# Another question for all the smart people



## lapalm (Jul 12, 2010)

I read that the angels who left their first estate, I guess the fallen angels, are bound in darkness or maybe it said in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----. 

What is Satan doing going about as a roaring lion on the earth in the book of JOB and I believe one talked and asked Jesus not to send him into the pit before his time. 

Why are they not where they are supposed to be?

I  eagerly wait for your words of wisdom


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## Ronnie T (Jul 12, 2010)

*Another question for all the smart people *


I'm not qualified to answer this.


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## Lowjack (Jul 12, 2010)

Me neither


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## ted_BSR (Jul 13, 2010)

Me threeither.


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## Diogenes (Jul 13, 2010)

My vote is that the answer is B-Meson subatomic particles colliding with Dolly Parton at just the right moment, defying all logical outcomes, and thus Nancy Pelosi arose, spontaneously . . .


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## Lowjack (Jul 13, 2010)

Have you taken your meds today ?


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## rjcruiser (Jul 13, 2010)

Read Jude.  He was much smarter than me.


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## Jeffriesw (Jul 13, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> *Another question for all the smart people *
> 
> 
> I'm not qualified to answer this.



Yeah, That lets out about 99% of us 



Lowjack said:


> Have you taken your meds today ?



Why yes I  did


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## fishbum2000 (Jul 13, 2010)

i don't think i am qualified to anwser this on.

but i hope to find all the anwsers that truly matter when i meet GOD.


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## vanguard1 (Jul 13, 2010)

ok some fallen angles are bound up now, but most are stil out there. and so is satan the prince of the power of the air. watch out


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## farmasis (Jul 13, 2010)

Interesting question. I am not qualified, but did look into what some have said.

Some fallen angels where bound. Some were not bound.

In Luke 8, the demons that entered the man that Jesus commanded out begged him to not send them to the abyss.

Some scholars feel that the angels spoken to being bound in Jude where the ones that mated with women in Genesis 6.


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## SneekEE (Jul 13, 2010)

THE NEPHILIM, OR "GIANTS"
Of GEN. 6, &c. 

http://www.levendwater.org/companion/index_companion.html

The progeny of the fallen angels with the daughters of Adam (see notes on Gen. 6, and Ap. 23) are called in Gen. 6, Ne-phil-im, which means fallen ones (from naphal, to fall).  What these beings were can be gathered only from Scripture.  They were evidently great in size, as well as great in wickedness.  They were superhuman, abnormal beings; and their destruction was necessary for the preservation of the human race, and for the faithfulness of Jehovah's Word (Gen. 3:15). 
This was why the Flood was brought "upon the world of the ungodly" (2Pet. 2:5) as prophesied by Enoch (Jude 14). 

But we read of the Nephilim again in Num. 13:33 :  "there we saw the Nephilim, the sons of Anak, which come of the Nephilim".  How, it may be asked, could this be, if they were all destroyed in the Flood?  The answer is contained in Gen. 6:4, where we read :  "There were Nephilim in the earth in those days (i.e. in the days of Noah); and also AFTER THAT, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became [the] mighty men (Heb. gibbor, the heroes) which were of old, men of renown" (lit. men of the name, i.e. who got a name and were renowned for their ungodliness). 

So that "after that", i.e. after the Flood, there was a second irruption of these fallen angels, evidently smaller in number and more limited in area, for they were for the most part confined to Canaan, and were in fact known as "the nations of Canaan".  It was for the destruction of these, that the sword of Israel was necessary, as the Flood had been before. 

As to the date of this second irruption, it was evidently soon after it became known that the seed was to come through Abraham; for, when he came out from Haran (Gen. 12:6) and entered Canaan, the significant fact is stated :  "The Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land."  And in Gen. 14:5 they were already known as "Raphain" and Emim", and had established themselves at Asteroth Karnaim and Shaven Kiriathaim. 

In ch. 15:18-21 they are enumerated and named among Canaanite Peoples :  "Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims, and the Amorites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites" (Gen. 15:19-21; cp. Ex. 3:8, 17; 23:23.  Deut. 7; 20:17.  Josh. 12:8). 

These were to be cut off, and driven out, and utterly destroyed (Deut. 20:17.  Josh. 3:10).  But Israel failed in this (Josh. 13:13; 15:63; 16:10; 17:18.  Judg. 1:19, 20, 28, 29, 30-36; 2:1-5; 3:1-7); and we known not how many got away to other countries to escape the general destruction.  If this were recognized it would go far to solve many problems connected with Anthropology. 

As to their other names, they were called Anakim, from on Anak which came of the Nephilim (Num. 13:23), and Rephaim, from Rapha, another notable one among them. From Deut. 2:10, they were known by some as Emim, and Horim, and Zamzummim (v. 20, 21) and Avim, &c. 

As Rephaim they were well known, and are often mentioned :  but, unfortunately, instead of this, their proper name, being preserved, it is variously translated as "dead", "deceased", or "giants".  These Rephaim are to have no resurrection.  This fact is stated in Isa. 26:14 (where the proper name is rendered "deceased," and v. 19, where it is rendered "the dead").  It is rendered "dead" seven times (Job 26:5.  Ps. 88:10.  Prov. 2:18; 9:18; 21:16.  Isa. 14:8; 26:19). It is rendered "deceased" in Isa. 26:14. 

It is retained as a proper name "Rephaim" ten times (two being in the margin).  Gen. 14:5; 15:20.  Josh. 12:15 (marg.).  2Sam. 5:18, 22; 23:13.& b31 nbsp; 1Chron. 11:15; 14:9; 20:4 (marg.).  Isa. 17:5. In all other places it is rendered "giants", Gen. 6:4; Num. 23:33, where it is Nephilim; and Job 16:14, where it is gibbor (Ap. 14. iv). By reading all these passages the Bible student may know all that can be known about these beings. 

