# Cain's descendants



## Randy (Feb 21, 2012)

Is the black race Cain's descendants?


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2012)

Randy said:


> Is the black race Cain's descendants?



No...at least I don't think you can get their Biblically.

But...Mormons hold to that...based on the book of Mormon and the curse on Cain in Genesis.


Think about it this way Randy....how many survived the flood?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Think about it this way Randy....how many survived the flood?



.....kind-of limits the possibilities, doesn't it.


----------



## Randy (Feb 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> No...at least I don't think you can get their Biblically.
> 
> But...Mormons hold to that...based on the book of Mormon and the curse on Cain in Genesis.
> 
> ...



Well I don't know who Egytha was but according to the Mormons Egypta was Ham's (son of Noah) wife and she was black.  I don't think Biblically there is any way to know the colors of the people on the ark but there certainly could have been a black race among them.


----------



## Randy (Feb 21, 2012)

And if none of the black race survived the flood then why are there still people of the black race.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

Randy said:


> And if none of the black race survived the flood then why are there still people of the black race.



Evolution.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

Randy said:


> And if none of the black race survived the flood then why are there still people of the black race.[/QUOTE
> 
> 
> 3 main races Shem(Mid East)Japheth(Europe)Ham(Africa)
> ...


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2012)

Randy said:


> Well I don't know who Egytha was but according to the Mormons Egypta was Ham's (son of Noah) wife and she was black.  I don't think Biblically there is any way to know the colors of the people on the ark but there certainly could have been a black race among them.



Sure thing.  But they would've been mixed right?  Would've also been the descendants of Adam/Seth/other children we don't know about. 



Randy said:


> And if none of the black race survived the flood then why are there still people of the black race.



Same reason asians have narrower eyes than Caucasions.  Same reason caucasions have fair skin compared to Jews.



BrowningFan said:


> 3 main races Shem(Mid East)Japheth(Europe)Ham(Africa)
> 
> Gen 9:18-27 (KJV)Noah builds a vineyard gets drunk and Ham rapes him , God can't curse Ham because he has already blessed him so he cursed his son Canaan and made him a servant to Shem and Japheth ...... you can follow these 3 races through the Bible and figure it out for yourself. I don't like discussing this but it's right there in your Bible not my words Gods.



Wow.  How you get rape from this.

 22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

Just beyond me.

And what don't you like discussing?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Sure thing.  But they would've been mixed right?  Would've also been the descendants of Adam/Seth/other children we don't know about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So God would curse someone for seeing their father naked? Just beyond me. So why did God curse him?

Webster's 1828 definition (Webster used the bible to write definitions)" To uncover nakedness, in Scripture, is to have incestuous or unlawful commerce with a female". Also you can run a cross reference in Strong's Concordance comparing scripture with scripture as God instructs use to do.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> So God would curse someone for seeing their father naked?



I think it was Noah who proclaimed the curse, and apparently they took their nudity seriously.  If you believe ham raped him, then why would he go and tell his brothers about it....beyond me


----------



## stringmusic (Feb 21, 2012)

This is all beyond me

I'm sorry, I didn't have much to add to this conversation.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think it was Noah who proclaimed the curse, and apparently they took their nudity seriously.  If you believe ham raped him, then why would he go and tell his brothers about it....beyond me



Guess you figured it out better than Webster.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Guess you figured it out better than Webster.



Not sure I follow.  Here is the scripture you reference (NIV):



> 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness. 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said, "Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers."



When I read that (minus commentary), it appears to me that being seen naked was some kind of cultural taboo.  I was not aware of implied rape.  What is the reasoning for coming to that conclusion?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I think it was Noah who proclaimed the curse, and apparently they took their nudity seriously.  If you believe ham raped him, then why would he go and tell his brothers about it....beyond me



Have you taken the time to look up every time the word "nakedness" is used in the Bible and get the definition? Because your response time was pretty quick.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Not sure I follow.  Here is the scripture you reference (NIV):
> 
> 
> 
> When I read that (minus commentary), it appears to me that being seen naked was some kind of cultural taboo.  I was not aware of implied rape.  What is the reasoning for coming to that conclusion?



Can't use two different Bibles to debate.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Can't use two different Bibles to debate.



Pick one and I will go with it.....


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Have you taken the time to look up every time the word "nakedness" is used in the Bible and get the definition?



I am actually afraid to type that into any search engine from my computer at work.....all sorts of nonsense might pop up.

Do you have links?  I will investigate so I can follow what you are getting at.......


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Can't use two different Bibles to debate.





Really?  I mean really? KJV or NIV, they both say pretty much the same thing.

Here's the KJV.

20And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: 

 21And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent. 

 22And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without. 

 23And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness. 

 24And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him. 

 25And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. 

 26And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 

 27God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. 

 28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years. 

 29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died


Here's the NIV.

 20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father naked and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father’s naked body. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father naked. 

 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said, 

   “Cursed be Canaan! 
   The lowest of slaves 
   will he be to his brothers.” 

 26 He also said, 

   “Praise be to the LORD, the God of Shem! 
   May Canaan be the slave of Shem. 
27 May God extend Japheth’s* territory; 
   may Japheth live in the tents of Shem, 
   and may Canaan be the slave of Japheth.” 

