# What is morality?



## Hoyt Mathews (Mar 7, 2011)

I have often wondered what morality is and who is responsible for seeing to it being carried out.


Personally, I think it is all a scam. It is, ultimately, one human telling another human what they ought to do. I do not believe there are transcendent values or that human life is any more valuable than a blade of grass. Obviously, I have values such as marriage, fatherhood, outdoors, etc...but I know I make them up to please me and to give my life some sort of artificial meaning until my death. 

Many people create their own values as well. I do not consider mine sacred or above that of anyone elses values.
I am just being honest in admitting that they are arbitrary and subjective.

Any thoughts?


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## ambush80 (Mar 7, 2011)

Hoyt Mathews said:


> I have often wondered what morality is and who is responsible for seeing to it being carried out.
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it is all a scam. It is, ultimately, one human telling another human what they ought to do. I do not believe there are transcendent values or that human life is any more valuable than a blade of grass. Obviously, I have values such as marriage, fatherhood, outdoors, etc...but I know I make them up to please me and to give my life some sort of artificial meaning until my death.
> ...



There are certain impulses related to your survival instinct (in terms of the survival of your species) that shape your morality but most of it is a construct.


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## gtparts (Mar 7, 2011)

Hoyt Mathews said:


> I have often wondered what morality is and who is responsible for seeing to it being carried out.
> 
> 
> Personally, I think it is all a scam. It is, ultimately, one human telling another human what they ought to do. I do not believe there are transcendent values or that human life is any more valuable than a blade of grass. Obviously, I have values such as marriage, fatherhood, outdoors, etc...but I know I make them up to please me and to give my life some sort of artificial meaning until my death.
> ...



That is certainly one way of looking at it. Many try to live their lives by applying situational ethics.... doing what seems right for them "in the moment". If one finds some things consistently unpleasant, one usually labels them as "bad" or "evil". If pleasant, then usually " good" and, of course there are rather neutral experiences, which most often go unlabeled.

Others see the wonders of the organized world and the "rules" that bring order to so much of what is the reality in which we live. They see the occasional and constant exceptions to the order and consider, "Is order the natural state or is disorder the natural state? Does the fact that things shift from order to disorder, fall apart, rust, rot, break down give indication of order being the original state of all existence? Do we ever see where order arises from disorder, without some outside force manipulating or imposing conditions? If not, what is that force? How does that force achieve the end result, order out of disorder? Would it not have to be intelligent to do so?

Ultimately, it all comes down to what you believe you know, what you suspect, what you are willing to ask and pursue, and who you will trust. 

If you just settle for what you think you know and what feels right to you at the time, you will never reach, never grasp the potential that is within you. 

I want to know the truth and I want to know what is right, that I may speak the truth and live rightly. Just existing and then ceasing to exist, without knowing, just isn't very satisfying to me. I believe that what appears to me to be my personal existence is important, that I have a purpose, that my life, how I live it has meaning and purpose.

I have found this and far more in Jesus Christ. Not only does life make sense, but I am loved by my creator. God has made it clear to me that He has made the same available to everyone He has not created for a different purpose. Most have been created to experience a life quite a bit better than they are experiencing. I have every reason to believe you are one who isn't living as "well" as God intends. 

I pray your journey (and whether you like it or not, you are on one) brings you to the only place that satisfies.

God's grace and peace to you.


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## 11P&YBOWHUNTER (Mar 7, 2011)

morality is different in each and every person.  As a whole, there is probably what a common person would consider morals, but it is not blanketed.  


Perfect example or differing morality would be if a hot, drunk, southern belle staggered up to me in a bar and said she thought i was a find and wanted me to take her home...i would personally try to find who she came to the bar with and tell them they need to take her home while many other folks would fall off their bar stool and break their ankle trying to get out the door with her...

Morality is like underwear, its not always the same for everyone.


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## ambush80 (Mar 7, 2011)

gtparts said:


> That is certainly one way of looking at it. Many try to live their lives by applying situational ethics.... doing what seems right for them "in the moment". If one finds some things consistently unpleasant, one usually labels them as "bad" or "evil". If pleasant, then usually " good" and, of course there are rather neutral experiences, which most often go unlabeled.
> 
> Others see the wonders of the organized world and the "rules" that bring order to so much of what is the reality in which we live. They see the occasional and constant exceptions to the order and consider, "Is order the natural state or is disorder the natural state? Does the fact that things shift from order to disorder, fall apart, rust, rot, break down give indication of order being the original state of all existence? Do we ever see where order arises from disorder, without some outside force manipulating or imposing conditions? If not, what is that force? How does that force achieve the end result, order out of disorder? Would it not have to be intelligent to do so?
> 
> ...



