# Is organized religion the root of all evil?



## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Some of the most vile things in the history of man were done in the name of God. Why would an all knowing and all powerful God let violent actions be carried out in his or her name? Why do you think that out of the hundreds of religions around the world, the one your parents practiced and therefore you practice just happened to be the right one. Maybe Americans are just lucky. We were born christian so we will enjoy heaven. Thank God we were not born in the middle east. Every body knows that Muslims will burn in h3ll. Or is it the other way around? Or maybe neither got it right and we will all burn. We are all playing our lucky numbers in a sort of eternal lottery with hopes of a big payout the day we die. What if the words of Jesus or Muhammad were that of a crazy person who made up their whole account with God. If someone today says they have spoke with God, deliver his message and gain followers, that man is mad and his followers cult members. 
I do not play the lottery. I feel that anything you want in life you should work hard for. I am not arrogant enough to think that the choices I make in life and religion are right and will gain me rewards in the afterlife. I do think that if there is any all knowing all powerful God he will not be so petty as to banish you to h3ll for not worshiping him in the correct building or calling to him with the correct name. I believe that if a man lives a good life, respects his fellow man and nature, no God would punish him. In the beginning that was the entire purpose of religion. Over time it has been taken out of context and warped into the belief that a book holds all the secrets to life. The real secret is that you should do all you can to enjoy life. If enjoying life to you is going to church every Sunday than enjoy. Just don't think your particular church is going to keep you off the HELLTRAIN. Any religion is just a starting point to help you lead a good life, respect your fellow man and nature.


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## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

Question everything.


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## ambush80 (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Some of the most vile things in the history of man were done in the name of God. Why would an all knowing and all powerful God let violent actions be carried out in his or her name? Why do you think that out of the hundreds of religions around the world, the one your parents practiced and therefore you practice just happened to be the right one. Maybe Americans are just lucky. We were born christian so we will enjoy heaven. Thank God we were not born in the middle east. Every body knows that Muslims will burn in h3ll. Or is it the other way around? Or maybe neither got it right and we will all burn. We are all playing our lucky numbers in a sort of eternal lottery with hopes of a big payout the day we die. What if the words of Jesus or Muhammad were that of a crazy person who made up their whole account with God. If someone today says they have spoke with God, deliver his message and gain followers, that man is mad and his followers cult members.
> I do not play the lottery. I feel that anything you want in life you should work hard for. I am not arrogant enough to think that the choices I make in life and religion are right and will gain me rewards in the afterlife. I do think that if there is any all knowing all powerful God he will not be so petty as to banish you to h3ll for not worshiping him in the correct building or calling to him with the correct name. I believe that if a man lives a good life, respects his fellow man and nature, no God would punish him. In the beginning that was the entire purpose of religion. Over time it has been taken out of context and warped into the belief that a book holds all the secrets to life. The real secret is that you should do all you can to enjoy life. If enjoying life to you is going to church every Sunday than enjoy. Just don't think your particular church is going to keep you off the HELLTRAIN. Any religion is just a starting point to help you lead a good life, respect your fellow man and nature.





WTM45 said:


> Question everything.



Can I get a big 'ol Baptist AMEN!!!!!!?


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Some of the most vile things in the history of man were done in the name of God. Why would an all knowing and all powerful God let violent actions be carried out in his or her name? Why do you think that out of the hundreds of religions around the world, the one your parents practiced and therefore you practice just happened to be the right one. Maybe Americans are just lucky. We were born christian so we will enjoy heaven. Thank God we were not born in the middle east. Every body knows that Muslims will burn in h3ll. Or is it the other way around? Or maybe neither got it right and we will all burn. We are all playing our lucky numbers in a sort of eternal lottery with hopes of a big payout the day we die. What if the words of Jesus or Muhammad were that of a crazy person who made up their whole account with God. If someone today says they have spoke with God, deliver his message and gain followers, that man is mad and his followers cult members.
> I do not play the lottery. I feel that anything you want in life you should work hard for. I am not arrogant enough to think that the choices I make in life and religion are right and will gain me rewards in the afterlife. I do think that if there is any all knowing all powerful God he will not be so petty as to banish you to h3ll for not worshiping him in the correct building or calling to him with the correct name. I believe that if a man lives a good life, respects his fellow man and nature, no God would punish him. In the beginning that was the entire purpose of religion. Over time it has been taken out of context and warped into the belief that a book holds all the secrets to life. The real secret is that you should do all you can to enjoy life. If enjoying life to you is going to church every Sunday than enjoy. Just don't think your particular church is going to keep you off the HELLTRAIN. Any religion is just a starting point to help you lead a good life, respect your fellow man and nature.



if i had to give you a simple answer to your question... it would be...

true Christianity is no more a "religion" than you being "in love" with a spouse, or you loving your children. loving the true and living God is not a religion. men call it religion but it really isn't, at least according to the Bible. the word "religion" is only used a few times in the Bible not really ever in a positive sense. loving the true and living God of the Bible (the Creator of all...) is a covenant or "marriage" between His child and God. He gave us a covenant to obey or break... 

when a man does an atrocity and says its in the name of religion, he is correct. if a man murders another and says he did it for god... he did. he did it for satan, who is the god of this world.

when a muslim flies a plane into a building he did it for satan, not the true and living God of the Bible. true Christians who love the God of the Bible do not fly planes into buildings... or murder others so they will "convert" to their "brand" of religion...

a true Christian (decided by Christ, not by me or a group of men) follows Christ and is a disciple. he obeys the commands of Christ which are found in the Word of God...

i am sure that you probably _wont_ take the time to read it... but... all of the answers to your questions can be found here... 

http://www.christinyou.net/pdfs/Christiantynotrel.pdf


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

That is called Ethnocentrism and that's OK. Everyone practices ethnocentrism otherwise our religions "Christianity" would be nothing more than just another radical cult. our belief that our "brand" of religion is something different and superior to all others proves my point. If your parents raised you as a Buddhist do you think you would have found Jesus, or would you have the same poetic words to make your case that Buddhism is more than a religion.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Some of the most vile things in the history of man were done in the name of God.




... but they pale in comparison to the vile things NOT done in the name of God.

To answer the thread title:  no.


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## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> men call it religion but it really isn't, at least according to the Bible...



It must be true.  It says so.
Hmmmmmm........


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but they pale in comparison to the vile things NOT done in the name of God.
> 
> To answer the thread title:  no.



I believe burning a misunderstood woman in front of a town of cheering church going people, or christian knights slaughtering thousands of innocent Muslims and other Christians, or Muslims flying a plane into a building all in the name of God is about as vile as it gets.


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> That is called Ethnocentrism and that's OK. Everyone practices ethnocentrism otherwise our religions "Christianity" would be nothing more than just another radical cult. our belief that our "brand" of religion is something different and superior to all others proves my point. If your parents raised you as a Buddhist do you think you would have found Jesus, or would you have the same poetic words to make your case that Buddhism is more than a religion.



its not ethnocentrism. its called "truth". the difference between religion (buddhism, hinduism, etc) is Truth. the God of the Bible is the "true" God. the only One. the difference between true Christianity and cults is truth.

muhammad and buddha, died and stayed dead. Jesus died and rose to sit next to the Father and Creator of all. that is truth. the Bible has been proven to be true, therefore its words are truth. if its words are truth, what it says is truth.  and it condemns other worldly religions. it does not tolerate false religion... again it is truth where islam is from satan and is a lie. the koran cannot be proven but the Bible can and that is the difference. it all goes back to truth. without truth everything fails. heaven and earth will pass away... but God's words will never pass away...


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## centerpin fan (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> I believe burning a misunderstood woman in front of a town of cheering church going people, or christian knights slaughtering thousands of innocent Muslims and other Christians, or Muslims flying a plane into a building all in the name of God is about as vile as it gets.




How do you feel about Stalin starving 20 million of his own people?  Or Mao killing 70 million of his?  Or Hitler shoving 6 million Jews into gas chambers?


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> I believe burning a misunderstood woman in front of a town of cheering church going people, or christian knights slaughtering thousands of innocent Muslims and other Christians, or Muslims flying a plane into a building all in the name of God is about as vile as it gets.



it is vile, you are correct.   and it is from satan, not the true God. i would love to say that my name is Tom Brady, i play for the Patriots, make $5mil a year and am married to Gisele... but come Sunday... i will be sitting and watching the Patriots instead of playing for them... i am not the quarterback for the Patriots because the Patriots say so, not because i do.

nobody is a true Christian unless God says they are. you have millions of people running around saying they are Christians and are not and millions running around saying they are and God agrees with them, therefore making them actual children of God...

if a monk from 1625 went out at the command of a man wearing robes and womens clothing and murdered others because they would not bow the knee to their "brand" of religion (which really isnt true Christianity) then that monk is not a disciple of Christ (born again and saved) ... he has been decieved by the robe wearing man, religion and satan.

5 seconds after muhammad atta fly the plane into the tower... he realized that he made a huge mistake...  no virgins for him.  just eternal dam nation...  he had been duped by religion and satan...


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> its not ethnocentrism. its called "truth". the difference between religion (buddhism, hinduism, etc) is Truth. the God of the Bible is the "true" God. the only One. the difference between true Christianity and cults is truth.
> 
> muhammad and buddha, died and stayed dead. Jesus died and rose to sit next to the Father and Creator of all. that is truth. the Bible has been proven to be true, therefore its words are truth. if its words are truth, what it says is truth.  and it condemns other worldly religions. it does not tolerate false religion... again it is truth where islam is from satan and is a lie. the koran cannot be proven but the Bible can and that is the difference. it all goes back to truth. without truth everything fails. heaven and earth will pass away... but God's words will never pass away...



Like I said it is OK to be ethnocentric, but You still didn't answer my question. If your parents raised you as a Buddhist would you have found Jesus or would Buddhism be the "truth" that you speak of?


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 25, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> How do you feel about Stalin starving 20 million of his own people?  Or Mao killing 70 million of his?  Or Hitler shoving 6 million Jews into gas chambers?



all men are inherently evil and wicked.  the only thing that keeps anyone from being as evil as Hitler (etc) is that God has mercy on them and keeps them from committing atrocities. He just decided to allow these men to do greater works of evil because it was in His sovereign will. he allowed satan to have "his way" with them... its all about the soverignty of God...



i'm going huntn... its the rut where i'm huntn


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Like I said it is OK to be ethnocentric, but You still didn't answer my question. If your parents raised you as a Buddhist would you have found Jesus or would Buddhism be the "truth" that you speak of?



i did not find God... He choose me (for no reason that i can find..)

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day...

John 15:16
Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you...

Ephesians 1:4
According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,

i would say that a buddhist can be saved and "chosen" but it would be "in spite" of the religion of buddhism. if he is "called" i believe that he will "come out" of that religion and follow Christ.

at least thats what i believe that the Bible teaches. my opinion means nothing.... but the Word of God is truth...

now, i'm goin huntn...


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> at least thats what i believe that the Bible teaches. my opinion means nothing....
> 
> now, i'm goin huntn...



There you go. Neither does mine. Good luck on the hunt.


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## Tim L (Nov 25, 2009)

The short answer is no.  While alot of terrible things have been done over time in the name of religon, alot more was done by leaders (Hitler, Stalin, Attilla, Genhis Khan, etc.) who either had no religous beliefs or if they did they were just a side bar to their ultimate goals...


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Rouster said:


> The short answer is no.  While alot of terrible things have been done over time in the name of religon, alot more was done by leaders (Hitler, Stalin, Attilla, Genhis Khan, etc.) who either had no religous beliefs or if they did they were just a side bar to their ultimate goals...



But, the first examples of mass slaughtering were in the name of God or Gods, and without these examples of genocide would (Hitler, Stalin, Attilla, Genhis Khan, etc.) have done the same. The only reason man kills man is over differences between men, and at the root of these differences  is religion.


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## Tim L (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> But, the first examples of mass slaughtering were in the name of God or Gods, and without these examples of genocide would (Hitler, Stalin, Attilla, Genhis Khan, etc.) have done the same. The only reason man kills man is over differences between men, and at the root of these differences  is religion.



I don't see how you came to that conclusion.  The first examples of mass slaughtering were over greed of resources.  I want your food...I want your buffalo hunting grounds, I want your land....I want your riches (gold, silver, etc), I want your women....The first examples of mass slaugters (and mass slaughters is probably not the best term) were simply one culture enhancing their way of life at the expense of the other...

As for later examples, such as nazism and communism; well they were/are very secular movements; they have ideology that may sometimes resemble organized religon in zeal; but they all believe that when they die thats the end...they believe its all about the here and now..

