# Howa 1500 Mini in 6.5G (continued as Project “Coyote 264” - FULL CIRCLE NOW!)



## Jim Boyd (Aug 17, 2022)

New rifle.

Bolt very hard to open after firing.

Was hard with Wolf ammo and slightly less hard with brass cased ammo. PVI is the brand I think.

First step to really clean the chamber and rifling… and disassemble bolt and really clean it?

I put about 15 rounds through rifle and did run bore snake through 2-3 times during the session.

Thanks !!!!


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## JustUs4All (Aug 17, 2022)

I had the same issue with a TC Compass in .243.  A good cleaning and some bolt cycling solved the issue.  I joked when I first fired it that I was going to need to take a little hammer with me to open the bolt.


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## Gator89 (Aug 17, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> New rifle.
> 
> Bolt very hard to open after firing.
> 
> ...



My Howa is the same, closes reasonably well, but stiff to open after firing.


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## Railroader (Aug 17, 2022)

I think it's just gonna take some use.  I have owned two Howas and they were both as you describe.

I bleeve it'll loosen up..


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## cddogfan1 (Aug 17, 2022)

I have that same rifle with no issue.  Great little gun.


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## bighonkinjeep (Aug 17, 2022)

Was the Wolf lacquer coated? If so that may be part of the issue. If lacquer gets  basically smashed into the chamber it's gonna take more than a bore snake to get it out.


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## menhadenman (Aug 17, 2022)

I've got the same rifle, but put a youth stock on there for the kids to shoot with. It's a nice rifle but I think the action isn't quite at the level as others. Like others said, good cleaning and RemOil might help out. Let me know if you reload - I've tortured a few powders and bullets with that rifles. Good luck!


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

bighonkinjeep said:


> Was the Wolf lacquer coated? If so that may be part of the issue. If lacquer gets  basically smashed into the chamber it's gonna take more than a bore snake to get it out.



Yessir, I think it was coated. Steel case and dull looking. 

The same Wolf ammo cycles fine in my 6.5G AR…

I will break out the chamber brushes and clean well… and disassemble, clean and lube the bolt. 

Thanks !


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

bighonkinjeep said:


> Was the Wolf lacquer coated? If so that may be part of the issue. If lacquer gets  basically smashed into the chamber it's gonna take more than a bore snake to get it out.



I noticed it was hard to open on the very first shot.  

I would think a lacquer related issue might require a few rounds before it created an issue?


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> I've got the same rifle, but put a youth stock on there for the kids to shoot with. Let me know if you reload - I've tortured a few powders and bullets with that rifles. Good luck!



This action is going into a Boyd’s thumbhole stock. I have the stock but have not had time to work on it yet. 

I am just getting started working on reloading. 

I have the press and other related stuff - but I gotta clean up the garage and get a bench organized in there to mount the press and powder stand, etc. 

I would be embarrassed for anyone to even SEE my garage right now. 

I have H335 powder and Barnes 120 gr TTSX for supplies. Cannot find any brass so I gotta run through some of my ammo to gain some empties. 

Powder is also really hard to find, as I am sure you know. 

I think this will get better as time goes along. 

I do have plenty of 7mm08 brass, gonna start working on large primers, powder, bullets and dies for that after I get set up.  

Thanks - all advice is appreciated!


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## menhadenman (Aug 18, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> This action is going into a Boyd’s thumbhole stock. I have the stock but have not had time to work on it yet.
> 
> I am just getting started working on reloading.
> 
> ...



Keep an eye out for CFE223, IMR4198, and BLC-2, all a little more common now and solid options. Midsouth has some Nosler brass right now but it's pretty overpriced. Good luck!


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## bighonkinjeep (Aug 18, 2022)

I've shot a bunch of cheap steel and laquer coated stuff myself and it seems strange in how it acts sometimes. I've found the coatings seem to be inconsistent almost like there's no real set formula for the coatings.Sometimes it seems they feel slick and hard and other times almost tacky right out of the box. Don't know what causes it. With your AR the extraction and ejection are being done mechanically with no manual input so it's kinda hard to tell how hard your extractor components are having to work to do their job. On the other hand ammo is so pricy that a few bucks if the extractor were to eventually fail is probably a mute point. Hope the chamber brush and a little break in get it where you wanna be.


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## menhadenman (Aug 18, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> This action is going into a Boyd’s thumbhole stock. I have the stock but have not had time to work on it yet.
> 
> I am just getting started working on reloading.
> 
> ...



Brass here @Jim Boyd - Starline is decent stuff. Price ain’t too bad. 
https://www.starlinebrass.com/65-grendel


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## CroMagnum (Aug 18, 2022)

bighonkinjeep said:


> I've shot a bunch of cheap steel and laquer coated stuff myself and it seems strange in how it acts sometimes. I've found the coatings seem to be inconsistent almost like there's no real set formula for the coatings.Sometimes it seems they feel slick and hard and other times almost tacky right out of the box. Don't know what causes it. With your AR the extraction and ejection are being done mechanically with no manual input so it's kinda hard to tell how hard your extractor components are having to work to do their job. On the other hand ammo is so pricy that a few bucks if the extractor were to eventually fail is probably a mute point. Hope the chamber brush and a little break in get it where you wanna be.


lol...This is Wolf ammo, QC is not the highest of priorities


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## Railroader (Aug 18, 2022)

I missed the Wolf part the first time..

