# Predestination-A Theological Fulcrum



## Banjo (Feb 25, 2009)

Predestination - A Theological Fulcrum
By Al Cronkrite
www.covenantnews.com

"We are constantly opposed, and yet perpetually preserved!" Charles Spurgeon.

My mother's family was Methodist for several generations. My sisters and I were raised in a Methodist Church in a small town in Mid-Western United States. The little town was also home to a Presbyterian Church. Mother told us the difference between the two churches involved God controlling everything from His throne in Heaven and people controlling their own lives here in His creation. Dad's family had been Presbyterian but when he married my mother he converted to Methodism. Dad was a thirty-third degree Mason.

During my lifetime, Christian revivals have been long on the human factor and short on the God factor. Great efforts have been made to devise attractive presentations. There has been heavy emphasis on accepting Christ and making a decision for Christ. Church leaders have been teachers and churches have worked to heal families and individuals through counseling. Evangelism, spreading the Gospel by fulfilling the Great Commission, tops the objective list of most churches with growing in Christ, being nurtured in the church, finding peace, being set free from sin, loving one another, being healed, receiving the Holy Spirit, and experiencing the presence of God closely following. Concern was humanistic, serving the creature, as opposed to Godly, serving the King. Dispensationalism and Arminianism are responsible for much of this emphasis.

In His Word, God always does the choosing.

Why does He choose some individuals and not others? To the human mind it seems unfair. Theologians have often been at odds with the doctrine of predestination, allowing their perception to overrule the clearly defined actions of the God they claim to worship. Arminianism is common in the Christian Church.

The contention between Calvinism and Arminianism involves selection and volition. Calvinists contend that God does not choose everyone and that those He chooses not only are unable to resist but are permanently His thereafter. Arminians contend that God chooses everyone but many resist deciding against redemption. They also believe that some who have been converted backslide into secularism. The distinction is of the utmost importance!

Deuteronomy 14:21 reads, "Do not eat anything you find already dead. You may give it to an alien living in any of your towns, and he may eat it, or you may sell it to a foreigner. But you are a people holy to the LORD your God. Do not cook a young goat in its mother's milk."

I Corinthians 6:2-3 reads, "Or do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is judged by you, are you not competent to constitute the smallest law courts? Do you not know that we shall judge angels? How much more, matters of this life?"

A catastrophic result of Arminianism is the loss of understanding of the special place God's chosen people hold in His creation. Jews cling to an erroneous choosiness while Christians possess it but fail to utilize it. Jews act like God's chosen people while Christians act like humanists.

While there is nothing special about a person who chooses to become a Christian, there is something special about a person who was chosen by God as the Apostle Paul was chosen in the Book of Acts.

Prior to the Diaspora, the Jews were God's chosen people. They were the descendents of a chosen man named Abraham. God did not choose everyone. He chose Abraham and his progeny. They were a special people, precious to the Lord. God wanted them to have a higher respect for themselves than for people whom He had not chosen. Meat from dead animals could be given or sold to foreigners but was not to be eaten by His Chosen people.

After instructing the Corinthians to judge the church instead of the world, the Apostle Paul chides them for using pagan courts instead of judging within their own body of believers. He then reminds them that they will judge angels.

These verses set forth the special position Christians occupy in God's creation. God does not choose everyone. Those who are not chosen are His responsibility while those who are chosen are responsible to Him. We are a special people, precious to the Lord. We are expected to set high standards for God's church and to use our position in Christ to mold His body of believers into a potent force for righteousness.

The humanism of Jacob Arminius robs God's people of their special chosen position. It opens the door to judging those who are not selected and renders Christians common rather than specially chosen.

Arminianism encroaches on God's sovereignty. If the creature can override the Creator the creature becomes sovereign and churches can convene small groups where the Scripture is discussed and each individual can develop a personal opinion. What does not fit comfortably into the sinful human mind can be discarded allowing the Spirit of sovereignty to be transferred to the creature.

This humanistic niche into God's absolute control opens the door to a progressive deterioration in the Christian Faith. Instead of looking up to the Creator, obeying His Commandments and striving to understand His Word and His Will, the whole process is overturned with the creature demanding that the King fulfill promises for gifts, healings, and blessings while His Word and dominion are being picked away by sinful judgments and disobedience.

Most contemporary Christians consider Old Testament Law to be an onerous burden placed on God's Chosen people by a cruel Old Testament tyrant. They reject God's Laws using the propitiation of Christ as an excuse to live without legal restraint. Nothing could be farther from the Truth. God is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow, He does not change. The Laws of the Old Testament were given with the same blessing in mind as the Advent in the New Covenant. Obedience was not given as a burden but as a blessing. God mandates and enforces obedience to the Law because His chosen people are special and obedience will bring them blessings not available to a lawless secular society.

Dispensationalism has exacerbated the gutting of the Christian Faith by arbitrarily transferring the mantel from Christians to Jews. Already compromised by the Arminian heresy and led by poorly trained clergy, Christians began following a toothless and clawless lion of Judah; a lion of their own creation; another gospel.

This bogus gospel has resulted in the election and re-election of secular political parties that bear heavy responsibility for the creation of the social sewer that surrounds us. It has caused the loss of the war against secularism by allowing heretical theology to rob the troops of zeal and antinomianism to corrupt their battle plan. It has caused anarchy in the Protestant Church by trashing the work of our forefathers in the Faith. It has allowed our pastors to ignore the meat of the Gospel and the Biblical passages that support it and instead of establishing an army for King Jesus, equipped with the sword of the Spirit, and the breastplate of righteousness it has created a congregation that ignores the war and supports neo-Israel in a futile effort to help God bring about the Second Coming. It is a humanistic endeavor that fawns on esoteric teachings, healings, peace, and entertainment from ministries that ignore the Will of God in favor of large congregations and full collection plates.

The impression that people are essentially good is prevalent among Christians and the more difficult doctrine of original sin is ignored. This often translates into an injurious trust in government that allows the growth of malevolent policies that if truth has been attended would have been stopped.

It is a battle between subjectivity and objectivity. Consider, gentle reader, why you are attending your particular church. Chances are the leader is a "wonderful" Bible teacher and the congregation is lovingly concerned; you have made friends in your church and it is the center of your social life; maybe the church has a school where your children can acquire a Christian education; maybe you have become a "leader" and are one of the pastors chosen people, someone he has made to feel important. It could be that you feel you are being nurtured and are "growing" in your Christian faith or that you have invested heavily in the church and seek to help it grow. There are other reasons but take a moment and consider your motivation. All of the above are subjective and humanistic. The primary objective for attending the Church of King Jesus should be to worship, obey, and SERVE Him! We are to love each other but every Christian congregation should be centered on God, obeying Him, and working for His dominion in His creation. Obedience and dominion are the fruit God expects of His people.

Now, dear Christian, brother or sister, you have been drawn by the Father to His Son and converted to believe in His propitiation and redeeming power, but do you understand why the increase in numbers of believers in the United States has been inversely proportional to righteousness in our society? Converts are not the fruit of the Gospel. Converts are like the fig tree in Jesus' parable, they must bear fruit!

We are chosen, individually and as a Christian body, we are special, it is our duty to be obedient and to seek righteousness and justice in His creation. Righteousness, peace and joy are the ultimate fruit but first we must become God's victorious army. God's army is always victorious; there is never a question about winning. Unfortunately, in the United States His army has never been mobilized!

"Catastrophes are often useful to clearing the evil minds of God's fallen creatures. Living in the midst of the horrendous results of humanistic leverage can open recalcitrant dispositions to changing their opinions. We are at the precipice of a world catastrophe." 

"I believe in religious freedom: Everyone should be able to worship any God they choose as long as it is King Jesus!" AC


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## Banjo (Feb 25, 2009)

> Dispensationalism has exacerbated the gutting of the Christian Faith by arbitrarily transferring the mantel from Christians to Jews. Already compromised by the Arminian heresy and led by poorly trained clergy, Christians began following a toothless and clawless lion of Judah; a lion of their own creation; another gospel.
> 
> This bogus gospel has resulted in the election and re-election of secular political parties that bear heavy responsibility for the creation of the social sewer that surrounds us. It has caused the loss of the war against secularism by allowing heretical theology to rob the troops of zeal and antinomianism to corrupt their battle plan. It has caused anarchy in the Protestant Church by trashing the work of our forefathers in the Faith. It has allowed our pastors to ignore the meat of the Gospel and the Biblical passages that support it and instead of establishing an army for King Jesus, equipped with the sword of the Spirit, and the breastplate of righteousness it has created a congregation that ignores the war and supports neo-Israel in a futile effort to help God bring about the Second Coming. It is a humanistic endeavor that fawns on esoteric teachings, healings, peace, and entertainment from ministries that ignore the Will of God in favor of large congregations and full collection plates.



This sums it up nicely.


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## Double Barrel BB (Feb 25, 2009)

*amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## fivesolas (Feb 25, 2009)

> A catastrophic result of Arminianism is the loss of understanding of the special place God's chosen people hold in His creation. Jews cling to an erroneous choosiness while Christians possess it but fail to utilize it. Jews act like God's chosen people while Christians act like humanists.



Now that is true.


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## christianhunter (Feb 25, 2009)

IMHO The Jews are GOD's chosen people,and we are grafted in.As believers of THE ONE TRUE GOD.The Bible plainly teaches that he alway's has a remnant(That being the children of Israel).In The time of the anti-christ,there will be 144,000,12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel who will minister to those who are left behind.With all of the almost daily miracles from Israel,I wouldn't count them out.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 25, 2009)

Good post Banjo. The Summation was spot on.

Predestination becomes more and more clear everyday to me... I never understood it growing up or as a young adult but the more I study and the more I view the world and the people in it and the affects of some doctrines (arminian and dispensationalism) IMHO there can be no denying the truth in it and the validity of the theology. Just by it's fruits.


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## celticfisherman (Feb 25, 2009)

BTW- I am digging the new avatar!!!


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## sman (Mar 1, 2009)

I go to a Primitive Baptist church.  The only thing we are predestined to do is be conformed in the likeness of Christ.

The main way we are different from Baptist and Methodist is in the fact that we believe that God saves us not we save ourselves.  I went to a church the other night and at the end of the sermon the preacher stood up and asked who there would accept Jesus.  I am sorry but that seems like they got the shoe on the wrong foot.  We do not accept the one who created us, we pray that he will accept us.

Blessed art thou Simmon Peter among men, for it is not flesh and blood that has revealed this unto you but my Father which is in heaven.

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 

Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,


....please, please let somebody read this and then show me free will in the bible.  It is not there, in no way ever does it say :  I have given you the will to chose between heaven and Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----.  Man is corrupt, we are of the world, we would choose the world and its worldly things.  Only by Grace and nothing else are we saved.  Nothing you can do or say to get it either and people just need to learn to ACCEPT that.


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## Jeffriesw (Apr 26, 2009)

sman said:


> I go to a Primitive Baptist church.  The only thing we are predestined to do is be conformed in the likeness of Christ.
> 
> The main way we are different from Baptist and Methodist is in the fact that we believe that God saves us not we save ourselves.  I went to a church the other night and at the end of the sermon the preacher stood up and asked who there would accept Jesus.  I am sorry but that seems like they got the shoe on the wrong foot.  We do not accept the one who created us, we pray that he will accept us.
> 
> ...




Good Post!


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## Ronnie T (Apr 26, 2009)

This is another of the Christian subjects that creates problems in Christian's lives rather than clarify.
To justify this position, the investigator is required to jump all over God's word looking for ways to use unrelated scripture that might be able to strengthen this belief.
As noted in the above posts, it also takes help from many and various uninspired writer to justify this position.

*Here are the facts.

God sent His Son into the world so that all who believe in Him shall be saved!
Jesus sent His apostles out into all the world to teach the Good News about Jesus coming into the world.  All who believed were baptized.
Cornelius, was not a Jew, but he believed in God and "sought" God.  God heard Cornelius so he sent Peter that Cornelius could be taught and saved.

