a very long time.

Good job guys.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> This is possibly the most ridiculous thread I've seen in a very long time.
> 
> Good job guys.



Good to see you poking around in here again.....whether I agree with your assessment or not.  I find it interesting that things that are of no concern to you are "ridiculous."

Anyway, this thread is less than a year old.......
http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=632538


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## dawg2

gtparts said:


> If you have an issue against such giving, please, do not do it.
> 
> It encourages people to get out of their comfort zone, to see the great need one will almost never see at home from their Lazy-Boy. They are almost always convicted of how they have been incredibly blessed and how they may have squandered those blessings. They tend to become more outspoken about missions, specifically and generally.
> ....
> 
> Now, I am not insinuating that you don't love others, but it seems you're a little more concerned about your wallet than the lost.
> 
> Can you give in other ways?
> 
> Absolutely!! I am sure you do,but... why post such a negative, disparaging message to those who are willing to go but lack the funds?Sure, there are those who could pay their own way, but there are those who can't go and they participate in missions by financing the mission work of others. And there is no doubt that some mission trips allow for some touring and recreation, but it is rarely a vacation. Our family experience is that more work is done, more personal connections are made, more led to Christ by going. We have participated in numerous mission trips to Puerto Rico, Guatemala, and Haiti. Our daughter will make the trip to East Asia for the fifth year to work in an orphanage, to care for the children, train the care-givers, and mirror the love of Christ. She funds part, while others are afforded the opportunity and privilege to participate in that effort.
> 
> So, if you aren't led to give, please don't. God doesn't need you or your money, but He does want your heart. If He has that, you will find yourself doing things you found difficult or irritating, like asking others to support your own trip to serve God and others.


It is not a "my wallet" situation.  I am more than happy (and do) donate to what I see as an effort that brings something to the people who need it.  Sure, I agree people need to get out of their comfort zone.  But the 2 in particular (totally unrelated people with different churches) are not bringing anything tangible to the table.  The only thing they bring are two smiling faces with no skills to assist other than moral support.  

Not being callous, but the message of Christ hit the shores of Latin America around 1492, and continues until present day.   I know there are mission trips that are worthwhile, but I see many as an opportunity to have someone else fund their vacation.  I do not and will not support those.



Huntinfool said:


> This is possibly the most ridiculous thread I've seen in a very long time.
> 
> Good job guys.


How so?  So are you saying you fund anyone asking for money who goes on a "mission trip?"


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## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> Good to see you poking around in here again.....whether I agree with your assessment or not.  I find it interesting that things that are of no concern to you are "ridiculous."
> 
> Anyway, this thread is less than a year old.......
> http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=632538




The topic is actually of great concern to me.  The reaction that christians are giving in this thread make it ridiculous.


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## dawg2

Huntinfool said:


> The topic is actually of great concern to me.  The reaction that christians are giving in this thread make it ridiculous.


Can you elaborate?


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## Ronnie T

JustUs4All said:


> Even though I am sure they mean well, I firmly believe that those sorts of missions are more about having the missionaries feel good than about actually doing good.
> 
> In reality there is little bang for the buck invested in the mission.  There are a similar missions that make a lot of sense, ie. doctors, nurses, and dentists doing clinics.



Unfortunately, I think you're right.  They don't mean to do it, but in too many cases the trips don't accomplish very much.


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## jmharris23

On a very honest level dawg, I am struggling with how to respond to this thread because I see the truth that's been represented in both sides of this argument. 

On a personal note, I will say this. Our church is sending a group to Peru this year. I wanted to go, but with the recent addition of my three adopted children I was financially unable to commit.

I had a fellow who offered to pay for my trip, but I didn't feel right about taking his money. I didn't feel right because I was forced to choose between taking my family on vacation or going on the mission trip and not taking a vacation. I didn't feel right saying " I am going to PC beach on my dime and I'll go to Peru on yours." 

That said, while Peru has been influenced by the gospel, I don't feel like its a waste of time or money for these people to go. They are going to serve a school there by teaching, loving, and some minor construction. 

If someone had the money and wanted to support them, I wouldn't call it a waste nor a vacation. I've been on several mission trips, and none of them were a vacation. 

Anyways, I appreciated your honesty, so I wanted to share my own thoughts.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> The topic is actually of great concern to me.  The reaction that christians are giving in this thread make it ridiculous.



If you will notice, there are very thoughtful responses from both sides.  Jump in, make your case.  

I have thought the same things Dawg is saying many times, as I have recieved fundraising letters.  Some I support, some I don't.  Each mission is taken on it's merits.

But, I promise you, many of these trips are glorified vacations.  Not all, or even a majority, but many. I gave a few examples from both sides.


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## Huntinfool

> So are you saying you fund anyone asking for money who goes on a "mission trip?"



Some....yes.

_Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” _

At least they are willing to go....

As others have said, you don't HAVE to fund anything if you don't want to.  But, if you're not willing to help others spread the gospel, you better darn well be doing it yourself.

Speaking the native language has absolutely nothing to do with the effectiveness of a short-term missionary.  The gospel can, has and will continue to be spread throughout the world very effectively by people who neither speak spanish nor swahili.

It's fine if you want to judge the motive of the trip.  If fishing is the primary activity, then I wouldn't support it either.

Airfare is cleary the the biggest cost invovled in most of these trips.  Those who desire to go many times can't afford to pay the entire cost themselves so they ask other followers of Christ to participate in the trip with them financially.  You don't have to support it.  But don't complain when others are willing to "go" in your stead.

They aren't asking for money to help the mission because THEY are helping the mission.  They just need to get there and they are asking if God has laid it on your heart to help.


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## JB0704

jmharris23 said:


> That said, while Peru has been influenced by the gospel, I don't feel like its a waste of time or money for these people to go. They are going to serve a school there by teaching, loving, and some minor construction..



I know some very good folks who are full time missionaries in Peru.  Sold out, doing good work.  There life is nothing like a vacation, for sure.

But, when you have a man catching a Salmon on the cover of an Alaskan mission trip brochure, one has to wonder.....


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> They just need to get there and they are asking if God has laid it on your heart to help.



I honestly mean this....I wish I trusted people as much as you do.


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## JB0704

Maybe if a prospective missionary would make the case as to why he could accomplish more with the funds personally than sending the funds directly to another contact....or, what is the net benefit of sending "me" as opposed to supporting "them?"


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## Huntinfool

> I honestly mean this....I wish I trusted people as much as you do.



Me too brother.


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## Huntinfool

JB0704 said:


> Maybe if a prospective missionary would make the case as to why he could accomplish more with the funds personally than sending the funds directly to another contact....or, what is the net benefit of sending "me" as opposed to supporting "them?"



A tax collector
A murderer and former Pharisee
Several fishermen

These are the qualifications of the men that Jesus FIRST sent out to spread the gospel to the world.

You don't have to be highly qualified.  Of all people I would think you, with the experiences you've had with people who are "qualified", would understand that qualifications don't make you effective in spreading the gospel.

What is the benefit to them?  You tell me...what is the personal benefit to following the call of God and serving him?


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> You don't have to be highly qualified.  Of all people I would think you, with the experiences you've had with people who are "qualified", would understand that qualifications don't make you effective in spreading the gospel.?



Oh, I absolutely agree here.  My point was that a person can raise 3k to fly to a foreign land and spend 3 weeks amongst the poor and downtrodden.  Or, they can use the same 3k to support a local contact for 3 months.

I guess I was getting at results.  How far does the dollar stretch to support the mission.  Am "I" the most beneficial person to the cause?  Does that make mroe sense.



Huntinfool said:


> What is the benefit to them?  You tell me...what is the personal benefit to following the call of God and serving him?



I was looking at more of the big picture, the "cause," more than the individual going.

For me, I have found multiple ways to serve locally outside of the church. I find them all rewarding and fulfilling in the sense that I am getting things done for "the cause."  That does not mean everybody is drawn to local needs, it just means that local needs can fill the calling.

I'm getting there with judging folks' heart.  But, I know at my old church if "perks" were limited, the amount of folks signing up was also limited.

But again, the Cuba trip was the exception.  Several hard-core folks go there every year to help a local church with construction and summer programs.  That is good stuff, and I am absolutely supportive of it.


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## Huntinfool

I guess my thought would be this...

These people are using their vacation time to go do this.  Is it possible that they spread the gospel AND enjoy the benefits of the place they are going?


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## Israel

Maybe there's two different things being seen here?
Obviously...if the Lord has called an individual to go...they will be blessed in the going. And they probably won't experience rest till they do.
But suppose it is not that? Suppose one simply recognizes the benefit of the work of the gospel in an area? It doesn't always follow that any individual other than the one God chooses to go...should. Yes...a local contact might put to better use the money one may have spent simply on transportation. 
Motives always seem to be the issue. 
If God wants you to go...he will both let you know...and make a way.


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## NCHillbilly

Huntinfool said:


> Some....yes.
> 
> _Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” _
> 
> At least they are willing to go....
> 
> As others have said, you don't HAVE to fund anything if you don't want to.  But, if you're not willing to help others spread the gospel, you better darn well be doing it yourself.
> 
> Speaking the native language has absolutely nothing to do with the effectiveness of a short-term missionary.  The gospel can, has and will continue to be spread throughout the world very effectively by people who neither speak spanish nor swahili.
> 
> It's fine if you want to judge the motive of the trip.  If fishing is the primary activity, then I wouldn't support it either.
> 
> Airfare is cleary the the biggest cost invovled in most of these trips.  Those who desire to go many times can't afford to pay the entire cost themselves so they ask other followers of Christ to participate in the trip with them financially.  You don't have to support it.  But don't complain when others are willing to "go" in your stead.
> 
> They aren't asking for money to help the mission because THEY are helping the mission.  They just need to get there and they are asking if God has laid it on your heart to help.



