# Where did Cain and Abel's wives come from?



## mtnwoman (Feb 13, 2011)

My 8 and 9 yr old granddaughter's ask their mother this the other day and she ask me, and I'm asking you. We all attend church regularly but can't seem to come up with an answer for the girls. They just ask yesterday.
Please give me your beliefs on this.
I know they came from Nod, but how did people get to Nod.

My opinion is that since Adam lived to be 900, he created his own 'tribe' and Cain and Abel married either a sister, cousin, neice, 2nd cousin, or so on.


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## one_shot_no_mor (Feb 13, 2011)

*Abel?*

I think Abel's brother killed him before he ever married...
As for Cain, look here for that discussion:

http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=598420:clap:


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## apoint (Feb 13, 2011)

Adam could of had a multitude of children in 500 yrs and that many more in 900 yrs. How many grandchildren and their great grandchildren and great great great, you get my point.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 13, 2011)

I have no idea how God dealt with and provided for the wives.
But I'll bet He did a fantastic job.

And Annie, do you think you can just pack up and leave us for several weeks, then come back with no explanation at all?
We been worried about you.
You got to leave a note on the fridge or something.


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## apoint (Feb 13, 2011)

Im quite sure nobody missed me or even knew I was gone.
 Feel that love.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 13, 2011)

apoint said:


> Im quite sure nobody missed me or even knew I was gone.
> Feel that love.



Sure we missed you.  I certainly noticed you had run off for a long time.
But hey, we're guys, Annie's a nice lady.

I am glad that you're back brother.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 14, 2011)

Well I'm sorry, I get sidetracked on the forum from well hedoublehockysticks, dontchaknow. About 10% Christian and 90%whatevertheheck. I'm like a punching bag over there, well it feels like it anyway. But you know me, I can get a point across and I ain't askert either. But I do wax faint and come here to get some undergirding.

I am sorry I leave ya hangin' though and I hope that place doesn't make me too agressive. It's an artist forum but we get into politics and religion and man can we throw down for mostly a bunch of women.  I got the big C on my forehead 4 years ago when I went in and get a black eye every day I show up....LOL. I like it though. I must be doing something right or they would be just ignoring me.

I love you guys.


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## apoint (Feb 14, 2011)

Thanks brother Ron. Yes she's like a drink of fresh cool water for sure. Good to see everyone. Holy be the name of the Savior.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 14, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well I'm sorry, I get sidetracked on the forum from well hedoublehockysticks, dontchaknow. About 10% Christian and 90%whatevertheheck. I'm like a punching bag over there, well it feels like it anyway. But you know me, I can get a point across and I ain't askert either. But I do wax faint and come here to get some undergirding.
> 
> I am sorry I leave ya hangin' though and I hope that place doesn't make me too agressive. It's an artist forum but we get into politics and religion and man can we throw down for mostly a bunch of women.  I got the big C on my forehead 4 years ago when I went in and get a black eye every day I show up....LOL. I like it though. I must be doing something right or they would be just ignoring me.
> 
> I love you guys.



There isn't a more terrifying thing to contend with than a bunch of mostly women.  Yall scare me.


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## Randy (Feb 14, 2011)

You have asked a question that can not be answered via the present Bible as it is put together.  There are other writings that pose some answers but incest was not acceptable to those putting together the present Bible.  Then there is the story of Lilith but those putting together the present Bible also did not want to believe that Adam could not get along with his first wife so you won't find that either.  Though there is mention of the giants in the present Bible.  Somebody forgot to edit that part!  It was a whole lot simpler to start with dirt and keep everything on the up and up and blame the downfall of man on a woman.  Remember at that time women were believed to be substandard to man.  You could blame them and get away with it.

There are just some things in the present Bible as written that have to be left to faith.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 14, 2011)

This is more of an answer for adults, but if I was Able or Cain I'd find out where theses girl  cousins were from (Punjab) and beg one of them to marry me. Wow.

It is my understanding that this is a love song...wow...
I can see Adam's boys doing cartwheels!!!!!!


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## thedeacon (Feb 14, 2011)

God created Adam and Eve, we know that for sure. If God created on mand and woman, surely we can agree that he could create another. The bible doesn't say he created only one man and one woman.

The question ask is interesting but the possible answers are vast and even more interesting. We can just let our imagination run wild. Sometimes it is fun and sometimes not.

Whaterever happened we know that God was in control. Thats something I think we forget sometimes.


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## Crubear (Feb 14, 2011)

If you're a strict literalist, then the only answer is they were daughters of Adam and Eve and God provided the genetic disparity necessary for a healthy population.

