# Spiritual vs physical verses?



## Artfuldodger (Mar 21, 2017)

1 Timothy 2:12
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Is the Timothy verse physical while the Galatians verse is spiritual?


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## Jeffriesw (Mar 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> 1 Timothy 2:12
> I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.
> 
> Galatians 3:28
> ...



If I understand your question direction, yes.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2017)

I'm wondering if while we are on the earth, there is still a difference between Jew & Gentile, male & female, slave & free as it relates to God but spiritually there is no difference.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm wondering if while we are on the earth, there is still a difference between Jew & Gentile, male & female, slave & free as it relates to God but spiritually there is no difference.


as Jew and Gentile . If the Gentile is Christian then He is a child of God. If the Jew is not a Christian he is no different than any other non believer....Just a person in need of Christ.

So while on Earth..we are all just people either in Christ or in need of Christ.


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## Vectorman (Mar 22, 2017)

I dont think that in this church or grace age that there is any difference between the groups mentioned. I also read 1 Tim 2:12 a little different than most in that I read this verse as a discussion about the wife and husband.

I do not permit "the wife" to teach or to assume authority over "the husband"; she must be quiet.

Same in vs 9 and 11


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> I dont think that in this church or grace age that there is any difference between the groups mentioned. I also read 1 Tim 2:12 a little different than most in that I read this verse as a discussion about the wife and husband.
> 
> I do not permit "the wife" to teach or to assume authority over "the husband"; she must be quiet.
> 
> Same in vs 9 and 11



Was Timothy written before the age? Back when there was difference?
Can a wife now teach to her husband? Is there no longer male or female in God's eyes?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2017)

I thought maybe we still have males and females, Jews and Gentiles, slaves and free in other respects within God's eyes.

Wouldn't it be reading out of context if I was to assume Galatians 3:28 meant 1 Tim 2:12 didn't apply? Even if it does mean a wife over a husband as in that individual couple.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 22, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> I dont think that in this church or grace age that there is any difference between the groups mentioned. I also read 1 Tim 2:12 a little different than most in that I read this verse as a discussion about the wife and husband.
> 
> I do not permit "the wife" to teach or to assume authority over "the husband"; she must be quiet.
> 
> Same in vs 9 and 11



Was there ever an age when there was a male & female,  Jew & Gentile? In what way were they different than before the cross? 

Galatians 3:23
But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

Galatians 3:25
And now that the way of faith has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian.

Galatians 3:28-29
There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed and heirs according to the promise.


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## Vectorman (Mar 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Can a wife now teach to her husband? Is there no longer male or female in God's eyes?



The husband should be the spiritual leader and teacher in his house, Unfortunately we have seen so many husbands/fathers check out when it comes to leading his family spiritually. I think this is the result of men having given their authority as spiritual leader of their home to a pastor or church elder. The husbands biblical understanding becomes very limited and the wife sensing the void  in spiritual leadership steps into that role.

Is it right? No. If the husband will take the role of spiritual leader and teacher in his house, most of the time the wife will submit to him.


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## Vectorman (Mar 22, 2017)

When Paul said "I do not permit", was this a descriptive term,  meaning this is what I do, or a prescriptive term,  meaning this is what you should do?


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## Vectorman (Mar 22, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> I dont think that in this church or grace age that there is any difference between the groups mentioned.
> 
> Same in vs 9 and 11



My point of this statement was not to say that there's no difference between male and female, or Jew/gentile, it was to say that they all have to gain salvation through faith in Christ


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## Vectorman (Mar 22, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was there ever an age when there was a male & female,  Jew & Gentile? In what way were they different than before the cross?



Before or after the cross, salvation has always been about faith(believing what God said). Paul said that the blood of bulls and goats never saved anyone. He also said that without faith it was impossible to please God. Abraham believed God and it was crdedited to him as right standing. 

The Jews have two issues to deal with, one is personal salvation which comes through faith. The second is the sins of the nation because of it's rejection of their messiah and king. I believe that this is what Israel the nation must repent of.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> The Jews have two issues to deal with, one is personal salvation which comes through faith. The second is the sins of the nation because of it's rejection of their messiah and king. I believe that this is what Israel the nation must repent of.



