# GOD DOES NOT PREDESTINATE ANY PARTICULAR PERSON TO BE SAVED OR LOST



## Banjo Picker (Oct 8, 2022)

*MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT*

*If man is not a free moral agent, THEN GOD CAN BE HELD ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SIN, REBELLION, SICKNESS, AND ALL THE EFFECTS OF SIN AS WELL AS FOR THE DA-MNATION OF MEN AND ANGELS, as unconditional security men teach.*

*One of these teachers says, " No man is an absolutely free moral agent, for he is either led away by the devil against his will or he is a servant of Christ. I do not simply choose to keep myself in a place where I am secure. God has chosen me, and I am secure in His choice." *

*Another says, "Ownership means lordship. That which is owned has no right of will contrary to the will of the owner. . . . Adam was the only true free moral agent. When he sinned, he lost free moral agency. No man ever wills to be born in the human race, and equally impotent is he to will to separate himself from the human race. . . . Yet it is argued that man can be separate himself from God. . . . It was not his own will to be born again, but the will of God (Jn. 1:13) . . . Man has little to do with that as he had to do with the physical birth.*

*As it is impossible for man to separate himself from the human race, so it is equally impossible for him, by free act, to separate himself from God's kingdom. There is no such thing as free moral agency in the kingdom of God. . . . To say that a man can will to go away from God and be lost is to make the sovereign grace of God subject to the will of man.*

*These statements simply mean that MAN HAS NO POWER TO CHOOSE TO SERVE GOD AND CONSEQUENTLY NO RESPONSIBILITY IN ANY SENSE IN SERVING GOD OR SATAN OR IN BEING SAVED OR LOST, that it is up to God to choose each one or not, that those God sees fit to choose are secure by His own choice and not by man having anything to do with it, that God is a respecter of persons in not choosing some and in not making all men secure and in saving all men alike, that God is responsible for the sins and ****ation of the lost as well as for the security of the few pets some say He delights in choosing, that some men can never be saved due to the fact God has not chosen them to be saved and to as secure as the others, and that God is responsible for all the sins and sufferings and curses of the universe.*

*If Adam was responsible for his fall from grace or favor with God, if he chose to fall from his former state, if grace and divine nature did not keep him saved and holy, AND IF GOD LEFT IT UP TO THE FREE WILL OF MAN IN THE BEGINNING, THEN IT IS THE SAME WITH ALL MEN TODAY. There is no passage, and no one has ever given one, that proves that man is not a free moral agent all the days of his life, whether he is saved or unsaved.  *


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## gemcgrew (Oct 8, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *If man is not a free moral agent, THEN GOD CAN BE HELD ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SIN, REBELLION, SICKNESS, AND ALL THE EFFECTS OF SIN AS WELL AS FOR THE ****ATION OF MEN AND ANGELS, as unconditional security men teach.*


This only indicates a very low opinion of the God of the Bible, and an attempt to impose your standard upon Him.

There is no other power in existence, that God is accountable to.

"He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and _among_ the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" 

Paul addressed all of your silly notions in Romans 9.


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## Big7 (Oct 8, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> This only indicates a very low opinion of the God of the Bible, and an attempt to impose your standard upon Him.
> 
> There is no other power in existence, that God is accountable to.
> 
> ...


He reads and discerns The Bible- all by himself.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 8, 2022)

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS."

I don't think you can get any more predestinate than that.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 8, 2022)

Man is absolutely a free moral agent and serves the devil or God as he freely chooses. If man wants to turn to God from the devil he is always free to do so, and if he wants to turn from God to the devil he is always fee to do so. Neither master can force man to obey him if man does not freely choose to do so. Man has the free choice until death, of serving either.

Man is morally obligated by his moral make-up to serve righteousness, live holy, and consecrate himself to the same end that God is consecrated the highest good of all. Man is not forced to live holy. He is free to consecrate to the end that the devil is consecrated a life of self-gratification. He is free to choose either end and to use the means of attaining to the end he chooses. He is not forced to choose either end or the means of attaining to that end.

A saved man has the same power of choice as he had before salvation. His desires are changed in salvation, but he can again permit the same old desires to take hold of him again and the flesh can gain ascendency over him again and he can choose to live in the old sins again. If he chooses to sin again he incurs the same death penalty and will be da-mned as much as if he had never been saved (Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 6:14-13; 8:1-13; Gal. 6:7, 8; Jas. 5:19, 20).

In matters outside the moral realm in which man has no choice, such as the case where man is not free to choose to be born, such has nothing to do with free moral agency which every man has when he is born. He is, as he grows up free to choose his own destiny by the choice of the life, he lives in serving God or Satan. It is only when man becomes a free moral agent that he is held responsible.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 8, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> This only indicates a very low opinion of the God of the Bible, and an attempt to impose your standard upon Him.
> 
> There is no other power in existence, that God is accountable to.
> 
> ...



Matt. 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide _is_ the gate, and broad _is_ the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go there in:
7:14 Because strait _is_ the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Man is absolutely a free moral agent





Banjo Picker said:


> Man is morally obligated by his moral make-up



Stop


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## SemperFiDawg (Oct 9, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *MAN IS A FREE MORAL AGENT*
> 
> *If man is not a free moral agent, THEN GOD CAN BE HELD ENTIRELY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL SIN, REBELLION, SICKNESS, AND ALL THE EFFECTS OF SIN AS WELL AS FOR THE ****ATION OF MEN AND ANGELS, as unconditional security men teach.*
> 
> ...



Must be Groundhog Day already: same subject, same cast with SURPRISE!!!!, predictably the same arrogant insults.  ..


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 9, 2022)

To say that man has no will power when he chooses to go back into sin and becomes overpowered by sin and Satan is to state a falsehood. This does not prove he is not a free moral agent. It proves man is a free agent or he could not have chosen to sin again. When chooses to yield to sin again, Satan can make him captive and can more or less dominate his life, depending on how much the man submits to him. Man can completely submit to demons and become a total slave to them. He can at any moment turn to God by his own free will and defeat the same spirit-rebels by the help of God. If he had no choice power to live right and turn to God, then one might argue he is not a free agent in the moral realm. Because the Allies overcame the Axis nations in the last World War is no proof that the Axis did not have will power. We were stronger than they were, and we were help by God in their defeat. Their resistance as well as their choice in making war and in choosing to surrender proves they had will power.

If man resist sin at all it proves will power on his part. If he is exercising will in the least degree concerning moral things it proves he is a free moral agent. To be a servant of Christ does not do away with will power. It proves that the man does have such power, or he could not have chosen to turn from Satan and sin. To believe as the above men do would make God as unjust tyrant holding slaves in greater bondage than Satan ever did. It is Satan who tries to enslave men and control their choices. God always gives them freedom of action to serve Him. When they voluntarily turn to God then He delivers them from Satan and sin and permits perfect freedom of action as to whether they will continue to serve Him or go back into sin. It is true men are spoken of as servants to God, but it is voluntary service. There is nothing arbitrary about it on God's part.

No freedom of choice to come into existence and no freedom of choice to become nothing again is naturally true, for man is an eternal creature and cannot, will to cease to exist. This does not disprove free moral agency for man, who is always free to choose the highest good for himself and others or to choose selfish ends contrary to the highest good.


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 10, 2022)

If God didn’t send his only son to die on the cross for our sins as predestined in the scripture the rest just doesn’t matter.

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 10, 2022)

If we admit actions have certain effects, we should also admit that these actions are free moral actions. If man had no free actions concerning moral living and God alone had the choice in man's actions, then He would be responsible for all evil and its effects. God would be responsible for sin and could not justly judge man for his actions. He would also be responsible for death, the penalty for sin, and could not rightly execute the sentence of the broken law.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 11, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> This only indicates a very low opinion of the God of the Bible, and an attempt to impose your standard upon Him.
> 
> There is no other power in existence, that God is accountable to.



Amen!


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## hummerpoo (Oct 11, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Man is absolutely a free moral agent and serves the devil or God as he freely chooses. If man wants to turn to God from the devil he is always free to do so, and if he wants to turn from God to the devil he is always fee to do so. Neither master can force man to obey him if man does not freely choose to do so. Man has the free choice until death, of serving either.



Three Masters, the Chief of which is Man Self.


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## Madman (Oct 12, 2022)

Most likely a thread killer but I believe a question needs to be asked, what is meant by “predestination”? 

 Are we predestined for God’s grace, or for for glory?  

Why does the doctrine of “election” always seem to be attached to the doctrine of “predestination”?  

Even some Calvinist believe free will actions are determined by God applying or withholding saving grace.  I see it as a way for man to believe in double predestination without saying so.

Luther held this view, much like man being a horse, his destination being determined by the rider, God, or Satan.

So much talking around each other.


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## bobocat (Oct 12, 2022)

Only those In Christ are predestined or elected. Leave the Calvinist to believe God so hated the world. A Calvinist must put on his Calvinist goggles before misinterpreting scripture. It's a must.


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## formula1 (Oct 12, 2022)

Man cannot know what God can or will do and to try to understand it is foolishness.  Perhaps a little proverbial knowledge would help:

Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the Lord, and turn away from evil.
8 It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones.


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## gordon 2 (Oct 12, 2022)

formula1 said:


> Man cannot know what God can or will do and to try to understand it is foolishness.  Perhaps a little proverbial knowledge would help:
> 
> Proverbs 3
> 5 Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.
> ...



Your point is very interesting. I note you use verse from the Jewish Talmud to shore it up.  Yet the conceptions of God from the Jewish perspective do they apply to the Christian perspective? Or is the God the Christians now know simply is mirror of what the Jews knew? Can Christians prophecy in general now compared to the odd prophets of the Old Testament for example.

For the Jews God's doing was a come and go affair. This God was mostly powerful and distant with the occasional exception. For Christians however is this the case? What does our songs say: "It is no secret ( to us) what God can do what he's done for others he'll  do for you." What does the Good News declare but that we know what is God's will (vision) for all? And our trust not now of a blind faith.

The ideas Predestination and Election and non-elect are they not from the the very understanding man has had of God from the perspective of the God revealed by the intellect long before the Reformation. This god is a God of control, of holding all things together in the world and the cosmos, with purpose mysterious understood by the sensing intellect as it tries to do by casting a net on any object or objects and making it fit together to suit reason and to settle the emotions. The god(s) of the Greeks was-were such god(s) God's understood by the intellect which subjects they predestined or subjugated for their purposes which our Paul butted head with for instance.

Somehow I would like to think that the Christian mystic knows what God wills to do by a shared vision and by that I mean that for the witness of God's glory by the deposit of God heart in man the saint who is able to witness of God's vision. The same might apply for someone who is religious and internalizes the benefits of the Church. ( Our reading of Scripture is very different for the witness of the Holy Spirit, or born again experience or the witness of the Glory, or the Born Again experience... what ever it is named.) In any case in all but a few cases God does not minister to man via the intellect, not in the Church nor in the Mystical experience and so nor is the revelation of his will so ministered. It is not assimilated in the Christian by the human intellect for the most part. Which is why I distrust the Greek way of understanding God. I will agree that a man knows by reason that he is not separate from others even though he can understand himself to be an individual and therefore due this can properly interpret some "parables".


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## gordon 2 (Oct 12, 2022)

Israel said:


> I don't find it a thread killer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




My brother whom I love. " He has abandoned us to our own understandings." That is a mouthful so early in the day.  Don't forget the Church can be added to a good breakfast.  Is our understanding individual and to individuality so abandoned and not communal?

As an aside: Do you think that the Apostles naming of Jesus as Lord was due to the way some understand God's sovereignty today? Their notions of a king, most likely from the prophecy of a Messiah and the revelation of who the Savior from their witness was is somewhat different from the ideas we attach to sovereignty today which is an idea older than Christianity?

Why would it matter that a Messiah to the gentiles be of need for them and in turn that they be charged to evangelize the world if God is sovereign with all controls to act on the present and futures? I suggest, perhaps in error, that the Lord of the Apostles was not the Lord of the Jews nor of the Greeks. Their lord was separated from these for making them and us kin to the royal vision and agents of God's sure purpose for all. Maybe. God was no longer distant and if He had such powers and controls as those prior to Christianity knew than those powers and controls were now in his agents...ah you and all others here. We are witness of the resurrection and that's were we are "headed".


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## Madman (Oct 12, 2022)

Israel said:


> the One from whom his inspiration came is either just as available as ever He has been...or (God forbid!) He has abandoned us to our own understandings.


The art of the rhetorical question.  To which we all know the proper response, but there is more that must be considered in the answer.



Israel said:


> Do you think He knew what we would "come up against" when seeing the apostle's usage...He Himself (the Lord) gave to him?


I believe He "knew", He knows all things, and therefore set in place the perfect one to answer.

"... I will build my Church."

Sometimes I wonder what has happened, G.K. Chesterton makes an observation.

"When a religious scheme is shattered (as
Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it
is not merely the vices that are let loose. The vices
are, indeed, let loose, and they wander and do dam-
age. But the virtues are let loose also; and the vir-
tues wander more wildly, and the virtues do more
terrible damage. The modern world is full of the
old Christian virtues gone mad. The virtues have
gone mad because they have been isolated from
each other and are wandering alone."


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## brutally honest (Oct 12, 2022)

Madman said:


> Sometimes I wonder what has happened, G.K. Chesterton makes an observation.
> 
> "When a religious scheme is shattered (as
> Christianity was shattered at the Reformation), it
> ...



Like that Chesterton quote.  Never heard it put like that.


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## formula1 (Oct 12, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> Your point is very interesting. I note you use verse from the Jewish Talmud to shore it up.  Yet the conceptions of God from the Jewish perspective do they apply to the Christian perspective? Or is the God the Christians now know simply is mirror of what the Jews knew? Can Christians prophecy in general now compared to the odd prophets of the Old Testament for example.
> 
> For the Jews God's doing was a come and go affair. This God was mostly powerful and distant with the occasional exception. For Christians however is this the case? What does our songs say: "It is no secret ( to us) what God can do what he's done for others he'll  do for you." What does the Good News declare but that we know what is God's will (vision) for all? And our trust not now of a blind faith.
> 
> ...



It’s really nothing more than believing all the word of God, then trusting him with the things we do not fully know. And what He needs us to know He will communicate as we need it!


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 12, 2022)

Adam or no other man ever lost the power of choice in the moral realm as long as sanity remained. To lose power to be what man was before the fall does not do away with man's power of choice. This is simply the result of the fall and of a wrong choice. Man is still free to choose God and righteousness and come back to the original state where the effects of the moral fall are erased. Man can be redeemed from the effects of the moral fall and again do from free choice. Being overpowered by sin was a wiling action to begin with or Adam never would have fallen unless God can be blamed for it. Since the fall, it is a willing co-operation with Satan to same end, to gratify self, for one does not have to serve sin and Satan even one day, if he does not choose to do so.

