# now this is sick



## Spotlite (May 5, 2010)

Saw it on the news last night. Its obvious these "pastors" need to go to Bible study and get some teaching before they try to lead.


>>>>>>>>>Largest Lutheran group reinstating 2 gay ministers
By KATE BRUMBACK , Associated Press 

Last update: May 4, 2010 - 6:59 PM
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ATLANTA - A gay Atlanta pastor and his partner who have been at the center of a battle over the treatment of gay clergy by the nation's largest Lutheran denomination are being reinstated to the denomination's clergy roster, church officials announced Tuesday.

The Rev. Bradley Schmeling and his partner, the Rev. Darin Easler, have been approved for reinstatement, the Chicago-based Evangelical Lutheran Church in America said in a news release. The approval came roughly eight months after the denomination voted to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy, and just weeks after the ELCA's church council officially revised the church's policy on gay ministers.

Schmeling, who serves as pastor of St. John's Lutheran Church in Atlanta, was removed from the church's clergy roster in 2007 for being in a same-sex relationship with Easler. A disciplinary committee ruled that Schmeling was violating an ELCA policy regarding the sexual conduct of pastors.

"I'm grateful that this journey has come full circle and that the church has changed its policy," Schmeling said Tuesday.

"I think the church saw the gifts and the abilities of gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people and saw that the spirit was calling them into ministry and wanted to create a way for people to serve," he said.

The reinstatement will become effective "once the paperwork has been filed," which should happen in the coming days or weeks, he said.

At their biennial national convention in August, ELCA leaders called for revisions to ministry policy documents, making it possible for "eligible Lutherans in publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships" to serve as clergy, the church said in the statement. The ELCA Church Council adopted those revisions April 10.

The candidacy committee of the ELCA Southeastern Synod in Atlanta met two weeks later and approved Schmeling's request for reinstatement.

Even though Schmeling had been removed from the ELCA clergy roster, he remained pastor at St. John's, putting the church in violation of ELCA guidelines, said the Rev. H. Julian Gordy, bishop of the ELCA Southeastern Synod.
"There are people in our church that believe that pastors in publicly accountable, lifelong, monogamous, same-gender relationships should not serve as pastors in this church," Gordy said in the church statement. "But the assembly said that while we were not in agreement on this, congregations could call persons in such relationship to serve as pastors, and St. John has chosen to do this."
Despite the opposition from some to the change in church policy, "I believe that we will learn to live in this new reality," Gordy said.
"This congregation has always been clear in its affirmation and support of our relationship," Schmeling said. "When I told them that I had met my partner for life, they threw us a party. When they heard that we were both reinstated to the clergy roster, there was a spontaneous standing ovation in church on Sunday."
Ann Gerondelis, 51, who has attended St. John's since 1981, said the congregation never saw Schmeling any differently after he was removed from the clergy roll, but they were still thrilled to hear he would be reinstated.
"I'm very excited to be a part of the ELCA at this time," she said. "The ELCA has now shown it is committed to unity. ... We're bound together with people who may not see things the same way we do but that's an important part of our journey."
Easler said he left United Redeemer Lutheran Church in Zumbrota, Minn., in 2003 because he disagreed with the church's policy and also because he wanted to minister to people in a hospital and hospice setting. He and Schmeling met at a church conference in Minnesota in 2004, and he moved to Atlanta to be with Schmeling the following year.
Easler was removed from the clergy roster in 2006 after having been without a parish for three years, the church said in a statement. He transferred to the United Church of Christ, which is a full communion partner of the ELCA, and worked in hospice care as a bereavement coordinator.

He recently applied to the candidacy committee of the ELCA's Southeastern Minnesota Synod in Rochester and was approved April 30. He plans to continue his hospice work under the auspices of the ELCA.
"I just feel so grateful to be able to come back to my church home and church family, and I'm grateful to be able to share with the church both my love and my gifts for ministry but also the love for my partner," Easler said.
Schmeling said the reinstatement is good news for others as well.
"I'm happy for the many people who always hoped to be ordained as pastors now have an open pathway before them," he said.
___
Evangelical Lutheran Church of America: http://www.elca.org

Next page <<<<<<<<<<<<


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## Ronnie T (May 5, 2010)

That's not church.

That's "pretend" church.

Foolish people.


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## earl (May 5, 2010)

Bet they burn.


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## ronpasley (May 5, 2010)

The day will come when right is wrong and wrong is right.

 As we can see it is here not just by this but by much much more.

 Father have mercy on us thank you for victory in you Son.


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## gtparts (May 6, 2010)

The ELCA has flopped on this matter.



> The Rev. Bradley Schmeling and his partner, the Rev. Darin Easler, have been approved for reinstatement, the Chicago-based Evangelical Lutheran Church in America said in a news release. The approval came roughly eight months after the denomination voted to allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy, and just weeks after the ELCA's church council officially revised the church's policy on gay ministers.



God doesn't have that problem (flopping).



> "I'm grateful that this journey has come full circle and that the church has changed its policy," Schmeling said Tuesday.



Schmeling will undoubtedly be disappointed when he finds out God has not changed His opinion of sin. The leadership of the ELCA will also find themselves to be in opposition to God in this matter.


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

earl said:


> Bet they burn.



should they continue their current path.......................they are for sure  not freeze


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## Desert Soldier (May 6, 2010)

While I am in agreement that these men should not be pastors, I will stop short of judging their salvation. We all have sins we commit.


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## pnome (May 6, 2010)

Homosexual Christian ministers.  

Why would you actively propagate a religion that thinks you are an "abomination"?  

It just makes no sense!


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## rjcruiser (May 6, 2010)

pnome said:


> Homosexual Christian ministers.
> 
> Why would you actively propagate a religion that thinks you are an "abomination"?
> 
> It just makes no sense!



yup...reminds me of Jude.

So often, people want to find the common ground.  Yet, we need to hold fast to the Faith (Doctrine) that was taught by Christ.


3Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. 

 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.


oh...and Desert Soldier/Earl, we are not judging these folks...God has already done this.  Look at verse 4 above.  He has marked out for condemnation their sin long before we ever walked this earth.


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## WTM45 (May 6, 2010)

pnome said:


> Homosexual Christian ministers.
> 
> Why would you actively propagate a religion that thinks you are an "abomination"?
> 
> It just makes no sense!



They desire the same exclusivity and promise of eternity other followers do.
And the higher status, authority and perks that go with being a religious leader are just as attractive to them too.

Private clubs with private rules.  Why care?


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## pnome (May 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> They desire the same exclusivity and promise of eternity other followers do.



Promise of eternity?  The Christian "heaven" has a sign on the gate that reads:
No Homosexuals Allowed!




> And the higher status, authority and perks that go with being a religious leader are just as attractive to them too.
> 
> Private clubs with private rules.  Why care?



Now this makes a certain amount of sense.  But not in this case. St. John's Lutheran Church doesn't look to be some mega church with tons of money.  The pay can't be _that_ good.

Maybe it's the tax exemptions.


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## Huntinfool (May 6, 2010)

> Promise of eternity? The Christian "heaven" has a sign on the gate that reads:
> No Homosexuals Allowed!



They don't think it does....for some reason.


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## gtparts (May 6, 2010)

pnome said:


> Promise of eternity?  The Christian "heaven" has a sign on the gate that reads:
> No Homosexuals Allowed!
> 
> 
> ...




The Message offers this from Paul, in his letter to the Galatians.



Gal. 5:19-21

It is obvious what kind of life develops out of trying to get your own way all the time: repetitive, loveless, cheap sex; a stinking accumulation of mental and emotional garbage; frenzied and joyless grabs for happiness; trinket gods; magic-show religion; paranoid loneliness; cutthroat competition; all-consuming-yet-never-satisfied wants; a brutal temper; an impotence to love or be loved; divided homes and divided lives; small-minded and lopsided pursuits; the vicious habit of depersonalizing everyone into a rival; uncontrolled and uncontrollable addictions; ugly parodies of community. I could go on.

   This isn't the first time I have warned you, you know. If you use your freedom this way, you will not inherit God's kingdom.  

The Bible makes numerous references to what disqualifies an individual from heaven (an unrepentent heart). 

As sins go, no sin is more significant or less significant than another.


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## pnome (May 6, 2010)

gtparts said:


> magic-show religion



That's a good one.  I'm gonna save that for later.


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## christianhunter (May 6, 2010)

I have nothing of eloquence,or adversity to say.I'm not going to quote Scripture on this.Even the unbeliever knows it is not right,or at least should.THE LORD GOD will Judge this now,and has already,judged it in the past.It is sick,and it is Satan at work at his best.


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## FishHunt (May 6, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> .. it is Satan at work at his best.



I've always gotten the impression that for many Christians homosexuality is the ultimate sin.   It's not for me but there are much worse things than two consenting adults living that lifestyle.


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## Huntinfool (May 6, 2010)

> .. it is Satan at work at his best.



...like he said.


