# Street Legal Dune Buggy



## Jack1981

Been meaning to see if anyone can add some clarity to an ongoing research adventure of mine.  My registration was finally approved after 2 days. 

Ok here is the deal;  I am planning on purchasing a dune buggy as an alternative mode of transport.  I need something with great gas mileage, but still able to transport people/items better than a motorcycle.

This is the BMS Sand Sniper 1000cc buggy;  61MPG, 80MPH top speed, 5-speed manual, "50 state legal".







Head Lamps
Tail Lights
Brake Lights
E-Brake
Turn Signals
Mirrors
Shatter Proof Windshield
D.O.T. Street Tires will be Installed
Insurance Coverage

_MSO Paper Work says Type: ATV - *no where* on the MSO paper work is the phrase *"OFF ROAD" or "OFF ROAD USE ONLY"* used.
_

I am still investigating the requirement for a windshield wiper; I don't plan on driving this in bad weather

I will have the local police sign off on the T-22 form for inspection.  Now here is the part I am insure of as I get conflicting answers from all over the place;

1.) Hit-or-Miss  Title/Registration across GA when visiting the DMV. Some people have had a heck of a time getting into the system, while others have breezed through getting these pre-manufactured buggies in the system.  Have the T-22 form signed, the MSO, Bill of Sale, and go to the DMV.  As long as the MSO does not use the phrase "OFF ROAD" some people have been in and out of the DMV no problem, others not so much.

Another option is to ditch the idea of the MSO and fill out the forms for a "kit vehicle" - then have an appointment scheduled for a state inspection. Emissions are not done in my county so that part can be skipped.  This path could have a title created using some sort of alternative wording besides "ATV".  

Correct me if I am wrong but GA defined an "ATV" as a vehicle upon which straddles the seat, or a vehicle predominantly used in "off-road".  Well this buggy will never touch off road areas.

2.) Registration/ Title not required in GA for certain types of vehicles (like ATV).  Can drive on public roads, but not Interstate Highways.

What drivers do is carry their signed T-22, insurance, and print outs of some particular laws, a majority of the time this has been sufficient for a police officer to send them on their way.  Only on a few instances have I read of a police officer (the "I AM THE LAW!!!" kind) have given them trouble. So sort of a crap-shoot I suppose.

If pulled over;

A.  Cannot be ticketed for no insurance if you have insurance

B. Cannot be ticketed for equipment violations if all required DOT equipment is present

C. Cannot be ticketed for no registration if the vehicle cannot/will not be registered by the state

Good example are Mopeds or other 50cc or less vehicles.  

These are allowed on public roads and I see them all the time. These types of vehicles do not require registration, just the proper insurance coverage.

So what do you guys think?


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## lbzdually

In Georgia they used to give you a tag for ATV's, but it is near impossible now.  I don't think it's going to fly as a street legal buggy.  If I'm wrong, I might make our Arctic Cat Prowler street legal so I can drive my wife to work when it gets icy.


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## Jack1981

Technically there is no reason the buggy should not be street legal.

It will have all required D.O.T. equipment and tires and have insurance coverage. Not to mention more fuel efficient and safer than some currently approved methods of travel (mopeds, motorcycles)

Like I said - many people have had luck getting them on the road.  The Polaris RZR guys included.

By biggest beef is that sand rails built off VW frames are street legal.  But they are getting registered under a technicality of a VW VIN # and a state inspection.

So building around a 30 year old frame is OK - but a 2012 manufactured buggy - which is probably safer and more up to date, may not be? No way - won't stand for it. 

Even if I don't register/title the buggy; no one at the DMV (state or local) has been able to tell me what GA Law or Code would allow an officer to ticket me or otherwise take action against me if I have all the same equipment as an insured car.

As before;

If pulled over;

A. Cannot be ticketed for no insurance if you have insurance

B. Cannot be ticketed for equipment violations if all required DOT equipment is present

C. Cannot be ticketed for no registration if the vehicle cannot/will not be registered by the state

Yes I realize this is a risk involved, but that is what compact digital recorders are for as well as printed GA codes and laws.  If an officer is insistent, I may not beat the ride - but I sure as heck will beat the charge and open up the door for legal changes as case law.

I'd be happy to pose the following question; "Which is safer? And why?"

100% STREET LEGAL





VS.

NOT STREET LEGAL






The laws against ATV registrations were from my understanding caused by Quad-Bike riders abusing loop holes.  

It is not in any sense of the imagination logical dune buggies with proper DOT equipment not be classied as Alternative Transports of some category for legal road use.


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## lbzdually

Another option is getting a quad registered from the VIN of a motorcycle.  The T-rex is a trike like that, I don't see why a 4 wheel version wouldn't be.


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## lbzdually

What i would really like to do is get a VW rail frame and title, slap a front wheels drive GM LS3 in it and have all kinds of fun.  With the power to weight ratio, it would run with ZR1 Vettes and get at least 30 mpg.


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## Jack1981

Well - we shall see how it goes. 

I live in Grovetown and a co-worker of mine is the brother-in-law of the Police Chief here. Hoping to get him to sign off on my T-22 form.  Then just keep a copy on me at all times with insurance and a few print outs of important parts in the code.


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## rjcruiser

Interesting...saw a sand rail the other day riding through town.  No windshield...but had a license plate on the back of it.

I think at the end of the day, depends on your local tag office.  Kinda like those mini trucks.  Probably a good idea to stay of the interstate as well.


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## lbzdually

I saw you listed mileage as 61mpg, has anyone drove one of these on road much and got anywhere near that mileage?  I know it's only a 1000cc engine, but it's not very aerodynamic and I would assume it's geared fairly low for off-road use.   600cc crotch rockets with a lot less weight and aero drag would struggle to get 60 mpgs.  What I am saying here is don't spend all the time and money getting it street legal only to find out a Toyota pickup truck would have been more economical, do it because of the fun factor.


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## Gaducker

I dont     think        that          would    be safer           than  a bike.      if you                      get hit on a  bike  you are getting thrown         from the bike    and if you  get hit in that   thing its gona   fold up on your but like an aluminum can and you are gona be drt before the firemen can cut you out.


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## Jack1981

I think I would argue that getting hit up to a certain speed would end badly for both, however at lower speeds I think a buggy is much safer overall.

I'm not quite sure that getting crushed in a frame or getting thrown from a motorcycle would make one a better choice than the other.  You are nothing more than a ragdoll if hit on a motorcycle and sent flying - there is no controlling your limbs or direction, you literally fly through the air and hit the ground flopping wherever physics tell you to go.

20MPH low speed hit as an example - no way the buggy is going to be in the world of hurt the motorcyclist might be subjected to.


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## Gaducker

I dought you will get a tag for that machine but if you do let us know.
What you gona do about an emmisions test if you are in the metro?

Isint that one of those chinese atvs?  You better take tools with you everywhere you go.  And locktite.

Another think to think about,  Most rails are sch forty steel or chromolly
these chinese atvs are sixteen gauge tube at best.


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## Jack1981

If safety was a primary concern we would all drive jacked up GMC trucks and things like motorcycles would be non-existent.

As far as I can tell so far, registration, tag, and title may not even be required.  However the county and state DMV has been unable to cite or provide an answer to my inquiry.

I emailed the columbia county police department this evening, waiting on a reply over next couple of days; this is what I emailed them:



> Thank you in advance if any feedback can be provided for this inquiry as I have had little results on the county and state level when speaking with the DMV.
> 
> I would like an opinion on how the Columbia County SO would view the following subject;
> 
> The vehicle in question is categorized as a Dune Buggy (2012 manufactured street legal – this is not a rebuild or kit) – the buggy has all D.O.T. required equipment (same as automobile) and DOT rated street tires. If the driver also has the state required insurance is this vehicle legal to drive on non-highway public roads?
> 
> If not legal, can you please cite or provide the ordinance or code that explains in full clarity what would deem such action illegal?
> 
> The reason for this inquiry is the dune buggy MSO paperwork states it as an ATV category body type. The MSO would normally be used to create a title and thus allow for registration and thus produce a plate and tag. However GA code says that no ATV shall be titled or registered.  However the GA code for an ATV defines such a vehicle as a single seat for which the driver straddles and controls the direction by handle bars. The buggy clearly does not meet this requirement as it has two full seats and a steering wheel.  However due to some words on a piece of paper, thus is the problem.
> 
> So if one drives said buggy on a public non-highway road, has insurance, and meets all DOT equipment standards – but has no registration paper; if a patrol officer pulls over the dune buggy (for any reason) – can the driver be ticketed or have his vehicle impounded for any reason? If the answer is yes I once again request to know the county or state ordinance or code that would confirm this action. (As a side note I know mopeds are permitted on public roads and do not require registration)
> 
> I want to take another moment to reiterate this is not a buggy built off a VW frame and registered by way of a salvaged title, nor is it a kit assembled upon delivery.  This buggy is newly manufactured and is ready to drive upon delivery.  And for clarity on your end (or just being curious), the reason for said vehicle is it gets 60+ MPG as a daily commuter for work and I need more transport capability than a motor cycle.
> 
> Thank you once again for taking the time to read this; I am praying you are able to provide feedback the county AND state were unable to clarify.


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## merc123

I like these!


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## greg_n_clayton

Hmmm...don't know why you would have a problem. People build street legal machines all the time !!


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## Jack1981

But there are methods to register custom built vehicles.

The problem here is the MSO states the type as "ATV".

However the GA code defines ATV as something else.  The GA code defines the buggy as a motorzied vehicle which should be allowed to get a tag/title.

However the DMV says they will go based on what the MSO says.

Going to call the state DMV again today and talk to someone different. makes no sense.

How can you tell me its an ATV if your own state code says its not?

Citizens should not have to go through all this.


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## merc123

I agree...  The problem with places like the DMV and tag office is they don't know how to read the laws or understand them fully.


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## Jack1981

Oh you guys are going to love this; there is actually a new bill effective 5/1/2012 (this year!):

To think this was not easily found - I have located the revised codes regarding ATVs / Off-Road Vehicles.  The worst part? Why did the state DMV worker not bring this to my attention?



> 12 LC 35 2425/AP
> 
> House Bill 795 (AS PASSED HOUSE AND SENATE)
> 
> By: Representatives Powell of the 29th, Rice of the 51st, Battles of the 15th, and Johnson of the 37th
> 
> A BILL TO BE ENTITLED
> 
> AN ACT
> 
> To amend Title 40 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to motor vehicles and traffic, so as to modify definitions related to all-terrain vehicles, recreational off-highway vehicles, and off-road vehicles to make such definitions consistent with current industry standards and practices; to provide for related matters; to provide an effective date; *to repeal conflicting laws*; and for other purposes.
> 
> BE IT ENACTED BY THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY OF GEORGIA:
> 
> SECTION 1.
> Title 40 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to motor vehicles and traffic, is amended by revising paragraph (3) of Code Section 40-1-1, relating to definitions, as follows:
> 
> "(3) 'All-terrain vehicle' means any motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with three or more low pressure nonhighway tires and with a seat to be straddled by the operator and with handlebars for steering control which is 50 inches or less in width."
> 
> SECTION 2.
> Said title is further amending in said Code section by revising paragraphs (8.1) through (8.2) as follows:
> 
> "(8.1) (8.01) 'Class I all-terrain vehicle' means a motorized, off-highway recreational vehicle 50 inches or less in width with a dry weight of 1,000 1,200 pounds or less that travels on three or morelow pressure nonhighway tires, has a saddle or seat for the operator, and is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain.
> 
> (8.2) (8.1) 'Class II all-terrain vehicle' means a motorized, off-highway recreational vehicle which is not a class I all-terrain vehicle and which is 65 inches or less in width with a dry weight of 2,000 pounds or less that travels on four or more nonhighway tires and is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain.
> 
> (8.2) 'Class II III all-terrain vehicle' means any motor vehicle that:
> 
> (A) Weighs more than a class I II all-terrain vehicle and less than 8,000 pounds;
> (B) Is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain; and
> (C) Is actually being operated off a highway."
> 
> SECTION 3.
> Said title is further amended in said Code section by adding a new paragraph to read as follows:
> 
> "(50.01) 'Recreational off-highway vehicle' means a motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with four or more nonhighway tires and which is 65 inches or less in width."
> 
> SECTION 4.
> Said title is further amended by revising Code Section 40-7-3, relating to defining "off-road vehicle," as follows:
> "40-7-3.
> 
> As used in this chapter, the term 'off-road vehicle' means any motorized vehicle designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain and not intended for use predominantly on public roads. It The term includes, but is not limited to, four-wheel drive vehicles,or low-pressure tire vehicles, two-wheel vehicles, nonhighway tire vehicles, amphibious machines, ground effect or air cushion vehicles, and any other means of transportation deriving power from any source other than muscle or wind, except that such. The term shall exclude any motorboat; any military, fire, law enforcement, or other government vehicle being used for official purposes; any vehicles used exclusively on airports; all farm machinery, farm tractors, and other vehicles used exclusively for agricultural purposes; any self-propelled equipment for harvesting and transportation of forest products, for clearing land for planting, for utility services and maintenance, for earth moving, construction, or mining; and self-propelled lawnmowers, snowblowers, garden or lawn tractors, or golf carts, while such vehicles are being used exclusively for their designed purposes."
> 
> SECTION 5.
> Said title is further amended by revising subsection (a) of Code Section 40-8-91.1, relating to marking and equipment of all-terrain vehicles used as law enforcement vehicles, as follows:
> 
> "(a) As used in this Code section, the term 'all-terrain vehicle' means any motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with at least a 500 cubic centimeter engine, four or more low pressure nonhighway tires, a seat to be straddled by the operator, and handlebars for steering control and which is 50 inches or less in width."
> 
> SECTION 6.
> This Act shall become effective upon its approval by the Governor or upon its becoming law without such approval.
> 
> SECTION 7.
> All laws and parts of laws in conflict with this Act are repealed.



So now a new batch of questions crop up... let me formulate those... stand by...


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## Jack1981

In my opinion this bolsters my stance even more...

Lets start with the two obvious;



> SECTION 1.
> 
> Title 40 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to motor vehicles and traffic, is amended by revising paragraph (3) of Code Section 40-1-1, relating to definitions, as follows:
> 
> "(3) 'All-terrain vehicle' means any motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with three or more low pressure nonhighway tires and with a seat to be straddled by the operator and with handlebars for steering control which is 50 inches or less in width."



