# Lets ask this



## vowell462 (Aug 27, 2011)

Im just curious to hear the stories. We have a diverse group of people that visit the AAA forum, with various opinions and beliefs, so what made you believe or not believe what you do? Were there significant events to lead some away from indoctrination? Were there some that led you to believe? Were you just born into it and sorrounded by it? Tell us about your UFO sighting. Whatever. 
Im sure everyone has some kind of story....This could get interesting.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

Well....I saw this UFO...and then....


Oh wait, no that's not it.


To put it in AAA language....I was indoctrinated from day one.  My dad was a pastor in the Methodist church.  I saw lots of hypocrisy and had lots of questions that I was afraid to ask.  So I lived a fake life of "perfection" for a very long time.

I did what I wanted in secret and lived that perfection and everything seemed great.  Still had my questions.  Still afraid to ask them.

Then, pretty much the first chapter of Romans happened to me.  God had enough.  

Was I indoctrinated?  You bet I was.  Do I believe in God despite what I learned about "christianity" growing up?  You bet I do.

He met me on my bathroom floor one afternoon.  It was not my emotions getting the best of me.  It was not my upbringing finally kicking in.  It was not a "feeling" I had.  It was THE almighty God.

I wish you guys knew him.  He's as real as I am.  I don't particularly care if you don't believe my story or if you question whether I know what i know.  I do pray and wish that you knew what I knew.  Not so that I can be right....but just so you'd know.


...and then the UFO flew off toward the south and I woke up feeling a little "violated".


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## vowell462 (Aug 29, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Well....I saw this UFO...and then....
> 
> 
> Oh wait, no that's not it.
> ...



Laughing at the UFO part. I wouldnt say I dont believe you, just wondering, thats all.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 29, 2011)

I've mentioned it before, but I'll add it here for the sake of the group...


Accepted Him as Lord when I was around 14, after being in church since I was a young boy.   Since then, I investigated the evidence for Christ....and His resurrection.   I particularly enjoyed comparing Him to what other religions/world views had to offer.   

1994....filled with the Holy Ghost in a Golden Corral steakhouse.        He's given me a great family....kids are awesome....no drug issues...no school problems.    My son loves the outdoors with me....and sees God's hand in all we enjoy.

Thoroughly enjoy our discussions on here.    I especially appreciate how everyone keeps their cool....and acknowledges good points that 'the other side' may present.

Pentecostal.   Christian outdoorsman.   Wish I had been born in Georgia.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 29, 2011)

> 1994....filled with the Holy Ghost in a Golden Corral steakhouse.




...and the answer to the obvious question is...

"Yes...the Golden Corral is just that awesome."



> He's given me a great family....kids are awesome....no drug issues...no school problems. My son loves the outdoors with me....and sees God's hand in all we enjoy.



Ditto this as well!!!!!


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## bad0351 (Aug 29, 2011)

I was gonna post my story.....But then I thought more about it and didn't want to pee on this love fest in the AAA forum.


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## stringmusic (Aug 29, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I was gonna post my story.....But then I thought more about it and didn't want to pee on this love fest in the AAA forum.





What do you mean by "love fest"?


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## vowell462 (Aug 29, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I was gonna post my story.....But then I thought more about it and didn't want to pee on this love fest in the AAA forum.



Dude.....It makes no difference to me what side of the fence your on. I just like hearing everyones mind. Puts things into perspective for myself.


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## Michael F. Gray (Aug 29, 2011)

Well Said Huntinfool. I was not raised in Church, and my father rarely attended except for weddings and funerals. In July of 1976 and old country preacher from Spartanburg, S.C. held a revival in a mission getting started with nothing more than a small mobile unit and a rocking chair for an altar. Johnny Bullman preached Hel l Hot. He was real, and for the very first time I got a good look at myself. Deserving to spend eternity in Hel l. I didn't respond during the revival, but I couldn't get away from it's impact on my heart. Couldn't sleep. I knew the Lord was dealing with me , and I believe I approached his deadline. I knew for me I had to make a decision to accept Jesus Christ as my personal Savior & Lord, or accept the eternal consequences. I was saved when my pastor for over thirty years, Dr. Rudolph Outlaw visited my home in the early hours of the 3rd Saturday in July of 1976. I've never looked back. I am his, and he is mine. I also would to God others could grasp this truth who have not become Christ's servant.


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## bad0351 (Aug 29, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> What do you mean by "love fest"?



Ask your god.......he knows the story


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## StriperAddict (Aug 29, 2011)

A trusted friend turned enemy, then back to friend again.  That was a type of catalyst that jump started my faith. I saw the change in him and his life reflected heaven (after so much hades) and I sought the Lord, well, He sought me, and planted real faith there in the heart in '79.  I never looked back.  
Events such as this are not what I/we base our faith on, but God used this as well as other people, scriptures, studies, etc. to give me the right amount of kick.


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## hummdaddy (Aug 29, 2011)

i was 14 years old at my mom and dad's house ,sitting on the steps in the drop down den when i saw this craft out the windows(5 windows).it was hovering over the neighbors house.it was silver in color , made of metallic material it appeared ,30'-35' across ,round, with circular light illuminating from the bottom of it.was about 80' off the ground... i did not see it doing anything else ... i don't know it sounds crazy ,but i know what i saw
______________


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## gordon 2 (Aug 29, 2011)

From 1988 to 199I  self studied world religions and faiths. I had decided that it was important to be personally responsible for my spirituality. ( I knew that there was a  spiritual "zone" that I was missing out on...because I had it as a young man, and had lost it, so.... I studied major faiths and also  the ideas that were anti religion, anti God, anti faith etc...---especially by people who had lived through WW2, philosophers(mostly english-england) and also the ideas of people who still lived with the history (spiritual-social) of Europe in general. As well, I talked to people of other faiths at this time, buddhists and muslims. I also interview  ( catholic) monks who after a few of my questions were quick to return to  their silences. LOL

My religious heritage is catholic, my parents were faithful people, and up to my teen yrs I was generally spiritually happy. Thereafter, peer pressure, early adulthood, and the stress of a difficult marriage that ended in a civil divorce, re-marriage, children, morgage and re-morgage and re-morgage again, being at the right place for wrong jobs, depression, etc... made 1988 essential.

One of the very last studies I did was to return to my local church to see how they measured up...to the world and its spiritual traditions. They were the best, the Gospel of the Good News put everything in perspective, like a grid of longtitudes and lattitudes falling on the ocean, I knew were I was again. I became centered spiritually. I developed a very real love for my community again and people in general. My "burdens" lightened up. I have been working on and studying the faith ever since. Christ is for me. The God of Abraham is my God.

Also I asked Jesus to come into my heart and help me and he has and continues.... Also....He proved to me once tangebily, that I was real according to Him. You see like many others I have never doubted that there was a God, or a Jesus Saviour, and yet I studied what the apostles said about Jesus " just to make sure"....LOL  I just wondered if "I" was important to God.