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## jmar28 (May 6, 2010)

No comment cause I'll get bombarded for it


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## FishHunt (May 6, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> ...like he said.



Disagree....IMO, murderers, child molesters, thieves, liars etc. would rate higher on the devils best work list.


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## Huntinfool (May 6, 2010)

I was referring to your apparent dismissal of the sin as a "non-biggie".  Not what is better or worse.

IMO, his best work is reserved for tearing marriages apart.  But we'll have to agree to disagree.


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

Desert Soldier said:


> While I am in agreement that these men should not be pastors, I will stop short of judging their salvation. We all have sins we commit.



You dont really have to judge an apple tree to look at it and see that it bears no fruit.

And I dont buy that crap that we all have to sin a little each day. Im not perfect, Im 100% sure that I have done something daily, and thats why I pray daily. But I dang sure am not going out there daily and planning on doing it and planning on making it my permanent lifestyle.


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## formula1 (May 6, 2010)

*Re:*

Well,  I don't think Martin would be proud!!!

Repent means 'turn from sin' not accept it!


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## drhunter1 (May 6, 2010)

Desert Soldier said:


> While I am in agreement that these men should not be pastors, I will stop short of judging their salvation. We all have sins we commit.



I agree. Ones salvation is between the person and the Lord and not for us to determine. While my natural inclination is to be against this lifestyle, the Lord uses who he wishes for his purposes at his leasure.


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

drhunter1 said:


> While my natural inclination is to be against this lifestyle, the Lord uses who he wishes for his purposes at his leasure.



So you think its possible that the Lord would bless a gay ministry after he called it an abomination?

Sounds like you got to be on one side the fence or the other.


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## WTM45 (May 6, 2010)

What's left to bash?
Interracial marriage... check.
Homosexuals... check.
Catholics... check.
Muslims... check.

It's getting old, folks.  
Some honestly want people to listen to and learn about their beliefs and religion, but if they continue with the exclusivity and "better than thou" approach, well, get ready for outright rejection.


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## Ronnie T (May 6, 2010)

The problem with this subject is sin.  All of us have sins.  Preachers, Elders, Deacons.  All have sin.
Homosexuality is in the world and homosexuals have a right to hear the Gospel of Jesus and make decisions.

But in this case, a church of several hundred people have decided that God's statement that no homosexual will be allowed into His kingdom can be ignored.
And not only that, but homosexuals can now be selected to positions of leadership within Christ's church.
And not only that, but two homosexual Ministers can live together in a sexual relationship.

The greatest sin here lies in the church that sponsored and allowed this.
Martin Luther would indeed be upset.


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## pnome (May 6, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Martin Luther would indeed be upset.



Do you think Jesus would be?


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> What's left to bash?
> Interracial marriage... check.
> Homosexuals... check.
> Catholics... check.
> ...



Maybe the debate portion of this forum should not be visited by those that view debate as bashing. I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone has played the holier than thou platform. What I do see, is there are still some folks out there that has the backbone to call sin sin and not compromise and just pretend its not there.


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## earl (May 6, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> You dont really have to judge an apple tree to look at it and see that it bears no fruit.
> 
> And I dont buy that crap that we all have to sin a little each day. Im not perfect, Im 100% sure that I have done something daily, and thats why I pray daily. But I dang sure am not going out there daily and planning on doing it and planning on making it my permanent lifestyle.



 Are you saying you have zero bad habits ?


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

earl said:


> Are you saying you have zero bad habits ?


earl, stop being hard headed, read this sentence again.


Spotlite said:


> *Im not perfect, Im 100% sure that I have done something daily,* and thats why I pray daily. But I dang sure am not going out there daily and planning on doing it and planning on making it my permanent lifestyle.



Now a bad habit is picking your nose. The difference is these boys do not have any intentions on turning from their sin, they are incorporating into their lifestyle and making it a way of life and changing church policies to accept it. If this is the way it works, why even preach repentance? Just make it a way of life and forget about it.


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## crackerdave (May 6, 2010)

pnome said:


> Promise of eternity?  The Christian "heaven" has a sign on the gate that reads:
> No Homosexuals Allowed!
> 
> 
> ...



Your sig-line illustrates the fact that even _animals_ have sense enough not to have sex with the same gender.


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## crackerdave (May 6, 2010)

pnome said:


> Homosexual Christian ministers.
> 
> Why would you actively propagate a religion that thinks you are an "abomination"?
> 
> It just makes no sense!



It is not the sinner that is the abomination - it's the _sin._ Very simple,very clear in the Bible.


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## earl (May 6, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> earl, stop being hard headed, read this sentence again.
> 
> 
> Now a bad habit is picking your nose. The difference is these boys do not have any intentions on turning from their sin, they are incorporating into their lifestyle and making it a way of life and changing church policies to accept it. If this is the way it works, why even preach repentance? Just make it a way of life and forget about it.



Things I had in mind when I typed that were things like smoking,dipping, overeating . BTW, Booger pickin' is a sport.


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## crackerdave (May 6, 2010)

formula1 said:


> Well,  I don't think Martin would be proud!!!
> 
> Repent means 'turn from sin' not accept it!



Very true,and often forgotten.


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## Lowjack (May 6, 2010)

“Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come (namely, the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him”—II Thessalonians 2:1b) unless THE APOSTASY (Greek for “falling away”) comes first, AND the MAN OF SIN is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (II Thessalonians 2:3-4)


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## earl (May 6, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Your sig-line illustrates the fact that even _animals_ have sense enough not to have sex with the same gender.



What about the ones that can change sex ?


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## crackerdave (May 6, 2010)

earl said:


> Things I had in mind when I typed that were things like smoking,dipping, overeating . BTW, Booger pickin' is a sport.



As is "Booger Flickin'. "

The ones that can change sex? What - have sex with themselves? Don't git me started,earl!


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## WTM45 (May 6, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> Maybe the debate portion of this forum should not be visited by those that view debate as bashing. I don't see anywhere in this thread where anyone has played the holier than thou platform. What I do see, is there are still some folks out there that has the backbone to call sin sin and not compromise and just pretend its not there.



Maybe those who come here and loudly voice their personal opinions, however they were formed, need to spend a little more time cleaning the windows of their own glass abodes.
I include myself in that statement.

Remember, the religious belief system that is most often expressed here teaches that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.  So, let's go ahead and equally beat up on the  overweight gluttons, the thieving car salesperson, the cheating college student, the lying teenager, the cheating spouse, the stealing preacher, the nude dancer, the beer drinking truckdriver, the drug addicted inattentive mother..........

What's funny is these folks, and their church, don't give a flip what you or I think.  They have the right to not care too.
I think it is great!
No one will come into your church/social club and tell you and your people what to do.  Who should be telling them anything?
Let them deal with it.
They are used to the abuse, the homophobia, the prejudice.  I'm sure they can handle it.


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## crackerdave (May 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Maybe those who come here and loudly voice their personal opinions, however they were formed, need to spend a little more time cleaning the windows of their own glass abodes.
> I include myself in that statement.
> 
> Remember, the religious belief system that is most often expressed here teaches that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.  So, let's go ahead and equally beat up on the  overweight gluttons, the thieving car salesperson, the cheating college student, the lying teenager, the cheating spouse, the stealing preacher, the nude dancer, the beer drinking truckdriver, the drug addicted inattentive mother..........
> ...



God.


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## WTM45 (May 6, 2010)

When they hear something, I'm sure they will listen to it.


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## gtparts (May 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Maybe those who come here and loudly voice their personal opinions, however they were formed, need to spend a little more time cleaning the windows of their own glass abodes.
> I include myself in that statement.
> 
> Remember, the religious belief system that is most often expressed here teaches that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.  So, let's go ahead and equally beat up on the  overweight gluttons, the thieving car salesperson, the cheating college student, the lying teenager, the cheating spouse, the stealing preacher, the nude dancer, the beer drinking truckdriver, the drug addicted inattentive mother..........
> ...



And there is the rub.......... while theses guys are content to dwell in this particular sin, they should in no way be subjected to abuse, homophobia, or hateful prejudice. From the instruction of Scripture, their continuing in sin is evident, so that their own actions condemn them.

Can I express compassion and sympathy towards the unrepentant? If I am a follower of Christ, I am commanded to love them with the love of God.... and I do. It does not mean that they get a pass on their behavior. It is what it is. No amount of sugarcoating or overlooking sin ever changes the very nature and penalty of sin. It is my desire that they repent, renouncing the homosexual lifestyle. That is what God wants them to do. I doubt that it will happen, as the governing body of their local church gives their support to this sexual sin, making them accomplices in that sin, and that extends to the ELCA that apparently condones such behavior, also.

The saddest thing in scripture (and throughout life) is the sinner who stands exposed to the truth of the Word of God and wills not to be obedient to the calling. 

We all struggle with sin, and one of the most difficult things for the homosexual is to see what seems natural to him or her as the sin of which God has called an abomination, and accept God's ruling on the matter.

