# Baptising children



## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

Whats yalls  take on this I was always told children were free of sin.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 5, 2013)

My take is only believers should be baptized.


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## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

I agree how young would you say is too young?


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## hobbs27 (Dec 5, 2013)

7 point said:


> I agree how young would you say is too young?



 I don't think God ever put an age on it, therefore I have no way of saying at what age. I don't believe in infant baptism if that is what you're getting at. 

If a person can confess they are a believer and give their testimony of grace then I believe they should be a candidate for baptism. I'm sure others believe differently but know very well where a thread with this topic could head and probably are sitting on their hands at the moment.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

7 point said:


> Whats yalls  take on this I was always told children were free of sin.


Whoever told you that, never met my children.


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## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

Not trying to cause any trouble I was talking with my mom and told her about this 10 year old that got baptized at church Sunday and she didn't think that was right she thought only adults can make that decision.


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## gemcgrew (Dec 5, 2013)

Ask your mom why she is opposed to God saving a 10 year old. Or don't. Moms can be intimidating.


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## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

I did she said children are sin free so they are all ready saved its when they become adults they need to be saved.


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## dawg2 (Dec 5, 2013)

7 point said:


> Not trying to cause any trouble I was talking with my mom and told her about this 10 year old that got baptized at church Sunday and she didn't think that was right she thought only adults can make that decision.


Well, according to the Bible entire "households" were baptized.  There was not a limitation on age, so that would include infants as well.

Why restrict a minor from God based on age.


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## dawg2 (Dec 5, 2013)

7 point said:


> I did she said children are sin free so they are all ready saved its when they become adults they need to be saved.



What is the expiration date on that?  What age does the bible say humans become sinners or their actions qualify as sin?


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## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

That was acts 16 Jasons household where it talks about households being baptized but does it tell about age groups


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 5, 2013)

I don't really understand “household baptisms.”


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## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> What is the expiration date on that?  What age does the bible say humans become sinners or their actions qualify as sin?



I really couldn't answer that in todays time 18 is adult responceable for there own actions but I don't know about biblical times im shore it was younger that's why I think 10 is ok.


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## trckdrvr (Dec 5, 2013)

I was baptized at infancy..my Grandmother was going to have ALL 36 of her grandchildren baptized in the Methodist church or she wouldn't sleep/rest until the child was baptized(no discussing it with her)


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## 7 point (Dec 5, 2013)

That's sounds good to me.


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## Dana Young (Dec 5, 2013)

Baptism is  the evidence of salvation it has nothing to do with the salvation that comes from accepting Christ it is merely telling the world that you belong to Christ. 
The age of accountability is different for every person. once they can understand the gospel and know thedifference between being lost and saved then they can be saved whether they ar 5or 20 years old.


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## clayservant (Dec 6, 2013)

No 1  everybody that is "Baptising babies"  is not Baptising at all, they are putting water on the kids head, that is not Baptising. you have to go down into the water and come up, just study the word and you will see.  No 2  every child is not the same age when they are held accountable for sin.  Romans 7:8-10
King James Version (KJV)

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.


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## dawg2 (Dec 6, 2013)

clayservant said:


> No 1  everybody that is "Baptising babies"  is not Baptising at all, they are putting water on the kids head, that is not Baptising. you have to go down into the water and come up, just study the word and you will see.  No 2  every child is not the same age when they are held accountable for sin.  Romans 7:8-10
> King James Version (KJV)
> 
> 8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
> ...



I don't see an age there for baptism, nor an exclusion.  Do you have a verse that says not to baptise children?


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## dawg2 (Dec 6, 2013)

Acts 2 : 38-39 (KJV)

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


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## hobbs27 (Dec 6, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Acts 2 : 38-39 (KJV)
> 
> 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.



 Most would say it is impossible for an infant to repent, which according to the verse you provided is necessary for baptism. This is what I base my belief on anyway--- not so much at what age but one must be of age to understand sin and its nature to repent of it.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 6, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Acts 2 : 38-39 (KJV)
> 
> 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
> 
> 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.



The promise is for future generations. 
What about a "household baptism" verse, although there might not be any proof of children in the house. Why would one guy get saved and his whole house suddenly get saved?
There is another term "household salvation." Maybe this is why some baptize children.


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## johnnyk2000 (Dec 6, 2013)

i believe Dana hit it right on the head. Age of accountability (understanding) can be different. A child raised in a Bible believing church may understand it at a younger age than a unchurched child.


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## M80 (Dec 6, 2013)

Dana Young said:


> Baptism is  the evidence of salvation it has nothing to do with the salvation that comes from accepting Christ it is merely telling the world that you belong to Christ.
> The age of accountability is different for every person. once they can understand the gospel and know thedifference between being lost and saved then they can be saved whether they ar 5or 20 years old.



This is what I was going to say. This is where I stand on this matter


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## dawg2 (Dec 6, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> The promise is for future generations.
> What about a "household baptism" verse, although there might not be any proof of children in the house. Why would one guy get saved and his whole house suddenly get saved?
> There is another term "household salvation." Maybe this is why some baptize children.



Acts 16:15
King James Version (KJV)

15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his (family), straightway.




1 Corinthians 1:16
New King James Version (NKJV)

16 Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas. Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other


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## clayservant (Dec 7, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> I don't see an age there for baptism, nor an exclusion.  Do you have a verse that says not to baptise children?



If they know they are a sinner ,and what sin is ,and what JESUS died to do to save them from,and they believe in HIM , they should be baptised. a baby has no clue what is goin on.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

I don't think we can conclude from Household Baptisms that children were or were not present. Can we conclude that they were all believers?