*Why does predestination need to be brought into the Gospel as a doctrine of God??????
If predestination is so, it matters not to us.  The subject would be held tightly in the realm of the Devine.
I'll use one of Pigpen's phrases:  Hogwash.

I find it to not truly be supported by the thought and guidance of the Spirit inspired Gospel.


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## Lowjack (Apr 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> This is another of the Christian subjects that creates problems in Christian's lives rather than clarify.
> To justify this position, the investigator is required to jump all over God's word looking for ways to use unrelated scripture that might be able to strengthen this belief.
> As noted in the above posts, it also takes help from many and various uninspired writer to justify this position.
> 
> ...



Just more churchianity theology; God sent his son as you said to saved the world.
That's it that's all you should be concerned about, that is another thing the Church should have learned from the root(Israel) God gave the law to sanctify Israel, who is saved and who is not is up to God, that is why Jews Trust in God, instead of dictating to God, hey I'm saved because I'm a good boy.
Jews say save me oh God according to your Mercy.
Never take your Spirit from me.

See the difference ?


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## Huntinfool (Apr 27, 2009)

Predestination is the truth.  If you believe the Bible is the Word of God...then it is the truth....it's in there.

Now, that said, I do not believe that anyone who claims that only certain of creation are intended to be saved understands what "predestined" actually means and I will leave it at that.  There are issues of time and eternity that we will NEVER be able to comprehend.

I'm with Ronnie on this one though.  What you believe about the subject is not foundational and if you require it be so, then you are caught up in something other than the message of salvation.


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## Lowjack (Apr 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Predestination is the truth.  If you believe the Bible is the Word of God...then it is the truth....it's in there.
> 
> Now, that said, I do not believe that anyone who claims that only certain of creation are intended to be saved understands what "predestined" actually means and I will leave it at that.  There are issues of time and eternity that we will NEVER be able to comprehend.
> 
> I'm with Ronnie on this one though.  What you believe about the subject is not foundational and if you require it be so, then you are caught up in something other than the message of salvation.


"Those who He foreknew he also predestinated to be saved "
What I'm Saying I don't worry about it, if he predestinated me to be saved , then I will be saved, and no matter how bad I'm he will bring me to him eventually, so why make a big theology deal about it ?
All we can do is preach the Gospel to all, those who are pre destined will eventually accept it and those who do not, will have to deal with Judgement.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 27, 2009)

Agreed.  The question always comes down to "who did he predestine?"

I don't think that we can really understand the concept.  He doesn't work or exist on a timeline like we do.

We can only think of it in terms of time.  That's how we work....He does not.

Personally, I cannot understand (nor do I read it this way) why he would create a human in his image and not intend for that person to be saved.  He certainly knows who will and who will not.  But, never will you convince me that he creates certain humans with the intent of not extending the same grace to each one of them that he's extended to me.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> This is another of the Christian subjects that creates problems in Christian's lives rather than clarify.
> 
> To justify this position, the investigator is required to jump all over God's word looking for ways to use unrelated scripture that might be able to strengthen this belief.
> 
> As noted in the above posts, it also takes help from many and various uninspired writer to justify this position.



I haven't found that to be true in my life.  I think we don't think people can handle difficult doctrines, so we avoid them.  I think you get what you expect.  The trinity is a difficult doctrine too (and must be expounded upon by extra-biblical sources).  Should we avoid talking about that as well?  No uninspired writers are needed to justify predestination.  It's clearly taught in Ephesians and elsewhere.  Like other doctrines, extra-biblical explanation can be helpful.

I am curious though...what unrelated texts are you talking about?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 27, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But, never will you convince me that he creates certain humans with the intent of not extending the same grace to each one of them that he's extended to me.



Do you treat your wife the exact same as you treat every other woman you come in contact with?


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## Ronnie T (Apr 27, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I haven't found that to be true in my life.  I think we don't think people can handle difficult doctrines, so we avoid them.  I think you get what you expect.  The trinity is a difficult doctrine too (and must be expounded upon by extra-biblical sources).  Should we avoid talking about that as well?  No uninspired writers are needed to justify predestination.  It's clearly taught in Ephesians and elsewhere.  Like other doctrines, extra-biblical explanation can be helpful.
> 
> I am curious though...what unrelated texts are you talking about?



I personally don't believe what's recorded in Ephesians is the "doctrine" of predestination.  There is no "doctrine" of predestination.  There is a reference to a predetermination that God has made but for us to turn that into a doctrine for us to study carries the issue farther than God intended.
What ever God has predestined, is Divine in nature and none of mine or your business.  We don't understand it.  We cannot use it.  The more we teach it, the more harm we'll do.
Teach the Gospel.  Carry it to all the people of the world.  Pray that everyone will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.  Then, leave the rest to God.
In other word, as civil as I can put this,  "Stay out of God's business".  "You'll only mess it up".


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## charlieboy (Apr 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I personally don't believe what's recorded in Ephesians is the "doctrine" of predestination.  There is no "doctrine" of predestination.  There is a reference to a predetermination that God has made but for us to turn that into a doctrine for us to study carries the issue farther than God intended.
> What ever God has predestined, is Divine in nature and none of mine or your business.  We don't understand it.  We cannot use it.  The more we teach it, the more harm we'll do.
> Teach the Gospel.  Carry it to all the people of the world.  Pray that everyone will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.  Then, leave the rest to God.
> In other word, as civil as I can put this,  "Stay out of God's business".  "You'll only mess it up".




How do you know what God intended? Just because you don't understand and will mess it up does not mean everyone else will. Just because one is dull of understanding does not mean everyone else is. I believe you would mess it up!! Thankfully God has given teachers to his church ,His word, and Spirit. The Gospel is the entire revelation of the word of God.


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## Lowjack (Apr 27, 2009)

Was He!! Created for mankind ?


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## gtparts (Apr 27, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> Was He!! Created for mankind ?



No, God made it for the devil and his demons. Even so, those who place their "treasure" in service to the devil will find their heart set against God and focused on the things of the evil one. God knows full well that where our treasure is, our heart will be also. (And where our heart is, our soul will be also.)


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## pigpen1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'll use one of Pigpen's phrases:  Hogwash.



 I like that phrase and I think it fits perfectly for this subject and if God's will was that some people could not be saved even if they wanted to, why would His will be that none should perish  but that "ALL" should come to repentance?

2 Peter 3:9

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .KJV


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 27, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> What ever God has predestined, is Divine in nature and none of mine or your business.  We don't understand it.  We cannot use it.



What can we understand?  What should we attempt to understand?  What if you're witnessing to someone who is schooled in philosophy and they believe that exhaustive foreknowledge and the libertarian free will that you propose are incompatible?

My point is that you can't limit your faith to the issues you find useful.  Whatever you label predestination, it is clearly an issue that Paul addressed.  Just because it is not easily understood does not mean that it should be forsaken.

Convenience is never an aid to truth.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 27, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I like that phrase and I think it fits perfectly for this subject and if God's will was that some people could not be saved even if they wanted to, why would His will be that none should perish  but that "ALL" should come to repentance?



The doctrines of grace hold nothing of that sort.


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## charlieboy (Apr 27, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I like that phrase and I think it fits perfectly for this subject and if God's will was that some people could not be saved even if they wanted to, why would His will be that none should perish  but that "ALL" should come to repentance?
> 
> 2 Peter 3:9
> 
> 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .KJV



I think the "all" in that passage is referring to the ELECT of God. Check out who the letter is addressed to in chapter one.Predestination is important because it really defines who believes God is the ultimate authority in ALL things.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 27, 2009)

charlieboy said:


> I think the "all" in that passage is referring to the ELECT of God. Check out who the letter is addressed to in chapter one.Predestination is important because it really defines who believes God is the ultimate authority in ALL things.



 Ok what about whosoever???

 John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
KJV


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## pigpen1 (Apr 27, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> The doctrines of grace hold nothing of that sort.



 The doctrine of predestination does.


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## THREEJAYS (Apr 27, 2009)

Eph 6:9  And masters , treat your slaves in the same way.Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both thier master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favortism with him.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Another question for the predestination folks. Why did Christ die for the sins of the Whole World?

1 John 2:2

2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world .
KJV


  Why doesn't it say He only died for the elects sins only?


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## THREEJAYS (Apr 27, 2009)

rev 3 :20 tells us he stands at the door and knocks and if anyone hears his voice and opens the door I will come in and eat with him and he with me.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 27, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> The doctrine of predestination does.



Uh...no.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 27, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Another question for the predestination folks. Why did Christ die for the sins of the Whole World?
> 
> 1 John 2:2
> 
> ...



Not everyone who affirms predestination believes in limited atonement.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 27, 2009)

What ever Paul was speaking of in Ephesians or 1Corinthians he was not speaking of a doctrine of predestination.....
....not according to the following verse.

Romans 11:22 (New American Standard Bible)
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.


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## formula1 (Apr 27, 2009)

*Re:*

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Ephesians 1
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. 

1 Peter  
9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

I put these scriptures for all to see, because what I am about to say I hope you folks can see.  There are two things I see about predestination that are important to me:

1) God made a plan for the redemption of man before the foundation of the world.  Notice Ephesians 1:4.

2) We are included in His plan of redemption if we are Christ's. Ephesians 1:5-6. Who did God foreknow? All those who accept His plan.

Therefore it is my contention that which is predestined is the redemption plan of God, and the people who make up the redeemed are all of those who accepted that redemption plan. Your acceptance of God's plan of salvation is the method by which He chooses you!!!!

Put another way, the Redemption Plan is predestined, individuals who choose it are not!!!

One more scripture - John 3
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

I do not claim to be Bible scholar, but I know God redeems all who accept His plan.  It's really that simple!


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## pigpen1 (Apr 27, 2009)

I like what the Angel said when Christ was born.

 Luke 2:10-11

10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.
11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
KJV

  Notice he said to ALL PEOPLE.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 27, 2009)

Acts 2:21

21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV

Acts 10:43

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
KJV

Rom 10:13

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
KJV


  I guess we need to change "whosoever" to "afewsoever".


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2009)

formula1 said:


> Romans 8
> 28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
> 
> Ephesians 1
> ...



I suspect your explanation is right-on.
That explanation allows all other scripture to work well with those words.


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## Banjo (Apr 28, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Agreed.  The question always comes down to "who did he predestine?"
> 
> I don't think that we can really understand the concept.  He doesn't work or exist on a timeline like we do.
> 
> ...



Was it not a form of predestination when God chose the nation Israel?  What happened to all the other pagan nations made up of individuals who were made in God's image?  What about Pharaoh?  What about Judas?

What do you do with the following statement found in the Bible:

"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."


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## Banjo (Apr 28, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Acts 2:21
> 
> 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
> KJV
> ...



The only ones that come are the elect as the Holy Spirit quickens their hearts.

God is the AUTHOR of salvation.  

If Jesus died for the sins of every single individual on this earth....then every single individual on this earth will be saved.  His blood is that effectual.

I guess this would throw those who believed that in to the Universalist ring.  It would mean everybody...no matter what they believed....would be saved in the end.


----------



## Huntinfool (Apr 28, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Do you treat your wife the exact same as you treat every other woman you come in contact with?



In the sense that they are children of God?  You bet.

But I hear what you're saying....I'm not God though.  Big difference.


----------



## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Was it not a form of predestination when God chose the nation Israel?  What happened to all the other pagan nations made up of individuals who were made in God's image?  What about Pharaoh?  What about Judas?
> 
> What do you do with the following statement found in the Bible:
> 
> "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."



Exactly, God's chosing Israel was a form of predestination.  But God chose the Nation.  Individually, they had to choose to serve God.  If they didn't, they died in the desert.
Then God sent His Son to Israel.  Israel was to have a Savior who would give them forgiveness of sin with His blood rather than from another animal.  
But this predestined Israel refused Jesus as the Messiah.  

Then God revealed that He had predestined "ALL" who believed in His Son to beome His children.

