# Question



## Asath (Oct 3, 2012)

The superstitious folks all agree on a few things.  

They will all agree that their God is Good.  They all agree that their God rewards the Good people, by taking them to God’s Heaven, regardless of what their concept of that Heaven might be.  They might not all agree on what, exactly, that Heaven might be, but they all agree on a Heavenly reward for themselves.  It will be blissful and eternal.

Conversely, they all agree that there is an anti-God – the Devil.  And they all agree that the Devil is Evil.  Evil is the force they resist, and seek to conquer.   God embodies the Good, and the Devil embodies Evil. 

People who are Good are rewarded, and go to Heaven.  People who are Evil, according to each definition of same, are punished by being sent to Hades, there to suffer eternal torment at the hands of the Devil.  Are we in agreement on this so far?

That is the whole thing in a nutshell, is it not?

So here’s the question:  If the Devil, who presides over Hades, is tasked with eternally PUNISHING the wrong-doers, doesn’t that actually make him one of the Good guys?

Wouldn’t Evil reward Evil, rather than punish it?  

Just asking.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 3, 2012)

lol     never heard that the devil would be tasked with the punishing....especially since he, too, will be punished with all the 'wrongdoers'.   

of course, my viewpoint is Bible-based.  There may be other religions or views that have a more good/heaven evil/hades concept.

Bandy


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## outdooraddict (Oct 3, 2012)

Can't actually agree. First, many religions don't believe in heaven or Hades such as many of the Eastern religions, even some sects of Judaism. Greek and Roman gods certainly weren't considered good for the most part. 

Second, Christianity would teach that all are "wrongdoers" and that there is a choice regarding "redemption" from that.

Third, by labeling those who don't agree with you as superstitious, you miss out on useful and rational discussions and instead resort to name calling and ad hominem fallacies.


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## Huntinfool (Oct 3, 2012)

> Third, by labeling those who don't agree with you as superstitious, you miss out on useful and rational discussions and instead resort to name calling and ad hominem fallacies.



If it weren't for this...I might have tried to answer.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> If it weren't for this...I might have tried to answer.



Yeah, but this forum has been pretty dead, so I'm gonna go for it anyway.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2012)

Asath said:


> So here’s the question:  If the Devil, who presides over Hades, is tasked with eternally PUNISHING the wrong-doers, doesn’t that actually make him one of the Good guys?



Satan does not preside over Hades.  It was prepared _for_ him and his angels, and that is where he will spend eternity.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Satan does not preside over Hades.  It was prepared _for_ him and his angels, and that is where he will spend eternity.



But his powers can leave Hades?


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2012)

bullethead said:


> But his powers can leave Hades?



Who said he's in Hades?  He's the prince of this world.  Every Rolling Stone fan understands that:


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Who said he's in Hades?  He's the prince of this world.  Every Rolling Stone fan understands that:





centerpin fan said:


> Satan does not preside over Hades.  It was prepared _for_ him and his angels, and that is where he will spend eternity.




I'm pretty sure it was you...


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I'm pretty sure it was you...



No, I said he will spend eternity there.  The final judgement has not happened yet.


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## bullethead (Oct 3, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> No, I said he will spend eternity there.  The final judgement has not happened yet.



OHHHH so he is allowed to roam free instilling his will wherever and whenever he feels like it until an undetermined time of judgement comes, or already came and went and nothing happened. 
God CAN zap Satan into his fiery prison for all eternity whenever he wants, he just doesn't want to till the time is right. Gotcha.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 3, 2012)

bullethead said:


> OHHHH so he is allowed to roam free instilling his will wherever and whenever he feels like it until an undetermined time of judgement comes, or already came and went and nothing happened.
> God CAN zap Satan into his fiery prison for all eternity whenever he wants, he just doesn't want to till the time is right. Gotcha.



_Not_ instilling his will.  See John 4:1-11.

Despite the sarcasm, you're basically correct on the rest.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 3, 2012)

Asath said:


> The superstitious folks all agree on a few things.
> 
> They will all agree that their God is Good.  They all agree that their God rewards the Good people, by taking them to God’s Heaven, regardless of what their concept of that Heaven might be.  They might not all agree on what, exactly, that Heaven might be, but they all agree on a Heavenly reward for themselves.  It will be blissful and eternal.
> 
> ...



This is incorrect on a lot of levels, according to my beliefs. 

God does not reward those that are good. He forgives those that are willing to repent.

We can't conquer evil without God; I don't seek to do it on my own.

The Devil doesn't punish, separation from God is the bad part. Is it punishment? No, I think it is inevitable truth that sin separates us from God. Without repentance, we cannot be near Him (we are all guilty of some sin or the other).

Your final question is pointless given your misunderstanding of the Christian faith.

All this time, I thought you had a pretty good idea of what the God of the Bible was all about, and you just didn't believe. Despite all your studying, come to find out, you don't have any idea about the God of the Bible.

I hope I shed some light on it for you.


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## stringmusic (Oct 4, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> This is incorrect on a lot of levels, according to my beliefs.
> 
> God does not reward those that are good. He forgives those that are willing to repent.
> 
> ...



X2! Can't be said any better than that.


