# continental field trials dixie plantation 2013



## ddb217 (Jan 23, 2013)

Does anyone have any info on the trial and has anyone attended as a spectator


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## coveyrise (Jan 23, 2013)

I have road it many years ago. Have not been in 6 or 8 years. It is a big to do around this area. You can normally rent horses to ride if you care to. It is worth going if for nothing else to see the place. Not sure if they ever restored the main house. The wood carving of  the pointers on the wall of the smoking room was a neat thing to see. You should be able to get all the info you want on the American Field website.


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## 28gage (Jan 24, 2013)

http://www.thefieldtrialer.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=3569

Link to the order of running for the AA and Derby championship.  As results come should be posted here.


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## muckalee (Jan 25, 2013)

Just a coincidence, but I was at vet yesterday having a bird dog checked out and met a Mrs. Labree.  Her late husband was in the field trial game for years.  Now she raises puppies for some of the bigger trainers.  Seems like a wonderful lady in the few minutes we spent together.  Back to main point,  She was headed to the Continental @ Dixie Plantation.  Goes every year.  Does not go out on horseback but loves the comraderie and told me it was like a family (field trial that is) reunion.


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## 28gage (Jan 25, 2013)

Derby results...

CH Dominator Dotted Line owner Curtis Futch; handler Jamie Daniels
RUCH Lester's Dizzy Dean Gary Lester Owner and Handler


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## coveyrise (Jan 25, 2013)

muckalee said:


> Just a coincidence, but I was at vet yesterday having a bird dog checked out and met a Mrs. Labree.  Her late husband was in the field trial game for years.  Now she raises puppies for some of the bigger trainers.  Seems like a wonderful lady in the few minutes we spent together.  Back to main point,  She was headed to the Continental @ Dixie Plantation.  Goes every year.  Does not go out on horseback but loves the comraderie and told me it was like a family (field trial that is) reunion.



Was that Pat Labree's wife? He was a very quiet man that really knew dogs.He could really connect with dogs. He liked setters also. Something you don't see too often in trialers.


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## 28gage (Jan 26, 2013)

This one is taken some time, there were 44 dogs in the derby and 80 dogs in the championship.  That's a heck of a trial............


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## coveyrise (Jan 26, 2013)

We hunted til 11:30 this morn. You could kill a dog in this heat. Don't see how they can run in afternoon. This weather stinks.


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## muckalee (Jan 26, 2013)

coveyrise said:


> Was that Pat Labree's wife? He was a very quiet man that really knew dogs.He could really connect with dogs. He liked setters also. Something you don't see too often in trialers.



Yes according to my vet.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 27, 2013)

coveyrise said:


> We hunted til 11:30 this morn. You could kill a dog in this heat. Don't see how they can run in afternoon. This weather stinks.



Conditioning........   

These temps aren't bad at all for a conditioned dog.  I've watched dogs run 1hr braces in temps hovering in the low 90's.  As long as the dog is well conditioned for the heat, and knows how to handle and use water, good dogs can handle it. 

 I just got back from the GA Brit trial at Di Lane.  The good dogs didn't have any problem yesterday in 1 hr braces, and today's temps were a piece of cake.


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## 28gage (Jan 28, 2013)

they have run 40 of the 80 AA dogs and so far they have announced six "call back" dogs:

 Survivor's Real Deal, Stallion, Anticipation's Allegretto, Touch's Game Point, In The Shadow, and House's White Hawk.

Dry and birds hard to come by...........


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## coveyrise (Jan 28, 2013)

Jetjockey said:


> Conditioning........
> 
> These temps aren't bad at all for a conditioned dog.  I've watched dogs run 1hr braces in temps hovering in the low 90's.  As long as the dog is well conditioned for the heat, and knows how to handle and use water, good dogs can handle it.
> 
> I just got back from the GA Brit trial at Di Lane.  The good dogs didn't have any problem yesterday in 1 hr braces, and today's temps were a piece of cake.



I have watched dogs run in 90 degree weather also. I have also watched well conditioned dogs damaged for life because their handler did not have the sense to stop in warm weather. I was in Fla. yesterday afternoon and it was hot. I am sure it was cooler at Di-Lane.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 29, 2013)

coveyrise said:


> I have watched dogs run in 90 degree weather also. I have also watched well conditioned dogs damaged for life because their handler did not have the sense to stop in warm weather. I was in Fla. yesterday afternoon and it was hot. I am sure it was cooler at Di-Lane.



I'm sure it was cooler at Di Lane.   And I'm not trying to argue.  I was just stating that trials are often held when it gets warm.  These temps aren't what I'd consider hot, even where the trial is being held.  And these arent regular hunting dogs, they are trial dogs.  These are the best of the best at handling all aspects of trials, including heat.  They don't make it to the level they are running without being superior athletes that can handle heat.


