# sighting in my hawken replica



## Roadking65 (Aug 29, 2016)

Okay, This being the first season I've had to prepare for BP week, I have been trying to sight in my hawken. I am using iron sights which I am familiar with. I killed 2 bucks with my iron sights on my 30-30 last year. One at 70yds the other at 40.
I'm using a plastic fold out table and a pair of molded sandbags from wally world. 
I cant seem to get the gun to pattern at all. Its all over the place. I switched back to fffg goex from the BH209. I'm shooting .495 PRB's with a pre lubed patch. Started with 80 gr. reduced to 70gr. I have not adjusted the sights. I keep shooting at the center of the bulls eye. I run a patch with a tiny bit of solvent and several dry patches thru the barrel after ea shot. Is that wrong to do?
I also allow the barrel to cool for 10-15 min between shots. (95 deg OAT) I erected a shade umbrella over the table and gun during cool down.
I'm starting to think maybe the barrel bedding/mount is too loose? It has a flat pin to remove and barrel comes out of the stock.
Any pointers would be appriciated. Should I switch to maxiballs packed with lube? No patch?


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 29, 2016)

Roadking65 said:


> Okay, This being the first season I've had to prepare for BP week, I have been trying to sight in my hawken. I am using iron sights which I am familiar with. I killed 2 bucks with my iron sights on my 30-30 last year. One at 70yds the other at 40.
> I'm using a plastic fold out table and a pair of molded sandbags from wally world.
> I cant seem to get the gun to pattern at all. Its all over the place. I switched back to fffg goex from the BH209. I'm shooting .495 PRB's with a pre lubed patch. Started with 80 gr. reduced to 70gr. I have not adjusted the sights. I keep shooting at the center of the bulls eye. I run a patch with a tiny bit of solvent and several dry patches thru the barrel after ea shot. Is that wrong to do?
> I also allow the barrel to cool for 10-15 min between shots. (95 deg OAT) I erected a shade umbrella over the table and gun during cool down.
> ...



What twist rate is it? Some of those faster twists just don't like roundballs.


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## Roadking65 (Aug 29, 2016)

Well I've read its 1:48 but I dont know how to measure that. I can tell you looking into the barrel it looks like a very slow twist. I purchased the gun used. It is not an original its a TC. I don't know if that makes a difference or not.
Thanks


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## stabow (Aug 29, 2016)

Did you check your patches to see what they look like after the shot ? Sometimes the TC shoot a conical bullet better.


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## deermaster13 (Aug 29, 2016)

My 54 Hawken likes the Hornady 425 Great Plains bullets. The 1 in 48 twist seem to take a conical better in what I have shot. I use 70 grains Pyrodex. I have no issues pushing that chunk of lead thru a deer. Just my .2cents worth lots guys no more than me on here.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Aug 29, 2016)

Try different patches....BP guns need a tight seal
to ensure consistent pressure for best accuracy..
If your ball/patch combo loads easily, you may
not be getting good seal and could be causing
poor accuracy....


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 29, 2016)

350 grain T/C Maxi-hunters shoot great in my Hawken with the 1:48 twist. And they're devastating on deer.


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## leoparddog (Aug 30, 2016)

1-48" should shoot a PRB just fine with the right patches.  Another item to consider is how consistently do you seat the ball on the powder.  Inconsistent seating can change velocity and POI.  

My routine is to seat and then let the ram rod "drop" in the barrel until it bounces on it's own.  If the drop results in no bounce then the ball is still settling down on the powder.


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## Roadking65 (Aug 30, 2016)

I have to apply a fair amount of pressure to start the prb combo, but once I start with the ramrod, I don't think I use harder than normal pressure. One thing I'm doing is tamping the ramrod down with the palm of my hand once it bottoms out to make sure its seated, is that not a good idea? Not real hard just a good bump or two. I also leave the butt of the rifle on my boot not the ground.

I haven't tried using a different patch. Also I have not tried the Maxi bullets.
I haven't even seen a used patch on the ground yet. I will look next time.

I do not have anyone around to "show" me how but I didn't add any bore butter just the pre lubed patch (yellow in color from lube I'm assuming) on top of the powder.

The rifle has a set trigger and then the firing trigger and its like a hair trigger. Is there a way to adjust that? Is that what the tiny screw in between the triggers is for? 

