# Is "to lay down one's life" about physical death?



## gordon 2 (Dec 17, 2010)

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.


Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


In the context of these passages what is the life to lay down, to loose, to find? Often I fear that some identify these to the "ultimate" sacrafice of a person in the military or in law inforcement, or of a parent or of a hero for the security and safety of other family or individuals. This of course means physical death and suggests a life happily gained in the beyond for the act.

On the other hand is this what scripture means in a "spiritual" sense?

Matthew 19:24" And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." With this often quoted bit I am often reminded that our spiritual outlook is too simple. Because we are weathy in salvation we view life, the loss of life, and the finding of life as the life we live  and physical death and the life to follow. I don't think this is correct in a christian sense. 

I think what the passages are about is getting out of our comfort zones. It is about uprooting our "ways of life" and literally rooting them in the Good News by actions which seem counter to common sense even. Am I willing to sacrafice my reputation or my career, to go it alone, to forgo monetary reward, to risk assets to DO what is right according to my talents and the will of God?

Matthew 10:39 "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." Am I ready to sacrafice the day to day life I know for what Jesus calls the Kingdom of God? And by sacrafice here I mean doing something else, totally different. I am afraid that we are too weathy to do so. As a matter of fact the only opposing thing we conceptualize to the life we know is physical death. I suggest that though we are proud of being saved, we are yet blind and do not see in a more mature spiritual sense.

What do you think, ideas? Am I in the thickets? Lost? In the context of these passages what are the lives to loose, to lay down, to find? What say you?


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## gtparts (Dec 17, 2010)

While it may be true in the context of giving one's life in physical death for another, it is quite clear that in a larger sense, it addresses the sacrificial living that serves others. If one has laid his or her life down for the sake of Christ, then it is truly as Paul said, "...Christ living in me...", and not being in possession and control of ones own life.


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## Gabassmaster (Dec 17, 2010)

We have been bought with a price (Christs life) We belong to him not ourselves.


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## formula1 (Dec 17, 2010)

When I read your thoughts, I first thought of this passage:

Romans 6
16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. 19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed?(AM) For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

And I'll make one comment here, becoming slaves to righteousness in fact causes a death to ourselves for the sake of Christ, though as yet we are not physically dead in the flesh.

I also thought of this passage.

John 3
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

A thought I have is that being born again implies a death, to one's self and to sin, for the sake of Christ.

Another scripture:
Romans 6
10For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

I guess what I am saying as a new creation in Christ, we are dead, though only in the sense as 'dead to sin' and 'slaves to righteousness'. And in the end, as some do die physically for the cause of Christ, death has no power over us anyone, as we are alive unto God forevermore.

This is a great topic and I thank you for bringing it up.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2010)

I think your scripture is speaking of two different subject.

1.  The giving of Jesus' life for our.(and our subsequent willingness to do the same for others).

2.  Our giving all of ourselves to Jesus Christ.  Our bodies continue to live, but we've given it to Christ.


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## gtparts (Dec 17, 2010)

"He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose." 

           - Jim Elliot - 

Oct. 8, 1927 - Jan. 8, 1956


(Hesitated to post the January date, since it really is somewhat meaningless to Jim, who is more alive today than any who are still here.)


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2010)

gtparts said:


> "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose."
> 
> - Jim Elliot -
> 
> ...




I agree.  
I think every time I've ever read that statement I've re-analyzed it all over again.
It really is a powerful statement.


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## Israel (Dec 17, 2010)

We would be remiss to believe that only on a certain day did Jesus "take up his cross".
Even from the scriptures we know that He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Not seeking to be right in ones own eyes, not seeking ones own way above the will of God, not seeking one's own words above submission to the spirit. All of these require a death...a death to what we would say, a death to what we would feel, a death to how we would judge.
 2Co 4:10  Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
And also:
2Co 4:11  For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. (This is the work of the Spirit.)

For this purpose:
2Co 4:12  So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 

God's will is ALWAYS "not my will be done"...my will and God's will do not occasionally cross like a service road going under an expressway wending it's way toward some destination, sometimes intersecting.
If we will believe we have been sent...as the Father had sent Jesus, then we will come to know the perfect frustration of our own will, so that the glorious manifestation of his will might be made known.
Maybe there are some perfect at new birth who are instantly in tune, to those I say, you are blessed.
and maybe there are those who, through many trials, discover God's will does not bend to our best intentions and wishes, and to those I say, you are blessed.
However one comes to understand the glorious, ineffable, unutterably perfect will of God, you are blessed.


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## Ronnie T (Dec 17, 2010)

Israel said:


> We would be remiss to believe that only on a certain day did Jesus "take up his cross".
> Even from the scriptures we know that He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
> Not seeking to be right in ones own eyes, not seeking ones own way above the will of God, not seeking one's own words above submission to the spirit. All of these require a death...a death to what we would say, a death to what we would feel, a death to how we would judge.
> 2Co 4:10  Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
> ...



Very good words Israel.
Try as we do, we still often live like Pharisees, trying to figure out what we have to do and what we don't have to do.
That isn't what 'giving ourselves to Christ' is.

What God says is what God says.
What we say is pig manure.


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## gordon 2 (Dec 19, 2010)

Ronnie T said:


> Very good words Israel.
> Try as we do, we still often live like Pharisees, trying to figure out what we have to do and what we don't have to do.
> That isn't what 'giving ourselves to Christ' is.
> 
> ...



Can you be more specific here brother... By "trying to figure out what we have to do and what we don't have to  do in the light of what God says is giving ourselves to Christ, but "trying to figure out what we have to do and what we don't have to do according our(man's) usual ways is not decipleship. Do I get that right or are you meaning something else?


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## Ronnie T (Dec 19, 2010)

gordon 2 said:


> Can you be more specific here brother... By "trying to figure out what we have to do and what we don't have to  do in the light of what God says is giving ourselves to Christ, but "trying to figure out what we have to do and what we don't have to do according our(man's) usual ways is not decipleship. Do I get that right or are you meaning something else?



I think you and I agree.  Let me put it this way.
I see a lot of Christians trying to find the line that separates the 'saved and forgiven' from the 'lost and condemned'.
Disciples don't look for that line.  A disciple wants, no thrives, to give every bit of themselves to their discipleship to Jesus Christ.  
Giving ones self to Christ is about dying to your own will and replacing it with the complete, total will of God.
You'll never hear that person ask:  "Do I have to do this particular thing to go to heaven."  
Disciples do everything possible, not what is only required.  And there's a huge difference.


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