# the trinity



## emtguy (Mar 8, 2011)

But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 

How can people not believe in the trinity after reading this scripture?
It clearly sates stephen was full of the holy ghost(thats one) and he looked up into heaven and saw jesus(thats two) standing on the right hand of God(thats three).

whats yal take?


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## Lowjack (Mar 8, 2011)

Don't know how you arrived at that math result 1 + 1 is two, at least it was when I went to school.
"He saw Jesus Standing next to God" that's two not three.
Nor does it show the two are one.


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## farmasis (Mar 8, 2011)

?? I think he clearly stated 1+1+1=3.

"full of the holy ghost(thats one) and he looked up into heaven and saw jesus(thats two) standing on the right hand of God(thats three)."

Jesus and God being one is repeated throughout the NT.

To the orginal post, my take...trinity is undeniable from scripture.


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## emtguy (Mar 9, 2011)

farmasis said:


> ?? I think he clearly stated 1+1+1=3.
> 
> "full of the holy ghost(thats one) and he looked up into heaven and saw jesus(thats two) standing on the right hand of God(thats three)."
> 
> ...



yup. I added it again and still got 3.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 9, 2011)

So at the fulfilment of the ages, will we see the person of the Spirit standing next to Jesus and God, united as the "holy trinity", making up the "one God"?????


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## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> So at the fulfilment of the ages, will we see the person of the Spirit standing next to Jesus and God, united as the "holy trinity", making up the "one God"?????



Thank you.


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## thedeacon (Mar 9, 2011)

Come on peeps, you can't argue with someone who talks Hebrew.


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## emtguy (Mar 9, 2011)

can anyone tell me how stephen was full of the holy ghost, saw jesus AND god if there is not a trinity?

please explain how theres not a trinity, after reading this verse it seems to me it would be hard to doubt. 

I have to say, i dont know what you'll see at the end of the ages for sure BUT according to this verse i'll bet the answer is yes, you'll see all three...Holy spirit is like the wind, no ones ever seen it but you can sure feel it and see its effects all the time. 

You all have the floor.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 9, 2011)

emtguy said:


> can anyone tell me how stephen was full of the holy ghost, saw jesus AND god if there is not a trinity?
> 
> please explain how theres not a trinity, after reading this verse it seems to me it would be hard to doubt.
> 
> ...



Would you mind explaining, in your own words, without using the word "trinity", explain the relationship of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit?
Also, explain how it's possible for all three to be evidently seen by Stephen as being separate, individuals?

I'm not trying to trick you.  I actually believe as you do, I guess.  But it's good to hear it explained in detail rather than using the word "trinity".
Thanks.


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## jason4445 (Mar 10, 2011)

The Trinity is a principle that can be considered dogmatic - something that has been formally approved by a religious council but not really proven.  The phrase "The Trinity" was coined around 200AD by a church father called Tertullian.  The reason was those whom the early Christians tried to bring into the faith asked the Question, "Why do you worship three Gods?"  And it was a good quesstion.  You see the same thing happening in the early 1800's when Revelation was first started to be preached by the newly formed Christian Fundamentalist and people asked, "Why if we are true believers do we have to suffer like the others do?"  So another dogma was formed by a Presbyterian Preacher named Darby and that dogma today is called "The Rapture." These both ar Dogmas because they are affirmed by all or part of the Christian faith but never been totally proven by scripture nor is either one mentioned in the Bible.

From its coinage in around 200 AD the Trinity was a very heated argument in the different factions of the early church until the third general council of the Church at Ephesus, in 431, and at the final session .... the Catholic Church in East and West accepted what is known as the .... dogma on the Trinity. Something that is affirmed and can be generally believed but not proven according to the Theologians of the early church but it settled the question of why Christians worship three Gods so Christians could quit yapping about that and go on to fight about larger and better things.

The facts, therefore, prove that the doctrine of the Trinity does not appear in the Bible nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Old testament: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord'  The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies.... By the end of the 4th century the dogma of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since.

Also the concept of the Trinity was used in other religions way before Christianity. In Indian religion there is the Trinitarian group of Hindu in Brahma, Vishna, and Shiva; in Egyptian religion there is the group of Kneph, Phthas, and Osiris. In Phoenicia the trinity of gods were Ulomus, Ulosuros, and Eliun. In Greece they were Zeus, Poseidon, and Aidoneus.

In Rome they were Jupiter, Neptune, and Pluto. In Babylonia and Assyria they were Anos, lllinos, and Aos. Among Celtic nations they were called Kriosan, Biosena, and Siva, and in Germanic nations they were called Thor, Wodan, and Fricco.

Trinities of gods existed in other cultures as well, including, but not limited to, those of Siberia, Persia, Japan, Scandinavia, and Mexico.

We can see, therefore, that although the Trinity is characteristic of the Christian religion, it is by no means peculiar to it. 

So the Trinity although popular now is a concept made by man and I for one worship one God and that is God - then I also believe in his son Jesus who was not a God but a man whose powers and abilities came not from him but through him from God the father - just as Jesus said.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 10, 2011)

jason4445 said:


> The Trinity is a principle that can be considered dogmatic - something that has been formally approved by a religious council but not really proven.  The phrase "The Trinity" was coined around 200AD by a church father called Tertullian.  The reason was those whom the early Christians tried to bring into the faith asked the Question, "Why do you worship three Gods?"  And it was a good quesstion.  You see the same thing happening in the early 1800's when Revelation was first started to be preached by the newly formed Christian Fundamentalist and people asked, "Why if we are true believers do we have to suffer like the others do?"  So another dogma was formed by a Presbyterian Preacher named Darby and that dogma today is called "The Rapture." These both ar Dogmas because they are affirmed by all or part of the Christian faith but never been totally proven by scripture nor is either one mentioned in the Bible.
> 
> From its coinage in around 200 AD the Trinity was a very heated argument in the different factions of the early church until the third general council of the Church at Ephesus, in 431, and at the final session .... the Catholic Church in East and West accepted what is known as the .... dogma on the Trinity. Something that is affirmed and can be generally believed but not proven according to the Theologians of the early church but it settled the question of why Christians worship three Gods so Christians could quit yapping about that and go on to fight about larger and better things.
> 
> ...


Good post Jason, I have been looking for a book on "early church history" such as what you have posted here. So far, I have read alot of bits and pieces, searching through "early church Fathers" writings but would like to study with the pieces of the puzzle already put together. Any recomendations???


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 10, 2011)

emtguy said:


> can anyone tell me how stephen was full of the holy ghost, saw jesus AND god if there is not a trinity?
> 
> please explain how theres not a trinity, after reading this verse it seems to me it would be hard to doubt.
> 
> ...


 Have you seen my thread, in the apologetics section, What did Jesus claim"?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 10, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Good post Jason, I have been looking for a book on "early church history" such as what you have posted here. So far, I have read alot of bits and pieces, searching through "early church Fathers" writings but would like to study with the pieces of the puzzle already put together. Any recomendations???



I'd start with Eusebius' _History of the Church_.  You can get the abridged version in most bookstores.  

If you want something more recent, check out J.N.D. Kelly.


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## christianhunter (Mar 10, 2011)

I can explain it by not using Trinity,in the explanation.GOD The HOLY SPIRIT Indwells all Believers.GOD The FATHER is on HIS Throne in Heaven.GOD The SON is on the right hand of THE FATHER.THE COMFORTER did not descend,until THE SON Ascended.JESUS was filled with THE HOLY SPIRIT.JESUS prayed to THE FATHER.THE LORD JESUS has HIS GLORIFIED heavenly body.THE FATHER,and THE HOLY SPIRIT are SPIRIT.BY faith I accept they are different in the action of creation and salvation,and Being.I also accept the FACT there is ONE GOD.If you don't believe on THE SON,you will spend eternity with the creature(Satan).THE CREATOR is who HE has manifest HIMSELF to be in HIS Word,and by HIS prophets and Apostles.


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## emtguy (Mar 10, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Would you mind explaining, in your own words, without using the word "trinity", explain the relationship of God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit?
> Also, explain how it's possible for all three to be evidently seen by Stephen as being separate, individuals?
> 
> I'm not trying to trick you.  I actually believe as you do, I guess.  But it's good to hear it explained in detail rather than using the word "trinity".
> Thanks.



I dont know how it's possible for all 3 to be seen, i guess its like 2 men walking on water, bible just says it happened and i beleive it and thats all.
He actually only saw the two standing, the holy spirit was in him. According to scripture.

I think christian hunter explained it as good as anyone could.

The thing about the bible is there is so much stuff overlooked that could prove or disprove alot of "gospel" today and people just dont even know it. For instance TD Jakes preaches a oneness gospel to thousands a month and he's misleading them when all they have to do is ask him about this verse we are speaking of. It clearly states 3 and he preaches just one.

Same thing with charles stanley and eternal salvation. He is leading millions in the wrong direction. I have a tape of his radio broadcast where he read John 3:16 correctly and verbatum and preached on it and for the next hour or so he changed the "SHOULD not perish" to "WOULD not perish" and "COULD not perish" He never used the "SHOULD" again except the original reading...every dot, comma and "IF" in the bible is there for a reason. One comma or "IF" taken out of a chapter or verse can change the entire meaning of a scripture. 

Sorry to hi-jack my own thread, didnt mean to get off subject.


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## polkhunt (Mar 12, 2011)

I believe in a father,a son, and a holy spirit. I have always believed in the diety of Christ that he is of God but I have never believed he is God or that the two are one. A man would not pray until his sweat became drops of blood if he was praying to himself. I also take from the first 10 verses of Hebrews chapter 5 a very strong indication that Jesus is of God and no less than God but definately not 1 in the same.


