# What do Athiest derive self worth from.



## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

The Judeao-Christian worldview holds that our life is sacred, because we are created in the image of God.  Atheism doesn't address this.  Some Atheist deny the very concept, but most seem to at least tacitly accept it, hence my question.

I'm not just speaking of only personal self worth, but that of any human being.
(This was edited in after the first reply)


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## David Parker (May 23, 2013)

Not convinced I'm qualified to answer but my spirituality doesn't parallel Judeao-Christian or anything organized for that matter.  My self worth is derived from my actual accomplishments and actions.  It's real-time acknowledgment of building a flower box, or helping my kid with his math homework, or replacing a roof on my house.


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## stringmusic (May 23, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Not convinced I'm qualified to answer but my spirituality doesn't parallel Judeao-Christian or anything organized for that matter.  My self worth is derived from my actual accomplishments and actions.  It's real-time acknowledgment of building a flower box, or helping my kid with his math homework, or replacing a roof on my house.



What happens to your self worth when you make mistakes?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

David Parker said:


> Not convinced I'm qualified to answer but my spirituality doesn't parallel Judeao-Christian or anything organized for that matter.  My self worth is derived from my actual accomplishments and actions.  It's real-time acknowledgment of building a flower box, or helping my kid with his math homework, or replacing a roof on my house.



I'm not just speaking of personal self worth, but that of any human being.


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## hunter rich (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not just speaking of personal self worth, but that of any human being.



I can not have "SELF worth" for anyone but my SELF...


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## David Parker (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not just speaking of personal self worth, but that of any human being.



huh?


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## David Parker (May 23, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> What happens to your self worth when you make mistakes?



It becomes less valuable


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## TheBishop (May 23, 2013)

I can't speak for atheism, becuase it is NOT a congruent group, or sect, or anything like you make it out to be. But I not being a "christian" in your eyes, (again something you are attempting to define narrowly, which is intellectually dishonest), see life as more valuable becuase it's our one, and only one. It's short, make it sweet, there is nothing afterward.  

Who are these christians you speak of? Which sect is right? Which, in their vastly differing ritual, moral, and ethical style has it right? Southern baptist? Catholics? Quakers? Protestant? Methodist? Greek Orthodox? Lutheran? Penecostal?

Stop looking at the world through the key hole, open the door, and you will realize how small a picture you have been seeing.


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## drippin' rock (May 23, 2013)

Family, friends,    








Beer......


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## bullethead (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The Judeao-Christian worldview holds that our life is sacred, because we are created in the image of God.  Atheism doesn't address this.  Some Atheist deny the very concept, but most seem to at least tacitly accept it, hence my question.
> 
> I'm not just speaking of only personal self worth, but that of any human being.
> (This was edited in after the first reply)



All that lives on after a person is gone is the impact they have made in other people lives while they were still here.


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## drippin' rock (May 23, 2013)

Where does anyone that is not a Christian get their self worth?  Do you believe that there is no self worth without God?  If someone rejects the idea of God, but still finds worth in a job well done, or the love in their child's eye, are they just mistaken?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

hunter rich said:


> I can not have "SELF worth" for anyone but my SELF...



So you don't agree others have self worth


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> I can't speak for atheism, becuase it is NOT a congruent group, or sect, or anything like you make it out to be.



I didn't make it out to be any way.  I asked the question, because I know it encompasses so many views.



TheBishop said:


> But I not being a "christian" in your eyes, (again something you are attempting to define narrowly, which is intellectually dishonest), see life as more valuable becuase it's our one, and only one. It's short, make it sweet, there is nothing afterward.



That wasn't the question, but thanks anyway.



TheBishop said:


> Who are these christians you speak of? Which sect is right? Which, in their vastly differing ritual, moral, and ethical style has it right? Southern baptist? Catholics? Quakers? Protestant? Methodist? Greek Orthodox? Lutheran? Penecostal?



Do you know any Christians who deny the Biblical concept that we are created in the image of God?  I honestly don't.



TheBishop said:


> Stop looking at the world through the key hole, open the door, and you will realize how small a picture you have been seeing.



Jeez.  Really?  I mean REALLY?


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## SemperFiDawg (May 23, 2013)

drippin' rock said:


> Where does anyone that is not a Christian get their self worth?



That's my question.

Do you believe that there is no self worth without God?  