- 4 Highway Rated Tires

- My buggy model has a width of 77.2" (inches)

What does this mean?  Does this now disqualify the bugger as an ATV / Off Road vehicle?  Does this now require the state to treat it as a standard motor vehicle?

This covers the Class I definition.

Class II is basically the same, but with a width of 65" or less.  So that is covered.

Class III does not define a width - is this the catch all?



> (8.2) 'Class II III all-terrain vehicle' means any motor vehicle that:
> 
> (A) Weighs more than a class I II all-terrain vehicle and less than 8,000 pounds;
> 
> (B) Is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain; and
> 
> (C) Is actually being operated off a highway.



Well it won't be off -road operated - so I don't know how to regard (C) ?  (the important wording is highlighted in red and underlined!!!)



> SECTION 3.
> 
> Said title is further amended in said Code section by adding a new paragraph to read as follows:
> 
> "(50.01) 'Recreational off-highway vehicle' means a motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with four or more nonhighway tires and which is 65 inches or less in width."



Once again, 77.2" in width.  Disqualified from this definition?

Section 4 is just a mess of "opinion" based items from what I read.  WAY too many subjective items in there, I don't see how it was passed like that.

However some key wording again...



> ...and not intended for use predominantly on public roads.



Who determines what the vehicles intention is?  The manufacturer or the owner?  I never plan to off-road in it...


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## merc123

I saw on YouTube a guy said to make it street legal he had to swap the tires so he put on some cheap cooper tires.


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## greg_n_clayton

I like small towns !! The big towns I believe are more of a pain to deal with !!


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## Jack1981

Finally got someone at the state DMV to give me some answers.  I just have to send in all relative documents to the title examiner officer with a letter indicating the problem (basically photos + GA Code) and upon a scheduled inspection they will title it as something other than ATV regardless of what the MSO states.

So one step forward in a continuing process.  Sadly they said title processing is 4-8 weeks backlogged for the $18 title fee, but did not elude to the wait time if you pay the $28 "expedited" title fee.


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## merc123

Where can you test drive one?


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## merc123

http://buggynews.com/bms-1000cc-dune-buggy-t19102-10.html


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## lbzdually

merc is on top of things as usual.  I would not buy one of those things by the sound of how they treat customers/dealers.


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## Jack1981

I am simply going to go the non-registered route.  I have created this form to keep along with my insurance paper work in the event I am pulled over:

(any item you see underlined will also be highlighted in yellow for ease of reading by an officer...)



> BMS Sand Sniper 1000cc Specifications:
> 
> Length = 118.9”  |  *Width = 77.2” (THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT!!!!)*  |  Height = 65.0”  |  Dry Wight =  1,323lbs
> 
> -	Head Lamps (High & Low Beam)
> -	Rear Brake Lights
> -	Rear Reverse Lights
> -	Side Mirrors
> -	Horn
> -	Front & Rear Turn Signals
> -	Mechanical Emergency Brake
> -	Driver & Passenger Safety Belts
> -	Maximum Speed 80+ MPH
> 
> Georgia Code Effective May 6th, 2012 (HB 795):
> 
> To amend Title 40 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to motor vehicles and traffic, so as to modify definitions related to all-terrain vehicles, recreational off-highway vehicles, and off-road vehicles to make such definitions consistent with current industry standards and practices; to provide for related matters; to provide an effective date; to repeal conflicting laws; and for other purposes.
> 
> (3) 'All-terrain vehicle' means any motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with three or more non highway tires and which is 50 inches or less in width.
> 
> (8.01) 'Class I all-terrain vehicle' means a motorized, off-highway recreational vehicle 50 inches or less in width with a dry weight of 1,200 pounds or less that travels on three or more non highway tires, and is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over  land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain.
> 
> (8.1) 'Class II all-terrain vehicle' means a motorized, off-highway recreational vehicle which is not a class I all-terrain vehicle and which is 65 inches or less in width with a dry weight of 2,000 pounds or less that travels on four or more non highway tires and is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain.
> 
> (8.2) 'Class II III all-terrain vehicle' means any motor vehicle that:
> 
> (A)    Weighs more than a class I II all-terrain vehicle and less than 8,000 pounds;
> (B)    Is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over
> land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain; and
> (C)    Is actually being operated off a highway.
> 
> (50.01) 'Recreational off-highway vehicle' means a motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with four or more non highway tires and which is 65 inches or less in width.
> 
> Line 69, Section 7 of this Bill reads: All laws and parts of laws in conflict with this Act are repealed.
> 
> Georgia does not issue titles, registration, or tags for all terrain vehicles.  Georgia does not recognize this vehicle as either an all terrain vehicle (defined by the listed code), nor an automobile and currently does not list any codes or law that define this vehicle and/or its restrictions of use.
> 
> At this time neither the county DMV nor the state DMV (including the Department of Revenue) can provide applicable code or law that would restrict the use of this vehicle on public access roads. This vehicle does have all (see above list) D.O.T. required safety and operating equipment and is fully insured in the event of an accident.
> 
> This vehicle also has been inspected and verified by a local law enforcement official - please see the attached T-22B form.
> 
> This vehicle is operated in compliance with all applicable motor vehicles permitted to operate on public access roads.


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## Jack1981

Another tidbit I dug out of a PDF file, now maybe someone can explain the technicals of it...

This PDF was from 2005:



> Attorney General Thurbert Baker has issued a letter declaring that "the operation of ATVs on public roads does not violate Georgia law."



Now, what is a "letter?"  

Is it opinion? Is it guidelines for the law?

This AG served from 1997 to 2011 - is this relevant at all?

I can find nothing after this quote surfaced of another item repealing this "letter" or otherwise saying the opposite.


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## Jack1981

This gets even better...

I found this buried in a 144 page PDF file on the DOR website...



> NON-TITLED VEHICLES
> 
> In order to properly register a non-titled vehicle, the owner of the vehicle is required to
> provide proof of ownership. Proof of ownership is established with:
> 
> • The last certificate of registration*
> • Bill(s) of sale
> 
> *If the registration was not issued in your name and there are no spaces for transferring ownership, original, signed bill(s) of sale must be submitted establishing a complete and correct chain of ownership from the registered owner up through you, the current owner. You must also submit an original Certificate of Inspection, Form T-22B, completed and signed by a Georgia law enforcement officer, your Georgia County Tax Commissioner, or his/her designated employee, after he/she makes a visual inspection of your vehicle's identification number plate, a/k/a serial plate. Any officer completing the Certificate of Inspection, Form T-22B, must query the G.C.I.C., Georgia Crime Information Center, to determine if the vehicle is stolen and he/she shall indicate that the query was made on the face of the Form T-22B. This form will not be accepted if it is incomplete or contains alterations or erasures.



This is a stand alone section, and not a sub section to any other code or otherwise (so there is no exemption dialogue).

Am I missing something here, why are DMV workers under the thought that a title is required to register???


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## Backlasher82

Are you thinking that you can legally operate the vehicle on the road without a tag because the DMV refuses to issue a tag for it?


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## Jack1981

Yes. This is what some people have been doing for years.

Here is the simplest way to look at it;  ATVs are exempt from tag and title. However there is nothing in state law prohibiting their use on public streets, ultimately this is up to the county you live in to regulate street use.

In my county, they simply adhere to state guidelines.  Well, there is no state guidelines prohibiting the use of this vehicle on public roads - you could however be ticketed for no insurance and equipment violations if you don't have those bases covered.

However in my quest for further clarity, I received yet another response from my county's head of traffic;



> Mr Gibb, I am currently doing a little research to try and help you. Please provide me with the Make and model  of your dune buggy to include engine size cylinders etc.. Thanks, SGT A.J. XXXX
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From: dgibb@comcast.net [mailto:dgibb@comcast.net]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 21, 2012 3:11 PM
> To: XXX, Andrew J.
> Subject: RE: FW: Dune Buggy Legality
> 
> 
> 
> I have a follow up question after doing some more research  (the state DMV was not very helpful, they basically have no idea how to handle the situation).
> 
> I'm wondering if I even need to be registered and tagged to be legal, as long as I have all DOT required items and have insurance. I would like to quote you the most recent GA Law/Codes that went into effect May 1st of 2012 (I believe):
> 
> SECTION 1.
> Title 40 of the Official Code of Georgia Annotated, relating to motor vehicles and traffic, is amended by revising paragraph (3) of Code Section 40-1-1, relating to definitions, as follows:
> 
> "(3) 'All-terrain vehicle' means any motorized vehicle designed for off-road use which is equipped with three or more nonhighway tires and with which is 50 inches or less in width."
> 
> SECTION 2.
> Said title is further amending in said Code section by revising paragraphs (8.1) through (8.2) as follows:
> 
> "(8.1) (8.01) 'Class I all-terrain vehicle' means a motorized, off-highway recreational vehicle 50 inches or less in width with a dry weight of 1,000 1,200 pounds or less that travels on three or more nonhighway tires, and is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain.
> 
> (8.2) (8.1) 'Class II all-terrain vehicle' means a motorized, off-highway recreational vehicle which is not a class I all-terrain vehicle and which is 65 inches or less in width with a dry weight of 2,000 pounds or less that travels on four or more nonhighway tires and is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain.
> 
> (8.2) 'Class III all-terrain vehicle' means any motor vehicle that:
> 
> (A) Weighs more than a class I II all-terrain vehicle and less than 8,000 pounds;
> (B) Is designed for or capable of cross-country travel on or immediately over land, water, sand, snow, ice, marsh, swampland, or other natural terrain; and
> (C) Is actually being operated off a highway."
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Now, my buggy has a width of 78" which disqualifies it from Class I and Class II, Class III has no width requirement, but (C) is subjective? "Is actually being operated off a highway" - well I never take my buggy off-road.  Does that disqualify it from Class III?
> 
> Here is my question and the important part.  If I drive my buggy on the road (no highways) and it meets all DOT requirements and I have insurance - if I am pulled over, what can I be ticketed for?
> 
> Can I be ticketed for no insurance if I have insurance?
> 
> Can I be ticketed for equipment violations if I have all required safety equipment?
> 
> Can I be ticketed for no registration/tag if the state refuses to provide those documents?
> 
> I need an official answer on how a patrol officer would handle this situation. If I would be ticketed I need to know the law or code that would reference the legitimacy of said ticket please.
> 
> Thank you for your time in helping me in this matter.


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## Jack1981

Then there is this interesting letter issued in 2005:



> Former Attorney General (1997 to 2011) Thurbert Baker issued a letter declaring that, “The operation of ATVs on public roads does not violate Georgia Law.”


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## Jack1981

Received another follow up this morning...  (this was after the last email directing him to the BMS website to get the specs he requested)

(start at the bottom)



> As always I appreciate your time and invested work on the matter.
> 
> I acknowledge my request is not nearly as important as other traffic matters, so I will patiently wait for what you can discover.
> 
> Stay safe out there.
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> From: xxx
> To: xxx
> Sent: Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:10:50 -0000 (UTC)
> Subject: RE: FW: Dune Buggy Legality
> 
> Mr. xxx, I promise that I am working on this. I am a working supervisor (Meaning I respond to calls on the street and work crashes) It may take a little a week or so but when I am done I should have you every answer you need. Thanks, for sending all the information on it. AJ
> 
> -------------------------------------
> 
> From: xxx
> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2012 10:33 AM
> To: xxx, Andrew J.
> Subject: RE: FW: Dune Buggy Legality
> 
> Sorry, one more thing I discovered in my research.
> 
> Former Attorney General (1997 to 2011) Thurbert Baker issued a letter declaring that, “The operation of ATVs on public roads does not violate Georgia Law.”
> 
> I have the .PDF document for which this was discovered in.
> 
> Now this was back in 2005 - however I have been unable to find any rulings or dialogue beyond this that would redact or strike out this declaration by the former AG.
> 
> Just to re-enforce the goal here (I know I can be a bit long winded), ultimately I just need an "on the record" answer to the following:
> 
> 1. Does the state/county still consider my buggy an "ATV" (exempting from registration) regardless of state definition and code and can I drive my dune buggy on public roads without registration as long as I have proof of insurance and D.O.T. mandated equipment?
> 
> 2. Does the state acknowledge my buggy is not an "ATV" based on state definition and code and will allow me to register my buggy as a motor vehicle (and pay my taxes/fees) like every other citizen?


----------



## Backlasher82

Maybe the laws have changed but the cops had no problem with writing me and my buddy tickets for not having tags on our dirt bikes when we rode them beside the road. According to him, you needed a tag to operate a vehicle on the right-of-way just the same as the road.

We went to court and the judge agreed that we were illegally operating our vehicles due to no tag. This was before the mandatory insurance law but I would be very surprised if they allowed you to operate a vehicle on public roads without a tag now. The govt isn't known for reducing laws.

Farm vehicles, etc are exempt but the exemptions are clearly stated in the law.

Obviously, your easiest route is to make sure your buggy is street legal and buy a tag for it. Otherwise you're going to spend more time getting pulled over and sitting on the side of the road trying to talk yourself out of a ticket than driving. Good luck.


----------



## Jack1981

The question is, before you went to court did you prepare any sort of defense, or have any codes on hand?


----------



## Backlasher82

Nope. We were 18 and believed the court would see that were not purposely breaking the law.

 We rode our bikes up the side of the road about 50' from my buddy's house, got off and walked the bikes across the road and hopped back on once we were off the road. 

When the cop pulled up we rode right over to see what he wanted, never occurred to us that he would write us tickets.

All the judge wanted to know was if we had tags on our bikes. Then he fined us.

After that, we didn't just ride over to see what cops wanted if we didn't have a tag.

I did go to the DMV site to see what vehicles require tags in GA and it isn't as clear cut as it should be. Then again, it's govt. It looks like the gist of it is, off-road vehicles, ATVs, mopeds, etc don't need tags. Just below that it says that street-legal mopeds do.

I take that to mean that as long as you stay off the road you don't need a tag, if you operate it on a public road you need a tag.YMMV

I'm not a cop or lawyer but, as I said before, unless you're just looking to prove a point or enjoy arguing with cops and going to court on a regular basis a tag on the buggy will make your life easier.


----------



## Jack1981

So let us see if you can answer what no one else has been able to.

What exactly would one be ticketed for if operated on the road without registration when operating an exempted vehicle that is insured and has all DOT required equipment?  

Please cite the code.