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## Israel (Mar 12, 2011)

Carnal math and heavenly unity are not the same.


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## emtguy (Mar 13, 2011)

polkhunt said:


> I believe in a father,a son, and a holy spirit. I have always believed in the diety of Christ that he is of God but I have never believed he is God or that the two are one. A man would not pray until his sweat became drops of blood if he was praying to himself. I also take from the first 10 verses of Hebrews chapter 5 a very strong indication that Jesus is of God and no less than God but definately not 1 in the same.



If Jesus and God was one then jesus would not have had to ask "My God, My God why have thou forsaken me" either...He was clearly speaking to another entity.


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## gtparts (Mar 14, 2011)

I think we all have a fairly accurate and general understanding of the nature and physiology of a _man_ (human). 


But _spirit_, well, I'm not so sure about how some understand _spirit_. 

If we consider that God is _spirit_, then we need to understand that He has no limitations, except thinking and behaving contrary to His nature. He has chosen not to violate His very character. In this sense, He is unchanging, the same yesterday, today, and forever. With this in mind, it is not hard to grasp the concept that God can (and does) choose to express Himself fully and completely as Trinity without being fragmented, without being diminished. He can do this simultaneously, from eternity to eternity. 

Now, some refuse to believe that God has or exercises that ability because they think of God as a super man, which He is not or that in doing so, He would no longer be one God, which is equally untrue. 

The real problem is that some try to place their own limitations on God. Simply put, I am truly sorry for the one trying to put God in a box. What a futile and foolish way of looking at God.

Inevitably, that same person will look at Jesus and point out the qualities that they think make Him ungod-like. The interesting thing is that they would have you believe that because Jesus had a body and was subject to the frailties (being tired or hungry or experiencing pain or anger) of being human, He could not be 100% God. But Scripture explains how He chose to limit Himself (temporarily) by being born into this physical world as a man, taking leave from the glories of heaven for our sakes. 
And, the reality of all that is, we don't have any way to comprehend how that can be, no personal point of reference. We have no real knowledge of what it is to be God, we haven't "been there - done that". We have no experience with being "spirit, without a body".

In the final analysis, I have to say, we are better off just accepting God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit as presented in Scripture and as witnessed to by the Holy Spirit than trying to wrap our minds around it.

We have far more serious work to do.


Matthew 28 : 16-20

 Then the eleven disciples left for Galilee, going to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him—but some of them doubted!

 Jesus came and told his disciples, “I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Teach these new disciples to obey all the commands I have given you. And be sure of this: I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”


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## gtparts (Mar 14, 2011)

emtguy said:


> If Jesus and God was one then jesus would not have had to ask "My God, My God why have thou forsaken me" either...He was clearly speaking to another entity.



God is not just another entity. As long as you insist on placing such restrictive human limitations on God, you will struggle with the truth of the way God expresses Himself. He is Jesus. He is the Holy Spirit. He is the heavenly Father. There is no division, no discrepancy in God. There is only perfect unity.


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## formula1 (Mar 14, 2011)

*Re:*

This is a difficult thing to wrap your head around really.  The scripture John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." points to a unity of purpose, yet the Son appears to have a different role than the Father. 

Luke 10:22
All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

John 5:19
So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

John 5:20
For the Father loves the Son and shows him all that he himself is doing. 

You can see the absolute union and the absolute oneness between the Father and Son in this context.  The diety of Christ in my mind is also without question.  

Consider these scriptures:

Genesis1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. 

Isaiah 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?" Then I said, "Here am I! Send me."

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

I see God and Christ, Father and Son, completely joined in oneness before the world began.  I do not understand it fully, but yet I know it to be true in His revealed word.


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## gtparts (Mar 14, 2011)

formula1 said:


> This is a difficult thing to wrap your head around really.  The scripture John 10:30 "I and the Father are one." points to a unity of purpose, yet the Son appears to have a different role than the Father.
> 
> Luke 10:22
> All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, or who the Father is except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
> ...



Amen.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 14, 2011)

emtguy said:


> If Jesus and God was one then jesus would not have had to ask "My God, My God why have thou forsaken me" either...He was clearly speaking to another entity.



I don't believe anyone has actually answered your question yet.
They've answered it using the doctrine of trinity, but haven't answered it with scriptures.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 14, 2011)

Gtparts said:  "In the final analysis, I have to say, we are better off just accepting God, the Father, God, the Son, and God, the Holy Spirit as presented in Scripture and as witnessed to by the Holy Spirit than trying to wrap our minds around it."

I agree.  Those who teach the doctrine of the Trinity as being "God is Jesus and Jesus is God".  Do a horrible job truly explaining the nature of our Heavenly Father.  They said:  "If you don't believe Jesus is God then you don't have any faith at all".

Those comments only prove a person's inability to support their particular understanding of what it means for God to be Jesus and Jesus be God.

Mark 1
9In those days Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 
10Immediately coming up out of the water, Jesus saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him; 
11and a voice came out of the heavens: "You are My beloved Son, in You I am well-pleased." 
12Immediately the Spirit impelled Him to go out into the wilderness. 
13And He was in the wilderness forty days being tempted by Satan; and He was with the wild beasts, and the angels were ministering to Him. 

In these verses God, and His Spirit(Holy Spirit), and God's Son interact with each other as God uses each.
When you explain this scene you'll have to say more than "Jesus is God".  And the trinity will be more acceptable, if it should be.

*When Jesus Speaks, He only speaks the will of God.
*When the Holy Spirit moves, He only moves as directed by God.
No exceptions.  No possible errors.  They are purely of God.


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## gtparts (Mar 14, 2011)

emtguy said:


> If Jesus and God was one then jesus would not have had to ask "My God, My God why have thou forsaken me" either...He was clearly speaking to another entity.





Ronnie T said:


> I don't believe anyone has actually answered your question yet.
> They've answered it using the doctrine of trinity, but haven't answered it with scriptures.



Scripture doesn't offer an explanation of how this could be, that is, "God (the Father) forsaking God (the Son). Having been, as a man, in fellowship with the Father his whole earthly life, it is reasonable to understand that cry as Jesus expressing the pain and possible bewilderment at not having fellowship with the Father, something He had never experienced. To rely on God totally and find himself rejected for taking upon himself the sin (and punishment) of the entire world has got to be the low point in Jesus' life. Only the tears shed over Jerusalem a week earlier or maybe his prayer in Gethsemane before his arrest might come close to that troubling afternoon on the cross.


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## formula1 (Mar 14, 2011)

emtguy said:


> If Jesus and God was one then jesus would not have had to ask "My God, My God why have thou forsaken me" either...He was clearly speaking to another entity.



Actually, Jesus was quoting scripture on the cross, specifically Psalm 22.  I can only imagine that I would do such as well in that situation, given the hope that is in the word of God.

Further, at this moment in time, the flesh man that is Jesus, was in the middle of agony and total separation from God (or so it seemed), dying for our sins. He had to pay this price though as it was what He was born to do. Yet he was still in total unity with God, becoing obedient to His heavenly will even unto death.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

To me, the absolute obedience shows absolutely unity of purpose, though the Father and the Son shared different roles (actions) at this moment in time.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 14, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Scripture doesn't offer an explanation of how this could be, that is, "God (the Father) forsaking God (the Son). Having been, as a man, in fellowship with the Father his whole earthly life, it is reasonable to understand that cry as Jesus expressing the pain and possible bewilderment at not having fellowship with the Father, something He had never experienced. To rely on God totally and find himself rejected for taking upon himself the sin (and punishment) of the entire world has got to be the low point in Jesus' life. Only the tears shed over Jerusalem a week earlier or maybe his prayer in Gethsemane before his arrest might come close to that troubling afternoon on the cross.



The those whose only response is "Jesus is God" need to step back and only speak is scriptual terms.

There's no such thing as a doctrine that can't be explained.

The Jesus I know is God's son.  He is God's only begotten Son.  He is of God.  Born of God's own seed.  He came from God.
Jesus came from God into this physical world.
In Jesus, we see all the attributes of God.  Jesus said He came only to do God's will and nothing else.  So Jesus never sinned.
While on earth, Jesus needed God.  Jesus often pleaded with God through prayer.  Jesus spoke to God and God spoke to Jesus.

After Jesus' death and resurrection Jesus asked His father to glorify Him now as He was glorified prior to coming to earth.  Jesus was ready to go back into the presents of God from where He had come.

And now, Jesus sits beside His father in heaven.  And He reigns in Heaven as the Savior of the world.  And He intersedes on our behalf.  And His shed blood has paid the price that had to be paid to God for sins upon this earth.

And it has all occurred because God loves us more than we'll ever fatham.

Now, can we really explain it all by just saying Jesus is God?  Not for me they can't.  And not for an unbeliever they can't.


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## emtguy (Mar 14, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The those whose only response is "Jesus is God" need to step back and only speak is scriptual terms.
> 
> There's no such thing as a doctrine that can't be explained.
> 
> ...



what he said.


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## gtparts (Mar 15, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> The those whose only response is "Jesus is God" need to step back and only speak is scriptual terms.
> 
> There's no such thing as a doctrine that can't be explained.
> 
> ...



I agree. Perhaps I should have elaborated on specifically why I said, 





> Scripture doesn't offer an explanation of how this could be, that is, "God (the Father) forsaking God (the Son).



