# The LITERAL Word of God



## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

Brief background, in another thread this conversation was started but it seems worthy to start a new thread so here goes:  Some have proposed that the Bible is the literal word of God while others contend that it is a lesson book and not the literal word of God.  

lit·er·al
ËˆlidÉ™rÉ™l,ËˆlitrÉ™l
adjective
1.
taking words in their usual or most basic sense without metaphor or allegory.


Bi·ble
ËˆbÄ«bÉ™l
noun
singular proper noun: Bible; noun: the Bible
the Christian scriptures, consisting of the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments.
synonyms:	(Holy) Scriptures, Holy Writ, Good Book, Book of Books
"he read the Bible"
the Jewish scriptures, consisting of the Torah or Law, the Prophets, and the Hagiographa or Writings.
a copy of the Christian or Jewish scriptures.
noun: bible; plural noun: bibles
"clutching a large black Bible under his arm"
a particular edition or translation of the Bible.
"the New English Bible"
synonyms:	(Holy) Scriptures, Holy Writ, Good Book, Book of Books
"he read the Bible"
informal
any authoritative book.
noun: bible
"“Larousse Gastronomique,” the bible of French cooking"
synonyms:	handbook, manual, ABCs, companion, guide, primer, vade mecum; rareenchiridion
"the taxi driver's bible"
the scriptures of any religion.



So the first difficulty I come to is which definition of bible are we referring to?  I’m Catholic.  There are 73 books in the Catholic Bible, not 66 so by the first definition, I’m not even reading the Bible.  By the last definition “the scriptures of any religion”  then every religious text is the Bible.  

To prevent a timeless arguement let’s please agree that for our purposes we will use the term “bible” as the common Christian text with somewhere near about 66-73 books.


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

The adjective  “literal” creates a challenge in itself.  I can think of only one word that is literal and that is the word “word”.  

The word “tree” is not a tree.  It is essentially a metaphor for a common object.  Now ask ten people to draw a tree, what do you get?  Ten different trees all different from the idea you had in your head when you pictured a tree.  Who is right?  Who is wrong? 

If that’s not enough trouble, take something more abstract such as God, the Kingdom of Heaven, etc and try to literally describe that! 

We end up bogged down in the quick sand so that the more you struggle, the more you sink.  

In the process of communication, the speaker or writer creates something that contains his experiences and perspectives which are unique to him alone. The recipient of this communication carries their own experiences and perspectives and mentally reconstructs the ideas given to him by the former.  In order for the reader of the Bible to take the message as the literal Word of the WRITER, we haven’t even gotten to God yet, he must have the ability to see and experience the story through the eyes of the writer.  A great writer makes you feel as if you are present in the story for standard prose.  The Bible was not written in prose.  It is poetry, letters, myths, mixed in with personal accounts of history.  


I propose that the Bible is not merely the literal word of God, nor is it merely a good lesson book but a mixture.  I agree with the terminology, “the inspired word of God”.  I believe the Bible is a highly revered and wonderful resource but not the only source of gaining wisdom and knowledge of God.  I also propose that those who take the Bible and only the Bible as the literal word of God are missing out on the wonderful resources around us every day.  Creation itself is the “first bible” and through studying life, we study God.  

That should be enough to get this rolling.  Thoughts?


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## oldfella1962 (May 2, 2018)

"the taxi driver's bible" was part of the examples under the definition of bible. How much you want to bet it's translated into every language _except_ English? 

anyway, many things in the bible could be literal (and meant to be) but also useful for metaphor. The bible was written over a long period and the stories in their oral traditions go back even longer. Factor in many authors and you have a wide mix of styles, from the crude & blunt to the poetic. There is enough raw data to prove or rationalize just about anything you can think of, or cast doubt on anything if that is your goal. 

That said even the most basic, simple things like the 10 Commandments are a mixed bag. "thou shalt not kill" turns everyone into Bill (define the word "is") Clinton.
But "thou shalt not bear false witness" is just about as bullet-proof as it gets IMO.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

For me, I don't believe its the literal word of God because -
1. I don't believe God exists.
2. The process by which the Bible was created.
3. Based on the available facts and evidence, that it is a "lesson book" created by men is certainly a legitimate position to take.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

Would you agree or disagree with this? 

1. God, who is Himself Truth and speaks truth only, has inspired Holy Scripture in order thereby to reveal Himself to lost mankind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is God's witness to Himself.
2. Holy Scripture, being God's own Word, written by men prepared and superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: it is to be believed, as God's instruction, in all that it affirms: obeyed, as God's command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises.
3. The Holy Spirit, Scripture's divine Author, both authenticates it to us by His inward witness and opens our minds to understand its meaning.
4. Being wholly and verbally God-given, Scripture is without error or fault in all its teaching, no less in what it states about God's acts in creation, about the events of world history, and about its own literary origins under God, than in its witness to God's saving grace in individual lives.
5. The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is in any way limited or disregarded, or made relative to a view of truth contrary to the Bible's own; and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church.


Which comes from here: 

http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

As people respond, I am interested in.... for example, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Which faith did you have first...  faith in the bible..... that told you what you now believe about God or in God? Point of this is that most people have actually put their faith in a book 1st, in God second.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

> We end up bogged down in the quick sand so that the more you struggle, the more you sink.


The reason one gets bogged down in the quick sand is because they are trying to apply their beliefs, wants, needs, hopes, preconceived notions, understandings etc. 
THAT is the quick sand.
The undisputed facts themselves are pretty simple -
Its a book created by men.
It tells the story those men wanted told.


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## oldfella1962 (May 2, 2018)

Obviously I'm not god (I'd get fired before I made it through the probationary period) but if every single word in the bible is so important you would think god himself would write it in a way that nobody could misinterpret or alter. And it would be written in one take, start to finish. You can create a universe in six days, even a story as long as the bible shouldn't take more time than that. With the amazing powers god has at his disposal it would be a cakewalk for him.

Anyway one of the claims about the veracity of the bible basically say even the decisions about what to cut & what to include are exactly how god wanted them to end up in the bible as a final product. Now this intrigues me:
why would god inspire someone (and speak through someone) to write down his godly teachings & stories when he knows they will not be included in the final cut? 

A good example would be movie directors/producers. Yes some scenes in a movie end up not "working" in the overall project and have to be cut by the editor or producer. But if the director were psychic he wouldn't waste resources on the scenes that he knew would be cut. He would only film what he knew would work. See where I'm going here? 
God is the writer and editor (working through human hands) of his own story (the Christian bible, the real deal, the final authority) so would he write sections for the purpose of them not ever seeing the light of day? 

Was god with the team of bible experts guiding them in the most important step of the process - what holy words will best affect men's souls for all eternity? Did he think "dude! Trash that chapter, I don't know what I was thinking when I had Zalkenath write that! I should have used Habukeezer instead, he's great on the technical jargon"? Were some bible sections written by men inspired by satan but meant to be tossed at the last second? Pretty big risk for such an important story.

Sorry but there a lot of links in the final product of the bible chain and I really don't think this is the process I would use if I wanted to convey the most coherent, bullet-proof, idiot-proof message that will ever be told.


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Would you agree or disagree with this?
> 
> 1. God, who is Himself Truth and speaks truth only, has inspired Holy Scripture in order thereby to reveal Himself to lost mankind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is God's witness to Himself.
> 2. Holy Scripture, being God's own Word, written by men prepared and superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: it is to be believed, as God's instruction, in all that it affirms: obeyed, as God's command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises.
> ...





For #1: I would add/edit to : 
God, who is Himself Truth and speaks truth only, through his grace has instilled in mankind the desire to know God and reconcile himself to God.  Man’s desire to be reconciled to God has inspired the Holy Scripture in order to open our minds and reveal God to the spiritually blind through Jesus Christ as Creator and Lord, Redeemer and Judge. Holy Scripture is a part of God's witness to Himself through divine inspiration. 

For #2:  I would add/edit to : 
Creation, being God's own Word, written by God, prepared and superintended by His Spirit, is of infallible divine authority in all matters upon which it touches: it is to be believed, as God's instruction, in all that it affirms: obeyed, as God's command, in all that it requires; embraced, as God's pledge, in all that it promises.  Holy Scripture is an inspired vision into the divine nature of all of creation. 

For #3: I would add/edit :
The Holy Spirit, Scripture's divine Author, authenticates it to us in proper time through opening our minds to understand its meaning.

For #4:  I would add/edit : 
Being divinely inspired, Scripture is a path to expedite mans reconciliation with God when viewed through the lens of the Holy Spirit.  

For #5:  I would add/edit : 
The authority of Scripture is inescapably impaired if this total divine inerrancy is interpreted through the limits of human reason alone and such lapses bring serious loss to both the individual and the Church.



How does that look?  I place accountability on ourselves to discern truth through experiencing creation while being instructed with wisdom through invoking the Holy Spirit learned from  Scripture.


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## oldfella1962 (May 2, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> As people respond, I am interested in.... for example, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Which faith did you have first...  faith in the bible..... that told you what you now believe about God or in God? Point of this is that most people have actually put their faith in a book 1st, in God second.



I think the whole idea is that finding the book_ is_ finding god. Thus we don't have 10 people in a room seeking god and discovering 10 different gods. With the book god is codified & formalized & organized....and sadly, eventually....politicized.


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## formula1 (May 2, 2018)

*re:*

The Bible to me is sometimes literal, sometimes lesson oriented, sometimes allegory, and sometimes apocalyptic.  There could be many ways to describe it I suppose.

To me, it is the most consistent way I learn about God, about His interaction with man, and what He desires for us.  These things lead me to growing faith in God and Christ and that is it's ultimate purpose.  Some say it has no purpose and that is your prerogative! But my belief is those that seek Him find Him!


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> The reason one gets bogged down in the quick sand is because they are trying to apply their beliefs, wants, needs, hopes, preconceived notions, understandings etc.
> THAT is the quick sand.
> The undisputed facts themselves are pretty simple -
> Its a book created by men.
> It tells the story those men wanted told.



“These are the facts and they are undisputed”
A Few Good Men

If we cannot start here then there is no hope of any reasonable discussion.   This is definitely an apologetics thread so I know it may be hard for atheists/agnostics but I think a healthy dose of skepticism can be good for any discussion. 

My premise from the bottom (as opposed to building from the top down) is that the Bible is a wonderful resource.  The Bible is not God.  It is books written by men to tell the stories that they wanted to tell. Those men were as different as we are, there were mystical Israel’s, grumpy Griz’s , deep thinker Ambush’s, skeptical 1gr8bldr’s along with deeply devouted jmharris’s.   

Each one wrote from their own inspirations and were later found to be of significant enough importance to be included in the collection.  The writers on the cutting room floor were no less inspired but deemed unnecessary for the intended purpose of the collection.  Each book, if read  carefully carries wisdom that influences the reader in some way.  To limit God to this collection of books alone is absurd.  Did Emerson not inspire me more than Leviticus?  Did Rousseau not increase my faith more than Numbers?  Did God stop talking to people, inspiring people?


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> “These are the facts and they are undisputed”
> A Few Good Men
> 
> If we cannot start here then there is no hope of any reasonable discussion.   This is definitely an apologetics thread so I know it may be hard for atheists/agnostics but I think a healthy dose of skepticism can be good for any discussion.
> ...


I think I agree 99% with your premise as written.
And I say 99% not 100% because I question this -


> Bible is a wonderful resource.


There are parts of it that I find to be a terrible resource/absolutely immoral.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think I agree 99% with your premise as written.
> And I say 99% not 100% because I question this -
> 
> There are parts of it that I find to be a terrible resource/absolutely immoral.



Give me one.... I don't mean that as a challenge, I just want an example of something in the Bible that turns you off so badly.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Give me one.... I don't mean that as a challenge, I just want an example of something in the Bible that turns you off so badly.


A man killing his daughter over a pledge to kill whoever walks out to door first. A man cutting his wife in 12 pieces and sending them out to the twelve tribes. A man offering his daughter to be raped by a mob over a guest. God killing off his first creation in the flood. Jobs family meaning nothing as if their lives did not matter other than to make an example. David getting to chose his punishment for taking anothers wife, receiving a punishment that was of no real consequence to himself............. and on and on.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

God impregnating a human woman with his Son but in reality is a version of himself for the sole purpose of having this Son/mini Me suffering and dying. Only, except for a few hours of beatings and hanging on the cross(which he died much more quickly than usual) he was dead for three days, came back to life and went to Heaven to spend eternity.

SIGN
ME
UP!

I'd take that deal in a heartbeat. A guarantee to be resurrected and spend eternity with Dad is not exactly a hardship or suffering compared to what most have had on Earth.
Now, have his Son be crucified and spend all of eternity in h3ll separated from his father....THAT would be a sacrifice.

The other way is the equivalent of telling someone they have to live in a cardboard box as a homeless person for a week, get thumped by some other angry bums but when its all over you will be given the winning powerball numbers as the sole winner of a Billion dollar prize.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> God impregnating a human woman with his Son but in reality is a version of himself for the sole purpose of having this Son/mini Me suffering and dying. Only, except for a few hours of beatings and hanging on the cross(which he died much more quickly than usual) he was dead for three days, came back to life and went to Heaven to spend eternity.
> 
> SIGN
> ME
> ...



You're a tough fella.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

Ok.... 




1gr8bldr said:


> A man killing his daughter over a pledge to kill whoever walks out to door first.  A man cutting his wife in 12 pieces and sending them out to the twelve tribes. A man offering his daughter to be raped by a mob over a guest. (Both of these are found in Judges and in no way does God approve of them. Just because a story is in the bible doesnt mean God approved of the action.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> You're a tough fella.



To me, it does not sound God-like.
It sounds like something that a human wouod write that would make people of 2000 years ago go Oooh and Ahhhh


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> To me, it does not sound God-like.
> It sounds like something that a human wouod write that would make people of 2000 years ago go Oooh and Ahhhh



You may be right? There obviously is some comfort in believing that this life is all sort of random and that what we do here is of no real consequence, so Carpe Diem!

I just don't believe that. 

I've told you this before I know, but for me it boils down to this. 

Mainly, I believe there was a man named Jesus who gathered a group of followers and started a movement that has lasted til this day. 

If it was his intent to mislead millions of people for thousands of years then he certainly got me and a bunch of other dummies.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think I agree 99% with your premise as written.
> And I say 99% not 100% because I question this -
> 
> There are *parts of it* that I find to be a terrible resource/absolutely immoral.





jmharris23 said:


> Give me one.... I don't mean that as a challenge, I just want an example of something in the Bible that turns you off so badly.





jmharris23 said:


> Ok....


