# short barrel vs long barrel



## WaddleWhacker (Nov 11, 2009)

as for as patterens go...do you think a long barrel will have a better patteren than a short barrel


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## hawglips (Nov 11, 2009)

The championship still target shoot winners all use long barrels:

Here's the barrel lengths of the winners in last year's NWTF national championship. You'll notice none of the shotguns have short barrels, and all the custom shotguns have the maximum allowable length (32" including choke)to allow for tightest patterns possible.


Women's 20GA 2008 World Champion

Karie Scott; Custom Savage 210 Bolt-Action shotgun 30" barrel and .560" Indian Creek Choke

Jakes's 20GA 2008 World Champion (17 years old & under)

Jacob Miles; Custom Savage 210 Bolt-Action shotgun with 30" barrel; .560" Indian Creek Choke

12GA Open 2008 World Champion

Brian Sloan; Custom 12GA Savage Bolt-Action Shotgun with a 30" barrel; .665" Indian Creek Choke

20GA Open 2008 World Champion

Scott Kirsch; Custom Winchester 1300 Pump-Action Shotgun with a 30" barrell and Indian Creek Choke 

12GA Muzzleloading Shotgun 2008 World Champion

Brian Sloan; Stock 12GA Muzzleloading Shotgun with 28" barrel; .655" Indian Creek Choke 

So, I'd say the answer to your question is a qualified 'yes.'

You also get a little more velocity from a longer barrel (to a point):

www.guncustomizing.com/tech.htm


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## MKW (Nov 11, 2009)

*...*

Generally, yes, but not enough for me to give up my short barreled turkey guns.

Mike


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## Gadget (Nov 11, 2009)

yes it does, although, like said above, not enough to give up short barrel guns, but I have helped pattern two guns with very short barrels(20-21 inches) that had weak patterns,  didn't have access to many different chokes to really test it but from what I can tell once you go below 24" things start to open up a lot more; therefore, based on what I've seen, I wouldn't go below 24" in a turkey gun.


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## WaddleWhacker (Nov 11, 2009)

guess i'll stick with my long barrel guns


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## icdedturkes (Nov 11, 2009)

Agree with all above. On average it is easier to make a long barrel shoot better. But with today's chokes and loads any barrel length is easy to turn into a 40 yd gun.


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

*Barrel Length*

I moved my daughter up to a 26" barrel this year.  I went from a 26" to a 30" and my wife is shooting a 30" barrel (Winchester model 12).  Going from 21" to 26" improved my daughter's 20 gauge patterns dramatically.


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## MKW (Nov 11, 2009)

*...*

A 30" barrel for turkey hunting?? Wow. Ain't that a little cumbersome?? I mean, I could see it on a SxS, but a SxS would be a good 5-6" shorter than a pump or auto with a 30" tube.

Mike


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## Turkey Comander (Nov 11, 2009)

Only time a long barrel is going to hurt you is if you try and hunt in too thick of stuff.

Contray to what we were told with the short barrels (21" or less)you do give up some velosity....and the ones I tried didn't pattern very well.

In an Auto or pump I like a 24" in a SxS I want at least a 30", my 32" SxS is the same length over all as my 24" SBE with a Rhino choke tube installed. 

What they do at the NWTF still target shoots really has nothing to do with 'real world turkey hunting'.....it's all based on total pellets in a 3 or 4 inch circle.


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## MKW (Nov 11, 2009)

*...*

Yeah, but I think I read somewhere that Magnumdood hunts mostly from a DoubleBull blind. A 30" auto or pump would seem to be a hassle inside a pop-up blind. If not in a blind, I guess it wouldn't be unbearable, but I wouldn't want to tukey hunt with a 30" auto or pump. Just not for me.

Mike


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

MKW said:


> Yeah, but I think I read somewhere that Magnumdood hunts mostly from a DoubleBull blind. A 30" auto or pump would seem to be a hassle inside a pop-up blind. If not in a blind, I guess it wouldn't be unbearable, but I wouldn't want to tukey hunt with a 30" auto or pump. Just not for me.
> 
> Mike


I don't know where you read it Mike, but, put simply, it's not true.  I hauled that cumbersome thing out when my daughter was younger and had trouble staying still.  She's 14 now, and was able to hold rock-solid still, which was a relief for me, because I didn't have to haul that blind a mile back to where we hunt.  I never hunted out of it when it was just me.  Too limiting.  You can't see anything.  Besides, I can hold still, so, no blind for me.  If someone has told you differently they are lying.


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## MKW (Nov 11, 2009)

*...*



Magnumdood said:


> I don't know where you read it Mike, but, put simply, it's not true.  I hauled that cumbersome thing out when my daughter was younger and had trouble staying still.  She's 14 now, and was able to hold rock-solid still, which was a relief for me, because I didn't have to haul that blind a mile back to where we hunt.  I never hunted out of it when it was just me.  Too limiting.  You can't see anything.  Besides, I can hold still, so, no blind for me.  If someone has told you differently they are lying.



