# How does one know they've aquired Salvation?



## EverGreen1231 (Oct 16, 2014)

There seems to be some division among the forum concerning a profound, and important, question: How do you know you're saved? By the works you do, or is it something more?

Back up your statements Biblically; no personal opinions will suffice.


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## deadend (Oct 16, 2014)

John 3:16


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## rjcruiser (Oct 16, 2014)

One does not acquire salvation....it is a gift from God.

Rom 6:23

Read I John if you are wondering if your salvation is real.


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## formula1 (Oct 16, 2014)

*Re:*

A great question.  This should get you started.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 

Titus 3
4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, 5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Romans 5
1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. 2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

John 17
3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 

John 3:36
36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Acts 4
11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. 12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

 Romans 10
6 But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7 “or ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11 For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Now, once you are saved, works (I call it just living for Jesus) are simply loving responses to the grace you received.  It could also be called walking in the Spirit or perhaps walking in obedience to God's plan for you.  None of these you do from obligation or to obtain salvation, but rather as a result of it!  It is God's goal that we live for Him!

2 Corinthians 5:15
14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died; 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 16, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> There seems to be some division among the forum concerning a profound, and important, question: How do you know you're saved? By the works you do, or is it something more?
> 
> Back up your statements Biblically; no personal opinions will suffice.


I know because I have what God requires.
I have a new nature.
I have a perfect righteousness.
I have an atonement.

"But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption"


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 16, 2014)

deadend said:


> John 3:16



Amen.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 16, 2014)

rjcruiser said:


> One does not acquire salvation....it is a gift from God.
> 
> Rom 6:23
> 
> Read I John if you are wondering if your salvation is real.



A gift is only in effect after having been received; though it is freely given not all have decided. God gives the gift, and man chooses whether or not to take it. Salvation is therefore something to be acquired. The gift is there for the taking, but one has to take to receive. (having said that, I agree with you. A better word would have been "received", although they mean the same thing.)

No doubt here. No force can pull me from his hands. I'm simply curious as to how people justify their salvation when biblical arguments are used. You hear a lot of "I feel this and that and therefore I'm saved."


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## hawglips (Oct 16, 2014)

Though salvation is a gift from God, I've never met a Christian of any denomination that thinks absolutely nothing is required of us in order to acquire the gift of eternal life.

All Christians believed something is required of us in order to receive the gift of eternal life.  The only differences are what they think is required of us.  

I personally believe all that Jesus taught about what is required of us in order to be saved.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 16, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Though salvation is a gift from God, I've never met a Christian of any denomination that thinks absolutely nothing is required of us in order to acquire the gift of eternal life.
> 
> All Christians believed something is required of us in order to receive the gift of eternal life.  The only differences are what they think is required of us.
> 
> I personally believe all that Jesus taught about what is required of us in order to be saved.



Never met gem huh?


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## NoOne (Oct 16, 2014)

It's simple, believe the gospel "good news" That Christ died for ours sins, was buried and rose again the 3rd day according to the scriptures. We are justified by faith, believing God who can not lie. 

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Ephesians 1:13


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## barryl (Oct 16, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> There seems to be some division among the forum concerning a profound, and important, question: How do you know you're saved? By the works you do, or is it something more?
> 
> Back up your statements Biblically; no personal opinions will suffice.


1 Cor. 15:1-5 KJV 1611 AV A good word to study up on, "TRUST". Salvation is in a person,The Lord Jesus Christ, not works(things)!!! Gal. 5:22-24, Gal. 2:20-21 KJV 1611 AV


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## mtnwoman (Oct 16, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Though salvation is a gift from God, I've never met a Christian of any denomination that thinks absolutely nothing is required of us in order to acquire the gift of eternal life.
> 
> All Christians believed something is required of us in order to receive the gift of eternal life.  The only differences are what they think is required of us.
> 
> I personally believe all that Jesus taught about what is required of us in order to be saved.



Amen!


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## Ronnie T (Oct 16, 2014)

Acts 2:

44 And all that believed were together, and had all things common;45 And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need.46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

If the Lord has added you, it'll be obvious.
.


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## NoOne (Oct 17, 2014)

Skeester said:


> It's simple, believe the gospel "good news" That Christ died for ours sins, was buried and rose again the 3rd day according to the scriptures. We are justified by faith, believing God who can not lie.
> 
> In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise Ephesians 1:13



“In Christ every member of His Body was present in the mind of God at Calvary.” “When God saw Christ on Calvary He saw more than Christ’s physical body. He also saw the ‘mystical’ body of Christ, which He had chosen from eternity. God saw there the whole Body of Christ.” “God reckons that what happened to Christ happened to every member of the Body of Christ. When Christ was crucified every member was crucified. When Christ was buried we were buried: When He arose we arose; When He ascended we ascended; so that we are today already seated in the heavenlies in Christ.” “So when you believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, you were baptized in the Spirit and into the Body of Christ, so that we become partakers of His death, burial and resurrection.” “We are saved by grace through faith and the moment we believe we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. That makes our justification complete.” 

Dr. M. R. DeHaan


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## gemcgrew (Oct 17, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Though salvation is a gift from God, I've never met a Christian of any denomination that thinks absolutely nothing is required of us in order to acquire the gift of eternal life.
> 
> All Christians believed something is required of us in order to receive the gift of eternal life.  The only differences are what they think is required of us.
> 
> I personally believe all that Jesus taught about what is required of us in order to be saved.


If anything is required from us, then eternal life is earned by us. It makes something that we do... the determining factor in salvation. It attempts to rob God of his glory and renders the work of Christ... meaningless.

If we base our salvation upon a decision we made, then it is our decision making skills that saves us.

"Salvation is of the Lord".


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Though salvation is a gift from God, I've never met a Christian of any denomination that thinks absolutely nothing is required of us in order to acquire the gift of eternal life.
> 
> All Christians believed something is required of us in order to receive the gift of eternal life.  The only differences are what they think is required of us.
> 
> I personally believe all that Jesus taught about what is required of us in order to be saved.



Then you haven't met many Christians!


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 17, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If anything is required from us, then eternal life is earned by us. It makes something that we do... the determining factor in salvation. It attempts to rob God of his glory and renders the work of Christ... meaningless.
> 
> If we base our salvation upon a decision we made, then it is our decision making skills that saves us.
> 
> "Salvation is of the Lord".



Acts 16:27-31

And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

I don't know what to tell ya, it seems fairly straight forward to me; at least, if you're using the bible to define your salvation. I suppose if you define it based on what makes sense to your own self...well, you'd come up with just about any sort of meaningless rambling.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 17, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Acts 16:27-31
> 
> And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.
> 
> ...



"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake"(Philippians 1:29)

Belief is a gift of God's grace. By grace you are saved.

Sir, I have been known to ramble, but when I ramble, I am mindful of God and what he has done for me. I was minding my own business one day, content in my Atheism. I did not choose God... God chose me.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 17, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake"(Philippians 1:29)
> 
> Belief is a gift of God's grace. By grace you are saved.



Yes, Paul was speaking about the suffering he was presently experiencing; saying, that it is not just for one to say they believe, but to show it, even under persecution. That is not to say, however, one must suffer for Christ to attain the grace. The grace is given freely of God. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. The faith of man is the cup by which the grace fills; it is the receiving party of the freely given grace: Grace is given, we have faith, salvation is imparted on Jesus' behalf. It is then clear: yes, something is required of man to attain salvation; the something is not a good deed, but a decision.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 17, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> It is then clear: yes, something is required of man to attain salvation; the something is not a good deed, but a decision.


Fine, then it is man's decision making skill that saves him. Your skill separates you from those that perish, the poor idiots.

Man's decision does not raise the dead, Omnipotence does.

Ephesians 2

Creation is God's work alone.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 17, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake"(Philippians 1:29)
> 
> Belief is a gift of God's grace. By grace you are saved.
> 
> Sir, I have been known to ramble, but when I ramble, I am mindful of God and what he has done for me. I was minding my own business one day, content in my Atheism. I did not choose God... God chose me.



