# Bulldogs



## bigmike82

Hi all. As its named, this thread is about bulldogs. I've been studying, researching, owning, shoveling up after and for a lack of better term living bulldogs of all types for the past 15 or so years of my life. It started back when I was 12, and got my first exposure to bulldogs via the American Bulldog, specifically Lichthardts Marley Alskling. After meeting her I was hooked. I grew up in Chicago, more specifically 10 minutes west of the Sears tower straight down I290 in a city called Bellwood. Anyways, I was so depserate to quench my thirst for knowledge on bulldogs I literally would walk block to block looking for people who had anything resembling an AB or Pit and would offer up walking them or cleaning up after them just to get some hands on time with the dogs and give me a chance to have some conversations concerning the dogs. In doing so, I only actually made things worse because the more I learned, the more I wanted to learn and know. I started to write letters to breeders in magazines, buy kennel videos, and literally drive my parents up the walls. In my conquests, I've met some of the finest AB and APBT dogmen and women and dogs, and some of the worst. I've also learned a lot of the "trade secrets" like the meaning of a lugosi dog, the value of EB and EBT blood, and a lot about all the bulldogs and bull n terriers. 

I told you all that to drive home the point to my actual question here. As of late, say 7-10 yrs the name White English has been popping up and I had never heard of it before, and the dog men and women in my circle of friends hadn't either. I have been reading all kinds of "history" and "facts" concerning this breed of dog, and it just is not adding up. I'm seeing info saying they range from 55lbs up to 140lbs, are the direct descendant of the extinct aluant and is the prototype to the AB, APBT and many other breeds. Reports say they are hidden in pockets of the florida panhandle, backwoods of georgia and alabama and now up in ohio. I have a few theories about all of this but I figured id come to a place where the people are from these areas, use bulldogs and cur dogs to make their livings and I'm searching for honest to god truth and real knowledge. Is this a real thing or is it just a way for breeders to sell excess pups and dogs? If they are real, what are they really like tempermentally and physically? Any and all information is appreciated ladies and gentlemen.

Thanks in advance

Mike


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## Cur'n Plott Man

If you have researched then you do see a true breed of Eng. Bull. They are mostly pure white and I have not every seen or heard of one over 75 lbs. I personally have had 2 before with 1 being solid white with blue eyes and the other having only one small black spot on it's head. Both were about 65 lbs. I now have AB and Pitts and I would say that they were more like AB other than I could not get mine to ever like their jaws ! Another words they would bite but let go of a hog. They would not hold him. There is Eng. Bulls all over the south so you should not have any problem in finding one. And you also have a different breed that's named Olde Eng. Bulls. They are short legged and used for show an pets.


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## bigmike82

Now I'm not talking about the AKC version called the English Bulldog, not the Mack Truck dog. I've seen and had my hands on many of them. I'm talking about a breed called White English, Ole Southern White, Carr White English or Hills Bull. I know about the Olde English Bulldogge as well and have seen and had my hands on many of them as well. Interesting note though about the dogs biting but not holding. Me and a friend were discussing a cross dog type called Florida Cur that can look like a bulldog but act like the cur dogs, and also look like Cur dogs and act like bulldogs. Thank you for bringing that up.


Mike


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## Cur'n Plott Man

Yes, I was meaning the White Eng. but their are some breeder's in Fl. that have Fla. cur's and Ole Southern Swamp cur's . The Swamp cur's are only bread bye a very few people and they are bigger style dogs for mainly catching. They are bread for more stamina than your average bulls have and don't let go for no reason ! If one of the fella's from down that way reads this then they can probably tell you who to contact.


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## Boar Buster Line

(quote)I now have AB and Pitts and I would say that they were more like AB other than I could not get mine to ever like their jaws ! Another words they would bite but let go of a hog. They would not hold him. 

I agree 100% they arent any good to me as catch dogs, I have had a couple and got rid of them as pets cuz i could see them getting somone hurt in the woods. Nothing better than the bite of a pitbull


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## wildhogs2000

I live in Alabama and know a little about the breed but don't care for them to much.  Here is a website you can go to that will tell you just about anything you want to know about the breed W.E.B.  *http://www.bttbab.com/*.  I have friends that have them and try to use them for catching hogs but just don't do what they should, they double bit.  I have seen some avarage size and I have seen some around 100lbs.  Great looking dogs but would not personnaly own one for hog hunting.


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## baybranch02

When i was growing up in the late 70s and early 80s a white bulldog with brindle markings or a solid white bull was always called a white english. They were usually 50-80 lbs, i never knew them to be registered by any association and i still see some today but now its mostly pits in the south ga area. I remember hunting in the mid 80s as a kid on the Ocmulgee river and in Clinch co and thats the only catch dog anybody used. I think that line of dog got bred in with all these pits and the true gamey white english is a thing of the past. The ones i see today that ive tried to make catch werent any good and would not catch and lock. This is just my personal knowledge dont claim to be an expert by any means.


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## Ranger

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/w/whiteenglishbulldog.htm
This should help


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## bigmike82

Thank you guys very much for the input. I really am after any and all firsthand knowledge and experience of any kind I can get. I've been to bttbab many times and I must say IMO there are way too many holes and misguided info in the "historical facts" and self serving quotes from books for me to get on board based on the info there. I'm not trying to slam them or anyone else, but I believe in first hand knowledge and experience over paintings, tiny excerpts from books and the ability to sway ones words to serve someones agenda, if there is one. 

Thanks Again

Mike


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## hoghunter102

My buddy got a olde english bulldog gave to him, and he tryed it as a catch dog while i was up there hunting with him. The dogs was trying to catch the hog, and half butt catchin it but he got real excited and jumped up and bit my friend. Well to make a long story short my buddy kicked him and the dog went to the hog, and the stupid dog went down to the hog. Sorta chewed/licked the hog the hog threw all the dogs and smacked into the dog the dog ran and shortly after the dogs caught and we tie up every thing and walked back to the truck and the dog was under the truck he didn't go hog huntin agin but my friend was nice to him and found him a person who wanted him as a pet. So there for i will not use nothing besides a pit bull. I love the breed been raised around them, owned my own sence i was like 10 ,and the good thing about them about 8 outa 10 will catch. I might have a AB but it has to be the sporty looking breed of AB the ones that sorta have the looks like a pitt.


