# Hebrew Tidbits.



## Lowjack (Jan 18, 2013)

It is said one cannot comprehend The Word of G-d 100% unless one can read it in the original Language , here is an example , In genesis 1 , it says " And the Spirit of G-d moved upon the waters" yet in Hebrew it gives a beyond just that meaning ,as written זיע"ו"כ"י wind vaamshch Messiah's spirit God, The Word is Vaamsch which literally means the Spirit of the Messiah (Christ).

If you enjoy this kind of revelation let me know.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 18, 2013)

Didn't Jesus have a hand in the creation?
I wish I could read Hebrew. I've noticed from our discussions, we all have different interpretations for the meaning of "scriptures","gospel", "Kingdom of God", and "Word of God".
If I don't have an idea or basis for what gospel Jesus was teaching, what gospel can I teach? Jesus preached the "gospel of the Kingdom of God". 
Thanks for any revelation from you and everyone else too.


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## rjcruiser (Jan 18, 2013)

Makes perfect sense...especially with John 1.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 18, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> It is said one cannot comprehend The Word of G-d 100% unless one can read it in the original Language , here is an example , In genesis 1 , it says " And the Spirit of G-d moved upon the waters" yet in Hebrew it gives a beyond just that meaning ,as written זיע"ו"כ"י wind vaamshch Messiah's spirit God, The Word is Vaamsch which literally means the Spirit of the Messiah (Christ).
> 
> If you enjoy this kind of revelation let me know.



I will have to have this validated by several hebrew readers. It is to strange that I have never heard this before.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2013)

Very interesting lowjack...: Is this correct? A messiah is a saviour or liberator of a people in the Abrahamic religions? Is this correct? and Christos means messiah?

And and on to this.... the spirit of the saviour moved apon the water and proceeded with the creation of man?


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I will have to have this validated by several hebrew readers. It is to strange that I have never heard this before.



Well I'm a Hebrew reader and professor of Hebrew History , but you can have it checked and let us know.


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> Very interesting lowjack...: Is this correct? A messiah is a saviour or liberator of a people in the Abrahamic religions? Is this correct? and Christos means messiah?
> 
> And and on to this.... the spirit of the saviour moved apon the water and proceeded with the creation of man?



Correct ,notice also that some NT verses interchange the Spirit of God and the Spirit of messiah (Christ)
Romans 8;9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him

It must seem strange that in some passages Paul simply identifies the Spirit with Christ (1 Cor. 15:45; see 6:17; 2 Cor. 3:17). According to these passages the Spirit does not come through Christ; rather, Christ himself is this Spirit.


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Correct ,notice also that some NT verses interchange the Spirit of God and the Spirit of messiah (Christ)
> Romans 8;9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him



Well, well now John is not nebulous after all as rjcruiser states.

"
 John
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it."


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## gordon 2 (Jan 19, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Correct ,notice also that some NT verses interchange the Spirit of God and the Spirit of messiah (Christ)
> Romans 8;9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him
> 
> It must seem strange that in some passages Paul simply identifies the Spirit with Christ (1 Cor. 15:45; see 6:17; 2 Cor. 3:17). According to these passages the Spirit does not come through Christ; rather, Christ himself is this Spirit.



OH HOW WONDERFULL!!!!!!!!!! This is something many christians know in their hearts but are more than not unable to articulate it or they just blab it out and for it they are more than not viewed as eccentrics or at worse Kooks...
Thanks bros... you have made my day...



And this:quote  According to these passages the Spirit does not come through Christ; rather, Christ himself is this Spirit.[/QUOTE]


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

Amen !


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 19, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Well I'm a Hebrew reader and professor of Hebrew History , but you can have it checked and let us know.



Hello Lowjack, It seems odd to me that if this is so that it has not been a long standing proof text of those that have been trying to prove the diety of Jesus. If it is so then it would make the Spirit of Jesus pre-existant and devine. The thousands of years of conflict over this issue would be over. I find it hard to believe that of all the years that I have studied this debate, that not once has this surfaced. I will look into it and give an honest appraisel when I hear from some of my Hebrew cyber friends


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## StriperAddict (Jan 19, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Lowjack, It seems odd to me that if this is so that it has not been a long standing proof text of those that have been trying to prove the diety of Jesus. If it is so then it would make the Spirit of Jesus pre-existant and divine. The thousands of years of conflict over this issue would be over. I find it hard to believe that of all the years that I have studied this debate, that not once has this surfaced. I will look into it and give an honest appraisal when I hear from some of my Hebrew cyber friends



As RJ said, it does make perfect sense. I guess I have believed this a Divine reality by way of revelation of the same Spirit, and never a conflict at all.  But there are many reasons our belief (systems) miss a mark, and how critical this one is - is for some pondering I suppose.

