# Testimony of a Jew who got Saved



## Tn_Extreme (Aug 1, 2006)

I have had a very interesting life, with some unique experiences. I was born and raised in a middle-class, Jewish home. Though not very religious, we went to the temple for most of the holidays, and kept many of the Jewish traditions. I was BarMitzvah'd at age 13, after years of Hebrew school and religious training. My religious training consisted of bouncing superballs, trading comic books, and flipping baseball cards. We read Bible stories in books about Jewish people, but I never owned nor even saw an Old Testament. I saw the Tenach, (torah), first 5 books of Old Testament and we had prayer books as well. My religious books were a joke. They made Bible stories sound as believable as AESOPs' fables, very liberal teaching.

I was a teen; I had no need for religion I figured anyway. I supposed if there was a God, and a life hereafter I would go to the good place cause I was a good guy. If not, I figured my body would make good fertilizer when I died. The only time in my whole life unto adulthood, I heard the name of Christ as a curse word. I also was called a Christ killer in elementary school. I had no idea who Christ really was, only that I didn't kill him. I knew Catholics and some people from other religions. But, I was taught if you were not a Jew, you were a Christian. I knew Christians hated and persecuted Jews all throughout their history. So all my friends were people who kept their religious beliefs to themselves. I just grew up doing my thing, being a bit of a troublemaker in school. I thought I was kind of slick, managing to get away with all my antics. I was a smart mouthed, trouble making punk.

The only time anybody ever tried to tell me about Jesus was my junior year in high school. He was a Catholic that told me he had been born again, and was now a Baptist. I mocked him and wanted nothing to do with some crazy religious fanatic.

I wanted to be rich, to have new cars, travel, etc. My God was money. I couldn't wait to graduate and find a good paying job. I figured if I had money, I'd surely be happy. I found a good job and spent money like it was going out of style. I ran up debts like my job and bank account would last forever. Unfortunately work became slow and I was laid off.

I had a scam going with a buddy. We went into stores and changed price tags on items to real cheap prices, purchased them and sold them as at a profit. I thought it was just getting a bargain, not stealing; the store could afford it. One day my buddy said it was wrong, it was stealing. He said since he is a Christian, it must stop. I was livid. He was messing up my money making scheme.

That started a very intense period in my life. I started challenging him on what he believed and why he believed it. He had few answers. This angered me even more, that he'd give up our scam for nothing. Although I'd never admit it to him, I felt empty inside. I had chucked Judaism and tried worshiping things but they didn't satisfy. About this time he started going to college so I figured I'd check out college too. Why not? Maybe the answers I was seeking could be found in knowledge.

I took some courses in Philosophy, Psychology and World Religions. I was interested in what was going on out there. I was surprised to see that there were some differences in religions. I had thought they all believed the same thing. I checked out some Korean religion where they prayed to this thing on the wall called a gonyo. But nobody could even tell me what they were saying except it was supposed to make you rich and all that good stuff. I also checked into some other religions like Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons, but they didn't seem right to me. I was on a quest for "truth" and would leave no stone unturned on my quest, except Christianity. I knew Jews don't become Christians.

My conversations/arguments with my friend increased about Christianity. This searching process continued over a couple year period. I decided one day to see what was in this Bible that I had heard about. There was a Christian bookstore at a local mall, and I decided to go in and buy this Bible. I remember being very cautious, as I went into the bookstore to be sure nobody I knew was around. I'd hate to been seen in that place, I was shocked that there were so many Bibles. This search sure wasn't getting any easier. The manager helped me pick out a Bible and I went out in the mall to start reading it. I had many questions and few answers. I figured I could debunk this Christian stuff and move on to the next step. I decided I'd start at the beginning of the New Testament, with Matthew. I challenged God before starting. And said, "If you are who you say you are, then show me why the Jews don't believe in Jesus." A challenge I assumed He couldn't answer. When I read Matthew 28:11-15, I was shocked. God answered my question and I knew all those years I had been lied to. I then told God I believed in him, and Jesus.

I honestly didn't know what I believed in but knew truth had just smacked me in the face, and woke me up. My next concern was what do I do next?

My buddy was going to a Catholic Church and so I wound up there. My first mass felt very strange. I knelt on the floor the whole time. I had no idea they had kneelers. This was the first time I had been in any church in my lifetime. I was baptized, confirmed and had first communion after going to some religious classes. I really got into novenas, prayers to saints and Mary, and every other ritual I could find. I had no idea what I was doing but the church said it was the thing to do so I listened.

Catholicism was very much like Judaism, with a little of Jesus thrown in with many rituals, prayers and much tradition. I assumed all churches were the same anyway. During this time, while going to school at Cleveland State, I became involved in the Newman Center. It is an on campus group of Catholics. They were people my age that I could talk to and they even had guitar mass, which I really enjoyed

In retrospect, like my ancestors after being set free, I returned to slavery. I was trying to earn my salvation, hoping I was good enough to get to heaven. I read my Bible less and less. I had no concept of grace. Ignorance is not bliss. Religion is the opiate of the masses.

I began to have discussions with other students and the Priests, and had more questions than answers. I was confused, things just didn't seem to agree with the Bible, at times. I saw the hypocrisy in the priests and others and especially myself. One day I walked down the street to downtown Cleveland and met a man that would change my life.

It is amazing how God can change a person. It is also amazing how He puts people in our lives at just the right time, coincidence, nope Godincidence! If I had met this man before I would have mocked him or at best ignored him. Yes, me, Mr. Cool, became a fool, a fool for Christ (1 Cor. 1:18-25). This middle-aged black man was standing outside May Co. on Public Square in downtown Cleveland, preaching and singing with his guitar. I had never met anybody so bold in my life, so I stopped to talk to him. His name was Orris Price and he ran a Downtown Bible club. I thank God for this man because I don't know what would have happened to me, if I hadn't met him. This shows the importance and impact one person can have on another. The other thing I'll never forget is that God can use anybody, if they are willing. If God used a donkey to talk to Balaam, He can use me. (Numbers 22:23-25.)

Mr. Price took me under his wings and mentored me. I felt like a fish out of water at first; I had never heard all these hymns before. I had many questions - Why this? Why that? Is the Catholic Church teaching me the truth? The Lord equipped him with wisdom. He'd say, "Read your bible, what does it say?" He forced me into the word. He challenged me, "don't just tell what you believe, tell me why you believe it." He taught me to street preach wearing a sandwich board on the streets, with Isaiah 53:5 on one side and another scepter on the other side. I began to visit many of the Black Baptist Churches in the area wearing my Jesus made me kosher (kasrite), clean fit for service.

Through the years as I grew in the Lord many doors have opened, many dealing with teens, which is my heart's burden. I was never told as a teen about Jesus and have dedicated my life to giving teens at least the opportunity to hear the gospel. I have worked for inter-varsity, campus life and was even youth pastor for a few years at a Baptist church. Through the years the Lord has continued to work in my life, and has taught me very much. I have had the privilege to be blessed by many great friends on and off-line. I have traveled all over the USA, seeing this awesome country. I am under construction, and unsure what is in store for me next. I have no bible degree, but attend the school of hard knocks. I am a Graduate in heaven. I have completed some series from Moody Bible correspondence school. And would enjoy taking more classes when able to. My life is an open book, if anybody has any questions, ask me and I will answer. I am available to speak to any group anytime and anyplace that the Lord leads.

In my years as a Christian, after not growing up in the church, I have a few observations. I am saddened by many who have never read the Old Testament. If you want to understand the Church you need to understand Israel, and if you want to understand the New Testament you need to understand the Old Testament. Also, the Church has lost its Jewish roots, I was shocked to find out that Jesus and the disciples were Jewish.  If the church has any intention of reaching the Jews it needs to understand Jewish holidays and basic Judaism. My life verses are 1 Cor 9:19-23. If we want to win someone to Christ we need to understand them, walk a mile in their shoes. We need not be so quick to judge each other. We need to be known for our love. It has been said that the Christian army is the only army that shoots its wounded.

Also the lack of money spent on reaching the youth is shameful - they are our most precious resource, There is a great battle going on for the minds of our kids and we are not winning. I call myself a completed Jew because, Jesus made me whole before Christ; I knew part of the story but when I accepted Jesus into my life He completed me. I read the New Testament and read as they say 'the rest of this story."

Shalom, Jeff


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## Tn_Extreme (Aug 1, 2006)

And another



I was brought up Jewish, went to Shabbat quite faithfully each Friday and Hebrew school twice a week and was Bar Mitzvahed and confirmed. While attending classes I asked a lot of questions the Rabbi could not answer. I became less interested in the traditional religion of my parents and feeling hindered in my spiritual development, leaped head first in to my own brand of freestyle spirituality after graduation.

I got involved in the New Age Movement, became a vegetarian and for 15 years practiced yoga and meditation. I ended up using psychedelic drugs (LSD, mescaline etc.), as part of my regular religious observances and smoked "pakalolo" as part of my normal lifestyle. During these times I also experimented with various religions and the occult. I felt they each contained some part of the truth of the one "true" religion, just as Rosicrucianism teaches all religions are petals on the same flower.

I studied about the Ancient Masters of the East, learning about Buddhism and Zen and believed in the Ascended Masters. I was involved with UFO’s and channeled messages. I had a number of spiritual experiences which at the time I thought were from God. I was sure I was on the right spiritual path. At the same time I also read the Bible, not denying my Jewish roots. I was starting to read over 50 books a year, having an insatiable spiritual appetite, but God was working on my exit out of this spiritual bondage.

I had also started to surf before beginning my spiritual pilgrimage. I fell in love with the sport and began traveling, surfing and entering contests. Surfing became my livelihood after I learned to shape surfboards for a living. I was the eastern surfing champion for two years and Hawaii proved to be an irresistible attraction due to its fantastic surf. I moved permanently to Hawaii in the mid 70's. This gave me more freedom to pursue both my first love of surfing and my freelance spirituality. After nine years my searching came to a head when I and my girlfriend Kathy started to pursue our spiritual hunger more seriously and became involved in the "I Am Movement" (the Saint Germaine Society of the Ballards). We thought we were becoming enlightened. reading books about the Ascended Masters and "learning" about Earth’s past history on Lemuria and Atlantis. Through calling on angels and powers unknown to us and by "decreeing" and using the Violet Consuming Flame to eradicate past life karma, we desired to become servants of the New Age movement. At the time Kathy was practicing affirmations, mantras, studying herbology, polarity therapy, kinesiology and learning about the supposed spiritual energies of the body. She also was a manager of a health store on the Island.

The Lord started moving ahead with our rescue plan and during one week I had two friends over who had recently became Christians. We talked about end-time events for hours. (At this time we both thought Christians were very narrow minded about their view of the Bible, God and the world. Kathy and I used to laugh about how the New Age was coming in without Christians even being aware of it and were still trying to live in the old traditions and were not going to be part of it). Later that week my friends invited us to a seminar that was going to be about the New Age Movement with speakers Dave Hunt, Johanna Michaelson and Hal Lindsey. Talk about timing! It was also during that same week that I heard an audible voice that said "I am the Lord your God, you shall not want." I recognized this was from Psalm 23 and had never experienced anything like it. Inside I knew this was the God I was searching for but still did not know. 

I attended the Christian conference on Bible prophecy and the New Age Movement that week while Kathy stayed home doing her New Age affirmations. She wasn't feeling well and unknowingly had really been going through a spiritual battle all that week. At the conference I was shocked to hear the other side of the story. The information I heard seemed incredible. The speakers knew all about the occult techniques Kathy and I were following and about the New Age Movement’s master plans. I spoke to Dave Hunt briefly during a break and had a number of important questions answered. I was also challenged by Dave on the occult practices in which I was personally practicing. When the conference resumed Johanna spoke and I was relating to a lot she had experienced, especially in regards to the Ascended Master "Jesus". Then she spoke about another Jesus – the true Jesus of the Bible - which came as a total shock. When she prayed it pierced my heart. I knew I had heard the truth but the question was, what would I do about it?

All the way home I wrestled with the wasted time I had spent believing and doing the wrong things for the past 15 years. (At this time they both thought Christians were very narrow minded about their view of the Bible, God and the world. They used to laugh about how the New age is coming in and Christians weren't even aware of it. And were still trying to live in the old traditions and were not going to be part of it.)

Kathy was waiting up for me when I got home. It was late and she was scared that I would come home a Christian! But a peace came in the house and on her, as I shared about how the Christians viewed the last days and how it wasn't anything like what we were being taught. It was then that the Holy Spirit revealed to Kathy that not only were we following the wrong Jesus, but that we were worshiping Satan, and that he is a literal being. Then the fear of God fell upon us and for the first time we got down on our knees and prayed to the true living God to forgive us for the occult beliefs we had been deceived into practicing. The Lord got the last laugh.

The next morning we both went to church and for the first time heard the gospel and dedicated our lives to the Lord, repenting and asking Christ to forgive us. Thank the Lord He intervened. We were saved together in the year 1986. After going to church and receiving Christ, it was later that week I found out that it was on the 20th anniversary of my confirmation day when God spoke that previous week. The last thing I read to the congregation in the temple 20 years before had been Proverbs 4:1 "Hear my children, the instruction of a Father, and give attention to know understanding, for I have given you good doctrine forsake not my law." Unfortunately I did forsake it for 20 years, but God brought me and my soon-to-be wife back. Five weeks after our spiritual birth Kathy and I were married and today have a nine year old son.

Immediately, I began to study the Bible and learn apologetics in order to give answers to those who ask why we believe in Christ and why Jesus is God in the flesh. For over 13 years I have continued teaching on the cults and aberrant world views including how the cults deny grace and opt for works to be accepted by God. These include the Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism, and also the occult (New Age world view) which is now very present inside the Church. 

By the grace of God I have had the privilege to have taught at Youth With A Mission, Hope Chapels, Calvary Chapels, Church of Christ, United Methodist Church, Grace Brethren, Assembly of God and various other Hawaii congregations. I have also had the opportunity to share in small group studies around the Island and have also been involved in a number of debates. The Lord has currently provided us with the opportunity to host a TV program and a live call-in broadcast called "Let Us Reason" on a local Christian station as well as to be featured on several other live radio broadcasts in Hawaii. I am also a missionary for Witness Inc., the world’s largest counter cult ministry reaching out to Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Let Us Reason Ministries was founded in 1994 as an up-to-date apologetic resource center to instill both confidence and a desire to lead others to Christ by helping equip believers with both Biblical, and logical answers for the Christian faith. It’s my hope that this ministry will be able to prompt believers to personally meet and evangelize those in cults and false religions as well as discern false doctrine within the Church.

Mike Oppenheimer, Let Us Reason Ministries,  LetUsReason.org


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 2, 2006)

That's a shame.....   I'd be willing to bet though that the percentage of folks who leave Christianity for Judaism (converts or not) is much greater than the percentage of Jews who convert to Christianity.... seems the ones who convert to Christianity are more usually the ones who don't know their Jewish beliefs very well!

Tell ya what... I'll see your backsliders and raise you a conversion!    

By Bruce James 
I wrote the following article which was published in the Baltimore Jewish Times on April 10, 1981. It has been excerpted in the book "Becoming Jewish" by Rabbi Maurice Lamm.

"You're a convert? Gee. That's interesting. If you don't mind my asking, why did you do it?" 

I suppose every convert to Judaism is asked the question and I've gotten used to it, but there is another comment I often hear that is disturbing: 

"You're a convert? There must have been a girl." 

Oy! 

A lot of people just can't believe that there is something in the Jewish religion worth having. Something that someone from the accepted, middle-class WASP world would want. So when a Jewish person makes this comment, I have to realize my patience and explain why I converted and how much value there is in being Jewish. 

I doubt that my parents will ever understand why I converted. All they see now is a yarmulka on the head of a son who's not the same person they watched grow up. 

But I am the same person. Yes, I keep my head covered, pray three times a day, put on tefillin, keep a kosher home and stomach, keep Shabbos strictly, and observe other laws that, in my parents' eyes, link me with the most fanatic and backward cult in the world. When I come home, it's not as if their son came home, rather it's as if they received a visit from someone from another planet. 

Still, it is doubtful that I could have become an Orthodox Jew without important training I received at home. 

My parents gave me a firm belief in G-d, a dedication to honesty and consistency, and a love for all people. Without these values I would have been lost in an agnostic world full of contradictions and ethical conflicts. 

I was 16 when I decided to become a Jew. But even at 14 or 15 I was very religious, active in my church and giving thought to someday becoming a minister as had my great-great-grandfather. I was developing ideas that were different from standard Christian doctrine: not knowing any alternative, though, I decided to use them in a Christian context. 

But all that changed one Friday night. My church confirmation class made a field trip to the synagogue in my hometown, Colorado Springs, Colorado. After the service, the rabbi stayed on and answered our questions. 

One student asked if the color of the rabbi's skullcap meant anything. No, he said. He has one to match his blue suit and others to match different articles of clothing. Another person asked him why they had somebody else (a cantor) sing the service. "Because he has a better voice than I have," he answered quickly with a grin. 

But I was cocky, and still believing that Jesus was Messiah, I baited the rabbi: 

"Has the Messiah come yet?" I asked. 

"No," he said. "Look at all the suffering in the world." 

"When will he come?" 

"Certainly not until we get better for him." 

"Then why should he come?" 

"Exactly." 

I was stunned. Obviously, his answers to my questions were brief and over-simplified. But he hit me with one of my own theories that had no source in Christian doctrine: man plays a key role in the salvation of the world. The world is not doomed to destruction, and man may be, ultimately, perfectible. 

I continued my studies of the New Testament. I was disturbed that the enlightenment of Jesus was fizzled by the narrow-minded doctrine of the Apostle Paul. Yet, when I finished my confirmation training, I was at the top of my class. On a test of Bible knowledge, the average score was 20 to 40 points. I scored an 88, double the next highest. 

Then my minister asked everyone in my class to write a statement of faith. This would be used when the church elders considered our application for membership in the Presbyterian Church. 