It is certain that the second irruption took place before Gen. 14, for there the Rephaim were mixed up with the five nations or peoples, which included Sodom and Gomorrha, and were defeated by the four kings under Chedorlaomer.  Their principal locality was evidently "Ashtaroth Karnaim"; while the Emim were in the plain of Kiriathaim (Gen. 14:5). 

Anak was a noted descendant of the Nephilim; and Rapha was another, giving their names respectively to different clans.  Anak's father was Arba, the original builder of Hebron (Gen. 35:27.  Josh. 15:13; 21:11); and this Palestine branch of the Anakim was not called Arbahim after him, but Anakim after Anak.  They were great, mighty, and tall (Deut. 2:10, 11, 21, 22, 23; 9:2), evidently inspiring the ten spies with great fear (Num. 13:33).  Og king of Bashan is described in Deut. 3:11. 

Their strength is seen in "the giant cities of Bashan" to-day; and we know not how far they may have been utilized by Egypt in the construction of buildings, which is still an unsolved problem. Arba was rebuilt by the Khabiri or confederates seven years before Zoan was built by the Egyptian Pharoahs of the nineteenth dynasty.  See note on Num. 13:22. 

If these Nephilim, and their branch of Rephaim, were associated with Egypt, we have an explanation of the problem which has for ages perplexed all engineers, as to how those huge stones and monuments were brought together.  Why not in Egypt as well as in "the giant cities of Bashan" which exist, as such, to this day? 

Moreover, we have in these mighty men, the "men of renown," the explanation of the origin of the Greek mythology.  That mythology was no mere invention of the human brain, but it grew out of the traditions, and memories, and legends of the doings of that mighty race of beings; and was gradually evolved out of the "heroes" of Gen. 6:4.  The fact that they were supernatural in their origin formed an easy step to their being regarded as the demi-gods of the Greeks. 

Thus the Babylonian "Creation Tablets", the Egyptian "Book of the dead", the Greek mythology, and heathen Cosmogonies, which by some are set on an equality with Scripture, or by others adduced in support of it, are all the corruption and perversion of primitive truths, distorted in proportion as their origin was forgotten, and their memories faded away. 
"THE SONS OF GOD" IN GEN. 6:2, 4.



It is only by the Divine specific act of creation that any created being can be called "a son of God".  For that which is "born of the flesh is flesh".  God is spirit, and that which is "born of the Spirit is spirit" (John 3:6).  Hence Adam is called a "son of God" in Luke 3:38.  Those "in Christ" having "the new nature" which is by the direct creation of God (2Cor. 5:17.  Eph. 2:10) can be, and are called "sons of God" (John 1:13.  Rom. 8:14, 15.  1John 3:1). (*1) 

This is why angels are called "sons of God" in every other place where the expression is used in the Old Testament.  Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.  Ps. 29:1; 89:6.  Dan. 3:25 (no art.). (*2)  We have no authority or right to take the expression in Gen. 6:2, 4 in any other sense.  Moreover, in Gen. 6:2 the Sept. renders it "angels". Angels are called "spirits" (Ps. 104:4.  Heb. 1:7, 14), for spirits are created by God. 

That there was a fall of the angels is certain from Jude 6. 

The nature of their fall is clearly stated in the same verse.  They left their own oiketerion.  This word occurs only in 2Cor. 5:2 and Jude 6, where it is used of the spiritual (or resurrection) body. 


The nature of their sin is stated to be "in like manner" to that of the subsequent sins of Sodom and Gomorrha, Jude 7. 


The time of their fall is given as having taken place "in the days of Noah" (1Pet. 3:20.  2Pet. 2:7), though there may have been a prior fall which caused the end of "the world that then was" (Gen. 1:1, 2.  2Pet. 3:6). 


For this sin they are "reserved unto judgment", 2Pet. 2:4, and are "in prison", 1Pet. 3:19. 


Their progeny, called Nephilim (translated "giants"), were monsters of iniquity; and, being superhuman in size and character, had to be destroyed (see Ap. 25).  This was the one and only object of the Flood. 


Only Noah and his family had preserved their pedigree pure from Adam (Gen. 6:9, see note).  All the rest had become "corrupt" (shachath) destroyed [as Adamites].  the only remedy was to destroy it (de facto), as it had become destroyed (de jure).  (It is the same word in v. 17 as in vv. 11, 12.)  See further under Ap. 25 on the Nephilim. 
This irruption of fallen angels was Satan's first attempt to prevent the coming of the Seed of the woman foretold in gen. 3:15.  If this could be accomplished, God's Word would have failed, and his own doom would be averted. 

As soon as it was made known that the Seed of the woman was to come through ABRAHAM, there must have been another irruption, as recorded in Gen. 6:4, "and also after that" (i.e. after the days of Noah, more than 500 years after the first irruption).  The aim of the enemy was to occupy Canaan in advance of Abraham, and so to contest its occupation by his seed.  For, when Abraham entered Canaan, we read (Gen. 12:6) "the Canaanite was then (i.e. already) in the land." 

In the same chapter (Gen. 12:10-20) we see Satan's next attempt to interfere with Abraham's seed, and frustrate the purpose of God that it should be in "Isaac".  This attempt was repeated in 20:1-18. 