I think the brush your painting with is too wide..


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI: 
What would you say of those who have evaluated other religious beliefs and chosen Christianity? Are they ethnocentric? What about millions of converts from other religions? Are they just following mom and dad as well? 

Christianity is not perfect. Jesus was. His followers are not. 
Find me a flaw in Jesus' teachings as it pertains to "respect your fellow man" and "live a good life."

Welcome to the madness...


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Rouster said:


> As for later examples, such as nazism and communism; well they were/are very secular movements; they have ideology that may sometimes resemble organized religon in zeal; but they all believe that when they die thats the end...they believe its all about the here and now..
> 
> I think the brush your painting with is too wide..



It is not any particular religion, just "organized" religion in general. If my brush is too wide it is for a reason. i can see the peace of mind being spiritual, knowing your god, and having an idea of afterlife can give someone. this is good, it serves a purpose. what does not serve any purpose or at least any purpose an all knowing and all powerful God would commend, is the placement of religious leaders with power over communities in the so called houses of the lord. when these leaders go astray they have such mind control over their followers that they have the ability to lead entire communities astray. Religion is supposed to be a personal relationship with you and your God, and organized religion has turned it into a social gatherings with potential for mob mentality.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> what does not serve any purpose or at least any purpose an all knowing and all powerful God would commend, is the placement of religious leaders with power over communities in the so called houses of the lord.




Placement of religious leaders in the church is the pattern set forth in the New Testament.  Bishops, presbyters, and deacons are all mentioned specifically, along with their qualifications.  You can't expect the church to ignore these directions.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> DREWSKI:
> What would you say of those who have evaluated other religious beliefs and chosen Christianity? Are they ethnocentric? What about millions of converts from other religions? Are they just following mom and dad as well?
> 
> Christianity is not perfect. Jesus was. His followers are not.
> ...



By no means, at the base of every religion there is a very good message of  "respect your fellow man" and "live a good life."
the original messages are great. it is the organized religion aspect of this that bothers me. The constant interpretation and reinterpretation of any religious text drives cultures so far away from the original message that was good. Any yes there are some that choose or convert to Christianity but they did not find Jesus on their own. Someone held there hand and showed them Jesus and probably told them where they would end up if they did not follow Jesus. Christianity is a popular religion and to some it is just easier to be christian. My father was a baptist preacher, i grew up in the church and found that God was no more in that building than he was at the bottom of a construction site outhouse. It is not God you should be looking for, but the source of the stories that make up every religion, "respect your fellow man" and "live a good life," and if there is a God out there watching and judging he will not judge you on what you call your religion, what you call him, or where you are when you speak to him, he will only judge you on how you live your life.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> Placement of religious leaders in the church is the pattern set forth in the New Testament.  Bishops, presbyters, and deacons are all mentioned specifically, along with their qualifications.  You can't expect the church to ignore these directions.



I dont expect it. I just think it leads to evil and i want no part of it. No man is any more holy than the next. The pope is just another man with a cool hat.


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## Tim L (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> It is not any particular religion, just "organized" religion in general. If my brush is too wide it is for a reason. i can see the peace of mind being spiritual, knowing your god, and having an idea of afterlife can give someone. this is good, it serves a purpose. what does not serve any purpose or at least any purpose an all knowing and all powerful God would commend, is the placement of religious leaders with power over communities in the so called houses of the lord. when these leaders go astray they have such mind control over their followers that they have the ability to lead entire communities astray. Religion is supposed to be a personal relationship with you and your God, and organized religion has turned it into a social gatherings with potential for mob mentality.



Oh well; opinions are like fannies, everyone has one.  You make some good points; some I disagree with.  Either way, the weather is supposed to be nice the next few days so if you don't stuff yourself to much tomorrow, get outside and do something fun (unless you have to work tomorrow)...


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Rouster said:


> Oh well; opinions are like fannies, everyone has one.  You make some good points; some I disagree with.  Either way, the weather is supposed to be nice the next few days so if you don't stuff yourself to much tomorrow, get outside and do something fun (unless you have to work tomorrow)...



That is true. No work so i will be off in the woods enjoying it while I got it. Have a good thanksgiving.


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## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> I dont expect it. I just think it leads to evil and i want no part of it. No man is any more holy than the next. The pope is just another man with a cool hat.



Religious belief systems and governments have much in common, but they need to be seperate at all times.  

They both intend to control the actions and activities of people.  They both have the potential of doing much harm to people.  They both must be watched closely and called to task by the people.

Bottom line, regardless of the reasons given, people are to blame for their actions, not some ideology.  We each have a responsibility for our actions right here in this lifetime.  Every day.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Religious belief systems and governments have much in common, but they need to be seperate at all times.
> 
> They both intend to control the actions and activities of people.  They both have the potential of doing much harm to people.  They both must be watched closely and called to task by the people.
> 
> Bottom line, regardless of the reasons given, people are to blame for their actions, not some ideology.  We each have a responsibility for our actions right here in this lifetime.  Every day.



To maintain control over our actions, we must separate ourselves from the masses. Otherwise we will end up another falling domino, wondering what happened.


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## WTM45 (Nov 25, 2009)

Some folks need the safety and security of being part of the herd.
They follow, and do not take any risks outside that safety zone.

Freethinkers they are not.  But even they need to be wary of the interpretations given by their "leadership" and who they allow to influence their daily lives.


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## 1john4:4 (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Some of the most vile things in the history of man were done in the name of God. Why would an all knowing and all powerful God let violent actions be carried out in his or her name? Why do you think that out of the hundreds of religions around the world, the one your parents practiced and therefore you practice just happened to be the right one. Maybe Americans are just lucky. We were born christian so we will enjoy heaven. Thank God we were not born in the middle east. Every body knows that Muslims will burn in h3ll. Or is it the other way around? Or maybe neither got it right and we will all burn. We are all playing our lucky numbers in a sort of eternal lottery with hopes of a big payout the day we die. What if the words of Jesus or Muhammad were that of a crazy person who made up their whole account with God. If someone today says they have spoke with God, deliver his message and gain followers, that man is mad and his followers cult members.
> I do not play the lottery. I feel that anything you want in life you should work hard for. I am not arrogant enough to think that the choices I make in life and religion are right and will gain me rewards in the afterlife. I do think that if there is any all knowing all powerful God he will not be so petty as to banish you to h3ll for not worshiping him in the correct building or calling to him with the correct name. I believe that if a man lives a good life, respects his fellow man and nature, no God would punish him. In the beginning that was the entire purpose of religion. Over time it has been taken out of context and warped into the belief that a book holds all the secrets to life. The real secret is that you should do all you can to enjoy life. If enjoying life to you is going to church every Sunday than enjoy. Just don't think your particular church is going to keep you off the HELLTRAIN. Any religion is just a starting point to help you lead a good life, respect your fellow man and nature.




Sorry but not one of us on here were born a Christian. We all are born sinners. And you are exactly right... You may go to church every time the church doors are open but unless you know Christ as Lord and Savior you will never make it to Heaven.  There is only one true living God and He is Holy! His judgement will not be on how bad or good we treated others. His judgement will be against sin! For His judgement is without mercy!! He does dearly love all of us because we are created in his image. This only makes us His creation. Through Christ we become His Children. I pray that I will never be a stumbling block for anyone especially those who are not saved. I am just so thankful that God showed His infinite love for this race of rebel sinners by sending His one and only Son to die on a cross... When I look at the cross I see the uglyness that it contains because sin is ugly and my sin nailed my Jesus to the cross. And I also see the Love and Grace when I realize that God did so love the world. I am so gratefull that I am not part of an organized religion. It is only Jesus and me. And I am thankful for my wonderful Church and brothers and sisters in Christ.


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 25, 2009)

I would argue that fear is the root of all evil.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2009)

I'd like to give a really big  "THANK YOU" to all the nice atheist, agnostics and unbelievers who have filled every thread of this spiritual forum for the past few weeks.
Your continual concern for the frame of mind of us Christians is appreciated.
Your intellectual influence on us has become a constant reminder that being a Christian is not easy.
Personally, I believe you deserve recognition for always disrupting our discussion of Bible matters.  No longer are we able to discuss our understanding of the things we believe concerning the God that we believe in.  We now, in all threads, deal with unbelievers who've come here to disrupt.

And it's obviously working.
Fortunately, you can clog this web site, but you won't harm the church that you have so much distain for.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

1john4:4 said:


> Sorry but not one of us on here were born a Christian. We all are born sinners. And you are exactly right... You may go to church every time the church doors are open but unless you know Christ as Lord and Savior you will never make it to Heaven.  There is only one true living God and He is Holy! His judgement will not be on how bad or good we treated others. His judgement will be against sin! For His judgement is without mercy!! He does dearly love all of us because we are created in his image. This only makes us His creation. Through Christ we become His Children. I pray that I will never be a stumbling block for anyone especially those who are not saved. I am just so thankful that God showed His infinite love for this race of rebel sinners by sending His one and only Son to die on a cross... When I look at the cross I see the uglyness that it contains because sin is ugly and my sin nailed my Jesus to the cross. And I also see the Love and Grace when I realize that God did so love the world. I am so gratefull that I am not part of an organized religion. It is only Jesus and me. And I am thankful for my wonderful Church and brothers and sisters in Christ.



this question is a organized religion question and not one of the details of your personal belief system. As this is a constant response by Christians to close my eyes to any thing other than the details of Christan belief (which everyone is well aware of) HELLTRAIN i give you the same response i gave someone earlier.

That is called Ethnocentrism and that's OK. Everyone practices ethnocentrism otherwise our religions "Christianity" would be nothing more than just another radical cult. our belief that our "brand" of religion is something different and superior to all others . If your parents raised you as a Buddhist do you think you would have found Jesus, or would you have the same poetic words to make your case that Buddhism is more than a religion.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 25, 2009)

I choose to follow Jesus and now I have surrendered my free-thinking abilities?  I must have missed that memo. 
I cannot believe the utter disdain some here have for Christianity. 

Christians are not willing to leave their comfort zone? Need to be part of a herd? 
What of those who are part of the church in parts of the world that are being persecuted? Those who are martyred for their beliefs? 
I suppose they are just doing it beacuse the "in" crowd is doing it. 

There is some fluffy Christianity especially in America. BUT, you paint with too large a brush.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'd like to give a really big  "THANK YOU" to all the nice atheist, agnostics and unbelievers who have filled every thread of this spiritual forum for the past few weeks.
> Your continual concern for the frame of mind of us Christians is appreciated.
> Your intellectual influence on us has become a constant reminder that being a Christian is not easy.
> Personally, I believe you deserve recognition for always disrupting our discussion of Bible matters.  No longer are we able to discuss our understanding of the things we believe concerning the God that we believe in.  We now, in all threads, deal with unbelievers who've come here to disrupt.
> ...


Just because you are not christian does not make you an atheist and this is exactly what i am talking about (the judgemental nature of those involved in organized religion) This is a spiritual discussion, or did i read it wrong. It must have said bible study for Christians only. I feel so bad for those who walk the earth holding in that much hatred for their fellow man. My god allows me to accept all those who are willing to accept me. Im sure your god specificly told you to be hateful to anyone who chalenges you to a logical conversation.


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## thedeacon (Nov 25, 2009)

I guess Jesus was wrong when he "organized" the apostles and taught them so they could carry on his work


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> I would argue that fear is the root of all evil.



That may be true. But fear of what? if that fear is of the unknown, is it possible that these fears were installed by organized religion's explanation.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

thedeacon said:


> I guess Jesus was wrong when he "organized" the apostles and taught them so they could carry on his work



maby he didnt realize the monster he was creating.


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## centerpin fan (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> maby he didnt realize the monster he was creating.



Oh, please.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 25, 2009)

To answer your question, "No."

To be the root of all evil, one must be able to intelligently connect every event of evil to some form of organized religion.  
Is every fight between two men started by religion? Between two countries? No. Most often, it is competing resources and bringing religion into the mix only helps fuel the fire for the cause. 
How about school yard fights? I am sure they were not started over lunch money or the cheerleader or even popularity and pride, but rather; the evil Christian said the Buddhist was crazy. 
How about armed robbery? Instead of looking for a quick fix for their drug addiction and robbing the store for money, they were robbing it because it was a Christian business and the robbers were Hindu. It was a "stab at the religious man" rather than a simple pursuit of monetary gains. 

The answer to your question is no and anyone who says otherwise is seriously misguided by personal bias.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> To answer your question, "No."
> 
> To be the root of all evil, one must be able to intelligently connect every event of evil to some form of organized religion.
> Is every fight between two men started by religion? Between two countries? No. Most often, it is competing resources and bringing religion into the mix only helps fuel the fire for the cause.
> ...



