# Ephesians 6:10-12???



## hobbs27 (Jan 26, 2017)

Who are the rulers, powers,  and world forces? 

10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 26, 2017)

Roman Air Force?(heavenly places) 

I haven't a clue. I was just passing around some ideas in my head. Was Ephesians a guide to Ephesia leading up to the destruction of Jerusalem? Thus my joke about the Roman Air Force.
"spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places" caught my attention. 
Knowing that the enemy of the destruction of Jerusalem was the Romans but consigned by God.

Satan was defeated in 70AD, correct? Satan was some type of ruler of this world in a spiritual role before his destruction.

I would guess it's about some type of spiritual warfare before Satan was defeated.


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## welderguy (Jan 26, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Who are the rulers, powers,  and world forces?
> 
> 10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might. 11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.



Satan, his demons, and his ideologies.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 26, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Satan, his demons, and his ideologies.



What powers does Satan, his demons, rulers, powers, world forces of the darkness, and spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places have or ever had over elected and/or OSAS Christians?

Knowing that no one can snatch a single soul from God's hands, what reason would the full force of amour need to be adorned by whose name has always been recorded in the Book of Life?

I would think from a Reformed view, Satan was never one who could snatch a soul from God. Maybe he could make a saved person perform more sins than he did when he was dead. Maybe he could make one of the Elect overcome his ability to produce the fruits of the Holy Spirit.

I would assume that under the Reformed view that nothing ever changes, that Satan has or never had this power over the Elect.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

An interesting side note to this question.  Were they in the same age as us?  I don't think so,  but to the rulers.. 

Who are these "rulers" of "this age"? Paul clearly identifies them as those who in ignorance crucified the Lord of glory. Compare this with Peter's words in Acts. "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers" (Acts 3:17). See also v.14. Peter calls those who crucified the Lord of glory his Jewish brethren and their rulers. These are the Jews. The rulers were none other than the chief priests, elders, and sanhedrin council.


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## welderguy (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> An interesting side note to this question.  Were they in the same age as us?  I don't think so,  but to the rulers..
> 
> Who are these "rulers" of "this age"? Paul clearly identifies them as those who in ignorance crucified the Lord of glory. Compare this with Peter's words in Acts. "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers" (Acts 3:17). See also v.14. Peter calls those who crucified the Lord of glory his Jewish brethren and their rulers. These are the Jews. The rulers were none other than the chief priests, elders, and sanhedrin council.



No, they were not these because they are "flesh and blood". Peter tried to fight against these in the garden with his sword, but Jesus rebuked him, saying " all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

We have a sword, the sword of the Spirit, but it is not a carnal weapon.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> No, they were not these because they are "flesh and blood". Peter tried to fight against these in the garden with his sword, but Jesus rebuked him, saying " all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."
> 
> We have a sword, the sword of the Spirit, but it is not a carnal weapon.



Couldn't that mean it's a philosophical struggle and not a physical one?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

An interesting note about taking up the sword. 

The apostate Jew's that rejected Christ took up the sword against Rome.

The faithful Jew's fled the city and did not take up sword against Rome... They did not die by the sword.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm going to agree with Welder, the chief priests, elders, and sanhedrin were flesh and blood.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm going to agree with Welder, the chief priests, elders, and sanhedrin were flesh and blood.



They were Paul's flesh and blood.  His struggle was not physically them,  but their philosophy. Can you see in the text where this doesn't work? 

 I'm not excluding a spiritual realm here also,  but The Rulers in Ephesians 6 must have been these rejectors of Christ.  Those false accusers... Those diabolos'.


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## welderguy (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> They were Paul's flesh and blood.  His struggle was not physically them,  but their philosophy. Can you see in the text where this doesn't work?
> 
> I'm not excluding a spiritual realm here also,  but The Rulers in Ephesians 6 must have been these rejectors of Christ.  Those false accusers... Those diabolos'.



Look at what Jesus said to them here:

Luke 22:53
53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.

..."and the power of darkness"

It was their hour, but there was definitely something far more powerful driving them.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> Look at what Jesus said to them here:
> 
> Luke 22:53
> 53 When I was daily with you in the temple, ye stretched forth no hands against me: but this is your hour, and the power of darkness.
> ...




