# What could it hurt?



## HawgJawl (Dec 9, 2013)

What could it hurt to credit God for everything good that happens in my life?  Is there any reason why I should not label every good thing that happens as a miraculous blessing from God?

First, who receives blessings?
In scripture, blessings correlate with being favored by God and are portrayed in contrast to being cursed by God.  Blessings and curses on an individual level are most commonly the direct result of the actions of the recipient.  Scripture repeatedly associates blessings with those who obey God’s commandments and curses with those who do not.  Christians do not have the option of believing that people of other religions receive miraculous blessings because people of other religions are not obeying God’s commandments and therefore do not warrant favor from God.  Since miraculous blessings are so closely associated with attaining favor from God by striving to live as Christ-like as possible, the receipt of miraculous blessings could easily be construed as approval by God of the lifestyle of the recipient.

Second, what is a miraculous blessing?
A miraculous blessing is a special favor, mercy, or benefit bestowed by God in a supernatural manner.  By definition, a miraculous blessing cannot be an event that is commonplace and typical for the average person.  The sun rising in the morning may be a spectacular event which inspires an emotional response, but because it is a normal daily event and is not bestowed solely upon a single person or small group, it cannot be classified as a miraculous blessing.  There are other labels more appropriate for the appreciation of a wonderful sunrise.

Narrowly escaping a car crash is often labeled a miraculous blessing by Christians.  This cannot be a miraculous blessing because people of all religions and of no religion narrowly escape car crashes in similar proportion.  If God performed miracles to protect Christians from car crashes, data would clearly illustrate that Christians are involved in fewer car crashes.  Insurance companies could provide discounts based upon church membership.  Trucking companies could require their drivers to attend church to lower their liability.  Since religious affiliation produces no statistical difference in a person’s likelihood of avoiding a car crash, the avoidance of a car crash cannot justly be attributed to a miraculous blessing from God.

So, even if narrowly escaping the car crash was not a miraculous blessing from God, what could it hurt to publically give God the credit?

I can think of a few reasons why it is not good to spread a false message concerning God.  Can you think of any?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 9, 2013)

Hawg---- Do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord?


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## Israel (Dec 9, 2013)

I can think of no "good" reason to not give thanks to God through Jesus Christ in everything.
Just because a million people don't know the chicken I am eating is a miracle, or care not to, I can't deny it.
You ever tried to make one? I mean make one...even if I gave you all the parts? So it could also make others?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 9, 2013)

Hawg, my new forum friend, when God moves, visibly, the impact upon those involved usually defies English labels.  Providence.  Holy Spirit leading.  The car swerved at the last second... . Miracle.  The survivors' hearts, the witnesses' hearts, know something new.

I agree with you; praising God, as Israel models, is always correct.

 Having taken the bait, I await the spring of the trap! Blessings.


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## hummerpoo (Dec 9, 2013)

"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."  The context is John 13:33-17:26.

Acts 14:
18.  {Even} saying these things, with difficulty they restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them.
 19.  But Jews came from Antioch and Iconium, and having won over the crowds, they stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead.
 20.  But while the disciples stood around him, he got up and entered the city. The next day he went away with Barnabas to Derbe.
 21.  After they had preached the gospel to that city and had made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and to Iconium and to Antioch,
 22.  strengthening the souls of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and {saying,} "Through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God."

Romans 5:
3.  And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance;
 4.  and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope;
 5.  and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.
 6.  For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

A search of the word “tribulation” in the NT{edited in}(20+ examples) will show that the premise of the OP is not taught there, nor do I think in the OT, but that is more than I wish to attempt.

Philippians 4:
4.  Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice!
 5.  Let your gentle {spirit} be known to all men. The Lord is near.
 6.  Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God.
 7.  And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.
 8.  Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

Israel said:


> I can think of no "good" reason to not give thanks to God through Jesus Christ in everything.
> Just because a million people don't know the chicken I am eating is a miracle, or care not to, I can't deny it.
> You ever tried to make one? I mean make one...even if I gave you all the parts? So it could also make others?



Being thankful for things that most people have or things that are a normal part of life is a different subject.  That is why I specifically defined the event as a supernatural intervention due to favor from God.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Hawg---- Do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord?



Yes.

But as I stated on another thread, I do not believe He is in the business of miraculously changing traffic lights to green for Christians who are running late.  I find nothing in scripture to support that.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

We discussed on another thread the assertion that God assisted a criminal in avoiding apprehension by law enforcement.  Not whether God is capable of doing this but the claim that He actually did.  That got me thinking about the negative consequences of making this type of claim.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Yes.
> 
> But as I stated on another thread, I do not believe He is in the business of miraculously changing traffic lights to green for Christians who are running late.  I find nothing in scripture to support that.


Some do not see the difference between divine providence and miracles.


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## SemperFiDawg (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Is there any reason why I should not label every good thing that happens as a miraculous blessing from God?



No there is not.  To label it as anything else, for instance mundane, is simply to be ungrateful.  For instance being able to accomplish the simple task of hitting your mouth with a fork is only mundane if you're not a quadriplegic.  Isn't that something to be grateful for, miraculous even.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> No there is not.  To label it as anything else, for instance mundane, is simply to be ungrateful.  For instance being able to accomplish the simple task of hitting your mouth with a fork is only mundane if you're not a quadriplegic.  Isn't that something to be grateful for, miraculous even.



Again, this is not what I am referring to.  This is a normal part of life which is fine to be thankful for but it is not a supernatural deviation from the normal course of events due to special favor from God.  The original post is long because I wanted to make the definition clear.

When applied to the issue of traffic lights turning green for a Christian who is running late, it is normal for anyone driving to sometimes catch more green lights than red.  

A miraculous intervention by God making traffic lights green when they are normally programmed to be red would entail an error to the entire programming of the system controlling the traffic lights.  In most cities the traffic lights are tied together and programmed to all change in connection with each other to maximize traffic flow.  This miracle would leave clear evidence of an unexplained  deviation to the programming and would probably result in the city sending traffic engineers to find the problem and fix it.

Being thankful for arriving safely and on time is one thing, but claiming that God miraculously stopped everyone else on the road that day to clear a path solely for you is quite another.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 10, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Some do not see the difference between divine providence and miracles.



I am one such, but would gladly receive or at least ponder a distinction from you though Gem if you find it important in our walk with Christ.  Blessings.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Yes.
> 
> But as I stated on another thread, I do not believe He is in the business of miraculously changing traffic lights to green for Christians who are running late.  I find nothing in scripture to support that.



 Being a Christian you must know the presence of God. Whether it be a small still voice or a feeling of confirmation by sign. So why do you suggest that other brothers and sisters would lie about what God has done for them?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Being a Christian you must know the presence of God. Whether it be a small still voice or a feeling of confirmation by sign. So why do you suggest that other brothers and sisters would lie about what God has done for them?



Do you believe that it is possible for a person to claim that God did something when in fact God did not do it?

If I claim that God miraculously filled my cooler with beer, is it possible that the beer got there some other way and God had nothing to do with it?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that it is possible for a person to claim that God did something when in fact God did not do it?
> 
> If I claim that God miraculously filled my cooler with beer, is it possible that the beer got there some other way and God had nothing to do with it?



 What I believe is I only know what happens between myself and my Savior, and even though occasionally I can feel the spirit in someone else's testimony, I have no way of doubting the person when it comes to blessings they have received from their Savior. If they say God saved them from having a terrible accident then I believe it cause I know He still saves and He still heals today!


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## Ronnie T (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you believe that it is possible for a person to claim that God did something when in fact God did not do it?
> 
> If I claim that God miraculously filled my cooler with beer, is it possible that the beer got there some other way and God had nothing to do with it?



Yes!  It is possible.  A person will "claim" all sorts of things.
.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> What I believe is I only know what happens between myself and my Savior, and even though occasionally I can feel the spirit in someone else's testimony, I have no way of doubting the person when it comes to blessings they have received from their Savior. If they say God saved them from having a terrible accident then I believe it cause I know He still saves and He still heals today!



Fair enough.

In another thread there was a discussion regarding a criminal claiming that God assisted them is avoiding apprehension by law enforcement during the commission of the crime.  

Can you imagine a scenerio in which the claim might tend to portray God in a negative and incorrect way, such as God taking the side of and assisting the criminal oppressor while ignoring the pleas of the victim?


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## jkkj (Dec 10, 2013)

So what was GOD doing while Jesus was being crucified?  All I am saying is that GOD allowed it.


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## formula1 (Dec 10, 2013)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Yes!  It is possible.  A person will "claim" all sorts of things.
> .



I agree!  And it may in fact be what they believe to be the case!  In my mind, what is wrong with that as long as it's positive and good and God receives the Glory for the happening!  Why would I dare say a word against another proclaiming the goodness of God?

There are things that have most definitely occurred in my own life and in the life of my loved ones which I give total credit to my God (you can read about some of them by finding a post or two of mine).  Perhaps I will find out one day that one or more of them didn't come from God at all when I stand in His presence. BUT...He has the Glory for them as far as I'm concerned and thats the way I choose to see it. And you know, God indeeed inhabits the praises of His people!  God Bless!


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

jkkj said:


> So what was GOD doing while Jesus was being crucified?  All I am saying is that GOD allowed it.



God allowing things to happen is not the issue.  We are talking about miraculous blessings that supernaturally intervene to change the normal course of events.  Not simply allowing something to happen, but actively performing miracles to assist it.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 10, 2013)

formula1 said:


> as long as it's positive and good and God receives the Glory for the happening!



Thank you.

Those are the type of qualifiers I am looking for.

If those qualifiers are not met by the claim, do you think it could possibly have a negative effect, perhaps on a person who is not very familiar with Christianity but believes that this claim is representative of the Christian God?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 10, 2013)

Paul, another ambassador for Christ, suggested that we all praise God and happily thank Him, even in bad times.

Through Christ, good can be found and received in all situations.  Maybe God caused that horrible automobile accident!  Maybe He did not!  Maybe God saved your life in that near-missed head on collision.

Most of God's children become very comfortable giving all thanks to their heavenly father.  Giving thanks in all circumstances.
.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 10, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> In another thread there was a discussion regarding a criminal claiming that God assisted them is avoiding apprehension by law enforcement during the commission of the crime.
> 
> Can you imagine a scenerio in which the claim might tend to portray God in a negative and incorrect way, such as God taking the side of and assisting the criminal oppressor while ignoring the pleas of the victim?



I dont think God sits back and takes sides as things happen. Could God allow a criminal get away with a crime? Sure. 

 What about this scenario? Man has a succesful business and all is going well in his life. All of the sudden things start going south and he prays for God to help but no help comes, the man loses his wife in divorce, his home in foreclosure, and his business in bankruptcy. 
 Some people have been through this and decided life was no longer worth living, they may even get mad at God for not answering the prayers to save everything they had.

 This same person finds a job, rents a mobile home in a neighborhood he normally would not live in. While living here he meets a neighborhood kid that asks questions about God---the man takes the boy to church after speaking with the parents which refuse to go but dont mind someone else taking him. The boy starts learning about God and here's the Gospel preached, a couple of months later in revival he accepts Christ as his personal savior---and then through all this the man looks up to heaven and says Thanks Lord, the blessing I see tonight was worth all the strife I went through, and Thank you Lord for using me!

 I say all that to show how when we have our hearts and minds on the Lord, we see things differently.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 10, 2013)

jkkj said:


> So what was GOD doing while Jesus was being crucified?  All I am saying is that GOD allowed it.



Was God as passive...allowed? Before the foundation of time, the cosmos, there was the Word, the Holy Spirit, God, who ordained Christ's appointment of atonement. "Not my will, but yours!" For payment of our debt.

Predicted in self-confirming scripture of centuries, from the first book to the last.  alpha and omega.  Allow? 

He wills it ... . Blessings.


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## Ole Crip (Dec 11, 2013)

Anything and everything you do is on account of God.. You live you breath you walk you talk. No matter what you do it's on account of God. He created you. So yes he deserves all the glory in all that you do.


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## Israel (Dec 11, 2013)

OK...divine providence...or miracle?
Thank God I had enough light left to find that deer after I took the shot.

Thank God he made the sun stand still so we could finish the battle.

Thank God he made the sun go backwards, I now have another 15 years of life.

Being talking mud, being thinking mud, beholding other muds with treasures...not sure this wet agglomeration of calcium, magnesium, potassium, et al, really knows where to draw the line.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2013)

Israel said:


> OK...divine providence...or miracle?
> Thank God I had enough light left to find that deer after I took the shot.
> 
> Thank God he made the sun stand still so we could finish the battle.
> ...





Your thinking is so roman or  ancient greek or middle ages.... in that their great project that it was to live, it was to theirs to die well aware of death  and their death the stamp that infact one had lived. They said of one who had recently died, not "So and so is dead.",   but instead "He lived."(Montague)

For the redemption " He lived." when describing our physcal death, is an ancient brodery serounding their shrouds and now their Gods.  They lived for death and in life died. We live--for in the redemption we have our promised land.

In this life, we who are caught up in the clouds of the redeemed, we cannot live enough even knowing the beauty of ordinary men living forever. We do not live at the wims of Gods, we live with Him. When our chemistry is dissorved we are not. Our heavens are not our deaths in the memories of future men.

Yet what remains in us,  our old men being not pure in devotion to our vows, we cleave to the dreams of the ancient dead and how God spices the destinies of men destined to death, for we can well call every senced object out of death, interupting death a miracle and the interuptions witness of a greater life, a spiritual life.

Fully alive in our redemption every act away from death is a breath from Him and not a miracle at all. If man fought  with life to live instead of with death-- a miracle would be as  an event of superstition was in the lives and deaths of the ancients. To the redeemed miracles  are unnessasary for why should our Lord intervene, Him being alive in our every breath and the brush of our finger tip.


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## formula1 (Dec 11, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> If those qualifiers are not met by the claim, do you think it could possibly have a negative effect, perhaps on a person who is not very familiar with Christianity but believes that this claim is representative of the Christian God?



I think man errors (you can call that negative) when we base our belief on a claim of any kind outside of our own personal experience with the Father.  I would not want you to base your God experience on my claims, for example, but rather hear my experience with the Almighty God and come and taste and see that the Lord is good for yourself.  He has milk and honey just for you!
God Bless!


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2013)

formula1 said:


> I think man errors (you can call that negative) when we base our belief on a claim of any kind outside of our own personal experience with the Father.  I would not want you to base your God experience on my claims, for example, but rather hear my experience with the Almighty God and come and taste and see that the Lord is good for yourself.  He has milk and honey just for you!
> God Bless!



A man must choose his food. True food that feeds the soul, real drink and real food, is a choice. We pray that our brother, and we call him brother for hope we have in prayer, that he will chose once again to nourish his soul with good drink and good foods. Until then--we shall carry his superstitions--- that miracles are rediculous to the man he feeds. May GBhim to take up his cross again--as per his willful choice. We all fear loss of control. To the fouls, on hades way, it is a thorn, this fear is a great inconveniance, a hinderance of deception that one might extricate one's self from its pain;  to the saint, fear and its pains, these are a gift to Him.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 11, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Your thinking is so roman or  ancient greek or middle ages.... in that their great project that it was to live, it was to theirs to die well aware of death  and their death the stamp that infact one had lived. They said of one who had recently died, not "So and so is dead.",   but instead "He lived."(Montague)
> 
> For the redemption " He lived." when describing our physcal death, is an ancient brodery serounding their shrouds and now their Gods.  They lived for death and in life died. We live--for in the redemption we have our promised land.
> 
> ...



Beautiful, mud men.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Beautiful, mud men.



Yes. But also for us and our brother this today: There is a faith that builds its fortresses against douth. It is a early form of faith and the enemy surely does run it over if left at that. But give a man an oppertunity to make a choice on it, on his faith, on belief and it becomes a fortress against the world. And it is made to stand against all that the world can pelt at it. I speak of the fullness of faith that in Christ we are called to. 

