# Does tree stand height effect your bowshooting?



## chambers270 (Aug 16, 2006)

I shot for the first time out of my 12 foot buddy stand yesterday and all of my shots seemed a little high. 

Is this normal, since I sighted it in off the ground? Or is this a issue with my form?

Thanks
Chris


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## reylamb (Aug 16, 2006)

Typically, it is from not bending at the waste and maintaing the 90 degree angle in your bow arm.  That is the reason most folks shoot high out of treestands.


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## Just 1 More (Aug 16, 2006)

chambers270 said:
			
		

> I shot for the first time out of my 12 foot buddy stand yesterday and all of my shots seemed a little high.
> 
> Is this normal, since I sighted it in off the ground? Or is this a issue with my form?
> 
> ...


Usually a form issue.. lowering your arm instaed of bending at the waist.. it's very common


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## Jody Hawk (Aug 16, 2006)

Chambers270,
This from the Bowhunting and Equipment Skills book. Hope this helps.

Shooting at an angle

Bows are generally sighted in for horizontal shots where arrow trajectories are predictable. However, when you shoot from a high tree stand or on a uphill or downhill slope, the rules of trajectory change.

At a given distance, gravity has the greatest effect on trajectory for an arrow flying horizontally, and has gradually less effect as the shooting angle is raised or lowered. The reason for this is that the trajectory arc is determined by the horizontal distance the arrow travels, not the overall distance. When shooting at steep angles, either up or down, aiming for the actual distance to the target is a mistake. At steep angles, you must learn to compensate by aiming low.

Gravity exerts it's influence only against the horizontal distance of an arrows flight. When you shoot horizontally at a target 40 yards away, gravity exerts it's influence the full 40 yards, and the arrows drop follows expectations. But when you shoot at a downward angle at a target 40 yards away, the horizontal distance can be much less. In this situation, if you shoot using the 40 yard sight pin, your arrow will hit high on the target, since it has not had time to complete it's normal trajectory drop for 40 horizontal yards.


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## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

reylamb said:
			
		

> Typically, it is from not bending at the waste and maintaing the 90 degree angle in your bow arm.  That is the reason most folks shoot high out of treestands.


There's your answer!  The distance does change some what but there is minimal effect at bow ranges.  More often that not it is the form that causes the high shots.


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## Jody Hawk (Aug 16, 2006)

I still disagree with this. If you are shooting at a target at a distance of 40 yards on the ground and shoot at the same target 25 feet up a tree, it only makes sense that gravity will effect that arrow somewhat because less gravity is pushing down on the tree shot arrow as it flys, no matter what form you are using.


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## Jorge (Aug 16, 2006)

reylamb said:
			
		

> Typically, it is from not bending at the waste and maintaing the 90 degree angle in your bow arm.  That is the reason most folks shoot high out of treestands.


Dang, I thought it was because my target was ducking the string.


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## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

Jody Hawk said:
			
		

> I still disagree with this. If you are shooting at a target at a distance of 40 yards on the ground and shoot at the same target 25 feet up a tree, it only makes sense that gravity will effect that arrow somewhat because less gravity is pushing down on the tree shot arrow as it flys, no matter what form you are using.


But what about when you range him from the tree at 40 and still shoot high.  Jody, do the math (geometry) the hypotenus (i never could spell) is just not that different.  It is a little more at 40 yards but most shoot high right under the stand.


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## Randy (Aug 16, 2006)

Jody Hawk said:
			
		

> .... less gravity is pushing down on the tree shot arrow as it flys, no matter what form you are using.


Gravity is constant!


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## reylamb (Aug 16, 2006)

Jody Hawk said:
			
		

> I still disagree with this. If you are shooting at a target at a distance of 40 yards on the ground and shoot at the same target 25 feet up a tree, it only makes sense that gravity will effect that arrow somewhat because less gravity is pushing down on the tree shot arrow as it flys, no matter what form you are using.