My bad, I thought I read that somewhere on one the boards. 

Mike


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## trkyhntr70 (Nov 11, 2009)

I like nothing longer than 24" bbl. I had a 26" gun that patterned great, probally better than anything Ive had and just didnt like it, adding a 2" choke and its 28".  Just not for me.


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## WaddleWhacker (Nov 11, 2009)

i have a 11 87 and a browing bps and both have 30'' barrel's my double barrel has a 26'' barrel but i'm having trouble finding sights to fit the rib some i dont hunt with it much...the 11 87 came with a 20'' barrel but it shoots like crap after about 35 yrds so i bought a aftermarket 30'' barrel


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## WaddleWhacker (Nov 11, 2009)

i'm from the old school and not much for counting holes...i've shot it out to 60 yards with a gobbling thunder 660 tube with winchester extends 5 and 6's and if it came down to it i would'nt be scared to shoot a turkey out to 60 yards...my double barrel has 655 and 665 tubes made by a guy in north ga and it out shoots the 11 87 with the winchester extends...makes me wonder what the nitro's would do out of any of my guns


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## Gadget (Nov 11, 2009)

What was the difference in going from 20 to 30" barrels?


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## Magnumdood (Nov 11, 2009)

Gadget,

Is that a general question or were you asking a specific poster that question?


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## Gadget (Nov 12, 2009)

Magnumdood said:


> Gadget,
> 
> Is that a general question or were you asking a specific poster that question?




I was asking what difference he "observed" in his patterns by going from a 20 to a 30" barrel while using the same choke and shell. How much better was it?


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## turkeys101 (Nov 18, 2009)

i think the long barrel is better.but the short barrel is also very effective.both are excellent.cant even compare the two.


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## kpreston84 (Apr 24, 2010)

I was wondering the same question. Long or short? I have two 870's. One 12 with a 28in and a 20 with a 20in. I have the Primos Jellyheads in both and when I went to pattern them I noticed the the 12ga would shoot anything I put in it at 40-50 yards and pattern great. I have tried only 4 different very cheap loads in it. They all worked great. 4's, 5's, and 6's.  And as far as moving around in the woods and toting it around. It isn't that bad. I just try to sit somewhere where I don't have obstacles withing a certain distance in front of me and I'm good. 

Now for the 20ga. The short barrel makes it very finicky. I had to shoot several loads in it. All #5's. I went through a lot of shells trying to find the right load for it, just so it would reach to 40 yards. I have called Remington and I have a price for 28in barrel for when I get the money. I figure it will help out dramatically on it. But all of this is my own opinion. It just gives me a little more comfort knowing that if something goes hay-wire and I mix up the loads for my guns than I'm still capable of getting a good shot and I don't have to worry about having the bird in my front door if he doesn't want to be there. Now if I mix the 20's and the 12's up??? I'm going home for the weekend. Good luck to all.


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## Nitro (Apr 24, 2010)

I have and use both........

Here's a pattern from a 22" Browning BPS- Nitro  H378i 457s....at a measured 40 yards.

Good enough for me. 

This particular gun has killed a bunch of Gobblers stone dead.


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## Killdee (Apr 24, 2010)

I have shot a Win.1300  3"12 with a 21" barrel since they came out around 79-80 and have never lost a Tom shooting copper#6 federals in the stock  xfull choke. I rarely take a shot past 40yrds but have misjudged my yardage and killed a few a bit beyond 40. There are times when even this gun seemed to long in a tight setup. I am moving away from my antiquated ways and added a JH 660 choke and #7 hevis this year, might even put sights on it. But I still think 40 yrds is as far as 1 should shoot, but thats just my opinion not criticizing others who do, I just want to increase my margin of error for misjudged yardage.


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## Gadget (Apr 24, 2010)

Killdee said:


> I just want to increase my margin of error for misjudged yardage.





and that's exactly the right reason!


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## Dupree (Apr 24, 2010)

kpreston84 said:


> I was wondering the same question. Long or short? I have two 870's. One 12 with a 28in and a 20 with a 20in. I have the Primos Jellyheads in both and when I went to pattern them I noticed the the 12ga would shoot anything I put in it at 40-50 yards and pattern great. I have tried only 4 different very cheap loads in it. They all worked great. 4's, 5's, and 6's.  And as far as moving around in the woods and toting it around. It isn't that bad. I just try to sit somewhere where I don't have obstacles withing a certain distance in front of me and I'm good.
> 
> Now for the 20ga. The short barrel makes it very finicky. I had to shoot several loads in it. All #5's. I went through a lot of shells trying to find the right load for it, just so it would reach to 40 yards. I have called Remington and I have a price for 28in barrel for when I get the money. I figure it will help out dramatically on it. But all of this is my own opinion. It just gives me a little more comfort knowing that if something goes hay-wire and I mix up the loads for my guns than I'm still capable of getting a good shot and I don't have to worry about having the bird in my front door if he doesn't want to be there. Now if I mix the 20's and the 12's up??? I'm going home for the weekend. Good luck to all.



get the $12 remington super full and some federal heavyweight #7's and your 20ga will shoot great! no need for the longer barrel on that gun.