On the one hand, the Christian is confronted and encouraged concerning the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Jesus even spends time assuring us of the certain hope of participating in that unity.

 Balance that against the fact that Jesus did not suggest that God had forsaken Him, but questioned why the Father had, indeed, done so, leaving Him (Jesus) to bear the unbearable, alone. Where is the unity in that?

How can the human mind reconcile these two positions? I can not, but I also know that both are true. I believe this to be one of the mysteries that demands faith, for nothing else will allow us to accept both as true. Reason will not suffice. Reason is the wedge that increases the dramatic difference and distance between these two realities. Yet, I know that there is no discrepancy. I just have to trust God. Apparently, it is not important for me to fully comprehend... and I just have to get comfortable with it being true, based on faith.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 15, 2011)

I agree GT.
Quite often, in my mind, I toss around the connection that God and Jesus have.
"Jesus is God, no wait, God is Jesus, no, everything within Jesus is God.  No, Jesus only speaks as God would speak, what Jesus says, God says.  Jesus hears as God hears. etc.

You're correct, I grasp what I can and have full faith in what I cannot.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 16, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree GT.
> Quite often, in my mind, I toss around the connection that God and Jesus have.
> "Jesus is God, no wait, God is Jesus, no, everything within Jesus is God.  No, Jesus only speaks as God would speak, what Jesus says, God says.  Jesus hears as God hears. etc.
> 
> You're correct, I grasp what I can and have full faith in what I cannot.


 As a believer of Jesus as the Son of God, not God the Son, I'm thankful I don't have your problem. My faith is so simple, even for a child. Our faith was never meant to be focused on whether or not he is God.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

emtguy said:


> But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
> 
> How can people not believe in the trinity after reading this scripture?
> It clearly sates stephen was full of the holy ghost(thats one) and he looked up into heaven and saw jesus(thats two) standing on the right hand of God(thats three).
> ...



I think there is a spiritual pivot to an understanding here, namely the answer to "Who is God?" The pivot is perhaps this and in this is all the faith one needs, period:

John 4:24
God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

My paraphrase: God is a Spirit: and they that have faith in Him must have faith with this spirit and in this truth.

Therefore the spirit of the Father ( Holy Ghost) can be in a desciple who is now a spiritual seer.  Spirit can now be appreciated or viewed by the seer as being in Jesus as a Rabbi and a saviour and who stands against the backdrop of God the origin of spirit and of life itself...


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## Ronnie T (Mar 16, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> As a believer of Jesus as the Son of God, not God the Son, I'm thankful I don't have your problem. My faith is so simple, even for a child. Our faith was never meant to be focused on whether or not he is God.



I appreciate your comments.


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## Lowjack (Mar 16, 2011)

farmasis said:


> ?? I think he clearly stated 1+1+1=3.
> 
> "full of the holy ghost(thats one) and he looked up into heaven and saw jesus(thats two) standing on the right hand of God(thats three)."
> 
> ...



The Verse Clearly shows 1+1Father and Son, not 1+1+1 , why is that ? Because the Father is the Holy Spirit, it shows the son next to him because the Son is Body.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 16, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> The Verse Clearly shows 1+1Father and Son, not 1+1+1 , why is that ? Because the Father is the Holy Spirit, it shows the son next to him because the Son is Body.



How many angels on the head of a needle? There are definetely three here, not two as you say. Why? Because the desciple was full of the  1. Holy Ghost, which permitted him to see the 2. Father and the  3. Son in the opened heavens. Therefore 1+1+1 make trois. ( The Holy Ghost that the desciple was full of does not mean he was full of the Father.)


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## Lowjack (Mar 17, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> How many angels on the head of a needle? There are definetely three here, not two as you say. Why? Because the desciple was full of the  1. Holy Ghost, which permitted him to see the 2. Father and the  3. Son in the opened heavens. Therefore 1+1+1 make trois. ( The Holy Ghost that the desciple was full of does not mean he was full of the Father.)



Yes it does, You can only see the Father when he allows you to se him.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 17, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Yes it does, You can only see the Father when he allows you to se him.



Maybe you are like Obama Lowjack. You are not totally in sink with creed? Doesn't matter I'd vote for you just the same...


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## Lowjack (Mar 17, 2011)

I don't follow man's creeds just the Word.

Reason this out
Who is Yeshua's Father ?
Who is the Spirit of Christ ?
If G-d is a Spirit and is Holy who is the Holy Spirit ?

If the Holy Spirit is the creator , who is G-d ?


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## Lowjack (Mar 17, 2011)

THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
In the first two quotes, God refers to the Holy Spirit in the first person pronoun. The rest of the quotes are from Jesus, Paul and Peter quoting the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God.

1. The Lord God said, "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:27). 

2. "And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it, and performed it, saith the Lord" (Ezekial 37:14).

3. Jesus described the Holy Spirit in John 4:24: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him spirit and in truth." 

4. Paul in I Corinthians 12:6 quotes: "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all." 

5. Peter said in Acts 5:3.4: "Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost ... thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God." 


THE WORK OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
A. THE HOLY SPIRIT CREATES

The Spirit of God created many wonderful things, the earth and the heavens and gave life to human beings. 

In the beginning of creation, the "Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2).

"Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created:" (Psalm 104:30). 

"By his spirit he hath garnished the heavens" (Job 26:13).

"The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life" (Job 33:4).

B. THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES POWER TO PEOPLE

God gave power to different people like Joseph, Joshua, Bezalel, Samson and Daniel the ability to rule, leadership, knowledge, craftsmanship, strength and interpretation of dreams.

God's Spirit gave Joseph the ability to rule (Genesis 41:38-41).

Joshua was given leadership ability to lead the Israelites into the land of Canaan (Num 27:18-20; Deu 34:9).

God enabled seventy elders to rule over Israel (Num 11:16-17). 

He gave knowledge and craftmanship to Bezalel and others (Ex 31:2-6; 35:30-31).

God gave Samson tremendous strength (Jud 14:6,19; 15:14; 16:28-30).

Daniel was given the ability to interpret the dreams of Nebuchadnezer (Dan 4:8-9,18; 5:14; cf 1:17-20). 


C. THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES INSTRUCTION

The Holy Spirit gives Warning and Prophecy from the Prophets (Nehemiah 9:30; Zechariah 7:12; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Peter 1:21).

The Spirit of the Lord made David prophesy ( 1 Samuel 16:13; 2 Samuel 23:2).

God's spirit moved Zecharish to warn king Joash (2 Chronicles 24:20-22).. Micaiah predicted that king Ahab would die in the battlefield (1 Kings 22: 13-25. 

God's spirit brought Ezekiel to speak about the captivity in Chaldea (Ezekiel 11:22-25).

The Spirit of the Lord made Micah declare the transgression of Israel (Micah 3:8). 






GOD'S OTHER MANIFESTATION: JESUS CHRIST 
GOD IN HUMAN FORM

Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh in John 1:1, 14. 

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (v. 14)And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth,..."

It is clearly seen in Isaiah 9:6 that Jesus is the Son and called Wonderful Counsellor, The Mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. The Son and Father are blended into one.

JESUS is GOD of the Old Testament

1. God is the Creator (Gen 1:1; Neh 9:5; Isa 42:5). Jesus is the Creator (Jn 1:1-3; Col 1:16; Heb 1:10).

2. God is the Savior (Isa 43:11; Hos 13:4). Jesus is the Savior (Lk 2:11; Acts 4:12; Jude 24).

3. God is King (Ps 10:16; 96:10). Jesus is King (Rev 11:15).

4. God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords (Deu 10:17; Dan 2:47). Jesus is the Lord of lords (Rev 17:14; 19:16).

5. God is the Lord of life (Deu 32:39; Jer 38:16). Jesus is the Lord of life (Jn 1:4; 11:25; 14:6).

6. God is the first and the last (Isa 44:6; 48:12). Jesus is the first and the last (Rev 1:17; 22:13).


THE SPIRIT of JESUS in the NEW TESTAMENT
God gives the Spirit of God into the hearts of man and leads, guides and helps them to obey the commandments of God.

1. "And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father" (Gal. 4:6).

2. "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty" (2 Co 3:17).

3. In the incident of the Ethiopian eunuch and Philip (Acts 8:26-29), the Spirit said unto Philip, "Go near and join thyself to this chariot" (v.29) ... "And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the the Lord caught away Philip" (v.39).

4. The disciples were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia (Acts 16:6).

5. "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his" (Rom 8:8,9).

The Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit (Ghost) and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are the same, for the Holy Spirit is God and is also Jesus Christ, our Saviour.

WIKIPEDIA
 The Trinity is a Christian doctrine, stating that God exists as three persons, or in the Greek hypostases, but is one being.[1][2] The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit. Since beginning of the third century[3] the doctrine of the Trinity has been stated as "that the one God exists in three Persons and one substance, Father, Son and Holy Spirit".[4]Trinitarianism, belief in the Trinity, is a mark of Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy, Roman Catholicism and all the mainstream traditions arising from the Protestant Reformation, such as Anglicanism, Lutheranism and Presbyterianism; and the Trinity has been described as "the central dogma of Christian theology".[4]

Opposing nontrinitarian positions held by some groups include Binitarianism (two /persons/aspects), Unitarianism onedeity/person/aspect), the Oness belief held by certain Pentecostal groups, Modalism, and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' view of the Godhead as three separate beings are one in purpose rather than essence.

