# Something for the "Free Thinkers"



## CRT (Sep 10, 2009)

I've noticed a reacurring trend on this forum. A Christian will post something concerning Christianity for the benefit of other Christians, and before long a "free thinker" will show up and try to impart some worldy wisdom on us poor sheltered fools. Why is that?

It's kind of like a bunch of guys standing around talking about hunting/fishing, having a nice time and then a couple members of PETA drop by just to let them know how barbaric and uncivilized they are for killing poor animals. You hypocrites do the same thing you accuse us of, going around trying to convert everybody. I can't speak for the other Christians on this board, but I don't go around to the "skeptic/free thinker" forums and jump in trying to prove this or that. Just wondering about that double standard.

Now if it's a thread on "Does God really exist?" or "Was there really a global flood?", by all means come and share your ideas and knowlege. But if on threads such as "Unconditional Grace" (something you know and care nothing about), why do you feel the need to even go there?

I pray that God continue to bless you (He already has whether you believe in Him or not).


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## rjcruiser (Sep 10, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> (something you know and care nothing about)



I'd agree with you on most of what you said except for the above.  Some of the folks that you'd classify as "free-thinkers" know more about the Bible and Theology than those who would call themselves "Christians."

But remember, this isn't the Christian Encouragement forum.....it is the discussion, debate and study forum.  And until the name changes, you'll probably get debate and discussion from all.


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## CRT (Sep 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd agree with you on most of what you said except for the above.  Some of the folks that you'd classify as "free-thinkers" know more about the Bible and Theology than those who would call themselves "Christians."



Sadly, I have to agree with your observation. And though many who profess to be Christians are not really, it is to our shame that so many profess but are so ignorant. We have a form of Christianity here in America that is not found in places where there is more persecution. In othere countries, you know who the Christians are. However, I didn't mean "know" as in "attaining knowledge about" but as in "experiencing". That's difference between you and me. We have both read the same book and know what it says, but we haven't had the same experience, therefore you reject it and I hold fast to it. But, I should have chosen a better word. 



> But remember, this isn't the Christian Encouragement forum.....it is the discussion, debate and study forum.  And until the name changes, you'll probably get debate and discussion from all.



Point taken, but the truth remains. You guys do the very thing you accuse us of. And at least we're command by our God to do so. 

Haven't we spoken here before?? I haven't been here until the last several day's, but screen names seems familiar.


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## jmharris23 (Sep 10, 2009)

Haha! I wouldn't call rj part of "you guys" - he is one of the most conservative Christian guys on here


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## CRT (Sep 10, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Haha! I wouldn't call rj part of "you guys" - he is one of the most conservative Christian guys on here




Oh I'm sorry. Please accept my humblest apology.


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## pnome (Sep 10, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Point taken, but the truth remains. You guys do the very thing you accuse us of. And at least we're command by our God to do so.



Well, I think I'm actually a member of "you guys" so...

What is this thing you are referring to here?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 10, 2009)

jmharris23 said:


> Haha! I wouldn't call rj part of "you guys" - he is one of the most conservative Christian guys on here





5pointCal said:


> Oh I'm sorry. Please accept my humblest apology.



  Thanks JM....apology accepted 5pointCal.


I haven't posted much over the past week or so in here.  Been busy and then nothing really peaking my interest.  Maybe because some is the same ole same ole.

But, I'll continue to post where I think I can cause the most trouble


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## Ronnie T (Sep 10, 2009)

Some of the frequent posters on this forum know the Gospel scripture forward and backwards, but they believe it's words are garbage.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 10, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Some of the frequent posters on this forum know the Gospel scripture forward and backwards, but they believe it's words are garbage.



Ronnie...I wouldn't go as far as to say garbage.  A little harsh don't you think?  I'd say they just don't believe them to be the infallibe truth.

It is easy to come on here, read a few posts and think you know people.  How far from the truth.  Over time, as you read more and more posts, you start to see where some people are coming from.  Yes you don't agree with there position, but you see the "why."  

Oh...and then there are others that you'll never understand.


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## CRT (Sep 10, 2009)

pnome said:


> Well, I think I'm actually a member of "you guys" so...
> 
> What is this thing you are referring to here?



You guys accuse us of going around trying to convert everybody, but then you go and do the same thing. So it's wrong for us to do as we are commanded, but okay for you to do the same thing.


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## pnome (Sep 10, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> You guys accuse us of going around trying to convert everybody, but then you go and do the same thing. So it's wrong for us to do as we are commanded, but okay for you to do the same thing.




It's wrong for you to do it because you're wrong. 

I find this cartoon is very applicable.  It's most everyone in this forum...


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd agree with you on most of what you said except for the above.  Some of the folks that you'd classify as "free-thinkers" know more about the Bible and Theology than those who would call themselves "Christians."
> 
> But remember, this isn't the Christian Encouragement forum.....it is the discussion, debate and study forum.  And until the name changes, you'll probably get debate and discussion from all.



An excellent response from one of the most knowledgeable and considerate members here!


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## CRT (Sep 10, 2009)

Pnome,

Unfortunately I can't see the cartoon, but your joke was pretty funny. LOL.


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## tomkiller (Sep 10, 2009)

Here's one:


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## pnome (Sep 10, 2009)

tomkiller said:


> Here's one:


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## rjcruiser (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> An excellent response from one of the most knowledgeable and considerate members here!





You must have not read all of my posts


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> You must have not read all of my posts



Don't go getting a larger hat just yet.
You know I enjoy your style of discussion!  It stimulates my thought process and has me reaching for my desk copy of the KJV often!


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## Randy (Sep 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Oh...and then there are others that you'll never understand.



Hey now I reseamble that remark.


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## earl (Sep 10, 2009)

Right after sacrificing small children, the devil makes me come here.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 10, 2009)

Every person on this board has a different opinion concerning spirituality. 
Every person here thinks they are mostly right. 
Some place their beliefs to the side to further a hearty debate. 
Most here would simply like for people to hear their opinions and respond in an honest manner. 
This applies to the 'Christians' and the non-religious.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Don't go getting a larger hat just yet.
> You know I enjoy your style of discussion!  It stimulates my thought process and has me reaching for my desk copy of the KJV often!



Serious question...why the KJV?  Or is that just what you have on the desk?

On sidenote, my personal Bible is the NKJV, but if it had been available at the time in NAS, that is what I prefer.



Randy said:


> Hey now I reseamble that remark.



Don't worry Randy, I wasn't talking about you  I think I agreed with earl who on here I didn't understand much.  I won't name names, but she lives in the mountains


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Serious question...why the KJV?  Or is that just what you have on the desk?



I keep that one closest, as it is probably the most widely accepted.  I'd hate to bring out a scripture and have someone discount it just because it is not their chosen flavor!

You know me!  I have no issues with any version personally!


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## farmasis (Sep 10, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> I'd agree with you on most of what you said except for the above. Some of the folks that you'd classify as "free-thinkers" know more about the Bible and Theology than those who would call themselves "Christians."


 
There is a world of difference in knowing the Bible as a book and knowing it as the Word of God.

I try to do both. I enjoy the scholarly aspect of religion, but I wouldn't put down a believer who holds to "I believe it because God said it" as not knowing the Bible as much as an atheist who studies it as a book. Especially one who studies it as a book in an effort to find error in it.


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## earl (Sep 10, 2009)

How can you intelligently discuss some thing that you don't understand and can only say ''just because''? There have been many debates about things in the bible,womens place,slavery ,killing,under law, grace , osas, etc.Half the time Christians can't agree on what the bible says, much less which version is true .
I would have to say an atheist very well may have a better understanding of what the bible says because they don't use emotion to interpret it.


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## THREEJAYS (Sep 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> There is a world of difference in knowing the Bible as a book and knowing it as the Word of God.
> 
> I try to do both. I enjoy the scholarly aspect of religion, but I wouldn't put down a believer who holds to "I believe it because God said it" as not knowing the Bible as much as an atheist who studies it as a book. Especially one who studies it as a book in an effort to find error in it.



Agreed.


boy was that a mouthfull


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## Ronnie T (Sep 10, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Every person on this board has a different opinion concerning spirituality.
> Every person here thinks they are mostly right.
> Some place their beliefs to the side to further a hearty debate.
> Most here would simply like for people to hear their opinions and respond in an honest manner.
> This applies to the 'Christians' and the non-religious.




Most, but not all.

