# 20 ga turkey loads



## hortonhunter22 (Feb 6, 2010)

just wondering if anyone was shooting 20 ga turkey loads and if so which do you prefer?


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## returntoarchery (Feb 6, 2010)

Yep I'm a member of the MKW cult, i.e. 2o gauge shooter.

Fed HW Flightcontrol (15 g/cc) 3" 1-1/2oz #7
Backup
Hevi Shot Hevi-13 3" 1-1/4oz #6

Others here and at oldgobbler.com use Nitros H276 in triplex or straight #7 HTL

The Nitros are the most expensive but throw the best patterns. The Fed HW are probably the best factory loads currently. With the Hevishot Hevi-13 next. HeviShot since 2005 have been less consistent in patterns due to them changing loads, wades, fillers, buffers, etc in even the same lot. 

Do some searches here and on oldgobbler.com you'll see better answers and pattern results.


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## J Gilbert (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm shooting the Hevi13 7's in my 20 this year, with the Hevi 6's as a backup.  As for the MKW cult thing, I thought it was more of a PG/Nitro 20 thing instead of just a 20ga group.  Either way, with these Hevi13s, Federal Heavyweight shells, or Nitros, a 20ga becomes a very formidable turkey slayer


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## returntoarchery (Feb 6, 2010)

timbawolf98 said:


> As for the MKW cult thing, I thought it was more of a PG/Nitro 20 thing instead of just a 20ga group.r



Now that you mention it, I believe you're probably correct about that.


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## fountain (Feb 6, 2010)

only one way to go for the 20--#7 hevi nitros.
i was getting 225+ in my encore 20 ga last year


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## Hobie (Feb 6, 2010)

timbawolf98 said:


> I'm shooting the Hevi13 7's in my 20 this year, with the Hevi 6's as a backup.  As for the MKW cult thing, I thought it was more of a PG/Nitro 20 thing instead of just a 20ga group.  Either way, with these Hevi13s, Federal Heavyweight shells, or Nitros, a 20ga becomes a very formidable turkey slayer




The MKW Cult is the Pure Gold 555 and Nitro straight 7's


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## southGAlefty (Feb 7, 2010)

Andy go check out oldgobbler.com, they have a forum just for 20 gauge turkey guns. I've got a 20 gauge Mossberg 500 I'm trying to fix up before the season, know a good gunsmith around here?


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## diamondback (Feb 7, 2010)

T & F Firearms north of Thomasville is a good option ill get ya his number


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## Beasley (Feb 7, 2010)

Winchester #4s with a Undertaker in my youth model Remington 870 is very deadly!


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## fountain (Feb 7, 2010)

beasley--try a .555 pure gold and the nitro 7's.  the nitros are definately worth the $$ in the 20.


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## hawglips (Feb 8, 2010)

Hobie said:


> The MKW Cult is the Pure Gold 555 and Nitro straight 7's



With a Remington, that combo is a slam dunk 200 in 10" pattern!


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## rcf1968 (Feb 8, 2010)

where can i get some of fed.heavy weights at?


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## Fanfare (Feb 11, 2010)

What about a good shell in 2 3/4" for the 20 gauge?Mine won't shoot 3".....


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## hawglips (Feb 11, 2010)

Fanfare said:


> What about a good shell in 2 3/4" for the 20 gauge?Mine won't shoot 3".....



The Remington 1 oz. magnum #6 will get the job done if you keep it close.


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

hawglips said:


> The Remington 1 oz. magnum #6 will get the job done if you keep it close.



Or 

http://www.remington.com/products/a...ey-loads/nitro-mag-buffered-magnum-loads.aspx

Index Num- NM20S6	
Order number - 20666

Nitro Mag Buffered Magnum Loads	2 3/4" 1175 fps	1 1/8 oz	#6


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## howl (Feb 11, 2010)

Win Supreme 1 5/16oz #5s through a Truglo Gobble-Stopper Xtreme works to forty.


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

howl said:


> Win Supreme 1 5/16oz #5s ....



Could be wrong but I don't think those are 2-3/4" shells. I believe they are 3" loads.

Edit: Me bad.... The original post was for any 20 gauge load. I was thinking of the post regarding 2-3/4" shells.


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## DonArkie (Feb 11, 2010)

wifes 20 ga. Charles Daly .550 Indian Creek w/ #7 Nitros
Stoeger 20 ga. O&U .550 Angle Port Tubes w/Winchester Supreme #6's


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

DonArkie said:


> ...
> Stoeger 20 ga. O&U .550 Angle Port Tubes w/Winchester Supreme #6's



How do you like the Stoeger? Is there much poi/poa difference between the upper and lower barrels?


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## J Gilbert (Feb 11, 2010)

returntoarchery said:


> How do you like the Stoeger? Is there much poi/poa difference between the upper and lower barrels?



That was going to be my question as well, my friend has one and it points very well but I haven't shot it, I've toyed with the idea of buying one to set up for turkey hunting but haven't made the jump yet


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## DonArkie (Feb 11, 2010)

it does pretty darn good. like any other over & under with a tight choke.


