# Gentile Inclusion To Jewish Exclusion?



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

I'm reading a lot about the Gentiles being excluded. I'm not sure what it all means?

Matthew 10:5-7
5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Ephesians 2:11-13
11Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Ephesians 4:17
17So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, 18being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart;

Where did their ignorance come from? God, isolation, ears not opened, hearing message but not believing?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

I do know that many Gentiles were isolated and lived on other continents. 
Then there was the time before the Law was even given to Israel.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Romans 2:12-16
12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Were Gentiles judged the same as people under the Law?

Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

I've heard this explained as general vs. effectual calling which is confusing to me.


----------



## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm reading a lot about the Gentiles being excluded. I'm not sure what it all means?
> 
> Matthew 10:5-7
> 5These twelve Jesus sent out after instructing them: "Do not go in the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter any city of the Samaritans; 6but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7"And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'
> ...



Wrath due to original sin. You have heard of an eye for an eye. Well this is a PC way of describing the heart of fallen man. What actually happens is 40 eyes ( an in some cases many, many more) for one eye. This was practiced even within Christendom in the middle ages, it was definitely practiced by new world peoples and the British to North America in the 1600s and perhaps up to the 19th century as europeans pushed to colonize from the east to the interior and out to the North American west. ( I say the British, but also most likely the French and Spaniards also.)

It was most like practiced by Christians against Christians in Central America in the 80s and perhaps 80 eyes for one pair might be "collateral damage" said in a PC way today. 

So where does this PC, sugar coating of evil, comes from if not hardness of heart caused by wrath...?


----------



## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:12-16
> 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
> 
> Were Gentiles judged the same as people under the Law?
> ...



The world is not cursed. The curse to it was removed for Noah.  So the invisible qualities of God can be assumed by his handy work or nature---which is virgin, or restored to purity. Nature is not God, but as God's creation we can figure out some attributes of God and possibly  for the order  of the world, we have no excuse but to assume order in all things, from the physical to the spiritual, to the moral etc... regards God. This would be general calling.

Effectual calling would be of a different design whereby  from God's ministry into the world , other than by the creation of the world, He reveals  of Himself or of his character directly as opposed to indirectly. ie: In the accounts of Adam and Eve, Abraham, Moses, the prophets, Jesus, the Apostles, the saints,  and which includes all kinds of relationships God might entertain to have with the faithful and the lost... today, in the hear and now...

In the church today it can be answered prayer, the words of a prophet, the walk of faith, and I suspect doing and living what is His will for you.... And so effectual calling is different for everyone, yet similar to all.

Maybe.


----------



## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 2:12-16
> 12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
> 
> Were Gentiles judged the same as people under the Law?
> ...




 Quote]: Were Gentiles judged the same as people under the Law? [End Quote.

Depends who was judging maybe. If judged by man yes definitely. If judged or assessed by God I'm not certain they were all judged in a stereo typical way.

If the gentiles could know faith from  a relationship with God through the spiritual contemplation of nature-- some gentiles had to be good people and possibly "gooder" than Gordo, who's claim to "goodness" might only be his grace given toe hold in the christian kingdom.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Romans 8:23
Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.

What is the "redemption of our bodies?"


----------



## gordon 2 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:23
> Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
> 
> What is the "redemption of our bodies?"



I would assume that it means bodies not directed towards or having a trajectory towards corruption, and death. But I'm sure someone will pipe in with what scripture says....


----------



## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:23
> Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
> 
> What is the "redemption of our bodies?"



What version uses plural (bodies) and why? That's an incorrect interpretation.

It doesn't matter the version, I just looked up, about half are wrong.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> What version uses plural (bodies) and why? That's an incorrect interpretation.
> 
> It doesn't matter the version, I just looked up, about half are wrong.



Either way, what does it mean?


----------



## hobbs27 (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Either way, what does it mean?



The body of Christ is one body made up of many.

Verse 23: "[Plural] We [the remnant] ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely the Spirit, yes [plural] we ourselves groan [in birth pangs] while [plural] we are earnestly waiting for the adoption—the redemption of [plural] our [singular] body." Verses 18-23 concern the old creation giving birth to the new creation, the body of Moses transforming into the body of Christ which would be manifested when God through Jesus made it clear who (Christians or national Israel) comprised that new created body (cf. Dan. 7:22)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

hobbs27 said:


> The body of Christ is one body made up of many.
> 
> Verse 23: "[Plural] We [the remnant] ourselves also who have the firstfruits, namely the Spirit, yes [plural] we ourselves groan [in birth pangs] while [plural] we are earnestly waiting for the adoption—the redemption of [plural] our [singular] body." Verses 18-23 concern the old creation giving birth to the new creation, the body of Moses transforming into the body of Christ which would be manifested when God through Jesus made it clear who (Christians or national Israel) comprised that new created body (cf. Dan. 7:22)



I've read that Israel & the Jews referred to themselves as the Creation. We know that Paul was explaining the coming together of the Old Jews/Israel  or believing remnant of Israel(Creation) and the Gentiles to form the New Israel-New Creation. (Christians or national Israel) in book of Romans.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Isaiah 26:16-19
O LORD, they sought You in distress; They could only whisper a prayer, Your chastening was upon them. As the pregnant woman approaches the time to give birth, She writhes and cries out in her labor pains, Thus were we before You, O LORD. We were pregnant, we writhed in labor, We gave birth, as it seems, only to wind. We could not accomplish deliverance for the earth, Nor were inhabitants of the world born. Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

In the Book of Romans Paul is explaining how the old creation becomes the new creation. The secret of the grafting in of the Gentiles. 
The Old Covenant creation joins the grafted in Gentiles to form the New Creation under the New Covenant.

