# Masons



## magnumrecovery

Does anyone here know why some churches are agains the church members become masons.


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## PWalls

Probably because brick layers don't make enough money to tithe properly. 

If you do a search on "Masons" on this board, you will find a host of threads on it. Not trying to be smart, but this was a particularly hot topic a little over a year ago.


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## dawg2

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/freemasonfaq.html

Why is Freemasonry incompatible with Christianity?
Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity because it promotes indifferentism. Indifferentism is the heretical belief that all religions are equally legitimate attempts to explain the truth about God which, but for the truth of His existence, are unexplainable. Such a view makes all truths relative and holds that God can be equally pleased with truth and error. Because Christians believe that God has definitively revealed Himself in the person of Jesus Christ, and desires that all men come to the knowledge of this truth, indifferentism is incompatible with Christian faith. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me." (John 14:6).

Freemasonry's teachings and practices also result in syncretism which is the blending of different religious beliefs into a unified whole. This is evidenced most especially by Masonry's religious rituals which gather men of all faiths around a common altar, and place all religious writings along side the Bible on the Masonic altar. This is also demonstrated by the Lodge's prayers and its unique names and symbols for God and heaven. Syncretism is the logical consequence of indifferentism. 

The Lodge's practice of requiring its members to swear immoral oaths is also incompatible with Christianity. These oaths require a Christian to swear on the Holy Bible that he will uphold a code of moral conduct that prefers Masons over non-Masons, and to preserve secret passwords and handshakes. Such oaths are gravely immoral because their subject matter is trivial or does not give rise to the necessity of an oath. These oaths are also sworn under symbolic, blood-curdling penalties of physical torture and death called self-curses (e.g., having my throat cut across, and my tongue torn out by its roots). These penalties show a lack of respect for God and amount to blasphemy which is a serious sin.


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## Ulysses

Pretty much sums it up.


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## ryano

hmmmm. My uncle was a Southern Baptist preacher for 40 some odd years and was a Mason for years and years.............I have no doubts he is in heaven right now.

there are also some Masons on this board that are as fine a Christian as you will find. I know deacons of churchs that are also Masons...........all fine people.

sorry but I dont buy that crap.


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## dawg2

ryano said:


> hmmmm. My uncle was a Southern Baptist preacher for 40 some odd years and was a Mason for years and years.............I have no doubts he is in heaven right now.
> 
> there are also some Masons on this board that are as fine a Christian as you will find. I know deacons of churchs that are also Masons...........all fine people.
> 
> sorry but I dont buy that crap.



"...the literal meaning (of the Bible) is for the vulgar only." (Albert Pike, "Digest of Morals and Dogma," p. 166) "Masonry makes no profession of Christianity...but looks forward to the time when the labor of our ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple...in which there shall be but one alter and one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastra, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran and Holy Bible shall lie...and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Mohammedan, the Jew and the Christian may kneel..." ("The Kentucky Monitor." Fellowcraft Degree, p. 95) The removal of the name of Jesus and references to Him in Bible verses used in the ritual are "slight but necessary modifications." (Albert Mackey, "Masonic Ritualist." p. 272) 

The Words of the Lord are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. (Psa. 12:6) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God... (II Tim. 3:16) ...if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:20)


I agree with this below, there are some really good people who are Masons:

Thus Leo XIII (1884) expressly states: 


What we say, must be understood of the Masonic sect in the universal acceptation of the term, as it comprises all kindred and associated societies, but not of their single members. There may be persons amongst these, and not a few, who, although not free from the guilt of having entangled themselves in such associations, yet are neither themselves partners in their criminal acts nor aware of the ultimate object which these associations are endeavouring to attain. Similarly some of the several bodies of the association may perhaps by no means approve of certain extreme conclusions, which they would consistently accept as necessarily following from the general principles common to all, were they not deterred by the vicious character of the conclusions.


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## dawg2

The deep anti-church sentiment of French masons—most likely shared in full by their Italian brothers—is amply reflected in the following quote from a 20 September, 1902 speech by Senator Delpech, president of the Grand Orient de France: 


“The triumph of the Galilean has lasted twenty centuries. But now he dies in his turn. The mysterious voice, announcing (to Julian the Apostate) the death of Pan, today announces the death of the impostor God who promised an era of justice and peace to those who believe in him. The illusion has lasted a long time. The mendacious God is now disappearing in his turn; he passes away to join in the dust of ages the divinities of  India, Egypt, Greece, and Rome, who saw so many creatures prostrate before their altars. Bro. Masons, we rejoice to state that we are not without our share in this overthrow of the false prophets. The Romish Church, founded on the Galilean myth, began to decay rapidly from the very day on which the Masonic Association was established.”[8]


Doesn't sound very "Christian" oriented.

Also, I would have nothing to do with anything Carducci, a noted satanist had his hands in...or any other satanist for that matter.

“The formula of the Grand Architect, which is reproached to Masonry as ambiguous and absurd, is the most large-minded and righteous affirmation of the immense principle of existence and may represent as well the (revolutionary) God of Mazzini as the Satan of Giosue Carducci (in his celebrated Hymn to Satan); God, as the fountain of love, not of hatred; Satan, as the genius of the good, not of the bad.” 

just my .02


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## Ulysses

ryano said:


> hmmmm. My uncle was a Southern Baptist preacher for 40 some odd years and was a Mason for years and years.............I have no doubts he is in heaven right now.
> 
> there are also some Masons on this board that are as fine a Christian as you will find. I know deacons of churchs that are also Masons...........all fine people.
> 
> sorry but I dont buy that crap.



I would respectfully say that your uncle was a fine man, and probably a good preacher, but a very poor Mason. The Masonic belief system in the "Great Architect" as God is heresy and anti-Christian.

I guess you can be a merely social member of the Masons, without subscribing to their heretical beliefs, but why would you want to?

Edited to add:

That would be very much like hanging out at a mosque for social interation and philanthropy, but claiming that you don't believe in Allah....


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## ryano

Ulysses said:


> I would respectfully say that your uncle was a fine man, and probably a good preacher, but a very poor Mason. The Masonic belief system in the "Great Architect" as God is heresy and anti-Christian.
> 
> I guess you can be a merely social member of the Masons, without subscribing to their heretical beliefs, but why would you want to?
> 
> Edited to add:
> 
> That would be very much like hanging out at a mosque for social interation and philanthropy, but claiming that you don't believe in Allah....



thats your opinion.............sure is funny how everyone I know that is a Mason is a Christian that goes to Church every time the doors are open.

other than that, I really dont know much about free masonry.


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## Ulysses

ryano said:


> I really dont know much about free masonry.



Pretty much says it all right there. Maybe it's different today, but the Mason "religion" has historically been anti-Christian and heretical.


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## FX Jenkins

I'm to poor to practice philanthropy outside the church...


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## FX Jenkins

PWalls said:


> Probably because brick layers don't make enough money to tithe properly.



that was funny...


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## Ulysses

FX Jenkins said:


> I'm to poor to practice philanthropy outside the church...



No one is too poor to give to others. It just may not be money that you give.


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## Jim Thompson

dear lord today...within an hour or so...we get a racism thread and a free masons thread.

aught to be a fun day of folks bashing each other for no reason other than boredom or ignorance


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## Ulysses

Jim Thompson said:


> dear lord today...within an hour or so...we get a racism thread and a free masons thread.
> 
> aught to be a fun day of folks bashing each other for no reason other than boredom or ignorance



For no other reason? Read this again, and then talk about ignorance:



> Masonry makes no profession of Christianity...but looks forward to the time when the labor of our ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple...in which there shall be but one alter and one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastra, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran and Holy Bible shall lie...and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Mohammedan, the Jew and the Christian may kneel..."



If anyone wants to be a Mason, go right ahead...but how can you justify your decison in light of things like this??


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## Jim Thompson

Ulysses said:


> For no other reason? Read this again, and then talk about ignorance:
> 
> If anyone wants to be a Mason, go right ahead...but how can you justify your decison in light of things like this??



do a search on here and find HUNDREDS of posts on masons and read ALL of them and find all the great tidbits you like to support your argument or to denounce your argument.

no reason to rehash them (nothing new will be brought forward) and dig into yet another bloody battle


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## PWalls

Jim Thompson said:


> do a search on here and find HUNDREDS of posts on masons and read ALL of them and find all the great tidbits you like to support your argument or to denounce your argument.
> 
> no reason to rehash them (nothing new will be brought forward) and dig into yet another bloody battle



C'mon Jim. It's what makes this forum go round. 

And, for the record, Post #2 by yours truly suggested the "search" option. I am trying to mellow out some more. 

For the record, Dutchman has been known to answer questions on Masons via PM. Might want to try that route. He did a fine job of answering mine once upon a time.


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## FX Jenkins

Ulysses said:


> No one is too poor to give to others. It just may not be money that you give.



Let me say this in another way...I consider all of my philanthropy, the sum total of which is irrelevant, as an extension of my Christianity...


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## Jim Thompson

Pwalls, I know I know.

btw, here is a nice 400 reply thread to feed all the questions and fires etc

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=58110&highlight=free+masons


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## Doc_Holliday23

My Father (a pentecostal preacher) once asked a guy if he knew Christ and was saved.  The man said, "Of course I'm saved.  Don't you see my ring (a Masonic ring)."

My Dad said, "Oh.....  Is your other hand saved?"


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## Ulysses

FX Jenkins said:


> Let me say this in another way...I consider all of my philanthropy, the sum total of which is irrelevant, as an extension of my Christianity...



Oh, I get it. Sorry, I'm a little slow today. You're right on with that point of view.


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## PWalls

Jim Thompson said:


> btw, here is a nice 400 reply thread to feed all the questions and fires etc



Unlike a couple of other threads on that subject at the same time as that one that were not so "nice".


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## Mechanicaldawg

Why do most Masons hunt over corn?


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## dawg2

Jeff Young said:


> Why do most Masons hunt over corn?



or shoot does


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## leroy

there are alot of resources out there to research the masons and most important prayer and an open mind if you are considering joining. I know of alot of fine men that are masons several in my own Church but I could not do it with a clear heart and this came through alot of prayer on my part.


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## Wild Turkey

I really dont think a freemason cares what you think of him or his beliefs. He is true to himself and his cause.


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## Mechanicaldawg

Jeff Young said:


> Why do most Masons hunt over corn?



For the record I have no opinion about Masons. 

I was attempting to use humor to point out the folly of the ongoing discussion.


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## dawg2

dawg2 said:


> or shoot does



Nor do I have any opinions about Masons.  Just going by what I have read, seen, and heard, and what my religion says in that I can not join.


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## fish_o_men

ryano said:


> hmmmm. My uncle was a Southern Baptist preacher for 40 some odd years and was a Mason for years and years.............I have no doubts he is in heaven right now.
> 
> there are also some Masons on this board that are as fine a Christian as you will find. I know deacons of churchs that are also Masons...........all fine people.
> 
> sorry but I dont buy that crap.



Being a "fine" person doesn't get you to heaven.


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## jneil

Don't Masons practice some kind of "hocus pocus" or something, just like Jefferson, Franklin, Madison and the other Founding Fathers did?


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## Doc_Holliday23

Jesus does preach against "swearing yourself to any oaths" during the sermon on the mount.

If I had to guess I would say that a lot of people who are Masons either don't truly know some of the history (as far as the one world religion thing) or that those particular historical issues are not really preached and/or followed by Masons nowadays.  but that's just a guess...


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## FX Jenkins

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> My Father (a pentecostal preacher) once asked a guy if he knew Christ and was saved.  The man said, "Of course I'm saved.  Don't you see my ring (a Masonic ring)."
> 
> My Dad said, "Oh.....  Is your other hand saved?"



Yea I've heard that philosophy before...

My mother and a first cousin were speculating on the salvation of one of our deceased relatives and the first cousin responded, "well of course so and so was saved, he was a good Mason"  

so her next question was, "do all good masons know Jesus Christ as their personal savior?"


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## blindhog

My Dad was a Mason for years before he got saved, then began preaching and pastoring a church.

He left "that demonic organization" behind , in his words that is.


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## packrat

*Secret Society?*

I have friends who are MASONS and are fine men. I have been to one of those lodge friends nights where I think basically they are looking for recruits. I wasn't invited back, I musta not been "good material". The place was divided off into 4 sections with different levels and had a big thick bible in the center of the room. Don't know if it was KJV, NIV, or ABC, anyway the room was very ritualistic looking, Kinda creepy. Everyone has the right to choose however they wish but I did have a friend that was into it for a good long while and he told me that as he grew as a Christian he was convicted to leave the lodge. The masons do good things for people, which is great, but why keep it such a secret? Not to say that they haven't but I've never heard a mason witness to anyone about the LORD JESUS CHRIST. Good works are "only works" and won't get you anywhere. I don't care how many pecan log rolls you sell. I would feel much better about them if I could see them working as hard "witnessing" as they do collecting money at the front of Walmart. I am in no way bashing them but I can assure you that they are not a church-like group as many members lead people to think. They have helped many of children and elderly but if I was a member of a group or club, I would be proud to share every aspect of my organization. If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to fear. But that's just my opinion.

Ephesians
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 
 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.


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## dawg2

So why don't they say "Jesus Christ" in a Lodge?  Just curious...I have heard that from several members.


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## leroy

good post pack!!


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## ryano

fish_o_men said:


> Being a "fine" person doesn't get you to heaven.



mind pointing out where I said it did?


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## chriswheelus

I am a mason and also vice pres. of the shrine club in which I attend. I very much believe in the father, son and the holy ghost. Just because you are a mason or a shriner you dont have to remove God from your life.


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## Spotlite

Never had any deals with them. Been inside a mason lodge one time on a service call, kind of spooky. Know a guy that was going to join, but backed out, he said some of the rituals were a little off in lala land. But, thats 3rd party info, take it for what its worth.


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## Branchminnow

Ulysses said:


> Pretty much says it all right there. Maybe it's different today, but the Mason "religion" has historically been anti-Christian and heretical.



Actually it shows what is not known.


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## Branchminnow

Spotlite said:


> Never had any deals with them. Been inside a mason lodge one time on a service call, kind of spooky. Know a guy that was going to join, but backed out, he said some of the rituals were a little off in lala land. But, thats 3rd party info, take it for what its worth.



spot its not worth much...................


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## Pale Blue Dun

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Jesus does preach against "swearing yourself to any oaths" during the sermon on the mount.
> 
> If I had to guess I would say that a lot of people who are Masons either don't truly know some of the history (as far as the one world religion thing) or that those particular historical issues are not really preached and/or followed by Masons nowadays.  but that's just a guess...



There are a lot of people who join churches with the same mindset. I'd be willing to bet you could walk in to most any church of any denomination and 90% of the folks wouldn't know why they go there or what the main philosophy of the denomination was. Who founded it and when it was founded.

So I can see why someone would go uninformed into the Masons. 

It is totally against the teachings of my faith to be a member of the free masons.

Dan


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## Branchminnow

Ulysses said:


> For no other reason? Read this again, and then talk about ignorance:
> 
> 
> 
> If anyone wants to be a Mason, go right ahead...but how can you justify your decison in light of things like this??



How can YOU be so uninformed and take the opinion of others ??? Try it and see for yourself....kinda like being saved...........but then again alot of folks have never tried it kinda like the thread that was started about the professor and the doughnuts...

Onr more thing there are alot of catecisms in the masons as well. Kinda like some religions............


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## packrat

chriswheelus said:


> I am a mason and also vice pres. of the shrine club in which I attend. I very much believe in the father, son and the holy ghost. Just because you are a mason or a shriner you dont have to remove God from your life.



Then why the secrecy? When you all pray why don't you just say "God" or "In The Precious Name Of Jesus, Amen".
I am really curious about this and if you are a Shriner then you must have a few years under your belt, therefore having the answers to my question. I appreciate what is done for the children, but if the lodge is so darn good, why not share it's entirety with others? I just don't understand.


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## Branchminnow

blindhog said:


> My Dad was a Mason for years before he got saved, then began preaching and pastoring a church.
> 
> He left "that demonic organization" behind , in his words that is.



I have left the lodge as well................but not for any religios reasons, BTW it is a KJV and the old testament is quoted through out the catecisms.


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## Branchminnow

packrat said:


> Then why the secrecy? When you all pray why don't you just say "God" or "In The Precious Name Of Jesus, Amen".
> I am really curious about this and if you are a Shriner then you must have a few years under your belt, therefore having the answers to my question. I appreciate what is done for the children, but if the lodge is so darn good, why not share it's entirety with others? I just don't understand.



Ill answer because I was chaplain for 5 years...........NEVER did I not pray in the name of the FATHER, SON and the holy Spirit.


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## Pale Blue Dun

Branchminnow said:


> How can YOU be so uninformed and take the opinion of others ??? Try it and see for yourself....kinda like being saved...........but then again alot of folks have never tried it kinda like the thread that was started about the professor and the doughnuts...
> 
> Onr more thing there are alot of catecisms in the masons as well. Kinda like some religions............



Don't know what you are implying but I have an idea and I can assure you with 100% certainty that the masons are NOTHING like my church. My church will allow anyone to join regardless of race. I don't think that is true of the free masons unless you include clandestine lodges which, in my understanding of the word "clandestine" are not "true" masons.