I prepared my paper with the same glee that Martin Luther must have had when he wrote his attack on the Catholic Church. First I attacked the way the Jewish ideas of Jesus had been cast away by Paul and other Church leaders and substituted with customs and values from pagan religions -- often without benefit of any symbolic tie-in -- all to make Christianity more marketable. 

Then I attacked the dualism of Christianity. The devil got the blame for everything, I wrote with tongue in cheek, but where would Christianity be without the devil? What would motivate people to do good if not for the threat of eternal ****ation? 

One of the elders eventually read my piece. He told me that I had some interesting ideas. And he recommended me for membership. I couldn't believe it. Didn't the Church have any standards? I should have refused membership at that point. But at the time, I felt I really had no choice but to accept. 

One day I just stopped going to church. But that didn't send me to the synagogue. I didn't know anything about Judaism. But I did know that I didn't like the way Christianity had developed. In my mind, what had begun as a Jewish cult, in a short time, became a religion that preached love and fought wars.

One day, just by accident, I started reading Chaim Potok's "My Name is Asher Lev." Although some people call the book anti-Jewish, I became captivated with the idea that Jews have laws and live by them. That little bit of inspiration sent me back through history to learn at what point Christianity had abandoned Jewish values, what Jewish values it had abandoned, and why Jews have persisted in maintaining these values for 2,000 years. Before long, I was telling people -- actually promising people -- that I would become a Jew. 

People ask me when I first knew I had to be Jewish. I don't remember any one particular event. I have a feeling that there was a voice talking to me every night as I slept telling me that I was destined to become a Jew. The more I heard it, the more convinced I became. 

I really do believe that I was meant to be a Jew.

There is a Chassidic thought that all righteous converts were at Mount Sinai with every other Jew, born and unborn. The difference is converts were born of the "wrong" parents. [I later found out that my great, great, great, great great grandfather was Gov. David Emanuel, who served as Georgia's governor in 1801, and who had converted to Christianity from Judaism.] 

I studied for four years before I found the courage to go to a rabbi and ask to be converted. He put me on a long and rigorous study plan after he was convinced of my sincerity. All along I found that my own ideas I had developed before talking with any Jews were in fact Jewish. Sometimes word-for-word. I've met other observant converts with similar experiences. 

Many people convert through Conservative or Reform rabbis. But I became Orthodox because I felt that I had to go all the way in order to be consistent and honest with myself. 

The basic question I had to ask myself is what makes a Jew? We learn that the Jews are the chosen people. But it is not just that G-d chose the Jews, but more importantly that the Jews chose G-d. 

We chose not only to believe in His existence and kingship over the world, but we also chose to accept His commandments. In any conversion, Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox, the male convert must undergo circumcision. 

If he had been circumcised as a baby, then even a ritual bris milah must be performed by drawing a drop of blood. Why should anyone want to go through such an ordeal just to say he's Jewish and to go to temple on Friday nights? Circumcision is performed on converts because this is one of the commandments that G-d gave to Abraham. Notice I said commandment. Not suggestion. 

We were given more than the 10 commandments. G-d gave us 613 commandments at Mount Sinai. He commanded strict observance of the Sabbath. He commanded us to keep kosher homes, not because kosher food is better for you (would G-d command us to do something that isn't healthy?), but because He wanted us to be holy and separate from the pagan world. For us it should be enough that He commanded it.

My parents taught me to be consistent. It wouldn't be right for me to look at all of America's laws and decide to keep every law except those laws concerned with stealing. Life might be easier if I could take things that don't belong to me, but people can't just choose to observe those laws that are most convenient to them. 

In the same sense, I don't feel right going through the Torah and then deciding only to keep certain commandments and not to accept the others because I think they are outdated or inconvenient. 

Being honest with yourself and consistent to your principles is never cheap. I had to give up my dream of being a newspaper reporter because American newspapers don't hire people who can't cover a breaking story whenever it happens. And I've had to risk breaking up the good relationship I've had with my parents. Although there is great tension, fortunately I am still on speaking terms with them. 

The conflict with my parents came to a head one night when they visited me. My mother was crying as she asked me if the Bible said I was supposed to honor them. "You've rejected your religion. You've given up your career. I suppose next you'll reject your country [and leave for Israel]. When are you going to reject us?" 

It's hard to deal with such arguments. They come from an emotional level it's best for me to stay away from. The Torah says that even if your parents do not observe G-d's commandments or even curse G-d, you are never to show disrespect to them. So I listened to them as they vented their frustrations and kept quiet most of the night. I did explain to them that I can't break G-d's commandments. [Over time the relationship warmed. I gave the eulogy on behalf of my brothers and mother at my father’s funeral in 1999.] 

The rabbi I studied with made very sure that I understood this and that I also understood that in many ways my mother and father would cease to be my parents.  When they die, for example, I cannot observe the laws of mourning for them, no matter how beneficial it might be for me. And, he said, I would never be as close to them as I once was. He was right. 

But I still love them. I love a lot of people who perhaps look at me as a freak today. Maybe I'm not always tolerant of people around me. 

For example, I would prefer that more Jews convert to Judaism. But my father and mother taught me how to love all kinds of people; to give freely of myself and of my possessions. In a way, they gave me my first lessons in the laws of tzedakah, charity. Because of it, I'm a better Jew. 

I couldn't wait to become a Jew. But the conversion process is long and frustrating. Some people never get beyond the first stage. I know one rabbi who weeds out the less sincere by first teaching them the laws of family purity -- those laws which restrict the times when a husband and wife can sleep together. He told me he likes to "hit them below the belt" to see if they are really sincere. 

Many Jews have come to me and said that I know so much more than the average Jew. I don't see that as a point of pride; in fact, I find it very sad. When I was studying with my rabbi, I was sure that I knew enough to be converted. But my rabbi waited. I think his goal was to convert me when he was sure I knew enough but when I realized that I need to learn a lot more Torah. 

Finally, I went to the mikvah to be immersed in its warm waters and complete my conversion, and I felt elation and joy I've never felt before. Many people will never understand why. But all at once I had the very positive feeling of completing one difficult assignment successfully, and having another challenging assignment before me. The boss liked my work, and now He was giving me a new challenge He knew I could handle. 

POSTSCRIPT: My studies of Judaism did not end with my conversion in June 1980. I continued my studies, as all Jews should. In 1997, I undertook the daily discipline of studying Talmud in the international Daf Yomi program -- a process where the student learns one folio page a day until the entire Talmud is completed -- some 7 1/2 years later. I completed the entire Talmud, along with thousands of others around the world, on March 1, 2005, and then started all over again. For the 20th anniversary of my conversion, I thought I would challenge myself by teaching an entire folio page to my Daf Yomi group, and then host a party for the completion of that tractate. I wrote to Art Scroll -- the publishers of the best translation of the Talmud -- and asked to see a draft of their translation of the last page of Kesubos to assist me. The response I got startled me. They had not started, but they suggested that I try translating that page for publication "to make my simcha [celebration] more special." At first I declined, and then regretted that I hadn't obtained the skills over 20 years. A couple of days later I agreed to undertake the project and completed it three months later. My name appears in the editorial credits for Volume III of the Art Scroll translation of Kesubos. 

http://judaism.about.com/od/conversiontojudaism/a/baruch.htm


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## SBG (Aug 2, 2006)

Good posts Tn...thanks for sharing.


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## Double Barrel BB (Aug 2, 2006)

Thanks for the great post TN!!!

DB BB


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## Hawkeye (Aug 2, 2006)

THis is very common testimony in My Ministry, I was also borned into a Jewish home, But I accepted the Jewish Messiah in 1957 and have walked both sides of the fence.

It is not necessary nor required that a jew become a so called "Christian".
This is a misunderstanding of the things Paul wrote to the gentiles, a Jew is a Jew wether he Believes in the Christ is Yeshua .
It was required of the gentiles to convert to the God of Israel who manifested himself in the flesh as Yeshua(Jesus) and to keep only the Noachide laws, since the laws of Moses were never given to gentiles to begin with.

Yet all the apostles who were Jewish remained keeping the Torah and the Holidays, including Paul who told Gentiles not to.

So there is a difference between Jews and Christians as to how to believe and what to keep and that is where gentiles who try to preach to jews loose it.
You cannot ask a jew to leave his traditions and teachings and become as a gentile, nor does the New Testament says gentiles should become Jews.

The Jews still have an opened and unfulfill covenant with God, and God said that covenant is eternal, plus He would also send a new covenant so Christian Jews are under both covenants , while gentiles are only under teh new ovenant of Grace and faith in the Jewish Messiah.

Shalom


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## ilikembig (Aug 2, 2006)

Awesome reading - thank you for the walk


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## SBG (Aug 2, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> The Jews still have an opened and unfulfill covenant with God, and God said that covenant is eternal, plus He would also send a new covenant so Christian Jews are under both covenants , while gentiles are only under teh new ovenant of Grace and faith in the Jewish Messiah.
> 
> Shalom



Thank God for His grace!

For Christian and Messianic Jew as well.


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## Spotlite (Aug 3, 2006)

Deleted, I thought my response was misleading and off topic.


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## 270win (Aug 3, 2006)

Actually, we're seeing many Jews accept the Messiah today.  I was shocked to find that the majority of Jews in Israel are agnostic...  I don't know why, I guess I just thought that most Jews would believe in God...

Thanks for sharing those testimonies Tn.

Be Blessed,
270


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## Hawkeye (Aug 3, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> The book of Acts explained that pretty well, the Jews saw that the Gentiles recieved the Holy Ghost just as they did and it all comes down to one body of Christ  Jesus said this was for all to recieve, not just a certain group or orginization, correct?



That is Correct anyone who believes in Yeshua(jesus) God gives them the power to become sons of God, to those that believe in his name.
Jesus did not come to create denominations but to save the world.


Shalom


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## Hawkeye (Aug 3, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Actually, we're seeing many Jews accept the Messiah today.  I was shocked to find that the majority of Jews in Israel are agnostic...  I don't know why, I guess I just thought that most Jews would believe in God...
> 
> Thanks for sharing those testimonies Tn.
> 
> ...



It is worse than that, most Jews running the goverment are atheists, who came to Israel from atheists from the USSR.

It is from them that the spiritual Jew will surface to create a Godly Israel, but meanwhile wars will be in the menu.
Until they seek God's face.

We have had thousands of Jews in Israel come to the knowledge of their messiah through out ministry, Jew On Jew.
Because most evangelical churches required the Jew to convert to a form of pagan christendom, most jews will refuse this altered gospel been preached today by gentile churches.

Shalom


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## 270win (Aug 4, 2006)

Would you say that Jews are receiving Christ in greater numbers recently?  



			
				Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Because most evangelical churches required the Jew to convert to a form of pagan christendom, most jews will refuse this altered gospel been preached today by gentile churches.
> 
> Shalom



Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

Be blessed,
270


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 4, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Forgive my ignorance, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean.
> 
> Be blessed,
> 270




He's saying that if you want to steal Jewish souls by getting them to convert to Christianity, you have to make Jesus a little more Jewish.

For example, instead of having church on Sunday, have it on Saturday, which is the Jewish Sabbath. But don't call it 'church', call it 'shul' and 'synagogue'.   Don't refer to Jesus as "Jesus", call him "Yeshua".    Don't call your minister a "pastor", make him "Rabbi".   Call your bible the "Tanakh", and the New Testament the "Brit Chadasha".  Refer to the Creator as "Hashem".  Have lessons that teach how to speak and read Hebrew.  During services, pray in Hebrew and have a Torah scroll to read from (in Hebrew). Become familiar with and read other Jewish scriptures such as the Talmud, the Ghemara, etc.  Give your children Bat-mitzvahs and Bar-mitzvas. Observe the Jewish holidays, like Hanukkah, Passover, etc.  Teach Jewish customs.   Wear Jewish garments such as Tzitzit, Kipah/Yarmulkah, etc.   Basically, act like you're Jewish.  Christianity today has too many pagan overtones to be appealing to Jews.


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## Madsnooker (Aug 4, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> He's saying that if you want to steal Jewish souls by getting them to convert to Christianity, you have to make Jesus a little more Jewish.
> 
> For example, instead of having church on Sunday, have it on Saturday, which is the Jewish Sabbath. But don't call it 'church', call it 'shul' and 'synagogue'.   Don't refer to Jesus as "Jesus", call him "Yeshua".    Don't call your minister a "pastor", make him "Rabbi".   Call your bible the "Tanakh", and the New Testament the "Brit Chadasha".  Refer to the Creator as "Hashem".  Have lessons that teach how to speak and read Hebrew.  During services, pray in Hebrew and have a Torah scroll to read from (in Hebrew). Become familiar with and read other Jewish scriptures such as the Talmud, the Ghemara, etc.  Give your children Bat-mitzvahs and Bar-mitzvas. Observe the Jewish holidays, like Hanukkah, Passover, etc.  Teach Jewish customs.   Wear Jewish garments such as Tzitzit, Kipah/Yarmulkah, etc.   Basically, act like you're Jewish.  Christianity today has too many pagan overtones to be appealing to Jews.



That's your opinion,  It has nothing to do with Christianity "today". The bottom line is Christianity is not appealing to Jews becuase they don't believe Jesus is who Christians say he is based on what the Bible says.


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## 270win (Aug 4, 2006)

"steal Jewish souls"?
From where?  

I see the biggest obstacle to overcome in converting to Christianity for Jews is that it means admitting that they murdered their long awaited Messiah.  

That and the fact that those members of their families that died without Christ are now suffering for rejecting the Messiah.

That would be the most difficult thing for me to overcome.

Be blessed,
270


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## Hawkeye (Aug 4, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> "steal Jewish souls"?
> From where?
> 
> I see the biggest obstacle to overcome in converting to Christianity for Jews is that it means admitting that they murdered their long awaited Messiah.
> ...






That is a total misconception on your part, 'll try and make it simple for you, so you can understand what you just said is ridiculous.

I'll start with a question; To whom did God give the oracles of salvation ?

Answer :to the Jews. and in those oracles was the prescription of blood atonement for sins.
So who had the responsibility to sacrifice a blood atonement for the sins ?
Answer :the Jews.

So why are you blaming the Jews for doing what God taught them and they practice for milleniums to do, which was the ultimate human sacrifice for the sins of not only the Jews but the whole world ?

Jesus said no one kills me, I give myself voluntarily.
I'll tell you this much, that statement you made is the very reason why Jews do not believe in the Jesus that evangelicals preach, it stated with the Roman Catholics who did everything possible to remove the Jewish roots of Christianity into the paganal ways of the church today.

Another question would be; where would you be today as a gentile if the Jews had not sacrificed Jesus ? have you thought about that ?

For I tell you he came to "but the house of Israel" , so he said.
Let us say for a moment the Jews had accepted him as Messiah and king, Millions of angels would have come to earth and destroy the Roman system and all the other races around the world as wicked and pagan people.

Where would you be today ?     

Read Roman Chapter 11 a couple of times and then get back to me with questions, Thank you
Shalom


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## 270win (Aug 4, 2006)

If my post offended you, that was not my intent.  This is just the testimony of several practicing Jews that became Messianic Jews.  This is based on their testimony, not my opinion...

That is a total misconception on your part If it's wrong then it's the incorrect testimony of Messianic Jews that I know personally.

So why are you blaming the Jews for doing what God taught them and they practice for milleniums to do, which was the ultimate human sacrifice for the sins of not only the Jews but the whole world ?Who killed Jesus?  Yes, without that sacrifice we would be lost.  But they had no idea that He was the Messiah.  It's not like they recognized Him and decided they just had to do this to fulfill the prophecies...

Jesus said no one kills me, I give myself voluntarily.
I'll tell you this much, that statement you made is the very reason why Jews do not believe in the Jesus that evangelicals preach, Again, these are just observations based on the testimony of my Jewish friends.it stated with the Roman Catholics who did everything possible to remove the Jewish roots of Christianity into the paganal ways of the church today.I agree, Christianity does observe holidays and festivals that have no scriptural basis.  Christianity has also neglected many of the rituals and holidays that Jesus Himself observed...  I never said that Christians have it all figured out.

Another question would be; where would you be today as a gentile if the Jews had not sacrificed Jesus ? have you thought about that ?I'd be lost, but again, they had no idea what they were doing, they were looking for a totally different Messiah.  One that fit their criteria rather than the one revealed through scripture.

For I tell you he came to "but the house of Israel" , so he said.
Let us say for a moment the Jews had accepted him as Messiah and king, Millions of angels would have come to earth and destroy the Roman system and all the other races around the world as wicked and pagan people.

Where would you be today ?  Lost... what's your point?  Your "what if" didn't happen.  

Read Roman Chapter 11 a couple of times and then get back to me with questions, 

I really don't have any questions for you on Romans 11.  But I do have some observations....

Israel has not been forever set aside by God. 

(1) The salvation of Paul proves that there is still a remnant (Romans 11:1) 

(2) The doctrine of the remnant proves it (Romans 11:2-6). 

(3) The present unbelief was foretold (Romans 11:7-10). 

(4) Israel's unbelief is the Gentile opportunity (Romans 11:11-25). 

(5) Israel is broken off from the good olive tree, Christ (Romans 11:17-22). 

(6) They can be grafted in again (Romans 11:23,24). 

(7) The promised Messiah will come out of Zion and the nation will be saved (Romans 11:25-29).  

That the Christian now _inherits_ the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture. (I'm not sure if you're saying that or not.) 

A Christian is of the seed of Abraham- 
Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. 

Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise. 

We are receivers of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant.

Again, if my post offended you that was not my intention.

Be blessed,
270


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 5, 2006)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> That's your opinion,  It has nothing to do with Christianity "today". The bottom line is Christianity is not appealing to Jews becuase they don't believe Jesus is who Christians say he is based on what the Bible says.




Well, you can say that, but you will notice that the "Messianic Jew" on here did not disagree with what I posted 

If you don't believe me, that's fine... but you can easily do a Google search on "messianic churches" and see what comes up.  There are entire websites devoted to teaching Christians how to make their church more 'Jewish" so that it will be appealing to Jews, and how to draw them in.  They are trained to look Jewish, act Jewish, and target Jewish people, so that when the Jewish put their guard down and get to know them, the missionary can then go in for the kill


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 5, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> "steal Jewish souls"?
> From where?