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## ross the deer slayer (Oct 4, 2012)

I would think the devil hates everyone and everything because he got kicked out of Heaven, so he's bitter and wants revenge on people so he punishes those in he11, and temts people, hoping to punish them eternally. Ya that sounds pretty evil


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## ross the deer slayer (Oct 4, 2012)

bullethead said:


> OHHHH so he is allowed to roam free instilling his will wherever and whenever he feels like it until an undetermined time of judgement comes, or already came and went and nothing happened.
> God CAN zap Satan into his fiery prison for all eternit y whenever he wants, he just doesn't want to till the time is right. Gotcha.



I picked out a time when I wanna season, chop up and cook my deer backstraps. I can eat the backstrap at any time, but I think it will be ideal for my body at about 1800 hours Eastern Standard Time.
you got me homie?


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> I picked out a time when I wanna season, chop up and cook my deer backstraps. I can eat the backstrap at any time, but I think it will be ideal for my body at about 1800 hours Eastern Standard Time.
> you got me homie?



Clearly eating backstraps and wiping out evil are on the same level. How many times have you waited 6000+ years to eat those 'straps after you've seasoned them???

If you knew a vicious dog was roaming unchained around your backyard would you allow your child to play there? Would you sit back and just be there to comfort your child after the attack or would you do something about the problem before it happens?

This homie got ya alright.


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## Asath (Oct 4, 2012)

“God does not reward those that are good. He forgives those that are willing to repent.”

See, this is where I wish you folks (believers) would get your acts together, and quit presenting so very many different versions of your ‘faith’ that it is impossible to sort them all out.  So if I was to ‘repent,’ not knowing at all what exactly I’m ‘repenting’ of, but just taking your word that I must have done SOMETHING (such as not believing you, perhaps) that you find somehow ‘sinful,’ your position is that I’ll be ‘forgiven’  That is nice.  What do I get for that?

The majority position says that I get Heaven.  The word itself needs little further delineation.  Heaven means good stuff, for eternity.  

“The Devil doesn't punish, separation from God is the bad part.”  Again, in an environment that is awash in tent-revival rhetoric about the lake-of-fire and the like that awaits unrepentant, unsaved souls, according only to a Christian definition of same,  perhaps you might explain this rather startling distinction and digression from that prescribed outcome to your fellow believers – it seems that the bulk of them are quite eager to see me tortured for all eternity.  In Hades.  Another word that needs little further definition.  That means bad stuff, also for eternity.

So, my ‘misunderstanding of the Christian Faith’ is nothing of the sort – if your devil is not evil, but merely ‘fallen,’ then you misunderstand your own ‘faith’ – and if your devil does not preside over the Hades of your myth and legend, punishing the ‘unsaved’ in unimaginably terrible ways for all of eternity, then you certainly missed most of the lesson plan put forward by your clergy.  This stark contrast, between an eternity of reward or an eternity of punishment is a foundation of your ‘Faith.’

So, regardless of HOW you wish to re-define this ‘punishment,’ and sugar-coat it to try to get folks back in the pews, that punishment STILL takes the form of ending up in the BAD PLACE – which is presided over by your DEVIL.  The Evil dude.  You can’t just change a few thousand years of violently enforced mythology now that you find it a bit embarrassing to realize that you’re a member of this club.  Unfortunately, if you buy into a set of myths you buy the entire history of them, and don’t get to refine them into new ones, short of starting a whole new religion which starts with the outright rejection of this history and the writing of whole new myths.

Fence-sitting, in this regard, is not an option.  You can’t have parts of it, but not others.

My point is that by your own logic portraying this Devil as Evil, and as the Punisher and the Warden of Hades, seems a bit off.  If the prison guards were themselves criminals, they would reward the inmates, and throw open the gates, would they not?

The Good would reward the Good.  Okay.  That sort of Disney meets Pollyanna thing has a certain Fairy-tale appeal.  But Evil would PUNISH Evil, on the converse?  Nah.  Won’t sell.


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## bullethead (Oct 4, 2012)

Asath said:


> “God does not reward those that are good. He forgives those that are willing to repent.”
> 
> See, this is where I wish you folks (believers) would get your acts together, and quit presenting so very many different versions of your ‘faith’ that it is impossible to sort them all out.  So if I was to ‘repent,’ not knowing at all what exactly I’m ‘repenting’ of, but just taking your word that I must have done SOMETHING (such as not believing you, perhaps) that you find somehow ‘sinful,’ your position is that I’ll be ‘forgiven’  That is nice.  What do I get for that?
> 
> ...



Exactly! Why else would the Devil use Demons to do his dirty work instead of locking them up for eternity for being soooo bad?


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## ross the deer slayer (Oct 5, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Clearly eating backstraps and wiping out evil are on the same level. How many times have you waited 6000+ years to eat those 'straps after you've seasoned them???
> 
> If you knew a vicious dog was roaming unchained around your backyard would you allow your child to play there? Would you sit back and just be there to comfort your child after the attack or would you do something about the problem before it happens?
> 
> This homie got ya alright.