The proper response of a Christian, and also one of the more difficult things to do, is to love the sinner and reject the sin, ....and this, regardless of the sin.


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## pnome (May 6, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> Your sig-line illustrates the fact that even _animals_ have sense enough not to have sex with the same gender.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Maybe those who come here and loudly voice their personal opinions, however they were formed, need to spend a little more time cleaning the windows of their own glass abodes.
> I include myself in that statement.
> 
> Remember, the religious belief system that is most often expressed here teaches that all sin is equal in the eyes of God.  So, let's go ahead and equally beat up on the  overweight gluttons, the thieving car salesperson, the cheating college student, the lying teenager, the cheating spouse, the stealing preacher, the nude dancer, the beer drinking truckdriver, the drug addicted inattentive mother..........
> ...



I couldnt agree more. And we were not tsalking about going and telling them what to do. The issue at hand is not throwing stones at a sinner. The sinner can be forgiven. Its the matter of just accepting it "because all sin is equal". Thats a cop out.  Its just a wake up call to the Christian world that this crap is creeping closer and closer. You do understand that this is one step closer to your own Pastor being charged a hate crime for not allowing a gay minister to preach in your own Church pulpit, right? At some point, we got to care. It will eventually affect you regardless if you turn your head away from it or not.  

As far as all these others, no need in beating them up either, but you dont see or hear news about the beer drinking truck driver, lying teenager, nude dancer etc come out in the open and say this is my lifestyle and the church is going to change its policies and not call it sin anymore. They usually just decide thats what they are gona do and go do it, they will at least keep it hid until they are caught then they resign.


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## earl (May 6, 2010)

crackerdave said:


> As is "Booger Flickin'. "
> 
> The ones that can change sex? What - have sex with themselves? Don't git me started,earl!




No .   There are animals that can change from male to female or viceversa as the need arises for whichever sex is in demand.


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## Spotlite (May 6, 2010)

There seems to be a misconception everytime this subject comes up. This is not about sending the homosexual to he!! faster than the overeating preacher. Both are wrong.

Its about the continual desire to overlook homosexual acts and accept it, but still climb behind the pulpit and preach against over eating, cheating, etc.

Its like boycotting the very thing your promoting.


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## Ronnie T (May 6, 2010)

Christ's church throughout the world needs to be outraged at this church in Etlanta and make sure all of the church understands that this sort of liberalization of God's will cannot become the norm.
Just because "they" did it, isn't a very good reason.

The scripture Lowjack posted is worth thinking about.


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## Ronnie T (May 6, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> There seems to be a misconception everytime this subject comes up. This is not about sending the homosexual to he!! faster than the overeating preacher. Both are wrong.
> 
> Its about the continual desire to overlook homosexual acts and accept it, but still climb behind the pulpit and preach against over eating, cheating, etc.
> 
> Its like boycotting the very thing your promoting.




Yes.  It about turning a sin into a perfectly accepted way of life within the church.


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## WTM45 (May 6, 2010)

Come on fellas.  
There are MULTIPLE interpretations of the Bible.  There are MULTIPLE churches and groups that see things differently than uber conservative fundamentalist Protestants.

Let's not act like this one example is something new.  It ain't.

Here's a short read with lots of examples and some source material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_Christianity


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## Ronnie T (May 6, 2010)

There are not multiple interpretations of what the Bible says concerning homosexuality.

One must totally ignore God's command; not misunderstand.

Anyway, I'm from a small town and never heard of those other folks.


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## thedeacon (May 6, 2010)

There are certein things that should be, a given, among Christians. In my opinion, this is one of them. The bible is very plain on the subject, just like murder.

If you can walk backwards crocked, you should be able to understand.


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## Spotlite (May 7, 2010)

We can justify anything we want by getting another interpretation. Sooner or later your bound to find an interpretation to your liking. But, does it coincide with the rest of the Bible, or just taken out of context to fit the agenda?


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## pnome (May 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Come on fellas.
> There are MULTIPLE interpretations of the Bible





> Leviticus 18:22  Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.



I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way.  There is no wiggle room there.

One thing about these fundamentalists.  They have read the Bible.  All of it.  Likely several times.  They know what it says and it is every bit as intolerant as they say it is.


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## Lead Poison (May 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> What's left to bash?
> Interracial marriage... check.
> Homosexuals... check.
> Catholics... check.
> ...



God considers Homosexuality an abomination. Period, end of story, print.


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Lead Poison said:


> God considers Homosexuality an abomination. Period, end of story, print.



Your god considers homsexuality an abomination.  The great thing about the U.S. is the freedom to chose who and what we worship.  As I see the bible as a great story book(thats actually not true, cuz If I really told you what I think it is, you really would be offended), you see it as the ultimate guide to life.  This your right as an american, to be homosexual christians is their right as americans.  YOU CANNOT TELL THEM OTHERWISE.  To do that would be infringing on their rights.  These people have the right to read the bible, interperet, omit, delete, any parts of it to make themselves feel better.


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## rjcruiser (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Your god considers homsexuality an abomination.  The great thing about the U.S. is the freedom to chose who and what we worship.  As I see the bible as a great story book(thats actually not true, cuz If I really told you what I think it is, you really would be offended), you see it as the ultimate guide to life.  This your right as an american, to be homosexual christians is their right as americans.  YOU CANNOT TELL THEM OTHERWISE.  To do that would be infringing on their rights.  These people have the right to read the bible, interperet, omit, delete, any parts of it to make themselves feel better.



Who's telling them how they have to live?

No one is telling them they have to be straight or they'll be imprisoned.

But, again, this is a free country.  We can all have our opinions....and most in this forum will tell you that they are living in sin and unless they repent, they're be judged by God when they die.


I think the bigger question at hand is why be part of a religion or club or whatever you want to call it that doesn't share your personal beliefs?  Just doesn't make sense to me.

Kinda like a black person wanting to be part of the kkk.  Just doesn't make sense.


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Who's telling them how they have to live?
> 
> No one is telling them they have to be straight or they'll be imprisoned.
> 
> ...



1. You got it right it is your opinion that they are living in sin, and will be judged.  

2. The majority of their denomination in their area must share there beliefs becuase the reinstatement was done by majority vote.  

Here some questions:

Is it sick becuase they are gay? 

Is it sick they are gay and claim to be christians, and interpret christianity different than you? 

Is it sick thats is even possible?


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

> 1. You got it right it is your opinion that they are living in sin, and will be judged.



Nope....this one if fact, you just don't realize it yet (and you seem kind of angry about it too)....and, yes, they will be judged along with the rest of us.



> 2. The majority of their denomination in their area must share there beliefs becuase the reinstatement was done by majority vote.



A majority vote of the leaders making a decision does not mean they are doing the will of the constituents.....if you haven't learned that recently from Congress, then you'll never understand that.



> Here some questions:
> 
> Is it sick becuase they are gay?



Nope, it's sick because the Church is allowing it....and it is clearly unbiblical.



> Is it sick thats is even possible?



No, I totally believe it's possible.  Things will get worse as the last days progress.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

Just a side note....I would LOVE to hear one of these guys preach a sermon on Romans Ch. 1.....the whole thing.  Ya know, expository like?

That would be an interesting day to be in church I think.


FWIW, I say that because I know without a doubt that what happened in Romans Ch 1, happened to me.  No, I was not involved in a homosexual relationship.  But I definitely exchanged the truth of God for a lie and he definitely turned me over to my selfish nature....and there were big consequences because of it.  So I don't use that chapter lightly when I speak of these guys.


----------



## Ronnie T (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Your god considers homsexuality an abomination.  The great thing about the U.S. is the freedom to chose who and what we worship.  As I see the bible as a great story book(thats actually not true, cuz If I really told you what I think it is, you really would be offended), you see it as the ultimate guide to life.  This your right as an american, to be homosexual christians is their right as americans.  YOU CANNOT TELL THEM OTHERWISE.  To do that would be infringing on their rights.  These people have the right to read the bible, interperet, omit, delete, any parts of it to make themselves feel better.



You're wrong.  Being an American doesn't give anyone the "right" to be whatever kind of Christian they want to be.

But being an American does give each person the right to be truthful to God's word or not.

God is the One who grants the Christian title to someone.
Either do it God's way...... or make up your own rules.  But that won't make you a Christian.


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Nope....this one if fact, you just don't realize it yet (and you seem kind of angry about it too)....and, yes, they will be judged along with the rest of us.
> 
> *I am angry with the insistence to accept what you believe is fact. It is not fact it is theological theory there is a huge difference.  A fact is something certain that can be proven.  I.E. fire burns paper, I can prove that with a lighter and a peice of paper.  Just becuase your book tells you does not make it a fact.*
> 
> ...



Things will only get worse if we do no choose to live as free men in a tolerant society.  Choosing to make things like this an issue when it is clearly not, is going to make things worse.  This is were men try to impose their beleifs on others. When those others do not choose those beliefs those men use the power or government to make them. Inviting nothing but tyranny. 