This is a major teaching of Romans.

Romans 1:18-20
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

This makes more sense if Paul is using "Creation" to explain Israel. They had knowledge. They suppressed the truth for a lie. The Jews had made these same "exchanges" before.

Romans 1:23 reference to Psalm 106:20;
and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

Psalm 106:20
They exchanged their glorious God for an image of a bull, which eats grass.

Romans 2:1
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.

Romans 2:19-22
19and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, 20a corrector of the foolish, a teacher of the immature, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and of the truth, 21you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?

The Jew were to be teachers, they were suppose to show the way to the world. They were judging others when they themselves had failed to keep the Law.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

In Romans 1, perhaps it is a group of local Gentiles, who suppressed and exchanged the truth for a lie. World could be the world of the Middle East.

Regardless  Paul is turning judging others back on Israel. The Psalms example was to show that they did the same things. Later in chapter 2 we see Paul showing Jews they were suppose to be teaching and were doing these same things(sins) giving examples of stealing, adultery, etc.
Israel was just as guilty as the pagan idol worshipers. Perhaps even more so as they were suppose to the world how to live.

I think that Christians today can learn a lot from these early chapters of Romans regardless of how they believe. We as Christians are to show the world how to live, yet we steal and commit adultery. We are equally as guilty but if we read on in Romans a plan or secret is revealed for salvation.


----------



## RH Clark (Apr 1, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Romans 8:23
> Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption to sonship, the redemption of our bodies.
> 
> What is the "redemption of our bodies?"



Being born again we have already received the firstfruits of salvation, adoption as sons,and the indwelling Spirit of God but only when we receive our mortal bodies quickened, when corruption has put on incorruption will we possess all sonship involves.


----------



## welderguy (Apr 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Being born again we have already received the firstfruits of salvation, adoption as sons,and the indwelling Spirit of God but only when we receive our mortal bodies quickened, when corruption has put on incorruption will we possess all sonship involves.



This⬆⬆


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

RH Clark said:


> Being born again we have already received the firstfruits of salvation, adoption as sons,and the indwelling Spirit of God but only when we receive our mortal bodies quickened, when corruption has put on incorruption will we possess all sonship involves.



Would you say we are in the kingdom, but not yet in the Kingdom? 

What about Romans 8:19
For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.

What creation is waiting for the children of God to be revealed?

Romans 8:20
For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

What creation was this done to by the will of the one who subjected it? Keep in mind that Paul is only reiterating Old Testament scripture such as Isaiah chapters 43 and 44.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Romans 8:21
that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God.

"Israel, perhaps remnant, will join the grafted in Gentiles and become children of God.
If they, creation, do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in."

Romans 11:25-27
25For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery-- so that you will not be wise in your own estimation-- that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB." 27"THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

"Creation"

Romans 11:2
God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

"Creation"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption to sonship; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises.

"Creation, knowledge"

Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.

"Inclusion"

Romans 9:24-26
24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?
25As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"26and, "In the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they will be called 'children of the living God.'"

"Inclusion" No longer stranger to the promises and without hope and God.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

"exclusion"

Israel-Creation, knowledge, exchanging the truth for a lie, God for the image of a bull, remnant chosen, others Jews blinded(exclusion), Gentiles grafted in(inclusion), old creation grafted back in, NEW CREATION, New Covenant, no longer Jew or Gentile, no longer Gentiles as strangers to the promise and without God. Adam-old creation, Jesus/2nd Adam-new creation, Adam-physical, Jesus/2nd Adam-spiritual.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Word with God, Creation, Adam, sin, Law, Law as shadow, Law given to creation, creation can't keep it, never could, Law proves sin, Law shows need for Messiah, Old Testament prophesies coming Messiah, Messiah/Word comes, creation rejects, exchanges truth for a lie, remnant chosen from creation, rest broken off/hardened(exclusion), Gentiles grafted in(inclusion), New Creation/Israel created, fullness of Gentiles grafted in, Jews eyes opened, grafted back in, both groups belong to the Creation, Creation renewed, Gentiles are no longer strangers to the covenants made with the old creation, New Covenant, includes believing Jews and Gentiles, no longer Jew or Gentile, true children of God finally revealed, true heirs of Abraham and co-heirs of Jesus finally revealed through Paul's secret, God reveals through Paul.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Apr 1, 2016)

Borrowed from Hobbs;

Old Creation, Law, physical, death

New Creation, Jesus, spiritual, life

New Creation set free by the liberty that came from the blood of Jesus!


----------



## RH Clark (Apr 2, 2016)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say we are in the kingdom, but not yet in the Kingdom?
> 
> What about Romans 8:19
> For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
> ...



Creation refers to this earth which was made subject to the curse by reason of Adam's choice. All of creation was given over to Adam in Genesis when God told him to have dominion over all the earth and subdue it,Gen.1:28-30.


----------



## hobbs27 (Apr 2, 2016)

Romans 8 shows the transformation of old Covenant into New Covenant . 

The identity of the creation harmonizes with Old Covenant Israel as rational, intelligent mankind who were in need of deliverance - real deliverance from the bondage of real sin-death, and this through the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ.

That group of first century saints, known as the remnant, the bride, were also the first fruits.


----------



## hobbs27 (Apr 2, 2016)

* notice here:23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

The adoption was the resurrection according to Paul..But the promise was given to and belonged to Israel after the flesh.( flesh) is always old Covenant, while ( Spirit) is new.


Skip over to Romans 9:1-4 for proof of who the promise of resurrection was to.
 I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen[a] according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises;


----------

