# Evidence of the Holy Spirit



## Who-Rah (Aug 17, 2011)

I know this has the potential of controversy. So here are the questions:
Is speaking in tongues the only Evidence that the believer has received the Holy Spirit?

Is the Holy Spirit something you receive in addition to Salvation?


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## LovinOutside (Aug 17, 2011)

Who-Rah said:


> I know this has the potential of controversy. So here are the questions:
> Is speaking in tongues the only Evidence that the believer has received the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Is the Holy Spirit something you receive in addition to Salvation?



The Holy Spirit is not a thing.  He is a He.  Third person of the Trinity, God, glorified and worshipped along with the Father and the Son.

Galatians 5:22-23:

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 17, 2011)

Who-Rah said:


> I know this has the potential of controversy. So here are the questions:
> Is speaking in tongues the only Evidence that the believer has received the Holy Spirit? *Absolutely not.*
> 
> Is the Holy Spirit something you receive in addition to Salvation?*It's a package deal, yes.*



The Holy Spirit convicts us. "He Leadeth Me" God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit is the He.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 17, 2011)

Even in the 1st century church not all Christians spoke in languages by the power of the Holy Spirit.

Biblically, having that gift was never an indication of a person having salvation.  
Some had the gift of healing, others prophesy.


And it isn't today.


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## jmharris23 (Aug 18, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Even in the 1st century church not all Christians spoke in languages by the power of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Biblically, having that gift was never an indication of a person having salvation.
> Some had the gift of healing, others prophesy.
> ...




This


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## gtparts (Aug 18, 2011)

It should be noted that a lot of what is passed off as tongues today does not come close to meeting the biblical standard. Some groups even teach it to children in structured classes. It is frequently motivated by pride or a desire not to be left out of the "inner circle". Neither is supported by Scripture.


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## formula1 (Aug 18, 2011)

*Re:*



Ronnie T said:


> Even in the 1st century church not all Christians spoke in languages by the power of the Holy Spirit.
> 
> Biblically, having that gift was never an indication of a person having salvation.
> Some had the gift of healing, others prophesy.
> ...



To the OP:

Answers:
1) No. Tongues is not the only evidence that people have received the Holy Spirit.
Tongues were evidence, prophecy was evidence, and speaking boldly the word of God was evidence of the Holy Spirit working in the early church(Acts), along with miracles and healings and all manner of gifts like mercy. love and great faith. My own thoughts on this is don't discount any of them, though I know some will disagree.

2) You can receive the Holy Spirit as a separate experience to Salvation. But many receive the Holy Spirit at their point of Salvation as well. For this, I think the scriptures teach both are possible scenarios.

The Holy Spirit for every Believer
Acts 2
38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." 

1 Corinthians 12:7
To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good.

Power for Living in Christ
Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth." 

Luke24:49 And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high."

Most importantly, I would have to take you to the greatest gift of the Spirit in 1 Corinthian 13, and that is Love.  And this is not love as the world knows, but many have seen it in the most precious of the saints who walk among us. I bet you know some as I do.  My Mother is one, for example.  Total strangers have met my Mom and been overwhelmed with the Love resident in her immediately.  When you've been in the presence of one of these saints, you just know it.

Pursue Love, and I would ask you to pray and ask God for that gift of Love to fall upon you. Also, do not discount the other gifts. Make Love your goal though and the Holy Spirit will fill you immensely as you submit to Him. And if God wills one of these other gifts into your life, you will know it and you can't stop it!


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## centerpin fan (Aug 18, 2011)

gtparts said:


> ... a lot of what is passed off as tongues today does not come close to meeting the biblical standard.



That's an understatement:


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## truthfulhawk (Aug 18, 2011)

*hmm*

Without throwing gasoline on a fire, I would like to point out that Paul makes it clear that not only is "speaking in tongues" not an evidence of salvation, it isnt even the greatest gift.


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## EMC-GUN (Aug 18, 2011)

truthfulhawk said:


> Without throwing gasoline on a fire, I would like to point out that Paul makes it clear that not only is "speaking in tongues" not an evidence of salvation, it isnt even the greatest gift.



This is the verse I always refer to and think of when I get someone who is CERTAIN that they are going to heaven because they speak in tongues, and others are not if they DON'T. According to Paul there are more highly esteemed gifts one can have. It is also the most counterfeited gift in the "church". I have seen foolish babbling that is the farthest thing from God in certain instances.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 18, 2011)

LovinOutside said:


> The Holy Spirit is not a thing.  He is a He.  Third person of the Trinity, God, glorified and worshipped along with the Father and the Son.
> 
> Galatians 5:22-23:
> 
> But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 18, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> That's an understatement:



Cuttin' a shine, ain't they? goodness gracious.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 18, 2011)

formula1 said:


> To the OP:
> 
> Answers:
> 1) No. Tongues is not the only evidence that people have received the Holy Spirit.
> ...



Great post!


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## LovinOutside (Aug 18, 2011)

I would only take exception with part two.  If you are saved, you have Him, the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:9:

You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him

If you do not have the Spirit living in you, you are not a Christian.

context:

9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. 10But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

12 So then, brothers,we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.


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## Gabassmaster (Aug 18, 2011)

Who-Rah said:


> I know this has the potential of controversy. So here are the questions:
> Is speaking in tongues the only Evidence that the believer has received the Holy Spirit?
> 
> Is the Holy Spirit something you receive in addition to Salvation?



God gave the disciples the gift to speak in tongues in Acts:2 as a sign for the Jews explained in Mark 16:17-18. Although when they spoke in tongues it was not babbling like most pentecostals do today Acts 2:8 says every man heard them in their own language the disciples were speaking in greek but by the time it got to the people it was in their native tongue, not somthing they cant understand besides the only time someone nowadays speaks in tongues if if they are faking it or if they are possessed.


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## Who-Rah (Aug 18, 2011)

These are all great posts! I have been working through this with a friend and his adamant that the only evidence is the gift of tongues. The information ya'll have given me will help with this discussion. I knew I come here and get some great info.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 18, 2011)

LovinOutside said:


> If you do not have the Spirit living in you, you are not a Christian.



Amen!


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## Bama4me (Aug 18, 2011)

Who-Rah said:


> These are all great posts! I have been working through this with a friend and his adamant that the only evidence is the gift of tongues. The information ya'll have given me will help with this discussion. I knew I come here and get some great info.



Have you tried looking at 1 Corinthians 12:4-11?  In the first century, there were many gifts of the Holy Spirit... many of them cited in the passage.  However, since the miraculous gifts given by apostles (laying on of hands), none of these things continue in existence today.


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## pjeremy (Aug 18, 2011)

*PJeremy*



Who-Rah said:


> These are all great posts! I have been working through this with a friend and his adamant that the only evidence is the gift of tongues. The information ya'll have given me will help with this discussion. I knew I come here and get some great info.



I think the greatest evidence we have The Holy spirit, is that He the Spirit is producing His fruit through our lives. I know many well intended Pentecostals who daily speak in other tongues but rarely  produce the fruit of The Spirit found in Galatians 6.

Pastor Jeremy
Community Church


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## formula1 (Aug 19, 2011)

Who-Rah said:


> These are all great posts! I have been working through this with a friend and his adamant that the only evidence is the gift of tongues. The information ya'll have given me will help with this discussion. I knew I come here and get some great info.



Glad we are able to help in your situation. Just remember that Truth is in the Scriptures. Hopefully, the Truth contained in them will lead you to best help your friend. There are many voices you will hear, but test them with Word of God always. God bless!


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## Israel (Aug 20, 2011)

I think the sign is trouble.
Get filled up to floating on the spirit and there will be plenty willing to pull you back to earth.
Lacking that they will use ack ack.


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## Mako22 (Aug 20, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> I think the greatest evidence we have The Holy spirit, is that He the Spirit is producing His fruit through our lives. I know many well intended Pentecostals who daily speak in other tongues but rarely  produce the fruit of The Spirit found in Galatians 6.
> 
> Pastor Jeremy
> Community Church



Good post but I would tweek it just a little: the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit and not his indwelling. To be filled we only have to surrender 100% to his will. I believe that a changed heart and the peace of God in that heart are evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2011)

In John 20:22 Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit into the apostles.
And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

In time, they would be baptized "with" the Holy Spirit.
Acts 1:5
for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

Acts 1:8 Jesus speaks to apostles:  you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”


This is what the Holy Spirit gave the apostles also. Acts 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

After Peter taught the Gospel to them they asked, "What shall we do."  Peter responded  Acts 2:38
 “ Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 20, 2011)

Woodsman69 said:


> Good post but I would tweek it just a little: the fruit of the Spirit is evidence of the filling of the Holy Spirit and not his indwelling. To be filled we only have to surrender 100% to his will. I believe that a changed heart and the peace of God in that heart are evidence of the indwelling of the Spirit.



Scriptural explanation please.


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## ted_BSR (Aug 21, 2011)

I have never spoken in tounges.

Something weird happens to me every time I pray though.

I am always brought to tears when I pray. Even a simple blessing of the meal squeezes out a tear. I am a big strong man, but I cannot stop this from happening. I used to be embarrassed about it, but now I just go with it.

I think this happens when I come into the presence of the Holy Spirit. I don't think everyone has to have this reaction, it just seems to be my way.


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## thedeacon (Aug 21, 2011)

gtparts said:


> It should be noted that a lot of what is passed off as tongues today does not come close to meeting the biblical standard. Some groups even teach it to children in structured classes. It is frequently motivated by pride or a desire not to be left out of the "inner circle". Neither is supported by Scripture.



Right On


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## mtnwoman (Aug 22, 2011)

ted_BSR said:


> I have never spoken in tounges.
> 
> Something weird happens to me every time I pray though.
> 
> ...



I do that a lot....it's like our hearts are softened when we speak to or come into the presence of Jesus...I also feel very humbled.


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## formula1 (Aug 22, 2011)

*Re:*



ted_BSR said:


> I have never spoken in tounges.
> 
> Something weird happens to me every time I pray though.
> 
> ...



You are full of love for the Father and what He has done for you in Christ, and that's what matters.

Weird happenings are good happenings in prayer!


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## BT Charlie (Aug 22, 2011)

Ted, that's great.  I appreciate your honesty.  I had a pastor once who had the same sign of the presence of the Spirit.  He'd tear up, then choke up.  Then he'd lock up.  You could kind of see this wave wash over him.


