# Abomination of desolation



## hobbs27 (Apr 21, 2017)

It's pretty obvious the abomination of desolation was the Roman Soldiers surrounding Jerusalem in 66ad right?  
Luke 21:
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

And some historical reference. 

Chrysostom wrote: "For this it seems to me that the abomination of desolation means the army by which the holy city of Jerusalem was made desolate." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers)

Augustine wrote: (379) "Luke to show that the abomination spoken of by Daniel will take place when Jerusalem is captured, recalls these words of the Lord in the same context: When you shall see Jerusalem compassed about with an army, then know that the desolation thereof is at hand (xxi. 20). For Luke very clearly bears witness that the prophecy of Daniel was fulfilled when Jerusalem was overthrown." (vol. 6, p. 170)

C.H. Spurgeon wrote: (1888) "This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215).

Albert Barnes wrote: (1949) "The abomination of desolation means the Roman army, and is so explained by Lu, xxi. 20. The Roman army is further called the abomination on account of the images of the emperor, and the eagles, carried in front of the legions, and regarded by the Romans with divine honours" (Matthew p. 254)


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## gordon 2 (Apr 21, 2017)

And why is this important in my life?


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

and could they have been wrong, especially Spurgeon and Barnes, since they never saw Jerusalem built like it is now.  

I know nothing happens after 70ad but is it not possible that they could have been mistaken?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> and could they have been wrong, especially Spurgeon and Barnes, since they never saw Jerusalem built like it is now.
> 
> I know nothing happens after 70ad but is it not possible that they could have been mistaken?


Sure,  it's possible they could be wrong.  I'm not so sure Luke could be wrong though.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 21, 2017)

gordon 2 said:


> And why is this important in my life?



hey,  don't mind me,  just pick and choose what scripture is important to you.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> hey,  don't mind me,  just pick and choose what scripture is important to you.



Hobbs, don't most Futurists agree that Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Army in 70AD?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 21, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, don't most Futurists agree that Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Army in 70AD?



Yes,  but not that it had to do with the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

I don't believe that Daniel was speaking of a one time event.  If he was, why wasn't it when the Temple was desecrated when Neb'r overran the Temple and captured the jews and they went into a captivity.  Surely if Daniel was speaking of one event, it would have been the event in his existance?


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## hobbs27 (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> I don't believe that Daniel was speaking of a one time event.  If he was, why wasn't it when the Temple was desecrated when Neb'r overran the Temple and captured the jews and they went into a captivity.  Surely if Daniel was speaking of one event, it would have been the event in his existance?



Because the event Daniel was speaking of happened in the last half of the seventieth week... The end of the age.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

proof?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

Let's use Matthew's account;

So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

This is what makes me think it happened in 70AD;

"then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

you don't think those in Judea fled to the mountains when Neb'r came to town and overtook it?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.

Who are these warnings for? Somebody is being given a heads up to get out of Dodge. Flee to the mountains.

Does it sound like a warning to me in America in 2017?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> you don't think those in Judea fled to the mountains when Neb'r came to town and overtook it?



Then you see the warnings as pertaining to every overtaking of Jerusalem, past and present?

But Jesus is warning them about a future destruction or destructions, not one that happened 597 years before him.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then you see the warnings as pertaining to every overtaking of Jerusalem, past and present?
> 
> But Jesus is warning them about a future destruction or destructions, not one that happened 597 years before him.




no, not every overthrowing of Jerusalem. I just wonder why the 70ad overthrowing was the one and only, and it couldn't be another.

Could it not happen at the end of the age of the Gentiles, as Peter was speaking in Acts 2 IIRC


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

Mark 13:9
"You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them.

Does this sound like something that will happen in the future? Christians flogged in synagogues?

Mark 13:14
"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

Why not?  you think the jews have a wrap on the persecution issue?

More Christians are killed each year.  Just for being Christian.  Estimates are the 900,000 were killed in the past decade, or one every 6 minutes.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> no, not every overthrowing of Jerusalem. I just wonder why the 70ad overthrowing was the one and only, and it couldn't be another.
> 
> Could it not happen at the end of the age of the Gentiles, as Peter was speaking in Acts 2 IIRC



 “Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles,"

Possibly, when was that event?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> Why not?  you think the jews have a wrap on the persecution issue?
> 
> More Christians are killed each year.  Just for being Christian.  Estimates are the 900,000 were killed in the past decade, or one every 6 minutes.