Some like our brother though that the faith against doubt was of sufficient belief but when the enemy came by himself against the world he was run over without the simple will left for a counter attact, his fate sealed. The faith against doubt is insufficient. Now he is his vanquiser's vessel-- a prisoner of his mind.

It takes time to train good troop. There is a faith, made by choice, that has no breaking point--for it does not live and fight with the flesh or the mind, it fights with will.

It is never too late to make a choice...: faith in decipleship and as a friend, faith against douth, unbelief. We are left to our conciousness and our choices. All know their home, but some chose no to go back to it. I pray this would not be. But it is.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 11, 2013)

*of thanks ... and miracles*

Giving thanks? Always... and "in" everything, even without "natural" understanding.
We are all pushed into that tuff place of trust and thanks daily,
when eyes decieve and the gavel comes down.  In this our faith comes more alive than when we "see" a "divine intervention".

Lately I can honestly say I don't "like" what I see with health issues in my family; but by all means I can carry that precious commodity of thanksgivng "through it".  
Yes, us believers made of mud & clay can see our inner reserve from heaven beckons us to trust and give thanks.

It is also an unusual and welcome wonder when the Hand of Providence moves on natural events. Such was the case a few years back when our neighbors dog, aloof with kind and easygoing temperment, saved the day and quite possibly, our lives by alerting our neighbor to 2 men waiting by our apartment door one morning.  The dog went into a fit of barking, even before our neighbor opened his door. Once he did, he had to hold back his dog from the 2 men, who left our apartment before my wife came out to go to work.  
It is for us an "alter" of sorts, a simple but profound message to us of mercy and provision... yes, from the Father's hand.  Do we base the entirety of our faith/trust on it? Of course not.  "Our hope is in nothing less than Jesus Christ and His righteousness" - goes our fav hymn verse & our "stone" of faith, if you will.

Nevertheless, of miracles or not, God is good in all and through all things; and thanksgiving is both a gift and a joy at all times.

Great thread, scriptures and discussion!


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

Again, the question is not about God allowing things to happen, good or bad.  The question is not about gratitude to God for things.

The question is about a person publically claiming that God showed special favor solely upon him by performing a supernatural intervention into the normal course of events and this proclaimed miracle has nothing to do with glorifying God or furthering His Kingdom, such as changing red lights to green when he is running late.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

If a person makes extrordinary claims that cannot stand under scutiny, it can have negative effects.

False advertising damages the reputation of a product.

Imagine you are a salesman for a weight-loss supplement that you truly believe in.  You have seen the product work thousands of times when taken as directed.  You encounter another salesman for the same product who is promoting it like a snake oil salesman.  He is making outrageous claims that it will cure everything from cancer to male-pattern baldness.  He is making plenty of initial sales but his customers eventually realize that the product does not perform as they had expected.  Due to human nature, they blame the product instead of the salesman.  They tell all their friends that the product is nothing but a bunch of false advertising and none of them are interested in hearing any more about the product.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Again, the question is not about God allowing things to happen, good or bad.  The question is not about gratitude to God for things.
> 
> The question is about a person publically claiming that God showed special favor solely upon him by performing a supernatural intervention into the normal course of events and this proclaimed miracle has nothing to do with glorifying God or furthering His Kingdom, such as changing red lights to green when he is running late.


"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)

What part of "all things" do you not understand?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
> 
> What part of "all things" do you not understand?



If it helps you to understand the scenerio, consider the claim coming from someone who does not truly love God because his actions do not portray that and he does not strive to obey God's commandments except when he is in church, and there is no reason to believe that the event in question has anything to do with God's purpose.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Again, the question is not about God allowing things to happen, good or bad.  The question is not about gratitude to God for things.
> 
> The question is about a person publically claiming that God showed special favor solely upon him by performing a supernatural intervention into the normal course of events and this proclaimed miracle has nothing to do with glorifying God or furthering His Kingdom, such as changing red lights to green when he is running late.



I find it interesting that you find objectionalble spiritual behaviours that have been ongoing since and before the civil war--especially regards my southern friends. Your concern  seems disengenuous however, you who believes that the butterknife in the hands of a good brain can move mountains. Even in error my friends or myself cannot injure you to make juvenile choices and  assessments regards spirituallty, both yours and ours. You are no longer a child.

 And no one has called in a consultant from knows where for an independant assessment. But thanks for offering. The contracts however are usually  handed out internally.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If it helps you to understand the scenerio, consider the claim coming from someone who does not truly love God because his actions do not portray that and he does not strive to obey God's commandments except when he is in church, and there is no reason to believe that the event in question has anything to do with God's purpose.


God's purpose has everything to do with it.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> I find it interesting that you find objectionalble spiritual behaviours that have been ongoing since and before the civil war--
> 
> And no one has called in a consultant from knows where for an independant assessment. But thanks for offering. The contracts however are usually  handed out internally.




Perhaps that is because no one "on the inside" seems to be able to see the problem.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)
> 
> What part of "all things" do you not understand?





gemcgrew said:


> God's purpose has everything to do with it.



If every single thing that occurs is directly orchestrated by God then there can be no such thing as miraculous intervention.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If every single thing that occurs is directly orchestrated by God then there can be no such thing as miraculous intervention.


Focus on what you just said. See if it will come to you.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If every single thing that occurs is directly orchestrated by God then there can be no such thing as miraculous intervention.





gemcgrew said:


> Focus on what you just said. See if it will come to you.



I see too many examples in scripture of intercession and God changing His mind to be able to accept that proposition.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I see too many examples in scripture of intercession and God changing His mind to be able to accept that proposition.


God can never experience change. Perfection will not allow it.

"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end."


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## formula1 (Dec 11, 2013)

*Re:*

Perhaps we spend too much time in overthinking every detail when all we really need is to buy the pearl!

Matthew 13
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.

But then again, selling all is the problem, isn't it!


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## HawgJawl (Dec 11, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> God can never experience change. Perfection will not allow it.



Exodus 32:10-14  Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?  Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Perhaps that is because no one "on the inside" seems to be able to see the problem.



So you are as His NEBOUKADNETSAR! to them?  You have come to carry them away! Good, ah this is so good.  You will then listen to their prophets, you must! Ah... how wonderful! You will dream.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Exodus 32:10-14  Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth?  Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it forever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


God can not change. Perfection and omniscience will not allow it. God is perfect in every way, so any change could only be for the worse.

"For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed."

"The counsel of the LORD standeth for ever, the thoughts of his heart to all generations."

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."

Knowing that God can not change, you have to address your misunderstanding of the verses you provided. This is going to be very difficult for you, perhaps impossible.


----------



## BT Charlie (Dec 11, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes. But also for us and our brother this today: There is a faith that builds its fortresses against douth. It is a early form of faith and the enemy surely does run it over if left at that. But give a man an oppertunity to make a choice on it, on his faith, on belief and it becomes a fortress against the world. And it is made to stand against all that the world can pelt at it. I speak of the fullness of faith that in Christ we are called to.
> 
> Some like our brother though that the faith against doubt was of sufficient belief but when the enemy came by
> himself against the world he was run over without the simple will left for a counter attact, his fate sealed. The faith against doubt is insufficient. Now he is his vanquiser's vessel-- a prisoner of his mind.
> ...



Packing a wallop, Gordo, blessings.

Prayer and fasting, this one may take.  I haven't abandoned my post yet...soiled myself some, again. But this prowling son of a gun...he's exposed, in the light, now...But I picked up a lisp of ellipses, and a bit of a stutter.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Knowing that God can not change, you have to address your misunderstanding of the verses you provided. This is going to be very difficult for you, perhaps impossible.



Do you have an understanding of the verse which you could explain to me, because this verse and many others indicate that God did change.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

There are numerous scriptures related to God reacting to the actions of His people.  God expressed to Moses strong emotions induced by their actions.  Actions invoked furious anger and great wrath.  Actions invoked jealousy.  Actions invoked happiness.  

Moses wrote about "give and take" conversations between him and God.

Deuteronomy 3:26
But because of you the Lord was angry with me and would not listen to me. "That is enough," the Lord said. "Do not speak to me anymore about this matter."


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Do you have an understanding of the verse which you could explain to me, because this verse and many others indicate that God did change.


 
Never His person, nor His charachter/love/nature...
for what it's worth


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Never His person, nor His charachter/love/nature...
> for what it's worth



The kind of change I'm speaking of is the ability for God to grant a miracle based upon prayer that changes the natural course of events.  I think scripture supports such a belief.  Scripture contains examples of God evaluating a situation and reacting to it.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The kind of change I'm speaking of is the ability for God to grant a miracle based upon prayer that changes the natural course of events. I think scripture supports such a belief. Scripture contains examples of God evaluating a situation and reacting to it.


 
Indeed, I agree.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Indeed, I agree.



Thank you.

Gem cannot agree with this because of his belief that everything is predestined.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Gem cannot agree with this because of his belief that everything is predestined.


 
Off topic, but some with such a belief have gone down the road of "universal salvation", which is not supported in scripture.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

Striper,

Since you believe, as I do, that God can grant miracles;

I believe that scripture supports the proposition that God blesses only those who at least attempt to obey His commandments and live as Christ-like as possible.  I believe that scripture supports the proposition that God does not grant blessing to those who do not do the above.

Do you agree with this?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The kind of change I'm speaking of is the ability for God to grant a miracle based upon prayer that changes the natural course of events.  I think scripture supports such a belief.


Omniscience will not allow it, without predestination.


HawgJawl said:


> Scripture contains examples of God evaluating a situation and reacting to it.


What would appear to be a reaction would also be according to His eternal purpose. (Ephesians 3:11)


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> What would appear to be a reaction would also be according to His eternal purpose. (Ephesians 3:11)



Would you agree that Moses believed that God was reacting to the actions of the Israelites and the pleas for mercy from Moses?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 12, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Off topic, but some with such a belief have gone down the road of "universal salvation", which is not supported in scripture.


And some that disagree with such a belief, stick needles into baby dolls at midnight.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Would you agree that Moses believed that God was reacting to the actions of the Israelites and the pleas for mercy from Moses?


Does not matter. Moses belief would be in accordance with God's eternal purpose. As would Pharaoh's hardened heart.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Does not matter. Moses belief would be in accordance with God's eternal purpose.



If God wanted Moses to believe that, and God wanted Moses to write plenty of scripture based upon that belief, and God wanted the scripture that Moses wrote to be a large part of the Bible, and God wanted us to believe the Bible is true, then where does that leave you in saying that what Moses wrote is not actually true?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If God wanted Moses to believe that, and God wanted Moses to write plenty of scripture based upon that belief, and God wanted the scripture that Moses wrote to be a large part of the Bible, and God wanted us to believe the Bible is true, then where does that leave you in saying that what Moses wrote is not actually true?


I have already addressed that with you. It leaves me, pointing out to you, your misunderstanding. 

I can explain it to you, but then you will just stumble into another snare.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If God wanted Moses to believe that, and God wanted Moses to write plenty of scripture based upon that belief, and God wanted the scripture that Moses wrote to be a large part of the Bible, and God wanted us to believe the Bible is true, then where does that leave you in saying that what Moses wrote is not actually true?





gemcgrew said:


> I have already addressed that with you. It leaves me, pointing out to you, your misunderstanding.
> 
> I can explain it to you, but then you will just stumble into another snare.



Let me ask it a different way.  Do you believe that what Moses wrote was inspired by God and was true?


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2013)

Sorry for the late return...



HawgJawl said:


> Striper,
> 
> Since you believe, as I do, that God can grant miracles;
> 
> ...


 
Not at all. 
God causes the rain (Blessing) to come on the righteous and the unrighteous...
God loved us with the "miracle" of redemption... while we were yet sinners...
God is not a man that He should consider a man's rep or stature, or degree of the mans works ... before He blesses with a miracle ("thy faith has saved you... go in peace"),
so that we may be careful NOT to judge another when we pass along the gift of His grace He freely gave to us... to others

make sense?


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> And some that disagree with such a belief, stick needles into baby dolls at midnight.


 
Yeah... ok, and if they do,
it b/c God is there "in it" (the evil work), correct?

Sorry, but I go back to what I have said countless times... 
our Lord cannot be tempted with evel,
and cannot be the author of it...
if His nature is mercy (His redemptive response to one who calls on the Lord in the unregenerate condition he sees of him/herself) and His nature is love.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 12, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Sorry for the late return...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really don't want to have to gather up all the scripture that promises curses to those who do not obey God and blessings to those who do obey God.  You are familiar with those scriptures aren't you?

And as far as rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, I interpret that as a response to the question of why does this sinner have so much success and prosperity.  That is normal life.

What I am talking about here is a supernatural event just for one person, as opposed to normal life.  When I hear a gangster rapper thank God for the huge success of his latest album "Bust A (blanking) Cap In That (blank)" I consider that success to be a part of normal life.  I do not believe that God miraculously intervened in the lives of people who would normally not buy the album and magically forced them to stop what they were doing to go buy the album.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I really don't want to have to gather up all the scripture that promises curses to those who do not obey God and blessings to those who do obey God. You are familiar with those scriptures aren't you?
> 
> And as far as rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, I interpret that as a response to the question of why does this sinner have so much success and prosperity. That is normal life.
> 
> What I am talking about here is a supernatural event just for one person, as opposed to normal life. When I hear a gangster rapper thank God for the huge success of his latest album "Bust A (blanking) Cap In That (blank)" I consider that success to be a part of normal life. I do not believe that God miraculously intervened in the lives of people who would normally not buy the album and magically forced them to stop what they were doing to go buy the album.


 
2 things ...

Certainly as a believer walks in the ways of the Lord, he reaps "benifits" of the wisdom and insight God's word provides. I would not call them miracles per se, but the blessing from the wisdom God passed on to man by way of the scriptures.
I've heard that some in business have also reaped the benifits of the word by applying it to their career and management practises, regardless that they do not make the choice to believe in the Author of the scriptures!

2nd, Yet while unbelieveng man avoids the redemptive work of the cross, they may or may not necessarily reap the whirlwind in this life. Habbackuk went down that dialouge with God, "why does good come to evil men?".  
My answer (and firm trust) is that faith may not always come cloked in goods and earthly treasures, but by far it is better than the desolation of soul and spirit those without Christ will see in the end.

I may not be answering your thoughts well, but lately what I care to cover with all men is the blessing (perhaps miracle in itself) of the Man of Sorrows... whose 'joy' of a different sort transends what is felt and touched 

Miracles? For some... yes, a catalyst to bump them to their knees... for others, a waste of sorts... yet nothing God has accomplished with His redemptive work ever goes wasted,

only misunderstood


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## HawgJawl (Dec 13, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> 2 things ...
> 
> Certainly as a believer walks in the ways of the Lord, he reaps "benifits" of the wisdom and insight God's word provides. I would not call them miracles per se, but the blessing from the wisdom God passed on to man by way of the scriptures.
> I've heard that some in business have also reaped the benifits of the word by applying it to their career and management practises, regardless that they do not make the choice to believe in the Author of the scriptures!
> ...



I understand what you're saying and I place all of it in the category of normal life.

When God does something supernatural that changes the normal course of events, this is not normal life.  This is a great deviation from normal life.

When God parted the Red Sea for the Israelites, it was not part of normal events.  When He "unparted" the Sea upon Pharaoh's army it was not normal life.  In this event, the rain did not fall evenly upon the righteous and the unrighteous.

God blessed David while cursing David's enemies.

I imagine that the citizen's of Jericho did not experience an even application of the "rain" either.

I find many examples in scripture of miraculous events performed by God for the benefit of His people and His people only.

What I am talking about on this thread is that type of supernatural event as opposed to the normal events that pretty much anyone could reasonably expect to experience at one point or another.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Yeah... ok, and if they do,
> it b/c God is there "in it" (the evil work), correct?
> 
> Sorry, but I go back to what I have said countless times...
> ...


"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain."(Psalms 76:10)

"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."(Isaiah 45:7) 

"Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?"(Amos 3:6) 

"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."(Genesis 50:20)


StriperAddict said:


> if His nature is mercy (His redemptive response to one who calls on the Lord in the unregenerate condition he sees of him/herself) and His nature is love.


God is also a God of wrath (Romans 1:18).


