# Dr. Chamberlain on GA Season Dates



## Gut_Pile (Jun 14, 2022)

Since it seems to be such a hot topic, here is Chamberlain's explanation of GA's season dates, and how he was involved (or not) in setting them.


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## Gut_Pile (Jun 14, 2022)

@buckpasser I figured you would want to see this the most


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## MesquiteHeat (Jun 14, 2022)

I know it gave birds a lot more time to be relatively undisturbed where in the same time in years past they were already being busted and bumped  regularly. And in their short breeding period two weeks has to make a big difference.


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## buckpasser (Jun 14, 2022)

Are you supposed to vomit a little around the 12:10 mark or so?  Just checking, cause I did.  I feel like that’s a normal reaction.


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## buckpasser (Jun 14, 2022)

Someone tell me what I missed after about 15 min.  It’s real neat what he’s saying, there’s just not enough rubber meeting his theoretical road to back it up. What I see is a bright and opportunistic man that’s methodically injected himself into every podcast, article, publication, etc to be the authority on all things turkey. He’s been very successful.  Will we see any positive from his installation, or just silly theories and season date changes that amount to basically nothing outside of maybe some added hunter opportunity and some lost hunter opportunity?  I have my doubts. 

Let me just add this point also:  every time I hear that guy I hear the word “landscape” roughly seventeen to two hundred fifty times.  Can we pick another word to describe the turkey habitat at large?  Thanks.


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## earlthegoat2 (Jun 14, 2022)

Many people who have made a name for themself (justified or not) and many people who are trying to make a name for themself will often times make changes, any changes, for apparent arcane reasons just as a smoke and mirror show to hide the fact they are doing nothing. 

Politicians do it all the time. So do folks who need to use politics to further their own agendas. Maybe the furthering of some goal is the agenda or maybe it is keeping the image of being the authority on furthering that goal. 

Or maybe they don’t give a crap about the goal at all and just want to get re-elected.


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## Gaswamp (Jun 15, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Someone tell me what I missed after about 15 min.  It’s real neat what he’s saying, there’s just not enough rubber meeting his theoretical road to back it up. What I see is a bright and opportunistic man that’s methodically injected himself into every podcast, article, publication, etc to be the authority on all things turkey. He’s been very successful.  Will we see any positive from his installation, or just silly theories and season date changes that amount to basically nothing outside of maybe some added hunter opportunity and some lost hunter opportunity?  I have my doubts.
> 
> Let me just add this point also:  every time I hear that guy I hear the word “landscape” roughly seventeen to two hundred fifty times.  Can we pick another word to describe the turkey habitat at large?  Thanks.


aroung the 50 minute talking about hardwood management


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## Turkeytider (Jun 16, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Someone tell me what I missed after about 15 min.  It’s real neat what he’s saying, there’s just not enough rubber meeting his theoretical road to back it up. What I see is a bright and opportunistic man that’s methodically injected himself into every podcast, article, publication, etc to be the authority on all things turkey. He’s been very successful.  Will we see any positive from his installation, or just silly theories and season date changes that amount to basically nothing outside of maybe some added hunter opportunity and some lost hunter opportunity?  I have my doubts.
> 
> Let me just add this point also:  every time I hear that guy I hear the word “landscape” roughly seventeen to two hundred fifty times.  Can we pick another word to describe the turkey habitat at large?  Thanks.


Buckpasser, since you give little, if any credence to Dr. Chamberlain`s positions/ hypotheses concerning wild turkey population biology ( certainly by all means your prerogative ), could you please enlighten us as to those wildlife population biologists specializing in the wild turkey with which you DO agree OR, is your strident disagreement with all things Dr. Chamberlain based solely upon your own professional observations and opinions based upon your own data? I know this sounds argumentative, and I apologize if it does, but I truly don`t intend for it to be perceived as such. Someone with such definitive opposition MUST be basing that opposition on something more substantial than any sort of layman`s observations. Thanks.


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 16, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> Since it seems to be such a hot topic, here is Chamberlain's explanation of GA's season dates, and how he was involved (or not) in setting them.



One side of his mouth said he didn't have anything to do with it, but 5 or 10 minutes later seemed like the other side said the opposite


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## buckpasser (Jun 16, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> Buckpasser, since you give little, if any credence to Dr. Chamberlain`s positions/ hypotheses concerning wild turkey population biology ( certainly by all means your prerogative ), could you please enlighten us as to those wildlife population biologists specializing in the wild turkey with which you DO agree OR, is your strident disagreement with all things Dr. Chamberlain based solely upon your own professional observations and opinions based upon your own data? I know this sounds argumentative, and I apologize if it does, but I truly don`t intend for it to be perceived as such. Someone with such definitive opposition MUST be basing that opposition on something more substantial than any sort of layman`s observations. Thanks.



Let me clarify it all for you (as if I haven’t spoken to this enough, haha). I don’t disagree with EVERYTHING turkey doc says. I agree with 100% of his hard earned data and 100% of all fairly obtained biological turkey data. Where I almost completely shun him is in his THEORIES and some of his hypotheses. Some of them are fairly ridiculous in my opinion. My purpose for being so outspoken is because at one time there were only about three of us who stood up against the silliness and failed attempts to prove the crazy concepts. I decided to speak louder because my camp was so relatively small and it was clear to me turkey doc wasn’t the savior of the wild turkey.  I could probably afford to pipe down a bit now as the tide has since turned and people have put on their thinking caps. They’ve decided to stop blindly following “the science” when “the science” sounds increasingly like the scientist!

All that said, I might put too much stock in what I see daily as a wildlife manager. I’d prefer to error on that side than to blindly follow the inclinations of another man, but that’s just me.