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## muckalee (Jan 29, 2013)

Jet jockey, I'll take my regular old meat hunting pointers and run with your dog all day long.  You seem to think that a field trial dog is somewhat superior in all aspects.  What you don't seem to realize is that a lot of meat dogs have field trial bloodlines coursing through their veins.  Mine are direct descendants of sir Lancelot, guard rail, crows little joe, elhew Damascus, just to name few.  So I think they got the go power.   And they are in shape, so come on down.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 29, 2013)

muckalee said:


> Jet jockey, I'll take my regular old meat hunting pointers and run with your dog all day long.  You seem to think that a field trial dog is somewhat superior in all aspects.  What you don't seem to realize is that a lot of meat dogs have field trial bloodlines coursing through their veins.  Mine are direct descendants of sir Lancelot, guard rail, crows little joe, elhew Damascus, just to name few.  So I think they got the go power.   And they are in shape, so come on down.



I think your taking this the wrong way.  I was simply replying to a post about the heat.  The dogs at the Continental are the best of the best.  The trainers go through hundreds of dogs to find the one that can compete at that level.  It's not just about good breeding, it's about getting that one lucky dog who can compete at that level from breeding good dogs over and over again.  Just having great blood lines isn't enough.  And being in shape can mean many different things.  Is a dog in hunting shape where they hunt for 3-4 hours at a time, or are they in trial shape where they go full out for 1 hr at top speed and leave everything in the field when it's 85+ degrees out.  I'm not saying one is better than the other, it's just different.   Just like sprinters are different than marathon runners.

If you think your dog has what it takes to compete against dog like "In The Shadow", go do it.  You could easily make lots of money and probably sell it for $50,000.  Dogs like that don't grow on trees.


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## coveyrise (Jan 29, 2013)

The dogs at the Continental are the best of the best at what they do and that is running and show. NOT AT FINDING BIRDS. Almost any handler will tell you that they don't want more than 1 or 2 finds and that they breed for run and not bird finding. Everytime a dog points it is one more chance that it can screw up. We never breed field trial blood anymore for our hunting dogs. Been there done that. Will never go back.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 30, 2013)

Oh God.  Here we go again with the myths and the "my meat dog can beat your trial dog" crap.  Many trial dogs spend the off season being meat dogs, can your meat dogs spend the off season being a trial dog???


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## BirdNut (Jan 30, 2013)

I think I would leave this one alone but I cant.

I noticed that in the years the brace by brace synopsis of the National Championship, (http://www.amesplantation.org/field-trial/2012 national/synopsis.asp) there are dogs that have fewer finds and win than others that have more finds and don't win.  Now, some could have had a fault, or did not have the "ground race" that the judges and the field trail folks like to see.  We bird hunters would tend towards the dog with the most finds, and would not really discredit unproductives

I have a 10 year old  pointer who had 2 finds in 30 minutes and 3 in 3 hours on foot on a place someone mentioned 1-2 finds per horseback ridden brace.   Maybe I should enter field trials with him LOL!  PS  He has the breeding for it...

I think you have to recognize trials for what they are-like coveyrise says.  It's like comparing NFL football to combat.  I am sure there are some NFL players that would excel in combat, and there might be a few out there serving in the armed forces who could be in the NFL.  But we all know everyday people who will never see the NFL who you would want next to you in a fox hole when it hits the fan.

I think you would also have to agree that there are some fine dogs in the trial circuits that will hunt like crazy for you and be a good bird dog.  Jetjockey must have one of those.  I have known a few other folks that had one of these as well.

Then we all know there are dogs that are not trialed that are the finest bird dogs on the planet.  That is your dog, your friends dog, and my dog.  It is a truth.  And all of mine that have passed would have beat your trial dogs into the dirt, hands down. 

And I think that there are some dogs on the trial circuit, that given the opportunity to hunt behind the dog without the benefit of knowing its pedigree, placements and wins, we might leave that dog in the box after wasting a day or two with it, and go to one of our "meat dogs".

The other thing I noticed is a study was done on Ames back in the early part of the last decade with radio collared quail during the Field Trials.  Those dogs ran by a lot of birds.  In some cases I am sure the wind, etc. had a play.  To be fair, another study was done around Albany by Clay Sisson and some others (http://www.wec.ufl.edu/floridaquail/Documents/STUDIES OF QUAIL HUNTING EFFICIENCY.pdf) about the same time that said that dogs miss about 50% of the coveys they should have found, and or pointed coveys ran up to a 1/4 mile before the shooters moved up to the point.  This puts "unproductives" and "false points" in a whole new light.   Its an interesting article...  Below is one of the diagrams from ames that shows the brace routes and location  of the radio collared coveys.