One devil's-advocate question: If a Muslim or Hindu missionary came from Khazikstan or India and stayed in your neighborhood for a couple weeks and tried to convert you to his religion, what would his chances of success be? Or would he have maybe been better off and accomplished more by spending his plane ticket money to help feed and clothe the Muslim/Hindu children in his own country? And why do we expect people in other countries to react differently to our proselytizing than we would to theirs?


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## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> ... but with the recent addition of my three adopted children ...


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## centerpin fan

A friend of mine sent out a request very similar to the one in the OP.  I gave her some money without a second thought.  She's a great person, and the cause seemed well worth it.


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## thedeacon

Our congragation sponsers a medical/mission trip to Nicaragua at least one time a year. Like Jesus we are concerned about the people's health but our main concern is their souls.

Over the years we have established 3 working churches plus two deaf congregations. 

Brothers, these trips are not, let me repeat, they are not, vacations. We usually take at least two Doctors, 4 Parmacist, 2 dentist, 6 nurses and about 40 techs of some kind. Over the years we have brought hundred to Jesus.

Two of my Grandsons have made the trip, one of them two times. It was one of the most humbling things that they have ever experienced. We never ask anyone to help with the tickets, I paid for them. Our Church pay's for about 75% of the cost.

Sleeping on the ground for a full week inside a crude building without conditioned air does not qualify as a vacation, eating cold food out of cans because you are afraid to eat the local cooking does not sound like a vacation, boiling water to drink if you happen to run out while you are there doesn't sound like fun. We go there to teach the GOSPEL to people while they wait in waiting rooms to be treated by Doctors.

Go ye (that means us) therefore and teach all nations, baptising them in the name of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.

If I could help someone go on a bonafied mission trip would I? You better know it brother, in a New York minute.

Thats the reason our world is in such a mess now people are looking for the negative instead of trying to make things positive.

Maybe I should apoligize for being so harse but I am not because thats the way I feel.

Maybe when you get those letters you should respond and tell the person requesting help to take you off their list because you are not the kind of person that would help someone go on a mission trip.

Just my opinion.


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## j_seph

gtparts said:


> If you have an issue against such giving, please, do not do it.
> 
> It encourages people to get out of their comfort zone, to see the great need one will almost never see at home from their Lazy-Boy. They are almost always convicted of how they have been incredibly blessed and how they may have squandered those blessings. They tend to become more outspoken about missions, specifically and generally.


This first statement explains a lot to me. It is more for the ones going than the ones they are going to help. Sen them to some backwood parts of WV and they can see some harsh living or even areas of middle and south GA. Our secretary's husband and church goes on a mission trip every year to Mexico. However, they build a house for a family when they go. I asked why Mexico and not here and he said that they could build a small shack basically for near nothing compared to 10 times the price to build something that small over here, and I do mean small for a 4 person family.


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## gtparts

I just thought I was through, but following the thread has raised more questions.

1. Whose money is it anyway? Is there not more blessing available (in every way) from the One who supplies all our needs according to His riches in glory?

2. Is the attitude of some here, that somehow we should place some price on a human soul... the more expensive it is to reach lost folks, the less consideration they should receive?

3. Isn't it reasonable to believe that God is not really looking for the most "bang for His buck"? That He will accomplish what He desires, with or without us? That the blessings of giving and the blessings of service are somehow based on the our hearts rather than our actions?

Scripture tells us that if we do not have love for others, we do not love God and He doesn't truly dwell in us. And what is love for, if it doesn't motivate us to do all that we can according to His instructions? 

Hear my heart. I don't think we should be unwise stewards. I just believe that God is more interested in how we completely invested what He has entrusted to us rather than our comfort, our bank account, or our retirement.

He that plants sparingly shall reap sparingly. To whom much is given much is required. 

If you find His peace in what you do, you have found great riches and God is pleased. 

Dawg, rather than be annoyed, why not fully vet the trip, its leadership and its goals? 
It may be better to have given to the wrong effort than to have withheld from the right one.


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## gtparts

j_seph said:


> This first statement explains a lot to me. It is more for the ones going than the ones they are going to help. Sen them to some backwood parts of WV and they can see some harsh living or even areas of middle and south GA. Our secretary's husband and church goes on a mission trip every year to Mexico. However, they build a house for a family when they go. I asked why Mexico and not here and he said that they could build a small shack basically for near nothing compared to 10 times the price to build something that small over here, and I do mean small for a 4 person family.



I sincerely hope you read the entire post. The OP spoke of Latin America. That I failed to mention W.V., middle and south Georgia, parts of Philadelphia, St. Louis, or Dallas does not mean that these people are any less needy. Perhaps, if the folks writing the letters were going to one or more of those places, some would have found it more compelling to give... though I doubt it.


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## dawg2

thedeacon said:


> ....Maybe when you get those letters you should respond and tell the person requesting help to take you off their list because you are not the kind of person that would help someone go on a mission trip.
> 
> Just my opinion.



I have and I do support missions.  

But I fail to see much value in these particular ones when I don't see doctors, architects, engineers, builders, etc. on that list of participants.  What I see in these cases I mentioned above, is a trip, slapped with the label of "mission" and therefore it gets raised to a higher level.  Since it's a "mission" and you question it, then you are viewed as anti-church / God by some people...and "I am not that kind of person."


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## dawg2

gtparts said:


> I sincerely hope you read the entire post. The OP spoke of Latin America. That I failed to mention W.V., middle and south Georgia, parts of Philadelphia, St. Louis, or Dallas does not mean that these people are any less needy. Perhaps, if the folks writing the letters were going to one or more of those places, some would have found it more compelling to give... though I doubt it.



I would be more compelled to give.  One, they know the culture and language so there would be more bang for the buck, so to speak.  Two, we would be taking care of our own backyard instead of having to do missions in exotic locales because it sounds "cooler" than the "coal towns of West Virginia."


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## 1gr8bldr

I'm surprised that so many feel the same way I do. Go figure, I'm usually the odd man out. Many times, it's all for show. But I suspect that some trips may be for good. My most recent letter involved a young, respectful college girl of whom I like. But her trip was, guess where? The beach. For the summer. Now the way my mind works, I'm thinking, I'm not paying for her a summer long vacation. I'm thinking of another, young lady in her 20's who goes to Mexico each year. A weeks wages lost, airfare, expenses to go for a week. They have been building the same small church for as long as I can remember. About 60+ people go. If they wanted that church built, they should have collected the money, sent it with qualified people who could utilize the local community men who need work. Would boost a bad economy. They could have built that church years ago, and started 10 more with the expenses wasted on those "who want to go". Point is, I'm not knocking those who want to go. Most have their hearts in the right place. But do you want to accomplish something? Or just go somewhere? I say that missions should be weighed on a balance to see if it is not better to send money with qualified contractors. Another, A local pastor went last year, heard all about it [exploited] yet he could not speak the language. He went door to door, had a translator. Now they are no more likely to accept some stranger ideas than I am if a Muslim knocks on my door tomorrow. We have plenty to do right here, all around us. But that makes it much harder to exploit


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## gordon 2

I support missions, but some I don't. When the "missionaries" know little or nothing about the people, their spiritual histories that they are destined to, my radar lights up.

For example I have known of missionaries who asked a congragation for donations for their mission to Iraq where they did not know that christians lived there and had lived there for centuries. 

I have seen North American missions try to convert Holy Land christians to proper salvation!

I wonder that if not alot of these missions are an extention of  the propensity of some denomination to church plant a toe hold at a time. Doesn't really matter who holds the toe and who's toe one holds--foreign or one's own kind--a little faith and the great commission will travel.


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## gemcgrew

dawg2 said:


> But I fail to see much value in these particular ones when I don't see doctors, architects, engineers, builders, etc. on that list of participants.



I understand your position but I believe missionaries are men called of God to establish churches, train pastors and help establish those pastors and churches in the gospel, so that they might carry on the work of the gospel for years. "Doctors, architects, engineers, builders, etc." are not true missionaries and should not be supported by local churches. 

Missionaries are men who have a mission from God, and their mission is to preach the gospel of Christ.


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## dawg2

gemcgrew said:


> I understand your position but I believe missionaries are men called of God to establish churches, train pastors and help establish those pastors and churches in the gospel, so that they might carry on the work of the gospel for years. "Doctors, architects, engineers, builders, etc." are not true missionaries and should not be supported by local churches.
> 
> Missionaries are men who have a mission from God, and their mission is to preach the gospel of Christ.



Well then I guess you wouldn't fund this one either.  Both are females.  

One is a college student going the same place I just vacationed at not long ago (but I paid my own way).


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## gtparts

dawg2 said:


> I would be more compelled to give.  One, they know the culture and language so there would be more bang for the buck, so to speak.  Two, we would be taking care of our own backyard instead of having to do missions in exotic locales because it sounds "cooler" than the "coal towns of West Virginia."



Your assessment may be correct as far as it goes. It may be that having a knowledge of culture and language might be useful on the surface, but being called knows no boundaries or nationalities. They are all God's creation, none deserving of special consideration for being in our "backyards".

I must agree though, that if the rationale for going is based on "exotic locales" being "cooler", then I would not financially support that either. I found very little exotic or cool in the Dump in Guatemala City or the devastation of the earthquake that leveled much of Port au Prince, Haiti. Other of our church teams have made repeated trips to rural Mexico. In every situation lives were made better and hearts changed, and the housing, church buildings, schools that were built, and deep water wells drilled were the work of lay people financed by themselves and others.