(by the way, mopeds do not require registration and are legal - just to clarify not all vehicles on the road *have* to have registration)


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> So let us see if you can answer what no one else has been able to.
> 
> What exactly would one be ticketed for if operated on the road without registration when operating an exempted vehicle that is insured and has all DOT required equipment?
> 
> Please cite the code.
> 
> (by the way, mopeds do not require registration and are legal - just to clarify not all vehicles on the road *have* to have registration)



Guess you missed the part where I said I'm not a cop or a lawyer.

Looks like you've decided it'll be legal to drive it on public roads without a tag. Please keep us posted on your adventures once you get it on the road.


----------



## Jack1981

> I'm not a cop or lawyer but, as I said before, unless you're just looking to prove a point or enjoy arguing with cops and going to court on a regular basis a tag on the buggy will make your life easier.



I had interpreted this has a definitive statement I would be going to court and I would be arguing with cops - I just wanted to know what you knew that would make these absolutes.

I have no plan yet - but its always best to have backup plans should the need arise. I will keep the post updated with new info as it becomes available.


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> I had interpreted this has a definitive statement I would be going to court and I would be arguing with cops - I just wanted to know what you knew that would make these absolutes.



I was just giving advise based on my personal experiences with cops. They look for reasons to pull people over, no tag is a good reason, then they find something to write a ticket for. 

It's all about revenue collection. Same thing in court.


----------



## Jack1981

It has simply been my experience that revenue is more easily extracted when the target is, for lack of a better description, ignorant of the law.

I've found in most cases that figures of authority understand that when they encounter someone who clearly has done their homework they are no longer easy pushovers. 

Thankfully in my county, the local LEOs are pretty level headed.

There are situations however where the saying goes, "beat the ticket, not the ride"  which would also translate using "beat the ticket in court, but not beat the ticket being written."

And while yes, this could take up some of my time, it doesn't really cost me anything to address the ticket. (I would just use paid time off from work)

Another saying comes to mind again, "All evil needs to succeed is for good men to do nothing."

If someone doesn't stand up and force clarification or correction, then they will be free to continue to extract revenue from the ignorant. If official records or judges clarify or repeal something, now one has the ammunition to forward such rulings to all local authorities and advise of the change (or clarification) and to respectfully request all employees be notified of such thing.

Then everyone wins.


----------



## Backlasher82

Cool, so what color buggy did you buy?


----------



## Gaducker

Jack1981 said:


> So let us see if you can answer what no one else has been able to.
> 
> What exactly would one be ticketed for if operated on the road without registration when operating an exempted vehicle that is insured and has all DOT required equipment?
> 
> Please cite the code.
> 
> (by the way, mopeds do not require registration and are legal - just to clarify not all vehicles on the road *have* to have registration)



Dose it have an epa approved emmisions system??  cat converter in particular?


----------



## Jack1981

Yes it is EPA approved.


----------



## Panthers65

Its true that mopeds don't require registration, but they are also limited to 50CC engines, 30 mph, and requires no shifting or clutching. The law is very specific about excluding moped registration

Your buggy will require registration since it exceeds those standards. You may thing about looking into the provisions for registering a homemade vehicle. Since the company probably isn't registered with the DMV like a normal auto manufacture is, this may be a way around that. 

This will require the normal registration fees, plus an inspection. 

Stop by the police station, most are required to have a police officer on duty. Give them the situation and ask them what if any ticket they could site, make sure you get the code information. Then go home and get on lexis Nexis (http://www.lexisnexis.com/hottopics/gacode/Default.asp) and verify/dispute the code. Go back up and ask again.


----------



## Jack1981

Did you read the entire thread by chance?


----------



## Gaducker

Jack1981 said:


> Did you read the entire thread by chance?



I have.  Do you have a tag yet?


----------



## Gaducker

Jack1981 said:


> Yes it is EPA approved.



Its epa approved to prevent forest fires but it dose not have a converter on it.


----------



## Jack1981

I'm not sure I understand the relevancy of the EPA or converter dialogue.

The buggy should arrive in about 5-10 business days and around that time my MSO. So I will update as far as the tag goes if I go that route.

Edit: The, "Have read the entire thread?" line was directed at Panther, as he mentioned some things I've already posted up.


----------



## Panthers65

Jack1981 said:


> Edit: The, "Have read the entire thread?" line was directed at Panther, as he mentioned some things I've already posted up.



Yes I had, they were still relevant. I understand your argument, that since the law is gauge it is inadmissible. Its the same argument we as motorcycle riders have been using for years in ga to get the helmet law overturned.

IMO you are going to get nailed for it not being registered. Just because the registration is difficult or impossible doesn't mean your exempt from it. I really hope it works. I worked at a shop that sold those jap mini trucks and the only way the locals could get them on the road was to register it as a farm vehicle. This would fly being in watkinsville.


----------



## merc123

So what did you decide to purchase?  This one or another brand/model?


----------



## Jack1981

Oh I ordered the BMS, just waiting for it to arrive.

I am still waiting on the final response from the county traffic division boss that I've been posting.

With that aside, the state has advised me to show up when it comes with the following:

Form MV1 with body type listed as "DUNEBGY"
Form T-22B executed by a local LEO.
MSO Paperwork
Bill of Sale Paperwork
Proof of Insurance
Payment for Taxes (bought out of state)

I called to confirm this over the phone with the local county and in a somewhat comical way, responded with - "Oh - well if the state DMV HQ told you that then that is what you should bring."

The problem is with DMVs is the same with customer service for any company.  One rep, one answer. Second rep, different answer.

Rinse and repeat.  

So I am prepared with my little binder of important codes and ordinances to present if needed and to please clarify. I've noticed employees are not able to easily blow a customer off in person like they can on the phone.

When you have someone standing in front of you, showing you proof of law and asking, "Well, what do we do about this?" and have a line of other customers waiting and listening - well, you get the idea.

Or if the traffic division boss comes back and says I am good to go with just proof of insurance and so forth, then I just go that route.

I see a lot of defeatism attitudes on this thread - people need to learn to stand up to people in a legal and respectful way when you know something is not quite right.  Not be like this...


----------



## merc123

Let us know how it turns out (buggy and registration).  Interested to see the durability of the buggy.  If it's reliable I may get one to drive back and forth to work.


----------



## Panthers65

Definitely not defeated, like I said I'd love to see you successful, but you asked if we thought you'd get ticketed driving that buggy without registration. I think you will. 

Your on the right track getting the t22 form completed and getting a real registration pushed through. It may take longer, but it'll be worth it in the long run.


----------



## Jack1981

E-mail conversation update from this morning:



> From: Damien (me)
> To: Andrew (traffic division supervisor)
> 
> Good Morning Mr. xxx,
> 
> Since I had a moment before church this morning I figured I would just shoot you an e-mail and make sure I have not fallen through the cracks.
> 
> Approximately 2 weeks ago you advised you would see what you could find.  So I am just checking in to see if you found any relevant info on the questions at hand.
> 
> Once again, I acknowledge what I need is low priority and I will continue to patiently wait, but just wanted to check in with you.
> 
> ---
> 
> From: Andrew (traffic division supervisor)
> To: Damien (me)
> 
> No, Mr. xxx, you haven’t fallen through the cracks. I have been busy and I really haven’t had time to complete it. I will try and get it done this shift. Thanks for your patients, AJ
> 
> ---
> 
> From: Damien (me)
> To: Andrew (traffic division supervisor)
> 
> Mr xxx,
> 
> Thank you for responding.  I'm not sure if that last e-mail came off wrong, but I wanted to say it was not meant in a negative tone. So by all means if I have to wait for a good solid answer that is fine.  It is just my nature, I'm a technical analyst so I just like to make sure everything is OK.  Take care, stay safe out there.


----------



## Panthers65

Sounds like your staying on top of this. Remember, the squeaky wheel gets the geese. Looking forward to hearing the outcome


----------



## Jack1981

Sent a follow up e-mail this morning.



> From: Damien (me)
> To: Andrew (traffic division supervisor)
> 
> Mr. xxx,
> 
> Good morning! Hope all is well.  I just wanted to check back in since its a busy part of the year for you guys. I do want to mention my buggy is coming in via freight either tomorrow or Saturday. Doing my research and taking an educated guess this will still give me a grace window of 30 days if it needs to be registered since it was an out of state purchase from a dealer. So if you need more time to find an answer that should buy you some more time as needed.
> 
> With that said, the clock is ticking at this point, but for now we still have a bit of time.
> 
> If I don't speak to you again till after the holidays, you have a Merry Christmas and as always, stay safe out there.


----------



## merc123

Being a traffic division supervisor you'd think he would have some peons that could do the leg work and get back to you...


----------



## lbzdually

Have you received the buggy yet?  I would like something like that to just mess around on.


----------



## Jack1981

Was suppose to arrive today, but now it is scheduled for delivery on the 26th since they don't run on the weekends and the holidays are coming up.

I'll post some photos as soon as I can.


----------



## Jack1981

Finally. Just got word from my mechanic the freight truck has arrived.

Still no word from Andrew though...


----------



## Panthers65

get some pics of the buggy up, sounds like a cool little ride.


----------



## Jack1981

Stock photo for reference...   :righton: 







Hope to have it together completely by Saturday afternoon...


----------



## merc123

Looks good.


----------



## Jack1981

Wife was nice enough to stop by and snap some photos for me:


----------



## merc123

So you just let it sit in the parking lot and didn't drive it?  

You have to be either the best suspense maker or the worst at reviewing products  

Let us know about the thing already!


----------



## Jack1981

Not done yet. 

Needs an alignment and then have to drain out the factory fluids for new stuff or you can damage the engine.  Hopefully I'll will have a chance to pick it up Friday and give an in-depth initial review. haha


----------



## merc123

I wouldn't mind having one to drive to work.  I hope the dependability is better than the reviews.


----------



## Jack1981

OK, so time for a bit of a review...

I give it 4 out of 5 stars - simply because of some of the minor things.

_The Good:_

*Ride* 

Drives smooth, absolutely no hitches so far in the 30 or so miles I've put on it. Kind of like driving on rails - it goes where you tell it to go.

*Comfort*

For an open air vehicle with performance off-road suspension its nice.  Sure not as comfy as a luxury car, but I did not sense my back, butt, or other limbs were going to hurt for an extended drive.

*Performance*

It will get up and go for sure, about as well as any 1 litre engine.  Stayed mostly in third gear due to the hills around my area, but the fourth gear is good for cruising. First and second gear have plenty of _oomph!_ for 53HP.


_The Bad:_ (some of these are purely subjective...)

*Gas Pedal*

First vehicle I have driven/owned where the pedal is attached to the floor and no suspended from above.  Little awkward at first, but I am getting use to it.  Only other complaint is the responsiveness from the pedal, it is a little stiff to get it going - but I believe it can be adjusted, so maybe something I just need to tweak.

*Turn Signals*

They are on the dash, it is a rocker switch. Up for RIGHT and Down for LEFT - not the end of the world, but once again, a bit awkward.  I see in my future redoing this so I have these up on the steering wheel.

*Brake Pads*

These things are tiny - going to replace ASAP.  They still stop fine in normal traffic, but I don't feel too comfortable with them in an emergency. Going to be the first "mod" for sure to happen and get some beefier pads. 

*Shifter*

Little rough.  Maybe it just needs to be broken in, or maybe I am just use to an automobile manual transmission.  Works perfectly fine, just 'feels rough', but no grinding or anything.


_The Stupid:_

I guess in my excitement last night I went to the gas station to fill up and apparently drove off without putting my gas cap back on.  It was a nice cap too, not plastic, hefty metal cap.  So its resting on some road somewhere between the gas station and my house. 

Guess I will take a trip to Advance Auto Parts today.

_The Interesting:_

Even though I have no reason to think I am doing anything wrong, knowing my luck a mile from my house a county police cruiser turned onto the road behind me.  Road behind me for at least 5 miles then simply turned off on whatever street he was going to. So, still a sigh of relief considering I am in the 30 day period awaiting my papers to register.





















ZOMBIE MODE!!!!






Tucked away for bed time...


----------



## Panthers65

Jack1981 said:


> Even though I have no reason to think I am doing anything wrong, knowing my luck a mile from my house a county police cruiser turned onto the road behind me.  Road behind me for at least 5 miles then simply turned off on whatever street he was going to. So, still a sigh of relief considering I am in the 30 day period awaiting my papers to register.



So you are currently driving without a plate all together, or with temporary plate?


----------



## Jack1981

I don't think any dealer of these types of vehicles issue temp plates in the same sense as an automobile dealership does.

So I have nothing at the moment, however this does not change the fact I have 30 days from taking ownership of a vehicle from a business (private sales = 7 days) to register and tag it.

I cannot be ticketed for no tag during that time period.

A police officer can make the 30 day determination based on the Bill of Landing date and whatever the current date is.

Before you suggest it, putting a hand written temporary tag on is asking to be pulled over since those have not been legit for quite some time since GA dealers started issuing state temp plates.  It is better to not put anything up at all if you don't have a state issued plate of some sort.

But I am also waiting on a response from Mr. Andrew for Columbia County - which may reveal I am exempt from registration anyhow.


----------



## lbzdually

I would hide a GPS tracking device in it somewhere.  That thing just screams 'steal me and go joyriding them drive me off in a lake'.


----------



## Jack1981

I have 2 Welsh Corgis, they are the alarm system for everything.

If a frog (edit f- a- r- t is a bad word??? uh... you guys went a little strict on the language filter there guys?) outside they go to barking.  Quite annoying, but useful for security. haha


----------



## lbzdually

I am interested in fuel economy numbers.  If this thing really gets that good of mileage, we may get rid of our Jetta with the TDI engine and get one of these.  I'm sure this would be a lot more fun.


----------



## Jack1981

I plan to monitor the mileage on my second fill up (I'll give the first tank the "break in" slack just in case). I'll report back what a full tank gets me.

They advertise 61+ MPG - we shall see.


----------



## Panthers65

Jack1981 said:


> I don't think any dealer of these types of vehicles issue temp plates in the same sense as an automobile dealership does.
> 
> So I have nothing at the moment, however this does not change the fact I have 30 days from taking ownership of a vehicle from a business (private sales = 7 days) to register and tag it.
> 
> I cannot be ticketed for no tag during that time period.
> 
> A police officer can make the 30 day determination based on the Bill of Landing date and whatever the current date is.
> 
> Before you suggest it, putting a hand written temporary tag on is asking to be pulled over since those have not been legit for quite some time since GA dealers started issuing state temp plates.  It is better to not put anything up at all if you don't have a state issued plate of some sort.
> 
> But I am also waiting on a response from Mr. Andrew for Columbia County - which may reveal I am exempt from registration anyhow.



