# liberty



## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

Galations 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Many Christian brothers and sisters are still in bondage...Why?


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

Since the church began, Christians have found themselves in bondage--unnecessarily! 
Romans 8:15

15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”

 I see people placing themselves in it, and putting others in it by " Denominational Laws" & " Worldly Desires and lusts"


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Galations 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
> 
> Many Christian brothers and sisters are still in bondage...Why?



I think because freedom is easy to abuse. We're not used to freedom. Wouldn't you say Christians as a whole are getting better at it than 100 years ago?
It's a fine line to balance freedom & discipleship.


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

It could be a matter of giving it all to our Lord.

 Im thinking of going through life knowing that eternity in glory awaits. Why worry about things here? Why bother with wanting things here? Commune with the Lord continuously giving Him all the glory for blessings and glory for giving us the burdens to bear that our brethren dont have to bare it. 

 Im not getting caught up in the bondage of the law or mans judgement. I will study the word, pray, commune and praise the Lord! If I want to do something thats ok with Jesus Im not going to worry what the Baptist think.... or any other denomination for that matter. Jesus did not shed His blood so that we would find ourselves back in bondage of laws or mans rules---- Im Free! Thanks be to God!


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> It could be a matter of giving it all to our Lord.
> 
> Im thinking of going through life knowing that eternity in glory awaits. Why worry about things here? Why bother with wanting things here? Commune with the Lord continuously giving Him all the glory for blessings and glory for giving us the burdens to bear that our brethren dont have to bare it.
> 
> Im not getting caught up in the bondage of the law or mans judgement. I will study the word, pray, commune and praise the Lord! If I want to do something thats ok with Jesus Im not going to worry what the Baptist think.... or any other denomination for that matter. Jesus did not shed His blood so that we would find ourselves back in bondage of laws or mans rules---- Im Free! Thanks be to God!



I think I understand where your thread is directed. Somewhat towards denominations but not limited to. Man finally being free from rules as a free man but then placing himself right back into slavery by having to live by a set of rules of a denomination or creed. 
One must believe in preterism or mellenniumism, trinity or oneness, he11 or annihilation, immersion or spiritual baptism,  physical or spiritual resurrection, election or freewill, and on & on.
Somehow our beliefs become such a major part of our Christianity that Christ and our freedom through him is cast aside as we focus on the more important(in our minds) aspects of Christianity.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2014)

The Church of Christ isn't a denomination but some say by giving your Church a name and listing your denom, I mean Church's beliefs, you become a denomination. 
The strange thing is though we all have certain beliefs. We believe that as Christians we must follow these beliefs, ways, works, aspects, or whatever you must call them. I can see where one might think one has suddenly become the slave to rules Jesus was against as was the  Pharisees & Sedducees.
I say Jesus was against but he did preach some commandments for us to follow. Again in comes the double edged sword.


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I understand where your thread is directed. Somewhat towards denominations but not limited to. Man finally being free from rules as a free man but then placing himself right back into slavery by having to live by a set of rules of a denomination or creed.
> One must believe in preterism or mellenniumism, trinity or oneness, he11 or annihilation, immersion or spiritual baptism,  physical or spiritual resurrection, election or freewill, and on & on.
> Somehow our beliefs become such a major part of our Christianity that Christ and our freedom through him is cast aside as we focus on the more important(in our minds) aspects of Christianity.



Amen Brother!


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2014)

Maybe the thing about the rule following that bothered Jesus was how people get so wrapped up in the rule following that soon the rule following becomes more important than JESUS. 
I think he wants us to live a life of worship & discipleship but not to the point that worship & discipleship take over the commandment of LOVE.


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I say Jesus was against but he did preach some commandments for us to follow. Again in comes the double edged sword.



1 commandment. Love the brethren takes care of all. If you know Jesus as your savior, you can't help but to love the brethren....This is lost in our denominational churches with rules/ laws.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2014)

When looking a Christianity as it progresses and reforms through the ages and even the history of the Baptist of Georgia (I'm a former Baptist), I can see a progression towards  more FREEDOM IN CHRIST and less rule following.
My ancestors in South Georgia were way big on Christian rules and some were less big on living a Christian life. I am speaking in general terms as nothing applies to everyone. I'm talking of ancestors who perhaps were ignorant to the FREEDOM IN CHRIST way of life. They were more into the "rules" part of Christianity. 
They were for the most part good people and would truly help their neighbor even more than us. We really need to work on that part of Christianity. But when I hear certain things of how they  lived, treated certain groups of people, etc, they kinda missed the mark on the message of LOVE as taught by Jesus. I do feel this was somewhat out of ignorance. 
Maybe God is slowly revealing his truth as we progress through the ages.


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## Artfuldodger (May 26, 2014)

It's easy for me to talk of this freedom and how we should live & love as pertaining to others but what about me? I know Jesus as my Savior and I too often miss the mark of loving others. I also miss the mark on living the Christina life and I'm not even a member of a denomination. Meaning I don't have their rules to follow.
I think this is why  me and others  question this freedom in Christ. I often feel I'm not worthy or I'm not doing my part. What's weird is I see others who act and do worse than me who have this Freedom that I don't have. They lust and have anger in their hearts and yet have Freedom in Christ. It's almost like I'm jealous that they have this Freedom and the way they live and yet I think I'm living better and don't have this freedom. I should know it's not about how one lives but when I read these homosexual forums, I'm reminded it is about how one lives. Suddenly my freedom vanishes. If the Gays can lose their Freedom then so can I. I'm no more worthy. My 10,000 sins are worse than their one sin. I am working on having blessed assurance but I often backslide. 
So as you can see Freedom through Christ isn't an easy concept. Easy believism, is it really that easy? That's what the Discipleship Preacher asked me so naturally I'm gonna question it.  
This "free grace" theology is definitely an acceptance process. Those old "Hard Shell" laws/rules might take a few generations to wash out.


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## hobbs27 (May 26, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What's weird is I see others who act and do worse than me who have this Freedom that I don't have. They lust and have anger in their hearts and yet have Freedom in Christ. It's almost like I'm jealous that they have this Freedom and the way they live and yet I think I'm living better and don't have this freedom. .



Consider this Luke 18

10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 I once placed myself in bondage of a law that doesnt exist by giving myself a position with God in regards to others. Now I know there is only two positions. The ones of God and the ones not of God.

 It takes little effort to recognize the brethren, some need lifting up, some need correcting but we all need to love one another, and God will give us direction in how to respond to one another if we humble ourselves and submit to Him...IMO


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Consider this Luke 18
> 
> 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
> 
> ...



Thanks for that verse, I'm slowly moving away from being like the Pharisee and trying to be more like the Tax Collector.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> It could be a matter of giving it all to our Lord.
> 
> Im thinking of going through life knowing that eternity in glory awaits. Why worry about things here? Why bother with wanting things here? Commune with the Lord continuously giving Him all the glory for blessings and glory for giving us the burdens to bear that our brethren dont have to bare it.
> 
> Im not getting caught up in the bondage of the law or mans judgement. I will study the word, pray, commune and praise the Lord! If I want to do something thats ok with Jesus Im not going to worry what the Baptist think.... or any other denomination for that matter. Jesus did not shed His blood so that we would find ourselves back in bondage of laws or mans rules---- Im Free! Thanks be to God!



I get confused as to "giving it all" or "surrendering it all" to the Lord. My freewill keeps getting in the way. 
Let's start with worry. Bills are due, a child is hurt, and life gets t'jus. My freewill tells me I must act. I must react to these needs and challenges. I must provide for my family.
I do want things here on earth. I do have wants and needs as does my family. I do pray for God's help. He does provide. I still have trouble giving or turning my whole life completely to Jesus in every and all respects and I don't believe he wants me to.
Maybe God doesn't expect me to render my total freewill. Maybe he wants me to learn to use my freewill to love him and others. 
Liberty & surrender requires a lot of trust. I don't mind doing this but I haven't figured out if it means I can sit back and let the Lord make all of my decisions. 
I can't go to bed at night and just say "I'll let God handle this problem in my life." I can only ask for his guidance. 
 At least this is my take on Liberty in Christ.


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## hobbs27 (May 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> " I can only ask for his guidance.
> At least this is my take on Liberty in Christ.



Yep, obedience is better than sacrifice. 

God gave me my wife. It's up to me to love her and provide for her as He wants.

God gave me my job. It's up to me to do it in a matter that glorifies Him.