And, yes, we have similar trips within the U.S., like the inner-city slums around Philly.  

Those who claim to be followers of Christ should, as an outgrowth of that relationship, be going and doing or making it possible for others to do so.


----------



## mtnwoman

Well if I'm ever in a tornado or hurricane or something really bad happens to me, I hope and pray to God that someone has a tender heart enough to come help me and if they can't come help me that they will send other people to help me.

I can't go help people in need but I send whatever I can to help feed or clothe them moneywise, especially my own church, and I always know where it is going. Someday I may need that help myself, but that's not why I do it.

I have had to go to food pantrys before and I have had to get my light bill paid for a few times thru catholic social services, not many but a few, and I've had to get heat aid from the red cross during a blizzard in 1993. I am thankful for people willing to give.

I say if you don't have a heart to give, don't. It's ok, someone will.

I didn't read all the posts...I'm just saying, go by your conviction.


----------



## JustUs4All

I giving when I think that what I give might help.  

I will not be played even when the play is a religious one.  I actually despise those.  

In reading some of the replies I find the religious verbiage that is commonly used in the attempt to shame folks into giving money.

For all who blindly give to mission trips, I am contemplating one to the north west coastal area.  PM me for details on how to make your contribution.


----------



## Ronnie T

One thing us American's can do more than anything else is proved financial aid to those who are doing God's work in what we refer to as the "mission field".
The greatest work we can do in spreading the Gospel is to train and teach local S. Americans to lead and do the mission work in S. America.  A lot of money is needed.  Churches need to be built.  Bible schools need forming.  Preachers and mission workers need to be taught and supported.

I've known of churches near me that send dozens of missionaries to many different countries each year.....  Yet I often get a call from a sick or needy person looking for some help because the other church turned them down.  

"They couldn't help my family because they've used up their quarterly allotment of funds to help the local needy"..

So they call me.  And my church helps them.

Since we're talking about mission work I'd like to ask a question:
If a member of your church family has a medical or financial need will your church help them financially?
If an elderly lady needs help paying her electricity bill this month, will your church help them?  Maybe a single mother's car broke and can't be repaired, will your church financially help her get another?

I sometimes get the impression that some churches never help their own family members.  And if they do help them, they want to do a huge financial investigation to make sure the person actually "deserves" it.

Subject change again:  If you know someone who wants to be involved in some mission work, tell them to contact some of the mission organizations that are working in Haiti.  There's some serious needs there.

Every request for overseas mission financial support should be carefully considered.  There are a lot of needs.  Make sure you give to the one's who will use it wisely and as God would expect.


----------



## Ronnie T

Dawg,  I suspect this wasn't a worthy mission trip, or you would have helped.
It it isn't worthy, find one that is.
We need to be wise stewards of what God has provided us.


----------



## JustUs4All

Ronnie T said:


> One thing us American's can do more than anything else is proved financial aid to those who are doing God's work in what we refer to as the "mission field".
> The greatest work we can do in spreading the Gospel is to train and teach local S. Americans to lead and do the mission work in S. America.  A lot of money is needed.  Churches need to be built.  Bible schools need forming.  Preachers and mission workers need to be taught and supported.
> 
> I've known of churches near me that send dozens of missionaries to many different countries each year.....  Yet I often get a call from a sick or needy person looking for some help because the other church turned them down.
> 
> "They couldn't help my family because they've used up their quarterly allotment of funds to help the local needy"..
> 
> So they call me.  And my church helps them.
> 
> Since we're talking about mission work I'd like to ask a question:
> If a member of your church family has a medical or financial need will your church help them financially?
> If an elderly lady needs help paying her electricity bill this month, will your church help them?  Maybe a single mother's car broke and can't be repaired, will your church financially help her get another?
> 
> I sometimes get the impression that some churches never help their own family members.  And if they do help them, they want to do a huge financial investigation to make sure the person actually "deserves" it.
> 
> Subject change again:  If you know someone who wants to be involved in some mission work, tell them to contact some of the mission organizations that are working in Haiti.  There's some serious needs there.
> 
> Every request for overseas mission financial support should be carefully considered.  There are a lot of needs.  Make sure you give to the one's who will use it wisely and as God would expect.



You can get an Amen here, brother.  The need close at hand is often is overlooked in favor of the more exotic need overseas.


----------



## dawg2

Ronnie T said:


> Dawg,  I suspect this wasn't a worthy mission trip, or you would have helped.
> It it isn't worthy, find one that is.
> We need to be wise stewards of what God has provided us.



These two in particular are not.  I guess my main point is it really strikes me in a bad way when someone slaps "MISSION TRIP" on a vacation and panders it as a worthwhile cause under the guise of a "church."  I have BIG problems with people that do that.  

Yes, had it been a worthwhile mission, I will support them and have.


----------



## dawg2

Ronnie T said:


> One thing us American's can do more than anything else is proved financial aid to those who are doing God's work in what we refer to as the "mission field".
> The greatest work we can do in spreading the Gospel is to train and teach local S. Americans to lead and do the mission work in S. America.  A lot of money is needed.  Churches need to be built.  Bible schools need forming.  Preachers and mission workers need to be taught and supported.
> 
> I've known of churches near me that send dozens of missionaries to many different countries each year.....  Yet I often get a call from a sick or needy person looking for some help because the other church turned them down.
> 
> "They couldn't help my family because they've used up their quarterly allotment of funds to help the local needy"..
> 
> So they call me.  And my church helps them.
> 
> Since we're talking about mission work I'd like to ask a question:
> If a member of your church family has a medical or financial need will your church help them financially?
> If an elderly lady needs help paying her electricity bill this month, will your church help them?  Maybe a single mother's car broke and can't be repaired, will your church financially help her get another?
> 
> I sometimes get the impression that some churches never help their own family members.  And if they do help them, they want to do a huge financial investigation to make sure the person actually "deserves" it.
> 
> Subject change again:  If you know someone who wants to be involved in some mission work, tell them to contact some of the mission organizations that are working in Haiti.  There's some serious needs there.
> 
> Every request for overseas mission financial support should be carefully considered.  There are a lot of needs.  Make sure you give to the one's who will use it wisely and as God would expect.


Very good post.


JustUs4All said:


> You can get an Amen here, brother.  The need close at hand is often is overlooked in favor of the more exotic need overseas.


Exactly.


----------



## thedeacon

mtnwoman said:


> Well if I'm ever in a tornado or hurricane or something really bad happens to me, I hope and pray to God that someone has a tender heart enough to come help me and if they can't come help me that they will send other people to help me.
> 
> I can't go help people in need but I send whatever I can to help feed or clothe them moneywise, especially my own church, and I always know where it is going. Someday I may need that help myself, but that's not why I do it.
> 
> I have had to go to food pantrys before and I have had to get my light bill paid for a few times thru catholic social services, not many but a few, and I've had to get heat aid from the red cross during a blizzard in 1993. I am thankful for people willing to give.
> 
> I say if you don't have a heart to give, don't. It's ok, someone will.
> 
> I didn't read all the posts...I'm just saying, go by your conviction.




AMEN
Throughout the New Testiment I have never read the statement, "if he deserves it" Jesus never questioned
wheather or not someone deserved his help because
he knew they didn't. What if Jesus inspected every
single prayer we prayed to him just as we inspect
every request.

It is impossible for me to give money everytime I am 
ask but I have to say, it is very seldom I turn down 
someone that tells me they are hungry. Some of my
friends have told me they think I am crazy for my acts.
Maybe I am but I can accept that.

If a church spends $50,000.00 to send a group of people
to another country or to somewhere in the United States 
and one soul is saved I think it was worth it.

Is every penny that is given used in a way that it was 
intended, of course not, but that is not the question.
The question is, Am I doing what I can to spread the
gospel? That is a serious question. 

Have you ever given your last five dollars to someone hungry and had to do without lunch yourself, if not why not,
that is sacrifice and that is what Christianity is built upon.

We in America know very little about hunger and secrifice.
We look down on people and put them in classes, Jesus 
didn't do that. I too have needed help in the past and people opened their hearts and helped me, I haven't 
forgotten that and I hope I never do. 

To be a Christian there has to be an attitude, and attitude
of unwavering love for everyone in every sense of the word.


I will never miss the money I use to help someone, even if 
they use it in the wrong way. Do I think God is pleased with
them, not by a long shot, but I do think he is pleased with
one of his children when they work to help others.

Attitude

Just my opinion.


----------



## Milkman

IMO human needs are abundant next door or across the globe as many have pointed out. There are mulitple disasters all over this state and country where there are those in true need and some who are just inconvienienced  for a day or two until the insurance adjuster comes around. 

The mission of getting the gospel to those who havent heard it is a different thing entirely in most cases.


----------



## Bruz

Care,Love,Help the Children HERE before packing up and going on a TRIP elsewhere on someone elses dime. 

No....Its not as interesting to pray for Brother X in downtown Atlanta or Appalachia "On Mission" but from what I hear Pride and Vanity arent that necessary. 

The $1,500 in airfare it takes to JUST GET THERE could be used to actually BENEFIT a child here. 

These trips are not a out GOD or Jesus....They are vain ego driven 15 minutes of fame moments for the missionaries. Call me to send money to an American. Hild or even an Illegal Alien Child HERE and I will support it. 

My $.02


----------



## Huntinfool

NCHillbilly said:


> One devil's-advocate question: If a Muslim or Hindu missionary came from Khazikstan or India and stayed in your neighborhood for a couple weeks and tried to convert you to his religion, what would his chances of success be? Or would he have maybe been better off and accomplished more by spending his plane ticket money to help feed and clothe the Muslim/Hindu children in his own country? And why do we expect people in other countries to react differently to our proselytizing than we would to theirs?



