# Chris man yall BETTER be right.



## LanceColeman (Jul 21, 2010)

Ok Bro,

I took what you told me, called Rod Jenkins and took what he told me, then Called Bill Howland and took what he told me.

The pluses. 3 under is NOT agrivating my middle finger and the swelling is actually starting to go down. Bill and I talked about finger tension, tillers and where to apply pressure on the riser (grip) and believe it or not I have ALMOST got shooting  3under as quiet as shooting split with that.

Took what Rod told me on anchoring for 3 under and consistancy is there.(Gotta call him back because my stance has opened up or something. I'm getting string contact issues I've never had before). Took what you told me on form and everything has came together, to an extent.

I'm almost at the habit breaking stage (38days) and passed habit forming stage (30 days).

But here's my issue... I'm still waiting on my brain to recalculate! There's like TWO holes in my target... one where it's supposed to be.. and one 6" below that. My head has still not got the subliminal message completely atuned yet. It's like the first 10 minutes to half an hour of shooting puts them where they are supposed ot be, then all a sudden there's a lapse or something and BAM there's that low arrow... thats the problem............ 15 out of the next 20 will go straight in the hole 6" low. It's like once I lapse and drop one low?? They all go low from then  on out.

I mean groups are tighter now than they were when I shot competitively.... but maaaaan...... seasons gettin close!! And if I shoot under big boy openin mornin I'm gonna whip all three of ya!

OH! And like I said I am right in between the time frame it takes for your brain to form a habit and to break a habit. I tried to shoot split yesterday and shot the trampoline..... I  missed the whole dadgum target.


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## ChrisSpikes (Jul 21, 2010)

Can you lower your nock set anymore?  

What type material do you have on the shelf?


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## robert carter (Jul 21, 2010)

I put hard leather on the shelf using the logic of the Welch side plate thinking and it actually raised the arrow  impact some.RC


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## Barry Duggan (Jul 21, 2010)

An uncalculated mind is a terrible terrible thing.


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## Al33 (Jul 22, 2010)

After shooting split for about half a century and after hand surgery to release a trick middle finger I also went to three under. Like you, I was putting arrows in the dirt at first and when I tried split again the arrows would fly high and often over the target. I missed a nice buck in Mo. because I forgot to shoot 3 under and automatically went to split not even thinking about it. After that I made my tabs without a split so I could not do it again. If you shoot with gloves tape your index finger to your middle finger and you will not make the same mistake I did in Mo..

Good luck, I have no doubt 3 under will become second nature to you in no time.


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## robert carter (Jul 22, 2010)

I did the same thing on a pig at fort stewart last year Al when I was tinkering with three under. Blamed it on Chris...could`nt have been my fault .RC


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## LanceColeman (Jul 22, 2010)

I've put both bows I've converted for 3 under on elevated rests. I'm thinking of returning the prototype brack back to the shelf.

I'll see about dropping the nock next time I'm shooting. Arrow flight is pretty darn clean where I have it right now so I never thought of lowering it more.

Al,

thats my main reason for switching..... it's change a pressure situation or risk facing surgery. I work with my hands and really don't want to have them cut on.


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## Hunting 4 Him (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok guys I have to ask, whats the advantage of shooting three under?

Ward


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## Al33 (Jul 22, 2010)

Hunting 4 Him said:


> Ok guys I have to ask, whats the advantage of shooting three under?
> 
> Ward



For me it was  "need to" because of finger and hand problems. Like Lance, I work with my hands ALOT and at my age I am paying the price with Dupretrens cysts and trigger fingers. By going to three under versus split finger shooting I am able to hold the draw weight with a better distribution of pressure on all three fingers. When I shot split my middle finger carried most of the weight and I ended up with a trick finger because of it.

Another advantage for many is that it brings the arrow up closer to the eye which often results in better shooting.


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## ChrisSpikes (Jul 22, 2010)

Hunting 4 Him said:


> Ok guys I have to ask, whats the advantage of shooting three under?
> 
> Ward



IMO, 3 under is more forgiving on a bad release.  

