# Kinetic Energy vs. Speed



## deerbuster (Dec 6, 2013)

I have been talking some bow hunting buddies of mine about the two and they insist on speed being the key to bow hunting. While I think they are right in some aspects, you also need kinetic energy. I'm a KE kind of guy, I shoot 2012 Hoyt Vector Turbo at 70 pounds with a 31" draw. I shoot VForce Victory arrows that are right at 450 grain with my insert, broadhead, wraps, and all that. My question is what do you rather prefer, KE or speed? Speed kills, but may not get pass through near as much as a lot of KE would. Those are my thoughts, I'm still shooting over 295-300 fps. But I'd like to see what some of yall think about the whole KE vs. Speed.


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## keowens31 (Dec 6, 2013)

This is another one of those questions that you will have a thousand different opinions about. It comes down to personal preference to me. I have had luck with slow bows as well as fast bows, as for taking deer. Most of my kills are 20 yards or less on avearge. Either one had the capability to kill. Due to some shoulder wear and tear over the years i started shooting 60 lb bows more latley, not sure why i did not do that years ago. With my combintion, I'm still getting 285-290fps, which is plenty for my needs. I really dont think any of the speed vs. KE plays a large role in shots from 0-30 yards. Now 40 yards just may make the difference. Which ever you go with, shot placement is always the killer in the end. Never seen a dead deer from a 350fps or a 200fps miss or inproper shot placement.


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## finnhunter (Dec 6, 2013)

I rather get an arrow pass through than see the deer run away with an arrow sticking out of his/her side.  So yes, I am  a KE guy.  However, with today's bow speeds you will get plenty of KE even with lighter arrows and should get a pass through with most arrows.

Heavier arrows do have the added benefit of quieting the bow down and I expect them to fly more straight than a lighter one.


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## j53 (Dec 6, 2013)

yea the argument has been made heavier arrows will have better KE down range in other word lighter slows quicker so at 4O plus especially heavier maintains speed and KE etc.... Ive never put a chronograph out there and compared light vs heavy.. Im shootn about 78 ftlbs at 311 it'll shoot throughem at 60.. Thats good enough for me


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 6, 2013)

i think you have to have a balance of both. In the south we don't south nothing like what they do out west. So for us i would go with a heavy slow hard hitting arrow over a light fast one any day. Most of our shots a fairly close and a heavy arrow makes your bow quieter as well so it helps in more ways than one. With today's bows there is no reason to shoot a super light arrow. Its gonna stop quicker, and be hit harder by a crosswind. So i would say find something in the middle with good FOC that shots flat but also has what you need when it gets there. Also ke is just one part the other is momentum. Momentum is what really pushes an arrow through its target.


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## bluemarlin (Dec 6, 2013)

You have lots more speed than me and deer don't know what hits em when I fling one. I want KE for penetration power and strive to make my bow as quiet as possible. 
My SBXT is set at 66 pounds with a 29" draw. I'm shooting a 419 grain arrow at 266 feet per second... This equals 66 pounds kinetic energy and dead deer.


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## 1crazybowhunter (Dec 6, 2013)

bluemarlin said:


> You have lots more speed than me and deer don't know what hits em when I fling one. I want KE for penetration power and strive to make my bow as quiet as possible.
> My SBXT is set at 66 pounds with a 29" draw. I'm shooting a 419 grain arrow at 266 feet per second... This equals 66 pounds kinetic energy and dead deer.



My Bowtech Insanity, at a 29" draw and pulling 63lbs. is cooking the chrono at 347 fps and has 98 Ft.lbs of KE. Deer act like a bee stung em when that arrow blisters though them. It happens so fast, most times they don't seem alarmed. I even had one go right back to feeding as blood was pouring out both sides of him. He walked about 20 yards or so, started rocking back and forth and just ran out of gas! I think I've found perfect speed and KE. It ROCKS !!


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 7, 2013)

1crazybowhunter said:


> My Bowtech Insanity, at a 29" draw and pulling 63lbs. is cooking the chrono at 347 fps and has 98 Ft.lbs of KE. Deer act like a bee stung em when that arrow blisters though them. It happens so fast, most times they don't seem alarmed. I even had one go right back to feeding as blood was pouring out both sides of him. He walked about 20 yards or so, started rocking back and forth and just ran out of gas! I think I've found perfect speed and KE. It ROCKS !!



What grain arrow are you shooting?


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## Gadestroyer74 (Dec 7, 2013)

That is a pretty strong number.. You have to be shooting a super light arrow to achieve that kinda speed. The  ibo on that bow is 355 at 70 lbs 30 inch draw 350 grain arrow


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## Flaustin1 (Dec 7, 2013)

Ive shot through them with fast bows and slow bows.  165-310fps.  They ended up dead in most situations and ive only ever had one that didnt pass through.


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## oldenred (Dec 7, 2013)

1crazybowhunter said:


> My Bowtech Insanity, at a 29" draw and pulling 63lbs. is cooking the chrono at 347 fps and has 98 Ft.lbs of KE. Deer act like a bee stung em when that arrow blisters though them. It happens so fast, most times they don't seem alarmed. I even had one go right back to feeding as blood was pouring out both sides of him. He walked about 20 yards or so, started rocking back and forth and just ran out of gas! I think I've found perfect speed and KE. It ROCKS !!



Gonna have to call bull on that. Not even remotely possible unless you are shooting an arrow that weighs close to 500 grains and your bow is not capable of shooting that fast with that heavy of an arrow. It is more likely that you are shooting around 70-75lbs of KE with you're setup. Don't believe the numbers that Bowtech is telling you either. IBO speeds use light arrows and they just don't produce that kind of high KE without the weight.  To put it into perspective, my Matrix shoots an arrow around 500 grains and 350ft a second with a 260lb draw weight and I am shooting right around 115lbs of KE. Technology is getting better but even so there are only a few compound bows out there that produce anywhere near the 100lbs of KE mark and all of those bows are 80lb+ draw. You have a nice bow none the less and only about 45-50lbs of KE is really needed for deer anyways. 


More is better in my opinion though. I am willing to take shots on deer that more would never think of with a bow. Shot a couple this year and just devastated them. One of them was a strait on shot while he was looking at me, went down from his neck on his right side, totally detached his right leg came down through his chest and found him with a piece of his heart sticking out of his chest and the arrow buried 15 inches into the ground!

When it comes to hunting though speed and KE are both important IMO. As for speed it is nice to have because if the deer jumps the string it can be the difference between a great shot, a very bad shot or a miss all together. I would not want to shoot less than 300ft or have less than 60lbs of KE. With that being said I am willing to sacrifice some speed for some KE. Just keep in mind though that the faster your bow shoots the faster you lose KE. Try and find a happy middle.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 7, 2013)

since KE is a measure of Velocity squared - you technically cant have one without the other. you can compensate for lower velocities with heavier weights but frankly - its still just a fictional measurement. 