Dan


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## Branchminnow

dawg2 said:


> So why don't they say "Jesus Christ" in a Lodge?  Just curious...I have heard that from several members.



Dont know about that lodge but it aint true in the one I used to frequent.


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## Branchminnow

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> My Father (a pentecostal preacher) once asked a guy if he knew Christ and was saved.  The man said, "Of course I'm saved.  Don't you see my ring (a Masonic ring)."
> 
> My Dad said, "Oh.....  Is your other hand saved?"



Now that is FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Branchminnow

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Don't know what you are implying but I have an idea and I can assure you with 100% certainty that the masons are NOTHING like my church. My church will allow anyone to join regardless of race. I don't think that is true of the free masons unless you include clandestine lodges which, in my understanding of the word "clandestine" are not "true" masons.
> 
> Dan



Not implying but the argument that the "rituals" are a bad immoral thing is kinda silly. Depending on what your definition of silly is........

Lord why did I even get started?


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## Spotlite

Jim Thompson said:


> dear lord today...within an hour or so...we get a racism thread and a free masons thread.
> 
> aught to be a fun day of folks bashing each other for no reason other than boredom or ignorance



wheres the racism thread

Oh nevermind, I remember you telling me I should consider picking beter threads to post in


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## packrat

Branchminnow said:


> Ill answer because I was chaplain for 5 years...........NEVER did I not pray in the name of the FATHER, SON and the holy Spirit.



If "CHRISWHEELUS" won't answer, then you spill the beans BRANCH, not only will I watch your back but the TRUE AND LIVING GOD will. Cut it loose for your Savior.
I WANT TO KNOW "PLEASE"


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## Branchminnow

FX Jenkins said:


> Yea I've heard that philosophy before...
> 
> My mother and a first cousin were speculating on the salvation of one of our deceased relatives and the first cousin responded, "well of course so and so was saved, he was a good Mason"
> 
> so her next question was, "do all good masons know Jesus Christ as their personal savior?"


No they dont, but neither do most folks who think they do.


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## Spotlite

Branchminnow said:


> spot its not worth much...................





you know 3rd party info is always correct.


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## Spotlite

packrat said:


> If "CHRISWHEELUS" won't answer, then you spill the beans BRANCH, not only will I watch your back but the TRUE AND LIVING GOD will. Cut it loose for your Savior.
> I WANT TO KNOW "PLEASE"



c`mon, Branch is pretty good fella, pick up a GON book.


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## packrat

*Spit It Out*

Then why the secrecy? When you all pray why don't you just say "God" or "In The Precious Name Of Jesus, Amen".
I am really curious about this and if you are a Shriner then you must have a few years under your belt, therefore having the answers to my question. I appreciate what is done for the children, but if the lodge is so darn good, why not share it's entirety with others? I just don't understand.


I KNOW BRANCH IS A FINE FELOW SO:
BRANCH, PRESENT MASON or FORMER MASON
Please answer my question.


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## ryano

Branchminnow said:


> Lord why did I even get started?



if you figure it out will you let me know?  Ive been asking myself the same thing


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## Branchminnow

packrat said:


> If "CHRISWHEELUS" won't answer, then you spill the beans BRANCH, not only will I watch your back but the TRUE AND LIVING GOD will. Cut it loose for your Savior.
> I WANT TO KNOW "PLEASE"



One thing i have NEVER worried about is Christ watching my back....he is ALWAYS in front and I watch his............he will stick CLOSER than a brother.........OR a brother Master Mason.


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## Branchminnow

ryano said:


> if you figure it out will you let me know?  Ive been asking myself the same thing



You know its the same thing over and over ................


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## packrat

*Brother*



Branchminnow said:


> One thing i have NEVER worried about is Christ watching my back....he is ALWAYS in front and I watch his............he will stick CLOSER than a brother.........OR a brother Master Mason.



I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT CHRIST CAN STICK A WHOLE LOT CLOSER THAN THE BROTHAS


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## Pale Blue Dun

One of you current or former masons please explain to me what a clandestine lodge is.


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## Branchminnow

Pale Blue Dun said:


> Don't know what you are implying but I have an idea and I can assure you with 100% certainty that the masons are NOTHING like my church. My church will allow anyone to join regardless of race. I don't think that is true of the free masons unless you include clandestine lodges which, in my understanding of the word "clandestine" are not "true" masons.
> 
> Dan



i will admit this is one reason I dont go back and am not a current dues paid member.

But this is not the only reason. But to lump ALL people who are masons and say that they are satanic or anything else is utterly SILLY.


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## Branchminnow

packrat said:


> I CAN ASSURE YOU THAT CHRIST CAN STICK A WHOLE LOT CLOSER THAN THE BROTHAS



You dont have to assure me my friend.


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## Pale Blue Dun

Branchminnow said:


> i will admit this is one reason I dont go back and am not a current dues paid member.
> 
> But this is not the only reason. But to lump ALL people who are masons and say that they are satanic or anything else is utterly SILLY.



Well, I am proud of you and your decision to do the right thing.

Dan


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## packrat

*Good Night*



packrat said:


> Then why the secrecy? When you all pray why don't you just say "God" or "In The Precious Name Of Jesus, Amen".
> I am really curious about this and if you are a Shriner then you must have a few years under your belt, therefore having the answers to my question. I appreciate what is done for the children, but if the lodge is so darn good, why not share it's entirety with others? I just don't understand.
> 
> 
> I KNOW BRANCH IS A FINE FELOW SO:
> BRANCH, PRESENT MASON or FORMER MASON
> Please answer my question.



IF NOBODY WANTS TO ANSWER THEN I'LL TAKE IT THAT THEY'RE EITHER SCARED, ASHAMED OR NOT WILLING TO STAND UP FOR THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR. BUT I STILL LOVE YA LIKE A BROTHER, JUST NOT A LODGE BROTHER.


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## Spotlite

How can I get one of those little motorcycles


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## Branchminnow

Former


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## Branchminnow

Spotlite said:


> How can I get one of those little motorcycles



Most people want the little Corvettes..............


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## Branchminnow

packrat said:


> Then why the secrecy? When you all pray why don't you just say "God" or "In The Precious Name Of Jesus, Amen".
> I am really curious about this and if you are a Shriner then you must have a few years under your belt, therefore having the answers to my question. I appreciate what is done for the children, but if the lodge is so darn good, why not share it's entirety with others? I just don't understand.
> 
> 
> I KNOW BRANCH IS A FINE FELOW SO:
> BRANCH, PRESENT MASON or FORMER MASON
> Please answer my question.



I answered the first two now for the last question.

This is more of MY thoughts than anything..........so take it for what its worth.....(prolly not much) the masonic lodge when I was going through it taught humility....simply stated if folks SEE what they are doing then they will want to support or join and do the same things ( such as providing food and sshelter for poor folks of the community etc) and not ANY fanfare at all. Its not seret, have you ever seen a lodge with high fences? ever seen a person who was a mason wear hoods or diguises to their meetings, if you want to know then go find out, BTW they DO NOT extend invitations for membership.


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## Spotlite

Branchminnow said:


> Most people want the little Corvettes..............



Hey that will work to, maybe I could pick up a Lesbian Hooters chick and take her to Golden Corall Sunday.


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## Branchminnow

Spotlite said:


> Hey that will work to, maybe I could pick up a Lesbian Hooters chick and take her to Golden Corall Sunday.



Now you are just messin ' with me.........


One more thing I d like to add here, one reason most of the masons on this board have not replied to this thread is because they teach not to be confrontational..............thats why I answered alot of the posts in this thread.


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## Branchminnow

Jeff Young said:


> For the record I have no opinion about Masons.
> 
> I was attempting to use humor to point out the folly of the ongoing discussion.



For the record.......I was


----------



## dutchman

packrat said:


> IF NOBODY WANTS TO ANSWER THEN I'LL TAKE IT THAT THEY'RE EITHER SCARED, ASHAMED OR NOT WILLING TO STAND UP FOR THEY'RE LORD AND SAVIOR. BUT I STILL LOVE YA LIKE A BROTHER, JUST NOT A LODGE BROTHER.



Dude, how about knocking that shift lock key off or quit screaming at us, will you?

I'm sorry I ever opened this thread. I can see that some things never change.


----------



## Ulysses

Branchminnow said:


> You know its the same thing over and over ................



It's the same thing over and over because no one will ever give a straight answer to sincere questions about the Masons. It's really not rocket science, guys.


----------



## FX Jenkins

This is the part where somebody starts ....

"2B1Ask1" or something like that...


----------



## chriswheelus

Thank you Branchminnow.


----------



## dawg2

Spotlite said:


> wheres the racism thread
> 
> Oh nevermind, I remember you telling me I should consider picking beter threads to post in



So he sent you here!


----------



## packrat

*Thank You*



Branchminnow said:


> I answered the first two now for the last question.
> 
> This is more of MY thoughts than anything..........so take it for what its worth.....(prolly not much) the masonic lodge when I was going through it taught humility....simply stated if folks SEE what they are doing then they will want to support or join and do the same things ( such as providing food and sshelter for poor folks of the community etc) and not ANY fanfare at all. Its not seret, have you ever seen a lodge with high fences? ever seen a person who was a mason wear hoods or diguises to their meetings, if you want to know then go find out, BTW they DO NOT extend invitations for membership.



THANK YOU BRANCH FOR THE ANSWERS SO FAR, BUT IF ANY FORMER OR PRESENT MASONS WILL ANSWER MY QUESTION I WILL DROP IT AND NOT EVEN POST ON THIS TOPIC AGAIN. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD DUTCH, I CAN ONLY TYPE WITH ONE FINGER SO I'M NOT SHOUTING AND THE SHIFT BUTTON ISN'T EVEN AN OPTION. SO IF I HAVE ANY BOLD TAKERS OF THIS CHALLENGE, ANSWER THIS?
WHY DON'T THEY PRAY USING THE  "HOLY NAME OF GOD" OR MAYBE END A PRAYER "IN THE PRECIOUS NAME OF JESUS"
AS I STATED BEFORE "ONE SINCERE DIRECT ANSWER" WILL SHUT ME AND I WON'T POST ON THIS TOPIC AGAIN,
I AM A MAN OF MY WORD.


----------



## Branchminnow

Ulysses said:


> It's the same thing over and over because no one will ever give a straight answer to sincere questions about the Masons. It's really not rocket science, guys.



the questions that were asked of me I answered.


----------



## Branchminnow

One more thing...if yall can show me in the scriptures (KJV ONLY) Proving that what you say is true, then I ll eat it. But it HAS to be MASON specific, NO SPECULATION whatsoever. no books from this guy or that guy, this religion or that religion. Scripture and only scripture will convince me. Anything else is not enough


----------



## Branchminnow

dawg2 said:


> So he sent you here!



Ole Jim is purdy slick aint he???


----------



## Branchminnow

packrat said:


> THANK YOU BRANCH FOR THE ANSWERS SO FAR, BUT IF ANY FORMER OR PRESENT MASONS WILL ANSWER MY QUESTION I WILL DROP IT AND NOT EVEN POST ON THIS TOPIC AGAIN. AND JUST FOR THE RECORD DUTCH, I CAN ONLY TYPE WITH ONE FINGER SO I'M NOT SHOUTING AND THE SHIFT BUTTON ISN'T EVEN AN OPTION. SO IF I HAVE ANY BOLD TAKERS OF THIS CHALLENGE, ANSWER THIS?
> WHY DON'T THEY PRAY USING THE  "HOLY NAME OF GOD" OR MAYBE END A PRAYER "IN THE PRECIOUS NAME OF JESUS"
> AS I STATED BEFORE "ONE SINCERE DIRECT ANSWER" WILL SHUT ME AND I WON'T POST ON THIS TOPIC AGAIN,
> I AM A MAN OF MY WORD.




Which question, rat? (I always wanted to call somebody that) I thought I answered all of them.


----------



## dawg2

Branchminnow said:


> One more thing...if yall can show me in the scriptures (KJV ONLY) Proving that what you say is true, then I ll eat it. But it HAS to be MASON specific, NO SPECULATION whatsoever. no books from this guy or that guy, this religion or that religion. Scripture and only scripture will convince me. Anything else is not enough



OK, just for fun, prove "what" based on scriptures?  But the word "Mason" never appears in the Bible though.


----------



## FX Jenkins

Branchminnow said:


> One more thing...if yall can show me in the scriptures (KJV ONLY) Proving that what you say is true, then I ll eat it. But it HAS to be MASON specific, NO SPECULATION whatsoever. no books from this guy or that guy, this religion or that religion. Scripture and only scripture will convince me. Anything else is not enough



Would you like a pillow sir, to rest your head while you drink your double chocka extra no soy grande vanilla latte...


----------



## Branchminnow

dawg2 said:


> OK, just for fun, prove "what" based on scriptures?  But the word "Mason" never appears in the Bible though.



that masons are cult members, and that GOD has directly denounced them.


----------



## Branchminnow

FX Jenkins said:


> Would you like a pillow sir, to rest your head while you drink your double chocka extra no soy grande vanilla latte...



Yes please and while you are at it a light knitted throw to keep my feet warm as there is a chill in the damp air this morning.


----------



## THREEJAYS

Branchminnow said:


> Dont know about that lodge but it aint true in the one I used to frequent.



People will believe what they want to.Just because you read something that someone wrote (possibly w/ an ax to grind doesn't make it true) heck man can't even agree on God's Holy Word.There is and always will be talk about what is unknown.Thank goodness that God is the one that decides the matters of the heart.I also am not aware of the Father,Son,Holy Sprit being left out.


----------



## dawg2

Branchminnow said:


> that masons are cult members, and that GOD has directly denounced them.


Just to be clear I am not judging "Masons" or members.  JUst that my religion forbids it for some scriptural reasons.

I don't know if they are a "cult" didn't see anyone say that.  I don't know that GOD has directly denounced them either.  BUt let's bring scripture in, just for fun.  I do know the sermon on the mount by Jesus has some points to be heeded:

Secrecy:
Matthew 5:13-16 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 

 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.[/COLOR]

Oaths:
Matthew 5:33-37 (King James Version)
33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 

 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 

 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 

 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 

 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

And just out of curiosity.  So many talk of "Islam" being a false religion and violent.  But why is the Koran used / placed/ etc. on an altar, in a Lodge, beside the Bible?


----------



## dawg2

THREEJAYS said:


> ... heck man can't even agree on God's Holy Word......QUOTE]
> 
> That is so true.  Sad, but true.


----------



## FX Jenkins

OK sir, the bible doesn't speak by name against Charles Manson either but I'm pretty sure he was out of accordance with scripture...but per your request...Here is a topical comparison with refutations from KJV scripture...


_GOD

Offensive terms such as ‘Jah-Bul-On,’ the so-called secret name of God, are used. Masonic writer Albert Pike, in his Book of the Words, explained the first two syllables of the secret name in his discussion of the old French rituals: “This is probably Jabulum, incorrectly copied; which, as I have shown, meant ‘the product of, that which proceeded, issued or emanated from Om.’ If correctly written, it is compounded of . . . Yu or Yah-u . . . Baal or Bal or Bel, and Om, thus combining the names of the Hebrew, Phoenician and Hindu Deities, to indicate that they are in reality the same. In some old rituals it is Jabulum.” 1


Christianity rejects all pagan deities as false gods and goddesses. The idea that followers of Om or Baal worshiped the true God of the Bible but knew Him by a different name is false. No pagan deity is a representation of the God of the Bible. The differences between the God of the Bible and the pagan deities are far greater and significant than the name used to refer to God. No Christian should have any part in a ritual that honors or glorifies a pagan deity.


Exodus 20:4   Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

Psalms 81:9: There shall no strange god be in thee; neither shalt thou worship any strange god.

Isaiah 42:8 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.


OATHS

Rituals that contain excessive oaths are used. The obligation sworn by the Entered Apprentice: “All this I most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, . . . binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut from ear to ear, my tongue torn out by its roots, and buried in the sands of the sea, at low water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-five hours, should I, in the least, knowingly or wittingly violate or transgress this my Entered Apprentice obligation.”

The Fellow Craft degree candidate promises: “All this I most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, . . . binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my left breast torn open, my heart plucked from thence, and given to the beast of the field and the birds of the air as prey, should I, in the least, knowingly or wittingly, violate or transgress this my Fellow Craft obligations.”

The Master Mason swears: “All this I most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, . . . binding myself under no less penalty than that of having my body severed in two, my bowels torn from thence and burned to ashes, and these scattered before the four winds of heaven, that no more remembrance might be had among men or Masons of so vile a wretch as I should be, should I, in the least, knowingly or wittingly violate or transgress this my Master Mason obligation. So help me God and keep me steadfast.” 2

Some Masons claim that these oaths are not taken seriously by candidates today.


The Bible warns against making excessive oaths. Therefore, Christians should avoid the kind of oaths found in Freemasonry, which are far worse than the oaths warned against in the New Testament. Christians should let their “yes” be “yes” and their “no” mean “no.”

Christians should take all oaths seriously and not give any oaths rashly.


Leviticus 5:4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.

Matthew 5:34-37: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:

35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.

36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.