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## Gut_Pile (Jun 16, 2022)

@buckpasser I think you obviously have a great knowledge about your area. And I will admit I am biased towards the turkey doc bc I have been able to spend time with him and have seen his passion towards trying to help the wild turkey. Part of me also believes your opinion is a little blinded bc of the part of the state you live in. You are in a region of the state where a lot of people still manage their woods. There are many areas of the state where this is not happening, so something else has to be done. If I was in your shoes, hunting and working on a well managed property, so far south, I too would not love the later start. But, at this moment, the state of GA has one season for all areas, and the plan and seasons the state has put in place encompasses every county, north to south, east to west. As a state, our turkeys are hurting. Our population decrease is in the top 5 in the nation (#4). So what does it hurt to try something new? What does it hurt to trust some hypothesis from some very bright people with more data than either of us will ever gather in our lifetime? My opinion, different from yours, is lets see what happens. I would prefer 3 weeks of awesome hunting, then 6 weeks of sub par, but I realize not everyone thinks that way. I say none of this or anything ive said in the past to say you’re wrong, but just to think about what these regulations are trying to do. They have been put in place to help the turkeys in GEORGIA, not just the greater Valdosta area.


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## strothershwacker (Jun 17, 2022)

All I know is the northwest corner of the state ain't got near the birds it had just 5-6 years ago. Only variable I've seen change is the explosion of new hunter numbers. If you don't agree, then stick yer head back in the sand.


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## menhadenman (Jun 17, 2022)

Guys that call themselves doctor but don’t have an MD crack me up.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 17, 2022)

menhadenman said:


> Guys that call themselves doctor but don’t have an MD crack me up.


He prefers " Mike". Other people afford him the courtesy of recognizing his academic background and achievements by calling him " Dr. Chamberlain ".


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## Turkeytider (Jun 17, 2022)

Gut_Pile said:


> @buckpasser I think you obviously have a great knowledge about your area. And I will admit I am biased towards the turkey doc bc I have been able to spend time with him and have seen his passion towards trying to help the wild turkey. Part of me also believes your opinion is a little blinded bc of the part of the state you live in. You are in a region of the state where a lot of people still manage their woods. There are many areas of the state where this is not happening, so something else has to be done. If I was in your shoes, hunting and working on a well managed property, so far south, I too would not love the later start. But, at this moment, the state of GA has one season for all areas, and the plan and seasons the state has put in place encompasses every county, north to south, east to west. As a state, our turkeys are hurting. Our population decrease is in the top 5 in the nation (#4). So what does it hurt to try something new? What does it hurt to trust some hypothesis from some very bright people with more data than either of us will ever gather in our lifetime? My opinion, different from yours, is lets see what happens. I would prefer 3 weeks of awesome hunting, then 6 weeks of sub par, but I realize not everyone thinks that way. I say none of this or anything ive said in the past to say you’re wrong, but just to think about what these regulations are trying to do. They have been put in place to help the turkeys in GEORGIA, not just the greater Valdosta area.


“ So what does it hurt to try something new?” Well, I think this falls under the same thing that so many other things do. “ You can try anything you like…..just so long as it doesn’t inconvenience me. “.


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## buckpasser (Jun 17, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> “ So what does it hurt to try something new?” Well, I think this falls under the same thing that so many other things do. “ You can try anything you like…..just so long as it doesn’t inconvenience me. “.



The effect of the changes we got would equate to:  “No more swimming in the ocean!  Sea level is rising and we suspect many swimmers are peeing in it!  We can’t stop rivers, rain or ice melting, so we have to change what we can effect.  We’ve just got to do SOMETHING.”


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## Ben1100Mag (Jun 20, 2022)

The State of Georgia whole Hardly bought into this. I can agree with the reduced bag limit and one bird per day. That effects all of us Honest hunters. I can not however live with cutting 3 weeks off the season on Public Land.


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## buckpasser (Jun 20, 2022)

Ben1100Mag said:


> The State of Georgia whole Hardly bought into this. I can agree with the reduced bag limit and one bird per day. That effects all of us Honest hunters. I can not however live with cutting 3 weeks off the season on Public Land.



I agree. The daily bag was/is a good move.  Couple it with very harsh penalties and it probably equates to more hunter opportunity.


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## longrangedog (Jun 20, 2022)

If someone offers an opinion on a subject in which that person has earned a PhD from an accredited program, I tend to listen.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 21, 2022)

longrangedog said:


> If someone offers an opinion on a subject in which that person has earned a PhD from an accredited program, I tend to listen.


Well, particularly if a large portion of that person’s professional ( and in Chamberlain’s case ) personal life has been devoted to the subject at hand.


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## buckpasser (Jun 21, 2022)

Nothing wrong with choosing to believe in the guy. Just nothing wrong with not being a fan or follower either.


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## Ben1100Mag (Jun 23, 2022)

Even if he is a Doctor it is always a good idea to get a second option.  It may prove wise to wait until the research is completed before making major changes to the regulations that restrict opportunities for hunters.


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## Gut_Pile (Jun 23, 2022)

Ben1100Mag said:


> Even if he is a Doctor it is always a good idea to get a second option.  It may prove wise to wait until the research is completed before making major changes to the regulations that restrict opportunities for hunters.



He is not the only one finding this info. There are biologist all over the country, past and present, that are coming up with the same results. 

PM me your email if you would like to see data from the 80's that says the same thing that many biologist are saying today.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 24, 2022)

Ben1100Mag said:


> Even if he is a Doctor it is always a good idea to get a second option.  It may prove wise to wait until the research is completed before making major changes to the regulations that restrict opportunities for hunters.


Most scientists don`t work in a complete vacuum. While Chamberlain might be recognized as a leading wildlife population biologist in general, and the eastern wild turkey in particular, there are other professional biologists from other universities engaged in similar work. Studies currently underway at Auburn immediately come to mind.


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## mallardsx2 (Jun 24, 2022)

I wont do much judging until I see the poult recruitment numbers from this spring 2022 after the effects of moving the season back. (Very interested to see the results of these)

If the poult recruitment numbers are up 50% I suggest that we move private land to match the opener of the public lands...