With split, shaft flex is often induced at full draw through pressure exerted by the index finger.

And the biggest advantage, in my opinion, is that with 3 under the arrow is closer to the eye, allowing for more consistent subconscious alignment.


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## ChrisSpikes (Jul 22, 2010)

Sorry Al, didn't mean to post right on top of you!


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## fountain (Jul 22, 2010)

u didnt call me

shoot your first arrows that are good and when the first goes bad, quit and try again tomorrow.  your brain will recalculate..it just may take a smidge longer, but dont give up on 3 under..maybe you should try a clicker


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## Al33 (Jul 22, 2010)

ChrisSpikes said:


> Sorry Al, didn't mean to post right on top of you!



Don't sweat that Chris! You noted a few points I failed to note, good job!!!


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## LanceColeman (Jul 22, 2010)

fountain said:


> u didnt call me



I don't have yer number.







fountain said:


> ..maybe you should try a clicker



Somebody reach over there and smack draw check boy betwixed the ears. I think I'm already drawing further than I was and thats whats causing my stance to open up.

Why I am switching;
There's these two grooves that run across the top of your knuckle joint..... inside those grooves run a pair of tendons (it's like there alignment track) Back when I shot competitively I woke up one morning with a middle finger bigger around than my thumb. According to the docs, I have literally wore the center bump between the grooves completely off. What this does is when I catch hard tension wrong those tendons will "jump track" and rub not only against each other but also against other stuff they aint supposed to.

I don't really feel it when it happens.. there's not like a red flag or sharp pain or anything to let me know. But several hours later the dull pain will start because it's been agrivated. And by the next morning she's swole up as big as my thumb and NOT bendable in that joint. and it usually takes several days for it to go back down and become normal again. It's been bothering me alot more lately (more I shoot more chance of agrivating it) So about a month ago I was shooting and it was still on the tender side.. just on a whim one I put all three fingers beneath the nock..... it didn't hurt.. I ran about 50 arrows through one of my heavier bows and no trouble... the next morning?? still no issues. so I decided to research it a bit, contact some people I knew shot that way.. and give it a wirl.


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## fountain (Jul 22, 2010)

Here ya go coleman..I'm gonna break it down in reality for ya

Rule 1:  there are no rules
Rule 2: find a routine throught practice.  Get a bag target, drag it inside and shoot from the couch at bout 10 yards and get the funfdamentals sorted out then take it outside.

I tried advice and video after video..all I got was confused and aggrevated with mywelf.  What works for others is a place to start but ya gotta refine it some to fit you..cause all people ain't made the same.  We have different structural features that may make a differre in anchoring and such


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## fountain (Jul 22, 2010)

Clicker will fix that..or lay off the roids a cycle or two and weaken up


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## LanceColeman (Jul 22, 2010)

TJ,

30yrs behind a bow makes a man extremely stubborn and set in particular ways. Worse than that when you shoot as much by yourself as I do you pick up bad habits and don't even realize them. Case in point 5yrs ago I started snap shooting. Didn't realize it until it was too late. And then did not care because I was STILL killing deer. May not be hitting the hair I was aiming at, but 2" is stilla  dead deer. A simple few days shootin bottles and pine cones with Chris and Carter shooting beside me and all a sudden I started holding longer.... nothing more than the interaction and sublimnal notice of it. With thsi new form I am working on now I will let down before I snap one off.

I don't do "videos" At the risk of sounding arrogant Out of all the ones I've watched?? exactly THREE had people in them that shot far enough superior to me for me to even stop long enough to consider what they were talking about. 

I "listen" to shooters, killers and those with infinate detail of the inner workings which if every one understood better would make them a better shot.