Fact: No institution throughout history has caused more death, destruction and oppression than religion.


----------



## rjcruiser (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Things will only get worse if we do no choose to live as free men in a tolerant society.  Choosing to make things like this an issue when it is clearly not, is going to make things worse.  This is were men try to impose their beleifs on others. When those others do not choose those beliefs those men use the power or government to make them. Inviting nothing but tyranny.
> 
> Fact: No institution throughout history has caused more death, destruction and oppression than religion.





I'd say government has caused more death.

and toleration is not what we need.  Seems that is how our country has gotten into the mess it is in right now.  Tolerant of crime, tolerant of terrorists, tolerant of illegals etc etc.


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> You're wrong.  Being an American doesn't give anyone the "right" to be whatever kind of Christian they want to be.
> 
> But being an American does give each person the right to be truthful to God's word or not.
> 
> ...



100% wrong.  

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --

If choosing to call my self a christian makes me happy than I may do so.  You may do it as well. You may not find me a christian under your terms, and that is your right but that does not negate mine.  You and your congregation may choose not to let me in and that is your right as well.  You may even be offended how I use the word christian but you have no right to dictate what I consider myself.


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd say government has caused more death.
> 
> 
> *Wanna bet?*
> ...



There is a big difference in complacentcy and tolerance. Men cannot exist in a free society and not be tolerant of others beliefs. Tyranny is intolerant, anarchy is intolerable, and liberty is tolerant.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> 100% wrong.
> 
> We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --
> 
> If choosing to call my self a christian makes me happy than I may do so.  You may do it as well. You may not find me a christian under your terms, and that is your right but that does not negate mine.  You and your congregation may choose not to let me in and that is your right as well.  You may even be offended how I use the word christian but you have no right to dictate what I consider myself.




You can CALL yourself and ostrich if you choose to.....that does not mean you will actually be an ostrich my friend.

Go on and "consider" yourself whatever you want.  Nobody is trying to stop you.  Heck, 75% of America "considers" itself Christian....that does not make them an ostrich either.

Many people "consider" themselves Christian.  The Bible lays out clearly for you how to "know".  It's right there...you should read it.  

Keep on "considering".  You're right, I can't stop ya.  I just find it much more comforting to "know".


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

> I am angry with the insistence to accept what you believe is fact. It is not fact it is theological theory there is a huge difference. A fact is something certain that can be proven. I.E. fire burns paper, I can prove that with a lighter and a peice of paper. Just becuase your book tells you does not make it a fact.



I don't insist you accept anything.  I'm telling you what is truth.  Whether you choose to believe it or not is your "constitutional right"...as you pointed out.

You'll know the proof personally, and soon enough.  And, BTW....fire only burns some paper.  I can prove it with a lighter and a wet piece of paper.



> Being unbiblical is as american as apple pie and their church choosing to do so is too.



Boy, you said a mouth full!  You certainly got THAT part right my man.  Being unbiblical IS as American as apple pie...especially these days.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

> Tyranny is intolerant, anarchy is intolerable, and liberty is tolerant



Tell that to your president, your speaker and your majority leader.  They need to hear it and they are the most "tolerant" people this country has ever elected.


----------



## pnome (May 7, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Seems that is how our country has gotten into the mess it is in right now.



I mean, outside of the recession, which has nothing to do with tolerance, where is this mess you speak of?




> Tolerant of crime



Don't think so:









> tolerant of terrorists



Laughable.  








> tolerant of illegals etc etc.



http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/05/07/fox-news-poll-arizona-right-action-immigration/

Homosexuals are not making the sky fall.


----------



## WTM45 (May 7, 2010)

pnome said:


> I don't see how that can be interpreted any other way.  There is no wiggle room there.
> 
> One thing about these fundamentalists.  They have read the Bible.  All of it.  Likely several times.  They know what it says and it is every bit as intolerant as they say it is.



Correct.
But that was under the "old law," if you ask the NT follower.

Yes, the NT mentions some things too, but the interpretations of those passages can vary widely.
Jesus himself never mentioned it, or at least the ones who wrote about Jesus never credited him with addressing the subject.
Hmmmmm........

What are the two "laws" or "commands" which WERE given by Jesus?


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> What are the two "laws" or "commands" which WERE given by Jesus?



Never hear the old "love the sinner, hate the sin" axiom WTM?  Come on.  You know the answer to that.


----------



## pnome (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> pnome,
> 
> How many terror suspects were read their miranda rights prior to 2009?  How many threats from terrorist nations were met with "bowing"?
> 
> ...



You're not going to get me to defend Obama.  I'm no fan of his.  But to suggest that an increase in tolerance for homosexuality is somehow negatively impacting our society is just not supported by anything but the closed minded opinions of religious zealots.


----------



## gtparts (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Fact: No institution throughout history has caused more death, destruction and oppression than religion.



Can't figure out how "civil" government missed your radar.

 I suppose you have the numbers, either in body count or trillions of $$$ damage, to back up this claim? Or is it just "common knowledge"? Global myth, maybe?

How about disease? Care to guess what % of the current world population will die prematurely due to diseases rather than natural causes? How about some well considered estimate of all those who died before 1900? 

Yeah, I know disease is not an institution. Neither is "religion" a single institution.  Death, destruction and oppression from religion isn't spit in the grand scheme of things. 

And how do you account for the actions blamed on religion but in reality the motivation was personal or national greed and power, having nothing to do with religion and everything to do with economics? 

Lumping the impact of all religions together is just a straw man, nor does it take into account the lives and financial losses spared due to the actions of religious groups.

Some people just glom onto whatever sounds like it supports their preconceived ideas on a given subject or fabricate it out of thin air.

And now, would someone make an effort to get this thread back on course!


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't insist you accept anything.  I'm telling you what is truth.  Whether you choose to believe it or not is your "constitutional right"...as you pointed out.
> 
> *Prove it without your book.  Show me ifallible, concrete evidence without using the words faith, belief, the lord tells us and so on. You only speak of which you believe, it is called belief, opinion, or faith.  Truth and fact are not among them.*
> 
> ...


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

pnome said:


> You're not going to get me to defend Obama.  I'm no fan of his.  But to suggest that an increase in tolerance for homosexuality is somehow negatively impacting our society is just not supported by anything but the closed minded opinions of religious zealots.



I deleted that post because it wasn't relevant.  But, anyway, I suppose I'm a closed minded zealot (though I really don't think so).

I do believe it is one of the MANY things that is negatively impacting our society.  It is not even in the same ballpark with the explosion of the divorce rate and single parent homes though.


----------



## FishHunt (May 7, 2010)

Nothing gets fundamentalist Christians more fired up than homosexuality.  You guys base your entire belief system on  a book that was written and interpreted by man.  Jesus may have said many of the things in the NT but it's impossible for the book to be 100% Gods word.  
Hatred, bigotry, exclusion that's not what Jesus was about.  But yet that is what many of you choose to believe.  I just don't get it.


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

It IS called belief or faith.  It is not opinion....and the truth IS in it.  Why do you assume that belief and truth must be exclusive and why do I have to prove it with out my book...which is the truth.  

That would be like trying to prove a lighter will burn paper....without the lighter.  PROVE IT!


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Nothing gets fundamentalist Christians more fired up than homosexuality.  You guys base your entire belief system on  a book that was written and interpreted by man.  Jesus may have said many of the things in the NT but it's impossible for the book to be 100% Gods word.
> Hatred, bigotry, exclusion that's not what Jesus was about.  But yet that is what many of you choose to believe.  I just don't get it.



Considering homosexuality a sin and considering unrepentent sin deadly does not equate to hatred or bigotry.  

Only in the world of the "tolerant" does that make sense.  It's the same logic that somehow equates a desire to stop illegal immagrants from coming into the country illegally to racism.  

What do you base your belief system on FishHunt?  Just curious.

I love how it's ok for you guys to be angry that we're angry....but it's not ok for us to be angry.  Hilarious!


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## FishHunt (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Considering homosexuality a sin and considering unrepentent sin deadly does not equate to hatred or bigotry.
> 
> Only in the world of the "tolerant" does that make sense.  It's the same logic that somehow equates a desire to stop illegal immagrants from coming into the country illegally to racism.
> 
> What do you base your belief system on FishHunt?  Just curious.



I'm a Christian.  I believe the NT was based on Jesus Christ but that it is impossible for it to be 100% accurate since man has had his dirty hands all over it.


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> I'm a Christian.  I believe the NT was based on Jesus Christ but that it is impossible for it to be 100% accurate since man has had his dirty hands all over it.





I'll let you guess which part of this I'm laughing at....


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## pnome (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> It IS called belief or faith.  It is not opinion....and the truth IS in it.  Why do you assume that belief and truth must be exclusive and why do I have to prove it with out my book...which is the truth.
> 
> That would be like trying to prove a lighter will burn paper....without the lighter.  PROVE IT!