I've shot a bunch of the laquered Wolf stuff in a lot of guns. With the Howas being a little tight anyway, I would bet the farm that the coating was a factor in your experience.

You'd have to shoot the thing mighty hot though, for it to be a real issue...


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## longrangedog (Aug 18, 2022)

Most bolt rifles cock either by opening the bolt or closing the bolt. I'm not sure which way the Howa cocks but it may be when the bolt handle is raised which would add some resistance. If pulling the bolt out is where you feel resistance, then the chamber may be tight, the ammo a little hot, or as others have mentioned, the chamber lacquered up.


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## bighonkinjeep (Aug 18, 2022)

Not to hijack here but... One thing about the cheap Wolf as well as the Tula, of the thousands and thousands ( mostly com bloc chamberings) I've been through I can't ever remember dropping the firing pin on one that didn't go off. They may get by with inexpensive components and mediocre accuracy but I've never noticed " quality control" as an issue LOL


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Brass here @Jim Boyd - Starline is decent stuff. Price ain’t too bad.
> https://www.starlinebrass.com/65-grendel



MHMan

Looks like it is not available right now?

I would gladly buy at that price point!

Maybe I am an IT idiot?


Watching.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

longrangedog said:


> Most bolt rifles cock either by opening the bolt or closing the bolt. I'm not sure which way the Howa cocks but it may be when the bolt handle is raised which would add some resistance. If pulling the bolt out is where you feel resistance, then the chamber may be tight, the ammo a little hot, or as others have mentioned, the chamber lacquered up.



The bolt is not overly hard to pull rearward once it is lifted up.  

I am not really sure which way cocks it but I should be able to watch the back of the bolt as the handle is cycled and know. 

Thanks !


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## menhadenman (Aug 18, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> MHMan
> 
> Looks like it is not available right now?
> 
> ...


Man it was there earlier. I’d try calling them in the morning if you can (they’re in MO). You never know. 

Keep an eye on Millworks too. They have nice brass at a fair price. I’ve bought from them a few times. 
https://www.millworksbrass.com/Store/#!/Rifle-Brass/c/28907033

And if you’re desperate… I won’t judge. 
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....grendel-unprimed-rifle-brass-50-count?Tk=DFBR


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## Jester896 (Aug 18, 2022)

isn't the dull cased Wolf the un-lacquered and the shiny cased stuff lacquered?

dry fire the rifle and see if you get the same result.  Did you look at the primer of the ones that were hard to lift?


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## Gator89 (Aug 18, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> isn't the dull cased Wolf the un-lacquered and the shiny cased stuff lacquered?
> 
> dry fire the rifle and see if you get the same result.  Did you look at the primer of the ones that were hard to lift?



Dry firing and raising the is the same as raising the bolt without firing when the chamber is empty.

The bolt handle is noticeably stiff to raise after firing Wolf ammo. Now, I have not fired any brass ammo in my Howa to date so I cannot say how tough it is to open the bolt on brass ammo.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> isn't the dull cased Wolf the un-lacquered and the shiny cased stuff lacquered?
> 
> dry fire the rifle and see if you get the same result.  Did you look at the primer of the ones that were hard to lift?



dry fired, the bolt is not hard to lift…..


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## Jester896 (Aug 18, 2022)

Gator89 said:


> Dry firing and raising the is the same as raising the bolt without firing when the chamber is empty.



that is a little confusing to me

a fired bolt will re-cock on an empty chamber and you would be able to isolate whether it is hard from cocking or hard from firing.  Then if it was only hard after firing I would want to see the primer to determine if it was the load...steel or brass.

Bore Snakes have a place...I'm not so sure it would be the proper tool for a pre-firing cleaning.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> Bore Snakes have a place...I'm not so sure it would be the proper tool for a pre-firing cleaning.



I am gonna have to stand redirected on this one. 

I buy them and shoot them!


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## Jester896 (Aug 18, 2022)

I just wonder if there is something in the bore that it can't get out...causing it to increase the pressure and make the bolt hard to lift.  That is a sign of over pressure.  Seeing the primers in the case would sure be a tell.  I am not sure you would see an ejector mark on a steel case....but maybe.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 18, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> I just wonder if there is something in the bore that it can't get out...causing it to increase the pressure and make the bolt hard to lift.  That is a sign of over pressure.  Seeing the primers in the case would sure be a tell.  I am not sure you would see an ejector mark on a steel case....but maybe.



Jo and I are in the Bahamas this week. 

I can look at the cases when I get back to the farm. 

Now that I have addl info, I can try to figure it out / post more questions.


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## Gator89 (Aug 19, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> I just wonder if there is something in the bore that it can't get out...causing it to increase the pressure and make the bolt hard to lift.  That is a sign of over pressure.  Seeing the primers in the case would sure be a tell.  I am not sure you would see an ejector mark on a steel case....but maybe.



I saw nothing indicating high pressure and the ammo works great in my 6.5 AR upper.

I did notice scuffing on the cartridge face.

I will try some brass ammo next time and see what happens.