That should (by the studies) help increase the population statewide.


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 24, 2022)

mallardsx2 said:


> I wont do much judging until I see the poult recruitment numbers from this spring 2022 after the effects of moving the season back. (Very interested to see the results of these)
> 
> If the poult recruitment numbers are up 50% I suggest that we move private land to match the opener of the public lands...
> 
> That should (by the studies) help increase the population statewide.



What if poult recruitment numbers go down instead of getting better?  You then would support starting the season March 1?

Nothing in wildlife management should be done based on a single season result as there are just too many other variables that could have caused or added to those results.  

That is why they did the several season study on starting the season later on WMA's in GA (cedar creek wma for one) and even then they ignored the results because the turkey population and poult recruitment didn't get any better and that was not the result they wanted.  I believe the study was only to justify the predetermined action that they were going to take anyway.

I could support this if their studies had shown that it made a positive difference...but they didn't.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 24, 2022)

mallardsx2 said:


> I wont do much judging until I see the poult recruitment numbers from this spring 2022 after the effects of moving the season back. (Very interested to see the results of these)
> 
> If the poult recruitment numbers are up 50% I suggest that we move private land to match the opener of the public lands...
> 
> That should (by the studies) help increase the population statewide.


Just curious. How did you arrive at your 50% number? Does that correspond to expectations on the part of the DNR biologists? I haven`t seen that in print myself.


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## Squeaky (Jun 24, 2022)

Gut Pile and Turkeytider please explain how moving the season opener out is going to increase poult production? One state comes to mind that has approximately 10 years of history with this practice (late opener) and their turkey population is no better off today than it was 10 years ago. How do guys think GA or my home state of AL is going to benefit from a similar/same practice that is a proven failure?

In my opinion the decline problem is complex and pushing season openers out isn’t gonna fix it. If you truly are interested in helping the turkey population Casey Shoopman brings some eye opening information the table with a little project he conducted on a small IL farm.


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## mallardsx2 (Jun 24, 2022)

I have nothing to base my 50% off of other than my own personal thoughts. 

According to what I have read from 1978 through the late 90s, Georgia’s production generally stayed between 3 – 4.5 poults per hen. 

What was it last year 1.5?  

So a even a 50% increase based on one year of study during a good weather spring (That in my opinion we had) should result in some significant facts showing that moving the season may have made a difference. It could be argued that weather was the reason for the increase as well. Between weather and the shoving of the season, poult recruitment should be near 100% increased. Depending on predation and a million other factors as well I suppose. 

Like I said, it will be interesting to see the results. 

I think the one thing that jumped out at me the most was when he said "People want to hunt turkeys when they want to hunt them, not when they should actually be hunted..." How true. 

Just like hunting deer with rifles during the rut, Georgians want to hunt turkeys when they are at their most vulnerable time of the year. Cant blame them for that either. But sometimes in life we all have to take one for the team....even when we don't feel like we should.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 24, 2022)

Squeaky said:


> Gut Pile and Turkeytider please explain how moving the season opener out is going to increase poult production? One state comes to mind that has approximately 10 years of history with this practice (late opener) and their turkey population is no better off today than it was 10 years ago. How do guys think GA or my home state of AL is going to benefit from a similar/same practice that is a proven failure?
> they would
> In my opinion the decline problem is complex and pushing season openers out isn’t gonna fix it. If you truly are interested in helping the turkey population Casey Shoopman brings some eye opening information the table with a little project he conducted on a small IL farm.



Delaying the season opening affords the dominant gobblers an opportunity to breed more hens  (more and genetically better poults) before we kill them. Having said that, I`m pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find any of the research teams studying turkey populations that would disagree with you in your  assertion that the population problem is a multi-faceted and complex one. Because of this, I`d also bet that they are under no illusions that moving season start dates ALONE will restore populations. State wildlife agencies can only do so much, only so much is under their control. Having worked for the State of Georgia, I know first hand that a State department is only one inch away from POLITICS in everything it does. One turkey related example might be the legalized practice of baiting deer. Corn grows mold. In grad school, I saw what the toxins ( aflatoxin and rubratoxin ) produced by moldy corn do to the livers of lab animals, including birds. It turns them to mush. So, suppose research shows that indeed turkeys are dying from toxicity in moldy corn. Can you imagine the political firestorm that would be generated by an attempt to outlaw deer baiting?  

I`m just personally glad that we`ve got some dedicated scientists at places like UGA and Auburn that are at least trying to do something about the problem.


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 24, 2022)

Yep, but we KNOW that toxins in corn piles will kill turkeys.  And we KNOW that there are thousands of moldy corn piles in the GA woods.   
We (you) are only speculating that moving the season opener back might help.  Why not do what we KNOW rather than what we don't?  
I would totally support stopping all baiting before I support the season change.  Why shouldn't I?


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## kayaksteve (Jun 24, 2022)

I’m not trying to stir the pot when I say this but, I think the number of people all fired up and upset about the turkey regulations would be 10 fold if they tried to outlaw baiting for deer now. I wouldn’t mind seeing it happen and I think most game populations would benefit from it but, it’d be hard to put that genie back in the bottle now. Im not even sure they would be able to enforce it even if they wanted which I suspect was part of the reason it was legalized to begin with. I support anything that may help and definitely isn’t going to be a negative impact on the population until they figure out a better and feasible idea.


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 24, 2022)

Some things are hard...so most take the easy route even though the hard route would be the right thing to do.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 24, 2022)

cowhornedspike said:


> Yep, but we KNOW that toxins in corn piles will kill turkeys.  And we KNOW that there are thousands of moldy corn piles in the GA woods.
> We (you) are only speculating that moving the season opener back might help.  Why not do what we KNOW rather than what we don't?
> I would totally support stopping all baiting before I support the season change.  Why shouldn't I?


The political fallout would be historic, IMO. Deer hunting ( although I`m not real sure killing something over a bait pile is "hunting" ) is king in the South. No politician is going to take that on.