From God.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 5, 2006)

If my post offended you, that was not my intent. This is just the testimony of several practicing Jews that became Messianic Jews. This is based on their testimony, not my opinion...
Am not Offended at all, am just giving you bible knowledge and historical knowledge ,that Jews have carried that accusation for millenials, it seves no purpose to accuse the jews, forgive me but Iam a messianic Jew and  gew up as a Jew in a Jewish community, there are very few Jews that will claim that we killed the messiah

That is a total misconception on your part If it's wrong then it's the incorrect testimony of Messianic Jews that I know personally.
It Must BeSo why are you blaming the Jews for doing what God taught them and they practice for milleniums to do, which was the ultimate human sacrifice for the sins of not only the Jews but the whole world ?Who killed Jesus? Yes, without that sacrifice we would be lost. But they had no idea that He was the Messiah. It's not like they recognized Him and decided they just had to do this to fulfill the prophecies...

Of Course not ,how can they recognise him , when God Blinded them, this is the reason I told you to read romans 11, paul explains the blinding of Israel and the purpose was to Save the gentiles, the jews were blinded to his gospel and for that God will resurrect all of Israel and give them life during the kingdom, read Ezequiel Chapter 37 and compare to Romans 11 where Paul says all of Israel will be saved, because of God's covenant with Israel, God will apply Yeshua's Blood to pardon their sins to accomplish his promised to Israel that he would erased all of Israel's iniquities, this the great mercy of God, who remembered the gentiles that never had God and the Jews who had him but did not appreciate Him they both receive mercy.


Jesus said no one kills me, I give myself voluntarily.
I'll tell you this much, that statement you made is the very reason why Jews do not believe in the Jesus that evangelicals preach, Again, these are just observations based on the testimony of my Jewish friends. 
I understand that , but listen to God's word not what people sayanyways Jesus inteceeded for them from the cross he said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do" If you believe as I do that Jesus interceeds for you and me everyday before the Father, then you will understand his first intercession for sins was on the cross for those who tortured and killed him ,Romans and Jews 
it started with the Roman Catholics who did everything possible to remove the Jewish roots of Christianity into the paganal ways of the church today.I agree, Christianity does observe holidays and festivals that have no scriptural basis. Christianity has also neglected many of the rituals and holidays that Jesus Himself observed... I never said that Christians have it all figured out.
It is also the introduction of such pagan teachings as the trinity that turns off Jews right away, the Shema Israel that moses taught teaches our god is one GodIt also teaches God is the only savior and that there would be no other gods before him or after him, so there isn't three distinct persons or gods,but only one god doing 3 roles or Jobs, this is called a triunity and not a trinity, which is an eastern culture pagan teaching.Another question would be; where would you be today as a gentile if the Jews had not sacrificed Jesus ? have you thought about that ?I'd be lost, but again, they had no idea what they were doing, they were looking for a totally different Messiah. One that fit their criteria rather than the one revealed through scripture.
Again read romans 11 and you will see that God  himself blinded them in order to save you
For I tell you he came to "but the house of Israel" , so he said.
Let us say for a moment the Jews had accepted him as Messiah and king, Millions of angels would have come to earth and destroy the Roman system and all the other races around the world as wicked and pagan people.

Where would you be today ? Lost... what's your point? Your "what if" didn't happen. 
No because God had a mistery plan to save the gentiles, but if the Jews had no follow what God compelled them to do, there would not have been any other race left on planet earth and you would never have had the opportunity to live eternally with God

Read Roman Chapter 11 a couple of times and then get back to me with questions, 

I really don't have any questions for you on Romans 11. But I do have some observations....

Israel has not been forever set aside by God.
Don't know where you got that from ?? 
Israel was chosen before the foundation of the World, whom he foreknew he also saved, in many passages it says he foreknew Israel(1) The salvation of Paul proves that there is still a remnant (Romans 11:1)
Yes , even today there are many Jews who believe in the God of Israel, who are the remanent that came out of the holocoust who founded the nation of Israel , consequently there are many Jews who are agnostic and many that are atheists or what we call secular, those are the ones unning our country, until the believers take over the Israeli Goverment, we will be persecuted by all of God's enemies.

The Messianic movement is growing by leaps and bounds, our Nazarene messianic association counts over 100 thousand members in Israel and USA.in 1983 we were 500 in total. 
(2) The doctrine of the remnant proves it (Romans 11:2-6). 

(3) The present unbelief was foretold (Romans 11:7-10). 
Yes but vaguely
(4) Israel's unbelief is the Gentile opportunity (Romans 11:11-25). It is the gentiles way to reach God, that is God's mercy
(5) Israel is broken off from the good olive tree, Christ (Romans 11:17-22). Yes it was , but it says for the gentile not to boast on what happened to them, because God can graft them back at any time
(6) They can be grafted in again (Romans 11:23,24). 

(7) The promised Messiah will come out of Zion and the nation will be saved (Romans 11:25-29). It says all of Israel, and Ezequiel 37 the whole house of Israel will resurrect
That the Christian now inherits the distinctive Jewish promises is not taught in Scripture. (I'm not sure if you're saying that or not.) 
Christians only inherit salvation and eternal life, Jews Inherit the land and the Kingdom for 1000 years after that eternal life to those who remain faithfull.





A Christian is of the seed of Abraham- 
Genesis 15:5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness. 
Christian are the spiritual seed of faith of abraham, the physical seed are the Israelis, by making them both one people , Abrahams seeds will be as many as the stars in the heavens


Galatians 3:29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's descendants, heirs according to promise.

Yes heirs of life eternal, I don't think he meant heirs of the land, because if you are transformed into a heavenly body , what do you need land for, when you will be living in the New Jerusalem whih is heavenly
We are receivers of the spiritual blessings of the Abrahamic Covenant.
Yes spiritual blessings
Again, if my post offended you that was not my intention.

It did not offend me bro at all be at peace, you have a pretty good idea of things, but lacked some fine tunning concerning Israel future and present spiritual situation, perhaps this will serve to make you a better witness to jews.

LOL ShalomBe blessed,Alec
270


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 5, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> perhaps this will serve to make you a better witness to jews.



Would you be willing to share your testimony on here on how you came to be a Jew who decided to believe in Jesus? 

I am always amazed when I hear of a Jew who was raised Jewish and then later accepted Christianity. I honestly can't see how anyone who was raised Jewish would ever accept the teachings of Christianity. However, maybe that's because the Christianity I grew up in is the pagan one you're talking about


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## 270win (Aug 5, 2006)

Dixie Dawg-
".... but you will notice that the "Messianic Jew" on here did not disagree with what I posted" 

Dixie, just because he didn't respond doesn't mean that he didn't disagree.  ... Or agree for that matter.  

"from God"

By leading them to their Messiah?  How would leading them to accept their Messiah be stealing them from God?  Of course I know your answer will be that Jesus is not their Messiah.... Round and round we go.... 

Hawkeye-
I think we see more eye to eye here than more I originally thought.  Some minor points of clairification.

Of Course not ,how can they recognise him , when God Blinded them, this is the reason I told you to read romans 11, paul explains the blinding of Israel and the purpose was to Save the gentiles, the jews were blinded to his gospel and for that God will resurrect all of Israel and give them life during the kingdom, read Ezequiel Chapter 37 and compare to Romans 11 where Paul says all of Israel will be saved, because of God's covenant with Israel, God will apply Yeshua's Blood to pardon their sins to accomplish his promised to Israel that he would erased all of Israel's iniquities, this the great mercy of God, who remembered the gentiles that never had God and the Jews who had him but did not appreciate Him they both receive mercy.I agree that if God had not blinded them that the gentiles would be in a world of trouble.  So are you saying that the Jews are automatically going to receive eternal life whether they receive Christ or not?

If you believe as I do that Jesus interceeds for you and me everyday before the Father, then you will understand his first intercession for sins was on the cross for those who tortured and killed him ,Romans and Jews 

I do believe that Jesus intercedes for us constantly.  I had never really noticed that as being His first intercession for the Jews and the Gentiles... Good point.

Israel has not been forever set aside by God.
Don't know where you got that from ?? Many people believe that the Jews have been forsaken by God and that He has given up on them completely.  Obviously Romans chapter 11 refutes that completely.

Israel was chosen before the foundation of the World, whom he foreknew he also saved, in many passages it says he foreknew IsraelI agree.

I gotta run but I do want to ask you some questions.

Last Sunday Rabbi Scott Sekulow came to our church to speak about Jesus in the passover.... It was an awesome lesson and I learned a great deal from him.  My wife and I have said for years that we as Christians have allowed many rituals and celebrations into our beliefs that are not founded in scripture.  

Good luck with Dixie Dawg-  She's a handful!!! LOL! 

Be blessed,
270


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## Hawkeye (Aug 5, 2006)

I agree that if God had not blinded them that the gentiles would be in a world of trouble. So are you saying that the Jews are automatically going to receive eternal life whether they receive Christ or not?

It is not that I say so, it is the word, that says so, Paul says in romans 11 what should be the reward that Israel receives for being blinded ? But the resurrection from the dead, Ezequiel 37 says the whole House Of ISRAEL will resurrect, when the pharasee asked Jesus about the resurrection, he didn't rebuked him and said ,you will not be in the resurrection or you are not saved, He said You ignore about the resurrection, for you will be as the angels of heaven....
PAul explains that Israel still has an open and live covenant with all of Israel and says God promised he would take all of Israel's sins by the messiah, we as Jews practiced a Universal atonement for sin, everytime the High Priest Killed the Lamb on Passover, the blood of that lamb which represented the Messiah, was applied to every Jew anywhere in the world, whether he belive in it or not.
Like wise Christ's atonement is for the whole world, plus the israelites still have God's covenant, that is why in the New Testament there are two gospels, the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the uncircumcision, the gospel of the uncircumcision is from Paul to the Gentiles, the gospel of the circumcision is From Jesus to the Jews.So salvation for General Israel might not be the same as for those who believe in christ by faith
This will take many weeks of discussion to understand, what salvation is to Jews and gentiles

If you believe as I do that Jesus interceeds for you and me everyday before the Father, then you will understand his first intercession for sins was on the cross for those who tortured and killed him ,Romans and Jews 

I do believe that Jesus intercedes for us constantly. I had never really noticed that as being His first intercession for the Jews and the Gentiles... Good point.

Most Christians miss that point, if we believe that Jesus' intercession saves us, why not those that he interceeded for firstHe also saved the thief who said remember me when you come in your kingdom , The thief was then saved inmidiatley, no waiting , no going to church, no speaking in tongues, no baptism, you see God is sovereign, he will save whom he will save. It is the evangelical church that puts limits on God as to whom he will save by applying the blood of Christ, He doesn't save those that we think should be saved but those whom he wants to fellowship forever with.
Anyone who asks for forgiveness in a true heart and beliefs can be saved.Israel has not been forever set aside by God.
Don't know where you got that from ?? Many people believe that the Jews have been forsaken by God and that He has given up on them completely. Obviously Romans chapter 11 refutes that completely.

The Re- establishment of Israel as a nation from a remanent of survivors from the holocoust, proves that replacement theology is false as Romans 11 estates, this will be the israel that sees the son of man come in the clouds, you and I might even see him very soon, I can understand why theologians believe that because of the 2000 year gap of Israel without a land, that cause christians to think Israel was no more , so the church was Israel then.

Israel was chosen before the foundation of the World, whom he foreknew he also saved, in many passages it says he foreknew IsraelI agree.

I gotta run but I do want to ask you some questions.

Last Sunday Rabbi Scott Sekulow came to our church to speak about Jesus in the passover.... It was an awesome lesson and I learned a great deal from him. My wife and I have said for years that we as Christians have allowed many rituals and celebrations into our beliefs that are not founded in scripture. 

Yes, I also did when I accepted the Gentile Christ, until i started to realise the Jewishness of the messiah and the life styles of the apostles was 100% Jewish.
I then discovered Yeshua Ha Masshiach the true Messiah

Not A blonde blue eye Jesus, but a 100% Israelite of the tribe of Judah the same as My family and the same ancestor the "Perez" Clan found in Genesis Chapter 38. That filled my heart with such inmotions That I have not lost in so many years;Good luck with Dixie Dawg- She's a handful!!! LOL! 
I really haven't seen anything she says that is wrong, i think she does have a certain light about the words that others might not have.Be blessed,
270


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## 270win (Aug 5, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> It is not that I say so,I wasn't taking your word, I was affirming that the word of God says that. it is the word, that says so, Paul says in romans 11 what should be the reward that Israel receives for being blinded ? But the resurrection from the dead, Ezequiel 37 says the whole House Of ISRAEL will resurrect,
> 
> Are you referring to Ezekiel 37:11? "Then He said to me, "Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel; behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried up and our hope has perished. We are completely cut  off."?
> 
> ...


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## Hawkeye (Aug 5, 2006)

Let's look at what God has said about his promises to that strange people the jews. We wonder what God has in mind as we read the newspapers and see still centered in the headlines of the world this strange nation. And what is more remarkable, we know that many Jews are unbelievers in their own Scriptures. It's a very astonishing thing that they still exist as a nation after all the centuries of dispersion and wanderings. Many are asking the question, "Where do the Jews fit into the program of God?"

I want to begin by going back to the very center of our own Christian faith, the one ritual that all Christians agree is central -- the supper of the Lord. Periodically we gather together to celebrate the Lord's supper, to do together what he told us to do on that unforgettable night when he was betrayed. Let me refer to Matthew's familiar account (Matthew 25:26-29):

...Jesus took bread, and blessed, and broke it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body." And then he took the cup and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sin. But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I will drink it new with you in my father's kingdom." {cf, Matthew 26:25b-29}

Notice carefully the words that Jesus uses to introduce this event as he passes the cup among these disciples. He says, "this is my blood of the New Covenant." Now that's a clear reference back to the words of Jeremiah found in the 31st chapter of his prophecy. Jeremiah says, beginning in Verse 31 of Chapter 31, these words:

"The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt [i.e., the covenant of the Law, the Ten Commandments], because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord.

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." {Jeremiah 31:31-34 NIV}

Now that was what was taking place on the night our Lord was betrayed. He was making a New Covenant with the house of Israel; every one of those disciples that were there were faithful Jews. (Judas had all ready left the apostolic band to go to do his dirty work of betrayal.) The eleven disciples that were remaining were Israelites from various groups and various parts of the land of Israel. They were representatives of the house of Israel and the house of Judah.

Our Lord borrows here the very words which Moses had used when he announced the covenant of the Law when he came down from Mount Sinai. You remember Moses sprinkled the people with blood from animals and said, "Behold the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words," (Exodus 24:8 {RSV}). It is not a mere accident that when Jesus, too, says, "this is my blood of the New Covenant which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Return to Jeremiah 31, the prophet goes on to say these words (Verse 35):

This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar -- the Lord Almighty is his name: "Only if these decrees vanish from my sight," declares the Lord, "will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me." This is what the Lord says: "Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done," declares the Lord. {Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV}
Do these ordinances still exist today? Is the sun still shining in the sky? Do the moon and the stars still appear at night? Isn't it remarkable that with all the achievements of science, and with all the explorations of space, the sending out of these space travelers out to explore the planetary system and even beyond, yet we still have not learned how to measure the universe in which we live. The prophet says, "Only if heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath..." We have done neither of those. We have found theories, but no one has been able to explore in this area. Therefore, God says,

"If heaven can be measured, and the and foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done," says the Lord. {cf, Jeremiah 31:37 KJV}

Now, that's a most remarkable promise. God has bound himself, by the faithfulness of his Being and of his Word, that Israel shall have a place in his program as long as the heavens and the earth remain. God will never cast them off as long as the sun and the moon maintain themselves in their courses and as long as long as the scope of the heavens remains to be measured and the interior of the earth remains unexplored.

Well, if that is the case, if this is the covenant which Jesus made with Israel, as the Lord's supper clearly indicates, we must ask ourselves the question: "Why is it that Israel lies in spiritual shambles today, while Gentile Christians, with whom this covenant was never made, are now enjoying the fulfillment of the New Covenant?"

Many people wonder about this in regard to the Jews, and a number of explanations have been suggested. Most of you know that over in the 8th chapter of Hebrews, the writer quotes verbatim, word for word, this promise of God in Jeremiah 31. He makes clear that New Covenant, referred to there, applies to the church. The New Covenant was a covenant made with Israel, but it is being fulfilled today by believers from all the nations. The writer of Hebrews repeats the fact that that covenant was made with the house of Israel and Judah (that is, the whole literal nation of the Jews ) but he applies three essential elements of this covenant to us today.

It is very helpful for us to understand that these terms and conditions of the New Covenant are faithfully carried out whenever anybody turns to Christ. Listen to the provisions of the New Covenant again, as the prophet Jeremiah had announced, but which are quoted in Hebrews 8:10:

"I will put my law into their minds, and write them on their hearts." {Heb 8:10b NIV}
Here is the first provision of the New Covenant: There will be a new awareness rising within us so that we know inwardly how to tell right from wrong.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 5, 2006)

Part 2

Here is the first provision of the New Covenant: There will be a new awareness rising within us so that we know inwardly how to tell right from wrong.

I want you to think back to when you first came to Christ: You will discover that there came into your knowledge, your existence, your experience, a different feeling about right and wrong. Before you became a Christian, right and wrong were spelled out to you in terms of what you had been taught as you were growing up. Whether these standards were related to the Ten commandments or not, there was something external to yourself that constituted a set of standards imposed upon you from without. But, when you became a Christian, you suddenly became more sensitive in this area. That's the New Covenant being fulfilled in our lives. The second element of the New Covenant is that God has said,

"I will be their God, and they will be my people. No onger will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." {Heb 8:10c-11 NIV}

Once again, if you think back to your first days as a believer in Jesus, you became aware that you had become a member of a new family and that God occupied a different relationship in your life. He was no longer a stern judge, condemning you every time you turned around, but he was now a loving Father. A new word came to your lips -- you began to call him Father. You sensed a new intimacy with God.