If man never wills to be saved, he will never be saved. this is why some are saved, and some are not saved. IT IS GOD'S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). If God's will is done all will be saved, but God will not and cannot save man until he chooses to be saved and calls upon God. God's plan is to "whosoever will" and God will not operate contrary to His own Word. However, man is not saved by his own choice alone, for there is no saving power in mere choice. Then, too, SALVATION CANNOT BE GIVEN BY GOD WITHOUT MAN'S CHOICE (Mk. 16:15; Jn. 3:15-20; 4:13-22; 14:6; Rom. 1:16; Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 1:9; 5:1; Rev. 22:17). NEITHER CAN MAN CONTINUE TO BE SAVED APART FROM HIS FREE CHOICE (Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:1-13; 2 Tim. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:2; 1 Thess. 3:8; Heb. 10:26-29; 2 Pet. 2:20, 21).

This power of choice on man's part to get saved and keep saved does not make will power more sovereign than God's own power or grace. It simply means that God, as and intelligent being, having made His plan, Which includes free wills for men, granting them the sovereignty of their own wills as to whether they want to be saved or to stay saved by grace or not, God will not break His own law and act contrary to His revealed plan and save or keep men saved contrary to their own choice. If this is God's plan, then for God to arbitrarily force men to be saved or stay saved contrary to their wills would be the most unjust action to take and would make God break His own laws.


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## Madman (Oct 12, 2022)

Israel said:


> I see no question in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


True, a quick read, I incorrectly viewed as  "the One from whom his inspiration came is either just as available as ever He has been...or (God forbid!) Has HE abandoned us to our own understandings". 

My mistake I should have been more careful.

I will return to the point of my remark.  God is available and He has not abandoned us to our own understanding.  He has left his written Word in the care of the Church, He left us his Church for the teaching and edification of the saints, and He has left us His tradition which is passed down through the Bishops just as it has been passed to them.

No we have not been left as orphans.

Is one today presented with public revelation or simply private revelation?  

I wait patiently for the answer to the question that constantly is asked, if the Holy Spirit teaches the truth to the believer, who is correct?
20,000 Christian denominations need to ask.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 12, 2022)

To teach that man has nothing to do in the new birth and that it is entirely up to the choice of God is to make God false according to His own Word. Man must make a choice in his spiritual birth because he is in existence with power to make a free choice, but in the natural birth he was not in existence with power of choice to decide whether he wanted to be born or not. God has told us that anyone who is a respecter of persons is a sinner (Jas. 2:9), and therefore if it is left up to God alone to save some and da-mn some as He sees fit, then He would be a sinner Himself. BUT GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS (Rom. 2:6-16). If man cannot exercise will power in the kingdom of God, and if he cannot sin after being saved, then many Scriptures are false.


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## madsam (Oct 12, 2022)

Drinking that free bubble up and eating that rainbow stew.........


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## hummerpoo (Oct 13, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Adam or no other man ever lost the power of choice in the moral realm as long as sanity remained. To lose power to be what man was before the fall does not do away with man's power of choice. This is simply the result of the fall and of a wrong choice. Man is still free to choose God and righteousness and come back to the original state where the effects of the mora fall are erased. Man can be redeemed from the effects of the moral fall and again do from free choice. Being overpowered by sin was a wiling action to begin with or Adam never would have fallen unless God can be blamed for it. Since the fall, it is a willing co-operation with Satan to same end, to gratify self, for one does not have to serve sin and Satan even one day, if he does not choose to do so.
> 
> If man never wills to be saved, he will never be saved. this is why some are saved, and some are not saved. IT IS GOD'S WILL THAT ALL BE SAVED AND COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9). If God's will is done all will be saved, but God will not and cannot save man until he chooses to be saved and calls upon God. God's plan is to "whosoever will" and God will not operate contrary to His own Word. However, man is not saved by his own choice alone, for there is no saving power in mere choice. Then, too, SALVATION CANNOT BE GIVEN BY GOD WITHOUT MAN'S CHOICE (Mk. 16:15; Jn. 3:15-20; 4:13-22; 14:6; Rom. 1:16; Heb. 7:25; 1 Jn. 1:9; 5:1; Rev. 22:17). NEITHER CAN MAN CONTINUE TO BE SAVED APART FROM HIS FREE CHOICE (Isa. 59:2; Rom. 8:1-13; 2 Tim. 2:12; 1 Cor. 15:2; 1 Thess. 3:8; Heb. 10:26-29; 2 Pet. 2:20, 21).
> 
> This power of choice on man's part to get saved and keep saved does not make will power more sovereign than God's own power or grace. It simply means that God, as and intelligent being, having made His plan, Which includes free wills for men, granting them the sovereignty of their own wills as to whether they want to be saved or to stay saved by grace or not, God will not break His own law and act contrary to His revealed plan and save or keep men saved contrary to their own choice. If this is God's plan, then for God to arbitrarily force men to be saved or stay saved contrary to their wills would be the most unjust action to take and would make God break His own laws.



Without comment on the obvious denial of God's omnipotence, omniscience, immutability, aseity, etc. and equally obvious conflicting statements within the argument; the unstated and unidentified, but undeniable conclusion is Relational, Process, and Open Theologies.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 13, 2022)

Man is a subject of moral law and moral government and is under moral obligation to obey the moral governor of all free wills according to the prescribed law. He is subject to the penalties for disobedience and rewards for obedience. If he has no free moral choice to render obedience or disobedience and meet his own moral obligation, his own existence is an act of injustice and abortion on the part of the Creator. That man has intellect, reason sensibility, and powers of knowledge and choice cannot be doubted as long as man is sane.

The freedom of the will of man in moral action has been denied IN THEORY by unconditional securityites, but it has never been disproved and never will be. Those very ones who deny free will have admitted it in their arguments in trying to disprove it. The fact that they freely choose to deny such plain fact as free action in man proves they have it and are exercising it. The fact that others who are more logical and do not choose to believe their vain, arguments, but are honest enough to admit plain everyday facts also proves that all men have free wills to do as they please.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> To teach that man has nothing to do in the new birth and that it is entirely up to the choice of God is to make God false according to His own Word. Man must make a choice in his spiritual birth because he is in existence with power to make a free choice, but in the natural birth he was not in existence with power of choice to decide whether he wanted to be born or not. God has told us that anyone who is a respecter of persons is a sinner (Jas. 2:9), and therefore if it is left up to God alone to save some and da-mn some as He sees fit, then He would be a sinner Himself. BUT GOD IS NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS (Rom. 2:6-16). If man cannot exercise will power in the kingdom of God, and if he cannot sin after being saved, then many Scriptures are false.


What's your take on Romans 11?
A Remnant was chosen by grace. If it wasn't grace, then they would have been chosen for their works. Yet that would mean grace isn't grace.
After that the rest were hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.” 
This caused them to stumble but not beyond recovery. This stumble allowed salvation to go out to the world. 
A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 
And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.


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## common man (Oct 13, 2022)

"I don't understand Election" Paul Washer answers - YouTube 

Men really are evil. Men are really going to **** in a handbasket and loving the trip apart from election. That is where you have to start.


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

If everything is predestined or “predetermined” why do we pray for God’s Will to be done when praying in situations? 

We’re told that some things come by prayer and fasting. “Pre” makes prayer, fasting and faith nonessential. And, saying everything is ordained by God makes God the author of confusion and the father of lies. 

Having foreknowledge or allowing things to unfold does not mean to predestine.  

Selected atonement isn’t biblical.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If everything is predestined or “predetermined” why do we pray for God’s Will to be done when praying in situations?
> 
> We’re told that some things come by prayer and fasting. “Pre” makes prayer, fasting and faith nonessential. And, saying everything is ordained by God makes God the author of confusion and the father of lies.
> 
> ...


Then you agree that Jesus is God's Plan B?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If everything is predestined or “predetermined” why do we pray for God’s Will to be done when praying in situations?


The predestined reverence of the believer?


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Then you agree that Jesus is God's Plan B?


Nope. There is no plan B. Even without the fall of man in the Garden it was still destined to draft the Gentiles in. There was no way to do that without Jesus.

My post says if everything is predestined. It was destined for Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for all, but it wasn’t destined for Jesus to be the sacrifice just for Artfuldodger and a hand selected others. He’s no respector of persons.

Outside of the final judgment, is God deciding this one in, this one not?


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> The predestined reverence of the believer?



No, it’s just that some believe everything on this earth is ordained of God - even adultery. 

People forget that there’s a god of this earth that’s allowed to roam. 

Where are boils ordained by God for Job? There was nothing but a limit given - you can’t kill him. 

God can still reign as the ultimate authority without micro-managing your every thought or move. 

You’re in a big ole pasture and allowed to chose which leaf to gnaw on so it’s not like you’re totally free, but you’re not tied to a tree with access to just one leaf.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> No, it’s just that some believe everything on this earth is ordained of God - even adultery.


The LORD hath made all _things_ for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> The LORD hath made all _things_ for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.



Being the “creator” of all things is not the same as the spirit of deception that provokes one to partake in it. There’s a difference in ordaining and allowing. 

Obviously, you are indicating that God and the god of this earth, Satan, are the same.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Being the “creator” of all things is not the same as the spirit of deception that provokes one to partake in it.


The "all things" includes the spirit of deception.


Spotlite said:


> There’s a difference in ordaining and allowing.


God's will determines what is allowed, permitted, caused.

And all the inhabitants of the earth _are_ reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and _among_ the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?


Spotlite said:


> Obviously, you are indicating that God and the god of this earth, Satan, are the same.


Satan is a creature without free will.

That you made that jump says nothing about what I indicate.


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> The "all things" includes the spirit of deception.
> 
> God's will determines what is allowed, permitted, caused.
> 
> ...


Yea I pointed out that He’s the creator, but my point is He’s not the deceiver.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Nope. There is no plan B. Even without the fall of man in the Garden it was still destined to draft the Gentiles in. There was no way to do that without Jesus.
> 
> My post says if everything is predestined. It was destined for Jesus to be the ultimate sacrifice for all, but it wasn’t destined for Jesus to be the sacrifice just for Artfuldodger and a hand selected others. He’s no respector of persons.
> 
> Outside of the final judgment, is God deciding this one in, this one not?


How did God perform that plan to draft in the Gentiles as per Romans 11 without predestination? I would assume what you are saying is God did predestine some things such as Christ's death on the Cross and in relation to that, the hardening of Israel in order for that to happen and the Wall of separation coming down, etc. But he left it up to chance on which individuals took part in all of that.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 13, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> If everything is predestined or “predetermined” why do we pray for God’s Will to be done when praying in situations?
> 
> We’re told that some things come by prayer and fasting. “Pre” makes prayer, fasting and faith nonessential. And, saying everything is ordained by God makes God the author of confusion and the father of lies.
> 
> ...


Do we pray for God's will to be done or for God to intervene for our will to be done?
Most Christians pray for God's will to be done. This is why Election believers pray as well. They aren't really trying to get God to change his plan, destiny, or will.


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Do we pray for God's will to be done or for God to intervene for our will to be done?
> Most Christians pray for God's will to be done. This is why Election believers pray as well. They aren't really trying to get God to change his plan, destiny, or will.




The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Elias was a man subject to like passions as we are, and he prayed earnestly that it might not rain: and it rained not on the earth by the space of three years and six months.

And he prayed again, and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth her fruit.

There are a couple of places in scripture where God did change His plans.


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> How did God perform that plan to draft in the Gentiles as per Romans 11 without predestination? I would assume what you are saying is God did predestine some things such as Christ's death on the Cross and in relation to that, the hardening of Israel in order for that to happen and the Wall of separation coming down, etc. But he left it up to chance on which individuals took part in all of that.


The topic is aimed at individuals being predestined. Half the Bible is useless if God has already decided for YOU. He said there’s a door set before you, life or death, chose life. Either we’re programmed robots or love God with all of our heart - can’t be both.


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## Spotlite (Oct 13, 2022)

Israel said:


> Yes, God commands what to choose.


If you look at the scripture, your comment begs the question - what exactly is there to record against you by being commanded to choose life, and choosing it?


“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, _that I_ have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Yea I pointed out that He’s the creator, but my point is He’s not the deceiver.


I agree with your point. I am not aware of anybody suggesting that God is what He creates. That would be Pantheism.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Either we’re programmed robots or love God with all of our heart - can’t be both.


It is not either.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 14, 2022)

Any choices I make are and opportunity to grow in the grace that God provided in Christ.  That's all, the simplicity and purity of that grace is sustaining; and that not of my/ourselves, it is the gift of God.
Selah


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## hummerpoo (Oct 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Either we’re programmed robots or love God with all of our heart - can’t be both.


Introduction to Logic book by Carl Cohen (thriftbooks.com)


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 14, 2022)

No man can deny the fact of free action in daily life without incurring the charge of insanity, for he knows in his own daily life that he has freedom of action to do right or wrong, or to be saved or lost according to God's law. By the necessity of his own nature, he himself knows that he is a free agent in the moral realm. If he can hide this fact from himself, or argue himself out of this fact, he can likewise deceive himself about his very existence. He may, in speculation and for the sake of argument deny either fact, but the truth remains that he knows both. That HE IS and That HE IS FREE to choose his own destiny and moral actions in every stage of his life until eternity, are facts well known by virtue of his own creation and experience in life.

He not only has the power of choice, but he has a natural created faculty that dictates to him what choice he should make concerning every moral action of free will. To deny the will is to deny the conscience and by so doing he can soon make himself believe he is not responsible for sin and its effects, even though he may sin every day. However, it will take more than false doctrine of unconditional security to make him immune from sin and its effects.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 14, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What's your take on Romans 11?
> A Remnant was chosen by grace. If it wasn't grace, then they would have been chosen for their works. Yet that would mean grace isn't grace.
> After that the rest were hardened. “God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see, and ears that could not hear, to this very day.”
> This caused them to stumble but not beyond recovery. This stumble allowed salvation to go out to the world.
> ...



If I told you the meaning of Romans 11, would you even believe it?


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## Madman (Oct 14, 2022)

Israel said:


> There is no choice at all until, and unless, God gives it. No man can choose what he does not know is _there to be chosen_. And then, if, or when, the choice is revealed; comes of grace, the command of what to choose.



What does that revelation look like and does God not provide it to every man?


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## Spotlite (Oct 14, 2022)

Israel said:


> There is no choice at all until, and unless, God gives it. No man can choose what he does not know is _there to be chosen_. And then, if, or when, the choice is revealed; comes of grace, the command of what to choose.



Cool beans. I am glad you pointed that out. Lets look at this one more again.



> If you look at the scripture, your comment begs the question - what exactly is there to record against you by being commanded to choose life, and choosing it?
> 
> 
> “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, _that I_ have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”




Now.......

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:"

This is the point Banjo was trying to make.........^^^^^^^

In this game of dodge ball every time this subject comes up, we are well beyond the command point, we are at the "what road do I take" situation. Predestination the way it is portrayed here says Bob was hand picked by God without choice for paradise, and Billy Do Bad was handpicked by God to roast marsh mellows.

1. Do these commands apply all men every where?
2. What exactly is recorded AGAINST you if you are commanded to chose life, and you chose it? 

_Might have to look at that one deeper, could be that if you chose death and cursing..............it is recorded against you........................................_


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## Madman (Oct 14, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Cool beans. I am glad you pointed that out. Lets look at this one more again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I see a lot of choices in the Scriptures.