If one looks at those warnings in the Gospels of the eminent destruction of "Jerusalem", who did the warnings pertain to? 
Who was being told they would be persecuted?

I'm not doubting a future coming of Jesus, but I can see that those warnings are for Christians in Judea of an eminent destruction.

Somehow I see those warnings as salvation from a local destruction and perhaps a future event as salvation from eternal death. Is this a bit far fetched? Maybe a parallel in some way or a past mirror of a future event.

I'm not going to be fleeing to the mountains. It's not gonna matter if my daughter is pregnant. It's not gonna matter if it's winter.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

it was during Daniels time, during the time of Herod, and again at 70ad.  Do you think it could happen again, especially since the jews are preparing to build a 3rd Temple?  They offered a passover sacrifice in view of the Temple Mount this year, the  closest it had been sacrificed in recent years.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

Mark 13:14
You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

This has nothing to do with the eternal salvation of the soul which is given by the gift of grace. One doesn't have to worry about persevering to the end to receive salvation from eternal death.

What if a Christian was to die tomorrow without the whole world hating him for his belief in Jesus? We're not to that point in the world. Why go out and preach if one day everyone will hate Christians?

This warning is about salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> it was during Daniels time, during the time of Herod, and again at 70ad.  Do you think it could happen again, especially since the jews are preparing to build a 3rd Temple?  They offered a passover sacrifice in view of the Temple Mount this year, the  closest it had been sacrificed in recent years.



Yes I do believe Jerusalem could be destroyed again but I don't believe the Gospel accounts are of a future destruction of Jerusalem.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

Acts 2:21-23
The sun will be turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. 21And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’ 22Men of Israel, listen to this message: Jesus of Nazareth was a man certified by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs, which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know.23He was handed over by God’s set plan and foreknowledge, and you, by the hands of the lawless, put Him to death by nailing Him to the cross.

Notice the address to "Men of Israel"


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## hobbs27 (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> it was during Daniels time, during the time of Herod, and again at 70ad.  Do you think it could happen again, especially since the jews are preparing to build a 3rd Temple?  They offered a passover sacrifice in view of the Temple Mount this year, the  closest it had been sacrificed in recent years.



No.  It can't happen again. There are no mosaic Jew's left since 70ad, and that's why that destruction was so important.  It was the end of the Old covenant,  the Old covenant age,  temple sacrifice,  the genealogies,  the priesthood... All those things in old covenant Mosaic Judaism that pointed to the Messiah are fulfilled. 

These people today calling themselves Jew's.. The rabbinic Judaism religion... It's as fake and made up as Islam.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

"before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord."

Is that a one time event?

I can think of one past  coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord.

Christ's return, second coming, coming of Jesus, when Jesus returns, etc.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

"He was handed over by God’s set plan and foreknowledge"


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> No.  It can't happen again. There are no mosaic Jew's left since 70ad, and that's why that destruction was so important.  It was the end of the Old covenant,  the Old covenant age,  temple sacrifice,  the genealogies,  the priesthood... All those things in old covenant Mosaic Judaism that pointed to the Messiah are fulfilled.
> 
> These people today calling themselves Jew's.. The rabbinic Judaism religion... It's as fake and made up as Islam.



I'm not so sure about that;

Romans 11:25-26
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

Is this a past event?


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Mark 13:14
> You will be hated by everyone on account of My name, but the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the eternal salvation of the soul which is given by the gift of grace. One doesn't have to worry about persevering to the end to receive salvation from eternal death.




then please explain this verse....
James 5
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.


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## NE GA Pappy (Apr 21, 2017)

or this verse...

12Because of the multiplication of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. 13But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

notice, he says that because wickedness multiplied their love would grow cold, but the one who perseveres will be saved.

what happens with one who loves grows cold?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

or this;

Ezekiel 18:20
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die" 

Ezekiel 18:24
"But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, 10nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:13-15
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one.’ 14For if you forgive men their trespasses, your Heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive yours.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

Matt 25:34-46
34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me {something} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in;
36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink?
38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
39 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, {even} the least {of them,} you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me {nothing} to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;
43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 21, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> then please explain this verse....
> James 5
> 19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.