Israel as a nation ceased to exist until 1948. So are you saying their sins as a Nation were not accountable to them until they became a nation again in 1948?


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Israel as a nation ceased to exist until 1948. So are you saying their sins as a Nation were not accountable to them until they became a nation again in 1948?



NO, God treated them as a nation even when they were in exile in Babylon, they were a nation scattered around the world and now they are a nation gathered once again.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Israel as a nation ceased to exist until 1948.





Vectorman said:


> NO, God treated them as a nation even when they were in exile in Babylon, they were a nation scattered around the world and now they are a nation gathered once again.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Then do we still have male and female, Jew and Gentile? Was there a time when we did?

Could it be we have equality with differences?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> NO, God treated them as a nation even when they were in exile in Babylon, they were a nation scattered around the world and now they are a nation gathered once again.



ok. So they are still in covenant , just as they were while in exile? They dont need Jesus


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Was there ever a time that physical Israel was favored? Before physical Israel became spiritual Israel? Maybe when God elected Jacob over Esau? Was there ever a time of the Jew and Gentile, male and female?
Maybe back when Paul made a distinction and referred to the Gentile sharing with Israel in its promises. The grafting in and sharing of God with Israel.

I guess the distinction Paul addressed in not ever calling Gentiles "Israel", was to show Gentiles were heirs to the promises by adoption as sons. That not everyone born of Abraham were offspring but the individuals who had faith in God.

Romans 11 explains it best. So I'm assuming there was a distinction until 70AD.


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Was there ever a time that physical Israel was favored? Before physical Israel became spiritual Israel? Maybe when God elected Jacob over Esau? Was there ever a time of the Jew and Gentile, male and female?



Maybe this?

Ephesians 2:11-13

11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Galatians 3:23
Before the way of faith in Christ was available to us, we were placed under guard by the law. We were kept in protective custody, so to speak, until the way of faith was revealed.

Ephesians 2:12
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

Isaiah 14:1
When the LORD will have compassion on Jacob and again choose Israel, and settle them in their own land, then strangers will join them and attach themselves to the house of Jacob.

Romans 9:4
the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory and the covenants; theirs the giving of the Law, the temple worship, and the promises.

Romans 10:1
Dear brothers and sisters, the longing of my heart and my prayer to God is for the people of Israel to be saved.

Jeremiah 31:36
If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever."

Romans 11:25-26
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.

I still see this weird Jewish thing going on. I can't really put my finger on it. It looks as if Paul is showing unity with diversity. Like when we see Jesus as he is and become like him. Unity with diversity. We still have male and female. Unity with diversity.

We become un-natural branches attached to the Jewish root ball. This makes us sons of Abraham by adoption along with the natural branches.

At least Paul saw it that way until 70AD.


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> ok. So they are still in covenant , just as they were while in exile? They dont need Jesus



They need Jesus 

“Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” – Jeremiah 31:31-34


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> Maybe this?
> 
> Ephesians 2:11-13
> 
> 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (which is done in the body by human hands)— 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.



Thanks, I was beginning to think I was the only one wondering why Paul wrote Galatians 3:28. Unless there never was a time of a difference and Paul just enlightened them to something they always had. The secret was just revealed. It doesn't sound like that is what Paul is saying but it's possible.


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> Thanks, I was beginning to think I was the only one wondering why Paul wrote Galatians 3:28. Unless there never was a time of a difference and Paul just enlightened them to something they always had. The secret was just revealed. It doesn't sound like that is what Paul is saying but it's possible.



It's clear to me the differences between Jew and Gentile but I'm confused about your adding male and female to the question.


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

The secret you refer to being that God would make salvation available to the gentiles?

The unity with diversity being salvation being available to all but under different programs?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> My point of this statement was not to say that there's no difference between male and female, or Jew/gentile, it was to say that they all have to gain salvation through faith in Christ



I agree, take a man & wife. The two are one in unity
but not in uniformity. Take a Gentile and a Jew, the two are one in unity but not in uniformity. Take a slave and a free man, the two are one in unity in God's eyes  but not in uniformity.

Romans 11:11-12
I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous.
12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

Paul still saw and was teaching this "equal in terms of salvation but distinct in position and function."