Me, I will take my pottering old bird dogs any day.  I am glad there are people that enjoy the trials.


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## 28gage (Jan 30, 2013)

You're both right sorta.  When I got in to bird hunting in a serious way back in the 1970's I was lucky to meet and hunt with the owner of Easy Mark (won the Nat Open SD championship 2 times, back to back) a dog who at the time folks said that it looked unfair to other dogs as his nose was so spectacular.  He had a litter mate Plum Thicket Sam who lived in the house and was a "meat dog".  Some folks said and I think with fair reason that Sam was a better dog than Mark.  Mark was a "meat dog" too and I had the pleasure of hunting with him on a day when over 75 birds were shot.  Why do I bring this up? because they had several problems with mark because they used him so much.  Keeping him broke, keeping his sky kissing style etc.

Sam Handled the heat better than Mark.  So not all great dogs can run in 80 degree temps or don't want to.  Not all great dogs make good meat dogs, range, speed (out running their nose etc).  But a great trail dog and a great meat dog are both something special.  And if you want a great meat dog you end up with many great trial dogs in the bloodline.  You may be breeding to a meat dog out of a meat dog but the blood of great trial dogs is always there.

Trial dogs become trial dogs in alot of cases because they are given the chance and are brought along from an early age to trial.  Many meat dogs given the same chance could be successful in trials.  The overriding issue is smarts.  A smart meat dog can adjust to horseback and with work start to run bigger and more to the front(we want our meat dogs to the front also but would rather have them where the birds are than in front at all times).  A smart trial dog adjusts to the cover and can run in the off season in front of the most demanding bird hunter.  But not all can or will do both.  It's certainly not a Ford/Chevy kind of thing but has some simlarities.

So what's the point of this little rant, simply that a good dog is a good dog, and there are great dogs in both venues.  Look at Browntown Johnny Reb.  Meat dog, won walking trials and is now running as a an AllAge dog and winning.  So as they say in "south central LA" can't we all get along.........


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## BirdNut (Jan 30, 2013)

Well said 28gage...

Is it a myth or true that more than a few of the trial dogs don't live long...my vet told me this, and I noticed through the years the early mortality.  I am talking in the 5-8 year range.  I would imagine its from the hard living.  Remember the first guy to run the Marathon died when he finished...


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## 28gage (Jan 30, 2013)

No first hand evidence but the constant travel in confined area (life in the truck for months), lots of roading at high speeds and just the wear and tear of the trial existence seems like it would take a toll at some point.  For this very reason I plan to pick my derby up after his last trial in March and bring him home for some R&R, good chow and serious ear scratching.  Then he'll hit the trail north in late July.  You hope it's as fun for the dog as it is for the owner but not sure it is.....by the way I think that some of the breeding practices can bring genetic faults into the picture also and have some effect on longevity (cancer in some lines continues with the breeding of certain lines with others).


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## BirdNut (Jan 30, 2013)

I will offer this to the board for consideration:

The write-up from Ames from last year, the Winner:

http://www.amesplantation.org/field-trial/2012 national/winner.asp

_"Connor’s E Z Button, call name “Button”, is owned by David O’Connor, Bullard, TX and handled by Steve Hurdle, Hickory Flat, Mississippi. Button was braced with Gamemaker, call name “Chip”, owned and handled by Dr. Fred Corder, Corinth, MS in the 9th brace of the trial, which was run on Friday morning, February 17th. Button was credited with 6 finds and backed his bracemate twice. His first find was at the 15 minute mark and his last find came at 2 hours and 52 minutes. Button had a good ground race, finishing strong to the front with plenty of energy and enthusiasm. Folks riding that morning knew they had seen something special! "

http://www.amesplantation.org/field-trial/2012 national/synopsis.asp

In the brace there were 11 finds in 3 hours between the two dogs.

Connor’s E Z Button had six pieces of bird work, two backs and finished the three hours
Game Maker had five finds, and finished the three hours.

_In 2008, down in Mexico, we had 15 coveys in a ONE TWO HOUR walk, over Bud and Sally, two of the best dogs you never heard of.  For the day, we had over 30 coveys with a string of dogs, but I would bet more than half were shot over Bud & Sally as they were down every other brace.   Now granted the biomass down in Mexico is mind boggling and has to be witnessed to be believed.  It's the kind of hunting that makes you want to quit fiddling around here in the states.  I have been blessed to be able to hunt down there a ton from 2005-2009.  We were consistently able to move 25-40 wild coveys a day in all kinds of weather.  That will make for some really good dogs.

If the level of violence ever diminishes in Mexico, I would encourage all to make the trip.  It will ruin you for hunting anywhere else.

