# God's Salvation plan?



## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2018)

I was thinking how God had His salvation plan which was an answer to the Law plan. One can still try and follow the Law plan if you like.
Anyway the Law was to show us that we were too evil to keep it. It was just to show us the real plan. A shadow of Jesus.

That man is not righteous enough to keep law. That we needed our righteousness imputed.
Considering how hard the Law plan was, wouldn't it stand to reason the real salvation plan would be easy? Wasn't part of the allure that it was easy? That Christ had done the hard part? That all we had to do was accept his his suffering?

Christ did the suffering. The hard part. The yoke. The slavery. The legalism. The ceremonies. The rituals. The restrictions. The circumcisions.

If the Law was hard, wouldn't the Grace plan be easy for us? Otherwise, Jesus didn't do the hard part. His blood was shed for nothing. We could just try and save ourselves.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Nov 27, 2018)

Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him? One who had lived a whole lifetime trying to please God by keeping the Law. 
To now be told it was all in vain. That now there was a new way, a different way. A grace way. A cross way. To forget what your parents and teacher told you. 
That now, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for your inability to keep the Law. That Christ died to impute His righteousness to you. That you never had any in the first place.

Imagine if you were 60 and a Jew back then. Having tried all those years to be something that you never could. 

Then to think you thought you had something special suddenly offered to the whole Gentile world.  Talk about a humbling experience.


----------



## 1988USMC (Nov 28, 2018)

So thankful for the overwhelming, never ending, wonderful grace of Jesus Christ! We have all received a gift that we can't earn and most certainly don't deserve.


----------



## Israel (Nov 28, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> > Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him?
> 
> 
> One who had lived a whole lifetime trying to please God by keeping the Law.
> ...




Now add to this



> Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him?



That the One who is preached from Heaven as Lord is the One crucified (hung on a tree) outside the walls of Jerusalem. The significance of that form "hung on a tree" is not lost upon the Jew.

But we are bolder. It is not lost on _any man_. One need not be a Jew, simply in the form of man to find the deepest repugnance to such a death, there. The offense of the cross is not reserved only to the Jew man. It offends all, as rightly _it must. _As rightly it has been determined to. That no man may find the glory there_ except it be revealed_ by God.

Salvation is of the Lord!


O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable _are_ his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

And so God reserves to Himself explanation _in all and any form_ and we be found only witnesses of what we have both seen and heard of the Lord.


----------



## hawglips (Dec 10, 2018)

If eternal life was so easy, it would seem that the gate we must enter into and the way we must walk to get there would not be so strait and narrow - such that "few there be that find it" - in contrast to the "many there be that go in" through the wide gate and broad way that leads to destruction.  Seems to me the description Christ gave to the two paths would be reversed if it was easy.  And it seems to me that most Christians take the mental approach that they are reversed.

And then the parable of the 10 virgins - believers who had called on and were waiting on the Lord - and to half of those believers - the less alert and prepared ones - He said, "I don't know you." 

And if there was still any question on it, there is much clarity when He said that not every one that says to Him, "Lord, Lord" will enter the kingdom of Heaven.  That is reserved for those that do the will of the Father. 

And the goats will be separated from the sheep based on what they did.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2018)

That's the big thing I see within the two camps of Christianity concerning salvation. 
In one camp there is salvation for the saved vs the unsaved. The believers vs the unbelievers. The other camp it is salvation for the righteous vs the evil.

Even the resurrection is divided by the good vs the evil.

Matthew 13:49
This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous. 

John 5:29
and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment. 

"those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."

"there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."


----------



## j_seph (Dec 10, 2018)

51 Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.


2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.


3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.


4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.


5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.


6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.


7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.


8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.


9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.


10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.


11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.


*12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.


13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.


14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.


15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.


16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.


17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.*


18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.


19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.


----------



## j_seph (Dec 10, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Matthew 13:49
> This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous.
> 
> John 5:29
> and they will rise again. Those who have done good will rise to experience eternal life, and those who have continued in evil will rise to experience judgment.


49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, 
What is the difference between separate and sever, righteous and just?

What about the difference in this one?
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation. 

Sometimes it is just strange to me how scriptures are reworded from the old to the new.


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 10, 2018)

hawglips said:


> And the goats will be separated from the sheep based on what they did.


Based upon what they are.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
> What is the difference between separate and sever, righteous and just?
> 
> What about the difference in this one?
> ...



Then it's the separation of the "just" from the wicked? Perhaps a severing of the wicked from the "just."

I think the word was "dikaiōn"which means;  just, correct,  or righteous impl. innocent.

Could it be implied righteousness or imputed righteousness?

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
or
to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2018)

j_seph said:


> 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
> What is the difference between separate and sever, righteous and just?
> 
> What about the difference in this one?
> ...



OK, help me see John 5:29 in that same light;

And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of ****ation.

The word here is "agatha" which means "the good." The verse says those that "have done good." It sounds like works but maybe the folks that have done good means believing.

If we compare the resurrection to the sheep and goats separation, it does sound like works. Feeding, giving drink, inviting a stranger, clothing the naked, helping the sick, & visiting prisoners. 

If those things mentioned were not part of the reason for the separation, why were they given? The cursed were the ones who didn't do those good works to other men and thus Jesus.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2018)

Matthew 25:46(KJV)
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

This time the word "righteous" is used for "dikaioi" instead of the "just." That interesting It's strange how the words of scripture are reworded from the old to old as well as from the old to the new.

Unless we just assume implied righteous by the blood of Christ.

Definition; correct, righteous, by implication innocent
Usage: just; especially, just in the eyes of God; righteous; the elect 

I could see or understand it easier to mean that if it weren't for the separation of the sheep and goats based on those that did good from those that didn't do good.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 10, 2018)

It would be a lot easier to understand if all the verses about the resurrection said this;

Acts 24:15
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the saved and unsaved.
or
And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the elect and unelect.

Maybe the just and unjust mean exactly that. The words above were added by me. Changed from the just and unjust or righteous and unrighteous.

If the interpreters did what I think they imply, would it be adding to or taking away from the Word of God?


----------



## welderguy (Dec 11, 2018)

hawglips said:


> If eternal life was so easy, it would seem that the gate we must enter into and the way we must walk to get there would not be so strait and narrow - such that "few there be that find it" - in contrast to the "many there be that go in" hithrough the wide gate and broad way that leads to destruction.  Seems to me the description Christ gave to the two paths would be reversed if it was easy.  And it seems to me that most Christians take the mental approach that they are reversed.
> 
> And then the parable of the 10 virgins - believers who had called on and were waiting on the Lord - and to half of those believers - the less alert and prepared ones - He said, "I don't know you."
> 
> ...



Everyone has a goat nature. Some also have a sheep nature as well. There is a day when the goat is sent away into the wilderness never to be seen again. God does not "know" the goat.He tells it to depart. He knoweth His sheep. He tells it to inherit the kingdom.

remember. "I pray not for the world, but they that are in the world".


----------



## gemcgrew (Dec 11, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Everyone has a goat nature. Some also have a sheep nature as well. There is a day when the goat is sent away into the wilderness never to be seen again. God does not "know" the goat.He tells it to depart. He knoweth His sheep. He tells it to inherit the kingdom.
> 
> remember. "I pray not for the world, but they that are in the world".


I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.

Thanks for that.


----------



## welderguy (Dec 12, 2018)

gemcgrew said:


> I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.
> 
> Thanks for that.



Can anyone or any thing really depart from a God that is everywhere present and nowhere absent?
But, I fully believe that a nature can be fully annihilated. Light banishes darkness.


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 12, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can you imagine approaching a Jew back in the day and trying to explain it to him? One who had lived a whole lifetime trying to please God by keeping the Law.
> *To now be told it was all in vain.* That now there was a new way, a different way. A grace way. A cross way. To forget what your parents and teacher told you.
> That now, all you have to do is believe that Jesus died on a cross for your inability to keep the Law. That Christ died to impute His righteousness to you. That you never had any in the first place.
> 
> ...



They were never told it was all for nothing. They receive the promises just as we receive them... By Faith. But we have a better covenant than they, because ours is in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not bulls and goats. God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing, just as everything else He does is in His timing. Not a moment too soon or too late. Right on time. The law was their schoolmaster that pointed them to their sin


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 12, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> They were never told it was all for nothing. They receive the promises just as we receive them... By Faith. But we have a better covenant than they, because ours is in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, not bulls and goats. God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing, just as everything else He does is in His timing. Not a moment too soon or too late. Right on time. The law was their schoolmaster that pointed them to their sin



His timing;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

What were these "covenants of the promise" or "covenant of the promises?"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 12, 2018)

The apostle Paul says of them: “They are Israelites; theirs the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; theirs the patriarchs, and from them, according to the flesh, is the Messiah” (Romans 9:4-5)

_“ ‘Behold, the days are coming,’ says the Lord, ‘when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah-not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,’ says the Lord”_  (Jeremiah 31:31-32).


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 13, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> His timing;
> 
> Ephesians 2:12
> remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.
> ...


The covenant of promise was that God the Son incarnate would came and take away the sin of the world. That was the promise God made to His covenant people Israel. People from the outside could also become covenant people in the Old Testament as well. Just as Ruth told Naomi.
16 But Ruth said:

“Entreat me not to leave you,
_Or to_ turn back from following after you;
For wherever you go, I will go;
And wherever you lodge, I will lodge;
Your people _shall be_ my people,
And your God, my God.
17 Where you die, I will die,
And there will I be buried.
The Lord do so to me, and more also,
If _anything but_ death parts you and me.”

In order to become an Israelite you had to forsake your god, little g and follow after the One true God, big G. Go to Hebrews 11 and see it was by faith that they too walked.  

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced _them_ and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.  14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland.  15 And truly if they had called to mind that _country_ from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.  16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly _country._ Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> The covenant of promise was that God the Son incarnate would came and take away the sin of the world. That was the promise God made to His covenant people Israel. People from the outside could also become covenant people in the Old Testament as well. Just as Ruth told Naomi.
> 16 But Ruth said:
> 
> “Entreat me not to leave you,
> ...



How do we address this with "God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing?"

I'm trying to see God's timing for his plan to always include the Gentile in relation to to the revelation given to Paul.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 

Romans 9:4-5
They are the people of Israel, chosen to be God's adopted children. God revealed his glory to them. He made covenants with them and gave them his law. He gave them the privilege of worshiping him and receiving his wonderful promises.5 To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Romans 11:12 
Now if the Gentiles were enriched because the people of Israel turned down God's offer of salvation, think how much greater a blessing the world will share when they finally accept it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

In his letter to the saints at Ephesus (Eph. 3:1-11), Paul says, that God by revelation made known to him the "Mystery," which in other Ages had not been made known unto the sons of men, "That the Gentiles should be 'Fellow Heirs,' and of the 'Same Body,' and partakers of His promise in Christ by the Gospel."