This great conflict may be seen throughout the Bible, and it forms a great and important subject of Biblical study.  In each case the human instrument had his own personal interest to serve, while Satan had his own great object in view.  Hence God had, in each case, to interfere and avert the evil and the danger, of which his servants and people were wholly ignorant.  The following assaults of the great Enemy stand out prominently :-- 

The destruction of the chosen family by famine, Gen. 50:20. 


The destruction of the male line in Israel, Ex. 1:10, 15, &c.  Cp. Ex. 2:5.  Heb. 11:23. 


The destruction of the whole nation in Pharaoh's pursuit, Ex. 14. 


After David's line was singled out (2Sam. 7), that was the next selected for assault.  Satan's first assault was in the union of Jehoram and Athaliah by Jehoshaphat, notwithstanding 2Chron. 17:1.  Jehoram killed off all his brothers (2Chron. 21:4). 


The Arabians slew all his children, except Ahaziah (2Chron. 21:17; 22:1). 


When Ahaziah died, Athaliah killed "all the seed royal" (2Chron. 22:10).  the babe Joash alone was rescued; and, for six years, the faithfulness of Jehovah's word was at stake (2Chron. 23:3). 


Hezekiah was childless, when a double assault was made by the King of Assyria and the King of Terrors (Isa. 36:1; 38:1).  God's faithfulness was appealed to and relied on (Ps. 136). 


In Captivity, Haman was used to attempt the destruction of the whole nation (Est. 3:6, 12, 13.  Cp. 6:1). 


Joseph's fear was worked on (Matt. 1:18-20).  Notwithstanding the fact that he was "a just man", and kept the Law, he did not wish to have Mary stoned to death (Deut. 24:1); hence Joseph determined to divorce her.  But God intervened :  "Fear not". 


Herod sought the young Child's life (Matt. 2). 


At the Temptation, "Cast Thyself down" was Satan's temptation. 


At Nazareth, again (Luke 4), there was another attempt to cast Him down and destroy Him. 


The two storms on the Lake were other attempts. 


At length the cross was reached, and the sepulcher closed; the watch set; and the stone sealed.  But "God raised Him from the dead."  And now, like another Joash, He is seated and expecting (Heb. 10:12, 13), hidden in the house of God on high; and the members of "the one body" are hidden there "in Him" (Col. 3:1-3), like another Jehoshaba; and going forth to witness of His coming, like another Jehoiada (2Chron. 23:3). 

The irruption of "the fallen angels" ("sons of God") was the first attempt; and was directed against the whole human race. 
When Abraham was called, then he and his seed were attacked. 


When David was enthroned, then the royal line were attacked. 


And when "the Seed of the woman" Himself came, then the storm burst upon Him. 




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


(*1)  The word "offspring" in Acts 17:28 is quite different.  It is genos, which means merely kin or kind, our genus as being originated by God. 
(*2)  In Hos. 1:10, it is not beni-ha-Elohim, as here, but beni-el-chai.


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## Inthegarge (Jul 13, 2010)

Let's see  scripture says "that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit it spirit". So Angels (spirits) could not mate with (flesh) women. Someone has been watching too much porn if you ask me. RW


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## lapalm (Jul 13, 2010)

giants is a mistransliteration from the greek old testament. the word was giagantes ? which means earth bound, this agrees with fallen ones, maybe the ones fallen to the earth

If some are in and some are not ,doesn't sound fair

Somewhere doesn't it say they are held for judgment in darkness

Held in he-ll waiting for judgment ?  I thought it was judgment then condemnation to  he-ll?

Any ideas?


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## Lowjack (Jul 13, 2010)

Gigantes is Giants , Nephillins are Giants as well as Goliat in Arameic.
Angels are not call sons of God , they are called messengers of God "Malack Ha Elohim."
Sons of God( Bar Elohim) seems to be a title for a special breed of beings who at one time had a direct relationship with God, Job 1.
Year after Year they must come before God and render account of what they have done, among them is Azazel AKA Ha Satan.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 14, 2010)

Inthegarge said:


> Let's see  scripture says "that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit it spirit". So Angels (spirits) could not mate with (flesh) women. Someone has been watching too much porn if you ask me. RW



If Angels could not mate with humans, why did Lot offer his own daughters to the crazed men outside his door so that these men would not violate his heavenly visitors?


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## farmasis (Jul 14, 2010)

The phrase “sons of ‘elohim” is used in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7, as well as in Genesis 6:2,4. In each of the former cases, the reference is to angels. Psalms 29:1 and 89:7 use the phrase “sons of ‘elim,” which may refer to heavenly objects. “Sons of ‘elyon” (Psalm 82:6) may refer to the elders of Israel.13 Daniel (3:25) uses the phrase “like a son of ‘elohin,” which has reference to spiritual beings of some description. In addition, God’s chosen nation Israel often is portrayed as the spiritual son or child of God (cf. Deuteronomy 32:5; Isaiah 45:11; 43:6; Jeremiah 3:4; Hosea 1:10; 11:1). Apart from the latter usage, Hendel sees parallels in terminology with Ugaritic and other Semitic mythology in which, for instance, “the chief god of the pantheon, El, is called ‘ab bn il, ‘father of the sons of El,’ which indicates that the term bn il originally included the notion of the patrimony of El.”14  In a similar vain, Kline would interpret the “sons of God” as a parallel to the “pagan ideology of divine kingship,” which was borrowed as a designation for antediluvian kings.15

http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Sons-of-God-in-Genesis-6.pdf


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## farmasis (Jul 14, 2010)

lapalm said:


> giants is a mistransliteration from the greek old testament. the word was giagantes ? which means earth bound, this agrees with fallen ones, maybe the ones fallen to the earth
> 
> If some are in and some are not ,doesn't sound fair
> 
> ...