"Now therefore, fear the Lord, serve Him in sincerity and in truth, and put away the gods which your fathers served on the other side of the River and in Egypt. Serve the Lord! *15 *And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that _were_ on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." – Joshua 24:14-15


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## brutally honest (Oct 14, 2022)

FWIW:  I’m reading a book right now that cited a 2007 German study which stated fruit flies had what they called “free will”.

If fruit flies have it, so do we.  Even if they _don’t_ have it, I’m still saying we do.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 14, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> No man can deny the fact of free action in daily life without incurring the charge of insanity, for he knows in his own daily life that he has freedom of action to do right or wrong, or to be saved or lost according to God's law.


But the Believer knows that it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of _his_ good pleasure. Something that you do not know.


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## StriperAddict (Oct 14, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> But the Believer knows that it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of _his_ good pleasure.



No intent to be off topic, but the Phil. 2:13 verse speaks well of relationship here. I've seen that "R" word be anathema to some in the faith, but in my understanding it's like an open door to what and how God does indeed work in and thru us ... relationally. 
Is it not God's good pleasure to grow us into fullness in Christ, via the renewing of our minds? Would not He still remain "the author and perfecter" of our faith, in a very relational way?  
Perhaps for another thread.
Peace.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 14, 2022)

I can find no place in the Bible that says we don't have freedom of choice. I can find many places that say we do and gives examples of choices being made. Finally, this is something I don't concern myself with as I see it as another way the devil seeks to divide Christians. So, believe as you will but don't allow it to separate you from fellowship.


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## brutally honest (Oct 14, 2022)

“And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.”

 — Ezra 3:5

Why are they called “freewill” offerings?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 15, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> “And afterward offered the continual burnt offering, both of the new moons, and of all the set feasts of the LORD that were consecrated, and of every one that willingly offered a freewill offering unto the LORD.”
> 
> — Ezra 3:5
> 
> Why are they called “freewill” offerings?


Because they were not required by the Law(the freedom is relative to the Law). The subject pertains to a legal, not metaphysical perspective.

With "GOD DOES NOT PREDESTINATE ANY PARTICULAR PERSON TO BE SAVED OR LOST", the subject is man's freedom relative to God.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 15, 2022)

The Original Rooster said:


> I can find no place in the Bible that says we don't have freedom of choice. I can find many places that say we do and gives examples of choices being made.


Nobody is denying that choices are made. That is not the issue.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 15, 2022)

bobocat said:


> Only those In Christ are predestined or elected.


Can you do more than assert this? Can you show it?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 15, 2022)

Using Pharoah as an example God said “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Suppose God did look ahead and  raised you up for this very purpose. How does it matter or really change things? You still have to do what God has already seen.
Maybe God has used foreknowledge and has already seen who will accept Him. One still can't do likewise because he is bound by what God has already seen.


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## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2022)

Israel said:


> I am more inclined to it's the way you hear it.



I hear what you’re saying.


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## Spotlite (Oct 15, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Using Pharoah as an example God said “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
> 
> Suppose God did look ahead and  raised you up for this very purpose. How does it matter or really change things? You still have to do what God has already seen.
> Maybe God has used foreknowledge and has already seen who will accept Him. One still can't do likewise because he is bound by what God has already seen.


Now you’re getting very close.


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 15, 2022)




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## gordon 2 (Oct 15, 2022)

In the Parable of the Banquet Jesus points out that people make excuses ( justify) not to come to the banquet they are invited to and don't show up.

If their was no individual choice in the matter of showing up...why bother with the punch line of that parable. Why bother with the parable if individuals are programmed to be devoted to family affairs and business more than to be genuinely devoted to Christ?


"For I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will taste my banquet.’ ” 25Large crowds were now traveling with Jesus, and He turned and said to them, 26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My..."

It seems to me that the parable indicates that individuals have choices in considering what is priority. They have freedom in this  from putting things off to excuses and therefore that their choices of what is priority at any given time is not predetermined.


"I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents"

It seems to me that there would be no cause for rejoicing if repentance was a matter of God's choice exclusively. It would be just another day with another God minted saint.

To love is a choice especially when it is possessed  and you realize it is being withheld by you. To forgive those who trespass is a choice that denies the self. The denial is not always so easy until we chose as priority to ride our mule.


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## brutally honest (Oct 15, 2022)

Calvinist Overwhelmed By Number Of Choices At Sizzler Buffet

https://babylonbee.com/news/calvinist-overwhelmed-by-number-of-choices-at-sizzler-buffet


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 15, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Nobody is denying that choices are made. That is not the issue.


I don't see that there is an issue.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 15, 2022)

Possession of the will and conscience makes man subject to the mora obligation to keep the mora law and obey moral government. Every normal man recognizes these powers in himself and in all other men. This assumption is irresistible and universal and cannot logically be called into question, and would not be unless it is for some selfish purpose to prove a point or to excuse one's self in living in sin, contrary to Scripture. Regardless of why it is called into question man's free will still remains an established fact of man's constitutional make-up. The affirmation by millions of men of sound mind that they are responsible for their acts among men before God, shows beyond contradiction that all men regard themselves, and others, as subjects of mora obligation.

 Moral obligation made possible by the free will and the conscience extends to the ultimate acts of the will concerning mora law. Man is free to choose obedience to the mora law, although he may be overpowered by sin and Satan in some acts because he wills not to serve God and live spiritually alive enough to resist the effects of the fall. Nevertheless, in these matters he is always free to reject Satan and turn to God to be free from the effects and responsibility of these sinful acts, or he is free to continue to submit to such bondage by his own free will. He has a Helper in God and deliverance in salvation if he chooses such, but as long as he chooses to remain in rebellion against God, he has no claim on such help. Man is absolutely free to choose the end in life to which God is consecrated the highest good to all, or he is free to choose the end to which Satan and the rebels are consecrated a life of self-gratification contrary to the highest good of the universe and all societies therein. Man can choose his own end and the means of securing that end. He is free to relinquish, at any moment his choice of an end as well as the means to that end. He is free to refuse known necessary conditions and means to an end or he is free to accept them. He can always choose holiness as an end and also the means of attaining to that end, or he can choose sin and the means to secure that end. He can choose any object or any means to an end or refuse both as he pleases. He has absolute preference and choice in all matters pertaining to mora law and mora obligations, or he reject them. No choice can be made without the mind having a reason for that choice, and in this sense free will extends to the ultimate, intention of the mind.

Such freedom of the will and conscience is recognized in young children who justify themselves in their acts in childhood. Grow people also exercise such freedom and make excuses to justify many acts. In many actions some are honest enough to admit wrong although in some acts they are justified by right and voluntary decisions. Courts of justice have always assumed that man is free to choose, and they judge him on the basis of the ultimate intention of the will. Only lunatics are regarded as not being responsible for their acts, thus proving the universality of belief in free mora agency as the first truth of reason, as of revelation.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 15, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> "For I tell you, not one of those men who were invited will taste my banquet.’ ” 25Large crowds were now traveling with Jesus, and He turned and said to them, 26“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My..."


Gordon, I'm glad you brought this up because this is a perfect example of where many misinterpret what Christ was saying. In English, the word hate is used from the Greek work miseo. Miseo in Greek means hate but it also means to love less and esteem less so what Christ was saying was that one must hold their family and themselves in less esteem than him to follow him. Anyway, I know that's not what you were trying to say but I just found it interesting as we see this all over the Bible where a little research teaches a deeper and more accurate meaning. Carry on with the good message sir!


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 15, 2022)

Jesus is shaking his head right now watching people argue over stupid stuff.


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## brutally honest (Oct 15, 2022)

NCHillbilly said:


> Jesus is shaking his head right now watching people argue over stupid stuff.



I seriously doubt Jesus reads the GON Sports forum.


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## Madman (Oct 15, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I seriously doubt Jesus reads the GON Sports forum.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 15, 2022)

gordon 2 said:


> It seems to me that there would be no cause for rejoicing if repentance was a matter of God's choice exclusively.


Despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 16, 2022)

Romans 11:33-34
Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been His counselor?”


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 16, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> I seriously doubt Jesus reads the GON Sports forum.


I think he mostly sticks to the fly fishing forum, and the Useles Billy threads.


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## Spotlite (Oct 16, 2022)

Israel said:


> some of you like memes:View attachment 1183246


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 16, 2022)

The Bible throughout recognizes the freedom of the will and conscience moral obligation then extends to everything about us over which the will has direct or indirect control. Our muscles, intellect, senses, and appetites are all controlled by the will. If one cannot directly do as he wills concerning moral law, then he can choose the means of grace that will enable him to obey the letter of the law. Hence, he is a free moral agent the highest sense of the term.

The mora action is voluntary action and moral obligation respects the ultimate intention only. In voluntary acts are not moral actions. Choices concerning the well- being of God and the universe constitute moral obligation and this God demands in His moral law. He cannot excuse breaking this law because He has provided all necessary means to obey it, if man wills to use them. This is why man is as responsible for his sins after he is saved as before. God requires both in the law and in the gospel that free moral agents choose the same end of which He is consecrated consequently, all obligation consists of the choice to the same end. Virtue consists of consecration to this end, and vice consists of consecration to the wrong end. self-gratification.

The so-called sovereign grace and the will of God are not the basis of moral obligation and free action. The moral law legislates over voluntary action only. It is our moral obligation to the will the best good of all regardless of the will of God or of grace, for it is the law of our creative make-up. Whether God commanded it or not we would by nature be obligated to will, choose, and secure the highest good for ourselves and others. God's will merely reveals to us the rule for all free wills. This law defines the rule of moral action, and the reason to conform to it is the highest good of the universe. If God should command us to do that which our reason tells us is unwise and not for the good of all, it would be impossible for us to feel obligated to obey Him. Thus, reason does not regard His law as the foundation or moral obligation, but only as proof that what He, commands is wise and best for all and that it is commanded for that reason.

The moral law makes known to free wills what is right and wrong but the whole thing is a farce if man has no choose in whether he should do right or wrong. Any theory concerning moral actions that destroys the free moral agency of man is wholly illogical, impractical, unnatural, factitious, and unscriptural and must be rejected. All this fallacy of self-indulgence with a dream of Heaven and irresponsibility here and hereafter is a religion of Satan to da-mn souls, and it should be treated as such. To teach it means that we make God the one committing the sins in both saints and sinners and the one responsible for some to be lost and others to be saved.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 17, 2022)

The Bible never teaches that God saves and keeps any man contrary to his will. Any action that man is responsible for in exercising his own created will power should he make the wrong choice, does not make God responsible nor lessen God's power, will, purpose, or change God's attitude or plan to help man, should he change to the right choice and accept God's way and help.

God is limited in blessing man, should he rebel against Him. If He were not, then he would be obligated to force all men to be saved alike. If one is lost it only proves failure on the part of man, not God. It is God's will that all men should be saved, but the question of who will be saved depends on the individual, who must meet the conditions of salvation and of keeping saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; Jn. 3:15-20, 36; Rev. 22:17). A saved man no longer belongs to God, if he rebels and lives and dies in sin.

These statements prove both saints and sinners have the power of free choice, and that God holds them responsible for wrong use of this faculty.

"Choose you this day whom ye shall serve" (Josh. 24:15), "did not choose the fear of the Lord" (Prov. 1:19-33), "I have chosen the way of truth" (Ps. 119:30, 173), "They have chosen their own way" (Isa. 66:3), "he will hold to the one and despise the other" (Mt. 6:24), "I will follow thee" (Mt. 8:19), "If any man will come after me" (Mt. 16:24, 25), Whosoever will do the will of God" (Mk. 3:35; 16:16), "Ye shall not come to me, that ye might have life (Jn 5:40), "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine" (Jn. 7:17; 9:31), "If any man serve me, him will my Father honour" ( Jn. 12:26), "hath power over HIS OWN WILL" (1 Cor. 7:37), "If I do this thing willingly" (1 Cor. 9:17), "not by constraint but willingly" (1 Pet. 5:2), "whosoever will" (Rev. 22:17). These and literally hundreds of like passages in the Bible prove free moral agency. The word "choice" will," are used over 4,000 times in Scripture. Other words expressing power of choice in all phases of life are used thousands of times, so to deny free moral agency of all men, saved or unsaved, is the rankest ignorance of all and wilful blindness to plain facts.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 17, 2022)

*CALLING AND ELECTION (Rom. 8:33)*

The doctrine of _calling _and _election_ has been surrounded with many traditional theories and mysteries down through the centuries, but there is no excuse for this as the term simply means_ chosen._ Any person or group of persons selected or chosen of God for any particular purpose is the elect of God. Christ is called God's elect (Isa. 42:1; 1 Pet. 2:6). A particular woman in a local church is called and "elect lady" (2 Jn. 1, 13). Israel as a nation is spoken of as the elect of God (Isa. 45:4; 65:9, 22; Mt. 24:22-31; Mk. 13:20-27; 1 Pet. 1:2; Rom. 11:7, 28). The church, made up of both Jews and Gentiles, is called the elect of God (Rom. 8:33; Col. 3:12; 1 Thess. 1:4; Titus 1:1). Angels are also called the elect of God (1 Thess. 5:21). Anyone called to be saved and chosen for any particular mission is elected of God for that work (Acts 15:7; Jn. 6:70; 13:18; 15:16; Acts 1:2; 9:15). Every person saved is the elect or chosen of God to salvation (Jn. 15:19; 2 Thess. 2:13; Jas. 2:5; Rev. 17:14).

*FINAL ELECTION TO SALVATION MAN'S RESPONSIBILITY*

One can see with all assurance that any calling and election of God is based upon the free moral agency of those called and chosen. God offers the same mercies and blessings to all alike but all do not accept these benefits alike. therefore, there naturally are different consequences.

The Bible is very clear that man looks on the outward appearances and God looks on the heart. (1 Sam. 16:7; Isa. 55:8, 9). It says that God's ways are always righteous (Ps. 145:17). He is no respecter of persons (Rom. 2:11; Jas. 2:9). His will is for all to be saved (1Tim. 2:4, 5; 2 Pet. 3:9). God's will and ways are made plain in His word and all who conform to them are loved on an equal basis according to his ways (Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 18:30; 33:20; Hosea 12:2; Prov. 24:12; Mt. 16:27; 2 Tim. 4:4; 2 Cor. 10:9, 10; 1 Cor. 3:11-15; Rev. 20:11-15). God repeatedly declares that He demands wholehearted service from every man (Deut. 11:13; Josh. 22:5; 1 Sam. 12:20, 24; Mt. 22:37). God constantly searches the hearts of men and deals with them in order to bring them to righteousness (Ps. 139:23; Jer. 11:20; 17:9, 10; 20:12; Heb. 4:12; Job 33:14-30). Therefore, God does not choose some to be saved and others to be lost and He is not responsible for those who will be lost.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 17, 2022)

> Any theory concerning moral actions that destroys the free moral agency of man is wholly illogical, impractical, unnatural, factitious, and unscriptural and must be rejected.


Christ said, "Without me, ye can do nothing".