Now that is very interesting. And who is He speaking to?  It was their power of darkness. 

I'm starting to see more connections now.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

And there's this.
Collisions 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

The passage clearly references a Spiritual battle.
Why try to make it what it is not?
Carnal thinking is what is being warned against.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> The passage clearly references a Spiritual battle.
> Why try to make it what it is not?
> Carnal thinking is what is being warned against.



If you speak the Gospel to an unbeliever,  and the unbeliever comes back at you with denials. 

Isn't that a spiritual battle?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> If you speak the Gospel to an unbeliever,  and the unbeliever comes back at you with denials.
> 
> Isn't that a spiritual battle?



Which relates to this thread how?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Which relates to this thread how?



The battle was between the faithful believers,  and the non believing rulers.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> The battle was between the faithful believers,  and the non believing rulers.





> not against flesh and blood



"non believing rulers" are flesh and blood.

another one of Paul's one-time use compound words.
κοσμοκράτωρ
kosmokratōr
kos-mok-rat'-ore
From G2889 and G2902; a world ruler, an epithet of Satan: - ruler.

The point of the passage is "know your enemy" and equip accordingly.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

What type of a spiritual battle would a believer have?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> "non believing rulers" are flesh and blood.
> 
> another one of Paul's one-time use compound words.
> κοσμοκράτωρ
> ...



It's clear the enemy is not flesh and blood.. It's clear men are flesh and blood. 

But... Philosophy is not flesh and blood.  So as they (Christians)  prayed for strength to deliver the Gospel... It was not a battle of flesh and blood but a battle for spiritual truth.  Jesus is the Christ.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> What type of a spiritual battle would a believer have?



A war of words.  They were a small group at that time and the High priests and Pharisees were very strong.  

 There was a big battle to hold their faith while the old covenant Jews were going out to synagogues around the known world attacking Christianity,  not only physically as Saul/Paul did,  but philosophically also.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

Colosians 2: 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Anyone doubt the identity of the principalities and powers here?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm beginning to follow you. I can see where  an epithet of Satan: - ruler could be a person acting under Satan. Colosians 2: 14 points in that direction. 
Spiritual being philosophically.


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> It's clear the enemy is not flesh and blood.. It's clear men are flesh and blood.
> 
> But... Philosophy is not flesh and blood.  So as they (Christians)  prayed for strength to deliver the Gospel... It was not a battle of flesh and blood but a battle for spiritual truth.  Jesus is the Christ.



Philosophy is not spiritual.  Philosophy is not eternal.  Philosophy is of carnal man.

The point of the passage is to recognize that our enemy is spiritual/eternal.  Therefore, the enemy can not be defeated by weapons we have available of ourselves.  To be victorious we must forgo our weapons and rely on those given to us by God: truth, righteousness, gospel, faith, salvation, and Spirit; obtained by the means given to us by God, prayer.  (And for whom is this battle fought "the saints".)  To be victorious, we must enlist power not of ourselves.

**BTW, with what is given, we can also learn who the true victor is.**


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Philosophy is not spiritual.  Philosophy is not eternal.  Philosophy is of carnal man.
> 
> The point of the passage is to recognize that our enemy is spiritual/eternal.  Therefore, the enemy can not be defeated by weapons we have available of ourselves.  To be victorious we must forgo our weapons and rely on those given to us by God: truth, righteousness, gospel, faith, salvation, and Spirit; obtained by the means given to us by God, prayer.  (And for whom is this battle fought "the saints".)  To be victorious, we must enlist power not of ourselves.
> 
> **BTW, with what is given, we can also learn who the true victor is.**



I'm not seeing that they had an eternal enemy in this letter.  Can you point it out please?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not seeing that they had an eternal enemy in this letter.  Can you point it out please?



The eternality of Satan is not crucial to this discussion or the passage.


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## welderguy (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm not seeing that they had an eternal enemy in this letter.  Can you point it out please?



You've got me wondering if you believe in Satan, the fallen angel, and the fact that he is still alive and at work today.
If not,why?


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> You've got me wondering if you believe in Satan, the fallen angel, and the fact that he is still alive and at work today.
> If not,why?




I don't believe the devil in Ephesians 6 was a fallen angel.


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## welderguy (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't believe the devil in Ephesians 6 was a fallen angel.



That doesn't answer the question.