FYI - I did my thesis on KE and Momentum and how they were mans way of finding an answer to something he could not explain. 
They in no way have any real application other than for comparison purposes only.

typically - the deer doesnt care how far your arrow sticks in the ground after it passes through it.

speed makes distance estimation easier and less critical but practice and sight pin placement are more important at slower speeds.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 7, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Gonna have to call bull on that. Not even remotely possible unless you are shooting an arrow that weighs close to 500 grains and your bow is not capable of shooting that fast with that heavy of an arrow. It is more likely that you are shooting around 70-75lbs of KE with you're setup. Don't believe the numbers that Bowtech is telling you either. IBO speeds use light arrows and they just don't produce that kind of high KE without the weight.  To put it into perspective, my Matrix shoots an arrow around 500 grains and 350ft a second with a 260lb draw weight and I am shooting right around 115lbs of KE. Technology is getting better but even so there are only a few compound bows out there that produce anywhere near the 100lbs of KE mark and all of those bows are 80lb+ draw. You have a nice bow none the less and only about 45-50lbs of KE is really needed for deer anyways.
> 
> 
> More is better in my opinion though. I am willing to take shots on deer that more would never think of with a bow. Shot a couple this year and just devastated them. One of them was a strait on shot while he was looking at me, went down from his neck on his right side, totally detached his right leg came down through his chest and found him with a piece of his heart sticking out of his chest and the arrow buried 15 inches into the ground!
> ...


You must have been sick that day and missed physics class.

The momentum of an object is proportional to the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you double its momentum. The kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you quadruple its kinetic energy.


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## Kris87 (Dec 7, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Gonna have to call bull on that.



You better run for cover from  .

No matter the arrow weight, at those specs you need a bow capable of 375+ fps to generate anything close to those numbers.  Physics doesn't lie.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 7, 2013)

Thank God us Trad Bow shooters don't have to worry about all of this crap to kill a deer. Arrow sticks in, deer runs, arrow does the slice n dice on every organ in it's vicinity until said deer drops. Works every time.


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## hansel (Dec 7, 2013)

I'm not a speed freak when it comes too a bow, plus because of a shoulder/arm issue's so 70lb bows are out for me. I have a Hoyt CE set a 60lbs shooting Victory arrows, in the past the 4 doe's I've shot have been complete pass through's, but the buck I shot a few weeks back because of the almost straight down shot at 5yds I did not get a pass through, but did get almost half the arrow too penetrate, and he did not even make it out of sight. With today's modern archery equipment a well place shot will put meat in the freezer.

But too answer the question, I will take slow and heavy verse's fast.


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## skippygus73 (Dec 7, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> [/COLOR]You must have been sick that day and missed physics class.
> 
> The momentum of an object is proportional to the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you double its momentum. The kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you quadruple its kinetic energy.



But at the end of the day isn't a bow's K/E going to be pretty much static +/- a few pounds.  

All I am looking for is to be able to punch thru both shoulders if I happen to miss a little bit.  The set up I have right now gives me that.  The numbers I am coming up with have me right at 80 lbs of K/E.  I don't believe that there isn't to much in this country that I won't get a pass thru on.  I have seen with my sons bow what less than 40 K/E will do with a hit to the shoulder and it isn't good and she isn't sausage.


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 7, 2013)

for those number thats 370 ibo with 315 grain arrow. you have the fastest insanity in the world and even at that your only pushing 84 lbs of ke, but only .4 momentum which is low due to the light arrow.


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 7, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Gonna have to call bull on that. Not even remotely possible unless you are shooting an arrow that weighs close to 500 grains and your bow is not capable of shooting that fast with that heavy of an arrow. It is more likely that you are shooting around 70-75lbs of KE with you're setup. Don't believe the numbers that Bowtech is telling you either. IBO speeds use light arrows and they just don't produce that kind of high KE without the weight.  To put it into perspective, my Matrix shoots an arrow around 500 grains and 350ft a second with a 260lb draw weight and I am shooting right around 115lbs of KE. Technology is getting better but even so there are only a few compound bows out there that produce anywhere near the 100lbs of KE mark and all of those bows are 80lb+ draw. You have a nice bow none the less and only about 45-50lbs of KE is really needed for deer anyways.
> 
> 
> More is better in my opinion though. I am willing to take shots on deer that more would never think of with a bow. Shot a couple this year and just devastated them. One of them was a strait on shot while he was looking at me, went down from his neck on his right side, totally detached his right leg came down through his chest and found him with a piece of his heart sticking out of his chest and the arrow buried 15 inches into the ground!
> ...



I agree that those number are really high, but you don't have to shoot 85lb to get 100ke. My nightmare is 30" 70lbs at 313fps with 97ft-lbs of ke and a momentum of .622.


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## cellefsen1 (Dec 7, 2013)

Ackool1234 said:


> I agree that those number are really high, but you don't have to shoot 85lb to get 100ke. My nightmare is 30" 70lbs at 313fps with 97ft-lbs of ke and a momentum of .622.



Makes you wonder how any deer were killed 10 years ago with the old bows.


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## bluemarlin (Dec 7, 2013)

momentum generates pass through


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 7, 2013)

cellefsen1 said:


> Makes you wonder how any deer were killed 10 years ago with the old bows.



lol yea it does, but the tech that are in bows today have helped a ton. Also you have to admit being able to get an exit hole 95% of time does indeed help with recovering animals. With all that said no you do not have to have 100ft-lbs of ke to kill a deer. You can kill one with half that. It all boils down to making a good shot, but as we all know that doesn't always happen.


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## gsp754 (Dec 7, 2013)

1crazybowhunter said:


> My Bowtech Insanity, at a 29" draw and pulling 63lbs. is cooking the chrono at 347 fps and has 98 Ft.lbs of KE. Deer act like a bee stung em when that arrow blisters though them. It happens so fast, most times they don't seem alarmed. I even had one go right back to feeding as blood was pouring out both sides of him. He walked about 20 yards or so, started rocking back and forth and just ran out of gas! I think I've found perfect speed and KE. It ROCKS !!



My Bowtech Insanity & my Destroyer 350 are 29" draw @ 70# they shoot the same speed. I shoot a 400 grain arrow 321fps and have 91.54 ft-lb KE. 
For your bow to do what you said your shooting real close to a 367 grain arrow. Was it a typo, if not how are you getting those numbers?


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## cellefsen1 (Dec 7, 2013)

gsp754 said:


> My Bowtech Insanity & my Destroyer 350 are 29" draw @ 70# they shoot the same speed. I shoot a 400 grain arrow 321fps and have 91.54 ft-lb KE.
> For your bow to do what you said your shooting real close to a 367 grain arrow. Was it a typo, if not how are you getting those numbers?



No two chronograph are the same.some as much as 10fps difference


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## gsp754 (Dec 7, 2013)

cellefsen1 said:


> No two chronograph are the same.some as much as 10fps difference



What does that have to do with the numbers I was asking about? Unless your saying his chronograph is WAY off!


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## bluemarlin (Dec 7, 2013)

Standing by for 1crazybowhunter to chime in but from what I remember he shoots 85 grain heads and lite sticks. 
I know I'm the turtle among you guys but I play the If it ain't broke game and according to the pic I posted, I have enough KE to kill a cape buffalo.


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## Gadestroyer74 (Dec 7, 2013)

gsp754 said:


> My Bowtech Insanity & my Destroyer 350 are 29" draw @ 70# they shoot the same speed. I shoot a 400 grain arrow 321fps and have 91.54 ft-lb KE.
> For your bow to do what you said your shooting real close to a 367 grain arrow. Was it a typo, if not how are you getting those numbers?