37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 

James 5:12: But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

JESUS CHRIST

Many of the recommended readings for advanced degrees contain pagan and occultic teachings. Several of these Masonic writers deny the uniqueness of Jesus Christ. For example, Rex Hutchens wrote: “The purpose of teaching the concept of a Messiah in Freemasonry is to point out its near universality in the well–developed religions of the ancient world. We see references to Dionysius of the Greeks, Sosiosch of the Persians, Krishna of the Hindus, Osiris of the Egyptians, Jesus of the Christians. The purpose of these varying cultures’ messiahs was to find in human form a source of intercession with Deity; in particular one who, as a human, had been tempted and suffered the daily pangs of life and so could be expected to possess a particular sympathy and understanding; in a word, the messiahs expressed hope.” 3

In addition, some of these writers confuse false pagan beliefs with the teaching of Christianity. For example, Albert Pike confused the Christian Trinity with the Hindu Universal Soul: “Behold the True Masonic Trinity; the Universal Soul, the Thought in the Soul, the Word, or Thought expressed; the Three In One, of a Trinitarian Ecossais.” 4

The comparison of Jesus to the pagan deities Dionysius, Sosiosch, and Osiris denigrates the deity of Jesus Christ. The words of Hebrews 2:18 apply to Jesus and Jesus alone. The Bible teaches that Jesus is unique. He is not just one messiah among many.

The Christian doctrine of the Trinity is the belief that there is only one God. Yet, the one God is three distinct Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. These three have distinct personal attributes, but without division of nature, essence, or being. The “Masonic Trinity” is a complete misrepresentation of the Christian belief. To compare the Triune God of Christianity with Hindu deities is blasphemous.



John 3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Acts 4:12 Being grieved that they taught the people, and preached through Jesus the resurrection from the dead.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost

Mark 1:9-11 
9  And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan.

10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:

11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Acts 1:7-8 
7  And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8  But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

SALVATION BY WORKS

Many writings of Freemasonry teach that salvation is at least partially dependent upon good works. In commenting on the Christian interpretation of the Blue degrees in Freemasonry, Pike wrote: “Notwithstanding the death of the Redeemer, man can be saved only by faith, repentance, and reformation. Having repented and reformed and bound himself to the service of God by a firm promise and obligation, the light of Christian hope shines down into the darkness of the heart of the humble penitent, and blazes upon his pathway to Heaven. And this is symbolized by the candidate’s being brought to light, after he is obligated, by the Worshipful Master, who in that is a symbol of the Redeemer, and so brings him the light, with the help of the brethren, as He taught the Word with the aid of the Apostles.” 5 Likewise, in concerning the 31st degree, Hutchens stated: “The candidate is brought into the Court of the Dead to be judged for actions while living and to determine if he deserves to dwell among the
gods.” 6

The teaching that meritorious deeds can make one acceptable to God is false. There is no deed that will make one acceptable to God. Only the grace of God that comes through faith in Jesus Christ can save a sinner from the judgment of sin. This saving grace of God is incompatible with any form of works as a requirement for salvation.

The teaching that salvation is in some way dependent upon good works gives people a false hope that they may be found to be acceptable to God apart from personal faith in Jesus Christ.


Romans 3:27-28
27  Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28  Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:4-5 
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

INCLUSIVISM

The teaching that followers of non-Christian religions will also go to heaven is prominent in Freemasonry. This belief is known as inclusivism. Inclusivism denies that faith in Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation.

Freemasonry holds out the promise of salvation to all worthy Masons, regardless of the deity they worship. The Muslim or Hindu member of the lodge is on the same spiritual level as the believer in Jesus Christ. According to Hutchens, “Masonry is tolerant, even supportive, of the most diversereligious beliefs.” 7

Pike likewise argued that no religion can claim to have exclusivity to the truth, nor can any religion claim to be superior to another. “Toleration,  olding that every other man has the same right to his opinion and faith that we have to ours; liberality, holding that as no human being can with certainty say, in the clash and conflict of hostile faiths and creeds, what is truth, or that he is surely in possession of it, so every one should feel that it is quite possible that another equally honest and sincere with himself, and yet holding the contrary opinion, may himself be in possession of the truth, and that whatever one firmly and conscientiously believes, is truth, to him.” 8

Personal faith in Jesus Christ is the only way of salvation. Jesus claimed to be “the way and the truth and the life” (John 14:6). He warned that no one “comes to the Father” except through Him (John 14:6). Those who through faith have a personal relationship with Jesus, have eternal life. Those who do not have faith in Jesus do not have eternal life.

John 3:36: He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

1 John 5:12  He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
_
This is a summary from http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLb...onry_and_Christianity__A_Comparison_Chart.htm

I'd further be interested in knowing how many masons align themselves with the Southern Baptist Convention, which historically refutes the practice...


----------



## Twenty five ought six

> So many talk of "Islam" being a false religion and violent. But why is the Koran used / placed/ etc. on an altar, in a Lodge, beside the Bible?



Because it's not the Masons that talk about Islam being a false religion and violent.  And there for sure isn't a Koran in every lodge.  In fact there is not even the same Bible in every Lodge.

Masons only require a belief in the Supreme Creator.  There are Jewish Masons and Christian Masons (including Catholic Masons), and Islam Masons, and probably somewhere some  Buddhist Masons.


----------



## leroy

Twenty five ought six said:


> Masons only require a belief in the Supreme Creator.  There are Jewish Masons and Christian Masons (including Catholic Masons), and Islam Masons, and probably somewhere some  Buddhist Masons.



One of the reasons I chose to abstain.


----------



## dawg2

Twenty five ought six said:


> ...(including Catholic Masons...



Never met one of those.


----------



## FX Jenkins

dawg2 said:


> Never met one of those.



Hes in Italy 

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=4581


----------



## Ulysses

There is no such thing as a Catholic Mason. Joining a Masonic lodge carries the penalty of excommunication under Canon Law. Therefore, anyone joining a lodge is technically no longer a Catholic until he quits the lodge, confesses his sin, and is readmitted into the Church.


----------



## dawg2

FX Jenkins said:


> Hes in Italy
> 
> http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=4581



Interesting.  I wonder if he was excommunicated...That was in 2005, I'll have to do some digging.


I wonder why John Quincy Adams said this:

Masonry ought forever to be abolished. It is wrong - essentially wrong - a seed of evil, which can never produce any good. 

President John Quincy Adams
Letters on the Masonic Institution


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

do any of you actually lay up brick?


----------



## FX Jenkins

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> do any of you actually lay up brick?



I dry stack field stone...


----------



## Ulysses

dawg2 said:


> Interesting.  I wonder if he was excommunicated...That was in 2005, I'll have to do some digging.



Whether a formal declaration was made or not, he became excommunicate latae sentiae, i.e., the penalty is automatic.

All I see in the story though is that some unnamed priest was invited to be chaplain of a lodge...not a whole lot of information there. It doesn't give a name or even say that he was actually a member.


----------



## Ulysses

FX Jenkins said:


> I dry stack field stone...



I've done the same with cinder blocks and retaining-wall blocks....does that count?


----------



## Spotlite

dawg2 said:


> So he sent you here!





Branchminnow said:


> Ole Jim is purdy slick aint he???



that will be enough from yall 2


----------



## dawg2

Spotlite said:


> that will be enough from yall 2


----------



## Twenty five ought six

> There is no such thing as a Catholic Mason.



O.K.

Here's an interesting article on Mozart (the music guy) who was a Mason and a Catholic.  I believe his music is still regularly played in Catholic churches.

http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006c/090106/090106i.php



> Masonic Lodge in Italy appoints Catholic priest as chaplain, claims "openness" to Catholic Church
> 
> Rome, Aug 8, 2005 / 12:00 am (CNA).- In an unusual show of “openness” to the Catholic Church, a Masonic lodge in Italy has announced the appointment of a Catholic priest as chaplain.  The news was announced during an address to members of the lodge by Grand Master Fabio Venzi of the Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons of Italy. During his address announcing the appointment of the priest, whom he did not identify by name, Venzi explained what he considers to be the relationship between freemasonry and the Catholic Church.  “If we examine the documents at our disposal and if we look at the contrasts of the presumed incompatibility of the Catholic Church with freemasonry, we might get the impression that we find ourselves in the presence of a comedy of errors,” he said.
> 
> “The documents of the Holy See,” he continued, “are often based on Masonic realities which we consider ‘irregular,’ and therefore not representative of true Masonic tradition.”  “The rituals that have been studied and are considered typical of Masonic thought are not known exactly, but this does not appear to be a question of little importance, since we know that rituals can vary from lodge to lodge.”
> 
> Likewise, Venzi stated that “the first chapter of the book Freemasonry, by Zbigniew Suchecki of the Pontifical Lateran University and published by the Liberia Editrice Vaticana, notes: ‘During the last century, the Grand Eastern Lodge of France and the Grand Eastern Lodge of Italy were among the most anti-clerical Masonic lodges in the world.’  We hope that in the future, these lodges, which historically have represented the Anglo-Saxon Masonic tradition, not be considered typical.”
> 
> On the other hand, Venzi continued, “When a small opening was conceded, this was not done with much intelligence or common sense.  I am referring to Canon 2335 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law.  Under this norm, there was a sanction for Catholics who were members of organizations that in fact machinantur contra Ecclesiam, that is, that ‘plotted against the Church’.”
> 
> Venzi noted that “we have always treated the Holy See with great respect, and we have even named a lodge after Pius II, Enea Silvio Piccolomini.  This is unique in the history of freemasonry.”
> 
> At the end of address, Venzi announced the appointment of a grand official “who will probably be a part not only of the history of Italian freemasonry, but also of the history of freemasonry in the world, and I don’t think I am wrong.  The grand official I am appointing is a priest of the Catholic Church.  Let me say it again, of the Catholic Church.”
> 
> With this appointment, Venzi claimed to be “making a gesture of openness.  Never before has a Masonic lodge made such a gesture towards the Catholic Church, distancing itself from other irregular Masonic lodges that, with their anti-clericalism, have caused much harm to the image of freemasonry in the world.”
> 
> “We have played our part and we hope the Church will lay the groundwork and have the patience to deal with the peculiarities and differences within the world of freemasonry,” Venzi said in conclusion
> 
> 
> Published by: lucas
> savannah, ga 14/10/2007 10:50 PM EST
> It's great to see a priest as a member of the craft! I am a Masonic "Papist" myself, and as far as I know I was the first Catholic chaplain of my lodge. Let's see the Knights of Columbus publish their(our) ritual online (peter t.o.p). I have found no contradiction between the Church and the Craft since becoming involved, and will soon be elected Master of my Lodge if the brethren see fit. I have also ascended through the various Rites of Freemasonry in the past few years, soon to be invested with the rank of Knight Commander of the Court of Honor(KCCH), so kudos to by father and brother in Italia! How pleasant it is for brethren to dwell in unity! Pax Vobiscum!


----------



## Branchminnow

dawg2 said:


> Just to be clear I am not judging "Masons" or members.  JUst that my religion forbids it for some scriptural reasons.
> 
> I don't know if they are a "cult" didn't see anyone say that.  I don't know that GOD has directly denounced them either.  BUt let's bring scripture in, just for fun.  I do know the sermon on the mount by Jesus has some points to be heeded:
> 
> Secrecy:
> Matthew 5:13-16 (King James Version)
> King James Version (KJV)
> 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
> 
> 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.[/COLOR]
> 
> Oaths:
> Matthew 5:33-37 (King James Version)
> 33Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
> 
> 34But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne:
> 
> 35Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
> 
> 36Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
> 
> 37But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
> 
> And just out of curiosity.  So many talk of "Islam" being a false religion and violent.  But why is the Koran used / placed/ etc. on an altar, in a Lodge, beside the Bible?



Alright I donr know how to seperate every question you have here with the post....so just bear with me.

on the first two scriptures.....thats salvation (being saved according to my belief, has nothing to do with hiding something in real life) God knows all things and I ve never hidden nor do I have the ability to hide anything from him.

and the others(scripture) regaurding swearing.....well I thinkthats swearing an oath to someone other than God, I never took an oath in the lodge that was to be taken over and above my God,or my family, its all up to the individual.

There has never been a koran in the lodge that i know of.Ive been in at least 30 lodges, including the grand lodge of GA


----------



## dawg2

Branchminnow said:


> Alright I donr know how to seperate every question you have here with the post....so just bear with me.
> 
> on the first two scriptures.....thats salvation (being saved according to my belief, has nothing to do with hiding something in real life) God knows all things and I ve never hidden nor do I have the ability to hide anything from him.
> 
> and the others(scripture) regaurding swearing.....well I thinkthats swearing an oath to someone other than God, I never took an oath in the lodge that was to be taken over and above my God,or my family, its all up to the individual.
> 
> There has never been a koran in the lodge that i know of.Ive been in at least 30 lodges, including the grand lodge of GA



Fair enough.


----------



## dawg2

Twenty five ought six said:


> O.K.
> 
> Here's an interesting article on Mozart (the music guy) who was a Mason and a Catholic.  I believe his music is still regularly played in Catholic churches.
> 
> http://ncronline.org/NCR_Online/archives2/2006c/090106/090106i.php



I guess something changed, based on your article:

“But at the same time it is necessary to understand that Freemasonry in the 18th century was a completely different thing from [that of] the 19th or 20th centuries. There was no problem to be a deeply convinced Catholic and a Mason at the same time, as is illustrated by the examples of many priests, abbots, etc. [who were Masons] in the late 18th century.”


----------



## Spotlite

I still like the little motorcycles.


----------



## dawg2

Spotlite said:


> I still like the little motorcycles.



I'm getting the corvette


----------



## dawg2

ANybody see the ads on the side of the screen in this thread???

Here is one:

Secrets of Freemasonry
Revealed by Royal Arch Master Mason Murdered By His Fellow Masons 
SecretsOfTheMasons


----------



## Branchminnow

Spotlite said:


> I still like the little motorcycles.



you should see the hiilbilly truck.......then you would not want a motorcycle anymore.


----------



## magnumrecovery

Look here guys. I didn't start this thread to start a war or some sort of battle of whose right or not. Your opinions of what freemasonry is is yours. And everyone here knows what opinions are like. I did not ask for anyones opinions on freemasons. I simply ask why some churches looked down on the masonic fraternity. Nothing more and nothing less. I did  not ask for anyone to "educate" me on how wrong or secretive they are. I know first hand and am very proud to be a mason and feel that I am very knowledgeable of the craft. I also am very grateful to be a christian.


Now if there any other questions concerning the "secrets, ways, practices or beliefs" of the fraternity that have not already been answered here I will be more than happy to answer them. I know what I can and cannot tell you and will give you a straight answer......


----------



## dawg2

magnumrecovery said:


> .... I know what I can and cannot tell you and will give you a straight answer......



Why would there be something you can not tell?  Just curious.


----------



## FX Jenkins

Magnumrecovery,
   Is your church a member of the Southern Baptist Convention..?


----------



## leroy

magnumrecovery said:


> . I simply ask why some churches looked down on the masonic fraternity. .....



And some reasons have been given.


----------



## magnumrecovery

dawg2 said:


> Why would there be something you can not tell?  Just curious.



Just as in any fraternity or club there are sercet modes of recognition. It is in the Boy Scouts, the Moose , the Elks, and even right down to treehouse clubs of your youth. 

But, if you are determined to find out fell fre to browse the web. Your curiousity will surely be satisfied. Wether what you find will be true or not cannot be guaranteed. But I will not tell you either way.


----------



## packrat

*Question From Rat*



Branchminnow said:


> Which question, rat? (I always wanted to call somebody that) I thought I answered all of them.



YOUR POST #46 MADE ME ASK THE QUESTION HIGHLIGHTED IN RED IN POST #78. SO THE FLOOR IS OPEN TO ANYONE TO ANSWER POST #78.
WAITING ON AN ANSWER FROM ANYONE PAST OR PRESENT MASON. AND BRANCH, YOU CAN CALL ME RAT ANYTIME.


----------



## Branchminnow

packrat said:


> YOUR POST #46 MADE ME ASK THE QUESTION HIGHLIGHTED IN RED IN POST #78.
> WAITING ON AN ANSWER FROM ANYONE PAST OR PRESENT MASON. AND BRANCH, YOU CAN CALL ME RAT ANYTIME.



Again I always prayed to the father the son and the Holy Ghost (spirit)




Rat!


----------



## Branchminnow

FX you aint my friend anymore................


----------



## dawg2

magnumrecovery said:


> But, if you are determined to find out fell fre to browse the web. Your curiousity will surely be satisfied. Wether what you find will be true or not cannot be guaranteed. But I will not tell you either way.



I have found the web rather unreliable, especially on the Masons.  It is all over the board.  Was hoping to find out from a Mason.  Seems the best place.


----------



## FX Jenkins

Branchminnow said:


> FX you aint my friend anymore................



ok....but can we still be brothers?


----------



## dawg2

Branchminnow said:


> FX you aint my friend anymore................


----------



## FX Jenkins

dawg2 said:


>



i know man....


----------



## Branchminnow

FX Jenkins said:


> ok....but can we still be brothers?



ok


----------



## jmharris23

The answer to magnumrecovery's question is like the answer to most others in this forum. It comes down to a matter of your personal interpretation of scripture, your culture, your personal background, and family history. 