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## rage

the white english dogs had been in my family over 50yrs..my grandpapa had them on his farm and my daddy still got the same bloodline.they are very laid back and loves kids but they are very good guard dogs of their yard.they are very smart..back 20 yrs ago that is all we caught with was a big male around 75lb..they are good size but still can get around..if i have time i will take some pics over the weekend and post them of some of ours..aint never heard of many of them being register..


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## Carolina Diesel

What goin on Gin house see ur viewin


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## UGA hunter

Don't know about a lot about the White English but I've got an Olde English that will catch on the ear and HOLD. He's by no means a woods dog but he's got the instinct, drive, and heart to do it. He's trained for other sport/work as well. I've seen a lot of standard AB's that are great catch dogs!


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## bigmike82

Yeah the OEB was created based on EB x APBT by Mr. Leavitt. Seeing as the original cross was very easy to repeat, every tom dick and harry started to become breeders and totally putting the screwing on all the hard work David Leavitt had done. That being the case he changed the name of his breed, now known as Leavitt Bulldogge, started a registry, has a board of directors and in order for you to be a breeder of Leavitt dogs, they must be approved. We now have the Able bulldog, renesence or gargoyle bulldog, and about 50 different variations now without any real knowledge of dogs, genettics or care for the actual stock being used in creating all these new breeds, so who really knows what their getting when they buy and "olde english bulldogge" anymore.

Rage,
I would love to talk to you about your families stock, pass around some theories I have concerning them and what not. If you don't mind I'm game for keeping it here or we can go to private message concerning it.

Again, thanks to everyone for all the input and keep it coming!

Mike


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## hoghunter102

Why pravite messages i'd like to here more about them as well?


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## bigmike82

I only suggested private incase he/she didn't want names being dropped and such. I'm all for a public discussion.


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## UGA hunter

I can discuss OEB's as much as you want. I know people all over the country with every bit of the blood you talked about and I've had a little of it myself. I can get you to the people to talk standard AB's all you want. I don't know anything about the White English though. I'd like to hear more about them as well.


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## bigmike82

Well... in all honesty, the best way this is going to get goin is for those of you who want to read up on them to be able to formulate theories and ideas and what not, go to the white english bulldog preservation society's website, read through all of what that website has to say, and see if you find holes in it or buy it. Then we can get to the nitty gritty of it all. I am still hoping to get some input by Rage and anyone else who may have something to say about it before really spilling out what I think to be true based on everything I have been told by some well known dog men and many of the conversations I've had with fellow bulldoggers. I'm not in anyway trying to come off as some knowitall or like a kid with a toy everyone wants to see and not sharing because I want peopleto be able to take everything said by me and other people and educate themselves and make up their own minds.

Hope that's ok

Keepem workin


Mike


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## baybranch02

I went to the WEB website to look and some of the dogs look to me like what ive always called a white english. Some of the dogs look to short nosed, the ones i remember had more of a pit looking head and muzzle. In the last couple of years the AB,old southern and white english have been bunched together as "one of them white bulldogs" it seems by the hunters. I would like to hear your theory Big Mike.


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## hoghunter102

Mike i like the dogs in ur avatar what are they?and the white one looks like the ab i like.


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## crackercurr21

idk much about them i am trying to learn about dogs and breeding and line breeding and such but i know of a guy named sarge not sure of real name but lived just outside gainesville fl and he had what he called swamp cur it was a almost pure white dog with very bullish figure and attitiude with cur dog drive heart and stamina. his kennel name was "almost home kennels" if anyone has info on sarge please pm me


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## MULE

Bulldogs, that's just what they were called in the Southeast. People started realizing there was money to be made in Registering and creating new breeds. That's when you seen American bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, White English Bulldog ect and ect. 

Alapaha Blue Bloods and Bully Pits are some of the newest creations. The Alapaha Blue Bloods already have a ridiculous story. In about 20 years there will be some stupid --- story about how the Bully Pits was found in someones family and they were the only ones that had it.


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## bigmike82

Hoghunter,
They are my old dogs, now both deceased. The female(red) is the mother to the white one, out of applegates vader red x kouras whoopie the pooh. Good first bulldogs.

Crackercur,
Thank you for bringing up Sarge. Tomorrow I will get into my take on the ab, web and the whole lot.


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## bigmike82

MULE said:


> Bulldogs, that's just what they were called in the Southeast. People started realizing there was money to be made in Registering and creating new breeds. That's when you seen American bulldogs, Olde English Bulldogge, White English Bulldog ect and ect.



Thank you so much for bringing this up, it needed to be brought up again.


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## bigmike82

Ok, here goes it. I apologize now for it being so long winded.

I do not buy the claims that their is an actual breed of bulldog called the White English bulldog, and here is why. First and foremost, it has already been said here it was just a generic name for any buldog type dog with a brindle body and white head or white body. I dont buy it because, as already stated here, people realized how easy it was to make a $ by creating new names for everyday things, coming up with fake and romantic histories AND it is very easy with a ittle know how, to make any breed of dog already in existance, and ill prove it. 