 The point was never did God approve of it..... it was referring to contents of the bible "that Walt found to be a terrible resource/absolutely immoral". You asked for "an example of something in the bible " . I responded referring to the bible. So the context is the bible..... whether God agrees or not.


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## jmharris23 (May 2, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> The point was never did God approve of it..... it was referring to contents of the bible "that Walt found to be a terrible resource/absolutely immoral". You asked for "an example of something in the bible " . I responded referring to the bible. So the context is the bible..... whether God agrees or not.



Ok...so then if those stories don't reflect poorly on God, then what's the issue someone might have with them being in the bible?


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

We likely will not see many responses from the crowd that believes the bible to  be nothing less than God's word. The crowd that believes every word, whom says there is no errors or contradictions. I have never really been motivated to prove them wrong.... however... I think that this belief can have the potential to cause a crisis of faith. College kids for example told all their life that the bible has no contradictions, goes to college, unknowingly signs up for a biblical studies class and then is faced with these contradictions. They usually don't return to the church life they once knew because their teachers have lost credibility.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Ok...so then if those stories don't reflect poorly on God, then what's the issue someone might have with them being in the bible?


There is no way I will try to justify what is and what ain't in the bible. The issue with them being in the bible, you ask, those stories I mentioned make me sick to my stomach. What if your father was Job? How would you feel that God squashed you like an insignificant bug on the sidewalk because of some point he was trying to make to Job?


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Give me one.... I don't mean that as a challenge, I just want an example of something in the Bible that turns you off so badly.


The Flood.
How do I deal with people who do not meet my expectations?
Hmmm let me use the Bible as a resource.......

Now surely you will find other examples in the Bible you could use that could deal with that generic question in a positive way but only because you say to yourself "I'm gonna skip over that Flood one, that's not a good one"......


> (If there is a positive to take from it, these stories provide answers to some of life's difficult circumstances.)


I personally find that particular solution to that difficult circumstance to be absolutely immoral.
And as pointed out I said "some parts of the Bible". I also acknowledge there are some very positive things one can learn from the Bible.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> We likely will not see many responses from the crowd that believes the bible to  be nothing less than God's word. The crowd that believes every word, whom says there is no errors or contradictions. I have never really been motivated to prove them wrong.... however... I think that this belief can have the potential to cause a crisis of faith. College kids for example told all their life that the bible has no contradictions, goes to college, unknowingly signs up for a biblical studies class and then is faced with these contradictions. They usually don't return to the church life they once knew because their teachers have lost credibility.


The declining numbers of those who follow Christianity particularly after a certain age certainly seem to back up your thought.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> You may be right? There obviously is some comfort in believing that this life is all sort of random and that what we do here is of no real consequence, so Carpe Diem!
> 
> I just don't believe that.
> 
> ...



I certainly do not believe Jesus intended to do anything other than preach apocalyptic warnings to those who wished to or were getting away from the Torah. 
He was not out to start a religion.

Paul seemed to start a new religion based off of Jesus to purposely get away from the Torah. Jesus or whatever his name is was the right persona to be the figurehead of direction Paul wanted to take. The people were always looking for a savior. They followed many. This one stuck mainly due to Roman help about the time the religion was dimming.

You have to realise,  there were many writers and sidewalk preachers, and more qualified(for messiah) men than Jesus(according to the Jews) that the Jews also did not follow. There was always someone  if not multiple men preaching that had followers. In an oppressed society you look for a savior and luckily there seems to be no shortage of any that willingly step up....or writers who create the one they think the people want and need.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> You may be right? There obviously is some comfort in believing that this life is all sort of random and that what we do here is of no real consequence, so Carpe Diem!
> 
> I just don't believe that.
> 
> ...





> Mainly, I believe there was a man named Jesus who gathered a group of followers and started a movement that has lasted til this day.


Have you considered that this ^ is 100% true but this -


> If it was his intent to mislead millions of people for thousands of years then he certainly got me and a bunch of other dummies.


Had nothing to do with Jesus or his intent?
The Church maybe?


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> We likely will not see many responses from the crowd that believes the bible to  be nothing less than God's word. The crowd that believes every word, whom says there is no errors or contradictions. I have never really been motivated to prove them wrong.... however... I think that this belief can have the potential to cause a crisis of faith. College kids for example told all their life that the bible has no contradictions, goes to college, unknowingly signs up for a biblical studies class and then is faced with these contradictions. They usually don't return to the church life they once knew because their teachers have lost credibility.



THIS and stuff like it is what I was hoping to get to.  There are some discussions in this thread arguing for and against stories of the Bible and that is NOT what this thread is. 

Of course you all can have the discussions you want but I am personally more interested in the implication behind the Bible having to be literally the word of God, inspired  Word of God or Grimm’s fairytales volume 1.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> THIS and stuff like it is what I was hoping to get to.  There are some discussions in this thread arguing for and against stories of the Bible and that is NOT what this thread is.
> 
> Of course you all can have the discussions you want but I am personally more interested in the implication behind the Bible having to be literally the word of God, inspired  Word of God or Grimm’s fairytales volume 1.


Well isnt what is written on the pages be the reason(s) that people would use for or against the LITERAL word?

The contents contain some real places, some real people, some real events and more of the same that have been found to not be real or accurate. Along with potions and recipes to cure things that just do not work. Would a God get that stuff wrong?


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> THIS and stuff like it is what I was hoping to get to.  There are some discussions in this thread arguing for and against stories of the Bible and that is NOT what this thread is.
> 
> Of course you all can have the discussions you want but I am personally more interested in the implication behind the Bible having to be literally the word of God, inspired  Word of God or Grimm’s fairytales volume 1.


1.If the Bible is the literal word of God, then people will know/judge God based on the Bible.
2. If the Bible is the inspired word of God then the Bible is nothing more than a collection of the writers inspirations.
3. If the Bible is nothing but Grimm's fairytales then only people who believe in fairytales will believe the Bible.

One can learn lessons from any of the 3 however if people thought 2 & 3 were true and not 1, the Vatican would probably be an efficiency apartment in the bad part of town.


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Well isnt what is written on the pages be the reason(s) that people would use for or against the LITERAL word?
> 
> The contents contain some real places, some real people, some real events and more of the same that have been found to not be real or accurate. Along with potions and recipes to cure things that just do not work. Would a God get that stuff wrong?




But I don’t think (someone tell me if I’m wrong) anyone really means that God wrote the Bible through human puppets to his exact specifications. I think the notion is that the writers were deemed to has been inspired by God to write stories from their perspective.  I think the idea is that judging the stories from the perspective of the author will give the open minded person inspiration to discover God’s message.  I say I think because this is the only reasonable way I can conceive that the Bible could be considered the word of God.  

The literal part is what I have trouble with.  Let’s just say it is the literal word of God (for arguments sake) and I read it from my own perspective, I’m not going to get the authors intended message and then will be professing my own opinions and perspective instead of the authors (and God’s) 


Just for clarification on perspective, if I hold an object up in the middle of a room full of people and ask them all to tell me what they see,  let’s makr the object a pencil.  
One person will see a pink circle (the erasure on end) another will see a tan hexagon with a black center (the writing end).  Yet another will see an elongated yellowish rectangle with a silver cap and pink end(the pencil viewed sideways).  Who is right?  

In the cases of the Bible, if we don’t look at the subject from the perspective of the author, we spend all day arguing about pink dots, tan hexagons, etc.  which has nothing to do with the authors story.  That is really what seems to go on when people begin criticizing the stories from the Bible, they are merely arguing pointlessly about their own perspective and missing the intended purpose of the writing.  

My problem in saying the Bible is literal is from which perspective?


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> 1.If the Bible is the literal word of God, then people will know/judge God based on the Bible.
> 2. If the Bible is the inspired word of God then the Bible is nothing more than a collection of the writers inspirations.
> 3. If the Bible is nothing but Grimm's fairytales then only people who believe in fairytales will believe the Bible.
> 
> One can learn lessons from any of the 3 however if people thought 2 & 3 were true and not 1, the Vatican would probably be an efficiency apartment in the bad part of town.



And maybe it should be!  I feel that the Vatican has not so much promoted but has  allowed the myth to persist that all you have to do is believe them and follow their rules and you will be ok. That’s why I like Pope Francis who is rocking the boat quite s bit.

I agree that all three can reveal lessons.  I personally believe that to various degrees,  we can study God in almost anything if not everything.  We propose that every  bit of matter and energy is created by God and because so, gives small hints to his very nature.  Even human ideas and writings are inspired from experiences of living and studying under the dome of God’s creation.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

I see the NT as written by men whom wanted to document what they had heard orally, possibly to pen it before it was subject to more embellishments. Men whom realized that it needed to be recorded. Subject to their perspective, absolutely not inspired by the HS. Written 40+ years after the fact. The OT, I see it about the same. A record of the history of God. I do believe that the simple gospel truth is within the bible. And I find parts of the OT to hold  mystically hidden revelations. The NT is entirely based on the OT and can not stand alone in interpretation.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 2, 2018)

If God had written through men, inspired the bible to it's full extent then no errors would occur. For example, since God created the earth, sun and moon, he knew it was round, he knew that the moon does not have it's own light, a lesser light. He knew it was a reflection of the one light, the sun. But the writer in Genesis did not know this.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> But I don’t think (someone tell me if I’m wrong) anyone really means that God wrote the Bible through human puppets to his exact specifications. I think the notion is that the writers were deemed to has been inspired by God to write stories from their perspective.  I think the idea is that judging the stories from the perspective of the author will give the open minded person inspiration to discover God’s message.  I say I think because this is the only reasonable way I can conceive that the Bible could be considered the word of God.
> 
> The literal part is what I have trouble with.  Let’s just say it is the literal word of God (for arguments sake) and I read it from my own perspective, I’m not going to get the authors intended message and then will be professing my own opinions and perspective instead of the authors (and God’s)
> 
> ...



How can the information be accurate if it is inspired?


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

The need for the Bible and only the Bible to be the literal word of God as opposed to inspirational is more to do with our ego than reality.  

“The Bible is literal so I am right and you are wrong!”  

Whereas the whole point of Christ’s teaching is reconciliation of man to man, of man to spirit and of man to God, not division and being right. 

If anyone wishes to truely study Scripture then read it lots.  Let it incubate I your soul and see what it has to offer.  If you get nothing from a particular passage, then leave it alone.  It’s not meant for you right now.  Judging prematurely is the fatal flaw.


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## red neck richie (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> The reason one gets bogged down in the quick sand is because they are trying to apply their beliefs, wants, needs, hopes, preconceived notions, understandings etc.
> THAT is the quick sand.
> The undisputed facts themselves are pretty simple -
> Its a book created by men.
> It tells the story those men wanted told.



I dont disagree with you Walt. I think what a lot of you are missing is the spiritual aspect. You get tied up in man and contradictions that you dont explore the spiritual and supernatural.  Yes I know other religions make the same claims.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

I see the writings of a tribe, a culture, and a nations history that (like many others worldwide around the time of mans early ability to take oral stories and put them to paper) told of the supernatural God(s) that they felt guided them through their journey as a people.
Of course their inspiration was a God. The same can be said for most cultures.

What then, in your opinion, is contained within those inspired stories, that makes them any more accurate, truthful, or real than all the other stories by people who were inspired by their beliefs?


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> How can the information be accurate if it is inspired?



Not to be contrary but this question suprised me a little. My question is, how can it not be accurate if inspired?  

We rarely if everknow where the inspiration comes from but when we write from our hearts, truth comes out.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Not to be contrary but this question suprised me a little. My question is, how can it not be accurate if inspired?
> 
> We rarely if everknow where the inspiration comes from but when we write from our hearts, truth comes out.



When the ability to check the claims within shows that the authors flat out got things wrong.

I can be inspired to write an outer space saga of a cultures struggles to exist on a far away planet by simply gazing skyward and being moved by the views of the stars. 

Inspiration is not exactly knowledge.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

A person could be inspired by Tom Brady. They could write stories about how Tom led them from despair and go into great detail about the personal relationship and impact Tom made in their life. They can give credit where they think credit is due. But if they have never met Tom.... And Tom has never told them what to write..... what do they really know about Tom?


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## Day trip (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> When the ability to check the claims within shows that the authors flat out got things wrong.
> 
> I can be inspired to write an outer space saga of a cultures struggles to exist on a far away planet by simply gazing skyward and being moved by the views of the stars.
> 
> Inspiration is not exactly knowledge.



Right, but when you write that novel your going to be expressing your experiences, your desires, your fears, in a word, truths that we can all relate to if we can see them from your perspective.  
Yes, You, Bullet  can and do tell us something about God!


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> And maybe it should be!  I feel that the Vatican has not so much promoted but has  allowed the myth to persist that all you have to do is believe them and follow their rules and you will be ok. That’s why I like Pope Francis who is rocking the boat quite s bit.
> 
> I agree that all three can reveal lessons.  I personally believe that to various degrees,  we can study God in almost anything if not everything.  We propose that every  bit of matter and energy is created by God and because so, gives small hints to his very nature.  Even human ideas and writings are inspired from experiences of living and studying under the dome of God’s creation.





> And maybe it should be!


It would certainly be more "Jesus like" if it was.
I just cant reconcile "We follow Jesus's teachings" with billions in the bank while people starve, live in a cardboard box etc.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Not to be contrary but this question suprised me a little. My question is, how can it not be accurate if inspired?
> 
> We rarely if everknow where the inspiration comes from but when we write from our hearts, truth comes out.





> My question is, how can it not be accurate if inspired?


I would say yes technically it is accurate_ for the individual.
_But the Bible/Christianity is not presented as the various inspirations of individuals. There are specific instructions as to what you should be inspired to do, not to do, think, act..


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## red neck richie (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> A person could be inspired by Tom Brady. They could write stories about how Tom led them from despair and go into great detail about the personal relationship and impact Tom made in their life. They can give credit where they think credit is due. But if they have never met Tom.... And Tom has never told them what to write..... what do they really know about Tom?



And you say I am reaching? We are in Georgia we could give a rip about tom brady. at lest say matt ryan,


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## hummerpoo (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> It would certainly be more "Jesus like" if it was.
> I just cant reconcile "We follow Jesus's teachings" with billions in the bank while people starve, live in a cardboard box etc.



Hey Walt, you might have made a pretty good 16th century protestant.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> And you say I am reaching? We are in Georgia we could give a rip about tom brady. at lest say matt ryan,



Ol Matty Ice is a local guy up here in Pa.

