# I want to believe.



## jebaneezer (Dec 15, 2010)

Men wrote the books of the bible. Right? Through gods guidence? If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will. How are we for sure that these men put this bible together exactly the way god said. Why are their books banned from the bible? How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned. These are just a pinch of the questions that run thru my head that can only be answered thru the phrase im always told "by faith". I was raised a christian, i have been baptized, but just cant wrapp my heart around the faith thing . I need facts i guess. Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited. I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> Men wrote the books of the bible. Right? Through gods guidence? If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will. How are we for sure that these men put this bible together exactly the way god said. Why are their books banned from the bible? How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned. These are just a pinch of the questions that run thru my head that can only be answered thru the phrase im always told "by faith". I was raised a christian, i have been baptized, but just cant wrapp my heart around the faith thing . I need facts i guess. Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited. I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.



Ever see the movie "The Matrix"?  Do you want to take the Blue Pill or the Red Pill?


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## jebaneezer (Dec 15, 2010)

Sorry, no i havent actually seen it.


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> Sorry, no i havent actually seen it.



Never mind The Matrix, then.   Why do you think it's so necessary to believe in a religion, any religion?


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## ambush80 (Dec 15, 2010)

I'll tell you one thing that is for certain. In order to believe that the Bible is true, you will have to believe that the Bible is true because it says so in the Bible.  If you can do that then you will be a fine Christian.


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## Six million dollar ham (Dec 15, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.



Nope.


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## Havana Dude (Dec 15, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> Men wrote the books of the bible. Right? Through gods guidence? If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will. How are we for sure that these men put this bible together exactly the way god said. Why are their books banned from the bible? How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned. These are just a pinch of the questions that run thru my head that can only be answered thru the phrase im always told "by faith". I was raised a christian, i have been baptized, but just cant wrapp my heart around the faith thing . I need facts i guess. Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited. I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.





ambush80 said:


> Never mind The Matrix, then.   Why do you think it's so necessary to believe in a religion, any religion?



No where in the OP will you find the word religion. Why are you so hung up on the word religion?


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## Huntinfool (Dec 16, 2010)

Probably the best place to find a reason to believe in God is not the athiest and agnostic section of this forum....don't you think?


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## rjcruiser (Dec 16, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will.


Incorrect assumption...but that is another discussion 



			
				jebaneezer said:
			
		

> Why are their books banned from the bible?


Because they contain error.



			
				jebaneezer said:
			
		

> How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned.


From prophecy and ancient texts that have been discovered.



			
				jebaneezer said:
			
		

> Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited.



They are mentioned in the Bible...but there are many things that you believe are true that aren't mentioned in the Bible.  Just because it isn't in the Bible doesn't make the Bible false.

If you really want to look into the subject matter at hand...I suggest this book.

http://www.google.com/products/cata...senitz&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=1051024189363132083#


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Probably the best place to find a reason to believe in God is not the athiest and agnostic section of this forum....don't you think?




Au contraire.  When you can exclude all the reasons not to believe, what do you have left?


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Havana Dude said:


> No where in the OP will you find the word religion. Why are you so hung up on the word religion?




You're right.  I'll re-phrase: What's so important about believing in the God of the Bible?  

Furthermore, have you researched any of the other descriptions of God and applied the same scrutiny to them?


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## dawg2 (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Au contraire.  When you can exclude all the reasons not to believe, what do you have left?



Valid point.  Also a hazardous road for some people to travel.  It can establish doubt and more questions.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Au contraire.  When you can exclude all the reasons not to believe, what do you have left?



You can only exclude the reasons not to believe in your own thought process.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> You're right.  I'll re-phrase: What's so important about believing in the God of the Bible?


Meaning.Morality.Destiny/Destination.Origin.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 16, 2010)

Jebaneezer go start this thread in the spiritual forum.. there are many wise men of God there that can assist you with the correct answer. do not give up on God just yet. you may think maybe there isnt a God but God has planted a seed in you and he will grow it you just have to listen to his word..find the answer for yourself and dont take any mans opinion... come talk it over with the many believers on here and we will try to guide you and show you the way.


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## davidstaples (Dec 16, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> God has planted a seed in you and he will grow it..



And one day you too will give birth to a watermelon.


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## ugadawg88 (Dec 16, 2010)

You jeban this is not an uncommon feeling or thought process. I believe everyone goes through this, believer or non-believer. I would like to touch on your evolution question... I am a believer and fully believe in evolution. Things have to evolve and adapt to their surroundings, if they didn't, everything would be extinct. Of course there are animals and plants who develop certain attributes that they need, and sort of in a way "weed-out" the things they no longer need. Take the human appendix for example, we probably needed it at one time, but over time we have evolved to where we no longer need it. As for dinosaurs, Job 40 actually talks about the Brachiosaurus which is referred to as the behemoth. Check it out... Don't let anyone make this decision for you... I fully believe that if we did not continually question God, then there would be no point to being a follower of Jesus. There are some who say you should not question God... I don't want to be a robot, and say "o well , i guess I should just be content in what I know now." NO WAY! Don't be ashamed to be in the position you are in, don't be scared. Everyone goes through this. You have probably never heard of this fella named Jim Rayburn but he has a quote that I love so here it is, I feel like it sort of pertains to your situation, "Everyone has the right to know the truth about Jesus Christ.They have the right to know who He is, a right to know He's done for them, a right to know how they relate to that, a right to know Him personally. Furthermore, they have a right to make their own choice of Him." Man I wish Jim Rayburn and C.S. Lewis were alive today to sit and talk with you and some of the others on here.


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## mattech (Dec 16, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Probably the best place to find a reason to believe in God is not the athiest and agnostic section of this forum....don't you think?



Kinda what I was thinking. It's like going into a crack house and asking if drugs are ok.


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## Huntinfool (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Au contraire.  When you can exclude all the reasons not to believe, what do you have left?



So, "I believe because I've exhausted all reasons NOT to believe"?

Seems a whole lot like the logic that "the razor" uses, doesn't it?  You guys don't like that argument at all.

If you want to believe in something, do you set out to prove it first or do you set out to disprove it and then believe simply because you failed to disprove? 

Kind of silly don't you think?


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## jebaneezer (Dec 16, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Probably the best place to find a reason to believe in God is not the athiest and agnostic section of this forum....don't you think?



My thinking was, where would i get the most info on the subject? From a forum of believers you doesnt really talk about weather god is real or not because they all believe he is or a forum where it is quite often debated. Mya have been wrong on thinking that but as it is stated in the the bible " man is not perfect".


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## Huntinfool (Dec 16, 2010)

So....then why would you believe the logic of a bunch of non-perfect people about whether God exists?

You cannot prove God exists to anyone but yourself.  I can show you instances of miracles and you can discount them as some natural phenomenon or coincedense.  If irrefutable proof is what you're looking for, you're in for a long quest my friend.

Sounds like you've got some tugging going on in your heart.  But your brain won't let you believe it.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 16, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> Jebaneezer go start this thread in the spiritual forum.. there are many wise men of God there that can assist you with the correct answer. do not give up on God just yet. you may think maybe there isnt a God but God has planted a seed in you and he will grow it you just have to listen to his word..find the answer for yourself and dont take any mans opinion... come talk it over with the many believers on here and we will try to guide you and show you the way.



Good, considerate thoughts.


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## stringmusic (Dec 16, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> My thinking was, where would i get the most info on the subject? From a forum of believers you doesnt really talk about weather god is real or not because they all believe he is or a forum where it is quite often debated. Mya have been wrong on thinking that but as it is stated in the the bible " man is not perfect".



your exactly right.


