# What's your proof of Salvation?



## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

This is a personal question to each of you who wants to respond. I'm wanting to know what is your proof of salvation? If salvation is a gift from God, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, you are saved?
I personally don't have any assurance of salvation.
We are quick to say we have no way of knowing if each other are saved or if John McCarthur is saved so how do you know you are saved?
Is your proof spiritual like in your heart? Is it physical like keeping the commandments? Is it things like obedience to God or moral behavior?
Is your proof biblical? What is a verse you like to use to show your proof? I'm not talking about "eternal salvation" verses but conversion verses. I know most on here believe in eternal security.
Could someone be converted and be saved at a later regeneration? (suggested from another thread)
How do you know you weren't a victim of the dreaded "false conversion?"
Many cultural Christians have assurance of salvation.
How does boasting your proof not become the sin of Self-Righteousness and pride?

Matthew 7:22-23  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'23)Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


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## hobbs27 (Apr 5, 2013)

All I know to say is if you're not sure, lay it at his feet and pray and pray.If you still don't get an answer, grab you a jug of water and go to the woods and don't come back till you get an answer.It's the only thing you take with you when you leave this world.God Bless.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 5, 2013)

The "reason" I know I'm "saved" and others are "saved" is firstly that people have accepted or made a choice to seek for the cross to find Christ and the things of God. Secondly, I am saved and others are saved for continuing the work of Christ in His kingdom by carring my own cross, asking others to carry it at times, and helping others with their crosses. Thirdly I hope as the ancients hoped. I hope by faith, only now faith is not for things unseen. It is for things seen as they were from the beginning, are, and always will be.

I am saved because I have been made alive to see the things of God, which once were only the visitations of rare angels,  infrequent times of visions and moments of spiritual extacy, small revelations made big by my arrogance, being on small pieces of sacred ground, but now my heart suffers with anxieties it has so little room for all the real things of God.

I am saved for understanding--understanding which comes from perseverence in faith....and a realization that the body of Christ is still ministering in His kingdom. I am saved because our brother Paul who is now in heaven with our Lord, said this to the Colossians 1;21-23 when he was even in prison, even in prison ministering! A prisoner in a worldly prison ministering to a prisoner out of prison but into a spiritual prison!

I can loose my salvation tomorrow.... the prison barrs are never really far away... for some strange reason I fear I could quit faith... I don't know how or why, but if i voluntarily quit faith, then even though I have been made a traveller of the way, I would loose everything, even the small portions of the  the Glory of God I was made to gain. I would fall. I would fall! And oh I would fall hard! I would break.... unless...unless...a brother or a sister tugged at my elbow... and showed me how to continue to carry my cross and hope even more in the Glory of God.

I am saved because salvation is a place like a mother's womb... or walking two inches above a cemetary's grounds... love has seeded my world--all of it. 

The great poet WB Yeats once wrote these lines that I love very much: "Love has pitched her mansion in the place of excrements." It is too bad, that is not in the bible. LOL If you know the two realities these words apply to,... sitting with the man from Galillee and with all his deciples should not be to us a mistery, or arrogance.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> All I know to say is if you're not sure, lay it at his feet and pray and pray.If you still don't get an answer, grab you a jug of water and go to the woods and don't come back till you get an answer.It's the only thing you take with you when you leave this world.God Bless.



Maybe a stop at the Native American Peyote Church would help. 
Enough about me though, what is your proof?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I can loose my salvation tomorrow.... the prison barrs are never really far away... for some strange reason I fear I could quit faith... I don't know how or why, but if i voluntarily quit faith, then even though I have been made a traveller of the way, I would loose everything, even the small portions of the  the Glory of God I was made to gain. I would fall. I would fall! And oh I would fall hard! I would break.... unless...unless...a brother or a sister tugged at my elbow... and showed me how to continue to carry my cross and hope even more in the Glory of God.



Thanks for your response. I was hoping to hear from someone who doesn't believe in "eternal security". That makes it even harder to know you are saved because you are aware that you can lose it.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for your response. I was hoping to hear from someone who doesn't believe in "eternal security". That makes it even harder to know you are saved because you are aware that you can lose it.



I am saved because like Jonah I am sitting under a "tree"; but unlike Jonah it does not have to be taken away...


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## hobbs27 (Apr 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> . I was hoping to hear from someone who doesn't believe in "eternal security". That makes it even harder to know you are saved because you are aware that you can lose it.



That is an interesting concept.So do you believe someone can become so good in the eyes of God that they deserve Salvation, but then can become undeserving of it?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> That is an interesting concept.So do you believe someone can become so good in the eyes of God that they deserve Salvation, but then can become undeserving of it?



Well that was what I was looking for answers to on the grace vs lordship salvation thread but yes I do believe a person can become undeserving of salvation.
I just don't explain it as "never being saved" or "a false conversion" as others do.

I wonder if my unsecure salvation makes me fear God more and try harder. It might make me more vunerable to Satan too. What chance does Satan have against your salvation? What does Satan hope to gain by going after secure Christians?

You never said what your proof is.


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## formula1 (Apr 5, 2013)

*Re:*

My evidence is my confession of faith in Christ and the witness of the Holy Spirit in my spirit, along with God's love living in me. And here are some of the scriptures that back these things up.  The scriptures are wonderful to know, but they don't make the spirit of a man unless he follows the Master who bought him.  God bless!

Romans 10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 8
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

2 Corinthians 5:5 
4 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

1 John 4:13 
By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit.

John 13:35 
By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well that was what I was looking for answers to on the grace vs lordship salvation thread but yes I do believe a person can become undeserving of salvation.
> I just don't explain it as "never being saved" or "a false conversion" as others do.
> 
> I wonder if my unsecure salvation makes me fear God more and try harder. It might make me more vunerable to Satan too. What chance does Satan have against your salvation? What does Satan hope to gain by going after secure Christians?
> ...




I cant agree that someone could become undeserving of salvation because that would mean that at sometime they were deserving of it.Grace is a love described as one given that is undeserving, only through grace can a man deserving of he11 achieve eternal salvation.To become undeserving or deserving is salvation through works.

Unsecurity in salvation comes to the saved by the liar himself satan.His hope is to give unto the saved confusion.He can't touch your salvation, the Gospel has him bound, what he can do is effect your ability to shine a light to the world so that Jesus can be seen through you.

My proof...I agree with formula1 above, and I would also add Hebrews 12, for the Lord has chastised me out of love, and I feel his presence in many things.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

I was pretty sure of my salvation until I started reading about Lordship Salvation and false conversions. I wouldn't say that following is of Satan though. I do feel the Holy Spirits presence in me. 
I don't doubt my faith at all. What I'm doubting is if I haven't given enough of myself or my worldy possessions. If I'm not following the New Covenant commandments as closely as I should. 