Everything I have is a gift from God, I would have nothing if not for my Lord. He can take it all away at anytime and I'll still have my Lord which is all I need. In the meantime I'm going to do the best I can to take care of what He has given me.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 27, 2014)

This "freedom" parallels the story of Moses leading out of slavery. Pharoah worked them harder, uped the quota, more straw, more brick. Sadly, this is where many new believers start in Christianity. Rather than realize that we are free from "works" or attempting to be good enough, they actually approach our faith as though they must work harder. Sometimes it is the result of bad preaching where "they load them up with loads they can not carry". Picture that slave of Pharoah loaded with more straw than ever because the quota was uped.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

More feelings on Liberty in Christ. As I understand Christianity, I was born into a world of sin. I could never stop sinning and still can't. No matter how hard I try, I can't escape my fate of eternal death alone or by works.
Good news has arrived, Jesus came and died for my sins. 
Before this lifesaving event people had laws/commandments. They could never follow these laws no matter how hard they tried. Some say these laws were made to show us we couldn't follow them and thus needed Jesus from the beginning. Through the death of Jesus sins, which I couldn't quit doing anyway, will not send me to eternal death/punishment. I am no longer yoked with these overburdening sins. I am no longer a SLAVE to sin. Sin has no bearing on my eternity. Sin matters not to me whether I still sin or can't sin any longer as a Christian. Sin no longer counts. I no longer need a list of Laws of the Denominations. I no longer need a denomination  covenant. I no longer need a "Statement of Faith."
I'm free, free like the wind. Jesus has taken over my life. I've surrendered all to Jesus. He is in control. I have "blessed assurance." I'm saved and that's the end of it, Amen.
Good riddance of all of those rules, commandments, laws, covenants, one must believe this and not that, one must study this and not that, and on & on. I totally get it. Thank God because I wasn't making much headway in the law keeping department.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

Now along comes one of those biblical contradictions that Hobbs doesn't see. Perhaps not a contradiction but one perceived by me and many other Christians. This contradiction is in how Jesus, the apostles, epistles, Paul and whomever tell us how we must live or else. After this whole concept of salvation is delivered we are given new laws, rules, commandments or maybe the old ones were never removed. 
Next is freewill as a Christian. Was my Freewill suddenly removed and replaced by God's will?  If I have surrendered all then my life is now controlled by God's will. There is nothing that I as a Christian can do to snatch me from God's hand. Liberty is liberty. 
How does this Liberty work with repentance? I hate to bring up the homosexuality issue but once saved is once saved. Where is their freedom and where is mine? Salvation is salvation, we are all vessels of clay at the hands of the Potter. God has taken over our vessels and our eternity is secured, except.
Except what? Are there any exceptions? Again what about repentance?
Don't give me freedom and then say, except, therefore, if, lest you, nevertheless, unless, etc.

I'm not bitter, just confused.


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## hobbs27 (May 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Now along comes one of those biblical contradictions that Hobbs doesn't see. Perhaps not a contradiction but one perceived by me and many other Christians. This contradiction is in how Jesus, the apostles, epistles, Paul and whomever tell us how we must live or else. After this whole concept of salvation is delivered we are given new laws, rules, commandments or maybe the old ones were never removed.
> Next is freewill as a Christian. Was my Freewill suddenly removed and replaced by God's will?  If I have surrendered all then my life is now controlled by God's will. There is nothing that I as a Christian can do to snatch me from God's hand. Liberty is liberty.
> How does this Liberty work with repentance? I hate to bring up the homosexuality issue but once saved is once saved. Where is their freedom and where is mine? Salvation is salvation, we are all vessels of clay at the hands of the Potter. God has taken over our vessels and our eternity is secured, except.
> Except what? Are there any exceptions? Again what about repentance?



Art, The law was bondage. Grace is Liberty.

If grace has replaced the law there is no place for sin. Sin can only exist with law. There is also no place for death but glorification---Only for Christians. Others will perish for they did not enter the kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

Let's look at some of those therefore & nevertheless. I'm hoping the nevertheless is like Paul saying "and such were some of you" meaning it only applies to non-believers:

2 Tim 2:17-20
17    And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18    Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20    But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

After Paul says this he ends it with a nevertheless clause like when he talks about sexual sins he ends it with a "as such were some of you" clause.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, The law was bondage. Grace is Liberty.
> 
> If grace has replaced the law there is no place for sin. Sin can only exist with law. There is also no place for death but glorification---Only for Christians. Others will perish for they did not enter the kingdom.



I hope what you are saying is "A Christian can no longer sin" as how can you with no law. But you do see how Christians read Paul and others and somehow add rules back into the equation? I'm not the only one that sees this and I don't even want to see it. Please convince me otherwise. I recently watched a David Platt video. Forumites like him and his discipleship doctrine.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

Acts 20:27-31
27    For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
28    Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29    For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30    Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31    Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
(KJV)


1 Tim 1:18-20
18    This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19    Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20    Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Who is this warning of wolves for that they must "take heed?" 
What teachings are we a Christians need to be concerned with that would in any way affect our salvation?I'm assuming none. False teachings, warned about, can't affect salvation. Who are the warnings of false teaching and falling away for?


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

2 Tim 4:2-4
2    Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4    And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Who will turn away their ears from the truth? Why reprove & rebuke if it doesn't really matter?


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

I guess I don't see the need of all of the warnings to standfast, take heed, be diligent, beware of false phrophets, etc. if God has overtaken my freewill and 2 Timothy 2:19 says:
19    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.


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## hobbs27 (May 27, 2014)

Art. Understand the warnings of the first church ...waiting for Christ return. Judaism was still in effect with a temple. They were still sacrificing animals. During this time there was two temples...One the OT temple in Jerusalem. The other , Man him/herself was another temple. 70 ad ended the old and brought in fully the new.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

Hobbs, you are blaming the denominations for adding rules back into the equation that Jesus removed.  I can see your point and gave some examples as to why they do this. I'm not saying it's right but I can see why they do this. I don't have all the answers but I can see where some of the denominations are getting their "rules." 
Maybe Liberty is wanted but hard to accept or understand.  One suddenly surrenders his life to Jesus for not living right and is then told nobody lives right. I can see the confusion. A murderer is suddenly told  his brother that hates is evenly wrong. An adulterer is told his brother that lust is equally guilty of his sin. They both see their sins as being worse and suddenly are told they aren't. They are told, in fact we are all told, it doesn't matter yet deep inside we still feel it does. We still feel and yet are taught works do matter although none of us are righteous without Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art. Understand the warnings of the first church ...waiting for Christ return. Judaism was still in effect with a temple. They were still sacrificing animals. During this time there was two temples...One the OT temple in Jerusalem. The other , Man him/herself was another temple. 70 ad ended the old and brought in fully the new.



Thanks for your patience with me. It is starting to make more sense in relation to who and when the apostles and epistles were talking to and when. No wonder people get confused if we can't even figure out who was being addressed and when.
I still read verses in the mindset that they are warning me to take heed, beware, standfast to the end, as such were some of you, and other letters Paul wrote to the Churches. Those verses appear to be warning Christians. Why did they need warning and I don't? Was it because before the return of Jesus they could lose their salvation and after the 70AD return of Jesus no Christian could lose their salvation?


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## Artfuldodger (May 27, 2014)

And in closing tonight and I hope this is to some early church and not me:
2 Tim 2:17-20
17    And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
18    Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
19    Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
20    But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

But then again why did the early churches need all of the warnings of false preachers that we don't need. I find it hard to believe that we don't still have false preachers.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Hobbs, you are blaming the denominations for adding rules back into the equation that Jesus removed.  I can see your point and gave some examples as to why they do this. I'm not saying it's right but I can see why they do this. I don't have all the answers but I can see where some of the denominations are getting their "rules."
> Maybe Liberty is wanted but hard to accept or understand.  One suddenly surrenders his life to Jesus for not living right and is then told nobody lives right. I can see the confusion. A murderer is suddenly told  his brother that hates is evenly wrong. An adulterer is told his brother that lust is equally guilty of his sin. They both see their sins as being worse and suddenly are told they aren't. They are told, in fact we are all told, it doesn't matter yet deep inside we still feel it does. We still feel and yet are taught works do matter although none of us are righteous without Jesus.



 A Christian doesnt need another Christian telling them they are doing wrong. If they are truly a Christian they will know by what Christ and the Holy Spirit reveals to them.

