# Are Catholics Born Again?



## Big7 (Jul 6, 2008)

Let's get some comments on this please.
I know it is lengthy - but it is all there! 

Are Catholics Born Again?


Catholics and Protestants agree that to be saved, you have to be born again. Jesus said so: "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3). 

When a Catholic says that he has been "born again," he refers to the transformation that God’s grace accomplished in him during baptism. Evangelical Protestants typically mean something quite different when they talk about being "born again." 

For an Evangelical, becoming "born again" often happens like this: He goes to a crusade or a revival where a minister delivers a sermon telling him of his need to be "born again." 

"If you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and believe he died for your sins, you’ll be born again!" says the preacher. So the gentleman makes "a decision for Christ" and at the altar call goes forward to be led in "the sinner’s prayer" by the minister. Then the minister tells all who prayed the sinner’s prayer that they have been saved—"born again." But is the minister right? Not according to the Bible. 


The Names of the New Birth



Regeneration (being "born again") is the transformation from death to life that occurs in our souls when we first come to God and are justified. He washes us clean of our sins and gives us a new nature, breaking the power of sin over us so that we will no longer be its slaves, but its enemies, who must fight it as part of the Christian life (cf. Rom. 6:1–22; Eph. 6:11–17). To understand the biblical teaching of being born again, we must understand the terms it uses to refer to this event. 

The term "born again" may not appear in the Bible. The Greek phrase often translated "born again" (gennatha anothen) occurs twice in the Bible—John 3:3 and 3:7—and there is a question of how it should be translated. The Greek word anothen sometimes can be translated "again," but in the New Testament, it most often means "from above." In the King James Version, the only two times it is translated "again" are in John 3:3 and 3:7; every other time it is given a different rendering. 

Another term is "regeneration." When referring to something that occurs in the life of an individual believer, it only appears in Titus 3:5. In other passages, the new birth phenomenon is also described as receiving new life (Rom. 6:4), receiving the circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29; Col. 2:11–12), and becoming a "new creation" (2 Cor. 5:17; Gal. 6:15). 


Regeneration in John 3



These different ways of talking about being "born again" describe effects of baptism, which Christ speaks of in John 3:5 as being "born of water and the Spirit." In Greek, this phrase is, literally, "born of water and Spirit," indicating one birth of water-and-Spirit, rather than "born of water and of the Spirit," as though it meant two different births—one birth of water and one birth of the Spirit. 

In the water-and-Spirit rebirth that takes place at baptism, the repentant sinner is transformed from a state of sin to the state of grace. Peter mentioned this transformation from sin to grace when he exhorted people to "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). 

The context of Jesus’ statements in John 3 makes it clear that he was referring to water baptism. Shortly before Jesus teaches Nicodemus about the necessity and regenerating effect of baptism, he himself was baptized by John the Baptist, and the circumstances are striking: Jesus goes down into the water, and as he is baptized, the heavens open, the Holy Spirit descends upon him in the form of a dove, and the voice of God the Father speaks from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son" (cf. Matt. 3:13–17; Mark 1:9–11; Luke 3:21–22; John 1:30–34). This scene gives us a graphic depiction of what happens at baptism: We are baptized with water, symbolizing our dying with Christ (Rom. 6:3) and our rising with Christ to the newness of life (Rom. 6:4–5); we receive the gift of sanctifying grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:13; Gal. 3:27); and we are adopted as God’s sons (Rom. 8:15–17). 

After our Lord’s teaching that it is necessary for salvation to be born from above by water and the Spirit (John 3:1–21), "Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized" (John 3:22). 

Then we have the witness of the early Church that John 3:5 refers to baptismal regeneration. This was universally recognized by the early Christians. The Church Fathers were unanimous in teaching this: 

In A.D. 151, Justin Martyr wrote, "As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true . . . are brought by us where there is water and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God the Father . . . and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit [Matt. 28:19], they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Unless you are born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61). 

Around 190, Irenaeus, the bishop of Lyons, wrote, "And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34). 

In the year 252, Cyprian, the bishop of Carthage, said that when those becoming Christians "receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God’ [John 3:5]" (Letters 71[72]:1). 

Augustine wrote, "From the time he [Jesus] said, ‘Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], and again, ‘He that loses his life for my sake shall find it’ [Matt. 10:39], no one becomes a member of Christ except it be either by baptism in Christ or death for Christ" (On the Soul and Its Origin 1:10 [A.D. 419]). 

Augustine also taught, "It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that infant is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, ‘Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents’ or ‘by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him,’ but, ‘Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit’ [John 3:5]. The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam" (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]). 


Regeneration in the New Testament



The truth that regeneration comes through baptism is confirmed elsewhere in the Bible. Paul reminds us in Titus 3:5 that God "saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit." 

Paul also said, "Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life" (Rom. 6:3–4). 

This teaching—that baptism unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection so that we might die to sin and receive new life—is a key part of Paul’s theology. In Colossians 2:11–13, he tells us, "In [Christ] you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision [of] Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ" (NIV). 


The Effects of Baptism



Often people miss the fact that baptism gives us new life/new birth because they have an impoverished view of the grace God gives us through baptism, which they think is a mere symbol. But Scripture is clear that baptism is much more than a mere symbol. 

In Acts 2:38, Peter tells us, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." When Paul was converted, he was told, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). 

Peter also said, "God’s patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water. Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:20–21). Peter says that, as in the time of the flood, when eight people were "saved through water," so for Christians, "*aptism . . . now saves you." It does not do so by the water’s physical action, but through the power of Jesus Christ’s resurrection, through baptism’s spiritual effects and the appeal we make to God to have our consciences cleansed. 

These verses showing the supernatural grace God bestows through baptism set the context for understanding the New Testament’s statements about receiving new life in the sacrament. 


Protestants on Regeneration



Martin Luther wrote in his Short Catechism that baptism "works the forgiveness of sins, delivers from death and the devil, and grants eternal life to all who believe." His recognition that the Bible teaches baptismal regeneration has been preserved by Lutherans and a few other Protestant denominations. Even some Baptists recognize that the biblical evidence demands the historic Christian teaching of baptismal regeneration. Notable individuals who recognized that Scripture teaches baptismal regeneration include Baptist theologians George R. Beasley-Murray and Dale Moody. 

Nevertheless, many Protestants have abandoned this biblical teaching, substituting man-made theories on regeneration. There are two main views held by those who deny the scriptural teaching that one is born again through baptism: the "Evangelical" view, common among Baptists, and the "Calvinist" view, common among Presbyterians. 

Evangelicals claim that one is born again at the first moment of faith in Christ. According to this theory, faith in Christ produces regeneration. The Calvinist position is the reverse: Regeneration precedes and produces faith in Christ. Calvinists (some of whom also call themselves Evangelicals) suppose that God "secretly" regenerates people, without their being aware of it, and this causes them to place their faith in Christ. 

To defend these theories, Evangelicals and Calvinists attempt to explain away the many unambiguous verses in the Bible that plainly teach baptismal regeneration. One strategy is to say that the water in John 3:5 refers not to baptism but to the amniotic fluid present at childbirth. The absurd 
implication of this view is that Jesus would have been saying, "You must be born of amniotic fluid and the Spirit." A check of the respected Protestant Greek lexicon, Kittel’s Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, fails to turn up any instances in ancient, Septuagint or New Testament Greek where "water" (Greek: hudor) referred to "amniotic fluid" (VIII:314–333). 

Evangelicals and Calvinists try to deal with the other verses where new life is attributed to baptism either by ignoring them or by arguing that it is not actually water baptism that is being spoken of. The problem for them is that water is explicitly mentioned or implied in each of these verses. 

In Acts 2:38, people are exhorted to take an action: "Be baptized . . . in the name of Jesus Christ," which does not refer to an internal baptism that is administered to people by themselves, but the external baptism administered to them by others. 

We are told that at Paul’s conversion, "he rose and was baptized, and took food and was strengthened. For several days he was with the disciples at Damascus" (Acts 9:18–19). This was a water baptism. In Romans 6 and Colossians 2, Paul reminds his readers of their water baptisms, and he neither says nor implies anything about some sort of "invisible spiritual baptism." 

In 1 Peter 3, water is mentioned twice, paralleling baptism with the flood, where eight were "saved through water," and noting that "baptism now saves you" by the power of Christ rather than by the physical action of water "removing . . . dirt from the body." 

The anti-baptismal regeneration position is indefensible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever. So the answer to the question, "Are Catholics born again?" is yes! Since all Catholics have been baptized, all Catholics have been born again. Catholics should ask Protestants, "Are you born again—the way the Bible understands that concept?" If the Evangelical has not been properly water baptized, he has not been born again "the Bible way," regardless of what he may think. 


NIHIL OBSTAT: I have concluded that the materials 
presented in this work are free of doctrinal or moral errors. 
Bernadeane Carr, STL, Censor Librorum, August 10, 2004 

IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted. 
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

Source: http://www.catholic.com/library/Are_Catholics_Born_Again.asp*


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## PJason (Jul 6, 2008)

Of course we are. I was "born again" or baptised in June of 1974 of course I was also born in June of 1974 too.


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## jmharris23 (Jul 6, 2008)

Oh no, here we go again.


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## crackerdave (Jul 6, 2008)

jmharris23 said:


> Oh no, here we go again.



x2 Please,Big7  - do not disturb the slumbering fire-ants!


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## Dick Winters (Jul 6, 2008)

Is born again the same as being saved? I have always been confused about that.


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## Big7 (Jul 6, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> x2 Please,Big7  - do not disturb the slumbering fire-ants!



Which one's? I've lost count.


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## Dick Winters (Jul 6, 2008)

So, Born Again is being baptised and Saved is accepting Christ.

Am I right?

DW


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## Dick Winters (Jul 6, 2008)

All of this beggs a second question:

What do you mean by fire ants?


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## SBG (Jul 6, 2008)

> Are Catholics Born Again?



Only God and the individual know for sure.


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## PWalls (Jul 6, 2008)

SBG said:


> Only God and the individual know for sure.



That is the best answer so far.


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## Lowjack (Jul 6, 2008)

Let God choose who is and who isn't save, let's move on.


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## crackerdave (Jul 6, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> All of this beggs a second question:
> 
> What do you mean by fire ants?



Someone here once compared Catholics to fire-ants,because when you rile 'em up,they come out and attack in force.


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## Lead Poison (Jul 6, 2008)

As with any denomination, some are and some aren't.

Keep in mind this is from my Baptist point of view, though I firmly believe it to be true. I believe one must make a personal decision to accept Jesus' gift of salvation. I do not believe this can be acquired during one's baptism as an infant. 

That said, I also firmly believe there are many Catholics who having since reached an age of accountability, have accepted Jesus as their Lord and personal Saivor. 

I believe there will be many Catholic brethern in heaven, along with my Baptist brothers and sisters in Christ.


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## kw5891 (Jul 6, 2008)

*born again*



SBG said:


> Only God and the individual know for sure.


one big way is not a bumper sticker lol bye you fruit so the muslin is a good point there fruit is a bomb


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## farmasis (Jul 6, 2008)

IMO, being born again and being saved is the same. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin and a show of obedience.

To be saved, the Bible is clear.

Romans 10

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


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## Dick Winters (Jul 6, 2008)

kw5891 said:


> one big way is not a bumper sticker lol bye you fruit so the muslin is a good point there fruit is a bomb




Could someone please translate this for me?


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## Dick Winters (Jul 6, 2008)

farmasis said:


> IMO, being born again and being saved is the same. Baptism is a symbolic washing away of sin and a show of obedience.
> 
> To be saved, the Bible is clear.
> 
> ...



From what I have read in Scripture, Baptism is more than symbolic. 

In John 3:5 Jesus clearly states, "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and spirit.

My favorite are these verses in Titus:

Titus 3: 3-8 3We ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, and far from true faith; we were slaves of our passions and ofpleasures of various kinds. We went our way in malice and envy, hateful ourselves and hating one another. 4But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, 5He saved us; not because of any righteous deeds we had done, but because of His mercy. He saved us through the baptism of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit. 6This Spirit HE lavished on us through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7that we might be justified by His grace and become heirs, in hope, of eternal life. 8You can depend on this to be true.