Because the gospel is irresistible.  Because we are commanded to spread it through the whole earth.

Is your question really based on the idea that you think spreading the gospel is pointless and that no will hear and believe than any of the other (fake) religions out there?


----------



## Huntinfool

> These trips are not a out GOD or Jesus....They are vain ego driven 15 minutes of fame moments for the missionaries. Call me to send money to an American. Hild or even an Illegal Alien Child HERE and I will support it.



I hate to do it....but WWJD?

Children who live in poverty here are considered poor when their flatscreen tv is less than 50 inches and they only have one xbox in their home....and you're right...they need the gospel.

As Atlas pointed out to us a while back, children who live in poverty in other countries many times have vultures literally standing behind them just waiting for them to get weak enough so they can start feasting....and they need the gospel.

Regardless of the country, they ALL need the gospel.  Rich and poor.  Is it worth the cost of a plane ticket to be the catalyst that starts the fire that will save thousands?


----------



## grouper throat

I can see both sides of the argument here. I tend to believe most people have good intentions (aka I'm gullible) so my perception is I take mission trips for what they are intended for. Our church tends to do alot of local and foreign outreach and I support all of it although I personally would rather see more local help. If they take money meant for God's work and use it for other things as vacations, then the money I gave was still given with good intentions. I do not like it when I suspect it but who am I to say what they did or did not do as I was not there with them. I do not have to be judged for glorified vacations falsely based on spreading God's word one day, they will.


----------



## JB0704

I believe missions are a very good thing.  I guess it does all come down to a basic cost-benefit analysis.  How can we use the resources to accomplish the most benefit? Can a local resource use my airfare and hotel money to build a well for a sick village, or feed a family for a year....in many of these places, the answer is yes.  In such an event, by going myself, I am depriving a need in order to feed my desire to do something good.

Many people raise money to send, and not go.  That is a good thing too.


----------



## rjcruiser

Huntinfool said:


> Is it worth the cost of a plane ticket to be the catalyst that starts the fire that will save thousands?



I'm guessing based on some of the responses here....no.

And if you swing by the Taj Mahal on the way out of Delhi....you've just turned your 10 day smelly trip into a luxurious vacation.


As with everything...discernment is key.  I don't give to Creflo's $$$ ministry...or NewBirf "Missionary" church.  But really guys, just because it is an overseas mission trip doesn't make it a vacation.


----------



## JB0704

rjcruiser said:


> But really guys, just because it is an overseas mission trip doesn't make it a vacation.



My wife has been on many of these trips (before we were married).  Not to be contrary here, but some are the real deal, and some are not.  Israel is a very popular trip for Christians, lots of folks love the Holy land tours.  Cuba is not so popular.  You have to be very dedicated to go back....my wife went three times.  The only  personal "perk" to the Cuba trip was the cigars that came home with the missionaries....


----------



## dawg2

JB0704 said:


> My wife has been on many of these trips (before we were married).  Not to be contrary here, but some are the real deal, and some are not.  Israel is a very popular trip for Christians, lots of folks love the Holy land tours.  Cuba is not so popular.  You have to be very dedicated to go back....my wife went three times.  The only  personal "perk" to the Cuba trip was the cigars that came home with the missionaries....



So they condone illegal smuggling on those trips as well


----------



## JB0704

dawg2 said:


> So they condone illegal smuggling on those trips as well



It's more like "don't ask, don't tell." 

Good cigars, though.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I guess it does all come down to a basic cost-benefit analysis. How can we use the resources to accomplish the most benefit?



...and where does God figure in to the equation?  Follow me?

It doesn't just come down to accounting.  Absolutely, wisdom is something we should ask for and use.  But cost/benefit analysis is not what the Bible tells us.

Christ gave all and commanded others to do the same for the SINGLE purpose of spreading the gospel.  Does that make accounting sense?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ...and where does God figure in to the equation?



It's his mission.  How do we do the most of his work with the resources available.  Sometimes "I" can limit the output.


----------



## Huntinfool

But what if he called you to an island with only one inhabitant and it would cost $10,000 to get there.

What does cost/benefit say about that?

(and no, she's not a hot island native wearing coconuts)


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> But what if he called you to an island with only one inhabitant and it would cost $10,000 to get there.
> 
> What does cost/benefit say about that?
> 
> (and no, she's not a hot island native wearing coconuts)



It would probably be a good investment seing as there is no local resource who could do the job with greater efficiency.  

(My wife wouldn't approve of me visiting the hot native in coconuts anyway......)


----------



## Huntinfool

Agreed....on both counts!


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Christ gave all and commanded others to do the same for the SINGLE purpose of spreading the gospel.  Does that make accounting sense?



I might be wrong, but I think you are dealing with the spiritual aspect of the individual on the mission.  I am looking at the big picture, with the mission as the singular focus, and the resources (money, people, time) as the tools to accomplish the mission.

That being the case, I would think the mission should be accompished as cheaply as possible in an effort to spread the resources as far as possible in order to accomplish more of the mission.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Agreed....on both counts!



That may be a first for you and I


----------



## JustUs4All

Huntinfool said:


> ...and where does God figure in to the equation?  Follow me?
> 
> It doesn't just come down to accounting.  Absolutely, wisdom is something we should ask for and use.  But cost/benefit analysis is not what the Bible tells us.
> 
> Christ gave all and commanded others to do the same for the SINGLE purpose of spreading the gospel.  Does that make accounting sense?



I would argue that one should heed the parable of the talents and invest one's resources wisely.  Accounting, you see, has its place even here.


----------



## Huntinfool

So...that's what you think the parable of the talents is about, huh?

It's an accounting lesson.  I suppose that's one way to look at it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked JB....is this money invested wisely?



> But what if he called you to an island with only one inhabitant and it would cost $10,000 to get there.
> 
> What does cost/benefit say about that?
> 
> (and no, she's not a hot island native wearing coconuts)


----------



## Da Possum

Wow!  I can't believe that dawg2 hates missionaries   Next your going to tell me that he kicks little kittens and puppies


----------



## Ronnie T

Giving extreme examples of opposite points of view doesn't actually add much to any discussion.  Especially Christian discussions.
My wife and I use to do that when we argued.
It helped one feel outsmarted by the other.


----------



## ctmoore

You might as well not give unless you can do it cheerfully.  Money given to the Lord grudgingly brings no blessing.

If a person can afford to pay for their own mission trip, then they should not ask others.  If they cannot go without help, then it is okay to ask.  When you pay your own way, it is another way to give to the Lord cheerfully.


----------



## speedcop

I like to think that im smart enough to sort out the vacations versus the mission.  Our church has a regular mission to romania. They have built churches, homes spread bibles in the native language, even held vbs for these which are mostly orphans. Sometimes I have questioned the 3-4 thousand dollars it cost for one to go. 

Most of our people sacrifice and save on their own but I do help. Sometimes I have wondered what if they took the thousands and just sent it to our contacts over there what good it could do. But I have seen the God changing difference it has done to most of the folks who go. They come back a different person, humble, full of fire for God. You cant put a price on that. And it rubs off on those at home. 

I dont give at everything, given my profession we always say if I dont know you personally and your mouth is open your lying. (not literally) . I used to never give to panhandlers or beggars, but as I have grown older and hopefully wiser, I'll be the first to give. Even when I know it may be going to drugs or alcohol. But I tell the person it's not from me. It's from Jesus. What you do with it is your choice. But when I stand in front of him one day and answer for my actions I know I did the right thing. The beggar's on his own.

Now dont think I give to every hand that's out. I dont. Im just saying I give more now than i used to. I think what a lot of folks leave out of the equation in these "give to mission trips" is prayer. How many folks REALLY pray to God about that decision. Botttom line for me....... if God lays it on my heart to give i will. If he dont, my gamble.


----------



## NCHillbilly

Huntinfool said:


> I hate to do it....but WWJD?
> 
> Children who live in poverty here are considered poor when their flatscreen tv is less than 50 inches and they only have one xbox in their home....and you're right...they need the gospel.



You obviously grew up and live in a much different environment from me. Swing through the Appalachians sometime-it's like a third-world country in many places, mansions of rich folk from somewhere else on the hilltops and trailer parks full of people barely getting by in the valleys. When I was growing up not all that long ago, most of the older members of my family (and probably a quarter of the community at large,) had lived all their lives without indoor plumbing or electricity. I know people in my own community who are hurting as bad as many of these foreign people, and those are the people I would spend my limited time and resources to help instead of someone on the other side of the world.

And there are plenty of good people right here in our own country who are left without a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of everytime a tornado touches down or a hurricane comes through. They need help just as much as the Haitians or the Zulus. 



Huntinfool said:


> Because the gospel is irresistible.  Because we are commanded to spread it through the whole earth.
> 
> Is your question really based on the idea that you think spreading the gospel is pointless and that no will hear and believe than any of the other (fake) religions out there?



Basically, I strongly disagree with anybody shoving their religion or culture down anybody else's throat. There are many religions in the world, and people who adhere to each of them believe just as strongly as you do that their religion is the true one and the other ones are false. They have grown up in the culture, and think it's the right way. 

I firmly believe that if most devout fundamentalist Christians had been born in India, they would have been just as devout of Hindus as you are a Christian now, and for the same reasons. If you had been born in Iraq, you would likely be a militant Muslim fighting the Christian infidels right now, because blind religious faith is the same in human nature, worldwide. It transcends culture and race. You believe everything you have been taught in your culture and native religion, and don't want to question it. People in other cultures feel the same way. They are about as likely to abandon their religion for yours as you are to abandon Christianity for their religion, and I don't blame them. I don't presume to know who's right or wrong, I'm not God. 