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> So....then why would you believe the logic of a bunch of non-perfect people about whether God exists?
> 
> You cannot prove God exists to anyone but yourself.  I can show you instances of miracles and you can discount them as some natural phenomenon or coincedense.  If irrefutable proof is what you're looking for, you're in for a long quest my friend.
> 
> Sounds like you've got some tugging going on in your heart.  But your brain won't let you believe it.



That's right.  This is an situation where it's best not to let your brain get involved.



Huntinfool said:


> So, "I believe because I've exhausted all reasons NOT to believe"?
> 
> Seems a whole lot like the logic that "the razor" uses, doesn't it?  You guys don't like that argument at all.
> 
> ...



Yes, Occam's Razor is a bad position to work from.  I think you should set out to prove it and disprove it with equal vigor.



Gabassmaster said:


> Jebaneezer go start this thread in the spiritual forum.. there are many wise men of God there that can assist you with the correct answer. do not give up on God just yet. you may think maybe there isnt a God but God has planted a seed in you and he will grow it you just have to listen to his word..find the answer for yourself and dont take any mans opinion... come talk it over with the many believers on here and we will try to guide you and show you the way.




Which one is it?  Blue or red?



dawg2 said:


> Valid point.  Also a hazardous road for some people to travel.  It can establish doubt and more questions.



And that's not a good thing, why?


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> That's right.  This is an situation where it's best not to let your brain get involved.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



because  there is a burning hejj


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> because  there is a burning hejj




Prove it. And in doing so, you will illustrate to the OP exactly what I was talking about in my first response.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 16, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Prove it. And in doing so, you will illustrate to the OP exactly what I was talking about in my first response.



its wrote down in the Bible


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## ambush80 (Dec 16, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> its wrote down in the Bible



And there it is:  "Wrote down in the Bible."  Thank's for playin'.

Honestly, Jeb, There are some very intelligent believers on here but at the end of the day, all of the apologetics (which, by the way doesn't actually occur here, it's just another place to quote scripture, despite the name of the sub-section) the sentiment that Gabassmaster expressed, in his own very quaint way, is what it boils down to.  

Now, what is that burning itch in the back of your brain?  Is it that you want to believe in the Bible because the Bible tells you to?  Or is it that you are suspicious of the Bible because it uses itself as the ultimate source of its legitimacy?


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 17, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> And there it is:  "Wrote down in the Bible."  Thank's for playin'.
> 
> Honestly, Jeb, There are some very intelligent believers on here but at the end of the day, all of the apologetics (which, by the way doesn't actually occur here, it's just another place to quote scripture, despite the name of the sub-section) the sentiment that Gabassmaster expressed, in his own very quaint way, is what it boils down to.
> 
> Now, what is that burning itch in the back of your brain?  Is it that you want to believe in the Bible because the Bible tells you to?  Or is it that you are suspicious of the Bible because it uses itself as the ultimate source of its legitimacy?



the bible dosent Command you to believe


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## Six million dollar ham (Dec 17, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> the bible dosent Command you to believe



The parts about not burning in he(( being made possible only by believing and salvation, combined with the part about no other gods before me and so forth compel one to do so though.  So basically you're incorrect.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 17, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> The parts about not burning in he(( being made possible only by believing and salvation, combined with the part about no other gods before me and so forth compel one to do so though.  So basically you're incorrect.



dont you know God gave us free will to choose where we go???? so basically your incorrect he just tells us the conciquences


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 17, 2010)

Rev 3:20  	Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Rev 3:21	 	To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


Rev 3:22	 	He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


that is not a command... its an invitation


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## stringmusic (Dec 17, 2010)

> Honestly, Jeb, There are some very intelligent believers on here but at the end of the day, all of the apologetics (which, by the way doesn't actually occur here, it's just another place to quote scripture, despite the name of the sub-section)



Apologetics is the seasoning, The Gospel of Jesus is the main course.


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## Land45 (Dec 17, 2010)

May I submitt my thoughts on this? It's kinda lengthy..but it's just something that I titled "Life Without Blinders". No direct scripture quotes...just something I have been working on.


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## Six million dollar ham (Dec 17, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> dont you know God gave us free will to choose where we go???? so basically your incorrect he just tells us the conciquences



Then that includes the free will to choose to not believe.  This means eternity in fire.  Not a very loving deity, imho.  

So why does God hate people, if he's indeed real?


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## stringmusic (Dec 17, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Then that includes the free will to choose to not believe.  This means eternity in fire.  Not a very loving deity, imho.
> 
> So why does God hate people, if he's indeed real?



Remember the thread "God is a meany pants"?


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## Land45 (Dec 17, 2010)

LIFE; WITHOUT BLINDERS... Deep within; a man does not attract that which he wants, but that which he is. There is darkness and there is light, there is good and there is evil, there are no fences, no in-between, you are either hot or cold. 

As he thinks, so he is; as he continues to think, so he will remain. Ones mind may be compared to that of a garden, which may be wisely cultivated or allowed to run wild, but whether cultivated or not; it must and will bring forth seed. If no useful seeds are put into it, then an abundance of useless weed-seeds will fall; and will continue to produce their kind. 

Every thought-seed sown, or allowed to fall into the mind, and taken root, produces its own, blooming sooner or later into its own fruitage of opportunity…good thoughts bear good fruit, bad thoughts bad fruit. As the reaper of his own harvest, one learns by suffering and bliss. As one enters and another leaves, one is seen by the taste one leaves in another’s mouth. 

To desire is to obtain; to aspire is to achieve...your “vision” is the promise of what you shall one day be; your “ideal” is the prophecy of what you shall at last one day unveil…in persons; or human affairs there are efforts and there results, and the strength of the effort is the measure of the result. You can not persevere alone; as long as you draw breath you contain a spirit, give all glory to your creator…you are never alone, only by one’s choice. Once the door is closed it can not be opened. 

One, who has conquered weakness…and has put away all selfish thoughts, belongs to neither the oppressor nor the oppressed…he is free. A man can only rise, conquer, and achieve by lifting up his thoughts. He can only remain weak and miserable by refusing to lift up his thoughts. Achievement, of whatever kind, is the crown of effort. Clear your mind, surrender your heart, love unselfishly, remain humble and taste true spiritual-soulful freedom. Flesh is temporary but the soul is eternal. 

The soul….attracts that which it secretly harbors; that which it loves and that which it fears; it falls to the level of its desires---and circumstances are the means by which the soul receives its own. The world will infect the mind, corrupt the heart, rip the flesh, and cause destructive damage to one’s chance at eternal life. Spiritual battles are inevitable. Love, trust, prayer, obedience, and faith…never take your eyes off the Lord or you will surely fail. 

Dreams; you cannot travel within and stand still without. We were all nothing, until the breath of life was breathed into us giving us a spirit and a soul. Death is guaranteed; the spirit will return from where it was given; the soul goes to whom one served while in the flesh. You must endure worldly trials and tribulations; we all have our own valleys to travel; but it takes two mountains to make one valley. Prayer and faith as one supports the other, one can not stand with out the other. Your final destination is your choice. 

You did not evolve from pond scum; your ancestors did not swing by their tails from trees. You were not given the freedom to think for yourself, to make decisions, to have a conscious by chance, to know right from wrong, to have emotions; The time is near, wake up and remove your blinders, take a good look around you, your environment, the world today, the economy, death is unavoidable. One has emotions, feelings, which means there is a conscious, which equals spirit and soul; Search yourself, and your own consciousness before you speak against another brother or sister. Salvation is the beginning of life; eternal life...it's your choice.