I was not speaking of you directly, although I have re-read my post and see how that might of been implied. If I've caused any offense, please, forgive me: it was not intended.



gemcgrew said:


> I did not choose God... God chose me.



Amen.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 17, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I was not speaking of you directly, although I have re-read my post and see how that might of been implied. If I've caused any offense, please, forgive me: it was not intended.


Not a problem. I appreciate the graciousness.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I was not speaking of you directly, although I have re-read my post and see how that might of been implied. If I've caused any offense, please, forgive me: it was not intended.
> 
> 
> 
> Amen.



Evergreen, I'm missing something. Are you in agreement with Gem or disagreement?


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 17, 2014)

Both.
There was a weather-worn door set before me. Above the entrance it read "Whosoever will, may come." I lingered around the outside for a while, trying to decide whether-or-not to go in. In the course of time, I entered: I became part of the "whosever will." Once across the threshold I turned to see the other side. Above this side it read "God's Elect": I was now, also, part of the predestinated.
I don't claim to understand the relationship between election and free choosing among individuals; I do, however, know it's there. Perhaps, (I surmise carefully and thoughtfully, knowing that it can distract from the gospel if taken too far) the answer lies with God's perception of time. Time, to God (him being an infinite being) is nebulous; It has no shape, form, or great meaning to him. Thousands of generations could pass in the perceived length of a second, one second would seem like the lives of a thousand generations: one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. 
How can God condense an eternity of suffering from the fires of all those that were existent and have yet to be born into a finite time so as to be paid by the Son? I don't know. Despite my ignorance, I believe; this belief has been counted unto me for righteousness.

There are many-a-number of things I don't understand; this number grows daily: hourly.
So, I agree with gem; it just isn't the whole story.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Both.
> There was a weather-worn door set before me. Above the entrance it read "Whosoever will, may come." I lingered around the outside for a while, trying to decide whether-or-not to go in. In the course of time, I entered: I became part of the "whosever will." Once across the threshold I turned to see the other side. Above this side it read "God's Elect": I was now, also, part of the predestinated.
> I don't claim to understand the relationship between election and free choosing among individuals; I do, however, know it's there. Perhaps, (I surmise carefully and thoughtfully, knowing that it can distract from the gospel if taken too far) the answer lies with God's perception of time. Time, to God (him being an infinite being) is nebulous; It has no shape, form, or great meaning to him. Thousands of generations could pass in the perceived length of a second, one second would seem like the lives of a thousand generations: one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day.
> How can God condense an eternity of suffering from the fires of all those that were existent and have yet to be born into a finite time so as to be paid by the Son? I don't know. Despite my ignorance, I believe; this belief has been counted unto me for righteousness.
> ...



I was mostly referring to grace than freewill/predestination beliefs.
I'm wondering if you differ from Gem on grace, salvation, and works and their relation. 
In other words is salvation from grace alone or grace plus something else?


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 17, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was mostly referring to grace than freewill/predestination beliefs.
> I'm wondering if you differ from Gem on grace, salvation, and works and their relation.
> In other words is salvation from grace alone or grace plus something else?



I'm sorry, I misunderstood.

I can add nothing to my salvation accept the sins that deem it to be necessary. For by grace are yet saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is by grace alone.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 17, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> "For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake"(Philippians 1:29)
> 
> Belief is a gift of God's grace. By grace you are saved.
> 
> Sir, I have been known to ramble, but when I ramble, I am mindful of God and what he has done for me. I was minding my own business one day, content in my Atheism. I did not choose God... God chose me.



I am glad you are saved Mr Gem, it has always been a pleasure posting with you.  We don't see eye to eye on everything but we are where we are together and I am glad for that.

I'm sorry that you had to get where you were, not knowing the gospel.
I was exposed to it all of my life, but didn't really get most of it until a lot later in life and sorry for the time I missed out on and the time I wasted, but thank God I have peace in that now, knowing that God can use me now, still.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 17, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I can add nothing to my salvation accept the sins that deem it to be necessary. For by grace are yet saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not by works, lest any man should boast. Salvation is by grace alone.



Absolutely Right On brutha!


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## Israel (Oct 17, 2014)

I cannot help but think of "Shawshank Redemption" when these sort of questions come up.
Red is brought in before the parole board and asked if he's rehabilitated. We see the many iterations of this...his early attempts to grasp at convincing the board with whatever song and dance he deems worthy to sway them. Every time, he is refused.
When finally he tells the board what he wants to tell them, not what he thinks they want to hear, he is convinced he will live out his days inside those walls. Of course, this time he is granted parole.
That is secondary, the granting of his release. 
It is coming to the point that words mean different things to different folks, and trying to meet their (imagined by another) definition of that thing, is always both impossible, and in a real sense, a compromise of the soul.
I have nothing to show, nothing to convince, nothing to say... of myself that could ever, or should ever, be able to convince another of any standing before God. I am convinced the greater part of salvation is caring nothing for what men consider of anything, about anything, but pressing on to know Him in whom all good is found, because he alone is the thing that good is.
It is not the disregard of others in disrespect, for every man must give an answer according to his faith, and God knows where each of us may be found. It is in coming perhaps, to care less about one's evaluation, even of oneself, when faced with the glory of the one I am sure I am not.
I needn't dig very far to find whatever would seem reasonable against myself, these things of earth beset each of us daily. But in the respect of what may be needfully ignored to go on such a "dig" elsewhere, becomes a grief to the soul.
We are given in Christ all that is worthy of investigation, seeking, finding, asking of, and learning to hold, and those things that would interfere with this sole and salubrious occupation...even the interruptions that may beckon in seeming worthiness...become moot...and eventually, mute.
To know him...is all.
The disposition of all else, is rightfully, worthily, gloriously, his.
Jesus is Lord.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 17, 2014)

As with all that He does, Gods purpose was perfectly accomplished (Gen. 11:1-9).  Man's purpose in eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was to be God.  Man's purpose in building the city and tower was to be God.  The creature can not be the creator.


hope I got the imbed right.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> As with all that He does, Gods purpose was perfectly accomplished (Gen. 11:1-9).  Man's purpose in eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was to be God.  Man's purpose in building the city and tower was to be God.  The creature can not be the creator.
> 
> 
> hope I got the imbed right.



Man's purpose? How can man have a different purpose than God's purpose?
Man's purpose was to be like God yet God request that we strive to be like God. He will make us more like God when we die a physical death and become heirs with Jesus to the Kingdom.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 18, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Man's purpose? How can man have a different purpose than God's purpose?
> Man's purpose was to be like God yet God request that we strive to be like God. He will make us more like God when we die a physical death and become heirs with Jesus to the Kingdom.



He wants us to be more like Him, now. We will be exactly like Jesus when we arrive in the presence of God.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 18, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Man's purpose? How can man have a different purpose than God's purpose?
> Man's purpose was to be like God yet God request that we strive to be like God. He will make us more like God when we die a physical death and become heirs with Jesus to the Kingdom.



Isaiah 48:
11. “For My own sake, for My own sake, I will act;
For how can My name be profaned?
And My glory I will not give to another. 
as an example.


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## hawglips (Oct 18, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> If anything is required from us, then eternal life is earned by us. It makes something that we do... the determining factor in salvation. It attempts to rob God of his glory and renders the work of Christ... meaningless.
> 
> If we base our salvation upon a decision we made, then it is our decision making skills that saves us.
> 
> "Salvation is of the Lord".



Are you saved?

If so, when/how did you get to the point of considering yourself "saved?"