That dog could kill a child though, satan can't kill.  The dog can also directly inflict pain/physically injure, satan can only do this inderectly, mentally. He convinces the person to do something, that results in another thing and another....  that ends up backfiring and. resulting in "consequences". I understand what you're saying, I don't know God's reasons or intentions for everything He does, this is just what I think or can compare it to.


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2012)

ross the deer slayer said:


> That dog could kill a child though, satan can't kill.  The dog can also directly inflict pain/physically injure, satan can only do this inderectly, mentally. He convinces the person to do something, that results in another thing and another....  that ends up backfiring and. resulting in "consequences". I understand what you're saying, I don't know God's reasons or intentions for everything He does, this is just what I think or can compare it to.



Forget the dog. Lets say a hot stove, a bicycle accident, splinter, broken glass......as hard as it is WE as parents try our best to prevent as much as we can for our children, loved ones and people we don't even know, and we have no knowledge of what is going to happen ahead of time. You and I both know that if we could foresee any hazards we would take actions to make sure they never harmed our children. Being that we are all God's children the logic just does not add up. We make excuses like, " well god is above logic and reason" "his plan is this..." " we can't understand God's will" and on and on but they are just excuses to give the a free pass to the most powerful, loving and compassionate being that sends his only Son to save us and yet allows THE greatest force of evil to not only exist, but run rampant since the beginning of time. And do NOTHING about it. Sorry, I don't make excuses for the things that should be done and are not and then give praise for the coin flip odds of things that will happen anyway.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 5, 2012)

Satan is not the ruler of he!! nor does he get to punish anyone. He!! was made for Satan and his follower's punishment. Satan's kingdom is the Earth which is where he is now, not in He!!. The idea that Satan rules He!! and wears a red suit with horns is Hollywood stuff.


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## bullethead (Oct 5, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> Satan is not the ruler of he!! nor does he get to punish anyone. He!! was made for Satan and his follower's punishment. Satan's kingdom is the Earth which is where he is now, not in He!!. The idea that Satan rules He!! and wears a red suit with horns is Hollywood stuff.



Satan's Kingdom just happens to be the same place that God created for his children. Satan rules the world God created. Satan torments God's creations. God created Satan. Just another one of those plans that we can't understand.


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## Asath (Oct 6, 2012)

It gets a little confusing when you folks keep revising things and coming up with new and endlessly novel rationalizations.  So now the Devil does not have Hades as His dominion, but actually has the Earth?  C’mon.

Read your own theology for crying out loud. 

The inescapable conclusion is that the only folks who do not understand Christianity are the Christians themselves.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 6, 2012)

Jesus Christ said: "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." 

Satan has no power over anyone who is willing to accept the power to defeat Satan.  The world is fallen, not because of Satan, but because of Adam and Eve.
The only evil in me is the evil that I allow within.
God has given me the ability to refuse Satan.  Satan is a toothless lion.  All he is today is a deceiver.  That's all the power he has.

Satan rules nothing except that which refuses God.
It is God who set the sun and it is God who brought the clouds.
Satan still wishes Jesus would have fallen for Satan's temptations.

Satan is a punk and a liar.


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## Ronnie T (Oct 6, 2012)

Asath said:


> The superstitious folks all agree on a few things.
> 
> They will all agree that their God is Good.  They all agree that their God rewards the Good people, by taking them to God’s Heaven, regardless of what their concept of that Heaven might be.  They might not all agree on what, exactly, that Heaven might be, but they all agree on a Heavenly reward for themselves.  It will be blissful and eternal.
> 
> ...



As an Atheist, where exactly do you fit into this?  Are you for God's goodness or for Satan's evilness?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2012)

Asath said:


> “God does not reward those that are good. He forgives those that are willing to repent.”
> 
> See, this is where I wish you folks (believers) would get your acts together, and quit presenting so very many different versions of your ‘faith’ that it is impossible to sort them all out.  So if I was to ‘repent,’ not knowing at all what exactly I’m ‘repenting’ of, but just taking your word that I must have done SOMETHING (such as not believing you, perhaps) that you find somehow ‘sinful,’ your position is that I’ll be ‘forgiven’  That is nice.  What do I get for that?
> 
> ...



I ain't selling anything Asath. I am not trying to get you back into a pew, and I do not want you to burn (for eternity) either.

I don't speak for anyone but myself. What I posted were MY beliefs.

I understand the historic violence that has taken place in the name of Christ. I cannot judge that, but if I had to, I would say the perpetrators were mislead, wrong, insane.

The Devil is not the punisher. He does not have the authority to do that. The Devil presides over nothing. The punishment is separation from God.

If you are forgiven by God for your sins, your sins are atoned for by His sacrifice and triumph. You are then free of sin, and can reside in His presence for eternity instead of the hot place. That is what YOU get out of it.

Sin separates us from God. That is the bad part.

Separation from God is the bad part.

You focus too much on religion, and you tube videos and tent-revival rhetoric. Many people will lie to you or mislead you for various reasons. Churches of every religion will do that.

God will not do that.

I reiterate that these are MY views. I speak for no man but myself.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2012)

Asath said:


> It gets a little confusing when you folks keep revising things and coming up with new and endlessly novel rationalizations.  So now the Devil does not have Hades as His dominion, but actually has the Earth?  C’mon.
> 
> Read your own theology for crying out loud.
> 
> The inescapable conclusion is that the only folks who do not understand Christianity are the Christians themselves.