Concerning the scripture you quoted:  
"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy."
I'm glad you posted it.  It is not in the realm of our know=how for us to formulate doctrinal issues.
Let's let God deal with those issues.


----------



## Huntinfool (Apr 28, 2009)

Banjo said:


> The only ones that come are the elect as the Holy Spirit quickens their hearts.
> 
> God is the AUTHOR of salvation.
> 
> ...



Banjo, you and I are on the same page with your first statement.  I think the second is where we go off course.

I think you're twisting things a bit.  



> If Jesus died for the sins of every single individual on this earth....then every single individual on this earth will be saved.  His blood is that effectual.



You're right.  IF he had did to forgive the sins of everyone they would be forgiven and come to know him.  But that's not what happened.  He died to COVER the sins of every single individual on earth...not to forgive them.  Forgiveness comes with repentence.  Everyone and anyone can do that IMO.  

He did not die on that cross so that only a few would be forgiven....he died on that cross so that all COULD be forgiven.

I have never said, and you will never hear me say that all WILL be saved.  I don't buy that.  But I believe with all my heart that every single person on this earth has to opportunity for salvation.  If they are presented the gospel, repent and believe...they will be saved.  

As I said before, you will never convince me that God sent Jesus here to suffer like that and to die like that only to save part of humanity.  He loves us all...he created us all...we are all made in his image and he wants us all to be with him.


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## Banjo (Apr 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Exactly, God's chosing Israel was a form of predestination.  But God chose the Nation.  Individually, they had to choose to serve God.  If they didn't, they died in the desert.
> Then God sent His Son to Israel.  Israel was to have a Savior who would give them forgiveness of sin with His blood rather than from another animal.
> But this predestined Israel refused Jesus as the Messiah.
> 
> ...



Yes...there was a sense of "national" predestination...although not necessarily "savingly."  All the Jewish people were not elect as evidenced by those who perished in the wilderness.  They did not have faith granted to them by God.  Yet, there were still advantages to being among God's people...His protection, His provision, etc.

Kind of like the church today...There are to be found tares amongst the wheat.  

Did Abraham choose to serve God and leave Ur...or did God call him out?


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## Banjo (Apr 28, 2009)

> He did not die on that cross so that only a few would be forgiven....he died on that cross so that all COULD be forgiven.



So there was a chance that NOBODY would have been saved???  



> As I said before, you will never convince me that God sent Jesus here to suffer like that and to die like that only to save part of humanity. He loves us all...he created us all...we are all made in his image and he wants us all to be with him.



Does God love the wicked?

"I hate the assembly of evildoers" (Ps. 26:5) 

"Do I not hate those who hate Thee, O Lord? And do I not loathe those who rise up against Thee? I hate them with the utmost hatred; they have become my enemies" (Ps. 139:21-22). 

"I have hated Esau" (Mal. 1:3; Rom. 9:13).


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## Huntinfool (Apr 28, 2009)

> So there was a chance that NOBODY would have been saved???



Nope.  Some already had....the thief on the cross....the apostles.  But, yes, there was the chance that no others would believe.



> Does God love the wicked?
> 
> "I hate the assembly of evildoers" (Ps. 26:5)
> 
> ...



Of course he does!  They are not created for evil....they DO evil.

I know it all comes down the the fact that you believe God does the choosing and the saving and we do nothing.

I believe that God covered our sins with the blood of Christ in order that we might be saved.  He gives us the choice to accept that grace or reject it.  We do nothing to derserve it.  Don't mis-read me.  We do nothing to deserve it or earn it.  But we do have a part to play.  The grace is extended.  The sins have been covered.  But we have a choice to make.

He CAN "force" salvation on us.  Of course he can.  He can do anything he pleases.  But he doesn't.  There's a big difference there.

None of this is dealbreaker material IMO.  There are those who will be saved and those who will not.  Bottom line.  Those who are will have to eternal blessing of worshiping God forever.  Those who aren't will not.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> What ever Paul was speaking of in Ephesians or 1Corinthians he was not speaking of a doctrine of predestination.....
> ....not according to the following verse.
> 
> Romans 11:22 (New American Standard Bible)
> 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.



Whoa now.  You just posted about folks stringing together unrelated Scriptures to support their point.

Regardless, what is the "doctrine of predestination" that you keep referring to?  I'm just trying to understand what you believe that "doctrine" entails.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2009)

Banjo said:


> The only ones that come are the elect as the Holy Spirit quickens their hearts.
> 
> God is the AUTHOR of salvation.
> 
> ...



What exactly is the objection to this notion?  Is it that one wants to feel "special" or deserving? Like in some kind of elite club?  I thought salvation isn't based on "works".  

If predestination is true, and I can't see how it cannot be if God is all knowing and the author of salvation, then he may have predestined Jeffrey Dahmer to go to Heaven and Mother Teresa to go to He11, for whatever strange and mysterious reason (incomprehensible to us puny human minds).  

So one can live their life by Scriptures, "tow the party line", tithe, pray, be kind to animals and children, ask for salvation and still burn in He11fire.  Or one can be a cavorting, licentious, murdering sadist and be destined for Heaven, If it is in God's enigmatic plan.  

I like it.   This line of thinking encourages one to put all their efforts into the here and now since the afterlife is not within one's control.   Be true to yourself.  Be a gay if that's what you are compelled to do.  Be a murderer (if you can accept the risk of getting caught) or be a nice guy, if that's your nature or you've determined that being nice will give you the most satisfaction.  But certainly don't ever feel guilty (except to your fellow man) since your hand is guided by the "Author" every second of the day.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 28, 2009)

Salvation isn't earned, but condemnation is.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 28, 2009)

Banjo said:


> The only ones that come are the elect as the Holy Spirit quickens their hearts.
> 
> God is the AUTHOR of salvation.
> 
> ...



 I understand that it takes the drawing power of the Holy Ghost to come to the Lord, but what I have a problem with is the doctrine that there are people who the Lord doesn't deal with. It says in this verse that He has given a measure of Faith to every man, I think it is up to them if they accept or reject when it is given.

 Rom 12:3

3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
KJV


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## pigpen1 (Apr 28, 2009)

I have another Question. Can one of the Elect go to He11?


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## Lowjack (Apr 28, 2009)

gtparts said:


> No, God made it for the devil and his demons. Even so, those who place their "treasure" in service to the devil will find their heart set against God and focused on the things of the evil one. God knows full well that where our treasure is, our heart will be also. (And where our heart is, our soul will be also.)



So How many people do you think ,truly sell out to the devil, other than dictators and some of the most illustrious Billionaires of the World ?


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Did Abraham choose to serve God and leave Ur...or did God call him out?




God called, Abraham responded, and it was credited to Abraham as righteousness because Abram responded in faith.


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## charlieboy (Apr 28, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I understand that it takes the drawing power of the Holy Ghost to come to the Lord, but what I have a problem with is the doctrine that there are people who the Lord doesn't deal with. It says in this verse that He has given a measure of Faith to every man, I think it is up to them if they accept or reject when it is given.
> 
> Rom 12:3
> 
> ...



Don't worry,God deals with every man,but according to his own purpose. Please consider context when you read the bible. who wrote,who were they writing to, why , ect. put your self in the readers place back then and maybe you will understand more clearly.


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## charlieboy (Apr 28, 2009)

Everyone seems to think God owes everyman salvation! Should we not be asking Why God should save any?? He don't owe no man anything,it is pure grace and mercy that he would save any(the elect)Romans chapter 9 ought to be enough to convince a christian that chooses based on the councel of his own will.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 28, 2009)

charlieboy said:


> Everyone seems to think God owes everyman salvation! Should we not be asking Why God should save any?? He don't owe no man anything,it is pure grace and mercy that he would save any(the elect)Romans chapter 9 ought to be enough to convince a christian that chooses based on the councel of his own will.



 I will ask this question again. Can one of the elect go to He11?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 28, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I will ask this question again. Can one of the elect go to He11?



I'll bite...nope.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2009)

So far, none of the scripture used to support predestination of a particular soul into heaven have come from the book of Acts.  It is that book that records the carrying of the gospel to the unsaved.  What does it say concerning who might be saved?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 28, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> What does it say concerning who might be saved?



Nothing.  That's the "argument from silence" and it's a logical fallacy.


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## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> So How many people do you think ,truly sell out to the devil, other than dictators and some of the most illustrious Billionaires of the World ?



Who can know whether or not on their death beds, with their final breaths they repented and received salvation, by God's design, while a humble servant was denied ?


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## pigpen1 (Apr 28, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I'll bite...nope.



 Ok then, there is No need for Church, Preaching or even carrying the Gospel to all nations. We might as well stay home and live like we want to, because if we are of the Elect we will be in heaven no matter what and if we are not He11 will be our home and by your doctrine nothing will change that so why not just live it up and not worry about our loved ones going to He11.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 28, 2009)

In Acts 10 Peter speaks of who the Gospel is for and who will be accepted into the kingdom of God.
Peter does not mention an individual predestination of salvation.


34Opening his mouth, Peter said: "I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 
36"The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)-- 
37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 
38"You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 
39"We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem They also put Him to death by hanging Him on a cross. 
40"God raised Him up on the third day and granted that He become visible, 
41not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, that is, to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead. 
42"And He ordered us to preach to the people, and solemnly to testify that this is the One who has been appointed by God as Judge of the living and the dead. 
43"Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins." 
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those


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## ambush80 (Apr 28, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Ok then, there is No need for Church, Preaching or even carrying the Gospel to all nations. We might as well stay home and live like we want to, because if we are of the Elect we will be in heaven no matter what and if we are not He11 will be our home and by your doctrine nothing will change that so why not just live it up and not worry about our loved ones going to He11.



You should live it up and encourage your loved ones to do the same, but don't be a jerk while you're at it.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 29, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> Ok then, there is No need for Church, Preaching or even carrying the Gospel to all nations. We might as well stay home and live like we want to, because if we are of the Elect we will be in heaven no matter what and if we are not He11 will be our home and by your doctrine nothing will change that so why not just live it up and not worry about our loved ones going to He11.



There is a need because we don't know by what means the Lord will call the elect.  Furthermore, we are COMMANDED to preach the Gospel to all nations.  Also, our preaching the Gospel to the non-Elect serves a purpose in and of itself. 

If one were to stay home and do whatever he wanted, he would not be elect.


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## Banjo (Apr 29, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> What exactly is the objection to this notion?  Is it that one wants to feel "special" or deserving? Like in some kind of elite club?  I thought salvation isn't based on "works".
> 
> If predestination is true, and I can't see how it cannot be if God is all knowing and the author of salvation, then he may have predestined Jeffrey Dahmer to go to Heaven and Mother Teresa to go to He11, for whatever strange and mysterious reason (incomprehensible to us puny human minds).
> 
> ...




Way to take Christianity and totally twist it...You aren't the first to do so.  

When the Lord converts someone, they change.  With no change, there has been no true conversion.

How do I know this?  It happened to me...and many that I know personally.


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## Banjo (Apr 29, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> There is a need because we don't know by what means the Lord will call the elect.  Furthermore, we are COMMANDED to preach the Gospel to all nations.  Also, our preaching the Gospel to the non-Elect serves a purpose in and of itself.
> 
> If one were to stay home and do whatever he wanted, he would not be elect.



I agree.  The outward call goes out to all men...but the inward call is received by those whom the Lord calls.  Since the elect don't walk around with a capital "E" on their foreheads, we are to preach the gospel unashamedly to all.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 29, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> There is a need because we don't know by what means the Lord will call the elect.  Furthermore, we are COMMANDED to preach the Gospel to all nations.  Also, our preaching the Gospel to the non-Elect serves a purpose in and of itself.
> 
> If one were to stay home and do whatever he wanted, he would not be elect.



 But you said not one of the elect could go to He11, so why even try. If the work that we labor for makes the differance in a soul going to Heaven or He11, I say give it our all, but if it isn't going to make the differance then why bother?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 29, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> But you said not one of the elect could go to He11, so why even try. If the work that we labor for makes the differance in a soul going to Heaven or He11, I say give it our all, but if it isn't going to make the differance then why bother?



