# Arguments agains Atheism by some of todays best thinkers



## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

Ravi Zacharias Why I am not an Athiest


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Ravi Zacharias Why I am not an Athiest




Which of his arguments do you find the most compelling?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

Ravi and John Lennox:  Is Faith Delusional?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

Frank Turek  "I don't have enough faith to be an atheist."


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

This right here is called a good old fashioned filibuster.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

Semper Fi,

I'd be honored if you saw fit to choose one topic from any of those videos and discuss it with me in depth.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

Maybe one of my favorite speakers, John Lennox.  He also doesn't have enough faith to be an atheist.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Semper Fi,
> 
> I'd be honored if you saw fit to choose one topic from any of those videos and discuss it with me in depth.



Done feeding the trolls.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Done feeding the trolls.



This petty exchange is how SemperFi has chosen to live out the edict "shake the dust from your feet" and "not cast pearls before swine".

Your actions make for fine testimony.


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## bullethead (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Done feeding the trolls.



Says the guy who pops in here JUST to stir trouble and give insults. 
SemperTrollDawg


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## WaltL1 (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> This petty exchange is how SemperFi has chosen to live out the edict "shake the dust from your feet" and "not cast pearls before swine".
> 
> Your actions make for fine testimony.


He makes multiple posts.
You try to engage him in intelligent conversation about the posts that HE made.
He then deems YOU/us the troll.

I cant imagine why we don't take him seriously


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> He makes multiple posts.
> You try to engage him in intelligent conversation about the posts that HE made.
> He then deems YOU/us the troll.
> 
> I cant imagine why we don't take him seriously



SemperFi,

I want to make amends with you.  I want to be able to discuss the points you are trying to make in a cordial, civilized way in the spirit of mutual inquiry.  If I disagree with you it doesn't mean that I'm trying to be mean to you.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Says the guy who pops in here JUST to stir trouble and give insults.
> SemperTrollDawg



Posting apologetic material in an apologetic forum is stirring trouble?   Who knew?  You know you could just do something radical and ignore it.   Though you're prescient insight may be missed, with prayer we will get through it.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Maybe one of my favorite speakers, John Lennox.  He also doesn't have enough faith to be an atheist.







It might be fun in a juvenile way to try to out video each other but I'd rather we take a few points that they bring up and discuss them.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> He makes multiple posts.
> You try to engage him in intelligent conversation about the posts that HE made.
> He then deems YOU/us the troll.



This was you very first reply to my first post today.  



> Its not suprising you feel that this is an honest assessment of science in relation to religion.
> Anyone with a basic understanding of what science is and isn't sees this for the big pile of steaming carp that it is.



Regardless of whether you feel this is engaging and/or intelligent, I think it speaks for itself.  Need I say more?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It might be fun in a juvenile way to try to out video each other but I'd rather we take a few points that they bring up and discuss them.



So Dawkins starts by saying that at the age of nine he realized that his Christian faith was due to being born in a certain place.  Believers often admit that this fact is unsettling yet it's not enough reason to doubt the truth of their beliefs.  I'm curious as to how Christians compartmentalize this undeniable fact.  Is it just an annoying detail that you don't think deserves any thought?  Why is it so easily dismissed?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

Dawkins goes on to say that he thinks that in this day and age that religious explanations (of natural phenomena) are superseded, outdated, petty and parochial.  Why would he think that?


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> So Dawkins starts by saying that at the age of nine he realized that his Christian faith was due to being born in a certain place.



Yet he's now an atheist, therefore he himself is a living contradiction of his pet thesis.  Kind of a meta-narrative for atheism.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> This was you very first reply to my first post today.
> 
> 
> 
> Regardless of whether you feel this is engaging and/or intelligent, I think it speaks for itself.  Need I say more?



That wasn't trolling. I looked up your author before I said a word. He's a big time intelligent design proponent.
Hence my comment -


> Its not suprising you feel that this is an honest assessment of science in relation to religion.


This comment -


> Anyone with a basic understanding of what science is and isn't sees this for the big pile of steaming carp that it is.


Is in reference to his points.


> Need I say more?


Nope.


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## bullethead (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Posting apologetic material in an apologetic forum is stirring trouble?   Who knew?  You know you could just do something radical and ignore it.   Though you're prescient insight may be missed, with prayer we will get through it.



Sfd, you fool nobody.
You made embeded a few interesting videos and when someone wanted to talk to you about the videos that you posted, you called him a troll. 