 28 After the flood Noah lived 350 years. 29 Noah lived a total of 950 years, and then he died.





Why read into more than what scripture says?  Anything more than nakedness is pure speculation.*


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I am actually afraid to type that into any search engine from my computer at work.....all sorts of nonsense might pop up.
> 
> Do you have links?  I will investigate so I can follow what you are getting at.......



JB..here's a sermon you can read/listen to on the subject.  Also, his next one covers it a little bit as well.

http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/90-264/the-sin-of-noah


All in all, it just isn't an accurate statement.  Pointing to Leviticus is different language and different usage.  Translates as Nakedness...but as MacArthur points out, it is speculation at best.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> JB..here's a sermon you can read/listen to on the subject.  Also, his next one covers it a little bit as well.
> 
> http://www.gty.org/resources/sermons/90-264/the-sin-of-noah
> 
> ...



Thanks, I will check it out......I had never heard this rape theory before....not even in Dr. Towns' OT survey course at Liberty (and I did tend to keep up with the "odd stuff" I came across).


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Can't use two different Bibles to debate.



????????  

Shouldn't use a Webster dictionary either.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2012)

This goes to a much larger subject......... Nationalities.

Why are we different?
Some nationalities have the beautiful eyes of an oriental.
Some have round.
Several nationalities have black hair only.
Some have a darker complexion.
Some nationalities have a much lighter skin tone.
And the noses; and the lips; and the height; and on and on.

If you have it figured out, your wrong.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I am actually afraid to type that into any search engine from my computer at work.....all sorts of nonsense might pop up.
> 
> Do you have links?  I will investigate so I can follow what you are getting at.......



Strong's Concordance but mine is a book.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Thanks, I will check it out......I had never heard this rape theory before....not even in Dr. Towns' OT survey course at Liberty (and I did tend to keep up with the "odd stuff" I came across).



It's the only way I have ever heard it explained. I'm a baptist so that may explain it. Hahahaha


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> It's the only way I have ever heard it explained. I'm a baptist so that may explain it. Hahahaha



I grew up independant Baptist, then attended Southern Baptist Churches a bit as an adult.  The preachers there might have been too embarassed to discuss it in this way.  I do remember hearing sermons on this scripture, but, if I recall, they were relevant to blessings for doing the right thing.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> I grew up independant Baptist, then attended Southern Baptist Churches a bit as an adult.  The preachers there might have been too embarassed to discuss it in this way.  I do remember hearing sermons on this scripture, but, if I recall, they were relevant to blessings for doing the right thing.



Not many would start a sermon on it. Hahaha


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Strong's Concordance but mine is a book.



Can you give us the verses/other scripture passages it points to?



BrowningFan said:


> It's the only way I have ever heard it explained. I'm a baptist so that may explain it. Hahahaha



  Although, it does explain the KJV only comment.



BrowningFan said:


> Not many would start a sermon on it. Hahaha



Did you look at the two sermons I referenced above?

I guess when you preach expositionally, you don't have a choice about skipping the passage.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

Leviticus 20:11, I found a source that says "A man who lays with his fathers wife has uncovered his father's nakedness". This is not what my NIV says. This computer I'm on, does not allow my bookmarks from where I used to compare translations. Does anybody's bible say this? Factor in 1Cor 5:1, "A man has his Father's wife" ?????? Done some checking, My NIV missed the significance of this. This opens up a completely different theory.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

Why do you suppose that God cursed Ham's son and not Ham himself? What about Ham's other son's?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

Check out Lev 18:8, Deut 27:20, Eze 39:7, Lev 20:11. It is clear, Ham had sex with his fathers wife while he and his wife were passed out. Was it his mother? or another wife of Noah?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Check out Lev 18:8, Deut 27:20, Eze 39:7, Lev 20:11. It is clear, Ham had sex with his fathers wife while he and his wife were passed out. Was it his mother? or another wife of Noah


 Deut 27:20 "Cursed is he who lies with his father's wife for he has uncovered his father's nakedness"


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> Can you give us the verses/other scripture passages it points to?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry for they delay I was out playing golf with my daughter. 

As far as the Bible debate. Here is a quiz. I will let you answer the quiz with your NIV and explain to me if there is a difference. 

1.Fill in the missing words in Matthew 5:44. "Love your enemies,__________ them that curse you, ______________ to them that hate you, and pray for them that __________ and persecute you."

2.According to Matthew 17:21, what two things are required to cast out this type of demon? a. ______ b. _______

3.According to Matthew 18:11, why did Jesus come to earth? _______________

4.According to Matthew 27:2, what was Pilate's first name? ________

5.In Matthew 27:35, when the wicked soldiers parted His garments, they were fulfilling the words of the prophet. Copy what the prophet said in Matthew 27:35 from the NIV. ________________

6.In Mark 3:15, Jesus gave the apostles power to cast out demons and to: ____________

7.According to Mark 7:16, what does a man need to be able to hear? ____________

8.According to Luke 7:28, what was John? (teacher, prophet, carpenter, etc.). What is his title or last name? _____________

9.In Luke 9:55, what did the disciples not know? _______________

10.In Luke 9:56, what did the Son of man not come to do? According to this verse, what did He come to do? a. _______ b. ________

11.In Luke 22:14, how many apostles were with Jesus? ___

12.According to Luke 23:38, in what three languages was the superscription written? a. _______ b. _______ c. ________