If you aren't, then there isn't a clear cut answer except to say God provided.

I've never been able (pun not intended) to reconcile the literal view with Cain finding a wife. If he was banished from his family, and the family stayed close, then who would Cain meet? And you can't say that sisters were around then because it's clear that Cain was banished before Seth (and the other sons and daughters) were born.


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## JustUs4All (Feb 14, 2011)

Hello again mtnwoman.  Since the answer to your question is not clearly given in the Bible, we are each left to our personal opinion as to the answer.  

I share thedeacon's opinion.  God is bigger than the Bible and all of God's actions are not necessarily recorded there.  I believe that God is perfectly capable of creating all the people he wanted.  The fact that this is not specifically mentioned in the Bible does not trouble me.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 14, 2011)

Crubear said:


> If you're a strict literalist, then the only answer is they were daughters of Adam and Eve and God provided the genetic disparity necessary for a healthy population.
> 
> If you aren't, then there isn't a clear cut answer except to say God provided.
> 
> I've never been able (pun not intended) to reconcile the literal view with Cain finding a wife. If he was banished from his family, and the family stayed close, then who would Cain meet? And you can't say that sisters were around then because it's clear that Cain was banished before Seth (and the other sons and daughters) were born.



Ever consider he married a snake, from the snake clan? (East of Eden, in the land of Nod.)


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## meriweatherw (Feb 14, 2011)

Like Spencer Tracy said in the 1960 movie Inherit the Wind, the bible is a good book, but it isn't the only book. In that movie the question was asked about the wives of Caine and Abel and the preacher couldn't answer.


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## christianhunter (Feb 15, 2011)

I believe it was a sister or a cousin.THE LORD gave Adam and Eve the command to replenish the earth.It came around again with the son's and daughter in laws of Noah.I take this literally since The Command was given to the first couple.If others were created,as some suggest,why would the command be given to Adam and Eve?
Even Abraham was married to his half sister.THE LORD made exception then,and forbade it later in the time of Moses,after HIS plan had been accomplished.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 15, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> I believe it was a sister or a cousin.THE LORD gave Adam and Eve the command to replenish the earth.It came around again with the son's and daughter in laws of Noah.I take this literally since The Command was given to the first couple.If others were created,as some suggest,why would the command be given to Adam and Eve?
> Even Abraham was married to his half sister.THE LORD made exception then,and forbade it later in the time of Moses,after HIS plan had been accomplished.



Could you give an explanation of what you believe "banishment" entailed?


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## mtnwoman (Feb 15, 2011)

I know you weren't asking me....but

Genesis 4:14-16 (King James Version)

 14Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me. 

 15And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. 

 16And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

from websters
ban·ish verb \Ëˆba-nish\
Definition of BANISH
transitive verb
1: to require by authority to leave a country 
2: to drive out or remove from a home or place of usual resort or continuance


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## HawgJawl (Feb 15, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> I know you weren't asking me....but
> 
> Genesis 4:14-16 (King James Version)
> 
> ...



So do you believe that "banishment" meant something a little more severe than "you have to go move in with your sister".


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## PWalls (Feb 15, 2011)

Crubear said:


> If you're a strict literalist, then the only answer is they were daughters of Adam and Eve and God provided the genetic disparity necessary for a healthy population.



Good enough for me.


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## PWalls (Feb 15, 2011)

christianhunter said:


> I believe it was a sister or a cousin.THE LORD gave Adam and Eve the command to replenish the earth.It came around again with the son's and daughter in laws of Noah.I take this literally since The Command was given to the first couple.If others were created,as some suggest,why would the command be given to Adam and Eve?
> Even Abraham was married to his half sister.THE LORD made exception then,and forbade it later in the time of Moses,after HIS plan had been accomplished.



Good explanation.


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## christianhunter (Feb 15, 2011)

Randy said:


> You have asked a question that can not be answered via the present Bible as it is put together.  There are other writings that pose some answers but incest was not acceptable to those putting together the present Bible.  Then there is the story of Lilith but those putting together the present Bible also did not want to believe that Adam could not get along with his first wife so you won't find that either.  Though there is mention of the giants in the present Bible.  Somebody forgot to edit that part!  It was a whole lot simpler to start with dirt and keep everything on the up and up and blame the downfall of man on a woman.  Remember at that time women were believed to be substandard to man.  You could blame them and get away with it.
> 
> There are just some things in the present Bible as written that have to be left to faith.



I have to totally disagree with you.You say,"Edit The Bible?"
I couldn't disagree more.Abraham was married to his half sister.The giants were the offspring of a different mixed race....(another thread).No where in Scripture can you find an edit.It is the infallible,inerrant,Word of THE LIVING GOD!