Here's a pic of Bud & Sally (Sally is the rip rap in the distance, Bud is the bigger orange dog):


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## 28gage (Jan 30, 2013)

If you had Gamemaker with you in Mexico you might have found more.  The bird situation at Ames is not what it used to be when dogs had 20 to 27 finds in the 3 hours on wild quail (mexico probably had more birds then too).

 Now the edges are thick and narly and the birds can disappear in a hurry. 3200 birds are released in September if I'm not mistaken and there aren't anywhere near 3200 when the trial starts in Feb.  Couple that with a gallery of 40-50 horses riding and the birds get real smart real quick.    No doubt mexican bird hunting is better than anything you'll find in the states today but you may not find a better birdfinder than Gamemaker anywhere, but I could settle for Salley and Bud.


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## BirdNut (Jan 30, 2013)

28gage said:


> If you had Gamemaker with you in Mexico you might have found more.  The bird situation at Ames is not what it used to be when dogs had 20 to 27 finds in the 3 hours on wild quail (mexico probably had more birds then too).
> 
> Now the edges are thick and narly and the birds can disappear in a hurry. 3200 birds are released in September if I'm not mistaken and there aren't anywhere near 3200 when the trial starts in Feb.  Couple that with a gallery of 40-50 horses riding and the birds get real smart real quick.    No doubt mexican bird hunting is better than anything you'll find in the states today but you may not find a better birdfinder than Gamemaker anywhere, but I could settle for Salley and Bud.



I would like to try that and see...we could settle the meat versus trial dog debate!


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## Jetjockey (Jan 30, 2013)

BirdNut said:


> I would like to try that and see...we could settle the meat versus trial dog debate!



My question is what's the difference between a meat, and a trial dog?  Do they come from different planets?  Different litters?  Does one only point birds that will have a shotgun fired at it, and one only point birds that will have a blank gun fired at it?  Do they eat the same food?  What about dogs that trial during trial season, and get hunted during hunting season?  What kind of dog is that?  I'm really confused on the differences.  Aren't they ALL dogs that often come from the same exact breedings and often the same exact litters?


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## BirdNut (Jan 30, 2013)

I think one of the main differences is all trial dogs are registered, either with AKC or FDSB.  Some of the best meat dogs out there are either not registered, could not be registered, or are drops.  One of my best dogs, who would give some folks a run for their money came from a line of dogs that had been bred for years and years by an 80 something year old man for his own use.  No one had any idea on the pedigree, just that they were Mr. M's dogs, and she was a good one.  People who saw her said she had some Elhew blood, but as much as I tried, I could never get any papers on her.  The old gentleman just didn't care about that sort of thing.  I am talking about a dog who 1) would ring a field and you'd only have to barely step foot in it unless she pointed, 2)  was a "winder" that would dance on hind legs to catch bird scent, 3) handled and pointed seven finds flawlessly at less than 6 months old 4) could run like the wind and prompted my vet to being to question whether she was burning up the cover a little too fast, when she slammed on point; she had a nose and brakes to go with the speed, 5)could hunt all day long, and often did 6) once pointed laying on her side, buried half deep in some critter's burrow where a quail had run.  She also had some faults, but since she is passed, I am only thinking about the good stuff.  Faults were not that bad-only retrieved very well when another dog was in the mix.  And would occasionally flip me off when I called her which prompted me to delve into e-collar use after getting too old, fat and slow to chase her down.  And with one certain dog, she always would run that dogs birds up-I have no idea why-some slight I suppose in the world of dogdom that we humans won't ever understand.  She did it without fail, and it was so bad that we just resolved never to run the two as a brace.

I think another key difference is the trial dogs tend to burn it up as the primary goal, and bird finding is secondary.  They are not hunting as much as showing like coveyrise said.

I know of people who have put their dogs up against trial dogs in a friendly competition, and you would be surprised to learn how poorly the trial dogs fared.  Never mind that it was setters vs. pointers...I don't want to open another can of worms.  Lets just say the trial gentleman made all kinds of excuses why his dogs found no birds, and the man with the pointers asked well aren't we hunting the same cover in the same weather at the same time and my dogs are finding birds?  Of course, there was no answer...

Jetjockey, I have not seen your pup, but from your comments and other posts, I think you have one of those special ones that can both compete at the highest levels, yet still make a good shooting dog (shooting dog in the sporting sense, not the trial meaning).  That being said, I think Muckalee was extending an invitation to you-take him up on it.

I never thought much about this topic till 1) I attended some trials and conicident with that 2) other people made comments about dogs I personally hunted with (either mine or someone else's) regarding their bird-finding abilities.  Their premise was these every day dogs would out-find the trial dogs.  I really don't know if its true or not.

I guess the thing to do would be to take a meat dog to Ames and see what he does at the Nationals.