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## BT Charlie (Aug 23, 2011)

We loved that guy, by the way!


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## gordon 2 (Aug 24, 2011)

I don't know many things but I know that the tongue today might be the arteries of the heart in 2000 yrs. The sound of aramaic is jiberish today, but O how the hearts are full for it?

May I share my idea on the Toronto church which will be off topic, because I never lived it as a speaking in tongue church. The Toronto church was and perhaps continues to be a healing and great commission church. And this church or movement, Later Rain Movement, (I think) was spiritually sucessful, very sucessful for a time.

This church did two things very well. It had two gifts. It healed alot of people who had been made pilars of salt by their religious heritage. Those that had never been permitted to be the children of God were permitted by the Holy Spirit to be children again. Those that had been denied a very intimate, and I mean intimate, and loving relationship with God were allowed to put their arms around non other than Jesus. Those that had never been alowed to cry, were premitted to cry. Those that had never been permitted to express joy, found joy in the Lord. Those that had been called and discouraged were incouraged. Those that were in the spirit, were not shoved out the door at closing time.

Many who had been saved once or had never know the way and had fallen on sin were saved again as they were given every oppertunity to recieve Jesus, who cried with them and forgave them...And God forgot their sins.

I don't think that the way a person is dilivered from spiritual pain especially in the way Jesus meant it that it should bring in the case of the Toronto Movement accusation for the counterfitting of grace.

I'm going to say something now not to offend, but in the hope that most of you will undertand what I lived in the Toronto Movement when it was in its "hay day". I saw many Baptists being Catholic and many Catholics being Baptists...all in a good way. The Baptists needed miracles and gold and the Catholics needed (thirsted for) the Word.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 24, 2011)

Well, you ol canuck, I don't know the Toronto church, but the eloquent picture you paint is of a church that I hope we all can be a part of.  What a great place you discribe.
I want the church where I work to be the very same.

Sometimes, I have difficulty receiving your message.
At other times, your words hit a very sweet note for me.
And this one has.

I thank you.


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## gordon 2 (Aug 24, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Well, you ol canuck, I don't know the Toronto church, but the eloquent picture you paint is of a church that I hope we all can be a part of.  What a great place you discribe.
> I want the church where I work to be the very same.
> 
> Sometimes, I have difficulty receiving your message.
> ...



I don't what to derail this tread so I will be brief. I think the Toronto Church had its better days because the leadership did not recognize its gifts as a movement and attempted to over-reach them. They wanted to be like "other churches" in the end and their season came to an end.

Had they released their Baptists to the Baptists, their Catholics to the Catholics,  their Methodists to the Methodists... we would not be wondering about when will the next great Revival be...because we'd all be on fire...the kind that puts fertalizer in the spiritual soil kind....LOL 

My 02 cents.


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 24, 2011)

pjeremy said:


> I think the greatest evidence we have The Holy spirit, is that He the Spirit is producing His fruit through our lives. I know many well intended Pentecostals who daily speak in other tongues but rarely  produce the fruit of The Spirit found in Galatians 6.
> 
> Pastor Jeremy
> Community Church



What does that even mean?


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## Israel (Aug 25, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What does that even mean?



Probably, in one sense, that only those with eyes to see and hears to hear can recognize the spirit.

There ain't nothin' a man can do to prove to another man God is with him. Even raisin' the dead ain't much of a testimony.

Joh 12:9  Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 
Joh 12:10  But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death; 
Joh 12:11  Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

Or, maybe the professional "god wanters" don't really want God at all.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 25, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> What does that even mean?



“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)


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## Six million dollar ham (Aug 26, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> “But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control.” (Galatians 5:22)



Ah, good.  That explains it thanks.

However, I still don't see how desirable qualities in a person are evidence of a deity though.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 26, 2011)

not sure how I missed this thread, but I'll jump in here...

I was 'saved' when I was like 13....and was filled with the Holy Ghost in a Golden Corral restaurant in '94.   I spoke in tongues for about an hour.  (yes, I left the restaurant  lol)   This may sound strange to some of you...it should....it always did....even in the first century.   "a sign to unbelievers"   Anyway, I have not spoken in tongues since....but it was definitely evidence of the baptism.   

My son was also filled a few weeks back at a camp that he attended.   He had the same experience.    I could stop it....but when I opened my mouth 'words' would explode out!   for over an hour!   Nothing anyone says can ever take that from me!    It was promised to "you, your children, your children's children, as many as are afar off..."    If you don't believe the baptism and associated speaking in tongues is for you or today's church, then guess what?   YOU WONT BE FILLED!    As Jesus said, "As you have believed, so be it unto you"

God filled me that day.   It for all believers, but He won't force it on you.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> not sure how I missed this thread, but I'll jump in here...
> 
> I was 'saved' when I was like 13....and was filled with the Holy Ghost in a Golden Corral restaurant in '94.   I spoke in tongues for about an hour.  (yes, I left the restaurant  lol)   This may sound strange to some of you...it should....it always did....even in the first century.   "a sign to unbelievers"   Anyway, I have not spoken in tongues since....but it was definitely evidence of the baptism.
> 
> ...



I don't doubt that it happened to you. It may not happen to everyone in that way, but I've seen it at least once in my life and I've seen fake many times. But if you ever hear it and it's the real thing, you know that it happens.


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## mtnwoman (Aug 26, 2011)

Six million dollar ham said:


> Ah, good.  That explains it thanks.
> 
> However, I still don't see how desirable qualities in a person are evidence of a deity though.



I don't see all those desirable qualities in people though, do you? Some of them, sometimes, but not all of them at the same time and continuously.


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## M80 (Aug 30, 2011)

Once born again, you instantly recieve the holy ghost.  The day of Penecost they had a firery cloven tongue rest above them and they spake in a way that people of differant languages could understand them.  To me today speaking in tongue's can't happen unless there is an entrepreter according to the bible.  Paul said he would rather say a few words that people could understand rather than say a 1000 that people could not understand. I don't believe if people can speak in tongues that it benefit's no one unless someone could entrepret. It only confusice people.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 31, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> Once born again, you instantly recieve the holy ghost.  The day of Penecost they had a firery cloven tongue rest above them and they spake in a way that people of differant languages could understand them.  To me today speaking in tongue's can't happen unless there is an entrepreter according to the bible.  Paul said he would rather say a few words that people could understand rather than say a 1000 that people could not understand. I don't believe if people can speak in tongues that it benefit's no one unless someone could entrepret. It only confusice people.



So, in your opinion, what do you think happened to my son and me, and lots of other people I know?    (my story is just a few replies down the list)    

In the New Testament, there was always physical evidence when believers were filled.


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## M80 (Aug 31, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, in your opinion, what do you think happened to my son and me, and lots of other people I know?    (my story is just a few replies down the list)
> 
> In the New Testament, there was always physical evidence when believers were filled.



Bandersnatch, not taking nothing away from you.  In Acts, the three times mention speaking in tongues, Acts 2.2, 11.15,and 19.6 it was always served as a sign to the jews who seem slow to believe all that God was doing.  Read 1 Corinthians 13.8, there is no more prophecing, but it says tongues shall cease.  Not for sure in your experiance but look at 1 Corinthians 14 1-40, espicially verse 4,5,6,9,11,12,13,16,19,22,23,24,26,27,28,40.


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## Ronnie T (Aug 31, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> So, in your opinion, what do you think happened to my son and me, and lots of other people I know?    (my story is just a few replies down the list)
> 
> In the New Testament, there was always physical evidence when believers were filled.



Not exactly.
The gift of tongues and other gifts was received at the laying on of the apostles hands.
If I don't forget, I'll give some scriptures tomorrow. But for tonight, I got to hit the sack.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 1, 2011)

LOL   Well, he's still  filling people today with the Holy Ghost...filled me, my son, my wife, and I've seen numerous others filled with the evidence of speaking in tongues.   Your choices are:

God did it.
Satan did it.
some kind of psychotropic drug was involved.

You judge.  I've never ever felt as close to God, or as power-filled, as I did during those hours!   Scripture, even 'common' scripture like John 3:16 was absolutely ALIVE!   My son, when he was filled, praised God throughout the entire night....and was up to 4am with his friends praying and praising God at that camp.    Nothing can take that from us.    You can go your whole life rationalizing why 'it's not for today' or 'it's ceased'....you'll miss out on a great promise that was for "you, your children's children, as many are as afar off".     Are you saying that, for even the Jews that he was speaking to,  the promise is no longer for them?   Or are you saying that it is just some invisible gift (without any evidence at all other than a 'good feeling' inside) that is given when you are saved?

The Jews had already killed Jesus, God's son.   God was not trying to sway them with pouring out the Holy Ghost on Gentiles!    He was inviting all at that point.    Who are Jews according to Paul?    

I believe it's easy to say something has passed when you haven't experienced it yourself.    You can say what you want....I've experienced it...and seen many others who loved the Lord get filled.    

One of the greatest fillings I ever saw was this...   When I was a teenager, one of the girls in our youth group was filled.   She was speaking in tongues, hands lifted to heaven, when the youth left and went out to Pizza Hut to eat, as was our weekly after-evening service habit.    We were gone for about 2 hours.    When we came back to drop off friends, this girl was still at the alter of our church speaking in tongues....they were pouring out of her.   I'll never forget it.   

Thank you, God, for filling me, my son and wife.   The promise is to you, your children, your children's children.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

I don't doubt for one moment that you experienced a very special spiritual moment.  But that doesn't mean it was a baptism with the Holy Spirit.  What you experienced doesn't even have to be identified; except to say that you were drawn closer to God.
Enjoy those times when they come.  But I hope you won't make the mistake that some make.  Don't make those moments the hallmark of your life.  All of God's children have the Holy Spirit living within them.  Not all people experience the same things.  At least that's what Paul said.

The subject of the thread is "evidence of the Holy Spirit".  Dozens of times the N.T. tells that because of the power of God within us, we'll begin life anew.  Our thinking will change.  Our habits will change.  Our purposes in life will change.  We will seek to live life the way Jesus lived life.  That's the evidence of the Holy Spirit.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 1, 2011)

When my mouth opened, tongues poured out.   I wasn't speaking english....    Much much more than a "special spiritual moment".    If that's all it was I'd have been praising God in english.   No reason for it to have been another language if it wasn't the baptism.    mimics exactly what happened in Acts.    Physical evidence accompanied the baptism.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 1, 2011)

Soooo....does the HS only fill you at certain times and so you see the manifestations? 

