# Ethics Question for you all...



## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Nov 28, 2007)

OK, dude is hunting in a ground blind near a high hay field and a swamp thicket.  Area is not very big, actually it gets overlooked by other hunters in the area all the time.  i told the guy where to sit and how where to expect the deer to come from.  i knew there was a bunch of deer and told him that he will see multiple deer...and probably a few good bucks.

Hunter has never shot a deer out of season or commited any law violations when it comes to hunting.  He is a stand up guy.  

So, with that being said, he takes his 13 year old son in this area after sitting in the spot i said and seeing a bunch of deer...his son has never shot a good buck but took a 6 point the weekend before.  The father wants him to take a good buck he could get mounted for him for christmas.  

Son shoots a big main frame 10 point in the first 30 minutes.  They wait about an hour and he shoots a doe and drops her in her tracks...they then decide to go find the buck.  They trail the buck to the hay field and it makes a half circle back into the small swamp.  The buck jumps up and runs to the hay field.  They walk out to the edge, see the buck and shoot him.  He drops.  They walk towards the buck and the buck they shot jumps to his feet and they shoot him again and he drops again...this time for good.  They walk straight to the buck and there is two.  

The buck the shot the first time in ther field is a totally different buck...the buck the originally shot from the blind was laying right where the second buck was standing and when the advanced on him, the original buck jumped up and the result was the second shot in the field, thus finishing off the original deer.

So, son has shot two whopper bucks, one being a 18 1/4 inch wide (inside) main frame 10 point that has a broken G-4 which makes him a beautiful 9 point.  The other is a nontypical 11 that is about the same size and shape.  The two racks look strikingly similar except for the broken G-4 on the 9 and the extra 6 inch drop on the 11. 

What does the father and son do.  Father is not carrying a gun but has an open buck tag.  He has never tagged someone elses deer.  He also does not want to take an illegal or non tagged deer from the field.  Son is mortified of going to jail for illegally taking the second buck.  

He told me what he did, but wanted to know what a few others would do...more specifically those with young kids...

Thanks for the honesty in advance...


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## shdw633 (Nov 28, 2007)

He uses his tag and tags both bucks.  His and his son's season is over.


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## Stan in SC (Nov 28, 2007)

An honest mistake.He tags one with his tag or gets someone else to tag it.Technically illegal but a sensible solution.


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## Muddyfoots (Nov 28, 2007)

shdw633 said:


> He uses his tag and tags both bucks.  His and his son's season is over.



Yep....


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## NOYDB (Nov 28, 2007)

I go with it being an honest mistake. Buck season is over for both of them.


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

NOYDB said:


> I go with it being an honest mistake. Buck season is over for both of them.



Same here.


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## Al33 (Nov 28, 2007)

Not much difference if I ran over and killed a buck with my vehicle after taking my limit with hunting weapons. Stuff happens to good and honest people too. 

I think he should have reported it, donated the entire deer to the DNR to do with as they saw fit, and rely on hopefully wise authorities to work it out. I would like to think prudence would prevail. I do not think the father should feel obligated to sacrifice one of his tags but if doing so somehow makes him and the son feel better about the situation then do so, but not on the buck. The DNR has special tags for unusual circumstances such as this. The buck could be used as a decoy later on and the meat could be used to feed others in need.


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

Well this is not really an ethics question since ethics are personal, if he feels OK with what ever he did then nothing has been done ethically wrong.

Now as far as leagally:  his son has broken the law.  He should call the DNR and turn his son in.  Let the DNR decide how they will handle it.  Maybe they will cut his young son a break (I would hope so) but his son should understand that even though mistakes happen there is a law to be obeyed.  Of course this would be in a perfect world.  Not only do I think most of the people here would not turn in their son they would not even turn themselves in had they done it.


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

Since we are on the subject:
Does a Ranger have the authority to issue a warning or does he have to issue a ticket and let the courts decide if indeed it was reported?


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## jody7818 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> ...his son has broken the law.  He should call the DNR and turn his son in...



Turn your own son into the law?  Ahh...that's crazy.  Wonder how that's going to lay on a 13 year-old's mind?  How about turning yourself in the next time you go over 1 mph on the roads....


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## Booner Killa (Nov 28, 2007)

No, I wouldn't turn my son in to the DNR. It was an honoest  mistake, plain and simple. I would tag the deer myself and learn from the situation.


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## 60Grit (Nov 28, 2007)

Ditto, use your tags dad, it was an honest mistake.


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## Daddyboy (Nov 28, 2007)

*What were they thinking?*

Load em up and drive off. If you don't get caught  do it again next week. NOT!!
Just kidding folks. I "personally" would use my tag and just look at it as "buck" hunting is over. Heck folks what know me know for my family its about the meat. But    somebody should "in a perfect world" take responsibility and do the law abiding option. _did i say that out loud?_

JMO


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## pnome (Nov 28, 2007)

shdw633 said:


> He uses his tag and tags both bucks.  His and his son's season is over.



This.


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## Gunsmoke (Nov 28, 2007)

Why involve the  dnr or  authorites? he would probally get fined loose his gun &  license etc for a honest mistake.just use dads tag and  be done with bucks for the season.


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## burkecountydeer (Nov 28, 2007)

Id cape him out right there and act like nothing hapend


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## capt stan (Nov 28, 2007)

Though not leagle, I would tag my sons other buck and be done hunting for the season. I can't see calling the law for an honest mistake. I'm sure there have been a lot of folks on here who shot a doe only to find out it was a small 2 in spike!!!! Same situation. I would also stress the learning points in the situation. It was as described an accident not intentional. Thats the reason for my answer.

IF it was intentional I'd wear his rear end out and he wouldn't hunt for a year or two for punsihment!!!!


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Well this is not really an ethics question since ethics are personal, if he feels OK with what ever he did then nothing has been done ethically wrong.
> 
> Now as far as leagally:  his son has broken the law.  He should call the DNR and turn his son in.  Let the DNR decide how they will handle it.  Maybe they will cut his young son a break (I would hope so) but his son should understand that even though mistakes happen there is a law to be obeyed.  Of course this would be in a perfect world.  Not only do I think most of the people here would not turn in their son they would not even turn themselves in had they done it.



I hope you are kidding.  Sounds a little Communistic.

That should do great in building a sons trust in his father.  I see him going back to his dad for help in the future over something serious, now that he knows his dad would turn him in to the authorities over a 4-legged termite.  C'mon.


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## burkecountydeer (Nov 28, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> I hope you are kidding.  Sounds a little Communistic.
> 
> That should do great in building a sons trust in his father.  I see him going back to his dad for help in the future over something serious, now that he knows his dad would turn him in to the authorities over a 4-legged termite.  C'mon.



Thats true!


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## grim (Nov 28, 2007)

Turn his son in?  On a hunt that pop was supervising?  Absolutely not, thats just plain wrong.  You'd just be teaching your son to be a snitch.

Fill both tags.  If dad was there, and approved of the shot that took the second buck, then he might as well have shot it, being the responsible adult and all.


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## MKW (Nov 28, 2007)

*...*

Tag the deer and forget about it. Not that big of a deal, IMO. They have enough tags between them. Heck, I wouldn't even feel bad for killing 2 NICE bucks in one sitting.
Mike


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## The AmBASSaDEER (Nov 28, 2007)

Pops needs to tag it and be done buck hunting,and learn from their mistakes


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> I hope you are kidding.  Sounds a little Communistic.
> 
> That should do great in building a sons trust in his father.  I see him going back to his dad for help in the future over something serious, now that he knows his dad would turn him in to the authorities over a 4-legged termite.  C'mon.



I said in a perfect world and I said I knew few would do it.   From what I read, if a person breaks the law by mistake, it is OK.


