# Poll: Is the Bible the inerrant and infallible word of God?



## PWalls (Dec 10, 2005)

Do you believe with all of your heart that the Bible is wholly true that everything in it has happened as it was written or will happen as it is written? No discrepancies, no errors and no falsehoods.


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## hpurvis (Dec 10, 2005)

The original scrolls, yes. God does not make mistakes. Translations may have errors. I always go back to the original text when I have questions. 

By the way. Many people think the KJV is the orignal Bible. It is not. It is the one I use and prefer, but it is a translation.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 10, 2005)

Looks like I'm the first 'no' voter.   I would have preferred that the option read something like "no....there are errors and/or discrepancies"

I found the 'questionchristian' site to be informative.   I, too, believe that most apparent discrepancies can be logically explained, but there are some that cannot be.   The Nazareth one for example.    Luke has Joseph and Mary living in Nazareth before Jesus' birth.   Matthew has Joseph and Mary going there ONLY after Jesus' birth.   To me this is a very minor difference, but a difference nonetheless.   IMHO I'm sure that details about Joseph and Mary's pre-Jesus years were sketchy, and there could have been some misunderstanding, especially from Luke who was not a companion of the Lord, but merely accompanied Paul.    

Keep in mind that at the time of the writing of the New Testament that the written Word did not include the New Testament gospels or letters.

Bandy


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## reylamb (Dec 10, 2005)

Matthew 2:1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem

Luke
2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David: )
2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
2:6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

Both Gospels agree, Jesus was born in Bethlehem.  Joseph took Mary, then pregnant, to Bethlehem to be taxed.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 10, 2005)

_Luke 1:26-27   And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary._

Here, Mary is clearly residing in Nazareth before Jesus is born.
_
Matthew 2:23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene. _

Here, Mary and Joseph choose to live in Nazareth only after Jesus is born.    It didn't say that they "returned to where they lived before Jesus was born".     

I'll also add here that Matthew does not state that the prophecy of the Messiah being a Nazarene is written anywhere, but states that it is something that the prophets have only spoken.   No need to look through the phophets for this prophecy since it was only a spoken one.   No doubt the Jewish community at the time understood this.  Matthew does state that Jesus fulfills 'written' prophecy in other chapters.  

Bandy


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## RThomas (Dec 10, 2005)

*No.*


> Translations may have errors. I always go back to the original text when I have questions.


Where have you found the original texts??


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## gordon 2 (Dec 10, 2005)

RThomas, originals are out of the picture so to speak. I doubt that much of the hebrew texts, New Testament, exits. Greek translations of course do exit. 

I was listening  to a scolar's explanation, just this week, that the "virgin" birth has its origins in Iseah, but in fact states " born of a young women" in hebrew and was translated in the greek texts as "born of a virgin"....

Some events in the bible have happened...but...the editors have their hands all over it... I don't view it as a historical document...but as a spiritual one.


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## reylamb (Dec 10, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> _Luke 1:26-27   And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,  To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary._
> 
> Here, Mary is clearly residing in Nazareth before Jesus is born.
> _
> ...




There is no contradiction here, only man's feeble attempt to show the Bible as having errors.  Because Matthew does not say they returned there is some sort of errror?  I need to also clairfy something else here.  My statement about feeble attempts was not directed towards you Bandy, it was geared towards the websites similar to the one you mentioned.  

Many folks that seem to find contradictions in the Bible do so using the English translations, not the original Greek or Hebrew translations.  Doing so will always lead to fallacy as there are phrases and words that do not translate and keep their original meenings.  For example, there is one word in the English for love, but 3 (or is it 4) words for love in the Greek.  I love my wife, my kids and my friends.  All 3 examples use the word love even though the conotations for all 3 are different.  In the Greek there are 3 seperate words to mean love in all 3 of those examples.


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 10, 2005)

gordon 2 said:
			
		

> RThomas, originals are out of the picture so to speak. I doubt that much of the hebrew texts, New Testament, exits. Greek translations of course do exit.



Hey Gordon!
Actually, that is not accurate... there are many original Hebrew texts.  There have been since ancient times strict rules for writing Torah scrolls... nothing can be written from memory, every letter must be copied from an original scroll open in front of the scribe, if one letter is missing or added the entire scroll must be buried, no letters are allowed to touch each other, scribes must have special training, etc. just to name a few.    

Every Jewish synagogue has a Torah scroll that is written in Hebrew and read to the congregation in Hebrew.  So the Hebrew original texts are very easy to acquire.

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 10, 2005)

Matthew 27:1-10 
Early in the morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people came to the decision to put Jesus to death. They bound him, led him away and handed him over to Pilate, the governor.