Good answer  I may be stretching on this one but possibly organized religions impacts on the class system may have caused undue stress on that on that drug addicted robber. Or maby i should change the title to root of most evil. While there will always be individuals who cannot behave in society you cannot ignore the fact that organized religion spews hatred and intolorance. when religion is studied alone one can understand the message of compasion for all men but for some reason when studied in a group setting that message gets lost.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> While there will always be individuals who cannot behave in society you cannot ignore the fact that organized religion spews hatred and intolorance. when religion is studied alone one can understand the message of compasion for all men but for some reason when studied in a group setting that message gets lost.



Matthew 5:
38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 
   39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 
   40And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also. 
   41And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 
   42Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away. 
   43Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 
   44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 
   45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. 
   46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? 
   47And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? 
   48Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Yep. Sounds very intolerant to me. 
Oh, regarding your opinion of churches. I also think it is very intolerant to allow anyone in church. Then to go so far as starting outreach ministries to help struggling people. HA! The nerve of those guys. Who needs to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, help the addicted, visit the sick, help those in prison, educate children, and give hope to the hopeless when we can just sit around and spew hatred and schedule beheadings?  
I guess being around those who need compassion and actually exercising compassion is nothing when you can sit around and think about being compassionate.


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## Israel (Nov 25, 2009)

Natural man senses a flaw and lack within.

Because he recognizes he is not in control, and is unconvinced of the goodness of the God who is, he sets about about as much as he is able to set it under his control.

In reaction to this lack he seeks power, influence, riches in an attempt to arrange his life so as to deny this flaw. 
This flaw came about when man believed the lie and put forth his hand to try and be like God, instead of trusting in the goodness of his creator.

Religion has systematized this and by it has attempted to hide the image and likeness of God.

Jesus came, was openly condemned by the religious leaders precisely for his understanding and practice of what it means to be the exact  image and likeness of the creator. 
He walked free of all restraints except those of love.

Because he was never resentful of his Father's authority, and trusted His discernment of good and evil, he never sought to eat of the forbidden tree and decide for himself what was good and evil. The devil even tried to tempt him to do so through a disciple. 

But he refused to put forth his hand and try to save his own life.
And yet at any time this was available to him.
Religion often tells men you can have God, and have your own way.
This is not so.
Only the man who has been convinced of the goodness of God's way* can joyfully proclaim Jesus is Lord.**


*Jesus said,  "I am the _way_, the truth, and the life."


**Jesus said, "All authority in heaven and earth has been given me."

The Church of God, the household of faith, the bride of Christ is composed of those who believe this. They are not organized under a belief system, they are alive in Him who is from the beginning, and He is alive in them.


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> That may be true. But fear of what? if that fear is of the unknown, is it possible that these fears were installed by organized religion's explanation.



I would take religion out of the equation in this case. Man doesn't need religion to do evil things. In prehistory man would kill others around him in competition for limited natural resources. Civilized modern man does the same thing. Religion hasn't anything to do with it. The fear that someone else will have something that you don't is motivation enough.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Just because you are not christian does not make you an atheist and this is exactly what i am talking about (the judgemental nature of those involved in organized religion) This is a spiritual discussion, or did i read it wrong. It must have said bible study for Christians only. I feel so bad for those who walk the earth holding in that much hatred for their fellow man. My god allows me to accept all those who are willing to accept me. Im sure your god specificly told you to be hateful to anyone who chalenges you to a logical conversation.



Well maybe I owe you an apology but it appeared to me that you entered this forum and in this thread purposely began to speak negatively about Christianity and it's principals.
It was my opinion that you came here loaded for bear.  You certainly didn't come with encouraging words for those of us who hold faith in Jesus Christ and to the teachings of His Gospel.

You are what you are.
God bless you as you pursue what ever it is that you came here for.
I came here to find comfort in being with others who believe in God.
You came in tossing stink bombs.

God bless you.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Good answer  I may be stretching on this one but possibly organized religions impacts on the class system may have caused undue stress on that on that drug addicted robber. Or maby i should change the title to root of most evil. While there will always be individuals who cannot behave in society you cannot ignore the fact that organized religion spews hatred and intolorance. when religion is studied alone one can understand the message of compasion for all men but for some reason when studied in a group setting that message gets lost.



I completely disagree with your assumptions.
I don't find any of the above to be true.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Some of the most vile things in the history of man were done in the name of God. Why would an all knowing and all powerful God let violent actions be carried out in his or her name?God will allow man to be as evil as they choose to be Why do you think that out of the hundreds of religions around the world, the one your parents practiced and therefore you practice just happened to be the right one.Oh, I know hundreds of people that do not fall into that category Maybe Americans are just lucky. We were born christian so we will enjoy heaven.You can't be born Christian.  You only become a Christian when you submit to being His disciple Thank God we were not born in the middle east.You'd be surprised at the number of Christians there are in Muslim countries.  Many Muslim believers have even converted to Christianity Every body knows that Muslims will burn in h3ll. Or is it the other way around? Or maybe neither got it right and we will all burn. We are all playing our lucky numbers in a sort of eternal lottery with hopes of a big payout the day we die.Personally, I've never bought a lottery ticket. What if the words of Jesus or Muhammad were that of a crazy person who made up their whole account with God.Then I'm an idiot and all the apostles died horrible deaths for no reason If someone today says they have spoke with God, deliver his message and gain followers, that man is mad and his followers cult members.
> I do not play the lottery. I feel that anything you want in life you should work hard for. I am not arrogant enough to think that the choices I make in life and religion are right and will gain me rewards in the afterlife.Christianity is not a religion, it's a relationship. I do think that if"If" there is any all knowing all powerful God he will not be so petty as to banish you to h3ll for not worshiping him in the correct building or calling to him with the correct name.I'd suggest you read God's Word and you'll see just how petty He can be I believe that if a man lives a good life, respects his fellow man and nature, no God would punish him.If your speaking of the Creator God, you'd be mistaken In the beginning that was the entire purpose of religion.Once again, totally wrong.  Ask Adam and Eve. Over time it has been taken out of context and warped into the belief that a book holds all the secrets to life. The real secret is that you should do all you can to enjoy life.So what you're saying is that we serve God by doing what "we" want to do? If enjoying life to you is going to church every Sunday than enjoy. Just don't think your particular church is going to keep you off the HELLTRAIN.I wholeheartedly agree with that sentence Any religion is just a starting point to help you lead a good life, respect your fellow man and nature.



But church is important.
Actually, if you believe in the God who's son is Jesus Christ, it is essential.
Most of the New Testament was not written to individual Christians, it was written to the church.
To the church at Ephesus.
To the church at Rome.
In the book of Revelation, Jesus wrote several letters to who?????  Churches.


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## christianhunter (Nov 25, 2009)

The love of money(riches,wealth,etc)is the root of all evil.Mammon is the name of the spirit.People worship wealth,more evil has been committed to obtain it,than anything else.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 25, 2009)

Ok this was not about Christianity. I came here to attack nobody. I tried my best to have a logical conversation. i am not here to hurt anyone or change anyones minds just to get you to think outside of the brainwashing your church has given to you. So please do not say hatefull things to me my christian brothers. Lets practice what we preach.


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## Roberson (Nov 25, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Ok this was not about Christianity. I came here to attack nobody. I tried my best to have a logical conversation. i am not here to hurt anyone or change anyones minds just to get you to think outside of the brainwashing your church has given to you. So please do not say hatefull things to me my christian brothers. Lets practice what we preach.


wow, man, you tell us we are brainwashed and then tell us not to say hateful things to you.


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## Ronnie T (Nov 26, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Ok this was not about Christianity. I came here to attack nobody. I tried my best to have a logical conversation. i am not here to hurt anyone or change anyones minds just to get you to think outside of the brainwashing your church has given to you. So please do not say hatefull things to me my christian brothers. Lets practice what we preach.



You joined this site back in February of this year.  You haven't been here since March of this year.
Suddenly, today you return, not to hunting or fishing, but to the spiritual discussion forum for the very first time.
And you came with a negative subject, with negative thoughts and negative tone.
What happened that caused you to come here with these particular comments?
It seems to me that something probably happened to bring this on.

My point is this:  Why have you asked us to defend ourselves to you?


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## earl (Nov 26, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'd like to give a really big  "THANK YOU" to all the nice atheist, agnostics and unbelievers who have filled every thread of this spiritual forum for the past few weeks.
> Your continual concern for the frame of mind of us Christians is appreciated.
> Your intellectual influence on us has become a constant reminder that being a Christian is not easy.
> Personally, I believe you deserve recognition for always disrupting our discussion of Bible matters.  No longer are we able to discuss our understanding of the things we believe concerning the God that we believe in.  We now, in all threads, deal with unbelievers who've come here to disrupt.
> ...



You are most welcome. I would suggest that you check in with one of the mods or admins. Evidently your ignore feature is malfunctioning. I think I have slipped by it once or twice myself. Once they figure out why yours keeps malfunctioning ,maybe they can Help Lowjack figure out how I keep slipping past his.

It is my opinion that it is not the atheists,agnostics,and unbelievers harming the church. You guys are doing a far better job of that than we could ever imagine. 

You have a good Thanksgiving .


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## Ronnie T (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> You are most welcome. I would suggest that you check in with one of the mods or admins. Evidently your ignore feature is malfunctioning. I think I have slipped by it once or twice myself. Once they figure out why yours keeps malfunctioning ,maybe they can Help Lowjack figure out how I keep slipping past his.
> 
> It is my opinion that it is not the atheists,agnostics,and unbelievers harming the church. You guys are doing a far better job of that than we could ever imagine.
> 
> You have a good Thanksgiving .



earl let me tell you what you see of the church on this forum.  You see the church defending itself.


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## earl (Nov 26, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> earl let me tell you what you see of the church on this forum.  You see the church defending itself.



I would agree that you and a few others are. Some others , not so much. For you to take offense that this is not a Christian Only Forum  and remains a Spiritual Forum is to your detriment imho.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 26, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'd like to give a really big "THANK YOU" to all the nice atheist, agnostics and unbelievers who have filled every thread of this spiritual forum for the past few weeks.
> Your continual concern for the frame of mind of us Christians is appreciated.
> Your intellectual influence on us has become a constant reminder that being a Christian is not easy.
> Personally, I believe you deserve recognition for always disrupting our discussion of Bible matters. No longer are we able to discuss our understanding of the things we believe concerning the God that we believe in. We now, in all threads, deal with unbelievers who've come here to disrupt.
> ...


 
 Amazing


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## crackerdave (Nov 26, 2009)

I will answer your question from God's Word,Drewski. The lust for money is the root of all evil. How are we doing on that?


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 26, 2009)

earl said:


> You are most welcome. I would suggest that you check in with one of the mods or admins. Evidently your ignore feature is malfunctioning. I think I have slipped by it once or twice myself. Once they figure out why yours keeps malfunctioning ,maybe they can Help Lowjack figure out how I keep slipping past his.
> 
> It is my opinion that it is not the atheists,agnostics,and unbelievers harming the church. You guys are doing a far better job of that than we could ever imagine.
> 
> You have a good Thanksgiving .



earl is possibly right. but here's the catch.  the first few hundred years of the existence of the true Church... satan tried to destroy the true Church from outside the Church and he used the evil roman empire to do it.  there was tons of persecution and murder and torture.  this plan did work but not well enough for satan because the Church actually grew in size...  

so being crafty as satan is... he decided to destroy the Church from within...  so he got constantine to issue the edict of toleration, making Christianity legal...

then he started working to combine the evil gov't with the Church thru deception. than he blended all sorts of pagan practices with Christianity.  it all started to seep in slowly to the Church. its called syncretism...  blend it all together and make it pallatable to the masses... that way we can tax it and keep the people poor, dumb and decieved....

so after 1700 years of this unfolding, you have a weak pathetic "christendom" because of the co-mingling, syncretism and church insiders (false prophets and false brethren) who think they are doing God's work but are really helping to weaken and destroy the Church.

so inside all of christendom, there is small remnant of believers who obey Christ, follow His teachings, spread the Gospel and have repented and these folks make up the true Church and are the children of God.

so when earl said "you guys" are doing a good job, he is possibly correct. if he was referring to the false brethren and false teachers within christendom who are actually attacking the Church, than he is correct.  if earl was referring to the born-again, saved, blood washed brethren who are promotiong the Kingdom and truly following Jesus and whose names are written in the Book of Life... he was incorrect....

i hope your tests went well, earl...   

and you also have a great thanksgiving....


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## gordon 2 (Nov 26, 2009)

Is organized religion the root of all evil? 