Romans 11:14
in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Paul is still talking about "physical" Israel. The whole chapter of Romans 11 is about offering salvation to the Gentiles to make physical Israel jealous. The grafting in of the Gentile branches to the Jewish root.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Romans 11:18
But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.

Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Wait, is this physical Israel or spiritual Israel that experienced this hardening? If physical, why a distinction? Why did Paul make the distinction of making Israel jealous? Remember, there is neither male & female, Jew or Gentile. Why is Paul still trying to make some weird Jewish thing out of God's plan? Even insisting that God hardened Israel to allow salvation to Gentiles to make Israel jealous. A hardening that wasn't lifted until the full number of Gentiles came in. And in this way all Israel will be saved.

Wait, maybe it changed to spiritual Israel right in the middle of the chapter. Just like the 2nd coming explanation changed in the middle of the Gospel passages from a 70AD destruction to the future destruction.

Maybe someone can show me where in Romans 11 it made the switch.


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Israel as a nation ceased to exist until 1948. So are you saying their sins as a Nation were not accountable to them until they became a nation again in 1948?



The fact that Israel has once again reestablished itself is reason enough to believe that God's covenant is irrevocable  and still in effect. No other nation in history has been scattered around the world into almost every nation on earth yet remain a separate and distinct group of people. All other groups of people being done this way have been  assimilated into the nations that they resided in.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> The secret you refer to being that God would make salvation available to the gentiles?
> 
> The unity with diversity being salvation being available to all but under different programs?



Ephesians 2:12-13
remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

Do you read this that at one time there was a distinction between a Jew and Gentile? What was the distinction as being revealed by Paul?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> It's clear to me the differences between Jew and Gentile but I'm confused about your adding male and female to the question.



It's the same distinction made in Galatians 3:28;

There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. 

One would think that at some time in history there was a Jew & Greek and a male & female. That at some time in history there  was a distinction between the male and female that apparently vanished. If the distinction between the Jew and Greek vanished then so did the distinction between the male and female.

I'm trying to show that as far as salvation is concerned the distinction vanished but as far as the Jew and Gentile distinction it didn't. As far as the male and female distinction vanishing, it didn't. 
We still have males and females in God's eyes with diversity and unity. We still have Jews and Gentiles in God's eyes with diversity and unity. 

People are quick to dismiss a distinction of Jews and Gentiles yet they don't dismiss a difference between male and female using Galatians 3:28 as proof.
They are quick to dismiss the root of the tree. They are quick to think the un-natural branches to be superior to the natural branches. Hence the warning from Paul yet people still dismiss it.
They forget about the mystery of the hardening of Israel as mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:25. 
To many people, it's not a grafting in but a change. To others it's not even a change but has always been about the "elect." It's not Gentiles being grafted in but a belief that it never was about Israel. 
They've interpreted a way to completely remove physical Israel from God's plan. That it never was a Jewish connection through lineage and genealogy.

They use this verse;
Romans 9:8
In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.


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## Vectorman (Mar 23, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> without hope and without God in the world.
> 
> Do you read this that at one time there was a distinction between a Jew and Gentile? What was the distinction as being revealed by Paul?



I take it litterally that there was a time that no(with a few exceptions) gentiles were being saved. Not that God had walked away from them(gentiles) but they had walked away from God to the point that He chose to work through one nation (Israel) to bring salvation to the world.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 23, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> They need Jesus
> 
> “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.” – Jeremiah 31:31-34



Good..I thought you were one of those that think they are still Gods chosen.

The Covenant was made and the old was almost completely gone when tje author penned Hebrews. 
8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.

So now there is only one Covenant and its everlasting...and it is to, whosoever will.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Jeremiah 31:35-37
35Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for light by day And the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, Who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar; The LORD of hosts is His name: 36"If this fixed order departs From before Me," declares the LORD, "Then the offspring of Israel also will cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37Thus says the LORD, "If the heavens above can be measured And the foundations of the earth searched out below, Then I will also cast off all the offspring of Israel For all that they have done," declares the LORD.

Who is the "offspring of Israel" and a "nation before me"? It can't be a physical group as the fixed order of the stars and moon haven't vanished.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 23, 2017)

Why didn't Paul get the memo?

Romans 10:1
Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved.

Romans 11:1-2
I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin.2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel:

Romans 11:5-7
5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.7What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened,

Romans 11:11
Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

Romans 11:25-27
25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob. 27And this is My covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs.