I'm confused.  Are we not to be filled with the HS....all the time?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 1, 2011)

What does the NT say about the baptism in the Holy ghost?

There was something going on that was visible.   'these are not drunk as ye suppose"


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## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2011)

We are all one body in this, perhaps: 

 Some of us are poor in the spirit, others mourn, others are meek, and others gentle, others are thirsting for what is right and just, some have pure and innocent hearts, some don't, some have been broken for doing what is right, some wish they could forgive and forget, some wish they could be forgiven, even forgiving their own selves, some pray for peace and are abused and persecuted.

Now if Jesus heals a person how does he do it? From a bit of his garment? ( Icon) From a finger? ( The commandments?) From an arm?(For a denomination?) From two arms? ( From the cross?) From his whole body? (The church?)

Will the gentle recieve the same evidence as the abused and persecuted? Those who mourn? will they recieve the same evidence as of the broken?

I think this is one case where we must look to the real Jesus  and real people and not the punctuations of scripture.



Now speaking in tongues (this kind of praise and prayer) is not unique to christians. Mankind prays in tongues in many spiritual traditions. What is interesting is that Christ would build up his body this way. Why?

I will suggest something here that is from myself, from my observations. Tongues spoken in the Holy Spirit are they not tolerance builder for all the words that bewildered and were crushing in the past and would otherwise be in the future?  For example, if you were an impatient person in the past, I suggest that you will be more patient now for the evidence of the Holy Spirit that was revealed to you in tongues via you own voice! You will be patient of what? You will be patient of other people's words and the voices of others, how they use words, how they dance around words, how they can't and can cut loose with the Spirit without checking and double checking the Word, and the words of doctrines, and the words of words...etc. For tongues many will see the hearts of others... and minister to them according the the will of God.

In my case the evidence of the Spirit was given to me on an occation as a very pleasing Fragrance? My tolerance for the "stink" of living is very high ever since. You see from childhood I had been told to be good and doing as per the Christ, but after 15-20ys of early adulthood, being good and doing as per Christ, got me dissilutioned and severely depressed---basically broken. The world was basically killing me and in someways it had. And then the perfumes that were destined to fragrance my Lord's tomb filled my nostrils... and I raised from my grave and have been to the One that loved me ever since. My spiritual center and my moral compass has been rock solid ever since. I turn to God, and not the world. God is never discouraging.


My point is that Jesus heals a man's ears if he is deaf. He heals a tongue twisted man or persons by untwisting it or making its stutter, once a lemon to lemonaid. If a person has had no childhood, it will be given him if it is that person's healing. etc... And this is how strength is given to the faithful,  who both work in the church and in the world. In a spiritual tradition that emphasises that salvation is for the words of the mouth that confess Jesus, God has good cause to sharpen tongues and heal all the wounds caused by words that don't square up with  His justice.


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## Huntinfool (Sep 1, 2011)

> What does the NT say about the baptism in the Holy ghost?



Don't know off the top of my head.  I'm interested though.  If you've got time, post it up.  I've got a ton to do today at work 'cause we're leaving for a camping trip tomorrow.  But if you've got time, I'd love to hear what you have to say about it.

I'll be honest and give full disclosure....right now I fall on the side of those who are saying that there are certain gifts and signs that no longer happened after a certain point in the NT.  But I'm willing to listen.

I suppose part of my belief is just personal experience.  I've never seen a single person authentically speak in tongues.  I've seen a bunch who were clearly NOT filled and just doing something stupid (and looking it as well).

So I'm sure that clouds me a little.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 1, 2011)

lol    I'm no expert on the subject; just was filled and seen others filled.   Gonna be hard pressed to find people legitimately filled in a church that doesn't believe in it or lay hands on people for it.   

I'll give it some thought and post my response later.   All this discussion has had me thinking about Acts...and the experience of others.

Something I wanted to say....

We are all brothers in Christ, and I take no offense to your questions or anything you may say.   I understand that it may seem strange to you.   Was always meant to be.

Something I wanted to ask...

Do any of you guys have close friends who are Pentecostal or attend a Pentecostal church?    It might be good to ask them if they know of anyone who "supposedly" was baptised in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues.....and see if it is similar to what I explain.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    I'm no expert on the subject; just was filled and seen others filled.   Gonna be hard pressed to find people legitimately filled in a church that doesn't believe in it or lay hands on people for it.
> 
> I'll give it some thought and post my response later.   All this discussion has had me thinking about Acts...and the experience of others.
> 
> ...



I'm no expert on the subject; just was filled and seen others filled.   Gonna be hard pressed to find people legitimately filled in a church that doesn't believe in it or lay hands on people for it. 

The evidence these will take away is that once in a while someone in that church, physically in that church building, will "see" and the healing of that one blind person will be sufficient for the faith of all. The blind hear very well usually.

Amazing grace how sweet the sound
that saved a wretched like me.
I once was lost but now I'm found,
was Blind but now I see.


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## formula1 (Sep 1, 2011)

*Re:*

I posted what I believe the Word leads us to back in Post #7, so I'll try not to rehash that.

What I will say is this, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit comes in many different forms in the life of a believer. That is held as true in all of scripture.  It is also for all believers till He comes again.  And I absolutely reject cessationist thoughts as false doctrine, leading people away from the Power of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit that are available to those who will receive them and allow the Holy Spirit to use them as He sees fit.

I'm with Bandersnatch on this one.  His and his son's experience are very real and is backed by scripture. You can try to explain it away, but you can't. The evidence is all over the place in Acts, 1 Cor, Mark and the other gospels, and even in Isaiah. Men limit its scope all the time, but not God.

It is also very real to me, having had the same experience in 1982 (June 9th), when I was a Baptist in a very traditional church(I still am Baptist), of all things.  It caught me completely by surprise.  I went to 3 folks to confirm this in me that I could trust, and discussion with a pentecostal lady I knew would understand, a discussion with the Youth leader at my Baptist church, and a discussion with my baptist Pastor at the time. All three confirmed the validity of the experience, both in scripture and with their own experience (yes their own experience). Two of the three are now with the Lord, and the third is a Baptist pastor somewhere in ATL area in a great church today.  It is a very real experience that I could not deny even if I wanted to.

The errors though I made after this 'experience' were horrendous. From leaving the Baptist church, and going to several Pentecostal and Charistmatic churches thinking I needed to be with those in like mind, to thinking as many Pentecostals still do that the BHS is clear evidence of salvation, to believing it had to be passed to others by Step 1,2,3 etc., to experiencing some very strange happenings, some real and many counterfeit, and on and on. I returned full circle now to the Baptist folks whom I love and honor, yet I would tell any of them, even the most traditional, to never count the Gifts and the BHS as null and void, and embrace and Love the believer, whatever their experience.
It is toward that end that I shaped my thoughts in Post #7.

I'm not asking you to accept nor believe my own experience. Frankly, I do not care. The only thing I would ever ask of any of you is to Love Jesus with all of your heart and Love others. See to it you complete your calling in Christ and desire all He has for you in this age, not just for your benefit, but for benefit and service to others, that will lead them to life in Christ! If you do that, you will be filled beyond measure with Power from the Holy Spirit and in whatever way or method or gift the Holy Spirit desires for you! Hunger and thrist for Christ. Please!!!

God bless and never lose focus on your love for Jesus!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> I posted what I believe the Word leads us to back in Post #7, so I'll try not to rehash that.
> 
> What I will say is this, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit comes in many different forms in the life of a believer. That is held as true in all of scripture.  It is also for all believers till He comes again.  And I absolutely reject cessationist thoughts as false doctrine, leading people away from the Power of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit that are available to those who will receive them and allow the Holy Spirit to use them as He sees fit.
> 
> ...





Your experience seems to mirror my experience. I have always found it interesting that many, in charismatic services that were healed or recieved evidence of the Holy Spirit, always would come back for  healing, not only the 2ed time, but the 50th time. They were what I suspected as suffering from  spiritual hypochondriasis.

A friend of mine who studied charismatic movements  within the catholic church through out the centuries said that the movements never lasted for very long and were never incorporated as part of the greater church.

I like to think of the charismatic movement with its evidences of the Holy Spirit as mission churches. The mission is a healing one. The followers are supposed to re-seed their ordinary church with their new vigour. This is what you have done.... and it seems to me  that your "instincts" to return to the Baptish were just.
Now this is not because the Pentacostals are not just! Someone has to keep the wine press in good order.


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## formula1 (Sep 1, 2011)

*Re:*

Gordon, thank you! 

I have truly loved my return to my Baptist roots and hope that God will use me as He wishes to bless others in the fold day by day! Grace and Peace be to you in Jesus Christ!


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

Is there any place in God's word that tells us that speaking in tongues is evidence of one having the Holy Spirit and that if anyone doesn't have the speaking in tongue then they don't have the Holy Spirit to the extent that the one who does does?
Is there any place in the Bible that speaks to this?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

Eph 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called, 2 with all humility and gentleness, with patience, showing tolerance for one another in love, 3 being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all who is over all and through all and in all. 

In Acts 1 Jesus had some things to say to His apostles:
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.” 
The apostles would receive the power to become Jesus' witnesses in all Judea and Samaria

In Acts 2 it happens.
2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance. 

Other than Cornelius, I don't know of anyone else any place in the New Testament church that received the Holy Spirit in the way the apostles received it.

There are many, many occasions when a person or group of persons were baptized in water.  During that New Testament water baptism they received the gift of the Holy Spirit.  After that baptism and receiving the gift of the Spirit, an apostles could lay their hands on the person or group of persons and give them special gifts of the Holy Spirit.  But no place does it say that they were "baptized" in the Holy Spirit.


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## formula1 (Sep 1, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Is there any place in God's word that tells us that speaking in tongues is evidence of one having the Holy Spirit and that if anyone doesn't have the speaking in tongue then they don't have the Holy Spirit to the extent that the one who does does?
> Is there any place in the Bible that speaks to this?


.