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## hobbs27 (Jan 27, 2017)

welderguy said:


> That doesn't answer the question.



The question as a whole will side track the topic. I'll discuss the use of the word Devil in Ephesians 6 only in this thread.


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## welderguy (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> The question as a whole will side track the topic. I'll discuss the use of the word Devil in Ephesians 6 only in this thread.



I see.
If it's that complex for you to answer, I kinda get the feeling what it is anyway.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

What power does Satan have over one of the Elect?

Ephesians 6:12
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places. 

A Christian has the dwelling of the Holy Spirit. Does this free us from the temptations of Satan or against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places?

Why or when did this become a struggle for a person born from above? I thought our struggle was still against the flesh. Even though we are born of the spirit, we still have flesh. We still must fight sin. 

Now all of a sudden Ephesians 6:12 is telling us that our struggle isn't against the flesh but Satan? I'm not sure that is what it means.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't believe the devil in Ephesians 6 was a fallen angel.



Could it be the fallen angels Satan took with him from Heaven?

It still doesn't explain why a OSAS Christian would be fighting with evil spirits and fallen angels. Maybe the evil spirits ceased to exist with the cessation of the gift to get rid of them.  Otherwise we'd still need exorcisms.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm trying to picture this spiritual war between God and his angels and Satan and his fallen angels. It's taking place in a spiritual world yet doing something to our physical world.

Are the battles for the souls of the lost? How can that be as God can call his elect and harden the others. Can Satan blind the elect to God's call? Is God operating in Satan's territory?

If the battles are being fought in the heavenly realm, how do they affect us in the physical realm? Does Satan have fallen angels acting as human leaders? 

It just appears to be too much of a Satan thing considering God is in total control. If Christianity is a spiritual thing, how does spiritual wars affect out physical being?  What power does Satan's fallen angels have on the predestined life and times of our physical world?

Are the battles really between two armies with ranks such as generals and privates? Organizations of God's military and Satan's sitting around  spiritual tables making strategic plans for the next battle. Trying to win lost souls? 
Maybe the terms are liken to armies and battles and are used to show our struggles with something else. I just can't picture actual battles with fallen angels on horses with actual swords. Especially in a spiritual word.

Seems more fit for a freewill belief than a reformed belief.

No one believes these are real battles with armies, officers, enlisted, swords, and horses do they? That demonic spirits are organized and structured?  Isn't it just language to help us understand something else?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I thought our struggle was still against the flesh.



A man struggling to free himself of the flesh.
A man struggling to live righteously.
A man struggling to save himself from darnation.
A man struggling to save another man from darnation.
A man struggling to pray rightly.
A man struggling to walk by faith.
A man struggling to love God with all his heart.

All passengers in the same sinking boat?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> A man struggling to free himself of the flesh.
> A man struggling to live righteously.
> A man struggling to save himself from darnation.
> A man struggling to save another man from darnation.
> ...



Then we must, as you suggest, need God to fight our spiritual battles for us. To free us from our battles with the flesh. This is something God does, correct? Is God our spiritual armor?

Ephesians 6:13-17: “Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

If Christ gave me deliverance, the Holy Spirit offers his dwelling to help me with the flesh, why do I need to fight spiritual battles with Satan?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then we must, as you suggest, need God to fight our spiritual battles for us. To free us from our battles with the flesh. This is something God does, correct? Is God our spiritual armor?
> 
> Ephesians 6:13-17: “Therefore put on the full armor of God, so that when the day of evil comes, you may be able to stand your ground, and after you have done everything, to stand. Stand firm then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.”



Two things quickly came to mind.
Why does God answer prayer?
Why does God allow us to serve Him?


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> A man struggling to free himself of the flesh.
> A man struggling to live righteously.
> A man struggling to save himself from darnation.
> A man struggling to save another man from darnation.
> ...



Wait, I might have read this wrong. A man struggling is sinking. A man who turns to deliverance through Jesus is free. He can't sink. He is wearing the armor of God.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Two things quickly came to mind.
> Why does God answer prayer?
> Why does God allow us to serve Him?



I'm not following you on the relation?


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## hummerpoo (Jan 27, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm not following you on the relation?



Romans 11:36


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 27, 2017)

hummerpoo said:


> Romans 11:36



Amen!


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