 
I think what I read was that because of their transgression with flesh they were bound and held until judgement. That sin seperated them from the rest of the fallen.
I think this might have been an attempt of Satan to contaminate the bloodline that would lead to Christ. Makes sense to me. Then, God destroyed the world to rid this contamination.


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## Lowjack (Jul 14, 2010)

farmasis said:


> The phrase “sons of ‘elohim” is used in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7, as well as in Genesis 6:2,4. In each of the former cases, the reference is to angels. Psalms 29:1 and 89:7 use the phrase “sons of ‘elim,” which may refer to heavenly objects. “Sons of ‘elyon” (Psalm 82:6) may refer to the elders of Israel.13 Daniel (3:25) uses the phrase “like a son of ‘elohin,” which has reference to spiritual beings of some description. In addition, God’s chosen nation Israel often is portrayed as the spiritual son or child of God (cf. Deuteronomy 32:5; Isaiah 45:11; 43:6; Jeremiah 3:4; Hosea 1:10; 11:1). Apart from the latter usage, Hendel sees parallels in terminology with Ugaritic and other Semitic mythology in which, for instance, “the chief god of the pantheon, El, is called ‘ab bn il, ‘father of the sons of El,’ which indicates that the term bn il originally included the notion of the patrimony of El.”14  In a similar vain, Kline would interpret the “sons of God” as a parallel to the “pagan ideology of divine kingship,” which was borrowed as a designation for antediluvian kings.15
> 
> http://www.apologeticspress.org/rr/reprints/Sons-of-God-in-Genesis-6.pdf



Elyon Is God In singular Elohim Is in the plural, Bar Elohim is not referring to Angels, The New Testament asks ;
Hbr 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?  And The Answer is NONE.
Angels are not the Bar Elohim.


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## farmasis (Jul 14, 2010)

*6:2 sons of God. *The identity of these “sons of God” has been a matter of much discussion, but the obvious meaning is that they were angelic beings. This was the uniform interpretation of the ancient Jews, who translated the phrase as “angels of God” in their Septuagint translation of the Old Testament. The apocryphal books of Enoch elaborate this interpretation, which is also strongly implied by the New Testament passages (Jude 6, II Peter 2:4-6; I Peter 3:19,20). The Hebrew phrase is _bene elohim_, which occurs elsewhere only in Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7. In these three explicitly parallel usages, the contextual meaning can be nothing except that of angels. A similar phrase _bar elohim_, occurs in Daniel 3:25, and another, _bar elim_, occurs in Psalm 29:1 and Psalm 89:6. All of these also refer explicitly to angels. The intent of the writer of Genesis 6 (probably Noah) was clearly that of introducing a monstrous irruption of demonic forces on the earth, leading to universal corruption and eventual judgment.


http://www.icr.org/books/defenders/163/


<ARTICLEMAJORSECTION></ARTICLEMAJORSECTION>
<ARTICLEMINORSECTION>

Term applied to an angel or demigod, one of the mythological beings whose exploits are described in Gen. vi. 2-4, and whose ill conduct was among the causes of the <CROSSREFERENCE GoTo="A050870"><SC>Flood</SC></CROSSREFERENCE>; to a judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations; comp. Ex. xxi. 6 [R. V., margin] and xxii. 8, 9); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28). "Sons of God" and "children of God" are applied also to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1) and to all members of the human race.</PARATEXT> 

Yet the term by no means carries the idea of physical descent from, and essential unity with, God the Father. The Hebrew idiom conveys nothing further than a simple expression of godlikeness (<CROSSREFERENCE GoTo="A060008">see <SC>Godliness</SC></CROSSREFERENCE>). In fact, the term "son of God" is rarely used in Jewish literature in the sense of
"Messiah." Though in Sukkah 52a the words of Ps. ii. 7, 8 are put into the mouth of Messiah, son of David, he himself is not called "son of God." The more familiar epithet is "King Messiah," based partly on this psalm (Gen. R. xliv.). In the Targum the 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 of Ps. lxxx. 16 is rendered 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 (= "King Messiah"), while Ps. ii. 7 is paraphrased in a manner that removes the anthropomorphism of the Hebrew: "Thou art beloved unto me, like a son unto a father, pure as on the day when I created thee."</P>

Read more: http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=964&letter=S#ixzz0th1tX3xA
​


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## lapalm (Jul 14, 2010)

Heb 1:5  confirms Jesus was not an angel. He was GOD As a man  GOD's mind and spirit in a Human Body.  He shared blood with the whole world.  He was lower than the angels. The non fallen ones anyway.

The questions is who are we That GOD himself came to us to redeem.  and why not redeem the  fallen angels who dwelt in heaven at one time.


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## Lowjack (Jul 14, 2010)

farmasis said:


> *6:2 sons of God. *The identity of these “sons of God” has been a matter of much discussion, but the obvious meaning is that they were angelic beings. This was the uniform interpretation of the ancient Jews, who translated the phrase as “angels of God” in their Septuagint translation of the Old Testament.
> 
> Quote
> 
> This is not Correct the Ancient Jews recognized there is a meaningfull distinction between the bar Elohim and the Ha Malak Elohim.


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## lapalm (Jul 14, 2010)

The phrase Bar Elohim and bene elohim not being apropiate for Jesus
brings up this question?

Do any of you believe that Jesus was GOD's son in heaven before he came here as a human?


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## farmasis (Jul 14, 2010)

lapalm said:


> The phrase Bar Elohim and bene elohim not being apropiate for Jesus
> brings up this question?
> 
> Do any of you believe that Jesus was GOD's son in heaven before he came here as a human?


 
most definately.