Physics states gravity is a constant, so we can throw that out.  While shooting downward we are working with gravity, so that will lessen the effects to a minor degree.  However, whn you go up 25 ft in a tree that target is no longer 40 yards from you, while minor the difference would be about 1 yard longer.  Shooting with gravity will in effect cause the 1 yard difference to be negated, thus you would shoot for the horizontal distance.  If you drop your bow arm the angle from your eye through the peep to the site changes, it has to along with a slight change in your anchor.  This is what causes a high impact, not gravity.

Ulmer had a lengthy discussion on it in one of the Bowhunter Magazines.  His bottom line?  Impacting high is a function of poor form from elevated stands.


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## chambers270 (Aug 16, 2006)

I have read some of Reylambs and some other peoples posts on dropping your arm. So I was paying close attention to bend at the waist. I was still hitting 3-4 inches high at 20 yards?

Should I sight my bow in from the treestand? Or I can just leave it and then I will not have to aim high to take into effect the trajectory on the vitals.

Thanks
Chris


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## Count Down (Aug 16, 2006)

Sight in on the range at 20 ....That is your "CONSTANT"...When you practice from the stand, you will always have to "judge" you distance, unless you have time for the rangfinder...I shoot 3 inches high sitting in my 15 footer, shooting 20 yards...I just aim a little low...But, I have read the scientific version of theis conversation in Bowhunting magazine. I'm sure it's still in the bathroom, I'll dig it out  and post what it says..

Gravity has less impact on the arch of the arrow when shot downward. Less impact of gravity means less downward movement of the arrow in relation to the upward movement when the arrow leaves the rest.  If you shoot a target at 16 yards on the range with a 20 yard pin, you'll be high. Shoot the same 16 yards sitting 12 feet in the air...you'll be right on....

works for me.

Anyway, thats my novice, uneducated, rookie, knowledge


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## Randy (Aug 17, 2006)

chambers270 said:
			
		

> I have read some of Reylambs and some other peoples posts on dropping your arm. So I was paying close attention to bend at the waist. I was still hitting 3-4 inches high at 20 yards?
> 
> Should I sight my bow in from the treestand? Or I can just leave it and then I will not have to aim high to take into effect the trajectory on the vitals.
> 
> ...



Not only should you finalize your sights from an elevated stand if you plan to hunt from one but you should also practice from it.  My last month of practice is from an elevated stand just prior to season.


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## whitworth (Aug 17, 2006)

*The Case for Trianges and Gravity*

Treestand shooting does effect my bow shooting, because all my deer hunting shooting comes out of treestands.  
Shooting a little high means you are closer to the target than you think.  Has something to do with quantum physics in that you really are about as close to the target as you are from the target at the bottom of the tree, where it touches the ground.


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## Davexx1 (Aug 17, 2006)

Chris

Sight your bow in from the tree stand if that is what you will be hunting from most of the time.

Practice with your broadheads, with camo hunt clothes on, at the exact height/distance you will be hunting, etc.  Practice exactly as you will be hunting.

Also, practice on level ground because you always stand a chance of getting a bow shot opportunity when walking to/from the stand so you want to be prepared.  Take a marker pen and write the + - figures for level ground shooting on the bow riser where you can quickly see them if needed.  This is a big help when excited and anxious.  It is very easy to forget or use the wrong pin.  It is for that reason that I use a single sight pin.

Good luck, Dave


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## chambers270 (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks for the idea, I was wondering how I would remember all of those differences in shots at different ranges. I am going to write those down on my bow.

Thanks again
Chris


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## Davexx1 (Aug 18, 2006)

Keep it all as simple as is possible because when you have a deer in front of you, you usually have only a split second to make the decision of how to hold on him for a shot.

Misjudging longer distance by 3 or 4 yards can make a significant difference in where the arrow hits, add in the fact that in the excitement you may have used the wrong sight pin and the deer heard the bow go off and he flinched/ducked/jumped and you can see how bad hits occur.  The effects of these factors can be minimized by keeping your bow shots short.  Personally, I will not shoot at a deer past about 20 yards.  I do this because the chances of making a bad hit at longer ranges are great.  It doesn't matter how well you can shoot your bow at longer ranges, if the deer has moved, your arrow will not hit where you aimed.

Hope this helps.