Nevertheless I certainly love learning from Hebrew scholars on our common faith and grace, and our Messiah as He is revealed in all books of the OT.
Keep it up!


An aside:
Sorry I've missed so much here lately. PC problems and internet accounts (lack thereof) have me making the best of online time when I get it.  
Blessings, ya'll


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Hello Lowjack, It seems odd to me that if this is so that it has not been a long standing proof text of those that have been trying to prove the diety of Jesus. If it is so then it would make the Spirit of Jesus pre-existant and devine. The thousands of years of conflict over this issue would be over. I find it hard to believe that of all the years that I have studied this debate, that not once has this surfaced. I will look into it and give an honest appraisel when I hear from some of my Hebrew cyber friends



The Pre existance of Masshiach is questionable only by the cults who do not believe in his deity , for it is found everywhere in the Torah and Tenach , it is not rare for me to find gentiles who come from different backgrounds and claiming to understand Hebrew and yet not finding the thousands of ways in which the Torah reveals masshiach's pre existance, Including what some call apocrypha books in Hebrew such as the book of Enoch.

We all have received a different Measure of the Spirit (Masshiach) so we all don't have the same knowledge or way of transfering that knowledge , Read Teh Scriptures (Torah and TenaK, Book of Prophets) for in them you seem to find "life"(Masshiach) is life as explained by John 1;1, He is the light that shines in all men ! To what extend does he shine in you ? it depends how much you open your window ( Mind)


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 19, 2013)

I appreciate your input here and find your post very informative, but I'm not buying this. I find it hard to believe that the translators of hundreds of bibles have overlooked this. Yet I will wait patiently for my cyber friends to validate this and let you know what they have to say.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 19, 2013)

StriperAddict said:


> As RJ said, it does make perfect sense. I guess I have believed this a Divine reality by way of revelation of the same Spirit, and never a conflict at all.  But there are many reasons our belief (systems) miss a mark, and how critical this one is - is for some pondering I suppose.
> 
> Nevertheless I certainly love learning from Hebrew scholars on our common faith and grace, and our Messiah as He is revealed in all books of the OT.
> Keep it up!
> ...


I too believe that the messiah is revealed in the OT, many times. But those who knew their own faith better than we do, those who knew their own language better than we do, those who knew their expectations of the messiah better than we do, had to have John the baptist tell them several times that he was not the messiah. This tells me what their expectations were. No expectation of a devine messiah


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> I too believe that the messiah is revealed in the OT, many times. But those who knew their own faith better than we do, those who knew their own language better than we do, those who knew their expectations of the messiah better than we do, had to have John the baptist tell them several times that he was not the messiah. This tells me what their expectations were. No expectation of a devine messiah



It had to do with the times in which the scriptures were interpreted , Israel was under the foot of an oppresing Roman Rule, So Israelis were looking for a King Messiah who would free them from that opression.
The Priestly clan was corrupted and in the pocket of an illegitimate Jewish King , everything was corrupted, The Very Reason G-d chose those days to send the Messiah to bring the truth and Gospel to these loss souls, the correct interpretation of the Torah was gone and the spirituality of Jews was dissapearing fast.
As far as interpreters (wrongfully called)were concerened , one thing is to try and translate words to the T and miss the spiritual message behind the Words letters etc of the Hebrew, where in the English Bible do you see the Hebrew Gamatria ? and the Meanings of the Letter symbols ? so forgive me if I say , an  English Bible is only giving you 20% of the meaning of G-d's word.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> Correct ,notice also that some NT verses interchange the Spirit of God and the Spirit of messiah (Christ)
> Romans 8;9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him
> 
> It must seem strange that in some passages Paul simply identifies the Spirit with Christ (1 Cor. 15:45; see 6:17; 2 Cor. 3:17). According to these passages the Spirit does not come through Christ; rather, Christ himself is this Spirit.



This gets confusing, I though Christ Jesus has his own Spirit and God has his own, the Holy Spirit. I don't see how they can be interchangeable if as John said: 3 Through him all things were made; (meaning Jesus was with God during the creation)
I believe the Spirit of Jesus was pre-existant and divine.
If Jesus was with God from the beginning, was the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus pick up another spirit or soul when he became a man?