God does not change. If he is God the son, he was God the son.


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## Lowjack (Jul 14, 2010)

lapalm said:


> The phrase Bar Elohim and bene elohim not being apropiate for Jesus
> brings up this question?
> 
> Do any of you believe that Jesus was God's son in heaven before he came here as a human?


No, because the son is the man, who was born on earth, He was God The Only Father in heaven.
The oneness of God is unquestionable.
Some people can't grasp the concept of only one God.


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## ronpasley (Jul 14, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> No, because the son is the man, who was born on earth, He was God The Only Father in heaven.
> The oneness of God is unquestionable.
> Some people can't grasp the concept of only one God.



Amen Brother


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## Ronnie T (Jul 15, 2010)

While upon the cross, Jesus made a profound comment:

"My God My God, why have you forsaken Me!"

Please, someone explain the statement and who it was addressed to?


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## farmasis (Jul 15, 2010)

Some folks can't understand three in one.

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-30628 class=versenum>*7*</SUP> For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (1 John 5)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men........14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1)

Jesus was always there.


Good point Ronnie, or this one....

*<SUP>36</SUP>*"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,<SUP> </SUP>but only the Father. (Matt 24)

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-27168 class=versenum>*55*</SUP> But he, being full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God (Acts 5)


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## Israel (Jul 15, 2010)

We are a people stuck in time. For now. Someday the illusion of it will disappear like a mist, and we will see what always is, never "was", never will be.
God always...is.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Some people can't grasp the concept of only one God.



And most Jews can't grasp the concept of the Trinity. 

They get stuck on the Shema


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## Lowjack (Jul 15, 2010)

farmasis said:


> Some folks can't understand three in one.
> 
> <SUP id=en-NKJV-30628 class=versenum>*7*</SUP> For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. (1 John 5)
> 
> ...



Why would you use 1 John 5 which doesn't exist in the textus ?
You should know that, about the "Erasmus controversy" adding those verses to defend a doctrine made up by pagans in the Church.

John is very Clear THE CHRIST existed as the Word of God , when He said let their be light, he gave birth from Himself to Life to The Christ and all of us.
 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men........The Yeshua Man Was Not Yet Born.
It is very important you all know who is your savior and stop following the Roman Cultist doctrines of which the NT Call you to come out of it.


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## rjcruiser (Jul 15, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> It is very important you all know who is your savior and stop following the Roman Cultist doctrines of which the NT Call you to come out of it.






So...do you not believe in the Trinity?


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## farmasis (Jul 15, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Why would you use 1 John 5 which doesn't exist in the textus ?
> You should know that, about the "Erasmus controversy" adding those verses to defend a doctrine made up by pagans in the Church.
> 
> John is very Clear THE CHRIST existed as the Word of God , when He said let their be light, he gave birth from Himself to Life to The Christ and all of us.
> ...


 
Jesus is the Word of God.
*<SUP>13</SUP>* He _was_ clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. (Rev. 19)

Jesus has always been with God and Jesus is God.
 <SUP id=en-NKJV-26042 class=versenum>*1*</SUP> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. <SUP id=en-NKJV-26043 class=versenum>*2*</SUP> He was in the beginning with God. (John 1)

Regarding 1 John 5:7

http://www.1john57.com/1john57.htm


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## lapalm (Jul 15, 2010)

We often call him the son of God because of John 3:16. He called Himself most often  the Son of Man. The point I was getting to was He was not a son or in a lower position in Heaven as a created being. The Mormans and Jehovah witness and others consider Him to be a created being. He didn't become the son of God until he became the son of man.

I can prove that Jesus was GOD and never use scripture, any translation.

God's love can never be equaled by a humans' love right. God's love will always be superior.
 If my wife was kidnapped and either myself or my son could go and die in her place. I wouldn't send my son, I would go myself. As would many of you.
So I know He can himself.

He didn't send one created being to die for another created being, He  loves us and came himself.


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## Lowjack (Jul 15, 2010)

rjcruiser said:


> And most Jews can't grasp the concept of the Trinity.
> 
> They get stuck on the Shema



Of Course the Shema was given to Moses by God and He said God is Aleph (1) in Number, would you want then Jews to Believe God lied and he is really 3 , because someone twisted the Word and the Understanding of believers to fit all the pagan religions who believe in Multiple gods ?
God Said He was the only one God and no other god existed before him nor any god will exist after him"So if Jesus is a second god, Then God Lied to Isaiah.

God also said he is the only Savior" Isaiah Chpt 43.
So if Jesus is a second god who is the savior, Then The God OF Israel Lied to Isaiah.????????

THe Holy Spirit Created Everything and is The One Who comes over Mariahme and Conceives Jesus, So If The Holy Spirit is the Father, then why have 2 Other Gods, God the Father God the Holy Spirit, The Bible says God is A Spirit, so you all believe that a Spirit has a Spirit ?
I rather Believe God is a Spirit and he is Holy therefore He is the Holy Spirit and he is the Father of us all, The creator of all things, who dwell in the body Of Yeshua, noy 3 but One.


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## farmasis (Jul 17, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Of Course the Shema was given to Moses by God and He said God is Aleph (1) in Number, would you want then Jews to Believe God lied and he is really 3 , because someone twisted the Word and the Understanding of believers to fit all the pagan religions who believe in Multiple gods ?
> God Said He was the only one God and no other god existed before him nor any god will exist after him"So if Jesus is a second god, Then God Lied to Isaiah.
> 
> God also said he is the only Savior" Isaiah Chpt 43.
> ...


 
Trinity is not made up of seperate Gods!! There is only 1 God and he exists as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

Dictionary: trin·i·ty
*Trinity* _Theology_. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called _Trine_.