HE commanded Adam and Eve to replenish the earth,that does not take that much imagination to understand.I'm sure you maybe mean well,but to say the Scripture is edited,is to say that in some part it is the word of men.By faith,and in truth,it is The Word of THE LIVING GOD!


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## HoCoLion91 (Feb 16, 2011)

There were other people already on Earth.  God created Adam in his own image and Eve as a mate.  All of their descendants are God's children.  Cain was banished and intermarried with the women of Nod.  The Bible is only concerned with the family tree of Adam all the way to Abraham to David to Jesus.  The world has always had other groups and families of people.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 16, 2011)

HoCoLion91 said:


> There were other people already on Earth.  God created Adam in his own image and Eve as a mate.  All of their descendants are God's children.  Cain was banished and intermarried with the women of Nod.  The Bible is only concerned with the family tree of Adam all the way to Abraham to David to Jesus.  The world has always had other groups and families of people.



That sounds very logical and reasonable.  I would guess then that only the direct descedants of Adam and Eve were held accountable for the "downfall of man".  Either no one else on earth had sinned or God just didn't care about the other people's sins.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 16, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> So do you believe that "banishment" meant something a little more severe than "you have to go move in with your sister".



Well yeah, pretty much. He needed a mark to distinguish who he was. So it appears to me he was at least far enough away from  immediate family members. I'd say death was a pretty severe punishment, too.


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## HawgJawl (Feb 16, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> Well yeah, pretty much. He needed a mark to distinguish who he was. So it appears to me he was at least far enough away from  immediate family members. I'd say death was a pretty severe punishment, too.



Cain was afraid of being banished from where the family was and feared being killed by anyone who saw him.  If the only people on earth were Adam and Eve and Cain and his siblings, and they all lived in one place, and Cain had to leave that one place where everyone on earth (his family) was, then who was out there to see him and kill him?  If they were the only ones on earth, then God could have simply said to the family "Hey, don't kill Cain".  But there would be no reason for him to tell the family to not kill Cain if God was sending Cain away from the family.  Cain should be safe from people at that point because being sent away from his immediate family also meant being sent away from everyone on earth.  

Also, since being banished was such a severe and frightening punishment, it follows that none of his sisters would have already freely chosen to banish themselves to the east.  If his siblings had already moved to the east and founded a city, then making Cain move to the east to the city with his siblings would not be a punishment at all.


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## PWalls (Feb 16, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Cain was afraid of being banished from where the family was and feared being killed by anyone who saw him.  If the only people on earth were Adam and Eve and Cain and his siblings, and they all lived in one place, and Cain had to leave that one place where everyone on earth (his family) was, then who was out there to see him and kill him?  If they were the only ones on earth, then God could have simply said to the family "Hey, don't kill Cain".  But there would be no reason for him to tell the family to not kill Cain if God was sending Cain away from the family.  Cain should be safe from people at that point because being sent away from his immediate family also meant being sent away from everyone on earth.



Assuming Cain lived as long as Adam and the rest of the family, then there were plenty of generations to come that would not be "immediate family" which would explain the need for the mark.


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## dawg2 (Feb 16, 2011)

I still say Genesis is metaphorical and every aspect is not to be taken literally...same as Revelations.


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## PWalls (Feb 16, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> I still say Genesis is metaphorical and every aspect is not to be taken literally...same as Revelations.



So, on that slippery slope, at what point do you decide what is metaphorical and what is literal? What is your guideline? Common sense?

If we can easily write off Jonah and 6 days of Creation and such as "metaphorical", how can we take other hard to believe facts (such as God becoming man to be sacrificed for our sins) as literal? If you take one hard to understand piece and say it is fact, then you are on a slippery slope when you start discounting other hard to understand pieces as metaphorical.

I choose to not have any problems with taking the Bible as literal until the Lord Himself tells me otherwise when I get to Heaven.


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## apoint (Feb 17, 2011)

Funny how some fill in the blanks on their own belief instead of believing what is written. Nothing new under the sun.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 18, 2011)

HawgJawl said:


> Cain was afraid of being banished from where the family was and feared being killed by anyone who saw him.  If the only people on earth were Adam and Eve and Cain and his siblings, and they all lived in one place, and Cain had to leave that one place where everyone on earth (his family) was, then who was out there to see him and kill him?  If they were the only ones on earth, then God could have simply said to the family "Hey, don't kill Cain".  But there would be no reason for him to tell the family to not kill Cain if God was sending Cain away from the family.  Cain should be safe from people at that point because being sent away from his immediate family also meant being sent away from everyone on earth.
> 
> Also, since being banished was such a severe and frightening punishment, it follows that none of his sisters would have already freely chosen to banish themselves to the east.  If his siblings had already moved to the east and founded a city, then making Cain move to the east to the city with his siblings would not be a punishment at all.