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> This gets confusing, I though Christ Jesus has his own Spirit and God has his own, the Holy Spirit. I don't see how they can be interchangeable if as John said: 3 Through him all things were made; (meaning Jesus was with God during the creation)
> I believe the Spirit of Jesus was pre-existant and divine.
> If Jesus was with God from the beginning, was the Holy Spirit? Did Jesus pick up another spirit or soul when he became a man?



Yeshua had the Holy Spirit , Which was with G-d in the beginning of all things.
I can see where it gets confusing  due to the introduction of a pagan old world doctriine of a trinity .


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> As far as interpreters (wrongfully called)were concerened , one thing is to try and translate words to the T and miss the spiritual message behind the Words letters etc of the Hebrew, where in the English Bible do you see the Hebrew Gamatria ? and the Meanings of the Letter symbols ? so forgive me if I say , an  English Bible is only giving you 20% of the meaning of G-d's word.



Would you say the Hebrew Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God but the English translations aren't? I would definitely agree they are closer to the Truth than English through Greek, possibly even through other languages.


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## Lowjack (Jan 19, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Would you say the Hebrew Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God but the English translations aren't? I would definitely agree they are closer to the Truth than English through Greek, possibly even through other languages.



I say they are not complete.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 19, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> I say they are not complete.



What's a Gentile to do?


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## Boot (Jan 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What's a Gentile to do?



Study to show thyself approved. Remember that there are no contradictions in the scripture, and that the Almighty never changes. He is the same today as He was when the Torah was written, and keep in mind there a no jews/gentiles in Christ. We were all paid for with the same blood, and covered by the same grace. Old testament men were always listed as "righteous by faith", and we are no different, our faith in Messiah, is our only righteousness. Our obedience to the Fathers commandments will bring more of the Holy Spirit into our heart, and that Spirit will lead us to the true message in the scripture. In my humble understanding, we are wild olive branches, who after accepting Messiah, are grafted into the Kingdom of Elohim, and are no longer "gentiles" per se'.


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## 1gr8bldr (Jan 20, 2013)

Respectfully, I so far have 4 Hebrew readers, one Jewish, one Messianic, one trinitarian and one Atheist who say that this is false. Sorry Lowjack, but I think your being a little overzealous by reading into the text. I'll be glad to point you to those responses but I would have to warn you that they may be insulting. I enjoy your post and respect your insight that you bring but this is not correct.


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## Lowjack (Jan 20, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> What's a Gentile to do?



The prophets say , gentiles will take a jew by the arm and ask teach us ,G-d's precepts and that time is about to start.


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## Lowjack (Jan 20, 2013)

1gr8bldr said:


> Respectfully, I so far have 4 Hebrew readers, one Jewish, one Messianic, one trinitarian and one Atheist who say that this is false. Sorry Lowjack, but I think your being a little overzealous by reading into the text. I'll be glad to point you to those responses but I would have to warn you that they may be insulting. I enjoy your post and respect your insight that you bring but this is not correct.



OK believe what you wish , I'm not here to argue with ghosts , I have enough argueing in person with students, LOL
Hebrew readers without the Spirit of Masshiach is like Rossie O'Donald interpreting the bible , Trinitarian ? and in top an atheists ? LOL


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## gordon 2 (Jan 20, 2013)

What a change a day makes....


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 20, 2013)

Lowjack said:


> OK believe what you wish , I'm not here to argue with ghosts , I have enough argueing in person with students, LOL
> Hebrew readers without the Spirit of Masshiach is like Rossie O'Donald interpreting the bible , Trinitarian ? and in top an atheists ? LOL



Are not most Messianic Jews Trinitarian?


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## Lowjack (Jan 21, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Are not most Messianic Jews Trinitarian?



Depends what you classify as a Messianic Jew ?
There are many Gentiles today that open churches ,call them schulls or Synagogues ,call themselves Jews and dress the part and still believe the Catholic Pagan teachings of most churches today.

I don't believe a real Jew will ever believe in that mumble Jumbo of 3 persons in one etc, we will never believe that teh dead can hear your prayers and interceed for you  , including Jesus' mother. or the other dozens of doctrines that so called Christians believe.
We believe in the multiplicity of offices of the all mighty , not in a multiplicity of persons, God is one as estated over and over in the Bible.

Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet and they will learn that I have loved you. Revelation 3;9


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## mtnwoman (Jan 28, 2013)

gordon 2 said:


> "
> John
> 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it."



This is the chapter we studied yesterday in church. This is such a good text in explaining how the Word (Jesus) is God. The Trinity is hard to explain but this nails it.


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