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## Mako22 (Dec 8, 2013)

The only "take' I have is what the bible says and I could care less what people think or feel about anything. God's word is the only authority. Romans 3:10 and 3:23 all are sinners even children.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 8, 2013)

Having lived in both faiths I respectfully offer this to clarify the position of those that baptize infants.

We all suffer the burden of original sin from our first breath and then actual sin later. For those that practice infant baptism it is a sacrament as well bringing the child into Christ's church. 

Baptismal Prayer (excerpt)

DEARLY beloved, for as much as our Saviour Christ saith,
None can enter into the kingdom of God, except he
be regenerate and born anew of Water and of the Holy
Ghost; I beseech you to call upon God the Father, through
Holy Baptism our Lord Jesus Christ, that of his bounteous mercy he will grant to this Child  that which by nature he cannot have; that he may be baptized with Water and the Holy Ghost, and received into Christ’s holy Church, and be made a living member of the same.

ALMIGHTY and immortal God, the aid of all who need,
the helper of all who flee to thee for succour, the life
of those who believe, and the resurrection of the dead;
We call upon thee for this Child that he,coming to thy holy Baptism, may receive remission of sin,
by spiritual regeneration. Receive him, O Lord, as thou
hast promised by thy well-beloved Son, saying, Ask, and
ye shall have; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. So give now unto us who ask; let us who seek, find; open the gate unto us who knock; that this Child may enjoy the everlasting benediction of
thy heavenly washing, and may come to the eternal kingdom which thou hast promised by Christ our Lord. Amen.

Later at what Baptist would call the "age of accountability" the child is confirmed through a public profession of faith and salvation. (Excerpt)

What is your Christian Name?
Answer. My Christian Name is ——.
Question. Who gave you this Name?
Answer. My Sponsors gave me this Name in Baptism;
wherein I was made a member of Christ, the child of God,
and an inheritor of the kingdom of heaven.
Question. What did your Sponsors then promise for you?
Answer. My Sponsors did promise and vow three
things in my name: First, that I should renounce the devil
and all his works, the pomps and vanity of this wicked
world, and all the sinful lusts of the flesh; Secondly, that I should believe all the Articles of the Christian Faith; And
Thirdly, that I should keep God’s holy will and commandments, and walk in the same all the days of my life.
Question. Do you not think that you are bound so to
do?
Answer. Yes, verily; and by God’s help so I will. And
I heartily thank our heavenly Father, that he hath called
me to this state of salvation, through Jesus Christ our
Saviour. And I pray unto God to give me his grace, that I
may continue in the same unto my life’s end.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 8, 2013)

Does it matter if Baptism comes before or after Salvation? When does one pick up the Holy Spirit indwelling?
If infant baptism  was performed as a sacrament, would one want to be baptized again after salvation?
I've heard of folks getting Baptized two or three times usually once was when they were 10 or 12 and feel they might have been doing it under peer pressure. Others get re-baptized when switching Church denominations, to receive a total immersion, or to get baptized in the name of Jesus only.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 8, 2013)

At cofirmation the Bishop lays on hands as did the apostles. This part of the prayer may clarify.

ALMIGHTY and everliving God, who hast vouchsafed to regenerate these thy servants by Water and the Holy Ghost, and hast given unto them forgiveness of all their sins; Strengthen them, we beseech thee, O Lord, with the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, and daily increase in them thy manifold gifts of grace: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and ghostly strength, the spirit of knowledge and true godliness; and fill them, O Lord, with the spirit of thy holy fear, now and for ever. Amen.


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## centerpin fan (Dec 8, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Does it matter if Baptism comes before or after Salvation? When does one pick up the Holy Spirit indwelling?
> If infant baptism  was performed as a sacrament, would one want to be baptized again after salvation?
> I've heard of folks getting Baptized two or three times usually once was when they were 10 or 12 and feel they might have been doing it under peer pressure. Others get re-baptized when switching Church denominations, to receive a total immersion, or to get baptized in the name of Jesus only.



Pot-stirrer.


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## dawg2 (Dec 8, 2013)

Woodsman69 said:


> The only "take' I have is what the bible says and I could care less what people think or feel about anything. God's word is the only authority. Romans 3:10 and 3:23 all are sinners even children.


It is called "original sin."


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## 7 point (Dec 8, 2013)

I got baptized today at church along with 2 young boys about 10 or 11 years old and the pastor said it like this to the boys this don't wash a way any sin it is A symble that you give your life to the lord.


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 8, 2013)

If we look for what early Christians thought, Cyprian the Bishop of Carthage wrote only a few hundred years after Christ;

"In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man... Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision... we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another" (Letter 58 to Fidus).


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## clayservant (Dec 8, 2013)

Ruger#3 said:


> If we look for what early Christians thought, Cyprian the Bishop of Carthage wrote only a few hundred years after Christ;
> 
> "In respect of the case of infants, which you say ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after birth, and that the law of ancient circumcision should be regarded, so that you think that one who is just born should not be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day, we all thought very differently in our council. For in this course which you thought was to be taken, no one agreed; but we all rather judge that the mercy and grace of God is not to be refused to any one born of man... Spiritual circumcision ought not to be hindered by carnal circumcision... we ought to shrink from hindering an infant, who, being lately born, has not sinned, except in that, being born after the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of the ancient death at its earliest birth, who approaches the more easily on this very account to the reception of the forgiveness of sins - that to him are remitted, not his own sins, but the sins of another" (Letter 58 to Fidus).



And where is that in the Bible?


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## BT Charlie (Dec 8, 2013)

7 point said:


> I got baptized today at church along with 2 young boys about 10 or 11 years old and the pastor said it like this to the boys this don't wash a way any sin it is A symble that you give your life to the lord.