And you HAD to post a pic of Troll spray when nobody was even remotely trolling anyone.

You are the only true troll in the forum.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Sfd, you fool nobody.
> You made embeded a few interesting videos and when someone wanted to talk to you about the videos that you posted, you called him a troll.
> 
> And you HAD to post a pic of Troll spray when nobody was even remotely trolling anyone.
> ...



Let's let bygones be bygones.



SemperFiDawg said:


> Yet he's now an atheist, therefore he himself is a living contradiction of his pet thesis.  Kind of a meta-narrative for atheism.



How so?  Can you explain what you mean by this?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

Lennox opens by saying "God is real.  Ultimate reality is a personal, eternal and supernatural God who has revealed himself in the Universe, in His word the Bible and supremely in Jesus Christ His son, who Lord and God incarnate."

Wow.

That's allot of material there. Where does anyone want to start?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

Lennox states that Dawkins believes that "religion builds a firewall in the mind against scientific truth...but it's not so with Biblical Christianity".

I'd like to hover on that for a little while as well.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

Lennox goes on to point out that Jesus is reported to have said "I am the truth".  

I'd like to get into that, too.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

Dawkins theorizes that we see all the things that we make and project that all things were made by a being like us.  Is that possible?


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## atlashunter (Jan 22, 2018)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Done feeding the trolls.



Says the troll. I thought you said this was from some of today's greatest thinkers?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Lennox opens by saying "God is real.  Ultimate reality is a personal, eternal and supernatural God who has revealed himself in the Universe, in His word the Bible and supremely in Jesus Christ His son, who Lord and God incarnate."
> 
> Wow.
> 
> That's allot of material there. Where does anyone want to start?



I'll start with the premise that God is real.  To me, the best argument that God is real is the notion that every effect must have a cause.  It's ultimately an infinite regression proposition.  If one were so inclined as to desire a Prime Mover, and that's ultimately what it is, an inclination or a preference, then one must declare that "The buck stops here", at God.  No other explanation necessary.  We just stop asking where things came from when it comes to God.  Why can we do that?  Because we prefer it.  God didn't come from anywhere. He is eternal.  Oh boy.  We just interjected the eternal.  What kinds of things can be eternal?  In science class they said that energy cannot be created or destroyed.  How do they know?  Like all things in science it's a best guess from what we calculate, observe or theorize.  But how do they REALLY know?  They don't.  But deists claim that they know, and how do they know?  Because of personal revelation.

That's what Lennox said.  

He also said that God revealed Himself in the Bible.  This Book is a hard one for me.  Besides all the supernatural claims, of which there are a troubling many, there's what appear to be contradictions in historical accounts ie. how and when Judas killed himself etc.  I'll steer clear of those problems for now because I want to see if I can make an apologetic argument for the accuracy of the Bible.

The best I can do is relegate most of the supernatural claims to metaphor.  Some of them are held dear as literal, a distinction supported by such things as "literary style", indicating that the writers were making accurate accounts of actual events like the resurrection.  How in the world do I make sense of a claim like a resurrection? I'm pleading for someone to show me the path to believing such a thing actually happened.  

It seems to me that what happens to believers is that they FIRST, FIRST,  have some revelation that God exists; He speaks to them, they experience a miracle, they feel Him, and _THEN_ they proceed to believe that the Bible and all its claims are true.  I don't know of anyone that says that they read the Bible and what it said made so much sense to them that they were compelled to believe that Christ is Lord.  It's always Christ revealed himself and then they believed in the veracity of the Bible.  Tell me if I'm wrong.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Lennox states that Dawkins believes that "religion builds a firewall in the mind against scientific truth...but it's not so with Biblical Christianity".
> 
> I'd like to hover on that for a little while as well.



The Bible says "Let us reason together"

This is a good piece form Answers in Genesis:

https://answersingenesis.org/apologetics/faith-vs-reason/

_"Faith Is Necessary for Reason

Biblical faith and biblical reasoning actually work very well together. In fact, faith is a prerequisite for reason. In order to reason about anything we must have faith that there are laws of logic which correctly prescribe the correct chain of reasoning. Since laws of logic cannot be observed with the senses, our confidence in them is a type of faith.


ambush80 said:



			I'm not sure this is true.  Laws of logic can absolutely be observed with our senses.  It's how we know that the ball hidden under the cup is still there.  What does it take to believe that the ball has disappeared or transported or simply vanished and is no more?  I contend that it requires something other than reason.
		