Another point about missionary work that troubles me is the forced to join the "superior" culture thing. I've seen instances more than once where some tribe is living out in the jungle like they have been for thousands of years, are happy, healthy, family-oriented and generous, and get all they need to live from the jungle around them. They are "discovered" by anthropologists, and the missionaries are foaming at the mouth to go civilize and indoctrinate them. Next thing you know, most of the tribe are wearing flipflops and Justin Beiber Tshirts and are now poverty-stricken disfunctional alchoholics and prostitutes living in the slums of Rio or Nairobi while the missionaries are back home watching tv, eating steaks, and planning their next trip to civilize and enlighten the poor heathen savages. Forced assimilation is not always a good thing.
It caused the demise of hundreds of thousands of American Indians, for example. 

Helping people in other countries is good. Helping them with the condition that they must adopt your culture and religion to receive your help, maybe not as good of a thing.


----------



## centerpin fan

NCHillbilly said:


> And there are plenty of good people right here in our own country who are left without a pot to pee in or a window to throw it out of everytime a tornado touches down or a hurricane comes through. They need help just as much as the Haitians or the Zulus.



I do what I can for both groups.


----------



## dawg2

Huntinfool said:


> I hate to do it....but WWJD?
> 
> Children who live in poverty here are considered poor when their flatscreen tv is less than 50 inches and they only have one xbox in their home....and you're right...they need the gospel.
> ....


Are you being facetious?  Or serious?


----------



## JustUs4All

Huntinfool said:


> So...that's what you think the parable of the talents is about, huh?
> 
> It's an accounting lesson.  I suppose that's one way to look at it.
> 
> I'll ask you the same question I asked JB....is this money invested wisely?



One would have to answer the question: How many others could be saved if this one were allowed to slip through the net?

There goes that darned accounting again.


----------



## Huntinfool

dawg2 said:


> Are you being facetious?  Or serious?



The point of the comment is apparently whizzing over people's heads.

Comparitively speaking...."poverty" in the United States means something VERY different than in many other countries....even Appalachia.




> I know people in my own community who are hurting as bad as many of these foreign people, and those are the people I would spend my limited time and resources to help instead of someone on the other side of the world.




This is what I was referring to.  Atlas pointed this out (and rightly so) a while back.  I think living with a dirt floor and without indoor plumbing is very hard to fathom....but it does not even come *CLOSE* to this.  I didn't even want to go find this picture.  But I need to post it again so that everyone understands the comparison I'm trying to make.

Absolutely, there is suffering in the U.S. that needs to be helped.  But I don't understand the mentality that, somehow, suffering people here take precendent over someone suffering elsewhere.


----------



## Huntinfool

JustUs4All said:


> One would have to answer the question: How many others could be saved if this one were allowed to slip through the net?
> 
> There goes that darned accounting again.



So which school did you get your accounting degree from?

"Slip through the net"?  Did you really say that?  Do you understand what the Bible has to say about what God thinks about "this one"?

That darn accounting is leading you astray of biblical truth my friend.


----------



## Huntinfool

> Basically, I strongly disagree with anybody shoving their religion or culture down anybody else's throat.



So do I.  Did you hear me say anything about forcing religion on somebody?



> There are many religions in the world, and people who adhere to each of them believe just as strongly as you do that their religion is the true one and the other ones are false. They have grown up in the culture, and think it's the right way.



They sure do.  You're right.  Let me ask you this...who's "god" is real?  I think the answer to that will clarify your position a bit.



> I firmly believe that if most devout fundamentalist Christians had been born in India, they would have been just as devout of Hindus as you are a Christian now, and for the same reasons. If you had been born in Iraq, you would likely be a militant Muslim fighting the Christian infidels right now, because blind religious faith is the same in human nature, worldwide. It transcends culture and race.



Again....you're right....thus the need for missionaries and worldwide evangelism...not "forcing religion down their throats".



> You believe everything you have been taught in your culture and native religion, and don't want to question it.



That is an assumption you make about me...and it's wrong.  I question every day.  I spent 33 years questioning it hardcore.  It has nothing to do with whether I blindly accept something.  Trust me...I'm likely the most skeptical person you know.



> They are about as likely to abandon their religion for yours as you are to abandon Christianity for their religion, and I don't blame them. I don't presume to know who's right or wrong, I'm not God.



So I suppose you're unaware of the (literally) millions of people(mostly muslims) in african nations that are accepting Christ every year, correct?



> Next thing you know, most of the tribe are wearing flipflops and Justin Beiber Tshirts and are now poverty-stricken disfunctional alchoholics and prostitutes living in the slums of Rio or Nairobi while the missionaries are back home watching tv, eating steaks, and planning their next trip to civilize and enlighten the poor heathen savages. Forced assimilation is not always a good thing.
> It caused the demise of hundreds of thousands of American Indians, for example.



This is just silly.  Perhaps 18th and 19th century missionaries did that.  Can you show me an example from the last, say 75 years where missionaries did that to a native tribe (not anthropologist...missionaries)?  I suppose it's possible.  But it's certainly not the norm (and we agree that it isn't right if it happens).  



> Helping people in other countries is good. Helping them with the condition that they must adopt your culture and religion to receive your help, maybe not as good of a thing.



Nobody suggested that missionaries give help that is conditional on acceptance of Christ.  That is 100% unbiblical and wrong.  Christ tells us to go, be servants and spread the gospel.  The first two are not conditional of the third.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> I question every day.  I spent 33 years questioning it hardcore.  It has nothing to do with whether I blindly accept something.  Trust me...I'm likely the most skeptical person you know.



I know this was in reference to another individual, but, someitmes you confuse me.  You are a "skeptical hard-liner?"  Are you skeptical of people, or skeptical of religion?

I do get your point about suffering in other countries, HF.  Anybody with a brain recognizes that the poorest American has it better than many Africans.  My response in this thread was not in reference to the folks who go and work in Africa.  My response is about folks who raise money to go to locations based on the "perks," or, the trips which are advertised based on the "perks."  I have tossed out enough examples at this point.

If it is just a trip of individual enrichment, I would assume such satisfaction could also be derived from spreading the money further by staying at home, and using local resources in many, NOT ALL, circumstances.

Missions are a very good thing, and necessary, and needed.  But as with anything else, people will take advantage of a situation, so we have to have our "horse apples" detector turned on when folks come asking for money.  It is not ours, and the responsibility for using it wisely, spreading it to the greatest extent, falls on us.  Otherwise, we are being poor stewards.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Nobody suggested that missionaries give help that is conditional on acceptance of Christ.  That is 100% unbiblical and wrong.



This is a very good point.


----------



## rjcruiser

Ahh...as RonnieT put above....we have another thread based on extreme circumstances where discernment is thrown out the window.


This is kinda like those Zero Tolerance rules at the gooberment schools.  One extreme case is bad...so then every case is evil.


----------



## hobbs27

God has never burdened me to contribute to missionaries, therefore I don't .I also don't know what is in their hearts and can't judge if God has truly burdened them to go out, but if God has, God will make a way.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I know this was in reference to another individual, but, someitmes you confuse me.  You are a "skeptical hard-liner?"  Are you skeptical of people, or skeptical of religion?



I am a "hard-liner" because I'm very well convinced of my positions on issues that I decide to pipe up on.  That's not to say I can't be convinced in a different direction if the evidence shows itself.  I just mean that, if I talk about something with conviction, there is a reason...because I'm skeptical and I've done my best to vet the issue biblically.

My conviction that God is real, that he is the ONLY god and that I am saved because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross comes from very personal experiences that leave me 100% convinced of the reality of that truth.  He encountered me in a very real way a while back and there is no doubt what happened or who it was that encountered me.  That experience cleared up my questions as to whether he was real.  From there I believe that his Word is authoritative and so, I vet questions/concerns/issues through that lense.



> I do get your point about suffering in other countries, HF.  Anybody with a brain recognizes that the poorest American has it better than many Africans.  My response in this thread was not in reference to the folks who go and work in Africa.  My response is about folks who raise money to go to locations based on the "perks," or, the trips which are advertised based on the "perks."  I have tossed out enough examples at this point.



Definitely, there are some folks who do that.  I don't doubt that at all.  I suppose this is another one of those areas where I believe in the good of believers more than you are willing to trust at this point.  I think that the people who do that are not the majority and that, for the most part, those who go to serve Christ go to do just that.  If there is something fun to do while they are there, I don't see anything wrong with that.  They are taking vacation to serve.  Why can't they ALSO have some fun while they are there?  As long as the focus of the trip (and their hearts in the motivation) is on service to the Lord, I don't see the issue.




> Missions are a very good thing, and necessary, and needed.  But as with anything else, people will take advantage of a situation, so we have to have our "horse apples" detector turned on when folks come asking for money.  It is not ours, and the responsibility for using it wisely, spreading it to the greatest extent, falls on us.  Otherwise, we are being poor stewards.



Totally agree.


----------



## JustUs4All

Huntinfool said:


> So which school did you get your accounting degree from?
> 
> "Slip through the net"?  Did you really say that?  Do you understand what the Bible has to say about what God thinks about "this one"?
> 
> That darn accounting is leading you astray of biblical truth my friend.



Schooled here in GA, but educated around the world.

How is my accounting leading me astray?

Don't you have to make choices on how to allocate your resources? Surely you do not posess enough time and money to reach everyone.

What exactly is your plan to not let any slip through the net?