Tell me how a Ibo rated bow shoots faster than it is advertised with once inch less draw length and at 63lbs Even with a 367 grain it can't do that. I call foul ball on that mess if that bow shot that fast bowtech would have advertised that


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## gsp754 (Dec 7, 2013)

bluemarlin said:


> Standing by for 1crazybowhunter to chime in but from what I remember he shoots 85 grain heads and lite sticks.
> I know I'm the turtle among you guys but I play the If it ain't broke game and according to the pic I posted, I have enough KE to kill a cape buffalo.



The speed is not what I question, the speed alone is possible. It's 347fps with the 98 ft-lb of KE that I think may have been a typo.  A lite arrow is going to be fast, but it also doesn't have much KE.... Especially not 98 ft-lb of KE


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## gsp754 (Dec 7, 2013)

Gadestroyer74 said:


> Tell me how a Ibo rated bow shoots faster than it is advertised with once inch less draw length. Even with a 367 grain it can't do that. I call foul ball on that mess if that bow shot that fast bowtech would have advertised that



What are you talking about, my bows speed or the speed 1crazybowhunter listed?


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## Kris87 (Dec 7, 2013)

I plugged in multiple arrow weights at the specs that were listed and backed into the calculations.  The only way to achieve that 98 ft/lbs would need a bow capable of 375fps IBO.  its not possible at 63# 29" draw length with any weight arrow.


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## Gadestroyer74 (Dec 7, 2013)

gsp754 said:


> What are you talking about, my bows speed or the speed onecrazybowhunter listed? Do you think the IBO speed of a bow is as fast as it will shoot any arrow?



347 @ 63lbs at 29 inch draw is not possible


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## Gadestroyer74 (Dec 7, 2013)

Even if he pulled 73 lbs he still couldn't go it unless he was way under grained. You have stuff on the string etc


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## gsp754 (Dec 7, 2013)

Gadestroyer74 said:


> 347 @ 63lbs at 29 inch draw is not possible



Where did I say it was possible? Did you just read bits and pieces of my post? I said for him to be getting that speed and that much kinetic energy he would be shooting a 367 grain arrow, then I asked him how is he getting his bow to do that or if it was a typo.


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## Gadestroyer74 (Dec 7, 2013)

Read what I wrote dude I didn't say one word about you saying that did I


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## gsp754 (Dec 7, 2013)

Gadestroyer74 said:


> Read what I wrote dude I didn't say one word about you saying that did I



I have no clue why you quoted my post or what you are trying to say then.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 7, 2013)

skippygus73 said:


> But at the end of the day isn't a bow's K/E going to be pretty much static +/- a few pounds.
> 
> All I am looking for is to be able to punch thru both shoulders if I happen to miss a little bit.  The set up I have right now gives me that.  The numbers I am coming up with have me right at 80 lbs of K/E.  I don't believe that there isn't to much in this country that I won't get a pass thru on.  I have seen with my sons bow what less than 40 K/E will do with a hit to the shoulder and it isn't good and she isn't sausage.


You answered your own question. It is all about shot placement. A misplaced shot through a shoulder will likely not produce a pass through regardless of KE.


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## 1crazybowhunter (Dec 7, 2013)

Ackool1234 said:


> What grain arrow are you shooting?



That's Classified. Don't worry though, no where near a dry fire and just a little less than what IBO recommends. This bow is sweet to pull at not much poundage, you can hold back the 80% let off for days and it SCREAMS. It's the sum total of a huge amount of effort, thought, the right parts and equipment. Every single thing matters, everything. You've just got to experiment, experiment and do some more experimenting, try this, don't do that, rack your brain in an effort to come up with a combination that really, really works. It tunes perfectly, shoots quiet and is as dead as a door nail in your hand. I've never seen a bow like it before and I couldn't ask for anything more!


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## 1crazybowhunter (Dec 7, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Gonna have to call bull on that. Not even remotely possible unless you are shooting an arrow that weighs close to 500 grains and your bow is not capable of shooting that fast with that heavy of an arrow. It is more likely that you are shooting around 70-75lbs of KE with you're setup. Don't believe the numbers that Bowtech is telling you either. IBO speeds use light arrows and they just don't produce that kind of high KE without the weight.  To put it into perspective, my Matrix shoots an arrow around 500 grains and 350ft a second with a 260lb draw weight and I am shooting right around 115lbs of KE. Technology is getting better but even so there are only a few compound bows out there that produce anywhere near the 100lbs of KE mark and all of those bows are 80lb+ draw. You have a nice bow none the less and only about 45-50lbs of KE is really needed for deer anyways.
> 
> 
> More is better in my opinion though. I am willing to take shots on deer that more would never think of with a bow. Shot a couple this year and just devastated them. One of them was a strait on shot while he was looking at me, went down from his neck on his right side, totally detached his right leg came down through his chest and found him with a piece of his heart sticking out of his chest and the arrow buried 15 inches into the ground!
> ...



I understand you don't necessarily believe all that Bowtech says as far as their specs go but they do advertise the Insantity to have an IBO rating velocity at 355 with 98 ft. lbs of kinetic energy. Go to the website and see it for yourself. As for my set up......it's doing as stated, No BULL. The arrow is a touch lighter than what IBO recommends. I know it's hard to get your head around but what can I says except....IT JUST SCREAMS!


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## 1crazybowhunter (Dec 8, 2013)

bluemarlin said:


> Standing by for 1crazybowhunter to chime in but from what I remember he shoots 85 grain heads and lite sticks.
> I know I'm the turtle among you guys but I play the If it ain't broke game and according to the pic I posted, I have enough KE to kill a cape buffalo.