I do not believe the history that goes with the web being the direct descendant of the now extinct alaunt. The alaunt is an extinct running mastiff. It was supposedly brought here by the spanish and english hundreds of years ago, and have been instrumental in the WEB. The fact that they went extinct over 150yr ago leads me to believe this is false. The claim is backed by the WEBs ability to open its mouth wider than other dogs and that is a trait of the alaunt blood, and it went along with this picture 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



 The claim that the WEB has been kept pure without the infusion of other breeds in small pockets on the florida panhandle, georgia and alabamas back woods, and now up in ohio doesnt make sense, because there would have to have been a very large population of these dogs to be able to sustain a healthy population. I find it funny that people on the florida panhandle, backwoods of geogia and alabama and ohio havent heard of them if they are so prevelant and so great of a dog. I also find it extremely coincidental that when the AB's popularity and sales started to diminish, the new extremely old and pure WEB started to take hold. Also, just about all of these breeders who have the supposed WEB aso keep AB and APBT at the same time. That in itself shows me that these claims of the supposed superiority of these dogs to be false, otherwise there woud be no need for these breeders to keep more than just the WEB, unless they are in it for the money. I also find it very suspect that these early settlers would take a dog who could potentially hit the 100lb mark due to sheer logical constraints. How could the dirt poor homesteaders and trailblazers have afforded to spend what little money they had or take extra time and effort to feed such a big dog, when the family itself was struggling to eat. Why would they take 1 dog with 1 set of teeth, ears and eyes when they could have taken 2 or even 3 of the smaller and much more useful and efficient Cur type or hound type dogs, who could not only hunt down and dispatch quarry, would guard the home and family with serious conviction, and 3 of the smaller dogs having more teeth, eyes and ears would still live longer, eat less and be able to work harder making life easier on the homesteaders. Not only that, they could reproduce the working dogs that helped them so much because they had mutiple dogs, instead of having to shell out some money or trade some goods for another single dog. These WEB are supposed to be all around farm style working dog, yet by many accounts they have to be taught to bite and HOLD, which doesnt constitute a bulldog in my mind. They are supposed to be catch dogs par none, yet they arent holding and preferring to bay the quarry. They are supposed to be able to dispatch an adversary as a slashing kill dog, but if it wont commit to a bite or to the fight yet more comfortable to bay or bark, they cant bark an enemy to death. Bulldogs are not slashing dogs who bite and rebite, but hounds and curs are. People say they are purest when they have little or no coloring and have blue eyes. Well, that in itself is false, because bulldogs were ALWAYS brindle, fawn or dark colored dogs. It wasnt until the White English TERRIER was infused to the blood and then bred upon and inbred on, that the white started to take over. White, as you may or may not know, is simply a marking, like a chest or face blaze, that kept expanding over generations and consumes the body, and leaves only a patch or saddle of color. In reality, a dog with a color patch and majority is white, is actually a colored dog with a white marking. These supposed WEB are suposed to be family guardians, yet many of these sites say things along the lines of "show me a southern farmer who walks arond in scratch pants, and then ill believe the WEB was bred to be a family guardian". How can a dog who is supposed to take on all manner of threat when facing its family who doesn have human aggression or not supposed to have human aggression, be a family guardian? I have been told by some WEB people you need special tools to TEACH the WEB HOW to bite..... how to bite.... That goes against everything that a bulldog is. I should have to teach a bulldog to NOT bite everything in its path of vision. I am perfectly fine teaching a bulldog where to bite or how to target, but to have to teach a bulldog it is not only ok to use its jaws, but how, does not set well at all. 

Here is what I honestly think these WEB realy are. Nothing but excess dogs breeders have and needed to sell. Dogs, like has already been stated, are of no special breeding or consequence and just got a handle by the people keeing them. I believe as member here has stated, were just any white or brindle and white bulldog type dog running around the farms and woods. I believe many of these WEB are nothing more than PIT or AB cross dogs, and here is why. A member here brought Mr Sarge who created the swamp cur. He created it using Bull Mastiff, Catahoula cur, APBT and AB. I have a friend who went to Sarges with his cousin to get a dog and then noticed these huge white bulldog looking dogs, asked sarge what they were, said they were swamp curs. Needless to say they passed on the deal and werent impressed with the swamp curs cuz yould get bulldog looking dogs whod bay, cur lookin dogs whod catch and everything inbetween. Now, i mentioned that to talk about the "georgia giant" strain of WEB talked about on bttbab. Those dogs are supposedly LGD(livestock guardian dogs) directly descended from Spanish Mastiffs. What I really believe happened is, Sarge sold his Swamp Curs to some unsuspecting people fr $100 or $150 and they grew up, were bred and selected for certain traits, most noticed is size, and what is said to happen is they have thicker fur, feathering on the tail and rear legs and excessive dew lap reacing 140lbs. Johnson ABs have continuous addition of St Bernard(which would account for the thicker fur and feathering) English and Bullmastiff(accountig for the massive bone index, head size and dew lap) and alsoLGD like Great Pyreneese by sheer dumb luck of farm dogs breeding to whoever they like. Breed that kind of  dog to another mastiff, which was the Bull Mastiff used by Sarge, and these strong genes are now being doubled and tripled up on. The Catahoula and APBT genes seem to have been washed out and a white giant dog resembling a bulldog was made. Nothing ancient or unexplainable happened there. That brings me to how they are wrong about the bulldogs being LGD. True LGD have little to no contact with the human handlers, live exclusively with the flock, bonding to the animals they are entrusted to guard. With that comes a need for minimal to an absence of prey drive. Bulldogs have prey drive coming out of every orrifice. How can a dog who is bred to catch and chase game all of a sudden lose those instincts and be safe to be left unsupervised with sheep or stock of all ages, sizes and health extremes and NOT try and catch and kill it? Also, LGD will not leave the flock to fight, meaning they wont go past a certain distance that they have decided is a safe zone. A bulldog wil NOT stop or turn away from a fight, especially on his own accord and not tethered. These people take pictures of bulldogs lookig out into a field or checking out some chickens behind a fence and say its an LGD. No, its strictly a farm dog doing farm dog things. That explains the LGD or Georgia Giant. As far as the other types, they honestly seem like other breeders culls based on the descriptions and variance of type. I mean, any bulldogger worth his or her salt wouldt keep a bulldog who didnt have the bulldogs conviction, meaning willingness to do what is asked of him till the bitter end. The descriptios of these WEB not biting and holding, typewriter mouthed, baying is NOT Bulldog or running Mastiff traits but Cur or Hound traits. You can get 10 pictures of WEB and none will look the same. Some are straight APBT crosses, AB crosses, random bred mutt from who knows where but they look the part and no parental history is actualy known or the truth isnt given, and bam you now have the oldest more pure stock out there. Slashing bulldog? ad: 

Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls. Breedsknown to work bulls, apbt, ab, eb, mastiffs, shepherds, rottweilers, boxers, cattle dogs, collies...... Dogs known to be in the south that came in white or brindle and white, APBT, AST, SBT, AB, Boxer, St Bernard, EB, Great Dane..... All serious dogs back in the day, all were readily available in the south and all were and still are interbred. Here is where the making a bulldog comes into play
St bernard X Bull Mastiff





Bull Mastiff X Boxer





EB x APBT





APBT x Malinois





EB x Dogo





staffordshire Bull Terrier X AB





EB x Boxer





The next series is ALL Boxers,note the colors and head and body shapes.

