I guess it is saying some folks salvation lies within my power. That I can save someone from everlasting death.

I've once struggled between the teachings of James and Paul. I used to say I wish Paul was still Saul.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not so sure about that;
> 
> Romans 11:25-26
> I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
> ...



Of course it is past.  All Israel was saved.  The wheat ( All Israel)  was harvested and the tares (apostate Israel)  were cast out of covenant.  

 The Sheep that knew Jesus voice were separated from the goats.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2017)

NE GA Pappy said:


> no, not every overthrowing of Jerusalem. I just wonder why the 70ad overthrowing was the one and only, and it couldn't be another.
> 
> Could it not happen at the end of the age of the Gentiles, as Peter was speaking in Acts 2 IIRC



I'm really interested in seeing an end of the church age in scripture if you know where that is suggested.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2017)

Perceveiring to the end.
 Christians were under great tribulation by the old covenant Jew's.  It got really bad toward the end.  It would have been easier on them to turn back to mosaic Judaism.... But those that held to the faith,  saw the abomination of desolation sign of the Roman soldiers standing in Jerusalem, and they fled.  They were saved.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Perceveiring to the end.
> Christians were under great tribulation by the old covenant Jew's.  It got really bad toward the end.  It would have been easier on them to turn back to mosaic Judaism.... But those that held to the faith,  saw the abomination of desolation sign of the Roman soldiers standing in Jerusalem, and they fled.  They were saved.



Do you see this as saved from the destruction of Jerusalem and saved from everlasting death?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Of course it is past.  All Israel was saved.  The wheat ( All Israel)  was harvested and the tares (apostate Israel)  were cast out of covenant.
> 
> The Sheep that knew Jesus voice were separated from the goats.



How does one read scripture today and figure out how it pertains to them considering "it was finished" in 70AD?

Can we still use the wheat and tares now to mean the Church? Can we use salvation now to mean salvation from eternal death? 
I'm having trouble explaining what I'm trying to convey. I know most of the events in the Bible have already happened so scripture is for me but not about me. Is that the saying?

Scripture makes it seem like many things will not happen until "it is finished." In that respect it would be better if it has all been finished. That way I can go on to meet the Lord when I die instead of having to wait in the ground or in Abraham's Bosom. I'd rather just go on to Heaven and be done with it.
I don't believe that once I get there, I'll be leaving.

So getting back to scripture, does everything being finished make it easier to understand scripture as it pertains to us?

Let's take the overlapping of the two covenants, that would explain a lot of scripture right there. I think maybe we read too many passages as if it pertains directly to us when it really doesn't. Maybe during the overlapped period, they were still partially under the law, maybe? 
Then we read scripture written for this group and think it pertains to us.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'd rather just go on to Heaven and be done with it.



Not meaning by you Art; but you statement made me chuckle at the thought of how much interpretation, doctrine, and theology is grounded in "I'd rather ...".


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## hobbs27 (Apr 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does one read scripture today and figure out how it pertains to them considering "it was finished" in 70AD?
> 
> Can we still use the wheat and tares now to mean the Church? Can we use salvation now to mean salvation from eternal death?
> I'm having trouble explaining what I'm trying to convey. I know most of the events in the Bible have already happened so scripture is for me but not about me. Is that the saying?
> ...



Art,  it is all fulfilled.  ( it)  is,  but we aren't.  A covenant  , a kingdom is here for us.  All we have to do is answer the call of the bride and spirit.  Take of the water of life that is freely given... Enjoy life in His ever increasing kingdom. And yes,  we have eternal life,  so we don't have to die and sit around in a grave or wait around to retrieve a useless body.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 22, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Not meaning by you Art; but you statement made me chuckle at the thought of how much interpretation, doctrine, and theology is grounded in "I'd rather ...".



It was a weird way of stating my druthers. Not that my druthers matter much in God's plan. I'll just say; it would be easier to interpret scripture if "it is finished."