----------



## Israel (Dec 13, 2013)

Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.

It is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.

Wrath restrained does not mean it isn't there.
There is a forbearance with which it is not wise to do "experiments".
A patience it is not wise to seek the end of.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 13, 2013)

Guys, I get it... nations and individuals will suffer for their sins; I have/will too, that reap what you sow principle (earthly scale though),
I maintain that "we" do the sinning, regenerate or not...
God is not the author of evil, 
wrath is a totally different thing - 
it might be what one would call eveil done to them (false perspective),
but justified.

(For us believers, the "sorrowful" dicipline of the Lord yields the peaceful fruit of (His) righteousness)


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Guys, I get it... nations and individuals will suffer for their sins; I have/will too, that reap what you sow principle (earthly scale though),
> I maintain that "we" do the sinning, regenerate or not...
> God is not the author of evil,
> wrath is a totally different thing -
> ...


But he is and he has a good purpose for evil. Being the author of something does not make him to be that something.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 13, 2013)

Israel said:


> Knowing the terror of the Lord, we persuade men.
> 
> It is the kindness of God that leads to repentance.
> 
> ...



No it's not.  Looks logical on paper doesn't it brother?
.


----------



## Ronnie T (Dec 13, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> Guys, I get it... nations and individuals will suffer for their sins; I have/will too, that reap what you sow principle (earthly scale though),
> I maintain that "we" do the sinning, regenerate or not...
> God is not the author of evil,
> wrath is a totally different thing -
> ...



God is not the author of evil!
.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> But he is and he has a good purpose for evil. Being the author of something does not make him to be that something.


 
I'm close to agreement on your point - concerning the consequenses of sin.
Authorship however takes on a whole new meaning and could lean towards that "universal" salvation; I can't buy that rig either. 


Time to make my tummy happy


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## HawgJawl (Dec 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> But he is and he has a good purpose for evil. Being the author of something does not make him to be that something.



Where is Satan in all this?  Are you asserting that Satan has absolutely no power?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Where is Satan in all this?  Are you asserting that Satan has absolutely no power?


Satan has zero power apart from God's purpose for Satan. God is omnipotent, all power belongs to him (Psalm 62:11) (Revelation 19:6).


----------



## ambush80 (Dec 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Satan has zero power apart from God's purpose for Satan. God is omnipotent, all power belongs to him (Psalm 62:11) (Revelation 19:6).



I like you.  At least you're consistent.  I feel bad for the guys that have to do mental loopdy loops in order to understand God when the Bible CLEARLY states what he is like.  

....limited freewill....puh--leeeeeese...

Satan is the instrument of God.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Satan has zero power apart from God's purpose for Satan. God is omnipotent, all power belongs to him (Psalm 62:11) (Revelation 19:6).



I agree that Satan is subordinate to God.  I agree that God is more powerful than Satan, so God is capable of constraining Satan if He wishes.

But if Satan only does what God orders Him to do then where is the rebellion?  Where is the battle between good and evil?  Where is the triumph over evil?

If God designed the system so that He orchestrated all the evil, why create Satan just to blame it on?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Where is the battle between good and evil?


Relative to me? Right here and right now? It is in answering your questions as you constantly attempt to undermine the integrity of the Christian worldview.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 13, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Perhaps that is because no one "on the inside" seems to be able to see the problem.



Hawg.  I see the problem, but here's the rub.  For every scenario you posit, there's too many questions left unanswered for me myself personally to make the call.  To do so, well I would have to be God.  I'm not, so I try to do my best with the facilities he provided me and make a determination of the validity of the claim based on that.  If you are interested in how I go about that I guess I could note them.  Is that what you are after?  How do we as Christians differentiate what we deem as true miracles as opposed to chance?


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 13, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Relative to me? Right here and right now? It is in answering your questions as you constantly attempt to undermine the integrity of the Christian worldview.



Gem, I'm not sure I would agree that is what he is doing.  There's no doubt he's asking hard questions, but to be fair, they are legitimate questions that we need to have the answers for if we are going to talk to people about Christianity.  These are questions and challenges that our children are going to be hit with in school.  If we don't/can't answer them and teach them to our children, when they are challenged with these by the secular world, it WILL, AND MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, undermine their faith.  There's a reason many Christian kids lose their convictions in college and walk away from the faith, and much of it has to do with the fact that we as parents haven't undergirded their faith with the support to answer these types of questions.  Just my two cents.


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## oldfella1962 (Dec 13, 2013)

Interesting point. Treating all the things we usually take for granted as miracles/blessings should be a universal attitude for everyone, all religions and beliefs (even atheism.) That is to say an attitude of humble thankfulness and gratitude can really put things in perspective in all our lives.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 14, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Gem, I'm not sure I would agree that is what he is doing.


Relative to me, it is what he is doing. Relative to you, probably not.


SemperFiDawg said:


> There's no doubt he's asking hard questions, but to be fair, they are legitimate questions that we need to have the answers for if we are going to talk to people about Christianity.


SFD, if these are hard questions for you, I see a couple possibilities.
1. You are a new believer that is developing an understanding of basic Bible doctrine.
2. Your worldview is not a proper biblical worldview. 


SemperFiDawg said:


> These are questions and challenges that our children are going to be hit with in school.  If we don't/can't answer them and teach them to our children, when they are challenged with these by the secular world, it WILL, AND MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT IT, undermine their faith.


So what! If these simple questions undermine their faith, that is a good thing and their faith will be strengthened, or perhaps it exposes that they have no faith to begin with. 

Teaching the answers to our children is of little value, unless applied to the heart by the Holy Spirit. Agree?


SemperFiDawg said:


> There's a reason many Christian kids lose their convictions in college and walk away from the faith, and much of it has to do with the fact that we as parents haven't undergirded their faith with the support to answer these types of questions.  Just my two cents.


If they walk away from the faith, why in the world are you still referring to them as Christian? Perhaps these are parent made "Christians", and when they get out from under your roof, they no longer have to pretend?


----------



## Israel (Dec 14, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I agree that Satan is subordinate to God.  I agree that God is more powerful than Satan, so God is capable of constraining Satan if He wishes.
> 
> But if Satan only does what God orders Him to do then where is the rebellion?  Where is the battle between good and evil?  Where is the triumph over evil?
> 
> If God designed the system so that He orchestrated all the evil, why create Satan just to blame it on?



Who said Satan is to blame?
Why "blame" at all?
It is, perhaps, the thing that seeks to assign blame, that is being dealt with.
If I read the account rightly, man was given dominion over all things, the failure to keep the order, and instead listen to a voice that was to be subject to him, brought much disorder.
But...Jesus...Jesus...ahhh Jesus...who didn't blame Adam, didn't blame Eve, didn't blame Satan, even...just did what his Father instructed...ahhh...sweet Jesus.
All things new.
All things of God.
And so the story...seen now with a new beginning, has a new end.


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 15, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Relative to me, it is what he is doing. Relative to you, probably not.
> 
> SFD, if these are hard questions for you, I see a couple possibilities.
> 1. You are a new believer that is developing an understanding of basic Bible doctrine.
> ...



I honestly don't know what to say to that.  It's left me dumbfounded and aghast.  I don't think there is anything to say, so I won't.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

Israel said:


> If I read the account rightly, man was given dominion over all things, the failure to keep the order, and instead listen to a voice that was to be subject to him, brought much disorder.



According to Gem's beliefs, you do not read the account correctly.  Man was given dominion over nothing.  God has always been in complete control over everything good and evil.  There is nothing that man ever did or can do that is not God's "predestined" will.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Relative to me? Right here and right now? It is in answering your questions as you constantly attempt to undermine the integrity of the Christian worldview.



Gem,

How could I possibly do or say anything other than what God makes me to do and say?

If God controls everything, then all my words are at His command which makes my statements divinely inspired.


----------



## Israel (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> According to Gem's beliefs, you do not read the account correctly.  Man was given dominion over nothing.  God has always been in complete control over everything good and evil.  There is nothing that man ever did or can do that is not God's "predestined" will.


I couldn't disagree with Gem over that.
If there are things to be learned...God will see to it, they are.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

Can man do ANYTHING to affect the future or is it ALL dictated by God?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Can man do ANYTHING to affect the future or is it ALL dictated by God?



Let me ask it a different way.

Can man make choices and/or take measures to lower their risk of "something", or is the "something" already predetermined by God and nothing done or not done by man will affect this?


----------



## Israel (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Let me ask it a different way.
> 
> Can man make choices and/or take measures to lower their risk of "something", or is the "something" already predetermined by God and nothing done or not done by man will affect this?



Can I avoid suffering? 
My life and experience have told me no.
Can I embrace it?
Something else has told me, not only embrace...but pierce it, and come out "more" whole on the other side.
For this, I have discovered, I need all the help there is.
So much help in truth, I know it is not me doing it, at all.


----------



## BT Charlie (Dec 16, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I honestly don't know what to say to that.  It's left me dumbfounded and aghast.  I don't think there is anything to say, so I won't.



We have an awesome, loving God.  Be encouraged, SFD.

Good response.  I was worried how that exchange would end.  The Body of Christ consists of many members. 

Oh how He loves us.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 16, 2013)

Israel said:


> Can I avoid suffering?
> My life and experience have told me no.
> Can I embrace it?
> Something else has told me, not only embrace...but pierce it, and come out "more" whole on the other side.
> ...



How far do you take this?
Do you lock your car doors and place valuables out of sight when parking in a bad neighborhood to try to lower your risk of being the victim of an entering auto, or do you leave it all in God's hands?

Do you believe in vaccinations or any other preventative medications or do you believe that any perceived coorelation between disease and medication is an illusion?

Do you brush your teeth or do you believe that cavities and gum disease are handed out by God and nothing you do can affect it?

Are there any choices man can make or actions man can take to affect their future, or is God in complete control of  your future?


----------



## Israel (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How far do you take this?
> Do you lock your car doors and place valuables out of sight when parking in a bad neighborhood to try to lower your risk of being the victim of an entering auto, or do you leave it all in God's hands?
> 
> Do you believe in vaccinations or any other preventative medications or do you believe that any perceived coorelation between disease and medication is an illusion?
> ...



yes.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I honestly don't know what to say to that.  It's left me dumbfounded and aghast.  I don't think there is anything to say, so I won't.


You challenged. I responded. All is well.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How far do you take this?


Take it as far as you can. "All things work together for good". "All things" would include everything. The brushing of teeth and the cavities, the illness and the remedies, etc.

Hawg, this is God's creation. He alone is the eternal being. He alone is the Creator. He alone is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent. He alone is the sole ultimate cause of everything. (Psalms 115:3, 135:6, Isaiah 14:24, 40:12-25, 46:9-11)


----------



## SemperFiDawg (Dec 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> You challenged. I responded. All is well.



It wasn't a challenge.  I was simply attempting to express another view.  Sorry you took it as a personal affront, and now I will leave it with y'all.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 16, 2013)

SemperFiDawg said:


> It wasn't a challenge.  I was simply attempting to express another view.  Sorry you took it as a personal affront, and now I will leave it with y'all.


SFD, It is fine. All is well. I take responsibility for the entirety of our exchange.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Relative to me? Right here and right now? It is in answering your questions as you constantly attempt to undermine the integrity of the Christian worldview.



The Christian world view or the Elected Christian world view?
He is asking some good questions and your only answer is God controls every action and reaction of everything. That's OK, but it isn't a Christian world view. Some Christians believe man has choices and God has choices. Some Christians believe in the power of prayer. Some believe God has emotions and we are made in his image. Some Christians believe Satan rebelled of his own free will.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Christian world view or the Elected Christian world view?
> He is asking some good questions ...



Good questions like #94 which indicate a lack of Spiritual basis or understanding?  That isn't illistration by the absurd, that's blindness to Providence.


----------



## BT Charlie (Dec 17, 2013)

At what point on this forum do Christ followers participate in others' sins? 

At what point do questions simply constitute blasphemy, heresy, and reveal simple depravity that cannot be altered?  

Is it enough to correct and rebuke, for one's own salvation?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Good questions like #94 which indicate a lack of Spiritual basis or understanding?  That isn't illistration by the absurd, that's blindness to Providence.



Question #94 may seem absurd but it is based upon what I hear all the time.

Something "bad" happens to someone and they reason out what they could have done to prevent it while  simultaneously accepting that it was God's will that it happened.

You can't have it both ways.  If it is God's will that it happens, nothing you do can prevent it.  If you truly believe that God is in complete control and nothing happens that God does not direct to happen, what does the word "prevention" even mean?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> You can't have it both ways.  If it is God's will that it happens, nothing you do can prevent it.


"The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:" (Isaiah 14:24) 

"For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27) 



HawgJawl said:


> If you truly believe that God is in complete control and nothing happens that God does not direct to happen, what does the word "prevention" even mean?


I accept "the act of preventing something" as a definition.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

*Re:*

Bad things happen all the time on this earth.  It's just the way it is!  The world is in fact broken and even though many believe in Christ, we are still in the world and still subject to it's brokeness and often the results of its evil. But thanks be to God for He has redeemed us through Christ and our eternity is secure. If your still tossed by stormy seas, perhaps a re-thinking of your way is in order.

1 John 4
18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us. 

Might I offer to you the answer to fear!  Work on Love, love for your heavenly Father and love for your fellow men, believers and unbelievers alike. Know that if you do this you will not fear for you will know the Father holds you in His hands no matter what you face!

May God bless you who choose to love and place your trust in Him!


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:" (Isaiah 14:24)
> 
> "For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?" (Isaiah 14:27)
> 
> ...



When a child wanders into the road and is hit by a car, it was God's will.  There is no way it could have happened if God did not want it to happen.  So the question is, why teach your children not to play in the road, if nothing you do can prevent this.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Bad things happen all the time on this earth.  It's just the way it is!  The world is in fact broken and even though many believe in Christ, we are still in the world and still subject to it's brokeness and often the results of its evil. But thanks be to God for He has redeemed us through Christ and our eternity is secure. If your still tossed by stormy seas, perhaps a re-thinking of your way is in order.
> 
> 1 John 4
> 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.
> ...



I take it that you do not share Gem's belief that man is in control of absolutely nothing.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Good questions like #94 which indicate a lack of Spiritual basis or understanding?  That isn't illistration by the absurd, that's blindness to Providence.



You've never asked yourself any questions on your responsibilities as a man and how that works into God's plan?
You've never wondered why predestination believer's go to the doctor for checkups?
Ever wonder why people get Colonoscopies if our days are numbered and we're gonna die on a certain day, no matter what we do or eat?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

If the only answer available to predestination believers is that God makes all our choices for us, then try applying that logic when your child becomes the victim of a child molestor.  The molestor made no choices and only did what God made him do.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> At what point on this forum do Christ followers participate in others' sins?
> 
> At what point do questions simply constitute blasphemy, heresy, and reveal simple depravity that cannot be altered?
> 
> Is it enough to correct and rebuke, for one's own salvation?



Is that code for "You've made me think about something that I don't have the answers for and it makes me uncomfortable"?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> When a child wanders into the road and is hit by a car, it was God's will.  There is no way it could have happened if God did not want it to happen.  So the question is, why teach your children not to play in the road, if nothing you do can prevent this.


I spent a big part of my childhood playing in the road. God, in his providence, kept me safe. And this includes, to what some would call much riskier behavior, beyond childhood.

"For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that." (James 4:15)


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I spent a big part of my childhood playing in the road. God, in his providence, kept me safe. And this includes, to what some would call much riskier behavior, beyond childhood.
> 
> "For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that." (James 4:15)



I played in the old muddy road too.

But did you ever tell your children to not play in the road?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the only answer available to predestination believers is that God makes all our choices for us, then try applying that logic when your child becomes the victim of a child molestor.  The molestor made no choices and only did what God made him do.


"Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." (Psalms 76:10)


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." (Psalms 76:10)



That doesn't address your view of or reaction to the child molestor.  Should child molestors be punished.  Should that type activity be discouraged in the Catholic Church?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> That doesn't address your view of or reaction to the child molestor.