 A lost person however may need to be instructed on sin and what living in sin is doing to them--its killing them so that they will persish and not have everlasting life. Where we mess up is judging Christians and condemning the lost forever, not because of sin but because of our rules in the church. The bible says homosexuals cannot enter the kingdom of heaven--along with many other types of sinners. I believe this is true but I dont think we should ask them to not hear the word, because the word doesnt condemn the person, it gives the person a way out, by repentance they can have everlasting life just like the rest of us. Its a message of hope, not condemnation, we are all condemned to begin with.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> And in closing tonight and I hope this is to some early church and not me:
> 2 Tim 2:17-20
> 17    And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
> 18    Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
> ...



The false prophets was another sign to the early church. And yes we still have them today, John Hagee is a perfect example , Harold Camping was another. Human nature hasnt changed since the beginning, even though these signs and prophecies have come to fruition, the spirit will bear witness of those preaching the truth.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> A Christian doesnt need another Christian telling them they are doing wrong. If they are truly a Christian they will know by what Christ and the Holy Spirit reveals to them.
> 
> A lost person however may need to be instructed on sin and what living in sin is doing to them--its killing them so that they will persish and not have everlasting life. Where we mess up is judging Christians and condemning the lost forever, not because of sin but because of our rules in the church. The bible says homosexuals cannot enter the kingdom of heaven--along with many other types of sinners. I believe this is true but I dont think we should ask them to not hear the word, because the word doesnt condemn the person, it gives the person a way out, by repentance they can have everlasting life just like the rest of us. Its a message of hope, not condemnation, we are all condemned to begin with.



How can you say certain sins will keep a Christian out of the kingdom when this whole thread is about Liberty in Christ? Didn't you say that to a Christian the laws were done away with so there is no way a Christian can sin or at least if they do it won't count against them.

Paul said: And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul agrees with you before you changed your mind.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, The law was bondage. Grace is Liberty.
> 
> If grace has replaced the law there is no place for sin. Sin can only exist with law. There is also no place for death but glorification---Only for Christians. Others will perish for they did not enter the kingdom.



What about repentance? Is it just a one time need for Christians to repent? After a Christian repents and his salvation is granted by grace, there is no law. 
No law, no sin therefore no future repentance needed.
I don't see a need if one is in the Kingdom.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

I haven't changed my mind on this topic . I'm specifically speaking of liberty in Christ . Only Christians know this Liberty...and repentance is always a one time deal..look it up, it's a change. Repentance is to turn away from something to never go back. Homosexuals, drunkards , swindlers, etc. etc. Will all change from their ways if they repent and become true Christians in Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I haven't changed my mind on this topic . I'm specifically speaking of liberty in Christ . Only Christians know this Liberty...and repentance is always a one time deal..look it up, it's a change. Repentance is to turn away from something to never go back. Homosexuals, drunkards , swindlers, etc. etc. Will all change from their ways if they repent and become true Christians in Christ.



I'm sorry it appears you were adding stipulations to Liberty in Christ as one must repent. How or why does one repent or change if it isn't a part of salvation by grace?
How much change or repentance is necessary with Liberty in Christ. By adding the stipulation of change haven't we added works or law keeping back into the equation of salvation that your were against by starting this thread?

Again Paul said: And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Paul didn't say we would quit sinning but that it doesn't matter because we have been washed. This washing is needed because we as men can't quit sinning. It's in our nature. Now if the law has been abolished by the death of Jesus then how can a Christian sin? If he can't sin anymore or if he does and he has an advocate, then the sins don't count. There is no stipulation in salvation by grace.
I thought that was the whole point of this thread. Denominations of men added back the stipulations Jesus died for.
Living a Christian life is Part Two of Christianity. It comes after salvation. It's the part of living and loving. How to treat people, etc. How to worship and honor God.
True one would think a Christian would try his best to not sin but it's not going to keep him from the Kingdom. That's the whole concept of why Jesus died. None of us are righteous without Jesus. The man who hates his brother is guilty of murder. The man who lust is guilty of adultery. I'm no better without Jesus than a murderer or adulterer.
As a Christian I can never go back. The Law has been removed by the cross.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

Art I'm going to answer more thoroughly later, but the problems I see with denominational slavery is more like things concerning rules/ spoken and unspoken,  such as dress codes, tithing frequency and amounts. Children's church vs having children in sanctuary..types of hymns, types of music, or no music. These silly things. I've heard it all.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art I'm going to answer more thoroughly later, but the problems I see with denominational slavery is more like things concerning rules/ spoken and unspoken,  such as dress codes, tithing frequency and amounts. Children's church vs having children in sanctuary..types of hymns, types of music, or no music. These silly things. I've heard it all.



You started the thread with Paul saying:
Galations 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.

Do you really think the bondage Paul was talking about  was dress codes, tithing, hymns, and such.
When you mentioned denominations I thought you meant the ones that added things to God's grace for salvation like rules.
I do see churches evolving in the direction of Liberty and away from the yoke of slavery. Most denominations are becoming more liberal as their conservative ancesters pass away. Liberal leaing towards salvation by grace and conservative leaning towards law keeping.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

What Paul was referring to was the bondage of the law, you're correct, and we should have more discussion on that. I think many church doctrines are returning liberated people back to slavery, don't you? I'm not talking about lost sinners here but Christians.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> What Paul was referring to was the bondage of the law, you're correct, and we should have more discussion on that. I think many church doctrines are returning liberated people back to slavery, don't you? I'm not talking about lost sinners here but Christians.



Yes I do but I do see all or most denominations making improvements in not doing that. Churches following preachers like Steve McVey author of Gracewalk vs churches following preachers like David Platt author of Follwo Me.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

That's interesting Art, I'll have to look into their differences. I have heard some negative reviews on Platt in my circle but haven't investigated his beliefs.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

The differences in Grace vs Lordship salvation has a lot to do with how one views repentance. One must understand exactly what repentance means. It means more of repenting from dead works and changing to the Grace of God by having faith in Jesus.

Articles on repentance:
http://jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/repent.htm

http://biblestudies.davidstabernacle.net/what_is_repentance.html

This might help someone understand Liberty in Jesus better.


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## StriperAddict (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Galations 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
> 
> Many Christian brothers and sisters are still in bondage...Why?


 
Many Christians struggle with the veiled belief that their works define who they are...
I've known the drill for years. Grace was never explained, or, I didn't have eyes to see it for what it was -- by getting "busy" and "trying to keep" all them commands.
My strength vanished in a death, Christ and mine, and a pure joy came when both sides of the cross were awakened:

The side that dealt will _all_ my acts of sin by the blood of Christ;
and especially the side of my adamic nature being crucified/_erradicated_ in my spirit man by the body of Christ...
That 2nd part trips up many a tired, worn out saint. What a shame that so many don't realize they are truely a "new creation".  They believe the old man is still alive and they have to beat him to a death (that has already been accomplished) by dicipleship, prayer and service.
Rom 6 and 7 spell out a totally different, liberating picture.

Bless God for His incredible _gift_ !!


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## StriperAddict (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art I'm going to answer more thoroughly later, but the problems I see with denominational slavery is more like things concerning rules/ spoken and unspoken, such as dress codes, tithing frequency and amounts. Children's church vs having children in sanctuary..types of hymns, types of music, or no music. These silly things. I've heard it all.


 
I've said before... it's more 'sinister' than that...

The devil is actively making the law become "that thing" which defines a Christians righteousness,

when the law itself,
our enmity,
was put to death on a cross...

I wish I had more time... and I look forward to more of your take on this.

One final:
As far as spiritual warfare goes,
this _liberty vs law_ topic is really where the rubber meets the road!


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

Matthew 21:32, “For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him.”

           The best way to interpret the Bible is to allow the Scripture to speak for itself. Concerning our text verse, the chief priests and the elders of the people came to Jesus to question His authority. Jesus rebuked them for their unbelief. They had heard the preaching of John the Baptist. They had seen the publicans and harlots believe on Jesus. Yet, the Bible says they repented not themselves.

    Had they repented they would have believed. That is what Jesus said. Jesus didn't say they would have forsaken their sins or surrendered their lives to God if they repented. No, rather, Jesus said they would have BELIEVED on Him had they repented. Biblical repentance is turning to Jesus to be forgiven of one's sins. It's that simple. 

It is wrong to teach that a person must repent first, and then believe second; that is a false doctrine. The Bible teaches that the man who believes on Jesus has also repented. They happen simultaneously. One who has turned to Jesus for salvation has also turned his back against sin. This is Biblical salvation, evidenced by the plain words of John 20:31, “But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.” You don't turn from your sins to trust Jesus; you turn to Jesus to be forgiven of your sins. Amen!