1John 3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked

How can you watch this video and not wonder if you are doing enough?


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## gtparts (Apr 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks for your response. I was hoping to hear from someone who doesn't believe in "eternal security". That makes it even harder to know you are saved because you are aware that you can lose it.



*1 John 5:12-14*

New International Version (NIV)

 <sup class="versenum">12 </sup>Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.
*Concluding Affirmations*

<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. <sup class="versenum">14 </sup>This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.


John didn't stutter and he wrote what was given to him by the Holy Spirit. 

Those who dispute it do not have the certainty that, of God, He would have us absolutely steadfast in His salvation. There is but one salvation. It is found in our "faith in Jesus". The evidence is born by our submission to Him and it is held secure in His hand, as are we. If this is untrue in anybody's life, it can only be that that individual was never saved to begin with.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

gtparts said:


> *
> The evidence is born by our submission to Him and it is held secure in His hand, as are we. If this is untrue in anybody's life, it can only be that that individual was never saved to begin with.*


*

That's what I'm looking for. What do you personally do to submit to God?*


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## gordon 2 (Apr 5, 2013)

Again, this is what our brother Paul says....


Colossians 1:21-23

New King James Version (NKJV)


21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.


...............

So grace is not our salvation by itself. We also have our part to play for salvation to be complete.  We must continue in the faith, grounded.... even after our reconciliation by grace.

Now this, Paul says:


Colossians 1:24

New International Version (NIV)




24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
.................................................................................

So we are to do and fill up in our flesh what is still lacking in regards to Christ's afflictions--for the sake of the church... who is in the kingdom... where we all are....

I read this as carrying our crosses..... and it is an essential part of salvation.  a)First grace on to the cross ( calvary) and our reconciliation and b) then our walk.... If we forgo the second part... we have issues....

..................................................................................

Proverbs 8 :20-21

I walk in the way of virtue, in the paths of justice, enriching those who love me, filling their treasuries...

I read that the paths of justice are the way of God. We would do well to at least walk near them--before we can say we are saved. And if we don't... well, our reconciliation was like seeds planted on rocks or poor ground.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> So we are to do and fill up in our flesh what is still lacking in regards to Christ's afflictions
> QUOTE]
> 
> What do you personally do to meet this?


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## irishredneck (Apr 5, 2013)

I walked unannounced into a Shake village for the first time in the Amazon, full of devil worshipers & magicians they all stopped their ritual and scattered. The tribesman said they have never seen this before, they complained they can all see the spirit of, what they call 'the enemy God' inside me and they can't do anything when I am around. 
Pretty cool to know that lil old me even though through all my failings, my Spirit is sealed.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

I appreciate the responses but I was hoping to get more specific answers and I have gotten a few. Something along the lines of because of Grace or because I follow the New Covenant laws.
Something like "I have forgiven all my tresspassers."
I can feel the Holy Spirit in my Heart.
I would really like some concrete feelings more spiritual or physical.
Again I don't want to discuss OSAS or eternal salvation, if we can, just explain what it is you feel or do to let yourself know you are saved. Does evidence of your decipleship play any part of it?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

irishredneck said:


> I walked unannounced into a Shake village for the first time in the Amazon, full of devil worshipers & magicians they all stopped their ritual and scattered. The tribesman said they have never seen this before, they complained they can all see the spirit of, what they call 'the enemy God' inside me and they can't do anything when I am around.
> Pretty cool to know that lil old me even though through all my failings, my Spirit is sealed.



That's pretty amazing that they could feel the power of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't explain all the missionaries killed in action though. I would hate to think they weren't saved.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> gordon 2 said:
> 
> 
> > So we are to do and fill up in our flesh what is still lacking in regards to Christ's afflictions
> ...


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## Michael F. Gray (Apr 5, 2013)

Ye can know you have passed from death unto life because ye Love the brethren


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## rjcruiser (Apr 5, 2013)

By the fruit of the spirit...

By the frustration this World gives....

By the hatred for my sin....

By the desire to be holy....


Good question...simple, yet effective in making one think a little bit.


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## Snackdaddy66 (Apr 5, 2013)

Not sure this is what you are looking for, but here goes.  I am a sinner like everyone else, but I believe that Christ died for me on the cross to forgive me of my sins.  I also have times that I feel/know the holy spirit is with me.  For example, I thought I would never ever do this in a million years.  A lady in our church was diagnosed with breast cancer that had spread (this was about 4 years ago).  She went through all the chemo treatments and was scheduled to go for her lab results the following Wednesday.  On that Sunday, I was praying after I took communion, and while others were still receiving and I couldn't focus on prayer.  Inside my head, something told me to go to her after church and put my hand on the left side of her chest and tell her the cancer was gone.  Again, I shook my head because there is no way I was going to do that.  After church, we went to Sunday school where I help with the junior high kids.  Again, the entire time I couldn't focus because I was being told to do this.  I still had told myself no way.  When SS was over and we were walking out, she came out of a room with her family and I immediately went over to her.  I said " Susie, I don't kno what is going on, but I have been lead from church to do something and I hope it doesn't offend you.  I reach out a put my hand on the left side of her chest (while my two kids and wife and her three kids and husband stood looking at me like "what the heck") and told her the cancer is gone.  After explaining what had happened to me, we went our separate ways.  The following Thursday morning I received a call from her saying that her lab results were back and they could not find any cancer.

I have had other "proof" that there is a God and all I can say is if you constantly talk to him and ask for forgiveness and help in being a disciple, he will give signs.


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## Cavalry Scout (Apr 5, 2013)

There is a really revealing book, "the normal Christian life",,  Watchman Nee.  It has helped me.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

Snackdaddy66 said:


> Not sure this is what you are looking for, but here goes.  I am a sinner like everyone else, but I believe that Christ died for me on the cross to forgive me of my sins.  I also have times that I feel/know the holy spirit is with me.  For example, I thought I would never ever do this in a million years.  A lady in our church was diagnosed with breast cancer that had spread (this was about 4 years ago).  She went through all the chemo treatments and was scheduled to go for her lab results the following Wednesday.  On that Sunday, I was praying after I took communion, and while others were still receiving and I couldn't focus on prayer.  Inside my head, something told me to go to her after church and put my hand on the left side of her chest and tell her the cancer was gone.  Again, I shook my head because there is no way I was going to do that.  After church, we went to Sunday school where I help with the junior high kids.  Again, the entire time I couldn't focus because I was being told to do this.  I still had told myself no way.  When SS was over and we were walking out, she came out of a room with her family and I immediately went over to her.  I said " Susie, I don't kno what is going on, but I have been lead from church to do something and I hope it doesn't offend you.  I reach out a put my hand on the left side of her chest (while my two kids and wife and her three kids and husband stood looking at me like "what the heck") and told her the cancer is gone.  After explaining what had happened to me, we went our separate ways.  The following Thursday morning I received a call from her saying that her lab results were back and they could not find any cancer.
> 
> I have had other "proof" that there is a God and all I can say is if you constantly talk to him and ask for forgiveness and help in being a disciple, he will give signs.



