# Winchester LongBeards XR 3.5" #6 pattern with CVA Apex and Mossberg 835



## UpstateFishing

Since I keep seeing great things about these Winchester XR's I decided to give them a go and see what they would do in my CVA Apex and my Mossberg 835. At 40 yards the CVA with stock choke got 273 pellets, and the Mossberg with the Truglo Bone Collector choke got 297 pellets. I think this will be my new long range shell this season, what y'all think?


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## icdedturkes

Um. Um..

The best pattern I have ever seen with H 13 7s was through that bone collector in a 835 by a guy I trust on the boards.. 

But 293 with longbeard and 273 with a stock choke in a cva.. ???? 

Man I have to ask the obvious how was your 40 determined


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## klemsontigers7

A guy I know shot an 835 with an SSX choke yesterday at 41 yds with Long Beards and put 263 and 261 in a 10" circle.

Go ahead and doubt it, but it's true.


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## klemsontigers7

UpstateFishing said:


> Since I keep seeing great things about these Winchester XR's I decided to give them a go and see what they would do in my CVA Apex and my Mossberg 835. At 40 yards the CVA with stock choke got 273 pellets, and the Mossberg with the Truglo Bone Collector choke got 297 pellets. I think this will be my new long range shell this season, what y'all think?



You might want to change the title to something that includes the words Long Beard as Winchester XR doesn't describe the shell, it describes a different Winchester shell.


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## hawglips

Those are the tightest lead patterns I've seen.

A 2 oz load of lead 6s will have about 437 pellets in the shell.  68% of the payload in the 10" at 40 yds is mighty tight.  His pattern outside of the 10" core is pretty sparse, and they are just lead #6s, so folks are going to see a lot of "misses" with this one I would expect.


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## icdedturkes

klemsontigers7 said:


> A guy I know shot an 835 with an SSX choke yesterday at 41 yds with Long Beards and put 263 and 261 in a 10" circle.
> 
> Go ahead and doubt it, but it's true.



SSX is a good choke in the 835.. I have a pattern like the above that is ridiculously high in the 20 gauge with Fed 7s and it raised eyebrows and drew doubters but it happened at a taped 40, is it repeatable dunno. 

Just sometimes 40 is marched off and a difference of 3-4 yards can be huge... Im not saying its not possible the fact its two guns that put up tremendous numbers that makes me wonder.. But with that being said its very possible he got a hot box of loads or the atmospheric voodoo was all aligned on that particular day.. 

Was that the best of the shells out of the two guns or did you shoot only one shell per gun..


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## UpstateFishing

I deep cleaned the barrels to look like a mirror beforehand. They were "marched off" but I tested it out to 60 yards and they were still getting around 150-160 in a 10". The shells may be too tight for short range but will be great for larger open fields, and guarding against misjudging distance. Check out the numbers on old gobbler, they are just as high with other guns/chokes.


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## klemsontigers7

hawglips said:


> Those are the tightest lead patterns I've seen.
> 
> A 2 oz load of lead 6s will have about 437 pellets in the shell.  68% of the payload in the 10" at 40 yds is mighty tight.  His pattern outside of the 10" core is pretty sparse, and they are just lead #6s, so folks are going to see a lot of "misses" with this one I would expect.



HAHAHAHA you people crack me up.  Did you count the pattern outside of the 10" circle?

In his 14" circle, he has another 82 pellets... that's exceptional for the ring between 10" and 14".

I've shot 7 different choke/gun combos with 155-218 pellets in the 10" circle.  82  is about the best I've seen in the 10-14" circle and is almost exactly what I got with mine when I had 218 in the 10" (I only had a 10" and 13.75" circle to measure with on mine and it had over 80 in the 13.75" circle with part of the circle hanging off the page since i wasn't sighted in yet)


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## klemsontigers7

icdedturkes said:


> SSX is a good choke in the 835.. I have a pattern like the above that is ridiculously high in the 20 gauge with Fed 7s and it raised eyebrows and drew doubters but it happened at a taped 40, is it repeatable dunno.
> 
> Just sometimes 40 is marched off and a difference of 3-4 yards can be huge... Im not saying its not possible the fact its two guns that put up tremendous numbers that makes me wonder.. But with that being said its very possible he got a hot box of loads or the atmospheric voodoo was all aligned on that particular day..
> 
> Was that the best of the shells out of the two guns or did you shoot only one shell per gun..



Same gun, 2 consecutive shots.  41 yds was measured, I can't believe people always doubt that.  Oh well...


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## fullstrut

lots of pros on here. i believe ya. i shot my two guns yesterday with greats results. but there's no need to posts pics or info on shot performance b/c it turns into a heated discussion.


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## klemsontigers7

fullstrut said:


> lots of pros on here. i believe ya. i shot my two guns yesterday with greats results. but there's no need to posts pics or info on shot performance b/c it turns into a heated discussion.



We should have kept it quiet so that we could buy it.  Oh well,  I have 8 boxes now.


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## UpstateFishing

fullstrut said:


> lots of pros on here. i believe ya. i shot my two guns yesterday with greats results. but there's no need to posts pics or info on shot performance b/c it turns into a heated discussion.



Haha yeah not trying to turn it into a peeing contest, just wanted to show y'all what I got. Heck I'm no scientist, but I think they shot well.


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## strutlife

I shot the longbeard xr #6 3.5 in my 835 with a stardot 675 choke and the pattern is WICKED!!!!! Magblend had better make a move. I have 3 boxes of longbeard xr and will be stocking up on more. This is the first time I have ever witnessed a pattern like this in person and with my own shotgun.  Very pleased. Hurry up March!!!


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## The mtn man

I hate to keep harping on these long beards, but I had a similar pattern with my win. 1300, .670 custom choke,      22" barrell. If you guys don't want these, that's fine, but these patterns are legit, out of a fairly inexpensive lead load.