True, I'm just surprised the LEO didn't pull you over with nothing on the back of the buggy. I would suspect where you drive this thing will be as big a factor of your level of harassment as what it looks like. 

Hopefully you'll hear from Mr. Andrew this week. Could be a cool deal if everything is on the up and up, I'm about to start looking for a commuter car myself.


----------



## Jack1981

Granted, my advantage (only one I can imagine) is that this buggy looks more 'normal' on the road than say an Polaris RZR which people have been trying to register and getting harrassed while driving.

I am following up with Mr. Andrew today as I still have yet to get a reply back.  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt due to the holidays, but last email I sent was on 12/20 I believe and here we are on 01/07 - so 17 days seems a little excessive...


----------



## Jack1981

OK - more updates.

Dropped buggy back off for the day so they could finish the alignment. They eyeballed it last week because a camera on their machine broke and got it good enough where I could drive it short term. So now its getting a proper alignment today.

Got a small oil leak down where the bottom of the engine block and oil pan meet. Hoping it is simply a gasket issue or even maybe the bolts just need to be tightened. Not a super bad leak - but a leak none the less. Shouldn't be anything I did to damage it as I have not exceeded 3,000RPM in any gear and this thing has a 6,000RPM red line.

Small coolant leak somewhere as well, very small, was unable to locate from an exterior inspection, hoses are good, got to be something underneath.

And finally, small ticking noise from the suspension/wheel area on the back left, pretty sure something just needs to be tightened.

Other than these minor burps - runs smooth regardless. Max speed so far is about 80mph - I could see it getting a little "floaty" the faster I got. Generally keep it 60mph or under since I drive in town mostly.


----------



## Jack1981

Ok finally got a reply back from Mr. Andrew...




> From: Andrew (traffic division supervisor)
> To: Damien (Me)
> 
> Mr. xxx,
> 
> Thanks so much although I have been busy with the Holidays and a bout with the flu I had a wonderful Christmas! Hope yours was good also. With the dune buggy it must have a tag to be driven on the street. There are several violations that would make the equipment and light configurations non-compliant with the law. (I.E. the position of both, the headlights, and the tail lights, that reduce the visibility).  I have spoken with the Probate court and the official answer is, that if the vehicle doesnâ€™t have a tag, they would support a citation being issued. I know this is not the answer that you were hoping for. But frankly, I do not feel that you or others, would be safe enough in this vehicle on the highways. I truly am sorry for the bad news.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Andrew xxx
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> From: Damien (me)
> To: Andrew (traffic division supervisor)
> 
> Mr. xxx,
> 
> Thanks for the info on the tagging of the vehicle. And none of what you say is bad news, any bit of information can help.
> 
> I am not sure I understand their thoughts on the head lamps and tail lamps.  Both are within the height range dictated by the GA traffic codes and both are DOT approved lights (ie; not off-road lights). The only thing not DOT rated were the off road tires, which were changed out to DOT approved street tires.  I did add a set of orange (up front) and red (back) reflectors to the side of the buggy as I could see them having an issue with that, as most cars have those on both sides.
> 
> I cannot fault the probate court as they are going based on photos I am assuming. But based on actual measurements and what the code (Provision 40  etc. etc.) says is proper dimensions, if we are going strictly by the books, I am within the law as far as the equipment goes.
> 
> Thank you for taking the time to look into all this for me. I will simply take my collected paperwork and required forms and go with the original plan of going to the DMV.
> 
> PS:  I had a bout with something like the flu, so I feel your pain â€“ glad everything is better now. Stay safe out there.
> 
> -         Damien



I want to say I hold no ill will towards Mr. Andrew himself. He is a public servant who made the inquires he said he would.  However with that said I am a little disappointed that the probate court feels they can just arbitrarily make up rules on the spot. While I could have provided them, I was never asked for the measurements on the lamps in question.

And just so people don't think I am full of poop:

Head Lights:



> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> § 40-8-22 - Headlights
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-22 (2010) 40-8-22. Headlights
> 
> 
> (a) Every motor vehicle other than a motorcycle or motor driven cycle shall be equipped with at least two but not more than four headlights, with at least one on each side of the front of the motor vehicle, which headlights shall comply with the requirements and limitations set forth in this article.
> 
> (b) Every motorcycle and every motor driven cycle shall be equipped with at least one and not more than two headlights, which shall comply with the requirements and limitations of this article.
> 
> (c) Every headlight upon every motor vehicle, including every motorcycle and motor driven cycle, shall be located at a height measured from the center of the headlight of not more than 54 inches nor less than 24 inches, to be measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21.
> 
> (d) The headlights required by this Code section shall be maintained in proper working condition and shall not be covered by any type of material, provided that the covering restriction shall not apply to any vehicle on which the original factory headlights were covered.
> 
> (e) It shall be unlawful to operate a motor vehicle unless such motor vehicle is equipped with aiming pads on each headlight.



Tail Lights:



> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> § 40-8-23 - Taillights
> 
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-23 (2010) 40-8-23. Taillights
> 
> (a) Every motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer manufactured prior to January 1, 1954, shall be equipped with at least one taillight mounted on the rear, which when lighted as required in this article shall emit a red light plainly visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear.
> 
> (b) Every motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer manufactured after January 1, 1954, shall be equipped with two taillights which meet the specifications provided in this Code section.
> 
> (c) Every taillight upon every vehicle shall be located at a height of not more than 60 inches nor less than 20 inches, to be measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21.
> 
> (d) Either a taillight or a separate light shall be so constructed and placed as to illuminate with a white light the rear registration plate and render it clearly legible from a distance of 50 feet to the rear. Any taillight or taillights, together with any separate light for illuminating the rear registration plate, shall be so wired as to be lighted whenever the headlights or auxiliary driving lights are lighted.
> 
> (e) All lenses on taillights shall be maintained in good repair and shall meet manufacturers' specifications.



Brake Lights:



> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> § 40-8-25 - Brake lights and turn signals required
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-25 (2010) 40-8-25. Brake lights and turn signals required
> 
> (a) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell any motor vehicle manufactured after January 1, 1954, including any motorcycle or motor driven cycle manufactured after January 1, 1954, in this state or for any person to drive such vehicle on the highways unless it is equipped with at least one brake light meeting the requirements of Code Section 40-8-26.
> 
> (b) If a motor vehicle is manufactured with two brake lights, both must be operational.
> 
> (c) No person shall sell or offer for sale or operate on the highways any motor vehicle, trailer, or semitrailer registered in this state and manufactured or assembled after January 1, 1954, unless it is equipped with mechanical or electrical turn signals meeting the requirements of Code Section 40-8-26. This subsection shall not apply to any motorcycle or motor driven cycle manufactured prior to January 1, 1972.



Reflectors:  (which I have extras not even required at this point)



> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> § 40-8-24 - Reflectors
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-24 (2010) 40-8-24. Reflectors
> 
> (a) Every motor vehicle manufactured after March 12, 1954, and operated upon a highway, other than a truck tractor, motorcycle, or motor driven cycle, shall carry on the rear, either as a part of the taillights or separately, two red reflectors, and every motorcycle and every motor driven cycle shall carry on the rear at least one red reflector, meeting the requirements of this Code section.
> 
> (b) Every such reflector shall be mounted on the vehicle at a height not less than 20 inches nor more than 60 inches measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21 and shall be of such size and characteristics and so mounted as to be visible at night from all distances within 300 feet to 50 feet from the rear of such vehicle except that visibility from the greater distance is hereinafter required of reflectors on certain types of vehicles.
> 
> (c) When operated, towed, or parked upon a highway, roadway, or street at any time, every trailer and semitrailer which would otherwise be exempt from this article as an implement of husbandry under Code Section 40-8-1 shall carry on the rear, either as a part of the taillights or separately, two red reflectors and shall carry on the front two red reflectors. The reflectors carried on the rear shall meet the requirements of subsection (b) of this Code section. The reflectors carried on the front of such trailer or semitrailer shall be mounted thereon at a height of not less than 20 inches nor more than 60 inches measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21 and shall be of such size and characteristics and so mounted as to be visible at night from all distances within 300 feet to 50 feet from the front of such trailer or semitrailer.



I don't have the exact numbers on me here at work (I will update this evening) - but this buggy's "lighting equipment" meets all definitions required and allowed by law.

So its a mystery how they would stand behind a citation that cannot or should not be issued in the first place.  So while I have made a good contact in our local county PD - the end result is the same as before the conversation was ever initiated.  Civil servants have no idea and feel they can create decisions not based on what the law defines on the books.

Needless to say, I am not phased one bit.

Getting a ticket or towed will simply open the doors for me force them in a court of law to account for these decisions. While no one wants to risk getting ticketed for fictional reasons, we simply cannot allow our civil servants to adhere to anything BUT what the law of the land states.


----------



## Panthers65

I agree with you, Of all the things they could have sited, the headlights/taillights complaint is a joke. There is nothing wrong with the buggy as far as lighting goes. He sent you a cop-out answer.

The only way the lighting violates any law is the lights on the roof. I ran into this a lot building jeeps while I was in college. Even if the lights on the roof are off, they must have covers on them while your driving the buggy on the street. 

Stretching it, I might be able to see his point on the taillights, being located within the rear "wings" on the buggy. But 30 minutes worth of work and you should be able to move them sufficiently towards the back, where the is absolutely no chance of anything blocking them. Other than that, as long as they are within the height limits there is nothing wrong with the lights once the top ones get covers.

I was expecting that answer, but definitely not for the reasons he listed. I know you feel like a bother to him, but to me that answer would be unacceptable. The law is very clear on the lights, and I see no reason your buggy wouldn't pass that requirement. I still believe it will need to be tagged to operate on the street, but the lights have nothing to do with it. 

Again, I know it's a pain but I'd be at the police station having an officer inspect the vehicle and quote exactly what citations he/she would issue if they found you operating on the road. Tow the buggy there to keep everything legal while your in the "research phase. I believe most officers, at least I hope, would have respect for you trying to do the right thing before hand instead of just doing what you want and dealing with the consequences later.


----------



## Jack1981

The only reason I am choosing not to continue the conversation is it will serve no purpose other than to create tension between the two of us.  I am not going to change his mind via e-mail, nor are his answers / opinions grounded in facts - but he is welcome to think they are.

Think of it this way; we will agree to disagree, but the law is on my side.  And that is all that matters to me.

I checked the law to see if there was an ordinance about having the rear lights be partially visible from the side and I can find nothing.  The rear lights are perfectly visible where they are from the rear.  But if push comes to shove I can simply wire some some red led reflector lights on the side of each wing that light up when the brake lights are engaged.  But I don't see why it should come to that, nothing on the books says I should.

I also cannot find anything regarding the coverage of the roof lights.  No they are not on when on the road, but I hardly see why covering them somehow makes it OK - but once again - I can find nothing (can you show me by chance?) that references that covers must be present as I see Jeeps (newer models at that) all the time that have no roof light covers.

For the record I have no problems registering it - the intent was never to ultimately find a way out of that, but to see if it was in fact required. 

This is nothing more than another tally on the scoreboard of, "So you would write me a citation, but you cannot provide the GA or county code that makes said citation legal and justified?"


----------



## lbzdually

It kills me every time they cite your safety as the reason you can't ride something like this on the road, yet they allow motorcycles.  Motorcycles have to no cage to protect you like this does and the lights on a motorcycle are not even as good as this.


----------



## Jack1981

I am real tempted to volunteer my vehicle to the below idea. Kind of hard to cite unsafe if it has a certificate eh?



> 40-8-200. Inspection of vehicles by officers of the Department of Public Safety; issuance of certificate of inspection; procedure
> 
> 
> (a) The commissioner of public safety and members of the Department of Public Safety, and such other officers and employees of the department as the commissioner may designate, may at any time, upon reasonable cause to believe that a vehicle is unsafe or not equipped as required by law or that its equipment is not in proper adjustment or repair, require the driver of such vehicle to stop and submit such vehicle to an inspection and such tests with reference thereto as may be appropriate.
> 
> *(b) In the event such vehicle and its equipment are found to be in safe condition and in full compliance with the law, the officer making such an inspection shall issue to the driver an official certificate of inspection and approval of such vehicle specifying those parts or equipment so inspected and approved.*
> 
> (c) In the event such vehicle is found to be in unsafe condition or any required part or equipment is not present or is not in proper repair and adjustment, the officer shall give a written notice to the driver and shall send a copy to the department. Such notice shall require that such vehicle be placed in safe condition and its equipment in proper repair and adjustment specifying the particulars with reference thereto and shall require that a certificate of inspection and approval be obtained within 30 days.


----------



## Napi

"(b) Every motor vehicle, trailer, semitrailer, and pole trailer manufactured after January 1, 1954, shall be equipped with two taillights which meet the specifications provided in this Code section.

(c) Every taillight upon every vehicle shall be located at a height of not more than 60 inches nor less than 20 inches, to be measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21."

Been watching this thread. Nice buggy! If the above is true, then many trailers on the road today do not meet the specifications for taillight minimum height, if it is measured from the ground. (I didn't look up sub section b. Many are only 12" off the ground.


----------



## merc123

You forgot 40-8-21 in your quotes.

This is important to the tail lights.  Must be visible when upon a straight, level, unlit highway.  If a car makes a 90* turn into a driveway, I can usually not see the tail lights any more.  If said car were on a straight, level, unlit highway I could see them.  




> § 40-8-21 - Visibility distance and mounted height; exception for wreckers
> 
> (a) Whenever this article declares the required distance from which certain lights and devices shall render objects visible or within which such lights or devices shall be visible, such provisions shall apply during the times stated in Code Section 40-8-20 in respect to a vehicle without load when upon a straight, level, unlighted highway under normal atmospheric conditions, unless a different time or condition is expressly stated.
> 
> (b) Except as provided in subsection (c) of this Code section, whenever this article declares the required mounted height of lights or devices, it shall mean the distance from the center of such light or device to the level ground upon which the vehicle stands when such vehicle is without a load.
> (c)(1) As used in this subsection, the term "wrecker" means any vehicle designed to tow other vehicles.


----------



## Jack1981

Yes, they are just as visible as any other compact car on the market from a distance at night.

I think for fun tonight I'll take a video from a good distance for not only the head lamps, but the tail lamps and also the turn signals.