Dave1


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## Booner Killa (Aug 18, 2006)

I wouldn't worry about it. It's like golf. If it is consistent you can correct it. You can do one of two things. Aim low, but you better aim really low because you have to take into account string jump. In this case if a deer ducks 5 inches and you are three inches high, you'd better aim 8 inches low on a deer. This is scary because now you are almost aiming under a deer for a heart shot. I would take the advice of some of these experts and try and change my form before deer season. I've had the same problem before myself.


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## Hawken2222 (Aug 18, 2006)

This is a very informative thread.  I will be starting to shoot out of a deer stand for practice next week, and I will definately be consious of my form, after reading this thread.


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Aug 18, 2006)

This was a great thread, my friends and I have been discussing this for about a week.  A guy I work with brought a petersen's bowhunting mag from march/april, it has an article by Bill Wienke on same subject.  Great thread, great advise.


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## NorthGaBowhunter (Aug 18, 2006)

I always shoot at the bottom 1/3 of the deer. I would not move my pins I practice a lot on the ground and I practice from the stand and after enough practice you just know were to shoot. I shoot the bottom of dots on the targets and it works for me.good luck 270 practice practice practice


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## CAMO84 (Aug 18, 2006)

Just dont fall into the trap of a pendilum sight. Works great in a tree at 12' and up but it is very agrivating to try and shot from the ground. My wife bought one for me and to may her feel good I used it for a year. 0 to 45 yards it was deadly from the tree but I could only shoot about 20 on the ground and feel comfortable with it. Going back to pins this year.


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## base3448 (Aug 20, 2006)

Hey all been reading all the posts on the topic, I like the others ideas  "Train the way you will fight"  In the tree, camo up, and broadheads in.  I had the same problem, heck missing deer all the time from the tree.  On the ground they was dust.  But I hunt from the tree.  

To solve this mind game.  I got a Trophy Ridge Pendulm Sight.  I sighted it in on the ground locked in at 25 yrd.   Climbed a tree 30 feet, unlock the pin and any angle i shoot at distances 30yrs and below i was on the money every time.  Bend at the waist here there or not,  I was on the money every time.  Lock the pin down and I can shoot on the ground from 30 yard to 0 yrds with one sight pin.  

I dont shoot past 30yrd if i needed to i can just aim alittle high no big deal,  my mathews bow, shoots a single pin, from 0 to 30 yrds with same point of impact.  I actually starts to drop the arrow by 2 inches past 30.

Don't get caught up in the math, distance game.  Just get a pendulm sight or sight in from the tree.    Matthew


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## KansasBowhunter (Aug 22, 2006)

Jody Hawk said:
			
		

> I still disagree with this. If you are shooting at a target at a distance of 40 yards on the ground and shoot at the same target 25 feet up a tree, it only makes sense that gravity will effect that arrow somewhat because less gravity is pushing down on the tree shot arrow as it flys, no matter what form you are using.


The article is correct, Gravity only effects horizontal flight. This is what they taught us in sniper school for rifle, the same applies to an arrow. If you have your target 40 yards from the base of the tree and go up 25 feet you would use your 40 yard pin, even though the distance would show further away on a range finder from up in the tree. I will explain it the way they did in sniper school. 
If you were in a skyscraper 600 yards high and shooting at a target that was 100 yards away from the base of the skyscraper, you would set you scope for 100 yards because thats the horizontal distance you are shooting, even thought the bullet is traveling over 600 yards gravity is only effecting 100 yards of horizontal travel.


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## reylamb (Aug 22, 2006)

KansasBowhunter said:
			
		

> The article is correct, Gravity only effects horizontal flight. This is what they taught us in sniper school for rifle, the same applies to an arrow. If you have your target 40 yards from the base of the tree and go up 25 feet you would use your 40 yard pin, even though the distance would show further away on a range finder from up in the tree. I will explain it the way they did in sniper school.
> If you were in a skyscraper 600 yards high and shooting at a target that was 100 yards away from the base of the skyscraper, you would set you scope for 100 yards because thats the horizontal distance you are shooting, even thought the bullet is traveling over 600 yards gravity is only effecting 100 yards of horizontal travel.