This is a Boxer from a dog show in 1957 Russia













How hard would it have been to call any one of the dogs I showed here bulldogs, and even WEB cuz they fit the profie of colors, size and variance. The size variance, tepmeramentand type variance PROVES it is not a breed or even a type that WEB is just a name used to describe a bullog looking dog in the south. 

If Im wrong im wrong and I'll admit it, but its gonna take some serious convincing with real proof to show otherwise.

I appologize if I came off as a know it all or blowhard, not my intention. Im just really trying to get to the bottomw of this, and im quite tired of the "factual history" swaying unknowing public.

Mike


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## MULE

You ain't scared to type are you?


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## bigmike82

MULE said:


> You ain't scared to type are you?



Nope. Not when its concerning bulldogs. You should here some of the conversations I've had this past week with my buddy Scott about just that, bulldogs. Like I said I'm sorry its so long winded, but I'm of the opinion of thuroughness is better than assumptions. If you ever want to talk to me on the phone send me a message with your number and ill call you up. I wish I had the means to just come on down there for a year or 2 and just go around seeing all kinds of bulldogs work and breeding yards and meet you guys in the flesh. Till I can, phones and emails is the best I can do.


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## rage

*bulldog*

what kinda dog u call this?


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## Cur'n Plott Man

Looks like White English to me !!  And as far as the true Mastiff dog, it dates back way beyond any spanish blood.  The original Mastiff was used by roman gladiator's in their battles against lions and tigers. The dog was known to have weighed up to nearly 400 lbs !! This is where ALL bulldog blood originated. The last and closes DNA of this dog thats still living is the Cane Corso. And there are plenty of WHITE ENGLISH BULLDOGS in the south. Everything has been crossed one time or another to make a certain breed thats why we have Mastiff's all the way down to Boston terrier's.


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## WolfPack

This is where AKC comes in.....it helps buff out the kinks and "stabilize" the breed if ya get my drift.  It isn't 100% foul proof but it does help keep it real.


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## bigmike82

Rage, 
Id call them bulldogs. I assume you're going to say they are WEB from your families strain. If so, thanks for sharing some pictures. If they are your families dogs, can you pleaase share some info about them? Any and all would be great.

Curr n Plott man, 
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.


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## Cur'n Plott Man

Curr n Plott man, 
400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.[/QUOTE]

I have a ALL BREEDS book that my wife picked up at a Pet World that has this description in it.


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## barnetmill

I know I am resurrecting and an old thread, but I am able to answer some of the OP's questions about white english dogs since I have two of them.  Note they were generally not called bulldogs and likely the name White English predates the way the term is now used.  Bulldog say about a century and half ago was more commonly used for dogs that fought bulls and also I suppose that would work with cattle.  Many cur dogs and many bulldogs and some White English will throw an unruly bovine, usually by grabbing an ear, but will not bait them.  The baiting bulldogs, attacked tending to try and pin the bull by his nose, the same way a wolf would do it.
I am in northwest Florida between Pensacola and Milton, FL and in the late 80's and early 90's the elder locals would talk about the White English, most notably its temperament.  They were meant to guard livestock, kids, chickens and what have you in your yard or farm.  The key thing is that it takes more to trip their attack switch compared to many other guarding breeds and they also turnoff very quickly.  
Origins: The name white english goes back to at least 1870's, but by the mid-19th century there were no such dogs in England that still resembled them.  Some people think they were named after the extinct shepherds mastiffs that was likely still about in the late 18 th century England.  The shepherds mastiffs tended to white as is the great Pyrenees which is a long-haired shepherds mastiff.  Dogs were likely ancestral to the WE type were transported to the Americas meaning from Terra de fuego to the US atlantic coast by first the spanish, then  French, and the English.  There were a lot of different dogs of Mastiff/alaunt/alano/wolf hound types brought here, especially to the "La Florida" area that includes Georgia, Alabama, Florida, and Louisiana.  These dogs were bred and selected to make working dogs.  
Different localities had their own types of dogs.  There were kill dogs like the fila and cuban blood hounds to catch slaves, brindle and red bulldogs (have lower threshold to attack), and the white english type.  
One of my dogs does definitely have some old shepherds mastiff in her.  Her father was in the 130 lb range and had rear dew claws that are still seen in some alpine mastiffs.  Right now my Memphis is a long thin dog that is gaining wt with big shoulders and big head.  She is now 75lbs and I expect here to make 85 and perhaps more.  One of her litter mates (Missy in California, owner flew in to Memphis, rented a car to get to northern MS) is 60 lbs and Media still retained by Ray Lane the breeder  is in the 80 lbs range or bigger now.  The point is most lines of these dogs are not really pure and can throw all sizes and a good variation of proportions.  Some females can be less than 50 lbs.  The muzzles should between 3 and 4 inches and show no sign of "old english bulldog/pug" influence.  Coat can be totally white or have some red, red brown, or black patches depending on the locality.  Some color is preferred since the all white dogs often throw blue eyes and deafness.  Also they have more problems reacting to flea bites and such.
Many of them are not good catch dogs and you will risk your life if you use them to hold a hog while you tie the backlegs.  They often let go once the hog stops resisting.    
To be a white english it must never growl at its master over anything including food.  If it does or snaps at a child it should die.  It should have a lot of common sense. 