.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 10, 2009)

Most of us know very well that there is one particular person who
frequents this forum just to play with us.  He is an atheist, proclaims himself so, and seldom has received an answer to a question that he didn't criticize.
He speaks of God as though the Almighty God is a figment of the imagination of a bunch of weak people who are afraid of life.

And I don't think of this person as a debater.


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## farmasis (Sep 10, 2009)

earl said:


> I would have to say an atheist very well may have a better understanding of what the bible says because they don't use emotion to interpret it.


 
Surely you agree the Bible is a spiritual book.

How can one aspiritiual interpret it?

Regardless of the differences Chrisitians have on topics, I feel they are closer than an atheist to understanding it.


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## WTM45 (Sep 10, 2009)

Ronnie T said:


> Most of us know very well that there is one particular person who
> frequents this forum just to play with us.  He is an atheist, proclaims himself so, and seldom has received an answer to a question that he didn't criticize.
> He speaks of God as though the Almighty God is a figment of the imagination of a bunch of weak people who are afraid of life.
> 
> And I don't think of this person as a debater.



Then place him on "Ignore" and be free of the discussion and debate with him.
Simple.
I suggest that for anyone who just can not communicate in this forum, on these topics with any member.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 10, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Then place him on "Ignore" and be free of the discussion and debate with him.
> Simple.
> I suggest that for anyone who just can not communicate in this forum, on these topics with any member.




He's already on my ignore list.


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## earl (Sep 10, 2009)

farmasis said:


> Surely you agree the Bible is a spiritual book.
> 
> How can one aspiritiual interpret it?
> 
> Regardless of the differences Chrisitians have on topics, I feel they are closer than an atheist to understanding it.



I would agree that it is a religious text. 
Pick any of the subjects I listed ,or one of your own.Then invite Pnome, Beenhuntin ,Diogenis and ,Israel to discuss them. Then see who has the better understanding of what the bible says . Just be sure to specify which bible you use.

Not to be a smart aleck ,but what did you mean to spell with aspiritiual ?


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## Diogenes (Sep 16, 2009)

“I've noticed a recurring trend on this forum. A (non) Christian will post something concerning (independent truth and empirically provable truth)  for the benefit of other (thinking people), and before long a (“Biblical literalist”) will show up and try to impart some (bully pulpit) wisdom on us poor sheltered fools. Why is that?

It's kind of like a bunch of guys standing around talking about (paleontology), having a nice time and then a couple members of (the Jehovah’s Witnesses) drop by just to let them know how (misguided they are for proving something can be more than 10,000 years old). You hypocrites do the same thing you accuse us of, going around trying to convert everybody . . .  Just wondering about that double standard.” 

Wow.  Huh?   Just an observation, but one needs only be ‘converted’ to a system of belief.  There is no real need to ‘convert’ anyone to the truth, since the truth is pretty comfortable just being itself, and cares not a fig for belief.  When virtually everyone on the planet ‘believed’ that the Earth was flat, the darned Earth persisted in not being flat, in direct defiance of the strength of that ‘belief.’  Silly Earth.  Lacked Faith, was all . . . 

If disagreement is such a bother, then why persist in the view that belief is truth simply because the belief is strongly held?  All of history testifies to ‘beliefs’ falling by the wayside as knowledge progressed, and nothing suggests that the quest for knowledge will somehow stop abruptly simply because a congregation waving an ancient book of parables insists that they have all the answers, and the rest of us had better knock it off, or else . . .

The realm of the ‘Spiritual,’ by definition, also includes viewpoints that range from voodoo to aliens and from karma to tree fairies, and is hardly limited to one book, one viewpoint, or one set of assumptions.  Some ‘believe.’  Others do not.  Why is this threatening?  Is your faith so fragile that it can brook no questioning?  Does your faith explain itself, or does it have a responsibility to make sense?  Do you seek to convert others to your way of thinking because your truths are clearly proven and beyond questioning?  Are you sure that your answer is the only answer?  Relax.  Huh?

Problems up for debate are just as they appear, and invite views.  If no views other than the strictly Biblical are allowed, then problems still arise, since even the biblical folks can’t agree.  How can that be?  Is it strictly a Family squabble, which nobody else can possibly understand?  And how does one resolve such a closed, narrow, and exclusive little society of thoughts with the view that America, the melting pot of all views, is to be defended?  Will you only fight for your own Christian sectarian viewpoint, or do we fight for the right for everyone to hold a view, even if you personally do not agree? 

This continuing complaint by some few here that dissent with them should not be allowed compares them unfavorably not only with a broad view of history but also with many of the ‘principles’ they may claim to uphold.  It might be remembered that the reason we, as Americans, have continued to fight and die all over the world has been to prevent the hegemony of a single viewpoint from ruling all.

So, again, “Just wondering about that double standard.”


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 16, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> Wow.  Huh?   Just an observation, but one needs only be ‘converted’ to a system of belief.  There is no real need to ‘convert’ anyone to the truth, since the truth is pretty comfortable just being itself, and cares not a fig for belief.  When virtually everyone on the planet ‘believed’ that the Earth was flat, the darned Earth persisted in not being flat, in direct defiance of the strength of that ‘belief.’  Silly Earth.  Lacked Faith, was all . . .



You know Columbus believed he was acting under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and used Isaiah 40:22 as one basis for his belief in a curved earth...


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## Carp (Sep 16, 2009)

It's a forum?


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## dawg2 (Sep 16, 2009)

pnome said:


> It's wrong for you to do it because you're wrong.
> 
> I find this cartoon is very applicable.  It's most everyone in this forum...



Even YOU


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## CRT (Sep 16, 2009)

Diogenes said:


> “I've noticed a recurring trend on this forum. A (non) Christian will post something concerning (independent truth and empirically provable truth)  for the benefit of other (thinking people), and before long a (“Biblical literalist”) will show up and try to impart some (bully pulpit) wisdom on us poor sheltered fools. Why is that?
> 
> It's kind of like a bunch of guys standing around talking about (paleontology), having a nice time and then a couple members of (the Jehovah’s Witnesses) drop by just to let them know how (misguided they are for proving something can be more than 10,000 years old). You hypocrites do the same thing you accuse us of, going around trying to convert everybody . . .  Just wondering about that double standard.”



Nice copy and paste job. Point made. I cannot disagree that this probably does happen, though it shouldn't. I don't think I have personally jumped on a "Free Thinker" thread and posted how everyone who believes that garbage is a wack job, but I'm sure there are those who do.



> Wow.  Huh?   Just an observation, but one needs only be ‘converted’ to a system of belief.  There is no real need to ‘convert’ anyone to the truth, since the truth is pretty comfortable just being itself, and cares not a fig for belief.  When virtually everyone on the planet ‘believed’ that the Earth was flat, the darned Earth persisted in not being flat, in direct defiance of the strength of that ‘belief.’  Silly Earth.  Lacked Faith, was all . . .
> 
> If disagreement is such a bother, then why persist in the view that belief is truth simply because the belief is strongly held?  All of history testifies to ‘beliefs’ falling by the wayside as knowledge progressed, and nothing suggests that the quest for knowledge will somehow stop abruptly simply because a congregation waving an ancient book of parables insists that they have all the answers, and the rest of us had better knock it off, or else . . .



I agree with you here too. I don't think belief is truth just because one strongly believes. But my faith is just like yours. I believe in God because I have experienced Him. I have seen Him work in my life. I've touched the fire and I know it's hot, no matter what anyone else says. I've tasted the apple and I know it's sweet. You don't believe because you haven't experienced Him. You have never tasted and seen that the Lord is good. I hope one day you will.



> The realm of the ‘Spiritual,’ by definition, also includes viewpoints that range from voodoo to aliens and from karma to tree fairies, and is hardly limited to one book, one viewpoint, or one set of assumptions.  Some ‘believe.’  Others do not.  Why is this threatening?  Is your faith so fragile that it can brook no questioning?  Does your faith explain itself, or does it have a responsibility to make sense?  Do you seek to convert others to your way of thinking because your truths are clearly proven and beyond questioning?  Are you sure that your answer is the only answer?  Relax.  Huh?



You're right here. I think the point of my original post was missed, but I do understand that this forum is not a "Christian" forum. I apologize, I originally posted out of emotion and shouldn't have.

The disagreements with Christianity are not threatening at all. You stated before, you can't change the truth. The truth is true no matter what any one believes. I seek to convert others because, first, I believe that God is worthy of every man worshipping Him, for He created us for that purpose. Secondly, I believe that if you die in your sin, you will spend eternity in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, punished by God's wrath forever. Shouldn't I be trying to witness to people so that they can flee the wrath to come?



