# Snake Avoidance Training



## GLS (Jan 11, 2012)

Sam H. in the whoa thread brought up using whoa command to keep a dog from a snake encounter. I know of at least 7 people who have had birddogs killed by snakes.  One friend had his Boykin killed in February three years ago by a diamondback.  In Texas and the west, there are pros who train dogs to avoid snakes.  There's a retired veterinarian, Dr. Bud Calderwood, in Alachua FL (just north of Gainesville)  that has been doing it for decades.  It's a simple process.  He has a monster diamondback and a mean cottonmouth that he utilizes.  He has taken steps to insure that they can't inject venom and tapes the mouths closed.  On a 25' lead, the dog wearing an Ecollar is allowed to approach the buzzing snake from downwind.  When the dog is within 10' and is obviously curious, he zaps them hard.  After calming the dog, the dog is once again allowed to walk towards the snake.  Of the four dogs we took to him this past October, not a one showed curiousity after being zapped the first time.  Quite the opposite, once the dogs re-sensed the snake, every dog ran away from the snake and stood behind the dog owner holding the leash.  Man's best friend put us between the snakes and them.   The process was repeated with the cottonmouth, but once the dogs sensed the snake, shocking was unnecessary; the dog put the owner between the snake and the dog.  The rattlesnake encounter was all it took to avoid the mocassin. We put 4 dogs through the process in less than 30 minutes total.  According to Bud, of the hundreds of dogs that he has trained, maybe 10  have needed re-training.   There are instances where  dogs he has trained  have been bitten and fall into two categories: 1) jumping across a log on top of an undetected snake 2) two trained dogs getting competitive and creeping towards a snake.  It's not a perfect process and won't protect in all instances, and I may never know if and  when it worked, but I don't feel like I wasted the $50 it cost for my Brit.  We plan on going down next year for  a refresher.  The cost of the refresher is not as much as the initial cost.


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## marcus3434 (Jan 11, 2012)

Did he mention if he thinks the association is with the site of the snake or the smell of the snake?  

I was assuming it was with the site of the snake but if he took the time to use a cottonmouth and a diamondback it makes me think its more smell now.


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## StevePickard (Jan 11, 2012)

I've been doing the same thing whenever I come across a freshly killed rattlesnake ever since Bullet was a pup.  I've experienced almost the same results.  I'm sure it would be much more effective if I had live snakes to work with but I'm not getting close enough to a live one to tape his mouth shut!!
The cost you're talking about Gil, is definitely worth the money!  
Steve


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## Supercracker (Jan 11, 2012)

Do you have contact info and dates? I REALLY want to get my dog snake trained. Most everywhere I run around has lots of Moccasins.


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## GLS (Jan 11, 2012)

marcus3434 said:


> Did he mention if he thinks the association is with the site of the snake or the smell of the snake?
> 
> I was assuming it was with the site of the snake but if he took the time to use a cottonmouth and a diamondback it makes me think its more smell now.



Bud's theory is that it is sight, sound and smell, but that any of three would cause avoidance.  With the rattler, the snake was buzzing and eventually visible.  I'm sure it could be smelled as well.  The cottonmouth wasn't buzzing, but it could be smelled and seen.


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## Sam H (Jan 11, 2012)

I too....Want the contact info for this training...DEFINATELY want it....for both my Britts

Please give us the info!

Thanks
Sam


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## GLS (Jan 11, 2012)

I just got off the phone with Bud and here are his contact numbers.  He does the  training at his house and doesn't have set dates.  It's by appointment.  He's in Massachusetts today and on  his way home:
Home phone 386 462-3229 Cell 352 317-1393
14095 NW 174 Ave., Alachua 32615 
gasvet(at)aol(dot)com
The effect of a snake bite is delayed for 15-30 minutes, and this explains why some  dogs get bit more than once.  They don't associate the misery of the effects with the actual bite of the snake.
A friend had a Jack Russell bitten so many times by copperheads that he nicknamed him "Zipperhead".  This didn't help the dog when a big diamondback killed him.  This same guy has lost two Brits to gators.  For the second dog in a family, Bud charges a little less.  Living in the low country of Carolina and Georgia can be hazardous for dogs.  Good luck. Gil
PS:  here's an old newpaper article about Bud (Hugh) Calderwood:
google "Calderwood snake"


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## Sam H (Jan 11, 2012)

Gil....Thanks for the info on Dr Calderwood...I just got off the phone with him and am going to call him towards the end of March after birdseason is over...He only likes to do it once the weather is warming and the snakes are more active..$50 first dog / $35 second dog,CHEAP insurance along with the vaccination is about all you can do...Thats $155-snake proof&vaccine, total(Both dogs) for the best insurance around!