There are more:

Acts 22:16
1 Cor 6:11
Rom 6:4
1 Pet 3:21
Heb 10:22

As you can see, I love Scripture. The answer is always in there somewhere if you know where to look.

DW


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## crackerdave (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Could someone please translate this for me?



He said salvation doesn't come from a bumper sticker,and you can tell by a person's fruit if they are saved.He says a Muslim's only fruit is bombs [I.E.D.'s , suicide bombers,etc.]


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## dawg2 (Jul 7, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Someone here once compared Catholics to fire-ants,because when you rile 'em up,they come out and attack in force.



They are funny that way


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## farmasis (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> From what I have read in Scripture, Baptism is more than symbolic.
> 
> In John 3:5 Jesus clearly states, "I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God's kingdom without being begotten of water and spirit.


 
I do not think John is talking about baptism when he says born of water. I think he is refering to natural child birth. Basically he is saying a man cannot enter heaven until he is born and born again.

While I do not agree totally with the author about this referring to natural child birth, he does make good points.

http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html


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## Dick Winters (Jul 7, 2008)

I understand you post and not to be argumentative but what about the other verses that pretty much say the same thing and support regenerative baptism?


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## rjcruiser (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I understand you post and not to be argumentative but what about the other verses that pretty much say the same thing and support regenerative baptism?



Hmmm...this could be the start of another thread....do you have to be baptized to be saved?

Of course not.  I'll make a one post hi-jack.


Now to the original question.  Catholicism is a dangerous religion where works are mis-construed as saving faith.  If someone is a catholic and believes that they are saved solely on the basis of Christ's death and resurection, then yes, a Catholic is truely saved/born again.  If they believe that their good works are going to get them to Heaven, no they are not truely saved/born again.


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## dawg2 (Jul 7, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> ... Catholicism is a dangerous religion ....




At least we don't play with venomous snakes


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## SBG (Jul 7, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> At least we don't play with venomous snakes


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## Dick Winters (Jul 7, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Hmmm...this could be the start of another thread....do you have to be baptized to be saved?
> 
> Of course not.  I'll make a one post hi-jack.
> 
> ...



Not sure about what you just posted. I study Scripture quite a bit and I cannot see where your statement holds water. There are numerous verses in the bible which support regenerative baptism. There are also verses in Scripture that support works, as well. I am not at home right now but I have notes and will post chapter and verse to support this.

Also, calling Catholicism a "dangerous religion" is dangerous thinking. ALL religions have dangerous sides.

DW


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## rjcruiser (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Also, calling Catholicism a "dangerous religion" is dangerous thinking. ALL religions have dangerous sides.
> 
> DW



I would agree with you...all religions have a dangerous side.

I'll start a new thread in regards to baptism so that we don't hijack or derail this one too much.


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## farmasis (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> I understand you post and not to be argumentative but what about the other verses that pretty much say the same thing and support regenerative baptism?


 
I am unaware of any. I do know many that tell us how to be saved and do not mention water.


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## farmasis (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Not sure about what you just posted. I study Scripture quite a bit and I cannot see where your statement holds water. There are numerous verses in the bible which support regenerative baptism. There are also verses in Scripture that support works, as well. I am not at home right now but I have notes and will post chapter and verse to support this.
> 
> Also, calling Catholicism a "dangerous religion" is dangerous thinking. ALL religions have dangerous sides.
> 
> DW


 
verses that support works for salvation?

Would like to examine those. Probably includes the one about Abraham being justified through works which is easily interpeted if you take it in context.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 7, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> There are also verses in Scripture that support works, as well. DW



I agree...faith without works is dead, but works does not bring about salvation.  Catholicism teaches that good works gets you to heaven.  This is not the case.  Our good works are as filthy wrags to God.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 7, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> i was following along, ever so slowly until someone started disparaging some of my snake-handling friends.
> 
> seriously, i use to think it was easy to understand the Muslims, divided into the various camps inside the gates. the Shias, the Sunni's and a few other non-descript types.
> 
> Now, we look around, and find that we folks over in the western hemisphere can't agree about the basics of Christianity. what comes to my consciousness is that crossing the big water to the Western World causes lots of differences in interpretations.




Yeah..the only difference is that we don't go around wearing vests that are strapped with TNT killing off eachother in hopes of having 72 virgins up in paradise.


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## Spotlite (Jul 7, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> At least we don't play with venomous snakes





Did you know muddyfoots is a snake handler


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## farmasis (Jul 7, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I agree...faith without works is dead, but works does not bring about salvation.


 
Agree, but when you examine that in context (faith without works is dead), it is clear to me that James is talking to other believers about how to be justified in the eyes of other MEN not God! He is talking to believers about how to live a Christian life. he even mentions in verse 23 that Abraham was justified to God simply by belief.

Agree works will not bring about salvation.


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## dawg2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> i was following along, ever so slowly until someone started disparaging some of my snake-handling friends.
> 
> seriously, i use to think it was easy to understand the Muslims, divided into the various camps inside the gates. the Shias, the Sunni's and a few other non-descript types.
> 
> Now, we look around, and find that we folks over in the western hemisphere can't agree about the basics of Christianity. what comes to my consciousness is that crossing the big water to the Western World causes lots of differences in interpretations.




Interesting the rifts in Islam....mirror Christianity..... Judaism.... etc.....etc......etc....


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## dawg2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> i was following along, ever so slowly until someone started disparaging some of my snake-handling friends.



It was not disparaging, just clarifying what is dangerous and what is not


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## dawg2 (Jul 7, 2008)

Woodswalker said:


> walking on this earth is pretty near fatal to everyone who has ever tried or attempted it.  so something "out there" is pretty much fatal to nearly all of us, wouldn't you agree?   that is to say, Jesus, Son of God, did go on, but he was kilt first, was he not?



Yes, it is always terminal eventually...


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## PJason (Jul 13, 2008)

bmpique,

I am sorry that you have only been on the board for six days and two out of eight of your post have done nothing but vomit self hating lies from a former Catholic. 

Replies at this point would be meaningless the hate you have in your heart is gushing at this point and has blackened your blood.


I and all the other Catholics on the board will pray for you. Pray that you turn from your hate and turn back to God.

I will pray for return home.



> Domine Iesu, dimitte nobis debita nostra, salva nos ab igne inferiori, perduc in caelum omnes animas, praesertim eas, quae misericordiae tuae maxime indigent.


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## PJason (Jul 13, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I am sorry but the Truth is painful for those who are not in the Truth.  By your "stupid' comment it's clear that either you are catholic or ignorant of the Bible and the history books...  Am i "stupid" b/c i am familiar with the history books, catechism and the Bible?  I will gladly provide you some proof of my "stupidity"...   All of the info that i provide is NOT from me but history books, catechism and the Scriptures...  I am just a sinful man with a zeal for the Truth in Jesus and doing the Will of the Lord.  Being a sinner, I deserve eternity away from God but b/c of the Grace of the Lord, I may now spend eternity with Him in Heaven...
> 
> Here is a comparison between the catholic catechism and the Bible...
> 
> ...





BTW for your information being the Catechism scholar that your are, you should know that the "Canon" list above is not from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The "Canon" listed are, at least according to the website you pulled all this text from, from the Council of Trent. I would hope that if you where going to copy and paste an entire page of info from another website you would at least read the title of the page you are copying.


Here is the link

http://www.carm.org/catholic/trent.htm

And here is a link the Catechism of the Catholic Church

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm

If you would like your own copy I can provide one for you.


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## dawg2 (Jul 13, 2008)

bmpique said:


> The person that tells another person the truth, is the person that loves him...
> 
> I used to be catholic.  Most catholics (like i was...) rely on the infant sprinkling they had as a baby to be their "born again" experience... This is one of satan's biggest lies.  Pouring water over any person will not save them or make thim Biblically "born again".  Jesus himself was baptized at 30 +/- years old and He is our example.  John the Baptist never mentioned baptizing infants. The concept of baptism in the Bible is clear. You must repent, put ALL of your faith in Jesus and die to self, allowing Jesus to live in you and guide you the remainder of your days. Infant baptism is EVIL and its a trick used by satan to give catholics a false since of security.  It sets up that infant in the roman church putting them in the path of being a roman catholic.  First its infant baptism (which is unbiblical), then its confirmation (which is unbiblical), then its the mass (which is anti-biblical, b/c Jesus was sacrificed ONCE) and on and on...
> 
> ...



Addressing you last sentence: "Hate" is quite an UN-Christian word to use.  Additionally, people are "misled" not "mislead."  

You are quite a TROLL.  

Very rarely am I able to witness such offal or manure if you like,  typed on a forum, but occasionally it can be recognized by the  bottle fly swarms as well as the smell...


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## dawg2 (Jul 13, 2008)

PJason said:


> BTW for your information being the Catechism scholar that your are, you should know that the "Canon" list above is not from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. The "Canon" listed are, at least according to the website you pulled all this text from, from the Council of Trent. I would hope that if you where going to copy and paste an entire page of info from another website you would at least read the title of the page you are copying.
> 
> 
> Here is the link
> ...



No use in helping it (him / her) we now have a "Linwood" of the Spiritual Forum based on his posts.  Another master of cut & pasting of nebulous, obscure, ill-researched sources....Like I said: A TROLL


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## Big7 (Jul 13, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> x2 Please,Big7  - do not disturb the slumbering fire-ants!



rangerdave - Now that you see why -can I go ahead
and get him?



Dick Winters said:


> You have GOT to be kidding me.
> 
> Ignorance in it's worst form.
> 
> ...



DW - He's not kidding and to your credit, "Ignorance"
and "Stupidity" gives this "Christian" way more
than he deserves. and that is a good 



PJason said:


> bmpique,
> 
> I am sorry that you have only been on the board for six days and two out of eight of your post have done nothing but vomit self hating lies from a former Catholic.
> 
> ...



PJ - Here is ANOTHER classic example of one that
spews a lot of garbage about what he THINKS he
knows about Catholics - That is to say "nothing".



Dick Winters said:


> I have not mentioned what denomination I am. What I WILL mention is stupidity in any shape or form. I will debate Scripture with you as much as you like, because I see truth in it.
> 
> I also would seriously doubt that you were ever a Catholic, but if you were, you were probably not from a devout Catholic home because, quite frankly, I have never seen a practicing Catholic renounce their faith any more than I have seen a devout Baptist or Pentacostal renounce their faith.
> 
> ...



"Only those ignorant of Christianity as a whole would ever speak of another denomination of Christianity as you have."

DW
That pretty much sums it up and you are correct.
Again, Way to generous.

He "was" a "Catholic" about as much as I was a
"Rocket Scientist" - NOT

bmpique - I will get back to you later.
If I said now what needs to be said to you
I would be banned. AS YOU SHOULD BE!


----------



## Israel (Jul 13, 2008)

Catholics may be born again, just as baptists, methodists, pentecostals, hindus, muslims, and zoroastrians. Does "being catholic" make one born again? Of course not...but it makes one a good candidate.


----------



## PJason (Jul 13, 2008)

Israel said:


> Catholics may be born again, just as baptists, methodists, pentecostals, hindus, muslims, and zoroastrians. Does "being catholic" make one born again? Of course not...but it makes one a good candidate.



Good post


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I do thank you men very much for your evil comments about me.  For you to persecute me and call me names, b/c I love Jesus and follow the Word of God, means that I must be doing something right in the eyes of God...  There is nothing you can say or do to me that will keep me from loving all of you and praying that we will all meet together and live with the Lord forever in a place much better than this world....
> 
> John 15:20
> Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you...
> ...



You are still a troll.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> .... You guys misunderstand me and assume i am spewing "hatred"... I may be spewing hatred for a group of men (papacy) who has done more harm to this world than any other group men ever....
> 
> Bull
> 
> ...




Just for my personal interest, which denomination is it you proclaim to be the "True" Christian religion that you espouse?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Not saying that I agree with the way that bmpique has delivered his thoughts....and I am in no way a Catholic scholar....but his post brings up some questions that I have.

Does the Catholic church teach one to pray to Mary?  Why?

Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was perfect?

Does the Catholic church still practice Indulgences?

Does the Catholic church teach that there is a place besides Heaven and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----  Purgatory?

Dawg2/PJason,
Seeing that you two are Catholics...how do you believe one gets to heaven?