> Problems up for debate are just as they appear, and invite views.  If no views other than the strictly Biblical are allowed, then problems still arise, since even the biblical folks can’t agree.  How can that be?  Is it strictly a Family squabble, which nobody else can possibly understand?  And how does one resolve such a closed, narrow, and exclusive little society of thoughts with the view that America, the melting pot of all views, is to be defended?  Will you only fight for your own Christian sectarian viewpoint, or do we fight for the right for everyone to hold a view, even if you personally do not agree?



Again, I understand your point here, but I believe my original post had nothing to do with this. And again, I see my error for this isn't a "Christian" forum.



> This continuing complaint by some few here that dissent with them should not be allowed compares them unfavorably not only with a broad view of history but also with many of the ‘principles’ they may claim to uphold.  It might be remembered that the reason we, as Americans, have continued to fight and die all over the world has been to prevent the hegemony of a single viewpoint from ruling all.
> 
> So, again, “Just wondering about that double standard.”



I guess this is what I should have posted, but out of anger, didn't: Those (whether "Christian" or "Free-Thinker") who see an entire thread dealing with a topic discussed by those who they disagree with (like unconditional grace), but still pipe in with their .02, are just there to argue. This is the Spiritual Discussion, Debate, and Study forum and "debate" is only one-third of it. It should be a place where a group who agrees with each other on the main things (God exists or God doesn't exist) can come and discuss or study the other things (unconditional grace, evolution). Then some of the time we can debate each other on our difference. 

I still don't think I'm communicating this very well, but hopefully you guys get the point.

Hope all you guys have a great day.


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## pnome (Sep 16, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> I believe that God is worthy of every man worshipping Him, for He created us for that purpose.




That's an interesting statement.  So, all of this universe we see around us, was created for us, and for but one purpose...So that God would have someone to worship him.  

Seems, megalomaniacal doesn't it?


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## dawg2 (Sep 16, 2009)

pnome said:


> That's an interesting statement.  So, all of this universe we see around us, was created for us, and for but one purpose...So that God would have someone to worship him.
> 
> Seems, megalomaniacal doesn't it?



You have kids don't you


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2009)

pnome said:


> That's an interesting statement.  So, all of this universe we see around us, was created for us, and for but one purpose...So that God would have someone to worship him.
> 
> Seems, megalomaniacal doesn't it?



Your statement is mostly correct.

Here it is corrected.

So, all of this universe we see around us, was created for God, and for but one purpose...So that God would have someone to worship him.


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## CRT (Sep 16, 2009)

Pnome,

That's a fair question. It would seem meglomaniacal if God were just like us. But because God is infinitely good (although I know you don't agree with that) that is the most loving thing He can do for us. See when we want glory for ourselves, it is at the expense of others. But when God gets glory for Himself, those who give Him glory get blessed.


Now, I know you will pick that apart (you probably had your rebuttal prepared before you typed the question), and honestly I don't completely understand it. I trust it because God is good and not evil. John Piper does a much better job at explaining it. If I thought that were an honest question, I'd search for the exact message, but I know you're just looking for an argument so I'm not.

Peace.


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## CRT (Sep 16, 2009)

Thanks RJ, I missed that error in pnome's statement.


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## Six million dollar ham (Sep 16, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> I've noticed a reacurring trend on this forum. A Christian will post something concerning Christianity for the benefit of other Christians, and before long a "free thinker" will show up and try to impart some worldy wisdom on us poor sheltered fools. Why is that?
> 
> It's kind of like a bunch of guys standing around talking about hunting/fishing, having a nice time and then a couple members of PETA drop by just to let them know how barbaric and uncivilized they are for killing poor animals. You hypocrites do the same thing you accuse us of, going around trying to convert everybody. I can't speak for the other Christians on this board, but I don't go around to the "skeptic/free thinker" forums and jump in trying to prove this or that. Just wondering about that double standard.
> 
> ...



Sometimes this forum is like a chicken truck turning over on the highway and bursting into flames.  I don't want it to happen, but if it does, I want to be there to catch it.  

At any rate, your post to kick off this thread is a great example of why I enjoy reading.  People get frustrated on here because they don't expect the debate aspect of this forum.  There seem to be stages believers go through here.  You're at the first one.  Later they tend challenge and overwhelm, and then later still they agree to disagree or place the ones with whom they disagree on the ignore list.  The latter option tends to be exercised by what I'd consider fanatics.


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## pnome (Sep 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Your statement is mostly correct.
> 
> Here it is corrected.
> 
> So, all of this universe we see around us, was created for God, and for but one purpose...So that God would have someone to worship him.




So, what does God need a universe for?


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## pnome (Sep 16, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> But because God is infinitely good (although I know you don't agree with that)



That's a subject for whole 'nother thread. 



> that is the most loving thing He can do for us. See when we want glory for ourselves, it is at the expense of others. But when God gets glory for Himself, those who give Him glory get blessed.



So, it's a quid pro quo arrangement?  God wants "Glory" and when we give it to him, he gives us a present.  




> Now, I know you will pick that apart (you probably had your rebuttal prepared before you typed the question)



I always have a selection of possible rebuttals ready. 



> John Piper does a much better job at explaining it. If I thought that were an honest question, I'd search for the exact message, but I know you're just looking for an argument so I'm not.



I'd like to hear how John Piper explains it, but I don't expect it will be a revelation.  

It seems a question of "meaning."  

One of the most often used excuses for religion is that it's good because it gives us "meaning."  If all there is to the "meaning" of the Universe, the answer to the question "why are we here?" is: "To worship God", well then that only begs the question: Why does God need people to worship him?  What does God need "Glory" for?


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## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2009)

pnome said:


> So, what does God need a universe for?





pnome said:


> Why does God need people to worship him?  What does God need "Glory" for?




Remember Pnome.....God needs nothing.  He wants our praise...He deserves our praise.


Think of it this way....bad analogy...I'm sure, but the best I can come up with.

You shoot a huge deer.  You post its picture here on Woody's.  You deserve the praise as you shot it.  People shower you with compliments.  

Did you need to post the picture?  Was it satisfying?


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## pnome (Sep 16, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Remember Pnome.....God needs nothing.  He wants our praise...He deserves our praise.
> 
> 
> Think of it this way....bad analogy...I'm sure, but the best I can come up with.
> ...



I'll accept that an omnipotent deity will never actually "need" anything.  

I could understand if God had peers, whom he wished to impress with his universe creation skills.  But we are not his peers.  We are his creation itself.  It would be like me building a sand castle so that I could get praise from the sand castle.

I think the truth is: religions need worshipers.   Without them, they are but myths and superstitions.


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## CRT (Sep 16, 2009)

What RJ said.

A real question for the "free-thinkers". What is your motivation for coming on here attempting to convert believers? I don't believe it is to free us from the bondage of superstition and help us to have a better life. I think it is so you can give glory to your god - your intellect. Then all the world will see what a smart person you are.


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## pnome (Sep 16, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> I don't believe it is to free us from the bondage of superstition and help us to have a better life.



You don't have to believe it if you don't want to.  But that is why I post in this forum.

I view religion as evil, perniciously evil.   It warps your morals, even as it tries to take credit for them.


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## CRT (Sep 16, 2009)

> even as it tries to take credit for them.



Isn't that what is at the root? Christianity teaches that we have no virtue in and of ourselves and that only God is good. That is why men hate it. We love the darkness and hate the light.

Religion by itself is evil. It's what leads men to steal, rape and murder in the name of "God" while forcing people to "convert or die" (as if that would really work). Many evils have been done throughout history in the name of religion (even Christianity), but God wasn't in that. 

If I had only the witness of most of the people in America who profess themselves to be Christians and these TV preachers, I'd be an atheist. Fortunately, not only has God changed me from what I was, but He has allowed me to see, hear, and know true Christians who do love Him and obey His Word and aren't out for the next dollar.

Here is what's true: if God is real, only He can convince you (I can't). If He is omnipotent then He is able to convince you if He chooses to do so (see Paul), but He's also not obligated to. He can therefore, give you over to your unrighteousness and let you die in your sin and experience His wrath forever. He is completely justified in doing so because He bears the rights over your life because He gave you life. And you are guilty for your sins against Him. I pray He will convince you.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 16, 2009)

I think religion is evil as well. 
Jesus did not come to bring religion. 
He never told us how to have church on sundays. 
He came so we can have a relationship with God. 
Give me an example of a moral Jesus taught that you, personally, find evil.