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## Nitro (Apr 24, 2010)

Gadget said:


> and that's exactly the right reason!



Amen!!


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## turky93 (Apr 24, 2010)

For me, it's way more important to be able to tote my gun comfortably. If that means sacrificing some performance, that's fine for my purposes. 
As the other have said though, if pellet count is your main concern, then yes a longer barrel is better.


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## Killdee (Apr 24, 2010)

You might want to join up over at oldgobbler .com  they have a turkey gun section and a 20ga section full of great info. Bunch of knowledgeable shotgunners and some absolutely obsessed with patterns so you should find some more info on your 20.


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## rutandstrut (Apr 24, 2010)

Nitro said:


> I have and use both........
> 
> Here's a pattern from a 22" Browning BPS- Nitro  H378i 457s....at a measured 40 yards.
> 
> ...



Andy, That is what I am talking about! Great Pattern! I just talked to the people at Nitro yesterday and was told that they test all of their loads for Maximum Pellet Count in the Target and Velocity through a 23" Setup including the Extended Choke Tube. They are rated for 1250 FPS through a 23" inch Barrel and Choke Combination!


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## rutandstrut (Apr 24, 2010)

There are so many factors that effect the Pattern that a Shotgun throws (i.e. Shotshell Manufacturer and Shot Size used, Choke Construction and Constriction, Barrel Length, Length of Forcing Cone, Bore Diameter). A longer Barrel will give you higher velocity and a better pattern, which is great for still shooting competitions or card shooting! 

When you are Hunting Turkeys, it is a different story unless you are hunting field bird exclusively! A shorter Barreled Turkey Gun gives you much better portability (lighter weight), mobility in tight woods (won't get caught on branches as you move through the woods and manuverability once you are setup because a Gobbler usually doesn't come in and pose for a shot right in front of you!


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## Brad C. (Apr 24, 2010)

I myself will take a 28" barrel over a 21" or 24" anyday.  But that is just me.  I like the longer barrel and I know for certain that typically the longer barrel will give you an edge in pattern density  downrange at 40yds or farther.  Now some may like the pointabilty and maneuverability features that the shorter barrel will give them.  But I can honestly say after owning both a short and longer barrel gun, I have yet to have a single issue with a longer barrel getting in my way and putting me at a disadvantage.  If anything, it's only an advantage in the turkey woods when you have a barrel that will consistently shoot a little better.  

But I do understand like Tim, and Mike and a few others said above about why they like the shorter barrels.  It's just a matter of what one prefers.


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## Big7 (Apr 24, 2010)

Modern shotgun shells will do all they are going to do in 20"
(with the same choke as the long ones)

Now... The longer barrel will give a longer sight radius which
will account for better "aim" and "hits"..


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## Public Land Prowler (Apr 24, 2010)

I shoot an 870 super mag with 28" barrel,and I think it makes a big difference.It seems to outpattern other supermags with the same load,and choke,only shorter barrels.


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## Gaswamp (Apr 25, 2010)

gadget, I read on OG where you acquired a 220.  I can't remember but I want to say that the barrel will be around  28 inches in length.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Apr 25, 2010)

I have an old bird barrel that's 36 inches long for a Remington 870.  It shoots 2 3/4 inch tighter than any other turkey gun i owned except my old 10 gauge that had a 32 inch barrel.  I would say longer.


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## hawglips (Apr 25, 2010)

Big7 said:


> Modern shotgun shells will do all they are going to do in 20"
> (with the same choke as the long ones)



Not so.  

A shorter barrel causes you to lose velocity.  This is (I thought) a universally understood fact in shotgunning circles.

http://www.guncustomizing.com/tech.htm

http://hunting.maitt.org/outdoor-hunting/shotgun-shell-velocity-618866.html

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=19103



Big7 said:


> Now... The longer barrel will give a longer sight radius which
> will account for better "aim" and "hits"..



"Aim" is a minor advantage of a longer barrel.  Greater velocity and better patterns are better reasons to shoot a longer barrel.


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## Brad C. (Apr 25, 2010)

Well I will say this and there may be a few exceptions to the rule, but not very many.  Having patterned short vs long barrel 870's I can say without a doubt that the pattern advantage is there in a longer barrel.  That is soley the main reason why I buy the longer barrels because I know they will give me added shot performance.  But I will admit that a short barrel will shoot mighty fine.  And you can always buy better ammo like Nitros to shoot in the shorter barrel to make up the difference if you wish.  I myself prefer the longer barrel and the cheaper Hevi-13 7's that I believe will give you just about as good if not as good as Nitros.


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## Tom&Jake (Apr 25, 2010)

As far as patterns go a longer barrel might perform better down range but personally i like my Mossberg 500 with a 20'' barrel it's light weight and alot easier to carry in the woods and so far its got the job done.