Just my thoughts...Peace and Blessings to you all!


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## ted_BSR (Dec 17, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> Men wrote the books of the bible. Right? Through gods guidence? If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will. How are we for sure that these men put this bible together exactly the way god said. Why are their books banned from the bible? How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned. These are just a pinch of the questions that run thru my head that can only be answered thru the phrase im always told "by faith". I was raised a christian, i have been baptized, but just cant wrapp my heart around the faith thing . I need facts i guess. Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited. I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.



Ask God to soften your heart, ask Him to reveal Himself to you. Then follow what compells your heart. Science and logic will always lead you away because they are merely languages invented by man to explain what we cannot comprehend.

Read the Bible. Pray. I will pray for you too Jeb. 

Matthew 7:7


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> Sorry, no i havent actually seen it.



There is scripture about dinosaurs in the OT.

Pray for God to help your unbelief and to reveal Himself to you, He will.

I was married to a marine who served in VN, by the way. He is in heaven now, though. And I will see him there one day. If for no other reason, that's why I believe. But I do have many other reasons.

Our pea brains cannot fathom all the works of God. Perhaps the dinosaurs (just for example) were here to carry seeds all around the earth and poop up the trees and grass and the bushes and we came later. It says that a day to God is like one thousand years. Evolution is only a theory. Part may be true. We don't know. I don't really care nor do I need proof. I know that I have a spiritual part of me that belongs to God, I do know that.

I will cut this short but you get the idea. Just ask God to reveal Himself to you.
I will be praying for you too.

Thanks for serving our country with your life!!
God bless you!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Then that includes the free will to choose to not believe.  This means eternity in fire.  Not a very loving deity, imho.
> 
> So why does God hate people, if he's indeed real?



God doesn't hate anyone. He chooses for all to be saved, but since He promised us free will, He gives us just that. You can choose the high road or the low road....it's all up to you. He tells you about the choices, right? You're given the options, right? What else do you expect? Forced to go to church? Forced to do good? Forced to not sin? Forced to go to heaven? kickin' and screamin the whole way? Sheesh!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> dont you know God gave us free will to choose where we go???? so basically your incorrect he just tells us the conciquences



I agree, sir!


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Man after the first post, I see the debil done jumped up on this thread....LOL....that should at least prove there are demons....LOL


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## Six million dollar ham (Dec 22, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> God doesn't hate anyone. He chooses for all to be saved, but since He promised us free will, He gives us just that. You can choose the high road or the low road....it's all up to you. He tells you about the choices, right? You're given the options, right? What else do you expect? Forced to go to church? Forced to do good? Forced to not sin? Forced to go to heaven? kickin' and screamin the whole way? Sheesh!



Why are you so frustrated?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 22, 2010)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Why are you so frustrated?



Something about demons makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck, I guess.


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## BillyLee1956 (Dec 26, 2010)

One of the biggest problems (of course they will say "I have no problems except with you Bible thumpers"), non-Christians have is the changes they will have to make in their lifestyles if they accept Christ as their personal savior.
Becoming a Christian is actually the easy part...but LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE is where the rubber hits the road. And this is tough to do...but Paul preaches of the holy spirit that enters us and gives us power to recognize satan's lies and trickery...thus, "greater is he that is within me than he who is without of me".
Having been an agnostic (and a very smart mouthed one too) for many years before conversion, led me to observe the many arguments and attacks on Christianity by unbelievers. I am well aware of their routines and am in a position to see it coming way-y-y-y down the road.
Living the Christian life demands obedience and submission to the rules of an unseen force, which they laughingly refer to as preposterous. This obedience, in itself is contrary to human nature. Human nature means doing it the way I want to do it, my way, and if some nutty 'bible' tells me to live otherwise...then to hash with that absurdity. I will do as I please and set my OWN moral code and anybody who doesn't like it can jump over the moon.
..."as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the coming of the son of God." (the next agnostic reply is "there was no Noah..prove there was such a man and prove there was an ark, and prove this, prove that).
We, as witnessing Christians, have a duty to do only witnessing.  Witness only and merely hope that the agnostic or atheist is convicted of the need for salvation resulting in a personal experience with the spirit of Jesus Christ.
I have been there..I've heard it all and have said most all of it. There is no 'debating' with an agnostic. The lord of this world, satan, has them trapped in a lead pipe cinch and they do not even know it. Worst of all, they don't even know that they don't know.
Fortunately for me, there were events that literally forced me into finding out more about Christ and one day I realized how blinded I had been. And oh man, satan went crazy in my conscience telling me all the 'reasons' I should abandon all this "Christian nonsense" and get back to living. (of course that meant "living the life HE demands")
I read posts in this area and it sounds so much like the hokum I used to spout myself.
We all owe a sin debt death....the reason I don't have to pay mine is because Christ stood up and said...."Father, don't hold this idiot accountable for his transgressions against you, don't allow him to choose eternal separation from you....I will pay his sin debt myself. Send me into darkness in his place so that he may live eternally with us"
I am very happy that I will not receive what I deserve.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 27, 2010)

BillyLee1956 said:


> One of the biggest problems (of course they will say "I have no problems except with you Bible thumpers"), non-Christians have is the changes they will have to make in their lifestyles if they accept Christ as their personal savior.
> Becoming a Christian is actually the easy part...but LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE is where the rubber hits the road. And this is tough to do...but Paul preaches of the holy spirit that enters us and gives us power to recognize satan's lies and trickery...thus, "greater is he that is within me than he who is without of me".
> Having been an agnostic (and a very smart mouthed one too) for many years before conversion, led me to observe the many arguments and attacks on Christianity by unbelievers. I am well aware of their routines and am in a position to see it coming way-y-y-y down the road.
> Living the Christian life demands obedience and submission to the rules of an unseen force, which they laughingly refer to as preposterous. This obedience, in itself is contrary to human nature. Human nature means doing it the way I want to do it, my way, and if some nutty 'bible' tells me to live otherwise...then to hash with that absurdity. I will do as I please and set my OWN moral code and anybody who doesn't like it can jump over the moon.
> ...



Amen...I ask daily for wisdom and I receive it!
I am guilty. I am humbled by a babe in swaddling clothes who is born to die for my sins.


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## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2010)

BillyLee1956 said:


> One of the biggest problems (of course they will say "I have no problems except with you Bible thumpers"), non-Christians have is the changes they will have to make in their lifestyles if they accept Christ as their personal savior.
> Becoming a Christian is actually the easy part...but LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE is where the rubber hits the road. And this is tough to do...but Paul preaches of the holy spirit that enters us and gives us power to recognize satan's lies and trickery...thus, "greater is he that is within me than he who is without of me".
> Having been an agnostic (and a very smart mouthed one too) for many years before conversion, led me to observe the many arguments and attacks on Christianity by unbelievers. I am well aware of their routines and am in a position to see it coming way-y-y-y down the road.
> Living the Christian life demands obedience and submission to the rules of an unseen force, which they laughingly refer to as preposterous. This obedience, in itself is contrary to human nature. Human nature means doing it the way I want to do it, my way, and if some nutty 'bible' tells me to live otherwise...then to hash with that absurdity. I will do as I please and set my OWN moral code and anybody who doesn't like it can jump over the moon.
> ...