That is totally awesome, 7 pt, Praise God for you and those youngsters.  

My children ... I love ' em.  But I don't recall saying when the were 6 or 7 "Look boys, you got this all wrong. You're sharing these toys with all your friends. You have to stop that and be selfish like your dear old dad here.  Also, you're being polite and considerate. Stop doing that and 
act up a little, will ya?"  They pretty much came with that stuff already in them.  Bless their hearts! Original sin explains much....


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## barryl (Dec 8, 2013)

7 point said:


> I got baptized today at church along with 2 young boys about 10 or 11 years old and the pastor said it like this to the boys this don't wash a way any sin it is A symble that you give your life to the lord.


AMEN!!!!!!! 1 Peter 3:21 KJV AV


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## Ruger#3 (Dec 9, 2013)

7 point said:


> I got baptized today at church along with 2 young boys about 10 or 11 years old and the pastor said it like this to the boys this don't wash a way any sin it is A symble that you give your life to the lord.



Amen and GodBless brother!

Colossians 2:11-13

11- In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12- having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13- And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

To answer further would derail your original thread so I leave this on your awesome post!


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## hawglips (Dec 9, 2013)

hobbs27 said:


> Most would say it is impossible for an infant to repent....



I'd agree with this.


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## 7 point (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks   that was what got this conversation going with my mom I told her I was getting Baptized with A couple of young boys that was when she stated her comment.


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## rjcruiser (Dec 10, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Well, according to the Bible entire "households" were baptized.  There was not a limitation on age, so that would include infants as well.



Well...not necessarily.  Gotta make a few assumptions to get the "according to the Bible" thing to be accurate 



Dana Young said:


> Baptism is  the evidence of salvation it has nothing to do with the salvation that comes from accepting Christ it is merely telling the world that you belong to Christ.
> The age of accountability is different for every person. once they can understand the gospel and know thedifference between being lost and saved then they can be saved whether they ar 5or 20 years old.



I'd agree with this position as well.



7 point said:


> I got baptized today at church along with 2 young boys about 10 or 11 years old and the pastor said it like this to the boys this don't wash a way any sin it is A symble that you give your life to the lord.



Awesome!  And I think your pastor nailed it as well.


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## JB0704 (Dec 10, 2013)

My son was 11 when he got baptised, and only after he approached me about wanting to do so.  Didn't have a church at the time, so we got a preacher friend to meet us at a river to take care of it.


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## dawg2 (Dec 11, 2013)

rjcruiser said:


> Well...not necessarily.  Gotta make a few assumptions to get the "according to the Bible" thing to be accurate  .



Maybe.  But the same is true for those against infant baptism as well.


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> Maybe.  But the same is true for those against infant baptism as well.



Good point, it's amazing how many assumptions we make about the Bible to back up our own indoctinations?
I never though of it in reverse. There might have been dogs in the house too. I would want my dog to go to Heaven.


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## dawg2 (Dec 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> Good point, it's amazing how many assumptions we make about the Bible to back up our own indoctinations?
> I never though of it in reverse. There might have been dogs in the house too. I would want my dog to go to Heaven.



There are some things CLEARLY written out.  There are others a little vague, leaving room for individual interpretation.  This is where tradition comes into play.  The things historically documented and recorded.  At times even tradition can be heavily debated as well.  i.e. -->


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## Artfuldodger (Dec 11, 2013)

dawg2 said:


> There are some things CLEARLY written out.  There are others a little vague, leaving room for individual interpretation.  This is where tradition comes into play.  The things historically documented and recorded.  At times even tradition can be heavily debated as well.  i.e. -->



That almost sounds like we need other books besides the Bible. Perhaps the Dead Sea scrolls could shed some light.
The dog part was sarcasm and COULD clearly be written out.


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## dawg2 (Dec 11, 2013)

Artfuldodger said:


> That almost sounds like we need other books besides the Bible. Perhaps the Dead Sea scrolls could shed some light.
> The dog part was sarcasm and COULD clearly be written out.



Give me a "little" credit LOL.


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## warmouth (Jan 8, 2014)

Children aren't free from sin. That is pelagianism. All men after the fall are born into sin. From our mothera wombs we are born into iniquity. The "age of accountability" isnot biblical. Gods grace reigns supreme and He is in control of all things. I do believe in the believera baptism, but am not against infant baptism. However, I think that once that child comes to faith, they should have the opportunity to be baptized as a public profession. Child dedication isn't biblical, yet as most protestant churches outside of presbyterian and some methodism offer this dedication. I don't disagree with it either.


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## warmouth (Jan 8, 2014)

To add... sin is our nature. Whether 1 minute old or elderly. It ia who we are by nature because of the fall. Christ makes all things new and through the Holy Spirit we are changed. Like a dog givea birth to puppies, its thier nature. Same as us. We give birthto sinners who are enemies of God . Not nessicarily by choice, but by nature. It is God alone who brings us to repentance and humbles us because He loves us.


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## panfried0419 (Jan 8, 2014)

I was sprinkled at 5 in the Methodist Church. Poured  when I joined the Presbyterian when I was 12ish. I believe that it doesn't matter when or how. As long as you accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior.