I have read it many times.

You may not be able to escape it, but that doesn't mean you are right.

I don't think you get Christianity at all.

If I had to put it in a nutshell for you, it would be this:

1. God is the creator
2. He gave us the option to know the good the bad the ugly and the righteous.
3. We chose the bad and the ugly.
4. He mercifully and lovingly gave us the chance to think about our decision and choose again (through the sacrifice of the life of His son, and that son's resurrection).
5. The re-choice is up to you.

All the garbage that men have perpetrated throughout time in His name, or in defiance of His name is really quite meaningless.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> As an Atheist, where exactly do you fit into this?  Are you for God's goodness or for Satan's evilness?



I don't think he believes in either.

Is that correct Asath?


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## ted_BSR (Oct 6, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Satan's Kingdom just happens to be the same place that God created for his children. Satan rules the world God created. Satan torments God's creations. God created Satan. Just another one of those plans that we can't understand.



Satan rules nothing.


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## Asath (Oct 6, 2012)

You are quite right.  I do not believe in either God or Satan.  They are both human constructs, fictional characters created by men to control other men.  Odd, and unfortunate, but true.

So my jape is aimed at those who stubbornly hold the party line, as above.  Examine the thought, as it has been spoon-fed to children and is still done, and try not to wonder why the many of them are abandoning the pews.  

The rank-and-file explanation, thundered at young ears, will only cause an examination of the logic – forget the facts here, since religions have none – but the logic itself doesn’t add up – and I didn’t originate this thread.

A seven-year-old girl – the daughter of an overly zealous neighbor – asked me this question at a recent barbeque.  Can you imagine?  Full belly, beer-in-hand, next team up for the horse-shoe pit, and this little girl comes up, out of nowhere, and asks me, “If the Devil is bad, like they say, then how come he isn’t giving all the bad people that get sent down there Popsicles?  Isn’t that where he wanted them to be, with him?”

Aside from having huge hopes for that little girl, who can see through all of the Sunday School crap she is being forced to endure, even at her age, I thought that it would be a fair question to ask here.  

Thus far, nobody has an answer for her.  

Why would this fictional devil, within the context of a fictional eternal ‘struggle’ between ‘good’ and ‘evil,’ be at all interested in hosting a ‘bad’ place for the ‘bad’ people that it is maintained he aims to recruit?

If the Devil cruises the Planet, trying to convert folks away from the Good and convert them to the Dark Side, then why wouldn’t he construct Hades as a similar reward for those who chose to join him?  And if he is simply trying to seduce them into evil, then what incentive would an eternity of punishment be in that regard?  Seems self evident.

At least to a quite thoughtful little girl . . .


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## fish hawk (Oct 6, 2012)

Asath said:


> A seven-year-old girl – the daughter of an overly zealous neighbor – asked me this question at a recent barbeque.  Can you imagine?  Full belly, beer-in-hand, next team up for the horse-shoe pit, and this little girl comes up, out of nowhere, and asks me, “If the Devil is bad, like they say, then how come he isn’t giving all the bad people that get sent down there Popsicles?  Isn’t that where he wanted them to be, with him?”


I dont believe this for one split second.....this is something you fabricated in your own mind because you think it sounds good or bad!!!Why would an overzealous neighbor invite an atheist to there barbeque?
Also,Christians tend to not let there children interact closely with atheist,just as an atheist wouldn't want there children interacting closely with a christian.I'll give you this though,you have a good imagination!!!


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> I dont believe this for one split second.....this is something you fabricated in your own mind because you think it sounds good or bad!!!


Now you know how atheists feel about religion



fish hawk said:


> Why would an overzealous neighbor invite an atheist to there barbeque?


Satan MADE him do it.



fish hawk said:


> Also,Christians tend to not let there children interact closely with atheist,just as an atheist wouldn't want there children interacting closely with a christian.


Is that according to extensive research you have done or did those FACTS hit you as you sipped your coffee this morning? Seriously, in what world do you live in where everyone waves their religious affiliation or anti-affiliation flag. Other than blurt out what sounds right to you where do you get your statistics from?



fish hawk said:


> I'll give you this though,you have a good imagination!!!


He's got nothing on you.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 6, 2012)

Asath said:


> The inescapable conclusion is that the only folks who do not understand Christianity are the Christians themselves.



Please.


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## ambush80 (Oct 6, 2012)

If Satan were really evil he would simply enjoy torturing.  He probably kicks his demons as he sends them out to make mischief.  Maybe he even mutilates himself.  If I were a primitive sitting around a campfire I could come up with some pretty wicked things that this "Satan" would do as well as what super powers his adversary might wield.  Lightning hammer perhaps?


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 6, 2012)

I suspect you don't want an honest answer, but here goes for the little girl . 
The devil didn't create he11. God did. The devil has no power to create. See Genesis 1. "In the beginning God..."

The devil does not run he11. He is on the earth. See Job 1:7. "And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
Also see 1 Peter 5:8 "Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:" 
This also provides an answer to the question of why he would "recruit" others to "his" side. Devouring people who choose his way is the delight of the devil. 