Sounds like your conversion was an act of desperation.  In your vulnerable state you could have gone in any direction and latched onto anything that you believed would make it better and having done so, you would swear just the same that it saved you.  Have you ever hear someone tell you "I had cancer, and I went to a spiritualist and she rubbed a crystal on me and I was cured." or some such thing?  They will testify to the true and real power of crystal rubbing just as you do about Christ.  Do you not see how you both share the exact same position?  Conversion caused by duress just isn't that convincing of a testimony in my opinion.


----------



## BillyLee1956 (Dec 28, 2010)

ambush80 said:


> Sounds like your conversion was an act of desperation.  In your vulnerable state you could have gone in any direction and latched onto anything that you believed would make it better and having done so, you would swear just the same that it saved you.  Have you ever hear someone tell you "I had cancer, and I went to a spiritualist and she rubbed a crystal on me and I was cured." or some such thing?  They will testify to the true and real power of crystal rubbing just as you do about Christ.  Do you not see how you both share the exact same position?  Conversion caused by duress just isn't that convincing of a testimony in my opinion.


Yep, I have parroted those themes...exactly as you have testified here. Same old routines, same old denials, that have been around for centuries.
As I stated, there is no debating with an agnostic, they always have a "comeback" or a "reason" why it wasn't what "you thought it was". I know all of 'em.
Nope ,I do not share the same position as the person rubbing a crystal ball and curing cancer. I tried all that stuff, all philosophies, all kinds of "isms", all kinds of new age, old age, inner age, outer age, you name it.
It all fails...it always will fail. The god of this world, satan, will convince many to proclaim loudly how it "saved" them.
Only the God of the world hereafter knows, though.
No debates, no debates, with you ambush80.  I hope you have that fulfilling experience before your last breath...I cannot imagine facing the hereafter without an absolute guarantee of what is ahead.
By the way, ambush80, there is quite a difference between "duress"(your word) and "stress".
Stay happy.


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 28, 2010)

BillyLee1956 said:


> Yep, I have parroted those themes...exactly as you have testified here. Same old routines, same old denials, that have been around for centuries.
> As I stated, there is no debating with an agnostic, they always have a "comeback" or a "reason" why it wasn't what "you thought it was". I know all of 'em.
> Nope ,I do not share the same position as the person rubbing a crystal ball and curing cancer. I tried all that stuff, all philosophies, all kinds of "isms", all kinds of new age, old age, inner age, outer age, you name it.
> It all fails...it always will fail. The god of this world, satan, will convince many to proclaim loudly how it "saved" them.
> ...



Whatever gets you through the night.  We all have to choose a path that we can believe in.  Peace to you as well.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

Huntinfool said:


> Probably the best place to find a reason to believe in God is not the athiest and agnostic section of this forum....don't you think?



Yeah go check out the thread on the other forum that cites the beauty of nature as proof that their God is real.


----------



## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> Amen...I ask daily for wisdom and I receive it!
> I am guilty. I am humbled by a babe in swaddling clothes who is born to die for my sins.



Human sacrifice to appease an invisible being... not good.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

jebaneezer said:


> Men wrote the books of the bible. Right? Through gods guidence? If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will. How are we for sure that these men put this bible together exactly the way god said. Why are their books banned from the bible? How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned. These are just a pinch of the questions that run thru my head that can only be answered thru the phrase im always told "by faith". I was raised a christian, i have been baptized, but just cant wrapp my heart around the faith thing . I need facts i guess. Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited. I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.



I would recommend going on youtube and watching some christian/atheist debates. Any with Christopher Hitchens are good. Decide for yourself which arguments you find more convincing. I also recommend the debate on the resurrection between William Lane Craig and Bart Ehrman.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> I would recommend going on youtube and watching some christian/atheist debates. Any with Christopher Hitchens are good. Decide for yourself which arguments you find more convincing. I also recommend the debate on the resurrection between William Lane Craig and Bart Ehrman.



and you go on and watch some of ravi zacharias


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## stringmusic (Dec 30, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah go check out the thread on the other forum that cites the beauty of nature as proof that their God is real.



Great another self taught know it all, who likes to poke, what he/she thinks is fun at people of faith, because we all know that people of faith havent reached the ultimate reality that atlashunter has pressumed upon himself/herself.


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## atlashunter (Dec 30, 2010)

Gabassmaster said:


> and you go on and watch some of ravi zacharias



I have. What do you think sets him apart from other christian apologists?


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## mtnwoman (Dec 31, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Human sacrifice to appease an invisible being... not good.



Well we all have to die, might as well make it for a good cause. I'd die for my children, too, if'n I knew it meant saving their lives....how's about you?


----------



## mtnwoman (Dec 31, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> Yeah go check out the thread on the other forum that cites the beauty of nature as proof that their God is real.



Actually it was a frog that evolved into an ape that evolved into a very creative artist that just happened to make everything on earth beautiful and work together to the inth...like the moon controlling the tide, that was an accident? And the rotation of the earth just at the right angle and the right speed rotating on it's axis.....all by accident.....alrighty then.

And BAM! here is the earth, now evolve yourselves.


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## mtnwoman (Dec 31, 2010)

atlashunter said:


> I would recommend going on youtube and watching some christian/atheist debates. Any with Christopher Hitchens are good. Decide for yourself which arguments you find more convincing. I also recommend the debate on the resurrection between William Lane Craig and Bart Ehrman.



I thought madeline day ohare was a priceless example of an atheist.....no condemnation for her hateful, mean spirited self.  I'm sure she'd love to beat me down, I wouldn't even bother to debate the matter.


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## atlashunter (Dec 31, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> Well we all have to die, might as well make it for a good cause. I'd die for my children, too, if'n I knew it meant saving their lives....how's about you?



Well I certainly wouldn't worship any entity that made it necessary for me to die to save my kids (not that I have any). You would have made a great Aztec.


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## atlashunter (Dec 31, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> Actually it was a frog that evolved into an ape that evolved into a very creative artist that just happened to make everything on earth beautiful and work together to the inth...like the moon controlling the tide, that was an accident? And the rotation of the earth just at the right angle and the right speed rotating on it's axis.....all by accident.....alrighty then.
> 
> And BAM! here is the earth, now evolve yourselves.



The difference is that scientists have physical evidence that backs up their claims. The best a theist can do when they aren't busy making truth claims based on nothing more than scripture is say that the processes scientists have discovered are actually part of God's toolbox. Anyone can make the claim that nature itself is evidence of their particular God.


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## atlashunter (Dec 31, 2010)

mtnwoman said:


> I thought madeline day ohare was a priceless example of an atheist.....no condemnation for her hateful, mean spirited self.  I'm sure she'd love to beat me down, I wouldn't even bother to debate the matter.



Of course you wouldn't. You've convinced yourself you already have all the answers.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 3, 2011)

Hello Jebaneezer, I suspect that most people find their self in your position at some point in time. I agree, considering your points, you may be at the right place.  Most here are probably experts on the subject because they do question things, cause inquisitive minds want to know. Most, on the other forumn, although they won't agree, don't question much, they just believe what they read, all of it including the maps. Whether devinely inspired by God or motivated by men, the bible tells of a beautiful story strangely hidden among all sorts of other stories.  Don't be detered from asking these guys questions. They will be glad to give their perspective. The result will be that you will be informed about the decission you have made, which in turn will cause you to stand firm in your beliefs, not like shifting sand. The only thing I would add is that it may take more time than you expect.


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## jebaneezer (Jan 3, 2011)

*Thanks*

Thanks for all you that have replied. Which ever way my search takes me i appreciate you all.