Personal self worth ....maybe,  depending on how it's defined.  Granting that same self worth to everyone else.   Hmmmmm.   It may exist somewhat, but certainly not to the level that Jesus called Christians to.  

If someone rejects the idea of God, but still finds worth in a job well done, or the love in their child's eye, are they just mistaken?[/QUOTE]

Of course not, but what about those who can't, don't work.  Do you grant them that sme self worth?  As far as love, what do you attribute its origin to?  Where does it come from?


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## bullethead (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Do you know any Christians who deny the Biblical concept that we are created in the image of God?  I honestly don't.



Yes. There are Christians that also believe in evolution. They believe in salvation through Christ but also believe that we got here through evolution.


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## JFS (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Do you know any Christians who deny the Biblical concept that we are created in the image of God?



Given the other running discussion about how god is so exceptional (e.g. outside time etc), it struck me when I read this that I really don't know what it means to be made in the image of god


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## drippin' rock (May 23, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> That's my question.
> 
> Do you believe that there is no self worth without God?
> 
> ...



Of course not, but what about those who can't, don't work.  Do you grant them that sme self worth?  As far as love, what do you attribute its origin to?  Where does it come from?[/QUOTE]


Maybe I am missing the point. Self worth can't be granted. If someone doesn't work, then it is up to them to find their own brand of worth. I can't grant anyone 'worth'. It is a strictly personal evaluation.


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## ted_BSR (May 23, 2013)

TheBishop said:


> I can't speak for atheism, becuase it is NOT a congruent group, or sect, or anything like you make it out to be. But I not being a "christian" in your eyes, (again something you are attempting to define narrowly, which is intellectually dishonest), see life as more valuable becuase it's our one, and only one. It's short, make it sweet, there is nothing afterward.
> 
> Who are these christians you speak of? Which sect is right? Which, in their vastly differing ritual, moral, and ethical style has it right? Southern baptist? Catholics? Quakers? Protestant? Methodist? Greek Orthodox? Lutheran? Penecostal?
> 
> Stop looking at the world through the key hole, open the door, and you will realize how small a picture you have been seeing.




In red, yes, the definition is narrow. Do you believe in the life, death and resurrection of Christ to atone for your sins? If no, then you are not a Christian.

In Blue, see the first response.

In Green, My keyhole is bigger than yours by your own definition. I don't limit myself to logic and science. I believe in another dimension that you refuse to see.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 24, 2013)

bullethead said:


> Yes. There are Christians that also believe in evolution. They believe in salvation through Christ but also believe that we got here through evolution.



Origin and Image are two totally different concepts.  I believe in evolution to a point, but I fully believe we are made in the image of God also.  Accepting the former doesn't necessarily negate the latter.


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## hunter rich (May 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I'm not just speaking of personal self worth, but that of any human being.





hunter rich said:


> I can not have "SELF worth" for anyone but my SELF...





SemperFiDawg said:


> So you don't agree others have self worth



How do you get to this ???  

By definition SELF worth is worth in ones SELF...So I cannot in any way shape or form have SELF worth for others...I can also not say if anyone has SELF worth in themselves...


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## stringmusic (May 24, 2013)

hunter rich said:


> How do you get to this ???
> 
> By definition SELF worth is worth in ones SELF...So I cannot in any way shape or form have SELF worth for others...I can also not say if anyone has SELF worth in themselves...



I think the point is, do you believe other people have worth, and where do they derive this worth from?


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## Four (May 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> The Judeao-Christian worldview holds that our life is sacred, because we are created in the image of God.  Atheism doesn't address this.  Some Atheist deny the very concept, but most seem to at least tacitly accept it, hence my question.
> 
> I'm not just speaking of only personal self worth, but that of any human being.
> (This was edited in after the first reply)



Worth /  Value is a subjective concept.

Personally, i like myself and my life. I have a great time, and its even more valuable because i know it's limited. The same reasons why they say to enjoy your family while you have them, or enjoy your childhood while it lasts... i just apply this to all the time i have alive.

In terms of the human species I see it has a lot more value relative to other species. The emotional, mental capabilities far outpace others.  People are ingenious, amazing, clever, adaptable. I enjoy conversations with them, drinking with them, hunting with them, etc.


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## TripleXBullies (May 24, 2013)

JFS said:


> Given the other running discussion about how god is so exceptional (e.g. outside time etc), it struck me when I read this that I really don't know what it means to be made in the image of god



I agree... my 2d shadow can't comprehend the 3d that is me that cast it... Or the light that is around it... So why try? It's impossible...