I'll never forget when I first became a Christian, I was only ten years old, and received the Lord in a Methodist camp meeting. The summer that followed that was an unforgettable summer to me because I had a constant consciousness of God in my life. I used to sing some of the hymns to myself over, and they would cause me break into tears because I was so conscious of the nearness of God. That's what the New Covenant does for us, the provision that God has made for everyone.

You begin also to discover when you meet other Christians that they feel the same way as you. They too know God, you didn't have to tell them. They also know him as their Father. They understand that same relationship you have been brought into. That's the greatness of the New Covenant. And then there is third element in the New Covenant, one that is most important, given by these words:

"For I will forgive their wickedness and I will remember their sins no more." {Heb 8:12 NIV}

Do you remember the lifting of the load of guilt in your life when you first came to Christ? I'll never forget this in my own life. To me it was a wonderful thing to realize that all the mistakes and the ugliness of my past life, all the things I had done wrong, all the shameful episodes I would like to have forgotten were forgiven. I now had perfect access to my Father in heaven, there was now nothing between us -- He had taken care of it all by the blood of Jesus. Nothing in all of life meant more to me then, and does today, than that reality.

Most Christians, I think, fail to see that forgiveness is something we need every day. Even as Christians we go on sinning and making mistakes. Every day we need the cleansing of the blood of Jesus. Every day we need to admit to him that there are things that were wrong yesterday, or this morning; and claim again that wonderful promise, "I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more."

Now, that's the New Covenant, wonderfully applied to us today, to us who are not Jews, who don't belong to the house of Israel.

There are some, of course, among us who are Jews -- all come into the church, whether Jew and Gentile, on the same basis. Now this is why some people have greatly misunderstood the promises to the Jews. They say that the church has replaced Israel. They say that we, the church, have taken over all the promises that were given to Israel. They claim that all these promises are now spiritually fulfilled in us, and, therefore, Israel no longer has a place in God's program and plan. Now, this teaching is pressed to the point sometimes where the church is often called the new Israel or spiritual Israel, titles that are never found in Scripture.

The idea is set forth that it was God's intent to reach us Gentiles, that this was the final goal. When the Gentiles became believers in God, all the promises of God were fulfilled and Israel would no longer have a place in God's plan. But, if you think that's true, then you've forgotten what Jeremiah has said regarding Israel and God's ordinances concerning the sun and the moon, and the inability of man to measure the heavens or to plumb the depths of the earth. When you got up this morning the sun rose, or, if you rose a little later, you could count on the sun having risen. As Jeremiah has reminded us, as long as those ordinances maintain in themselves in the earth, God has pledged that he will never cast off his people Israel but they have a place in his kingdom.

When you come to the book of Romans in the New Testament you discover that the Apostle Paul explains the apparent mystery. We learn that Israel has been temporarily set aside because of their unbelief. In Romans, Chapters 9, 10, and 11, the Apostle Paul deals at length with this problem: "Where does Israel fit in the program of God?" In these three remarkable chapters the apostle carefully distinguishes between the church and Israel:

The church -- which includes believing Jews and Gentiles alike -- is called the body of Christ, which the nation Israel never is. Paul distinguishes between the church, and the nation of Israel -- which consists only of Jews, and mostly unbelieving Jews, who do not even give credence to their own Scriptures.

In Chapter 9 the apostle describes for us some of these differences. Twenty-five years after the church was born, after it came into existence on the Day of Pentecost as you have recorded in the opening chapters of Acts, the apostle admits that the unbelieving nation of Israel still has certain advantages which they cannot lose. He lists for us these advantages and distinctives in these opening words of Chapter 9:

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit [See how he undergirds with the authority of God what he's about to say.], that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites [See, clearly Jews], and to whom [pertains or] belongs the adoption as sons of God, the glory [the Shekinah glory that filled the temple and the tabernacle], the covenants [those made with Abraham and with David, with Isaac and Jacob and with others throughout the Old Testament, the covenants including the New Covenant], the giving of the Law [the Ten Commandments brought down from the mountain top, not by Charleton Heston, but by Moses himself], the temple service [that is, the tabernacle, the temple and its rituals of sacrifices and offerings], and the promises [of God, all belong to Israel -- and he goes on], whose are the fathers [the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh [the Messiah], who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. {Rom 9:1-5 NASB}

Now that's a great statement. And in it the apostle is telling us what belongs to Israel by the faithfulness of God, and can never be set aside. Now, in Chapter 11, Verses 15 and 16, he says something very interesting. Israel, he acknowledges at this point, had been set aside from its favored position before God. And God had turned to the Gentile world and had begun to take in pagans, unbelievers, idol worshippers, Gentiles who had no knowledge of all the great things that God had taught Israel in the Old Testament. In Verse 16, the apostle says:

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy: {cf, Romans 11:16 KJV}

This is a reference to something the Jews would understand. The Jews have a ritual in which they take dough, a big pile of dough made up from the first grain that is harvested, the priest would take a handful of that dough and offer it before God in the tabernacle or the temple service. Paul's argument here is, if that offering, if that handful, was offered to God at the beginning as a holy offering, then the whole lump of dough would likewise be acceptable to God. Now the firstfruits of Israel were the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were the men whom God called to himself. He accepted them and gave them the gift of eternal life, because of their faith, and that constituted the offering of firstfruit. And Paul is simply saying: Now if that was true, if he could accept these patriarchs and make them holy, then he could do the same thing with the whole nation of Israel. But then the apostle changes his figure -- and this is very important -- in the latter part of the verse:

...and if the root is holy, so are the branches. {cf, Romans 11:16b KJV}

This time of the year is the bear root season and some of you may be planting roses and fruit trees, others of you will just be putting the bare root into the ground. Just before I came here from my home in Oregon, I planted some roses and I just took a bare root, with no growth on it at all, just a little bit of the stem sticking up, and I stuck it in the ground.

A root becomes a symbol of the source of life. The root that the apostle is referring to are those divine advantages that Jews possess, which he had described so clearly in Chapter 9 -- the Shekinah glory, the promises, the sacrifices in the temple, all that God had given to Israel -- that is the root he is referring to. He says that "if the root is holy then so are the branches." And he makes very clear the reality that God, therefore, can restore life to Israel because they still possess the root that God himself had given to them. Now in Verse 17, the apostle goes on, and says:

...if some of the branches were broken off, [that is, the unbelieving nation of Israel] and you [he's talking to Gentiles -- notice Verse 13, "for I speak to you Gentiles"], being a wild olive [tree], were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the rich root [and fatness] of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward [boast against] the branches [that is, Israel]; but if you are arrogant [do boast], remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. {Romans 11:17-18 NASB}

Here we learn how it is that we Gentiles got in on this New Covenant that actually belongs to Israel. You see, the root still belongs to Israel -- but we Gentiles enjoy it by faith. God opened the door of faith to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul and by the preaching of the other apostles. This is why the Lord Jesus said to the woman at the well of Samaria, "Salvation is of the Jews," (John 4:22b {KJV}).

If we Gentiles begin to feel superior and think that we have a favored position before God, if we suppose that Israel no longer has a place in God's program for the world, let us remember Paul's words here, "you do not support the root, but the root supports you." In this same chapter of Romans, in Verse 11, Paul asks the key question,

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? {Rom 11:11a KJV}

His answer is, "By no means!" {Rom 11:11b RSV}. Certainly not! God has an appointed time when he will fulfill the promises of the New Covenant to make Israel the head of the nations of the earth, and Jerusalem the center of the government of the earth. This is what he asks us to pray for when we pray the Lord's prayer,

"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matt 6:10 KJV)

This is why the disciples came to the Lord Jesus risen from the dead and they said to him, (as we are told in the opening verses of Acts),

"Will you at this time restore the kingdom unto Israel?" (Acts 1:6b RSV)

Now, Jesus did not rebuke them for asking that question. All he did was correct their question about the timing. They said, "Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" This is after he'd been with them for 3 1/2 years and taught them much. But they still obviously expected that there would be a time coming when Israel would be restored as the head of the nations of the earth. The kingdom was to be the promises restored to Israel. But Jesus warned them, "Times are not for you to know," {cf, Acts 1:7}. Times are uncertain -- but events are not. In Romans 11, Verse 12 and following, the Apostle Paul tells us what will happen when Israel does experience the fulfillment of the New Covenant. Look at these words,

Now if their fall means riches for the world, {cf, Rom 11:12a KJV}

What will be their reward but Life from the dead.


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 5, 2006)

Part 2

Here is the first provision of the New Covenant: There will be a new awareness rising within us so that we know inwardly how to tell right from wrong.

I want you to think back to when you first came to Christ: You will discover that there came into your knowledge, your existence, your experience, a different feeling about right and wrong. Before you became a Christian, right and wrong were spelled out to you in terms of what you had been taught as you were growing up. Whether these standards were related to the Ten commandments or not, there was something external to yourself that constituted a set of standards imposed upon you from without. But, when you became a Christian, you suddenly became more sensitive in this area. That's the New Covenant being fulfilled in our lives. The second element of the New Covenant is that God has said,

"I will be their God, and they will be my people. No onger will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest." {Heb 8:10c-11 NIV}

Once again, if you think back to your first days as a believer in Jesus, you became aware that you had become a member of a new family and that God occupied a different relationship in your life. He was no longer a stern judge, condemning you every time you turned around, but he was now a loving Father. A new word came to your lips -- you began to call him Father. You sensed a new intimacy with God.

I'll never forget when I first became a Christian, I was only ten years old, and received the Lord in a Methodist camp meeting. The summer that followed that was an unforgettable summer to me because I had a constant consciousness of God in my life. I used to sing some of the hymns to myself over, and they would cause me break into tears because I was so conscious of the nearness of God. That's what the New Covenant does for us, the provision that God has made for everyone.

You begin also to discover when you meet other Christians that they feel the same way as you. They too know God, you didn't have to tell them. They also know him as their Father. They understand that same relationship you have been brought into. That's the greatness of the New Covenant. And then there is third element in the New Covenant, one that is most important, given by these words:

"For I will forgive their wickedness and I will remember their sins no more." {Heb 8:12 NIV}

Do you remember the lifting of the load of guilt in your life when you first came to Christ? I'll never forget this in my own life. To me it was a wonderful thing to realize that all the mistakes and the ugliness of my past life, all the things I had done wrong, all the shameful episodes I would like to have forgotten were forgiven. I now had perfect access to my Father in heaven, there was now nothing between us -- He had taken care of it all by the blood of Jesus. Nothing in all of life meant more to me then, and does today, than that reality.

Most Christians, I think, fail to see that forgiveness is something we need every day. Even as Christians we go on sinning and making mistakes. Every day we need the cleansing of the blood of Jesus. Every day we need to admit to him that there are things that were wrong yesterday, or this morning; and claim again that wonderful promise, "I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more."

Now, that's the New Covenant, wonderfully applied to us today, to us who are not Jews, who don't belong to the house of Israel.

There are some, of course, among us who are Jews -- all come into the church, whether Jew and Gentile, on the same basis. Now this is why some people have greatly misunderstood the promises to the Jews. They say that the church has replaced Israel. They say that we, the church, have taken over all the promises that were given to Israel. They claim that all these promises are now spiritually fulfilled in us, and, therefore, Israel no longer has a place in God's program and plan. Now, this teaching is pressed to the point sometimes where the church is often called the new Israel or spiritual Israel, titles that are never found in Scripture.

The idea is set forth that it was God's intent to reach us Gentiles, that this was the final goal. When the Gentiles became believers in God, all the promises of God were fulfilled and Israel would no longer have a place in God's plan. But, if you think that's true, then you've forgotten what Jeremiah has said regarding Israel and God's ordinances concerning the sun and the moon, and the inability of man to measure the heavens or to plumb the depths of the earth. When you got up this morning the sun rose, or, if you rose a little later, you could count on the sun having risen. As Jeremiah has reminded us, as long as those ordinances maintain in themselves in the earth, God has pledged that he will never cast off his people Israel but they have a place in his kingdom.

When you come to the book of Romans in the New Testament you discover that the Apostle Paul explains the apparent mystery. We learn that Israel has been temporarily set aside because of their unbelief. In Romans, Chapters 9, 10, and 11, the Apostle Paul deals at length with this problem: "Where does Israel fit in the program of God?" In these three remarkable chapters the apostle carefully distinguishes between the church and Israel:

The church -- which includes believing Jews and Gentiles alike -- is called the body of Christ, which the nation Israel never is. Paul distinguishes between the church, and the nation of Israel -- which consists only of Jews, and mostly unbelieving Jews, who do not even give credence to their own Scriptures.

In Chapter 9 the apostle describes for us some of these differences. Twenty-five years after the church was born, after it came into existence on the Day of Pentecost as you have recorded in the opening chapters of Acts, the apostle admits that the unbelieving nation of Israel still has certain advantages which they cannot lose. He lists for us these advantages and distinctives in these opening words of Chapter 9:

I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit [See how he undergirds with the authority of God what he's about to say.], that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites [See, clearly Jews], and to whom [pertains or] belongs the adoption as sons of God, the glory [the Shekinah glory that filled the temple and the tabernacle], the covenants [those made with Abraham and with David, with Isaac and Jacob and with others throughout the Old Testament, the covenants including the New Covenant], the giving of the Law [the Ten Commandments brought down from the mountain top, not by Charleton Heston, but by Moses himself], the temple service [that is, the tabernacle, the temple and its rituals of sacrifices and offerings], and the promises [of God, all belong to Israel -- and he goes on], whose are the fathers [the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob], and from whom is the Christ according to the flesh [the Messiah], who is over all, God blessed forever. Amen. {Rom 9:1-5 NASB}

Now that's a great statement. And in it the apostle is telling us what belongs to Israel by the faithfulness of God, and can never be set aside. Now, in Chapter 11, Verses 15 and 16, he says something very interesting. Israel, he acknowledges at this point, had been set aside from its favored position before God. And God had turned to the Gentile world and had begun to take in pagans, unbelievers, idol worshippers, Gentiles who had no knowledge of all the great things that God had taught Israel in the Old Testament. In Verse 16, the apostle says:

For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy: {cf, Romans 11:16 KJV}

This is a reference to something the Jews would understand. The Jews have a ritual in which they take dough, a big pile of dough made up from the first grain that is harvested, the priest would take a handful of that dough and offer it before God in the tabernacle or the temple service. Paul's argument here is, if that offering, if that handful, was offered to God at the beginning as a holy offering, then the whole lump of dough would likewise be acceptable to God. Now the firstfruits of Israel were the patriarchs -- Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They were the men whom God called to himself. He accepted them and gave them the gift of eternal life, because of their faith, and that constituted the offering of firstfruit. And Paul is simply saying: Now if that was true, if he could accept these patriarchs and make them holy, then he could do the same thing with the whole nation of Israel. But then the apostle changes his figure -- and this is very important -- in the latter part of the verse:

...and if the root is holy, so are the branches. {cf, Romans 11:16b KJV}

This time of the year is the bear root season and some of you may be planting roses and fruit trees, others of you will just be putting the bare root into the ground. Just before I came here from my home in Oregon, I planted some roses and I just took a bare root, with no growth on it at all, just a little bit of the stem sticking up, and I stuck it in the ground.

A root becomes a symbol of the source of life. The root that the apostle is referring to are those divine advantages that Jews possess, which he had described so clearly in Chapter 9 -- the Shekinah glory, the promises, the sacrifices in the temple, all that God had given to Israel -- that is the root he is referring to. He says that "if the root is holy then so are the branches." And he makes very clear the reality that God, therefore, can restore life to Israel because they still possess the root that God himself had given to them. Now in Verse 17, the apostle goes on, and says:

...if some of the branches were broken off, [that is, the unbelieving nation of Israel] and you [he's talking to Gentiles -- notice Verse 13, "for I speak to you Gentiles"], being a wild olive [tree], were grafted in among them and became a partaker with them of the rich root [and fatness] of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward [boast against] the branches [that is, Israel]; but if you are arrogant [do boast], remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. {Romans 11:17-18 NASB}

Here we learn how it is that we Gentiles got in on this New Covenant that actually belongs to Israel. You see, the root still belongs to Israel -- but we Gentiles enjoy it by faith. God opened the door of faith to the Gentiles through the Apostle Paul and by the preaching of the other apostles. This is why the Lord Jesus said to the woman at the well of Samaria, "Salvation is of the Jews," (John 4:22b {KJV}).

If we Gentiles begin to feel superior and think that we have a favored position before God, if we suppose that Israel no longer has a place in God's program for the world, let us remember Paul's words here, "you do not support the root, but the root supports you." In this same chapter of Romans, in Verse 11, Paul asks the key question,

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? {Rom 11:11a KJV}

His answer is, "By no means!" {Rom 11:11b RSV}. Certainly not! God has an appointed time when he will fulfill the promises of the New Covenant to make Israel the head of the nations of the earth, and Jerusalem the center of the government of the earth. This is what he asks us to pray for when we pray the Lord's prayer,

"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." (Matt 6:10 KJV)

This is why the disciples came to the Lord Jesus risen from the dead and they said to him, (as we are told in the opening verses of Acts),

"Will you at this time restore the kingdom unto Israel?" (Acts 1:6b RSV)

Now, Jesus did not rebuke them for asking that question. All he did was correct their question about the timing. They said, "Will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?" This is after he'd been with them for 3 1/2 years and taught them much. But they still obviously expected that there would be a time coming when Israel would be restored as the head of the nations of the earth. The kingdom was to be the promises restored to Israel. But Jesus warned them, "Times are not for you to know," {cf, Acts 1:7}. Times are uncertain -- but events are not. In Romans 11, Verse 12 and following, the Apostle Paul tells us what will happen when Israel does experience the fulfillment of the New Covenant. Look at these words,

Now if their fall means riches for the world, {cf, Rom 11:12a KJV}

What will be their reward but Life from the dead.