There are very few breeders breeding white english dogs and there are great personality differences amongst those that do.  
Many of what WE still exists has been interbred with the newer American Bulldog stock that often has a very different behavior, notably a lot more drive and may display dominance to human members of the family and a lot of dog aggression.  The point is as a country dog people have bred these dogs as they see fit and so finding dogs with the original behavior and that are also healthy is a task.  White English are not common now in my area and I am not even sure if they exist here anymore.
I went on the net a few years ago once I relocated back to florida and started to look for WE or White English and came across Heather Wilkins and Ray Lanes' postings and they described what I have been told by people about WE 15-20 years earlier.  
Eventually Josh W.of Dixie, Georgia sent me a female on hay truck that his father was driving to pensacola that was really not completely suitable behavior wise for his breeding program, but still a very good dog.  She is too friendly and to much for a WE.  She likes to climb on my lap and barks to demand attention.  She came from a cross with a WE dog from Alabama and one of Josh's Georgia WE.  The mother of Ginger, Julie was recently bred and sent off to hog hunter near by.  Josh says that Julie will catch and has a lot of drive.  Julie is also too aggressive for his breeding program (She bit someone at three months of age) while her daughter Ginger was too friendly.  Ginger will act aggressively to towards human intruders, especially if Memphis my other dog initiates it.  Memphis being a mixture of Georgia Giant and the Carr type dogs is true Old WE in behavior.  Her only faults is that she is extremely territorial and possessive of bones and such.  She does not like to share, but then what dogs do?  She shows no dog aggression, distinguishes between my neighbors and strangers, and is laid back, but ready to react to anything that she does not understand.  Alerts to snakes, but does not attack (Neither does Ginger), important if you want your dog to survive in the south.  Neither of these dogs can open their mouths to 180 degrees like their grandmother Dixie could do.  I saw Dixie at the age of 13 do it and it is hard to believe.  Dixie died at almost 14 years of age and IIRC threw her last litter of pups at about 12 years of age.  At 13 yrs when I saw her her, breeding did not take.

I am willing to answer any question to the best of my ability.  If Memphis continues to do well likely I will breed her when she reaches about 2 yrs of age.  I need to talk to Josh, Heather, and Ray about that when the time comes since they are the ones with suitable males for my Memphis.


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## Crispy

Funny that I got a notice for this thread today as I just recently got an American Bulldog. His name is Bronco and he is a hybrid. His father is of Johnson lineage and the mother is Scott. Here is a pic of him at four weeks. Right now he is five weeks old and I still have to wait three weeks before I can bring him home. I can't wait!


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## barnetmill

Nice picture of an American Bulldog pup with an interesting eyepatch.  I am trying to load a picture to this forum of my two pups last winter in the snow in NWFL of all places.  Picture is Jan 29 2014.  Ginger is the one with the color and a much younger Memphis is almost all white except for a little color on her noggin which is identical to her grandmother dixie.    
My first attempt to post a photo:   129-14DSCF0140 - Copy.jpg (204.4 KB)


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## Crispy

Thank you. He's the only pup that had the large patch over the eye. The father has the same patch.

Nice picture and great looking dogs. I seem to remember there being some snow in Fl. last year. Didn't reach me in Chiefland though.

Thanks for posting the picture.


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## Crispy

Barnetmill, 

I noticed you are in fl. so thought I would mention that the lady that I got the pup from has six more if you know someone looking for one. The parents are good looking dogs and registered. It's also their first litter.


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## barnetmill

Crispy said:


> Thank you. He's the only pup that had the large patch over the eye. The father has the same patch.
> 
> Nice picture and great looking dogs. I seem to remember there being some snow in Fl. last year. Didn't reach me in Chiefland though.
> 
> Thanks for posting the picture.


I will keep the availability of pups in mind.  The presence of some color is also a good thing to have in American Bulldogs since some of them are prone to the same genetic problems with blue eyes and deafness as the WE.  The georgia WE were used as foundation stock by JD Johnson and also likely by Scott too.  Johnson added a lot of other dogs to his mix and from what I understand now there are even different lines of american bulldogs with some being closer to the WE and those that are closer are likely to be the ones that can end up with blue eyes and deafness.  Heather, Ray, and Josh are trying to breed those WE dogs that have some red or red brown in them since besides avoiding deafness this also results in better skin health.  
In the foto the dogs are cousins, but have very different builds.  Ginger has the pit rear end and Memphis has a rear more typical of a mastiff or alano.


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## Crispy

barnetmill said:


> I will keep the availability of pups in mind.  The presence of some color is also a good thing to have in American Bulldogs since some of them are prone to the same genetic problems with blue eyes and deafness as the WE.  The georgia WE were used as foundation stock by JD Johnson and also likely by Scott too.  Johnson added a lot of other dogs to his mix and from what I understand now there are even different lines of american bulldogs with some being closer to the WE and those that are closer are likely to be the ones that can end up with blue eyes and deafness.  Heather, Ray, and Josh are trying to breed those WE dogs that have some red or red brown in them since besides avoiding deafness this also results in better skin health.
> In the foto the dogs are cousins, but have very different builds.  Ginger has the pit rear end and Memphis has a rear more typical of a mastiff or alano.


Interesting. Thanks for the information. 

All but one of the pups are white with a little black in them but very little. There is one solid white female. 

One fault of the father is that he has one grey eye. She said grey but maybe it is actually blue? I did verify that my pup can hear as I had read about the chance for deafness.

If I remember correctly, the lady said that one of the parents is from the Orlando area and the other is from Georgia.