I tried to attend all of my local churches ( different denominations) at this time as part of my study.  I sat in on Baptist, Pentacostal, and Methodist churches ( services). I also attended a non-denominational church. One evening in the church service a visiting pastor said in the middle of the service that there were people in the church that were "now" experienceing an extremely strong fragrance, please stand up. I had been smelling this super strong fragrance for a while, and way before anyone mentioned it, including the pastor! I assumed that everyone was experiencing this fragrance. It was almost like someone spilled a bottle of perfume.

I got up and only 4 or five other people in the congragation stood up. He explained to us that it was the Fragrance of Sharon and the Holy Spirit was on us.

That fragrance stayed with me for seven days... It was everywhere I went and everywhere I was. The reason I know it was seven days is that the following Sunday ( a week after the apearing of the fragrance) the pastor of the non-denominational church asked for personal testimony and not being a member of that congragation, but as a visitor I did not give testimony and at the end of this testimony the Fragrace left me--immediately!

I researched this experience and came to the conclusion that God was telling me "Gordo, you are OK....relax". And many similar events have happen to other people I know. It might not have been a Fragrance but Jesus and the Holy Spirit touched many people I know according to the manner of their hearts and their needs.

And there is much more....but hey.... I'm married with a morgage and children and.... bear season here is 12 days away...and .....etc.


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## CAL (Aug 29, 2011)

I really don't know where to start but I have always been involved with the church and church activities.Was Baptized at a young age but really didn't understand the Bible till I was grown.I realized the Lord apparently has something for me to do before i am gone from this life.See He has passed on me 3 times I know of.I had a diving accident in 1974 that resulted in a broken neck and floated face down in the water till one of the fella's pulled me out.I was totally paralyzed,couldn't move anything at all.Over time I regained all my feelings and was whole once again.Nothing short of a Miracle.Then in 1994 I went to a heart specialist for a cath.and he poked a hole in a coronary artery and gave me a massive heart attack.My heart Dr.today says I am not suppose to be here.During this time I had an experience where I lost my eye sight and my hearing all at the same time.I refer to this as the "Valley of the Shadow of Death".I knew I was gone then but I wasn't.That was 20 years ago and I am still here.Looking back,I think God was just showing me that He holds the keys to the whole show and it is His way or no way.

Then my first Grand child was born and went straight to high risk nursery where she was paralyzed and sedated and put on total life support.The Dr.in charge gave us what i consider very little hope,20% she would live and no hope of her recovering fully and possible brain damage too.This is where I was shown the power of the All Mighty.In my daughters room I feel sure I entertained an angle.The Bible speaks of this.This pink lady was bringing the ice around and had the most distressed look on her face I have ever seen on an individual.I had seen her the day before and noticed this about her.She saw my distress look I had and asked if there was something she could help with and I asked her could she find me a Bible.That was the magic word and she lit up like a bright light instead of the other look I had seen before .Left and was immediately back with a Gideons Bible.For 9 days afterwards,I never saw this pink lady again.I began praying for my Grand daughter to be made well.I prayed to the point of asking the Lord to take me and allow her to live.I was worthless and she was a new life,just take me Lord and let her live.Now the Lord doesn't always work as fast as we like but works in His own time.One of the nurses gave me some scripture to read that she found that was very inspirational when needed.It is found in Isaiah 40;28-31.Very powerful words,read them.It was 7 days before my daughter even held her child but in 9 days we brought her home.Praise the Lord because I know He deserves all the credit here.Today she is a beautiful 16 year old little lady who has no medical problems whatsoever.
There are other happenings I could tell of seeing the Lords power and His Hand moving in control.People can say it was a medical issue that was handled but I know better and will never believe otherwise.Had anyone walked in my shoes those days they would definitely agree with this post.Even the nonbelievers would have a change of heart.
Peace and Blessings to all.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Ask your god.......he knows the story



You're "Got Anger?" bumper sticker is in the mail as I type this.  

Enjoy curtousy of your local AAA participants.


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## Sterlo58 (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You're "Got Anger?" bumper sticker is in the mail I type this.
> 
> Enjoy curtousy of your local AAA participants.


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## gtparts (Aug 30, 2011)

Let the redeemed of the LORD say so!

I was born into a Christian family that attended a Methodist church. I was christened as an infant, which had no profound effect on me, but I think it important to establish my parents' commitment to raise me in the love and admonition of the Lord.

At eleven, we moved to DeKalb Co., next door to a Baptist preacher and began attending the church he served. (My father was raised Baptist; my mom, Methodist).

I may not have been the sharpest knife in the drawer, but I knew I had a bent toward disobedience. Childhood sins were liberally spread throughout my years as a young boy. It was around the age of twelve that conviction of my personal standing before a holy and just God moved me to give my life to Him.

Little changed for the next several years .... ever trying to walk this spiritual fence in my own power... and failing enough that I knew something was wrong. Loving God and following Christ is impossible "on the fence". 

Married at 21, things began to take shape for a "model" life, yet somehow I was still missing some key aspect of the Christian life. I was only involved on the fringes. Attempting small things for the Lord, but never giving my all to any effort, I realized that to experience more of what God had planned for me was going to take more work on my part. There is joy in being saved and knowing that security, but there is so much more to being a Christian. There is incredible joy in obeying God! God fills me, uses me, and refills me, over and over and over. The relationship has to be more than occasional, far deeper than casual! 

It has been almost 50 years since I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior. It just took a few years to realize that "Lord and Savior" is a single title. He is Lord of all or He is not Lord at all. He does not choose to share the throne of my life with me. He and I are not co-regents. He is King of kings.

I suppose one could say that by choosing the path I have chosen, I am ignorant of how things might have been. Perhaps that is true, but I have seen others take the other path, that yielded sorrow and destruction, for the individual and those around them. In a fallen world that offers only the consequences of sin, God has provided a means, not only of escape, but of eternal joy. 

Some believe that this is the only life we will know, dust to dust. Even if that were so, I know the joy of being His and am grateful for whatever time remains while I am here. I look forward to the all-surpassing life of eternity with Him, also.


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

I grew up a catholic, church and sunday school every week. I was devout.  In more than just religion.  My life motto was god, country, and family, in that order.  Somewhere in my late teens I began to think more deeply, and question everything.  The more I looked the more I saw the obvious, and what I found, I found revolting.  I became disgusted at religion, and government, realizing they do nothing to free the spirits of man.  On the contrary the are both methods to control men.  Religion through indoctrination, and fear, and government through coersion and force.

I realized at some point that IF there was a god, it certainly would not approve of invoking itself as a means to control its creations.   I found it nauseating that so many claimed exclusivity,  when even closely related religions could not find cohesiveness.  I thought it silly and down right naieve that so many thought they had it right, and would win the prize of afterlife, when they are such a minority. 

I became a searcher, as many on here are, looking for answers that are not found in a book corrupted by man.  Are their answers in there? To some questions, I'm sure. But I am certain it is a book that no god authored or even dictated. I believe the answers are all around us.  The clues to the purpose of life, are in our lives, and all we have to do is look.