Case in Point. Hot Rod. Me and Rod get along real good, Rod's a heckuva shot. I'll take Rods advice on shooting even though we do not shoot the same style, form or way. Chris and Carter... better killers you'll never find.. and you seen both of them shoot.. BOTH are pretty much world class. Bill Howland. Bowyer to what I consider the finest shooting wooden recurve out there. He knows tillers and grips and bows 100 times over what ya average everyday bow shooter does (and thats how I got the bows quiet). And Tom Lagatol because Tom and I have very simular pasts in both careers and weaponry. Tom is also a Student of Lenny Cardinel which means he's an extemely fine shot.

And believe it or not... I've saw you shoot...... even though ya still wet behind ya ears I would actually take advice on shooting from you.. if yad take that clicky thingy off ya bow

Sometimes the largest frustrations are caused by the simplest of infractions. 

YA NAILED IT SPIKES.

I went out today and was thinkin "lower my nockin point?? is he nutts?? the bows tuned flawless!. hey wait a minute. whats up with my nock??

I use a roll over draw. I also use a tie on double nock system. I do a crisscross over hand tie on, because these can be screwed or unscrewed up and down the string to adjust the nocking point.

I use the roll over because after several talks with Bill. I've come to the conclusion that although 95% of the 3 under shooters out there swear by even tension with all 3 fingers?? If you want the bow quieter , want a crisper release and want LESS pressure on an injured finger?? even tension is NOT what you should go for. And higher tension amounts pressed on the index is easier achieved with a roll over draw (as is proper back tension WITHOUT a drawcheck).

BUUUUT. after about 30-40 arrows you tend to get a little more sloppy with that draw. especially with sweaty hands. What had happened was once tired I was placing an undue amount of tension on the nock and over time had literally pushed the top nocking point up. Where normally there's not supposed to be juuuust enough room in between those two nocks for a tiny lil carbon nock to fit?? there was almost a 1/2" gap in between them. When I was fresh and pulling more straight back?? no issue. but as I got tired and added english to the roll over draw?? I was pushing the arrow nock up against the top string nock giving me extremely too high a nocking point. I had actually done this to both my Hoyt and my brack (something I'll hafta keep my eye on)

I twisted it back down this evening and ran a volley of 50 arrows in 5 arrow groups from 23yds. I shot four "8s", eighteen "12s" everything else was "10s" no wounds. I can definately live with that. "


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## ChrisSpikes (Jul 22, 2010)

What do I win?.........


I had the same problem with my tied on nocking point.  After shooting it for a while, mine would start to wear......my nock would smash it and start to ride up on the now-flattened part of the nocking point.  Didn't do it the same everytime, so I got inconsistencies.  I 've since started using a brass set for the top point, and still serve the bottom one on.


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## robert carter (Jul 22, 2010)

I had some clickers once. One was a clothes pin on the spokes of my bike when I was a kid. Made a heck of a racket and the other I still have on my Zebco 33...it`ll click when a fish runs..RC


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## fountain (Jul 22, 2010)

We know ya got it bud, and standbehind ya in yor search for the new you.  There are several things mentioned above hat I ralte to in my shooting.  The uneven part with my fingers for one..the bottom finger is jujst there with the middle fnger geting molst of the use..but don't drop that bottom finger and go two under!  I did and it felt awesome but I would cut my face everything I shot. Does my clicker make me a bad person?!  Maybe one day I can find a way to do without it..


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## LanceColeman (Jul 22, 2010)

TJ,

I can tell that from your avatar that you place most of your pressure on the top finger. and yea I gotta skint place on my nose for trying to completely remove the bottom finger myself (lol)

Carter.. he he he..... I got them clickers.. and a playin card duct taped to my fender as well!

I think I may go to the top one brass as well Chris...... would keep me from havin ta watch it.


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## Dennis (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok guys how important is the second lower nock ? Is it just as important while shooting split finger?


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## hogdgz (Jul 22, 2010)

I have went to 2 nocks on all my bows, a brass on top and i tie one one the bottom. Made a big difference for me cause i tend to put alot of "heal" pressure on the arrow and the arrow would slide down the string  a little and i would get some flyers, after I tried this I started getting better arrow flight and less flyers.