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2022)

John 6:37-38
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 17, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Christ said, "Without me, ye can do nothing".


What are some verses about the Fruit of the Spirit in relation to that?
Christians of either persuasion do give most of the credit for their fruits to God.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 17, 2022)

*THERE ARE NO DIRECT STATEMENTS OF GOD CHOOSING TO SAVE CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN WILL, AS SOME TEACH FROM THE FOLLOWING.*

*"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). The ones who rejected the gospel in this occasion were the Jews God's own elect who were first offered the gospel, thus proving that after men are chosen to be saved, they can reject truth and be lost (Acts 13:45-49). That the Jews were the elect of God and were first chosen to carry the gospel is one of the most clearly stated facts in Scripture (Rom. 1:16; 3:6; 9:4, 5; Mt. 10:5; 15:21-28; 21:33-46; Jn. 1:11). Israel rejected the gospel and even killed their own Messiah. They murder the saints and hardened themselves against God until it was no wonder Paul waxed bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46). Paul continued by say that God had called him to bring the light of the gospel to the Gentiles and unto the ends of the Earth, showing that it is God's purpose to save all that believe in all nations (Acts 10:34, 35). When the Gentiles heard this, many of them were glad and believed the gospel and glorified the word of the Lord. This is why they were ordained to eternal life.*


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *THERE ARE NO DIRECT STATEMENTS OF GOD CHOOSING TO SAVE CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN WILL, AS SOME TEACH FROM THE FOLLOWING.*
> 
> *"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). The ones who rejected the gospel in this occasion were the Jews God's own elect who were first offered the gospel, thus proving that after men are chosen to be saved, they can reject truth and be lost (Acts 13:45-49). That the Jews were the elect of God and were first chosen to carry the gospel is one of the most clearly stated facts in Scripture (Rom. 1:16; 3:6; 9:4, 5; Mt. 10:5; 15:21-28; 21:33-46; Jn. 1:11). Israel rejected the gospel and even killed their own Messiah. They murder the saints and hardened themselves against God until it was no wonder Paul waxed bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everl16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. asting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46). Paul continued by say that God had called him to bring the light of the gospel to the Gentiles and unto the ends of the Earth, showing that it is God's purpose to save all that believe in all nations (Acts 10:34, 35). When the Gentiles heard this, many of them were glad and believed the gospel and glorified the word of the Lord. This is why they were ordained to eternal life.*


Romans 9:16-21
16 So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”
18 Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden. 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”
20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?”
21 Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

Now some folks say God used his foreknowledge and saw that Pharoah nor Israel would never choose Him and thus why He hardened Pharoah and the rest of Israel, after choosing a Remnant based on grace.

If that is true Paul isn't explaining it that way in Romans. In fact Paul goes on to use the Potter as an example. Paul knew that we would be asking as in Romans 9:20. It would have been the perfect time for Paul to say "God used his foreknowledge and knew Pharoah and whom in Israel would never accept His call."

Instead Paul says that God hardened them for His purpose. Now if this is true, did Pharoah ever have the free will to turn to Jesus after Pharoah was hardened?
After a Remnant was chosen by grave and not works, did the rest who were hardened have a chance to turn to Jesus until their eyes would be opened again by God?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *THERE ARE NO DIRECT STATEMENTS OF GOD CHOOSING TO SAVE CERTAIN INDIVIDUALS CONTRARY TO THEIR OWN WILL, AS SOME TEACH FROM THE FOLLOWING.*
> 
> *"As many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13:48). The ones who rejected the gospel in this occasion were the Jews God's own elect who were first offered the gospel, thus proving that after men are chosen to be saved, they can reject truth and be lost (Acts 13:45-49). That the Jews were the elect of God and were first chosen to carry the gospel is one of the most clearly stated facts in Scripture (Rom. 1:16; 3:6; 9:4, 5; Mt. 10:5; 15:21-28; 21:33-46; Jn. 1:11). Israel rejected the gospel and even killed their own Messiah. They murder the saints and hardened themselves against God until it was no wonder Paul waxed bold and said, It was necessary that the word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles" (Acts 13:46). Paul continued by say that God had called him to bring the light of the gospel to the Gentiles and unto the ends of the Earth, showing that it is God's purpose to save all that believe in all nations (Acts 10:34, 35). When the Gentiles heard this, many of them were glad and believed the gospel and glorified the word of the Lord. This is why they were ordained to eternal life.*


What about Paul on the road to Damascus? Was it Paul's will to seek God? Was Paul looking for Jesus on that road or was Jesus seeking Paul for a very specific purpose just as God had done with Pharoah?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 18, 2022)

> God does not choose some to be saved and others to be lost


Blessed _is the man whom_ thou choosest, and causest to approach _unto thee, that_ he may dwell in thy courts:


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## Madman (Oct 18, 2022)

I have a few thoughts, 

1) God would predestine some to the beatific vision and others to eternal fire.

2) We would be commanded to "do good works" for which we are created.    

3) So many writings in Holy Scripture concerning "run the race to the end"  Finish the      race, being careful to guard your heart, etc. 

4) "Choose" this day whom you shall follow.

There just seems to be a lot of choices we are to make, a life we are to live, a Lord we are to follow and emulate, that involves our free will.  If I can choose and yet it makes no difference then why bother?  

This would be a strange god some follow.

In the theology of predestination, all of this has been done and one has any choice, God chooses this one for up and the other for down.  
It is odd to me that this was never considered until the reformation, for nearly 1600 years the doctrine of predestination and the elect was set, then along comes the reformation and freed every man to follow his own path, except those who understand the purpose for which Christ "built his Church".


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Madman said:


> I have a few thoughts,
> 
> 1) God would predestine some to the beatific vision and others to eternal fire.
> 
> ...


Yet Romans 9 tells us God is this "strange god" if you want to look at Him that way. God has mercy on whom He will have mercy.  Who am I questioning the Potter who made me this way? It's almost like some individuals questioning why God would let me be born a sinner. Regardless of whom in our past history made us born sinners, God still let's us be born for His glory not ours. Nothing in this life is for us, it's all for God. Thus why the mystery Paul mentions in Romans and again in Romans 11.
We can't ask the Potter why he made us one way or the other. We can't ask God why some folks dead in the ground never got called.


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## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2022)

Madman said:


> I have a few thoughts,
> 
> 1) God would predestine some to the beatific vision and others to eternal fire.
> 
> ...


Because some can’t comprehend the difference in foreknowledge of knowing what a man will do, and predestination, they think it’s the same.

Scripture is clear, a man is blind due to his unbelief, he was not chosen to be blind. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did. There’s no need in keeping on drawing Pharaoh.

People are quick to point out that “Paul had no choice”. Actually, none of us have a choice when God decides to call us, but He allows to chose life or death when He does call us. I’ve asked them the question before only to continue getting a no response - what’s there to record against a man for choosing life?


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 18, 2022)

The Greek word for _ordained_ is _tasso,_ meaning to appoint to arrange to assign a place. It is translated _ordain_ (Acts 13:48; Rom. 13:1), _set_ (Lk. 7:8), _appoint_ (Acts 22:10; 28:23; Mt. 28:16),_ determine_ (Acts 15:2), and _addict_ (1 Cor. 16:15). Not one statement in all these passages teaches that God or man's will is arbitrary in any plan for others who were appointed. God has ordained that all who believe will receive eternal life. He has ordained that there be human governments, but He does not force men to have them, or He does not directly impose His will in every detail of human governments (Rom. 13:1-8). The Centurian who was _set_ over 100 men did not have to accept the position (Lk. 7:8). When Jesus appointed or ordained a place where He would meet the disciples, He did not force one of them to meet the appointment (Mt. 28:16). When God told Paul of certain things that were appointed for him to do in Damascus there was no force used to make Paul do as God desired (Acts 22:10). In Acts 9:6 it is clear that Paul asked God what to do and the Lord told him that he would be told what to do when he got to Damascus. When the Jews appointed a day to hear Paul in Acts 28:23 there was no power to force either of the parties to keep the appointment. Thus, in no Scripture where _tasso_  is used are we led to believe that any person referred to was forced to do anything contrary to his will.

To teach according to Acts 13:48 that God ordained some to be saved and some to be lost, disregarding all other Scriptures to the contrary, does not show honesty with truth. This verse really means as in other translations, "as many as were set for eternal life believed;" that is, those that set themselves to believe the gospel to get eternal life believed and glorified the word of the Lord.

Another passage in the Bible used to prove that God elects some to be saved on the basis of His own choice alone regardless of the wills of the free mora agents is Rom. 9:1-24, but this Scripture does not confirm such theory. Any Bible statement must be understood in connection with the subject of the passage. In this Paul is showing how the Jews who were chosen of God to evangelize the world and to whom God gave the promises, that they were failing God in spite of their election, and that they would be cut off because of their rebellion (Rom.11). God gives an example of Jacob's being chosen in preference to Esau, But a study of the history of these boys shows why God made the choice. It was not simply because of His will only, or because He was a respecter of persons, but it was because of the nature, traits, and disposition of the boys. Esau was devoid of spiritual things, and he freely chose to be this way (Heb. 12:16). Jacob was a man who loved God and had a disposition to choose spiritual things. God saw the difference in the make-up of the two boys before they were born and made His choice on these grounds. God can see and know the types of people from the very beginning. Before Ishmael was born God predicted that he would be a wild man and that his hand would be against all other men (Gen. 16:11, 12).


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Because some can’t comprehend the difference in foreknowledge of knowing what a man will do, and predestination, they think it’s the same.
> 
> Scripture is clear, a man is blind due to his unbelief, he was not chosen to be blind. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did. There’s no need in keeping on drawing Pharaoh.
> 
> People are quick to point out that “Paul had no choice”. Actually, none of us have a choice when God decides to call us, but He allows to chose life or death when He does call us. I’ve asked them the question before only to continue getting a no response - what’s there to record against a man for choosing life?


Where does Paul say the Potter used foreknowledge? Can't a Potter make some vessels for His own glory and others for vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Supposin, Pharoah did harden his own heart, didn't God also harden it even more? If God did this, how would Pharoah ever be able to unblind himself unless God opened his eyes in the future?
It's the same way with Israel, a remnant was chosen by grace, not foreknowledge.  The rest were hardened. How can they ever see until God re-opens their eyes?


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 18, 2022)

If God could see the different kind of persons that both Jacob and Esau were going to be, then He had plenty of grounds for His choice of Jacob over Esau. When God said He loved Jacob and hated Esau He simply meant that he preferred Jacob to Esau. To _Hate_ is a Hebrew and Greek idiom meaning preference. This is what Jesus meant in Lk. 14:26 when He said that unless a man "hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciples." This simply means that one must prefer Christ to his relatives and his own life and put God first. So, it was in in the case of Jacob and Esau (Mal. 1:2, 3; Rom. 9:10-13). God preferred Jacob to Esau and this preference was naturally based upon what God could see in them. With God, He can see the innermost traits of each person and He also naturally prefers the ones who desire spiritual things and who choose to do His will. Whether they do His will or not, that is another question. All can do His will if they choose to do so because the means of grace are for all alike (Jn. 3:16-20; Rev. 22:17).


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

God's original plan was to bring salvation to the world through Israel. The only way to assure this plan would work was for God to choose a Remnant, based on grace, and harden the rest so that the full number of Gentiles could come in.
This plan would take a lot more than just God using foreknowledge.

Regardless of God using His almighty power or foreknowledge, His plan still happened and is happening just as he wants it to or how he foresaw it happening.


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## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Where does Paul say the Potter used foreknowledge? Can't a Potter make some vessels for His own glory and others for vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
> 
> Supposin, Pharoah did harden his own heart, didn't God also harden it even more? If God did this, how would Pharoah ever be able to unblind himself unless God opened his eyes in the future?
> It's the same way with Israel, a remnant was chosen by grace, not foreknowledge.  The rest were hardened. How can they ever see until God re-opens their eyes?


1. He makes everything, even those that will reject Him. The questions is did He make the unbeliever to be an unbeliever of did He just know which direction they would take?

2. There is no scriptural teaching to support selective atonement. 

3. There are numerous warnings about God has called, you refused........that is how you become reprobate. 

4. I agree, only God can open anyone`s eyes. But every man has a set before him life or death to chose. I ask you again what is there to record AGAINST you this day if you chose life?


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## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> God's original plan was to bring salvation to the world through Israel. The only way to assure this plan would work was for God to choose a Remnant based on grace and harden the rest so that the full number of Gentiles could come in.
> This plan would take a lot more than just foreknowledge.





> The only way to assure this plan would work was for God to choose a Remnant based on grace and harden the rest so that the full number of Gentiles could come in.



That is an assumption.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> That is an assumption.


What that an all powerful God didn't use foreknowledge to make His plan of Redemption for the world come about?
Either way though it still happpened. Either way would actually be an assumption because Romans 11 tells us so. We don't know the mind of God, especially as a Potter. Paul just told us how Potters decide. It's quite possible a Potter with foreknowledge would know beforehand which vessels would become hardened on their own.
My point though is in the grand plan of God, it really doesn't matter if God uses Power or foreknowledge. It doesn't make Him less or more if He calls those he knows will answer yes or if he already knows and calls and elects just those.
Now my question is which way is Paul telling us the Potter uses to elect? Who is making the assumption using what Paul is telling us in Romans 9?


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## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What that an all powerful God didn't use foreknowledge to make His plan of Redemption for the world come about?
> Either way though it still happpened. Either way would actually be an assumption because Romans 11 tells us so. We don't know the mind of God, especially as a Potter. Paul just told us how Potters decide. It's quite possible a Potter with foreknowledge would know beforehand which vessels would become hardened on their own.
> My point though is in the grand plan of God, it really doesn't matter if God uses Power or foreknowledge. It doesn't make Him less or more if He calls those he knows will answer yes or if he already knows and calls and elects just those.
> Now my question is which way is Paul telling us the Potter uses to elect? Who is making the assumption using what Paul is telling us in Romans 9?


No. This is an assumption - “The only way to assure this plan would work was for God to choose a Remnant based on grace and harden the rest so that the full number of Gentiles could come in.”


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## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> What that an all powerful God didn't use foreknowledge to make His plan of Redemption for the world come about?
> Either way though it still happpened. Either way would actually be an assumption because Romans 11 tells us so. We don't know the mind of God, especially as a Potter. Paul just told us how Potters decide. It's quite possible a Potter with foreknowledge would know beforehand which vessels would become hardened on their own.
> My point though is in the grand plan of God, it really doesn't matter if God uses Power or foreknowledge. It doesn't make Him less or more if He calls those he knows will answer yes or if he already knows and calls and elects just those.
> Now my question is which way is Paul telling us the Potter uses to elect? Who is making the assumption using what Paul is telling us in Romans 9?



I am not saying that the Jews fall did not allow Gentiles a way to salvation, I am saying that is NOT the only way it could have happened.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I am not saying that the Jews fall did not allow Gentiles a way to salvation, I am saying that is NOT the only way it could have happened.