----------



## WTM45 (Sep 16, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> It should be a place where a group who agrees with each other on the main things (God exists or God doesn't exist) can come and discuss or study the other things (unconditional grace, evolution). Then some of the time we can debate each other on our difference.



That would be a totally exclusive forum, only inclusive of those believing in a mutually shared definition of "God."


----------



## CRT (Sep 16, 2009)

You still missed the point. Sorry.

Maybe this will be better. If you see a thread called "Unconditional Grace" and upon reading the first 5 or so threads, see that those silly Christians are discussing whether or not grace is unconditional, then as an atheist, who doesn't even believe a God exists, much less that He bestows grace upon anyone, you would be being rude and just trying to start crap if you butt in with a comment. That conversation has no place for you. They're not wondering if there is a God, or if we came from monkies, or why "In God We Trust" should be taken off the money.

In the same respect, if I see a thread called "Aren't You Glad We Evolved from Apes" and upon reading the first five or so post see that its a bunch of atheist discussing how they are so glad they came from monkies, if I were to post something about them being created by God, I would be being rude and just trying to start some crap. 

Now if there is a thread titled "God: Fact or Fiction" then it's open season.

Does that make a little more sense. Discussion or Debate or Study. Not Dicuss and Debate, or Debate and Debate, or Study and Debate.


----------



## WTM45 (Sep 16, 2009)

I'm with you 5pointCal.  But everyone who is a member here has the equal right to express their thoughts on any subject.
If they are on your "Ignore" list, there will not be a bump in your reading.

Attempts are made to prevent a thread from getting derailed or so sidetracked they are no longer recoverable.
And anyone who is blanket spamming or attempting to cause major disruption will be addressed by the staff.

But an agree/disagree stance and even a stance completely ignorant of the subject matter is allowed as each has a right to participate.


----------



## earl (Sep 16, 2009)

And then there is the unfortunate choice made by cornelia and cracker dave.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 16, 2009)

earl said:


> And then there is the unfortunate choice made by cornelia and cracker dave.



Which is...?


----------



## WTM45 (Sep 16, 2009)

Earl, those who make the choice not to participate at all can not put any blame on anyone other than who they see in their mirror every morning.

Freedom of choice.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 16, 2009)

pnome said:


> I'll accept that an omnipotent deity will never actually "need" anything.
> 
> I could understand if God had peers, whom he wished to impress with his universe creation skills.  But we are not his peers.  We are his creation itself.  It would be like me building a sand castle so that I could get praise from the sand castle.



No...bad analogy as the sand castle has no mental ability and can't respond.  It is like you conceiving a child and receiving love and respect from the child.  It is extremely rewarding when that child gives it to you (as you deserve it) and is extremely dissatisfying if they rebel.




5pointCal said:


> Here is what's true: if God is real, only He can convince you (I can't). If He is omnipotent then He is able to convince you if He chooses to do so (see Paul), but He's also not obligated to. He can therefore, give you over to your unrighteousness and let you die in your sin and experience His wrath forever. He is completely justified in doing so because He bears the rights over your life because He gave you life. And you are guilty for your sins against Him. I pray He will convince you.



Well said.  Well said.


----------



## earl (Sep 16, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> Earl, those who make the choice not to participate at all can not put any blame on anyone other than who they see in their mirror every morning.
> 
> Freedom of choice.



That is why I used unfortunate. It was a self inflicted choice. By not being able to abide by the rules of the forum , they backed theirselves into a corner.
 Rather than complain that ALL are given equal time here and trying to change the forum ,perhaps they should have read the rules when they joined. Isn't this the same complaint that helped get the forum temporarily closed ?
 You have given several alternatives that fall within the guide lines and rules. You have a lot more patience than I .


----------



## WTM45 (Sep 16, 2009)

earl said:


> That is why I used unfortunate. It was a self inflicted choice. By not being able to abide by the rules of the forum , they backed theirselves into a corner.
> Rather than complain that ALL are given equal time here and trying to change the forum ,perhaps they should have read the rules when they joined. Isn't this the same complaint that helped get the forum temporarily closed ?
> You have given several alternatives that fall within the guide lines and rules. You have a lot more patience than I .



And that is where we find ourselves today.  We should keep looking forward, and not backward.
Ever mindful of others as being as important as ourselves, and striving to be ever respectful of each other's views.  No, we don't have to always agree nor do we have to change our own opinions.


----------



## earl (Sep 16, 2009)

WTM45 said:


> And that is where we find ourselves today.  We should keep looking forward, and not backward.
> Ever mindful of others as being as important as ourselves, and striving to be ever respectful of each other's views.  No, we don't have to always agree nor do we have to change our own opinions.


----------



## pnome (Sep 17, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Isn't that what is at the root? Christianity teaches that we have no virtue in and of ourselves and that only God is good. That is why men hate it. We love the darkness and hate the light.



I don't "love the darkness."    



> Religion by itself is evil. It's what leads men to steal, rape and murder in the name of "God" while forcing people to "convert or die" (as if that would really work). Many evils have been done throughout history in the name of religion (even Christianity), but God wasn't in that.




You're right.  God wasn't in that.  Just people invoking his name to serve their own purposes.  As it has ever been.




> Here is what's true: if God is real, only He can convince you (I can't). If He is omnipotent then He is able to convince you if He chooses to do so (see Paul), but He's also not obligated to. He can therefore, give you over to your unrighteousness and let you die in your sin and experience His wrath forever. He is completely justified in doing so because He bears the rights over your life because He gave you life. And you are guilty for your sins against Him. I pray He will convince you.



You're right in that personal experience would convince me.   

But I really don't think I'm "unrighteous."  Understand, I'm not saying I'm perfect.  I've made mistakes. But I certainly don't feel any guilt over my non-belief.  If God wants to hold me, in some way, responsible for that, then he's not any kind of god that I could serve.  And he certainly isn't "good."


----------



## pnome (Sep 17, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> I think religion is evil as well.
> Jesus did not come to bring religion.
> He never told us how to have church on sundays.
> He came so we can have a relationship with God.
> Give me an example of a moral Jesus taught that you, personally, find evil.




My only issue with Jesus is his claim to divinity.  At least, that I can think of.


----------



## CRT (Sep 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> I don't "love the darkness."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your statements prove that what scripture says about you is true.


----------



## CRT (Sep 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> My only issue with Jesus is his claim to divinity.  At least, that I can think of.




That's what everybody's issue with Jesus was/is.


----------



## pnome (Sep 17, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Your statements prove that what scripture says about you is true.



And what, exactly, is that?


----------



## wholenotem (Sep 17, 2009)

earl said:


> Right after sacrificing small children, the devil makes me come here.



I thought that was a Christians excuse for things. "The devil made me do it"


----------



## pfharris1965 (Sep 17, 2009)

*...*



ddd-shooter said:


> I think religion is evil as well.
> Jesus did not come to bring religion.
> He never told us how to have church on sundays.
> He came so we can have a relationship with God.
> Give me an example of a moral Jesus taught that you, personally, find evil.


 
+1


----------



## CRT (Sep 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> And what, exactly, is that?



Read the book and find out. 




			
				wholenotem said:
			
		

> I thought that was a Christians excuse for things. "The devil made me do it"



Ha, ha. Love the jab. So much for Discussion, Debate, and Study!


----------



## Israel (Sep 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> I don't "love the darkness."
> 
> 
> 
> ...




OK, the truth is he doesn't hold you responsible for anything, he doesn't hold you responsible for your mistakes, your unbelief, your failings to be whatever in your heart has caused you to see the discrepancy between what you know is the "best"...and your inability to always meet its standard. he has released you from that by pouring his wrath out on Jesus, he put all the "blame" on Jesus, who willingly took it, and released you with these words "Forgive them Father for they do not know what they are doing"...
God has already purposed in and through Christ to give you a crown of life, and has, in the unqualified love he has for you, set you free to choose...and you will get only what you, yourself, purpose to receive.
If you are the man who believes "I see all things clearly, know always and am fully able to approve that which is good and excellent"...then obviously you are not the man to whom Jesus extends his mercy, as the man who understands he often does what he does not know he is doing.
But that also makes you a liar, for if you do truly see your own "mistakes" (as you call them) see those things you have done that you would have done differently had you only had the benefit of "seeing" all the consequences... had the benefit of knowing the end from the beginning, had the full knowledge of God to see all clearly...and still hold no need of that mercy...then in a real sense you are denying you have ever made a mistake.
I do not believe, cannot believe, you are intentionally "evil", just a man, who like me didn't know the inconceivable pain I caused (and the evil I "mistakenly" embraced) the Prince of peace when he told me, I love you...trust me...and I said in my heart..."I don't believe you".