In Rom. 16:25,26, Paul speaks of what he calls "My Gospel," which he calls the "Revelation of the Mystery," which was kept "Secret" since the world began, but now is made "manifest." It was the "revelation" that was promised to Paul at his conversion (Acts 26:16-18), and which comprises the "Mysteries of God."  

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,


Personally, I don't have an answer. I can see what Ruth is saying and what it says in Hebrews as well. Then Paul comes along and messes with me.
In the military, I was taught to go with the last message received. To consider the previous messages somehow but the last massage is the utmost one to follow.

Galatians 3:29
If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 13, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> How do we address this with "God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing?"
> 
> I'm trying to see God's timing for his plan to always include the Gentile in relation to to the revelation given to Paul.
> 
> ...


 
*Hosea 2:23  *
23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
And I will have mercy on _her who had_ not obtained mercy;
Then I will say to _those who were_ not My people,
‘You _are_ My people!’
And they shall say, ‘_You are_ my God!’ ”


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> *Hosea 2:23  *
> 23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
> And I will have mercy on _her who had_ not obtained mercy;
> Then I will say to _those who were_ not My people,
> ...



How does that verse and the others in the Old Testament work with God's "timing" you mentioned earlier?

Ephesians 2:13-14
But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,

Ephesians 2:19
Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God's people and also members of his household,

How do we reconcile the Old Testament verses with the timing of Paul's revelation?
"Which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God's holy apostles and prophets?"


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Yet Ruth knew about the mystery. Was she aware of the eternal plan revealed to Paul?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Hosea 3:1 
The LORD said to me, "Go, show your love to your wife again, though she is loved by another man and is an adulteress. Love her as the LORD loves the Israelites, though they turn to other gods and love the sacred raisin cakes."

Hosea 3:5 
Afterward the Israelites will return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They will come trembling to the LORD and to his blessings in the last days.

Romans 11:11 
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:25-27
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.   27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 

God's timing indeed! God will have mercy on whom he will have mercy.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Hosea 1:10-11
"Yet the Israelites will be like the sand on the seashore, which cannot be measured or counted. In the place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'children of the living God.'
11 The people of Judah and the people of Israel will come together; they will appoint one leader and will come up out of the land, for great will be the day of Jezreel.

Romans 9:4-5
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them  proceeds  the human descent of Christ, who is God over all, forever worthy of praise! Amen. 

Romans 11:5 
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

God's timing?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 13, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> *Hosea 2:23  *
> 23 Then I will sow her for Myself in the earth,
> And I will have mercy on _her who had_ not obtained mercy;
> Then I will say to _those who were_ not My people,
> ...



Ok, hope this is the last of my series. Paul quotes Hosea in Romans 9:

Romans 9:25-27
As He says in Hosea: “I will call them My people who are not My people, and I will call her My beloved who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’” 
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: "Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved.

Romans 9 takes us to the Stumbling Stone;

God's timing?


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 15, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> How does that verse and the others in the Old Testament work with God's "timing" you mentioned earlier?
> 
> Ephesians 2:13-14
> But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
> ...




Because God's plan for mankind is all about time. That is why we call it His Story, history!  It is all unfolding in His time. Paul showed up in History precisely when God ordained for him to come.

* Galatians 4:4-5 *
4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law,  5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 15, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> Ok, hope this is the last of my series. Paul quotes Hosea in Romans 9:
> 
> Romans 9:25-27
> As He says in Hosea: “I will call them My people who are not My people, and I will call her My beloved who is not My beloved,” 26and, “It will happen that in the very place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ they will be called ‘sons of the living God.’”
> ...


Absolutely God's timing.Absolutely nothing happens without the knowledge and express will of God. Everything that happens in history is according to the council of His Will. No such thing as chance,or accident,  it is all divine timing, or appointment!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 15, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> Absolutely God's timing.Absolutely nothing happens without the knowledge and express will of God. Everything that happens in history is according to the council of His Will. No such thing as chance,or accident,  it is all divine timing, or appointment!



Then how did people"on the outside" in the Old Testament  become covenant people, as Ruth told Naomi?

If it was within of God's timing;

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Like you said;
"God's plan from the beginning was also to include the gentiles in His timing,"

It's your use of the word "timing." Most holders of the Reformed view don't see "timing" in the equation. They say God works beyond or out of timing.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 15, 2018)

Now if we return to the OP or the Old Testament, the Law was given. This Covenant was given by God to His people in "time."
Later, in God's "timing" Jesus came to redeem the Law. The Law given from God to his people in "time."

Then, within time, God reveals to Paul the mystery/secrets of presenting the gospel/salvation to the Gentiles who were once without hope and God.
Per Romans 11; Israel's rejection brought reconciliation to the world. A time concept revealed to Paul from Jesus. Finally the dividing wall comes down. There is no longer Jew or Gentile. No more strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel.

I would agree it is all about God's timing.

So back to Ruth and Naomi, how does that relate to the timing revelation given to Paul?

I would agree, nothing is left for chance. It is all about God's timing.


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 16, 2018)

*Gen 41:45-52*

                45Pharaoh gave Joseph the name Zaphenath-paneah; and he gave him Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, as his wife. Thus Joseph gained authority over the land of Egypt.46Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh, and went through all the land of Egypt.47During the seven plenteous years the earth produced abundantly.48He gathered up all the food of the seven years when there was plenty in the land of Egypt, and stored up food in the cities; he stored up in every city the food from the fields around it.49So Joseph stored up grain in such abundance—like the sand of the sea—that he stopped measuring it; it was beyond measure.50Before the years of famine came, Joseph had two sons, whom Asenath daughter of Potiphera, priest of On, bore to him.51Joseph named the firstborn Manasseh, “For,” he said, “God has made me forget all my hardship and all my father's house.”52The second he named Ephraim, “For God has made me fruitful in the land of my misfortunes.”
*Exod 2:16-21*

                16The priest of Midian had seven daughters. They came to draw water, and filled the troughs to water their father's flock.17But some shepherds came and drove them away. Moses got up and came to their defense and watered their flock.18When they returned to their father Reuel, he said, “How is it that you have come back so soon today?”19They said, “An Egyptian helped us against the shepherds; he even drew water for us and watered the flock.”20He said to his daughters, “Where is he? Why did you leave the man? Invite him to break bread.”21Moses agreed to stay with the man, and he gave Moses his daughter Zipporah in marriage.
*Exod 4:25-26*

                25But Zipporah took a flint and cut off her son's foreskin, and touched Moses' feet with it, and said, “Truly you are a bridegroom of blood to me!”26So he let him alone. It was then she said, “A bridegroom of blood by circumcision.”
*Deut 23:3-4*

                3No Ammonite or Moabite shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord. Even to the tenth generation, none of their descendants shall be admitted to the assembly of the Lord,4because they did not meet you with food and water on your journey out of Egypt, and because they hired against you Balaam son of Beor, from Pethor of Mesopotamia, to curse you.

Which mean not all are excluded from being converted.
*Gen 17:10-14*

                10This is my covenant, which you shall keep, between me and you and your offspring after you: Every male among you shall be circumcised.11You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskins, and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you.12Throughout your generations every male among you shall be circumcised when he is eight days old, including the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money from any foreigner who is not of your offspring.13Both the slave born in your house and the one bought with your money must be circumcised. So shall my covenant be in your flesh an everlasting covenant.14Any uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin shall be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”
*Exod 12:44*

                44but any slave who has been purchased may eat of it after he has been circumcised;

*Exod 12:48*

                48If an alien who resides with you wants to celebrate the passover to the Lord, all his males shall be circumcised; then he may draw near to celebrate it; he shall be regarded as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it;
*Ruth 1:16-17*

                16But Ruth said, “Do not press me to leave you or to turn back from following you! Where you go, I will go; where you lodge, I will lodge; your people shall be my people, and your God my God.17Where you die, I will die— there will I be buried. May the Lord do thus and so to me, and more as well, if even death parts me from you!”

Then we have the most famous from Ruth, who chose to forsake her own and enter into covenant both with Naomi and Naomi's God!   So there we see that outsiders can and did enter in to covenant with the Old Testament God, which is the same as the New Testament God with a better way to enter!


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 16, 2018)

Ruth went on to marry her kinsman redeemer and was added into the lineage of the bloodline of Jesus' earthly family tree!


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 16, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> Ruth went on to marry her kinsman redeemer and was added into the lineage of the bloodline of Jesus' earthly family tree!



You gave a very good explanation of being grafted into the Commonwealth in the old testament. I do see it, I can picture it. Best explanation ever. Your post #33 & #34 were great, thanks for taking the time to present it so well.

My question though is how do we explain what Paul was given by revelation? Paul say's the gentiles were previously without God and without hope being strangers to the Commonwealth of Israel and the promises.

That a remnant was chosen from Israel and the rest were hardened to allow salvation to come to the Gentiles. Their loss was our gain.
The wall of hostility was finally removed. No longer was their Jew or Gentile, man or woman, free or slave.

This is what Paul said his revelation was. This mystery/secret. His revelation and his mission given from God.


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 16, 2018)

Because God did have a set apart people, that were different even in their diet. That the whole world, those outside the faith would see and desire what they had that was different. The Jewish leaders didn't do their jobs well and excluded the whole lot of them. It is true apart from the religion of the Jews then you were outside the camp. It was an exclusive group, all or nothing. That is also why Ruth said exactly what she said, it was all inclusive. Yes Paul was indeed the Apostle sent to the Gentiles, that even Peter bucks at first, but Paul straightened him right out. So yes, outside the faith meant you were without hope. Just like today, if you are outside the faith in Jesus Christ, you are outside the Hope. For there is one name under heaven given among men where by we must be saved, that is Jesus Christ the righteous. There is no other way to the Father but by me. Said Jesus!


----------



## Israel (Dec 17, 2018)

Spineyman said:


> Because God did have a set apart people, that were different even in their diet. That the whole world, those outside the faith would see and desire what they had that was different. The Jewish leaders didn't do their jobs well and excluded the whole lot of them. It is true apart from the religion of the Jews then you were outside the camp. It was an exclusive group, all or nothing. That is also why Ruth said exactly what she said, it was all inclusive. Yes Paul was indeed the Apostle sent to the Gentiles, that even Peter bucks at first, but Paul straightened him right out. So yes, outside the faith meant you were without hope. Just like today, if you are outside the faith in Jesus Christ, you are outside the Hope. For there is one name under heaven given among men where by we must be saved, that is Jesus Christ the righteous. There is no other way to the Father but by me. Said Jesus!




Ain't it something that Jesus is spoken of as being sacrificed outside the camp! "let us go to Him there, bearing His reproach"

Religion (in the sense of "rules of practice") will always allow for the outward demonstration of something _being done. _It's a vain thing, even at its very "best" when weighed against the new life given in Christ. And vain in both meanings, both a vanity to the man, and vain in that it cannot reveal to nor convert the soul to that which (Whom) can only be revealed by the Spirit.