That's very inspirational. You were brave to follow through with God's request of your services.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 5, 2013)

Cavalry Scout said:


> There is a really revealing book, "the normal Christian life",,  Watchman Nee.  It has helped me.



Thanks for the advice. I was just looking at that book on amazon. 100 reviews with a 4.8 out of 5.
I think Mr. Nee was the Chinese Paul.

http://www.amazon.com/Normal-Christ...ds="the+normal+Christian+life",,+Watchman+Nee


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## hummerpoo (Apr 5, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If salvation is a gift from God, how do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt, you are saved?



The question of proof of salvation, or assurance of salvation, whether in reference to others or myself, is of such a low interest that it only enters my mind when I hear it from others.  Even then it is boring except that I am often told that I'm missing something, and it would be disrespectful not to give some consideration to the possibility (rethink my position, I guess).

My eternal destiny will have no effect on my actions or attitude today or tomorrow.  God is who He is, and who He is requires that I stand in awe.  I just don't see any magnitude in the question.

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why I responded; maybe I'm just wondering if anyone else feels the same.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> The question of proof of salvation, or assurance of salvation, whether in reference to others or myself, is of such a low interest that it only enters my mind when I hear it from others.  Even then it is boring except that I am often told that I'm missing something, and it would be disrespectful not to give some consideration to the possibility (rethink my position, I guess).
> 
> My eternal destiny will have no effect on my actions or attitude today or tomorrow.  God is who He is, and who He is requires that I stand in awe.  I just don't see any magnitude in the question.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why I responded; maybe I'm just wondering if anyone else feels the same.



I do respect your answer and the reason you answered is because the Holy Spirit lead you to answer. You are so assure of your salvation that nothing you do matters. You view salvation as a gift directly from God and nothing you do even enters into the equation. 
The Lordship Salvation believers(did I mention I've been studying this?) view this differently. 
I do respect your view and it is very common in the Christian community. The Lordship Salvation believers call this view "Easy-Believism." 
Please don't look at this is a slam. It isn't it's just another view of salvation.
 	EASY BELIEVISM

     What is "Easy Believism"?  Usually the phrase "easy-believism" is a slam against those who teach that salvation is not by human works, but by faith in Jesus Christ alone.  It is clear from the Scriptures that salvation is received by faith only in the finished work of Jesus Christ.  "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works lest any man should boast (Ephesians 2:8,9)."

     "Easy Believism" is a way of saying that salvation by faith in Jesus Christ alone is just too easy.  "It is too simple," they say.  Those who use the phrase "easy believism" are saying that there must be more to salvation than just faith in Jesus Christ.

http://www.biblelineministries.org/articles/basearch.php3?action=full&mainkey=EASY+BELIEVISM


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> My eternal destiny will have no effect on my actions or attitude today or tomorrow.  God is who He is, and who He is requires that I stand in awe.  I just don't see any magnitude in the question.



The magnitude to the question is to show me and possibly others what they see personally as proof of their personal salvation. It varies between believers and I believe it very well could vary as salvation is a gift of God. 
My supervisor likes to say, God want put on you more than you can handle.


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## panfried0419 (Apr 6, 2013)

Pray for forgiveness, forgive others, accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and pray and mediate when gone astray. Get back on the path and don't take short cuts. I'm not perfect by no means. I just pray a lot. Actually a ton. Even when I dont realize it.


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## Israel (Apr 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> The question of proof of salvation, or assurance of salvation, whether in reference to others or myself, is of such a low interest that it only enters my mind when I hear it from others.  Even then it is boring except that I am often told that I'm missing something, and it would be disrespectful not to give some consideration to the possibility (rethink my position, I guess).
> 
> _My eternal destiny will have no effect on my actions or attitude today or tomorrow.  God is who He is, and who He is requires that I stand in awe.  I just don't see any magnitude in the question._
> 
> Now that I think about it, I'm not sure why I responded; maybe I'm just wondering if anyone else feels the same.



I don't mean to sound disrespectful (man, is that always a set up, huh? I don't mean to sound cruel, I don't mean to hurt you, I don't mean to be dismissive...BUT...) to the OP...cause from what I have seen of him he is thrashing the bushes continually...looking for any place he has not seen that the Lord may be in. God forbid I discourage a genuine seeker.

BUT....

I think so often of Shawshank Redemption when the question of "Are you Saved" or some derivative comes up.
When Red meets the parole board, tired of the many times he has "performed" and been rejected...sought freedom with what he hopes will be a clever response to convince them he can have his "ice cream" now.

"Daddy, I'm sorry...I promise I'll be good...CAN I HAVE ICE CREAM NOW?"
And so wearied he finally loses all interest in seeking to "be" anything for them that he responds to their question of:
"Red, do you believe you have been rehabilitated?"

With:, "Sonny, that's just a made up (expletive deleted)  word so that young men like yourself can wear a suit"

He goes on to say that maybe what they really want to know is he sorry for what he did.
If you've seen the movie I needn't go on.

Like him, I find so many words either inadequate, misused, or simply a means the speaker has employed, perhaps even ignorantly, to gain an advantage...because he still lives in the place where advantage is all there ever is to gain.

Jesus is Lord. I can say this not because I believe so doing will make me "saved"...for truly, I do rarely if ever consider it.
Jesus is Lord...cause in almost every way and every circumstance I have either tried to disprove it practically (even while confessing it)...when doubting it...when thinking I knew a better way, when...even thinking I was moving in the most "faith" the world has ever seen...I was wrong...but not forsaken...and discovering someone who...unlike me in almost every way (OK...every way)...still "allows" for me.

Once someone who either believed I was walking in the spirit...or thought I knew "how to" once asked me ...How do you learn to walk in the spirit?" All I could say was..."by not".
Nothing else "works". Nothing else beside Jesus makes sense anymore.