Long story short, my youngest son works for the Penna Turnpike.
His first xmas eve he is in a booth in Quakertown, Pa. About midnight Matt Ryan comes through his lane and my youngest is CLUELESS to sports. At 6'2" 290lbs he could block for Matt Ryan...
Anyway MR pulls up in a Caddilac Escalade and wearing a Falcons Jacket and has a Falcons helmet on the passenger seat.
Jake says to him...Do you like the Falcons much?
MR replies...yeah in fact I do, I play for the Falcons...Im Matt Ryan.
Jake replies...Matt Ryan .....what do you DO???!!!???
MR explains that he is QB and is headed to his parents house nearby. They play the Eagles that Sunday.
Jake replies....Sweet, that is Cool.... that will be $8.54. Have a Merry Christmas...

MR slowly pulls away probably thinkin Candid Camera is on the other side of the booth or Ashton Kutcher is going to run out and Punk him!! Lololol

I said to Jake, did you ask for an autograph?
He said Nah, its xmas eve, MR was just trying to get home like everyone else.

I said well Im sure he appreciated not being  bugged,  but for future reference...Matt Ryan was your mother's fantasy football QB, and he won her the league this year.
Jake said...OH! An autograph for mom would jave made a nice xmas present huh....

And my Middle son...An All State 1st team tackle...visited Boston College and met Matt Ryan when MR was a senior.


Middle son could probably tell you Matt Ryan's hamster's social security number.
Jake the youngest couldn't name 10 pro athletes living or dead even if he could use the same name twice.


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## bullethead (May 2, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> And you say I am reaching? We are in Georgia we could give a rip about tom brady. at lest say matt ryan,



Mine is just a random example.
And Im glad that you can relate to me not giving a rip about a god.


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## red neck richie (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Ol Matty Ice is a local guy up here in Pa.
> 
> Long story short, my youngest son works for the Penna Turnpike.
> His first xmas eve he is in a booth in Quakertown, Pa. About midnight Matt Ryan comes through his lane and my youngest is CLUELESS to sports. At 6'2" 290lbs he could block for Matt Ryan...
> ...



Sweet. I go to a lot of falcons games. I am a big matty ice fan. Thanks for sharing that is awesome.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Hey Walt, you might have made a pretty good 16th century protestant.


On this particular subject I probably would have been a leader


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## red neck richie (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Mine is just a random example.
> And Im glad that you can relate to me not giving a rip about a god.


You will be before him when the time comes. I hope you are my neighbor.


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Ol Matty Ice is a local guy up here in Pa.
> 
> Long story short, my youngest son works for the Penna Turnpike.
> His first xmas eve he is in a booth in Quakertown, Pa. About midnight Matt Ryan comes through his lane and my youngest is CLUELESS to sports. At 6'2" 290lbs he could block for Matt Ryan...
> ...


I think me and Jake would probably get along good 
Not sure why I am admitting this but I don't think I could name one current player on ANY professional sports team. Which is odd considering I was somewhat of an athlete in my younger days.
Here just take my man card


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## red neck richie (May 2, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think me and Jake would probably get along good
> Not sure why I am admitting this but I don't think I could name one current player on ANY professional sports team. Which is odd considering I was somewhat of an athlete in my younger days.
> Here just take my man card



You seem to be a fisher of Men though?


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## WaltL1 (May 2, 2018)

red neck richie said:


> You seem to be a fisher of Men though?


Ok is that a trick question?
I love playing sports. But I cant watch other people play sports for more than about 5 minutes without being bored to death.
I take that back. I do watch MMA and could come up with a name or two but that's about it.


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## Artfuldodger (May 3, 2018)

Day trip said:


> But I don’t think (someone tell me if I’m wrong) anyone really means that God wrote the Bible through human puppets to his exact specifications. I think the notion is that the writers were deemed to has been inspired by God to write stories from their perspective.  I think the idea is that judging the stories from the perspective of the author will give the open minded person inspiration to discover God’s message.  I say I think because this is the only reasonable way I can conceive that the Bible could be considered the word of God.
> 
> The literal part is what I have trouble with.  Let’s just say it is the literal word of God (for arguments sake) and I read it from my own perspective, I’m not going to get the authors intended message and then will be professing my own opinions and perspective instead of the authors (and God’s)
> 
> ...



I think I can see what you are saying. The men who wrote were inspired but it was their words of God's story.

Could we say it's similar to our actions by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? We perform works but it's the fruit of the Spirit. 
We don't necessarily say that we are God when we do good works but we do say it is the fruit of the Spirit.


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## bullethead (May 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I think me and Jake would probably get along good
> Not sure why I am admitting this but I don't think I could name one current player on ANY professional sports team. Which is odd considering I was somewhat of an athlete in my younger days.
> Here just take my man card



I am sure you two would.
If it can be caught or shot Jake is the guy.


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## Israel (May 3, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I can see what you are saying. The men who wrote were inspired but it was their words of God's story.
> 
> Could we say it's similar to our actions by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? We perform works but it's the fruit of the Spirit.
> We don't necessarily say that we are God when we do good works but we do say it is the fruit of the Spirit.



Paul said something about "living epistles".

We just recently spoke of Peter's reference to Paul's writings being "scripture"...but do we get Peter's reference in "his framework" or ours? Can we know Peter's? And what then...even...is ours?

Is ours this? 

If it's in the leather bound gold embossed annotated Red Letter edition... Then you can go out on a stage, or stand behind a pulpit, lift it in the air above all attending and declare "I hold in my hand the Word of God! Now y'all better lissen up!"

Might Peter's understanding be somewhat different? I have seen the one I have mentioned in the paragraph above...but, I'd really have "to know" Peter (and Paul, and others) to understand what they might have seen relative to it.

Did Paul sit writing "I better get this all down right, cause "someday" it's gonna be in a "Leather bound gold embossed...blah blah blah" and in the hands of a billion people. 

(Lord, how many _is a_ billion? Oh...wow!  Cool!)
I tend to see not that way.

Do we see man pouring his heart out (oh, don't get me wrong, the words themselves are very very important) to impart something "in himself" he is seeking words for to express what he his hobbled by? 

Ain't it almost funny that the same fellow who wrote of this "simplicity of devotion to Christ" also we find coming out of him a multitude of words that _even_ a fellow apostle says "Look, I also know his stuff ain't easy".

How does a man lead, if he is indeed seeking to lead any other to a simplicity...of even what he calls the "God who dwells in inapproachable light"? Huh? Talk about a hobbling!

Day Trip said something I found very worthy of note about Heaven. Basically he dismissed the whole "do what you can so you can _get to_ Heaven" And then usually the speaker in that mindset will issue a bunch of dictums or rules or whatever's (obviously speaking by what he is no less "possessed by") to do it. But Day Trip wisely said (at least to me) you can't get to Heaven, (how many would that "put out of business"?) you can only _be there._ 

I would not seek to _add_ anything, but maybe expand. It is the only place you can be...and _know being._ (I know it put me "out of business")

I also am convinced a man may find himself in a place where "being" is not affirmed. (And God forbid I dwell on _that_ place overlong, and only to the measure any such understanding might be ministered rightly as help...first to me...and then, and only then, if God wills, by me)


It is the Supreme Being...the Supreme _of_ Being, that imparts and affirms...knowledge of being. And it is to our salvation His desire is to both do that, BE that, even for us. 

(Just as Day Trip has said about "getting" to Heaven, we also never find Jesus saying "get ready for my appearing"...but instead, BE ready) Be dressed in readiness. 
Behold(which means LOOK!>>>SEE!) I come quickly! 

NOT "Behold _I am going to come_...quickly"

But even if we do not yet hear rightly...there is a very patient teacher. How many may be turned from salesman "of a something" to the goods themselves? God knows.

"The Son of Man comes at an hour you do not expect."

"Huh? C'mon Jesus, now you're killing me. Can you give me a better help, a better hint? How can I "be ready" for what you tell me occurs when I can't expect?"

You really are...killing me.

Give me a something "to do", something I can look to for assurance...something I can recognize (to myself) as an approved thing "that will get me there!".

Silence.

Whose duration is all in the Lord's hand. Then reminder. (Also in the Lord's hands and mouth)

I already told you..."Watch for what you do not expect."

What is Heaven...but all a man couldn't possibly know (and surely not "expect!")...except it be shown to him?

Affirmed...to him?

Who (if any) do we _know_, maybe have met even in a "passing" thus far, have some form of his being in our minds as a _result_ of meeting, some smallest bit of his word...or _sentence_ (do we have His _sentence_...in ourselves? 2 Cor. 1:9, 10) that simply will not "leave us alone?"

Follow bread crumbs...to the whole of the loaf, that is our portion...

Paul wrote like that...hobbled by that "sentence"...yet knowing, the very thing that hobbled him, was also to his liberation from the thing that is hobbled. Or can be...hobbled.

We are all following the trail of _seeming_ "crumbs" (even the dogs may eat to live on what falls from the Master's table!) 

Till we might see "Hey...look, nothing falls from that table by mere happenstance or accident! That table is the table of ALL purpose, where NOTHING is happenstance...even what may appear the accidental drop of what (may appear) crumb. There is no crumb at all...it is ALL as much the Master's purpose in giving the whole of the loaf, allowing life, sustaining life that, even "that LIFE that is life" may take possession in such dire hunger...only One can satisfy.

When we eat, we purpose ourselves to a _more life_ (or better...are purposed to it)...accepting that hunger again must come, till it become all and purposed of that dire hunger...that only the whole of the loaf...can satisfy.

I think Peter saw this in Paul, and also in his writings...that he even called scripture...not because they'd be "someday" sandwiched between Genesis and Revelation...but because he knew in himself that dire hunger, and saw and recognized in _that _man...and what came "out of that man" in writings, was in every way as true as his own.

And that man wrote of living epistles...to be read, and known of men...knowing he was surely not the end or only, of all that God is writing in, and upon.

You wrote Art...that Paul seemed a little bit of rogue (if it could be seen)...a kind of outsider (I would surmise to mean also), not unlike Jesus Himself.

Yeah. I see that, too. An outsider...come inside...doing his work...as a living epistle. Imparting...and engendering an unquenchable hunger and thirst "in one place"...that is only satisfied...in Another.


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## WaltL1 (May 3, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I can see what you are saying. The men who wrote were inspired but it was their words of God's story.
> 
> Could we say it's similar to our actions by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? We perform works but it's the fruit of the Spirit.
> We don't necessarily say that we are God when we do good works but we do say it is the fruit of the Spirit.





> I think I can see what you are saying. The men who wrote were inspired but it was their words of God's story.


I wish more of the Christians here would weigh in on this.
Maybe I'm blowing it out of proportion but this seems like an awfully controversial position to take.


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## welderguy (May 3, 2018)

Day trip said:


> But I don’t think (someone tell me if I’m wrong) anyone really means that God wrote the Bible through human puppets to his exact specifications. I think the notion is that the writers were deemed to has been inspired by God to write stories from their perspective.  I think the idea is that judging the stories from the perspective of the author will give the open minded person inspiration to discover God’s message.  I say I think because this is the only reasonable way I can conceive that the Bible could be considered the word of God.
> 
> The literal part is what I have trouble with.  Let’s just say it is the literal word of God (for arguments sake) and I read it from my own perspective, I’m not going to get the authors intended message and then will be professing my own opinions and perspective instead of the authors (and God’s)
> 
> ...




2 Peter 1:21 

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

Lets examine "Mary's song". Luke would have to be fully inspired, writing wholly about that which he knew nothing about. When Mary went to visit John's Mother waiting for him to be born, The socalled song would not have been significant. Luke would know nothing about it. He is either making it up, lying, or he is fully being carried by the HS to write something that he does not know of. Trance like. If then, he is fully under a HS trance supposedly like the writer of Revelation claims, then why the editorial fatigue found in Luke's gospel. I can only conclude that Luke had Marks manuscript in front of him, like copying someone else's term paper and he added to it. "Conclude" is not the proper term. He did have Mark's gospel in front of him, copying it, using it as an outline. This is not in question to those who don't deny for their own agenda. [And Matthew also]


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Lets examine "Mary's song". Luke would have to be fully inspired, writing wholly about that which he knew nothing about. When Mary went to visit John's Mother waiting for him to be born, The socalled song would not have been significant. Luke would know nothing about it. He is either making it up, lying, or he is fully being carried by the HS to write something that he does not know of. Trance like. If then, he is fully under a HS trance supposedly like the writer of Revelation claims, then why the editorial fatigue found in Luke's gospel. I can only conclude that Luke had Marks manuscript in front of him, like copying someone else's term paper and he added to it. "Conclude" is not the proper term. He did have Mark's gospel in front of him, copying it, using it as an outline. This is not in question to those who don't deny for their own agenda. [And Matthew also]


Lets look further at Mary..... She supposedly was visited by angels, etc, fully knowing that Jesus was special. God, or whatever your tradition tells you. She had supposedly seen him do miracles..... Yet why does Mary, Jesus's mother and brothers go to take charge of him, as he was teaching, thinking/saying he's out of his mind. Surely this was to be expected? . The NT is full of these things to those who actually know what's in there


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## Day trip (May 3, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Ol Matty Ice is a local guy up here in Pa.
> 
> Long story short, my youngest son works for the Penna Turnpike.
> His first xmas eve he is in a booth in Quakertown, Pa. About midnight Matt Ryan comes through his lane and my youngest is CLUELESS to sports. At 6'2" 290lbs he could block for Matt Ryan...
> ...




Great story Bullet, a father who is obviously a sports fan with three sons he loves very much, proudly telling stories of the boys.  One son who is physically built to be a football star but has no interest whatsoever in sports, one of his fathers passions.  Yet that father does not love that son any less than the other two sons.  If anything, the father embraces the youngest sons diversity. The father is more interested in the son growing up in his own time, finding his own passion and being happy than blindly following some one else’s expectations for him.  

To add to it, the son is from the father, and has part of the father in him.  No matter which path the son chooses, the father know that the son can never truely be separated from him.  It is the fathers loving mercy to let the son choose his own path, knowing the two are never truely separated.  I bet the father here watches that son and worries about him just a bit more than the other two, am I right? 

Beautiful story!