I do not use your response Spiney as anything other than show of a provoking of thought. It is not that you need any instruction, and from me, least of all. The things you mention..."move in me". Stir me.

We do not know how deeply ingrained this thing of desire "to show" ourselves right by practice is until we begin to follow the Lord. O! then the battle is on. What, who, will reign in the soul? The man who needs to "show himself good" or the man who is _already accepted_ in Christ?

The perfect sense of Jesus Christ then becomes clear to us as we begin to plainly sense this battle taking place in our soul. "Pray in your closet" "do your alms in such manner that your right hand does not even know what the left does" in others words (to me at least) strenuously avoid the pitfall to the soul where it satisfies "itself" in what it has done...or does, or is doing.

Giving is done without any notice to the soul "Now I have done a _'good thing' " _
Prayer _no less. _The man who may say_ "I pray a lot", "I attend much to the things of God", _might just as well be saying to another man..."I breathe very often".

Indeed all, and everything one _might hold_ up as _good_ to demonstrate to another of "standing in God" comes under this spotlight. The life...speaks for itself, and is totally unreliant on man, both _his ability_ to demonstrate and _his ability_ to impart. One cannot even "commend one to the battle" as though by testimony it could show "I have been engaged in a battle of effort", for it is not at all really...it is only, and no less that the Lord (if there be any sense of battle whatsoever) is showing His victory over weak and beggarly elements. The Lord knows what is laid on the altar here, and if it be to Him alone, it must remain...to Him, alone.

No wonder then Paul said, when speaking of those things that might point to his having done anything, lost anything, sacrificed anything at all, endured anything "for the Lord" he said "I speak like a fool". But Paul was pressed to, by whatever the circumstance, to those who looked only on outward things (yet babes in Christ)...to do so. If they were going to weigh by the "outer"...and accord esteem according to them...let them then _chew on_ these things demonstrable. Paul had scars. If need be, he was made willing _to be embarrassed_ as the man showing them. But not without also adding "this is a foolish thing to do". But Paul was willing to appear...more than fool for their sake...the body to which he had been called as first, member, and then (in_ temporality_ only) caretaker. (He was always indeed...relentlessly seeking "to work himself out" of that job. By whatever means and in whatever means pups may be helped to the teat...he stood ready. He knew...once that connection was made, and firm, his work is done. "Till Christ be fully formed".)

Do we yet need such? Are we not to discern by exercise of discipline what is taking place "inside"? This smell to which our noses are to be attuned, this fragrance, this odor...this sensing...is it not made ours in Christ? A stink to one is a welcome fragrance to another. Do we sniff in recognition? Of course we do! We can't escape it! We...smell stuff! Do we smell the restraint of the _Spirit's work_ in a man? Do we see brilliant men (alight by the Spirit's brilliance)...willing to appear fools? Or do we like the unbeliever...yet still see only fool? One to be "easily overlooked" and disregarded? Not "taken to heart"? O! how I thank God for them!

I thank God for the many who appear here, even in this forum, such as it is, that reprove me of my own foolishness, demonstrate a life I sense and have necessity to apprehend...in short...show me Jesus Christ...ALIVE and ACTIVE, and by such...bring discipline to a wild a** of a man so in need of taming and training by the Spirit. They wound me_ not seeking to_, they reprove me _not trying to, _they cripple me_ not wanting to..._by their plain, _and disciplined_ walking after the Spirit. Faithful are the wounds of a friend.

I marvel. And I marvel at this taking place only..."outside the camp" specifically.

"When a man's ways please the Lord He causes even His enemies to be at peace with him".

I marvel at how Jesus makes friends. How Jesus turns enemies to something able to be made "at peace with Him". I surely, as God knows...did not seek to marvel. I sought what I could keep in my "bag" only...to my own benefit. Something taken in I see in new wineskins...and as my own tears in utter demonstration of unfitness.

I cry out both _help!_...and thanks be to God!


----------



## Spineyman (Dec 17, 2018)

Israel, here it is in a nut shell. I realize the longer I walk with the Lord that there is no good thing in me. There are none who do good, no not one. So with Isaiah I cry out as well, I am undone, which means I am in utter ruin.

* Isaiah 6:1-7 *

6 In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His _robe_ filled the temple.  2 Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.  3 And one cried to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy _is_ the Lord of hosts;
The whole earth _is_ full of His glory!”

4 And the posts of the door were shaken by the voice of him who cried out, and the house was filled with smoke.

5 So I said:
“*Woe is me, for I am undone!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King,
The Lord of hosts.”*

6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal _which_ he had taken with the tongs from the altar.  7 And he touched my mouth _with it,_ and said:
“Behold, this has touched your lips;
Your iniquity is taken away,
And your sin purged.”


----------



## Madman (Dec 28, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Everyone has a goat nature. Some also have a sheep nature as well. There is a day when the goat is sent away into the wilderness never to be seen again. God does not "know" the goat.He tells it to depart. He knoweth His sheep. He tells it to inherit the kingdom.
> 
> remember. "I pray not for the world, but they that are in the world".



I believe all have some amount of "sheep nature".  

The church fathers had an interesting analogy of how we ultimately are saved.  There was a King who saw a street child and decided to adopt him.  The king brought him into the palace and placed the prince in charge of teaching and grooming this street child.

It was the responsibility of the street child to watch the prince and follow his every move and direction so that ultimately he could grow into a prince himself.

Ultimately it is about more than just our salvation, it is about our deification.


----------



## gordon 2 (Dec 28, 2018)

So it is that we wrap ourselves into our baptism, deep down we go into our shroud of water, for we have died, and risen to eternal life--born again, are made fresh to a new life in love's grasp. For love killed what was dead in all of us, and birthed what was living in our original makeup: life with Him--life eternal-- wholesome and forever.

And yet, we send our children to kill and to covet... not unlike our fathers did? Our sins purged we claim to be heirs, ours is light we claim, to a city prepared we claim, kingdom inheritors we are, saved I am, craving a second coming as uprights..


----------



## welderguy (Dec 30, 2018)

Madman said:


> I believe all have some amount of "sheep nature".



This is interesting to me. And I'm not in disagreement of that statement. I would only add that some have not received a sheep nature yet.
I believe every knee shall bow. And I also believe that this bowing will be done perfectly and willingly, from a changed soul.(no more goat nature).


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2018)

Madman said:


> I believe all have some amount of "sheep nature".
> 
> The church fathers had an interesting analogy of how we ultimately are saved.  There was a King who saw a street child and decided to adopt him.  The king brought him into the palace and placed the prince in charge of teaching and grooming this street child.
> 
> ...



Was the king God and the prince Jesus? I would agree that it is more than just our salvation. I'm not sure that I understand all I know about deification.

I do know that the Prince wants the street children to have the same relationship that he had with the King.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2018)

That we as street children can achieve the same relationship that the Prince has with the King. That the Son has with his Father.
That the Son wants us to have with his Father and our Father.

I can't even imagine. I must add though that it takes a lot for a Son to want that.

I can't think of anyone that I would want to share my father's sonship with. Not to the point of changing his will.

It's a compassion that I don't have.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 30, 2018)

I can't imagine that tomorrow my Dad told me that he had children all over the world and he wanted me to share everything with them.

The inheritance, the love, the unity, the oneness.

I'm not sure I could do it.


----------



## Madman (Dec 30, 2018)

welderguy said:


> This is interesting to me. And I'm not in disagreement of that statement. I would only add that some have not received a sheep nature yet.
> I believe every knee shall bow. And I also believe that this bowing will be done perfectly and willingly, from a changed soul.(no more goat nature).



Holy Scripture says we are created in the image of God, then there must be a spark.


----------



## Madman (Dec 30, 2018)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't imagine that tomorrow my Dad told me that he had children all over the world and he wanted me to share everything with them.
> 
> The inheritance, the love, the unity, the oneness.
> 
> I'm not sure I could do it.


An infinite God has enough to share with everyone.


----------



## Madman (Dec 30, 2018)

welderguy said:


> This is interesting to me. And I'm not in disagreement of that statement. I would only add that some have not received a sheep nature yet.
> I believe every knee shall bow. And I also believe that this bowing will be done perfectly and willingly, from a changed soul.(no more goat nature).


What makes you believe every knee will bow willingly?


----------



## welderguy (Dec 30, 2018)

Madman said:


> Holy Scripture says we are created in the image of God, then there must be a spark.



Could you clarify this? What do you mean by "spark"?


----------



## welderguy (Dec 30, 2018)

Madman said:


> What makes you believe every knee will bow willingly?



The goodness of God leads us to repentance.  When the goat is commanded to depart, the sheep is more than willing to follow its Shepherd.


----------



## Madman (Dec 31, 2018)

welderguy said:


> Could you clarify this? What do you mean by "spark"?


There must be some part of God in all men.


----------



## Madman (Dec 31, 2018)

welderguy said:


> The goodness of God leads us to repentance.  When the goat is commanded to depart, the sheep is more than willing to follow its Shepherd.


What about these, did the goat not leave?
"They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:42


----------



## welderguy (Dec 31, 2018)

Madman said:


> What about these, did the goat not leave?
> "They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Matt 13:42



These are kingdom parables that Jesus is teaching. The kingdom is now, and the kingdom is within us. This is key.

He says the angels will gather all things that offend... (within us). Same concept as sending away the goat. It's the nature within us that He's dealing with, for His kingdom.
Remember, "thy kingdom come,thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2018)

Madman said:


> I believe all have some amount of "sheep nature".



So as you say that spark of the image is within all. Why then won't every knee bow?

Maybe as mentioned, this is after the goats departure. If so then at some point "every knee will bow."

I guess I'm missing what the discussion is about when you said this;
"What makes you believe every knee will bow willingly?"


----------



## welderguy (Dec 31, 2018)

Madman said:


> There must be some part of God in all men.



I agree. 
And because of that, I also believe this:

2 Corinthians 5:15 
15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Dec 31, 2018)

Every tongue will confess as well. Even those under the earth. 

Willingly? Universally? For salvation or realization? For mercy from punishment?


----------



## Madman (Dec 31, 2018)

welderguy said:


> These are kingdom parables that Jesus is teaching. The kingdom is now, and the kingdom is within us. This is key.
> 
> He says the angels will gather all things that offend... (within us). Same concept as sending away the goat. It's the nature within us that He's dealing with, for His kingdom.
> Remember, "thy kingdom come,thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."


Universal salvation?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 1, 2019)

Madman said:


> Universal salvation?



You (and Hummer) can call it what you like, but I call it the good news. And I haven't always believed this way. I have been wrestling with God over this for a long while now. The more He shows me of His kingdom, the more I believe I've been wrong about some things.
John came preaching the kingdom, which had been hidden. Then immediately after him,Jesus also preached the kingdom. He did that after this was declared:

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Do you believe this was limited to only some of the sin?
1 John 2;2 says the sins of the whole world.