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## redneckacorn (Apr 25, 2010)

I had the 835 last year and I'm ashamed to tell you how many turkeys I scared with that thing, I bought it new, there was so many things I ended up not liking about it  that I sold it and got me a regular old 870 this year, I bought the nice $50 tru glo sights and the jelly head choke for it and got me some shells and I can honestly say there was no comparison for me, the remington is the only way to go for us, I tend to tote the gun with the barrel down and that seems to help getting through the woods but honestly we havent' had any problem toting the longer barreled gun. . . but  every turkey we have called in died this year and I aint never looking for a short barreled shotgun again. My dad has an old remington model 11 (the one built on the browning pattern, the old hump back) with a 32 inch barrel I'm gonna try out this upcoming year.


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## Gadget (Apr 25, 2010)

Gaswamp said:


> gadget, I read on OG where you acquired a 220.  I can't remember but I want to say that the barrel will be around  28 inches in length.





Yep, I was lucky to find a 220A 20ga with 28" barrel in just about mint condition, Gun Docc has it now, he's doing all the fixings and mounting a Docter on it, then planning on sending it off to have it dipped, probably in Bottomland. I saw the one you and your buddy have over there, one is a 16ga, gonna be kinda hard to find ammo for that gun, especially in a turkey shell. I almost bought a 16ga myself, but after looking at the shell capacity I found  you could load just as large a payload in a 3" 20ga wad as you could a 2 3/4 16ga, so I decided to go with a 20ga instead. I'll be loading my own shells in TSS so it didn't matter to me what's available on the commercial market as far as shells go.

Been looking for a 220A in good condition for a while, they're kinda hard to come by, most are all wore out and beat up real bad with rusted up and pitted barrels. A 28" break action will be just as long as a pump or auto in 24" , the extra 4 inches will make a difference in pattern and velocity.


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## Big7 (Apr 25, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Not so.
> 
> A shorter barrel causes you to lose velocity.  This is (I thought) a universally understood fact in shotgunning circles.
> 
> ...



Not to be argumentative, as you and I usually agree.
But... I can find plenty of links to make my point just like you did. 
Nothing wrong with that.

That said, modern shotshells use modern propellants
that burn completely in that length... Not so in the old days,
hence the placebo effect that lives to this day. If you think it's working
 for you, it most likely is helping your confidence
and thats good.

I don't know if you handload but if you do you know that
all powders have a different burn rate.

A fast enough powder will do all it will do in 20"
_That is a fact._

As far as the "aim" deal I tend to use a longer barrel
for dove just because of the longer sight radius.

For turkey.. I mostly use a single-shot NEF 3 1/2" chamber
short barrel. Sometimes I use an 870 3" chamber and a 26 or 28" barrel.

WaddleWhacker asked for an opinion.
This is mine. I still stand by it.


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## Gaswamp (Apr 25, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Yep, I was lucky to find a 220A 20ga with 28" barrel in just about mint condition, Gun Docc has it now, he's doing all the fixings and mounting a Docter on it, then planning on sending it off to have it dipped, probably in Bottomland. I saw the one you and your buddy have over there, one is a 16ga, gonna be kinda hard to find ammo for that gun, especially in a turkey shell. I almost bought a 16ga myself, but after looking at the shell capacity I found  you could load just as large a payload in a 3" 20ga wad as you could a 2 3/4 16ga, so I decided to go with a 20ga instead. I'll be loading my own shells in TSS so it didn't matter to me what's available on the commercial market as far as shells go.
> 
> Been looking for a 220A in good condition for a while, they're kinda hard to come by, most are all wore out and beat up real bad with rusted up and pitted barrels. A 28" break action will be just as long as a pump or auto in 24" , the extra 4 inches will make a difference in pattern and velocity.



Yeah the 20 I have there is in great condition as well.
Ive got a few options with the 16.  Nitro will probably be at the top of the list.


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## rutandstrut (Apr 25, 2010)

hawglips said:


> Not so.
> 
> A shorter barrel causes you to lose velocity.  This is (I thought) a universally understood fact in shotgunning circles.
> 
> ...



I talked to the good people at Nitro Ammo and they told me that they test the Turkey Shotshells they make through a Barrel/Choke Combination that is 23" total. The Velocity of most of their loads is 1250 FPS and the Pellet counts speak for themself!


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## hawglips (Apr 26, 2010)

Big7 said:


> Not to be argumentative, as you and I usually agree.
> But... I can find plenty of links to make my point just like you did.
> Nothing wrong with that.
> 
> ...



No argument at all.   And no placebo involved.  

I'm just passing on info regarding the physical law fact that a longer barrel will give you greater velocity than a shorter barrel, all else being equal.

I've never seen a link that showed actually tested velocities other than those that showed longer barrel = higher velocities.  I'd like to see some links that you speak of as I've never been able to find any.