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

I look at the bible with mixed emotions. On one hand, I know it's my only source for information about God. On the other hand, I sometimes hold it accountable for all the division, hate, wars.... if not that, it is at least responsible for 500+ denominations whom cast hate at each other all the while claiming they are right and everybody else is wrong. Yes, the bible did that. On the other hand, it contains the simple basic story that I have entrusted my faith to. I do find hidden revelations or revealed revelations throughout the OT that I deem to be that way by design. So therefore, somewhat inspired. One might think that I would not have studied the bible if I feel this way. However, these thoughts have come to be after reading the OT no less than 100 times and the NT no less than 1000 times. It's a love/hate relationship.


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## WaltL1 (May 3, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I look at the bible with mixed emotions. On one hand, I know it's my only source for information about God. On the other hand, I sometimes hold it accountable for all the division, hate, wars.... if not that, it is at least responsible for 500+ denominations whom cast hate at each other all the while claiming they are right and everybody else is wrong. Yes, the bible did that. On the other hand, it contains the simple basic story that I have entrusted my faith to. I do find hidden revelations or revealed revelations throughout the OT that I deem to be that way by design. So therefore, somewhat inspired. One might think that I would not have studied the bible if I feel this way. However, these thoughts have come to be after reading the OT no less than 100 times and the NT no less than 1000 times. It's a love/hate relationship.


On one hand, I'm not sure you can blame the Bible for all that. It just seems inherent to man to divide themselves into opposing groups whether those groups are fighting over food, or land or sports or politics or religion or any other darn thing you can think of.
On the other hand, the message of the Bible seems to promote exactly that. Be on the Christian team not the Pagan team or the ____ team. You will get rewarded, "they" will not. You are God's people, "they" are not.
To me that is just another piece of evidence that confirms man is responsible for the Bible.


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## oldfella1962 (May 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Ok is that a trick question?
> I love playing sports. But I cant watch other people play sports for more than about 5 minutes without being bored to death.
> I take that back. I do watch MMA and could come up with a name or two but that's about it.



I don't follow sports either except for MMA. I'm a big fan, and I watch it religiously (no pun intended since it's a religious thread). 

Oh I just remembered! Sad and scary but funny when it happens in a comedy movie: during my wife's mental breakdown that I mentioned a couple of days ago, we were in our hotel room unpacking. I was watching some local MMA event on TV. They had two lightweights fighting (always very lean/thin looking by default) and of all the luck one looked like the typical image of Jesus! 
He had a beard, long hair and average height. And as luck would have it the other fighter had a beard and a widow's peak and a mean expression on his face. Thus to someone in my wife's delusional state of mind he was......could it be...... Satan? 

So my wife actually thought Jesus was fighting Satan in a 3 round non-title bout. MMA fan or not who wouldn't want to see that?  I explained it was just two fighters who look like Jesus and Satan - most fighters have short hair but this fight happens to have two fighters who don't. They are just two regular human fighters. But she wasn't having it - in her mind it was actually Jesus & Satan fighting. Finally my luck turned when "Jesus" won - by split decision if I remember. Thus my wife felt okay because Jesus winning was a "sign from god" that our vacation would be just fine. 

Okay it wasn't, and things got worse by the day. But I think if Satan would have rag-dolled Jesus in that fight it would have really messed her up even worse.


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## 660griz (May 3, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I don't follow sports either except for MMA. I'm a big fan, and I watch it religiously (no pun intended since it's a religious thread).
> 
> Oh I just remembered! Sad and scary but funny when it happens in a comedy movie: during my wife's mental breakdown that I mentioned a couple of days ago, we were in our hotel room unpacking. I was watching some local MMA event on TV. They had two lightweights fighting (always very lean/thin looking by default) and of all the luck one looked like the typical image of Jesus!
> He had a beard, long hair and average height. And as luck would have it the other fighter had a beard and a widow's peak and a mean expression on his face. Thus to someone in my wife's delusional state of mind he was......could it be...... Satan?
> ...



Great story. Funny and kinda sad at the same time.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> On one hand, I'm not sure you can blame the Bible for all that. It just seems inherent to man to divide themselves into opposing groups whether those groups are fighting over food, or land or sports or politics or religion or any other darn thing you can think of.
> On the other hand, the message of the Bible seems to promote exactly that. Be on the Christian team not the Pagan team or the ____ team. You will get rewarded, "they" will not. You are God's people, "they" are not.
> To me that is just another piece of evidence that confirms man is responsible for the Bible.


I agree.... although my thinking was due to the unclear nature of everything leaving the door open to interpret it so many ways.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

"The bible did this" For example.... CARM christian discussion forum. 2000 people at one time, everyday, not talking about the love of the scriptures, but arguing over interpretation, nasty, ugly discussion where they all consider the other stupid, or from the devil. 50+ sub-forums all coming from the bible.


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## Day trip (May 3, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think I can see what you are saying. The men who wrote were inspired but it was their words of God's story.
> 
> Could we say it's similar to our actions by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit? We perform works but it's the fruit of the Spirit.
> We don't necessarily say that we are God when we do good works but we do say it is the fruit of the Spirit.



Hi Art, this is exactly what I feel.  Not every action is of the Spirit.  When we fight against anything in a defensive self-preservation stance then we are operating as humans. When we act out of selfishness and through separation, we are not of the Spirit. 

When we fight for love, for understanding and operate from a pure heart without preferences but only with faith that what is true is right regardless of outcome,  then we are operating from the Spirit.  We all do it but rarely recognize it.  

Aren’t these the moments when submit to our truest nature? Aren’t these the moments that we have no agenda and only strive for truth?  We don’t even know that something special has happened, it seems so “right”.   It’s like only later we realize the Spirit guided us, God guided us!, As we believers say - mere terminology but all are loved and guided by God, he knows that nothing we do can truely sepetates ourselves from him other than our blatantly denying  truth and only truely evil people do this.  Even our A/A friends reveal how they obey truth.  They may deny our versions/stories but not truth.  Mere terminology.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 3, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> "The bible did this" For example.... CARM christian discussion forum. 2000 people at one time, everyday, not talking about the love of the scriptures, but arguing over interpretation, nasty, ugly discussion where they all consider the other stupid, or from the devil. 50+ sub-forums all coming from the bible.




Do you think if there was no bible that people wouldn’t divide and fight?


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## WaltL1 (May 3, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I agree.... although my thinking was due to the unclear nature of everything leaving the door open to interpret it so many ways.


What is interesting to me is that 99% of the Christians I have discussed this with blame man ie the Bible is perfectly clear, its man's interpretations that are at fault.
Which of course totally ignores the reality that with all the different denominations and different understandings within the same denominations, its pretty obvious nobody seems to understand what it clearly says.
Which in itself proves that its not perfectly clear.
Only the very brave or the very secure in their belief in God seem to be able to be able to say "ya know, this book isn't really very clear".


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Do you think if there was no bible that people wouldn’t divide and fight?


People would fight over anything. But, if Jesus died for all, why would it not be clear, to all. I'm glad we have the bible..... imagine if the stories relied on oral passing along. It would likely be worse.


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## Israel (May 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> On one hand, I'm not sure you can blame the Bible for all that. It just seems inherent to man to divide themselves into opposing groups whether those groups are fighting over food, or land or sports or politics or religion or any other darn thing you can think of.
> On the other hand, the message of the Bible seems to promote exactly that. Be on the Christian team not the Pagan team or the ____ team. You will get rewarded, "they" will not. You are God's people, "they" are not.
> To me that is just another piece of evidence that confirms man is responsible for the Bible.



What if the Bible is given (if one concedes it is given) even in the knowing it's going to (so to speak) accomplish all the things quite a few seem piqued to point out...divisions, enmities, emulations...PRECISELY to the end of making such clear...to a desire to find what (but Who) is only relief.

God is wise in the ways of helping men to know that they are resisting...especially in the midst of imagining they are the most fervent and devout that has ever been. Really you know..."for him 110%" 

And even if they for a time...exalt a "thing"...thinking by it...they exalt Him.

"ye do search the scriptures for in them you believe you have eternal life and they are that which testify of me, but you will not come to me that you might have life".

Does one think...probably one even just like myself...this is, and could only be "being said" to _someone else_?


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## ambush80 (May 3, 2018)

This has some fat to chew on.



Day trip said:


> Hi Art, this is exactly what I feel.  Not every action is of the Spirit.  When we fight against anything in a defensive self-preservation stance then we are operating as humans. When we act out of selfishness and through separation, we are not of the Spirit.



It sounds like you're calling our innate, hardwired predispositions to self preservation, kin selection, and in group preference "human" and any altruistic behaviors are "spiritual".  Is that right?  Have you ever seen any naturalistic, evolutionary explanations for altruism?  Are you familiar with the notion of Reciprocal Altruism?




Day trip said:


> When we fight for love, for understanding and operate from a pure heart without preferences but only with faith that what is true is right regardless of outcome,  then we are operating from the Spirit.  We all do it but rarely recognize it.



I'll split the difference with you here because I think we might be calling the same thing different things.  These things that you mention can be explained by evolution.  They're not necessarily magical or otherworldly.  They can be seen in our primate relatives and some of them in even lower animals.  They're natural behaviors.  You can call them "the spirit" and I won't disparage the term.  I also won't try to debate any supernatural origin of them at this time.  Let's just agree that they happen and that social sciences and even neurology have been able to map some of those behaviors and can describe them analytically.  




Day trip said:


> Aren’t these the moments when submit to our truest nature? Aren’t these the moments that we have no agenda and only strive for truth?  We don’t even know that something special has happened, it seems so “right”.   It’s like only later we realize the Spirit guided us, God guided us!, As we believers say - mere terminology but all are loved and guided by God, he knows that nothing we do can truely separates ourselves from him other than our blatantly denying  truth and only truly evil people do this.  Even our A/A friends reveal how they obey truth.  They may deny our versions/stories but not truth.  Mere terminology.



I'll split the difference here as well.  I'll agree that we are "guided" by impulses, but again, there's been plenty of research that can show an evolutionary trail of breadcrumbs leading to what you call "spiritual" behavior.  No "author" had to write them on our hearts.  No "author" is implicitly implied by our behaviors.  I'm sure some will think that I'm trying to discredit God by saying that these behaviors can arise naturally.  I'm not.  I'm just pointing out what we know right now using our best poo-poo detector we have and that's science.  There's no real concrete evidence that points to the supernatural. Realize that at this point, saying God was involved is a merely a preference that's not grounded in reason.


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## ambush80 (May 3, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Do you think if there was no bible that people wouldn’t divide and fight?



If there weren't any religions many of the most serious conflicts we have today would be gone.  We would still fight over resources and maybe power but I truly believe that if people placed the highest premium on rationality that many of those problems would disappear as well.

Thought experiment:

Imagine any conflict great or small that can't be solved by extreme rationality.  What's a conflict that you've got going on that reason can't fix?


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## jmharris23 (May 3, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> If there weren't any religions many of the most serious conflicts we have today would be gone.  We would still fight over resources and maybe power but I truly believe that if people placed the highest premium on rationality that many of those problems would disappear as well.
> 
> Thought experiment:
> 
> Imagine any conflict great or small that can't be solved by extreme rationality.  What's a conflict that you've got going on that reason can't fix?




I get what you’re saying, but I feel like if it wasn’t religion it’d just be something else. I don’t have a ton of faith in humanity


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## ambush80 (May 3, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I get what you’re saying, but I feel like if it wasn’t religion it’d just be something else. I don’t have a ton of faith in humanity



I know you don't because you think we're filthy rags.  What would happen if you thought we are potentially good and bad?  How would you move through the world?  How else do you think that the idea that we're born deserving of He11 might be affecting your psyche?  What would an alternative philosophy do to you?


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## ambush80 (May 3, 2018)

I recognize that I'm sometimes mean to my wife.  I take my pain and project it on her because she is kind and good and I know she will take it.  But she won't take it forever.  Can I solve this problem with reason and rationality?  You bet.  

Isrealis and Palestinians are fighting over a stupid piece of desert.  Can they solve the problem with rationality?  You bet.  Will they?  Probably not.  Why?  I'm guessing it has something to do with the literal word of God.


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## WaltL1 (May 3, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I get what you’re saying, but I feel like if it wasn’t religion it’d just be something else. I don’t have a ton of faith in humanity


I'm calling BSP (belief self preservation) 
Name a "something else" that you would put on equal footing with religion that man would squabble over?


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## 660griz (May 3, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I don’t have a ton of faith in humanity



Blame the parent.


----------



## Day trip (May 3, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> This has some fat to chew on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The “Spirit” I’m speaking of isn’t just altruistic.  It’s something else.  If I could be less vague I would but... 

I am a science guy, (veterinarian by day, amateur philosopher by night) and I absolutely stand behind evolution.  I don’t think evolution contradicts God.  I believe we evolved above animals with this impulse (The Holy Spirit) which allows us to differentiate and choose between “good” and “ evil”. 

No animal ever does anything wrong!  Ever!  They will do what they are genetically programmed to do or what they are trained to do, always.  Now animals may do things that are inconvienent to us, even dangerous but animals never “sin” ie say no to God.  They can’t.  They may show a resemblance of love and compassion but an animal caring instinctively for its young or its herd does not fulfill the true integrity of God’s love.  

People sin because they can choose to say no to God instead of acting out of this new ability that I call the Holy Spirit.  I think the Bible tries to explain this but from a perspective without science.  I also think the Bible tries to excuse us of our new ability to sin by blaming the serpent or blaming God instead of seeing that through his love, he gave us the ability to choose and thereby become heirs to the kingdom.  The language and metaphor may turn people off because of religions failures but if we think beyond the limited definitions that religeons give us, these metaphors work very well.  

Like Emerson says, “every generation needs to write its own books”.  I’ve written an essay to myself about the creation myth.  It’s long but if you want I could try and summarize.


----------



## ambush80 (May 3, 2018)

Day trip said:


> The “Spirit” I’m speaking of isn’t just altruistic.  It’s something else.  If I could be less vague I would but...



Well, I don't think we can talk about "something else" then, can we?    



Day trip said:


> I am a science guy, (veterinarian by day, amateur philosopher by night) and I absolutely stand behind evolution.  I don’t think evolution contradicts God.  I believe we evolved above animals with this impulse (The Holy Spirit) which allows us to differentiate and choose between “good” and “ evil”.



Are you saying that this mysterious impulse is a more developed form of consciousness than what animals have of a faculty that's completely different from cognition?



Day trip said:


> No animal ever does anything wrong!  Ever!  They will do what they are genetically programmed to do or what they are trained to do, always.  Now animals may do things that are inconvienent to us, even dangerous but animals never “sin” ie say no to God.  They can’t.  They may show a resemblance of love and compassion but an animal caring instinctively for its young or its herd does not fulfill the true integrity of God’s love.