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## cowhornedspike

UpstateFishing said:


> I deep cleaned the barrels to look like a mirror beforehand. They were "marched off" but I tested it out to 60 yards and they were still getting around 150-160 in a 10". The shells may be too tight for short range but will be great for larger open fields, and guarding against misjudging distance. Check out the numbers on old gobbler, they are just as high with other guns/chokes.



^^ This is what scares me.  

The fact that you shot them at 60 and got a good pattern tells me that you will probably shoot at a turkey at that range as well and you NEED to remember that these are LEAD #6 pellets and nothing new or fancy Winchester does to the shell can change that fact.


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## spydermon

Is that a true 10" circle?  Those are some awesome patterns


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## 01Foreman400

Impressive!


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## scott ellis

That is an awesome pattern. I'm gonna give these things a run through my old Winchester 1300!


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## klemsontigers7

klemsontigers7 said:


> HAHAHAHA you people crack me up.  Did you count the pattern outside of the 10" circle?
> 
> In his 14" circle, he has another 82 pellets... that's exceptional for the ring between 10" and 14".
> 
> I've shot 7 different choke/gun combos with 155-218 pellets in the 10" circle.  82  is about the best I've seen in the 10-14" circle and is almost exactly what I got with mine when I had 218 in the 10" (I only had a 10" and 13.75" circle to measure with on mine and it had over 80 in the 13.75" circle with part of the circle hanging off the page since i wasn't sighted in yet)



I'm not surprised that my direct questions to Hawglips never get answered.


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## cowhornedspike

Hal doesn't need my defense but here goes anyway.

There isn't a 14" circle shown (and the 10" isn't very round either) but my guestimate on 14" shows maybe 50 more hits and some very large holes that would not be acceptable in my pattern.  

I'm not saying these aren't good shells or that they can't shoot great patterns but what Hal said was totally correct based on the pictures shown, in my opinion.


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## klemsontigers7

cowhornedspike said:


> Hal doesn't need my defense but here goes anyway.
> 
> There isn't a 14" circle shown (and the 10" isn't very round either) but my guestimate on 14" shows maybe 50 more hits and some very large holes that would not be acceptable in my pattern.
> 
> I'm not saying these aren't good shells or that they can't shoot great patterns but what Hal said was totally correct based on the pictures shown, in my opinion.



I counted his 14"... it was 82.  Everyone keeps guessing or saying what they think these shells do.

It's pretty easy to put it on the computer and make a 14" circle based on his 10".  I was being conservative by using the smallest 10" possible on his target to make my 14" circle.

Give it a try, or... try counting for yourself and you'll see.


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## Reminex

klemsontigers7 said:


> HAHAHAHA you people crack me up.  Did you count the pattern outside of the 10" circle?
> 
> In his 14" circle, he has another 82 pellets... that's exceptional for the ring between 10" and 14".
> 
> I've shot 7 different choke/gun combos with 155-218 pellets in the 10" circle.  82  is about the best I've seen in the 10-14" circle and is almost exactly what I got with mine when I had 218 in the 10" (I only had a 10" and 13.75" circle to measure with on mine and it had over 80 in the 13.75" circle with part of the circle hanging off the page since i wasn't sighted in yet)



Hawglips has no problem answering directly as anyone who has been around awhile should know.  He gave some very good insight in this thread and moved on.

OP-Awesomely tight patterns at 40!  It will flat out smoke those hung-up gobblers.  I will however say to anyone interested that I see 2 scared birds if this would have been the real thing.  I dont know if the POA was the cross or if the gun is sighted in or not though.   I sight mine in with bird shot prior to cycling turkey loads and have never had to adjust.  The problem as Hal stated is the pattern outside of 10, it only gets tighter at the average killing distance of 30 yards. This load will be a top seller and will kill many birds that plated lead couldnt, but you had better move your decoys back, have optics on your gun, and aim small.


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## The mtn man

Klemson, I don't care like these guys about a 10# circle, I seen what they do, and am looking forward to making some turkeys flop with them.I'll pm you a pic of his jelly head.


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## klemsontigers7

Reminex said:


> Hawglips has no problem answering directly as anyone who has been around awhile should know.  He gave some very good insight in this thread and moved on.
> 
> OP-Awesomely tight patterns at 40!  It will flat out smoke those hung-up gobblers.  I will however say to anyone interested that I see 2 scared birds if this would have been the real thing.  I dont know if the POA was the cross or if the gun is sighted in or not though.   I sight mine in with bird shot prior to cycling turkey loads and have never had to adjust.  The problem as Hal stated is the pattern outside of 10, it only gets tighter at the average killing distance of 30 yards. This load will be a top seller and will kill many birds that plated lead couldnt, but you had better move your decoys back, have optics on your gun, and aim small.



Man... if it's not one thing... it's another.  First no one believes the incredible patterns, now people say they shoot "too tight".


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## Covehnter

It's still lead. But I'm glad they're giving good patterns . . . . maybe it is a good alternative to those guys that refuse to pay the $$ for htl loads and it'll result is less crippled or "missed" birds.


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## Curtis-UGA

Anyone shot it out of a Full choke? Seems like that would solve the problem of it shooting "too tight". With today's sights and optics I don't really consider that an issue.


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## sman

Someone put a piece of metal roofing 9 gauge up and shoot it at 40 and then 50. I plan on testing them as soon as I can find them.  I'd do it right now if I had some just to see what happens. 

I'm itching to get a box soon.


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## cowhornedspike

klemsontigers7 said:


> I counted his 14"... it was 82.  Everyone keeps guessing or saying what they think these shells do.
> 
> It's pretty easy to put it on the computer and make a 14" circle based on his 10".  I was being conservative by using the smallest 10" possible on his target to make my 14" circle.
> 
> Give it a try, or... try counting for yourself and you'll see.