The devil will not be enjoying his stay in eternal - dangnation, nor will anyone else. See Revelation 20:2. 10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

People who are ignorant of the Bible often rely on "traditional" or "folklore" knowledge of the Christian faith to draw assumptions. Sadly, most Christians don't know enough Word to rebut what is said.


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## fish hawk (Oct 6, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Is that according to extensive research you have done or did those FACTS hit you as you sipped your coffee this morning? Seriously, in what world do you live in where everyone waves their religious affiliation or anti-affiliation flag. Other than blurt out what sounds right to you where do you get your statistics from?


No man you cant find it in a book or on the internet.It's called common sense and you either have it or you dont!!!Whats the difference between a Christian and an  *"Overzealous Christian"* ? Do overzealous Christians rub elbows with atheist???Do you hang with overzealous Christians???Are overzealous Christians a staple at your BBQ's???Come on man what world do *YOU* live in.


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> No man you cant find it in a book or on the internet.It's called common sense and you either have it or you dont!!!Whats the difference between a Christian and an  *"Overzealous Christian"* ? Do overzealous Christians rub elbows with atheist???Do you hang with overzealous Christians???Are overzealous Christians a staple at your BBQ's???Come on man what world do *YOU* live in.



Common sense does not equal making personal assumptions.

My guess would be an "overzealous Christian" is someone who preaches about it constantly, constantly has to include some sort of praise to God for each and everything they do,see or say, and wears their religion on their sleeve(along with the Jesus fish on their bumper and rosary beads on their rear view mirror, and bobble head Jesus/angel stuck to their dash.)  As compared to your average Christian or Atheist who quietly goes about their business without drawing attention to who or what they believe in.

I don't make it a point to"hang" with overzealous Christians( or anyone that is overzealous with anything), tho my M-I-L would be the poster child, and  MANY times while at parties/gatherings/social events/back yard BBQ's I have met overzealous (insert RELIGION or Personality here)people because in my neighborhood no one has to fill out a questionnaire to be social and spend time with neighbors and friends. I live in the real world.


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2012)

ddd-shooter said:


> I suspect you don't want an honest answer, but here goes for the little girl .
> The devil didn't create he11. God did. The devil has no power to create. See Genesis 1. "In the beginning God..."
> 
> The devil does not run he11. He is on the earth. See Job 1:7. "And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it."
> ...



Many people are well versed in the Bible. As unbelievable as it may be to you, some people just don't believe what is written in the Bible. Where outside of the Bible can you find anything about this Devil? Is there anything really about him outside of religion? And(like with God-s)since many religions have their own version of the dark hoary prince of the neither-world, what makes the Christian version any better or more true? Only the Christians believe in the Christian version.


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## fish hawk (Oct 6, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Common sense does not equal making personal assumptions.
> 
> My guess would be an "overzealous Christian" is someone who preaches about it constantly, constantly has to include some sort of praise to God for each and everything they do,see or say, and wears their religion on their sleeve(along with the Jesus fish on their bumper and rosary beads on their rear view mirror, and bobble head Jesus/angel stuck to their dash.)  As compared to your average Christian or Atheist who quietly goes about their business without drawing attention to who or what they believe in.


Yea,thats just the person an Atheist wants to hang with.Right?Someone thats gonna preachin at them and trying to save there soul.......Makes complete sense now!!!


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## bullethead (Oct 6, 2012)

fish hawk said:


> Yea,thats just the person an Atheist wants to hang with.Right?Someone thats gonna preachin at them and trying to save there soul.......Makes complete sense now!!!



Nobody said WANTS to hang with, but no matter what anyone believes they can still be sociable and interact with just about anyone. And I ain't gonna lie......when I do get the opportunity to be in an overzealous WHATEVERS company....it makes for some great conversation.

I'd wager that if you asked anyone in my neighborhood to tell you what MY beliefs are not one would honestly know.


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## ross the deer slayer (Oct 6, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Forget the dog. Lets say a hot stove, a bicycle accident, splinter, broken glass......as hard as it is WE as parents try our best to prevent as much as we can for our children, loved ones and people we don't even know, and we have no knowledge of what is going to happen ahead of time. You and I both know that if we could foresee any hazards we would take actions to make sure they never harmed our children. Being that we are all God's children the logic just does not add up. We make excuses like, " well god is above logic and reason" "his plan is this..." " we can't understand God's will" and on and on but they are just excuses to give the a free pass to the most powerful, loving and compassionate being that sends his only Son to save us and yet allows THE greatest force of evil to not only exist, but run rampant since the beginning of time. And do NOTHING about it. Sorry, I don't make excuses for the things that should be done and are not and then give praise for the coin flip odds of things that will happen anyway.



Alright I see where you're coming from. I might say "we can't understand God's Will" as a way of getting out of trying to explain it. I mean we CAN'T understand God's Will but I know you want a different answer..I can't think of one that might satisfy you. Sorry


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## ddd-shooter (Oct 7, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Many people are well versed in the Bible. As unbelievable as it may be to you, some people just don't believe what is written in the Bible. Where outside of the Bible can you find anything about this Devil? Is there anything really about him outside of religion? And(like with God-s)since many religions have their own version of the dark hoary prince of the neither-world, what makes the Christian version any better or more true? Only the Christians believe in the Christian version.