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> I said in a perfect world and I said I knew few would do it.   From what I read, if a person breaks the law by mistake, it is OK.



http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=149844

As I said before, in the thread above:

Ethics has two pieces to consider.  One is "absolute" and one is "relative."  

Absolute would say there are no exceptions, for example: killing someone.  Therefore it is ALWAYS unethical to kill a human.

Relative would say there are exceptions, for example: killing a human who is a home invader who is holding your child hostage and will kill you.  Therefore it is ethical to kill a human.

Ethics are different between different cultures and historical timelines, and vary even in our country.  Hunting deer with bait or corn is considered by many to be unethical today (to most), but is legal in some states.  So ethics does not always follow "legal" rules.

Ethics should be what you consider "Right or Wrong" and because that can vary so widely among individuals, I do not believe there is any simple answer.

All I can say is that I fall between absolute and relative in reference to Ethics.  My ethics hinge on what I believe, was taught, and as a Christian have learned, was  right or wrong.

Since it was a MISTAKE, I will say it is relative, and no-one was killed except for a termite, then the dad needs to fill out his tag and the season is over.

If the son popped off two deer intentionally, it would be a whole different scenario.


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## BDD (Nov 28, 2007)

When it comes to hunting it's hard to believe some of the comments on here about ETHICS.
There are folks on here with less sins then Jesus.

Here's a question for some of you about ethics…  how many of you are being paid right now to be
doing something other then reading and posting on this board???   Is that ethical?


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## shdw633 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> I said in a perfect world and I said I knew few would do it.   From what I read, if a person breaks the law by mistake, it is OK.




I would say in the unperfect world of which we live in that is correct!!  For crying out louds Randy all we have in this world is our family and if they are going to turn us in for every little infraction that occurs in our lifetime than who do we really have to count on when we are down!  Your statement reminds me of the movie "Logans Run"  That was suppose to be a perfect world where they turned everyone in.  I personally thought the movie was terrible, but it was a hit way back then as I recall.  Anyway, put the gun away Barney it was just a small infraction and no need to get the entire town of Mayberry up in arms, lets just tag it and take a little field lesson and move on!!!


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## JoeKnowsBows (Nov 28, 2007)

Here's a question for some of you about ethics… how many of you are being paid right now to be
doing something other then reading and posting on this board??? Is that ethical? 

Now thats good

I say go home and cry or at least whine alot like alot of guys i know do when they mess up lol

He made a mistake while hunting it's not life or death. Do what they thinks right about taging and move on. Oh and for anyone wanting to throw any stones i guess i would make sure i didn't speed or do anything illegal myself. After all we do live to please society and wouldn't want someone to talk about us and hurt our rep. now would we.
Although people will always talk and judge others so what the heck live life to the fullest and use what sense god gave ya to live your life


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## dixie (Nov 28, 2007)

Depends on where it happened at, at 13 here in GA his son isn't required to have a license


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## jody7818 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy...if you turned in your 13 y/o son to the DNR, then the DNR would probably charge you instead of your son since you're the one who is suppose to be supervising your son.


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## ryano (Nov 28, 2007)

BDD said:


> Here's a question for some of you about ethics…  how many of you are being paid right now to be
> doing something other then reading and posting on this board???   Is that ethical?



OUCH!


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

So what have we learned here?

Here is the bottom line.  If you have to question if it's right or wrong or get someones elses opinion, then it probably is wrong and you obviously do not feel comfortable with it.  What should have been done here?

IMO just like some of the dog shooting threads on here,  do what you feel you need to do and shut up about it.  If you don't want opinions on what to do or don't want to get people's ethics or the law involved.  Do what you need to do and go on with life.  It is not a perfect world.  Would I have turned in my kid?  Nope.  Heck I did not even turn in my sister for dealing drugs but somebody else felt it was important!  But if you ask me my opinion on someone breaking the law, I am going to tell you you shouldn't do it.  Does that mean I never break it?  Nope.

Just out of curiosity, what was the father's decission?

And to add more, had I said I agree with the first few posts, there would have been little discussion and ths thread probaby would have died early this morning.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Nov 28, 2007)

y'all actually fill out your harvest records?


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> So what have we learned here?
> 
> Here is the bottom line.  If you have to question if it's right or wrong or get someones elses opinion, then it probably is wrong and you obviously do not feel comfortable with it.  What should have been done here?
> 
> ...



You always make it interesting


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## wack em (Nov 28, 2007)

Looks like daddy is paying for two mounts this Christmas!


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

wack em said:


> Looks like daddy is paying for two mounts this Christmas!



Wow had not thought of that.  This kid gets to tell the story of how he broke the law for the rest of his life if Dad mounts the bucks.


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## elfiii (Nov 28, 2007)

capt stan said:


> Though not leagle, I would tag my sons other buck and be done hunting for the season. I can't see calling the law for an honest mistake. I'm sure there have been a lot of folks on here who shot a doe only to find out it was a small 2 in spike!!!! Same situation. I would also stress the learning points in the situation. It was as described an accident not intentional. Thats the reason for my answer.
> 
> IF it was intentional I'd wear his rear end out and he wouldn't hunt for a year or two for punsihment!!!!



Yes sir! 



BDD said:


> When it comes to hunting it's hard to believe some of the comments on here about ETHICS.
> There are folks on here with less sins then Jesus.
> 
> Here's a question for some of you about ethics…  how many of you are being paid right now to be
> doing something other then reading and posting on this board???   Is that ethical?



Me and yes. My boss pays me to get the job done and doesn't look over my shoulder. I have never let him down. How about you?


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## girliechick (Nov 28, 2007)

Dad tag the deer for your son.  Mistakes happen and congrats on the bucks!!!!


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

BDD said:


> Here's a question for some of you about ethics…  how many of you are being paid right now to be
> doing something other then reading and posting on this board???   Is that ethical?



I work for myself.


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## Daddyboy (Nov 28, 2007)

Bowhunter, this is a dandy thread. Thanks for the scinerio.-sp


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Nov 28, 2007)

elfiii said:


> Me and yes. My boss pays me to get the job done and doesn't look over my shoulder. I have never let him down. How about you?


Yes!! I've been looking for justification all along.  This fits me perfectly as well!! 

so really... you guys fill your harvest records out?  and only kill 12 in a dove field?  and always wear your orange when you're 30' up in a tree and you're the only one hunting your own private property?


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Well this is not really an ethics question since ethics are personal, if he feels OK with what ever he did then nothing has been done ethically wrong.
> Now as far as leagally:  his son has broken the law.  He should call the DNR and turn his son in.  Let the DNR decide how they will handle it.  Maybe they will cut his young son a break (I would hope so) but his son should understand that even though mistakes happen there is a law to be obeyed.  Of course this would be in a perfect world.  Not only do I think most of the people here would not turn in their son they would not even turn themselves in had they done it.



Ethics are not personal, would it be okay to rob banks if you felt ok with it.  Ethics are obeying the law and following excepted norms of good behavior.

Technically, he does not have tag the deer until it is moved.
Should have Tagged the first deer, call DNR and had a Ranger come out resolve the issue on the spot.  If their was no intent to shoot a second buck then it is an accident you just wouldn't be able to keep the deer.

This would be teaching the son ethical behavior, as in doing the right thing.  

I do not get this ethics and ethical behavior being a personal thing.  A decision concerning ethics always weighs the effects of your behavior upon others as well as yourself.

Your ethical behavior is what other see, how you deal with you conscience is personal.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Nov 28, 2007)

They have enough tags between them to tag both....

Tag em and bag em.........


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Nov 28, 2007)

q. when 3 guys go fishing with a guide and the limit is 3 fish per guide, do they stop at 9 or do they catch 12?


a. they catch 12 and the guide better not crank the first reel.