It actually does but apparently you have zero ability to understand it.


HawgJawl said:


> Should child molestors be punished.  Should that type activity be discouraged in the Catholic Church?


What do you think?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I accept "the act of preventing something" as a definition.



How can a man prevent anything if God makes everything happen.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How can a man prevent anything if God makes everything happen.


Think about it. It should come to you eventually.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> It actually does but apparently you have zero ability to understand it.
> 
> What do you think?





gemcgrew said:


> Think about it. It should come to you eventually.



Your inability to answer simple questions does nothing to support your position.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> I take it that you do not share Gem's belief that man is in control of absolutely nothing.



I would not say the Gem's belief and mine are that far apart.  Rather, we explain what we know of our experience with God in a slightly different way. He would likely hold to a 'zero' role of man and I would hold to a very miminal one.  He might say of the miminal role of man I see as one that was still birthed in God's heart. But Gem, if your reading this please don't think I'm putting words in your mouth.

My belief is that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call!


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Your inability to answer simple questions does nothing to support your position.


Give me something to work with Hawg. A little comprehension is a good place to start. I shouldn't have to work both ends of this.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Give me something to work with Hawg. A little comprehension is a good place to start. I shouldn't have to work both ends of this.



I comprehend what "prevention" is.
I'm asking you how "prevention" can exist if EVERYTHING is directly controlled by a God who does not change His mind.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I comprehend what "prevention" is.
> I'm asking you how "prevention" can exist if EVERYTHING is directly controlled by a God who does not change His mind.


I am going to give you 24 hours on this one. I think you can do this.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I am going to give you 24 hours on this one. I think you can do this.



Or you could explain your strong convictions.

Or you could just admit that you are unable to rectify the clear contradiction.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the only answer available to predestination believers is that God makes all our choices for us, then try applying that logic when your child becomes the victim of a child molestor.  The molestor made no choices and only did what God made him do.


Hawg, The greatest act of moral evil and injustice in the history of mankind was determined and performed by who? 

"Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10)

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:27,28)


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Hawg, The greatest act of moral evil and injustice in the history of mankind was determined and performed by who?
> 
> "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand." (Isaiah 53:10)
> 
> "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:27,28)



There is no question about who orchestrated the plan of salvation for all mankind.  But that does not mean that God orchestrates every child molestation.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> There is no question about who orchestrated the plan of salvation for all mankind.  But that does not mean that God orchestrates every child molestation.


"But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive." (Genesis 50:20)

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28)

Again, "All things" would include "everything".

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it." (Isaiah 46:9-11)


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

Start at the beginning of the Bible and read with the mindset that God made man do everything that man did, and see how far you get.  Every punishment by God is for man doing only what God made him do.

If you make it to Exodus, you'll have plenty of examples of direct punishment for specific acts by man (I mean that god made man do).  

If you make it to the The Ten Commandments, you can summarize them all into one;  Thou shalt not do what I make you do.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Start at the beginning of the Bible and read with the mindset that God made man do everything that man did, and see how far you get.  Every punishment by God is for man doing only what God made him do.
> 
> If you make it to Exodus, you'll have plenty of examples of direct punishment for specific acts by man (I mean that god made man do).
> 
> If you make it to the The Ten Commandments, you can summarize them all into one;  Thou shalt not do what I make you do.


So what! Who do you think you are?

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory" (Romans 9:19-23)


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

How can I say anything that God does not make me say?


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> How can I say anything that God does not make me say?


And this is a good indication of what we are dealing with. 

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If the only answer available to predestination believers is that God makes all our choices for us, then try applying that logic when your child becomes the victim of a child molestor.  The molestor made no choices and only did what God made him do.



The Christian thing to do would be to use your free will and forgive the molestor if you want Jesus to forgive you. This is something a man must do, not God.(forgiving your fellow man)


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> I would not say the Gem's belief and mine are that far apart.  Rather, we explain what we know of our experience with God in a slightly different way. He would likely hold to a 'zero' role of man and I would hold to a very miminal one.  He might say of the miminal role of man I see as one that was still birthed in God's heart. But Gem, if your reading this please don't think I'm putting words in your mouth.
> 
> My belief is that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call!



But you said earlier:
(quote)Might I offer to you the answer to fear! Work on Love, love for your heavenly Father and love for your fellow men, believers and unbelievers alike. Know that if you do this you will not fear for you will know the Father holds you in His hands no matter what you face!

May God bless you who choose to love and place your trust in Him! (end quote)

That is more from man than responding in faith. This is the Great Commandment from the New Testament. Following this commandment isn't something God  ask us to do if we feel like it. Love is the key to Christianity. Love is an emotion God and man have in common. How can love not be FREE?
How can God control everything to the point of man not having any responsibility or accountability. What is the point of rewards & punishment in any form to include blessings?


----------



## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

*Re:*



Artfuldodger said:


> That is more from man than responding in faith.
> 
> How can God control everything to the point of man not having any responsibility or accountability.
> 
> What is the point of rewards & punishment in any form to include blessings?



Art, 
I simply miss the contradiction in the 2 comments!!!

What does responding in faith mean?  It means you do what He says in the best way you know how because you have determined His way to be truth to you! But we do this so imperfectly and God desires us to draw closer and do better... and that is the point of rewards and punishment for those who believe...to lead us to a transformed life.  And of course, man has to respond to God. How can faith grow without a response in faith?  Yet still, it is God who sanctifies!

Hebrews 11
6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Romans 5
3 Not only that, but we rejoice in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces endurance, 4 and endurance produces character, and character produces hope, 5 and hope does not put us to shame, because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us.

John 17
17 Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth. 

1 Thessalonians 5:23 
Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Make no mistake, God does the work, it is you who provide faith (trust and a hope that He will complete that good work in you, though you cannot see it with natural eyes).

The question in my mind is not is it free will or not, but do you love Him and will you lay your free will down for the Master! 

You can do this, yet only with the Power of the Holy Spirit!  He gave you this Gift for this purpose!

If you must put me in any camp of believers, put me in the one who desires to know my heavenly Father and follow Him.  Not much else really matters!

God Bless!


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The Christian thing to do would be to use your free will and forgive the molestor if you want Jesus to forgive you. This is something a man must do, not God.(forgiving your fellow man)



If you are choosing to forgive the molestor for something the molestor chose to do, then neither act is orchestrated by God.  Correct?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> What does responding in faith mean?  It means you do what He says in the best way you know how because you have determined His way to be truth to you! But we do this so imperfectly and God desires us to draw closer and do better... and that is the point of rewards and punishment for those who believe...to lead us to a transformed life.  And of course, man has to respond to God. How can faith grow without a response in faith?  Yet still, it is God who sanctifies!



That sounds like choices and actions made by man.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If you are choosing to forgive the molestor for something the molestor chose to do, then neither act is orchestrated by God.  Correct?



Yes, they were are both acts of men. The molestor and the me forgiving him. We could both be influenced or guided by God, Satan, evil spirits, false gods, or even randomness.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I comprehend what "prevention" is.
> I'm asking you how "prevention" can exist if EVERYTHING is directly controlled by a God who does not change His mind.



Recently on another thread about the actor who died in the fast car accident, some members were not willing to feel any remorse because of his choice of a risky hobby. 
I started another thread comparing risky hobbies and the attitude that it doesn't matter how risky we are, if it's not our time to die, we won't die.
Examples were given of people who survided risky hobbies who died later from not risky behavior as proof.
I was trying to get a feel on why predestination believers take precautions. 
Related to this would be, why do they have any emotions if said emotions were not really theirs? 
I can't really think of a reason to do anything at all.


----------



## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

*Re:*



HawgJawl said:


> That sounds like choices and actions made by man.



Rather, actions by God redeeming man from His death sentence through faith! I only see it as a spiritual response to a God unseen and received! 

You must be born again! That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Art,
> I simply miss the contradiction in the 2 comments!!!
> 
> What does responding in faith mean?  It means you do what He says in the best way you know how because you have determined His way to be truth to you! But we do this so imperfectly and God desires us to draw closer and do better... and that is the point of rewards and punishment for those who believe...to lead us to a transformed life.  And of course, man has to respond to God. How can faith grow without a response in faith?  Yet still, it is God who sanctifies!
> ...



The contradiction I was referring to was you saying that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call and then your suggestion to try giving love to God and fellow man.
If man is not in control, then where is our free will? How can we love? How can God give us the command to Love and then not give us the ability to do it? Why would Jesus tell us to forgive others if we want him to forgive us?
We could debate on just how much free will man has. I don't believe man has total free will. This is what Ambush points out. How can man have Limited Free Will? That is the question that's hard to answer. 
Again, we must have some free will to have the emotions we need to be a Christian or an Athiest. Not all Athiest believe in Free will. Why do we try to prevent accidents and health problems? Why do we still have and show fear?


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Rather, actions by God redeeming man from His death sentence through faith! I only see it as a spiritual response to a God unseen and received!
> 
> You must be born again! That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit!



Does man choose to obey or disobey the Ten Commandments or are they simply Thou shalt not do what I make you do?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Rather, actions by God redeeming man from His death sentence through faith! I only see it as a spiritual response to a God unseen and received!
> 
> You must be born again! That which is flesh is flesh and that which is Spirit is Spirit!



You see everthing as being completely finished once a man is reborn? At that one little certain instance flesh is gone and spirit is born?


----------



## BT Charlie (Dec 17, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Is that code for "You've made me think about something that I don't have the answers for and it makes me uncomfortable"?



Why, no dear Hawg.  For you surely have neither made me think nor pine for an answer. 

My hope rests in Christ Jesus.

One wise man here said, essentially (and to paraphrase for instant application) the Maker of Men does not need me to respond to Hawgisms.  

In addition, this wise man professes that folks in your condition should be given the room to richochet around.

I have little interest in your questions or any answers to them.  My concern is that you may take somebody out as you richochet around.

So it is not to you whom I speak, but to the pool of your potential victims.  And I simply ask when their participation in your conduct constitutes sin?   

This is for them to answer, HJ, not you.  Every knee will bow and make account at appointed judgment.  Each will answer for his own.  That is sufficient contribution from me on discussion and study found on this open forum where most if not all thoughts on religion are welcome.

Proceed at your own peril.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was trying to get a feel on why predestination believers take precautions.


Because the taking precaution is predestined.


Artfuldodger said:


> Related to this would be, why do they have any emotions if said emotions were not really theirs?


But they are theirs. They were created with them, and for a purpose.


Artfuldodger said:


> I can't really think of a reason to do anything at all.


----------



## HawgJawl (Dec 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> In addition, this wise man professes that folks in your condition should be given the room to richochet around.
> 
> That's not your choice to make. Your reaction to me has already been predestined.
> 
> ...



There's no reason to worry about anything I say because it is not me choosing to say it. I am only saying what God has predestined me to say.


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 17, 2013)

I have a headache


----------



## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

*re:*

[QUOTE=Artfuldodger;8342273]You see everthing as being completely finished once a man is reborn? At that one little certain instance flesh is gone and spirit is born?[/QUOTE]

From God's perspective, it is done!


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> I have a headache



Offer your headache to the poor, they have it worse.

And don't worry, be happy. We are what we eat and drink, your fine!


----------



## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

*re:*



HawgJawl said:


> Does man choose to obey or disobey the Ten Commandments or are they simply Thou shalt not do what I make you do?



Forgive me for sounding like Jesus, but I have spoken the truth and you still are missing it, or rather heading back to a circular argument. It seems you rather would care for speaking your argument than hearing truth. Nothing more I can do but pray you have a genuine encounter with the one true God.  And I will!


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> [QUOTE=Artfuldodger;8342273]You see everthing as being completely finished once a man is reborn? At that one little certain instance flesh is gone and spirit is born.
> 
> From God's perspective, it is done!


?  [/QUOTE]

"From God's perspective, it is done!"


 I'm afraid we are talking for God alot lately. Although He is our Beloved and friend and we would surely with swiftness defend his honor, I wonder how it is that lately we here so easily speak or understand devine logics and systems.

I know we mean no harm, but really what is the sense of Jesus ever waxing the beatitudes, "...blessed are the meek, blessed are the peace makes, etc... or a kingdom itself that the reborn do inhabit, if after being reborn--- all is done?


----------



## StriperAddict (Dec 17, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Offer your headache to the poor, they have it worse.
> 
> And don't worry, be happy. We are what we eat and drink, your fine!


 
Bless you brother!  
You, Charlie and Eddie wrapped this up nicely with good tidings to ponder. So I'll depart for home and away from this present banter which I have no contributions for.
God bless!


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> I would not say the Gem's belief and mine are that far apart.  Rather, we explain what we know of our experience with God in a slightly different way. He would likely hold to a 'zero' role of man and I would hold to a very miminal one.  He might say of the miminal role of man I see as one that was still birthed in God's heart. But Gem, if your reading this please don't think I'm putting words in your mouth.
> 
> My belief is that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call!


I see no problem with that. I see the "responding in faith" as God's eternal purpose... evidenced in time.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 17, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> At what point on this forum do Christ followers participate in others' sins?
> 
> At what point do questions simply constitute blasphemy, heresy, and reveal simple depravity that cannot be altered?
> 
> Is it enough to correct and rebuke, for one's own salvation?



Now those are "good questions".
My impression has been that they have remained unspoken by some members.
Bless you for voicing them, Brother.


----------



## hummerpoo (Dec 17, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> You've never asked yourself any questions on your responsibilities as a man and how that works into God's plan?
> You've never wondered why predestination believer's go to the doctor for checkups?
> Ever wonder why people get Colonoscopies if our days are numbered and we're gonna die on a certain day, no matter what we do or eat?



Of coarse I have ask those questions;
I was given the answers.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> [QUOTE=Artfuldodger;8342273]You see everthing as being completely finished once a man is reborn? At that one little certain instance flesh is gone and spirit is born?



From God's perspective, it is done![/QUOTE]

From the prospective of Jesus dying on the cross, it is done.
Our security sealed so to speak.
From God's perspective, is our life on the Earth as a reborn spirit, living in a body of flesh over? Does God not ask us of anything more? In that respect, is it done? 
We don't have to show any more obedience, love, forgiveness, or other spiritual fruits? 
I think in the respect of what God wants us to do, it is far from done. As we try to become more Christlike, we must use 100% of our free will. Can I at least have 10% free will? I'll need all 100% of that 10% to show love, faith, hope, obedience, responsibility, respect, compassion, meekness, and purpose in general.


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## Israel (Dec 17, 2013)

Joh 21:20  Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee? 
Joh 21:21  Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 
Joh 21:22  Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

hummerpoo said:


> Of coarse I have ask those questions;
> I was given the answers.



I too believe God makes it quite clear what our responsibilities are.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 17, 2013)

Art, Formula1 and Gordo,
Y'all have the quotes so messed up, I don't know who is saying what.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Bad things happen all the time on this earth.  It's just the way it is!  The world is in fact broken and even though many believe in Christ, we are still in the world and still subject to it's brokeness and often the results of its evil. But thanks be to God for He has redeemed us through Christ and our eternity is secure. If your still tossed by stormy seas, perhaps a re-thinking of your way is in order.
> 
> 1 John 4
> 18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.
> ...



First in post #105, you said "work on love."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> I would not say the Gem's belief and mine are that far apart.  Rather, we explain what we know of our experience with God in a slightly different way. He would likely hold to a 'zero' role of man and I would hold to a very miminal one.  He might say of the miminal role of man I see as one that was still birthed in God's heart. But Gem, if your reading this please don't think I'm putting words in your mouth.
> 
> My belief is that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call!



Now a little later in post 119, you are saying "man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding to faith."


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

formula1 said:


> [QUOTE=Artfuldodger;8342273]You see everthing as being completely finished once a man is reborn? At that one little certain instance flesh is gone and spirit is born?



From God's perspective, it is done![/QUOTE]

In post #146, you quoted me and then said "from God's perspective it is done." 

I apologize if I misquote you or anyone else. It does get confusing at times.