For example, if your daddy and your daddy's daddy was a mason and they both went to church and lived a "normal" Christian life then you most likely will see nothing wrong with it, nor will you be looking to find anything wrong with it. 

Being a mason is like everything else we talk about in here, there is my side of the story, your side of the story, and the truth. As in the case of most of these debatable opinions we all THINK we KNOW whats right but only God truly knows. 

The great thing is that the bible says that " God knows the heart of man" 

Can you be a Christian and a mason. I imagine so. As mad as this might make someone, I would liken membership in a "secret" society like the masons to drinking. 

Is it wrong to have a drink? Nope. Do I like it? Yes! Do I do it? Nah. Why not? Because I'd rather abstain from something I enjoy rather than have someone stumble over my example. 

But just like drinking, if I see my Christian brother have a drink I personally think no less of him. 

If I have a Christian brother who chooses to be a mason, I think no less of him. 

If he's good with it, thinks that God is good with it, has a good conscience about it and can find no CLEAR biblical mandate against it, I'm not gonna try and change his mind


----------



## FX Jenkins

jmharris23 said:


> The answer to magnumrecovery's question is like the answer to most others in this forum. It comes down to a matter of your personal interpretation of scripture, your culture, your personal background, and family history.
> 
> For example, if your daddy and your daddy's daddy was a mason and they both went to church and lived a "normal" Christian life then you most likely will see nothing wrong with it, nor will you be looking to find anything wrong with it.
> 
> Being a mason is like everything else we talk about in here, there is my side of the story, your side of the story, and the truth. As in the case of most of these debatable opinions we all THINK we KNOW whats right but only God truly knows.
> 
> The great thing is that the bible says that " God knows the heart of man"



I will applaud your first 4 para-sentences...


----------



## jmharris23

FX Jenkins said:


> I will applaud your first 4 para-sentences...



They were kinda long weren't they?

You didn't like the rest of my long sentences(just messing with ya)


----------



## Spotlite

That little hillbilly truck sounds cool.


----------



## Spotlite

jmharris23 said:


> They were kinda long weren't they?
> 
> You didn't like the rest of my long sentences(just messing with ya)



He cant read chapters to well, 4 sentences and his brain gets warm.


----------



## Branchminnow

Spotlite said:


> He cant read chapters to well, 4 sentences and his brain gets warm.





You beat me to it!


----------



## Branchminnow

BTW good post JM


----------



## leroy

jmharris23 said:


> For example, if your daddy and your daddy's daddy was a mason and they both went to church and lived a "normal" Christian life then you most likely will see nothing wrong with it, nor will you be looking to find anything wrong with it.



I think this is true for alot of folks.


----------



## PWalls

*I hate a Mason*

Jar that is. Everytime I tried to drink sweet tea out of one at PoFolks, those threads would leak tea onto my shirt.





Seriously though, I would not join. But, that is my personal conviction based on information I have received and read. However, I also will not attempt to judge or condemn anyone who is a member. That is their personal choice.


----------



## leroy

PWalls said:


> Seriously though, I would not join. But, that is my personal conviction based on information I have received and read. However, I also will not attempt to judge or condemn anyone who is a member. That is their personal choice.



same here.


----------



## dawg2

PWalls said:


> Seriously though, I would not join. But, that is my personal conviction based on information I have received and read. However, I also will not attempt to judge or condemn anyone who is a member. That is their personal choice.



I agree with that


----------



## Mako22

ryano said:


> thats your opinion.............sure is funny how everyone I know that is a Mason is a Christian that goes to Church every time the doors are open.
> 
> other than that, I really dont know much about free masonry.



Masons are do gooders who are trying to work their way into heaven. Yes some play lip service to being a Christian but most are not. Better repent and believe before its time to burn. Oh by the way I know many Baptist church members who are in church every time the doors are open but probably are going to burn in the hot place one day.  Religion doesn't save you, repentence and faith in Christ does.


----------



## magnumrecovery

FX Jenkins said:


> Magnumrecovery,
> Is your church a member of the Southern Baptist Convention..?



yes


----------



## Branchminnow

carters93 said:


> Masons are do gooders who are trying to work their way into heaven. Yes some play lip service to being a Christian but most are not. Better repent and believe before its time to burn. Oh by the way I know many Baptist church members who are in church every time the doors are open but probably are going to burn in the hot place one day.  Religion doesn't save you, repentence and faith in Christ does.



This doesnt even deserve a response.


----------



## quackwacker

carters93 said:


> Masons are do gooders who are trying to work their way into heaven. Yes some play lip service to being a Christian but most are not. Better repent and believe before its time to burn. Oh by the way I know many Baptist church members who are in church every time the doors are open but probably are going to burn in the hot place one day.  Religion doesn't save you, repentence and faith in Christ does.



So your judging me for being a Mason. I believe God ask us not to Judge didnt he?  Being a Mason has nothing to do with my relationship with God.  Thats between me and God.  

It funny how people who dont really know about something allways think the worse.  

Im proud to be a Mason.  

If you have questions go find one and ask him to his face, not on the internet.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

> Masons are do gooders who are trying to work their way into heaven. Yes some play lip service to being a Christian but most are not.



That could possibly be the most ignorant statement I've ever seen on _any _ of these forums, and that takes in a lot of territory. 

I wish I could be as good a Christian as most of the Masons I have known and that does include my father, most of the men in his church, and both my grandfathers, one of whom was editor of the state Baptist paper for 20 years, and all four of my g-grandfathers, one of whom was a Baptist Home Missionary and Chaplain in the War of Northern Aggression.  You should hope that you could be as good a Christian as any one of these men.


----------



## Swamprat

I just find it humorous that so called Christians find it perfectly acceptable to trample on peoples Constitutional Rights because they do not think or act like them.

Since most of you are from the South I am sure that some of you had fathers or grandfathers that were probably associated with the KKK  when it was the "in" thing but were still upstanding church members and respected within the community. Is that or was that any better than being a Mason....

It is not my place to judge others for what they believe or not....God has that final decision. I just distance myself from others who may differ but I alone do not decide if they are right or wrong.


----------



## Mako22

Twenty five ought six said:


> That could possibly be the most ignorant statement I've ever seen on _any _ of these forums, and that takes in a lot of territory.
> 
> I wish I could be as good a Christian as most of the Masons I have known and that does include my father, most of the men in his church, and both my grandfathers, one of whom was editor of the state Baptist paper for 20 years, and all four of my g-grandfathers, one of whom was a Baptist Home Missionary and Chaplain in the War of Northern Aggression.  You should hope that you could be as good a Christian as any one of these men.




Proverbs 20:6
Most men will proclaim every one his own goodness: but a faithful man who can find?


----------



## dutchman

carters93 said:


> Masons are do gooders who are trying to work their way into heaven. Yes some play lip service to being a Christian but most are not. Better repent and believe before its time to burn. Oh by the way I know many Baptist church members who are in church every time the doors are open but probably are going to burn in the hot place one day.  Religion doesn't save you, repentence and faith in Christ does.



You, sir, paint with a mighty broad brush. Do you also lump all Christians into one category? How about all hunters? Fishermen? Politicians? Just curious.


----------



## No. GA. Mt. Man

Twenty five ought six said:


> That could possibly be the most ignorant statement I've ever seen on _any _ of these forums, and that takes in a lot of territory.
> 
> I wish I could be as good a Christian as most of the Masons I have known and that does include my father, most of the men in his church, and both my grandfathers, one of whom was editor of the state Baptist paper for 20 years, and all four of my g-grandfathers, one of whom was a Baptist Home Missionary and Chaplain in the War of Northern Aggression.  You should hope that you could be as good a Christian as any one of these men.



AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## PWalls

Swamprat said:


> I just distance myself



Since this thread is now on the steep downward slope I think I will now distance myself from it. Probably won't last much longer.


----------



## THREEJAYS

Branchminnow said:


> This doesnt even deserve a response.



My thoughts toooooooooooooo!


----------



## dawg2

PWalls said:


> Since this thread is now on the steep downward slope I think I will now distance myself from it. Probably won't last much longer.


Right behind you...stepping away...


----------



## dutchman

PWalls said:


> Since this thread is now on the steep downward slope I think I will now distance myself from it. Probably won't last much longer.



With any luck at all...


----------



## Spotlite

TTT, still want that little motorcycle


----------



## FX Jenkins

magnumrecovery said:


> yes



Then you might be interested in knowing that the offering you give goes to support the North American Mission Board which publishes the following views on the subject...

http://www.4truth.net/site/c.hiKXLbPNLrF/b.2904369/k.A8AF/Freemasonry.htm


which also answers your original question of why some churches don't advocate freemasonry, and this is my most honest  and respectful, final answer...

Mathew 5:14-16

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


----------



## Branchminnow

FX Jenkins said:


> Mathew 5:14-16
> 
> 14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 “Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.



My light was lit when I was saved, to me this has not got anything to with the flesh. This scipture has a spiritual discernation, as well.


----------



## FX Jenkins

My understanding is that, figuratively speaking, Salvation is the light switch..

Psalm 27
1  The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

Psalm 119
105  
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.

And we are to let His light shine through us by obeying Gods word

Mathew 5:14 and 

Psalm 119:130
The entrance of thy words giveth light; it giveth understanding unto the simple.

Proverbs 6:23
For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

And when Gods word is revealed, folly and darkness have no place in our lives

Ecclesiastes 2:13
Then I saw that wisdom excelleth folly, as far as light excelleth darkness.

in such that we may, iaw Mathew 5:16, our Father is glorified by our good works, not a secretive fraternal organization...


----------



## Branchminnow

Without salvation the light aint lit.


----------



## leroy

ryano said:


> thats your opinion.............sure is funny how everyone I know that is a Mason is a Christian that goes to Church every time the doors are open.
> .



Of the masons I know there are some in the above catorgory. But as many or probably more are not in Church every times the doors open and sadly are more active in the lodge than the Church. But thats their decision and they will be the one that  has to answer for it if they have done wrong. To me freemasonory is sort of like the alcohol thread if you want to do it thats your business but dont be surprised or get riled when other Christians dont agree with it.


----------



## dutchman

leroy said:


> To me freemasonory is sort of like the alcohol thread if you want to do it thats your business but dont be surprised or get riled when other Christians dont agree with it.



Leroy, this comment is not aimed at you, so please don't take offense.

If being a Mason is the only thing that I ever do that my fellow Christians don't agree with, I'll be one up in the game. I've got way more faults than just that one. Stick around. All y'all are likely to see one or two more on here.


----------



## leroy

dutchman said:


> Leroy, this comment is not aimed at you, so please don't take offense.
> 
> If being a Mason is the only thing that I ever do that my fellow Christians don't agree with, I'll be one up in the game. I've got way more faults than just that one. Stick around. All y'all are likely to see one or two more on here.



same here.  I can say you have always been honest and straight foward with me on this subject and thank you for it. But others want to know why some disagree with certain things and then get riled when they are told


----------



## dawg2

leroy said:


> same here.  I can say you have always been honest and straight foward with me on this subject and thank you for it. But others want to know why some disagree with certain things and then get riled when they are told



Just curious, why did you not join the Masons?


----------



## leroy

dawg2 said:


> Just curious, why did you not join the Masons?



as I have said I truthfully came under conviction. I could not get past the title of the leader in the lodge "worshipful master" and the question on the application "do you believe in a supreme being" had to many answers. other smaller things but these were the two main points.


----------



## Branchminnow

leroy said:


> Of the masons I know there are some in the above catorgory. But as many or probably more are not in Church every times the doors open and sadly are more active in the lodge than the Church.  .



 I agree and it is sad.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

> If being a Mason is the only thing that I ever do that my fellow Christians don't agree with, I'll be one up in the game.



I'm with you there.  If you can stand before God, and the worst thing he can find written in the Book of Life is that you were a  Mason, you'll be away ahead of the rest of the churchgoers.


----------



## gunsbillygun

hummmm, ok let me get this out .
i William Cummings, thats me folks...
belive in God,
do belive with all my heart, i know , i know, i know. that Jesus is MY LORD and SAVIOR
i know i am saved by the Grace of God through his son Jesus Christ.

and get this.... now this is funny,

i'm a Mason.


----------



## gunsbillygun

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Jesus does preach against "swearing yourself to any oaths" during the sermon on the mount.
> 
> If I had to guess I would say that a lot of people who are Masons either don't truly know some of the history (as far as the one world religion thing) or that those particular historical issues are not really preached and/or followed by Masons nowadays.  but that's just a guess...



would that be like the one i did when i joined the army, or got married, or maybe like the president does when he goes into office or even a doctor?


----------



## Doc_Holliday23

gunsbillygun said:


> would that be like the one i did when i joined the army, or got married, or maybe like the president does when he goes into office or even a doctor?



well did you swear, in any of those oaths, not to divulge any secrets, penalty of which would be having your tongue or your heart ripped out?


----------



## gunsbillygun

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> well did you swear, in any of those oaths, not to divulge any secrets, penalty of which would be having your tongue or your heart ripped out?



you know when i got married.......


----------



## soopadoopa

.........


----------



## soopadoopa

deleted- I don't want to get in this.


----------



## gunsbillygun

all i can say is dont belive everything you hear, or see on tv, or read in some book, i have been a Mason for a couple of years and do not regreat any of it, nothing that i have done or seen goes agenst my  love of God, Jesus, the Holy Ghost., 
as far as it beeing a cult, no, way off.
there is only ONE book on the alter and that is the King James version of the Holy Bible, as matter of fact when i became a master mason they gave me one, it is the same word for word as all the other kjv Bibles i have, nothing diffrent.
we do not talk religion or politics in the lodge, if you want to keep peace in any fraternity  those are two things you dont talk about, 
if you get a babtist and a holyness together they ant going to agree on everything, just like a rep. and a dem. , so no , a cult ant it. we just try and help people in the community, there is no secrete. if somebody told you how we hold a meeting , its the same as every other org. in the world , but we do it in a way that no one feels left out or unimportant, if you were the president of what ever and someone else is a hourly employe. they are both treated the same . every body is a brother, not a big wig. we are all equil in a lodge,  there is no cult. just people wanting to help others.


----------



## JohnK3

Several times, I have written responses then deleted them before sending.

The anti-Masons may believe what they want.  Since they seem to be able to find sin where there is none and shadows in the light of day, I doubt very seriously that I'd be able to illuminate their thoughts about Masonry.  Instead, I'll just let them live their lives as they see fit, as long as they let me live mine as I see fit.

If you *really* want to know, and not just asking when you think you already know the answer, then ask a Mason for a petition.  If you're just trying to score points in some theological debate, I'll pass.


----------



## jmharris23

I was hoping this thread had died


----------



## Rich Kaminski

*I am not an expert on religion*

The second post on this thread makes a general statement that all Christians believe that the only way to heaven (the father) is through Jesus and goes on to quote a passage from the Bible. Baptists believe this. Nothing wrong with being a Baptist, just that the belief doesn't hold true for all Christian believers.

Catholics are the original Christians and therefore the truest and most accurate of the Christian faiths. Sorry to let everyone in on this (its not a secret), but all the other branches of Christianity were started by individuals with very large egos, who wanted to hold higher positions in the church than they could ever aspire to based on the rules at the time.
Now having gone to a Catholic Jesuit College and being taught Theology by priests should allow me to shed some light on the original topic of this discussion. Masons incompatibility with Christianity.
One Theology priest taught that everyone belives in God and stated that God is what you as an individual hold in the highest esteem; be it money, a supreme being, an individual, you fill in the blank... And this is from the Catholic Church (go figure).
End-of-story.


----------



## Ruger#3

*Note to self...*

 Do not hunt with Rich, when he gets excited he lets go with both barrells. 

Now back to your regularly scheduled devisive conversation ,as usual, in the name of religion.


----------



## dawg2

Ruger#3 said:


> Do not hunt with Rich, when he gets excited he lets go with both barrells.
> 
> Now back to your regularly scheduled devisive conversation ,as usual, in the name of religion.



I thought we were tallking about Masons?


----------



## Spotlite

jmharris23 said:


> I was hoping this thread had died


----------



## ultramag

carters93 said:


> Masons are do gooders who are trying to work their way into heaven. Yes some play lip service to being a Christian but most are not. Better repent and believe before its time to burn. Oh by the way I know many Baptist church members who are in church every time the doors are open but probably are going to burn in the hot place one day.  Religion doesn't save you, repentence and faith in Christ does.



I was raised as a master mason November 14 1998. I am 

proud to be a mason..and you do not have a clue what you

are talking about..My Grandfather was a mason and a 

southern baptist preacher..He preached the gospel...My 

uncle just passed away and he pastored Glen Haven 

Baptist church for over 30 years..I know that both of them

are in heaven..I am saved and i am going to heaven too..

you should not judge other people..Like i said i am proud to

be a mason!!!!!