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Not saying that I agree with the way that bmpique has delivered his thoughts....and I am in no way a Catholic scholar....but his post brings up some questions that I have.


I would take issue with them being his thoughts. They are mostly regurgitated musings copied and pasted from a website.



rjcruiser said:


> Does the Catholic Church teach one to pray to Mary?  Why?


Pray tell what does the word “pray” mean? I ask all my friends to pray for all those I love and for me.



rjcruiser said:


> Does the Catholic church teach that Mary was perfect?


Mary was Immaculately Conceived. At the movement of her conception she received God’s grace thus wiping away the stain of original sin. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and must clean. The Ark of the Old Covenant was as required by God was purified, why would He do any less for the Ark of the New Covenant?



rjcruiser said:


> Does the Catholic Church still practice Indulgences?


Yes. Do you know what an indulgences is?



rjcruiser said:


> Does the Catholic church teach that there is a place besides Heaven and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----  Purgatory?


Yes, so did the Jews, so did Jesus and the Apostles. Nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. At the wedding feast those who tried entering in their dirty garments were turned back and given clean ones. They were on their way to Heaven already but had to be made clean in order to enter. Those going the other way are going no matter what. They will not enter Purgatory.



rjcruiser said:


> Dawg2/PJason,
> Seeing that you two are Catholics...how do you believe one gets to heaven?


Through a belief in Jesus Christ and doing as He asked.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

PJason said:


> Mary was Immaculately Conceived. At the movement of her conception she received God’s grace thus wiping away the stain of original sin. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and must clean. The Ark of the Old Covenant was as required by God was purified, why would He do any less for the Ark of the New Covenant?.



Where is this in the Bible?  I thought Christ was born perfect because He was 100% God and 100% Man.  We all know that God is perfect.  Also, Rom 3:23.  All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  It doesn't say all less Mary.



PJason said:


> Yes. Do you know what an indulgences is?



My understanding is it is paying for someone's sins who has already  died.  Is this a proper understanding?



PJason said:


> Yes, so did the Jews, so did Jesus and the Apostles. Nothing unclean can enter into Heaven. At the wedding feast those who tried entering in their dirty garments were turned back and given clean ones. They were on their way to Heaven already but had to be made clean in order to enter. Those going the other way are going no matter what. They will not enter Purgatory.



Those at the wedding feast were not on their way to Heaven.  They thought they were, but they were deceived and not on the narrow path.  They are like those in Luke 13:27 that thought they were believers and when they die, God will send them away to H*** for they were not true believers.  There are only two types of people, those that have been saved by the grace of God and those who have not.  There is no Biblical basis for purgatory.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Where is this in the Bible?  I thought Christ was born perfect because He was 100% God and 100% Man.  We all know that God is perfect.  Also, Rom 3:23.  All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  It doesn't say all less Mary.
> 
> Luke 2:41-51 - in searching for Jesus and finding Him in the temple, there is never any mention of other siblings.
> 
> ...



See Blue above


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Where is this in the Bible?  I thought Christ was born perfect because He was 100% God and 100% Man.  We all know that God is perfect.



100% God would make Him perfect 100% Man would make Him imperfect. All men have sinned Christ is 100% Man has he sinned? Christ being born of Mary, receives her human nature, receiving God’s Grace at conception would remove the stain of original sin from Mary, so she could not to pass on a sinful nature she would have to be without sin. Think about this for a minute. You have glass covered in manure and water that has gone through the RO process. Do you pour the pure water into the dirty glass? Or do you make sure the glass itself in clean too?

You can not put something clean into a dirty vessel and have it remain clean. God could have just made Jesus appear grown 100% God 100% Man. Yet he chose to use Mary as His new Ark, a vessel that must be pure.




rjcruiser said:


> Also, Rom 3:23.  All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.  It doesn't say all less Mary.



It also says that all have men have died. Have all men died?



rjcruiser said:


> My understanding is it is paying for someone's sins who has already died.  Is this a proper understanding?


No it is not.



rjcruiser said:


> Those at the wedding feast were not on their way to Heaven.  They thought they were, but they were deceived and not on the narrow path.  They are like those in Luke 13:27 that thought they were believers and when they die, God will send them away to H*** for they were not true believers.



But those who are brought into the wedding feast are giving clean wedding garments; they are not allowed to be unclean; which is why the one is thrown out. 
Let me ask you this; is there compassion in H e ll or suffering in Heaven?



rjcruiser said:


> There are only two types of people, those that have been saved by the grace of God and those who have not.



I do not disagree. Those in purgatory are saved but they must first be made clean. They must first have the wood and straw burnt away to reveal the Gold and Silver. 




rjcruiser said:


> There is no Biblical basis for purgatory.



While Church doctrine does not have to be found in the Sacred Scripture, because we do not believe in Sola Scriptura, it may not contradict Sacred Scripture. Luckily Purgatory can both be found in the Sacred Scripture and does not contradict Sacred Scripture.
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

PJason said:


> because we do not believe in Sola Scriptura



Ahhh....this explains everything I need to know about your religion.


Revelation 23:18-19
18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 

 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book. 

The 5 Solas are the backbone of true Christianity.

 1. Sola Scriptura ("By Scripture Alone")
 2. Sola Fide ("By Faith Alone")
 3. Sola Gratia ("By Grace Alone")
 4. Solus Christus ("Christ Alone")
 5. Soli Deo Gloria ("Glory to God Alone")

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_Solas


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Ahhh....this explains everything I need to know about your religion.



Yes it does explain Christianity very well. 



rjcruiser said:


> Revelation 23:18-19
> 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book;
> 
> 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book.


So why then did Luther, Calvin, and the writers of the KJV change it so much?

BTW this verse talks about the Apocalypse only. The Bible had yet to be compiled when it was written. Which begs the question, what about those folks who lived after the Death and Resurrection of Christ and before the Bible was compiled? They would never have used oral tradition would they? 





rjcruiser said:


> The 5 Solas are the backbone of true Christianity.



And magically appear 1500 years after Christ.

While the 5 Solas may sound nice, alone you will never find the Truth.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

PJason said:


> ....And magically appear 1500 years after Christ.



Interesting that some people talk of Jesus, the Apostles, the death and resurrection of Christ and then "magically" jump 1,500 years into the future in the blink of an eye...and say Catholics changed the Bible.


----------



## Doc_Holliday23 (Jul 14, 2008)

some is and some ain't, just like every other denomination.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

PJason said:


> So why then did Luther, Calvin, and the writers of the KJV change it so much?



Calvin and Luther didn't change the bible...they just translated it from Latin into German (Wycliffe into English) so that the common man of the day could read it, study it and know what it said.  Why would the Roman Catholic church try to keep the people from reading the Word of God on their own by keeping it in Latin?

BTW, I prefer the NAS or NKJV...the KJV can be difficult to read with all of the thees and thous in it.



PJason said:


> And magically appear 1500 years after Christ.



Again, it didn't magically appear after 1500 years.  It just took that long (actually 1300 years) for Wycliffe to translate it from Latin to English.



PJason said:


> While the 5 Solas may sound nice, alone you will never find the Truth.



Why not?  All of these ideas come straight from the Bible.  And it says in II Tim 3:16...All Scripture is inspired by God and profitible for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.

I believe that if it is inspired by God, it is 100% true.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> and say Catholics changed the Bible.



I never said that Catholics changed the bible.  I believe that God has caused the Bible to be made up of what it is today.  He inspired men to write it...He has kept it the way He wants it.  I don't think that we disagree that the Bible is what it is.

I will say based on PJason's post, Catholics have added to it.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Where did the 5 Solas come from and who made them up? Not trying to be a troll, just wondering for my own edification and I'm too lazy to Google them. lol
> 
> DW


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Where did the 5 Solas come from and who made them up? Not trying to be a troll, just wondering for my own edification and I'm too lazy to Google them. lol
> 
> DW



See post number 60 for background link on the 5 solas as per Wikipedia.

They are based upon doctrines taught within the Bible.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Ahhh....this explains everything I need to know about your religion.
> 
> 
> Revelation 23:18-19
> ...





rjcruiser said:


> See post number 60 for background link on the 5 solas as per Wikipedia.
> 
> They are based upon doctrines taught within the Bible.



From "whom" did they come?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Hence, THE BIBLE CAME FROM THE CHURCH. THE CHURCH DID NOT COME FROM THE BIBLE. Christianity existed over 300 years without one single Bible Christian.
> 
> DW



The Bible didn't come from the church...it came from God.  The church is what God is using to spread the Bible and its message of the Gospel.

So do you believe in the book of Mormon?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Wikipedia? Are you joking? Do you know any Tom, Dick or Harry can post stuff there?
> 
> Please use a credible source.
> 
> DW



Figured it was a pretty good basis of the 5 solas that was a non-biased source.  Yes...I can give you other resources that talk about it, but didn't want to source to be labeled biased.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

Here is an article on Sola Scriptura that is from a "biased" website that some people in this thread might find offensive.

http://www.cwrc-rz.org/articles/article-011.php


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Here is an article on Sola Scriptura that is from a "biased" website that some people in this thread might find offensive.
> 
> http://www.cwrc-rz.org/articles/article-011.php



Not offensive, just wrong


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Not offensive, just wrong



So I guess we've found the core of where we disagree.  I guess why that is why they call this the debate forum


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Calvin and Luther didn't change the bible...they just translated it from Latin into German (Wycliffe into English) so that the common man of the day could read it, study it and know what it said.



Well the common man of the day could not read. It was only the upper elite that could read then, and the upper elite were taught in Catholic Universities where they would have learned the scholarly language of the day which was Latin not English or German. Latin was the lingua franca of the day just as in the time of Christ it was Greek. And yes Luther did change words in the Bible. There was a German translation of the Bible. As a matter of fact the Bible had been translated into many different languages before Luther and into English before Wycliffe (whose translation was rejected by the writers of the KJV).



rjcruiser said:


> Why would the Roman Catholic Church try to keep the people from reading the Word of God on their own by keeping it in Latin?



They keep no one from reading it. Do you know how long it takes to write out the Bible by hand and make it legible? Try it sometime. There was no printing press. Bibles where very expensive to produce thus very few could afford them. Even after the printing press came into use Bibles where still very expensive and out of the budget of the common man. There was a Bible in every Church available for reading. And they heard it read at every Mass, yes in Latin and then in their own language along with a homily about the readings. Attend a Catholic Church everyday for three years and you will have heard the entire Bible some parts twice. Attend many other churches and you will hear a few verses each week repeated throughout the year.



rjcruiser said:


> BTW, I prefer the NAS or NKJV...the KJV can be difficult to read with all of the thees and thous in it.



Well then you could not read Wycliffe's either it was in Old English. I prefer the DB 1609 that would be two years before King James, it would also been the English translation the King James writers referenced.





rjcruiser said:


> Again, it didn't magically appear after 1500 years.  It just took that long (actually 1300 years) for Wycliffe to translate it from Latin to English.



Because we all know Jesus spoke English. Heck God speaks only English right.





rjcruiser said:


> Why not?  All of these ideas come straight from the Bible.  And it says in II Tim 3:16...All Scripture is inspired by God and profitible for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness.



You are correct it also says it is not open to personal interpretations, it also says that the Church is the Pillar and the Bulwark of the Truth. 




rjcruiser said:


> I believe that if it is inspired by God, it is 100% true.



Sacred Scripture, Sacred tradition, and the Magisterium are all three inspired by God 100%


----------



## Sterlo58 (Jul 14, 2008)

Man, some folks ( bmpique ) have a lot of spare time on their hands.


It took me a long time to wade through this one.


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I was a devout catholic for 38 years before the Lord opened my eyes to the Truth in Jesus.



38 years seems like a long time for God to leave you in the dark.



bmpique said:


> My dad studied for 3 years to be a priest before leaving.  I can assure you, i was very devout.



I would like some sort of proof on this front. What seminary did your father attend? What years? Why did he leave? Is he still a deacon?  

Also why did you leave the Church? Who made you mad? Was it your father or mother? Did a priest say something mean to you? 




bmpique said:


> You guys misunderstand me and assume i am spewing "hatred"... I may be spewing hatred for a group of men (papacy) who has done more harm to this world than any other group men ever.