But they do have a sense of right and wrong very similar to ours, especially the higher primates.  They even perform what appear to be superstitious or religious behaviors.  



Day trip said:


> People sin because they can choose to say no to God instead of acting out of this new ability that I call the Holy Spirit.  I think the Bible tries to explain this but from a perspective without science.  I also think the Bible tries to excuse us of our new ability to sin by blaming the serpent or blaming God instead of seeing that through his love, he gave us the ability to choose and thereby become heirs to the kingdom.  The language and metaphor may turn people off because of religions failures but if we think beyond the limited definitions that religions give us, these metaphors work very well.
> 
> Like Emerson says, “every generation needs to write its own books”.  I’ve written an essay to myself about the creation myth.  It’s long but if you want I could try and summarize.



Primates can sin.  They have moral structures very similar to ours.  They know when one of their troop acts immorally and they punish them.


----------



## Day trip (May 3, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Well, I don't think we can talk about "something else" then, can we?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you saying that this mysterious impulse is a more developed form of consciousness than what animals have of a faculty that's completely different from cognition.



Yes




Sinning monkeys?  You must explain


----------



## jmharris23 (May 3, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I know you don't because you think we're filthy rags.  What would happen if you thought we are potentially good and bad?  How would you move through the world?  How else do you think that the idea that we're born deserving of He11 might be affecting your psyche?  What would an alternative philosophy do to you?



Just because I believe in the inherent depravity of man doesn’t mean that I think man is incapable of doing good. For instance, my wife is a saint, and she would be without any religion. She’s just a kind, gentle, patient woman. 

Some people are like that....some aren’t. My belief that we are born deserving of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored has no effect on whether I think people can be good and do good things. They certainly can. Some of the kindest and most moral people I’ve known were not Christians.


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## jmharris23 (May 3, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I recognize that I'm sometimes mean to my wife.  I take my pain and project it on her because she is kind and good and I know she will take it.  But she won't take it forever.  Can I solve this problem with reason and rationality?  You bet.
> 
> Isrealis and Palestinians are fighting over a stupid piece of desert.  Can they solve the problem with rationality?  You bet.  Will they?  Probably not.  Why?  I'm guessing it has something to do with the literal word of God.



Israelis and Palestinians are not fighting because of the Word, but the Word does tell you why they are fighting.


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## jmharris23 (May 3, 2018)

660griz said:


> Blame the parent.




Not always...I know some terrible people who had great parents.


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## jmharris23 (May 3, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I'm calling BSP (belief self preservation)
> Name a "something else" that you would put on equal footing with religion that man would squabble over?



I don’t know? I’ll see if I can do a little research and see if they argue about anything in Sweden or communist countries. They are both mostly irreligious.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 3, 2018)

Even the book of John has been tampered with. If you will notice, John 1 -18 was added at some point. Notice how john repeats himself in 19 on revealing that 1-18 was added. Then..... notice the double ending... Where he finished the book.... and then someone added to it. 21:25 is the second ending. 20:31 was the first ending


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## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I don’t know? I’ll see if I can do a little research and see if they argue about anything in Sweden or communist countries. They are both mostly irreligious.


You really don't have to research that. I agree with you that people argue about stuff anywhere and everywhere.
But if you are going to research it my question was 


> Name a "something else" that you would put on equal footing with religion that man would squabble over?


In other words, what is something else that people argue over that the death toll rises to the level of slaughter that people are willing to inflict upon each other due to opposing religious beliefs as the foundation.


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## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> Just because I believe in the inherent depravity of man doesnâ€™t mean that I think man is incapable of doing good. For instance, my wife is a saint, and she would be without any religion. Sheâ€™s just a kind, gentle, patient woman.
> 
> Some people are like that....some arenâ€™t. My belief that we are born deserving of CensoredCensoredCensoredCensored has no effect on whether I think people can be good and do good things. They certainly can. Some of the kindest and most moral people Iâ€™ve known were not Christians.


I just cant grasp this line of thinking. There right in front of you is actual, solid, convincing evidence -


> For instance, my wife is a saint, and she would be without any religion. Sheâ€™s just a kind, gentle, patient woman.


Yet you are willing to ignore that because Christianity tells you she is inherently depraved.
de·praved
[dÉ™ËˆprÄ�vd]
ADJECTIVE
morally corrupt; wicked.

That ^ is the complete opposite of what you know her to be.
To me its a shame that you cant believe in God without this nonsense that goes along with it.

Yes or No -
Is your wife morally bankrupt; wicked?


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## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Even the book of John has been tampered with. If you will notice, John 1 -18 was added at some point. Notice how john repeats himself in 19 on revealing that 1-18 was added. Then..... notice the double ending... Where he finished the book.... and then someone added to it. 21:25 is the second ending. 20:31 was the first ending


Christians don't care. Its God's word. The End.


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## Israel (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I just cant grasp this line of thinking. There right in front of you is actual, solid, convincing evidence -
> 
> Yet you are willing to ignore that because Christianity tells you she is inherently depraved.
> de·praved
> ...



Unless a man is _given_ to see what excels, how could he believe?

And who is going to blame anyone for not seeing?

Had Jesus come to only parade his good sight, some might find excuse. But once a man "sees" what Jesus was made willing to pay to bequeath His eyes, to make plain His sight...to be _the giver_...and not _just _a teller...not just a talker...

But telling is indeed...where it starts...in the Word. Who can escape this? Who can escape the judgment he must find inherent...part and parcel of, inseparable from...the thing he both releases and embraces in absolute simultaneity the moment he opens his mouth? I can't. I know...I can't.

How could a man ever know? How could he know the significance of Word? How would he ever know even his own word is seed? Sperma? Shot about in such promiscuity and disregard by a thing convinced they are for nothing but play? Ad how his own word...even seeds the ground he treads. How could he ever know?

Some words grow quickly...some not...some grow at such a remove "in time" that the man doesn't even know they are his own result. How could he ever put that together? How could he ever see...this thing I contend with _now_..."here"...is the very result, the manifest and perfect form of the thing I once planted...there?

If I "fight" it, and make a show of it, I am only seeking to make clear (in a complete delusion)..."this is not me"... "this is not _of me_"

Jesus is/was...RELENTLESS. He shows, in Himself, and through Himself...the thread to, and of, consequence. A thread all but imperceptible...all but invisible to man...and certainly to the one who in ignorance, and of such dark and blinding ignorance...that sperma is just for the "fun" of spraying about. No care of what it touches, no care of what it could contaminate, no care of what is pregnable...to it.

Jesus accomplished what appears _two_ yet totally inseparable things. A complete and total care in His spread of seed. He is/was...never promiscuous with it. So careful...as to never "use" His own. And in that manifested through Himself the cost to one such, and so speaking. 

This costs...here. There is a cost to, and a manifest consequence to spreading seed. He never tried to escape it. He said it...always. Another thing rises up to resist. And resist it will, and does...it is even ordained to it. Made for it. Here for man...it is absolutely inescapable.

(And when a man finds this...even in himself, particularly _in himself_ he may be seeing the garden, and learning...he has also a garden, indeed his only garden...to tend...yes...man needs to have a care in what "he says to himself". If he may find the home base, the headquarters of where the liar has chosen to sit...he may, in that seeing of all despair, all desperate knowledge of being lost to himself through lie, find a key of hope)

But without manifestation of that thread to consequence, without it being made plain...first to him, then in himself..._even_...he has no idea...cannot have any idea. To each man, from each man this is immutable..."all of a man's ways are right...in _his own_ eyes". Every man who has ever been...believes he "knows" why he is the way he is....to an approving of it. 

Don't even think that the most _seeming_ desperate "act"...suicide, is manifest proof otherwise...for, to the suicide that course..._even_ that course, is approved of himself.

(O! This is too hard Lord! A man must even hate his very own self...before he can be a disciple? How can a man find this...do this?)

The seeming "other" thing (but that is totally inseparable, and therefore really isn't another thing...at all) is "what man is as _good_ as his word?" 

I know, have seen, have learned...that man...is not me. I have promised moon and stars (making promises is such fun...a real ooomph in the sperma release) but that's another matter...the why of Jesus saying "let your yes be yes, and your no be no...whatever is more than these comes from the evil one." Someone wants us to believe we can "make" promise. (who hasn't either tripped at their own...or condemned another in found brokenness?)

Jesus didn't say "I promise you...I really really promise you...you will see me rise from the dead" (This is going to take a lot of ooomphing!) That resurrection...until seen, unless seen...leaves every man, without exception, without the sight of the only One...who truly is "as good as His word".

Till then a man imagines, O! so vainly imagines...it is himself.

God commands every man to repent. O, but this seems so unsavory, I don't like being commanded, I don't like having the plain display that "I am not God" manifest by repentance, I don't like admission..."I fall short"...have fallen short...do always fall short...and so I will stuff my ears...pretending...I hear no such...command.

What can open ears to command? What can open heart to being "under command"?


Only the sight of this:

No man takes it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

Such a sight "does" what it must do to the rebel, the "reactor" against _all_ truth...the one who parades about "I am alone...under no command" in such complete darkness...he doesn't even know his command is to be that...say that.

Jesus shows...what being in submission _under command_...leads to. Even after the suffering at the hands that believes it can, by ridding itself of him...rid itself...of command.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Christians don't care. Its God's word. The End.


Probably not.... however what is interesting is that 99% have never noticed it. And it's not like it's highly camouflaged.


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## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> Probably not.... however what is interesting is that 99% have never noticed it. And it's not like it highly camouflaged.


In general, people don't notice what they don't want to notice. We only notice that which confirms what we already think/believe. Its a built in self defense mechanism.
It requires effort to over ride that and a willingness to possibly prove ourselves wrong.
Only a small percentage of folks are willing to risk that.


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## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Yes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sin is a Christian word for doing wrong/unacceptable behavior..
Its a common observation to see a monkey mother disciplining her child for doing wrong/unacceptable behavior.
Go to YouTube and pick a video of that behavior.


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## Israel (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> In general, people don't notice what they don't want to notice. We only notice that which confirms what we already think/believe. Its a built in self defense mechanism.
> It requires effort to over ride that and a willingness to possibly prove ourselves wrong.
> Only a small percentage of folks are willing to risk that.



When one sees the extent to which Jesus suffered (allowed) His applecart to be overturned... 

For he has made him, who knew no sin, to be sin for us; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

If one wonders "what was for Jesus a cakewalk...but for me seems unfair"...one might look again.

See who allowed himself made pavement, that others might walk...the only true and faithful...walker.


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## 1gr8bldr (May 4, 2018)

I always see an emphasis put on the suffering of Jesus.... Truth is that we have had military captives for our country who suffered more. Many men have died for another. This emphasis distorts the simple gospel. While it was horrible, a terrible way to die, many people have crashed a car and not being found, died a long slow death. The emphasis is that he was willing to give up his life. And yes,  suffered, terribly. But the emphasis is obedience. While I'm at it, not as much as I used to see it, but some churches specifically put a huge emphasis on the blood. The emphasis is not the blood. That is only an indication of death. All the blood of the OT was never used from a creature that lived afterward. It signifies death. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, blood means nothing. I attended a church for about 6 months that was obsessed with the blood. Back to the point, we don't need to look back into the OT and pull out everything about suffering and try to apply it to Jesus, trying to force the verse into referring to the messiah. Jews argue that these verses are not referring to the messiah, and they are right. However, it does not mean that Jesus was not the messiah either. But forcing emphasis leads to dead end walls rather than open doors


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## jmharris23 (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You really don't have to research that. I agree with you that people argue about stuff anywhere and everywhere.
> But if you are going to research it my question was
> 
> In other words, what is something else that people argue over that the death toll rises to the level of slaughter that people are willing to inflict upon each other due to opposing religious beliefs as the foundation.



Nothing that I am aware of. 

But I understood your question to be asking “would people fight about something in a world without religion, the way they’ve done over religion in a world that includes religion?” 

My answer to that is in a world without religion they would find something else to commit atrocities over.


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## jmharris23 (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I just cant grasp this line of thinking. There right in front of you is actual, solid, convincing evidence -
> 
> Yet you are willing to ignore that because Christianity tells you she is inherently depraved.
> de·praved
> ...



I don’t ignore the inherent goodness of my wife. I recognize it and admitted it.  I also don’t believe she, or you, or I  are morally bankrupt. I just don’t think she or we are good enough to inherit the eternal life promised in the Bible. 

We aren’t filthy rags compared to each other, but compared to the holiness of God we don’t match up.


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## ambush80 (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Sin is a Christian word for doing wrong/unacceptable behavior..
> Its a common observation to see a monkey mother disciplining her child for doing wrong/unacceptable behavior.
> Go to YouTube and pick a video of that behavior.



Great answer.  This example of behavior makes me laugh:



"So, this is basically the Wall Street protest that you see here"

The whole TED talk is good:

<div style="max-width:854px"><div style="position:relative;height:0;padding-bottom:56.25%"></div></div>


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## oldfella1962 (May 4, 2018)

mankind has always fought (whether one-on-one or large scale warfare) over resources of varying kinds - even male animals fight as part of the mating process to prove dominance or otherwise impress the ladies. There is always competition and always will be. But mankind is the only species to fight over ideas, concepts, revenge, beliefs, irrational fears, etc. with religion being just one silly thing that doesn't really have to be fought over. So without religion we still would fight over non-tangible things when our emotions or beliefs get the best of us. Granted fighting in the name of your religion is full-on insanity & hypocrisy. In Srebenica Bosnia the Serbs slaughtered 5,000 (maybe 2,000 I can't remember) muslims over a few day period. Trust me by then the place was blown to smithereens so there was little of value to fight over. So they only killed them for revenge or whatever, or just because they were muslim.


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## ambush80 (May 4, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> mankind has always fought (whether one-on-one or large scale warfare) over resources of varying kinds - even male animals fight as part of the mating process to prove dominance or otherwise impress the ladies. There is always competition and always will be. But mankind is the only species to fight over ideas, concepts, revenge, beliefs, irrational fears, etc. with religion being just one silly thing that doesn't really have to be fought over. So without religion we still would fight over non-tangible things when our emotions or beliefs get the best of us. Granted fighting in the name of your religion is full-on insanity & hypocrisy. In Srebenica Bosnia the Serbs slaughtered 5,000 (maybe 2,000 I can't remember) muslims over a few day period. Trust me by then the place was blown to smithereens so there was little of value to fight over. So they only killed them for revenge or whatever, or just because they were muslim.



Yup.