The whole gravity has less effect is sort of a misnomer, although correct.  Objects are effected by gravity the same regardless if it is in the horizontal, vertical, or angular planes, gravity is a constant at 32ft/sec squared.  However, gravity is a function of time, not distance.  The physics states an object will, according to the math posted above, drop a certain distance for the amount of time which is time it is in the air, not path the arrow travels to get to the target.  If an object is 40 yards away from you on a horizontal path, it will take the arrow x seconds to cover that 40 yards regardless of how high the arrow is shot from.  While the arrow may travel 50 yards (extreme example), it still takes the same amount of time to cover that horizontal distance, and that is what effects the drop.

The physics gets pretty complicated if we start to consider drag, resistance, etc, but the short answer is, shoot for the horizontal distance to the target.


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## DaGris (Aug 22, 2006)

Keller Bow sight. no problem with tree stand height then. I will never shoot with another bow sight again.


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## EnglishRedNeck (Aug 22, 2006)

I guess I posted this on the wrong forum last week.... 

The principle is that when you laze the target from up in the stand you get a range that is actually greater than the true range due to the fact that you are elevated.
So if you range 30 yards and shoot using your 30 yd pin you shoot high.

I have been doing a little trigonometry using the pythagorean theorem.

It seems that since the average height many bow hunters go up a tree is around 20 ft or so the difference in the measured range and the true ballistic range are so close that they would require using the same pin anyway.







Since the pythagorean theory is that the hypotenuse (A-B)squared equals ACsquared + BCsquared..

Take this as an example. I am at point (A) up in my stand. (C) is the base of the tree and the deer is point (B). If I range the deer at 30 yards that means AB squared is 900.
If I am 18 feet (6 yds) in the air on my stand that means that ACsquared is 36. That means the true ballistic distance to the deer is BC squared which is 900-36 which is 864. The square root of 864 is 29.39yards.
This is a negligable difference.
Play with it with any likely bow hunting distances and I get the same thing.
Am I way off base here????


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## Just 1 More (Aug 22, 2006)

you're dead on


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## reylamb (Aug 23, 2006)

The math is dead on.......but not the reason most folks hit high out of a treestand.


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## EnglishRedNeck (Aug 23, 2006)

Fair enough. 
But.. I think that that is from dropping the arm not bending at the waist correct.?

So...if one uses the same pin for the yardage but does remember to bend at the waist and keep the 90* bow arm angle you should be deadnuts, no?!


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## reylamb (Aug 23, 2006)

EnglishRedNeck said:
			
		

> Fair enough.
> But.. I think that that is from dropping the arm not bending at the waist correct.?
> 
> So...if one uses the same pin for the yardage but does remember to bend at the waist and keep the 90* bow arm angle you should be deadnuts, no?!


Yes, if the 90* angle is maintained it will be deadnuts on.


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## base3448 (Aug 23, 2006)

Pendulum bow sight!!!!   Practice  Practice and more Practice..  Sight in from the tree.

So if you sight in from the tree,  correct!  Climb down and then back up and shoot at a deer 25 yards away you will hit high.  After just sighting in from the tree.????


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## jjones165 (Aug 23, 2006)

I was reading this thread and remembered something I had read in a book once.

The test was done by Freddie Troncoso, founder of Golden Key-Futura.  He tested an aluminum arrow at 250 fps at a 45 degree angle.  To shoot a 30 yd target he had to aim for 22 yds and a 60 yd target for 44 yds.  

Thought this might be helpful to understand how arrow trajectory and angles can cause high shots.

But most important...MAINTAIN T-FORM.  Bend at the waist.


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## Arrow3 (Aug 23, 2006)

This is way to confusing to me....Just practice enough to know how your bow is shooting and adjust accordingly...I find myself trying to perfect my methods as I practice...When the moment of truth arrives when a deer steps into my bow range, there is never any thought involved...It is all instinct to me...I hardly even notice when I draw my bow...Im more focused on the task at hand...I know what my bow will do...I just try to let it do its job...


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## Rackbuster (Aug 23, 2006)

*I agree*

The guys with the gravity theory are right.Just think about it like this,when shooting out of an elevated stand gravity is actually helping the arrow as it is pushing it down.When shooting off the ground it is fighting gravity all the way.I don't remember all that algebra and geometry I took in school 30 years ago but I do remember common sense.