To your question, yes to the first half of it and no to the second half. The bible clearly speaks about Power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and that is the evidence. You know this! The question is, 'How do we define 'Power'? And how do we know Power rest in us as believers?

Just saw your next post and I will answer you shortly on that one too.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

formula1 said:


> .
> 
> To your question, yes to the first half of it and no to the second half. The bible clearly speaks about Power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you and that is the evidence. You know this! The question is, 'How do we define 'Power'? And how do we know Power rest in us as believers?
> 
> Just saw your next post and I will answer you shortly on that one too.



There's actually 3 questions in #57.


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## formula1 (Sep 1, 2011)

*Re:*

1) 'one Lord one faith one baptism'
Mark 1
4 John appeared, baptizing in the wilderness and proclaiming a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 Now John was clothed with camel’s hair and wore a leather belt around his waist and ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And he preached, saying, "After me comes he who is mightier than I, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I have baptized you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Luke 3:16
 John answered them all, saying, "I baptize you with water, but he who is mightier than I is coming, the strap of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 

John 1:33
 I myself did not know him, but he who sent me to baptize with water said to me, 'He on whom you see the Spirit descend and remain, this is he who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.' 

So you see then, at least two separate baptisms are mentioned, one of water and one of the Holy Spirit! Now the question I ask you to think on is this,
Who was the audience that John was speaking too?

2) I don't think it is appropriate to look at Acts 1 and Acts 2 separately, nor do I think you should limit your application to apostles only. And the reason I say this is:
Acts 2
37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 And Peter said to them,(C) "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself."

Were it not for this pesky little scripture, I would have to agree with you that there was an apostolic limitation. But it's there for a reason and if God did not want the Power of the Holy Spirit for all believers, he would not say so!

3) Glad you mentioned Cornelius! Who was he?
Acts 10 
1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, 2 a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God.

A roman soldier and a Gentile! Not an Apostle! And who spoke in tongues when they were filled?
Acts 10:24 And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. 
Acts 10
44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Interesting to note they were baptised in Water after they were baptised in the Holy Spirit.  And 2 Baptisms again! Yes semantics, the word used is the Holy Spirit fell and then they were baptised in Jesus name. Yet in the light of these scriptures, Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:8, Luke 3:16, John 1:33, what else do you think he is speaking of? 

Brother Ronnie, you know how much I care for you and respect you in the Lord. Can you then see that I am searching the scripture for these truths, not accepting anything at face value, but truly studying and searching?  I am not looking at this piece or that one, but context of the whole of scripture!

More questions? I'll do my best!


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## formula1 (Sep 1, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> There's actually 3 questions in #57.



I considered the 3rd question a 'rephrasing' of the first two. No place in scripture speaks of both together!


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

Concerning the "one Lord, one faith, one baptism" I've always considered that 'baptism' to be the baptism of the great commission.  The baptism of Acts 2:38; Acts 2:41;  Acts 8:12; Acts 8:13; Acts 8:16; Acts 8:38; Acts 9:13; Acts 10:48; Acts 16:15;
Acts 16:33; Acts 18:8; Acts 19:3-5(interesting scripture); Acts 22:16; Romans 6:3-4: 1Cor 1:13-17; Gal 3:27; Eph 4:5; Col 2:12; 1Peter 3:21  all of these verses are speaking of the baptism of the great commission.  "Baptizing people in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit".  

*In Acts 1, Jesus told His apostles they would be baptized by the Holy Spirit.  In Acts 2 they were.  From that point forward, historically, I don't believe the Bible refers to anyone being baptized by the Holy Spirit again.

*Now, in the case of Cornelius, Peter was shocked to see what happened to Cornelius and the others.  It was as though Peter had never seen it happen to anyone other than himself and the other apostles as it did in Acts 2.

In Acts 11, back in Jerusalem, Peter explains his observances at Cornelius' house.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16 And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ 17 Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?” 18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

There are some other verses in N.T. that speak of baptism other than water...................

1 Corinthians 15:29
Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?    (Big ??????? for me on this verse)

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
I don't believe this verse speaks of water or Holy Spirit baptism but rather is saying that as the body of man, though composed of many members, is informed and influenced by one soul; so the Christ's church, which is his body, though composed of many members, is informed and influenced by one Spirit, the Holy Ghost; actuating and working by his spiritual body, as the human soul does in the body of man.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

And know this formula, when you and I discuss our Lord's Word, we both win.  And maybe along the way I'll learn something.

I love you brother.

I hesitate to say that on the open forum cause Huntinfool might give me a hard time about saying it.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 1, 2011)

Here's another verse that just crossed my mind concerning the special nature of Jesus' apostles.

The apostles had received the Holy Spirit prior to Acts 2.

John 20:22 "And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”


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## M80 (Sep 1, 2011)

KJV.  1 Corinthians 14. 2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. v5.  I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret that the church may receive edifying.  v9.  So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?  for ye shall speak into the air. v 13.  Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknow tongue pray that he may interpret.  v 16.  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at the thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?  v. 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.  v. 27.  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course: and let one interpret.  v 28  But if there be no interpreter , let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.                      All I can give ya'll is what the Bible says.  In the book of Acts speaking in tongues was a sign to the Jews of what God was doing, theyed understood what they were saying in there on language.   Words not understood confuses people so according to Corinthians 14, you need a interpreter, if not keep silence, and talk to himself and God.  There is alot to learn in 1 Corth. 14 about tongues.  Remember fellows it's all about edifying or Lord!!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Is there any place in God's word that tells us that speaking in tongues is evidence of one having the Holy Spirit and that if anyone doesn't have the speaking in tongue then they don't have the Holy Spirit to the extent that the one who does does?
> Is there any place in the Bible that speaks to this?



LOL   I see you edited your post to eliminate the words that showed your frustration!   lol    Honestly, this discussion shouldn't (IMO) frustrate anyone.    I think there may be some confusion as to what the differences in the initial baptism and the 'spirit filled life' with it's fruits are.

All I know is this....I was baptized in the Holy Ghost, and spoke 'in tongues' (that's the best words I can use, as I didn't know the words/sounds that were coming out, and I wasn't putting thought into what was being spoken) but I've never done it since....AND I ATTEND A PENTECOSTAL CHURCH!!    Surely if I believed tongues were part of the salvation plan then I'd still be doing it...or at least faking it.  I believe you are just as saved with or without the baptism.   (and, no, I don't believe the baptism is given invisibly at salvation.  maybe the spirit 'in a measure', but not filled)

Anyway, I'll leave you guys to debate it.   When I was filled I spoke in tongues, as did those in Acts.    That's all I know.  

Blame it on the devil if you want (you may not be saying it, but if it wasn't from God, then who do you think did it to me and the numerous others that have been filled since the 1st century?)

...to you, your children, your childrens children, as many as are afar off.....


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## formula1 (Sep 2, 2011)

*Re:*

Wow, Ronnie!  Thanks for reading forward to Acts 11. I do appreciate you and your openess to the scriptures and to the searching of the same for truth!  I think you understand better than I ever imagined!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> KJV.  1 Corinthians 14. 2  For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. v5.  I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret that the church may receive edifying.  v9.  So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken?  for ye shall speak into the air. v 13.  Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknow tongue pray that he may interpret.  v 16.  Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at the thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?  v. 19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.  v. 27.  If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course: and let one interpret.  v 28  But if there be no interpreter , let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.                      All I can give ya'll is what the Bible says.  In the book of Acts speaking in tongues was a sign to the Jews of what God was doing, theyed understood what they were saying in there on language.   Words not understood confuses people so according to Corinthians 14, you need a interpreter, if not keep silence, and talk to himself and God.  There is alot to learn in 1 Corth. 14 about tongues.  Remember fellows it's all about edifying or Lord!!



Speaking in tongues from the baptism of the Holy Spirit for those who need healing is a healing in my view, it is the sound of a branch rustling in the wind and being grafted onto the tree of life, it is a moment of intimate communion, and not as the predication of apostles or the call to repentance or the prophesies of prophets. It is not a gift other than grace.

The apostles did not need healing when they recieved the gift of tongues. They needed resources, gifts, talents etc... This gift ( the gift of tongues in their case) was not a healing, but rather it gave to God's people His fire and this fire was to ignite the world--all the known world, the gentile world and beyond.

From experience this is my observation...however I have no scripture to back this up...so...grain of salt time....

John's baptism: did it come from heaven, or from man? Matthew 21:25

The human tongue can be tamed by no man. James  1:26

Therefore my heart rejoiced and my tongue exulted exceedingly; Acts 2:26

exult: to leap up.

For God has given me the tongue of disciples Isa 50:4

The tongue that soothes is a tree of life;
   the barbed tongue, a breaker of hearts. Proverbs 15:4

" You are the men who have stood by me faithfully in my trials; and now I confer a kingdom on you, just as my Father conferred one on me: you will eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Isreal. Luke 22:28-30

My mouth shall tell of Your righteous acts and of Your deeds of salvation all day, for their number is more than I know. Psalm 71:15

Yes, I will then give the peoples lips that are clean, so that all may invoke the name of Yahweh and serve him under the same yoke. Zeph 4:9


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL   I see you edited your post to eliminate the words that showed your frustration!   lol    Honestly, this discussion shouldn't (IMO) frustrate anyone.    I think there may be some confusion as to what the differences in the initial baptism and the 'spirit filled life' with it's fruits are.
> 
> All I know is this....I was baptized in the Holy Ghost, and spoke 'in tongues' (that's the best words I can use, as I didn't know the words/sounds that were coming out, and I wasn't putting thought into what was being spoken) but I've never done it since....AND I ATTEND A PENTECOSTAL CHURCH!!    Surely if I believed tongues were part of the salvation plan then I'd still be doing it...or at least faking it.  I believe you are just as saved with or without the baptism.   (and, no, I don't believe the baptism is given invisibly at salvation.  maybe the spirit 'in a measure', but not filled)
> 
> ...



Believe me, there's no frustration in discussing and sharing the Word with folks that love it as much as I do.
I do believe you're incorrect in assuming that what happened with you is the very things that happened to the apostles in Acts 2.

The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit in order that God's work and Christ's church might be established as God had purposed.  The apostles received great power and great opportunities to share the gospel because of their baptism with the Holy Spirit.