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## barnetmill

Some duties of old WE are to guard everything that the master owns.  That includes chickens and even the outside cats.  
The white Memphis has generally been best for that.  She likes to run over to my little cat and sniff it.  The cat runs away with the dog's nose under her tail in terror.  But Memphis will not hurt it and I call her back when she does that.  Ginger just plain does not like the cat, but has been taught not to attack it.  
I obtained a test rooster since i plan to eventually raise chickens.  Memphis was cool with the rooster initially.  Ginger had to be taught not to pin it down.  I was very hard on her, but she got the idea that she was not to chase the chicken and pin it.  All was going well until Memphis caught the rooster in the dog house and it took two weeks to stop her from punishing and persecuting that rooster.  Memphis being very territorial would tolerate the other dog Ginger in the dog house, but not the rooster.  She was punishing it with small non-lethal bites.  The Rooster was terrified.  I punished (corrected is the better term) Memphis and now she is leaving the Rooster alone.  I can when ready get some hens and let the dogs do their jobs.  It is obvious that the dogs and Chickens cannot share the same small yard and very soon I will fence my  acreage allowing the chickens and dogs to have different territories.  The job of the dogs is to run off coyotes , foxes, and what have you that may invade my place.  If hogs show up the job of these dogs is to kill or drive them off and not to hold them.  Holding is not really  in their job description.  And *they are not bulldogs.*  True old WE are really more like small mastiffs and primarily protective in function.


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## Scrapy

This is a quote from a previous thread.  " Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls."

Also, ( I am not a bulldog historian nor had much to do with them since I was a child) The recipe for making a treedog/coondog  when I was a kid was 1/4 bird, 1/4 bull and half hound. In the 1950s till today,  my uncle,  and now my cousin owns about 500 acres of "higher ground" and about three thousand acres of swamp you cannot walk across. No way. You can swim and skid along but you cannot walk. They plant greens patches in Fall and the herd comes out in winter to graze. The stock yard man brings his catahoulas and catch dogs and my uncle had a  couple of bulldogs and they would get after them and make them get in a pen. Then they would make them load in a trailer.  His bulldogs were brown brindle with white markings. They did not catch an ear, they caught a nose on a bull. How did they know a bull from a cow?  

I had a small fox pen across from my house to train running pups in on fox. Then somebody turned acouple of wild pigs in it and wanted to start hog dog pups. They chased the around like foxes and caught most out but left two in.  I carried a three legged dog that would twig on deer and look at me and then go around and jump the deer back at me. And I had a 20 lb fiest that would not tree a lick. So we went walking in the hog pen and the three legged dog started twigging and looking at me and the fiest came running. Sure enough, a pig jumped out from beneath a top and they caught it in 50 yards . Neither had ever seen a pig, but both had an ear and held on. Now you tell me how a dog just knows where to grab and what to do automatically?????


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## barnetmill

Scrapy said:


> This is a quote from a previous thread.  " Now, Bulldog is a very generic term, it literaly means dog who works with bulls."
> 
> Also, ( I am not a bulldog historian nor had much to do with them since I was a child) *The recipe for making a treedog/coondog  when I was a kid was 1/4 bird, 1/4 bull and half hound.* In the 1950s till today,  my uncle,  and now my cousin owns about 500 acres of "higher ground" and about three thousand acres of swamp you cannot walk across. No way. You can swim and skid along but you cannot walk. They plant greens patches in Fall and the herd comes out in winter to graze. The stock yard man brings his catahoulas and catch dogs and my uncle had a  couple of bulldogs and they would get after them and make them get in a pen. Then they would make them load in a trailer.  His bulldogs were brown brindle with white markings. They did not catch an ear, they caught a nose on a bull. How did they know a bull from a cow?
> 
> I had a small fox pen across from my house to train running pups in on fox. Then somebody turned acouple of wild pigs in it and wanted to start hog dog pups. They chased the around like foxes and caught most out but left two in.  I carried a three legged dog that would twig on deer and look at me and then go around and jump the deer back at me. And I had a 20 lb fiest that would not tree a lick. So we went walking in the hog pen and the three legged dog started twigging and looking at me and the fiest came running. Sure enough, a pig jumped out from beneath a top and they caught it in 50 yards . Neither had ever seen a pig, but both had an ear and held on. Now you tell me how a dog just knows where to grab and what to do automatically?????



I also am not an authority, but you have lot of the best kind of knowledge since you speak of what you have seen.  

One thing that reduced the amount of the old bulldog and also WE stock is that they were cross-breed with other dogs to make superior hybrids.  The first generation cross is quite good, but further crosses of the first generation cross are not that predictable.  Everyone from pit dog fighters to cattlemen had their favorite crosses.


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## Crispy

After reading this whole thread, I now feel like an idiot for hijacking it. 
I didn't realize the true content of it. I thought that it was just a plain old show your Bulldog thread. Sorry about that and thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.


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## barnetmill

Crispy said:


> After reading this whole thread, I now feel like an idiot for hijacking it.
> I didn't realize the true content of it. I thought that it was just a plain old show your Bulldog thread. Sorry about that and thanks for a very interesting and informative thread.


Since the OP was looking into the WE, the American Bulldog is a part of that story and needs to be mentioned.  This is an old thread and the OP has not yet offered any more information or questions.  
Then you have the  Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog which has a bit of controversy about it and is a part of the WE story.  There are very strong differences of opinion about its origin.  But the real important question for a dog owner is how good was the kennel that produced their particular bulldog and whether it was in the beginning a chance cross between a WE and a Catahoula or not is maybe not so important.  
Here is one version of the Alapaha story:  Mars Hill Kennels  >  A Brief History of the Alapaha Blue-Blood Bulldog  see:  http://www.oldsouthernbulldogs.com/news/a-brief-history-of-the-alapaha-blue-blood-bulldog/
Lana did suffer serious burns from a house fire.  


> On Tuesday morning, April 28, 1992, Ms. Lane was in her home, when it caught fire. As a result of that fire, Ms. Lane’s Foundation sire, "Lana’s Marcelle Lane", ARF Reg. No.: ABBB12M, died, and, Ms. Lane was badly burned [3rd degree burns over 30% of her body]. From that day forward, Ms. Lane was under a doctor’s care, for she suffered a great deal from her burns and disfigurement. To help relieve her pain, her doctor prescribed pain pills, as well as other prescription drugs, that affected her memory and attitude towards others. As a result of her memory loss,......


  I have been told by one breeder that the fire was not an accident and that someone that she had mistreated set the fire.  Lana was quite controversial, but the line of dogs that she bred still remains today.  Crossing catahoulas into bulldogs has been done before and obviously a lot people like the result.  And like I said the Alapaha blue blood bulldog is also part of the WE story.  