The gun mfrs want us to buy another gun, so they sell the short barreled turkey guns and pass on the myth of shorter barrel doesn't make any difference with modern powders, yada yada yada.  But it is false information and a sales job.

Those among us who have sent loads off to the lab to get tested after chronying their own can also vouch fof the longer barrel = higher velocity fact.

And the lab I have used will give out the info freely to anyone who asks.  The guy who does the testing there says that it's generally about 15 fps per inch that you lose.   I have heard that it's more like 10 fps faster, but it appears that it's about 100 fps per 6 inches based on a conglomeration of all that I've read on it. 



Big7 said:


> I don't know if you handload but if you do you know that
> all powders have a different burn rate.
> 
> A fast enough powder will do all it will do in 20"
> _That is a fact._



But that's not so.

It's not the powder that does the damage.  It's the pressure of the gases that the burning powder gives off that does the job.  Shorter barrels allow the gases to dissipate out the end of the barrel quicker.  A longer barrel keeps them contained inside the barrel and pushing behind the wad longer.

Go to the Nitro website and see what they have to say about barrel length and velocity.  One of their sales pitches is that they test their shells out of shorter barrels, so their velocities are higher than those rated on shells that are tested out of SAAMI standard laboratories that use 30" barrels.

A tight choke also increases velocity.  I forget the name of the effect, but its like when you constrict a garden hose some, the water shoot out in a faster stream.

Yes, I handload, and I am intimately familiar with faster vs. slower burning powders.  I have a nice stash of many of them.  And I have worked up heavy turkey loads from scratch and have developed some with powders that you will not find in any published data for a load like mine, etc.



Big7 said:


> As far as the "aim" deal I tend to use a longer barrel
> for dove just because of the longer sight radius.
> 
> For turkey.. I mostly use a single-shot NEF 3 1/2" chamber
> ...



The problem is that physical laws are not opinions.   I'm just passing information regarding this one along.


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## Big7 (Apr 26, 2010)

OK Hawglips...
Here you go....
Re-read your post about pressures and all that you mention
then compare it to these.

Here is a good starting place.
Almost all the way down to the bottom
so, scroll all the way down.
A lot more useful info here too..

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Shotgun
Barrel length
Shotguns generally have longer barrels than rifles, but the long shotgun barrel is not for ballistic purposes; shotgun shells use small powder charges in large diameter bores, and this leads to very low muzzle pressures, and very little velocity change with increasing barrel length. _*Modern powder in a shotgun burns completely in 10-14-inch barrels.*_
Shotguns made for close ranges, where the angular speed of the targets is great (such as upland bird hunting) tend to have shorter barrels, around 26 to 28 inches (660 to 710 mm). Shotguns for longer range shooting, where angular speeds are less (trap shooting, pheasant, and waterfowl hunting) tend to have longer barrels, 28 to 34 inches. The longer barrels have more inertia, and will therefore swing slower but steadier. The short, low inertia barrels swing faster, but are less steady.


More HERE:
http://www.learnaboutguns.com/2008/0...barrel-length/
Shorter Barrels

Pros: More maneuverable, less weight
Cons: Shorter sighting plane, more noise, more muzzle flash, more recoil

Shorter shotgun barrels are best suited to home defense shotguns. The shorter length allows the user to maneuver the shotgun more freely. I recommend an 18″ barrel, which will allow the shotgun to be swung with ease, but will still maintain the full ballistic performance one would expect from a longer barrel.
Case closed....

If you like longer barrels Good for you.
I'll stay with my little NEF 3 1/2 inch
12.. I would not have a problem with a properly loaded and choked 20ga too.

If you take the time to read ALL the material in these two links
you will also find that a longer barrel actually SLOWS down the payload due to friction once the gas pressure has
 "maxed out".

Now.. You go ahead and believe what you want to.
I had a LOT of Physics classes to get the two degrees I have had for many years. 

B.S.M.E. Bachelor of Science, Mechanical Engineering.
B.S.C.E. Bachelor of Science, Chemical Engineering.

I'm pretty familar with the Laws of Physics. 

PS... Be carefull what you take as fact from someone that is trying to sell you shotgun shells.


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## Nitro (Apr 26, 2010)




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## hawglips (Apr 26, 2010)

> Hawglips: I've never seen a link that showed actually tested velocities other than those that showed longer barrel = higher velocities. I'd like to see some links that you speak of as I've never been able to find any.



Big7, I would love to learn from you and your engineering degrees.

But where are the actual tests done with actual shells being shot through different length barrels giving actual velocities that I asked for? 

Are you saying that you are disputing the actual results found in the two tests I cited?  Did you look at them? 

So far, all I have seen are tests showing longer barrel = greater velocity.  Of course, I am sure that at some length the friction loss of the barrel would overtake the velocity gain, but evidently that is somewhere over the 30-32" length mark.

But if you can find any, I'd love to see actual numbers from actual tests showing shorter barrels keeping the same velocity as longer barrels.