OK, I'll chime in. GET READY. This is getting interesting and almost to the point of being rediculous. I've tested my set up with 2 different Pro Chrono Digital chronographs, they both read the same speed. I've always had a short draw length and wanted a bow that was a true performer so I could get speed and not have to shoot high poundage to get it. The Insanity is that bow. With the Ibo speed of 355 I knew I could back way off max poundage, have the benefit of pulling light poundage and using all the speed tricks I've learned over the past 40 plus years that I've been in this game, I could come up with an ultra light poundage speed bow that was still quiet, dead in the hand, super accurate  and just hauled an arrow faster than a greyhound with turpentine on his butt!! (TALK ABOUT A COMPOUND SENTENCE) It took a ton of thought, experimentation, trial and error, the right parts and tuning ability to get the dragster that I have. I wish I could prove what I'm saying to all the ney sayers but the only one I really need to prove ANYTHING TO is GOD and MYSELF. I didn't go to College and don't know all that maybe I should about force draw curves, or how to arrive at the proper Kinetic energy factor as it relates to the poundage of a bow. I'd really love to know this and as I always say, in the 58 years I've lived, the truest lesson I've ever learned is that you're never too old to learn something new. So I think I will. It'll make me feel a little better knowing how to figure it. One more thing you HAVE to enter into this can't be possible to shoot 347 @ 63lbs scenario is the fact that the Insanity has Binary cams on it. If I'm right, the binary cams act as a cantilever throughout the draw and shot cycle to add a lot more thrust to the arrow. It's as if the limbs have PRELOAD added to them during the launch of the arrow. I'm not the Physics dude and don't know this for sure but I believe that this is part of the reason why this bow performs the way it does. It's not an even comparison to compare any other bow on the market to it if the bow doesn't  also have binary cams. Your standard Hoyt, PSE or even Obsession bows that are all top performers don't compare because of they don't have the same type properties of the binary cam system. It is not just possible that my Insantiy can shoot as stated....IT DOES! If some of you are getting your figures from one of the so called Archery Calculators....HERE'S YOUR SIGN! Don't believe all THEY say. Get the Physics dude to go through some of their scenarios and see if he agrees with them. I think you, just like I, would find them suspect.
   The numbers I put out there were from the BOWTECH WEBSITE. GO SEE IT FOR YOURSELF. The Insanity at 70lbs. 30" draw with a 350gr. arrow has an Ibo speed of 355 fps. and has an ADVERTISED 98 foot pounds of kinetic energy...PERIOD. That's all I've said. My set up would be way faster than the advertised Ibo at 70lbs. as it's shooting 347 at 63lbs. I don't know what the KE conversion would be and that's the only unknown factor. The correct arrow weight for my 63lb. bow is 315 grains measured at 5 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight. I'm a little lighter than that...barely. I hope this helps clear up a thing or two. One last thing; I am my own worst enemy, my own worst critic, I'm a perfectionist to the point that it would make Einstein start running in circles on the floor sorta like Curly in the Three Stooges after Moe let him smell some Linburger Cheese hollering WUWUWUWUWU! I'm never satisfied even with perfection or as close to it as I can get it. I over think crap, wake up at 3am with an idea of how I can tweak something and make it faster, flatter shooting and smoother to pull and I can't go back to sleep until I get my tail up and go work on it......AND FIX IT TO WORK JUST LIKE I DREAMED IT WOULD. Guess I'm just weird like that or whatever you want to call it but one thing's for sure...MY METHODS WORK!


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## bluemarlin (Dec 8, 2013)

I got $20 on 1crazybowhunter.... come backy


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## reylamb (Dec 8, 2013)

1crazybowhunter said:


> OK, I'll chime in. GET READY. This is getting interesting and almost to the point of being rediculous. I've tested my set up with 2 different Pro Chrono Digital chronographs, they both read the same speed. I've always had a short draw length and wanted a bow that was a true performer so I could get speed and not have to shoot high poundage to get it. The Insanity is that bow. With the Ibo speed of 355 I knew I could back way off max poundage, have the benefit of pulling light poundage and using all the speed tricks I've learned over the past 40 plus years that I've been in this game, I could come up with an ultra light poundage speed bow that was still quiet, dead in the hand, super accurate  and just hauled an arrow faster than a greyhound with turpentine on his butt!! (TALK ABOUT A COMPOUND SENTENCE) It took a ton of thought, experimentation, trial and error, the right parts and tuning ability to get the dragster that I have. I wish I could prove what I'm saying to all the ney sayers but the only one I really need to prove ANYTHING TO is GOD and MYSELF. I didn't go to College and don't know all that maybe I should about force draw curves, or how to arrive at the proper Kinetic energy factor as it relates to the poundage of a bow. I'd really love to know this and as I always say, in the 58 years I've lived, the truest lesson I've ever learned is that you're never too old to learn something new. So I think I will. It'll make me feel a little better knowing how to figure it. If some of you are getting your figures from one of the so called Archery Calculators....HERE'S YOUR SIGN! Don't believe all THEY say. Get the Physics dude to go through some of their scenarios and see if he agrees with them. I think you, just like I, would find them suspect.
> The numbers I put out there were from the BOWTECH WEBSITE. GO SEE IT FOR YOURSELF. The Insanity at 70lbs. 30" draw with a 350gr. arrow has an Ibo speed of 355 fps. and has an ADVERTISED 98 foot pounds of kinetic energy...PERIOD. That's all I've said. My set up would be way faster than the advertised Ibo at 70lbs. as it's shooting 347 at 63lbs. I don't know what the KE conversion would be and that's the only unknown factor. The correct arrow weight for my 63lb. bow is 315 grains measured at 5 grains of arrow weight per pound of draw weight. I'm a little lighter than that...barely. I hope this helps clear up a thing or two. One last thing; I am my own worst enemy, my own worst critic, I'm a perfectionist to the point that it would make Einstein start running in circles on the floor sorta like Curly in the Three Stooges after Moe let him smell some Linburger Cheese hollering WUWUWUWUWU! I'm never satisfied even with perfection or as close to it as I can get it. I over think crap, wake up at 3am with an idea of how I can tweak something and make it faster, flatter shooting and smoother to pull and I can't go back to sleep until I get my tail up and go work on it......AND FIX IT TO WORK JUST LIKE I DREAMED IT WOULD. Guess I'm just weird like that or whatever you want to call it but one thing's for sure...MY METHODS WORK!



Just for the record......

For an arrow to be leaving the bow at 347 fps, and still generate 98 fp of KE, the arrow would have to weigh right at 370 grains.

That would have a reversed IBO rating of.....right around 391 fps (with the IBO rating "standard" of 70#s, 30", and a 350 grain arrow)...... give or take a little bit.

All of which means.....your bow is the fastest on the planet.

Of course, if you are shooting an arrow slightly under 315 grains, and we will use 315 just for kicks and grins....at 347 fps you are actually getting 84 ft#s of KE.....which would have a reversed IBO of about......355 fps.......which would be about correct, not way above IBO.

Simply put, you are not getting 98 ft#s of KE, using the numbers you have provided of course.

As a physics guy, it is fairly simple.....

So to get your actual kinetic energy.....

arrow weight in grains * fps * fps / 450240 (this number will automatically convert from grains to pounds to give you ft/#s of KE).

In your case, using 315 grain arrow since you don't know the exact grains:

315*347*347/450240=84.24 ft/#s of KE


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## reylamb (Dec 8, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> [/COLOR]You must have been sick that day and missed physics class.
> 
> The momentum of an object is proportional to the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you double its momentum. The kinetic energy of an object is proportional to the square of the object's velocity - if you double its velocity, you quadruple its kinetic energy.


His statement is truth.

In order to gain speed out of a bow you have to change something in the equation, usually the arrow weight.  When you drop the arrow weight to gain speed the KE will go down......everytime, always and forever (at least until the point of realistic arrow weights).  you could build an arrow that, intheory, would prevent the string from moving forward because the weight of the arrow is greater than the holding weight of the bow, but that is just to the point of the absurd.  This has been tested numerous times by numerous folks with arrow weights out to 2500 grains, and it holds true, the heavier the arrow gets the more KE it has.

Unless something else on the bow is changed, take out the peep, increase the poundage, longer DL, etc, etc, etc, you will always lose KE when the speed goes up because the arrow weight goes down.  And since weight is in the KE equation, that must be factored in.  There is a greater percentage of change to the weight of an arrow vs the speed gain when dropping arrow weight.  Along with some other things going on there.....well, drop the arrow weight and you will drop KE.