Here is more scriptural proof, not that scripture will do any good.

*<SUP>2</SUP>* that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and _attaining_ to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery of God, both of the Father and<SUP> </SUP>of Christ, (Col 2:2)

 <SUP id=en-NKJV-28634 class=versenum>*3*</SUP> Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.<SUP id=en-NKJV-28635 class=versenum>*4*</SUP> There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28636 class=versenum>*5*</SUP> There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. <SUP id=en-NKJV-28637 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. (1 Cor. 12)

*<SUP>5</SUP>* For this you know,<SUP> </SUP>that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. (Eph. 5)

*<SUP>5</SUP>* Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29394 class=versenum>*6*</SUP> who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, <SUP id=en-NKJV-29395 class=versenum>*7*</SUP> but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, _and_ coming in the likeness of men. (Phil. 2)

*<SUP>5</SUP>* And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was. (John 17)

*<SUP>39</SUP>* He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, “O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as You _will._” (Matt 26)


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## Lowjack (Jul 17, 2010)

farmasis said:


> Trinity is not made up of seperate Gods!! There is only 1 God and he exists as the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
> 
> Dictionary: trin·i·ty
> *Trinity* _Theology_. In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called _Trine_.
> ...



Why Limit God to  3 ?
He is 1000 Things more , hence the plurality of God.


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## farmasis (Jul 17, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Why Limit God to 3 ?
> He is 1000 Things more , hence the plurality of God.


 
If God wanted to be more than 3 he would have.

You said that Christ was made from God, and conceived in his mind...then became part of God on earth in flesh right? What about now? When he assended did he morph back into God, or is he still seperate now?


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## Big7 (Jul 18, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> It is very important you all know who is your savior and stop following the Roman Cultist doctrines of which the NT Call you to come out of it.




"Roman Cultist doctrines"
Care to splain that one..


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## Big7 (Jul 20, 2010)

Need to call you "hit and run" instead of lowjack...
That's what I thought.


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## lapalm (Jul 24, 2010)

farmasis said:


> If God wanted to be more than 3 he would have.
> 
> You said that Christ was made from God, and conceived in his mind...then became part of God on earth in flesh right? What about now? When he assended did he morph back into God, or is he still seperate now?



Has anyone considered GOD might be more than three in one and only choose to deal with us as a trinity? I mean if we cant understand 3 in one, how are going to accept a multifaceted deity.


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## Lowjack (Jul 24, 2010)

farmasis said:


> If God wanted to be more than 3 he would have.
> 
> You said that Christ was made from God, and conceived in his mind...then became part of God on earth in flesh right? What about now? When he assended did he morph back into God, or is he still seperate now?



Seems Colossians  Says it all, "For in Him Dwelleth all the powers of the Godhead Bodily" (Hebrew New Testament)


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## Lowjack (Jul 24, 2010)

Big7 said:


> Need to call you "hit and run" instead of lowjack...
> That's what I thought.



No I simmply refuse to turn this into a catholic discussion.
A Cult is any Church who uses the Bible but yet has a separate book which rules above the Bible, Hence Catholics , SDA,JW,Mormmons all are cults.


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## Lowjack (Jul 24, 2010)

Perhaps a Discussion of the "ELOHIM"would help understand better.
Like who Is Eloy ?Who Is Yaheveh Hashem, The 7 Spirits of God, The 24 Ancients, the 12 Elders , The Malaks Elohu, Etc etc.
Then a better picture of the Elohim will come through.


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## Diogenes (Jul 24, 2010)

Last I checked, 'Elohim' was the Hebrew plural, both literally meaning and also implying 'Gods,' in the plural.

How many of these guys did it take?  Sounds a bit  . . . well . . . pluralistic and pagan, akin to the ancient Greco-Roman pantheon, where another God could always be pulled out of the hat if stuff got inconvenient . . .


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## farmasis (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Seems Colossians Says it all, "For in Him Dwelleth all the powers of the Godhead Bodily" (Hebrew New Testament)


 

That does not answer my question.

Is Jesus a seperate entity, despite still being God, now like he was on earth.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> A Cult is any Church who uses the Bible but yet has a separate book which rules above the Bible...



Talmud?


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## Lowjack (Jul 25, 2010)

farmasis said:


> That does not answer my question.
> 
> Is Jesus a seperate entity, despite still being God, now like he was on earth.



No he cannot be a separate entity, according to Yaheveh's own words, there was never another god before him , nor will there be another god after him , Isaiah 43.'If Jesus is a separate entity, you and I are still lost, only Yaheveh can save. Isaiah 43.
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/81408...stian_sermon_video_by_bro_steve_winter_04072/


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## Lowjack (Jul 25, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> Talmud?



Talmud is not a book of rules like catechism, it is a commentary on many subjects, including history.
Judaism is ruled by the Torah.


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## WTM45 (Jul 25, 2010)

Oh, the Talmud consists of much more than that.
Most of us know its true place in Hebrew teachings.


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## Lowjack (Jul 25, 2010)

Isaiah Chapter 43

10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.

13 Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it?
Isaiah Chapter 44
6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last ( Alfa and The Omega); and beside me there is no God.
Revelation 1 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."

So If You Believe Jesus is not the God of The Old Testament , you have believed a heresy, Repent Today and believe in the one true God.
Exodus 3
14 God said to Moses, "I am who I am . * This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.' "

"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
John 8;24
Very Simple, if you don't believe Jesus is The I Am you are not saved.*


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## farmasis (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> No he cannot be a separate entity, according to Yaheveh's own words, there was never another god before him , nor will there be another god after him , Isaiah 43.'If Jesus is a separate entity, you and I are still lost, only Yaheveh can save. Isaiah 43.
> http://www.metacafe.com/watch/81408...stian_sermon_video_by_bro_steve_winter_04072/


 

So who was Jesus?
Who is sitting on the right hand of the Father?
If Jesus is not seperate and also God, then we are lost.