----------



## earl (Sep 17, 2009)

wholenotem said:


> I thought that was a Christians excuse for things. "The devil made me do it"





YOU are correct . It's hard to get rid of old, bad habits.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> My only issue with Jesus is his claim to divinity.  At least, that I can think of.



If I didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, I would use my logical, reasoning mind to assert that he was a paranoid schizophrenic and discount his teachings as crazy talk. 

Thank the Lord I don't!!


----------



## pnome (Sep 17, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> If I didn't believe in the divinity of Christ, I would use my logical, reasoning mind to assert that he was a paranoid schizophrenic and discount his teachings as crazy talk.



That would be a mistake on your part. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forbes_Nash,_Jr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salvador_Dalí

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton

Etc...  

History is replete with men and women of genius who were not the picture of good mental health.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 17, 2009)

Touche. 
Although it would not be wise if I based my entire world-view on the teachings of such a man. Math formulas are one thing, spiritual well-being is another.


----------



## pnome (Sep 17, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Although it would not be wise if I based my entire world-view on the teachings of such a man.



You said it. Not me.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 17, 2009)

pnome said:


> You said it. Not me.



I agree. If he was not the son of God, he was a nut and not worth following. 


Too bad he IS. 

Pnome, how do you rectify the martyrdom of all the early disciples? As in, why die for someone you know to be a lie?


----------



## pnome (Sep 17, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> Pnome, how do you rectify the martyrdom of all the early disciples? As in, why die for someone you know to be a lie?



Who says they didn't believe it?   Everything indicates that they all believed it fully and with every fiber of their beings.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 17, 2009)

So do you dispute their ability to discern spiritual matters? 
Were they just fooled?
My point is, they believed it strongly and died for that belief. They had first-hand knowledge and encounters with Jesus. 
Sounds to me like their experience ought to make a strong statement to those who do not believe.


----------



## Diogenes (Sep 18, 2009)

Rjcruiser: “So, all of this universe we see around us, was created for God, and for but one purpose...So that God would have someone to worship him.”

Um?  I thought the idea that is held is that the universe was created by God, not for God?  But either way, if it was created, as you say, by whomever, so that God would have someone to worship him, isn’t that making exactly the point you argue against?  And not to be rude, but if all God wanted was to be worshipped, wouldn’t he have exclusively created beings that obey that desire?  How did he miss that aim so badly that only a minority of folks got the point?  

Then states, “God needs nothing. He wants our praise...He deserves our praise.”  But, again, how can God want?  

Then! “It is extremely rewarding when that child gives it to you (as you deserve it) and is extremely dissatisfying if they rebel.”  Now, if I understand this right, I have a perfect right to cast my children (my creation) into a gruesome eternal torment if they disobey my need to be worshipped and obeyed and respected . . . ????   Rather a dysfunctional parent, this God, wouldn’t you think?

Ddd-shooter states:  “Although it would not be wise if I based my entire world-view on the teachings of such a man. Math formulas are one thing, spiritual well-being is another.”  And spiritual well-being , by implication, is best placed in the hands of an invisible ‘Living’ being who ‘Died,’ but didn’t really, and who never actually wrote a single word?  One whose ‘teachings’ were never recorded contemporaneously, but were ‘recalled’ out of oral history and written hundreds of years later?  Heck, I don’t even believe a week-old story out of the local gin-mill, let alone a story that was a few hundred years old before anyone even thought to write it down.  So it is wise to place your ‘spiritual well being’ entirely in the hands of stories that were later told about someone who so annoyed the authorities of his time that they executed him?  Wow.

Then elaborates: “My point is, they believed it strongly and died for that belief. They had first-hand knowledge and encounters with Jesus. 
Sounds to me like their experience ought to make a strong statement to those who do not believe.”  Sorry there, but nobody with ‘first-hand’ experiences are known to have ever written a thing, unless one believes that folks lived a few hundred years back then, and it is also one of the articles of faith that Jesus drew his ‘Disciples’ from among the most illiterate of the common folk, and from the most common of common folk.  If it can be demonstrated that anyone contemporaneous died for their beliefs, then modern day suicide bombers also die for theirs – that fact alone does not assume them to be correct in those beliefs.  

Holding a belief strongly enough to die for it is hardly a demonstration of righteousness.  History is filled with fools who fought and died for wrong-headed ideas.

To the OP, 5pointCal states: “The truth is true no matter what any one believes. I seek to convert others because, first, I believe that God is worthy of every man worshipping Him, for He created us for that purpose. Secondly, I believe that if you die in your sin, you will spend eternity in Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----, punished by God's wrath forever. Shouldn't I be trying to witness to people so that they can flee the wrath to come?”

And so, sir, you answer your own question.  You believe that your truth is true no matter what, and seek to convert others because you see it as your duty to spread your truth (belief) to save all of us from the ‘wrath’ that your belief seems to think it wields.  Your ‘truth’ is singular, and is your own, holding no space for any dissent.  Small wonder that a few of us, faced with you and only you being correct and in possession of the ‘truth,’ and faced with some rather unpleasant consequences you threaten us with if we disagree, might have a few questions . . .

So why are the questions such a bother if the ‘truth’ is so clear?  And if I am encouraged to ‘flee the wrath to come,’ where would I flee to?  Can your church hold the four and half billion or so people who need to flee to your personal sanctuary?


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> So do you dispute their ability to discern spiritual matters?



I dispute the existence of spiritual matters.

People who believe something strongly, and die for that belief are not extraordinary.  People who are direct descendants of the creator of heaven and earth, are.  It's the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 18, 2009)

pnome said:


> I dispute the existence of spiritual matters.
> 
> People who believe something strongly, and die for that belief are not extraordinary.  People who are direct descendants of the creator of heaven and earth, are.  It's the extraordinary claim that requires extraordinary evidence.



Didn't Christ give that extraordinary evidence?

What more do you want...the man came back from the dead?


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Didn't Christ give that extraordinary evidence?
> 
> What more do you want...the man came back from the dead?




The claim that he came back from the dead is itself an extraordinary claim, requiring extraordinary evidence. 

Words in a book are not enough.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 18, 2009)

pnome said:


> Words in a book are not enough.



Okay...then how do you believe other historical events


Here's an article...lengthy yes...but would be a good read for you

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Okay...then how do you believe other historical events





Which ones?

Let's take the Trojan war as an example.  

Do I believe that a war was fought between Greece and Troy?  Yes.  We have not only historical references, but even some archeological evidence.

Do I believe that the Greeks were led by a king named Agamemnon?  Yes.  Homer's Iliad is all the evidence I need for this.

Do I believe that Troy fell after 10 years of fighting.  Sounds perfectly plausible.  Iliad is all that is needed to convince me. 

Do I believe that the Greeks tricked the Trojans with a large wooden horse?  Yup.

Do I believe that Achilles was the son of the Goddess Thetis?  Nope. Do you?

Do I believe that Sarpedon was a son of Zeus?  Nope. Do you?

Do I believe that Aphrodite whisked Paris away from death in a cloud of mist?  Nope. Do you?


----------



## CRT (Sep 18, 2009)

So what about the scientific, historical, and archeological evidence that are contained in the Bible, along with the 300+ prophecies fulfilled in Jesus' life alone?


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> So what about the scientific, historical, and archeological evidence that are contained in the Bible, along with the 300+ prophecies fulfilled in Jesus' life alone?




I didn't say I don't believe anything in the Bible.  All those parts where "Gods Chosen People" were running around the middle east slaughtering anyone who happened to be living on their "Promised Land" are no doubt true.  At least as respects the slaughtering.

300+ prophecies fulfilled you say?  Are you talking about biblical prophecies that were then fulfilled in another part of the bible?


----------



## CRT (Sep 18, 2009)

pnome said:


> I didn't say I don't believe anything in the Bible.  All those parts where "Gods Chosen People" were running around the middle east slaughtering anyone who happened to be living on their "Promised Land" are no doubt true.  At least as respects the slaughtering.



Scripture proves itself once again.



> 300+ prophecies fulfilled you say?  Are you talking about biblical prophecies that were then fulfilled in another part of the bible?