You are spewing hatred for me by spewing hatred for the Catholic Church and all Her teachings. I am a Catholic the Catholic Church is the Body of Christ I am part of that Body, therefore you are spewing hatred for me.



bmpique said:


> Isn't it funny how everybody looks at Hitler as a maniac murderer b/c he killed 6 million people.  Well the papacy has killed 100 million people over 1500 years... So how come the popes are not maniacs? You don't condemn them b/c you are a papist...



The first people killed in the Auschwitz were not Jews but Catholics. Queen Elizabeth killed nearly one million Catholics during her reign. And if you picked up a history book in the last oh say twenty years you would see that the numbers killed, not by the Catholic Church but by the state governments because heresy was a state crime, during the Spanish Inquisition (you do know there was more then one inquisition both Catholic and Protestant) is lower then 10,000. 






bmpique said:


> I am not questioning your love of God at all. I am questioning the system that you are in.  Almost every doctrine that the romish church teaches come from men and not God. Just because Jesus said, "feed my sheep" does not mean that Peter is to become a pope...



You are right about one thing just because of one thing Christ said did not make St. Peter the leader of Christ Church here on earth, it was the totality of His words that did.




bmpique said:


> True Christians have always been persecuted and always will.  You guys hate me b/c I tell you the Truth and it goes against your beliefs.  Let me share a couple of verses with you.



I have not once used the word “hate” toward you at all have I? I believe you were the one who used it toward the Body which I am a part of.




bmpique said:


> Proverbs 18:13 (King James Version)
> 13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him...
> 
> So all of you are condemning me before you have researched it for yourself.



This is a false assumption. I have done way more then research I have been away for years to search and returned home. 



bmpique said:


> I  have reseached the catholic catechism, history books and the Bible.



Sadly had this been true you would have seen that your prior post was not from the Catechism, nor are many of your “points” listed here based on either church teaching or historical fact. This is where I question your sincerity in saying that you have “researched”.




bmpique said:


> I am no expert at any of this but i do know that the Holy Spirit ran me out of the catholic church as soon as I was truly born again and seeking truth.  If you seek the truth, the Lord will give it to you.
> 
> Yall are angry because your views do not match the Bible and I am exposing them. Another verse:
> Gal 4:16
> ...



I am not angry at you I am saddened by your hate.



bmpique said:


> So what is "any other gospel"?
> Let me give you a few:
> purgatory
> mariology
> ...



Here is a good site you…

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/



bmpique said:


> So I am sorry gentlemen. I do not mean to offend in any way. I do love all Catholics and the Holy Spirit has given me great discernment to help Catholics understand that they need to be asking questions about their church. Let me help you with these questions:



You continue to apologize for what you call telling the truth. Why is that? Are you feeling some sort of guilt?



bmpique said:


> 1) why didn't Peter mention in his 2 books that he had been a pope for 30 years?


Because St. Peter’s writing where focus on Christ, not on himself 



bmpique said:


> 2) if mary was sinless and a virgin how can this be?  If she didnt sleep with Joseph than she sinned...



If you could provide any sort of proof this was a sin I would like to see it.




bmpique said:


> 3) Jesus obvioulsy had siblings:
> Mark 6:3
> Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him...
> 
> ...



By your logic here then Joseph is His true father and not the Lord. Also Christ was a very devout Jew, why if He had brothers would He not put Mary into their care at His death? 



bmpique said:


> How can Mary had been sinless?
> Luke 1:46-48     46And Mary said:    "My soul glorifies the Lord      47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
> As you see here, Mary calls Jesus her Savior.  Why would Mary call Jesus "my Savior", if she was sinless? A sinless person does not need a savior b/c they are sinless...  It just doesnt make sense...



I will use the quicksand example. A man walks into quicksand Christ come along sees the man dying and pulls him out thus saving the man’s life he. Mary is walking toward the quicksand Christ stops her and says that is quicksand if you fall in you could die. Both have been saved from the quicksand or sin, however one was stained by the quicksand and the other was not. Both have a Savior Jesus Christ.



bmpique said:


> Men (popes, me, you, nobody) are NOT allowed to change the Word of God.
> 
> Read Rev 22:18-19
> 18   I" warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19   And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book."



This book is the key phrase. While I do not believe in changing the Bible or removing books like the Protestants did, this passage speaks of the Book of Revelation alone and not the Bible as a whole.



bmpique said:


> Guys, God makes it clear that NOBODY can change His Words in any kind of way.  Does the catholic church do this? lets examine...
> 1) praying to Mary (other saints) has been added.
> 2) catholic catechism has been added
> 3) eating the Jesus wafer has been added
> ...



Again… I will pass you onto here


http://www.scripturecatholic.com/




bmpique said:


> The point is this:  For all of these catholic doctrines to be true and allowed by God, then God would have to a liar.  My Bible says that He is not a liar nor can He lie... So God cannot authorize these doctrines as "Christian" b/c He did not authorize them, but men did. Take Christmas for example. If you research the origins of Christmas, you learn that the holy day had been celebrated by pagans for hundereds of years prior to Christ.  The catholic church now reigning in Rome, decides they are gonna take all of the old pagan rituals and make them "christian".  So after working on it for hundreds of years they finally came up with Christmas. Now Chrstmas is a wordly holy day for pagans, heathens, catholics, baptists, presbyterians, etc. So what does God think of our man-made holiday... He hates it!  Jesus was NOT born on 12/25 so celebrating this holy day is a lie.  Again, anything that is a lie, CANNOT be from God...  True Christians should not celebrate these roman man made helli-days..   They are not pleasing to God.



Christmas is not a doctrine. I will ask that you go back through all the post made on the board; you will find all of these false claims answered.




bmpique said:


> The history books tell us that Christians were being fed to the lions around 50ad-310adad...  if Peter was the beloved Pope of Rome, why would Peter allow these atrocities to happen?  Would Benedict allow the guards to throw Christians to the lions now?? No he wouldnt, unless he could get away with it without being caught...



Because St. Peter had no power over the Roman government, is that really your argument?  Please tell me you have some sort of at least light grasp on reality and an understanding of history.



bmpique said:


> Christianity was illegal in rome until around 311ad when Contanstine made Christianity legal...  If there had been a bunch of popes over this time period, who were Christian THEN WHY WOULD THE POPES ALLOW CHRSTIANS TO BE THROWN TO THE LIONS????  It just doesnt make any sense at all...



You said it in your own statement Christianity was illegal, how could the Pope, who’s Church was mostly underground, stop the Romans from doing anything. As a matter of fact many of those Popes were martyred by the Romans.




bmpique said:


> If Peter was a beloved pope why was he killed by his own roman army.. Makes No SENSE!!!!!



St. Peter would have had no control over the Roman army, where would you ever get an idea that he had any sort of power in the Roman army. The Catholic Church never claimed to have any sort of power in Roman at the time of St. Peter. 



bmpique said:


> The catholic church says their string of popes has never been broken.. that is another lie.  In 1798 General Berthier, who was a general for Napolean stormed into rome and captured the pope. The pope later died while in custody later on.  Around 1800, they put in another pope. So there again, they are lying.  This pope was phyically removed and another was not put in for a year or two... Just one of many lies of the papacy...






bmpique said:


> Do some research on Hitler and the Popes.  You will learn that Hitler and the Popes were in bed together...  Seems strange for a Christian leader to be big buddies with a psycho like Hitler...



Really then answer a couple of questions, why did the Jews honor the Pope after WWII for the work he did to save the Jews? Why did the Pope speak out against Hitler in many encyclical letters? One of them was written in German, why is that odd? The Pope was German of course he would write in German right? Correction Pope Puis XI was Italian. His successor Pope Puis XII was Papal Nuncio to Germany and is it believed he was he one to write this encyclical in German.. The language of the Church is Latin; everything done in the Church is in Latin including all of the Popes encyclical letters. In 1937 the Pope in order to make a point wrote his encyclical in German and addressed it specifically to the Germans. If you would like to read it I have attached a link.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xi/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xi_enc_14031937_mit-brennender-sorge_en.html

Also here is a book by a Jewish Rabbi about Pope Pius XII and how he helped saved many Jews.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods48.html

One more thing the author of Hitler’s Pope has since recanted you can it here

http://www.economist.com/books/displaystory.cfm?story_id=3471137






bmpique said:


> There many stories of the persecution that came out of rome towards people like me, who refuse to submit to the pope and follow the Bible alone...  You may want to read
> a great article on St Bartholomews Day.... where your church killed thousands of innocent people...
> http://www.reformation.org/saint-barts-day-massacre.pdf







bmpique said:


> Guys, I see that you are offended and I am sorry about that.  Sharing the Truth of Jesus with people is never easy in the beginning.



Again if you really believe it is the truth stop apologizing. 



bmpique said:


> if any of you will just start reading your Bibles (NT) and compare that to what the church teaches. you will learn thruth.



Why would you want me limit myself to the New Testament? I take the Bible as whole and read it all. I do read my Bible every day in my morning prayers I also hear it read at every Mass, but being a former Catholic and a “very devout” one at that you should know this.





bmpique said:


> God says that we have to Scriptures to prove Scriptures.  So what shuold we use to compare to the catholic doctrines?? You must use Scriptures to prove the catholic doctrines.  If you dont then you wont get anywhere...



God never said anything such thing. St. Peter did say that the ignorant and unlearned will twist scripture to their own destruction and I also think he said that no scripture is open to personal interpretation. 


cont...


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> See here where the catholic church has changed the 10 commandments:  see the link below.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments
> 
> ...




I really hope you own no clothing, hats, paintings, pictures, or anything that might have even the slightest resemblance to the Lord or you are condemning yourself too. 

The Ten Commandments have not changed they are as they have for millennia the Catholic Church has never changed them. 



bmpique said:


> Gal 1:8,9 proves that the Catholic Church is "accursed" b/c they preach a different gosel that of the Apostles.



We are the only Church with Apostolic succession, our teachings are never without the Apostles. 




bmpique said:


> The Catholic Church is also accursed again because they take away Bible doctrine and add their own Bible doctrine...



Again here is an excellent resource for you

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/


This has a forum site that you can join too, they even have a radio show. You should call you would do well.
http://www.catholic.com/






bmpique said:


> God will not share His Glory with anyone, but what does the catholic church do? they make the pope the Holy Father which is blasphemy. and give him the highest reverance possible on the earth. They even claim that he IS Jesus Christ on earth,,,, Blasphemy,  What does God saya about this...  "Those who are exalted, will be humbled. Those who are humbled will be exalted.  The pope is the most exalted man on the earth, so according to God, the pope will be EXTREMELY humbled when he dies....



I have seen the Pope humble himself in many ways John Paul the Great was one the greatest spiritual leaders of our time, I know the day he entered Heaven he was received with much joy and exaltation.



bmpique said:


> They also raise Mary to a level of worhip where God has to share His clory. God hates it...



I pray the Rosary and say Hail Mary’s and have never once “worshiped” Mary I give her the same veneration and honor that Christ did. As the perfect Jewish son He obeyed to its great extent and in obeying that law He too would have honored His Mother and His Father. As an adopted brother in God’s covenant family I afford my adopted Mother and Father the same honor. 





bmpique said:


> Anyway, I love you guys and I mean you no offense... I wont ever know you in this life but I pray that I meet all of you in Heaven one day...  Please dont shoot the messenger because he brings a message of love, hope, salvation and TRUTH. The message of the Good News of the Bible is very offensive to people who are not in it.  Thats a sure sign if someone is in the Faith or not...  One last thought, if you can learn, like you have here that the papacy has killed tens of millions of innocent people for no reason and not get mad at the PAPACY, then you are lost.  Bush has gone into Iraq and killed a few thousand people and the world is in chaos over this, calling him a murderer and terrorist.  they do have ground to stand on, as I do...  The papacy is evil, the priesthood is evil, the Magisterium is evil, the catholic doctrines are evil but the catholic people are precious....  I pray for those all the time.



What you hate is what you think you know about the Catholic Church. If you understood it you would love it. I will continue to pray for your return home. I will make a special intention for you during the time I spend in Eucharistic Adoration.


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Christianity is NOT a religion. When did Jesus tell anyone to be religious.