Jesus is seperate, yet is one with God. He came to earth fully man and fully God. He was God when he died and it was God (the Father) that raised him. Then, he sent God(the Holy Spirit) to dwell in us as He (God the son) said he would.

Not 3 Gods--3 make up God.


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## Lowjack (Jul 25, 2010)

Your belief is somewhere in here;
Monarchianism
The denial of three seperate beings in the Trinity. A famous Monarchianist, Sabellian, claimed the three persons of God are three facets of one personality, in the way that the sun is simultaneously hot, round, and bright. He became so associated with Monarchianism, that in the early church, heresy of any kind was called Sabellianism. 
Modalist Monarchianism
Held that God was a single being, and that Father / Son / Spirit were simply three modes of the same being, only one being possible at a time. Taken to its logical extreme, it would have been impossible for the Spirit to descend as a dove and God’s voice to be heard during Christ’s baptism.


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## farmasis (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Isaiah Chapter 43
> 
> 10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
> 11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.12 I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God.
> ...


*

Further proof they are not the same entity....

<SUP>22</SUP> For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, (John 5)

The Father will let the Son judge.

<SUP>27</SUP>"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him. (Matt. 11)

The Son has been granted all things by the Father and he is the only one who knows him and can reveal him.

<SUP>35</SUP>"The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. (John 3)

The Father loves the Son and has given him authority over all.

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26634 class=versenum>3</SUP>Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God, (John 13)

Jesus was sent by God, given a duty to then return to Him.

 <SUP id=en-NASB-26785 class=versenum>25</SUP>"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;(John 17)

God sent Jesus, who obviously was in heaven with him.

<SUP>15</SUP>even as the Father knows Me and I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. (John 10)

Jesus knows God and He knows Jesus...not the same entity.

 <SUP id=en-NASB-23738 class=versenum>10</SUP>"See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven continually see the face of My Father who is in heaven. (Matt 18)

God is in heaven...seperate from Jesus.

 <SUP id=en-NASB-23928 class=versenum>9</SUP>"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. (Matt 23)

Jesus claims God is the Father and He is in heaven.

 <SUP id=en-NASB-23994 class=versenum>36</SUP>"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. (Matt 24)

Jesus says he doesn't know when he will come again..only God the Father.

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. (John 6)

No body can come to God the Father unless they come to God the son, and God the son wil raise them up.

" If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. (John 15)

They hated both.

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

The antichrist knows they are seperate.

Yet, Jesus is part of God, not a seperate God.

" I and the Father are one." (John 10)

 " If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him." (John 14)

that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. (John 17)

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him. (1 Cor. 8)

Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2)*


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## farmasis (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> Your belief is somewhere in here;
> Monarchianism
> The denial of three seperate beings in the Trinity. A famous Monarchianist, Sabellian, claimed the three persons of God are three facets of one personality, in the way that the sun is simultaneously hot, round, and bright. He became so associated with Monarchianism, that in the early church, heresy of any kind was called Sabellianism.
> Modalist Monarchianism
> Held that God was a single being, and that Father / Son / Spirit were simply three modes of the same being, only one being possible at a time. Taken to its logical extreme, it would have been impossible for the Spirit to descend as a dove and God’s voice to be heard during Christ’s baptism.


 
Sounds nothing like mine..but does sound like yours.

You said 1 God with 3 jobs.


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## Lowjack (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm sorry you have being duped.
God is one there is no other God, The fact that he will assign Certain things to Yeshua doesn't mean he is different, Yeshua is the part of God we can see.


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## farmasis (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> I'm sorry you have being duped.
> God is one there is no other God, The fact that he will assign Certain things to Yeshua doesn't mean he is different, Yeshua is the part of God we can see.


 
I am quoting scripture. If duped, it was by God.
I agree Jesus is the part of God we can see. The Holy Spirit is the part of God living inside of us. 3 in 1.
I am sorry that you can't see through the religion of your forefathers. Jesus had a hard time with that too, don't think I am any match.

Done with this thread.


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## Ronnie T (Jul 25, 2010)

Lowjack,

In your understanding, would you explain the prayers of Jesus to His Father?  
Specifically, "Allow this cup to pass from me"  and "My God my God why have You forsaken Me."

How and why was it possible for the Living God to prayer to the heavenly God?

Thanks.


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## Lowjack (Jul 26, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Lowjack,
> 
> In your understanding, would you explain the prayers of Jesus to His Father?
> Specifically, "Allow this cup to pass from me"  and "My God my God why have You forsaken Me."
> ...



You answered it, Jesus is the man .( The Instrument God used to Communicate with man and offered as Sacrifice)
The Holy Spirit is God the father who dwelled in that man, who had all feelings of a man.


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## farmasis (Jul 26, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> You answered it, Jesus is the man .( The Instrument God used to Communicate with man and offered as Sacrifice)
> The Holy Spirit is God the father who dwelled in that man, who had all feelings of a man.


 
I am trying to stay away....I really am, but floored by what a man of God would say and I need clarification.....

Are you saying that the blood of a mere man covered your sins? That a mere man could be the propitiation for the sins of the world and satisfy the wrath of God?