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

DonArkie said:


> it does pretty darn good. like any other over & under with a tight choke.



High poa for the upper and low poa for the lower?


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## Big7 (Feb 11, 2010)

Serious Question.. NOT a 

Why would anyone use a 20 ga. for turkey?
For ladies, youth or seniors, I can see it.

All the "hype" about big heavy loads and super chokes
even in 12 ga. The little 20ga seems to be lacking with me.

Just curious...


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

Because my 20 weighs less than 7 pounds and I can hardy tell it's on my shoulder even after a long day. It doesn't kick like a mule. And the same density pellet shot from a .410 to the 16" inch battery from an Iowa class battleship at the same velocity has the same energy on target. 100+ pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards is easily attainable even is a standard factory barrel. 200+ isn't out of the question. So way lug around more gun than necessary?


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## J Gilbert (Feb 11, 2010)

The reason for most of us using a 20 isn't the recoil, it's the weight of carrying it around all day.  It has as much killing power as a 12ga, because a #6 or #7 pellet hits just with the same force at 1100fps whether it's shot from a 20 or a 12 or even a 10ga, it just comes down to the amount of pellets in the shell itself.  Much the same as with the bigger bores, it's all about the pattern.  My 20ga 870 put 132 Hevi shot 7's in a 10" circle at 40 yards on a day with less than perfect weather, and should do better than that on a nice day.  That's better than most 12's with standard lead shot and a good turkey choke, without the kick/weight/shell cost. That doesn't even hold a candle to what's capable with Nitro's through a 20, but either way it's a very formidable turkey gun out to as far as anyone should be shooting at birds.


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## Big7 (Feb 11, 2010)

returntoarchery said:


> Because my 20 weighs less than 7 pounds and I can hardy tell it's on my shoulder even after a long day. It doesn't kick like a mule. And the same density pellet shot from a .410 to the 16" inch battery from an Iowa class battleship at the same velocity has the same energy on target. 100+ pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards is easily attainable even is an standard factory barrel. 200+ isn't out of the question. So way lug around more gun than necessary?



Sounds like you walk a lot more than I do..
Your post makes sense though. A dead bird is a 
dead bird...

I have a youth mod. 870 in 20ga. with 3" chamber.
Mostly hunt rabbit and is my back-up dove gun
because of the reasons you stated..
You can run dogs all day with that thing and it won't wear you out.
I might give that a try on turkey just to put a new twist on things..


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

timbawolf98 said:


> The reason for most of us using a 20 isn't the recoil, it's the weight of carrying it around all day.



Ditto. 

The lower recoil is just an added benefit. Although my Ithaca M37 Featherlight does have a rather snappy recoil with 3" 1-1/2oz magnums.


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

Big7 said:


> Sounds like you walk a lot more than I do..
> Your post makes sense though. A dead bird is a
> dead bird...
> 
> ...




I do. I go as deep into WMAs as I can. I also don't have a 4x4 or atv so I have  to rely on my size 10s. 

Get you a Rem Super Full choke and some Fed HW #7. That seems to be the best bang for the buck with the 20ga 870. Put a Pure Gold .555 and Nitro #7 and you'll be approaching 20 ga Nirvana and be in the MKW cult.


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## J Gilbert (Feb 11, 2010)

I'm with RTA, I spend a good bit of time walking.  And you already know how sweet it is to carry the little 20 instead of a bigger, heavier 12, if you spend a few days afield with it this spring you could be hooked


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## returntoarchery (Feb 11, 2010)

rcf1968 said:


> where can i get some of fed.heavy weights at?




I found a couple places that had them in stock but they are mighty proud of them at $22 for 5. Most of the other places like midwayusa, graf & sons, ableammo, etc. that are out of stock have them listed for about $17. If you can choke down, pun intended, that price, I'll see if I can round up those links.


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## DonArkie (Feb 15, 2010)

returntoarchery said:


> High poa for the upper and low poa for the lower?


to be honest I never checked them. I wish I could tell ya. It kills them dead with the bottom barrel. Thats the one that fires 1st. 
now you have me thing


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## DonArkie (Feb 15, 2010)

Big7 said:


> Serious Question.. NOT a
> 
> Why would anyone use a 20 ga. for turkey?
> For ladies, youth or seniors, I can see it.
> ...



I've seen some 20 ga.'s shoot better than some 12's.  My wife has one that is very,very very impressive 20. 

I know this is "only 35 yards" but theres 342 #7's in that 10" circle.  





she was shooting off hand too. The shot was a tad low. If it was bag in & at 40 yards it still would be very impressive.




Charles Daly Youth 20ga. pump


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## returntoarchery (Feb 15, 2010)

nice.


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## trkyhntr70 (Feb 15, 2010)

Hey Don, What #7's are you guys shootin??