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## Israel (Oct 18, 2014)

It is the conundrum of the believer, the knowing not in the place of not knowing.
God.
His work to make man in his image and likeness. Who can add to that? Who can stop that?
What child does not eagerly await "growing up" so he can stay up all night if he cares to, eating candy whenever he cares to, drive wherever he cares to, without regard for ordinances and restriction? 
I used to wonder what "the world looked like from way up there, do they get dizzy looking around?" Their vantage was unfair, their stature frightening. If I can but wait...but I never could grasp that someday I would be.
"How does one make a statue of an elephant?" was the joke.
"Just chip away all the parts that don't look like an elephant."
By faith we see the treasure within, a hope of glory. 
But I am a saver of odd things, special things, peculiar things, like _myself_. I will chip away at those parts that _I think_ don't look like the elephant, lest I lose too much, some very valuable part that another may wack away at with abandon, without a care for me...it seems all I had ever known...be "better" without allowing the losing of yourself in the process. 
"Don't stutter you silly boy."
I will not. 
And so I come to say stupid things, but well, and cleverly enough, to take derision from faces that chipped, always chipped, away.
You must be different!
You are not good enough...yet. Keep trying.
Tiny chips of dust litter the floor, and there stands the monstrosity of my making, deformed, inelegant, graceless, a horror...but wielding huge hammer and chisel.
Behold your God!
O, shame!
O, depths!
Who can help?
Who can undo what I have made of myself?

To fall upon a stone and be shattered.
That only that stone remain.
Uncut, by hands like mine.
And so I stutter, the best I ever can.


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## hawglips (Oct 18, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> There seems to be some division among the forum concerning a profound, and important, question: How do you know you're saved? By the works you do, or is it something more?
> 
> Back up your statements Biblically; no personal opinions will suffice.



Matthew 25

It appears that some of us might be surprised at judgment.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 18, 2014)

Joseph

I go to Jesus as a brother;
 To him like Joseph, his brothers to the King,
 Yet they knew a King and  not their father's son.

Yet I know my Father's son,
 ever knowing I did,
 that Jesus is of my blood--
  the heavenly mated to the earth.

And that in the land of our afflictions,
 I was never to him  a stranger,
 He always recognized me, nor him to me a stranger.
He is ever my shepard.

-- I break his bread and drink his blood.


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## clayservant (Oct 18, 2014)

Romans 10:9-10Amplified Bible (AMP)

9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart a person believes (adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Christ) and so is justified (declared righteous, acceptable to God), and with the mouth he confesses (declares openly and speaks out freely his faith) and confirms [his] salvation.

Amplified Bible (AMP)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2014)

Forget about whether salvation comes from grace or grace plus works, what about the proof in the form of the fruits that the Holy Spirit performs through you.
Wouldn't these fruits let one know?


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 19, 2014)

Many claim "they know". I find it interesting that God would have designed things in a way that many who think they know, could actually be wrong. It is if one crowd, or more is deceived. "For the road is narrow and few find it", and, "did we not..... depart from me". I have come to realize that many are deceived.... and that I could be one of those. That was part of the motivation I had in trying to deprogram from all tradition, and look at what remained.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 19, 2014)

I usually don't like to hear "I know", because you don't. You have faith. Faith is the assurance of things unseen. On one hand, they are the same, but not really. This verse is one of my favorites;
for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.


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## Israel (Oct 19, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Many claim "they know". I find it interesting that God would have designed things in a way that many who think they know, could actually be wrong. It is if one crowd, or more is deceived. "For the road is narrow and few find it", and, "did we not..... depart from me". I have come to realize that many are deceived.... and that I could be one of those. That was part of the motivation I had in trying to deprogram from all tradition, and look at what remained.



Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Both.
> There was a weather-worn door set before me. Above the entrance it read "Whosoever will, may come." I lingered around the outside for a while, trying to decide whether-or-not to go in. In the course of time, I entered: I became part of the "whosever will." Once across the threshold I turned to see the other side. Above this side it read "God's Elect": I was now, also, part of the predestinated.



Amen!!


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

clayservant said:


> Romans 10:9-10Amplified Bible (AMP)
> 
> 9 Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
> 
> ...



Simple as that!!
Amen!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> I usually don't like to hear "I know", because you don't. You have faith. Faith is the assurance of things unseen. On one hand, they are the same, but not really. This verse is one of my favorites;
> for I know whom I have believed and I am convinced that He is able to guard what I have entrusted to Him until that day.



Do you have "limited blessed assurance?"

What about verses telling us we have assurance?

1 John 5:13 These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Simple as that!!
> Amen!



But one would need to produce fruit as proof, correct?

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.

1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

Ezekiel 36:27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.  

Romans 8:9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 

The Holy Spirit will cause us to walk in God's statutes. If one isn't doing this then it is proof that he doesn't have the Spirit of Christ.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you have "limited blessed assurance?"
> 
> What about verses telling us we have assurance?
> 
> 1 John 5:13 These things have I written to you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Point of my post is that a portion of us using that same verse are deceived into thinking we are saved. Example, trins and unitarians, one of us are deceived, yet we all claim to "know"


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> But one would need to produce fruit as proof, correct?
> 
> Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God.
> 
> ...



Yes, produce fruit in the Spirit, just like your verses proclaim. Not of flesh.
Even though usually what is in our spirit shows thru the flesh. But it isn't producing fruit in the flesh, if that's what you mean by 'proof'.  Even though we are trying to merge our 'new' spirit into our flesh....it's an ongoing process.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Holy Spirit will cause us to walk in God's statutes. If one isn't doing this then it is proof that he doesn't have the Spirit of Christ.



Proof to who?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Proof to who?



We are told to test ourselves. The only one to prove our salvation to really is ourselves. The  OP is asking more or less, what is our proof.
Our discussion from another thread is a Christian is known by the proof of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and producing fruit.
I would think the only reason to prove being a Christian to others is so the others don't shun you or possibly kick you out of Church or not even let you join their Church.
It's a promise from the Penetcost that the Holy Spirit will manifest it's power from dwelling in us. If the Holy Spirit can't make us produce fruit, then we aren't saved.

But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Point of my post is that a portion of us using that same verse are deceived into thinking we are saved. Example, trins and unitarians, one of us are deceived, yet we all claim to "know"



Are you saying trins, unitarians, non-trins, oneness, and a few more categories can't all be right so therefore some of us including me and you or others, are following a false gospel and possibly another Jesus? Would this keep us from salvation?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

When we think about salvation we mean "from He11" or eternal death depending on how we see it.
What about salvation from sinning? Does God keep us from sinning by giving us his Spirit?


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.



I can't prove that to people.  Only God knows our heart.

Of course I believe that our 'inside' fruit will show on the outside (flesh)....we'll never be perfect in showing that   though, it's a neverending process.  We are suppose to let the light of Christ show thru our fleshly actions, but most of us know we are not quite capable of doing that instantly upon receiving salvation.  We are gonna stay on that Potter's wheel for a while as the HS 'whittles and fires' us into shape. Some of us (including me) are a little harder to work with.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> When we think about salvation we mean "from He11" or eternal death depending on how we see it.
> What about salvation from sinning? Does God keep us from sinning by giving us his Spirit?



Do you know anyone who is sinless? Did it keep David from sinning? or Moses?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

Galatians 2:20
I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I now live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

From what I gather, Christ lives in a Christian in the form of the Holy Spirit. It's his power over our sin. It's him providing the proof.
Salvation is totally from God so it stands to reason the proof is totally from God. 

Romans 8:13-16
For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> I can't prove that to people.  Only God knows our heart.
> 
> Of course I believe that our 'inside' fruit will show on the outside (flesh)....we'll never be perfect in showing that   though, it's a neverending process.  We are suppose to let the light of Christ show thru our fleshly actions, but most of us know we are not quite capable of doing that instantly upon receiving salvation.  We are gonna stay on that Potter's wheel for a while as the HS 'whittles and fires' us into shape. Some of us (including me) are a little harder to work with.