In the meantime, here's some more.   This batch of actual test result numbers is mostly rifle barrels.  All I can find are actual tested and measured velocities showing shorter barrels = less velocity.  And there are lots of them.  They seem to have all found the same thing. 

http://www.accuratereloading.com/223sb.html

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2009/02/05/barrel-length-and-velocity-barrel-cut-down-tests/

http://thehunterslife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3050

http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnoidArchive/20-Jul-09.pdf

Even Andew's boys over at Nitros make sure all their customers (well at least most of them I guess) understand the longer barrel length = higher velocity connection:

"_It is very important to know the length of the test barrels used to test velocities of the ammunition you select. If ammunition velocity is tested out of a 30" barrel (as most manufacturers use), you would be very disappointed to know that you will not be getting their advertised velocity from a 21" barrel. If you have access to a chronograph, which measure feet per second velocities, you should test your ammunition to make sure you are shooting over 1,100 fps. Nitro Company tests all ammunition out of 21" & 24" test barrels (depending on the gauge of the gun) so that you will be getting actual velocities._ "

But I'm open to learn here.  So, please share any actual tests showing actual measured results if you can find any.   I would also love to challenge Nitro Ray and the guy at the ballistics lab who are spreading the false info that you lose velocity when you reduce barrel length.  It isn't right if they are misinforming their customers.  

Thanks.


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## kcausey (Apr 26, 2010)

I rolled one at 59 yards through some thick stuff with an 870 SuperMag...20" barrel with a Jelly Head .665" and Hevi13 2oz #6.


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## hawglips (Apr 26, 2010)

Big7 said:


> PS... Be carefull what you take as fact from someone that is trying to sell you shotgun shells.



I don't buy shotgun shells.  I roll my own.


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## Big7 (Apr 26, 2010)

The first three links are for rifle barrels.. So.. I don't know where you are going with that? 

The fourth one seems to make most of my points...

I would quote it but my puter won't copy .pdf files..
OPEN IT UP AND RE-READ IT...
http://www.shotgunreport.com/TechTech/TechnoidArchive/20-Jul-09.pdf

I'm not going to change your mind and you are not going to change mine..

I guess the only thing we have left to do is bring our guns and a crony with some paper to my Dad's farm and shoot a while.. 

A dead turkey is a dead turkey.
I have yet to have one take a step and never needed a follow up shot. 

Happy hunting..


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## hawglips (Apr 26, 2010)

Big7, surely you are jesting.

You can't come up with ANY data involving actual tests that support your point.

But I can come up with 8 or 9 different actual tests with hard data supporting mine, plus plus a ballistics laboratory and a custom ammo manufacturer -- and you still think your unsupported stance is correct, while mine is wrong in spite of the unanimous test results?

And you think the pdf file I sent that shows how it goes from 5 to 15 fps per inch particularly in the slower burning powders, somehow supports the opposite?

Wow.


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## Brad C. (Apr 26, 2010)

Well I think long barrels will give you a velocity advantage and as I already said a little bit better patterns.  But I also think there is really no point in saying a short barrel is better than a longer barrel or vice versa.  As long as you are hunting and killing turkeys with your barrel whether it be long, short, fat or skinny is really all that matters.  I personally think I myself would rather have a barrel that throws a pattern almost exactly centered over what I am aiming at with the factory front bead than to worry about barrel length so much.


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## turky93 (Apr 26, 2010)

Brad C. said:


> Well I think long barrels will give you a velocity advantage and as I already said a little bit better patterns.  But I also think there is really no point in saying a short barrel is better than a longer barrel or vice versa.  As long as you are hunting and killing turkeys with your barrel whether it be long, short, fat or skinny is really all that matters.  I personally think I myself would rather have a barrel that throws a pattern almost exactly centered over what I am aiming at with the factory front bead than to worry about barrel length so much.



That's ridiculous. Turkey hunting can't be that simple!


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## TheTurkeySlayer (Apr 26, 2010)

I dont think that the length of the barrel has any kind of effect on your pattern. The only difference in short and long barrels is  its easier to maneuver and lighter with shorter barrel. the choke is what is controlling the spread of the shot.


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## Gadget (Apr 26, 2010)

Big7 said:


> I guess the only thing we have left to do is bring our guns and a crony with some paper to my Dad's farm and shoot a while..





I've chrono'd hundreds of loads through 6 different guns from 24 to 28, I consistently see a higher velocity and better patterns with the longer barrels, I've also sent several of my loads to a SAAMI certificated lab to be tested and they all test out at a higher velocity, they use 30 inch barrels. The person who runs the lab verified to me they see 7-15fps faster per inch of barrel with the loads they test.


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## Gadget (Apr 26, 2010)

gogatorsjr said:


> I dont think that the length of the barrel has any kind of effect on your pattern. The only difference in short and long barrels is  its easier to maneuver and lighter with shorter barrel. the choke is what is controlling the spread of the shot.