----------



## 270win (Aug 5, 2006)

Look, no offense intended here.  But I'd like to know what you think about this subject.  It would be really boring for us to copy and paste articles back and forth.  I skimmed through the article and it's interesting.  I still don't see where the Jews have an "automatic" pass because they're Jewish.  Jesus is the new covenant and through Him they may be saved by grace through faith....

Be blessed,
270


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## Hawkeye (Aug 6, 2006)

Grace and Mercy is how everyone is saved


----------



## 270win (Aug 6, 2006)

Yes, that's right.  It's by grace through faith and the mercy of God that He sent God the Son, Jesus to be a sacrifice for our (all of us) sins.  That mankind might be redeemend by His sinless life, death, burial and resurrection.  But this does not occur automatically, it's a choice that we all must make to receive the gift of God... salvation through Jesus.  

It's intersting, I can't tell if you're disagreeing or not...

Here's a definitive question-
In your understanding, is Jesus Christ necessary for salvation to all mankind?  Jew and gentile...

That's my understanding of the scriptures and belief, so far I've seen no proof to the contrary.

Be blessed,
270


----------



## SBG (Aug 6, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> From God.



They must have a very weak god. 

A creature couldn't steal anything from the God of the Bible.


----------



## SBG (Aug 6, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> It's intersting, I can't tell if you're disagreeing or not...
> 
> Here's a definitive question-
> In your understanding, is Jesus Christ necessary for salvation to all mankind?  Jew and gentile...
> ...



Acts 4:10
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.  

4:11
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.  

4:12
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 6, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Yes, that's right.  It's by grace through faith and the mercy of God that He sent God the Son, Jesus to be a sacrifice for our (all of us) sins.  That mankind might be redeemend by His sinless life, death, burial and resurrection.  But this does not occur automatically, it's a choice that we all must make to receive the gift of God... salvation through Jesus.
> 
> It's intersting, I can't tell if you're disagreeing or not...
> 
> ...



I don't think I have ever said Jesus Christ Blood is not necessary for salvation, that would be contrary to The New Testament as well as the old, which reads: "Without blood their is no remission of sin"

The Part that we seem to be stuck on, is God's sovereing right to keep his covenant with Israel, which I explained in that long post, copied and pasted but it is very clear on that subject.

No one can tell God who is the sovereign of all creation , who to apply the blood to.

This is caused by the gentile church not understanding How the Blood of the Lamb of Passover is applied to forgive a man or mankind. So based on a Paulinian doctrine to gentiles it is only those who accept Christ to which the Blood is applied.

I submitt to you that Jews are saved by the Blood of the same Messiah, applied according to Jewish law , not gentile Law.

Even the Jews are the ones who carry the testimony of Jesus Christ, even when they did not realise they were.

Will God forsake those who by dissobedience carry the Law, taught the law , reveal The LAw and brought the messiah to the world ? I think Not.

The Proof is in the word, What was Christ first mission after death ? Peter said "he descended to the lowest parts of the earth and preached to those who were onced dissobedient, and perished during the Flood of Noah"

Here we can get an idea how God had mercy even unto the dead.

Then if we go to Matthew chapter 27 verses 51 and on it describes how the saints resurrected after Jesus resurrection, they are called saints , yet the church did not exist yet as such, so this saints are called the first fruit of the Israel, in other words the patriarchs and prophets resurrected. Did they ever profess Jesus or faith in Jesus ?

They certainly only believed that a Messiah would rise from the line of David, but did they know his name ?

So just that little bit of faith saved them, from Abraham on.

Much examination must be taken to come to understand God's mercy and God's covenants with Israel, one cannot do what you said and put perimeters to God as to how he is going to apply the Lamb of God's blood.

I hope this expands your understanding, it is taken me 50 years of studying the word in hebrew, Greek english and spanish to arrive at this understanding.

Shalom, Shalom


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## SBG (Aug 6, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Yes, that's right.  It's by grace through faith and the mercy of God that He sent God the Son, Jesus to be a sacrifice for our (all of us) sins.  That mankind might be redeemend by His sinless life, death, burial and resurrection.  But this does not occur automatically, it's a choice that we all must make to receive the gift of God... salvation through Jesus.
> 
> It's intersting, I can't tell if you're disagreeing or not...
> 
> ...



270...looks like you are not going to get a straight answer. Been interesting watching the scriptures being wrested though.


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 6, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> 270...looks like you are not going to get a straight answer. Been interesting watching the scriptures being wrested though.



Well Actually I answered it in my first statement, Without the blood of christ no one can be saved, is that understandable to you now,LOL


----------



## 270win (Aug 6, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> They must have a very weak god.



Good point SBG.

Hawkeye-
I agree with SBG, I was going to ask the same question.  It did appear as though you were just refusing to give a straight forward answer.  

You wrote earlier-
"The Part that we seem to be stuck on, is God's sovereing right to keep his covenant with Israel....." You seem to see that covenant as an inheritance that all Jews receive whether they want it or not... As if they're not free to reject God and die without Him.

And
"This is caused by the gentile church not understanding How the Blood of the Lamb of Passover is applied to forgive a man or mankind. So based on a Paulinian doctrine to gentiles it is only those who accept Christ to which the Blood is applied."[
This is where you are confusing.  Your last post says-
"Without the blood of christ no one can be saved", 
but right before that you said -
"based on a Paulinian doctrine to gentiles it is only those who accept Christ to which the Blood is applied"

Which is it?  

There were also scripture verses that you seemed to be interpreting out of context or just flat out incorrectly which we "skipped over" without clarifying.  I guess we can sort our one thing at a time if you'd like.  But if we can avoid the articles that would be better I think. 

Be blessed,
270


----------



## SBG (Aug 6, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Well Actually I answered it in my first statement, Without the blood of christ no one can be saved, is that understandable to you now,LOL



No.


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 6, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Good point SBG.
> 
> Hawkeye-
> I agree with SBG, I was going to ask the same question.  It did appear as though you were just refusing to give a straight forward answer.
> ...



Well Am not typing that over again,LOL

Read the long post and you will see God's covenant with abraham is eternal and binding, specially by God, who do not change, he is inmutable.

I understand your point because I use to believe as you were taught, that there is only one gospel(Or promise to both Jews and Gentiles).As far as how we are saved, that is by the blood of Christ, as to how the blood is applied I dissagree with church dogma, without Christ you cannot be saved.

But if we believe that Yeshua(Jesus) is God, then he is the same who always saved the Jews, even the old Jews who already died.
I gave you proof in the last post, God applied the blood of Christ to their sins.

That is why Christ is known as the Lamb of God before the beginning of Creation, you have heard or read that term before ?

That means God saves whom he will save;
Now Paul explains what he means, "As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now* (some manuscripts do not have "now") receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all."

Anybody who believes that Paul speaks the word of God would have a very difficult time denying that Paul believed God intended to save all the Jews somewhere, sometime. If this is true, then Paul understood that the problem created by God's hardening the hearts of the Jews was a temporary problem that would be remedied by God Himself when "the full number of the Gentiles has come in."






I use to believe God was limited to as how and whom can be saved, so if you have a God that surrender His power to the Church then he is no longer God.

I think that doctrine is also borned in the RCC , where the church has the power to absolve you or condemned you.

This will be a great discussion if I had time, But I hate to start it and then Have to leave for Israel.

Iam still a LT, Coronel in teh IDF reserves and will probably be called in to serve in hospitals probably, Am to old for the front.


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 7, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> They must have a very weak god.
> 
> A creature couldn't steal anything from the God of the Bible.




Really?  
Don't you believe that the devil has stolen souls from God? Led them away?
Interesting......


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 7, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> [/COLOR]Good luck with Dixie Dawg- She's a handful!!! LOL!
> I really haven't seen anything she says that is wrong, i think she does have a certain light about the words that others might not have.




Hawkeye, you are a brave, brave man!!!


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## Inatree (Aug 7, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Really?
> Don't you believe that the devil has stolen souls from God? Led them away?
> Interesting......



By that logic , My landscaper owes me some weeds


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 7, 2006)

Inatree said:
			
		

> By that logic , My landscaper owes me some weeds


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## 270win (Aug 7, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> This will be a great discussion if I had time, But I hate to start it and then Have to leave for Israel.
> 
> Iam still a LT, Coronel in teh IDF reserves and will probably be called in to serve in hospitals probably, Am to old for the front.



I'm sure we can go into it when you get back if you're still confused.     Seriously though, I'm praying for you, Israel and the IDF.  Be safe and be blessed...

270


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## 270win (Aug 7, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Really?
> Don't you believe that the devil has stolen souls from God? Led them away?
> Interesting......



Hey Dixie,
Been wondering where you were.

Actually the Bible teaches that God is sovereign over all created beings. satan and the demons are created and thus they are under His control.  In Job 1:9So Satan answered the LORD and said, "Does Job fear God for nothing? 10Have You not made a hedge around him, around his household, and around all that he has on every side? You have blessed the work of his hands, and his possessions have increased in the land.

Obviously satan has been trying to get to job, his family and his  posessions.  But he was unable to because God had a hedge of protection around them. 

Then we see in Job 9:11But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face! " It's by God's hand that Job is tested.  Yes it's by satan's request, but not by his choice.  he would have attacked Job long before now if given the opportunity.

12And the LORD said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power; only do not lay a hand on his person."   God even tells him what he can and cannot do.

It's also interesting to look at Luke 22:31 And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. 
So again we see that satan has to ask God if he can sift or attack someone that belongs to God.  

Be blessed,
270


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## Spotlite (Aug 7, 2006)

Feel the love


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## 270win (Aug 7, 2006)

Do you feel that too??

270


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## Hawkeye (Aug 7, 2006)

Don't know what you guys are talking about , Love etc, SO I assume is something between you guys, it doesn't have anything to do with me ? I hope.

Am still here , don't know for how long, The notice is a stand by notice. Am assuming things will get better and then Kabooon ! the whole thing will break nto a regional war and perhaps Ezequiel 38-39 and then the Coming of Masshiach Yeshua. That is my hope anyways.

Shalom


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## StriperAddict (Aug 7, 2006)

*Another testimony...*

Here's another testimony worth noting:
======================================

Dr. Vera Schlamm – A Survivor with a Story

At four feet nine inches, Dr. Vera Schlamm’s small stature belies a large spirit. She withstood the horrors of a concentration camp and went on to become a medical doctor. Along the way, her search for God was satisfied as she never would have imagined. 

Vera was born in Germany in 1923. Her parents, Max and Meta, owned a prosperous manufacturing firm. Vera and her older sister, Marga, belonged to a loving family life where Jewish tradition played an integral part. 

When Hitler came to power they lost everything. Vera remembers, “My father had fought for the Germans in World War I—he was a decorated soldier. In the end, all that mattered was that we were Jewish.” 

The War Comes

The family fled to Holland in 1938 but on February 16, 1944, the family was sent to Bergen-Belsen concentration camp. The horrors were unimaginable. 

Even there, Vera often prayed to God, and the family followed what Jewish observance they could. Miraculously, they survived. On January 24, 1945, they were released to Switzerland in an exchange of prisoners. 

New Life in America

Vera began a second life in the United States. She was able to go to college and four years later entered medical school at Southwestern Medical School in Texas. Specializing in pediatric medicine, Vera completed her two-year residency at Children’s Hospital of Los Angeles in 1959. 

Through her practice, she met Milton and Lisa Palmer. Although he was a Baptist minister, they became friends. Vera says, “I saw something different in them. As our friendship deepened, I became interested in their beliefs.” 

The Palmers’ emphasis on the words of the Hebrew prophets and the work of the Messiah puzzled Vera. Wasn’t it enough just to believe in God? Delving into her siddur, she was astonished to find that Maimonides’ well-known 13 Articles of Faith stressed both belief in a personal God and the hope of the coming of Messiah. 

Vera continued to search the Hebrew Scriptures and found that they pointed to Yeshua as the Messiah. After a time of searching and prayer, Vera accepted Yeshua as the Jewish Messiah in 1962. Eventually, one by one, her family members did also. 

New Life in Messiah

In accepting Yeshua, Vera found that the Jewish identity that had always sustained her has become enriched in ways she would never have thought possible. 

What of her time in the concentration camp? Vera reflects,“I realize now that this same God and the same Messiah I had been searching for understood my suffering in the concentration camp more than anyone else. Any bitterness has been replaced with peace and joy.” 

Going strong at almost eighty, Vera’s life is a living confirmation of these words.


From:
http://www.chosenpeople.com/docs/Curious/AboutUs2/00-10NL1/schlamm.html


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 7, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Hey Dixie,
> Been wondering where you were.



Thanks!! I hop in and out as I can... this is a busy time of the year for me, and will be until after the first of the year!





> It's by God's hand that Job is tested. .
> 
> God even tells him what he can and cannot do.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the admission that God is the one doing the testing! 

So if that's all true, then why is it when someone backslides or sins or is tempted/tested, everyone blames it on 'the devil made me do it'??    I know what my own belief is, but I'm interested in yours as well.

And for those who may want to jump on this, because I know how you are... this is not an attempt to start a 'debate'... just discussing!


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 7, 2006)

Hawkeye, I'll keep you in my prayers!!

V'ad- 'olam me'atah u vo e'kha yish mar tze it kha Adonai

(The Lord will guard your going out and your coming in now and forever.)


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## StriperAddict (Aug 7, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> So if that's all true, then why is it when someone backslides or sins or is tempted/tested, everyone blames it on 'the devil made me do it'??    I know what my own belief is, but I'm interested in yours as well.



Too many christians 'blame' things like temptation on the devil, but that is not always the case.

But there are clearly times of demonic/satanic trouble on both believer and unbeliever.  I'll get into the references tomorrow, but many of you folks know them already.


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## 270win (Aug 7, 2006)

Well Dixie,
In my experience and understanding, we Christians give satan and the demons (fallen angels) WAY more credit than he deserves.  To say the "devil made me do it" takes the failure off of us and places it on the devil.  Now satan does desire to sift us, destroy us and keep us from realizing our full potential as the people of God.  And he is used by God to test us, refine and mold us more into His image.  In the garden He created us in His image and His desire since Adam and Eve sinned has been to restore His image in us...

You're correct, there are times when demons do harass believers and unbelievers.  But most of the time the influence of the flesh and it's sinful desires or the world and it's moral bankruptcy are enough to make the believer fail and bring trials into their lives all by themselves...

There are many believers that will say that a demon cannot effect a believer, this is an error in interpretation, a demon cannot posess a believer, but they can effect a believer if God allows the test to come.

I have no problem with the fact that God allows and even sometimes initiates the test and trials in our lives.  We do not worship a God that is playing celestial tennis with the devil.  He is sovereign over him in every way. satan knows it too.  He just doesn't want us to know it....

What sayest thou Dixie?

Be blessed,
270


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## Hawkeye (Aug 7, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hawkeye, I'll keep you in my prayers!!
> 
> V'ad- 'olam me'atah u vo e'kha yish mar tze it kha Adonai
> 
> (The Lord will guard your going out and your coming in now and forever.)



TODAH RABAH, Shalom ha masshiach


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## PWalls (Aug 8, 2006)

Christians who use the term "the devil made me do it" are wrong. The devil tempts. That's it. God has already promised us that he will not allow any temptation that we are not able to withstand. If we committ a sin, it is knowingly and fully ours. If we fall for that temptation, it is all on us.


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## SBG (Aug 8, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Really?
> Don't you believe that the devil has stolen souls from God? Led them away?
> Interesting......



Nope...you really need to read Job to understand God's sovereignty.


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## SBG (Aug 8, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> I'm sure we can go into it when you get back if you're still confused.     Seriously though, I'm praying for you, Israel and the IDF.  Be safe and be blessed...
> 
> 270



Amen!


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## rocket rob (Aug 8, 2006)

I say we are all from the seeds of adam. The only one who has walked this earth that has not come from the seed of adam is jesus. The devil is so strong he will trun the teaching of the bible to please your needs and take you away from GOD. jesus is the son of god the holy gost and the father. If you say your not from the seed of adam than your saying to me that you are = to Jesus and God did not make you out of dust.The only way to God is through Jesus we must belive in him that he is the almaity and serve him. So meny wars have been fought so much blood has been shed over religon. This is how i was raised and i dont think i can can just belive in any thing else. Do you thing you have been temped by the devil ? The devil has his demons to do his work for him (Fallen angels that were cast out of heaven with him) We are so weak the devil does not have to temp us himself. We are all sinners and not strong as Jesus was on earth. Was he temped o yes by the devil himself.Get behind me devil.    Jesus is the way and it is hard to fight temptation but we must trust in the lord. Lets dont take the bible and turn it around to suite our needs so that we can live the way we wont to. May God bless us all......I am not judging no one here just telling my belives.....


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## 270win (Aug 8, 2006)

Pwalls-
"The devil tempts. That's it. God has already promised us that he will not allow any temptation that we are not able to withstand. If we committ a sin, it is knowingly and fully ours. If we fall for that temptation, it is all on us." 
That's true. 1 Cor. 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. 
But we are also tempted by the flesh as well.  We have to crucify our flesh daily.
Ga 5:13 -For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 

Ga 5:16 -But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh. 17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. 

Ga 5:19 -Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, 

Ga 5:24 -Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 
We have the ability to walk according to the Spirit but we also can walk according to the flesh.  Most of the sin issues I see in ministry are just the fruit of the flesh, not the work of the demonic.. Although we've seen that too.... That could be a thread unto itself...

Be blessed,
270


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## PWalls (Aug 8, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> We have the ability to walk according to the Spirit but we also can walk according to the flesh.  Most of the sin issues I see in ministry are just the fruit of the flesh, not the work of the demonic.. Although we've seen that too.... That could be a thread unto itself...
> 
> Be blessed,
> 270




I agree.