Yea, isn't that amazing. A fellow wrote a bunch of poems (called Psalms) and then 800 to 1000 years later many things he wrote came true to the letter. And how about those crazy prophets Isaiah, Zacariah, and Jeremiah. They prophesied specific details about the coming Messiah. Then hundreds of years later those prophesies came true to the letter. What's better than that, is those actual historical events that happen were even written about by people who didn't even believe He was the Messiah.

Again, Scripture is fulfilled.

"For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. _And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed._ But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God." 
(John 3:17-21)_emphasis mine_


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Scripture proves itself once again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So, you are saying, that the Bible proves that the Bible is true?

Do you see anything wrong with that statement?


----------



## CRT (Sep 18, 2009)

The old circular reasoning argument. How wearisome. 

As does history, archeology, science, and fulfilled prophesies. (But we'll just ignore those and go back to the circular reasoning argument  )


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> The old circular reasoning argument. How wearisome.
> 
> As does history, archeology, science, and fulfilled prophesies. (But we'll just ignore those and go back to the circular reasoning argument  )



It seems we can agree that your argument that biblical prophesies prove the bible true is circular.  

Agreement!


----------



## CRT (Sep 18, 2009)

Ah, so how do you explain that secular historians also recorded the actual events that were prophesied hundreds of years before hand. How is that circular reasoning. The Bible states historical facts about Jesus' life that were prophetical, just as it states other historical facts that have been tested and found true throughout the ages. 

I'm impressed. It truly does take more faith to be an atheist. And it's definitely easier to argue like one because you can claim to only believe concrete evidence and then ignore it at will.

I've tarried with this folly long enough. Good day.


----------



## ddd-shooter (Sep 18, 2009)

The New Testament is at least as reliable as the Iliad as far as historical documentation and consistency. 
Archaelogical evidence shows Jesus was a person...


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The New Testament is at least as reliable as the Iliad as far as historical documentation and consistency.
> Archaelogical evidence shows Jesus was a person...



The claim that there was a man who taught and preached and had a following in ancient Judea and was crucified is not extraordinary.  

I certainly believe Jesus was a person.  _A person._


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> Ah, so how do you explain that secular historians also recorded the actual events that were prophesied hundreds of years before hand. How is that circular reasoning.



Can you provide some examples?  



> The Bible states historical facts about Jesus' life



No doubt, there are some real facts contained in the NT.



> that were prophetical,



Not likely.  



> I'm impressed. It truly does take more faith to be an atheist.



No, it takes a distinct lack of faith. 




> And it's definitely easier to argue like one because you can claim to only believe concrete evidence and then ignore it at will.



What concrete evidence did you offer again?  I must have missed it.



> I've tarried with this folly long enough. Good day.



Aww, stick around!  We were just getting started!


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 18, 2009)

pnome said:


> Can you provide some examples?



What about Herod killing Jewish Male babies under the age of two?


----------



## gtparts (Sep 18, 2009)

pnome said:


> It seems we can agree that your argument that biblical prophesies prove the bible true is circular.
> 
> Agreement!



You conveniently ignore the fact that the writings were entirely independent of each other as to time and the individuals who actually recorded the information that was LATER codified into the Bible. Just how does this illustrate a circular argument? The codification was due, in part, to the unique alignment of 300+ prophesies and their fulfillment hundreds of years later.

If someone had documented, say, 50 events 100 years ago as prophetic events ( as yet to occur at some future date) and all 50 were confirmed by someone else to have happened (as previously recorded) in the last two weeks, would you attribute this to coincidence?

If not, why do you have such a problem with 300+ markers dated as early as 1600 years before Jesus walked the earth, which are all attributed to the unique individual known as Jesus of Nazareth?

Statistically speaking, the odds of anyone doing this (actually meeting the requirements so as to conform to 300+ prophesies) is astronomical.  And yet, He did!!

Use some of that unbiased logic to explain this rather than clutching at some excuse for how it just couldn't be the advent of God coming to Earth in the flesh.


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

gtparts said:


> Statistically speaking, the odds of anyone doing this (actually meeting the requirements so as to conform to 300+ prophesies) is astronomical.  And yet, He did!!



Astronomical is right.   Let me posit a more likely scenario..

The people who wrote the new testament were surely aware of these prophecies.  I think it's much more likely that the story of Jesus was told in such a way as to make sure they were fulfilled.


----------



## pnome (Sep 18, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> What about Herod killing Jewish Male babies under the age of two?




Can you provide the prophecy that this fulfilled?


----------



## gtparts (Sep 18, 2009)

ddd-shooter said:


> The New Testament is at least as reliable as the Iliad as far as historical documentation and consistency.
> Archaelogical evidence shows Jesus was a person...




Actually, the Bible is far more reliable. There are approx. 640 ancient copies of the Iliad extant today, the earliest of which is dated several hundred years later than the events themselves. Over 5600 ancient Biblical manuscripts in Greek are known to exist today.

Hmmmmm? 
Iliad = 643   
Biblical manuscripts in Greek, just Greek = 5600

There are more than 20,000 ancient New Testament manuscripts, the earliest of which most all credible Bible scholars date to 130 to 150 years A.D. This is a mere 60 to 80 yrs after the original manuscripts were penned. The originals were written by Jesus' contemporaries. The accuracy of transmission has proven to be near perfect in the repeated process of copying from an earlier manuscript to a newer copy. 

Reliable? It's the most reliable ancient document in the world.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> Can you provide the prophecy that this fulfilled?



Several OT prophecies point to this...and the fact that Joseph, Mary and Jesus went to Egypt to escape the killings.

Jer 31:15 "A voice is heard in Rama, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."   (625 BC)


Also, 


Hosea 11:1  "When Israel was  achild, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son."  (725 B.C.)


----------



## pnome (Sep 21, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> Several OT prophecies point to this...and the fact that Joseph, Mary and Jesus went to Egypt to escape the killings.
> 
> Jer 31:15 "A voice is heard in Rama, mourning and great weeping, Rachel weeping for her children and refusing to be comforted, because her children are no more."   (625 BC)
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.


----------



## rjcruiser (Sep 21, 2009)

pnome said:


> I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.





Didn't think you would....but figured I'd give them to you.


----------



## Lowjack (Sep 21, 2009)

I'm Not A Free thinker, if you want me to think you have to pay me.


----------



## gordon 2 (Sep 21, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> I'm Not A Free thinker, if you want me to think you have to pay me.



Do you have a resume.

Tell me Moshé, is Ireal a fatherland or a motherland or do names have gender in yedish....


----------



## Lowjack (Sep 21, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> Do you have a resume.
> 
> Tell me Moshé, is Ireal a fatherland or a motherland or do names have gender in yedish....


The Bible depicts Israel as a woman merried to YHVH, I thought you knew that Bubba


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2009)

Lowjack said:


> The Bible depicts Israel as a woman merried to YHVH, I thought you knew that Bubba



No I did not. I though the christian church was the bride. However do nouns take on a gender in yedish?


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## Lowjack (Sep 22, 2009)

gordon 2 said:


> No I did not. I though the christian church was the bride. However do nouns take on a gender in yedish?



I don't speak Giddish much I speak Ladino Hebrew, If YOu believe in replacement theology, but YHVH is Israel's husband.

Isaiah 54 - The Restoration of Israel, the Wife of the Lord


“Try and suck all the sweetness that you can out of this chapter while we read it. The personal application of a promise to the heart by the Holy Spirit is that which is wanted. The honey in Jonathan’s wood never enlightened his eyes until he dipped the point of his rod into it and tasted it. Try and do the same. This chapter is the wood wherein every bough doth drip with virgin honey. Sip: taste, and be satisfied.” (Spurgeon)



A. The Lord speaks to Israel as His wife.



1. (1-3) Israel will be restored like a barren woman who bears many children.



“Sing, O barren, you who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, you who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord. “Enlarge the place of your tent, and let them stretch out the curtains of your dwellings; do not spare; lengthen your cords, and strengthen your stakes. For you shall expand to the right and to the left, and your descendants will inherit the nations, and make the desolate cities inhabited.”



a. Sing, O barren, you who have not borne: In ancient Israel, the barren woman carried an enormous load of shame and disgrace. Here, the Lord likens captive Israel to a barren woman who can now sing - because now more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married woman.



i. The Babylonian exile and captivity meant more than oppression for Israel; it meant shame, disgrace, and humiliation. God promises a glorious release from not only the exile and captivity, but also from the shame, disgrace, and humiliation.



ii. This passage is quoted by the Apostle Paul in Galatians 4:27, in reference to the miraculous “birth” of those under the New Covenant. Paul also probably intended the phrase more are the children to also indicate that the children of the New Covenant would outnumber the children of the Old Covenant.



b. Enlarge the place of your tent: The curse and shame of barrenness would be so completely broken, and Israel would be so fruitful, that they would have to expand their living space. This would be of particular comfort to the returning Babylonian exiles, who felt themselves small in number and weak. This promise would strengthen them.



