# "No Man's Land" Bow Shots/Arrow Hits on Deer from Mike Hanback & Dr. Grant Woods



## BornToHuntAndFish

*"No Man's Land" Bow Shots/Arrow Hits on Deer from Mike Hanback & Dr. Grant Woods*

Just saw a good discussion piece from a couple deer experts in the hunting industry on Mike Hanback's blog about "no man's land" (above lungs & below spine) bow shots made on deer that may be of interest to some folks:  


Here's blog briefs 1 of 2 from Mike, then next by Dr. Grant Woods:  

http://www.mikehanback.com/blog/index.cfm/2009/8/25/Bowhunting-Deer-Is-No-Mans-Land-For-Real

Bowhunting Deer: Is "No Man's Land" For Real?

August 25, 2009 

Posted By : Mike Hanback

Some hunters believe it is possible to zip an arrow through “no man’s land”--just under a buck’s spine and above his lungs—and that it is possible for the animal to run off, heal and live to be hunted another day. 

Other bowhunters say ["no", edited for cleaner word choice] just look at the deer’s anatomy below. It is impossible to shoot an arrow into that area without hitting some vitals and probably killing the deer, even if you never find it.

I count myself a cautious believer, because years ago I hunted with a TV host who bought in some footage of a 160-class buck he’d shot earlier in the day. The cameraman slowed down the hit—high, but we all believed the arrow clipped the top of both lungs, and that we’d find the buck dead within 100 yards or so the next morning. We looked for 2 days, no buck. Three days later the cameraman videoed the same buck walking by another tree stand, but too far out for a shot. The deer had a noticeable hole in no man’s land, and it was beginning to heal. The animal didn’t look sick. To the contrary, he walked fine. I have been a reluctant believer ever since. 

What about you--is no man’s land for real, or no? If you’ve shot a deer high like that (and what bowhunter hasn’t?) tell us about it—did you get the deer or no...if not, did you ever see him again…did you see him later in the season with a scar? Get your bowhunting buddies and tell them to comment on this post, because I want as much field data as possible. It’s a good, educational topic with bow season around the corner.

In my next post, I’ll tell you what one of America’s top deer biologists (and an avid bowhunter) thinks about this. It will be the most comprehensive info you’ve ever read on no man’s land. 

AND . . . . . . .


Here's blog briefs 2 of 2 from Dr. Grant Woods:  

http://www.mikehanback.com/blog/index.cfm/2009/8/27/Bowhunting-Deer-Dr-Grant-Woods-on-No-Mans-Land

Bowhunting Deer: Dr. Grant Woods on "No Man's Land"

August 27, 2009 

So, is it possible to zip an arrow under a buck’s spine but above the lungs, and have the animal live? I asked Missouri biologist and hard-core bowhunter Dr. Grant Woods to weigh in:  


Mike: This is a frequent debate among bowhunters. Both sides hold solidly to their opinions. This is probably because both sides are correct – at least according to their observations.  

For starters, let me say I’ve seen some deer that have a scar where a broadhead penetrated or passed through, and others where the broadhead was actually encapsulated with scar tissue.  

One time I worked a project where we harvested a dozen does. Two of them had scars perpendicular across both their loins (back muscles). They appeared to be antler punctures, and the wounds were not obvious until the does were skinned. I’m sure that if a bowhunter had flung an arrow through these does at those spots, he would have sworn he had made a nice chest shot. He would have recovered an arrow with blood tip to nock, but never recovered the deer.  

Also, I have known of deer that had obvious broadhead scars in the lungs. These deer appeared normal to the hunters before being harvested. These wounds obviously occurred at least one season before they were killed. The healing of lung tissue is not normal – but it can occur. 

Now to the nitty-gritty of the question: Depending on whether a deer’s lungs are inflated (breath in) or deflated (big exhale), there may be room between the spine and lungs for an arrow to pass and not cause a fatal wound. HOWEVER, I believe it is much more common for an arrow to slide just ABOVE the spine. 

I’m always amazed when I’m hunting on camera, shoot a deer and believe I’ve made perfect hit, only to have the cameraman replay the shot in slow motion—and then I realize my hit was high because the deer “jumped the string.” One time a blood trail stopped without a deer at the end. We replayed the tape. The deer had dropped many inches and my arrow had barely nicked the top of the deer’s back!  Without watching the film in slow motion, I would have argued that I’d made a great shot.  

Most “film hunters” I know (including Hanback) aim at the bottom third of the heart/lung vitals because they’ve watched so many deer drop a full chest height like that. It never appears they drop that much in live time, but it’s amazing when you see it in slow motion. 

Bottom line: In the case of “no man’s land,” I’d bet much more on the shot actually being high due to string jump than a deer surviving a hit in the lungs or an arrow passing between the spine and the lungs, though it could conceivably happen.—Grant


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## ddd-shooter

Looking at that diagram, I don't see how a 1" sharp blade could miss the vitals even if hit in "no man's land"


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## short stop

I  show this  illustration  to  anybody who  tells me  they  hit above the  lungs  / below the  spine ......''' the  no man  land  '''    well  it   simply does not exist .. The  lungs  come  as  high as the  base of the  cord .  BTW  pic    is     a real deer  cut in half . Theres  abosultley no way  you can  get an arrow  above those lungs  and below  the spine  w/ hitting   one or the other ..