I had a revelation today as I got out of bed and felt the aches and pains that come with aging. 

I thought "Wouldn't it be great if there was a place with no hunger or suffering? No aches and pains and getting older."  I then realized that I had just wasted  2 minutes of my life dreaming of a place where "troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops" instead of enjoying the glorious day.  That is the stuff of fantasy and should be enjoyed as such.

I don't know what kind of suffering anybody else has been through or what kind of desires and appetites they might have that guilt them to the point that they feel they need divine intervention to get control of them, but I do know that longing for and anticipating Heaven detracts from the sublime if not occasionally painful experience of living.


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## gtparts (Mar 7, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> .....but I do know that longing for and anticipating Heaven detracts from the sublime if not occasionally painful experience of living.



 Detracts?   How so? 

I have found, at least for myself and many others, that longing for and anticipating heaven actually enhances the very character of my life. I face the journey and all it has to offer, sublime to painful, with great joy, confidence, and wonder, while also contemplating the destination. There is a special peace found in knowing that all has been settled, in the present, regardless of circumstances, and in eternity.


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## JFS (Mar 7, 2011)

No doubt it's easier to create a fantasy world in you head than deal with reality.  

If you were happily married but your friend knew your wife was shagging half the neighborhood, would you want him to tell you and cause you pain or let you live in blissful ignorance?   In other words, would you want to know the truth even if it was less enjoyable than your current beliefs?


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## ambush80 (Mar 7, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Detracts?   How so?
> 
> I have found, at least for myself and many others, that longing for and anticipating heaven actually enhances the very character of my life. I face the journey and all it has to offer, sublime to painful, with great joy, confidence, and wonder, while also contemplating the destination. There is a special peace found in knowing that all has been settled, in the present, regardless of circumstances, and in eternity.



You've eliminated so many other possibilities for your life by adopting a "ready guide".   Furthermore, when faced with hardship, your mental condition causes you to say "If it be your will, take this cup from me." instead doing something about it yourself.  Your belief also puts you in a position to consider yourself "blessed" in comparison to someone less fortunate.  Are they cursed?



JFS said:


> No doubt it's easier to create a fantasy world in you head than deal with reality.
> 
> If you were happily married but your friend knew your wife was shagging half the neighborhood, would you want him to tell you and cause you pain or let you live in blissful ignorance?   In other words, would you want to know the truth even if it was less enjoyable than your current beliefs?



I know people who are ill equipped to deal with the reality of a huge, random and uncaring world.  They would never make sense of it on their own.  It's good for them and society that they have a guidebook to follow.  The only thing that bothers me is that they are allowed to vote.


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## pnome (Mar 7, 2011)

Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 7, 2011)

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/morality-definition/

Top notch read.


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## ted_BSR (Mar 7, 2011)

pnome said:


> Moral behavior is survival behavior above the individual level.



That was a good thread pnome.


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## vowell462 (Mar 7, 2011)

11P&YBOWHUNTER said:


> morality is different in each and every person.  As a whole, there is probably what a common person would consider morals, but it is not blanketed.
> 
> 
> Perfect example or differing morality would be if a hot, drunk, southern belle staggered up to me in a bar and said she thought i was a find and wanted me to take her home...i would personally try to find who she came to the bar with and tell them they need to take her home while many other folks would fall off their bar stool and break their ankle trying to get out the door with her...
> ...



Noted. Because my morals would not have been the same. Begs the old phrase " your a better man than me"!


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## gtparts (Mar 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> You've eliminated so many other possibilities for your life by adopting a "ready guide".   Furthermore, when faced with hardship, your mental condition causes you to say "If it be your will, take this cup from me." instead doing something about it yourself.  Your belief also puts you in a position to consider yourself "blessed" in comparison to someone less fortunate.  Are they cursed?



Isn't that what everyone does, eliminate possibilities by making choices? We choose this course, not that one.... like a road trip to St. Louis. 

I fail to see that I am prohibited from taking specific action against hardship. Though there is some overriding sense of God being in control, to ultimately bring all things into conformity to His will, it's apparent to me that the "free will thing" allows a certain variability to the route we take. Every perfect choice, every acceptable choice, and every unacceptable choice a Christian makes, takes them in a different direction without necessarily altering the final destination.