If I see Jesus at all, all I can say is I see the one to whom I would always "like" to say "I always go to the Lord first"...but the truth is...He knows better.
I see the one who is perfectly unoffended by being the last one I turn to in almost everything...and always...always...is waiting patiently.

I really don't think about where that "leaves" me in regards to being saved. 
I think about this:
"How do you do it, man? How can you always be like YOU?"


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## hummerpoo (Apr 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> I don't mean to sound disrespectful (man, is that always a set up, huh? I don't mean to sound cruel, I don't mean to hurt you, I don't mean to be dismissive...BUT...) to the OP...cause from what I have seen of him he is thrashing the bushes continually...looking for any place he has not seen that the Lord may be in. God forbid I discourage a genuine seeker.
> 
> BUT....
> 
> ...



Thank you my friend.

The point I intended to convey was the same as yours.  I obviously failed, and will continue in seeking to understand how I failed.

Your counsel is of great value.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I do respect your answer and the reason you answered is because the Holy Spirit lead you to answer. You are so assure of your salvation that nothing you do matters. You view salvation as a gift directly from God and nothing you do even enters into the equation.
> The Lordship Salvation believers(did I mention I've been studying this?) view this differently.
> I do respect your view and it is very common in the Christian community. The Lordship Salvation believers call this view "Easy-Believism."
> Please don't look at this is a slam. It isn't it's just another view of salvation.
> ...



I can only suggest, as I and others have in the past, that you appear to have too many sources of information.
God Bless.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

I don't feel as I've been fair by putting ya'll on the spot and not myself. By not having a belief in "eternal salvation" it makes it harder for me to answer the question. I will try as best I can. I did say if you didn't feel comfortable answering then don't.
I believe I'm saved because I believe Jesus died for my sins. I feel like a changed person because of that. I feel the Holy spirit in me. I believe it's more of a spiritual thing to be saved. 
That's where my problem is. I think I'm trying to make it more of a works salvation than it actually is. Maybe I'm saved but not sanctified and I'm getting the two mixed up. 
I still have trouble forgiving people. I'm not totally honest with people. Especially at work if it will get me in trouble I'll tell a lie. I don't always stand up for God in conversations. When family members say derogatory things  about blacks or Mexicans, I don't take a stand. I don't follow the New Covenant commandments like I should. Pretty much like the Lordship Salvation video showed, it has me second guessing my fruits and not my faith.
I'm definitely "thrashing the bushes". I want to know what God wants me to do. I don't care that much about the teachings of man. I do understand I have no way to understand God except through man. So yes I'm not a mainsteam believer, so i will surely "thrash the bushes."


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

Assurance is the confident realization of that security.
(5) Finally, people often lack assurance because they have erroneously been taught that they should look to themselves and their works as the primary proof of their salvation.

http://bible.org/seriespage/assurance-salvation

I'm leaning towards this easy believism teaching. Salvation is from God.


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## Israel (Apr 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Thank you my friend.
> 
> The point I intended to convey was the same as yours.  I obviously failed, and will continue in seeking to understand how I failed.
> 
> Your counsel is of great value.



Ain't that funny? Failed? Hardly...it was only the presence of your post that provoked me to say anything at all.

It seems that in considering HIM...questions about "how'm I doing" become so much less than relevant.
All I see is total need. And all he shows me is total sufficiency.

And brother, I am sure I need you...and others...far more than I know. 


But, I hope to keep discovering.


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## Israel (Apr 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't feel as I've been fair by putting ya'll on the spot and not myself. By not having a belief in "eternal salvation" it makes it harder for me to answer the question. I will try as best I can. I did say if you didn't feel comfortable answering then don't.
> I believe I'm saved because I believe Jesus died for my sins. I feel like a changed person because of that. I feel the Holy spirit in me. I believe it's more of a spiritual thing to be saved.
> That's where my problem is. I think I'm trying to make it more of a works salvation than it actually is. Maybe I'm saved but not sanctified and I'm getting the two mixed up.
> I still have trouble forgiving people. I'm not totally honest with people. Especially at work if it will get me in trouble I'll tell a lie. I don't always stand up for God in conversations. When family members say derogatory things  about blacks or Mexicans, I don't take a stand. I don't follow the New Covenant commandments like I should. Pretty much like the Lordship Salvation video showed, it has me second guessing my fruits and not my faith.
> I'm definitely "thrashing the bushes". I want to know what God wants me to do. I don't care that much about the teachings of man. I do understand I have no way to understand God except through man. So yes I'm not a mainsteam believer, so i will surely "thrash the bushes."


Brother, I hope you know I was commending you for thrashing dem bushes.
Keep knocking...keep seeking...keep asking...peel every onion you find...dig dig dig...be careful of assumptions...(especially one's own) and if I have anything to say that may be of some small use it is this...don't be ashamed of being needy...of "wanting" everything...as much as the spirit will prompt you...never settle for less than Jesus all the time, in every situation, at every moment. Cause he is the "everything" you are created to desire...the fulfillment of your being...your "reason".
The truth is either he is everywhere to be seen or we of all people are the most delusional.
Or...as Paul was not reluctant to say when facing the "hard" question (is it true? is the resurrection the real deal?)  then we are of all people the most to be pitied.
Now...ain't that funny...?
Cause I don't see Jesus wanting no pity...and I sure don't see Paul backing down an iota...yes...we have pinned our hopes right there...Jesus is alive...and he keeps proving it.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> It seems that in considering HIM...questions about "how'm I doing" become so much less than relevant.



Amen and Amen!!


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## gordon 2 (Apr 6, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Amen and Amen!!



In my case "How am I doing." Is not about adding or taking away credits to my account. It is the "how" in the question.... as in "How can I take my miserable soul to the streets...to the halls of power... and really be effective as a servant in our kingdom,  in our house, now and tommorrow." What can I do now to prepare for tommorrow. How can I sharpen my ear...to the ways of god. How can I do this, How can I do that... How should that be done, How has it been done in the past... How come? etc...

I have at the most 20 yrs left on this earth... How will I do God's will for myself and for others...How?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

Israel said:


> Brother, I hope you know I was commending you for thrashing dem bushes.
> Keep knocking...keep seeking...keep asking...peel every onion you find...dig dig dig...be careful of assumptions...(especially one's own) and if I have anything to say that may be of some small use it is this...don't be ashamed of being needy...of "wanting" everything...as much as the spirit will prompt you...never settle for less than Jesus all the time, in every situation, at every moment. Cause he is the "everything" you are created to desire...the fulfillment of your being...your "reason".
> The truth is either he is everywhere to be seen or we of all people are the most delusional.
> Or...as Paul was not reluctant to say when facing the "hard" question (is it true? is the resurrection the real deal?)  then we are of all people the most to be pitied.
> ...