Is there a god?  The answer is UNKNOWABLE, despite what some would have us beleive.  So if a god exsist and his exsitence is unknowable, it was its intent. For if there was a god, it would be easy to make its presence felt. It's silly to me to assign  such a powerful entity manly attributes, that so many religions say this god possess. Jealousy, rage, need, and lonelyness. 

I could go on but the bottom line is the are two institutions that are responsible for more pain, destruction, death, corruption, and the suffering of man.  Religion and government. Both are unnecessary when the goodness of man prevails.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 30, 2011)

> I realized at some point that IF there was a god, it certainly would not approve of invoking itself as a means to control its creations.



Curious...what brought you to that conclusion?  You're an "evidence" guy.  What evidence or proof got you there?




> The clues to the purpose of life, are in our lives, and all we have to do is look.



Who or what assigned the "purpose"...and how did the clues get there?





> Both are unnecessary when the goodness of man prevails.



Without a creator...how did man become inherintly "good".  I'm gathering from this quote that man is good when left alone by religion and government.  Correct?  I would think that if we were randomly evolved, survival of the fittest would require us be naturally selfish and only self-serving (for the purpose of survival).  How did man become "good" without a creator?




Epic fail????


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Without a creator...how did man become inherintly "good".  I'm gathering from this quote that man is good when left alone by religion and government.  Correct?  I would think that if we were randomly evolved, survival of the fittest would require us be naturally selfish and only self-serving (for the purpose of survival).  How did man become "good" without a creator?



Stalin....Tao.....Hitler.....these guys showed us what men are capable of when they think no One is watching.    Atheism has led to more of history's atrocities than any of the religious wars!   Pales in comparison.

obviously, men aren't 'good' by default.   Each of us has to deal with the evil within.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Stalin....Tao.....Hitler.....



Actually, it's "Mao".     It's important to correctly name the greatest butcher of the 20th century.  The Tao is a philosophy/religion.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

lol    my bad!   memory was foggy...but I knew there was an 'ao' in it!


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Curious...what brought you to that conclusion?  You're an "evidence" guy.  What evidence or proof got you there?



I'm not an evidence guy, though it is nice to have, I do not require it.  I am a logic/deductive reasoning kind of individual.  Logic lead me to that conclusion, I do not by no means claim to have definite knowledge on the unknowable.  I guess I should have asserted that it is more an opinion than certainty.  



> Who or what assigned the "purpose"...and how did the clues get there?



Ask yourself what is the ultimate _observable_ purpose to all life on earth? To live and maintain the survival of their species.  Thats what all instincts are geared twards.



> Without a creator...how did man become inherintly "good".  I'm gathering from this quote that man is good when left alone by religion and government.  Correct?  I would think that if we were randomly evolved, survival of the fittest would require us be naturally selfish and only self-serving (for the purpose of survival).  How did man become "good" without a creator?



Naturally individualistic, not selfish.  Look at us a total species.  We NEED each other to survive and PROSPER.  Our world has evolved to become dependent on the indvidual goals of others so we all may prosper. That is not to say that some can live witout others but it kind of makes it difficult to maintain our species, and it certainly would not prosper.  

Define good. To me good is anything the promotes the survival and porsperity of our species, not excluding act of selflessness, or selfishness.  

A man that invents something for the sole purpose of wealth, that benefits others in its creation, is good. 

A man that runs into a burning building to save a life of child is good.

A father that raises their children to seek their greatest potetial is good. 

And ect..




> Epic fail????



Not this time, those where good questions, ones I have thought deeply about myself.


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Stalin....Tao.....Hitler.....these guys showed us what men are capable of when they think no One is watching.    Atheism has led to more of history's atrocities than any of the religious wars!   Pales in comparison.
> 
> obviously, men aren't 'good' by default.   Each of us has to deal with the evil within.



Athiesm had little to with those.  It was all men seeking to control other men for the purpose of power.  If you asked Hitler he would have proclaimed himself a christian, (which he did mostly to win the support of the christian germans), but it is highly arugueable that he was.  This would fall  in the government category.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

It's universally known that Hitler was an ardent follower of Neitzche's (atheist philosopher) writings.   Neitzche's ideas fueled Hitler's racist ideologies....and subsequent campaigns.


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## stringmusic (Aug 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I'm not an evidence guy, though it is nice to have, I do not require it.  I am a logic/deductive reasoning kind of individual.  Logic lead me to that conclusion, I do not by no means claim to have definite knowledge on the unknowable.  I guess I should have asserted that it is more an opinion than certainty.


Do you claim to definitively know that certain things are "unknowable"?   





> Ask yourself what is the ultimate *observable* purpose to all life on earth? To live and maintain the survival of their species.  Thats what all instincts are geared twards.


Hold on now, does it have to be observable? Because you are not an evidence guy.....



TheBishop said:


> I'm not an evidence guy


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Im just curious to hear the stories. We have a diverse group of people that visit the AAA forum, with various opinions and beliefs, so what made you believe or not believe what you do? Were there significant events to lead some away from indoctrination? Were there some that led you to believe? Were you just born into it and sorrounded by it? Tell us about your UFO sighting. Whatever.
> Im sure everyone has some kind of story....This could get interesting.



Vowell......what's your story?    We need some 'balance' in this thread you started!   lol


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> It's universally known that Hitler was an ardent follower of Neitzche's (atheist philosopher) writings.   Neitzche's ideas fueled Hitler's racist ideologies....and subsequent campaigns.



It it also known he claimed christianity when it suited him.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> It it also known he claimed christianity when it suited him.



I learned something today.   didn't know that.    Not that it matters, though.   Like you said, he probably 'used' it for his gain.


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

stringmusic said:


> Do you claim to definitively know that certain things are "unknowable"?



Yes. There are definetly things that are unknowable.



> Hold on now, does it have to be observable? Because you are not an evidence guy.....



This is called spin. I was replying to HF who painted me a _strictly_ an evidence guy.  I responded accordinly:



> I'm not an evidence guy, though it is nice to have, I do not require it. I am a logic/deductive reasoning kind of individual. Logic lead me to that conclusion, I do not by no means claim to have definite knowledge on the unknowable. I guess I should have asserted that it is more an opinion than certainty.


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## TTom (Aug 30, 2011)

Seriously, LOL balance is needed but the feeding frenzy that was displayed ensures a lack of participation.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

feeding frenzy on bishop... Should we begin as well?


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> feeding frenzy on bishop... Should we begin as well?



I would not open up to it if I did not welcome it.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

Good attitude, Bishop.   I think everyone that is willing to post their worldview on here has to have some thick skin, and be prepared for opposing opinions.  

Did seem a little one-sided though.   Still waiting for the OP to chime in...


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I would not open up to it if I did not welcome it.



Everyone left alone god's miracles... I did it on purpose because I figured the meaning of this was to hear them, not try to disprove or disect them.


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Everyone left alone god's miracles... I did it on purpose because I figured the meaning of this was to hear them, not try to disprove or disect them.



For some, that is impossible.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm just saying I didn't figure this discussion was to disprove or disect the personal experiences. More just to hear what they are. Now that I know, I'll be posting some quotes.