You try because you're commanded to try.  Unless you've got the book, you don't know who's elect and who's not.

Tell me, if your work and giving your all does make a difference in salvation, isn't that a salvation based on works?

You try and you give it your all because God commands it and as those who love him, we want to please him and give him what he wants.  We don't try and give it our all because that will somehow earn us salvation.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 29, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> You try because you're commanded to try.  Unless you've got the book, you don't know who's elect and who's not.
> 
> Tell me, if your work and giving your all does make a difference in salvation, isn't that a salvation based on works?
> 
> You try and you give it your all because God commands it and as those who love him, we want to please him and give him what he wants.  We don't try and give it our all because that will somehow earn us salvation.



 I didn't say work to earn salvation for ourselves, but for the saved to work and carry the Gospel to the lost that they might hear and be saved.

Rom 10:13-14

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
KJV


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 29, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I didn't say work to earn salvation for ourselves, but for the saved to work and carry the Gospel to the lost that they might hear and be saved.



None of that changes if you hold to predestination.  The elect hear of the Gospel the same way everyone else does.  God uses men to accomplish his purposes.

But, unlike many a preacher has said in the past, no one goes to he11 because a certain Christian is lazy with their evangelism.  Men certainly miss a blessing when they fail to do what the Lord has commanded, but men don't have the power to condemn.  If a man is elect, God will raise someone up to carry the Gospel to him.


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## ambush80 (Apr 29, 2009)

Banjo said:


> Way to take Christianity and totally twist it...You aren't the first to do so.
> 
> When the Lord converts someone, they change.  With no change, there has been no true conversion.
> 
> How do I know this?  It happened to me...and many that I know personally.



Is conversion a guarantee that you are one of the "elect"?



johnnylightnin said:


> None of that changes if you hold to predestination.  The elect hear of the Gospel the same way everyone else does.  God uses men to accomplish his purposes.
> 
> But, unlike many a preacher has said in the past, no one goes to he11 because a certain Christian is lazy with their evangelism.  Men certainly miss a blessing when they fail to do what the Lord has commanded, but men don't have the power to condemn.  If a man is elect, God will raise someone up to carry the Gospel to him.



If you are "elect" does it make a difference if you are a bad witness?  On the other hand, if you are not "elect", but you think you are, will it make any difference how good of a witness you are or how well you followed the narrow path?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 29, 2009)

For those whom he calls, he justifies.  For those whom he justifies, he sanctifies.


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## addictedtodeer (Apr 29, 2009)

Having read these posts i would like to quote a statement I've heard many times.

"if you have a problem with T.U.L.I.P, it is always with the T"

predestination (even when it is found in scripture, either word or illustrations) will make no sense unless you first agree and understand Total Depravity.

Romans 3:10  as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 
Romans 3:11  no one understands; no one seeks for God. 
Romans 3:12  All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 

Mat 15:18  But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 
Mat 15:19  For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 
Mat 15:20  These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone." 

Gen 8:21  And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done. 

Isa 64:6  We have all become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a polluted garment. We all fade like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. 
Isa 64:7  There is no one who calls upon your name, who rouses himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have made us melt in the hand of our iniquities. 

No where can we find man, without Christ, good in God's eyes.

If the Bible is true and "no one" seeks God then we need to be predestined. If it is not true or in error then we do not need to be predestined.

Another quote I love:
"You are worse then you think you are, but God is greater than you acknowledge Him to be"

A great sermon to read on this subject is from Spurgeon "A defense of Calvinism" allow me to quote from one small section:
_John Newton used to tell a whimsical story, and laugh at it, too, of a good woman who said, in order to prove the doctrine of election, "Ah! sir, the Lord must have loved me before I was born, or else He would not have seen anything in me to love afterwards." I am sure it is true in my case; I believe the doctrine of election, because I am quite certain that, if God had not chosen me, I should never have chosen Him; and I am sure He chose me before I was born, or else He never would have chosen me afterwards; and He must have elected me for reasons unknown to me, for I never could find any reason in myself why He should have looked upon me with special love. So I am forced to accept that great Biblical doctrine._ 

Let us however not rest on anything but Christ and his work for our salvation. No one will enter into His glorious presence except by who Christ is and what Christ has done.


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## Big7 (Apr 29, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> I like that phrase and I think it fits perfectly for this subject and if God's will was that some people could not be saved even if they wanted to, why would His will be that none should perish  but that "ALL" should come to repentance?
> 
> 2 Peter 3:9
> 
> 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance .KJV



You finally said something that makes a little sense. 

There is no such thing as predestination, except in the mind
of some denominations.


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## addictedtodeer (Apr 29, 2009)

Predestined:

ESV
_Act 4:28  to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place. 
Romans 8:29  For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 
Romans 8:30  And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. 
Ephesians 1:5  he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will
Ephesians 1:11  In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, _

KJV (with Strong's numbers for the words)
_Act 4:28  For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before4309 to be done. 
Rom 8:29  For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 
Rom 8:30  Moreover whom he did predestinate,4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 
Eph 1:5  Having predestinated4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Eph 1:11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:  _

G4309
προορίζω
proorizō
pro-or-id'-zo
From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate.


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## thedeacon (Apr 29, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I personally don't believe what's recorded in Ephesians is the "doctrine" of predestination.  There is no "doctrine" of predestination.  There is a reference to a predetermination that God has made but for us to turn that into a doctrine for us to study carries the issue farther than God intended.
> What ever God has predestined, is Divine in nature and none of mine or your business.  We don't understand it.  We cannot use it.  The more we teach it, the more harm we'll do.
> Teach the Gospel.  Carry it to all the people of the world.  Pray that everyone will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior.  Then, leave the rest to God.
> In other word, as civil as I can put this,  "Stay out of God's business".  "You'll only mess it up".



I agree. 
God has chosen every single living soul on earth to be his. 

Unfortunantly every soul has not chosen God, and yes, I do believe you have to choose God.


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## Banjo (Apr 29, 2009)

Big7 said:


> You finally said something that makes a little sense.
> 
> There is no such thing as predestination, except in the mind
> of some denominations.



Hmmm....I guess you need to read addictedtodeer's post...

Predestination is evident throughout the Bible.


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## pigpen1 (Apr 30, 2009)

Big7 said:


> You finally said something that makes a little sense.



 You too! you agreed with me, how scary is that, .

  BANJO AND REFORMED PASTOR HELP!!!!!!! I need you to teach me more about predestination, because the catholics are agreeing with me now, so I must be wrong.


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## Banjo (Apr 30, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> You too! you agreed with me, how scary is that, .
> 
> BANJO AND REFORMED PASTOR HELP!!!!!!! I need you to teach me more about predestination, because the catholics are agreeing with me. I know I must be wrong now.



PIGPEN!!!!!!!!

Read your Bible.....

Do a word search on the following words:

elect
predestined
chosen

Read Romans...over and over again...letting it say what it says......

Best I can do, friend...

Maybe you are Pratholic???


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2009)

How does one know if they are elect?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> How does one know if they are elect?



They recognize that they are a sinner and trust Jesus Christ to forgive their sins and be Lord of their life.  AND, they persevere to the end.

That last part is the tricky one.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

Ultimately, we all agree, those who will be saved will be saved.  


The disagreement comes in whether there are specific people who CANNOT.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> The disagreement comes in whether there are specific people who CANNOT.



I disagree.  The questions is whether there are some specific people who WILL NOT and whether or not God is sovereign over salvation just like he's sovereign over everything else.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

You just agreed with me bud.

WILL NOT translates to CANNOT.  If God doesn't "choose" them, then they cannot.

If he is sovereign over the issue and he does not choose you, then you cannot.  If he only died to cover the sins of the elect, then there are those who cannot be saved....semantics.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> WILL NOT translates to CANNOT.



Not exactly.  Cannot carries the implication that they would if they could.  That's not the case.  They do what they most want to do.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

Cannot implies only one thing....that they cannot...are not able to...

They will not be called, their hearts won't be quickened...so they cannot be saved.  There is nothing they can do.  No amount of convincing will turn them.  Christ did not die to cover their sins.  God does not want them in heaven.

They were born doomed and will die in the same manner because they were not created for salvation.


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## WTM45 (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Cannot implies only one thing....that they cannot...are not able to...
> 
> They will not be called, their hearts won't be quickened...so they cannot be saved.  There is nothing they can do.  No amount of convincing will turn them.  Christ did not die to cover their sins.  God does not want them in heaven.
> 
> They were born doomed and will die in the same manner because they were not created for salvation.



Well knock me over with a feather pillow!
That pretty much dooms well over 70% of the current world population, and probably over 80% of those who have passed on already.

Hmmmmmmmmm............


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

I agree with you!.....If I believed that, it would be silly.  Doesn't it sound ridiculous when it's put in that light?

That's why I do not believe that God created a single person with the full intent that they would not be saved. 

Jesus died to cover the sins of ALL.  The free gift of salvation and grace is extend by God through the blood of Christ...and it is extended to all.

We do have to accept it though.  It is a choice that he chooses to give us.  He could force himself...but he doesn't.


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## ambush80 (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Cannot implies only one thing....that they cannot...are not able to...
> 
> They will not be called, their hearts won't be quickened...so they cannot be saved.  There is nothing they can do.  No amount of convincing will turn them.  Christ did not die to cover their sins.  God does not want them in heaven.
> 
> They were born doomed and will die in the same manner because they were not created for salvation.



Yes. It must absolutely be so if God is all knowing, then he knows what your fate is.

More reason not to worry about it.  It's out of your control.  Be a good person. Be kind to children and puppies.  Love your neighbor.  Not because it will get you into Heaven, that's out of your control, but because it will make your time here, which is the only thing that you have control over, more fulfilling.  

Don't worry about whether or not that Darwin stuff matches up with the Bible.  If it makes sense, believe in it.  No points will be awarded or subtracted towards your eternal soul either way.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Cannot implies only one thing....that they cannot...are not able to...
> 
> They will not be called, their hearts won't be quickened...so they cannot be saved.  There is nothing they can do.



Again, you speak of them as if they are victims.  You're leaving out the most important part.  They get exactly what they want.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

And there is that little matter of the Scripture.

Romans 9:15-24:

15For He says to Moses, "(AF)I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who (AG)runs, but on (AH)God who has mercy.

 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "(AI)FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

 18So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He (AJ)hardens whom He desires.

 19(AK)You will say to me then, "(AL)Why does He still find fault? For (AM)who resists His will?"

 20On the contrary, who are you, (AN)O man, who (AO)answers back to God? (AP)The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

 22What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much (AQ)patience vessels of wrath (AR)prepared for destruction?

 23And He did so to make known (AS)the riches of His glory upon (AT)vessels of mercy, which He (AU)prepared beforehand for glory,

 24even us, whom He also (AV)called, (AW)not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Again, you speak of them as if they are victims.  You're leaving out the most important part.  They get exactly what they want.



That's just plain silly.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> That's just plain silly.



Which part?


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Yes. It must absolutely be so if God is all knowing, then he knows what your fate is.



He does know what your fate is.  No doubt.  That does not mean he causes the outcome.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Which part?



They get exactly what they want?  

I mean, if they choose to reject, then yes they get what they wanted.

But you write that as if they never had the option to choose otherwise and I just don't buy that.  You can post all the scripture you want.  The interpretation you give can and has been refuted.

We are all born sinners.  We have all reject God.  Christ died to cover our sins so that we may choose whether we will accept the free gift that has been extended to ALL.  That's how I read it.  That's the God that I've encountered.

Again, it's all semantics.  Those who will believe will.  Some read it as God picked some to choose and didn't pick others.  I read it as God offered the gift of salvation through the covering blood of Christ to all people.  He gives us the choice to accept or reject.  But there is none who is incapable of accepting.  THAT...to me...is just silly.