No. However, religions in part influence behaviour both social and individual. The influence can be evil or sinful or counter to human dignity. It can also be wholesome.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 26, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> earl is possibly right. but here's the catch. the first few hundred years of the existence of the true Church... satan tried to destroy the true Church from outside the Church and he used the evil roman empire to do it. there was tons of persecution and murder and torture. this plan did work but not well enough for satan because the Church actually grew in size...
> 
> so being crafty as satan is... he decided to destroy the Church from within... so he got constantine to issue the edict of toleration, making Christianity legal...
> 
> then he started working to combine the evil gov't with the Church thru deception. than he blended all sorts of pagan practices with Christianity. it all started to seep in slowly to the Church. its called syncretism... blend it all together and make it pallatable to the masses..*. that way we can tax it and keep the people poor, dumb and decieved*....


 I thought that was the democrat party


BeenHuntn said:


> so after 1700 years of this unfolding, you have a weak pathetic "christendom" because of the co-mingling, syncretism and church insiders (false prophets and false brethren) who think they are doing God's work but are really helping to weaken and destroy the Church.
> 
> so inside all of christendom, there is small remnant of believers who obey Christ, follow His teachings, spread the Gospel and have repented and these folks make up the true Church and are the children of God.
> 
> ...


 
I think Earl is spot on.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 26, 2009)

OK maybe it is not the root of all evil. maybe next time i will come with 12 angry nature worshipers to help me keep up. anyway thanks for the good discussion, and next time try not to be so defensive. like i said i am not here to attack. just trying to challenge myself and others to use our minds and not scripture to answer questions. i don't believe any religion is against us doing that. i am sorry if at any time in this discussion i have turned negative. it is not in my nature to do so, but it was in response to negativity sent my direction.  i would like to continue posting on this site, but in the future keep in mind i grew up with the bible know it well and unless the question is about it, quoting it is not the answer i am looking for or even the discussion i want to have.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Nov 26, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> OK maybe it is not the root of all evil. maybe next time i will come with 12 angry nature worshipers to help me keep up. anyway thanks for the good discussion, and next time try not to be so defensive. like i said i am not here to attack. just trying to challenge myself and others to use our minds and not scripture to answer questions. i don't believe any religion is against us doing that. i am sorry if at any time in this discussion i have turned negative. it is not in my nature to do so, but it was in response to negativity sent my direction. i would like to continue posting on this site, but in the future keep in mind i grew up with the bible know it well and unless the question is about it, quoting it is not the answer i am looking for or even the discussion i want to have.


 
Good luck with that, I have tried before. But there is always hope.


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## DocHoliday (Nov 26, 2009)

Organized Religions love of your money is the root of all evil...


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 26, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> OK maybe it is not the root of all evil. maybe next time i will come with 12 angry nature worshipers to help me keep up. anyway thanks for the good discussion, and next time try not to be so defensive. like i said i am not here to attack. just trying to challenge myself and others *to use our minds and not scripture to answer questions. *i don't believe any religion is against us doing that. i am sorry if at any time in this discussion i have turned negative. it is not in my nature to do so, but it was in response to negativity sent my direction.  i would like to continue posting on this site, but in the future keep in mind _*i grew up with the bible know it well and unless the question is about it, quoting it is not the answer *_i am looking for or even the discussion i want to have.




drewski, i would like to throw in a couple of thoughts if i may? i have pulled out 2 comments in your post above that really stick out to me... see above.

what you are saying is loud and clear. you want to be free to think what your logic tells you without the Word of God as a guide. you are looking for answers to some tough questions but do not want the answers to come from God...

i would like to say be very careful. every man is going to believe in "something" and make it his "religion" whether athieism, gnosticism, buddhism or whatever is "pallatible" to him. this is very dangerous from a spiritual standpoint.

i'll give you an example. a person near and dear to me grew up with a Bible and read it often.  she did not like what she was reading such as God killing and smiting thousands of men, there is only 1 way to heaven, old testament laws, not being worldly, etc...

these things were offensive to her. she could not make sense of them and turned away from the Bible (which is truth) and landed in a cult that has now totally brainwashed her.

she now does things daily that are totally against the Word of God. she breaks God's commands over and over. she is not a Christian, at least not anymore and not according to God, not my opinion, but the Bibles...

so because the Scripture was not suited to her likes, she is now in an evil cult. one that is pallatible to her tastes of what the true God SHOULD be like... she has gone out into the world and found a god (not the True God) that fits her "belly".

she is in grave danger of being judged. we cannot go out and form our own gods... and still be a saved Christian. its the Word of God and the God of the Bible or not. we are to accept God just the way He is in all of His wrath or mercy, whichever one...

i agree with you that orgnaized religion can be far from the truth and most of it is... but the Word of God IS Truth and you nor anyone else can go wrong by being a student of the Bible... a Christ follower and disciple.

i am hearing that you have had "enough" of the Scripture and i pray that you will come back to the Words of the living God... you may go out and find something that appears to "fit you better" than does Scripture... say one of the cults, buddhism, whatever... but those are not Scripture and never will be...  the truth is found in the Word of God... not the world... and not in the minds of men...  just me 2 sheckels...


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 26, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Organized Religions love of your money is the root of all evil...



i don't know if that is the root, but 10% x 200 + fund raisers + building funds = alot of money that could be given directly to charity.


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## DREWSKI3000 (Nov 26, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> drewski, i would like to throw in a couple of thoughts if i may? i have pulled out 2 comments in your post above that really stick out to me... see above.
> 
> what you are saying is loud and clear. you want to be free to think what your logic tells you without the Word of God as a guide. you are looking for answers to some tough questions but do not want the answers to come from God...
> 
> ...



like yourself i have found my god, and like your god, my god is everywhere, all powerful and all knowing. who is to say that Your god and my god are not the same god. mayby our god does not care about a book written by men. Mayby your friend found that through this so called "evil cult" she joined, she was able to hear god's drum much clearer without man's interpretations of gods will. i understand your views on the differences between christianty and cults, but if you take mans word out of the equasion, todays "evil cults" are started in the same way that christianity and all other major religions were.


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 26, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> i don't know if that is the root, but 10% x 200 + fund raisers + building funds = alot of money that could be given directly to charity.



So what the church does is not charity? 

See my previous post on what the church does as well as if not better than most charities...


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## BeenHuntn (Nov 26, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> like yourself i have found my god, and like your god, my god is everywhere, all powerful and all knowing. who is to say that Your god and my god are not the same god. mayby our god does not care about a book written by men. Mayby your friend found that through this so called "evil cult" she joined, she was able to hear god's drum much clearer without man's interpretations of gods will. i understand your views on the differences between christianty and cults, but if you take mans word out of the equasion, todays "evil cults" are started in the same way that christianity and all other major religions were.



well, according to the Bible, all people are either God's or they belong to satan. hitler belonged to satan. before i was saved, i belonged to satan and did his work. we could have the same God. i am not saying that we dont or that you're not a Christian... i dont know you.

and the Bible was NOT written by men. God authored the Book and men simply put the pen to it...just like when a true Christian does a good deed such as giving alms to the poor. when the Christian gives to the poor, he is not giving to the poor man, but Christ is giving to the poor. the Christian would simply be the "instrument" used by Christ to help the poor.

actually my freinds evil cult does not use the Bible or even their own interpretation of the Bible. they use their own doctrines which do not line up with the Bible at all... men cannot get to God, their way. they cannot "work" their way into heaven... isnt it funny how all religions have "works" as their main way of getting to God but true Christianity teaches the opposite. God makes men Christians thru selection, Christ and grace.

another difference between true Christianity and the cults  is that true Christianity was created by God Himself... where the cults were started by fallible, pathetic sinners.

my friends sincerity means nothing. Cain's offering to God was out of sincerity but he was wrong and judged by God. sinful man cannot create his own god and then worship that god and plan on reaching the God of the Bible.

if you want to worship brahma, go for it, but you wont reach the God of the Bible by being hindu. you cant reach the God of the Bible by being athiest. you either worship the God of the Bible on His terms or you do it in vain...

those are His words. He judges all who fail to worship Him in spirit and in truth. the God of the Bible has little tolerance for error. He is merciful and forgiving but you have to seek the God of that Bible and not create your own because your god is more palatible. the God of the Bible is stern, strict and narrow. its His way or no way. its called obedience, when we accept the God of the Bible.

the Scripture is proven to be true. Messianic prophecies are always true. i believe the Bible is true and infallible and i do my best to follow it although at times its weak... i dont follow the God of the Bible because He is palatible but because i believe Him to be true.


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## Tim L (Nov 26, 2009)

DREWSKI3000 said:


> Just because you are not christian does not make you an atheist and this is exactly what i am talking about (the judgemental nature of those involved in organized religion) This is a spiritual discussion, or did i read it wrong. It must have said bible study for Christians only. I feel so bad for those who walk the earth holding in that much hatred for their fellow man. My god allows me to accept all those who are willing to accept me. Im sure your god specificly told you to be hateful to anyone who chalenges you to a logical conversation.



Well you have a point there; it is not a straight line from christian to athiest (there are lots of agnostics in the world whether they realize it or not), plus countless other religions and faiths.  I don't know how new you are on here, but one thing you may want to keep in mind.  Over the past year there have been alot of attacks on here from self declared athestists.  There have also been alot of points raised by folks that are really anostics and folks just asking critical questions. As a defense mechanism, the latter group (agnostic, folks asking critical questions, etc) sometimes get attacked needlessly.

But because of those attacks, there has been a tendacy to lump all into two groups, christians and athestics.  Right or wrong that is happening because of the attacks over the last year.  Right or wrong, the tone of your questions is leading some to assume your athestist...


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## Israel (Nov 26, 2009)

Rouster said:


> Well you have a point there; it is not a straight line from christian to athiest (there are lots of agnostics in the world whether they realize it or not), plus countless other religions and faiths.  I don't know how new you are on here, but one thing you may want to keep in mind.  Over the past year there have been alot of attacks on here from self declared athestists.  There have also been alot of points raised by folks that are really anostics and folks just asking critical questions. As a defense mechanism, the latter group (agnostic, folks asking critical questions, etc) sometimes get attacked needlessly.
> 
> But because of those attacks, there has been a tendacy to lump all into two groups, christians and athestics.  Right or wrong that is happening because of the attacks over the last year.  Right or wrong, the tone of your questions is leading some to assume your athestist...



I think sometimes we forget why we (believers) are here.
God is not punishing us by prolonging our deployment in a less than pleasant and often hostile environment. Nor is he waiting for us to "prove" ourselves to him.
We are here, not for our own sakes, but for the sake of him who loved us and gave himself for us that all our brothers come home safely. Even and especially those who have been tricked into wearing an enemy uniform.

Leave no man behind.


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## Roberson (Nov 26, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Some folks need the safety and security of being part of the herd.
> They follow, and do not take any risks outside that safety zone.
> 
> Freethinkers they are not.  But even they need to be wary of the interpretations given by their "leadership" and who they allow to influence their daily lives.


If,and I believe you are, pointing that at Christians, you should take a look at the life of Christ. NOT being part of the "herd" cost Him his Life. He taught others not to follow the way of the world. He was and is totally opposite from your "herd" mentality.


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## Diogenes (Nov 27, 2009)

“But, the first examples of mass slaughtering were in the name of God or Gods . . . “

Not really – the first example of mass slaughtering was by God himself – Genesis 6:7  “And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”      Any arguments about that one folks?

Ronnie : “No longer are we able to discuss our understanding of the things we believe concerning the God that we believe in. We now, in all threads, deal with unbelievers who've come here to disrupt.”    Sir, with all due respect to your beliefs, I suspect that there is a forum just above this one, on this very site, where folks may agree, slap hands, ‘amen’ each other, quake, shake, speak in tongues, and just altogether have a good old-fashioned single-minded revival meetin’ without fear of pesky disagreement.  But – it is quite odd to step into an area devoted to ‘discussion’ if you wish to avoid viewpoints that might be at odds with your own.  And – if your ‘belief’ is so strong, and so certain, and so unshakably, factually ‘True,’ then how can such a thing possibly be ‘disrupted’?    

I mean, someone just said -- “muhammad and buddha, died and stayed dead. Jesus died and rose to sit next to the Father and Creator of all. that is truth. the Bible has been proven to be true, therefore its words are truth. if its words are truth, what it says is truth. and it condemns other worldly religions. it does not tolerate false religion... again it is truth where islam is from satan and is a lie. the koran cannot be proven but the Bible can and that is the difference. it all goes back to truth. “

So that seems to be the end of that.  And, y’know, it must be True, like the fella said, because I had a dinner party last week, and “muhammad and buddha” didn’t show up, or even RSVP.  Because they died and stayed dead, probably.  But Jesus died, and forgot to stay dead, and thank goodness he showed up – I only bought one fish, and he managed to feed everyone at the table with it . . .  Because it is True.  Really.  And it is proven.  Honest.