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## shakey hunter (Nov 28, 2007)

Let the dad tag the deer and then talk to the son about what had happen and  both should learn from it. Then forget about it just like Cpt. Stan said if I found out that it was done again or found out it was intentional I would tan his hide. Things do happen to honest people and mistakes are made. Last time I checked nobody here on this earth walked on water.


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> Ethics are not personal, would it be okay to rob banks if you felt ok with it.  Ethics are obeying the law and following excepted norms of good behavior.



We already lost that fight in another thread.  I wish you would have been there with me.  I could have used your help.  BTW, ethics may or may not have anything to do with obeying the law.  I know of many things that are not unethical but are legal and I know many things that  unethical but are legal.


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> We already lost that fight in another thread.  I wish you would have been there with me.  I could have used your help.  BTW, ethics may or may not have anything to do with obeying the law.  I know of many things that are not unethical but are legal and I know many things that  unethical but are legal.



"Ethics" has a very FUZZY definition.


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## JShane (Nov 28, 2007)

To answer the question about what a DNR officer does or has to do in the presence of this issue. They do have what is called officer discression. The officer can chose to write a warning, give a verbal warning, issue a citation, etc. It is the officers choice. My feet are in those shoes, I and my son are done buck hunting for the year. Learn the lesson and never make the mistake a second time. A wise man once said "Mistakes are a key ingredient in the recipe for Character".


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## PWalls (Nov 28, 2007)

That's a hard one.

I like to think that I would go find a ranger and explain the situation to him and hope he would let us keep the extra rack and donate the meat as punishment and mark the Dad's tag and both be through for the year. I could live with that. Plus would teach the child another lesson in consequences and making sure of animal.

Hard part to stomach is that as the story was related there ain't very many people on here that wouldn't have done the same thing the kid did.

Realistically, I do not know what I would do until that situation happened.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Nov 28, 2007)

my Dad has killed two deer in the exact same circumstances.  they just weren't huge bucks...


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Well this is not really an ethics question since ethics are personal, if he feels OK with what ever he did then nothing has been done ethically wrong.
> 
> Now as far as leagally:  his son has broken the law.  He should call the DNR and turn his son in.  Let the DNR decide how they will handle it.  Maybe they will cut his young son a break (I would hope so) but his son should understand that even though mistakes happen there is a law to be obeyed.  Of course this would be in a perfect world.  Not only do I think most of the people here would not turn in their son they would not even turn themselves in had they done it.



Your right, nothing to do with ethics. Just an honest mistake. Now leaving the buck laying in the field would be unethical and illegal. 

Me personally, I would fill out the tag and be done with it. If this happened the way it reads, it was an honest mistake. Does that make me unethical, who cares, life is tough, deal with it.

Remember Randy, we have an obligation to recover our deer and during that attempt, (also an ethical thing to do) he thought he was taking down a wounded deer that he had shot. I dont think he was completely unethical here.

I dont think your going to find anybody on this planet that would turn their son in for this. Shinning maybe, but not this. Common sense comes to mind...............


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## Mechanicaldawg (Nov 28, 2007)

I always regret it when I've done the wrong thing and always feel good about it when I do the right.

Neither feeling ever seems to go away. It's called having a conscious. We all have one. Some of us just seem to be able to push out of mind at will.


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## Parker Phoenix (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> We already lost that fight in another thread.  I wish you would have been there with me.  I could have used your help.  BTW, ethics may or may not have anything to do with obeying the law.  I know of many things that are not unethical but are legal and I know many things that  unethical but are legal.



Ethics are what you do when no one else is looking.


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> I dont think he was completely unethical here...............



Never said he was.  In fact, thanks to your help I have removed the word ethics or unethical from my vocabulary.  Since ethics is a personal belief it is no longer ethics.  It is a personal belief.

He did break the law though.  Mistake or not.


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## dixie (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Never said he was.  In fact, thanks to your help I have removed the word ethics or unethical from my vocabulary.  Since ethics is a personal belief it is no longer ethics.  It is a personal belief.
> 
> He did break the law though.  Mistake or not.



How did the 13 y/o break the law in GA?


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## groundhawg (Nov 28, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> Yes!! I've been looking for justification all along.  This fits me perfectly as well!!
> 
> so really... you guys fill your harvest records out?  and only kill 12 in a dove field?  and always wear your orange when you're 30' up in a tree and you're the only one hunting your own private property?



Q1 - yes
Q2 - yes
Q3 - yes


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## Mechanicaldawg (Nov 28, 2007)

dixie said:


> How did the 13 y/o break the law in GA?



He killed 3 bucks. Just because he doesn't need to purchase a license does not mean that limits do not apply.


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## PWalls (Nov 28, 2007)

Jeff Young said:


> He killed 3 bucks. Just because he doesn't need to purchase a license does not mean that limits do not apply.



Yep, he only has to fill out and maintain the harvest record but the "limit" still applies. I imagine that any penalty would be applied to his father since he is a minor.


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## nickel back (Nov 28, 2007)

what is the big deal..........it is a KID.........HECK we all would have done the same thing......who new it was a second buck











CONGRATS TO THE YOUNG MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## dutchman (Nov 28, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> y'all actually fill out your harvest records?



My what?


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Never said he was.  In fact, thanks to your help I have removed the word ethics or unethical from my vocabulary.  Since ethics is a personal belief it is no longer ethics.  It is a personal belief.
> 
> He did break the law though.  Mistake or not.



Good job, see you can learn.

And thats exactly what happened, he broke the law, accident or not, he broke it. Now how do you deal with? Well if you have a son and he does not make a complete stop at a stop sign, are you going to turn him in?

Do you think you can cause more damage to him by sitting him down and replaying what happened and point out the mistakes or call the man and say he did it? Once you do that, I can almost promise you that you will never be able to teach your child anything else. His mind about you is closed.

To many times people get ethics and legal issues missed up.

For starters, you can never be ethical unless you are legal................

After that, anything you can come up with is based merely on feelings of what you think is right and wrong which are personal.


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## nickel back (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Wow had not thought of that.  This kid gets to tell the story of how he broke the law for the rest of his life if Dad mounts the bucks.



nope he gets to tell a story of how he shot two bucks thinking it was the same deer.............what you would have done let the deer jump up and walk off.......nope you would have shot agin not knowing it was anothere buck


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## Mechanicaldawg (Nov 28, 2007)

For those of you who keep saying that you'd be turning your son in, I think a better way to look at it is that you would discuss the situation with your son, explain to him all the concerns and urge him to do the right thing. Let him know that you are standing with him and make the phone call together.

Use the opportunity to teach him why you do the right things.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

Jeff Young said:


> For those of you who keep saying that you'd be turning your son in, I think a better way to look at it is that you would discuss the situation with your son, explain to him all the concerns and urge him to do the right thing. Let him know that you are standing with him and make the phone call together.
> 
> Use the opportunity to teach him why you do the right things.



Exactly! That being the ethical thing to do.  

You learn from your experiences, Dads should make sure it is the right lesson, that our job.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> We already lost that fight in another thread.  I wish you would have been there with me.  I could have used your help.  BTW, ethics may or may not have anything to do with obeying the law.  I know of many things that are not unethical but are legal and I know many things that  unethical but are legal.



You fought a good one to Randy. Next time I will let you win.

I sure would like to hear some of these examples that you speak of though about ethical practices. Can you provide some for us Maybe that would help clarify the whole matter.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Jeff Young said:


> For those of you who keep saying that you'd be turning your son in, I think a better way to look at it is that you would discuss the situation with your son, explain to him all the concerns and urge him to do the right thing. Let him know that you are standing with him and make the phone call together.
> 
> Use the opportunity to teach him why you do the right things.