All Powerful, All Knowing and Omnipresent do not, in any capacity mean All Causing.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> They get exactly what they want?
> 
> I mean, if they choose to reject, then yes they get what they wanted.
> 
> But you write that as if they never had the option to choose otherwise and I just don't buy that.  You can post all the scripture you want.  The interpretation you give can and has been refuted.



What's there to interpret?  It's pretty straight forward.  Feel free to point me to the refutation though.

What about light came into the world, but the world loved the darkness because there deeds were evil?

You act as if, in the predestination view, there are those who would just love to choose Christ, but unfortunately, they are not predestined.  That's not the case.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I read it as God offered the gift of salvation through the covering blood of Christ to all people.  He gives us the choice to accept or reject.  But there is none who is incapable of accepting.  THAT...to me...is just silly.



How do you read that chapter in Romans that I posted?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> He does know what your fate is.  No doubt.  That does not mean he causes the outcome.



Not directly, no.  But, if a being is all knowing and all powerful, he must know what his each and every action will result in.  If he wanted to, he could've changed it.

Think about the fall of man.  Had God not allowed the serpent in the garden, maybe Adam wouldn't have sinned.  Perhaps, if God had created Adam with a little more will power, he wouldn't have sinned.

Is Adam off the hook?  No.  Adam did what he wanted to do.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

That's the problem with these arguments.  Chicken or egg?  We're saying the same thing....different perspectives.

I don't think there is anyone who wants to choose Christ who can't.  You think there isn't anyone who will choose Christ who won't.  Different versions of the same story.  

I just refuse to believe that God ever creates a person with the full intent of them never having the option of salvation.  That is not true.  Perhaps that's not the version of predestination you buy into.  But it IS absolutely the version that many do.

Some are created for salvation and some are created for He||.  I don't buy it.


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## Huntinfool (Apr 30, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Not directly, no.  But, if a being is all knowing and all powerful, he must know what his each and every action will result in.  If he wanted to, he could've changed it.
> 
> Think about the fall of man.  Had God not allowed the serpent in the garden, maybe Adam wouldn't have sinned.  Perhaps, if God had created Adam with a little more will power, he wouldn't have sinned.
> 
> Is Adam off the hook?  No.  Adam did what he wanted to do.




agreed....we all do that.  But God did not cause him to do it.

I can't explain this via a forum.  But God does not work on a timeline guys.  He doesn't work within our understanding of time from start to finish.  There is no "before" or "after" for him.  So he didn't know "before" as we think of it.  Again....too hard for me to explain here.

"pre" is the only word we can ascribe to it.  But there is no "pre" for him.  He IS.

Johnny, we've not talked on here.  It would probably help you to understand that I am not a "literal interpretation" kind of guy when talking about the scriptures.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Some are created for salvation and some are created for He||.  I don't buy it.



I just don't see another way to read the passage in Romans that I posted.  All men fell, so anyone who ends up in he11 gets what they deserve.  

Do you think all men are owed the "option" you speak of?


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> It would probably help you to understand that I am not a "literal interpretation" kind of guy when talking about the scriptures.



Fair enough.  What do you mean when you say "literal interpretation" ? 

I don't take everything in the Bible literally either (I don't think Jesus' feet are made of bronze or whatever...I also don't think God has hands).  I do believe the whole thing is inspired and inerrant.

Are you meaning that even if you were convinced that Romans says what I'm claiming it says, that it may not be true?


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## Bulldawger (Apr 30, 2009)

Wow!   I found some Sovereign Grace people!!!  I figured I would be alone on here.   I have had my eyes opened to this doctrine, if you will, about 6 years ago.   So if I say something stupid... correct me.  I understand, "all" to mean all races.  As far as "whosoever will" goes, who can without the Holy Spirit moving them?   When I got saved in 97, at a little free will Church, I was setting there thinking (the entire service) about getting on my horse after service and getting drunk.  The Holy Spirit moved upon me and I cried out.  There was nothing of myself in that, other than crying out.  After I began to read my Bible, questions arose about Paul and his conversion.  I did not raise the question from myself.   I have control over a lot more than I want in my life, but Salvation... comes from the Lord.

By the way... hello.


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## Ronnie T (Apr 30, 2009)

I'll tell you what we all better do.  We better live our complete lives for Jesus Christ and carry His wonderful Gospel to as many as we can and stop thinking about whether or not God has predestined me or not.


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## johnnylightnin (Apr 30, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'll tell you what we all better do.  We better live our complete lives for Jesus Christ and carry His wonderful Gospel to as many as we can and stop thinking about whether or not God has predestined me or not.



Some of the greatest pioneers of evangelism were Calvinists.


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## Banjo (May 1, 2009)

Bulldawger said:


> Wow!   I found some Sovereign Grace people!!!  I figured I would be alone on here.   I have had my eyes opened to this doctrine, if you will, about 6 years ago.   So if I say something stupid... correct me.  I understand, "all" to mean all races.  As far as "whosoever will" goes, who can without the Holy Spirit moving them?   When I got saved in 97, at a little free will Church, I was setting there thinking (the entire service) about getting on my horse after service and getting drunk.  The Holy Spirit moved upon me and I cried out.  There was nothing of myself in that, other than crying out.  After I began to read my Bible, questions arose about Paul and his conversion.  I did not raise the question from myself.   I have control over a lot more than I want in my life, but Salvation... comes from the Lord.
> 
> By the way... hello.



Welcome, Bulldawger!  Glad to see you on here.


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## Israel (May 1, 2009)

Is there another kind of grace?


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## charlieboy (May 1, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> I'll tell you what we all better do.  We better live our complete lives for Jesus Christ and carry His wonderful Gospel to as many as we can and stop thinking about whether or not God has predestined me or not.



Predestination is part of the gospel and it's not about if god predestined YOU! It is not about you at all. Truths like predestination must be protected or there will be no gospel to preach,all there will be is a bunch of humanistic garbage.


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## Jeffriesw (May 1, 2009)

Bulldawger said:


> Wow!   I found some Sovereign Grace people!!!  I figured I would be alone on here.   I have had my eyes opened to this doctrine, if you will, about 6 years ago.   So if I say something stupid... correct me.  I understand, "all" to mean all races.  As far as "whosoever will" goes, who can without the Holy Spirit moving them?   When I got saved in 97, at a little free will Church, I was setting there thinking (the entire service) about getting on my horse after service and getting drunk.  The Holy Spirit moved upon me and I cried out.  There was nothing of myself in that, other than crying out.  After I began to read my Bible, questions arose about Paul and his conversion.  I did not raise the question from myself.   I have control over a lot more than I want in my life, but Salvation... comes from the Lord.
> 
> By the way... hello.






Welcome Bull Dawger, Glad to have you here.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I just don't see another way to read the passage in Romans that I posted.  All men fell, so anyone who ends up in he11 gets what they deserve.
> 
> Do you think all men are owed the "option" you speak of?



None of us are owed anything.  We ALL deserve death.  But he sent his son to pay the price that we deserve to pay.  He paid it for all and gives us the choice to either accept or reject.

I can't understand why some people think that concept somehow makes him weaker.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Fair enough.  What do you mean when you say "literal interpretation" ?
> 
> I don't take everything in the Bible literally either (I don't think Jesus' feet are made of bronze or whatever...I also don't think God has hands).  I do believe the whole thing is inspired and inerrant.
> 
> Are you meaning that even if you were convinced that Romans says what I'm claiming it says, that it may not be true?



No, not at all.  I just said that because there are some on here who absolutely think every single word is to be read literal and that there is no need for interpretation. 

If I were convinced, then I'd believe it.  We are on the same page there.  I have yet to be convinced though.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

charlieboy said:


> Predestination is part of the gospel and it's not about if god predestined YOU! It is not about you at all. Truths like predestination must be protected or there will be no gospel to preach,all there will be is a bunch of humanistic garbage.



Oh brother.....


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I can't understand why some people think that concept somehow makes him weaker.



I don't think it makes him weaker.  Philosophically, I don't see how that is possible though.  I see exhaustive divine foreknowledge and libertarian free-will (the choices of free beings are in no way caused by anything prior to the decision) as incompatible.

BUT, that's all secondary to what I see revealed in Scripture.  From Jacob and his brother to the passage in Romans 9, it seems clear to me that God is sovereign over salvation.

S.M. Baugh has a great chapter about this in the book _Still Sovereign_.

Traditionally Arminians affirm God's exhaustive foreknowledge and list this as the basis of his predestination (which they do not deny...finding it too difficult to avoid in the Scripture).  Yet, the free will they insist upon is free in the libertarian sense.  Baugh says these two positions are incompatible.

Here's a definition of libertarian free will from Bruce Ware's _God's Lesser Glory_:

_“This conception of freedom proposes that a moral agent is free so long as, for whatever choice he makes, he could have chosen differently. That is, given all the conditions that are true of the situation in which he makes his choice, the agent is free so long as he could have chosen differently within that identical situation in which he makes the choice.” _

Open theism is largely a response to this incompatibility.  Recognizing it, they end up denying exhaustive foreknowledge.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

I just don't see exhaustive foreknowledge and free-will as mutually exclusive.

It makes perfect sense in my mind that God knows very clearly what will happen today and into the future.  The knowledge of what will happen, does not require that he cause it.  

As I said before, time is not a concept he works in.  He IS.  He uses the past in the present.  There is no beginning, middle and end.  So, "PRE" does not require that he caused what happens today at some point in the past.  

It simply makes sense to me in that light.  I haven't gone back yet to re-read the Romans passage you keep referring to.  But I will right now.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I just don't see exhaustive foreknowledge and free-will as mutually exclusive.



I don't either.  Of course, I don't understand free will the way that most Arminians do.  I believe that men freely do what they most want to do, but the ultimate cause of the desires of those men is God.  He is, after all, the ultimate cause of everything.  

With his exhaustive foreknowledge, he knew, when he made Adam exactly what Adam would do.  There's a concept called middle knowledge.  Middle knowledge would mean that God not only knows reality perfectly, but he also knows what would've happened if circumstances were different.  Like when he tells the cities that if the miracles performed in them had been performed in Sodom, the Sodomites would've repented.  

If you take that to a personal level, you could say that God knew that had he created Adam a little differently, he may not have sinned.  Being all powerful, it seems as if he could've done that with each and every human.  Why wouldn't he?  I think Romans 9 helps us understand that.

My explanations don't often accomplish what I want them to.  Here's something from the Baugh chapter I mentioned earlier.  It's an illustration to demonstrate the "issues" with divine foreknowledge and libertarian free will.

_In the past, Calvinists and Arminians have agreed that God's knowledge is "eternal, immutable, and infinite." But this tenet is an Achilles' heel for Arminianism. If God infallibly foreknows the free choices of humans, then these choices must be certain in a way that excludes the Arminian (libertarian) concept of free will. Let us say that God knows from eternity that Jones will choose soup from next Tuesday's lunch menu; how can Jones choose salad instead? If he does, God would have been mistaken. If God's knowledge is certain, Jone's choice of soup is somehow inevitable._


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

Let me ask this though....

Why does God not choose those who are not elect?  In other words, why does he choose some who will not be saved? 

I know that it's not because of something they've "done".  But tell me what your understanding is of why he does that?  The only answer I can find is "because of his scrupulous and mysterious will".


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

> If God infallibly foreknows the free choices of humans, then these choices must be certain in a way that excludes the Arminian (libertarian) concept of free will. Let us say that God knows from eternity that Jones will choose soup from next Tuesday's lunch menu; how can Jones choose salad instead? If he does, God would have been mistaken...



The thing is, I don't agree with any of this part of it.  Why is it impossible that God can know what will happen and still allow free choice?  Is that too hard for him?  Of course it's impossible in the way that we understand things.  We work in an "if...then" world.  If X occurs, then Y must have occured in the past.  We live in a "cause...effect" kind of environment.  As I read recently, Calvin's arguments are definitely logical.  Problem is, he allowed human logic to overrule scripture.