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## ambush80 (Jan 3, 2011)

jebaneezer said:


> Thanks for all you that have replied. Which ever way my search takes me i appreciate you all.




Best wishes with your search.  Leave no stone unturned.

_2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]" _

From the Gospel of Thomas, which you won't find in the modern Bible.  Might be worthwhile to find out how the Bible came to be in it's present form; why some things were put in and others taken out.

Be suspicious of anyone who says they have all the answers.  But you already seem to know that.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 3, 2011)

jebaneezer said:


> Men wrote the books of the bible. Right? Through gods guidence? If so, we know from reading the bible that men arnt perfect and god give them free will. How are we for sure that these men put this bible together exactly the way god said. Why are their books banned from the bible? How are we positive that god didnt want those perticular books banned or not banned. These are just a pinch of the questions that run thru my head that can only be answered thru the phrase im always told "by faith". I was raised a christian, i have been baptized, but just cant wrapp my heart around the faith thing . I need facts i guess. Theres too many un answered questions with evolution, and why isnt there anything in the bible about dinosours? We have proof they exited. I try to believe in god but just cant put my whole heart into it.  Am i the only one.[/Q UOTE]Bear with me while I try to address some points. Although men with good intent, have added their own assumptions to the bible in their biased translations. All you need to do is study what the first converts believed in Acts chp 2 to know what they first believed in. And yes books were banned as uninspired men chose which books to include which basically resulted in them throwing out everything that did not agree with their own beliefs. But hey, don't get discouraged, you are actually way farther ahead than you realize. The secret here is to understand why or what was the conflict that was raging. Don't settle for the answers that most give. Dig deeper, ask yourself what's missing in Acts chp 2. Now for "Faith", completly misunderstood by most of confessing Christians. Faith is not blind. After studying the bible for years, I have faith that what I now see or understand is true. But to believe anything just because someone says so or teaches his own translation and expects you to believe that, well that's not faith at all. Not your faith but someone else's. Lets say I put you and John S. in a field and said I was going to take this gun and start shooting at you and that you had to get out of this field to pass a test. But John said that the bullets were blanks, I suspect that you would not have faith in what John claimed and you would hit the dirt as soon as you heard all the shooting. But, if you inspected the gun completly and you saw that it was inoperable, only able to shoot blanks, then I suspect that you would have faith to walk right across that field inspite of all the shooting. As for dino's, Although I'm not convinced that they have proof, my only response is that at one time our atmosphere, based on the bible, which is debatable on this forumn, had a different atmosphere before the great flood of the bible. Men lived to 900 years old so wonder how big the reptiles got during this time if this theory is true.  I will address belief in God after I get a snack, back soon.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 3, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> I would recommend going on youtube and watching some christian/atheist debates. Any with Christopher Hitchens are good. Decide for yourself which arguments you find more convincing. I also recommend the debate on the resurrection between William Lane Craig and Bart Ehrman.



Because Youtube is real?  Wow. I don't have the answers, but I darn sure ain't looking for them on Youtube.


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## atlashunter (Jan 3, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> Because Youtube is real?  Wow. I don't have the answers, but I darn sure ain't looking for them on Youtube.



Yes the debates on youtube are real. Enjoy!

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<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/9V85OykSDT8?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/9V85OykSDT8?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-hnqo4_X7PE?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-hnqo4_X7PE?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/gVB9tdF1sDE?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/gVB9tdF1sDE?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZtZ5CWBmITQ?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ZtZ5CWBmITQ?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_o7MYV-YgaE?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_o7MYV-YgaE?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 3, 2011)

I have used this illustration before, How is it that women are accomadating to men, by chance, did we just get lucky. I see creator. Planets keeping their places, I see creator. Birth and formation of a child, I see creator. Let me say before I move on, being that this is the atheist forumn, that you may not see it the same way as I do, and I would respect that. Moving on, upon the awakening that their must be a magnificant creator or "God", man feels inclined to know more. He begans to search out truth. Man can't possibly know or understand the Glory of Almighty God and all the intricate details of how he holds it all together so mankind has no choice but to allow God to reveal himself to mankind.  Adam was made in the image of God but failed to represent God. What Adam failed to do, Jesus did so to the point that God said, "I am well pleased". So how did Jesus represent God's image to humanity. It can be understood by observing man and his ways. God called many different people to Shepherd his people, to serve the people. With the exception of a few, most instead of serving the people, made the people serve themselves. They made themselves as god's. Now over time, the Israelites surveyed their problems looking at the present as well as their fathers. They saw how they had been on a rollercoaster ride of good king- bad king- good king- bad king, never able to maintain a clear conscience before God. Everytime a good king died, they went back to their old ways. This is why they longed for the promise of an eternal king that would sit on Davids throne. One that would not die. So that their rollercoaster ride of good- bad- up and down, up and down would be replaced where every mountain was made low and every valley filled in, smooth walking, you might say. So, when Jesus came, what did he do? Instead of exalting himself, and milking his status for all it was worth, he humbled himself, and served the people to such an extent that they could not imagine, He gave his own life as foreordained in scriptures by God.  Jesus had faith that God would raise him from the dead just as the scriptures proclaimed. During his ministry, He spoke and demonstrated by his actions and words the "kingdom of God".  Jesus humbly went to the cross. Now one might say ,How does this reveal God's image or character to mankind. Because we find out that God is not a God with a big stick but a God of grace. Those who are tired of trying to be good enough, can rest from their work, resting completly in the finished work of Jesus.  Now for those who believe this to be true, do you believe that he is able to save you. Then put your faith in him and doubt no more. This is a short version of the "beautiful story" that is hid among all the other stories that I mentioned earlier. Now, I should comment since this is the atheist forumn, I realize that all this hinges on whether the bible is true or not. But ain't it a beautiful story


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## atlashunter (Jan 6, 2011)

The part about the planets caught my attention. Could you elaborate on what it is about their motions that indicates a creator to you? What I'm really wondering is if you saw a planet fall into a black hole or collide with another massive body, or get incenerated in a supernova would that also point to a creator for you? If there are features of this universe that tell us it has a creator, could there be a universe with features that would scream "no creator" and if so, what would those features be?


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## ted_BSR (Jan 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Yes the debates on youtube are real. Enjoy!
> 
> <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FhT4IENSwac?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FhT4IENSwac?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
> 
> ...



How old are you Atlas? Your faith in the internet suggests to me that your real life experience is limited.


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## ambush80 (Jan 7, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> How old are you Atlas? Your faith in the internet suggests to me that your real life experience is limited.



That's so funny.  There's a part in the Deconversion videos where someone says the EXACT same thing to him.  It really is a common tactic of those unable to attack the message.  Attack the messenger.

So funny.....


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> The part about the planets caught my attention. Could you elaborate on what it is about their motions that indicates a creator to you? What I'm really wondering is if you saw a planet fall into a black hole or collide with another massive body, or get incenerated in a supernova would that also point to a creator for you? If there are features of this universe that tell us it has a creator, could there be a universe with features that would scream "no creator" and if so, what would those features be?



 Sorry it took so long to get back and even more cause I don't have a reasonable answer but here's my opinion. What I see is that the planets keep their positions or places for lack of a better description. Some of your examples, I would not consider a screwup on God's part unless it killed life that he had created. Unless the planet has life, I see it like no more than a brick. Sometimes brickmasons break bricks for different reasons, not always a screwup. Things that would  point to no creator would be in total  K-os [. If that were so, we would not be here.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 7, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> That's so funny.  There's a part in the Deconversion videos where someone says the EXACT same thing to him.  It really is a common tactic of those unable to attack the message.  Attack the messenger.
> 
> So funny.....