And again, are you going to do the same with traffic laws? Or is this ethical way of life only pertain to hunting.


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

dixie said:


> How did the 13 y/o break the law in GA?


he killed three bucks according to the original post.


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> You fought a good one to Randy. Next time I will let you win.
> 
> I sure would like to hear some of these examples that you speak of though about ethical practices. Can you provide some for us Maybe that would help clarify the whole matter.



Fisrt you said you can only be ethical if you are legal.  I thought ethics had nothing to do with the law but only your own opinion.  You have lost me again.

Here are some of the examples I speak of.  But first you have to take for a minute that my definition of ethics is a set of moral values set by the local society.  If they are just what you feel is right then my examples do not work.

1.  Unethical but legal: Abortion, strip joints, pornography.
2. Illegal but ethical: prayer in the classroom, ten commandments in public buildings, hiring illegals (I use the last one lightly because that on is about a 50/50 split), cheating on your income taxes.


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## alphachief (Nov 28, 2007)

In my opinion, it would be unethical to trust that any state or federal agency would handle this situation with common sense.  My ethics say, Father and son just learned a valuable hunting lesson, but protecting the son ranks way above everything else.  Both Father and Son are tagged out in my book...leave the state out of it.


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## wack em (Nov 28, 2007)

I personally think the pair did the ethical thing by bagging the secound buck. They were very sure at the time that the secound buck was the buck that the young hunter had recently shot and they felt that it was a fleeing wounded deer.
Now what is more ethical let a deer that is wounded continue to run around suffering b/c ure not sure if it is the same deer you just shot and you don't have another tag or should you bag the deer that you think you have already wounded? 
I say shoot the deer if you think it is a wounded deer and then see if it is the first deer or not. Dad tags it and you chalk it up as a learning experience, as long as the meat is put to good use then i seen nothing wrong with the young fellow shooting the third buck in this situation. At least they didn't cover it up in the woods with sticks and leave it to rot like the one that Jody Hawk found on BF Grant last week.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> And again, are you going to do the same with traffic laws? Or is this ethical way of life only pertain to hunting.



Whether or not you practice what you preach or rationalize your behavior to meet your own ethical code, does not change what is the right thing to do. Either way the choice you make does effect more than just yourself.

Ethic
S:  ethic, moral principle, value-system, value orientation (the principles of right and wrong that are accepted by an individual or a social group) 

S:  ethic, ethical code (a system of principles governing morality and acceptable conduct) 
S:  ethical motive, ethics, morals, morality (motivation based on ideas of right and wrong) 
S:  ethics, moral philosophy (the philosophical study of moral values and rules)


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## knifemaker (Nov 28, 2007)

How many of us would have shot the same number of rounds at the same deer, not knowing they were different deer?  (In the same situation)   Now rethink some of your answers.


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## BDD (Nov 28, 2007)

As long as you don't get caught transporting them both at the same time , one tag would work just fine.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Nov 28, 2007)

knifemaker said:


> How many of us would have shot the same number of rounds at the same deer, not knowing they were different deer?  (In the same situation)   Now rethink some of your answers.



I didn't read anyone say they would never make the mistake.


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## nickel back (Nov 28, 2007)

how do you make a mistake when you do not no it was a mistake.....come on guys they had no Idea there was a second buck
what are the odds of a buck falling next to anothere buck that was bedded down.....to me he made no mistake he done what we all would have done


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## fulldraw74 (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> You fought a good one to Randy. Next time I will let you win.I sure would like to hear some of these examples that you speak of though about ethical practices. Can you provide some for us Maybe that would help clarify the whole matter.


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## wack em (Nov 28, 2007)

Consider this, you just shot this big 9 and he falls in his tracks making your secound buck of the season. then out steps the big main frame 10 with a 6" droptine, the only droptine buck you have ever seen. How many of you would be able to resist shooting him too? It'd be real easy to just forget about the lil 6 pointer you shot last week.


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## Mechanicaldawg (Nov 28, 2007)

nickel back said:


> .....to me he made no mistake he done what we all would have done



No. He did NOT do what we "all" would have done. Don't try to justify your lack of concern for game laws by saying we "all" would do the same.

Obviously, from reading the answers given here you are not alone in your lack of concern for limits. However, there are many of us who do try to do the right things. You shouldn't paint us with your brush.


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## grim (Nov 28, 2007)

alphachief said:


> In my opinion, it would be unethical to trust that any state or federal agency would handle this situation with common sense.



Maybe not unethical, but certainly not very smart.


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## dixie (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> he killed three bucks according to the original post.



But in GA a 13 y/o isn't required to have a license, so how did he break the law?


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

wack em said:


> Consider this, you just shot this big 9 and he falls in his tracks making your secound buck of the season. then out steps the big main frame 10 with a 6" droptine, the only droptine buck you have ever seen. How many of you would be able to resist shooting him too? It'd be real easy to just forget about the lil 6 pointer you shot last week.



Wrong.  I would not shoot it.


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## GonePhishn (Nov 28, 2007)

Daddy needs to use his tag--then get both deers mounted. Its an amazing story, no harm no foul.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

dixie said:


> But in GA a 13 y/o isn't required to have a license, so how did he break the law?



He has to have a harvest record and cannot exceed the limits.


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## Doc_Holliday23 (Nov 28, 2007)

dixie said:


> But in GA a 13 y/o isn't required to have a license, so how did he break the law?



they are still required to have a harvest record (dutchman, you should check your regs ) and they are still bound to the 12 deer, 2 buck limit.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Nov 28, 2007)

Holy Smokes....

I sure did not expect this much input.

1st:  Hunt took place in a different state than GA...  

2nd:  For some of you not thinking this is an Ethics question, it is.  Ethically he should turn his son in, Morally he should protect his son from being fined or worse...and the fact that he is the supervision does not say much on his part and in the state they were hunting in, the father could and would get fined as well.  

3rd:  Many folks on here would not turn in their own son, but is that ethical or moral? 

4th:  The father is, as i said, a stand up guy and is probably on of the greatest men i know.  He is kind of like a guy that people would look up too, so for him to ask me if he did the right thing...i felt honored, even though i have yet to tell him i disagree with his decision...

Now, since Stan put it out there...it is no different than shooting a dinker spike and mistaking it for a doe.  I personally would have tagged the buck as my own and swore the son to secrecy...it is not an ethical decision but more than leaving the deer in the woods or smuggling it home.  

So, you want to know what the father did...he made his son tag the original buck, and after leaving the woods, made a call to the local Game Warden and fabbed a story about someone illegally shooting the buck.  Warden came out, checked out the scene and took the deer in as evidence and told the guy that he could have the antlers in 30 days or something...the meat was going to be donated to a needy family...  

He is having second thoughts because he lied about the deer...even though his son was not there when the Wraden showed up, he knows that the son knows that his dad lied...so he asked me what he should have done...I have yet to answer him...


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## Mechanicaldawg (Nov 28, 2007)

11P & Y,

It sounds to me as if both of you already know the answer.


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## dixie (Nov 28, 2007)

Doc_Holliday23 said:


> they are still required to have a harvest record (dutchman, you should check your regs ) and they are still bound to the 12 deer, 2 buck limit.



Looks like I do too, I wasn't aware of that.


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## Tiger Rag (Nov 28, 2007)

Jeff Young said:


> For those of you who keep saying that you'd be turning your son in, I think a better way to look at it is that you would discuss the situation with your son, explain to him all the concerns and urge him to do the right thing. Let him know that you are standing with him and make the phone call together.
> 
> Use the opportunity to teach him why you do the right things.