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## 1crazybowhunter (Dec 8, 2013)

reylamb said:


> Just for the record......
> 
> For an arrow to be leaving the bow at 347 fps, and still generate 98 fp of KE, the arrow would have to weigh right at 370 grains.
> 
> ...



Great response, i'll give you a 9.5 on that one! One thing I think you missed me saying though was that I DID misspeak the part about the 98 lbs. of KE. I did misspeak that. It isn't true. Can't be. What I said in my last long yawner was that the ADVERTISED KE OF THE INSANITY AT 70LBS, NOT 63 WAS 98 LBS OF KE. GOT IT?


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## 1crazybowhunter (Dec 8, 2013)

reylamb said:


> Just for the record......
> 
> For an arrow to be leaving the bow at 347 fps, and still generate 98 fp of KE, the arrow would have to weigh right at 370 grains.
> 
> ...



I am truly impressed. You have educated me today and for that I thank you. Please read my last comment as it will straighten out the problem here. Having said that, I can't tell you what a thrill it is for me to KNOW that even at a mere 63 lbs. my Insanity is STILL knocking the tar out of deer at 84 plus Ft. lbs of Kinetic Energy. Guess this just trashes the notion that an ultra light set up AND arrow can't do the same job as a 500 grain arrow shot out of a bow that has to be shot at 70 plus pounds. 7 pounds might not seem like much but if you want to see the difference, get yourself a digital scale, set yours at both those poundages and see which one you'd rather pull.....IF you could get the stated speed. Even though in reality the bow is not generating the mistaken KE of 98 ft. lbs. but is in fact doing only 84, I'll take it any day! I really appreciate your insight, it was very helpful...COOP


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 8, 2013)

reylamb said:


> His statement is truth.
> 
> In order to gain speed out of a bow you have to change something in the equation, usually the arrow weight.  *When you drop the arrow weight to gain speed the KE will go down......everytime, always and forever *(at least until the point of realistic arrow weights).  you could build an arrow that, intheory, would prevent the string from moving forward because the weight of the arrow is greater than the holding weight of the bow, but that is just to the point of the absurd.  This has been tested numerous times by numerous folks with arrow weights out to 2500 grains, and it holds true, the heavier the arrow gets the more KE it has.
> 
> Unless something else on the bow is changed, take out the peep, increase the poundage, longer DL, etc, etc, etc, you will always lose KE when the speed goes up because the arrow weight goes down.  And since weight is in the KE equation, that must be factored in.  There is a greater percentage of change to the weight of an arrow vs the speed gain when dropping arrow weight.  Along with some other things going on there.....well, drop the arrow weight and you will drop KE.


apparently the whole school was experiencing an epidemic that day and all of you missed your physics class.

For example - 

http://archerycalculator.com/archery-kinetic-energy-and-momentum-calculator/

500 gr. Arrow @ 225 FPS =  .4991 M / 56.15 KE

450 gr. Arrow @ 250 FPS =  .4991 M / 62.389 KE

400 gr. Arrow @ 275 FPS =  .4880 M / 67.102 KE

350 gr. Arrow @ 300 FPS =  .4658 M / 69.875 KE

Velocity is squared in the KE formula. Therefore, as speed increases - so does KE.

I look forward to your rebuttal.


----------



## WGSNewnan (Dec 8, 2013)

BTW - the proper answer to your statement is :

The heavier the arrow gets the more MOMENTUM it  has.
I believe you are confusing the two.


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## dtala (Dec 8, 2013)

neither speed or KE kills, penetration kills...and penetration is driven by momentum.


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## deerbuster (Dec 8, 2013)

Alright guys, this thread wasn't meant to be a peeing match between guys on how fast your bow is and how much KE you can have. Just a simple thread on seeing who all believed in what when it came to speed and KE.


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## reylamb (Dec 8, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> apparently the whole school was experiencing an epidemic that day and all of you missed your physics class.
> 
> For example -
> 
> ...


Class was in session just fine, you are simply wrong.

Archery calculators assume 1 basic premise, that there is a linear change in the speed/weight ration as the arrow weight changes, but it is not linear.

Velocity is squared, so what.  You have more losses on the weight side than you gain on the speed side with arrows.  

My statement is correct, and you are simply wrong.  As the arrow weight increases the KE and MO both go up.  MO can't go up if KE goes down, it simply can't happen.

Back to basic physics.  A bow stores a given amount of energy at full draw.  Upon release there is a certain amount of energy transferred into the arrow.  There are of course loses in the system, moving of the string, weight of the string, moving of the limbs, cams, etc, etc, etc, so we can never reach a 100% efficient system.  

Knowing that, a basic physics question.....you have 2 items weighing different amounts.  You apply the same amount of force to both objects for the same amount of time.  Which one absorbs more of the energy transfer?

Question 2....ever wonder why a bow is quieter when it shoots heavier arrows?

.....go read the links below, and do not ever again use an archery calculator to prove a point, they are flawed......The archery software programs TAP and OT2 do the best job of estimating changes in KE and speed with arrow weight, because they calculate the bow performance factor, a measurement of the efficiency of the individual bows in their databases.  The online calculators, and I don't care which you use whether is the one you sited or back country or any other all assume a linear relationship between weight changes and speed changes........which is the basic flaw and their down fall.  They are good for estimating, and they may or may not give a close estimate, but accurate they are not.

http://archeryreport.com/2012/01/kinetic-energy-momentum-arrows-simplified-approach/

http://archeryreport.com/2011/01/heavy-vs-light-arrows-speed-power/

Or you can go search archery talk for KE and read any of the 1000's of threads on the topic.  And then you can find the documented results (actually weighed arrows, properly tuned, and actually shot through a chronograph and not guestimated by some online calculator), which have never been proven wrong.  When shot out of a given bow a heavier arrow will always produce less speed, more KE, and less noise from the bow than lighter arrows (provided the heavier arrow is the correct spine and correctly tuned of course)......always and forever.

You can choose to be blissful, that is your choice, it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong.

I have done the testing with dozens of bows, from weights from 350 grains to 2000 grains, and I have never tested a single bow that changed these very simple, very basic physics principals.


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## reylamb (Dec 8, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> BTW - the proper answer to your statement is :
> 
> The heavier the arrow gets the more MOMENTUM it  has.
> I believe you are confusing the two.



MO can't go up without KE going up.

There is no confusion on my part.


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## reylamb (Dec 8, 2013)

deerbuster said:


> Alright guys, this thread wasn't meant to be a peeing match between guys on how fast your bow is and how much KE you can have. Just a simple thread on seeing who all believed in what when it came to speed and KE.



No peeing contest, when someone is giving out bad information it needs to be corrected.  If it goes uncorrected folks will incorrectly think they can go to lighter arrow weights and gain KE, which they won't.  And then they will scratch their heads when they don't consistently get pass throughs with their lighter arrows like they did with their heavier arrows.


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## gsp754 (Dec 8, 2013)

reylamb said:


> Class was in session just fine, you are simply wrong.
> 
> Archery calculators assume 1 basic premise, that there is a linear change in the speed/weight ration as the arrow weight changes, but it is not linear.
> 
> ...





Are you saying all of the numbers that 1crazybowhunter listed from the archery calculator are wrong? 
How are the archery calculators inaccurate when you enter your arrow weight and the speed your arrow is traveling?