2. (4-6) Israel will be restored like a widow who is rescued from her reproach.



“Do not fear, for you will not be ashamed; neither be disgraced, for you will not be put to shame; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore. For your Maker is your husband, the Lord of hosts is His name; and your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth. For the Lord has called you like a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, like a youthful wife when you were refused,” says your God.



a. And will not remember the reproach of your widowhood anymore: Just as God compared the disgrace of Israel to the shame of barrenness, now He compares their humiliation to the reproach of widowhood. Here, the Lord promises rescue from Israel’s shame.



i. “Shame . . . disgrace . . . humiliated represent three synonymous Hebrew verbs sharing the fundamental idea of disappointed hopes, the embarrassment of expecting - even publicly announcing - one thing and then reaping another.” (Motyer)



b. For your Maker is your husband: Though Israel might have been regarded as forsaken as a widow, the Lord promises to stand in the place of her husband.



i. Through the centuries, many a hurting woman has taken this promise for herself. Forsaken by a husband, or forsaken of a husband, they have found beautiful comfort in the promise that God would be a husband to them, when all others forsook them. The principle is true; God will supply and meet our emotional needs, and rescue us from our disgrace and shame, when others forsaken us.



c. The Lord of hosts is His name: To comfort and strengthen His people, God reminds them of how glorious of a Savior He is. He is their Maker, He is the Lord of hosts, He is their Redeemer, He is the Holy One of Israel, and He is called the God of the whole earth. Not only does God supply a husband, but a great one - Himself!



i. The promise that the Lord will meet our needs when others forsake us does not leave us to a place of “second best.” The Lord God can be a greater husband than any man can be. This is something for every single woman to remember; and something no married woman should forget. An earthly husband can never fulfill every need that the great Heavenly Husband can.



3. (7-8) God explains His restoration of Israel.



“For a mere moment I have forsaken you, but with great mercies I will gather you. With a little wrath I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you,” says the Lord, your Redeemer.



a. For a mere moment I have forsaken you: God never really forsook Israel; yet He recognizes that they felt forsaken. God says, “for a mere moment I allowed you to feel that I have forsaken you.”



b. But with great mercies I will gather you: The forsaken is in the present tense; the great mercies are in the future tense. But they are real, and give Israel cause to set their hope and trust in the Lord, though they feel forsaken at the moment.



c. I hid My face from you for a moment; but with everlasting kindness I will have mercy on you: The contrast is between the moment of feeling forsaken and the everlasting nature of the kindness that will come. When we feel tried and forsaken, we should recognize that it is just for a moment, and the everlasting blessing will certainly come.



B. Comfort and assurance to restored Israel.



1. (9-10) A promise to never forsake Israel.



“For this is like the waters of Noah to Me; for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah would no longer cover the earth, so have I sworn that I would not be angry with you, nor rebuke you. For the mountains shall depart and the hills be removed, but My kindness shall not depart from you, nor shall My covenant of peace be removed,” says the Lord, who has mercy on you.



a. For this is like the waters of Noah to Me: Just as God promised that the flood waters of Noah’s day would not cover the earth forever, so will His anger recede from Israel.



b. For the mountains shall depart . . . but My kindness shall not depart from you: Flood waters recede, and mountains do not. But even if the mountains shall depart, even if the hills be removed, the kindness of the Lord to His people will never depart. The kindness of the Lord is more certain than the mountains and the hills, and His covenant of peace is more sure.



2. (11-17) Promises of prosperity, peace, and protection.



“O you afflicted one, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems, and lay your foundations with sapphires. I will make your pinnacles of rubies, your gates of crystal, and all your walls of precious stones. All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children. In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you. Indeed they shall surely assemble, but not because of Me. Whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake. Behold, I have created the blacksmith who blows the coals in the fire, who brings forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the spoiler to destroy. No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is from Me,” says the Lord.



a. To you afflicted one, tossed with tempest and not comforted: God cares about the afflicted one. He cares about the one tossed with tempest. He cares about the one who is not comforted. When someone is in this place - afflicted, tossed, and not comforted - it is easy for them to believe God doesn’t care. But He does, and He gives precious promises to give strength.



b. Behold, I will lay your stones with colorful gems . . . sapphires . . . rubies . . . crystal: God will lavish riches upon the hurting and afflicted. When someone feels afflicted, tossed, and not comforted, they feel poor, no matter how much money they have in the bank. God promises to make the afflicted truly rich.



c. All your children shall be taught by the Lord, and great shall be the peace of your children: When we are afflicted, tossed, and not comforted, we feel bad not just for ourselves, but also for our children. God gives precious assurance not only for us, but also quiets our fears for our children.



d. In righteousness you shall be established . . . you shall not fear . . . whoever assembles against you shall fall for your sake: God promises those who are afflicted, tossed, and not comforted will find protection and security in Him. 



e. The sovereign God - who created the blacksmith, who created the spoiler to destroy - also has the power to protect. He can promise that no weapon formed against you shall prosper. Whatever weapon is raised against God’s people is destined to be destroyed itself. God will ultimately even protect His people from criticism; indeed, every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn.



i. The Lord will not allow the weapon formed against His servants to prosper. Sometimes this means the Lord takes the weapon out of the hand of the enemy of His servants. Sometimes it means that God allows the weapon to strike, but brings a greater good out of it than the pain of the immediate blow. In allowing this, God will not allow the weapon to prosper, but transforms the violent sword into a trowel for building His kingdom.



ii. The tongue which rises against you can really hurt. “Satan leaves no stone unturned against the Church of God. He uses not simply the hand; but, what is oftener a sharper weapon, the tongue. We can bear a blow, sometimes, but we cannot endure an insult. There is a great power in the tongue. We can rise from a blow which smote us to the ground; but we cannot so easily recover from slander, that lays the character low.” (Spurgeon) Yet, we can trust in the Lord’s triumph. “The more accusers, the more acquittals; the more slander, the more honor; so the enemy may slander us as much as he pleases.” (Spurgeon)



ii. This is not a blanket promise for any churchgoer. The Lord specifically says, this is the heritage of the servants of the Lord. Are you a servant of the Lord? Then you can rest easy in His promised protection. The Lord also says that this is a promise for those whose righteousness is from Me - from the Lord Himself - and not from themselves. When a person understands that their righteousness is really from the Lord, they are much more comfortable in letting the Lord protect their righteousness.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2009)

I guess what I'm driving at is that if Ladino or Giddish or Aramaic had noun gendre then the gendre of the subject would direct the writer to some degree as to which was the groom and which the bride.

In anycase, Shalom bros.

And here is a bit to add to this  free thinker's emporium:

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## tomtlb66 (Sep 22, 2009)

All I can say is this, I love this forum and for the most part, everyone is very respectful. I agree with you guys when being Christians, we try to have a discussion and certain people have to try and rain on our parade if you will. There is a double standard and to be honest with you, I'm sick of it. I try to be respectful even if I don't agree with someone's views or beliefs, but when they don't it does get me angry. I admit it, I pray for myself and ask God to help me with this and he does, but I do get tired of atheist or just plain disrespecful people trying everything they can to discourage us. Well here is the answer to that. " I will not give the devil his due," My Lord has defeated him and everything he stands for, and everytime I see a comment that is trying to discourage us on this forum, I am going to pray even harder for that person. I will try kindness and love instead of pushing them away with anger. God Bless each and everyone on this forum


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 22, 2009)

5pointCal said:


> I've noticed a reacurring trend on this forum. A Christian will post something concerning Christianity for the benefit of other Christians, and before long a "free thinker" will show up and try to impart some worldy wisdom on us poor sheltered fools. Why is that?
> 
> It's kind of like a bunch of guys standing around talking about hunting/fishing, having a nice time and then a couple members of PETA drop by just to let them know how barbaric and uncivilized they are for killing poor animals. You hypocrites do the same thing you accuse us of, going around trying to convert everybody. I can't speak for the other Christians on this board, but I don't go around to the "skeptic/free thinker" forums and jump in trying to prove this or that. Just wondering about that double standard.
> 
> ...