Maybe put it on YouTube and send the link to Andrew just to show I'm not full of poop. haha!


----------



## Jack1981

On a more comical note I called 3-1-1 to ask about that vehicle certification - and although its listed in the state code, from what I gathered it is like emissions, in that counties decide if they perform that type of inspection.

Apparently Columbia County does not...


----------



## Jack1981

After further thought I felt that it would in fact be a cop-out to not send one final e-mail to Mr. Andrew.

Not because I think it changes anything, but because I have the opportunity to expose to him the idea that the place he is getting his information is either horribly out-dated or bring awareness that his sources are full of doo-doo.  I will continue to work off the assumption that he simply asked someone to get the information and is not claiming it was someone else when it is in fact his own words.

I need to attach the photos this afternoon, but here is the rough draft.

Does it sound respectful enough, but also give the impression "I'm not stupid. I know how to look up codes. I am not a push over." ???



> Andrew,
> 
> I had every intention of parting ways - but I wanted to share one last e-mail with you and I hold zero ill-will towards anyone and if we never get a chance to speak again I want to express my gratitude for taking the time when you could to check into a non-emergency matter.  I accept you are relying on the knowledge of your fellow county workers when you passed along the info from te previous e-mail.
> 
> With that said, I feel compelled to simply share with you the Georgia Code on the specific subject of what they said to you, as well as share some photos I took just this afternoon. Now I am not attempting to change anyone's mind, especially opinion based ones on safety (everyone is entitled to an opinion), but I think it would be a large cop-out for myself to not challenge the information given to you.
> 
> So unless the county employee(s) you spoke to can share their source for what they are attempting to claim, I'm going to have to respectfully dismiss their assertions and claims.
> 
> I am going to include the codes, but to keep the e-mail short only include the text involved with the codes that pertains to 'visibility' or 'measurements'.  Some of the code is irrelevant to our discussion.  And then you can view the attached photos which were taken using a meassuring tape starting from the asphalt.  As you will see, I am no where near any height of discretion - clearly and without question I am within the required dimensions put forth by Georgia State Law.
> 
> My front head lamp heights =
> 
> Rear tail lamp heights =
> 
> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> 
> O.C.G.A. 440-8-22. Head Lights - "Every headlight upon every motor vehicle, including every motorcycle and motor driven cycle, shall be located at a height measured from the center of the headlight of not more than 54 inches nor less than 24 inches, to be measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-23 Tail Lights  - "(c) Every taillight upon every vehicle shall be located at a height of not more than 60 inches nor less than 20 inches, to be measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21."
> 
> "...which when lighted as required in this article shall emit a red light plainly visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-25 Brake lights - (b) If a motor vehicle is manufactured with two brake lights, both must be operational."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-24 Reflectors  - (a) Every motor vehicle manufactured after March 12, 1954, and operated upon a highway, other than a truck tractor, motorcycle, or motor driven cycle, shall carry on the rear, either as a part of the taillights or separately, two red reflectors, and every motorcycle and every motor driven cycle shall carry on the rear at least one red reflector, meeting the requirements of this Code section."
> 
> "(b) Every such reflector shall be mounted on the vehicle at a height not less than 20 inches nor more than 60 inches measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21 and shall be of such size and characteristics and so mounted as to be visible at night from all distances within 300 feet to 50 feet from the rear of such vehicle except that visibility from the greater distance is hereinafter required of reflectors on certain types of vehicles."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-26 Turn Signals - "(2) A light or lights or mechanical signal device capable of clearly indicating any intention to turn either to the right or to the left and which shall be visible from both the front and the rear."
> 
> Now you are welcome to check the codes if you are so inclined to verify I am not yanking your chain or full of crap.  I wanted to share this information with you because to put it quite frankly, whomever relayed that previous information either made an honest mistake from memory, or really is not familiar at all with current vehicle codes.
> 
> Take this information for what you will and is given from a respectful standpoint, I just decided I can not be silent on very bad information given to you by whomever you had contact with.
> 
> As always, stay safe out there.
> 
> - Damien


----------



## Backlasher82

Does the buggy comply with these DOT requirements?

http://www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/import/fmvss/index.html


----------



## Jack1981

To those that apply? Yes.


----------



## Backlasher82

I would have sworn you said it didn't have windshield wipers but it's a pretty long thread. So, windshield defrosters, etc all working fine?

I'm not trying to be an advocate for the DOT, NHTSA or any of the other Govt agencies, I think we are regulated too much as it is. But I have known people who have brought "Gray market" motorcycles into the US from Europe or Canada and I've seen the hoops they have had to jump through trying to make them street legal. Most give up and put them on the track.

I went to the buggy website and nowhere on there did I see where they are street legal. I saw "50 state legal" but all that means is that you can use them offroad in California legally.

If you can convince the guy you've been talking to into giving you a tag for it, you need to buy him a big steak dinner. And that still probably won't be the end of it. But it sounds like you may relish going up against the Feds on this. Good for you.

One last item. You said the 53HP was pretty fast for a liter engine. 

A 1 liter BMW S1000 has 190HP, GSXR1000 has 182HP. Maybe an engine swap in the future?


----------



## Panthers65

The roof lights are higher than the legal headlight height on a typical jeep, and this is what the ticket is for. I have seen this ticket both written and upheld in court. Putting the opaque covers on them removes the ability for them to count as headlights, just don't leave them on with the lights on, I've seen the lights get hot enough to melt the covers

Edit: also Georgia restricts your front headlights to 4, you have 6 forward facing lights


----------



## Jack1981

Backlaser82 the important thing you are missing is not all items in there apply to everything motorized. And they are also appear to be a guideline to being certified by the federal government to sell something considered an automobile.

To make it simple, a motorcycle nor a moped have windshield wipers or defrosters.  This is obvious because they are not automobiles.

Edit: or for that matter 'low speed vehicles' - and those are also allowed on certain roads

Neither is the dunge buggy.

Anyhow, pictures in question....


----------



## Jack1981

> The roof lights are higher than the legal headlight height on a typical jeep, and this is what the ticket is for.



Unless you can provide the stock height on a jeep with these lights I'm going to risk saying no way.  This thing has some ride clearance, but no way my rack lights are taller than where a jeep's would be...

I'm 6 foot tall and I am looking OVER the roof of the buggy while standing next to it by a few inches.


----------



## Jack1981

And just snapped these.

Granted its not at 300-500 feet, but I think its safe to say the laws of "its dark out" and they "light up" would indicate clear visibility from the distance...






And while not required, I added these red/orange reflectors on each side...


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> Backlaser82 the important thing you are missing is not all items in there apply to everything motorized. And they are also appear to be a guideline to being certified by the federal government to sell something considered an automobile.
> 
> To make it simple, a motorcycle nor a moped have windshield wipers or defrosters.  This is obvious because they are not automobiles.



And what you are missing is cars and motorcycles are completely different and have different requirements. 

If you expect to have any chance of getting your buggy on the road legally you should quit comparing it to motorcycles and mopeds. What you have there will have to meet automobile standards, not motorcycle.

 I wish you luck but unless you can get out of your mindset of "Well it isn't required for mopeds, so it should be fine" you don't have a prayer.


----------



## Jack1981

You are assuming way to much.

I focus on people who build dune buggies from old VM frames and then register and drive them.

Once again that is a comprehensive federal website to be vetted to sell motor vehicles to the public and has little to do with state ran roads and such. It is more of a business control method.

The feds don't dictate what it is allowed on GA roads, GA does.  Thus I'll worry about GA traffic and motor vehicle laws, no laws by the federal government to allow the sale of them.

Simply put, that website has no effect on anything related to this.


----------



## Backlasher82

You haven't thought this through. There is a reason why cars perfectly legal in other countries aren't imported into the US, that's because of the federal regulations required make it cost prohibitive to meet the regs. 

Those federal regulations apply to every vehicle licensed for use on public roads. Older vehicles have fewer restrictions.  Kit cars and other custom build can be made street legal but it isn't as simple as walking into the tag office and buying a tag.

You would do well to carefully read that link I gave you and get all your ducks in a row, it will help in the long run.

I can tell you if you go into the tag office and start telling them about moped regs it's going nowhere.

Jack: Well, mopeds aren't required to have that.

DMV: I thought you said it was a dune buggy?

Jack: Well, it is, but mopeds don't have to have windshield wipers.

DMV: You don't have a moped.

Jack: But mopeds...

DMV: Sir, how many wheels does it have?

Jack: Four but...

DMV: Sir, it isn't a moped. Do I look like an idiot?

Jack: Well...

DMV: Good day sir. I will flag this file and make it my life's work to make sure you never get a tag.

Jack: But...

DMV: I said, good day sir!

In other words, rethink your position and for any possibility at all of success, drop the moped thing!


Edit: BTW, I assume you meant VW frames and not VM. There is a reason they are able to get around the requirements, it's because they were at one time street legal and still have titles saying that. All they have to do is make sure the lighting, etc meets the standard that applies to 1960-70 VWs. Your vehicle was never certified for use on public roads, the requirements will be different.


----------



## Jack1981

edit: Took out my long winded response,  there is no point in trying to educate you when you come up with such ridiculous ideas.

All I can say is, spend as much time as I have research ordinances and codes, locally and federally, and then come back.

Googling a federal website and assuming you understand the often chaotic interconnections between the two is silly. 

(ps: you missed the entire point of why mopeds are even part of the discussion, the same as motorcycles and LSV's.)

Here I'll help, start with this:



> Questions frequently arise regarding whether cities and counties may lawfully adopt ordinances regulating traffic. For instance, may a city or county allow the operation of golf carts on streets within its boundaries? May a city adopt an ordinance defining speeding as violation of city code, punishable by a fine? May a city prohibit the use of mobile telephones by drivers within its jurisdiction?
> 
> The answer to these questions hinges upon a two-part inquiry. First, is the local government authorized to regulate in this area?  Second, is the proposed ordinance consistent with state and federal law?
> 
> The general ordinance-making powers of cities and counties are defined in G.S. 160A-174 and G.S. 153A-121. Cities and counties may adopt ordinances regulating acts “detrimental to the health, safety, or welfare of its citizens and the peace and dignity of the [city or county].”  G.S. 153A-121; 160A-174.
> 
> G.S. 160A-296 provides that cities have general authority and control over (which includes the power to regulate the use of) the public streets, sidewalks, alleys, and bridges within their jurisdictions, except to the extent that authority and control is vested in the Board of Transportation.  Several additional provisions in Chapter 160A expressly permit local regulation of traffic.  See, e.g., G.S. 160A-300 (permitting cities to regulate pedestrian or vehicular traffic on public streets, sidewalks, alleys and bridges within the city); G.S. 160A-300.1 (permitting cities to install red light cameras and impose civil penalties for running a red light in violation of G.S. 20-158); G.S. 160A-300.6 (authorizing cities, notwithstanding contrary provisions of state law, to allow and regulate the operation of golf carts on public streets); G.S. 160A-301 (allowing cities to regulate parking).
> 
> Counties are in a different posture, however, as G.S. 153A-121(b) specifies that counties’ general ordinance-making powers do not confer authority to “regulate or control vehicular or pedestrian traffic on a street or highway under control of the Board of Transportation.” Since all public roads in the county are state-controlled, counties can only regulate in this area as specifically authorized by other provisions of state law.
> 
> The state’s motor vehicle laws expressly authorize local regulation of certain traffic activities.  See G.S. 20-141 (authorizing local authorities to set higher or lower speed limits on certain streets within their jurisdictions); G.S. 20-158 (permitting local authorities to erect traffic signs and signals); G.S. 20-169 (authorizing local authorities to enact ordinances that: (1) regulate heavy or continuous traffic by signaling device; (2) establish one-way streets; (3) regulate use of the highways by processions or assemblages;  (3) set speed limits in public parks; and (4) authorize law enforcement or emergency vehicles to preempt traffic signals).
> 
> When a proposed vehicle regulation is expressly sanctioned by state statute, such as the regulation of golf carts on public streets, see G.S. 153A-245 and 160A-300.6 (discussed here), the inquiry ends, and the local government may act pursuant to the statutorily conferred authority.
> 
> In contrast, when the regulation satisfies a generally permissible purpose but is not expressly authorized, the local government must consider whether the proposed regulation is consistent with state law.  See G.S. 160A-174(b). And while there are obvious ways in which regulation may conflict with state or federal law, such as by permitting conduct expressly forbidden by state or federal law or by regulating a verboten subject, there are two other, less intuitive, ways in which local regulation may be deemed inconsistent.



(think very carefully before you use the "...consistent with state and federal law?" as a basis for your argument)


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> Backlaser82 the important thing you are missing is not all items in there apply to everything motorized. And they are also appear to be a guideline to being certified by the federal government to sell something considered an automobile.
> 
> To make it simple, a motorcycle nor a moped have windshield wipers or defrosters.  This is obvious because they are not automobiles.



It seems someone else took over your account and posted this argument about mopeds in your name. My apologies, I thought it was you.


----------



## gtmcwhorter

Just put a farm triangle on the back of it.  I grew up in rural Hart Co. and after getting pulled over numerous times for riding four wheelers on road a deputy finally told me to do that.  Never had another problem.  Might be a problem in posh Columbia County though, looks like your in a neighborhood and not a rural setting.


----------



## Panthers65

Jack1981 said:


> Unless you can provide the stock height on a jeep with these lights I'm going to risk saying no way.  This thing has some ride clearance, but no way my rack lights are taller than where a jeep's would be...
> 
> I'm 6 foot tall and I am looking OVER the roof of the buggy while standing next to it by a few inches.


I'm not talking about stock headlights. Any forward facing light on your vehicle is considered a headlight, the lights on your roof put you over the legal limit of 4 headlights, and are probably above the height max as well, there for will need covers on them. Once covered, they no longer count as headlights.


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> (ps: you missed the entire point of why mopeds are even part of the discussion, the same as motorcycles and LSV's.)
> 
> Here I'll help, start with this:
> 
> 
> 
> (think very carefully before you use the "...consistent with state and federal law?" as a basis for your argument)



Nope, I didn't miss the point any of the times in this thread you have tried to use mopeds to make your case. My point is that mopeds are completely irrelevant in your case and you are only going to hurt your argument if you bring them up when talking to the DMV.

If you have relevant facts concerning your application for a tag for your vehicle, that's all you need to bring to the DMV. Talking about mopeds will not help your case and will only seem like you are trying to distract them. It hasn't worked in this thread, I seriously doubt the DMV will appreciate your moped references and you'll lose any credibility the first time you mention mopeds.