I'm not saying it is, but from point "A" to "B" or from the grave to Heaven, is much easier to see than, to the grave physically, to Abraham's Bosom spiritually, back to the earth's sky spiritually, up to the sky physically, body and spirit re-united, then off and up to Heaven we will go.


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## hummerpoo (Apr 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It was a weird way of stating my druthers. Not that my druthers matter much in God's plan. I'll just say; it would be easier to interpret scripture if "it is finished."
> 
> I'm not saying it is, but from point "A" to "B" or from the grave to Heaven, is much easier to see than, to the grave physically, to Abraham's Bosom spiritually, back to the earth's sky spiritually, up to the sky physically, body and spirit re-united, then off and up to Heaven we will go.



I often thank God that my mind is unencumbered by such thoughts, although I recognize the concern of others; come to think of it, I guess I don't even have druthers in that area.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Perceveiring to the end.
> Christians were under great tribulation by the old covenant Jew's.  It got really bad toward the end.  It would have been easier on them to turn back to mosaic Judaism.... But those that held to the faith,  saw the abomination of desolation sign of the Roman soldiers standing in Jerusalem, and they fled.  They were saved.



These people who fled to the mountains and received salvation from the destruction, did they also receive eternal salvation from everlasting death? 
What happened to them after the destruction of Jerusalem? Did all of the non-believers, tares if you will die in the destruction?
I'm trying to figure out if anybody was left but the people who were the sheep. What happened to the sheep at that time? Were they raptured or did they live out their physical lives in the mountains and/or dispersion?

So the tares, did they live out their physical lives until they died a physical, everlasting death or were they all destroyed in the destruction? 

I guess the sheep, as in today, went on reproducing tares. 

Please don't give me a video. A short as possible answer will suffice. Just wondering what happened to everybody after Jerusalem fell. The believers, the non-believers, and the Romans soldiers and how life went on after the destruction. 
Considering we are still here and we still have believers and non-believers  who came from that group and dispersed the gospel to the world. Unless the gospel had already been preached to the world. Still though it was a local event that didn't kill non-believers in the South Pacific.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2017)

According to Josephus 1.1 million Jews died, around 95,000 were taken into slavery and about the same number was left behind. Those left behind were the elderly, sick,  and those just unable to work as slaves. There was a small faction that escaped but were found and killed or committed mass suicide later on.

 Those taken into slavery were scattered all around in the Roman Empire. Many converting to other faiths and most if not all eventually marrying into other races, which makes it impossible for anyone to say they are 100% Hebrew today, and was even difficult to do when Christ was born..and they had the genealogical records in those days at the temple. The tares being burned was representative of being cast out of their kingdom...cast out of covenant.

As for the Christians, they scattered about also, building churches throughout Asia , Europe, and North Africa.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

“When ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.” (Luke 21:20.)

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

“Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains"

Daniel 11:31
"His army will take over the Temple fortress, pollute the sanctuary, put a stop to the daily sacrifices, and set up the sacrilegious object that causes desecration.

I would say Daniel was talking about the destruction that is eminent because Matthew says it is.

Matthew 24:15
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand.

Now how do we as Christians view this Temple that was destroyed? They said it was holy. The "abomination of desolation" would pollute the sanctuary.

So was this a Christian holy place or a Jewish holy place? If Jewish then maybe that's why God destroyed it. Yet it seems to be of some importance to God if it was holy and the "abomination of desolation" polluted the sanctuary. How could a non-Christian sanctuary get polluted?

It had to have some importance with God, especially if it will be rebuilt. Now if all is finished then perhaps it was just a non-Christian Jewish temple that needed to be destroyed. 
Now that it is gone we can see the Temple that was rebuilt in three days and become a part of that Temple.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> According to Josephus 1.1 million Jews died, around 95,000 were taken into slavery and about the same number was left behind. Those left behind were the elderly, sick,  and those just unable to work as slaves. There was a small faction that escaped but were found and killed or committed mass suicide later on.
> 
> Those taken into slavery were scattered all around in the Roman Empire. Many converting to other faiths and most if not all eventually marrying into other races, which makes it impossible for anyone to say they are 100% Hebrew today, and was even difficult to do when Christ was born..and they had the genealogical records in those days at the temple. The tares being burned was representative of being cast out of their kingdom...cast out of covenant.
> 
> As for the Christians, they scattered about also, building churches throughout Asia , Europe, and North Africa.