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## warmouth (Jan 8, 2014)

I just wanted to add to what I said earlier. When I do have a child, it will be baptized as an infant. This is not to say it is a salvific act, but it is my way of a dedication of bringing this child up in a covenantial family and making the church responsible for this child and its parents to strive to live holy. Infant baptism, as a lot of people think,is the same thing as Abrahams covenant of circumcision. I will somewhat concur. It doesn't save the child. I will allow my child, upon his confession of faith, to be rebaptized, and will encourage it. Remember that baby dedications are not biblical. Remember that the "age of accountability" does not exist. That is a lie. Most of us have been taught that, but it isn't true and should not be taught, ever! God is just and holy, so He knows better than us in salvation. And the biblical age for men to be considered men was 30 (jewish tradition). Jesus began His ministry at the age of 30 as well.


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## kmh1031 (Jan 10, 2014)

*Chidren baptised...*

well, I guess the example would be Jesus himself....
He was not baptised as a child...and certainly if anyone could/should have been it was Jesus.
However, he learned from his father and mother, grew up reading the scrolls at that time, scriptures, as the complete bible was not written.

Once he came to a complete understanding of the bible and Gods will he was baptised at about 30 years of age, not as a baby, or child.

its true today, with baptism...much like a college degree..we dont get our degrees at an early age..but after years of study we get our HS, or college degree, 

Same is true with our baptism and learning gods will, changing our lives to conform..once we do that, then we should consider baptism, not when we are babies..
And children are not free of sin, as they/we are born from sinful parents inherited from our parents Adam and Eve....

Hope this helps...


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2014)

kmh1031 said:


> well, I guess the example would be Jesus himself....
> He was not baptised as a child...and certainly if anyone could/should have been it was Jesus.
> However, he learned from his father and mother, grew up reading the scrolls at that time, scriptures, as the complete bible was not written.
> 
> ...



I've never thought much on how old Jesus was when he was baptized. We try to persuade our children to get baptized at a much earlier age. Maybe because our baptism is seen as part of our salvation and Jesus' baptism wasn't a part of his salvation.


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## Artfuldodger (Jan 11, 2014)

I'm beginning to wonder if even some early adolescence baptism's are coerced by parents & peers to the point that it wasn't really a part of salvation. 
My own could be a good example. I was only 12 and my friend talked me into walking the aisle at the benediction. I'm not even sure I totally knew what I was doing. I wish I had waited until it was my own doing and understanding. 
Somehow I would have liked salvation as I understood it as a child and later another salvation as I understood it as an adult.


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## kmh1031 (Jan 11, 2014)

*Child Baptism*

Well, if you think about it, it makes sense...this is a vow to god, not something that should be done at 8, 10, 15, or 30 if you are not ready and fully understand the implication of what you are doing...
baptizing children at an early age, just to do it, or because "that is when I got baptized" is NOT the right reason...it should not be a tradition, but a serious decision when the child/adult can understand what they are doing and why, not because my "mom and dad" want me to, or that is what they did.....
Little more serious than that...,and quite a bit of undue pressure on the person if they are not ready and fully understand...


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## warmouth (Feb 1, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture there is not one word that mentions any such practice. There is no support for infant-baptism in any Scripture. There is no express command for infants to be baptized until they become responsible agents and turn to God and have their sins remitted as in the case of adults. On the contrary, it is clear from Scripture that baptism is only after men have repented and have been born again by the Spirit of God, There is no case of baptism of infants in Scripture. No passage even implies such practice. Infants are not lost due to the fact that they are not old enough to be responsible for their sins and therefore could not repent of know sins. Salvation is a personal experience and children must become old enough to accept salvation before they are commanded to be baptized. Children until they become responsible, even though their parents are unsaved, will be taken to Heaven if they die before accountability just as much as those of saved parents(Mat.18:1-10; 19:14). Scriptures demand faith and repentance as necessary before baptism and this no child can do until he is old enough to understand sin and what to do to be saved. They therefore cannot be fit candidates for water baptism which is a symbol of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and a testimony to the world that the individual has been saved from a life of sin and that he is walking in newness of life. Infant baptism became prominent when churches began to teach baptism and other sacraments to save the soul and remit sins. Such practice makes it impossible to obey Christ's command later without admitting infant-baptism was of no benefit. Since there are so many scriptural reasons why infant-baptism should not be practiced and since it has no efficacy it would be best to wait until the child turns to God by faith and repents of its sins before it is baptized. Only personal disciples and followers of Jesus Christ were commanded to be baptized (Mat. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 2:38-39).


So can you answer a few questions? Im not disagreeing that paedobaptism is taught or not. But because you seem adamant about the Bible not teaching this or that, some of the things you stated as fact raise an eybrow or 2.
1. Do all children that die go to heaven, and why?
2. Do you believe in the age of accountability,  and why?
3. Do you believe that children are born sin free? And if not, wouldnt they be just as guilty as a sinful adult?
4. Do you believe in baby dedications?
5. And should children be excluded from all sacraments, or just baptism?


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## Big7 (Feb 4, 2014)

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism

Just go here.

Should clear it up for you.


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## hobbs27 (Feb 5, 2014)

Big7 said:


> http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism
> 
> Just go here.
> 
> Should clear it up for you.



Or here:  http://www.hillcrestchurchofchrist.com/articles/jimmy_pettigrew/DoestheBibleTeachInfantBaptism.htm


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## HawgJawl (Feb 5, 2014)

Were there any innocent infants or young children on earth at the time of the great flood, or the first-born of Egypt, or in the cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, or Zeboiim?


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## Jeffriesw (Feb 10, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Were there any innocent infants or young children on earth at the time of the great flood, or the first-born of Egypt, or in the cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, or Zeboiim?


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## Lead Poison (Feb 27, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> I don't think God ever put an age on it, therefore I have no way of saying at what age. I don't believe in infant baptism if that is what you're getting at.
> 
> If a person can confess they are a believer and give their testimony of grace then I believe they should be a candidate for baptism. I'm sure others believe differently but know very well where a thread with this topic could head and probably are sitting on their hands at the moment.