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## DonArkie (Feb 15, 2010)

Nitro's 7's
her barrel has some work done to it.


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## TDB (Feb 16, 2010)

beasley said:


> winchester #4s with a undertaker in my youth model remington 870 is very deadly!



x2!


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## rcf1968 (Feb 16, 2010)

thanks for the answer guys.now another question what are the nitro shells?


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## returntoarchery (Feb 16, 2010)

rcf1968 said:


> thanks for the answer guys.now another question what are the nitro shells?



http://www.nitrocompany.com/index.htm

And


http://www.wingsupply.com/shop/Scripts/default.asp

At Wing Supply do a search on nitro.


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## dtala (Feb 16, 2010)

If yer gonna shoot a 20, then by all means get some Nitros, my wifes gun will put 200+ pellets in a 10" circle at 40 yards. 3" 4-5-7 triplex loads. You might miss one thats close but you will not cripple any birds.

  troy


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## rcf1968 (Feb 16, 2010)

thanks for reply.


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## trkyhntr70 (Mar 5, 2010)

If anyones intrested I have some Nitro 20 Ga.  str. 7's qty 9(5) that I will trade for some of the Federal heavyweight 7's.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 5, 2010)

Dang if I had more than 9 left I'd trade you as I've been wanting to try the Nitros and I'll be in Waynesboro Sunday. After testing a different choke Saturday I'll be down to 5.


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## J Gilbert (Mar 5, 2010)

trkyhunter I wish I had some HW 7's to trade you, you still looking to offload those H13 7's


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## trkyhntr70 (Mar 5, 2010)

timbawolf98 said:


> trkyhunter I wish I had some HW 7's to trade you, you still looking to offload those H13 7's



Hey Buddy,
Sorry but the hevi 7s are gone.. From what Ive seen it looks like the Dunns duck loads are better than the hevi 7s.


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## The Arrow Guru (Mar 5, 2010)

I have a little NEF Pardner 20 that I set up for my girls. I got the gun new for $130. I had the forcing cone lenghtened and had it drilled and tapped for a weaver rail. I put a red dot on it and jumped on 4 boxes of the 1.5 oz Hevi loads from Dunn's. I put a Carlson's extended, (non-ported) tukey choke in it and it is throwing some really impressive patterns. The only day I shot it at forty yards it was 40 degrees and had 20 mph winds, so not very good day. I am going to shoot it agina when the weather is better and will post the results. I believe with a little investment, a 20 can be every bit as effective as a 12. Having said that, I like my 3.5 inch 835 cannon!


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## iloveturkies (Mar 6, 2010)

why wood you shoot a pee shooter
my ithica 12 gauge is has wounded several turkiesat 35 yards so i dont thank you need to use a 20 gauge
the 20 gauge bullets dont have no where nearly enough bbs to do the job
most times girls and young kids shoot 20 guages  and my dad shoot one when he got reel old in his old age
he had arthur reel bad into his shoulder and couldin take the pain from the big kick
he had to let the turkies get up close too around 10 yards for a better kill shot
1 good thing is that the 20 gauge bullets are cheaper than 12  gauge because the are smaller and easier too make
i wouldnt even recomend 20 gauge diamond shots from kent eventough they are some of the best bullets that cabelas sell


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## returntoarchery (Mar 6, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> why wood you shoot a pee shooter
> my ithica 12 gauge is has wounded several turkiesat 35 yards so i dont thank you need to use a 20 gauge
> the 20 gauge bullets dont have no where nearly enough bbs to do the job
> most times girls and young kids shoot 20 guages  and my dad shoot one when he got reel old in his old age
> ...




Obviously you haven't done or don't know how to test patterns and tune your choke and loads to achieve optimum pattern densities if you're wounding birds with a 12 gauge. All for us that shoot the so called "pee shooter" have pattern pellet counts of 130+ to over 200 in a 10" circle at 40 yards. Definitely sufficient to smoke any tom that walks to face of the earth at 40 yards. Not only that but the pellets of the same density/mass shot at the same speed from a .410 to a 10 ga will have the same energy on target. So effectiveness of the shot from a 20 gauge isn't an issue either.

You might want to do a little research and work to determine why you're having such a problem with your gun/choke/load setups before making any determinations and pronouncements (implied) that others that shoot anything less than a 12 gauge are needlessly wounding and not recovering birds. As for why we pee shooters carry one? Just search GON and oldgobbler.com and you'll find plenty of reasons.

Oh yeah. From my testing, I wouldn't shoot Kent Diamond Shot turkey loads past 25 yards. If that's what you're wounding birds with at 35 yards then that might be part of your problem. HeviShot Hevi-13 are the best turkey loads Cabela's currently sells. Definitely not the Kent's although they are a bargain if you keep your shots under 25-30 yards. 


BTW: If that 12 gauge Ithaca you tote is a Model 37 then nice gun. IMHO not a better pump shotgun made. Sorry 870 owners as I tote a M37 myself and I have both.



edit by rta: The tone of my message here is too brazen, uncivil, and pretty much uncalled for. I've apologized to iloveturkies in subsequent posts and do so publicly here. The tone of this post does not serve me or the 20 gauge shooters well.