2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 1, 2019)

welderguy said:


> You (and Hummer) can call it what you like, but I call it the good news. And I haven't always believed this way. I have been wrestling with God over this for a long while now. The more He shows me of His kingdom, the more I believe I've been wrong about some things.
> John came preaching the kingdom, which had been hidden. Then immediately after him,Jesus also preached the kingdom. He did that after this was declared:
> 
> John 1:29
> ...



The whole world doesnt always...actually it may never mean the whole world.

Example is here when Paul is speaking of the Gospel going out.

Colossians 1:23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

Roman's 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world


----------



## welderguy (Jan 1, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> The whole world doesnt always...actually it may never mean the whole world.
> 
> Example is here when Paul is speaking of the Gospel going out.
> 
> ...



I do not believe 1 John 2:2 has anything at all to do with the physical geographical "world". The geographical world has no sin that needs propitiation.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2019)

When scripture says things went out to the world, they think it means "to the Gentiles." So perhaps things were hidden to the world(gentiles) and then finally went out to the world.(gentiles)

Just showing another way some see salvation going out to the whole world but maybe not every individual in the whole world.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2019)

welderguy said:


> You (and Hummer) can call it what you like, but I call it the good news. And I haven't always believed this way. I have been wrestling with God over this for a long while now. The more He shows me of His kingdom, the more I believe I've been wrong about some things.
> John came preaching the kingdom, which had been hidden. Then immediately after him,Jesus also preached the kingdom. He did that after this was declared:
> 
> John 1:29
> ...



Welder, have you ever looked at the beliefs of the *Primitive Baptist Universalists*? They were called "No He11ers" by the locals because they didn't believe in eternal punishment in He11.

Specific tenets of PBU theology include:[4]


Universal reconciliation: Christ's atonement was for all humanity, and at Resurrection all humanity will be reunited with Christ for an eternity in Heaven.
He11 is a factor of the temporal world, where temporal sins will be punished by an increased separation from God.
Satan is an entity solely of the temporal world, existing only as "natural man" warring against "spiritual man."
Sin, punishment, and death are factors only of the temporal world, thus ceasing to exist after Resurrection, and sin is punished in the temporal world by a separation from God.
The joy of righteousness is its own reward, so retribution and reward are needed only for the here and now.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primitive_Baptist_Universalist

This book explains some of their points of salvation and election,

They believe the Elect is just for the here and now, the Church;

https://books.google.com/books?id=7Mr-zilSKdgC&pg=PA85&lpg=PA85&dq=Charles+F.+Nickels’+“Salvation+of+All+Mankind;+and+Treatise+on+Predestination,+the+Resurrection+of+the+Dead,+and+a+Bequest,”&source=bl&ots=xQOXqqw_vj&sig=v2qc1ngjWZMqDUiSX4pMxmUx-fw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiP8My66M3fAhWJmuAKHfSFBFcQ6AEwAHoECAAQAQ#v=onepage&q=Charles F. Nickels’ “Salvation of All Mankind; and Treatise on Predestination, the Resurrection of the Dead, and a Bequest,”&f=false


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 1, 2019)

I would say that regardless of God's salvation plan, it would be wrong for us to think God needs our help.


----------



## Madman (Jan 1, 2019)

welderguy said:


> You (and Hummer) can call it what you like, but I call it the good news. And I haven't always believed this way. I have been wrestling with God over this for a long while now. The more He shows me of His kingdom, the more I believe I've been wrong about some things.
> John came preaching the kingdom, which had been hidden. Then immediately after him,Jesus also preached the kingdom. He did that after this was declared:
> 
> John 1:29
> ...


John 1:29 - John is referring to Isaiah's "Servant of God" who die for the transgressions of his people.  Jesus came to John so that the declaration can be made that would stop anyone from thinking that Jesus needed to be baptized to wash away sins.

Forgiveness is available for everyone, but we see not everyone wants forgiveness.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 1, 2019)

Madman said:


> John 1:29 - John is referring to Isaiah's "Servant of God" who die for the transgressions of his people.  Jesus came to John so that the declaration can be made that would stop anyone from thinking that Jesus needed to be baptized to wash away sins.
> 
> Forgiveness is available for everyone, but we see not everyone wants forgiveness.



He that is forgiven much, loveth much. He that is forgiven little, loveth little. Not every man can receive the things of the kingdom.

Jesus accomplished everything He came to do, and He needed not man to do it.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I do not believe 1 John 2:2 has anything at all to do with the physical geographical "world". The geographical world has no sin that needs propitiation.



I dont believe the examples I listed had anything to do with the geographical world either. It was speaking of the people .


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I dont believe the examples I listed had anything to do with the geographical world either. It was speaking of the people .



Good. That means we're on the same page.
But let me ask this. When Paul speaks of God in Christ reconciling all things unto Himself, by the "word(logos) of reconciliation". Do you think God needed man for that, or do you think He accomplished that on His own?
And do you think "all" really means "all"? Or are there things that have not been reconciled?


----------



## Israel (Jan 2, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> I can't imagine that tomorrow my Dad told me that he had children all over the world and he wanted me to share everything with them.
> 
> The inheritance, the love, the unity, the oneness.
> 
> I'm not sure I could do it.




You'd like have to be convinced of the limitlessness of the inheritance and yet...even something more. So in love with the pleasing of someone that what _might seem_ your own relative position couldn't matter less to you? And/or knowing the Father so well in a unity beyond any and all withholding that _none can be found_...in recognition that "what is his"...is absolutely yours, no less.

But...where is this seen? Can it...be? Is there...such a son...in the earth?
Can what "might be" to a man...be made..."this is so"?

Perhaps (?????) if the man is made able to bear entrance into the all of "I cannot", but how could that be done?

Wouldn't he need a guide who entered into all his likewise "I cannot"...but is made able to come out of it..._somehow_...now...being shown as fit guide?  Yeah...who could "do this"? Who would? Enter into all of "I cannot"?

I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 

Who could know the gravity of _day _apart from the likewise knowing of night in full consciousness? What can live in their _own death? _

Did this man testify of it?

For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 

A man once wrote something like "If Paul got it wrong, we are all in trouble"

What if...Paul..._not getting it wrong_ helps us see _what trouble_ we can escape from? Like...all of it?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Good. That means we're on the same page.
> But let me ask this. When Paul speaks of God in Christ reconciling all things unto Himself, by the "word(logos) of reconciliation". Do you think God needed man for that, or do you think He accomplished that on His own?
> And do you think "all" really means "all"? Or are there things that have not been reconciled?



If I remember correctly you believe that salvation was available in the old covenant.  That would make this verse in colossians harder to understand IMO.

The way I see it is, since Adam brought sin in the world man died..(was separated from the presence of God). That death reigned throughout the old covenant, and that covenant could not redeem mankind, it could not put man and God together in relationship. The world was in disorder, but a plan of redemption had been put in place. By Christ becoming a sacrifice on the cross, this made a way to forgive sin, that man may dwell with God again. Order had been brought to the world for all men, but not to all men. We see in Revelation 22 that even though Christ had completed all things and put all enemies under his feet..the righteous would abide in the kingdom, while the wicked were outside the gates..I strongly believe this is where we are today. Christian's with God dwelling inside us have through our lord a refuge ( spiritual kingdom) from the wicked outside...but not only that, the wicked are being invited, " come,take of the water of life which is freely given".
The new covenant system opens salvation for all men, but not all men are taking it.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2019)

Israel said:


> You'd like have to be convinced of the limitlessness of the inheritance and yet...even something more. So in love with the pleasing of someone that what _might seem_ your own relative position couldn't matter less to you? And/or knowing the Father so well in a unity beyond any and all withholding that _none can be found_...in recognition that "what is his"...is absolutely yours, no less.
> 
> But...where is this seen? Can it...be? Is there...such a son...in the earth?
> Can what "might be" to a man...be made..."this is so"?
> ...



Maybe Paul was showing us that some of would get it wrong. That we would ask the Potter, are you sure? 

Romans 11:33-33
For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways! 

Who is this "all?" Is this just a odd way of saying the Jews and the Gentiles?

How untraceable his ways, indeed!


----------



## hawglips (Jan 2, 2019)

Madman said:


> What makes you believe every knee will bow willingly?



I imagine that when His majesty is apparent, the divine spark in even those who have fought against Him will lead them to willingly go to their knees....


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> If I remember correctly you believe that salvation was available in the old covenant.  That would make this verse in colossians harder to understand IMO.
> 
> The way I see it is, since Adam brought sin in the world man died..(was separated from the presence of God). That death reigned throughout the old covenant, and that covenant could not redeem mankind, it could not put man and God together in relationship. The world was in disorder, but a plan of redemption had been put in place. By Christ becoming a sacrifice on the cross, this made a way to forgive sin, that man may dwell with God again. Order had been brought to the world for all men, but not to all men. We see in Revelation 22 that even though Christ had completed all things and put all enemies under his feet..the righteous would abide in the kingdom, while the wicked were outside the gates..I strongly believe this is where we are today. Christian's with God dwelling inside us have through our lord a refuge ( spiritual kingdom) from the wicked outside...but not only that, the wicked are being invited, " come,take of the water of life which is freely given".
> The new covenant system opens salvation for all men, but not all men are taking it.



By this, I am hearing you say that an individual's eternal salvation is dependent upon something he does. I disagree...(see 2 Tim. 1:9)...unless you are meaning something else by "salvation".


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2019)

hawglips said:


> I imagine that when His majesty is apparent, the divine spark in even those who have fought against Him will lead them to willingly go to their knees....



Will they then receive salvation?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> By this, I am hearing you say that an individual's eternal salvation is dependent upon something he does. I disagree...(see 2 Tim. 1:9)...unless you are meaning something else by "salvation".



It is through the hearing and belief in the Gospel. Theres no works for salvation unless you consider faith as a work. All heard the Gospel, but many chose to reject. The same goes today. Many do good works, but without faith it is worthless.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> It is through the hearing and belief in the Gospel. Theres no works for salvation unless you consider faith as a work. All heard the Gospel, but many chose to reject. The same goes today. Many do good works, but without faith it is worthless.



What I'm saying is eternal salvation is not based on a decision that man makes, or anything else he tries to do, for that matter. It is based solely on God's sovereign purpose. Man cannot add a single thing or take away a single thing from it.
When you bring up the verses regarding "those who thirst, let them drink freely", this is referring to the entering into the kingdom. Not obtaining eternal salvation. Big difference.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> What I'm saying is eternal salvation is not based on a decision that man makes, or anything else he tries to do, for that matter. It is based solely on God's sovereign purpose. Man cannot add a single thing or take away a single thing from it.
> When you bring up the verses regarding "those who thirst, let them drink freely", this is referring to the entering into the kingdom. Not obtaining eternal salvation. Big difference.