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## Jester896 (Aug 19, 2022)

Gator89 said:


> I saw nothing indicating high pressure
> 
> I did notice scuffing on the cartridge face.


is the cartridge face where the caliber writing is?  maybe you did see pressure signs then

you and Mr Jim may also consider using grease on your lugs if you don't


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## Gator89 (Aug 19, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> is the cartridge face where the caliber writing is?  maybe you did see pressure signs them



Yes, where the caliber is stamped. I saw nothing that caused me to be concerned about pressure.

I fired ammo from the same box in my AR and my Howa, nothing unusual during firing.

I will inquire about this on the 6.5 Grendel forum.


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## Jester896 (Aug 19, 2022)

let us know what you find


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 19, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> is the cartridge face where the caliber writing is?  maybe you did see pressure signs them
> 
> you and Mr Jim may also consider using grease on your lugs if you don't



great sugggestion. 

I read to try grease on the lugs. 

Appreciate all you guys!


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## Jester896 (Aug 19, 2022)

apply a small amount then wipe it with a q-tip on the surface.  When you install the bolt back in the rifle push it hard then cam the bolt locked.  That way hopefully the action locks won't wipe the grease off the bolt lug surfaces and you can get grease on both surfaces.  A little bit goes a long way...you don't want it to pick up trash.


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## Gator89 (Aug 19, 2022)

First chance I get where i can do it safely, I am just going to cycle a couple loaded rounds and see how it does without firing.


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## Dub (Aug 23, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Brass here @Jim Boyd - Starline is decent stuff. Price ain’t too bad.
> https://www.starlinebrass.com/65-grendel




I've had some 38Super brass on backorder for months with them......I gave the 6.5G a try when you posted this........and just received a tracking numba. 
Bamsucka 










*Thank you for the alert. *


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## menhadenman (Aug 23, 2022)

Dub said:


> I've had some 38Super brass on backorder for months with them......I gave the 6.5G a try when you posted this........and just received a tracking numba.
> Bamsucka
> 
> 
> ...



Rather be lucky than good! Starline loads good in Grendel.


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## Dub (Aug 24, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Rather be lucky than good! Starline loads good in Grendel.




*August 24, 2022, 6:10 am *
*Out for Delivery, Expected Delivery Between 8:30am and 12:30pm. *



*Thank you for the notice. *


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 24, 2022)

Dub said:


> *August 24, 2022, 6:10 am *
> *Out for Delivery, Expected Delivery Between 8:30am and 12:30pm. *
> 
> 
> ...




Sweet!

Early bird gets the worm!!


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 27, 2022)

Guys

I am about to clean the chamber and disassemble the bolt. 

The rifle def cocks as the bolt is lifted. 

Can anyone see signs of excessive pressure on this brass?

I did not save the Wolf steel cases. 

Thanks


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## Jester896 (Aug 27, 2022)

I don't really... but I see a curious ring around the firing pin strike and a shiny spot over the mm on the left case in the bottom picture.

do you have a scanner?


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 27, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> I don't really... but I see a curious ring around the firing pin strike and a shiny spot over the mm on the left case in the bottom picture.
> 
> do you have a scanner?



I do not, sir. 

Maybe I can take better photos?


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## Jester896 (Aug 27, 2022)

and the funny spot was on the right case in that picture not the left


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 28, 2022)

@Jester896 
@Dub 

Guys - thoughts please?

Does the bolt look odd?

I think it is called the extractor. Is it supposed to be beveled like that?

I am cleaning the chamber and bolt now and will grease / test fire. 

The bolt handle was hard to lift but the bolt was not hard to pull rearward…

Thanks


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## Jester896 (Aug 28, 2022)

those primer don't look too hot to me at all.  The bolt seems pretty normal with the exception of the extractor...kinda looks a little funny.  That may be from the bolt being hard to open.  Still real curious about that too.  I know they have a few trigger issues and wonder if that is the problem on cocking.

There is some contact points on the bolt shroud that may need a dab of grease as well where the cocking piece runs on the bolt housing.


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## Dub (Aug 28, 2022)

Just getting home from work and seeing this, @Jim Boyd 

Jester is the rifle guru, sure 'nuff. 

He's the first person I ask about such matters. 




I'll gladly pull a couple bolts and get you a look at some comparison pics of what I have close at hand.


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## Dub (Aug 28, 2022)

@Jim Boyd  I only had two push feed type guns downstairs.


Remington M700








Bergara B14


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## Jester896 (Aug 29, 2022)

Have you tried another brand of brass? the brass on the bolt also could be from it being hard to open.  those primers still have rounded edges.


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## menhadenman (Aug 29, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> @Jester896
> @Dub
> 
> Guys - thoughts please?
> ...



Here are a few pics of my bolt (6.5G Howa 1500, maybe 300 rounds of hand loads). Yours doesn’t look out of sorts to me but don’t count me as a gunsmith. Good luck.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> Have you tried another brand of brass? the brass on the bolt also could be from it being hard to open.  those primers still have rounded edges.



I have only tried the Wolf and the PPV so far.

Can try addl types in two weeks. Think we are staying home this weekend - Labor Day and go on the lake some.

I greased and lubed the cocking ramp and ditto for the lugs. I cleaned the chamber as best I could and also the bore.

I shot two rounds and the bolt is still hard to lift.

I am gonna run 50 rounds or so through it and see what happens.