Again, I will say that Foreknowledge does not = "Fore-causage" IMO.

What do we do with 1 Tim 2:3&4?  Does he want all men to be saved or did he predestine that only some be saved?


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Let me ask this though....
> 
> Why does God not choose those who are not elect?  In other words, why does he choose some who will not be saved?
> 
> I know that it's not because of something they've "done".  But tell me what your understanding is of why he does that?  The only answer I can find is "because of his scrupulous and mysterious will".



That's a good question.  You've already answered the most important part though...it's not because of any merit or lack of merit on the part of the elect and non-elect.  I'm not sure we get an answer from Scripture on why he chooses one and doesn't choose another.  We do know that he creates with purpose.  So, some serve the purpose as objects of mercy (again reaffirming that his choice is not merit based) and some serve as objects of wrath.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> The thing is, I don't agree with any of this part of it.  Why is it impossible that God can know what will happen and still allow free choice?  Is that too hard for him?  Of course it's impossible in the way that we understand things.  We work in an "if...then" world.  If X occurs, then Y must have occured in the past.  We live in a "cause...effect" kind of environment.
> 
> Again, I will say that Foreknowledge does not = "Fore-causage" IMO.



I agree that foreknowledge does not equal causation, necessarily.  BUT, I would say that in the case of God, he is the ultimate cause of all things and everything that came into being came into being by his hand.  This, paired with his foreknowledge means that nothing was created that God did not know intimately from the time of it's first conception in God's mind until the fullness of time.  So, he knew how his every act of creation would respond.  Had he wanted them to respond differently, he could've made them differently.  I don't see any basis for a "passive" creation which would be the only way God could've created with contingency in which he didn't cause (ultimately) the resulting outcome.  It's as if God would've had to suspend his foreknowledge in the act of creation and then take it up shortly thereafter.  I don't see any biblical evidence for this.

For a normal person, foreknowledge does not equal causation.  But, for God, that may not be the case.  What is his foreknowledge based upon?

Jacob Arminius (who wrote the 5-points of Arminianism in response to his hyper-Calvinist professor Theodore Beza...which, in turn, resulted in the 5-points of Calvinism) admitted a paradox and decided not to probe the issue any further.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> As I read recently, Calvin's arguments are definitely logical.  Problem is, he allowed human logic to overrule scripture.



This is something I hear from time to time, but it's rarely accompanied with a Scripture that Calvin's arguments are in direct contradiction with.

Which ones do you think he's overruled?


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> That's a good question.  You've already answered the most important part though...it's not because of any merit or lack of merit on the part of the elect and non-elect.  I'm not sure we get an answer from Scripture on why he chooses one and doesn't choose another.  We do know that he creates with purpose.  So, some serve the purpose as objects of mercy (again reaffirming that his choice is not merit based) and some serve as objects of wrath.



Well, in that vain....let's look at those verses closely and I'll explain why I don't read it the way you do.

Romans 9:22-23 say this...

" 22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—"

Here's where I disagree.  Verse 22 NEVER says that God prepared the objects of wrath for destruction.  It simply says that they are "prepared for destruction".  It's passive.  They are prepared via their choice for destruction...not via His choice for their destruction.

Verse 23 is entirely different and for a reason.  Verse 23 is active.  "Who HE prepared in advance for glory".  

You'll never hear me say that predestination is not true.  It is...it's in there.  But I do not see where there is ever a mention of God creating someone for wrath or destruction.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Here's where I disagree.  Verse 22 NEVER says that God prepared the objects of wrath for destruction.  It simply says that they are "prepared for destruction".  It's passive.



Verse 18 is not passive.  

_So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills._

continuing...

_You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to the molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?_

The clay doesn't mold itself.


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## Banjo (May 1, 2009)

> You'll never hear me say that predestination is not true. It is...it's in there. But I do not see where there is ever a mention of God creating someone for wrath or destruction.



Okay, Huntin.  Here goes:

II Thess. 2:13

"But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. And it was for this that He called you through our gospel that you may gain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. So then, brethren, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us." 

If God CHOSE some to salvation..logically we can conclude that others were NOT chosen.

Romans 11:7

"What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;"

There can be no predestination without reprobation.  One presupposes the others.  Because God chose a people, one can assume others were not chosen.   Just as God chose to work through the Nation of Israel....other pagan nations were not chosen...yet, individuals were elected from both the Jewish nation and the pagan nations...i.e. Joshua, Caleb, Rahab, Jethro, etc...


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

I don't agree that one presupposes the other.  In every instance that I can find, God never hardens a heart until it has FIRST been hardened by the individual.  When people persist in hardening themselves against him, he says "have it your way" and finishes the job to fulfill his purpose.  

Banjo, neither of those underlined sections tells me anything about God intentionally creating someone for wrath.  You can read it into the section if you like.  But it's not there IMO.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

IMO, they should be treated as two questions:

Why are some saved?....by God's grace.

Why are some not saved?....because of their unbelief.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I don't agree that one presupposes the other.  In every instance that I can find, God never hardens a heart until it has FIRST been hardened by the individual.



Surely you don't mean that Esau hardened himself in his mothers womb.

Romans 9:10-12:

_And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or b ad--in order that God's purposes of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."_


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> IMO, they should be treated as two questions:
> 
> Why are some saved?....by God's grace.
> 
> Why are some not saved?....because of their unbelief.



Augustine (who upheld what would come to be called a Calvinist view on predestination and election) said something similar.  If you wind up in he11, you have no one to blame but yourself.  If you wind up in heaven, you have no one to thank but God.

That's what I was trying to get at earlier.  Not being elect doesn't mean that one hasn't earned what they get.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

and the older did serve the younger.  God knew that would happen and prophesied as much.

Esau's heart began hardening when his birthright was stolen from him....in order that God's purpose might continue.  

You guys are great at posting verses that support your position.  What do you say in response to the 1 Tim passage?


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Not being elect doesn't mean that one hasn't earned what they get.



But....





> There can be no predestination without reprobation. One presupposes the others.




Right?  

You can't earn what you have been predetermined to do.  You don't earn that....it's given to or, better said, forced upon you.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> What do we do with 1 Tim 2:3&4?  Does he want all men to be saved or did he predestine that only some be saved?



Sorry, I missed this earlier.

This guy explains this far better than I could.  Ultimately, there are two wills in God and there is ample biblical evidence for it.

I understand how that sounds on its face, but I urge you to read the link I'm posting before forming a hard opinion one way or the other.

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Articles/ByDate/1995/1580_Are_There_Two_Wills_in_God/

Warning...it's LONG.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> You can't earn what you have been predetermined to do.  You don't earn that....it's given to or, better said, forced upon you.



No, that's not better said...it's totally loaded.  It's only forced upon you if you don't gladly accept it.

You certainly can "earn" what you've been predetermined to do.  Every human being on the face of the planet has earned eternal ****ation.  Those who receive it have no basis for complaint.  Those who avoid it have no basis for boasting as the only way they avoid it is through the grace of God.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

I know Piper well.  I'll see about reading it when I get time.  I'm just not sure that there is a verse in the Bible that says more clearly what it wants to say.  I can't find another way to read it even if I try.

Just really wanted to point out that while there are verses that speak to predestination in the way that Banjo laid it out, there are certainly others that point to grace that is intended for all.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> You certainly can "earn" what you've been predetermined to do.



OK...it was loaded.  But if logic rules, this isn't logical.

And neither is this....



> Those who receive it have no basis for complaint.



They certainly have basis for complaint.  If they are predetermined to "choose" to reject, then they have no choice.  There's no other "logical" conclusion.  If you are predetermined...there is no other option.  So you DO have reason to complain IMO.

I'll let you guys rest for a while.  I know neither of us is going to convince the other and, ultimately, IMO it doesn't matter.  It is, however, a very interesting discussion.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> I know Piper well.  I'll see about reading it when I get time.



I hope you do.  Agree or disagree, the explanation is a painstakingly thorough and a clear explanation.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> So you DO have reason to complain IMO.



See the Romans text again.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

You're doing this right now....aren't you?


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> I hope you do.  Agree or disagree, the explanation is a painstakingly thorough and a clear explanation.



I like him.  I do think he's a little "kooky" on some stuff and I don't agree with a lot of what he says.  But I'll never question his heart for God.  There is no doubt about that.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> If they are predetermined to "choose" to reject, then they have no choice.



Every single human created has chosen to reject.  Therefore, no basis for complaint.  The difference with the elect is that God has chosen them to become regenerate.  Not on the basis of their actions, but on the basis of his good pleasure.

Again I ask, does everyone "deserve" this second chance?  If they do, it's not grace, but justice.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> You're doing this right now....aren't you?





Not at all.  I've been through this before myself.  I'm a "convert"...

No doubt that it's a radical departure from how I was raised .


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

Ok, here's my first balk at Piper's piece.  I suppose I'll just list what I see as I go through it.



> It is possible that careful exegesis of 1 Timothy 2:4 would lead us to believe that "God's willing all persons to be saved" does not refer to every individual person in the world, but rather to all sorts of persons



Really?  Seriously?  Is there any rational person that would read that verse and say that Paul "meant" to say "all types of people"?

I think that Piper has a little bit of the problem that Pres. Obama's press secretary had yesterday in trying to explain what VP Biden "Meant to say".  He didn't want to admit that what he actually said looked bad...so he chose to reconstruct it into what he "meant to say".  I think Dr. Piper has chosen to do the same with this verse.  

But I'll continue reading.  I'm open to convincing.  But he's not started off well with me.  In trying to explain away a counterpoint to his belief, he's changed that verse entirely so that it meets what he needs it to say.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> Really?  Seriously?  Is there any rational person that would read that verse and say that Paul "meant" to say "all types of people"?



Quite a few of them actually.  Dr. Tom Schreiner words it a little differently.  He says that the all means all without distinction (race, creed, ect.) as opposed to all without exception (each individual).

Ultimately, if God's will is going to come to pass, you find yourself as a universalist unless you adopt something close to what Piper or Schreiner are saying.

For our purposes, you could concentrate on the biblical examples of God having two wills.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

Wow!  A universalist?  

Well, I suppose in the sense that all can be saved....yes, I suppose. 

But not regardless of religion or belief.  So, no, you do not find yourself as a univeralist if you believe Christ died for all.

You must still find yourself believing in the one true God for your salvation.  He did not die so that believers in any other "savior" might be saved.  

Come on Johnny.....it's a stretch at best.  It's an interpretation that helps them get to where they need to go.  

"who wants all people to be save"...."who gave himself as a ransom for all people."

He says it TWICE in that passage just to be clear.  He gave himself as a ransom for all people.  If he wanted to specify people other than Jews, he would have said so IMO.  

Those guys are going to have to come up with something better than "Well....what he really meant was..."

It's paper thin at best IMO.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> But not regardless of religion or belief.  So, no, you do not find yourself as a univeralist if you believe Christ died for all.
> 
> You must still find yourself believing in the one true God for your salvation.  He did not die so that believers in any other "savior" might be saved.
> 
> Come on Johnny.....it's a stretch at best.  It's an interpretation that helps them get to where they need to go.



Well, then you must not believe that, ultimately, God's will will come to pass.  He wants X, but if X happens, the ALL men WILL be saved.  So, either this is not the same will that cannot be thwarted, or you believe that all men will be saved.

What I'm saying is, even if you interpret it the way that you do, you still have an issue.

As for how you read the text, you were the one championing interpretation earlier, now you decry theirs?  It should be remembered that both of the guys I mentioned have doctorate degrees in biblical Greek.  That doesn't mean that they are always right or beyond corruption, but to immediately say that the only reason they say something is to justify their prior beliefs seems a bit harsh unless you have reason to believe they have character issues.

It should also be remembered that the same author wrote the chapter in Romans and the chapter in Timothy.  If you look at the entirety of Paul's writings, you'll find yourself trying to square the two positions.  The NT scholars that I've cited see the all without distinction language as a likely reading.