When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty silver coins to the chief priests and the elders. "I have sinned," he said, "for I have betrayed innocent blood."

"What is that to us?" they replied. "That's your responsibility."

So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. *Then he went away and hanged himself.*
The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since *it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. That is why it has been called the Field of Blood to this day*. Then what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled: "They took the thirty silver coins, the price set on him by the people of Israel, and they used them to buy the potter's field, as the Lord commanded me." 

Acts 1:18-19 
(With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; *there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out.* Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, *so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood*.) 

These are 2 passages about Judas' death that are clearly contradictory.  I'm not writing this myself, this is from the New Testament... how can someone read these 2 different accounts and still say there is no discrepancy??    

I think some people are afraid to admit that there are discrepancies in the text.  The truth is that the very nature of the New Testament lends itself to discrepancies.  The New Testament was not written or dictated by God.  It is a compilation of letters and written accounts that were handed down by the earliest Christians.  And being such, there is a large margin for errors simply because the authors were human.  What I mean is, if you have 4 people who witness an incident, for example a car crash, each of those 4 people are going to relate their views differently.  Each person saw it from a different perspective.  The main events will probably be the same (two cars crashed) but the details may be different... the color of the cars, the opinion of who was at fault, etc.  The first manuscripts were written approximately 30 years after Jesus's crucifixion.  Before they were written, they were handed down orally.

  Has anyone ever played the "telephone game"?  You get a group of people together in a circle, and one person whispers a sentence in the ear of the person beside them.  Then that person whispers in the ear of the person beside them, and so on until the last person in the circle says what was whispered in their ear.  Rarely is it the same sentence that was whispered to begin with because it has been misunderstood as it was passed through the circle.  Now, I'm not saying that is what happened with the New Testament, but it is possible that things were added or altered as the gospels were handed down over the years.

Also it helps to remember that anywhere in the New Testament where it talks about something in the scriptures, it is talking about the Old Testament, as those were the only scriptures at that time... so when the New Testament says that every jot and tittle are true, it is talking about the Old Testament, the same one Jesus followed.

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## blindhog (Dec 11, 2005)

Perhaps at first a discrepancy. But in a common expression explanation one can see it's not a contradiction at all, only a different way to say the same thing.

go to and read:

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/569


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 11, 2005)

blindhog said:
			
		

> Perhaps at first a discrepancy. But in a common expression explanation one can see it's not a contradiction at all, only a different way to say the same thing.
> 
> go to and read:
> 
> http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/569




Hey Blindhog!
I read the site you linked above... sure have to do alot of assuming/guessing.....

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## blindhog (Dec 11, 2005)

You say assuming/guessing. I disagree, there's no "reaching" at all in this case.

I say "led by the Spirit".


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## PWalls (Dec 12, 2005)

blindhog said:
			
		

> You say assuming/guessing. I disagree, there's no "reaching" at all in this case.
> 
> I say "led by the Spirit".



Exactly.


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## MSU bowhunter (Dec 12, 2005)

In the beginning the word with with God and the word was God.

Can't be any more clearer than that.


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## RThomas (Dec 12, 2005)

> Actually, that is not accurate... there are many original Hebrew texts. There have been since ancient times strict rules for writing Torah scrolls... nothing can be written from memory, every letter must be *copied * from an original scroll open in front of the scribe...


Sorry, but there are no original manuscripts.  However, there are many copies of copies of copies.
We know that not all the copies match.  Many of the manuscripts differ from one another.  The only way to be sure which ones are correct, would be to compare the copies to the originals- which there are none KNOWN to exist.
So, if we know that the copies do not all match, and there are no known originals, it is impossible to say how accurate todays bibles are to the original manuscripts.
Even if we did have originals, many of those- especially the old testament, originated as oral stories for centuries.
Anyway, bible history is fun stuff 

And Gordon, I agree.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 12, 2005)

RThomas said:
			
		

> Even if we did have originals, many of those- especially the old testament, originated as oral stories for centuries.



We do know that this can't be said for the New Testament!      Only the most critical Biblical scholars date any of the New Testament books past 80CE.    No time for 'centuries' of oral development.    I Corinthians, the earliest book in the New Testament, lays out the christian creed in what most date as early as 40AD...    
_
For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. _

Bandy


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## groundhawg (Dec 12, 2005)

About the "Torah"


The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings. 

Written Torah 
To Jews, there is no "Old Testament." The books that Christians call the New Testament are not part of Jewish scripture. The so-called Old Testament is known to us as Written Torah or the Tanakh. 