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## short stop (Mar 6, 2010)

Im  using  some  3''   20 s  T9   or  T8s ..     
  I m getting   266  pellet  counts  inside 10'' at 40 yards ...
 Ive used 20 ga   for turkeys  for   nearly  30 yrs .. 
Ive  killed  my share   and  never once  felt handicapped or  underguned ......


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## J Gilbert (Mar 6, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> Hey Buddy,
> Sorry but the hevi 7s are gone.. From what Ive seen it looks like the Dunns duck loads are better than the hevi 7s.



Alright, I figured that might be the case, I've got a box and a half left still and almost 5 boxes of the Dunn's loads as well.  The H13 shells gave me 20-25 more hits in the 10", but that being said I still had 150 pellets in the 10" from the Dunn's loads and that'll definitely get the job done


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## iloveturkies (Mar 6, 2010)

thinks for the advise returntooarchery
i looked in cabelas for the IMHO loads that you recomendid and i coudnt find them
can you tell me were you got them
im sorry that i made you mad mister
i was just triing to help some one that was new to hunting turkey
i have picked up every bird ive hit so i dont thank my pattern is a problem if i was missing alot it wood be different
i dont care too much for you accused me of being dum
i dint say i was a expert gun shooter
you shoudnt talk down on people just because they get thangs rong
not every body is a expert like you are


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## iloveturkies (Mar 6, 2010)

plus mister returntooarchery i am pretty sure that a 20 gauge turkey loads want hold 200 pellets in 1 bullet
thats why i used a 12 gauge


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## J Gilbert (Mar 6, 2010)

The loads Im using have well over 200 pellets in them And Im quite sure it would throw a better pattern than your 12ga at any distance from what you've said in your posts


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## short stop (Mar 6, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> plus mister returntooarchery i am pretty sure that a 20 gauge turkey loads want hold 200 pellets in 1 bullet
> thats why i used a 12 gauge



  You  are way  off  on your  infomation .. you might want to   cut  up  a few and start counting  so  you will  know  instead of  just   guessing .. 

      You have to drop back  all the way to a #4  lead    to  get a pellet  count less than  200   in a  store bought  turkey  load in a 20  ga  . Just  for   kicks    I  just cut up  2 diff types of #4 s  and  got a  # 160   and a  #170  counts . 

 You  go any  higher     up to   #5 and  up   and    your pellet  count   exceeds   200+ ..
   my T9s  have   485     
    T 8      have  360
  with both these loads  I  put   250-270  pellets  on 10'' at 40  yrds ..


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## Dupree (Mar 6, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> plus mister returntooarchery i am pretty sure that a 20 gauge turkey loads want hold 200 pellets in 1 bullet
> thats why i used a 12 gauge



well when im putting 171 in a 10" circle at 40 with my 20, i know I have plenty of shot. 

Whats your pattern look like?


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## returntoarchery (Mar 6, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> thinks for the advise returntooarchery
> i looked in cabelas for the IMHO loads that you recomendid and i coudnt find them
> can you tell me were you got them
> im sorry that i made you mad mister
> ...



My apologies. Guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Sometimes my mouth though my keyboard gets ahead of my brain and civility. 

Just strikes me the wrong way when the 20 ga is said to be less effective than a 12 gauge when that in fact isn't always the case or to say it's only a woman's or girl's or old folk's gauge. It doesn't matter if you shoot a 12 ga 3-1/2" 2-1/4oz #6 if it can't keep 100 in a 10" circle at 40 yards because a 20 ga 3" 1-1/2 HW #7 (same mass a #6 lead) with 130+ in 10" at 40 yards is just as effective if not more effective.  So what you've done, less so with a Model 37 Featherlight 12ga, is have more weight to lug around, more recoil and muzzle blast that many times least to flinching and poor accuracy. 

Yep the Cabelas web page pretty much shows they are out of 12ga Hevi-13. They are in the catalog. If you're Ithaca 12 ga isn't a 3" mag, I'll concede at least your situation the Hevi-13 isn't an option from Cabelas.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 6, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> plus mister returntooarchery i am pretty sure that a 20 gauge turkey loads want hold 200 pellets in 1 bullet
> thats why i used a 12 gauge



hum.... let's see.

Kent Ultimate turkey 12 ga 2-3/4" 1-5/8oz #6 lead should have 366 pellets.

Federal Heavyweight Turkey 20 ga 3" 1-1/2oz #7 HTL (15 g/cc) same mass as lead #6 should have 449 pellets. 

Edit: since Fed HW is more dense than lead there should be somewhere around 329 pellets in a 1-1/2oz load. Still over 200 and a good half or more with the right choke combo will be in a 10" circle at 40 yards. I've never got over 46 lead #6 in a 10" circle a 40 yards.

sources: 

http://www.guncustomizing.com/tech.htm#stdshot &

http://www.kentgamebore.com/ultimate_turkey.asp

1-1/4oz #6 has 281 pellets.