IS "TRINITY" BIBLICALLY CORRECT? NO
No such word as "Trinity" exists in the whole Bible, but is a word coined in the third century by theologians. The Old Testament insists there is only one God and no one else. The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-6) tells us in the first three commandments, "I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the house of bondage. (3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

How can Christians who believe in the One True God classify "God" as a person, when throughout the Bible, He is said to be "Spirit"? How can the Spirit of God be named as a "Person" when He is called the "Spirit of the Lord?" How can man bring low the status of God to that of MAN? Man is not eternal. Man has earthly feelings and thoughts. God is righteous, self-existent and does not consult with other men for decisions. God is a Spirit, the Holy Spirit is "His Power Force" and Jesus Christ is GOD's HUMAN FORM." There is only ONE GOD! 

ONE TRUE GOD
God, the Holy Spirit (power force), and Jesus Christ (human form) are the One true God, and not three persons in One as claimed by the Trinitarians.

"I and my Father are one" (John 10:30).

"There is none other God but one" (1 Corinthians 8:4).

"Unto thee it was shewed, that the Lord he is God; there is none else beside him" (Deu 4:35; 6:4.

"Neither is there any God beside thee" (2 Sam 7:22)

"Thou art God alone" (Ps 86:10).

"Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord" (Mark 12:29).

"there is none other God but one" (1 Cor 8:4).

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim 2:5).


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## centerpin fan (Mar 17, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> THE HOLY SPIRIT AS GOD IN THE OLD TESTAMENT
> In the first two quotes, God refers to the Holy Spirit in the first person pronoun. The rest of the quotes are from Jesus, Paul and Peter quoting the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God.
> 
> 1. The Lord God said, "And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them" (Ezekiel 36:27).
> ...




This is a C&P job taken from here:

http://hubpages.com/hub/godsmanifestationsholyspiritjesuschrist

What makes it authoritative?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 17, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> No such word as "Trinity" exists in the whole Bible, but is a word coined in the third century by theologians.



Those "theologians" were godly men who wrote the Nicene Creed, the first line of which reads:

"We believe in one God ..."


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## Lowjack (Mar 17, 2011)

So where the Prophets Beginning With Moses and God told them with his own mouth , "there is only One God, There wasn't another God before him nor will there be one after".
Isaiah 43


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## christianhunter (Mar 18, 2011)

> Paul in I Corinthians 12:6 quotes: "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."
> 
> I think all Christians filled with THE SPIRIT,would heartily agree that THE FATHER,SON,and HOLY SPIRIT are One and the Same.There is never an argument that I can see,only a play on words,from others who doubt.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 18, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> I think all Christians filled with THE SPIRIT,would heartily agree that THE FATHER,SON,and HOLY SPIRIT are One and the Same.



No, they heartily agreed that They were not the same (but were of the same substance.)  That's what Nicea was all about.  They are three distinct Persons.

That doctrine is almost universally accepted among Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant believers.


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## christianhunter (Mar 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> No, they heartily agreed that They were not the same (but were of the same substance.)  That's what Nicea was all about.  They are three distinct Persons.
> 
> That doctrine is almost universally accepted among Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant believers.



No emoticon,we are saying the same thing Brother,but still a play on words.Possibly a misunderstanding of my post.There is only One GOD,in THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.I thought I was plain.Sorry!


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## centerpin fan (Mar 18, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> No emoticon,we are saying the same thing Brother,but still a play on words.Possibly a misunderstanding of my post.There is only One GOD,in THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.I thought I was plain.Sorry!



Cool.


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## Lowjack (Mar 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> No, they heartily agreed that They were not the same (but were of the same substance.)  That's what Nicea was all about.  They are three distinct Persons.
> 
> That doctrine is almost universally accepted among Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant believers.



Then They are Cults

http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm


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## christianhunter (Mar 18, 2011)

There was once a magazine called the "Plain Truth",I don't know if it is still around or not.Upon reading it,one may think it was a "Mainstream" Christian magazine.The Editor finally made the mistake of refering to THE HOLY SPIRIT,as "it" and or a "power" or "force",not who HE is, GOD.Cults can be born,or at least a cult like manner,when listening to the wisdom of man.The three Attributes of GOD if you will,are distinct,yet THE Same GOD.THE HOLY SPIRIT is indwelling in each born again Believer.THE FATHER is in Heaven,with THE SON at HIS right Hand.Can I explain how each was in a different place at the same time, when THE LORD was being Baptized by John The Baptist...No!

I give my eternal soul to this belief,and fact.If you do not call on The Name of THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT does not fill your heart,you will never spend eternity with THE FATHER.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 19, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Then They are Cults
> 
> http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm



Why?
If they aren't distinct, Jesus could not have prayed to His Father.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 19, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> There was once a magazine called the "Plain Truth",I don't know if it is still around or not.Upon reading it,one may think it was a "Mainstream" Christian magazine.The Editor finally made the mistake of refering to THE HOLY SPIRIT,as "it" and or a "power" or "force",not who HE is, GOD.Cults can be born,or at least a cult like manner,when listening to the wisdom of man.The three Attributes of GOD if you will,are distinct,yet THE Same GOD.THE HOLY SPIRIT is indwelling in each born again Believer.THE FATHER is in Heaven,with THE SON at HIS right Hand.Can I explain how each was in a different place at the same time, when THE LORD was being Baptized by John The Baptist...No!
> 
> I give my eternal soul to this belief,and fact.If you do not call on The Name of THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT does not fill your heart,you will never spend eternity with THE FATHER.



Ya'll better be careful calling Christians a cult just because they don't understand the "Trinity".  There's plenty of misunderstanding to go around.
Who of us can totally understand it?  I say none of us can.  But it certainly interest us and we want so badly to comprehend all things of God.
One day we all will.
A person doesn't have to grasp it all in order to trust in God and believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Then They are Cults
> 
> http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm



Hello Lowjack, Are you oneness, I did not realize, I thought you were a Messianic Jew, but some of those believe in the trinity?? I just like to have an idea what others believe so I can understand as I ponder their post. Would you clarifying


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## gordon 2 (Mar 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Ya'll better be careful calling Christians a cult just because they don't understand the "Trinity".  There's plenty of misunderstanding to go around.
> Who of us can totally understand it?  I say none of us can.  But it certainly interest us and we want so badly to comprehend all things of God.
> One day we all will.
> A person doesn't have to grasp it all in order to trust in God and believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior.



Just a note: As a young man if my pastor or priest or a monk had said it is a mystery, we cannot totally understand I would have judged them as "cop outs" and I would set my self to study and prayer.

Today I just set myself to study and prayer.-- As for the rest, I studied grace since then.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 19, 2011)

This is how I checked what the trinity was all about a long time ago. 

1. These three aspects of the Devine are present in the christian narrative.

2. Aspect is a synonym of person in the french language ( my first language) which has its roots in all the gobeligoop languages of the mediteranian. The folk who agreed on creeds about how to talk about God in the light of the Good News were gobeligoop speakers.

3. My understanding of John is that in the beginning as far a man is concerned there was the Word and the Word was with God and was God. I understand from this that the minute that language permitted reasoning and pointed communication, man was created as a vessel of the Devine and so the Divine lives with man. This was, is and will be as long as there is mankind.  The first man was Adam according to our spiritual narative, Jesus is the second Adam according to our narrative.  So this is our Jesus a man who is so indwelled by the Devine or God than no only his words convey the Holy but also and especially his flesh.

4. The Christian narrative seperates God as Father and Holyspirit.

Perfect? No...but works for moi.


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## christianhunter (Mar 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Ya'll better be careful calling Christians a cult just because they don't understand the "Trinity".  There's plenty of misunderstanding to go around.
> Who of us can totally understand it?  I say none of us can.  But it certainly interest us and we want so badly to comprehend all things of God.
> One day we all will.
> A person doesn't have to grasp it all in order to trust in God and believe in Christ as their Lord and Savior.



No Brother,I didn't call or refer to anyone as a cult.I implied that that is how cults are formed.Jehovas Witness,and Mormons prime examples.I do not understand some Scripture,but I accept it by Faith.I think you read me wrong Brother Ronnie.I would never call a professing Christian a cult member,or degrade them in any way.Sorry for the confusion.


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Lowjack, Are you oneness, I did not realize, I thought you were a Messianic Jew, but some of those believe in the trinity?? I just like to have an idea what others believe so I can understand as I ponder their post. Would you clarifying



I'm A Jew Foremost and we were taught "ONE GOD" not 3 or 6.
Never being to a"oneness church in my life.
LOL


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## Lowjack (Mar 19, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Why?
> If they aren't distinct, Jesus could not have prayed to His Father.



Do you believe in the Humanity Of Christ ?
Understand Yeshua was a Unique person there is no other being created or non created like him.
He was 100 % Human and suffered the same Weaknesses as a man, so in weakness he prayed to Abba .
Abba Was not too far not to hear him but in him.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2011)

Hey guys, The trinity doctrine needs to be word specific. I debate elsewhere, usually using  a context format. But most of the guys, non trin debaters are kind of like the atheist, if you don't word it properly, they will have you for lunch. It is hard to explain how. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your gonna claim to be trinitarian, you need to study exactly what an orthodox trinitarian believes. I know trinitarian preachers who claim God's name is Jesus, that's "oneness" doctrine, a misrepresentation of the trinity.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 19, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> I'm A Jew Foremost and we were taught "ONE GOD" not 3 or 6.
> Never being to a"oneness church in my life.
> LOL


OK, that's what I thought, your link came from a "oneness" site, bottom left. That had me confused. The "oneness" doctrine believes Jesus is God but does not believe in a triune God. Thanks for clearing that up


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## Ronnie T (Mar 19, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey guys, The trinity doctrine needs to be word specific. I debate elsewhere, usually using  a context format. But most of the guys, non trin debaters are kind of like the atheist, if you don't word it properly, they will have you for lunch. It is hard to explain how. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if your gonna claim to be trinitarian, you need to study exactly what an orthodox trinitarian believes. I know trinitarian preachers who claim God's name is Jesus, that's "oneness" doctrine, a misrepresentation of the trinity.