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## Barry Duggan (Jul 22, 2010)

TJ, knock your ring fingernail off, with a hammer, and you can go back to shooting two under.


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## SOS (Jul 22, 2010)

Hunting4Him,

For hunting distance shots - 20ish yards - 3 under make for a closer to the line of sight hold...i.e. the arrow is closer to your eye so you can almost gun barrel the shot.  Many top notch trad shooters do this, many top notch hunters as well.  I don't think 3 under is as clean of a release, neither do Olympic archers at long ranges.  Split distributes pressure on both sides of the nock so the string sit more squarely against the arrow.  3 under has the nock in the angled part of the string, giving a downward force on the arrow, thus the typical need to raise your nocking point.  

I drew a diagram a few years ago showing the difference...wish I could remember where I filed it.

So, it is a balance of an easy sight picture versus a better release.  Something you have to try to see what works for you.  IMHO, you need to shoot a month or more with either to program your brain.  Steve


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## fountain (Jul 22, 2010)

I have a scar on my face now from trying to shoot two under.  Everytime I shot I would come back in looking like I had been in a cage with lance.  I had blood everywhere.  

Y'all keep picking on my lil clickers....


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## SOS (Jul 22, 2010)

Oh, and to really screw things up, I'm trying to shoot 2 over.....no kidding.  Since having to shoot left handed while being right eye dominant (due to recent injury), I've been playing with a different release to keep the forefinger anchor, but move the arrow closer to my right eye.  How's that for something different?


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## Barry Duggan (Jul 22, 2010)

Nothing wrong with a pacifier...I mean clicker. Even Lance prolly had one until he was like one and a half..


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## robert carter (Jul 22, 2010)

We picking cause we like you bud...clickity clack flip flap ...ching..RC


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## Jake Allen (Jul 22, 2010)

TJ, were no one picking on you when you won that bow in Alabama last month.
That was something to watch bud!


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## LanceColeman (Jul 22, 2010)

SOS,

Gonna hafta disagree widja there ol buddy. 90% of a bows wieght shooting "olympic style split" is distributed on the middle finger (this is how I used to hold and how I trashed mine) There's literally no more pressure on the index than there is on the ring holding the way olympic shooters do.

No even pressure split??: yes by all means it distributes it better.

But it's really not a matter of the string angle as much as it is the pressure being applied to where and when.

The main issue I always had with anyone that shot 3 under was you'r literally taking a custom bow a bowyer designed and throwing it entirely out of balance by placing undue pressure on one limb and not enough on the other therefore throwing the entire bow out of sync.

I discussed this with Bill....And told Bill this is why they so noisey..... Bill says......"Yes it is But by how far??" I said how far from what ?? and he says......

 You've went from two below to three below.. How thick is your finger?? "

Then the centerline tranfer of balance talk got deep. Long story shortened up a bit, by inducing a bit more pressure on the upper finger and not much of any on the ring?? The angle is adjusted back closer to the balance point...... by shooting from an elevated rest instead of off the shelf I have raised my nocking point and the arrows rest line almost an inch, hence bringing less tension on the lower limb and a bit more back up on the upper. By allowing the bow to settle in web of thumb and forefinger and removing all heeling tendancies on lower hand tension I've stopped counterlevering the bow and again removed tesnion from the lower limb and distributed it back closer to where it was supposed to be.

All this means that *WHEN* I do it right?? the bow shows no tuning issues and the release and flight of the arrow is clean..... clean enough for the bow to ALMOST be as quiet as it is when I shoot it split finger.

NOISE is a dead give away of something not bein done right.


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## Al33 (Jul 23, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> SOS,
> The main issue I always had with anyone that shot 3 under was you'r literally taking a custom bow a bowyer designed and throwing it entirely out of balance by placing undue pressure on one limb and not enough on the other therefore throwing the entire bow out of sync.
> 
> ...... by shooting from an elevated rest instead of off the shelf I have raised my nocking point and the arrows rest line almost an inch, hence bringing less tension on the lower limb and a bit more back up on the upper.
> ...