I commend you for participating.  I flirted with it about 15 years ago and decided the time and money was too much for me and backed off.  I also looked into the NSTRA type stuff which would be less money probably, but I did not like the format and watched the way the winning dogs were required to handle in the field as opposed to going after where birds might really be.

Best of luck to you this season and those to come.  Maybe one day we can organize a Woody's informal trial and say nice things about each other's dogs while enjoying a good day afield.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 30, 2013)

Birdnut...  The thing is, they are all the same.  They typically all come from the same breeding, the same sires, dames, etc.  Trial dogs are really no different than meat dogs, with the exception they have typically shown a trainer that they can go above and beyond, and they get competed.  They all have the same noses, the same eyes, etc.  You take any trial dog and give them the chance to be a meat dog, and they typically do it very well.  Many trial dogs are just never given the chance.  My dog isnt anything special.  She just spends two months hunting as well as trialing.  She can do it because I give her the chance to do it, not because shes special.  Her nose is probably average, but her handle, run, and stamina are definately above average.  When I hunt her, I take away that speed and slow her down.  Then, shes just a meat dog, just like every other hunting dog out there.  All trial dogs are is meat dogs who have shown they can run and stay out front, have decent noses, and lots and lots of stamina.  You really can't breed much for a great nose, just like you can't breed a dog for great eyesight.  But what you can breed for is speed, stamina, desire, and bidability.  Those are the things that set great trial dogs apart....  Its not different than in any other sport.  In basketball, who cares if you can drain 3's all day long if you can't manage to run up and down the court for 40 minutes.  Who cares if you can drain 3's with nobody on the court, but you are 5 ft tall and get stuffed when your playing a real opponent.....  Trailing is no different.  Its not just about finding birds.  Its about the dog showing it knows where to hunt, how to handle, has speed, stamina, and the ability to be trained to the highest level... Guys who don't understand trials seem to think the dog who finds the most birds wins.  Who cares if the dog stumbles on the most birds if it cant run for an hour, goes the wrong way, and busts the birds it finds because its too stuborn to be broke.   Can a dog who only finds 1 bird beat a dog who finds 4?  Absolutely, Ive done it.   At Di Lane this weekend the dogs on the GD course found a lot more birds than the dogs on the AA course. Does that make them better?  Nope... It means there was more birds on the GD course.  At the AKC Nationals at Ames last year there was 1 course that had only 3 or 4 finds the entire 2 weeks, while another course had dogs with birds nearly every brace.  Does that make the dogs on the course with more birds better?  No!  Its no different with any trials.  You judge the hole dog.  The run, the steadiness, the handle, the hunt, and yes, the dogs ability to find birds.  Thats why sometimes you hear guys who are happier with 1 or 2 finds then they would be with 4 or 5.  Often times, the dog with 4 or 5 doesnt get the chance to show how well it runs, how well it handles, and that it can stay outfront.  Judges judge the entire dog, not just how many birds they find.  And contrary to popular belief, finding birds is more important than the run.  You can win with a crappy run if you have great bird work.  You cant win with a great run and no bird work.  Trust me I KNOW!!!      If you take a trial dog and slow them down, all they are are meat dogs.  Thats it.  When my dog is at a trial, shes a trial dog.  When shes out hunting, shes a meat dog.  When shes at home, shes a house dog.  Putting labels on dogs is rediculous and accomplishes nothing.


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## 28gage (Jan 30, 2013)

Well, I think you're both are wrong.  There I said it.  First off the whole point of field trials is to better the breed.  This is why folks go to national champs to raise litters.  This is why we have Futurities to see who has a dog that best represents those traits we all love to watch in the field.  A dog that will better the breed.  Now you can see some sorry individuals at a trial and they don't win big open stakes but they are there and don't get picked to further the breed.  But you can go to the bank with a futurity winner that continues to win as an adult.  He is the future of our dogs.

The race is most sought after in the allage dog.  He is the finest birddog on steroids, he burns a whole in the wind to the front and lets his nose and the birds stop his quest.  He is a special case, the top shelf of gun dogs.  And JJ if you think an AA dog with a poor race and several finds will win your wrong.  That can only happen in a stake where the others had poor races.  It's more likely that a dog with one quaility find and a big forward race will win over a dog with several quailty finds but a lessor race.  And AA trials have been won on race alone, that's the weight given to the AA race.  