Why don't you call Curtis Wilbanks aka (Gun Doc) tomorrow and tell him that, he's only got 40yrs expieriece patterning and making custom card shooting guns, I'm sure he'd like to know he's got it all wrong.........


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## Gaswamp (Apr 27, 2010)

I don't know why GuNDocc uses 36 inch  long barrels


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## TheTurkeySlayer (Apr 27, 2010)

Gadget said:


> Why don't you call Curtis Wilbanks aka (Gun Doc) tomorrow and tell him that, he's only got 40yrs expieriece patterning and making custom card shooting guns, I'm sure he'd like to know he's got it all wrong.........




Thats just what ive experienced. Not sayin he's wrong, or that im right.  Just sayin.


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## hawglips (Apr 28, 2010)

gogatorsjr said:


> Thats just what ive experienced. Not sayin he's wrong, or that im right.  Just sayin.



I'd love to see your patterns / velocity readings comparing shorter vs longer barrels.


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## Gadget (May 1, 2010)

gogatorsjr said:


> Thats just what ive experienced. Not sayin he's wrong, or that im right.  Just sayin.





I load my own shotshells and have developed several recipes, in doing so I've done a lot of "testing". I've shot hundreds of shells through 6 different guns with barrels ranging from 24 to 28", the chrono consistently shows faster speeds with the longer barrel guns, this is with a variety of shells, custom and commercial, shot over a dozen different commercial loads in the last year.

The patterns are better with the longer barrels too. I have two sets of guns that have the same barrels except the length, I can screw the same choke out of one and shoot in the other for a direct comparison. For example, I have two Browning BPS's, one 24" and one 26", also have a Browning Citori 525 with a 28", all three take the same Invector Plus choke; then I have two Benelli's, one with 24 and 26", the use the same. 

So you can see I can do all kinds of direct comparisons of both velocity and patterns using the same choke in different guns, I have personally found both speed and pattern advantages in longer barrels as reported by Nitro, Gun Docc and others.


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## rutandstrut (May 1, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I load my own shotshells and have developed several recipes, in doing so I've done a lot of "testing". I've shot hundreds of shells through 6 different guns with barrels ranging from 24 to 28", the chrono consistently shows faster speeds with the longer barrel guns, this is with a variety of shells, custom and commercial, shot over a dozen different commercial loads in the last year.
> 
> The patterns are better with the longer barrels too. I have two sets of guns that have the same barrels except the length, I can screw the same choke out of one and shoot in the other for a direct comparison. For example, I have two Browning BPS's, one 24" and one 26", also have a Browning Citori 525 with a 28", all three take the same Invector Plus choke; then I have two Benelli's, one with 24 and 26", the use the same.
> 
> So you can see I can do all kinds of direct comparisons of both velocity and patterns using the same choke in different guns, I have personally found both speed and pattern advantages in longer barrels as reported by Nitro, Gun Docc and others.



Gadget, What Velocity are you getting out of a 24"? 26"? Barrel? Nitro is getting 1200 to 1240 FPS out of a 2 3/4" Turkey Shell!


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## hawglips (May 2, 2010)

Rick could slow his shells down to 1000 fps and get more turkey head penetration at 40 yds than hevishot 7s at 1250 fps.


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## TheTurkeySlayer (May 4, 2010)

Gadget said:


> I load my own shotshells and have developed several recipes, in doing so I've done a lot of "testing". I've shot hundreds of shells through 6 different guns with barrels ranging from 24 to 28", the chrono consistently shows faster speeds with the longer barrel guns, this is with a variety of shells, custom and commercial, shot over a dozen different commercial loads in the last year.
> 
> The patterns are better with the longer barrels too. I have two sets of guns that have the same barrels except the length, I can screw the same choke out of one and shoot in the other for a direct comparison. For example, I have two Browning BPS's, one 24" and one 26", also have a Browning Citori 525 with a 28", all three take the same Invector Plus choke; then I have two Benelli's, one with 24 and 26", the use the same.
> 
> So you can see I can do all kinds of direct comparisons of both velocity and patterns using the same choke in different guns, I have personally found both speed and pattern advantages in longer barrels as reported by Nitro, Gun Docc and others.




I aint got the money for all that gear to see what the actual velocity is and what not. But when ive shot a Mossberg 500 w/ a 24 inch barrel and compared it to my Mossberg 500 w/ a 20 inch barrel with the same choke, they are both almost the same pattering. Im not real worrired bout how fast my pellets are flyin at 30 yards, Im only concerned bout gettin em back to the truck!


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## Gaswamp (May 4, 2010)

gadget or hawglips have either of you patterned your guns at 25 yds or less?  Is so, post up some pics if you have them available.


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## hawglips (May 4, 2010)

Gaswamp said:


> gadget or hawglips have either of you patterned your guns at 25 yds or less?  Is so, post up some pics if you have them available.





> Why should they?