“Repentance is not some little silly, 'I'm sorry.' Repentance is not simply a fear of God. Repentance is not a monk fasting and afflicting his body in a monastery. Repentance is not remorse because of sin's consequences. Repentance is not penance performed before the pope as you kiss his toe... Repentance is not being sorry for what I've done wrong. It is not confessing one's sins to a priest. It is not just conviction of sin. It is not the signing of a pledge of abstinence. Repentance is that thing when you come before God and see yourself as you are, and see Him as he is, and say with Isaiah 'Woe is me, for I am unclean!'” —Pastor Jack Hyles (1926-2001)

 “You must not expect that you will be perfect in 'repentance' before you are saved. No Christian can be perfect. 'Repentance' is a grace. Some people preach it as a condition of salvation. Condition of nonsense! There are no conditions of salvation. God gives the salvation himself...” — Charles Spurgeon

http://jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/repent.htm


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

To repent literally means to have a change of mind or spirit towards God and toward sin. It means to turn from your sins, earnestly, with all your heart, and trust in Jesus Christ to save you.

    SOURCE: What Must I DO To Be Saved, by Dr. John R. Rice

Considering this quote by itself, one could be misled to believe that Brother Rice was teaching Lordship Salvation; BUT, he certainly is not. Dr. Rice goes on to state...

    The change in your heart, sinner, is God's part and you may be sure He will attend to that. Your part is to simply believe in Him. Whatever else is necessary in your eternal salvation, the Lord attends to when you trust in Him, or believe in Him.

    SOURCE: What Must I DO To Be Saved, by Dr. John R. Rice

    One who believes in Christ has repented.

    SOURCE: What Must I DO To Be Saved, by Dr. John R. Rice

    "Repentance is inseparable from faith.  The Greek word for repentance in the Bible simply means a change of mind; that is, a wholesome change of attitude toward sin and toward God.  One who turns his heart to trust in Christ has, naturally, turned his heart away from the love of sin."

    SOURCE: Dr. Rice, Here is My Question...; pg. 248, by Dr. John R. Rice, Sword Of The Lord Publishers; ISBN: 0-87398-158-8

Conclusion

There are many critics these days who attack soulwinners who are getting the job done. They accuse us of teaching “easy-believism.” Bless God it's easy to be saved... you come as a SINNER and you trust the SAVIOR! It's that simple. The Gospel is not difficult as some try to make it. It's easy to be saved. 

http://jesus-is-savior.com/Basics/repent.htm


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

One could say repentance or change could be from following laws or dead works and toward Free Grace.

From an article by David Redmond:

Repentance from Dead Works.
Many associate repentance with a strong emotion or shedding of tears. Others associate it with some special religious rite and ordinances. This is PENANCE not REPENTANCE. Many people think repentance means to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and confess your sins. Unfortunately for the many, that is not what repentance is. Repentance has nothing to do with emotion or the confession of sins, but instead, has to do with the changing of our way of thinking. 

In Matthew 3:2, John the Baptist said "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". In Matthew 4:17, Jesus preached "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". In Acts 2:38, Peter said "Repent". In Acts 17:30, Paul stated that God "commandeth all men every where to repent".

In all of the preceding scriptures, the Greek word for "repent" is metanoeo, which means: to think differently, to change one's mind (for better), to change one's way of thinking. Therefore, concerning our basic approach to God, the word repentance has to do with the changing of our way of thinking. Prior to being saved, our natural way of thinking tells us that in order to approach God, we must do something to obtain God's favor. As we will see, there is nothing we can do, based on our own merit, to obtain God's favor . Thus, we must repent, change our way of thinking. 

Notice in Mark 1:5 that ALL who were baptized of John in the Jordan confessed their sins. This is a very profound statement. Most of Christianity interprets this verse to say that after they were baptized they began reciting all the sins they ever committed. Instead, let's look at what this verse really says. The word "confessed" is the Greek word exomologeo, which means: to profess or acknowledge openly. The Greek word translated as "sins" is hamartia, which means: (literally) to miss the mark; sin as the causative factor for acts of disobedience, the sin nature, or sin (singular or plural). The majority of the times in which this word is used, it's context has to do with sin as the fallen state of human nature or sin as the causative factor of disobedience.

http://biblestudies.davidstabernacle.net/what_is_repentance.html


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> I've said before... it's more 'sinister' than that...
> 
> The devil is actively making the law become "that thing" which defines a Christians righteousness,
> 
> ...



Im not so sure the devil gets credit for people turning back to the law, but I too wish you had more time, cause I like what you're saying .


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

What is the Basic Difference Between
Primitive Baptists and Other Religious
Societies?
The basic difference is that Primitive Baptists believe in salvation by grace. There are really
only two positions a person can have on this matter. One is that salvation is by grace, and
the other is that salvation is by works. It cannot be a combination of both.
A person may say that he believes in salvation by
grace, but if he sets forth any act of man's will, such as repentance, faith, baptism, or
hearing the gospel as a condition for obtaining it, then this position must be put on the
works side. Primitive Baptist believe salvation is of the Lord, it is by His grace, and nothing
needs to be added to it.
We do believe that good works accompany eternal salvation. 

I tend to agree with my Primitive Baptist brothers on this. 
As some of you know I've struggled and gone back and forth on adding other things to Free Grace.
Kinda strange since the whole point of Jesus coming was to die for our sins. Man could not become righteous no matter how hard he tried.
Paul said "and such were some of you." Now I know he was talking about me.


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

Art, Im unable to keep up with you again. You sure have a grasp on your scattered mind..Im jealous   You can cover more subjects in a few minutes than I can grasp in days.


 I think we have a different idea on salvation..maybe? Im a if saved always saved person. I believe in being made new by salvation. I believe in saved by grace but I also know the bible put restrictions on entering the kingdom that we cannot deny. I also believe that one must repent to be saved, but I dont think that is a work but a realization.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Im not so sure the devil gets credit for people turning back to the law, but I too wish you had more time, cause I like what you're saying .



StriperAddict has offered me much guidance in Free Grace Theology. With Free Grace comes Liberty in Christ. 
Lordship preacher David Platt ask "is it really that easy?"
Then he proceeds to add works to salvation by grace.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Art, Im unable to keep up with you again. You sure have a grasp on your scattered mind..Im jealous   You can cover more subjects in a few minutes than I can grasp in days.
> 
> 
> I think we have a different idea on salvation..maybe? Im a if saved always saved person. I believe in being made new by salvation. I believe in saved by grace but I also know the bible put restrictions on entering the kingdom that we cannot deny. I also believe that one must repent to be saved, but I dont think that is a work but a realization.



What is the basic question you are asking me?  Are you saying  Grace comes with stipulations? What are these restrictions that will keep a Christian out of the Kingdom?
Would not these restrictions take away from God's free gift of grace?
My beliefs on grace including repentance are the same as my quote on the beliefs of Primitive Baptist. Either it's free grace or it isn't, there are no restrictions. 
When you add any type of restriction including repentance you have added something controlled by man to the equation. 
Let me ask you this as related to Salvation, Liberty, and Repentance. What did you mean when you said you were "giving it all to the Lord?"


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

Hobbs, you started out stating Christians have Liberty in Christ. You asked how certain denominations add rules back into the requirements for the salvation that Jesus died for. Requirements being rules/commandments/works that we could not keep or sins that we could not stop committing. The whole concept of Christianity.
I showed a few examples of why some denominations added a few stipulations to Free Grace. I mentioned Paul's list of sins that would keep someone from entering the Kingdom of God including Paul's wonderful statement afterwards, "as such were some of you."  Do I understand that you interpret this to mean Christians who continue to sin certain sins will not enter the Kingdom of God? I see Paul's message of one of total forgiveness and you see it as some sort of message that Christians quit sinning as a form of repentance. You seem to be somewhere between Free Grace and stipulations. Is there a limit to God's forgiveness?
 Paul wrote, “Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God” (1 Cor. 6:9–11).