Thanks again
Sam


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## GLS (Jan 11, 2012)

Sam,
We spoke with him about the vaccination.  He had concerns whether or not the Red Rock vaccine was effective against eastern rattlers as it is derived from the western variety.  Despite assurances over the years that it would, Red Rock has not developed a vaccine for eastern diamondback or timber rattlers.  I don't know the current state of opinion, but this has been a controversial subject in the vet community.  In the end, it's up to us, I suppose, and we do what we each think best for our four-legged family members.  Gil


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## BirdNut (Jan 11, 2012)

This is good information.  I have personally seen a dog bit and killed by a big rattler in Mexico and its an agonizing death.  Less than 12 hours and nothing could be done for the dog.  If you catch it in time, I think steroids are an option, but that's a big IF, and probably more expensive than this training.


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## GLS (Jan 11, 2012)

When I went in October, a friend went with me.  He took his setter and Boykin; I took my Brit and a friend's Brit.  His first Boykin was killed 3 years ago this February on a balmy day by snakebite.  From bite to death was 15 minutes. The poor dog died in his arms and there was nothing he could do. The landowner found a huge diamondback the next day in the same area on a fence row .  The snake is no longer with us.  He no longer bird hunts in the afternoon if temps get above 50 degrees.  I understand his reasoning.


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## Sam H (Jan 11, 2012)

GLS said:


> Sam,
> We spoke with him about the vaccination.  He had concerns whether or not the Red Rock vaccine was effective against eastern rattlers as it is derived from the western variety.  Despite assurances over the years that it would, Red Rock has not developed a vaccine for eastern diamondback or timber rattlers.  I don't know the current state of opinion, but this has been a controversial subject in the vet community.  In the end, it's up to us, I suppose, and we do what we each think best for our four-legged family members.  Gil




Gil...My vet , who is an avid quail hunter/britt man and good friend of mine ,told me like this about the vaccine.As the Red Rock vaccine IS for the western diamondback...IS NOT for the eastern diamondback or timber rattlers...It's all we've got...the only thing it would probably do with the "local ratterlers" is "hopefully" buy some time until you can get to a vet....give the dog benadryl and RACE to the vet,while doing alot of praying...its all we've got and better than nothing , so along with the snake-proofing..I have done all I know to do for my "hunting buddies"...NOTHING is to good for thier wellfare and safety!!Sam


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## GLS (Jan 11, 2012)

Sam,
Another buddy had his setter bitten by a rattler and he drove 100 mph to the vet and got there within 30 minutes.   Treatment started immediately but the dog died overnight.  If the dog is hit in the body that is much  worse than on the head or leg.  Thanks for the tip on Benadryl.  Over the holidays, I hunted about 100 miles from home. I went to the internet and googled for vets in the area and printed all numbers and addresses of all nearby vets and kept it in the truck.  If anything bad happened to Abby I would not be welcome home. I have been warned.  BTW, Dothan is about as far away from Alachua as it is for me.  It's an easy day trip back and forth. Gil


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## coveyrise90 (Jan 11, 2012)

I took Rusty to Dr. Calderwood 2 years ago. After a couple of pops from the collar, he wanted nothing to do that snake. I have never seen him pull harder to get to the truck! But, I'd like to do a refresher course. Plus, I need to take my new pup, Copper. When its hot, I don't hunt... that way I dont have to worry about Mr. Noshoulders. My dogs aren't just hunting companions... they're members of the family, and NO quail hunt is worth their lives. 

Sam, let me know when you go. I'll join you. Brian and Walt might be interested too.