I suspect you are totally right.
I imagine we all completely agree on all the issues of God as provided to us in the scriptures.
But we often describe it in such different ways that it, at least for me, can be difficult to understand someone else's view.  We don't all speak the same language when it comes to issue like this.


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## farmasis (Mar 20, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> I'm A Jew Foremost and we were taught "ONE GOD" not 3 or 6.
> Never being to a"oneness church in my life.
> LOL


 
I respect your Jewness..If that is a word..lol..but, you were probably taught that Jesus was not the Messiah also. Most Protestants also believe in one God...not 3.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 20, 2011)

farmasis said:


> I respect your Jewness..If that is a word..lol..but, you were probably taught that Jesus was not the Messiah also. Most Protestants also believe in one God...not 3.


Hey farmasis, I noticed your signature,[he was a mighty hunter before the Lord] the end result of Nimrod is that God opposed him. He was in opposition to God. Credited as "mighty" and 'his kingdom". Everything he built Babylon, Assyria, etc. All negative cities in the bible. God took everything he built and gave it to his chosen. This has deep spiritual meaning


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## christianhunter (Mar 20, 2011)

The Scriptures testify of THE FATHER.The Scrirtures testify of THE HOLY SPIRIT.The Scriptures testify of THE LORD JESUS.That is simply enough for me.THE LORD knows our minds are finite.I think as long as you ask THE LORD JESUS to save your soul.As long as you pray to THE FATHER,and as long as you do not Blaspheme THE HOLY SPIRIT.I think you will make it to Paradise.I will say this with no apology.If you take away from THE LORD JESUS,as being "only" THE SON,and not GOD in the flesh.It may be very possible,you are walking on dangerous ground.Scripture backs this up,with NO room for error!


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## farmasis (Mar 21, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hey farmasis, I noticed your signature,[he was a mighty hunter before the Lord] the end result of Nimrod is that God opposed him. He was in opposition to God. Credited as "mighty" and 'his kingdom". Everything he built Babylon, Assyria, etc. All negative cities in the bible. God took everything he built and gave it to his chosen. This has deep spiritual meaning


 
He didn't finish well..but what do we expect from someone named Nimrod..lol

What deep spiritual meaning?


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2011)

farmasis said:


> I respect your Jewness..If that is a word..lol..but, you were probably taught that Jesus was not the Messiah also. Most Protestants also believe in one God...not 3.



I still believe Jesus is not the Messiah LOL

The Messiah's name is Yeshua.


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## Lowjack (Mar 21, 2011)

farmasis said:


> I respect your Jewness..If that is a word..lol..but, you were probably taught that Jesus was not the Messiah also. Most Protestants also believe in one God...not 3.



When the Word "DISTINCT" is added it makes it 3 gods.
There is only distinction in the flesh Body of God.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 21, 2011)

farmasis said:


> He didn't finish well..but what do we expect from someone named Nimrod..lol
> 
> What deep spiritual meaning?


Short version of the long answer, God *gives* "the promised land". Sorry for a short answer but I don't want to derail the thread. We could start a thread if you like


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## centerpin fan (Mar 21, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> When the Word "DISTINCT" is added it makes it 3 gods.



No trinitarian believes in three gods.


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## emtguy (Mar 21, 2011)

Lowjack, back to my original post. Stephen was full of the Holy spirit, looked up and saw Jesus STANDING next to God.

That is 3 entitys, not one.

I see it like this in my mind...God is the brain, Jesus the organs and limbs and the holy spirit is the blood...One " body" but 3 parts that make it work.

Do you now the original hebrew text? Not being a smart pants, i would like to know the translation.


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## farmasis (Mar 22, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> I still believe Jesus is not the Messiah LOL
> 
> The Messiah's name is Yeshua.


 
Touche'


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## Lowjack (Mar 22, 2011)

emtguy said:


> Lowjack, back to my original post. Stephen was full of the Holy spirit, looked up and saw Jesus STANDING next to God.
> 
> That is 3 entitys, not one.
> 
> ...



Explain then this ?
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.—1 TIMOTHY 3:16.

How many do you see there and what is that saying ?


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## christianhunter (Mar 23, 2011)

I'm not going to cut and paste,nor type it.If you own a Bible the explanation is in John chapters 14-17.

There is ONE GOD,in three persons.THE FATHER of Whom THE SON Glorifies,and THE SPIRIT of TRUTH,THE COMFORTER, THE HOLY SPIRIT Whom Glorifies THE SON.

THE LORD JESUS says that HE and THE FATHER will abide with us.HE also says that THE COMFORTER will abide with us.HE goes on to explain that THE COMFORTER cannot come until HE ascends.This cannot be disputed.THE LORD HIMSELF describes each action of THE FATHER,HIMSELF,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.


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## Lowjack (Mar 23, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> I'm not going to cut and paste,nor type it.If you own a Bible the explanation is in John chapters 14-17.
> 
> There is ONE GOD,in three persons.THE FATHER of Whom THE SON Glorifies,and THE SPIRIT of TRUTH,THE COMFORTER, THE HOLY SPIRIT Whom Glorifies THE SON.
> 
> THE LORD JESUS says that HE and THE FATHER will abide with us.HE also says that THE COMFORTER will abide with us.HE goes on to explain that THE COMFORTER cannot come until HE ascends.This cannot be disputed.THE LORD HIMSELF describes each action of THE FATHER,HIMSELF,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.



Who is Yeshua's Father ?

The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God Luke 1;35
So the Holy Spirit is Yeshua's Father.

The Holy Spirt is called the Most High ,The Father is the Most High ,there is no other.

"God is a Spirit and those who seek him must seek him in the Spirit" so if God is a Spirit does he have a Spirit ?
Or is he The Spirit who is the Most uphigh God ? If he is A Spirit and he is Holy ,doesn't that make him the Holy Spirit ?


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## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Who is Yeshua's Father ?
> 
> The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God Luke 1;35
> So the Holy Spirit is Yeshua's Father.
> ...



An absolute yes to everything you have said.
My answer is YESHUA is at The Right hand of THE FATHER.YESHUA is in HIS Glorified Body.THE HOLY SPIRIT indwells ALL Believers.HE Descended,when THE SON Ascended.There is ONE GOD,in THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.


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## Lowjack (Mar 24, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> An absolute yes to everything you have said.
> My answer is YESHUA is at The Right hand of THE FATHER.YESHUA is in HIS Glorified Body.THE HOLY SPIRIT indwells ALL Believers.HE Descended,when THE SON Ascended.There is ONE GOD,in THE FATHER,THE SON,and THE HOLY SPIRIT.



I believe the Holy Spirit was here all the time, as God is omniscient, I believe we make all sorts of Doctrines on words that have being transliterated, like when the Holy Spirit descended upon Yeshua, does that mean he descended from heaven ? or he was already here and manifested Himself upon Yeshua as a testimony to who the messiah was, IMO


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## christianhunter (Mar 24, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> I believe the Holy Spirit was here all the time, as God is omniscient, I believe we make all sorts of Doctrines on words that have being transliterated, like when the Holy Spirit descended upon Yeshua, does that mean he descended from heaven ? or he was already here and manifested Himself upon Yeshua as a testimony to who the messiah was, IMO



Again you are right on the money the way I comprehend it.The Holy Spirit was the ONE above the waters at Creation.He was manifest like a dove,as you said, I Believe as a GUIDE to show us who THE SON was.THE FATHER spoke,THE HOLY SPIRIT went to THE SON,and THE SON was Baptized to fulfill all Righteousness.


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## farmasis (Mar 24, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Explain then this ?
> And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness, God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.—1 TIMOTHY 3:16.
> 
> How many do you see there and what is that saying ?


 
Just two. Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

It is saying that Jesus came to earth from heaven as a man. He was justified as a man by the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirt descended on Jesus after his baptism and remained with Jesus from that point on (see John 1:33-34) which, by the way, was prophesied by Isaiah (42:1-4)


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## farmasis (Mar 24, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> I believe the Holy Spirit was here all the time, as God is omniscient, I believe we make all sorts of Doctrines on words that have being transliterated, like when the Holy Spirit descended upon Yeshua, does that mean he descended from heaven ? or he was already here and manifested Himself upon Yeshua as a testimony to who the messiah was, IMO


 
Would that make Jesus a liar?

*<SUP>26</SUP>* But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14)

*<SUP>26</SUP>* “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (John 15)

*<SUP>7</SUP>* Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26731 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:.....*<SUP>13</SUP>* However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; (John 16)


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## Ronnie T (Mar 24, 2011)

Luke 1:41-42 (New American Standard Bible)

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; 
and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 
And she cried out with a loud voice and said, 
"Blessed are you among women, 
and blessed is the fruit of your womb!


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## farmasis (Mar 24, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Who is Yeshua's Father ?
> 
> The angel answered, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God Luke 1;35
> So the Holy Spirit is Yeshua's Father.


 
What??? Where does the Bible ever say the Holy Spirit is Jesus' father?



> "God is a Spirit and those who seek him must seek him in the Spirit" so if God is a Spirit does he have a Spirit ?
> Or is he The Spirit who is the Most uphigh God ? If he is A Spirit and he is Holy ,doesn't that make him the Holy Spirit ?