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## Inatree (Aug 8, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> "The devil tempts. That's it.
> 
> Be blessed,
> 270



I gotta add this brother, "Deceives, distorts and confuses".
With these powers he can make temptations appear as opportunities or even blessings.
He IS perfect ,God dont make mistakes.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 8, 2006)

rocket rob said:
			
		

> I say we are all from the seeds of adam. The only one who has walked this earth that has not come from the seed of adam is jesus. The devil is so strong he will trun the teaching of the bible to please your needs and take you away from GOD. jesus is the son of god the holy gost and the father. If you say your not from the seed of adam than your saying to me that you are = to Jesus and God did not make you out of dust.The only way to God is through Jesus we must belive in him that he is the almaity and serve him. So meny wars have been fought so much blood has been shed over religon. This is how i was raised and i dont think i can can just belive in any thing else. Do you thing you have been temped by the devil ? The devil has his demons to do his work for him (Fallen angels that were cast out of heaven with him) We are so weak the devil does not have to temp us himself. We are all sinners and not strong as Jesus was on earth. Was he temped o yes by the devil himself.Get behind me devil.    Jesus is the way and it is hard to fight temptation but we must trust in the lord. Lets dont take the bible and turn it around to suite our needs so that we can live the way we wont to. May God bless us all......I am not judging no one here just telling my belives.....




Huuuum ! can you explain what you mean Jesus is not of the seed of Adam ? Am having a hard time understanding that,Thanks


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## 270win (Aug 8, 2006)

I can't believe I didn't say that too...  

Be Blessed,
270


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## 270win (Aug 8, 2006)

I think he was referring to the fact that Adam's decendants were born in his image.
Gen 5:3 When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth. 

Jesus was fathered by The Holy Spirit... Not a descendant of Adam.
Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit.

Of course I don't want to put words in someone's mouth.  But that is what I understood him to say.

Be blessed,
270


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## rocket rob (Aug 8, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Huuuum ! can you explain what you mean Jesus is not of the seed of Adam ? Am having a hard time understanding that,Thanks


GOD sent into this world a part of himself. He put himself in marry so he could be born into this world and sent an angel to tell marry that she was going to give birth with out being with a man and she would name him Jesus. Man was made from the dust from the earth in the likeness of God. GOD did not make Jesus out of dust he gave a part  of himself to us through marry and his name was Jesus, the son of GOD. GOD did this to show the whole world that he loves us so much that he sent a part of himself to walk the earth to go through the trials that an ordinary man would face (temtation). Jesus new he had to die for man so we may be forgiven for our sins through his blood. Their is only one way to heaven and GOD and that is through Jesus. So we must belive that Jesus is the son of GOD and when he died he became the holly gost that feeling inside of you that you now right from wrong but it is your choice to do the right thing. So Jesus and GOD and the holly gost are the same. Look at an egg their are 3 parts to an egg but thay are one in the same. Jesus is not from the seed of adam because adam is made form the dust of the earth and when he ate the forbiden fruth he sined their fore we are all sinners cause we came frome the seed of adam. Its our choice to believe or not, to follow or not.


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## redwards (Aug 8, 2006)

May be sort of  but the statement, and question about Jesus 'not being the seed of Adam' causes me to reflect on this truth (as I see it). 
When a descendant(s) is/are listed in the bible, isn't the name of the man usually given?
But in Gen 3:15, the 'seed' referred to is the 'seed' of the woman, is it not. Further, it is not the seed of just any woman, but it is 'the' woman and 'her' seed. Who is 'the' woman and who is 'her' seed?
Again (as I see it) the 'her' referred to in this scripture verse is none other than 'Mary, the mother of Jesus'; therefore I believe it is a prophecy of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and not just a prophecy of Jesus' birth, but a prophecy of the virgin birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.
So, while Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, He was of the seed of Adam. Wholly (Holy) God, yet fully human!
Refer to this chart. Lineage Chart of Jesus . His lineage can be traced from Mary (his mother) all the way back to Adam. Follow the right hand column.


Edited to add: ...and not just a prophecy of Jesus' birth, but a prophecy of the virgin birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 8, 2006)

Rocket rob, pardon me if I misunderstand your post, but it sounds like you're almost saying that Jesus Christ was NOT fully MAN...  which is contrary to scripture:

1 John 4:2 
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 8, 2006)

I have a certain problem with that assumption since the Word says he went back to Adam;

Luke 3:21-38

21 Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heaven was opened, 22 and the Holy Spirit descended upon him in bodily form, as a dove, and a voice came from heaven, "Thou art my beloved Son; with thee I am well pleased."
23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Where you err is that you have not considered that Isha (Eve) came from Adam and not vise versa , so in fact Jesus had the geneology of Adam.
Because Jesus Body was prepared even before the Fall of Mankind he was holy.


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## rocket rob (Aug 8, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> Rocket rob, pardon me if I misunderstand your post, but it sounds like you're almost saying that Jesus Christ was NOT fully MAN...  which is contrary to scripture:
> 
> 1 John 4:2
> By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.


Jesus was in the flesh as a man. He did bleed as a man he was tempted as a man but he was not made by man Jesus had the power to end the earth then but he new what had to be done. I can only tell what i believe. My teaching on marry is that she carried Jesus in her whom and gave birth to him. GOD put Jesus thier marry just carried him in her whom and gave birth to him. I have been thought that Jesus was not from the seed of adam. This has been my teaching.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 8, 2006)

rocket rob said:
			
		

> Jesus was in the flesh as a man. He did bleed as a man he was tempted as a man but he was not made by man Jesus had the power to end the earth then but he new what had to be done. I can only tell what i believe. My teaching on marry is that she carried Jesus in her whom and gave birth to him. GOD put Jesus thier marry just carried him in her whom and gave birth to him. I have been thought that Jesus was not from the seed of adam. This has been my teaching.



OK, then can you shed some light on post #68??


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## rocket rob (Aug 8, 2006)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> OK, then can you shed some light on post #68??


Im sorry but i am not a doctor of theology and will not try to dissolve scripture. I try to understand the scripture the best i can through my teaching. I am only a man born into sin and came from the seed of adam. Jesus was pure and free of sin....


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## StriperAddict (Aug 8, 2006)

rocket rob said:
			
		

> Im sorry but i am not a doctor of theology and will not try to dissolve scripture. I try to understand the scripture the best i can through my teaching. I am only a man born into sin and came from the seed of adam. Jesus was pure and free of sin....



No problem here...

just that God made it a point to talk about the genology of Christ...  an emphasis that has both historical (Israel  ) significance and spiritual significance as well.

Revelation 22:16
" I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches _I am the root and the descendant of David_, the bright morning star."


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## 270win (Aug 8, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> I have a certain problem with that assumption since the Word says he went back to Adam;



His earthly father did.  His father was Joseph, but Joseph was not His genetic father.  The lineage of Joseph does go back to Adam.  But that is true for everyone who is alive today....  The difference is the fact that the Holy Spirit is the one by whom Mary became with child.  The "immaculate conception" if you will.

rocket-
I'm not trying to debate you on this point but I wanted to clarify something.  You had posted earlier-
"So we must belive that Jesus is the son of GOD and when he died he became the holly gost that feeling inside of you that you now right from wrong but it is your choice to do the right thing." 
Jesus is at the right hand of the Father interceeding for us daily.  Acts 2:33 "Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear. 

The Holy Spirit, the third person of the trinity, always has existed.  Gen. 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the *Spirit of God *was moving over the surface of the waters. 3 Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light.

Also, the Holy Spirit came upon Him at His baptism.
Mark 1:10 Immediately coming up out of the water, He saw the heavens opening, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon Him

And after His resurrection He appeared to the disciples and imparted the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
John 20: 22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit...."

So Jesus didn't become the Holy Spirit, He ascended into heaven until His return.  The Holy Spirit came in power to the church during the observance of pentecost....

Again, not trying to debate you.  Just hoping to clarify...

Be blessed,
270


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 8, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> Again (as I see it) the 'her' referred to in this scripture verse is none other than 'Mary, the mother of Jesus'; therefore I believe it is a prophecy of the birth of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and not just a prophecy of Jesus' birth, but a prophecy of the virgin birth of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.



Wow... that takes a huge stretch to come to that conclusion via the path you've made!!!!   




> So, while Jesus was conceived of the Holy Spirit, He was of the seed of Adam. Wholly (Holy) God, yet fully human!



1Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; 

2Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before [their] enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near; 

According to the scriptures, isn't your statement sort of an oxymoron?  If there is no man (human) who does not sin, how could Jesus have been 'fully man' if he didn't sin?  If he didn't sin, then he wasn't 'fully man'... based upon the "Old Testament".

And I didn't even have to reach for that one.....


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## Hawkeye (Aug 8, 2006)

The point about the Holy Spirit, IN many Instances teh word speaks of The Spirit Of Jesus as being the same as the (Rhua Ha Kodesh) the holy Spirit.

Yes Jesus' body was created without the will of a man,His body was prepared according to verses and kept until the moment the Holy Spirit placed it in Myriame (Mary) then she conceived it and He developed in her.
But the Spirit In Him was God, therefore the term SON applies to his human body, as a whole being he was God, as a human body He was the Son.

The Human body was subject to all the weaknesses, sickness and diseases and temptations as any man, But his Deity kept him from all of those weaknesses.

Sorry sometimes I think in Hebrew and try to write in english , I hope it is clear what Am trying to convey, Shalom


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 8, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Yes Jesus' body was created without the will of a man,His body was prepared according to verses



Which verses?



> But the Spirit In Him was God, therefore the term SON applies to his human body, as a whole being he was God, as a human body He was the Son.
> 
> The Human body was subject to all the weaknesses, sickness and diseases and temptations as any man, But his Deity kept him from all of those weaknesses.



Then there is no way he was 'fully man'.
Thanks for verifying that for me!!!


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## redwards (Aug 9, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Wow... that takes a huge stretch to come to that conclusion via the path you've made!!!!


A stretch? No, not really, not at all. It only takes believing God's word as Truth, and accepting Jesus for who He is, The Son of God.
Gal. 4:4





> 1Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;
> 
> 2Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for [there is] no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before [their] enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;
> 
> ...


If you are going to try to quote me, at least give me the respect to quote me exactly. I don't recall typing 'fully man'. I recall typing 'fully human'. And true, no 'man' is without sin. But it is Truth that, 'God in human form', Jesus was totally without sin.
Heb. 4:15
And really, when quoting scripture, shouldn't you quote it in context? 
Isn't that what you always ask us to do?


----------



## ilikembig (Aug 9, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> The point about the Holy Spirit, IN many Instances teh word speaks of The Spirit Of Jesus as being the same as the (Rhua Ha Kodesh) the holy Spirit.
> 
> Yes Jesus' body was created without the will of a man,His body was prepared according to verses and kept until the moment the Holy Spirit placed it in Myriame (Mary) then she conceived it and He developed in her.
> But the Spirit In Him was God, therefore the term SON applies to his human body, as a whole being he was God, as a human body He was the Son.
> ...




This was stated pretty well. I have gone out and found some verses that can be reflected upon.  I hope this helps out DD.

2) son of man

a) term describing man, carrying the connotation of weakness and mortality

b) son of man, symbolically denotes the fifth kingdom in Daniel 7:13 and by this term its humanity is indicated in contrast with the barbarity and ferocity of the four preceding kingdoms (the Babylonian, the Median and the Persian, the Macedonian, and the Roman) typified by the four beasts. In the book of Enoch (2nd Century) it is used of Christ.

c) used by Christ himself, doubtless in order that he might intimate his Messiahship and also that he might designate himself as the head of the human family, the man, the one who both furnished the pattern of the perfect man and acted on behalf of all mankind. Christ seems to have preferred this to the other Messianic titles, because by its lowliness it was least suited to foster the expectation of an earthly Messiah in royal splendour.

3) son of God

a) used to describe Adam (Lk. 3:38)

b) used to describe those who are born again (Lk. 20:36) and of angels and of Jesus Christ

c) of those whom God esteems as sons, whom he loves, protects and benefits above others

1) in the OT used of the Jews

2) in the NT of Christians

3) those whose character God, as a loving father, shapes by chastisements (Heb. 12:5-8)

d) those who revere God as their father, the pious worshippers of God, those who in character and life resemble God, those who are governed by the Spirit of God, repose the same calm and joyful trust in God which children do in their parents (Rom. 8:14, Gal. 3:26 ), and hereafter in the blessedness and glory of the life eternal will openly wear this dignity of the sons of God. Term used preeminently of Jesus Christ, as enjoying the supreme love of God, united to him in affectionate intimacy, privy to his saving councils, obedient to the Father's will in all his acts

 3.) In the New Testament it is used forty-three times as a distinctive title of the Saviour. In the Old Testament it is used only in Psa 80:17 and Dan 7:13 with this application. It denotes the true humanity of our Lord. He had a true body ( Hbr 2:14; Luk 24:39) and a rational soul. He was perfect man.


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 9, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> If you are going to try to quote me, at least give me the respect to quote me exactly. I don't recall typing 'fully man'. I recall typing 'fully human'.



Ummmm.... ok.... not sure what your point is? Are not all men and women HUMANS???  Are not all humans MEN and WOMEN??? If this is not a factual statement, then please show me an example of a human who was not a man or a woman??  Or do you believe in aliens?  

[quote And true, no 'man' is without sin. But it is Truth that, 'God in human form', Jesus was totally without sin.
Heb. 4:15[/quote]

Doesn't change a thing that I stated... humans, in your belief, have a sinful nature.  Therefore, Jesus could not have been 'fully human', and unless you are implying that God has a sinful nature, then God could not be in human form either.




> And really, when quoting scripture, shouldn't you quote it in context?
> Isn't that what you always ask us to do?



What did I quote that was out of context?


----------



## Madsnooker (Aug 9, 2006)

Dixie Dawg,

Jesus came as a perfect sacrifice "without sin". Mary concieved him supernaturally from God. He was not born as a sinner that had to be saved. This is really easy to understand if you believe the New Testament. If your goal is to disprove the New Testament (which yours clearly is) than you can argue everything you want. Yes, man is without sin and if Jesus was conceived as all other humans have, than he would have been in the same boat, but he wasn't. Even my 10 year old son can comprehend this.

I do not know why you continue to debate on this forum. You do not believe the New Testament which is the real issue. All these threads debating individual issues are really irrelevant to the real issue. Most of us here do believe the New Testament because of 2 reasons. We believe what it says because it was inspired by God and also we live our Christian lives daily, praying in Jesus name, seeing events unfold that are not coincidence but happen becuase of our Christian walk and on and on. This cuases Faith to grow and grow. Faith and the Bible go hand in hand. This is something you don't seem to comprehend even though it explains it pretty clear throughout the Bible. 

Have you ever wondered why in the begining when you first started posting there were many that participated but now there are only just a few that continue to debate with you? The reason is in the begining you did spur very good conversation and stimulated good discussion and most thought you were ginuinely wanting to understand the truth. Now everyone knows your agenda is disproving the New Testament and that is why you continue with these debates. I commend the few that continue to debate with you becuase I'm sure they care about you, as we all do, and they hope that something just might make you rethink your stance.

Your better off to go to a Jewish site and you will have plenty that will agree with your take. What you do here would be like me going to a Jewish site and debating with them month after month. It is totally pointless. That is why you would probably find that non of us here do just that. It is not becuase we don't care about Jews I hope you understand that. 

If you want to continue to debate here that is your decision and I don't care. I just hope you know you could be doing better things with your time. 

I would be happy to discuss any topics with you except the New Testament.


----------



## rocket rob (Aug 9, 2006)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> Dixie Dawg,
> 
> Jesus came as a perfect sacrifice "without sin". Mary concieved him supernaturally from God. He was not born as a sinner that had to be saved. This is really easy to understand if you believe the New Testament. If your goal is to disprove the New Testament (which yours clearly is) than you can argue everything you want. Yes, man is without sin and if Jesus was conceived as all other humans have, than he would have been in the same boat, but he wasn't. Even my 10 year old son can comprehend this.
> 
> ...


   Well said sir


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 9, 2006)

Madsnooker said:
			
		

> Dixie Dawg,
> 
> Jesus came as a perfect sacrifice "without sin". Mary concieved him supernaturally from God. He was not born as a sinner that had to be saved. This is really easy to understand if you believe the New Testament. If your goal is to disprove the New Testament (which yours clearly is) than you can argue everything you want. Yes, man is without sin and if Jesus was conceived as all other humans have, than he would have been in the same boat, but he wasn't. Even my 10 year old son can comprehend this.
> 
> ...




Who are you directing this to ,Me ?

I doubt it for I have not say anything to the contrary, And I do believe the New Testament 100%, if no one is debating might be do to their lack of understanding.

Yeshua (Jesus) is 100% Man ,conceived Holy as the Angel predicted, in Him was not  found ever a sin.
And By his blood atonement is the only way mankind can be saved, How is that not in the nEw Testament ?


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 9, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Which verses?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes He was Fully Man, as He was made flesh and a little lower than the angels says the word, but that refers to the body and Not his Spirit which is the fully God part.

You have to understand that Christ had a dual nature ,fully Man and God inhabiting the Body which he himself prepared with no sin.


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## 270win (Aug 9, 2006)

Hawkeye-
He was addressing Dixie Dawg.

Folks I have to say this.  You and I may disagree with her conclusions in many areas of scripture.  But quite honestly, her questions make me dig into the sceiptures.  This has been a great asset to me because it only serves to deepen my faith in Christ.  But my goal in continuing to debate or discuss the Bible and my faith with her is also to help her come to a saving faith in Christ.  Jesus NEVER gets tired of cleaning up our messes every day.....  The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.  

I for one appreciate her contributions to these threads because God has used her to help me be a stronger follower of Christ.  If her comments cause anyone to doubt or have questions they should receive that as an indication that they need to anchor themselves more firmly in the Word.

This is directed an nobody in particular.  Just my .02 cents worth.....

Be blessed,
270


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## Madsnooker (Aug 9, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Who are you directing this to ,Me ?
> 
> I doubt it for I have not say anything to the contrary, And I do believe the New Testament 100%, if no one is debating might be do to their lack of understanding.
> 
> ...



It is not directed at you. Not sure how you thought it might have been. It starts with Dixie Dawg and is very direct.