If Christianity is not a religion then why are you not a Jew? Christ Himself was a Jew and Christianity grew out of the Jewish religion.


BTW your repeated questions about why St. Peter let his own army kill him is a very sad one. You have shouted many times to read your history, when I suspect you have never touch a book. Your ignorance of history sad, mostly because of your devotion to lies.


----------



## dorkmen (Jul 14, 2008)

As a life long Catholic I have only been born once. I aim on keeping it that way. I plan on getting it right the first time making it all the way to salvation. Skip purgatory altogether I can pay for my sins here on earth the first time. I do not need to came back twice to get it right. I pray.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Just for my personal interest, which denomination is it you proclaim to be the "True" Christian religion that you espouse?



Hey bmpique, would you please humble me by answering my question above?  It must have been missed in the melee.


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 14, 2008)

Big7 - welcome to the ant-bed!


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Here is an article on Sola Scriptura that is from a "biased" website that some people in this thread might find offensive.
> 
> http://www.cwrc-rz.org/articles/article-011.php



Man I must live in a cave, I have never heard of any "sola" teachings


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 14, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Big7 - welcome to the ant-bed!


----------



## Big7 (Jul 14, 2008)

*Say What?!*



rjcruiser said:


> Ahhh....this explains everything I need to know about your religion.
> 
> 
> Revelation 23:18-19
> ...



'Originally Posted by rjcruiser  
Ahhh....this explains everything I need to know about your religion."  
********************************

 Ahhh, Another non-Catholic "explains everything" he
THINKS he knows about the Catholic Faith - That
is to say NOTHING! 


There are a few problems here.
We will start with #2. Sola Fide ("By Faith Alone")


Romans 3:28 Properly translated reads: (NAB)
3:28 For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 


Luther Added The Word "Alone" to Romans 3:28? 
Have you ever been in a discussion in which it was asserted that Martin Luther added words to the Bible? Here Are Some "choice" comments from the depths of cyber-space: 

"Martin Luther ADDED words to the Bible that were not there. When he was confronted with this sin of adding to the Bible he replied: "Bacause Dr. Martin Luther will have it so!" This man was one ego-maniac with delusions of popehood."

Source: http://www.saint-mike.org/apologetics/qa/Answers/Defending_Faith/p0304090025.html

"Romans 3:28 states, "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law" (NKJV). Martin Luther, in his German translation of the Bible, specifically added the word "allein" (English 'alone') to Romans 3:28-a word that is not in the original Greek. Martin Luther reportedly said, "You tell me what a great fuss the Papists are making because the word alone in not in the text of Paul…say right out to him: 'Dr. Martin Luther will have it so,'…I will have it so, and I order it to be so, and my will is reason enough. I know very well that the word 'alone' is not in the Latin or the Greek text" (Stoddard J. Rebuilding a Lost Faith. 1922, pp. 101-102; see also Luther M. Amic. Discussion, 1, 127). This passage strongly suggests that Martin Luther viewed his opinions, and not the actual Bible as the primary authority--a concept which this author will name prima Luther."

Source: http://www.cogwriter.com/luther.htm

"By September 1522, Luther had translated the New Testament into his version of the German Bible. It is to be noted that Luther taught a false doctrine that man was saved by faith alone, and upon his own recognizance and without any authority, he added the word "alone" to Romans 3:28, ... thereby ignoring all of the verses which admonish anyone not to add to or take away from, the Holy Word of GOD. He displayed his inflated ego and total arrogance, when he wrote the following regarding his addition:"If your Papist annoys you with the word (alone), tell him straightway, Dr. Martin Luther will have it so: Papist and (a.ss) are one and the same thing. Whoever will not have my translation, let him give it the go-by: the devil's thanks to him who censures it without my will and knowledge. Luther will have it so, and he is a doctor above all the doctors in Popedom."Amic. Discussion, 1, 127. Demonizing again! My My, tsk tsk, such language Dr Luther, and didn't he elevate himself above everyone on earth?This is the example set by the first Protestant, for his version of the command of Jesus Christ of, "Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" (Matthew 22:36-40)."

Source: http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/luther.htm

"...Luther insists on his own (in effect) absolute infallibility. In defending his addition of the word "alone" to Romans 3:28 ("faith alone"), Luther railed: Thus I will have it, thus I order it, my will is reason enough . . . Dr. Luther will have it so, and . . . he is a Doctor above all Doctors in the whole of Popery. (O'Connor, 25; Letter to Wenceslaus Link in 1530)One wonders whether Luther uttered these absurd sentiments with a smile on his face, or with tongue in cheek. In any event, such boastful, essentially silly and foolish rhetoric is not uncommon in Luther's voluminous writings."

Source: http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ407.HTM

The arguments above are fairly simple: Luther simply inserted the word “alone” into Romans 3:28. Luther is painted as outrageous- he shows a total disregard for the sacred text, simply making it say what he wanted it to.
Read Up!


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)




----------



## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> so i guess you have heard of these wonderful famous teaching???
> 
> Primacy of Peter
> oral tradition
> ...



Im not Catholic, but I have some friends that are. Save your self alot of typing and just say you dont like Catholics, your not making a very good Biblical argument at all.


----------



## PJason (Jul 14, 2008)

Does not the Word of God say take this and eat it this is my body, Does not the Word of God say take this and drink this is my blood
Does it not say in the Word of God that many that day could not believe what He was saying. How can this man give us His body to eat and His blood to drink, and they turned away from Him. Why did Christ not stop them a say "no wait you do not understand I did not mean really you would do this", remember through the rest of the Gospels Christ or the writers explain His parables or metaphors but not here, why because this was no parable or metaphor it means just what it says. Yes it is a hard teaching but the beauty of the Eucharist makes it much easier. So does Christ go after those leaving, No. Instead, He turned to St. Peter and ask if he to would leave, St. Peter did not ask for an explaination he simply believed that somehow this was possible. "To whom shall we go" note how St. Peter is speaking for all the Apostles he was the chef amoung them, " You have the words of eternal life" 

bmpique,

I truly believe that you miss the Eucharist and long to be back home. You seem to be in a place of deep hate right now but all of your apologizing really speaks to you longing to come home.

Below is a web address for you to consider.

http://www.catholicscomehome.org/

I will continue to pray for you.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 14, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I have a wife, 3 babies, 2 jobs, go to church 2/3 times a week and want to hunt at any opportunity...   I can assure you that time is not on my side.  I love God and seeking Him and finding Him has been an awesome experience.   I would love to see many more experience the same.  Everyone needs to experience salvation and being set free by the Truth of Jesus...  I do HATE to see people bound up in a religion that could take them to the pit...  Forgive me that the Hosy Spirit has given me a great passion for reaching the lost...   I guess that i am a terrible person.



little secret, win the person as a friend first, and remember you cant clean the fish till you get it in the boat.


----------



## Big7 (Jul 15, 2008)

*Properly Translated - In English !*



bmpique said:


> THIS POST IS EXACTLY WHY CATHOLICS MUST BE WITNESSED TO...  This is a true and true catholic who thinks like 90% of all other catholics.  God bless this man, for he is a true catholic.
> 
> first of all:
> you cannot get it right at all. men are incapable of getting anything right... its called the "total depravity of man".  You can do NOTHING to get your way into heaven.  God looks at you works and sees "filthy rags"...  We are all filthy rags in the eyes of the Lord.  Only when we accept Jesus Christ and are born again FOR A SECOND TIME....  will we ever become a righteous in the eyes of the Lord.  I TRULY pray for you dorkman.  You do not understand the dangers that you are in right now.  According to the Word of God (not me...) if you died right now you would go to the pit b/c you refuse to be "born again"...  Jesus told Nicodemus that you MUST be born again, yet you say that you don't need to be born again...   You sure do have a big set of coullions to tell the Almighty Lord that you are over and above His commandments...  My heart breaks for you and your lack of knowledge of the Bible...   Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.... (notice that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God and NOT the mass, eucharist, wafers, wine, priests, mary, nuns, purgatory, sacraments, works, etc, etc,
> ...



Here's ONE of your problems.

John 3:3 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

PROPERLY TRANSLATED - IN ENGLISH !

John 3:3 (NAB)
3
Jesus answered and said to him, "Amen, amen, I say to you, no one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/john/john3.htm
READ UP!


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> Im not Catholic, but I have some friends that are. Save your self alot of typing and just say you dont like Catholics, your not making a very good Biblical argument at all.



No kidding....


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Just for my personal interest, which denomination is it you proclaim to be the "True" Christian religion that you espouse?





dawg2 said:


> Hey bmpique, would you please humble me by answering my question above?  It must have been missed in the melee.



BMpique:

Guess he doesn't want to enlighten the common people as to this "religion" he claims is the "one."


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Where in the Bible, did Jesus or any of the Apostles say to win people as a friend *first *and then you can witness to them...? Its not in there....



You're right -  the Bible doesn't say that - common sense DOES! You SHO ain't gonna win anybody to Christ with the attitude you have.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Where in the Bible, did Jesus or any of the Apostles say to win people as a friend *first *and then you can witness to them...? Its not in there....



Hey, look at post 100 and please answer it for me.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

Back to the original question of this post...as we are arguing now about things that I don't think are going to change.  Are Catholics Born Again.

Well, define Born Again.  To me, Born Again, means truly saved.  To be truly saved....I believe the following.

1.  You must believe Jesus is God.  John 10:30 - "I and the Father are one"

2.  You must believe Jesus is Holy.  Heb 4:15b - "One (Christ) who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin"

3.  You must believe Jesus is the Savior.  Rom 3:23 - "All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."  Ezekiel 18:4 - "The soul that sins will die."  Acts 4:12 - "There is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved."  I Peter 3:18 - "Christ...died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God."

4.  You must believe that Jesus is the only way.  John 14:6 - "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me."

5.  You must believe that Jesus is Lord and serve Him.  Romans 10:9 - "If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved."  John 14:15 - "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments."

If you do these things, then I believe you are born again and will have eternal life.  If you don't believe the above, then I don't think you are born again and you are going to spend eternity apart from God.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Back to the original question of this post...as we are arguing now about things that I don't think are going to change.  Are Catholics Born Again.
> 
> Well, define Born Again.  To me, Born Again, means truly saved.  To be truly saved....I believe the following.
> 
> ...



Well good then, looks like according to your standards above, I am GOLDEN


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> If you would read your Bible you would see that Jesus DID say, "wait, you do NOTt REALLY do this..."  You cattholics take this verse and twist to fit the catholic doctrine, as you do with all the others....  First of all, this timeframe (eat/drink) was at least a year before the Last Supper.  The Last Supper occurs later on and they are not even connected... yet, you catholics try to combine this reading by Jesus and turn it into the Last Supper... You cannot do that. They are 2 separate events...
> 
> read below..
> 
> ...




So what religion is it that you follow that you so ardently profess is the right one?  

I think it a fair question considering you spewing regurguated wikipedia "factoids" with nebulous references.  Apparently you are too ashamed to name your cult, yet continue in bashing Catholicism.  Probably because your chosen faith likely has more holes in it than a tuna net.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> So what religion is it that you follow that you so ardently profess is the right one?



I don't want to answer for him, but I believe he is referencing true biblical christianity.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Well good then, looks like according to your standards above, I am GOLDEN



I don't see how you can agree to the standards that I mentioned, but not agree with the 5 solas


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't want to answer for him, but I believe he is referencing true biblical christianity.



Which is what?  Protestant?  Baptist? Lutheran? Methodist? Surely it has a name....


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> I don't see how you can agree to the standards that I mentioned, but not agree with the 5 solas



Which of those 5 things you listed do you feel Catholics do not believe?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Which is what?  Protestant?  Baptist? Lutheran? Methodist? Surely it has a name....



Why does it have to have a name?  Why are you so caught up on having a denomination to point to?  Denomination doesn't matter....the key question to ask is....is it in the Bible.  What does the Bible say.  

That is why "Sola Scriptura" is so important.  Everything I believe is based upon the Bible.  If we can't agree upon that, there is nothing more that we need to debate.  I'll say, it isn't in the Bible...you'll say, it isn't in the Bible, but in the sacred teachings.    We can't agree.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> Which of those 5 things you listed do you feel Catholics do not believe?