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 24, 2022)

Can't say I really care too much about what the political ramifications would be.  Just another example of why Game management and politics shouldn't mix.


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## buckpasser (Jun 24, 2022)

@mallardsx2 

The poult recruitment numbers might go way up this year. Sadly, that means absolutely nothing as it relates to the season date changes as there is no control to that experiment. As CHS stated earlier, they DID do an experiment that had the remainder of the state as a control and…It failed. 

By the way, poult recruitment and population WILL go up. It won’t matter what any turkey doc or state wildlife agency does or doesn’t do (within reason and within our old tried and true season dates).  Mark my words on that, the population is coming back.


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## buckpasser (Jun 24, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> Delaying the season opening affords the dominant gobblers an opportunity to breed more hens  (more and genetically better poults) before we kill them. Having said that, I`m pretty sure you would be hard pressed to find any of the research teams studying turkey populations that would disagree with you in your  assertion that the population problem is a multi-faceted and complex one. Because of this, I`d also bet that they are under no illusions that moving season start dates ALONE will restore populations. State wildlife agencies can only do so much, only so much is under their control. Having worked for the State of Georgia, I know first hand that a State department is only one inch away from POLITICS in everything it does. One turkey related example might be the legalized practice of baiting deer. Corn grows mold. In grad school, I saw what the toxins ( aflatoxin and rubratoxin ) produced by moldy corn do to the livers of lab animals, including birds. It turns them to mush. So, suppose research shows that indeed turkeys are dying from toxicity in moldy corn. Can you imagine the political firestorm that would be generated by an attempt to outlaw deer baiting?
> 
> I`m just personally glad that we`ve got some dedicated scientists at places like UGA and Auburn that are at least trying to do something about the problem.



I’m not glad of them or their efforts yet. Maybe someday they’ll do something, prove something or find something out that’s of value to wild turkeys. They haven’t yet at this point, for this time in turkey biology.  

I’ll summarize for you what they’ve done for us since “the decline”:

Talked up their being a major problem in turkey populations 
Talked up the fact that they believe season dates are wrong
Talked about the deep magic involving hen mate selection
*finally realized they should probably figure out a way to quantify turkeys so that they can actually do studies that are of value to turkey populations!


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## Turkeytider (Jun 25, 2022)

cowhornedspike said:


> Can't say I really care too much about what the political ramifications would be.  Just another example of why Game management and politics shouldn't mix.


Could not agree more. Unfortunately it`s the politicians who control the purse strings and they ALWAYS care about the political ramifications.


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## spencer12 (Jun 25, 2022)

Since I don’t know the answer but am curious, does anyone know if any states are experiencing an increase in turkey numbers? If so which ones? Doesn’t matter what region in the US.


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## ol bob (Jun 25, 2022)

90% of the turkeys die from the time the egg is laid, until until they are 2 weeks old. Bag limits, are season opening will never change this.Weather is a factor, and noone can control that, but everyone can do something about predators.


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## across the river (Jun 25, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I’m not glad of them or their efforts yet. Maybe someday they’ll do something, prove something or find something out that’s of value to wild turkeys. They haven’t yet at this point, for this time in turkey biology.
> 
> I’ll summarize for you what they’ve done for us since “the decline”:
> 
> ...



The turkey “boom”, like the quail “boom” had nothing to do with the value of the quail or turkey.   They were both big beneficiaries of the mix habitat across the state that resulted from practices that had absolutely nothing to do with quail or turkey management.  The habitat has changed and the populations have changed as well.  People want the DNR to fix something they can’t fix.  Outlaw turkey hunting altogether, and it won’t matter.  Quail didn’t disappear because the limit was too high or the season was too long.    Google eastern song bird decline, and you will see that song birds population have declined as well.  No one other than kids with BB guns and cats are hunting those.  What is the DNR going to do for those, nothing.  It is a habitat issue.   The DNR, NWTF, Quail Unlimited, or any other organization is highly limited on what they can do for the overall population because the bird is so limited in range the”habitat work” only benefits the immediate area.   It isn’t like ducks or geese where people in Southern states are more willing to give money or buy stamps to conserve land up north, because they can see the benefit.  If you can conserve enough breeding habitat for waterfowl in areas up North, the birds can find it and it can impact numbers seen in other states. Does not work like that for turkeys. They can turn a WMA into the greatest turkey habitat in the world, and it does nothing for even the individuals in the same general area of the state that still have poor turkey habitat.  People are asking them to fix something they can’t fix. Not sure what you guys are expecting.


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## antharper (Jun 25, 2022)

ol bob said:


> 90% of the turkeys die from the time the egg is laid, until until they are 2 weeks old. Bag limits, are season opening will never change this.Weather is a factor, and noone can control that, but everyone can do something about predators.


The problem is that most don’t . If half of the turkey hunters would take up trapping it would help more than anything I’d be willing to bet . 
And I put out as much corn as anyone and have as many turkeys as anyone in the state . It’s either in a spin feeder or scattered , never in a pile . The areas I hunt corn will not stay on the ground long enough to mold . But if it’s proven to be harmful I’d be all for it being illegal . The problem I have with the baiting is it was legal in south ga for several years before north ga . Did south ga see a population decrease sooner ? NO . Also feeding has been legal for years, u just couldn’t hunt over it . For now I’m gonna trust and thank the biologist and people that are trying to help .