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## TTom (Aug 30, 2011)

It's not the opposing view that I was observing, it was 7 Christians posted their stories and other than one or two good natured jabs and a sidetrack about why one person didn't want to post their story, the stories were being read and accepted as a frame of reference thing.

Then finally one non christian posts and we have how many folks jumping at the chance to question him?

Now that could have been because it was Bishop, LOL I mean he's not unlike a lightning rod in many ways on this forum. But I was taking the wait and see approach and the results were as I expected.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

Those things are remarkable. IMO this where a lot of supernatural beings and forces came from. Things we didn't understand happening, so we said it must be this supernature force up there watching over us. If you had been a non-believer in another country who heard from all angles that another god was in control of everything, those kinds of experiences probably would have led you to that faith. Those people who are comfortable not attributing strange things to a god, which there's no reason that they have to be, don't..




CAL said:


> I had a diving accident in 1974 that resulted in a broken neck and floated face down in the water till one of the fella's pulled me out.I was totally paralyzed,couldn't move anything at all.Over time I regained all my feelings and was whole once again.Nothing short of a Miracle.Then in 1994 I went to a heart specialist for a cath.and he poked a hole in a coronary artery and gave me a massive heart attack.My heart Dr.today says I am not suppose to be here.During this time I had an experience where I lost my eye sight and my hearing all at the same time.I refer to this as the "Valley of the Shadow of Death".I knew I was gone then but I wasn't.That was 20 years ago and I am still here.Looking back,I think God was just showing me that He holds the keys to the whole show and it is His way or no way.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> It's not the opposing view that I was observing, it was 7 Christians posted their stories and other than one or two good natured jabs and a sidetrack about why one person didn't want to post their story, the stories were being read and accepted as a frame of reference thing.
> 
> Then finally one non christian posts and we have how many folks jumping at the chance to question him?
> 
> Now that could have been because it was Bishop, LOL I mean he's not unlike a lightning rod in many ways on this forum. But I was taking the wait and see approach and the results were as I expected.



Yeah, thats what I saw... ready to go now. I'll post mine shortly too.


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## CAL (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> I'm just saying I didn't figure this discussion was to disprove or disect the personal experiences. More just to hear what they are. Now that I know, I'll be posting some quotes.



You are correct,my take on the OP was to hear what each believed and why, not to take anyone's post and take it apart with criticism nor agreement.If we start questioning,criticizing,and arguing,this subject will be useless.Like so many others it will accomplish nothing.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Those things are remarkable. IMO this where a lot of supernatural beings and forces came from.




2 Peter 1:16 - For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 

Jesus Christ.   A real person.   historical.    When it comes to having an affect on history, He stands alone.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

CAL said:


> You are correct,my take on the OP was to hear what each believed and why, not to take anyone's post and take it apart with criticism nor agreement.If we start questioning,criticizing,and arguing,this subject will be useless.Like so many others it will accomplish nothing.



x2


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> Now that could have been because it was Bishop, LOL I mean he's not unlike a lightning rod in many ways on this forum. But I was taking the wait and see approach and the results were as I expected.




You know I don't know if I should take offense to that but it sure made me laugh!


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

Here's mine.

I spent the first 15 years of my life in different baptist churches. I think mainly 6 different churches. I went up to get saved officially around 13 years old. Like many of you had said, I didn't realize exactly what I was doing, but knew I needed to do it. 13-19 I spent in 2 different churchs mainly. One baptist and the other non-denom.

It was really in the non-denom with a couple of close christian friends that I was able to iron out my faith and understood how to keep my relationship with god and realized that people telling me that you don't recognize his voice unless you speak to him often were right.

At about 21 I had a lot of school work going on and a wife and a baby.. Sunday mornings were my only day to sleep, so I did. I kept my faith completely though and lived in a household where it was around me all of the time still. At 22 or 23 I felt like the constant preaching (from church, my family and my friends) that I had gotten away from somewhat, had been clouding my ability to really decide things for myself. So I did my own research. Over the next several years I understood more and more about why I had believed what I had believed, but I wasn't completely over the thought of a god.

By 25 or so I was to the point that I was having prayer type thoughts just out of habit. 

My parents had always been there to encourage me and my faith, although of course I saw imperfections in their faith, which were mainly centered around church administration types of things. No big deal. My dad is a structural engineer. VERY math oriented and VERY logically oriented in almost every way. If I didn't use common sense, he would always tell me I had to USE MY BRAIN. Not particularly nicely, but not horribly either. Last year I went to a bbq at their house. Only my brother in law and one son was able to attend, my sister and the other son were sick. Seeing that there was room at the table, my dad was enthusiastic to call his neighbor and invite him over. I was uncfortable with this guy all afternoon. After being at home with my daughter and going out to dinner with her that night I was completely anxious and I didn't know why. Still, mostly out of habit I asked god to help calm me. 

At almost midnight I had an idea come in to my head. A few months before my dad had seriously discussed moving out of his neighborhood with me because there were 3 child molesters living in the neighborhood. After the conversation I did my online research. I sat there thinking that I actually did recognize the face, but I thought for sure my dad wasn't that stupid. Another 30 minutes of anxiety and I checked. Sure enough...

I have never been so furious in my life. I called my dad at 12:30 when he gets up at 5 for work. I've never spoken to anyone more disrespectfully or with so many bad words in my life. He apologized and tried to justify his actions. When he stated, "he goes to my church and god has changed him," I made a HUGE realization. I unfortunately was too furious to explain it to him then and just kept on with my attack. 

Those words made me realize that I had been on the right track for the last several years. It went together right with my habit of talking to a god I didn't really think was there any more. I realized how brainwashed my dad was to believe that a 40 year old man getting convicted of child molestation and enticing a child was safe to bring around his grandchildren because he goes to church and says he's changed. And that was the same reason I was still going through my motions and why I had believed with every bit of myself and trusted I was experiencing my entire life. 

My family as never been intensely close. My daughter is now not allowed in their house. We met at my sister's house (who is another sad, christian story all together), for thanksgiving and christmas. My wife has taken my daughter out to lunch with them a few times, but that's all I've seen of them in over a year. I still feel a little sick when I think about that situation, but overall it doesn't linger in my always. I am still HAPPY that I've distanced my family from it. Not just indifferent. 

Although I doubt my parents would make a decision like that again (but I wouldn't put it past them), I just wonder what god will justify for them next...

I've seen it here before... when it comes to our own children, I think all of us will buckle. I devoted (whatever you call it) my daughter when she was born. If a mighty voice and bright light came down from the sky and asked me to sacrifice her, I would probably have a finger for it. HF - you can say he won't do that again because it's not necessary any more, but obviously I'm speaking hypothetically.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> x2



I see you didn't directly respond to personal account, but it has already happened... you responded to a response.


----------



## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

true.   but from the start I assumed this was just a 'state your opinion' kinda thread.    There's a whole lot more I would have/could have said had I felt it was the place for it.

It's hard not to take offense to things people say here, but I believe this thread is not the time or place.  

IMO...