I dont think there is a difference.  By coming into the kingdom you have been made a child of God.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I dont think there is a difference.  By coming into the kingdom you have been made a child of God.



To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
> This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.


Are you saying you can go to Heaven but not have eternal life?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

Do





j_seph said:


> Are you saying you can go to Heaven but not have eternal life?



J_seph, having(possessing) Eternal Life in this temporal life is Jesus Christ dwelling within you.Being in the kingdom. Please read 1 John 5. It explains how Jesus IS eternal life.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
> This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.



Do you see the Elect as being the individuals elected now or on the earth?(temporal) So maybe the Kingdom is the Church(temporal), and man is elected to that aspect which also includes salvation.

Then later through Christ's redemption, all are saved.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> To enter the kingdom, you must be born again. This is an operation of the Holy Spirit. Not every person is born again. Agree?
> This is not to say they won't go to heaven. It just means they do not posses Eternal Life(Jesus Christ) ((see 1 John 5:20)) in this life.



Actually..To enter the kingdom, Nicodemus a Jew, had to be born again.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do you see the Elect as being the individuals elected now or on the earth?(temporal) So maybe the Kingdom is the Church(temporal), and man is elected to that aspect which also includes salvation.
> 
> Then later through Christ's redemption, all are saved.



As best as I understand it, yes. Except one thing. The kingdom is everlasting not temporal. 
But you are correct, Christ finished the work of redemption.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Actually..To enter the kingdom, Nicodemus a Jew, had to be born again.



None of it has a thing to do with Jew or Gentile. This is part of the mystery that was hidden until John.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> None of it has a thing to do with Jew or Gentile. This is part of the mystery that was hidden until John.



Agree it was part of the mystery, but the Jews were born of Hagar. To enter the kingdom of God they had to be born from above, or from Sarah. This is why it was the Jews that were of the adoption.

Reference Galatians 4:22ff


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Do
> 
> J_seph, having(possessing) Eternal Life in this temporal life is Jesus Christ dwelling within you.Being in the kingdom. Please read 1 John 5. It explains how Jesus IS eternal life.


Let me rephrase the question. Are you saying that if you are not saved that you can still go to Heaven?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> Agree it was part of the mystery, but the Jews were born of Hagar. To enter the kingdom of God they had to be born from above, or from Sarah. This is why it was the Jews that were of the adoption.
> 
> Reference Galatians 4:22ff



I'm born of the Spirit, not Sarah. What you refer to is a type and shadow of the actual real thing, which is the Spirit's quickening.This was Jesus revealing the mystery to Nicodemus who had been blind to it.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Let me rephrase the question. Are you saying that if you are not saved that you can still go to Heaven?



If by saved you mean born again (regenerated), in this life, then yes.
But here's what I believe. There's a day when the goats will be commanded to depart. For some, it is while in this life. For others, it will be at their physical death.Bottom line is that all in heaven will be changed. Nothing will enter that defileth or maketh a lie.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> If by saved you mean born again (regenerated), in this life, then yes.
> But here's what I believe. There's a day when the goats will be commanded to depart. For some, it is while in this life. For others, it will be at their physical death.Bottom line is that all in heaven will be changed. Nothing will enter that defileth or maketh a lie.


What denomination are you? I am sorry but if you are saved, born again you will go to Heaven, if you aren't saved there is only one other place to go.
John 10:28 
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I'm born of the Spirit, not Sarah. What you refer to is a type and shadow of the actual real thing, which is the Spirit's quickening.This was Jesus revealing the mystery to Nicodemus who had been blind to it.



If you're a believer you're of Sarah in the context of Galatians 4:22ff. Sarah represents the new covenant. Jews being born into the old covenant were children of hagar, or they were Ishmael until they came under the faith and were adopted into the family of the promise. IE New Covenant.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

j_seph said:


> What denomination are you? I am sorry but if you are saved, born again you will go to Heaven, if you aren't saved there is only one other place to go.
> John 10:28
> 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.



How does John 10:28 contradict what I've been saying exactly?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> If you're a believer you're of Sarah in the context of Galatians 4:22ff. Sarah represents the new covenant. Jews being born into the old covenant were children of hagar, or they were Ishmael until they came under the faith and were adopted into the family of the promise. IE New Covenant.



I still say the kingdom is not about physical Jew/Gentile, only spiritually, but I don't think it's worth debating in this context.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I still say the kingdom is not about physical Jew/Gentile, only spiritually, but I don't think it's worth debating in this context.



What's your best layman definition of the kingdom?


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> How does John 10:28 contradict what I've been saying exactly?


If the unsaved can go to heaven then that would also have to be true that the saved can go to hades.
There is no in between, you cannot straddle the fence, luke warm will be spue from his mouth. You are either hot or cold, saved or unsaved

What denomination are you?


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

2 Timothy 2:10 
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

In this verse here, it is called the Kingdom of heaven. Not "a" kingdom, not "an" kingdom but the Kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

j_seph said:


> 2 Timothy 2:10
> Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.



That's an interesting verse showing Paul was enduring things...that the elect may also obtain salvation...Interesting because it shows the elect as a group that were depending on Paul's enduring that they may obtain salvation,  yet many doctrines say that only the elect have salvation..Hmmm.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> What's your best layman definition of the kingdom?



It's a state of being  "in Christ" . It's akin to a husband/wife relationship but on a much higher personal level. It is something that we're told that we must press into, even "violently". But it's a rest that is labored for. The kingdom is within us, and the kingdom is everlasting.Its a hard thing to describe but it's glorious.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 2, 2019)

welderguy said:


> It's a state of being  "in Christ" . It's akin to a husband/wife relationship but on a much higher personal level. It is something that we're told that we must press into, even "violently". But it's a rest that is labored for. The kingdom is within us, and the kingdom is everlasting.Its a hard thing to describe but it's glorious.



The husband/wife is the same figurative Paul used in Galatians 4 to describe the two covenants. 

I agree with the rest of your comment, but I would add that the Kingdom is the New Jerusalem,  that us faithful are citizens of, with Christ as our ruling and reigning King.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> The husband/wife is the same figurative Paul used in Galatians 4 to describe the two covenants.
> 
> I agree with the rest of your comment, but I would add that the Kingdom is the New Jerusalem,  that us faithful are citizens of, with Christ as our ruling and reigning King.



I agree.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> That's an interesting verse showing Paul was enduring things...that the elect may also obtain salvation...Interesting because it shows the elect as a group that were depending on Paul's enduring that they may obtain salvation,  yet many doctrines say that only the elect have salvation..Hmmm.


I picked up on that too. Asking myself, what did Paul's endurance have to do with the elect receiving salvation?  I thought Paul was saying that they also may have salvation was referring to himself. But then that would have to mean that Paul was not of the elect.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 2, 2019)

It's as if Paul is enduring prison so that the "elect" also, will obtain salvation. It's as if the "elect" is a different group from the group that Paul and Timothy are in.
From the group that already has salvation.

"they also"


----------



## Madman (Jan 2, 2019)

hawglips said:


> I imagine that when His majesty is apparent, the divine spark in even those who have fought against Him will lead them to willingly go to their knees....


That is why even after seeing his majesty 1/3 of the Angel's fell.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

Madman said:


> That is why even after seeing his majesty 1/3 of the Angel's fell.



But, they were not of the elect angels.?


----------



## j_seph (Jan 2, 2019)

Well I asked twice about your denomination and no reply. Guess it's something you do not like to discuss. Carry on


----------



## welderguy (Jan 2, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Well I asked twice about your denomination and no reply. Guess it's something you do not like to discuss. Carry on



Denomination does not define my beliefs, only the Word spoken to me by the Spirit. If it did, it would be a cult. The majority of the people I attend church with would react similar to you over these things. But that's very understandable. The kingdom is not for everyone in this life. But I love them just the same.


----------



## Madman (Jan 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Denomination does not define my beliefs, only the Word spoken to me by the Spirit. If it did, it would be a cult. The majority of the people I attend church with would react similar to you over these things. But that's very understandable. The kingdom is not for everyone in this life. But I love them just the same.


If your beliefs are outside mainline Christiainty, perhaps the spirit you are listening to is not of God.  1 John 4:1


----------



## welderguy (Jan 3, 2019)

Madman said:


> If your beliefs are outside mainline Christiainty, perhaps the spirit you are listening to is not of God.  1 John 4:1



Oh...so I should always follow the masses, because after all , if the majority is doing something, then it must be right..?...gotcha.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

Madman said:


> If your beliefs are outside mainline Christiainty, perhaps the spirit you are listening to is not of God.  1 John 4:1


1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 3, 2019)

j_seph said:


> 1 John 4:1 - Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
> 2 Peter 2:1 - But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ****able heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
> Matthew 7:15 - Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.



Show me where you think I'm being false , and we will try the spirits.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Show me where you think I'm being false , and we will try the spirits.


Just trying to understand your thought process that the unsaved will still or can still go to heaven. It seems that you talk of there being a Heaven a HeII and some other place as well.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 3, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Just trying to understand your thought process that the unsaved will still or can still go to heaven. It seems that you talk of there being a Heaven a HeII and some other place as well.



Let's look at the text you quoted above in 2 Peter 2:1.
Do you think the false prophet was a "saved" individual?  I ask because it says the Lord "bought" him. If the Lord bought him, wouldn't you think he's going to heaven? If not, why not?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Denomination does not define my beliefs, only the Word spoken to me by the Spirit. If it did, it would be a cult. The majority of the people I attend church with would react similar to you over these things. But that's very understandable. The kingdom is not for everyone in this life. But I love them just the same.


Won't proclaim it to those that he loves.

Proclaims it to us.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

None can be saved but by Jesus Christ, through their own wickedness and sin, some will perish for whom Jesus died. He died so that all may be saved and have ever lasting life. Jesus paid the price for all, it is up to an individual to accept him or not. The price was paid for us all.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 3, 2019)

j_seph said:


> None can be saved but by Jesus Christ, through their own wickedness and sin, some will perish for whom Jesus died. He died so that all may be saved and have ever lasting life. Jesus paid the price for all, it is up to an individual to accept him or not. The price was paid for us all.



You're saying salvation is "up to an individual"?
You sure?
If that is true, I think we're all in trouble.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> You're saying salvation is "up to an individual"?
> You sure?
> If that is true, I think we're all in trouble.


I am saying this, I have a step son who is not saved. He has not accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. You have a choice...………..to accept him or to deny him.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

And no offense to you but to know that my stepson could sit at home, pull up an internet browser, and search the unsaved go to heaven and have eternal life and for him to possibly believe that does offend me.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 3, 2019)

j_seph said:


> And no offense to you but to know that my stepson could sit at home, pull up an internet browser, and search the unsaved go to heaven and have eternal life and for him to possibly believe that does offend me.