I agree. I do not adhere to infant baptism because baptism is a public profession of faith after accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Infants can't speak and do not understand. 

It truly is when the individual fully understands what it is they are doing in baptism. Some are children that do this, but NOT infants or toddlers.


----------



## Lead Poison (Feb 27, 2014)

dawg2 said:


> Well, according to the Bible entire "households" were baptized.  There was not a limitation on age, so that would include infants as well.
> 
> Why restrict a minor from God based on age.



I have to disagree. It says households; however, it does not say every household. There is a huge difference. 

Obviously, if there were only adults and children of an age to understand then the entire household may have been baptized. 

Baptism is a public profession of faith. Infants and toddlers cannot profess because they are too young to do so. Thus, they should not be baptized until the reach an age of understanding....which various from person to person.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 27, 2014)

Lead Poison said:


> I agree. I do not adhere to infant baptism because baptism is a public profession of faith after accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. Infants can't speak and do not understand.
> 
> It truly is when the individual fully understands what it is they are doing in baptism. Some are children that do this, but NOT infants or toddlers.



How much does one need to understand to be baptized. I was baptized when I was 12 and still don't fully understand.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

gemcgrew said:


> Ask your mom why she is opposed to God saving a 10 year old. Or don't. Moms can be intimidating.



I agree. I was saved and baptized at 12. Ran far away later but continually brought back to the fold. Never from that age did I deny Christ and always believed He was who He said He was....I ran from Him, I hid from Him for many years because I thought truly if I were saved, I would never sin....so I hid in sin. I was truly saved at 12, and was just a lost lamb....He left the 90 and 9 to retrieve me...Thank you God for your Son  Jesus. He broke my legs a couple of times to get me to that point, but I'm here to stay this time....and if I fall, He will retrieve me again and again, because I believe, not because I'm perfect.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How much does one need to understand to be baptized. I was baptized when I was 12 and still don't fully understand.



He knocked and you opened the door. We will never fully understand....it's just that we believed, simple as that...what an awesome Saviour and Redeemer. That's why I believe once saved, always saved...I just had to believe and I did.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

Lead Poison said:


> I have to disagree. It says households; however, it does not say every household. There is a huge difference.
> 
> Obviously, if there were only adults and children of an age to understand then the entire household may have been baptized.
> 
> Baptism is a public profession of faith. Infants and toddlers cannot profess because they are too young to do so. Thus, they should not be baptized until the reach an age of understanding....which various from person to person.



That's exactly why I believe that baptism does not save you...nor required for salvation.  It's an outward action of an inward 'belief'.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 27, 2014)

HawgJawl said:


> Were there any innocent infants or young children on earth at the time of the great flood, or the first-born of Egypt, or in the cities of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, or Zeboiim?



You can ask a two year old if they broke something and get a 'natural born sinner's' response...'no'.

You don't have to teach a 2 year old to lie, they are born that way, you have to teach them not to lie/sin.

To your question, no there were none who were innocent and not mature enough to know right from wrong in God's eyes.... but God can have mercy and grace on those who have not heard/understood the Word of the gospel....and I believe He does.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 27, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> How much does one need to understand to be baptized. I was baptized when I was 12 and still don't fully understand.



Where do you get the idea that ANYONE fully understands God? Also, what do you mean fully?

No one FULLY understands God, but by faith we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior.


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## Lead Poison (Feb 27, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> That's exactly why I believe that baptism does not save you...nor required for salvation.  It's an outward action of an inward 'belief'.



Amen. 

Baptism is NOT a requirement for salvation, rather it is a public profession in Jesus.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> That's exactly why I believe that baptism does not save you...nor required for salvation.  It's an outward action of an inward 'belief'.



1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

The most powerful thing seen in baptism is an individual's faith.
I'm always amazed with I hear someone say "I don't believe baptism is necessary".
Yet God's word says the great product of individual baptism is "belief".

The Bible says it's so, yet today people say they don't believe one has to.
Isn't that odd?

If it's an 'outward action of an inward belief' what does it mean if a person has one but not the other?


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2014)

lead poison said:


> amen.
> 
> Baptism is not a requirement for salvation, rather it is a public profession in jesus.



show me!


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## dawg2 (Feb 28, 2014)

Banjo Picker said:


> Infant baptism is not taught in Scripture there is not one word that mentions any such practice. There is no support for infant-baptism in any Scripture...



Can you provide scripture verses that mentions "no baptism for infants"?


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## barryl (Feb 28, 2014)

Ah man, might as well get this right. Although there is a thread that was closed a ways back{Law and Grace.} I noticed that 3 or 4 posts before  this one "left a dab" out of 1 Peter 3:21. So here we go, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: {22} Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. KJV AV You know, I find 1 Peter 3:20 is very interesting in that Noah was saved by "floating" in the Ark. Amazing what little proper context will do.


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

barryl said:


> You know, I find 1 Peter 3:20 is very interesting in that Noah was saved by "floating" in the Ark.



That's not what the passage says.


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2014)

barryl said:


> Ah man, might as well get this right. Although there is a thread that was closed a ways back{Law and Grace.} I noticed that 3 or 4 posts before  this one "left a dab" out of 1 Peter 3:21. So here we go, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: {22} Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. KJV AV You know, I find 1 Peter 3:20 is very interesting in that Noah was saved by "floating" in the Ark. Amazing what little proper context will do.



Context!  Let me give you some context brother.

Noah was saved 1) because God allowed him to be saved 2) because Noah, in faith, built the ark(as God instructed him).