Click to expand...


For the Christian, it is a reasonable, justified faith. The Christian would expect to find a standard of reasoning that reflects the thinking of the biblical God; that’s what laws of logic are.6 On the other hand, the unbeliever cannot account for laws of logic with his or her own worldview.7

Since laws of logic are necessary for reasoning, and since the Christian faith is the only faith system that can make sense of them,8 it follows that the Christian faith is the logical foundation for all reasoning (Proverbs 1:7; Colossians 2:3). This isn’t to say, of course, that non-Christians cannot reason. Rather, it simply means they are being inconsistent when they reason; they are borrowing from a worldview contrary to the one they profess.


ambush80 said:



			If the standard of reasoning is the Biblical God then why does He contradict Himself?  Why doesn't he know where Adam is?  Why doesn't he know that His experiment sucked and that He has to start over after erasing His mistake with a flood.  If it was a divine plan all along, why did they write it like God was experimenting?  I don't like the skeptic argument that "God wouldn't do it like that" and I wish all my fellow skeptics would abandon it as an argument, after all, a god can and will do things however He/She sees fit and it doesn't have to agree with our sense of anything. 

Can anyone explain to me what the author means by "they are borrowing from a worldview contrary to the one they profess."?  It sound like something Deepak Chopra or Ben Shapiro would say
		
Click to expand...


Since reason would be impossible without laws of logic, which stem from the Christian faith, we have a very good reason for our faith: without our faith we could not reason. Even unbelievers (inconsistently) rely upon Christian principles, such as logic, whenever they reason about anything. So the Christian has a good reason for his or her faith. In fact, the Christian faith system makes reason possible."_ 


ambush80 said:


> "Laws of logic stem from the Christian faith".
> 
> Should I believe that resurrections sometimes take place?  Should I believe that the Earth can stop turning without catastrophic results?  Why?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> So Dawkins starts by saying that at the age of nine he realized that his Christian faith was due to being born in a certain place.  Believers often admit that this fact is unsettling yet it's not enough reason to doubt the truth of their beliefs.  I'm curious as to how Christians compartmentalize this undeniable fact.  Is it just an annoying detail that you don't think deserves any thought?  Why is it so easily dismissed?


Where is the undeniable fact?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> Where is the undeniable fact?



That for the most part, where and when you are born will influence your worldview, particularly your religious affiliation.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> That for the most part, where and when you are born will influence your worldview, particularly your religious affiliation.


OK, so what?


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## ky55 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> OK, so what?



So maybe I’m oversimplifying things, but why are billions of Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims destined for He!! because they weren’t blessed to be born in Christian countries?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> OK, so what?



So circumstance, particularly in the case of religious belief, has more of an effect on one's concept of what is true as opposed to another factor like scientific discovery .  An Indian in the Amazon jungle might believe that mice spontaneously generate  from piles of trash or hay like  Medieval Europeans did.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2018)

ky55 said:


> So maybe I’m oversimplifying things, but why are billions of Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims destined for He!! because they weren’t blessed to be born in Christian countries?


I am still trying to see how this would be unsettling for the Christian.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

ky55 said:


> So maybe I’m oversimplifying things, but why are billions of Hindus, Buddhists, and Muslims destined for He!! because they weren’t blessed to be born in Christian countries?



Because that's how God wanted it.  Who is the clay to question the Potter?  We have to get away from the weak argument that "God wouldn't do it that way".  If He is, then He do what He do.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

As far as I can tell, the best we can hope for in order for everybody to be intellectually honest is for people to say "I prefer a God or I don't".   Any evidence is ultimately meaningless in the context of our vast ignorance.  That goes for the believer and the non believer.

Where I would prefer to couch the discussion is in an argument for utility.   Are we better off believing in god or not.  I think we should be able to argue that without getting into woo woo land.


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## ky55 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> I am still trying to see how this would be unsettling for the Christian.



Not even another annoying detail. 
Ok, got it.



ambush80 said:


> If He is, then He do what He do.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Not even another annoying detail.
> Ok, got it.


What annoying detail do you have in mind?


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Not even another annoying detail.
> Ok, got it.



Perhaps you didn't see my reply.  Check it out and tell me what you think.  Sometimes we talk passed each other before the interwebs can catch up.


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## ky55 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> What annoying detail do you have in mind?



My apparently incorrect assumption that most Christians care about the “lost souls” who go to He!! I guess. 