I think , in your mind, you have given me way too much power.
If God wants your stepson saved, there's nothing he, or I, or you, or anyone else can do to prevent that. I pray that you'll find peace and rest for that anxious mind of yours brother.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I think , in your mind, you have given me way too much power.
> If God wants your stepson saved, there's nothing he, or I, or you, or anyone else can do to prevent that. I pray that you'll find peace and rest for that anxious mind of yours brother.


I ask that you please DO NOT pray for me sir. Just that 1st verse there tells you that YOU have to confess it, and just confessing it will not do.

Romans 10:9-10 9That if thou shalt *confess with thy mouth the LORD Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart* that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:5 - Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 16:30-33
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2019)

Compare this to Romans 11. A remnant was elected out of Israel by God's grace alone. It had to be by grace alone or it wasn't grace. 

What happened to the remainder of Israel? "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” 
Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.  And so all Israel will be saved. "This is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.” 

As far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2019)

Just as you who formerly disobeyed God have now received mercy through their disobedience,  so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 

For God has consigned all men to disobedience so that He may have mercy on them all.

Think about what Paul is saying, God consigned all men to disobedience.
So that he may have mercy on them all.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2019)

Paul said about God;
O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

He said this about this passage concerning election, disobedience to all, and salvation to all.

Something is going on that Paul knew we would question God about. What was it? What was the issue that we would question?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 3, 2019)

j_seph said:


> I am saying this, I have a step son who is not saved. He has not accepted Jesus Christ as his personal savior. You have a choice...………..to accept him or to deny him.


Only a moron would accept Christ as his personal savior when he does not believe in Christ. Belief is an evidence of salvation and not the cause of salvation.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 3, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Only a moron would accept Christ as his personal savior when he does not believe in Christ. Belief is an evidence of salvation and not the cause of salvation.


_so you re saying one can say say yeah I believe there is a God and a man named Jesus used to walk the earth then they are saved?_


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 3, 2019)

Maybe there is a difference in believing God and Jesus exist to a belief that there is a God who gave us his Son to die for our sins?

In one aspect you believe God and Jesus exist. In the other you believe and accept that, Jesus the Son, is your salvation from eternal death.


----------



## Madman (Jan 4, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Oh...so I should always follow the masses, because after all , if the majority is doing something, then it must be right..?...gotcha.


Christ built his church and taught it what to believe, if you stand against it so be it.  Many have stood against Christ for centuries, many cults have been born because those men listened to the wrong spirits.

A man alone is in poor company.

Matthew 16:18


----------



## welderguy (Jan 4, 2019)

Madman said:


> Christ built his church and taught it what to believe, if you stand against it so be it.  Many have stood against Christ for centuries, many cults have been born because those men listened to the wrong spirits.
> 
> A man alone is in poor company.
> 
> Matthew 16:18



I'm teachable. If I'm in error, please show me through scripture where I've taken a wrong turn. But we must consider all scripture carefully.


----------



## Madman (Jan 4, 2019)

Dec 12, 2018
#16
W
*welderguy*
*Senior Member*
gemcgrew said:
I have never heard it said quite this way. There is something there that is causing me to hesitate in agreeing completely, but I am compelled to fully consider it.

Thanks for that.
Can anyone or any thing really depart from a God that is everywhere present and nowhere absent?
But, I fully believe that a nature can be fully annihilated. Light banishes darkness.


Let's start with post #16 

Are you saying that God will force himself upon someone by annihilating that person's desire to spend eternity apart from the beatific vision?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 4, 2019)

> Are you saying that God will force himself upon someone by annihilating that person's desire to spend eternity apart from the beatific vision?



I believe what you describe here is exactly what He is accomplishing through regeneration NOW for an elect chosen. These are His bride that He is preparing for His Son. I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.


----------



## Madman (Jan 4, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I believe what you describe here is exactly what He is accomplishing through regeneration NOW for an elect chosen. These are His bride that He is preparing for His Son. I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
> There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.


So the answer is "yes".  God forces himself on certain people even if it is against their will.

There is nothing in Holy Scripture nor has the church believed in 2100 years of existence that God forces men to love him and desire him.

You would have to show me where you get that idea.


----------



## Madman (Jan 4, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
> There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.



Why do you believe 144,000 represents the bride?  why are only that number prepared for salvation?  What about "God so loved the world....."  or " God wishes no one should perish............, or "God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself........."?

There is no Biblical evidence nor church teaching that points to double predestination, that belief is only 500 years old.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 4, 2019)

Madman said:


> So the answer is "yes".  God forces himself on certain people even if it is against their will.
> 
> There is nothing in Holy Scripture nor has the church believed in 2100 years of existence that God forces men to love him and desire him.
> 
> You would have to show me where you get that idea.



He draws us gently(no force needed). He quickens us from our dead spiritual state and puts a new heart within us. He takes the stoney heart and gives us a heart of flesh. Suddenly, our will is changed in the process. His love abounds in our hearts so that we are filled with love, not only for Him, but for others.Even for our enemies. I can give you texts supporting all this, but I'm pretty sure you know them as well as I do.


----------



## Israel (Jan 4, 2019)

Is not Jesus Christ the man in whom is plainly shown..."not my will, but thine be done?"

Does he need permission to show himself to any man? Do you...or I...need permission _to be seen_? LOL...God forbid! We may _of all things_ contrariwise find ourselves seeking permission to be hid...instead! (which very much comes in consequence...of our own wanting to be seen)

Oh, how the once boastful rich man, once parading himself, comes to wish in the time of home invasion..."where can I hide? (O God, why didn't I keep my trap shut about all my riches?")

Making myself known has elevated me to worthy target status! I do indeed...deserve this. (if he is granted sobering grace) If not...he'll find out just how much he is able to "salvage". When the pilfering is done.

In this (Jesus Christ's) showing of himself as the man who submits to a will "not his own", the _only man_ in whom a will_ not his own_ is found, that is the will of God (though His will was never tarnished with sin!)...does not_ his allowance _of being seen of man also not bring with it the overwhelming knowing of that will in which he alone worked...the will of God?

What man could not, would not...find _this will_, at work against _his own_? Does God need man's permission to present His will? Need God make reason or apology to man, and his will, for showing His will?

In the beginning was the logos...

The man who would refuse incursion of "God's will" must take into account...it is only by the will of God he even exists to do so.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2019)

Madman said:


> So the answer is "yes".  God forces himself on certain people even if it is against their will.
> 
> There is nothing in Holy Scripture nor has the church believed in 2100 years of existence that God forces men to love him and desire him.
> 
> You would have to show me where you get that idea.


Is the "call" universal? If so what is Romans 11 telling us? A remnant elected by grace, the rest hardened until the full number of Gentiles come in, then all Israel will be saved.

Is that not God the Potter not forcing man a certain way to make his story happen the way he wants it too? Then back up to Romans 9, Jacob I loved but Esau I hated. I'm not saying he "forced" Jacob but I do see a lot of control on that individual.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 4, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I believe what you describe here is exactly what He is accomplishing through regeneration NOW for an elect chosen. These are His bride that He is preparing for His Son. I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
> There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.



So you see the elect as the bride? Some people see the Remnant of Israel as the elect. Maybe the Remnant as the bride or Jerusalem(Israel) as the bride or the Church as the bride.

What is the function of the elect other than becoming the bride? Do they have a special purpose within the physical world?

Even if the Remnant of Israel was the Elect, what was their function? Why did God reserve them for himself and harden the rest of Israel?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 4, 2019)

Madman said:


> Why do you believe 144,000 represents the bride?  why are only that number prepared for salvation?  What about "God so loved the world....."  or " God wishes no one should perish............, or "God was in Christ Jesus reconciling the world to himself........."?
> 
> There is no Biblical evidence nor church teaching that points to double predestination, that belief is only 500 years old.





Artfuldodger said:


> So you see the elect as the bride? Some people see the Remnant of Israel as the elect. Maybe the Remnant as the bride or Jerusalem(Israel) as the bride or the Church as the bride.
> 
> What is the function of the elect other than becoming the bride? Do they have a special purpose within the physical world?
> 
> Even if the Remnant of Israel was the Elect, what was their function? Why did God reserve them for himself and harden the rest of Israel?



I believe they are all synonymous. The bride is a called out people, predestined to be conformed. They are for His glory. They are they that have the promises and favor of God in this life and the next. They are the Jacob(Israel) of this Earth.


----------



## gordon 2 (Jan 4, 2019)

( Just a thought. I hope that evangelicals for all their bible views in agreement and of disagreement  get recognized positively when it counts the most. Or I sincerely hope that y'all are elect, in the narrow gate and  all the dissenters which were your fathers get in too at the last trumpet and that their differing views which produced you, produced the opposite of being in vain, that indeed y'all are the elect...) Sincere, I hope.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 4, 2019)

j_seph said:


> _so you re saying one can say say yeah I believe there is a God and a man named Jesus used to walk the earth then they are saved?_


No. I didn't say that at all. I chose my words carefully and presented them in a particular way. I did this hoping to avoid nonsense.

I did not account for you though.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 4, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I believe what you describe here is exactly what He is accomplishing through regeneration NOW for an elect chosen. These are His bride that He is preparing for His Son. I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
> There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.


So what is the purpose of everyone else if only a select few are gonna be selected?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> So what is the purpose of everyone else if only a select few are gonna be selected?


To shew his wrath, make his power known and to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. (See Romans 9)


----------



## j_seph (Jan 5, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> To shew his wrath, make his power known and to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. (See Romans 9)


So if he has already selected the elite what purpose would he have to show his wrath? If they are already chosen then they are already going to do what he wants and be what he wants. No need to scare them into it.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 5, 2019)

@gemcgrew and @welderguy 
Who has control of this world and keeping the order of it today?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> So if he has already selected the elite what purpose would he have to show his wrath?


To make his power known and to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory. (See Romans 9)



j_seph said:


> If they are already chosen then they are already going to do what he wants and be what he wants. No need to scare them into it.


They are already chosen and going to do what He wants and be what He wants. He wants to scare them into it. (See Acts 22:6-11)

Now what?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> @gemcgrew and @welderguy
> Who has control of this world and keeping the order of it today?


God does. It is why you are striving with Him.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 5, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I believe what you describe here is exactly what He is accomplishing through regeneration NOW for an elect chosen. These are His bride that He is preparing for His Son. I also believe that not everyone is elected to be the bride. I don't believe this excludes them from heaven, only from being the bride.
> There is a number of people (144,000) spoken of in Revelation. It's a figurative number. I believe it represents this bride.


You mention the 144,000. Are you per chance jehovah witness?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 5, 2019)

j_seph said:


> You mention the 144,000. Are you per chance jehovah witness?


 He may be or he may have read it in scripture somewhere.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 6, 2019)

j_seph said:


> You mention the 144,000. Are you per chance jehovah witness?



Lol
No

Regarding your son:

Luke 14:26
26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.