13.In Luke 24:42, what did they give Jesus to eat with His fish? ______________

14.John 3:13 is a very important verse, proving the deity of Christ. According to this verse (as Jesus spoke), where is the Son of man? __________

15.What happened each year as told in John 5:4? ____________

16.In John 7:50, what time of day did Nicodemus come to Jesus? _______

17.In Acts 8:37, what is the one requirement for baptism? _______

18.What did Saul ask Jesus in Acts 9:6? _______

19.Write the name of the man mentioned in Acts 15:34. _______

20.Study Acts 24:6-8. What would the Jew have done with Paul? What was the chief captain's name? What did the chief captain command? a. _______ b._______ c. _______

21.Copy Romans 16:24 word for word from the NIV. _____________

22.First Timothy 3:16 is perhaps the greatest verse in the New Testament concerning the deity of Christ. In this verse, who was manifested in the flesh? _______

23.In the second part of First Peter 4:14, how do [they] speak of Christ? And, what do we Christians do? a. _______ b. _______

24.Who are the three Persons of the Trinity in First John 5:7? a. ___ b.___ c. ___
25.Revelation 1:11 is another very important verse that proves the deity of Christ. In the first part of this verse Jesus said, "I am the A______________ and O___________, the _________ and the _______:"


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Sorry for they delay I was out playing golf with my daughter.
> 
> As far as the Bible debate. Here is a quiz. I will let you answer the quiz with your NIV and explain to me if there is a difference.
> 
> ...


This is a KJ only test? correct. This is a banned subject. You might consider deleting it.  It is a Tsunami of ignorance


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> This is a KJ only test? correct. This is a banned subject. You might consider deleting it.  It is a Tsunami of ignorance



Didn't know it's banned , I'm new. jbcruiser ask why we can't debate with 2 different Bibles and I'm try to show him why , because they are different. Not a big deal.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 21, 2012)

jrcruiser ..... sorry I didn't know that saying Bible's are different is a banned subject, I'm new here. Looks like you've been a member since 2008 so maybe you didn't know either. To answer your question  all Bible's are not the same two different Greek text one is Syrian and one is Egyptian. They are similar but not they same I just like Syrian. Sorry again no big deal.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Didn't know it's banned , I'm new. jbcruiser ask why we can't debate with 2 different Bibles and I'm try to show him why , because they are different. Not a big deal.


I myself did not know until recently


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Leviticus 20:11, I found a source that says "A man who lays with his fathers wife has uncovered his father's nakedness". This is not what my NIV says. This computer I'm on, does not allow my bookmarks from where I used to compare translations. Does anybody's bible say this? Factor in 1Cor 5:1, "A man has his Father's wife" ?????? Done some checking, My NIV missed the significance of this. This opens up a completely different theory.





1gr8bldr said:


> Check out Lev 18:8, Deut 27:20, Eze 39:7, Lev 20:11. It is clear, Ham had sex with his fathers wife while he and his wife were passed out. Was it his mother? or another wife of Noah?





1gr8bldr said:


> Deut 27:20 "Cursed is he who lies with his father's wife for he has uncovered his father's nakedness"


I wonder what all else we miss due to translations becoming a paraphrase???


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 21, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> It's the only way I have ever heard it explained. I'm a baptist so that may explain it. Hahahaha


I was raised a Baptist and the rape interpretation is the only one i've ever heard. I really don't have an opinion only to say I like discussing the minor historical parts of the Bible that don't have anything to do with salvation at times.  
BrowningFan, the thing I gather on the various Bible translations is that since the Bible is the inspired word of God, the interpretations are more of a man/flesh thing than using the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible. I know I didn't explain that very well.  It's one of the things that causes division on the forum and is frowned upon. I don't know if it is a banned topic

OH, and welcome to the forum1


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 21, 2012)

Artfuldodger said:


> I was raised a Baptist and the rape interpretation is the only one i've ever heard. I really don't have an opinion only to say I like discussing the minor historical parts of the Bible that don't have anything to do with salvation at times.
> BrowningFan, the thing I gather on the various Bible translations is that since the Bible is the inspired word of God, the interpretations are more of a man/flesh thing than using the Holy Spirit to interpret the Bible. I know I didn't explain that very well.  It's one of the things that causes division on the forum and is frowned upon. *I don't know if it is a banned topic.*


*
*
Yea, it's in the sticky above or else I would have addressed it


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 21, 2012)

Oh, and make sure you read all the stickies, I must say I never read that one, that would have explained a lot and my saved embarrassment.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> [/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]
> Yea, it's in the sticky above or else I would have addressed it



Yep, the discussion got heated fast.   And really, it was a circular firing squad, made us all look bad.

But, growing up Baptist, I have heard every argument there is in support of "the one true translation."  But somehow never heard that Ham raped Noah......don't believe I'd told that to my brothers.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 21, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Check out Lev 18:8, Deut 27:20, Eze 39:7, Lev 20:11. It is clear, Ham had sex with his fathers wife while he and his wife were passed out. Was it his mother? or another wife of Noah?



Ok, so is your opinion that he raped his mother or step-mother, not Noah?


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 21, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> This opens up a completely different theory.



And that is all it is.  Theory.  

Why do you have to try and read into more than what is there?  It says in all translations...he looked upon his nakedness.  Nothing less...nothing more.

Funny thing is...who sinned in the passage?  Noah did.  He got drunk.  And yet, he did the cursing.