This is a list of the books of Written Torah, in the order in which they appear in Jewish translations, with the Hebrew name of the book, a translation of the Hebrew name (where it is not the same as the English name), and English names of the books (where it is not the same as the Hebrew name). The Hebrew names of the first five books are derived from the first few words of the book. The text of each book is more or less the same in Jewish translations as what you see in Christian bibles, although there are some occasional, slight differences in the numbering of verses and there are a few significant differences in the translations. 

TORAH (The Law): 

Bereibig toebig toebig toebig toeh (In the beginning...) (Genesis) 
Shemoth (The names...) (Exodus) 
Vayiqra (And He called...) (Leviticus) 
Bamidbar (In the wilderness...) (Numbers) 
Devarim (The words...) (Deuteronomy) 
NEVI'IM (The Prophets): 

Yehoshua (Joshua) 
Shoftim (Judges) 
Shmuel (I &II Samuel) 
Melakhim (I & II Kings) 
Yeshayah (Isaiah) 
Yirmyah (Jeremiah) 
Yechezqel (Ezekiel) 
The Twelve (treated as one book) 
Hoshea (Hosea) 
Yoel (Joel) 
Amos 
Ovadyah (Obadiah) 
Yonah (Jonah) 
Mikhah (Micah) 
Nachum 
Chavaqquq (Habbakkuk) 
Tzefanyah (Zephaniah) 
Chaggai 
Zekharyah (Zechariah) 
Malakhi 
KETHUVIM (The Writings): 

Tehillim (Psalms) 
Mishlei (Proverbs) 
Iyov (Job) 
Shir Ha-Shirim (Song of Songs) 
Ruth 
Eikhah (Lamentations) 
Qoheleth (the author's name) (Ecclesiastes) 
Esther 
Daniel 
Ezra & Nechemyah (Nehemiah) (treated as one book) 
Divrei Ha-Yamim (The words of the days) (Chronicles) 
Written Torah is often referred to as the Tanakh, which is an acrostic of Torah, Nevi'im and Ketuvim.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 12, 2005)

*Bible Numerics*

I'm posting this again here because of it's relavence to this discussion:

http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html

IS GOD A MATHEMATICIAN?

By Keith Newman. 
The authenticity of the Holy Bible has been attacked at regular intervals by athiests and theologians alike but none have explained away the mathematical seal beneath its surface. 

It would seem the divine hand has moved to prevent counterfeiting in the pages of the Bible in a similar manner to the line that runs through paper money. Bible numerics appears to be God's watermark of authenticity.  

Vital research on this numeric seal was completed by a native of the world's most renowned atheistic nation, Russia. Dr Ivan Panin was born in Russia on Dec 12, 1855. As a young man he was an active nihilist and participated in plots against the Czar and his government. He was a mathematical genius who died a Harvard scholar and a citizen of the United States in 1942. 

Panin was exiled from Russia. After spending a number of years studying in Germany he went to the United States where he became an outstanding lecturer on literary criticism. 

Panin was known as a firm agnostic - so well known that when he discarded his agnosticism and accepted the Christian faith, the newspapers carried headlines telling of his conversion.  

It was in 1890 that Dr Panin made the discovery of the mathematical structure underlining the vocabulary of the Greek New Testament. He was casually reading the first verse of the gospel of John in the Greek: "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with the God and the Word was God...". 

Dr Panin was curious as to why the Greek word for "the"' preceeded the word "God"' in one case and not the other. In examining the text he became aware of a number relationship. This was the first of the discoveries that led to his conversion and uncovered the extensive numeric code.  

Oldest manuscripts

Dr Panin found his proof in the some of the oldest and most accurate manuscripts - the Received Hebrew Text and the Westcott and Hort Text. 

In the original languages of the Bible, mostly Hebrew and Greek, there are no separate symbols for numbers, letters of the alphabet are also used to indicate numbers. 

The numeric value of a word is the sum total of all its letters. It was curiosity that first caused Dr Panin to begin toying with the numbers behind the texts. Sequences and patterns began to emerge. These created such a stirring in the heart of the Russian that he dedicated 50 years of his life to painstakingly comb the pages of the Bible. 

This complex system of numbering visibly and invisibly saturates every book of the scriptures emphasising certain passages and illustrating deeper or further meaning in types and shadows. The 66 books of the Bible 39 in the Old and 27 in the New were written by 33 different people. 

Those authors were scattered throughout various countries of the world and from widely different backgrounds. Many of them had little or no schooling. The whole Bible was written over a period of 1500 years with a 400 year silence apart from the Apocrypha between the two testaments. Despite the handicaps the biblical books are found to be a harmonious record, each in accord with the other. 

Dr Panin says the laws of probability are exceeded into the billions when we try and rationalise the authorship of the Bible as the work of man. He once said: "If human logic is worth anything at all we are simply driven to the conclusion that if my facts I have presented are true, man could never have done this.  