You said Consider this Luke 18

10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

Do you see some of the same sins on both lists? You were doing good by providing me with an excellent message of Grace but somehow I feel you believe there are certain sins that will keep Christians out of God's Kingdom. We have got to be more like the Tax Collector.  Sin is sin and salvation is by grace. Stick with your message and come on over to the Free Grace camp.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

Such were some of you! (Celebrating forgiveness) 

So thankful for the blood of Christ which washes away all sin no matter what size or nature. It's like the waves that wash away all kinds of holes, footprints and sandcastles leaving the beach clean every day. Because His mercies are new every morning we rejoice,there is nothing like a forgiven life, renewed mind, and a fresh start. Paul would say it like this in 1 Corinthians 6emphasis mine) "9 Don’t you know that the unrighteous will not inherit God’s kingdom? Do not be deceived: No sexually immoral people, idolaters, adulterers, or anyone practicing homosexuality, 10 no thieves, greedy people, drunkards, verbally abusive people, or swindlers will inherit God’s kingdom. 11 AND SOME OF YOU USED TO BE LIKE THIS. BUT YOU WERE •WASHED , you were •SANCTIFIED, you were •JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. "With this In mind I am convinced no one is beyond forgiveness, Christ says "yes" to all who are willing to trust in Him #EnterLife and rejoice with me Today, Right now! This very Second! Charles H. Spurgeon would put it like this. Can you not make glad confession, and join with the writer in saying, “My soul recalls her day of deliverance with delight. Laden with guilt and full of fears, I saw my Saviour as my Substitute, and I laid my hand upon him; oh! how timidly at first, but courage grew and confidence was confirmed until I leaned my soul entirely upon him; and now it is my unceasing joy to know that my sins are no longer imputed to me, but laid on him, and like the debts of the wounded traveller, Jesus, like the good Samaritan, has said of all my future sinfulness, ‘Set that to my account.’ ” Blessed discovery! Eternal solace of a grateful heart! “My numerous sins transferr’d to him, Shall never more be found, Lost in his blood’s atoning stream, Where every crime is drown’d!

http://raphaelmnkandhla.blogspot.com/2013/04/such-were-some-of-you-celebrating.html


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## hobbs27 (May 28, 2014)

We differ on the Kingdom. To enter the Kingdom of God doesn't mean heaven, it means to come into / be a part of God's Kingdom that has come. To be saved.

That is what I was talking about all along, and Paul, that is what grace is. A person isn't forever excluded from being saved, but can change from their ways and enter the Kingdom.


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> We differ on the Kingdom. To enter the Kingdom of God doesn't mean heaven, it means to come into / be a part of God's Kingdom that has come. To be saved.
> 
> That is what I was talking about all along, and Paul, that is what grace is. A person isn't forever excluded from being saved, but can change from their ways and enter the Kingdom.



If there is a difference, can one be saved to enter Heaven but not the Kingdom of God? Let's say I continue to slander. Am I allowed salvation from eternal death but I'm not allowed into God's present kingdom?


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## Artfuldodger (May 28, 2014)

You said Consider this Luke 18

10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

This is about who enters God's kingdom or Heaven? Was the Pharisee more righteous than the swindler or adulterer? Will the Pharisee enter the Kingdom and the adulterer & swindler enter heaven?


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## hobbs27 (May 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> You said Consider this Luke 18
> 
> 10 “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
> 
> This is about who enters God's kingdom or Heaven? Was the Pharisee more righteous than the swindler or adulterer? Will the Pharisee enter the Kingdom and the adulterer & swindler enter heaven?



Was this taxpayer not in repentance for whatever he had done? The Pharisee was no more righteous, none of us are. We all repent of our ways, the bible just gives some examples specifically, drunkards, swindlers, homosexuals, etc.   They will not be saved...unless they do as Paul said some of them once were and change.
 To enter the kingdom of heaven here" IMO since I believe ISAS" is to have your place reserved by God in heaven. This parable is about pride, judging,humbling, but most of all repentance. Its also a shadow of what was about to come as the Jew was about to lose its position in Gods eye becase the Jew had lifted themselves above others...metaphorically speaking.


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Was this taxpayer not in repentance for whatever he had done? The Pharisee was no more righteous, none of us are. We all repent of our ways, the bible just gives some examples specifically, drunkards, swindlers, homosexuals, etc.   They will not be saved...unless they do as Paul said some of them once were and change.
> To enter the kingdom of heaven here" IMO since I believe ISAS" is to have your place reserved by God in heaven. This parable is about pride, judging,humbling, but most of all repentance. Its also a shadow of what was about to come as the Jew was about to lose its position in Gods eye becase the Jew had lifted themselves above others...metaphorically speaking.



So your definition of  Repentance is a change from sinning to not sinning? Somehow I thoght that was impossible.
I thought Repentance was changing from a proud person who didn't need Jesus because he could save himself by his works. My Repentance was to accept Jesus and to trust in Jesus as I couldn't quit sinning even if I tried.


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

"AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU" 
1 Corinthians 6:11
by Jim Mattison

      Paul was speaking of sins that will keep people out of the Kingdom of God.  He mentioned some very serious sins, like fornicators, adulterers, homosexuals, thieves, covetous, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers.

     Paul was saying that as long as God sees a person doing these things

He will not allow him to enter His kingdom, which His Son Jesus will establish on earth when He returns.

     He adds to that list in Romans 1: people who do not acknowledge God, are envious, commit murder, are antagonistic, gossipers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, slanderers, disobedient to parents, without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, and unmerciful.

     Then Paul makes it plain to the Christians at Corinth, “Such were some of you.”  Then he adds such a wonderful word of comfort, peace, and hope: “but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God!”

     Notice the great significance of the word “but.”  It means “in spite of this,” or, “opposed to this.”  Here is a contrast.  While we practice these and other sins, we are unworthy of God and His future everlasting Kingdom of love, righteousness, and peace.  BUT when we were washed, sanctified, and justified by our Lord and Savior Jesus, God no longer considers us to be sinners.  Our sins were washed away by our acceptance of Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for our sins.

     This means that when we understand that we are sinners unworthy of eternal life, and repent, and are baptized into Christ for forgiveness of our sins, we are “new” people in God’s eyes and in the eyes of His people.  No longer are those sins held against us.  They have been forgiven.  Praise God!

     Notice again the phrase “and such were some of you.”  We are all sinners until we are washed.  But when we are washed, cleansed, and justified by our Lord Jesus, Paul says we are “new creatures” (2 Cor. 5:17).  Old ways have passed away.  A new way of living is directing our life, a way where we allow God to direct our life by His Word and His Spirit.

     I have a plaque in my study that says, “Let Go and Let God.”  I refer to it often, for we now want GOD to guide and direct our lives.

     So that brings us to this situation in our lives—when my child (adult or otherwise), or some Christian we know, makes a mistake, what must my reaction be?  Our first thought may be horror, disappointment, or condemnation.  How could he or she do this after being taught the ways of God?  Are we to have nothing to do with that person?  Disinherit him?  Offer him or her no support?  

     Our conduct, as we confront this challenge, must be what Christ would do in this circumstance.

     Think of how Christ handled this problem when the Pharisees brought before Him the woman taken in adultery, desiring to stone her to death.  He stooped down and wrote in the sand.  Finally He gave His answer:  “He that is without sin, let him cast the first stone.”  They all departed, from the oldest to the youngest, leaving the sinful woman alone with Jesus.  He said to her, “Go, and sin no more.”  Don’t you know she was amazed at the turn of events?  Jesus came not to destroy, but to lift up, offer forgiveness and salvation.  He told us to “judge not, lest we be judged.”

     We do not know if our child or that other Christian has gone to God and asked for forgiveness.  If he or she has been raised right—to seek God’s face and obey Him—we can hope that he or she has asked God for forgiveness.  What we must not do is condemn them.  Condemnation is God’s job, not ours.  Our work is:  “Restore such a one in the spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted” (Gal. 6:1,2).  Restore means to bring back to a former condition.  How do we restore someone?  By love.  By kindness.  By tenderness.  By mercy.  The verse says “in the spirit of gentleness.”

     A man in our church once sinned a sin.  I came to the place where I didn’t even want to shake his hand. But I thought about that—is this the right way to act?  especially since he continued to try to be a good church member.  So I changed my attitude of criticism and condemnation to one of kindness and gentleness.  I shook his hand, asked how he was doing.

     When our child does wrong, how do we act?  Do we shout, rant and rave, and condemn?   Or do we tell them gently they made a mistake, but we still love them?  Do we hug them in our arms and support them overall?

     Remember the father of the prodigal son.  When the boy was returning home, his father saw him a long way off (he was longing for him to come back), his father “felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him, and kissed him,” while the son was telling him he was no longer worthy of being his son.  But the father loved him, honored him, and made a feast, saying, “This son of mine was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.”  

     This is a good example for us.   Hugging and supporting children is usually better than criticizing them and condemning them.  A word of praise does wonders.  Remember they are still our children even when they become older.  They still need our love and support.  We can continue to show them the right way.