I assumed asath was framing the little girls question within a Christian worldview. (Seemed obvious to me he wanted it that way) I was answering his question, not  arguing the superiority of Christian belief over any other. Trying to stay on topic. Lol


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## bullethead (Oct 7, 2012)

ddd-shooter said:


> I assumed asath was framing the little girls question within a Christian worldview. (Seemed obvious to me he wanted it that way) I was answering his question, not  arguing the superiority of Christian belief over any other. Trying to stay on topic. Lol



Ok,Gotcha


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2012)

Thought provoking thread. Many conflicting opinions within te Christian camp. I don't have the answer but would like to point out one of the conflicts being used. Satan is deemed "the god of this world", yet has no power????


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2012)

Biblically speaking, who is the devil. Others jump in to correct me or add to. This will be a starting point to get the conversation going. Originally, per the bible, if you believe it as being truth, the devil was a high ranking angel whom God used as a tool to work his will. Paul verifies this in te fact that he said he would hand someone over to satan to be taught not to blaspheme. Satan, I assume from the context, envied God and his glory. Instead of serving God, he no longer wanted to be a servant, but desired to elevate himself to god like status. He convinced a large portion of the other angels to rally around himself. Kind of like the movie Lion King where the kings brother took over with the hyenas. Poor example, I know. Or think of another country where someone is always starting a revolt and trying to step into power. Satan and his followers were kicked out of heaven [definition varying] and sent to earth where they wait a final judgement. His angels known as demons who occupy wherever/whomever they can since they don't have a body. Why were they allowed to attach themselves to God's creation. Why did God allow his creation to be inflicted? Because the mother of all living was corrupted by her own free will, not being deceived by satan, but choosing the same thing that satan choose. She wanted to be like God. She wanted is glory. Not just creative powers, but the glory that comes from being God. So by her sin, somehow we inherit this same sin. Sinful from birth. How did this sin move from her to us being born with it? From this, man being made to be eternal, was cursed. God said "you will surely die". Mankind began ageing and time began ticking. But Jesus, pleasing the father, being foreknown from the prophesis, was raised from the dead by God for not trying to gain from this world all he could, but made himself nothing, umbling himself, careful to give God credit for all, pointing out that he could do nothing, therefore God displayed is chief character in that whomever exalts himself will be humbled and whomever humbles himself will be exalted. He raised him from the dead and gave him a name above all others. All authority has been given to him. Not having attempted to gain this for himself, God gave it to him. ......... Hopeing this to spur lots of conversation and for those to point out how or why, what might be unsupported, etc


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## Asath (Oct 7, 2012)

“I dont believe this for one split second.....this is something you fabricated in your own mind because you think it sounds good or bad!!!Why would an overzealous neighbor invite an atheist to there barbeque?
Also,Christians tend to not let there children interact closely with atheist,just as an atheist wouldn't want there children interacting closely with a christian.I'll give you this though,you have a good imagination!!!”

What else is there to say?  

That not everyone is a closed-minded, isolationist, separatist bigot?  That would be true, in a sense, but only narrowly.  

That not everyone defines themselves, and their friends and neighbors, entirely in terms of which church or synagogue or mosque (or lack of same) they attend?  That would also be true, but again only narrowly.

That truth may often be found in the honest wonder of innocents, rather than in the brain-washed, selfish, protectionist attitudes of ‘adults?  True again, but the young lack the prejudices of their parents, and are punished for it until they, too, become narrow-minded tribal protectionists.

Oddly enough, ‘round here a Democrat or a Catholic or a Lutheran or a Republican or an independent or a dreaded ‘Hindoo’ is just another fella with his own odd outlook on life.  Turns out they all have to eat, they all enjoy company and respectful discussion, they all want to have a good time (though, I must say, democrats turn out to be horrible at horseshoes), and though it may shock the sensibilities of those that wish to live in total isolation, it turns out that when some ‘God’ or another (each according to his excuse) decides to lay waste to the neighborhood in the form of a major weather event, we all tend to rely upon each other for mutual aid and survival.  Helps if you know each other, and aren’t so fanatically sectarian that you can’t get along with others.   

When the power’s out, the well won’t pump, the roads are blocked, the truck is crushed under a fallen tree, there’s a hole in the roof with another tree visiting the kitchen, the chimney’s cracked from the impact, and the snow is a foot and a half deep, REAL people tend to act like civilized humans, and tend not to ask which freaking CHURCH YOU PREFER before coming to your aid, nor you to theirs.  

Seems like things are different in your neighborhood.  That’s a pity.  Sounds more like you live in a walled community of self-interest than in an actual society of free-thinking men.

I suppose I can only hope, for the sake of the children, that ALL of them ask the hard questions, and find the fictitious and loudly exclusivist views of their parents absurd.  For my own part, the best answer I could come up with for her was, “Yeah, It doesn’t make much sense, does it?  But don’t worry, as you grow older, it gets even more nonsensical and confusing.”  Not much help, but I could hardly lie to her.  Figured honesty demands the same, but gently.  