Inspiration from on high

"We must assume that a Power higher than man guided the writers in such a way, whether they knew it or not, they did it and the Great God inspired them to do it''. 

The Bible itself states clearly that it is the literal God-breathed'' living word of the Creator. The words "Thus saith the Lord"' and "God said"' occur more than 2500 times throughout scripture. 

In 2 Timothy 3:16 it states "All scripture is given by inspiration of God". Then in 2 Peter 9:20-21 it plainly states: "No prophecy of the scriptures is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost". 

Let's take the number seven as an illustration of the way the patterns work. Seven is the most prolific of the mathematical series which binds scripture together. The very first verse of the Bible "In the begining God created the heaven and the earth" (Gen 1:1), contains over 30 different combinations of seven. 

This verse has seven Hebrew words having a total of 28 letters 4 x 7. The numeric value of the three nouns "God", "heaven" and "earth" totals 777. Any number in triplicate expresses complete, ultimate or total meaning. 

Also tightly sealed up with sevens are the genealogy of Jesus, the account of the virgin birth and the resurrection. Seven occurs as a number 187 times in the Bible (41 x 7), the phrase "seven-fold" occurs seven times and "seventy" occurs 56 times (7 x 8).  

In the Book of Revelation seven positively shines out: there are seven golden candlesticks, seven letters to seven churches, a book sealed with seven seals, seven angels standing before the Lord with seven trumpets, seven thunders and seven last plagues. In fact there are over 50 occurrences of the number seven in Revelation alone. 

Divisible by seven

There are 21 Old Testament writers whose names appear in the Bible (3 x 7). The numeric value of their names is divisible by seven. Of these 21, seven are named in the New Testament: Moses, David, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Hosea and Joel. The numeric values of these names is 1554 (222 x 7). David's name is found 1134 times (162 x 7). 

God's seal also pervades creation as though it were woven into the very fabric of nature. 

The Bible has declared man's years to be three score and ten (70). The development of the human embryo is in exact periods of sevens or 28 days (4 x 7). Medical science tells us the human body is renewed cell for cell every seven years. 

We're told the pulse beats slower every seven days as if it were in accord with the seventh day of rest proclaimed in the Genesis creation week. And God formed man of the dust of the ground (Gen 2:7); science confirms the human body is made of the same 14 elements (2 x 7) found in your average handful of dust. 

The light of the sun is made up of seven distinct colours as shown in the rainbow. In music there are seven distinct notes which climax in a chord or octave at the beginning of a new seven. 

In almost all animals the incubation or pregnancy period is divisible by seven. Seven is often referred to as "God's seal" or the number of spiritual perfection. 

Number of resurrection

Eight is the number of new life or "resurrection". It is the personal number of Jesus. When we add together the letter values of the name Jesus in the Greek we get 888. Jesus was called The Christ, the numeric value of this title is 1480 (185 x 8). He was Saviour which has the value 1408 (2 x 8 x 88). 

Jesus is also Lord which again is a multiple of eight being 800 (100 x 8). Messiah has the numeric value 656 (82 x8). Jesus also called himself the Son of man. The term occurs 88 times and is valued at 2960 (370 x 8). 

Jesus said "I am the truth": the numeric value of "the truth" is 64 (8 x 8). The last book in the Bible is the Revelation of Jesus Christ which has exactly 888 Greek words. Eight persons were saved in the Ark at the great Noahic flood. God made a covenant with Abraham that every male Jewish child was to be circumsised on the eighth day of his life. 

There are eight individual cases of resurrection spoken of in the Bible apart from Jesus. Three occur in the Old Testament, three in the gospels and two in Acts. It was on the eighth day or the first day of the new week that Jesus rose from the dead. The Holy Spirit also came down from heaven on the eighth day. 

Nine is finality or completion. The first example of its use is that infinitely sealed first verse of the Bible: "In the beginning God'' which in Hebrew is: Braybig toebig toebig toebig toeh Elohim which has the numeric value of 999. The very next statement "created the heaven" is also sealed with 999. 

Nine is finality

The number nine is endowed with a peculiar quality, it is finality in itself. Not only is it the final single number, but if you multiply it by any other number, the addition of the resulting figures will always revert back to nine (2 x 9 = 18 / 1 + 8 = 9 etc). 

There are nine basic gifts available to the Christian believer through the power of God's Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:8-10). There are nine basic fruits which should be evident in the life of the believer (Gal 5:22-23). The words "my wrath" have the numeric value 999. The word Amen or verily is valued at 99 and occurs 99 times. 

The work on the cross was completed at the ninth hour when Jesus said "It is finished". The shedding of his blood was final. It saw an end to the old system of animal sacrifice to atone for sin. The word "blood" in this sense occurs 99 times. 