Thanks again 
RK


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## Roadking65 (Aug 30, 2016)

NC Hillbilly, what grain powder load do you use with your maxi bullets? I see deermaster13 uses 70 gr. pyrodex. I have the fffg goex.  Do you just lube them with bore butter in the grooves and then put the bullet right on top of the powder with no plug or patches right?

Thanks
RK


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## NCHillbilly (Aug 30, 2016)

Roadking65 said:


> NC Hillbilly, what grain powder load do you use with your maxi bullets? I see deermaster13 uses 70 gr. pyrodex. I have the fffg goex.  Do you just lube them with bore butter in the grooves and then put the bullet right on top of the powder with no plug or patches right?
> 
> Thanks
> RK



With the 350 grain maxi-hunters I use 90 grains of ffg or Pyrodex in the Hawken. With the finer-grained fffg you would want to use considerably less, or you will be running too much pressure. They come pre-lubed, yeah, just seat it right on the powder, no patch.

One other question: are you getting good, fast ignition? Slight hang-fires from a dirty nipple or bolster can wreak havoc with grouping, too.


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## SASS249 (Aug 30, 2016)

Just to be sure:
You wrote-  I do not have anyone around to "show" me how but I didn't add any bore butter just the pre lubed patch (yellow in color from lube I'm assuming) on top of the powder.

Are you saying you load powder, then put the patch down on the powder and then load a ball on top of that?

If so then you are doing it wrong for sure and would get the kind of results you describe.   If however, you are allowing the patch to wrap around the ball and seating the ball/patch combination then there are a number of things left to try.


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## Darkhorse (Aug 30, 2016)

Your gun is a Thompson Center Hawken or Renegade. I don't see what caliber the gun is, .50 or .54, if .54 it's most likely a Renegade. Regardless it has a 1:48 twist.
Either one is capable of fine accuracy with a roundball, you just have to keep shooting and find the right loads. I have read that the original Hawken rifles had a 1:48 twist.
Back in the 70's and 80's I owned a Renegade in .54, nobody told me the gun wasn't supposed to be accurate so I shot a lot of matches over the years. I took a lot of trophys home including a 3rd place in 50 yard offhand at the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association regional match held at Riverbend gun club outside Atlanta.
My loads were; At 25 and 50 yards 55 grains of 2F, 230 round ball, pillowticking patch lubed with Crisco.
At 100 yards 90 grains of 2F.
For hunting I started with 120 grains of 2F but later dropped to 110. These hunting loads shot about a 4 inch group at 100 yards, much less accurate than the 55 and 90 gr load.

Did you buy the rifle used? If the rifle was not properly cleaned before storage then the black powder residue has most likely caused corrosion in your barrel. BP residue is very corrosive and must be completely cleaned out after every shooting session. This would cause the kind of grouping you are talking about.
Clean the barrel and then run a wet patch several times down your barrel. Does it feel smooth and slick or do you feel roughness or rough spots? Rough spots indicate corrosion.
The rifle does not need bedding unless someone has been gouging out the wood in the barrel channel. BP rifles are different than centerfires. The flat pin is historically correct and the barrel channels are usually looser than a centerfire.
There is a little screw between the triggers. This is the adjustment for the front trigger. Be real careful as too light can cause unwanted hammer drops.
Now for the parts I hate to mention so don't take offense.
You may be flinching. It is not uncommon for a BP gun to cause a shooter to flinch. If so, you are not alone. When I started shooting flintlocks my groups were terrible and I recognized I had a bad flinch. Sometimes these rifles are called flinchlocks. I spent a couple of months learning not to flinch.
If possible I would find someone else to shoot your rifle off your benchrest. If he shoots tight groups then you know the rifle is fine and you need to work on that flinch. If he shoots the same size groups you have been getting then that indicates something in the rifle or loading.

This link is pretty good. It tells most of what you need to know about loading and shooting a ML.

http://hunting.about.com/od/blackpowder/ht/htloadbprifle.htm


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## 7Mag Hunter (Aug 30, 2016)

When you seat the ball/patch combo, just apply
firm pressure to seat the ball , but do not exert
to much pressure....


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## SASS249 (Aug 31, 2016)

If you still can't get it to shoot send me a PM and I will try to get with you at the range.


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## Roadking65 (Aug 31, 2016)

Ok Thanks for all the responses!!

NCHillbilly: Since I switched back to the Goex I use the 777primers and have no noticeable lag between trigger pull and ignition.

SASS249: I hold the patch over the barrel end and center it and allow the patch to wrap around the ball. Thanks I may take you up on the range time if changing a few things don't do the trick!