While I understand what you are saying, doesn't one have to repent from his sins in order to be saved? If not FOR salvation, wouldn't he need to at least  repent/change or show fruit as proof of the dwelling of the Holy Spirit? 
One can't go on sinning and have the power of the Holy Spirit too. Perhaps a few minor sins but not a "Lifestyle" of sinning. Somehow Christians must repent and show proof.
The proof isn't the cause of Salvation but the effect of salvation. If the "effect" isn't there, then it stands to reason, neither was the salvation.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> While I understand what you are saying, doesn't one have to repent from his sins in order to be saved? *If you read my posts, then you that I believe you have to repent to be saved and you have to understand what God calls a sin.* If not FOR salvation, wouldn't he need to at least  repent/change or show fruit as proof of the dwelling of the Holy Spirit? *Once again I ask you, as proof to who?*
> One can't go on sinning and have the power of the Holy Spirit too.*Once again I ask you do you know of anyone who doesn't sin?* Perhaps a few minor sins but not a "Lifestyle" of sinning. Somehow Christians must repent and show proof. *Proof to who?*
> The proof isn't the cause of Salvation but the effect of salvation. If the "effect" isn't there, then it stands to reason, neither was the salvation.  *And again, proof to who? Someone taking names on here?*



I know I have the HS living in me....I know that I know that I know.  Can I prove that to you? No I cannot.  I am only to you what I appear to be.  Only God knows my heart.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> While I understand what you are saying, doesn't one have to repent from his sins in order to be saved? If not FOR salvation, wouldn't he need to at least  repent/change or show fruit as proof of the dwelling of the Holy Spirit?
> One can't go on sinning and have the power of the Holy Spirit too. Perhaps a few minor sins but not a "Lifestyle" of sinning. Somehow Christians must repent and show proof.
> The proof isn't the cause of Salvation but the effect of salvation. If the "effect" isn't there, then it stands to reason, neither was the salvation.



Didn't David have the Spirit of God living in him? Did he still sin? and not a little sin...adultery and murder are not little.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 19, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are you saying trins, unitarians, non-trins, oneness, and a few more categories can't all be right so therefore some of us including me and you or others, are following a false gospel and possibly another Jesus? Would this keep us from salvation?


Yes. One of the other are deceived into a false belief, yet we use the same book, we all claim to know we are saved. Somebody has to be wrong.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2014)

hawglips said:


> Are you saved?


Yes. Christ answered for me.



hawglips said:


> If so, when/how did you get to the point of considering yourself "saved?"


When? 25 yrs ago.
How? Grace!


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> We are told to test ourselves. The only one to prove our salvation to really is ourselves. The  OP is asking more or less, what is our proof.
> Our discussion from another thread is a Christian is known by the proof of the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and producing fruit.
> I would think the only reason to prove being a Christian to others is so the others don't shun you or possibly kick you out of Church or not even let you join their Church.
> It's a promise from the Penetcost that the Holy Spirit will manifest it's power from dwelling in us. If the Holy Spirit can't make us produce fruit, then we aren't saved.
> ...



There will, of course, be fruit upon the acceptance of God into your soul; this is something that will take place subconsciously; however, this is not my proof, it's only a side-effect. My proof is simply this: God made a promise, I accepted that promise; God being God, I fully expect him to fulfill his promise. This is the promise of my salvation. I believe that God will do as he's said, this is why I know I've eternal life: Once and forevermore redeemed.
If you are relying on your having produced some type of fruit in order to gain assurance of your salvation, you will live a most miserable existence, as you will not always bare fruit. You, should you be saved, have a new nature alongside the old. The new is of God and light, the old is sad and dark. Follow the New, and produce fruit; follow the old, and you very well may forget your salvation. Saying I know I'm saved by the fruit I bare, would be the same as saying I'm saved by the fruit I bare, which is to say "by works." "By their fruits ye shall know them", we can search out other Christians by the lives they lead, and, thusly, the fruit they bare; but, biblically, I can't see where one could prove salvation by fruit baring. Yes it "could" give indication of righteousness; and, biblically, it will, should the Christian walk in the light, as He is in the light: My point is, I rely on God's promise.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> There will, of course, be fruit upon the acceptance of God into your soul; this is something that will take place subconsciously; however, this is not my proof, it's only a side-effect. My proof is simply this: God made a promise, I accepted that promise; God being God, I fully expect him to fulfill his promise. This is the promise of my salvation. I believe that God will do as he's said, this is why I know I've eternal life: Once and forevermore redeemed.
> If you are relying on your having produced some type of fruit in order to gain assurance of your salvation, you will live a most miserable existence, as you will not always bare fruit. You, should you be saved, have a new nature alongside the old. The new is of God and light, the old is sad and dark. Follow the New, and produce fruit; follow the old, and you very well may forget your salvation. Saying I know I'm saved by the fruit I bare, would be the same as saying I'm saved by the fruit I bare, which is to say "by works." "By their fruits ye shall know them", we can search out other Christians by the lives they lead, and, thusly, the fruit they bare; but, biblically, I can't see where one could prove salvation by fruit baring. Yes it "could" give indication of righteousness; and, biblically, it will, should the Christian walk in the light, as He is in the light: My point is, I rely on God's promise.



My line of reasoning is in relation to the homosexual's salvation thread. 
Supposedly one can't continue a "lifestyle" of sin such as homosexuality or drunkardness. It was the consensus that a Christian must show fruit as proof. Otherwise continuing to sin is proof that the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in them.
This is somewhat different from a Christian who lives a "Lifestyle" of sins such as anger, lust, gossiping, and cheating. A "Lifestyle" of a bunch of little sins is acceptable as proof but a lifestyle of one bigger sin such as drunkardness is proof that the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in a Christian. 
Reason being is the Holy Spirit has power. It would be foolish for someone to believe that the Holy Spirit's power would not manifest itself in a Christian that he was promised at the Pentecost. Therefore no fruit, no salvation.

I do agree that one only needs to prove his heart  to God. 
Salvation is of the Lord and not by works.
You said; follow the old, and you very well may forget your salvation.
Isn't that the same thing I am saying, just in a different way? 

Also; By their fruits ye shall know them.
It must be some concern or reasoning for God to want us to know who these Christians are.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> My line of reasoning is in relation to the homosexual's salvation thread.
> Supposedly one can't continue a "lifestyle" of sin such as homosexuality or drunkardness. It was the consensus that a Christian must show fruit as proof. Otherwise continuing to sin is proof that the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in them.
> This is somewhat different from a Christian who lives a "Lifestyle" of sins such as anger, lust, gossiping, and cheating. A "Lifestyle" of a bunch of little sins is acceptable as proof but a lifestyle of one bigger sin such as drunkardness is proof that the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in a Christian.
> Reason being is the Holy Spirit has power. It would be foolish for someone to believe that the Holy Spirit's power would not manifest itself in a Christian that he was promised at the Pentecost. Therefore no fruit, no salvation.
> ...



I think you and I are saying, for the most part, the same thing; but the way you're saying it seems to give the idea that one "must" bare fruit to "remain" saved. You either are saved or you never were. No sin can pluck you from his hand once you have believed.
Sin is sin: Granted, some are "worse" than others; but all grieve God deeply.
A Christian with something as big as God dwelling inside of them will show some change. Language is different, actions carry a light not previously present, their presence exudes warmth that you can notice. It is something to say that you carry these attributes and therefore are saved; feelings and fruit production are just too nebulous a criteria to determine salvation. 
A homosexual (sodomite) may be saved at an early point in life, yet fall into his current lifestyle. Is he then no longer redeemed? God forbid! To be redeemed is to acquire eternal life; for this life to be eternal it must be from-now-on. It is not eternal if it can be lost. Should this man continue in his sin he will forget his salvation, but this does not change the fact that he is still saved.
The good that I would I do not: Evidence.
I bare fruit: Evidence.
For these things are written so that ye may know that ye have eternal life. God's will is that we know and are assured beyond all doubt. If we're not sure how then can we live a life of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance? If we live a life no different from the world, how can we turn them toward Christ? It can't be done if you live in a perpetual state of limbo. If God does not hold the keys to your salvation, then you can never be sure. For God to hold the keys you must trust: have faith.
So yes, fruit is evidence; but fruit will not make you sure.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> I think you and I are saying, for the most part, the same thing; but the way you're saying it seems to give the idea that one "must" bare fruit to "remain" saved. You either are saved or you never were. No sin can pluck you from his hand once you have believed.
> Sin is sin: Granted, some are "worse" than others; but all grieve God deeply.
> A Christian with something as big as God dwelling inside of them will show some change. Language is different, actions carry a light not previously present, their presence exudes warmth that you can notice. It is something to say that you carry these attributes and therefore are saved; feelings and fruit production are just too nebulous a criteria to determine salvation.
> A homosexual (sodomite) may be saved at an early point in life, yet fall into his current lifestyle. Is he then no longer redeemed? God forbid! To be redeemed is to acquire eternal life; for this life to be eternal it must be from-now-on. It is not eternal if it can be lost. Should this man continue in his sin he will forget his salvation, but this does not change the fact that he is still saved.
> ...