But the Shooting dog is the dog we all want when we drop the tailgate.  He has a spectacular nose, he goes to the birds where ever they might be on the day he's turned lose, once he finds them he continues to scour the land looking for that same situation over and over again.  He bends to the handlers control, he turns when asked to and stays in sight more than not.  But with the shooting dog the weight is on the bird work.  And a dog with truly top notch bird work and more of it will place ahead of a dog with a good race but only 1 or 2 quality finds in most cases.   In an hour brace of quailty shooting dogs there may be 5 or 10 finds if birds are handy.  These are the dogs Birdnuts dogs came from.  And if you truely believe that your unregistered meat dog could out bird a quality shooting dog I believe you would be dissapointed.  The quaility shooting dog would most likely beat yours to the birds as they are bred to and judged to be fast on the ground and to have a superior handle so to guide them if the handler has a good idea where the birds might be.   They are bred to be the fastest on the ground, to have superior noses, to have the best instincts, to use the wind properly.  So when you talk about a fine open shooting dog you are talking about the dog we all want.

Now when birdnut talks about a contest between his dog and a field trial dog there needs to be a disclaimer, like fishing where 80% of the fish may be in 10% of the water there are a lot of sorry field trial dogs, just as there are alot of sorry meat dogs.  At any trial only 10-15% of the dogs entered have any chance to win.  So I'm saying we take your dog and run him on a neutral court with a champion shooting dog like Elhew Swami, all things being equal she will spank most any dog,  meat or trial.

But the bottom line is that you would not have your fine meat dog if we hadn't been lining them up for a hundred years to see who had the best one.  Thats why we do it and old farmer joe who had the good ones didn't know the linage but I'll bet if he did you would recognize the names of the dogs that came before his.  OK I'm stepping down from box and go outside and feed some pretty good kind of dogs that go back to Major Lexington boy, Riggins 
White Knight, Evolution, Guard Rail and many more that laid the foundation for our bird hunting today.  And rest asured that they would put a whooping on my dogs and not feel bad about it just thankful that they ran and won.


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## Jetjockey (Jan 30, 2013)

28.  I've seen an AA dog with a poor race win because it had finds, when the dogs with great races went bird less.  It's not uncommon.  I also know that it only takes 1 great find to win.  I agree that the race is very important, but, a dog still needs birds. If all the dogs have good bird work, the one with the best race wins..  However, it goes both ways.  When two dogs have similar races, the dog with the most birds, and best bird work, wins.  That's why the winner at Ames usually has the most, or close to the most bird work.   I still go back to my original opinion though.  The top dogs at the Continental will not have any problems with the heat because they are superior athletes.  The dog with the best race and best bird work will win.


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## 28gage (Jan 30, 2013)

It's certainly uncommon for an AA dog with a poor race to win anything.  But you're correct that a dog with a great race can win with one good find.


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## coveyrise (Jan 31, 2013)

I know this for a fact. One of the AA breeders bought one of the fastest greyhounds in america and experimented with it in his line of pointers. Said he was wanting to put more run into his line. That has been probably 10 years ago. Did this happen often? Probably not, but all I ever heard at the trials was how great of a ground race a dog had. Yes it was important that they had bird finds and handled everything in order but the ground race always seemed to be what the judges wanted. That is the reason I gave up trialing years ago. I never ran in an AA trial but have won and placed in many FDSB open shooting dog trials. Even judged a few.  
JJ if you think they are all the same, that is your right. I think there is nothing farther from the truth. Most trial dog lines are much harder to pull in than dogs from hunting lines. What difference does that make? Not much if you don't care if you ever see a dog point. We have gone to closer working Llewellins and the owners are thrilled to actually get to see a dog slam a point in front of them. Also it does'nt take forever to get to a dog when they are closer and birds don't flush near as much as they did with the big running pointers. We have been averaging 4-5 coveys an hour foot hunting this year. All wild birds no early release or pen raised birds of any kind. We have been able to cut our courses down and put less pressure on our birds with these closer working dogs. 
As Muckalee said, I have had the pleasure to get to work dogs with some national champion dogs. The ones that won it all at Ames. I was totally unimpressed at their bird finding abilities or should I say lack of.I actually felt sorry for the owners after calling point so many times. That was not a great way to treat a host.


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## JuliaH (Jan 31, 2013)

Well said JJ!!  I think this argument may never be settled though....  WHY, when people who hunt, are looking for pups, do they want FC pedigrees?  And they do want winners in those pedigrees... What you and I do (and maybe some others, but we are most vocal I guess about our trialing) IS important to folks when they set out to purchase a good dog. It shows up in the pedigree if AKC, or you can add it if you do American Field, NSTRA, etc. so that your dogs' accomplishments show up. 