In researching this project I'm sure you talked to many people who were able to make these buggies street legal and were able to obtain tags for them. What steps did they have to go through?

Knowing that even after getting tags they are going to be targeted for traffic stops, were they able to carry documentation to convince cops they were operating within the law or do they still get written equipment violations?

How have they addressed the questions of lighting that have come up in this thread?

Were they required to have windshield wipers, etc? If not, how did they handle getting caught in a summer popup thunderstorm?

How are the brakes, handling, etc in long term street use in their experience? Are they prone to rollover? How do they hold up in a crash?      

Do you have a link to a forum for people who drive these on the street? I would be interested to read what they had to do to make them street legal and how they feel about their experience.


----------



## Jack1981

I'm not really interested in debating the numerous items that come up here unless people start citing Georgia state laws/codes or federals one that specifically say they override state rulings.

You guys act just like the civil servants of our county. So far a whole lot of "well its the truth" and no codes or ordinance listings to back it up.

So I'm saying it right now. I am all for conversation, but I'm claiming the 'Bull Doo' flag on all of you until such time.

So until you start associating a code/law I can read that I have not found, your statements will be dismissed as opinion and not fact - just as it should be.  Now you find a code or ordinance to back it, we can talk.

Give it a whirl, you might like it.  Armchair lawyering serves no one any use.


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> I'm not really interested in debating the numerous items that come up here unless people start citing Georgia state laws/codes or federals one that specifically say they override state rulings.
> 
> You guys act just like the civil servants of our county. So far a whole lot of "well its the truth" and no codes or ordinance listings to back it up.
> 
> So I'm saying it right now. I am all for conversation, but I'm claiming the 'Bull Doo' flag on all of you until such time.
> 
> So until you start associating a code/law I can read that I have not found, your statements will be dismissed as opinion and not fact - just as it should be.  Now you find a code or ordinance to back it, we can talk.
> 
> Give it a whirl, you might like it.  Armchair lawyering serves no one any use.



Do you know of anybody in the US who has succeeded in making one of these buggies street legal?


----------



## Gaducker

I still don't think you will get a tag for it.  But I am still watching.


----------



## Jack1981

Backlasher82 said:


> Do you know of anybody in the US who has succeeded in making one of these buggies street legal?



The answer is out there.

I'm done doing your work for you.  Why don't you go spend your time scouring the internet and come let others know the answer.



> I still don't think you will get a tag for it. But I am still watching.



It took 4 DMV workers (and a few hours in phone calls between the ATL HQ and local) to finally get one who understood the books. I'm simply waiting for my MSO and it is a done deal.

Required Stuff:

Bill of Sale
Manufacturer Statement of Origin
Form T-22B
Proof of Insurance
Drivers License
Proof of Residence
Form MV-1
Tax Payment (since out of state purchase)

The MSO listing "ATV" is irrelevant, the buggy has measurements that disqualify it from this category as it has width of 72".

The point of the e-mail with Andrew at the local SO was opinion based and to inquire if the Buggy was just flat exempt from registration to save on paying about $600 in taxes. It would also save me the hassle of wiring a light to the license plate as required by law.  Neither of which is a super big deal - but if the government shouldn't have my money I want to know.

The whole thread has little to do with actual law and more to do with playing "whack-a-mole" to find a DMV employee who actually knows the rules they are paid to enforce.

Another cop rolled up behind me on Washington Rd at a light.  Was behind me about 2 miles before I had to turn off to enter the bank parking lot. Guess what, he kept on driving.

2 for 2.  Apparently these cops don't agree its not safe.


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> The answer is out there.
> 
> I'm done doing your work for you.  Why don't you go spend your time scouring the internet and come let others know the answer.



Yep, didn't think so.


----------



## Jack1981

Maybe there is a misunderstanding here.

The answer is out there, multiple examples I've found.

But you are no better than a government employee.  When challenged to do some work or provide a code or ordinance you choose not to.

I bet you are the kind of person to enjoy the fruits of other peoples labors. Grow up.


----------



## Backlasher82

Jack1981 said:


> Maybe there is a misunderstanding here.
> 
> The answer is out there, multiple examples I've found.
> 
> But you are no better than a government employee.  When challenged to do some work or provide a code or ordinance you choose not to.
> 
> I bet you are the kind of person to enjoy the fruits of other peoples labors. Grow up.



It was a simple question. If you had actually talked to anybody who had made one of these buggies street legal all you would have done is provide a link. You haven't been able to give any straight answers and I thought there may be a more informed source. Sorry you got your feelings hurt but since this is your project I thought you may have discussed it with someone with some experience.

You make too many wrong assumptions, I'm full grown.


----------



## merc123

Backlasher82 said:


> Do you know of anybody in the US who has succeeded in making one of these buggies street legal?



Yes. Guy on YouTube shows it. Just changed out the tires to dot tires.


----------



## Jack1981

Just add him to the ignore function.  He clearly has nothing of value to add to the conversation.


----------



## turtlebug

Jack1981 said:


> Just add him to the ignore function.  He clearly has nothing of value to add to the conversation.



Ran across this on a HotRod forum. 

Georgia

In Georgia you can contact the DMV or go to their web page get a form then request that a DMV officer come out to your location and inspect the vehicle. At that time they will issue you a vin number and tag the car with that vin embossed on a metal tag. With that and the insurance go to the tag office. The form needed is T-22B I believe the cost is 50 beans

Custom cars built in Georgia that are less than 25 years old follow the same registration, title, and tag procedures as a regular passenger vehicle.

You will need a valid Georgia driver's license, proof of insurance, and the appropriate fees and taxes. Georgia charges an $18 title fee and a $20 registration fee. Tag costs and taxes will vary by county.

No title or certificate will be issued to any car unless it meets the emissions standards adopted by the state. Your vehicle will need to be inspected prior to being registered.

Hobby and antique vehicles over 25 years old (or vehicles manufactured to resemble such vehicles) are eligible for a special license plate through the state of Georgia. These cars do not require any special permits to operate on state roadways as long as they display a valid tag.

Questions about registering, titling, and tagging your custom-built, hobby, or antique car should be directed to your county tax commissioner. This office can also tell you the specific fees involved to register and title your vehicle.

Homemade trailers have their own registration process, and they receive special tags. Such trailers are not titled
 

Everyone I've know who had one LEGALLY registered to drive on the roads, had it listed as a self-built vehicle and had the appropriate inspections and fulfilled all of the requirements to LEGALLY operate them on public roads, although not on Interstates. 

Two things. I don't agree with the moped laws. If it has two wheels and a motor, no matter if it's 50cc or less, it should be tagged and insured. If you're going to drive it on the streets, you should be required to have a tag on it and the required insurance. No exceptions. 

In 41 years, I have only ever known of ONE "ATV" that was street legal. That ATV belongs to a man with cerebral palsy. His is street legal and has a tag, insurance and meets all the requirements needed to obtain a tag. 

Your "vehicle" doesn't have a VIN, correct?


----------



## Jack1981

Yes it does have a 17 digit VIN number.   Its on a stamped plate attached to the chassis behind the cabin, along with the EPA approval stampage - so if I *did* live in a county that required emissions testing I would pass that too.  

Like I said, I already know the steps to register and have the green light. I am just waiting for my MSO to arrive from the manufacturer.

I was more interested in a possible exemption to avoid giving the government $600 of my money via taxes on an out of state purchase.

But no big deal in the end.


----------



## Jack1981

Here snapped this for you:

(CA has the most stringent emissions standards in the country, so passing CA = passing every state)


----------



## turtlebug

Jack1981 said:


> Yes it does have a 17 digit VIN number.   Its on a stamped plate attached to the chassis behind the cabin, along with the EPA approval stampage - so if I *did* live in a county that required emissions testing I would pass that too.
> 
> Like I said, I already know the steps to register and have the green light. I am just waiting for my MSO to arrive from the manufacturer.
> 
> I was more interested in a possible exemption to avoid giving the government $600 of my money via taxes on an out of state purchase.
> 
> But no big deal in the end.




So this entire thread is truly more about avoiding paying taxes than how to legally get it on the road?


----------



## Dustin Pate

Jack1981 said:


> Just add him to the ignore function.  He clearly has nothing of value to add to the conversation.



It was a yes or no question. There was no need for you to be rude about it. It had nothing to do with him looking it up.


----------



## Gaducker

Jack1981 said:


> Here snapped this for you:
> 
> (CA has the most stringent emissions standards in the country, so passing CA = passing every state)



That's an epa approval for an off road vehicle.  On road motorcycles have cat converters now because of the fine folks in California.   

I am not against you on this but if you can get a tag for this theres no reason I could not get a tag for a  4x4 Suzuki mini truck. And you can bet if you get a tag for this this sets a precident that the state of ga better be prepared to follow.


----------



## Jack1981

> It was a yes or no question. There was no need for you to be rude about it. It had nothing to do with him looking it up.



And I did answer his repeated questions, but many posts ago he decided he was more entertained by being a government advocate than taking the time to understand all the data posted. He also very clearly believes what he says should be taken as fact without presenting proof, you know, like I have on multiple occasions. I was very clear I would discuss anything he would like to, but he was going to start having to provide proof like I have taken the time and research to do the entire thread.

He made the choice not to do to that. So I made the choice he is full of hot air since he absolutely refuses to back his statements with any evidence. 

He wants the reward of being right without the work to prove it.



> That's an epa approval for an off road vehicle. On road motorcycles have cat converters now because of the fine folks in California.



I did not see the term 'off-road' in there so I did not know that. I never needed to research it further because my county doesn't care about that stuff. haha



> I am not against you on this but if you can get a tag for this theres no reason I could not get a tag for a 4x4 Suzuki mini truck. And you can bet if you get a tag for this this sets a precident that the state of ga better be prepared to follow.



That is the other point of the thread, to put the information out there for others to use. There is already data out there on people registering dune buggys, suped up go-karts, and yes 4x4 "mini trucks".  The problem is it is sporadic and varies from county to county.

You get no argument from me if you meet the equipment requirements and if this thread serves as ammo down the road for someone else to get the county to adhere to the books then I would be extremely satisfied.

However its still lame for someone to be all like, "you'll never get it done" and then when it gets done, they use someone else's hard work to reap the benefits after having been nothing but a negative nancy the whole time.

edit: In all fairness the mini truck stuff I came across they registered it as a LSV as a work around. I did not look into it beyond that, since that is not what I own or am trying to get a 'standard' registration for.  But as I said, I agree with you on the whole idea.

Have you taken the time to research it yet with your county?  You'll be sorely disappointed if you simply take the word of others or county employees without checking into the ordinances yourself.


----------



## Jack1981

All I've found so far on the roof lights... (still researching)

Law seems to word it as "in use" on the road.  Nothing about having them covered or not allowed when not in use...



> 2010 Georgia Code
> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> § 40-8-29 - Spotlights, foglights, and auxiliary lights permitted
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-29 (2010)
> 
> 40-8-29. Spotlights, foglights, and auxiliary lights permitted
> 
> 
> (a) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed one spotlight, and no lighted spotlight shall be aimed and used upon any approaching vehicle. It shall be unlawful for any person except law enforcement officers and persons licensed under Chapter 38 of Title 43 to operate a spotlight from any moving vehicle on any highway or public roadway.
> 
> (b) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed two foglights mounted on the front at a height not less than 12 inches nor more than 30 inches above the level surface upon which the vehicle stands and so aimed that when the vehicle is not loaded none of the high intensity portion of the light to the left of the center of the vehicle shall at a distance of 25 feet ahead project higher than a level of four inches below the level of the center of the light from which it comes.
> 
> (c) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed one auxiliary passing light mounted on the front at a height not less than 24 inches nor more than 42 inches above the level surface upon which the vehicle stands, and every such auxiliary passing light shall meet the requirements and limitations set forth in this article.
> 
> (d) Any motor vehicle may be equipped with not to exceed one auxiliary driving light mounted on the front at a height not less than 16 inches nor more than 42 inches above the level surface upon which the vehicle stands, and every such auxiliary driving light shall meet the requirements and limitations set forth in this article.


----------



## Jack1981

Revised the letter and sent it a few minutes ago.

Attached four pictures for his reference.  Ball is in his court if he just wants to ignore the e-mail or respond.