See your response in post #75.  Do I have to remind you of your own response


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Back to the original question of this post...as we are arguing now about things that I don't think are going to change.  Are Catholics Born Again.
> 
> Well, define Born Again.  To me, Born Again, means truly saved.  To be truly saved....I believe the following.
> 
> ...





rjcruiser said:


> See your response in post #75.  Do I have to remind you of your own response



I am talking about the 5 items at the top of this post


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I have already said that i am not "religious".  Religion is a creation of satan to get people on the wrong track to God.  Adam and Eve were not religious. Jesus was not religious. God is not religious. Angels are not religious.  We will not be religious in heaven or in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to be religious. We are instructed to love God in Spirit and in TRUTH. There are aprox 220 verses in the Bible about "Truth". Worshipping God in Spirit and in Truth is what sets apart true worshippers and religious people.  God killed people in the OT for not worshipping Him the way that He wanted.
> 
> When God opened my eyes to the false teachings of the romish church, I did not know where to go.  I just knew that I had to leave the church that killed millions of innocent people.  I went to a non-denom for a while and started studying the Bible even harder. I realized that the True Body of Christ will be a "remnant church" and not some great mass of people.
> 
> ...



Baptist.  Now things are crystal clear.  

You know I married one?  Funny thing is her pastor, preacher, whatever, had all types of ill-informed un-Christian things to say when we were getting married.  Even asked her if she knew she would have to sleep with the priest on our wedding night, told her she would have to sign away our children to the Catholic Church, among other things...sounds like you may be getting you information from the same guy.

Aspersions, insults, and  belittling of other people and things is a clear sign of insecurity.  I am glad you have found God somewhere, but your delievery needs to be worked on.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I am talking about the 5 items at the top of this post



Ahhh...okay...misunderstood.  I kinda thought it was strange that we had to rehash yesterday afternoon

I would say that we have different views of #4 (You must believe Jesus is the only way).  Now I'm gathering this based on some of your responses and some of PJason's responses (I know....you are both Catholic, but you might not believe the same thing)...so please correct me if I am wrong in my assessment.

When I state #4...Jesus is the only way, I mean that.  It isn't Jesus plus anything else.  This would encompass Christ Alone...Faith Alone...Grace Alone.


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

Matthew 23:2f

Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, "The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. Therefore,  do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you , but do not follow their example.


----------



## Big7 (Jul 15, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Big7 - welcome to the ant-bed!



Hey Buddy!
Thanks for the invite.


----------



## redwards (Jul 15, 2008)

PJason said:


> .....
> Yes. Do you know what an indulgences is?
> .......


 
Quite honestly...No, I don't....but would you please indulge (humor) me, and explain this one in layman's terms?



> PJason said:
> 
> 
> > This is the Decree that came out about the indulgence. Thought some would like to read it:
> ...


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Pjason,
> 
> i am still waiting for an answer from you on my questions. Please help me understand...



I understand and have seen you type of blunderbuss approach to posting and “witnessing”. The thought pattern is this “I will shoot out as much information as possible and ask as many different questions as possible. They will not be able to answer it all and the stuff they miss I will hammer them on.” You change the subject as much as possible in order to confuse the issues and you do not respond to others questions (response seems to put your kind of their game; I guess it could make you think and that might be a bad thing). What really need to remember is the blunderbuss was not a very affective weapon in unskilled hands. If you really want to have a discussion or if you hope to effectively “witness” to people try slowing down and making one point at a time. Take a clue from the St. Paul he did not jump from point to point to point and then circle back around inserting other points. He made his point one at a time made sure they were understood and then moved on.

Also how about answering some questions others have posed to you. You seem to have all the answers why not share a few? 

I will leave you with this…

1 Tim 3:15
But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

Did you read that part? The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth. I know you do not like it. I know that you will weasel around it and say it does not mean what is says that it is talking about something else. But you are wrong.

Pax Christi


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> That Baptist pastor said what he said b/c the catholic church tries to force their people to bring up their kids as catholics.  Complete FALLACY.  The deal was that we would do our BEST to raise our children as Christians and preferably Catholic, it was NOT a MANDATE.
> 
> 
> If you are not one of the few chosen then the Bible is offensive to them.
> ...


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> So would you know please answer my questions:
> 
> 1) the history books tell us that the papacy has killed over 50 million people... How you can justify that and put your most important salvation in the hands of evil men who would kill millions of innocent people...  and
> 
> ...



I leave my salvation in no "man's" hand.  You alluding the Catholic Church actually encourages child molestation is repulsive and incredibly moronic.  If you believe that, then you are the same as your statements.  I can't figure out if you have something wrong with you or if you are serious.

In fact, you sound just like another member that was here before that was banned.  You probably are the same one.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I never said that the catholic church "encouraged" any abuse... You are putting words in my mouth...
> Again, please help me. How  and why do you justify the papacy when it has blood on its hands and the priesthood, when it has molested thousands...?



Well you just did it again



bmpique said:


> ...  and you do put your faith in the hands of men.  Ex's...
> 
> Jesus said "call no man (holy) father..." and you call your priest (holy) father...



Matthew 23:9   "Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven."

The use of this word "your" signifies that only the creator, as Father of the spirit -- that which lasts for all eternity -- is the true "Father." The term "father" in the King James version is used over 800 times.  When you take Biblical passages out of context and/or interpreted literally one is often going to be in error. 





bmpique said:


> All yall can do is come back with some other garbage about Baptist abuse or something else... You still will not answer the questions that I asked...



It is no more garbage than what you regurgitate ad nauseum.  You erroneously cast accusations of the RCC having a monoply on Pedophilia, which they do not, so go check out that website and see if I am lying.



bmpique said:


> If I was going to a Baptist church and the pastor was caught abusing a child I would go to another church. I would keep looking for a Bible following church until I found one...



Would you leave the Baptist religion over it?



bmpique said:


> Again, please help me. How  and why do you justify the papacy when it has blood on its hands and the priesthood, when it has molested thousands...?



I have gone to other churches and something was always missing from them.  Never could put my finger on it.  Nice folks, nice sermons, etc., but something was missing.  I stay there because it is "whole" to me.  It is where I personally find God.  I am sorry you are so bitter towards Catholicism, but am glad you have found somewhere to rest your soul.  

Here is something for you:

1 St. Peter 2

1 Rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, insincerity, envy, and all slander; 
2 like newborn infants, long for pure spiritual milk so that through it you may grow into salvation, 
3 for you have tasted that the Lord is good. 

And as a result of your comments, I have said this prayer for me...

Prayer for Forgiveness.
 Dear Heavenly Father, I thank you for Your love and kindness toward me. It is Your kindness that has led me to repentance, turning from all my sins and turning to you. 

I admit that I have not been kind, patient and loving to others when they have offended me. I have allowed bitterness and resentment to grow in me, separating me from others and You, Father. At times, I have forgotten this unforgiveness in my heart. This unforgiveness festers deep within me, at times beyond my conscious reach. This affects every aspect of my life and gives the enemy a right to torment me as stated in Matthew 18. I confess that this unforgiveness and bitterness is affecting my life and relationships today. Because of these past hurts, I acknowledge the inability to love or trust others. 

I understand that forgiveness is not an emotion but an act of my will. I now choose to exercise my will to forgive others as You, Father, have forgiven me. Father, I know that You are a searcher of the heart. I ask You to search my heart. Reveal to me any hidden and secret unforgiveness or bitterness toward others that have hurt or offended me. I choose not to be ruled by a spirit of bitterness. I choose to forgive and have a spirit of peace and love in my heart. I repent, forgive and release these people right now. 

I ask you, Heavenly Father, to forgive me and restore me as I forgive those who have offended me. Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would bring everything to our remembrance. Dear Holy Spirit, I am asking You to bring to my remembrance anyone I have to forgive and I will forgive them in Jesus' name. Amen


----------



## skypup (Jul 15, 2008)

I fail to see what all this has to do with fishing and hunting. Man has argued over religion since the beginning of time. When will it ever stop?


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Moses was a terrible speaker. He had a stutter.  Aaron had to do most of his talking, does that make Moses a bad prophet? No. Noah was addicted to wine, was he a bad prophet? No.  David was an adulterer. Soloman married foreign women... All of the great men of the Bible had issues with something in their personal lives BUT they all loved the Truth, which is found in God and NOT man...
> 
> I am far from perfect, never claim to be.  But what I am offering here is the Truth, just like all of the lovers of God in the Bible...




You seem to count yourself among the Great Men, sadly boastful.
You have also left out the Greatest Man in the Bible



bmpique said:


> So if i jump around, please forgive me. I will try to do better.  If i forgot to answer a question please forgive me, I will try to answer all...



Yet you still have not answered any



bmpique said:


> Regarding your verse about the "Church"... I totally agree with it what it says about the Truth.  I do not have a problem with that.  But what you think is the "Church" and waht God thinks is the "Church" are 2 totally different things...
> 1 Cor 12:27-29
> 27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues...
> Romans 7:4
> ...



I have said many times before the Church is the Body of Christ, that same Body which you hate.



bmpique said:


> "Outside the Church there is no salvation" is a doctrine of the Catholic Faith that was taught By Jesus Christ to His Apostles, preached by the Fathers, defined by popes and councils and piously believed by the faithful in every age of the Church. Here is how the Popes defined it:
> 
> "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved." (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
> "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
> ...



Again for someone who claims to know the Catechism you sure seem to be ignorant of it.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm#III
Please read from 846 on. Actually read that part and then read the whole thing it would clear up a lot of the lies you seem happy to spread.



bmpique said:


> That is NOT in the Bible.  Yall twist and turn every verse you can to fit the Catholic Church’s teachings...  For example, "Bind and loose", "feed my sheep" and "keys to heaven" all mean that the papacy was created by Jesus. That is a lie and is twisting the Bible to say what a bunch of unregenerate men want it to say...



We take the Sacred Scripture at its Word.



bmpique said:


> So would you know please answer my questions:
> 
> 1) the history books tell us that the papacy has killed over 50 million people... How you can justify that and put your most important salvation in the hands of evil men who would kill millions of innocent people...  and



That is a simple lie from a simple mind. The history books tell no such thing. If you like a History of the Church through the centuries I would suggest Thomas F. Madden. He has a series of 7 eight hours lectures on the subject. I would suggest that you not rely on Jack Chick he tends to be a pretty lousy historian.



bmpique said:


> 2) the catholic priesthood has raped, molested and abused tens of thousands of innocent little children around the world as we know for sure by the $2 BILLION dollars worth of lawsuits and claims...
> 
> Again, why do you trust these men? Why do you put your salvation in the hands of murderers and child molesters???



Yet another simple lie from a simple mind. As I posted before this is not a Catholic problem alone, in fact it a bigger problem in Protestant Churches today than it is in Catholic ones. And apparently a big enough problem in Baptist churches to garner a website. 

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm

Why do you hear about it the Catholic Church? Because we are the organized we keep detailed records of who goes where. Most other Churches do not have this capability. Most cases of abuse in other Churches maybe reported on the local level but never make national or international news because it involves a tiny Church that no one has ever heard off, so no one would really care. But if it involves the Catholic Church which is world wide and organized then it is news worthy. 

I do not put my salvation in the hands of any man it is up to God alone. Nor does the Catholic Church teach that our salvation is in the hands of anyone but God. 


You stated above that you are far from perfect. No Pope claimed perfection, save for teaching on faith and morals, (I would remind you again of Matthew 23:2-4 remember teachings not actions) every one of them was a sinner just like you just like me, St. Peter may have been the worst. You seem to be looking for something you will never find a Church without a sinner. I wish you luck in your search. 

Pax Christi


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

redwards said:


> Quite honestly...No, I don't....but would you please indulge (humor) me, and explain this one in layman's terms?



Sorry I missed this. An indulgence is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven.


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 15, 2008)

skypup said:


> I fail to see what all this has to do with fishing and hunting. Man has argued over religion since the beginning of time. When will it ever stop?



Welcome,skypup!

It has absolutely nothing to do with fishing and hunting.Those are in other areas of the forum,along with many other things that have nothing to do with fishing and hunting.

Some call it arguing,some call it debate - I apologize for the few hateful people here.Sometimes we don't look so good to somebody just dropping in,because some are  - shall we say - "combative?" and are only here to stir up trouble and confusion and "impress" everybody with their vast knowledge of nothing.Satan has many workers.