----------



## j_seph (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Lol
> No
> 
> Regarding your son:
> ...


Is saying this
as His followers, are we willing to place Him in first position and place the most important people in our lives in second place?


----------



## hummerpoo (Jan 7, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Is saying this
> as His followers, are we willing to place Him in first position and place the most important people in our lives in second place?


Or, declaritively:
His followers will place Him in first position and place themselves, along with all else, in their carnal lives, in second place.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

j_seph said:


> Is saying this
> as His followers, are we willing to place Him in first position and place the most important people in our lives in second place?



You nailed it brother. That's pressing into the kingdom that is "at hand" He enables us to do that through the liberty He has given us in Christ.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2019)

The 144,000 were all Israelites...


----------



## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> The 144,000 were all Israelites...



Spiritual Jews. Yes


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Spiritual Jews. Yes


No sir. The number may be figurative, but they are 12,000 of the 12 tribes.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> No sir. The number may be figurative, but they are 12,000 of the 12 tribes.



I agree that is what's doing the representing.
But what that actually represents is what I'm declaring.. Spiritual Jews. (elect)


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I agree that is what's doing the representing.
> But what that actually represents is what I'm declaring.. Spiritual Jews. (elect)


I agree they were the elect, but they were also the remnant. They were the Israelites that put away the teachings of the priesthood and came into Christianity.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 7, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I agree they were the elect, but they were also the remnant. They were the Israelites that put away the teachings of the priesthood and came into Christianity.



I think you're mixing spiritual with physical again. That has been the most prevalent disagreement between you and I for so long. But I enjoy conversing with you Hobbs.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 7, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I think you're mixing spiritual with physical again. That has been the most prevalent disagreement between you and I for so long. But I enjoy conversing with you Hobbs.



I figured that would be a deal breaker, since you've been taught and believe in election. 
So, now you face a dilemma you're currently working out. How couldJesus sacrifice for all men, but only some are elect? There's universalism that could solve that problem.  Then there's the way I believe,  that Jesus made a way that all men could be saved through Christs sacrifice if they believe. I see a Gospel message going out to the living and the dead at Christs earthly ministry, for those that would hear.

John 5 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to havelife in Himself, 

God Bless.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 7, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I figured that would be a deal breaker, since you've been taught and believe in election.
> So, now you face a dilemma you're currently working out. How couldJesus sacrifice for all men, but only some are elect? There's universalism that could solve that problem.  Then there's the way I believe,  that Jesus made a way that all men could be saved through Christs sacrifice if they believe. I see a Gospel message going out to the living and the dead at Christs earthly ministry, for those that would hear.
> 
> John 5 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to havelife in Himself,
> ...


 
What was God's purpose in electing the remnant of Jews? Why were they elected by grace and not works? What is different about their election vs other Christians?


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> What was God's purpose in electing the remnant of Jews? Why were they elected by grace and not works? What is different about their election vs other Christians?



I'm afraid my answer to that would take the discussion way off track, but as we recently saw in scripture, election does not equal salvation.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I'm afraid my answer to that would take the discussion way off track, but as we recently saw in scripture, election does not equal salvation.
> 
> 2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.



Paul was laboring for those that were called(elect)to the kingdom.(just as Peter was in 2 Pet.1)

2 Peter 1:8-11
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2019)

2 Timothy 2:10 clearly says salvation. I don't differentiate entering the kingdom from salvation, but if you do, you cant make 2 Timothy 2:10 about entering the kingdom when it clearly says Paul was enduring for the elects sake that they may also receive salvation....election cannot mean salvation in that text.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> 2 Timothy 2:10 clearly says salvation. I don't differentiate entering the kingdom from salvation, but if you do, you cant make 2 Timothy 2:10 about entering the kingdom when it clearly says Paul was enduring for the elects sake that they may also receive salvation....election cannot mean salvation in that text.



See that's just it. I'm not differentiating salvation with entering the kingdom. I say they are synonymous. I say all are going to heaven. That's not what I'm calling salvation here.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> See that's just it. I'm not differentiating salvation with entering the kingdom. I say they are synonymous. I say all are going to heaven. That's not what I'm calling salvation here.



I guess if Paul believed that way he wouldnt have had to endure anything.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I guess if Paul believed that way he wouldnt have had to endure anything.



Why would you say that?
He endured hard persecution for preaching grace over law. 
Will-worshippers always get upset when they're told they don't have a hand in helping God get people to heaven.
(not unlike today)


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2019)

I say that because if everyone has eternal life in heaven,  why bother preaching? Why bother with the Gospel? Why endure any persecution?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 8, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I say that because if everyone has eternal life in heaven,  why bother preaching? Why bother with the Gospel? Why endure any persecution?



The kingdom. That's why. It's a really big deal. It was hidden for ages, then all of a sudden John comes on the scene preaching it. Then Jesus comes right behind him preaching it. Even while Jesus was preaching it, he told about it in parables because it was still hidden from certain ones.
For the ones it is intended for, it is worth even persecution to know of it. Paul knew that and was willing to endure it for the elect's sake. I'm glad he did.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 8, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> election does not equal salvation.


Election is not salvation. Election is unto salvation.


hobbs27 said:


> Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


When a sentence starts with "therefore", stop and consider what it is there for.

"the word of God is not bound." "Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory."

Paul being bound is the reason we have this letter to Timothy.

By the will of God.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> The kingdom. That's why. It's a really big deal. It was hidden for ages, then all of a sudden John comes on the scene preaching it. Then Jesus comes right behind him preaching it. Even while Jesus was preaching it, he told about it in parables because it was still hidden from certain ones.
> For the ones it is intended for, it is worth even persecution to know of it. Paul knew that and was willing to endure it for the elect's sake. I'm glad he did.


And , had he not?
I think you're differentiating between kingdom and salvation...are you not?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> I say that because if everyone has eternal life in heaven,  why bother preaching? Why bother with the Gospel? Why endure any persecution?



Did Paul have to endure hardship for the sake of the elect? The remnant of Jews elected by grace?
Regardless of who the Elect is, if they are chosen by grace, what does any man have to do with it or about it?

Maybe if I ask this way, was the elect of Israel chosen by grace and not works? Just them, nobody else. Not the rest of Israel or the Gentiles. 
What did Paul's suffering have to do with God choosing the remnant of Jews by grace?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 8, 2019)

welderguy said:


> The kingdom. That's why. It's a really big deal. It was hidden for ages, then all of a sudden John comes on the scene preaching it. Then Jesus comes right behind him preaching it. Even while Jesus was preaching it, he told about it in parables because it was still hidden from certain ones.
> For the ones it is intended for, it is worth even persecution to know of it. Paul knew that and was willing to endure it for the elect's sake. I'm glad he did.



We had a discussion or many about the Kingdom over the years. Jesus, as you say, preached the Kingdom. Then later Paul preached the Gospel.
It sometimes does appear to be two different things. Go and preach the Kingdom. Then go and preach the gospel. Just something I've wondered about and if there is a difference.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 9, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Did Paul have to endure hardship for the sake of the elect? The remnant of Jews elected by grace?
> Regardless of who the Elect is, if they are chosen by grace, what does any man have to do with it or about it?
> 
> Maybe if I ask this way, was the elect of Israel chosen by grace and not works? Just them, nobody else. Not the rest of Israel or the Gentiles.
> What did Paul's suffering have to do with God choosing the remnant of Jews by grace?



If the Israelites were Gods chosen people, how does that differ from them being the elect? Chosen...elected..?

Paul suffered to spread the Gospel to the gentiles that they start coming in, receiving the Holy Ghost and make the Jews jealous.  Their jealousy was another calling for them to come in to Christ. Paul knew when the full number of gentiles came in , it was going to be lights out for those old covenant Jews, his kinsmen.They had 40 years to come in. From Jesus ministry to the destruction of Jerusalem.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 9, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> And , had he not?
> I think you're differentiating between kingdom and salvation...are you not?



Let me try to simplify what I'm saying, because I don't think you're seeing what I'm trying to show you.
First of all, I'm saying Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.(every individual)(1 John 2:2)
But, not every individual will have salvation IN THIS LIFE. (enter the kingdom)(Matt.7:21)
The term "salvation" has been so misused that it has lost it's true meaning.
Now, here's the thing. You must be regenerated (born again) to even see the kingdom. And furthermore, you must be regenerated (born again) to be enabled(set at liberty) to enter the kingdom. This is where the rubber hits the road. As called out disciples, we have been given instructions how to enter this kingdom. And not all the called out will follow these instructions in this life. Remember the ten virgins parable. Half were diligent and half were not. The straight gate is not the easy gate to enter.Most go headlong through the wide one. Sometimes it even requires severing body parts(figuratively) to enter. It may require you to distance yourself from certain family members (spiritually). This kingdom is not for the fearful or the faint of heart. It's for the Joshuas and the Caleb's of this world. And just as Joshua admonished the Hebrews to choose this day whom they would serve, Paul also was still doing that hoping to embolden his hearers to "enter the land". The kingdom.


----------



## hobbs27 (Jan 9, 2019)

*John 3:16 New King James Version (NKJV)*
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Looks like not everyone gets eternal life.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 9, 2019)

hobbs27 said:


> *John 3:16 New King James Version (NKJV)*
> 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
> 
> Looks like not everyone gets eternal life.



Exactly.

eternal life=knowing God

John 17
 2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.


----------



## Israel (Jan 10, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Election is not salvation. Election is unto salvation.
> 
> When a sentence starts with "therefore", stop and consider what it is there for.
> 
> ...



I have a hope that what is worthy of being said, no less bears repeating.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 11, 2019)

Israel said:


> I have a hope that what is worthy of being said, no less bears repeating.



Brother Israel, do you agree that there are real deterrents to our entering the kingdom in this life?


----------



## Israel (Jan 11, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Brother Israel, do you agree that there are real deterrents to our entering the kingdom in this life?



I believe you to be happy if you do not find this response dodgy or offense: 

What is real is greater than the deterrents.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 11, 2019)

Israel said:


> I have a hope that what is worthy of being said, no less bears repeating.


I wondered why you so seldom quote me.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 12, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Brother Israel, do you agree that there are real deterrents to our entering the kingdom in this life?


All deterrents work together for good to the elect.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 12, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> All deterrents work together for good to the elect.



Yes they do.
Is there anything we can do, or should do, to avoid these deterrents?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 12, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Yes they do.
> Is there anything we can do, or should do, to avoid these deterrents?


I am compelled to pray for more of them. I am deterred from making my own way.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 12, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> I am compelled to pray for more of them. I am deterred from making my own way.



Would you pray for the deceitfulness of riches(love of money). which could deter you from the kingdom?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 12, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Would you pray for the deceitfulness of riches(love of money). which could deter you from the kingdom?


I wouldn't, because I have already been there and learned from it. I also have awareness of the results of having gone through it. Knowing the results, I wouldn't go back and change it, even if I could.