It is accurate, so far groups close to MOA.

Gonna keep working on the action and then bed it into the Boyd’s stock and see what kinds of groups I can wring out of it.


Genuinely appreciate the help!!!!


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Here are a few pics of my bolt (6.5G Howa 1500, maybe 300 rounds of hand loads). Yours doesn’t look out of sorts to me but don’t count me as a gunsmith. Good luck.



Many thanks !!!

Your extractor looks beveled the same so I am gonna discount that. 

Is your bolt hard to lift?


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## Jester896 (Aug 29, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> s your bolt hard to lift?




I see what is funny on the ejector now...it has a radius.  the brass on the bolt could be from the hard lift...I'm just puzzled about the hard lift....unless the brass is real soft and the chamber is rough from the coating...firing another type of brass may tell you.

I'm not a gunsmith either


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## menhadenman (Aug 29, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Many thanks !!!
> 
> Your extractor looks beveled the same so I am gonna discount that.
> 
> Is your bolt hard to lift?



Bolt isn't hard to lift at all. I don't think the Howa action is that great, though.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> I see what is funny on the ejector now...it has a radius.



It is not rectangular like Dub’s 700.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Bolt isn't hard to lift at all. I don't think the Howa action is that great, though.



Mine is def hard to lift. 

If it shoots straight, maybe I will have to live with it (within reason). 

I have some Hornady, Nosler and one other type ammo to try. 

Maybe the Wolf and PPV are just junk.


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## Jester896 (Aug 29, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> It is not rectangular like Dub’s 700.


yeah...it won't shear brass like the 700s will on a hard bolt lift...the edges are pretty sharp.


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## menhadenman (Aug 29, 2022)

I'd call Legacy Sports... 800-553-4229. Pacific time so you can hit em up late over here. 
https://www.howausa.com/services-1-2/


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## BriarPatch99 (Aug 29, 2022)

Jim ... AA2520 in stock at MidSouth Shooters right now  .... should be a good 6.5 Gren. powder with 120 grain ...


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> I'd call Legacy Sports... 800-553-4229. Pacific time so you can hit em up late over here.
> https://www.howausa.com/services-1-2/



I think I will sir.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

BriarPatch99 said:


> Jim ... AA2520 in stock at MidSouth Shooters right now  .... should be a good 6.5 Gren. powder with 120 grain ...



I have H335 on hand. 

I have 2520 and 223 inbound. 

Now if I can just find large rifle primers for 7-08 I will be golden. They will come sooner or later. 

I have all materials for 6.5 G just gotta run through some ammo so I have brass to work with. I can find Nosler brass but you can buy Nosler ammo cheaper. Go figure. 

I temporarily mounted the vise today but the wood on the bench is not strong enough. 

I tumbled 65-70 7mm08 cases and was gonna deprime and size them. Takes more effort than I thought it was gonna take and the wood did not hold up. 

thank you for checking on me, sir - much appreciated.


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 29, 2022)

Briar Patch 

And yes, I have 120 gr ttsx 264 for 6.5 G Hope this little cartridge pushes it fast enough for expansion on deer.

The 140 gr ttsx 284 I use in 7-08 is really hard on deer.

again thanks !


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## BriarPatch99 (Aug 29, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Briar Patch
> 
> And yes, I have 120 gr ttsx 264 for 6.5 G Hope this little cartridge pushes it fast enough for expansion on deer.
> 
> ...



I think it will up to a distance..

I would keep an eye out for some 100 grain TTSX for that cartridge ...


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## Dub (Aug 29, 2022)

I am guessing we will get our better velocities in our Grendels with CFE223.

Glad to see it in stock fairly often.


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## Elkbane (Aug 30, 2022)

Jim,
The problem you are experiencing (hard bolt lift) I think is with the primary extraction of the cartridge case. When you lift the bolt, a cam, typically on the BACK of the bolt, separates the fired case from the chamber wall.

Here is an explanation (but for a Savage):
https://www.savageshooters.com/content.php?280-Primary-Extraction-What-is-it

It explains what is happening. I don't know how your action is set up for primary extraction. My only point is that you may be focusing on the wrong end of the bolt.... If you aren't seeing excessive wear marks on the bolt lug surfaces, the problem isn't with the lugs themselves.....

ELkbane


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 30, 2022)

Elkbane said:


> Jim,
> The problem you are experiencing (hard bolt lift) I think is with the primary extraction of the cartridge case. When you lift the bolt, a cam, typically on the BACK of the bolt, separates the fired case from the chamber wall.
> 
> Here is an explanation (but for a Savage):
> ...



Good read, sir. 

That little 6.5 G does not have a lot of surface area like the article refers to. 

I did lube the cam at the rear of the bolt - I knew that was what “cocked” the rifle but did not know that also helped to unseat the case within the chamber - because the bolts has not moved rearward at that point, has it?

I am open for all solutions, gonna try to call them today. 

thanks !!!!


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## Jim Boyd (Aug 30, 2022)

Talked to Legacy gunsmith.

He did not like the fact that all that I fired steel case wolf ammo in the gun.

He told me to never ever do that again.

He says there are three possibilities for hard bolt lift.

The first one may be that the lugs are not exactly equal and I can tell that by looking at the wear pattern on the backs of the lugs.