Oh, me neither, it's just the only way it could happen according to God's plan. That for a Redeemer to come from Israel and die on a Cross, their hearts had to be hardened to make it come to pass.
God could have had Christ born in Africa or Greece just as easily or the nation of his earthly origin not of an importance, etc. etc. if God had wanted to. His Redeemer could have been a daughter or an adopted son. His redeemer could have shed blood in some other way, etc.
God could have incarnate Himself as the Father and not send His son as well but that was not His plan.

But for God's plan to happen the way it did, according to Paul in Romans 11, a Remnant was chosen by grace and the rest hardened until the full number of Gentiles come in.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 18, 2022)

God chose Pharaoh and caused him to become the king of Egypt at the time that He need someone to resist His will so that He could make His power known, God could not have used a man to resist Him if he had been the type who would submit to His will. In this and all other cases where God has used men to bless others, or made them objects of His wrath, His choice has been made in each case upon the basis of the submission or rebellion of the persons involved. No man is forced to resist the will of God, but those who do resist receive ****ation and this is what Paul teaches in ROMAN 9. This is why there is no unrighteousness with God. He gives all men the free choice of their actions to submit to His will or rebel against it, and final responsibility is upon them, not upon God. God will have mercy on whom submit to Him. Mercy and compassion are not shown because of men's works, but they come through grace, when men choose and submit to the will of God.

Paul showed Israel that she was resisting God's will like Esau and Pharaoh and she was to be cut off like others who had resisted God's will (ROMANS 9:1-11:29). They were God's elect but if they chose to resist God and refused to do His will, God's program had to go forward even if God had to turn the Jewish calling over to the Gentiles.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 18, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Oh, me neither, it's just the only way it could happen according to God's plan. That for a Redeemer to come from Israel and die on a Cross, their hearts had to be hardened to make it come to pass.
> God could have had Christ born in Africa or Greece just as easily or the nation of his earthly origin not of an importance, etc. etc. if God had wanted to. His Redeemer could have been a daughter or an adopted son. His redeemer could have shed blood in some other way, etc.
> God could have incarnate Himself as the Father and not send His son as well but that was not His plan.
> 
> But for God's plan to happen the way it did, according to Paul in Romans 11, a Remnant was chosen by grace and the rest hardened until the full number of Gentiles come in.



Rom. 11:1-5

Rom. 11:1, 2, meaning What shall we conclude? Has God cast off Israel completely and permanently? God forbid. I am an Israelite myself and proof that God is not through with Jews, but willing to save all that will believe.

Rom. 11:3 meaning Outed from 1 Ki. 19:10-18. This proves the doctrine of the remnant, according to the election of grace (v 5-6; Isa. 1:9; refs).

Rom. 11:4 meaning This illustrates how God can reserve 144,000 Jews to Himself after the rapture and during the first 3 and one-half years of Daniel's 70th week (Dan. 9:27; Rev. 7:1-8; 14:1-5)

Baal-worship was the state religion of Israel under Ahab and Jezebel. It was with this god that Elijah had his great contest (1 Ki. 18).

Rom. 11:5 meaning on remnant see Isa. 1:9, to back this up and for election of grace in this passage, meaning Grace elects to save all that will believe.

This is the very reason so many people don't understand the Bible they don't look up ever thing on a subject and study it for the truth, they only use part of it and think their right.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> God chose Pharaoh and caused him to become the king of Egypt at the time that He need someone to resist His will so that He could make His power known, God could not have used a man to resist Him if he had been the type who would submit to His will. In this and all other cases where God has used men to bless others, or made them objects of His wrath, His choice has been made in each case upon the basis of the submission or rebellion of the persons involved. No man is forced to resist the will of God, but those who do resist receive ****ation and this is what Paul teaches in ROMAN 9. This is why there is no unrighteousness with God. He gives all men the free choice of their actions to submit to His will or rebel against it, and final responsibility is upon them, not upon God. God will have mercy on whom submit to Him. Mercy and compassion are not shown because of men's works, but they come through grace, when men choose and submit to the will of God.
> 
> Paul showed Israel that she was resisting God's will like Esau and Pharaoh and she was to be cut off like others who had resisted God's will (ROMANS 9:1-11:29). They were God's elect but if they chose to resist God and refused to do His will, God's program had to go forward even if God had to turn the Jewish calling over to the Gentiles.


I could see it happening that way if Paul had not said in Romans 9:20;
But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why did You make me like this?” 

I could also seeing happen that way if Paul had not said in Romans 11:33;
O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways!

If it is as you say, why did Paul need to show us what he did in the above two verses?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 18, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> Rom. 11:1-5
> 
> Rom. 11:1, 2, meaning What shall we conclude? Has God cast off Israel completely and permanently? God forbid. I am an Israelite myself and proof that God is not through with Jews, but willing to save all that will believe.
> 
> ...


If it is as you say, why then was it a mystery? Paul said in Romans 11:25
I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you will not be conceited: A hardening in part has come to Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.


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## Madman (Oct 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Because some can’t comprehend the difference in foreknowledge of knowing what a man will do, and predestination, they think it’s the same.
> 
> Scripture is clear, a man is blind due to his unbelief, he was not chosen to be blind. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God did. There’s no need in keeping on drawing Pharaoh.
> 
> People are quick to point out that “Paul had no choice”. Actually, none of us have a choice when God decides to call us, but He allows to chose life or death when He does call us. I’ve asked them the question before only to continue getting a no response - what’s there to record against a man for choosing life?


God calls everyone.  No one has excuse.


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## Spotlite (Oct 18, 2022)

Madman said:


> God calls everyone.  No one has excuse.


You’re exactly right.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 18, 2022)

Ephesians 1:4-11 is used to prove that God choose from eternity past certain people to be saved, but this passage only reveals that God's plan is that all who are to be saved were chosen to be holy and that this purpose of God was made before the disruption of the world. God predestinated that the saved should be holy before God forever. But _who_ and _which ones_ will be saved and be holy is left entirely up to the choice of each individual to conform to the plan of God and enjoy the predestinated blessing of God. The lost were likewise predestinated to be lost but _who_ and_ which persons_ will be lost is left entirely up to the choice of the individual who can refuse to the end of life to conform to the plan of God. The plan itself is the thing that is predestined, not the individual conformity of one single persons to that plan.

Romans 8:27-30 is also used to prove God's choice is the sole reason some are saved, and others are lost, but this passage does not say_ who_ or_ which persons_ will be saved or lost. It simply states that God knew that some would be saved, and some would be lost. What is the reason some are saved, and others are lost? It is solely because of God's choice? No! It is solely because He cannot save all because all will not believe and conform to the gospel. Those who do believe will partake of the predestined blessings and those who do not will partake of the predestined curses of the plan. God foreknew that some would be saved, and some would be lost, but _who_ and_ which ones_ would believe are not personally included in this foreknowledge. That is left up to the individual. God foreknew and predestined _some_ to be saved and the rest to be lost, but He designated no particular individuals, and this is all the Bible does teach on this question. Thousands of statements in the Bible expressing will power are used to prove that all may conform if they choose, but since all men are free agents and since all do not choose the same thing in life, as is well known, not only to God but also to man, some will choose to be saved and others will choose to be lost.

There are no direct statements of God choosing to save certain individuals contrary their own will as some teach from the all the post 94 above and down to here.


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## Madman (Oct 18, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You’re exactly right.


1 Timothy 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 19, 2022)

“Jesus died for men of every kind, not all men. “As Jacob served Laban for the cattle that were spotted, and of various forms, so Christ served even to the cross, for men of every kind, of many and various shapes, procuring them by his blood, and the mystery of the cross,” ~ Justin Martyr


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## gemcgrew (Oct 19, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> There are no direct statements of God choosing to save certain individuals contrary their own will as some teach from the all the post 94 above and down to here.


Contrary their own will?

"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power"

God is all power. That means you don't have any of your own.


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## Madman (Oct 19, 2022)

“If, then, the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Him the curses of all, knowing that, after He had been crucified and was dead, He would raise Him up, why do you argue about Him, who submitted to suffer these things according to the Father's will, as if He were accursed, and do not rather bewail yourselves? For although His Father caused Him to suffer these things in behalf of the human family, yet you did not commit the deed as in obedience to the will of God. For you did not practise piety when you slew the prophets. And let none of you say: If His Father wished Him to suffer this, in order that by His stripes the human race might be healed, we have done no wrong. If, indeed, you repent of your sins, and recognise Him to be Christ, and observe His commandments, then you may assert this; for, as I have said before, remission of sins shall be yours.”  Justin Martyr


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## gemcgrew (Oct 19, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I’ve asked them the question before only to continue getting a no response - what’s there to record against a man for choosing life?


Heaven and earth.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 19, 2022)

This thread is, for the most part, an expression af tribalism.  There is no place for tribalism among God's People (Rm. 2:11)..


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## Madman (Oct 19, 2022)

Romans 2:11. Great vs. for this thread.  Thanks


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## Madman (Oct 19, 2022)

The Church settled this in about 529 at the Second Council of Orange.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 19, 2022)

If God died for every individual, what about all the individuals dead in the ground than never heard His Gospel message? What about all the individuals dead in the ground blinded by their own belief in their god such as the Hindu? They aren't gonna change based on what I say no more than I'm gonna change based on what they say.
It would take an all powerful God to open their eyes as well as mine.

That's a lot of individuals if God died for "all."


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 19, 2022)

Focus on living the life that is outlined in the scripture, accept Christ as your savior, look to the Church for support and understanding, it’s that simple. 

This is all just…….


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## Madman (Oct 19, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> Focus on living the life that is outlined in the scripture, accept Christ as your savior, look to the Church for support and understanding, it’s that simple.
> 
> This is all just…….



I enjoy the doctrinal gymnastics and intentional misuse of Holy Scripture, to insure that what they read into the Scriptures is what they get out.


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## Spotlite (Oct 19, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> If God died for every individual, what about all the individuals dead in the ground than never heard His Gospel message? What about all the individuals dead in the ground blinded by their own belief in their god such as the Hindu? They aren't gonna change based on what I say no more than I'm gonna change based on what they say.
> It would take an all powerful God to open their eyes as well as mine.
> 
> That's a lot of individuals if God died for "all."



Who said they never heard? What scripture says He died just for “the elect”? Again, there’s confusion between “all knowing” and predestined. They’re not the same.

You gotta remember according to scripture they’re unbelief led to their blinding.

“denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction”……..

“because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

Where in just those two scriptures can you find “selective atonement” just for believers? And, yes, God is that powerful to open and close blinded eyes, and He’s that unlimited - to die for “a lot of individuals”.


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 19, 2022)

Madman said:


> I enjoy the doctrinal gymnastics and intentional misuse of Holy Scripture, to insure that what they read into the Scriptures is what they get out.



I get it though not my cup of tea. I’m more of a good news guy than focusing on why folks aren’t going to get there. I ‘ve caught very little when the bait was dead.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 19, 2022)

Madman said:


> I enjoy the doctrinal gymnastics and intentional misuse of Holy Scripture, to insure that what they read into the Scriptures is what they get out.


My personal favorite (non-favorite) is taking one verse from scripture and using it out of context with the rest of the chapter it was taken from to defend their point of view.



Ruger#3 said:


> I get it though not my cup of tea. I’m more of a good news guy than focusing on why folks aren’t going to get there. I ‘ve caught very little when the bait was dead.


Amen, focus on the way we were shown to live and don't divide ourselves by focusing on the rest that has nothing to do with salvation.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 19, 2022)

*THERE ARE NO CONCRETE EXAMPLES OF GOD SAVING SOME MEN AND DAM-ING OTHERS SOLELY BECAUSE OF HIS OWN CHOICE.*

It is true that no man can be saved except God deals with him (Jn. 6:37, 44) and that God's people are called His only possession (Eph. 1:14), but this does not mean that God does not deal with all men, or that all men who desire cannot become the people of God. The Holy Spirit is faithful to deal with all men as they, here the gospel (Rom. 10:9-17; Jn. 16:7-15). The Bible speaks of Christ being the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world (Jn 1:9). No man has been saved or has been forced to stay saved against his will. Because men are born of God's will and not their own (Jn. 1:13) is no proof that they are saved only because of God's will. It simply means that salvation has not been provided by the will of man, but it is also true that God cannot and will not save one man if he himself does not will it (Jn. 3:16-20; 22:17; 1 Tim. 4:10; Mk. 16:15, 16). It is God's will to save all, but all are not saved, so it must also take the will of man in accepting the gospel for him to be saved.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 19, 2022)

*ALL OF DOD'S BLESSINGS ARE CONDITIONAL AND THE VERY NATURE OF THE CASE PROVES THAT GOD DOES NOT DETERMINE BEFOREHAND THE ACTS OF FREE MORAL AGENTS.*

The blessing of God upon every person is conditioned upon personal faith and conformity to the gospel, not upon predetermined choices of God. Metting gospel conditions such as repentance and faith are not works that purchase salvation but are necessary requirements to be saved, if one wants the salvation purchased by the blood of Christ. Choosing to eat a meal prepared by someone does not earn the meal, but it is necessary to eat if one wants the benefits of the food provided for him.

If God should seek to save and keep rebels contrary to their wills, He would break His own laws and fail to carry out His own plan. God could not be guilty of such unlawful dealings, so if men are finally lost it is not because God has failed, His plan has failed, the sacrifice of Christ has failed, or that God did not have power to keep them contrary to His plan. If God's promises and covenants were made on the condition that man must fulfill righteousness, then God cannot do otherwise than to cut off who refuse to conform to His demands. If God failed to hold men to the terms of the contracts, He has made with them, He would be a lair and all men with free wills would lose respect for Him. The follow Scriptures are a few of the many passages that plainly teach that God's dealings have always been on the condition of obedience (Ex. 15:26; 19:5, 6; 22:23, 24; 23:30-33; 32:33; Lev. 26:3-46; Deut. 7:12-24; 8:10-20; 11:13-31; 28:1-68; 29:9-28; 30:1-20; Josh. 23:16; 24:20; 1 Sam. 12:14, 15, 24; 1 Ki. 3:12; 9:3-9; 11:38, 39; 2 Ki. 17:7-23; 21:7, 8; Isa. 1:19, 20; Col. 1:23; 1 Cor. 15:1-5; Heb. 3:6, 12-14; 4:11; 6:4-12; 10:26-39; 2 Pet. 2:20-22; Jn. 15:1-6).


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 19, 2022)

_*THERE ARE NO REASONABLE OR SCRIPTURAL ARGUMENTS THAT CAN PRESENT TO PROVE THAT GOD SAVES OR KEEPS MEN CONTRARY TO THEIR FREE CHOICE.*_

Nothing is hard to understand about election, foreknowledge, or predestination when one realizes that it is God's plan itself, and not personal conformity to that plan that has been foreknown and predestinated. God decrees that all who do conform will be saved and all who do not will be lost and this is the sum and substance of these doctrines. God's decrees were never made to determine the choices of free moral agents as to whether some will be saved, or others will be lost. The decrees of God are those parts of His plan to which all must conform in order to be saved and those who refuse will be lost. Men have made the great mistake of making the doctrine of decrees, to which all must conform to be saved, the same as the free acts of men in conforming to those laws. God does not determine our willing and doing but He does decree the basis of the action for free moral agents that will save or da-mn them accordingly. This does not mean that the initiative of man's salvation is with man. It is with God who chose to make a way of salvation for all men, especially of them that believe and that conform to this plan of their own free choice.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 19, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> It is true that no man can be saved except God deals with him


Yes


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## Spotlite (Oct 20, 2022)

Israel said:


> that He is somehow subject in salvation to the will and whim of man's "ability" to recognize the truth.