I am with Jeff on this one and can prove it because I did a similar thing as a youth.

At 12 or 13 years old I shot at a nice buck broad-sided and skimmed the top of his neck only to kill a doe behind him that was facing me.  Doe season was not open at the time (in NC) I knew that this was not the deer that I had shot at.  

My dad and I called the Game Warden and he came and picked up the illegal deer.  He did not even offer verbal guidance since it was obvious that my Dad and I had made the right decision.  It would be more difficult with more antlers involved, but I have no doubt that my Dad's guidance would have been the same.

We did eventually find the buck while picking soybeans later in the year.


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## Al33 (Nov 28, 2007)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> He is having second thoughts because he lied about the deer...even though his son was not there when the Wraden showed up, he knows that the son knows that his dad lied...so he asked me what he should have done...I have yet to answer him...



There is the problem even with using a tag of his own. He would still have to lie about the situation. If he had tagged it and a warden questioned him and his son about it he would have had to lie in front of his son. I think a man's integrity and honor or worth far more than a deer.


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## Tiger Rag (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Since we are on the subject:
> Does a Ranger have the authority to issue a warning or does he have to issue a ticket and let the courts decide if indeed it was reported?



Randy,
The ranger has the latitude to issue a verbal or written warning as he sees fit, and they often do -- contrary to the opnions of many.


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## D_Happyfeet (Nov 28, 2007)

I have a very hard time believing that ANYONE would contact DNR and turn themselves or their son in.
And I can see where it would be very easy to think the second deer he shot was actually the first.  

Ethically the right thing to do would be just what dad did.  Tag the deer.  If he had a tag left, he/they had every right to shoot a second deer.  If Dad chose to let son shoot it for him, so be it.  If not for the mistake, who is to say Dad wouldn't have took the gun and shot the second deer.  Not a problem in my opinion. The son is old enough to know the difference between intentional wrong doing, and a mistake.  And it doesn't sound as if they set out to ignore the laws.


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## fulldraw74 (Nov 28, 2007)

D_Happyfeet said:


> I have a very hard time believing that ANYONE would contact DNR and turn themselves or their son in.
> And I can see where it would be very easy to think the second deer he shot was actually the first.
> 
> Ethically the right thing to do would be just what dad did.  Tag the deer.  If he had a tag left, he/they had every right to shoot a second deer.  If Dad chose to let son shoot it for him, so be it.  If not for the mistake, who is to say Dad wouldn't have took the gun and shot the second deer.  Not a problem in my opinion. The son is old enough to know the difference between intentional wrong doing, and a mistake.  And it doesn't sound as if they set out to ignore the laws.




Exactly.....


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> He is having second thoughts because he lied about the deer...even though his son was not there when the Wraden showed up, he knows that the son knows that his dad lied...so he asked me what he should have done...I have yet to answer him...



So we have learned another lesson.  Lieing just leads to more lieing and on and on.  This may also cause the Ranger to do some investigation work that is not necessary and a waste fo his time.  Being truthful up front is alwasy the best thing to do even if there are consequences with it.  And yes I have not always chosen that route either.  But I try too.  Would the son have learned a more valuable lesson by telling the truth and doing the right thing or understaning there is a time to lie?


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

D_Happyfeet said:


> The son is old enough to know the difference between intentional wrong doing, and a mistake.



The son also understands now that it is sometimes best to tell a lie to cover up a mistake.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

Jeff Young said:


> 11P & Y,
> 
> It sounds to me as if both of you already know the answer.



I think they do too.  That is the conscience part.  The dad had an opportunity to do the right thing and make a lasting impression on his son.  Sounds like the GW would have done the right thing also.

I assume that the kid now thinks his Dad told the GW the true story and everything is alright and the kid will know what to do next time.  The Dad, probably a great guy after all he was taking his kid hunting, now has to tell two lies the one for the GW and the one so his kid will think he is a stand up guy.

My story.  My sixteen year old son and a "friend" shot from the road and killed an animal they thought was a deer but wasn't.  When they discovered their mistake they took it and buried it.

Neither kid had every been in any trouble.  Someone saw the incident and phoned it in.  Another witness recognized the truck and called me.  Well, when my son got home I ask him how things had gone seeing the blood in his truck.

Well he came up with a good story, but not the truth. I gave him another chance and he came up with the right story.  We went down to the Sheriffs office and he turned himself in.  The sheriff did not make a case if I garunteed him I would not let my son drive his new truck for six months.

I agreed.  We parked the truck.

My son now in his thirties will tell you that is the best lesson he ever got.  It scared him and it scared me to take him to the SO, but it was the right thing to do.  

Ethically and morally the right thing to do.  You must be responsible for you actions.  He made a mistake and he learned from it.


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> So we have learned another lesson.  Lieing just leads to more lieing and on and on.  This may also cause the Ranger to do some investigation work that is not necessary and a waste fo his time.  Being truthful up front is alwasy the best thing to do even if there are consequences with it.  And yes I have not always chosen that route either.  But I try too.  Would the son have learned a more valuable lesson by telling the truth and doing the right thing or understaning there is a time to lie?



When I worked overseas I had to lie.  As a matter of fact, if I had not, I would not be here right now.  So yes, there is a time to "lie."


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## fulldraw74 (Nov 28, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> When I worked overseas I had to lie.  As a matter of fact, if I had not, I would not be here right now.  So yes, there is a time to "lie."



Good point....


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> Fisrt you said you can only be ethical if you are legal.  I thought ethics had nothing to do with the law but only your own opinion.  You have lost me again.
> 
> Here are some of the examples I speak of.  But first you have to take for a minute that my definition of ethics is a set of moral values set by the local society.  If they are just what you feel is right then my examples do not work.
> 
> ...



I agree on # 2

But on # 1, and as much as I agree with your statement, some men do not feel guilty about doing those things and see nothing wrong with it, and as bad as I hate abortion, I cant force a lady not to do it. She has to come to that conclusion with in her self.

I do try to stick to more simple things though, like one guy on here said it was unethical to kill a yearling. I know you didnt say that, but where could a person like me find those type examples, involving hunting? I dont see anything unethical about shooting a yearling.


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## Beenslayin (Nov 28, 2007)

I would say Dad should tag it. The ethical thing in my opinion, based on my beliefs would be to make the best of the situation by using dad's tag. If they were to be questioned by the DNR they should do the ethical thing and not lie about it. Just tell the truth and hope for a fair DNR ranger to realize that it was a mistake. 
There are many ways the Dad  and Son could have handled this. Hide the deer come back after dark, take the best buck and ditch the other etc, call the DNR and pray. But it seems that they really did not hide the error they simply made the best decision in the situation. 
To insist that the Dad should call the DNR would be like calling the highway patrol everytime our speedometer climbs above the speed limit.

Let those without sin cast the first stone.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> Whether or not you practice what you preach or rationalize your behavior to meet your own ethical code, does not change what is the right thing to do. Either way the choice you make does effect more than just yourself.
> 
> Ethic
> S:  ethic, moral principle, value-system, value orientation (the principles of right and wrong that are *accepted by an individual or a social grou*p)
> ...




Your right, it does not change it from right or wrong.

But to turn your son in for something over an honest mistake is getting pretty bad. If it was intentional, you not get an argument from me unless the kid is a minor.

"ethics" given by you, look above in the bold red, they are personal...............

And the one in blue, Father also has a moral duty to protect his son, including showing him a mistake he made rather than taking him to the lions den.


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## BIGABOW (Nov 28, 2007)

NOYDB said:


> I go with it being an honest mistake. Buck season is over for both of them.



you got it!


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> "ethics" given by you, look above in the bold red, they are personal................



I told you.  They can not see the word "social group!!!"