Secondly he says that the steel case ammo may have embedded scratches dirt and or lacquer in the chamber and the chamber may need to be polished by a gunsmith.

Lastly, he says that the headspace may be wrong. In talking to him I am hopeful that is not the problem with this rifle due to the fact that the bolt is not hard to close when you put the round in the chamber.

I am going to be working on the unit tonight so I will first look at the lugs to see what I can see.

Just an update… Thank you guys for all the input!


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## menhadenman (Sep 1, 2022)

Hey @Jim Boyd , Midway has Grendel Brass as of right now.

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021324816


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## Gator89 (Sep 1, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Talked to Legacy gunsmith.
> 
> He did not like the fact that all that I fired steel case wolf ammo in the gun.
> 
> ...



I am going to shoot steel case ammo in any of the guns I own if I choose to do so.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 1, 2022)

Gator89 said:


> I am going to shoot steel case ammo in any of the guns I own if I choose to do so.



And we love it for you, sir. 

My AR eats that 6.5 stuff up but I am not putting it back in the bolt gun… it is an accuracy project in the first place.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 1, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Hey @Jim Boyd , Midway has Grendel Brass as of right now.
> 
> https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1021324816



You, sir, get a gold star!!!

100 cases ordered. 

Awesome!!! Many thanks!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 1, 2022)

Amazingly fast….


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## Gator89 (Sep 1, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> And we love it for you, sir.
> 
> My AR eats that 6.5 stuff up but I am not putting it back in the bolt gun… it is an accuracy project in the first place.



I am not trying to be a smarty pants.

The owner's manual dedicates page 8 to why you should not shoot reloaded ammo.

If you called and the factory said don't shoot reloads, would you switch to only factory?

Shooting steel case ammo may result in dirtier chambers and such, but I have never seen any damage to one my guns from shooting steel.

Shoot whatever you choose, it is your gun. But I don't believe the steel ammo is the problem in my gun.


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## Jester896 (Sep 1, 2022)

unless it is getting a good bit of blow by prior the steel attempting to seal.  The carbon may make the bolt hard to lift


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 2, 2022)

Gator89 said:


> I am not trying to be a smarty pants.
> 
> The owner's manual dedicates page 8 to why you should not shoot reloaded ammo.
> 
> ...



No one thinks you are a smarty pants. 

We are all in the same boat - guys that are interested in guns (unapologetic in that regard) and we want to drive excellence. 

Not all people hunt the same way so not all people are gonna manage guns the same way. 


Nary a sin in sight, sir!


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## Gator89 (Sep 2, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> unless it is getting a good bit of blow by prior the steel attempting to seal.  The carbon may make the bolt hard to lift



The bolt on my rifle was stiff to open after firing one round, the very first round I fired.

Can one round release enough debris to gum a chamber?

I just find it very hard to believe the ammo is the problem.


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## Jester896 (Sep 2, 2022)

If it is hard with all ammo then it wouldn't be the ammo it would be the rifle. If it is only hard with a couple different types of ammo it would be the ammo.

the cocking ramp on them are very steep compared to others which will add to it.  But no 1 round wouldn't do it.  Some of that stuff it pretty sooty though. 

Have either of you inspected the chamber with anything to see how rough the sides of it are?


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 2, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> If it is hard with all ammo then it wouldn't be the ammo it would be the rifle. If it is only hard with a couple different types of ammo it would be the ammo.
> 
> the cocking ramp on them are very steep compared to others which will add to it.  But no 1 round wouldn't do it.  Some of that stuff it pretty sooty though.
> 
> Have either of you inspected the chamber with anything to see how rough the sides of it are?



I have not but will tonight or this weekend.  

Also, mine was hard with the very first round also.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 5, 2022)

The smith at Legacy told me to look at the bolt lugs to see if one was carrying more load than the other.

I cleaned the bolt somewhat and it would appear to me that both sides show the same wear marks?

I also see some minor rotational wear marks on the back end of the bolt, nearest the handle.

When you look at the lugs, there are ramps made into the surface of the lug - these allow the bolt to go rearward a small amount - but - and I think this might be key… it is the bolt LIFT that is hard. At the “end” of the lift, the bolt seems to click free and is then relatively easy to pull rearward.

Anyone see something that jumps out at you?

I have a bore scope for mechanical work, I am gonna see if I can see anything in the chamber.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 5, 2022)

Bless or blame, it is done now. 

When already cocked, round chambered or not - the bolt is pretty easy to lift and it “pops free” once the lugs hit those small ramps. 

The bolt is then easy to pull rearward, round or brass chambered or not. 

Round chambered or not, if you pull the trigger, it takes some pretty good force to lift the bolt handle (as it re cocks the gun). I can do it with one finger but you gotta apply some pressure. 

Here is the bless or blame part. I found a bronze brush that was a shade larger than the OD of the brass case. 

I measured the metal tip of the brush and it  was .190 so well shy of .264 bullet diameter. 

I determined where the end of the case ends up (no bullet) in the chamber.  

Chucked it up with a brass rod and a drill motor ?. I marked the brass rod at the right spot - using a flat chisel. 

Lubed it with some light oil and ran the drill at a relatively low speed (200-250 maybe?) and went in and out - only to the depth of the mark on the rod. 