----------



## Branchminnow

Rich Kaminski said:


> The second post on this thread makes a general statement that all Christians believe that the only way to heaven (the father) is through Jesus and goes on to quote a passage from the Bible. Baptists believe this. Nothing wrong with being a Baptist, just that the belief doesn't hold true for all Christian believers.
> 
> Catholics are the original Christians and therefore the truest and most accurate of the Christian faiths. Sorry to let everyone in on this (its not a secret), but all the other branches of Christianity were started by individuals with very large egos, who wanted to hold higher positions in the church than they could ever aspire to based on the rules at the time.
> Now having gone to a Catholic Jesuit College and being taught Theology by priests should allow me to shed some light on the original topic of this discussion. Masons incompatibility with Christianity.
> One Theology priest taught that everyone belives in God and stated that God is what you as an individual hold in the highest esteem; be it money, a supreme being, an individual, you fill in the blank... And this is from the Catholic Church (go figure).
> End-of-story.




Sorry my friend....thats just funny.....as ...well as spiteful.

One more thing I have several catholic friends here on this board and in every day life.........in all the discussions that I have had none of them have ever been this spitful or ugly  in a response or post.........heck you sound like a baptist.you sure you have not converted?


----------



## firefighterusa

*proud to be a mason*

i have been a mason for almost 15 years and the only thing i regret is not joining sooner. its amazing how people are and always will be afraid of the unknown.
coosawattee #306 PM


----------



## Lowjack

Just One Question, How many of the Members of the Trilateral Commission are masons ?


----------



## JerkBait

Rich Kaminski said:


> The second post on this thread makes a general statement that all Christians believe that the only way to heaven (the father) is through Jesus and goes on to quote a passage from the Bible.



there isnt any other way to the father but through jesus.


----------



## firefighterusa

*did you know ?*

http://www.calodges.org/no406/FAMASONS.HTM



The membership of Freemasonry, by and large, is made up of average men. Its ranks include laborers, clerks, merchants, tradesmen, lawyers, enlisted and commissioned members of the armed forces, doctors, statesmen, farmers, salesmen...the whole spectrum.  

In all ages, though, its ranks have included the great and the near great, including a sizeable number of Presidents of the United States, as follows:  

George Washington: The only President to serve as Master of his lodge during his incumbency, Washington laid the cornerstone of the United States Capitol, acting as Grand Master pro tem for the Grand Lodge of Maryland. He was buried with Masonic honors. Masons of the United States have erected a granite monument in his memory on Shooter's Hill, at Alexandria, Va.  

James Monroe: Except for records of his membership, little is known of Monroe's Masonic life.  

Andrew Jackson: Grand Master of the Grand Lodge of Tennessee, Jackson was the first of two Presidents to have so served Freemasonry.  

James K. Polk: Known to have served as Junior Warden of his lodge, there is no record of Polk ever serving as Master. During his Presidency he assisted in laying the cornerstone of the Smithsonian Institution with Masonic ceremonies.  

James Buchanan: Master of his lodge in 1823, Buchanan also served as a District Deputy Grand Master in Pennsylvania. He delivered the address at the Masonic dedication of the statue of Washington, Washington Circle, Washington, D.C. He was buried with Masonic honors.  

Andrew Johnson: During his Presidency Johnson participated in five Masonic cornerstone ceremonies... in Chicago, Baltimore, Boston, Antietam (Md.) and Washington. He was buried with Masonic honors.  

James A. Garfield: Eventually holding membership in three different lodges (Masons may move membership from one lodge to another or, in some states, become dual or plural members), Garfield was Chaplain in the second of these. Many Masonic groups attended his funeral.  

William Mckinley: Our 25th President was prompted to seek Masonic membership when he observed the fraternal kindnesses being exchanged among Masons in the Union and Confederate Armies during the Civil War.  

Theodore Roosevelt: Often expressing his interest in Freemasonry, Roosevelt visited lodges at home and abroad. He participated in Masonic ceremonies on several occasions while President, delivering the principal address on one occasion and wearing Masonic regalia on another.  

William H. Taft: Taft was another of the Presidents that took part in various Masonic activities while in office. On one occasion he posed for a picture while wearing Washington's Masonic regalia at the White House.  

Warren G. Harding: Becoming a Mason only three years before his death, Harding nevertheless became very active Ma sonically and joined a number of the appendant orders.  

Franklin D. Roosevelt: A Mason for thirty-four years, Roosevelt participated in numerous Masonic activities, including "raising" his son Elliott as a Master Mason in 1933.  

Harry S. Truman: Becoming a Mason in 1909, Truman was the second President to have served as a Grand Master, being elected Grand Master of Missouri in 1940. He was probably the most active Mason of any President since Washington. Millions of Americans witnessed his Masonic funeral service on national television  

Gerald R. Ford: Still living at this writing, it is perhaps too early to summarize Ford's Masonic life. In addition to the Presidents listed, it is widely believed that Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were Masons, but documentation of their Masonic memberships has never been discovered. Lyndon B. Johnson received the first degree and was thus an Entered Appentice, but he never became a Master Mason.  

The foregoing summarizations have been very brief and do not even include the memberships and activities of some of the Presidents in appendant orders. Truman and Ford, for example, were each honored by the Scottish Rite when they were elected to its Thirty-Third Degree.  

There have been many other famous Americans that were Masons, and these have included Benjamin Franklin, David Bushnell, George Walton, Haym Salomon, John Hancock, Joseph Hewes, John Marshall, Paul Revere, Red Skelton, Douglas MacArthur, and many, many more. Numerous Masons are members of the United States Senate and Congress, while others hold important commands in the armed forces. Several state governors are Masons.  

LaFayette, Robert Burns, Goethe, and Rudyard Kipling were among famous Masons abroad. Masonic ranks in Europe have for several centuries included members of royal families.


----------



## Twenty five ought six

> LaFayette, Robert Burns, Goethe, and Rudyard Kipling were among famous Masons abroad.



Amadeus Mozart is among the most famous of the Catholic Masons.  

He composed many pieces of Masonic music, including pieces specifically named for the Masons, "Masonic Joy" and "Masonic Funeral Music".

The Magic Flute is a retelling of Masonic themes and rituals.


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## firefighterusa

*quote from a good man my father*

becoming a mason doesnt make you a good man , it makes you a better man.


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## No. GA. Mt. Man

My brother in law is a Mason and he constantly talks about taking over the world.


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## Vernon Holt

Rich Kaminski said:


> "*I am not an expert on religion*"


 

I couldn't agree with you more. I have always heard that confession is good for the soul, and truly it is.


----------



## yellowhammer

A recently deceased friend of mine was a Christian minister and a mason.He reached a point in freemasonry where he saw or learned something that made him leave the group.I think this is called a demit?He kept the reason for leaving to himself and would only say that he learned something about the masons that caused him to leave.Something not Godly.I,too,would not refer to another human as "worshipful master".I do have friends and family who are masons.It`s their choice.They`re still my brothers.


----------



## Lowjack

If One has Christ ,why be part of a secretive society ?

God is Light there is no darkness or secrets before him.


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## firefighterusa

yellowhammer said:


> A recently deceased friend of mine was a Christian minister and a mason.He reached a point in freemasonry where he saw or learned something that made him leave the group.I think this is called a demit?He kept the reason for leaving to himself and would only say that he learned something about the masons that caused him to leave.Something not Godly.I,too,would not refer to another human as "worshipful master".I do have friends and family who are masons.It`s their choice.They`re still my brothers.



and we sprout wings and ride around on goats at midnight. this is starting to get funny.


----------



## jmharris23

firefighterusa said:


> and we sprout wings and ride around on goats at midnight. this is starting to get funny.



That sounds like fun, where do I join?


----------



## Branchminnow

Vernon Holt said:


> I couldn't agree with you more. I have always heard that confession is good for the soul, and truly it is.





I cannot tell you how funny that is right now.


----------



## PJason

yellowhammer said:


> A recently deceased friend of mine was a Christian minister and a mason.He reached a point in freemasonry where he saw or learned something that made him leave the group.I think this is called a demit?He kept the reason for leaving to himself and would only say that he learned something about the masons that caused him to leave.Something not Godly.I,too,would not refer to another human as "worshipful master".I do have friends and family who are masons.It`s their choice.They`re still my brothers.





firefighterusa said:


> and we sprout wings and ride around on goats at midnight. this is starting to get funny.



 We wouldn't make jokes about a dead firefighter or a dead mason show a little respect.


----------



## FX Jenkins

firefighterusa said:


> and we sprout wings and ride around on goats at midnight. this is starting to get funny.



bareback or with a saddle..?


----------



## firefighterusa

first of all i wasnt making fun of anybody. the part i was refering to was"somthing ungodly"  so dont start assuming things . from now own i will try to consider your sensitive side.


----------



## dawg2

FX Jenkins said:


> bareback or with a saddle..?



I thought he was kidding about the wings


----------



## FX Jenkins

dawg2 said:


> I thought he was kidding about the wings



I think we've been intentionally mislead ...looks like goats with wings actually ride on the backs of men..


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## firefighterusa

*this may help some of you.*

http://www.masonicinfo.com/
http://www.masonicinfo.com/faq.htm


----------



## leroy

"The term "Great Architect of the Universe" (or "Grand Architect of the Universe") is used to permit a more generic worship to the Supreme Being of all present. All Masons understand this concept and when prayers are offered in their lodge, they understand that regardless of the person speaking the words or the manner of prayer of others present, the prayer is addressed to their Supreme Being".







So they could pray in Jesus name or they could pray in allah's name or whatever they consider there "supreme being". Sorry to make me a better man I'll stick with Jesus exclusively and my Church. And I see nothing funny about a man coming under conviction for his part in freemasonory and seperating himself from it.


----------



## firefighterusa

a quoate from http://www.masonicinfo.com/


 Freemasonry is neither a religion nor does it take a position vis-à-vis ANY religion. A member's religious beliefs are his own and while some detractors would want Masonry to mold itself into their interpretation of 'truth'  - or see the organization as a threat - the fact remains that Freemasonry is a fraternity of like-minded men dedicated to the ideals of brotherly love, relief and truth.


----------



## firefighterusa

Religious Intolerants

Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it. 
King James Bible. Psalms 34:13-14.

By far, the most vocal opposition to Freemasonry comes from those who believe that they do so in support of their religious beliefs. We've dubbed them 'religious intolerants' because they simply cannot tolerate faith (or other) beliefs that might differ from their own. Although they wrap this in the mantle of "following <whomever/whatever>", in reality it is simply bigotry and hatred.

Freemasonry is an anathema to the person who is intolerant of another person's faith. Freemasonry accepts as members persons who claim to profess a belief in a Supreme Being and Freemasonry mandates no specific prayers or form of prayer nor does it require any set of faith-based beliefs beyond that simple statement that the applicant believes in a Supreme Being.

Virtually all of the arguments from these 'religious intolerants' come from those who adhere to a "fundamentalist" view of their religion. Whether they are Baptist, Catholic, Muslim or some other faith, their views are rigid and inflexible. They consider no thoughts or arguments which might sway their preconceived notions. Believing themselves to be Divinely inspired, they broach no dissent - and will argue with vehemence that they've been led by God (or Jesus, as is often the case) to condemn Freemasonry. 

Many of the 'religious intolerants' who object to Freemasonry on religious grounds seem to share common traits: 
Have had a "born-again" experience which brought them to their current belief in Deity;
Believe in the literal interpretation and the absolute inerrancy of the Bible;
Do not have formal training in ANY field, much less the relevant ones of theology or classic literature;
	Are not congregants of 'traditional' religious streams;
	Have had 'disputes' with local religious leaders causing them to 'leave in a huff' to be with others whom they perceive as more ideologically 'pure'.

In addition, it appears that the vast majority have no post-high school education and have worked at marginal and/or non-executive jobs. They seem to have limited their reading to religious texts in agreement with their world view, immediately rejecting without consideration the ideas of those with whom they disagree.

These things in and of themselves are not uniquely problematic. There are, of course, many men and women of good-will (and with a high impression of Freemasonry) who share some of those traits. However, in addition, there are these more unsettling commonalities. They
	Do not belong to a 'mainstream' religious group;
Are unwilling to publicly identify their church affiliation;
Became aware of 'the evils of Freemasonry' through some type of "ministry" which is also against a number of other groups as well (even though their objections might appear to be solely against Freemasonry);
	Rely on what others have said/written rather than objectively looking at facts;
	Are loathe to acknowledge that what they've understood might be wrong in the arguments against Freemasonry;
Are close followers of a charismatic leader - or totally refuse to accept the religious leadership of another person arguing that each person is a "preacher" in accordance (in their mind) with the Bible;
Have limited (if any) training in areas such as the Bible, church history, philosophy, or logic (but may consider what they've read in anti-Masonic books or tracts, found on the internet, or heard from a self-labeled "preacher" - or even a proven liar - as sufficient 'proof');
Are intolerant of other's religious beliefs and ideals, wishing to remain safe and secure in the knowledge that they have the 'ultimate answers';
Have a "spiritual advisor" and demand others identify the person whom that they have for this purpose in order to somehow 'vet' the religious beliefs held; and
	Often loudly and vigorously differ with others over religious theories and interpretations.

Another common - although not universal - trait amongst this small group is a hatred of those of the Jewish faith and of people of color.

Many of the arguments against Freemasonry arise from the perceived (and argued to be God-inspired) need by this 'religious intolerant' to "witness" at all times and in all places. Finding Freemasons allows one such opportunity - and particularly in the electronic world where anonymity and a potentially wide audience exists. They see it as a wonderful way to serve their religion.

Religious intolerants do their religion and themselves a disservice, though, by 'turning off' those who are willing to listen to provable evidence.


----------



## PWalls

firefighterusa said:


> Religious Intolerants
> 
> Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
> Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
> King James Bible. Psalms 34:13-14.
> 
> By far, the most vocal opposition to Freemasonry comes from those who believe that they do so in support of their religious beliefs. We've dubbed them 'religious intolerants' because they simply cannot tolerate faith (or other) beliefs that might differ from their own. Although they wrap this in the mantle of "following <whomever/whatever>", in reality it is simply bigotry and hatred.
> 
> Freemasonry is an anathema to the person who is intolerant of another person's faith. Freemasonry accepts as members persons who claim to profess a belief in a Supreme Being and Freemasonry mandates no specific prayers or form of prayer nor does it require any set of faith-based beliefs beyond that simple statement that the applicant believes in a Supreme Being.
> 
> Virtually all of the arguments from these 'religious intolerants' come from those who adhere to a "fundamentalist" view of their religion. Whether they are Baptist, Catholic, Muslim or some other faith, their views are rigid and inflexible. They consider no thoughts or arguments which might sway their preconceived notions. Believing themselves to be Divinely inspired, they broach no dissent - and will argue with vehemence that they've been led by God (or Jesus, as is often the case) to condemn Freemasonry.
> 
> Many of the 'religious intolerants' who object to Freemasonry on religious grounds seem to share common traits:
> Have had a "born-again" experience which brought them to their current belief in Deity;
> Believe in the literal interpretation and the absolute inerrancy of the Bible;
> Do not have formal training in ANY field, much less the relevant ones of theology or classic literature;
> Are not congregants of 'traditional' religious streams;
> Have had 'disputes' with local religious leaders causing them to 'leave in a huff' to be with others whom they perceive as more ideologically 'pure'.
> 
> In addition, it appears that the vast majority have no post-high school education and have worked at marginal and/or non-executive jobs. They seem to have limited their reading to religious texts in agreement with their world view, immediately rejecting without consideration the ideas of those with whom they disagree.
> 
> These things in and of themselves are not uniquely problematic. There are, of course, many men and women of good-will (and with a high impression of Freemasonry) who share some of those traits. However, in addition, there are these more unsettling commonalities. They
> Do not belong to a 'mainstream' religious group;
> Are unwilling to publicly identify their church affiliation;
> Became aware of 'the evils of Freemasonry' through some type of "ministry" which is also against a number of other groups as well (even though their objections might appear to be solely against Freemasonry);
> Rely on what others have said/written rather than objectively looking at facts;
> Are loathe to acknowledge that what they've understood might be wrong in the arguments against Freemasonry;
> Are close followers of a charismatic leader - or totally refuse to accept the religious leadership of another person arguing that each person is a "preacher" in accordance (in their mind) with the Bible;
> Have limited (if any) training in areas such as the Bible, church history, philosophy, or logic (but may consider what they've read in anti-Masonic books or tracts, found on the internet, or heard from a self-labeled "preacher" - or even a proven liar - as sufficient 'proof');
> Are intolerant of other's religious beliefs and ideals, wishing to remain safe and secure in the knowledge that they have the 'ultimate answers';
> Have a "spiritual advisor" and demand others identify the person whom that they have for this purpose in order to somehow 'vet' the religious beliefs held; and
> Often loudly and vigorously differ with others over religious theories and interpretations.
> 
> Another common - although not universal - trait amongst this small group is a hatred of those of the Jewish faith and of people of color.
> 
> Many of the arguments against Freemasonry arise from the perceived (and argued to be God-inspired) need by this 'religious intolerant' to "witness" at all times and in all places. Finding Freemasons allows one such opportunity - and particularly in the electronic world where anonymity and a potentially wide audience exists. They see it as a wonderful way to serve their religion.
> 
> Religious intolerants do their religion and themselves a disservice, though, by 'turning off' those who are willing to listen to provable evidence.





Thanks. Hadn't had a laugh in a while and I needed one.