Great superstition has always surrounded the number 13 as being unlucky or dark. Perhaps there is good reason. One of the most convincing proofs of the origins of this number can be found by unraveling all the names by which Satan is known. Drakon or dragon has a value of 975 (13 x 75) and it occurs 13 times. Peirazon or tempter has a value of 1053 (13 x 81). Belial which is personification of evil has a value of 78 (13 x 6). 

Anthropoktonos or "murderer" has a value of 1820 (13 x 40). Ophis or "serpent" is 780 (13 x 60). The phrase used by the Holy Spirit Ho kaloumenos diablos kai ho Satanas or "called the Devil and Satan" is valued 2197 (13 x 13 x 13). 

Small neat calculations

This article is in truth an oversimplification of the work of Dr Panin and others who followed in his footsteps. Dr Panin's work initially involved some 40,000 pages of material on which he had written millions of small neat calculations. It involved volumes.  

He often laboured up to 18 hours a day exploring the vast numeric structure. By and large it was a thankless task. Dr Panin said "When I first made the discovery I was of course, taken off my feet - I was in the same condition as our friend Archimedes who when he solved a great mathematical problem while in the bath, rushed in to the street naked, crying 'I have found it'. I thought people would be delighted to embrace the new discovery, but I found human nature is always the same. So I quietly withdrew and did my work all by myself". 

Although it would appear that his work has been largely lost from popular reading today Dr Panin did accomplish several outstanding works. He published Structure in the Bible the Numeric Greek New Testament and the Numeric English New Testament. 

The works of Dr Ivan Panin have been put before the experts many times. Dr Panin once challenged nine noted rationalists and Bible critics through the medium of the New York Sun newspaper Nov 9, 1899. He dared them to publicly refute or give explanation for a few of his presented facts. Four made lame excuses. The rest were silent. 

Dr Panin issued a challenge throughout leading newspapers of the world asking for a natural explanation or rebuttal of the facts. Not a single person accepted.


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 13, 2005)

blindhog said:
			
		

> You say assuming/guessing. I disagree, there's no "reaching" at all in this case.
> 
> I say "led by the Spirit".




Well I am fine with agreeing to disagree 

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 13, 2005)

RThomas said:
			
		

> Sorry, but there are no original manuscripts.  However, there are many copies of copies of copies.
> We know that not all the copies match.  Many of the manuscripts differ from one another.  The only way to be sure which ones are correct, would be to compare the copies to the originals- which there are none KNOWN to exist.
> So, if we know that the copies do not all match, and there are no known originals, it is impossible to say how accurate todays bibles are to the original manuscripts.
> Even if we did have originals, many of those- especially the old testament, originated as oral stories for centuries.
> ...



Hi RThomas!
On your comment about the copies not matching, I challenge you to find 2 copies of the Torah in Hebrew that do not match.  The copies of the Torah are done very specifically and have been since ancient times, it is a 'burden' that they do not take lightly as they were commanded by God that not one letter was to be added or taken away from the Torah at the risk of severe punishment.  In their eyes, one word could mean the difference in the survival of the world.  

As for the rest of the bible, including the New Testament, THANK YOU for admitting that it is IMPOSSIBLE to know if the scriptures you have today are accurate to the originals!!! This has been my point all along!!  How could a loving, fair and just God base man's eternal existance on something that could be changed by man? One word changed and it could mean the difference between eternal life or eternal death.  The God I believe in and read about in the "Old Testament" would not do that to His creation.

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 13, 2005)

BANDERSNATCH said:
			
		

> We do know that this can't be said for the New Testament!      Only the most critical Biblical scholars date any of the New Testament books past 80CE.    No time for 'centuries' of oral development.    I Corinthians, the earliest book in the New Testament, lays out the christian creed in what most date as early as 40AD...
> _
> For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. _
> 
> Bandy



Hi Bandy!
Of course it can be said of the New Testament... it may not have been for centuries, but that is really irrelevant... it WAS passed on by word of mouth before it was documented on paper, and therefore it could have been changed as the story went along.

On your scripture passage, can you tell me what verses you are quoting?  And in the verse "4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:"  , what 'scriptures' are being referred to here?

On a side note, I have really learned alot from this thread and the other thread, and thank you all for your posts!!!

Love,  light & blessings,
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 13, 2005)

groundhawg said:
			
		

> About the "Torah"
> 
> 
> The word "Torah" is a tricky one, because it can mean different things in different contexts. In its most limited sense, "Torah" refers to the Five Books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. But the word "torah" can also be used to refer to the entire Jewish bible (the body of scripture known to non-Jews as the Old Testament and to Jews as the Tanakh or Written Torah), or in its broadest sense, to the whole body of Jewish law and teachings.
> ...