Then both non-believers and believers escaped the destruction. These gospel accounts of the salvation from destruction saved both Christians, Jews, and Pagans(Roman soldiers)
I was thinking only the Christians gained salvation and the rest were killed but just on a local basis. 

Now if salvation was given to non-believers, did some believers not receive salvation from the destruction?
Were there any Christians among the million Jews that died? Perhaps they didn't heed the warning to flee to the mountains. Maybe some of them went back for their cloak.

Would you say the destruction of Jerusalem was more or less just the end of a physical Jerusalem and temple to allow the new spiritual Jerusalem and temple to appear?
More or less to finish up prophesy. It had nothing to do with eternal salvation. The end of everything Jewish to include the Holy Temple.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then both non-believers and believers escaped the destruction. These gospel accounts of the salvation from destruction saved both Christians, Jews, and Pagans(Roman soldiers)
> I was thinking only the Christians gained salvation and the rest were killed but just on a local basis.
> 
> Now if salvation was given to non-believers, did some believers not receive salvation from the destruction?
> ...



Josephus said all Christians left the city. 

 Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

The Old covenant had been made obsolete,  yet the physical part of it was still in existence.  It had to be destroyed is Jesus foretold in Matthew 24.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Of course it is past.  All Israel was saved.  The wheat ( All Israel)  was harvested and the tares (apostate Israel)  were cast out of covenant.
> 
> The Sheep that knew Jesus voice were separated from the goats.



Then you see Romans 11:25-26 as part of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD? This is when the wheat was separated from the tares?

I'm still trying to see or combine the two salvation's. If Romans 11:25-26 happened in 70AD then did it not give eternal salvation to Israel(sheep)?

Yet not all of the the tares died in the destruction and not every Christian gained eternal salvation in the destruction.

How do we go about separating salvation verses as to which ones pertain to salvation from the destruction vs the ones pertaining to salvation from eternal death?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Josephus said all Christians left the city.



So much for free will. Every Christian heeded the warnings. No Christian went back for his cloak. This salvation was their physical salvation from the destruction of the city. It didn't affect their eternal salvation one way or the other.

Even if they were destroyed in the city, it would not have affected their eternal salvation. They didn't all go to Heaven after the destruction. They lived on producing offspring. Some of whom never believed.
Eventually though they died a physical death and received their eternal salvation that the Cross provided. Many could have died in future wars. They didn't gain mortality in the destruction at Jerusalem. They just gained a little more time on the earth. Some gained days and others gained years.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then you see Romans 11:25-26 as part of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD? This is when the wheat was separated from the tares?
> 
> I'm still trying to see or combine the two salvation's. If Romans 11:25-26 happened in 70AD then did it not give eternal salvation to Israel(sheep)?
> 
> ...



They received eternal life in their faith.  Christians were already saved.....but this was the transition period,  much like the 40years in the wilderness there was 40 years from Pentecost to 70ad give or take a year.

Those that died in this transition were referred to as those that sleep in Christ.  They received eternal life,  but before the marriage of the bride was consummated.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> They received eternal life in their faith.  Christians were already saved.....but this was the transition period,  much like the 40years in the wilderness there was 40 years from Pentecost to 70ad give or take a year.
> 
> Those that died in this transition were referred to as those that sleep in Christ.  They received eternal life,  but before the marriage of the bride was consummated.



Are you saying the destruction in 70AD was needed for the Christians alive during that period to gain eternal salvation?

I think I've got enough to dwell on for the time being. Somehow it appears the gospel accounts of the destruction brought salvation from the destruction and somehow it's related to eternal salvation.
I'll have to let some of this info sink in.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying the destruction in 70AD was needed for the Christians alive during that period to gain eternal salvation?
> 
> I think I've got enough to dwell on for the time being. Somehow it appears the gospel accounts of the destruction brought salvation from the destruction and somehow it's related to eternal salvation.
> I'll have to let some of this info sink in.



Sure.  There was " the dead ones"  and there was the " sleep in Christ aka dead in Christ" ones and there was those that were alive and remained to His coming... All were joined together as one spiritual body.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Sure.  There was " the dead ones"  and there was the " sleep in Christ aka dead in Christ" ones and there was those that were alive and remained to His coming... All were joined together as one spiritual body.