BrowningFan said:


> Sorry for they delay I was out playing golf with my daughter.



Good for you!  Don't worry, we won't crucify you for having a life outside the Woody's SD&S forum



BrowningFan said:


> why we can't debate with 2 different Bibles and I'm try to show him why , because they are different.



Not in this passage.  I put both of them side by side above...and they both read the same.  But it has recently become a banned topic, so we'll drop it.

Btw....welcome to the forum....or are you a recycled banded member?  j/k


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Ok, so is your opinion that he raped his mother or step-mother, not Noah?


I would say that is much more likely based on what hints we have in scripture. I do however reject the notion that Noah got raped. Nothing anywhere to get that idea. Have you give any thought to the possible connection of 1 Cor 5:1?


----------



## WELLS8230 (Feb 22, 2012)

Who cares?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> I would say that is much more likely based on what hints we have in scripture. I do however reject the notion that Noah got raped. Nothing anywhere to get that idea. Have you give any thought to the possible connection of 1 Cor 5:1?



But v.23 says Shem and Japheth covered their fathers nakedness and not his wife's , so something happened to Noah.


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 22, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> But v.23 says Shem and Japheth covered their fathers nakedness and not his wife's , so something happened to Noah.


Did you read the verses I posted?


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Have you give any thought to the possible connection of 1 Cor 5:1?



I went and read that chapter, and it seems as if that form of incest is particularly repulsive to Paul.  Not sure if there is a connection to the Genesis story outside of Paul using that as a basis for his judgment (which he had already passed).


----------



## NCHillbilly (Feb 22, 2012)

I was raised Baptist, with my dad being a Baptist preacher, and I have never heard the rape/incest theory either. Nobody has addressed the following verses about the brothers entering the tent backwards with a garment and covering up Noah with their eyes averted. This sounds like a covering of literal nakedness, not a figurative or allegorical one such as the Leviticus verse points to. Explain to me how the brothers literally covered up a rape/incest in progress with a garment if that's what was taking place?


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 22, 2012)

> Have you taken the time to look up every time the word "nakedness" is used in the Bible and get the definition?



_	And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
(Genesis 2:25 ESV)_


I had no IDEA that Adam and Eve had just been raped.  That changes my entire understanding of Genesis!  It's brilliant!


and just in case we need the KJV for it "And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed."


...and while we're at it, how do we read this in the VERY NEXT VERSE?



> Then Shem and Japheth took a garment, laid it on both their shoulders, and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father. Their faces were turned backward, and they did not see their father's nakedness.



Did they UN-rape him at this point so that they would not see him being raped?  Now I'm really confused.  Could someone call Webster for me? (not the midget kid...the dictionary guy)

Oh man, this is classic.  Can we sticky this thread?


----------



## 1gr8bldr (Feb 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> Check out Lev 18:8, Deut 27:20, Eze 39:7, Lev 20:11. It is clear, Ham had sex with his fathers wife while he and his wife were passed out. Was it his mother? or another wife of Noah?





1gr8bldr said:


> Deut 27:20 "Cursed is he who lies with his father's wife for he has uncovered his father's nakedness"


What is evident is that the later writers were aware of the truth of something that we don't have recorded. This is evident in the way they worded this. You guys keep using the word "rape". We can't assume that it was not mutual agreement with the wife of Noah which we can't assume was Ham's mother. We know that something major happened because Canana's curse is major to the OT. The promised land that was promised to be taken from and then given to God's chosen, that was Canaan's, the land of Canaan, the Canaanites. I'm wondering if Canaan, since he was cursed, and although it reads as if he were cursed then, we have to realize that this was not written like a journal but many years later, I'm wondering if Noah's wife birthed Canaan. Sure, many assumptions here, but far more likely than Noah getting raped


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 22, 2012)

Webster said it man.  Don't argue with Webster....either of them.


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 22, 2012)

1gr8bldr said:


> What is evident is that the later writers were aware of the truth of something that we don't have recorded. This is evident in the way they worded this. You guys keep using the word "rape". We can't assume that it was not mutual agreement with the wife of Noah which we can't assume was Ham's mother. We know that something major happened because Canana's curse is major to the OT. The promised land that was promised to be taken from and then given to God's chosen, that was Canaan's, the land of Canaan, the Canaanites. I'm wondering if Canaan, since he was cursed, and although it reads as if he were cursed then, we have to realize that this was not written like a journal but many years later, I'm wondering if Noah's wife birthed Canaan. Sure, many assumptions here, but far more likely than Noah getting raped



An assumed event ... involving an assumed participant ... leading to assumed parentage ... hmm ... could lead to an assumed scripture.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 22, 2012)

This thread should've been a poll on what happened in Noah's tent.


----------



## formula1 (Feb 22, 2012)

*Re:*

This thread is a complete waste of bandwidth.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 22, 2012)

formula1 said:


> This thread is a complete waste of bandwidth.



That's the meanest thing I ever read you type.....


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 22, 2012)

It is pretty silly.  I kept seeing it at the top thinking "There is no WAY that thread went anywhere."  But I just kept not clicking.

Then I came in..."Oh, no WONDER it's still going!"

Good grief.


----------



## formula1 (Feb 22, 2012)

*Re:*



JB0704 said:


> That's the meanest thing I ever read you type.....