Seems like this was from the Calvinist folks.....

The chosen few..

We are the pure and chosen few
And all the rest are da..ed
There’s room enough in He!! for you
We don’t want heaven crammed.


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## ky55 (Jan 22, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Perhaps you didn't see my reply.  Check it out and tell me what you think.  Sometimes we talk passed each other before the interwebs can catch up.




Sometimes active discussions pass up my pitiful typing skills. 
Yes, I saw it, and I see exactly what you mean.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2018)

ky55 said:


> My apparently incorrect assumption that most Christians care about the “lost souls” who go to He!! I guess.
> 
> Seems like this was from the Calvinist folks.....
> 
> ...


He11 was created for that very purpose.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> What annoying detail do you have in mind?


From "our" perspective the fact that you believe what you do and more importantly what you think/judge about other people is the result of nothing more than the geography of where your mother spit you out.
To us that's significant.

To you/Christians that may be completely insignificant. In fact I would assume that you believe God intended it that way.


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## gemcgrew (Jan 22, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> From "our" perspective the fact that you believe what you do and more importantly what you think/judge about other people is the result of nothing more than the geography of where your mother spit you out.
> To us that's significant.


That you believe it to be fact is significant.



WaltL1 said:


> To you/Christians that may be completely insignificant. In fact I would assume that you believe God intended it that way.


The Christian understands the significance of "you must be born from above".


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## WaltL1 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> That you believe it to be fact is significant.
> 
> 
> The Christian understands the significance of "you must be born from above".





> That you believe it to be fact is significant.


I'm not following you. That I believe what to be fact? 
This? -
The vast majority of religious people believe the religion and its teachings of where they were raised. That certainly doesn't apply to everybody or all circumstances but a large majority.


> The Christian understands the significance of "you must be born from above"


ok.


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## ambush80 (Jan 22, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> That you believe it to be fact is significant.
> 
> 
> The Christian understands the significance of "you must be born from above".



It's truly humbling to think of how many vessels  of wrath were made per the elect.   Fear and trembling is a proper response.


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## bullethead (Jan 23, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It's truly humbling to think of how many vessels  of wrath were made per the elect.   Fear and trembling is a proper response.



The kicker is, no matter how much a Christian lives their life thinking that they are part of the elect, no matter how hard they think it....they may not be. 
 Believing in a religion where you must be chosen doesnt automatically make you chosen.
Many may get to the pearly gates only to find them locked.

It's much easier to believe in a god and believe that you are special to that god instead of thinking about death and the reality that none of the religious beliefs are even remotely true.


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## Israel (Jan 23, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It's truly humbling to think of how many vessels  of wrath were made per the elect.   Fear and trembling is a proper response.



Yes. 
Yes it is.
And facetiousness has its place of exposure in it.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The kicker is, no matter how much a Christian lives their life thinking that they are part of the elect, no matter how hard they think it....they may not be.
> Believing in a religion where you must be chosen doesnt automatically make you chosen.
> Many may get to the pearly gates only to find them locked.
> 
> It's much easier to believe in a god and believe that you are special to that god instead of thinking about death and the reality that none of the religious beliefs are even remotely true.


Has anybody EVER heard a Christian say "I believe in the whole Elect thing (in whatever form) but I'm not one of them" ?
I haven't.


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## bullethead (Jan 23, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Has anybody EVER heard a Christian say "I believe in the whole Elect thing (in whatever form) but I'm not one of them" ?
> I haven't.


Truth
They elect themselves.


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## ambush80 (Jan 23, 2018)

Israel said:


> Yes.
> Yes it is.
> And facetiousness has its place of exposure in it.



It's a grave prospect.  I can find humor in it only because it isn't true.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 23, 2018)

I made the mistake of trying to read your post just because it was short.....



Israel said:


> Yes.
> Yes it is.
> And facetiousness has its place of exposure in it.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 23, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Truth
> They elect themselves.



I don't understand the elect thing. I think I have heard many of them say they believe or hope they are part of the few. IDK that I've ever heard one say that they are in fact one of them? Maybe they can chime in. There are probably those from both sides.


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## ambush80 (Jan 23, 2018)

TripleXBullies said:


> I don't understand the elect thing. I think I have heard many of them say they believe or hope they are part of the few. IDK that I've ever heard one say that they are in fact one of them? Maybe they can chime in. There are probably those from both sides.



Good to see you around 3x.  