----------



## TTom (Aug 30, 2011)

And Mine,

Dad was a non practicing Baptist, I think I went to church with him once, Mom was a slightly more practicing Catholic and I guess we went to church a couple dozen times I recall when I was young, Older sister did the whole confirmation thing.

Mom and Dad both talked about God found in nature and in every thing on the earth. But by and large they allowed me to develop my spirit as I wished. I studied various religions, they insisted I check out as many a I wanted. It didn't take, non of them quite seemed right, too many unanswered questions in church and I found myself far more connected to the divine while roaming the woods.

Years pass

Step father's best friend came over invited me to church when I was a kinda lonely kinda awkward 13 year old kid, Pentecostal church and for awhile I was taken with the whole thing.
Sanctified and all that good charismatic stuff prayer and readings and study and still in the end even with all that a year later, that still small voice said, something isn't right here.

As Bishop mentioned the exclusivity and the hubris it takes to believe that (your/ my religion) is the only one that has it right. That somehow all those other folks are wrong and you have it figured out. Stopped going to church and continued to seek truth on my own. 

In college tried the local Episcopal Church and found some solace there along with a pretty good man Father Wopler. 

Married, had a child, divorced, finished college, spent 15 years as a bachelor. During that bachelor time I studied some new age stuff , studied pagan religions from the east and the west. Believed for a long time that the new age stuff was all a bunch of hooey. 

Found a larger and larger number of recurring themes, studied the stories of various religions and found impossibly alike stories in many religions separated by culture, time and location. Concluded either a shared prior root religion or plagiarism/ borrowing stories and changing the names, were the most likely causes. 

Continued to study and seek my own path for many more years espousing universalistic themes as my basic belief set.

Saw ecstatic body rituals in 1996 and it was like a train wreck couldn't turn my head away. But at that time swore that in a million years you couldn't pay me enough to do that stuff. But Kudos to those crazy folks who could.

Met my current wife in 1997 started dating in 1998 and have been married since 2003.

In 2006 I was heading to an event that had a flesh hook ritual as part of the last day and told the wife, Sign me up for that. shocking her and myself in the process. Something just told me I needed to do it. The ritual that year for me lasted for some 2 hours with me pulling against a framework from two hooks and riding a wave of emotion and spiritual energy. 

Did the flesh hook pull that year and have done 1-3 of them every year since then. Learned to perform the piercing aspect as well to facilitate others journeys. Did my first suspension of my body from hooks earlier this year (2011) and will continue to do them.

The core belief I hold is that most every religion and spiritual practice gets a little piece of the truth, some get larger parts than others, and many of them get alot of it wrong at the same time, but none of them has the whole picture. Yet each of them tend to think they have the whole truth.

I'm still facilitating body rituals including one this weekend for a young man in Birmingham AL. I'm still seeking truth and still helping anyone else I can along the way to find their truths.


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> 2 Peter 1:16 - For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
> 
> Jesus Christ.   A real person.   historical.    When it comes to having an affect on history, He stands alone.



He might have been... and as far as history goes, you're right I guess.

I'll say it again... how could some guys have know that people may call their..... fables.... fables...


----------



## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> ...The ritual that year for me lasted for some 2 hours with me pulling against a framework from two hooks and riding a wave of emotion and spiritual energy.
> 
> Did the flesh hook pull that year and have done 1-3 of them every year since then.... will continue to do them.
> 
> ...



So what do the hooks do for you spiritually? What do you get from it?


----------



## stringmusic (Aug 30, 2011)

Didn't mean to rub anybody the wrong way by asking questions. I thought about not asking any questions to Bishop but he answered HF's questions without stating he thought it was guarded.


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## stringmusic (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> And Mine,
> 
> Dad was a non practicing Baptist, I think I went to church with him once, Mom was a slightly more practicing Catholic and I guess we went to church a couple dozen times I recall when I was young, Older sister did the whole confirmation thing.
> 
> ...



Very interesting TTOM, thanks for sharing.


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## TTom (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> So what do the hooks do for you spiritually? What do you get from it?



Well I get a transcendence, I get flashes of communing with the divine, I sometimes get catharsis, which sometimes becomes catalytic and inspires a change. 

I discussed this a bit more in this thread over in the "Other Faiths" section http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=572088


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> ... I get flashes of communing with the divine ...



I, too, get flashes of communing with the divine....everyday!!!  

Attaboy, TTom!


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

Cool. Thanks for the link.


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> Well I get a transcendence, I get flashes of communing with the divine, I sometimes get catharsis, which sometimes becomes catalytic and inspires a change.
> 
> I discussed this a bit more in this thread over in the "Other Faiths" section http://forum.gon.com/showthread.php?t=572088



Reminds me of the lye scene in the movie fight club. I do not know why.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> You're "Got Anger?" bumper sticker is in the mail as I type this.
> 
> Enjoy curtousy of your local AAA participants.



Laugh it up HF.....but I wouldn't be laughing if the thing I worshiped made Hitler look like Mother Theresa.


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## TTom (Aug 30, 2011)

Had to go watch the 'You Tube' of that scene to remember it and figure out why it might bring it to your mind.

I can see why it might be a frame of reference for some folks.

Pain coping mechanisms, and trances, and altered states, brought on by pain. Yep a frame of reference that fits my practices for many people.


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

TTom said:


> Had to go watch the 'You Tube' of that scene to remember it and figure out why it might bring it to your mind.
> 
> I can see why it might be a frame of reference for some folks.
> 
> Pain coping mechanisms, and trances, and altered states, brought on by pain. Yep a frame of reference that fits my practices for many people.



Its a great scene, wish I could link it, but I do not think the mods would approve.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Laugh it up HF.....but I wouldn't be laughing if the thing I worshiped made Hitler look like Mother Theresa.



Don't you see the least bit of irony in your comparison?  To contrast Hitler, generally regarded as the most evil man in history, you pick ... _a Christian!_

You didn't pick a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Jew.  Instead, you picked a woman who devoted her life to _Jesus Christ_ and who demostrated her _Christian_ faith by serving her fellow man in the armpit of the world.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> Don't you see the least bit of irony in your comparison?  To contrast Hitler, generally regarded as the most evil man in history, you pick ... _a Christian!_
> 
> You didn't pick a Buddhist, a Muslim, or a Jew.  Instead, you picked a woman who devoted her life to _Jesus Christ_ and who demostrated her _Christian_ faith by serving her fellow man in the armpit of the world.



I don't see her as anything other than good.......I don't label people with religion.
They are either good or bad.....and your god was the worst.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

I see irony. That doesn't mean that christians can't appear to be nice, caring and loving.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

"I will not destroy it for ten's sake."
I guess God couldn't find even ten good Sodomites because he decides to kill them all in Genesis 19. Too bad Abraham didn't ask God about the children. Why not save them? If Abraham could find 10 good children, toddlers, infants, or babies, would God spare the city? Apparently not. God doesn't give a Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ----Edited to Remove Profanity ---- about children. 

Here was your merciful god


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I don't see her as anything other than good.......I don't label people with religion.
> They are either good or bad.....and your god was the worst.