If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.


----------



## atlashunter (Jan 7, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sorry it took so long to get back and even more cause I don't have a reasonable answer but here's my opinion. What I see is that the planets keep their positions or places for lack of a better description. Some of your examples, I would not consider a screwup on God's part unless it killed life that he had created. Unless the planet has life, I see it like no more than a brick. Sometimes brickmasons break bricks for different reasons, not always a screwup. Things that would  point to no creator would be in total  K-os [. If that were so, we would not be here.



That's an interesting perspective. It's a bit time and place specific isn't it? The time that we have been here in relation to the time the universe has been here is miniscule and it's a safe bet the time will come when we will be no more. You couldn't have been around during the formation of the solar system but if you had been I'm thinking it would have seemed a pretty chaotic place. We know there have been previous mass extinction events on this planet, most likely very violent ones. We don't know of any planets holding life getting eaten by a black hole or otherwise obliterated in the many ways that it could happen but we do now it isn't outside the realm of possibility in our universe. Just my thoughts but doesn't really strike me as a place that has us as a centerpiece.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 7, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> That's an interesting perspective. It's a bit time and place specific isn't it? The time that we have been here in relation to the time the universe has been here is miniscule and it's a safe bet the time will come when we will be no more. You couldn't have been around during the formation of the solar system but if you had been I'm thinking it would have seemed a pretty chaotic place. We know there have been previous mass extinction events on this planet, most likely very violent ones. We don't know of any planets holding life getting eaten by a black hole or otherwise obliterated in the many ways that it could happen but we do now it isn't outside the realm of possibility in our universe. Just my thoughts but doesn't really strike me as a place that has us as a centerpiece.


 You guys are quite the thinkers, I never realized how narrow minded I was till I started conversing with athiest. You guys pervoke me to think outside of the box, funny thing is that I already thought that I thought outside the box. Turns out, it was just a bigger box. I attribute my narrow mindness to the fact that I'm not searching for anything.


----------



## atlashunter (Jan 7, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> You guys pervoke me to think outside of the box,





Man I don't know if that was intended as a compliment but it's the best one I could ever get. There are so many thinkers that have helped me look at things in new and different ways, on the rare occasion I can do the same it's a joy. Whatever the differences in the beliefs we hold or conclusions we reach, if we are using our minds with honesty and courage and thinking for ourselves, we're on the right track IMO.


----------



## Six million dollar ham (Jan 8, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> If that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, I don't know what is.



Either way Ambush80 diagnosed this one accurately...you decided to ignore the topic at hand and attack the messenger.   Atlas really punked you there so I understand.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Jan 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> You guys are quite the thinkers, I never realized how narrow minded I was till I started conversing with athiest. You guys pervoke me to think outside of the box, funny thing is that I already thought that I thought outside the box. Turns out, it was just a bigger box. I attribute my narrow mindness to the fact that I'm not searching for anything.





atlashunter said:


> Man I don't know if that was intended as a compliment but it's the best one I could ever get. There are so many thinkers that have helped me look at things in new and different ways, on the rare occasion I can do the same it's a joy. Whatever the differences in the beliefs we hold or conclusions we reach, if we are using our minds with honesty and courage and thinking for ourselves, we're on the right track IMO.



 I was actually refering to all the atheist here, you included, especially since I was refering to our conversation. I have never met an athiest who has not been a deep thinker. I'm sure there are some, but I would expect that they don't frequent sites like this one.


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## ted_BSR (Jan 9, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Either way Ambush80 diagnosed this one accurately...you decided to ignore the topic at hand and attack the messenger.   Atlas really punked you there so I understand.



I can take it.


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## ambush80 (Jan 9, 2011)

1gr8bldr said:


> I was actually refering to all the atheist here, you included, especially since I was refering to our conversation. I have never met an athiest who has not been a deep thinker. I'm sure there are some, but I would expect that they don't frequent sites like this one.



Thinking for one's self is a difficult and rewarding pursuit.


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## meat-n-taters (Jul 18, 2011)

*If you are drowning*

If you are drowning and need to be saved from sure death if someone trows you a life line with a float attached to it would a person question what material the rope or float is made from where it came from?Would they say i cant use this i dont know all the facts about it so I would rather die.Or would they grab a hold of it with every thing they got without dobt and trust it unto salvation.Man doesn't know everything but it shouldn't keep him from grabbing a hold of the life line of Jesus


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## JFS (Jul 18, 2011)

meat-n-taters said:


> if someone trows you a life line with a float attached to it would a person question what material the rope or float is made from where it came from?



Nah, I can see the life preserver and life preservers comply with Archimedes law of buoyancy and you can pull on the rope with Newton's third law of motion.    

The choice may be more correctly between grasping the known and understood life preserver or praying for a whale to swallow you and spit you up on the beach.


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## meat-n-taters (Jul 18, 2011)

well at least prayer is in there some where.


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## stringmusic (Jul 18, 2011)

meat-n-taters said:


> well at least prayer is in there some where.



JFS doesn't pray(at least he hasn't lead on that he does), you see, JFS and the other agnostics and atheist in here don't know the answer to whether God exist or not, or whether Jesus Christ is the Saviour to the world, but somehow they are so smart and have this "vast knowledge" as to know that we are wrong in our assertions. Unlike the title of this thread, there are many people who simple do not _want_ to believe...... no matter what.


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## JFS (Jul 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> they are so smart and have this "vast knowledge" as to know that we are wrong in our assertions



Au contraire.  My criticism would not be that agnostics know so much more, it would be that none of us have that kind of knowledge as there is no reliable evidence for the proposition you advocate.  And given that the proposition itself is somewhat irrational and just one of many similar assertions that we have abandoned as false, the lack of evidence prevents me from adopting it as a default position.


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## stringmusic (Jul 18, 2011)

JFS said:


> Au contraire.  My criticism would not be that agnostics know so much more, it would be that none of us have that kind of kowledge as there is no reliable evidence for the proposition you advocate.


The "we don't know the answer but neither do you" gets nobody nowhere, which is right where an agnostic is. "No reliable" evidence? If it where that simple, wouldn't 95% of all believers change their mind?




> And given that the proposition itself is somewhat irrational and just one of many similar* assertions that we have abandoned as false*, the lack of evidence prevents me from adopting it as a default position.



You don't know, but you abandoned it as false?

As far as "lack of evidence", is there any evidence that you could possibly conjure up that would be sufficient for you to believe in the Judeo-Christian God?


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## atlashunter (Jul 18, 2011)

meat-n-taters said:


> If you are drowning and need to be saved from sure death if someone trows you a life line with a float attached to it would a person question what material the rope or float is made from where it came from?Would they say i cant use this i dont know all the facts about it so I would rather die.Or would they grab a hold of it with every thing they got without dobt and trust it unto salvation.Man doesn't know everything but it shouldn't keep him from grabbing a hold of the life line of Jesus



Your analogy reminds me of another one that is explained in a youtube video. I can't post it here because it contains a curse word but the gist of it is this.

Your being here is like being fished out of the river of non-existence by the universe. Rather than be grateful for being "saved" from non-existence for a finite period of time, religious people ask to live forever. It's their greed and ingratitude that forms the foundation of religion.

If anyone wants to see the video just shoot me a pm.