----------



## firefighterusa

Is Freemasonry a Religion?
By: John J. Robinson


Bro. John J. Robinson's last book was A Pilgrim's Path. In this book Bro. Robinson responds to numerous religious criticisms of Freemasonry as well as writing about the "Evangelist Mentality." We are printing several Short Talk Bulletins as a series to help our readers have a response to some of the misleading, inaccurate, and oftentimes untrue statements made by the religious extremists against Freemasonry! (The title Is Freemasonry A Religion? is from a chapter title in the book.) A Pilgrim's Path, by John J. Robinson, was published in 1993 by M. Evans & Co., Inc. in New York City. The book is available in many bookstores or can be ordered through your local bookstore using ISBN 0-87131-732-X. -Editor



     I've lost count of how many times I have been asked, "Isn't Freemasonry a separate religion?" It's a question that creates a question: "How in the world did anyone come to believe that Masonry is a religion?" When I ask that, I am usually told by the callers that they heard the charge on an evangelist's broadcast, or read it in an anti-Masonic tract or book.  No one who has asked me the question has claimed to have come up with the notion from personal knowledge or experience.

     The basic question has been addressed over and over again: "No, Masonry is not a religion. It has no intention of being a religion. It doesn't want to be a religion." But those replies rarely have any impact on non-Masons for the simple reason that the defense of Masonry is usually directed at other Masons, not at the masses who are the targets of the anti-Masonic evangelists. What is obviously needed is a broader audience for the defense.

     One point that is confusing to many is the frequent statement by Masonic writers that Freemasons are "religious." They are, but being religious in no way carries with it the concept of being part of a separate religion.  My own parents were very religious, but I really don't believe that they were a separate religion. Any minister of the gospel will agree that he is religious, but every one will deny that he considers his teachings to be those of a separate religion.

     Usually, the allegation that Masonry is a separate religion is helped along by one or more blatant falsehoods-for example, the charge that Masonry has its own path to salvation, through the performance of good works. I never met a Mason who believed that, or who would be able to understand how anyone could ever draw such a conclusion. In practice, it is a handy point for anti-Masons, who are frequently confronted with, "But if the Masons are such evil people, how do you explain their free hospitals, their language-disorder clinics for children, their eye-care program, their homes for the elderly, and all those other Masonic charities?"

     The anti-Masonic answer comes back as, "The Masonic charities are not beloved of God because the Masons teach that good works are the way to salvation. That makes those charities against the will of God." That's sick, but it's what some of them say.

     Masonry leaves it up to the individual Mason to choose his pathway to God, and that policy naturally includes no rules, advice, or admonitions as to the means of salvation. The Mason is expected, quite properly, to get that spiritual guidance from his own denomination, which he is encouraged to support with both his energy and his personal finances.

    Time after time in various lectures, the Freemason is told never to put his duties and responsibilities to the Masonic fraternity ahead of his duties and responsibilities to his church, to his country, and to his family. As for Masonic charities, whether they are organized major efforts or individual acts of kindness (such as aid to a destitute brother, or to his widow and their children), the Mason is told to make no gift that will affect his duty to care for his own family.   In the ceremonies and lectures that lead to a man being raised to the status of Master Mason, he hears no description of heaven or Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. He hears no religious dogma. He hears no mention of Satan. He is told of no Masonic pathway to salvation for the simple reason that there is none.

    The only religious item in the Masonic lodge is the holy book of the initiate's own faith.  Since most Masons are Protestant Christians, that book is usually the King James version of the Bible. The initiate may be given a Masonic Bible by his lodge, his friends, or his family, but it varies from other editions of actual Scripture by not one single word. It is only a "Masonic" Bible because it also contains a brief history of Masonry, or a concordance to relate certain Masonic ritual to scriptural passages. Masons who are not Protestants* bring their own holy books for their initiations.

     Let's start at the beginning: When a man decides to become a Mason, based on what he has seen, heard, or experienced, he files an application, or "petition," with a local Masonic lodge. In signing that petition he asserts that he believes in God, the Supreme Being, and in the immortality of the soul. In the lecture accompanying the initiation rites of the first degree, called Entered Apprentice, he is told that how he chooses to worship God is up to his own conscience.

     The religious experience in the lodge is prayer. Every meeting of Masons opens and closes with prayer. Every meal begins with prayer. As is done so often by the federal government (as, for example, with "In God we trust"), all prayer is addressed (or should be) to God the Father, so that a mixed audience of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, for instance, can relate that prayer to their own worship.  Masons also offer prayers for charitable endeavors, for bereaved Masons and their families, or for a departed brother.

     Clearly, one can easily assert that Freemasonry is not a separate religion. It promotes no heaven, no Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, and no means of salvation. There's no "witnessing" or arguing over religious beliefs in the lodge. There is no religious dogma. It can't be a religion.

     Nevertheless, it is frequently charged that the Masonic lodge has its own God, whose name is "The Great Architect of the Universe." That Masonic term is not a name; it is a designation or reference, as are all terms beginning with the word "The": The Almighty, The Creator, The Most High. If it starts with "The," it is not a name. So why do the Masons use that designation?

     Masonry, as its name implies, centers symbolically around the ancient builders of temples and cathedrals. It is natural for groups to fashion a designation for God that relates to their interests. In the military, I attended an outdoor church service conducted by a visiting chaplain, an ordained minister. He referred to God as "Our Supreme Commander-in-Chief in heaven." The Masons often do refer to God as The Great Architect of the Universe, but what's wrong with that? The architect is one who plans and brings a structure into being. Historians refer to the Founding Fathers as the "architects of the Constitution." As a designation for God, The Great Architect of the Universe makes sense, and it means precisely the same thing as the universally popular "The Creator." The slight difference is that the Masonic designation implies that God created the world according to a plan, although there is no Masonic description of what that plan may be.

*Judeo/Christians use the Holy Bible.  Other faiths may use their Holy Book.


FREEMASONRY AND RELIGION

Basic Principles. Freemasonry is not a religion, nor is it a substitute for religion. It requires of its members belief in God as part of the obligation of every responsible adult, but advocates no sectarian faith or practice. Masonic ceremonies include prayers, both traditional and extempore, to reaffirm each individual's dependence on God and to seek divine guidance.  Freemasonry is open to men of any faith, but religion may not be discussed at Masonic meetings.

The Supreme Being. Masons believe that there is one God and that people employ many different ways to seek, and to express what they know of, God. Masonry primarily uses the appellation, "Grand Architect of the Universe," and other nonsectarian titles, to address Deity, In this way, persons of different faiths may join together in prayer, concentrating on God, rather than differences among themselves. Masonry believes in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and God is personal, private, and scared.

Volume of the Sacred Law. An open volume of the Sacred Law, "the rule and guide of life,'' is an essential part of every Masonic meeting. The Volume of the Sacred Law to a Christian is the Bible; to Freemasons of other faiths, it is the book held holy by them.

The Oath of Freemasonry. The obligations taken by Freemasons are sworn on the Volume of the Sacred Law. They are undertakings to follow the principles of Freemasonry and to keep confidential a Freemason's means of recognition. The much discussed "penalties," judicial remnants from an earlier era, are symbolic, not literal. They refer only to the pain any honest man should feel at the thought of violating his word.

Freemasonry Compared with Religion. Freemasonry lacks the basic elements of religion:
      (a) It has no dogma or theology, no wish or means to enforce religious orthodoxy.
      (b) It offers no sacraments.
      (c) It does not claim to lead to salvation by works, by secret knowledge, or by any other means. The secrets of Freemasonry are concerned with modes of recognition,  not with the means of salvation.

Freemasonry supports Religion. Freemasonry is far from indifferent toward religion. Without interfering in religious practice, it expects each member to follow his own faith and to place his Duty to God above all other duties. Its moral teachings are acceptable to all religions.


----------



## FX Jenkins

firefighterusa said:


> Religious Intolerants
> 
> Keep thy tongue from evil, and thy lips from speaking guile.
> Depart from evil, and do good; seek peace, and pursue it.
> King James Bible. Psalms 34:13-14.
> 
> By far, the most vocal opposition to Freemasonry comes from those who believe that they do so in support of their religious beliefs. We've dubbed them 'religious intolerants' because they simply cannot tolerate faith (or other) beliefs that might differ from their own. Although they wrap this in the mantle of "following <whomever/whatever>", in reality it is simply bigotry and hatred.
> 
> Freemasonry is an anathema to the person who is intolerant of another person's faith. Freemasonry accepts as members persons who claim to profess a belief in a Supreme Being and Freemasonry mandates no specific prayers or form of prayer nor does it require any set of faith-based beliefs beyond that simple statement that the applicant believes in a Supreme Being.
> 
> Virtually all of the arguments from these 'religious intolerants' come from those who adhere to a "fundamentalist" view of their religion. Whether they are Baptist, Catholic, Muslim or some other faith, their views are rigid and inflexible. They consider no thoughts or arguments which might sway their preconceived notions. Believing themselves to be Divinely inspired, they broach no dissent - and will argue with vehemence that they've been led by God (or Jesus, as is often the case) to condemn Freemasonry.
> 
> Many of the 'religious intolerants' who object to Freemasonry on religious grounds seem to share common traits:
> Have had a "born-again" experience which brought them to their current belief in Deity;
> Believe in the literal interpretation and the absolute inerrancy of the Bible;
> Do not have formal training in ANY field, much less the relevant ones of theology or classic literature;
> Are not congregants of 'traditional' religious streams;
> Have had 'disputes' with local religious leaders causing them to 'leave in a huff' to be with others whom they perceive as more ideologically 'pure'.
> 
> In addition, it appears that the vast majority have no post-high school education and have worked at marginal and/or non-executive jobs. They seem to have limited their reading to religious texts in agreement with their world view, immediately rejecting without consideration the ideas of those with whom they disagree.
> 
> These things in and of themselves are not uniquely problematic. There are, of course, many men and women of good-will (and with a high impression of Freemasonry) who share some of those traits. However, in addition, there are these more unsettling commonalities. They
> Do not belong to a 'mainstream' religious group;
> Are unwilling to publicly identify their church affiliation;
> Became aware of 'the evils of Freemasonry' through some type of "ministry" which is also against a number of other groups as well (even though their objections might appear to be solely against Freemasonry);
> Rely on what others have said/written rather than objectively looking at facts;
> Are loathe to acknowledge that what they've understood might be wrong in the arguments against Freemasonry;
> Are close followers of a charismatic leader - or totally refuse to accept the religious leadership of another person arguing that each person is a "preacher" in accordance (in their mind) with the Bible;
> Have limited (if any) training in areas such as the Bible, church history, philosophy, or logic (but may consider what they've read in anti-Masonic books or tracts, found on the internet, or heard from a self-labeled "preacher" - or even a proven liar - as sufficient 'proof');
> Are intolerant of other's religious beliefs and ideals, wishing to remain safe and secure in the knowledge that they have the 'ultimate answers';
> Have a "spiritual advisor" and demand others identify the person whom that they have for this purpose in order to somehow 'vet' the religious beliefs held; and
> Often loudly and vigorously differ with others over religious theories and interpretations.
> 
> Another common - although not universal - trait amongst this small group is a hatred of those of the Jewish faith and of people of color.
> 
> Many of the arguments against Freemasonry arise from the perceived (and argued to be God-inspired) need by this 'religious intolerant' to "witness" at all times and in all places. Finding Freemasons allows one such opportunity - and particularly in the electronic world where anonymity and a potentially wide audience exists. They see it as a wonderful way to serve their religion.
> 
> Religious intolerants do their religion and themselves a disservice, though, by 'turning off' those who are willing to listen to provable evidence.



did you come up with all this just now....and I would even agree that most practitioners do not consider Masonry a "religion", however, it is in direct competition, or atleast a substitute for service/works with in the church, any church.....

On the first page of the Primer link you provided, it says 

"They are men of charity and good works and they engage in charitable works which have made them "the World's greatest philanthropy! Their services to mankind represent an unparalleled example of the humanitarian commitment and concern of this unique and honorable Fraternity." 

Does this give glory to God, or Free Masonry?


----------



## firefighterusa

why are you getting defensive? i just thought this site would help some people understand what freemasonry is . believe it or not some people think it is a religion.


----------



## dawg2

firefighterusa said:


> why are you getting defensive? i just thought this site would help some people understand what freemasonry is . believe it or not some people think it is a religion.



Good luck with proving it isn't.  I've been trying to prove to some folks on here that Catholicism "is."


----------



## Just BB

I would like to invite anyone on here that thinks masonry is bad to our family night on April 26, 2008 at Campbellton Lodge at the Fulton County/Douglas County line on Hwy 92.  (www.campbelltonlodge76.org) You can look at our alter that has only the King James Version Bible on it. It's sat there since the 1800's. You can say the blessing over the food with us to Jesus Christ, Our Lord in Heaven. You can chat with the many members that are decons at their respective churches. You can, if you want, learn the truths about Masonry. We will not try to get you to become a Mason. We will not talk politics or religion while in Lodge because we are neither a political organization nor a religeous organization. You can read all kind of myths and theories about Masonry all day long but it doesn't mean it's the truth. I had a good friend show me all the websites when I first joined the Lodge. I read them and I told him, you know what, My Grandfather and my wife's Grandfather were masons, they were also Christians that attended Baptist Churches. I think they were good men. I think I'll just see for myself, then I'll make the decision. I took my obligations on that King James Bible and I took it to God, no one else. I'm not going to discuss my obligations to anyone that is not a mason because it was between me, God and my fellow  masons. Our President takes an obligation, our fighting men and women take obligations, I can't understand why my masonic obligation would scare anyone. Since then, I have been around good men that try to make themselves better men, better husbands and better co workers. I have prayed for people in need that were or were not masons and said those prayers to God. I have helped folks that needed either money or work done. I have spent saturdays, cleaning up a cemetary full of Christian folks that were layed there during the revolutionary war.  Through all of this, I still believe in Jesus. I still believe that the only way to be saved is to believe in him. I've heard many talk about the dreaded "Symbols" we have in Masonry. We as Christians, Americans or what have you deal with Symbols in every aspect of our daily lives. There are many manmade symbols that have been thought up by some money hungry person to sell to Christians. Does it make them bad Christians to buy them? No. Yes there are symbols in Masonry, They are simply a way of teaching masonry to it's members, they are not substitutes for God.
It amazes me how many folks will condem something that they know nothing about. It would seem that most folks could understand that just because someone writes something down, it has to be the truth. You might say that about what I've just typed. if so, I'm not here to argue about it. You can take my word or leave it. It doesn't matter one bit whether you think I'm a Christian and a Mason and that I'm going to heaven. It only matters what Jesus thinks of me....I would add that if you really want to know what a Mason is, look around and realize that many of the co-workers, relatives, family members, people that you've met in your life only briefly or people you've never met that really impressed you as a decent, loving, god fearing and honest person stood a good chance of being a Mason.


----------



## firefighterusa

Just BB said:


> I would like to invite anyone on here that thinks masonry is bad to our family night on April 26, 2008 at Campbellton Lodge at the Fulton County/Douglas County line on Hwy 92.  (www.campbelltonlodge76.org) You can look at our alter that has only the King James Version Bible on it. It's sat there since the 1800's. You can say the blessing over the food with us to Jesus Christ, Our Lord in Heaven. You can chat with the many members that are decons at their respective churches. You can, if you want, learn the truths about Masonry. We will not try to get you to become a Mason. We will not talk politics or religion while in Lodge because we are neither a political organization nor a religeous organization. You can read all kind of myths and theories about Masonry all day long but it doesn't mean it's the truth. I had a good friend show me all the websites when I first joined the Lodge. I read them and I told him, you know what, My Grandfather and my wife's Grandfather were masons, they were also Christians that attended Baptist Churches. I think they were good men. I think I'll just see for myself, then I'll make the decision. I took my obligations on that King James Bible and I took it to God, no one else. I'm not going to discuss my obligations to anyone that is not a mason because it was between me, God and my fellow  masons. Our President takes an obligation, our fighting men and women take obligations, I can't understand why my masonic obligation would scare anyone. Since then, I have been around good men that try to make themselves better men, better husbands and better co workers. I have prayed for people in need that were or were not masons and said those prayers to God. I have helped folks that needed either money or work done. I have spent saturdays, cleaning up a cemetary full of Christian folks that were layed there during the revolutionary war.  Through all of this, I still believe in Jesus. I still believe that the only way to be saved is to believe in him. I've heard many talk about the dreaded "Symbols" we have in Masonry. We as Christians, Americans or what have you deal with Symbols in every aspect of our daily lives. There are many manmade symbols that have been thought up by some money hungry person to sell to Christians. Does it make them bad Christians to buy them? No. Yes there are symbols in Masonry, They are simply a way of teaching masonry to it's members, they are not substitutes for God.
> It amazes me how many folks will condem something that they know nothing about. It would seem that most folks could understand that just because someone writes something down, it has to be the truth. You might say that about what I've just typed. if so, I'm not here to argue about it. You can take my word or leave it. It doesn't matter one bit whether you think I'm a Christian and a Mason and that I'm going to heaven. It only matters what Jesus thinks of me....I would add that if you really want to know what a Mason is, look around and realize that many of the co-workers, relatives, family members, people that you've met in your life only briefly or people you've never met that really impressed you as a decent, loving, god fearing and honest person stood a good chance of being a Mason.



amen brother


----------



## FX Jenkins

firefighterusa said:


> why are you getting defensive? i just thought this site would help some people understand what freemasonry is . believe it or not some people think it is a religion.