 
Has anyone said the Holy Spirit is not God?

Remember this formula when talking with those who believe scripture reveals God as a trinity. It will save you from making pointless points.

God=the Father
God=the Son
God= the Holy Spirit

Godhead= the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

They are 3 seperate, equally God, coexistant, and eternal manifestations of God.


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## farmasis (Mar 24, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Luke 1:41-42 (New American Standard Bible)
> 
> When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb;
> and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
> ...


 

What is your point?

I didn't say the Holy Spirit has never been here. There are many accounts of the Holy Spirit on earth. He was even here when it was being formed...from the second verse of the Bible he has been to the earth. The difference is that when he was sent here by Jesus he would stay and dwell here until removed prior to the Great Tribulation.

I believe Jesus has been to the earth prior to what we read in the NT. I feel strongly Jesus was one of the three Abraham saw on the way to destroy Sodom. It is very possible that the 'angel' was Jesus who wrested with Jacob. The commander of the army of the Lord that Joshua met was Jesus. So, just as Jesus came to earth, he also had a time to dwell on earth. There is biblical evidence of all three of those being Jesus.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 24, 2011)

I wasn't disagreeing with you.  I just posted it so it would be here.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2011)

What??? Where does the Bible ever say the Holy Spirit is Jesus' father?
"The Power Of The Holy Spirit Shall come upon you and you will conceive"......... 


Has anyone said the Holy Spirit is not God?

Remember this formula when talking with those who believe scripture reveals God as a trinity. It will save you from making pointless points.

God=the Father
God=the Son
God= the Holy Spirit

That is not found in the Bible anywhere 
Godhead= the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Godhead= the Father and functioning in many Capacities and Offices Dwelling in the Glorified Body Of Yeshua
They are 3 seperate, equally God, coexistant, and eternal manifestations of God.[/QUOTE]

They are not separate in anyways shape or form
Show one verse that says that ?????????

"Shema Israel as God taught to moses to pray, Hear ye Israel Our Lord Is one God"


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 25, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Luke 1:41-42 (New American Standard Bible)
> 
> When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb;
> and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
> ...


I suspect that there is a difference here. The Spirit was evident all throughout the biblical events but maybe just not in the same effect because  John 7:39 says that the Spirit had not been given yet.


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## gordon 2 (Mar 25, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I suspect that there is a difference here. The Spirit was evident all throughout the biblical events but maybe just not in the same effect because  John 7:39 says that the Spirit had not been given yet.



You are correct.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 25, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I suspect that there is a difference here. The Spirit was evident all throughout the biblical events but maybe just not in the same effect because  John 7:39 says that the Spirit had not been given yet.



Certainly.


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## gtparts (Mar 25, 2011)

It is not the difficult thing some have made of this matter.
Throughout the OT, God "tabernacled" among men. He did so in the Garden, in the Sinai, and in the Temple. When the Christ was born, God (in flesh) dwelt among men. 

When Christ ascended, God shifted His operational tactics to a more intimate style - indwelling the redeemed, as the Holy Spirit. 

Many times in the past, some have brought up the Holy Spirit's operation prior to Christ's ascension. Careful examination will reveal that during that time, the Holy Spirit filled and refilled specific individuals for specific purposes, but did not take up full time residence. Christ, being God in flesh, is a uniquely different matter altogether.


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## farmasis (Mar 25, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> What??? Where does the Bible ever say the Holy Spirit is Jesus' father?
> "The Power Of The Holy Spirit Shall come upon you and you will conceive".........


 
That does not mean the Holy Spirit is the Father of Jesus. Jesus makes it abundently clear who his daddy is.




> Has anyone said the Holy Spirit is not God?
> 
> Remember this formula when talking with those who believe scripture reveals God as a trinity. It will save you from making pointless points.
> 
> ...


 
It is rampantly expressed throughout the Old and New Testaments.



> They are not separate in anyways shape or form[/COLOR]
> Show one verse that says that ?????????



You have been given plenty..I am not going to repeat.




> "Shema Israel as God taught to moses to pray, Hear ye Israel Our Lord Is one God"


 
Again, there is but one God.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2011)

SO Closed yet so far , If The Holy Spirit is Not Yeshua's father then teh Holy Spirit is not God as you say.
The Trinity is just men's gibbirish to explain the unexplainable of God, the trinity gives man's attributes to a being that is not like us or a man.

God is more than a trinity, trying to limit God is man creating a god unto man's image and that's what this doctrine does.

Simply "God is"as he told Moses Eiyeh Asher Aiyeh , Iam that Iam, you cannot describe him nor limit him to human imagination, He is beyond that.


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## farmasis (Mar 25, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> SO Closed yet so far , If The Holy Spirit is Not Yeshua's father then teh Holy Spirit is not God as you say.
> The Trinity is just men's gibbirish to explain the unexplainable of God, the trinity gives man's attributes to a being that is not like us or a man.
> 
> God is more than a trinity, trying to limit God is man creating a god unto man's image and that's what this doctrine does.
> ...


 
I am not the one limiting him.


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## Lowjack (Mar 25, 2011)

Trinity doctrine does, LOL


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## polkhunt (Mar 26, 2011)

I replied to this post early on on the first page but I have been reading some of the post and decided to reply again. I grew up baptist most of my life they believed in the trinity as three in one and the house of worship I attend now does as well even though it is of no denomination. I have heard and read all the scripture my whole life, I completely understand the reasoning behind it I just don't agree with it. It does not mean I am in a cult or that I just cant understand it. I go to a house of worship now that is basic baptist doctrine except for the things that baptist hold on to that is tradition and not scriptual but for the most part it is baptist doctrine and not a cult. I just don't agree with everything they believe in either which is true with any house of worship.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 26, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> The Trinity is just men's gibbirish to explain the unexplainable of God, the trinity gives man's attributes to a being that is not like us or a man.
> 
> God is more than a trinity, trying to limit God is man creating a god unto man's image and that's what this doctrine does.
> 
> Simply "God is"as he told Moses Eiyeh Asher Aiyeh , Iam that Iam, you cannot describe him nor limit him to human imagination, He is beyond that.


Amen!
Isaiah 55:8,9


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## Lowjack (Mar 26, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> Amen!
> Isaiah 55:8,9



Isaiah 55:8-9 
 8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, 
   neither are your ways my ways,” 
            declares the LORD. 
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth, 
   so are my ways higher than your ways 
   and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Amen

"there is no one like Yahweh our God." Exodus 8:10 
"Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him." Deuteronomy 4:35 
"Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." Deuteronomy 4:39 
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me" Deuteronomy 32:39 
"Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!" Deuteronomy 6:4 
"You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You" 2 Samuel 7:22 
"For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?" 2 Samuel 22:32 
"Yahweh is God; there is no one else." 1 Kings 8:60 
"You are the God, You alone [bad], of all the kingdoms of the earth." 2 Kings 19:15 
"O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You" 1 Chronicles 17:20 
"You alone [bad] are Yahweh." Nehemiah 9:6 
"For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God" Psalm 18:31 
"You alone [bad], Lord, are God." Isaiah 37:20 
"Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me." Isaiah 43:10 
"‘I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me." Isaiah 44:6 
"Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none." Isaiah 44:8 
"I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God." Isaiah 45:5 
"Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God." Isaiah 45:14 
"I am Yahweh, and there is none else." Isaiah 45:18 
"Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me." Isaiah 45:21 
"I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me" Isaiah 46:9 
"And Yahweh will be king over all the earth; in that day Yahweh will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one[echad]." Zechariah 14:9 
"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one [hen] and love the other, or he will be devoted to one [hen] and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth." Matthew 6:24 
"For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one [hen] flesh"? " Matthew 19:5 
"But do not be called Rabbi; for One [hen] is your Teacher, and you are all brothers." Matthew 23:8 
"Do not be called leaders; for One [hen] is your Leader, that is, Christ." Matthew 23:10 
""The foremost is, ‘Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one [hen] Lord; " Mark 12:29 
"you do not seek the glory that is from the one and only [monos] God?" John 5:44 
"I and the Father are one [hen]." John 10:30 
"This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only [monos] true God" John 17:3 
"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one [hen], just as We are one [hen]" John 17:22 
"since indeed God is one [hen]" Romans 3:30 
"to the only [monos] wise God, Amen." Romans 16:27 
"there is no God but one [hen]" 1 Corinthians 8:4 
"yet for us there is but one [hen] God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one [hen] Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him." 1 Corinthians 8:6 
"Now a mediator is not for one party only; whereas God is only one [hen]." Galatians 3:20 
"There is one [hen] body and one [hen] Spirit, one [hen] hope, one [hen] Lord, one [hen] faith, one [hen] baptism, one [hen] God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all." Ephesians 4:4-6 
"Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only [monos] God" 1 Timothy 1:17 
"which He will bring about at the proper time—He who is the blessed and only [monos] Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone [monos] possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen." 1 Timothy 6:16 
"For there is one [hen] God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus," 1 Timothy 2:5 
"You believe that God is one [hen]. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19 
"For certain persons deny our only [monos] Master and Lord, Jesus Christ." Jude 4 
"the only [monos] God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen." Jude 25


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## farmasis (Mar 26, 2011)

Those are great verses! There is but one God and He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 26, 2011)

farmasis said:


> Those are great verses! There is but one God and He is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


Is it your intent to limit Him to that definition?