A person today who says they've received the gift of tongues thru baptism of Holy Spirit have not received what the apostles did.  For the apostles spoke in different languages, and they spoke words of instruction that the hearer could clearly understand, and they spoke God's will.

I don't doubt that you didn't experience something.  I've experienced many things myself.  But I don't believe you were baptized with the Holy Spirit as the apostles were.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

Lots of people baptized in the Holy Ghost other than the apostles....and thank God that included Gentiles! (me)  Acts 10.

In Acts 10, the Gentiles were baptized in the Holy Ghost...and it wasn't just as a sign to the Jews...it was to show (and fulfill prophecy that all flesh would be poured out on) that all were now accepted with God, if they believed in Jesus.    

Not sure why you think just the apostles were filled?


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## formula1 (Sep 2, 2011)

*Re:*

The apostles were the first to receive the Holy Spirit baptism.  They were not the last and that is proven in scripture (Acts 10,11, 19, the corinthians and on and on on and on until today(again acts 2:39 with the context of Acts1 and 2)).

Also they did not believe it was limited to themselves only.

Acts 15
7 And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, 9 and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

formula1 said:


> ... and he made no distinction between us and them...



amen!   thank you, Lord!


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

Okay then.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Believe me, there's no frustration in discussing and sharing the Word with folks that love it as much as I do.
> I do believe you're incorrect in assuming that what happened with you is the very things that happened to the apostles in Acts 2.
> 
> The apostles were baptized with the Holy Spirit in order that God's work and Christ's church might be established as God had purposed.  The apostles received great power and great opportunities to share the gospel because of their baptism with the Holy Spirit.
> ...




And He went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, proclaiming the Good News of the Kingdom and curing all kinds of diseases and sickness.Matthew 4: 23

Then Abraham fell on his face and laughed and said in his heart, Shall a child be born to a man who is a hundred years old? And shall Sarah, who is ninety years old, bear a son? Genesis 17:17

He will yet fill your mouth with laughter
 and your lips with joyful shouting. Job 8:21

A good name is better than precious perfume, and the day of death better than the day of one's birth. Ecclesiasties 7:1

And Jesus said to him, Go your way; your faith has healed you. And at once he recieved his sight and accompanied Jesus on the road. Mark 10:52


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## M80 (Sep 2, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Lots of people baptized in the Holy Ghost other than the apostles....and thank God that included Gentiles! (me)  Acts 10.
> 
> In Acts 10, the Gentiles were baptized in the Holy Ghost...and it wasn't just as a sign to the Jews...it was to show (and fulfill prophecy that all flesh would be poured out on) that all were now accepted with God, if they believed in Jesus.
> 
> Not sure why you think just the apostles were filled?



KJV 1 corinthians 12v13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whetherwe be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.     Every born again person is baptized  with the holy ghost once saved.  I was filled with the holy ghost the very moment God entered my heart.  I understand when the psalmist writes "My Cup runneth over".   Mr. Bandersnatch could you please explain to me what 1 Corth.  14v5,12,13,27-28


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

Agree.
All receive the Holy Spirit when they respond, in faith, to the Gospel.
Acts 2:38.  "be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Agree.
> All receive the Holy Spirit when they respond, in faith, to the Gospel.
> Acts 2:38.  "be baptized and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit".



Bingo! Took alot of grapeshot.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

*Paul questions John's disciples*

*Here’s something else to ponder.
It comes from Acts 19.
Paul is involved in the spreading of the Gospel.  Luke isn’t providing us a lot of doctrinal details of Paul’s travels and teachings, and then we get to Acts 19.

Paul meets a dozen disciples.  Strangely, Paul asked them an unusual question that’s totally out of character for Luke’s, and the Holy Spirit’s, writings.
Paul asked them:  ““Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”.
They replied:  ““No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 
Paul responded:  “ “Into what then were you baptized?” 
They said, “Into John’s baptism.” 

Paul then stated:  ““John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 

Luke then writes:  “5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 

*So these disciples of John were baptized into the name of Jesus, just as the people were in Acts 2.  One has to assume they were baptized so they would receive the Holy Spirit just as those did in Acts 2:38.  As they were baptized, they received the Holy Spirit.

But then, when all that is completed for these 12 disciples, Luke says that Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying 

*Why didn’t they receive the gift of speaking other languages and proclaim the Gospel of Jesus without having to be touched by Paul’s hand?

-I’ve always considered this to be one of the most unusual incidences’ of  Paul’s ministry.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> KJV 1 corinthians 12v13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whetherwe be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.     Every born again person is baptized  with the holy ghost once saved.  I was filled with the holy ghost the very moment God entered my heart.  I understand when the psalmist writes "My Cup runneth over".   Mr. Bandersnatch could you please explain to me what 1 Corth.  14v5,12,13,27-28



lol    no sure when God started filling people with the Holy Ghost the moment they ask Him in, because He didn't fill the Gentiles in Acts 10 when they believed.    Nowhere in scripture does it say God quit having a seperate baptism and began giving it as a combo with salvation.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> *Here’s something else to ponder.
> It comes from Acts 19.
> Paul is involved in the spreading of the Gospel.  Luke isn’t providing us a lot of doctrinal details of Paul’s travels and teachings, and then we get to Acts 19.
> 
> ...



Couldn't agree more, RT.   For one, this shows that the baptism wasn't an invisible thing that happens when we are saved, but was a seperate event.   The baptism in the Holy Ghost, as depicted here, was also accompanied by a 'sign'...something noticeable to others.    Tongues.   

Laying on of hands was definitely how the baptism was imparted in several instances, but in other instances believers were baptised 'as he spoke'.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> KJV 1 corinthians 12v13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whetherwe be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.     Every born again person is baptized  with the holy ghost once saved.  I was filled with the holy ghost the very moment God entered my heart.  I understand when the psalmist writes "My Cup runneth over".   Mr. Bandersnatch could you please explain to me what 1 Corth.  14v5,12,13,27-28



I Cor 14 is talking about the gift of tongues.   we are discussing the baptism.    two entirely different subjects.   I have not spoken in tongues since my baptism.   I do not believe that all believers, even believers baptised in the Holy Ghost, will have the gift of tongues...and be able to pray in tongues at any given time.    There is a baptism in the Holy Ghost, and there was a gift....like prophecy or healing.     Paul himself says, "do all speak in tongues?"   Obviously the inference was 'NO'.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Couldn't agree more, RT.   For one, this shows that the baptism wasn't an invisible thing that happens when we are saved, but was a seperate event.   The baptism in the Holy Ghost, as depicted here, was also accompanied by a 'sign'...something noticeable to others. Tongues.
> 
> Laying on of hands was definitely how the baptism was imparted in several instances, but in other instances believers were baptised 'as he spoke'.



You keep mentioning the baptism in the Holy Ghost.  The Bible doesn't mention such a baptism after Acts 2!  But it mentions water baptism well over a dozen times.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I Cor 14 is talking about the gift of tongues.   we are discussing the baptism.    two entirely different subjects.   I have not spoken in tongues since my baptism.   I do not believe that all believers, even believers baptised in the Holy Ghost, will have the gift of tongues...and be able to pray in tongues at any given time.    There is a baptism in the Holy Ghost, and there was a gift....like prophecy or healing.     Paul himself says, "do all speak in tongues?"   Obviously the inference was 'NO'.



But if you've received Holy Spirit baptism as the apostles did, why can't you speak in tongues any time?  
And why don't you have words of enlightenment for others to hear when you spoke in tongues?  The apostles did.  
Would a person have to be re-baptized in the Holy Spirit each time they speak in 'tongue'?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

Another verse for consideration.

Acts 8:18 Now when Simon saw that the Spirit was bestowed through the laying on of the apostles’ hands, he offered them money, 19 saying, “Give this authority to me as well, so that everyone on whom I lay my hands may receive the Holy Spirit.” 20 But Peter said to him, “May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

Acts 14:3
 Therefore they spent a long time there speaking boldly with reliance upon the Lord, who was testifying to the word of His grace, granting that signs and wonders be done by their hands.

And notice this:  it is not referred to as a "baptism", because there's only one baptism in Christ's church.  Romans 6 discribes that baptism.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2011)

Paul himself was healed from blindness and filled by the Holy Spirit by a man called Ananie a disciple who imposed his hands on Paul.  We know that this man was a disciple and was called by the Lord in a vision to heal Paul back to sight. It says that Paul was praying and saw that a man named Ananie was entering to see him and impose his hands in order to give Paul sight. Acts 9:10-19

Ananie did. Paul's vision was restored and the Holy Spirit filled him. And from there Paul went from place to place preaching and spreading the words of the Good News.

I gather that what is important about the laying of the hands here is not the laying of the hands per say, but what they do and from what authority is declared as they minister with powers.


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## M80 (Sep 2, 2011)

Mr. Bandersnatch, you still didn't answer my question.  You have told of the experiance where you spoke in tongues.  The Bible specifcally says you need a interpreter or you will confuse people.  In the resturant, did you have an interpreter so that the lord would be edified like the Bible says in 1 Corinth. 14.  You said you was baptized with the Holy Ghost there. What do you think about needing an interpreter will you was speaking in tongues.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2011)

mwilliams80 said:


> Mr. Bandersnatch, you still didn't answer my question.  You have told of the experiance where you spoke in tongues.  The Bible specifcally says you need a interpreter or you will confuse people.  In the resturant, did you have an interpreter so that the lord would be edified like the Bible says in 1 Corinth. 14.  You said you was baptized with the Holy Ghost there. What do you think about needing an interpreter will you was speaking in tongues.



I'm gona answer this for better or for worse... He would have needed an interpreter if he had made out his speaking in tongue to minister to others as in preaching or prophecy.  However,his speaking in tongues was God's ministry to him and not the gentleman's ministry to a congragation.

Paul is talking about speaking in tongues in an assembly of saints who are being informed by the gifts of that assembly. He says ok speak in tongues but have an interpreter, because we are hear to build up the believers--the body. 

In the case of speaking in tongues as described by the gentleman, it had the purpose no different than lifting the scales off of Paul's eyes when Paul was filled with the Holy Spirit. 

Two different things. Apples-Oranges.

Paul was given sight and admitted he was a poor speaker. Mr. Bandersnatch is a good speaker...because his words are plain, because his witness is honest. I was given a nose, and to poke it in God's business.