WHO believes this made made term  - free will...............means that^^^^


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## gma1320 (Oct 20, 2022)

We are all predestined to be children of God. The Word of God tells us that He knew us before we were created in the womb. But God is a gentleman and He gives us the free will to choose whether or not we want to be one of His children.


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## M80 (Oct 20, 2022)

And round and round and round and round. It will never end.


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## M80 (Oct 20, 2022)




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## Banjo Picker (Oct 20, 2022)

There are no reasonable or scripture that can be present to prove that God saves or keeps men contrary to their free choice.

Election deals with all creatures as sinners and therefore must deal with them on the same basis or the plan is faulty, and the planner is a respecter of persons and unjust in His dealings. The reason God saves only a few is because only a few choose the way of God, and therefore God is free from the final responsibility of the salvation or ****ation of anyone. God cannot say to some that He did them no wrong if He does not deal with them in justice and righteousness on the same basis as others and make them personally responsible as to their destiny. If God offers pardon to all, then all can accept it alike or the offer of pardon is a fraud. If all can accept it, then He is fair to all and the salvation and ****ation rests with the individual and not with God. To argue that God offers a pardon to all alkie and then to contradict this by saying that He offers it to only a few special ones whom He has chosen to save, does not make logic and it is not scriptural. God does not force one to become willing and other to become unwilling to be saved. He deals with all men, seeking to persuade them to be saved and because some become willing, and others do not is no sign that God is responsible for their choice made.

It is a matter of record that there were qualities of character in Abraham, David, and others that caused God to choose them. It was because they became willing to obey God. God tested them to the end of knowing whether they would obey or not. This is very clear from these passages (Gen. 18:17-19; 22:1, 12; Ex.4:8, 9; Josh. 1:7; 1 Sam. 2:26; 13:13, 14; 15:11, 22, 23-28; 16:1-14; 2 Sam. 12:24; 1 Ki. 3:10-14; Lk. 2:52; 4:1-13; Heb. 5:8, 9). Common sense alone teaches us that God could not choose certain people for certain works because they are not of the type that could be used. Even men have this much intelligence. God's continued use of men has always been on the basis of their obedience. Many whom He has used when they were humble became cut off because they became exalted and sinned.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 20, 2022)

*One has all the reason in the world to believe that God treats all moral beings alike according to like  standards of light that they have received.*

All inequality in moral agents has come through the fall and rebellion. On several occasions God placed the race on and equal footing concerning His plan. This was true of Adam's race in the beginning. It was true at the flood. It was true on other occasions (Rom. 1:17-32). God still deals with all men on the same basis of no different kinds of grounds in Mt. 13:19-23, can become changed in life and conduct by accepting the gospel so that God will use them in His work. One might as well argue that fallow ground cannot be broken, that stony ground cannot have stones taken out, that the thorny ground must always be thorny, and that all ground cannot be made produce fruit, as to argue that all men cannot have their lives changed by the gospel to the point of being used of God and saved in the end if they so desire. To sum up the doctrine of election, we may say that the elect of God are _the whosoever will class _who come and take of the water of life FREELY and the non-elect are_ the whosoever will not class_ who CHOOSE to REJECT the gospel.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 20, 2022)

M80 said:


> View attachment 1184152


If Calvinism were true, Jesus could not have been tempted.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> WHO believes this made made term  - free will...............means that^^^^


Are you not reading Banjo?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> If Calvinism were true, Jesus could not have been tempted.


I don't think any thought went into post 146. It is good to know who the Pantheist are though.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> There are no reasonable or scripture that can be present to prove that God saves or keeps men contrary to their free choice.


You have yet to establish man's free choice.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 20, 2022)

gma1320 said:


> We are all predestined to be children of God. The Word of God tells us that He knew us before we were created in the womb. But God is a gentleman and He gives us the free will to choose whether or not we want to be one of His children.


The God of the Bible is no gentleman.


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## Spotlite (Oct 20, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Are you not reading Banjo?


Banjo isn’t saying this - “that He is somehow subject in salvation to the will and whim of man's "ability" to recognize.”

No one that believes “fee will” believes that ^^

I’m sure there’s confusion because everyone thinks that the predestination folks are saying man has no choice, but y’all end up saying “no one said man has no choice”.


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## M80 (Oct 20, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> I don't think any thought went into post 146. It is good to know who the Pantheist are though.


Well I’m glad you feel that way. You are so confident in yourself and it’s very apparent reading your comments. To many years ago we had this same discussion when I made the thread “God murdered his son” because if God made sin then he willingly made his Son to die on the cross. I’ve spent plenty of time back then showing verse after verse about free will and eternal salvation for you to only post one or 2 scriptures to twist their meaning. When I asked you if God chose to send one of your sons to He11 would you be upset. You told me you would still praise him. I’m thankful I serve the Lord that gave salvation to all men and men either chose him or reject him by their decision. There is a word in the Bible that says “foreknew”. You still wouldn’t have that either. God knows what decision we are going to make before the foundation of the World. That’s were predestination comes from, His foreknowledge. I guess I should have just stayed away again but it hurts me to know it just hurts me to see men give out wrong Information in here and not help bring folks to the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Jesus said to go out in the highways and hedges and compel them to come. Calvinist sit back and say “well if their going to get saved then it’s going to happen anyways so why should I be obedient to the Bible”. At least from most that I’ve known that’s how they act. A lot also don’t even go to church. Anyways, good luck hunting this year everybody.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 20, 2022)

*THINGS THE BIBLE DOES NOT SAY ABOUT ELECTION, FOREKNOWLEDGE AND PREDESITNATION.*

The Bible does not say that God called, chose, elected, foreknew, and predestinated from eternity who are to be saved or lost.

The Bible does say that saved have had their names in the book of life from all eternity.

The Bible does not say that all whom Christ died for are guaranteed eternal life and not one will be lost.

The Bible does not say that God could have saved every man of Adam's race if He had willed to do so.

The Bible does not say that non-elect sinners cannot possibly be saved regardless of what they do to be saved.

The Bible does not say That every sinner is so dead spiritually that he cannot see, hear, understand, believe in, confess sins, come to Christ, do any good, or obey the gospel in any degree in themselves without the new birth.

The Bible does say that the Holy Spirit will quicken and make alive elect sinners so that they can, hear, understand, and obey the gospel, but He will pass all others by and will not enable them to believe and obey.

The Bible does not say that God's plan of salvation and the atonement was made for a select few who will become the final elect. No provision is made for the majority of sinners, and they can never be saved even if they chose to be or cooperated in salvation.

The Bible does not say that man's free choice does not have one thing to do with his salvation or ****ation in any degree.

The Bible does not say that God's call, election, and salvation are not based upon any faith, tendency to obey, trait, power, or any possibility of any act, or attitude on the part of the sinner.

The Bible does not say that all men have a general outward call to salvation, but it is not possible for the majority of sinners to accept and obey the call, for they are not chosen, elected, or predestinated to eternal life.

The Bible does not say the few men who are the elect-sinners not only receive the general outward call, but they receive a special inward call by the Holy Spirit, which He never gives to the other sinners--a call that designates them as the special elect and that guarantees their final salvation.

The Bible does not say that it is not man, but God that determined from all eternity which persons would be saved or lost.

The Bible does say salvation is wholly a work of God from the beginning to the end, and in no sense, or in any degree can a sinner contribute to his own salvation in attitude, will, choice, faith, yieldedness, consecration, surrender, obedience, repentance, confession of sin and guilt, meeting conditions, or in coming to Christ, or accepting salvation.

The Bible does say salvation is not and cannot be a mutual arrangement, or a mutual, cooperation between God and man.

The Bible does say that elect is so controlled by God that one cannot possibly reject or refuse salvation or disobey God in any detail.

The Bible does say that the elect do, not have any responsibility at all to keep themselves in grace, obey the gospel, or be faithful to the end to be saved.

The Bible does not say that no sinner is free to obey God, and he cannot meet any of the gospel requirements until he is born again and made alive by the Holy Spirit.

The Bible does not say That God's choice to save a man is the only choice made in salvation, for man is incapable of making choices, and even if he could make them, they would be of no value in affecting his salvation one way or the other.

The Bible does not say no man of the elect-sinners can possibly resist the special inward call of the Holy Spirit to be saved, for grace is invincible and irresistable on the part of the elect-sinners.

The Bible does not say that the Holy Spirit is not limited in His work of applying salvation to any man whom He chooses, nor is he dependent upon man's co-operation for success in applying salvation processes.

The Bible does not say that man is a helpless, slave to God from the time the Holy Spirit chooses and applies salvation to him.

The Bible does not say that all acts and events, both small and great, come about as a result of God's election and eternal degrees, and nothing can happen in time or in eternity, in the heavens or on earth, without God's direct control and purpose.

The Bible does not say that Christ did not die for every sinner, but only for a special few who are the objects of God's sovereign will and grace.

The Bible does not say God does not leave it up to sinners, or their co-operation as to whether Christ's work will be effective and eternal in them or not.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> The Bible does say that saved have had their names in the book of life from all eternity.
> 
> The Bible does say that the Holy Spirit will quicken and make alive elect sinners so that they can, hear, understand, and obey the gospel, but He will pass all others by and will not enable them to believe and obey.
> 
> ...


Amen


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## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> When I asked you if God chose to send one of your sons to He11 would you be upset. You told me you would still praise him.


Why would I withhold praise from God in that matter, as if He did wrong? Or maybe the better question is, why do you?



M80 said:


> I guess I should have just stayed away again but it hurts me to know it just hurts me to see men give out wrong Information in here and not help bring folks to the knowledge of Jesus Christ.


I am not in the soul saving business. That is God's work.

Nobody goes to their own place because of anything we say or do.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Banjo isn’t saying this - “that He is somehow subject in salvation to the will and whim of man's "ability" to recognize.”
> 
> No one that believes “fee will” believes that ^^


He said that the free agent is absolutely free. He can't avoid it and you can't recognize it.



Spotlite said:


> I’m sure there’s confusion because everyone thinks that the predestination folks are saying man has no choice, but y’all end up saying “no one said man has no choice”.


And some simply can't comprehend the difference between a "choice" and a "free choice".


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## M80 (Oct 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Why would I withhold praise from God in that matter, as if He did wrong? Or maybe the better question is, why do you?
> 
> 
> I am not in the soul saving business. That is God's work.
> ...



“And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬ 
When we are born again we are all called into the ministry of reconciliation. That is to reconcile folks to Christ. I’m not in the saving business either but it is our calling to lead people to the savior. When he ascended to heaven in Acts he told us to be his witnesses. We have taken the role of Christ to become Christ like and to lead the lost to Christ. 
 Secondly in Romans 1:20 it says they are without excuse. Obviously it is a choice to accept him or reject him and someone lost can’t blame God for not giving them a chance for they are without excuse. To be without excuse means it isn’t Gods fault. If he chooses some for he11 and some for heaven it would be his fault that they go to he11. It isn’t Gods fault but their fault if they don’t get born again. So no I would not praise a god that chose to send someone to he11 without them having an opportunity for heaven. I praise God, the only true and living God that sent his son to be the sacrifice for all and that whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again I know you’ll come back with another question for me but it comes back to his foreknowledge. I’ve come so much further in this life when I quit listening to man and started learning from the greatest teacher ever, Jesus!!


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## Madman (Oct 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Nobody goes to their own place because of anything we say or do.


If I am saved, it is all God. If I am not saved, it is all me.


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## Spotlite (Oct 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> He said that the free agent is absolutely free. He can't avoid it and you can't recognize it.
> 
> 
> And some simply can't comprehend the difference between a "choice" and a "free choice".



You can argue on a play of words and cherry pick here and there from his posts all you want but Banjo has explained himself many times, and you continue to ignore that or address anything other than appearing "elite" and "chosen" to be the corrector of all things biblical.

Banjo basis his thought from scripture and not a quote from Justin Martyr;
Banjo - “This does not mean that the initiative of man's salvation is with man. It is with God who chose to make a way of salvation for all men, especially of them that believe and that conform to this plan of their own free choice.”

Scripture - 2 Peter 2. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in ........ heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Scripture - 1 Tim 4 - “For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.”

Jesus even bought the unbeliever; the one that denies, and is the Savior of all men, especially the believer, but you and Justin are convinced that “Jesus died for men of every kind, not all men"

Banjo’s use of “free moral agent” does not mean free. It means that God says “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”

BTW - heaven and earth is not recorded against you for choosing life Heaven and earth was called to record against you as a witness that you were given a choice of life or death. There are no ramifications of choosing life. 

I do not agree with everything that Banjo has posted, but I can read enough into his posts to know what he means by "free". Do not let your disdain for his belief dictate your responses.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
> ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬
> When we are born again we are all called into the ministry of reconciliation. That is to reconcile folks to Christ. I’m not in the saving business either but it is our calling to lead people to the savior. When he ascended to heaven in Acts he told us to be his witnesses. We have taken the role of Christ to become Christ like and to lead the lost to Christ.
> Secondly in Romans 1:20 it says they are without excuse. Obviously it is a choice to accept him or reject him and someone lost can’t blame God for not giving them a chance for they are without excuse. To be without excuse means it isn’t Gods fault. If he chooses some for he11 and some for heaven it would be his fault that they go to he11. It isn’t Gods fault but their fault if they don’t get born again. So no I would not praise a god that chose to send someone to he11 without them having an opportunity for heaven. I praise God, the only true and living God that sent his son to be the sacrifice for all and that whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again I know you’ll come back with another question for me but it comes back to his foreknowledge. I’ve come so much further in this life when I quit listening to man and started learning from the greatest teacher ever, Jesus!!


What's your take on who that group in Romans 1 were? It says that they knew God yet "exchanged" worshiping God for that of idols.

Also what's your take on this;
While God calls all men externally, He only calls His own internally. Those who truly respond to the external call are those who have been internally called by God and given new birth. Then they respond in faith to the external call.

"who hath reconciled us to himself" made me think of God's callings. It sounds like God reconciled us to himself.

Well actually anyone who'd like to respond.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> Well I’m glad you feel that way. You are so confident in yourself and it’s very apparent reading your comments. To many years ago we had this same discussion when I made the thread “God murdered his son” because if God made sin then he willingly made his Son to die on the cross. I’ve spent plenty of time back then showing verse after verse about free will and eternal salvation for you to only post one or 2 scriptures to twist their meaning. When I asked you if God chose to send one of your sons to He11 would you be upset. You told me you would still praise him. I’m thankful I serve the Lord that gave salvation to all men and men either chose him or reject him by their decision. There is a word in the Bible that says “foreknew”. You still wouldn’t have that either. God knows what decision we are going to make before the foundation of the World. That’s were predestination comes from, His foreknowledge. I guess I should have just stayed away again but it hurts me to know it just hurts me to see men give out wrong Information in here and not help bring folks to the knowledge of Jesus Christ. Jesus said to go out in the highways and hedges and compel them to come. Calvinist sit back and say “well if their going to get saved then it’s going to happen anyways so why should I be obedient to the Bible”. At least from most that I’ve known that’s how they act. A lot also don’t even go to church. Anyways, good luck hunting this year everybody.