If I were to become a Christian I would be compelled by scripture to believe in Predestination.  Here's why:

1.  God is always all powerful and sovereign.  There are many passages in the Bible that indicate that God is in control of everything all the time since from infinity.  

2. God is omniscient.  He sees all and knows all since infinity.  

If point 1 is true then for freewill to exist one would have to assume that God turns off his sovereignty to let YOU be in charge if even for just that moment.  If He does that then He is no longer sovereign over you for that moment. You might surprise Him with what you've done.  That's impossible because of point 2.  In order for God to be surprised by anything you do He would have to turn off his omniscience power.  I don't see how that can be done given the Biblical description of how His omniscience works.  

In Genesis when God says "Adam?  Where are you?"  do you think God really doesn't know where Adam is or what he's done?

I'd be interested to see if the believers reasons differ from mine.


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 23, 2018)

That's an interesting way to put it. If I was to subscribe to that then I guess I'd hope that I was elected. How could I know that I was?

Does this explanation for predestination lead you to be more comfortable with your current stance that Christianity is not true? Because it's how he made you to be anyway.


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## bullethead (Jan 23, 2018)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's an interesting way to put it. If I was to subscribe to that then I guess I'd hope that I was elected. How could I know that I was?
> 
> Does this explanation for predestination lead you to be more comfortable with your current stance that Christianity is not true? Because it's how he made you to be anyway.



I figure that if there was a god and I was supposed to believe ...I would.
If there is a god and I am not supposed to believe ...I am on course.  Id have no chance anyway.

Or
There may be a god, unlike anything man can imagine, and all these man made religious books are nothing close to being true.

Or

No god(s) and we are all whacked in the skull.


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## ambush80 (Jan 24, 2018)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's an interesting way to put it. If I was to subscribe to that then I guess I'd hope that I was elected. How could I know that I was?
> 
> Does this explanation for predestination lead you to be more comfortable with your current stance that Christianity is not true? Because it's how he made you to be anyway.



From what I can tell from the predestination guys here they believe that you will know by the fruits.  They seem to accept that they might not actually be elect but they believe that they should act like it.  

If Christianity is true then I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and I may end up being one of the elect after all.  To believe I would still need some "just for me" revelation.


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## oldfella1962 (Jan 24, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Good to see you around 3x.
> 
> If I were to become a Christian I would be compelled by scripture to believe in Predestination.  Here's why:
> 
> ...



God literally can't see him because he's wearing ASAT camo - or at least that's my interpretation!


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## oldfella1962 (Jan 24, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I figure that if there was a god and I was supposed to believe ...I would.
> If there is a god and I am not supposed to believe ...I am on course.  Id have no chance anyway.
> 
> Or
> ...



oh there is no dispute whatsoever that we are all "whacked in the skull".  Every religion I know of emphasizes humility and that we humans need to constantly improve ourselves. I disagree with the Bible saying humans have dominion over animals though - we are a different species but only because we evolved to fit a certain niche in nature, and as our world changes we will be replaced by whatever species evolves to fit the changed environment.


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## WaltL1 (Jan 24, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> oh there is no dispute whatsoever that we are all "whacked in the skull".  Every religion I know of emphasizes humility and that we humans need to constantly improve ourselves. I disagree with the Bible saying humans have dominion over animals though - we are a different species but only because we evolved to fit a certain niche in nature, and as our world changes we will be replaced by whatever species evolves to fit the changed environment.


Cockroaches.
In the end cockroaches will have dominion over all


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## WaltL1 (Jan 24, 2018)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's an interesting way to put it. If I was to subscribe to that then I guess I'd hope that I was elected. How could I know that I was?
> 
> Does this explanation for predestination lead you to be more comfortable with your current stance that Christianity is not true? Because it's how he made you to be anyway.


Interesting question.
For me, Ive never really considered it from that angle.
Probably because based on my religious upbringing, I don't remember a "some are chosen to believe, some are not" type thing. It was ANYBODY/EVERYBODY qualified as long as you believed and went along with the program.
So the concept of "God made me NOT to believe" never really crosses my mind.


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## oldfella1962 (Jan 24, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> From what I can tell from the predestination guys here they believe that you will know by the fruits.  They seem to accept that they might not actually be elect but they believe that they should act like it.
> 
> If Christianity is true then I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and I may end up being one of the elect after all.  To believe I would still need some just for me revelation.