Adam


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## GLS (Jan 12, 2012)

coveyrise90 said:


> I took Rusty to Dr. Calderwood 2 years ago. After a couple of pops from the collar, he wanted nothing to do that snake. I have never seen him pull harder to get to the truck!
> Adam



Adam,
The setting Bud used on the collar was so hot that when he hit the button, the power dimmed in the tri-county area.
He had hooked the leash to Abby's tag keeper rather than the collar ring.  When she hit the end of the lead, the wire ring straightened out and she kept running.  She came  back trembling, tail tucked to her chin, but calmed down fast.  Once in the truck kennel, she didn't want to come back out.  I don't think she will forget that snake.  The diamondback he used was over 5' long and as big around as a grapefruit.
The owners of the other Brit I took to Alachua have a 13 year-old English Cocker that has been bitten twice by snakes.  The last was a rattler that was shot and had 3 quail inside of it which had probably absorbed a lot of venom rendering the strike on the dog less potent.
I feel the same way as you about hunting  on warm winter days.  I've known folks who have had birddogs for decades without snake problems, but also know just as many folks that have lost dogs to snakes. One man was a vet who spent over $2000 his out of pocket costs in trying to save his own dog.  The dog still died from the bite.  I can't imagine losing a dog to snake.  Gil


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## Sam H (Jan 12, 2012)

GLS said:


> Adam,
> The setting Bud used on the collar was so hot that when he hit the button, the power dimmed in the tri-county area.
> He had hooked the leash to Abby's tag keeper rather than the collar ring.  When she hit the end of the lead, the wire ring straightened out and she kept running.  She came  back trembling, tail tucked to her chin, but calmed down fast.  Once in the truck kennel, she didn't want to come back out.  I don't think she will forget that snake.  The diamondback he used was over 5' long and as big around as a grapefruit.
> The owners of the other Brit I took to Alachua have a 13 year-old English Cocker that has been bitten twice by snakes.  The last was a rattler that was shot and had 3 quail inside of it which had probably absorbed a lot of venom rendering the strike on the dog less potent.
> I feel the same was as you about hunting  on warm winter days.  I've known folks who have had birddogs for decades without snake problems, but also know just as many folks that have lost dogs to snakes. One man was a vet who spent over $2000 his out of pocket costs in trying to save his own dog.  The dog still died from the bite.  I can't imagine losing a dog to snake.  Gil





AND....Its stories like this , is a good example of why I will do EVERYTHING at my disposal to protect my pups...and like Adam said...these are also "family members" to me...and I will protect my family at all cost!


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## asc (Jan 14, 2012)

Took my ep female to Bud last year, he used an eastern and a pygmy rattler. Although she trembles and hides when I rattle an old snake tail she still kills other snakes including two coral snakes this past summer.
Got a new pup and will be going again when the weather warms up. Maybe a refresher is needed.
I really want my dogs to tiptoe around a garden hose.


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## GLS (Jan 15, 2012)

Fortunately for your EP coral snakes don't strike like rattlers. Gil


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## Timberdoodle (Jan 17, 2012)

This is one of the better high-quality threads I have seen in awhile (said with all due respect).


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## Supercracker (Jan 17, 2012)

So, when are we all doing this?


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## Supercracker (Jan 17, 2012)

And are we going to be using wild snakes or Shake and Bake snakes?  













lol, couldn't help it.


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## Setter Jax (Jan 17, 2012)

Supercracker said:


> And are we going to be using wild snakes or Shake and Bake snakes?
> 
> lol, couldn't help it.



SJ


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## Jim P (Jan 17, 2012)

Good one SC. I would like to go maybe get with the Dr. and a bunch of us guy's could go together.


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## Supercracker (Jan 17, 2012)

that's what I was thinking


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## asc (Jan 18, 2012)

Dr. Caulderwood lives in Alachla Fl. (bout 45 minutes N of Gainsville) he told me 2yrs back that he likes the weather warm so the snakes aren't slow(can't spell legerthic). I'd like to have my female do a refresher and I have a one year old male that needs the training. If any of y'all schedule a session with him in Fl. let me know, I'm in.
acfisheries1@yahoo.com
Thanks, Art


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## GLS (Jan 24, 2012)

The Jan/Feb 2012 Point Dog Journal has an article regarding snake avoidance training and it supports Dr. Calderwood's views on training.  It also discusses both sides of the Red Rock vaccine effectiveness debate.


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