Are you suggesting that the disparity between having and not having is something other than random? I don't think so. There are reasons for the disparity. It surely isn't random. You can offer up many reasons or circumstances that favor one individual over another. If such favor or "blessing" is by the hand of God, no one has a right to laud it over another. It is by His grace that we are who we are and have what we have.
Typically, this is where thoughts run to how hard we have studied and applied ourselves, worked hard, long hours, saved, invested, and reinvested. Feel that swelling of pride? Yet, we know that intelligence, education, and industry sometimes go unrewarded, while some sluggard on welfare hits the lottery.
Why does it happen this way??? I'll tell you. The model is broken. Sin entered the world early on and the result is that we live imperfect lives in an imperfect world. Fairness pretty much was tossed out the window. Equality.... gone! All that was created in balance, ain't balanced any more!  
Cursed? We are all under a curse of our own choosing, unless and until we accept the fact that Jesus willing paid the price for our redemption. Most folk's problem in this regard is that they don't believe they need redeeming, they've done nothing wrong. I suppose if there were no God, they'd be correct. That is why it is so important to them to build some kind of case against the existence of God. No God, no sin, no need for redemption.




ambush80 said:


> I know people who are ill equipped to deal with the reality of a huge, random and uncaring world.  They would never make sense of it on their own.  It's good for them and society that they have a guidebook to follow.  The only thing that bothers me is that they are allowed to vote.



I agree. Those that rely on a book eventually get around to interpreting the book in a way that serves their own agenda. If needed, they'll rewrite it. Thankfully, my position rests in the relationship that I have with the Living Lord, the One who gave us the Living Word. 

Just curious, but why should one who relies on a guidebook be undesirable as a registered voter as opposed to someone that "thinks for himself"? Does thinking for oneself make one any better at casting a ballot, particularly if that vote is contrary to your way of thinking? In other words, does it matter what process is used to arrive at a voting decision that you would consider favorable? For that matter, does it  matter what process is used to arrive at a voting decision that you would consider unfavorable?

Logically, it is only significant whether they have the same position as you hold, not how they came to that decision.


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## ambush80 (Mar 8, 2011)

gtparts said:


> Isn't that what everyone does, eliminate possibilities by making choices? We choose this course, not that one.... like a road trip to St. Louis.
> 
> I fail to see that I am prohibited from taking specific action against hardship. Though there is some overriding sense of God being in control, to ultimately bring all things into conformity to His will, it's apparent to me that the "free will thing" allows a certain variability to the route we take. Every perfect choice, every acceptable choice, and every unacceptable choice a Christian makes, takes them in a different direction without necessarily altering the final destination.
> 
> ...



I take more comfort and the World makes more sense to me taking the position that things are working as they should.  I dealt with the notion of being born a sinner.  It was a bad way to be. 



gtparts said:


> Just curious, but why should one who relies on a guidebook be undesirable as a registered voter as opposed to someone that "thinks for himself"? Does thinking for oneself make one any better at casting a ballot, particularly if that vote is contrary to your way of thinking? In other words, does it matter what process is used to arrive at a voting decision that you would consider favorable? For that matter, does it  matter what process is used to arrive at a voting decision that you would consider unfavorable?
> 
> Logically, it is only significant whether they have the same position as you hold, not how they came to that decision.



Do you think that some people voted for Obama simply because they shared (partially) his race?  Do you think that some people did the exact opposite?  That's why it matters to me how people arrive at their decisions.


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## gtparts (Mar 8, 2011)

ambush80 said:


> I take more comfort and the World makes more sense to me taking the position that things are working as they should.  I dealt with the notion of being born a sinner.  It was a bad way to be.
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think that some people voted for Obama simply because they shared (partially) his race?  Do you think that some people did the exact opposite?  That's why it matters to me how people arrive at their decisions.



Point is, there is nothing you can do about the motivation for a ballot that has already been cast. If the method for arriving at that decision is just "eenie-meenie-miennie-moe" or the result of some rigorous research and rational contemplation, a nay vote is still nay, a yea is a yea. 

Since it is brought up so often, let's drag that corpse of a horse out one last time (we can only hope).

Sales of beverage alcohol on Sunday.

When it comes to a vote and the lady that lives three doors down the block votes "NO", does it really matter whether she is doing it for some religious "reason" or because her 11 year old son was killed by a drunk driver early Sunday evening two years ago? Do you really need to know the reason? Is knowing the reason somehow going to alter her vote?

All any of us has a right to know is that the vote was legally cast.

Likewise, it may be that you cast a "Yea" because seven Sundays in a row you have consumed more libation than you anticipated and started the second half of the Falcon with an empty cooler. So be it. It is no body's business why you voted in the affirmative. 

As for dealing with the notion of being born a sinner, it is a bad way to be. I agree. But, don't be surprised if you have to deal with it one last time.

Do you really believe that (this world) things are working as they should? Then there is no need for Obama's change or a referendum on Sunday liquor sales, or any other legislative additions or changes. Everything is as it should be.  That's an interesting and disturbing position to take. But, hey, each to their own.


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