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## nickel back (Nov 28, 2007)

Jeff Young said:


> No. He did NOT do what we "all" would have done. Don't try to justify your lack of concern for game laws by saying we "all" would do the same.
> 
> Obviously, from reading the answers given here you are not alone in your lack of concern for limits. However, there are many of us who do try to do the right things. You shouldn't paint us with your brush.



Jeff Young didn't mean to make you ........maybe I should have said most of us would have told our son to  again in the heat of the moment....and you darn right I would have told my son to  again.......now concers on limts you have no idea what you are talking about.....between me and my son we take 3 deer a year and would take 4 if that BIG BOY WOULD WALK OUT.....I'm a frim beliver that the limts should be at 5 a year but that is not up to me......also between me and my son we can take 4 bucks a year and I do not mine if my son shoots all 4 of them....but that has not happen yet but we did haft to use my any buck tag on the 6 point he shot this year because the week before he shot a spike with that said he does understand the laws and what can be shoot and can not be shoot .....now starting next year he knows he only has two buck tags but if he makes a learning MISTAKE I will be there to help.........let me also say that next year my son will start hunting by  his self so the last two years have been a learning experience for us both..... but I do belive he is ready......but the buddy stands are still up in place for us to hunt togethere some


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> I dont see anything unethical about shooting a yearling.



You may not and since you continue to think ethics are personal then you will not understand nor ever accept that most of our social group of hunters probably consider shooting a yearling as unethical even though legal.

Yes there are some ethics that are personal.  But by a large margin our ethics are determined by our social group.  If you remember this ethcs discussion all started back when we began debating baiting.  It was said at that time that most of the "hunters, non-hunters, and certainly the anti-hunters" in Georgia consider baiting unethical.  That group is a majority of our social group that have set this specific ethic.  So as a group, it is viewed as unethical.  Now you personally may not feel it is unethical, you may not even care that the social group considers you unethical, but the fact is you will be considered by that social group unethical by doing so.

Let's look at another example, if you were a pigmy down in the South American outback somewhere you would not be considered unethical for killing and eating people by that social group.  But up here in the United States it is considered unethical.

I know I keep trying to give you examples that you just can not see but ............


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## Randy (Nov 28, 2007)

nickel back said:


> between me and my son we take 3 deer a year and would take 4 if that BIG BOY WOULD WALK OUT.....I'm a frim beliver that the limts should be at 5 a year but that is not up to me......also between me and my son we can take 4 bucks a year and I do not mine if my son shoots all 4 of them....with that said he does understand the laws and what can be shoot and can not be shoot he also knows that his Dad does not mine if he shoots all4 of them.....now starting next year he knows he only has two buck tags but if he makes a learing MISTAKE I will be there to help



What state do you hunt that your son can take 4 bucks?


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## stevetarget (Nov 28, 2007)

Just have to say this, it was a mistake to kill buck number three, an honest mistake. Tell the young man that stuff happens and learn form it. Tag the deer with the last tag and say that buck season is over for the year. Go doe hunting the rest of the season.  
 For those of you that said _turn your son in_; you must be out of your mind.


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## D_Happyfeet (Nov 28, 2007)

Wow


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## BIGABOW (Nov 28, 2007)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Holy Smokes....
> 
> I sure did not expect this much input.
> 
> ...


IM STILL ON THE THRID PAGE BUT!
COME ON 11P&Y!!!!
IF THE SMALL SIX WAS KILLED IN ANOTHER STATE THEN HE HAS NOT BROKE ANY GAME LAWS WTH!!!!


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Nov 28, 2007)

BIGABOW said:


> IM STILL ON THE THRID PAGE BUT!
> COME ON 11P&Y!!!!
> IF THE SMALL SIX WAS KILLED IN ANOTHER STATE THEN HE HAS NOT BROKE ANY GAME LAWS WTH!!!!



Sorry Bigabow, i been catching up.  The state they were hunting is a two buck state, just like GA...taking the little 6 point and then the other two would be 3 bucks in my book.  The father did not tag the buck and that is what i would have done.  I am lost in what you do not get??  

I just finished emailing the dad and told him that i think he was wrong in what he did but in my defense, i was not there at the time and i do not have kids of my own so....

given what transpired, i thought he should sit down one on one with his son and explain to him why he did what he did to keep the chance of his son from losing his license because not all wardens are nice about things...


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## PWalls (Nov 28, 2007)

Lying to DNR was a compounding error. That was definately not what he should have done. Now his son knows it is OK to break the law (accidental or not) and all it takes to get out of it is lying.


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## Kdog (Nov 28, 2007)

Better late than never.  

If this had happend to me and my boy(s), by all means I would have told him to put the animal down had I not known it was a different buck.

Once we got there and found two bucks, I would have had to sit down and have a talk with my boy(s) and explained that "I" made a mistake by telling him to shoot again.  It would have been my fault, and "I" would have accepted the responsibility for it since "I" was supervising the hunt.

This seems to be the point everyone is missing.  You are not turning in your son, you are turning yourself in for making a mistake.  99% of DNR rangers, DNR Rangers can correct me if I am wrong, would understand how the mistake was made, and would issue a warning or mild citation.  They may also confiscate one or both of the bucks.  You, supervising the hunt, would be the one responsible for your son's actions, and you need to be the responsible one here.  If not, this small lie could turn into major infractions, and I am not refering to game violations.

I am really surprised at some of the responces I have seen here.  Just maybe, you will look at this differently knowing that you are the one that made a mistake, not your son.

Kdog


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## PWalls (Nov 28, 2007)

wack em said:


> Consider this, you just shot this big 9 and he falls in his tracks making your secound buck of the season. then out steps the big main frame 10 with a 6" droptine, the only droptine buck you have ever seen. How many of you would be able to resist shooting him too? It'd be real easy to just forget about the lil 6 pointer you shot last week.




I would not. And, I hunt and know other hunters who would not.

It is apples to oranges to this thread. You describe a willfull and intentional breaking of the law. The original post describes an unintentional breaking of the law.


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## PWalls (Nov 28, 2007)

Kdog said:


> Better late than never.
> 
> If this had happend to me and my boy(s), by all means I would have told him to put the animal down had I not known it was a different buck.
> 
> ...




Excellent point. The adult would be the one at "fault".


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## BIGABOW (Nov 28, 2007)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> Sorry Bigabow, i been catching up.  The state they were hunting is a two buck state, just like GA...taking the little 6 point and then the other two would be 3 bucks in my book.  The father did not tag the buck and that is what i would have done.  I am lost in what you do not get??
> ...



IF YOU HUNT IN MORE THAN ONE STATE YOU CAN LIMIT OUT ON EACH STATE ?  Or am I mistaken somewhere?
for example :these fellas that do shows on outdoor channel and the like. This whole thing dont make sence to me? Seems they were well within the law? if the youngster had licsences in both states and they had not killed more than TWO BUCKS PER STATE if thats the law in each state.
If I hunt Ga and I kill two bucks here and tag them then I am legal. If hunt Alabama and have lisences to kill two bucks and do so ,and tag them ,thats four bucks and I am still legal. if I go to Piedmont the same year and kill two bucks with the legal permit ,thats six bucks.
there is no need for DNR to get involved, Im totally legal.
hope that helps clear it up a bit.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Randy said:


> You may not and since you continue to think ethics are personal then you will not understand nor ever accept that most of our social group of hunters probably consider shooting a yearling as unethical even though legal.
> 
> 
> you may not even care that the social group considers you unethical, but the fact is you will be considered by that social group unethical by doing so.
> .



Number 1 is an opinion only and that group is entitled to it. Fair enough for me.

Number 2 your exactly right, I could care less what a group thinks. A group will not decide the way I hunt unless it becomes law, I was never one to fall to peer pressure.