Yep...getting really mean in my old age.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 22, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> It is pretty silly.  I kept seeing it at the top thinking "There is no WAY that thread went anywhere."  But I just kept not clicking.
> 
> Then I came in..."Oh, no WONDER it's still going!"
> 
> Good grief.



I guess it goes to show how one can really get some strange beliefs by reading too much into the text.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 22, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> Evolution.



Oh my......we think scareily alike.


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 22, 2012)

stringmusic said:


> This is all beyond me
> 
> I'm sorry, I didn't have much to add to this conversation.



Wow...i'll stand behind you and watch.
Why on why didn't I just rest today, before my launch out into the deep....lol


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 22, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> It is pretty silly.  I kept seeing it at the top thinking "There is no WAY that thread went anywhere."  But I just kept not clicking.
> 
> Then I came in..."Oh, no WONDER it's still going!"
> 
> Good grief.



Really doesn't matter it's just 

Daniel Webster ( Webster Dictionary ) agrees with me 
Clarence Larkin
George Noble 
Robert Wilson 
James Orr
Alfred Rehwinkel
A.W. Pink
Samuel Gipp
David Otis Fuller
Bob Jones Sr.
John R Rice
J Frank Norris 

I could keep going  .... but the fact is just in this little bit I've named men that are all Born Again Bible Believers that hold to what I have posted and have written 100's of books including the dictionary .... I will stay with what they think ever what you think . Is that fair enough?


----------



## mtnwoman (Feb 22, 2012)

formula1 said:


> This thread is a complete waste of bandwidth.



Well I never heard of 'the' rape, and don't really get that out of the scripture....so I'm with you.

I knew there was something about Noah and his daughters, but never heard of this.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2012)

> I will stay with what they think ever what you think . Is that fair enough?



Sure it's fair!  You are entitled to wrongly believe whatever you want!

Funny thing is...from what I can tell, men you listed actually don't agree with your theory that Noah was raped by his own son. 

A few quotes:

A.W. Pink -
_"The very next thing we read is that "Noah began to be a husbandman, and he planted a vineyard: and he drank of the wine and was drunken, and he was uncovered within his tent"(Gen. 9:20, 21). Scholars tell us that the Hebrew word here for "uncovered" clearly indicates a deliberate act and not a mere unconscious effect of drunkenness."_

Noah was intentionally uncovered.  He didn't just fall naked because he was drunk.  But nowhere in there does he imply what you did.

Dr. Rice - 
_"Ham saw the nakedness of Noah in his tent and told his two brothers. Perhaps he joked about it…there is a lack of respect, a lack of godly fear which children should have for their fathers. So Noah pronounced a curse on Ham’s son because of his disrespect in this matter (John R. Rice, ibid., pp. 239-240)."_

Ham saw he was naked and was disrespectful in telling his brothers.  No rape here.

Dr. Charles Ryrie anybody? -
_"Ham is punished for his dishonor to his father by having a son who would bring dishonor to him. The curse is not on the Hamites, but on the Canaanites, the inhabitants of Palestine…The Canaanites long ago became extinct; the curse therefore cannot be applied to anyone today (Charles C. Ryrie, Ph.D., The Ryrie Study Bible, Moody Press, 1978, note on Genesis 9:25).

Ham’s sin was essentially that of dishonoring his father. Let all children remember that a curse comes when you dishonor and disobey your father, especially if he is a Christian. Depraved, unconverted men tend to dishonor their fathers, and this brings a curse today as it did then." _

Again....Ham dishonored his father.  No mention of incest, rape or anything of that nature.

I honestly don't know who some of those guys are.  But I trust that at least ONE of them actually does agree with you.  I've shown you here where two of them (and one other) absolutely do not...even though you say they do.

Could you show us the actual quotes where each of those gentlemen claim that Noah was raped by his son?  I'd really like to read them and research their validity.

I do see where the 1800's version of Webster defines nakedness the way you do...but, as you know, it specifically refers to a woman.  Wasn't Ham and man?  If you're going to insist on using that old version of the definition...don't you think you need to stick as rigidly to the actual wording as you do to everything else?



> I could keep going .... but the fact is just in this little bit I've named men that are all Born Again Bible Believers that hold to what I have posted and have written 100's of books including the dictionary



You're absolutely right...they did write a bunch of books.  Would you please show me where they said Ham raped Noah?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

Huntinfool .... I used Webster and said he agreed ( he was the one one I pointed out AGREED) as to the rest that was to the OP on the topic the Mark of Cain  and my comment not all  Bible's are the same. I'm sorry I didn't specify by each name what each contributed to the Topic. And I can not find the word RAPE in anyone's writings , I could have use sodomize but that has been removed from most new bibles using Westcott and Hort Greek Text. There are so many views from Ham was making fun of Noah to his brothers , Sex with his wife ,Ham raping or sodomizing Noah , or as you believe he simply saw him nude. In my eyes and many others more had to have happened than just seeing him nude. God letting Noah curse his grandson and his generations is pretty strong punishment for just seeing his father in the nude.


----------



## rjcruiser (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> God letting Noah curse his grandson and his generations is pretty strong punishment for just seeing his father in the nude.





So does that mean we need to read more into this text (and others) than what is there if it doesn't pass our own thoughts of what is fair judgement?


I wonder why Noah wasn't punished for getting drunk?  Afterall, none of this would've happened if he would've execised control.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2012)

> In my eyes and many others more had to have happened than just seeing him nude.