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## lapalm (Jul 26, 2010)

? The talmud? the talmud? talking about the talmud? written  about 200 AD and 500 AD a commentary on the LAW and the scribes additions to the law. It has no connection to me . Remember The Age of Grace after the death of Jesus about 33 AD? talking about the talmud is like talking abou Hammurabi? code or The Magna charta  It might be a good read but it has no bearing on current events


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## WTM45 (Jul 26, 2010)

lapalm said:


> ? The talmud? the talmud? talking about the talmud? written  about 200 AD and 500 AD a commentary on the LAW and the scribes additions to the law. It has no connection to me . Remember The Age of Grace after the death of Jesus about 33 AD? talking about the talmud is like talking abou Hammurabi? code or The Magna charta  It might be a good read but it has no bearing on current events



In the context of Lowjack's mention of other religious belief systems and what they use in conjunction with their chosen holy book, the Talmud (in its different versions) has to be mentioned.  It is one of the strongest influences in Judaic teachings even today.


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## earl (Jul 27, 2010)

WTM45 said:


> In the context of Lowjack's mention of other religious belief systems and what they use in conjunction with their chosen holy book, the Talmud (in its different versions) has to be mentioned.  It is one of the strongest influences in Judaic teachings even today.



Perhaps they strayed to far from the word of God ?


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## WTM45 (Jul 27, 2010)

earl said:


> Perhaps they strayed to far from the word of God ?



Like any other religious belief system, it is subject to interpretation and who will follow who.


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## lapalm (Jul 29, 2010)

I end this with a correction. Truth is truth . my interruption doesn't change it followers don't direct it.
 if i belief truth over error, i benefit.


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## emtguy (Aug 1, 2010)

farmasis said:


> I think what I read was that because of their transgression with flesh they were bound and held until judgement. That sin seperated them from the rest of the fallen.
> I think this might have been an attempt of Satan to contaminate the bloodline that would lead to Christ. Makes sense to me. Then, God destroyed the world to rid this contamination.



i agree


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## emtguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Lowjack,
> 
> In your understanding, would you explain the prayers of Jesus to His Father?
> Specifically, "Allow this cup to pass from me"  and "My God my God why have You forsaken Me."
> ...



if i remember right, jesus never refered to God as anything but "father" until our sins were upon him then it changed to " my God, my God"...anyone know if im correct on this?

Lowjack, does your faith teach that jesus was just a " regular joe" that God decided to use to change the world?

i dont know, im really asking. not being a smart pants


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## emtguy (Aug 1, 2010)

farmasis said:


> I am quoting scripture. If duped, it was by God.
> I agree Jesus is the part of God we can see. The Holy Spirit is the part of God living inside of us. 3 in 1.
> I am sorry that you can't see through the religion of your forefathers. Jesus had a hard time with that too, don't think I am any match.
> Done with this thread.





thats funny


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## Dominic (Aug 9, 2010)

Lowjack said:


> No I simmply refuse to turn this into a catholic discussion.
> A Cult is any Church who uses the Bible but yet has a separate book which rules above the Bible, Hence Catholics , SDA,JW,Mormmons all are cults.



The Catechism of the Catholic Church is no different then the Talmud. It is a commentary on Sacred Scripture not a book of Sacred Scripture. It adds nothing new to Sacred Scripture; it is a simple tool of explanation. Had you ever bothered picking one up you would see that, but I guess knowing the truth about something would make harder to spread lies.

Now if you want to talk cults I am pretty sure David Koresh was a Messianic Jew.


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## Israel (Aug 9, 2010)

God has done amazing things in order to reach us, a people divided, fractured, alienated even from our own being. 
And as much as we see through the disharmony of ourselves we ascribe to God those very attributes.
We cannot describe what we do not perceive.
We cannot comprehend what we have not seen.
We cannot imagine what we have not experienced.


But there is something we have all experienced.

Every single one of us knows what it is to believe one thing...say another thing...and do yet another.
When we see this in ourselves, we may say we are hypocrites, but still, we say, "I am one person".

God sees clearly that when we left the One who is, as the scripture and spirit testifies, one in heart and action, we are no more one than the most fractured schizophrenic. We left being in unity. God is One.

Jeremiah 32:39 (Young's Literal Translation)

 39and I have given to them one heart, and one way, to fear Me all the days, for good to them, and to their sons after them: 


One heart, one way. 

The new testament writers spoke of singleness of heart...

Act 2:46  And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, 

Eph 6:5  Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; 


Col 3:22  Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God: 

We all know Jesus prayed this:


Joh 17:23  I in them, and thou in me, _that they may be made perfect in one;_ and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me. 

Unity is the perfection of God. He does what he says and what he purposes. Jesus never left that perfection, and by that has brought us into it.
If we would know how Jesus and the Father are One, we must know how we are one in Jesus.
Likewise, to understand what it means to be a son we must know how Jesus is One with the Father.

There is nothing we can do about it. Unity is. We are either in it, or not.
Just as Jesus says...
Joh 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day"

Likewise: 
Luk 10:22  All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, _but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him. _

We cannot know Jesus apart from the Father. We cannot know the Father _apart_ from Jesus.

Jesus and the Father are not "apart".


Joh 16:12  I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.


While we still see reality as something that can be described "in parts", and who of us has not seen it...?
We talk about salvation as one thing, we speak of knowing God as though it is another, we speak of the things of God as though, sometimes, there is this and there is that in God.

That's fine, and needful for a time. Even needful for those who may still think carnally...


Rom 8:32  He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 

Are those "things"...or is it Christ himself?

What does "mere man" mean? If it means old man...no Jesus is not of the earth, earthy.

A man is either after the likeness of Adam or Christ.

By one man sin entered.
By one man mercy reigns.


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