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## formula1 (Dec 17, 2013)

Art, 

I deleted 2 of my posts because the quotes were not right as Gem said. Will try to clean it up tomorrow. Sorry for the confusion.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, Formula1 and Gordo,
> Y'all have the quotes so messed up, I don't know who is saying what.



God is not the Author of confusion.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 17, 2013)

When we get into God controlling everything, what separates us from being just man? Some Christians believe we become deified. Could this explain Melchizedek?We have the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus had the Holy Spirit. Jesus only did what his Father told him to do. We can only do what God tells us to do. 
If we are no longer flesh but reborn spirits, with God within us making all of our thoughts and decisions, why aren't we deified?
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren (Romans 8:29).
28 for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, 'For we are also His offspring.' 29 Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man's devising. (Acts 17:28-30) 
20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming (1 Corinthians 15:20-23).
18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures (James 1:18).
4 These were redeemed from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb (Revelation 14:4).
16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches (Romans 11:16). 
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; 21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: 23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me. 24 "Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. 26 And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them." (John 17:20-26)


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## HawgJawl (Dec 18, 2013)

This is an honest question that I am unable to work out in my head:

From a predestination point of view, if all man's actions are directly controlled by God, how is it possible to sin against God?


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## formula1 (Dec 18, 2013)

*Re:*

Art,

This statement in Post #119 ("My belief is that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call! ") does not confict with encouraging someone to love others (Post #105) , at least from my viewpoint.

As I see it, the Love we have for God and for others flows from greatfulness for the gift of salvation through grace we have received from the Father.  It is a result of our response in faith and thereby an extension of the same faith. It comes to us as a gift from the Father as a result again of our response to Him in faith.  The Holy Spirit provides this gift, albeit in different measures to the one who believes (trusts) Christ for saving grace.  A further truth (1 John) is Love working in us in fact identifies us as 'in the faith'.  God's love working in us and through us identifies us as followers of Christ.   

Again, I know that I do not control my eternal salvation, God does for it is He who grants it. But my response to Him who grants it coupled with the gift of the Holy Spirit to bear witness to my Spirit helps me trust it is secure.  "The Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are children of God".  I once had a scare(read this as fear) where for a brief time that I could no longer breathe and wondered during that time, would I live? I determined at that moment that the Father truly does have the eternal in His hands and it belongs to no one else. I trust that.  I can trust no other, including myself!  What would you do if you found yourself with no control over your own life as I did? Hopefully, you will trust in the One who holds you in His hands! Everyone without exception is going to face that moment!!!

A man is justified by a response to God in faith. I believe it is man's choice ( but some believe it to be God's predestined choice). Regardless, He accepted me through faith in Christ and as a result I became born again.  But being born again is not an end, but a beginning. Yes, in God's eye, it is finished, but man (in this life) still has a lifetime of growing into the man God desires.  He takes care of this too, through sanctification by the Holy Spirit.  I trust He will never leave us or forsake us.  He will complete the work He began in us.  I trust that also, as I am these days quickly corrected by the Spirit if my flesh gets in the way of God's discipline.  I am very much still a work in progress!

Each day this flesh man still wants to control his own life.  I must 'die daily' to keep that flesh man under subjection to the Spirit of God.  The Apostle Paul had the same issue and I can relate. The 'free will' you have is there in the flesh and doesn't lie to you or go away without a fight. Rather you have to choose to bring it under subjection to the Spirit.  Once you are a believer, you have to choose to make that happen every single day! I understand you here, I have struggles too, but it is worth the fight.  God gave you the Power of the Holy Spirit for this battle. "I will not leave you as orphans", He said! I believe it and I am a witness of its truth!!

I hope I have brought clarity to you in at least some of my comments in the posts above.  If not, ask what you will, but let's take it private and I will do everything I can to give you peace and understanding! May God richly bless your effort to know and understand Him.

Eddie (aka formula1)


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## hobbs27 (Dec 18, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> This is an honest question that I am unable to work out in my head:
> 
> From a predestination point of view, if all man's actions are directly controlled by God, how is it possible to sin against God?



That's a good question. I have never had an answer to satisfy my wondering as to how predestination works in the case of the rich man that was in he11---- he desired for Lazarus to go back to warn his family to repent or they would find themselves in he11 also. This from a man that had faced Gods judgement and had gained knowledge of the other side.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 18, 2013)

formula1 said:


> Art,
> 
> This statement in Post #119 ("My belief is that man is in control of absolutely nothing eternal, except perhaps responding in faith to His call! ") does not confict with encouraging someone to love others (Post #105) , at least from my viewpoint.
> 
> ...



Thanks for this hearfelt responce using your own thoughts guided by the Holy Spirit. Ya'll explained it perfectly as to what the both of you understand.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 18, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> That's a good question. I have never had an answer to satisfy my wondering as to how predestination works in the case of the rich man that was in he11---- he desired for Lazarus to go back to warn his family to repent or they would find themselves in he11 also. This from a man that had faced Gods judgement and had gained knowledge of the other side.



Jesus provided the example for how we should CHOOSE to live our lives.  Jesus taught us to CHOOSE to love each other.

Jesus knew whether or not man had a choice in our actions.  If His Father controlled everything we do, why the instructions?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> That's a good question. I have never had an answer to satisfy my wondering as to how predestination works in the case of the rich man that was in he11---- he desired for Lazarus to go back to warn his family to repent or they would find themselves in he11 also. This from a man that had faced Gods judgement and had gained knowledge of the other side.



The answer is in "And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Even if Lazarus had gone back from the dead and warned them, it would make no difference. "Salvation is of the Lord" and not for everyone.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 18, 2013)

God speaks as if man has a choice in his actions;

Isaiah 65:12
I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will fall in the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.

Jesus speaks as if man has a choice in his actions;

John 7:17
Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 18, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> God speaks as if man has a choice in his actions;
> 
> Isaiah 65:12
> I will destine you for the sword, and all of you will fall in the slaughter; for I called but you did not answer, I spoke but you did not listen. You did evil in my sight and chose what displeases me.
> ...


Choice is not the issue, human autonomy is.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 18, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Choice is not the issue, human autonomy is.



Autonomy, as it relates to the consequences for actions and choices?


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## Israel (Dec 18, 2013)

Hawg...I think of Abraham.
Of how, and what he learned in his walk of faith.
He heard a call and got up from his father's house and lands...and journeyed into a land to be shown to him.
We have only received a part of his doings, but what we have received...we have.
At one point he thought it necessary to speak a falsehood concerning his wife, Sarah, to Abimelech, a King...only to discover both his lie (half truth) was uncovered...and that the Lord had intervened to preserve his relationship to her unblemished...in a dream...despite his "seeming" shortcoming.
I say "seeming" for God knew the issues already at work in Abraham's walk in this faith, and indeed, held him blameless in the account...even telling this King that Abraham, one of God's chosen...would pray for him to keep his life.
God didn't "blame" Abraham, indeed, he even exalted him in the King's sight through the dream, and as far as I know, Abraham received no rebuke from the Lord in the dealings.

What I take away, you are under no compulsion to, but nevertheless, I say it. Abraham was learning that this God who had called him, and this faith he was walking in, though not totally revealed at once...was the same God and faith that would move him...and PRESERVE him...and his household.
We are, all of us, learning just how deep this preservation of God is.
There may come a time when we discover...we need not brush our teeth to keep our pearly whites...or not stand in the middle of a busy road for fear. That is up to God to reveal to each...as we walk in whatever light we have already been given. To him who has, more will be given...
What I would, if I may, caution you in is this...be careful how one judges the "doings" of another as compared to how you believe their confession ought to stack up relative to what you see as the outworking of the faith in Christ they claim.
I don't despise your weakness as a man in Christ, especially after you shared in candor a deep trial of your faith you have endured.
I will not presume any failure on your part, nor a malice on God's part, in any of it. Nor will you, I trust, not by boast, but by experience and his faithfulness...ever be able to convince me of the latter.
I have a deep hope to be found as one who has pinned all hope in the resurrection of Jesus, the righteous one.
To that end I also confess my own weaknesses, perhaps perceived by you, in the coming to learn the full meaning and experience of that resurrection.
What remains of contradiction in my walk I submit as my need to see more...to be as fully apprehended by me...as I have been apprehended...by another.
I believe this hope and trust also abides in many here, for I have seen it, and tasted it.
Who is to say... that the "drunk" driver who learns that his meager faith in Christ is also sufficient to not only have cops blind to his transgression, but also sufficient to deliver him from any (perhaps) dependance upon alcohol at all for pleasure? He might even come to see he is "here" not for his own sake...but for him who called him and chose him...and that being "drunk" might not be the best testimony to the name he glories in in his present testimony.
It could be wise to not despise his testimony of grace...as misguided and simple as it may appear.
It is easy to poke at holes where we perceive them...it is quite another thing to be as one who would stand in that breach...till we all be made whole in glory and fullness of His stature.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 19, 2013)

Thank you for your post Israel.

You make a good argument for why I should stop asking questions and just have blind faith.  I've been told this in many different ways for a few decades now.

Your post indicates that you believe man has a choice in his actions.
I've read posts by many, many people on this forum who believe that man chooses who he will follow and whether he will obey God.

Why then does no one clearly profess this belief here on this thread?  Why does no one challenge the assertion that man decides nothing, when they obviously do not believe it?  Why are my questions concerning this belief viewed as absurd but the belief itself is not viewed as absurd?


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## Israel (Dec 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Thank you for your post Israel.
> 
> You make a good argument for why I should stop asking questions and just have blind faith.  I've been told this in many different ways for a few decades now.
> 
> ...



It could seem that way ...just have "blind faith"...but I am not convinced that's where I'm headed with it. More like "use what you got"...and all the other answers will come.
But, if it's less a matter of you sincerely wanting to know...as much as seeking to show others what they don't...

well, bro...been down that road many times...till I found out I had permission to really enjoy salvation, regardless of my self righteous tendency to make sure everyone else was in line with my thinking.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 19, 2013)

Israel said:


> It could seem that way ...just have "blind faith"...but I am not convinced that's where I'm headed with it. More like "use what you got"...and all the other answers will come.
> But, if it's less a matter of you sincerely wanting to know...as much as seeking to show others what they don't...
> 
> well, bro...been down that road many times...till I found out I had permission to really enjoy salvation, regardless of my self righteous tendency to make sure everyone else was in line with my thinking.



I freely admit that some of my questions are not a sincere search for answers.  I present many rhetorical questions, which are usually in response to a perceived contradiction.  I admit that when the answers I receive appear to me to demonstrate inconsistency or avoidance of the primary issue, I often respond sarcastically.  I do not mean this as a personal insult and I hope that no one takes it as such.

In regard to the belief that everything is predetermined, I honestly cannot comprehend how sin can exist in that scenario.  I honestly do not understand how a person can do anything against God’s will if God controls everything that everyone does.  If my questions regarding this seem absurd, perhaps it’s because I’m having difficulty comprehending a belief that seems absurd to me.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Thank you for your post Israel.
> 
> You make a good argument for why I should stop asking questions and just have blind faith.  I've been told this in many different ways for a few decades now.
> 
> ...



Possibly after about 10 threads they just get tired of it. Many Christians like myself who believe we have some control haven't come up with a way to explain it and don't feel comfortable addressing the issue. 
They know someone is going to say "either God is in total control or he isn't."


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## StriperAddict (Dec 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I freely admit that some of my questions are not a sincere search for answers. I present many rhetorical questions, which are usually in response to a perceived contradiction. I admit that when the answers I receive appear to me to demonstrate inconsistency or avoidance of the primary issue, I often respond sarcastically. I do not mean this as a personal insult and I hope that no one takes it as such.
> 
> In regard to the belief that everything is predetermined, I honestly cannot comprehend how sin can exist in that scenario. I honestly do not understand how a person can do anything against God’s will if God controls everything that everyone does. If my questions regarding this seem absurd, perhaps it’s because I’m having difficulty comprehending a belief that seems absurd to me.


 
I now better understand where you are coming from also.

Allow this "simpleton" to add: if God has robotic - like control of all, then why is there such an array of cultural and personal differences in earth and in the body of Christ itself?  
My take is that there would be a total lack of beauty... of men made in His image, and of the earth we tread, in seeing and declaring Him with each our own unique way. 

Maybe I'm coming "off topic", if so, my pardon.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 19, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I freely admit that some of my questions are not a sincere search for answers.  I present many rhetorical questions, which are usually in response to a perceived contradiction.  I admit that when the answers I receive appear to me to demonstrate inconsistency or avoidance of the primary issue, I often respond sarcastically.  I do not mean this as a personal insult and I hope that no one takes it as such.
> 
> In regard to the belief that everything is predetermined, I honestly cannot comprehend how sin can exist in that scenario.  I honestly do not understand
> how a person can do anything against God’s will if God controls everything that everyone does.  If my questions regarding this seem absurd, perhaps it’s because I’m having difficulty comprehending a belief that seems absurd to me.



God.Hawg. BTCharlie. 

It is your insincerity in the face of a Holy God that gives me pause, a deep concern of being part of what seems unholy, disrespectful, irreverent.  I praise Israel for speaking to God's best for you, Hawg. May the Lord bless you and keep you.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 19, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> I now better understand where you are coming from also.
> 
> Allow this "simpleton" to add: if God has robotic - like control of all, then why is there such an array of cultural and personal differences in earth and in the body of Christ itself?
> My take is that there would be a total lack of beauty... of men made in His image, and of the earth we tread, in seeing and declaring Him with each our own unique way.
> ...



Not off topic at all. The big question to me is how would controlling us like robots glorify God? I don't see any glory in making me love or serve him. Where is the glory in forced obedience?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In regard to the belief that everything is predetermined, I honestly cannot comprehend how sin can exist in that scenario.


Simple. It was predetermined for sin to exist.



HawgJawl said:


> I honestly do not understand how a person can do anything against God’s will if God controls everything that everyone does.


Simple. Nobody can.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> I freely admit that some of my questions are not a sincere search for answers.  I present many rhetorical questions, which are usually in response to a perceived contradiction.  I admit that when the answers I receive appear to me to demonstrate inconsistency or avoidance of the primary issue, I often respond sarcastically.  I do not mean this as a personal insult and I hope that no one takes it as such.
> 
> In regard to the belief that everything is predetermined, I honestly cannot comprehend how sin can exist in that scenario.  I honestly do not understand how a person can do anything against God’s will if God controls everything that everyone does.  If my questions regarding this seem absurd, perhaps it’s because I’m having difficulty comprehending a belief that seems absurd to me.





gemcgrew said:


> Simple. It was predetermined for sin to exist.
> 
> 
> Simple. Nobody can.



If no one can do anything against God's will, then what is your definition of sin?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 20, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> God.Hawg. BTCharlie.
> 
> It is your insincerity in the face of a Holy God that gives me pause, a deep concern of being part of what seems unholy, disrespectful, irreverent.  I praise Israel for speaking to God's best for you, Hawg. May the Lord bless you and keep you.



Is it irreverent to speak against a professed belief when you believe it to be unbiblical?  How much respect should be shown to an unbiblical belief?


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## StriperAddict (Dec 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not off topic at all. The big question to me is how would controlling us like robots glorify God? I don't see any glory in making me love or serve him. Where is the glory in forced obedience?


 
Exactly, spot on my brother


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If no one can do anything against God's will, then what is your definition of sin?


Transgression of the law.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Not off topic at all. The big question to me is how would controlling us like robots glorify God?


Art, if you could build a robot that served your purpose every day, wouldn't that be pretty cool?
How much more control does the Creator have over his creation than you could have over a robot? And he would be over you and the robot.



Artfuldodger said:


> I don't see any glory in making me love or serve him. Where is the glory in forced obedience?


Create your own universe and then you might see it.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 20, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Transgression of the law.



"Thou shalt not kill" is one of God's laws.

When God killed in the Old Testament, it was not a sin because God cannot sin against Himself.

When God directed the Israelites to kill, it was not a sin because God directed it to happen.

From a predestination standpoint, is there a scenerio in which a man can kill without it being directed by God?