Yep you're right; I see it now, perfect pattern with no holes and perfectly even out to at least 14 inches.  

I bet those #6's lead pellets will even kill clean out to 70 or 80 with a pattern like that at 40.   

I'm gettn' plum excited about seeing all the dead turkey pics you are gonna post up in a few months.  

Poor turkeys don't stand a chance...especially at looong range.  Get 'em.



Covehnter said:


> It's still lead. But I'm glad they're giving good patterns . . . . maybe it is a good alternative to those guys that refuse to pay the $$ for htl loads and it'll result is less crippled or "missed" birds.



My fear is they will just shoot at them too far and cripple.. er I mean "miss" more.



sman said:


> Someone put a piece of metal roofing 9 gauge up and shoot it at 40 and then 50. I plan on testing them as soon as I can find them.  I'd do it right now if I had some just to see what happens.
> 
> I'm itching to get a box soon.



Would be an interesting test sman.


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## The mtn man

Cowhorn, I'm gonna use them, but I do agree with you, I don't think it would be a good idea, to start shooting hail marys at 60 yds with lead, I shot 1/2" sheathing grade plywood at 40yds with long beard #4- 3"It appeard that all the shot went through, blowing chunks out of the backside.Thats should penetrate a turkey noggin with no problems, at 40 yards, maybe 50.But that's as far as I would feel comfortable with most any turkey load.


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## icdedturkes

cowhornedspike said:


> My fear is they will just shoot at them too far and cripple.. er I mean "miss" more.



No scenario is perfect but if given the choice on these "misses" I would rather have a bird run off with a few pellets under the skin and live to gobble another spring than have them eventually die and not found.


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## Bucky T

I'll give it to you pattern junkies.

I have more patience hunting turkeys from sun up to sun down than counting pellet holes in a piece of card board.

Lol


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## fullstrut

What's it matter either hunt with emails or don't. 
Shoot what ya will and lets all bag birds. Shoot what ya will. And lets all get along. 
Turkey thread gets as bad as Duck thread this time a year. 
Enjoy the sport and be glad God gave all another day of life
 To hunt the elusive bird that will seek and admire.
 No matter what weapon we choose shoot to the of your ability
and know your target and the yardage.


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## fullstrut

Sorry at work using smart phone. Hunt with them or dont. Choose
Your poison and send down range. We all love this sport it in a positive 
Way


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## klemsontigers7

cowhornedspike said:


> Yep you're right; I see it now, perfect pattern with no holes and perfectly even out to at least 14 inches.
> 
> I bet those #6's lead pellets will even kill clean out to 70 or 80 with a pattern like that at 40.
> 
> I'm gettn' plum excited about seeing all the dead turkey pics you are gonna post up in a few months.
> 
> Poor turkeys don't stand a chance...especially at looong range.  Get 'em.
> 
> 
> 
> My fear is they will just shoot at them too far and cripple.. er I mean "miss" more.
> 
> 
> 
> Would be an interesting test sman.



? When did I mention shooting them that far?


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## Brad C.

I'm with Hal on this one.  Lead 6's are still lead 6's.  And 50yds will be about max range if your lucky.


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## fullstrut

OMG! Why is this shell so difficult? 
Hunt with it or dont. Use Hevi Federal Or whatever your 
gun likes. Lets keep beating a Dead horse. My guns 
like the Win XR longbeard. Its just a thread.


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## Nannyman

fullstrut said:


> OMG! Why is this shell so difficult?
> Hunt with it or dont. Use Hevi Federal Or whatever your
> gun likes. Lets keep beating a Dead horse. My guns
> like the Win XR longbeard. Its just a thread.



And this is the place to talk about it. Helllooooo


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## Reminex

klemsontigers7 said:


> Man... if it's not one thing... it's another.  First no one believes the incredible patterns, now people say they shoot "too tight".



Not just now...been saying for months they shoot to tight.
As well they are not incredible turkey patterns IMO,  As I said they are just incredibly tight.  Great for getting a bunch of holes in 10" at 40,50,60 yards.  Pattern density has ruled turkey load comparisons for years, but now I argue for pattern dispersion being equally important.  Ill say it again that Winchester has developed a truly innovative shell here that will kill at long distances, however the ones I see really hyping it are ones who like me pride themselves in shooting a bird up close. If a load came out that had 200 pellets encased and another 200 free floating I bet it would even up the patterns at all ranges and id buy a case.


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## Timber1

Reminex said:


> Not just now...been saying for months they shoot to tight.
> As well they are not incredible turkey patterns IMO,  As I said they are just incredibly tight.  Great for getting a bunch of holes in 10" at 40,50,60 yards.  Pattern density has ruled turkey load comparisons for years, but now I argue for pattern dispersion being equally important.  Ill say it again that Winchester has developed a truly innovative shell here that will kill at long distances, however the ones I see really hyping it are ones who like me pride themselves in shooting a bird up close. If a load came out that had 200 pellets encased and another 200 free floating I bet it would even up the patterns at all ranges and id buy a case.



What do you consider up close...12 yards, 15 yards, 22 yards, under 30 yards ?


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## turkeykirk

After reading all these posts, I think I'll shoot some just to see how they do. Sounds interesting.


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## klemsontigers7

turkeykirk said:


> After reading all these posts, I think I'll shoot some just to see how they do. Sounds interesting.



Any load that causes this much "fuss" should be shot, haha.


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## klemsontigers7

Okay so dispelling some myths here.  I heard that "the shot is actually smaller than they say and people are getting more pellets on paper than the shell should contain".  I also heard that some of the resin is hitting the paper at 40 yds and putting holes... THAT IS THE FUNNIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!!!!.