    Theres  alot of   meat on a good buck in the backstraps .  Zip one thru it   and  theres  lots of blood   , enuf to track for  a good ways  100-300 yrds or more before  it clots  up .  I ve   seen    more than  my fair  share of bucks  survive the hit .  Some on here from variuso  members   thru trailcams   and  some Ive shot myself .


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## ddd-shooter

Thanks short stop. Thats a great pic...


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## shortround1

ddd-shooter said:


> Looking at that diagram, I don't see how a 1" sharp blade could miss the vitals even if hit in "no man's land"


ddd trust me its their. i hit a doe in what i thought was the lungs, never found blood arrow nuthing, and i had a dog. two weeks later a doe walks up in the same spot and i shoot for a low lung shot. same thing, no blood no arrow no nuthing. the next month my cousin was huntinng a stand bout 1/4 mile away and she walked right by hiz stand. she had two x marks about 2" apart right behind the shoulders, she was doing fine.


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## ddd-shooter

shortround1 said:


> ddd trust me its their. i hit a doe in what i thought was the lungs, never found blood arrow nuthing, and i had a dog. two weeks later a doe walks up in the same spot and i shoot for a low lung shot. same thing, no blood no arrow no nuthing. the next month my cousin was huntinng a stand bout 1/4 mile away and she walked right by hiz stand. she had two x marks about 2" apart right behind the shoulders, she was doing fine.



So you are saying the lungs healed? I can believe that, although I cannot believe you did not hit the lungs...


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## Booner Killa

What Grant Woods said makes sense to me and I actually believe more deer get hit above the spine and are called "no man's land" hits than below. I've seen a deer get hit in the lungs and the spinal cord at the same time. Very gruesome sight til he expires. I've shot em high like that a time or two myself.......no blood, no sign to follow. If you've bowhunted much, it's probably happened to you.


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## albaraptor

I shot at a descent 8 last year .Hit him high and never found him.So I believe they can definately live from my experience.


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## deerhunter70

short stop said:


> I  show this  illustration  to  anybody who  tells me  they  hit above the  lungs  / below the  spine ......''' the  no man  land  '''    well  it   simply does not exist .. The  lungs  come  as  high as the  base of the  cord .  BTW  pic    is     a real deer  cut in half . Theres  abosultley no way  you can  get an arrow  above those lungs  and below  the spine  w/ hitting   one or the other ..
> 
> 
> 
> Theres  alot of   meat on a good buck in the backstraps .  Zip one thru it   and  theres  lots of blood   , enuf to track for  a good ways  100-300 yrds or more before  it clots  up .  I ve   seen    more than  my fair  share of bucks  survive the hit .  Some on here from variuso  members   thru trailcams   and  some Ive shot myself .



Great answer and I am with you all the way...


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## shortround1

ddd-shooter said:


> So you are saying the lungs healed? I can believe that, although I cannot believe you did not hit the lungs...


hey brother that was not a small doe, she was a 4 or 5 year old, if i had not had some one to verify the hit i would have  given my shot a 99%. a few years earlier i hunted with my buddie and he shot a doe in a food plot and it ran for at least 400 yards,. the blood ran out and we never found her . that spring during turkey season the doe walked out at 15 yards of me. she had the most perfect scar i had ever seen 2" below the shoulder and 1" back.i do not think a gun would have done any better.


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## BornToHuntAndFish

ddd-shooter said:


> Looking at that diagram, I don't see how a 1" sharp blade could miss the vitals even if hit in "no man's land"





short stop said:


> I  show this  illustration  to  anybody who  tells me  they  hit above the  lungs  / below the  spine ......''' the  no man  land  '''    well  it   simply does not exist .. The  lungs  come  as  high as the  base of the  cord .  BTW  pic    is     a real deer  cut in half . Theres  abosultley no way  you can  get an arrow  above those lungs  and below  the spine  w/ hitting   one or the other ..
> 
> Theres  alot of   meat on a good buck in the backstraps .  Zip one thru it   and  theres  lots of blood   , enuf to track for  a good ways  100-300 yrds or more before  it clots  up .  I ve   seen    more than  my fair  share of bucks  survive the hit .  Some on here from variuso  members   thru trailcams   and  some Ive shot myself .



Good to hear & read lots of opinions on this.  

I agree, from most of the deer anatomy images I've seen, there seems to be none or very little space between the top edge of the lungs & bottom edge of the spine.  Fewer deer anatomy images show lots more space between lungs & spine, but more appear to show very little space.  Also, there sure looks like lots of protective bone around the spine & tops of the ribs.    As Hanback said above, it seems there is more space above the spine in some areas than below the spine.

Great cut-away view of a deer, short stop. 

I wonder how old that deer was showing us anatomy details from a frontal view instead of the more common broadside side view.  Also, I wonder how much different it would look like in a live deer or what an  medical pictorial would look like from an animal doctor's point of view, since I would expect with a live animal with regular, normal blood flow thru a deer's organs & body that it would be pumped up more or inflated more to some small degree with all the natural internal liquid compositions where there may be more space inside the body cavity than we're seeing.  

There's been so much ongoing, credible, respectable discussion & press about the "no man's land" topic that I suspect there is much more truth to it than I fully realize & that something of it exists, but I'm not sure how much I would buy into it.  It's such an uncommon weapon impact occurrence that I do not expect it to happen very often, but I think it does happen on occasion.

Deer are such resilient survivors that every season for decades always brings another surprise & something more to learn about whitetails.  Wonder what more awesome encounters this upcoming season is going to bring for all of us.  Lord willin' & the crik don't rise, I hope to be out there for as many as I can.


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