Define "truth"

To me, "truth" is not something that you "believe" it is something that "is".  Reality, not your wishful thinking.

You may "believe" that homosexuals are an abomination, but that is not what they are in "truth".  They "are" human beings who just so happen to prefer having sex with others of their same gender.  (And there is nothing objectively wrong with that!)

You only think it's wrong because your holy book says it's wrong.  I feel confident in saying that if your holy book said it was OK, you'd think it was OK.


----------



## Spotlite (May 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Correct.
> But that was under the "old law," if you ask the NT follower.
> 
> Yes, the NT mentions some things too, but the interpretations of those passages can vary widely.
> ...


I will get you some new test stuff later tonight.



TheBishop said:


> 1.Your god considers homsexuality an abomination. 2. The great thing about the U.S. is the freedom to chose who and what we worship.



You are correct on your first sentence. And since this is the spiritual debate forum, the 2nd sentence should be go to the political forum. Has nothing to do with the discussion.

I mean think about it, we have a right to vote for whoever we want as President, we just got it wrong this time


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## FishHunt (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> I'll let you guess which part of this I'm laughing at....



It's impossible to have a serious conversation with someone that laughs at your beliefs.   Let me know when you are mature enough to continue this discussion and I'll be happy join in.  Until then I pray that one day you'll open your eyes and see God for what he really is.


----------



## Spotlite (May 7, 2010)

pnome said:


> Define "truth"
> 
> To me, "truth" is not something that you "believe" it is something that "is".  Reality, not your wishful thinking.
> 
> ...


The problem is, you dont believe in the Holy Book, so to you, you can not comprehend where we come from. And thats fine, I have no issues with your choices and what you choose to believe in or not.

It would be like PETA coming here trying to comment and post on hunting stories. There is no happy median between the 2 sides, and never will be.


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## Spotlite (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> Here some questions:
> 
> 1. Is it sick becuase they are gay?
> 
> ...



Since I started this calling it sick, I will answer.

1. Yes I think being gay is sick, I like women folk. 
2. No its not sick because they claim christianity. Lots of folks do that.
3. No its not sick to think its possible, just ignorant of the Word.


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

> you are correct on your first sentence. And since this is the spiritual debate forum, the 2nd sentence should be go to the political forum. Has nothing to do with the discussion.
> 
> *sir i am enbodied with the greatest spirit our creator ever endowed upon us. A spirit that has freed and fed more people, turned poor into ritch, increased more lifetimes on earth, and done more to better mankind than any religion. It is the american spirit.  It is the spirit our forefathers gave us.  It even has literature occumpaning it. All original, no versions, translations or metaphorical refrences.   *
> 
> i mean think about it, we have a right to vote for whoever we want as president, we just got it wrong this time:d



agreed


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> Since I started this calling it sick, I will answer.
> 
> 1. Yes I think being gay is sick, I like women folk.
> 2. No its not sick because they claim christianity. Lots of folks do that.
> 3. No its not sick to think its possible, just ignorant of the Word.



Agree 100%


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## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

> To me, "truth" is not something that you "believe" it is something that "is".



Correct....we agree then.


----------



## pnome (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Correct....we agree then.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

> I feel confident in saying that if your holy book said it was OK, you'd think it was OK.



Well...yes, I suppose that's correct as well.  Your point?  If the Law of Gravity said I could float, I would believe I can fly....but it doesn't.

You're misquoting though.  It is not that it's an abomination.  It's that it's an abomination TO GOD.  That IS, indeed, fact.  Not sure how you can argue with that.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

pnome said:


>



Thought you'd get a kick out of that.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> It's impossible to have a serious conversation with someone that laughs at your beliefs.   Let me know when you are mature enough to continue this discussion and I'll be happy join in.  Until then I pray that one day you'll open your eyes and see God for what he really is.



So, let me get this straight....it's ok for you to mock mine, but it's not ok for me to laugh at yours?

Believe me my friend.  I've encountered God like many never will.


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Well...yes, I suppose that's correct as well.  Your point?
> 
> You're misquoting though.  It is not that it's an abomination.  It's that it's an abomination TO GOD.  That IS, indeed,*is a theory*  Not sure how you can argue with that.



There fixed it for you. Something you beleive cannot be consituted as fact.  Becuase you BELEIVE it is a fact, does not make it so.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

Bishop,

Read the Bible.  It will help you participate in this forum better.

It is a fact that the Bible says that God does not approve.  Tell me, what exactly do you base your claim of Christianity on?  Everything in the Bible is theory and opinion.  What exactly tells you that you are a follower of Christ?  

*Before you answer, remember....just because you believe it does not make it true.*

I agree.  The fact that I believe it, does not make it true.  The fact that it is true makes it true.  I have nothing to do with it.


----------



## Spotlite (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> There fixed it for you. Something you beleive cannot be consituted as fact.  Becuase you BELEIVE it is a fact, does not make it so.




And just because you dont believe it to be fact, doesnt make it a theory.


----------



## rjcruiser (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> There fixed it for you. Something you beleive cannot be consituted as fact.  Becuase you BELEIVE it is a fact, does not make it so.



Here's the problem with that little fix of yours.

These folks claim to be "Christians."  They preach the book called "The Bible."  Yet they don't want to be held to its standards nor do they want to be held to God's standards.

It would be like me saying that I'm am a PETA suporter because the only animals that I kill, I kill humanely and as quickly as possible.


----------



## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Bishop,
> 
> Read the Bible.  It will help you participate in this forum better.
> 
> ...



O.K. I see were many people are getting confused. Yes it is a fact your book says what is says. I can read it and see that for myself. It is a fact the words are there.  But it does not mean the book is fact.  In order to do that you have to be able to prove it with external sources.  You cannot prove anything your book tells you.


----------



## rjcruiser (May 7, 2010)

TheBishop said:


> i don't need your book to argue logic



Correct.  But this isn't the logic debate forum.

It is the Spiritual Discussions, Debate and Study forum.  You really should at least attempt to know what you're arguing.


----------



## rjcruiser (May 7, 2010)

From the other thread.


Your right HF. The funny thing is...people say they believe the Bible, call themselves a "Christian," but then when it comes down to it, they back away and get all wishy washy and don't want to be "judgemental."

Why is being "judgemental" such a bad thing? especially when it is not us judging, but the Holy Bible/God doing the judging?

Problem is, there are a lot of ignorant christians who want to gain the benefits of eternal life without making any type of life change that is required.

I think a class on the fundamentals of the faith should be required for someone who calls themselves a Christian. It would definitely get people more on the same page with such simple doctrinal issues.


----------



## WTM45 (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> The fact that it is true makes it true.





You knew that laugh was forthcoming!


----------



## Paymaster (May 7, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> I think a class on the fundamentals of the faith should be required for someone who calls themselves a Christian.



Just simply being born again would help.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> You knew that laugh was forthcoming!



Hey!  You posted the thing about Jesus not hating sinners. I figure I get a free one after that!

Funny thing about truth. It's true.


----------



## Huntinfool (May 7, 2010)

Paymaster; said:
			
		

> Just simply being born again would help.



Oh don't be so judgemental Paymaster!


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## PWalls (May 7, 2010)

Paymaster said:


> Just simply being born again would help.



Amen


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## TheBishop (May 7, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> Correct.  But this isn't the logic debate forum.
> 
> It is the Spiritual Discussions, Debate and Study forum.  You really should at least attempt to know what you're arguing.



Your right, I'm deeply sorry. It was ignorant of me to bring logic to a debate were religion is predominant.  I realize the two are not synonymous and will try to check my reasoning at the door.


----------



## HandgunHTR (May 7, 2010)

In a case such as this, I tend to think (and to follow) as was prosribed by the Lord in Matthew 18:15-17



> 15"If your brother sins against you,[a] go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'* 17If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
> *


*

So, by calling someone on their sin, it is not "judging" or being "holier-than-thou".  It is to help them to recognize their sin and to help them to repent.*


----------



## WTM45 (May 7, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Hey!  You posted the thing about Jesus not hating sinners. I figure I get a free one after that!
> 
> Funny thing about truth. It's true.



No.  Let's get to the basis of my question.

Christianity is the following of the teachings of Christ.  Correct?
Judiasm is the following of the teachings of the prophets and the Torah/Law.  Right?

Well, Christians love to talk about the "New Covenant" and how the old law is not the law in which they live under.
Let's dig into it.

Please tell us when, and where did Jesus address the issue of homosexuality.

Were not the only two commands he gave for his followers was to "love God" and "love your neighbor?"


----------



## WTM45 (May 7, 2010)

HandgunHTR said:


> Matthew 18:15-17
> 
> 15"If your brother sins against you...



How does another person's being gay fit there?


----------



## Ronnie T (May 7, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> No.  Let's get to the basis of my question.
> 
> Christianity is the following of the teachings of Christ.  Correct?
> Judiasm is the following of the teachings of the prophets and the Torah/Law.  Right?
> ...