So how about cutting Drewski a little slack?  Defending your point of view crashes on the rocks of incredulity the moment it is asserted as the ‘One Truth.’  Belief is only that – belief – and it has only one basis – faith.  Faith is not fact, which is why the two different words exist to begin with.  

Organized religions have been responsible, and continue to be responsible, for a great deal of the world’s problems, and huge amounts of evil have been perpetrated in the name of one God or another.  Some few of those religions, and mainly individual members acting under the umbrella of their denominations, are also responsible for most if not all of the good that is done in this world.  

I’m a complete non-believer in any God, but respect the institution of religion where credit is due – the Catholic Church alone does more actual charitable work in a month than any government can claim to have done in a year, and it would be blind, closed-minded, and foolish not to see the good that some religions do and not give a tip of the hat to that work.   But, it would be equally blind and closed-minded to defend sects and factions that give us the blood in Ireland, Pakistan, Iraq, and even the U.S.  

Organized religions, all of them, are governments writ small, and seek invariably to both impose themselves and defend themselves.  Some members of the various religions, and perhaps even most, take the lessons taught by their particular Book as wisdom rather than Truth, and learn to behave properly as a result.  Other members are sociopathic idiots, and  take the Writings as literal Truth that must be carried out as written.  

We are bombarded by the rhetoric of ‘tolerance,’ and are constantly lectured that we cannot blame all of the Christians, or all of the Islamics, or all of the (Insert Sect here) for the zealous abuses of the few.  But when those abuses and atrocities are authored by and credited to the more extreme members of any sect it is only natural to treat that sect as we would treat any government – if you cannot police yourselves, then we will do it for you.  Claiming individual innocence, while actively supporting the (choose one – religion, sect, government, gang, cult, war-lord, ayatollah) of your choice does not absolve one from the evils perpetrated in the name of that cause.  

True, the tens of thousands who ran into the streets and celebrated the fall of the Trade Towers did not actively, personally, bring them down, but they cannot claim innocence.  Nor can those who throw a few dollars into the collection basket on Sunday claim credit, personally, for the good works done by those they casually support.  

So is organized religion the root of all evil?  Even a thousand years ago the answer would be emphatically yes.  Today?  Not so much.  Some zealots still feel that Satan did it, but they are in the vast minority.  In the modern world most organized religions, by my own humble observation, try very hard to link together like-minded people for the purpose of doing good works on a small scale that governments tend largely to ignore.  That work needs to be done, and is to the credit of those who seek to carry it out, whatever their reasons.  Blind adherence to dogma, however, and the support of extremists acting in the name of religions needs to be stamped out, and that can only be done either by the actual intolerance of the members (which seems to be sorely lacking) or by the heavy hand of opposition (which is, as you might notice, growing . . . ).


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## Ronnie T (Nov 27, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> “
> 
> Ronnie : “No longer are we able to *discuss our understanding of the things we believe concerning the God that we believe in.* We now, in all threads, deal with unbelievers who've come here to disrupt.”    Sir, with all due respect to your beliefs, I suspect that there is a forum just above this one, on this very site, where folks may agree, slap hands, ‘amen’ each other, quake, shake, speak in tongues, and just altogether have a good old-fashioned single-minded revival meetin’ without fear of pesky disagreement.  But – it is quite odd to step into an area devoted to ‘discussion’ if you wish to avoid viewpoints that might be at odds with your own.  And – if your ‘belief’ is so strong, and so certain, and so unshakably, factually ‘True,’ then how can such a thing possibly be ‘disrupted’?
> 
> .



We seldom discuss our beliefs, we mostly DEFEND our beliefs.
You seldom discuss anything.  You pull apart, trash, disrupt.


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## Israel (Nov 27, 2009)

It is not the organizing of religious beliefs into a system that is the real evil...but the reason men do it.
These deranged motives, to cloak our malevolence with the air of godly righteousness is precisely why Jesus came and died.
All of a man's ways seem right in his own eyes...and when we can form a backslapping  "I'm OK, you're OK" club out of what is given as truth, we betray our own perversity and deceitful dealings with the word of God.
Everything that has happened at the hand of fallen man has happened to the Lord, the Prince of life.
It is he who has borne the sorrow and exercised forbearance toward a wayward creation demonstrating by his own suffering and death his willingness to identify with us despite our betrayal. This is the meaning of the Lamb Slain from the foundation of the world, finally stepping in to time (at its fullness) to demonstrate and manifest who he has always been toward us and for us.
The depredations of religion are a symptom of man's desire to have preeminence, and fortified by his willingness to organize around that; that points to the true cause.
God gave us life to enjoy in Him and share with Him, we chose instead, like peevish and rebellious children, to say "NO!, this is mine".
And every good and perfect gift that passes through the man who has not been to the cross ends up being perverted to his own ends.


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## WTM45 (Nov 27, 2009)

Israel said:


> It is not the organizing of religious beliefs into a system that is the real evil...but the reason men do it.




Hmmmmmmmm...........


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## mtnwoman (Nov 28, 2009)

centerpin fan said:


> ... but they pale in comparison to the vile things NOT done in the name of God.
> 
> To answer the thread title:  no.



As in the holocaust?


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## mtnwoman (Nov 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> We seldom discuss our beliefs, we mostly DEFEND our beliefs.
> You seldom discuss anything.  You pull apart, trash, disrupt.



Maybe what his learned behavior has been??
God can change that.


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## mtnwoman (Nov 28, 2009)

DocHoliday said:


> Organized Religions love of your money is the root of all evil...


'

Really? So feeding hungry peeps is evil? 
I live under an organized religion that feeds and clothes the hungry and naked. So you believe that the Samaritan's Purse lead by Franklin Graham is the root of all evil?....they need your money, not love your money. Just like hungry children need your food not love your food.


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## whitworth (Nov 28, 2009)

*The Problem is fairly Simple*

It's not the religion; it's the human practicing the religion. 

The fallible human gets so close to religion and soon they begin to think that they too are perfect and "god-like".

Then pretty soon they start thinking that they have the only key to heaven.   And who can start arguing with that kind of absolute infallibility.


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## DocHoliday (Nov 28, 2009)

mtnwoman said:


> '
> 
> Really? So feeding hungry peeps is evil?
> I live under an organized religion that feeds and clothes the hungry and naked. So you believe that the Samaritan's Purse lead by Franklin Graham is the root of all evil?....they need your money, not love your money. Just like hungry children need your food not love your food.


Well I'm proud you serve such an honorable organization...


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## crackerdave (Nov 28, 2009)

whitworth said:


> It's not the religion; it's the human practicing the religion.
> 
> The fallible human gets so close to religion and soon they begin to think that they too are perfect and "god-like".
> 
> Then pretty soon they start thinking that they have the only key to heaven.   And who can start arguing with that kind of absolute infallibility.



You're right,but anybody with an honest heart knows they'll never be perfect.Only Jesus is/was perfect,and only _He_ holds that key you speak of. [John 14:6]
We are  - every one of us - fallible humans,Christian or not.


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## Diogenes (Nov 29, 2009)

“We seldom discuss our beliefs, we mostly DEFEND our beliefs.”

So it seems.  And that is perfectly understandable.  Much, if not most of it, makes no real sense whatsoever, and I can see that it must be exhausting to keep it up and have to continually shift gears to respond to new developments.  Now, some folks think that the Amish have the right idea – to retreat ever deeper into their ‘beliefs,’ and allow the rest of the world to do as they wish – but, honestly, is ‘belief’ really worth giving up electricity for?

I actually try to discuss things, but it is not often possible --  because, like all zealots, the default reaction to any question or observation is a flood of orthodoxy and Bible verse and righteous outrage.  That sort of thing isn’t a discussion – it is attempting to hit disagreement over the head with a single Book, and I reject that sort of ‘argument’ out of hand.  

I’m not making anything up out of whole cloth – I’m just telling you about it – for example: dozens of parts of the Bible are internally contradictory.  Period.  All of the Biblical story of Creation has been thoroughly discredited.  Period.  Noah didn’t preserve all of the Earth’s creatures by herding them onto a big boat, two by two.  Period.  Nobody at all ever parted the Red Sea.  Period.  And Lot’s wife?  That brat got exactly what she deserved, disrespecting her man like that – what, did she think she could be the first feminist?  Scandalous . . . 

My point, you might notice, is that healthy disagreement and a bit of free thinking is the actual basis of a real discussion.  If one’s position is so unshakable that it can tolerate no questioning, then perhaps it is not those asking the questions who need to examine their positions.  Your Earth may be flat, the universe may revolve around it, the invisible may be visible, the imponderable may be certain, the undiscovered may be fully known, and all things in all areas may be fully settled and known to you alone.  

My Earth is round, chaotic, largely unexplored, surrounded by uncertainties, often confusing, and not contained or defined within a single Book, but never boring . . .  Entertaining as all get out, but never boring . . .


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 29, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> I actually try to discuss things, but it is not often possible --  because, like all zealots, the default reaction to any question or observation is a flood of orthodoxy and Bible verse and righteous outrage.  That sort of thing isn’t a discussion – it is attempting to hit disagreement over the head with a single Book, and I reject that sort of ‘argument’ out of hand.



And what of your unwillingness to budge on the existence of a God? You cling to your non-belief as vehemently as a believer. 
I could argue you are attempting to hit disagreement over the head with your own ideas of the non-existence of God.


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## Diogenes (Nov 29, 2009)

Shooter – I admit that it may appear that way, but that is not my intent.  You’ll notice that I have no fall-back position, and do not continually retreat into verses from any source at all when challenged.  I’ll stand, even when surrounded . . .

It is not my ‘mission’ to convert anyone, and so I have no position to forward and none to defend.  My ‘non-belief’ is well examined, well-thought, well researched, and is by no means ‘vehement.’  It is simply the conclusion I have reached by spending a lifetime examining the questions.  If I appear to get a bit testy when someone quotes me a passage from Sunday’s sermon as their only thought, well, c’mon – that is the same as saying that you are just following orders . . . I thought we were here to actually talk about it . . . 

The hostility of the zealots towards actually, honestly, and objectively discussing some of the problems that are raised here is off-putting, and often astounding.  In quiet reflection, even the most fervent and vociferous of the ‘believers’ admit that they also struggle privately with matters of Faith – yet, publicly, they lock hands, close ranks, and exhibit a mob mentality when asked to speak of those questions aloud.  On one level that is understandable, but in a forum such as this, which is designed to give relative anonymity to the speaker and to encourage an honest discussion, the lack of candid thoughts is quite discouraging.  The positions taken here are party-line, too often, and display a take-it-or-leave-it attitude that is totalitarian and brooks no disagreement.  

That is unhealthy, and makes a mockery of the entire idea of the forum itself.  Nearly everyone here tells me at every turn that I am wrong.  Okay.  I’ve been wrong before.  I will be again.  But how is it that they cannot be wrong?  Where is the ‘discussion’ in that?


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## Israel (Nov 29, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Shooter – I admit that it may appear that way, but that is not my intent.  You’ll notice that I have no fall-back position, and do not continually retreat into verses from any source at all when challenged.  I’ll stand, even when surrounded . . .
> 
> It is not my ‘mission’ to convert anyone, and so I have no position to forward and none to defend.  My ‘non-belief’ is well examined, well-thought, well researched, and is by no means ‘vehement.’  It is simply the conclusion I have reached by spending a lifetime examining the questions.  If I appear to get a bit testy when someone quotes me a passage from Sunday’s sermon as their only thought, well, c’mon – that is the same as saying that you are just following orders . . . I thought we were here to actually talk about it . . .
> 
> ...



We are all wrong in our striving to be right.


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## crackerdave (Nov 29, 2009)

For me,God's Word is truth. I have never and _will_ never be foolish enough to say I "cannot be wrong," but I will stand firm on God's truth and wisdom.There is no man who is even _close_ to being His equal,much less His superior. Satan,who once was an angel of God,somehow got it in his head that he would be superior to God - look where it got _him!_


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## ddd-shooter (Nov 29, 2009)

The only one who had his theology perfectly correct was crucified. I can admit readily I do not know everything. 
I am often stunned by how little I know.


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## The Original Rooster (Nov 30, 2009)

I seldom take hard stands on this forum (what's the point?) but I'm feeling froggy tonight so I'm going to jump.