Im a grown man that benefits and pays for my choices good or bad. I need no group to OK the way I hunt. I am capable of making those decisions.    

But those votes do not even come close to representing the hunting world. There are hundreds of hunters out there that are not apart of these hunting forums and do not even read GON. They basically pick up the regs every year and abide by them. So before I put my check on what the majority thought, I would look inside the real world. I by myself know personally 40 to 50 hunters that are just like me that could care less about politics and polls. If you took a true poll and required every hunter to fill it out and vote in order to purchase a license, I think you would see the majority as it appears is not really the majority. It never ceases to amaze me that when your sitting in a group of 15 to 20 folks, about 4 will find just about everything in the world unethical, yet they are the majority social club.


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## discounthunter (Nov 28, 2007)

wow! an "honest" mistake!?  by choosing not to track the first deer properly was the mistake. but a guess since they are :good and honest" people its ok. just remember this the next time you dont see anymore bucks in the area . i hope you all take the same mentallity to trespassers who:honestly "didnt know they were on private land when they shot the deer. sometimes this board just cracks me up with the double standards.


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## 243Savage (Nov 28, 2007)

Good grief...another "E" word thread being run into the ground.   Big deal...the kid hammered an extra deer he shouldn't have.  Should it have happened?, no, but circumstances as they were, it did.  Consider it lesson learned and get on with life.  For some of you who would advocate approaching the authorities to report or admit what was done.....I'd be willing to bet if that was you and your kid, you'd be singing a different tune.  Go tell that lie to someone who will believe it.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

243Savage said:


> Good grief...another "E" word thread being run into the ground.   Big deal...the kid hammered an extra deer he shouldn't have.  Should it have happened, no, but circumstances as they were, it did.  Consider it lesson learned and get on with life.  For some of you who would advocate approaching the authorities to report or admit what was done.....I'd be willing to bet if that was you and your kid, you'd be singing a different tune.  Go tell that lie to someone who will believe it.



There are perfectly good reasons to trespass regardless of what the law or the social club may think


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## discounthunter (Nov 28, 2007)

it wasnt my kid so yes i will chime in about being illegal and doing illegal things, teaching kids to be illegal , ect ect.

 btw this was  not an ethics question this is was  a legal question.


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

243Savage said:


> Good grief...another "E" word thread being run into the ground.   Big deal...the kid hammered an extra deer he shouldn't have.  Should it have happened?, no, but circumstances as they were, it did.  Consider it lesson learned and get on with life.  For some of you who would advocate approaching the authorities to report or admit what was done.....I'd be willing to bet if that was you and your kid, you'd be singing a different tune.  Go tell that lie to someone who will believe it.



I just dialed *GSP.  I just turned in my wife.  She was going 72 in a 65.  Do I get a reward?

Turn in your kid?  Like I said earlier: He will never trust you again when a bad situation comes up.


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## deerslayer2 (Nov 28, 2007)

Gunsmoke said:


> Why involve the  dnr or  authorites? he would probally get fined loose his gun &  license etc for a honest mistake.just use dads tag and  be done with bucks for the season.


and capes and headi know it is not legal but id tag it for my son and be done move on and not tell anyone but learn a leason along with my son


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> I just dialed *GSP.  I just turned in my wife.  She was going 72 in a 65.  Do I get a reward?



Maybe, but its gonna cost you more than you will get from GSP


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## 243Savage (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> There are perfectly good reasons to trespass regardless of what the law or the social club may think



One would think that would be considered unethical huh?


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

243Savage said:


> One would think that would be considered unethical huh?



Not just one, but the majority would............


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## ryano (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> There are perfectly good reasons to trespass


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## 243Savage (Nov 28, 2007)

3and8fan4ever said:


>



And yet once again....Mt. Dew gets spit all over my monitor.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

3and8fan4ever said:


>



Bait!!


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

Thats funny right there, I dont care who you are or how ya mama dresses ya, thats funny.


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## dutchman (Nov 28, 2007)

3and8fan4ever said:


>



That's just plain wrong! On so many levels.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kdog  
Better late than never. 

If this had happend to me and my boy(s), by all means I would have told him to put the animal down had I not known it was a different buck.

Once we got there and found two bucks, I would have had to sit down and have a talk with my boy(s) and explained that "I" made a mistake by telling him to shoot again. It would have been my fault, and "I" would have accepted the responsibility for it since "I" was supervising the hunt.

This seems to be the point everyone is missing. You are not turning in your son, you are turning yourself in for making a mistake. 99% of DNR rangers, DNR Rangers can correct me if I am wrong, would understand how the mistake was made, and would issue a warning or mild citation. They may also confiscate one or both of the bucks. You, supervising the hunt, would be the one responsible for your son's actions, and you need to be the responsible one here. If not, this small lie could turn into major infractions, and I am not refering to game violations.

I am really surprised at some of the responces I have seen here. Just maybe, you will look at this differently knowing that you are the one that made a mistake, not your son.

Kdog 



PWalls said:


> Excellent point. The adult would be the one at "fault".





This is the point the kid did not intentionally or knowingly break the law.  But his Dad, intentionally and knowingly broke the law.  The Dad could have been a standup guy and taught his son a valuable lesson while earning even greater respect from him.

Call it Ethical, moral or not, the right thing to do never changes and seldom leaves you questioning your actions.


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## discounthunter (Nov 28, 2007)

goes to show you that when a big buck is involved many people ,regardless of their "ethics" become illigal poachers.


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## hicktownboy (Nov 28, 2007)

knifemaker said:


> How many of us would have shot the same number of rounds at the same deer, not knowing they were different deer?  (In the same situation)   Now rethink some of your answers.



Well said!!


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## hicktownboy (Nov 28, 2007)

discounthunter said:


> goes to show you that when a big buck is involved many people ,regardless of their "ethics" become illigal poachers.



It was an accident if you read the whole story.  He wasn't hunting illegal, he just made an honest mistake!


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> kid did not intentionally or knowingly break the law.  But his Dad, intentionally and knowingly broke the law.  The Dad could have been a standup guy and taught his son a valuable lesson while earning even greater respect from him.
> 
> Call it Ethical, moral or not, the right thing to do never changes and seldom leaves you questioning your actions.


Cant argue with the fact your right and the right thing to do never changes, but if your going to be a straight shooter in one area, are you going to be a straight shooter in all areas? Would you call GSP and tell them you made a mistake, did not pay attention and ran 60 in a 50?


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## PWalls (Nov 28, 2007)

3and8fan4ever said:


> :



Man ya'll gotta let that go.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

PWalls said:


> Man ya'll gotta let that go.



You have to look over him, He is all jacked up on Mountain Dew.............


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 28, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Cant argue with the fact your right and the right thing to do never changes, but if your going to be a straight shooter in one area, are you going to be a straight shooter in all areas? Would you call GSP and tell them you made a mistake, did not pay attention and ran 60 in a 50?



No, but I am not going to blame the GSP either.  I am going to explain to my 13 year old son that I was breaking the law and that I hope he will not make the same mistake.

Another topic all together.

I am not claiming that I have never broke the law, far from it. But when my sons starting hunting and driving it gave me a new appreciation of why we should try to obey the rules.

Another quick story. My oldest son came home from his driving test and said he had missed one question about crossing guard at RR crossing, he got it wrong because he remembered me driving around one.
This is my point.  The smallest of things register with kids and you are most likely the biggest thing in their lives. Big responsibility, do the right thing.


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## Spotlite (Nov 28, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> No, but I am not going to blame the GSP either.  I am going to explain to my 13 year old son that I was breaking the law and that I hope he will not make the same mistake.
> 
> 
> Big responsibility, do the right thing.