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## hummerpoo (Dec 20, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, if you could build a robot that served your purpose every day, wouldn't that be pretty cool?
> How much more control does the Creator have over his creation than you could have over a robot? And he would be over you and the robot.
> 
> 
> Create your own universe and then you might see it.



Perspective


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> From a predestination standpoint, is there a scenerio in which a man can kill without it being directed by God?


Of course not.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 20, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> Is it irreverent to speak against a professed belief when you believe it to be unbiblical?  How much respect should be shown to an unbiblical belief?



Mr. Hawg, you give God is holy due, genuinely, and I may discuss these little trivia questions you ponder. First thing's first.  Blessings.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> Art, if you could build a robot that served your purpose every day, wouldn't that be pretty cool?
> How much more control does the Creator have over his creation than you could have over a robot? And he would be over you and the robot.
> 
> 
> Create your own universe and then you might see it.



If I had the power to create creatures for my glory, I would make them in my image.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2013)

I would create dogs instead of robots. Dogs would show me way more obedience & love than robots. Some of these dogs might turn on me. If they did I would wipe them from my kingdom.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> If I had the power to create creatures for my glory, I would make them in my image. ...
> .
> .
> .
> ...I would create dogs


I knew there was something different about you. I just couldn't put my finger on it until now.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 20, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> I knew there was something different about you. I just couldn't put my finger on it until now.



I figured this response already. It was your analogy that I could create. I chose not to create robots as I have more in common with dogs. I do believe dogs are made more in my image than robots and have no problem with the comparison. I feel dogs would show me more love & obedience than robots. I can't speak for God but I do feel from the bottom of my heart that dogs(his creation) have more in common(emotions) with God than robots do.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 21, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> I figured this response already. It was your analogy that I could create. I chose not to create robots as I have more in common with dogs. I do believe dogs are made more in my image than robots and have no problem with the comparison. I feel dogs would show me more love & obedience than robots. I can't speak for God but I do feel from the bottom of my heart that dogs(his creation) have more in common(emotions) with God than robots do.


No matter what analogy you come up with, the Apostle Paul is going to look you right in the eye and say,"Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?"

You just can't believe that there is anything out there, greater than yourself. You demand your own power and self existence.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> "Thou shalt not kill" is one of God's laws.
> 
> When God killed in the Old Testament, it was not a sin because God cannot sin against Himself.
> 
> ...





gemcgrew said:


> Of course not.




So, from a predestination standpoint, If killing is not a sin when it is directed by God, and man cannot kill (or do anything) that is not directed by God, how can killing be a sin?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So, from a predestination standpoint, If killing is not a sin when it is directed by God, and man cannot kill (or do anything) that is not directed by God, how can killing be a sin?


When God directed it to be an act of rebellion. These are very simple questions Hawg. Your problem is that you are convinced that man is free. For man to be free, he must have his own power. All power belongs to God. You just don't believe in God.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> When God directed it to be an act of rebellion. These are very simple questions Hawg. Your problem is that you are convinced that man is free. For man to be free, he must have his own power. All power belongs to God. You just don't believe in God.



Just because I don't believe in your definition of God does not mean I don't believe in God.

"When God directed it to be an act of rebellion"

The rebellion is not from the man if the man has no control over his actions.  Can God rebel against Himself?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 23, 2013)

Hawg, in what you have just written, do you come at your writing from a personal perspective that God of the Bible is who He says He is, and do you say you believe in that?  I honestly am not clear on that point.

I have the flu and if I cannot make it back ... have a blessed Christmas, forum friend.  I do hope you have a wonderful time with family and friends.  As always, blessings on your head, Mr. Hawg.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> When God directed it to be an act of rebellion. These are very simple questions Hawg. Your problem is that you are convinced that man is free. For man to be free, he must have his own power. All power belongs to God. You just don't believe in God.



If man cannot choose whether to obey or disobey God's direction, how can man rebel?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> If man cannot choose whether to obey or disobey God's direction, how can man rebel?


He is made rebellious. Rebelling is what he does. Why is this so difficult?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

BT Charlie said:


> Hawg, in what you have just written, do you come at your writing from a personal perspective that God of the Bible is who He says He is, and do you say you believe in that?  I honestly am not clear on that point.
> 
> I have the flu and if I cannot make it back ... have a blessed Christmas, forum friend.  I do hope you have a wonderful time with family and friends.  As always, blessings on your head, Mr. Hawg.



My faith wavers.  Sometimes I find myself defaulting to the mindset I was raised in and believed for the majority of my life.  Sometimes I find myself searching for any indication in the world around me that God is indeed actively involved.  

When I see no evidence of God’s involvement in our lives today, as described in scripture, this does not mean I do not believe in God.  I believe scripture supports the belief that God has, on many occasions in the past, stepped back and simply observed while letting man make a mess of things.  I believe that God has the authority to do this and no book written by man can restrict what God can and cannot do.

I hope you get well soon and are able to enjoy the Christmas holidays.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> He is made rebellious. Rebelling is what he does. Why is this so difficult?



The reason it is difficult for me to understand is this:

If God made certain men rebellious by nature and allowed them to do as they wished, their actions (even though not their fault) could be disobedient to God.  Their actions could be blasphemous or insulting to God.

But if men (even rebellious men) make no choices of their own and all their actions are directed by God, then it is actually God who is committing those acts through man.  In this case, God would be sinning through man.  God would be blaphemous or insulting to Himself.  

Disobedience would be impossible.  Man could not be disobedient to a God who controls man's every move, and God cannot be disobedient to Himself.


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## BT Charlie (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> My faith wavers.  Sometimes I find myself defaulting to the mindset I was raised in and believed for the majority of my life.  Sometimes I find myself searching for any indication in the world around me that God is indeed actively involved.
> 
> When I see no evidence of God’s involvement in our lives today, as described in scripture, this does not mean I do not believe in God.  I believe scripture supports the belief that God has, on many occasions in the past, stepped back and simply observed while letting man make a mess of things.  I believe that God has the authority to do this and no book written by man can restrict what God can and cannot do.
> 
> I hope you get well soon and are able to enjoy the Christmas holidays.



Many thanks, Hawg.  This provides me much joy, for you.
The Kingdom needs you brother.  It would be a great gift to many here if you'd find yourself in a small group of believers working this out in real life.  Hear the testimonies of witnesses, here and now, and see if this is not precisely the evidence in, of, through the Holy Spirit, which you seek.

Whatever you do, keep pressing!


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## gemcgrew (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason it is difficult for me to understand is this:
> 
> If God made certain men rebellious by nature and allowed them to do as they wished, their actions (even though not their fault) could be disobedient to God.  Their actions could be blasphemous or insulting to God.
> 
> ...


It is impossible for God to sin. You have to be mindful of God as you attempt to think this through. The all knowing, all power, God of the Bible.

Quick inferior example:
Hawg is authoring a story that includes the characters gemcgrew and artfuldodger. The author has artfuldodger rise up and murder gemcgrew. Is Hawg guilty of murder?

How much more do you think the Creator and Author of all things, can distance himself from your accusation?


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

gemcgrew said:


> It is impossible for God to sin. You have to be mindful of God as you attempt to think this through. The all knowing, all power, God of the Bible.
> 
> Quick inferior example:
> Hawg is authoring a story that includes the characters gemcgrew and artfuldodger. The author has artfuldodger rise up and murder gemcgrew. Is Hawg guilty of murder?
> ...



In your example, Artfuldodger did exactly as I directed him to do, so he was not disobedient to me.  It is impossible for him to be disobedient to me because I direct his actions.  No matter what his actions are, they are always obedient.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> In your example, Artfuldodger did exactly as I directed him to do, so he was not disobedient to me.  It is impossible for him to be disobedient to me because I direct his actions.  No matter what his actions are, they are always obedient.


And that is why the example is inferior. But the author created artfuldodger to be a character of disobedience. Disobedience is all that he can ever be.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 23, 2013)

So did God design the rebellious man to always do the exact opposite of what God directs him to do, kinda like "opposite day"?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding exactly "what" the rebellious man is disobedient to.  If God directs the rebellious man to do a specific act that is against the Ten Commandments, and the rebellious man has no choice but to do as directed, his act may be contrary to the Ten Commandments but at the same time is obedient to the One who wrote them and directed his actions.

Which has more authority, the Ten Commandments or the author of them?


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## gemcgrew (Dec 23, 2013)

HawgJawl said:


> So did God design the rebellious man to always do the exact opposite of what God directs him to do, kinda like "opposite day"?
> 
> Perhaps I am misunderstanding exactly "what" the rebellious man is disobedient to.  If God directs the rebellious man to do a specific act that is against the Ten Commandments, and the rebellious man has no choice but to do as directed, his act may be contrary to the Ten Commandments but at the same time is obedient to the One who wrote them and directed his actions.
> 
> Which has more authority, the Ten Commandments or the author of them?


I see improvement here. Keep thinking and be mindful of God. God is sovereign. Man is not free.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 23, 2013)

When discussing predestination/election  we focus on the non believers and God controlling them to do what they do.
Now when we discuss Christian's actions being controlled by God the fan base of believers increases tremendiously to include free will believers. 
Some Christians believe non believers aren't controlled by God but Christians are. That can get confusing.


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## HawgJawl (Dec 28, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> When discussing predestination/election  we focus on the non believers and God controlling them to do what they do.
> Now when we discuss Christian's actions being controlled by God the fan base of believers increases tremendiously to include free will believers.
> Some Christians believe non believers aren't controlled by God but Christians are. That can get confusing.




Do predestination/election church sermons include any suggestions on how the congregation "should try" to live their lives, knowing full well that they have no choice in how they will lives?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 13, 2014)

In an effort to not derail another thread, I chose to post this here.

(I know that sounds funny to some of you because I derail a lot of threads)

In another thread about miracles the following was stated:
“A life transformed by the Power of Christ is far more amazing than a mountain moved!”

To which I asked:
“A life transformed by the counseling of a psychiatrist is a miraculous example of what?”

The response was:
“There are no changed lives without God involved! Period!”

To which I asked:
“Does that include lives changed for the worse, such as becoming a serial killer, or only lives changed for the better?”

I was raised with the understanding that all good things come from God.  When I asked about the bad things, I was told that they were caused by man’s sin and God had nothing to do with those things.  This line of thinking contradicts itself because it completely ignores omission or neglect when some situations turn out well and other similar situations turn out badly and the stated cause for all good result is God’s intervention.  If God is intimately involved in everyone’s lives, and all good results are caused by God’s intervention, then all bad results occur because God chose not to intervene.

A predestination-type view is not contradictory when it assigns all good and all bad to God.

A view of God only occasionally becoming involved in a few issues is not contradictory because it leaves room for most things to work out naturally or randomly.  

But if you believe that God is actively involved in every aspect of your life and everything good that happens to you is solely due to an act of God, then you have given up your ability to separate God from the bad things that happen to you.  You must accept that everything bad that happens to you is either an act of God or a decision by God to not prevent the bad thing from occurring.

If your way of distancing God from the bad things is to say that God wants to help you if you would listen to Him but he lets you make your own decisions and get into your own trouble, then this opens the door for you to be able to make your own successes also.  This allows for some good things to come from your own doing and not all of them must be from God.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 13, 2014)

Good summary.  Give me some time to do a bit of research as I know both Augustine and Plantinga have addressed this issue as I have heard them referenced in the past.  I will review them and get back to you soon.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 15, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> In an effort to not derail another thread, I chose to post this here.
> 
> (I know that sounds funny to some of you because I derail a lot of threads)
> 
> ...



I guess the simplest way for me to think about this is as such.  There are 2 agents at work; God and man.  

The question then would be where does the Soverignty of God stop, and that of mans free will begin?   Or is that an incorrect paradigm altogether? It certainly isn't Biblical.  The Bible clearly teaches that God is Soverign over all of creation period.  That being said it's also quiet evident that man does operate within a domain of free will.  Thus there is what appears to be a paradox which gives pause and opens up questions such as the one you pose.  

If God is completely soverign then he is in control of the whole show,  the good as well as the bad.  And if this is the case then why would a completely benevolent God allow for evil if he has the power to erase it?  

You noted just some of the issues that arise when we try to distance a benevolent God from the evil we observe.  

I'm gonna give this a shot.  I initially started to go back and read what some others have written on this, but to be honest I felt like maybe I should just stick to scripture for the sole reason that no matter what others have said on this, if it doesn't align with scripture, it's a waste of time so why bother.

So I've tossed this around a few days and for better or worse this is where I'm at.  I thought about Job.  This picture certainly has all the core principles we are wrestling with, Gods soverignty,  both blessings and curses befalling the same individual, his questions to God about what all this means and Gods answer.

Before I go into it.  You know the story.  Do you find any answers in it?

And one more.  The parable of the wheat and the tares?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 16, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> I guess the simplest way for me to think about this is as such.  There are 2 agents at work; God and man.
> 
> The question then would be where does the Soverignty of God stop, and that of mans free will begin?   Or is that an incorrect paradigm altogether? It certainly isn't Biblical.  The Bible clearly teaches that God is Soverign over all of creation period.  That being said it's also quiet evident that man does operate within a domain of free will.  Thus there is what appears to be a paradox which gives pause and opens up questions such as the one you pose.
> 
> ...



There is no question about the soverignty of God.  The question is about the way God wishes to interact with his creation.

I'm a supervisor.  I have the authority to be intimately involved in every single action and decision of my subordinates.  I have the undeniable right to micromanage if I wish.  Having that authority does not automatically require me to use that authority.  I can use it when I see fit and to the extent that I wish.  I can also step back and watch, and that does not in any way diminish my authority.

There are plenty of examples of God becoming intimately involved in the life of certain people for certain periods of time.  This does not automatically require that He is always that involved in everyone's lives.


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 16, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> There is no question about the soverignty of God.  The question is about the way God wishes to interact with his creation.
> 
> I'm a supervisor.  I have the authority to be intimately involved in every single action and decision of my subordinates.  I have the undeniable right to micromanage if I wish.  Having that authority does not automatically require me to use that authority.  I can use it when I see fit and to the extent that I wish.  I can also step back and watch, and that does not in any way diminish my authority.
> 
> There are plenty of examples of God becoming intimately involved in the life of certain people for certain periods of time.  This does not automatically require that He is always that involved in everyone's lives.



Yet your point, if I understand it correctly, is one cannot hold that God is ALWAYS involved in everyone's lives down to the minute details (Total Sovereignty) and yet not be responsible for the bad events also; for total sovereignty implies TOTAL sovereignty.

In essence God told Job, we couldn't/wouldn't comprehend them if we did know and had no standing in questioning his authority to know.  

Where does that leave us? ( I know where it leaves me.).


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## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

SemperFiDawg said:


> Yet your point, if I understand it correctly, is one cannot hold that God is ALWAYS involved in everyone's lives down to the minute details (Total Sovereignty) and yet not be responsible for the bad events also; for total sovereignty implies TOTAL sovereignty.
> 
> In essence God told Job, we couldn't/wouldn't comprehend them if we did know and had no standing in questioning his authority to know.
> 
> Where does that leave us? ( I know where it leaves me.).



I don't know if "responsible" for the bad events is always the case, but at the very least, if God is intimately involved in every detail of all of our lives, He would then know before one of His creation is even considering harming another one of His creation and would have almost endless options to prevent the event if He had any desire to do so.

That does not mean that God doesn't ever become involved to prevent a certain bad thing from happening, but if you look around the world, you will see that He doesn't prevent all bad things from happening. 

This does not in any way limit His power to do so, as in my micromanaging supervisor example.  It just seems to be the way God wishes to allow things to work.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 17, 2014)

I think that if you consider the situation logically, you must choose between one of these options:

(A)  God directly controls everything good and bad.

(B)  God intervenes only when He decides to and allows most things, both good and bad, to occur naturally or randomly.

(C)  God does not intervene in anything today, for whatever reason.

There is no logical scenerio in which God directly provides ALL good things but has NO involvement in ANY bad things.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 17, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I think that if you consider the situation logically, you must choose between one of these options:
> 
> (A)  God directly controls everything good and bad.
> 
> ...



I'll go with "B" That's my final answer!