     We must never forget we were once sinners  and we are only accounted worthy now by the blood of our Savior and by having GOD’S Spirit.

http://www.harleypinon.com/and_such_were_some_of_you.htm


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

Such Were Some of You 

Pastor Paul White

1 Corinthians 6:9-11

Paul’s address in the sixth chapter of 1 Corinthians deals with two major issues facing the church in Corinth. First, the believers in that church were suing one another over various matters, going before secular courts to solve problems better solved within the confines of the church. Paul speaks this to their shame (6:5). They were also committing fornication, specifically with harlots that hung out near the temple. Paul reminds them that their bodies are the temple of the Holy Ghost and that they are better than they have been living (6:19, 20).

Sandwiched in between these two admonitions is Paul’s statement about those who will not be going to heaven. He includes fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, effeminate (which is translated “soft” meaning one who is a feminine male), abusers of themselves with mankind (homosexuals), thieves, those full of lust, drunks, extortioners, etc (1 Corinthians 6:9, 10). He does not say that if you commit one of these acts that you are going to - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -; rather he is describing someone who IS one of these persons. This is their lifestyle, and they can be identified by what they do.

Believers fail frequently, in fact, this sixth chapter bears that out, but believers are not known by their failures but rather by their Savior. Paul’s description of those who are going to miss heaven is to show the church at Corinth that when they take one another to court for lawsuits, they are allowing this sort of person to be their judge. Also, when they fornicate, they are living like this group of people lives.

“And such were some of you” is Paul placing the believer beyond this lifestyle. You “were” this way when you were a sinner, so why would you go back to living this way now? “But ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God” (1 Corinthians 6:11). Notice Paul’s insistence in using the phrase, “but ye are” each time? He could have left that out, but he wants to emphasize each area of a believer that has been changed by Christ’s finished work.

Look at the three things that Paul says is different about you now that you are a Christian. You are washed, meaning that you have been placed beneath the waterfall of God’s forgiveness due to what Jesus accomplished at the cross. All of your sins and your sinful ways are gone for His blood has washed them away, freeing you from being identified as those in verses 9 and 10. You are also sanctified, which means that you have been set aside for the use of the Holy Spirit. You are not “being” sanctified every day, for His finished work is a truly finished work! Finally, you are justified, which means that God views you as if you have never even sinned. You are made just because God honors the sacrifice of His Son and sees you as He sees Jesus! (Romans 3:26)

When you fail, please do not view yourself as a sinner. You have been washed, sanctified and justified. The quicker that you come to terms with this news, the quicker that you live free from the shackles of sin and failure.

http://paulwhiteministries.wordpress.com/2011/07/07/such-were-some-of-you-4/


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

Such Were Some Of You

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

(1Cor 6:11 NKJV)

“And such were some of you…” What a wonderful statement. So often we hear this scripture used in telling Christians to not look down on people who are still involved in perpetual sin. While this is great advice, there is a greater truth in this scripture that is much more glorious.

In the preceding verses Apostle Paul lists a great deal of unrighteous lifestyles that will not inherit the Kingdom of God. He says,

9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-11 NKJV)

Stop for a minute and find your former self in the scripture…maybe it’s not your former self you see, maybe you are still struggling with some if the issues listed above. Maybe you don’t see a particular issue you are dealing with listed at all, don’t worry, unrighteousness covers all our former condition.

But the beauty of this scripture is that Paul follows this list with the great declaration that,

11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.(1Cor 6:11 NKJV)

No matter where you fell in that list, if you are in Christ you are not there any longer. You are not the sum of our past mistakes, you are not the sum of your past sins, you are not even the sum of the present issues you are dealing with!! YOU ARE A NEW CREATURE!!! You have been sanctified, justified, and washed clean by the Blood of Jesus.

The problem is that even though we have been made new and set free from our past we still hold on. We are sometimes like freed slaves that won’t leave the plantation.

Let me encourage you today that you are new!!!!

Let me ecourage you today that you are free!!!

No matter what you have done or are currently struggling with, Christ has set you  free…and whom the son sets free is free indeed. Grab hold to your freedom by faith and get past your hangups and sin proclivities!!!!!

Such WERE some of you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://shavonsellers.wordpress.com/2013/03/12/such-were-some-of-you/


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## hobbs27 (May 29, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> So your definition of  Repentance is a change from sinning to not sinning? Somehow I thoght that was impossible.
> I thought Repentance was changing from a proud person who didn't need Jesus because he could save himself by his works. My Repentance was to accept Jesus and to trust in Jesus as I couldn't quit sinning even if I tried.



My definition of repentance is a change made caused by the Holy Spirit breaking man's heart over his own actions to a point that to do that thing again would so disgust the person that the temptation would never even enter the person's mind.


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## StriperAddict (May 29, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> My definition of repentance is a change made caused by the Holy Spirit breaking man's heart over his own actions to a point that to do that thing again would so disgust the person that the temptation would never even enter the person's mind.


 
Indeed.  An awareness of that is a gift of the kingdom. 

Consider that just maybe, the Holy Spirit is after showing the believer just what, er, rather, where and from whom his righteousness is found and based upon ... the body and the blood, so that 'conviction' looks more like loving dicipline than that which makes one under condemnation (law).

If you know your enemy uses the 'law of sin and death' in the members of your body,
then when those thoughts come..
and you are given the gift of awareness (repentance, a changed mind over the dark that is a knocking)
... then you, as a holy saint and child of the King can take authority over that in the victory already won for you.


On this subject, I've also been thinking of this scripture a lot lately:
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
<SUP class=versenum>3 </SUP>For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war <SUP class=crossreference value='(A)'></SUP>according to the flesh, 
<SUP class=versenum>4 </SUP>for the <SUP class=crossreference value='(B)'></SUP>weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but <SUP class=footnote value='[a]'></SUP>divinely powerful <SUP class=crossreference value='(C)'></SUP>for the destruction of fortresses. 
<SUP class=versenum>5 </SUP>_We are_ destroying speculations and every <SUP class=crossreference value='(D)'></SUP>lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and _we are_ taking every thought captive to the <SUP class=crossreference value='(E)'></SUP>obedience of Christ

my emphasis added.

Disclaimer:
Can we boast of our own ability to "do" the work - renewing of our minds, "destroying speculations", etc.??

No, this comes from heartful, careful abiding... by faith, not of the works of the law, so that the heart's changes we see come to bring us true joy and _LIBERTY_ in our Lord Jesus!

Example: ever have that "one" burden/sin/bondage just fall by the wayside?  You'd likely be a soul who is much content in drawing close to the bosom of the one who bore that same burden on the cross...
It was His grace that made you aware that 'thing' was gone... !!

We have much to be thankful for...  one burden at a time. 
Amen?


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

More on this great change;

Mark 1:4 and Luke 3:3 tells us that John the Baptist preached the baptism of repentance. In other words, John preached there must be an immersion into a new way of thinking to obtain the remission of sins. When John began to preach and baptize at the Jordan river, he was dealing with Jews who trusted in the law of Moses (works of righteousness) to obtain salvation and eternal life. He confronted their beliefs and told them that they must believe in him who was to come after him in order to be saved.

Notice in Mark 1:5 that ALL who were baptized of John in the Jordan confessed their sins. This is a very profound statement. Most of Christianity interprets this verse to say that after they were baptized they began reciting all the sins they ever committed. Instead, let's look at what this verse really says. The word "confessed" is the Greek word exomologeo, which means: to profess or acknowledge openly. The Greek word translated as "sins" is hamartia, which means: (literally) to miss the mark; sin as the causative factor for acts of disobedience, the sin nature, or sin (singular or plural). The majority of the times in which this word is used, it's context has to do with sin as the fallen state of human nature or sin as the causative factor of disobedience.

Therefore, grasp this concept: those who were baptized by John  weren't reciting an endless liturgy of their sins. These Jews had been taught all their lives that they were saved by keeping the law of Moses. As John shared with them, they were immersed into a new way of thinking. They now realized the law of works could not save them and they acknowledged that their sin still remained. They began to look for that person John said would come after him because they understood they could not be saved by THEIR works of righteousness. This is the revelation that repentance brings to us. 

http://biblestudies.davidstabernacle.net/what_is_repentance.html


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## Artfuldodger (May 29, 2014)

Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast". If we could stand before God and boast of OUR good deeds, we would have no need of Jesus Christ for we could save our self. Instead, repentance brings us to the understanding that ALL our efforts to win the favor of God are without merit.