So, I cut one open.  I cut open a 3" #6 to count and measure pellets.  First off, there is no way this resin flies very far.  The fact that someone could think it hits the paper at 40 yds is laughable.  The shell had 369 pellets where a 1.75 oz shell should have 381... okay, pretty good.  I wish I had weighed all of the resin and shot together, I almost bet that's where the rest of the weight is going.  So I started measuring, I randomly selected 10 pellets and they ranged in size from .102 - .127.  #6 are supposed to be .11.  The average of the 10 I measured was .11135, sounds pretty good to me.


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## klemsontigers7

I think those armor plated turkeys might survive Longbeards, better get some #2 Hevi x 4 TSS blend loads.


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## Reminex

Interesting work Klemson.  The resin turns out to be buffer that starts in a liquid form.  I agree no way thats putting any holes at 40 yards.  

So I would then deduce that the op had a pattern @40 of 
-297 in 10"
-80 in 10"-14"
-around 20 in 14"-20"

Correct me if im wrong but that gives you maybe 7" of wiggle room at 40.  For a gun with optics it should be no problem.  For a beaded shotgun that most use itll spell trouble especially less than 40.

Ill say this, for anyone who actually knows this and has put forth some bench time like you this shell will be fantastic.  For Billy Bob that walks into BPS and watches the commercial set up at the longbeard endcap hes gonna grab a box and expect to kill easily from 0-70.  Hes not gonna be happy with the results I bet.  Its not the shell fault, it has limitations just like anything else.  itll be the consumer and the advertising.


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## cracker4112

How do ya'll think it will work with a more open choke?  I shoot a double and have a turkey choke in one and a improved modified in the other.  IF I try some of these, perhaps I need to see what they do with a light modified...

Of the turkeys I've shot with this setup, I haven't use the turkey choke yet...


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## goblr77

Reminex said:


> Interesting work Klemson.  The resin turns out to be buffer that starts in a liquid form.  I agree no way thats putting any holes at 40 yards.
> 
> So I would then deduce that the op had a pattern @40 of
> -297 in 10"
> -80 in 10"-14"
> -around 20 in 14"-20"
> 
> Correct me if im wrong but that gives you maybe 7" of wiggle room at 40.  For a gun with optics it should be no problem.  For a beaded shotgun that most use itll spell trouble especially less than 40.
> 
> Ill say this, for anyone who actually knows this and has put forth some bench time like you this shell will be fantastic.  For Billy Bob that walks into BPS and watches the commercial set up at the longbeard endcap hes gonna grab a box and expect to kill easily from 0-70.  Hes not gonna be happy with the results I bet.  Its not the shell fault, it has limitations just like anything else.  itll be the consumer and the advertising.



That's what I'm seeing. My brother bought a box of 3.5" #5 Longbeards to try in his 835. At 40 yards, the 10" pattern through a Jellyhead .690 was nothing to write home about. It was not even and didn't have the numbers I would expect. When he tightened it up with a TG SSX .670 the 10" pattern improved but the 20" was spotty to say the least. He shot Fed Turkey Thug #5s right after a round of Longbeards through each choke and the patterns were much more even all the way through. You can only push the limits of lead so far on a consistent basis and I would much rather have an even pattern with a little wiggle room at that given distance.


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## BASS1FUN

All I shoot is lead, all of my guns are patterned to 60 yds and my farthest kill was at 65 yds. I have tried hevi-shot and other tungsten loads but have not been able to get them to pattern better than the lead, 3.5, #4's with 2.25 oz. does it for me.I have always been one that whatever works for you you should stick with it, hope everyone has a blessed and safe season


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## Nannyman

BASS1FUN said:


> All I shoot is lead, all of my guns are patterned to 60 yds and my farthest kill was at 65 yds. I have tried hevi-shot and other tungsten loads but have not been able to get them to pattern better than the lead, 3.5, #4's with 2.25 oz. does it for me.I have always been one that whatever works for you you should stick with it, hope everyone has a blessed and safe season



With all due respect, you have not tried very hard. Getting patterns better than lead #4 with any HTL is simple. Lead to 65yds is nothing more than. The "Lucky" Silver Bullet. I prefer to be a prepared good shot than lucky. The pellets will kill that far for sure. The patterns is too thin for that distance no matter how you choke it. 
Now I admit to being a patterning junkie and shoot the "pixie" dust but one must put a limit to his shots. We use a number of pellets in a predetermined area as our MER, max. effective range. Most of us use 100 pellets in a 10" circle. When you no longer have that pattern density that your MER. 
It's the same with a gun or bow. How far can you hit a paper plate 100% of the time with your bow. MER. 
To not have a MER is just not acceptable.


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## klemsontigers7

Reminex said:


> Interesting work Klemson.  The resin turns out to be buffer that starts in a liquid form.  I agree no way thats putting any holes at 40 yards.
> 
> So I would then deduce that the op had a pattern @40 of
> -297 in 10"
> -80 in 10"-14"
> -around 20 in 14"-20"
> 
> Correct me if im wrong but that gives you maybe 7" of wiggle room at 40.  For a gun with optics it should be no problem.  For a beaded shotgun that most use itll spell trouble especially less than 40.
> 
> 
> Ill say this, for anyone who actually knows this and has put forth some bench time like you this shell will be fantastic.  For Billy Bob that walks into BPS and watches the commercial set up at the longbeard endcap hes gonna grab a box and expect to kill easily from 0-70.  Hes not gonna be happy with the results I bet.  Its not the shell fault, it has limitations just like anything else.  itll be the consumer and the advertising.



I think that's the case with any gun/shell. If you don't shoot it, how do you know what it does?  Most any gun with any choke and any shell will kill turkeys easily. To get the best performance you have to put in the time, Long Beards or not.