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## M80 (Sep 2, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> lol    no sure when God started filling people with the Holy Ghost the moment they ask Him in, because He didn't fill the Gentiles in Acts 10 when they believed.    Nowhere in scripture does it say God quit having a seperate baptism and began giving it as a combo with salvation.



Do you think everyone will be baptized with the Holy Ghost?  1 Corinth. 12v13 clearly states ALL.  When we are born again we ALL recieved the baptism of the spirit.  Flesh is not saved only the inner man Paul rights about in Romans 7.  Therefore whoever we feed the most;  Flesh would be things of this world vs.  feed the soul;  Prayer, reading our Bible, meditating on what the lord has done for me.  When i think of what I am and what the Lord has done for me I get beside my self and get filled with the Holy Ghost.  He lives in my heart, ya'lls heart too, but when we allow him and get our heart right with the Lord, have no unconfesed sin in our heart, that's when this filling of the holy ghost comes so real in our lifes.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 2, 2011)

Guys, lets break down all the misconceptions I’ve straightened out for you ….

1)	Baptism wasn’t just for Jews     Acts 10
2)	Baptism didn’t come just from laying on of hands  Acts 10
3)	Baptism of Acts 2 was the same as in Acts 10
4)	What happened in Acts 2 was promised for endless generations.  “as many are afar off”  (yet to hear one of you address what he meant by that) 
5)	Believers spoke in tongues in Acts 10 without an interpreter  (this was baptism…not gift)  The whole room of people were already listening to Peter (all present were of the same language) and obviously spoke another language when they were filled
6)	Baptism wasn’t something that happened at salvation   Acts 19:2    Why would Paul ask if they had received the baptism if it was just an automatic thing at salvation?   Obviously, it wasn’t a combo pack!
7)	The prophesied “you shall be baptized in the holy ghost not many days hence” of Acts 1:5 was fulfilled with a “they were all filled with the Holy Ghost” in Acts 2.   Obviously here, the ‘baptism’ and the ‘filling’ were one and the same.     In Acts 11 the apostles describe the filling of the believers in Cornelius’ house as the same as when it fell  on them in Acts 2.  “as on us in the beginning”.     Another baptism, obviously.   


Why do y’all fight this so hard?   Do you think it’s corrupting someone out there?   Lol  I was baptized just like we read about in Acts.    The Holy Ghost fell on believers in Acts 10:44 “while Peter yet spake”, and it fell on me while my wife and I were “yet speaking” about the Lord in the restaurant.      Why can’t you just be happy for me and all those who have been baptized as I have been throughout history?     If I correct you on another point will you believe?     John  9:27

I really think that you should pray about it and ask the Lord to open your eyes concerning the baptism.    There was always evidence of the infilling.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 2, 2011)

And the whole earth was of one language and of one accent and mode of expression. Genesis 11:1

Note it says the "whole earth" and this was after Noah. And then they said to one another lets makes bricks and a tower and for this speaking in tongues has been an issue ever since. But it should not be. In Jesus we have even better than Noah, we have Noah and God.


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## M80 (Sep 2, 2011)

Thank's for the reply, I guess we just see it in diff. ways.  I am happy for you and never want to argue, Im not at all, only curious.  I love the Lord and it's very clear to me you do also.  Hope ya'll have a great service Sunday.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Paul himself was healed from blindness and filled by the Holy Spirit by a man called Ananie a disciple who imposed his hands on Paul.  We know that this man was a disciple and was called by the Lord in a vision to heal Paul back to sight. It says that Paul was praying and saw that a man named Ananie was entering to see him and impose his hands in order to give Paul sight. Acts 9:10-19
> 
> Ananie did. Paul's vision was restored and the Holy Spirit filled him. And from there Paul went from place to place preaching and spreading the words of the Good News.
> 
> I gather that what is important about the laying of the hands here is not the laying of the hands per say, but what they do and from what authority is declared as they minister with powers.



Additionally, who empowered that man, and his hand, to give the gifts by the laying on of his hand?


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> I'm gona answer this for better or for worse... He would have needed an interpreter if he had made out his speaking in tongue to minister to others as in preaching or prophecy.  However,his speaking in tongues was God's ministry to him and not the gentleman's ministry to a congragation.
> 
> Paul is talking about speaking in tongues in an assembly of saints who are being informed by the gifts of that assembly. He says ok speak in tongues but have an interpreter, because we are hear to build up the believers--the body.
> 
> ...



But here's a serious question for you.
What makes you so sure that Bro. Bandersnatch was actually baptized with the Holy Spirit?
Is it because he says he was?
Shouldn't he merely accept what occurred to him without claiming that he received the baptism of the Spirit that the apostles received?
He cannot know that.  He cannot know that.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 2, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Guys, lets break down all the misconceptions I’ve straightened out for you ….
> 
> 1)	Baptism wasn’t just for Jews     Acts 10
> 2)	Baptism didn’t come just from laying on of hands  Acts 10
> ...



Everytime you used the word baptism above you've used it as though you were speaking of New Testament baptism.  But Holy Spirit baptism is NOT the New Testament baptism.

Listen carefully please.  The baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 is New Testament "water" baptism.  Water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism.  
From Acts 2:38 thru the rest of God's word, the word "baptism" is always referring to the water baptism as discribed in Romans 6.  Not Holy Spirit Baptism. (with one or two exceptions)

Acts 10 and 11 never ever say that Cornelius was "baptized" with the Holy Spirit.  It only says that he received the Spirit and spoke in tongue.  In Chap 11, Peter didn't say Cornelius had been "baptized" with the H.S. as the other apostles had.  Peter only said that what he say in Cornelius had reminded Peter of Pentacost.

Again, in Acts 2:38  Peter was commanding them to be baptized in water, for the forgiveness of their sins and at that time they would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
All Christians, upon water baptism into Christ, receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.  That forgiveness and indwelling of the Holy Spirit is promised to all people of all the future, no matter their nationality.  But it was not speaking of H.S. baptism.

I say again, once you pass Acts 2:38, from that point on "baptism" refers to the baptism of the great commission.  Water baptism.

You said:  Why can’t you just be happy for me and all those who have been baptized as I have been throughout history?
I've already stated that I'm happy for you and I know how it must have affected you.  It is not unusual for spiritual people to have spiritual experiences that touch them and draw them closer to God.
But it doesn't mean you've been baptized with the H.S. like the apostles were.

Now, I've read every word you've written.  I hope you've done the same for my comments here.

And please, I wish God's blessings and peace to you brother.  This is not a subject that stresses me a lot.  Honestly, it has little affect on my life if you believe one way or another.  
For me, it's just a discussion of scriptures.

I wish we could sit across from each other with a cup of coffee rather than this keyboard.


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## M80 (Sep 2, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Everytime you used the word baptism above you've used it as though you were speaking of New Testament baptism.  But Holy Spirit baptism is NOT the New Testament baptism.
> 
> Listen carefully please.  The baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 is New Testament "water" baptism.  Water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism.
> From Acts 2:38 thru the rest of God's word, the word "baptism" is always referring to the water baptism as discribed in Romans 6.  Not Holy Spirit Baptism. (with one or two exceptions)
> ...



Water baptism has nothing to do with recieving the Holy Ghost.  Water baptism is only an outward expression to the church symbolizing you was saved.  Romans 10v9-13


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## Israel (Sep 3, 2011)

Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 
Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. 
Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 
Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 
Act 2:8  And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? 
Act 2:9  Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, 
Act 2:10  Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, 
Act 2:11  Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God. 
Act 2:12  And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 

Was the miracle in the mouth of the speakers? Or in the ears of the hearers?

Both?

God is even able to make otherwise unintelligible speech plainly known. And likewise, words of wisdom...seem gibberish.


Joh 8:43  Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Additionally, who empowered that man, and his hand, to give the gifts by the laying on of his hand?



The Lord according to Acts.  Jesus if you will. Ananie says to Paul that he is sent by Jesus. One could say that a deciple of Jesus because he is filled with the Holy Spirit can fill others with the Holy Spirit, if qualified to do so. I suggest without scriptural backing that this qualification is from the amount of grace in a person's faith. I suggest this because this is how it seems to me.

In the CC this is usually represented by the bishop laying hands at Confirmation. Confirmation is a choice that a person who is baptized decides to take. It is the active and deliberate entry into the Kingdom, with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, by the candidate. 

In the charismatic services I have attended people were filled with and without the laying of the hands. Some were filled and then the laying of the hands was administered.

What I understand the filling of the Holy Spirit to be is that it is the tangible power of God's will as per the ministry of Jesus established in a person. It does not have to follow a rigid protocol, because it doesn't. However, it does happen in or from God's church in my experience.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> But here's a serious question for you.
> What makes you so sure that Bro. Bandersnatch was actually baptized with the Holy Spirit?
> Is it because he says he was?
> Shouldn't he merely accept what occurred to him without claiming that he received the baptism of the Spirit that the apostles received?
> He cannot know that.  He cannot know that.




If a man is called by God and he sells all his possessions do we know what he has sold? We don't really, but he knows and God knows. But we can only know by our experience and the fruits of the new life he claims.

What is in common that we recieve the Holy Spirit? We are given each his life in Christ. To one a family is given back their dauther and to others, the gentiles,  are given apostles.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2011)

Israel said:


> Act 2:4  And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
> Act 2:5  And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
> Act 2:6  Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
> Act 2:7  And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
> ...



I don't know why I get this vision, but I see old ironsides retired to the scrapyards and their irons smelted into  garden tillers, paring knives and  into the casings of door bell batteries. Hallo Isreal!

Your re-turned heart is well twisted.


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## formula1 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> But here's a serious question for you.
> What makes you so sure that Bro. Bandersnatch was actually baptized with the Holy Spirit?
> Is it because he says he was?
> Shouldn't he merely accept what occurred to him without claiming that he received the baptism of the Spirit that the apostles received?
> He cannot know that.  He cannot know that.



He knows by the Spirit and the Word with faith applied.  I might add the same way you and I know Jesus as Savior and Lord, by the Spirit and the Word with faith applied. 

Do you know you are saved? Of course you do! How then can you not have joy for his experience (and mine too)?  
We received the Holy Spirit differently from you, yet that is confirmed in the Word. Is the Spirit within us different? Of course not! You know this! I know you do!  We love Jesus just like you do! No difference!  The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the common good. Making Him known in each one of us I contend can be very different.  He gave you what you need, He gives us what we need.  According to His will!