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## farmasis (Mar 26, 2011)

*<SUP>16</SUP>* “ Come near to Me, hear this: 
      I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; 
      From the time that it was, I _was_ there. 
      And now the Lord GOD and His Spirit 
      Have sent Me.” (Is.48)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-23205 class=versenum>*16*</SUP> When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and Hesaw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him. <SUP id=en-NKJV-23206 class=versenum>*17*</SUP> And suddenly a voice _came_ from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” (Matt 3)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-24210 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. <SUP id=en-NKJV-24211 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, <SUP id=en-NKJV-24212 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, _even_ to the end of the age.” Amen. (Matt 28)

*<SUP>21</SUP>* When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened. <SUP id=en-NKJV-25044 class=versenum>*22*</SUP> And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.”(Luke 3)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-26691 class=versenum>*26*</SUP> But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you. (John 14)

*<SUP>26</SUP>* “But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me. (John 15)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-29134 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”




 (Gal. 4)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-29244 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. (Ep. 2)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-29319 class=versenum>*18*</SUP> And do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled with the Spirit, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29320 class=versenum>*19*</SUP> speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29321 class=versenum>*20*</SUP> giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 5)

*<SUP>2</SUP>* elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 1)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-30628 class=versenum>*7*</SUP> For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. ( 1 John 5)

*<SUP>20</SUP>* But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, <SUP id=en-NKJV-30690 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude)

Grace, mercy, _and_ peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. (2 Tim 1)

 "that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Adonai, to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2)

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-26042 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26043 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> He was in the beginning with God. (John 1)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-30570 class=versenum>*23*</SUP> Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also. ( 1 John 2)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-30651 class=versenum>*9*</SUP> Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. ( 2 John 1)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-29054 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Spirit _be_ with you all. Amen. (2 Cor 13)

<SUP id=en-NKJV-26228 class=versenum>*21*</SUP> For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to _them,_ even so the Son gives life to whom He will. (John 5)


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## farmasis (Mar 26, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> Is it your intent to limit Him to that definition?


 
Nope, but that is who He says He is.

How does that limit him more than saying he is singular?


----------



## Ronnie T (Mar 26, 2011)

polkhunt said:


> I replied to this post early on on the first page but I have been reading some of the post and decided to reply again. I grew up baptist most of my life they believed in the trinity as three in one and the house of worship I attend now does as well even though it is of no denomination. I have heard and read all the scripture my whole life, I completely understand the reasoning behind it I just don't agree with it. It does not mean I am in a cult or that I just cant understand it. I go to a house of worship now that is basic baptist doctrine except for the things that baptist hold on to that is tradition and not scriptual but for the most part it is baptist doctrine and not a cult. I just don't agree with everything they believe in either which is true with any house of worship.



Good for you.
You and I and all other Christians will be able to live our lives fully for Christ and never ever have to utter the "T" word.
It isn't a bad word, but it often confuses the issue.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 26, 2011)

farmasis said:


> Nope, but that is who He says He is.
> 
> How does that limit him more than saying he is singular?



Because He said that He is One.
Because enthusiasm for man's doctrine (the trinity) leads to things like the unfounded translation of 1 John 5:7.
But mostly, and I cannot say it better than LJ, "you cannot describe Him or limit Him to human imagination, He is beyond that."


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## farmasis (Mar 26, 2011)

hummerpoo said:


> Because He said that He is One.
> Because enthusiasm for man's doctrine (the trinity) leads to things like the unfounded translation of 1 John 5:7.
> But mostly, and I cannot say it better than LJ, "you cannot describe Him or limit Him to human imagination, He is beyond that."


 
Exactly..He is One. Three in One. And you cannot limit him to only One in One.


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## hummerpoo (Mar 26, 2011)

farmasis said:


> Exactly..He is One. Three in One. And you cannot limit him to only One in One.



I cannot limit Him, I cannot expand Him, I cannot shape Him because He Is.

I apologize for the weakness of my communication and thank God for your patience in allowing me to once again ponder the glory of our awsome Creator.

God bless you brother.


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## HawgJawl (Mar 26, 2011)

Since no one wants to be the one to limit God, consider this.  God chose certain things to reveal to man about Himself.  There's plenty more that He did not address about Himself, but among the things that He did decide to relay to man is the concept of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Since God took the initiative to relay this concept to man, do you believe that God was unable to explain it in a way that we can understand?  Did God fail in communicating that concept?  If we say that it is something that is beyond man's ability to comprehend, then what does that say about God's decision to try to communicate it to us?  Aren't you limiting God by saying that we can't understand what He is trying to tell us?


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## ambush80 (Mar 26, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Since no one wants to be the one to limit God, consider this.  God chose certain things to reveal to man about Himself.  There's plenty more that He did not address about Himself, but among the things that He did decide to relay to man is the concept of the relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.  Since God took the initiative to relay this concept to man, do you believe that God was unable to explain it in a way that we can understand?  Did God fail in communicating that concept?  If we say that it is something that is beyond man's ability to comprehend, then what does that say about God's decision to try to communicate it to us?  Aren't you limiting God by saying that we can't understand what He is trying to tell us?



We can't understand what He's saying because of the talking snake.


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## Lowjack (Mar 27, 2011)

farmasis said:


> Exactly..He is One. Three in One. And you cannot limit him to only One in One.



As One he is not Limited, as All That he is which is beyond any number.
As 3 he is limited to a man made number and functions.


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## Lowjack (Mar 27, 2011)

The Mysterious Trinity;
http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/is-god-a-mysterious-trinity-no-one-can-understand.html


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 27, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> The Mysterious Trinity;
> http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/is-god-a-mysterious-trinity-no-one-can-understand.html


Hello Lowjack. I got your post that you said you have never attended a "oneness" church, but I read through the link and as best as I can tell, Your belief and "oneness doctrine" are the same. You may already know this. I would be interested to know if there are differences.


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## farmasis (Mar 27, 2011)

All I know is that if we take all of scripture into consideration God cannot be explained any other way than the trinity. Disagree if you wish, but you may want to ponder all the times God is quoted using 'we' and 'us' like in creation, the numerous times that the Holy Spirit, God the Father, and God the Son is used throughout the Old and New Testaments at the same time, etc. and the words of Jesus and the apostles who seperated the three.


Great websites for more info on the truthfulness of the trinity:

http://carm.org/trinity

http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html


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## Lowjack (Mar 27, 2011)

farmasis said:


> All I know is that if we take all of scripture into consideration God cannot be explained any other way than the trinity. Disagree if you wish, but you may want to ponder all the times God is quoted using 'we' and 'us' like in creation, the numerous times that the Holy Spirit, God the Father, and God the Son is used throughout the Old and New Testaments at the same time, etc. and the words of Jesus and the apostles who seperated the three.
> 
> 
> Great websites for more info on the truthfulness of the trinity:
> ...



I disagree totally, us is use because in English there is no way to translate the Royal Plural of the Hebrew Elohim and the Language rules of Hebrew where you have a word which is written in the plural teh whole sentence must follow in plural nouns.

Second the only separation that existed for a short period of time was Yeshua as Flesh and the Father within, when he was Glorified they all became one again as it is written
"For in Him dwells the Godhead bodily"


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## Lowjack (Mar 27, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Lowjack. I got your post that you said you have never attended a "oneness" church, but I read through the link and as best as I can tell, Your belief and "oneness doctrine" are the same. You may already know this. I would be interested to know if there are differences.



Oneness Doctrine is Jewish Doctrine, not because Jews decided to implemented but Because God revealed himself Personally to the people of Israel and told them so, if there is a oneness religion that says that ,then they are correct in that doctrine, whatever else they teach I don't know their hold written creed to say anything about it, except  I think they also say Jesus is the name of God, technically this is Correct and Incorrect ,you see The Messiah's name is not Jesus but Yeh'shua if they mean Yeh'shua is God's name that is Correct , the God of Israel's name is Yah or Yeh thus
Yeh' as in Jesus name is Correct shua" means salvation

So the Salvation Of God is his name and Title found through out the Old testament , everywhere you read God's salvation, the salvation of God, my salvation etc , it is talking about God and his title as saviour.
Like in Psalm 91 it ends with" I will see his salvation", well in fact it says I will see "Yeshua"(Jesus)


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## farmasis (Mar 27, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> I disagree totally, us is use because in English there is no way to translate the Royal Plural of the Hebrew Elohim and the Language rules of Hebrew where you have a word which is written in the plural teh whole sentence must follow in plural nouns.
> 
> Second the only separation that existed for a short period of time was Yeshua as Flesh and the Father within, when he was Glorified they all became one again as it is written
> "For in Him dwells the Godhead bodily"


 
You assume Elohim is being used in a Royal Plural form uncommon at the time Moses wrote Genesis. 

Barnabas, a Christian convert of a Levite Jew wrote in 100AD:
For the Scripture says concerning us, while He speaks to the Son, "Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the beastsof the earth, and the fowls of heaven, and the fishes of the sea." 

So, you believe in a God that is mutable?

For I _am_ the LORD, I do not change; 
      Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. (Mal. 3)

 <SUP id=en-NASB-30284 class=versenum>*17*</SUP>Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. (James 1)

And what about this short term creation of Jesus you believe in..
How do you reconcile this?