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## Reminex

goblr77 said:


> That's what I'm seeing. My brother bought a box of 3.5" #5 Longbeards to try in his 835. At 40 yards, the 10" pattern through a Jellyhead .690 was nothing to write home about. It was not even and didn't have the numbers I would expect. When he tightened it up with a TG SSX .670 the 10" pattern improved but the 20" was spotty to say the least. He shot Fed Turkey Thug #5s right after a round of Longbeards through each choke and the patterns were much more even all the way through. You can only push the limits of lead so far on a consistent basis and I would much rather have an even pattern with a little wiggle room at that given distance.



I bet you already know this but it is worth repeating that the 3.5 #5 seems to be the least consistent load made in longbeard, ive read and talked about it with many guys buy have not actually seen it with my own eyes but I will this weekend.


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## goblr77

Reminex said:


> I bet you already know this but it is worth repeating that the 3.5 #5 seems to be the least consistent load made in longbeard, ive read and talked about it with many guys buy have not actually seen it with my own eyes but I will this weekend.




Yep, from what I've heard 5s are the worst. I believe it from seeing the patterns firsthand.


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## Reminex

cracker4112 said:


> How do ya'll think it will work with a more open choke?  I shoot a double and have a turkey choke in one and a improved modified in the other.  IF I try some of these, perhaps I need to see what they do with a light modified...
> 
> Of the turkeys I've shot with this setup, I haven't use the turkey choke yet...



You should be good to go with a more open choke. I think Klemson is getting his best patterns out of a less restrictive turkey choke.  Another tidbit that bothers me is that Winchester has claimed the resin doesn't break apart till it exits the barrel, if this is true then restricted chokes should not be getting higher numbers but for the most part they do.


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## BirdNut

Reminex said:


> You should be good to go with a more open choke. I think Klemson is getting his best patterns out of a less restrictive turkey choke.  Another tidbit that bothers me is that Winchester has claimed the resin doesn't break apart till it exits the barrel, if this is true then restricted chokes should not be getting higher numbers but for the most part they do.



I am going to guess that the liquid resin turned solid bond the pellets together somewhat.  There is a lot of force and physics at work once the gun goes bang.  The pellets want to stay at rest but the gas pushes them down the barrel.  I would imagine this alone would break the resin bond.  Then the forcing cone and choke will squeeze and move the pellets around a bit, weakening/breaking the bond more.  Maybe the resin acts to minimize the bouncing of the shot down the barrel (i.e. like a buffered load).  Previous buffers were just particulate matter, not fully filling in gaps and nooks and crannies.  A more open choke would be the logical choice on a pattern that's too tight, but with this shell, I think you would need to test it to make sure a "bullet" is not what exits the muzzle.

I don't personally care for the long range trend, but that's just me.  It is good that a little margin of error can be had (i.e misjudging yardage).  However, I would be concerned about down range energy beyond a certain point.  I wonder why the shell companies don't just post ballistic gelatin and turkey skull tests on youtube for all to see.


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## icdedturkes

Reminex said:


> You should be good to go with a more open choke. I think Klemson is getting his best patterns out of a less restrictive turkey choke.  Another tidbit that bothers me is that Winchester has claimed the resin doesn't break apart till it exits the barrel, if this is true then restricted chokes should not be getting higher numbers but for the most part they do.



I thought I saw he was shooting a 835 with SSX which is about as tight as you will find in the 835.. 

When the 2 foot of snow clears from my shooting table, I am going to see what the tighter SSX .643 out of an Winchoke/Invector bore and see if the pattern blows with that much constriction.


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## BirdNut

Youtube, but no skulls or gelatin...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5VapL87C7ZQ


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## aj.hiner

cowhornedspike said:


> ^^ This is what scares me.
> 
> The fact that you shot them at 60 and got a good pattern tells me that you will probably shoot at a turkey at that range as well and you NEED to remember that these are LEAD #6 pellets and nothing new or fancy Winchester does to the shell can change that fact.



I'm here to tell u that if your scared to shoot at 60 that would be your problem..with a properly set up gun, choke and load you can kill a bird at 60yd..I have does this several times and have yet to wound or miss one..sounds like you need to work on your shooting in order to shoot a birdat 60


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## antnye




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## cowhornedspike

antnye said:


>




^^ this


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## aj.hiner

cowhornedspike said:


> ^^ this



I'm just so tired of people acting like something is unethical or shouldn't be done because they don't feel comfortable doing it..


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## jimbo1187

Thanks for posting that. I was considering trying some new shells in my 20 gauge this year, but realized after reading through this that it will pattern close to what most 12 gauges with 3.5" loads do. I think I'll stick to what works.


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## SC Hunter

I also shoot a 20 gauge and I am positive I can pattern with most 12 gauges at 40 yards you'll have more pellets of course, but I can shoot just as good a pattern. I don't like shooting turkeys past 40 yards. I can do it but I don't prefer too.


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## wild1

If I couldn't get one closer than 60 yards I would just stay home.


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## Gadget

klemsontigers7 said:


> Okay so dispelling some myths here.  I heard that "the shot is actually smaller than they say and people are getting more pellets on paper than the shell should contain".  I also heard that some of the resin is hitting the paper at 40 yds and putting holes... THAT IS THE FUNNIEST THING I HAVE EVER HEARD!!!!.
> 
> So, I cut one open.  I cut open a 3" #6 to count and measure pellets.  First off, there is no way this resin flies very far.  The fact that someone could think it hits the paper at 40 yds is laughable.  The shell had 369 pellets where a 1.75 oz shell should have 381... okay, pretty good.  I wish I had weighed all of the resin and shot together, I almost bet that's where the rest of the weight is going.  So I started measuring, I randomly selected 10 pellets and they ranged in size from .102 - .127.  #6 are supposed to be .11.  The average of the 10 I measured was .11135, sounds pretty good to me.