Context!  You want more context? 
"1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

*You are saved 1)because God allowed you to be saved 2)because you, in faith, built the ark(I mean, submitted to baptism)(as God instructed you).

Heb 11:7 By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Your move Barry.


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## M80 (Feb 28, 2014)

barryl said:


> Ah man, might as well get this right. Although there is a thread that was closed a ways back{Law and Grace.} I noticed that 3 or 4 posts before  this one "left a dab" out of 1 Peter 3:21. So here we go, The like figure whereunto even baptism doth save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: {22} Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. KJV AV You know, I find 1 Peter 3:20 is very interesting in that Noah was saved by "floating" in the Ark. Amazing what little proper context will do.



Amen, I like the floating part, that's a good point


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## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen, I like the floating part, that's a good ...



... example of eisegesis.  The word "floating" does not appear in 1 Peter 3:20.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2014)

I'm assuming y'all realize Baryl is using sarcasm to make a point. He is comparing floating to dunking, neither of which he feels saves.

Actually Peter 3:20 says the water saved them. They were saved by water, not floating on the water.


----------



## centerpin fan (Feb 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm assuming y'all realize Baryl is using sarcasm to make a point.



It doesn't sound like it to me, and I should know.  I have a black belt in sarcasm.


----------



## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> I'm assuming y'all realize Baryl is using sarcasm to make a point. He is comparing floating to dunking, neither of which he feels saves.
> 
> Actually Peter 3:20 says the water saved them. They were saved by water, not floating on the water.



Good for you....... the verse doesn't say they were saved because they floated.  They were saved by the water.  Maybe the water separated them from the destruction.

And as they were saved by the water, so we are saved by baptism......


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## Ronnie T (Feb 28, 2014)

mwilliams80 said:


> Amen, I like the floating part, that's a good point



But it isn't a scriptural point.

What is Peter saying?
.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Good for you....... the verse doesn't say they were saved because they floated.  They were saved by the water.  Maybe the water separated them from the destruction.
> 
> And as they were saved by the water, so we are saved by baptism......



Baptism is an outward confession of faith for an inward transformation.  What if someone on their deathbed professes their faith and are truly saved thru Christ, but dies before they can be baptized, are they saved or not?

What if someone says ok just to be safe I'll get baptized and I do believe in God, are they saved, not believing in Christ also or are even doubtfull?

Whosoever believeth shall be saved. I understand the part of being baptized and also believe, are you saying that only if you're baptized also that you can be saved? Christ tells us to do many more things, go into all the world and preach the gospel, mostly to love and do unto others....are those requirements to salvation, as if the death of Christ didn't do it all?

If you are Christened as a child, ie baptism, and later you finally get a clue and you come to believe the gospel, do you need to be baptized again to show your inner faith outwardly, or have you fulfilled the requirements for already being baptized as a child?

Of course I think we should be baptized, because you want to be, because you've come to salvation, but is it really a requirement to actually being saved or is it a work?

For me personally, the cross is what saved me, not baptizm, not fellowshipping, not go into all the world and preach the gospel(JW's) saved me, just Christ sacrifice on the cross.

And yes I've been baptized.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Good for you....... the verse doesn't say they were saved because they floated.  They were saved by the water.  Maybe the water separated them from the destruction.
> 
> And as they were saved by the water, so we are saved by baptism......



The strange thing is that as many times as I've read that verse it just hit me with today's reading as to what it really says. My eyes were suddenly opened. Wow, this Bible stuff is weird. Even stranger is it took Baryl to bring me to this. God does work in mysterious ways. 
I looked at 20 different versions and there was no mention of floating or an ark as being the salvation, it was the WATER.
The water is what did the Earthly cleansing. The Ark was only the vessel built by the faith and obedience of Noah. True they had to enter the Ark to survive but it was the water which saved them from the evil.


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## Artfuldodger (Feb 28, 2014)

The ark didn't save them from the water as much as the water saved them from evil. It's all tied together but without the water Noah would still be living in a world full of evil.


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## mtnwoman (Feb 28, 2014)

Artfuldodger said:


> The strange thing is that as many times as I've read that verse it just hit me with today's reading as to what it really says. My eyes were suddenly opened. Wow, this Bible stuff is weird. Even stranger is it took Baryl to bring me to this. God does work in mysterious ways.
> I looked at 20 different versions and there was no mention of floating or an ark as being the salvation, it was the WATER.
> The water is what did the Earthly cleansing. The Ark was only the vessel built by the faith and obedience of Noah. True they had to enter the Ark to survive but it was the water which saved them from the evil.



Then the people who got flooded were saved? they were also in water. Seems to me obedience to God is what saved the folks on the ark. JMHO though.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Then the people who got flooded were saved? they were also in water. Seems to me obedience to God is what saved the folks on the ark. JMHO though.



I've always considered that water destroyed the world but it actually saved the world. The water isn't the actual salvation but the means God used to bring about the salvation. God told Noah what to do as in building the Ark. In that same manner he told us what to do as in Baptism.
Noah wasn't saved from water as he was saved by water. 

This was just something that dawned on me today when I read that same verse for the umpteenth time. It's a new understanding for ME. Now I've got to reconcile my understanding of the Ark being Jesus. I've always considered the Ark as the salvation and not the water. 
So Ronnie, any help in this direction?


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2014)

The water that saved Noah destroyed many others. The water that saves us in Baptism will  destroy  many others who don't receive it. This is true if not even viewed as literal. Salvation for the few will be certain death of the many.
 Again, the flood saved Noah, not the Ark.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Baptism is an outward confession of faith for an inward transformation.  What if someone on their deathbed professes their faith and are truly saved thru Christ, but dies before they can be baptized, are they saved or not?
> 
> What if someone says ok just to be safe I'll get baptized and I do believe in God, are they saved, not believing in Christ also or are even doubtfull?
> 
> ...