If not for her religion, you would never have heard of her.  She is known throughout the world for her love and devotion to "the worst" god, as you put it.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> If not for her religion, you would never have heard of her.  She is known throughout the world for her love and devotion to "the worst" god, as you put it.



Is he talking about Jesus?


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> If not for her religion, you would never have heard of her.  She is known throughout the world for her love and devotion to "the worst" god, as you put it.



Are you saying Mother Tereasa would not have been good without christianity? Was she a good person that was christian, or was she a person that was good becuase she _was_ a christian?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm sure the fact that she was a great woman and that she was a woman of faith go hand-in-hand.   Most would agree that her beliefs fueled the love she had for humanity.


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Are you saying Mother Tereasa would not have been good without christianity?



I'm saying that she did what she did because she was a Christian.  There are certainly good people who are not Christians.  I just thought it was interesting that bad0351 did not choose any of them to contrast with Hitler.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> If not for her religion, you would never have heard of her.  She is known throughout the world for her love and devotion to "the worst" god, as you put it.



There are 10s of thousands of people you will never hear of that do as good in this world.
And only because they know it's right....not to serve some make believe god.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

Possibly... probably. But what if she had other beliefs but the same love for humanity. Would she then not be well know or looked upon with some similar adoration?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

I try to give to the poor people for love what the rich could get for money. No, I wouldn't touch a leper for a thousand pounds; yet I willingly cure him for the love of God.

Mother Teresa 


I think this shows why she did what she did...


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> There are 10s of thousands of people you will never hear of that do as good in this world.
> And only because they know it's right....not to serve some make believe god.



I'd bet any amount of money that 99% of those "10s of thousands" were religious.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I'm sure the fact that she was a great woman and that she was a woman of faith go hand-in-hand.   Most would agree that her beliefs fueled the love she had for humanity.



I don't believe that at all......are you saying the only reason she did the things she did was to please a god?

She would have been the same person with or without .


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I don't believe that at all......are you saying the only reason she did the things she did was to please a god?
> 
> She would have been the same person with or without .




No, it's probably not the ONLY reason, but I'm sure it was the main reason she did as much as she did.    She was a standout, and it was because she loved God....


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

One last Mother Teresa quote....

There is always the danger that we may just do the work for the sake of the work. This is where the respect and the love and the devotion come in - that we do it to God, to Christ, and _that's why we try to do it as beautifully as possible._
Mother Teresa


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

So right, she may have attributed her work to that... but what if she didn't. What if she attributed it to another god or just that it made her feel good. Would she be less of a figure to the world as a whole?


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## vowell462 (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> Vowell......what's your story?    We need some 'balance' in this thread you started!   lol



Sorry. Just now getting a chance to chime in. Busy time of year for me.

My parents had me a little late in thier marriage. I guess you could call me the "oops" child. However, I couldnt have asked for a better set. My father retired from the Army as a full Colonel when I was 12. He spent 26 yrs in, including 2 in Vietnam leading men in the jungle. Even has two silver stars and a bronze. Nonetheless, he was a history major from the University of Alabama. Since I was 12, he pretty much raised me and spent alot of time with me. By the time I was 14, I could tell you about any event in the civil war or the war of 1812. But unlike most of my peers, I couldnt hold a conversation about the internal combustion engine ( and still can't). And he grew up in Eight Mile Alabama and was a southern baptist until he went to college.

Mom works in a Methodist church and still does to this day at 68 yrs old. She is a strong believer and gets mad at me when I ask her questions.

Anyway, my parents made a decision to not indoctrinate us children. They felt strongly about letting us find out everything on our own. When I was 14, I had a good friend ask me to join him at the local baptist church. I must say, four the next 5 yrs I spent alot of time at the church, and felt I had a personal relationship with god, and believed with all my might in the bible. Then it happened.

A year into my local community college ( yes, thats right, community college. Trust me, Thanksgiving sucks being around a mother, father, and a brother with masters from The University of Alabama) I started digging into more about the religion itself. Always found it hard to understand some of the bible, but never knew much about the history. After learning about how late the books were written, the inqusition, more and more about the old testament, my mind started to drift in the direction of " man, we dont know anything"! So for the next few years I started educating myself and continue to this day about the history of the religion. And I cant help but question.

Several years later I read Chariots of the Gods. And it really made me think about the possibilities of how we got  here, and really resonated with me. I wont say i firmly believe we came from or were visitd by extraterestrials, but I will say the so called evidence is very compelling....to me.

Today, I must say that I consider myself agnostic. I believe that we have no idea how we got here and I dont think weve found the answer yet. However, I will say that I dont believe the answers are in the Christian bible. I think it is a man made religion and that is it. Having said that, I certainly dont try and knock anyone who does believe. I feel like I understand why. I spent a long time believing in the warm fuzzy feeling I had. 

Even though I dont post as much as some of you guys, Im kinda addicted to this forum and feel I learn alot from it. I like listening to all sides. Is there a god, I dont know..maybe. Who knows?


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## TheBishop (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I'm saying that she did what she did because she was a Christian.  There are certainly good people who are not Christians.  I just thought it was interesting that bad0351 did not choose any of them to contrast with Hitler.



So your saying if she was jewish she wouldn't have done those things? She only did those becuase she was a christian, and not becuase she was a good person?


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> So right, she may have attributed her work to that... but what if she didn't. What if she attributed it to another god or just that it made her feel good. Would she be less of a figure to the world as a whole?



I believe you could be right....that she could be just as devoted to another god...but to me that's irrelevant.   It's the fact that her religious faith is what's driving her....and that she wouldn't be as world renowned with just her built-in goodness.    Without faith, she wouldn't have been as devoted.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

Here is a quote for you.....since we are quoting people and things.

Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . .


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I believe you could be right....that she could be just as devoted to another god...but to me that's irrelevant.   It's the fact that her religious faith is what's driving her....and that she wouldn't be as world renowned with just her built-in goodness.    Without faith, she wouldn't have been as devoted.



I find it disconcerting that you think someone could not be devoted to good without the belief in a god.


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## BANDERSNATCH (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> I find it disconcerting that you think someone could not be devoted to good without the belief in a god.



I just think it would be RARE to be devoted to good without some kind of faith.   

Maybe someone could provide an example of an atheist that was as devoted to good as Mother Teresa....


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Ezekiel 9:6 "Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women . .



I'd like that tattoed on my thigh.  It'll go well with this H.L. Mencken quote I have across my back:

_"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."_


----------



## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I just think it would be RARE to be devoted to good without some kind of faith.
> 
> Maybe someone could provide an example of an atheist that was as devoted to good as Mother Teresa....



I'll find you an athiest if you find me another christian.


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## Sterlo58 (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I believe you could be right....that she could be just as devoted to another god...but to me that's irrelevant.   It's the fact that her religious faith is what's driving her....and that she wouldn't be as world renowned with just her built-in goodness.    Without faith, she wouldn't have been as devoted.



I disagree...I know several close friends who are not religious people but have devoted enormous amounts of time and resources to causes that are charitable. It was done out of compassion for others and not out of faith in God or a need to please God.