Well in Adams life span of 900 yrs, I dunno. I was away from my mama and daddy for 5 yrs and it was torture. And I didn't choose to banish myself I followed my job at bellsouth. Maybe in 900 yrs I might have felt differently...eh? I was also married to a musician for 10 yrs and away from home, that was torture but I loved it, too. But compared to 900 yrs, that was a drop in the bucket, so it just depends, I guess.


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## emtguy (Feb 20, 2011)

cain and able was the children the bible mentioned....thats all. Adam and eve could have had 400 children and 600 grandchildren for all we know, alot of procreation and birthing can happen in 500 plus years...the cain and able story could have happened when they both where 50 plus years old with grand kids, we have no time line on it, just that they was decendants of adam and eve.

Now to the replinishing part, in order to replinish something i would say it had to be plenished and then what/who ever plenished it had to be extinct or wiped out b/c if not it would still be plenished, there would be no need to replinish it....

See if you staock a shelf with cans of peas its plenished, and in order to replinish it i would think they all had to be removed somehow...see my point?


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## dawg2 (Feb 21, 2011)

PWalls said:


> So, on that slippery slope, at what point do you decide what is metaphorical and what is literal? What is your guideline? Common sense?
> 
> If we can easily write off Jonah and 6 days of Creation and such as "metaphorical", how can we take other hard to believe facts (such as God becoming man to be sacrificed for our sins) as literal? If you take one hard to understand piece and say it is fact, then you are on a slippery slope when you start discounting other hard to understand pieces as metaphorical.
> 
> I choose to not have any problems with taking the Bible as literal until the Lord Himself tells me otherwise when I get to Heaven.


See if this makes sense:

The senses of Scripture 
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83 
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84 
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85 
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86 
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses: The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88


Kind of like someone saying, "It's raining cats and dogs."

Literal interpretation: It's raining very heavily
Literalist interpretation: Cats and dogs are actually falling from the sky.

The Catholic Church uses the lietral sense with regards to the bible, which is the foundation for the spiritual senses (of which the allegorical is one of them).

 Inthe book of Genesis, the Creation writings are in a figurative language to make a point. Does it actually mean  God created the world in 6 literal 24 hour days? The main point of Genesis is teaching who created the world and us, not the timeframe, which really is not that important.

This does not take away from the fact that miracles exist in the Old Testament.The most important thing to consider is the writing style of the different books of the bible. Poetry is intepreted differently than historical writigs and the Bible has both styles.  The poetic parts should not be intepreted literalistically nor the historical parts figuratively. 


Again, we find ourselves in the age old debate of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin."  The truth is, it doesn't really matter, the true miracle are the angels themselves.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

PWalls said:


> So, on that slippery slope, at what point do you decide what is metaphorical and what is literal? What is your guideline? Common sense?If we can easily write off Jonah and 6 days of Creation and such as "metaphorical", how can we take other hard to believe facts (such as God becoming man to be sacrificed for our sins) as literal? If you take one hard to understand piece and say it is fact, then you are on a slippery slope when you start discounting other hard to understand pieces as metaphorical.
> 
> I choose to not have any problems with taking the Bible as literal until the Lord Himself tells me otherwise when I get to Heaven.



This question from bible scolars always surprises me.

How do we know the difference between a man and a woman as they are both human beings?

How about a Chrysler sedan and a Ford sedan, they are both cars? Or how do we know a truck from a motercycle they are both vehicles?

How do we know the difference between poetry and litterary fiction they are both litterature?

How about when Jesus or a politician is speaking plain and when he is talking in parables?

When is a speach on politics and when is it on policy?

Do we bring to our readings in the Acts of the Apostles  similar as to our readings in the Apocalypse or Revelation?

How do we distinguise a teological dissertation from a prayer?

Do we read the prophets who would write down when they were occationed with the Spirit in the same manner we read Paul and other saints who have the permanent indwelling of the Spirit? 

Do we read the Song of Songs similar to the Proverbs?

Do we eat apples similar to oranges? My be bubba does.

There are two things one must remember when reading scripture: God's ease to communicate and man's difficulties to understand.


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## dawg2 (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> This question from bible scolars always surprises me.
> 
> How do we know the difference between a man and a woman as they are both human beings?
> 
> ...