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## hunter rich (May 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> I think the point is, do you believe other people have worth, and where do they derive this worth from?



If by worth you mean do I value human life ?  Yes. With qualifiers.  If I am not aware of you than you have no worth to me.  If you have done something that directly affects me or my family/friends in a negative manner than you have no worth to me.


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## stringmusic (May 24, 2013)

hunter rich said:


> If by worth you mean do I value human life ?  Yes. With qualifiers.  If I am not aware of you than you have no worth to me.  If you have done something that directly affects me or my family/friends in a negative manner than you have no worth to me.



Why do you value human life? If humans are just carbon that came together by chance through evolution, what makes them have any more worth than a pile of rocks?

edit: These questions are based on the fact that I can't remember if you consider yourself an atheist or agnostic.


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## WTM45 (May 24, 2013)

Maybe the bigger question is...  Does one's religious beliefs contribute greatly towards the perception that their individual worth is higher than others, especially non-believers?

Two words... manifest destiny.


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## stringmusic (May 24, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Maybe the bigger question is...  Does one's religious beliefs contribute greatly towards the perception that their individual worth is higher than others, especially non-believers?



I'm sure it does, but it shouldn't. Christianity puts all of humanity on the same playing field.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 24, 2013)

hunter rich said:


> How do you get to this ???
> 
> By definition SELF worth is worth in ones SELF...So I cannot in any way shape or form have SELF worth for others...I can also not say if anyone has SELF worth in themselves...



Ill be the first to admit it's a poorly phrased question.  In hindsight I should have phrased is such as "Is life sacred and if so what do you attribute it to?  or something similar.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 24, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Maybe the bigger question is...  Does one's religious beliefs contribute greatly towards the perception that their individual worth is higher than others, especially non-believers?
> 
> Two words... manifest destiny.



Actually Christianity puts others above us.


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## hunter rich (May 24, 2013)

stringmusic said:


> Why do you value human life? If humans are just carbon that came together by chance through evolution, what makes them have any more worth than a pile of rocks?
> 
> edit: These questions are based on the fact that I can't remember if you consider yourself an atheist or agnostic.



Never stated what i consider myself....

I don't know why I value human life...maybe it was due to my upbringing, or maybe like Four says...(paraphrasing here) its limited in time and its fun so enjoy it and others to the limit...


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## SemperFiDawg (May 24, 2013)

hunter rich said:


> If by worth you mean do I value human life ?  Yes. With qualifiers.  If I am not aware of you than you have no worth to me.



This is why I don't hunt on WMAs.


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## JB0704 (May 24, 2013)

WTM45 said:


> Maybe the bigger question is...  Does one's religious beliefs contribute greatly towards the perception that their individual worth is higher than others, especially non-believers?



It depends on the application of beliefs.

On one level, I believe an atheist will have a greater sense of self-worth because they will see themselves as temporary (see Achilles speech in "Troy" on why the gods envy man).  

If a Christian believes they (humans in general) are made in God's image, then they will see themselves as more important in the big picture than a collection of carbon and water.

Either way, both worldviews are capable of elevating human value, or downgrading it.  I do not believe one system will inherently have a greater "self-worth," but that such value is assigned on an individual level.


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## JB0704 (May 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is why I don't hunt on WMAs.





....oh, and same here.


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## hunter rich (May 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is why I don't hunt on WMAs.





I am aware of other hunters and my surroundings, and I am aware of what is beyond my intended target...  

But again...


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## stringmusic (May 24, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This is why I don't hunt on WMAs.


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## SemperFiDawg (May 24, 2013)

I honestly can't see where any of the "Isms" that Atheist use to define themselves elevate the worth of the individual.  Humanism is the most optimistic that I'm aware of, but I think the supporting evidence pales in comparison to the volume of evidence against it.  Additionally I'm unaware of any rational argument for the sanctity and sacredness of life from any of the Atheist camps.  In fact some camps deny the concept completely.


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## WTM45 (May 24, 2013)

JB0704 said:


> It depends on the application of beliefs.
> 
> On one level, I believe an atheist will have a greater sense of self-worth because they will see themselves as temporary (see Achilles speech in "Troy" on why the gods envy man).
> 
> ...



Excellent response.  Excellent!

I can agree fully that the extremes of anything should not be considered the norm.


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