Yet this coming of Christ saved some Jews who were non-believers. It also allowed sheep to produce non-believing reprobates.
We still have Judaism and we still have reprobates that were saved from the destruction. 

It appears the only one's who benefited from it were the believing soul sleepers as for as to who gained eternal salvation. Which coincided with the salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem. Which saved all Christians and some reprobate Jews from the local destruction only. It didn't save them from any future destruction. It didn't save the sheep in the Vietnam War destruction. 

The rest of the world went about living as they were before the destruction. When did the Gospel reach the whole world? Unless all the soul sleeping saints of the whole wide world also gained eternal life coinciding with the destruction of Jerusalem.

What am I missing? What is the connecting link to the local salvation mentioned in the gospels and the salvation from eternal death?


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

If the Gospel has already reached the whole world then that would prove God's audience were the only one's who were called.

Unless the "world" was the area around the Middle East.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet this coming of Christ saved some Jews who were non-believers. It also allowed sheep to produce non-believing reprobates.
> We still have Judaism and we still have reprobates that were saved from the destruction.
> 
> It appears the only one's who benefited from it were the believing soul sleepers as for as to who gained eternal salvation. Which coincided with the salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem. Which saved all Christians and some reprobate Jews from the local destruction only. It didn't save them from any future destruction. It didn't save the sheep in the Vietnam War destruction.
> ...



Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people, producing the fruit of it.

God's favor is what you're missing I think.  In covenant with God and Jesus covering sin that we may have a direct relationship with God as Adam did before sin entered.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> If the Gospel has already reached the whole world then that would prove God's audience were the only one's who were called.
> 
> Unless the "world" was the area around the Middle East.



Roman's 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Roman's 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE WORLD."



19I ask instead: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says: “I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation; I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.” 20And Isaiah boldly says: “I was found by those who did not seek Me; I revealed Myself to those who did not ask for Me.”

Would you say God's audience has heard the gospel then? Every single one of God's audience. Every single person that God wanted to hear his message.
How did God's audience in the South Pacific hear the gospel before 70AD?

Didn't you say on another thread that perhaps God has chose for some people not to hear?
If the gospel has reached the world, why continue to spread the gospel?  Maybe they forgot the gospel from when they were delivered it prior to 70AD.
Still though how do we explain how it was delivered if from man and not God to his audience before 70AD? Boats?

But we know that there are people that hear and don't understand.

"I will make you angry by a nation without understanding."


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Sure.  There was " the dead ones"  and there was the " sleep in Christ aka dead in Christ" ones and there was those that were alive and remained to His coming... All were joined together as one spiritual body.



But the ones alive at his coming didn't join the ones who were asleep in the ground. 
Those asleep in the ground went to heaven and those that were alive at His coming continued life on the earth.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 24, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> But the ones alive at his coming didn't join the ones who were asleep in the ground.
> Those asleep in the ground went to heaven and those that were alive at His coming continued life on the earth.



They joined in one body.  The church body.  They all,  dead and judged,  dead in Christ and alive in Christ were joined together as the New Testament church.


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## hobbs27 (Apr 24, 2017)

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

I think it unfair to force Matt. 24:14 to have a different definition of the two following texts.. What say you? 

Col. 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Romans 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


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## Artfuldodger (Apr 24, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
> 
> I think it unfair to force Matt. 24:14 to have a different definition of the two following texts.. What say you?
> 
> ...



That's what it says, it must be true then. The only way I can see that happening is the Holy Spirit spreading the word to God's audience. The Christians didn't have the means before 70AD to spread the Word to every person in the whole wide world.
If they did, and I'm not saying they didn't, many across the world have forgotten the message since then. Take the Native Americans if you will. They had forgot the Gospel by the time the Europeans arrived. 

Maybe every creature is everyone in the Creation(Israel) and the world was the same world that was flooded.

Since the flood was local and the destruction was local, it doesn't change much as to exactly who the gospel message had reached. It wouldn't have changed who receive salvation or who didn't. It's not like they had to be saved before the destruction of Jerusalem.


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