For all of that, the question still stands.  Unless the God of Heaven (that many imagine) is equally the God of Hades, where his displeasure is eternally wrought, and this God presides over both and makes the sole decision concerning who ends up where (in your own mythology), then the descriptions of BOTH places are left wanting.

And if your God does solely own BOTH places, as some here suggest, then a God who would do such a thing as eternal punishment to ANY part of His creation for the sole sin of not joining the tribe of Protestants is a fascist and a sadistic being, not worthy of anyone’s worship.  But if this God has sub-contracted out the eternal punishment part, as most all preachers suggest, to this Devil being (the anti-God, in the story), then the Devil would certainly have no interest in claiming souls only to punish them – Hades, in this case, would be the same as Heaven, only with fun, and nobody shoving pamphlets in your hand every time you open a beer.

As the child said – it don’t make any sense the way you folks tell it . . .


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## Ronnie T (Oct 7, 2012)

All that I know of the devil, as an individual being, can be held in the palm of a flea's hand.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 7, 2012)

Can anyone show me he11 in te OT?


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## fish hawk (Oct 8, 2012)

Asath said:


> “I dont believe this for one split second.....this is something you fabricated in your own mind because you think it sounds good or bad!!!Why would an overzealous neighbor invite an atheist to there barbeque?
> Also,Christians tend to not let there children interact closely with atheist,just as an atheist wouldn't want there children interacting closely with a christian.I'll give you this though,you have a good imagination!!!”
> 
> What else is there to say?
> ...


From your past post and the way you blast Christians and the way they think it just seems odd that you would be hanging out with them, having to endure the constant bible thumping.If you would have said they were anything but overzealous I might have bought into the fictitious little girl thing you dreamed up in the middle of the night..... Makes about as much sense as a group of mexican gang members throwing horseshoes and BBQ'ing with a group from the FOP


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## outdooraddict (Oct 8, 2012)

Asath said:


> You are quite right.  I do not believe in either God or Satan.  They are both human constructs, fictional characters created by men to control other men.  Odd, and unfortunate, but true.
> 
> So my jape is aimed at those who stubbornly hold the party line, as above.  Examine the thought, as it has been spoon-fed to children and is still done, and try not to wonder why the many of them are abandoning the pews.
> 
> ...



Everybody stop the "hatin" and move on. The little girl riddle is very simple and turns on the faulty assumption that Satan wants to be popular or is putting together a softball team. He's not. Since emotions are running high on a very simple story, make them Zeus and Hades or X and Y.
Hades wants to hurt Zeus. Hades wants to destroy or torture the mortals that belong to Zeus because that causes Zeus the most pain. Hades wins that with some mortals and they are tortured or destroyed. Hades is not about to send them popsicles, everybody at the BBQ had too much beer to help the little girl out.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 8, 2012)

I've been on a few field trips where the elementary school kids asked questions that the experts had trouble answering.
As for the BBQ, I would not have trouble hanging out with Atheist, JW's, Muslims, or Methodists. I'll even add homosexuals and Democrats.


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## centerpin fan (Oct 8, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> As for the BBQ, I would not have trouble hanging out with Atheist, JW's, Muslims, or Methodists. I'll even add homosexuals and Democrats.



You're very tolerant.


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## outdooraddict (Oct 8, 2012)

tolerance of all "opinions" on morality- Jon Stewart and the Daily show. 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/we...y-of-inclusion


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## bullethead (Oct 8, 2012)

outdooraddict said:


> Everybody stop the "hatin" and move on. The little girl riddle is very simple and turns on the faulty assumption that Satan wants to be popular or is putting together a softball team. He's not. Since emotions are running high on a very simple story, make them Zeus and Hades or X and Y.
> Hades wants to hurt Zeus. Hades wants to destroy or torture the mortals that belong to Zeus because that causes Zeus the most pain. Hades wins that with some mortals and they are tortured or destroyed. Hades is not about to send them popsicles, everybody at the BBQ had too much beer to help the little girl out.



How do you know what Satan wants?


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## outdooraddict (Oct 8, 2012)

bullethead said:


> How do you know what Satan wants?



The simple answer to the simple riddle, like I said call him what ever you want.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 8, 2012)

I try to think outside the box, to ponder how others see me or my faith. If I were an athiest, who did not believe in God or the bible, I would have to conclude that this Satan is fabricated. I see evil in the world, but that does not prove Satan exists. I suspect that only those who believe the bible context will believe such as the devil. Their is a group, I call them Christian, others will disagree, but they have an interesting view of satan, They are called "Christiadelphins". I did not spell that right, but it would come up if googled


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 8, 2012)

I don't think all evil in the world comes from Satan. People can be bad from their own free-will.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 8, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Exactly! Why else would the Devil use Demons to do his dirty work instead of locking them up for eternity for being soooo bad?



satan unleashes his demons, he doesn't lock them up for being so bad...God does/or will.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 8, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I don't think all evil in the world comes from Satan. People can be bad from their own free-will.



I agree sorta...free will without conviction from the HS is evil.