DarkHorse: Sorry I didn't mention its a .50 Cal. And I appriciate what you are saying about flinching. I'm usually the guy others hand thier guns to to shoot groups with. Thats why I'm a little frustrated at this. I could be, not denying that. Yes I bought the rifle used. Maybe I need to backup and do a deep cleaning? What method should I use to ensure the fouling is out of the rifling grooves?

7Mag Hunter: So tamping it is a definate no no? I should just give it a firm push?

Thank you all Very Much!
RK


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## Darkhorse (Aug 31, 2016)

SASS249 said:


> If you still can't get it to shoot send me a PM and I will try to get with you at the range.



I would take SASS249 up on this ASAP.

To really clean the fouling I would remove the barrel and nipple, then heat some water and melt a little bar soap in it (just a few flakes skimmed off with a sharp knife) pour the water into a small bucket be sure the nipple area is underwater. Place the breech end into the water. Wet a patch and start swabbing the barrel until it begins to pull water up and out of end of the barrel. If it has fouling you will see it come out of the nipple hole and the water will cloud. Do this a few minutes then let it sit awhile to soften any remaining fouling, then start swabbing again.
Pour out the water and stand the barrel upside down on a piece of paper and let it drain.

Personally I feel that if there is fouling in your bore then damage has already been done.
Corrosion or rust is the real problem. If a black powder rifle is not properly cleaned then it will rust. Left unchecked the barrel could be ruined.
No amount of flushing with anything will remove this rust. This is a fact.
Luckily prefit barrels are available for your TC, just take off the old and put on the new.
This a worse case scenario but a very common one. I'd let SASS249 check your barrel.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/pdfs/catalog/page_205.pdf

https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=16&t=197506


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## SASS249 (Aug 31, 2016)

I guess one thing we have not asked:
You say it is all over the place.  Exactly what distance are you shooting at and what type of group are you getting?


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## GunnSmokeer (Aug 31, 2016)

As others said above, I'd look at the thickness of the patch, and make sure it's the right size patch for that ball/ bore diameter.
If the patch isn't tightly squeezed into the lands and grooves as you load the gun, it isn't going to impart a good spin to the ball on the way out.

A black powder muzzle-stuffer with good iron sights and shooting patched round balls should be able to hold a 3" group at  100 yards, right?  Is that a reasonable standard to expect the gun, assuming no error on the part of the shooter, and no gusty winds?


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## Darkhorse (Aug 31, 2016)

I think a good rifle should be able to shoot a 3" group at 100 yards. But a lot of variables come into play here, and most of them have to do with the shooter. The shooter must be capable of shooting 3" groups to actually have a chance to shoot one.
The quality of the barrel has a lot to do with it also. What is one barrel maker's standard of accuracy may be  far below or above anothers.
Right now I have 2 flintlocks that I built years ago. One has a Rice swamped barrel in .40 caliber. When I shot it at 100 yards the group size for 5 shots was right at 3" and with primitive sights I am very pleased with that kind of accuracy.
The other one is a Colerain in .54 caliber. I haven't shot a 100 yard group with this one. But at 50 yards it will shoot a jagged hole if I do my part.
FWIW I have never shot a deer with a muzzleloader past 50 yards. So I personally don't feel the need for 100 yard groups. Especially with 63 year old eyes.
One can see the target and sights much better at 50 yards so I recommend load work done at this distance. Once you get it all worked out and are shooting good at 50, then's the time to stretch it out.


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## Roadking65 (Sep 1, 2016)

Thanks again fellas!
To:
 DarkHorse: When I look into the barrel with a strong light it don't appear to be rusted, but that don't mean the rifling isn't full of fouling. Thanks for the clarification on water cleaning. I will accomplish that this weekend, and let you know what I found.

SASS249: I'm shooting at 50yds.Using 10" See Um stick on targets mounted on cardboard. No grouping at all. one shot just below bulls eye, next shot upper left quardrant on outer 10" ring.
Next shot to right 4"on center elev. line. Not even close to grouping. Incedentally, when I first shot this rifle,last year, I went to Jasper Ga. with a friend who's Dad shoots BP. He loaded me up a powerbelt bc its what He had on hand. Used 2 pyrodex pellets 100gr. 50yds. same result. Was all over the target. Thats when I got on here and began reading posts and read about the Hawken designed for PRB's. I thought the gun just didn't like powerbelts and pellets. Maybe I have had a barrel problem all along??