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> I've never been on this board b4..



What's the matter why do you have to hide you identity in order to spread your hate?


----------



## redwards (Jul 15, 2008)

PJason said:


> Sorry I missed this. An indulgence is the remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sin whose guilt has already been forgiven.


OK....thanks for the definition of an "indulgence".

I suppose I can expect a future post to explain the "APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY DECREE" indulgence? 
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *PJason* 

 
_This is the Decree that came out about the indulgence. Thought some would like to read it:_






</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>


> APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY DECREE
> 
> according to which is granted a daily Plenary Indulgence
> on the 150th Anniversary of the Apparition of the Blessed Virgin Mary at Lourdes
> ...


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

redwards said:


> OK....thanks for the definition of an "indulgence".
> 
> I suppose I can expect a future post to explain the "APOSTOLIC PENITENTIARY DECREE" indulgence?
> <TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Originally Posted by *PJason*
> ...



Will do


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

well, whats the verdict? saved or not?


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> i am wasting my time. trying to talk with you lost catholics is impossible.  YALL just keep on:
> praying to mary
> praying to dead saints
> eating a jesus wafer
> ...



You are definitely a troll.  Thanks for making that clear.  I hear grape kool-aid hides the added ingredients best, try that flavor next.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> i am wasting my time. trying to talk with you lost catholics is impossible.  YALL just keep on:
> praying to mary
> praying to dead saints
> eating a jesus wafer
> ...



you know something, as valid or invalid of a point you may or may not have, your attitude kills it. Theres a group that stands sometimes in front of the Catholic Church in LaGrange with posters, they have tons of stuff on there downing the Catholics, while I may not be a Catholic and do not agree with their teachings, I dont agree with the folks outside either. Theres a right and wrong way to do everything.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Thank you for calling me a troll...  That means that if i pray for good things to happen to you, then God will heap burning coals upon your head....
> ...



You sound like a fanatic muslim, not a Christian. Oh yeah, you are welcome.



bmpique said:


> Dear Lord, I do not know Dawg2.  But i want to pray for him b/c he is lost.  He thinks that his catholic church can save him, with the mass, confession, eucharist, lent, ash wednesday, etc...  Lord we both know that none of these things can save Dawg2, b/c he is totally lost in his catholic faith.  he puts his trust in the nuns, popes, priests, lent, wafer and NOT in Jesus alone.  Lord please deal with Dawg2 in a way that glorifies you Lord... If you want to punish him, please punish him, if you want to spare him, then please spare him... Your will is most important Lord.
> Please deal with dawg2 that brings the most glory to you...  i love you Lord and cant wait to see you...



You need help.  I hear Lithium has been successful with acceptable side effects.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

Dear Lord I dont know bmpique, but heap burning coals upon his head. He is gone over board with his judgements and condemnations. He has failed to just witness and let you do your job of convicting, he tried to play your role also. He didnt stop with just the disagreement, he took it to degrading and Lord, have mercy on him.

Now, bmpique, got you covered to just in case.


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> who do love God but are all wrong in their methods.  i want to see themn in heaven or back on earth an maybe we could hunt some deer together...



let me guess, your Jehovas Witness or Mormon

just asking due to your comment.


----------



## Big7 (Jul 15, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> let me guess, your Jehovas Witness or Mormon
> 
> just asking due to your comment.



Leave out the second "M" and you will have it!


----------



## Big7 (Jul 15, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> well, whats the verdict? saved or not?



I have an answer for you. (and all)

I'll put it up later - I want to see where
(else) this goes first.


----------



## PJason (Jul 15, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Anyway, i am done. You Catholics refuse to answer the questions. You change the subject. you will NOT answer



I answered your questions you have answered none of ours

I do hope you find what you need.

Pax Christi


----------



## Big7 (Jul 15, 2008)

pj- see #145


----------



## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Big7 said:


> Leave out the second "M" and you will have it!


----------



## crackerdave (Jul 16, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> you know something, as valid or invalid of a point you may or may not have, your attitude kills it. Theres a group that stands sometimes in front of the Catholic Church in LaGrange with posters, they have tons of stuff on there downing the Catholics, while I may not be a Catholic and do not agree with their teachings, I dont agree with the folks outside either. Theres a right and wrong way to do everything.



Spotlite,I know the group you're talking about,and they are NOT from Faith Baptist in Lagrange.They are Faith Baptist up near Luthersville.Just wanted you to know that -there are a lot of folks that have the two churches confused,and I don't want anybody thinking I'm part of that bunch.

Big7 - When you asked this question concerning Catholics and their salvation was it just to stir up trouble,or did you really wonder if they are "born again?"Only you and God know the reason.
I agree more with the one person who said "some are,some aren't" more than any other answer I read here. One thing is for sure: God knows who is His and who is not.That's all that matters.

May Jesus Christ be honored and glorified by all we say and do.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> ....I agree more with the one person who said "some are,some aren't" more than any other answer I read here. One thing is for sure: God knows who is His and who is not.That's all that matters.
> 
> May Jesus Christ be honored and glorified by all we say and do.



I agree.  Some are, some are not and it is up to God to decide, not man.


----------



## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

You should really give credit where credit is due.

Here is the link to the plagiarized information above
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> CATHOLIC TRADITION - Mary is the mother of God.
> 
> WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS - Mary is the mother of the earthly Jesus, not God. Jesus pre- existed from everlasting as God
> .....



So now you say Jesus is not God?  What Bible are you reading?

John 5
17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” 

18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 (New King James Version)
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24   
24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” 

John 14:9-11   
9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

Philippians 2:5-7    
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men.

Titus 2:13   
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,



You tread near blasphemous grounds...I pray you get yourself in order...

Matthew 12
31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32"And whoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever shall speak against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age, or in the age to come,"


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

PJason said:


> You should really give credit where credit is due.
> 
> Here is the link to the plagiarized information above
> http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/cath.htm



Interesting.  BMpique, we have an informal rule in here that you post a link showing your source.  Thanks in advance.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> also, the romish church changed the 10 commandments so that they can have statues, icons, relics in their homes and churches...   see the link below.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No they didn't.  It is not allowed.  Straight from your source:

#1 "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> sorry, i was out of order with that...  please accept my apologies...  you can call me what you want, I am just a Bible believing Christian who trys to please God.
> 
> I know my hatred towards false religion is strong but it comes from the Holy Spirit not me...
> 
> If I would have died 4 years ago, i would have gone to the pit, b/c i put my faith in my infant baptism...   i thought i was born again but wasn't.  i just dont like seeing other people do the same thing that i did...




I told you that Lithium works.


----------



## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

I do find it funny for someone who claims the Bible as their only guide, to constantly have to use the writing of others to make his point. I would think that if you were as well versed in the scriptures as you claim no outside help would be needed. I, on the other hand, have no problem using the Sacred Scripture along with Sacred Tradition and the guidance of the Magisterium in order to come to a greater understanding of the Truth. I could copy and paste whole pages of info to refute your post above, but I will save room and send you here http://www.scripturecatholic.com/. It is an excellent resource. 

Pax Christi


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> What they are saying there, is Mary is the mother of Jesus or God incarnate and NOT the mother of God.  How can she be the mother of God when God created her...?  you misunderstand the quote...



So you are a polytheist?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

Spotlite said:


> well, whats the verdict? saved or not?



You must believe in Salvation by GRACE ALONE (See Rom 11:6 - But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace).  If you don't believe this, you are not saved.

It is not because of grace plus works...which is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.  This is why the 5 solas are so important and the RCC doesn't agree with them.  They are contrary to every man made tradition that they have created.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> It is not because of grace plus works...which is what the Roman Catholic Church teaches.  This is why the 5 solas are so important and the RCC doesn't agree with them.  They are contrary to every man made tradition that they have created.



The 5 Solas are MAN MADE


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Ok, so you are saying that the roman church does not teach a different 10 commandments than the original 10 commandments given to the Jews by Moses...??
> 
> http://www.fisheaters.com/lists.html#11
> 
> ...




Pure idiocy, what you have posted above.  Absolute, blatant fabrication and lies.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07636a.htm
_Idolatry
An essential difference exists between idolatry and the veneration of images practised in the Catholic Church, viz., that while the idolater credits the image he reverences with Divinity or Divine powers, the Catholic knows "that in images there is no divinity or virtue on account of which they are to be worshipped, that no petitions can be addressed to them, and that no trust is to be placed in them. . . 

Considered in itself, idolatry is the greatest of mortal sins. For it is, by definition, an inroad on God's sovereignty over the world, an attempt on His Divine majesty, a rebellious setting up of a creature on the throne that belongs to Him alone. Even the simulation of idolatry, in order to escape death during persecution, is a mortal sin, because of the pernicious falsehood it involves and the scandal it causes. _

You guys watch too many movies....


Do you have a picture of your wife?  Kids?  Dog?  No different.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> How am I an idiot for showing you the official teaching from the vatican on the roman 10 commandments?  How am i am an idiot for showing you several other catholic websites again showing the roman catholic 10 commandments?  I didn't delete the 2nd commandment and split the 10th so that I could be an idolater...  your church did that, so how i am the idiot for showing you your own church's official teachings on the 10 commandments?
> 
> How am i fabricating anything? all i am doing is showing you what your church teaches...  the vatican teaching on the commandments is clear and the Bible is clear about the commandments so how am i an idiot? i am just showing you what is there for all to see in black and white...
> 
> ...



First off, I didn't call you an idiot.  I said the post was "idiocy," there is a difference.

Secondly, show me in the Bible where the 10 Commandments are numbered and put into a list.


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> ...why do you sweep the holy crusades, ... under the rug?



According to Bush we are fighting a "Crusade" now.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/br_70Kbdpow&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/br_70Kbdpow&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

Dick Winters said:


> Grace alone was not in the Bible until it was put there by Martin Luther. It is false teaching. See posts here by Big7. The 5 solas are also not in the Bible.
> 
> DW



Okay...don't know how Big7s post (#90 for quick reference) has to do with Grace Alone.  His post has to do with Faith Alone.  But I'll continue on.  The 5 solas are in the Bible....stated that way...No...but there are scripture verses to back each one of them...just like the term premillenialism isn't in the Bible, but is explained and supported by many different verses.  The only way they can be refuted is by Catholic historians who say Luther added words to the bible and didn't translate them properly.

Since Rom 3:28 is the verse in question...leave alone out of the translation.  Properly translated reads: (NAB)
3:28 For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 

It says justified by faith APART FROM WORKS.

Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace. 

Again, it is by GOD's GRACE...not WORKS

These verses are not man-made.  They are from the INERRANT Word of God.  How can you explain a salvation by works from the Bible?


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> The 5 Solas are MAN MADE



How is Rom 11:6 MAN MADE


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> How is Rom 11:6 MAN MADE



I said the "5 Solas"


----------



## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Thank you but I was Catholic for 38 years before being saved and I am quite familar with the teachings of the Popes...



You continue to claim that you were Catholic for 38 years and you are familiar the Churches teachings, yet you seems to know little of the Catechism or of Church teaching other then plagiarized material you find on anti-Catholic, anti-Semitic, and racist websites.

I ask before and I will ask again. Where did your father supposedly attend seminary? Is he still a deacon? Why did he leave?  



bmpique said:


> I do not need to read Catholic websites.  All that can be found there is confusion which does not come from God...



Of course the only way for you to not answer any questions is to simply dismiss them. I have read through all the websites you have posted, willingly and in the spirit giving them a fair hearing. You are unwilling to do the same. The only conclusion I can draw is, you are afraid of anything that would dispel all of your lies and hate that has blacken your blood.




bmpique said:


> As far as plagiarizing you are correct. I cannot come up with any new revelation about God or the Word of God nor can any man, Pope, priest or Magisterium... All revelation ended when John wrote the Book of Revelation while on the island of Patmos... So yes, every teacher, pastor, teacher, etc plagiarizes when they teach b/c all we can do is refer back to the Scriptures... We cannot come up with anything new.  All of the 40 men that wrote the Bible were under the influence of the Holy Spirit therefore making all of the Bible perfect.  No man since John the Revelater has had the HS in the same kind of way thus making their teachings perfect as did the Apostles, Jesus and all of the prophets of the OT...  Thats why it does NOT matter what any man, pastor, priest, teacher, cardinal (whoever) writes about God.  If it lines up with the Bible than it is a solid teaching and if it does not line up with the Word than it is to be dismissed...  So yes, everybody who is in the Truth will plagiarize otherwise they are taking the chance of being wrong and a false teacher...  the Bible is clear that all we need is the Word of God...