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## SemperFiDawg (Jan 18, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I think that if you consider the situation logically, you must choose between one of these options:
> 
> (A)  God directly controls everything good and bad.
> 
> ...




That's why I noted the parable of the wheat and the tares earlier.


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## Israel (Jan 19, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I think that if you consider the situation logically, you must choose between one of these options:
> 
> (A)  God directly controls everything good and bad.
> 
> ...




What if "good" and "bad" are not as they sometimes appear?
What if what appears "bad" can be turned for good?
May one need patience to see that?
How patient may one be to see that?
What if the pinning of all hopes that God is good, regardless of ones circumstance, is enough for God...to change EVERYTHING in our sight?
What man would God do such for?
Have you seen him?
The view from Gethsemane's entrance was as real as real can be from earth.
But One has purposed a different perspective for the one willing to enter a dirt path, but exit walking on clouds.

When the plane reaches thirty five thousand feet, the mud still clinging to the bottoms of my Dockers that speaks of a sodden gloomy autumn day at the airport is remarkably bathed as the pilot banks and sunlight streams through the portal.
Who is correct?
The man on the ground bewailing the leaks the deluge has disclosed in his roof?
Or the man in the air, lifted by a power not his own, laughing as he now needs to shield his eyes from the piercing light?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 19, 2014)

Israel said:


> What if "good" and "bad" are not as they sometimes appear?
> What if what appears "bad" can be turned for good?
> May one need patience to see that?
> How patient may one be to see that?
> ...



If A and B are indistinguishable, as they appear to be, then are not good and bad indistinguishable in the ultimate sense?

Are not good and bad simply the names of the two paths to the same destination?


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## Israel (Jan 19, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> If A and B are indistinguishable, as they appear to be, then are not good and bad indistinguishable in the ultimate sense?
> 
> Are not good and bad simply the names of the two paths to the same destination?



Amen.
To experience either...one must "be".
And any that have _truly_ decided "being" is evil, bad, not to be had, forsaken, ...are not here to discuss this.

But...even they are not able by their strongest efforts...to abolish it. Seems Jesus even spoke of things worse than having "not been".
Now...that does cause me to pause.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 19, 2014)

Israel said:


> What if "good" and "bad" are not as they sometimes appear?
> What if what appears "bad" can be turned for good?
> May one need patience to see that?
> How patient may one be to see that?
> ...



Are you saying that this occurs sometimes to some people, which would be option (B),

Or are you saying that this occurs always to all people, which would be option (A)?

It is not important, for this particular discussion, to argue over the label of "good" or "bad" to assign to the molestation of a child.  The issue is whether God is directly involved in it and either causes it and/or deliberately does not stop it, or if there are issues "good" and "bad" that God is not directly involved in for His own reasons.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 19, 2014)

Israel said:


> Amen.
> To experience either...one must "be".
> And any that have _truly_ decided "being" is evil, bad, not to be had, forsaken, ...are not here to discuss this.
> 
> ...



“…even they are not able by their strongest efforts…to abolish it.”

Does anything choose to be?
Didn’t choose it; can’t get out of it; just stuck with it.

If that being is on the “good” path, God is glorified by that being.
If that being is on the “bad” path, God is glorified by that being.

It’s all about God.

“What is man that You take thought of him, 
And the son of man that You care for him?”

Amazing!  Absolutely amazing!


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## Israel (Jan 19, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Are you saying that this occurs sometimes to some people, which would be option (B),
> 
> Or are you saying that this occurs always to all people, which would be option (A)?
> 
> It is not important, for this particular discussion, to argue over the label of "good" or "bad" to assign to the molestation of a child.  The issue is whether God is directly involved in it and either causes it and/or deliberately does not stop it, or if there are issues "good" and "bad" that God is not directly involved in for His own reasons.



What do you think you are, the benign observer?
Removed...and simply watching?


Which are you in your little tableau...the molester, the child...or God?


I met someone who tried to speak his scenario into creation, put his _slant_ on what was going on.

He feigns innocence, too.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 19, 2014)

Israel said:


> What do you think you are, the benign observer?
> Removed...and simply watching?
> 
> 
> ...




Uh, bartender? Make mine a cold Schlitz, please. And put it on the Man's tab, while I wipe up myself here.


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## M80 (Jan 19, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> The reason it is difficult for me to understand is this:
> 
> If God made certain men rebellious by nature and allowed them to do as they wished, their actions (even though not their fault) could be disobedient to God.  Their actions could be blasphemous or insulting to God.
> 
> ...



Hebrews 11:24,25
By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaohs daughter;

Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season

Looks like Moses has a choice and so do we.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2014)

Could the Great Potter make a vessel to be rebellious and the vessel rebel and follow the Biblical requirements of proper living?
In other words God made someone to perform in a bad way but this person knew it was wrong and rebelled by doing good.
That sounds weird and makes no sense to me. Never-mind.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2014)

The question is if God makes someone good or bad, why does it matter? Christianity isn't based on goodness & badness. It's not a works based religion. 
Christianity is based on Jesus dying for our sins. 
This is where intervention or God's calling get's interesting. Everything is up to God but our answer to his call. He calls, we answer. The only thing out of the equation from us is our answer? Just that one little step is from us, the answer? After we answer yes, then it's back under God's control. The gifts are bestowed and the sanctification, faith, repentance, etc, processes are given from God to us.
Yet if someone doesn't change quick enough or to our standards, he was never called. Why would God trick someone like that?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 20, 2014)

I'm beginning to feel like   Knowledge is confusing. I wish I didn't have a readable Bible. Watching miracles performed would be more convincing or at least easier.
Why can't I just believe Jesus died for my sins, and I'm going to Heaven one day? Not if you believe this or if you produce fruit? Why must we complicate a simple process with "if's?"


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## M80 (Jan 20, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm beginning to feel like   Knowledge is confusing. I wish I didn't have a readable Bible. Watching miracles performed would be more convincing or at least easier.
> Why can't I just believe Jesus died for my sins, and I'm going to Heaven one day? Not if you believe this or if you produce fruit? Why must we complicate a simple process with "if's?"



I've said a bunch of times we must have that child like faith. My little girl sitting in my lap right now, if I told her Art could pick up a car above his head she would believe me, cause she trust me. I'm her daddy, she wouldn't start doubting me. The older we get the more our knowledge comes into affect. We must believe. We have a father in heaven that we must believe. 

Trust in The Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto THINE OWN UNDERSTANDING.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 20, 2014)

Israel said:


> What do you think you are, the benign observer?
> Removed...and simply watching?
> 
> 
> ...



I'm actually the small child who was abused physically and mentally by my father until I was old enough to leave home.  I prayed for God to make him stop abusing me and my brother and just love us.  I thought that if I was a good enough Christian, He would answer my prayer.  I though if I had enough faith and belief, He would answer my prayer.

So, no I'm not a casual observer.  I'm the victim who is asking if God directly caused each and every act of abuse, while I was looking to Him for help.


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## Israel (Jan 20, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I'm actually the small child who was abused physically and mentally by my father until I was old enough to leave home.  I prayed for God to make him stop abusing me and my brother and just love us.  I thought that if I was a good enough Christian, He would answer my prayer.  I though if I had enough faith and belief, He would answer my prayer.
> 
> So, no I'm not a casual observer.  I'm the victim who is asking if God directly caused each and every act of abuse, while I was looking to Him for help.



Who here could answer that?


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## BT Charlie (Jan 20, 2014)

Our Heavenly Father can answer such a question, if it be honestly asked, by any of His children.  Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior.

Hawg surely is not alone here when it comes to testimony of pain, terror, struggling between life and death and wondering about God in it all. 

Others freely, in good faith, have provided their testimonies to reveal context and personal bias shaping both their questions and answers.  Hawg has hundreds of posts without such disclosure.

He was asked a fair question.  Perhaps the answer is the beginning of wisdom.

May it be so.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Others freely, in good faith, have provided their testimonies to reveal context and personal bias shaping both their questions and answers.  Hawg has hundreds of posts without such disclosure.



I disagree with your assessment.  I have always been open about my loss of faith in many of the Christian concepts I was taught, and my loss of belief that God is currently, actively involved in every aspect of our lives.

Many life experiences that have led to my current position.  One of them I relayed was when a group of the church elders, deacons, and a few others including me, met at our church each evening for the sole purpose of praying for ONE of our members who was suffering from pancreatic cancer.  There was no church service, no singing, just praying at the alter and leaving reverently.  We prayed for either a miraculous healing or a quick, painless death.  We got neither.

I have many reasons.  My childhood abuse is just one of them.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> I disagree with your assessment.  I have always been open about my loss of faith in many of the Christian concepts I was taught, and my loss of belief that God is currently, actively involved in every aspect of our lives.
> 
> Many life experiences that have led to my current position.  One of them I relayed was when a group of the church elders, deacons, and a few others including me, met at our church each evening for the sole purpose of praying for ONE of our members who was suffering from pancreatic cancer.  There was no church service, no singing, just praying at the alter and leaving reverently.  We prayed for either a miraculous healing or a quick, painless death.  We got neither.
> 
> I have many reasons.  My childhood abuse is just one of them.



I am sorry you feel a need to disagree, as my intent is neither to argue nor to gloss over the truth of your personal testimony...whatever it ultimately may be in toto.

Providence is mysterious.  I am thankful Israel posed his question to you and I am thankful you answered.  I am thankful that we have a Heavenly Father who hears us, and that in and through Christ He reconciles us to Him.  

My hope, as I've said many times before, dear Hawg, is only for the best for you personally in God's will.

Oh how I would have cherished the truth from you, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.  But who here is ever totally honest, really?

You are an annonymous character on this message board, with a unique style, like the rest of us.  Your style is marked by machinegun like interrogations based frequently upon sterile, impersonal hypotheticals. 

No one here can be faulted for not knowing the essence of the character you maintain here, for our illusory understanding of "you" is based on the glimpses and snatches of self you've offered.  

Not a single post nor a PM even hints to child abuse being a driving factor behind your relationship with Christ.  That is a truth that transcends hundreds of posts, but is really not important at all.

I would prefer to spend my time dealing with real issues, not make believe.  To do that there needs to be developed some trust, some credibility.  "I remember when I was murdered..." will not do.  Perhaps we owe it to the quality of the discussion we invite to provide the appropriate context up front.

One would not use a hammer to cut a fine dovetail joint in wood.   If one seeks answers cutting to the essence of his being, why ask sterile, impersonal, hypothetical questions in a vacuum?  If one desires fruit, why sow seeds of grass?

Again, I wish only the very best for you Hawg, in God's will.  I look forward to real discussions with a character who has disclosed sufficient context to drive the answers he seeks.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

Charlie,
I think you're assigning too much significance upon my childhood abuse, as if it served as some hidden agenda.  It doesn't define my life.  A lot of people were abused as kids.

Honestly, in this thread is the first time I every heard anyone asserting that God directly causes everything "good" and "bad".  If you remember earlier in this thread, it got a little heated when discussing whether God causes a child to be molested.

I'm certain that there are many significant events in your life that shaped who you are today, but I wouldn't question why I was not made aware of them or accuse you of not being completely honest for not sharing them.  

My childhood is not as big of a factor in my discussions here as you are making it out to be.  I just mentioned it because I thought it was relevant to the question asked in this thread.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 21, 2014)

So, I am inclined to just take you at your word and move on.  I do wish only the best for you in Christ.  My intent is misstated in your post.

My only point, really, is that the first 230 posts would have gone differently had you said something like the following.

I was molested as a child and it affects me today.  It is not a big factor in my life today; I am coping with it.  But I'd like to know what your view is: Did God cause my dad to  molest me? I prayed that God would make my dad stop, but my dad continued.  Did God will for me to be molested by my dad?





That seems like an honest discussion.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> My only point, really, is that the first 230 posts would have gone differently had you said something like the following.
> 
> I was molested as a child and it affects me today.  It is not a big factor in my life today; I am coping with it.  But I'd like to know what your view is: Did God cause my dad to  molest me? I prayed that God would make my dad stop, but my dad continued.  Did God will for me to be molested by my dad?
> 
> That seems like an honest discussion.



But that wasn't my question.  The issue didn't even come up until now.  I'm not seeking an answer for why my dad abused me, cleverly concealed inside other questions.  I know why my dad abused me.  He was a paranoid schizophrenic and had problems interacting with people.  He was most likely abused as a child as well.  I don't blame God for that.  It is just one of many reasons for me to question just how intimately God is involved in our everyday lives.

Also, I was not molested.  I mentioned the issue of molestation earlier hypothetically but that had nothing to do with me.  I was abused physically (beaten) and mentally.  But like I said, that is part of who I am but is not the hidden motivator for all my questions.  I have many other experiences and observations that have equally contributed to my loss of faith.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> But that wasn't my question.  The issue didn't even come up until now.  I'm not seeking an answer for why my dad abused me, cleverly concealed inside other questions.  I know why my dad abused me.  He was a paranoid schizophrenic and had problems interacting with people.  He was most likely abused as a child as well.  I don't blame God for that.  It is just one of many reasons for me to question just how intimately God is involved in our everyday lives.
> 
> Also, I was not molested.  I mentioned the issue of molestation earlier hypothetically but that had nothing to do with me.  I was abused physically (beaten) and mentally.  But like I said, that is part of who I am but is not the hidden motivator for all my questions.  I have many other experiences and observations that have equally contributed to my loss of faith.



Hawg, with respect to the highlighted text above, I appreciate your clarification.  I must have read too much into your previous post, as highlighted below: 

"I'm actually the small child who was abused physically and mentally by my father until I was old enough to leave home. I prayed for God to make him stop abusing me and my brother and just love us. I thought that if I was a good enough Christian, He would answer my prayer. I though if I had enough faith and belief, He would answer my prayer.

So, no I'm not a casual observer. I'm the victim who is asking if God directly caused each and every act of abuse, while I was looking to Him for help." 

Also, thank you for the clarification on the physical abuse you suffered.  I regret that you experienced such and do hope, as said before, God will utilize this to reconcile you to Him.  

As has been said, no mortal here has the chops to answer your question.   It is my belief and hope that you have a Heavenly Father who in fact can provide answers in love and in His perfect time.

And as always, I wish the very best for you in Christ.  Peace.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 21, 2014)

Thank you Charlie.
I don't blame God because I don't believe God had anything to do with it.  That's why I am so quick to argue with anyone who asserts that God is intimately involved in every single thing that happens.  It's also the reason for this whole thread about claiming every good thing that happens as being straight from God but at the same time trying to distance God from the bad stuff that happens.

I don't live a very sheltered life so I personally see a lot of evil in the world almost daily.  I can't read the New Testament and find any way to believe that God is directly causing all that I see.  I see God distancing Himself from evil, not causing it.  

Sin is what caused the separation between God and Adam & Eve (and all mankind).  I don't believe that God participates in evil or generates it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 21, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Thank you Charlie.
> I don't blame God because I don't believe God had anything to do with it.  That's why I am so quick to argue with anyone who asserts that God is intimately involved in every single thing that happens.  It's also the reason for this whole thread about claiming every good thing that happens as being straight from God but at the same time trying to distance God from the bad stuff that happens.
> 
> I don't live a very sheltered life so I personally see a lot of evil in the world almost daily.  I can't read the New Testament and find any way to believe that God is directly causing all that I see.  I see God distancing Himself from evil, not causing it.
> ...



The main thing you don't believe as most Christians is God's involvement or intervening in our daily lives. Examples you have given include Christians aren't blessed with better health, money, etc. They have the same divorce rate. You don't see prayer as changing God's mind. You don't see any gifts of the Holy Spirit. Well we know there are Christians who believe some of those also. Then there are the Christians that believe God is in total control. 
One more thing we've discussed is God not causing evil but watching it happen such as the case of your childhood or someone with cancer.