"you will know by their fruits" always gets me to thinking: let's take for example a lifelong Christian who is a dedicated expert theologian preacher and has "checked every block" the Bible says to check in their daily living. Giving thankfully 10 percent of their income to the church, encouraged thousands to repent & accept Jesus, etc. etc. By their fruits anyone can plainly see they are heaven bound. 

Then one day they are found dead with a cocktail of drugs in their system in a murder-suicide with a tranny hooker and millions of dollars in faithful church member offerings in their personal bank account. 

So one day their fruits show they are at the right hand of God and the next day not so much. My point is other humans cannot discern who is truly saved/dedicated/faithful by outside appearances of living the Christian life AKA "being known by their fruits."


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## WaltL1 (Jan 24, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> "you will know by their fruits" always gets me to thinking: let's take for example a lifelong Christian who is a dedicated expert theologian preacher and has "checked every block" the Bible says to check in their daily living. Giving thankfully 10 percent of their income to the church, encouraged thousands to repent & accept Jesus, etc. etc. By their fruits anyone can plainly see they are heaven bound.
> 
> Then one day they are found dead with a cocktail of drugs in their system in a murder-suicide with a tranny hooker and millions of dollars in faithful church member offerings in their personal bank account.
> 
> So one day their fruits show they are at the right hand of God and the next day not so much. My point is other humans cannot discern who is truly saved/dedicated/faithful by outside appearances of living the Christian life AKA "being known by their fruits."


Great point.
Add it to the long list of contradictions.
"Only God can know your heart"
" Judge them by their fruits".


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## oldfella1962 (Jan 24, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Great point.
> Add it to the long list of contradictions.
> "Only God can know your heart"
> " Judge them by their fruits".



and then we get hit with "Judge not lest ye be judged." 
That's pretty much "splitting the difference" between the two I guess.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2018)

TripleXBullies said:


> That's an interesting way to put it. If I was to subscribe to that then I guess I'd hope that I was elected. How could I know that I was?
> 
> Does this explanation for predestination lead you to be more comfortable with your current stance that Christianity is not true? Because it's how he made you to be anyway.



That's a very good question.

On whom must you depend for answer?


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## bullethead (Jan 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> That's a very good question.
> 
> On whom must you depend for answer?



Depends on whoever the person believes in as their god doesn't it?


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## TripleXBullies (Jan 30, 2018)

Israel said:


> That's a very good question.
> 
> On whom must you depend for answer?



I'm not a pred, so IDK.


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## Israel (Jan 30, 2018)

What's a pred?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 30, 2018)

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm not a pred, so IDK.


Do you not purpose previous to doing?


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## ambush80 (Jan 31, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not purpose previous to doing?



People do many things and they don't know why, like spasm.


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## bullethead (Jan 31, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> Do you not purpose previous to doing?



Like a computer program?

At such and such a time you roll over in your sleep. Then a dream about not being able to remember your school locker combination. Then after the alarm goes off to wake up you will stub your toe on the cedar chest. Then a yawn. Brush teeth.  Start coffee.  Toaster is supposed to short out. Etc etc etc of every second of every day?

A Robot?


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## gemcgrew (Jan 31, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> People do many things and they don't know why, like spasm.


Is that why you moved my question from one object to another? If you didn't do that with purpose, was it rational on your part?


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## ambush80 (Feb 1, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> Is that why you moved my question from one object to another? If you didn't do that with purpose, was it rational on your part?



Sorry, maybe I didn't understand your first question.  I interpreted it to ask whether or not people think of a reason to do something before they do it.  Neurophisics seems to show that they don't.


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## 660griz (Mar 2, 2018)

Just the title alone made me laugh:
"Arguments agains Atheism by some of todays best thinkers"


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## Israel (Mar 2, 2018)

Pat...I'd like to buy another "T"?

(But, to be fair, it said best thinkers not best spelers)


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## 660griz (Mar 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> Pat...I'd like to buy another "T"?
> 
> (But, to be fair, it said best thinkers not best spelers)



To be clear, I wasn't referring to the missing 'T'.


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## oldfella1962 (Mar 6, 2018)

660griz said:


> To be clear, I wasn't referring to the missing 'T'.



Maybe this argument was presented by today's best _drinkers_.


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## 660griz (Mar 9, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> Maybe this argument was presented by today's best _drinkers_.



That would explain it.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

Ambush, you asked a lot of good questions in here. Sorry I was so late to the game


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## ambush80 (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Ambush, you asked a lot of good questions in here. Sorry I was so late to the game



Chime in any time!


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