Just my opinion: You don't seem to know enough about "Predestination" (your word, not mine) to comment on the concept.  But don't let that slow you down.

BTW "foreknowledge", only one part of Omniscience comes after Omnipotence and Aseity.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> “And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;”
> ‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5‬:‭18‬
> When we are born again we are all called into the ministry of reconciliation. That is to reconcile folks to Christ. I’m not in the saving business either but it is our calling to lead people to the savior. When he ascended to heaven in Acts he told us to be his witnesses. We have taken the role of Christ to become Christ like and to lead the lost to Christ.
> Secondly in Romans 1:20 it says they are without excuse. Obviously it is a choice to accept him or reject him and someone lost can’t blame God for not giving them a chance for they are without excuse. To be without excuse means it isn’t Gods fault. If he chooses some for he11 and some for heaven it would be his fault that they go to he11. It isn’t Gods fault but their fault if they don’t get born again. So no I would not praise a god that chose to send someone to he11 without them having an opportunity for heaven. I praise God, the only true and living God that sent his son to be the sacrifice for all and that whosever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Again I know you’ll come back with another question for me but it comes back to his foreknowledge. I’ve come so much further in this life when I quit listening to man and started learning from the greatest teacher ever, Jesus!!



Q: and what is the "ministry of reconciliation"?

A: 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin _to be_ sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him

2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit having
 [j]2 Corinthians 5:19 Lit placed in us


And who will respond: Jn 6:44, Jn 10:29

Not quite the message your preaching is it?


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 21, 2022)

*FORKNOWLEDGE (ROM. 8:28-30)*

*The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of od or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. If we are to take the Bible for what it says about God, we will have to recognize that God gets to know certain things concerning free moral agents just as they get to know some things about each other. This is plainly stated in Gen. 3:8; 6:6, 7; 11:5-8; 18:18-21; 22:12; Ex. 2:24, 25; Ps. 1:6; Jer. 17:10. God knows His plan from the beginning to the end, and certain passages used to teach foreknowledge from all eternity in connection with detailed events in the lives of free will really refer to His general plan only, not to free moral acts of those particular men, as we have seen under election above (Isa. 42:9; 45:11; 46:9; 48:6; Dan. 2>28, 29; Acts 15:18; Mt. 13:35; 24:36; Rev. 21-22).*

*FOREORDINATION AND PREDESTINATION (ROM. 8:27-30)*

The words _foreordain_ and _predestinate_ come from the same Greek word _prooridzo,_ meaning to determine beforehand. It is translated _determined before_ (Acts 4:28), _predestinated _(Rom. 8:29, 30; Eph. 1:5, 11), and _ordained_ (1 Cor. 2:7). In these passages we find that God predestinated Christ to die for the world (Acts 4:28); that _some_ (it is not stated _who or which ones_) would be saved by believing on Jesus as their Savior (Rom. 8:29, 30); that those who would freely choose to be saved were predestinated to be holy and to be children of God through Christ (Eph. 1:5); that these children of God have been predestinated inheritance according to the eternal purpose (Eph. 1:11); that they were predestined to be enlightened with wisdom kept secret from of old (1 Cor. 2-7); but no statement is made that God's predestined plan and purpose includes the free acts of free moral agents nor does it name those who will conform to the plan.

This means that God's law is the thing that is predestinated and not the individual conformity to it. All Scripture is clear that men are absolutely free to choose for themselves whether they conform to the predestined plan or not (Jn. 3:16-20; Rev. 22:17). Those that do conform will enjoy forever the predestined blessings and those who do not will suffer eternally the predestined, judgments of the plan. This and this alone is all that the Bible teaches concerning predestination in connection with free moral agents, as one can see under _election_ above.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 21, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *FORKNOWLEDGE (ROM. 8:28-30)*
> 
> *The word foreknowledge simply means the prescience of od or the knowing beforehand certain events that will happen. *


I see no benefit of reading further.
*Omniscience of God*
The *omniscience of God* deals with what God knows. The term literally means "all-knowing", understanding God's knowledge to be exhaustive of both the past, present, and future.


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## M80 (Oct 21, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Q: and what is the "ministry of reconciliation"?
> 
> A: 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.
> 
> ...



Q:
“But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭64‬-‭65‬ ‭KJV‬‬
A: looks like what I stand on is correct. He knew from the beginning “who” would “believe”. Therefore he knows who will believe and who will not. God doesn’t force one to believe or not. Don’t know why y’all make things so difficult.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> Q:
> “But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
> ‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭64‬-‭65‬ ‭KJV‬‬
> A: looks like what I stand on is correct. He knew from the beginning “who” would “believe”. Therefore he knows who will believe and who will not. God doesn’t force one to believe or not. Don’t know why y’all make things so difficult.


It's not difficult at all: just start with "In the beginning God ..." and never, ever forget it.


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## M80 (Oct 21, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> It's not difficult at all: just start with "In the beginning God ..." and never, ever forget it.


Amen but you have to read it all. I’ve always respected you and always will. Your answers are never arrogant.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> Amen but you have to read it all. I’ve always respected you and always will. Your answers are never arrogant.





M80 said:


> Amen but you have to read it all. I’ve always respected you and always will. Your answers are never arrogant.


Thank you Brother for your kind words, they are somewhat overwhelming. Please join me in thanking God for what He has given, and asking
that we not presume upon His grace for more.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> BTW - heaven and earth is not recorded against you for choosing life Heaven and earth was called to record against you as a witness that you were given a choice of life or death.


You are going to have to spend a little time with the word "against"(ḇā·ḵem).


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## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> All Scripture is clear that men are absolutely free to choose for themselves whether they conform to the predestined plan or not (Jn. 3:16-20; Rev. 22:17).


"absolutely free" 



Spotlite said:


> Banjo’s use of “free moral agent” does not mean free.





Spotlite said:


> but I can read enough into his posts to know what he means by "free".



And some of us are paying attention.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 21, 2022)

Madman said:


> If I am saved, it is all God. If I am not saved, it is all me.


God contending with man.

Dualism


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## Spotlite (Oct 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> You are going to have to spend a little time with the word "against"(ḇā·ḵem).


 I forgot about the wise and prudent lol ? 

Some folks feel as if God wasn’t smart enough to give us Bible in our own language. He’s just that good, you know.


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## Spotlite (Oct 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> "absolutely free"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not continuing to argue bud, there are 3 of you that are “right” regardless. Carry on….I’m loading my hunting stuff for tomorrow.


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## Madman (Oct 21, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> God contending with man.
> 
> Dualism


Some can continue to argue against Holy Scripture and read thereinto what they believe.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 21, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Q: and what is the "ministry of reconciliation"?
> 
> A: 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and [i]He has [j]committed to us the word of reconciliation.
> 
> ...



*RECONCILIATION (2 COR. 5:17-21)*

The word _reconciliation_ means to restore to favor, or for those to make friends again who were at enmity with each other. God and man were once friends and they communed with each other before the fall. When sin entered BY MAN'S FREE CHOICE that friendship was broken, and they became enemies. Through the atonement of Christ, the basis of friendship was re-established AND MEN ARE NOW FREE TO CHOOSE to become friends with God again. Reconciliation then is that God act of God whereby men who choose to do so can be made friends of God through the cross of Christ (Eph. 2:16; Col. 1:21; 2 Cor. 5:17-21). _God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and man all have a part in reconciliation as follows:_

God the Father is the one offended and He is the one to whom men must go for reconciliation (Eph. 2:11-18; Col. 1:20, 21; Acts 17:30, 31).

Man is the offender by his rebellion against God and he is the one who must be reconciled with God (Rom. 5:1-21; 8:1-13; Col. 1:20-23; 2 Cor. 5:17-21).

Christ is the mediator, and He is the one who represents both God and man in reconciling them as friends again (1 Tim. 2:4-7; 1 Jn. 2:1, 2). Christ is the one who became a friend to man by taking man's place to represent him in making peace with God (Rom. 5:12-21; 8:34; Heb. 4:14-16). Christ is the one who satisfied the offended party for the wrong done (Col. 1:20; Rom. 3:21-31; Rom. 6; 2 Cor. 5:17-21), and the One who provided the basis whereby the offender can be free from offence, and sin no more (Rom. 6:11-23; 8:1-13; 1 Jn. 1:7-9; 2:29; 3:5-10; 5:1-5, 18; Mt. 1:21).

The Holy Spirit is the direct power in the operation of reconciling God and man (Jn. 3:5; 16:7-11; Rom. 8:1-16; Gal. 5:16-26; 1 Cor. 6:11; 12:13).

Man after becoming reconciled to God, becomes a partner with God and an agent of the Holy Spirit in the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor. 5:14-21; 6:1).

The basis of reconciliation is the work of the mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus (Isa. 53; Jn.3:16; 17:22; Eph. 2:11-18; Col. 1:20-23; Rom. 5:10-21; 2 Cor.5:17-21; Heb. 2:17; 4:14-16; 1 Pet. 2:24).

The effect of reconciliation is that man is born again and is made a new creature and is again free from sin (Jn. 3:5; 2 Cor. 5:17-21; Eph. 4:22-24; Col. 1:20-22).


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 21, 2022)

*SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD (ROM. 9:1-24)*

By _sovereignty_ means that God is supreme in power and that He has absolute dominion over all creations. Some teach that because God is sovereign that He chooses to Lord it over all men as He pleases regardless of any just rights they might have and that He wills to save some and da-mn others solely because of His own choice, but as we have seen, God is not that kind of being. As far as power is concerned, He could destroy free moral agents regardless of their sin or holiness, but He cannot do this and be just and holy Himself. Therefore, since His character is absolutely holy and just and impeachable, He will not use His power except for the highest good of all creations. He does not even desire to misuse His power for He is righteous in all His ways.

God's sovereignty is real, but He does not choose to use it to hurt anyone. He gives all FREE MORAL AGENTS the right of CHOICE of RIGHT and WRONG IN ALL MATTERS and He holds THEM RESPONSIBLE FOR THEIR CHOICE. He is creator and Lord of all, but He is kind, merciful, just, loving, good, and compassionate towards all, and He does not will that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Pet. 3:8; 1 Tim. 2:4, 5). The following passages teach the sovereignty of God, but not one of them teaches that He misuses, His authority in any realm. He is consecrated to the highest good of all and obligates Himself to bless all men alike that come to Him through Jesus Christ. Note the Sovereignty of God is stated in Gen. 14:18-20; 24:3; Ex. 9:29; 15:18; Deut. 4:29; 10:14; 1 Chron. 29:11, 12; Ps. 89:11; Dan. 2:20, 21; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 4:11; 11:15.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> Q:
> “But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.”
> ‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭64‬-‭65‬ ‭KJV‬‬
> A: looks like what I stand on is correct. He knew from the beginning “who” would “believe”. Therefore he knows who will believe and who will not. God doesn’t force one to believe or not. Don’t know why y’all make things so difficult.


If God knew from the beginning the decisions of free moral agents then how can those free moral agents choose anything different that what God has already seen?
If I go to my closet and choose my red shirt over my blue shirt then God has already seen my election. How can I, at that point, choose my blue shirt?
All I'm saying is it's really the same thing. God gets His plan and glory done regardless of if he foresees or fore causes.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2022)

*Omnipotence means God is all-powerful.* 
*Omniscience means God is all-knowing*. 

I think this is very important, which of those came first? If God fore knew first then all his actions of power would be based on what he foresaw. This is what some on here are saying. That God foreknew first and chose vessels of good or bad based on His foreknowledge. In other words His foreknowledge influenced his power. I guess that's possible.


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## M80 (Oct 21, 2022)

B


Artfuldodger said:


> If God knew from the beginning the decisions of free moral agents then how can those free moral agents choose anything different that what God has already seen?
> If I go to my closet and choose my red shirt over my blue shirt then God has already seen my election. How can I, at that point, choose my blue shirt?
> All I'm saying is it's really the same thing. God gets His plan and glory done regardless of if he foresees or fore causes.


Because you chose the blue shirt second. He knows our heart before we ever pray. He knows our needs before we ask. The Bible says ye have not for you ask not. We miss a lot because we don’t pray and ask. He knows if we prayed for something before the foundations of the earth also.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2022)

M80 said:


> B
> 
> Because you chose the blue shirt second. He knows our heart before we ever pray. He knows our needs before we ask. The Bible says ye have not for you ask not. We miss a lot because we don’t pray and ask. He knows if we prayed for something before the foundations of the earth also.


Maybe if I ask it more simple. If God chooses vessels of wrath or honor based on foreknowledge, can either of those type of vessels change to another form, in the future, using free will?

Even easier, can a man God has already foreseen to not accept Him use his free will to choose God in the future?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 21, 2022)

Here is another example as seen from a Free Will perspective.
God using His foreknowledge chose Israel as a nation to bring salvation to the world by seeing that Israel would turn against Him. Thus he used this foreknowledge by having His son born as a Jew.
Further knowing beforehand that they would not believe he was the Messiah. Therefore allowing salvation to flow to the Gentiles by letting them be grafted into the nation that God chose to begin with for this very purpose.

I can really sorta see it all going down by foreknowledge. But at the same time, God had *Omnipotence* along with His *Omniscience*.
The mystery to us, regardless of what camp we are in is how does God separate those two traits to perform what He did and does?

When you really think about it His foreknowledge would have to be a part of His power. His every decision would have to be based on his foreknowledge. His foreknowledge would have to influence His power.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 22, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Not continuing to argue bud, there are 3 of you that are “right” regardless. Carry on….I’m loading my hunting stuff for tomorrow.


is it possible that there are three of us that think first of God?  I suspect thAt the are many  more.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> is it possible that there are three of us that think first of God?  I suspect thAt the are many  more.



1. What a humble servant - how on earth did you conclude that you’re one of the 3 right ones  

2. The assumption is there are those aren’t thinking of God first. I haven’t seen that from anyone.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> *SOVEREIGNTY OF GOD (ROM. 9:1-24)*
> 
> By _sovereignty_ means that God is supreme in power and that He has absolute dominion over all creations. Some teach that because God is sovereign that He chooses to Lord it over all men as He pleases regardless of any just rights they might have and that He wills to save some and da-mn others solely because of His own choice, but as we have seen, God is not that kind of being.


I haven't seen it. 
I can't see it.
I am not free to see it.

God does not cause me to demean Him.

I do see this...

 "predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will"

God works the will of man for His own purpose.