I believe as you that a Christian has freedom from sin through Jesus Christ whose death redeemed our sins. Jesus intercedes for us.

Hebrews 7:25
Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.

Please explain what you mean by a man can forget his salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.

Ephesians 2:8-9  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God.

John 5:24  Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Hebrews 7:25  Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I believe as you that a Christian has freedom from sin through Jesus Christ whose death redeemed our sins. Jesus intercedes for us.
> 
> Hebrews 7:25
> Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.
> ...



2nd Peter Chapter 1.

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.


You can sin and be saved; however, as with all things, there is a price to be paid. You will forget your redemption; therefore, no longer having the peace of salvation. The consequences of this are father reaching than just your own life but the life of those who watch you.
One of the biggest things I hear when I ask people why they don't go to church, or even, in some cases, why they no longer believe in God, is that Christians aren't very Christian-like. This is why works are important in salvation. Not for one to be saved, or remain saved, or to prove their salvation to God; but to show it to others who might be watching (there are always others watching). I will show you my faith by my works. They are important, very much so; just, not for the reason many people have interpreted.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> My line of reasoning is in relation to the homosexual's salvation thread.
> Supposedly one can't continue a "lifestyle" of sin such as homosexuality or drunkardness. It was the consensus that a Christian must show fruit as proof. Otherwise continuing to sin is proof that the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in them.
> This is somewhat different from a Christian who lives a "Lifestyle" of sins such as anger, lust, gossiping, and cheating.  A "Lifestyle" of a bunch of little sins is acceptable as proof *How is it different/acceptable? Like you also said in the homosexual thread, a sin is a sin.* but a lifestyle of one bigger sin such as drunkardness is proof that the Holy Spirit doesn't dwell in a Christian.  * We still fail and repent, "if" we recognize it as a sin, my point on the first page of the h. thread.  If you are, which I'm not saying you are, but if you are referring to me, do I consider it a sin to get drunk, yes. I always repent if I do because I know it is a sin.  I rarely drink, I'm not ever around anyone else who does, I have seperated myself from that tempation as much as I can.  I can get loaded on one beer now. I might drink a 6 pk a year...and not all at one time*
> Reason being is the Holy Spirit has power. It would be foolish for someone to believe that the Holy Spirit's power would not manifest itself in a Christian that he was promised at the Pentecost. Therefore no fruit, no salvation.*Same as I said about a homosexual when you said it wasn't different than any other sin, but they have to repent. If they believe it is not 'that' bad of sin or not a sin at all, how can they repent?*
> ...


  Our fruit is showing when we stand on what we believe to be true, regardless if anyone calls us judgemental.  My testimony to others who knew me before my deliverance, know that I am different now. They can tell by my actions and words. My testimony doesn't only include alcohol, but can cover all the sins of addiction.  So as proof we tell them the way out of a hades on earth and how to receive redemption from satan.  God wants all of us to have the discerning of spirits. All of us know by the fruit of some preachers/teachers that they are not teaching God's Word correctly, don't we? Or people who sin constantly and conciously without a second thought as if it is their 2nd nature?  We know it because it shows in the rotten fruit they produce.   "You" shall know "them" by their fruit by the power of the HS....that is for "our" benefit, not necessarily just theirs.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> You can sin and be saved; however, as with all things, there is a price to be paid. You will forget your redemption; therefore, no longer having the peace of salvation. The consequences of this are father reaching than just your own life but the life of those who watch you.
> One of the biggest things I hear when I ask people why they don't go to church, or even, in some cases, why they no longer believe in God, is that Christians aren't very Christian-like. This is why works are important in salvation. Not for one to be saved, or remain saved, or to prove their salvation to God; but to show it to others who might be watching (there are always others watching). I will show you my faith by my works. They are important, very much so; just, not for the reason many people have interpreted.



Yes!

We are not called to be a stumbling block to anyone. God gave me a testimony to USE!  And I had to take a little trip to hades and back to receive that specific testimony. That road is closed down, blocked off, and way to scary and dark for me to go back down.  God tells us not to move in darkness, sometimes I have to rebuke it because now I can because of the Light.

Anyone here ever consciously think about how satan uses our weaknesses against us? I'm sure you have. My temptation  is mostly self medication to feel better. Never have I been tempted to rob a bank, or kill someone, or shoot up drugs....it's the same thing over and over that will 'make me feel better' The devil is a liar, it only makes me feel worse mentally so I don't do it...at least 95% of the time...satan comes to kill, steal and destroy only.  Jesus is my redeemer, my deliverer, my strength and I give ALL the glory to Him for anything I have been able to overcome thru HIM!!!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

But where the rubber meets the road concerning salvation, is producing fruit. We might say we don't know what this fruit is but this fruit is the proof of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
A person who has salvation has to know to himself whether he is producing fruit.
Now this might be only for the sole purpose of showing non-Christians that Christians aren't hypocrites but I don't think that is the only reason.
Now we can say that we have assurance  by stating a few verses that say we have freedom from sin, but only if we are producing fruit.
Repentance is more than feeling remorse or believing that your sin is in fact SIN. I do realize one needs to believe that his particular sin is SIN as a place to start his repentance.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> You can sin and be saved; however, as with all things, there is a price to be paid. You will forget your redemption; therefore, no longer having the peace of salvation. The consequences of this are father reaching than just your own life but the life of those who watch you.



What are the consequences of forgetting your redemption?

Does salvation from eternal death include salvation from sinning?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Yes!
> 
> We are not called to be a stumbling block to anyone. God gave me a testimony to USE!  And I had to take a little trip to hades and back to receive that specific testimony. That road is closed down, blocked off, and way to scary and dark for me to go back down.  God tells us not to move in darkness, sometimes I have to rebuke it because now I can because of the Light.
> 
> Anyone here ever consciously think about how satan uses our weaknesses against us? I'm sure you have. My temptation  is mostly self medication to feel better. Never have I been tempted to rob a bank, or kill someone, or shoot up drugs....it's the same thing over and over that will 'make me feel better' The devil is a liar, it only makes me feel worse mentally so I don't do it...at least 95% of the time...satan comes to kill, steal and destroy only.  Jesus is my redeemer, my deliverer, my strength and I give ALL the glory to Him for anything I have been able to overcome thru HIM!!!



Does salvation from eternal death include salvation from sinning?

Where or how does one receive the power to not sin or produce fruit? Doesn't this power come from the Holy Spirit? 

Wouldn't it stand to reason the Holy Spirit's fruit is proof?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> But where the rubber meets the road concerning salvation, is producing fruit. We might say we don't know what this fruit is but this fruit is the proof of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
> A person who has salvation has to know to himself whether he is producing fruit.
> Now this might be only for the sole purpose of showing non-Christians that Christians aren't hypocrites but I don't think that is the only reason.
> Now we can say that we have assurance  by stating a few verses that say we have freedom from sin, but only if we are producing fruit.
> Repentance is more than feeling remorse or believing that your sin is in fact SIN. I do realize one needs to believe that his particular sin is SIN as a place to start his repentance.




Are there times in your life that you know God stepped in and corrected your rebellion? We're all guilty of rebellion, 
 Hebrews 12 May be of some comfort of those wondering.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Are there times in your life that you know God stepped in and corrected your rebellion? We're all guilty of rebellion,
> Hebrews 12 May be of some comfort of those wondering.



Our salvation does include discipline from God. We aren't able to live an unholy life and still see the Lord.

Hebrews 12:14-15
Work at living in peace with everyone, and work at living a holy life, for those who are not holy will not see the Lord.
15See to it that no one falls short of the grace of God and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many.

What is our proof or assurance of living a Holy life? A call to Holiness is required.

So much for once saved, always saved. It was good while it lasted.

Unless the fruit is proof from the Holy Spirit dwelling in me. Which would mean salvation is from God, the proof is from God.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

It's discussions like this and the homosexual thread that keep me on a religious roller-coaster between free grace and lordship salvation, freewill & election.