Hum.. I'm kinda confused as to why a 20 gauge has less shot than a 12 gauge and is less effective. 


BTW: If I had more than 5 of the Fed HW #7 shells and they weren't so dang scarce, I'd cut on open and count the pellets.


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## Dupree (Mar 6, 2010)

i have 10 of the FHW #7 20 loads, but there too valuable in loaded form to cut one open!


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## iloveturkies (Mar 6, 2010)

no one ever told me were too find the imho loads cabelas doesnt have them
i guess that you guys dont belive what i am saying about the loads i use
idont have the money to buy expencive  bullets too hunt with plus mine work good and i said that before
please dont try to act like you know every thang just so that other guys cant believe you
i am only triing to help people that hadnt ever hunted before and i didnt expect peolpe to give me a bunch of stories
sorry i tried hortonhunter


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## returntoarchery (Mar 6, 2010)

Since you asked. Cabela's Spring Turkey 2010 catalog page 45.

If you have a 12 ga 3",

Hevishot Hevi-13 12 ga 3" 2oz

shot / order code
#4 / 679
# 5 / 681
# 6 / 683

They might seem expensive but will out pattern most any lead load.

As for helping folks there's no problem here with me. No doubt your experience with 12 ga & 20 ga guns is different than others. But definitely not representative of every 20 gauge.
Not trying to say I or any of the other 20 gauge shoots know everything but I point out things as I see them.

As I said before my apology for my previous message that was indeed too brash, uncivil and for the most part uncalled for. 

Have a good season.


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## iloveturkies (Mar 7, 2010)

i couldnt a ford those bullets
how much are the imho bullets and were can i get them
thanks for your help returnooarchey


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## Dupree (Mar 7, 2010)

imho is short for "in my honest opinion"


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## returntoarchery (Mar 7, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> how much are the imho bullets and were can i get them



I was a little slow on the update on that one.  lemme see if I can whip up a batch fer ya but I afraid they're only offered in 20 gauge.  Brand name is Incredible Mojo Hunting Ordnance    And if you have to ask how much they cost then you can't afford them.


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## BIGSteve (Mar 7, 2010)

NITRO #7's!


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## returntoarchery (Mar 7, 2010)

BIGSteve said:


> NITRO #7's!



Even those are out of my price range.


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## iloveturkies (Mar 7, 2010)

finaly thanks returntooarchery
it is ok with me on the price because my grandaghteris huntin with my papas old 20 guage this year rip papa stuckey
my son delivers mail and makes good money every hour
do you reload the bullets you self
thanks for the help


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## returntoarchery (Mar 8, 2010)

iloveturkies said:


> my son delivers mail and makes good money every hour



uh oh. insurance company says we's kain't sell to no USPS worker as the liability is too high in case theys goes postal using IMHO bullets.  

Guess you's out of luck and gonna have to keep using them Kent bullets.


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## mauser64 (Mar 8, 2010)




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## returntoarchery (Mar 8, 2010)

mauser64 said:


>



I think we's joking around now.


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## mauser64 (Mar 8, 2010)

I read ya


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## iloveturkies (Mar 13, 2010)

retuntoarchery
my phone line has been down for money reasons
i dont like how you pick on me and i want talk with you on her any more 
i see that you was jokin about the imho bullets and i dont like your adatude
for you information i was in a car reck and i have touble with my typing  
find some body else too picckon from now


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## returntoarchery (Mar 14, 2010)

iloveturkies. pm sent.


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## Public Land Prowler (Mar 14, 2010)

howl said:


> Win Supreme 1 5/16oz #5s through a Truglo Gobble-Stopper Xtreme works to forty.



That's what works in my boys 870 20ga youth model.He took several birds with it so far,and a nice tom at 45yds last year.I bought him a kicks .560 to see how it does.

I'm just not all into the pellet count.who cares if you get 500 #7's in a 10" circle aqt 40yds,when 40 #5's will kill the same bird,and penetrate better.Shooting paper is nice,but when you start talking bones,and feathers you have to have the pentration.What would you consider max range for a #7 hevi to fully penetrate a gobblers body,wings,neck,and head?

#7 hevi should have the energy of a 6 lead,and there is no way I would shoot it real far,especially 55yds+Just because you get 100 pellets at 65yds in a 10" circle,that does not mean that pellet has enough energy to kill that bird cleanly.Thats why year after year more people dust birds at long range,they are falling into this pellet count idea,and not considering pellet energy.

OK..rip me apart..


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## returntoarchery (Mar 14, 2010)

PLP. 

Not a rip. but what matters most for energy is mass/density of the projectile and it's velocity at the target and the down range velocity is affected by the ballistic coefficient of the projectile. The smaller shot if the same mass will have a smaller frontal area and retain more velocity down range in addition the smaller frontal are enhances penetration as there's less resistance. 