If your speaking to me, I'm sorry you felt my comments where defensive...I'll keep in mind your sensitive side  

Seriously though..I'm not emotional about this, its just the articles you've posted try to dismiss critics as being stupid or uneducated or intolerant..and I'm just trying to show why I am in opposition to it...and I guess if I have a "Evangelist Mentality", great, I see that as a compliment...

Its a spiritual debate forum...thats what were doing.   For whats its worth, I've never meet you but I would take you hunting in heartbeat just for being a Woodys member..and I also think your profession is very noble ....


----------



## firefighterusa

*good one!*

"If your speaking to me, I'm sorry you felt my comments where defensive...I'll keep in mind your sensitive side "


----------



## PWalls

Just BB said:


> really impressed you as a decent, loving, god fearing and honest person stood a good chance of being a Mason.



I don't know of anyone on here that has said Masons are "bad". The organization does some really good things.

Some just question how they reconcile some of the things that are out there with their Christian faith.


----------



## firefighterusa

i am not trying to recruit anyone or trying make anyone mad . i know the good deeds masons do. some people on here think just because we do not support one religion that its ungodly,but that is far from the truth.i am a Presbyterian and i believe in jesus but i am not going to think any less of a person if they are jewish , baptist or whatever. when i joined the masons i joined with a baptist preacher,and a methodist preacher. cant remember the number but our lodge but they are several preachers , firefighters,cops,farmers, and every other profession you can think of and they all will go out of there way to help someone in need regardless of who or what they are because that is the kind of people we are.


----------



## Just BB

FX Jenkins said:


> If your speaking to me, I'm sorry you felt my comments where defensive...I'll keep in mind your sensitive side
> 
> Seriously though..I'm not emotional about this, its just the articles you've posted try to dismiss critics as being stupid or uneducated or intolerant..and I'm just trying to show why I am in opposition to it...and I guess if I have a "Evangelist Mentality", great, I see that as a compliment...
> 
> Its a spiritual debate forum...thats what were doing.   For whats its worth, I've never meet you but I would take you hunting in heartbeat just for being a Woodys member..and I also think your profession is very noble ....




Hey Jenx, See that's the whole thing. Masonry is not a religeous organization! Yet it is being debated like it is. I guess it bothers some folks, myself included that so many untruths are stated about freemasonry and usually by folks that have no real sense of what freemasonry is. Like I said in my above post. I'm a christian first and foremost. I may not be as learned as some of the folks on here but I annouced before god and everyone else that I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. From the many times, I've sat in a church since then, I've never heard that there was much more to it. I don't have to do good works to go to Heaven. I realize I'm simplifying it quite a bit here and others might jump on me but Jesus wanted me to say I love him and believe in him and he would take care of the rest. I know there is more he wants me to do. He wants me to spread the word amoung other things. Isn't that what I just did? Because I joined a group of men that come together a couple times a month to eat, laugh, pray for those in need and sometimes give money to help out a sick child or elderly person doesn't mean that I don't believe in Christ. We recently collected 1000.00 dollars to help a little 13 year old girl in Tyrone that has only 2 years to live. We did it because we are loving, caring men that believe that just because the Doctors have said there is nothing to be done, we can at least help with gas money to get her to Scottish Rite one a week until God touches her cancer and vanishes it. Please someone, tell me what is wrong with that. Why wouldn't God want his children to help another one? If Masonry was a secret society, you wouldn't know about it. I'm telling you all about it right now. I know I won't change anyone's opinion that doesn't want to change but at least I've stood up for what I think is a wonderful organization of men that love God, love America and love their fellow beings here on Earth.


----------



## Just BB

PWalls said:


> I don't know of anyone on here that has said Masons are "bad". The organization does some really good things.
> 
> Some just question how they reconcile some of the things that are out there with their Christian faith.



PWalls, I'm sorry if I mispoke. I have to admit that I didn't read all the post on here. I'm not sure what you are referring to about reconciling things that are out there. I can only speak for myself and for my Lodge and the ones I've visited. I don't know anything about wings on devil looking creatures or anything like that that have appeared here. I have heard alot of Christians throwing stones at other Christians and to me, that just doesn't seem like the right thing to do. That's one reason, I usually stay out of this particuliar forum. it gets too hot for me.


----------



## dawg2

Just BB said:


> Hey Jenx, See that's the whole thing. Masonry is not a religeous organization! Yet it is being debated like it is....



Well if it is not a religous organization, then why is there a bible, prayers, Supreme Creator, etc.

Just a question, not an argument


----------



## PWalls

Just BB said:


> I can only speak for myself and for my Lodge and the ones I've visited. I don't know anything about wings on devil looking creatures or anything like that that have appeared here.



You make an excellent point. From what I understand, and it may be a Southern Mason thing only, the local lodges around here are exactly like you mention.

On the reconcile part there are issues: Oaths (you mention "obligations" almost like that is a verbal compromise), titles of men called Worshipful Master, others.

Let me ask this. Why did you feel the need to join? To do good things? To be a part of something good that donates and impacts positively your community?


----------



## firefighterusa

dawg2 said:


> Well if it is not a religous organization, then why is there a bible, prayers, Supreme Creator, etc.
> 
> Just a question, not an argument



i guess since you have to swear on a bible in a court of law that it makes that court a religous court? bibles are in alot of places that arent churches. like motel rooms


----------



## Branchminnow

dawg2 said:


> Good luck with proving it isn't.  I've been trying to prove to some folks on here that Catholicism "is."


----------



## firefighterusa

The only religious item in the Masonic lodge is the holy book of the initiate's own faith.  Since most Masons are Protestant Christians, that book is usually the King James version of the Bible. The initiate may be given a Masonic Bible by his lodge, his friends, or his family, but it varies from other editions of actual Scripture by not one single word. It is only a "Masonic" Bible because it also contains a brief history of Masonry, or a concordance to relate certain Masonic ritual to scriptural passages. Masons who are not Protestants* bring their own holy books for their initiations.
     The religious experience in the lodge is prayer. Every meeting of Masons opens and closes with prayer. Every meal begins with prayer. As is done so often by the federal government (as, for example, with "In God we trust"), all prayer is addressed (or should be) to God the Father, so that a mixed audience of Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Buddhists, for instance, can relate that prayer to their own worship.  Masons also offer prayers for charitable endeavors, for bereaved Masons and their families, or for a departed brother.


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## firefighterusa

Masons believe that there is one God and that people employ many different ways to seek, and to express what they know of, God. Masonry primarily uses the appellation, "Grand Architect of the Universe," and other nonsectarian titles, to address Deity, In this way, persons of different faiths may join together in prayer, concentrating on God, rather than differences among themselves. Masonry believes in religious freedom and that the relationship between the individual and God is personal, private, and sacred.


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## jmharris23

This is the thread that never dies it just goes on and on and on......


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## FX Jenkins

jmharris23 said:


> This is the thread that never dies it just goes on and on and on......



well sir, as long as Masonry and Christianity exist, there will be conflict...and a whole new batch of posters are being born every day....

Just BB, I will never argue that the Masons do some absolutely wonderful things, it is a very well organized institution and there is power in its numbers...nor do I doubt your salvation according to your testament of faith in Jesus Christ, and I think a lot of you as a person.   

And I'll accept that its not a religious organization, but by firefighters last post, it condones a religious philosophy that is contradictory to the Christian faith, ...and deeply regret that you did not find more out of your local church...but thats another issue...thats it from me today boys, time for family, ya'll take care and good evening...


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## dawg2

firefighterusa said:


> i guess since you have to swear on a bible in a court of law that it makes that court a religous court? ...



Yes.  Actually our legal system is deeply rooted in religion, like it or not...because "we" do swear on a bible...if not we'd swear on a chicken foot,  talisman, etc,....


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## dawg2

jmharris23 said:


> This is the thread that never dies it just goes on and on and on......



FX did it!


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## JerkBait

the masons accept all religions to be apart of the fraternity.

the tennis club allows people of all religions to apart of the club.

the homeowners association allows people of all religions to be apart.

the pee-wee team your sons are on allows all denominations....

the NRA allows people of all religions.

this country allows people of all religions......



(to the people "against" masonry) - Youre a christian, and believe solely in christianity but most of you are a part of something (directly or indirectly) that welcomes ALL religions also. youre argument is that free masonry goes against christianity because it (masonry) welcomes all religions yet so does the things that you participate in everyday...... So whats the difference?


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## dawg2

JerkBait said:


> the masons accept all religions to be apart of the fraternity.
> 
> the tennis club allows people of all religions to apart of the club.
> 
> the homeowners association allows people of all religions to be apart.
> 
> the pee-wee team your sons are on allows all denominations....
> 
> the NRA allows people of all religions.
> 
> this country allows people of all religions......
> 
> 
> 
> (to the people "against" masonry) - Youre a christian, and believe solely in christianity but most of you are a part of something (directly or indirectly) that welcomes ALL religions also. youre argument is that free masonry goes against christianity because it (masonry) welcomes all religions yet so does the things that you participate in everyday...... So whats the difference?



Do all Mason's Lodges allow Blacks / African Americans?


----------



## JerkBait

dawg2 said:


> Do all Mason's Lodges allow Blacks / African Americans?



No but what does that have to do with christianity? my bible does not say that if i dont want a certain person in my tree house club then im sinning.....

anyways dawg i know you have a good argument up your sleeve to my previous post and id like to hear it. i plan on going through the lodge unless you can convince me otherwise 

i dont want to discuss whether blacks are allowed or not i want to discuss why its a problem for masons to embrace all religion but its ok for your sons little league team to.....

the funny thing is, ive never met a mason that wasnt a christian..... so what does it matter in the first place?


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## magnumrecovery

WOW! I cant believe that this thread has went this long.

Some folks have way too much time on their hands...


----------



## dawg2

JerkBait said:


> No but what does that have to do with christianity? my bible does not say that if i dont want a certain person in my tree house club then im sinning.....
> Where does it say it is OK to exclude a race?
> anyways dawg i know you have a good argument up your sleeve to my previous post and id like to hear it. i plan on going through the lodge unless you can convince me otherwise
> I have really long sleeves You can go through the Lodge if you would like, I have nothing against Masons.  My beliefs just say that it conflicts or competes with Christianity.
> i dont want to discuss whether blacks are allowed or not i want to discuss why its a problem for masons to embrace all religion but its ok for your sons little league team to.....
> Because it is called Polytheism.  My God is a jealous God.  See Commandments #1 & #2
> the funny thing is, ive never met a mason that wasnt a christian..... so what does it matter in the first place?I know many good men who are Masons.  I do not have a problem with Masons.




See BLUE


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## JerkBait

dawg2 said:


> See BLUE



i wish you would tell me how you see a difference in the organizations i listed (and others like them) and the masons? whats the deal dawg?


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## Just BB

I would like to know which man or woman on here has actually spoken to God and God has explained to him exactly what every word, sentence, phrase, parable, chapter, etc. means in the Bible. I've heard many preachers explain the same sentence differently. It's all how they interpret the Word. I could argue all day long about what was the Word and what wasn't but who is to say I'm right and your wrong? Every person here has determined what they believe to be the interpertation of the Word by either listening to a pastor or studying the Bible. But either way, it's all your interpretation. I'm not going to respond anymore to this thread because I can only speak for myself and what I believe to be the truth. Remember that religions were created by man, Each one of them different. I will be happy to believe that Jesus and I have a relationship and that he loves me and I love him. I will be happy to know that I have never dennouced Him in masonry and never will. I will be happy to know that I am a better man from being a Mason. You folks can fight it out amoungts yourselves because I'm sure that's what Christ would want you to do.

Thanks for your time,

Mike West'
Member The Church at Mirror Lake
F & AM Campbellton Lodge #76


----------



## dawg2

JerkBait said:


> i wish you would tell me how you see a difference in the organizations i listed (and others like them) and the masons? whats the deal dawg?



None of the others require an oath of bodily harm to ones throat, tongue, etc.  

But like I said, I do not have a problem with Masons or the men who join them, that is their personal decision and not mine to judge.  I know a lot of Masons and they are good people and do a lot of good works as well. I just know my religions / churches stance with it dictates we should not participate.


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## JerkBait

I dont know man i just dont see any difference when using "they allow all religions" argument against masons but not other organizations.


----------



## leroy

i may be wrong, and by all means correct me, but the way i understand it freemasonory ranks all religions the same all serving God ,one group may call him allah while as Christians it is Jesus and so on we're all worshiping the same God just different name this would go along with some of firefighterusa's links and posts. I dont agree IF this is correct.


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## magnumrecovery

We require you to believe in "One Supreme Being".

Meaning no atheist are allowed. 

I know of no code or rules that do not allow a member of any particular race to petition and become a member.

But we do have a code that we don't discuss politics or religion in lodge because these are two topics that no one can agree on. This is done  to keep peace and harmony.


----------



## PWalls

magnumrecovery said:


> We require you to believe in "One Supreme Being".
> 
> Meaning no atheist are allowed.



See, this is a stumbling block for many. You mention "One Supreme Being" to keep atheists out. That's fine and dandy. But many different people differ on who that "One Supreme Being" is. The God of the Christian Bible is not the same god that Bhuddists, Muslims, Hindus, etc worship. That "tolerance" leads to an organization promoting or accepting Polytheism (even if passively). That is something a Christian should have a problem with in my opinion. Study Paul's missionary journey to Athens and how he preached to the Greeks who were huge into Polytheism.


----------



## JerkBait

PWalls said:


> See, this is a stumbling block for many. You mention "One Supreme Being" to keep atheists out. That's fine and dandy. But many different people differ on who that "One Supreme Being" is. The God of the Christian Bible is not the same god that Bhuddists, Muslims, Hindus, etc worship. That "tolerance" leads to an organization promoting or accepting Polytheism (even if passively). That is something a Christian should have a problem with in my opinion. Study Paul's missionary journey to Athens and how he preached to the Greeks who were huge into Polytheism.



I see what you are saying but apply it to what i asked earlier in this thread. 

whats the difference in joining the masonic organization or joining the little league team? 

whats the difference in the masons and the homeowners association?

 whats the difference in the masons and joining the Sam's Club??????

 they all allow all denominations so its the same thing. Everyone is guilty of being a part of an organization that permits all religions to join. 

You catholic guys just make right what you want in your own mind and then mold scripture around things youd like to condemn.......

i really dont want to argue i just want some of you (dawg started but didnt want to continue) to explain to me what the difference is (in your mind).


----------



## dawg2

JerkBait said:


> I see what you are saying but apply it to what i asked earlier in this thread.
> 
> whats the difference in joining the masonic organization or joining the little league team?
> 
> whats the difference in the masons and the homeowners association?
> 
> whats the difference in the masons and joining the Sam's Club??????
> 
> they all allow all denominations so its the same thing. Everyone is guilty of being a part of an organization that permits all religions to join.
> 
> You catholic guys just make right what you want in your own mind and then mold scripture around things youd like to condemn.......
> 
> i really dont want to argue i just want some of you (dawg started but didnt want to continue) to explain to me what the difference is (in your mind).



I want to remind everybody we are in the debate forum, so nobody takes this wrong....

and JailBait Like I said before, WHICH of those organizations listed above do you take an oath saying something to the effect, "These several points I solemnly swear to observe under no less penalty, than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root and my body buried in the sands of the sea", "or the more efficient punishment of being branded as a wilfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth". "So help me God", etc. 

I pay $35 for a Sam's membership and all I do is mail them a check.  I can tell anybody any of the prices and I can even take somebody in there with me.

And Again I want to reiterate:   But like I said, I do not have a problem with Masons or the men who join them, that is their personal decision and not mine to judge.  I know a lot of Masons and they are good people and do a lot of good works as well. I just know my religions / churches stance with it dictates we should not participate.




JerkBait said:


> You catholic guys just make right what you want in your own mind and then mold scripture around things youd like to condemn.......
> 
> QUOTE]Actually, Protestants are actually far more adept at what you say above.


----------



## widowmaker1

leroy said:


> i may be wrong, and by all means correct me, but the way i understand it freemasonory ranks all religions the same all serving God ,one group may call him allah while as Christians it is Jesus and so on we're all worshiping the same God just different name this would go along with some of firefighterusa's links and posts. I dont agree IF this is correct.



 now that i would have to say is incorrect. muslims call THEY'RE God allah, and he is Not the same god that we as christians worship. their god sees it as good to rid the world of christians and jews, now how can that be the same god of christianity?


----------



## dawg2

widowmaker1 said:


> now that i would have to say is incorrect. muslims call THEY'RE God allah, and he is Not the same god that we as christians worship. their god sees it as good to rid the world of christians and jews, now how can that be the same god of christianity?



"Allah" is the God of Abraham.