Isaiah 64:6 gives us a very clear picture of how God views our works of righteousness. It says, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away". Let's break this verse down some and obtain a clearer picture of what is said. 

Again we see in the word of God that we need to repent of our old natural way of thinking and turn to the Lord because our works cannot save us. Even though we can see our need to repent, we don't have the ability to accomplish it on our own, for repentance is a work of the Holy Ghost. In the preceding scripture, the Greek word for "renewing" is anakainosis, meaning: to make new; the adjustment of the moral and spiritual vision and thinking to the mind of God, which is designed to have a transforming effect upon your life.

Contained in the definition of "renewing" is a description of the work of repentance. It brings our selfish way of thinking into alignment with the thinking process of God. Who accomplishes this work in us? The Holy Ghost. Even though repentance is decision based, the basis of our decision is caused by the Holy Ghost who convinces us of our sin, our lack of righteousness, and of God's judgment (Jn.16:8-11, 1Cor.12:3). Hebrews 11:3 tells us "that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost".

True repentance produces a change in our way of thinking that causes us to stop depending on self. The less one relies upon self, the more one will rely upon God, and, consequently, the more change (for the better) will occur in one's life. Your ability to live the word of God, outwardly and in your most private thoughts, is dependent on the degree of repentance that you partake of.

True repentance produces the ability to honestly assess the state of our heart because we stop measuring our thoughts and intents based on our own standards and begin to measure with the word of God. This brings us into true relationship with God for he uses his word as the measuring rod of our heart (Heb.4:12-13). 

http://biblestudies.davidstabernacle.net/what_is_repentance.html


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## Israel (May 29, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> Indeed.  An awareness of that is a gift of the kingdom.
> 
> Consider that just maybe, the Holy Spirit is after showing the believer just what, er, rather, where and from whom his righteousness is found and based upon ... the body and the blood, so that 'conviction' looks more like loving dicipline than that which makes one under condemnation (law).
> 
> ...


well said...
these things we "discover" in (real) time, as we seek the Lord to know him...and find what has been done for us, in and through him.
It truly is all a gift...waiting to be found.


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

I have a little bit of confusion concerning Christian's Liberty and Paul's letter to the Corinthians:
1 Corinthians 5:11
But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.13 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?14 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, "You must remove the evil person from among you."

I'm wondering if these individuals who cliam to be Christians are or aren't. Verse 10 makes it appear they are as they are inside the Church and aren't worldly. You can never get away from worldly evil.
1 Corinthians 5:10
not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world.

Now my confusion lies in what happened to their Liberty? My next question is, how do we decide who to shun or disfellowship? What sins are worse than my sins that would allow me to make such a judgement? How can I cast the first stone at my brother? I would feel like I'm taking away their Liberty and salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

I've come up with a way to disfellowship church members based on a "sinning" number. O is perfect with no sins and 10 being a heavy sinner. I would place myself around a 5. I know Christians who sin less than me and a lot more who sin more than me. If I was on the "shunning" committee the shunning cut-off point would be a 7 or possibly an 8.

This is meant to be a joke as something that just popped in my head but it has made me think on how a Christian would do this.
Mainly because we all sin and our sins have been forgiven. I still have the confusion.
I could easily shun the fornicator or drunkard but might not know about the brother that has lust or anger in his heart. I might need a lie detector for the committiee.


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## StriperAddict (May 30, 2014)

My wife forwarded to me song lyrics that I think suit the discussion. She also took the _subject_ and made it for a guy, not gal, to encourage me .

I'm not much of a contemporary music jockey, I haven't heard it yet, but will pick this up on YouTube on my phone soon...

===
U R More

There's a _guy_ in the corner
With tears in his eyes
From the places he's wandered
And the shame he can't hide

He says, "How did I get here?
I'm not who I once was.
And I'm crippled by the fear
That I've fallen too far to love"

But don't you know who you are, 
What's been done for you?
Yeah don't you know who you are?

You are more than the choices that you've made, 
You are more than the sum of your past mistakes, 
You are more than the problems you create, 

You've been remade. 

Well he tries to believe it
That he's been given new life
But he can't shake the feeling
That it's not true tonight

He knows all the answers
And he's rehearsed all the lines
And so he'll try to do better
But then he's too weak to try

But don't you know who you are?

You are more than the choices that you've made, 
You are more than the sum of your past mistakes, 
You are more than the problems you create, 

You've been remade. 

You are more than the choices that you've made, 
You are more than the sum of your past mistakes, 
You are more than the problems you create, 
You've been remade. 

'Cause this is not about what you've done, 
But what's been done for you.
This is not about where you've been, 
But where your brokenness brings you to

This is not about what you feel, 
But what He felt to forgive you, 
And what He felt to make you loved. 
You are more than the choices that you've made,

You are more than the sum of your past mistakes,
You are more than the problems you create,

You've been remade. 
You are more than the choices that you've made,
You are more than the sum of your past mistakes,
You are more than the problems you create,

You've been remade.
You've been remade
You've been remade. 

You've been remade.


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

I agree we are a new creature having been "washed" of sins. I find comfort when Paul said "and such were some of you."
Even Hobbs states a list of sins that will keep one out of the Kingdom and he started the thread on "Liberty." Yet he wonders why individuals place the yoke back on their selves with denominational laws. I've placed and removed this yoke many times. Just about the time I'm gonna leave it off I'm given a list of sins that will supposedly keep me out of the Kingdom or I'm given a command to shun sinners in the Church. My Liberty disappears briefly. I have to remind myself that Grace is free and it really is that easy.


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## formula1 (May 30, 2014)

StriperAddict said:


> My wife forwarded to me song lyrics that I think suit the discussion. She also took the _subject_ and made it for a guy, not gal, to encourage me .
> 
> I'm not much of a contemporary music jockey, I haven't heard it yet, but will pick this up on YouTube on my phone soon...




A band called Tenth Avenue North.  I have seen them in concert a time or two and one of those times I actually sat with their family.  Great folks!


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## hobbs27 (May 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I agree we are a new creature having been "washed" of sins. I find comfort when Paul said "and such were some of you."
> Even Hobbs states a list of sins that will keep one out of the Kingdom and he started the thread on "Liberty." Yet he wonders why individuals place the yoke back on their selves with denominational laws. I've placed and removed this yoke many times. Just about the time I'm gonna leave it off I'm given a list of sins that will supposedly keep me out of the Kingdom or I'm given a command to shun sinners in the Church. My Liberty disappears briefly. I have to remind myself that Grace is free and it really is that easy.



There is no list of sins anymore& going back to what Paul said, drunkards, swindlers, Homosexuals, etc, etc. Will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. I think these things are what define those people vs Christians. It's not a simple act but a non repentant lifestyle. If they repented of their ways they would no longer be swindlers, drunkards, or Homosexuals. They would be Christians.

 Christ will not dwell in those temples according to the bible, but Once He does dwell within us, we don't need a list of right and wrong, we just do as He would do, and the Holy Spirit directs our life when we are obedient....Christ freed us from the law


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## barryl (May 30, 2014)

A.D. You referenced Eph. 2:8-10 KJV AV a few posts back. It is about "rightly dividing the word of truth" If The Lord Jesus Christ has taken our sin away(CALVARY) and His righteousness has been imputed to you and me,(Liberty- "Free" Gift of Salvation) we are no longer guilty. About the kingdoms, two things that are similar are not the same. Kingdom of Heaven- Matt. 3:2 KJV AV (Physical) Kingdom of God- Romans 14:17 KJV AV


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> There is no list of sins anymore& going back to what Paul said, drunkards, swindlers, Homosexuals, etc, etc. Will not enter the Kingdom of heaven. I think these things are what define those people vs Christians. It's not a simple act but a non repentant lifestyle. If they repented of their ways they would no longer be swindlers, drunkards, or Homosexuals. They would be Christians.
> 
> Christ will not dwell in those temples according to the bible, but Once He does dwell within us, we don't need a list of right and wrong, we just do as He would do, and the Holy Spirit directs our life when we are obedient....Christ freed us from the law



Would you say Grace is free as long as the person repents and bears fruit? In other words there are a few stipulations that come with free grace?
How many drinks or swindles can a OSAS Christian perform before he was never saved to begin with?

I've recently switched from a Lordship Salvation believer to a Free Grace believer so you know what they say about a knew Convert being overbearing.