Really good stuff Lance I had not seriously considered before. I have been shooting bows for over 50 years and still learn something new just about every time I start reading here in this forum. I also re-learn things I knew but had forgotten about.

Can one tell if a bow was tillered for three under versus split just by looking at it? Seems I recall something about the string height being less on the lower limb for a 3 under tiller than one that was tillered for split. Is that correct?


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## Hunting 4 Him (Jul 23, 2010)

SOS
thanks for the info.  I think I will stay with the split finger technique for now since I am just getting back into shooting traditional.  My mind can only handle so many changes at once.  I am not really shooting bad but sometimes inconsistant.


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## Apex Predator (Jul 23, 2010)

You may have a few flyers Ward, but a few out of hundreds ain't bad!  You wore out that new glove yet?


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## Hunting 4 Him (Jul 23, 2010)

No Marty, I haven't worn it out but I am well on my way to getting it broke in.  I'm liking it though.


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## fountain (Jul 23, 2010)

mr al, i cant tell a difference in one tillered split and one not.  i had big jim build my first bow for 3 under and my new one for split.  the one tillered split shoots better to me even though i shoot it three under.


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## robert carter (Jul 23, 2010)

Because you shoot with a high elbow. Nothing wrong just different than most.RC


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## fountain (Jul 23, 2010)

Rc is right.  Rick Welch has a high elbow when he shoots as well..got a pic on here somewhere


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## Jake Allen (Jul 23, 2010)

Tj, I am going to try a clicker.
I have found several different makes. 
Which do you think is best?

Thanks!


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## ChrisSpikes (Jul 23, 2010)

Jake Allen said:


> Tj, I am going to try a clicker.
> I have found several different makes.
> Which do you think is best?
> 
> Thanks!



Jeff, I know you didn't ask me, but from what I've heard the Clickety Click is the best.


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## fountain (Jul 23, 2010)

Yep.  Clickety click
  Now this is off topic but I can't resist, we have mentioned 2 things. .double nock point and clickers, both of which are not allowed in tbg.  This should be addressed for the above mentioned purposes...to shoot better.

Sorry for hijacking lance.

U got it figured out yet?


Y


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## Slasher (Jul 23, 2010)

Man... How have I been missing this... I started having a glitch so to speak in my shooting... an occasional flyer to the left or right 6-12 inches... I got to where I was almost about to say the dirty two word prognosis...

I turned my bow more vertical and was trying ensure my bow was still in tune.. Broke out the square and tightened it up a couple twists... Kept with the more vertical and began shooting much better.... Started looking around and saw many of the target guys were 3finger under guys... Man, I was desperate... Season is fast approaching and I was falling apart!!! I started playing with 3 finger under and was amazed after a few sets of arrows... my groups started tightening up!!!

Figured time to take the tgt and put it on the workbench... Form Form Form, ingrain a pre-shot routine till it started coming together... Well today was the first day since about the 5th or 6th.... I began shooting around the yard and I am seeing progress.... Lots more tighter groups and no real issues cept the one LOW arrow from time to time... I need to learn to trust the bow arm a little more...

But man I am curious of two things....

     1.) My nocking point is higher, but the bow is still louder... What can I do?

     2.) How do I handle those tight shots that require more cant? It seems if I cant 
          excessively like to shoot under a limb or avoid an obstacle I slap my face silly??? 
          Any ideas???


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## LanceColeman (Jul 23, 2010)

Yea T I figured it out as soon as I discovered the nocking point.

As far as IBO, ASA, TBG or anything else is concerned with their rules?? You oughta know by now I am NOT concerned in the least lil bit. Back straps come from dead deer and not the first one has ever gotten up and told me I can't shoot em with my bow set up that way.