1.  Matt 19:4   And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’”

2.  (Jesus speaks to apostles:  John 16:12-15  “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for he will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you”.

3.  1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 
11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.


----------



## WTM45 (May 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> 1.  Matt 19:4   And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,’ “and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh?’”
> 
> OK.  He spoke of man/woman marriage based on the creation story, but did not condemn homosexuality NOR did he condemn being a bachelor or celibate.
> 
> ...



There are arguments for both sides of the interpretations.
Many denominations have decided to move forward.
Some will stay in the past.
Either is OK, since this whole religious belief system thing has become a private club environment with entitlement, bias, exclusivism, judgementalism, favoritism, prejudice and grandstanding being the norm.


----------



## gtparts (May 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> and comments in red posted by WTM45
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Again, WTM45, your comments clearly show that you do not "get it" any more than Dio does or you just aren't paying attention.

The Bible is the inspired word of God, so, if Paul wrote it, he was writing under the inspiration of God. Furthermore, all the information that is needed for salvation is included there. There is no need to address every possible sin in detail. Jesus did not come to give a comprehensive list with qualifications for every individual act of disobedience.

Secondly, the issue of people claiming to be Christians and finding no issue with homosexuality boils down to this.

The Holy Spirit, Jesus, and God, the Father are one and in absolute perfect harmony. If anyone disagrees with the word of God and, yet, asserts that their understanding comes from the Holy Spirit, they are liars and deceived. It is certain that they do not know and understand the Bible. 

The Holy Spirit cannot act or speak in conflict with the Word. That only leaves the following options: 

1) they present lies with their own mouths, knowing that they have not heard from the Holy Spirit, but seeking only to justify themselves and/or the actions of others, or 

2) they unwittingly attribute, what is told them by Satan, to the Holy Spirit. 

Either is blasphemy and they condemn themselves!


----------



## thedeacon (May 8, 2010)

All sin is sick in the EYES OF GOD. One does not overshadow the other. Sometimes we forget that while we are removing splinters.


----------



## Ronnie T (May 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> There are arguments for both sides of the interpretations.
> When God's says homosexuality is an abomination, I don't see much room for interpretation.
> Many denominations have decided to move forward.
> Some will stay in the past.
> ...



I enjoy conversations with you at times.  But some times you sound a lot like Diogenes.  Kinda gives me that sour milk taste in my mouth.


----------



## tell sackett (May 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> The problem with this subject is sin.  All of us have sins.  Preachers, Elders, Deacons.  All have sin.
> Homosexuality is in the world and homosexuals have a right to hear the Gospel of Jesus and make decisions.
> 
> But in this case, a church of several hundred people have decided that God's statement that no homosexual will be allowed into His kingdom can be ignored.
> ...


2Tim.4:2-4   Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3)For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4)And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.


----------



## Spotlite (May 8, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> No.  Let's get to the basis of my question.
> 
> Christianity is the following of the teachings of Christ.  Correct?
> 
> ...



Read Matthew 19 vs 4 - 6 to see exactly what Jesus`s plan for marriage/relationships. Jesus said this himself, no disciple said it.

Now go read Matthew 28, Jesus told the disciples to go preach his commandments. See what they say, they backed him up several places but one in particular that I like is Romans 1 vs 24 - 27, because it coincides with the "natural" use of the body the way God intended that was spoken of in Matthew 19 vs 4 - 6.  

And no, there are more than those 2 commandments of loving your neighbor and love God.New test is full of commandments. Different thread though.


----------



## WTM45 (May 8, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> I enjoy conversations with you at times.  But some times you sound a lot like Diogenes.  Kinda gives me that sour milk taste in my mouth.



Sorry bout that.


----------



## Hank001 (May 9, 2010)

I just read through all the comments and I'm astonished.  Isn't burning in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- for eternity enough to satisfy you?  Does God really need you to deal out earthly vengeance against homosexuals?

This thread is like a bunch of schoolchildren hating on the new kid, the foreign kid, the small kid, the autistic kid, or whoever is different than them.  Grow up and show a little respect.

This post may get bumped for being "dis-respectful", but prejudice and hate do not deserve respect.


----------



## Inthegarge (May 9, 2010)

Please explain where homosexuality fits in Darwin's theory .......RW


----------



## Huntinfool (May 10, 2010)

Hank,

point out the posts where there hate please. Hate is the second most overused word in our country. It's right behind racist. 

Disapproval does not equal hate.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

Hank001 said:


> I just read through all the comments and I'm astonished.  Isn't burning in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- for eternity enough to satisfy you?  Does God really need you to deal out earthly vengeance against homosexuals?
> 
> This thread is like a bunch of schoolchildren hating on the new kid, the foreign kid, the small kid, the autistic kid, or whoever is different than them.  Grow up and show a little respect.
> 
> This post may get bumped for being "dis-respectful", but prejudice and hate do not deserve respect.



You do not realize how wrong you are.Homosexuality is a spiritual weakness,and I have experience in how it is.I have a few relatives that are gay,from 4 different family sides.Two maternal,and two paternal.In their actions,they are sickening,and in their thoughts as well.I haven't said anything to any of them,about their lifestyle.Yet they automatically withdraw from me,why do you think that is?
Is it because I'm a Christian,remember I have never said anything to them,or treated them any different from my straight relatives.They are few and far between,so no it doesn't run in the family.I just get sick to my stomach,when I see something this foolish.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> You do not realize how wrong you are.Homosexuality is a spiritual weakness,and I have experience in how it is.I have a few relatives that are gay,from 4 different family sides.Two maternal,and two paternal.In their actions,they are sickening,and in their thoughts as well.I haven't said anything to any of them,about their lifestyle.Yet they automatically withdraw from me,why do you think that is?
> Is it because I'm a Christian,remember I have never said anything to them,or treated them any different from my straight relatives.They are few and far between,so no it doesn't run in the family.I just get sick to my stomach,when I see something this foolish.




Are you positive your examples represent the entire gay and lesbian community?

There are many confused and twisted singles and straight married couples.  Do they represent all single people and married couples in society as well?

A person's sexual orientation means nothing as to their potential for contribution to society, their community or to their own family.
Each human is an individual.  

To state that an entire group is "spiritually weak" or "sick" is purely a reflection of one's prejudice against people who are different than themselves.

Little wonder there is hardly any verbal communication coming your way from them.  They are human beings, and they can feel when love is not forthcoming.
Their "withdrawal" from you speaks volumes.
They are not lepers.

Good grief... an Atheist finds it easier to show true love to others, especially their own flesh and blood, regardless of the differences.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Are you positive your examples represent the entire gay and lesbian community?
> 
> There are many confused and twisted singles and straight married couples.  Do they represent all single people and married couples in society as well?
> 
> ...



Did you miss the part,where I said I treated them no differently?
It has been my observation,that they are defensive,and then offensive!
I've had this to hit very close to home WT,closer than I care to elaborate on.I will in all fairness,post this part openly.I really don't think a psych-eval is relevant in this case.


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> To state that an entire group is "spiritually weak" or "sick" is purely a reflection of one's prejudice against people who are different than themselves.



Society as a whole has not accepted them. If that were the case, gay marriages would be legal in every state.

Being prejudice and pretending its ok are 2 different things.

No one has said that a homosexual can not get forgiveness, they just cant continue their lifestyle. If that was the case, then the murderer could get up every morning and kill. Thats the sickness we are talking about, the church is dropping their teaching to accept it instead of preaching to them to turn from their sins.


----------



## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> ...In their actions,they are sickening,and in their thoughts as well.I haven't said anything to any of them,about their lifestyle.Yet they automatically withdraw from me,why do you think that is?
> ....I just get sick to my stomach,when I see something this foolish.



When you are obviously this repulsed by someone I would imagine they are able to pick up on it, no matter if it's intentional or not.


----------



## pnome (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> Society as a whole has not accepted them. If that were the case, gay marriages would be legal in every state.
> 
> Being prejudice and pretending its ok are 2 different things.
> 
> No one has said that a homosexual can not get forgiveness, they just cant continue their lifestyle. If that was the case, then the murderer could get up every morning and kill. Thats the sickness we are talking about, the church is dropping their teaching to accept it instead of preaching to them to turn from their sins.



Did you just equate homosexuality with murder?


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Did you miss the part,where I said I treated them no differently?
> It has been my observation,that they are defensive,and then offensive!
> I've had this to hit very close to home WT,closer than I care to elaborate on.I will in all fairness,post this part openly.I really don't think a psych-eval is relevant in this case.



Please do not think you are the only person here with gay/lesbian family members.  You are not unique in that regard by far.
It just seems your issues with them are bigger than most.
That's OK for you, if you want it that way.
Others of us seek ways to look past issues like alcoholism, drug addiction, criminal histories, failures or a sexual orientation different from our own to find a way to love our own flesh and blood.