God is sovereign. Man is not free.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2022)

I think many folks see God as a "meany" if He is sovereign so they can't picture God as a Potter that would make vessels of wrath. Paul knew many of us would think that and thus why he said what he did about the matter in Romans 9 and 11. Paul knew that we would wonder about God doing that. We are actually questioning why the Great Potter would do such things. We see it as evil and unjust. Paul knew that we would.

So to make it "right" in their mind, many have said that what God really does is use foreknowledge and looked into the future and harden folks like Pharoah and Israel based on what He saw them do.

Sorta like God didn't make the Flint River flow from north to south. He used His foreknowledge and saw that it flowed that way before Creation and created it to flow that way based on His foreknowledge.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> I think many folks see God as a "meany" if He is sovereign so they can't picture God as a Potter that would make vessels of wrath.


Every will-worshipper hates the God of the Bible.

Away with Him, Away with Him!


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe if I ask it more simple. If God chooses vessels of wrath or honor based on foreknowledge, can either of those type of vessels change to another form, in the future, using free will?
> 
> Even easier, can a man God has already foreseen to not accept Him use his free will to choose God in the future?



“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not”

I think one would be fooling themselves to try to figure out how God works. 

Think about it, it was a perfect world with nothing to atone. If man wasn’t allowed to lust after his flesh, it’d still be a perfect world with nothing to atone. 

God allowing you to do anything doesn’t equate to “power to man”.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> “And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not”
> 
> I think one would be fooling themselves to try to figure out how God works.
> 
> ...


Yet the atonement in the form of the Word was already with God.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Yet the atonement in the form of the Word was already with God.


 Back to foreknowledge. He knew He’d allow things and He knew man would chose flesh.

My point was if man wasn’t allowed that by God, there’d been nothing to atone to begin with.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Every will-worshipper hates the God of the Bible.
> 
> Away with Him, Away with Him!


I heard the air is thin up there………


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> I heard the air is thin up there………


That may explain the clearer view.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> That may explain the clearer view.



Many see themselves in that position  ?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Many see themselves in that position  ?


With Christ as their pedestal, they know how they got there.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> With Christ as their pedestal, they know how they got there.


The Jews are also convinced of this….

Never saw such arrogance. You have a good day.


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## M80 (Oct 22, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> Maybe if I ask it more simple. If God chooses vessels of wrath or honor based on foreknowledge, can either of those type of vessels change to another form, in the future, using free will?
> 
> Even easier, can a man God has already foreseen to not accept Him use his free will to choose God in the future?


He has seen every aspect of each man’s life. He is all powerful. To not know that is to limit the power of God. Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He knows all. He knows if one was going to change his mind a thousand times over and over each day of our life. He knows the very hairs numbered on our head each day even the ones we loose while washing our hair. If we don’t believe that we limit Gods all knowing power. He spoke the world into existence. Don’t put limitations on his power. Man thinks to much and puts to much criteria on what if. There isn’t no what if’s with God. Nothing has occurred to God for he truly is a know it all. He is the only one.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 22, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> 1. What a humble servant - how on earth did you conclude that you’re one of the 3 right ones


Am I mistaken?  Where I was raised (where we described where we lived in miles from our nearest neighbor) the response to your post would be "name them Yella Belly".



> 2. The assumption is there are those aren’t thinking of God first. I haven’t seen that from anyone.


You may, or may not, recall that some years ago I told you that my "impression" (my lowest degree of certainty) was that these discussions were, for you, a recreational activity.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 22, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> I haven't seen it.
> I can't see it.
> I am not free to see it.
> 
> ...



You see then that God predestinated, me to tell you the truth of His Holy Word.


*Matt. 7:1-5*
1 Judge not that ye be not judge.
2 For with what judgment ye judge ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thy say to thy brother, let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Am I mistaken?  Where I was raised (where we described where we lived in miles from our nearest neighbor) the response to your post would be "name them Yella Belly".



Where I come from the guilty dog barks. You were not mistaken.


> You may, or may not, recall that some years ago I told you that my "impression" (my lowest degree of certainty) was that these discussions were, for you, a recreational activity.


I’m certain that your impressions have failed you more than once.

It takes a poor soul not be able to have fun in your spiritual life, as well as the rest of it


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> Never saw such arrogance.


It is rarely seen. It is usually overshadowed by my good looks.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> You see then that God predestinated, me to tell you the truth of His Holy Word.


Great! I will continue to watch for the time of it.


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## Spotlite (Oct 22, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> It is rarely seen. It is usually overshadowed by my good looks.


Lol ?


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Israel said:


> Everything is/was just as it must be. Even prepared to be. And someone was unashamed to be with me in all my own frustration...because He is not ashamed to identify with all that would "pull the trigger" on their very own self. (And take all creation with them)
> 
> In truth, that is a part of His work. "I have already done what you cannot do of yourself nor for yourself"
> 
> You can do nothing of yourself about yourself.


Amen. 

We have never done a single thing first.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2022)

M80 said:


> He has seen every aspect of each man’s life. He is all powerful. To not know that is to limit the power of God. Jesus said all power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. He knows all. He knows if one was going to change his mind a thousand times over and over each day of our life. He knows the very hairs numbered on our head each day even the ones we loose while washing our hair. If we don’t believe that we limit Gods all knowing power. He spoke the world into existence. Don’t put limitations on his power. Man thinks to much and puts to much criteria on what if. There isn’t no what if’s with God. Nothing has occurred to God for he truly is a know it all. He is the only one.


So to answer my question, the clay has to be what God has already seen what the clay would be. The clay can't change.


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## M80 (Oct 22, 2022)

The potter can mare the clay and remake it. What does that have to do with free will. God can allow things to happen in our life to get our attention. The spirit Burdens our heart and that’s why we listen to the Spirit guiding us. God for is my wife and kids were to die in a car wreck. That would be the will of God though and not a mistake. Do I quit serving God or keeping serving him and worshipping him. That’s the decision I must make. Gods not going to make me serve him or make me walk away. That’s my decision whether I follow him or not. Yet in the end he knew that before the foundations of the world. Still don’t make choosing folks for heaven or he11 if he mares the clay or not.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2022)

M80 said:


> The potter can mare the clay and remake it. What does that have to do with free will. God can allow things to happen in our life to get our attention. The spirit Burdens our heart and that’s why we listen to the Spirit guiding us. God for is my wife and kids were to die in a car wreck. That would be the will of God though and not a mistake. Do I quit serving God or keeping serving him and worshipping him. That’s the decision I must make. Gods not going to make me serve him or make me walk away. That’s my decision whether I follow him or not. Yet in the end he knew that before the foundations of the world. Still don’t make choosing folks for heaven or he11 if he mares the clay or not.


Then can the clay become anything other than what God has seen it become? I think you are saying it can't but not for sure.
Let's use Israel and an example. God chose a remnant by grace(using foreknowledge) and hardened the rest(using foreknowledge). Can an individual from either of those groups switch to the other group without God's mercy? Can God have mercy on whom he will have mercy using His power instead of foreknowledge?

And to show I'm not just picking on the Free Will crowd, I'd like to hear from the predestination crowd as well. How could God choose a Remnant and hardened the rest based on just His power since he has already seen what each individual of both groups would do before he chose and hardened?  Did he turn off his foreknowledge so as to use His power to have mercy on whom he would have mercy?


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 22, 2022)

I'm trying to figure this out in my head. God could have chose a Remnant based on grace and had mercy on whom he had mercy using His will, power, and foreknowledge. Yet this foreknowledge did not include what those individuals would become based on a future look at their works.

God did foresee who he would choose but it wasn't based on God seeing their future works.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 22, 2022)

Artfuldodger said:


> And to show I'm not just picking on the Free Will crowd, I'd like to hear from the predestination crowd as well. How could God choose a Remnant and hardened the rest based on just His power since he has already seen what each individual of both groups would do before he chose and hardened?  Did he turn off his foreknowledge so as to use His power to have mercy on whom he would have mercy?


Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.

God knows all things because He causes all things.


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## Madman (Oct 23, 2022)

Israel said:


> Who will have God the observer apart from God the actor? Who will have God the seer apart from God the knower? And who will have God the knower apart from God the sustainer, upholder of all things by the word of His power?
> 
> If the presence of Christ does not enlighten by that very presence the intimacy of God to all creation what gospel have you received? Is this not being made plain to you?
> 
> ...


There is no confusion in the mind of the man whose mind is subject to Christ.

“I will build my Church”

“to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up”

This doctrine has been settled, at least since Orange 2.
Only those who are part of the second schism kick against the goads.


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## Madman (Oct 23, 2022)

The despising of the “bride” is sad.

Each man now follows those teachings that tickle his ear.


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## Artfuldodger (Oct 23, 2022)

If in Romans 9 & 11, using Pharoah and Israel as examples, if God chose and hardened using foreknowledge, wouldn't that imply that God chose by works instead of grace?
I thought Paul's whole lesson was that God chose some and hardened others was based on God's grace and God having mercy on whom He would have mercy.
To then say God based it on foreknowledge changes the equation to works. If God looked ahead and based His choosing on works, then it wasn't grace. It wasn't God having mercy on whom He would have mercy. 
It also wasn't the Potter making vessels of each type as he pleased but making them based on the works he foresaw that those vessels would become.


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## gemcgrew (Oct 23, 2022)

Madman said:


> The despising of the “bride” is sad.
> 
> Each man now follows those teachings that tickle his ear.


Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what _is that_ to thee? follow thou me.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 23, 2022)

You know it is no wonder people are so confused about the Word of God when people cannot even stay on what the thread is about, but then again that's just the way the devil works the keep people from knowing the truth.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 23, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what _is that_ to thee? follow thou me.


your so blind !


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## gemcgrew (Oct 23, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> your so blind !


You're


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## brutally honest (Oct 23, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> your so blind !



... you probably think this thread is about you.

Sorry.  Couldn't resist a Carly Simon reference.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 23, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> ... you probably think this thread is about you.
> 
> Sorry.  Couldn't resist a Carly Simon reference.


No I give God the praise ! It's about the Word of God and that His Word is true, It is all His Scriptures. Which is sad because some will never understand! He has predestinated me to tell the truth of His Word and the Scriptures prove it!


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 23, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
> 
> God knows all things because He causes all things.[/QUOTE
> So you blame God for kids and babies which die of cancer and other sickness that are innocent with no sin I would have to say that is as about as low as one could think about God!


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## gemcgrew (Oct 23, 2022)

Banjo Picker said:


> So you blame God for kids and babies which die of cancer and other sickness that are innocent with no sin I would have to say that is as about as low as one could think about God!


Blame signifies disapproval. I do not place your feelings, or the lives of kids and babies, above my reverence of God. 

See now that I, _even_ I, _am_ he, and _there is_ no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither _is there any_ that can deliver out of my hand.

You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being.

This may be the first time you've encountered a man... who really believes in the God of the Bible.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 23, 2022)

gemcgrew said:


> Blame signifies disapproval. I do not place your feelings, or the lives of kids and babies, above my reverence of God.
> 
> See now that I, _even_ I, _am_ he, and _there is_ no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither _is there any_ that can deliver out of my hand.
> 
> ...


 no I encounter Jesus Christ a long time ago and been living for Him every since!  and this is not my first encounter with people living for the devil either.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 23, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You were not mistaken.



Thank you for the confirmation.


> I’m certain that your impressions have failed you more than once.



Of course they have; that's why I said "my lowest degree of certainty "
Had I more information available I would have described it as a thought, an opinion, a belief, or knowledge.  Which, in my opinion, makes that statement, and the remainder of the post meaningless.

Do you assign guilt to everyone that disagrees with you?

Have fun.


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## Spotlite (Oct 24, 2022)

hummerpoo said:


> Thank you for the confirmation.
> 
> 
> Of course they have; that's why I said "my lowest degree of certainty "
> ...



You do realize that you started this convo, I ignored you twice………and you’re accusing me of the very thing you’re doing?? 


> Do you assign guilt to everyone that disagrees with you?.





If you want to discuss the topic, I’d be more than happy to.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 24, 2022)

Spotlite said:


> You do realize that you started this convo, I ignored you twice………and you’re accusing me of the very thing you’re doing??
> 
> 
> View attachment 1184909
> ...


Had you been "paying attention" you would of ask "What do you know" or "What do you think you know".  

HAVE FUN.


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## brutally honest (Oct 24, 2022)

Not trying to curry favor, but the moderators of the spiritual forum are the finest people on God’s green earth.


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## The Original Rooster (Oct 24, 2022)

Lord have mercy on us! I've never seen folks want to know what's in the sausage so badly. If you trust the butcher, just enjoy the sausage folks!


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 24, 2022)

brutally honest said:


> Not trying to curry favor, but the moderators of the spiritual forum are the finest people on God’s green earth.



If one is not changing their opinion and knows they will not change another’s opinion their motivation for the original post is clear to me.


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## hummerpoo (Oct 24, 2022)

Ruger#3 said:


> If one is not changing their opinion and knows they will not change another’s opinion their motivation for the original post is clear to me.


All one need do is look at the list of treads (specifically the OP) on which comments have been made this month in "Spiritual Discussions and Study".

Only God can guide us.


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## Ruger#3 (Oct 24, 2022)

Couple rules come into play in this and many other threads here….

“Woody's Campfire Talk of Georgia Outdoor News Forums, hereinafter The Forum, is a private Forum. Membership in the Forum is a privilege granted solely and exclusively by the Forum. Privileges may be terminated at any time at the sole discretion of the Forum and without notice.”

“Furthermore, it is the intent of the Forum to provide an atmosphere where every member, regardless of age, nationality, race, creed, religion, political persuasion, sex, or level of education, shall be treated with the respect due them. This concept will be enforced with vigor.”


“The Forum expects and encourages the lively exchange of ideas and opinions. The Forum also expects these exchanges to be free of rancor and personal invectives. The rules are simple and clear for all. Be polite or be gone.”

Debate all you want from any perspective, calling names and being disrespectful of another due to their view will not be tolerated.

Enough said…….carry on.


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 26, 2022)

*Jn. 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but God.

Which were, meaning Who believe on His name (v 12; Mt. 1:21; Acts 2:21; 3:16; 4:12).

Born, meaning a bringing forth. A word used of one who brings others to Christ by the gospel (1 Cor. 4:15; Ph'm. 10) and of people who are adopted into the family of God (Jn. 3:3; 1 Jn. 2:29; 3:9; 5:1, 18; Rom. 8:15). It does not mean in either of these uses that a new body, soul, and spirit have come into existence, as when used of Christ who is the only begotten Son of God and the first begotten of Mary (v 14, 18; 3:16).

not of blood nor of, meaning Not of blood that is, not by of natural descent from man.

nor of the will of the flesh, meaning, Not, by right of the flesh merely to escape punishment.

nor the will of man, but by God, meaning, Not, by right of man's theories and religions, but of God who took man's place to save him (Jn. 3:16; Rom. 3:20-30; 2 Cor. 5:14-21).*


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## Banjo Picker (Oct 27, 2022)

Ezek. 18:4 Behold all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

The soul that sinneth, it shall die meaning This is the original death penalty expressed in other words (v 4; Gen. 2:17; Rom. 1:29-32; 5:12-21; 6:14-23; 8:12-13; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21).


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