 

My suggestion, if you truly wish to isolate and ostrasize 40,000 + members, is start your own web site. Then to further insure you don't have your bubble burst while trying to foster your singular way of thinking is don't call the forum "Discussion, Debate and Study" so others won't feel compelled, or better yet have the freedom to join in.

Or here's another concept, if you are doing it for the sake of encouragement and not for discussion or debate then put it in the "Spiritual Support and Encouragement" thread. Most of you self-proclaimed good Christians rarely visit that forum anyway, so to shelter your thoughts you might as well start using it...


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> My suggestion, if you truly wish to isolate and ostrasize 40,000 + members, is start your own web site. Then to further insure you don't have your bubble burst while trying to foster your singular way of thinking is don't call the forum "Discussion, Debate and Study" so others won't feel compelled, or better yet have the freedom to join in.
> 
> Or here's another concept, if you are doing it for the sake of encouragement and not for discussion or debate then put it in the "Spiritual Support and Encouragement" thread. Most of you self-proclaimed good Christians rarely visit that forum anyway, so to shelter your thoughts you might as well start using it...



While I agree with most of your post, I think you fail to realize that more than you realize read the other spiritual forum.  Just because you don't post in there, doesn't mean you don't lurk around in there.

I just find it amazing some of the prayer requests.  No...not going to judge or question them, but it shows how trivial some things are.


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## Ronnie T (Sep 22, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> My suggestion, if you truly wish to isolate and ostrasize 40,000 + members, is start your own web site. Then to further insure you don't have your bubble burst while trying to foster your singular way of thinking is don't call the forum "Discussion, Debate and Study" so others won't feel compelled, or better yet have the freedom to join in.
> 
> Or here's another concept, if you are doing it for the sake of encouragement and not for discussion or debate then put it in the "Spiritual Support and Encouragement" thread. Most of you self-proclaimed good Christians rarely visit that forum anyway, so to shelter your thoughts you might as well start using it...



Wow. Hey now.  You're obviously a highly motivated spiritual person ready to seriously discuss spiritual issues.


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2009)

tomtlb66 said:


> All I can say is this, I love this forum and for the most part, everyone is very respectful. I agree with you guys when being Christians, we try to have a discussion and certain people have to try and rain on our parade if you will. There is a double standard and to be honest with you, I'm sick of it. I try to be respectful even if I don't agree with someone's views or beliefs, but when they don't it does get me angry. I admit it, I pray for myself and ask God to help me with this and he does, but I do get tired of atheist or just plain disrespecful people trying everything they can to discourage us. Well here is the answer to that. " I will not give the devil his due," My Lord has defeated him and everything he stands for, and everytime I see a comment that is trying to discourage us on this forum, I am going to pray even harder for that person. I will try kindness and love instead of pushing them away with anger. God Bless each and everyone on this forum



As a free will thinker, I sincerely empathize with the rigour of your convictions. Bless you brother.


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## Inthegarge (Sep 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> I'm sorry, but I just don't see it.



Exactly, if it doesn't meet your measure of reality then "I don't see it" You will never be convinced of anything that does not seem to benefit you or fit your "view" of the world. Enough "pearls before swine".....RW


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 22, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> While I agree with most of your post, I think you fail to realize that more than you realize read the other spiritual forum. Just because you don't post in there, doesn't mean you don't lurk around in there.
> 
> I just find it amazing some of the prayer requests.* No...not going to judge or question them*, but it shows how trivial some things are.


 
Too late, you just admitted to it.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> Too late, you just admitted to it.



No I did not....don't try and put words in my mouth.

I am saying, though, it adds perspective.  Someone's basement floods and then spmeone else loses a child to the raging water.

All of the sudden, a flooded basement doesn't seem so bad.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 22, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> No I did not....don't try and put words in my mouth.
> 
> I am saying, though, it adds perspective. Someone's basement floods and then spmeone else loses a child to the raging water.
> 
> All of the sudden, a flooded basement doesn't seem so bad.


 
Both need prayers and confirmed support and encouragement, regardless of the order of intensity that you place on the event.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> Both need prayers and confirmed support and encouragement, regardless of the order of intensity that you place on the event.



okay mr holier than thou 

i think we'd all agree that the death of an innocent young one is on a different level than an inconvenience.

no...i am not saying they are not important to God.


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## Miguel Cervantes (Sep 22, 2009)

rjcruiser said:


> okay mr holier than thou
> 
> .


 



So the self serving can dish it, but they can't take it.........All it takes is a little scripture to make you feel good about it huh??

Y'all have fun with this, I now see the true colors of those perpetuating this forum.

Out here.


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## rjcruiser (Sep 22, 2009)

scooter1 said:


> So the self serving can dish it, but they can't take it.........All it takes is a little scripture to make you feel good about it huh??
> 
> Y'all have fun with this, I now see the true colors of those perpetuating this forum.
> 
> Out here.



can't take it?

you are the one to drop in to this thread, throw a couple of parting shots, get called on it, then tuck tail and run.

not wanting any discussion or debate, eh?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2009)

Some men will only know one woman, their mothers and they will think that all woman are in likeness as their mother and when they will talk of women and the world they will talk of their mothers or grandmothers and when they will deal with the world they will deal with their mothers in mind.

It is for some that it cannot occur to them that their fathers and nephew's and nieces' fathers, knew women much better than they ever did and do...


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## pnome (Sep 22, 2009)

Inthegarge said:


> Exactly, if it doesn't meet your measure of reality then "I don't see it" *You will never be convinced of anything that does not seem to benefit you or fit your "view" of the world*. Enough "pearls before swine".....RW




That's simply not true.  I've stated the what would convince me to become a Christian many times.  John 20:25


Now, what would convince you that you are wrong?


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## gordon 2 (Sep 22, 2009)

pnome said:


> That's simply not true.  I've stated the what would convince me to become a Christian many times.  John 20:25
> 
> 
> Now, what would convince you that you are wrong?



John 20:25 (New International Version)
25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!" 
      But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it.

OK. You what to see marks? I challenge you to read Matthew  chapters 5, 6, 7 the beatitudes, and walk in them. Borrow shoes. Borrow a cross to start out with if you don't have one. Borrow mine it is light. Play the part to start if you have to. 

Now you will say the truths of the beatitudes are universal that they apply to sundry religions and like the law of gravity they are universal wisdom. And so you are perhaps correct. But this time I am not after what you know, I am after what you walk.

Now walk in a christians shoes if you dare. I challage you.  Walk out the power of the beatitudes.  This is a challenge to you. Walk in the beatitutes, study them, ask about them, live them, and the him you what to put you hand in his side and put your hand on his marks, you will meet there.

Now this is all foolishness to you now, but to meet someome you must go where He lives. If you are sincere about your requirement in other to be a chrisian then try as I say. I challenge you to walk the walk and then we will see.  Then we will talk. I challenge you, all christians challenge you. 

I walk in your shoes every day. Christians walk in your shoes everday.  Now walk in mine, walk in theirs and then lets talk.`

You can rail at christians and christianity the rest of you life, ( although we need boots up our darriers sometimes), but I challenge you to find the power in christianity by doing as I have said above. Read and study the beatitudes. The guy with the marks is already waiting on you there.

I personally could care less about your spiritual makeup, except I know that when the Lord shows up in your life that to his ministry you will be the first enrolled. You will catch on fire. And I shall go and listen to your sermons my brother( I`ll fly to just to see you preach on the power of Christ, about how you put your hands on the marks. But I am ahead of myself.

First, I challenge you my dear brother, find the courage to walk the walk. Invest. Risk. If you are sincere with yourself and honest with us, with me, with Inthegarge, it is the least you can do. So do it. And then we will `talk`.

You see, it is easy for me to rail on, to frown on  and pegion hole millionaires, especially  that I am not one. I think this is the case with you. As I have nothing invested that would make me a millionaire, really you have nothing invested that would make you a christian. I challenge your courage to try it with earnestness and study the beatitudes.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 22, 2009)

Pnome, do not forget the rest of John. How many metaphorical "scars" has God placed in front of you? I am not judging, just saying I missed many signs myself. 

27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 

   28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My LORD and my God. 

   29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.


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## ddd-shooter (Sep 23, 2009)

After contemplating it for a bit, I don't think many atheists would believe with a "Thomas Experience." I would argue that many who followed Jesus and saw his miracles lacked the faith to have a relationship with God through Jesus. Many who saw Jesus perform miracles still questioned him and said he worked through the devil. I would imagine those folks today would say it was smoke and mirrors, or there was no real blindness to begin with. They would probably dismiss the resurrection as a looney character who just put scars on his hands to fake his death.


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