I get confused on what Jesus saved me from. It has to be more than saving me from eternal death/he!!. He must also save me from sinning by letting his spirit produce fruit through me.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Yes. One of the other are deceived into a false belief, yet we use the same book, we all claim to know we are saved. Somebody has to be wrong.



Perhaps Hope is a better description  than assurance of describing our salvation.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does salvation from eternal death include salvation from sinning?
> 
> Where or how does one receive the power to not sin or produce fruit? Doesn't this power come from the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Wouldn't it stand to reason the Holy Spirit's fruit is proof?



One will not sin when the ability to sin is removed upon death or transformation; until then we all have a sin nature, saved or not. Those that aren't saved are dead in their trespasses and sin, those that are saved have a new nature and an advocate with the Father. This does not make their old nature of none effect. We can still succumb to the old ways, if we so choose. That which is of God cannot sin. 
God's grace is sufficient.
Salvation from sinning will not be till we reach that place where God is. Until then, we must battle.


Romans Chapter 7

15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

(I didn't want to post the whole thing here, but you really can't get the full picture without reading chapter 6 and 7)


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's discussions like this and the homosexual thread that keep me on a religious roller-coaster between free grace and lordship salvation, freewill & election.
> 
> I get confused on what Jesus saved me from. It has to be more than saving me from eternal death/he!!. He must also save me from sinning by letting his spirit produce fruit through me.



God is not the author of confusion. He's saved you from both. You are free to choose as you have also been chosen.

Why are you so underwhelmed with salvation from death and He11?


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## M80 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's discussions like this and the homosexual thread that keep me on a religious roller-coaster between free grace and lordship salvation, freewill & election.
> 
> I get confused on what Jesus saved me from. It has to be more than saving me from eternal death/he!!. He must also save me from sinning by letting his spirit produce fruit through me.



And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. (CensoredEcclesiastes‬ Censored12‬:Censored12-14‬ KJV)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> God is not the author of confusion. He's saved you from both. You are free to choose as you have also been chosen.
> 
> Why are you so underwhelmed with salvation from death and He11?



Well because on another thread we started discussing where certain sinners will not go to Heaven which means they will go to eternal death/he!!.
They never showed any proof of having the Holy Spirit so the consensus of some was, the persons who continue sinning or a lifestyle of sin was the proof that they didn't have the Holy Spirit.

I read of Grace alone and believe salvation is from grace alone. But now it has been brought to my attention that I must produce fruit to ensure my salvation was real and not just some ecstatic feeling I was experiencing.
If people can doubt the salvation of others by them not producing fruit then naturally I start questioning my own salvation based on the fruit or lack of that I produce.


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## M80 (Oct 20, 2014)

Art you said "you must produce fruits". If someone is truly bit again they will produce fruit. Not everyone will produce full bloom all the time but there will be fruit. You don't know how much fruit you have produced in these threads here.


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## hobbs27 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> What is our proof or assurance of living a Holy life? A call to Holiness is required.



When the beatings have stopped and you look back on them as blessings.....from my experience anyway.

I don't think God lets loose of His people in the New Covenant. He whips us into shape, but by this we know that we are His.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Well because on another thread we started discussing where certain sinners will not go to Heaven which means they will go to eternal death/he!!.
> They never showed any proof of having the Holy Spirit so the consensus of some was, the persons who continue sinning or a lifestyle of sin was the proof that they didn't have the Holy Spirit.
> 
> I read of Grace alone and believe salvation is from grace alone. But now it has been brought to my attention that I must produce fruit to ensure my salvation was real and not just some ecstatic feeling I was experiencing.
> If people can doubt the salvation of others by them not producing fruit then naturally I start questioning my own salvation based on the fruit or lack of that I produce.



Sin cannot enter the gates of splendor. It would then stand to reason, homosexuals cannot enter the kingdom, along with liars, and murderers, and evil doers, such as we all are and once were. True though this may be, it leads to a misnomer. Homosexuals, as they are defined currently, engage in horrible sin; but all sin is horrible to God. Homosexuals can be forgiven just as any other; and should they continue in their sin they will remain redeemed, though this would be strong evidence that they did not truly receive the gift, just as there would be strong evidence against your salvation should you continue in lies and deceit and loving other things before God: Only God can judge the heart, for it is with the heart that man believeth unto righteousness. The heart is evil, desperately wicked above all: Who can know it? For out of the heart prosedeth the issues of life. Keep your heart with all diligence.
Though these sins easily entice us with their gilded shells, God is not slack concerning his promises. If you rely on your salvation being made real to you by taking stock of the fruit you bare, you will never be satisfied. This is true for you because you know that you can't "work" your way into heaven, not saying that you are or you believe you can; but, you will always feel as if the fruit you bare is inadequate, not enough to justify your redemption.
God, who cannot lie, said he would keep you so that none can pluck you from his hand. What must be done to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. If you've done this, there is no cause for concern. For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

Salvation is not a feeling, but a decision. I've decided to believe God. This is a cerebral experience.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

just realized I've been saying bare instead of bear...  

Sorry 'bout that.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> just realized I've been saying bare instead of bear...
> 
> Sorry 'bout that.



Quit missing the mark will ya?  
But don't worry, we ALL do it...at least I can say that I do. Makes me be more careful/thoughtful...know what I mean? I need more and more Jesus....I'll never git enuff Jesus!



(sin is old archery term for missing the mark)


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Sin cannot enter the gates of splendor. It would then stand to reason, homosexuals cannot enter the kingdom, along with liars, and murderers, and evil doers, such as we all are and once were. True though this may be, it leads to a misnomer. Homosexuals, as they are defined currently, engage in horrible sin; but all sin is horrible to God. Homosexuals can be forgiven just as any other; and should they continue in their sin they will remain redeemed, though this would be strong evidence that they did not truly receive the gift, just as there would be strong evidence against your salvation should you continue in lies and deceit and loving other things before God: Only God can judge the heart, for it is with the heart that man believeth unto righteousness. The heart is evil, desperately wicked above all: Who can know it? For out of the heart prosedeth the issues of life. Keep your heart with all diligence.
> Though these sins easily entice us with their gilded shells, God is not slack concerning his promises. If you rely on your salvation being made real to you by taking stock of the fruit you bare, you will never be satisfied. This is true for you because you know that you can't "work" your way into heaven, not saying that you are or you believe you can; but, you will always feel as if the fruit you bare is inadequate, not enough to justify your redemption.
> God, who cannot lie, said he would keep you so that none can pluck you from his hand. What must be done to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. If you've done this, there is no cause for concern. For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
> 
> Salvation is not a feeling, but a decision. I've decided to believe God. This is a cerebral experience.



Good answer and amen. I think you've got it!


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Art you said "you must produce fruits". If someone is truly bit again they will produce fruit. Not everyone will produce full bloom all the time but there will be fruit. You don't know how much fruit you have produced in these threads here.



I hope I have been a blessing but I'm sure not everyone agrees. I believe we need to understand that we don't fully understand the relationship between God and Tom, Dick, or Harry compared to our relationship. We should work on our own relationship. Sometime we get lost, me included, on salvation requirements, definition of repentance, and just so much legalism that we can't see the forest for the trees. 
All of this and Jesus just wants us to love each other.
Yet we get lost trying to decide who has salvation, who is producing fruit, and requirements, requirements. We wonder if _____ sinners will be in Heaven? Yet we can't even define ____sinners. We wonder is repentance is more than a change of mind yet we can't define how much change in lifestyle meets the definition as if it's even the same for me or you.
I'm not sure God expects the same out of me as out of you or vise-versa. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. We all have different sins. We all have different fruits. The drunkard might not ever overcome his drinking but may show more love than another who has lust in his heart. 
The Sabbath keeper may feel he needs to keep the Sabbath even though he doesn't feel it's required.
The daily sinner of many little sins is just as guilty as the sinner of just one bigger sin. Bigger and little by our definition. 
The important thing for me is that we are all sinners but have been washed. The list can now be abolished.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Quit missing the mark will ya?
> But don't worry, we ALL do it...at least I can say that I do. Makes me be more careful/thoughtful...know what I mean? I need more and more Jesus....I'll never git enuff Jesus!
> 
> 
> ...