I did this for about 45-60 seconds. 

By hand, I then used a mop and cleaned it up and followed that with a series of clean patches on the same brush to make 100% sure it was clean and dry. 

Ran a bore snake through the bore and then ran clean patches through the bore til they came out clean. 

Went back and cleaned the chamber again. 

I cleaned the bolt very well and then (again ?) used the wire brush of the bench grinder to try to dress any hard edges or irregularities of the locking lugs. Cleaned everything up 100% and light lubed the lugs and diameter of the bolt - and then wiped it about clean. 

The bolt then feels about the same as before. 

Chambered up one of my reloads and discharged the rifle. 

Moment of truth? The bolt lift is within the very same lift effort as it was before I discharged it. Maybe even exactly the same. 

I will know when I start running groups through it. 

It definitely made a difference - the cleaning and “polishing”. 

At this point, I am gonna say the action is still quite tight and that I am gonna live with it. 

We will be at the farm this weekend and I am gonna start working on some 100 yard groups and see what happens. 

The first time I was shooting it, I was so annoyed by the hard bolt lift that I never really got into a groove.

I gotta travel Wednesday through Friday but I might try to get the action bedded into the new stock between now and Tuesday night. 

Sorry for the long post. 

Ok, tell me if I screwed up!!!!!


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## menhadenman (Sep 5, 2022)

Man that sounds frustrating but I know how it is having a burr in your saddle. Hopefully you fixed the headache without messing anything up.


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## Railroader (Sep 5, 2022)

@Jim Boyd 

I've been watching this...To me here's the money shot, Jim...In your own words.

"Round chambered or not, if you pull the trigger, it takes some pretty good force to lift the bolt handle (as it re cocks the gun). I can do it with one finger but you gotta apply some pressure"

This tells me you do not have an ammo issue.  Or a dirty chamber issue.

Though neither Howa I have owned was a mini, both had the issue you describe.  The 22-250 I had got shot a few hundred rounds, and I distinctly remember it getting better with time.

The other was a .243 that I got for an ex-wife to hunt with, and it never got shot enough improve, before I got rid of the gun, AND the wife... ?

Quit stressing over this, finish your project, shoot some good groups, and kill us a deer....?

I remain firmly in the "you got no problem" camp!!!

Good luck!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 5, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Man that sounds frustrating but I know how it is having a burr in your saddle. Hopefully you fixed the headache without messing anything up.



Been driving me crazy. 

I have the feeling it is better. About the only thing I THINK I could have screwed up would the start of the lands… and I am 95% sure I stayed off of them. Even if I got to the lands, it was a bronze bristle brush. 

Let’s see what happens!


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## Railroader (Sep 5, 2022)

Here's a suggestion...Cock it and snap it a couple hundred times, see if it don't limber up some.  Fool the thing into thinking it's being shot a bunch!!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 5, 2022)

Railroader said:


> @Jim Boyd
> 
> I've been watching this...To me here's the money shot, Jim...In your own words.
> 
> ...



Many thanks sir!

Before today, it was not a one finger job to lift the bolt, you had to use your hand (after shooting a round). 

Being in the “got no problem” camp would seem like a dream come true.

Will start running some rounds through it and see what happens.

If I feel good about it, I will use it the weekend of 16-18 Sept.

My brothers are coming to hunt and they will surely shoot some deer.

I might.

Appreciate ya!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 6, 2022)

Okay folks , gonna shift to the Project “Coyote 264” portion of this thread.

Time to take the action to its final home - Boyd’s thumbhole laminate stock in the Coyote pattern. 

.264 caliber and the short Grendel - it would make a great coyote gun…. But, alas, it is for paper and deer.

Here are some glass bedding images - and I am hopeful I did not break many rules. Only my second one ever and the first 10 years ago. It was a savage in Boyd TH and he is still thumping them here with me in Bamberg county. May have done something correctly!!!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 6, 2022)

Here are a few more.


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## bighonkinjeep (Sep 7, 2022)

A thought on the bolt lift issue. Sounds like probably a timing issue affecting your primary extraction. https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/please-explain-action-timing.3936303/


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## bighonkinjeep (Sep 7, 2022)

Another something that's or may not help is to check the front action screw. I had one once upon a time with a different brand rifle that protruded to far when tight and contacted the bolt head.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 7, 2022)

bighonkinjeep said:


> Another something that's or may not help is to check the front action screw. I had one once upon a time with a different brand rifle that protruded to far when tight and contacted the bolt head.



Thanks Jeep!

I will know this weekend but I may have resolved the hard lift issue or at least gotten it to where I can live with it and try to shoot it in. 

It def does not have a long screw, that was one of the first things I check and I checked it again last night while the scope was off, bolt was out and action was removed from stock. 

appreciate ya!


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## menhadenman (Sep 8, 2022)

bighonkinjeep said:


> A thought on the bolt lift issue. Sounds like probably a timing issue affecting your primary extraction. https://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/please-explain-action-timing.3936303/


Cool pics thanks for sharing!


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## bighonkinjeep (Sep 8, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Thanks Jeep!
> 
> I will know this weekend but I may have resolved the hard lift issue or at least gotten it to where I can live with it and try to shoot it in.
> 
> ...