What if???????????  There's lots of what if's.
And then there's the Bible.  And these verses are part of the Bible.

"For you personally"?  God saved Noah..... but Noah first had to build the ark.
And I hope Noah forevermore gave God all the credit for the salvation of he and his family..... but Noah still had to first build the ark.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Baptism is an outward confession of faith for an inward transformation.  What if someone on their deathbed professes their faith and are truly saved thru Christ, but dies before they can be baptized, are they saved or not?
> 
> What if someone says ok just to be safe I'll get baptized and I do believe in God, are they saved, not believing in Christ also or are even doubtfull?
> 
> ...



Didn't you read these verses?

"1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Isn't that good enough to prove the importance of it?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2014)

There is another Baptism in scripture. I think this baptism of spirit and fire that comes from Jesus is the one required in the NT. Its spoken of in the verses below, but there's also ample evidence in the Epistles of a water Baptism---either way Faith is required, this is why infants should not be baptised for they cannot profess faith.

Matthew 3:11
"As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


Acts 18:24-25
 24Now a Jew named Apollos, an Alexandrian by birth, an eloquent man, came to Ephesus; and he was mighty in the Scriptures. 25This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he was speaking and teaching accurately the things concerning Jesus, being acquainted only with the baptism of John;


Acts 19 1-7
 1It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples. 2He said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?” And they said to him, “No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.” 3And he said, “Into what then were you baptized?” And they said, “Into John’s baptism.” 4Paul said, “John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying. 7There were in all about twelve men.


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## Artfuldodger (Mar 1, 2014)

What is the relationship between the Flood and baptism? Is it an "antitype" meaning some type of reverse explanation?
How does Peter compare what the water does? The water saved them because the Ark floated on top an carried them to safety. The water is what destroyed the evil and what separated Noah from this evil. It was the water that cleansed.
Now our debate is "what is baptism?" Is it a symbol or a direct copy of the Flood? Did God flood the whole world just to give us a symbol, sample, analogy, or was it a exact copy of baptism?


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> There is another Baptism in scripture. I think this baptism of spirit and fire that comes from Jesus is the one required in the NT. Its spoken of in the verses below, but there's also ample evidence in the Epistles of a water Baptism---either way Faith is required, this is why infants should not be baptised for they cannot profess faith.
> 
> Matthew 3:11
> "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
> ...



Amen

We are to believe and be baptized (receive) the Holy Spirit.


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## mtnwoman (Mar 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Didn't you read these verses?
> 
> "1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
> 
> Isn't that good enough to prove the importance of it?



I never said it wasn't important.

I'd still appreciate the answers to my 'what if' questions...unless you believe that baptism in water is our salvation.

Anyone can be 'saved' if they only believe that verse....right? That's much easier for a lot of people to accept.


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## Mako22 (Mar 1, 2014)

A usual lots of heresy in these posts


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> There is another Baptism in scripture. I think this baptism of spirit and fire that comes from Jesus is the one required in the NT. Its spoken of in the verses below, but there's also ample evidence in the Epistles of a water Baptism---either way Faith is required, this is why infants should not be baptised for they cannot profess faith.
> 
> Matthew 3:11
> "As for me, I baptize you with water for repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, and I am not fit to remove His sandals; He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.
> ...



But, these verses don't in anyway minimize this......

1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

mtnwoman said:


> Amen
> 
> We are to believe and be baptized (receive) the Holy Spirit.



But scripturally, that's incorrect.
Acts 2, after the Gospel was preached for the very first time, Peter said:  "repent and be baptized(water), and "then" you will receive the Holy Spirit.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Didn't you read these verses?
> 
> "1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
> 
> Isn't that good enough to prove the importance of it?





mtnwoman said:


> I never said it wasn't important.
> 
> I'd still appreciate the answers to my 'what if' questions...unless you believe that baptism in water is our salvation.
> 
> Anyone can be 'saved' if they only believe that verse....right? That's much easier for a lot of people to accept.



There's lots of 'what if' questions.
What if Moses had not obeyed God?
What if Abraham had not been willing to offer his son?
What if Noah had not built the ark?
What if a preacher/pastor doesn't even teach a convert about baptism?
What if a person says 'I believe but I don't want to get baptized'?
What if a person has a heart attack as he's stepping into the creek to be baptized?

*I couldn't answer any of those questions scripturally, but I know that God will have mercy on whom He choses to have mercy on.
But I know what the Bible says.  And when it speaks to me, or you, or my grandson it does not deal in 'what if's'.

*1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.

The most powerful thing seen in baptism is an individual's faith.
I'm always amazed with I hear someone say "I don't believe baptism is necessary".
Yet God's word says the great product of individual baptism is "belief".

The Bible says it's so, yet today people say they don't believe one has to.  "I believe God's word, but I don't believe what it says about New Testament baptism."
Isn't that odd?

Is it a lack of faith, or a misunderstanding of faith.

If it's an 'outward action of an inward belief' what does it mean if a person has one but not the other?


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## centerpin fan (Mar 1, 2014)

Woodsman69 said:


> A usual lots of heresy in these posts



Cut us some slack.  We can't all go to your church.


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> But, these verses don't in anyway minimize this......
> 
> 1Peter 3:21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.