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## antharper (Jun 25, 2022)

across the river said:


> The turkey “boom”, like the quail “boom” had nothing to do with the value of the quail or turkey.   They were both big beneficiaries of the mix habitat across the state that resulted from practices that had absolutely nothing to do with quail or turkey management.  The habitat has changed and the populations have changed as well.  People want the DNR to fix something they can’t fix.  Outlaw turkey hunting altogether, and it won’t matter.  Quail didn’t disappear because the limit was too high or the season was too long.    Google eastern song bird decline, and you will see that song birds population have declined as well.  No one other than kids with BB guns and cats are hunting those.  What is the DNR going to do for those, nothing.  It is a habitat issue.   The DNR, NWTF, Quail Unlimited, or any other organization is highly limited on what they can do for the overall population because the bird is so limited in range the”habitat work” only benefits the immediate area.   It isn’t like ducks or geese where people in Southern states are more willing to give money or buy stamps to conserve land up north, because they can see the benefit.  If you can conserve enough breeding habitat for waterfowl in areas up North, the birds can find it and it can impact numbers seen in other states. Does work like that for turkeys. They can turn a WMA into the greatest turkey habitat in the world, and it does nothing for even the individuals in the same general area of the state that still have poor turkey habitat.  People are asking them to fix something they can’t fix. Not sure what you guys are expecting.


Habitat for sure is a big problem . But we have thousands and thousands of acres of land that have been pretty much unchanged and it doesn’t have the turkeys it once did either


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## across the river (Jun 25, 2022)

antharper said:


> Habitat for sure is a big problem . But we have thousands and thousands of acres of land that have been pretty much unchanged and it doesn’t have the turkeys it once did either



People keep saying that ,but that just isn’t the case.  There is no where in this state that is the same as it was 20, 30, or 50 years ago.  If you don’t believe it find a satellite image of an area from the 80s and compare it to one from today.  This is especially true above the fall line.  I had this conversation with a guy not long ago about an area we hunted in the 90s that now has very few.  He said the same thing, but then you start pointing out that that whole area has essentially no broomsedge fields, no wild plumes, no blackberrys, and fence rows are essentially no existent.  Heck, I couldn’t tell you the last time I saw a maypop. That wasn’t the case in the 90s.   It’s like you child.  When the changes gradually happen, you don’t notice them, even though the change over a few years is very dramatic.


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## sea trout (Jun 25, 2022)

spencer12 said:


> Since I don’t know the answer but am curious, does anyone know if any states are experiencing an increase in turkey numbers? If so which ones? Doesn’t matter what region in the US.


Maine comes to mind. Growing flocks are spreading higher north. They have a hard time in Northern Maine because the deep snow, their feet and legs sink and predators eat them easy, but their spreading up that way anyhow.


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## sea trout (Jun 25, 2022)

If old corn from "baiting" deer is harmful for the turkeys then what about states like Texas for example, they've been feeding, "baiting" deer maybe longer than I know. Why did they not have a decline in turkey in the decades before Ga started "baiting" deer?
I don't have a clue!!1 That's why I'm asking. I'm not a know it all, matter a fact I admit I know next ta nuthin. So I am curious and would like to learn more of these contradictions.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 25, 2022)

sea trout said:


> If old corn from "baiting" deer is harmful for the turkeys then what about states like Texas for example, they've been feeding, "baiting" deer maybe longer than I know. Why did they not have a decline in turkey in the decades before Ga started "baiting" deer?
> I don't have a clue!!1 That's why I'm asking. I'm not a know it all, matter a fact I admit I know next ta nuthin. So I am curious and would like to learn more of these contradictions.




Plus, if coyotes do so much damage to turkeys, how come Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and several other western states have excellent turkeys populations?


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## sea trout (Jun 25, 2022)

If killing the dominant breeding Tom is the reason the turkey flocks are in decline.. then why in HUGE areas of land where NO turkey hunting is allowed are those flocks declining or got wiped out. There's subdivisions south west sides of Lake Hartwell where flocks used to be in the road. We had to honk horns, get out the truck and chase em away in order to get to someones house. For a couple DECADES! No hunting allowed. Suddenly those flocks are GONE! And they got small and then were non existant fast! Maybe there were tresspassers or illegal huntin. And I'm sure yes neighboring lands may have turkey hunted. But could that be enough dominant gobblers being poached for the flocks to dissapear?
Once again I don't know! I'm curious to learn is why I ask. I'd like to know. It's just not explained in these post or in the podcasts. It is another contradiction.


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## sea trout (Jun 25, 2022)

I only hunted Texas turkey for the first time in spring of 2021. It was central Texas Rio's.
I don't know what those flocks were like in the decades past. But last spring I heard Rio's in every direction and saw strong flocks of birds all the places we hunted.
And I saw coyotes in the mornings coming to turkey calls too. So yes. Folks living there talked to me about coyotes everywhere there!


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 25, 2022)

sea trout said:


> If old corn from "baiting" deer is harmful for the turkeys then what about states like Texas for example, they've been feeding, "baiting" deer maybe longer than I know. Why did they not have a decline in turkey in the decades before Ga started "baiting" deer?
> I don't have a clue!!1 That's why I'm asking. I'm not a know it all, matter a fact I admit I know next ta nuthin. So I am curious and would like to learn more of these contradictions.



If most of Texas is similar to the places I have hunted out there, the corn is not in piles but is in spin feeders and those are spread out pretty thin for deer hunting...couple per thousand acres.  And the area is typically dry compared to GA and the corn that gets on the ground isn't as susceptible to molding as it would be here. That is just my observations.



Nicodemus said:


> Plus, if coyotes do so much damage to turkeys, how come Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and several other western states have excellent turkeys populations?



The west is very wide open and would be much harder for yotes to ambush a turkey.  Also most of those western birds hang out in larger flocks than here and more eyes are standing guard for danger.
Again, Just my observation.


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 25, 2022)

sea trout said:


> If killing the dominant breeding Tom is the reason the turkey flocks are in decline.. then why in HUGE areas of land where NO turkey hunting is allowed are those flocks declining or got wiped out. There's subdivisions south west sides of Lake Hartwell where flocks used to be in the road. We had to honk horns, get out the truck and chase em away in order to get to someones house. For a couple DECADES! No hunting allowed. Suddenly those flocks are GONE! And they got small and then were non existant fast! Maybe there were tresspassers or illegal huntin. And I'm sure yes neighboring lands may have turkey hunted. But could that be enough dominant gobblers being poached for the flocks to dissapear?
> Once again I don't know! I'm curious to learn is why I ask. I'd like to know. It's just not explained in these post or in the podcasts. It is another contradiction.