Could not agree more. 

Now what would be the difference in sitting down with him and explaining what had happened and the mistake made with the deer and the driving? Both were illegal and both a mistake. The right thing to do never changes.

If we fail to follow through in one area, we basically send the message that they can pick and choose which one to be a straight shoter on. JMO.


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## dawg2 (Nov 28, 2007)

OK, I'm lost.  

What is the deal with the sunflowers???


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## elfiii (Nov 28, 2007)

243Savage said:


> And yet once again....Mt. Dew gets spit all over my monitor.



You better get off that narcotic boy. Its' gonna' make you null and void. 



dawg2 said:


> OK, I'm lost.
> 
> What is the deal with the sunflowers???



Its' a long story. No need to go into it in this thread.


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## ryano (Nov 28, 2007)

my apologies.   it was a joke and hopefully will be taken as such by the man it was aimed at when he sees it..............its water under the bridge.

just trying to bring some laughter into such a serious whizzin match............again no harm intended.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 29, 2007)

Spotlite said:


> Could not agree more.
> 
> Now what would be the difference in sitting down with him and explaining what had happened and the mistake made with the deer and the driving? Both were illegal and both a mistake. The right thing to do never changes.
> 
> If we fail to follow through in one area, we basically send the message that they can pick and choose which one to be a straight shoter on. JMO.



I think we agree on this but are talking about two different things.  I am talking about the issue of being honest.  I full well know that we all take liberties with certanin aspects of the law.

But when faced with a situation, where you can tell the truth and take the consequences or tell a lie and get away with something, I just stand for telling the truth, this is the what I am referring to as the right thing to do.

In the story the Dad just did not tell the truth.  Not only that he had to fabricate to stories.  I just had rather my two sons respect me for being honest rather than being able to lie my way out of trouble.

No one is going to be on the right side of everytime, but everytime there is a right thing to do.


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## fulldraw74 (Nov 29, 2007)

3and8fan4ever said:


>



As to quote another in this thread..... "a mistake but Illegal".......


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## Spotlite (Nov 29, 2007)

jimbo4116 said:


> I think we agree on this but are talking about two different things.  I am talking about the issue of being honest.  I full well know that we all take liberties with certanin aspects of the law.
> 
> But when faced with a situation, where you can tell the truth and take the consequences or tell a lie and get away with something, I just stand for telling the truth, this is the what I am referring to as the right thing to do.
> 
> ...



Cant argue with that. Good post.


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## tad1 (Nov 29, 2007)

What a strange decision for the father to make to call the warden and tell him a boldfaced lie.  That to me was the worst decision he could have made.
I would have either: called the warden and explained what happened and hope that the worst thing that any reasonable warden would do is confiscate the 2nd buck shot by the son.  
Or (and most likely) I would have said son, we made an honest mistake, I'll take that buck off my limit this year and we'll try to learn from our experience. 
And I would let my son know that I was okay with either decision he wanted to make on the matter
 And when those 2 bucks were hanging up above the fireplace for years to come I wouldn't hesitate to tell anyone about the interesting and exciting circumstances of that morning hunt that led to their demise!

                                                      Good Hunting,  
                                                                            J.T.


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## grim (Nov 29, 2007)

This world must be pretty boring for some of you, with it being completely black and white.


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## stick'n'string (Nov 29, 2007)

*My 2 cents*

If you do not call DNR and report what happened you are breaking the law. I personally "know for a fact" that I would have reported it. I also would have explained to my son what "WE" had done wrong. By reporting it I would have been turning myself in not my son. Laws are not made to be convenient. If everyone had a conscience we would not need laws.


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## jimbo4116 (Nov 29, 2007)

stick'n'string said:


> If you do not call DNR and report what happened you are breaking the law. I personally "know for a fact" that I would have reported it. I also would have explained to my son what "WE" had done wrong. By reporting it I would have been turning myself in not my son. Laws are not made to be convenient. If everyone had a conscience we would not need laws.



Worth a great deal more than 2 cents.


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## dawg2 (Nov 29, 2007)

stick'n'string said:


> If you do not call DNR and report what happened you are breaking the law. I personally "know for a fact" that I would have reported it. I also would have explained to my son what "WE" had done wrong. By reporting it I would have been turning myself in not my son. Laws are not made to be convenient. If everyone had a conscience we would not need laws.



So you have never broken ANY law under any circumstance?  Is that what you are saying?

sure you haven't


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## Randy (Nov 29, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> So you have never broken ANY law under any circumstance?  Is that what you are saying?
> 
> sure you haven't



We are not talking about any law here.  We are talking about the specific issue of what this Father and son should have done here.


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## dawg2 (Nov 29, 2007)

Randy said:


> We are not talking about any law here.  We are talking about the specific issue of what this Father and son should have done here.



I think he expanded that a little further than the issue of the deer when he said:



stick'n'string said:


> Laws are not made to be convenient. If everyone had a conscience we would not need laws.


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 29, 2007)

Was it in Ga or Fla?


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## hogdgz (Nov 29, 2007)

Simple, the son has one buck tag left and the dad has two. They both use one of there tags to tag the bucks. Whats so hard about that?


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## dawg2 (Nov 29, 2007)

hogdgz said:


> Simple, the son has one buck tag left and the dad has two. They both use one of there tags to tag the bucks. Whats so hard about that?



People reading WAY too much into this.  Fill the tags!


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 29, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> I M A wHooters girl?



pretty much settles this issue...


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## dawg2 (Nov 29, 2007)

FX Jenkins said:


> pretty much settles this issue...



I see I am going to have to delete that response in the other thread now that you have posted it WAY out of context.

That was cold-blooded


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## FX Jenkins (Nov 29, 2007)

dawg2 said:


> I see I am going to have to delete that response in the other thread now that you have posted it WAY out of context.
> 
> That was cold-blooded





and I thought you where a thick skinned whooters girl


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## dawg2 (Nov 29, 2007)

FX Jenkins said:


> and I thought you where a thick skinned whooters girl



You just wait  I never forget


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## Oldstick (Nov 29, 2007)

I don't get it.  Seems like the main concern of the DNR would be the number of deer killed vs the number of valid licenses issued.  I know that's probably not the correct answer according to the law.

But if I were a GW and I saw a group obviously hunting together, let alone a father-son, and I actually witnessed one person deliberately shoot 3 bucks, I think I would ask to see everyone's records and ask who's tags all three are going on, and if enough empty tags are volunteered it's "say thanks to your buddies and have a nice day".


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## Dead Eye Eddy (Dec 3, 2007)

Okay, I only read 2 pages of posts, but here's my 2 cents.

It was completely unintentional.  What are the odds that the buck you just saw fall and the buck you just saw stand up from the same spot were not the same buck?  Dad should tag the second buck and forget about it.

What would have happened if they had realized the second buck was a different deer?  Here's what would have happened.  Son would have handed Dad the rifle, and Dad would have shot the buck and tagged it legally.  To my knowledge, 2 hunters hunting together don't have to have 2 guns to both kill deer.

As for the Son telling the story, just don't tell about the 6-pt already taken.  It's a great story and two great bucks.  The kid's 13, and it was an accident.  Don't do anything that would spoil his enthusiasm for hunting or taking game.


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## SELFBOW (Dec 3, 2007)

I say call dnr. chances are under the circumstances they take one deer and not charge anyone.


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## t bird (Dec 3, 2007)

*11p&Y*

Were is this place at exactly???   GPS Coordinates....???


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## Killer41 (Dec 4, 2007)

Dad tags and mounts both deer and has a story of a lifetime.  It is not so much of an ethics question, as it is doing the right thing to protect your children.  I'd do it in a second for any of my family!


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