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## bad0351 (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd like that tattoed on my thigh.  It'll go well with this H.L. Mencken quote I have across my back:
> 
> _Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats._


----------



## bullethead (Aug 30, 2011)

BANDERSNATCH said:


> I just think it would be RARE to be devoted to good without some kind of faith.
> 
> Maybe someone could provide an example of an atheist that was as devoted to good as Mother Teresa....



Don't hate the poster...hate the website:
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2008/05/mother-teresa.html


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## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> So your saying if she was jewish she wouldn't have done those things?



No, I'm not saying that at all.




TheBishop said:


> She only did those becuase she was a christian, and not becuase she was a good person?



In her case, it was clearly her Christian faith that motivated her.


----------



## Sterlo58 (Aug 30, 2011)

vowell462 said:


> Sorry. Just now getting a chance to chime in. Busy time of year for me.
> 
> My parents had me a little late in thier marriage. I guess you could call me the "oops" child. However, I couldnt have asked for a better set. My father retired from the Army as a full Colonel when I was 12. He spent 26 yrs in, including 2 in Vietnam leading men in the jungle. Even has two silver stars and a bronze. Nonetheless, he was a history major from the University of Alabama. Since I was 12, he pretty much raised me and spent alot of time with me. By the time I was 14, I could tell you about any event in the civil war or the war of 1812. But unlike most of my peers, I couldnt hold a conversation about the internal combustion engine ( and still can't). And he grew up in Eight Mile Alabama and was a southern baptist until he went to college.
> 
> ...



My story is a bit different. I was raised in the church and was expected to just believe without question. Even as a young child the bible did not ring true or make logical sense to me. It was more like an odd sort of fairy tail. I pretended to believe and went through the motions for a long time. I do not believe the bible is the absolute word of God. On the other hand I am not convinced that evolution is the answer either. I simply do not know and do not feel uncomfortable not knowing. I feel comfortable finally being able to say without guilt that I don't know or necessarily believe in the bible as the word of God. I live and raise my family in a good moral fashion. I believe the ten commandments are a great set of rules to live by. Were they handed down by God ? I don't think so.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

centerpin fan said:


> I'd like that tattoed on my thigh.  It'll go well with this H.L. Mencken quote I have across my back:
> 
> _"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats."_



what about every god? Do they get that temptation?


----------



## centerpin fan (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> what about every god? Do they get that temptation?



The Greek gods?  Definitely.  

As for the rest, I couldn't say.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

Sterlo58 said:


> My story is a bit different. I was raised in the church and was expected to just believe without question. Even as a young child the bible did not ring true or make logical sense to me. It was more like an odd sort of fairy tail. I pretended to believe and went through the motions for a long time. I do not believe the bible is the absolute word of God. On the other hand I am not convinced that evolution is the answer either. I simply do not know and do not feel uncomfortable not knowing. I feel comfortable finally being able to say without guilt that I don't know or necessarily believe in the bible as the word of God. I live and raise my family in a good moral fashion. I believe the ten commandments are a great set of rules to live by. Were they handed down by God ? I don't think so.



So maybe you believe the 7 commandments are a great set of rules to live by     Or whatever number of them, not 10.


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## vowell462 (Aug 30, 2011)

Sterlo58 said:


> My story is a bit different. I was raised in the church and was expected to just believe without question. Even as a young child the bible did not ring true or make logical sense to me. It was more like an odd sort of fairy tail. I pretended to believe and went through the motions for a long time. I do not believe the bible is the absolute word of God. On the other hand I am not convinced that evolution is the answer either. I simply do not know and do not feel uncomfortable not knowing. I feel comfortable finally being able to say without guilt that I don't know or necessarily believe in the bible as the word of God. I live and raise my family in a good moral fashion. I believe the ten commandments are a great set of rules to live by. Were they handed down by God ? I don't think so.


Good point. I think they are a good set of morals as well. The precepts are great.


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## Sterlo58 (Aug 30, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> So maybe you believe the 7 commandments are a great set of rules to live by     Or whatever number of them, not 10.



Yep you got me . It would actually be the six commandments.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 30, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Without a creator...how did man become inherintly "good".  I'm gathering from this quote that man is good when left alone by religion and government.  Correct?  I would think that if we were randomly evolved, survival of the fittest would require us be naturally selfish and only self-serving (for the purpose of survival).  How did man become "good" without a creator?



So chimps must have had a creator if we did, but do they have knowledge of that? Do they worship, follow and live for a creator? I was always taught as a child that all dogs DON'T go to heaven, that none of them do. They were created differently and don't have souls. I don't know where this came from in the bible, but heard it in sermons and from my parents. 

I've seen plenty of stories of animals doing good. For their own kind, other animals and for people. Why do they do good? Why do mother animals show affection to their offspring even if it doesn't directly affect their ability to survive? Why did that dog lay at his lost marine's casket? Why have dolphins saved people in the ocean? Do my dogs show extra affection when they see sadness because it makes god happy? 

Let's go back to a basic that anyone should be familiar with, chimps picking bugs from their peers. Self gain? A little tiny snack, maybe. Who does it benefit more? ANYONE that thinks they, themselves, do good purely to serve god is satisfied themselves because they are serving god. The intention may be for god, but there is some self gain. So the chimps, why do they do good? 

I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone here has an argument that some animals have a special relationship with the god of the bible that drives them to do good. It's inherent to life, even when survival is, or is not, in the balance.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 31, 2011)

> Laugh it up HF.....but I wouldn't be laughing if the thing I worshiped made Hitler look like Mother Theresa.




Don't worry my man.  I'm not laughing at you.....oh wait...I guess I am.

Lighten up brother.  You don't believe in God.  Good for you.  Just try not to be so angry that I do.


We're gonna have fun in here, you and me.  Just curious, I get that you hate God because he's seen fit to kill....and do it in grand fashion.  Are there other attributes that cause you to hate him or just the "killing" thing?


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## Huntinfool (Aug 31, 2011)

> So chimps must have had a creator if we did, but do they have knowledge of that? Do they worship, follow and live for a creator? I was always taught as a child that all dogs DON'T go to heaven, that none of them do. They were created differently and don't have souls. I don't know where this came from in the bible, but heard it in sermons and from my parents.



Man is the only part of creation that was imprinted with the image of God...and therefore the only part with the knowledge of God.  It's in Genesis (just for reference).



> I SERIOUSLY doubt anyone here has an argument that some animals have a special relationship with the god of the bible that drives them to do good. It's inherent to life, even when survival is, or is not, in the balance.



You won't get that argument from me.  I suppose a good question would be, have you ever heard of a chimp bringing a meal to an injured lion?

The examples you gave from the animal kingdom are all entirely self-serving.  Just because they happen to benefit another animal does not make them "good" in the sense of "for the good of another".  They pick bugs for food, to prevent disease and to ensure the survival of the group....not because God has somehow imprinted a desire to glorify him.

Anyway...I don't expect you to agree with that.  But, it goes back to Genesis.  The image of God is on/in mankind and mankind only.  