But but but delaying the season is going to fix it...
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 25, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Plus, if coyotes do so much damage to turkeys, how come Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and several other western states have excellent turkeys populations?


Texas has open areas and a lot of heavy cover, cactus, mesquite, etc from my couple years hunting @ San Antonio, can't speak for the rest of the state.  Plus a lot of contolled burns and fields, late 90s/2000

I have heard that there's been a decline in a lot of western states last few years as well


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## Turkeytider (Jun 25, 2022)

cowhornedspike said:


> But but but delaying the season is going to fix it...
> Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...


 Maybe I just haven`t been at the right place at the right time, but I haven`t heard anyone say that delaying the season would " fix " it. Hopefully help over time, yes.


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 25, 2022)

antharper said:


> The problem is that most don’t . If half of the turkey hunters would take up trapping it would help more than anything I’d be willing to bet .



Pick up some dog proofs and run them, you would be surprised.

Get a few traps, set em, but I really like the snares for coyotes here since they are legal in WV


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 25, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> Maybe I just haven`t been at the right place at the right time, but I haven`t heard anyone say that delaying the season would " fix " it. Hopefully help over time, yes.



We will never know.  Season will start later from now on whether it makes a difference or not.  Lost to not return even if doesn't help.
If poult recruitment does improve they will say "see it helped" and if it doesn't they will say "it would have been worse if we didn't start later so thank goodness we did it when we did"...


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## kayaksteve (Jun 25, 2022)

It only makes sense to me if the population of any game animal is dropping off and no one can figure out how to fix it the only logical thing to do is reduce opportunity and limit. And hope either it helps or something else does and populations rebound. Or if it continues to decline and nothing can be done to help at some point seasons will be have to be closed. Or we can keep on shooting and hope for the best and turkeys may end up like the grouse.


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## buckpasser (Jun 25, 2022)

kayaksteve said:


> It only makes sense to me if the population of any game animal is dropping off and no one can figure out how to fix it the only logical thing to do is reduce opportunity and limit. And hope either it helps or something else does and populations rebound. Or if it continues to decline and nothing can be done to help at some point seasons will be have to be closed. Or we can keep on shooting and hope for the best and turkeys may end up like the grouse.



I didn’t realize grouse hunters just shot males.  Good to know.


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## kayaksteve (Jun 25, 2022)

I wasn’t intending to start an argument or try to sound like I have the answers. Just some general thoughts I’ve had on the subject and the general opinion I have. I’ve enjoyed hearing others opinions and the discussions they’ve brought up for the most part.


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## buckpasser (Jun 25, 2022)

kayaksteve said:


> I wasn’t intending to start an argument or try to sound like I have the answers. Just some general thoughts I’ve had on the subject and the general opinion I have. I’ve enjoyed hearing others opinions and the discussions they’ve brought up for the most part.



I appreciate your point of view. I wasn’t trying to be snappy, just pointing out an obvious difference in the two animals and their pursuit.  I highly doubt the grouse population is greatly impacted by hunting pressure at this point either though.  Where we differ is in the “no one can fix it” realm. I say the changes have done zero to effect the overall population.  I think an honest response of the perceived problem by biologists, researchers and DNR would be “we don’t know how much if any the population has decreased.  We hear your concerns.  We are looking into the possible problem and may reduce hunter opportunity to make sure more hunters have a chance as we analyze our situation. Please do the following common sense things to improve conditions for turkeys in your local area in the meantime:”.


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## mallardsx2 (Jun 25, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> @mallardsx2[/USER
> By the way, poult recruitment and population WILL go up. It won’t matter what any turkey doc or state wildlife agency does or doesn’t do (within reason and within our old tried and true season dates).  Mark my words on that, the population is coming back.[/QUOTE]
> 
> Why?


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## buckpasser (Jun 25, 2022)

Because that’s what most animals do. They cycle up and the cycle down. I realize some go away and become extinct, but in this case we have no evidence to believe they aren’t just waiting on a rebound.  I base that on the fact that with proper management (very expensive proper management) they are as thick as ever. 

There were rabbits everywhere around here when I was a kid. For most of my life rabbits were nowhere to be seen. Over the past two years we see rabbits everyday.  At some point they will be down again. It’s just the way it is. 

If anyone says this is more serious than that, they might just be making a living on the “problem”.


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## buckpasser (Jun 25, 2022)

cowhornedspike said:


> We will never know.  Season will start later from now on whether it makes a difference or not.  Lost to not return even if doesn't help.
> If poult recruitment does improve they will say "see it helped" and if it doesn't they will say "it would have been worse if we didn't start later so thank goodness we did it when we did"...



It’s a definite “win-win” scenario for them.  I suspect the turkeys come right on back and the “we did that” scenario plays out.


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## Sixes (Jun 25, 2022)

If it is all about protecting the adult males for breeding, why not change the laws to protect the adult males and make the season Jakes only. No birds with more than 5" beards nor full fans.

That should really protect the adult gobbler population


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 26, 2022)

Be part of the solution with trapping coons, possums and yotes...or shut up, bottom line


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 26, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> It’s a definite “win-win” scenario for them.  I suspect the turkeys come right on back and the “we did that” scenario plays out.


get in where you fit in


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## buckpasser (Jun 26, 2022)

Sixes said:


> If it is all about protecting the adult makes for breeding, why not change the laws to protect the adult males and make the season Jakes only. No birds with more than 5" beards nor full fans.
> 
> That should really protect the adult gobbler population



Let’s just not have a season. That way they’ll really be able to take off.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 26, 2022)

Better include great horned owls, Cooper`s and red shouldered hawks, gray rat snakes, yellow rat snakes, and the list goes on.