GunnSmokeer: How do I determine the patch is the correct thickness? I purchased the lead from BassPro. They say.495. I have not measured them with a pair of calipers which I do have and can check it. I can tell you that its not excatly easy to get it shoved down the barrel. Takes a bit of force. Even the bullet starter short 4" takes a bit of force. I cannot tell you if its a "normal" amount of force bc of my inexperience.

I also don't see myself shooting a deer at more than 100 yds. My eyes are 51 and I have a hard time seeing details much farther than that now. The lease I hunt on has plenty of active stands with less than 100 yard shots. I usually take my open sighted Win 30-30 to those stands. I would be extremely happy with a 3 in group at even 75 yards. I can shoot a 2 in group at 100 with that Win Model 94 with a few shots figure 8ing all in or touching the bulls eye. I'm Not trying to brag I just want you guys to know that on a scale of 1-10 I'd consider myself to be at least a 7. certainly not the best out there but better than average with the exception of this Hawken!! So Thank-you Thank-you Thank-you
for all the suggestions and help!


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## Darkhorse (Sep 1, 2016)

Roadking let's look at your patch and lube. The patch should be a tight woven piece of cotton fabric. Around .015 to .017 thickness. A piece of real pillow ticking is perfect.
(I don't have a .50 so I'm guessing a little on the patch thickness.) In all the .54's I used/use a .530 RB and .0175 ticking. In the .40 I use a .390 RB and the same .0175 ticking.
I buy my patch material at a fabric store. The last I bought was about 10 years ago and I bought enough to last close to forever. One problem in today's world is a lot of this stuff is not 100% cotton so before buying a bunch take a small piece outside and burn it with a lighter. If it chars and burns you are good to go. If it appears to melt then it's not what your after. You don't want this melting goo in your barrel.
Now you got your patch you need to lube it. Plain Crisco works fine. That's what a lot us used before the internet revealed other lubes out there. Plus Crisco is readily available.
Wonder Lube also works fine except for a couple of items. Too much wonder lube can turn watery in hot weather and run into your powder and pan so use just enough and you are OK. The other thing is it does season your barrel. Even after cleaning running a dry patch through the barrel comes out looking brown, thick and like the barrel is not clean. This doesn't appear to hurt anything and can be removed with brake cleaner on a patch.
I used a lot of it in the past and still use it some. And it is readily available.
For hunting I use Track of the Wolf's Pure Mink Oil. This is pure Mink Oil with no additions. Don't use the Mink Oil for boots sold at the shoe store as it has more ingredients added.
When shooting ticking I lube the dyed side. Rub a little on a spot larger than the ball. Apply to where you can just see it starting to show on the other side. Center your ball on this lubed spot. Once you decide on a lube you can cut strips wide enough for your ball and prelube the entire strip. Carry this tied to your shooting bag pouch or carry it inside the pouch or whatever you use to hold your stuff. Oh, btw, the lubed side should go on the bottom and into the barrel.
Once you have bought a yard or more patching you need to wash and dry it a couple of times. This will remove the factory sizing and and make the patch softer and easier to handle and load.
There are a ton of patch lubes out there from store bought to many homemade formulas. But one of those I mentioned should get you started. Later on you can find another one that more suits you.
One that I use a lot for range shooting, especially in the .40 is "Original LeHigh Valley Patch lubricant" This stuff really allows you to shoot many shots without cleaning and it is an excellent lubricant as well. This lube is not for hunting. It contains a lot of alcohol and will dry out on the patch. Depending on weather it will corrode the chamber area in as soon as overnight to a few days.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 1, 2016)

I have an old Hawken that has been shot and abused for a couple decades, has killed a tractor-trailer load of deer, with a horribly pitted barrel, and it still shoots about 2" groups at 50 yards with me shooting it off a simple porch rail rest, no sandbags.


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## 7Mag Hunter (Sep 2, 2016)

NCHillbilly said:


> I have an old Hawken that has been shot and abused for a couple decades, has killed a tractor-trailer load of deer, with a horribly pitted barrel, and it still shoots about 2" groups at 50 yards with me shooting it off a simple porch rail rest, no sandbags.




X-2...I have had my 54 cal Hawken close
to 25 yrs and i consider it a 50 yd gun...

To the OP, don't get hung up on store
bought patches...go to your wifes rag bin
or sewing basket and try different material until you have tight fit "all the way " down the barrel...
A patch should be snug as it goes down the barrel....
As others have suggested, a 5 gal bucket
of hot soapy water and some bore
swabs and brushes to clean the barrel
before shooting is in order....