Hi groundhawg!
Thanks for your post! I'm not exactly clear on what the purpose was, but it was informative nonetheless!
I'm curious though, are you Jewish?

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 13, 2005)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> I'm posting this again here because of it's relavence to this discussion:
> 
> http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html
> 
> IS GOD A MATHEMATICIAN?




Hey Striper! 
That was quite interesting!  I have seen similar studies done on famous works of literature as well.   It is certainly amazing results that they come up with!  I'm glad to hear that it changed someone who did not believe in God at all... but it doesn't change my mind about the validity of the NT... IMHO there are discrepancies in the NT that don't add up with the original teachings of God (the OT) or the other books of the NT, so numerical values of individual words or letters have no merit to me.  However nothing could ever take away my belief in God the Creator!  

Love, light & blessings, 
Kerri


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## StriperAddict (Dec 13, 2005)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> IMHO there are discrepancies in the NT that don't add up with the original teachings of God (the OT) or the other books of the NT, so numerical values of individual words or letters have no merit to me.
> Kerri



Then how do you account for the fact that the divine "mathematical" thread throughout the OT (indicating divine origin) is found the SAME way throughout the NT??  (And not just in single words or letters, but whole text passages in the OT & NT.)

Your case for "discrepancies" on this thread is a poor one, when I have time I'll document some of your prior notes with answers.   Or just start a new thread on those points.

Dixie, I'm sorry your church history and talks/studies with those who have an agenda against Christ  ... seemed to have led you away from the validity of the NT and into false teachings.  Everything in the OT points to Jesus as our hope for forgiveness   , I hope you can see that again someday.


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## Lead Poison (Dec 13, 2005)

Yes, the Bible has NO errors and is the inspired word of God!


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 13, 2005)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> Dixie, I'm sorry your church history and talks/studies with those who have an agenda against Christ  ... seemed to have led you away from the validity of the NT and into false teachings.  Everything in the OT points to Jesus as our hope for forgiveness   , I hope you can see that again someday.




Hi Striper!
Thank you for taking the time to post!  I apologize if I have given you the wrong idea on my studies... I worked with both Jews AND Christians while I was going through my studies.  Two of the Christians I worked with (I consider them scholars) were John McTernan and Louis Ruggiero (whom have since had some differences and parted ways) who have both written and published books on the subject of Jesus being King Messiah.  Not that the sources matter really, but I just didn't want you thinking that all of my information and studies came from non-believers.

Also, I am truly and completely convinced that if you found a person who had never heard of Jesus or God, handed them the Old Testament and had them read it from beginning to end, and then asked them, "So what do you think of Jesus?"  they would have no idea who you were talking about... because the OT doesn't talk about Jesus at all... IMHO, of course.

For me to look to a man again for hope of forgiveness would certainly take a work of God!  But I don't see that happening... even the scriptures say "Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. (Psalms 146:3)  My forgiveness rests with God and God alone.  

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## PWalls (Dec 14, 2005)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> Also, I am truly and completely convinced that if you found a person who had never heard of Jesus or God, handed them the Old Testament and had them read it from beginning to end, and then asked them, "So what do you think of Jesus?"  they would have no idea who you were talking about... because the OT doesn't talk about Jesus at all... IMHO, of course.




Poor analogy. Take a man who had never heard of World War Two, give him a history book that stops at 1938 and then ask him what you thought of the Nazis and Hitler and the war and he would have no idea because you limited his information.

IMHO, you take a person that has never heard of God or Jesus and read the entire Bible to them (old and new) and they are going to come away a born again Christian with Jesus and His love in their heart.


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## LadyRoadkill (Dec 14, 2005)

Well put.



			
				PWalls said:
			
		

> Poor analogy. Take a man who had never heard of World War Two, give him a history book that stops at 1938 and then ask him what you thought of the Nazis and Hitler and the war and he would have no idea because you limited his information.
> 
> IMHO, you take a person that has never heard of God or Jesus and read the entire Bible to them (old and new) and they are going to come away a born again Christian with Jesus and His love in their heart.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 14, 2005)

Dixie Dawg said:
			
		

> For me to look to a man again for hope of forgiveness would certainly take a work of God!



*Exactly...!!  it is a work of God....  *  
John 6:28-29 read as follows:
'Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'

Isaiah 53:5-6   'He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.'

The word "him" is not in reference to a nation as you errouneously say (how could God use a whole nation to remove our sins?) But in keeping with the law and OT sacrifice, Jesus was the "Lamb that was slain", fulfilling this Isaiah text.

And, If our hope for forgiveness was OUR doing, we'd boast about it...