Dude.. I got 2 curves set up to shoot plastic vanes... which means, no wet feathers, no excessive arrow noise, no blood soaked ruined feathers (ya just wipe vanes off on ya T shirt and get on with it) No feather wear, And no feathers tearing off. I know a few groups of trad shooters that have rules that frown on that. Paul Schafer was shooting plastic vanes off a silvertip in Alaska before half of those rule makers ever even picked up a recurve or longbow. I guess Schafer, Like Hill and his extreme long distance animal shooting doesn't fit the trad mold either.




Slasher,

As above what I've done is create a looser higher wrist style hold which does not place excessive heel pressure on the bow...., applied more pressure to the upper fingers instead of all three evenly, and I shoot an elevated rest which also raises the centerline of the bow.

When you cant the bow you inadvertantly hold her a bit tighter and apply more pressure with the pinky side of your palm. This creates a bit of torque. When you force a more consant upright hold the bow settles in to your grip alot better and you also subconsciously hold her looser allowing it to balance out more..... So when you're used to one and switch to the other?? If you don't focus on exactly how you are holding the bow you will create a bit of tension or torque. Thats all it takes to make you move the bowarm on release.  

Rod beat on me for a long time about a "shot sequence" I thought it was bunk until I actually got one. When I do form work I mantra my form sequence each and every shot. The third step of my sequence is "this is where the bow settles in my hand and how I grip it."

A shot sequence makes you consciously concern yourself and think about each and every little detail which allows you to mainatain consistancy. consistancy is the key to accuracy.


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## fountain (Jul 23, 2010)

thats what im getting at on the rules..as long as we are having fun, shooting good, cleanly killing animals ( comes from shooting good) and expanding the sport and knowledge, why so many whacky rules?

no, im not wipin any kind of blood stained anything on my shirt intentionaly, except tears when i miss.


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## robert carter (Jul 23, 2010)

Good stuff here. Like Lance I could give a rats behind about rules at a shoot. TJ and Chris two deadly 3d shooters are much different. To each his own.
  I`ve tried 3 under three different times and struggled. I shot that way for almost a year with a Bob Lee and killed every thing I shot at.But with a longbow it just don`t feel good to me. 
 My bad shots are due to several things and I know what they are which is a plus but training myself to overcome is tuff sometimes.

  I NEVER short draw the bow. I hit anchor and usually solid but in order to shoot my best I need to hold about 3 seconds while focusing on the smallest thing on what I want to hit.Problem is I`ll shoot when I hit anchor and START to bear down on the spot.I`ll hit close but not as tight as I have in the past. Overbowed...I think maybe so.
 As far as a grip on the bow  goes. I have a VERY consistant grip on any bow I shoot. Reason being I Open my bow hand and let the bow go where it wants too as I begin to tighten on the string.It will go by itself to the same place every time. If I try to "place" my hand I am not consistant. A little bit of change in your grip will show weak arrows and tail high on some higher wrist grip bows.
When I built the homemade longbow I shoot a good bit I put sort of a "bulb" palm swell in it that has the most consistant grip of any longbow I`ve owned.As much as I love Hill bows they are the worst to get a consistant grip on.

Shooting "Mojo" the past week or so with med.weight arrows has really boosted my confidence. It is a r/d 4 lam bamboo bow about 50 lbs or so at my draw and I can hold it till shot time. 1st problem solved. No more heavy bows for me and you can hold me to that.

 Locator grips from now on for me = consistant grip. Even more consistency.

Med. weight arrows with better penetrating heads except for Turkeys off course. While shooting this past week I noticed I never shoot low Even out to 30 yards or so. Maybe a couple of inches but no knee cappers. 520 grains instead of 600 from the same bow makes a bow seem a little "happier" and me too on shots past 20 yards.

 Kinda cool how folks been doing this as long as most on this thread keep learning ain`t it.RC


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## fountain (Jul 23, 2010)

good stuff carter..that longbow i got from you has the best grip i have ever/will ever find.  im starting to think im overbowed too..and that may be a problem


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## robert carter (Jul 23, 2010)

TJ when I shot a lot of Tournaments in the past I noticed the folks that wanted to define traditional made the rules. If you show up with a flipperest and vanes they`d be horded together talking about you. If Paul Schaffer were still alive they would gather around and want autographs. 