Tribalism was, and can be argued, still is, very important for people to have evolved the way that we did. I think that we could benefit from reducing the tribalism instinct, maybe even subdue it like we did with rape.  Religions and nationalities are the greatest signifiers of tribal identity.


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## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I don’t ignore the inherent goodness of my wife. I recognize it and admitted it.  I also don’t believe she, or you, or I  are morally bankrupt. I just don’t think she or we are good enough to inherit the eternal life promised in the Bible.
> 
> We aren’t filthy rags compared to each other, but compared to the holiness of God we don’t match up.


Thanks for clarifying.


> but compared to the holiness of God we don’t match up.


Maybe not.
Is it ok if I give myself a few brownie points for not committing near genocide? Maybe another brownie point or two for not eternally torturing the folks who don't think I'm all that and a bag of chips? Couple more brownie points for not................. well you know what Christianity gives God credit for better than I do.


----------



## ambush80 (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Maybe not.
> Is it ok if I give myself a few brownie points for not committing near genocide? Maybe another brownie point or two for not eternally torturing the folks who don't think I'm all that and a bag of chips? Couple more brownie points for not................. well you know what Christianity gives God credit for better than I do.



I don't know anybody who would do what the God of the Bible does to people, not anyone for any reason would do those things.  I can't see how anyone excuses it.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know anybody who would do what the God of the Bible does to people, not anyone for any reason would do those things.  I can't see how anyone excuses it.


Theres a lot of folks who will excuse anything if the payoff is big enough.


----------



## Israel (May 4, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> mankind has always fought (whether one-on-one or large scale warfare) over resources of varying kinds - even male animals fight as part of the mating process to prove dominance or otherwise impress the ladies. There is always competition and always will be. But mankind is the only species to fight over ideas, concepts, revenge, beliefs, irrational fears, etc. with religion being just one silly thing that doesn't really have to be fought over. So without religion we still would fight over non-tangible things when our emotions or beliefs get the best of us. Granted fighting in the name of your religion is full-on insanity & hypocrisy. In Srebenica Bosnia the Serbs slaughtered 5,000 (maybe 2,000 I can't remember) muslims over a few day period. Trust me by then the place was blown to smithereens so there was little of value to fight over. So they only killed them for revenge or whatever, or just because they were muslim.



You seer.

When it comes out...as it all will, when what is to be seen is seen and what was never worth the seeing is made plain for what it is, or was...all are without excuse.

The scientist who skewed results for what? Notoriety? Publication?...some form of a thing he thought he lacked and sought to gain by what?...a very conscious mishandling of a thing he volunteered to, and in a trust of; then thought by position he had authority over.

The professional pulpiteer...what will he be shown when motives are uncovered? 

The _rational_ man who thought his job was to make a sense of all things pertaining to himself, but in a moment discovers he is now unemployed and lost to the single thing he could never make sense of. The end of himself.

The brilliant man arguing from his brilliance and cleverness finding he is undone by a mute and dumb silence that swallows him. Calling for more light...as though it is at his command.

Princesses and peas, all. Finding there can never be enough mattresses to put between themselves and the one irksome thing. All else found perfect...except this one small, niggling thing. Always there, always ready to provoke...never too small that it is not found...a bother.

Rid of one...another will gladly take its place. Resolve all in sight...and the new frontier's gilded frame now rises up to taunt. Churning and churning...telling itself it makes progress with wheels forever spinning.

Always a stamping, and stampeding to the next new thing that ignorantly thought will finally consume all of old...ignorance.

And fights...all along the way...of what is called progress...but the fight remains. To conquer, to have, to possess, and nothing is ever found too small to not fight over.

Money? What is more of idea, and so less of substance...that has claimed a gazillion souls? The salt that once bought a man's day of labor is sprinkled thoughtlessly, casually on the icy steps so the man can safely walk to his Beemer...to chase his version of it.  

What forms  success may take to stir up envy...and bawling, and brawling. Always ready to morph in mind...to what can catch, will catch...never making plain its fatal flaw:

The penalty of success is to be bored by people who used to snub you.

And the churning continues...seeming without an end, but an _Oh so very plain one_, that is ignored at will. And by it.

Men will kill over a button. How much more a slaughter is found in their ideas...in which _all others_ must be found discard. A man's ideal allows no room for anyone...but himself. He knows...everything _else_ is a peril to it.

Jesus asked me an (O! too pointed) question in his apparent rudeness, his intrusion, his obvious lack of care for keeping his place, in the place assigned to him _by me_ 

How can you believe, which receive honor one of another, and seek not the honor that comes from God only?



You seer, you.


----------



## jmharris23 (May 4, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Thanks for clarifying.
> 
> Maybe not.
> Is it ok if I give myself a few brownie points for not committing near genocide? Maybe another brownie point or two for not eternally torturing the folks who don't think I'm all that and a bag of chips? Couple more brownie points for not................. well you know what Christianity gives God credit for better than I do.




It’s ok with me


----------



## jmharris23 (May 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know anybody who would do what the God of the Bible does to people, not anyone for any reason would do those things.  I can't see how anyone excuses it.



I guess I don’t feel like I need to excuse it. I look at it more like, “ If there is a God, and he’s the God of the Bible, then he can do whatever he wishes and wills and who am I to judge the “judge of all the earth.”


----------



## ambush80 (May 4, 2018)

jmharris23 said:


> I guess I don’t feel like I need to excuse it. I look at it more like, “ If there is a God, and he’s the God of the Bible, then he can do whatever he wishes and wills and who am I to judge the “judge of all the earth.”




Of course he can.  But I never would and neither would you.  If I were to choose between you two for a pal it would be you.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 4, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I don't know anybody who would do what the God of the Bible does to people, not anyone for any reason would do those things.  I can't see how anyone excuses it.



because "his ways are not like our ways" in other words god must have good reasons for what he does but we just can't understand them, not that we should ever question what he does anyway, lest we end up on the business end of eternal punishment.


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## WaltL1 (May 5, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> because "his ways are not like our ways" in other words god must have good reasons for what he does but we just can't understand them, not that we should ever question what he does anyway, lest we end up on the business end of eternal punishment.


That's what it boils down to.
I don't buy this "who am I to judge" carp.
Its a handy excuse nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Israel (May 5, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Of course he can.  But I never would and neither would you.  If I were to choose between you two for a pal it would be you.



Yes!


----------



## Israel (May 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Theres a lot of folks who will excuse anything if the payoff is big enough.



Then another servant came and said, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have laid away in a piece of cloth. For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You withdraw what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’ 

His master replied, ‘You wicked servant, I will judge you by your own words. So you knew that I am a harsh man, withdrawing what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?

Why then did you not deposit my money in the bank, and upon my return I could have collected it with interest?

Then he told those standing by, ‘Take the mina from him and give it to the one who has ten minas.’


Now a man named Ananias, together with his wife Sapphira, also sold a piece of property. With his wife’s full knowledge, he kept back some of the proceeds for himself, but brought a portion and laid it at the apostles’ feet...
Then Peter said, “Ananias, how is it that Satan has filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and withhold some of the proceeds from the land? Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal? How could you conceive such a deed in your heart? You have not lied to men, but to God!” On hearing these words, Ananias fell down and died. And great fear came over all who heard what had happened.

Is the first man who got that "extra" mina free?
What mechanism was "in play" that even got it...to him?
How did he "come by" that extra mina? That even overabundance of mina...then added to his own?
Does he owe a debt? 

Is he indebted _at all _to the man from whom it was taken? 

(It doesn't seem at all the Master _laid such_ upon him.)

But...is he free? Is he? Free to even...see that?

Why do I have now...not only "my mina"...but an extra?
How is this?


Is he free?

Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Is one free? Is one free to say to the man from whom the mina was taken..."I have extra, now...here's five"


"But won't you get the Master upset? He took my mina, and _I am sure_ he meant me to have none"

Yes, I know that is what you think. Have always thought.
And so you have always and only known him...as taker.

But look, I know him as giver, and I do not fear what he might do to me when I give you...some of what he has made mine.
Take five.

Did it not belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, was it not at your disposal?

Is any...free?

Free to not even..._have to_ lie?

Who here was killed "in the flood?"
Who here died...as Ananais and Saphira did?
Who here..._is_ the child in this picture?
Who here...has not found evidence..._to use_...against God?

But...is it yours...to use?
If so...who allowed it so? Who allowed sight to see...it?

Who is free? Any?

Is any free...to grab that child...and resist all urge to "first" take a photo? Who has that _first urge_? And there manifestly abandons all hope or possibility of indictment...for salvation?

I have seen One.


Who is free.


----------



## bullethead (May 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> That's what it boils down to.
> I don't buy this "who am I to judge" carp.
> Its a handy excuse nothing more, nothing less.



Absolutely.
The loving God claims and its actions do not mesh. I see believers constantly making excuses to try to brush aside the actions of a psychopath that they worship.

Time and time again their claims do not even meet the actions that come from the very scripture that they use.


----------



## bullethead (May 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> Then another servant came and said, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have laid away in a piece of cloth. For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You withdraw what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’
> 
> His master replied, ‘You wicked servant, I will judge you by your own words. So you knew that I am a harsh man, withdrawing what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?
> 
> ...



Whatever you call master doesnt allow anything.


----------



## Israel (May 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Whatever you call master doesnt allow anything.


Grace is the factor, mercy and grace the overarching and immutable contents...of the Master.

Mercy can only be appreciated by what knows it has done nothing to merit it. To that thing...it is a wonder...to discover what it has been diligently working against...is now gift.

Each man to his course.


----------



## Israel (May 5, 2018)

1gr8bldr said:


> I always see an emphasis put on the suffering of Jesus.... Truth is that we have had military captives for our country who suffered more. Many men have died for another. This emphasis distorts the simple gospel. While it was horrible, a terrible way to die, many people have crashed a car and not being found, died a long slow death. The emphasis is that he was willing to give up his life. And yes,  suffered, terribly. But the emphasis is obedience. While I'm at it, not as much as I used to see it, but some churches specifically put a huge emphasis on the blood. The emphasis is not the blood. That is only an indication of death. All the blood of the OT was never used from a creature that lived afterward. It signifies death. Without the death and resurrection of Jesus, blood means nothing. I attended a church for about 6 months that was obsessed with the blood. Back to the point, we don't need to look back into the OT and pull out everything about suffering and try to apply it to Jesus, trying to force the verse into referring to the messiah. Jews argue that these verses are not referring to the messiah, and they are right. However, it does not mean that Jesus was not the messiah either. But forcing emphasis leads to dead end walls rather than open doors





> I always see an emphasis put on the suffering of Jesus



Me, too.  But a man may be delivered from the error of thinking they only began shortly after Jesus's appearance in Pilate's hall.

Perhaps till we are given to understand the great difference between:


"Of myself I can do nothing"


is not   


"for myself I can do nothing"


Jesus' words here:

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?


Must remain a mystery, but to be revealed.


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## bullethead (May 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> Grace is the factor, mercy and grace the overarching and immutable contents...of the Master.
> 
> Mercy can only be appreciated by what knows it has done nothing to merit it. To that thing...it is a wonder...to discover what it has been diligently working against...is now gift.
> 
> Each man to his course.



No grace no master.


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## WaltL1 (May 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> Then another servant came and said, ‘Master, here is your mina, which I have laid away in a piece of cloth. For I was afraid of you, because you are a harsh man. You withdraw what you did not deposit and reap what you did not sow.’
> 
> His master replied, ‘You wicked servant, I will judge you by your own words. So you knew that I am a harsh man, withdrawing what I did not deposit and reaping what I did not sow?
> 
> ...


You know what Israel, heres a good example of when I say your posts make me think. I'm not sure if this is the thought you intended for me to have but.....
You have just caused me to rethink my aversion to the "who am I to judge" line of thinking.
A/As ask for nothing, expect nothing, take nothing, want nothing, give nothing..... from this "master".
And maybe that buys us the right to "judge".
Christians on the other hand.....
So yes, "who are they to judge" the master from whom they take, expect, want, ask.......


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## bullethead (May 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You know what Israel, heres a good example of when I say your posts make me think. I'm not sure if this is the thought you intended for me to have but.....
> You have just caused me to rethink my aversion to the "who am I to judge" line of thinking.
> A/As ask for nothing, expect nothing, take nothing, want nothing, give nothing..... from this "master".
> And maybe that buys us the right to "judge".
> ...



Exactly. His effort to get his point across is monumental. But it doesn't apply to a non believer. It is for fellow believers, who are already on his side anyway 
So in reality, its a sermon begging for an audience that isn't in here. When broadway won't have you, perform in the subway.


----------



## Israel (May 5, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You know what Israel, heres a good example of when I say your posts make me think. I'm not sure if this is the thought you intended for me to have but.....
> You have just caused me to rethink my aversion to the "who am I to judge" line of thinking.
> A/As ask for nothing, expect nothing, take nothing, want nothing, give nothing..... from this "master".
> And maybe that buys us the right to "judge".
> ...



Yes! Not wrong to me...just not quite...complete.

The believer _invites_...judgment...indeed is appointed to it. He _is just_, _has just _been convinced...it doesn't "end" in man.

But...he can't "hate" judgment...as a thing of itself. Oh...it may be tedious to be judged of men, wearisome, annoying...but he cannot (would not) take judgment of itself...off the table...once he has seen how God has rightly "judged" Jesus.

God has adjudged Jesus worthy of all honor, all glory, all praise...therefore to (if one could) _do away with _judgment (as a thing in toto) he'd find he's excluding the very thing upon which he stands...for salvation.

But...it is God's judgment he sees. Or,_ is to_. Oh, he can swat at flies, be bothered by every, or any slight (real or imagined)...but he will find himself diverted from beholding...God's judgment/opinion...of Jesus Christ. He learns which eventually is far more captivating. And even...healthy to him. But he can never deny judgment or uphold the stance: "judgment must go!" in toto...unless he wants to find out where a man with no senses goes. (Got the T shirt)

And, he may also learn...it is most often beneficial...to reserve his own. He knows how he once himself "judged" Jesus, and by a light unbidden was made to concur with both, who and what Jesus is (Lord of all) and also..."be careful about trusting your judgment" it has led to the very thing for which Jesus gave himself to save from the consequences of.

Now, I get some don't think they sin...anymore than I did...they make mistakes, have lapses, don't yet "know enough"...didn't have the right info...etc. Of course...that's precisely who Jesus came for...not only the ones who already _know_ they are sinners and in need of a Savior...but even those who imagine sin is not at rule in them...just...little oooopsies.

yeah...who am I to judge...who am I to make see? I couldn't do it for myself...I sure can't do it for another.