Actually, yes, I have.   My 20 yd patterns with the regular variety of TSS shells pattern at 20 yds not significantly different than other HTL shells.  It's more of a choke-determined pattern at that range than it is a shot determined pattern.

But where you are going with the question is an interesting topic to me.  And it reflects the reality that most folks just don't understand TSS.   

TSS is the perfect shot material for shells that you want to do creative things with.  We are so accustomed to out-dated thinking in our daddy's lead minds, that it's hard for most folks to grasp what TSS allows you to do.   TSS has so much excess penetration and excess pattern density, that you can have your cake and eat it too.  It's beautiful stuff.

And funny you should ask about close in patterns, because in fact, the only loads I shot at all this year out of my 12 ga. were my T98 "CM" loads.  "CM" stands for "Can't Miss."

Now of course, anyone can always miss, but I call them that because they make it harder to miss at any range.  They throw a wide pattern at close range and still have enough core pattern of TSS penetration to kill at much farther ranges than most folks on here have ever considered shooting at a turkey.  

You're getting me anxious to start back on some TSS projects this summer!  I've some new ideas I want to work on with it in the off-season.   So many projects and so little time to get them done....


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## Gadget (May 5, 2010)

rutandstrut said:


> Gadget, What Velocity are you getting out of a 24"? 26"? Barrel? Nitro is getting 1200 to 1240 FPS out of a 2 3/4" Turkey Shell!





 keep in mind, like Hal stated you don't need to run the TSS that fast to get the penetration you need, Nitro does using 7.5 hevishot, I could back my load weight down and increase the velocity if I wanted to, I could match Nitro specs, but I don't need or want to, they have to push their loads a lot harder with the 7.5's to get the 40+yd penetration they need, and therefore they have alot more kick and probably higher pressure as well based on the shell sticking problem some ppl have seen. I would rather increase my pellet count with a larger payload than push my loads to unnecessary speeds.

Says right on the Nitro website that in testing they've found they need to push the small 7.5 hevishot to at least 1,100 muzzle velocity for a 40yd kill, I would agree with that statement. Pushing their loads up to 1200-1240 muzzle velocity accounts for the 7.5 hevishot' ability to make 50-60yds kills. If those loads were sent to a SAAMI certified test lab which uses a 30" barrel for all testing then those loads would test out to be around 1,300fps. Nitro is pushing a 3.5 2.25oz load to 1300fps where all the other manufacturers will only push the same load to 1,200fps max, that's why you get the extreme kick you see with Nitros, and also why some ppl have seen some shells sticking in the barrel and not ejecting.....probably because of high pressures; Part of the problem also with the sticking shells is that they went from using very high quality Federal hulls to using the cheaper and thinner Multi-hulls, I think they went back to the Federals because of that.


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## Brad C. (May 5, 2010)

That wasn't a nice reply on my part.  So I deleted my post.


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## rutandstrut (May 6, 2010)

Gadget said:


> keep in mind, like Hal stated you don't need to run the TSS that fast to get the penetration you need, Nitro does using 7.5 hevishot, I could back my load weight down and increase the velocity if I wanted to, I could match Nitro specs, but I don't need or want to, they have to push their loads a lot harder with the 7.5's to get the 40+yd penetration they need, and therefore they have alot more kick and probably higher pressure as well based on the shell sticking problem some ppl have seen. I would rather increase my pellet count with a larger payload than push my loads to unnecessary speeds.
> 
> Says right on the Nitro website that in testing they've found they need to push the small 7.5 hevishot to at least 1,100 muzzle velocity for a 40yd kill, I would agree with that statement. Pushing their loads up to 1200-1240 muzzle velocity accounts for the 7.5 hevishot' ability to make 50-60yds kills. If those loads were sent to a SAAMI certified test lab which uses a 30" barrel for all testing then those loads would test out to be around 1,300fps. Nitro is pushing a 3.5 2.25oz load to 1300fps where all the other manufacturers will only push the same load to 1,200fps max, that's why you get the extreme kick you see with Nitros, and also why some ppl have seen some shells sticking in the barrel and not ejecting.....probably because of high pressures; Part of the problem also with the sticking shells is that they went from using very high quality Federal hulls to using the cheaper and thinner Multi-hulls, I think they went back to the Federals because of that.



I had problems with Nitro Ammo sticking in my 835...after having this problem several times and missing one at close range due to a tight choke and small pattern I sold all the Nitro Shells that I had and switch to Winchester Extended Range and Hevi-13 Shells a couple years. I was just curious about the velocity. Heavy shot is not uniform in shape like the TSS shot is. I bought a Press and had another one given to me...I will definitely be loading some shells this summer and may be contacted you or Hal for some help with loading TSS Shot.


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## Killdee (May 7, 2010)

This is an interesting thread for sure. I have also been spending some time at the oldgobbler forum and have learned a lot about patterns and shotgun care over there this year. In the past I just hunted and cleaned it up. Here is another thread re this subject over there.

http://oldgobbler.com/TheForum/index.php/topic,10109.0.html


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