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## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2011)

formula1 said:


> He knows by the Spirit and the Word with faith applied.  I might add the same way you and I know Jesus as Savior and Lord, by the Spirit and the Word with faith applied.
> 
> Do you know you are saved? Of course you do! How then can you not have joy for his experience (and mine too)?
> We received the Holy Spirit differently from you, yet that is confirmed in the Word. Is the Spirit within us different? Of course not! You know this! I know you do!  We love Jesus just like you do! No difference!  The manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the common good. Making Him known in each one of us I contend can be very different.  He gave you what you need, He gives us what we need.  According to His will!



There are some words stated as generic to christians by christians. Viewed with "faith applied" they become visions and  representative of the realities of new heavens and a new earth.

Thanking God for Ronnie T and his questions, I happened apon Ecclesiastes and took a good look. I found a gread description of man and his perspective on life without "faith applied". If I was Sheakespear I would use Ecclesiastes as a basis for the vexations of my caracters. In them there would be all of us. And all of us on the spiritual forums here, including the AAA forum. We are all in Ecclesiastes and yet we are all different from one another. We overcome and become one body, one in Christ, when "faith is applied" if I can  re-use F1's words.


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## Michael F. Gray (Sep 3, 2011)

Attended Bible College wth a young man raised in a Pentacostal Church that shared his "experiance" of receiving tongues. He stated after making a profession of Faith, he was taken to a quiet room and given a long sentance to read progressively faster. After some 45 minutes the sounds he made were pure jibberish. His mentor arose from his seat loudly proclaming, "you've got the gift brother, you can speak in tongues."  I would opine the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such. God is in no way glorified. The Apostle Paul  gave several rules for "tongues speaking" in the New Testament Church. They are all found in I Corinthians 14.  The first three are found in verses 27 & 28. (1) let it be by two, or at the most three. (2) Let them speak by course, or one at a time. (3) Let one interpret, if there is no interpreter, let them keep silent in the Church. (4) in verse 33, God is not the author of confussion.[these two are not out of context, but are in the midst of Paul's rules for practicing tongues]. (5) Let your women keep silent in the churches. [this does not keep women from speaking in the Church, but specifically prohibits them participating in speaking in an unknown tongue in the Church. Most Unscriptural use of tongues today involves women.](6) verse 40, let all things be done decently and in order.  I hope nobody will falsely claim this means women can't speak in the Church. IT DOES NOT. Keeping it in context, this entire chapter Paul used to correct wrongful abuses of tongues. Some had started to use it as a status symbol. We've got it, and you don't, kind of thing. What they were missing was edification. Paul goes on to say that is what one is to desire. On pentecost the desciples spoke in their tongue, those assembled from many countries, and dialects, heard what they preached in there on language. That was a miracle from God, and it was for edification of all assembled, and many were saved.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 3, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> The Lord according to Acts.  Jesus if you will. Ananie says to Paul that he is sent by Jesus. One could say that a deciple of Jesus because he is filled with the Holy Spirit can fill others with the Holy Spirit, if qualified to do so. I suggest without scriptural backing that this qualification is from the amount of grace in a person's faith. I suggest this because this is how it seems to me.
> 
> In the CC this is usually represented by the bishop laying hands at Confirmation. Confirmation is a choice that a person who is baptized decides to take. It is the active and deliberate entry into the Kingdom, with all the gifts of the Holy Spirit, by the candidate.
> 
> ...



Yes.  Jesus Christ empowered Saul with the power of the Holy Spirit so that he could do God's ministry throughout Judea and the Roman empire.  Paul, and the other apostles were given ALL power from God in order to accomplish what God would have them do.  And Paul kept, and used, that power during the rest of his life of carrying the Gospel and establishing churches.
No one today is touched by the Holy Spirit in the way Paul and the other apostles were.

The true work of the Spirit today is done as He inspires people to give themselves to the Lord's work; to give themselves to the service of others.  The Mother Theresa's of the world are the ones most filled with the Spirit today.  The alcoholics and and horribly evil people who've allowed God's Spirit to invade their hearts and soul so that they can live life anew in Jesus Christ.  Those are the ones who prove they have salvation and have received the Holy Spirit.
They are the temple of the Holy Spirit.
And they don't get inside four walls to express their Holy Spirit.  They show Him in all the people they touch.  As they share their humble lives with other people.

The gift of tongues would be a significant addition to the missionary work the church does throughout all the world today.  For an American missionary's to travel to foreign land knowing that as they spoke, people of all languages would be able to understand each word they spoke.  But it isn't available.
God's will be done.

Paul told the Christian at Corinth:  "I thank God that I'm able to speak in tongues more than you all;  however, in the church I would rather speak five words that can be understood by all, rather than 10,000 words that can't be understood by those in attendance."


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## Ronnie T (Sep 3, 2011)

I can accept whatever a man tells me that has occurred to them in a spiritual manner.
But I am forced to take pause when someone tells me that they are certain that they have been baptized "with" the Holy Spirit just the way the apostles were.

I could certainly tell you of all the events that have happened to me in my life, but I would never be so bold as to tell you explicitly what caused it and why God caused it.

I'll say once more, biblically, there is only one N.T. baptism, recorded for us in the Gospel.  That that is the baptism of the great commission that was carried out all through the work of Christ and the apostles.  It continues today.

One might receive the Holy Spirit in an unusual way.  But I just don't believe anyone alive today has every been baptized with the H.S. the way the apostles were.


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## M80 (Sep 3, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Attended Bible College wth a young man raised in a Pentacostal Church that shared his "experiance" of receiving tongues. He stated after making a profession of Faith, he was taken to a quiet room and given a long sentance to read progressively faster. After some 45 minutes the sounds he made were pure jibberish. His mentor arose from his seat loudly proclaming, "you've got the gift brother, you can speak in tongues."  I would opine the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such. God is in no way glorified. The Apostle Paul  gave several rules for "tongues speaking" in the New Testament Church. They are all found in I Corinthians 14.  The first three are found in verses 27 & 28. (1) let it be by two, or at the most three. (2) Let them speak by course, or one at a time. (3) Let one interpret, if there is no interpreter, let them keep silent in the Church. (4) in verse 33, God is not the author of confussion.[these two are not out of context, but are in the midst of Paul's rules for practicing tongues]. (5) Let your women keep silent in the churches. [this does not keep women from speaking in the Church, but specifically prohibits them participating in speaking in an unknown tongue in the Church. Most Unscriptural use of tongues today involves women.](6) verse 40, let all things be done decently and in order.  I hope nobody will falsely claim this means women can't speak in the Church. IT DOES NOT. Keeping it in context, this entire chapter Paul used to correct wrongful abuses of tongues. Some had started to use it as a status symbol. We've got it, and you don't, kind of thing. What they were missing was edification. Paul goes on to say that is what one is to desire. On pentecost the desciples spoke in their tongue, those assembled from many countries, and dialects, heard what they preached in there on language. That was a miracle from God, and it was for edification of all assembled, and many were saved.



Amen, Amen, couldn't said it better, I agree with you totally, I've said the same thing in this forum but some just don't understand 1 corinth. 14.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 3, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Yes.  Jesus Christ empowered Saul with the power of the Holy Spirit so that he could do God's ministry throughout Judea and the Roman empire.  Paul, and the other apostles were given ALL power from God in order to accomplish what God would have them do.  And Paul kept, and used, that power during the rest of his life of carrying the Gospel and establishing churches.
> No one today is touched by the Holy Spirit in the way Paul and the other apostles were.
> 
> The true work of the Spirit today is done as He inspires people to give themselves to the Lord's work; to give themselves to the service of others.  The Mother Theresa's of the world are the ones most filled with the Spirit today.  The alcoholics and and horribly evil people who've allowed God's Spirit to invade their hearts and soul so that they can live life anew in Jesus Christ.  Those are the ones who prove they have salvation and have received the Holy Spirit.
> ...




The church today speaks all the languages of the world. More later....

OK...later has come today...LOL

Augustine of Hippo said that speaking in tongues, as per the apostles, was for its time, not now or in his own days. But..... he went on to explain this:

Behold, he giveth as it were the tune of thy song; seek not words as if thou couldest explain whereby God is pleased. Sing with jubilation: for this is to sing skilfully unto God, to sing with jubilation. What is it to sing with jubilation ? To be unable to understand, to express in words, what is sung in the heart. For singers, either in the harvest, or in the vineyard, or in any other busy work, after they have begun in the words of their hymns to exult and rejoice, being as it were filled with so great joy, that they cannot express it in words, then turn from actual words, and proceed to sounds of jubilation. The jubilee is a sound signifying that the heart laboureth with that which it cannot utter. And whom beseemeth that jubilation, but the Ineffable God? For He is Ineffable, Whom thou canst not speak; and if thou canst not speak Him, and oughtest not to keep Him silent, what remaineth to thee but jubilation ; that the heart may rejoice without words, and the boundless extent of joy may have no limits of syllables? Sing skilfully unto Him with jubilation.

—Augustine of Hippo on the 33 Psalm

Now this is perhaps what the "baptism of the holy Spirit does". My personal experience, although it was not speakin in tongues but of a similar nature, was not that I was being saved, but I was being visited. And this visit build me up in Christ, confirmed Him in my life. My faith was now tangible or physical, sensually percieved, if you wish. ( words?)

And this is interesting Ronnie T: 

12th century– Bernard of Clairvaux, commenting on Mark 16:17 ("they will speak in new tongues"), asked: "For who is there that seems to have these signs of the faith, without which no one, according to this Scripture, shall be saved?"[39] He explained that these signs were no longer present because there were greater miracles– the transformed lives of believers. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossolalia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_with_the_Holy_Spirit

Now I have given you some links mostly wiki, and although some disregard wiki as a source, perhaps the explanations there are better put than my own.

Now I will gently pick up these words, "The true work of the Spirit today is done as He inspires people to give themselves to the Lord's work." This is true and not only for today. But also the work of the Spirit is many things to an individual.