<SUP id=en-NKJV-30246 class=versenum>*8*</SUP> Jesus Christ _is_ the same yesterday, today, and forever. (Hebrews 13)

   <SUP id=en-NKJV-18513 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> “ You _are_ My witnesses,” says the LORD, 
      “ And My servant whom I have chosen, 
      That you may know and believe Me, 
      And understand that I _am_ He. 
      Before Me there was no God formed, 
      Nor shall there be after Me. (Is. 43)


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## Lowjack (Mar 27, 2011)

farmasis said:


> You assume Elohim is being used in a Royal Plural form uncommon at the time Moses wrote Genesis.
> 
> Barnabas, a Christian convert of a Levite Jew wrote in 100AD:
> For the Scripture says concerning us, while He speaks to the Son, "Let Us make man after Our image, and after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the beastsof the earth, and the fowls of heaven, and the fishes of the sea."
> ...



Barnabas is entitled to his opinion and so Am I, Levites were not all instructed in teh scriptures as we saw Nicodemus was an example a doctor of the law Christ called him , yet he didn't know what born again was.

I'll put it Bluntley for you , If Yeshua is not God the Father in the flesh, the creator he cannot save you or me.

AND IF HE IS THEN THERE IS ONLY ONE NOT 3.


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## farmasis (Mar 28, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> Barnabas is entitled to his opinion and so Am I, Levites were not all instructed in teh scriptures as we saw Nicodemus was an example a doctor of the law Christ called him , yet he didn't know what born again was.
> 
> I'll put it Bluntley for you , If Yeshua is not God the Father in the flesh, the creator he cannot save you or me.
> 
> AND IF HE IS THEN THERE IS ONLY ONE NOT 3.


 
The point about Barnabas was that we just can't dismiss God in the plural as a formatility and norm of ancient Hebrew.

Why do you feel this way (the blue part)?

So much scripture showing Jesus and God being seperate entity and not just a fleshly expression of himself only, such as Jesus would pray that the will of the Father be done and not his will...that God had forsaken him on the cross, that he prayed for God to forgive the people that persecuted him, etc, etc, etc.

None of that makes sense to me if Jesus was the Father.

We worship the same God I am sure, just from different perspectives and different ways of expressing Him. Either way, our views of Him are not adequate of the great God He is.


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## Lowjack (Mar 28, 2011)

If Yeshua is not God the Father in the flesh, the creator he cannot save you or me

Isaiah 43;

3 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee.

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

Isaiah 45
Isaiah 45:21 says,




“Tell you, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who has declared this from ancient time? Who has told it from that time? Have not I the Lord? And there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me



SO IF YESHUA IS NOT YHVVH IN THE FLESH YOU AND I ARE STILL LOST < HE IS THE ONLY SAVIOUR>


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## christianhunter (Mar 28, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> If Yeshua is not God the Father in the flesh, the creator he cannot save you or me
> 
> Isaiah 43;
> 
> ...



HE is GOD in THE FLESH.Emmanuel(Immanuel)"GOD with us".There is no dispute in Scripture!

It has been said there are three parts to a man,in many sermons I have heard.Body,soul,and spirit.Are we not made in The Image of GOD?There is no controversy,one man with three equal parts.One will see death(the body),and two parts of man will not(soul and spirit).There will be a ressurection,and the body will be reunited with the soul and spirit.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 28, 2011)

There are good points made by just about every poster on this thread.  One thing stands out to me.
Everytime a person thinks he/she has God all figured out, someone posts a verse or set of scripture that re-tips the scale in one direction or another.
Our Almighty God and Heavenly Father is vast.  We will continue to marvel at our inability to completely grasp His fullness.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 28, 2011)

Lowjack said:


> If Yeshua is not God the Father in the flesh, the creator he cannot save you or me
> 
> Isaiah 43;
> 
> ...



Hello Lowjack, got anything in addition to this. It could be that God is the savior but that he uses Jesus as his insturment. Or that he saves us through Jesus. What's your input on this?


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 28, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> HE is GOD in THE FLESH.Emmanuel(Immanuel)"GOD with us".There is no dispute in Scripture!
> 
> It has been said there are three parts to a man,in many sermons I have heard.Body,soul,and spirit.Are we not made in The Image of GOD?There is no controversy,one man with three equal parts.One will see death(the body),and two parts of man will not(soul and spirit).There will be a ressurection,and the body will be reunited with the soul and spirit.


Hello christianhunter, the other interpretation is like this: My son will be going to Chapel Hill this year, He will be called a tarheel because he attends the college. Jesus will be "called God with us" because God was with him. Context comes from Ex 33:16, "what else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the earth" refering to verse 14, "My presence will go with you". also see Acts 10:38, "How God annointed Jesus...because God was with him."


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## farmasis (Mar 29, 2011)

Very good points made by all.


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## christianhunter (Mar 29, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello christianhunter, the other interpretation is like this: My son will be going to Chapel Hill this year, He will be called a tarheel because he attends the college. Jesus will be "called God with us" because God was with him. Context comes from Ex 33:16, "what else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the earth" refering to verse 14, "My presence will go with you". also see Acts 10:38, "How God annointed Jesus...because God was with him."



This is the way I see it.Those of us who have accepted THE LORD as Savior are saved.We have called on HIS Name and confessed our failure before HIM.We believe,as it is written that HE is the only Way to see THE FATHER,by HIS Blood sacrifice for us.THE HOLY SPIRIT dwells within each and every Christian,and guides us through the rest of our life.HE is ONE GOD!

I believe and trust my soul for eternity,in HIS promise for all who will follow HIM.I believe in HIS HOLY WORD,and what HE says in it.Man differs in his belief,look at the different denominations.I put my trust in THE LORD,even on the things I do not understand.


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## 1gr8bldr (Mar 29, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> This is the way I see it.Those of us who have accepted THE LORD as Savior are saved.We have called on HIS Name and confessed our failure before HIM.We believe,as it is written that HE is the only Way to see THE FATHER,by HIS Blood sacrifice for us.THE HOLY SPIRIT dwells within each and every Christian,and guides us through the rest of our life.HE is ONE GOD!
> 
> I believe and trust my soul for eternity,in HIS promise for all who will follow HIM.I believe in HIS HOLY WORD,and what HE says in it.Man differs in his belief,look at the different denominations.I put my trust in THE LORD,even on the things I do not understand.


 Same here friend


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## Harbuck (Mar 29, 2011)

*1*



christianhunter said:


> > Paul in I Corinthians 12:6 quotes: "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all."
> >
> > I think all Christians filled with THE SPIRIT,would heartily agree that THE FATHER,SON,and HOLY SPIRIT are One and the Same.There is never an argument that I can see,only a play on words,from others who doubt.
> 
> ...


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## farmasis (Mar 29, 2011)

I am not dragging this out, but I think it is VERY important to clarify some of what has been said here. I will post the Word of God and not my own opinion. If anyone of faith has a problem with these scriptures, take them up with God or explain them away (to yourself please) as best you can.

We are saved by God.

*<SUP>3</SUP>* For I _am_ the LORD your God, 
      The Holy One of Israel, your Savior (Is 43)

Specifically, we are saved through Christ and Christ has always existed with God.

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-18513 class=versenum>*10*</SUP> “ You _are_ My witnesses,” says the LORD, 
      “ And My servant whom I have chosen, 
      That you may know and believe Me, 
      And understand that I _am_ He. 
Before Me there was no God formed, 
      Nor shall there be after Me. (Is. 43)

Not only did Jesus exist with God, Jesus was also God.

*<SUP>1</SUP>* In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26043 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> He was in the beginning with God. 
*<SUP>14</SUP>* And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. 

*<SUP>16 </SUP>*God<SUP> </SUP>was manifested in the flesh, 
      Justified in the Spirit, 
      Seen by angels, 
      Preached among the Gentiles, 
      Believed on in the world, 
      Received up in glory. (1 Tim 3)

And Jesus is the part of God that the NT teaches brings salvation to men.

*<SUP>10</SUP>* let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. <SUP id=en-NKJV-27030 class=versenum>*11*</SUP> This is the _‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’_<SUP class=footnote value='[a]'>[a]</SUP> <SUP id=en-NKJV-27031 class=versenum>*12*</SUP> Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”


*<SUP>3</SUP>* For this _is_ good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29717 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. <SUP id=en-NKJV-29718 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> For _there is_ one God and one Mediator between God and men, _the_ Man Christ Jesus. (1 Tim. 2)

*<SUP>6</SUP>* Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. (John 14)

*<SUP>16</SUP>* For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26134 class=versenum>*17*</SUP> For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 

So make no mistake, Jesus or Yeshua if you wish, who is God, is our savior.
*<SUP></SUP>* 
*<SUP>13</SUP>* looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29919 class=versenum>*14*</SUP> who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself _His_ own special people, zealous for good works. (Titus 2)


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## christianhunter (Mar 30, 2011)

Harbuck said:


> christianhunter said:
> 
> 
> > So why do you baptize in titles?  Jesus was fully God and fully man that is why he is refered to as the son of God and the son of man. Also, There is no remission of sin if you aren't baptized in Jesus name. Titles will not and can not save you.
> ...


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## gtparts (Mar 31, 2011)

farmasis said:


> I am not dragging this out, but I think it is VERY important to clarify some of what has been said here. I will post the Word of God and not my own opinion. If anyone of faith has a problem with these scriptures, take them up with God or explain them away (to yourself please) as best you can.
> 
> We are saved by God.
> 
> ...



I must say, I take great joy in standing firm on the Rock with brothers such as yourself. God's word is truth.... regardless of whether we fully understand it all. What some seem to see as separate beings are, nevertheless, the one true God. The inability to express this truth so that all can understand is a failure of human thought and language. It can only be grasped as one accepts that things of spirit are not apprehended by the carnal mind, but by His revelation.

Thanks for the response that comes from God. It will stand when all else fails.


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