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## EnglishRedNeck (Aug 24, 2006)

Rackbuster said:
			
		

> The guys with the gravity theory are right.Just think about it like this,when shooting out of an elevated stand gravity is actually helping the arrow as it is pushing it down.When shooting off the ground it is fighting gravity all the way.I don't remember all that algebra and geometry I took in school 30 years ago but I do remember common sense.



That's like the old optical illusion trick. You would think that that was correct, but it is not.
The laws of physics are complex but constant. They do not rely on "common sense" 
Any object or mass that is travelling on any plane whether it be horizontal, vertical or diagonal is subject to the same applied force of gravity. The force of gravity is a constant and does not change. The total horizontal distance travelled by the moving object and its mass are solely what determines the amount of drop (trajectory).
So the distance from the base of your tree and the target are the determining factors. The higher you are up in the air, say 100' up, would make a difference to your point of aim, but not because of gravity, but because, due to the pythagorean theory, that differential between the actual distance to the target from where you are and the true horizontal distance to that target is so much greater.


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## Rackbuster (Aug 24, 2006)

I never was too good in algebra or geometry but i did fool the teachers. It did sound good on paper though.





Alias = The Instigator


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## SE.GAcoondawg (Aug 30, 2006)

I was having the same problem, shooting from the stand everything was high .  I even went as far as getting an engineer involved, he was family.  After reading this post I made a point to bend at the waist per reylamb.  I got much better results, seeing is believing.  I am convinced that it is definately a form issue.  Thank you reylamb and others for this post, very helpful.


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## WildmanSC (Aug 31, 2006)

If you really want to make good use of your rangefinders, range the distance on a horizontal level, to trees around you and that will give you the distance a deer would be from the base of your tree, +/- the distance they are from a given tree you ranged.  Add to that practice out of your treestand using good form and the shooting high problems should disappear, except for the shots at alerted deer that duck the shot!   

Bill


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## flat foot (Aug 31, 2006)

Reylamb, I have found the same thing to be true for me too.


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## GeorgiaGlockMan (Sep 1, 2006)

*See the chart*

Alot of folks were having trouble putting the math together for this.

Here are charts that show the ranged distance compared to the horizontal distance for heights of 20-30 ft in a tree.

Just aim a couple of inches low and you should be fine.


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## EnglishRedNeck (Sep 1, 2006)

Great link Glock man!
As I had said before, the differences at 20-25' are very negligible.
Bending at the waist is more important.


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## Jdub (Sep 1, 2006)

Post I made a while back on another site

"Gravity will still exert the same force over the horizontal distance as it would shooting on the ground, it's the slope distance that gets you (what your range finder is reading from the stand to object.

Take an extreme case; say you're on a cliff shooting down at a mountain goat or something. You are 40 yards above the animal, the range finder gives you a slope distance of 52.2 yards away. You hold your 50 yard pin and sail one over it's back because gravity is only exerting itself across the horizontal distance, not the slope distance the range finder gave you. The horizontal distance in this scenario is only 33.5 yards, so hold your 30 a hair high and you'll be dead on.







It most cases your 7 yards up a tree and taking 30 yard shots which would only be a horizontal distance of 29.17 yards. At 20 yards it would really be 18.73 yards, 10 yards it would be 7.14."


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## MSU bowhunter (Sep 1, 2006)

Great thread!

I have never had a problem in the tree when shooting...I just aim and squeeze, the arrow is always right on (I practice exclusively on the ground).

Just lucky I guess.


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## gabowman (Sep 4, 2006)

EnglishRedNeck said:


> Fair enough.
> But.. I think that that is from dropping the arm not bending at the waist correct.?
> 
> So...if one uses the same pin for the yardage but does remember to bend at the waist and keep the 90* bow arm angle you should be deadnuts, no?!




Works for me!!


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## Rackbuster (Sep 9, 2006)

*JDub*

You the man.That makes sense as to why it would be high because really you are shooting a longer distance and would think you would have to aim a little high.

Some of the others may not agree but I do.


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