Now speaking in tongues and/or glosolalia today has been discounted as not being the same as the speaking in tongues of the apostles and some have dismissed it as without great significance to individuals or the church. I think all would agree that the speaking in tongues of today is not the same as the apostles recieved. But throughout church history, church fathers have witnessed that speaking in tongues or glosolalia has served to the edification of individuals who experienced it and that when genuine, it was part of a Holy Spirit experience .

As to the  evidence of Baptism of (or with) the Holy Spirit by glosolalia, if you follow the link on wiki you will find this to which I will stop for now:

"Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence."

Peace.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 5, 2011)

Thanks Gordy.
The spirit world is not something that I can speak with absolute comfort.  I can't control it, send it, or refuse it (I guess) unless God will it and cause it.
Quiet honestly, I think, for all of us, it is what it is.
We should all be comfortable about that.

Blessings and thanks.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 5, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Thanks Gordy.
> The spirit world is not something that I can speak with absolute comfort.  I can't control it, send it, or refuse it (I guess) unless God will it and cause it.
> Quiet honestly, I think, for all of us, it is what it is.
> We should all be comfortable about that.
> ...



My dear friend, I don't want the last word, honest I don't but... LOL and I know that I'm probably tireing you...but I just have to give you one little torn in your side...in friendship.

 Alexander Campbell was also deeply influenced by Enlightenment thinking, in particular the Scottish School of Common Sense of Thomas Reid and Dugald Stewart.[10]:84 This group saw the Bible as providing concrete facts rather than abstract truths, and advocated a scientific or Baconian approach to interpreting the Bible that would begin with those facts, arrange the ones applicable to a given topic, and then use them to draw conclusions.[10]:84 Alexander Campbell reflected this approach, when arguing that "the Bible is a book of facts, not of opinions, theories, abstract generalities, nor of verbal definitions."[10]:84 He believed that if Christians would limit themselves to the facts found in the Bible, they would necessarily come to agreement. He saw those facts as providing a blueprint or constitution for the church.

We are all from somewhere or people think we are.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 5, 2011)

In my spirit, this is how I look at tongues.

I believe the apostles spoke in different tongues(different languages) which was unknown to them....ie spanish, vietnamese, chinese....not that those people lived then, just an example...but what ever languages that came from the tower of babel.

I also believe that the Holy Spirit will pray for us when we don't know what to pray for, with groanings to deep for words and I believe that can come out of our own mouths. It has never happened to me, and I have seen a lot of fakeness but I have seen one lady in church that all of a sudden she got up and walked up to about a foot from a wall and started speaking in tongues of the Holy Spirit. It didn't need to be interpreted because who can interprete that? Spanish, yeah, chinese yeah, but the language of God, I don't know.
She stood there for a good 20 minutes and it wasn't jibberish, it was a language, one I did not understand but she was loud and consistant and most of the words were different, not the oh sham balala that we hear a lot.

Also I have heard that it is a tongue that satan does not understand and that's why people pray that way. I've never done it, but I have been slain in the spirit. 

I can't say that it doesn't exist, I believe I have heard it, at least one person that I did not feel was fake, and I knew her and had never seen her do that before.

I'd actually like to experience it, however until then, I'll jump and shout when the spirit falls upon me. I'm sure the 'hood' I live in wishes I'd be quiet...lol.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 5, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> My dear friend, I don't want the last word, honest I don't but... LOL and I know that I'm probably tireing you...but I just have to give you one little torn in your side...in friendship.
> 
> Alexander Campbell was also deeply influenced by Enlightenment thinking, in particular the Scottish School of Common Sense of Thomas Reid and Dugald Stewart.[10]:84 This group saw the Bible as providing concrete facts rather than abstract truths, and advocated a scientific or Baconian approach to interpreting the Bible that would begin with those facts, arrange the ones applicable to a given topic, and then use them to draw conclusions.[10]:84 Alexander Campbell reflected this approach, when arguing that "the Bible is a book of facts, not of opinions, theories, abstract generalities, nor of verbal definitions."[10]:84 He believed that if Christians would limit themselves to the facts found in the Bible, they would necessarily come to agreement. He saw those facts as providing a blueprint or constitution for the church.
> 
> We are all from somewhere or people think we are.



I sure hope Bro Campbell let himself outside of those boundaries, at least from time to time.  It's tough to enjoy Christ with one's hands tied isn't it?  I absolutely know what you're saying.  At times, those boundaries are important(to help us stay on the narrow road rather than the wide).  But Christ doesn't want our hearts and spirits bound to the front pew at church.

Thanks


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 6, 2011)

Michael F. Gray said:


> Attended Bible College wth a young man raised in a Pentacostal Church that shared his "experiance" of receiving tongues. He stated after making a profession of Faith, he was taken to a quiet room and given a long sentance to read progressively faster. After some 45 minutes the sounds he made were pure jibberish. His mentor arose from his seat loudly proclaming, "you've got the gift brother, you can speak in tongues."  I would opine the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with such. God is in no way glorified. The Apostle Paul  gave several rules for "tongues speaking" in the New Testament Church. They are all found in I Corinthians 14.  The first three are found in verses 27 & 28. (1) let it be by two, or at the most three. (2) Let them speak by course, or one at a time. (3) Let one interpret, if there is no interpreter, let them keep silent in the Church. (4) in verse 33, God is not the author of confussion.[these two are not out of context, but are in the midst of Paul's rules for practicing tongues]. (5) Let your women keep silent in the churches. [this does not keep women from speaking in the Church, but specifically prohibits them participating in speaking in an unknown tongue in the Church. Most Unscriptural use of tongues today involves women.](6) verse 40, let all things be done decently and in order.  I hope nobody will falsely claim this means women can't speak in the Church. IT DOES NOT. Keeping it in context, this entire chapter Paul used to correct wrongful abuses of tongues. Some had started to use it as a status symbol. We've got it, and you don't, kind of thing. What they were missing was edification. Paul goes on to say that is what one is to desire. On pentecost the desciples spoke in their tongue, those assembled from many countries, and dialects, heard what they preached in there on language. That was a miracle from God, and it was for edification of all assembled, and many were saved.



x2

I agree.   repeating a sentence over and over is not the gift of tongues, or evidence of the baptism.   the gift of tongues and prophecy each had rules attached....for order.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 6, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> "Since the growth and spread of Pentecostal and charismatic churches, however, the belief that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is an experience distinct from regeneration has come into increasing prominence."



speaking from experience, I, and many I've known to be baptised, agree with that!


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## JB0704 (Sep 6, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> It's tough to enjoy Christ with one's hands tied isn't it?



I think that is my favorite quote to date on this forum.  Though I may take a different meaning from it than you intended, I might borrow this phrase in future discussions.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 6, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Everytime you used the word baptism above you've used it as though you were speaking of New Testament baptism.  But Holy Spirit baptism is NOT the New Testament baptism.
> 
> Listen carefully please.  The baptism spoken of in Acts 2:38 is New Testament "water" baptism.  Water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism.
> From Acts 2:38 thru the rest of God's word, the word "baptism" is always referring to the water baptism as discribed in Romans 6.  Not Holy Spirit Baptism. (with one or two exceptions)
> ...



In Acts 1, Luke writes that Jesus had prophesied that the apostles would be 'baptized in the Holy Ghost' not many days hence.   Acts 2 describes that baptism, even though it used the word 'filled'.   If they weren't baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 2, then where did this prophesied baptism occur?    Also, in Acts 11, it is stated that Cornelius and his gang were filled "just as we were"....meaning, the same as on the day of pentecost.   To assume he was referring to another event other than the Acts 2 filling is preposterous.   

If a=b, and b=c, then a=c.

Or...am i totally confused by what you were saying?   That has been known to happen.   

I'm printing off your post for review tonight.    Good study material.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 6, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> In Acts 1, Luke writes that Jesus had prophesied that the apostles would be 'baptized in the Holy Ghost' not many days hence.   Acts 2 describes that baptism, even though it used the word 'filled'.   If they weren't baptized in the Holy Ghost in Acts 2, then where did this prophesied baptism occur?    Also, in Acts 11, it is stated that Cornelius and his gang were filled "just as we were"....meaning, the same as on the day of pentecost.   To assume he was referring to another event other than the Acts 2 filling is preposterous.
> 
> If a=b, and b=c, then a=c.
> 
> ...



Been missin you the last few days.
Glad to see you're back.
Yep, I think you missed my point....... Beginning with Acts 2:38, throughout the rest of all the Gospel, all the letters, all the books, everytime the word "baptism" is used it's used to refer to water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism.
I believe Holy Spirit baptism only applied to the apostles (Acts 2) and to Cornelius.  I believe all other occasions were something short of H.S. baptism.

The Apostles were given "ALL" power through the Spirit.  No one else received "ALL".  
I think!  Maybe!  I'm not sure!


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## BANDERSNATCH (Sep 6, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Been missin you the last few days.
> Glad to see you're back.
> Yep, I think you missed my point....... Beginning with Acts 2:38, throughout the rest of all the Gospel, all the letters, all the books, everytime the word "baptism" is used it's used to refer to water baptism, not Holy Spirit baptism.
> I believe Holy Spirit baptism only applied to the apostles (Acts 2) and to Cornelius.  I believe all other occasions were something short of H.S. baptism.
> ...



Well, we know that it was for more than the apostles and Cornelius because there were 120 present in Acts 2, (there were more than 11 languages listed at the very least) and Cornelius whole house was baptized "as we were in the beginning".    

Anyway, I think we're beating a dead horse here.  I, too, think that cup of coffee after a morning's bowhunt would probaby be better!


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## formula1 (Sep 6, 2011)

*Re:*

I prefer a big tall glass of milk after the morning bowhunt, but other than that, I'm good!


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## Ronnie T (Sep 6, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Well, we know that it was for more than the apostles and Cornelius because there were 120 present in Acts 2, (there were more than 11 languages listed at the very least) and Cornelius whole house was baptized "as we were in the beginning".
> 
> Anyway, I think we're beating a dead horse here.  I, too, think that cup of coffee after a morning's bowhunt would probaby be better!



I spent a lot of time out working today.  And as usual, I drank coffee all day long.  A pot before I went out.  Then probably 5 more cups during the day.


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## mtnwoman (Sep 6, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> I spent a lot of time out working today.  And as usual, I drank coffee all day long.  A pot before I went out.  Then probably 5 more cups during the day.



You've got to be kiddin' me! You should be able to fly doing that....lol


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