That is only one of many acts of providence that caused me to cling tighter to Christ.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Would you pray for the deceitfulness of riches(love of money). which could deter you from the kingdom?



Are there works that will keep individuals(non-elect) from the Kingdom, that won't keep them from receiving salvation? If so what are these works?

Also is it just the works that keeps them from the Kingdom?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

I would say, from reading Romans 9-11, that God does create bad clay to show the good clay "the riches of His glory."

Even the re-probate learns lessons from bad works such as "the love of money."

Regardless, God also chose a remnant out of Israel based on grace alone.

Maybe it's all just another mystery not yet revealed.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

The Primitive Baptist Universalist believe the Elect was chosen from the "all" of God's children to be a witness for Christ and an earthly preserver of God's righteousness.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 12, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> I wouldn't, because I have already been there and learned from it. I also have awareness of the results of having gone through it. Knowing the results, I wouldn't go back and change it, even if I could.
> 
> That is only one of many acts of providence that caused me to cling tighter to Christ.



I tend more to pray "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".

...but that's just me.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 12, 2019)

welderguy said:


> I tend more to pray "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil".
> 
> ...but that's just me.


I tend more to not mix categories.

...but that's just me.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 12, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> I tend more to not mix categories.
> 
> ...but that's just me.



So, if there's something you haven't experienced yet(let's just say homosexuality), are you telling me that you would pray for that temptation, so that you would learn from it?


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 12, 2019)

welderguy said:


> So, if there's something you haven't experienced yet(let's just say homosexuality), are you telling me that you would pray for that temptation, so that you would learn from it?


Why are you asking me if I am telling you something that I haven't said? How is your thinking so warped that you ended up here?

Why would I continue responding to you while you handle my words so carelessly?


----------



## welderguy (Jan 12, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Why are you asking me if I am telling you something that I haven't said? How is your thinking so warped that you ended up here?
> 
> Why would I continue responding to you while you handle my words so carelessly?



Nevermind then


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> I wouldn't, because I have already been there and learned from it. I also have awareness of the results of having gone through it. Knowing the results, I wouldn't go back and change it, even if I could.
> 
> That is only one of many acts of providence that caused me to cling tighter to Christ.



I'm assuming you have learned from the trial of deceitfulness of riches(love of money). You are glad that God presented you with this trial

I don't think it's a warped way of thinking. You admit that you learned from it.
Let me ask of myself, would you welcome God testing you with the trial of homosexuality to show you the err of your ways as with your comparison with the love of money?


----------



## Artfuldodger (Jan 12, 2019)

The old homosexuality providence test. It sure does throw a damper on the situation of welcoming trials and tribulations.

I personally have already been tested. So I can say, thank you God for testing me. I passed, as not my weakness. Possibly not much for me to learn from it.
I must say though that I did and have failed the lust of women test. I have also failed the jealousy trial, the anger tribulation, the gossiper trial, the fornication tribulation, etc.

The forgiving others test? I have completely and utterly failed at passing that test. If God is looking for My weakness, that is it, he has found it.
He need not look any further.

I may be able to overcome my hatred, my jealousy, my lust, my anger, but my ability to forgive others? I'm not there yet. Even with God's help, testing, trials, and tribulations.


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 13, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> Let me ask of myself, would you welcome God testing you with the trial of homosexuality to show you the err of your ways as with your comparison with the love of money?


Of course. I welcome anything that God decrees to prove my faith, that I may be more aware of my dependence upon Christ.


----------



## Israel (Jan 13, 2019)

Artfuldodger said:


> The old homosexuality providence test. It sure does throw a damper on the situation of welcoming trials and tribulations.
> 
> I personally have already been tested. So I can say, thank you God for testing me. I passed, as not my weakness. Possibly not much for me to learn from it.
> I must say though that I did and have failed the lust of women test. I have also failed the jealousy trial, the anger tribulation, the gossiper trial, the fornication tribulation, etc.
> ...



That's an interesting perspective.



> The forgiving others test? I have completely and utterly failed at passing that test. If God is looking for My weakness, that is it, he has found it.
> He need not look any further.



Not because I can find fault with it, but because I think I understand it in some common experience.
Is it correct to surmise such "knowing" of weakness came to you after what we commonly call..."receiving the Lord"...being "in Christ"...even "a Christian"?

How odd that would seem on the face of it. But, like I have said, I believe I share that commonness of experience with you.

In whatever way, fashion, form of entrance light appears to us and we acknowledge it (if the light of Christ) we have entered into His life. At least that's how it appears to us. "Jesus is Lord", I am a christian, and off we go into this new life. But we may find out the things we say, and even say we believe, and confess readily...somehow in the saying aren't met yet in our experience.

I mean...what "christian" wouldn't say "God saw my need, and weakness, darkness and utter lostness...and Christ is revealed and given now as all sufficiency" I mean...isn't that our confession in some fashion or way? Yet...even after this...we discover many things.

But...is it safe to say to ourselves "how silly this sounds" that God would be about testing us to show the very weakness He has already known (did God need to find out where we fail?) in His provision of Christ for man?

What I mean is, God already well knows how much we need the atoning work of Christ supplied, what does He lack in any form and fashion about the frailty of man? The weakness...even failings...of man? Yet we do say such things...don't we?



> "If God is looking for my weakness..."



Perhaps it is quite reversed...it was when we said "weakness" we really had no idea to the depths of that, at all. Oh, surely...God has already known! If not...why such a radical need for the bloody slaughter of His own Son? Yet it now seems the very One saving us...is leading us into a knowing in depth that we could not have even previously imagined. There is substance of things now...substance of such weightiness that once we handled with almost a frivolity. A casualness. Some even, by rote and repetition.
We become convicted of a reality of matters, a hard and immutable firmness of things...that once (though we may have thought we saw clearly)...now are known, and in some way even understood...whose "once" seeing is now made plain as vague, almost formless and misty, though we confidently (at that time) believed we saw.
Oh! desperation! What remains? For just as surely as I believed I once saw...I am no less now, believing I see...not much different! I thought I saw, and now believe I think I see...I mean..."How much need of Christ is there?"!!!!!

I am convinced were you and I left to seeing no more of our need of Christ than at any time we may yet presently see...we are lost men. This leading into what may appear to us as "many failures" is precisely the work of God...to answer that question..."How much need of Christ is there?"!!!!!

And for the revelation of that sufficiency.


----------



## welderguy (Jan 14, 2019)

gemcgrew said:


> Of course. I welcome anything that God decrees to prove my faith, that I may be more aware of my dependence upon Christ.



Luke 22:31-34
31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Attaboy Glenn!


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 14, 2019)

welderguy said:


> Luke 22:31-34
> 31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
> 32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
> 
> Attaboy Glenn!


Not me Welder. We boast in the Lord.


----------



## Israel (Jan 14, 2019)

Peter explains a lot to us.
From the most sublime confessions and admissions to (what we may think or see) as the most boneheaded blunders in speaking and deportment that stick out like a sore thumb. But maybe these are less included for an exposition of Peter's estate than they are for our own. 

How can a man who, by speaking, appears to be in possession of such a mystery and conviction then so easily progress to appearing as though he believed himself God's counselor? How can this be? 

I only marveled at it "in Peter" till I was made fit to laugh at it in myself. Laugh, at myself. God forbid I stop.

We all know the stories. The scenarios. The accounts.

"Thou art the Christ!"

And 

"far be it from you Lord..." (Didja really say Satan?!!!!)

Or


Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

And 

Peter answered and said unto him, Though all _men_ shall be offended because of thee, _yet_ will I never be offended. 

Was Peter_ tempted to _Satan's turf, or did Jesus simply recognize he was already tearing up divots all over Satan's course?

"Lovest thou me?" a few times.
Yes, at first.
Yes, at second.
But third? 
"Lord, you know all things"

Peter did not deny loving the Lord, and even there went on to affirm it. But not without being "deeply hurt" at Jesus' repetition.

I don't know if any of us ever escapes this repetition of question, nor find we ourselves somewhat offended in its persistence. Jesus already knows us, knows how very seriously..."we take ourselves".

Affections...and especially those we consider "deep" we don't much like up for the probing. "I know what I love! I don't need anyone's examination to know it!" And for the most part we prefer to believe we are moved by them, and never some other, lesser, or poorer form of motive. 

"I move in love", not from a craven fear, not from some avoidance of something, not in flight...but "always _from the positive"_...we may discover is a very very fond way of thinking of ourselves.

We may tell ourselves "I witness of Christ...for the sake of others" or "I, like Paul (oh how many trip here, as in ego tripping, and tripping fall) endure such and such for the sake of the body, to enlighten it!" 

"I"...am a fit laborer!


"All 'I do' is by and for the love of Christ alone!"

When these hiding spots are disclosed to us as what they are, it would appear our own treasury of goodness is left so unmistakably revealed as corrupt and useless, so plainly paraded to us as the idol it is, and has been to us...even what we may be allowed to have once perceived as our "deepest" affection...laughable. And at the same time such a desolation of soul may grip as toward the motion of the purest cry we have ever uttered..."mercy Lord, mercy!" Mercy!_ for me_!

Where once _we believed_ we "opted" for it, and Him,...we may find a persuasion to a delight that Jesus Christ is not_ made_ _optional_ to man, to any man, to all "of man", ...and glad, _most of all_, this is made clear to our own self. There _is_ no where else...for standing. There is, as brother Lewis so rightly penned, "no other stream". No other place to either drink, or swim. 

I don't think any of us ever knew how "in over our heads" we were called. Our convictions of our own competence ran far deeper than kindness would allow to an immediate and full disclosure. But, instantly nevertheless, they are made known!

And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as _was_ Aaron. 
The writer of Hebrews reminds us.

In whatever measure a ministry is revealed to us, a service in Christ to which we may be persuaded is toward us of Christ, may we all be fully persuaded and found faithful.

May we, by whatever power of these words to work in us (and that not of our own) seek to make our calling and election sure.

If there be allowance for place of salute, and therein be found a place where even such as I may make one, I find it here. In the flow of what I am allowed to receive, particularly in what is revealed as received by you, as (seemingly) _other_ members and shared freely, has often come that most necessary of questions..."Lovest thou me?"

It's completely beyond my ability to control His approach. And how wonderful that is!


----------



## gemcgrew (Jan 15, 2019)

"Bees gather honey from bitter flowers, as well as sweet; so should we from bitter conditions. Crosses are Christ’s servants, as they come and go at his command. They are sent to do us good; all is sent in love, and best for me; for God will supply all our wants with his all-sufficiency. We should not look so much at freedom from trouble, as to profit by it, to enjoy God by it, and strength to bear it, looking upon all that befalls us as appointed and ordered by God in his wisdom and love for our good." (Samuel Richardson)  

I came across this today. I thought it fitting in the flow of our conversation.


----------