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## ol bob (Jun 26, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Better include great horned owls, Cooper`s and red shouldered hawks, gray rat snakes, yellow rat snakes, and the list goes on.


Yes Nic. and all theses don't have a season, also they hunt 24/7.


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## Nicodemus (Jun 26, 2022)

ol bob said:


> Yes Nic. and all theses don't have a season, also they hunt 24/7.




All predators hunt long hours. And those I mentioned above do as much, if not more damage than the coyotes evervbody loves to hate.

Something else to think about too. If ALL these predators were gonna wipe out the turkeys, why haven`t they already done it since they`ve all been here for at least the last two Ice Ages? Hundreds of thousands of years to do it and it was only after we came along that the problems have started.


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## spencer12 (Jun 26, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> All predators hunt long hours. And those I mentioned above do as much, if not more damage than the coyotes evervbody loves to hate.
> 
> Something else to think about too. If ALL these predators were gonna wipe out the turkeys, why haven`t they already done it since they`ve all been here for at least the last two Ice Ages? Hundreds of thousands of years to do it and it was only after we came along that the problems have started.


From what I’ve read, the native Americans reported to the first Europeans that in the woods at any normal time there were 1,000s of turkeys within their hunting grounds and there are reports by Europeans of seeing flocks of hundreds of birds. (I’ve read this somewhere) When you had that many it allowed the “predator swamping” technique to work as it should. It was basically impossible to kill them all. Now that the flocks are dwindled to such small numbers I believe the predator problem has a bigger impact. However I don’t believe it is the silver bullet for turkey populations.


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## Turkeytider (Jun 26, 2022)

cowhornedspike said:


> We will never know.  Season will start later from now on whether it makes a difference or not.  Lost to not return even if doesn't help.
> If poult recruitment does improve they will say "see it helped" and if it doesn't they will say "it would have been worse if we didn't start later so thank goodness we did it when we did"...


I don`t know, and neither does anyone else really, but I would wager that " they " would most likely say that, while encouraging, a one year poult increase is not definitive evidence that a later start date was THE determining factor. Scientific method would require a corresponding increase over a protracted period of time to account for other significant variables, weather being probably the most significant.


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 26, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> I don`t know, and neither does anyone else really, but I would wager that " they " would most likely say that, while encouraging, a one year poult increase is not definitive evidence that a later start date was THE determining factor. Scientific method would require a corresponding increase over a protracted period of time to account for other significant variables, weather being probably the most significant.



I refer you back to exhibit A:  The Cedar Creek study.  Now explain again how science follows those rules.


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## ol bob (Jun 26, 2022)

I don't understand why the experts never talk about, inbreeding may be a problem. Unlike deer turkeys stay in a small area, even less during mating.


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## across the river (Jun 26, 2022)

ol bob said:


> I don't understand why the experts never talk about, inbreeding may be a problem. Unlike deer turkeys stay in a small area, even less during mating.



It will obvious vary by habitat, but a turkey will often have a home range larger than you average deer. Wouldn’t think inbreeding would be an issue of much concern.  Here is an article regarding some GPS studies if you are interested.  Gobbler range was up to a ten mile radius and DNA markers showed genetic disposal up to 35 miles in the studies.   They move more than you think. 

https://www.msstate.edu/newsroom/article/2018/03/msu-research-tracks-turkey-movement-habitat-use


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## Turkeytider (Jun 26, 2022)

cowhornedspike said:


> I refer you back to exhibit A:  The Cedar Creek study.  Now explain again how science follows those rules.


Well, I wouldn`t condemn science as a whole. I think this whole issue is going to continue to dance around the May pole interminably. Opinions and viewpoints range from those who believe that there is indeed a turkey population problem and look to those who make it their profession to study it and hopefully can discover causations and solutions, all the way to those who simply don`t feel there`s a turkey population problem at all and are incensed that any action that might impact them personally as hunters has been or will be taken. Those camps will never see eye to eye and IMHO continued debate is pointless. Ya`ll have fun. Turkeytider out.


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## buckpasser (Jun 26, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> Well, I wouldn`t condemn science as a whole. I think this whole issue is going to continue to dance around the May pole interminably. Opinions and viewpoints range from those who believe that there is indeed a turkey population problem and look to those who make it their profession to study it and hopefully can discover causations and solutions, all the way to those who simply don`t feel there`s a turkey population problem at all and are incensed that any action that might impact them personally as hunters has been or will be taken. Those camps will never see eye to eye and IMHO continued debate is pointless. Ya`ll have fun. Turkeytider out.



It’s been fun so far for sure TT. Might not be as much if you leave us. I think CHS was saying that he did in fact trust the science. They did a proper experiment to test the hypothesis of the turkey doc. It failed. They stated they really needed a bigger area (the entire state!!!) after they looked foolish.  I wish I could just push on through after my failures like they didn’t happen. I’d be so much more successful right now.


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## spencer12 (Jun 26, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> It’s been fun so far for sure TT. Might not be as much if you leave us. I think CHS was saying that he did in fact trust the science. They did a proper experiment to test the hypothesis of the turkey doc. It failed. They stated they really needed a bigger area (the entire state!!!) after they looked foolish.  I wish I could just push on through after my failures like they didn’t happen. I’d be so much more successful right now.


I keep seeing this first experiment in this thread, what did they do and where was it at in Georgia? Also who was in control of it?


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## buckpasser (Jun 26, 2022)

spencer12 said:


> I keep seeing this first experiment in this thread, what did they do and where was it at in Georgia? Also who was in control of it?



Here are the basics:
https://georgiawildlife.blog/2019/03/13/research-highlight-male-turkey-gobbling-behavior/


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## buckpasser (Jun 26, 2022)

https://gon.com/news/cedar-creek-wma-delayed-turkey-season

More about the Cedar Creek season delay experiment.


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## spencer12 (Jun 26, 2022)

Thank you, I’m assuming the project didn’t show positive results?