Sometimes I have a hard time understanding you but this time I understand completely. Thanks for the words of encouragement.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

panfried0419 said:


> Pray for forgiveness, forgive others, accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and pray and mediate when gone astray. Get back on the path and don't take short cuts. I'm not perfect by no means. I just pray a lot. Actually a ton. Even when I dont realize it.



I do feel terrible when I sin and ask for forgiveness. I do need to work on praying more. One thing that makes me think about my salvation is when I see Christians doing things they shouldn't. Christians who have assurance of salvation. I know I shouldn't judge but then I read Matthew 7:22-23 and I wonder how do I know?

Matthew 7:22-23 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?'23)Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

And when I read the parable of the Wedding Feast.
Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 6, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> In my case "How am I doing." Is not about adding or taking away credits to my account. It is the "how" in the question.... as in "How can I take my miserable soul to the streets...to the halls of power... and really be effective as a servant in our kingdom,  in our house, now and tommorrow." What can I do now to prepare for tommorrow. How can I sharpen my ear...to the ways of god. How can I do this, How can I do that... How should that be done, How has it been done in the past... How come? etc...
> 
> I have at the most 20 yrs left on this earth... How will I do God's will for myself and for others...How?



What gives me such joy about Israel's sentence is the succinctness.
If you'll forgive my reading more than I'm truly qualified to read; I see nothing of the “I” in what you have said concerning “how”, and where the “I” is absent, we are assured that The Spirit will work out the “how”.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

Sometimes I worry and often I'm afraid. I've read that those aren't traits of Christians with assurance of salvation. 
I'm trying to find proof of my salvation and stuff like this enters my mind. This is why I wished I believed in election. I recall a forumite saying, how can anyone read the Bible and not believe in election. 
Anyway we can't help how God has lead us to believe. The important thing is to believe. I believe this is something I must figure out on my own, the assurance not the salvation. I'm either saved or I'm not, that is of God. I'm pretty sure of that. Maybe in the end it doesn't matter if I know because God knows.
I can only believe, have faith, help others, forgive others, be obedient to God, repent, witness, follow the New Covenant commandments, study & learn, live by example, fear God, worship, pray, and try to become more Christlike. 
That looks like a plateful and it is but I think I can do it. I can do it because the Holy Spirit will help me do it. Me and Jesus, we got our own thing going. I may never be a Paul or a Watchmen Nee and maybe God doesn't expect me to. Maybe God doesn't want me to give away all my possessions, leave my family, and join him. Maybe God didn't give me the power to go to prison for him. Maybe God doesn't expect me to go to a foreign country for him. I do wish I could stand up for him within my family and work environment though. that's something I'll work on. Maybe I'm too meek and humble. When a family member wants to cheat on his income tax or cheat the insurance company, I'm going to make a stand and say NO!
I'll have to pray more often as to what God expects of me. I firmly believe salvation is between God and the individual. Meaning it could be completely different for you than me. This doesn't mean you can't believe in Jesus. That has to be a part of everyone's salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

I just read this:
2. The entire book of First John was written as a "test" for determining the reality of salvation. Verse three of Chapter one tells us: "What we have seen and [ourselves] heard we are also telling you, so that you too may realize and enjoy fellowship as partners and partakers with us. And [this] fellowship that we have (which is a distinguishing mark of Christians) is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ, the Messiah." The fellowship enjoyed by genuine Christians is proof positive of salvation. Those who claim Christ, but yet rarely attend church to worship God and associate with other believers, are possibly fooling themselves!

This has lead me to believe that Proof of Salvation isn't necessary for me. I'll go on living my life for Christ and the Kingdom of God. 
My proof is of little concern to me. I'll continue to fear God, respect God, worship God, and be obedient to God. If he feels my belief in him and his son Jesus as my savior is sufficient for my salvation, then that's all I can ask for. Amen to God for considering me worthy of his choice. I'll sleep better tonight knowing my salvation is in his hands and not mine. It is Easy after all. 
Hopefully I can honor him for his decision.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 6, 2013)

So to all of the "Lordship Salvation" believers. That concept might be a part of your salvation, and I'm not doubting that it is, I don't believe it is a part of my salvation. 
I've prayed about it, thought about it, even lost sleep about it. I hope it leads you down the correct path. I can't fault you for following that path. I just feel it's not the path God wants me to go down. 
I hope and pray that we all get to the same place no matter what path we take. Some have assurance, I have HOPE. The Bible speaks of both equally. Maybe my hope is your assurance. I have "Blessed Hope of Salvation." I will sleep much better tonight thanks to the Holy Spirit's guidance away from that video.
Please don't take this away from your guidance of the video.
The common denominator is that we all believe Jesus died for our sins. If anyone takes a different path from that belief, he is completely wrong and lost.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 8, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> What gives me such joy about Israel's sentence is the succinctness.
> If you'll forgive my reading more than I'm truly qualified to read; I see nothing of the “I” in what you have said concerning “how”, and where the “I” is absent, we are assured that The Spirit will work out the “how”.



I know. So was Paul with I. Everything in Christ includes my I. My problem with sin is not the flesh, my problem with sin is my mind. I am accused everyday by saints of being unsaved. I am accused by catholics of not being one. I am to the kingdom--which is not yet to some. I am a worker of Is... I am forgiving... slow to anger, I sin unknowingly.  In all in all, my hope, you are right I am mostly I....

Now...I think that it is very easy to focus all in Christ, and loose your life... Not all were given faith sufficent to pray "How"?.

Maybe.... I am not ashamed of my nakedness...and to my father and parent...my I is innocent trust. ???

Keep a place for me in your heart... someday I will grow up.

Maybe...

Now this is a specific concern I have about "all in Christ".  Is it possible for a person to be all in Christ and not be to the church, the church being the religious? I know many that are to Christ, but have no use for the institution of the church. Their I in Christ reduced to less prejudice, less bigotry for having rid the institution of the church from their salvation, so they believe, and making themselves above all...useless, not even worried on "How does justice work my Lord?"

Does the gospel call us to works other than working out our own salvation? Having made peace with God, shown love and justice, called to goodness in our walk... "How" seems a real good question as I continue in the promise of hope and our kingdom.


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## irishredneck (Apr 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's pretty amazing that they could feel the power of the Holy Spirit. It doesn't explain all the missionaries killed in action though. I would hate to think they weren't saved.