You have to talk apples to apples with comparing shot size and HTL heavier than lead shot vs lead. The only time you get a smaller shot size to equal a size larger in lead is if the HTL is at least 15 g/cc which the Fed HW and TSS shot are.  If we're talking about Hevi 12 and 13 then nope a #6 is not the same mass as a number #5 and I wouldn't expect or say the #6 will as effective as the #5 lead, or a #7 HTL to #6 lead, except in the pattern density.

I believe the saying that HEVI shot or HTL are equal to 2 shot sizes larger of Lead comes from the waterfowl hunting community as it is true that HTL shot, depending of the particular density, has more mass than 1 to 2 shot larger of steel shot. In that case the HTL/Hevi shot will have more down range energy and penetration. This in my view has been unintentionally miss applied to the HTL/Hevi shot vs lead.

Where the HTL/Hevi shot really comes into play for turkey hunting as general rule  is they deform less and produce better patterns. 

Here are a couple links to take a look at. 

http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,15475.0.html

http://www.thepatterningboard.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=reference&action=display&thread=13

Edit: fixed links.


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## Public Land Prowler (Mar 14, 2010)

In your own personal opinion..What is the max range for this load?At what distance would you say you should not even consider shooting it at a turkey?50,60,70yds?

both of your links didnt work.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 14, 2010)

There are varying opinions as to what criteria should be used to determine the maximum range. Personally I let pattern density determine the max range for me as that falls off before the available energy does. Some folks go by the 100 in a 10" circle at a specific range as the maximum range be it 20, 30, 40 or more yards.

I just refreshed my memory from one of my reference books written by a noted expert in turkeys and turkey hunting - one that has spent his entire professional life studying, managing and conserving turkeys.
His view after examining thousands of harvested turkeys is that pattern density is more important than velocity. That your maximum range should be determined by which yardage you can consistently, from shell to shell, keep at least 5 pellets in the kill zone of the standard size turkey target.  He talks specifically about a cripple zone where the pattern density falls below this which is normally associated with bigger shot sizes with lower shot pellets for load.

So for me I've limited my max range to 40 yards  as I consistently get 130+ in a 10" circle of which my kill zone hits exceeds the "5 min" by 3-4  fold.

I personally don't advocate the use of HTL shot as a justification for taking turkeys at excessive ranges such as those that you mention.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 14, 2010)

But for me specifically the use of Fed HW (15 g/cc) #7 has extended my effective range by 10 yard while having essentially the on target energy as number #6 lead.

Here are my counts at 40 yards in a 10" circle.

Fed HW 1-1/2oz #7  - 133, 132, & 138

Fed Mag-Shok Lead 1-5/16oz #5 - 46

Kent Diamond Shot 1-1/4oz #6 - 46

Winchester #5 and #4 mag load were not worth counting maybe 20 at the most.

To get 100 in a 10" circle with #6 lead I have to drop down to 30 yards or under. 

So all I'm saying is with careful pattern tests, load and choke selection, with the right HTL density shot, you can extend your effective range. It's up to you to determine what your maximum range you feel is ethical.


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## Public Land Prowler (Mar 14, 2010)

I understand where you are coming from,but IMO 5 #7 pellets wont kill a  bird at 70yds.Just injure him.Not enough energy.5 #4 leads will though.

When exiting the muzzle at 1,300 fps, a No. 7 Heavyweight pellet delivers 2.58 ft-lbs of energy at forty yards compared to 2.07 ft-lbs and 2.91 ft-lbs, respectively, for No. 6 and No. 5 lead pellets.(Might a make a point here most #7 heavyweights arent exiting the barrel at 1300fps according to what I have read)

A number 4 at 40yds has nearly 5ftlb of energy..according to the chart I found(wish I had a better chart)



> It has been estimated, which is about as close as you can really get, that it takes about 2.5 foot lbs. of energy to penetrate a turkey's head and neck with your pellet reliably.



http://www.chuckhawks.com/patterning_turkey_loads.htm

So I wouldnt shoot a number 7 heavyweight more than about 40yds,because it doesnt have enough energy to cleanly take the bird.All these pellet counts dont mean anything if it will not penetrate.

Might as well load up 2 1/4 oz shot of #9's and shoot them 90yds since you would still be getting 40 pellets in the kill zone..lol..Penetration..That's where it's at..That's the difference between a bird rolling and flying away at 60yds,or flopping dead at 65yd with #4's...and my gun will do it. 

One more article...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/federal_20gauge_heavyweight_turkey_load.htm


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## returntoarchery (Mar 14, 2010)

We're in agreement. A HTL #7 even at 15 g/cc is has less mass than a #5 or #4 lead shot and at the same velocity will definitely not have have the same on target per shot energy at any yardage. 

As for the #5/#4 at 70 yards killing turkeys, that assuming you've got a pattern density that shot after shot puts 5 pellets in the kill zone other wise you're in the cripple  zone.