Everyone is wrong. If religion was erased from the mind of every human on earth, evil would continue on just as it did before. If money ceased to exist, evil would continue on. When you dig down to the root cause of the matter, fear is the root of all evil.


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## Roberson (Nov 30, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> I seldom take hard stands on this forum (what's the point?) but I'm feeling froggy tonight so I'm going to jump.
> 
> Everyone is wrong. If religion was erased from the mind of every human on earth, evil would continue on just as it did before. If money ceased to exist, evil would continue on. When you dig down to the root cause of the matter, fear is the root of all evil.


You are correct, sir. Well put.


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## Israel (Dec 1, 2009)

Religion, like Wall Street, holds out the promise of return to the garden without facing the flaming sword.

The cross is the way to life, the dying of your own desire and will, the way to heaven.


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## crackerdave (Dec 1, 2009)

In too many cases,"organized religion" is turning more people _away_ from God than towards Him. Satan knows exactly where the weaknesses are and how to exploit those weaknesses for his purposes.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 1, 2009)

All of this being said, the church itself must be organized.
It was in the first century.
Ephesus worked with Jerusalem.
But the church is to be united.

*James 1:27*
Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world

Some have kinda changed that definition haven't they?


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> I seldom take hard stands on this forum (what's the point?) but I'm feeling froggy tonight so I'm going to jump.
> 
> Everyone is wrong. If religion was erased from the mind of every human on earth, evil would continue on just as it did before. If money ceased to exist, evil would continue on. When you dig down to the root cause of the matter, fear is the root of all evil.




I think "Self Preservation" is the root of all "evil".   I believe that evil is a construct.  

Does anyone want to play "discuss" with me?


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I think "Self Preservation" is the root of all "evil".   I believe that evil is a construct.
> 
> Does anyone want to play "discuss" with me?



Interesting you say that, as Science has put forth the idea that self-preservation is a driving force in all beings...


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Interesting you say that, as Science has put forth the idea that self-preservation is a driving force in all beings...



Hence, someone's conclusion that "all are born sinful".  Would Sinful be synonymous with evil in that case?


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 1, 2009)

That was my point...
5 points for you! lol


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> That was my point...
> 5 points for you! lol



Then we both understand how these notions get made up.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 1, 2009)

Ok. Explain your "evil is a construct" statement further, if that is ok.


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> And what of your unwillingness to budge on the existence of a God? You cling to your non-belief as vehemently as a believer.




This is a ridiculous argument that is used too often in here. Do I have to cling to the belief that there are NOT invisible firetrucks flying around my house? Do I have to cling to the belief that there are NOT invisible unicorns sitting on my couch?

NO. Come on, it's not clinging to a belief that something doesn't exist, it's just plain old not believing. Do you have to cling to some belief that the deer aren't packing their stuff into flying spaceships and leaving the woods when you climb your stand? No, you just know that without seeing something as ridiculous as that you don't believe it to be true.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 1, 2009)

Dio had said he was open to new debate. I brought up the notion that he was only open to things that did not include the existence of God...


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Ok. Explain your "evil is a construct" statement further, if that is ok.



Can we agree to use this definition?:

_4. 	an image, idea, or theory, esp. a complex one formed from a number of simpler elements._

Attributing a natural behavior to the plotting of a winged demon is a good example of a construct.


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## BeenHuntn (Dec 1, 2009)

Israel said:


> Religion, like Wall Street, holds out the promise of return to the garden without facing the flaming sword.
> 
> The cross is the way to life, the dying of your own desire and will, the way to heaven.



i am with israel on this one...

is "religion" used in a positive or negative sense in the Bible? its menyioned only 5 times and only 1 of those times positively...

1.Acts 26:5
Which knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that after the most straitest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee. (negative)

2.Galatians 1:13
For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: (negative)

3.Galatians 1:14
And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers. (negative)

4.James 1:26
If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. (neutral)

5.James 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
(positive.. but he said "pure religion")...

true Christianity is not religion. when all of the "religions" of the world are evil and agaisnt God... why would we call the Truth of Christ, religion?  Christ never even used the word religion.

Christ is about Truth, the Word, obedience and discipleship... not about religion...


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## Israel (Dec 1, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I think "Self Preservation" is the root of all "evil".   I believe that evil is a construct.
> 
> Does anyone want to play "discuss" with me?



You pretty much agree with Jesus on that one.
The "self" can only be effectively dealt with by the cross. The impetus to go there is faith in life apart from that self.


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## ambush80 (Dec 1, 2009)

Israel said:


> You pretty much agree with Jesus on that one.
> The "self" can only be effectively dealt with by the cross. The impetus to go there is faith in life apart from that self.



I prefer the self preservation instinct be tempered by reason.  The impetus to go there should be "it makes sense".


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## crackerdave (Dec 1, 2009)

I learned a long time ago - God's sense is better than mine or any other puny lil' ol' _human!_


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## Diogenes (Dec 2, 2009)

“Dio had said he was open to new debate. I brought up the notion that he was only open to things that did not include the existence of God...”

Um, no, you said this, as a challenging question – “And what of your unwillingness to budge on the existence of a God?”  And I answered that honestly --  nearly every ‘discussion’ devolves into Bible verse, (witness BeenHuntin, on his soapbox, just above), as the only basis for reference.  

So even if one were to posit or allow the existence of a God, that argument is also continually preempted --  because there is only BeenHuntin’s God, or gt parts God, or Your God, or CH’s God, to use only a few examples, and even you guys can’t agree amongst yourselves.  The mere fact of internal disagreement over your own deity demonstrates that Faith is unreliable, and is different for each observer.

‘Construct:’  

Religion, as demonstrated even here, is politics, subject to the interpretations and point of view of each – and that is completely inconsistent with any contention by anyone at all that there might be One God who clearly spoke to anyone at all.  A God cannot be ambiguous, unless one is making things up to suit oneself.  And so, yes – religions, by deciding each for themselves that they alone hold the One Truth are, actually, the expression of everything that is wrong – ‘evil’ is little more than some random fool deciding that he alone is right, and seeking to force everyone else to do his will.  ‘Constructing’ for the purpose of personal power.

Absolving yourselves by positing an opposite to your God, and naming him Satan, and blaming your own faults on him, is so ridiculous and pathological and childish by way of avoiding even a shred of personal responsibility that religion, by this technique not only justifies ‘evil’ but explains it to themselves.  It isn’t your fault, after all – Satan made you do it. (Creating an ‘out’ that justifies you, out of nothing – a ‘construct.’)  

C’mon.  What is ‘evil’ and what is not is a series of justifications that change every few years, changes nation to nation, culture to culture, and hinges entirely on a societal point of view.  The Romans tossed naked, unarmed slaves into an arena to face wild animals and armed gladiators for the entertainment of the masses.  People accused of ‘witchcraft’ were burned alive even in America.  Thieves in some places even today are punished by the loss of a hand.  An unmarried fifteen-year-old girl, even two centuries ago, was considered an old maid, where now such a thing carries a prison sentence.  Women are punished for showing their ankles, and worse for showing their face – today.  Taking multiple wives, and keeping harems of slaves was perfectly accepted and sanctioned, where today that would serve a life sentence.  Evil, the point is, lies entirely with the definition society places upon it.  There is no independent scale upon which to measure such things.  Each society of men constructs their own scale.  

Historically, you might notice that the definition of what is evil and what is not, and the societal laws and punishments thus handed down, fell largely upon a small cabal of ‘High Priests’ who ‘interpreted’ the Gods of the day.  The fact that people blindly obeyed was not lost on those who sought to be the ‘High Priests’, and the abuses of that power is the larger story of human history in nearly every age and in nearly every culture.

So, yes, in most senses, religion is the ‘root’ of evil, if only because religion alone seeks to define evil to suit their own causes and interests of the moment, and enforce those whims with pretty odd punishments.  An independent God might have cleared thing up into a single set of ideas, and maybe said something like – “Yo, folks?  Tying folks you don’t like to a stake and burning them alive as witches is pretty evil, so don’t do that, okay?”

I looked, and your particular Book doesn’t say anything like that.  So knock off the smug superiority and the pretense that religion, and yours in particular, holds some sort of moral high ground – you ‘religious’ folks are the ones who claim the ability to decide what is evil and what is not, so you have actually created the ghost you claim to fight, and keep redefining it to suit yourselves.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 2, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> So knock off the smug superiority



Gotta be the best one-liner I have ever heard coming from you...

No offense, but your writing style lends one to think you are smug about your superiority. 

So maybe you are saying that by defining evil, we created evil?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Gotta be the best one-liner I have ever heard coming from you...
> 
> No offense, but your writing style lends one to think you are smug about your superiority.
> 
> So maybe you are saying that by defining evil, we created evil?



I believe he possesses superior smugness.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Gotta be the best one-liner I have ever heard coming from you...
> 
> No offense, but your writing style lends one to think you are smug about your superiority.
> 
> So maybe you are saying that by defining evil, we created evil?



Though voluminous, I think his posts are as concise as they can be; considering the complexity of the ideas that they express.  There's no book for Atheists to point to and simply say "It's true because it says so in this here book", or that they can cut and paste verses from.

The behaviors exist.  Calling them Evil attaches a lot of inferences to them that may not be accurate.


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## Melvin4730 (Dec 2, 2009)

God has given us many amazing gifts. One of the most powerful gifts is "Free Will". With this many amazingly good things can be accomplished. Also, with this many amazingly terrible and painful things can be accomplished.

If a man breaks into a home and kills the Cristian family living there. Society ask...why would God allow this to happen to the family of believers. God gives us free will. That murder also has free will to do as he pleases.

The same thing happens in religious circles. People have to make personal choices and God has giving them Free Will to do so.


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

Melvin4730 said:


> If a man breaks into a home and kills the Cristian family living there. Society ask...why would God allow this to happen to the family of believers. God gives us free will. That murder also has free will to do as he pleases.



So, if your god is all powerful, is this sort of thing just entertaining to him? Why doesn't he step in and help the people who are worshiping him? Sounds like he's pretty mean-spirited.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 2, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> So, if your god is all powerful, is this sort of thing just entertaining to him? Why doesn't he step in and help the people who are worshiping him? Sounds like he's pretty mean-spirited.



Lol   He helps me...all the time.   Stage 3 melanoma 15 years ago....the gods at Shane's said "this will take you out"....but, alas, still breathing and waking up every day.    

When God created man, 'they' had a choice...make men zombies (no offense heavymetal) who had no choice but to serve, or (as all of us would probably prefer) create man and give him the choice to serve.   I prefer that my wife and children choose to love me....rather than force them if I could.   

today, some men choose to trust Him, others do not.   Free will.


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

But you're not omnipotent so you couldn't force your wife and children to love you.

Let me ask you this - If you WERE omnipotent and knew that one of your kids was going to kill the other, would you intervene, or just chalk it up to "free will?"

It seems to me that any reasonable being who is legitimately omnipotent would step in to protect his "kids" especially if they were continually worshiping and professing their love for said being.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 2, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> But you're not omnipotent so you couldn't force your wife and children to love you.
> 
> Let me ask you this - If you WERE omnipotent and knew that one of your kids was going to kill the other, would you intervene, or just chalk it up to "free will?"
> 
> It seems to me that any reasonable being who is legitimately omnipotent would step in to protect his "kids" especially if they were continually worshiping and professing their love for said being.



Hmmmm....it wouldnt' be Free Will if I stepped in all the time!      When I chose to give my kids free choice in life, it would be a risk that I was willing to take, no matter what the outcome.   Anything less would not be free will.


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

So if you knew someone was going to kill you child and you COULD step in and prevent it, you would not?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 2, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> So if you knew someone was going to kill you child and you COULD step in and prevent it, you would not?



Of course I would!   What parent wouldn't?    But, I'm not going to walk around and babysit my child 24/7 to make sure he doesn't make mistakes.   I know he will make mistakes, some costly, but I have to let him live his life.   That's what God does....tells us what is wrong and right, and leaves it up to us to choose our path.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Hmmmm....it wouldnt' be Free Will if I stepped in all the time!      When I chose to give my kids free choice in life, it would be a risk that I was willing to take, no matter what the outcome.   Anything less would not be free will.



If you were all knowing, then you would have known that one of your kids was going to kill the other one. In fact, you would have known the date of their birth, death and the number of hairs on their heads.  You would have also known, before they were born, mind you, whether or not they were going to Heaven or He!!.

They can't, by default, make any choices because they will do exactly what you had foreseen at every turn.

If you knew since the beginning of time that they were going to He!!, then it doesn't matter what they do doing their lifetime because everything they do, they were going to do no matter what.  They will go just exactly where you had foreseen them going, yes?