----------



## Huntinfool

You're letting accounting logic supercede a calling from what I can tell...that's how.  At least that's how it reads to me.

If God calls you to minister to "this one"....whether it makes debits and credits line up is of no consequence.

I am not suggesting that either you or I is called to take the gospel to "this one" (that I don't know)...but someone is (that I DO know)...and someone will waste their money by your logic because the parable of the talents apparently tells us that's an unwise investment.


----------



## grouper throat

Huntinfool said:


> The point of the comment is apparently whizzing over people's heads.
> 
> Comparitively speaking...."poverty" in the United States means something VERY different than in many other countries....even Appalachia.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is what I was referring to.  Atlas pointed this out (and rightly so) a while back.  I think living with a dirt floor and without indoor plumbing is very hard to fathom....but it does not even come *CLOSE* to this.  I didn't even want to go find this picture.  But I need to post it again so that everyone understands the comparison I'm trying to make.
> 
> Absolutely, there is suffering in the U.S. that needs to be helped.  But I don't understand the mentality that, somehow, suffering people here take precendent over someone suffering elsewhere.
> 
> View attachment 663516



I agree with you although I think we should take care of our own first but I have a soft spot for all of the children in poverty. To reinterate this sentiment of third world countries-

Recently we had a family go on a mission trip to Haiti just a few weeks ago and they spoke about a little girl who was sold as a child slave and another infant who couldn't be cared for properly and was malnourished because all the dad could do to provide for the infant was cheetos and sugar water. I don't know about you guys but I don't hear of much malnourishment in America even in the most poverty-stricken cases. 

If anything, the poorer of our America society tend to be on the heavier side and obesity is beginning to be an epedemic..


----------



## JustUs4All

Huntinfool said:


> You're letting accounting logic supercede a calling from what I can tell...that's how.  At least that's how it reads to me.



You say that you have somehow read into my posts that after being called by God to support a mission, I then used accounting logic to supersede that calling from God?

That would be so wrong that in all probability it could only have been intentionally misconstrued. 



Huntinfool said:


> If God calls you to minister to "this one"....whether it makes debits and credits line up is of no consequence.
> 
> Here we are in complete agreement.
> 
> 
> 
> Huntinfool said:
> 
> 
> 
> I am not suggesting that either you or I is called to take the gospel to  "this one" (that I don't know)...but someone is (that I DO know)...and  someone will waste their money by your logic because the parable of the  talents apparently tells us that's an unwise investment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here your logic fails completely.  You extrapolate to expand my statements to a global scale from an individual scale and suppose that I control or judge the actions of others.
> 
> I suspect that you do not lack the ability to understand, just the desire to do so.
Click to expand...


----------



## Huntinfool

Good job using big words!




> How many others could be saved if this one were allowed to slip through the net?



These are the statements that concern me.  Would you (personally) allow one to slip through the net because...



> you have to make choices on how to allocate your resources




Here's how it reads to me (no intentional misconstruing here)...

I have to make decisions about who will hear the gospel based on how I think MY money is most wisely allocated.

If you want to use it...the "edit" button is in the bottom right corner of each or your posts.


----------



## Mako22

I worked with a guy who took these trips and he always came back with a pile of photos he wanted to show everybody. Based on his photos it was nothing but a glorified vacation for him.


----------



## JustUs4All

Huntinfool said:


> I have to make decisions about who will hear the gospel based on how I think MY money is most wisely allocated.



Since you can not reach everyone, please explain to me how you manage to do something other than to wisely allocate your resources to reach those that you can.

Your alternative would be to manage your resources unwisely and waste the opportunities that you do have.


----------



## Huntinfool

They are not my resources...nor are they yours.  That's the issue that I'm pointing out.

If God tells me to do something that accounting says is "unwise"....I will do it.

Managing "unwisely" is not my only alternative.  There is a third option and that is listen to the HS.  His ways are much higher than mine.  That is my point.  It is not just a matter of financial or accounting reasoning.  

Jesus told the rich man to give everything he had away and follow him.  Would that have been a wise allocation of resources?


----------



## JustUs4All

It is proving difficult to discuss this topic with someone who has a total understanding of and perfect two way communication with both God and the HS.  

Since mine is less than perfect, I am forced many times to rely, at least in part, on my own best judgment as to what they would have me do.  I believe that they would prefer to not have me waste my resources funding someone's vacation when there is work to be done.  I could be mistaken, though as my lines of communication seem to be not nearly so clear as yours.


----------



## dawg2

JustUs4All said:


> It is proving difficult to discuss this topic with someone who has a total understanding of and perfect two way communication with both God and the HS.
> 
> Since mine is less than perfect, I am forced many times to rely, at least in part, on my own best judgment as to what they would have me do.  I believe that they would prefer to not have me waste my resources funding someone's vacation when there is work to be done.  I could be mistaken, though as my lines of communication seem to be not nearly so clear as yours.



That's funny


----------



## gtparts

Tomorrow is World Malaria Day. Each year 500,000 children die from malaria. Total annual numbers are estimated to be between 1.5 and 2.7 million.

From 1979 to 1998, malarial deaths in the U.S. averaged 5.9 individuals per year. Most were U.S. citizens who traveled abroad to areas where it is epidemic. The next largest group (still minute in number) were foreign (tourists/business) travelers. Diagnosis was 98% antemortem. 

Similar information is available for deaths from malnutrition. 

The point is, there are significant reasons for an emphasis on missions, both foreign and domestic. If quality of life is a consideration, the shear weight of suffering abroad may be motivating. If helping those at home (U.S.A.) is a burden God has placed on your heart, you certainly have enough work to do.

What still saddens me about this thread is that too often we (yes, I include myself) sometimes use some form of reasoning to avoid the task of meeting the needs, physical and spiritual, of those around us, locally and globally. Such reasoning may be rooted in our prejudices and preferences. God forbid it being rooted in our selfishness.


----------



## JB0704

I haven't really seen anybody say that needs should not be met, though.  Everybody seems supportive of missions.  We just have different perspectives on how to accomplish it.

I think I once heard that it costs $3500 to build a well in Burkina Faso.  Just a few round trip tickets could cost that much.  Which is better for the mission?

Also, the parts where I have used the term "local resource" I should have clarified that I meant "local" as in a resident missionary in a foreign land, or another aid group which is already in the mission field.


----------



## Huntinfool

> I believe that they would prefer to not have me waste my resources funding someone's vacation when there is work to be done.



Shifting away from the topic of whether it's wasteful to take the gospel to the one who slips through the net is probably the best path for you to take at this point.  I agree.




> I am forced many times to rely, at least in part, on my own best judgment as to what they would have me do.



 	Trust in the LORD with all your heart,
		and do not lean on your own understanding.
	In all your ways acknowledge him,
		and he will make straight your paths.
	Be not wise in your own eyes;
(Proverbs 3:5-7 ESV)



> I could be mistaken, though as my lines of communication seem to be not nearly so clear as yours.



You are.  No worries though.  You'll get there.


----------



## Huntinfool

> What still saddens me about this thread is that too often we (yes, I include myself) sometimes use some form of reasoning to avoid the task of meeting the needs, physical and spiritual, of those around us, locally and globally. Such reasoning may be rooted in our prejudices and preferences. God forbid it being rooted in our selfishness.



Very well said.


----------



## pstrahin

You don't.  Be a good steward of your money that God has belssed you with and support the work of your church.


----------



## JB0704

pstrahin said:


> Be a good steward of your money that God has belssed you with and support the work of your church.



I don't really have a church....a person can support missions and ministries quite effectively outside of that as well.

That being said, my wife and I have been visiting a local Methodist church a bit lately.  I had not even considered how they do missions.  Something to think on anyway.......


----------



## pstrahin

JB0704 said:


> I don't really have a church....a person can support missions and ministries quite effectively outside of that as well.
> 
> That being said, my wife and I have been visiting a local Methodist church a bit lately.  I had not even considered how they do missions.  Something to think on anyway.......



I do agree, as we are told to go into all of the world and be fishers of men.  I feel the we should do our due diligence before we just hand out funds to anybody that asks.


----------



## mossyback8874

I decided months ago to quit posting in this section but I just have to comment on some of these posts.

First, as has been mentioned by HF, prayer for discernment is the most important part of giving.

Second, it's not our money in question, it's his.

Third, just because we share a country with others, it doesn't make it "our people" or "our own".  There is no differentiation between someone in Uganda and someone in Atlanta.  To actually feel that way is a form of Idolatry for our country (read about Jonah), same concept.  

Lastly, if we give cheerfully and the money is misused, that shouldn't be our concern, we've done what the Lord has led us to do.

JB, I'm also very analytical (BBA in Accounting), and understand the opinions expressed by most, but we can't lose sight of the fact that the God we all worship will tell us what to do and when to do it.  It seems like quite a few on this board don't rely on prayer enough for the decisions being made.  I honestly struggle with that too sometimes.


----------



## JB0704

mossyback8874 said:


> JB, I'm also very analytical (BBA in Accounting), and understand the opinions expressed by most, but we can't lose sight of the fact that the God we all worship will tell us what to do and when to do it.  It seems like quite a few on this board don't rely on prayer enough for the decisions being made.  I honestly struggle with that too sometimes.



You may have a point.  Good post.  My thoughts are that we simply need to spread the resources as far as possible.  I have seen some abuse of the good intentions of others in the past.  It's a tough situation, really, when judging another's motives.

BTW, we have a similar education.  I have an msa from SPSU in Marietta.  My undergrad was also in accounting at Liberty.