You got a pic of the wad? Powder? Do you have a scale to weigh the charge? was there anything else in the shell at all? Gas seals, cushion, spacers?


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## fullstrut

Helllooooo! Nannyman.Like I said shoot it Love It or leave it. And yes , dough its a thread. Its a shell that works in some guns and not so good in others. As for me I'm bow only this year. Oh I forgot lets argue about what broached works best now.


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## klemsontigers7

Gadget said:


> You got a pic of the wad? Powder? Do you have a scale to weigh the charge? was there anything else in the shell at all? Gas seals, cushion, spacers?



I threw the wad out.  I'll weigh the charge in a couple of days.  We've shot about 30 of them at my buddy's house, I can pick one up off the ground for you, haha.  I know nothing about reloading shotgun shells, so you'll have to elaborate.  There is a type of felt/paper looking stuff between the powder and the wad, but I haven't dug any deeper than that, I left it alone.  

I wish I had weighed the resin plus the shot, but most of the resin is gone now.  I have a feeling that the listed weight of shot might include the resin, but I'll know in a couple of days.


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## The mtn man

Klemson, I don't think these loads have a traditional wadding, I think the clear bag filled with resin takes the place, with some sort of material that seperates the load from the charge, I may be wrong, but I think I'm right LOL.


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## Gadget

klemsontigers7 said:


> I threw the wad out.  I'll weigh the charge in a couple of days.  We've shot about 30 of them at my buddy's house, I can pick one up off the ground for you, haha.  I know nothing about reloading shotgun shells, so you'll have to elaborate.  There is a type of felt/paper looking stuff between the powder and the wad, but I haven't dug any deeper than that, I left it alone.
> 
> I wish I had weighed the resin plus the shot, but most of the resin is gone now.  I have a feeling that the listed weight of shot might include the resin, but I'll know in a couple of days.




Thanks.

That's alright, gonna buy a box and dissect em myself anyway.


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## gregg

> If I couldn't get one closer than 60 yards I would just stay home.


My thoughts as well.


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## icdedturkes

Gadget said:


> Thanks.
> 
> That's alright, gonna buy a box and dissect em myself anyway.



Thats good to hear.. Gadget knowing you have played with lead the last few years even with attention to detail is it possible to re load lead that patterns as tight as this without the resin?


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## klemsontigers7

cklem said:


> Klemson, I don't think these loads have a traditional wadding, I think the clear bag filled with resin takes the place, with some sort of material that seperates the load from the charge, I may be wrong, but I think I'm right LOL.



No, there's a wadding.


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## Nannyman

Timber1 said:


> lol.



You disagree with something I wrote?  Please continue.


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## Gadget

icdedturkes said:


> Thats good to hear.. Gadget knowing you have played with lead the last few years even with attention to detail is it possible to re load lead that patterns as tight as this without the resin?




Haven't shot any yet but if the patterns that I see posted are repeatable then NO, this is the tightest shooting lead load I've ever seen........ BUT, I see that the fringe of the pattern is often blown out and fragmented with long flyers. Some other lead loads may have a more evenly distributed pattern. I plan to shoot it against some of my handloads and see how it does, that will tell me. If it's that superior to all other buffers out there then other manufactures will duplicate and eventually it will make it into the handloaders hands.


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## Nannyman

fullstrut said:


> Helllooooo! Nannyman.Like I said shoot it Love It or leave it. And yes , dough its a thread. Its a shell that works in some guns and not so good in others. As for me I'm bow only this year. Oh I forgot lets argue about what broached works best now.



That's Mr Doe. 
No argue. A forum is where these things should be talked about. I bet this shell is a great leap for lead patterns. It can only increase range with its increase pattern density. The pellets energy down range cannot be changed with a resin. Only velocity can do that. I bought a box to test. I have nothing against it. If it performs as advertised I will say so.


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## Nannyman

Timber1 said:


> Lol...naw man.  Its all good. Just dont send the mer police after us ok.



No that's not me. That's every man when he lays down to sleep.


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## UpstateFishing

Nannyman said:


> That's Mr Doe.
> No argue. A forum is where these things should be talked about. I bet this shell is a great leap for lead patterns. It can only increase range with its increase pattern density. The pellets energy down range cannot be changed with a resin. Only velocity can do that. I bought a box to test. I have nothing against it. If it performs as advertised I will say so.



Let us know what you find. Klemson's test was informative and I would like to know what the difference in these shells and other lead ones that I'm not even getting half the density at 40 yards with.


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## WFL

This is your stuff.  The shot count was down on the ones I counted.


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## icdedturkes

Gadget said:


> If it's that superior to all other buffers out there then other manufactures will duplicate and eventually it will make it into the handloaders hands.


 Thanks

Thats what I think is so great about it.. With Rem and Win ditching their HTL we could have hit a time in turkey loads where every company became complacent considering how small the turkey market is in the shotshell world.. 

But I have to believe that Fed, Rem and EM are going to have to take notice spawning further innovation, something everyone will benefit from..


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## Nannyman

Timber1 said:


> Well yeah I guess everybody's different. Something you might want to think about. If I ever lose sleep over crippling a gobbler I guess it will be time to take up shuffleboard.



And there you have it. You should be upset about it. That's where your ethics come from. You and the guy who shoots at a turkey at65 yards are the ones we are talkin about. No respect for the animal. 
Good day sir.


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## klemsontigers7

WFL said:


> This is your stuff.  The shot count was down on the ones I counted.



All of the shells I've seen are black, this one doesn't look like it.

The 3.5" have the red wad, 3" is white.


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## klemsontigers7

WFL said:


> This is your stuff.  The shot count was down on the ones I counted.