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

barryl said:


> A.D. You referenced Eph. 2:8-10 KJV AV a few posts back. It is about "rightly dividing the word of truth" If The Lord Jesus Christ has taken our sin away(CALVARY) and His righteousness has been imputed to you and me,(Liberty- "Free" Gift of Salvation) we are no longer guilty. About the kingdoms, two things that are similar are not the same. Kingdom of Heaven- Matt. 3:2 KJV AV (Physical) Kingdom of God- Romans 14:17 KJV AV



Hey I'm a Free Grace convert so welcome me to the flock.
Will there be Christians that make it into Heaven like the converted drunkards and swindlers that won't make it into the Kingdom of God? I do understand the Christian drunkards and swindlers are no longer guilty.


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## Artfuldodger (May 30, 2014)

This is an interesting article of a guy like me that has gone back and forth between Lordship salvation and Free Grace salvation. He finally decided after 8 years of research and prayer to go with Lordship Salvation. Regardless of one's beliefs reading of both can only help enforce or choose the correct path. Please consider that this author is a believer in Lordship Salvation. I'm not but learned a few things from reading it. 

Response to the "Free Grace" Movement by Phillip L. Simpson 

The purpose of this paper is to provide a critical evaluation of what has been termed (by its proponents) the "Free Grace" movement. I should begin by stating at the outset that this is a paper I did not want to write. It is borne out of much sorrow and heaviness of heart. For twenty years, ever since I had become a Christian, I had attended a particular church. When John MacArthur wrote, "The Gospel According to Jesus" in 1988, a line was drawn in the sand regarding the doctrine that came to be known as the "lordship salvation" doctrine (a regrettable term, coined by its critics, but one which is now necessary to identify the doctrine). My church chose to side with the critics of "lordship salvation", with such stalwarts as Zane Hodges, Charles Ryrie, and many from Dallas Theological Seminary leading the way.


 Personally, I was torn. On the one hand I had heroes such as Dr. MacArthur and R.C. Sproul defending the lordship position; on the other hand, other heroes, such as my pastor and Dr. Ryrie, were teaching against it. 


I launched into a study, reading books and articles by men from both sides, including MacArthur, Sproul, Michael Horton, J. I. Packer, Ryrie, Michael Cocoris, Charles Bing, Earl Radmacher, and Zane Hodges. I did this to make sure I understood fully both positions. Since I felt both sides had convincing arguments, I began to study the Scriptures for myself regarding this matter. My study took nearly eight years. A breakthrough came when I decided to jot down all the relevant Scripture texts which speak to the debate. As I did this, I compiled a list of over 100 Scripture texts. Looking over the list, I realized that what I largely had was a list of verses which seemed to support the lordship viewpoint, which would need to be "explained away" by its critics (or reinterpreted so as to contradict the plain meaning of these texts-- over 100 of them!). It is from this list of Scripture texts that this article was formed.


 At this point, I realized that if I am going to need someone else to explain to me the meaning of the most of the New Testament, and that the plain meaning is so little to be trusted, I would have to rely on the no-lordship proponents to serve as "priests" to tell me how to understand the Bible -- it may as well have been written in Latin. For me, the hermeneutic rule known as "Cooper’s Rule" speaks well to this issue: "If the plain sense makes good sense, seek no other sense". I came to the conclusion that the lordship people are probably closer to the truth on this issue (though there are some, admittedly, who teach an extreme position on this doctrine, emphasizing submission over grace and confusing sanctification with justification).


 Though hard to describe this doctrine in a nutshell, here goes: Lordship salvation proponents teach that, when one receives Christ, he receives Him as both Savior and Lord. "That if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). "Whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Romans 10:13). In other words, implicit in the salvation process is an understanding, however rudimentary, that Christ is Lord and has the right to call the shots. 


I say that this is implicit in the salvation process for this reason: Anyone who is saved is saved from something, and that something is sin. The "free grace" teachers love the Reformation teaching of "faith alone" (although they teach a distorted understanding of it). Yet what does it mean to believe? To believe that Jesus historically existed? Yes, but more must be affirmed: I must, in the process of conversion, understand that I need to be saved. That is, I must understand my lostness; I must agree with God that I am a sinner deserving - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH -, and that my sin is wrong. If I attempt to be saved, but deny that my sin is wrong, I have no need to be saved from anything. But if I agree with God that my sin is wrong, I understand that, logically, the converse must be true: what He has said about what my life should be like must be right. Even if I don’t conform to that immediately (which we don’t), I still have acknowledged that He is the Lord.


 This may sound strange to modern ears, because modern evangelistic methods have ingrained the idea into our thinking that we can accept Christ as Savior now, and later "make Him Lord" by some decision (or not, if we so opt); but nowhere do the Scriptures teach this. As A.W. Tozer has said, "we do not teach a divided Christ!" We receive a whole person when we receive Him, not just a part of Him. He is Lord; we do not make Him Lord.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/freegrace.html


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## hobbs27 (May 30, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say Grace is free as long as the person repents and bears fruit?


 No, I would say it is free and the person has repented of something and will bear fruit.




Artfuldodger said:


> How many drinks or swindles can a OSAS Christian perform before he was never saved to begin with?


  Umm, Thats a question for mr. owl isnt it? Seriously I believe saved folks know, and lost folks know, its a relationship thing, either you have it and know it or you don't, and we arent capable of judging others, but we are capable of spreading the gospel and learning scripture.



Artfuldodger said:


> I've recently switched from a Lordship Salvation believer to a Free Grace believer so you know what they say about a knew Convert being overbearing.


 I believe where you stand with God is the most personal thing there is and ................................


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## StriperAddict (May 31, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Even Hobbs states a list of sins that will keep one out of the Kingdom and he started the thread on "Liberty."


 
I'm sorry brother, but that's one big lie, if you really believe that.

It wasn't our ACTS/DEEDS of unrighteousness that get one 'booted' out of heaven,
We are doomed from heaven right out of the gate because we were BORN with a sinful NATURE (identity)..

Our acts of sin as a non-believer are as natural to us as our new man doing acts of righteousness are --- 
because we consider THAT Adamic nature DEAD and BURIED at the cross, 
_but before the cross_, we did the desires of our 'father' ... the devil!

I'm gonna take flak on all this, as much of the church still believes we posess both the sinful _and_ regenerate natures,
but nothing could be further from the truth.

That sin that still shouts at you - comes from the members of your unredeemed BODY, 
Your body is NOT your identity, or nature!

So because a believer still from time to time looses the awareness of that finished work, the mercy and love, he/she still clings to the lowly sinner saved by grace mentality!

Your new man, redeemed spirit, the righteousness of God in Christ,
is your real identity!

Many don't see this because believers still believe that *what they do defines who they are*,
but God clearly shows us that _who we are _is defined by birthright!

As in Adam all die,
so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Do your diligence to see this CLEARLY in Rom ch 6.
Paul states clearly that we HAD (past tense) an Adamic, sinful spirit, or nature,
but it was killed, put to death, erradicated,
by the body of our Lord!

You have died...
as in your dead Adamic nature... 
a past action from the cross, 
and its a completed action...
the erradication of the "old man" 

... and your life is HID with Christ in God
... the resulting "state of being", or NATURE ...
a holy child of God.

Rom 6:
<SUP class=versenum>6 </SUP>knowing this, that our <SUP class=crossreference value='(L)'></SUP>old <SUP class=footnote value='[c]'></SUP>self was <SUP class=crossreference value='(M)'></SUP>crucified with _Him_, (our Lord's body crucified meant that our old self, or Adamic nature was put to DEATH)
in order that our <SUP class=crossreference value='(N)'></SUP>body of sin might be <SUP class=footnote value='[d]'></SUP>done away with (made inneffective or powerless), 
so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 
<SUP class=versenum>7 </SUP>for <SUP class=crossreference value='(O)'></SUP>_he who has died is <SUP class=footnote value='[e]'></SUP>freed from sin_.

How can you fight spiritual battles if your "house" (the real you as God sees you) is _divided against itself  _??

Get it?


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## StriperAddict (May 31, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Christ will not dwell in those temples according to the bible, but Once He does dwell within us, we don't need a list of right and wrong, we just do as He would do, and the Holy Spirit directs our life when we are obedient....Christ freed us from the law


 
Amen... !
God, open our eyes!


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## StriperAddict (May 31, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> As A.W. Tozer has said, "we do not teach a divided Christ!" We receive a whole person when we receive Him, not just a part of Him. He is Lord; we do not make Him Lord.


Yes! 
And from the work of that same un-divided Jesus, _we are complete_ ... in Him, 
our new spirit man alive to serve...
 by His strength, _not_ ours


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