It is amazing. Satan has shown the village people Heaven, they told me I serve the God who lives 'above the earth' they could tell me about the golden streets in that place and the river that runs through it, no sickness or pain and the bright light but the Devil has told them that God doesn't love the people in the village and they will never get into heaven so thats why they don't follow God. These people who have never seen a Bible or heard any scripture, can almost quote word for word all the passages of scripture that describe heaven, that was the most amazing thing for me. You cannot get more real than that. 

Of course the missionaries were saved. The Bible is full of martyrs, just because you are a Christian, doesn't mean you won't face persecution or die for your faith - just look what happened to Jesus.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 8, 2013)

irishredneck said:


> It is amazing. Satan has shown the village people Heaven, they told me I serve the God who lives 'above the earth' they could tell me about the golden streets in that place and the river that runs through it, no sickness or pain and the bright light but the Devil has told them that God doesn't love the people in the village and they will never get into heaven so thats why they don't follow God. These people who have never seen a Bible or heard any scripture, can almost quote word for word all the passages of scripture that describe heaven, that was the most amazing thing for me. You cannot get more real than that.
> 
> Of course the missionaries were saved. The Bible is full of martyrs, just because you are a Christian, doesn't mean you won't face persecution or die for your faith - just look what happened to Jesus.



Irish why do you say.... these people had been schooled by satin? Did they learn about heaven from missionaries??? Fight off if they were schooled by fire and brimstone, "this old world of sin and sorrow" agaisnt missionaries that told them God loved the world, them included. 

I don't know but, if a missionaries came to my people and said that God, the creator did not love my people, I would be concerned to associate with men and women such as this... and I'd know them for their description of heaven if they were the first to give it.

This reminds me of North American christians who go on Holy Land pilgrimages, as tourists and try to convert Holy Land christians to "true" christianity.... because really according to them Holy Land christians are "not saved"... If I was a Holy Land christian not only descriptions of heaven would make me suspect....


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## irishredneck (Apr 8, 2013)

I'm not sure I understand your question..you went off on a bit of a tangent that doesn't really apply to anything I said. Maybe I worded it wrong.

Yes satan has told them about heaven and he11, he even showed it to them. They didn't learn about heaven from us when they are the ones who have seen it, they taught us about things they have seen and these people had never seen white people or missionaries though they knew of God satan lied to them and said that God doesn't love them. Some of them are now believers and love The Lord.


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## gordon 2 (Apr 9, 2013)

Sorry Irish. I missunderstood. My fault.


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## irishredneck (Apr 9, 2013)

Thats fine. Its hard to explain your spiritual views and convey them appropriately on an internet forum. Theres always so much I want to say but its too confusing & time consuming to type...and then you have all the replies to deal with


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## StriperAddict (Apr 9, 2013)

Israel said:


> All I see is total need. And all he shows me is total sufficiency.
> 
> And brother, I am sure I need you...and others...far more than I know.
> 
> ...


 
This was worth a bump and an amen, thanks


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## gemcgrew (Apr 10, 2013)

Can we sit in the dirt with Job, all eat up with sores, and say "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him"?
I can say with full confidence that assurance revealed itself when I ceased to look for it in myself.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Can we sit in the dirt with Job, all eat up with sores, and say "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him"?
> I can say with full confidence that assurance revealed itself when I ceased to look for it in myself.



And with that I think we can say, proof isn't necessary. Who would we be proving it to anyway?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> And with that I think we can say, proof isn't necessary. Who would we be proving it to anyway?



Satan.The great liar himself.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Satan.The great liar himself.



He already knows who has salvation.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> He already knows who has salvation.



He already knew Jesus was the Son of God too, but it didn't stop him from tempting Him.


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## mtnwoman (Apr 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> He already knew Jesus was the Son of God too, but it didn't stop him from tempting Him.



I agree, I don't think satan is all knowing all the time. I do believe that he (satan) only knows about what we speak, not about our heart or what we think and he tempts us in the areas we have been a failure/missed the mark/ in....he hasn't ever tempted me to rob a bank, but he sure knows my passed actions/sins and will try to nail me in those areas. Rebuke him and he will flee...and that's something WE have to do...God will give us the strength to rebuke satan, but will not keep us from surrendering ourselves to temptation. God gives us the tools, we have to learn how to use them.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> He already knew Jesus was the Son of God too, but it didn't stop him from tempting Him.



I agree. He certainly knows our weaknesses. Does he have any power over Christians? He must or he wouldn't tempt us. Some feel he only goes after Christians because everyone else is already his. I don't believe this.
What can satan do to a Christian, just mess up his sanctification process?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 10, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. He certainly knows our weaknesses. Does he have any power over Christians? He must or he wouldn't tempt us. Some feel he only goes after Christians because everyone else is already his. I don't believe this.
> What can satan do to a Christian, just mess up his sanctification process?



Satan will do to us what ever our flesh allows.He can't touch what belongs to God( our soul) but he can certainly affect our flesh, by us being weak, and not putting on the full armour of God.

Also...the reason he would come after Christians is to take away the joy of our salvation...He can't take what belongs to God! He can and tries to hide the light of Jesus under our flesh by showing the lost our actions when we sin.He decieves the lost in trying to show them  no difference in the Christian and the non believer, by tempting our flesh and us giving in.It is ultimately shame on us though...Im afraid the excuse that the devil made me do it, wont work for the Holy Spirit.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 10, 2013)

Now that Satan has entered the topic I'm looking at how he can use his cunningness to confuse Christians  He could do this by trying to complicate Salvation's simplicity. I've been guilty of complicating my salvation lately myself. Maybe I'm being dooped by Satan and had better be on guard. He's trying to complicate my Salvation. He could be doing this to other Christians as well. Thanks for the heads up.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.


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## panfried0419 (Apr 13, 2013)

Artful I must say your post are amazing! Amen brother!


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 29, 2013)

What is my proof of salvation?
Because Jesus said I am and if his word isn't eternally true there is no hope, never has been, and never will be.  Salvation doesn't rest, can't rest on anything I have or have not done, something I either began to do or quit doing, because to be honest with you I'm the problem and so are you.  The solution has to be Christ or nothing.  There's a blinding simplicity to it.
It's a simple truth that children accept so easily because of their humility but adults are blind to because of their pride.  It's a pride that says, "There's gotta be more to it than that." when there's simply not.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 29, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now that Satan has entered the topic I'm looking at how he can use his cunningness to confuse Christians  He could do this by trying to complicate Salvation's simplicity. I've been guilty of complicating my salvation lately myself. Maybe I'm being dooped by Satan and had better be on guard. He's trying to complicate my Salvation. He could be doing this to other Christians as well. Thanks for the heads up.
> 2 Corinthians 11:3-4
> But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his cunning, so your minds should be corrupted from the SIMPLICITY that is in Christ.4)For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.