----------



## dawg2

mossyback8874 said:


> I decided months ago to quit posting in this section but I just have to comment on some of these posts.
> 
> First, as has been mentioned by HF, prayer for discernment is the most important part of giving.
> 
> Second, it's not our money in question, it's his.
> 
> Third, just because we share a country with others, it doesn't make it "our people" or "our own".  There is no differentiation between someone in Uganda and someone in Atlanta.  To actually feel that way is a form of Idolatry for our country (read about Jonah), same concept.
> 
> Lastly, if we give cheerfully and the money is misused, that shouldn't be our concern, we've done what the Lord has led us to do.
> 
> JB, I'm also very analytical (BBA in Accounting), and understand the opinions expressed by most, but we can't lose sight of the fact that the God we all worship will tell us what to do and when to do it.  It seems like quite a few on this board don't rely on prayer enough for the decisions being made.  I honestly struggle with that too sometimes.


...Maybe my prayer led me to discern: not suppporting this particular vactationmissiontrip.


----------



## mossyback8874

JB0704 said:


> You may have a point.  Good post.  My thoughts are that we simply need to spread the resources as far as possible.  I have seen some abuse of the good intentions of others in the past.  It's a tough situation, really, when judging another's motives.
> 
> BTW, we have a similar education.  I have an msa from SPSU in Marietta.  My undergrad was also in accounting at Liberty.



I think it's safe to say that we, men and women, have a tendency to pervert anything that could be used for good, whether it be missions, money, or religion in general.


----------



## dawg2

mossyback8874 said:


> I think it's safe to say that we, men and women, have a tendency to pervert anything that could be used for good, whether it be missions, money, or religion in general.



So true...


----------



## mossyback8874

dawg2 said:


> ...Maybe my prayer led me to discern: not suppporting this particular vactationmissiontrip.



I wouldn't doubt that at all.  My point was sometimes we have to get out of our own way and let God lead us, whether it be to support a mission or not support a mission, adopt a baby or not adopt a baby, and the list goes on.  I know I personally haven't felt led yet to go on an oversees mission trip, but if God did lead me to do that then I wouldn't hesitate to try and raise funds for the trip.  For that matter, if I asked and someone refused to donate money for the trip, it wouldn't bother me in the least.  God finds a way to make things happen and I would feel secure in knowing that if it's his will for me to take such a trip then he will also provide.


----------



## JB0704

mossyback8874 said:


> God finds a way to make things happen and I would feel secure in knowing that if it's his will for me to take such a trip then he will also provide.



There is a reverse way of looking at that as well.  If you going prohibits "greater good" from being accomplished, then who is enabling the trip?

We can stamp "God" on anything we do, that does not mean he did it.  Prayer, discernment, are all good things.  I have a friend on a mission trip in India as we speak.  He is doing good things.  That does not mean every "mission trip" is "God ordained."


----------



## Huntinfool

So, JB...what's your solution for whether to give money to someone who is requesting help funding mission work?


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So, JB...what's your solution for whether to give money to someone who is requesting help funding mission work?



Prayer, discernment.  The folks I support are typically folks I know a good deal about.  

For instance, a friends college-age kid may want money to go on a mission trip to Jamaica.  I would likely have to say no because my resources are going to other places where I am certain (through prayer and discernment) that they are being used to the greatest good possible.


----------



## Huntinfool

Sounds good to me.


Curious...is it "college age" or "Jamaica" that would cause hesitation?  Or is it that you know that person well enough to know why he's going to Jamaica?


----------



## mossyback8874

JB0704 said:


> There is a reverse way of looking at that as well.  If you going prohibits "greater good" from being accomplished, then who is enabling the trip?
> 
> We can stamp "God" on anything we do, that does not mean he did it.  Prayer, discernment, are all good things.  I have a friend on a mission trip in India as we speak.  He is doing good things.  That does not mean every "mission trip" is "God ordained."



Good point, I guess.  There is no doubt that some things centered around God aren't "of" God, look no further than a certain preacher based out of Houston that's on tv every night.  I guess that's the scary part, trying to discern what his will for us.  I'm not about to sit here and say that I'm in tune enough right now to know his will for me, but all we can do is pray for that discernment and resolve in all that we do.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> Curious...is it "college age" or "Jamaica" that would cause hesitation?  Or is it that you know that person well enough to know why he's going to Jamaica?



Well, it's a little bit of both.  Jamaica is a very needy country, very poor. So, obviously there is good cause for going, but there are TONS of local resources which could be used to send aid and the gospel there.  The college age thing would have to do with motivation and results.  I know some great college kids, and some phonys (I was one).  I would think they could raise money to send more qualified people, or send money to local resources.  But, that is a bit judgemental, I am aware.

I guess it is a knee-jerk reaction.  Same I would have if my fishing fanatic neighbor all had a "calling" to Alaska during the Salmon season.


----------



## Ronnie T

JB0704 said:


> There is a reverse way of looking at that as well.  If you going prohibits "greater good" from being accomplished, then who is enabling the trip?
> 
> We can stamp "God" on anything we do, that does not mean he did it.  Prayer, discernment, are all good things.  I have a friend on a mission trip in India as we speak.  He is doing good things.  That does not mean every "mission trip" is "God ordained."



Paul persecuted the church because God told him to do it.
The problem:  It was a lie!
Great thought should be put into every decision we make in life, be it for mission work or how to support my family.
Praying to God and doing what "I" want to do isn't going to always find what's right.  Sometimes, we'll make the wrong decision.  Get over it!  God will.
It takes maturity, and the wisdom to make the right decision (no matter what others might think), and being comfortable in what we/you do.

There is no answer that will suffice in all situations.


----------



## gtparts

Before you judge and criticize the path God may have prepared for others in short-term mission work or those called to partner in that effort with financial support:

It helps to remember that God doesn't always call the qualified, but He always qualifies the called. 

Noah knew nothing of building arks. David, a mere shepherd boy, was not experienced in warfare. Moses was the son of Hebrew slaves. Saul did his best to eliminate the followers of Jesus. Rahab was just another prostitute. Mary (Jesus' mom) was just a small town girl.

And Jesus, a homeless country preacher/teacher, with no steady income and just a bunch of fishermen and a tax collector for friends. 

As surely as God makes much of little, He also makes little of those who believe they are "all that". He exalts the humble and the least shall be made great. There is great joy in being a servant to the house of the LORD and to His people.


----------



## thedeacon

gtparts said:


> Before you judge and criticize the path God may have prepared for others in short-term mission work or those called to partner in that effort with financial support:
> 
> It helps to remember that God doesn't always call the qualified, but He always qualifies the called.
> 
> Noah knew nothing of building arks. David, a mere shepherd boy, was not experienced in warfare. Moses was the son of Hebrew slaves. Saul did his best to eliminate the followers of Jesus. Rahab was just another prostitute. Mary (Jesus' mom) was just a small town girl.
> 
> And Jesus, a homeless country preacher/teacher, with no steady income and just a bunch of fishermen and a tax collector for friends.
> 
> As surely as God makes much of little, He also makes little of those who believe they are "all that". He exalts the humble and the least shall be made great. There is great joy in being a servant to the house of the LORD and to His people.



AMEN

I do believe you get it.


----------



## across the river

dawg2 said:


> Help me out with this one.
> 
> My wife and I get letters occasionally from people we know asking for donations.  These people want to go on a mission trip.  The ones we have been getting are for destinations in Latin America.
> 
> Rub #1:  Why do they ask for us to help fund their trip?  They aren't asking for money to help the mission, they are asking for money to pay their airfare and expenses to go there.
> 
> Example:  The latest letter I got asks for donations towards a $1,500 goal.  Airfare is $1,200 so I am guessing the remaining amount pays for food/expenses.
> 
> Rub #2:  They don't speak the language.  What benefit do they bring to the table if they can't even talk to the people in their native tongue?
> 
> Rub#3:  Why don't they fund their own airfare and expenses and use the donations to help with the mission?
> 
> 
> I just have an issue with donating towards what I see as a vacation.  Before anybody tries to lecture me on Latin America, I am well versed on the area since I have both lived and worked ain Latin America.  I have always tried to do something "extra" while there to help out.  But I just don't see how a group of Americans who don't know the culture, customs, language, etc. are going to fly down there and make a difference by "being there" on someone else's dime.



Many of the trips to South America are to Honduras.   The average wage there for a *year* is a roughly $1000/year there and the majority of people in the rural areas live in mud huts with dirt floors.  There is an organization in Honduras that depends on church groups to come in and help mud walls, lay cement floors, and put up roofs.  The groups typically spend a week in a village and that is typically the only "help" the village gets for a year.  So you may sit back in your comfy chair here in the u.s. and call it a vacation, but if you actually went on one of the trips and worked for a week, you might see things a little differently.   If you have never actually been outside of the U.S. (or for some people Georgia) you don't have a true appreciation for what poor is.  Putting up a tin roof our pouring a concrete floor may sound like something we do in our shop out back, but for much of the world a concrete floor in their house is something special.   If you don't want to give them money don't give them money, but you might want to actually go on one before you say the people going on them are going on "vacation."   Much to the contrary, they are probably doing more manual labor in that week than you will do in a year.   When it the last time you hand mixed cement or mudded a wall?


----------



## JB0704

across the river said:


> Many of the trips to South America are to Honduras.   The average wage there for a *year* is a roughly $1000/year there and the majority of people in the rural areas live in mud huts with dirt floors.



How much is the airfare for a round trip to Honduras?  Seems to me money stretches far there.  Perhaps we could stay home, send the cash, and feed a family for a year.



across the river said:


> There is an organization in Honduras that depends on church groups to come in and help mud walls, lay cement floors, and put up roofs.