 
This thread also jogged my memory of having a scope.mount screw that was just  long enough to cause bolt binding. It looks like you're coming along well. Be careful when putting the action screws back in.The Boyd's laminates are somewhat soft and it's really easy to crush the stock around the screw holes and wind up with a screw that's suddenly too long.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 8, 2022)

bighonkinjeep said:


> This thread also jogged my memory of having a scope.mount screw that was just  long enough to cause bolt binding. It looks like you're coming along well. Be careful when putting the action screws back in.The Boyd's laminates are somewhat soft and it's really easy to crush the stock around the screw holes and wind up with a screw that's suddenly too long.



Thanks again!

I put it back together already and I was gonna torque to 30 lbs inch but the screws already felt too tight and it looked like the bottom plastic was gonna distort so I stopped. 

If the gun shoots true, I may invest in the bottom metal and a Timney trigger. 

Looking for cheap accuracy right now!

Thanks Brother Jeep!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 9, 2022)

Getting started. 

Dodging showers and not overly organized.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 9, 2022)

Very confused.

Is this possible.

120 grain barnes.

27.5 CFE223

Less than 1600 fps?

The first group I posted was Nosler 120 gr factory ammo at 2350 or so.

Love the rifle so far!


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## Railroader (Sep 9, 2022)

Well, it seems to be shooting pretty good!  I figured it would.  Now, as far as the 800fps difference...I ain't no reloader, so I can't comment. I assume you were loading for that 2350 number?

But that 1587 sure seems strange, to me...

One thing's for sure, you are keeping this thread interesting... ?


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 9, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Well, it seems to be shooting pretty good!  I figured it would.  Now, as far as the 800fps difference...I ain't no reloader, so I can't comment. I assume you were loading for that 2350 number?
> 
> But that 1587 sure seems strange, to me...
> 
> One thing's for sure, you are keeping this thread interesting... ?




Strange to me also, sir.

My loads all ran less than 2000 fps even for a load approaching max. 

I am gonna keep banging away and get it right!


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## Jester896 (Sep 9, 2022)

interesting...that is the lower end or min @ 27.5...I would have expected it to be in the 2200 fps

midsouth has starline in stock for it


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 10, 2022)

Jester896 said:


> interesting...that is the lower end or min @ 27.5...I would have expected it to be in the 2200 fps
> 
> midsouth has starline in stock for it



I got 100 starline about a week or so ago - thanks!!!!!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 10, 2022)

This is really perplexing.

I used 27.5, 29.0 and 30.5 CFE223 and all under 2000 fps?

I know the bullets were 120 grains because I weighed them.

I shot two brands of commercial ammo and both were as advertised on speed within a very small %.

Gonna try to get back to the range again today.

Very, very perplexed…


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## menhadenman (Sep 10, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> This is really perplexing.
> 
> I used 27.5, 29.0 and 30.5 CFE223 and all under 2000 fps?
> 
> ...


Sling another rifle (or a factory load) through it. I don’t believe that number myself. Looks like it’s accurate tho!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 11, 2022)

Okay - Day 2

27.5 grains CFE223 and 120 TTSX

First group of the day, so some of the shot variance was likely me. 

Cleaned the chamber and bore well and considered the first shot a fouling shot but it was the same as the next 4.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 11, 2022)

Next group. 

Same cleaning procedure.

29.0 CFE223


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 11, 2022)

Cleaned chamber and bore again. 

30.5 CFE223


I am starting to think I have a chrono issue or I don’t have it aligned properly.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 11, 2022)

Cleaned all again. 

Commercial ammo - Hornady 123 SST.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 11, 2022)

With this experience, I am gonna load 28.6, 28.8, 29.0, 29.2 and 29.4 and see what happens.

May repeat this entire procedure and use a non-Barnes bullet.

If someone has a bullet that has shown good accuracy in 6.5G and is a good deer projectile, I will be glad to try it.

@Dub ?  

Rifle shoots well and is soft.

Scope may not be a great hunting scope. Reticle is very fine and may he hard to pick up quickly. The glass is good, however and even on higher powers, it retains clarity.


My brothers are coming next week to hunt and I may use this rifle.

?!


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## menhadenman (Sep 11, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> With this experience, I am gonna load 28.6, 28.8, 29.0, 29.2 and 29.4 and see what happens.
> 
> May repeat this entire procedure and use a non-Barnes bullet.
> 
> ...


Jim, here are some notes from my Howa 6.5G. I’ve got a mag length of 2.340” and “jam” is 1.768 base to ogive (CBTO). Loads that have done well for me that I would hunt whitetail to 200 yds without batting an eye:

- 100 gr Nosler Partition over 32.6 gr CFE 223, 1.755” CBTO

- 105 gr Cavity Back MKZ over 28.5-29.0 gr Benchmark, 1.743” CBTO

- 118 gr Cavity Back MKZ over 29.5 BLC-2, 1.726” CBTO

- 120 gr Hornady ELD-M over 31.0 gr CFE 223, 1.730” CBTO

I found a sneaky accurate load with some discontinued 85 gr Sierra bullets over IMR 4198 but I wouldn’t hunt deer with those (flat base varmint bullets). 