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

Yes, but the difference is that this god is ALLEGEDLY omnipotent, as well as omniscient. So, you would think that if he
A) Knows EVERYTHING
B) Can do ANYTHING
C) Loves UNCONDITIONALLY
he would keep all of his worshiping sheep safe.

To explain this lack of action away with this "free will" nonsense seems like a state of denial that god does not actually care or do anything to help humans.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> Yes, but the difference is that this god is ALLEGEDLY omnipotent, as well as omniscient. So, you would think that if he
> A) Knows EVERYTHING
> B) Can do ANYTHING
> C) Loves UNCONDITIONALLY
> ...



There is no act of "helping".   If I fell on the sidewalk and you were passing me, God knows whether you are going to help me up or not.  You don't have a choice.  You will do exactly what was foreseen.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> If you were all knowing, then you would have known that one of your kids was going to kill the other one. In fact, you would have known the date of their birth, death and the number of hairs on their heads.  You would have also known, before they were born, mind you, whether or not they were going to Heaven or He!!.
> 
> They can't, by default, make any choices because they will do exactly what you had foreseen at every turn.
> 
> If you knew since the beginning of time that they were going to He!!, then it doesn't matter what they do doing their lifetime because everything they do, they were going to do no matter what.  They will go just exactly where you had foreseen them going, yes?



LOL   Are you listening to yourself?   knowing what someone will do has nothing to do with their choices.   Let's say God knows what I'll eat for lunch tomorrow....does that mean that when I go down to the cafeteria I won't be able to choose what I want to eat?  Or will I be a zombie, forced to eat a certain thing...even if I don't want to?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> There is no act of "helping".   If I fell on the sidewalk and you were passing me, God knows whether you are going to help me up or not.  You don't have a choice.  You will do exactly what was foreseen.



Am I the only one that this isn't making sense to?


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> LOL   Are you listening to yourself?   knowing what someone will do has nothing to do with their choices.   Let's say God knows what I'll eat for lunch tomorrow....does that mean that when I go down to the cafeteria I won't be able to choose what I want to eat?  Or will I be a zombie, forced to eat a certain thing...even if I don't want to?



Are you going to eat anything that God has not foreseen you eating?


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

Will he ever be surprised by what you ate?


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

Well, heck then, if god already knows what's going to happen, why doesn't he prevent bad things from happening? Entertainment? 

I know sometimes I get a kick out of watching the puppy bother the big dog and get then get nipped at. Do I have the power to prevent it? Yes. Do I get a kick out of watching it? Sure.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Are you going to eat anything that God has not foreseen you eating?



That's what I'm saying....he may know what I'll choose to eat, but it doesn't mean I didn't have a choice.   I have unlimited choices.

What you guys are saying is illogical...or am I missing something?


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> That's what I'm saying....he may know what I'll choose to eat, but it doesn't mean I didn't have a choice.   I have unlimited choices.
> 
> What you guys are saying is illogical...or am I missing something?



You think you have a choice.  It appears that way from your uninformed position (not being omniscient).  To a God, you were going to do exactly what was foretold.  If God told me that on August 17th, 2015 at 4:27 PM EST that you were going to blow your brains out.  Is there any chance that you won't?  I'm sure as you sat there in those final moments it seemed to you like you are making a choice; but God and I know that your fate is sealed.  See what I'm saying?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> There is no act of "helping".   If I fell on the sidewalk and you were passing me, God knows whether you are going to help me up or not.  You don't have a choice.  You will do exactly what was foreseen.



Not true.
Mankind has choices to make.
That's why, in the end, we'll be judged on our deeds.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Not true.
> Mankind has choices to make.
> That's why, in the end, we'll be judged on our deeds.



You will do exactly what has been foretold.  No deviation.


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

Ok, so new question that just popped in my head. 

If god knows everything, as in he knows every soul that will ever exist, what choices those souls will make, where they will end up, etc., why don't we just skip to the end, or "judgement day", so all the souls can be where they are supposed to be? Why all the "filler" of life if everything is already written in stone?


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> Ok, so new question that just popped in my head.
> 
> If god knows everything, as in he knows every soul that will ever exist, what choices those souls will make, where they will end up, etc., why don't we just skip to the end, or "judgement day", so all the souls can be where they are supposed to be? Why all the "filler" of life if everything is already written in stone?



See, here's the thing.  If you believe that there is an omniscient being, then you MUST accept that everything you do is foretold.  That frees you from accountability.  Look at some previous threads about "The Elect".

When Heavymetalhunter needles a Christian, he's doing exactly what was foretold.  He can do nothing else;   so long as an omniscient being exists.  If no such being exists, then Heavy is responsible for his actions.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> See, here's the thing.  If you believe that there is an omniscient being, then you MUST accept that everything you do is foretold.  That frees you from accountability.  Look at some previous threads about "The Elect".
> 
> When Heavymetalhunter needles a Christian, he's doing exactly what was foretold.  He can do nothing else;   so long as an omniscient being exists.  If no such being exists, then Heavy is responsible for his actions.



Wrong! This goes back to the "Free Will" thread. You're responsible for what you do, so don't blame God or anyone else. Fear is the root of all evil. If everyone would think about it until they agreed with me, they'd see I was right. See my earlier post, learn it, know it, live it.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Wrong! This goes back to the "Free Will" thread. You're responsible for what you do, so don't blame God or anyone else. Fear is the root of all evil. If everyone would think about it until they agreed with me, they'd see I was right. See my earlier post, learn it, know it, live it.



No omniscience, no predestination.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> You will do exactly what has been foretold.  No deviation.



Nope!  Not the ways God works.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> No omniscience, no predestination.



Alright now, you've got to get this straight. You said in the "Free Will" thread that you controlled your own actions. Which one is it? You're confusing me, which is not difficult to do.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 2, 2009)

I don't want to get too involved in this discussion but God could care less if I put cream in my coffee this morning.

At God's chosing, He can do and know.  
Life for humans and all others living beings is all about making decisions and dealing with life.
If the decisions were already made, life would be simple.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

RoosterTodd said:


> Alright now, you've got to get this straight. You said in the "Free Will" thread that you controlled your own actions. Which one is it? You're confusing me, which is not difficult to do.



I don't believe in an omniscient being, therefore everything I do is a surprise to everyone, including myself.  No one knows when or how I'm going to die, what I'm going to have for lunch or if I'm going to hit my knees and beg for mercy.  No one.

If someone does know, then I'll do exactly what they have foreseen. Know what I mean?


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I don't want to get too involved in this discussion but God could care less if I put cream in my coffee this morning.
> 
> At God's chosing, He can do and know.
> Life for humans and all others living beings is all about making decisions and dealing with life.
> If the decisions were already made, life would be simple.



Not necessarily.  We don't know what happens, even if a Man in the Sky does.  To us, while holding a gun to our temple, we agonize just the same. 

What's relevant, if one were to believe in an omniscient being, is that one must necessarily conclude that if you pull the trigger and the gun misfires,  the omniscient being knew it would.  Though you "chose" to blow your head open, it was never gonna happen.


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## ambush80 (Dec 2, 2009)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Lol   He helps me...all the time.   Stage 3 melanoma 15 years ago....the gods at Shane's said "this will take you out"....but, alas, still breathing and waking up every day.
> 
> When God created man, 'they' had a choice...make men zombies (no offense heavymetal) who had no choice but to serve, or (as all of us would probably prefer) create man and give him the choice to serve.   I prefer that my wife and children choose to love me....rather than force them if I could.
> 
> today, some men choose to trust Him, others do not.   Free will.



I'm truly glad that you survived.  People pray to be healed from much less severe inflictions and end up dying.  Some sick people don't pray and get healed, some die.  What's the difference besides your perception of what happened?

I thought we weren't supposed to try to apply our standards to God.


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## grizzlyblake (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Not necessarily.  We don't know what happens, even if a Man in the Sky does.  To us, while holding a gun to our temple, we agonize just the same.
> 
> What's relevant, if one were to believe in an omniscient being, is that one must necessarily conclude that if you pull the trigger and the gun misfires,  the omniscient being knew it would.  Though you "chose" to blow your head open, it was never gonna happen.



I see what you're getting at here. It's sort of like watching a movie for the second time around. You know what's going to happen but everyone in the movie is still having real life "choices" to them.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Not necessarily.  We don't know what happens, even if a Man in the Sky does.  To us, while holding a gun to our temple, we agonize just the same.
> 
> What's relevant, if one were to believe in an omniscient being, is that one must necessarily conclude that if you pull the trigger and the gun misfires,  the omniscient being knew it would.  Though you "chose" to blow your head open, it was never gonna happen.



Your comment #134 causes me to wonder why you would even bother making these comments.
Seems to me you are on the wrong website discussing the wrong subject.
How can you expect to discuss a subject you don't even believe in??
Don't you know that you cannot understand our point of view no matter how you try?  And I can't understand yours.
That doesn't make for debate...... that's futility.


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## ddd-shooter (Dec 2, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> But you're not omnipotent so you couldn't force your wife and children to love you.
> 
> Let me ask you this - If you WERE omnipotent and knew that one of your kids was going to kill the other, would you intervene, or just chalk it up to "free will?"
> 
> It seems to me that any reasonable being who is legitimately omnipotent would step in to protect his "kids" especially if they were continually worshiping and professing their love for said being.



Let me ask you something. 
If your wife was the only woman on the earth, would you have a choice in loving her? 
How would you prove your love to her? How would she know if you were faithful? 

I think God knew the potential we had as humans when he created us. I think God gives us the chance to choose life or death everyday.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Your comment #134 causes me to wonder why you would even bother making these comments.
> Seems to me you are on the wrong website discussing the wrong subject.
> How can you expect to discuss a subject you don't even believe in??
> Don't you know that you cannot understand our point of view no matter how you try?  And I can't understand yours.
> That doesn't make for debate...... that's futility.



Intellectual exercise.  I can presuppose a God and give him qualities that have been described to me by those that believe in him.  What I'm doing is observing what happens when the idea of God runs afoul of logic.  Different people resolve the conflict differently.  Some of the resolutions are interesting and thought provoking.

I think I understand your point of view (spiritual) quite well.  I think you also use a different point of view (secular) for other situations.  I'm fascinated by what happens when the different points of view contradict.

You understand my point of view clearly as well.  You see, hear, taste, touch and add integers just like I do.  You understand things like:  if A=B and B=C then A=C just like I do.   The scenarios that i put forth about predestination are like that.  "If this is to this, as this is to this, then this is this".  Logic.   You know how it works.   

I'm discussing about where the two ideas meet.  It's good to think.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> I see what you're getting at here. It's sort of like watching a movie for the second time around. You know what's going to happen but everyone in the movie is still having real life "choices" to them.



...and BINGO was his name-o.


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## Diogenes (Dec 3, 2009)

“If your wife was the only woman on the earth, would you have a choice in loving her?”   Now that’s funny right there . . . 

Eve, according to the story, WAS the only woman on earth, and oddly enough, her sons, Cain and Abel, managed to populate the entire Earth . . . Now THAT is love, right there . . . Not currently legal love, except in parts of Tennessee and West Virginia, but love just the same . . .


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## BeenHuntn (Dec 3, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> “If your wife was the only woman on the earth, would you have a choice in loving her?”   Now that’s funny right there . . .
> 
> Eve, according to the story, WAS the only woman on earth, and oddly enough, her sons, Cain and Abel, managed to populate the entire Earth . . . Now THAT is love, right there . . . Not currently legal love, except in parts of Tennessee and West Virginia, but love just the same . . .



this is ignorance at its finest folks....


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

grizzlyblake said:


> I see what you're getting at here. It's sort of like watching a movie for the second time around. You know what's going to happen but everyone in the movie is still having real life "choices" to them.



Do you think God and an angel were sitting around admiring His brand new people when the angel asked "Do you think she's gonna eat the apple?".   I can picture God with a smirk replying "Who do you think you're talking to?"


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> this is ignorance at its finest folks....



They had two choices. Parents or siblings.  What else was there?


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## BeenHuntn (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> They had two choices. Parents or siblings.  What else was there?



uh, siblings...  

adam and eve lived to be like 900 + years...

there was no incest then...


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> uh, siblings...
> 
> adam and eve lived to be like 900 + years...
> 
> there was no incest then...



What did they call it back then?


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## BeenHuntn (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> What did they call it back then?



it was the will of God... they called it nothing. it was God's
plan to populate the earth,,, they called it... nothing!


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## Israel (Dec 3, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> it was the will of God... they called it nothing. it was God's
> plan to populate the earth,,, they called it... nothing!