But you claim Sola Scriptura, so why do you need other men to interpret Sacred Scripture for you. Have you not prayed to the Holy Spirit and asked for His guidance? And if you have why can you not use your own words to tell us all about the Word of God. You are depending on the interpretation of other men. Granted you may believe they are led by the Holy Spirit in their interpretation, but if you are relying on anyone else’s understanding of Scripture aside from your own then you a relying on oral tradition, which is not Scripture Alone.




bmpique said:


> 2 Timothy 3:14-16
> 
> 14  But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15  and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness...




Scripture is also clear that it is the Church that upholds and defends the Truth. Not your personal interpretation. The Church is not some invisible thing, it is real, solid, tangible, a City on a Hill that can not be hid.



bmpique said:


> I am still waiting for your answers to my questions.  I keep answering yours... and will be glad to answer any...



Scroll up and read through my post.



bmpique said:


> why do you sweep the holy crusades, Spanish inquisition and all of the atrocities made by the papacy since the 4th century under the rug?



I have not swept anything under any rug. I know the history of the Church, I have researched it extensively. I have offered reliable resources, that I would be happy to provide free of charge, on the subject of Church history, so far you have passed on the offer. 



bmpique said:


> how do you justify all of the murders, torture and persecution made by the papacy over the centuries?



I have never pretended to justify murder or torture. But I have offered a point of view that you seem to have read over.



bmpique said:


> how can you just dismiss all of those things??  and follow these men and their extra biblical teachings...?



Again I do not follow men I follow God and His instructions. I am not sure how many different ways I can say it.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> I said the "5 Solas"




Okay...so how do you dismiss Rom 11:6 Which says Grace Alone?


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...so how do you dismiss Rom 11:6 Which says Grace Alone?



How do you dismiss James 2

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


----------



## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> How do you dismiss James 2
> 
> 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.




The whole chapter of James 2 is showing how Faith without works is dead.  In other words, if you have true faith, you will do the works of God.  It does not mean that you need to do works to gain faith. 

Think of it this way...faith produces works.  Works does not produce faith.  Horse...then the cart.  Not the cart then the horse.

Okay...I answered your question....now answer mine


----------



## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> The whole chapter of James 2 is showing how Faith without works is dead.  In other words, if you have true faith, you will do the works of God.  It does not mean that you need to do works to gain faith.
> 
> Think of it this way...faith produces works.  Works does not produce faith.  Horse...then the cart.  Not the cart then the horse.
> 
> Okay...I answered your question....now answer mine



If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved?


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## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

dawg2 said:


> If we are saved by faith alone, then do we need to love in order to be saved?



Quit asking and answer.

I'll play your game with you, but I'll only answer one at a time

Explain Rom 11:6


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## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> He attended a seminary in New Orleans but I dont know the name... He left the seminary b/c he loved women and drinking... He got married and stayed catholic... i dont see why this is important... other than the fact he is relying onhis infant baptism as his "born'again" experience which is unbiblical... I pray for him to get born again every day before he dies...



And now we see why. It’s a Daddy issue. It explains a lot. Just remember the Church is the perfect Body of Christ made up of both Saints and sinners. I am sorry you have let the actions of the few drive you away. You are always welcome back home.

Pax Christi


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## PWalls (Jul 16, 2008)

Well, been following this one for a while. Some really good debate thrown in with a whole lot of nasty.

Saw a couple of posted "prayers". Let's try another one.

"Lord, please grant the moderators wisdom to shut this dead-end thread down. Or, Lord, please give the posters an extra measure of grace and love to show them the futility of the arguments going back and forth and the lack of love in the posts. I ask this in the Holy and wonderful name of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ".

By the way, I "said" a much better version of that prayer just now directly.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 16, 2008)

PWalls said:


> Well, been following this one for a while. Some really good debate thrown in with a whole lot of nasty.
> 
> Saw a couple of posted "prayers". Let's try another one.
> 
> ...



Wait wait wait...I have no hatred towards Dawg or PJason...I've answered the James 2 question...I would like a response on Rom 11.  Anyone? Anyone?


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Wait wait wait...I have no hatred towards Dawg or PJason...I've answered the James 2 question...I would like a response on Rom 11.  Anyone? Anyone?



Can't be alone, if it was, then explain this:

1 Corinthians 13
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.


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## PWalls (Jul 16, 2008)

rjcruiser said:


> Wait wait wait...I have no hatred towards Dawg or PJason...I've answered the James 2 question...I would like a response on Rom 11.  Anyone? Anyone?



That was the "good debate" I was referring to. Maybe start another thread?


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> good call....  i'm done.



You left your button....


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

PWalls said:


> That was the "good debate" I was referring to. Maybe start another thread?



Sounds good.  This one leaves a bad taste


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## Big7 (Jul 16, 2008)

rangerdave said:


> Spotlite,I know the group you're talking about,and they are NOT from Faith Baptist in Lagrange.They are Faith Baptist up near Luthersville.Just wanted you to know that -there are a lot of folks that have the two churches confused,and I don't want anybody thinking I'm part of that bunch.
> 
> Big7 - When you asked this question concerning Catholics and their salvation was it just to stir up trouble,or did you really wonder if they are "born again?"Only you and God know the reason.
> I agree more with the one person who said "some are,some aren't" more than any other answer I read here. One thing is for sure: God knows who is His and who is not.That's all that matters.
> ...



Don't know much (anything) about the the LaGrange
churches - therefore, can't comment on that.

The second part of your question was directed to me and
 I do have a response for you. I have a few things to do today and will address your question this evening.

My response will be lengthly and will require considerable thought as to how to say what I mean without leaving room for conjecture.

Meantime, the short answer to your question is NO - I did not put up this post to stir up any trouble. And, I agree 
that God is the only one that knows. But as a group, Catholics -on here are subjected repeatedly to the kind of double standard demonstrated on this post and many more in the SF threads.

Example: Look back through the SF threads.
You will find a lot of Catholic this and Catholic that
from non-Catholics and I don't think I have ever heard anyone ask (poster, insert name) did you put this up
just to stir up trouble? That is not to say that it has not happened, just that I have never seen it myself.

Also have seen and heard of Catholics and non-Catholics
that have spoken out about the double standard be banned. Some through PM's that were here before
my time and some that I have personally seem since I joined and started posting.

My general opinion is this:
Most of this stuff that is derogatory toward Catholics are
from posters that are non-Catholic -posting stuff through
pure hatred or people posting what they THINK they
know about the Catholic Faith, which is to say NOTHING.

Anyway, back to the short answer.
No, I did not post to stir up trouble and you will have my complete answer this evening.


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> Galatians 4:16
> 
> 16  Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?



James 4

11 Do not speak evil of one another, brothers. Whoever speaks evil of a brother or judges his brother speaks evil of the law and judges the law. If you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. 
12 There is one lawgiver and judge who is able to save or to destroy. Who then are you to judge your neighbor?


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> The history books show us that the papacy has killed millions of innocent people.  Fox News and the newspapers tell us that thousands of catholic priests have molested tens of thousands of little children... These men need to be judged and exposed.
> 
> And yes, if we don't judge people then we'll never witness to anyone...
> 
> ...



Romans 16
17Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 

 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple. 

 19For your obedience is come abroad unto all men. I am glad therefore on your behalf: but yet I would have you wise unto that which is good, and simple concerning evil. 

 20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> ...  Fox News and the newspapers tell us that thousands of catholic priests have molested tens of thousands of little children... These men need to be judged and exposed.....



Check your facts.  You are in the fray as well.  In fact, according to the article, you are in the lead position.

Data Shed Light on Child Sexual Abuse by Protestant 


By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: June 16, 2007
NASHVILLE, June 14 (AP) — The three companies that insure a majority of Protestant churches say they typically receive upward of 260 reports a year of children younger than 18 being sexually abused by members of the clergy, church staff members, volunteers or congregants. 
The figures released to The Associated Press offer a glimpse into what has long been a difficult phenomenon to detail: the frequency of sexual abuse in Protestant congregations.

Religious groups and victims’ supporters have been keenly interested in the figure since the Roman Catholic sexual-abuse crisis erupted five years ago. The church has said it has recorded 13,000 credible accusations against Catholic clergymen since 1950. (224 per year)

Protestants’ numbers are harder to come by and sketchier because the denominations are less centralized than the Catholic Church. Many congregations are independent, making reporting even more difficult.

Some of the numbers are from three insurers: the Church Mutual Insurance Company, the GuideOne Insurance Company and the Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Company.

Together, they insure 165,495 churches and worship centers — mostly Protestant congregations — for liability against child sexual abuse and other sexual misconduct. They also insure more than 5,500 religious schools, camps and other organizations.

Church Mutual reported an average of 100 sexual abuse cases a year involving minors over the last 10 years. GuideOne said it had received an average of 160 reports a year for the last 20 years. Brotherhood Mutual reported an average of 73 reports of child sexual abuse and other sexual misconduct a year for the last 15 years. Brotherhood does not specify which victims are younger than 18, so it is impossible to accurately add that to the total cases.

The companies did not produce supporting documentation or a way to determine the reports’ credibility.

Reports of abuse do not mean guilt and do not necessarily result in financial awards, the companies said. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/16/us/16protestant.html?_r=1&oref=slogin


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> 17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them _*which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them*_
> 
> 
> Very true... great Scripture, but I havent offered a single thing in thie thread that is _*contrary to Scripture...  SEE comments belowYour church is the one that teaches praying to Mary, eating "jesus", confessing to sins to another sinful man, indulgences, purgatory, etc, etc ... which none of those things are in the Bible...  Sorry, but all of your man-made doctrines are unbiblical....*_
> ...



"Hate" is unbiblical.
"Lying" is unbiblical.
"Gossip" is unbiblical.
"Slander" (from your last slanderous post) is unbiblical.
"Insanity" is....nevermind...
"Spite" is unbiblical.
"False witness" is unbiblical.

Need I continue?  Sounds like the work of the debbil.


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## Spotlite (Jul 16, 2008)

Catholics 5

Mormon/JW 5

all tied up, round 11


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## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> good call....  i'm done.



Yet another falsehood


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## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> i thought i would put this icon, since you worship icons and it's a picture of what the Popes did to all of the true Christians thru out the centuries...



Actually it is the Eastern Rite Churches that have icons. We have statues, remember we are part of the Latin Rite.


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## PJason (Jul 16, 2008)

bmpique said:


> My dad has nothing to do with it... You are correct the church is the body of Christ but its far from perfect. None of us who are born again are perfect.  A saint is not a dead person that the popes decide gets a "saint" title... All who are born-again are saints according to God and they are all alive...
> 
> The "actions" of the papacy and priests that I hate aren't exactly "a few"... The persecutions, inquisition and holy crusades lasted about 1100 years.  So 1100 years divided by 1500 (age of papacy) = 73.33%.. . So if you calculate the number of popes since the 5th century (which is when they evolved...) you come up with approx 200 popes.  73.33% x 200 popes = 146 popes. So out of 200 popes that have reigned about 146 of them have the blood stains of millions of innocent people on their hands...  I would not call that a "few"...  The estimates of these murders is between 50 million and 500 million. Lets take the low end or 50 million.  So 146 popes killed 50 million people.  That comes out to be 342,465 innocent people killed by each one of those 146 popes...  thats not a "few" my friend...
> 
> If you're not born again i sincerely hope that Jesus saves you...



There have been 266 Popes.


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## dawg2 (Jul 16, 2008)

PJason said:


> Yet another falsehood



Yep.  Just a "bit" disingenuous.....


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## Al33 (Jul 16, 2008)

Time to bring this to a close. Very disappointed to see that some feel the need to be insulting and/or inflaming in what should have been an interesting  debate among mature Christians. To you who stood the test of the insults without responding with a smart retort, good for you.


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