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## Roadking65 (Sep 4, 2016)

Okay! 1st things 1st, I told you guys a wrong ball size. I'm using .490 ball not .495. I Apologize for that. Also I measured my pre lubed patches. they are about .012 thick. So add it all together and I get .502.

Today I am using a foaming cleaner that says leave in barrel for an hour the 1st time using it. Then I'm going to try the hot soapy water cleaning method. I removed the barrel for easier access doing this.

Thought I saw those pillow ticking patches somewhere once hanging on the wall.

Another thing I read while looking at goex website. They have a chart listing recommended loads. They only listed one for fffg and roundball ammo. 50 grains. in a rifle.  Any thoughts?


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## Roadking65 (Sep 4, 2016)

I know it says reselling black powder is illegal. I have only found that I can buy goex ffg by 24 1 lb cans in a case. Is it illegal to get others who would want to pitch in and split an order?


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## SASS249 (Sep 4, 2016)

Most people use .490 roundballs in 50 caliber rifles.  However, some rifles shoot better with .495.  Likewise, some rifles like a thicker or thinner patch than others.  One of the things that make these rifles interesting is finding the combination that works for you.

I have one 50 cal that simply will not shoot well with a 490 ball, but with a 495 and very thin patch is a tack driver.

A common recommendation for a starting load is one grain per caliber, so that is what goex is indicating.  

If I were working up the load for this rifle, I would start with 50 grains, a 490 roundball and a pillow ticking patch.  If I could not get that to group I would vary patch thickness up (to the point you cannot load it) and down keeping the charge at 50 grains.  

Only after all that and still not getting the rifle to group would I switch to a 495 roundball and repeat.

If after all that you still cannot get it to group it is time to start thinking about lapping a barrel or replacing one.

One other variable is all of the above is done with fffg powder.  Every once in a while you find a 50 that prefers ffg.

Also, every once in a while you find a rifle that just needs a couple of hundred shots fired before it settles down.  I had a flintlock I about gave up on but around the 200 th shot it went from not even being on the paper to shooting good enough to win a lot of matches.

Once you get a patch and ball combination that shoots good then you can start increasing the powder charge to work up a hunting load.  However, I have killed a bunch of deer using a load of 50 grains of ffg in my 50 cal.

In your first post you indicated you were wiping the barrel between shots and waiting 10-15 minutes for the rifle to cool.  Qiping between shots is OK, although some rifles shoot better from a slightly fouled barrel, but you really do not need to wait that long between shots.


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## Roadking65 (Sep 4, 2016)

Thank you very much for your time SASS249 !!
You are giving me way more options than I thought I had!
I need to find a supplier who has some .495 Rb's and possibly some different patches. I know I saw a place once that had several, but don't remember where I was last year when I saw it.

I don't wipe it too good, just a loose patch. Only reason waiting was after 2 back to back shots the barrel was noticeably warm to the touch (95 OAT). I've always heard to pop off a primer before loading your first shot to "foul" the barrel a little bit. Is that true?

Also after cleaning the barrel with that foam and running solvent with those wire brushes thru and then patches I see I have some rusting between the rifling. Looks mild but I'm not sure. Very discouraging. The Gun looks well cared for otherwise.

Also I am using FFFG. Its all I have in my possession right now. I feel like I am running out of time to get this thing right. More finesse to this than I thought. But I like it


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## SASS249 (Sep 4, 2016)

If you are in Atlanta I have plenty of .495 roundballs fi you do not find any.  Pillow ticking can be found at most fabric stores buy a yard and if it does not work out for shooting you can always use it for cleaning patches.

Minor amounts of rust may not be a problem.

Most people do pop a cap before loading, mainly to make sure the nipple is clear and to burn off any oil.  I usually burn a little powder as a fouling shot, not sure if it makes any difference, but I have always done it.

Have a friend who once bought a new .270 rifle, loaded up a mid-range load pulled from a reloading manual and the rifle shot basically one-hole groups at 100 yards.  He sold it the next week, said it was the most boring rifle he ever owned since there was nothing to fool with or figure out.  You seldom have that issue with muzzleloaders.

I bet the cleaning you are doing will make a difference.  hang i there and if you want some .495 rounballs let me know.


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## saltysenior (Sep 4, 2016)

i went thru the same deal years ago w/ my Hawkins....the best load she shot was 90grs of FFg and a perfect round ball...the secret was a green plastic wad that was hallow on both ends...i don't know if you can find them anymore.......