All that said, I think there is more compelling evidence further in the article.  Like I said, you could read the verse the way that you want to and still agree with Piper at the end.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Oh, and a few noted Calvinist thinkers believe that Christ died for all, but he doesn't choose all for Salvation.

That makes them 4-point Calvinists.  It's a minority position, but still there.  One of the most noted is Dr. Bruce Ware.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

> What I'm saying is, even if you interpret it the way that you do, you still have an issue.



Can God not desire something and not decree that it happen?  You imply that if he desires something happen that ,necessarily, he requires it.  

Let me ask you this....I desire that my children do lots of things and it is certainly within my power to require those things happen.  It is in my power to MAKE the things that I desire happen when it comes to my kids.  Which do you think reflects better on me (or glorifies me per se)?  That they learn from me and do those things on their own...or that they do them because I caused them to do them?  Which do you think I prefer?  Ultimately, the result is the same...they did it...my "desire" is fulfilled.  But which makes me happier?





> now you decry theirs?



I didn't say that ALL interpretations were valid.  I simply said that some things need to be read in context rather than robotically as some people do.

I think they are adding to the text to suit their purpose.  We all are inclined to do that.  

...and I gotta be honest, my experience tells me that letters after your name often mean very little.  I can assure you that John Piper doesn't have it ALL right and I'm sure he would tell you the same.

It's not a character thing.  All I'm saying is that they (probably unintentionally) came to a conclusion and then had to figure out a way to reconcile that with other parts of scripture.  After a lot of thought, they had to come to the conclusion that surely "all" didn't mean "all" in those verses.  I'm not saying that it was malicious.

I'm continuing to read it.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> One of the most noted is Dr. Bruce Ware.



Who also, apparently, has a doctorate degree in some sort of theological study, right?  Is he right as well? 

I'm kidding.  Just had to throw that jab in there.


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## Madman (May 1, 2009)

> Augustine (who upheld what would come to be called a Calvinist view on predestination and election)...johnnylightnin



Calvin certainly was a student of Augustine. NO doubt about that.  I try to be careful about cherry picking quotes and name dropping because you can get caught standing with someone who does not believe what you do.
There was a comment earlier something like "help I'm agreeing with the Roman Catholics...LOL” There is a lot of truth in that statement.  
I am not RC nor am I Eastern Orthodox but if we look at the early church fathers you will see no mention of predestination until the late 4th century when Augustine arrives on the scene.  And both of these denominations were much closer to the original beliefs than any of the protest-ant denominations.
There was a commonality among the church fathers that spoke against predestination.  When I read the Holy Scriptures it is evident that in His foreknowledge He knows our choice but we will always have free will.

Maybe when we have worn this one out someone will start a thread on “Once saved always saved”


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## charlieboy (May 1, 2009)

Huntin' please read "bondage of the will' by Martin Luther.I think this will help you understand total depravity, which helps predestination make sense. You can probably find it free in PDF online.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

I'll see if I can find it.  It's unlikely, though, that it will help the cause if nothing thus far has.


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## charlieboy (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool'
Does God ever learn anything?? NO, he never changes
think about this for 2 minutes.....
 Is Gods will SUBject to anyone elses?NO, He does    anything he pleases. Think about this for 2 minutes....
 Man has free will but it is in bondage to his nature,(think) GOD changes the elects nature so they CAN chose him,(think a little more)so they can seek him.Now read the book of Romans.. SLOWLY


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

Care to be just slightly more condescending?


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

> Is Gods will SUBject to anyone elses?



No, absolutely not.  Does that mean anything in the context of this conversation?  No.  He can certainly will (or desire) one thing and allow another to happen.  As I stated before, you imply that if he "wills", then it will necesarrily happen.  See my example about my children above.




> Man has free will



About that, you are correct.  But only because God has allowed that to be the case.

Now go read 1 Timothy.....SLOWLY.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

Johnny,  I think herein lies our issue (although I disagree slightly on the first section...I think there is a third possibility.).

I will say, though, that if you ask many who say they are Calvanist in belief, they will tell you without hesitation that GOD DOES NOT WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED.  Piper agrees that He does and that actually both sides agree on that.  





> _What are we to say of the fact that God wills something that in fact does not happen? There are two possibilities as far as I can see. One is that there is a power in the universe greater than God's which is frustrating him by overruling what he wills. Neither Calvinist nor Arminian affirms this.
> 
> The other possibility is that God wills not to save all, even though he is willing to save all, because there is something else that he wills more, which would be lost if he exerted his sovereign power to save all.
> 
> ...





Ultimately it comes down to why, then, aren't some saved?  He explains the differences in the second section here:

_



			The difference between Calvinists and Arminians lies not in whether there are two wills in God, but in what they say this higher commitment is. What does God will more than saving all? The answer given by Arminians is that human self-determination and the possible resulting love relationship with God are more valuable than saving all people by sovereign, efficacious grace. The answer given by Calvinists is that the greater value is the manifestation of the full range of God's glory in wrath and mercy (Romans 9:22-23) and the humbling of man so that he enjoys giving all credit to God for his salvation (1 Corinthians 1:29).
		
Click to expand...

_

I would agree with his take on my beliefs to a great degree (even though he thinks I'm wrong and he has a doctorate degree).


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> 1. Can God not desire something and not decree that it happen?  You imply that if he desires something happen that ,necessarily, he requires it.
> 
> 2. Let me ask you this....I desire that my children do lots of things and it is certainly within my power to require those things happen.  It is in my power to MAKE the things that I desire happen when it comes to my kids.  Which do you think reflects better on me (or glorifies me per se)?  That they learn from me and do those things on their own...or that they do them because I caused them to do them?  Which do you think I prefer?  Ultimately, the result is the same...they did it...my "desire" is fulfilled.  But which makes me happier?
> 
> ...



1. That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that God can prescribe certain things...like the law.  It is his will that these laws be followed, but he knows that they will not.

On the other hand, there is a different way that God wills things that they WILL happen.  Like where we read in Isaiah that is pleased the Lord to crush his son.  It was his will that he decreed to happen.

That's the whole point.  There are two wills (can't remember exactly what Piper calls the two).  If that's true, then God can elect some to salvation while willing that all come to a saving knowledge of Christ.

2. This analogy breaks down as you are not an absolutely effective father (no offense...I'm not either).  So the way that you discipline and raise your children is drastically different than the way that God, who knitted every human together and is perfectly efficient and effective in his actions, relates to his creation.

3. What do you think they are taking out of context?  They would likely reply that you need to read your passage in Timothy in light of Paul's vast amount of predestination affirming writings.

4. What do you view their purpose as?  Why do you feel they are inclined to prefer a Calvinist view?  Honestly, an Arminian view is very attractive to me, I just can't justify it in light of the Scripture.

5. I never claimed that Piper had it all right.  In fact, I went to some length to say that in my original post.  My point in bringing it up is that Piper is an "expert" in the biblical languages in question.  So, when he says something about how the word "all" is used in the New Testament, it should be, at least, considered and not cast off immediately because you read the "all" differently.  Let him make his entire case, then judge it for yourself.

6. Don't we all have to see how to best understand certain Scriptures in light of other Scriptures?  That's the goal of biblical Theology.  If it is what we say it is, it doesn't contradict itself.

7. Good.  Again, even if you end up disagreeing, you'll be hard pressed to find a better article on the topic.


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## Huntinfool (May 1, 2009)

> 1. That's not what I'm saying.  I'm saying that God can prescribe certain things...like the law.  It is his will that these laws be followed, but he knows that they will not.



Totally agree.  No issues there.



> That's the whole point.  There are two wills (can't remember exactly what Piper calls the two).  If that's true, then God can elect some to salvation while willing that all come to a saving knowledge of Christ.



Agree.  See my post above.  He definitely can will that one thing happen and allow another.  Where we diverge is the purpose.  



> 2. This analogy breaks down as you are not an absolutely effective father (no offense...I'm not either).  So the way that you discipline and raise your children is drastically different than the way that God, who knitted every human together and is perfectly efficient and effective in his actions, relates to his creation.



Now this one....this one you just avoided.  Clearly I'm not God.  But you didn't answer the crux of the question.  It's put in human terms to bring it to a more understandable level.  I can re-word it in terms of salvation and God if you like.  But you know what I'm getting at....which do you think would please him more?  To cause me to be saved or for me to one of the ones who chose the salvation that he's extended to me?  WAIT!  Don't answer that.  I know we would answer that differently.



> 3. What do you think they are taking out of context?  They would likely reply that you need to read your passage in Timothy in light of Paul's vast amount of predestination affirming writings.



"who wants all people to be saved"...."who gave himself as a ransom for all people."  He said it twice in this passage and said it very clearly IMO.  Do you deny that, in one of the two wills you refer to, he wills that all would be saved?  Piper doesn't.



> 4. What do you view their purpose as?  Why do you feel they are inclined to prefer a Calvinist view?  Honestly, an Arminian view is very attractive to me, I just can't justify it in light of the Scripture.



I think that, through careful study and consideration, they have come to those conclusions.  That's why they inclined that way.  I just happen to think they are wrong....through careful study and consideration.  Does the fact that one of us is wrong change anything?  No...not really.



> 5. I never claimed that Piper had it all right.  In fact, I went to some length to say that in my original post.  My point in bringing it up is that Piper is an "expert" in the biblical languages in question.  So, when he says something about how the word "all" is used in the New Testament, it should be, at least, considered and not cast off immediately because you read the "all" differently.  Let him make his entire case, then judge it for yourself.



I did read the entire article and listened to his case.  But, I can give you a dozen scholars with the exact same credentials who believe as I do.  Which set of scholars is interpreting the words correctly?



> 6. Don't we all have to see how to best understand certain Scriptures in light of other Scriptures?  That's the goal of biblical Theology.  If it is what we say it is, it doesn't contradict itself.



Totally agree with that.  I don't think it contradicts.  I read those passages slightly differently than you do, that's all.  The way I read it, those verses fit together just as well as they do the way you read it.



> 7. Good.  Again, even if you end up disagreeing, you'll be hard pressed to find a better article on the topic



Believe it or not, we attend a church that is Baptist in foundation (even though I grew up Weslyan Armenian).  In our small group, we are going through a Piper study.  I don't always agree with him.  But you can't deny the man's enthusiasm for Christ.  All of our elders I would clasify as believers in some form of predestination.  Some possibly stronger than others...we don't discuss it much.  

It's not a deal-breaker issue for me.


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## johnnylightnin (May 1, 2009)

Huntinfool said:


> 1. Now this one....this one you just avoided.  Clearly I'm not God.  But you didn't answer the crux of the question.  It's put in human terms to bring it to a more understandable level.  I can re-word it in terms of salvation and God if you like.  But you know what I'm getting at....which do you think would please him more?  To cause me to be saved or for me to one of the ones who chose the salvation that he's extended to me?  WAIT!  Don't answer that.  I know we would answer that differently.
> 
> 2. "who wants all people to be saved"...."who gave himself as a ransom for all people."  He said it twice in this passage and said it very clearly IMO.  Do you deny that, in one of the two wills you refer to, he wills that all would be saved?  Piper doesn't.



1. I don't see how either makes you more or less happy.  I do see how one reflects better on your kids.  

2. I don't see how it matters if you concede that there can be two wills.  Further, I agree with Piper and others on the way that all is used in the NT, but if there are two wills (effectual and prescriptive), it doesn't matter.  There is no conflict with Timothy and Romans.


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## ambush80 (May 1, 2009)

Any chance that Jeffrey Dahmer was elect an received grace just before he was beaten to death by the other inmates and that Mother Theresa was predestined to burn despite the way she lived her life?  Any chance at all?


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## Big7 (May 2, 2009)

pigpen1 said:


> You too! you agreed with me, how scary is that, .
> 
> BANJO AND REFORMED PASTOR HELP!!!!!!! I need you to teach me more about predestination, because the catholics are agreeing with me now, so I must be wrong.



Why??