There aren't a lot of promises I can make, but here's one I can be sure of.

I promise that satan is trying to aggravate all your Christian convictions.  But Satan will never tempt you to become a more dedicated Christian.
He'll pervert your thinking.  He'll tell you to 'go ahead and eat the fruit'.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> What is my proof of salvation?
> Because Jesus said I am and if his word isn't eternally true there is no hope, never has been, and never will be.  Salvation doesn't rest, can't rest on anything I have or have not done, something I either began to do or quit doing, because to be honest with you I'm the problem and so are you.  The solution has to be Christ or nothing.  There's a blinding simplicity to it.
> It's a simple truth that children accept so easily because of their humility but adults are blind to because of their pride.  It's a pride that says, "There's gotta be more to it than that." when there's simply not.


Wonderful!
Salvation is as simple as it is deep.

Let's face it, it wouldn't be fair if God decided to make something "hard" for us...what we have made hard, we have made hard for our own selves.


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## SemperFiDawg (Apr 30, 2013)

Israel said:


> Wonderful!
> Salvation is as simple as it is deep.
> 
> What strikes me most is the pristine beauty of its simplicity.
> ...



You are absolutely correct and echo Romans 9:32

“Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. 33 As it is written:
Look! I am putting a stone in Zion to stumble over
and a rock to trip over,
yet the one who believes on Him
will not be put to shame.”


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 30, 2013)

So I guess Matthew 7:21-23 is about false conversions. My only concern is these people have "proof of salvation" if only in their own minds. They think they are saved by Grace too. I can only assume they don't do the will of Jesus' Father. Can ya'll agree that there are men who claim to be Christians that will be suprised by their proof?

Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

I want to do the will of Jesus' Father which is in Heaven and i'm not saying that is works.


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## Israel (Apr 30, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So I guess Matthew 7:21-23 is about false conversions. My only concern is these people have "proof of salvation" if only in their own minds. They think they are saved by Grace too. I can only assume they don't do the will of Jesus' Father. Can ya'll agree that there are men who claim to be Christians that will be suprised by their proof?
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> 
> I want to do the will of Jesus' Father which is in Heaven and i'm not saying that is works.


Forgive me this wordiness...but I don't find it an accident that the Lord had me consider some things this morning well before I looked to this forum. This is simply what I had posted on FB, but I find it rather appropriate here:

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Isa 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Mar 1:14-15 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

For as much as light had anything to do with coming into being of itself, so does our faith.
God decreed light, and light is. Jesus decreed repent and believe, and men responded. They had to. God had purposed, with no less power than “let there be light” to speak through the mouth of Jesus Christ.

This word of faith continues in power, remains present, and prospers in whomever God has ordained it be sent. All of being is based upon, and responds to authority. Things are according to God’s will, and likewise, things are not according to that same will.
Even apparent resistance has been ordained of God, and although it often remains puzzlement for the disciple, Paul searched out this matter well in Romans.

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Like Peter, we may be troubled after receiving instruction from the Lord. We know we are to walk in obedience, but what about “them”?

“What will this man do?” was Peter’s question after being told his role. Jesus carefully lets us know what he does with and about others really is not of our concern when we have heard the call. What is it to us? And although it may seem the most common and pressing of questions at times, we may ask, from where does it come, and why the Lord’s reproof of it?

What if God, in the making of man in his image and likeness is so unconcerned with what seems to resist him, in order to bring man to that same understanding, allows men he has ordained to grow in that image and likeness by experiencing that same resistance to learn his disposition about it? In order to be “like him”?

There is no disciple that has not known, in some measure, grief from those who deny the Lord. And, I daresay, there are just as many disciples that have considered how much “better” things would be if they didn’t have to endure it.

Yet perhaps it is to see firstly, God’s mercy to us, when we were in unbelief, and secondly that our call to be merciful toward those who despise us for the faith can no more dissuade our mercy, impact our being, change our nature, than our unbelief could dissuade the Lord’s mercy toward us.

Again, I am reminded, it is not “our own” mercy we minister, but what we have been given stewardship of, the mercy and truth of God revealed through the gospel. And, as Jesus tells us, it is precisely here that we prove ourselves true sons of his Father, not in loving those that love us, but by loving those who do not.

Some may say…yes, that is very hard. Or, one could say, as I have learned, impossible for me. Do I try to summon warm feelings that I don’t have? Do I try to pretend I like what I don’t like? Do I 'try hard" to believe...what I really don't? For God sees the pretense and I find myself reproved. Again, O wretched man that I am! I cannot!

What if the precise impossibility of it, the complete frustration of my attempts, and the plain demonstration of utter failure are to bring me to seek “how” the Lord himself overcame? Was it by trying harder? I don’t see that in him, or recommended by him. God knows I see no pretense in him, in fact I see everything that is not. What did Jesus “do”…what did Jesus say he did always and only while walking in this place of contradiction?

Joh_5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you,_ The Son can do nothing of himself_, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

And again:

Joh_5:30_ I can of mine own self do nothing_: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

Therefore, we discover, there is nothing ever to be done “of ourselves”. We don’t try to be God’s children, we don’t try to love, or forgive, we don’t try to be anything at all.

As Jesus kept his eyes and ears open to only what the Father does and says, we are now to do likewise toward the Lord. God has made him head over all things to the church, and we are told, Christ is the head of every man. Therefore the question is not “What would Jesus do?” But, “What is Jesus doing?”
To know that one must see him, now, not imagine him elsewhere, in some other time, doing some other thing.

Can this be? Can we be given to see Jesus as Jesus beheld/beholds the Father, always?

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Do we? 
Live in the spirit, that is. 
And what are we told is this ministry of the spirit in which we live?


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## nhancedsvt (Apr 30, 2013)

I don't think I necessarily have "proof." I think the purpose of faith is to believe even when there is no proof. I place my trust and faith in the Lord based on the promise of salvation.

I do know one thing though, one day we all will find out which side is right and which is wrong. What's the downside if I'm wrong? So what I gave up a few days a week to attend church, believed in a higher power, and tried to live my life to a higher standard. However, if non-believers are wrong IMO the cost is far greater. An eternity in HE11 is not something I want to gamble on.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Apr 30, 2013)

being baptized in the Holy Ghost.      That was physical evidence for me and those who witnessed it.  