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## SASS249 (Sep 5, 2016)

Deercreek on Fairground Road in Marietta will have real black powder.


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 5, 2016)

SASS249 said:


> Most people use .490 roundballs in 50 caliber rifles.  However, some rifles shoot better with .495.  Likewise, some rifles like a thicker or thinner patch than others.  One of the things that make these rifles interesting is finding the combination that works for you.
> 
> I have one 50 cal that simply will not shoot well with a 490 ball, but with a 495 and very thin patch is a tack driver.
> 
> ...



Yep. I have a .54 that .530 balls are just too tight in, even with a .010 patch, and I could never get it to shoot right until I tried .526 roundballs with an .018 patch. Shoots great with that over 75 grains of FFg.


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## Darkhorse (Sep 5, 2016)

I shot .530 roundballs with a .018 pillow ticking patch in both my Renegade and Lyman Great Plains rifle. Both rifles were accurate and the combination was easy to load.
But with my .54 Colerain that same combo is so tight I can hardly seat the ball. Now it shoots good. Real good. But I don't need a hunting rifle that requires a hammer to seat the ball.
So I'm buying a lee mold in .526 and sticking to the same patch material. 
Same thing with my .40 cal Rice. A .390 ball with the .018 ticking patch is almost impossible to seat without a hammer. I have some .015 material, though not as dense and it tears sometimes, I can't tell any difference in the accuracy.
Just gotta find what the gun likes.


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## snuffy (Sep 6, 2016)

Hello neighbor.
Cant help with the 50 ca. I shoot a 54cal. Lyman Great Planes Hunter and have had great results with this bullet and 100 grains of 2f Goex.

http://www.muzzleloading-bullets.com/

Also this company says they will sell as little as 5 lbs. of powder. Seems to be good prices also.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Content.aspx?PAGE=Black Powder

Hope this helps.

From you screen name I assume you ride?


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## mallardk (Sep 6, 2016)

*Sight*

Just throwing this out there  I have a replica Hawken 50.  About 15 years ago had it sighted in and shooting out to 100 yards with iron sights no problem.  Went to Ossabaw island on BP hunt.  First day, missed pig at 50 yards, blamed on bad shot but kept thinking I did everything right.  Next day deer at 60 yards, missed again, now I'm questioning why I was born, life sux , etc.  I just happened to look gun over when I noticed the rear sight was barely hanging on barrel, literally if screw had turned one more turn it would have fell off.  I got out my pocket swiss army knife tighten the sight back down and within 10 minutes nice little 8 point walking straight to me , only shot i had was between the top of the shoulders.  Dropped him like a bag of rocks.


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## snuffy (Sep 7, 2016)

Made mistake in first post. Should have been 2F Goex.
Have corrected it.


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## Roadking65 (Sep 7, 2016)

Thanks once again fellas! I hope I can return the favor someday!

SASS249: Like the 270 story! I may have found a 1lb can of FFg today. Guy just has to remember to bring it in this afternoon.
Also I will go to fabric store today if I can (wed 9/7/16). Guess I will just cut them about the same diameter as the pre lubed ones? I live on the south side near McDonough Ga. Does that place in marietta sell round balls?

SNUFFY: Yes I ride. 02 elegtraglide,03 Heritage 100 Anniv blk/slvr. Thank you for the info. 

MALLARDK:I didn't think of that, I will check the torque of the sights later today !!!! I havent noticed them loose to the touch, but they could be moving around  thanks!

To All reading this continuation  : I will not give up! I want to hunt with this gun! Most of the hunting stands we have at the lease where I hunt (Telfair Co.) Are close in shots less than 100 yds. Most avg 50-75.


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## snuffy (Sep 7, 2016)

If you see an old ugly guy on a white Heritage around McDonough stop and say hello.


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## Roadking65 (Sep 12, 2016)

ok I switched powder to FFg BlackDiamond. Loaded 70 grains and thanks to SASS249 , used .495 round ball ammo and my pre lubed patches. Now I'm getting good nuff groups to kill a deer! These were at 50 yds and same results at 75yds!

http://forum.gon.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=884013&stc=1&d=1473683610


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## NCHillbilly (Sep 12, 2016)

Good deal!


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## Rainmaker (Oct 3, 2016)

Good morning,

Glad you you were finally able to find an acceptable load. I too have been struggling with finding an accurate load with my TC Hawken over the past 3 weekends. 