----------



## JerkBait

dawg2 said:


> I want to remind everybody we are in the debate forum, so nobody takes this wrong....
> 
> and JailBait Like I said before, WHICH of those organizations listed above do you take an oath saying something to the effect, "These several points I solemnly swear to observe under no less penalty, than to have my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root and my body buried in the sands of the sea", "or the more efficient punishment of being branded as a wilfully perjured individual, void of all moral worth". "So help me God", etc.
> 
> I pay $35 for a Sam's membership and all I do is mail them a check.  I can tell anybody any of the prices and I can even take somebody in there with me.
> 
> And Again I want to reiterate:   But like I said, I do not have a problem with Masons or the men who join them, that is their personal decision and not mine to judge.  I know a lot of Masons and they are good people and do a lot of good works as well. I just know my religions / churches stance with it dictates we should not participate.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> JerkBait said:
> 
> 
> 
> You catholic guys just make right what you want in your own mind and then mold scripture around things youd like to condemn.......
> 
> QUOTE]Actually, Protestants are actually far more adept at what you say above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ok, dead end debate. we both have our point of view. i feel that is not a valid arguement but im fine with your opinion. if anyone else would like to try and bring another point of view to this debate then go ahead but theres no difference (to me).
> 
> hey dawg wanna car pool up to D.C. with me today? we'll go meet the pope....
Click to expand...


----------



## dawg2

JerkBait said:


> dawg2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> hey dawg wanna car pool up to D.C. with me today? we'll go meet the pope....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on your security clearance.  I'm pretty sure they wouldn't let you in.
Click to expand...


----------



## JerkBait

dawg2 said:


> JerkBait said:
> 
> 
> 
> Depends on your security clearance.  I'm pretty sure they wouldn't let you in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> probably not.
> 
> but i did watch some of the thing on tv today that had ol bene` on it....
Click to expand...


----------



## widowmaker1

dawg2 said:


> "Allah" is the God of Abraham.



indeed a different allah, because the god of abraham would never encourage the domination of christians such as the koran teaches.--or maybe they just stole the term from our bible


----------



## PWalls

JerkBait said:


> I see what you are saying but apply it to what i asked earlier in this thread.
> 
> whats the difference in joining the masonic organization or joining the little league team?
> 
> whats the difference in the masons and the homeowners association?
> 
> whats the difference in the masons and joining the Sam's Club??????
> 
> they all allow all denominations so its the same thing. Everyone is guilty of being a part of an organization that permits all religions to join.
> 
> You catholic guys just make right what you want in your own mind and then mold scripture around things youd like to condemn.......
> 
> i really dont want to argue i just want some of you (dawg started but didnt want to continue) to explain to me what the difference is (in your mind).



If you can't see the difference, then I don't know if I can help you. I'll try though. Dawg2 did a pretty good job of it.

Little League doesn't make you call some man worshipful master. Little League allows all races to play.

The difference is the ideosyncricies within each of those organizations. Those little things (worshipful master, oaths, etc) is what makes it hard for a Christian to swallow no matter how shiny the coating on the pill.

Again, there are great guys in Masonry. The organization does good things. But, there is definately some red flags in my opinion.

Oh, BTW, I am not Catholic.


----------



## BKA

There are worse cults than the Masons.


----------



## dawg2

JerkBait said:


> dawg2 said:
> 
> 
> 
> probably not.
> 
> but i did watch some of the thing on tv today that had ol bene` on it....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's actually a zuchetto.  But you can call it a bene`
Click to expand...


----------



## dawg2

widowmaker1 said:


> indeed a different allah, because the god of abraham would never encourage the domination of christians such as the koran teaches.--or maybe they just stole the term from our bible



They follow OT laws...and then came Muhammed...


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## dawg2

PWalls said:


> Oh, BTW, I am not Catholic.



Come on...tell the truth


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## widowmaker1

dawg2 said:


> They follow OT laws...and then came Muhammed...



and with muhammed must have came a new god.Jesus tells us that the doctrine of the old testament is still law, but he brings a new covenant-that he is the only way to the father.


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## dawg2

widowmaker1 said:


> and with muhammed must have came a new god.Jesus tells us that the doctrine of the old testament is still law, but he brings a new covenant-that he is the only way to the father.



 Start a new thread and we can debate it there, I don't want to hijack this one


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## FX Jenkins

JerkBait said:


> i really dont want to argue i just want some of you (dawg started but didnt want to continue) to explain to me what the difference is (in your mind).



alright I'll try to explain my mind..

I'm a US citizen, proud of my country and swore an oath to protect her...and yes, we are a nation with liberty for all, liberty to worship as you so desire....I'm also required to get an education in this country, and am taught about philosophies that are contradictory to my faith...no problems yet... I even swore an oath in 4 H ...hands to better service, head to better learning...and thats about all I think I can remember...but none of these institutions required me to compromise my Christian beliefs according to the scriptures, and then swear my life to something that wasn't made perfectly clear and fully divulged at the onset...furthermore, and this is all from external research, that is, I've never been inside the doors of the masonic temple...interestingly enough its promoted not as a religious organization yet uses the terms worshipful master, has a temple, ascribes to acquiring enlightenment through rituals before the Grand Architect of the Universe, and by its own definition "The erection of buildings and consecrating them to the veneration of God, we will admit was the purpose of the builders, of the ancient operative art.  While the Masons of the Speculative Sciences operate in a spiritual sense, employing the tools of the Operative Mason as symbols, and using veiled allegories, from the Bible to convey to their initiates a lesson and belief, that there is life beyond the grave"

....and no I don't believe everything I hear or read, and take everything with a grain of salt, but when I start to see repetitive and non-refuted information on a subject, and even supportive information from inside sources...I develop an opinion...back to my point, My main objections were previously provided...in that the glory for the organizations works are attributed to the organization and humanity or philanthropy and not to Gods work in our life through Christ (Matthew 5:16)..and as I've said before...I know some fine men that are masons, some the even believed they were going to heaven because they were masons...I just don't agree with the fundamentals of a secretive establishment that competes with the Christian church as the body of Christ and then adopts a universalistic approach to God....Its fine for others but not for me...and I'll I've done in this entire thread is try to answer the original posters question...


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## leroy

GREAT post FX.


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## JerkBait

dawg2 said:


> It's actually a zuchetto.  But you can call it a bene`



i meant Bene - as in Benedict. Pope Benedict........


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## Morgan89

Ulysses said:


> I would respectfully say that your uncle was a fine man, and probably a good preacher, but a very poor Mason. The Masonic belief system in the "Great Architect" as God is heresy and anti-Christian.
> 
> I guess you can be a merely social member of the Masons, without subscribing to their heretical beliefs, but why would you want to?
> 
> Edited to add:
> 
> That would be very much like hanging out at a mosque for social interation and philanthropy, but claiming that you don't believe in Allah....




i would respectfully say do some research on religon and language ....

the great architect is pronounced in hebrew AS JAHOVA AKA GOD.... 

im not a freemason yet.. in the process and more than likely im going to get it.... heres a link friend that will help you alot

but lets say it was satanic worship.. this is america.. thats there right.. i would try to explain the difference between satnist and devil worshipers... but ill let you figure that one out friend

http://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/freemasons.html


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## TimB

JerkBait said:


> No but what does that have to do with christianity? my bible does not say that if i dont want a certain person in my tree house club then im sinning.....
> 
> i dont want to discuss whether blacks are allowed or not i want to discuss why its a problem for masons to embrace all religion but its ok for your sons little league team to.....



I would just wonder why any Christian would want to belong to an organization that excludes an entire segment of the human race including a lot of other Christians. God is no respecter of persons and we are supposed to endeavor to be like him. 




> the funny thing is, ive never met a mason that wasnt a christian..... so what does it matter in the first place?



A lot of people say they are Christian who are not. If I made life decisions based on what "other Christians" do I'd be drinking beer, viewing porno, cussing like a sailor and  a lot of other things I know the word says a Christian should not do. Christ has to be my model, not "other Christians". 

 Also, you do not have to take a "sacred" Oath to get into a little league ball team. Christians are not supposed to forswear anything;



			
				Jesus said:
			
		

> Mat 5:33	"Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ' YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.'
> 
> Mat 5:34	"But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
> 
> Mat 5:35	or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING.
> 
> Mat 5:36	"Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
> 
> Mat 5:37	"But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil.




According to these New Testament passages, we are to swear no oaths at all. But let me point out in particular, one statement from the book of Matthew:

Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.    (Matthew 5:36)

Consider the penalties of the obligations (Masonic Nevada ritual, circa 1984):

"To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in me whatsoever; binding myself under no less a penalty than that of having….

Entered Apprentice Degree: "..my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice."

Fellow Craft Degree: "..my left breast torn open, my heart and vitals taken thence, and with my body given as a prey to the vultures of the air, should I ever knowingly, or willfully, violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Fellow Craft."; 

Master Mason Degree: "..my body severed in twain, my bowels taken thence, and with my body burned to ashes, and the ashes thereof scattered to the four winds of Heaven, that there might remain neither track, trace nor remembrance among man or Masons of so vile and perjured a wretch as I should be, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of a Master Mason."

And the ending for each of these obligations is: 

"So help me, God, and make me steadfast to keep and perform the same."


I ask, What would Jesus do?


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## Morgan89

wellllll if thats the case.. i guess your going to hadies if you join the military.... guess your gone to hadies if you become a peace officer of any kind.. guess your gone to hadies if you swear on the bible in court... 

also.. to everyone who doesn't want "anything to do with masons" move out of america.. it was made by masons.. and from what i've seen most the people who run it are masons.. now you mason haters are going to reply "yea look how the economy is.. there doing a great job" well friends.. were the best thing going

one last thing.. this is dumber than debating if green acorns look better than brown acorns.. do you know why?! AT THE END OF THE DAY NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE.. THE LODGE AINT CLOSING.. THE LODGE WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT WE'VE BEN DOING FOR YEARS... AND MOST OF ALL.. GOD SAID ALOT OF PEOPLE WERE GOING TO HADIES ... SO YOU KNOW WHAT!! QUIT TRYING TO MAKE HIM A LIAR!!

have a safe hunt...


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## centerpin fan

jmharris23 said:


> This is the thread that never dies it just goes on and on and on......



Ain't it the truth -- back from the dead after almost four years.


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## ambush80

Shut this one down too because people can't seem to agree on what it says in the Bible.


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## Israel

Each man will stand or fall according to his master, and the Bible, as wonderful as it is, is not your, or my, Creator. 
It can do nothing to preserve us, do nothing of itself to enliven us, do nothing of itself to show Jesus. For that, the Holy Spirit alone is given in the name of Christ.
If you like secret societies and secret handshakes and secret knowledge and that feeling of being special because _you_ have separated yourself to something...even something that you are adept at defending because it makes a show of its good works...so be it.

No one judges us but the Lord alone. Just don't be so foolish to imagine he is a long way off for any of us.

Behold I come quickly.


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## TimB

Morgan89 said:


> wellllll if thats the case.. i guess your going to hadies if you join the military.... guess your gone to hadies if you become a peace officer of any kind.. guess your gone to hadies if you swear on the bible in court...



The idea is mainly to not swear "_falsely_" , 




> YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS





Honest men have no problem upholding an oath to tell the truth and I don't think God minds that. And everyone I knew in the military meant to uphold their oath to serve honorably there. 

 I wonder how many masons would actually slit their own throat rather than violate their oath;



> "..my throat cut across, my tongue torn out, and with my body buried in the sands of the sea at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly or willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of an Entered Apprentice."



And does not the bible teach that our body is the temple of the Holy Ghost and that we belong to God not ourselves? So how then can a Christian swear an oath that would require the destruction of God's property?

 You say oh, it's just a simple thing. Really? It's either a false oath or you intend to do it. 



> also.. to everyone who doesn't want "anything to do with masons" move out of america.. it was made by masons.. and from what i've seen most the people who run it are masons..



I'm relatively new on this forum and haven't read this complete thread as it goes back a ways but my read on it is that it has nothing to do with anyone hating masons or not wanting anything to do with masons, maybe someone said that earlier I don't know. But my own purpose is nothing personal against masons, my favorite uncle was a mason. I just don't think it's an organization that is wholly compatible with Christianity. 



> one last thing.. this is dumber than debating if green acorns look better than brown acorns.. do you know why?! AT THE END OF THE DAY NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE.. THE LODGE AINT CLOSING.. THE LODGE WILL CONTINUE TO DO WHAT WE'VE BEN DOING FOR YEARS... AND MOST OF ALL.. GOD SAID ALOT OF PEOPLE WERE GOING TO HADIES ... SO YOU KNOW WHAT!! QUIT TRYING TO MAKE HIM A LIAR!!
> 
> have a safe hunt...




I don't know of anyone trying to close down masonic temples or lodges or whatever. Personally I'm just presenting thoughts on why a Christian might want to think twice before joining such an organization. 

 For one thing a new apprentice mason is not told anywhere near what really goes on in masonry in the higher echelons. Years ago my church had a guest speaker who was a former 33rd degree mason who had gotten born again and started studying the bible and found that what he knew and what he had to do as a high degree mason was not compatible with his walk with God. 

 As a Christian I'm not joining anything unless I  know fully every aspect of what it is I will be doing in advance and feel it will work well with my Christian ideals. You just can't do that with the masons, too much secrecy and skullduggery involved.


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## thedeacon

Israel said:


> Each man will stand or fall according to his master, and the Bible, as wonderful as it is, is not your, or my, Creator.
> It can do nothing to preserve us, do nothing of itself to enliven us, do nothing of itself to show Jesus. For that, the Holy Spirit alone is given in the name of Christ.
> If you like secret societies and secret handshakes and secret knowledge and that feeling of being special because _you_ have separated yourself to something...even something that you are adept at defending because it makes a show of its good works...so be it.
> 
> No one judges us but the Lord alone. Just don't be so foolish to imagine he is a long way off for any of us.
> 
> Behold I come quickly.



I agree with you 

I know very little about the Mason's, nor am I curious, I am not big in joining any organizations. I was a member of the JC's in years past and I did enjoy it very much. I found that it took more time than I was willing to give.

I am solely commited to my Lord Jesus Christ and his Church and according to my bible saten cannot prevail over it. I will be judged by what I do for His church and that alone. I have the rule's recorded so I can read them anytime I choose.

I will be judged on that and that alone and by God alone. If I find solice it that what else do I need.

God Bless


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## SOUTHERNMASON

Ulysses said:


> Pretty much says it all right there. Maybe it's different today, but the Mason "religion" has historically been anti-Christian and heretical.



well masonary is not a religion, and i find it funny how god says to love everyone and let not he pass judgement.

some your judging these masons and doing gods job of passing judgment. some fine christain yall are

but then again there is no point in arguing with simple minded people who are stuck on their ways and thoughst because they are too close minded and ignorant to what they truley dont know about or ready on the internet.
SO you and mr floppy eared dog  need to do a little soul searching an ask  yourself am i being a good christain and judging these people and not really knowing whats going on,
AND TO clear it up   I AM A MASON, A CHRISTAIN, A ACTIVE DUTY SERVICE MEN, A CHRUCH GOER, A SHRINER, AND A GOD FEARING MAN

so you continue  to judge and cast your stones i will continue to do my charity work with my brothers, and i will add you to my prayer list and hope you find peace and happyness, god bless


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## SOUTHERNMASON

dawg2 said:


> Do all Mason's Lodges allow Blacks / African Americans?


does the untied negro college fund give  money to whites?

does all country clubs let the poor join?

its a private group, its each lodges choice to decide who they want to be a part of the lodge or not , has nothing to do with religion, you are really searching for a validation to your misguided reasoning


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## mtnwoman

jmharris23 said:


> The answer to magnumrecovery's question is like the answer to most others in this forum. It comes down to a matter of your personal interpretation of scripture, your culture, your personal background, and family history.
> 
> For example, if your daddy and your daddy's daddy was a mason and they both went to church and lived a "normal" Christian life then you most likely will see nothing wrong with it, nor will you be looking to find anything wrong with it.
> 
> Being a mason is like everything else we talk about in here, there is my side of the story, your side of the story, and the truth. As in the case of most of these debatable opinions we all THINK we KNOW whats right but only God truly knows.
> 
> The great thing is that the bible says that " God knows the heart of man"
> 
> Can you be a Christian and a mason. I imagine so. As mad as this might make someone, I would liken membership in a "secret" society like the masons to drinking.
> 
> Is it wrong to have a drink? Nope. Do I like it? Yes! Do I do it? Nah. Why not? Because I'd rather abstain from something I enjoy rather than have someone stumble over my example.
> 
> But just like drinking, if I see my Christian brother have a drink I personally think no less of him.
> 
> If I have a Christian brother who chooses to be a mason, I think no less of him.
> 
> If he's good with it, thinks that God is good with it, has a good conscience about it and can find no CLEAR biblical mandate against it, I'm not gonna try and change his mind



Yep I agree!


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## mtnwoman

SOUTHERNMASON said:


> does the untied negro college fund give  money to whites?*only the pre-elected need apply?*
> 
> does all country clubs let the poor join?*Only the pre-elected need apply?*
> 
> its a private group, its each lodges choice to decide who they want to be a part of the lodge or not , has nothing to do with religion, you are really searching for a validation to your misguided reasoning...*the elect of God fall into this category before they are even saved to become elected.*



I love it. Thanks for letting me piggy back off your post. Great post by the way!

Only God knows your heart!!  Don't worry that others judge you based on their perception of what Christ did for you. As for me, nobody knows what Jesus/God has done for me.  I was saved because I did what He ask me to do...believe and repent.


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