> the afore-mentioned bulldog that Ms. Lane saved, to the best of our research, contains canine genes coming from the early "Colonial American Bulldog" [which is the original "American Bulldog" or "Old English White", that was brought to America by the 17th century colonists], and other "Old World Canine Genes", that make up today’s "American Pit Bull" and "Catahoula Leopard". However, it’s the dominate "Colonial American Bulldog" gene that makes this dog so great; but, needless-to-say, it is the recessive gene colors of the "American Pit Bull" and "Catahoula Leopard" that add to the dog’s beauty. You can see these recessive colors appear in her "Blue Merle" & "Silver Dollar" Alapahas".


Heather Wilkins says about the same as the above ancestry of the Alapaha.  
 Marker R. Nicholas Sr., was Lana's Trainer and has a several lines of Bulldog.  If you want another view on southern bulldogs and WE see this link:  http://975918329886551044.weebly.com/about-us.html

Of course do not fail to read Heather's website at:  http://oweps.weebly.com/the-carr-white-english.html
While I do not like to type that much I thought another view was needed to this thread and this may be more than most really want to know about the WE.


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## barnetmill

Cur'n Plott Man said:


> Curr n Plott man,
> 400lbs? Golly that's a lot bigger than even the early descriptions of Tibetan Mastiffs being big as pony's with 14 inch long muzzles. Where did you hear or read that? Id love to see it just to have another referrence point.





> I have a* ALL BREEDS book that my wife picked up at a Pet World* that has this description in it


.[/QUOTE]
Many books and also much internet material is full of misinformation.  
When possible personal experience, reliable documents,  or that of people that are reliable is the best source especially when talking about american dogs derived from "Mastiff types sources".  Some things will likely never be proven to the satisfaction of scientific scrutiny.  For instance I can not tell the origins of or even define what a pitbull is.  Plenty is written on it and a lot of it is contradictory.  What I can say is we know when properly bred they make some of the best dogs a man could have for everything from hog hunting to be a personal playmate and protector of a child.  Companion for children is shown by by the dog (Actually dogs) on the "Little Rascals" which was a pit bull.  see:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_the_Pup


> was an American Staffordshire Terrier character in Hal Roach's Our Gang comedies (later known as The Little Rascals) during the 1930s. Otherwise known as "Pete, the Dog With the Ring Around His Eye", or simply "Petey"


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## AllAmerican

Great research,  I feel the same.  Good write up!


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## Unclesump

I sure hate to revive such an old thread but I'm hoping Rage will see this and comment. Rage the two pictures you posted to this thread, can you tell me those dogs names please sir? I believe I have a female out  of your family's old line of white English. Again sorry to revive such an old thread.


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## holton27596

Happily the white english is still around here. I grew up with them, never seen one with short legs. almost all the farms had them. very intelligent and good hog dogs. They are getting harder to find. they originally came up from st augustine. very intelligent and very protective of children. Ive seen a few that would run around 100 pounds or so.


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## Unclesump

Yes sir they sure are! Very different temperament from most American bulldogs and pits. There seems to be more of them still around in Georgia than here in Al. I got my girl from Ga. pretty positive that my girl comes from the line of dogs Rage's family raised. Which is why I was hoping he would see my post and comment. I'd like to talk to him.


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## eddevelasco

My Alanos are used for catching hogs with my Plotts. All my Alanos are from Spain from the best hunting stock. These dogs trace back to the 3rd century when they were brought by the Alani tribe. These dogs have been documented with my family since at least the 1300's. They were also brought with ancestors from my family to Cuba, Florida, and Louisiana on military expeditions and to settle in the 1600's. My family brought Alanos not Mastifs. In the 1980's a group of Alano aficionados brought back the breed to decent numbers by rounding up the best old blood stock that was still being used in the northern mountains to catch and hold the wild cattle. I have a great historical article written more than a century ago from English Bulldog experts that the English  Bull dog orginated from their importation of Alanos. There is also a great research book recently published in Spain that has all the old breeds as they describe the history of the Alano and all the breeds that came from them.