Funny how I spend 3 hours shooting, but only shoot about 15 bullets in that time. I have been thoroughly cleaning between shots to ensure the best accuracy. 

Saturday I spent most of the afternoon with Goex 3F and 385 grain Hornady Great Plains bullets. This is a percussion rifle. My grouping at 60 yards was terrible IMO. I'm using irons but do have the TC peep sight on the tang. 

Yesterday I finally got a load to shoot acceptable. I used some old Powerbelt bullets - 295 grains - and 80 grains of Triple 7. 

It produced 1 3/4" 3 shot groups for me at 60 yards. 

I'm now ready to go. I would really like to find a roundball load for this rifle, but don't have the time this year before muzzle loader season.


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## Darkhorse (Oct 3, 2016)

You shouldn't have to fully  clean the barrel each shot, the labor and trouble far outweigh the benefits. However you can swab the barrel with a damp, not wet but just damp, patch followed by a dry patch.
Your rifle has a patent breech which means a normal jag and patch won't reach the bottom. If you clean with a really wet patch moisture has been known to migrate to the bottom of your breech. When you charge the rifle some of your powder contacts this moisture. This will definetly affect your groups as the velocity will be lower than normal.
When shooting for accuracy or in a match I only clean after the 3rd shot. Then again after the last so as to start out with a clean barrel.


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## Rainmaker (Oct 3, 2016)

Darkhorse said:


> You shouldn't have to fully  clean the barrel each shot, the labor and trouble far outweigh the benefits. However you can swab the barrel with a damp, not wet but just damp, patch followed by a dry patch.
> Your rifle has a patent breech which means a normal jag and patch won't reach the bottom. If you clean with a really wet patch moisture has been known to migrate to the bottom of your breech. When you charge the rifle some of your powder contacts this moisture. This will definetly affect your groups as the velocity will be lower than normal.
> When shooting for accuracy or in a match I only clean after the 3rd shot. Then again after the last so as to start out with a clean barrel.



Darkhorse, 

So how am I supposed to clean the very end of that barrel? You're exactly right about it holding moisture. 

My cleaning routine between shots was 7 or so wet patches (50/50 denatured alcohol and Windex), and then a bunch of dry patches. This kept the barrel very clean. I would then fire one cap to clear out any moisture (supposedly). 

I would wait a few minutes before discharging the cap. However, about 3 times during my shooting session my charge didn't go off. I guess due to moisture. I would then have to unscrew the nipple, and put just a pinch of powder in the snail and then it would fire. 

Aggravating to say the least!

Also, those Great Plains bullets left lead in my barrel. I have cleaned most of it out with patches and Hoppes #9 by letting it sit for 10 minutes or so, but some remains. 

What's the best way to get it completely out? 

Thanks


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## Darkhorse (Oct 4, 2016)

Rainmaker, I wouldn't worry about cleaning the end of the chamber while you are shooting, even if dirty it should have no effect on your accuracy.
I haven't seen a TC Hawken manual in years but they used to recommend removing the barrel at days end and immersing the breech in a bucket of water, then cleaning it all by pumping water through it with patch and rod. That action should by itself clean most of the fouling from the end of the chamber.
I made a simple worm by brazing a stiff wire to a 10-32 screw. The diameter was slightly smaller than the end of the chamber. I could drop a patch down the barrel then turn the RR and the worm would spin the patch.
My cleaning routine was and still is, wetting a patch with water or spit, then wringing the excess water from it before running it down the barrel a few strokes. Then 2 dry patches and that's it. By wringing all the excess water from the patch there won't be enough to leave moisture down the barrel.
I see you are using alcohol and windex to clean? Do you know that there is nothing better to clean black powder residue than plain old water? Or spit? Water breaks that residue right down better than anything you can buy or mix. Some of the top match shooters today still use only spit as a patch lube.
Instead of using 7 or so wet patches between shots try just one after 2 or 3 shots. Really, the rifle doesn't need cleaning until the ball starts getting hard to seat. That's the indicator the barrel needs a quick clean. Your rifle will tell you what's best for it. I would continue to pop off a cap or 2 after cleaning. Hold the end of barrel next to a weed or grass and when you pop off that cap the grass or weed should move. If it doesn't then something is clogged up and the rifle probably won't fire if you tried it. Find the problem before shooting again. Pipe cleaners can work wonders here.
I can't help much with the leading problem as I've never had a ML barrel to lead up. I've only shot patch and ball in all my rifles and the patch prevents leading. I would look for a solvent formulated to remove lead such as Hoppe's Elite Bore Gel. If you have some Hopp'es #9 you could saturate a patch and run it through the barrel a few times then let it sit 30 minutes to an hour and then clean the barrel again to judge the affect.
The recoil generated from those 385 gr. bullets could create a flinch. Personally, I would keep trying to find a round ball and patch load that shoots good.