I'm not sure how long you have debated with Dixie but the lack of reply's is not because of lack of understanding I can assure you.

To answer your last question; "how is that not in the New Testament", I don't think anyone is debating that. Dixie just plain doesn't believe the New Testament and this topic is just one of the examples she is trying to use to disprove it. Just do a search on Dixie dawg and then start reading then you will see the basis of my last reply. You better be ready for tons of reading though.


----------



## Madsnooker (Aug 9, 2006)

270win said:
			
		

> Hawkeye-
> He was addressing Dixie Dawg.
> 
> Folks I have to say this.  You and I may disagree with her conclusions in many areas of scripture.  But quite honestly, her questions make me dig into the sceiptures.  This has been a great asset to me because it only serves to deepen my faith in Christ.  But my goal in continuing to debate or discuss the Bible and my faith with her is also to help her come to a saving faith in Christ.  Jesus NEVER gets tired of cleaning up our messes every day.....  The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
> ...



270,

I completly understand and that is why I commended folks like you that continue to reason with Her in hopes that just maybe you reach Her.


----------



## Hawkeye (Aug 9, 2006)

Well consider this, if eveyone agreed in everything, then there wouldn't be a reason to have a discussion forum.
As 270 said it served him to dig into the word.

we should not dismiss anyone's comments until we research it ourselves and see if it adheres to the word.
If it doesn't, then it is our duty to rebuke in love and not in contempt.
shalom


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 9, 2006)

Hawkeye...

concern, not contempt


----------



## redwards (Aug 9, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> > Originally Posted by redwards
> > If you are going to try to quote me, at least give me the respect to quote me exactly. I don't recall typing 'fully man'. I recall typing 'fully human'.
> 
> 
> ...


 











1. "...not sure what your point is?" ( Your question)(My response)
My point is...by changing 'human' to 'man' you (in my opinion) made a presupposition (defined below) that 'man' has the same connotative meaning to me as it does to you. When, in fact, the two words (human & man) do not necessarily mean the same thing. That is exactly why I used 'human' instead of 'man'. For you see, in today's culture, 'man' may carry several different connotations (see guote: "Gender: Sexist Language and Assumption" below.
And even beyond that, I wanted to make certain that any reader of my post clearly understood that Jesus came in human form as a substitutionary blood sacrifice for all humankind (man and woman), not just a man, or men. For some reader of the post may have presupposed that I was implying that Jesus came only for (male) man and not (male & female) mankind.









​2. "Are not all men and women HUMANS???" (Your question)(My response)
I suppose so, although we do not always act like it.









​3. "Are not all humans MEN and WOMEN?" (Your Question)(My response)
No, not by any means. They are either, or, but not both. 
Although some may like to be what they are not.
(But then there I go presupposing that I know what you mean, don't I!)










​4. "Do you believe in aliens?" (Your question)(My response)
Depends. Give me your definition of 'aliens' and I'll get back to ya!










​


> What is a presupposition?
> Definition
> A presupposition is background belief, relating to an utterance, that
> 
> ...





> 5. Gender: Sexist Language and Assumptions
> 
> § 22. man
> Traditionally, many writers have used man and certain compounds derived from it to designate any or all members of the human race regardless of sex. This practice has the strength of history on its side. In Old English the principal sense of man meant “a human being"; the words wer and wyf (or woepman and wifman) were used to refer to “a male human being” and “a female human being” respectively. But in Middle English man displaced wer as the term for “a male human being,” while wyfman (the word that evolved into present-day woman) was retained for “a female human being.” Despite this change, man continued to carry its original sense of “a human being” as well, and so the result is an asymmetrical arrangement that many criticize as sexist: man can stand for all people, but woman cannot. Because of a growing belief that man and words formed from it are not inclusive of women, more and more writers are showing an unwillingness to use the word man in its sense of “a human being” or men in its sense of “members of the human race.”
> ...





			
				Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> > Originally Posted by redwards
> > And true, no 'man' is without sin. But it is Truth that, 'God in human form', Jesus was totally without sin.
> > Heb. 4:15
> 
> ...


There you go presupposing again.
I am not about trying to change what you said (or wrote). I am only about taking a stand for The Savior of this world! Namely Jesus Christ! I believe it because God's Word says it. It is not because of myself that I believe it. It is that God's Word states it, Holy Spirit has revealed it, and I accept it. 
End of discussion!


			
				Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> > Originally Posted by redwards
> > And really, when quoting scripture, shouldn't you quote it in context?
> > Isn't that what you always ask us to do?
> 
> ...


Both (in my opinion).
1 Kings 8:46 is one verse of the complete context of 1 Kings 8:22-53.
2 Chronicles is one verse of the complete context of 2 Chronicles 6:12-42
I feel certain you have read them in their entirety, but I think each of these verses are a small part of a prayer that King Solomon is praying for the Children of Israel at the dedication of the temple. 
Am I totally off base?


			
				270win said:
			
		

> Folks I have to say this. You and I may disagree with her conclusions in many areas of scripture. But quite honestly, her questions make me dig into the sceiptures. This has been a great asset to me because it only serves to deepen my faith in Christ. But my goal in continuing to debate or discuss the Bible and my faith with her is also to help her come to a saving faith in Christ. Jesus NEVER gets tired of cleaning up our messes every day..... The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control.
> 
> I for one appreciate her contributions to these threads because God has used her to help me be a stronger follower of Christ. If her comments cause anyone to doubt or have questions they should receive that as an indication that they need to anchor themselves more firmly in the Word.
> 
> ...


I agree 270. And I have acknowledged to her in previous posts that I thank God for using her to cause me to dig deeper and deeper into His Word.
So, again. Dixie Dawg    for allowing God to use you in revealing to me and others more and more of the Truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior. Namely that He suffered, bled, died and arose from the dead (Hallelujah, and Amen!!!) that we might be reconciled to God and our sins wiped away!!


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## SBG (Aug 9, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> If it doesn't, then it is our duty to rebuke in love
> shalom



To a certain point...and only the Holy Spirit can tell you what that point is.

Mark 6:11
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.


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## Madsnooker (Aug 9, 2006)

SBG said:
			
		

> To a certain point...and only the Holy Spirit can tell you what that point is.
> 
> Mark 6:11
> And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear you, when ye depart thence, shake off the dust under your feet for a testimony against them. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.



That is correct. That is why I quite trying to reason with Her along time ago. I hope by my earlier post I didn't come across as not wanting Dixie to post becuase she didn't believe as I. That was not my intention. I just wanted to make sure some that have not seen all her post were aware of her stance and agenda. It's one thing to debate the interpretation of some scripture but when you debate with someone that doesn't believe even the scripture itself it's pointless.


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 9, 2006)

redwards said:
			
		

> 1
> Both (in my opinion).
> 1 Kings 8:46 is one verse of the complete context of 1 Kings 8:22-53.
> 2 Chronicles is one verse of the complete context of 2 Chronicles 6:12-42
> ...




I'm sorry, I truly don't understand how you say that the meaning of that verse changes at all when read in context.  It says there is no man without sin... does that somehow change when you read it in the whole context of the verse?? I don't see it..... ???



> So, again. Dixie Dawg    for allowing God to use you in revealing to me and others more and more of the Truth of the Gospel of our Lord and Savior.



You are welcome!!!  That's why I'm here!!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 9, 2006)

Madsnooker.... I appreciate your post?  

I continue to post on this part of the forum because I enjoy it.  Not because I'm out to convert anyone.  Not because I'm hoping someone can sway my beliefs.  I just enjoy it, period.  Why would I want to go and discuss these things on a Jewish site? It's not as much fun when everyone agrees!!!  

I will say this though... your post implied that I come over here on some sort of mission and my life revolves around it.  Well, that's false.  I come here for a moment or two during the day when I am able.  Although sometimes, as recently, there can be weeks that I am not able to come on here, as I'm sure many of you will have the same restrictions once deer season opens     My life does not revolve around this forum or around the discussion of religion in general.  I have a husband, a daughter, a household and two businesses that I run... this forum is but a small part of my life, although I do get great enjoyment from both it and the people who are a part of it. 

You must admit, things would get awfully boring around here quick if we all agreed on everything!!


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 9, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Yes He was Fully Man, as He was made flesh and a little lower than the angels says the word, but that refers to the body and Not his Spirit which is the fully God part.
> 
> You have to understand that Christ had a dual nature ,fully Man and God inhabiting the Body which he himself prepared with no sin.




Hawkeye, did you have a chance to find those verses you said talked about preparing a body for God?


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## 270win (Aug 9, 2006)

SBG-
That's exactly right.  When God releases you then it's time to move on.  That's when we should say, The Lord bless you, go in peace.

I understand that sometimes it can be frustrating to debate truth with someone that does not agree with your faith.  Especially when they can debate like Dixie.  But that's part of what we are called to do.  The world does not agree with Christianity, it opposes it vehemently.  But the truth will set them free....  The great thing is that it's not up to us who will receive it and who will reject it.  We are simply called to be faithful stewards of the truth.  Yes, we are supposed to defend it too, vigorously...  But if we do that without love we are more annoying than appealing.  

Be blessed,
270


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## StriperAddict (Aug 9, 2006)

*I'll try...*



			
				Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hawkeye, did you have a chance to find those verses you said talked about preparing a body for God?



I've included the whole passage for believers' edification (and, no doubt, Kerri, your ruthless rebuttal)

Heb 10:1-10 (especially vs 5)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 

 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 

10 _By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. _


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## Hawkeye (Aug 9, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hawkeye, did you have a chance to find those verses you said talked about preparing a body for God?



Sorry Dixie, I most have missed the question before ,here you go:

Psalm 139
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.( Here in Hebrew says my soul  knoweth no sin)
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, {yet being unperfect This part is not found in teh original); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.(This correlates the verses that say, christ was the first of all creation and that in all he would be first)

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Then go to Hebrew 10 verse 5-10

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Psa 40:6 

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 
Psa 40:6 

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,Rfereing to the verses above where all his parts were written in a book) to do thy will, O God. 
Psa 40:7 

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 
Psa 40:6 

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 
Psa 40:7 

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.( Jesus Body was prepared by God himself a Holy creation so that it would be acceptable as sacrifice for teh sins of humanity) 

The New Testament says "In Him was never found any sin"

I hope that helps and doesn't confuse any new believer, this is a 6th year seminary Theme.
Shalom


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## 270win (Aug 9, 2006)

*In other words...*

I thought I'd post a different version for those who don't speak the king's english anymore.   

1The law gave us only an unclear picture of the good things coming in the future. The law is not a perfect picture of the real things. The law tells people to offer the same sacrifices every year. The people who come to worship God continue to offer those sacrifices. But the law can never make those people perfect. 2If the law could make people perfect, then those sacrifices would have already stopped. Those people would already be clean from their sins. And they would not still feel guilty for their sins. But the law cannot do that. 3Those people’s sacrifices make them remember their sins every year, 4because it is not possible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5So when Christ came into the world he said: 

“You don’t want sacrifices and offerings, 
but you have prepared a body for me. 
6You are not pleased with the sacrifices of animals killed and burned. 
And you are not pleased with sacrifices to take away sins. 
7Then I said, ‘Here I am, God. 
It is written about me in the book 
of the law. 
I have come to do the things you want.’” 
(Psalm 40:6-8)



   8 Christ first said, “You don’t want sacrifices and offerings. You are not pleased with animals killed and burned or with sacrifices to take away sin.” (These are all sacrifices that the law commands.) 9Then Christ said, “Here I am, Father. I have come to do the things you want.” So God ends that first system of sacrifices and starts His new way. 10Jesus Christ did the things The Father wanted him to do. And because of that, we are made holy through the sacrifice of Christ’s body. Christ made that sacrifice one time for all time. 

That's the way easy to read version.

Hope nobody is wounded over that.  

Be blessed,
270


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## redwards (Aug 10, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, I truly don't understand how you say that the meaning of that verse changes at all when read in context. It says there is no man without sin... does that somehow change when you read it in the whole context of the verse?? I don't see it..... ???


Oh, did I type "that the meaning of that verse changes" in this quote below? 


			
				redwards said:
			
		

> And really, when quoting scripture, shouldn't you quote it in context?
> Isn't that what you always ask us to do?


 
Out of context or not? I'll let you be the judge. Read these definitions for "context" and you decide for yourself. 


> From Answers.com
> WordNet
> The noun '*context'* has 2 meanings:
> Meaning #1: discourse that surrounds a language unit and helps to determine its interpretation
> ...


 


> Romans 7:13 - 8:11
> 
> *The Problem of Sin in Us*
> *13* Therefore, did what is good cause my death?[5] Lit _good become death to me?_ Absolutely not! On the contrary, sin, in order to be recognized as sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that through the commandment sin might become sinful beyond measure.
> ...


I will leave you with this one question though. The God you say you love, and pray to, is He not powerful enough to do as Paul writes that He did in Romans 8:3? 
Do you believe that He did not do as it is written above?
Just a simple 'yes' or 'no' will do.

Romans 7:24 - 8:4 are verses that the Holy Spirit prepared and presented to me last night in a meeting of a "Band of Brothers".
By the way, the complete context of the passages are presented for your pleasure in reading.


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## Madsnooker (Aug 10, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Madsnooker.... I appreciate your post?
> 
> I continue to post on this part of the forum because I enjoy it.  Not because I'm out to convert anyone.  Not because I'm hoping someone can sway my beliefs.  I just enjoy it, period.  Why would I want to go and discuss these things on a Jewish site? It's not as much fun when everyone agrees!!!
> 
> ...



Your right it would be pretty boring for you on a Jewish site. Actually there is a good Jewish Christian site you can go to and somehow I don't think you would be to bored.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 10, 2006)

Well I did invite you all to come and read theology in one of my sites, written from a hebrew perspective.

http://www.therefinersfire.org/index.htm

Or do you all think that Jewishness is wrong ?


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## Spotlite (Aug 10, 2006)

I read some of it,


----------



## StriperAddict (Aug 10, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Well I did invite you all to come and read theology in one of my sites, written from a hebrew perspective.
> 
> http://www.therefinersfire.org/index.htm
> 
> Or do you all think that Jewishness is wrong ?



The Christian faith IS a Jewish faith, first.  Period.

Jesus said "Salvation is of the Jews..."

meaning, there is no taking the Jewish contribution out of the bible and our faith w/o serious consequences.


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## redwards (Aug 10, 2006)

Hawkeye,
I went to the site. In fact, I have used the site before when I was doing some searches. I found something in that case that I was able to use.

Do I think Jewishness is wrong?

Nope, not when The Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is proclaimed to be the Son of God!

But, when He is denied, then I have to disagree.
And I am not stating that you or the site deny who Jesus Christ is.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 10, 2006)

Is a matter of semantics, while the Jews might deny, Jesus as the messiah, it is due to God Blinding them.
But yet the jews are the ones who brought the testimony of Yeshua Ha Masshiach.

God does not blame them nor will he condemned them for such. Rom 11.

But I take issue when someone tells a sister you should go to a Jewish site.
Maybe in a Rabbinical Jewish site she will not find much knowledge ,but certainly in an orthodox Jewish site when can learn much of the Roots of Christianity.
Shalom


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 10, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Psa 40:6




Hawkeye, this is not what the verse in Psalms says.


Psa 40:6  Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required. 

Nothing about preparing a body.

Hawkeye, you were born and raised Jewish... you know it is strictly forbidden by God all throughout the Torah to add or subtract from His word.  The NT 'quotes' the Psalm verse but adds to/changes it.  How is this justified???  

I don't know you very well, I'm not sure if you're new on here or just didn't post much before... but my 'journey' from Christanity started because I was curious as to why Christians, who were supposed to 'do what Jesus would do', did absolutely nothing Jewish.  If Jesus was Jewish, why didn't we celebrate Passover, Hanukkah, etc. etc.?  Why was everything so removed from Judaism? That curiosity and desire for more Jewish roots led me to the Messianics, and from there I started talking with some of the Jewish faith to try and see why they didn't believe in Jesus.  And that's the quick run-down of how I got here LOL!  My point is, I appreciate your understanding of why someone would want more Judaism in their Christianity.  To me, it makes perfect sense.  But I realize it does not appeal to all.

Shalom!


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## Spotlite (Aug 10, 2006)

All this talk about Judaism, Jewish, Christian, what is it all about? I am of the understanding that there is only one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. I am also under the understanding of Galations 1 : 8 & 9.


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## StriperAddict (Aug 10, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> All this talk about Judaism, Jewish, Christian, what is it all about? I am of the understanding that there is only one Lord, one Faith, and one Baptism. I am also under the understanding of Galations 1 : 8 & 9.



I'm suprised you have to ask that question


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## Hawkeye (Aug 10, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Hawkeye, this is not what the verse in Psalms says.
> 
> 
> Psa 40:6  Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
> ...



HUUUM that is found in Hebrews 10, don't know how that got posted that way, I prepared in my Words and the copied and pasted it, something got tangled up in that post, i did have to try 3 times to post for some reason it would not go through.


Hey ! wait a minute I went back and read my own post, first I have not quoted Psalm 40
Here it is again.

Sorry Dixie, I most have missed the question before ,here you go:

Psalm 139
13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
14 I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well.( Here in Hebrew says my soul knoweth no sin)
15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

16 Thine eyes did see my substance, {yet being unperfect This part is not found in teh original); and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.(This correlates the verses that say, christ was the first of all creation and that in all he would be first)

17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

Then go to Hebrew 10 verse 5-10
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: Psa 40:6 

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 
Psa 40:6 

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,Rfereing to the verses above where all his parts were written in a book) to do thy will, O God. 
Psa 40:7 

8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 
Psa 40:6 

9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 
Psa 40:7 

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.( Jesus Body was prepared by God himself a Holy creation so that it would be acceptable as sacrifice for teh sins of humanity) 

The New Testament says "In Him was never found any sin"

I hope that helps and doesn't confuse any new believer, this is a 6th year seminary Theme.
Shalom

Now Note that after quoting Psalm 139 after verse 17 I say "then Go to Hebrews chapter 10

Who are you trying to confuse here and giving me a lecture about changing the word of God, are you in zinck with the discussion, I haven't even quoted what you say i quoted, I quoted Psalm 139 not Psalm 40.
Am beginning to see what the rest are saying, my dear lady be truthful at least to yoursef first.
Shalom


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 10, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Then go to Hebrew 10 verse 5-10
> 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: *Psa 40:6 *
> 
> 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
> ...