Interesting perspective, I like it.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> There are two things one must remember when reading scripture: God's ease to communicate and man's difficulties to understand.



Would you also accept it this way........

"...God's ease to communicate and man's insistance on making it very very complicated." ?


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## SneekEE (Feb 21, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Ever consider he married a snake, from the snake clan? (East of Eden, in the land of Nod.)


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

Ronnie T said:


> Would you also accept it this way........
> 
> "...God's ease to communicate and man's insistance on making it very very complicated." ?



Yes, for the world's insistance of making it simple...it is made complicated; which is why Atheits/Agnostic/Appologetic forums prosper in the simple beauties of their high IQ mathematical logic and otherwise good conservatives on political forums bait with artifical lures and think nothing of hiting below the belt.


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## SneekEE (Feb 21, 2011)

dawg2 said:


> See if this makes sense:
> 
> The senses of Scripture
> 115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
> ...



Dawg you will have to forgive me for not understanding you post, I aint much brighter than a the but crack of a firefly in dawns early light. If you condensed that to the short bus version, are you saying that the book of Gen is not speaking literaly, or talking about real people as in Adam and Eve?

I figure it has to be real, if Adam and Eve are  not real people, then Cain, Abel, and Seth proly werent either. And if  Seth werent real then his son Enos wernt real, and his son Cainan, and his great great great great ect grandson wernt real either, you know .....Jesus??


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## gordon 2 (Feb 21, 2011)

SneekEE said:


> Dawg you will have to forgive me for not understanding you post, I aint much brighter than a the but crack of a firefly in dawns early light. If you condensed that to the short bus version, are you saying that the book of Gen is not speaking literaly, or talking about real people as in Adam and Eve?
> 
> I figure it has to be real, if Adam and Eve are  not real people, then Cain, Abel, and Seth proly werent either. And if  Seth werent real then his son Enos wernt real, and his son Cainan, and his great great great great ect grandson wernt real either, you know .....Jesus??



I like to think of another possibiliy that makes every grand individual in the sceme very real. How's this:

Just as Adam and Eve were the parents of Cain, Abel, Seth et al, so is Abraham and his wife the parents of Isreal, Jews, Christians and Muslims,

and in turn so is Christ the new Adam of Methodists, Baptists, Luterians, Calvinists, Cops, Greek Ortodox, RC and another 150 christian denominations. 

In 30,000 yrs when spiritual  historians write about our relationships to one another we will be historically condensed to brothers--with some brothers being envious and murderous towards the other.

Hope this helps.


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## thedeacon (Feb 22, 2011)

mtnwoman said:


> My 8 and 9 yr old granddaughter's ask their mother this the other day and she ask me, and I'm asking you. We all attend church regularly but can't seem to come up with an answer for the girls. They just ask yesterday.
> Please give me your beliefs on this.
> I know they came from Nod, but how did people get to Nod.
> 
> My opinion is that since Adam lived to be 900, he created his own 'tribe' and Cain and Abel married either a sister, cousin, neice, 2nd cousin, or so on.





where did cain's wife come from?


GOD!!!!!!!!!!


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## StriperAddict (Feb 22, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> ... with some brothers being envious and murderous towards the other.


 
I look for the envious and murderous "brethren" coming to terms with a life-less (or Christ-less) outlook on faith as much as I do someone who has shut the door in the Lord's face.  The time I've spent with a shut door to heaven pains me to this day, but the time I now see His outstreched hand my way, with His love, grace and mercy has brought me to tears many times. Good tears, by the way.  Much like what has been discussed in the Job thread.


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## gordon 2 (Feb 22, 2011)

StriperAddict said:


> I look for the envious and murderous "brethren" coming to terms with a life-less (or Christ-less) outlook on faith as much as I do someone who has shut the door in the Lord's face.  The time I've spent with a shut door to heaven pains me to this day, but the time I now see His outstreched hand my way, with His love, grace and mercy has brought me to tears many times. Good tears, by the way.  Much like what has been discussed in the Job thread.



I'm impressed and must conclude you were called and you were found.


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## SneekEE (Feb 22, 2011)

:





thedeacon said:


> where did cain's wife come from?
> 
> 
> GOD!!!!!!!!!!


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## Ronnie T (Feb 23, 2011)

gordon 2 said:


> Yes, for the world's insistance of making it simple...it is made complicated; which is why Atheits/Agnostic/Appologetic forums prosper in the simple beauties of their high IQ mathematical logic and otherwise good conservatives on political forums bait with artifical lures and think nothing of hiting below the belt.



Oh! I couldn't agree more.


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