Understood  However, my grandmother (a writer and an avid reader) is probably rolling in her grave.   She always got upset with me when I misspelled words and such the like  ...I miss her. She always made sure I got plenty o' Jesus.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2014)

EverGreen1231 said:


> Sin cannot enter the gates of splendor. It would then stand to reason, homosexuals cannot enter the kingdom, along with liars, and murderers, and evil doers, such as we all are and once were. True though this may be, it leads to a misnomer. Homosexuals, as they are defined currently, engage in horrible sin; but all sin is horrible to God. Homosexuals can be forgiven just as any other; and should they continue in their sin they will remain redeemed, though this would be strong evidence that they did not truly receive the gift, just as there would be strong evidence against your salvation should you continue in lies and deceit and loving other things before God: Only God can judge the heart, for it is with the heart that man believeth unto righteousness. The heart is evil, desperately wicked above all: Who can know it? For out of the heart prosedeth the issues of life. Keep your heart with all diligence.
> Though these sins easily entice us with their gilded shells, God is not slack concerning his promises. If you rely on your salvation being made real to you by taking stock of the fruit you bare, you will never be satisfied. This is true for you because you know that you can't "work" your way into heaven, not saying that you are or you believe you can; but, you will always feel as if the fruit you bare is inadequate, not enough to justify your redemption.
> God, who cannot lie, said he would keep you so that none can pluck you from his hand. What must be done to be saved? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. If you've done this, there is no cause for concern. For God hath not given us a spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
> 
> Salvation is not a feeling, but a decision. I've decided to believe God. This is a cerebral experience.



When we enter the gates of Heaven none of us will be sinners. We'll all be changed in an instant. Until then I can only assume my sins, that would have kept me from the Kingdom, have been taken care of, wiped from my bill, and paid in full.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I hope I have been a blessing but I'm sure not everyone agrees. I believe we need to understand that we don't fully understand the relationship between God and Tom, Dick, or Harry compared to our relationship. We should work on our own relationship. Sometime we get lost, me included, on salvation requirements, definition of repentance, and just so much legalism that we can't see the forest for the trees.
> All of this and Jesus just wants us to love each other.
> Yet we get lost trying to decide who has salvation, who is producing fruit, and requirements, requirements. We wonder if _____ sinners will be in Heaven? Yet we can't even define ____sinners. We wonder is repentance is more than a change of mind yet we can't define how much change in lifestyle meets the definition as if it's even the same for me or you.
> I'm not sure God expects the same out of me as out of you or vise-versa. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. We all have different sins. We all have different fruits. The drunkard might not ever overcome his drinking but may show more love than another who has lust in his heart.
> ...



This^^^^Amen.

Do I agree...who cares? From what I can read in the scriptures, this agrees with God: That's what matters.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> When we enter the gates of Heaven none of us will be sinners. We'll all be changed in an instant. Until then I can only assume my sins, that would have kept me from the Kingdom, have been taken care of, wiped from my bill, and paid in full.



Good stuff Art, good stuff.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I hope I have been a blessing but I'm sure not everyone agrees. I believe we need to understand that we don't fully understand the relationship between God and Tom, Dick, or Harry compared to our relationship. We should work on our own relationship. Sometime we get lost, me included, on salvation requirements, definition of repentance, and just so much legalism that we can't see the forest for the trees.
> All of this and Jesus just wants us to love each other.
> Yet we get lost trying to decide who has salvation, who is producing fruit, and requirements, requirements. We wonder if _____ sinners will be in Heaven? Yet we can't even define ____sinners. We wonder is repentance is more than a change of mind yet we can't define how much change in lifestyle meets the definition as if it's even the same for me or you.
> I'm not sure God expects the same out of me as out of you or vise-versa. We all have different strengths and weaknesses. We all have different sins. We all have different fruits. The drunkard might not ever overcome his drinking but may show more love than another who has lust in his heart.
> ...



You are always a blessing to me....keeps me jumpin' and seekin'.  Just what I need, more Jesus using Art today to whip me into shape...

Besides all that, now I'm more addicted to hummus than anything else.... Much easier to type and eat when ya don't 'have time' to cook.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> When we enter the gates of Heaven none of us will be sinners. We'll all be changed in an instant. Until then I can only assume my sins, that would have kept me from the Kingdom, have been taken care of, wiped from my bill, and paid in full.



Right on brutha!!!


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## valkrod (Oct 27, 2014)

Great comments. back to orginal question, How do you know your saved? Local Calvinist/Baptist pastor, told a mother of 2 daughtes that got saved he could not say both girls would go to haven and they may not be part of the choosen as he belived.


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## Israel (Oct 27, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Great comments. back to orginal question, How do you know your saved? Local Calvinist/Baptist pastor, told a mother of 2 daughtes that got saved he could not say both girls would go to haven and they may not be part of the choosen as he belived.



He wouldn't be the first to say what he could not say...and even maybe shouldn't have.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 27, 2014)

Israel said:


> He wouldn't be the first to say what he could not say...and even maybe shouldn't have.


I find it to be refreshing.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 27, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Great comments. back to orginal question, How do you know your saved? Local Calvinist/Baptist pastor, told a mother of 2 daughtes that got saved he could not say both girls would go to haven and they may not be part of the choosen as he belived.



Who got saved, the mother or the two daughters?

For some reason I thought of a Calvinist/Baptist preacher at a funeral. You gotta respect their honesty.

It's strange but  a part of Christianity is based on the faith one has on God granting them salvation. It's like we are to be assured we have it but not to the point of pride. We must also be humble in this approach and not too bold.


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 28, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Great comments. back to orginal question, How do you know your saved? Local Calvinist/Baptist pastor, told a mother of 2 daughtes that got saved he could not say both girls would go to haven and they may not be part of the choosen as he belived.



The earlier posts answer your question, so I'll not trudge through that again.

I personally see no gain in expounding towards people concerning something which I expressly don't know, nor have any say in; so, I'll never say, especially to a new believer, "I don't know your heart." I don't need to tell them, they already know. 
I don't save you, nor does the Baptist/Calvinist Pastor. Why bother or concern yourself with their beliefs?


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## hobbs27 (Oct 28, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Great comments. back to orginal question, How do you know your saved? Local Calvinist/Baptist pastor, told a mother of 2 daughtes that got saved he could not say both girls would go to haven and they may not be part of the choosen as he belived.



Well.....I hope the HS gets a hold of that old boy and sends him on a pew jumping, shouting fit next time he has to stand....maybe a good place to turn a squirrel loose.


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## Atlanta Dawg (Oct 28, 2014)

I suppose you will know when you get there ?  Right ?  If you get there before I do-let us all know !


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## barryl (Oct 28, 2014)

1 John 5:12-13 KJV 1611 AV He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the Son of God. Sounds like a pretty good guarantee to me!! A fella ought to be able to "trust" the word of God.


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## valkrod (Oct 28, 2014)

Good points. Duaghters got saved at home and mother went to tell pastor. About to split this church. He has also preached that he and the church needs to get the unsaved out of the church.

Interesting times we live in.


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## formula1 (Oct 28, 2014)

*Re:*

Interesting indeed!  You should probably run from that church, not that I am telling you to do it!

If you get the unsaved out of the church, to whom do you preach the Gospel?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Good points. Duaghters got saved at home and mother went to tell pastor. About to split this church. He has also preached that he and the church needs to get the unsaved out of the church.
> 
> Interesting times we live in.



But the preacher said he doesn't know who is saved or not. How can he truly know who in the congregation is saved and who are tares?


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## EverGreen1231 (Oct 28, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Good points. Duaghters got saved at home and mother went to tell pastor. About to split this church. He has also preached that he and the church needs to get the unsaved out of the church.
> 
> Interesting times we live in.



I would say the unsaved should not hold an office in the church (a preacher or a Sunday school teacher). But to say a sinner cannot enter at all is fallacy and a  lamentably foolish thing to say.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 28, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Good points. Duaghters got saved at home and mother went to tell pastor. About to split this church. He has also preached that he and the church needs to get the unsaved out of the church.
> 
> Interesting times we live in.