...and, quite literally, millions more believe that Ham saw his nudity and dishonored his father by not covering him up and then telling his brothers.

Dishonoring your father in those days was certainly enough to be cursed.  Honor was a HUGE deal.  For a son to mock his father would have been grounds for all manner of punishment.

You're entitled to believe what you do.  But it's certainly hugely the minority position.  You do acknowledge that, correct?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> ...and, quite literally, millions more believe that Ham saw his nudity and dishonored his father by not covering him up and then telling his brothers.
> 
> Dishonoring your father in those days was certainly enough to be cursed.  Honor was a HUGE deal.  For a son to mock his father would have been grounds for all manner of punishment.
> 
> You're entitled to believe what you do.  But it's certainly hugely the minority position.  You do acknowledge that, correct?



To be honest with 200 plus new bible versions and 100's of different religions I'm inclined to say it could be a minority view. 

But to most of the Independent Baptist I have discussed the issue with hold to Ham sodomizing Noah ..... But most of them are looked down upon because they believe their is  a perfect word of God from cover to cover with no errors in the English language also. (I just found out that's a banned topic)so I will leave that one alone.  But that's what would set most of them apart not the Ham and Noah topic just and interesting topic because the Bible is not 100% clear.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

rjcruiser said:


> So does that mean we need to read more into this text (and others) than what is there if it doesn't pass our own thoughts of what is fair judgement?
> 
> 
> I wonder why Noah wasn't punished for getting drunk?  Afterall, none of this would've happened if he would've execised control.



I don't know but some say it's because of Adam and Eve's sin both where naked and what ever happen with Eve Satin and forbidden fruit made them see being naked was wrong and it was God's way of reversing the naked thing ????? Good question  ... I like what you mentioned about Noah and that could have something to do with the fact he gets off the Ark built's a vineyard and gets drunk.  What is weird is it's the 1st time the word drunken was used in the bible. Some scholars say before the flood the atmosphere was different and that is why they could live 100's of years , so maybe they couldn't get drunk ? Clarence Larkin has the most profound book on the WHOLE bible I have ever read "Dispensational Truth" It nothing but raw meat. I couldn't put it down.


----------



## Huntinfool (Feb 23, 2012)

Did you ever address the use of "naked" and "nakedness" in the creation story?  How do you reconcile that with the interpretation that "nakedness" means sodomy in Noah?  It has to be interpreted the same way in each instance doesn't it?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

Huntinfool said:


> Did you ever address the use of "naked" and "nakedness" in the creation story?  How do you reconcile that with the interpretation that "nakedness" means sodomy in Noah?  It has to be interpreted the same way in each instance doesn't it?



Naked and Nakedness are not the same in all situations 

Again and I'm sorry about the Bible thing but I use an old AV 1611 Bible (which has no copyrights , it was printed in the basement of a Baptist Church and money send to missions oversees. I believe the AV 1611 is the only bible with no copyright )a Strong's Concordance and Webster's 1828 Dictionary I use a term called "comparing scripture with scripture" to get a Bible definition of the word.(which is hard hard to do using new bibles) so I would look up every time nakedness is used and read it in the context. Now is every time nakedness mentioned does it mean nude NO. But in some instances it means what Webster put, that because he used the AV 1611 to write definitions.(I didn't say all definitions) Now the reason I use Webster's 1828 is because words used to speak Elizabethan English are found in that edition. Plus I think it's cool Webster was a Christian and used the Bible to help write definitions.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> But to most of the Independent Baptist I have discussed the issue with hold to Ham sodomizing Noah .....



I must admit, I've never heard this interpretation.


----------



## allenww (Feb 23, 2012)

*Noah and Ham*

I am with Centerpin


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

Look at the context of nakedness in Leviticus Ch 18 .... In no way can the word just mean nude.


18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 
18:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, I am the LORD your God. 
18:3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances. 
18:4 Ye shall do my judgments, and keep mine ordinances, to walk therein: I [am] the LORD your God. 
18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I [am] the LORD. 
18:6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover [their] nakedness: I [am] the LORD. 
18:7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she [is] thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 
18:8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it [is] thy father's nakedness. 
18:9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, [whether she be] born at home, or born abroad, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover. 
18:10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, [even] their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs [is] thine own nakedness. 
18:11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she [is] thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 
18:12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she [is] thy father's near kinswoman. 
18:13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she [is] thy mother's near kinswoman. 
18:14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she [is] thine aunt. 
18:15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she [is] thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness. 
18:16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it [is] thy brother's nakedness. 
18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; [for] they [are] her near kinswomen: it [is] wickedness. 
18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time]. 
18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 
18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her. 
18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through [the fire] to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I [am] the LORD. 
18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it [is] abomination. 
18:23 Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it [is] confusion. 
18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you: 
18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. 
18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit [any] of these abominations; [neither] any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you: 
18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which [were] before you, and the land is defiled 
18:28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that [were] before you. 
18:29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit [them] shall be cut off from among their people. 
18:30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that [ye] commit not [any one] of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I [am] the LORD your God.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Look at the context of nakedness in Leviticus Ch 18 .... In no way can the word just mean nude.