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## Israel (Jan 22, 2014)

Rain. Storms. Cursings.
Come for all, at all.
David said "let this guy do his thing, good may come of it".
I suppose he had purposed to see what God would do in every situation.
Woe to me every time I believe I deserve better than what was done to the Lord.
But, generally, I don't know that...till I take offense and discover, even in my folly of imagination, I am saved from those vain imaginations by someone who rebukes me, chastens me, shows me, you ain't all you think you are...but you can surely be something you ain't yet seen...keep looking...even in the unwanted places.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 22, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The main thing you don't believe as most Christians is God's involvement or intervening in our daily lives. Examples you have given include Christians aren't blessed with better health, money, etc. They have the same divorce rate. You don't see prayer as changing God's mind. You don't see any gifts of the Holy Spirit. Well we know there are Christians who believe some of those also. Then there are the Christians that believe God is in total control.
> One more thing we've discussed is God not causing evil but watching it happen such as the case of your childhood or someone with cancer.



In self-reflection it appears that I am utilizing the process of elimination to determine what I believe.  I say this because I find that I have stronger convictions in the things I do NOT believe than in the things that I do.

The problem occurs when two concepts seem to contradict each other and its not clear which one is correct.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 22, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> In self-reflection it appears that I am utilizing the process of elimination to determine what I believe.  I say this because I find that I have stronger convictions in the things I do NOT believe than in the things that I do.
> 
> The problem occurs when two concepts seem to contradict each other and its not clear which one is correct.




That makes some sense, if one does not see God as maker and current co-occupant of every atom within and without us.  In that paradigm, things add up to us as if life is all just random. That God is somehow distant.  Indeed, circumstances can be such that "two concepts seem to contradict each other and it's not clear which one is correct."  

Yet what happens to our math and our logical products thereof, if we see and accept God as the creator and co-occupant of every particle forming every atom, for all time?  

In my worldview, God is in all, and creation of all was assigned to Christ.  If either never were, or somehow ceased to be, every atom of our being would likewise cease.   I love listening to real scientists who have looked up from their microscopes...or looked out from their telescopes...or rocked back in their chairs from their computers... and exclaimed the need for a perfect creator to have established "it" so.

The more aged I become the more convinced I am that our only purpose is to be with the Maker...abundant life is here and now...being...with the Maker.  That He does not exist...now that truly is an invention of man.

Hawg, I have shared my testimony here before. But there was an event...a sequence of images...kind of like the classic "my life 'flashed' before my eyes"...except is was faster than that, and more permanent, at the same time.  Every "bad" thing in my life -- God revealed His presence, His love, and His truth in such.  "See, I have always loved you." My inner most need was being with a Heavenly Father who I knew is always there.  Pow -- through crises, He proved to me precisely what I most needed. 

It tipped me over then, and does still today.

I have special joy at scripture attesting that God brings all things about for the good for those who love Him.

I truly hope the same for you, forum friend, in God's will and Christ.  You will be a formidable champion for the Kingdom when that day arrives...indeed!


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## HawgJawl (Jan 22, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> That makes some sense, if one does not see God as maker and current co-occupant of every atom within and without us.  In that paradigm, things add up to us as if life is all just random. That God is somehow distant.  Indeed, circumstances can be such that "two concepts seem to contradict each other and it's not clear which one is correct."
> 
> Yet what happens to our math and our logical products thereof, if we see and accept God as the creator and co-occupant of every particle forming every atom, for all time?
> 
> ...



If you do not believe that God distances Himself from sin, how do you interpret the following scriptures?

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God. Because of your sins, he has turned away and will not listen anymore.

Proverbs 15:29
The Lord is far from the wicked: but he hears the prayer of the righteous.

1 Peter 3:12
For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

Proverbs 15:8  
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord: but the prayer of the upright is his delight.

Lamentations 3:8
Also when I cry and shout, he shutteth out my prayer.

Lamentations 3:44
Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that our prayer should not pass through.

Isaiah 1:15
And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hand are full of blood.

Jeremiah 7:16
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.

Jeremiah 11:14
Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up a cry or prayer for them: for I will not hear them in the time that they cry unto me for their trouble.


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## Israel (Jan 22, 2014)

Sometimes faith is a peculiar thing. Nah...it's always peculiar.
It often informs one past the seeming place of hopelessness in every situation.
Somehow it gets one past the place of thinking in terms of deserving anything to the place of "you're still better than everything that tells me I have no right to...so, I'm going to ask for your goodness to be shown"
Were a man to wait for any confidence besides that given by the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the seal that has set to HIS word,
well...he would just stand forever staring into an abyss he could never bridge.
But Christ is risen. 
And everything good is yes, and amen, in him.
And sometimes that man is brought to marvel at all that was done, not by him at all, but is all for him, always.
And that's peculiarly wonderful and marvelous.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 23, 2014)

Israel said:


> Sometimes faith is a peculiar thing. Nah...it's always peculiar.
> It often informs one past the seeming place of hopelessness in every situation.
> Somehow it gets one past the place of thinking in terms of deserving anything to the place of "you're still better than everything that tells me I have no right to...so, I'm going to ask for your goodness to be shown"
> Were a man to wait for any confidence besides that given by the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the seal that has set to HIS word,
> ...



That's a nice sentiment but it doesn't answer my question.



HawgJawl said:


> If you do not believe that God distances Himself from sin, how do you interpret the following scriptures?
> 
> Isaiah 59:2
> But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God. Because of your sins, he has turned away and will not listen anymore.
> ...


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## BT Charlie (Jan 23, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> If you do not believe that God distances Himself from sin, how do you interpret the following scriptures?
> 
> Isaiah 59:2
> But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God. Because of your sins, he has turned away and will not listen anymore.
> ...



So the most difficult battle ground has been described as the six inches between man's ears, and the 12 inches from his brain to his heart.  I'm not sure you asked the right question, or that you need a theological answer, Hawg.
In any event, this imperfect clay vessel, from the little I can see dimly now, is not likely to provide a theological equation that adds up to some proof of truth for you.

I concur with you, Hawg, if you are saying that:

God is pure and Holy;

God does not and cannot sin;

sin separates us from God;

God neither tempts us nor causes us to sin.

The verses you set forth do not, however, convince me that God is neither sovereign nor personal.   Why is that?

Let's start with, "What is the worst thing that could happen to us."  We can begin with the bad things within our personal testimonies.  We could extend these things out by human logic ... and we might agree that the worst thing that could exist would be that there is in fact a loving God who sent His only begotten Son for our salvation, and then we killed Him.

Yet through that very worst thing derives the very best thing, our eternal life and reconciliation to God through Jesus Christ's finished work on the cross.

As God knew before He formed the earth how all that would go, and indeed it went just so, then it must be that  He likewise knew how all would go for you and me, and indeed it will be just so.  

I trust that His will shall be done here as in heaven, and that all things will be brought about for the good for those who love Him.  As I've said, my personal testimony is based in large part on sufficient proof that God was with me every step of my life.  "See, I have always loved you."

So I'm left with an immense, incomprehnsible, passionately loving, merciful God...whom I can only glimpse now.  But even  the glimpses have been life changing, forever.

I'm not so sure people have the capacity to even frame the correct questions to reveal to themselves our eternal God.  Free will v. robots? 

Today, I believe our wholly sovereign God has willed for us some decision making capacity...but the outcome is certainly known to Him, not left to chance or surprise (except maybe to us).  Free will? I think the Bible says we are slaves in bondage to sin, or saved by grace, bondservants then to Christ alone.  Masters may let their slaves think they're free...and slaves may even dare think they are free and masters of their own causes...but in the end, slaves discover on bent knee their bona fides.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 23, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> I concur with you, Hawg, if you are saying that:
> 
> God is pure and Holy;
> 
> ...



Since God cannot sin and sin separates man from God, do you believe that God causes or even participates in an evil act such as a late-term abortion?  Do you see God participating in that event (except for stopping it) or distancing Himself from it.

As far as God being sovereign and personal, God distancing Himself from evil does not diminish or limit His power or ability to have a personal relationship with those who repent and believe and attempt to live Christ-like.  

You are actually limiting God if you define sovereign as always having to use all of His powers without the option to decide when and where and how He wants to do things.  God CAN walk on water, raise the dead, know the future, be intimately involved in a person's life, but who says that He HAS to do all those things always?

When we argue over whether God knows the future or not, we limit God by saying that He either knows every single thing that everyone will ever do or God does not know the future ever.  A God would have the power and authority to look into the future when He sees fit and let things happen randomly when He sees fit.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 23, 2014)

Well, again, let's take the worst case.  There is in fact a loving God who sent His only begotten Son for salvation of the world, and we killed Him.

Did God know this would happen beforehand?  Yes, before tbe foundation of the earth.

Did any good come out of it? The best thing ever, opportunity for eternal salvation. And as it turns out...that was precisely the plan from before time.  Who can fathom what we purport to discuss?

Let's take our shoes off, shall we?


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## BT Charlie (Jan 23, 2014)

So take our worst case and apply it, the plan, to your examples.  Call it what you wish...participation...will...knowledge.


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## Israel (Jan 23, 2014)

What is future to God?
Really?
Is the future for God as it seems for you and me...the place we ain't yet?
Does God have a "tomorrow" in whatever sense one cares to make that?
The thing in which, I (and perhaps you...[and maybe even all] also) suffer for the present, of "being" is it not what God has no problem about at all... i.e. "being"?
Something that "tried to be"...got us also to "try to be" by strength of will...and we all fell.
God just...is. What is.
Either we are. 
Or we ain't.
And still trying "to be".
I find Jesus' remarkable gift of peace has manifest most often to me in a simple kinda truth 
"Don't worry, calm down, you ain't gonna lose your "being"...God's not gonna take it away from you...as fearful as you have been about it...and see all the mistakes (sins) you have ever made, have come in your "trying" to secure to yourself, for yourself, what you neither created yourself, nor can sustain yourself. "Your" being is a gift."

Discover it. Enjoy it. 
God does.

There are hints in scripture I see.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2014)

if God is omniscient, meaning God knows the future, God cannot be omnipotent, meaning God can do anything, because: "If God knew the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it – in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it.".This argument is used by some Open theists.  
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism


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## BT Charlie (Jan 23, 2014)

Israel said:


> What is future to God?
> Really?
> Is the future for God as it seems for you and me...the place we ain't yet?
> Does God have a "tomorrow" in whatever sense one cares to make that?
> ...



Amen, I think, though I fear once again I am incompetent to get what you are saying!


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## BT Charlie (Jan 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> if God is omniscient, meaning God knows the future, God cannot be omnipotent, meaning God can do anything, because: "If God knew the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it – in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it.".This argument is used by some Open theists.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism





I am who I am... Wikipedia purports to box the Great I am? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha agh HH ha ha ha ha.  That's funny right there.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> if God is omniscient, meaning God knows the future, God cannot be omnipotent, meaning God can do anything, because: "If God knew the future with infallible certainty, he cannot change it – in which case he cannot be omnipotent. If God can change the future, however, he cannot have infallible knowledge of it.".This argument is used by some Open theists.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_theism



They treat the two characteristics of God as if they were independent.  But they are interdependent. 

God IS omnipotent AND omnicient, therefore, the future is exactly as He wills, and He knows it.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> They treat the two characteristics of God as if they were independent.  But they are interdependent.
> 
> God IS omnipotent AND omnicient, therefore, the future is exactly as He wills, and He knows it.



Why would he will us to have these weird discussions? I can understand him knowing we will have them but I can't comprehend why it would be in his plan.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would he will us to have these weird discussions? I can understand him knowing we will have them but I can't comprehend why it would be in his plan.



Better the way it is, and not our way, no?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 23, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> Why would he will us to have these weird discussions? I can understand him knowing we will have them but I can't comprehend why it would be in his plan.





BT Charlie said:


> Better the way it is, and not our way, no?



Yep, He didn't run it across my desk, how about you guys?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 23, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Yep, He didn't run it across my desk, how about you guys?



But in a way he did. His will is that we fellowship, but he doesn't force us. Read the Bible. The whole concept of learning the scriptures and testing the spirits is Biblical. Understanding, learning, testing, obedience, following, fellowship, brotherhood, standfast, endure, observe, share, witness, interpret, do, practice, teach, encourage one another, stir one another to love & good works, proclaim, lift the other up, sympathy, praise God, love one another, help one another, devote to fellowship, restore, & abide.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> But in a way he did. His will is that we fellowship, but he doesn't force us. Read the Bible. The whole concept of learning the scriptures and testing the spirits is Biblical. Understanding, learning, testing, obedience, following, fellowship, brotherhood, standfast, endure, observe, share, witness, interpret, do, practice, teach, encourage one another, stir one another to love & good works, proclaim, lift the other up, sympathy, praise God, love one another, help one another, devote to fellowship, restore, & abide.



Divine nature/Devine prerogative are not in that ballpark.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 24, 2014)

hummerpoo said:


> Divine nature/Devine prerogative are not in that ballpark.



I don't understand your response, could you elaborate a little more?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 24, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't understand your response, could you elaborate a little more?



You provided a list of what God expects from us in response to a discussion of the nature of God and motivations.

You detailed the pot's purpose to explain the Potter's motivation.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 24, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Well, again, let's take the worst case.  There is in fact a loving God who sent His only begotten Son for salvation of the world, and we killed Him.
> 
> Did God know this would happen beforehand?  Yes, before tbe foundation of the earth.
> 
> ...



Who is to say that it is all or nothing?

Who's rule is it that forbids God from being intimately involved in certain things, such as His plan for salvation, while separating Himself from other things such as evil acts by men?


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## HawgJawl (Jan 24, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> I am who I am... Wikipedia purports to box the Great I am? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha agh HH ha ha ha ha.  That's funny right there.



It's not Wikipedia who is trying to put God in a box.  It is people who say that if God has the power to do something then He must ALWAYS do that thing.  He has no choice.


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## HawgJawl (Jan 24, 2014)

BT Charlie said:


> Better the way it is, and not our way, no?



"our way"

Do we have a way separate from God's way?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 24, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> It's not Wikipedia who is trying to put God in a box.  It is people who say that if God has the power to do something then He must ALWAYS do that thing.  He has no choice.



It's almost like some are trying to take away God's free will. I don't have trouble with people saying I don't have free will but to take God's free will away is pushing it.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 24, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Who is to say that it is all or nothing?
> 
> Who's rule is it that forbids God from being intimately involved in certain things, such as His plan for salvation, while separating Himself from other things such as evil acts by men?



For whatever it's worth, Hawg, I think this is a very astute point.  I generally concur that man cannot conceive of what we describe as ominiscient and omnipresent, across all diminsions -- known and unknown to be revealed.

I am comforted as Jesus assured us that God knows the minute by minute needs of each sparrow, and exclaimed how much more God knows our own needs.  Jesus told us not to worry, for the Father has our backs.  The Son also assurred us that trouble will surely exist in this world, and told us not to fret and worry as He is with us until the end of the age.  Jeremiah was told that from the 
foundation of time, before he was formed in his mother's womb, God purposed for his life what was unfolding before him.

But truthfully, my confidence does not arise from a sterile theological discussion of God's intimacy and personal relationship with us.  It derives from the living, active Word.  As I've said in my testimony, "I've always loved you" has very special meaning to me.  It has provided unshakable assurance and freedom-inspiring comfort in my life.  Freedom from the bondage of slavery in sin, to being free and alive in Christ...that is, not I would live but Christ in me. Thus a slave to Christ, without regret.

Peace.


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## BT Charlie (Jan 24, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> It's not Wikipedia who is trying to put God in a box.  It is people who say that if God has the power to do something then He must ALWAYS do that thing.  He has no choice.



We are something, aren't we people?


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## BT Charlie (Jan 24, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> "our way"
> 
> Do we have a way separate from God's way?



So this is another very astute point.  I do think we have a fallen nature that is not God's original intent for us.  My comment was in response to basically a "why not something different"from what is type question.  

We've covered the means God has provided to reconcile us to Him through Jesus' finished work on the cross.

Yet we are told that God's ways are not our ways, and they are above our ways.  We know, too, that God has not revealed all.  He has revealed much, and it is surely sufficient for our salvation, but as Paul said, we see dimly now what will be revealed and know then, face to Face.

As one dear brother says, if it is knowable, it shall be known....

You sound like a believer this day, Hawg.  Blessings!


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