Ephesians 3:8 "For by grace are you saved through faith, that not of yourselves, it is the GIFT OF GOD, not as a result of works (keeping the law), that no one may boast"


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## StriperAddict (Dec 14, 2005)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> the coming of the Christ, the coming of the Messiah is the point of discussion.



End times and His coming would be a great talk.  But this thread started out with the question as to the divine inspiration of the scriptures.

If you open a thread about the end and the role of the church & believers, you'll sure to get responses.  I say go for it....


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## StriperAddict (Dec 14, 2005)

Woodswalker said:
			
		

> My interest, on this day, would be most related to how best to set up a plan of action for the next 1 to 2 thousand years, prior to the actual return of the Christos (coming of the Messiah)  in case the plan was needed.


Here's the plan until He comes...

Matt 28:18 Jesus came up and spoke to the disciples, saying: All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.
19 Go ye therefore, make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


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## ZMI (Dec 14, 2005)

When it was written I am sure they thought it was the truth.  Remember not long ago we everybody thought the world was flat.


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## StriperAddict (Dec 14, 2005)

ZMI said:
			
		

> When it was written I am sure they thought it was the truth.  Remember not long ago we everybody thought the world was flat.


Yes, but 2,200 years  before we thought the earth was flat, God spoke through Isaiah...

"Have ye not known? have yet not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?  It is he that sitteth above *the circle of the earth*"  (Isaiah 40:21,22)


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 14, 2005)

PWalls said:
			
		

> Poor analogy. Take a man who had never heard of World War Two, give him a history book that stops at 1938 and then ask him what you thought of the Nazis and Hitler and the war and he would have no idea because you limited his information.




Hey PWalls!
I don't think it's a poor analogy at all... according to Christianity, Jesus is all over the Old Testament and prophecies about him are riddled through all of the books of the OT.  I have read posts on here that claim there are over 300 prophecies that Jesus fulfilled.

Perhaps I should have worded my question differently... and instead said to ask them "who is the Messiah?"

Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 14, 2005)

StriperAddict said:
			
		

> Isaiah 53:5-6   'He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.'
> 
> The word "him" is not in reference to a nation as you errouneously say (how could God use a whole nation to remove our sins?) But in keeping with the law and OT sacrifice, Jesus was the "Lamb that was slain", fulfilling this Isaiah text.
> 
> ...


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## Dixie Dawg (Dec 14, 2005)

Sorry, had to cut the post in half due to too many words! 

Question:           Does Israel (as G-d's servant) "fit" into Isaiah 53:7?
Answer:              YES!

Isaiah 53:8 – From imprisonment and from judgment he was taken, and his generation who shall tell?  For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague came upon them.



Isaiah 53:8(KJV) – He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.


Except for the last phrase in the verse, the two renditions are reasonably similar.  A significant difference exists in the way the Hebrew word  (lamo) is translated in the respective versions of the last phrase.  The Jewish version renders the word as upon them, while the KJV renders it as he.  This difference in translation also creates a significant difference in the context of the phrase.  In the Jewish rendition, the context points to a nation that was stricken.  In the KJV translation, the context points to an individual who was afflicted.  Since both versions cannot be simultaneously valid, which is the correct rendition?

 A closer look at the word  (lamo) helps resolve this issue.  A good Hebrew-Hebrew dictionary will identify the word  (lamo) as a synonym for the word  (lahem), meaning, them(selves), for them(selves), to/unto them(selves), they [have] (particularly in Biblical Hebrew).  The image of a page from such a dictionary[2] demonstrates the equivalence of  (lamo) and  (lahem)

Likewise, a good Hebrew-English dictionary will provide the correct English translation of the word  (lamo).  The image of a page from such a dictionary[3] demonstrates the equivalence of  (lamo) and  (lahem) and has the English translation of  (lamo) as [poetic] them, to them

These two authoritative sources provide the correct meaning and translation of the word  (lamo).  A word study helps ascertain that this is also the proper and common application in the Hebrew Bible.  Table V.B-2 shows all the instance of the word  (lamo) in the Hebrew Bible.  The row that pertains to the Book of Isaiah is highlighted for the purpose of further study:

Isaiah :16:4; 23:1; 26:14,16; 30:5; 35:8; 43:8; 44:7,15; 48:21; 53:8



The KJV rendition of Isaiah 44:15 is problematic for the following reason.  The verse in question is part of a passage, Isaiah 44:9-20, wherein Isaiah decries the futility of idols and derides the foolish zeal of idolaters.  In the Hebrew text, the prophet switches between the plural and the singular as he refers to those who fashion the idols and to the idols themselves.  Clearly, the context here is in the plural for both – Isaiah is speaking of people who fashion and worship idols, and not to a singular individual who creates a single idol.  [The usage of compound nouns is common in the Hebrew Bible.  The plural application of the compound noun  (pessel), idol, in Isaiah 44:15 is an example (see also Ps 97:7).]  Even though cast in the singular form, the Hebrew text of Isaiah 44:13-17 conveys, without ambiguity, the notion that the prophet is speaking of wooden idols as one kind of useless gods, how they are made and then worshipped.  This is evident from the fact that the passages which precede and follow are rendered in the plural.  Therefore, the correct translation must be in the plural.  It is interesting to note that even the Christian LXX has this verse rendered in the plural: 