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## Kris87 (Dec 8, 2013)

I don't trust the calculators other than getting an estimate on fps with a given setup.  I do know that MOST bows are more efficient with heavier arrows.  When you compare different specs with different weight arrows in regards to a stated ATA or IBO speed, a heavier arrow will almost always give better results.  

As long as I've shot, I've never been hung up on speed.  Never.  Once you figure out how much quieter your bow is, how much easier it is to tune one at a reasonable speed, how much better game penetration you have, you won't even want the speed.  I don't.


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## Ihunt (Dec 8, 2013)

Go shoot a block type target with an arrow that's 5 gpi. Then go shoot the same target with an arrow that's 8 gpi. Watch how the target moves with the heavier arrow. Now imagine how much easier an arrow would go through the deer with the heavier arrow. Will the lighter arrow kill the deer? Yes. Will the heavier arrow give you a pass through every time? No. But the heavier arrow will penetrate better every time. So my answer to your question forget the speed.


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## jjh105 (Dec 8, 2013)

deerbuster said:


> My question is what do you rather prefer, KE or speed?



To answer the actual question that started this post. I prefer KE. Actually, I prefer momentum (heavy arrow with extreme FOC). 

Case in point is a doe that I shot this year. Ranged her at 50yds (I'm confident shooting out to 60) and lightly quartering towards me with very little wind. As I released she started to walk forward. Needless to say the shot was far back. She ran off with her butt dragging the ground. My heavy arrow had so much momentum it actually separated the hip joint on the back side (found when I was cutting her up and retrieving my broad head). The impact spun her around almost a complete 180 deg. With a separated hip and thanks to a larger cutting diameter that nicked the femoral artery that made a good short blood trail.  

Also, to throw my .02 in all the technical stuff as related to archery. Speed is just a calculation of movement. Specifically as the arrow is leaving the bow. Arrow speed is reduced the further down range it travels. KE is a calculation of applied force at specific point of impact. Again as the arrow is leaving the bow. It will be reduced as it heads down range. Momentum is a calculation of the arrows ability to continue moving in its given direction when it impacts the target. This will also be reduced as the arrow goes down range, but a heavier arrow will carry more momentum further down range.


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## bowkill7 (Dec 8, 2013)

deerbuster said:


> I have been talking some bow hunting buddies of mine about the two and they insist on speed being the key to bow hunting. While I think they are right in some aspects, you also need kinetic energy. I'm a KE kind of guy, I shoot 2012 Hoyt Vector Turbo at 70 pounds with a 31" draw. I shoot VForce Victory arrows that are right at 450 grain with my insert, broadhead, wraps, and all that. My question is what do you rather prefer, KE or speed? Speed kills, but may not get pass through near as much as a lot of KE would. Those are my thoughts, I'm still shooting over 295-300 fps. But I'd like to see what some of yall think about the whole KE vs. Speed.


One of my favorite examples to use when I am conducting seminars on bowhunting and the subject of speed vs weight comes up is,....  Ok lets say im standing on the roof of a house and you are 10 feet below me, I have a red brick in one hand and a cement block in the other, which one had you rather me drop on your head? Ive always been an advocate of weight and not speed.  The only argument for faster is it can reduce human error in judging target distance. But if you learn your individual equipment at different ranges this should not be an issue.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 8, 2013)

Newtons laws must be wrong also because those figures are based on basic laws of physics. You can try to explain it away all you want but the figures don't lie. 
Your statement was incorrect. It is still incorrect and you can argue all you want but until you state numbers that dispute mine you are wrong.

Your turn. State your figures and provide examples instead of proclamations. You have formed your hypothesis. Now provide your proof of support.

Of course you could just keep talking nonsense.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 8, 2013)

reylamb said:


> MO can't go up without KE going up.
> 
> There is no confusion on my part.



My figures already disprove this. If you were to go from the 350gr arrow to the 500 gr arrow you would see a net increase in momentum and a decrease in ke.

Prove me wrong!


----------



## gsp754 (Dec 8, 2013)

bowkill7 said:


> One of my favorite examples to use when I am conducting seminars on bowhunting and the subject of speed vs weight comes up is,....  Ok lets say im standing on the roof of a house and you are 10 feet below me, I have a red brick in one hand and a cement block in the other, which one had you rather me drop on your head? Ive always been an advocate of weight and not speed.  The only argument for faster is it can reduce human error in judging target distance. But if you learn your individual equipment at different ranges this should not be an issue.




I don't like that analogy, because they will both be traveling at the same speed. I like this one, How about driving a car down the road and I throw a baseball at your windshield as hard as I can or I throw a bowling ball at your windshield as hard as I can. The baseball will be going much faster but will probably just bounce off, the bowling ball will be going much slower but it's going through that windshield.


----------



## Pneumothorax (Dec 8, 2013)

gsp754 said:


> I don't like that analogy, because they will both be traveling at the same speed. I like this one, How about driving a car down the road and I throw a baseball at your windshield as hard as I can or I throw a bowling ball at your windshield as hard as I can. The baseball will be going much faster but will probably just bounce off, the bowling ball will be going much slower but it's going through that windshield.



Agree.


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> My figures already disprove this. If you were to go from the 350gr arrow to the 500 gr arrow you would see a net increase in momentum and a decrease in ke.
> 
> Prove me wrong!



if you take a given bows specs for instance my Knightmare a 350 ibo 30" 70lb with 350 grain arrow with 15 grains on the string your looking at 345 fps with 92.5 ft-lbs ke and a momentum of .536 slug-ft/s now with a 500 grain arrow it would change to 295 fps with 96.6 ft-lbs ke and momentum of .654 slug-ft/s. As you go up in arrow weight your going to get more ke and momentum up to a certain point for my personal knightmare that point starts around 590 grains. at this point the ke drops below that of the 350gr arrow but the momentum continues to increase. So yes ke can go down and momentum still increase. There is also a point at which momentum will start to decrease as well when shooting super heavy (750 + grain) arrows


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 9, 2013)

another factor thats figured in a hunting situation is the broadhead. Speed doesn't play as much in penetration as ke and momentum, but when it comes to cutting efficiency it does. The faster a blade is moving the more efficient the cut will be. If anyones ever seen the ATOM broadhead that is the theory behind the razor cables.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

Just to set the record straight - I believe KE and M figures to be total -huddle dooo - to begin with, even though I'll argue them till I'm blue in the face. 
I actually prefer my own "power factor" formula I developed after researching them. I find it far more accurate.

I may actually conduct a series of tests in which a single bow and single arrow are used to prove or disprove the whole argument regarding penetration and KE and M.