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## trkyhntr70 (Mar 14, 2010)

Take a look at these charts:
The Fedreal Hwt. #7 in 20Ga. is an 1160 fps. load, It has near the energy of the #5 lead at 40 yards but actually has better penetration, all the way to 60 yards. 
I did a comparison myself on 1/8th inch plywood with the Fed. # 7's and Lead #4's at forty yards.
The lead merely lodged in the plywood and the Federal Hwt's at 1300 fps ( 12 Ga. ) completely penetrated the board.
http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,21805.0.html

Heres a larger penetration comparison that Hal done that had 15g. tungsten, same as the Fed. Hwts. included.
http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,28868.0.html
http://www.chuckhawks.com/federal_20gauge_heavyweight_turkey_load.htm


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## striper commander (Mar 14, 2010)

My cousin and some of his friends did some shooting this weekend and I let him shoot one of my federal HW7's at 1300 FPS and the pellets went completely through the boards on the top of a pallet we were shooting at. He tried a winchester extended range 6 shot next on a different part of the pallet and only about five pellets went through the wood. And I think those loads are around 1300 FPS also. Next shot was #6 2 1/4oz lead none of them went through the wood. He did get 117 pellets in a ten inch circle with them though which I thought was real good for lead.


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## mauser64 (Mar 15, 2010)

300mag said:


> My cousin and some of his friends did some shooting this weekend and I let him shoot one of my federal HW7's at 1300 FPS and the pellets went completely through the boards on the top of a pallet we were shooting at. He tried a winchester extended range 6 shot next on a different part of the pallet and only about five pellets went through the wood. And I think those loads are around 1300 FPS also. Next shot was #6 2 1/4oz lead none of them went through the wood. He did get 117 pellets in a ten inch circle with them though which I thought was real good for lead.



I got the same results with the hw7s. Shot several different loads using sections of 1/4" plywood to mount the paper on. The 5 & 6 copper plated shot were embedded in the wood at 30 & 40 yds, many of the hw7s went through and both ranges.


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## BIGSteve (Mar 15, 2010)

Thank the Lord a turkeys skull ain't 1/4in thick!But it's good to know at those ranges and further the loads will do the job nicely!


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## hawglips (Mar 15, 2010)

returntoarchery said:


> We're in agreement. A HTL #7 even at 15 g/cc is has less mass than a #5 or #4 lead shot and at the same velocity will definitely not have have the same on target per shot energy at any yardage.



A lead #4 may have more mass and energy, but the energy it carries gets wasted and dissapated over a wider area upon impact, and therefore doesn't do as much damage to what it hits.  The HWT 7s concentrate their energy into a smaller area, and will break bones better and penetrate deeper than the lead 4s or 5s.

This has been measurably demonstrated many times over by guys doing penetration comparison tests on tin, boards, and phone books.


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## hawglips (Mar 15, 2010)

Public Land Prowler said:


> So I wouldnt shoot a number 7 heavyweight more than about 40yds,because it doesnt have enough energy to cleanly take the bird.All these pellet counts dont mean anything if it will not penetrate.



A Heavyweight #7 is a much more long range pellet, and will penetrate much better than a larger manly sized #5 or #4 lead pellet will.

This is fact.  

Only guys who do not know, and have never gone to the trouble to actually do some head to head comparisons will say otherwise.

It's simply a matter of physics.  It's not kinetic energy that determines penetration, but it's kinetic energy divided by the cross sectional area of the pellet.


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## Public Land Prowler (Mar 15, 2010)

trkyhntr70 said:


> Take a look at these charts:
> The Fedreal Hwt. #7 in 20Ga. is an 1160 fps. load, It has near the energy of the #5 lead at 40 yards but actually has better penetration, all the way to 60 yards.
> I did a comparison myself on 1/8th inch plywood with the Fed. # 7's and Lead #4's at forty yards.
> The lead merely lodged in the plywood and the Federal Hwt's at 1300 fps ( 12 Ga. ) completely penetrated the board.
> ...



Hey man you're suposed to be my friend..lol..So you are telling me this is a 60yd load in 12ga?Hands down...What about the 20ga?50yds max?


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## hawglips (Mar 16, 2010)

Public Land Prowler said:


> Hey man you're suposed to be my friend..lol..So you are telling me this is a 60yd load in 12ga?Hands down...What about the 20ga?50yds max?



The #7 HWT pellets at 1300fps will out penetrate lead 4s or 5s by a very wide margin.  The lead 4s and 5s are not even in the same league as far as penetration goes. 

Therefore, I'd say HWT 7s have more than enough kill in them at 60 yds -- if the pattern is sufficient.  Their only limiting factor at that range is pattern density.  Most folks I've seen are getting 140-170 in a 10" circle at 40 yds with the 20 ga shell.  That would probably give you 110-120 at 50 yds.   And that's should be a sufficient pattern with those pellets to kill a turkey every time you put the center of the pattern on his head and neck.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 16, 2010)

Just a small point for clarification. Federal list the 20 ga HW PHT258F #6 & #7 at 1100 fps. The Fed HW 12 gauge is 1300 fps. 