Someone on Old Gobbler apparently called Winchester and they said the resin is not part of the weight... so I don't know, but I'll weigh the shot tomorrow.  The shot count could be down because of density.  I've seen it mentioned that they used a material that's a little heavier than lead.  Once again, we'll know tomorrow when I weigh the shot.


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## icdedturkes

klemsontigers7 said:


> I've seen it mentioned that they used a material that's a little heavier than lead.  Once again, we'll know tomorrow when I weigh the shot.



See that is the greatest mystery of the shell, they claim 10% greater penetration than typical lead.. How? Only way would be some obscene velocity which it does not have, or increase in density.. 

I kinda wish I was going to Nashville, I would stand at the booth until they answered the penetration question or security escorted me out..


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## klemsontigers7

icdedturkes said:


> See that is the greatest mystery of the shell, they claim 10% greater penetration than typical lead.. How? Only way would be some obscene velocity which it does not have, or increase in density..
> 
> I kinda wish I was going to Nashville, I would stand at the booth until they answered the penetration question or security escorted me out..



Another thing would be keeping the shot together longer in the resin, which I don't think it does.  If it all flew together longer it could keep it's velocity up.  Though, I have heard the shot stays in the shot column longer.  Who knows...


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## icdedturkes

klemsontigers7 said:


> Another thing would be keeping the shot together longer in the resin, which I don't think it does.  If it all flew together longer it could keep it's velocity up.  Though, I have heard the shot stays in the shot column longer.  Who knows...



Thats what I thought when I first read the blogs when only the writers had it.. But like you said everything points away from that in Winchesters description on how it works... 

Now the Herters Xtreme 65 does exactly what you say..


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## WFL

klemsontigers7 said:


> All of the shells I've seen are black, this one doesn't look like it.
> 
> The 3.5" have the red wad, 3" is white.



That is a 31/2.  The 3 is a silver wad.  The 3 inch wad has shown more damage the the 31/2.   The resins breaks up in choke best we can tell.   It a dust cloud about 7 to 10 feet.   Wad traveling about 55 to 60 feet.   Winchester sent us this back in December and we have beat it in the dirt.


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## Nannyman

Not upset by the shell. Displeased by the deceptive advertising and hope to help folks not shoot lead at great distance with questionable pattern density.


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## klemsontigers7

Alright I just weighed the shot.  1.76 oz of shot with VERY LITTLE resin still there.  I got rid of 99% of the resin.  

369 pellets weigh 1.76 oz (advertised as 1.75 oz, so... Winchester ain't lyin...


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## Gadget

WFL said:


> This is your stuff.  The shot count was down on the ones I counted.





Looks to be the same wad setup as the HV's; Gas seal, Nitro style fiber card, full cut 4 petal wad.


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## Gadget

icdedturkes said:


> Thanks
> 
> Thats what I think is so great about it.. With Rem and Win ditching their HTL we could have hit a time in turkey loads where every company became complacent considering how small the turkey market is in the shotshell world..
> 
> But I have to believe that Fed, Rem and EM are going to have to take notice spawning further innovation, something everyone will benefit from..



HTL just isn't profitable enough to manufacture anymore, with this innovation in buffer it will probably drive em even further from it.


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## klemsontigers7

WFL said:


> This is your stuff.  The shot count was down on the ones I counted.



I believe the shot count was down because on average they are larger or more dense than normal copper plated lead.

My #6's measured out larger but density could be a factor too.


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## Gadget

icdedturkes said:


> See that is the greatest mystery of the shell, they claim 10% greater penetration than typical lead.. How? Only way would be some obscene velocity which it does not have, or increase in density..




Marketing; manufactures are coin operated, bottom line..... their in business to make money.

They're gonna tell you it's the cumulative affect of the added pellets that increases the penetration, all the pellets added together, not each pellet; which of course is borderline on lying because penetration is based on depth not cumulative effect. I'm sure they're using the exact same copper plated pellets they use in all their loads.


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## Gadget

klemsontigers7 said:


> Another thing would be keeping the shot together longer in the resin, which I don't think it does.  If it all flew together longer it could keep it's velocity up.  Though, I have heard the shot stays in the shot column longer.  Who knows...




The shot is staying in the column longer, but not so much from the resin holding together outside the barrel, more so from the reduction in deformation, ricochet, and harmonic vibration inside the barrel; some of the same things all buffer does, this does it much better though.


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## icdedturkes

Gadget said:


> Marketing; manufactures are coin operated, bottom line..... their in business to make money.
> 
> They're gonna tell you it's the cumulative affect of the added pellets that increases the penetration, all the pellets added together, not each pellet; which of course is borderline on lying because penetration is based on depth not cumulative effect. I'm sure they're using the exact same copper plated pellets they use in all their loads.



No I believe you are right.. But you can have so much fun at the convention when you ask the hard questions and are stubborn about getting an answer..


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## cowhornedspike

klemsontigers7 said:


> I believe the shot count was down because on average they are larger or more dense than normal copper plated lead.
> 
> My #6's measured out larger but density could be a factor too.



Believe what you want but that is right in line (within 8 pellets to the ounce) with what lead 6 shot should weigh and count so it is not larger or heavier than other copper plated lead 6 shot.


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## klemsontigers7

cowhornedspike said:


> Believe what you want but that is right in line (within 8 pellets to the ounce) with what lead 6 shot should weigh and count so it is not larger or heavier than other copper plated lead 6 shot.



Ummm... okay.  I didn't say they were more dense, I said they might be.  I measured the density, and they were exactly what copper plated lead should be.

Also, on average, they are slightly LARGER than #6, that's why there are a few pellets less than there "should" be.