Why does your dog lay on your lap when you're sad?  Because he loves you.  He's attached to you.  You raised him and you feed him....but do you think he would cross the road to lay on your lap if he'd never seen you before and found you to be in need?  That is the question.

Is he comforting you?  I have no idea.  Never spoken with my dog.  But it sure seems like it doesn't it?


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 31, 2011)

How does it serve a dolphin to fight off a shark that's attacking a person? Never seen it myself, but heard of it before. That's like crossing the road to feed the hiyena that's being attacked by a lion.

I definitely do not agree that any of those things are entirely self serving. Nor do I believe that someone doing something for god is entirely god serving. YOU get pleasure and internal reward when you know you're doing god's work.


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## Huntinfool (Aug 31, 2011)

I honestly don't know.  My opinion on that doesn't hold much water since I know nothing about dolphins.  But....my opinion is that it has more to do with instinct than compassion.  But that's just my opinion. 

It's entirely possible that dolphins protect humans or other animals sometimes....I guess.

Of COURSE I get pleasure and internal reward when I know I'm doing God's work.  That's what he designed me for.


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## TripleXBullies (Aug 31, 2011)

Right... If you're designed for it, it's similar in some ways to an instict. Just as being good is inheret to life - an instict. That's not to say it doesn't serve another purpose for you - to serve god.


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## bad0351 (Aug 31, 2011)

Huntinfool said:


> Don't worry my man.  I'm not laughing at you.....oh wait...I guess I am.
> 
> Lighten up brother.  You don't believe in God.  Good for you.  Just try not to be so angry that I do.
> 
> ...



Hey HF......I'm sure we will have some fun.
And no, thats not why I hate god.....as we go along here I'm sure the reasons will come out.


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## stringmusic (Sep 1, 2011)

TripleXBullies said:


> Right... If you're designed for it, it's similar in some ways to an instict. *Just as being good is inheret to life - an instict. *That's not to say it doesn't serve another purpose for you - to serve god.



Why do you think so may people fight this particular instinct off.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 1, 2011)

I would think that everyone has it they just choose to let other things get in the way. Was Hitler terrible? I believe so. Was he ever good to anything or anyone? I have to say probably.


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## bfriendly (Sep 11, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> I grew up a catholic, church and sunday school every week. I was devout.  In more than just religion.  My life motto was god, country, and family, in that order.  Somewhere in my late teens I began to think more deeply, and question everything.  The more I looked the more I saw the obvious, and what I found, I found revolting.  I became disgusted at religion, and government, realizing they do nothing to free the spirits of man.  On the contrary the are both methods to control men.  Religion through indoctrination, and fear, and government through coersion and force.
> 
> I realized at some point that IF there was a god, it certainly would not approve of invoking itself as a means to control its creations.   I found it nauseating that so many claimed exclusivity,  when even closely related religions could not find cohesiveness.  I thought it silly and down right naieve that so many thought they had it right, and would win the prize of afterlife, when they are such a minority.
> 
> ...



First time to the AAA forum.............WOW

Not so much JUST this post, but a bunch of them.............WOW!

When I read this one, I wondered if the poster knows how much he said here...........

First off, to put God in the same boat with Religion and Government?  No wonder you got Nauseated!  (They make me sick too)

God is almighty and the only thing Pure; Man, Religion, Surely Government, are FAR from Pure........and for THAT, all you have to do is look!

If someone calls himself Any kind of Perfect Christian, you can bet he is not as we are all sinners..........ALL of US! 

Dont know about Exclusivity, but if that means 1 God, I agree, if it means people, nope.
However, Thanks to the Lord, we can ALL be forgiven!

BTW-we should Forgive others too!  What a Novel concept huh


As far as the Unknowable thing, its kind of like Bigfoot..........You can either believe or not.........BUT if you see him, you will have no doubts, you will truly believe.

I aint see a Bigfoot yet, so maybe he aint real, but I have been touched by God many times in my life and there is No Doubt he IS REAL!


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## bfriendly (Sep 11, 2011)

Almost forgot, your life Motto was correct and I didnt see Religion Nor Government in it


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## bfriendly (Sep 11, 2011)

bad0351 said:


> Hey HF......I'm sure we will have some fun.
> And no, thats not why I hate god.....as we go along here I'm sure the reasons will come out.



Why would you "Hate" Anything?  I have always seen Hatred as a Poison......It makes me kind of sad to see folks who live with Hate............I get as mad as anyone, but for some reason, as soon as I forgive, I feel better...........


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## TheBishop (Sep 13, 2011)

bfriendly said:


> First time to the AAA forum.............WOW
> 
> Not so much JUST this post, but a bunch of them.............WOW!



Congrats on the  WOWS.



> When I read this one, I wondered if the poster knows how much he said here...........



I know exactly what I said.



> First off, to put God in the same boat with Religion and Government?  No wonder you got Nauseated!  (They make me sick too)
> 
> God is almighty and the only thing Pure; Man, Religion, Surely Government, are FAR from Pure........and for THAT, all you have to do is look!



No where in my post did I denounce od, nor did I imply that I place god on the same level of man made institutions.  I just stated I began to question things I been taught about such concepts.   What I found led me away from the propaganda that I was raised to believe.  



> If someone calls himself Any kind of Perfect Christian, you can bet he is not as we are all sinners..........ALL of US!



I am not a christian.  I am not a sinner. Your concept of sin and mine do not align, so I would appreciate if you would exclude me from the "ALL of US" category.    




> Dont know about Exclusivity, but if that means 1 God, I agree, if it means people, nope.
> However, Thanks to the Lord, we can ALL be forgiven
> 
> BTW-we should Forgive others too!  What a Novel concept huh



Eclusivity = sole ownership of the truth.  Which most effective religions claim. Which= ignorance in IMHO. 



> As far as the Unknowable thing, its kind of like Bigfoot..........You can either believe or not.........BUT if you see him, you will have no doubts, you will truly believe.
> 
> I aint see a Bigfoot yet, so maybe he aint real, but I have been touched by God many times in my life and there is No Doubt he IS REAL!



Bigfoots name is not invoked to control the lives of others.  
Bigfoot hunters do not pursue others to live according to their doctrines, god beleivers do.  Bigfooter's  do not try to influence society,  believers....well no need to go into that discussion again.

I'm glad you believe what you have felt is real.  Welcome to the AAA forum, were you will find plenty o WOW's and dissenting opinions.


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## TheBishop (Sep 13, 2011)

bfriendly said:


> Almost forgot, your life Motto was correct and I didnt see Religion Nor Government in it



Now it's Family, Friends and Freedom.


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## TripleXBullies (Sep 13, 2011)

TheBishop said:


> Bigfoots name is not invoked to control the lives of others.
> Bigfoot hunters do not pursue others to live according to their doctrines, god beleivers do.  Bigfooter's  do not try to influence society,  believers....well no need to go into that discussion again.



I don't know specifically that bigfoot or any of his compadres were, but I have heard of other similar legends that have compelling evidence that they (the legends) WERE created to influence society. 

I wasn't intending to refer to JC, but sure, him too.


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