In either case a load of #7 15 g/cc will be heap good medicine for an old thunder chicken.


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## Public Land Prowler (Mar 16, 2010)

hawglips said:


> The #7 HWT pellets at 1300fps will out penetrate lead 4s or 5s by a very wide margin.  The lead 4s and 5s are not even in the same league as far as penetration goes.
> 
> Therefore, I'd say HWT 7s have more than enough kill in them at 60 yds -- if the pattern is sufficient.  Their only limiting factor at that range is pattern density.  Most folks I've seen are getting 140-170 in a 10" circle at 40 yds with the 20 ga shell.  That would probably give you 110-120 at 50 yds.   And that's should be a sufficient pattern with those pellets to kill a turkey every time you put the center of the pattern on his head and neck.


Thanks..lol..Bc my whole point is you can kill them at those ranges with #4's in your 3.5 12ga(and another 5yds beyond),and 3" 1 5/16oz HV #5's in the 20ga can kill them at 50yds as I have seen with my own eyes,so whats all the hype for?..lol


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## Gadget (Mar 16, 2010)

Public Land Prowler said:


> Hey man you're suposed to be my friend..lol..So you are telling me this is a 60yd load in 12ga?Hands down...What about the 20ga?50yds max?




Randolf, I can tell you I handloaded some heavyweight TS15 shot for a friend of mine this year. It's sold as #8 pellets but mic's out to .094 which is basically size 7.5. This load was chronographed by me at only 1076 and 1083fps out of my SBE2 with 24" barrel. 

My friend has a confirmed kill at a measured 58yds with my load this year. I'm the one who went back with my rangefinder and checked it. The shot went through two palmetto frawns and some other brush before hitting the bird. He estimated the yardage at between 40 and 50yds when he took the shot, he was 10-15 yds off in his estimation, this is the reason I always preach about leaving yourself a buffer with whatever load your shooting. If your gun, choke, load combo is only good to 40 then you should limit your shots to an estimated 30yds to give yourself a buffer.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 16, 2010)

Public Land Prowler said:


> Thanks..lol..Bc my whole point is you can kill them at those ranges with #4's in your 3.5 12ga(and another 5yds beyond),and 3" 1 5/16oz HV #5's in the 20ga can kill them at 50yds as I have seen with my own eyes,so whats all the hype for?..lol



probably because most 20's can't pattern #5 in a sufficiently dense enough pattern at 50 yards to insure enough hits in the kill zone. Mine won't as I'm lucky to get 46 in a 10" circle at 40 yards with the 3" 1 5/16oz HV #5 loads. With the HTL shot of 15 g/cc density you can get pattern densities up there with the smaller shot size but not loose much if any on the energy / penetration side compared to some lead shot sizes. 

The whole point of going with a 20 gauge is it doesn't wear you out after totting it all day like some of the 12 ga cannons do.  The added benefit is there's less recoil which can lead to improved accuracy by minimizing the  tendency to flinch.


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## Public Land Prowler (Mar 17, 2010)

OK Gadget thanks.If you say it will do it.I believe it.  I do agree on the yardage error thing.I have done it many times myself.I though birds were 50-55,and they were 60-65yds.



returntoarchery said:


> probably because most 20's can't pattern #5 in a sufficiently dense enough pattern at 50 yards to insure enough hits in the kill zone. Mine won't as I'm lucky to get 46 in a 10" circle at 40 yards with the 3" 1 5/16oz HV #5 loads. With the HTL shot of 15 g/cc density you can get pattern densities up there with the smaller shot size but not loose much if any on the energy / penetration side compared to some lead shot sizes.
> 
> The whole point of going with a 20 gauge is it doesn't wear you out after totting it all day like some of the 12 ga cannons do.  The added benefit is there's less recoil which can lead to improved accuracy by minimizing the  tendency to flinch.


I know my sons 870 20ga with truglo GSX and #' win 1 5/16" HV #5's throws an impressive killing pattern.I was VERY suprised by it.I would honestly call it a 40yd gun,but it has taken a bird at 48yds.I just got him a kicks .560 in today,and plan on shooting the 1 5/16oz,and 1 1/4oz wincheste loads.I'll do the 10" circle count.I have always done a 30" circle count.


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## returntoarchery (Mar 17, 2010)

Yep PLP those Rem 870 20's are pretty impressive. Really the best value going in a 20 ga IMO.

It'll be interesting to see what your counts are with that choke and loads.


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## trkyhntr70 (Mar 17, 2010)

Public Land Prowler said:


> Hey man you're suposed to be my friend..lol..So you are telling me this is a 60yd load in 12ga?Hands down...What about the 20ga?50yds max?



Hey Randolph,
Brother you know Im your friend, reguardless of any turkey load, calls or anything else. I dont share them public osceola spots with just anyone ya know.


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