Paul is still making a distinction. God never changes his mind about the people he calls and the things he gives them. Paul continues to make a distinction.

"regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs."
There is still a bit of mystery in election by grace that we don't fully understand. God chose Jacob over Esau.

While it is true that only a remnant was chosen and the rest hardened. This was until the full number of Gentiles came in to make Israel jealous. Then  the Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
He will take away their sin.

Perhaps he has already did that.


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## Vectorman (Mar 24, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Good..I thought you were one of those that think they are still Gods chosen.



I am. 

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. This is one of those topics that has no impact on one's salvation, but you read one thing in the scripture and I read something else. The important thing is we are both digging in the scripture. I believe that on that day when we pass from here to there we will immediately get understanding of all these things and I'm sure that there are many topics about which Jesus will smile at me and say " you had that part all wrong". 

I do think that when people think that the promises made to Israel of prosperity and endless blessing now apply to the church, this causes people to be disappointed and frustrated. Jesus said that in this world you will have trouble, but don't worry because I have overcome the world and if you will trust me you can have the peace that God wants you to have.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 24, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> I am.
> 
> We will have to agree to disagree on this one. This is one of those topics that has no impact on one's salvation, but you read one thing in the scripture and I read something else. The important thing is we are both digging in the scripture. I believe that on that day when we pass from here to there we will immediately get understanding of all these things and I'm sure that there are many topics about which Jesus will smile at me and say " you had that part all wrong".
> 
> I do think that when people think that the promises made to Israel of prosperity and endless blessing now apply to the church, this causes people to be disappointed and frustrated. Jesus said that in this world you will have trouble, but don't worry because I have overcome the world and if you will trust me you can have the peace that God wants you to have.





  Either they are in Christ or in need of Christ..agree?  

 If so then how does this differ from any other race in the world?


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## Vectorman (Mar 24, 2017)

Artfuldodger said:


> It's the same distinction made in Galatians 3:28;
> 
> There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus.
> 
> ...



I guess that have always interpreted the Jew/greek, male/female and slave/free comparisons in Gal. 3:28 to mean that Paul was simply telling the people in the Galation church that it didn't matter what their status in society was, they were all equal in the church. The context seems to be that the Jews had joined this group and after claiming to be in authority because of their heritage started forcing the gentile church members to follow the law. Paul was chewing them out for allowing this to happen. The same thing happens in churches today, people give those who have a higher status in society because of their wealth or success in business authority over managing the affairs of the church when the guy with the best understanding of what needs to be done is the guy who works as a cashier at the 7/11.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 24, 2017)

Galatians 3:28 makes it clear that the grafting was taking place..what little doubt 28 may leave 29 completes.
 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 The faithful of Judah and the northern tribes were brought together with the gentiles grafted in to make one single body of Christ...the only thing left was the harvesting of the tares..the apostate Jews...then the consummation of the ages and the giving of the inheritance to the church...the inheritance was kingdom.

And since Jesus is perfect, His atonement was perfect, His kingdom will reign forever.

Ephesians 3:20-21 20 Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, 21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 24, 2017)

No one, Jew or Gentile, can be saved apart from the name of Jesus Christ. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Regarding the gospel, they are enemies on your account; but regarding election, they are loved on account of the patriarchs. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. There is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if it is by grace, then it is no longer by works. Otherwise, grace would no longer be grace.

Is it possible considering how hardening and election by grace works, that God can have mercy on whom he will have mercy?


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## Vectorman (Mar 24, 2017)

hobbs27 said:


> Either they are in Christ or in need of Christ..agree?



Agreed!


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## hobbs27 (Mar 24, 2017)

Vectorman said:


> Agreed!



lol..So how are they different than any other race of people?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 24, 2017)

Acts 3: . 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.

’24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.

 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 

Every Jew that did not believe Jesus was utterly destroyed from among the Jews.

All prophets had prophecied concerning those days in which Peter was in.

The Jews that believed Jesus in those days became the body of Christ and all in the family of Christ are blessed.

Wheat and tares again....as the old covenant faithful Jews along with faithful gentiles recieved the inheritance ie Kingdom. And those it was taken from were utterly destroyed.


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