 Some folks do this on Saturday to be "traditional" and shoot 3d. Nothing wrong with that. It makes them Happy.

 I do it in this order..GOD,Family,Friends,Work...LONGBOWS. Its in the top 5...I don`t need rules.RC


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## Slasher (Jul 24, 2010)

LanceColeman said:


> _Slasher,
> 
> When you cant the bow you inadvertantly hold her a bit tighter and apply more pressure with the pinky side of your palm. This creates a bit of torque. When you force a more consant upright hold the bow settles in to your grip alot better and you also subconsciously hold her looser allowing it to balance out more..... So when you're used to one and switch to the other?? If you don't focus on exactly how you are holding the bow you will create a bit of tension or torque. Thats all it takes to make you move the bowarm on release.
> 
> ...



Well, being an old gyrene... we always use saying to member stuff in the heat of the moment... and help memberin stuff...

Once I got out and got into shooting, I found out it was  really called a shot sequence to the rest of the world.....

I didn't have issues vertical, mine were all when holding canted... I thought it was a release issue, but couldn't place it... Felt as though i could feel a release issue even when I couldn't see the arrow in the light of dusk, but I could call the funky shot.... But playing vertical it all went smoother....

I only wish I could get my Longbow quiet like it was, instead of sounding like a quiet curve.... 

But I guess it will suffice... 

BTW... quick question... I am doing well out to 18-20 yds very quickly... but dang if those 20-30 yds shots are dang TUFF!!! straight vertically, but the two arrows I have set up are 11.6 and 12.5 gpp... how long should it take fer me to adjust??? Or should I go lighter... Is it an issue of the arrow being closer to the eye??? I am curious, what those have switched before have dealt with on the longer yardages... Were the closer one's easier and the further ones harder???


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## LanceColeman (Jul 24, 2010)

Depends slash. talking froma  hunters perspective how heavy IS 11-12gpp?? if we're talking a 40# bow then I wouldn't think we need to get much lighter on the arrows. But if were talking a 60# bow then we can go down a good bit and still have a solid hunting wieght arrow.

Few things on the cant. If we could all just tilt the entire body english and maintain everything consistant as we do when upright there would be no issues......

But if ya don't flow the body's english out the same things can change, torque on the grip, pressure on the string, even pressure on the arrow towards the side plate because we don't have the string hand tilted accordingly.  

With a "cant" you need to focus as much on how you cant the body as you do canting the bow. because if you don't lean the body the same amount?? you've thrown a wrong angle in to your routine.

In other words, "Be sure you twist a bit at the waist and force the bow arm shoulder DOWN to the inside towards the bow a bit. This should raise the string arm shoulder at full draw and not allow any harsh angles in the string hand wrist.


Try placing more pressure on your index finger (like TJ said don't try to remove the bottom finger completely off the string though). And just allow the bow to settle high on the web of thumb and forfinger on the bow hand at full draw.......

And realize that even though you CAN quiet a 3 under shot down an awful lot?? You'll never get it as quiet as the quietest split shot.

OH....... and in my own personal experince?? The widest "group opener" has always been between 25 and 30yds. My group opens up more between 25 and 30 yards than it does between 45 and 50 yds. I dunno what it is but there's a magic line out there some where between 20-30yds that truly inhibits my focus.


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## Slasher (Jul 24, 2010)

As for the arrows... probably 625-650 grn +/-, they just fly very well  .... 52-54# at my draw...

The 3 under seens to be working at hunting range... I guess it'll just take lots of arrows to get that 20-30 range... down


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## LanceColeman (Jul 24, 2010)

Thats seriously heavy for that wieght. Thats lkike cut through both sides of a 2" boar shield with a razor two blade heavy.

I shoot roughly the same wieght at around 10 gpp and have no trouble jobbing 3 blades through deer and  in the dirt out to distances the ethics police frown dearly on.


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