So, there is a local resource to send money to.  




across the river said:


> So you may sit back in your comfy chair here in the u.s. and call it a vacation, but if you actually went on one of the trips and worked for a week, you might see things a little differently.



No need to get condescending here.  Lot's of folks on this forum have extensive knowledge about these trips.  Some of them are, indeed, glorified vacations.  Some are worthy causes as well.



across the river said:


> If you have never actually been outside of the U.S. (or for some people Georgia) you don't have a true appreciation for what poor is.  Putting up a tin roof our pouring a concrete floor may sound like something we do in our shop out back, but for much of the world a concrete floor in their house is something special.



Right, and they can't build more if we didn't spend all that money on airfare?



across the river said:


> If you don't want to give them money don't give them money, but you might want to actually go on one before you say the people going on them are going on "vacation."   Much to the contrary, they are probably doing more manual labor in that week than you will do in a year.



But, what if you know folks who have gone, and understand, that many of these trips are vacations?


----------



## Huntinfool

> How much is the airfare for a round trip to Honduras? Seems to me money stretches far there. Perhaps we could stay home, send the cash, and feed a family for a year.



...and how will the money, alone, bring the gospel to them?  Who will disciple them?

I know what you're getting at.  But it also sounds very much like a "throw money at the problem" type of solution.


----------



## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> ...and how will the money, alone, bring the gospel to them?  Who will disciple them?.



The assumption is the local resources in Honduras are faith based.



Huntinfool said:


> ...I know what you're getting at.  But it also sounds very much like a "throw money at the problem" type of solution.



In a way, yes. Think of all the money and all the people and time as one big pot of "good stew."  How do we use all of that "good stew" to "feed" the most people?


----------



## gtparts

Huntinfool said:


> You're letting accounting logic supercede a calling from what I can tell...that's how.  At least that's how it reads to me.
> 
> If God calls you to minister to "this one"....whether it makes debits and credits line up is of no consequence.
> 
> I am not suggesting that either you or I is called to take the gospel to "this one" (that I don't know)...but someone is (that I DO know)...and someone will waste their money by your logic because the parable of the talents apparently tells us that's an unwise investment.





JB0704 said:


> How much is the airfare for a round trip to Honduras?  Seems to me money stretches far there.  Perhaps we could stay home, send the cash, and feed a family for a year.



I think you miss the point. Just throwing money at the issues faced by the poor in this world can be done in a very sanitary way. But part of loving and reaching others for Christ demands relationship. Till you actually do the will of the Father in a way that builds relationships, until you get some dirt under your fingernails, sleep on a concrete or dirt floor, work side-by-side with those people, you cannot know or appreciate what it means to the people ministered to. When you hold a sick or malnourished child in your lap or finish building a home for a homeless family of seven who could never do it for themselves, there is a connection made with them and with our own humanity. 

Going yourself may not be the most efficient or the most cost-effective way to "solve the problem", but the problem is more than fiscal poverty. The need is for hope, for human touch, to find out that others do care and value you. The love of God is best expressed by investing yourself in others, not in a check sent to a p.o. box. Staying home and writing a check when you are fully capable of going yourself is also highly unlikely to transform your heart. 

I know personally. A number of years ago, I was made aware of the callouses forming on my heart. I prayed for God to change my heart, to make me sensitive to others, to love as Jesus loves. I am not where I want to be, but I am not where I was, thank God.

As for investing Jesus in others, it is always a bargain, regardless of the cost.

 "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." 

                     - Jim Elliot -


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## dawg2

across the river said:


> Many of the trips to South America are to Honduras.   The average wage there for a *year* is a roughly $1000/year there and the majority of people in the rural areas live in mud huts with dirt floors.  There is an organization in Honduras that depends on church groups to come in and help mud walls, lay cement floors, and put up roofs.  The groups typically spend a week in a village and that is typically the only "help" the village gets for a year.  So you may sit back in your comfy chair here in the u.s. and call it a vacation, but if you actually went on one of the trips and worked for a week, you might see things a little differently.   If you have never actually been outside of the U.S. (or for some people Georgia) you don't have a true appreciation for what poor is.  Putting up a tin roof our pouring a concrete floor may sound like something we do in our shop out back, but for much of the world a concrete floor in their house is something special.   If you don't want to give them money don't give them money, but you might want to actually go on one before you say the people going on them are going on "vacation."   Much to the contrary, they are probably doing more manual labor in that week than you will do in a year.   When it the last time you hand mixed cement or mudded a wall?



You obviously did not read my last paragraph.  I lived and worked in Latin America and am very familiar with exactly how life is in those areas.  I have stayed with indian tribes that lived on sandbars in the middle of the ocean where water had to be paddled in with a cayuga.  I have trekked into the Darien jungle that most Americans have never even seen pictures of.    

Like I said, there are some missions that I support and have participated, but there are some that to me look like nothing but a "poor-tour" so someone can say "I saw it."


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## Huntinfool

> In a way, yes. Think of all the money and all the people and time as one big pot of "good stew." How do we use all of that "good stew" to "feed" the most people?




So, then, it's ok to spend the money for the flight for the first person to go and be there.  What about the second?  The third?

I assume, at some point, we start to see diminishing returns from sending the next person over?  How do we know when we've reached that point?

What about the restoration of those who are there long-term?  Any value in sending people short-term to "relieve them", give them some one on one encouragement and help them get bigger projects done more quickly?

Any personal value to those who go short-term?  Obviously, mission work is focussed on those being served.  But does the servant get any benefit from it?  How do you feel when you know you've really helped meet someone's need?  Is it a different feeling than had you given them money to solve their own problem?  Do you think that feeling is an accident?


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## gtparts

Huntinfool said:


> So, then, it's ok to spend the money for the flight for the first person to go and be there.  What about the second?  The third?
> 
> I assume, at some point, we start to see diminishing returns from sending the next person over?  How do we know when we've reached that point?
> 
> What about the restoration of those who are there long-term?  Any value in sending people short-term to "relieve them", give them some one on one encouragement and help them get bigger projects done more quickly?
> 
> Any personal value to those who go short-term?  Obviously, mission work is focussed on those being served.  But does the servant get any benefit from it?  How do you feel when you know you've really helped meet someone's need?  Is it a different feeling than had you given them money to solve their own problem?  Do you think that feeling is an accident?



Good words, HF.
Many long-term missionaries started out as short-term missionaries. Had they missed the first opportunity to serve, they may never have found their calling.

I have long wondered how many Christians have lived their whole lives without a real sense of their calling. I guess if a Christian doesn't do anything but take care of himself and family, he can feel like he has done what he was "called" to do. Others find their calling by stepping out in faith, attempting, in His strength, things they would have never tried otherwise.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> So, then, it's ok to spend the money for the flight for the first person to go and be there.  What about the second?  The third??



Yes. Maybe. Maybe.



Huntinfool said:


> I assume, at some point, we start to see diminishing returns from sending the next person over?  How do we know when we've reached that point?



Yes. When the overall mission becomes hindered.  Remember, I do not see it from a one man perspective, but a global perspective.



Huntinfool said:


> What about the restoration of those who are there long-term?  Any value in sending people short-term to "relieve them", give them some one on one encouragement and help them get bigger projects done more quickly?



Absolutely!  But, this is before the diminishing returns, and a necessary part of the process.



Huntinfool said:


> Any personal value to those who go short-term?



Yes. 



Huntinfool said:


> How do you feel when you know you've really helped meet someone's need?  Is it a different feeling than had you given them money to solve their own problem?  Do you think that feeling is an accident?



When I help somebody, I feel as if I am doing my job.  I help as often as I can, but I should do more.  When I do help somebody, I always feel very strange when they say "thanks."  I don't like it.  I feel it is our job to help.  And, ultimately, I am not serving the individual, but God.

It is a different way of looking at it, but I have spent a long time "getting dirt under my nails" on domestic "missions."  I feel very strongly about service, and feel miserable when I am not serving in one way or the other.  But, I do not do it for the thank-you's.  It makes me very uncomfortable because I do not see it as a personal accomplishment, but instead, part of the priviledge of being a Christian.


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## Huntinfool

JB,

I think this is just one of those issues where you and I don't see eye to eye.


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## JB0704

Huntinfool said:


> JB,
> 
> I think this is just one of those issues where you and I don't see eye to eye.



Could be, but I don't see that we are disagreeing too much either.  We just emphasize different parts of the process.

Either way, it's good to kind-of but heads again


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## Ronnie T

Huntinfool said:


> JB,
> 
> I think this is just one of those issues where you and I don't see eye to eye.



I think it's perfectly acceptable for you two to disagree.
It isn't important that the two of you be God's stewards in the same way.
Neither of you are wrong.  You're both right.


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## Huntinfool

Ronnie....I thought I told you this already.  

I'm always right.  JB (and anybody else who disagrees with me) is always wrong.  Can we sticky this or something?  People seem to keep getting confused on the rules.


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## bearhunter75

You just need to do what you feel led to do. If that is to give, then do it. What or how they spend the money on is between them and god. But, you did what you were supposed to do and it's out of your hands.


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## rejfoxtrot

Went to Peru on a mission trip in 2010. I guess you could call it a vacation since I took my one and only paid vacation week of the year to go. Was really eye opening and I doubt I slept 15 hours the whole trip because we were so busy doing ministry. I can definitely see a concern of funding people who might be looking for a free ride or who might have the wrong motives for going, we had a large group that went with us and i'm sure there were a few who were just along for the ride and didn't really care about spreading the Gospel. As mentioned already prayer about the individuals will let you know to give or not give. God is certainly capable of turning their own hearts towards him and his work.


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