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## Gadget

klemsontigers7 said:


> Ummm... okay.  I didn't say they were more dense, I said they might be.  I measured the density, and they were exactly what copper plated lead should be.
> 
> Also, on average, they are slightly LARGER than #6, that's why there are a few pellets less than there "should" be.




It's not uncommon for shot to be smaller or larger than what it should spec out, most shot is off by some amount. Plated lead will usually be larger because the copper and nickel plating process will add some size to the pellets.


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## klemsontigers7

Gadget said:


> It's not uncommon for shot to be smaller or larger than what it should spec out, most shot is off by some amount. Plated lead will usually be larger because the copper and nickel plating process will add some size to the pellets.



Totally agree.  I had just heard some of the doubters say it was SMALLER than #6 so I wanted to prove them wrong.


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## HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL

At the end of the day it's still lead!!


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## Brad C.

HAVE GUN WILL TRAVEL said:


> At the end of the day it's still lead!!



Exactly!

And allaboutshooting has mic's some of the ones he had in #6 loads and said that a lot of the pellets were actually #7's.


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## klemsontigers7

Brad C. said:


> Exactly!
> 
> And allaboutshooting has mic's some of the ones he had in #6 loads and said that a lot of the pellets were actually #7's.



Brad, you obviously didn't read my thread.  I measured pellets, there was a range of .102 - .127 and I even weighed the entire load vs the number of pellets.  They averaged out to be slightly LARGER than #6.  For anyone to say they were actually #7's is funny, to me.


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## klemsontigers7

klemsontigers7 said:


> Brad, you obviously didn't read my thread.  I measured pellets, there was a range of .102 - .127 and I even weighed the entire load vs the number of pellets.  They averaged out to be slightly LARGER than #6.  For anyone to say they were actually #7's is funny, to me.



But hey... people believe what they want to and that's okay.  Why trust what someone else did?  Cut one open yourself.


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## Pine Knot Peeps

Long Live Xtended Range!.........while I can still find it. Came across this prized jewel yesterday in local sporting goods. I'm good for a few more years!


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## Bucky T

Pine Knot Peeps said:


> Long Live Xtended Range!.........while I can still find it. Came across this prized jewel yesterday in local sporting goods. I'm good for a few more years!



I've got about 10 or 11 shells left myself!!  I shoot the 3.5" #5's

That is the best firing load I've ever shot out of my gun.  Will flat knock a bird down too!!


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## klemsontigers7

Bucky T said:


> I've got about 10 or 11 shells left myself!!  I shoot the 3.5" #5's
> 
> That is the best firing load I've ever shot out of my gun.  Will flat knock a bird down too!!



Really?  I've been under the impression that turkeys have armor plating and can no longer be killed with lead.


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## Bucky T

klemsontigers7 said:


> Really?  I've been under the impression that turkeys have armor plating and can no longer be killed with lead.



That isn't a lead load.  It's the tungsten load they made for a short time.  

And I've still got plenty of Fed Premium copper plated #5's that roll turkeys just fine too.


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## The mtn man

Pine Knot Peeps said:


> Long Live Xtended Range!.........while I can still find it. Came across this prized jewel yesterday in local sporting goods. I'm good for a few more years!



You lucky rascal, If I ever find any, I will buy all they have.


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## icdedturkes

Pine Knot Peeps said:


> Long Live Xtended Range!.........while I can still find it. Came across this prized jewel yesterday in local sporting goods. I'm good for a few more years!



I know where there is a good number of Xtended Pre Elite from the first few years of production sitting on a shelf which many say is better than the later years production of Xtended..


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## Brad C.

Well I think Clark knows more than most folks on turkey loads.  I think he also answered your question at Old Gobbler.  The shell he cut open had an extra 51 pellets vs what a #6 load should have.  That's a big difference.


----------



## klemsontigers7

Brad C. said:


> Well I think Clark knows more than most folks on turkey loads.  I think he also answered your question at Old Gobbler.  The shell he cut open had an extra 51 pellets vs what a #6 load should have.  That's a big difference.



Yes he did answer. My shell didn't have more.


----------



## Brad C.

Yes.  But his did.  So that just shows that these loads do have smaller size shot.  If one has them, there will be more.


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## striper commander

I just shot a 3.5#6 through my 870. I got 294 with a 665 jelly head and 254 with a rem super full turkey choke. I cut one of the shells open just now and counted 495 shot. How many are they supposed to be in two ounces of copper plated 6's.


----------



## Reminex

striper commander said:


> I just shot a 3.5#6 through my 870. I got 294 with a 665 jelly head and 254 with a rem super full turkey choke. I cut one of the shells open just now and counted 495 shot. How many are they supposed to be in two ounces of copper plated 6's.



Less than that.  I think for copper plated around 420-430.
Were they give or take all uniform?
This is another reason I think #5 is the way to go for longbeards


----------



## klemsontigers7

Reminex said:


> Less than that.  I think for copper plated around 420-430.
> Were they give or take all uniform?
> This is another reason I think #5 is the way to go for longbeards



Copper is less dense than lead, so technically it's about 220/oz so it should have 440 in 2 oz. Did you weigh it?


----------



## striper commander

Yes it weighed two ounces.


----------



## Gadget

Should be around 450 for 2oz


----------



## Brad C.

Gadget said:


> Should be around 450 for 2oz



Yep.  Exactly right.  506 for a 2.25 oz load of 6's.


----------



## striper commander

Maybe the old 6's I cut open today are bigger than 6's.


----------



## cowhornedspike

striper commander said:


> Maybe the old 6's I cut open today are bigger than 6's.



Why would you say that?  Based on your count they were smaller than they should have been.


----------



## striper commander

The old 2 1/4 ounce load of 6's had 465 and the new longbeards had 495 in two ounces. They look like 7's next to the old pellets.


----------