Jetjockey said:


> Birdnut...  The thing is, they are all the same.  They typically all come from the same breeding, the same sires, dames, etc.  Trial dogs are really no different than meat dogs, with the exception they have typically shown a trainer that they can go above and beyond, and they get competed.  They all have the same noses, the same eyes, etc.  You take any trial dog and give them the chance to be a meat dog, and they typically do it very well.  Many trial dogs are just never given the chance.  My dog isnt anything special.  She just spends two months hunting as well as trialing.  She can do it because I give her the chance to do it, not because shes special.  Her nose is probably average, but her handle, run, and stamina are definately above average.  When I hunt her, I take away that speed and slow her down.  Then, shes just a meat dog, just like every other hunting dog out there.  All trial dogs are is meat dogs who have shown they can run and stay out front, have decent noses, and lots and lots of stamina.  You really can't breed much for a great nose, just like you can't breed a dog for great eyesight.  But what you can breed for is speed, stamina, desire, and bidability.  Those are the things that set great trial dogs apart....  Its not different than in any other sport.  In basketball, who cares if you can drain 3's all day long if you can't manage to run up and down the court for 40 minutes.  Who cares if you can drain 3's with nobody on the court, but you are 5 ft tall and get stuffed when your playing a real opponent.....  Trailing is no different.  Its not just about finding birds.  Its about the dog showing it knows where to hunt, how to handle, has speed, stamina, and the ability to be trained to the highest level... Guys who don't understand trials seem to think the dog who finds the most birds wins.  Who cares if the dog stumbles on the most birds if it cant run for an hour, goes the wrong way, and busts the birds it finds because its too stuborn to be broke.   Can a dog who only finds 1 bird beat a dog who finds 4?  Absolutely, Ive done it.   At Di Lane this weekend the dogs on the GD course found a lot more birds than the dogs on the AA course. Does that make them better?  Nope... It means there was more birds on the GD course.  At the AKC Nationals at Ames last year there was 1 course that had only 3 or 4 finds the entire 2 weeks, while another course had dogs with birds nearly every brace.  Does that make the dogs on the course with more birds better?  No!  Its no different with any trials.  You judge the hole dog.  The run, the steadiness, the handle, the hunt, and yes, the dogs ability to find birds.  Thats why sometimes you hear guys who are happier with 1 or 2 finds then they would be with 4 or 5.  Often times, the dog with 4 or 5 doesnt get the chance to show how well it runs, how well it handles, and that it can stay outfront.  Judges judge the entire dog, not just how many birds they find.  And contrary to popular belief, finding birds is more important than the run.  You can win with a crappy run if you have great bird work.  You cant win with a great run and no bird work.  Trust me I KNOW!!!      If you take a trial dog and slow them down, all they are are meat dogs.  Thats it.  When my dog is at a trial, shes a trial dog.  When shes out hunting, shes a meat dog.  When shes at home, shes a house dog.  Putting labels on dogs is rediculous and accomplishes nothing.


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## 28gage (Jan 31, 2013)

coveyrise said:


> I know this for a fact. One of the AA breeders bought one of the fastest greyhounds in america and experimented with it in his line of pointers. Said he was wanting to put more run into his line. That has been probably 10 years ago. Did this happen often? Probably not, but all I ever heard at the trials was how great of a ground race a dog had. Yes it was important that they had bird finds and handled everything in order but the ground race always seemed to be what the judges wanted. That is the reason I gave up trialing years ago. I never ran in an AA trial but have won and placed in many FDSB open shooting dog trials. Even judged a few.
> JJ if you think they are all the same, that is your right. I think there is nothing farther from the truth. Most trial dog lines are much harder to pull in than dogs from hunting lines. What difference does that make? Not much if you don't care if you ever see a dog point. We have gone to closer working Llewellins and the owners are thrilled to actually get to see a dog slam a point in front of them. Also it does'nt take forever to get to a dog when they are closer and birds don't flush near as much as they did with the big running pointers. We have been averaging 4-5 coveys an hour foot hunting this year. All wild birds no early release or pen raised birds of any kind. We have been able to cut our courses down and put less pressure on our birds with these closer working dogs.
> As Muckalee said, I have had the pleasure to get to work dogs with some national champion dogs. The ones that won it all at Ames. I was totally unimpressed at their bird finding abilities or should I say lack of.I actually felt sorry for the owners after calling point so many times. That was not a great way to treat a host.



How bout some names, would love to know the winners at Ames that you spanked?  Not doubting you just interested in the dogs you speak of.  But of course my take is that your closer hunting dogs are the product of Shooting dog types just like mine and that a true AA dog is by definition always on the edge of being lost.  Thats why they have  the two diferent stakes, AA vs Shooting dog.  And I have to smile a little when I think this all started over a field trial report.


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## MudDucker (Jan 31, 2013)

I hope they rebuild the old house.  It had many unique qualities.  I hunted several times as a teenager with Mrs. Livingston. That lady was top drawer and quite a shot.