As we should also look at faith in Jesus Christ...
It makes us nothing "better", gives us no authority to form our own clubs and clubhouses and post our names over them, perhaps having no permission to have any attitude but this...
 It is simply normal to believe in God and obey him through Jesus Christ the Lord.


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## gtparts (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> If you were all knowing, then you would have known that one of your kids was going to kill the other one. In fact, you would have known the date of their birth, death and the number of hairs on their heads.  You would have also known, before they were born, mind you, whether or not they were going to Heaven or He!!.
> 
> They can't, by default, make any choices because they will do exactly what you had foreseen at every turn.
> 
> If you knew since the beginning of time that they were going to He!!, then it doesn't matter what they do doing their lifetime because everything they do, they were going to do no matter what.  They will go just exactly where you had foreseen them going, yes?



You still can't wrap your mind around the simple truth that foreknowledge is not predestination. You, grizz, and dio (as well as others) keep attributing human characteristics to God.  The distinctions between God and man are every bit as significant as the similarities. Because God is aware of the choices all of us will make, even down to which side of our mouth we will place a toothpick, He doesn't cause us to do so. Suppose you could travel through time to the future, watched the 2010 Kentucky Derby and returned. Would the simple fact that you were aware of the order of finish in the present be the cause of that order of finish in the upcoming race? God has ordained the free will of man and He will not violate it. When we make a choice, the consequences are ours to face, whether good or bad. In the world that we corrupted, we all face good and bad, and God is there to help His own get through it. In His infinite wisdom and mercy, He is constantly at work to influence our choices. Some hear and obey. Some hear, yet disobey. And some, they are so self-absorbed that they will not hear at all.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

BeenHuntn said:


> it was the will of God... they called it nothing. it was God's
> plan to populate the earth,,, they called it... nothing!




Did you know that incest is the only taboo shared by ALL cultures around the world?


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## gtparts (Dec 3, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> “If your wife was the only woman on the earth, would you have a choice in loving her?”   Now that’s funny right there . . .
> 
> Eve, according to the story, WAS the only woman on earth, and oddly enough, her sons, Cain and Abel, managed to populate the entire Earth . . . Now THAT is love, right there . . . Not currently legal love, except in parts of Tennessee and West Virginia, but love just the same . . .



You seem to have a problem distinguishing between the emotion we call _love_ and the sex act we similarly call _love_. For the sake of clarity, we need to make an effort in that direction. Otherwise, some will find your post too confusing to understand or respond to appropriately. 

Could you clean this up some?


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## gtparts (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Did you know that incest is the only taboo shared by ALL cultures around the world?



Did you know the avg. human head weighs 8lbs?

What is your point?


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Did you know the avg. human head weighs 8lbs?
> 
> What is your point?



Just pointing out another example of where something that I understand to be fact is contradicted by scripture.


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## CRT (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Just pointing out another example of where something that I understand to be fact is contradicted by scripture.



So you know enough about EVERY culture that exist in the world today to know they ALL consider inscest taboo??

Wow, you are a wellspring of knowledge. Do you also happen  know the name of the flea on the back of the Tibetan yak? I'm hoping it's Yao, but my friend swears it's Billy Ray.


Thanks.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> So you know enough about EVERY culture that exist in the world today to know they ALL consider inscest taboo??
> 
> Wow, you are a wellspring of knowledge. Do you also happen  know the name of the flea on the back of the Tibetan yak? I'm hoping it's Yao, but my friend swears it's Billy Ray.
> 
> ...



Someone did research about taboos.  Read a book...I mean a different book.  I don't know everything, but I know about this, now that I've been informed.  Don't be afraid of information.  It's your friend.


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## CRT (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Someone did research about taboos.  Read a book...I mean a different book.  I don't know everything, but I know about this, now that I've been informed.  Don't be afraid of information.  It's your friend.



Thanks for the tip.


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## ambush80 (Dec 3, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Thanks for the tip.



So, now that you have new information, how do you feel about the fact that every culture has a taboo against incest yet it was God's preferred method of populating the Earth?


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## CRT (Dec 3, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> So, now that you have new information, how do you feel about the fact that every culture has a taboo against incest yet it was God's preferred method of populating the Earth?



Based on Scripture, I don't think incest was forbade until Leviticus. And I think the main reason it was forbade was due to genetics. I'm no expert in genetics, but aren't there very serious biological dangers when inbreeding occurs? That's why God forbade it and why every (according to you) culture has a taboo against it.

FWIW, if evolution is how we got here, there would have to have been some incest going on for the earth to be populated as well. So it would have been a normal even necessary occurence. So how did the taboo develop. Scripture says that God's law is written on our hearts. Of course you wouldn't buy that.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Based on Scripture, I don't think incest was forbade until Leviticus. And I think the main reason it was forbade was due to genetics. I'm no expert in genetics, but aren't there very serious biological dangers when inbreeding occurs? That's why God forbade it and why every (according to you) culture has a taboo against it.
> 
> FWIW, if evolution is how we got here, there would have to have been some incest going on for the earth to be populated as well. So it would have been a normal even necessary occurence. So how did the taboo develop. Scripture says that God's law is written on our hearts. Of course you wouldn't buy that.



Do you know how evolution works?   There wasn't just 1 man and 1 woman.  That should tip you off right there to how silly Genesis is.


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## CRT (Dec 4, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Do you know how evolution works?   There wasn't just 1 man and 1 woman.  That should tip you off right there to how silly Genesis is.




Ha, ha. Duh. I didn't say anything about 1 man and 1 woman. But I didn't really expect a response that did not attack my intelligence or try to point out my lack thereof.

Also, why would incest be taboo among humans, when animals have no problem copulating with close relatives?


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Ha, ha. Duh. I didn't say anything about 1 man and 1 woman. But I didn't really expect a response that did not attack my intelligence or try to point out my lack thereof.
> 
> Also, why would incest be taboo among humans, when animals have no problem copulating with close relatives?



I wasn't attacking your intelligence.  It just seemed like you thought evolution started with just 2 "monkeys".

We should get something straight right here.  Man didn't evolve from monkeys.  Monkeys and men evolved from a common ancestor.  A hominid.  

You can successfully breed with your sister. It causes potential problems on down the line.  I imagine people figured this out and called it "bad", like eating rotten fish.   That's why it's so funny that the writers of the Bible would even consider using incest as the preferred method of populating the planet.  Have you ever considered that Genesis is a metaphor?


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## CRT (Dec 4, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I wasn't attacking your intelligence.  It just seemed like you thought evolution started with just 2 "monkeys".
> 
> We should get something straight right here.  Man didn't evolve from monkeys.  Monkeys and men evolved from a common ancestor.  A hominid.
> 
> You can successfully breed with your sister. It causes potential problems on down the line.  I imagine people figured this out and called it "bad", like eating rotten fish.   That's why it's so funny that the writers of the Bible would even consider using incest as the preferred method of populating the planet.  Have you ever considered that Genesis is a metaphor?



I haven't ever considered Genesis as a metaphor. Could you explain it to me?

And the two monkeys thing was funny. And I understand you weren't trying to insult me, you just genuinely think I'm stupid. 

And you're probably right.


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> I haven't ever considered Genesis as a metaphor. Could you explain it to me?



As opposed to Adam and Eve being two real, individual people, they were a metaphor for primitive men and women.



5pointCal said:


> And the two monkeys thing was funny. And I understand you weren't trying to insult me, you just genuinely think I'm stupid.
> 
> And you're probably right.



You don't seem stupid.   I was just trying to clarify whether or not we understand Evolution the same way.


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## CRT (Dec 4, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> As opposed to Adam and Eve being two real, individual people, they were a metaphor for primitive men and women.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > As opposed to Adam and Eve being two real, individual people, they were a metaphor for primitive men and women.
> ...


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## CRT (Dec 4, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> 5pointCal said:
> 
> 
> > ambush80 said:
> ...


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## ambush80 (Dec 4, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> ambush80 said:
> 
> 
> > 5pointCal said:
> ...


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## CRT (Dec 4, 2009)

I'm speaking of being a fool in the eye's of those who don't understand how anyone with a brain could believe what they believe to be nonsense. 

Honestly, there are still many things I question about the God of the Bible. Some of them are tough questions, but I don't really think that He minds the questions as He's big enough to handle them. And I'm sure I'm not asking anything that someone much smarter than me hasn't already asked Him. However, I still believe what the Bible says about Him, because of the things I can understand, I have found them to be true. He has changed my life, and so if it means being thought of as a fool to believe, love, and worship Him, then I'll be a fool.


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## Israel (Dec 4, 2009)

There almost seems to be an attitude amongst unbelievers that the scriptures, and particularly the gospel accounts and epistles were written by superstitious men who simply maneuvered folks according to the irrationality they imagine was rampant at the time. 
Folks like Paul just came up with stuff cause people were gullible and easily manipulated.

Funny, but you don't find Paul saying that at all.
Paul is very aware of the foolishness of the gospel, yet makes no apologies for it because he sees the wisdom of God in it.
He understands the problems the "rational" mind of man has in dealing with the resurrection, and significantly, is not afraid to face this very hard objection. He doesn't shy away and sweep these things under the rug, he doesn't merely say...well the bible tells me so...he confronts the position..."if Christ be not raised from the dead"...head on.
Yeah, if Christ is not raised, we are fools beyond measure...yeah, if Christ be not raised, we make the God we claim to worship...out to be a liar. You don't find Paul glossing over objection to the "foolishness of the gospel" just so he can appear more reasonable to those who are impressed with such.
But he took his stand on the things his heart told him are true, the things he had even seen and heard, and which, as any disciple knows, often seem so far away, even remote and hazy when a time of severe testing is upon you. You hear that old voice that every man who walks the face of the earth has heard, and must if he is to wend his way through the forest of lies to the clearing where everything is plain and discernible  "hath God said?" "Did you really hear from God?" "was that really the Lord's hand back there...or did I just imagine it was...?"
That voice must be overcome, and will be overcome, by everyone who bears the Lord's name.
Look silly to many, if not most? Of course. Are we glad to be thought fools...no, not for its own sake...but when we see who first bore being thought so foolish....yet scorned the shame..."Look, he saved others yet he cannot even save himself" (he musta really gone too far this time) We cannot help but follow.
The foolishness of God is greater than man's wisdom, and once one has received this invitation to join God in a bit of foolishness for the sake of those who consider themselves so wise, have seen the envelope torn open, seen what's inside...and it is unmistakably addressed to you with all the love eternity contains for you...it's simply irresistible.
Believers are not masochists...we too can scorn the shame of being thought weak, feeble minded, grossly naive...but even that scorn makes way for the joy set before us as we bear together with our noble King being dragged outside the camp, being barred from the company of those the world calls reasonable and clever.
It's a totally unexplainable thing how bearing his reproach, seeking the lowest seat you discover is a glorious place of fellowship with the one person for whom your soul has always longed.
Men gather together and say...our promise of acceptance is according to your rejection of him...and yet you find their souls full of dust and their hearts full of burrs.
He, however, just by himself, never fails to satisfy. And when he alone is your satisfaction, he allows you to see all the many others in him with whom you are eternally knit, and who can never be torn from each other.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 4, 2009)

Amen. Now lets eat our suppers, in joy, live our day as it were the last and tomorrow our first.  Charle Dicken's character Ebeniser Screwge though the world foolish until he spent 3 days in a fish.


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## dawgforlife (Dec 4, 2009)

its all just a money making scheme, IMO


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## Ronnie T (Dec 4, 2009)

dawgforlife said:


> its all just a money making scheme, IMO



Money huh?

Do a history search of the apostles of Jesus in the 1st century.  You'll learn how rich they made themselves over this scheme of theirs.

Then send me a PM and I'll tell you how much I get paid by a church.

Except for maybe a handful, money goes ways down near the bottom of the list.


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## earl (Dec 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Money huh?
> 
> Do a history search of the apostles of Jesus in the 1st century.  You'll learn how rich they made themselves over this scheme of theirs.
> 
> ...





How do you feel about getting paid a percentage of what the church takes in ? I understand that a prominent church here in Woodstock does just that.


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## The Original Rooster (Dec 4, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Money huh?
> 
> Do a history search of the apostles of Jesus in the 1st century.  You'll learn how rich they made themselves over this scheme of theirs.
> 
> ...



Ronnie, 
Do you mean to say that helicopter in your avatar is not your personal helicopter? Darn, I was hoping for a ride some day.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 5, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Do a history search of the apostles of Jesus in the 1st century.  You'll learn how rich they made themselves over this scheme of theirs.




Yes, their devotion to the gospel earned them martyrdom, not money.


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