Let's forget Leviticus for a second and go back to Genesis.  Just ten chapters after "drunk, naked Noah", we have the Sodom and Gomorrah story.  There is nothing ambiguous about that language:


_But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter: 

And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them._


If Genesis 9 was about Ham sodomizing Noah, why not use the same language as Genesis 19?


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

Now, back to Leviticus:



BrowningFan said:


> Look at the context of nakedness in Leviticus Ch 18 .... In no way can the word just mean nude.
> 
> 
> 18:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
> ...




Here, the author specifically differentiates between "nakedness" and "lie with".  If Ham "lay with" Noah, why not just say that?


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Now, back to Leviticus:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



18:17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; [for] they [are] her near kinswomen: it [is] wickedness.  

Why is this wicked ?



18:18 Neither shalt thou take a wife to her sister, to vex [her], to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life [time]. 

18:19 Also thou shalt not approach unto a woman to uncover her nakedness, as long as she is put apart for her uncleanness. 

Do you know what "uncleanness" for a women is in the OT and how can you uncover her nakedness if she already naked ? It means you can't have sex with women while she on her period. Because it was unclean. Leviticus 15:19



18:20 Moreover thou shalt not lie carnally with thy neighbour's wife, to defile thyself with her.


----------



## hummerpoo (Feb 23, 2012)

formula1 said:


> This thread is a complete waste of bandwidth.



And it still is!!!


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Do you know what "uncleanness" for a women is in the OT and how can you uncover her nakedness if she already naked ? It means you can't have sex with women while she on her period. Because it was unclean. Leviticus 15:19



Agreed, but ...



centerpin fan said:


> If Ham "lay with" Noah, why not just say that?



Moses had no problem using that terminoloy in Genesis 19 and Leviticus 18.  Why wouldn't he use it in Genesis 9?


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

hummerpoo said:


> And it still is!!!



Agreed, but this interpretation of Genesis 9 is so "out there", I thought I'd give it a shot.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> Agreed, but ...
> 
> 
> 
> Moses had no problem using that terminoloy in Genesis 19 and Leviticus 18.  Why wouldn't he use it in Genesis 9?



IDK but you agreed that in vs. 19 it implies sex ..... I Googled Lev 18 :1 thru 30 to see if I was the only person that had learned nakedness had to do with sex in some verses in the Bible .... I'm not the only one out there with that theory.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

Here's the passage in Genesis 9:


_Then Noah began farming and planted a vineyard. He drank of the wine and became drunk, and uncovered himself inside his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brothers outside. But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it upon both their shoulders and walked backward and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were turned away, so that they did not see their father’s nakedness._


You're saying that when Ham "saw the nakedness of his father", that means Ham raped him.  It doesn't make sense, though, that Shem and Japheth walked backwards and turned their faces away so that they would NOT rape him.  The context is clear that they just didn't want to see their father naked.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> IDK but you agreed that in vs. 19 it implies sex .....



It's absolutely sex!  But Genesis 9 isn't.  Nothing in the text or the context would suggest that it is.

In Genesis 9, it says that Noah uncovered himself and his son saw his nakedness.  In Leviticus, it says that you should not uncover the nakedness of another.

Completely different situation.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

We agree to disagree .... Follow Ole Ham's family down to Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 10:19 none of that stuff going down there huh? Look's like Ole Ham's folks had a little sex problem so maybe that's why Moses uses that meaning in both places. I'll stick with the way I learned it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

After spending two and a half years on this forum, I have learned that this:



BrowningFan said:


> the way I learned it.



... trumps everything.




BrowningFan said:


> Follow Ole Ham's family down to Sodom and Gomorrah Gen 10:19 none of that stuff going down there huh?



It's absolutely going on in S&G.  The passage is crystal clear.  It's absolutely not going on in Genesis 9.  Take anybody who has never read Genesis 9 and have them read it.  There's a 0% chance that they will interpret that passage to mean that Ham raped Noah.




BrowningFan said:


> ... maybe that's why Moses uses that meaning in both places.



He didn't.




BrowningFan said:


> We agree to disagree



Definitely.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

This train wreck of a thread needs a voice of sanity:


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

centerpin fan said:


> After spending two and a half years on this forum, I have learned that this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I hope you didn't come to Ga OD forum the last 2 1/2 years to learn a lot of Bible . Sound like your the Bible answer man.


Ham saw Noah's nakedness in chapter 9 .... I showed nakedness in the Bible can mean sex (and you agreed ). Ham's grandson and his generations where cursed to being a servant because he saw saw his Father nude ? Really?  ..... But no less than one chapter later in the Bible Ham's folk's end up in Sodom and Gomorrah. One chapter? And Ham's not a sodomite? You seem to think not because you "DEFINITELY" know what Moses was saying!


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> I hope you didn't come to Ga OD forum the last 2 1/2 years to learn a lot of Bible .



I did not.




BrowningFan said:


> Sound like your the Bible answer man.



Nope, that's Hank Hanegraaff.


----------



## BrowningFan (Feb 23, 2012)

I like Hank ...... Read some Clarence Larkin the most studied student of the Bible I have ever seen and no worldly influence in his studies he's been in glory for a while before TV. I have no idea Larkin's take on Noah and Ham. That would be a minor issue compared to what he has to offer. " Dispensational Truth" It's worth checking out light years ahead of anything I have ever read.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 23, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> Read some Clarence Larkin the most studied student of the Bible I have ever seen and no worldly influence in his studies he's been in glory for a while before TV. I have no idea Larkin's take on Noah and Ham. That would be a minor issue compared to what he has to offer. " Dispensational Truth" It's worth checking out light years ahead of anything I have ever read.