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 26, 2022)

Just air drop viagra, problem solved


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## cj580guitar (Jun 26, 2022)

Or maybe add some to all the feeders that are in the woods. Then we would see a 
rut & strut season like we’ve never seen before !!!


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## cowhornedspike (Jun 26, 2022)

Turkeytider said:


> Well, I wouldn`t condemn science as a whole. I think this whole issue is going to continue to dance around the May pole interminably. Opinions and viewpoints range from those who believe that there is indeed a turkey population problem and look to those who make it their profession to study it and hopefully can discover causations and solutions, all the way to those who simply don`t feel there`s a turkey population problem at all and are incensed that any action that might impact them personally as hunters has been or will be taken. Those camps will never see eye to eye and IMHO continued debate is pointless. Ya`ll have fun. Turkeytider out.



I don't condemn Science.  I just want it followed properly.
They obviously felt that Cedar Creek was large enough and met the other necessary criteria to use that WMA as their several year test area.  ONLY AFTER they didn't get the results they wanted and had predetermined they would get did they decide that it was not large enough.  That is NOT following science.  
Science should question everything and I question this study and the actions taken afterward.   What am I seeing wrong here?


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## buckpasser (Jun 26, 2022)

spencer12 said:


> Thank you, I’m assuming the project didn’t show positive results?



No difference in poult numbers inside the test area or out.  We pushed through with state law anyway, “just cause”.  As I proposed earlier, if the theory was worth a durn it would show up on a north-south gradient in GA anyway due to just ONE opening day and a south to north peak breeding/nesting occurrence.  We’ve already been testing the theory since the 1980’s unknowingly…It’s a bust.


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## mallardsx2 (Jun 27, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> There were rabbits everywhere around here when I was a kid. For most of my life rabbits were nowhere to be seen. Over the past two years we see rabbits everyday.  At some point they will be down again. It’s just the way it is.



When rabbit numbers were down, did you continue killing/hunting them?  Or did you pass on them so their numbers could "bounce back"?

Just curious.


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## Squeaky (Jun 27, 2022)

I saw some info on social media this morning that sounds pretty grim for one study in Oklahoma. I could not find this information published anywhere with this much detail. Below is the information I saw. There was also a screenshot from a Tennessee study that didn’t sound good.

The state of Oklahoma started research this spring…..trapped 28 hens and fitted with tracking devices. 1 died during the trapping/fitting process, 6 died to predators first week. Only 7 attempted to nest in April, all nests were depredation. 4 hens attempted to nest a second time. One hen hatched 6 poults, one hen hatched 3 poults. Nest were monitored daily from a distance not to disturb hen. 3 poults from each hen were fitted with tracking devices June 6 th, as of June 9th all poults were dead to predators. One tracking device was tracked to a cottonmouth water moccasin. As of today all poults dead as well as 15 of 28 hens.

Screenshot I saw posted in regards to TN.



gas station near m3

It’s hard to produce more turkeys or sustain a population when they are struggling to produce. In my personal opinion this is one of the biggest challenges the turkey faces.

I’m helping mine as much as I can. It’s not enough, but I’m seeing results. This is the second year in a row I’ve seen hatches like this on a small 300 acre family farm.


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## ol bob (Jun 27, 2022)

For all the experts, this means nothing, its got to be humans.


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## across the river (Jun 27, 2022)

mallardsx2 said:


> When rabbit numbers were down, did you continue killing/hunting them?  Or did you pass on them so their numbers could "bounce back"?
> 
> Just curious.



He improved the habitat so that he could continue to hunt them while the population improved.


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## KS Bow Hunter (Jun 27, 2022)

Nicodemus said:


> Plus, if coyotes do so much damage to turkeys, how come Texas, Oklahoma, Kansas, and several other western states have excellent turkeys populations?


Where I grew up in Kansas, I can drive outside of town and see 60-200 in a flock just about every day, I know right where they will be, where they roost, and I haven't lived there in close to 30 years...


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 27, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> Because that’s what most animals do. They cycle up and the cycle down. I realize some go away and become extinct, but in this case we have no evidence to believe they aren’t just waiting on a rebound.  I base that on the fact that with proper management (very expensive proper management) they are as thick as ever.
> 
> There were rabbits everywhere around here when I was a kid. For most of my life rabbits were nowhere to be seen. Over the past two years we see rabbits everyday.  At some point they will be down again. It’s just the way it is.
> 
> If anyone says this is more serious than that, they might just be making a living on the “problem”.


About the same here with the rabbits, grouse are a whole different story, was waiting for their 7 year cycle...never happed in 15 years.  There are some pockets of them, but a far cry from the 80s and 90s


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## buckpasser (Jun 27, 2022)

mallardsx2 said:


> When rabbit numbers were down, did you continue killing/hunting them?  Or did you pass on them so their numbers could "bounce back"?
> 
> Just curious.



I couldn’t tell which ones were male, so I passed.


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 27, 2022)

buckpasser said:


> I couldn’t tell which ones were male, so I passed.


Ground ID works...


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## turkeykirk (Jun 27, 2022)

WOODIE13 said:


> About the same here with the rabbits, grouse are a whole different story, was waiting for their 7 year cycle...never happed in 15 years.  There are some pockets of them, but a far cry from the 80s and 90s



I use to see and hear them drumming in NY in the Spring. Haven’t seen any in years. Sad.


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 27, 2022)

turkeykirk said:


> I use to see and hear them drumming in NY in the Spring. Haven’t seen any in years. Sad.


Used to jump 30 to 40 (some had to be reflushes), in @ 6 mile walk, walk that stretch now and you might jump one or two if you're lucky.  It was a strip mine that had grapes, autumn olive, small pines and multifloral rose, now everything is mature, plus toss in the predators


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## WOODIE13 (Jun 28, 2022)

Wonder if squirrels were involved in the mix?  They will eat eggs as well


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