Isaiah 44:15(LXX) – That it might be for men to burn: and having taken part of it he warms himself; and they burn part of it; and bake loaves thereon; and the rest they make for themselves gods, and they worship them.



The KJV rendition provides a contextually incorrect translation for this passage and, therefore, the reader may get the wrong impression that this particular application of  (lamo) is in the singular and not in the plural.  Since Isaiah made use of the word  (lamo) on 11 occasions, why would he use it in a different way here, where it might give rise to ambiguity?  Would he want to be ambiguous when it comes to berating idolatry?



Without the support from the incorrect KJV rendition of  (lamo) in Isaiah 44:15, the rendition by the KJV of  (lamo) in Isaiah 53:8 stands out as a peculiar exception, one that promotes a Christian theological concept, and this will be addressed in Part II, the essay that deals with the Christian perspective.  Thus, according to authoritative sources on the Hebrew language, and as demonstrated from the applications in the Hebrew Bible, the Jewish rendition of  (lamo), as upon them, is the correct one.



An additional interesting Hebrew linguistic nuance supports  (lamo) as being plural and not singular.  There is a poetic suffix "-mo" commonly used in the Hebrew Bible in place of the more common suffix "-hem" which usually ends verbs and nouns conjugated in the 3rd-person, plural, masculine gender.  These instances occur primarily in passages that have some poetic structure.  Several such cases are found in Moses' Song of the Sea (Exod 15:1-19), e.g.,  yochlei-mo (consumes them; v. 7); timla'ei-mo, torishei-mo (shall be satisfied upon them, shall destroy them; v. 9); kisa-mo (covered them; v. 10); tivla'ei-mo (swallowed them; v. 15); tevi'ei-mo vetita'ei-mo (bring them and plant them; v. 17).  There are several additional cases in the Song of Moses in Deuteronomy (Deut 32:1-43), numerous other instances in the Book of Psalms, and a few examples in the Book of Job.  There are also similar poetic suffix substitutions that apply to other pronouns, but these are not relevant here.  The salient point concerning the suffix "-mo" is that it also applies to the common term  (lahem), which is the form of the preposition  (le-), to, in the 3rd-person, plural, masculine gender, i.e., a combination of "le-" and the suffix "-hem".  By replacing the "-hem" with the "-mo", the (poetic) synonym  is obtained.  This demonstrates that  (lamo) is a collective term which must, by necessity, point to a plurality and not to an individual.  In the case of Isaiah 53:8, it clearly points to a collection of people and not to any individual person.  



With the grammatical issue resolved, and the Jewish translation shown to be correct, the meaning of this verse can be explained.  As noted earlier, a change in attitude of the (Gentile) nations takes place in Isaiah 53:4-7, as a new realization of Israel's grandeur was settling in their minds.  Here, in Isaiah 53:8, each leader of the (Gentile) nations finally acknowledges that his own nation's (my people) iniquities inflicted the suffering on Israel.  When Israel's exile finally ends, the leaders of the (Gentile) nations will marvel at a people who survived the expulsion(s) from the land of the living (an expression often used in the Hebrew Bible for the Land of Israel [e.g., Ezek 26:20, 32:23,24,25,26,27,32]), along with all the unfair and unjust treatment that accompanied their time in exile.

Has this been the experience of Israel during its times in exile?  The "thumbnail sketch" of scenes out of Jewish history (Sec. IV.B) contains the answer.



Question:           Does Israel (as G-d's servant) "fit" into Isaiah 53:8?
Answer:              YES!

Interim Summary – Isaiah 52:13-53:1-8 

Using a verse-by-verse analysis of the Hebrew text, and with the help of a correct translation from the Hebrew, testing of the hypothesis formulated in Sec. III.B continued as part of the Verification stage of the Scientific Method. 

The voice of the (Gentile) nations, the new "voice" that appeared in Isaiah 53:1, continued to speak in the present passage.  Based on its consistency with the teachings of the Hebrew Bible and the historical record, the present segment continues to confirm the validity of the hypothesis that Israel, as G-d's servant, is the subject in the Fourth Servant Song. 



Love, light & blessings,
Kerri


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