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## stringmusic (Jul 18, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Your analogy reminds me of another one that is explained in a youtube video. I can't post it here because it contains a curse word but the gist of it is this.
> 
> Your being here is like being fished out of the river of non-existence by the universe. Rather than be grateful for being "saved" from non-existence for a finite period of time, religious people ask to live forever. It's their greed and ingratitude that forms the foundation of religion.
> 
> If anyone wants to see the video just shoot me a pm.



How or why does the almighty universe choose who is and who isn't "fished" out of the river? Who or what am I supposed to be grateful towards? 

BTW, I would like to watch the video.


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## JFS (Jul 18, 2011)

> The "we don't know the answer but neither do you" gets nobody nowhere, which is right where an agnostic is.



I'm OK with that.  Integrity of the process is important to me.  We get to where we get to, but we should do so honestly and should not take shortcuts just because we wish for a certain answer.



> "No reliable" evidence? If it where that simple, wouldn't 95% of all believers change their mind?



I can't account for emotion, credulity, or wishful thinking.  People talk about a hole in their life that only god can fill.  No doubt there are things that many of us yearn for and your religion has been cleverly tailored to take advantage of that.  But it doesn't make it true.



> You don't know, but you abandoned it as false?



Not me personally, but if you look around there are and have been plenty of religions, all with their own revelations and sources of truth.  Yet you don't believe in Mithra, Baal, Zeus, Mazda, Quetzalcoatl or whoever.  Yet many people believed as fervently in those as you do now in Jesus.  I'm sure those people took comfort in the fact their neighbors believed as they did, but as a starting point there is no reason to think your religion is any different than the others unless there is proof to back it up.



> As far as "lack of evidence", is there any evidence that you could possibly conjure up that would be sufficient for you to believe in the Judeo-Christian God?



Absolutely.  There probably an infinite number of ways that god could reveal herself than would suffice.  If god wants people to know something I would think she could do so easily.  And in fact the lack of such actions are part of the reason why I find your stories so suspect.


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## JFS (Jul 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> is there any evidence that you could possibly conjure up that would be sufficient for you to believe in the Judeo-Christian God?



Shazaam, maybe this is the sign I have been waiting for:


http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-jesus-walmart-receipt,0,3388483.story


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> JFS doesn't pray(at least he hasn't lead on that he does), you see, JFS and the other agnostics and atheist in here don't know the answer to whether God exist or not, or whether Jesus Christ is the Saviour to the world, but somehow they are so smart and have this "vast knowledge" as to know that we are wrong in our assertions. Unlike the title of this thread, there are many people who simple do not _want_ to believe...... no matter what.



NOT saying you or anyone is wrong in any assertions or beliefs. Speaking for myself, I am looking to see if someone can offer up some explanation regarding religious beliefs or for things in the bible that I have not heard before. Maybe an unorthodox way of putting things into perspective along with some facts thrown in might start us heathens on a different path. I'd like to hear something fresh. I'd like to see some hard evidence that shows that I am wrong in my thinking. The floor is and has been open, keep up the good conversation.


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2011)

JFS said:


> Shazaam, maybe this is the sign I have been waiting for:
> 
> 
> http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-jesus-walmart-receipt,0,3388483.story



Why that looks just like Jesus, or any man from the Middle East that lived in the past 6000 years. But it's GOTTA be Jesus!

I find cornflakes all the time that look like my 93yr old neighbor.......what does it mean....WHAT DOES IT MEAN??????


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## stringmusic (Jul 18, 2011)

JFS said:


> Shazaam, maybe this is the sign I have been waiting for:
> 
> 
> http://www.kdvr.com/news/kdvr-jesus-walmart-receipt,0,3388483.story




...... I'll see you Sunday.


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## atlashunter (Jul 18, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> How or why does the almighty universe choose who is and who isn't "fished" out of the river? Who or what am I supposed to be grateful towards?
> 
> BTW, I would like to watch the video.



Well the point in the video is that you are a product and part of the universe. When you were conceived it could have been any of a great number of your siblings rather than you but you turned out to be the lucky one. So here you are and here they will never be. If that doesn't inspire a sense in someone that they are extremely fortunate nothing will. Christians and Muslims say, that's not enough that we get to live, we want to live forever. The point in the video that without the promises of eternal life made in Christianity and Islam they wouldn't have lasted I think is true.


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## bullethead (Jul 18, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Actually it was a frog that evolved into an ape that evolved into a very creative artist that just happened to make everything on earth beautiful and work together to the inth...like the moon controlling the tide, that was an accident? And the rotation of the earth just at the right angle and the right speed rotating on it's axis.....all by accident.....alrighty then.
> 
> And BAM! here is the earth, now evolve yourselves.



IF we were designed intelligently, the design could have been to adapt to any angle that the earth tilts and any speed it decides to rotate. Were we designed for the Earth or was the Earth designed for us? Why does it have to tilt at all? Why does it have to spin at all? Or is this planet and the way it formed JUST HAPPENED to be the right set up to be able to sustain these lifeforms?  If we are intelligently designed then each planet in our solar system could have life specifically designed for it's condition living on it. Heck there could be human like creatures that that thrive on the lack of oxygen and wickedly cold temps of another planet IF that was the way the designer wanted it. Why design such a tilt and rotation that is absolutely key to the survival of the creatures that worship you then design a large asteroid that can hit the planet and eliminate those keys to survival? 

Time beyond the likes of which we cannot comprehend and random chance is why we are here.


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## atlashunter (Jul 18, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Time beyond the likes of which we cannot comprehend and random chance is why we are here.



Nobody ever asks why all the people that potentially could have been here are not here.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> Well the point in the video is that you are a product and part of the universe. When you were conceived it could have been any of a great number of your siblings rather than you but you turned out to be the lucky one. So here you are and here they will never be. If that doesn't inspire a sense in someone that they are extremely fortunate nothing will. Christians and Muslims say, that's not enough that we get to live, we want to live forever. The point in the video that without the promises of eternal life made in Christianity and Islam they wouldn't have lasted I think is true.


I'll ask again.


stringmusic said:


> How or why does the almighty universe choose who is and who isn't "fished" out of the river? Who or what am I supposed to be grateful towards?


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> IF we were designed intelligently, the design *could have been *to adapt to any angle that the earth tilts and any speed it decides to rotate.


......and if we were at a different angle, you would be sweeping across the world sharing the Gospel with anyone who would listen wouldn't you?



> Were we designed for the Earth or was the Earth designed for us?


 Probably both, but you'll have to ask the designer.



> Why does it have to tilt at all?


Don't know, I'm just glad it does



> Why does it have to spin at all?


see above



> Or is this planet and the way it formed JUST HAPPENED to be the right set up to be able to sustain these lifeforms?


No



> If we are intelligently designed then each planet in our solar system could have life specifically designed for it's condition living on it. Heck there could be human like creatures that that thrive on the lack of oxygen and wickedly cold temps of another planet IF that was the way the designer wanted it.


Yes, this is true, but the fact that there is nobody living on Venus does not take away from the fact that we are intelligently designed.


> Why design such a tilt and rotation that is absolutely key to the survival of the creatures that worship you then design a large asteroid that can hit the planet and eliminate those keys to survival?


Because You alone(God) have the power to not let that happen. If the earth is 13 billion years old and an asteriod hasn't taken us out "by random chance" by now, I like our odds 



> Time beyond the likes of which we cannot comprehend and random chance is why we are here.



I respectfully disagree.
If you are just a random chance of molecules, why would it be so bad if I shot you with a rocket launcher?