Check your manual before messing with my recipes of course, but a few other thoughts: (1) loading a little longer will reduce pressure and give you some breathing room so long as you’re off the lands; (2) my Howa seems to like 120 gr loads that are around 2,540 fps, though I haven’t pushed further to see the next node; (3) for the monos I’d be inclined to try a lighter bullet with better speed to make sure they open up. 

The 120 ELD-M and 105 MKZ are killers. Both my kids have their first kills with those two bullets, one well placed shot each did the trick. Don’t let the “match” bullet label fool you. I learned that myself last year after hearing others say it.


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## menhadenman (Sep 11, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Cleaned chamber and bore again.
> 
> 30.5 CFE223
> 
> ...


I’d believe the 2400s with 30.5 gr CFE… but would chalk up the 1900 fps as bunkum. The factory ammo speeds seem right to me and SST will surely get the job done. Looks like your rig is coming along and a dang fine setup. Thanks for sharing.


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## Railroader (Sep 11, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Next group.
> 
> Same cleaning procedure.
> 
> ...




Quit.  You got it.  Right here. ?


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 12, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Jim, here are some notes from my Howa 6.5G. I’ve got a mag length of 2.340” and “jam” is 1.768 base to ogive (CBTO). Loads that have done well for me that I would hunt whitetail to 200 yds without batting an eye:
> 
> - 100 gr Nosler Partition over 32.6 gr CFE 223, 1.755” CBTO
> 
> ...




Nice!!!

Appreciate all the info - and am shopping. 

The Barnes looks great and at 0-125 yards, I believe will open reliably enough. 

However, I want additional accuracy testing projects. 

I am not done testing the ttsx - but will work through at least 1 other projectile. 

I am early in this entire experiment so enthusiasm remains high. 

Much appreciated.


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 12, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Quit.  You got it.  Right here. ?



great advice RR but I can’t quite quit right there. 

I have the 29 gr baseline so I will do 28.6 28.8  29.0  29.2  29.4 to see if there is some refinement to be found there, sir. 

May be we can squeeze some variation out of the groups. 

I also just HAVE to try a non copper bullet and see how that plays out. 

Starting to get my bench processes down now and it is therapeutic!

Appreciate ya!!!!!


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## Railroader (Sep 12, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> great advice RR but I can’t quite quit right there.
> 
> I have the 29 gr baseline so I will do 28.6 28.8  29.0  29.2  29.4 to see if there is some refinement to be found there, sir.
> 
> ...




I totally get it!  And that rabbit hole you are diggin' in is exactly why I never took up reloading...

But you keep going, I am enjoying your journey with a rifle I want, but don't yet have!!!

While the rest are blinding you with opinion and information, I'll continue to be the voice of oversimplification!!!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 12, 2022)

Railroader said:


> Quit.  You got it.  Right here. ?



One thought to add, I rushed home and loaded my last ten 120 barnes ttsx at 29.0 gr cfe223 for this weekends hunt!!!!!


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## Jim Boyd (Sep 12, 2022)

Railroader said:


> I totally get it!  And that rabbit hole you are diggin' in is exactly why I never took up reloading...
> 
> But you keep going, I am enjoying your journey with a rifle I want, but don't yet have!!!
> 
> While the rest are blinding you with opinion and information, I'll continue to be the voice of oversimplification!!!



Come visit me and you will have all the rounds you can shoot!


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## Dub (Sep 20, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Cleaned chamber and bore again.
> 
> 30.5 CFE223
> 
> ...





I'm at a loss, buddy.    


I think is must be a chrono-related issue.


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## Gator89 (Sep 20, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Next group.
> 
> Same cleaning procedure.
> 
> ...




Looks like the sweet spot has been located.


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## weagle (Sep 25, 2022)

I'm shooting a max load of IMR 8208 under a 123 SST and getting right at 2400 from my 16 1/4" Howa mini.  I cut and crowned the barrel myself, shortened the forend, and painted the stock. Also swapped the plastic for a metal, hinged floor plate from Oregunsmithing.  The 123 SSTs have worked perfect on 3 deer, high shoulder shots, golf ball size exit, dead like lighting hit them.


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## Jim Boyd (Oct 15, 2022)

Rifle and reload Barnes worked just fine!


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## weagle (Oct 15, 2022)

Jim Boyd said:


> Rifle and reload Barnes worked just fine!
> 
> View attachment 1183118


Nice Deer and Rifle.


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## Big7 (Oct 15, 2022)

Look at the mounting points and see if they are being misaligned when torqued down to the stock. It might need a shim in one area. Probably the back strap screw.

One way to find out for sure is to fire a few rounds into a back stop just holding on to it without it being screwed down to the stock. If they are not hard to open- there's your problem.
I'm not personally familiar with that particular rifle but I've seen it happen, especially with aftermarket stocks.

A one piece scope mount could give similar symptoms especially if it straddles the action.
That's a long shot and the last thing to check.


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## Jim Boyd (Dec 6, 2022)

weagle said:


> I'm shooting a max load of IMR 8208 under a 123 SST and getting right at 2400 from my 16 1/4" Howa mini.  I cut and crowned the barrel myself, shortened the forend, and painted the stock. Also swapped the plastic for a metal, hinged floor plate from Oregunsmithing.  The 123 SSTs have worked perfect on 3 deer, high shoulder shots, golf ball size exit, dead like lighting hit them.



Love the project and the results!!!!!!


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