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## 28gage (Jan 31, 2013)

Call-backs for the Continental All Age as of tonight:

1. Survivor’s Real Deal – Mark McLain
Anticipation’s Allegretto - Rick Furney

2. Stallion – Tommy Davis
Loneoak War Path – Tom Shenker

3. Lester’s Bodacious – Rick Furney
Law and Order - Robin Gates

4. Touch’s Game Point - Mark McLain
House’s White Hawk – Ike Todd

5. In the Shadow –Robin Gates
Westfall’s Ranger – Andy Daugherty

6. Lester’s White Out – Gary Lester
Reward’s Chinquapin – Fred Robertson

7. Lester’s Storm – Lee Phillips
Touch’s Green Beret – Rick Furney

All are lucky no real meant dogs entered


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## JuliaH (Jan 31, 2013)

Breeds?  Probably mostly Pointers?  I don't see as many pointers, brittanys, weims, etc. any more at AKC trials... but we see a few more setters than we used to... 

Julia


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## 28gage (Jan 31, 2013)

Just like retriever folks use mostly labs (and mostly black labs though more and more yellow) and  Horseback trials are always dominated by pointers.. Reason, they win and are best suited to preform in their venue.  More setters are showing then in the past.  Not familiar with AKC.


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## BirdNut (Jan 31, 2013)

If I had a $10M plantation I would invite all you all down and we could settle this.    Still working on that one...I will let you all know when its ready!

28gage-that is how field trials started-competition.  I do agree that it has a positive impact on the breed, for the most part.  I think we could discuss what All Age dogs do to the breeds.

And I have 2 dogs that go all the way back to Lexington Jake-just like a lot of other people on here.  The sire to one of my dogs had more winners out of him at the time my Jake was whelped 10 years ago(don't know if this is still true) even though the sire was never trialed himself.  The grandsire is a national champion.

I am genuine when I say that I am glad there are people who enjoy the trials.  Its not for me.


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## JuliaH (Jan 31, 2013)

Birdnut... you could get the plantation and the trial and all the best dogs, and it may never be settled 

Interesting that American Field mostly is Pointers and some others while AKC is full of GSPs and some others...  AKC does not run as many hour trials, but I think AKC and American Field are doing some joint trials now, or getting ready to do it more than it used to be... that will be really neat!

JJ probably knows more about the joint trials than I do... but if David goes to any that I can afford to travel to, I would love to ride the gallery and watch the dogs. I learn more that way than anything else...just by seeing the dogs actually doing their thing 

Julia


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## BirdNut (Jan 31, 2013)

28gage said:


> Just like retriever folks use mostly labs (and mostly black labs though more and more yellow) and  Horseback trials are always dominated by pointers.. Reason, they win and are best suited to preform in their venue.  *More setters are showing then in the past*.  Not familiar with AKC.



Thought you all might enjoy this...was just looking at an old book and remembered that a good friend said the setters once dominated the trials like 29gage said...look at the photo (of the paintings) the setter is always to the front.   The date on the painting is 1885.  Notice too how the folks are dressed to the nines.  Also notice the 9 and 10 oclock tails.  Things have changed over the years.


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## 28gage (Jan 31, 2013)

Great pics, I have several prints on the wall that I love with similar scenes.  The setters are comeing on strong the last few years.  With Shadow Oak Bo and Rapidan running at Ames this year and The Hytest bred setters are tearing it up this year.  Great pics.  Had a thread on another forum dealing with the old times and their dress,  some folks still hunt in the old garb and only shoot side by sides.  Maybe it will come back.


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## 28gage (Jan 31, 2013)

BirdNut said:


> If I had a $10M plantation I would invite all you all down and we could settle this.    Still working on that one...I will let you all know when its ready!
> 
> 28gage-that is how field trials started-competition.  I do agree that it has a positive impact on the breed, for the most part.  I think we could discuss what All Age dogs do to the breeds.
> 
> ...



It's interesting that the sire lines of today almost all go back to three dogs and Jake is is in most of them.


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## coveyrise (Jan 31, 2013)

28gage said:


> How bout some names, would love to know the winners at Ames that you spanked?  Not doubting you just interested in the dogs you speak of.  But of course my take is that your closer hunting dogs are the product of Shooting dog types just like mine and that a true AA dog is by definition always on the edge of being lost.  Thats why they have  the two diferent stakes, AA vs Shooting dog.  And I have to smile a little when I think this all started over a field trial report.



PM Sent.


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## 28gage (Feb 1, 2013)

28gage said:


> Call-backs for the Continental All Age as of tonight:
> 
> 1. Survivor’s Real Deal – Mark McLain
> Anticipation’s Allegretto - Rick Furney
> ...



Just hersay but think the first four are out, two picked up and two lost.


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## 28gage (Feb 2, 2013)

The 2013 Continental Champion is Touch's Game Point with Lester's Storm being named Runner Up!


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