You're correct, thats why I added "but there's also ample evidence in the Epistles of a water Baptism 
 Using scripture alone, we know there are two baptisms, the one of John that is with water, and the one of Christ that is of holy spirit and fire. We know from scripture the Apostles baptized in water.
 We also know that leaves a lot open for interpretation, so much so that it's a debate that cannot be settled by scripture alone, or can you, using scripture define the difference in baptism in water and baptism in holy spirit and fire?  
 The one thing pertaining to this thread that we can determine through scripture is that faith is required for baptism, and an infant cannot profess faith....Also I think it is obvious that faith cannot be forced on someone, therefore baptizing a person regardless of age is no good unless that person has faith.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Using scripture alone, we know there are two baptisms,



Scripture clearly states that there is one baptism (Eph. 4:5.)


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> Scripture clearly states that there is one baptism (Eph. 4:5.)



Yep. Also as I have already shown Apollos recieved two Baptisms. One from John,&  the other is up to debate.


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## centerpin fan (Mar 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yep. Also as I have already shown Apollos recieved two Baptisms. One from John,&  the other is up to debate.



I have a firm grasp on the concept of futility, so I'm doing my best to resist another baptism debate.


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## barryl (Mar 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Context!  Let me give you some context brother.
> 
> Noah was saved 1) because God allowed him to be saved 2) because Noah, in faith, built the ark(as God instructed him).
> 
> ...


My move? Heb. 11 The great "Faith" chapter. Heb. 11:7 By "faith" Noah . . . Now you don't really expect me to believe that you believe that scripture, do you? You see, what it ought to say is, "By Water Baptism, Noah . . ., according to COC church beliefs. I know that the COC believes in "Baptismal Regeneration" and that water baptism is supposed to be essential to Salvation. Now since we are tradin' proof texts, have you read Heb. 11:6 lately? Verse 11 says, "But without {faith} it is impossible to please him."


----------



## barryl (Mar 1, 2014)

centerpin fan said:


> It doesn't sound like it to me, and I should know.  I have a black belt in sarcasm.


You're right! I may not be the best, but I'm in the top 2


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> You're correct, thats why I added "but there's also ample evidence in the Epistles of a water Baptism
> Using scripture alone, we know there are two baptisms, the one of John that is with water, and the one of Christ that is of holy spirit and fire. We know from scripture the Apostles baptized in water.
> We also know that leaves a lot open for interpretation, so much so that it's a debate that cannot be settled by scripture alone, or can you, using scripture define the difference in baptism in water and baptism in holy spirit and fire?
> The one thing pertaining to this thread that we can determine through scripture is that faith is required for baptism, and an infant cannot profess faith....Also I think it is obvious that faith cannot be forced on someone, therefore baptizing a person regardless of age is no good unless that person has faith.



I can use scripture to define the difference of the two.  

But Jesus never commanded Holy Spirit baptism.  Jesus created Holy Spirit baptism at His choosing.  Only twice in the Bible do I find Holy Spirit baptism.  1).  In acts 1 and 2 as the apostles received empowerment from the Holy Spirit; 2). When Cornelius seemed to receive the same.

When Paul or Peter laid their hands on someone and gave them the gifts from the spirit, that wasn't, by definition, Holy Spirit baptism.  Holy Spirit baptism came from God, not through the laying on of hands.

There is only one New Testament baptism.  And that is the baptism in water, as carried out by the apostles, and Philip, etc.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

hobbs27 said:


> Yep. Also as I have already shown Apollos recieved two Baptisms. One from John,&  the other is up to debate.



Scores of people were baptized with John's baptism of repentance.  Apollos was one of them.
But he was later required to submit, through faith, to being baptized into Jesus Christ.


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## Ronnie T (Mar 1, 2014)

barryl said:


> My move? Heb. 11 The great "Faith" chapter. Heb. 11:7 By "faith" Noah . . . Now you don't really expect me to believe that you believe that scripture, do you? You see, what it ought to say is, "By Water Baptism, Noah . . ., according to COC church beliefs. I know that the COC believes in "Baptismal Regeneration" and that water baptism is supposed to be essential to Salvation. Now since we are tradin' proof texts, have you read Heb. 11:6 lately? Verse 11 says, "But without {faith} it is impossible to please him."



I agree with everything you've said above concerning faith.    

**But, what was Noah's faith?*

Heb 11:7  By faith Noah, prepared an ark for the salvation of his household,

prepared an ark, by which he condemned the world, and become an heir.

By faith Noah built an ark.

*****************************************

1Peter 3:18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which also He went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison, 20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. 21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


*"an appeal to God for a good conscience"
What does that mean in regard to our choice to submit to baptism?


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## hobbs27 (Mar 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> Scores of people were baptized with John's baptism of repentance.  Apollos was one of them.
> But he was later required to submit, through faith, to being baptized into Jesus Christ.



Amen!


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## barryl (Mar 1, 2014)

Ronnie T said:


> I agree with everything you've said above concerning faith.
> 
> **But, what was Noah's faith?*
> 
> ...


O.K. We have blown this persons thread straight up in the air. Now just to stop the circular reasoning which is what the converts of Alexander Campbell, Barton Stone and Co. do. 1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the spirit: There is the Blood Atonement for sins,  the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus in one verse{1 Cor. 15:1-4} 19 By which also he(Holy Spirit) went and preached unto the spirits(not men) in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient . . . in the days of Noah. The spirits in 1 Peter 3:20 were Angels (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6) When God shut the door of the Ark he separated Noah and his family from the world. 21 A figure of is not the real thing. About this obedience thing you keep chirpin' about you ever read Romans 16:26 KJV AV obedience of Faith. Baptism is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Don't ever make the mistake of confusing baptism with obeying the Gospel. Romans 10:16


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