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## eddevelasco

Interesting historical article 1901.
1901 I am happy to take an opportunity of exhibiting the
interest I take in Bulldog subjects by bringing to your
readers' notice a most valuable discovery made by my
old friend Mr. John Proctor, of Antwerp. He and I have for many years had the honor to appear in the character of English judges at the Paris Dog Show. No feature in this delightful exhibition has more in- terest for us as Britons than the classes which remind us of our national breed, the Bulldog. It is my belief that the Bulldog is but one member of the important family of the Molussus, which is recognizable by the truncated muzzle. I do not claim any originality for
this opinion, but I do admire myself for having the courage to brave the wrath of the home fancy by say- ing so. We have no generic name for this family, but
in France they are called Dogues, whence we get our own word dog, but we have corrupted the meaning of it. The heads of the group are the Spanish Bulldog, the dogue de Bordeaux, and the little toy oddities of Paris, bred and reared by Lutetian bootmakers, and lastly, the English Bulldog. It is clear to me as an unprejudiced eynologist, and entirely unaffected by what previous authorities have said on the subject, that the original home of the breed was Spain, where the dog was "made" for a special mission. The fair name of Spain always was, and still is, associated with sport in which the bull plays the leading role. The Spaniard fashioned a dog to suit this sport, with a firm strong body, stoutlegs, a short neck of powerful muscle, a big head with a wide mouth and prominent upturned underjaw, so that the dog could still breathe while re- taining his grip, and the weight would tire out the bull which was unable to fling off the dog. From Spain dogs of this kind migrated to France; it is only a short excursion to Bordeaux, where the services of the dog were in demand as fighting dogs and for dog and donkey contests. Then they traveled up to Paris which has always had an eye for the artistic, so they bantamized the breed to the modern Toy Bulldog. From France the breed came over to England, and with several other imported varieties, took their place among what modern writers describe as the indigenous breeds of Great Britain. This is a theory carefully thought out to suit those who maintain that the Bull- dog is a British product. Personally, I believe that the only breeds indigenous to the British Isles are the Irish and Scottish Terriers. In English history there Is no mention of the Bull- dog before the reign of Queen Elizabeth, and I find it quite easy to assume that at a period when the rela- tions between England and Spain were exceedingly strained, and Britannia's sea-dogs were plundering the Spanish coast and worrying their galleons, that among the loot were these doughty dogs. Certain it is that the sport of these animals would take the Virgin Queen's masculine fancy. It is unfortunate that though due credit has been accorded to the gallant knight who about the same time imported the potato, it is still unknown to England whether it was a Drake or a Frobisher, or which enterprising captain it was, who placed his country under a far greater obligation by bringing over from the enemy the animal which
has become our national dog. To approach a little closer the main object of this communication. When the late Mr. Frank Adcock many years ago stirred the Bulldog fancy to its depths by the introduction of the Spanish Bulldogs Toro and others, the English fancy turned upon him, and when he courageously put his dogs on the show bench he was told they were "inventions,
" no pure breed at all, but the result of a freakish experiment with Mastiffs, Bulldogs and perhaps other varieties. The unbelief and prejudice were so strong, and the literary onslaughts so violent, that nobody for years after attached any value to Mr. Adcock's claims, which were simply that his importations were—Bull- dogs. A long time after I had the good fortune to en- counter, in the Paris show, a magnificent class of dogs called the Dogues de Bordeaux; smaller than a Mastiff but more bulky, brown-red in color, mostly Dudleys, with Bulldog skulls, but the heads larger and more wrinkled; and to my mind these animals were plainly the Spanish Bulldog, or its first cousin. I boomed the variety in the Stock-Keeper, wh ose readers had never seen nor heard of them before, and the enterprising Messrs. Sam Woodiwiss and H. E. Brooke subsequently
imported a few fine specimens and showed them here. Our English fanciers just dropped short of heaving a brick at them, but those who had eyes to see, and were willing to see, recognized that they were in the pres- ence of the ancestors of the English Bulldog. We English are unwilling to be taught anything about
animals, and when I imported Toy Bulldogs from Paris my countrymen glanced askance at them until I found the dwarfs an English ancestor or two. As a matter of fact, I think the French Toys owe little or nothing to English descent, but I propitiated my critics. A French friend assured me that these dogs were called Boule-dogs from the round shape of the head, and that their owners did not know the word "bull" nor its meaning. Well, to return. I am quite
satisfied that the Bulldog owes its origin to Spain. Mr. Adcock 's importations date only some ten or fifteen years back, but if I can show that the Bulldog existed
in Spain in the early part of the seventeenth century it will, I suppose, support my contentions. When Mr. Proctor and I were in Paris last year my friend had the good fortune to obtain a most valuable piece of evidence on this point. He found an old bronze plaque. Everybody must admit that this is the head of a cropped
Bulldog—Spanish, Bordeaux or English is immaterial;; It is a Bulldog. The description above the head reads: Dogue De Burgos, Espagne. Burgos is the principal town of the province of Old Castile, in Spain, and was noted for the breeding of dogs used in the arena. The date is 1625, and the name of the artist "Cazalla." The appearance of tlie plaque indicates its age. and everything points to the probability of its being genuine. Anyhow, I give all the particulars, so that whoever cares to may make inquiries. Mr. Proctor purchased the medallion in Paris from Mons. A. Provandier, a well known breeder of Toy Bulldogs, who relates that he bought it one Sunday in the Paris Dog Market from a trainer of dogs who visited the market. This man stated that he had it from a bric-a-brac dealer in the Paris Gingerbread Fair, at which time there are always two or three thousand dealers in art ironwork and all sorts of such things, standing by their booths on the roadside. Mr". Proctor took his find to a connoisseur, who pronounced it authentic, and it was then that I decided, with the cwner's kind consent, to publish it in England for the benefit of the English Bulldog fancy, who cannot fail to recognize its historic value and to' acknowledge the light it throws upon a question which so violently agitated the kennel world when Mr. Adcock brought it forward. I am indeed happy in this wise to be able to hand down Mr. Proctor's name and my own to an appreciative Bulldog posterity.—George B. Krehl. honorary member of the Bulldog Club, In Stork-Keeper.


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## eddevelasco

If I could figure out how to post a picture I will post the article.


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## Unclesump

This is all very interesting!! I have long believed the the old southern brindle bulldog came over here through Cuba with the Spanish conquistadors! 
However it will take some more research on my part before I'm sold on the idea of the original bulldog of England actually coming from Spain Everything I've ever read about the origins of the original bulldog says it was descended from smaller white Alaina's and the bulldogs of France wee descended from the much larger mastif. This is good stuff though! Thank you for posting it!


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## grouper throat

I have seen Fla curs catch better than what some of these guys claim are white English. A catch dog that don't hold well is a disaster waiting to happen.


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## eddevelasco

I agree. I don't have the evidence but I believe some Florida curs have Spanish Alanos as ancestors. I know my family has been in Florida St. Augustine & Pensacola since they were Spanish possessions. They had Alanos in Florida.


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## Unclesump

grouper throat said:


> I have seen Fla curs catch better than what some of these guys claim are white English. A catch dog that don't hold well is a disaster waiting to happen.



Grouper throat you sound like you don't believe there is such a thing as a White English. However what you say about them catching hog is for the most part true.  Consider this before you turn your nose up at them, THEY WERE NEVER BRED TO BE A CATCH DOG. Fact of the matter is very few people or families ever had a any type of real breeding program. These were bred to be farm and utility dogs. That means they can catch, some better than others. Now if someone back in the day had took a notion to get the ones that excelled at catching and holding hogs and bred them like hog hunters do today, then you would have a generous amount of hog catching White English. Everyone knows the dogs that catch the best are the ones that have been bred for that


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## Donal

I have a pair of bulldogs that are about 18 months old and want to give them to someone that has room for them.  Grandchildren wanted these and played with them last year and have lost interest in the dogs and I have no where to keep them.   I between Ellaville and Americus.


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