But don't for a moment think I am not having all I write, speak, do...judged...in both need of it...and learning to be quite glad in it. I'm beginning to know who judged Jesus...rightly...and I dare not try to escape that, by the willfully presenting the slightest hindrance against men enjoying their exercise of it. Go for it! 

Even bad judgment...has a way of causing the Lord to appear! 
Really...who would want to miss THAT???

We'll just all see who...has judged...right. And was judged Righteous of all.


I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but just as surely as it ain't me...


----------



## ambush80 (May 5, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Exactly. His effort to get his point across is monumental. But it doesn't apply to a non believer. It is for fellow believers, who are already on his side anyway
> So in reality, its a sermon begging for an audience that isn't in here. When broadway won't have you, perform in the subway.



Alpologetic busking....... Interesting.

That's an interesting observation.  But he's not unlike any of the other believers that come in here.  None of them ever say "Let's start with the premise that God doesn't exist...".  In fact, _we all_ start with the hypothesis that God exists, and then we debate about why it isn't true or why it isn't the God of Christianity.  

The difference is, as you point out, that Isreal's posts are usually SERMONS.  It's a bit insincere.  Not that it isn't heartfelt, but it seems like someone who walks up to a fishing hole carrying a tackle box with no intent to fish and then goes on and on railing about how cruel fishing is to the fish.  I imagine that if we were all sitting around on chairs talking about this stuff that Izzy would be standing on his chair when it came his turn to talk.  

SFD is almost more tolerable when he rides by on his scooter and yells "You guys are stupid and you suck!!"


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## ambush80 (May 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> Yes! Not wrong to me...just not quite...complete.
> 
> The believer _invites_...judgment...indeed is appointed to it. He _is just_, _has just _been convinced...it doesn't "end" in man.
> 
> ...



"You just wait til your Father gets home!!!!"


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## bullethead (May 5, 2018)

Israel said:


> Yes! Not wrong to me...just not quite...complete.
> 
> The believer _invites_...judgment...indeed is appointed to it. He _is just_, _has just _been convinced...it doesn't "end" in man.
> 
> ...



Keep On Asserting On


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## bullethead (May 5, 2018)

> We'll just all see who...has judged...right. And was judged Righteous of all



I am beginning to think that deep down you know there is nothing beyond death so you figure that you might as well assert your piece while you can.


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## WaltL1 (May 5, 2018)

> So yes, "who are they to judge" the master from whom they take, expect, want, ask.......





Israel said:


> Yes!


But Israel don't you see that's not love for God or respect or awe or worship or fear or.....
Its simply "he can give me what I want so I pretend its all those things ^ that it really isn't".
Its nothing more than this -


> Originally Posted by WaltL1
> Theres a lot of folks who will excuse anything if the payoff is big enough.


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 5, 2018)

I would like to say Israel's comments make me think but in all honesty they are way, way over my head or something because I get maybe 25 percent of it. 

Anywho he started one comment saying I was a "seer". I tried to follow but I probably missed his point. But he mentioned trying to find the truth or trying to find more money or something but that doesn't make people happy - I think.

If so, that is not the case at all with me. I don't care much for possessions, or status, or more money than I need, etc. I'm perfectly content with who I am, and only really get joy from caring for my family. I am grateful for the opportunities I have and always try to stay positive and get along with everyone and feel empathy for everyone.

That said I do indeed seek real truth not influenced by attitudes, personal beliefs, culture, etc. There is no "best way" or "only way" only "a better way" and as the world changes better ideas & beliefs will always come along.

Science & education will never have all the answers but science will keep finding answers because science keeps acting questions and never accepting the answer we find as "gospel" is the whole point of being a human IMO.


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## Israel (May 6, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> I would like to say Israel's comments make me think but in all honesty they are way, way over my head or something because I get maybe 25 percent of it.
> 
> Anywho he started one comment saying I was a "seer". I tried to follow but I probably missed his point. But he mentioned trying to find the truth or trying to find more money or something but that doesn't make people happy - I think.
> 
> ...






> mankind has always fought (whether one-on-one or large scale warfare) over resources of varying kinds - even male animals fight as part of the mating process to prove dominance or otherwise impress the ladies. There is always competition and always will be.mankind has always fought (whether one-on-one or large scale warfare) over resources of varying kinds - even male animals fight as part of the mating process to prove dominance or otherwise impress the ladies. There is always competition and always will be. But mankind is the only species to fight over ideas, concepts, revenge, beliefs, irrational fears, etc. with religion being just one silly thing that doesn't really have to be fought over. So without religion we still would fight over non-tangible things when our emotions or beliefs get the best of us. Granted fighting in the name of your religion is full-on insanity & hypocrisy. In Srebenica Bosnia the Serbs slaughtered 5,000 (maybe 2,000 I can't remember) muslims over a few day period. Trust me by then the place was blown to smithereens so there was little of value to fight over. So they only killed them for revenge or whatever, or just because they were muslim






> But mankind is the only species to fight over ideas, concepts, revenge, beliefs, irrational fears, etc. with religion being just one silly thing that doesn't really have to be fought over. So without religion we still would fight over non-tangible things when our emotions or beliefs get the best of us.



You sound like a man that has seen himself.
Whether I have is of no matter, but to me you sound like a man who has.

Have you seen the man who gives himself wholly to  his #1 _problem_? The man prioritized _to himself?_

Have you seen the man so prioritized think within himself..."If I can just solve this, just fix this...one thing"..."I see peace just beyond it"? 
If I take care of, handle, "do" what must be done to remove this major problem (that now relentlessly troubles me)...then peace...._must come_. I will see order...I will see rest, I will have...peace. 

Always: "life would be better..._if_..."

Leaky roof? Flat tire on the way to work? Bullets whizzing by from a machine gun nest? Plane engines on fire? No date for the prom? A toothache. An insult (or perceived one) online. Not quite enough likes...to my cat video.

What _moves_ man?

Always finding, always a something always ready to interpose itself in the now...and him _getting back to_ his "real life". And in the #1 problem is given the power to both be number #1...and also hide the _interminable_ line ready to step up and take its place.

Yes, you see far better than many. And some here.

The man forgets his toothache or late mortgage payment, the stain on the collar of his shirt heading to the business meeting...when engines one and two burst into flames.
And he may even forget his flat tire on the way to work, when the jack collapses pinning his hand in bloody pulp to the ground.

_Everything_ is on fire.

Fire I came to cast to the earth, and what will I if already it was kindled?

A man either sees this or he doesn't, a man either knows he is kindling, or he does not.

What moves man?

What burns him to motion?

What _is burning_ him?

Watch and see. Men can't help but make it plain.

Their fire is seen in their mouths and eyes. And it _must_ and does...always...come out.


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## bullethead (May 6, 2018)

The Sermonator:
Listen, and understand! That Sermonator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until you are dead!


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## Israel (May 6, 2018)

bullethead said:


> The Sermonator:
> Listen, and understand! That Sermonator is out there! It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop... ever, until you are dead!



You Bullet, are of far more value than many sparrows.

_How much_ poverty I am saved from in having met you.


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## bullethead (May 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> You Bullet, are of far more value than many sparrows.
> 
> _How much_ poverty I am saved from in having met you.



We have never met and yet you have more interaction with me than you do with a god.


----------



## Day trip (May 6, 2018)

bullethead said:


> We have never met and yet you have more interaction with me than you do with a god.



Until and unless Christ is experienced as a living relationship between people, the Gospel remains largely an abstraction. Until Christ is passed on personally through faithfulness and forgiveness, through concrete bonds of union, I doubt whether he is passed on by words, sermons, institutions, or ideas.
(today’s Daily Meditation from Fr. Rohr)


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## Israel (May 6, 2018)

bullethead said:


> We have never met and yet you have more interaction with me than you do with a god.



That's interesting. Is "met" confined, and meeting confined, to face to face? I ask this sincerely. I am not saying it is, or isn't.

And I know (and I believe you know...ain't this funny? Just because someone says a thing...doesn't make it necessarily so...after all I am pretty convinced this is a usual "round again we go" thing on here)

But people do say  "we met...on line"...and either this has _some_ merit...or it doesn't at all.

So if "true meeting" is confined to only a face to face introduction...yes...we have not yet met.


But I am willing. Or rather _not unwilling_. See, I think you already know me...in part. (Even if we have never "met") And I am not in any way thinking that a face to face would correct anything between us...I just think it could help make what may seem less than "met"...to...well...meet. I don't know if there's benefit (on its face) or a turning out to "another thing".

But, if you can trust this is _in me_ to a knowing (if only in part) I am inclined _to know_ this thing _is not true_ in my knower:

"Someone would get to like me if they really knew me"

...then I believe it's safe to say there's a basic agreement...in you believing me. (If in nothing more than that)

So, if you can believe that, I no less believe you when you once said "I sure would like to hunt hogs" (I believe I saw that...somewhere.

There's a huge Army fort about 45 min-hour from us down here, Fort Stewart. I have never hunted hogs...and have no compelling to do so...but (I have cleared this with my wife) if you ever wanted to come down and hunt over a long weekend (they issue whatever passes and permits are necessary) if it pleased you, you could stay and use this as your "base"...and see if you could harvest one...or even, a few. You could butcher and pack the meat (I even have a large cooler you'd be welcome to use...and keep) to transport anything in ice back home. 

My wife's sole caveat/restriction is that I am here. (She has wondered about some folks I have in the past invited...and going to work...."left her with") Nothing has ever happened...just a discomfort. (As I cannot help but imagine your wife could probably experience with seeming strangers about)

So, the best I could offer at this time would be a "long weekend"...where I could bookend the weekend with either one, or two days off.


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## bullethead (May 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> That's interesting. Is "met" confined, and meeting confined, to face to face? I ask this sincerely. I am not saying it is, or isn't.
> 
> And I know (and I believe you know...ain't this funny? Just because someone says a thing...doesn't make it necessarily so...after all I am pretty convinced this is a usual "round again we go" thing on here)
> 
> ...



We interact online.

I appreciate your invitation.


----------



## Israel (May 6, 2018)

bullethead said:


> We interact online.
> 
> I appreciate your invitation.



Fair enough description.

And you're welcome.


----------



## gemcgrew (May 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> Fair enough description.


With essentially the same meaning.


----------



## bullethead (May 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> Fair enough description.
> 
> And you're welcome.



Also, let me apologize. 
I don't know you well enough to speak towards you the way I have. I hope I can be more civil in the future.


----------



## Israel (May 6, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Also, let me apologize.
> I don't know you well enough to speak towards you the way I have. I hope I can be more civil in the future.



LOL...sometimes I fear you know me...too well.

So, I accept your apology with as deep a gratitude as these words can carry.

When our great granddaughter was about  two or three she learned to "do" things to our delight. And she would do them and do them and do them (whether it was some sort of dance...or exposition) and then she would stop...and everyone was to clap. When after the umpteenth time she would stop...and look around...she would find the one not "clapping" (or distracted) and point, almost with a scowl...and everyone knew exactly what that meant. And the "target" would inevitably start to clap and everyone would laugh...and then, and not till then _would she then_...smile broadly.

I am also as sincere as I can be when I say how much poverty I have been saved from in having interacted with you.


----------



## bullethead (May 6, 2018)

Israel said:


> LOL...sometimes I fear you know me...too well.
> 
> So, I accept your apology with as deep a gratitude as these words can carry.
> 
> ...



WhooDa thought that I'd  be a part of your salvation


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## welderguy (May 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> WhooDa thought that I'd  be a part of your salvation



Christ is the reason for it all. It's a sweet smell.

2Cor.2:15-16
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?


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## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Christ is the reason for it all. It's a sweet smell.
> 
> 2Cor.2:15-16
> 15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
> 16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?


I'm in a good mood, don't ruin it.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I'm in a good mood, don't ruin it.



I just cant figure out what these guys think they are accomplishing when they fling scripture at us.
Its like flinging the instructions for steak tartare at a vegetarian.
You know it doesn't mean squat to the vegetarian but you do it anyway


----------



## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I just cant figure out what these guys think they are accomplishing when they fling scripture at us.
> Its like flinging the instructions for steak tartare at a vegetarian.
> You know it doesn't mean squat to the vegetarian but you do it anyway



I just can't figure out what these guys think they are accomplishing when they tell us that they know more about our personal experience than we do.  It's like telling a kid that his tummy doesn't hurt.


----------



## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I just cant figure out what these guys think they are accomplishing when they fling scripture at us.
> Its like flinging the instructions for steak tartare at a vegetarian.
> You know it doesn't mean squat to the vegetarian but you do it anyway



It's like a shock gobble. Certain things set them off and they only know one way to reply.

They are like my father. He is convinced that a flu shot wards off every sickness or ailment.
Never mind that the flu shot producers have to guess what strain of the flu will be the most prevalent an entire year before it gets here,  he thinks the shot is a cure all.

Sore throat? Did you get your flu shot?
Stomach bug? Did you get your flu shot?
Pull a hammy? Did you get your flu shot?

Meanwhile, he gets his shot every year and gets just as many sniffles and runs and  ailments as everyone else. Mine lasts a week, his last a week, but he is convinced the shot works as unintended. And tells anyone who is within earshot in the doctors waiting room that they should get their shot....as he is there for the same symptoms. 
Its in his head just like it is in theirs and they HAVE to say it or it will drive them batty. Scripture tourettes.


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## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I just can't figure out what these guys think they are accomplishing when they tell us that they know more about our personal experience than we do.  It's like telling a kid that his tummy doesn't hurt.


See if you can figure out the difference between supplying FACTS about personal experiences as a possible alternative to what you think happened and flinging scripture that even you guys don't agree on as though they are facts.


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## welderguy (May 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I'm in a good mood, don't ruin it.



So...death unto death?

Still...a sweet smell.(just not to you)


----------



## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So...death unto death?
> 
> Still...a sweet smell.(just not to you)


Like I said....


> You know it doesn't mean squat to the vegetarian but you do it anyway


----------



## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> See if you can figure out the difference between supplying FACTS about personal experiences as a possible alternative to what you think happened and flinging scripture that even you guys don't agree on as though they are facts.



So personal experience is not fact.  I'll have to think on that for quite a while.


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## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> So personal experience is not fact.  I'll have to think on that for quite a while.