Hawkeye, I think you're getting a bit paranoid 

First of all, I am not *trying* to confuse anyone.  I copied AGAIN and pasted AGAIN exactly what YOU posted.  Read what you wrote... after your Hebrew verse 5 does it NOT say Psa 40:6 ????? (highlighted in purple by me to show you where you posted it)
Is this not a reference to where the 'original' prophecy was supposed to have been found??
If not, what is the Psa 40:6 there for????

Even if you HADN'T posted it, (which you DID), that does not change the facts at all.

Hebrews 10:5 says "Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: "

Is this not supposedly a reference to Psalm 40:6 and another 'testimony' of God's plan to come to earth in human form??

My point in what I asked you was... that is NOT what the Psalm says, the NT has changed it to fit Jesus.  Do you not, as a man who was raised as a Jew and knowing what Hashem has said about not changing one jot or tittle of His word, do you not see a problem with that?  That is what I was asking... I was not pointing a finger at YOU... YOU did  not write the NT.  I was asking your take on how it would be acceptable for the NT to change the Psalm, that's all.

And I am always truthful to myself... I am the one person on this entire earth that it does absolutely no good to lie to, because I can't fool myself, even if I wanted to!  

I'm not out to get you, Hawkeye, or anyone else.  I seek only the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me Hashem!  And I thank Him every day that He knows my heart and knows this is true.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 11, 2006)

Oviously what we have is a transliteration problem, that verse is found in Hebrews chapter 10 as it appears in Tthe Hebrew Bookof Psams in teh original language, most english versions omitt this translation, but Paul apparently did not;
The Book of Hebrews
Return to Index


 Hebrews Chapter 10

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 
(Psalm 40 reads the way Paul quotes it in The NT, but has been ommitted in most english bibles)

6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure. 
Psa 40:6 Cross ref.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 
Psa 40:7 
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 
Psa 40:6 


A lot of transliterations ommit verses which show Jesus had a beginning, they wrongfully think that if Jesus has a beginning then he is not co-equal to the father, this is a big error because Jesus had a beginning on this earth as a man, His Spirit is the one that is Eternal like the Father is eternal, so a little manipulation can be found here and there.But not enough to change the message of the Gospel , save By grace through faith.I do not add nor twist God's word< like some people Am beginning to know.
Shalom


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 11, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Oviously what we have is a transliteration problem, that verse is found in Hebrews chapter 10 as it appears in Tthe Hebrew Bookof Psams in teh original language, most english versions omitt this translation, but Paul apparently did not;




Hawkeye, I would like to ask what Hebrew Tanakh you use so that I may confirm this with the Orthodox Jews who I have studied with for the last 4 years.  I believe this statement to be false, and really this is the first time, even with all the debates I have listened to over the years between Christians and Jews, no Christian has ever claimed this before.  My Orthodox Jewish friends ONLY read the scriptures in Hebrew, so I am sure they will have no problem reading whatever version you say you have that has this Psalm reading as Paul wrote it in Hebrews.

It makes ZERO sense to try and say that the English versions omit this verse because it might confuse someone???? Why would they put it in the NT but not in the OT?? That argument is extremely weak... if anything, it would support the testimony of Christians, not harm it.



> A lot of transliterations ommit verses which show Jesus had a beginning, they wrongfully think that if Jesus has a beginning then he is not co-equal to the father, this is a big error because Jesus had a beginning on this earth as a man, His Spirit is the one that is Eternal like the Father is eternal, so a little manipulation can be found here and there.But not enough to change the message of the Gospel , save By grace through faith.I do not add nor twist God's word< like some people Am beginning to know.
> Shalom



Ok, well as long as I understand where you stand on God's word, then I know what to reply to and what not to reply to   Obviously from your statement above, you see nothing wrong with 'manipulating' God's word in order to make Jesus fit.   That's all I needed to know!


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## Hawkeye (Aug 11, 2006)

Oviously you like to argue the word not discuss the word,

If you don't believe there are manipulations in certain transliterations, then show me why the  word repentance in the Nacar Colunga was changed to "penitance".

And why the Name "Lucifer" was used in Ezequiel as to if refering to satan's name, lucifer being a latin word and not Hebrew.

no my lady, I don't manipulate the word, you do.

No one has to manupalate the word to fit Jesus, he is the Author of the word, Or the "Living Torah."


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## Spotlite (Aug 11, 2006)

Too much digging and looking for things that are wrong.........
Sounds like somebody might have some faith issues.


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## Hawkeye (Aug 11, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Too much digging and looking for things that are wrong.........
> Sounds like somebody might have some faith issues.



 

I have faith in the Unadultarated word of God In Hebrew, Arameic and Greek, the only one of transliterations which is closed to the Original is the Old KJV.


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## SBG (Aug 11, 2006)




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## Hawkeye (Aug 11, 2006)




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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 12, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> Oviously you like to argue the word not discuss the word,
> 
> If you don't believe there are manipulations in certain transliterations, then show me why the  word repentance in the Nacar Colunga was changed to "penitance".
> 
> ...



So I suppose you aren't going to say what Tanakh you read that has the verse in Psalms saying the same as your Christian Hebrews?  
Sounds kind of fishy to me.  No pun intended.


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 12, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> Too much digging and looking for things that are wrong.........
> Sounds like somebody might have some faith issues.




Is it 'digging and looking for things that are wrong" when it is glaringly obvious that a verse has been changed in order to fit the Christian agenda?  

What if I told you that Jesus advocates suicide and I can prove it from the New Testament scriptures?  
You wouldn't have a problem with that, would you?


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## rocket rob (Aug 12, 2006)

I Know nothing of the Jews faith but i have been told that the Jews do not belive Jesue has come yet, that he would not have come from the poor. Is this right? I fell over when i heard this.


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## rocket rob (Aug 12, 2006)

This is something I found pertaining to the fact that God and Jesus are one.

a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!) 

b) John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...." The extra words are supplied by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to be God. 

c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (Again, in your Bible the editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically correct. The Greek just says, "I AM.")


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## rocket rob (Aug 12, 2006)

Take a look at this too

John 5:1-47 

After this there was a feast of the Jews, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 

Now there is in Jerusalem by the Sheep Gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew, Bethesda, having five porches. 

In these lay a great multitude of sick people, blind, lame, paralyzed, waiting for the moving of the water. 

For an angel went down at a certain time into the pool and stirred up the water; then whoever stepped in first, after the stirring of the water, was made well of whatever disease he had. 

Now a certain man was there who had an infirmity thirty-eight years. 

When Jesus saw him lying there, and knew that he already had been in that condition a long time, He said to him, "Do you want to be made well?" 

The sick man answered Him, "Sir, I have no man to put me into the pool when the water is stirred up; but while I am coming, another steps down before me." 

Jesus said to him, "Rise, take up your bed and walk." 

And immediately the man was made well, took up his bed, and walked. And that day was the Sabbath. 

The Jews therefore said to him who was cured, "It is the Sabbath; it is not lawful for you to carry your bed." 

He answered them, "He who made me well said to me, 'Take up your bed and walk.'" 

Then they asked him, "Who is the Man who said to you, 'Take up your bed and walk'?" 

But the one who was healed did not know who it was, for Jesus had withdrawn, a multitude being in that place. 

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple, and said to him, "See, you have been made well. Sin no more, lest a worse thing come upon you." 

The man departed and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well. 

For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath. 

But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." 

Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. 

Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 

"For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. 

"For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. 

"For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, 

"that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. 

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 

"Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 

"and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man. 

"Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 

"and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. 

"I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me. 

"If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 

"There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true. 

"You have sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth. 

"Yet I do not receive testimony from man, but I say these things that you may be saved. 

"He was the burning and shining lamp, and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light. 

"But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish-- the very works that I do-- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 

"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 

"But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 

"You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 

"But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 

"I do not receive honor from men. 

"But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 

"I have come in My Father's name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 

"How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 

"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you-- Moses, in whom you trust. 

"For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 

"But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?"


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## Hawkeye (Aug 12, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> So I suppose you aren't going to say what Tanakh you read that has the verse in Psalms saying the same as your Christian Hebrews?
> Sounds kind of fishy to me.  No pun intended.



Well not that it will matter to you, I don't think you can read these anyways ,but if you have copies in the 
Syr., Vulg., and the Targ., you will see the verse intact.

If I post them in Farsi and Targ could you read it ? 

Other Testimony besides mine:

APPENDIX I 2

Chapter 10:5. But a body hast thou prepared me. The words in the Psalm are, "Mine ears hast thou opened," 40:6; or more literally, "Ears hast thou opened for me." Calvin seems to have discarded the idea of an allusion to the boring of the ear in sign of servitude. The two verbs are certainly different. He evidently refers to Isaiah 50:5, "The Lord hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious;" which clearly applies to Christ. He therefore makes the meaning of the phrase to be, "Thou hast made me teachable and obedient." This view has been adopted by Merrick, Bishop Horne, and Stuart. But how to make the words, "a body hast thou prepared for me," to bear an analogous meaning, does not very clearly appear. Bishop Horne gives this version, "Thou hast prepared" or fitted "my body," that is, to be obedient and to do thy will.

Mede conceived that the allusion is to the practice of boring the ear in token of servitude, mentioned in Exodus 21:6; and that as that practice was unknown to the Greeks, the Seventy rendered the words in conformity with what they did as to their slaves; which was, to set a mark on the body; "Thou hast fitted (or adapted) a body for me;" that is, that I might be thy servant. That Christ assumed "the form of a servant," is expressly declared in Philippians 2:7. There is in this case an agreement as to meaning; but the difficulty is: as to the verb hrk which does not mean to bore or to perforate, but to dig, to hollow out, and in a secondary sense, to form or to make a thing, such as a well, a pit, a grave, or a cave. As to "ears" instead of an "ear," as in Exodus 21:6, that might be accounted for by saying, that the object was to shew the entire willingness of Christ to become a servant.

These have been the two ways proposed to reconcile the passages as they now stand. There are no different readings in Hebrew, nor in the Sept., nor in this Epistle. Proposals have therefore been made as to a change in the texts on the supposition of typographical mistakes.

Some, as Grotius, Hammond, and Dr. Owen, have proposed wjti>a, ears, instead of sw~ma, body, in the Sept. When did this change take place? Before or after the Apostle's time? If before, then the Apostle adopted a false reading; if after, then the same mistake must have been made in the Sept. and in this Epistle; which is not credible.

Others have supposed a mistake in the Hebrew text; and this conjecture has been approved by Kennicott, Doddridge, Bishop lowth, Adam Clarke, and Pye Smith. It is no objection to say that the Syr., Vulg., and the Targ., confirm the present reading; for the mistake might have been made long before any of these were in existence. Such a change might indeed have been made in the first ages of Christianity, and might have been made intentionally, through a wish to obscure the testimony of Scripture respecting Christ.

The words are supposed to have been hwg za instead of Mynza, as the text now is. There would in this case be a literal agreement; the passage in the Psalm might then be thus rendered, --

6. "Sacrifice and offering thou hast not delighted in, Then a body hast thou formed for me; Burntpinkieoffering and sinpinkieoffering thou hast not required,

7. Then I said, Behold, I am coming." --

There is here a consistency throughout. "Behold, I am coming," that is, in the body designed for him. And then the Apostle says, "When coming into the world, he saith," etc., clearly referring to our Saviors incarnation. And this "body" is afterwards expressly mentioned in verse 10, in opposition to sacrifices. It is true that in his argument in verse 9, he dwells on the words, "I come;" but then his coming was in the body prepared for him. John Calvin, 1509-1564


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## Hawkeye (Aug 12, 2006)

I hope this will take as I arranged it, it will show the septuagin and masoteric side by side, thus showing the error in the verse in the masoteric tranliteration.


Psalm 40.6-8 


Septuagint



qusian kai prosforan ouk hqelhsaV, 
swma de kathrtisw moi: 
olokautwma kai peri amartiaV  
ouk hthsaV. 
tote eipon, idou hkw: 
en kefalidi bibliou gegraptai peri emou, 
tou poihsai to qelhma sou o qeoV 
mou hboulhqhn, 
kai ton nomon sou em mesw thV kardiaV mou

 New Testament - Hebrews 10.5-7
Dio eisercomenoV eiV ton kosmon legei: 
qusian kai prosfaran ouk hqelhsaV, 
swma de kathrtisw moi: 
olokautwmata kai peri amartiaV 
ouk eudokhsaV. 
tote eipon:  idou hkw, 
en kefalidi bibliou gegraptai peri emou, 
tou poihsai o qeoV to qelhma sou 





Septuagint
Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not; but a body hast thou prepared me:  whole-burnt-offering and sacrifice for sin thou didst not require.  Then I said, Behold, I come:  in the volume of the book it is written concerning me, I desired to do thy will, O my God, and thy law in the midst of mine heart

 New Testament
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, But a body didst thou prepare for me; In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hadst no pleasure:  Then I said, Lo, I am come (In the roll of the book it is written of me) To do thy will, O God 
 Masoretic Text
Sacrifice and offering thou hast no delight in; Mine ears hast thou opened:  Burnt-offerings and sin- 
offering hast thou not required.  Then I said, Lo, I am come; In the roll of the book it is written of me; I delight to do thy will, O my God; Yea, thy law is within my heart. 



Comments:  The NT author has modified the LXX only slightly in this quotation.  The MT omits the thought of the incarnation entirely, replacing “but a body hast thou prepared for me” with “mine ears hast thou opened.”  

Sorry I cannot get it to post side by side, but you can see the verse intact in the Septuagin.

Perhaps you should get yourself lessons in latin vulgate ,hebrew and Syrian.


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## Spotlite (Aug 14, 2006)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Is it 'digging and looking for things that are wrong" when it is glaringly obvious that a verse has been changed in order to fit the Christian agenda?
> 
> What if I told you that Jesus advocates suicide and I can prove it from the New Testament scriptures?
> You wouldn't have a problem with that, would you?


I would say your completely lost and of the antichrist 
Kerri that goes against the teachings of Jesus, the Jews may have turned their back on Jesus, but not me


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## Hawkeye (Aug 15, 2006)

I guess she is still checking with her ultra orthodox friends, to see if the Torah says what Paul said ?,LOL


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## 270win (Aug 15, 2006)

funny....


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 24, 2006)

Hawkeye said:
			
		

> I guess she is still checking with her ultra orthodox friends, to see if the Torah says what Paul said ?,LOL




Actually, I checked with multiple sources, both Christian and Jewish, and both say that you are wrong.  

See, I'm not interested in merely proving Christianity to be false.  I'm only interested in the truth.  If I only wanted to prove it false, I would only go to sources I knew would do this. But that's not my goal, and never has been.  If the verse actually said what you claim it does, then I want to know what it says, not just what I "want" it to say.  But, it doesn't say what you claim. And you yourself admitted to this fact.

Because this board does not support the Hebrew language, this is a screen shot of the actual literal translation of the Psalm 40:6  (40:7 in the Hebrew scriptures).







Nothing there at all about preparing a body for anyone. But then, you knew this already... didn't you? 



			
				hawkeye said:
			
		

> Chapter 10:5. But a body hast thou prepared me. The words in the Psalm are, "Mine ears hast thou opened," 40:6; or more literally, "Ears hast thou opened for me."



Now, you can interpret that any way you want to, but the FACT is, the Psalm does NOT say what the NT quotes it as.  And you knew this.



			
				hawkeye said:
			
		

> Perhaps you should get yourself lessons in latin vulgate ,hebrew and Syrian.



Perhaps you should get yourself lessons in ethics.  You are the most "dangerous" kind of "Christian", because you are not only willing, but eager to take your 'knowledge' and use it to mislead people into believing what you want them to believe.  You toss out your jargon of the languages you know, making it seem like that makes you some sort of authority on Hebrew or the bible in general... but you are not honest with your information.  What good is all of your 'knowledge' if you use it to promote a lie?

I think sometimes that people on here forget that I *did* used to be a Christian (even if they don't believe I was a *real* Christian).  When I believed, I believed with everything I had in me, and was just as certain of it's validity as I am now of it being false.  I debated just as hard on the side of Christianity (actually, probably harder because I believed people would go to pinkiepinkiepinkiepinkie if they didn't believe in Jesus) as I do now against it.  I have numerous resources at my disposal and don't hesitate to use them.  Regardless of what you seem to think of my intellectual capabilities, I am not stupid.  I  may not know all of the languages you do, but I am more than capable of looking them up.  I know people and resources on both sides of the religious debate that I am able to go to and ask, who I know WILL be honest about what the Tanakh says because they value and respect God's demand that not one word of His word be changed.   Interpretation of a verse is one thing, but to actually say that the verse literally says something that it doesn't is downright deceitful.

Now, you can talk down to and ridicule me all you want to, bragging about the languages you claim to know... but your arrogance cannot hide your deceit.

And rest assured that any time you try to use your self-professed knowledge to mislead others about the 'literal translation' of the scriptures, I WILL call you out on it.


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## Dixie Dawg (Aug 24, 2006)

Spotlite said:
			
		

> I would say your completely lost and of the antichrist
> Kerri that goes against the teachings of Jesus, the Jews may have turned their back on Jesus, but not me







Mat 27:5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 

Luk 10:37 Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise. 

See what can happen when you take verses out of their context?    This is no different than Christianity taking Isaiah 7:14 out of it's context to show a 'virgin birth', which God never promoted. Or human sacrifice. Or vicarious atonement. All of these things God spoke against, yet Christianity has stripped verses from the Tanakh and misused them to support their belief.  I suppose if it's ok for Christians to do it, then that you won't have a problem with the above verses supporting my theory, right?


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