> Andrew,
> 
> I had every intention of parting ways - but I wanted to share one last e-mail with you and I hold zero ill-will towards anyone and if we never get a chance to speak again I want to express my gratitude for taking the time when you could to check into a non-emergency matter.  I accept you are relying on the knowledge of your fellow county workers when you passed along the info from the previous e-mail.
> 
> With that said, I feel compelled to simply share with you the Georgia Code on the specific subject of what they said to you, as well as share some photos I took. Now I am not attempting to change anyone's mind, especially opinion based ones on safety (everyone is entitled to an opinion, I believe mopeds and motorcycles are far more dangerous), but I would be disappointed with myself if I did not at least take the time to share the information I have found.
> 
> So unless the county employee(s) you spoke to can share their source for what they are attempting to claim, I'm going to have to respectfully dismiss their answer.
> 
> From my very first e-mail I asked if specific codes could be shared with me if there was in fact something I needed to know. However all I have received from every point of contact in the county are opinions.
> 
> I am going to include the codes, but to keep the e-mail short only include the text involved with the codes that pertains to "visibility" or "measurements".  Some of the code is irrelevant to our discussion.  And then you can view the attached photos which were taken using a measuring tape starting from the asphalt.  As you will see, I am no where near any height of that would be called into question  - clearly and without doubt I am within the required dimensions put forth by Georgia State Law.
> 
> My front head lamp heights = 35 Inches (state requirement = no less than 24" and no greater than 54")
> 
> Rear tail lamp heights = 39 Inches (state requirement = no less than 20" and no greater than 60")
> 
> ---
> 
> TITLE 40 - MOTOR VEHICLES AND TRAFFIC
> CHAPTER 8 - EQUIPMENT AND INSPECTION OF MOTOR VEHICLES
> ARTICLE 1 - EQUIPMENT GENERALLY
> PART 2 - LIGHTING EQUIPMENT
> 
> O.C.G.A. 440-8-22. Head Lights - "Every headlight upon every motor vehicle, including every motorcycle
> and motor driven cycle, shall be located at a height measured from the
> center of the headlight of not more than 54 inches nor less than 24
> inches, to be measured as set forth in subsection (b) of Code Section
> 40-8-21."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-23 Tail Lights  - "(c) Every taillight upon every vehicle shall be located at a height of
> not more than 60 inches nor less than 20 inches, to be measured as set
> forth in subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21."
> 
> "...which when lighted as required in this article shall emit a red light plainly visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-25 Brake lights - (b) If a motor vehicle is manufactured with two brake lights, both must be operational."
> 
> O.C.G.A. 40-8-24 Reflectors  - (a) Every motor vehicle manufactured after March 12, 1954, and operated
> upon a highway, other than a truck tractor, motorcycle, or motor driven
> cycle, shall carry on the rear, either as a part of the taillights or
> separately, two red reflectors, and every motorcycle and every motor
> driven cycle shall carry on the rear at least one red reflector, meeting
> the requirements of this Code section."
> 
> "(b) Every such reflector shall be mounted on the vehicle at a height not
> less than 20 inches nor more than 60 inches measured as set forth in
> subsection (b) of Code Section 40-8-21 and shall be of such size and
> characteristics and so mounted as to be visible at night from all
> distances within 300 feet to 50 feet from the rear of such vehicle
> except that visibility from the greater distance is hereinafter required
> of reflectors on certain types of vehicles."
> 
> O.C.G.A.  40-8-26 Turn Signals - "(2) A light or lights or mechanical signal device capable of clearly
> indicating any intention to turn either to the right or to the left and
> which shall be visible from both the front and the rear."
> 
> ----
> 
> If their concern are the rack lights, those are for auxiliary purposes only and would never be used while on a public road (that would be a violation of ordinance). Some Jeep owners I have met mentioned that they are considered "head lamps" unless they are covered. But I am unable to locate any ordinance or code to clarify this. A few officers in GA have commented that as long as they are not turned on while driving then they hold no issue with them.
> 
> I just wanted to make it clear I am not yanking your chain Mr. xxx.  I have put in a lot of time scanning through state and county ordinances as well as a few hours on the phone with the local and state DMV & DoR offices.
> 
> Take this information for what you will and is given with nothing but respect, I just decided I can not be silent on information that is either incorrect or out-dated that was relayed to yourself.
> 
> As always, stay safe out there.
> 
> - Damien
> 
> Attached you will find a picture of not only the front and rear light measurements, but also a photo taken at night with no brakes and brakes applied, as well as the DOT stamped head lights turned on at night.


----------



## Panthers65

Jack1981 said:


> All I've found so far on the roof lights... (still researching)
> 
> Law seems to word it as "in use" on the road.  Nothing about having them covered or not allowed when not in use...



So what is the height of the lights on your roof? Happy to see it coming, just don't want any problems to pop up after. They aren't spotlights, and even if you convince a cop to let you use them as an auxiliary driving light, you can't have more than one. The tickets I saw written were for headlight violations, not foglights or auxiliary lights. Either way, if they are above the 30" for foglights, or above 42" for driving lights, they will be in violation and need to be covered.

Anyways, covers are only a few bucks each, and if your not going to use them on the road anyways, what's it matter? It's a fix-it-ticket anyways, but the only reason I brought them up is due to Mr. Andrew's crappy response about lighting. You asked if we thought you'd get pulled over driving that thing on the road. I still think you will, and the lighting thing is just an unnecessary speedbump. 

As with any custom vehicle, just realize that you will stand out to everyone, LEO's and civilians alike. Some cops will want to talk to you, others will want to powertrip and find anything possible to write you a ticket.

Like Larry the Cable Guy said, "leave that drug dealer alone, there's some guy over here with a licence plate frame and I can't see all of his sticker....


----------



## Davis31052

Been watching this thread from the beginning. Sweet looking buggy and looks better built than alot of home grown stuff I see on the road around here. 

Jack, I hope like the dickens you do get this thing approved for on road use, tag or no tag.  Like someone said earlier, if you do. it'll set a precedence in your county. 

Hopefully others will follow suit and this will spread like wildfire. With $3.50 a gallon gas, this type vehicle would do alot to help folks.  

Fingers crossed for you.


----------



## Jack1981

Thanks.

Yes, main motivation was sporadic gas pricing. My old Buick was consuming 18MPG on average and the choice was by another automobile/truck with the same or slightly better fuel mileage or go for broke on a new idea.

I remember when mopeds were a rare site, now I see them all over the place and sold in mainstream businesses.

Maybe I can be the revolution of the China Buggy in my area. haha!


----------



## Jack1981

Interesting read into LSV classification - I am going to look into it further...

Parts I am interested in are bolded/underlined.



			
				WIKI said:
			
		

> United States
> 
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has published safety guidelines in the United States which apply to vehicles operating in the 20–25 mile-per-hour speed range.[4] Low-speed vehicles are defined as a four-wheeled motor vehicle that has a gross vehicle weight rating of less than 3,000 pounds (1,400 kg) and a top speed of between 20 to 25 mph (32 to 40 km/h).[5]
> 
> Nearly all 50 states allow LSVs, also called NEVs, to drive on their roads where the speed limit is 35 mph or less.[6] Either they follow FMVSS500 (25 mph top speed on 35 mph limit roads), or make their own more aggressive law. *Because of federal law, car dealers cannot legally sell the vehicles to go faster than 25 mph (40 km/h), but the buyer can easily modify the car to go 35 mph (56 km/h). However, if modified to exceed 25 mph (40 km/h), the vehicle then becomes subject to additional safety requirements.[citation needed]*
> 
> These speed restrictions, combined with a typical driving range of 30 miles (48 km) per charge and a typical three-year battery durability, are required because of a lack of federally mandated safety equipment and features which NEVs can not accommodate because of their design. To satisfy federal safety requirements for manufacturers, NEVs must be equipped with three-point seat belts or a lap belt, *windshield wipers are not required*, running lights, headlights, brake lights, reflectors, rear view mirrors, and turn signals. In many cases, doors may be optional, crash protection from other vehicles is partially met compared to other non motorized transport such as bicycles because of the use of seat belts. In 2011, a Time magazine article concluded that the lack of passenger safety protection made most LSVs unfit for city driving, despite their excellent maneuverability.[6]


----------



## Jack1981

Couldn't find any information on what happens if an LSV is modified to go faster.

Interesting.

So short of a cop clocking them faster than 25mph there is basically no way to catch someone who has modified it for faster travel.

Just another glaring hole in the entire system I suppose.


----------



## merc123

Here's the thing about this.  Unless you have a tag you'll have problems.  

Guy's wife is in an accident.  He arrives on scene asking questions in military uniform.  Officer sees his concealed pistol and asks for permit.  He does not have one.  He gets arrested.  Goes to court and fights the arrest with a law that states military personnel (and many others) are not required to have a concealed carry permit.  

Basically caused him problems even though he was legal because even officers can't possibly know all laws.


----------



## Davis31052

updates??


----------



## Jack1981

Not yet - the vendor I purchased from are providing to be a headache in getting my MSO sent to me, so I am now working directly with BMS motors to get it sent to me. Just spoke to them yesterday so just waiting at the moment...


----------



## hunt n duck

I was wondering is it hard to get insurance coverage. How does the insurance company classify the buggy? Is the coverage expensive? I would love to drive one, and 60+ MPG would be great. I hope it all works out for you. Very few would put the time and effort into all the research that you have.


----------



## Redbow

Living here around the NC coast I have seen a few vehicles on the road that look like yours with tags, legal street dune buggies... NC laws are probably much different than Georgia laws with such vehicles. All I can say is good luck with your project...You can also get a tag for Golf Carts here if you make them street legal...ATV's, well they will get you a ticket here if a Cop see's you riding on the streets and highways..


----------



## Jack1981

I currently have Progressive for full coverage insurance.

After some questions it is classified under an automobile policy.


----------



## shakey gizzard

Got any pics of that thing catchin air?


----------



## Jack1981

No, but I did install a laser beam this weekend.  Bua Ha Ha!


----------



## shakey gizzard

You'll surely get a ticket now!


----------



## Jack1981

Might get a ticket for sleeping at the wheel,  the constant air suction coming from that thing is like white noise and I am gonna doze off. haha


----------



## hunt n duck

Have you ran a tank out yet to check your mpg. Did you find a way to improve the brakes yet.


----------



## Jack1981

Brakes are actually fine, they just needed to be worn in.

I am averaging between 44-48 MPG - I think this is due to the hilly landscape of my roads for the routes most traveled (ie to work).

I am faced with hills either way, so no making an optimal route.

And windy days where you travel against the wind has me seeing more 3rd gear than usual.


----------



## hunt n duck

Thats still good mileage. Wish I was getting half that in my truck.


----------



## Jack1981

Going to have to get my company's legal involved with the MSO.

Vendor has been unable to full fill their duty to supply it going on 90 days since order placed. And further inquiries go unanswered. Multiple e-mails over 90 days more or less stating "it is on the way".

Sadly BMS (the importer) is unable to legally supply me directly with the MSO as they sold the unit to the vendor County Imports. So they claim, but I'm researching that.

So short term I might be corn holed in the butt in having to pay for a surety bond in Georgia and follow the "lost or damaged title" route. Long term I plan to get every single penny back plus legal expenses when I take them (the vendor) to court.

Going to call the DMV today to see if there are any options to issue me a temp tag of some sort due to the circumstances. 

In other news,  I need to sell the wheels and off road tires from this thing if anyone is interested in them.

14" 4x115 wheels and tires are 27" for any of you ATV / UTV guys who need something.

Wheels have less than 1000 miles on them and tires are brand new, zero miles on them.

Edit: Also made some cosmetic and quality of life upgrades to buggy (or soon, parts on order):

1. universal steering wheel column turn signal lever - cause having the turn signals on the dash and in rocker switch form is just weird.

2. shock adjustment spanner wrench - cause I don't need 10" of pre-load for driving on roads.

3. standard automotive 3 point seat belts - cause 4 point looks cool and all, but for daily use and different passengers on occasion, PITA!

4. black side mirrors - cause chrome is ugly to me


----------



## Jack1981

Decided to make a project out of the stock head lamps. Have to do some final detail work to clean them up still, but for most part done on the first one.  

Prep them up the usual way, then used a self etching primer and VHT performance epoxy paint. 

Right side will be the same, but the "eyebrow" will be reversed.  Now my buggy can be all like, "GRRR WUT U LOOKIN AT?!?!?"

Ignore the dull look in the refinished one, its because it doesn't have the reflective bulk housing back in it yet...






Also my new side mirrors will be here Monday:






Oddly enough I think I will be registering my buggy in the end as a Roadster here in GA.  Starting to look like one...

And this should be here Tuesday. Because having the turn signals on the dash is WEIRD.  Universal steering column mount!


----------



## Jack1981

Ok the wiring got me a little scared when I took it off the "rocker switch" stock button.

3 wires stock vs. my universal turn signal has 8(!) wires...

But as luck would have it, the manufacturer simplified the installation in reality, by turning one wire for each signal (LF, RF, LR, FR) into just two wirings prior to the switch connection. So they did half the work.

LEGEND:

UTS = Universal Turn Signal
SW = Stock Wiring

WHAT GOES WHERE:

UTS Yellow -> SW Pink
UTS Green -> SW Brown/Red
UTS Black -> SW Brown






Bundle up the remaining wires, you won't need em!






The hazard function (all signals blinking) even works! I am quite pleased with myself between this project and adding blinking side markers (like cars have) and rear brake signals on the sides of the wings in the back.
















New headlights too!  New mirrors will be in this week. 

Also added some Carbon Fiber overlay to the top of the windshield to help keep glare down.


----------



## hunt n duck

Looks good. Did you decide to change out the factory head lights? I saw one post you were painting the stock ones, but the last pic had some square lights.


----------



## Jack1981

Still working on the factory ones, I will see how they turn out and then decide between the two.


----------



## XIronheadX

Awesome. That upper radiator hose would freak me out over the back of my neck.


----------



## Jack1981

Buggy says GRRRRRR


----------



## Panthers65

XIronheadX said:


> Awesome. That upper radiator hose would freak me out over the back of my neck.



I saw that too.

A sheet of lexan and some rubber tube clamps would fit it up, cheap insurance for around $30...


----------



## Jack1981

Well, I am still getting prepped for a legal battle with the vendor and their inability to supply my MSO / MCO - a document that I am legally required to have.

I made contact again with the local 5-0 and explained the situation.  They told me for now to just buy one of those LSV reflectors and slap it on the back (pic below).  

Comically enough the guy I spoke to said quite a few on the local force have commented seeing me zip around town and basically none of them considered it an issue what so ever, some were tempted to follow me so they could ask where I got it once I stopped. :lol: 

Apparently most eyeballed to see I had proper safety equipment and I wasn't acting like a stunt driver then basically shrugged it off.


----------



## hunt n duck

Any more updates?


----------



## Jack1981

You mean more mods or about the tag?


----------



## hunt n duck

Both


----------



## Jack1981

Well as my last post indicated, I am about to get into a legal cage match with the vendor.  Still don't have my MCO.

So per local PD recommendation after explaining, I put the slow moving vehicle triangle on the back between the gas tank and frame.

Newer mods? Lets see here...

Painted stock wheels black with red trim;






Messing with some design work for my company logo...






New mirrors (ditched the big chrome ones):





No pics, but lowered the radiator about 12 inches and added a review mirror.  I just like driving it better now that the blind spot is gone.


----------



## merc123

Looks good!  Take some pics of the lowered radiator and triangle


----------



## Jack1981

If the rain holds out till after I get home I take some.


----------



## Jack1981

Not the brighest or prettiest pics, but they give you an idea...

Da triangle and lowered radiator....


----------



## merc123

That's cool.  Zip ties fix everything  

I wish you weren't so far away.  I'd like to see this thing in person!


----------



## Jack1981

Those are temporary while I come up with a more suitable solution.

The extended bolts keep it secure just fine, the problem is to lower it I had to remove a support bar and that is what keep it from have any play (movement). 

So the zip ties simply take out the little bit of wiggle room it has.


----------



## merc123

There's a couple different mounting options we use on race cars.  I was trying to think if any of them might work to help brace it without the zip ties or threaded rod.


----------



## Jack1981

Still no MCO, even after locating and messaging the CEO of the parent company on his personal Facebook account directly. He assured me it was on the way a week ago.

I gave legal the green flag to send the first written (signature confirmation delivery) document this morning.

They will be given until March 15th and if they fail to comply we will unleash the dogs on them with no mercy.

We are preparing to contact the Georgia and California Attorney General's Offices as well as the proper Federal authorities as it pertains to Section 1343 of Title 18 of the U.S. Code in regards to Fraud and Interstate Commerce.