Same arrow with a weight of 350gr. shot through a bow into media and then the same arrow with a 150gr. lead rod insert in the same shaft doing the same. No other changes. Same bow, pull weight, same media, same broadhead, etc. Only the arrow weight will change. I wanted to do this years ago but we didnt have affordable media back then.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

Ackool1234 said:


> if you take a given bows specs for instance my Knightmare a 350 ibo 30" 70lb with 350 grain arrow with 15 grains on the string your looking at 345 fps with 92.5 ft-lbs ke and a momentum of .536 slug-ft/s now with a 500 grain arrow it would change to 295 fps with 96.6 ft-lbs ke and momentum of .654 slug-ft/s. As you go up in arrow weight your going to get more ke and momentum up to a certain point for my personal knightmare that point starts around 590 grains. at this point the ke drops below that of the 350gr arrow but the momentum continues to increase. So yes ke can go down and momentum still increase. There is also a point at which momentum will start to decrease as well when shooting super heavy (750 + grain) arrows


are those actual figures or are those calculated figures? just asking.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> Just to set the record straight - I believe KE and M figures to be total - I AM A POTTY MOUTH -- I AM A POTTY MOUTH - to begin with, even though I'll argue them till I'm blue in the face.
> I actually prefer my own "power factor" formula I developed after researching them. I find it far more accurate.
> 
> I may actually conduct a series of tests in which a single bow and single arrow are used to prove or disprove the whole argument regarding penetration and KE and M.
> ...


The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration. Period. You don't have to buy the media, just attend a few 3D shoots.  It won't take you many times pulling a 125 or 150 gr. tipped arrow vs. a 300 or 325 gr. arrow that is exposed on the other side of the target from a new 3d high density foam target to understand the difference. 

It doesn't take a bunch of mumbo jumbo math garbage to figure that one out.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration. Period. You don't have to buy the media, just attend a few 3D shoots.  It won't take you many times pulling a 125 or 150 gr. tipped arrow vs. a 300 or 325 gr. arrow that is exposed on the other side of the target from a new 3d high density foam target to understand the difference.
> 
> It doesn't take a bunch of mumbo jumbo math garbage to figure that one out.


its not that simple. Ill leave that for another day.


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## Ackool1234 (Dec 9, 2013)

Those figures are what my bow shoots. Up until certain point a heavier arrow makes the bow more efficient, so more stored energy is transferred to the arrow. Either way with todays bows and the speed we get out of them, pick a good bh and a middle of the road arrow. You will blow through almost anything you shoot.


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## bowkill7 (Dec 9, 2013)

gsp754 said:


> I don't like that analogy, because they will both be traveling at the same speed. I like this one, How about driving a car down the road and I throw a baseball at your windshield as hard as I can or I throw a bowling ball at your windshield as hard as I can. The baseball will be going much faster but will probably just bounce off, the bowling ball will be going much slower but it's going through that windshield.


Ok so lets say they will both be traveling the same speed, you are saying if you have a choice you would just as soon have the cement block hit you? The stored energy in that much weight would drive you in the ground like a tent stake.  That's like the difference between getting hit by a car or a train and both traveling the same speed, the weight of the train would crush you. Now that's an extreme analogy but its the same principle.


----------



## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> its not that simple. Ill leave that for another day.



Let's go shootin one day. I'll prove to you that it really is that simple. Oh yeah, you best have an arrow puller with you.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Let's go shootin one day. I'll prove to you that it really is that simple. Oh yeah, you best have an arrow puller with you.


"The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration."

okay, I'll bite. the weight of the broadhead itself would be totally irrelevant if both arrows were of the same exact total weight.

BTW - most people dont shoot the proper Broadhead weight because they have never calculated FOC and just screwed on what everybody else uses.
Proper FOC would be somewhere between 7-10% for the best flight characteristics.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> "The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration."
> 
> okay, I'll bite. the weight of the broadhead itself would be totally irrelevant if both arrows were of the same exact total weight.
> 
> ...


Why don't you querry the Trad guys on this, maybe even drag Big Jim into it. You might be surprised to find out that you are 100% wrong, based merely on their field experience and practices, not on some mathematical theorem.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

How exactly do you know me or what my experiences are. How do you know that Ive havent shot the same tournaments that those guys have. You dont!
That tells me all I need to know about you.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> How exactly do you know me or what my experiences are. How do you know that Ive havent shot the same tournaments that those guys have. You dont!
> That tells me all I need to know about you.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

we can find out the weekend of april 11.


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## oldenred (Dec 9, 2013)

Here are some real world results that show what happens with heavier arrows vs. lighter arrows.


The following is data from an Excalibur Matrix 380

350 grains @ 373fps = 108.1KE
375 grains @ 366fps = 111.5KE
400 grains @ 356fps = 112.5KE
420 grains @ 351fps = 114.9KE
437 grains @ 345fps = 115.5KE
464 grains @ 338fps = 117.7KE
488 grains @ 330fps = 118.0KE
513 grains @ 323fps = 118.8KE

I will say it again, the faster your arrow goes the faster it will lose KE. At 40 yds a 500 grain arrow will keep more of it's KE than a 350 grain arrow.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 9, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Here are some real world results that show what happens with heavier arrows vs. lighter arrows.
> 
> 
> The following is data from an Excalibur Matrix 380
> ...



The figure you are looking for here is TPI (Total Penetration in Inches) Because the one factor I don't see being discussed is the mass / density / resistance of the target (flesh, meat and bone)

In that regard the arguments against KE are accurate. KE stops at the surface of the target with TPI being totally dependent on the weight, speed and resistance (or lack there of) from the broad head, and those choices are nearly infinite. 

Most of the hardcore trad guys use a double edged head. Two blade metal or knapped stone head. They aren't concerned with all of this mumbo jumbo. In fact, that is why most of them got away from wheelie bow shooting and returned to the raw challenge of instinct shooting. For them blowing a hole clean through a deer isn't near as important as making sure maximum damage is derived from (A) shot placement and (B) damage caused to vitals after the shot. Which in a lower velocity / penetration game is gained by a double edged head moving around like a dice-o-matic while the deer runs (if it runs). The myth that a hole has to be blown through the deer to have a blood trail is one of modern day manufacture and marketing.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Here are some real world results that show what happens with heavier arrows vs. lighter arrows.
> 
> 
> The following is data from an Excalibur Matrix 380
> ...


that bow is probably one of the most efficient cross bows ever designed. those numbers certainly support your statements. 
Me being much more of a traditionalist, I lean more towards the other side of the equation. There in lies the difference.
What the pull weight on that thing - like 250.


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## oldenred (Dec 9, 2013)

wgsnewnan said:


> that bow is probably one of the most efficient cross bows ever designed. Those numbers certainly support your statements.
> Me being much more of a traditionalist, i lean more towards the other side of the equation. There in lies the difference.
> What the pull weight on that thing - like 250.



260


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## Gaducker (Dec 9, 2013)

You cant have one with out the other.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

oldenred said:


> 260


wow. glad its you.


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## oldenred (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> wow. glad its you.



Not that bad honestly.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

What bolt length does it use?


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## oldenred (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> What bolt length does it use?



I shoot 20" but it can shoot 18" also.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 9, 2013)

I may just have to get me one one of them.


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## oldenred (Dec 9, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> I may just have to get me one one of them.



Got two deer with it this year and plain wore them both out. One was a 45 yd. shot deer made it less than 20 yds, second I shot it head on, put the arrow  in through the right side of the neck, completely separated the shoulder, came out through the chest with half the heart sticking out and the arrow buried 15 inches in the ground. That deer only made it about 15 yds. Plain wears em out!