I'm not saying you do not love your gay/lesbian family members, it just might be simply you don't understand them well enough to really get to know them for just who they are.  I hope you have the opportunity to.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> When you are obviously this repulsed by someone I would imagine they are able to pick up on it, no matter if it's intentional or not.



Well you see,that would be where you are wrong.They, the ones I'm refering to,know the word of GOD.I do not watch them practice their life style.They do not defend themselves as much as they,get offensive.A gay person is already anti social,anti cultural,and anti christ.They know they are wrong,why do so many wait for years before coming out of the closet?
I'm not the loner,the ones in question are.They avoid the rest of the family as well,even the ones who are not Christians.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> Society as a whole has not accepted them.



Sure you want to take that stance?  Can you quantify that statement with fact?

Witches do not get burned at the stake either, anymore.  

I thought Christianity was NOT about what society accepts, but what Jesus would do?


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> Did you just equate homosexuality with murder?



I equated sin to sin with a difference pointed out...........................Churches are preaching daily to their followers to turn from their sins. Homosexuality seems to be the only sin that most want to set aside and accept and not preach against, and in some cases promote.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> A gay person is already anti social,anti cultural,and anti christ.They know they are wrong,why do so many wait for years before coming out of the closet?



Good grief.


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Sure you want to take that stance?  Can you quantify that statement with fact?
> 
> Witches do not get burned at the stake either, anymore.
> 
> I though Christianity was NOT about what society accepts, but what Jesus would do?



OK, fair enough. And as far as Jesus, he said they were an abomination. Yes, its a fact society has not accepted them as a whole. If it were, this thread would be void


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> I equated sin to sin with a difference pointed out............................



Good thing the KJV version of the Bible does not have a height/weight chart for men, women and children.
Judgemental personalities would have no time for themselves.


----------



## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> ...A gay person is already anti social,anti cultural,and anti christ.They know they are wrong,why do so many wait for years before coming out of the closet?



Why would anyone want to come out of the closet when people like you believe your statement above to be true?


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Please do not think you are the only person here with gay/lesbian family members.  You are not unique in that regard by far.
> It just seems your issues with them are bigger than most.
> That's OK for you, if you want it that way.
> Others of us seek ways to look past issues like alcoholism, drug addiction, criminal histories, failures or a sexual orientation different from our own to find a way to love our own flesh and blood.
> ...



That would be a two way street.I'm a Christian,surprisingly at family gatherings,I do not get up on a soap box,and preach to my unsaved relatives.They know me,I know them.If something is going on in speech or in action,I'm not comfortable with,I move along somewhere else.I do not make a spectacle of it.This respect that so many keep alluding to,is due me,as well as it is them.


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Good thing the KJV version of the Bible does not have a height/weight chart for men, women and children.
> Judgemental personalities would have no time for themselves.



Do you happen to have any Bible version that promotes sin??


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> OK, fair enough. And as far as Jesus, he said they were an abomination. Yes, its a fact society has not accepted them as a whole. If it were, this thread would be void



Please show us that statement, book chapter and verse.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Why would anyone want to come out of the closet when people like you believe your statement above to be true?



Have you ever watched clips from a "Gay Pride" parade?
That speaks volumes for their mindset.Please give me a better argument.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> Do you happen to have any Bible version that promotes sin??



Do you have one that completely, clearly, distinctly and concisely defines the term?


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Have you ever watched clips from a "Gay Pride" parade?
> That speaks volumes for their mindset.Please give me a better argument.



Totally stereotypical.


----------



## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Have you ever watched clips from a "Gay Pride" parade?
> That speaks volumes for their mindset.Please give me a better argument.



Does a klan rally speak for all white people?  I don't think so.


----------



## pnome (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Have you ever watched clips from a "Gay Pride" parade?
> That speaks volumes for their mindset.Please give me a better argument.



I've been to a Gay Pride parade and saw the whole thing.  I think it was 1998 here in Atlanta.

Have you ever been to one?  What is this "mindset" you speak of?


----------



## tell sackett (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Please show us that statement, book chapter and verse.


Lev.18:22,20:13; Rom.1:24-32; 1Cor.6:9; 1Tim.1:10


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Good grief.



If they were of the "Norm".Why the parades?
Why the marriages,or protests for them?
Marriage is for a man and a Woman.If they choose an alternate lifestyle(I use alternate very loosely),why not live in an alternate way.They want to pervert society,and all that the nuclear family stands for.Please WT,you always line up something to back up your reasoning.Look up a Gay Pride Parade.Look at how anti-everything they are.They are perverse in their entire thought process.You can't go to you tube,it would be too X-rated to post here.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> If they were of the "Norm".Why the parades?
> Why the marriages,or protests for them?
> Marriage is for a man and a Woman.If they choose an alternate lifestyle(I use alternate very loosely),why not live in an alternate way.They want to pervert society,and all that the nuclear family stands for.Please WT,you always line up something to back up your reasoning.Look up a Gay Pride Parade.Look at how anti-everything they are.They are perverse in their entire thought process.



"They, they, they , they, they....."
There is no reasoning with a fully made up and closed mind.

Drive on, my friend.  Drive on.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> I've been to a Gay Pride parade and saw the whole thing.  I think it was 1998 here in Atlanta.
> 
> Have you ever been to one?  What is this "mindset" you speak of?



No offense,and all joking aside.Since you are atheist,I guess I really couldn't see where you would be offended.


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Please show us that statement, book chapter and verse.



You have been provided, theres plenty of scripture in this thread alone, you just dont get it........................ Now provide *anything Biblical* that promotes it.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> Lev.18:22,20:13; Rom.1:24-32; 1Cor.6:9; 1Tim.1:10



Not one of those verses are direct quotations of Christ.

Spotlite said, and I quote, "And as far as Jesus, he said they were an abomination."

Show me.  That's all I ask.
I seek no "Trinity" rhetoric, any "Holy Spirit" rhetoric or a discussion of old vs. new covenants.

Show me where Christ himself called a homosexual "an abomination."


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Not one of those verses are direct quotations of Christ.
> 
> Spotlite said, and I quote, "And as far as Jesus, he said they were an abomination."
> 
> ...





Matthew 19 Jesus himself is speaking about marriage, he also told about the purpose of the the male and female. His plan design did not include the same sex relationships. 

Do you have a problem with your pastor preaching what God has laid on his heart?? If he tells you something, do you say that you must hear God himself say it??
The teaching is there. He told his disciples to feed his sheep. Im sorry you dont like what they had to say.


----------



## tell sackett (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Not one of those verses are direct quotations of Christ.
> 
> Spotlite said, and I quote, "And as far as Jesus, he said they were an abomination."
> 
> ...


I love it when I throw a trick worm out there and feel that little"tic", then my line starts going sideways in the water.

You may not want "Trinity" or "Holy Spirit" rhetoric as you so disparagingly put it,but that's exactly what you're going to get. It is a fundamental truth of the Christian faith that Jesus is God the Son. Every word of Scripture from Gen.1:1 to Rev.22:21 are His.

And then there's this: Matt5:17- Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> Matthew 19 Jesus himself is speaking about marriage, he also told about the purpose of the the male and female. His plan design did not include the same sex relationships.
> 
> Do you have a problem with your pastor preaching what God has laid on his heart?? If he tells you something, do you say that you must hear God himself say it??
> The teaching is there. He told his disciples to feed his sheep. Im sorry you dont like what they had to say.



So you are unable to quantify your statement?

Careful about blindly following a pastor.  You may find yourself standing shoulder to shoulder with a Phelps or a Wright.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

tell sackett said:


> I love it when I throw a trick worm out there and feel that little"tic", then my line starts going sideways in the water.



"I,m your Huckleberry!"
Doc Holliday
Tombstone


----------



## pnome (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> No offense,and all joking aside.Since you are atheist,I guess I really couldn't see where you would be offended.



In the interest of full disclosure, I sort of stumbled into it.

I used to rent a house down in midtown Atlanta near Piedmont Park.  Went walking the dog one day and noticed a big crowd lining 10th street.  

Went up to investigate and it was a bunch of folks having a good time, dancing and waving these strange multi-colored flags.  Looked like a great time so I decided to stick around.  Ended up staying for the whole parade.  Had a pretty good time.  I especially liked the girls dressed up as Xena: Warrior Princess.  

Met some guys who were mixing margaritas and they invited me to have some.  Got real drunk and after the parade was over they invited me back to their house for a "sausage party."  

I said "Sure, man!  I love me some Andouille!!" 

I think that's when the GHB first started kicking in.  I'm not sure what happened after that.  I woke up the next morning sore all over.  Never saw those guys again, but man, did they know how to party!  


True story...







Well, all except for the part about the party anyway.


----------



## tell sackett (May 10, 2010)

Now I gotta go finish cutting grass


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> In the interest of full disclosure, I sort of stumbled into it.
> 
> I used to rent a house down in midtown Atlanta near Piedmont Park.  Went walking the dog one day and noticed a big crowd lining 10th street.
> 
> ...