All unbelievers are not evil, but they are just not redeemed from the grasp of satan....satan is after everyone to do evil....satan doesn't care whether we are evil or not (because we all can be) he only cares if you're snatched up from his snare...he doesn't worry about the unsaved because they belong to him, no matter the extent of evil envolved. "i'm a pretty good moral guy" don't get it if you are not delivered from the snare.


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## mtnwoman (Oct 8, 2012)

bullethead said:


> How do you know what Satan wants?



What he wants? he wants you and me to be in his legion, that's all he wants...satan wants anyone who will be 
'antiChrist'


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## ted_BSR (Oct 9, 2012)

Asath said:


> You are quite right.  I do not believe in either God or Satan.  They are both human constructs, fictional characters created by men to control other men.  Odd, and unfortunate, but true.
> 
> So my jape is aimed at those who stubbornly hold the party line, as above.  Examine the thought, as it has been spoon-fed to children and is still done, and try not to wonder why the many of them are abandoning the pews.
> 
> ...



This is a well written opinion piece. However, there is no truth it.

The answer to her question is,"Because he is bad." The Devil doesn't want people to be with him, he wants to take them away from God. The Devil doesn't care about people. ....and popcicles for everyone!!!!


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2012)

ted_BSR said:


> This is a well written opinion piece. However, there is no truth it.
> 
> The answer to her question is,"Because he is bad." The Devil doesn't want people to be with him, he wants to take them away from God. The Devil doesn't care about people. ....and popcicles for everyone!!!!



Some answers should start:
"according to the Bible" or "according to Biblical legend" "the devil wants this or does not want that"...., unless some of you have had first hand experience or conversations with the devil and are speaking from first hand experience.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Oct 10, 2012)

I sorta agree with that, Bullet.   I debate from a bible-viewpoint.   There may be other religions or denominations that believe in a devil as described by Asath, but from a Bible standpoint, his argument sounds like Bill Nye's factless, logical fallacy-ridden emotional rant.    Asath builds a straw man (if he's discussing the devil of the Bible) in several points...as the devil does not "host" he!!, and he!! is not his home.    According to the bible, this Earth is owned by the devil....and is his home.   Who, according to the bible, is "the god of this world"?   Yep....the devil.  

BTW, if there is no god or devil....then really there is no such thing as evil or good.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2012)

BTW, if there is no god or devil....then really there is no such thing as evil or good.[/QUOTE]

I think there most certainly is. Good and Evil are shown time and time again being perpetrated by man and man alone.


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## stringmusic (Oct 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> I think there most certainly is. Good and Evil are shown time and time again being perpetrated by man and man alone.


"Good" and "Evil" in your above quote needs definitions, that is where the problem arises.

There must be a line drawn in the sand sort of speak, an end all be all, a source for what good and evil mean, without that, those words are meaningless.


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## 1gr8bldr (Oct 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Some answers should start:
> "*according to the Bible*" or "according to Biblical legend" "the devil wants this or does not want that"...., unless some of you have had first hand experience or conversations with the devil and are speaking from first hand experience.


I try to mention this often, realizing that not everyone here sees it as fact


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> "Good" and "Evil" in your above quote needs definitions, that is where the problem arises.
> 
> There must be a line drawn in the sand sort of speak, an end all be all, a source for what good and evil mean, without that, those words are meaningless.



There is no line in the sand. One cannot exist without the other and in some circumstances where one fits, there is another circumstance where it is the opposite. In Religious terms, "good" and "evil" have different meanings than when used elsewhere. There just is no universal definition.

Read on:
http://www.hinduism.co.za/goodand1.htm


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## stringmusic (Oct 10, 2012)

bullethead said:


> There is no line in the sand. One cannot exist without the other and in some circumstances where one fits, there is another circumstance where it is the opposite. In Religious terms, "good" and "evil" have different meanings than when used elsewhere. There just is no universal definition.
> 
> Read on:
> http://www.hinduism.co.za/goodand1.htm



You just made my point, in your worldview, good and evil have no definitions.

So when you say "that person was wrong to do that" you have no basis for your assertion.


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## bullethead (Oct 10, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> You just made my point, in your worldview, good and evil have no definitions.
> 
> So when you say "that person was wrong to do that" you have no basis for your assertion.



So where do you say I should get a definition?
Did you even read the link I provided?


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## stringmusic (Oct 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> So where do you say I should get a definition?


Some things are inherent in being created by God. The Bible and prayer are other ways.



> Did you even read the link I provided?



No, I'll try to read over it sometime today.


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## bullethead (Oct 11, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> Some things are inherent in being created by God. The Bible and prayer are other ways.


I say some things are inherent from our species. 

You and I both seem to get along through life, both in good times and bad and treat others as we wish we would be treated ourselves, despite our opinions on where these things come from.





stringmusic said:


> No, I'll try to read over it sometime today.


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## ted_BSR (Oct 11, 2012)

bullethead said:


> Some answers should start:
> "according to the Bible" or "according to Biblical legend" "the devil wants this or does not want that"...., unless some of you have had first hand experience or conversations with the devil and are speaking from first hand experience.



This is a fair statement BH. Or maybe, "according to my beliefs...."


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