If you are going to think about what I said, think about what I actually said, not how you interpreted it -


> as a possible alternative to what you think happened


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## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> If you are going to think about what I said, think about what I actually said, not how you interpreted it -





> as a possible alternative to what you think happened


----------



## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

welderguy said:


> So...death unto death?
> 
> Still...a sweet smell.(just not to you)



Gobble Gobble


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## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


>


Yeah exactly.
This isn't rocket science. Its pretty standard that sometimes what we think happened is not what happened.
And sometimes it is. Hence my use of "possible alternative".


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## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Yeah exactly.
> This isn't rocket science. Its pretty standard that sometimes what we think happened is not what happened.
> And sometimes it is. Hence my use of "possible alternative".



You may recall that my "complaint", if you will, was:



> ...when they tell us that they know more about our personal experience than we do...


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## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> You may recall that my "complaint", if you will, was:





> when they tell us that they know more about our personal experience than we do...


My last comment on this ridiculous discussion -


> supplying FACTS about personal experiences as a possible alternative to what you think happened


How you translate that into me contending that we know more about your personal experience than you do is really beyond me.
I didn't say that.
I didn't imply that.
My words are right in front of you.
Turn those words into whatever you want to.


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## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> You may recall that my "complaint", if you will, was:



Why do we think people are crazy if they say that a random spirit  or a dog is speaking to them but we give them a pass when they say God speaks to them?


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## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Why do we think people are crazy if they say that a random spirit  or a dog is speaking to them but we give them a pass when they say God speaks to them?



It is my OPINION that the question is absurd, not to mention ill-defined.


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## welderguy (May 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Gobble Gobble



BOOM !!!!!


----------



## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Why do we think people are crazy if they say that a random spirit  or a dog is speaking to them but we give them a pass when they say God speaks to them?



I can't help but think back to when my and my wifes great grandparents/ granparents got up in years and would hold a sensible conversation with us one minute and would be talking to people who were not there the next. There was no doubt in my mind that they saw, heard, interacted with and felt others. 
Was it something more than just dreaming while fully awake? Idk but I doubt it. I can only relate it to the vivid dreams I have while sleeping.
I've flown by just wanting to. I've  battled the devil and demons and talked to god.  I've battled monsters and have been a monster. Ive had intense conversations with people that I felt like I knew forever yet have never knowingly seen before in real life. Ive done everything regular and ordinary and darn near everything extraordinary with all seeming just as real as the last. But I also know it wasnt real.

The mind is powerful. If it can do all that while at rest Im sure it can do it while awake.


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## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> My last comment on this ridiculous discussion -
> 
> How you translate that into me contending that we know more about your personal experience than you do is really beyond me.
> I didn't say that.
> ...



Have a gander at #156 and #159.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> Have a gander at #156 and #159.


Now you are mistranslating their posts too.
Bullet is giving examples of -


> Its pretty standard that sometimes what we think happened is not what happened.


And Ambush asked a question.
Neither are statements about knowing about your personal experiences better than you do.


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> It is my OPINION that the question is absurd, not to mention ill-defined.



Can you elaborate?  What parts are ill defined?


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> I can't help but think back to when my and my wifes great grandparents/ granparents got up in years and would hold a sensible conversation with us one minute and would be talking to people who were not there the next. There was no doubt in my mind that they saw, heard, interacted with and felt others.
> Was it something more than just dreaming while fully awake? Idk but I doubt it. I can only relate it to the vivid dreams I have while sleeping.
> I've flown by just wanting to. I've  battled the devil and demons and talked to god.  I've battled monsters and have been a monster. Ive had intense conversations with people that I felt like I knew forever yet have never knowingly seen before in real life. Ive done everything regular and ordinary and darn near everything extraordinary with all seeming just as real as the last. But I also know it wasn't real.
> 
> The mind is powerful. If it can do all that while at rest Im sure it can do it while awake.



When you used to believe that God was speaking to you, how did He sound?  I've heard people say that He spoke to them in the words of the Bible, as a small inkling, in a booming voice in their head (in modern English with neutral accent),  in the words of a book or in the conversations with other people.  Some people say that God speaks to them through nature.   I remember praying to God and I remember getting thoughts that were indistinguishable from my own.


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Now you are mistranslating their posts too.
> Bullet is giving examples of -
> 
> And Ambush asked a question.
> Neither are statements about knowing about your personal experiences better than you do.



True.  I was asking Hummer what he thought about those things in the general sense, not about his experiences specifically.


----------



## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Can you elaborate?  What parts are ill defined?



I'm not sure why you ask about that of which you surely are aware?

The question assumes comparability between the spirit of a random dog and God, thus seeking to establish a relationship which has not been established.


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I'm not sure why you ask about that of which you surely are aware?
> 
> The question assumes comparability between the spirit of a random dog and God, thus seeking to establish a relationship which has not been established.




Forgive my ignorance but it was an honest question.  

When people hear voices, from dogs, trees, the ether...it seems to me to be the same mechanism as when people hear God.  I said many times on here that I used to pray and I thought I heard God respond with ideas in my head, but I couldn't distinguish them from my own thoughts.  How do you know the difference?


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## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Now you are mistranslating their posts too.
> Bullet is giving examples of -



which draws obvious parallels between the believers experience and dementia and dreams topped off with the implication that non-believers can recognize the difference but believers can't.



> And Ambush asked a question.



See #165 



> Neither are statements about knowing about your personal experiences better than you do.


Should I just chalk it up to denial?


----------



## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> When you used to believe that God was speaking to you, how did He sound?  I've heard people say that He spoke to them in the words of the Bible, as a small inkling, in a booming voice in their head (in modern English with neutral accent),  in the words of a book or in the conversations with other people.  Some people say that God speaks to them through nature.   I remember praying to God and I remember getting thoughts that were indistinguishable from my own.



I can't say that I ever thought god was speaking to me outside of a dream. I know it a was dream because there was so much else going on that didn't make a bit of sense either.
The few times while dreaming that a "good"/"god" sense was present it probably was just that. A felt presence that wasn't identifiable by vision or voice and I or others in the dream did the talking. It was always a small snippet within a large dream that also didn't make any sense but seemed real.


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## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> I'm not sure why you ask about that of which you surely are aware?
> 
> The question assumes comparability between the spirit of a random dog and God, thus seeking to establish a relationship which has not been established.



People often say they were unbelievers until they heard the unmistakable voice of God.  He announced himself as such and they had never heard His voice like that before.  What's the difference if someone says they heard their dog talking to them with a voice in their head? 

What's the nature of the relationship that you mention that differentiates the validity of one communication over the other?


----------



## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> which draws obvious parallels between the believers experience and dementia and dreams topped off with the implication that non-believers can recognize the difference but believers can't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did you ever dream that you could fly or that you were back in high school?


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> which draws obvious parallels between the believers experience and dementia and dreams topped off with the implication that non-believers can recognize the difference but believers can't.



What differentiates the two?  How should a clinical psychologist interpret what's going on in their heads?  If a Pantheist said that they heard a tree give them advice would you accept that it happened as they say?  What if a Buddhist said they heard Ganesh? Is it as real as when a Christian hears the voice of God?


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

bullethead said:


> Did you ever dream that you could fly or that you were back in high school?



I haven't flown in a while.  I used to but I remember it was always a struggle; there was running and jumping and flailing.  I don't recall it ever being easy.  

I have had dreams where I return to high school, or some kind of "college/school".  I'm often lost.  I've interpreted those dreams as my concerns over my lack of ability to organize myself and my procrastination.


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## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

hummerpoo said:


> which draws obvious parallels between the believers experience and dementia and dreams topped off with the implication that non-believers can recognize the difference but believers can't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They are responding to you.
No need for me to explain for them.


----------



## bullethead (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I haven't flown in a while.  I used to but I remember it was always a struggle; there was running and jumping and flailing.  I don't recall it ever being easy.
> 
> I have had dreams where I return to high school, or some kind of "college/school".  I'm often lost.  I've interpreted those dreams as my concerns over my lack of ability to organize myself and my procrastination.



Im not even concerned with interpretation.

I'd love to know if hummerpoo ever dreamt of either of those things happening.


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## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

I wish I had some of these wacky dreams 
I assume I do dream but rarely ever remember them. Maybe 1 or 2 a year. And those 1 or 2 typically are that I'm in a life threatening situation but am basically "frozen" and cant do anything about it. Cant yell, cant move etc.
Always wake up at the point.


----------



## ky55 (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> I have had dreams where I return to high school, or some kind of "college/school".  I'm often lost.  I've interpreted those dreams as my concerns over my lack of ability to organize myself and my procrastination.



I had a dream one time where my dog spoke to me and told me he ate my homework.

*


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## hummerpoo (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> Forgive my ignorance but it was an honest question.
> 
> When people hear voices, from dogs, trees, the ether...it seems to me to be the same mechanism as when people hear God.  I said many times on here that I used to pray and I thought I heard God respond with ideas in my head, but I couldn't distinguish them from my own thoughts.  How do you know the difference?



Yes, I remember your inquiries and I believe that they have been and are sincere.

It's a personal view of how we communicate with each other (we discussed it once before).  As I see it "A" relates to "B", as best he can, what he has experienced; 
"B" then assigns what he understands "A" to be describing to his memory of his own experience that most closely resembles that which he believes "A" is describing.  That's the best we can do.  We can not give to another what we have experienced.

When you say "it seems to me to be the same mechanism", I have experienced similar things so I have some understanding, but it is not the same.  I have also had an experience which is completely different.  Between two people who have had similar experiences a degree of understanding is possible.  As the degree of similarity decreased, so does the degree of understanding.

A not very good example might be describing a full moon to one who has never seen.  When you say round they can compare the feel of a ball, but the 2-demensionality is lost.  There is a relationship between light and heat, so you have a path to work toward the glow of the moon, but it's not the same.

If I come up with a way describe "God's voice" to one who has not heard, you will be the first to know, however, if at that time you still do not believe that I have had the experience, I hold no illusion that success will be achieved.  It's not a me thing, it's an us thing.


----------



## 660griz (May 7, 2018)

True or False?
God has told people to kill children?
How can you tell if it is God or crazy? 
Do sane folks only hear good God stuff and only crazy folks hear bad God stuff?
Is the bible filled with crazy folks when killing is involved?
Should the below woman be set free cause she was doing God's will?

Dietz said that Laney, who is deeply religious, had a series of delusions on the day of the killings. He said she saw Aaron with a spear, then throwing a rock, then squeezing a frog and believed God was suggesting she should either stab, stone or strangle her children.

Laney at first resisted, but she felt she had to do what she perceived to be God’s will to prove her faith, he said.

“She told me she felt as if the Lord were saying ’If you keep rejecting, it’s going to keep getting worse,”’ Dietz said.


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## oldfella1962 (May 7, 2018)

ky55 said:


> I had a dream one time where my dog spoke to me and told me he ate my homework.
> 
> *



that makes sense! Eating your homework is often because they have a vitamin or mineral deficiency in their diet. Oh wait, maybe that's why they eat cat poop. 
Never mind!


----------



## oldfella1962 (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> When you used to believe that God was speaking to you, how did He sound?  I've heard people say that He spoke to them in the words of the Bible, as a small inkling, in a booming voice in their head (in modern English with neutral accent),  in the words of a book or in the conversations with other people.  Some people say that God speaks to them through nature.   I remember praying to God and I remember getting thoughts that were indistinguishable from my own.



god should speak in a Steven Hawking robotic voice!  Worst case like the intercom at the Atlanta airport.


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> I wish I had some of these wacky dreams
> I assume I do dream but rarely ever remember them. Maybe 1 or 2 a year. And those 1 or 2 typically are that I'm in a life threatening situation but am basically "frozen" and cant do anything about it. Cant yell, cant move etc.
> Always wake up at the point.



You better be REM sleeping.  It seems that without it there are some consequences.  This was fascinating to me:

JRE podcast #1109.  I couldn't embed the video because Joe Rogan has poopy mouth.

_"Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1501144316"_


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

<frame width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/6DGNZnfKYnU" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

oldfella1962 said:


> god should speak in a Steven Hawking robotic voice!  Worst case like the intercom at the Atlanta airport.



If it were in Aramaic and I were to remember and understand it that would be compelling.


----------



## ky55 (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> If it were in Aramaic and I were to remember and understand it that would be compelling.



All of the different understandings and interpretations of all the different denominations lead me to believe he sounds like Charlie Brown’s teacher at a McDonalds drive through. 


*


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

ky55 said:


> All of the different understandings and interpretations of all the different denominations lead me to believe he sounds like Charlie Brown’s teacher at a McDonalds drive through.
> 
> 
> *



The creative part of me would prefer to believe that that's more like how He would sound.  If I let my mind really wander I can imagine hearing His voice in the whine of a circular saw or in the spots on a trout.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> You better be REM sleeping.  It seems that without it there are some consequences.  This was fascinating to me:
> 
> JRE podcast #1109.  I couldn't embed the video because Joe Rogan has poopy mouth.
> 
> _"Matthew Walker is Professor of Neuroscience and Psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, and Founder and Director of the Center for Human Sleep Science. Check out his book "Why We Sleep: Unlocking the Power of Sleep and Dreams" on Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/dp/1501144316"_


Actually no.
Ive got to do the whole sleep apnea testing thing but have been putting it off. And yeah the Doc said it can definitely have a bad affect on my heart issues.


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Actually no.
> Ive got to do the whole sleep apnea testing thing but have been putting it off. And yeah the Doc said it can definitely have a bad affect on my heart issues.



Sleep apnea killed Reggie White.


----------



## ky55 (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> Actually no.
> Ive got to do the whole sleep apnea testing thing but have been putting it off. And yeah the Doc said it can definitely have a bad affect on my heart issues.



Get it done ASAP. 
You’ll wish you had done it sooner.


----------



## WaltL1 (May 7, 2018)

ky55 said:


> Get it done ASAP.
> You’ll wish you had done it sooner.


You sound like my Doc 
Its on my To Do list.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (May 7, 2018)

WaltL1 said:


> You sound like my Doc
> Its on my To Do list.


It will cost you over 1K and many doctor visits...... or you could just buy the stuff yourself for about $650 online, no doctor appointments


----------



## Day trip (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> The creative part of me would prefer to believe that that's more like how He would sound.  If I let my mind really wander I can imagine hearing His voice in the whine of a circular saw or in the spots on a trout.



Now you’re talking!


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

Day trip said:


> Now you’re talking!



It's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.


----------



## Day trip (May 7, 2018)

ambush80 said:


> It's a nice place to visit but I wouldn't want to live there.


----------



## ambush80 (May 7, 2018)

Day trip said:


>



Different strokes for different folks.


----------