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## gsp754 (Dec 9, 2013)

bowkill7 said:


> Ok so lets say they will both be traveling the same speed, you are saying if you have a choice you would just as soon have the cement block hit you? The stored energy in that much weight would drive you in the ground like a tent stake.  That's like the difference between getting hit by a car or a train and both traveling the same speed, the weight of the train would crush you. Now that's an extreme analogy but its the same principle.



We are talking about something lighter traveling faster vs something bigger traveling slower. Your analogy doesn't support that argument because they are both traveling at the same rate when they hit.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 10, 2013)

What was that he said? Say it ain't so!!!


----------



## WGSNewnan (Dec 10, 2013)

oldenred said:


> Got two deer with it this year and plain wore them both out. One was a 45 yd. shot deer made it less than 20 yds, second I shot it head on, put the arrow  in through the right side of the neck, completely separated the shoulder, came out through the chest with half the heart sticking out and the arrow buried 15 inches in the ground. That deer only made it about 15 yds. Plain wears em out!


Very nice. How difficult is it to traverse the woods with. any issues toting in or out through the thick stuff?


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration. Period. You don't have to buy the media, just attend a few 3D shoots.  It won't take you many times pulling a 125 or 150 gr. tipped arrow vs. a 300 or 325 gr. arrow that is exposed on the other side of the target from a new 3d high density foam target to understand the difference.
> 
> It doesn't take a bunch of mumbo jumbo math garbage to figure that one out.





WGSNewnan said:


> "The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration."
> 
> okay, I'll bite. the weight of the broadhead itself would be totally irrelevant if both arrows were of the same exact total weight.
> 
> ...





Miguel Cervantes said:


> What was that he said? Say it ain't so!!!



Thank You for proving my point.


----------



## WGSNewnan (Dec 10, 2013)

for example - you take an arrow with a total weight of 500 gr. using a 150 gr. broadhead.


you then take the very same arrow, swap out the 150gr. broadhead for a 100gr. and add a 50gr. lead insert and the smaller broadhead will outpenetrate the heavier broadhead because it typically has less cut area and therefore less resistance. 

Like I said - you statement that a heavier broadhead will penetrate more every time is not true if both arrows are the same weight.

Like I said earlier. We can find out April 11. If you are game?


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 10, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> for example - you take an arrow with a total weight of 500 gr. using a 150 gr. broadhead.
> 
> 
> you then take the very same arrow, swap out the 150gr. broadhead for a 100gr. and add a 50gr. lead insert and the smaller broadhead will outpenetrate the heavier broadhead because it typically has less cut area and therefore less resistance.
> ...


You just provided a bunch of double talk. Who says the 150 gr. broadhead has to have a different area of mass than the 100 gr. broadhead, merely a difference in density of mass. In this case the penetration should be the same based on your argument. When in fact, if you take two broadheads of exactly the same shape and area/mass, and add a 50 gr. tip insert or a 50 gr. shaft insert, the heavier arrow will have more penetration. Which is exactly what I have stated all along.


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## MossyCreek (Dec 10, 2013)

Nice soap opera guys....


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> The heavier gr. tip gets more penetration. Period. You don't have to buy the media, just attend a few 3D shoots.  It won't take you many times pulling a 125 or 150 gr. tipped arrow vs. a 300 or 325 gr. arrow that is exposed on the other side of the target from a new 3d high density foam target to understand the difference.
> 
> It doesn't take a bunch of mumbo jumbo math garbage to figure that one out.





Miguel Cervantes said:


> You just provided a bunch of double talk. Who says the 150 gr. broadhead has to have a different area of mass than the 100 gr. broadhead, merely a difference in density of mass. In this case the penetration should be the same based on your argument. When in fact, if you take two broadheads of exactly the same shape and area/mass, and add a 50 gr. tip insert or a 50 gr. shaft insert, the heavier arrow will have more penetration. Which is exactly what I have stated all along.



You did not say the heavier arrow. You said the heavier tip. That is the only double talk around here.

You misspoke. I knew exactly what you were trying to say. I just wasnt gonna let you off the hook for it. 
Good day sir - its been fun.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 10, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> You did not say the heavier arrow. You said the heavier tip. That is the only double talk around here.
> 
> You misspoke. I knew exactly what you were trying to say. I just wasnt gonna let you off the hook for it.
> Good day sir - its been fun.


I didn't say the "larger tip" I said the heavier grain. There is a difference, whether you're willing to admit it or not. And don't call me sir. I work for a living.


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 10, 2013)

BTW - love the screen name. I bet there aren't five people on here who could even tell you who he was.


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## alligood729 (Dec 10, 2013)

MossyCreek said:


> Nice soap opera guys....



Beat me to it......I'll just keep shooting my lightweight arrow thru stuff......


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## gsp754 (Dec 10, 2013)

alligood729 said:


> Beat me to it......I'll just keep shooting my lightweight arrow thru stuff......



I'm switching to a broom stick


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## oldenred (Dec 10, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> Very nice. How difficult is it to traverse the woods with. any issues toting in or out through the thick stuff?



Not bad at all. Can shoot around the tree while in the stand. That is why I got rid of my Equinox and got this one. Wouldn't trade it for any other xbow on the market. Also done some mods to it as well. Installed a 2lb trigger, better scope, and different quiver mount.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 10, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> BTW - love the screen name. I bet there aren't five people on here who could even tell you who he was.


Love it when someone refers to the general membership as illiterate.

I'm sort of with Alligood on this one. If i've gotta wear a pocket protector and nerd glasses to figure out what weight combo to used just to kill a deer then I'll just shoot a rifle when the time comes.


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## oldenred (Dec 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Love it when someone refers to the general membership as illiterate.
> 
> I'm sort of with Alligood on this one. If i've gotta wear a pocket protector and nerd glasses to figure out what weight combo to used just to kill a deer then I'll just shoot a rifle when the time comes.



If you shoot a rifle it needs to be at least a 300mag for deer for that knock down power. Anything less would be uncivilized.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 10, 2013)

oldenred said:


> If you shoot a rifle it needs to be at least a 300mag for deer for that knock down power. Anything less would be uncivilized.



You left out the 200 gr. bullet..


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## WGSNewnan (Dec 10, 2013)

Miguel Cervantes said:


> Love it when someone refers to the general membership as illiterate.
> 
> I'm sort of with Alligood on this one. If i've gotta wear a pocket protector and nerd glasses to figure out what weight combo to used just to kill a deer then I'll just shoot a rifle when the time comes.




“What intelligent things you say sometimes ! One would think you had studied.” 

“Three things too much, and three too little are pernicious to man; to speak much, and know little; to spend much, and have little; to presume much, and be worth little.” 

You couldn't have picked a better screen name.


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## Beenthere&donethat (Dec 10, 2013)

WGSNewnan said:


> BTW - love the screen name. I bet there aren't five people on here who could even tell you who he was.



Can you say Don Quixote?


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## scropydbreed (Dec 10, 2013)

I shoot 408 gain arrow 100 grain tip at 402fps how ever I shoot a scorpyd I kill deer at. 65 yards  plus at 70 yards I'm pushing 128 ke


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## Miguel Cervantes (Dec 10, 2013)

Beenthere&donethat said:


> Can you say Don Quixote?



Don't challenge Dulcinea. She doesn't like being proven wrong.


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## lblanton1 (Dec 10, 2013)




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