Touche',in reading my post again,I see where you are coming from.I was not alluding to your sexuality,sorry.I meant in the clip from one I saw,they were mocking everything from GOD to the founding Fathers,and society in general.


----------



## pnome (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Touche',in reading my post again,I see where you are coming from.*I was not alluding to your sexuality*,sorry.I meant in the clip from one I saw,they were mocking everything from GOD to the founding Fathers,and society in general.



Don't get me wrong.  I was just kidding.   I'm as heterosexual as you are.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

Christianity aside.Lets say any "Good Ol' Boy" Bar or Tavern,anywhere,USA.Two gay guys go in,and let it be known they are a "couple".What do you honestly think is going to happen to them,at the very least,not to mention the worst?


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

pnome said:


> Don't get me wrong.  I was just kidding.   I'm as heterosexual as you are.



I messed up again,swap sexuality for manhood.


----------



## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Christianity aside.Lets say any "Good Ol' Boy" Bar or Tavern,anywhere,USA.Two gay guys go in,and let it be known they are a "couple".What do you honestly think is going to happen to them,at the very least,not to mention the worst?




Depends...are these good ole boys mature adults?  What do you think should happen?


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Christianity aside.Lets say any "Good Ol' Boy" Bar or Tavern,anywhere,USA.Two gay guys go in,and let it be known they are a "couple".What do you honestly think is going to happen to them,at the very least,not to mention the worst?



We all know they will not run into any "Christians" in a bar or tavern now, would they?


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Depends...are these good ole boys mature adults?  What do you think should happen?



Mature sure does cover a broad spectrum.I do not think anything "should" happen.I know of a lot of things that probably would happen,given a mixture of circumstance.Any Bar or Tavern,anywhere,USA,has a variety of personalities in them.You have Passive,Arrogant,Red neck,Yuppie,Hippie,Biker,and a whole lot of wannabees.You have those who are scared,and those who are glad the ones who are scared,are scared.Then you have the Brutal,when they reach their limit of alcohol.You have long fuses and short fuses.I don't know,unless you've been under a rock,you tell me.What have they been talking about,gays in the military,for four years about?Who are most of the hate crimes,committed against?


----------



## drhunter1 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> So you think its possible that the Lord would bless a gay ministry after he called it an abomination?
> 
> Sounds like you got to be on one side the fence or the other.



No. If he said it is an abomination it is. 

Paul persecuted Christians unto death yet the Lord used him for his glory and as his messenger. All I am saying is that we all have sins and the grace the Lord provides is sufficient and it is not up to me to question who he decides to use for his purposes. 

I'm not saying that these ministers are doing the Lords will and I'm not saying they are not. I'm saying that I don't know and it's not for me to know. I don't know how they are being led or even if they are being led by the lord. They may not be, but then again, maybe they are.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> We all know they will not run into any "Christians" in a bar or tavern now, would they?



Maybe,who knows?
You may run into the worlds next great Evangelist.THE LORD,does not Judge,as does man.


----------



## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Mature sure does cover a broad spectrum.I do not think anything "should" happen......I don't know,unless you've been under a rock,you tell me.What have they been talking about,gays in the military,for four years about?Who are most of the hate crimes,committed against?



Honestly the few sports bars I visit wouldn't pay them any mind.   But of course I live in the burbs just north of Atlanta where not only do we tolerate diversity, we welcome it.    Race, religion, sex etc doesn't play a role when choosing my friends.  Good people are good people.


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

drhunter1 said:


> No. If he said it is an abomination it is.
> 
> Paul persecuted Christians unto death yet the Lord used him for his glory and as his messenger. All I am saying is that we all have sins and the grace the Lord provides is sufficient and it is not up to me to question who he decides to use for his purposes.
> 
> I'm not saying that these ministers are doing the Lords will and I'm not saying they are not. I'm saying that I don't know and it's not for me to know. I don't know how they are being led or even if they are being led by the lord. They may not be, but then again, maybe they are.



If you understand the Christian faith, you would know, they are not being led of the Lord


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> So you are unable to quantify your statement?



It is a moot point to take a blind man to watch tennis.


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> It is a moot point to take a blind man to watch tennis.



Come on now.  Show me where Christ called homosexuals "an abomination."
You said it, not me.  Prove it.



EDIT to add.....After further thought, don't worry about it.  Say what you will, believe what you will.  It's your choice.


----------



## Spotlite (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Come on now.  Show me where Christ called homosexuals "an abomination."
> You said it, not me.  Prove it.



If you dont believe the apostles were led of God and taught his will based off of what he taught them, nothing to prove. But you still havnt provided anything biblical that promotes it.


Jesus didnt say the word Rapture either..................butSo what are going to do about that day beings he didnt say the word?


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

Spotlite said:


> If you dont believe the apostles were led of God and taught his will based off of what he taught them, nothing to prove. But you still havnt provided anything biblical that promotes it.
> 
> 
> Jesus didnt say the word Rapture either..................butSo what are going to do about that day beings he didnt say the word?



There are many varied interpretations of Revelation and Isaiah, not all agree with the Protestant ideals of either a pre-trib or a post-trib "rapture."

It's not on me to show a "promotion" of anything.  
It's fully on you to show where Christ called homosexuals "an abomination."
You can not do that.
The point is moot.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

FishHunt said:


> Honestly the few sports bars I visit wouldn't pay them any mind.   But of course I live in the burbs just north of Atlanta where not only do we tolerate diversity, we welcome it.    Race, religion, sex etc doesn't play a role when choosing my friends.  Good people are good people.



Out of my quote,what about the middle?The Bars North of the Burbs,and south of the Burbs?Partial quoting is a bias response.In perfect or imperfect scenarios for that matter.You can pick and choose,what may happen to a given point.The nature of All man is to do evil,that is what baffles the atheist.You left one important question,unanswered.Who are the most hate crimes against,socially?


----------



## WTM45 (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> You left one important question,unanswered.Who are the most hate crimes against,socially?



Nearly half of all reported are racially based.
Not applicable to the subject of this thread.


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Nearly half of all reported are racially based.
> Not applicable to the subject of this thread.



Socially,not ethnically.


----------



## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> You left one important question,unanswered.Who are the most hate crimes against,socially?



I didn't answer this part of the question because it has nothing to do with what we were discussing.  Not sure what you are trying to prove with this since a high percentage of hate crimes committed against a certain group of people still doesn't make it right.

An analysis of data for victims of single-bias hate crime incidents showed that (2008)


51.0 percent were victimized because of the offender’s bias against a race. 
17.9 percent were targeted because of a bias against a religious belief. 
17.6 percent were victims because of a bias against a particular sexual orientation. 
12.7 percent were targeted because of a bias against an ethnicity/national origin. 
0.9 percent were victimized because of a bias against a disability. (Based on Table 

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2008/victims.html


----------



## christianhunter (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> Socially,not ethnically.



It would seem that you are trying to dance around the subject.Socially, regardless of a gallup poll,possibly gender slanted,would indicate a Homosexual bias,proven by the Military.


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## FishHunt (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> It would seem that you are trying to dance around the subject.Socially, regardless of a gallup poll,possibly gender slanted,would indicate a Homosexual bias,proven by the Military.



Let's say the governments numbers I posted above are incorrect and homosexuals instead had the most hate crimes committed against them.   So what is your is point?


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## TheBishop (May 10, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> It would seem that you are trying to dance around the subject.Socially, regardless of a gallup poll,possibly gender slanted,would indicate a Homosexual bias,proven by the Military.



That is not a Gallup poll. That is the uniformed crime report compiled by the FBI from all the police departments around the country.  Crime statistics come from two sources. The UCR is the main one and the national victimization survey is the second.  Both are heavily flawed, and like the bible can be interpreted different by different people. And there is definetly no gender slant.


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## jbowes89 (May 18, 2010)

christianhunter said:


> THE LORD,does not Judge,as does man.



Actually he does, he hates gays, REMEMBER?


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## Huntinfool (May 18, 2010)

He hates homosexuality, just like he hates all other sin.  He does not "hate gays".


But good try.


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## TTom (Jun 27, 2010)

Lets see abomination, right up there with touching a menstrating woman, touching a pig, let alone eating one, shelfish: shrimp, lobster, clams, catfish, eels, ..

Always fun to see what twists in logic folks will use to make everything else in the Levidican Holiness Codes and say that is past the old law no longer applies, oh EXCEPT that bit about homosexuals. Cherry Pick much?


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## crackerdave (Jun 27, 2010)

TTom said:


> Lets see abomination, right up there with touching a menstrating woman, touching a pig, let alone eating one, shelfish: shrimp, lobster, clams, catfish, eels, ..
> 
> Always fun to see what twists in logic folks will use to make everything else in the Levidican Holiness Codes and say that is past the old law no longer applies, oh EXCEPT that bit about homosexuals. Cherry Pick much?



Yeah - I'm havin' a _ball._ How 'bout you?


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