I have several books ahead of it on my "to read" list, but I'll check it out.


----------



## JB0704 (Feb 24, 2012)

To all the "waste of time," "trainwreck" comments:

What is this sub-forum for if not for what we are doing in this thread?  The fella has a theory, it's kind-of out there, and we determine whether it lines up with what we believe to be true.  We either learn "truth," or move on with reinforced faith in what we knew before.

Seriously, about halfway through this thing I wanted to take the other side just because of the comments being tossed that way.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 24, 2012)

My wife doesn't know why we would spend any time on this forum. She thinks we just like to argue, win arguments, and stir trouble. I've been accused of this myself. I'm trying to do better. I'm trying to not live up to my "Artful Dodger" handle. I did read that forums get more advertisements if the topics are controversial. There are some good articles on internet forum etiquette and about the different posters like trolls, sock puppets, etc. Two things I read that you are not to do is just respond "I agree" with no input. Another thing you are not suppose to do is try not to post on every thread if you don't really have any interest in it.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 24, 2012)

JB0704 said:


> What is this sub-forum for if not for what we are doing in this thread?



Hey, I gave it a shot.


----------



## Artfuldodger (Feb 24, 2012)

My wife says she has never known anyone that ask as many questions as my family. Once when buying a cell phone the associate asked me if I was an engineer. I said no, why. He said engineers ask a lot of questions. My wife has accused me of playing Devil's advocate too. Two more things I guess I need to work on.


----------



## bubbaofga (Mar 18, 2012)

Randy said:


> Is the black race Cain's descendants?




There is no such thing as "race". The reason why people look different is because of their geographic location. Race is a concept that man came up with to differentiate himself from others.


----------



## NE GA Pappy (Mar 31, 2012)

BrowningFan said:


> I hope you didn't come to Ga OD forum the last 2 1/2 years to learn a lot of Bible . Sound like your the Bible answer man.
> 
> 
> Ham saw Noah's nakedness in chapter 9 .... I showed nakedness in the Bible can mean sex (and you agreed ). Ham's grandson and his generations where cursed to being a servant because he saw saw his Father nude ? Really?  ..... But no less than one chapter later in the Bible Ham's folk's end up in Sodom and Gomorrah. One chapter? And Ham's not a sodomite? You seem to think not because you "DEFINITELY" know what Moses was saying!



That one chapter you are referring too encompasses quite a bit of time. We have Abraham born, married, and a clan of his own. He and Lot have a division because of the size of their herds and the requirements to water and graze them. Then all the Sodom and Gomorrah stuff. Quite a bit of time.

If we are taking votes, I say the curse is for dissing Noah to his brothers. Only logical interpretation of the scripture.

And to the OP, no, Cains curse was not being black. The different "races" did not appear until after the tower of Babel, and the dividing on the super continent in to the continents we have now, during the time of Peleg. Different eye shapes, skin tints, hair texture and nose shapes are family or clan characteristics passed down through the years.

Ever see someone you never met and say " he must be a (fill in the last name) because he looks just like them"?.  Family traits at work.

Pappy


----------



## Artfuldodger (Mar 31, 2012)

NE GA Pappy said:


> And to the OP, no, Cains curse was not being black. The different "races" did not appear until after the tower of Babel, and the dividing on the super continent in to the continents we have now, during the time of Peleg. Different eye shapes, skin tints, hair texture and nose shapes are family or clan characteristics passed down through the years.
> 
> Pappy


I've read about Peleg and the dividing continents but I can't see how that accounts for all the racial differences. Wasn't the tower of Babel story about creating different languages and not races?
I'm thinking the different races might just be "natural selection" which Christians can believe in because it's not about evolution or creation.


----------



## Tim L (Apr 27, 2012)

Actually the decendants of Cain are the Bigfoots and their families.  Cain was afraid that the people would kill him for killing Abel, so God turned him into a bigfoot so that folks wouldn't mess with him. Now Cain and his folks roam the earth, but most now live up in the hills around Paris Tennessee.  Cain and his boys used to chase the circuit riding preachers through the mountains in the 1800's (but they stayed out Hayes County in western North Carolina)...But the circuit riders would get away because whenever Cain got close he had to stop and recite his creed (I am Cain who was cast out of the graden of Eden and paradise because, well you know the rest) and by the time he finished they were gone..


----------



## Ronnie T (Apr 27, 2012)

Tim L said:


> Actually the decendants of Cain are the Bigfoots and their families.  Cain was afraid that the people would kill him for killing Abel, so God turned him into a bigfoot so that folks wouldn't mess with him. Now Cain and his folks roam the earth, but most now live up in the hills around Paris Tennessee.  Cain and his boys used to chase the circuit riding preachers through the mountains in the 1800's (but they stayed out Hayes County in western North Carolina)...But the circuit riders would get away because whenever Cain got close he had to stop and recite his creed (I am Cain who was cast out of the graden of Eden and paradise because, well you know the rest) and by the time he finished they were gone..



I'm with ya Tim, even though a lot of people don't believe that.


----------



## Tim L (Apr 27, 2012)

Ronnie T said:


> I'm with ya Tim, even though a lot of people don't believe that.



Yep


----------