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## Rainmaker (Oct 5, 2016)

Darkhorse,

Thanks again for the advice. After a shooting session I do clean it with hot water and Dawn dish soap in the bucket. I flush it as you describe with the jag and a wet patch flushing the water up and into the barrel. It does get it very clean. 

I never thought of just using water to swab the barrel during a shooting session. I'm just going on what others say regarding the alcohol and windex. I'll give water a try there as well. 

I will keep after the roundball search. Using 3F and 80 to 90 grains it was burning through my patches, and accuracy wasn't what I expected. 

I'd like to find an accurate roundball load for it though. What's the point in hunting with a traditional muzzleloader if I can't shoot a roundball?  For this season though it's going to have to be the powerbelts.

Thank you!


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## Darkhorse (Oct 6, 2016)

Rainmaker, I'm not sure what caliber your rifle is, I am assuming it is a .54 but the same advice will work with all calibers.
Get your hands on some real 100% cotton pillow ticking. Go to a fabric store with your calipers or micrometer, if you have a set, and measure the ticking. Don't stop when you feel the fabric but crush it down. The crush measurement is what  your after. It should measure around .0175 or .018 and it should have a dense weave.
Buy a half yard or so, take it home and wash it in the washing machine at least once, twice doesn't hurt, to remove the factory sizing. After washing you will notice it's softer and easier to handle. If it works good for you go back to the same store and buy several yards.
Now get some .530 round balls. Lube the material. Plain old crisco will work fine, rub the grease into the side with the blue printed stripes. Always do it the same way as consistency equals accuracy.
Now shoot a few of this combination and pick up your patches and look at them. If any are torn or burned through then your rifle has some sharp areas somewhere down the barrel. If so just keep shooting. After 100 rounds or so your barrel should be a lot smoother.
I see you want to use 3fg? Start with 40 to 50 grains of 3fg to get things worked out. My target load is 1/2 of my hunting load. Get it worked out at the lower charge before trying it at 80 grains.
This is exactly the advice given to me back in 1976 when I started out knowing absolutely nothing and it is still good advice today.


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## NCHillbilly (Oct 6, 2016)

Rainmaker said:


> Darkhorse,
> 
> Thanks again for the advice. After a shooting session I do clean it with hot water and Dawn dish soap in the bucket. I flush it as you describe with the jag and a wet patch flushing the water up and into the barrel. It does get it very clean.
> 
> ...



I have one Hawken that doesn't like roundballs, but it shoots solid lead conicals great, and they are very effective on deer. I didn't have much luck with the Great Plains bullets, either, but I like the 350 grain T/C Maxi-hunters. I get good accuracy with them. I don't care for the Powerbelts or other part-plastic bullets myself. Bore-sized lead conical bullets are just as old and "traditional" as percussion muzzleloaders, or older. You don't have to fool with patches, and they drop a deer like the hammer of Thor.


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## Rainmaker (Oct 6, 2016)

Darkhorse,

It's a .50 caliber TC Hawken that I have had about 25 years. Bought the kit and assembled it. Haven't really shot it much until recently. 

NCHillBilly, You're right about the conicals. I'd just like to kill a deer with a PRB if I can get it to shoot. 

I would like to find an all-lead conical that it likes, and then buy a mold. I have about 300 pounds of lead that I could make bullets from.


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## Roadking65 (Oct 12, 2016)

Rainmaker I would try the load I found that worked for me. Your gun is prob a carbon copy like my Hawken. 1:48 twist. I was having terrible accuracy with many different loads. I finally tried .495 round ball ammo with a low load of 70 grains of loose black diamond ffg. I am using pre lubed yellow patches bought at either bass pro or Academy, so I don't really know the thickness before lubing.
Previously I tried power belts + pellets. .490 PRB's and 100 gr of Black Horn 209. Gun would not shoot a group to save its behind.
As soon as I fed it the .495's I aquired from SASS249 the gun now shoots figure 8's all inside of the 10 ring at 50/75 yards.

Good Luck M8!


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