Sounds like the opposite of the witch hunt the church went through way back with those they deemed Knostics, the word "to know", they were chased out of the church for claiming they had a knowledge. Not actually "claiming it", more like a quiet peace of believing that God had revealed things to them, content to wait for God to reveal to others. But it became a witch hunt, driving them from the church. As time went on they were accused of all kinds of things. Soon it became another word for heretic. At some point, divisions began to be singled out, no longer falling under the umbrella of Knostic. But as much as they are accused of, the original group did not teach anything. They were said to be hard to eradicate because they blended in, did not voice their personal beliefs in that regard. I don't know what all the fuss was. Jesus said he would reveal things as they grew, that he would make himself known. In a church, the wise realize that not everybody is in the same grade level. They realize that the same teacher who taught them is more than capable of teaching others with no help from them. So whatever you have heard about the Knostics, most of it being reverse engineering, remember what they were called, what the word meant, then you can determine what is actually reverse engineering or an umbrella word used during a time period for heretic


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## gemcgrew (Oct 28, 2014)

valkrod said:


> Good points. Duaghters got saved at home and mother went to tell pastor. About to split this church. He has also preached that he and the church needs to get the unsaved out of the church.
> 
> Interesting times we live in.



What church is this? Name it.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 28, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sounds like the opposite of the witch hunt the church went through way back with those they deemed Knostics, the word "to know", they were chased out of the church for claiming they had a knowledge. Not actually "claiming it", more like a quiet peace of believing that God had revealed things to them, content to wait for God to reveal to others. But it became a witch hunt, driving them from the church. As time went on they were accused of all kinds of things. Soon it became another word for heretic. At some point, divisions began to be singled out, no longer falling under the umbrella of Knostic. But as much as they are accused of, the original group did not teach anything. They were said to be hard to eradicate because they blended in, did not voice their personal beliefs in that regard. I don't know what all the fuss was. Jesus said he would reveal things as they grew, that he would make himself known. In a church, the wise realize that not everybody is in the same grade level. They realize that the same teacher who taught them is more than capable of teaching others with no help from them. So whatever you have heard about the Knostics, most of it being reverse engineering, remember what they were called, what the word meant, then you can determine what is actually reverse engineering or an umbrella word used during a time period for heretic



That's the way I feel. Things have been revealed to me and I've been labeled a heretic. I have never claimed to know but only ask others to seek.
I don't know if it is a calling or a curse. Perhaps It was revealed by the wrong spirit.
If one seeks my guidance I would say, test the spirits. Meaning study the scripture for your own revealing. 

Something revealed to me recently was that my sins are equally as guilty as the sins performed by Paul's various sin lists that would keep someone from the Kingdom. The only difference is that my sins were washed.
I can't say for sure your sins were washed as mine were so I'd read the scripture to achieve your "assurance."


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## Israel (Oct 31, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> That's the way I feel. Things have been revealed to me and I've been labeled a heretic. I have never claimed to know but only ask others to seek.
> I don't know if it is a calling or a curse. Perhaps It was revealed by the wrong spirit.
> If one seeks my guidance I would say, test the spirits. Meaning study the scripture for your own revealing.
> 
> ...


The eye is dense with cones, but not the more sensitive (to light) rods at the very center of focus. Rod's are absent.
"I want to be sinless"
"I want assurance"
"I need to know"
"I need (or someone needs) healing"
Revelation.
Eternal life.



“Looking away unto Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith…

Light is not best perceived by the thing upon which we may focus...a little looking away, for what is not seen...

While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Seek ye first...


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## 1gr8bldr (Nov 7, 2014)

1gr8bldr said:


> Sounds like the opposite of the witch hunt the church went through way back with those they deemed Knostics, the word "to know", they were chased out of the church for claiming they had a knowledge. Not actually "claiming it", more like a quiet peace of believing that God had revealed things to them, content to wait for God to reveal to others. But it became a witch hunt, driving them from the church. As time went on they were accused of all kinds of things. Soon it became another word for heretic. At some point, divisions began to be singled out, no longer falling under the umbrella of Knostic. But as much as they are accused of, the original group did not teach anything. They were said to be hard to eradicate because they blended in, did not voice their personal beliefs in that regard. I don't know what all the fuss was. Jesus said he would reveal things as they grew, that he would make himself known. In a church, the wise realize that not everybody is in the same grade level. They realize that the same teacher who taught them is more than capable of teaching others with no help from them. So whatever you have heard about the Knostics, most of it being reverse engineering, remember what they were called, what the word meant, then you can determine what is actually reverse engineering or an umbrella word used during a time period for heretic


For those interested. Look at this writing meant to refute Valentinus. Talk about a witch hunt;
Tertullian: Against the Valentinians

TERTULLIANI ADVERSUS VALENTINIANOS

Translation by Mark T. Riley, 1971

I.

The Valentinians, as everyone knows, are the most commonly encountered sect of heretics--most common because they are mostly apostates from the true religion, quite willing to invent myths, and are not deterred from their inventions by a strict rule of life. These individuals care about nothing more than to conceal what they teach--if indeed anyone who conceals can be said to teach. Their duty of guardianship is a duty brought on by their guilty consciences. They preach confusion while (seemingly) asserting their piety. In just the same way concerning the Eleusinian mysteries, itself a heresy of Athenian paganism; the fact that they keep silent about these mysteries make them an object of shame. Consequently the mystagogues make entry difficult and perform long initiation rites before they accept the devotee; they put him on probation for five years in order to increase his anticipation by suspense and in this manner cause the awesomeness of their rites to match the desire which has been elicited. Their duty of secrecy is a natural consequence; they guard closely what they are finally to reveal. Then--the entire godhead of the sanctuary, the object of devoted sighs, the secret signed on all tongues: the image of a penis. To allay disappointment, they bring forward the honored name of nature (using it allegorically) and cover their sacrilege with the help of an arbitrary metaphor. Thus they acquit themselves of the charge (of sacrilege) by this deceitful use of an image. In just this manner the heretics against whom we are now opening fire fashion useless and disgraceful tales out of the sacred names, titles, and contents of the true faith. They can do this because of the openhanded charity of the divine scriptures; from such a large work, many interpretations can be drawn. These people make the Eleusinian rites into Valentinian lures, sacred only because of their great silence, heavenly only because of their concealment. If you question them in all good faith, they answer with a poker face and raised eyebrows, "that is obscure"; if you feel them out diplomatically, they swear they have the same beliefs as you, only blurred in translation. If you indicate you know what they really think, they deny they know anything. If you attack them openly in argument, they make your victory over them ineffective by their clever innocence. They do not even reveal their secrets to their own disciples before they make them their own, but instead they have a trick by which they persuade them before they teach them. In our case, however, truth persuades by teaching, she does not teach by persuading.



II.

Therefore we are branded "innocent" by them, and for that reason they do not consider us "wise." They imagine that wisdom has nothing in common with innocence, even though the lord connected both in his saying, "be prudent as serpents and innocent as doves" (Matt. 10:16). Now, however, if we are stupid because we are innocent, are they not "un-innocent" because they are wise? The most vicious individuals are those who are not innocent, just as the most stupid are those who are not wise. As for me, I would prefer to be convicted of the better fault if I have to make a choice; it is better to have a lesser intelligence than an evil one; better to err than to deceive. Furthermore, the face of God is seen by those seeking in innocence--as the Wisdom of Solomon, not of Valentinus, teaches. Infants as well bore witness to Christ by their blood; can I call those who cried "crucify him!" children? They were neither children nor infants, specifically they were not innocent. The apostle moreover orders us to become like children according to God's will, in order that we might be "babes in evil" by our innocence and secondly, "in thinking be mature" (I Cor.14). By this he makes it clear that wisdom should flow from innocence. To sum up, the dove used to reveal Christ; the serpent used to tempt him. The former from the first was the herald of divine love; the latter from the first was the thief of God's image. Therefore, innocence by itself can easily both recognize and exhibit God. Wisdom by itself can rather attack and betray him.


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