Bandy


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## StriperAddict (Apr 30, 2013)

Brother Israel... you may have me bite the social media bullet yet & get on facebook!  (A miracle of biblical proportions )




Israel said:


> Yet perhaps it is to see firstly, God’s mercy to us, when we were in unbelief, and secondly that our call to be merciful toward those who despise us for the faith can no more dissuade our mercy, impact our being, change our nature, than our unbelief could dissuade the Lord’s mercy toward us.
> 
> Again, I am reminded, it is not “our own” mercy we minister, but what we have been given stewardship of, the mercy and truth of God revealed through the gospel. And, as Jesus tells us, it is precisely here that we prove ourselves true sons of his Father, not in loving those that love us, but by loving those who do not.


 
I will grapple with the rest of your dialouge, and I say this as being both blessed and challenged by the same!  But the above words especially rang true in heart.  What love and yes, what mercy!

I also had some gleanings this morning on the subject as I dissected the "Ragamuffin gospel book" again.  I was reminded that the 12 walked within the total assurance (well, not fully of Spirit before Pentecost, but pls follow  )  of what was fully seen... the very flesh of Christ, his bodily form... He was WITH them!  And yet, not to drown out the excitement with unstoppable grief...
"it is necessary that I go away" ...
These same diciples might have had a bent on the seeing of the body, had it not been for Providence to loose it from their sight...
to reveal the inner and more permament "mystery"...
the power of the resurrected Christ, 

_witnessed_ by



 faith!


Yes, they (we) wanted to touch, wanted to see...
But to not move the Body aside and put it on a cross would have scarred these 12 into nothingness.  It was time, Gods time for that wonderful mercy and love to be known beyond what the eyes see... 

"blessed is he who has not seen, and yet believes."


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## shawn mills (Apr 30, 2013)

One simple word. FAITH


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## hummerpoo (Apr 30, 2013)

Israel said:


> Forgive me this wordiness...but I don't find it an accident that the Lord had me consider some things this morning...



ha! ...wordiness indicates excess, of which I see none.  Your response is far preferable to my thought of "It's all about God", which would likely be beneficial to no one.  Well said brother.


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## gtparts (May 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree. He certainly knows our weaknesses. Does he have any power over Christians? He must or he wouldn't tempt us. Some feel he only goes after Christians because everyone else is already his. I don't believe this.
> What can satan do to a Christian, just mess up his sanctification process?



Power over Christians??? Only what a Christian will allow him. It is the struggle we have against the flesh, even when we can be victorious in Christ.


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## gtparts (May 1, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> So I guess Matthew 7:21-23 is about false conversions. My only concern is these people have "proof of salvation" if only in their own minds. They think they are saved by Grace too. I can only assume they don't do the will of Jesus' Father. Can ya'll agree that there are men who claim to be Christians that will be suprised by their proof?
> 
> Matthew 7:21-23: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
> 
> I want to do the will of Jesus' Father which is in Heaven and i'm not saying that is works.



'Lord, Lord, did *we* not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?

Quite different than, 'Lord, we did nothing. You prophesied through us, you drove out demons and performed miracles through us. We rejoice that you are glorified, for you alone are worthy. The bondservant (slave) is not greater than his master, nor is the disciple greater than the teacher.'

Christ's reply was in recognition of those who cried,'Lord, Lord,...', their motivation was self promotion; not a response to need based on the love of God, but the admiration of men.


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## Artfuldodger (May 1, 2013)

gtparts said:


> 'Lord, Lord, did *we* not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?
> 
> Quite different than, 'Lord, we did nothing. You prophesied through us, you drove out demons and performed miracles through us. We rejoice that you are glorified, for you alone are worthy. The bondservant (slave) is not greater than his master, nor is the disciple greater than the teacher.'
> 
> Christ's reply was in recognition of those who cried,'Lord, Lord,...', their motivation was self promotion; not a response to need based on the love of God, but the admiration of men.



The only point I was making is they thought they had salvation. Not everyone who has proof of salvation has salvation.


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## Ronnie T (May 1, 2013)

gtparts said:


> Power over Christians??? Only what a Christian will allow him. It is the struggle we have against the flesh, even when we can be victorious in Christ.



    Only what a Christian will allow.


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## Big7 (May 14, 2013)

There are few more confusing topics than salvation. It goes beyond the standard question posed by Fundamentalists: "Have you been saved?" What the question also means is: "Don’t you wish you had the assurance of salvation?" Evangelicals and Fundamentalists think they do have such an absolute assurance. 

All they have to do is "accept Christ as their personal Savior," and it’s done. They might well live exemplary lives thereafter, but living well is not crucial and definitely does not affect their salvation.


Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to the hot place.

PERIOD!

Read more HERE:
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation


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## Ronnie T (May 14, 2013)

Welcome back Seven.  When did you get out?
Good to have you back around here.


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## Big7 (May 14, 2013)

Ronnie T said:


> Welcome back Seven.  When did you get out?
> Good to have you back around here.



Been on some other sites.

I always come home though.

How you doin' Ronnie?


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## Ronnie T (May 14, 2013)

I'm doin great brother.
Hope things are well for you.
Welcome home.


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## QSmith007 (May 15, 2013)

I KNOW I'm saved because I have a PERSONAL "RELATIONSHIP" with The LORD.


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## Madman (May 15, 2013)

I have no proof, I have a promise, I have a hope of eternal life in the presence of my creator.

How do I know?  

Just as Jesus told Peter "This has not been revealed to you by flesh and blood but by my father in heaven" the Holy Spirit has witnessed to me about the redeeming blood of my Lord Jesus Christ.  He was there, He was a witness to the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ and by his testimony I believe in my heart and confess with my lips that Jesus of Nazareth is Lord and Savior.


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## 04ctd (May 15, 2013)

QSmith007 said:


> I KNOW I'm saved because I have a PERSONAL "RELATIONSHIP" with The LORD.



Amen. I know I am saved...*because I am.*



I spent last weekend at Warner Robbins & Fort Benning with the wife's niece's family (her son graduated Basic), 

she had lived with us for awhile, back before I had a personal praying relationship with Jesus Christ.

and all weekend she kept saying "boy, he sure has changed...he SURE has changed"

my wife led a Bible Study for everyone, and between that, and because my change was so phenomenal....my niece and her husband went back home, joined a church, and got baptized Tuesday night, with about ten of their family in attendance. (most have not been in a church in years)



if you want to know why He kept it simple, read this website:
http://whycatholicsdothat.com/why-catholics-should-take-the-eucharist-directly-on-the-toungue/


I do not believe you can lose your salvation...you can sure do a sorry job of keeping it....
but Jesus ain't a thumb tack, you can't take Him off the cross, put Him back on, take Him off...


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