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2011)

The earth has been hit numerous times by big asteroids and they have caused massive destruction and possibly extinction. I like our odds too especially that if the earth is 13 billion years old, odds are the bible has gotten some things radically wrong.


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> The earth has been hit numerous times by big asteroids and they have caused massive destruction and possibly extinction. I like our odds too especially that if the earth is 13 billion years old, odds are the bible has gotten some things radically wrong.



Extinction of what? Humans? Did the almight universe and cosmos see that the earth was devoid of humans and start up the evolution train again?


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Extinction of what? Humans? Did the almight universe and cosmos see that the earth was devoid of humans and start up the evolution train again?



Now I know(hope anyway) you are smarter than that String. There is a link between dinosaur extinction and large asteroids hitting the planet. The evolution train just kept a rollin.....


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## stringmusic (Jul 19, 2011)

bullethead said:


> Now I know(hope anyway) you are smarter than that String. There is a link between dinosaur extinction and large asteroids hitting the planet. The evolution train just kept a rollin.....



We were talking about "we" as in humans, and you posted that an asteroid may have caused extinction, I simply asked a question.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> I'll ask again.



I answered you before. It's chance that you are here and countless others are not. Take happiness in that. It's not that your life is any more special or significant than theirs would have been. But you got the winning lotto ticket. You're here. It's not a "who" that you should be grateful toward. Perhaps it can be said you should be grateful toward the universe that makes your life possible but don't mistake that for meaning the universe is a "who". In light of how lucky we are it's incredibly arrogant to expect more.


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## Blueridge (Jul 19, 2011)

BillyLee1956 said:


> One of the biggest problems (of course they will say "I have no problems except with you Bible thumpers"), non-Christians have is the changes they will have to make in their lifestyles if they accept Christ as their personal savior.
> Becoming a Christian is actually the easy part...but LIVING THE CHRISTIAN LIFE is where the rubber hits the road. And this is tough to do...but Paul preaches of the holy spirit that enters us and gives us power to recognize satan's lies and trickery...thus, "greater is he that is within me than he who is without of me".
> Having been an agnostic (and a very smart mouthed one too) for many years before conversion, led me to observe the many arguments and attacks on Christianity by unbelievers. I am well aware of their routines and am in a position to see it coming way-y-y-y down the road.
> Living the Christian life demands obedience and submission to the rules of an unseen force, which they laughingly refer to as preposterous. This obedience, in itself is contrary to human nature. Human nature means doing it the way I want to do it, my way, and if some nutty 'bible' tells me to live otherwise...then to hash with that absurdity. I will do as I please and set my OWN moral code and anybody who doesn't like it can jump over the moon.
> ...



Those "changes in life style " will be made by in people by the Holy Spirit. Good post Billy Lee.


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## Blueridge (Jul 19, 2011)

correction. will be made in people by the Holy spirit.


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## CAL (Jul 19, 2011)

jebaneezer,
I haven't posted here for personal reasons but I would like to suggest something to you to do.If you believe in something and wish to do it,then speak to positive people for their help.Negative people will do nothing for your already positive attitude.You can do nothing to pull them up to where you are.They will only pull you down to where they are.

If you wish to learn how to fish?Do you go to people who don't like fishing to learn?I don't think so.If you wish to make money?Do you get advise from people who are broke?I don't think so.If you wish to end up in Heaven?Do you get advise from people who apparently are going to torment?I don't think so!You do see where I am going I am sure.Good luck in your quest.You are a lucky man,I think our Lord is dealing with your heart otherwise you wouldn't have ever ask your original question.Let Him in,you will see how good it is.

Now the rest bring it on.This is my only post here,you won't get an answer.


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## atlashunter (Jul 19, 2011)

In other words, find people who are receptive to your religious message. Good advice for folks trying to spread any religion. Kids make the easiest targets.


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## bullethead (Jul 19, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> We were talking about "we" as in humans, and you posted that an asteroid may have caused extinction, I simply asked a question.



I am talking about "we" as every creature living on this planet. Humans are just another mammal in the family.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 19, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> In other words, find people who are receptive to your religious message. Good advice for folks trying to spread any religion. Kids make the easiest targets.



If you want a hamburger, don't go to Chick-Fil-A. Pretty simple.


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## Sterlo58 (Jul 20, 2011)

I would suggest you post in both forums. Spend time doing some serious soul searching and then make a decision based on your assesment from both sides.

I would guess that most everyone questions their beliefs from time to time. I certainly have. With the recession and the housing market crash, this last few years have been devastating to me and my family financially. The highs and lows of this experience have definitely given reason to question both sides of the debate. 

It is normal and a sign of intelligence to ask questions. Hope you find an answer that gives you peace of mind.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 20, 2011)

Seems to me he came here for a reason. Maybe he wanted to be down in the dumps with the rest of us... Just because we take a negative position towards a god or religion in general doesn't mean we have negative attitudes that pull us or other people "down." 




CAL said:


> jebaneezer,
> I haven't posted here for personal reasons but I would like to suggest something to you to do.If you believe in something and wish to do it,then speak to positive people for their help.Negative people will do nothing for your already positive attitude.You can do nothing to pull them up to where you are.They will only pull you down to where they are.
> 
> If you wish to learn how to fish?Do you go to people who don't like fishing to learn?I don't think so.If you wish to make money?Do you get advise from people who are broke?I don't think so.If you wish to end up in Heaven?Do you get advise from people who apparently are going to torment?I don't think so!You do see where I am going I am sure.Good luck in your quest.You are a lucky man,I think our Lord is dealing with your heart otherwise you wouldn't have ever ask your original question.Let Him in,you will see how good it is.
> ...


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 20, 2011)

atlashunter said:


> In other words, find people who are receptive to your religious message. Good advice for folks trying to spread any religion. Kids make the easiest targets.



Yes, they do.. Since my daughter has been old enough to comprehend speech, she's only been to church once. Just the other day she said something about god. I asked her if she believed in god and she said, "I guess." It only took once for her to start believing what the grown ups told her. I think that most started that way. I know I did.


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## TheBishop (Jul 21, 2011)

CAL said:


> jebaneezer,
> I haven't posted here for personal reasons but I would like to suggest something to you to do.If you believe in something and wish to do it,then speak to positive people for their help.Negative people will do nothing for your already positive attitude.You can do nothing to pull them up to where you are.They will only pull you down to where they are.
> 
> If you wish to learn how to fish?Do you go to people who don't like fishing to learn?I don't think so.If you wish to make money?Do you get advise from people who are broke?I don't think so.If you wish to end up in Heaven?Do you get advise from people who apparently are going to torment?I don't think so!You do see where I am going I am sure.Good luck in your quest.You are a lucky man,I think our Lord is dealing with your heart otherwise you wouldn't have ever ask your original question.Let Him in,you will see how good it is.
> ...



Its amazing that those that question, can be only negative.   He posted in here becuase I believe he wanted to hear both sides.  Going to the "positive" sub forums would be like going to moveon.org to find answers in knowing wether our prsident is horrible but wanting to believe he is the messiah.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 21, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Its amazing that those that question, can be only negative.   He posted in here becuase I believe he wanted to hear both sides.  Going to the "positive" sub forums would be like going to moveon.org to find answers in knowing wether our prsident is horrible but wanting to believe he is the messiah.



Or it might be like going to Five Guys and ordering a burger. I bet you get a burger.


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## TripleXBullies (Jul 22, 2011)

EXACTLY... He knew what he was ordering here.


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## ted_BSR (Jul 22, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> EXACTLY... He knew what he was ordering here.



Only he knows his intentions.


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