If yall are using the same Bible - some version
of KJV, I presume - 
Then you should be "humming the same tune".

Why is this not the case?


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## Big7 (May 2, 2009)

*Mother Teresa of Calcutta*



ambush80 said:


> Any chance that Jeffrey Dahmer was elect an received grace just before he was beaten to death by the other inmates and that Mother Theresa was predestined to burn despite the way she lived her life?  Any chance at all?



Good questions.

I don't know much about the first one. I'm not schooled
in the doctrine of "The Elect" so somebody else will have to answer that one.

To the Mother Teresa of Calcutta question:
NO CHANCE AT ALL!

More about her Beatification in Rome
Oct. 19, 2003 HERE:
http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/

More about her most charitable life HERE:
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/peace/laureates/1979/teresa-bio.html
And HERE:
http://www.catholic.org/video/?v=822

Open these links and READ. Then You tell Me...


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## Israel (May 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Any chance that Jeffrey Dahmer was elect an received grace just before he was beaten to death by the other inmates and that Mother Theresa was predestined to burn despite the way she lived her life?  Any chance at all?




Think of Jeffrey Dahmer as everyman, no nearer nor farther from God's grace than any other...
Although it is often a comfort for the unenlightened to imagine they are a better person than another, it is just another facet of the very lie that leads to us eating one another.


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## Jeffriesw (May 2, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Any chance that Jeffrey Dahmer was elect an received grace just before he was beaten to death by the other inmates and that Mother Theresa was predestined to burn despite the way she lived her life?  Any chance at all?




As far as dahmer, Yes he very well may have been Saved at the end, Anything is possible with God,

I may not agree with His decisions, Let's face it.. There ain't to many people on earth more despicable than someone like dahmer, who in my mind deserves nothing but our scorn and then He**.
But then again what does any other sinner including me deserve, but he**?

It is only Grace provided by Faith in the shed blood of Christ that negates what I deserve.

As far as Mother Theresa, It would be hard for me to believe that She would be anywhere but Heaven, Her life was an example of humility and service to mankind that appear to be a direct result of her Faith in Christ, and evidenced by Her Commitment and obedience to Christ.

But ultimately I don't know the Heart and Faith of any other human except me, But God Does. 

His grace will cover any one whom He choose's, Even sinner's like You and I..


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## reformedpastor (May 2, 2009)

Deu 29:29  "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

John Calvin gave this advice, "When the bible stops speaking I stop asking." 

What the bible does reveal to us is that it pleased Him to leave some to their own sins. Does this make God less evangelistic or loving or fair? 

The problem I have with this line of reasoning is, when did we become His judge? When does the clay have the right to question the Potter? 

Men are not opposed to predestination in general.

"Thus its not predestination in itself which is an offense to man, but predestination by GOD. The culmination of process is control by scientific man of various aspects and phases of process, so that evolution is to be guided and controlled, life is to be created, minds invented as tools of the new gods, human minds shaped and directed bu the god of science through chemistry, and society itself made into a great machine in which man, economics, education, sexual reproduction and all else are made subservient to predestination by scientific controls." 

This quote may seem odd but if you think on what R.J. Rushdoony was saying its really spot on.


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## ambush80 (May 5, 2009)

Big7 said:


> Good questions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought "works" have nothing to do with it.



Israel said:


> Think of Jeffrey Dahmer as everyman, no nearer nor farther from God's grace than any other...
> Although it is often a comfort for the unenlightened to imagine they are a better person than another, it is just another facet of the very lie that leads to us eating one another.



Seems to me that some sins are worse than others, at least on this forum.  Apparently being gay is highly offensive, yet gluttony gets a pass (judging from some of the avatar pictures).



Swamp Runner said:


> As far as dahmer, Yes he very well may have been Saved at the end, Anything is possible with God,
> 
> I may not agree with His decisions, Let's face it.. There ain't to many people on earth more despicable than someone like dahmer, who in my mind deserves nothing but our scorn and then He**.
> But then again what does any other sinner including me deserve, but he**?
> ...



If she ended up in He11 it would be very offensive, wouldn't it?  But it's entirely possible none the less, no?


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## Banjo (May 5, 2009)

> Seems to me that some sins are worse than others, at least on this forum. Apparently being gay is highly offensive, yet gluttony gets a pass (judging from some of the avatar pictures).



This made me laugh....


Let me help you:

I Cor. 6
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

 10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 11Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

The way I read this....the sin of homosexuality is listed among the sins of fornication, adultery, drunkeness....those who practice such lifestyles will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I totally understand why nonbelievers cry "hypocrisy" when they see the Church.  We have adulterers and fornicators filling the pulpit and singing in the choir...but have no problem calling out the sin of homosexuality.

Ambush...if it makes you feel any better, the Bible also teaches that judgment begins with the House of the Lord....We have much to be judged for....

I was most of those things listed above before the Lord had mercy on me....You can rail against God and Christians....but you can't change their minds because their lives have been CHANGED....They do have "proof" of God's existence; it is evident in their lives.


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## Big7 (May 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I thought "works" have nothing to do with it.
> 
> Seems to me that some sins are worse than others, at least on this forum.  Apparently being gay is highly offensive, yet gluttony gets a pass (judging from some of the avatar pictures).
> 
> If she ended up in He11 it would be very offensive, wouldn't it?  But it's entirely possible none the less, no?



You thought wrong. Don't believe everything you read on here. Instead GO HERE:
http://bible.cc/james/2-17.htm
Next.....

Some sins are "worse" than others.
You will need to know the difference between
mortal sin and venial sin.

Sin is the deliberate, freely chosen, transgression of divine law. There are two types of sin: mortal sin and venial sin. Sin that expels all charity from the soul is mortal, while sin that merely weakens charity is venial. For a sin to be mortal, the offense must be serious (have grave matter), and the act done freely, with deliberation. After committing a mortal sin, one must receive the sacrament of reconciliation before receiving communion.

Sin entered the world through the disobedience of Adam and Eve. Original Sin is the privation of grace, inherited by all humans from Adam and Eve. Because of Christ's atoning death on the cross, we have the opportunity to have our sins forgiven, and this is not possible apart from God's grace. 
More on that HERE:
http://www.ancient-future.net/basics.html
Next.....

No - It is not possible.

Cause for Beatification/Cause for Canonization.

According to an ancient theological axiom grace builds on nature. For this reason the Church is very careful to exhaust the human and reasonable means of determining the sanctity of a person before relying on supernatural ones. As noted earlier the papal canonization process quickly developed certain procedures which had to be followed in the diocese and in Rome, such as the collecting of evidence, of testimonies of witnesses and the writing of a critical biography. By the fourteenth century two regular processes were in place, the Cause for Beatification and the Cause for Canonization. The first, when successfully concluded, allowed some measure of veneration of the Blessed by the faithful, in his or her diocese, by a religious order, by a nation. The second permitted universal veneration of the Saint by the Church. The concluding stage of each was conducted in the form of a trial, with sides for or against. The office of the Promoter of the Faith or Devil's Advocate, who argued against the Servant of God, dates from this era.
More on that HERE:
http://www.ewtn.com/motherteresa/Beatification.htm

Anything else Ambush80????


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## johnnylightnin (May 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I thought "works" have nothing to do with it.



Works do not earn salvation.  That much is true.  The Bible also says that you can tell a tree by the fruit it produces.  Good works do not produce salvation, salvation produces good works.


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## Huntinfool (May 6, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Good works do not produce salvation, salvation produces good works.



True words right there.....True words.


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## ambush80 (May 6, 2009)

Big7 said:


> No - It is not possible.
> 
> Cause for Beatification/Cause for Canonization.
> 
> ...




No disrespect, but it sounds like men claiming to know the destination of someone's soul; the will of God.  Sounds a little arrogant to me.


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## ambush80 (May 6, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Works do not earn salvation.  That much is true.  The Bible also says that you can tell a tree by the fruit it produces.  Good works do not produce salvation, salvation produces good works.



Is the fruit 100% decipherable evidence of one's salvation?


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## ambush80 (May 6, 2009)

Banjo said:


> This made me laugh....
> 
> 
> Let me help you:
> ...





I don't rail against God or Christians or Buddhists or Muslims; until their conviction causes them to do something illogical.  

Some people went the other direction.  Footjunior said he was Christian until he did some research.  He claims to be better off for it.  That's his testimony.  There are many who started off deists that later determined that they couldn't accept the illogic of it. If it made them better neighbors, citizens, parents, I'm all for it.


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## johnnylightnin (May 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> Is the fruit 100% decipherable evidence of one's salvation?



Nope.  The unsaved are capable of good works, but if they are probed, you'll see that the good works are for the wrong motive.  Of course, you can't see motives.  

There's not a litmus test.  There is only the knowledge that if someone claims to be a Christian, yet they produce no fruit, you are to pray for them and witness to them as if they are an unbeliever.  Now, you could be wrong.  Maybe you don't see their fruit...who knows?

If you're looking for a test that you can perform on someone else to decide whether they are saved or not, I don't think you'll find what you're looking for.


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## ambush80 (May 6, 2009)

johnnylightnin said:


> Nope.  The unsaved are capable of good works, but if they are probed, you'll see that the good works are for the wrong motive.  Of course, you can't see motives.
> 
> There's not a litmus test.  There is only the knowledge that if someone claims to be a Christian, yet they produce no fruit, you are to pray for them and witness to them as if they are an unbeliever.  Now, you could be wrong.  Maybe you don't see their fruit...who knows?
> 
> If you're looking for a test that you can perform on someone else to decide whether they are saved or not, I don't think you'll find what you're looking for.



Is it possible that someone is saved and doesn't even know it?  Perhaps the fruit that they grow(?) is that they set an example of tolerance or of rationality.  As you said, there is no test, then how can anyone point to someone and say "You're going to He11".  If you can't be sure what the fruits are, besides the "obvious" ones, and you can't be sure who is "really" saved or not, then what's the point in telling someone that they need to change.


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## ambush80 (May 6, 2009)

Big7 said:


> Some sins are "worse" than others.
> You will need to know the difference between
> mortal sin and venial sin.




I don't remember those terms from Sunday School.  Are they in the Bible somewhere?


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## WTM45 (May 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> ... then what's the point in telling someone that they need to change.




It's all about the following:
Conformity.  Control.  Power.  Manipulation.  Exclusivism.  Authority.  Superiority.


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## Big7 (May 6, 2009)

ambush80 said:


> I don't remember those terms from Sunday School.  Are they in the Bible somewhere?



BEFORE there was a Bible ----> There were the teachings
of Christ through The Apostiles, ECF's (Early Church Fathers) and Sacred Tradition.... etc.

Sacred Tradition comes from Christ. It's the full, living gift of Christ to the Apostles, faithfully handed down through each generation. It is through Tradition that the Holy Spirit makes the Risen Lord present among us, offering us the very same saving Word and Sacraments that he gave to the Apostles! 
Go HERE:
http://www.beginningcatholic.com/catholic-tradition.html
More HERE:
http://www.catholic.com/library/scripture_tradition.asp
http://www.catholic.com/library/Scripture_and_Tradition.asp


Think of Sacred Tradition as "story telling" like when your Father told you something
he was told by his Father whom was told the story by his Father and so-on, back to the origin. 
That would be the 33 years Christ was bodily on this earth. 

And YES - It's in The Bible many times. Some examples.
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess 2:15) 

"For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you...." (1 Cor 11:23) 

"For I handed on to you as of first importance what I also received...." (1 Cor 15:3) 

"...I know whom I have believed [i.e., Jesus], and I am sure that he is able to guard until that Day what has been entrusted to me. Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us." (2 Tim 1:11-14) 

"You then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also." (2 Tim 2:1-2) 

"...I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints." (Jude 1:3) 


This is how it was done BEFORE the Bible was compiled. 

Although everything in the Bible is true, if taken in context
and not left open for private interpretation----->
Assuming you are reading the "correct" Bible, of course.

Not everything that is true is in the Bible.


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