We've retained all emails and voicemails to show without a double the great amount of patience we have shown as well as going above and beyond reasonable attempts to request this document.

December to March is unacceptable by any standards.

As far as we are concerned the MCO is part of the sale and without it we are unable to register the vehicle properly, which amounts to defrauding us of nearly $8,000.

Without the MCO, it might as well technically be a very very expensive paper weight.


----------



## BoKat96

So after reading through this whole thread, I can see there has been extensive research on the applicable codes.

My question is: Are you saying your county and DMV is going to register this as a auto once you receive the MCO?

If so this is great news and unfortunately or fortunately however you may look at it will set a new precedent, I for one hope to join in on the band wagon and thank you for all the work it has taken up to this point.


----------



## Jack1981

BoKat96 said:


> So after reading through this whole thread, I can see there has been extensive research on the applicable codes.
> 
> My question is: Are you saying your county and DMV is going to register this as a auto once you receive the MCO?
> 
> If so this is great news and unfortunately or fortunately however you may look at it will set a new precedent, I for one hope to join in on the band wagon and thank you for all the work it has taken up to this point.



 Yes they _should_ register it as an automobile per the law, ordinances, codes, and requirements.

The law would label this an automobile, so what the MSO states is irrelevant.  What a cop thinks it is, is irrelevant.  What four different DMV workers think is irrelevant (thought it helps if you get one that has a brain).

These people are not employed to translate or guess an interpretation of the law.  They are paid to enforce the law on the books, to follow the laws on the books, and everything in between that the law states.

_Cliff Note Facts About This Buggy_:

1. width & weight disqualifies it as any class of ATV

2. has all georgia required and defined safety equipment and said equipment meets all defined regulations (such as min/max height, visibility, DOT approved highway tires, mirrors, or otherwise)

3. capable speed disqualifies it as a low speed vehicle (LSV)

4. insured as required by Georgia law (and to a lesser point is insured AS an automobile)

All this is backed by the documentation on Georgia State Law. So quite frankly a DMV employing telling me it can't be registered will not be an acceptable answer.  No one should accept anything but what is written in the law and I will fully challenge them in front of everyone to provide documentation that says otherwise.

They don't get to make up laws on a whim, they are bound by what the law IS not what they _think_ it is.

I've talked to some DMV workers who said they would register it as an auto and others who have some bizarre infatuation with what its called on the MCO.

Once I register it I will republish a step by step guide and inventory everything one needs to check (measure) for and have (equipment) before going into the DMV.  I will more than likely publish said guide on my website for free for anyone to use.  It will link each step and item to a ordinance or law for Georgia so there is absolutely NO question about the meaning.

I want nothing more than for buggies to become normal like scooters have become.

I am willing to become case law if it goes that far.


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## merc123

If it's any consolation.  I went to the DMV to renew my tags.  I'm losing my free National Guard plate because I got out so I was going to transfer over into a Bronze Star plate instead.  I didn't know it existed until I started Googling for the plates.  There is an entire document on the benefits for GA veterans.  I also found the laws for them as they were stated in the document.  

I get to the tag office and they can't get the computer to accept it.  They call some office and said that it is no longer available.  I go online and found a House Bill that was going to no longer allow the plate to be free (no problem with me) but right now it's not even available which makes no sense either.  They said to bring the documentation in to show them but I don't think it will help much.

Here's the thread with the applicable laws and documents.  http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=742051


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## rjcruiser

In looking at your rad fix...I still think it is an issue that can really be solve by a plexi glass piece that ould keep boiling hot coolant from somehow spraying into the cockpit.  Also, watch your lower hose....looks like it is close to some type of exhaust pipe.  Wouldn't want it to melt.

In all honesty, keep an eye on that upper hose and your temp guage and you'll prolly never have an issue.  Prolly more likely to die in a wreck than have that hose fail.  

Hope things turn out for you.


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## Jack1981

The lower hoses are zip tied away from any hot contact points.  

The big lower hose you see over the exhaust is just a trick of the camera angle, its a good 8-10 inches above the exhaust.


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## Davis31052

*Seriously Cruiser?*

_Prolly more likely to die in a wreck than have that hose fail.  _


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## merc123

Davis31052 said:


> _Prolly more likely to die in a wreck than have that hose fail.  _



He does make a valid point.  If it were my truck vs. the buggy (or any small car) the coolant hoses would be the last thing on their mind because MY radiator would be the first thing on theirs.


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## rjcruiser

Davis31052 said:


> _Prolly more likely to die in a wreck than have that hose fail.  _



I apologize to the OP if it came across the wrong way.  That was not my intent.

My intent was to show that sometimes, we trip over a dime to pick up a penny.

I can see where others view the upper Rad hose to be a potential hazard.  That being said, driving is a potential hazard.  For me, personally, I think the zip ties and the rods pushing the radiator down look horrible and cheapen the overall appearance of the buggy.  I also know that when you start "customizing" things, it can cause unintended consequences.  If safety was of utmost concern, the driver wouldn't even be in this buggy...as I'm sure it would fail a crash test.

That was my point....that was my intent.  Again, if it came across wrong to the OP, my sincerest apologies.

FWIW....I think the buggy thing is a cool idea...and if I had a local commute, I can see doing the same thing.


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## Backlasher82

rjcruiser said:


> For me, personally, I think the zip ties and the rods pushing the radiator down look horrible and cheapen the overall appearance of the buggy.  I also know that when you start "customizing" things, it can cause unintended consequences.



You mean like moving the radiator down out of the air flow? I can see how that could have some unintended consequences when the weather gets warmer.


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## rjcruiser

Backlasher82 said:


> You mean like moving the radiator down out of the air flow? I can see how that could have some unintended consequences when the weather gets warmer.



Yeah...I was kinda thinking that too....but wasn't sure with the fan on it...might be alright.

I just know when you go to modifying things, it can lead to other issues.  Reason I know this...is from personal experience.  Had a '56 Ford F100 about 10-15 years ago in college.  Wanted to drop the front end a bit and have it looking aggressive (low in the front...slightly higher in the rear).  Being on a budget (remember..in college) couldn't bring myself to spend $200 a set on single lowering leafs or reverse eye leaf springs....so, ran air shocks and 160 pounds of cement in the rear to drop it along with taking out a leaf or two and just flipped the long leaf in the front.  Dropped it about 3 inches...just like I wanted.  Only problem was the leafs wanted to scrub on the stearing rod.  So...found a slightly straighter/longer pitman arm and walla...clearance.  Drove it up and down the street...perfect.

Well...one day, driving around town...hit a pretty big bump in the road.  When that suspension flexed more than it had before, it hit the steering rod and forced it to one side. Made my truck change lanes from the #1 lane to the #2 lane.  Fortunately for me, there was no car beside me, or I would've for sure wrecked.  When I got home...first thing I did....swapped it back.

To me, looked like a simple fix.  Tested it out...and sure enough..in my controlled environment...worked great.  But then, something out of the ordinary came up and could've caused me a bad wreck.  

All that to say...just be careful modifying.  Strange things can happen.


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## Davis31052

Hey Jack, Any updates on your rig?


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## Jack1981

Sorry, I forgot about this thread, not that I don't like you guys, I just post in so many places, unless I get a new reply notification I lose track.

This was posted recently on a national buggy forum I belong to:



> DMV is not making this easy - they are basically telling me to my face it doesn't matter what the law is, the MCO is the deciding factor. Short of holding a gun to their head, there is nothing I can do to force their hand.
> 
> The short term solution is contacting BMS to issue another MCO with the body type listed as DUNE BUGGY, right now it is listed as ATV / GO KART.
> 
> The long term solution is in the works, I am gathering information to contact the appropriate channels in local government (outside of the DMV) to produce opinions and official answers outside of the DMV inner-circle.
> 
> I am still prepared to formulate case law for my fellow GA residents. It is not needed now, but I may need to check into donations for legal funding from any other GA residents on here to assist if my wallet can't handle the things to come in getting this <bleep> thrown out and force the DMV into compliance.



In the meantime, per locals instructions I just run with one of those orange triangles on the back and no one has given me any grief. Which is funny because they are basically telling me that a $10.00 aluminum sign is good, but paying them $600+ in local taxes and fees doesn't interest them.

The government flushing money down the toliet? Here is my shocked face: ...

In other news, in the next month or so its getting stripped down for a new paint job (cause factory finish sucks to be honest).

Laeur Custom Weaponry, the manufacturers of DuraCoat (which I use to refinish firearms for many years now) has ponied up a gallon of finish and a few other things to cover the materials.  So awesome sauce on their part, stuff is not cheap consider a single 4oz quantity runs about $16.00 + shipping.

Going with a desert tan and tactical flat black combo.

While its stripped down going to redo the wiring system completely as well as make a few "modifications" in the engine bay area.  

Autometer may or may not be jumping on board and replace all our analog gauges with digital ones, still waiting to hear back from them.


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## Jack1981

I'm still out here, transformation will be done soon. 







Also moving up to some 17" x 7.5 wheels with aggressive street performance tires.

Turning it into a real roadster.  Also starting to piece together a turbo kit.


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## Jack1981

Boom, headshot.

Details to come...


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## Jack1981

Ok guys - take 90% of everything before the above post and wipe the slate clean.  Now there are some variables here (how your insurance company operates is one), but here is how it was done:

Ok so here is the deal. A forwarnings; while completely legit, this is not how I preferred it played out - but if the powers that be insist it is something then fine, it is that thing.

What you will need:

- Bill of Sale (more on this later)

- Completed T-22B

- Proof of Insurance

- Valid Drivers License

That is it.  No MV-1 application, no inspection, no MSO/MCO/TITLE total fees: $20.00

Now before we go further, a quote:



> ANTIQUE / HOBBY VEHICLE:
> 
> This tag may be issued to a motor vehicle (private passenger car, truck weighing less than 14,000 lbs., or motorcycle) that is more than twenty-five (25) years old or to a vehicle that has been designed and manufactured to resemble an antique or historical vehicle.
> 
> This tag may be transferred to another antique, hobby or special interest vehicle.



The red part is the important part.

The law wants to insist this is a dune buggy. Or a sand rail. Use whatever terminology you'd like.  Fine, lets pick a year -  I am now rebuilding this to look like any typical VW hobby car in 1975.  Here is an important part.  No model designation is required for this registration.

This revelation came about and a SUPERVISOR at the DMV walked the tag agent through this.

Now, before people freak about supposed implications here (and I know someone from the tinfoil hat society will) -  the signed T22-B still references the VIN # from BMS and the year of the BMS as well as the model being BMS.  They then had me hand write my own Bill of Sale that stated,

"I, _________  am manufacturering / replicating the vehicle in question as of June 13th 2013 and I am the sole owner of said vehicle."

(It then list BMS / VW and the Vin # with my signature).

Now the insurance.  I had to change how the insurance listed the vehicle and have them mail fax over a "30 day binder" or whatever they call it.  I called my insurance company, Proggressive and advised them of how I am having to register the vehicle.  Since it is listed a custom vehicle with a custom value under my auto policy a couple clicks later and they rep had it listed as a 1975 VW.  Let me make this clear, the same VIN # from BMS was used and I made it CLEAR that this is for the purposes of a "hobby" vehicle.  They said it didn't matter due to the custom setup of the plan.  They could call it the "Ronald McDonald Model  Fartmeister 9000" and they could spell that out and the insurance is 100% legit.

There you have it.  Once again, this was per the instructions of the supervisor at the DMV to the tag agent knowing clearly that the VIN being given is not an original VW VIN.

The downside (if you call it one with these types of vehicles) - I can't create a title this method - it just gets you registration and plates.  Sure that might make it a PITA down the road to sell it, but I don't see that happening.  I'd just assume run it into the ground if I ever replace it as a daily driver.


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## Dustin Pate

Man that is awesome sticking it out like that!!! Major props!!!

How are you liking it now that you've had it awhile?


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## Jack1981

Greatest vehicle ever owned.

Great gas mileage, easy maintenance, and I get all the prestige a sports car gets by rubber neckers. lol


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## Buzz Kill

*Thanks*

Jack, 
I wanted to congratulate you on your success. We need more people like you around before we lose all of our freedoms. I went to my tag office today and confirmed eligibility for the hobby tag on the Sand Sniper 1000. I could not be more excited and thanks to you I will be able to drive it everywhere!

Sincerely, 
Buzz K
killerbeecnc.com


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## Jack1981

I helped another guy here in Augusta register his after he ran into some problems.

The more the better.

I'm going to be hitting 10,000 miles on the odometer before long.


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## merc123

Just thinking about this today!


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## Jack1981

Just an update.  Odometer is over 10,000 miles now.

The Good:

-  gas mileage still good
- operationally sound

The Bad

- had to replace fuel pump (Chinese)

- had to replace oil pressure switch (Chinese)

- cold in the winter (lol)

- rear brake pads need to be replaced soon (I'm not surprised, this thing was probably made with the idea of a few hundred, if maybe a thousand miles a year off road.  So the pads aren't that thick. I bought a bunch of spare pads recently, so no big deal)

- getting a bit of whining from the timing belt, off and on.  Looks to be in good condition, will inspect in further detail in this weekends to come.


Other than that, still going.

Vroom Vroom


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## merc123

Any incidents with LEOs?


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## Jack1981

All the time, but its mostly *them* wanting to take pictures with it when I run into them in parking lots.

Nothing negative.  Don't see how they could do anything anyhow.  It has a plate, it has insurance, and I drive it just like a car. So...

I've had a couple of cops get sneaky.  Like they will be in front of me, then turn off somewhere only to pop up a second later and get behind me.  I'm assuming once they see the plate they snap their fingers, "darn", and then go about their business. lol


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## rayjay

I would not ignore the whining timing belt. Might be the idler/tensioner pulley going bad. Should be easy to diagnose. It would probably be wise to keep a spare of each on hand.


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## Jack1981

A couple of days after I posted that it stopped completely.

Maybe some dirt or something got in there and finally worked its way out.  I dunno, but its perfectly quiet now.


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## Jack1981

So... I've been smitten by another project. Something bigger and more powerful.  With that said, I am putting this buggy up for sale for $6500.  

Time to move on to other projects.


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## biggsteve

very interesting thread.

i'm building a vw trike, and i've heard that in georgia, you must go thru all sorts of hoops to get it registered.

hopefully, i can use your info to make my part painless.

thanx again..../biggsteve


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